# Jedi Grand Master: Luke Skywalker vs Othinus



## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 15, 2014)

Now that ToAru has a cube being, can they finaly defeat the Jelly King

Scenario 1: Speed equal
Scenario 2: No restrictions

Discuss


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## Qinglong (Feb 15, 2014)

He mentally compels her to put on actual clothing then come back to the match


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## teddy (Feb 15, 2014)

From what i've gathered, her telepathic defenses aren't that good _(at least not enough to matter against sufficiently powerful sith/jedi masters)_. plus she caps out mach 100 so she won't have time to pull out any tricks on the quickdraw


so yeah, that's that


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 15, 2014)

? said:


> From what i've gathered, her telepathic defenses aren't that good _(at least not enough to matter against sufficiently powerful sith/jedi masters)_. plus she caps out mach 100 so she won't have time to pull out any tricks on the quickdraw
> 
> 
> so yeah, that's that



So goes to show superior DC doesn't always cut it, huh?

What's Othinus' durability anyway?


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## Blue (Feb 15, 2014)

He punches her in the face

Her mission completed, she returns to Kamachi's loli punch boner from whence she came


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## lokoxDZz (Feb 15, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> So goes to show superior DC doesn't always cut it, huh?
> 
> What's Othinus' durability anyway?



Multi-Planet or planet+ if i recall.



Luke losee first scenario and telepathic stomps her at scenario 2


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 15, 2014)

lokoxDZz said:


> Multi-Planet or planet+ if i recall.
> 
> 
> 
> Luke losee first scenario and telepathic stomps her at scenario 2


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## Qinglong (Feb 15, 2014)

lokoxDZz said:


> Multi-Planet or planet+ if i recall.
> 
> 
> 
> Luke losee first scenario and telepathic stomps her at scenario 2





			
				TWF said:
			
		

> resistance against time-stops?
> he has a ridiclous TK feat in the Young Jedi Knights novels
> where he freezes everything and everyone in place
> and the narrative even says it was "almost as if time stopped"
> ...



**


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## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

Speed Equal Luke just mindrapes her into creating a filter where shes forced to dress appropriately


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## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

Aaaand 24'd

Damn


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## OS (Feb 15, 2014)

What's with all the othinus threads?


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## Dogescartes (Feb 15, 2014)

Divine retribution of everything that is right with the world


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## teddy (Feb 15, 2014)

OS said:


> What's with all the othinus threads?



Testing her worth like the obd has virtually always done whenever someone receives a significant upgrade


now all she needs are some clothes


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Bitch can't even beat Luke. 

Ajimu most def solos.


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## Red Angel (Feb 15, 2014)

Luke fuckstomps

If he can solo the verse through mindfuck, yeah


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

We using EU / non-canon luke now?



Because movie luke gets completely destroyed here.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 15, 2014)

that feel when greedo brings up the sort of thing you expect thor or nikushimi to use

BLS please edit in that EU is allowed


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

Not my fault that EU is basically glorified fanfiction now. Blame disney.


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## Qinglong (Feb 15, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> that feel when greedo brings up the sort of thing you expect thor or nikushimi to use
> 
> BLS please edit in that EU is allowed



Considering it specifically mentions Jedi Grandmaster Luke he doesn't have to

Also Pablo isn't Leland Chee and his twitter contradict's Chee's so it's still on the fence


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## Lucaniel (Feb 15, 2014)

Qinglong said:


> Considering it specifically mentions Jedi Grandmaster Luke he doesn't have to



oh yeah

good point

suck on that greedo


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

"Canon is only whats on the screen, episodes I-VI, TCW, and whats to come."

Yea, not seeing a distinction between which EU writers works are non-canon and canon here. The stuff on the screen/movies/tv is canon, and the stuff that isn't on the screen is non-canon. It's either canon or it's not. And there really isn't a way to misinterpret that, unless your in severe denial.

But, hey, people have used non-canon parts of fiction in the OBD before, if you want to do it go ahead, I wont stop you.


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## Qinglong (Feb 15, 2014)

Wow you're being bloody salty

People have used GT and The Lost Canvas characters before does that mean it's not a vs match? A specific incarnation of the character was listed, feats for that incarnation are allowed

Leland Chee is in the same group and made no such statement so no Pablo isn't the final authority on canon


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

Qinglong said:


> Wow you're being bloody salty
> 
> People have used GT and The Lost Canvas characters before does that mean it's not a vs match? A specific incarnation of the character was listed, feats for that incarnation are allowed





			
				Me said:
			
		

> But, hey, people have used non-canon parts of fiction in the OBD before, if you want to do it go ahead, I wont stop you.



**


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

Also, using DBGT is probably not the best example you could have used.

Just saiyan.


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## Qinglong (Feb 15, 2014)

Okay? Going to repeat that ad nauseum or ignore the fact Pablo doesn't speak for the entire community and directly contradicts another member of said community with more weight than him?

The point remains the same on you going on and on about what's canon when whatever feats for this incarnation for the character apply to the versus match


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 15, 2014)

That moment when you know however the canon shit ends up, you still won't give a damn because the only characters you actively support are EU exclusive


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

Qinglong said:


> Okay? Going to repeat that ad nauseum or ignore the fact Pablo doesn't speak for the entire community and directly contradicts another member of said community with more weight than him?
> 
> The point remains the same on you going on and on about what's canon when whatever feats for this incarnation for the character apply to the versus match




So, one of the EU writers says that what isn't on screen is not canon. He may not speak for the entire community, but he made his comment pretty clear, as in, it seemed to be referring to the EU as a whole, not just, "hey, the stuff that I made for the EU is now non canon", but rather, "everything off screen is now non-canon".

Your currently on stage one of the 5 stages of grief.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 15, 2014)

tbh 

whenever chee follows up on pablo whoever, it'll decide the canonicity of the EU atm

until then it's up in the air with a side order of probably not canon

but all of that is irrelevant bc bls specificed jedi grand master luke

in summary: greedo pls stop impotently trying to rustle jimmies and post about your barely-clothed prepubescent spirit animal instead


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## Regicide (Feb 15, 2014)

>enter thread
>see an argument about Star Wars EU
Why am I not surprised?


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## Ramius (Feb 15, 2014)

Why making the best part of the franchise non-canon and the worst of it canon? 

Off topic - A certain person lurking but not posting is like one of those situations when rape victims lose their voice


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Ampchu said:


> Fixed something for you.



I don't expect the mute to regain his voice anytime soon.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

TS says Pablo's on the committee


and when was his twitter contradicted ? Chee not saying anything yet himself =/= contradiction, they're on the same canon-deciding team, Pablo mentioned in the twitter that they'll do an announcement closer to episode 7 release date, but he pretty much spilled it earlier while replying to someone


so it looks decided as of now, unless they change their mind later 

but of course anything can be used still


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

As for the thread, with speed equal, it'll depend on who attacks first. EU Luke could win via mindrape and........well almost any attack from othinus could kill Luke. So.....a QuickDraw will decide who wins.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 15, 2014)

but does a crossbow bolt or a FILTER move faster than a thought from precog with galactic range for his telepathy

i think not


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## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

Yeah, changes take effect after Otninus processes the thought and activates the,spell

Luke simply pre-empts the thought by mindfucking her before the spell takes effect

Precog + multitasking and whatnot


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

The filter and several hundred million explosion attacks are instant....
Basically, any ability related to the spear and its reality warping powers, for the most part are instant.

The crossbow is not. It's just a crossbow with magic arrows that can planet bust. And she only used that when gungnir was destroyed


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## Qinglong (Feb 15, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> TS says Pablo's on the committee
> 
> 
> and when was his twitter contradicted ? Chee not saying anything yet himself =/= contradiction, they're on the same canon-deciding team, Pablo mentioned in the twitter that they'll do an announcement closer to episode 7 release date, but he pretty much spilled it earlier while replying to someone
> ...





> Fang: >Fluttershit in charge of knowing jack shit of what he's talking about
> >Leland Chee being the Keeper of the Holocron
> >Hildago just being an editor
> Why is Fluttershit such a dumb dong?
> ...



**


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

Precog is useless if the fight ends right when it starts.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

If both attacks are thought speed, it basically depends on who attacks first, is what I'm saying.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

Fangy in full denial mode


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## Fujita (Feb 15, 2014)

Why is "thought speed" something that's equal by default?


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## Tacocat (Feb 15, 2014)

Othinus said:


> The filter and several hundred million explosion attacks are instant....
> Basically, any ability related to the spear and its reality warping powers, for the most part are instant.
> 
> The crossbow is not. It's just a crossbow with magic arrows that can planet bust. And she only used that when gungnir was destroyed



"Instants" are relative


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 15, 2014)

again, Hidalgo isn't exactly representative of the entire canon-setting committee

you fuckers acting like it's set in stone from one statement and the movie not being out yet is hilarious  

-snip-


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## teddy (Feb 15, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> but does a crossbow bolt or a FILTER move faster than a thought from precog with galactic range for his telepathy
> 
> i think not



Doesn't speed equal only apply to combat/movement speed and not the actual thought processing speed of the competitors anyway?


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## Fujita (Feb 15, 2014)

Wait, fuck

Speed equal

Need my eyes checked or something



? said:


> Doesn't speed equal only apply to combat/movement speed and not the actual thought processing speed of the competitors anyway?



It has, in the past at least

It's pretty nonsensical though


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## Amae (Feb 15, 2014)

? said:


> Doesn't speed equal only apply to combat/movement speed and not the actual thought processing speed of the competitors anyway?


No, but it's a common misconception.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 15, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> then they should go represent themselves and correct him if he's wrong
> 
> but until then



until then you're still jumping the gun 

is the concept of waiting until the movie comes out to settle the canon shit such a difficult one to comprehend


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

how will the movie settle it ? sure, it'll probably be totally different from what's _post-ROTJ_

but everything else ?



this guy may not be CHee, but he's still part of it and I don't see why would he would flat out state it like that if it wasn't what they were going with

so yeah


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## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

not that,it matters

Spell casting in ToAru doesnt activate at the speed of thought.

Especially the Filters. Given the need for Othinus to define,what she,wants to happen first, all Luke has to do is,either lobotomize her or mind trick her into screwing herself over


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

You guys seriously need to decide how speed equal works. I've brought this up in various threads like 3 or 4 times in the past month or two and have gotten a different answer each time. The last being "all speeds are equal". So yea, someone needs to make a meta thread about this.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 15, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> until then you're still jumping the gun
> 
> is the concept of waiting until the movie comes out to settle the canon shit such a difficult one to comprehend



Jumping the gun is a specialty of a bunch of fuckers around here CD

This post in response to , made after this post, makes that much very obvious 

Basically saying they can't reveal jack shit just yet.


