# Old Hiruzen Vs itachi



## Trojan (Nov 12, 2022)

knowledge: Manga
Distance: 30m
mindset: IC, to kill
restrictions: None 
location: VOTE

Reactions: Funny 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Architect (Nov 12, 2022)

Fodderuzen gets stomped

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Nov 12, 2022)

New Folder said:


> knowledge: Manga
> Distance: 30m
> mindset: IC, to kill
> restrictions: None
> location: VOTE


I wonder how RDS would work against yata mirror, that's my biggest concern with this matchup.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Wolfgang (Nov 12, 2022)

Wake up to reality.

Reactions: Like 1 | Kage 2


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## Ssj2Hokage (Nov 12, 2022)

Itachi wins with only 1 finger

Reactions: Like 1


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## deltaniner (Nov 12, 2022)

According to feats and portrayal, Old Hiruzen at absolute best, most reasonably optimistic interpretation extreme-diffs Oro without Edos or Yamata, who in contrast to his toying with and derision of Hiruzen, has nothing but praise for and concedes outright inferiority to Itachi.

To add to that, according to narrative milestones, sick Itachi is, at absolute worst, just a hair's cut below SM Jman
However, as the OP does not believe in sick Itachi, I am _begrudgingly _forced to assume this is _healthy_ Itachi
Who, through scaling to his Edo self, is far above SM Jman, who's already above an Orochimaru Old Hiruzen at absolute best extreme-diffs
Thus, Itachi here low-diffs

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Black zetsu (Nov 12, 2022)

- tsukuyomi 
- amaterasu
- totsuka
- susano'o
- ephemeral
- dusk Crow 
- demonic illusion shakling stakes
- burning paper genjutsu 
- Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson 
- yasaka no magatama 
- Ms hirudora 
 
Choose your card

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Kage 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 12, 2022)

Hiruzen uses omyoton and troll diff’s
Only to wake up dead


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## Monarch (Nov 12, 2022)

Itachi canonically negged Hiruzen's superior, so he wins here.

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Ludi (Nov 12, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Itachi canonically negged Hiruzen's superior, so he wins here.


Hiruzen doesn't have a superior  

"He stands on top of not just konoha but the entire shinobi world"

Reactions: Winner 1 | Kage 1


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## Monarch (Nov 12, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Hiruzen doesn't have a superior
> 
> "He stands on top of not just konoha but the entire shinobi world"


I agree since his place resides in the Heavens after Itachi's inferior kicked his ass.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Creative 1 | Kage 1


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## Ludi (Nov 12, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I agree since his place resides in the Heavens after Itachi's inferior kicked his ass.



But he was stated above everyone alive in p1 before he died

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Monarch (Nov 12, 2022)

Ludi said:


> But he was stated above everyone alive in p1 before he died


I'd agree if that was referring to Primeruzen.  

Oldruzen, not so much.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ludi (Nov 12, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I'd agree if that was referring to Primeruzen.
> 
> Oldruzen, not so much.


A younger Hiruzen was the strongest of a stronger time, including tobirama, A3, hanzo, kurama etc etc   

Old Hiruzen was the strongest of a much weaker P1 time, but still stronger than P1 Itachi, as Itachi is still part of the entire world

Reactions: Kage 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ludi (Nov 12, 2022)

Macho said:


> Are they not talking about leadership?


No, because it also features the "possessed superlative strength even compared to the other Hokage"


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## Mithos (Nov 12, 2022)

(Old) Hiruzen would force Itachi to use the MS, but then he’d lose before long. He lacks the stamina in his old age to use enough clones to protect himself long enough to outlast Itachi. 

Itachi wins, moderate to moderately-high difficulty.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 12, 2022)

Totsuka GG. Hiruzen has no answer for it. And while Hiruzen did semi-blitz Oro while heavily weakened, Itachi fully blitzed Oro from a significantly greater distance while heavily weakened himself. I don't know if P1 Saru can use Goton on a high enough level to break something like an armored Susano'o, let alone one with the Yata Mirror.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Trojan (Nov 12, 2022)

Mithos said:


> (Old) Hiruzen would force Itachi to use the MS, but then he’d lose before long. He lacks the stamina in his old age to use enough clones to protect himself long enough to outlast Itachi.
> 
> Itachi wins, moderate to moderately-high difficulty.


Hiruzen has more stamina than itachi tho 




ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Itachi canonically negged Hiruzen's superior, so he wins here.


But Hiruzen reacted to jj obito 
And outperform Tobirama during the war arc

why we don’t see the same energy here?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Monarch (Nov 12, 2022)

New Folder said:


> But Hiruzen reacted to jj obito


Yet he was more or less below Orochimaru who got blitzed by Itachi. We also don't know how fast Juubito's flight speed is, nor if Hiruzen moved during Juubito's arm extension. For all we know, it's possible he moved after he got hit. 


New Folder said:


> And outperform Tobirama during the war arc
> 
> why we don’t see the same energy here?


Not really. Tobirama actually managed to tag Juubito with an FTG marking, while Hiruzen could not accomplish anything before his torso got obliterated.

At best you can say Hiruzen did better when he saved Naruto from the branches, but he was likely closer to them, so it cancels out at worst since both outperformed one another.

They both outperformed KCM Minato who failed to dodge a bloated unstable Juubito's kick though.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Azula (Nov 12, 2022)

Ssj2Hokage said:


> Itachi wins with only 1 finger


One finger feats are part 1 Naruto level only since both Tsunade and Jiraiya could bully part 1 Naruto with one finger.


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## Trojan (Nov 13, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Yet he was more or less below Orochimaru who got blitzed by Itachi. We also don't know how fast Juubito's flight speed is, nor if Hiruzen moved during Juubito's arm extension. For all we know, it's possible he moved after he got hit.


and? You mean same Oro who was controlling Tobirama & Hashirama, both of whom were defeated by Hiruzen at the same time?  

- it's the same speed he used to curbstomps Tobirama. 
However, we don't know if Hiruzen used his full speed or not, since he just wanted to analyze how JJ Obito's jutsu works.  



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Not really. Tobirama actually managed to tag Juubito with an FTG marking, while Hiruzen could not accomplish anything before his torso got obliterated.
> 
> At best you can say Hiruzen did better when he saved Naruto from the branches, but he was likely closer to them, so it cancels out at worst since both outperformed one another.


- Hiruzen reacted by summoning the Fuma-Shurkin, and then using the clone jutsu on the Shurkin... 

- Yes, he did better than Tobirama there, even tho Tobirama was the closer one. Since he was literally inside of Naruto's avatar. 
So, no, it doesn't cancel anything out.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2022)

Ludi said:


> @Turrin  has the scan about Hiruzen

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Legion123 (Nov 13, 2022)

Itachi shit diffs

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Monarch (Nov 13, 2022)

New Folder said:


> and? You mean same Oro who was controlling Tobirama & Hashirama, both of whom were defeated by Hiruzen at the same time?


This doesn't change anything. Orochimaru could react to Hiruzen and only lost because he was holding back.  


New Folder said:


> - it's the same speed he used to curbstomps Tobirama.


You haven't proved that, and Tobirama's reaction was better anyway. 


New Folder said:


> However, we don't know if Hiruzen used his full speed or not, since he just wanted to analyze how JJ Obito's jutsu works.


This is a rather poor excuse for Hiruzen's pitiful showing, but so be it. In that case, I can make the same argument for Tobirama. 


New Folder said:


> - Hiruzen reacted by summoning the Fuma-Shurkin, and then using the clone jutsu on the Shurkin...


From a larger distance, and to unstable Juubito'a flying speed, we don't know if it scales above the flicker that he used on Tobirama.


New Folder said:


> - Yes, he did better than Tobirama there, even tho Tobirama was the closer one. Since he was literally inside of Naruto's avatar.
> So, no, it doesn't cancel anything out.


It cancels out because both of them outperformed one another.


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## Trojan (Nov 13, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> This doesn't change anything. Orochimaru could react to Hiruzen and only lost because he was holding back.


good for Oro.  


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> ou haven't proved that, and Tobirama's reaction was better anyway.


Don't have 2. If you think he was slower, you are the one who should prove otherwise.  
No, Hiruzen's reaction were superior. Hence, the damage was in his shoulder only, whereas Tobirama lost half of his body. 



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> his is a rather poor excuse for Hiruzen's pitiful showing, but so be it. In that case, I can make the same argument for Tobirama.


he still outperformed Tobirama with this "pitiful" showing tho.  


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> From a larger distance, and to unstable Juubito'a flying speed, we don't know if it scales above the flicker that he used on Tobirama.


where was it showing that the distance is larger? 

flying is faster than walking. So, we know it's faster. 

if walking was faster, Obito wouldn't have continued fighting while he is flying...



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> It cancels out because both of them outperformed one another.


Tobirama never outperformed Hiruzen. 

Even upon the arrival, Hiruzen was faster than Tobirama

He used more attacks against a faster JJ Obito, and took less damage
and saved Naruto first.

meanwhile, what are itachi's feats? Getting solo'd by a Tayuya?


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## Mithos (Nov 14, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Totsuka GG. Hiruzen has no answer for it


Arguably, the Sword of Totsuka is the easiest MS ability for him to deal with: he simply deflects it with Enma.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1 | Disagree 3 | Dislike 1


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## Tri (Nov 14, 2022)

Itachi walls him off with Susanoo and kills him with either Tsukuyomi or Ama.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Azula (Nov 14, 2022)

Tri said:


> Itachi walls him off with Susanoo and kills him with either Tsukuyomi or Ama.


Susano can be melted with katon jutsu, broken through with fuuton jutsu (like Danzo).

Itachi can be attacked from below the ground using doton jutsu.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tri (Nov 14, 2022)

Azula said:


> Susano can be melted with katon jutsu, broken through with fuuton jutsu (like Danzo).


Itachi has access to V4 and Yata, you’re gonna have to show me these Hiruzen katons and fuutons that are potent enough to do what you’re saying they’d do


Azula said:


> Itachi can be attacked from below the ground using doton jutsu.


Show me Hiruzen doing this to a Shinobi of Itachi’s caliber

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Nov 14, 2022)

Tri said:


> Itachi has access to V4 and Yata, you’re gonna have to show me these Hiruzen katons and fuutons that are potent enough to do what you’re saying they’d do
> 
> Show me Hiruzen doing this to a Shinobi of Itachi’s caliber


RDS would counter any defense from Susanoo


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## Goku (Nov 14, 2022)

Mithos said:


> Arguably, the Sword of Totsuka is the easiest MS ability for him to deal with: he simply deflects it with Enma.


What makes you think that? A single stroke decapitated six heads of Orochimaru's Yamata that even surpassed Orochimaru himself and was the latter's most powerful jutsu.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Turrin (Nov 14, 2022)

Goku said:


> What makes you think that? A single stroke decapitated six heads of Orochimaru's Yamata that even surpassed Orochimaru himself and was the latter's most powerful jutsu.


Yamata doesn’t have Adamantium durability.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sufex (Nov 14, 2022)

Wolfgang said:


> Wake up to reality.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Tri (Nov 14, 2022)

Turrin said:


> RDS would counter any defense from Susanoo


Hiruzen had to physically grab Oro and almost died to a Oro who was basically fucking with him until the last second and he still didn’t fully seal Oro. What makes you think he could get anywhere near Itachi without being OHKOd and what makes you think he’d resort to _at best _a draw _before _he gets killed by one of Itachi’s numerous win conditions.


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## Turrin (Nov 14, 2022)

Tri said:


> Hiruzen had to physically grab Oro and almost died to a Oro who was basically fucking with him until the last second and he still didn’t fully seal Oro. What makes you think he could get anywhere near Itachi without being OHKOd and what makes you think he’d resort to _at best _a draw _before _he gets killed by one of Itachi’s numerous win conditions.


Hiruzen only had to grab Orochimaru himself since he didn’t have chakra left for anymore Clones after sealing the Hokage.

In a scenario where he hasn’t already used RDS 2-Times before, he would simply create a clone to grab Itachi, and since Hiruzen’s clones while using RDS can take fatal damage and not disperse, it wouldn’t matter what Itachi hit them with:
——
I’m assuming you believe Itachi can defend all of Hiruzen’s Elemental Jutsu and Enma without too much effort right? In-which case Hiruzen would realize the need for RDS pretty quickly.
——
I don’t think Itachi has any solid easy win-cons in this fight. Hiruzen has knowledge of the Uchiha/Itachi and was trained by the two Master Anti-Sharingan/Uchiha Fighters (Tobirama/Hashirama). He also has demonstrated the ability to fight proficiently when totally blind, so chances of Itachi quickly winning through Sharingan Trickery/Hax are extremely low here.

Enma and Hiruzen’s Elemental Jutsu easily negate Itachi’s Taijutsu, Shuriken Jutsu, and Elemental Jutsu. Also very unlikely that any lower forms of Susanoo are getting through Enma (if even the higher forms can). This leaves Amaterasu and Totosuka Blade as the only thing that can threaten Hiruzen, and they are also Jutsu that aren’t likely to come out until much later on when Hiruzen is likely already opting for RDS. Additionally they are also much more questionable if they would work on Hiruzen then RDS is. Though we can talk about how Hiruzen could possible deal with those 2 abilities in particular once we agree on the fact  that they aren’t likely to come out until Hiruzen is at the point of using RDS anyway.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Nov 14, 2022)

With all of Itachi's Tech hard to believe he doesn't win but and argument can be made for Hiruzen...but for now Itachi wins Genjutsu the same move he used to own Orochimaru low-mid diff, which Hiruzen Had extremely Diff fight against Orochimaru.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 14, 2022)

Mithos said:


> Arguably, the Sword of Totsuka is the easiest MS ability for him to deal with: he simply deflects it with Enma.



Nope. The Totsuka cuts clean through it and seals Saru.

Totsuka is essentially Kusanagi wielded by someone far stronger than Orochimaru. Enma worried about Kusanagi even in staff form.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Turrin (Nov 14, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nope. The Totsuka cuts clean through it and seals Saru.
> 
> Totsuka is essentially Kusanagi wielded by someone far stronger than Orochimaru. Enma worried about Kusanagi even in staff form.


Ksunagi couldn’t even scratch him in staff form. I don’t know how your going from that to it cutting clean through it, just because the wielder is a little stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Shazam (Nov 14, 2022)

Mithos said:


> (Old) Hiruzen would force Itachi to use the MS, but then he’d lose before long. He lacks the stamina in his old age to use enough clones to protect himself long enough to outlast Itachi.
> 
> Itachi wins, moderate to moderately-high difficulty.


Agreed with this


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 14, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Ksunagi couldn’t even scratch him in staff form. I don’t know how your going from that to it cutting clean through it, just because the wielder is a *little* stronger.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nope. The Totsuka cuts clean through it and seals Saru.
> 
> Totsuka is essentially Kusanagi wielded by someone *far* stronger than Orochimaru. Enma worried about Kusanagi even in staff form.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2022)

@Aegon Targaryen 

Still doesn’t address anything I said. Prove the strength difference whether big or small would be enough to cut through Adamantium. What feats does Totosuka or Susanoo Swords have that indicate this is the case.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Tri (Nov 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> In a scenario where he hasn’t already used RDS 2-Times before, he would simply create a clone to grab Itachi, and since Hiruzen’s clones while using RDS can take fatal damage and not disperse, it wouldn’t matter what Itachi hit them with:


They’d be squished by Susanoo long before they got anywhere near Itachi, not to mention Itachi has much better physical stats than Hiruzen to evade this type of attack to begin with.


Turrin said:


> I’m assuming you believe Itachi can defend all of Hiruzen’s Elemental Jutsu and Enma without too much effort right? In-which case Hiruzen would realize the need for RDS pretty quickly.


If Itachi has Susanoo up then he’s already more than likely used one of his other OHKOs with Ama or Tsukuyomi or just squished Hiruzen cause Hiruzen can’t really do a whole lot about any of those.


Turrin said:


> I don’t think Itachi has any solid easy win-cons in this fight.


Yes he does lol what is this wanking.


Turrin said:


> Hiruzen has knowledge of the Uchiha/Itachi and was trained by the two Master Anti-Sharingan/Uchiha Fighters


This means jack shit as we saw in the manga countless times with Danzo, Deidara, Kakashi, etc. This is literally a non point unless he has some actual feat of doing something of substance against the Uchiha like Gai.


Turrin said:


> He also has demonstrated the ability to fight proficiently when totally blind, so chances of Itachi quickly winning through Sharingan Trickery/Hax are extremely low here.


Against part 1 edos….Like you cannot seriously think because he grabbed part 1 edos in bringer of darkness means he can effectively fight fucking Itachi with his eyes closed.


Turrin said:


> Enma and Hiruzen’s Elemental Jutsu easily negate Itachi’s Taijutsu, Shuriken Jutsu, and Elemental Jutsu.


??? How, prove it.


Turrin said:


> Also very unlikely that any lower forms of Susanoo are getting through Enma (if even the higher forms can).


Enma was sweating at Kusanagi, the idea he’d tank something capable of popping people like zits is funny especially when Itachi has a sword that’s canonically >> Kusanagi.


Turrin said:


> This leaves Amaterasu and Totosuka Blade as the only thing that can threaten Hiruzen, and they are also Jutsu that aren’t likely to come out until much later on when Hiruzen is likely already opting for RDS. Additionally they are also much more questionable if they would work on Hiruzen then RDS is. Though we can talk about how Hiruzen could possible deal with those 2 abilities in particular once we agree on the fact that they aren’t likely to come out until Hiruzen is at the point of using RDS anyway.


The idea of Hiruzen using a literal suicide attack before Itachi uses one of his easily accessible MS jutsus that can handily OHKO Hiruzen is so laughable that I’m not even sure this is worth addressing.


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2022)

Tri said:


> They’d be squished by Susanoo long before they got anywhere near Itachi, not to mention Itachi has much better physical stats than Hiruzen to evade this type of attack to begin with.
> 
> If Itachi has Susanoo up then he’s already more than likely used one of his other OHKOs with Ama or Tsukuyomi or just squished Hiruzen cause Hiruzen can’t really do a whole lot about any of those.
> 
> ...


1) Enma would block Susanoo hits with his Cage Form.

2) Based on what is Itachi faster then Hiruzen?

3/4/5) Pretty much your counter to Hiruzen being able to fight blind is that it was just against the Edo Hokage, who you seemingly have much weaker then Itachi in speed. So can you explain to me how Itachi scales over them in speed?

6) Enma blocked a legendary Diamond Cutting Sword. There is no way basic Kunai and Taijutsu can get through that. Hiruzen’s Elemental Jutsu also canceled out the Buddha’s elements which is a far higher feat then anything Itachi has shown with Elemental Jutsu. On-top of the fact that Hiruzen can use the opposing element to give himself an advantage, countering itachi’s Fire Release with Water Release.

7) What proof is there that Susanoo has better penetrative power then Ksuangi? Literally it’s ultimate weapon (Totosuka) is a Ksunagi blade itself. So saying that Enma getting not even a scratch from a Ksunagi sword means another Ksunagi sword will easily beat it, doesn’t make sense.

8) Easily accessible? They cost Itachi eyesight, massive amounts of chakra, and cough blood, there isn’t anything easily accessible about Mangekyo for Itachi. Though I already told you I don’t agree these Mangekyo Jutsu would easily kill Hiruzen, so even if Itachi pulls one out Hiruzen can still survive against it and then use RDS afterwards

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> @Aegon Targaryen
> 
> Still doesn’t address anything I said. Prove the strength difference whether big or small would be enough to cut through Adamantium. What feats does Totosuka or Susanoo Swords have that indicate this is the case.



It addresses everything you said. "Adamantium" already feared a clash with a far weaker use of the Kusanagi, so it's a no-brainer what happens when the "Kusanagi" user is far stronger. 

You need to prove Enma has any feats or portrayal to indicate it can handle Totsuka when Enma himself worried about a clash with Kusanagi. 

You're just trying to be contrarian again.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It addresses everything you said. "Adamantium" already feared a clash with a far weaker use of the Kusanagi, so it's a no-brainer what happens when the "Kusanagi" user is far stronger.
> 
> You need to prove Enma has any feats or portrayal to indicate it can handle Totsuka when Enma himself worried about a clash with Kusanagi.
> 
> You're just trying to be contrarian again.


Enma only feared the pain of clashing with Ksunagi. We saw realistically it didn’t even get scratched by it.

I can fear my friend punching me in the arm because it’s painful, that doesn’t mean someone who is stronger then my friend is going to be able to punch through my arm and straight through my body lol. 
—-
The portrayal is the author calling it Adamantium in the same DB that he calls the Third Raikage only Steel like durability. Or calling it Adamantium in the same DB he calls Kushina and Karin’s chains Adamantium which can hold back then 9-Tails and overcome attacks from Mokuton Buddha Megazord. Or it being used by Hiruzen against the 9-Tails itself. Or Enma being called the Strongest Summon, certainly due to this form.

Don’t know what else we need potrayal wise.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Enma only feared the pain of clashing with Ksunagi. We saw realistically it didn’t even get scratched by it



If you can take pain, you can certainly get scratched. Enma just did as well as he did because Hiruzen > Oro in CQC.



Turrin said:


> I can fear my friend punching me in the arm because it’s painful, that doesn’t mean someone who is stronger then my friend is going to be able to punch through my arm and straight through my body lol



No, but it also doesn't mean they can't. Susano'o is way stronger than Oro's arms.



Turrin said:


> —-
> The portrayal is the author calling it Adamantium in the same DB that he calls the Third Raikage only Steel like durability. Or calling it Adamantium in the same DB he calls Kushina and Karin’s chains Adamantium which can hold back then 9-Tails and overcome attacks from Mokuton Buddha Megazord. Or it being used by Hiruzen against the 9-Tails itself. Or Enma being called the Strongest Summon, certainly due to this form.



Going by this logic, A3, Kimimaro, and Base Guy all have equal durability because all three are likened to steel  


Gtfo with this nonsense 



Turrin said:


> Don’t know what else we need potrayal wise.



You're right. We have everything we need to conclude V4 Totsuka >>> Enma.


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> If you can take pain, you can certainly get scratched. Enma just did as well as he did because Hiruzen > Oro in CQC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Enma literally didn’t take a scratch though; and Hiruzen skill with it has no baring on whether it would be scratched or not when being smashed into the Ksunagi sword 

2) Okay so prove it can  

3) I didn’t say all character who are compared to Steel are equal, I said they are all inferior to Adamantium as the other is clearly hyping Adamantium above Steel level shit. So no

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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Enma literally didn’t take a scratch though; and Hiruzen skill with it has no baring on whether it would be scratched or not when being smashed into the Ksunagi sword
> 
> 2) Okay so prove it can
> 
> 3) I didn’t say all character who are compared to Steel are equal, I said they are all inferior to Adamantium as the other is clearly hyping Adamantium above Steel level shit. So no



1) Already addressed. Yes, Hiruzen's skill with it does matter. An expert with a rock can beat a novice with a shuriken, as Zetsu said. You can also just argue Hiruzen had more strength or whatever (chakra-enhanced, obviously).

2) Already done  

3) That sounds like cherrypicking on your part. You did tacitly concede that objects said to have durability comparable to steel or adamantine (not adamantium, adamantium is a Marvel Comics invention whereas adamantine is a mythical substance) differ in durability from even each other, so you already conceded that the usage of definitions doesn't mean shit other than to say "X is really durable".

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1) Already addressed. Yes, Hiruzen's skill with it does matter. An expert with a rock can beat a novice with a shuriken, as Zetsu said. You can also just argue Hiruzen had more strength or whatever (chakra-enhanced, obviously).
> 
> 2) Already done
> 
> 3) That sounds like cherrypicking on your part. You did tacitly concede that objects said to have durability comparable to steel or adamantine (not adamantium, adamantium is a Marvel Comics invention whereas adamantine is a mythical substance) differ in durability from even each other, so you already conceded that the usage of definitions doesn't mean shit other than to say "X is really durable".


1) Okay explain how his skill would matter in terms do Enma’s durability

2) Lol okay bruv, concession accepted 

3) Okay and that continues to be irrelevant to the point, that if the author calls something Adamantine it’s more durable then something he calls Steel. Which is why I’m not even bothering to debate the examples your being up since they don’t actually address the point at all


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## Kisame (Nov 15, 2022)

Itachi > Orochimaru > Hiruzen

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Okay explain how his skill would matter in terms do Enma’s durability



The same way superior skill allowed Sasuke's Sharingan to beat Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan  

Skill could allow Hiruzen to maybe increase his strength enough with chakra control to overpower Oro cleanly. 

Alternatively, superior skill could allow Hiruzen to deliver stronger hits with a weaker weapon, not unlike how some martial arts allow sufficiently skilled practitioners to override size gaps.



Turrin said:


> 2) Lol okay bruv, my concession is accepted



Yes  



Turrin said:


> 3) Okay and that continues to be irrelevant to the point, that if the author calls something Adamantine it’s more durable then something he calls Steel



Nope, very relevant. You already conceded that even objects Kishimoto likened to steel differ WILDLY in durability, so your argument already failed right there. 

