# Sakura vs Sasuke (VotE)



## Fragile (Feb 2, 2013)

Location: VOTE

Distance: 30 meters

Knowledge: Manga

Mindset: IC

Restrictions: Sleeping Bombs

This is Part 2 Sakura by the way.


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## Seiji (Feb 2, 2013)

Sharingan can see chakra so once Sauce sees Sakura focusing her chakra on her fists, common sense dictates that Sauce would dodge rather than block. And three tomoe precognition means she ain't landin' a hit on him. Once Juin comes out, Sakura dies. He tanks any of her blunt punches and an empowered chidori will end this.


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## Ersa (Feb 2, 2013)

Sakura has a 3 in speed at the start of Part II, not much has changed then (getting hit by rocks from Juubi/Karui blitzing her). Her evasive skills were hyped in the Sasori fight but now we have rocks hitting her so I'm pretty sure Kishi decided to retcon that. 

Sasuke has a 3.5 in speed at the VoTE, add on 3 tomoe sharingan precognition (see the KN0 Naruto fight at VoTE) and CS2 and he is a lot faster. Granted Sasori has a 4.5 in speed and she kept up with him reasonably well with Chiyo's help.

Sakura lacks knowledge on CS2, Sasuke flies up and shoots some CS-boosted Katons which she dodges then he should be able to win with Kuroi Chidori due to his speed advantage. I think the CS2 wings can handle one or two of Sakura's punches judging from them saving his ass from Deidara's C2. If Sakura lands a hit on Sasuke himself then he dies instantly.

CS2 Sasuke, high difficulty.


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## raizen28 (Feb 2, 2013)

With Manga knowledge Sasuke should take this. Im gonna assume this part 1 sasuke knows her str ength.

Basically this is like a lower tier Hebi Sasuke vs. Tsunade


Sasuke Still has the Edge in Taijutsu or CQC in general.  Sakura has sttength but Can be handily evaded with Sasuke's Speed and Help of Sharingan.

Sasuke can take her down with his lethalty in CQC than regular taijutsu, A Chidori to the Chest or Heart should finish or weaken ger enough for where she can momentarily defend herself which is when Sasuke can really go in for the Kill.


CS2 gives Sasuke Some leverage of Flight if he plans using it and Kuro Chidori should take her out as well


I say Sasuke eventually wins


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## Fragile (Feb 2, 2013)

.... 

Maybe I should restrict Sasuke's level 2 cursed seal?


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## katanalauncher (Feb 2, 2013)

Base sasuke owns low difficulty.
CS2 absolutely decimates, I consider him and KN1 Naruto to be low kage level.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2013)

> Knowledge: Manga



So Sasuke doesn't know about super strength, because he doesn't know she trained with Tsunade or any other things that haven't happened yet.  Which means Sasuke will go for a taijutsu skirmish, and that will probably involve blocking one of her attacks, or getting one of his attacks batted away, since her speed and taijutsu are good enough to match him well enough for that to take place.  Then Sasuke....dies?  He doesn't have the durability to take even a glancing blow from her, and any hit will shatter his arms, his guard, and the him that is past his guard.  

No CS1, no CS2, no nothing after that.  It's over, and I'm not giving VotE Sasuke more credit than Kakashi.


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## katanalauncher (Feb 2, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> So Sasuke doesn't know about super strength, because he doesn't know she trained with Tsunade or any other things that haven't happened yet.  Which means Sasuke will go for a taijutsu skirmish, and that will probably involve blocking one of her attacks, or getting one of his attacks batted away, since her speed and taijutsu are good enough to match him well enough for that to take place.  Then Sasuke....dies?  He doesn't have the durability to take even a glancing blow from her, and any hit will shatter his arms, his guard, and the him that is past his guard.
> 
> No CS1, no CS2, no nothing after that.  It's over, and I'm not giving VotE Sasuke more credit than Kakashi.


Really?
Base sasuke was holding off KN0 Naruto, who is many times fasters than Sakura and a lot stronger too. A punch from KN0 Naruto could've easily killed Sasuke if it landed, and Sakura can hit him neither.
Not to mention Sasuke also have katon and chidori, he's also really skilled on mid ranged battles with shurikens.

TD;DR: Sasuke is faster and more skilled that Sakura, Sakura can't hit him due to sharingan, Sakura gets destroyed.


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## Triggenism (Feb 2, 2013)

yeah Sasuke stomps here, especially with Cursed Seal involved.


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## PDQ (Feb 2, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> I consider him and KN1 Naruto to be low kage level.


And that's your fundamental error.  Low jounin maybe.  Low kage is a joke.



katanalauncher said:


> KN0 Naruto, who is many times fasters than Sakura and a lot stronger too.


Faster? Yes.
Stronger? No.  Not even close.
KN0 Naruto isn't skilled in Taijutsu though.  To deal with prediction, you need skill more than speed because you have to read how your opponent is counterattacking your moves and counterattack him.

They're entirely different beasts.  One is trained by a CQC using Kage to read attacks, the other relies on brute force.  They're good in their own way in different scenarios.  For ones where you can't blitz them, reading attacks is more important.


> A punch from KN0 Naruto could've easily killed Sasuke if it landed


"*If* it landed"?
fist first
Still alive.
fist first
Half a dozen hits.  Still alive.
Hell even KN1 didn't kill him when it hit:
fist first
fist first
fist first

Sakura would have a hard time hitting Sasuke, but there's no way he's dodging ALL of her attacks.


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## Shinryu (Feb 2, 2013)

Sakura killed Pein's centipede with a single punch so if she hits him once hes dead


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## PDQ (Feb 2, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Sakura has a 3 in speed at the start of Part II
> Sasuke has a 3.5 in speed at the VoTE



Speed stats don't amount to much.  Tsunade's blitzed Shizune with a 3.5 in speed vs. a 4 in speed.

I doubt they include speed enhancing ninjutsu like Shunshin.



> Her evasive skills were hyped in the Sasori fight but now we have rocks hitting her so I'm pretty sure Kishi decided to retcon that.


Given she was in midair and doesn't have Kage Bunshin like Naruto, she can't change directions to dodge.


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## katanalauncher (Feb 2, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Faster? Yes.
> Stronger? No.  Not even close.
> KN0 Naruto isn't skilled in Taijutsu though.  To deal with prediction, you need skill more than speed because you have to read how your opponent is counterattacking your moves and counterattack him.
> 
> ...



lol sorry my part 1 knowledge is a bit rusty.
I still think Naruto's strike is stronger though.
He simply have too much raw power compared to Sakura, a simple chakura shout is able to destroy Sasuke's koton, and his strike was able to damage Neji inside kaiten


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## Ersa (Feb 2, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Speed stats don't amount to much.  Tsunade's blitzed Shizune with a 3.5 in speed vs. a 4 in speed.
> 
> I doubt they include speed enhancing ninjutsu like Shunshin.
> 
> ...


Except Sakura has not shown Shunshin and yes they amount to something because the author wrote them down. Kabuto with a 3.5 was relatively even with Tsunade, for the most part they are fairly accurate. Since there is no correlation between VoTE Sasuke and Sakura in Part II, DB stats are better then oh I think Sakura can get hit by rocks so she can avoid Sasuke's attacks 

Except it doesn't matter that she doesn't have KB, Darui avoided the rocks. Tsunade could've too. Not to mention Karui of all people pretty much blitzed her. As far as I'm concerned Sasuke will see chakra building up in her hand with his Sharingan and opt not to block but dodge. He knows sending chakra to the feet grants speed so he'll know sending chakra to the arm probably makes her punches faster/stronger.

CS2 Sasuke w/ Sharingan is faster, he just needs some Katons as distractions. Kuroi Chidori ruins her day. Unless you believe Sakura can punch Chidori away


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## PDQ (Feb 2, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> lol sorry my part 1 knowledge is a bit rusty.
> I still think Naruto's strike is stronger though.
> He simply have too much raw power compared to Sakura, a simple chakura shout is able to destroy Sasuke's koton, and his strike was able to damage Neji inside kaiten


Neither of those matches up to this:
facing



Rasant said:


> Except Sakura has not shown Shunshin


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If that's not Shunshin, then whatever the hell that is called isn't included in their speed.  Especially since it's based off the same technique as enhancing strength(concentrating chakra in a body part with perfect timing/chakra control), which also isn't counted towards their stats.  You can tell the latter because Sakura's post skip strength stat is a 3.  Naruto and Kakashi have a 3.5 and this is their reaction to it:
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As a side note, the fact that she's enhanced her chakra control massively for explosive strength, means she should be able to explode off the ground _even faster_


> and yes they amount to something because the author wrote them down.