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## teddy (Feb 15, 2014)

Why does this discussion even matter? op specified jedi grand master luke for the match. this other shit is just off-topic drivel best reserved for a blog or meta thread


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

TehChron said:


> not that,it matters
> 
> Spell casting in ToAru doesnt activate at the speed of thought.
> 
> Especially the Filters. Given the need for Othinus to define,what she,wants to happen first, all Luke has to do is,either lobotomize her or mind trick her into screwing herself over



Nuking the world seemed pretty instant to me in both nt8 and nt9 so I'm not sure where your getting this. Refer to the very end of nt8


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## Amae (Feb 15, 2014)

Fuck you, you make a meta thread about it.

People not knowing shit doesn't mean there isn't a established way it works, genius. And how could you get 4 different answers when there's not that many in the first place?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

Othinus said:


> You guys seriously need to decide how speed equal works. I've brought this up in various threads like 3 or 4 times in the past month or two and have gotten a different answer each time. The last being "all speeds are equal". So yea, someone needs to make a meta thread about this.


*all *speed is equal

no meta thread needed







ChaosTheory123 said:


> This post in response to , made after this post, makes that much very obvious
> 
> Basically saying they can't reveal jack shit just yet.


and yet he "revealed" it just fine in your third link


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

> we try! Some just don't want to hear it.


it's like this Pablo guy has Force pre-cog of his own


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## Qinglong (Feb 15, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> how will the movie settle it ? sure, it'll probably be totally different from what's _post-ROTJ_
> 
> but everything else ?
> 
> ...





			
				TWF said:
			
		

> >except for the part where Chee was the main head of in charge of determining SW canon and continutiy
> >and Hildago is just an editor
> >who does not have Chee's authority even if he's  on the new committee



**


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

Amae said:


> Fuck you, you make a meta thread about it.
> 
> People not knowing shit doesn't mean there isn't a established way it works, genius. And how could you get 4 different answers when there's not that many in the first place?



.....why so angry......

I got a conflicting answer each time, is what I should have said.


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## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Nuking the world seemed pretty instant to me in both nt8 and nt9 so I'm not sure where your getting this. Refer to the very end of nt8



Coming from a person who simply nuked the,world outside of peoples range,to react, its,only natural

But spells in ToAru have a setup/activation-application process

Even something like Ars Magna did. Izzard didnt have it active 24-7. He had to trigger it, then think of the, result

No reason for Othinus' spell to be,any different


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

Othinus said:


> .....why so angry......
> 
> I got a conflicting answer each time, is what I should have said.


it's been crystal clear (all speed equal) for a long while now


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> it's been crystal clear (all speed equal) for a long while now



It's case by case flutter.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 15, 2014)

no it;s not.

speed equal is exactly what it says on the tin.

this is really not that hard.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 15, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> and yet he "revealed" it just fine in your third link



Not particularly.

Hell, from the , given nothing was forthcoming prior to his post about EU canonicity?

He may have even been referring to prior standing and shit relating to the hierarchy like G, T, C, S, and N canon.

But if you're intent on trying to ruffle a few feathers, do what you will fluttershit


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

Freddie Mercury said:


> It's case by case flutter.


no it isn't

if OP doesn't specify what he means exactly, then speed equal = all speed (including reactions) equal


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

Jesus, ninja'd by a gnome


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 15, 2014)

although, I'm not sure if equal means scaling the faster down to the slower or upscaling the slower to the faster one


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

Tehcron, Some do not. Grimiores for example. Acqua's water attacks and Gabriel vaping mountains, agmese lotus wand, and many others are other examples. Provide a quote saying/showing she needs prep or something if you want to try and claim this. Because all other evidence shows she doesn't require prep, and that her attacks are thought speed.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 15, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> although, I'm not sure if equal means scaling the faster down to the slower or upscaling the slower to the faster one



it doesn't really matter.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> no it;s not.
> 
> speed equal is exactly what it says on the tin.
> 
> this is really not that hard.



So assuming that a person has an attack faster than their movement/reaction speed, what exactly the fuck are you scaling the opponent to?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 15, 2014)

Freddie Mercury said:


> So assuming that a person has an attack faster than their movement/reaction speed, what exactly the fuck are you scaling the opponent to?



speed is equal.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

Jesus, there's a lot of lurkers in this thread. 31 of them actually.......


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> speed is equal.



doesn't answer the question darling.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 15, 2014)

Freddie Mercury said:


> doesn't answer the question darling.



yes it does


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## Fujita (Feb 15, 2014)

Freddie Mercury said:


> So assuming that a person has an attack faster than their movement/reaction speed, what exactly the fuck are you scaling the opponent to?



Likely some proportional downscaling or something 

Or just scale that attack down to their movement/attack speed

I think attacks that don't rely in one way or another on reaction speed for activation are fairly rare

Though that begs the question of what you do when somebody's reactions are far better than their movement speed. Well, then you just take one of the above options, both of which make more sense than simply not scaling it down.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> yes it does



No it doesn't. Attacks that move near instant speed don't scale to shit.


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## Amae (Feb 15, 2014)

Othinus said:


> .....why so angry......
> 
> I got a conflicting answer each time, is what I should have said.


No anger, I just had this inexplicable desire to flavor my post like that. Not to mention you've said the same thing before and I have given you the correct answer.

Freddie, someone's attack speed would fall under "speed is equal", meaning it would be equal to however fast the characters are. Simple as.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 15, 2014)

Freddie Mercury said:


> So assuming that a person has an attack faster than their movement/reaction speed, what exactly the fuck are you scaling the opponent to?



depends on things

something like DBZ matches with speed equal, where the characters are scaled down to their opponent while the ki blasts are still mach 30000+ would seem to be pretty against the spirit of it 

stuff like telepathy though will always have an edge because it's just think and opponent is plain mindfucked, nothing to dodge 

in essence, the nature of TP is always an edge in speed equalized matches


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## Fujita (Feb 15, 2014)

"Instant" attacks like telepathy or weird area-affecting spells are scaled down along with reactions, really

Anything more than that would be weird


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> yes             .



Ok then.

Luke Skywalker vs Hobo with Shotgun at a starting distance of 5 meters. Speed Equal


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## Ramius (Feb 15, 2014)

Person A has mach 500 movement speed and FTL reactions/attack speed
Person B has mach 50 movement speed and mach 100 attack/reaction speed

Both of their reactions/attack speed and movement get scaled to FTL, m-500, 50 or 100. It's so simple.



Freddie Mercury said:


> Ok then.
> 
> Luke Skywalker vs Hobo with Shotgun at a starting distance of 5 meters. Speed Equal



Luke, because his mind crushing techniques don't actually require movement or closing in any sort of distance. However, if normally "mind crushing somebody" would take him like a nanosecond or something, in this case it would take way more time.


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## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Tehcron, Some do not. Grimiores for example. Acqua's water attacks and Gabriel vaping mountains, agmese lotus wand, and many others are other examples. Provide a quote saying/showing she needs prep or something if you want to try and claim this. Because all other evidence shows she doesn't require prep, and that her attacks are thought speed.


Grimoires are sentient magical tomes

Their passive defenses are always,on

Acquas water attacks,actually are more in the same vein as Kanzakis wire manipulation and Birdway. Namely Hydrokinesis parlayed into additional magic spells or motion activated magic.

Gabriel vaped the mountain by swinging a wing. Blunt force.

Lotus,Wand requires a chant and calculation of spacial coordinates before the link is established

Im listing mechanics, Greed. Onus is on you to prove that the Filters are the,exception, not the rule


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Ramius said:


> Luke, because his mind crushing techniques don't actually require movement or closing in any sort of distance. However, if normally "mind crushing somebody" would take him like a nanosecond or something, in this case it would take way more time.



Let's assume the mind crush takes about as long as it takes for the bum to fire a shot.

After all attack speed is equalized, even the amount of distance it can cross within a time range.


See the problem?


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## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

I mean, the mere fact that mana has to be generated and devoted towards,activation of a spell in this fiction more,or,less makes this,discussion a moot point

ToAru magic is a multistep process, the time spent in the,setup is merely shortened by an individuals information processing speed, aka thinking speed

Meaning that in a speed equal scenario, its cripplingly disadvantaged against something as straightforward as jedi mindfuckery


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 15, 2014)

This is like the Rukia Defense Force but stupider and more irrelevant.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 15, 2014)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Let's assume the mind crush takes about as long as it takes for the bum to fire a shot.
> 
> After all attack speed is equalized, even the amount of distance it can cross within a time range.
> 
> ...



you're treating telepathy like a beam though when it isn't displayed like that most of the time 

the nature of it remains the same, as in it happens as fast as the psychic thinks of it


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## Ramius (Feb 15, 2014)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Let's assume the mind crush takes about as long as it takes for the bum to fire a shot.
> 
> After all attack speed is equalized, even the amount of distance it can cross within a time range.
> 
> ...



I don't think that's how it works. Isn't speed equal used to avoid speedblitz? Technically, to make the match more even. That doesn't mean that for a telepath it will take the same time to kill his opponent as it would take to somebody who has nuke or deal some physical blow. If your opponent has a plethora of means to kill you, then the scenario is pointless in the first place.


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## Fujita (Feb 15, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> the nature of it remains the same, as in it happens as fast as the psychic thinks of it



Precisely

All that "speed equal" would change is how fast the psychic thinks of it


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 15, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> you're treating telepathy like a beam though when it isn't displayed like that most of the time
> 
> the nature of it remains the same, as in it happens as fast as the psychic thinks of it



No, no.

Let's work with this CD.

I mean... what, didn't Kreia's "betrayal" telepathic comment reach Atris in seconds? 

Now you just need to have feats of reacting to telepathic attacks for the fun to begin 

But nah, that kind of sounds silly now


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## willyvereb (Feb 15, 2014)

Yeah, seriously.
Let's not bring up this shit about whether the EU is canon or not.
It's waaaaaaay to early to say anything regarding it.

Especially not a wise choice to bring this up in a thread which was made by the obvious intention to also include EU material.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 15, 2014)

Pretty sure speed equal only equates to movement speed/combat speed and not reactions otherwise I've been bullshitted for 4 fucking years.

Unless stated otherwise (and more or less still be retarded otherwise), that'd be the case.


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## teddy (Feb 15, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, no.
> 
> Let's work with this CD.
> 
> ...



Massively ftl+ invisible psychic commands


so legit


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 15, 2014)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Pretty sure speed equal only equates to movement speed/combat speed and not reactions otherwise I've been bullshitted for 4 fucking years.
> 
> Unless stated otherwise (and more or less still be retarded otherwise), that'd be the case.



That seems silly.

Given I've probably been bullshitting for the last 2 if what you're saying is true.

Way to make this shit ambiguous as fuck and a cluster fuck older members


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Grimoires are sentient magical tomes
> 
> Their passive defenses are always,on



I hope you realize this is also a large part of her powerset.