You need to prove Kishimoto was thinking of saying Enma > A3's durability or something similarly ridiculous when he decided to call one "adamantine" or "steel". Even leaving aside the fact they got their durability hype in completely different Databooks (so a direct comparison makes no sense), A3 has _far_ better durability feats than fearing Kusanagi and you already conceded the Databook descriptions are not literal. If the descriptions are not literal, that raises the question if they can even be used for comparisons, matter of fact.

But I'll go even further. A TSB is stated to have enough power to destroy a forest. SCOR and Kirin are stated to have enough power to destroy a mountain and Base Guy's Konoha Hurricane is so strong (as per Databooks) that *no one* can supposedly withstand it. 

P1 Base Guy's Konoha Hurricane > Kirin > TSB confirmed?  



Turrin said:


> Which is why I’m not even bothering to debate the examples your being up since they don’t actually address the point at all



They do, but concession accepted.


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The same way superior skill allowed Sasuke's Sharingan to beat Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan
> 
> Skill could allow Hiruzen to maybe increase his strength enough with chakra control to overpower Oro cleanly.
> 
> ...


1) None of those points have anything to do with increasing Enma’s durability 

2) Glade we agree that you lost the point 

3) Still irrelevant to my point. Your complaining because things vary when called “Steel” durability doesn’t mean that something called Adamantine isn’t more durable then something called steel by the author. Also I never said I agree they vary widely anyway, I just didn’t even address those points because they continue to be irrelevant. If you want to disprove what I’m saying you have to show where something is called Steel and more durable then Adamantine. Or like something that’s called less durable then Steel is more durable.

Also Enma is called Adamantine in DB4, so no it’s not a different DB.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) None of those points have anything to do with increasing Enma’s durability



All of them do. If Hiruzen can output more chakra to increase his strength and enough to surpass Oro's strength, Hiruzen can beat Kusanagi with Enma while keeping Enma protected. To dumb it down even more, think of it like Trunks using a normal sword to cut Mecha Frieza apart. A normal sword is nothing to even _DB Goku_, but in the hands of a Super Saiyan...

A superior martial artist can deliver blows far more devastating than their strength alone would suggest. Hiruzen is a master of CQC and has been lauded for it in the Databooks multiple times over. 



Turrin said:


> 2) Glade we agree that I lost the point



And the plot  



Turrin said:


> 3) Still irrelevant to my point. Your complaining because things vary when called “Steel” durability doesn’t mean that something called Adamantine isn’t more durable then something called steel by the author



You need to prove something called adamantine is more durable than something called steel by the author. I don't know why you're asking me to prove a negative when you asserted the positive.



Turrin said:


> Also I never said I agree they vary widely anyway



So *Base Guy ~ A3 in *?  



Turrin said:


> I just didn’t even address those points because they continue to be inconvenient



I know. Concession accepted.

I literally used similar examples to what you have used, just replacing durability with DC or AP. 



Turrin said:


> Also Enma is called Adamantine in DB4, so no it’s not a different DB



True, but everything else I said stands.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> All of them do. If Hiruzen can output more chakra to increase his strength and enough to surpass Oro's strength, Hiruzen can beat Kusanagi with Enma while keeping Enma protected. To dumb it down even more, think of it like Trunks using a normal sword to cut Mecha Frieza apart. A normal sword is nothing to even _DB Goku_, but in the hands of a Super Saiyan...
> 
> A superior martial artist can deliver blows far more devastating than their strength alone would suggest. Hiruzen is a master of CQC and has been lauded for it in the Databooks multiple times over.
> 
> ...


1) If Hiruzen uses greater strength to smash Enma against Ksunagi, it should just be damaged more 

This isn’t DBz, no matter how much you want Zenkai to be real 

2) Are you making the claim that Kishimoto doesn’t understand the difference in durability between Steel and Adamantine. Because otherwise I shouldn’t have a burden to prove something that’s common sense. Next you’ll be asking me to prove Kishimoto understands Gravity

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## olorun (Nov 16, 2022)

Hiruzen was holding back against orochimaru. Massively. Itachi can beat him but I have hiruzen slightly above him. Imo itachi In terms of the homage goes. Hashirama>tobirama~hiruzen>kcm minato>Itachi>minato>tsunade.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 16, 2022)

Azula said:


> Susano can be melted with katon jutsu, broken through with fuuton jutsu (like Danzo).
> 
> Itachi can be attacked from below the ground using doton jutsu.


You present me a single katon feat that implies this and I’ll ask to be banned for a year

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) If Hiruzen uses greater strength to smash Enma against Ksunagi, it should just be damaged more



The same way Trunks's sword was against Mecha Frieza?  



Turrin said:


> This isn’t DBz, no matter how much you want Zenkai to be real



Nice strawman and attempt to poison the well. Ninja amping their weapons with chakra is at least implied, given we have stuff like Sasuke using his Kusanagi to pierce Juudara and clash with Transformed Momoshiki's chakra blade.



Turrin said:


> 2) Are you making the claim that Kishimoto doesn’t understand the difference in durability between Steel and Adamantine



No, I'm making the claim you can't read.



Turrin said:


> Because otherwise I shouldn’t have a burden to prove something that’s common sense



You have to prove Kishimoto called Enma "adamantine staff" because he wanted to say it was more durable than A3.



Turrin said:


> Next you’ll be asking me to prove Kishimoto understands Gravity



No, don't worry about that


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The same way Trunks's sword was against Mecha Frieza?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Show me where Hiruzen uses chakra flow to Amp Enma then 

Also this still wouldn’t change anything, as if Hiruzen is constantly amping Enma with chakra flow, he would have the same durability regardless 

2) Yes which is asking me to prove that Kishimoto understands the difference in durability between Adamantine and Steel.

As Kishimoto not understanding the difference, is the only rational reason that can be provided for why he would use Adamantine to explain the durability of something to readers that’s actually inferior durability wise to something he uses steel to explain the durability of to readers in the same exact source material 

I have no obligation to prove this. You have an obligation to show he doesn’t, which can be simply achieved by you giving a relevant example where he uses a more durable material to explain the durability of one object which is actually less durable then another object he uses a less durable material to explain.

I’m not even saying your necessarily wrong as I haven’t memorized the DBs in their entirety, I’m just asking for an actually relevant example from you

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Show me where Hiruzen uses chakra flow to Amp Enma then



It's not something that needs to be shown, it's something any ninja can do and does.



Turrin said:


> Also this still wouldn’t change anything, as if Hiruzen is constantly amping Enma with chakra flow, he would have the same durability regardless



This doesn't even make sense. Enma with chakra flow >>> Enma without.



Turrin said:


> 2) Yes which is asking me to prove that Kishimoto understands the difference in durability between Adamantine and Steel



No, you made that up. I am asking you to prove Kishimoto made this comparison with the intent of saying everything that he compared to steel < everything compared to adamantine.



Turrin said:


> As Kishimoto not understanding the difference, is the only rational reason that can be provided for why he would use Adamantine to explain the durability of something to readers that’s actually inferior durability wise to something he uses steel to explain the durability of to readers in the same exact source material



I think he understands the difference just fine. What I don't think is that he takes it anywhere as seriously as you do. It's as simple as this: Kishimoto doesn't care.

Again, unless you think Base Guy is as durable as A3 (a question you ducked responding to in spite of both men being compared to steel, and hence conceded), it is as clear as day Kishimoto's statements are not at all meant to be literal, let alone be literal enough to be used for comparison.



Turrin said:


> I have no obligation to prove this. You have an obligation to show he doesn’t



You made the positive argument, so by definition, the burden of proof is yours.

I already disproved your argument in spite of having no responsibility to, by the way.



Turrin said:


> which can be simply achieved by you giving a relevant example where he uses a more durable material to explain the durability of one object which is actually less durable then another object he uses a less durable material to explain.





Turrin said:


> I’m not even saying your necessarily wrong as I haven’t memorized the DBs in their entirety, I’m just asking for an actually relevant example from you



I provided plenty, actually 

Still waiting for a response on those


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's not something that needs to be shown, it's something any ninja can do and does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Where is it stated every Ninja constantly enchants their weapons with chakra. Every instance I can recall we are specifically shown the weapons are enchanted with an aura like the Samurai Swords or Sasuke’s Chidori Katana 

2) Okay and if Hiruzen is constantly using chakra flow on Enma, why does it matter 

3) Aegon why else would he use a different harder substance to describe one thing in the same data-book he uses a weaker substance to describe another thing ? I’m genuinely curious as to what reasoning you think Kishi applied there?

4) You can think he doesn’t take it seriously all you want, but if your not presenting any evidence of that then what you think doesn’t matter to me 

For me if an author goes out of his way to use a different word to describe something, he clearly cares since he is taking the time to use a different term 

5) I made the argument that he calls Enma more durable in the DB then A3. I’ve already fulfilled the burden of proof there by showing that A3 was called “steel”, while Enma was called “Adamantine”, which is harder then steel 

You then made the positive argument that what’s written in the DB is wrong, because Kishimooto doesn’t take it as seriously as me and will on a whim use a word that Detonates higher durability on an object that is actually less durable then one he uses a word that dentonates lower durability to describe.

To which I’ve asked you for proof of this 5 times now, which you haven’t provided

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 16, 2022)

@Turrin Still don't see an answer from you to any of my questions. And you ask me for proof?


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Turrin Still don't see an answer from you to any of my questions. And you ask me for proof?


Concession Accepted as usual Aegon

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Accept my concession as usual Aegon



With pleasure


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> With pleasure


You misquoting my post really doesn’t change the fact that you lost the debate, since your refusing to provide any evidence for your assertion that Kishimoto doesn’t care and the DB is wrong. So it’s all good man, everyone can see that too


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## Tri (Nov 16, 2022)

Kisame said:


> Itachi > Orochimaru > Hiruzen


It’s like, such a simple conclusion too lol. Oro was sitting there like the villain he is lookin at his edos, no manda, no yamata, and barely even really did anything besides defend himself towards the end of the fight and _still won. _Oro’s fucking trump card got obliterated by a deathbed and blind Itachi who had _already _casually subdued Oro earlier in the manga. Like it’s such a straight forward line in terms of the power scale between these characters.


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## Trojan (Nov 16, 2022)

Tri said:


> It’s like, such a simple conclusion too lol. Oro was sitting there like the villain he is lookin at his edos, no manda, no yamata, and barely even really did anything besides defend himself towards the end of the fight and _still won. _Oro’s fucking trump card got obliterated by a deathbed and blind Itachi who had _already _casually subdued Oro earlier in the manga. Like it’s such a straight forward line in terms of the power scale between these characters.


you forgot to mention that caused itachi's death as well...


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Tri said:


> It’s like, such a simple conclusion too lol. Oro was sitting there like the villain he is lookin at his edos, no manda, no yamata, and barely even really did anything besides defend himself towards the end of the fight and _still won. _Oro’s fucking trump card got obliterated by a deathbed and blind Itachi who had _already _casually subdued Oro earlier in the manga. Like it’s such a straight forward line in terms of the power scale between these characters.


It’s straight forward when you ignore the 2 Edo Hokage.

Same way it’s straight forward to say Itachi > Orochimaru > Madara

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kisame (Nov 16, 2022)

Tri said:


> It’s like, such a simple conclusion too lol. Oro was sitting there like the villain he is lookin at his edos, no manda, no yamata, and barely even really did anything besides defend himself towards the end of the fight and _still won. _Oro’s fucking trump card got obliterated by a deathbed and blind Itachi who had _already _casually subdued Oro earlier in the manga. Like it’s such a straight forward line in terms of the power scale between these characters.


Not only the performances, but Hiruzen admitted inferiority to Orochimaru and the latter did the same with Itachi.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> You quoting my post really doesn’t change the fact that you won the debate



Does this make you mad? 



Turrin said:


> since your refusing to provide any evidence for your assertion that Kishimoto doesn’t care and the DB is wrong. So it’s all good man, everyone can see that too



Yes, everyone can see everything we have discussed and the fact you purposefully ducked rather than addressing any of my counter-examples. Also, it's "you're".


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Does this make you mad?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, everyone can see everything we have discussed and the fact you purposefully ducked rather than addressing any of my counter-examples. Also, it's "you're".


You didn’t provide any counter examples though, despite me asking you 5 times specifically to do that. Otherwise feel free to show me any example of Kishi comparing soemthing to a more durable metal, when it’s weaker then something compared to a less durable metal.

The door is still open for you to bring something relevant to the table Aegon


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Kisame said:


> Not only the performances, but Hiruzen admitted inferiority to Orochimaru and the latter did the same with Itachi.


He said he might not be able to stop Orochimaru; and then proceeds to stop him and 2 Hokage. Clearly he was wrong and every other statement in canon supports this placing Hiruzen above all the Gokage, Hokage, and Orochimaru directly


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## Trojan (Nov 16, 2022)

Kisame said:


> Not only the performances, but Hiruzen admitted inferiority to Orochimaru and the latter did the same with Itachi.


you forgot to mention the fact that the Oro who admitted to be inferior to itachi is the one who had lost all of his jutsu tho.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Kage 1


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## Tri (Nov 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s straight forward when you ignore the 2 Edo Hokage.
> 
> Same way it’s straight forward to say Itachi > Orochimaru > Madara


Why do you keep parroting this? The part 1 Edos are no where near their part 2 or living selves and Oro wasn’t even fucking engaging Hiruzen in any meaningful way. He barely fought Hiruzen himself and at no point was he pressed until Hiruzen literally kamikazed himself and still lost. This is also ignoring Hiruzen outright said he was weaker than Oro (which was obvious if you have base level reading comprehension anyway) and Oro admitted inferiority to Itachi. You’re trying so hard to deny what the manga makes so obvious dude.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Tri said:


> Why do you keep parroting this? The part 1 Edos are no where near their part 2 or living selves and Oro wasn’t even fucking engaging Hiruzen in any meaningful way. He barely fought Hiruzen himself and at no point was he pressed until Hiruzen literally kamikazed himself and still lost. This is also ignoring Hiruzen outright said he was weaker than Oro (which was obvious if you have base level reading comprehension anyway) and Oro admitted inferiority to Itachi. You’re trying so hard to deny what the manga makes so obvious dude.


Because you keep responding with an answer that irrelevant to the point being made. P1 Edos being weaker then their P2 selves doesn’t change the fact that Hiruzen had to fight them and not just Orochimaru. So you can’t just say Orochimaru is stronger when he had extreme amounts of help.
——
Hiruzen never said that so I’m not ignoring anything 

However the author does directly state Hiruzen is strongest Ninja and therefore above Orochimaru:


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## Tri (Nov 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Because you keep responding with an answer that irrelevant to the point being made. P1 Edos being weaker then their P2 selves doesn’t change the fact that Hiruzen had to fight them and not just Orochimaru. So you can’t just say Orochimaru is stronger when he had extreme amounts of help.


Dude you’re actually trolling, like I cannot fathom any other way for you to be repeating this shit and wanking Hiruzen like this when I keep telling you the same fucking shit. Oro did _below _the bare minimum in that fight. Oro fucking exerted more energy removing his own face then he did fighting Hiruzen until Hiruzen literally _failed _to seal him and died. Oro was a _non_ factor in the fight and Hiruzen _still lost _to essentially just the Edos while Oro twiddled his thumbs cause he didn’t perceive Hiruzen as enough of a threat which he was proven partially right besides Hiruzen suiciding himself to take Oro’s arms lol.

Hiruzen was in need of his oatmeal after 5 jutsu or some shit was was visibly tired and was like shit I’m getting my ass beat rn gotta kamikaze. Hiruzen and his boys got fucking off paneled diffed by Oro _without _his edos in the flash back. And before you go “Hiruzen wasn’t trying to kill Oro!!!’” well clearly neither was Oro trying to kill Hiruzen given he was still alive and was like “I’ll kill you now Oro!!!” with a suicide technique and he still fucking _failed _lmao.


Turrin said:


> However the author does directly state Hiruzen is strongest Ninja and therefore above Orochimaru:




You _really _want to go the “take databook and manga statements at face value” route with _Itachi_?? Like I want you to really think about how easily your argument falls apart when we’re doing this with Itachi of all characters…Like this legitimately doesn’t need any kind of retort bruh this is such -snip- thing to do.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2022)

Tri said:


> Dude you’re actually trolling, like I cannot fathom any other way for you to be repeating this shit and wanking Hiruzen like this when I keep telling you the same fucking shit. Oro did _below _the bare minimum in that fight. Oro fucking exerted more energy removing his own face then he did fighting Hiruzen until Hiruzen literally _failed _to seal him and died. Oro was a _non_ factor in the fight and Hiruzen _still lost _to essentially just the Edos while Oro twiddled his thumbs cause he didn’t perceive Hiruzen as enough of a threat which he was proven partially right besides Hiruzen suiciding himself to take Oro’s arms lol.
> 
> Hiruzen was in need of his oatmeal after 5 jutsu or some shit was was visibly tired and was like shit I’m getting my ass beat rn gotta kamikaze. Hiruzen and his boys got fucking off paneled diffed by Oro in the flash back. And before you go “Hiruzen wasn’t trying to kill Oro!!!’” well clearly neither was Oro trying to kill Hiruzen given he was still alive and was like “I’ll kill you now Oro!!!” with a suicide technique and he still fucking _failed _lmao.
> 
> ...


It’s simple the shit you keep telling me is irrelevant to anything I’m saying. Your tangent about how much Orochimaru got involved in the fight when the Edo Hokages we’re fighting Hiruzen, does literally nothing to change the fact that Hiruzen had to fight the Edo Hokage.

This is why I keep bring up the Madara point, because Orochimaru didn’t even lift a single finger against Madara, Edo Hashirama did all of the work. But if we go with your premise Orochimaru > Madara by ignoring that Madara had to fight Edo Hashirama, not Orochimaru.
—-
Your the one who brought up Manga statements with Hiruzen’s statement about Orochimaru, now I bring up one that runs contrary to that and you are like how dare you bring up Statements


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> You didn’t provide any counter examples though, despite me asking you 5 times specifically to do that



Lying will get you nowhere.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nope, very relevant. You already conceded that even objects Kishimoto likened to steel differ WILDLY in durability, so your argument already failed right there.
> 
> You need to prove Kishimoto was thinking of saying Enma > A3's durability or something similarly ridiculous when he decided to call one "adamantine" or "steel". Even leaving aside the fact they got their durability hype in completely different Databooks (so a direct comparison makes no sense), A3 has _far_ better durability feats than fearing Kusanagi and you already conceded the Databook descriptions are not literal. If the descriptions are not literal, that raises the question if they can even be used for comparisons, matter of fact.
> 
> ...


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## Tri (Nov 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s simple the shit you keep telling me is irrelevant to anything I’m saying. Your tangent about how much Orochimaru got involved in the fight when the Edo Hokages we’re fighting Hiruzen, does literally nothing to change the fact that Hiruzen had to fight the Edo Hokage.
> 
> This is why I keep bring up the Madara point, because Orochimaru didn’t even lift a single finger against Madara, Edo Hashirama did all of the work. But if we go with your premise Orochimaru > Madara by ignoring that Madara had to fight Edo Hashirama, not Orochimaru.


You’re sidestepping that Oro _already _beat Hiruzen without any issues in the manga and had Hiruzen stating he’ll kill him this time when Hiruzen was using his self proclaimed kamikaze trump card and he still didn’t kill Oro….

I don’t really remember the intricacies of the war arc or whether or not Madara and Oro even had any type of confrontation but this is such a fucking idiotic comparison when against Hiruzen, Oro was like 5 feet behind his edos who are significantly weaker than Oro and their part 2 selves and he could’ve helped at any point if he felt the need to as opposed to Madara where Oro would’ve been fucking useless and was never really in any substantial position (like being literal feet away from the fight) to help to begin with. Like this is baseline reading comprehension man that anyone who isn’t putting their heart and soul into wanking Hiruzen could understand….


Turrin said:


> Your the one who brought up Manga statements with Hiruzen’s statement about Orochimaru, now I bring up one that runs contrary to that and you are like how dare you bring up Statements


???

You brought up a databook statement and took that shit at face value for your point. No one is pressed about you bringing up statements, it’s the fact you think presenting these things at face value somehow bolsters your argument for Hiruzen here when Itachi of all characters is the opponent in question for Hiruzen.

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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Lying will get you nowhere.


Aegon those examples have nothing to do with Kishimoto describing durability. There first two describe destructive capability over area of effect and the last one attack potency. So they aren’t relevant.

Also your conclusions drawn are not correct. A Forest can be much bigger then a mountain as it can span multiple mountains, and even if it wasn’t TSO haven’t shown a large area of effect, so it isn’t really surprising if their destructive capacity over an area of effect is smaller then Jutsu shown to have the dc and area of effect to destroy mountains.

The guy example is attack potency based, which is not the same as DC over area of effect, as it’s not talking about what Gai can destroy, but just have effective his attack would be on a person. So it isn’t comparable to the other 2 descriptions at all as they are measuring separate things. Additionally the Gai statement is a debunkable hyperbola as we know character can get hit with it without dying. As opposed to Enma who has no anti-feats to indicate it’s Adamantine hype is hyperbolic. As it’s blocked everything ever thrown at it without even being scratched.

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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Tri said:


> You’re sidestepping that Oro _already _beat Hiruzen without any issues in the manga and had Hiruzen stating he’ll kill him this time when Hiruzen was using his self proclaimed kamikaze trump card and he still didn’t kill Oro….
> 
> I don’t really remember the intricacies of the war arc or whether or not Madara and Oro even had any type of confrontation but this is such a fucking idiotic comparison when against Hiruzen, Oro was like 5 feet behind his edos who are significantly weaker than Oro and their part 2 selves and he could’ve helped at any point if he felt the need to as opposed to Madara where Oro would’ve been fucking useless and was never really in any substantial position (like being literal feet away from the fight) to help to begin with. Like this is baseline reading comprehension man that anyone who isn’t putting their heart and soul into wanking Hiruzen could understand….
> 
> ...


1) Orochimaru loosing his arms is beating someone without any issues 

Also I’m not side-stepping that Hiruzen fought Orochimaru. Your side stepping that he fought two Edo Hokage before this 

2) Again the amount Orochimaru can help or how close he is in strength to Madara in contrast to the P1 Edo Hokage is irrelevant to the point I’m making. All that matters here is that in both cases Madara and Hiruzen had to fight other individuals then Orochimaru, so you can’t just treat the fight as if it was Madara/Hiruzen vs only Orochimaru.

3) You brought up Hiruzen’s statement to Anko that he might not be able to stop Orochimaru and took it at face value, rather then looking at what actually happened in the Manga. Hiruzen did stop Orochimaru’s invasion of the village 

So you are doing the same thing taking statements at face value. Also Hiruzen is one of the few character who would curb stomp Itachi in the statement at face value contest


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Aegon those examples have nothing to do with Kishimoto describing durability



They don't have to. Your contention was that Kishimoto's descriptions have to be literal and comparative, when everything says the opposite.



Turrin said:


> There first two describe destructive capability over area of effect and the last one attack potency. So they aren’t relevant



More like they're inconvenient.

Keep ducking.



Turrin said:


> Also your conclusions drawn are not correct. A Forest can be much bigger then a mountain as it can span multiple mountains



Can be =/ generally is. Mountains traditionally dwarf forests.

I could easily argue steel can be harder to destroy than adamantine if it's reinforced by stronger chakra.



Turrin said:


> and even if it wasn’t TSO haven’t shown a large area of effect, so it isn’t really surprising if their destructive capacity over an area of effect is smaller then Jutsu shown to have the dc and area of effect to destroy mountains



It was talking about _power_, not destructive capacity specifically. Power can include (and if anything, is more likely to even simply be). Don't add things out of nowhere.



Turrin said:


> The guy example is attack potency based, which is not the same as DC over area of effect, as it’s not talking about what Gai can destroy, but just have effective his attack would be on a person. So it isn’t comparable to the other 2 descriptions at all as they are measuring separate things.



More irrelevant claptrap. Get to the point.



Turrin said:


> Additionally the Gai statement is a debunkable hyperbola as we know character can get hit with it without dying



Concession accepted that Databook statements can be hyperbolic and wrong.

All the more reason not to blindly use them to compare.



Turrin said:


> As opposed to Enma who has no anti-feats to indicate it’s Adamantine hype is hyperbolic



It sure has _anti-hype_ and I trust Enma's opinion of his own defenses over yours.


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## t0xeus (Nov 17, 2022)

Itachi can copy any Katon/Suiton jutsu Hiruzen uses with 3T. With that, most of Hiruzen's arsenal is gone.

He doesn't need MS here. Genjutsu suffices.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Itachi can copy any Katon/Suiton jutsu Hiruzen uses with 3T. With that, most of Hiruzen's arsenal is gone.
> 
> He doesn't need MS here. Genjutsu suffices.


3rd has 5 in Genjutsu


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## t0xeus (Nov 17, 2022)

Trojan said:


> 3rd has 5 in Genjutsu


Kurenai as well, yet she's getting trash-diffed as seen in manga.