Or the editors/assistants did.  It's a databook, not the manga.  It's halfway to an expanded universe style approved novel.

Hell, judging from the fact that by all accounts, Hayate should've been 2 years old (based on relative age to Kakashi according to the databook) when he was in the Chuunin exam from the recent manga, shows a stunning lack of judgment from his teachers(especially since he didn't get promoted until he was 13).


> Kabuto with a 3.5 was relatively even with Tsunade, for the most part they are fairly accurate.


An example where it's not completely unbelievable doesn't make the system any less flawed.  People are more often than not relatively even no matter what their stats are.

Hell, Ino had a 2.5 and Sakura a 1 in part 1(and .5 better in taijutsu as well) when they fought in the Chuunin exam yet they were landing blows exactly evenly.
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> Except it doesn't matter that she doesn't have KB, Darui avoided the rocks.


"Avoided"?  Do you have *any* evidence that he actually *moved out of the way* of _a single rock_ rather than simply not having any rocks come at him?


> Not to mention Karui of all people pretty much blitzed her.


Karui's never touched her.  Omoi kicked her, but only because she was focusing on attacking Karui since Sai was going after Omoi, but Omoi dodged him and jumped over, attacking Sakura when she wasn't paying attention to him.
Link removed
That's not the same as blitzing.  Blitzing requires your opponent actually be looking at you and you can't react.  Attacking from someone's blindspot is just a sneak attack.

Also, Omoi is fast enough to block Naruto's attack as well
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The only person Karui hit was Naruto:
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## Bonly (Feb 2, 2013)

Sasuke wins this.

Sasuke is faster then Sakura be it feats or DB stats and thanks to the Sharingan he has the edge in CQC. Sasuke has ranged attacks unlike Sakura so he also has an edge in the range game. Add in the increase in power from the CS level 1+2 as well as the chakra increase and the advantages leads me to favor Sasuke more times then not. Although she can finish him with one hit but with the Sharingan as well as having more stamina furthers my favor.



Rasant said:


> Except Sakura has not shown Shunshin



Sakura did a Shunshin here.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> So Sasuke doesn't know about super strength, because he doesn't know she trained with Tsunade or any other things that haven't happened yet.  Which means Sasuke will go for a taijutsu skirmish, and that will probably involve blocking one of her attacks, or getting one of his attacks batted away, since her speed and taijutsu are good enough to match him well enough for that to take place.  Then Sasuke....dies?  He doesn't have the durability to take even a glancing blow from her, and any hit will shatter his arms, his guard, and the him that is past his guard.
> 
> No CS1, no CS2, no nothing after that.  It's over, and I'm not giving VotE Sasuke more credit than Kakashi.



Sasuke took multiple blows from KN0, a strength _demon_ himself, and was perfectly fine afterwards. Hell, he was punched square in the jaw by KN1 & he wasn't even _hurt_. KN1 is _easily_ on Sakura's strength tier. A glancing blow is not shattering Sasuke's bones.

That's if she manages to hit him. Sakura may be more skilled than VOTE Naruto, but she _massively_ slower than KN0, whom Sasuke took to school. Sakura's moves are certainly not advanced enough to confuse the Sharingan.


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## Shinryu (Feb 3, 2013)

stop ignoring my fucking post


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

> Really?
> Base sasuke was holding off KN0 Naruto, who is many times fasters than Sakura and a lot stronger too.



Sasuke was like, "Imma gonna block you!"    "Wadoosh!"

Only Sakura hits like this.  She also blew apart Hiruko, which Chiyo stated can't be broken with conventional attacks.


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## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

The problem with Chidori is that we've seen it can be slightly redirected(given Sakura's medical knowledge, she can move it in the direction that would be most survivable), while leaving your arm stuck in the person, allowing them to grab you, which makes it easy to kill him with an unavoidable punch.  Sakura can also stop the bleeding and heal herself while it's in her.  So the result of that would be Sasuke's death and Sakura injured but healing herself.


Bonly said:


> Sasuke has ranged attacks unlike Sakura so he also has an edge in the range game.


An edge that's virtually pointless.  Shuriken/kunai/katon don't do any damage that can't be easily healed.


> Add in the increase in power from the CS level 1+2 as well as the chakra increase and the advantages leads me to favor Sasuke more times then not.


The CS2 makes it about an even match due to the power increase.



Rocky said:


> Sasuke took multiple blows from KN0, a strength _demon_ himself, and was perfectly fine afterwards.


KN0 punches large summon, summon is perfectly fine afterwards
Sakura punches large summon, summon dies.


> Sakura's moves are certainly not advanced enough to confuse the Sharingan.


No one said anything about confusing the Sharingan.  The Sharingan isn't Sasuke's weakness, it's his body.  Sasuke can see the attack and counter.  The problem is that Sasuke's counter can be seen and countered as well.  He doesn't have instantaneous movements, the moment he starts moving to attack, his opponent can change their attack.
punches large summon, summon dies
See at the bottom, how Sasuke puts his fist out and Naruto runs into it?  Naruto isn't trained to avoid it, Sakura is.  Even if you intend to run in that direction, if you see your opponent moving to attack you, you can change moves as well.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> An edge that's virtually pointless.  Shuriken/kunai/katon don't do any damage that can't be easily healed.



That's actually quite comical. Sakura doesn't possess Byakugo or Creation Rebirth. She isn't healing from being burned alive.


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## wooly Eullerex (Feb 3, 2013)

Curse seal_2 sasuke would survive any strike that sakura can dish...but she aint gon hit'em now is she 

Sakura cant self-heal in a 1 on 1 match where she is the slower.

Sauce wins.


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## Bonly (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> An edge that's virtually pointless.  Shuriken/kunai/katon don't do any damage that can't be easily healed.
> 
> The CS2 makes it about an even match due to the power increase.



Not pointless. If she has to stop to heal he can keep attacking forcing her to stop or any another hit head on. Eventually she'll go down or stop healing and be fucked up for the rest of the match. Also im not sure if she gets hit by a Katon that she'll be alive and well enough to heal completely.

Not really. Sasuke already outclasses Sakura in most area's in base. Adding in the higher levels won't make it an even match.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke took multiple blows from KN0, a strength _demon_ himself, and was perfectly fine afterwards. Hell, he was punched square in the jaw by KN1 & he wasn't even _hurt_. KN1 is _easily_ on Sakura's strength tier. A glancing blow is not shattering Sasuke's bones.
> 
> That's if she manages to hit him. Sakura may be more skilled than VOTE Naruto, but she _massively_ slower than KN0, whom Sasuke took to school. Sakura's moves are certainly not advanced enough to confuse the Sharingan.



The snake was just fine afterward.  Pain's centipede was dead.  They do both have super strength, but they're on different levels.

Furthermore, Sasuke was saved because he went cursed mark level one, which modifies the body with knock off natural energy.  Had Sasuke not gone CS, he would have died from that.  He seems to agree with that game over scenerio, because he had to calm down his panic attack.  In the scenerio I outlined, where Sasuke attempts to block in base, he will die.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Not pointless. If she has to stop to heal he can keep attacking forcing her to stop or any another hit head on. Eventually she'll go down or stop healing and be fucked up for the rest of the match. Also im not sure if she gets hit by a Katon that she'll be alive and well enough to heal completely.
> 
> Not really. Sasuke already outclasses Sakura in most area's in base. Adding in the higher levels won't make it an even match.



Sakura can fight and heal at the same time.

Aside from that, she will dodge katons.  She's dodged , and common consensus is that Itachi's katons are far better at everything that P1 Sasuke's, even amped by curse seal.  To clarify, Itachi's katon tore up the ground, and was the hugest one to date at the time of showing.


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## Krippy (Feb 3, 2013)

Why do people assume Sasuke will try and block her punches as if she is too fast for him to dodge outright? 