> Acquas water attacks,actually are more in the same vein as Kanzakis wire manipulation and Birdway. Namely Hydrokinesis parlayed into additional magic spells or motion activated magic.



Acqua's water attacks are Magic, as is his ability to skate on water and increase his speed. Yet he never used a chant.



> Gabriel vaped the mountain by swinging a wing. Blunt force.



I'm talking about the energy attack she used to vape a mountain. Not her wings she used to "flatten" a mountain.



> Lotus,Wand requires a chant and calculation of spacial coordinates before the link is established



To activate the wand and open the angel wings up the tip of the staff, yes, it requires a chant. Once active, it does not. You don't see her saying a chant every time she uses a void attack or whatever it's called.



> Im listing mechanics, Greed. Onus is on you to prove that the Filters are the,exception, not the rule



Your listing mechanics that only exist for a small portion of the characters, and claiming that Othinus has to do some prep or some chant or something, when on the contrary she has never been shown to do something like that.

Once again, show me said chant/ritual/prep. Your making a claim here, but your not willing to try and back it up.


But you want some proof:


			
				NT8-epilogue said:
			
		

> ?These small fights are such a pain. I think I?ll just end the world.?
> 
> 
> And exactly as she had announced, everything was immediately destroyed.



And you know what happened in NT9, she did exactly as she had claimed she would. The would/universe was gone.

Not once has she shown the need for any sort of prep when using her filters. So yea, if you want to claim that, prove it.


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## willyvereb (Feb 15, 2014)

As for the nature of telepathy, it's the best to think about it like warp travel.
It traverses the unknown space between various minds.
So it effectively hits in an instant.
On the other hand the effects of telepathy is gradual.
It's like the process of hacking a computer system.
Even if you have instant connection, a few things could take a while.

Still, people are more or less right that a telepathic attack would generally effect the target much faster than a generic melee attack would.
Albeit I guess we could say the same about Othinus' reality warping
So yeah, in a speed equal scenario I think it's more likely for Othinus to erase Luke before the latter can take over her mind.


----------



## teddy (Feb 15, 2014)

So with the nature of telepathy in mind i can see luke forcing a draw for scenario 1, but i'll go ahead and give othinus the edge there due to the extant of her filters


unrestricted on the hand...


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 15, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> That seems silly.
> 
> Given I've probably been bullshitting for the last 2 if what you're saying is true.
> 
> Way to make this shit ambiguous as fuck and a cluster fuck older members



What's silly about preventing blitzing but leaving other options to supplement? Cuz that's the entire point of speed equal. Not like you can blitz a ^ (use bro) from 10km on reactions alone.


----------



## Amae (Feb 15, 2014)

"Combat speed" is a phrase that usually includes reactions along with relatively short range movement speed. Not equalizing reactions gives the faster character a speed advantage, going against the whole idea of speed equal.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

Othinus said:


> I hope you realize this is also a large part of her powerset.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All this talk about prep

Dont ypu have anything better than red herrings, Greed?


----------



## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> you're treating telepathy like a beam though when it isn't displayed like that most of the time
> 
> the nature of it remains the same, as in it happens as fast as the psychic thinks of it



So basically speed equal is useless in any match including psychic, even against the OP's intentions.


Sounds a little bias.


----------



## willyvereb (Feb 15, 2014)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Pretty sure speed equal only equates to movement speed/combat speed and not reactions otherwise I've been bullshitted for 4 fucking years.
> 
> Unless stated otherwise (and more or less still be retarded otherwise), that'd be the case.


You obviously were, then.
There had been a brief period when people tried to subvert the speed equalization rule and make up BS claims like G2 is a different formso it allows Luffy to blitz or that we only equalize movement speed and reactions stay the same.

But no, the basic intention of a "speed equal" scenario is to axe out any issue regarding the difference in speed.
And no, it doesn't mean scaling down the speed to the slowest char but usually the opposite.
Otherwise we'd have a situation when a bullet-timer char suddenly cannot dodge bullets.
Even though that's an integral part of his/her skillset.

So yeah, speed equalization means exactly what is said on the tin.
It equalizes any kind of character speed.
Does not mean that melee attacks and projectiles launched from 10+ meters would hit at the exact same time.
The attack which is 10 times further away would also hit 10 times later than the other.
Under equalization rules.


----------



## Kazu (Feb 15, 2014)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> What's silly about preventing blitzing but leaving other options to supplement? Cuz that's the entire point of speed equal. Not like you can blitz a ^ (use bro) from 10km on reactions alone.



You kind of can when you have shit like, you know, TP or reality warping.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 15, 2014)

? said:


> unrestricted on the hand...



With such a massive speed difference it's pretty obvious what happens. Hence why I haven't even thought about debating that. I dont think anyone would.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 15, 2014)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> What's silly about preventing blitzing but leaving other options to supplement? Cuz that's the entire point of speed equal. Not like you can blitz a ^ (use bro) from 10km on reactions alone.



The fact you're slanting shit in the favor of psychics/reality warpers when you only equalize the movements as opposed to mental speed?

You're defeating the intent not to have a blitz to occur basically.


----------



## Qinglong (Feb 15, 2014)

willyvereb said:


> As for the nature of telepathy, it's the best to think about it like warp travel.
> It traverses the unknown space between various minds.
> So it effectively hits in an instant.
> On the other hand the effects of telepathy is gradual.
> ...





			
				TWF said:
			
		

> also Willy is wrong
> mindfucking in SW is instantaneous
> not gradual
> like what happened to that Gotal who tried to read Darth Maul's mind
> and ended up instantly mindfucking himself



**


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 15, 2014)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Sounds a little bias.



not really

an ability's an ability, the more biased thing to do is hamper it needlessly


----------



## Fujita (Feb 15, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> The fact you're slanting shit in the favor of psychics/reality warpers when you only equalize the movements as opposed to mental speed?
> 
> You're defeating the intent not to have a blitz to occur basically.



Hell, even without mental attacks, having better reactions is an advantage even with the same movement speed 

This is why abilities like precog are so useful. Having far better reactions accomplishes something similar (to less effect, though).


----------



## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

Regarding Willys TP mechanics thing

Jedi Mind Tricks tend to be less mental hacking and more overwhelming power of suggestion

Wouldnt that circumvent the time lag and create a truly instant conclusion for someone with Othinus mindfuckery resistance?


----------



## teddy (Feb 15, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> not really
> 
> an ability's an ability, the more biased thing to do is hamper it needlessly



This really. having a leg up on someone who doesn't have a similar skill they can pull off the bat _(that instantly covers the distance between them no less)_ shouldn't cause anyone to question the integrity of the "speed equal" stipulation


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 15, 2014)

Tayuya

Look at that delay on erasing memories.


----------



## willyvereb (Feb 15, 2014)

Well, the said suggestion was given via words so you could say the delay was exactly the time it took one to comprehend them.
A better example should be if a Jedi/Sith pulls of a seemingly instantenous mental attack in the middle of combat (against somebody with similar level of speed).


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 15, 2014)

It wasn't a suggestion. He clarifies he actually erased the memories.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 15, 2014)

When I said "overwhelming power of suggestion" I meant that it literally happens as soon as the command is issued, rather than it being specifically hacked into like you were suggesting, Willy


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Feb 16, 2014)

Oi Flutter.

Don't put words into my mouth.

If you had actually read all of the four lines of that response, you'd have noticed that I pointed out that Hidalgo isn't as authoritative as Chee.

And that my response was indicative of me being out of the loop regarding context and everything.

Hence the IIRC. A useful little acronym that acts as a disclaimer that hey, maybe you should look at the context a little yourself because the person who is telling you this is working from shoddy memory and potentially from second-hand information.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 16, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> then speed equal = all speed (including reactions) equal



Yeah, i made the first scenario with this in mind

So it wouldnt get instantlocked cause off hurpdurpspite


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 16, 2014)

tbh

i think speed-equal just means movement speed equal

not the equalisation of reactions and sure as fuck not the equalisation of _speed of thought_


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 16, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> tbh
> 
> i think speed-equal just means movement speed equal
> 
> not the equalisation of reactions and sure as fuck not the equalisation of _speed of thought_



No, it means equalisation of everything these days

willy confirmed it


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 16, 2014)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> No, it means equalisation of everything these days
> 
> willy confirmed it



goes i shouldn't be surprised a toddler needs training wheels, even it's a toddler in half a bikini with UNIVERSAL FILTERS


----------



## Ulti (Feb 16, 2014)

BLS threads are the best for this


----------



## Nevermind (Feb 17, 2014)

Ah, Star Wars threads, going off topic into EU and speed equal just like you'd expect.

Some things don't change. Cube being though OP?  Thought that was under dispute.


----------



## teddy (Feb 17, 2014)

It's accepted now though. not to mention othinus is pretty much a glass cannon with not-so up to par telepathic defenses


low cube level in dc only


----------



## Qinglong (Feb 17, 2014)

Basically a scaled up version of Haruhi wearing strips for clothing


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Greed, that isn't actually defense against mindfuck, last I checked. Othinus and Ollerus purify themselves or some shit after reading the grimoires, if I remember correctly.

Whereas Index just plain isn't affected at all.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

> With that said, I don't know if this is unquantifiable or not, and even if you equate 1 book=one kill via mindfuck, it's still only the equivalent of 103,000 kills via mindfuck. And someone of EU luke's level is far above mindfucking 103,000 people from what I understand.



yep

immaterial, really


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

@Regi
I made note of that. Ollerus is stated to purify himself. That's never been said for Othinus, and Index is obviously unaffected.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> yep
> 
> immaterial, really



I was just making note of it. She does have resistance...It's just a matter of resistance on the level she has not mattering.

But, it seems people agree she wins most of the time with speed equal, while she gets wrecked in an unrestricted scenario. So this thread is pretty much done anyway.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

> But, it seems people agree she wins most of the time with speed equal



no, see

i don't get that

why would her FILTERS take effect before luke's mindfuck?


----------



## Amae (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> But, it seems people agree she wins most of the time with speed equal


Who exactly are these people?


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> @Regi
> I made note of that. Ollerus is stated to purify himself. That's never been said for Othinus, and Index is obviously unaffected.


Othinus and Ollerus have similar powersets.

Why assume that the reason she possesses the grimoires is any different than his unless specifically stated that she's not affected?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

is instant mindfuck the absolute first option Luke would be going for in a random given no knowledge fight ?


that bit is pretty important in a quickdraw match where you need to use just the right attack to immediately OHKO the other party or risk getting one-shotted yourself


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

and the same question goes for Othinus


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

that is the most desperate argument in the universe, that one

"but how do we _know_ that the character would open with the most effective attack? let's talk about his usual approaches!"

anyhow, precog


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> no, see
> 
> i don't get that
> 
> why would her FILTERS take effect before luke's mindfuck?



Because they activate at thought speed. It's basically a quick draw contest. Othinus's filters activate at the speed of thought.