Hiruzen and Kurenai likely have 5 in Genjutsu due to their knowledge of it, while Itachi has 5/5 in Genjutsu due to his mastery.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 17, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Kurenai as well, yet she's getting trash-diffed as seen in manga.
> 
> Hiruzen and Kurenai likely have 5 in Genjutsu due to their knowledge of it, while Itachi has 5/5 in Genjutsu due to his mastery.



5 is just the highest possible stat, it doesn't mean all 5s are equal. Itachi also has a massive amplifier in the Sharingan that isn't recorded in the Databook stats.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 5 is just the highest possible stat, it doesn't mean all 5s are equal. Itachi also has a massive amplifier in the Sharingan that isn't recorded in the Databook stats.


You're right. But also.. he isn't going to accept that argument. I know how to handle Hussain, leave him to me.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Kurenai as well, yet she's getting trash-diffed as seen in manga.
> 
> Hiruzen and Kurenai likely have 5 in Genjutsu due to their knowledge of it, while Itachi has 5/5 in Genjutsu due to his mastery.


Kurani freed herself from his Genjutsu 
Way to shoot yourself in the foot


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## t0xeus (Nov 17, 2022)

Trojan said:


> Kurani freed herself from his Genjutsu


But still got caught which left her open to an attack.


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> But still got caught which left her open to an attack.


Actually she dodged his attempt to beheads her 
And defended herself perfectly fine 

since he couldn’t do it against a featless fodder who just got to be Jonin 

he stands no chance here 

anyway have to go 

later


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## t0xeus (Nov 17, 2022)

Trojan said:


> Actually she dodged his attempt to beheads her
> And defended herself perfectly fine
> 
> since he couldn’t do it against a featless fodder who just got to be Jonin
> ...


Kurenai is the best Genjutsu user in Konoha though according to DB.  

So if she barely managed to release it in time, Hiruzen will get hit.  


Trojan said:


> anyway have to go
> 
> later


Good bye


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Kurenai is the best Genjutsu user in Konoha though according to DB.
> 
> So if she barely managed to release it in time, Hiruzen will get hit.
> 
> Good bye


don't remember her having that hype, but if she does, then that puts her above itachi.
which means it's irrelevant here...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 17, 2022)

Trojan said:


> don't remember her having that hype, but if she does, then that puts her above itachi.
> which means it's irrelevant here...


Itachi isn't apart of Konoha.


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Itachi isn't apart of Konoha.


of course he is, have you forgotten that he is a spy?

and in his fight Vs Kabuto he said "I am uchiha Itachi of the leaf" or something to that effect...


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## t0xeus (Nov 17, 2022)

Trojan said:


> of course he is, have you forgotten that he is a spy?
> 
> and in his fight Vs Kabuto he said "I am uchiha Itachi of the leaf" or something to that effect...


So Kurenai barely broke out of his Genjutsu despite being better than him at Genjutsu, I am not liking Hiruzen's chances who is still inferior to Kurenai.


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## blk (Nov 17, 2022)

Well going by narrative Itachi is significantly above Orochimaru, who is in turn above Old Hiruzen.

Feats wise Susanoo with mystic tools decimates.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> So Kurenai barely broke out of his Genjutsu despite being better than him at Genjutsu, I am not liking Hiruzen's chances who is still inferior to Kurenai.


not sure what is your definition of "barely".  
he put her in Genjutsu, she broke it, and dodge his following attack...
it's not like she got stuck in that Genjutsu for an entire day or something...


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2022)

btw, @t0xeus I searched her DB, and as expected, your statement was a fanfiction...  

DB1



DB2



DB3


DB4:



I don't see where was she called the strongest Genjutsu user...


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## t0xeus (Nov 17, 2022)

Trojan said:


> btw, @t0xeus I searched her DB, and as expected, your statement was a fanfiction...
> 
> DB1
> 
> ...


Wdym as you expected  

Anyways seems like I am the victim here. I fell prey to zoomer naruto fans propaganda  



Upon research it seems like the only place where she is called top konoha genjutsu user is Konoha Shinden..

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Hiruzen never said that so I’m not ignoring anything



Itachi shit diffs. 

It's funny you make this lie, I have been rewatching original Naruto over the past couple weeks.

Last night while Naruto is training with Jiraiya to learn the summoning Jutsu, it cuts to a scene of Anko and Hiruzen talking. Hiruzen asks Anko if she blames herself for failing to kill Orochimaru, then tells her to not, because he doesn't believe anyone in the leaf, *INCLUDING HIMSELF *could beat Orochimaru at that time.

Obviously, that doesn't tell all because he doesn't know the limits of everyone in the leaf, such as Gai, but it definitely means he estimated Orochimaru was stronger than him at that time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Azula (Nov 17, 2022)

Hiruzen is the master of all 3 types of fighting- ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu.

The Senju clan was the expert of all 3, they were known as the clan of 1000 skills.

Senju clan's successor, Hiruzen is known as the master of 1000 skills. Hiruzen surpassed the Senju clan.


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> They don't have to. Your contention was that Kishimoto's descriptions have to be literal and comparative, when everything says the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Never said they have to be literal. Descriptions can be figurative to convey a meaning as well. The issue of contention here isn’t if they are figurative or literal, it’s whether Kishi would call something literally/figuratively more durable then something he calls less durable.

And there is no debate about things comparative as the whole point of using an description word whether literal or figurative , is literally to compare what is being describe to the word being used 

2) I never argued generally is, so that’s irrelevant. What I said, was a Forest can be bigger then a Mountain, and in-fact the biggest Forrests are way bigger then Mountains. So we just don’t know what Kishimoto is saying here because we don’t know if he’s talk Max Size, Average, or Minimum. It’s just not a good counter example to use period 

3) What you were talking about is irrelevant. What matters is what Kishimoto is talking about in the DB, as your trying to establish it’s wrong. But if Kishi is talking about DC over AoE, then even if he’s talking about a small forest he’s correct as TSO don’t have great DC over AoE

4) I never said DB statements can’t be proven hyperbolic and wrong,. The issue is that you have provided zero proof the Enma statement is hyperbolic 

5) And what would that Anti-Feat be, not getting a single scratch against a legendary sword

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Itachi shit diffs.
> 
> It's funny you make this lie, I have been rewatching original Naruto over the past couple weeks.
> 
> ...


He says he *might* not be able to stop Orochimaru, but then does. So try again

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Never said they have to be literal. Descriptions can be figurative to convey a meaning as well



True, but if they're not literal, that defeats the point of a comparison unless there is actual proof that even their figurative descriptions are meant to be compared.



Turrin said:


> The issue of contention here isn’t if they are figurative or literal, it’s whether Kishi would call something literally/figuratively more durable then something he calls less durable



Well, he clearly would. Plenty of times over. Why? He doesn't care about this shit.



Turrin said:


> And there is no debate about things comparative as the whole point of using an description word whether literal or figurative , is literally to compare what is being describe to the word being used



You need to prove they are _meant_ to be compared in the first place. Not only are they *not* directly compared (in which case you would have been correct), you also conceded that hyperboles exist, meaning that there is no guarantee that what is being described is anywhere close to the word being used to describe it.



Turrin said:


> 2) I never argued generally is, so that’s irrelevant



Then concession accepted, as most would argue and agree forests are smaller. 



Turrin said:


> What I said, was a Forest can be bigger then a Mountain, and in-fact the biggest Forrests are way bigger then Mountains. So we just don’t know what Kishimoto is saying here because we don’t know if he’s talk Max Size, Average, or Minimum. It’s just not a good counter example to use period



Then I can easily argue your "steel" and "adamantine" argument is also trash as adamantine doesn't even fucking exist (so it could be anywhere from maybe barely stronger than steel to only 2x more so) and elements like chakra flow could easily compensate for other differences.



Turrin said:


> 3) What you were talking about is irrelevant. What matters is what Kishimoto is talking about in the DB, as your trying to establish it’s wrong. But if Kishi is talking about DC over AoE, then even if he’s talking about a small forest he’s correct as TSO don’t have great DC over AoE



Kishi never used the word destructive capacity there, he used the word *power*. Power can easily mean attack potency too. Do not move the goalposts.



Turrin said:


> 4) I never said DB statements can’t be proven hyperbolic and wrong



You sure are acting like it. You're taking descriptive statements _quasi-literally_ when it's clear so many of them are not meant to be and in this particular case, absolutely are not meant to be.



Turrin said:


> The issue is that you have provided zero proof the Enma statement is hyperbolic



IIRC, I never said Enma's statement is hyperbolic, I said your interpretation of the statement is dishonest and wrong and not even supported by the Databooks. 

I have provided plenty of proof that A3's durability far exceeds its "steel" descriptor and Enma's durability, on the other hand.



Turrin said:


> 5) And what would that Anti-Feat be, fearing soreness against a legendary sword far weaker than Sasuke's Chidorigatana that literally bounced off a less durable Raikage



Well, yes.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> He says he *might* not be able to stop Orochimaru, but then *dies while failing to stop an Orochimaru that was dicking around*. So try again



FTFY


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> He says he *might* not be able to stop Orochimaru, but then does. So try again



Also, he actually failed, as Oro lived to fight another day (and take Sasuke, by the way) whereas Hiruzen died. At best, he pushed Oro to extreme diff.


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## Tri (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Orochimaru loosing his arms is beating someone without any issues


I’m talking about the flashback where Oro beat Hiruzen with enma and a few anbu ninjas asses with a big cheesy grin on his face  which lead into the present Hiruzen saying he’d kill Orochimaru this time while using his suicide trump card which he failed at btw.


Turrin said:


> 2) Again the amount Orochimaru can help or how close he is in strength to Madara in contrast to the P1 Edo Hokage is irrelevant to the point I’m making. All that matters here is that in both cases Madara and Hiruzen had to fight other individuals then Orochimaru, so you can’t just treat the fight as if it was Madara/Hiruzen vs only Orochimaru.


Bruh you’re just not getting it. The fight was 2 heavily nerfed edos and _at best _1/8th of Orochimaru. I’m treating the fight as Oro did where he basically acted like he was sight seeing at the zoo while Hiruzen got gassed doing a few jutsus. Everyone understands Hiruzen didn’t fight just Oro, what you don’t understand is that Hiruzen was getting tossed around while Oro did nothing because he just didn’t think Hiruzen wasn’t any type of threat.


Turrin said:


> 3) You brought up Hiruzen’s statement to Anko that he might not be able to stop Orochimaru and took it at face value, rather then looking at what actually happened in the Manga. Hiruzen did stop Orochimaru’s invasion of the village
> 
> So you are doing the same thing taking statements at face value. Also Hiruzen is one of the few character who would curb stomp Itachi in the statement at face value contest


He outright failed to kill an Oro with a thumb up his ass fucking around who would later commit more shenanigans against Konoha while Hiruzen was dead and gone so he didn’t exactly do a great job at stopping Oro, like this isn’t taking anything at face value as we literally have the manga show us Hiruzen failed lol.

Itachi literally has Kaguya’s will say he’s invincible, like the dude has god’s actual will say “yeah bruh he ain’t dying” there’s literally nothing Hiruzen has that beats that and this is fucking stupid to begin with as no one should be taking these things at face value.


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> FTFY


So he was wrong he could stop Orochimaru. Try harder


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, he actually failed, as Oro lived to fight another day (and take Sasuke, by the way) whereas Hiruzen died. At best, he pushed Oro to extreme diff.


His objective was to stop the invasion so he succeeded


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> So he was wrong he could stop Orochimaru. Try harder



I don't need to, your delusional ass lost. I won't ever get you to admit it and I get that now. But I don't need to when everyone else in the chat knows it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> True, but if they're not literal, that defeats the point of a comparison unless there is actual proof that even their figurative descriptions are meant to be compared.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) No it doesn’t. You can use figurative comparison to still illustrate a point; and if one figurative comparison is of a higher order then another, the point being illustrated is one of higher durability 💁‍♂

2) Okay then give me even one example of such a durability comparison 

3) No Aegon a comparison in the context your talking about is not necessary. An author doesn’t have to directly say X>Y, when he assigns X directly a value > Y.

For example A4’s chakra is assigned the value of Bijuu level by the Author and BoS Kakashi’s chakra is assigned the value of 1/4 Base Naruto’s supply. We know based on the values assigned to their chakra supplies  via the author’s descriptions of them the A4 has way more chakra then BoS Kakashi. We don’t need a statement from Kishimoto directly say A4 has more chakra then BoS Kakashi

4) What does Adamantine not being real have to do with the fact that Forests can be larger then Mountain 

Anyway Adamatine doesn’t need to be real for it to be used as descriptive word in fiction to describe something’s durability. We know this because that’s precisely what Kishimoto is doing when he calls Enma Adamantine 

5) We have already been over this chakra flow point. If Hiruzen is constantly flowing chakra to Enma why does it matter

6) Aegon all power means is “the ability to do something”. So the usage of power here can simply mean the ability to destroy a certain area/AoE. 

7) If your not arguing Enma’s statement is hyperbolic, then your Gai example is irrelevant as I said 

8) We’ll first off there are many different types of steel with different durabilities . Do you have evidence A3 for sure scales above the strongest type of steel. I’m generally not sure on that which is why I’m asking 


However as ultimately it’s irrelevant whether A3 is >= to real world steel is irrelevant, because the comparison can simply metaphorical in nature. What matters is Kishi is using a higher order metaphor for Enma then A3, which still indicates Kishi’s intent that Enma is more durable


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> His objective was to stop Orochimaru



Fixed. The invasion was a later thing he was worried about but didn't know would necessarily happen.



Turrin said:


> so he succeeded



Still lost to Orochimaru though


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) No it doesn’t. You can use figurative comparison to still illustrate a point



Clearly not, as both Base Guy and A3 have bodies of steel according to your "figurative comparisons". Even things described by the _same_ moniker diverge wildly in durability 



Turrin said:


> and if one figurative comparison is of a higher order then another, the point being illustrated is one of higher durability 💁‍♂



Only if the comparison is being made *directly* between them...which is not the case, as DB4 never makes a direct comparison between Enma and A3.



Turrin said:


> 2) Okay then give me even one example of such a durability comparison



Why does it have to be a durability comparison? Never mind the fact I already debunked your nonsense by proving (and receiving your concession) that:

*A*) Descriptive terms are often hyperbolic (which means they should be taken with a grain of salt, and any comparison involving them is automatically also rather shaky for said reason)

*B*) Objects described the _same_ way in the Databook can and do differ greatly in quality (so descriptive terms are basically random flowery *garbage* rather than anything useful or meaningful; in fact, given that the manga > the DBs, you need to prove this is actually concrete or reliable information)



Turrin said:


> 3) No Aegon a comparison in the context your talking about is not necessary. An author doesn’t have to directly say X>Y, when he assigns X directly a value > Y



He didn't ascribe any "values". That's the problem. Trying to equate random words from a source notorious for hyperbole to straight up mathematical figures is stupid.



Turrin said:


> For example A4’s chakra is assigned the value of Bijuu level by the Author and BoS Kakashi’s chakra is assigned the value of 1/4 Base Naruto’s supply. We know based on the values assigned to their chakra supplies  via the author’s descriptions of them the A4 has way more chakra then BoS Kakashi. We don’t need a statement from Kishimoto directly say A4 has more chakra then BoS Kakashi



Awful comparison, as.Kakashi literally tells us that his chakra is 1/4th of Naruto's (ergo, he gives us a _mathematical_ answer).



Turrin said:


> 4) What does Adamantine not being real have to do with the fact that Forests can be larger then Mountain



The fact you don't know what you're talking about, as usual. Heck, adamantine could be _weaker_ than steel in Naruto logic too. Who are you to say otherwise?



Turrin said:


> Anyway Adamatine doesn’t need to be real for it to be used as descriptive word in fiction to describe something’s durability



But if it has no measurable properties or actual feats, it's kinda worthless as a descriptive term at the end of the day.



Turrin said:


> We know this because that’s precisely what Kishimoto is doing when he calls Enma Adamantine
> 
> 5) We have already been over this chakra flow point. If Hiruzen is constantly flowing chakra to Enma why does it matter



Because A3 >>> Hiruzen in chakra flow  



Turrin said:


> 6) Aegon all power means is “the ability to do something”. So the usage of power here can simply mean the ability to destroy a certain area/AoE.



Prove that it means AoE.

It can just as easily mean potency.



Turrin said:


> 7) If your not arguing Enma’s statement is hyperbolic, then your Gai example is irrelevant as I said



No, relevant, as it shows the folly of relying on Databook hyperbole at all.



Turrin said:


> 8) We’ll first off there are many different types of steel with different disabilities. Do you have evidence A3 for sure scales above the strongest type of steel. I’m generally not sure on that which is why I’m asking



I could argue there are many different types of adamantine and some may even be weaker than steel, so this is a useless argument 



Turrin said:


> However as ultimately it’s irrelevant whether A3 is >= to real world steel is irrelevant, because the comparison can simply metaphorical in nature. What matters is Kishi is using a higher order metaphor for Enma then A3, which still indicates Kishi’s intent that Enma is more durable



Kishi used a higher order metaphor for Base Guy's Konoha Hurricane than he did for TSBs, I suppose Konoha Hurricane > TSBs 

Feats > flowery metaphors and hyperboles from a source notorious for them.


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Tri said:


> I’m talking about the flashback where Oro beat Hiruzen with enma and a few anbu ninjas asses with a big cheesy grin on his face  which lead into the present Hiruzen saying he’d kill Orochimaru this time while using his suicide trump card which he failed at btw.
> 
> Bruh you’re just not getting it. The fight was 2 heavily nerfed edos and _at best _1/8th of Orochimaru. I’m treating the fight as Oro did where he basically acted like he was sight seeing at the zoo while Hiruzen got gassed doing a few jutsus. Everyone understands Hiruzen didn’t fight just Oro, what you don’t understand is that Hiruzen was getting tossed around while Oro did nothing because he just didn’t think Hiruzen wasn’t any type of threat.
> 
> ...


1) The Flashback where Hiruzen didn’t try because he couldn’t bring himself to fight his student 

2) Orochimaru after already watching the Hokage get sealed and shitting himself over Hiruzen Sealing Jutsu is not only giving 1/8 his effort 

3) His objective was to stop Orochimaru’s invasion. He defeated 2 Edo Hokage and then still stopped Orochimaru. That’s not good now 

4)And Hiruzen literally has the author saying he’s the Strongest Ninja above itachi


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## Tri (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) The Flashback where Hiruzen didn’t try because he couldn’t bring himself to fight his student


Already addressed this in the original post I brought this up in so try actually reading it next time.



Turrin said:


> 2) Orochimaru after already watching the Hokage get sealed and shitting himself over Hiruzen Sealing Jutsu is not only giving 1/8 his effort


Yes we can cherry pick the literal only moment Oro gave any type of effort and say that is indicative of the rest of the fight, but instead we could just read the whole fight like normal individuals.


Turrin said:


> 3) His objective was to stop Orochimaru’s invasion. He defeated 2 Edo Hokage and then still stopped Orochimaru. That’s not good now


If your idea of success is dying while the other dude you failed to kill continues to wreak havoc on your precious village then  sure man.


Turrin said:


> 4)And Hiruzen literally has the author saying he’s the Strongest Ninja above itachi


Itachi’s statement of invincibility comes after Hiruzen’s thus overriding it.

y’know what dude, this ain’t worth it. You can keep wanking Hiruzen on your own time I ain’t interested in discussing him with you anymore.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Clearly not, as both Base Guy and A3 have bodies of steel according to your "figurative comparisons". Even things described by the _same_ moniker diverge wildly in durability
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) This would be relevant if Kishi compare Gai to something tougher then steel but he didn’t 

I’ve also told you Steel can have varying durability, so Gai and A3 both being compared to it doesn’t even mean they are equal, it’s just there to tell us their bodies are stronger then most Ninja/Things 

2) I’m asking for a durability example because we are talking about the validity of how Kishi describes durability 

3) Aegon value is literally the worth of something. If the Kishimoto is describing something to be Adamantine in quality, Kishi is describe the worth of its durability. That’s the entire purpose of using a word to describe the staff durability to Fans; to convey it’s worth.

Denying this is literally denying the way language is used 

4) He gives us a mathematical answer to his chakra among in comparison to Naruto’s not A4’s. We however know A4’s chakra is > then that due to his chakra being describe by a word meant to represent a value: “Bijuu” level.

But hey we don’t even need to use Kakashi in this example, we can literally replace Kakashi with Tenten, Ino, Yamato, etc… and we would still know A4 has more chakra then them, because he was describe to be like a “Bijuu”.

5) Proof the Adamantine is weaker in the Naruto world then it normally is. Otherwise I’m going with the typical definition of it, especially since another way to translate the Kanji is Vajra, which mean’s indestructible.

6) If by Chakra flow you mean Raiton Shroud, I don’t really care how you think RNY A3 starts up, I’m just talking about Enma over Base A3.

7) Aegon it’s literally talking about scale of the attack which is why it talks about destroying a forest.

8)Yes it is folly to rely on hyperbola, but you haven’t proven this is a hyperbola 

9) Sure you free to argue it, just show me examples where Adamantine is weaker then steel 

10) Except again that example doesn’t work as it’s a provable hyperbola. Again prove Emma’s is a hyperbola and I’ll agree with you


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) This would be relevant if Kishi compare Gai to something tougher then steel but he didn’t



He did: A3.



Turrin said:


> I’ve also told you Steel can have varying durability



Prove Kishimoto was comparing A3 and Guy to different types of steel.

And adamantine can't...because? 



Turrin said:


> so Gai and A3 both being compared to it doesn’t even mean they are equal, it’s just there to tell us their bodies are stronger then most Ninja/Things



At worst, this still implies Base Guy is close to A3 in durability, which in itself is *absolutely ridiculous and wrong*.

At best, I could easily say that same argument can be applied to adamantine. 



Turrin said:


> 2) I’m asking for a durability example because we are talking about the validity of how Kishi describes durability



What is special about durability? What exactly makes it different from power or speed or any less susceptible to hyperbole?



Turrin said:


> 3) Aegon value is literally the worth of something. If the Kishimoto is describing something to be Adamantine in quality, Kishi is describe the worth of its durability



Okay, so Base Guy ~ A3 in durability then. Sounds great  

And Konoha Hurricane >>> TSB in power, sounds greater  



Turrin said:


> Denying this is literally denying the way language is used



Language can be used hyperbolically too and, in the case of the Databooks, frequently is.



Turrin said:


> 4) He gives us a mathematical answer to his chakra among in comparison to Naruto’s



Concession accepted.



Turrin said:


> We however know A4’s chakra is > then that due to his chakra being describe by a word meant to represent a value: “Bijuu” level
> 
> But hey we don’t even need to use Kakashi in this example, we can literally replace Kakashi with Tenten, Ino, Yamato, etc… and we would still know A4 has more chakra then them, because he was describe to be like a “Bijuu”



Funnily enough, your examples are still trash as ALL of those characters have Databook stats that tell us how much chakra they have.

And none of them even has a 5, IIRC (which Naruto does). Some have even less than Kakashi.



Turrin said:


> 5) Proof the Adamantine is weaker in the Naruto world then it normally is



Adamantine doesn't fucking_ exist_, so you need to prove how durable it is first.



Turrin said:


> Otherwise I’m going with the typical definition of it, especially since another way to translate the Kanji is Vajra, which mean’s indestructible



Cool, still hyperbole.



Turrin said:


> 6) If by Chakra flow you mean Raiton Shroud, I don’t really care how you think RNY A3 starts up, I’m just talking about Enma over Base A3



Pretty sure you argued Enma is more durable than RCM A3.

I actually don't care if you believe Enma > Base A3, but Enma > RCM A3 is laughably wrong.



Turrin said:


> 7) Aegon it’s literally talking about scale of the attack which is why it talks about destroying a forest



Nope, *power*.



> Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the *power* to easily obliterate an entire forest. -





Turrin said:


> 8)Yes it is folly to rely on hyperbola, but you haven’t proven this is a hyperbola



Already done with the Kusanagi vs A4 example.

Learn to read.



Turrin said:


> 9) Sure you free to argue it, just show me examples where Adamantine is weaker then steel



See above.



Turrin said:


> 10) Except again that example doesn’t work as it’s a provable hyperbola. Again prove Emma’s is a hyperbola and I’ll agree with you



See above.


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He did: A3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) That’s entirely circular reasoning. You need an example outside the one we are directly disagreeing on 

2) There is nothing to prove Steel itself has varying durability’s, so by virtue of Kishimoto describing the two as Steel, he is allowing for their to be varying durabilities among them. Otherwise you are denying the nature of the material used to describe them 

3) I never said anything is less susceptible to hyperbole, I’ve told you 10 times now your free to prove the Enma statement is a hyperbola if you can. But your not doing that.

Instead your saying because in other instances the DB has hyperbolas in it that we should automatically assume the Enma statement is one and disregard it. This is a completely disingenuous argument on your behalf because I know you use other information from the DBs to form your arguments. More over you use other statements from the Manga to form your arguments despite the same author employing the same types of Hyperbola in the Manga as well.

