# Vista vs Luffy and Zoro



## Lycka (May 7, 2013)

Distance: 60 feet
Som: serious need to finish this fight type.

*BONUS SCENARIO *: Add Sanji to the mix, yo.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (May 7, 2013)

Vista dies       ...........


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## Zorofangirl24 (May 7, 2013)

Current zoro=vista thus luffy and zoro win


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## tanman (May 7, 2013)

I guess they win, based on nothing other than the fact that it's 2 v 1 and Vista is near featless.


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## Rob (May 7, 2013)

I feel like Vista should still be above even that combo, tbh. 
As much as I hate to say it.


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## jNdee~ (May 7, 2013)

Luffy and Zoro High diff, 1 of them may even die during the the crossfire.


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## Imagine (May 7, 2013)

People would be talking about another story if this were Marco or Jozu.


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## Blαck (May 7, 2013)

Current Luffy and Zoro might still get rocked but maybe could take it extremely high diff.


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## Lawliet (May 8, 2013)

Luffy and Zoro should take this. Vista is fucking overrated.


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## RF (May 8, 2013)

Replace Vista with Jozu and people would be saying he rapes ...

Vista mid-high difficulty


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## Extravlad (May 8, 2013)

Vista high diff.



> Vista is fucking overrated.


The guy stalemate a Yonkou level fighter and he is overrated?


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## Mihawk (May 8, 2013)

Vista high diff

Anyone who thinks Zoro is on the same level as Vista are delusional


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## Dunno (May 8, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Replace Vista with Jozu and people would be saying he rapes ...
> 
> Vista mid-high difficulty



And that is because Jozu is the most overrated character in all of NF. Luffy and Zoro takes this, just like they would take Jozu.


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## Extravlad (May 8, 2013)

Jozu, Marco and Vista are the M3 of the strongest crew in the world.

The same crew who fought against Gol D. Roger.

And you Dunno are just saying Luffy can beat Jozu alone.

LOL.


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## ShadowReaper (May 8, 2013)

Zoro and Luffy humiliate him.


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## RF (May 8, 2013)

Nope. Jozu and Vista are terribly underrated. Along Marco, they're the Monster Trio of the strongest man in the world.


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## LB04 (May 8, 2013)

Vista has so many amazing feats...
I say he wins high-extrem diff. Stopping Mihawk is quite something, and not getting fodderzised by him is even more. Yeah, it was only a brief clash and Mihawk wasn't dead serious but still more than I think Luffy or Zoro can hope to do right now. 
Add Sanji and Vista still wins with extrem diff.


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## SesshomaruX2 (May 8, 2013)

Zoro wins this after a good long fight.


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## Rob (May 8, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Vista high diff
> 
> Anyone who thinks Zoro is on the same level as Vista are delusional



But dood! Zolol iz ta svordman off da hurka durka and he traint widt mihark!


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## 2Broken (May 8, 2013)

Getting praise from Mihawk and not being fodderized by him does not mean he can take Luffy and Zoro at the same time. Luffy and Zoro have the the destructive feats to hurt him for sure and Vista has shown nothing to say he could beat either one alone with ease.

Based of what little we have seen Vista do + reasonable hype he loses, if he does get more impressive feats later maybe that will change, but I doubt it.


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## Demonspeed (May 8, 2013)

How could Vista lose? He is one of the strongest swordsman even Mihawk can't take him lightly.And it's obvious that Mihawk>>>>Luffy + Zoro actually. He should win mid-dif at worst.


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## Tony Stark (May 8, 2013)

Vista vistas with vista diff.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Seriously though I think Vista takes this high diff.


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## Lord Melkor (May 8, 2013)

Hmm, I am not sure, I wouldn`t consider him significantly weaker than Doflamingo, who dealt easily with Smoker.


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## Lycka (May 8, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> But dood! Zolol iz ta svordman off da hurka durka and he traint widt mihark!




No one acts like that in the One Piece Avenue, you're making yourself look like an idiot.


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## Green Monkey (May 9, 2013)

Luffy and Zoro win mid difficulty.  Luffy would give Vista  good fight alone.


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## Urouge (May 9, 2013)

vista wins this


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## Rob (May 9, 2013)

OPtiers said:


> No one acts like that in the One Piece Avenue, you're making yourself look like an idiot.



>OPTiers calling someone an idiot.