Sasuke will only try to do that with his CS2 wings, which will not come out until the end of the fight as he cant maintain the form for very long and by that time Sakura should be quite exhausted and I see no reason for him to block such as obvious and linear attack

in base and in CS1 he will predict her attacks and dodge/counterstrike her with Chidori

he should win with moderate difficulty


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The snake was just fine afterward.  Pain's centipede was dead.  They do both have super strength, but they're on different levels.



I'm aware Sakura is more powerful than KN0. However, Sasuke took multiple blows, and was fine. Haku, for example, was nearly knocked out by one. I don't think you're giving the Sauce credit for his durability.



> Furthermore, Sasuke was saved because he went cursed mark level one, which modifies the body with knock off natural energy.  Had Sasuke not gone CS, he would have died from that.  He seems to agree with that game over scenerio, because he had to calm down his panic attack.  In the scenerio I outlined, where Sasuke attempts to block in base, he will die.



That's a gross overestimation of CS2 durability. SRA BM Choji killed CS2 Jirobo with a _single_ punch. I've never really viewed BM Choji in his human-sized form to be that much stronger than KN1, if at all. The damage to the ground doesn't suggest he's much stronger. If Choji & KN1 are close in strength, Naruto's punch should have _at least_ hurt Sasuke.


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## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Not pointless. If she has to stop to heal he can keep attacking forcing her to stop or any another hit head on. Eventually she'll go down or stop healing and be fucked up for the rest of the match.


She won't stop to heal, it just means she can heal after she wins.  None of those do enough damage to slow down a person.

She can also heal while her hands aren't even touching the wound, such as while holding a sword


Rocky said:


> That's actually quite comical. Sakura doesn't possess Byakugo or Creation Rebirth. She isn't healing from being burned alive.


It's quite comical you think a C-rank katon can burn someone alive.

Asuma tanked his own curse-reflected B-rank Katon with minor burns on his arm.  Keep in mind Hidan intentionally took the full brunt of that attack due to the curse.  No healing.  Not burnt alive.

Tsunade punches aside Katons, only has minor burns on her arms even before healing.


> I'm aware Sakura is more powerful than KN0. However, Sasuke took multiple blows, and was fine.


Multiple blows from an attack that can't hurt a large summon is worlds apart from a single blow that can kill a large summon.  It's meaningless counting how many there are unless they're actually effective.  He could probably tank 1000 punchs from Konohamaru, doesn't mean he'd survive Sakura's.


> Haku, for example, was nearly knocked out by one. I don't think you're giving the Sauce credit for his durability.


All you've proven is that Sasuke has durability compared to Haku, not that he can survive Sakura's punch.  Short of Haku surviving Sakura's punch, that comparison means nothing.


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## Bonly (Feb 3, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sakura can fight and heal at the same time.



And she did that while standing still. Can you show me scan when she did that on the move?



> Aside from that, she will dodge katons.  She's dodged , and common consensus is that Itachi's katons are far better at everything that P1 Sasuke's, even amped by curse seal.  To clarify, Itachi's katon tore up the ground, and was the hugest one to date at the time of showing.



Sure she could dodge it but she can't dodge forever and with Sasuke having better stamina, its likely that he can hit her as time goes on in the match.


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## Seiji (Feb 3, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Why do people assume Sasuke will try and block her punches as if she is too fast for him to dodge outright?



Yeah. Or why would he block her punches if he can see a lotta chakra focused on his opponent's fists with his Sharingan?  Sauce might be arrogant sometimes, but he doesn't lack common sense.


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## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Sure she could dodge it but she can't dodge forever and with Sasuke having better stamina, its likely that he can hit her as time goes on in the match.


In character, I don't think a single character in this entire manga has used the same katon twice in a single fight.


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## Bonly (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> In character, I don't think a single character in this entire manga has used the same katon twice in a single fight.



Sasuke has more then one Katon I believe.


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## Seiji (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> In character, I don't think a single character in this entire manga has used the same katon twice in a single fight.



Both Sasuke and Itachi used Katon: Gokyaku twice in their battle.

fight and heal at the same time.
fight and heal at the same time.
fight and heal at the same time.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> It's quite comical you think a C-rank katon can burn someone alive.



I'd just like you to know that fire burns things, human flesh burns, clothes burn, and Sakura & her clothes are not magical fire-proof beings.


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## wooly Eullerex (Feb 3, 2013)

did sasuke use the slight-of-hand, ''flaming wire trap'' tactic at VoTE as well?

and ''housenka'' is a nasty jutsu also...


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## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Sasuke has more then one Katon I believe.


He has 3
Ryūka no Jutsu 
Hōsenka no Jutsu 
Gōkakyū no Jutsu 

The first two won't do anything to anyone.



Rocky said:


> SRA BM Choji killed CS2 Jirobo with a _single_ punch. I've never really viewed BM Choji in his human-sized form to be that much stronger than KN1, if at all. The damage to the ground doesn't suggest he's much stronger. If Choji & KN1 are close in strength, Naruto's punch should have _at least_ hurt Sasuke.


That's a gross underestimation of BM Chouji's strength.

BM Chouji is 100x stronger than normal.

He casually stopped with one arm, outstretched, a punch from behind, from a guy who could lift this over his head with one arm.  He stopped that with his *right* hand.
A page earlier, he had concentrated all his chakra to his *left* hand.

You really want to say KN1 is close to *that* in strength?



Rocky said:


> I'd just like you to know that fire burns things, human flesh burns, clothes burn, and Sakura & her clothes are not magical fire-proof beings.



Did I say it wouldn't burn her?  I said it wouldn't _burn her alive_.
There's a difference between burning someone and _burning them alive_.  The latter suggests they'd *die* from the burning.  People survive being burnt all the time.
A match can burn you, but it won't burn you alive.  A C-rank jutsu may burn you, but it's not going to burn you alive when a B-rank katon only lightly burnt Asuma's arm despite being hit with the full force of it.

Even friggin' Amaterasu has been survived at least twice in this manga(Karin and a fodder samurai).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

> That's a gross overestimation of CS2 durability. SRA BM Choji killed CS2 Jirobo with a single punch. I've never really viewed BM Choji in his human-sized form to be that much stronger than KN1, if at all. The damage to the ground doesn't suggest he's much stronger. If Choji & KN1 are close in strength, Naruto's punch should have at least hurt Sasuke.



I can see how you would reach that conclusion with that.  But to think that KN1 and BM Chouji are on the same strength tier is sort of a mistake.  

CS2 durabilty let Jirobu going from getting layed out  [1]by green pill Chouji, to one handing the ginormitron.  And he can juggle him, as if he'd taken no damage.    Butterfly Chouji stopped that amount of sheer power with his offhand (He puts all his chakra in his left and then catches Jirobu's attack with his right.), and then one punch manned Jirobu.  So Chouji is tiers and tiers stronger than Sakura, and KN1.  Chouji's off elbow is kind of more akin to Naruto's strength, and CS2 allowing Jirobu to tank it is more of a comparable feat than his death punch.


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## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

I'll be arguing for Sasuke Uchiha's victory.

Given Sasuke's extraordinary skills even before gaining Stage 3 Sharingan and the Curse Seal itself, I'm leaning towards him heavily here, being one of the most versatile shinobi in the manga. 

Sharingan precognition is the given here, as well as his speed. Manga knowledge here means that Sasuke would understand that Sakura has incredible chakra control, greater than even himself, confirmed by Kakashi long ago. However, Sharingan sees chakra no matter how small it might be (Fight with Deidara), and if its gathered to her fists Sasuke will obviously understand that taking a blow from her is not something he will want to gamble on. While Sasuke's durability is EXCELLENT, as shown when taking on KN0 Naruto and fighting a losing battle (until the turnover), he has shown enough capability to counter-attack after a surprise and quickly as well. Sakura going airborne equals considerable full-body damage via katons, which may prove too great a wound to easily fight through.

Orochimaru had recognized his talent only when he had stood his ground against him, and as we can see this Sasuke is not the type to toy with considerable threats. Sasuke reads movements and goes for the critical attack, not wasting any time whatsoever.