In an in-character scenario, is luke really most likely to use mindfuck as his first attack? Because if not, Othinus wins. The first thing she did in her first major fight after she had 100% control over her powers was nuke the universe.

If both characters use their strongest moves first then it's 50/50. But in character, what is luke most likely to do.



Regicide said:


> Othinus and Ollerus have similar powersets.
> 
> Why assume that the reason she possesses the grimoires is any different than his unless specifically stated that she's not affected?



Because she has never even shown the ability he uses to filter the grimiores contamination. The only similarity in their power is that they both hold a shit ton of grimiores. That's about it.



Fluttershy said:


> is instant mindfuck the absolute first option Luke would be going for in a random given no knowledge fight ?
> 
> that bit is pretty important in a quickdraw match where you need to use just the right attack to immediately OHKO the other party or risk getting one-shotted yourself



Pretty much this.

Also I hope you lost a bet with that sig.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

> "but how do we know that the character would open with the most effective attack? let's talk about his usual approaches!"


it's the absolute best kind of match (especially since we don't, and can't know)

where you actually consider that instead of automatic best choice 

makes it much more interesting .. IIRC someone even said as much recently in a blog


depends on the characters too of course, some don't have the luxury of the choice


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

> Also I hope you lost a bet with that sig.




I am depraved enough to just slap it on myself


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Because she has never even shown the ability he uses to filter the grimiores contamination. The only similarity in their power is that they both hold a shit ton of grimiores. That's about it.


Other than the fact that they're both Magic Gods or near Magic Gods, who both specialize in Norse mythology?

She's not going to have less abilities than Ollerus, Greed. It's fucking Hli?skj?lf we're talking about here, which is more likely than her having resistance to mental pollution that's never alluded to.


----------



## Amae (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> ....



Still didn't answer my question.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> that is the most desperate argument in the universe, that one
> 
> "but how do we _know_ that the character would open with the most effective attack? let's talk about his usual approaches!"



It's a legit argument. A character's mindset is a vs match does matter sometimes.



> anyhow, precog


If both are dropped into the match at the same time it doesn't really help.

Precog only helps if the match lasts past the first instant. He cant activate his telepathy or his precog before the match starts, so it's kind of useless in a quickdraw match where the first move can end the other.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> it's the absolute best kind of match (especially since we don't, and can't know)
> 
> where you actually consider that instead of automatic best choice
> 
> ...



no, it's a way of debating which allows you to clutch at straws to forestall inevitable conclusions

same thing danger dong used when arguing PR beyonder wouldn't be able to destroy lucifer. "what is he, a genius? why would he immediately try to kill him?"



Othinus said:


> Because they activate at thought speed. It's basically a quick draw contest. Othinus's filters activate at the speed of thought



_so does telepathy_



> In an in-character scenario, is luke really most likely to use mindfuck as his first attack? Because if not, Othinus wins. The first thing she did in her first major fight after she had 100% control over her powers was nuke the universe.
> 
> If both characters use their strongest moves first then it's 50/50. But in character, what is luke most likely to do.



guess whichever SW expert is willing to pander to this stale straw-clutching attempt will answer that


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Amae said:


> Still didn't answer my question.



A few pages back. I don't feel like looking.



Regicide said:


> Other than the fact that they're both Magic Gods or near Magic Gods, who both specialize in Norse mythology?
> 
> She's not going to have less abilities than Ollerus, Greed. It's fucking Hli?skj?lf we're talking about here, which is more likely than her having resistance to mental pollution that's never alluded to.



She has never shown or used Hli?skj?lf before. To assume she has it is just a guess. In fact, in lore, Ollerus/Ullr stole Hli?skj?lf (the throne of odin) from Odin, so her not having it is completely believable.


----------



## Amae (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> A few pages back. I don't feel like looking.


Probably because no one actually agreed she would win.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> no, it's a way of debating which allows you to clutch at straws to forestall inevitable conclusions
> 
> same thing danger dong used when arguing PR beyonder wouldn't be able to destroy lucifer. "what is he, a genius? why would he immediately try to kill him?"



I pretty much commented on this on some blog



> it's the Outskirts Battledome, not Outskirts Writingdome
> 
> the characters are supposed to be in a fighting mentality and duke it out
> 
> ...



and yes, Luke is more than willing to mindfuck bloodlusted, he actually has done it in the Hand of Thrawn books IIRC


----------



## teddy (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> no, see
> 
> i don't get that
> 
> why would her FILTERS take effect before luke's mindfuck?



Pretty much what i said before. even in a speed equal scenario any edge she'd have isn't that big


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> She has never shown or used Hli?skj?lf before. To assume she has it is just a guess.


And assuming she has resistance to the effect of grimoires isn't?

Which one do you think is more likely, Greed?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

> no, it's a way of debating which allows you to clutch at straws to forestall inevitable conclusions
> 
> same thing danger dong used when arguing PR beyonder wouldn't be able to destroy lucifer. "what is he, a genius? why would he immediately try to kill him?"


wrong

it's about *which* way/method/attack will you immediately use to kill the other party, since some can be OHKOs, some less effective and some ineffective


not so important in most matches, but quite important in a "quickdraw"


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I pretty much commented on this on some blog
> 
> 
> 
> and yes, Luke is more than willing to mindfuck bloodlusted, he actually has done it in the Hand of Thrawn books IIRC



absolutely goddamn right


and that settles it then 



Fluttershy said:


> wrong
> 
> it's about *which* way/method/attack will you immediately use to kill the other party, since some can be OHKOs, some less effective and some ineffective
> 
> ...



nope

the battledome setup is meant to obtain the truest result, which is the same reason we now apparently equalise ALL speed, not just movement speed

hedging on whether luke really would use his best move is nothing but you clutching at straws


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

I already said, that it's 50/50 if both characters use their strongest moves first. 

However:


			
				General OBD assumptions said:
			
		

> Whenever possible, battle descriptions should be detailed, including:
> 
> 1. What versions of the characters are being used.
> 2. The location of the battlefield and any special conditions thereof.
> ...


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

and you want to fuck off with that fanfiction approach to vs debating, incidentally, flutter, because it's very easy to turn against you

we assume they'll use their most effective move for the same reason that we always go with high end feats unless they're complete outliers 

your disingenuous blabber about how we should take into account what they _usually_ do and ask, "would they _really_ do this or that?" can be pretty easily met with people saying "well, why do we pretend only high end feats are the reality? there were xyz times when naruto barely seemed to be supersonic, and they outnumber the times he didn't, so why're we not taking that into account?"


----------



## teddy (Feb 17, 2014)

Honestly there's too much conjecture and speculation behind deciding what kind of attack luke or othinus is going to resort, and it ends up being one or both sides plotting fanfiction instead of legit points

they're bloodlusted
they're out to win at all cost even if it means killing the oppostion



> *Blood Lust: *
> It should be on, unless otherwise stated.
> 
> One would think that if you take two characters and pit them against each other, they would try to end it as quickly and brutally as possible.
> ...




why _should_ we assume either side will settle for less?


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> I already said, that it's 50/50 if both characters use their strongest moves first.
> 
> However:



guess we better get BLS to clarify CIS is off too, then

what a wet fart of a bore this is


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

> nope
> 
> the battledome setup is meant to obtain the truest result, which is the same reason we now apparently equalise ALL speed, not just movement speed
> 
> hedging on whether luke really would use his best move is nothing but you clutching at straws


maybe his ~moon level (?) TK or mad LS skills or fold-space or emerald lightning thingie or whatever else is his best move 



and the "truest result" may work if you just want to compare the raw stats/calcs (or basically even profiles) of 2 chars


if you want to try and simulate an actual real fight between them, then there are more factors to consider

granted, OBD prefers the former I guess .. even though the latter is more interesting I think


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

> and you want to fuck off with that fanfiction approach to vs debating, incidentally, flutter, because it's very easy to turn against you
> 
> we assume they'll use their most effective move for the same reason that we always go with high end feats unless they're complete outliers
> 
> your disingenuous blabber about how we should take into account what they usually do and ask, "would they really do this or that?" can be pretty easily met with people saying "well, why do we pretend only high end feats are the reality? there were xyz times when naruto barely seemed to be supersonic, and they outnumber the times he didn't, so why're we not taking that into account?"


still missing the point

well, whatever


----------



## Amae (Feb 17, 2014)

That outdated "General OBD assumptions" quote ends up being meaningless to the topic at hand for the aforementioned reasons and it even contradicts itself. 

More time was spent debating policy and ToAru than the actual match and no one has agreed with you. Othinus loses either way.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> still missing the point
> 
> well, whatever



it's you who's missing the point

and after i went through so much effort to ram it into your head 

but horse skulls are thicker than human ones


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Feb 17, 2014)

Things to learn from this thread:

-Speed Equal is often immensely stupid.
*-ALWAYS SPECIFY WHETHER YOU ARE USING STAR WARS EU CHARACTERS IN THE CLEAREST WAY POSSIBLE*


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 17, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I see people saying Othinus has planet-level durability and triple-digit mach speeds and such...
> 
> If that's true, then she fucking blitzes, or just stands there and allows everything Luke hits her with to be laughably ineffective.



top kek is all this deserves


----------



## teddy (Feb 17, 2014)

Amae said:


> That outdated "General OBD assumptions" quote ends up being meaningless to the topic at hand for the aforementioned reasons *and it even contradicts itself.*
> 
> More time was spent debating policy and ToAru than the actual match and no one has agreed with you. Othinus loses either way.



This so much

_Bloodlusted: "It should be on, unless otherwise stated.

One would think that if you take two characters and pit them against each other, they would try to end it as quickly and brutally as possible."_

_CIS On: "Basically, just because a character can go all out from the start and use their most powerful abilities, or use tactics that would ensure victory, they most likely won't, if CIS "_


it's an unnecessary headache trying to consider what the hell they'll open up with. especially in this scenario when it comes to how extensive their respective skillsets are. in luke's case his telepathy is the most effective weapon in his arsenal to open up with because in one fell swoop he can

1. turn the other competitor into a vegetable
2. learn what he needs to know about them

why should we assume he'll double back from that?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 17, 2014)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Things to learn from this thread:
> 
> -Speed Equal is often immensely stupid.
> *-ALWAYS SPECIFY WHETHER YOU ARE USING STAR WARS EU CHARACTERS IN THE CLEAREST WAY POSSIBLE*



But I only use EU exclusive characters anyway (Revan, Vitiate, Nihilus, etc).

Or is that not enough for some people? 

No, wait, I remember having to deal with some fucker talking about EU and canon in a thread with EU exclusive fuckers before... so my question answers itself for me I guess.


----------



## Qinglong (Feb 17, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> But I only use EU exclusive characters anyway (Revan, Vitiate, Nihilus, etc).
> 
> Or is that not enough for some people?
> 
> No, wait, I remember having to deal with some fucker talking about EU and canon in a thread with EU exclusive fuckers before... so my question answers itself for me I guess.