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## blueframe01 (May 9, 2013)

The duo takes this. I personally think that Luffy & Law would tag to beat Dofla in this arc. if that happens, then Luffy & Zoro tag team would definitely beat Vista IMO. Vista isn't as strong as Dofla, by hype or feats.


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## zorokuma (May 9, 2013)

will answer this after dofla is defeated.


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## Lycka (May 9, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> >OPTiers calling someone an idiot.



Cry some more.


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## Lawliet (May 9, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> Vista high diff.
> 
> 
> The guy stalemate a Yonkou level fighter and he is overrated?


They clashed for couple minutes lol.



Doflαmingo said:


> Vista high diff
> 
> Anyone who thinks Zoro is on the same level as Vista are delusional



I don't think Zoro is on the same level as Vista, but I don't think Vista can beat Zoro anything less than mid - almost high difficulty, now add Luffy to the equation. 

I'll actually change my original answer to. Extreme difficulty to whoever wins. Hard to say to be honest. but I'm leaning towards Luffy and Zoro.


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## MYJC (May 9, 2013)

Luffy and Zoro high-diff.


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## Doma (May 10, 2013)

zorokuma said:


> will answer this after dofla is defeated.



Pretty much this. If Luffy soloes him, then I'd say a Luffy/Zoro combo takes out Vista quite handily because I doubt Vista can take out two Dofla level fighters.

But if it requires both Law, Luffy, and a bit of PIS/CIS then I'd say Vista high/extreme diff.


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## Quuon (May 10, 2013)

Luffy and Zoro take it. High-extreme diff.


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 4, 2014)

DD ~ Jozu >(high / very high diff)> Vista >(~mid diff)> M3 lvl fighter.

Vista's clash with Mihawk and his told reputation shouldn't make him easy fry here. Mihawk 'd need probably mid / mid-high diff. to take out Vista. Of course it depends on the given matchups but with that difference in power between a serious Vista and current M3 it doesn't really matter either. 

Luffy is still vulnerable against a SM like Vista which leads to great disadvantage.

Vista around mid-high / high diff. against both seems fine.


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## Orca (Jan 4, 2014)

Luffy and zoro should win this. And it's not because vista is weak. It's because a Luffy and zoro are THAT strong.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 4, 2014)

Vista beats Luffy and Zoro mid-high diff. Not sure about Vista vs M3, I'll answer that after Dressrosa.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 5, 2014)

Vista wins high-extreme diff just cuz of luffys and zoros extreme willpower


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## Shinthia (Jan 5, 2014)

Zoro and Luffy should win this without going to extreme diff.


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

Reviving old threads


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

Luffy and Zoro should take it.


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

Vista wins very high difficulty.


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

Vista loses both scenarios. There's no way he beats all of the M3 combined. 
And Now I believe Zoro and Luffy should take it. Zoro and Luffy are not to be underestimated at this point of the Manga.


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## barreltheif (Jan 5, 2014)

Luffy and Zoro high diff. Lolvista


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

Aside from the 2 V 1, no reason for me to believe that Zoro can give Vista a particularly hard time on his own. 

Vista is the strongest swordsman of the WB Pirates, and the main swordsman of the WSM's crew with veteran haki usage of over 24 years, being able to spar with Mihawk in the war. 

Even theoretically, Zoro shouldn't be at the level where he can challenge and give the WB Pirates' strongest swordsman a hard fight. His skill and swordsmanship, at this point of the story, isn't even there yet. Mihawk would merk Current Zoro and make him look like a sorry sight. 

Also, Doflamingo made an individual M3 level fighter seem like a pushover. 

Add in Luffy with Zoro, and they definitely give Vista a hard time, but a victory isn't even guaranteed at this point.


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## Shinthia (Jan 5, 2014)

if Luffy solo Dofla then this is an easy win for Zoro & Luffy.
Even if Luffy & Law or Luffy & Zoro beat Dofla together in 2 vs 1 , Vista will still lose.here. (Unless u think Vista > Dofla ,thats another story)


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jan 5, 2014)

Vista loses. I'm not even sure whether Luffy alone could stalemate (not beat) Vista. After all he will beat Doflamingo this arc, who i view as stronger than Vista.


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Aside from the 2 V 1, no reason for me to believe that Zoro can give Vista a particularly hard time on his own.
> 
> Vista is the strongest swordsman of the WB Pirates, and the main swordsman of the WSM's crew with veteran haki usage of over 24 years, being able to spar with Mihawk in the war.
> 
> ...