This is why we evaluate each example on a case by case basis for hyperbola, not just throw out all canon statements because the author makes hyperbola form time to time

3) Aegon those characters having DB stats or not is irrelevant, as we don’t need them to tell A4 has more chakra, since the Author’s description of it being like a Bijuu is already enough. Like again we can take Omoi’s and compare him to A4 instead, nether have DB stats, yet it’s still obvious A4’s chakra is much large being compared to a Bijuu.

4) Adamantine doesn’t exist but the word Adamantine does; and in every definition I’ve ever seen for the word in Japanese & English it means ether indestructible or Diamond hardness both of which being more durable then Steel. 

5) Enma could easily be >= A3, as Adamantine is significantly > steel, so Enma would be significantly > Base A3, which puts it in contention with an amped A3. Ultimately though you will find that it’s not provable ether way; so to claim it’s laughable to believe one stance or another can only possibly be fueled by personal bias 

6) We already have been over this Aegon. All power means is ability to do something. So power can refer to something’s DC-AOE. It also stands to reason that if Kishimoto is using these large terrains as examples such as Forests and Mountains he is talking about DC-AoE, as opposed to if he was simply talking about Attack Potency he would say powerful enough to incinerate Steel or some other tough material. 

7) I honestly don’t know when you talked about Ksunagi vs A4, or what your point was there. But it really doesn’t matter because Ksunagi did not even scratch Enma, it only caused him pain. So unless you have a scene where A4 gets hit by Ksunagi and doesn’t feel pain, there is no means to compare them.

Pro-Tip if your going to show me the shroud being hit by Ksunagi, a shroud can’t experience pain so that’s irrelevant.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shazam (Nov 18, 2022)

legit never heard so many good points here for Hiruzen. Dude is actually underrated I think considering the new perceptions I have reading the comments here.


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## Azula (Nov 18, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> You present me a single katon feat that implies this and I’ll ask to be banned for a year


Constant heat by Katons big enough can melt Susano.

1. Sasori was burning down rocks by fire blasts from his puppet.

2. Mei was melting V3 Susano.

3. Madara and Obito's Katon was burning Shinobi alliance chakra cloaks and Naruto had to constantly increase the protection.

4. Danzo blew a hole in Susano.

Hiruzen's jutsus are stronger than Danzo or Madara/Obito. He can constantly attack Susano from out of Itachi's reach and melt Susano completely or to the point where melted Susano cannot move.


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> Constant heat by Katons big enough can melt Susano.
> 
> 1. Sasori was burning down rocks by fire blasts from his puppet.
> 
> ...


Feats please


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## Trojan (Nov 18, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Feats please

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 18, 2022)

Trojan said:


>


Not katon
Try harder 
Also not hiruzen 
Keep trying


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## Trojan (Nov 18, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Not katon


 


keep reeeeech-ing


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 18, 2022)

Trojan said:


> keep reeeeech-ing


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2022)

Tri said:


> Already addressed this in the original post I brought this up in so try actually reading it next time.
> 
> 
> Yes we can cherry pick the literal only moment Oro gave any type of effort and say that is indicative of the rest of the fight, but instead we could just read the whole fight like normal individuals.
> ...


1) There is no way for you to address it. It’s outright stated by both Orochimaru and Kishimoto in DB2 that Hiruzen would have killed Orochimaru if he was 10 Years younger. So there is no way Orochimaru is easily beating an even Younger Hiruzen, whose actually trying. 

2) The rest of the fight is irrelevant to my point, because I’m not claiming Orochimaru went full tilt when the Edo Hokage were on the field. All I’m saying is Hiruzen beat 2 Edo Hokage and still had the power left to nearly beat a Full Title Orochimaru


3) My idea of success is accomplishing your goal. Hiruzen’s goal was to protect the village and stop the invasion, he succeeded. You complaining about what Orochimaru did after Hiruzen’s death is totally irrelevant to who succeed in that Scenario.

4) About 5 statements from the author take precedent from one fallible statement from a character Black Zetsu, no matter the time the statements are made.


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## Onyx Emperor (Nov 18, 2022)

Genjutsu gg solo king wins again, low diff.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) That’s entirely circular reasoning



How is it circular reasoning when everything I've stated is factual and all you've done is refuse to address it or make lame excuses ("hurr durr Enma doesn't know what he's talking about").



Turrin said:


> You need an example outside the one we are directly disagreeing on



Provided plenty, but you bitched about those too. It's clear as day you're hell-bent on lying your ass off and you know it, and I'm not going to indulge you any further. 



Turrin said:


> 2) There is nothing to prove Steel itself has varying durability’s



My dude, can you keep your arguments straight for one moment?  

First you say: 



Turrin said:


> 8) We’ll first off there are many different types of steel with different durabilities . Do you have evidence A3 for sure scales above the strongest type of steel. I’m generally not sure on that which is why I’m asking



And then you say "nothing to prove steel itself has varying durabilities"...

You don't even know what your argument is anymore. I will take it as a concession that you don't know what you're talking about and entered the debate half-cocked.



Turrin said:


> so by virtue of Kishimoto describing the two as Steel, he is allowing for their to be varying durabilities among them



Based on nothing but your headcanon. Kishimoto just chose the word "steel" because it's just a cool and convenient way to describe the durability of a tough body, no different from calling Superman the Man of Steel when he's far more durable.



Turrin said:


> 3) I never said anything is less susceptible to hyperbole, I’ve told you 10 times now your free to prove the Enma statement is a hyperbola if you can. But your not doing that



Already proved Enma is less durable than A3, so either the statement is a hyperbole or (as I offered) A3 is simply far more durable and your "adamantine > steel" argument is horseshit.



Turrin said:


> Instead your saying because in other instances the DB has hyperbolas in it that we should automatically assume the Enma statement is one and disregard it



We have feats and statements (one from Enma _himself_, mind you) to tell that Enma isn't more durable than A3 though. Feats and manga statements > Databook statements > your interpretation of Databook statements. 



Turrin said:


> This is a completely disingenuous argument on your behalf because I know you use other information from the DBs to form your arguments. More over you use other statements from the Manga to form your arguments despite the same author employing the same types of Hyperbola in the Manga as well



Sounds like ad hominem fallacy, and a lie for sure. I rarely rely exclusively on the Databooks and will almost always either include DB-based arguments as part of a bigger whole or even admit if they don't make sense as far as we know. 

The manga takes precedence over the Databook, and I champion feats over statements when there is any "disagreement" regardless. 

Unlike you, I don't rely on blind hyperbole or statements from a secondary source to the _exclusion_ of everything else. 



Turrin said:


> This is why we evaluate each example on a case by case basis for hyperbola, not just throw out all canon statements because the author makes hyperbola form time to time



You need to prove it's a canon statement in the first place. Feats > statements and when we're discussing a secondary source that is rife with errors like that, you're gonna need actual proof from the manga.

Furthermore, you need to prove your INTERPRETATION of these "canon statements" is the correct one. Kishimoto never, ever says Enma or adamantine or anything compared to either is more durable than anything he compared to steel. You are the one forcing this interpretation, not the Databook.



Turrin said:


> 3) Aegon those characters having DB stats or not is irrelevant, as we don’t need them to tell A4 has more chakra, since the Author’s description of it being like a Bijuu is already enough





Turrin said:


> Like again we can take Omoi’s and compare him to A4 instead, nether have DB stats, yet it’s still obvious A4’s chakra is much large being compared to a Bijuu



Bad example, and it sounds like you don't know how burden of proof works. Bijuu level chakra is portrayed as a rarity and a big deal in-universe and A4 is stated to have Bijuu level chakra by a reliable source in the manga (Karin, a sensor), whereas Omoi never is. 

There is zero direct comparison between Enma and A3 in durability in the Databook, and every manga-based comparison has A3 coming out on top by far.



Turrin said:


> 4) Adamantine doesn’t exist but the word Adamantine does; and in every definition I’ve ever seen for the word in Japanese & English it means ether indestructible or Diamond hardness both of which being more durable then Steel.



Diamonds vary in durability too, so...this is kind of useless information.

Diamond isn't actually harder than steel in every way, by the way. It's easier to break with a hammer than steel is, albeit it is more resilient against cutting. 

Which, ironically, seals the deal for you. If Enma fears Kusanagi in spite of being resistant against cutting-based attacks and a stronger Kusanagi fails miserably against A4, pretty clear A3 dumps on Enma.



Turrin said:


> 5) Enma could easily be >= A3, as Adamantine is significantly > steel, so Enma would be significantly > Base A3, which puts it in contention with an amped A3



You can be "significantly > Base A3"' and still weaker than amped A3. Never mind the fact Enma has done nothing to prove it's above or on par with Base or RCM A3.



Turrin said:


> Ultimately though you will find that it’s not provable ether way



Concession accepted you can't prove your stance. I, of course, fully disagree my stance is not provable (as I have proved it).



Turrin said:


> so to claim it’s laughable to believe one stance or another can only possibly be fueled by personal bias



Nope, that's where all the evidence in aggregate points to. Literally the only argument you have for Enma is "hurr durr Databook called it adamantine and compared A3 to steel". 



Turrin said:


> 6) We already have been over this Aegon. All power means is ability to do something. So power can refer to something’s DC-AOE. It also stands to reason that if Kishimoto is using these large terrains as examples such as Forests and Mountains he is talking about DC-AoE, as opposed to if he was simply talking about Attack Potency he would say powerful enough to incinerate Steel or some other tough material



Databook said power, not DC/AoE.

Stop trying to twist statements.



Turrin said:


> 7) I honestly don’t know when you talked about Ksunagi vs A4, or what your point was there. But it really doesn’t matter because Ksunagi did not even scratch Enma, it only caused him pain



I mean, it's a no-brainer that a sharp object that causes you pain could easily scratch you with a few direct hits...



Turrin said:


> So unless you have a scene where A4 gets hit by Ksunagi and doesn’t feel pain, there is no means to compare them



Literally showed you a scan of A4 taking a direct strike from Sasuke's Chidorigatana and the sword just bouncing off.  

I'll post it again.







Turrin said:


> Pro-Tip if your going to show me the shroud being hit by Ksunagi, a shroud can’t experience pain so that’s irrelevant.



This is such a dumb take, I should be amazed. If Enma was more durable than RCM A4, the shroud _wouldn't have protected A4 at all_, yet it literally *blew* the Kusanagi away - something Enma needed Hiruzen and two-three hits to do.

Congratulations for proving that A4's RCM alone > Enma in durability.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Provided plenty, but you bitched about those too. It's clear as day you're hell-bent on lying your ass off and you know it, and I'm not going to indulge you any further.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't even know what your argument is anymore. I will take it as a concession that you don't know what you're talking about and entered the debate half-cocked.



It's all he does.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How is it circular reasoning when everything I've stated is factual and all you've done is refuse to address it or make lame excuses ("hurr durr Enma doesn't know what he's talking about").
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) It’s circular reasoning as your saying that A3 is more durable because the DB is wrong since A3 is more durable 

2) Aegon your misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m saying there is nothing to prove, because we know Steel has differing durabilities. Not that Steel doesn’t have differing durabilities 

3) Your once again talking about a figurative vs literally description, but that’s irrelevant, because even if used figuratively the concept of what Steel is remains the same; and steel by virtue of its nature has varying durabilities. So Kishimoto can call Gai and A3’s bodies like Steel whether figuratively or literally, with their being variation between how durable their bodies are, because that is the nature of Steel 

4) And I disagree that your Ksunagi/A4 example actually proves anything which we are discussing in another point, so until you successfully win that argument, you haven’t proven a hyperbola 

5) What are you talking about Aegon the DBs are written by Kishi so they are Canon. What’s more the Staff is called Adamantine in the Manga too:

*金剛 = Vajra (indestructible) or Adamantine *

So even if I were to accept your complaints about disregarding the DB, it’s still called Adamantine in the Manga.

I also never said feats couldn’t disprove statements. I’ve told you 5 times if you can prove it’s a hyperbola go for it.

6) Aegon Adamantine is also treated as rarity by the author in the Manga (by one of the most Informed characters) and DBs, with very few things being compared to it, A3 never being one of them. So this is identical to A4 being compared to a Bijuu and Omoi not being compared to a Bjuu 

7) Sure Diamonds vary in durability which is why I’m not going to complain if something else that’s called Diamond turns out to be more durable then Enma. However, this is irrelevant to a comparison between Diamond and Steel, where Diamond is better then Steel.

Additionally here it’s not just normal Diamond it’s “Kongou”, which has the connotation of being the most durable material beyond just the normal connotation of the word Diamond.

8) Aegon, I already said it could be significantly better then base A3 and still be inferior to RNY A3. However, it also could be better then RNY A3. My stance being that it’s not provable one way or another. So unless you can prove RNY A3 is more durable then your not getting your concession on this point 

9) So basically your now arguing I’m twisting statements by referencing the actual definition of the word power 

10) Except we literally saw it hit Enma multiple times and not cause a single scratch. So the Manga demonstrates that your conclusion is wrong 

11/12) Aegon literally every time Ksunagi hits Enma and doesn’t cut through it, it’s bouncing off Enma 

What your taking about is not Ksunagi bouncing off RNY, but Sasuke loosing his grip on it 

Sasuke loosing his grip has to do with his physical strength to hold onto the blade after it bounces off the shroud and has literally nothing to do with durability 

All this shows is that ether

A) Sasuke is physically weaker then Orochimaru
B) There was additional energy generated by the clash of Sasuke’s Raiton and A4 Raiton, which overcame Sasuke’s grip.

In ether case nothing to do with durability

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Nov 18, 2022)

Hiruzen lost to an oro who basically sat back and let his ets fight, oro lost to Itachi. Do the math

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 18, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Hiruzen lost to an oro who basically sat back and let his ets fight, oro lost to Itachi. Do the math



Trust me, if he could this wouldn't be 5 pages long.

I think a much more interesting question is how MANY Hiruzen's would it take to beat Itachi? I think 7 to 10 might have a chance....

Wow this is actually a way better question.

He has no feats that could even break Itachi's Susanoo, so.... I am not really sure ANY number changes anything. He has to be in grabbing distance for RDS, so Susanoo precludes that anyway regardless of how many Hiruzen's there are.

It would literally come down to "how many hiruzen's die before Itachi runs out of stamina?" And when phrased that way, I think probably 20.

Reactions: Like 2


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 18, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> According to feats and portrayal, Old Hiruzen at absolute best, most reasonably optimistic interpretation extreme-diffs Oro without Edos or Yamata, who in contrast to his toying with and derision of Hiruzen, has nothing but praise for and concedes outright inferiority to Itachi.


I dont think Hiruzen beats Itachi FYI, i actually think he gets fucked here but this is dishonest

He doesnt "extreme dif Oro" at best, he is literally one a third of his life, holding back the entire fight, restricted within a tiny barrier, fighting his beloved students and two zombie mentors (immortal), is struck with grief and suppressed.

Yet the second he gets serious for literally a handful of pages, with barely any stamina left he completely shit difs Oro and the Edo's with RDS and dies to one of the best examples of PIS in the entire manga, given both he and Oro acknowledged he was capable of dodging the Kusanagi - yet despite being known for his intelligence, and already in a weakened state, arrogantly decides not to because "ill die anyway" even though he simply could have dodged it, not risked weakening himself and sealed Oro away.

I think its clear he is much above Oro

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 18, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> I dont think Hiruzen beats Itachi FYI, i actually think he gets fucked here but this is dishonest
> 
> He doesnt "extreme dif Oro" at best, he is literally one a third of his life, holding back the entire fight, restricted within a tiny barrier, fighting his beloved students and two zombie mentors (immortal), is struck with grief and suppressed.
> 
> ...




So if you fuck around while playing someone at chess until you have just like 2 pieces left, then start trying your best but lose anyway, was that a good representation of who is the better player?

Orochimaru wasn't taking the fight seriously until he was already hit with RDS... Little late for fair comparisons.


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 18, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So if you fuck around while playing someone at chess until you have just like 2 pieces left, then start trying your best but lose anyway, was that a good representation of who is the better player?


It depends on the context here. Normally i would agree with your argument, but we know Hiruzen was unable to actually fight at his full capabilities because he was nerfed and he needed a resolve amp to get over himself. This point is repeated nearly 5 times throughout the fight, its a significant focus.

If you are holding back through the chess game, have 2 pieces left whilst the other has nearly their entire board and you come back and only lose because a gust of wind knocks over your last piece because you took your hand of the piece when it was windy (which contradicts your style of chess), then id say its even worse for the other guy to nearly lose lile that


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Orochimaru wasn't taking the fight seriously until he was already hit with RDS... Little late for fair comparisons.


Orochimaru wasnt actively trying to kill him on the spot, but he had no problem letting Hiruzen get roughed up and literally tried to stab him several times as well

He actively tried killing him with Kusanagi _before _Hiruzen hit him with RDS, when he blitzed Tobirama and Hashirama then jumped Oro. Oro didnt even know what was going on or what seal he was using either, there is zero indication that he only got serious once he was getting his soul ripped out, that is completely baseless.

It isnt a fair comparison, because as i just mentioned, the second a fatigued Hiruzen who literally shortened his lifespan by making three clones (dividing his chakra into thirds which should lower his speed too) is capable of literally SHIT DIFFING Orochimaru, Tobirama and Hashirama, the latter two in complete darkness.

How anyone could read this and think that Orochimaru was portrayed as Hiruzen's superior is beyond me

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 18, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> It depends on the context here. Normally i would agree with your argument, but we know Hiruzen was unable to actually fight at his full capabilities because he was nerfed and he needed a resolve amp to get over himself. This point is repeated nearly 5 times throughout the fight, its a significant focus.
> 
> If you are holding back through the chess game, have 2 pieces left whilst the other has nearly their entire board and you come back and only lose because a gust of wind knocks over your last piece because you took your hand of the piece when it was windy (which contradicts your style of chess), then id say its even worse for the other guy to nearly lose lile that
> 
> ...




He didn't though. He got lucky with a technique that involves the literal reaper helping you fight your battle, which only hit because Orochimaru was entirely dicking around, which you acknowledged. Him going for a stab is not him taking the fight to an immediate serious place. NO arms Orochimaru was using more impressive techniques against KN4 Naruto WHOM by the way, Orochimaru was STILL dicking around with. We see him perform feats WAY better than fighting Hiruzen against KN4 while near death AND still dicking around. You can't seriously think ANYTHING happened besides Orochimaru shitting the bed and dropping his guard.


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 18, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> He didn't though. He got lucky with a technique that involves the literal reaper helping you fight your battle, which only hit because Orochimaru was entirely dicking around, which you acknowledged.


What? Lucky how? the "literal reaper" isnt the one amping Hiruzen and giving him the speed and physicals to actually get a hold of those three, you do realise that?

A fatigued Hiruzen whos chakra is split into thirds, whos lifespan is literally shortened is capable of doing that, _not _the reaper, and what kind of counterargument is that? is he not allowed to use his abilities?

Itachi only got lucky against Orochimaru because he was dicking around and had the SWORD OF TOTSUKA to seal him. Its a completely ridiculous argument

I never acknowledged that Oro was dicking around either, i literally said he tried to kill him several times, both through his Edo's and his Kusanagi before he got hit with RDS, while Hiruzen could barely bring himself to counterattack throughout the entire fight


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Him going for a stab is not him taking the fight to an immediate serious place. NO arms Orochimaru was using more impressive techniques against KN4 Naruto. He obviously wasn't trying his best.


Him trying to stab someone with a fucking sword is pretty serious - Hiurzen doesnt have regen like Orochimaru, the fact he is using moves that can critically injure Hiruzen shows he is trying to kill him which would mean he is fighting seriously

Laughing like a maniac in the middle of the fight and mentally torturing your opponent doesnt mean you are dicking around, it just means Oro is a cruel, sadistic person who is enjoying hurting his old master both mentally and physically.

No he wasnt, and secondly he literally used arms during his fight against KN4 and did fuck all the entire fight. He had to continouly regenerate, and he was actually able to tag KN4 with his Kusanagi, yet couldnt tag Hiruzen on a third of his chakra with it though.

"He obviously wasnt trying his best" isnt an argument, and frankly there isnt one because there is ZERO evidence that suggests he was not trying to kill Hiruzen and was dicking around. The entire narrative, from Oro, from the spectators, from Enma and from Hiruzen himself is that he is *holding back, *not Orochimaru who is just salivating at the idea of fighting Hiruzen

You keep mentioning Oro "dicking around", and ignored my point that Hiruzen literally let himself get stabbed with the Kusanagi since he would die anyway which is the only reason he lost.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 18, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> What? Lucky how? the "literal reaper" isnt the one amping Hiruzen and giving him the speed and physicals to actually get a hold of those three, you do realise that?
> 
> A fatigued Hiruzen whos chakra is split into thirds, whos lifespan is literally shortened is capable of doing that, _not _the reaper, and what kind of counterargument is that? is he not allowed to use his abilities?
> 
> ...


Lucky in that he landed the technique against a faster opponent who had their guard down because they weren't fighting seriously.

He was not salivating at the idea of fighting Hiruzen, he didn't care about fighting Hiruzen. He wanted to torture and kill Hiruzen, hence all the mind games and SPECIFICALLY using Edo Tensei's that he nerfed. They weren't there to fight or even HELP fight Hiruzen, they were just there as a set piece to further the mental anguish. That's why he using the suppressing seals instead of having them fight full power, which would have killed Hiruzen instantly.

He wasn't trying to sit there and "control" the 1st and Second like Kabuto does. They were literally decorations. Same thing with the seal to keep everyone else out of the fight. He could have just used unsealed Edo's which could fight the whole village at once. That wasn't the intention.

The WHOLE invasion is a flex from Orochimaru. He is showing how much more powerful he has gotten than the leaf and also fuck his old master. He was posing and monologuing the ENTIRE time. If you can't tell this is someone dicking around I can't help you.

This is like seeing Rock Lee with his weights on and no gates active and going "see, what happened against Dosu in the forest of death shows Rock Lee is weaker".


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 18, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Lucky in that he landed the technique against a faster opponent who had their guard down because they weren't fighting seriously.


Prove to me right now he had his guard down, when he was fighting in CQC against fatigued Hiruzen and couldnt land a hit on him, got disarmed by fatigued Hiruzen, countered Enma yet couldnt react to fatigued Hiruzen running up to him and grabbing him

He actually percieves him, is looking directly at him yet cannot move out of the way. 

Not fighting seriously is also up to you to prove, as he is using his strongest CQC technique and actively trying to critically wound Hiruzen, which would debunk your entire argument.


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> He was not salivating at the idea of fighting Hiruzen, he didn't care about fighting Hiruzen.


This is objectively incorrect, he was grinning and crying with joy at the idea of fighting him


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> He wanted to torture and kill Hiruzen, hence all the mind games and SPECIFICALLY using Edo Tensei's that he nerfed.


Which would literally mean he was ENJOYING THE IDEA OF FIGHTING HIRUZEN AS WELL AS TORTURING HIM


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> They weren't there to fight or even HELP fight Hiruzen, they were just there as a set piece to further the mental anguish. That's why he using the suppressing seals instead of having them fight full power, which would have killed Hiruzen instantly.


They werent there to fight Hiruzen yet they try to kill him. Great argument.

Orochimaru never supressed the Edo's, he couldnt reanimate them to their full potential because he hadnt mastered the technique. 






Hyugadoobadoo said:


> He wasn't trying to sit there and "control" the 1st and Second like Kabuto does. They were literally decorations. Same thing with the seal to keep everyone else out of the fight. He could have just used unsealed Edo's which could fight the whole village at once. That wasn't the intention.


They were decorations that were actively fighting Hiruzen, shooting wall splitting suitons at him, kicking his face in, drowning him, binding him with Mokuton, blinding him and beating him up

Him not unleashing the Edo's on the village is completely irrelevant because he wanted (needed) to use them against Hiruzen, the strongest in the village


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> The WHOLE invasion is a flex from Orochimaru. He is showing how much more powerful he has gotten than the leaf and also fuck his old master.


Agreed but this has nothing to do with my point


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> He was posing and monologuing the ENTIRE time. If you can't tell this is someone dicking around I can't help you.


Taunting doesnt equal dicking around.

You can continue to ignore my point that nothing suggests he was dicking around during the final confrontation as much as you want.

Dicking around is Madara letting himself get hit by the Kage and not even trying to absorb their attacks because they are pitiful

Dicking around is NOT using subsitutions, never letting yourself get purposefully hit, fighting an enclosed 3v1 and using your strongest CQC weapons with the intent to kill


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> This is like seeing Rock Lee with his weights on and no gates active and going "see, what happened against Dosu in the forest of death shows Rock Lee is weaker".


WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Rock Lee not using his strength is different from Hiruzen SHORTENING HIS LIFESPAN and splitting his chakra into thirds and still being capable of blitzing 3 high Kage level opponents whilst out of chakra the second he got serious

What the actual FUCK does that have to do with anything?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Nov 18, 2022)

What's up with all these *Super Obvious* Threads? It's like we get new people on here that must of just finished watching/reading P1 lol

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Nov 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> Constant heat by Katons big enough can melt Susano.
> 
> 1. Sasori was burning down rocks by fire blasts from his puppet.