Specifying the incarnation in the thread title isn't enough Chaos

And that second bit is just


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> i feel like you're just doing to it to keep up appearances now niku



Isn't Othinus like the strongest thing in TAMNI?

Why is this thread even here.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

can you even comprehend it, Niku


CAN YOU ?


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Isn't Othinus like the strongest thing in TAMNI?
> 
> Why is this thread even here.



cos she's got insufficient mental defenses and insufficient speed


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Isn't Othinus like the strongest thing in TAMNI?


Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> can you even comprehend it, Niku
> 
> 
> CAN YOU ?



That's for me to know and the rest of you to have a fucking agonizing time trying to figure out. 



Lucaniel said:


> cos she's got *insufficient mental defenses* and *insufficient speed*



Sounds like Itachi would be her Kryptonite.

What's her speed like?


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Sounds like Itachi would be her Kryptonite.
> 
> What's her speed like?



loool

insufficient mental defenses FOR LUKE



Othinus said:


> Well, she does have some mental defense. Having all 103,000 grimiores just like index.
> 
> Yamisuka Ouma tried to take a single book into his head and it just about made his head explode. A single book will kill a normal person, and Othinus, Index, and Ollerus memorized 103,000 without even suffering from the slightest side effects. Albeit it seems that Ollerus is using his "Throne of Odin" defence to filter the mindfucking, but Index and Othinus do not.



probably okay for itachi

speed is massively hypersonic iirc


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

... **



> Why is this thread even here.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 17, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> ... **



You know that thing when Only 5 Seconds was taken seriously for Narutoverse here way back?

It's kind of ironic that you're pretty much trying to do the same shit by ignoring all Luke's fairly decent speed feats.

Or any of Star Wars decent speed feats for that matter.

Cut the bias shit that's not a tired, if not harmless, running joke.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You know that thing when Only 5 Seconds was taken seriously for Narutoverse here way back?
> 
> It's kind of ironic that you're pretty much trying to do the same shit by ignoring all Luke's fairly decent speed feats.
> 
> ...



Whatever.

What do I know, anyway; ever since I hit 27,300 posts, I've been a Shit Lord. Guess that's karma.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2014)

Niku sais movie Jedi are peak human or something IIRC concerning that Akainu vs Vader thread recently


didn't ya ?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 17, 2014)

Just so long as you acknowledge the general hypocrisy of it 

Karma is a bitch, right?


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> Niku sais movie Jedi are peak human or something IIRC concerning that Akainu vs Vader thread recently
> 
> 
> didn't ya ?



well

based on all their peak human reflexes and movement speed consistent throughout all the movies

yes :ignoramus


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Just so long as you acknowledge the general hypocrisy of it
> 
> Karma is a bitch, right?



Lea and Anakin were bitches.

Karma is a rancorous, hepatitis-ridden corpse of a whore for making me have to be a Shit Lord for God knows how many more posts.


----------



## Sygurgh (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't remember an agreement on Othinus having planetary durability. She was "smashed to piece by the attack." Depending on what is decided, she can either regen from being attacked by a planet+ attack (attack potency) or from having her lower body smashed to piece (effect of the attack). In this case, a lightsaber might cut her, but she should regen just fine.

Edit: +1 for the close.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Amae said:


> Othinus loses either way.



You missed the part where it was 50/50 even with CIS off.

And xelloss locked the thread....

If someone wants it opened PM me I guess.


----------



## Xelloss (Feb 17, 2014)

Ok here we go, please keep it on topic.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Wait, what?


----------



## Freddy Mercury (Feb 17, 2014)

Xelloss said:


> Ok here we go, please keep it on topic.



Ajimu kills this bitch.


on topic (as on topic as my sexuality)


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> You missed the part where it was 50/50 even with CIS off.



othinus getting her attack off is contingent on her having a functioning brain

you'd have to go pretty deep into the mechanisms of FILTERS to work out who'll take effect faster tho i guess

can you provide the relevant extracts?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Yea. Give me a second


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

[braces self for kamachi's writing]


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

NT8 - epilogue said:
			
		

> And…
> NT Index v08 414-415.png
> 
> Magic God Othinus lightly spun the lance around in one hand and pointed its tip toward the heavens.
> ...



That's one of them.


Here's another:



			
				NT9-Chapter 6: Shifting and Fluctuating World. Version_Beta. said:
			
		

> “What?”
> 
> “I am saying that hope and a chance of victory can lead to a fatal blow.”
> 
> ...



The next scene after the above was this:



			
				NT9-Chapter 6: Shifting and Fluctuating World. Version_Omega. said:
			
		

> “…Ah!?”
> 
> Kamijou awoke.
> 
> ...



So yea, it's instant.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> [braces self for kamachi's writing]



It's not like it used to be. The quotes Raidou posted were from volume 1. From what I understand, the author was like 14 at that time. Though he still uses some odd comparisons.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> From what I understand, the author was like 14 at that time.


This is wrong.

We don't know how old he was at the time of writing Index, just that he didn't finish anything until after graduating high school, and that Index was written after Schrodinger's Road.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Regicide said:


> This is wrong.
> 
> We don't know how old he was at the time of writing Index, just that he didn't finish anything until after graduating high school, and that Index was written after Schrodinger's Road.



I remember hearing he was 14 when he made volume 1 and 2. Maybe it was misinformation. Though if that's wrong there is literally no information about him. Even those with pen names can usually be found.

Ive never heard of Schrodinger's Road though.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Side note: An instant is relative

I still stand by the mechanics explanation I have earlier in the thread

Othinus needs to, when activating a spell (just like every other reality warper in the series), channel the necessary prana, prepare the spell itself, specify intent, and then activate it

Its a three step process at minimum

Luke just goes "now you're lobotomized" and thats the fight right there


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Maybe it was misinformation.


Take a wild guess.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Side note: An instant is relative
> 
> I still stand by the mechanics explanation I have earlier in the thread
> 
> ...



so this



> She spoke slowly.
> 
> She uttered two short sentences.
> 
> ...



speaking slowly part

that's not for dramatic effect? i assumed it was


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Ive never heard of Schrodinger's Road though.


It was his submission for one of Dengeki's contests, back in 2002.

Index was written about a year later.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

How quickly it occurs is determined by mental processing speed, i.e. reaction time

And since we all agreed that Speed Equal means even thinking speed is equal, Othinus doesnt get that edge

Once again, Ars Magna was not constantly activated by Allerus Izzard, and when it was, he needed to focus his intent before the effects took place.

Theres nothing indicating that Othinus' Filters are any different in those basic requirements, and even thats setting aside the Will of the Misaka Networks convoluted as fuck explanation about the realms of the living and the dead being manipulated in order to affect causality.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> so this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Izzard when using Ars Magna also said what he wanted out loud, after injecting that focusing drug into himself

So it may not be


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> so this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's dramatic effect. She didn't even say any chant or anything.

In the second quote she finished talking to Touma, and then in the next instant the world was changed.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

you two are just gonna have to sort that one out for yourselves, i suppose


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Izzard when using Ars Magna also said what he wanted out loud, after injecting that focusing drug into himself
> 
> So it may not be



Except Ars Magna is an entirely different, and incredibly more limited powerset.

Some magicians require chants, prep, or some ritual. Othinus, and most of the other high level characters have never shown anything like that.

Once again, if she requires prep. prove it. I've been waiting for pages. Using other unrelated characters with different powersets as examples is not proof no matter how much you want it to be. Show Othinus doing some ritual or whatever or just deal with it.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Izzard when using Ars Magna also said what he wanted out loud, after injecting that focusing drug into himself


Shit was acupuncture, Chron.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Shit was acupuncture, Chron.



acupuncture, and he needed to speak his words to confirm his thoughts to gain better control of his power.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Except Ars Magna is an entirely different, and incredibly more limited powerset.
> 
> Some magicians require chants, prep, or some ritual. Othinus, and most of the other high level characters have never shown anything like that.



Ars Magna:
>Reality Warping by the user with little negative consequences outside of exorbitant requirements to obtain
> Limited by the users imagination and knowledge set
> Planetary in range

Filters:

>Reality Warping by the user with little negative consequences outside of exorbitant requirements to obtain
> Limited by the users imagination and knowledge set
> "Universal" range

Im not seeing those differences, Greedo 



Regicide said:


> Shit was acupuncture, Chron.



Still ugly as fuck


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> acupuncture, and he needed to speak his words to confirm his thoughts to gain better control of his power.



He spoke in order to make it more specific

For example, Styl surviving being made into a "living constellation"


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm not the only one who doesn't see this discussion going anywhere, right?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Ars Magna:
> >Reality Warping by the user with little negative consequences outside of exorbitant requirements to obtain
> > Limited by the users imagination and knowledge set
> > Planetary in range
> ...



Ars magna was building level and the mechanisms behind it were explained in detail. 

And I'm still waiting for you to show some proof rather than spouting crappy association fallacies.


----------



## Ramius (Feb 17, 2014)

You're not. I'm actually going for the idea that precog is useful to some extent even in speed equal scenarios. Plus mind crush comes off as so much simpler. But at this point, I think almost everybody is tired of debating this. It will be going circles from now.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Ars magna was building level and the mechanisms behind it were explained in detail.
> 
> And I'm still waiting for you to show some proof rather than spouting crappy association fallacies.



So him reversing the damage from, and then wiping out the origin of, the Gregory Chant used against him were entirely coincidental

lolok

Now then, whats this crap about prep you keep spouting?

I said that she needs to do more than one thought in order to do shit

Luke only needs one to win the fight

Keep on relying on those red herrings, greedo


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Ramius said:


> You're not. I'm actually going for the idea that precog is useful to some extent even in speed equal scenarios. Plus mind crush comes off as so much simpler. But at this point, I think almost everybody is tired of debating this. It will be going circles from now.



Precog, under normal circumstances is usually useful. The problem is that both can kill eachother right when the match begins, or when they are "dropped into the VS match". Basically, precog can't activate before the match even starts.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> So him reversing the damage from, and then wiping out the origin of, the Gregory Chant used against him were entirely coincidental
> 
> lolok
> 
> ...




So the Gregorian Chant is planetary now? yea ok. It had a long range, but it didn't destroy anything more than a building. Still abusing the association fallacy either way.

.....I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. Once again, post proof of her "requiring more than one thought". I mean damn, post a quote of something if you want to prove a point.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

tbh

horrible as it is to say

i'm with greedo here

only one side is being backed up with proof



			
				Greedo said:
			
		

> Once again, post proof of her "requiring more than one thought". I mean damn, post a quote of something if you want to prove a point.



not been answered yet


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

> The quotation I'd cite is one of the most egregious examples of lolKamachi I've ever seen
> 
> If I cited that I'd have to then argue that exposition was in line with authorial intent and therefore was canon
> 
> ...



so the evidence for your assertion is something you don't want to be canon?

what?