You're forgetting that Doflamingo is stronger than Vista, at least that's my own opinion. It is true that story wise, Zoro shouldn't be able to beat Vista, because if we say something like that, it's like saying Zoro can beat a yonkou's strongest swordsman, but do we really know how strong Zoro is? Add Luffy to his side against Vista, and you have a formidable team. If Luffy ends up beating Doflamingo or at least push him high difficulty on his own, then Vista aint winning a fight against both Luffy and Zoro, and Sanji in the 2nd scenario. 

Vista's Haki shouldn't be much better than Luffy's if it's better at the first place. That's what separates Luffy from the rest of the world, he's that special, he's that strong and his potential exceeds any character that's alive right now. What takes years to people like Vista to learn, Luffy learns it in a matter of months. Sanji commented on on Luffy's strength when he knew that it was Rayleigh who trained him for two years and how he should be really strong right now. People do not wanna accept it, but the fact is, Luffy keeps widening the gap between him and the rest with Zoro following him every time. 

Vista is a formidable opponent, no one is taking that away from him, but to claim that he can beat Zoro and Luffy in a fight as a fact, is a little bit too much for me. He might pull off a win, who knows, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to team Luffy.


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

Why are people talking about Luffy soloing Doflamingo? Do some people here seriously think that Luffy can beat him alone without some sort of handicap?


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

Oh so you now can predict how the arc is ending? It's not like oda has been super unpredictable or anything.


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## Shinthia (Jan 5, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Why are people talking about Luffy soloing Doflamingo? Do some people here seriously think that Luffy can beat him alone without some sort of handicap?


Well thats how Luffy always beat the arc villain so its not something to be surprised.


step 1: learn the secret of DD's hex df .

step 2: learn how to counter the hex in Luffy's baka way (like Water Luffy and shit)

step 3: beat Doflamingo


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

Lawliet ill reply later this afternoon(so hands off this discussion guys), but ur making so many baseless speculations in that post

I think your overrating Luffy if you think his Haki is already on Vista's level and close to Jozu's.
Stop jumping to conclusions.

All people who commented on the M3's strength so far have been far from specific.


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

> Well thats how Luffy always beat the arc villain so its not something to be surprised.



Err, no. Moriah was heads and toes above him, and Luffy still beat him. 

Not like that matters, you can't compare Doflamingo to other arc villains. They were hyped up to be far above Luffy through red herrings, Doflamingo's feats are concrete - he took a dump on Smoker, Sanji and Law (albeit injured) - 3 people undoubtdebly on Luffy's level - and only got a small slice on his cheek throughout all of those encounters. It's not as simple as "countering Dofla's haxx" - the dude is above him in many, many ways which doesn't only include haxx but physical ability as well; he easily evaded Sanji and blocked DJ moves with a goddamn feather coat for crying out loud.

I'm not denying that he's losing this arc, he obviously is, but we don't know _how_ he's going to lose, there are virtually millions of possibilities ranging from a team effort, to Dofla being severely weakened and I can go on until tomorrow. 

Fact is Dofla has time and time again proven that he's well above Supernova level fighters and there's absolutely no reason to assume otherwise just because he's going to lose to one in God knows which manner this arc.


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Lawliet ill reply later this afternoon(so hands off this discussion guys), but ur making so many baseless speculations in that post
> 
> I think your overrating Luffy if you think his Haki is already on Vista's level and close to Jozu's.
> Stop jumping to conclusions.
> ...



Take your time, I'll disappear until you reply.


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Oh so you now can predict how the arc is ending? It's not like oda has been super unpredictable or anything.



Also your actually helping RG's argument with this post.

If Oda is truly unpredictable as you say, then the last thing he would do is make Doffy fall to Luffy in a simple 1 v 1


Edit: I just saw the post above this one so I apologize as I said I'd reply later. Thanks for your patience ill address those points as best I can


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## Vengeance (Jan 5, 2014)

Hm, they shouldn't be that far below him individually imo so maybe they can take it.


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## MrWano (Jan 5, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Well thats how Luffy always beat the arc villain so its not something to be surprised.
> 
> 
> step 1: learn the secret of DD's hex df .
> ...