Yeah cause Rocks and Susanoo are made from the same thing Lol


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## Azula (Nov 18, 2022)

IzanagiSageKunai said:


> Yeah cause Rocks and Susanoo are made from the same thing Lol



Susano is made from Chakra and Chakra can also be converted to Rocks.



A rock made from Chakra will melt and susano made from Chakra will melt.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 18, 2022)

IzanagiSageKunai said:


> What's up with all these *Super Obvious* Threads? It's like we get new people on here that must of just finished watching/reading P1 lol



Trojan, ironically, is an older poster.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 18, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Prove to me right now he had his guard down, when he was fighting in CQC against fatigued Hiruzen and couldnt land a hit on him, got disarmed by fatigued Hiruzen, countered Enma yet couldnt react to fatigued Hiruzen running up to him and grabbing him
> 
> Not fighting seriously is also up to you to prove, as he is using his strongest CQC technique and actively trying to critically wound Hiruzen, which would debunk your entire argument.



Because Orochimaru is a CQC specialist? The fact that he is fighting melee IS the proof he is dicking around. Spewing out 80,000 sword snakes is his fighting style. He has a 5 in ninjutsu, a 5 in intelligence, a 5 in genjutsu, a 5 in hand seals, and a 3.5 in taijutsu. The fact that he is engaging in a sword fight is the evidence that he is not trying his hardest.



WinNo1929 said:


> Orochimaru never supressed the Edo's, he couldnt reanimate them to their full potential because he hadnt mastered the technique.



Since nobody seems to remember this. After Orochimaru uses the Edo Tensei against Hiruzen, Hashirama and Tobirama are BOTH conscious and Hashirama is talking. He can't MOVE because Orochimaru is controlling his will. He then inserts a kunai with a tag into the back of both of their heads that he outright states suppresses their personality, which OBVIOUSLY limits their fighting capabilities.


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Nov 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Trojan, ironically, is an older poster.


Then that's even worst lol

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (Nov 18, 2022)

Gotta love how itachi's wankers keep saying how the Sannin are fodders and worth nothing...

yet in every thread, they rely on "itachi defeated Oro" to prove how strong itachi is...  


5 pages in, and as per every thread, nothing about the match-up itself. It's just "but itachi defeated Oro  "


instead of trying to make an argument Vs the opponent himself...


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## Serene Grace (Nov 18, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> It depends on the context here. Normally i would agree with your argument, but we know Hiruzen was unable to actually fight at his full capabilities because he was nerfed and he needed a resolve amp to get over himself. This point is repeated nearly 5 times throughout the fight, its a significant focus.
> 
> If you are holding back through the chess game, have 2 pieces left whilst the other has nearly their entire board and you come back and only lose because a gust of wind knocks over your last piece because you took your hand of the piece when it was windy (which contradicts your style of chess), then id say its even worse for the other guy to nearly lose lile that
> 
> ...


Legit thought you you gave me a dislike by accident, but then you typed this BS up and I felt a deep sadness

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trojan (Nov 18, 2022)

IzanagiSageKunai said:


> It's like we get new people on here that must of just finished watching/reading P1 lol


itachi's supporters...

"you must leave part 1!! Part 1 hype doesn't matter we have moved on to part 2!!! "

intelligent people:
cool, let's do. So, how does itachi win here? 


itachi's supporters:

"Well, BACK IN PART 1, Hiruzen was defeated by Oro. 
let's not talk about the Edo Hokage's feats of Hiruzen holding back Buddha, cutting the Tree, outperforming Tobirama...etc etc
or the fact that Danzo who drove MS Sasuke to his limit still stated that he is weaker than Hiruzen. Let's just ignore all this part 2 crap and focus on part 1. The parts that suits us, of course...  "


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> your saying that A3 is more durable because he has better feats



Fixed.  



Turrin said:


> 2) Aegon your misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m saying there is nothing to prove, because we know Steel has differing durabilities. Not that Steel doesn’t have differing durabilities



Prove Kishimoto is invoking "different durabilities" or stfu. He just compares both to steel, no other distinction (what kind of steel, for example) is made.



Turrin said:


> 3) Your once again talking about a figurative vs literally description



You're the one comparing them lmfao. 

Makes your stance look even more ridiculous now, doesn't it?



Turrin said:


> 4) And I disagree that your Ksunagi/A4 example actually proves anything which we are discussing in another point, so until you successfully win that argument, you haven’t proven a hyperbola



Already won.



Turrin said:


> 5) What are you talking about Aegon the DBs are written by Kishi so they are Canon



Another stupid strawman. Manga is more canon than Databooks, and if they contradict each other, manga takes precedence every single time.

Even the Databooks don't say Enma > A3 in durability, by the way.



Turrin said:


> What’s more the Staff is called Adamantine in the Manga too:
> 
> *金剛 = Vajra (indestructible) or Adamantine *
> 
> So even if I were to accept your complaints about disregarding the DB, it’s still called Adamantine in the Manga



The manga doesn't say Enma is more durable than A3. Sorry, not sorry.



Turrin said:


> I also never said feats couldn’t disprove statements. I’ve told you 5 times if you can prove it’s a hyperbola go for it



Already done 5 times (or more).

You seem interested in being contrarian rather than accepting the facts.



Turrin said:


> 6) Aegon Adamantine is also treated as rarity by the author in the Manga (by one of the most Informed characters) and DBs, with very few things being compared to it, A3 never being one of them



Trash. 

Enma is literally made of adamantine, kind of a no-brainer to call it that. 

Now prove this means Enma is more durable than anything not compared to adamantine or stfu. 

Now, if we want to take Databook (or manga) statements hyper-literally, RCM is stated to be able to "withstand any type of attack", which is far more praise than Enma has ever received.



Turrin said:


> So this is identical to A4 being compared to a Bijuu and Omoi not being compared to a Bjuu



Trash again.

Omoi has no stamina feats or hype that competes with or supercedes that of A4's. A3 has both over Enma.



Turrin said:


> 7) Sure Diamonds vary in durability which is why I’m not going to complain if something else that’s called Diamond turns out to be more durable then Enma. However, this is irrelevant to a comparison between Diamond and Steel, where Diamond is better then Steel



Prove all kinds of diamonds > all kinds of steel in every way or stfu. 



Turrin said:


> Additionally here it’s not just normal Diamond it’s “Kongou”, which has the connotation of being the most durable material beyond just the normal connotation of the word Diamond



Don't care. See above.



Turrin said:


> 8) Aegon, I already said it could be significantly better then base A3 and still be inferior to RNY A3. However, it also could be better then RNY A3. My stance being that it’s not provable one way or another. So unless you can prove RNY A3 is more durable then your not getting your concession on this point



Already done. You whining the earth is flat won't win you the argument either.



Turrin said:


> 9) So basically your now arguing I’m twisting statements by referencing the actual definition of the word power



Nope, you're twisting power to mean what you want it to mean and not what it actually means or can mean. 

Power =/ destructive capacity alone.



Turrin said:


> 10) Except we literally saw it hit Enma multiple times and not cause a single scratch. So the Manga demonstrates that your conclusion is wrong



Already addressed. Hiruzen outperformed his and Enma's own expectations. Enma's judgment is still more reliable than yours any day.



Turrin said:


> 11/12) Aegon literally every time Ksunagi hits Enma and doesn’t cut through it, it’s bouncing off Enma



Trash. 

Kusanagi and Enma clashed mutually and Hiruzen kept hold of Enma until he finally disarmed Oro's Kusanagi.

Sasuke's Kusanagi had only one clash with RCM and it immediately flew away.



Turrin said:


> What your taking about is not Ksunagi bouncing off RNY, but Sasuke loosing his grip on it



Sasuke "loosed" his grip on purpose?



Turrin said:


> Sasuke loosing his grip has to do with his physical strength to hold onto the blade after it bounces off the shroud and has literally nothing to do with durability
> 
> All this shows is that ether
> 
> A) Sasuke is physically weaker then Orochimaru



Trash. 

Sasuke's Kusanagi is > Orochimaru's _even with physical strength_ taken into account (otherwise Sasuke's Kusanagi being "unblockable" in comparison makes zero sense).



Turrin said:


> B) There was additional energy generated by the clash of Sasuke’s Raiton and A4 Raiton, which overcame Sasuke’s grip



Baseless nonsense, and it also doesn't change the fact A4 took zero damage, proving A4 with RCM still > Enma.


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Fixed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) I don’t have to prove anything. Your making the Positive Claim that the DB is wrong since it states A3 and Gai are equal in durability. You have to therefore prove Kishimoto is unaware that Steel can have varying durabilities and not accounting for this in his comparisons. 

2) How is Manga more Canon then the DBs when they are written by the same exact person about the same exact characters

3) The manga says Enma is Adamantine/Indestructible. I gave you the scan 

4) Raikage’s hype is a provable hyperbola though as he couldn’t withstand his own Hell Stab. Enma’s isn’t 

5) Raikage has no hype or feats in Base that compete with Enma ether 

6) As already explained Kongou isn’t Normal Diamond, it simply means the hardest or indestructible material. Diamond is used as away for describe it because Diamond (at its best) is also considered the hardest material

7) Already gave you the literal definition of power Aegon, if your not going to address why that’s wrong, we’ll count this as your concession 

8) Enma never says Ksunagi can scratch him in the first place. So Enma being right or wrong is irrelevant to the point your trying to make 

9) Once again Loosing one’s grip doesn’t have to do with durability, it has to do with that individuals grip strength

If your not going to accept this and most of your points come back to this we can just ask for a judge if you want or have an official debate on VC about it. But the argument is not going to move forward as this is such a fundamentally flawed premise your basing your entire argument on Imo.

10) For the 100th time Ksunagi didn’t even scratch Enma ether, so RNY and Enma have the same exact feat in that regard.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) I don’t have to prove anything. Your making the Positive Claim that the DB is wrong since it states A3 and Gai are equal in durability



No, you are making the positive claim that YOUR interpretation of what the Databook said overrules what the manga _actually_ says and shows. In other words, you're arguing your biased interpretation of a secondary source > the direct words of a primary source. That's super arrogant.



Turrin said:


> You have to therefore prove Kishimoto is unaware that Steel can have varying durabilities and not accounting for this in his comparisons.



I don't need to prove a negative. You need to prove Kishimoto is aware in the first place and, more to the point, was actual thinking of equating A3 and Guy to different forms of steel when *nothing* in the Databooks ever says he was. 



Turrin said:


> 2) How is Manga more Canon then the DBs when they are written by the same exact person about the same exact characters



Trash.

The manga is the literal original story, the Databooks are supplementary materials.

Imagine not knowing basic facts of canon  



Turrin said:


> 3) The manga says Enma is Adamantine/Indestructible



Bucko, I already agree it's adamantine, that was settled long ago. 

Now you need to prove it's literally indestructible (hint: it isn't, as Enma himself admitted he feared a clash with the Kusanagi) and, failing that, prove adamantine is above A3 in durability.



Turrin said:


> I gave you the scan



I gave you several more that says you're wrong and I am right.



Turrin said:


> 4) Raikage’s hype is a provable hyperbola though as he couldn’t withstand his own Hell Stab. Enma’s isn’t



Enma's also is a provable hyperbole as he state Kusanagi could hurt him and a superior Kusanagi was facetanked by A4. 

At the very least, that puts A4 above Enma in durability, and given that A4 was injured by Chidori and other attacks...we can safely surmise Enma isn't invincible either.



Turrin said:


> 5) Raikage has no hype or feats in Base that compete with Enma ether



Enma has no hype or feats in base that compete with the Raikage, actually. You got it backwards, as per usual.



Turrin said:


> 6) As already explained Kongou isn’t Normal Diamond, it simply means the hardest or indestructible material



Well, it's not indestructible even if the rest is true. Sorry to break it to you. 



Turrin said:


> Diamond is used as away for describe it because Diamond (at its best) is also considered the hardest material



Big deal. 



Turrin said:


> 7) Already gave you the literal definition of power Aegon, if your not going to address why that’s wrong, we’ll count this as your concession



The literal definition of power =/ destructive capacity specifically. 

Prove power means DC _specifically_ and I will concede. Otherwise, not a chance.



Turrin said:


> 8) Enma never says Ksunagi can scratch him in the first place



He says Kusanagi will make him sore. Kind of a no-brainer that a sword that can make you sore can also scratch you, actually. 

Fun fact, it's _easier_ to scratch yourself or be scratched than making yourself sore.



Turrin said:


> So Enma being right or wrong is irrelevant to the point your trying to make



Nope, very relevant. Enma > you.



Turrin said:


> 9) Once again Loosing one’s grip doesn’t have to do with durability, it has to do with that individuals grip strength



Trash. Yes, it does. Sasuke's sword was knocked away because RCM's defense was so strong that it harmlessly and totally deflected Sasuke's offense, not unlike how Sasuke's ribcage broke Danzo's kunai on impact due to how durable it was.



Turrin said:


> If your not going to accept this and most of your points come back to this we can just ask for a judge if you want or have an official debate on VC about it. But the argument is not going to move forward as this is such a fundamentally flawed premise your basing your entire argument on Imo



Not gonna engage you in VC, but I'd be happy to have ThirdRidoku/t0xeus/Monarch look over our posts in this thread and judge.



Turrin said:


> 10) For the 100th time Ksunagi didn’t even scratch Enma ether, so RNY and Enma have the same exact feat in that regard.



Trash. RCM and RCM alone (on a less durable Raikage than A3) deflected a superior Kusanagi in one hit, Enma needed THREE to match that performance.

Even if I steelman your argument the feat was the same, you would be arguing RCM1 A4 = Enma in durability, which _still_ puts adamantine Enma *below* "steel" A3 in durability...so concession accepted


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## deltaniner (Nov 18, 2022)

I don't get why some people are so fixated on making Enma this unstoppable super-weapon that can compete with Mokujin and is more durable than Susanoo.

I'm not saying Enma's bad, as far as weapons/summons go he's honestly pretty good. Just not as powerful as people like to imagine he is.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 18, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> I don't get why some people are so fixated on making Enma this unstoppable super-weapon that can compete with Mokujin and is more durable than Susanoo.
> 
> I'm not saying Enma's bad, as far as weapons/summons go he's honestly pretty good. Just not as powerful as people like to imagine he is.



Turrin is on a contrarian mode. He loves picking random characters and then stanning them out of nowhere, either for the sake of genuine debate or the sake of controversy. Everyone else is just trolling and/or salty about the Founders, Uchiha, etc.

Grand Duke @Shazam, why have you disliked my post? I am your loyal and most leal servant, all my efforts to serve you were in vain?


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## deltaniner (Nov 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Turrin is on a contrarian mode. He loves picking random characters and then stanning them out of nowhere, either for the sake of genuine debate or the sake of controversy. Everyone else is just trolling and/or salty about the Founders, Uchiha, etc.


Folks treat being less durable than Raikages and being able to be hurt by Chidoris as things to be ashamed of. When 99% of people are less durable than Raikages and can be hurt by Chidoris.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 18, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> Folks treat being less durable than Raikages and being able to be hurt by Chidoris as things to be ashamed of. When 99% of people are less durable than Raikages and can be killed by Chidoris.



Fixed

Reactions: Like 1


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## deltaniner (Nov 18, 2022)

Like being honest, just the fact that Enma _can_ be at all comparable, if inferior, to A4 in durability is a compliment. But people just can't help themselves and want to push it further against all logic.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Trojan (Nov 19, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> I don't get why some people are so fixated on making Enma this unstoppable super-weapon


the same reason/why itachi's supporters are so fixated on his Totsuka/Yata.


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 19, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Because Orochimaru is a CQC specialist? The fact that he is fighting melee IS the proof he is dicking around. Spewing out 80,000 sword snakes is his fighting style. He has a 5 in ninjutsu, a 5 in intelligence, a 5 in genjutsu, a 5 in hand seals, and a 3.5 in taijutsu. The fact that he is engaging in a sword fight is the evidence that he is not trying his hardest.


CQC isnt limited to Taijutsu, for starters. Him engaging in a sword fight is Kenjutsu, something he specialises in given his literal weapon is the Kusanagi blade which he spams.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Since nobody seems to remember this. After Orochimaru uses the Edo Tensei against Hiruzen, Hashirama and Tobirama are BOTH conscious and Hashirama is talking. He can't MOVE because Orochimaru is controlling his will. He then inserts a kunai with a tag into the back of both of their heads that he outright states suppresses their personality, which OBVIOUSLY limits their fighting capabilities.


Prove to me why supresses personality limits fighting capabilities, when we literally see Edo Itachi and Nagato arguably become even stronger when they get supressed.

You also failed to provide any evidence that Oro dropped his guard when he got blitzed


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 19, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Legit thought you you gave me a dislike by accident, but then you typed this BS up and I felt a deep sadness


Feel as sad as you want, next time you decide to respond actually make a convincing argument 

Im still waiting for someone who thinks Oro is > Hiruzen to explain Oro, edo Hashi/Tobirama getting blitzed by a fatigued Hiruzen whos life span got shortened from dividing his chakra into thirds (weakeneing all physicals including speed) the second he got serious, and only died to PIS from an attack he could have dodged which is acknowledged from both men


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 19, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> CQC isnt limited to Taijutsu, for starters. Him engaging in a sword fight is Kenjutsu, something he specialises in given his literal weapon is the Kusanagi blade which he spams.


Yes, Kenjutsu, his sword TECHNIQUES that he WASN'T USING. Which is the point I keep making that you keep ignoring. I literally said he normally spams 80,000 sword snakes and you literally ignored it and said he uses Kenjutsu which is SWORD NINJUTSU. This is being dishonest in the conversation, one more time and I am just done. *He was clearly not trying his hardest the whole time.*



WinNo1929 said:


> Prove to me why supresses personality limits fighting capabilities, when we literally see Edo Itachi and Nagato arguably become even stronger when they get supressed.
> 
> You also failed to provide any evidence that Oro dropped his guard when he got blitzed



Kabuto was applying his will OVER theirs with the summoning Jutsu to force them to fight and utilize their full abilities. Their PERSONALITY is still there, it's just being contested by Kabuto for control of the body. What Orochimaru did was insert a tag that seems to shut down higher brain function entirely. And if you can't put two and two together, with them acting ENTIRELY mindless since he did that AND not exercising their full abilities I once again, can't help you. This is basic 1 + 1 = 2 stuff.


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 19, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Yes, Kenjutsu, his sword TECHNIQUES that he WASN'T USING. Which is the point I keep making that you keep ignoring. I literally said he normally spams 80,000 sword snakes and you literally ignored it and said he uses Kenjutsu which is SWORD NINJUTSU. This is being dishonest in the conversation, one more time and I am just done. *He was clearly not trying his hardest the whole time.*


And once again, you completely miss the point. You explicitly stated he is weak in Taijutsu, and he is profficient in Ninjutsu - and i pointed out Kenjutsu is NOT Taijutsu, it is a completely seperate form he is also skilled in and specialises in given he uses Kenjutsu just as much, if not more, than his ninjutsu throughout every single one of his fights.

He doesnt spam 80,000 sword snakes or spam multiple ninjutsu like you keep saying, its actually quite the opposite - he uses Kenjutsu mixed in with Ninjutsu to elevate each art, a perfect example of him doing this was when he used snakes (ninjutsu) to bind Enma after he was defeated in Kenjutsu. 

Taijutsu isnt prevelant, and he used sword techniques throughout the entire fight so please dont backtrack or flat out lie


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Kabuto was applying his will OVER theirs with the summoning Jutsu to force them to fight and utilize their full abilities. Their PERSONALITY is still there, it's just being contested by Kabuto for control of the body.


Except he wasnt, because Itachi wasnt even using his full abilities against Bee and Naruto.

Their personality is also not always there, as seen with Nagato going completely under control.

Isnt it funny that when they completely lose their personality, they become stronger because the user can control them however he likes.


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> What Orochimaru did was insert a tag that seems to shut down higher brain function entirely. And if you can't put two and two together, with them acting ENTIRELY mindless since he did that AND not exercising their full abilities I once again, can't help you. This is basic 1 + 1 = 2 stuff.


Prove to me how acting mindless is weaker than them having their personalities.

Prove to me that this tag prevented them from using their full abilities, rather than Orochimaru simply not mastering the Edo Tensei

Prove to me that there is a correlation between supressing personalities and not holding back without a lazy "1 + 1 = 2" "argument.

If you cant give me any proof to back up this super basic stuff, guess it just simply isnt that basic, or rather just isnt true.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 19, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> And once again, you completely miss the point. You explicitly stated he is weak in Taijutsu, and he is profficient in Ninjutsu - and i pointed out Kenjutsu is NOT Taijutsu, it is a completely seperate form he is also skilled in and specialises in given he uses Kenjutsu just as much, if not more, than his ninjutsu throughout every single one of his fights.
> 
> He doesnt spam 80,000 sword snakes or spam multiple ninjutsu like you keep saying, its actually quite the opposite - he uses Kenjutsu mixed in with Ninjutsu to elevate each art, a perfect example of him doing this was when he used snakes (ninjutsu) to bind Enma after he was defeated in Kenjutsu.


Except that it ONLY happens against Hiruzen. After that he is spamming snakes and sword jutsus ALL day. He doesn't sit a swashbuckle ANYONE EVER AGAIN.* Stop being dishonest.*




WinNo1929 said:


> *Prove to me how acting mindless is weaker than them having their personalities.*


And this is where I know you aren't trying to be serious or honest about this conversation. Mindless jinchuuriki Obito is stronger than Obito who has fully mastered his faculties WHILE still controlling 10 tails huh....



WinNo1929 said:


> Prove to me that this tag prevented them from using their full abilities, rather than Orochimaru simply not mastering the Edo Tensei



Because they were already summoned and talking... They were clearly nerfed to mindlessness AFTER the tag was applied.

So I am good on this one, have your W my guy. Winner by forfeit.


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, you are making the positive claim that YOUR interpretation of what the Databook said overrules what the manga _actually_ says and shows. In other words, you're arguing your biased interpretation of a secondary source > the direct words of a primary source. That's super arrogant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) The DB (and the Manga) say Enma is Adamantine and A3 is steel that isn’t my interpretation that’s verbatim what’s stated. The only interpretation here is your positive claim that Kishimoto is not accounting for varying durabilities in steel therefore the DB is wrong 

2) Aegon find me and definition that says something written by the same Author about the same character is not or less Canon. Since once again you are making the positive claim that the DBs are less canon then the Manga 

3)I don’t really need to prove that Enma is actually indestructible just that is held in higher reverence by the author and the characters then A3 steel body, which is an inferior description to Adamantine. 

However if you want to force a literal comparison instead of accepting a figurative one just try and avoid conceding the point. Kongou or Adamantine is considered indestructible in this context anyway. That’s why the Viz translation literally translates it as indestructible:

Enma says the Ksunagi will cause him pain:

Causing pain isn’t the same thing as being destroyed so your refutation makes no sense 

4) Enma wasn’t even scratched after being smashed against the Ksunagi sword multiple times, what Feat does Base A3 have that’s demonstrably better then this 

5) I don’t need to prove Power = DC AoE. Your once again the one making the positive claim that power here is strictly talking about attack potency and therefore the DB descriptions are wrong. It’s your burden to prove this, all I have to do here is explain why there is another equal (or better) interpretation for what the author could mean by power. And I have demonstrated this by literally explaining the definition of “Power” to you, and also explaining to you that the author is specifically using examples that speak towards scale of what the attack can destroy, not strictly attack potency.

There is nothing left for me to do here on my side of the debate 

6) Aegon what’s a no brainer is that we literally see the sword doesn’t scratch Enma after clashing multiple times, like da fuck are you on about  

7) This is some next level denial of Canon Aegon, truly. Literally the same exact thing happens with Enma and Ksunagi. Ksunagi was deflected multiple times by Enma here:

Ksunagi is then literally knocked away by Enma too:

The only difference is that Orochimaru kept hold of the sword longer then Sasuke, which has to do with his grip on the blade not Enma’s durability for 10th time ‍♂

8) Aegon two object both being able to deflect Ksunagi does not make them the same in durability, that’s so 

All that means is both are durable enough to deflect Ksunagi. The same way Steel and Diamond would both deflect a knife slash, but it doesn’t make one more durable then the other 
—-
And sure we can ask @t0xeus @Ludi @ThirdRidoku

To look over these posts and judge these points.

Primarily it seems like the debate is coming down mostly to deciding whose burden of proof it is in several points; and this last point about the Ksunagi sword so maybe one of them can at least judge those points

Reactions: Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Azula (Nov 19, 2022)



Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) The DB (and the Manga) say Enma is Adamantine and A3 is steel that isn’t my interpretation that’s verbatim what’s stated. The only interpretation here is your positive claim that Kishimoto is not accounting for varying durabilities in steel therefore the DB is wrong
> 
> 2) Aegon find me and definition that says something written by the same Author about the same character is not or less Canon. Since once again you are making the positive claim that the DBs are less canon then the Manga
> 
> ...