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Feb 17, 2014)

Calm down, guys. If the debate is getting too heated, just agree to disagree or take a break and return later instead of resorting to personal attacks. It's bad form and, frankly, quite unsightly for a debate section. You guys are better than this. If I have to take action again, I'm just going to lock the thread and, depending on the severity, possibly dish out bans.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> so the evidence for your assertion is something you don't want to be canon?
> 
> what?



No, I dont want to argue that a shitty in verse speculated explanation is the reason I'm correct

I'd much rather cite previous examples relying on the universes established rules for how magic works, and even refer to past instances of straight up reality warping

Like I said, I already know I'm correct, Greed's just doing this to win the argument by pretending it doesnt.

If anyones doubting the canon simply because he doesnt like it, it's Greed in this case.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Figure we were better off when the thread was locked, honestly.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> No, I dont want to argue that a shitty in verse speculated explanation is the reason I'm correct



_why?_

whatever it is that you aren't mentioning, it sounds like it's canon. if you think it would shore up your point, then use it



> I'd much rather cite previous examples relying on the universes established rules for how magic works, and even refer to past instances of straight up reality warping
> 
> Like I said, I already know I'm correct, Greed's just doing this to win the argument by pretending it doesnt.
> 
> If anyones doubting the canon simply because he doesnt like it, it's Greed in this case.



this is dumb

you're claiming you have some game-changing piece of evidence which you're too good to use because it's convoluted speculation

that's dumb

just say what it is


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

For the record, I wasnt flamebaiting

I meant every word

The explanation is found here, like I said, I dont want to rely on it


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> _why?_
> 
> whatever it is that you aren't mentioning, it sounds like it's canon. if you think it would shore up your point, then use it
> 
> ...



Random exposition assumes that the Filters are the result of interfering with the difference between the realms of the living and the dead

Somethingsomething Einherjdar somethingsomething reviving people and letting them die alters the universe somethingsomething smellslikebullshit


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> For the record, I wasnt flamebaiting
> 
> I meant every word
> 
> The explanation is found here, like I said, I dont want to rely on it



can you quote the relevant part

there's a lot there


----------



## KaiserWombat (Feb 17, 2014)

Jesus

11 pages, 5 mods*, at least over a dozen deleted messages and zero proximity to conclusion

There is very minimal reason for this thread to not have been foreclosed by now, but I guess that is at the discretion of the Super Mod (as long as they don't act like a stubborn mule and recognise a potential no-win situation in continuing this debate if it derails any further)...

*At the time of my initial viewing of this thread


----------



## Nep Heart (Feb 17, 2014)

So, can we come to a consensus of who wins since the semantics are just going overboard now?


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

> “Like I said, it seems Othinus has free control over the life and death of humans, but I think she has two distinct pieces of software, one for the living and one for the dead /return. Like a god, I guess /escape? Like a heavenly world and a human world /escape? Like heaven and hell /escape? It might be based in a religious concept I don’t really understand /return.”
> “…”
> “But I’m a single organic system created from 20,000 units, y’know /escape? Or if you want to get technical, 20,001 units /return. There’s also that Third Season, but that’s not my territory /return. She’s more like someone that’s hacked in, so I don’t really accept her /return. Anyway, the network forming me contains information from both the Misakas who are currently still alive and the Misakas that are currently dead /return. In other words, I’m alive while dead and dead while alive /return.”
> “…”
> ...



what, this?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

^Kaiser I just didn't want to get called lolbias.

There's a reason I didn't take any action against chron and left it to others.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

It's literally _so bad_ an explanation for how the reality warping works that it made me regret reading the volume just to see what Greed was hyping

And then I saw how the volume ended and lost whatever respect I had left for Kamachi as a writer


----------



## Qinglong (Feb 17, 2014)

Can someone translate that into english

actual english


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> what, this?



There is no other explanation for how it works

Like I said, I could cite it as authorial intent in an obvious exposition moment and therefore as canon, but _that's the argument I'd rather not make_

So draw your own conclusion


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Ampchu said:


> So, can we come to a consensus of who wins since the semantics are just going overboard now?


Evidently not.

Does anyone even give a shit about the conclusion of the match at this point anyways?


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> There is no other explanation for how it works
> 
> Like I said, I could cite it as authorial intent in an obvious exposition moment and therefore as canon, but _that's the argument I'd rather not make_
> 
> So draw your own conclusion



well my own conclusion is that "Othinus has free control over the life and death of humans"

luke is a human

so her power affects him

how was any of it relevant to the speed or the "instantaneous" or otherwise nature of her attack?


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> well my own conclusion is that "Othinus has free control over the life and death of humans"
> 
> luke is a human
> 
> ...



Like I said, thats how the spell works

Its indirect

Its a spell to manipulate those who are living and those who are dead, so given the mechanics of the spell, Othinus has to actually use the spell, and set Luke as the target for it before anything actually happens

It wouldnt take effect before a mindrape could occur. It comes down to thinking speed.

Which resolves faster, one thought or many?


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Like I said, thats how the spell works
> 
> Its indirect
> 
> ...



what about that other quote:



> Magic God Othinus lightly spun the lance around in one hand and pointed its tip toward the heavens.
> 
> She spoke slowly.
> 
> ...



where she speaks and "immediately" destroys everything?

seems instantaneous


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

And its literally so bad because how does that determine something like the second filter she applied, and Touma becoming a big enough criminal that Japan was destroyed?

Causality manipulation makes sense, at least for that, but manipulating dead souls and living souls for that is just...really fucking convoluted.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

To add, we were even given an illustration after that happened.


An excellent ink-splash.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

And to add to that, MisakaWill is essentially incorporeal.

As her name implies, she is literally just a "will".


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> what about that other quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its a series with people like Accelerator, whos able to multitask thousands of complex thought processes at the same time.

Thinking speed being slower than reaction or movement speed doesnt make much sense, does it?

She just set it up in the time it took to twirl her lance and make her little statement.

Superhuman reaction speed for complex maneuvers is nothing new in fiction. And, like Ive said before, an "instant" is relative.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

And the other quotes I posted in the thread......?

She spun the lance once when creating the black world. In the other worlds she did absolutely nothing. It just changed. Look at the Beta-Omega transition.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> And to add to that, MisakaWill is essentially incorporeal.
> 
> As her name implies, she is literally just a "will".



I feel like I cant even call you out on your hypocrisy at this point.

As an addition to my previous post, there's never an instance of Othinus using her Filter spontaneously

There's evidence of this as well


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> And the other quotes I posted in the thread......?
> 
> She spun the lance once when creating the black world. In the other worlds she did absolutely nothing. It just changed. Look at the Beta-Omega transition.



...

You literally said it yourself

She specifically, as well as Ollerus and presumably others on her level, doesnt need to set up a magic circle or make a flashy motion in order trigger her spells.

God I hate you right now, making me even semi-seriously regurgitate your previous arguments in this very same discussion.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

> [02:40:10] Fang: like I said how does she think and activate an ability
> [02:40:18] Fang: when her mind is being flayed by Luke
> [02:40:21] Fang: because we already know
> [02:40:29] Fang: she doesn't have the telepathic power to even stand up to Luke's TP
> [02:40:34] Fang: to last even long enough to get the power off





> [02:41:35] Fang: the assumption is if she can fire off her attack at the same time
> [02:41:45] Fang: but the problem is Luke's attacks are faster
> [02:41:52] Fang: his reactions are augmented by precognition
> [02:42:03] Fang: and its going to directly affect her ability to attack him



speed points


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> speed points



What I've been saying this entire time.

Also, Greed, every use of her Filters has been pre-meditated

Sure they took effect in an instant

But she didnt spend that same instant coming up with them


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

I already brought up the precog thing earlier.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

I already know what you're going to say Greed

And rest assured

I'm eagerly waiting for it


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Also, Greed, every use of her Filters has been pre-meditated
> 
> Sure they took effect in an instant
> 
> But she didnt spend that same instant coming up with them



proof plz          .


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> I already brought up the precog thing earlier.



Doesnt matter

Why would Luke even give her the chance to come up with an attack before preventing her from being able to act against him?

The man's not new to combat. He knows how this shit works.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

apparently you completely missed my old post. Ive repeated myself at least 2 times already in regards to precog.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> I already brought up the precog thing earlier.



what did you say?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

.............I feel like half my posts in this thread must have been missed or something.....

Give me a second...............


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> proof plz          .





> Kamijou Touma did not win even once.
> He was crushed, sliced, smashed, ripped apart, blown up, and torn to pieces.
> That normal high school boy?s flesh was always accurately destroyed. *Whenever the light of life in his eyes flickered weakly like a candle?s flame and began to go out, a slight wave would rise in Othinus?s heart.*
> Give up and move forward.
> ...



Every time he's about to die, Othinus revives him because she still hasnt made up her mind. She stops, considers it, then begins the process all over again intentionally.

Black Labyrinth rather strongly implies that she simply just erased the world all over again, rather than do something complicated like mentally torture Touma again, doesnt it?

You could argue that the fact that it occurs right before Touma dies makes it truly instantaneous, but superhuman reaction speed makes such an approach little more than grasping at straws.

So yeah. Burden of proof is on you to determine that an instant truly is "instant" in this case, Greed.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

also



> [02:52:57] Fang: which is badly ambigious and not particularly detailed, her durability is apparently shitty but her regen is high yes
> [02:53:06] Fang: but the difference is she did not take that whole attack
> [02:53:10] Fang: apparently only her lower body was affected
> [02:53:17] Fang: if Luke atomized her whole body
> ...



does she have a form beyond her physical one? if her entire body is atomized, can she regenerate?


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Doesnt matter
> 
> Why would Luke even give her the chance to come up with an attack before preventing her from being able to act against him?
> 
> The man's not new to combat. He knows how this shit works.





Othinus said:


> apparently you completely missed my old post. Ive repeated myself at least 2 times already in regards to precog.



Oh?


Othinus said:


> @Luc
> 
> 
> **



...




TehChron said:


> Doesnt matter



I thought you were referring to something else for a second


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

So her heart wavering somehow=needs to process many thoughts?

wat


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> does she have a form beyond her physical one? if her entire body is atomized, can she regenerate?


Short answer?

No.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

> Precog, under normal circumstances is usually useful. The problem is that both can kill eachother right when the match begins, or when they are "dropped into the VS match". Basically, precog can't activate before the match even starts



depending on whether othinus actually needs to focus on luke to use the mechanism of her ability and so on

and the precog would instantaneously provide luke with the information he needs



> [02:54:00] Fang: considering the Obi-Wan example in the RoTS novel where it told Obi-Wan
> [02:54:02] Fang: exactly what to do
> [02:54:04] Fang: how to do it
> [02:54:08] Fang: and when to do it through the Force
> ...