"To read all the places I could run and attack where I can't see ..." - Orochimaru

Recognized by even a Sannin so _early_ in the series, this led him to being chosen for the Curse Seal's power which increases his lethality and attributes to make him a considerable danger for Sakura. Sakura IC will know of much of his moveset, granted, but not of CS2, a potential trump card should he be pushed to it. Personally, I don't think he would be. Chakra pool confirmed larger, capability to dodge close range jutsu and strike at an opponent's blind spot.  Add onto this the intimidation factor that comes from the feel of his chakra when using even the seal as a novice, Neji even recognized his intervention into the battle would be unnecessary by Sasuke's power alone.

CS2's wing is displayed to endure an attack from someone physically stronger and faster than himself, and Stage Three Sharingan allowing Sasuke to keep up with his superior opponent over Stage Two seals his clear advantage over Sakura. If by any means he is pressured into unleashing CS2, I'm certain he can sacrifice a wing to continue battling. 

So while Sakura is a potentially dangerous opponent, Sasuke's Kekkei Genkai, intelligence, jutsu, and natural talent should allow him to prevail over Sakura. Maybe not in a minute, maybe not even in five minutes, but he can keep going a lot more than she can. He has no heavy disadvantage in any area to her other than raw physical strength, which won't win the match for her with Sasuke's advantages. By the time he discovers she can use medical ninjutsu, and that's even if he allows her the opportunity to heal, he won't make the same mistake twice.

Victor - *PTS Sasuke Uchiha, Low-Mid Difficulty*.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Did I say it wouldn't burn her?  I said it wouldn't _burn her alive_.
> There's a difference between burning someone and _burning them alive_.  The latter suggests they'd *die* from the burning.  People survive being burnt all the time.
> A match can burn you, but it won't burn you alive.  A C-rank jutsu may burn you, but it's not going to burn you alive when a B-rank katon only lightly burnt Asuma's arm despite being hit with the full force of it.
> 
> Even friggin' Amaterasu has been survived at least twice in this manga(Karin and a fodder samurai).



How cute. Listen, being engulfed in a giant ball of fire is fatal, regardless of rank. Does this really require an explanation? Ever heard of this weapon soldiers use called the flamethrower?

The Rank thing is irrelevant to the lethality of attacks. Shinobi can kill each with Kunai attacks, which are learned in the Academy.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> He has 3
> Ryūka no Jutsu
> Hōsenka no Jutsu
> Gōkakyū no Jutsu
> ...



If Sakura gets hit by the first two why would it do nothing to her?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

> Even friggin' Amaterasu has been survived at least twice in this manga(Karin and a fodder samurai).



Ameterasu was tanked by CS2.  Which is also a case of extreme cursed mark durability boost, or evidence that katons are completely useless.  Neither outcome bodes well for Sasuke.

Also, Sasuke's katon that super heat the atmosphere was tanked by Itachi's arm.  Katons are pretty useless.  If Sasuke shot his fireball, which was countered by rasengan's...spinning? Sakura would probably dive through it and punch him.

Upon further inspection, Itachi could still use that arm.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ameterasu was tanked by CS2.  Which is also a case of extreme cursed mark durability boost, or evidence that katons are completely useless.  Neither outcome bodes well for Sasuke.



Sasuke had a fireproof wing that Amaterasu burnt through, and Sasuke used Oral Rebirth to survive it, despite Itachi turning Amaterasu off. That is not tanking in any way.



> Also, Sasuke's katon that super heat the atmosphere was tanked by Itachi's arm.  Katons are pretty useless.  If Sasuke shot his fireball, which was countered by rasengan's...spinning? Sakura would probably dive through it and punch him.



Itachi's arm got severely burnt unless I'm missing something. I mean, in what case does itachi being able to use his arm mean Sakura bushes off fireballs? Obito took a Rasengan to the arm and was fine. Should we assume Sakura can eat Naruto's spinning Charka orbs for breakfast now?

Sakura isn't diving through fire. That's absolutely ridiculous. You've been near fire, I assume?


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## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

How is Sasuke falling to the ground and escaping below into the hideout again a CS2 tank feat exactly? Sasuke's plan was to be struck again and use Oral Rebirth. 

CS2 appears to be gone here after Itachi let the flames run for a moment or two.


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## Seiji (Feb 3, 2013)

Rocky's right. Rank doesn't equate to power. Kakuzu's B rank raiton Gian required 2 S rank Raikiri to block and it still almost fried Kakashi's hands. But who cares about Katons when Chidori can do the job. And Sauce landing a successful Chidori first is more plausible than Sakura landing a punch before Sauce can.


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## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> How cute. Listen, being engulfed in a giant ball of fire is fatal, regardless of rank. Does this really require an explanation?


No, it doesn't need an explanation, it needs a reality check: Being engulfed in a giant ball of fire is not always fatal in this manga



> Ever heard of this weapon soldiers use called the flamethrower?


Ever heard of a thing authors write called "fiction"?  Shinobi in this manga aren't as weak as normal humans.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

> Sasuke had a fireproof wing that Amaterasu burnt through, and Sasuke used Oral Rebirth to survive it, despite Itachi turning Amaterasu off. That is not tanking in any way.



What about when it tanked Deidara's bombs, and Itachi's katon?  Being fireproof does not instantly entail being explosion proof, and any of those boosts show that CS gives you a pretty good durability boost.  



> How is Sasuke falling to the ground and escaping below into the hideout again a CS2 tank feat exactly?



It is when Ameterasu instantly burnt through the esophagus of a frog that spits fire through it's throat.  So it not being instantly incinerated is again, either a really good durability feat, or proof that even the best katons are pretty sucky vs people.  Pick one.  I'm sure that if Saukura can maintain her perfect chakra control with a sword in her stomach, she can do it while being burnt.


----------



## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

Itachi was desperate to escape and we aren't certain how thick that esophagus really was. An internal organ shouldn't equal an external defense in durability and flammability. Not to mention Itachi was holding back to 'preserve the eyes', not in a desperate attempt to kill Sasuke.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> No, it doesn't need an explanation, it needs a reality check: Being engulfed in a giant ball of fire is not always fatal in this manga
> 
> 
> Ever heard of a thing authors write called "fiction"?  Shinobi in this manga aren't as weak as normal humans.



Asuma took that giant fireball and then proceeded to blitz Hidan.  I doubt he was happy to get burned, but it didn't prevent him from fighting.


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## Art Master (Feb 3, 2013)

Voted for Sakura for the luls as I thought no one else would.  Sasuke is the obvious winner. He has Katons to distract Sakura then Chidori for follow up. She dies. Cs wings also tanks her punches that is if she can even land a punch.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> No, it doesn't need an explanation, it needs a reality check: Being engulfed in a giant ball of fire is not always fatal in this manga



Unless we're applying durability feats of Characters to others, I don't really care what Hidan did. It's not even the same Jutsu. The "C Rank Katon" is hot enough to burn Samehada.



> Ever heard of a thing authors write called "fiction"?  Shinobi in this manga aren't as weak as normal humans.



And Katon isn't as weak as a normal flamethrower. Shinobi are still mortal and can be killed by things that would kill humans, such as knives.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> What about when it tanked Deidara's bombs, and Itachi's katon?  Being fireproof does not instantly entail being explosion proof, and any of those boosts show that CS gives you a pretty good durability boost.



I know CS2 increases durability.

My original point was than CS1 doesn't increase durability to the point where fatal attacks before non-damaging.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

SoleAccord said:


> Itachi was desperate to escape and we aren't certain how thick that esophagus really was. An internal organ shouldn't equal an external defense in durability and flammability. Not to mention Itachi was holding back to 'preserve the eyes', not in a desperate attempt to kill Sasuke.



The organ was thick enough to engulf Sasuke.    And yeah, if it's the mouth of something that spits fire, it's obviously got some durability against fire.  Just like your stomach has a durability against acids that isn't shared by the rest of your organs.


----------



## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

"An internal organ shouldn't equal an external defense in durability and flammability." That still stands. Soft, sensitive tissue is still tissue no matter how thick it is, right? 

It likely engulfed Sasuke on Jiraiya's own command, as Jiraiya reassured Naruto not to worry and that it was 'his' jutsu. The stomach didn't act on its own. If you already deduced that, then my apologies.