Well Oro's kusanagi when thrusted with forest level destroying force by Sick Oro still capped way below kn4, while Sasuke's capped well  below V1 A4.  I'm not sure that base A3 is more durable than kn4 though. 
Emma's concession that the kusanagi could cause him pain is a sign that they are on the same plane of existence in terms of durability. As it means kusanagi can be thrusted on him with enough force to cause him pain in the clashes without breaking itself.  so it's like the pressure from the kusanagi doesn't cut him but it deforms emma's metal body enough to cause pain.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Nov 19, 2022)

Azula said:


>


this thread turned out better than expected tbh...

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 19, 2022)

@Trojan 
Totsuka beat Nagato and orochimaru 
What has enma done but fail 
Comparing the 2 is clowny you can do better


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## Trojan (Nov 19, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> What has enma done but fail


destroyed the Tree's branches...


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 19, 2022)

Trojan said:


> destroyed the Tree's branches...


Would think trees that can’t defend themsleves would be weaker than Nagato


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## Trojan (Nov 19, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Would think trees that can’t defend themsleves would be weaker than Nagato


So, you agree that Nagato > Hashirama?


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 19, 2022)

Trojan said:


> So, you agree that Nagato > Hashirama?


Nagato > some random tree 
Surely 
Even Minato > rocks 
however the floor >> minato


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## Trojan (Nov 19, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Nagato > some random tree


> juubi
> Random Tree
>


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 19, 2022)

Trojan said:


> > juubi
> > Random Tree
> >


 
Hussain < common sense


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Well Oro's kusanagi when thrusted with forest level destroying force by Sick Oro still capped way below kn4, while Sasuke's capped well  below V1 A4.  I'm not sure that base A3 is more durable than kn4 though.
> Emma's concession that the kusanagi could cause him pain is a sign that they are on the same plane of existence in terms of durability. As it means kusanagi can be thrusted on him with enough force to cause him pain in the clashes without breaking itself.  so it's like the pressure from the kusanagi doesn't cut him but it deforms emma's metal body enough to cause pain.


The metal body doesn’t need to be deformed to cause pain. Someone can punch me in the arm and it can hurt without me being deformed or suffering any real damage.
——
But can you give a verdict on the points involving whose burden of proof it is and the points about whether Sasuke loosing his Ksunagi in the clash with A4 has to do with his grip or durability; as well as if two objects deflect the same thing if they need to be the same durability

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) The DB (and the Manga) say Enma is Adamantine and A3 is steel that isn’t my interpretation that’s verbatim what’s stated



A3 obviously isn't literally made of steel whereas Enma actually _is_ adamantine. 

Therefore, your comparison was, is, and always will be off-base.



Turrin said:


> The only interpretation here is your positive claim that Kishimoto is not accounting for varying durabilities in steel therefore the DB is wrong



That's a negative claim, actually. You are the one arguing Kishimoto is accounting for varying durabilities in steel, even though Kishimoto never actually implies he is taking variances into consideration.

He never says A3 is "strong steel" or Guy is "weak steel". He just simply says they both have bodies of steel, which is obviously a metaphor and not meant to be taken literally regardless of whether it's an overestimate or underestimate. 



Turrin said:


> 2) Aegon find me and definition that says something written by the same Author about the same character is not or less Canon



It's called common sense. The manga is the actual material we are discussing, the Databooks are the side materials. The actual story will always take precedence.



Turrin said:


> Since once again you are making the positive claim that the DBs are less canon then the Manga



You made the positive claim they are equally canon, actually. 



Turrin said:


> 3)I don’t really need to prove that Enma is actually indestructible just that is held in higher reverence by the author and the characters then A3 steel body



You have not proven that either. Not only does Kishimoto use entirely different forms of comparison (Enma is _literally_ adamantine whereas A3 is _metaphorically_ steel), he also never compared them directly. Something you still need to accept. The rest comes down to feats.



Turrin said:


> However if you want to force a literal comparison instead of accepting a figurative one just try and avoid conceding the point. Kongou or Adamantine is considered indestructible in this context anyway. That’s why the Viz translation literally translates it as indestructible:
> 
> Enma says the Ksunagi will cause him pain:
> 
> Causing pain isn’t the same thing as being destroyed so your refutation makes no sense



Being indestructible means being immune to destruction. Taking pain and taking scratches are pretty much the same thing and scratches can already be considered (severely minor) destruction.

Ergo, wrong as usual. 



Turrin said:


> 4) Enma wasn’t even scratched after being smashed against the Ksunagi sword multiple times, what Feat does Base A3 have that’s demonstrably better then this



You need to prove being smashed against the Kusanagi thrice by a _superior_ CQC user (Hiruzen >> Oro, _also_ according to your precious Databooks) is comparable to any feat from Base A3, who tanked Temari and company's Fuutons. 

Temari was the Alliance's strongest user of the best element for cutting (Fuuton) until Naruto joined in, and I can easily stoop down to your level of dishonesty by pointing out how she can "destroy the universe", which is magnitudes better "muh adamantine".



Turrin said:


> 5) I don’t need to prove Power = DC AoE



You do, as you said they are the same.



Turrin said:


> Your once again the one making the positive claim that power here is strictly talking about attack potency



Stop lying. I said that it CAN mean attack potency OR destructive capacity and that you are the one asserting it _has_ to mean the latter (when DB4 never does).



Turrin said:


> 6) Aegon what’s a no brainer is that we literally see the sword doesn’t scratch Enma after clashing multiple times, like da fuck are you on about



Willful ignorance. See above.



Turrin said:


> 7) This is some next level denial of Canon Aegon, truly. Literally the same exact thing happens with Enma and Ksunagi. Ksunagi was deflected multiple times by Enma here:



Actually, Enma and Kusanagi deflected _each other_. It was a _stalemate_ until Enma finally won and dislodged Kusanagi from Orochimaru's grip. More lies b



Turrin said:


> Ksunagi is then literally knocked away by Enma too:



Enma needed 3 clashes or so to dislodge Oro's Kusanagi when A4 only needed one clash (if you can even call it a clash) to dislodge Sasuke's. 3 > 1 and Sasuke's Kusanagi > Oro's. Ergo, RCM1 >> Enma.



Turrin said:


> The only difference is that Orochimaru kept hold of the sword longer then Sasuke, which has to do with his grip on the blade not Enma’s durability for 10th time ‍♂



Both. If Enma was durable enough, it would have just shattered Kusanagi like Sasuke's Susano'o shattered Danzo's  kunai or immediately dislodged it like RCM did Sasuke's Chidorigatana.



Turrin said:


> 8) Aegon two object both being able to deflect Ksunagi does not make them the same in durability, that’s so



It makes them roughly equal, and given RCM went up against the superior one and did better, RCM >>> Enma.



Turrin said:


> All that means is both are durable enough to deflect Ksunagi. The same way Steel and Diamond would both deflect a knife slash, but it doesn’t make one more durable then the other



Trash.

If one substance counters a knife slash even better than the other (as RCM did compared to Enma) and a stronger one at that, that substance is better. Period.



Turrin said:


> —-
> And sure we can ask @t0xeus @Ludi @ThirdRidoku
> 
> To look over these posts and judge these points.
> ...



@t0xeus @ThirdRidoku @Ludi Would appreciate having feedback from you guys.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> The metal body doesn’t need to be deformed to cause pain. Someone can punch me in the arm and it can hurt without me being deformed or suffering any real damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pain is caused when the threshold of deformation reaches a level that the nerves complain about it. it's the same reason why if you start to press on a wall with your fist, it will still hurting, as the wall is too durable. im not saying this is easily visible or significant deformation  but it exists.  u wouldn't feel much pain with your fist when pushing a piece of  paper though.   

well if two objects deflect off the  same thing it just means it's more so a measure of elasticity, as in they were both able to deform, then convert this deformation back into Kinetic energy, ghe primary reasoning for deformation being that they couldn't deform or accelerate the object they collided with enough- implying they weren't able to transfer enough energy to the object they were bouncing off of, so both failed to meet the threshold needed to deform the deflecting object enough. but they don't have to be the exact same durability. Like the Yata Mirror reflected Sasuke's Kusanagi, but it could deflect konohamaru's kunai as well and that doesn't mean konohamaru kunai = kusanagi. I'm not entirely clear if that answers the question.

Also what do you mean by Sasuke's grip?


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 19, 2022)

More circle jerking by the expert


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Pain is caused when the threshold of deformation reaches a level that the nerves complain about it. it's the same reason why if you start to press on a wall with your fist, it will still hurting, as the wall is too durable. im not saying this is easily visible or significant deformation  but it exists.  u wouldn't feel much pain with your fist when pushing a piece of  paper though.
> 
> well if two objects deflect off the  same thing it just means it's more so a measure of elasticity, as in they were both able to deform, then convert this deformation back into Kinetic energy, ghe primary reasoning for deformation being that they couldn't deform or accelerate the object they collided with enough- implying they weren't able to transfer enough energy to the object they were bouncing off of, so both failed to meet the threshold needed to deform the deflecting object enough. but they don't have to be the exact same durability. Like the Yata Mirror reflected Sasuke's Kusanagi, but it could deflect konohamaru's kunai as well and that doesn't mean konohamaru kunai = kusanagi. I'm not entirely clear if that answers the question.
> 
> Also what do you mean by Sasuke's grip?


So your saying in instance where there is no visible damage at all, there is still Imperceptibly small deformation going on? But if such deformation is so imperceptibly small, I don’t see  this as relevant to Aegon and I’s conversation unless I’m not understanding something. As causing something imperceptibly small deformation isn’t coming anywhere close to destroying it.
——
So @Aegon Targaryen  is wrong then about that  RNY point .
——
And by Grip what I mean is Aegon keeps arguing because Sasuke lost his grip on his Ksunagi after hitting A4 RNY shroud once, RNY is more durable then Enma, which Orochimaru didn’t loose his grip on until after multiple clashes. I told Aegon this doesn’t have to do with Durability (other then RNY and Enma both being durable enough to withstand the attack) but someone’s Grip strength and the energy created from the clash.

So we need a ruling on that and On whose burden of proof it is in multiple points


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> A3 obviously isn't literally made of steel whereas Enma actually _is_ adamantine.
> 
> Therefore, your comparison was, is, and always will be off-base.
> 
> ...


1) Aegon if your conceding Enma actually is Adamantine then the debate is over as Adamantine is indestructible/highest level of durability possible 

So I’m arguing from the stance that Enma being called Adamantine is figurative, because otherwise the debate would be totally unnecessary in the first place.

So let me know if you want to concede this point or the entire debate 

2) Aegon I’ll make this extremely simple.

The *Original Claim *Being Made here yours that:

*“Gai and A3 are both compared to Steel, so Kishi is calling their durability equal, which it isn’t, therefore the DB is wrong”.*

The burden of proof is therefore on you to provide evidence for every part of that claim.

Part 1: *That Kishi is comparing Gai and A3 to the same steel*

Part 2: *That A3 is significantly more durable in Base then Gai *

So far you haven’t provided a single bit of evidence for ether part of these claims.

Instead for Part 1, you are attempting to shift the burden on to me by saying I have to provide evidence that Kishi is aware of that Steel can have varying durabilities and was comparing A3/Gai to different types of Steel.

And in Part 2, you’ve only ever argued incredulously saying that there is no way Gai can be relative to Base A3.

@ThirdRidoku @Ludi @t0xeus

Can someone please explain to Aegon why this is his burden of Proof not mine 

3) I don’t care what you think is common sense Aegon, I care what you can prove. Bring something that says DBs are less canon then the Manga, or drop the point

4) Destroy - “put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.”

Enma taking a scratch (which didn’t even happen) does not put an end to its existence, anymore then idk about you, but a paper cut ends my existence 

5) Temari’s Fuuton Cut A3, so that’s not comparable to taking an attack without being scratched in the first place. So idk why that’s even being brought up.

Base A3 best durability feat that involves not being scratched is moving via Mabui’s transmission technique without taking any noticeable damage like A4. Tsunade was also transferred by that Technique and got cut up by it, but not nearly as deeply as she was cut by Ksunagi. So Enma tanking Ksunagi w/o a scratch is simply a better feat then A3’s best one in Base

6) No Aegon, once again I will make this really simple for you.

The *Original Claim *Being Made here yours that:

*“TSO entry says has the power to destroy a forest and Kirin’s says it has the power to destroy a mountain, so the DB is wrong, since TSO > Kirin”.*

The burden of proof is therefore on you to provide evidence for every part of that claim.

Part 1: *That Kishi is talking about attack potency there, not the scale of the damage each attack can cause, when he says “power” in that context *

Part 2: *That when Kishi says it can destroy a forest he is referring to a forest that’s smaller then a mountain when their are thousands of forests that exceed that scale*

@ThirdRidoku @Ludi @t0xeus

Can you please look at this point too

7) Once again Aegon, when Sasuke and Orochimaru doesn’t have to do with Durability (other then RNY and Enma both being durable enough to withstand the attack) but someone’s Grip strength and the energy created from the clash.

@ThirdRidoku @Ludi @t0xeus

Please check this point if you can too

8) Third already ruled that your wrong on this point that two object both being able to deflect Ksunagi does not make them the same in durability, so….

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## Sparks (Nov 19, 2022)

Itachi low diffs.

There should not be six pages for this...

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 19, 2022)

I'll wait for the moderators to judge. Not interested in listening to more of your dishonest babble @Turrin.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Nov 19, 2022)

Sparks said:


> Itachi low diffs.
> 
> There should not be six pages for this...


here comes Mr. Wrong... 


I was waiting for your answer about Isshiki >>> Deamon/Eida...
since you didn't answer, I take it you know you are wrong, but you don't want to admit it?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ludi (Nov 19, 2022)

In general if the both of you want an official debate I'd prefer a seperate thread with both of you posting your points within X posts, with an opening etc. This is a bit hectic for me.

@Turrin @Aegon Targaryen



Turrin said:


> “Gai and A3 are both compared to Steel, so Kishi is calling their durability equal, which it isn’t, therefore the DB is wrong”



There should be proof why the DB is wrong, why Gai and A3 in base cannot be equal in durability. 



Turrin said:


> “TSO entry says has the power to destroy a forest and Kirin’s says it has the power to destroy a mountain, so the DB is wrong, since TSO > Kirin”.



There should be proof why the DB is wrong as forest and mountain are some term which both could be > the other. Neither is exclusively bigger than the other. 


I don't really understand the last point.

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 19, 2022)

I don't want an official debate with @Turrin. I think I've already laid out my points and really don't want to rehash myself even more than I've already been doing. We can go over individual points one-by-one, if that works better for you. 



Ludi said:


> In general if the both of you want an official debate I'd prefer a seperate thread with both of you posting your points within X posts, with an opening etc. This is a bit hectic for me.
> 
> @Turrin @Aegon Targaryen
> 
> ...



I mean, Turrin already conceded A3 and Base Guy aren't equal in durability. But if you want proof, Base Guy got roughed up by 30% Kisame, even spitting blood when punched by the latter. I don't really think 30% Kisame's punch warrants a comparison with any Rasenshuriken we've ever seen.

Mountains being > forests is kind of a given, bruh. Of course there can be exceptions, but I would definitely consider a mountain bigger if I had no other context.


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## Ludi (Nov 19, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Mountains being > forests is kind of a given, bruh. Of course there can be exceptions, but I would definitely consider a mountain bigger if I had no other context



That's an assumption.  I don't agree either by definition is bigger. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, Turrin already conceded A3 and Base Guy aren't equal in durability. But if you want proof, Base Guy got roughed up by 30% Kisame, even spitting blood when punched by the latter. I don't really think 30% Kisame's punch warrants a comparison with any Rasenshuriken we've ever seen.


Are you talking about base A3 here? And did @Turrin  concede that base A3 is weaker in durability than base Guy? Then I wouldn't see the point of wanting a judge on that point. I didn't see that part anyway but haven't read all posts.


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> That's an assumption.  I don't agree either by definition is bigger.
> 
> 
> Are you talking about base A3 here? And did @Turrin  concede that base A3 is weaker in durability than base Guy? Then I wouldn't see the point of wanting a judge on that point. I didn't see that part anyway but haven't read all posts.


I didn’t concede it, I just didn’t argue it yet as I don’t think it becomes relevant unless Aegon can prove  Part 1: *That Kishi is comparing Gai and A3 to the same steel*

As I told Aegon steel can have varying durabilities so both can be Steel like, but still one can be much more durable then the other.

So I can argue the Gai and A3 thing, but I think first if you can rule on whether he needs to give evidence on Part 1 that would be best, as it would effective resolve the point if he needs to give evidence and can’t 
—-
Also thanks for taking the time to judge this


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> In general if the both of you want an official debate I'd prefer a seperate thread with both of you posting your points within X posts, with an opening etc. This is a bit hectic for me.
> 
> @Turrin @Aegon Targaryen
> 
> ...


For the last point Aegon is arguing that because Sasuke lost his grub on his sword from it clashing with RNY, it’s more durable then Enma, because Orochimaru didn’t loose his grip until the 5th strike. But to me this is not strictly about durability but about Grip strength and how much force was generated in the clash


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> So your saying in instance where there is no visible damage at all, there is still Imperceptibly small deformation going on? But if such deformation is so imperceptibly small, I don’t see this as relevant to Aegon and I’s conversation unless I’m not understanding something. As causing something imperceptibly small deformation isn’t coming anywhere close to destroying it.
> ——


Well I'm saying it's also a fair point that Emma fears the durability of the kusanagi. Because as I said if you press your fist against a wall as hard as you can for a few seconds it will feel sore due to the difference in durability and the fact the wall is effectively an immovable object. Same story if you punch the wall as hard as you can, you may not even dent it but your fist sure will be hurt, and even if you could break the wall your fist would probably be sore, if not bruised or worse. So it's fair to say that there could be durability relativity between Emma and kusanagi, it's not like emma was able to cut through it like he did to the God Tree in the War



Turrin said:


> So @Aegon Targaryen is wrong then about that RNY point .


I'm not entirely following but i'm also saying it's weird to compare things based on bouncing off. Because for example, take a ball and throw it at a wall softly. obviously it won't bounce very much because you didn't throw it with enough force in the first place. but if you throw the same exact ball harder next time, then it will bounce even more since Kinetic energy has to be conserved ( assuming elastic collision for simplicity). Since the wall is not moving or deforming ( or extremely small deformation) due to its massive durability and rigidity, all the kinetic energy must go back into the ball. Up to a certain point, the ball will be able to elastically deform and bounce off with roughly the same amount of kinetic energy you initially threw it. But at a certain point, the force from the collision will exceed the elastic limit of the ball and it will start to both bounce off and deform. And at that point the wall may still not even be cracked depending on how much more durable it is than the material of the ball.

So when comparing two different objects bouncing off, you  have to obviously consider how much kinetic energy it was originally thrown or thrusted with ( which obviously varies depending on the physical strength of the wielder) and you also have to consider mass and volume too. Two objects with almost alll else equal  could have the same mass and thus bounce off at the same speed in theory,  but their durability can be different if the volume is different, as it means their density will be different too and it's really density that determines durability not just mass, in addition to of course the strength and properties of the molecular bonds within the object. And if your object isn't elastic but is brittle, it obviously won't bounce much at all ( think of throwing a book at a wall or dropping it on the floor as compared to a ball) and the kinetic energy is converted moreso into heat and sound due to the high inelasticity of the collision.


So the amount of deformation, the amount of bouncing off is a lot more complicated to compare unless you can really analyze the specific circumstances down to a science. I think it's more useful to look at examples of where the wielder is maximally applying force but their weapon breaks while their target doesn't (i.e. Kimmiaro bone spear vs shield of shukaku, or danzo's kunai vs Sasuke's rib cage susano'o) as that's a clear indication that shield of shukaku and susano'o were much more durable than the bone spear and kunai respectively.


so that's why I'm not quite understanding the scenario here.




Turrin said:


> And by Grip what I mean is Aegon keeps arguing because Sasuke lost his grip on his Ksunagi after hitting A4 RNY shroud once, RNY is more durable then Enma, which Orochimaru didn’t loose his grip on until after multiple clashes. I told Aegon this doesn’t have to do with Durability (other then RNY and Enma both being durable enough to withstand the attack) but someone’s Grip strength and the energy created from the clash.



well that's what I'm saying too, sasuke also lost his grip on the kusanagi vs yata mirror but it depends on the force he is thrusting to begin with and prior knowledge of the character's durability. If you are expecting to cut through something but it's far more durable than expected then you could be surprised by the counter-force enough to lose  your grip.  it depends on the physical strength of the characters as well. Think about it, even though a knife can cut bread,  you still need to apply a minimum force to cut it or your knife isn't going through. But as I said, it is a valid point that Emma complains about kusanagi and orochimaru's ability to clash with it  without losing grip for a while may imply he doesn't need to exert much force to annoy emma due to the blade's sharpness and other properties.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I don't want an official debate with @Turrin. I think I've already laid out my points and really don't want to rehash myself even more than I've already been doing. We can go over individual points one-by-one, if that works better for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aegon you can’t use feats from the Kisame fight because Gai got a Zenkai boost after that fight because he used Gates, so Gai is simply 150% Kurama’s stronger after that fight and now his body is steel 

I think even Aegon will have to agree he clearly needs to concede this point

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ludi (Nov 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I didn’t concede it, I just didn’t argue it yet as I don’t think it becomes relevant unless Aegon can prove  Part 1: *That Kishi is comparing Gai and A3 to the same steel*
> 
> As I told Aegon steel can have varying durabilities so both can be Steel like, but still one can be much more durable then the other.
> 
> ...



I don't know how the author wrote it in the original kanji. If both are with the same signs and both compare durability to steel within the same verse I'd probably consider it to be more likely it was compared to the same material than it being more likely different steel. But the side that uses it as a point probably should provide evidence for whatever they use, as I understand not all steel are equal.  Personally I don't think it's most likely it has to be different types of steel myself, but assuming equal steel is also an assumption.

So the one who is dependent on it being equal or different should provide evidence. I think both of you rely on it similarly and Either way I don't think you can prove either side so I'm not sure if it's a good measure in general.




Turrin said:


> For the last point Aegon is arguing that because Sasuke lost his grub on his sword from it clashing with RNY, it’s more durable then Enma, because Orochimaru didn’t loose his grip until the 5th strike. But to me this is not strictly about durability but about Grip strength and how much force was generated in the clash


I think assuming equal grip between all characters is an assumption you'd have to prove.



Also which base Guy is being used? The one in BoS or one that has improved after that?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> That's an assumption


 
A reasonable one.



Ludi said:


> I don't agree either by definition is bigger.



Ok.



Ludi said:


> Are you talking about base A3 here?



Technically, both base and RCM.



Ludi said:


> And did @Turrin  concede that base A3 is weaker in durability than base Guy?



IIRC, he said at one time he didn't concede, but he dropped the point instead of defending it. I'd say he had the burden to argue that but failed to follow through.



Ludi said:


> Then I wouldn't see the point of wanting a judge on that point. I didn't see that part anyway but haven't read all posts.



Hmm.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 19, 2022)

@Ludi I was using BoS Guy, as this is the one referenced in both the DB entry and the "steel body" statement.


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Ludi I was using BoS Guy, as this is the one referenced in both the DB entry and the "steel body" statement.


That’s not BoS Gai it’s Pain Arc Guy basically, as DB3 goes up to the end of the Uchiha bros arc.  Remember Post-Zenkai

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I don't know how the author wrote it in the original kanji. If both are with the same signs and both compare durability to steel within the same verse I'd probably consider it to be more likely it was compared to the same material than it being more likely different steel. But the side that uses it as a point probably should provide evidence for whatever they use, as I understand not all steel are equal.  Personally I don't think it's most likely it has to be different types of steel myself, but assuming equal steel is also an assumption.
> 
> So the one who is dependent on it being equal or different should provide evidence. I think both of you rely on it similarly and Either way I don't think you can prove either side so I'm not sure if it's a good measure in general.
> 
> ...


So basically Aegon is responsible for evidence on all points I told him he was. Thank you Ludi.

And we are talking about Enma being over Base A3 and unknown who is better between RNY A3 and Enma. At least that’s my contention while Aegon contends Base A3 is more durable and RNY is laughable more durable


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> So basically Aegon is responsible for evidence on all points I told him he was. Thank you Ludi



Read his post more carefully instead of just what you wanted to see.



Ludi said:


> I don't know how the author wrote it in the original kanji. *If both are with the same signs and both compare durability to steel within the same verse I'd probably consider it to be more likely it was compared to the same material than it being more likely different steel*. But *the side that uses it as a point probably should provide evidence for whatever they use*, as I understand not all steel are equal.  Personally *I don't think it's most likely it has to be different types of steel myself*, but assuming equal steel is also an assumption



_You_ are the one who initiated the steel comparisons (with A3), not me. 

Not just that:



Ludi said:


> So the one who is dependent on it being equal or different should provide evidence. I think *both of you rely on it similarly* and *Either way I don't think you can prove either side so I'm not sure if it's a good measure in general *



I don't necessarily agree with Ludi here as I think my side is backed up by Occam's razor, but he doesn't favor you over me either. A fact you conveniently ignored.


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## Ludi (Nov 20, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> A reasonable one.


You'd have to show evidence why it's reasonable then. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Ludi I was using BoS Guy, as this is the one referenced in both the DB entry and the "steel body" statement.