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> So her heart wavering somehow=needs to process many thoughts?
> 
> wat



that's twice she's waved her lance to do something

does she need to do that?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> also
> 
> 
> 
> does she have a form beyond her physical one? if her entire body is atomized, can she regenerate?



She doesn't have anything beyond her physical form.

She is ok with a huge hole in her head and without a lower body. That's the most I could tell you.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> also
> 
> 
> 
> does she have a form beyond her physical one? if her entire body is atomized, can she regenerate?



Hasnt been stated yet

But if she can survive a piercing attacking with planet+ destructive power, theres no reason to assume she cant survive something below that

I mean, she ripped Gungnir out of her skull through her eye socket and retained the ability to string two sentences together


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> She doesn't have anything beyond her physical form.
> 
> She is ok with a huge hole in her head and without a lower body. That's the most I could tell you.



hole in her head - where are you getting that from?


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> that's twice she's waved her lance to do something
> 
> does she need to do that?



She also made a huge light show by channeling the fairy stake thing in her when she lost Gungnir

So she doesnt need to swing Gungnir specifically to activate the spell. That implies that Gungnir is necessary for the Filter to take effect in the first place


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Hasnt been stated yet
> 
> But if she can survive a piercing attacking with planet+ destructive power, theres no reason to assume she cant survive something below that
> 
> I mean, she ripped Gungnir out of her skull through her eye socket and retained the ability to string two sentences together



below it in total energy doesn't necessarily mean below it overall

she regenerated from having nothing below the neck - what if she was completely atomized?


----------



## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> hole in her head - where are you getting that from?



*Spoiler*: __ 





> It came from the head of the blonde-haired, green-eyed girl named Othinus.
> 
> The black eyepatch was pushed out from within. An object covered in a dark red liquid shot out from the empty eye socket. It continued on and on.
> 
> ...





This, presumably.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

example of force precog courtesy of fang


----------



## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> So her heart wavering somehow=needs to process many thoughts?
> 
> wat



Only that she needed to think before activating the spell

Two thoughts take longer to resolve than one thought

But you already know this and continue to act obtuse


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> that's twice she's waved her lance to do something
> 
> does she need to do that?



She's just a showoff, half the time she doesn't do anything, once she snapped her fingers, and she waved her spear a couple of times.



			
				Warped the world without doing anything said:
			
		

> NT9-Chapter 6: Shifting and Fluctuating World. Version_Beta. said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The one where she snapped her fingers:


> “So you saw through my malice. And here I thought it would be an interesting experiment in destroying your identity.”
> 
> “I don’t know how, but you wrote on the blackboard, pulled out that photo, and set up other tricks without using your hands. If I had given another name, you could have simply applauded and praised me. You could create as much false evidence as you needed to prove I had chosen correctly.”
> 
> ...



So yea, she's a show-off.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

okay

anyways greedo

coming back to the original tack of luke simply mindfucking her

if othinus has to take more "steps" in her thought process than luke (luke needs only one), then she's done

the elaboration of othinus's method suggests she does


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't know where your getting the multiple steps thing from. Which quote are you referring to here?


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Wait I'm confused, is fang talking about the unrestricted scenario here....?


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## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> I don't know where your getting the multiple steps thing from. Which quote are you referring to here?



the one techron referred to, about her needing to select the living or dead with her "piece of software"



Othinus said:


> Wait I'm confused, is fang talking about the unrestricted scenario here....?



nope, equalised one


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> the one techron referred to, about her needing to select the living or dead with her "piece of software"
> 
> 
> 
> nope, equalised one



The einherjar spell?


> “This shining sky that’s all about appearances isn’t like you /return. I’ll take you somewhere much more Kamijou Touma-like /return.”
> 
> After that comment, the girl known as the Will had led him here.
> 
> ...



That's related to manipulating life/death....

It isn't the filters she used to change the universe .


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Luc quoted the specifically relevant part where the Misaka network actually started the exposition

And yes, it is the Filter

Why would they be talking about a totally random spell completely unrelated to their current predicament?


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> nope, equalised one



In which case, I think fang is missing my point. Someone can know everything that happens in  the future and exactly how to counter them. But how is that helping when both use an ultimate move that will destroy the other right when the match begins? Precog can't activate before a match begins. 


I'll put it this way:

Scenario 1: Othinus and Luke are dropped onto earth -> at 0.000000000001 seconds into the battle, Othinus tries to nuke the universe while luke tries to mindrape Othinus. It's either a 50/50 as to who wins or it's an double KO.

Scenario 2: Othinus and Luke are dropped onto earth -> at 0.000000000001 seconds into the battle, Othinus tries to nuke the universe while luke uses precog and figures out that Othinus is about to nuke the universe and then procedes to try and mindrape Othinus. It doesn't really change anything.

precog lets you know the future, and in some cases how to prevent said future. But if said future is unpreventable, and both characters are activating their abilities at the same time they are dropped into the match, then precog doesn't even matter. To add to this, precog doesn't "increase" reactions, it just lets a character know what is coming.


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Playing deaf in order to justify a really convoluted straw man


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Luc quoted the specifically relevant part where the Misaka network actually started the exposition
> 
> And yes, it is the Filter
> 
> Why would they be talking about a totally random spell completely unrelated to their current predicament?



it's specifically stated to be an updated einherjar spell. The spell used to revive bersi. Not sure how your getting the idea that a spell that recreates the universe completely is somehow the same as one that simply controls life, and is limited to that...


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

You made your post while I was making my reply to Luc.....


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> it's specifically stated to be an updated einherjar spell. The spell used to revive bersi. Not sure how your getting the idea that a spell that recreates the universe completely is somehow the same as one that simply controls life, and is limited to that...



Its clearly not limited to that, Greed

Apparently the updated Einherjar Spell, better known as The Filter, is potent enough to warp reality on a universal scale by the mere act of rearranging the deceased and the living

Crazy world Kamachi lives in, huh?


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> You made your post while I was making my reply to Luc.....



I've been repeating the same thing ad nauseum since the thread started, Greed

"Not being aware of what the argument actually _is_" is indeed playing deaf

And then you created a straw man with the opening you hoped that would make


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Its clearly not limited to that, Greed
> 
> Apparently the updated Einherjar Spell, better known as The Filter, is potent enough to warp reality on a universal scale by the mere act of rearranging the deceased and the living
> 
> Crazy world Kamachi lives in, huh?



I seriously hope your being sarcastic or something here. Because trying to claim that a spell that revives the dead is the one that nuked the universe is a bit....uh.....out there.


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## Qinglong (Feb 17, 2014)

Er no she's completely and utterly boned in Scenario 2


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> I seriously hope your being sarcastic or something here. Because trying to claim that a spell that revives the dead is the one that nuked the universe is a bit....uh.....out there.



And yet that is what you did

You even made a Meta thread about it before reading the volume in question

And hell, you even proved it to the satisfaction of the OBD at large

_Be proud_


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Qinglong said:


> Er no she's completely and utterly boned in Scenario 2



I never disagreed about that. I was referring to scenario 1, and have been in this whole thread. She gets wrecked in scenario 2. He's what, mach 30k+ now with powerscaling? Yea, she gets wrecked.



TehChron said:


> And yet that is what you did
> 
> You even made a Meta thread about it before reading the volume in question
> 
> ...



Dude I don't even know what to say. Your being ridiculous here.


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## Qinglong (Feb 17, 2014)

That seemed to imply otherwise but okay


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## OS (Feb 17, 2014)

typical to aru threads. Fight on Greedo.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

More than anything I'm surprised it has lasted this long.


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

So since you intend on continuing to distance yourself from your accomplishments, Greed, I'll put it in simple black and white for you

Why would Kamachi devote a significant chunk of exposition to discussing the mechanics of a spell that is completely irrelevant to the events of the volume, and by your reasoning, has yet to even make an appearance in the series proper?


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 17, 2014)

Tehchron.....I don't even know what to say to this. Your trying to claim that a spell that is outright stated to revive the dead is the one used to do something completely unrelated like recreating the universe.

How does manipulating life or deatn grant universe re-writing powers?


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Tehchron.....I don't even know what to say to this. Your trying to claim that a spell that is outright stated to revive the dead is the one used to do something completely unrelated like recreating the universe.
> 
> How does manipulating life or deatn grant universe re-writing powers?



Hey, dont blame me

Its your argument


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

If I recall, even, I vehemently opposed you when you made that very claim yourself

But you got it accepted by the OBD at large, so I dont really see why you're disowning it like any number of unwanted children, Greed


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## Gundam Meister (Feb 17, 2014)

Techron to be sure if updated Einherjar Spell, is one in the same with the filter creation spell is that spell ever brought up again after that scene when discussing the filter creation spell or was that the only time it was brought up ?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 17, 2014)

TehChron said:


> If I recall, even, I vehemently opposed you when you made that very claim yourself
> 
> But you got it accepted by the OBD at large, so I dont really see why you're disowning it like any number of unwanted *chicken*, Greed



fixed that for you


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## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

What is this discussion even about anymore?


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## Fujita (Feb 17, 2014)

Okay, so



> “If I had to guess…” Kamijou finally spoke. “I’d say the software that manipulates the living and dead is based on the Einherjar spell. The spell was only able to move dead bodies without them rotting, but she must have updated it to its perfect form with the lance or something.”



Let's make this simple

Did the thing with the annoying speech pattern survive Othnius rewriting the universe because it's neither "living" nor "dead" ?


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## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Fujita said:


> Did the thing with the annoying speech pattern survive Othnius rewriting the universe because it's neither "living" nor "dead" ?


No.

Apparently she's aware of the changes, but there's no indication that she's around whenever Othinus reverts everything to the black void.


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## teddy (Feb 17, 2014)

What the hell is this thread even about anymore?


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## teddy (Feb 17, 2014)

Oh, and sup es


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## Es (Feb 17, 2014)

Othinus said:


> In which case, I think fang is missing my point. Someone can know everything that happens in  the future and exactly how to counter them. But how is that helping when both use an ultimate move that will destroy the other right when the match begins? Precog can't activate before a match begins.
> 
> 
> I'll put it this way:
> ...




Greed wot? Force Precog lets you know what your opponent will do before they do it instinctively, and guess what? Lukes precog is really really fucking good. Not to mention Bloodlust in on in the OBD standard. Allways

So it's less of 50/50 and 100/0 in favor of Luke


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## Fujita (Feb 17, 2014)

Regicide said:


> No.
> 
> Apparently she's aware of the changes, but there's no indication that she's around whenever Othinus reverts everything to the black void.



Okay, so



> ?That means you can?t call me part of the living or the dead /return. And Othinus only has software to handle those two cases, so *I slipped through the cracks and she can?t manipulate me* /return. Unfortunately, I can?t be certain about any of this because it?s related to technology from outside Academy City /return.?



What is she referencing here?