Also confused why you say the toad has durability to flame, what makes you say that?


----------



## Herpules (Feb 3, 2013)

part 2 sakura would destroy part 1 sasuke, even with CS2.

He has to get in melee range to do anything, and Sakura will kill him if he does. His only chance would be a well placed chidori, which she can stop by just breaking the ground in front of him


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## joshhookway (Feb 3, 2013)

Sasuke chidoris sakura's head off.


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## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Unless we're applying durability feats of Characters to others, I don't really care what Hidan did.


Do you even listen to yourself or do you just like ? You said "Listen, being engulfed in a giant ball of fire is fatal"
No.  It's not.  The fact that someone survives it completely disproves your claim.  We've never seen a regular katon kill *any shinobi* in this manga before.  Or even stop one from fighting.

Funny to hear you try to claim unfair durability comparisons when you're the one bringing up flamethrowers being used on _normal_ human beings


> It's not even the same Jutsu.


No, it's even bigger and stronger.


> The "C Rank Katon" is hot enough to burn Samehada.


"Burn"?  All it did was complain about the heat.  Uncomfortably hot != burnt.  And burning != killing.


> Shinobi are still mortal and can be killed by things that would kill humans, such as knives.


Yet can survive a giant shuriken in the spine and hitting rocks so hard it leaves craters or knocked through a tree yet fight like nothing happened.

Even Sakura's survived several knives impaling her while she's fighting preskip.  And she continues fighting and without medical jutsu survives to the preliminary exams to fight Ino to a draw.


----------



## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> We've never seen a regular katon kill *any shinobi* in this manga before.  Or even stop one from fighting.



Does this Burning Ash panel count? Asuma used it and in this panel they're all dead. 

Or does this not count as a regular Katon since it started as ash?


----------



## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

SoleAccord said:


> Does this Burning Ash panel count? Asuma used it and in this panel they're all dead.


1.  Nameless fodder don't count.  They die to things even Konohamaru could tank.
2.  We don't see if those corpses are from that attack, especially since
I.  We don't see visible scorches/burn marks on their clothes
II.  It happened a chapter beforehand
III.  There's literally corpses littering the battlefield.  They could've been from countless other battles.


----------



## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

Well you said 'any shinobi' and fodder are still shinobi regardless. Burning Ash was his last attack done before his team showed up, so I assume that was the result of it. And besides that, the focus wasn't on the bodies anyway. They are either dead, or incapacitated, and the smallest panel showing where the fodder were to display they were defeated, but left no room for detail of their incapacitated/deceased body. 

I guess we're just gonna need to disagree on the matter then. Asuma was shown fighting in that area, so I wager all those corpses were done mostly by him. You seem to take advantage of the fact the focus wasn't on the dead shinobi to prove your point. An open mind helps.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Do you even listen to yourself or do you just like ? You said "Listen, being engulfed in a giant ball of fire is fatal"
> No.  It's not.  The fact that someone survives it completely disproves your claim.  We've never seen a regular katon kill *any shinobi* in this manga before.  Or even stop one from fighting.



Hidan surviving the Jutsu doesn't automatically mean anyone can. Fire is fatal, even to Shinobi. That doesn't change. Sasuke was convinced Kakashi's fire would _kill_ Naruto.

You act like since someone survived, fire suddenly becomes non-fatal. Maybe it is you who should _listen._ I never changed my original statement. Fire...is...fatal.


Obito survived Rasengan. Is Rasengan not fatal? Kisame survived Hirodua. Is that not fatal? Tsunade survived being *ripped in half*, is _that_ not fatal?



> No, it's even stronger.



Based on...?


> "Burn"?  All it did was complain about the heat.  Uncomfortably hot != burnt.  And burning != killing.



So you're saying it wasn't hurt by the fire?



> Yet can survive a giant shuriken in the spine and hitting rocks so hard it leaves craters or knocked through a tree yet fight like nothing happened.



Yes, they're extra durable, I'm well aware. That doesn't disprove my point. If Rock Lee get's stabbed in the neck by a Kunai, Rock Lee's gonna die.



> Funny to hear you try to claim unfair durability comparisons when you're the one bringing up flamethrowers being used on _normal_ human beings



I made the comparision understanding both sides were gimped. I'm well aware Shinobi have stronger bodies than normal humans. Crater-creating, Charkra infused fireballs are more powerful than flamethrowers.

Funny how you're so quick to dismiss the fodder SHINOBI, claiming they don't count, despite your original point being Shinobi (in general) are _way_ more durable than humans.


----------



## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

SoleAccord said:


> Burning Ash was his last attack done before his team showed up, so I assume that was the result of it.


The last attack _on panel_, and we don't know how long it took for the team to get up there.


> And besides that, the focus wasn't on the bodies anyway.


Exactly, they were decoration, setting ambiance, not representing actual kills.



Rocky said:


> Hidan surviving the Jutsu doesn't automatically mean anyone can. Fire is fatal, even to Shinobi. That doesn't change.
> 
> You act like since someone survived, fire suddenly becomes non-fatal. Maybe it is you who should _listen._ I never changed my original statement. Fire...is...fatal.


Ah I see, you just don't understand proper English grammar.  "Fire *is* fatal" implies anyone *will* die when exposed to it.  What you're trying to say is "Fire _can be_ fatal"/"fire is _potentially_ fatal".  That's a much weaker claim.  Rasengan is not inherently fatal, as we've seen Kabuto and Obito survive it, but it can be.  There's a world of difference between "is" and "can be".


> Based on...?


It's bigger, ranked higher, done by a Jounin instead of a genin, etc.


> So you're saying it wasn't hurt by the fire?


...no.  Hurt is not burnt.  Hurt means feeling pain, discomfort, or suffering.  Not all pain is injury.  It's much easier to hurt someone than to injure them.  You can be hurt by the heat without being burnt by the fire.  If you put your hand a few feet over a fire for a few seconds, it will hurt and you'll pull your hand away, but it's not being *burnt*.  You'll complain if someone forces you to do it, but it won't be burnt.


----------



## Art Master (Feb 3, 2013)

A Katon has never shown to kill before. Therefore, Katons can't kill. Even if a human gets entirely engulfed by it. 

Fodders getting killed by katons. But they don't count since they are fodders even if they're also humans?

Delicious logic.


----------



## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

Fodder are legitimate shinobi, they're just thrown away for the sake of plot, of making someone appear a considerable threat, because they're nameless and no one would miss them. This was an Allied Shinobi Alliance, and they are Shinobi. Just make the criteria a bit more clear next time.

My point is that Burning Ash DID hit living shinobi and likely killed or incapacitated them, and considering none of them were ANYONE Asuma cared about, he likely just sat there and let them get killed by him. Asuma, whether confirmed by scorches or not, did use Burning Ash and he did end up surrounded by bodies in the area he fought in. Asuma wasn't showing any mercy to anyone, therefore its logical to assume Burning Ash did either kill or incapacitate. 

You can't consider that to be true, not even a little?


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Ah I see, you just don't understand proper grammar.  "Fire is fatal" implies anyone will die when exposed to it.  What you're trying to say is "Fire can be fatal".  Which is practically vacuous.



I understand grammar, kid.

Bringing up semantics is wasting my time. Is being annoying a hobby for you?

If I were to say being shot in the head is fatal, are you really going to tell me that because people have survived shots to the head before, it's an empty claim? 

Hidan surviving Asuma's Katon does not mean every Shinobi in this Manga can survive any god damn Fire jutsu. What's next, Sakura can survive Rasengan simply because Obito did?


----------



## Art Master (Feb 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I understand grammar, kid.
> 
> Bringing up semantics is wasting my time. Is being annoying a hobby for you?
> 
> ...



I think it's wise to just stop arguing with him/her.


----------



## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I understand grammar, kid.


No son, you've clearly proven you don't.


> If I were to say being shot in the head is fatal, are you really going to tell me that because people have survived shots to the head before, it's an empty claim?


I'll tell you it's wrong because it is.  Once again, potential is different from certainty.  If you said cutting someone is fatal because you saw someone die from having his neck cut, it doesn't mean every paper cut in the world will kill you.