I am not sure if the DB is talking about BoS Guy or Guy up to some other arc, I think it's up to PA actually. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> but he doesn't favor you over me either. A fact you conveniently ignored.


I think the one who's argument relies on it either being the same or different needs to show evidence. I think both of you rely on it to some degree, unless one side only relies on it as its, regardless of being the same steel or not, scaling towards adamantine.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Read his post more carefully instead of just what you wanted to see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aegon I did not bring up the Gai comparison you did. That’s what Ludi is saying is your burden of proof.
—-
Your the only side that relies on it being the same steel. I don’t as my comparison I’m making is simply to Adamantine being harder then any kind of steel, so it doesn’t matter to my point. It only matters to yours that the DB has to be wrong due to Gai vs A3 which only works if Kishimoto is saying all Steel is equal in durability despite this not being the case in the real world.


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

Ludi said:


> You'd have to show evidence why it's reasonable then.
> 
> I am not sure if the DB is talking about BoS Guy or Guy up to some other arc, I think it's up to PA actually.
> 
> ...


Only Aegon side relies on it, as the type of steel it is doesn’t matter for my comparison to Adamantine (as Adamantine is more durable t then any type of Steel); it only matters to Aegon’s point of A3 vs Gai being equally durable.


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Aegon I did not bring up the Gai comparison you did. That’s what Ludi is saying is your burden of proof.
> —-
> Your the only side that relies on it being the same steel. I don’t as my comparison I’m making is simply to Adamantine being harder then any kind of steel, so it doesn’t matter to my point. It only matters to yours that the DB has to be wrong due to Gai vs A3 which only works if Kishimoto is saying all Steel is equal in durability despite this not being the case in the real world.


Throw Kimimaro into the mix as he is also referred to as being as hard as steel 
Which points to DB material references being rubbish 
now as to if enma is harder than A3 frankly that’s baseless 
Unless you believe Kakuzu to be more durable than A3 , as Kakuzu was referred to as diamond hard which is clearly above steel


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

Also @Aegon Targaryen I want to point out to you at this point that even if Ludi were to rule in your favor on one of these sub points like A3 vs Gai (which so far he isn’t), your overarching premise that the DB can’t be used in all instance since it can be shown to be wrong sometimes is still a fundamentally flawed argument reliant on the Hasty Generalization fallacy, and therefore not an acceptable refutation to my point in the first place.

“Hasty generalizations 

Description: Drawing a conclusion based on a small sample size, rather than looking at statistics that are much more in line with the typical or average situation.

Logical Form:

Sample S is taken from population P.

Sample S is a very small part of population P.

Conclusion C is drawn from sample S and applied to population P.”

Your drawing a conclusion about all the information in the DBs being erroneous from sample size (in this case 1-2 points of the DB being wrong, but even if it was more) S. Sample S is a very small portion of the DB’s information or Population P. Most of P content ends up being accurate and useable to fans in the story. So to argue because of S, you can draw the conclusion C that the DB is wrong is simply an incorrect argument to begin with

I brought this up to you earlier in the debate as well giving you the example of the Manga itself as well, as we can point to incorrect statements in the Manga, and make the same argument that due to several incorrect Sample S statements the entire population of P statements of the manga should be ignored. Which clearly no one agrees with, because it is also a hasty generalization fallacy.

That’s why the only proper way to conduction an argument is to address each case individually, in this case A3 vs Enma (or at least higher durability vs lower durability statements), not argue other examples to try to disprove the credibility of the DB.


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Throw Kimimaro into the mix as he is also referred to as being as hard as steel
> Which points to DB material references being rubbish
> now as to if enma is harder than A3 frankly that’s baseless
> Unless you believe Kakuzu to be more durable than A3 , as Kakuzu was referred to as diamond hard which is clearly above steel


Your literally committing the same exact flawed argument as Aegon that a judge just ruled doesn’t work 

Yes I believe Kakuzu in Diamond Morph form is more durable then Base A3. Assuming he is indeed call Diamond level in the raw Japanese or Shonensuki’s DB translation (I’d have to look it up)


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Your literally committing the same exact flawed argument as Aegon that a judge just ruled doesn’t work
> 
> Yes I believe Kakuzu in Diamond Morph form is more durable then Base A3. Assuming he is indeed call Diamond level in the raw Japanese or Shonensuki’s DB translation (I’d have to look it up)


 so you believe Kakuzu can tank FRS
Ok


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> so you believe Kakuzu can tank FRS
> Ok


Base A3 didn’t tank FRS

RNY A3 tanked FRS.

However do I think Domu Kakuzu can tank FRS, we’ll that depends on how FRS’s Chakra Severing Needles work, because even Kakuzu without Domu’s body survived FRS, he simply was done in as his chakra network was severed by the needles. So if the needles simply bypass durability then Kakuzu will end up the same way as before and even A3 would have ended up that way if not for Edo Regen.

If the needles can be stopped by suitable durability, then it’s debatable as Domu has no Anti-Feats except against the element it’s weak too, and since Kakuzu’s body without the Domu amp still survived, it’s very possible he could tank the attack with the Domu amp
—-
Also RNY and Domu are basically the same thing of cloaking the body in an Element. RNY made A3 go from taking damage from Temari’s attack to tanking FRS, despite having the Elemental disadvantage to Wind. So Domu allowing Kakuzu to tank an attack he otherwise couldn’t when it doesn’t have a disadvantage to win is very possible


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Base A3 didn’t tank FRS
> 
> RNY A3 tanked FRS.
> 
> ...


How much does RNY boost him
Seeing his entire hype is on his body not once is RCM mentioned 
But sure circle jerk some more 
point here is steel is evidently harder than diamond in kishi mind as he hyped A3 for an absolute defence and not Kakuzu


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Well I'm saying it's also a fair point that Emma fears the durability of the kusanagi. Because as I said if you press your fist against a wall as hard as you can for a few seconds it will feel sore due to the difference in durability and the fact the wall is effectively an immovable object. Same story if you punch the wall as hard as you can, you may not even dent it but your fist sure will be hurt, and even if you could break the wall your fist would probably be sore, if not bruised or worse. So it's fair to say that there could be durability relativity between Emma and kusanagi, it's not like emma was able to cut through it like he did to the God Tree in the War
> 
> 
> I'm not entirely following but i'm also saying it's weird to compare things based on bouncing off. Because for example, take a ball and throw it at a wall softly. obviously it won't bounce very much because you didn't throw it with enough force in the first place. but if you throw the same exact ball harder next time, then it will bounce even more since Kinetic energy has to be conserved ( assuming elastic collision for simplicity). Since the wall is not moving or deforming ( or extremely small deformation) due to its massive durability and rigidity, all the kinetic energy must go back into the ball. Up to a certain point, the ball will be able to elastically deform and bounce off with roughly the same amount of kinetic energy you initially threw it. But at a certain point, the force from the collision will exceed the elastic limit of the ball and it will start to both bounce off and deform. And at that point the wall may still not even be cracked depending on how much more durable it is than the material of the ball.
> ...


1) Sure but I still don’t see how “could be” relativity to the two furthers ether side of the Debate it’s not like we see Ksunagi sword shattered on A3. Ksunagi’s swords also have some insane durability themselves.

2) Agreed, I’m telling Aegon it’s not good to try to force a comparison based on this. So I think you do understand the scenario. 

3) Agreed again, this is exactly what I’m trying to tell Aegon that loosing one’s grip is dependent on many factors besides durability.

Please read this post at @Aegon Targaryen


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> How much does RNY boost him
> Seeing his entire hype is on his body not once is RCM mentioned
> But sure circle jerk some more
> point here is steel is evidently harder than diamond in kishi mind as he hyped A3 for an absolute defence and not Kakuzu


From being damaged by Temari to tanking FRS, with no damage despite Naruto being stated to have stronger Wind Release the Temari. So by a significant margin.
—-
He hyped Kakuzu for Diamond durability not A3. A3 also was hype of having an absolute defense was proven false in the Narrative itself, like that was the entire point of A3 and Naruto’s battle. So no clearly falsified hype doesn’t overcome a statement of Domu’s durability which nothing contradicts.

Also Domu would never be called an absolute defense as it has a clear weakness to Raiton.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> From being damaged by Temari to tanking FRS, with no damage despite Naruto being stated to have stronger Wind Release the Temari. So by a significant margin.
> —-
> He hyped Kakuzu for Diamond durability not A3. A3 also was hype of having an absolute defense was proven false in the Narrative itself, like that was the entire point of A3 and Naruto’s battle. So no clearly falsified hype doesn’t overcome a statement of Domu’s durability which nothing contradicts.
> 
> Also Domu would never be called an absolute defense as it has a clear weakness to Raiton.


I know he hyped Kakuzu for being diamond hard j mentioned it 
Yet he doesn’t claim Kakuzu has an absolute defence yet someone with a steel body is said to possess such . In fact he said the same of kimimaro yet not once is Kakuzu referred to in that way
Thus in kishi mind steel > diamond

 
A3 was defeated by his nikute which is >>>>>>>>>>raikiri which ran through domu 
You not helping your case here


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> I know he hyped Kakuzu for being diamond hard j mentioned it
> Yet he doesn’t claim Kakuzu has an absolute defence yet someone with a steel body is said to possess such . In fact he said the same of kimimaro yet not once is Kakuzu referred to in that way
> Thus in kishi mind steel > diamond
> 
> ...


Kishi doesn’t claim A3 has an absolute defense ether. Dodai does and then is directly shown to be wrong 

The only claim Kishi is making is that Domu is Diamond and Base A3 is Steel.
—-
Domu is also weak to Raiton and A3 is not. So this is a faulty comparison to begin with

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Kishi doesn’t claim A3 has an absolute defense ether. Dodai does and then is directly shown to be wrong


No one claims such for Kakuzu splitting hairs is getting you no where 


Turrin said:


> The only claim Kishi is making is that Domu is Diamond and Base A3 is Steel.


And Kakuzu gets no absolute defence hype while A3 does . Thus A3 is evidently more durable than Kakuzu 


Turrin said:


> —-
> Domu is also weak to Raiton and A3 is not. So this is a faulty comparison to begin with


A3 is weak to futon and he tanked something far stronger than raikiri 
So using weakness again gets you no where


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 20, 2022)

Ludi said:


> You'd have to show evidence why it's reasonable then



No, I don't.



Ludi said:


> I am not sure if the DB is talking about BoS Guy or Guy up to some other arc, I think it's up to PA actually



It could be, but Occam's razor implies it's talking about BoS Guy at the very least (too). 



Ludi said:


> I think the one who's argument relies on it either being the same or different needs to show evidence. I think both of you rely on it to some degree, unless one side only relies on it as its, regardless of being the same steel or not, scaling towards adamantine.



I mean, I've already shown evidence A3 > Base Guy. Matter of fact, I shouldn't have had to. 

Lumping in a metaphorical comparison to steel with a literal comparison to adamantine doesn't make sense and is already flawed.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> No one claims such for Kakuzu splitting hairs is getting you no where
> 
> And Kakuzu gets no absolute defence hype while A3 does . Thus A3 is evidently more durable than Kakuzu
> 
> ...


MHA anyone will tell you a claim that was directly proven false has no merit in this discussion.
—-
He gets tons of defense hype in the DB.
—-
Okay and all that means is A3’s Body is more durable then Kakuzu’s without their Jutsu factored in or that Raiton acted as more of a hard counter to Domu then wind did RNY, as we have seen Elemental interactions differ. Deidara’s bombs for example being totally rendered useless by weaker Raiton, then other Elemental Jutsu they outclass in AP (Massively).

For example Omoi’s Raiton flow stops CO which massive outclass even Raikiri in AP.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> MHA anyone will tell you a claim that was directly proven false has no merit in this discussion.
> —-
> He gets tons of defense hype in the DB.


Less than A3 does and he gets none  in manga


Turrin said:


> —-
> Okay and all that means is A3’s Body is more durable then Kakuzu’s without their Jutsu factored in or that Raiton acted as more of a hard counter to Domu then wind did RNY, as we have seen Elemental interactions differ. Deidara’s bombs for example being totally rendered useless by weaker Raiton, then other Elemental Jutsu they outclass in AP (Massively).
> 
> For example Omoi’s Raiton flow stops CO which massive outclass even Raikiri in AP.


See above
Now stop ducking and answer who is more durable A3 with RCM or Kakuzu with domu


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## Ludi (Nov 20, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, I don't.


Yea you do. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> It could be, but Occam's razor implies it's talking about BoS Guy at the very least (too).



No, it implies it talks about some early Shippuden Guy. You have proof it's before any of the Shippuden events? 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, I've already shown evidence A3 > Base Guy. Matter of fact, I shouldn't have had to.
> 
> Lumping in a metaphorical comparison to steel with a literal comparison to adamantine doesn't make sense and is already flawed.



Where did you show base A3 > base Guy?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Less than A3 does and he gets none  in manga
> 
> See above
> Now stop ducking and answer who is more durable A3 with RCM or Kakuzu with domu


Having more false hype doesn’t mean anything.
—-
I’ve already answered the question. It’s A) irrelevant as the comparison is between Domu Kakuzu and Base A3 via DB, and B) We can’t answer that due to the way elemental interactions work in Naruto.

Elemental interactions are implied to only take place when relatively equal strength nature alteration Jutsu are clashed:

Kishimoto defines the strength of nature alteration jutsu via the principal of counter balancing, in which the strength of the Jutsu comes down to chakra quantity (not it’s effects) put into it:

Considering the example Kishi gave here is Kakuzu’s False Darkness blasts each canceling out with Raikiri; it’s likely Domu is also using Raikiri relative amounts of chakra, which is why when the two clashed the Elemental Wheel came into play so strong and Kakuzu’s Domu was completely rendered useless.

In contrast with A3’s RNY and FRS, we don’t know if the same amount of chakra was put into those two techniques. A4 puts Bijuu quantities into his RNY at times and A3 has debatably even better Chakra Quantities (and can spam more as an Edo), so it’s very possible A3 was putting more chakra into his RNY then a Naruto clone was putting into his FRS, in which case the elemental relationships may not have factored in at all or nearly as strongly. Regardless of which Jutsu offers greater defense amp Domu or RNY.

Similarly to how Deidara’s CO offers far greater AP then Raikiri but must cost far less chakra as it was cast when Deidara was nearly out of chakra and was exploited by a far less chakra demanding Lightening release then Raikiri (Omoi’s Raiton Flow).
—-
And in the case of comparing Nukite to Raikiri, this also doesn’t work as Nukite one-tapped Raikage anyway (it’s not like he tanked it) and RNY doesn’t have the Elemental Advantage of Raikiri over Domu.
—
So all we know is RNY A3 scales above Base A3 (Steel level) and so does Kakuzu with Domu (assuming that’s what the Raw says), meaning both are above Base A3, but we don’t know which is superior.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Informative 1


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Yea you do.
> 
> 
> No, it implies it talks about some early Shippuden Guy. You have proof it's before any of the Shippuden events?
> ...


Also he keeps saying that you can’t compare the fact that Enma is literally Adamantine to metaphorical comparison of A3 to Steel, but if Enma is literally Adamantine which means indestructible in this context, then he needs to concede the debate on that basis alone 

That’s why I’m approaching it as if Adamantine is also a figurative comparison, to be more reasonable allowing for the debate to actually occur in the first place

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 20, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Yea you do



Nah.



Ludi said:


> No, it implies it talks about some early Shippuden Guy. You have proof it's before any of the Shippuden events?



The scan is clearly referring to BoS Guy.



Edit: Never mind, the scan doesn't really note if this is BoS Guy or any another.

That said, Occam's razor would imply this Guy is still subject to the comparison, as he's the only Guy we ever see in action until the Island Turtle Arc or so, IIRC.



Ludi said:


> Where did you show base A3 > base Guy?



Technically, I showed A3 > Base Guy, which should be good enough; RCM A3, the one that tanked FRS, has a "steeled body" as per DB4. I also noted Guy spat blood when 30% Kisame punched him.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 20, 2022)

Also, adamantine isn't indestructible, and it's worth noting that @Turrin not only failed to prove exactly what adamantine is supposed to be according to Kishimoto, but also compared adamantine to "diamond"...which is *not* indestructible.


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, adamantine isn't indestructible, and it's worth noting that @Turrin not only failed to prove exactly what adamantine is supposed to be according to Kishimoto, but also compared adamantine to "diamond"...which is not indestructible.



Official Viz Translation


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 20, 2022)

So is it "adamantine" or "indestructible"? The former is a mythical substance of unknown properties. The latter is just a flat out hyperbole and really doesn't deserve any recognition. DB2 also compared adamantine to diamond so clearly they can't both be right...

*Sword of Kusanagi: Longsword of the Sky* (Kusanagi no Tsurugi: Kuu no Tachi)​
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, Close to mid range
User(s): Orochimaru
*Kusanagi jumps into the air and hacks away of its own accord in a deadly sword dance!!*

The Sword of Kusanagi has been summoned by Orochimaru from inside himself. He controls it as he pleases with this jutsu specific to him. It boasts a sharpness sufficient to *compel a cry of hurt out of Enma*, who possesses a *diamond-hard body*…!! 

Edit: And again.

*Transformation: Adamantine Staff *(Henge: Kongounyoi)​
Ninjutsu, Supplementary
User(s): Monkey King Enma
*Under a Staff form he assumes at will, Enma becomes Adamantine and bares his fangs!!*

The Third Hokage’s comrade in arms, the Monkey King Enma’s Transformation Technique. Characterized by the *hardness of diamond* and its at-will extensibility, Adamantine Staff is the Third’s weapon of choice, so to speak and with it in hand he’s made it through a world of war for an extended period of time.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 20, 2022)

PS: the fact Turrin is getting away with trying to call Enma "indestructible" is laughable, especially when manga and Databooks alike repeatedly mention it has limits or compare it to a substance that does.


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So is it "adamantine" or "indestructible"? The former is a mythical substance of unknown properties. The latter is just a flat out hyperbole and really doesn't deserve any recognition. DB2 also compared adamantine to diamond so clearly they can't both be right...
> 
> *Sword of Kusanagi: Longsword of the Sky* (Kusanagi no Tsurugi: Kuu no Tachi)​
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, Close to mid range
> ...


I’ve explained this to you before.

Enma’s staff is called Kongou, which in this means indescribable or Adamantine, but in Japanese context Adamantine is also considered indestructible, which is why Viz translated it that way:

The reason Diamond comes up is it’s the easiest way to explain the concepts of Indestructible as Diamonds are often thought to be that way especially in Ancient times or at leas the hardest material comparable to that.
—-
I’ve already told you, you can claim it’s hyperbolas that it’s indestructible if you want but it’s on you to prove that 

And also prove that Kishi means it literally and not figuratively, when calling it Kongou. For me it doesn’t matter ether way for my position in this debate, as if both are figurative then Kishi is still using a higher order metaphor to describe Enma then A3, which is all that matters. 

Though personally I do treat these comparisons as figurative as I think that’s the more reasonable stance, which is why I’m actually engaging in this discussion and not simply grand standing the statement calling it indestructible


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 20, 2022)

However you treat these comparisons, Enma has been compared to diamond, which is far from unbreakable (even if it's crazy durable by real world standards) and which is even _easier_ to cut than steel. 

I don't need to prove a hyperbole is a hyperbole, Turrin. Not when the substance in question is also compared to something that isn't indestructible (diamond) and the Databooks and manga both make a point of noting it can get hurt.


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> However you treat these comparisons, Enma has been compared to diamond, which is far from unbreakable (even if it's crazy durable by real world standards) and which is even _easier_ to cut than steel.
> 
> I don't need to prove a hyperbole is a hyperbole, Turrin. Not when the substance in question is also compared to something that isn't indestructible (diamond) and the Databooks and manga both make a point of noting it can get hurt.


Yeah this is obvious circular reasoning with you Presupposing a premise and then using that as proof 

I already explained the context in which it’s compared to Diamond, still lends itself to it being indestructible hype wise.

And Something that indestructible can still take damage as long as it can’t be full destroyed.
—
However once again I don’t treat Enma as literally Adamantine/Indestructible, my belief is that it’s a figurative comparison. However if the author is comparing Enma to Adamantine and A3 to Steel, it’s clear which he views as more durable. That’s the underlining premise I’ve posited this whole time, not the literal argument.

—-
Anyway you agreed to have Ludi judge and he has judge in my favor at every turn. It’s time to concede Aegon

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doesn’t matter if it’s BoS Gai or not. BoS Gai used Gates, so he has Zenkai boost above start of Kisame fight Gai so your argument still doesn’t apply. Or you can concede you Lee/Gai argument

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2022)

@Turrin We have yet to get Ludi's final judgment, let alone that of the other two judges  

And hopefully you won't need to concede, as they'll do you the honor of announcing you loser


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Turrin We have yet to get Ludi's final judgment, let alone that of the other two judges
> 
> And hopefully you won't need to concede, as they'll do you the honor of announcing you loser


He gave judgement on all the points lol. You have then been arguing with him on them and still he disagrees.

We also didn’t say all of them need to judge just one. The denial is off the charts here

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

The point where we ignore feats to scream enma is more durable than the guy claimed to hve an ultimate defence 
No such claim is made on enma , kusanagi can’t even harm kn4. So unless some genius can riddle me how kn4 is supposed to be more durable than A3 not sure how this has lasted 8 pages 
None of any of this even has to do with Itachi as one would have to prove enma can breach susanoo. Would have to prove Amaterasu , tskuyomi , totsuka can all be avoided


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> The point where we ignore feats to scream enma is more durable than the guy claimed to hve an ultimate defence
> No such claim is made on enma , kusanagi can’t even harm kn4. So unless some genius can riddle me how kn4 is supposed to be more durable than A3 not sure how this has lasted 8 pages
> None of any of this even has to do with Itachi as one would have to prove enma can breach susanoo. Would have to prove Amaterasu , tskuyomi , totsuka can all be avoided


The thread has last this long, because no one on the opposing side can make an effective argument.
—-
Your screaming that A3 has better hype, but Enma was likened to an indestructible metal of the Gods, while A3’s hype of having the Ultimate defense was demonstrably proven to be false.
—-
Your screaming about Ksunagi not visibly harming KN4, but Ksunagi didn’t visibly harm Enma.

Your screaming that KN4 is less durable then Base A3 but provide no evidence 
—-
Your screaming that none of this has to do with Itachi vs Hiruzen, but here you are furthering the debate on these things, showing you clearly think it is relevant


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> The thread has last this long, because no one on the opposing side can make an effective argument.
> —-
> Your screaming that A3 has better hype, but Enma was likened to an indestructible metal of the Gods, while A3’s hype of having the Ultimate defense was demonstrably proven to be false.
> —-
> ...


And temari was said to destroy the universe
If you going to use hyperbole
When his only clash was with kusanagi that can’t breach a random leakage of Kyuubi chakra
I am going to have to ask you to face the wall here

very sad when something indestructible only feat is failing to break something that can’t manage to harm a cloak kishi never even bothers to hype . But sure kn4 >>>>>A3 in durability as the manga shows

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Nov 21, 2022)

tbh, regardless of this whole Enma Vs Totsuka thing.
the fact that itachi's supporters are not trying to take any different angel to this, pretty much proves
that they already know that Hiruzen had him beaten in every other aspect, and this Totsuka is itachi's only hope...

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

So dear Reeh crew is kn4 indestructible seeing we have a direct comparison between enma and kn4 
Go on please claim with your chest kn4 is indestructible


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## Trojan (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> between enma and kn4


nice headcanon,


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Trojan said:


> nice headcanon,


Ah because kusanagi never clashed with both and came out unharmed 
Aren’t you cute 
 
I wish I was as silly as you


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## Trojan (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Ah because kusanagi never clashed with both and came out unharmed
> Aren’t you cute
> 
> I wish I was as silly as you


would you look at that, you don't know what "direct" means.  I am shocked...


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Trojan said:


> would you look at that, you don't know what "direct" means.  I am shocked...


Awww  
Here is another   
You gonna do another brilliant thread that gets locked soon? I miss them

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Trojan (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Awww
> Here is another
> You gonna do another brilliant thread that gets locked soon? I miss them


concession accepted


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> He gave judgement on all the points lol. You have then been arguing with him on them and still he disagrees.
> 
> We also didn’t say all of them need to judge just one. The denial is off the charts here



He didn't say who won. He certainly didn't say _you_ won. Also, you don't speak for me - I absolutely wanted more than one judge.


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He didn't say who won. He certainly didn't say _you_ won. Also, you don't speak for me - I absolutely wanted more than one judge.


He wasn’t asked to say who won the overall debate, just who won each point he was asked about. Which he clearly said I won those points. So like I said time to concede those points


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> And temari was said to destroy the universe
> If you going to use hyperbole
> When his only clash was with kusanagi that can’t breach a random leakage of Kyuubi chakra
> I am going to have to ask you to face the wall here
> ...