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## Regicide (Feb 17, 2014)

Fujita said:


> Okay, so
> 
> 
> 
> What is she referencing here?


Othinus altering everyone's memories or some shit.

From what I remember, anyways.


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## Es (Feb 17, 2014)

? said:


> Oh, and sup es


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## Es (Feb 17, 2014)

? said:


> What the hell is this thread even about anymore?



Luke Mindraping a bitch so badly her brain can be sold at a street market


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## TehChron (Feb 17, 2014)

Gundam Meister said:


> Techron to be sure if updated Einherjar Spell, is one in the same with the filter creation spell is that spell ever brought up again after that scene when discussing the filter creation spell or was that the only time it was brought up ?



Thats the only time a spell is referred to as "software based on the Einherjar spell"

Or even really the word Einherjar in the entire volume, really

Its described, bluntly, as the tool to effect change

Also, the reason why the Will of the Misaka Network wasnt carried over into the next few iterations:



> The Will of the Misaka Network had watched that boy?s back as he left.
> She was now all alone in that empty white room.
> In that dark rectangular space, something like white glowing flower petals floated through the air.
> ?Honestly, you don?t make this easy /return,? she muttered.
> ...



Because she simply ceased to exist

So ultimately, yes she was, in fact, affected. It was due to a loophole in the mechanics of the spell itself that allowed for her to exist like that, albeit temporarily.



Regicide said:


> No.
> 
> Apparently she's aware of the changes, but there's no indication that she's around whenever Othinus reverts everything to the black void.



Exact opposite, in fact


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 18, 2014)

Es said:


> Greed wot? Force Precog lets you know what your opponent will do before they do it instinctively, and guess what? Lukes precog is really really fucking good. Not to mention Bloodlust in on in the OBD standard. Allways
> 
> So it's less of 50/50 and 100/0 in favor of Luke



So he knows what's going to happen, so he can react before the match begins, or faster than he normally could? 

Precog isn't a mental speed boost, it just lets someone know what is going to happen before it actually happens, and sometimes how to deal with said situation. It simply allows a character to see the future.

If both characters activate their abilities at the exact instant the match starts, how is his precog going to allow him to allow him to mindrape her faster than he normally would?

Remember, it does not boost mental speed, just lets someone know something is going to happen before it actually happens.

When dropped into a VS match at the exact same time as his opponent, How does a character avoid a universe buster or activate their own ability quicker just because of precog? Remember, they are both attacking at the exact same instant.


I really can't make this much more clear.


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## TehChron (Feb 18, 2014)

I cant it much clearer how it doesnt matter, though 

One thought resolves faster than many, after all


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## Es (Feb 18, 2014)

Greed

Greed

Greed

Do you have any Idea how force Precog works

Precog in SW isn't some vague shit, it's very precise in powerful users such as Luke. Fuck Jax Praven reacted to a Laser automatically , and his was flickering in and out. And Luke is millions of miles ahead of him


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 18, 2014)

Chron, I'm not dealing with you anymore. I've proven you wrong time and time again and am getting tired of doing it. I'm done. You have mentally exhausted me. You win, congrats. You can continue to stalk me if you want, but I'll let someone else deal with your "arguments" when and if they want to. I will only respond if someone directly refers to one of them when asking me a question.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 18, 2014)

Es said:


> Greed
> 
> Greed
> 
> ...



I'd assume like most precog works. I don't know if you've read Black Cat, but I'd assume something like Sven's Glasper Eye. Sorry if you don't understand what I'm saying here. Maybe my wording was bad, but I don't know how to word it otherwise.....


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## Es (Feb 18, 2014)

> Remember, it does not boost mental speed, just lets someone know something is going to happen before it actually happens.



That's wrong and my above post specifies


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## Es (Feb 18, 2014)

> I'd assume like most precog works. I don't know if you've read Black Cat, but I'd assume something Sven's Glasper Eye. Sorry if you don't understand what I'm saying here. Maybe my wording was bad, but I don't know how to word it otherwise.....



It's instant Greed. As soon as a force user detects shit going down they act


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 18, 2014)

Is force precog different than future sight? My SW knowledge is limited to the movies so....


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## Es (Feb 18, 2014)

Oy vey 


In SW Seeing the future is Farsight. It's completely different of a power.

Precog is Danger sense. When you know someone is going to act malevolently. Naturally depending on the threat you'll feel greater urgency. You Also act to it accordingly AKA sclicng someone in half before they get a hit in


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 18, 2014)

So basically spidey sense.

Ok....


What did you think I was trying to say when I said this:



			
				me said:
			
		

> When dropped into a VS match at the exact same time as his opponent, How does a character avoid a universe buster or activate their own ability quicker just because of precog? Remember, they are both attacking at the exact same instant.



Both attacks are coming at the same time. They can not activate said attacks or their precog faster than the instant the match begins. Or before the match begins. It does not mean either can activate their ability faster than they normally would.

Since we seem to have some misunderstanding as to what I'm saying here, what do you think I mean by the above?


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 18, 2014)

I'm honestly just looking for clarification here, nothing more. No other motive. Just curious as to what you think I meant.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Feb 18, 2014)

Luke has shatterpoints as well as precog just by the by. Shatterpoints being another power that tells one exactly how to win a situation, the opponent's weaknesses, so on and so forth. This essentially means that Luke exactly knows what to do to win.

So even if they activated their powers at the exact same time, it wouldn't be a double defeat, as Luke could jut mentally suggest that it'd be a great idea to reverse the reality warping and bring him back. Something _well_ within his capability.


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## Es (Feb 18, 2014)

> Both attacks are coming at the same time. They can not activate said attacks or their precog faster than the instant the match begins. Or before the match begins. It does not mean either can activate their ability faster than they normally would.



Greed what are you doing? Precog is automatic. instantaneous. It is very much faster then the instant the match starts. Again Jax reacted to a Laser with his precog being hampered and Luke is infinately beyond him. He will sense danger and mindfuck the shit out of her


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## TehChron (Feb 18, 2014)

Othinus said:


> Chron, I'm not dealing with you anymore. I've proven you wrong time and time again and am getting tired of doing it. I'm done. You have mentally exhausted me. You win, congrats. You can continue to stalk me if you want, but I'll let someone else deal with your "arguments" when and if they want to. I will only respond if someone directly refers to one of them when asking me a question.



First sentence is posturing, second is a blatant lie combined with a rationalization for conceding a lost argument in the face of evidence of hypocrisy and general wrongness.

Fourth is more posturing and rationalization. Fifth is petulance. Sixth is rationalization with an attempt to play off as having come off the better in the engagement while also acting condescending, and last sentence is more condescension in an attempt to salvage wounded pride.

Tell you what, Greed

Quit being two faced when it comes to discussing ToAru, and I'll happily quit trying to correct you whenever you try to wank the series.

Is that so much to ask?


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 18, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> So even if they activated their powers at the exact same time, it wouldn't be a double defeat, as Luke could jut mentally suggest that it'd be a great idea to reverse the reality warping and bring him back. Something _well_ within his capability.


Do suggestions hold even if wiped from existence?



Es said:


> Greed what are you doing? Precog is automatic. instantaneous. It is very much faster then the instant the match starts. Again Jax reacted to a Laser with his precog being hampered and Luke is infinately beyond him. He will sense danger and mindfuck the shit out of her



That's where the confusion is then. Nothing can happen before a match actually starts.


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## TehChron (Feb 18, 2014)

If a Talk no Jutsu can hold sway over Othinus after a reality warp takes effect

Then a forced compulsion which she has no means or knowledge to resist is obviously still going to hold


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## ThanatoSeraph (Feb 18, 2014)

Unless she reality warps herself, which she should really have no reason to do, that's a non-issue. The command's already been sent by that point and would be lodged in her mind even if Luke was erased.


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## Es (Feb 18, 2014)

> [1:31:55 AM] Fang: >Luke parts his ship within 100 meters of a ravine
> [1:32:00 AM] Fang: >Taalon parks his on the other side of it
> [1:32:10 AM] Fang: >Taalon is already walking in the ravine ie
> [1:32:18 AM] Fang: >100 meter distance from Luke's hiding spot
> ...



Basically what Luke can react to Chaos theory has calced it to be 3 to 6 times FTL in reactions


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## TehChron (Feb 18, 2014)

Actually, were still discussing the Speed Equal scenario


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## Sygurgh (Feb 18, 2014)

> "Time to die, Wizard Number 2," said Wizard Number 1 as he lifted his wand. Disarmed, Wizard Number 2 could do nothing as his vision was filled with green light.


Does the lack of description mean that nothing happened between the act of lifting the wand and "instantly" dying?



> "Time to die, Wizard number 2," said Wizard Number 1 as he lifted his wand. In the next instant, Wizard Number's 2 vision was filled with green light.


Does the word instant mean that the act of lifting the wand killed the other wizard instantly, 0,000(...)0001 second later?

I don't mean that "instant" doesn't exist, but I think you must have a minimum of details



> "Time to die, Superm..."
> In the next instant, before her eyes could interpret his movements, Superman's fist smashed through Othinus' skull.


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## strongarm85 (Feb 18, 2014)

To Othinus, whether or not a character is canon is irrelevant so long as it is published.

The Expanded Universe version of Luke Skywalker doesn't stop existing even if he isn't canon anymore, especially for use in the OBD.

There is no reason to be so salty.

It is what it is, and one or another you'll  just have to get over it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 18, 2014)

> *even if* he isn't canon anymore





> just have to get over it


indeed


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## Lucaniel (Feb 18, 2014)

another case here of salt in the hoof


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 18, 2014)

Luc, you have to be even more active then me 

that award didn't go to the right recipient


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## Lucaniel (Feb 18, 2014)

> Total Posts: 34,443
> Posts Per Day: 41.26



numbers do not lie


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## Fujita (Feb 18, 2014)

strongarm85 said:


> To Othinus, whether or not a character is canon is irrelevant so long as it is published.
> 
> The Expanded Universe version of Luke Skywalker doesn't stop existing even if he isn't canon anymore, especially for use in the OBD.
> 
> ...



I think it's more like Greed just saw a cheap shot and took it 

What that says about him and his reaction to the thread I'll just let everyone decide for themselves


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## Es (Feb 18, 2014)

Fluttershit you have nothing to contribute to this thread. Disappear


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 18, 2014)

nope.jpg            .


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## Regicide (Feb 18, 2014)

Can we lock this shit now?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 18, 2014)

good  idea


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## Es (Feb 18, 2014)

No. Flutter go back to your ghetto and fap off to narudo


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## Lucaniel (Feb 18, 2014)

es don't get banned the same day you get back

that is still known as doing a luc and i don't want that to change


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 18, 2014)

don't listen to him, Es

get banned


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## Lucaniel (Feb 18, 2014)




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## KaiserWombat (Feb 18, 2014)

Don't care now, this just looks like a total mess

Locked


----------