Yes, but the point is that the win most likely won't be clear cut, and whether or not Luffy really is as strong, or close to as strong asDoffy will be ambiguous. Well, there will most likely be people assuming that it isn't ambiguous at all, but yeah. 
We're probably looking at another Crocodile scenario here given Doffy's strong portrayal against Sanji, Smoker and Law. Meaning that if Luffy does somehow beat him in a 1v1, we'll hear about PIS, plot armor,etc. for another decade, just like we've had to do with Crocodile. 

OT: I think it the duo takes it with extreme diff. Vista hasn't done much, but stalemating Mihawk is quite impressive, as is being a prominent WB commander.


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## Shinthia (Jan 5, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> *I'm not denying that he's losing this arc, he obviously is, but we don't know how he's going to lose, there are virtually millions of possibilities ranging from a team effort, to Dofla being severely weakened and I can go on until tomorrow. *


yes, and among those possibility Luffy soloing DD is one and thats not very low either considering .
what we have seen so far


> I think your overrating Luffy if you think his Haki is already on Vista's level and close to Jozu's.
> Stop jumping to conclusions.
> 
> All people who commented on the M3's strength so far have been far from specific.



Vista's haki level ? What level is that ? His only haki feat was to failing to hurt Akainu . (so is Marco but Marco proved his haki against other Admirals).

So what r we supposed to to do other then speculation when none of the M3 had an all out fight ?


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

If Luffy and Doflamingo were to fight it out at this exact point in the story, Luffy would get his arse handed to him. Denying that is crazy, Don just outright massacred Sanji and beat up Law like a stepchild. 

Chances of Luffy winning against Dofla by himself this arc are high, but not without a couple of rematches, help, excessive knowledge on his abilities, handicaps etc. etc.

Under those conditions Vista would completely crush Don, so that really isn't relevant to this thread at all.


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## Shinthia (Jan 5, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> If Luffy and Doflamingo were to fight it out at this exact point in the story, Luffy would get his arse handed to him. Denying that is crazy, Don just outright massacred Sanji and beat up Law like a stepchild.
> 
> Chances of Luffy winning against Dofla by himself this arc are high, but not without a couple of rematches, help, excessive knowledge on his abilities, handicaps etc. etc.
> 
> Under those conditions Vista would completely crush Don, so that really isn't relevant to this thread at all.



well we need just 1 or 2 chapter to find that out.

I feel knowledge is the most important thing against DD. If somehow Luffy find a way to avoid DD's hex trapping ability then Luffy can fight evenly with DD and win imo.

No comment.


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

Lawliet:



> It is true that story wise, Zoro shouldn't be able to beat Vista, because if we say something like that, it's like saying Zoro can beat a yonkou's strongest swordsman, but do we really know how strong Zoro is?



The classic, "We haven't seen Luffy, Zoro, Sanji go all out yet", argument, right? 

We know that Zoro couldn't even match up to a new Admiral, and even if you want to make the argument that Zoro's showing was more impressive than it actually is, Zoro isn't much stronger than Sanji, and we know that Sanji was even with Vergo until he lost the upper hand, so we can assume that while Zoro is stronger than Sanji, but not by much, he is still roughly in the ballpark of the stronger Vice Admirals.

Vista is, much stronger than any Vice Admirals barring exceptions like Garp, and unknown factors like Onigumo. 

Not that it matters, since you already agreed that story wise, it makes no sense for Zoro to even give Vista a tough fight atm, since we're only just past the halfway mark, and it is too soon for Zoro, whose entire character is based on his dream revolved around his craft of swordsmanship, to be on a similar level as Whitebeard's strongest swordsman.



> And Luffy to his side against Vista, and you have a formidable team. *If Luffy ends up beating Doflamingo or at least push him high difficulty on his own*, then Vista aint winning a fight against both Luffy and Zoro, and Sanji in the 2nd scenario.



The bolded is something we won't know until the end of this arc.




> Vista's Haki shouldn't be much better than Luffy's if it's better at the first place.



What? Is it even being questioned that Vista's haki is better than Luffy's? While Rayleigh did train Luffy in haki, you have to remember that he trained him in the *basics of haki.*

Vista has been on the WSM's ship for over 24 years, if not more. He was able to clash with Mihawk, and you don't do that without being very proficient in haki. Do you think that a DF-less Luffy can clash with a sword-less Mihawk in a pure clash of haki? Do you think that Luffy's haki is good enough to clash with the haki of Yonko class fighters? I do not think so. 