> Hidan surviving Asuma's Katon does not mean every Shinobi in this Manga can survive any god damn Fire jutsu.


Asuma didn't just survive a fire, on the verge of death, he got away with *minimal* injuries and could *easily* continue to fight.  He's not even like Obito with a regenerative Zetsu body.  He's a relatively normal shinobi with no defenses/regeneration.  There's no reason in the world he should be significantly more fireproof than any one else.  He's not wearing flame retardant clothing.  He doesn't have Uzumaki/Zetsu/Byakugo regeneration.  *Asuma and his clothes are not magical fire-proof beings.*


> Bringing up semantics is wasting my time.


Ignorance of semantics wastes your time because nobody will understand what the hell you're actually trying to say so you'll keep repeating yourself to no avoid.  Using words the way they're commonly understood is a crucial communication skill.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

SoleAccord said:


> "An internal organ shouldn't equal an external defense in durability and flammability." That still stands. Soft, sensitive tissue is still tissue no matter how thick it is, right?
> 
> It likely engulfed Sasuke on Jiraiya's own command, as Jiraiya reassured Naruto not to worry and that it was 'his' jutsu. The stomach didn't act on its own. If you already deduced that, then my apologies.
> 
> Also confused why you say the toad has durability to flame, what makes you say that?



I honestly can't find the good translation, so I'll have to resort to Narutowiki for my reasoning. (which I try not to do, since it's less direct than scans)



"A peculiar technique of partial invocation that summons only an organ: the *oesophagus of a great, fire-breathing toad*....Itachi used Amaterasu to burn through the oesophagus, *which is said to be fire-resistant.*"

The throat is fire resistant, which makes sense, because it's the mouth of a toad that breathes fire, and in better translations, the remark Jiraya makes says that he's confused as to what sort of fire jutsu could actually harm the thing.  

The databook makes mention of it, and Jiraiya's not of it too, under Ameterasu's listing.

Picture text:
Top: The black flames that only the owner of the Mangekyou Sharingan can control

are even able to instantly break through the side of a rock toad who breathes
fire!!
Bottom: Jiraiya, who has mastered many jutsu, did not know of the existence of
Amaterasu. What he does understand is the power of the suspicious conflagration.



I really wish I could find a proper translation, but at least I hope this shows I'm not just making stuff up about flame resistant toad throats, and why I think this particular internal organ should have fire resistance that's far greater than a normal persons, or cursed mark skin.


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## Ersa (Feb 3, 2013)

So what's Sakura's response to a faster Sasuke using CS2 to further boost his speed and Sharingan pre-cognition whose flying towards her and aiming a Kuroi Chidori at her neck? 

Smashing the ground in front of her? Or trying to counter a faster opponent boosted by CS and can predict her linear attacks? 

Katons will hurt her and serve as good distractions for him to enter CS2 and get into the air. Sakura has no knowledge on CS2, only CS1.


----------



## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I really wish I could find a proper translation, but at least I hope this shows I'm not just making stuff up about flame resistant toad throats, and why I think this particular internal organ should have fire resistance that's far greater than a normal persons, or cursed mark skin.



Personally, I forgot where this was even going, and I feel this was just one big circle. Narutowiki confirms the fire resistance but a translation is always better. Lucky for you, I'm not hard-headed, and am content with taking your word on it. 

My other points other than the fire-resistance of the esophagus do stand though.


----------



## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Or trying to counter a faster opponent boosted by CS and can predict her linear attacks?



Ironic, talking about the weakness of linear attacks when talking about Chidori, the most linear attack of all time.  It'd be one thing if you said he would time his attack to counter hers, but he's just going to go charging straight at her with Chidori?  And in midair, given his complete lack of showing any agility with his wings?  That's asking to be punched in the face.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Ironic, talking about the weakness of linear attacks when talking about Chidori, the most linear attack of all time.


Except you know Sharingan is canonically stated to negate that disadvantage? 

With flight he can aim Chidori anywhere he wants.

Still don't see how Sakura has a chance.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> I'll tell you it's wrong because it is.  Once again, potential is different from certainty.  If you said cutting someone is fatal because you saw someone die from having his neck cut, it doesn't mean every paper cut in the world will kill you.



You just told me getting shot in the head wasn't fatal. Shoot yourself in the face and see what happens.



> Asuma didn't just survive a fire, on the verge of death, he got away with *minimal* injuries and could *easily* continue to fight.  He's not even like Obito with a regenerative Zetsu body.  He's a relatively normal shinobi with no defenses/regeneration.  There's no reason in the world he should be significantly more fireproof than any one else.  He's not wearing flame retardant clothing.  He doesn't have Uzumaki/Zetsu/Byakugo regeneration.  *Asuma and his clothes are not magical fire-proof beings.*



Asuma sustained the same injuries Hidan did, who has good durability feats. Asuma never got the chance to be set on fire. Hidan's the one who got hit with the attack directly. And Hidan _is_ magical.  Seriously, Kakazu and Hidan's combination attacks work solely based off the fact that Hidan can be in Kakuzu's line of fire and survive.

Obito doesn't have regeneration, but I'll ignore that. Hirodura couldn't kill Kisame, who has no body modifications at all. Does this make Hirodua non-lethal? 

Sasuke, who is obviously familiar with Fire-Release, fully expected Naruto to die from a possible Katon from Kakashi. Fire is fatal. What Hidan can tank does not set the standard for what can kill Ninja. Why don't you pull up scans of Sakura surviving _any_ Katon (instead of jumping out of the way) and then we'll talk.



PDQ said:


> Ignorance of semantics wastes your time because nobody will understand what the hell you're actually trying to say so you'll keep repeating yourself to no avoid.  Using words the way they're commonly understood is a crucial communication skill.



Nobody has _ever _had a problem with the way I word things. Though there is someone in this thread laughing their ass off at you're supposed "logic."


----------



## Art Master (Feb 3, 2013)

That's why there is sharingan. To take away the disadvantage of chidori being linear.



Edit: Rasant ninja'd me.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

Art Master said:


> A Katon has never shown to kill before. Therefore, Katons can't kill. Even if a human gets entirely engulfed by it.
> 
> Fodders getting killed by katons. But they don't count since they are fodders even if they're also humans?
> 
> Delicious logic.



I think it's a valid claim.  ANBU have been defeated by jutsu that named genin can get out of.  Kakashi fought one named Jonin, Zabuza, and it was a hugely intense battle that left him exhausted, forcing him to unviel his sharingan from match start.  Later, during the invasion, Kakashi and Guy kill scores of them with just kunai and base punches.  Shikamaru, a named genin, traps a horde of sound chunin, when he and every other genin previously fell victim to the D rank genjutsu of Kotesu the named chunin.  Then Asuma shows up and fodderizes them and the nameless sound Jonin by punching them all in the head.

Then we have this entire war, where Tenten has been killing Zetsu bodies with shuriken, and every named person survived until the final battle, while something like 100 thousand far older and more experienced chunin and jonin fell victim to lol Zetsu.  Having a name makes just makes you stronger and more resistant to everything.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I think it's a valid claim.



So Part 1 Hinata is more fire resistant than ANBU #256 because we know her name.

Really.


----------



## Art Master (Feb 3, 2013)

So Sakura can survive a Katon because she is Sakura? Then Neji can't be killed by Minato with a kunai to the heart or head since he is Neji and he's a named character? Only Rasengan yeah, but a kunai no since it has never shown to kill a named character before. Not really following that logic.

Yeah Im out of here. 

Good luck rocky.


----------



## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You just told me getting shot in the head wasn't fatal. Shoot yourself in the face and see what happens.


Once again, you proven to lack any ability to differentiate between being fatal and having the possibility of being fatal.  Do you realize people won't do something that has even a 1 in 1000 chance of killing themselves if there's nothing to gain?

By your standards, eating undercooked eggs is fatal because salmonella is fatal.  I've had plenty of undercooked eggs in my life.  Since you have a false dichotomy that everything is either fatal or nonfatal, you should be shocked.

Nonfatal means to be incapable of causing death.  Fatal means to cause death.  In between are things that are neither, they have the potential to cause death but are not guaranteed.


> Asuma sustained the same injuries Hidan did, who has good durability feats. Asuma never got the chance to be set on fire. Hidan's the one who got hit with the attack directly. And Hidan _is_ magical.