I’ve already covered why using one  (or a handful) Hyperbola to discount an unrelated statement is a logical fallacy. Again this is why the conversation continues because most arguments formulate by the opposition is a logical fallacy or based on a lack of understanding of how burden of proof works 
—-
V2 Kurama Cloak with no Anti-Feats is a Random leakage of Kurama

 Also no matter how many times you scram about the fact that Ksunagi didn’t pierce KN4, and wasn’t shattered when smashing into Enma, won’t make ether of those points relevant.

Damaging KN4 has to do with AP not durability.‍♂

Ksunagi not shattering has to do with its durability not Enmas
—-
Kishi never bothered to hype KN4


Give proof that Base A3 more durable then KN4, instead of just arguing from the stand point of incredulity


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I’ve already covered why using one  (or a handful) Hyperbola to discount an unrelated statement is a logical fallacy. Again this is why the conversation continues because most arguments formulate by the opposition is a logical fallacy or based on a lack of understanding of how burden of proof works
> —-
> V2 Kurama Cloak with no Anti-Feats is a Random leakage of Kurama
> 
> ...


Provide a single hype of kn4 durability and I concede


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> He wasn’t asked to say who won the overall debate, just who won each point he was asked about. Which he *clearly said I won those points*. So like I said time to concede those points



Quote him. 

And even if he did, I will not concede until at least either @ThirdRidoku or @t0xeus says you won.


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

If something indestructible by hype fails to destroy something with ZERO hype 
Then quite clearly the hype is a hyperbole 
That’s common sense 
Enma can’t be indestructible because when something indestructible collides with a material less durable that material should break 
Now once AGAIN reeeh crew what hype or feats put kn4 as indestructible ? 
even BM and BSM naruto aren’t referred to in that manner 
Please dear reeeh try and claim kn4 is more durable than BSm naruto so I can laugh


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Provide a single hype of kn4 durability and I concede


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> If something indestructible by hype fails to destroy something with ZERO hype
> Then quite clearly the hype is a hyperbole
> That’s common sense
> Enma can’t be indestructible because when something indestructible collides with a material less durable that material should break
> ...


MHA why do you think something’s durability dictates it’s AP. I can smash a Diamond against a glass and not destroy it if not enough force is applied.  Like the reasoning here is


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

None of that is direct durability hype 
I see you didn’t go to school 
want me to show you what durability hype looks like in raikage ? Or domu or even low level kimi ?
Does kn4 have something of that Ilk on panel or in DB 
because highly dense chakra says nothing of how durable it is


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Quote him.
> 
> And even if he did, I will not concede until at least either @ThirdRidoku or @t0xeus says you won.


Someone please just tell him he’s wrong for the third time @Ludi @ThirdRidoku @t0xeus 
—-
I’m going to say you’ve lost these points since Ludi said so, and we never said we needed 2 judges, your just making that up to avoid the L. Nor did any other judge agree to give judgment yet. But I welcome anyone else to chip in if they think Ludi is wrong


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> None of that is direct durability hype
> I see you didn’t go to school
> want me to show you what durability hype looks like in raikage ? Or domu or even low level kimi ?
> Does kn4 have something of that Ilk on panel or in DB
> because highly dense chakra says nothing of how durable it is


My legendary ksunagi sword couldn’t even scratch him.

MHA this isn’t even durability hype


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> MHA why do you think something’s durability dictates it’s AP. I can smash a Diamond against a glass and not destroy it if not enough force is applied.  Like the reasoning here is


If something more durable than an object hits said object the weaker object will break that’s common sense 
Smash a diamond wrecking ball into a steel wall and see what happens 
If the weaker object hits the stronger with force the weaker object will also break in all cases the only thing that results in no breaking is both materials being equally as hard or the material that got hit being even more durable 
Which means kn4= or > kusanagi which = or > enma 
Now once again MR duck , is kn4 therefore indestructible? If so why is BSM no referred to as such seeint BSM should be hilariously more durable by an impossible amount


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> My legendary ksunagi sword couldn’t even scratch him.
> 
> MHA this isn’t even durability hype


It isn’t 
Feel free to call up judges 
That isn’t hyping kn4 durability that’s showing kusanagi hype is worthless 
your DB scan was hilarious as it mentions nothing of durability 
But since you like judges feel free to debate this 
The title should be Kn4 is indestructible or something of that Ilk 
I prefer polls as we have all read the same bloody manga 
Not a soul here will vote for kn4 being indestructible bar yourself 
And kn4 would have to be to have been unharmed by kusanagi if kusanagi is indestructible


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> If something more durable than an object hits said object the weaker object will break that’s common sense
> Smash a diamond wrecking ball into a steel wall and see what happens
> If the weaker object hits the stronger with force the weaker object will also break in all cases the only thing that results in no breaking is both materials being equally as hard or the material that got hit being even more durable
> Which means kn4= or > kusanagi which = or > enma
> Now once again MR duck , is kn4 therefore indestructible? If so why is BSM no referred to as such seeint BSM should be hilariously more durable by an impossible amount


This so demonstrably false MHA.

Literally take a piece of paper and hit it against the nearest wood object and it probably isn’t going to break, because the force isn’t great enough due to wind resistance and other factors.

Like please understand basic science and the world around you


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> It isn’t
> Feel free to call up judges
> That isn’t hyping kn4 durability that’s showing kusanagi hype is worthless
> your DB scan was hilarious as it mentions nothing of durability
> ...


You feel free to call the judges. I will waste no one’s time one this 

I never said KN4 is indestructible, way to shift the goal post to something absurd to try and save face


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> This so demonstrably false MHA.
> 
> Literally take a piece of paper and hit it against the nearest wood object and it probably isn’t going to break, because the force isn’t great enough due to wind resistance and other factors.
> 
> Like please understand basic science and the world around you


Paper doesn’t break 
Try harder


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> You feel free to call the judges. I will waste no one’s time one this
> 
> I never said KN4 is indestructible, way to shift the goal post to something absurd to try and save face


So if it isn’t why didn’t it get destroyed by the indestructible object that hit it ?


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Paper doesn’t break
> Try harder


Your willfully missing the point.

Take a stick and lightly hit it against steel. It’s not likely to break because the necessary degree of force isn’t applied.

Objects don’t just shatter when they come into contact with more durable objects. Each object has a degree of force needed to break/tear/rip

This is basic observable reality.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> So if it isn’t why didn’t it get destroyed by the indestructible object that hit it ?


Because your premise is probably one of the most laughably illogical claims I’ve ever seen on NBD


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Your willfully missing the point.
> 
> Take a stick and lightly hit it against steel. It’s not likely to break because the necessary degree of force isn’t applied.
> 
> ...


Paper still doesn’t break
Perhaps provide an example assuming you went to school
If an object isn’t relative it won’t be flung 100’s of meters by a more durable object and not crack or shatter 
Seeing nothing happened kn4 must be as durable though I’ll ask the simple question you will duck

IS KN4 as durable as kusanagi or not ? If not explain why no damage was done .


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Because your premise is probably one of the most laughably illogical claims I’ve ever seen on NBD


Coming from the guy who suggests paper breaks 
 imagine trying  to make a point about physics then using this foolish example

don’t worry next I’ll make an example about running and refer to fish


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Paper still doesn’t break
> Perhaps provide an example assuming you went to school
> If an object isn’t relative it won’t be flung 100’s of meters by a more durable object and not crack or shatter
> Seeing nothing happened kn4 must be as durable though I’ll ask the simple question you will duck
> ...


Yea it would if not enough force was applied. Please understand basic concepts


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Yea it would if not enough force was applied. Please understand basic concepts


So orochimaru chose to not apply enough force ?
Interesting 
No part of kishi manga implies kn4 would have been run through though

worst part of this debate is kishi already debunked your rubbish when he had sasuke say his kusanagi > orochimaru’s 
And we know how laughable sasuke sword is


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Someone please just tell him he’s wrong for the third time @Ludi @ThirdRidoku @t0xeus



Let the judges determine that.



Turrin said:


> —-
> I’m going to say you’ve lost these points since Ludi said so



Where is the quote?



Turrin said:


> and we never said we needed 2 judges



I was under the impression we would be calling on more than one judge. 

If you only wanted one judge, you should've told me so. 



Turrin said:


> your just making that up to avoid the L



Can't avoid what doesn't exist  



Turrin said:


> Nor did any other judge agree to give judgment yet. But I welcome anyone else to chip in if they think Ludi is wrong



I want @Ludi to say it, loud and clear. And I refuse to accept defeat until one other judge rules in your favor too.


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## Illusory (Nov 21, 2022)

Orochimaru was beaten so badly by 12-year-old 3T Itachi that he literally preferred attacking Hiruzen and all of Konoha instead (while also being surprised that Hiruzen declined as much as he did from his prime).

He pretty much says as much himself afterward. Something to the effect of “this all wouldn’t have been necessary if I could get Itachi, but he is stronger than me.” And the last time Orochimaru saw Hiruzen, Hiruzen was basically “prime”.

On the other hand, Edo Hiruzen recalls to Sasuke that his younger self had “no choice but to put everything into (12-year-old) Itachi’s hands”. So basically admitting that he was powerless to help the situation relative to Itachi there.

So a 6-year-younger-than-p1 Hiruzen is cucked by Kid Itachi no matter who you ask, even Hiruzen himself. And personally, I doubt “prime” Hiruzen fairs much better. Orochimaru nor Obito seemed particularly concerned with a younger Hiruzen.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 21, 2022)

Illusory said:


> Orochimaru was beaten so badly by 12-year-old 3T Itachi that he literally preferred attacking Hiruzen and all of Konoha instead (while also being surprised that Hiruzen declined as much as he did from his prime).
> 
> He pretty much says as much himself afterward. Something to the effect of “this all wouldn’t have been necessary if I could get Itachi, but he is stronger than me.” And the last time Orochimaru saw Hiruzen, Hiruzen was pretty young.
> 
> ...


But but enma is indestructible don’t you remember ? It failed to break something evidently weaker than sasuke sword with raiton flow
You know the sword that bounced off A4 neck as if it were a fly


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## Ludi (Nov 21, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I want @Ludi to say it, loud and clear. And I refuse to accept defeat until one other judge rules in your favor too.


Which part? I haven't read the latest XX replies.

In general, to me anyway, on the points I was summoned for before:

forest >=< mountain in size, none of these is strictly bigger by definition

Steel can have different durability depending on which type of steel but all are < adamantine in durability, I believe.

Grip strength =/= durability.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Which part?



The overall debate, my man.



Ludi said:


> I haven't read the latest XX replies



No worries.



Ludi said:


> In general, to me anyway, on the points I was summoned for before





Ludi said:


> forest >=< mountain in size, none of these is strictly bigger by definition



Agree to disagree, but I respect your judgment. 



Ludi said:


> Steel can have different durability depending on which type of steel but all are < adamantine in durability, I believe



Adamantine doesn't exist in real life and Narutoverse adamantine is likened to diamond, which is stronger than steel against cutting force but not blunt force.

Furthermore, Turrin can't even get it straight whether he wants to say Enma is as hard as diamond or "indestructible".

The former already comes with implied limits and the latter is a hyperbole already discredited by Enma's own comments about the Kusanagi. He also disregards that Enma is _literally_ made of something special (adamantine) whereas A3's "steeled body" is just metaphorical.



Ludi said:


> Grip strength =/= durability.



The grip strength argument made no sense to even begin with. The one thing we can glean from A4's RCM deflecting Sasuke's katana more forcefully than Enma did Oro's Kusanagi means RCM pushed back harder on the katana than Enma did on Oro's Kusanagi. It makes absolutely no sense as Oro has done nothing to prove he's physically more powerful than Sasuke either, at least not FKS Sasuke.


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## SSMG (Nov 21, 2022)

Hiruzen should win. 

He has shown he can fight blind and can use shadow clones so there goes Itachi genjutsu. 

And he was shown in the war to be able to both attack and move faster than Tobirama. 

So Old man blitzes.


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Which part? I haven't read the latest XX replies.
> 
> In general, to me anyway, on the points I was summoned for before:
> 
> ...


So @Aegon Targaryen is wrong on all points. Thank you

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> So @Aegon Targaryen is wrong on all points. Thank you


Where does Ludi say that 
@Ludi please say it with your chest 
Is @Aegon Targaryen wrong on all points yes or no 
Simple question


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## Ludi (Nov 22, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Where does Ludi say that
> @Ludi please say it with your chest
> Is @Aegon Targaryen wrong on all points yes or no
> Simple question



The points I was summoned for, I believe, he at least isn't right to me. I haven't read the rest. If it is an official debate I'd prefer hiding based on agreed on settings. Anyways, seeing he relies on these specific points to be more precisely some exact result, more than Turrin, it would be up to him to support evidence (the one where he relies on mountain>forest is wrong).

So besides that point it's for example about supplementing evidence that both "steel" references are the same steel, as turrin only relies on Adamantine > all types of steel. And then afterwards to which specific versions of which characters this apply (when in the timeline and using which modes? (Gates/rcm) and why then it would be a hyperbole.

The one about grip strength I'm still not sure what's exactly argued (visually), but grip =/= durability, which was what I had tk judge in the quote, I believe.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 22, 2022)

Destroying mountains is portrayed as something only Bijuus and PS and those stronger (barring a few exceptions) do, as a level of power that far transcends that of even the elite of the shinobi class.

Destroying forests is something _P1 Temari_ and non-Bijuudama Shukaku could do; Gamabunta was crushing part of it by just _running_. I think it's being extremely nitpicky to argue mountains aren't > forests. 

It's also hypocritical to argue "mountains aren't > forests" but then argue adamantine > steel no matter what when such is _never_ explicitly stated by Kishimoto. In addition, diamond, the substance adamantine is likened most closely to by Kishi, does *worse* than steel at certain things. 

The "grip strength" argument is just weird, I never even argued about it in the first place. My point was always about Sasuke's force versus A4's durability.


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

Ludi said:


> The points I was summoned for, I believe, he at least isn't right to me. I haven't read the rest. If it is an official debate I'd prefer hiding based on agreed on settings. Anyways, seeing he relies on these specific points to be more precisely some exact result, more than Turrin, it would be up to him to support evidence (the one where he relies on mountain>forest is wrong).
> 
> So besides that point it's for example about supplementing evidence that both "steel" references are the same steel, as turrin only relies on Adamantine > all types of steel. And then afterwards to which specific versions of which characters this apply (when in the timeline and using which modes? (Gates/rcm) and why then it would be a hyperbole.
> 
> The one about grip strength I'm still not sure what's exactly argued (visually), but grip =/= durability, which was what I had tk judge in the quote, I believe.


Why so much speech for a yes or no question mate 
this isn’t some court of Law we discussing naruto here


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 22, 2022)

I'll actually go even further on how it's stupid to take Databook (or even manga) statements overly literally, especially when it's clear they're figurative or metaphorical.

Here are random snippets from A3's DB4 statement I have procured to expose the fallacious reasoning at hand here. DB4 statements are all in bold, by the way.

*A war-hardened hero with ultimate power – even an army of thousands couldn’t restrain him! *

Huh? They literally _killed_ him, lmfao. Even if it was a mutual kill, that still counts as "restraining" in my book. The only way it wouldn't is if they had an actual reason to keep the guy alive, which is not stated.

*His body, hard and tough as steel, was the shield, that protected the inhabitants of the village. His iron grip, with which he could even sever the tails of a Tailed Beast, was the spear, with which he pierced through intruders.*

This statement *compares A3's durability to steel*, even though P1 Naruto literally destroys a water tank with Rasengan and A3 tanks not a Rasengan, not even a Fuuton: Rasengan, but a Kurama-made Fuuton: _Rasenshuriken_ with little damage.

The Databook entry also - if we pretend we're Turrin and take what it says as literally as possible - implies A3's durability > A3's power with Nukite, as it likens A3's shield to *steel* and A3's spear (the Nukite) to *iron*, when *steel > iron*.

Well, as we all know...*the spear was stronger than the shield*. Ergo, _*iron*_* beat *_*steel*_ (as per Kishimoto). Or, *maybe Kishimoto doesn't actually care about these stupid terms *and is just trying to sound cool?

Mind you, Kishimoto likens Nukite to iron and A3's body to steel in the SAME Databook entry and probably paragraph.

Taking a random statement as fact to the exclusion of all logic is idiocy at its finest. You try to understand what that statement is and then verify it against the preponderance of all available evidence.

Ergo, @Turrin is absolutely wrong when he assumes something is weaker or stronger than something else just because of the metaphors involved. Metaphors are not enough, performance is what ultimately matters.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 22, 2022)

Itachi has been controlled by Hiruzen from an early age, to the point that he was willing to kill his family to help Hiruzen retain power. The 3rd just tells Itachi that he needs to commit suicide to protect Konoha or something.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Ludi (Nov 22, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Why so much speech for a yes or no question mate
> this isn’t some court of Law we discussing naruto here


I think adding some reasoning helps when judging, though I'm not looking for some discussion about this topic by itself.


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## Turrin (Nov 22, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'll actually go even further on how it's stupid to take Databook (or even manga) statements overly literally, especially when it's clear they're figurative or metaphorical.
> 
> Here are random snippets from A3's DB4 statement I have procured to expose the fallacious reasoning at hand here. DB4 statements are all in bold, by the way.
> 
> ...


Aegon you’re still not understanding why you keep loosing this points to judgment.

I’ll try to explain it to you, one more time.

What you’re doing is reading the DB and making an assumption about a DB statement you believe is logical - “If They killed Raikage, then they obviously restrained him”.

Then because you think this assumption is logical, you use it to say that statement is wrong/hyperbola/etc….

But what you’re not taking into account is whether you view this assumption as logical, it’s still just an assumption of what Kishi’s meaning that can’t be proven.

Another way to interpret restrained is that Kishi is talking about capturing the Raikage alive, which would not make the DB wrong.

If there is another interpretation that doesn’t require the source material to be wrong, we usually should take that one unless there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In most cases though you can’t present any evidence to the contrary at all, other then what you personally think is logical, which is not a valid argument.
—-
On-top of this the entire structure of your argument continues to be built on generalization fallacies, where your continue to try to argue to discard all statements from a Canon source due to a minority of examples that are possibly incorrect. You can’t construct an argument this way, you have to attack the example directly; unless you can show a majority of the statements in the DB (like over 50%) are incorrect (which pro-tip you can’t).

On-top of this, you are committing a huge double standard to anyone judging because you use DB/Manga statements to construct your own arguments all the time. So it’s extremely evident that you are cherry picking selectively based on the debate when and where you want to take statements seriously.
—-
Anyway Ludi has told you your wrong like 3 separate times now, pretty clear your not going to accept judgment so I’m not going to waste my time anymore on this topic unless you change your approach and accept where you continue to go wrong. I also suggest @Ludi also forget about it at this point.

Though @Ludi can maybe confirm or deny what I’m saying about the flaws in your argumentation before he drops it too


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## Turrin (Nov 22, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Where does Ludi say that
> @Ludi please say it with your chest
> Is @Aegon Targaryen wrong on all points yes or no
> Simple question


MHA he says it 3 times. He simply adds reasoning as to why, since he’s trying to be polite and thoughtful to both debaters rather than just coming in here and screaming that someone is wrong.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 22, 2022)

Agreed with @Turrin whats the point in engaging with a discussion when you are just going to backtrack constantly and ignore any points being made is completely pointless @MHA massive fan 

You first asked for a KN4 durability feat and then you would concede - which he provided and then start backtracking and trying to scale durability to AP? and then "
Paper doesn’t break
Try harder" 

Just my 2 cents

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Agreed with @Turrin whats the point in engaging with a discussion when you are just going to backtrack constantly and ignore any points being made is completely pointless @MHA massive fan
> 
> You first asked for a KN4 durability feat and then you would concede - which he provided and then start backtracking and trying to scale durability to AP? and then "
> Paper doesn’t break
> ...


Ah a dupe 
kn4 isnt indestructible ergo enma isn’t


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I think adding some reasoning helps when judging, though I'm not looking for some discussion about this topic by itself.


But I asked a simple question wasn’t even discussing it 
Just asked yes or No 
So all the bla bla it’s like people trying to earn smart points here 
We discussing naruto 
If you agree with @Aegon Targaryen its a yes 
If you don’t it’s a No 
Simple question

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 22, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Ah a dupe
> kn4 isnt indestructible ergo enma isn’t


How original

ENMA didnt hit KN4 

Indestructible doesnt mean anything it hits will blow it up or penetrate something, especially when the properties of it are different.


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> How original
> 
> ENMA didnt hit KN4
> 
> Indestructible doesnt mean anything it hits will blow it up or penetrate something, especially when the properties of it are different.


Kusanagi did

simple question to prove indestructible is hyperbole if TSB hits it what happens 
Please answer directly without much bla bla


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 22, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Kusanagi did


Kusanagi did what?


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Kusanagi did what?


Hit both 
And nothing happened to either 
Kusanagi didn’t chip against either so neither are more durable than kusanagi 
Ergo their durability is relative 
We know sasuke sword > kusanagi as this is clearly stated in manga 
Seeing sasuke sword isn’t indestructible something less durable can’t be


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 22, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Hit both
> And nothing happened to either


So therefore your logic is because it didnt break, its therefore not indestructible?


MHA massive fan said:


> Kusanagi didn’t chip against either so neither are more durable than kusanagi


So what?


MHA massive fan said:


> Ergo their durability is relative


Sure


MHA massive fan said:


> We know sasuke sword > kusanagi as this is clearly stated in manga
> Seeing sasuke sword isn’t indestructible something less durable can’t be


Why is Sasuke's sword not indestructible?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> So therefore your logic is because it didnt break, its therefore not indestructible?
> 
> So what?
> 
> ...


 
Because it bounced off A4 as if it were a fly 
Is A4 indestructible ? 
If TSB hit the sword would the sword remain intact?
If yes to both then please share what you are smoking I need some

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 22, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Because it bounced off A4 as if it were a fly


Yet didnt break - so your point of it not being indestructible is completely moot


MHA massive fan said:


> Is A4 indestructible ?


No - why tf are you trying to scale durability to AP when its the OTHER WAY AROUND


MHA massive fan said:


> If TSB hit the sword would the sword remain intact?


TSB is a hax based weapon

Kakashi could kamui half of it off too

It cant be broken by conventional attacks


MHA massive fan said:


> If yes to both then please share what you are smoking I need some

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Yet didnt break - so your point of it not being indestructible is completely moot
> 
> No - why tf are you trying to scale durability to AP when its the OTHER WAY AROUND
> 
> ...


So then if you can mention 2 things that can destroy it it’s not indestructible 
Ergo you have beaten your own argument

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WinNo1929 (Nov 22, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> So then if you can mention 2 things that can destroy it it’s not indestructible
> Ergo you have beaten your own argument


Indestructible - by conventional attacks

Read my words


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Indestructible - by conventional attacks
> 
> Read my words


A caveat means it’s not indestructible 
Did the DB entry give a caveat ?
Did the manga ?
Nope 
Thus it isn’t indestructible 
Even TSB isn’t claimed as indestructible


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 22, 2022)

@Turrin No, I will not accept the ruling of any one judge (be it @Ludi or anyone else). It would be fairer to all parties involved to have at least 3 judges, IMO. 

You already played yourself by trying to argue "hurr Databook entries that are metaphorical or figurative can be compared literally", which is not only a positive statement you should have needed to prove but also one I ended up disproving.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2022)

its odd that one judge isn’t enough
Would think I didn’t spend 2 pages saying just that


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## Turrin (Nov 22, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Turrin No, I will not accept the ruling of any one judge (be it @Ludi or anyone else). It would be fairer to all parties involved to have at least 3 judges, IMO.
> 
> You already played yourself by trying to argue "hurr Databook entries that are metaphorical or figurative can be compared literally", which is not only a positive statement you should have needed to prove but also one I ended up disproving.


Aegon you want multiple judges but refuse to setup an official debate where we could get more people to judge. You should be happy you got one that has spent their time to give you their opinion on something unofficial 

On top of this Third basically has said he agrees with me in this thread and on discord too on several point anyway  
—-
The rest is not true.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 22, 2022)

@BillyCarnage


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Aegon you want multiple judges



Yes.



Turrin said:


> but refuse to setup an official debate



For now, yes.



Turrin said:


> where we could get more people to judge



And?



Turrin said:


> You should be happy you got one that has spent their time to give you their opinion on something unofficial



I'm not knocking Ludi at all. Spare me the guilt tripping.



Turrin said:


> On top of this Third basically has said he agrees with me in this thread and on discord too on several point anyway
> —-



Interesting. I will ask him on Discord.



Turrin said:


> The rest is not true.



It is, sadly


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## Turrin (Nov 22, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So then the answer is simply drop the discussion till you can setup a formal debate or accept the judgement of those that show up, and don’t complain about needing a formal panel in an no formal setting


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> So then the answer is simply drop the discussion till you can setup a formal debate or accept the judgement of those that show up



Nah, I'll wait until I hear more. 



Turrin said:


> and don’t complain about needing a formal panel in an no formal setting



Never asked for a "formal panel", just multiple judges. Let's not get ahead of ourselves now.


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## Turrin (Nov 22, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nah, I'll wait until I hear more.
> 
> 
> 
> Never asked for a "formal panel", just multiple judges. Let's not get ahead of ourselves now.


That’s a panel tho Aegon


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