Hidan survives attacks because he's *immortal* not because he's durable.  There's a difference.  Hidan won't die if you cut his head off.  Hell, the guy can talk without lungs.  That doesn't transfer to his curse victims.


> Sasuke, who is obviously familiar with Fire-Release, fully expected Naruto to die from a possible Katon from Kakashi.


1.  It was Sakura who said that
2.  She was using hyperbole to get Naruto's attention.


> Why don't you pull up scans of Sakura surviving _any_ Katon (instead of jumping out of the way) and then we'll talk.


You want to talk about what will be guaranteed to kill her, so the burden of proof is on you that it'll be fatal to her.


> Nobody has ever had a problem with the way I word things.


Are you basing that off the number of people who tell you that to your face?


> Though there is someone in this thread laughing their ass off at you're supposed "logic."


I have heard that ignorance is a source of bliss, guess it works for laughter too.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

SoleAccord said:


> Personally, I forgot where this was even going, and I feel this was just one big circle. Narutowiki confirms the fire resistance but a translation is always better. Lucky for you, I'm not hard-headed, and am content with taking your word on it.
> 
> My other points other than the fire-resistance of the esophagus do stand though.



The point was two fold.  You and others said that Sasuke could just use katons to kill her without getting close, and that katons are crippling because fire burns.  PDQ and I were showing that katons....really don't work out that way.  Rocky also said that katons were really dangerous, but Cursed mark gave you a really low defensive boost.

So the point of bringing up the fire resistant toad mouth was that either katons are useless against people with names (and by extension Sakura), and/or that cursed seal gives you some crazy defensive boosts for Sasuke's wing to tank Ameterasu, when a fire proof toad throat got incinerated by it.  Which explains why Sasuke was unhurt by Naruto's KN1 punch when he turned on his cursed mark, and why Sasuke will die if she hits him.  

My most probably scenerio has it that without knowledge of her super strength, Sasuke will taijutsu skirmish with Sakura like he would and does with any normal person in base.  Blocking, catching hits, ect.  When he tries to block or catch one of her hits, she will smash his guard and kill him.  Or she tags him, and he dies.  Or she parries one of his blows with super strength, and breaks him.  Even if he loses an arm, he can't make seals to  use ninjutsu anymore, and is reduced to fighting one handed.  That's too huge of a handicap to win with.  If it's a kick she hard blocks, Sasuke won't be evading the next blow.

Bleh.  Are you following this all night recap?


----------



## SoleAccord (Feb 3, 2013)

No, not really. The entire argument I made in support of Sasuke is on Page 2, helping justify the victory everyone who supports him would give him. I'm a bit too tired to carry on, so if you'd like to read it, its there. I'm too tired for the whole Amaterasu durability flammability blah blah blah to be honest, no disrespect to you. 

Gonna go sleep nao ...good night~


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So Part 1 Hinata is more fire resistant than ANBU #256 because we know her name.
> 
> Really.



Hinata tanked a ST and a Pain rod stabbing, when Deva's ST took out a score of ninja backing up Kakashi.  Oh, also, Chouza and Chouji were the only two to not be taken out by the ST, and coincidentally they also were the only two in the group besides Kakashi with names.

I'm personally not a fan of that sort of argumentation, but it's, well, not as laughable as you guys are making it out to be.


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## Ersa (Feb 3, 2013)

You do realize that with Sharingan Sasuke can see Sakura building up all that chakra in her hand and might opt to dodge inside of block? Nevermind that Sasuke was 3 tomoe in base was capable of tracking KN0 Naruto and able to counter his attacks. A weaker KN0 Naruto blitzed Haku with a 4 in speed. It's also pretty IC for Sakura to smash up the landscape to unbalance her opponents. Once Sasuke sees that insane strength he'll obviously go for longer range attacks and CS.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Do you realize people won't do something that has even a 1 in 1000 chance of killing themselves if there's nothing to gain?



Fine. I'll give you 5 bucks if you shoot yourself in the face.

The probability that getting shot is lethal is so high that it can basically be considered a certainty. I need not explain to you why being engulfed in flames or taking a bullet through your head isn't similar to eating an undercooked egg.



> Hidan survives attacks because he's *immortal* not because he's durable.  There's a difference.  Hidan won't die if you cut his head off.  Hell, the guy can talk without lungs.  That doesn't transfer to his curse victims.



His body must be durable enough to survive Kakuzu's attacks.



> 1.  It was Sakura who said that
> 2.  She was using hyperbole to get Naruto's attention.



Sakura was using hyperbole. Really. Care to share how you know that?



> You want to talk about what will be guaranteed to kill her, so the burden of proof is on you that it'll be fatal to her.



Fire Kill Ninja.

Sakura is Ninja

Fire Kill Sakura

Sakura hasn't really shown why she's less prone to a burning death than any other Ninja. I mean, this is gradeschool stuff. Are you trying to tell me you don't think fire can kill Shinobi?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

SoleAccord said:


> No, not really. The entire argument I made in support of Sasuke is on Page 2, helping justify the victory everyone who supports him would give him. I'm a bit too tired to carry on, so if you'd like to read it, its there. I'm too tired for the whole Amaterasu durability flammability blah blah blah to be honest, no disrespect to you.
> 
> Gonna go sleep nao ...good night~



Kay kay.  I'll leave this.

 However, Sharingan sees chakra no matter how small it might be (Fight with Deidara), and if its gathered to her fists Sasuke will obviously understand that taking a blow from her is not something he will want to gamble on.

This is the only part of the argument I take issue with, and what makes the difference to me.  All ninja gather chakra into their fists when they punch.  The difference between Sakura's technique, and normal ninjas, is that she releases and explodes her chakra on impact.  So Sasuke isn't going to get any more warning to take her hit seriously than he did against KN0, and we saw how that turned out.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

Rasant said:


> You do realize that with Sharingan Sasuke can see Sakura building up all that chakra in her hand and might opt to dodge inside of block? Nevermind that Sasuke was 3 tomoe in base was capable of tracking KN0 Naruto and able to counter his attacks. A weaker KN0 Naruto blitzed Haku with a 4 in speed. It's also pretty IC for Sakura to smash up the landscape to unbalance her opponents. Once Sasuke sees that insane strength he'll obviously go for longer range attacks and CS.



We see Sasuke's sharingan POV. He's not really seeing anything specific with the chakra in general, he's only seeing the chakra path from predicting movements.  I don't know if that's because Kishimoto retconned the sharingan, or if it's because the color stuff was learned later, or if Sasuke just wasn't trying to do that against Naruto at that moment.  


Though granting that, I could see your point more if Sasuke is being cautious like he was against KN1's overflowing chakra, but Sasuke....isn't really cautious.  When the Sound 4 came, he basically tried to beat them all up by himself with just his taijutsu to let off stress, and he planned to pummel Naruto to death.  As I also said, ninja always gather chakra into their muscles before attacking for a boost.  So unless he knows that she can actually explode the chakra for a super blow, he won't treat it differently than he would any other attack.  Furthermore it's IC for Sasuke to go up into taijutsu range and attack first.  So with two people running up to go duke it out with each other, it's highly probable that he won't know until it's too late.  I also don't think that Sakura would throw away her element of surprise so carelessly, when the situation is to her favor.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just saying it's unlikely.


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## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Except you know Sharingan is canonically stated to negate that disadvantage?


No, it's _mitigated_ that disadvantage, not _negated_.  It's only said that you can't do Chidori _without_ the Sharingan, it doesn't mean it completely goes away by having it.
As we saw when he used Chidori on the rooftop, even if he can see something(like Sakura running in between them), he can't always control himself to change direction.
Sasuke's sharingan POV
Momentum is a bitch.

Also, if his Sharingan was as good at avoiding counters as you seem to think, Chidori and Rasengan would never collide. He wouldn't need any tricks, he could just dodge Rasengan, like he did here, and hit Naruto with Chidori, winning every time rather than risking an explosion knocking them both back.  Yet that's never happened.  It was entirely possible for base preskip Naruto to counter Chidori, despite the Sharingan to "see the counter".

In case you think Sasuke's only rammed them together because he wanted to test his power, he admitted that he needed tricks to create an opening to avoid another stalemate, so it's not like he was trying to have them collide.


> With flight he can aim Chidori anywhere he wants.


Except he's never flown anywhere but in a straight line which makes his own attacks horribly linear.
Not to mention VotE was literally the first time he's ever used his wings, so his flight is even more limited by being a complete newbie at it.

If his flight were as good as you say, since Naruto was jumping and not flying, and therefore unable to change directions in midair, Sasuke could've entirely avoided colliding with Rasengan and hit him instead.


I swear, the way people discuss this match, they'd probably argue VotE Sasuke could beat Tsunade if Katsuyu and Byakugo/Sozo Saizei are restricted..."He'll just use his Sharingan to dodge all her attacks and put a Chidori through her chest"


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## Ersa (Feb 3, 2013)

PDQ said:


> No, it's _mitigated_ that disadvantage, not _negated_.  It's only said that you can't do Chidori _without_ the Sharingan, it doesn't mean it completely goes away by having it.
> As we saw when he used Chidori on the rooftop, even if he can see something(like Sakura running in between them), he can't always control himself to change direction.
> 2
> Momentum is a bitch.
> ...


Chidori is a linear attack but with Sharingan Kakashi stated you could counter the opponent's counter. It's no where near as linear as you are suggesting.

Except it is as good at avoiding counters, the Sasuke/Naruto clash is done for plot. So they can understand each other, are you honestly using that as an argument? It's like in Part II how they used Rasengan and Chidori against each other, in that case Naruto wanted to confirm Sasuke's feelings. Same with their first clash at VoTE, Naruto wanted to see if Sasuke really wanted to kill him. Kishi made them clash for that purpose.

Sharingan allowed Sasuke was to keep up with KN0 Naruto despite being massively slower. It allows Itachi to go toe to toe with arguably the fastest character in movement speed (KCM Naruto). Don't see where this Sharingan is not good at predicting attacks comes from.

He can fly well enough, all he needs is a few Katons for distractions/dust and then swoop down from above. Are you bringing that up again? That was pure plot, you realize the biggest fight in Part I has to end 'cool' right? It would be anti-climatic if Sasuke decided to think and do something logical.

Cool bring Tsunade in, except you realize Tsunade is basically superior to Sakura in every conceivable way massively bar genjutsu which neither are any good at. She's better at evasion, taijutsu, smarter, faster and has a tonne more stamina. Not to mention she has power higher then A. Tsunade can beat VOTE Sasuke without regen/Katsuyu, with higher speed and better evasion/stamina she can wear him out. CS2 is limited.

Sakura can't, her evasion skills are shit (dem rocks must be hard to dodge). Her speed is not enough for Sasuke, CS2 Sasuke predicts her moves and wins with Kuroi Chidori.


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## PDQ (Feb 3, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Chidori is a linear attack but with Sharingan Kakashi stated you could counter the opponent's counter.


He actually hasn't as far as I can find in the manga. You seem to be combining Minato's with Lee's words and adding your own interpretation on top of it.


> It's no where near as linear as you are suggesting.


Yes it is.
Link removed
"I wouldn't run *straight into* my opponent"
"*A straight forward attack *makes it easy to counter"


> Except it is as good at avoiding counters, the Sasuke/Naruto clash is done for plot. So they can understand each other, are you honestly using that as an argument? It's like in Part II how they used Rasengan and Chidori against each other, in that case Naruto wanted to confirm Sasuke's feelings. Same with their first clash at VoTE, Naruto wanted to see if Sasuke really wanted to kill him. Kishi made them clash for that purpose.


And yet, as I said, Kishi also made it into a plot point about how Sasuke needed to distract Naruto otherwise it'd be a "waste" according to Sasuke.  In other words, even if it served a plot purpose, it's still _canonical_ that Sasuke *doesn't believe* he can hit Naruto with Chidori while avoiding Rasengan.


> Are you bringing that up again? That was pure plot, you realize the biggest fight in Part I has to end 'cool' right? It would be anti-climatic if Sasuke decided to think and do something logical.


Except the part where he "thought and did something logical" just a few chapters earlier.  "Pure plot" would require it just be unnoticed and unmentioned.  It became a canonical limitation the moment it was actually brought up by Sasuke earlier in order for him to actually land Chidori.


> Cool bring Tsunade in, except you realize Tsunade is basically superior to Sakura in every conceivable way massively bar genjutsu which neither are any good at. She's better at evasion, taijutsu, smarter, faster and has a tonne more stamina. Not to mention she has power higher then A. Tsunade can beat VOTE Sasuke without regen/Katsuyu, with higher speed and better evasion/stamina she can wear him out. CS2 is limited.


Sure, and yet, you can't really support either case how that matters.  Ultimately the argument relies on asserting "Sasuke's Sharingan sees and counters all".  You don't rely on real proof of how much better Sasuke is, you just assert that he is with fuzzy databook stats as support.  You'd just pull out something like "Sasuke has a 3.5 in speed, the same as Tsunade, but he has the CS to make him faster, Katon to distract her, can copy Lee's 4 speed and 3 Tomoe Sharingan to dodge everything she does, predict where she'll evade to evasion and Chidori her.  Her stamina doesn't matter because she'll die instantly from a Chidori to the heart, and Sasuke's lower stamina is made up for by the CS giving him a chakra boost"  Oh and throw in some excuses about any evidence showing otherwise is just pure plot.
Sound about right?


> Sakura can't, her evasion skills are shit (dem rocks must be hard to dodge).


When you're freefalling and therefore can't really move, yes, anything becomes hard to dodge.  The only person ever shown to dodge something in mid-air who can't fly is Naruto, because of using Kage Bunshin to change direction.

To dispel you of any delusions you may have of what went on, *nobody* was doing any sort of Matrix-style mid-air rock dodging sequences.  Let's conveniently forget that everyone, including SM Naruto and gated Lee/Gai got knocked away by the sheer force of wind and were helpless to move out of the way of whatever else came flying at them and could barely see because they had to shield their eyes due to the sheer amount of wind and debris coming at them.
Hell, dat ground must be hard to dodge if even SM Naruto can't avoid it...
I can't believe you're actually treating a forum meme as actual evidence of her lacking dodging skills 

Sure, she's bad at dodging, that's why she managed to dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions...Sasori is just a terrible puppeteer.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2013)

> He can fly well enough, *all he needs is a few Katons for distractions*/dust and then swoop down from above. Are you bringing that up again? *That was pure plot*, you realize the biggest fight in Part I has to end 'cool' right? It would be anti-climatic if Sasuke decided to think and do something logical.



*That was pure plot*
dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

*It would be anti-climatic if Sasuke decided to think and do something logical.*

dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

*all he needs is a few Katons for distractions*
dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

*and then swoop down from above*
dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

*you realize the biggest fight in Part I has to end 'cool' right?*
dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

So aside from doing everything you said in cursed seal mode against base Naruto because self prclaims he _needed_ to...



> Chidori is a linear attack but with Sharingan Kakashi stated you could counter the opponent's counter. It's no where near as linear as you are suggesting.



dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

Whoosh marks by Zabuza
dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

Shock
dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

Head scratch

dodge almost a dozen blades coming at her from all directions

It mitigates.  If your opponent has prepared a counter during your charge, you can read it and alter your course.  If they act later, beyond your window to react like Haku and Naruto, you're just screwed.  Or if they read your change and counter your counter like Danzo, you're also screwed.  Raikiri/Chidori is one of my favorite attacks, and it's cool as hell, but it's not perfect, and at VotE Sasuke's level, it doesn't work so well on someone who's good at reading trajectories to the point where the general direction of Sasori's puppet attacks was enough for her to dodge perfectly without assistance, and is seeking to evade you by a mile like Sakura (all medics) should, unless you totally and utterly speed blitz her.  ....like when Sasuke grows up a bit.  P2 Sasuke can probably just take her head off then.  But right now they're too even for that to happen.


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## Seiji (Feb 3, 2013)

Sauce vs Sakura thread reaching to near hundred replies. Wasn't aware this was even a contested match.


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## Tobirama Uchiha (May 10, 2016)

No need for explanations...
Easy win for Sasuke


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