> That's what separates Luffy from the rest of the world, he's that special, he's that strong and his potential exceeds any character that's alive right now. What takes years to people like Vista to learn, Luffy learns it in a matter of months. Sanji commented on on Luffy's strength when he knew that it was Rayleigh who trained him for two years and how he should be really strong right now.



This is all so intangible and lofty. How can you even quantify any of his potential in relation to how strong he is compared to people like Vista, at the moment? I feel like your just addressing his potential and putting it out there. You might as well make the same argument every time.

No one is questioning his potential here, but his future potential isn't a solid argument by any means to support his current strength. How do you know that he has reached Vista's level of strength at the current moment based on his potential? 

Potential is not an argument, as there is no basis for it. it is an intangible factor we cannot quantify until we actually see Luffy at the height of his potential. 

And like I said, whenever people comment on the strength of the SHs, it is so vague and hyperbolic to a sense. Sentomaru, Tashigi, and Law have all made references to how strong they must have gotten, yet they don't tell us how much. There are so many varying perspectives here, that they are not really telling us what we do not already know. Obviously, we already know the SHs have gotten stronger, but those guys don't tell us by how much. They simply tell us that they are strong, by generically saying, "they are strong". 

Doflamingo himself complimented Sanji twice, yet he still made short work of him. So obviously, vague compliments of strength are hardly even convincing.




> People do not wanna accept it, but the fact is, Luffy keeps widening the gap between him and the rest with Zoro following him every time.



A fact? Only a few paragraphs above did you claim that we haven't even seen the M3 go all out, so how is it a fact by any means that you already seem to know how wide the gap between Luffy & Zoro/Sanji has gotten? Even if the gap widens later on in the series, we are only talking about where they stand currently. Nothing to do with Luffy's potential. Nothing to do with how the gap is going to widen in the future, etc. etc. 

You may be overrating Current Luffy. 



> Vista is a formidable opponent, no one is taking that away from him, but to claim that he can beat Zoro and Luffy in a fight as a fact, is a little bit too much for me. He might pull off a win, who knows, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to team Luffy.



When did I say he would beat them as a matter of fact? Please don't put words into my mouth, for I merely made a deposit of my opinion. On the other hand, you claimed that it is a fact that the gap between Luffy and the other two powerhouses of his crew will keep widening and widening. 

Lionel Messi:



> Vista's haki level ? What level is that ? His only haki feat was to failing to hurt Akainu . (so is Marco but Marco proved his haki against other Admirals).



and Vista proved his haki in addition to his swordsmanship, by duelling with Mihawk. You simply can't not be an excellent master of haki user if your able to stall a top tier like Mihawk. 

Also, Vista is only slightly behind Jozu, which means that their haki is on a similar level. Vista also has to make up for the fact that he has no devil fruit powers. So to say that Luffy's haki is on the same level as Vista's, is like saying that Luffy's haki mastery is close to Jozu's, which you may want to believe.

But I don't. 



> So what r we supposed to to do other then speculation when none of the M3 had an all out fight ?



There's a difference in reaching far and wide with speculation, and actually being closer at power estimation, based on reasonable arguments. People make it seem as if there is some amazingly hyped ceiling the M3 can reach just because they haven't gone all out.


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

Goddamit man


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## Lmao (Jan 5, 2014)

Luffy vs Dolfamingo will determine the new era of battledome discussions, not much will change if they double team him but should the gods allow Luffy to legitimately defeat him 1vs1 chaos will ensue. Prepare yourselves for Luffy vs Jozu/Marco threads and unprecedented Zolo wank on a daily basis


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## trance (Jan 5, 2014)

Can go either way.


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## Shinthia (Jan 5, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> . Lionel Messi:
> 
> and Vista proved his haki in addition to his swordsmanship, by duelling with Mihawk. You simply can't not be an excellent master of haki user if your able to stall a top tier like Mihawk.



Ur haki does not need to be a god tier to clash with a casual Mihawk who was not using haki himself (example: buggy). This is the same Mihawk who could not injure Luffy . Thats how serious Mihawk was.
Vista has one haki feat in the whole manga and he failed to legitimately  hurt Akainu.So, its not at all illogical to think that someone who trained with Ray can have the same level of haki as a man with that kind of haki feat.



> Also, *Vista is only slightly behind Jozu*, which means that their haki is on a similar level. Vista also has to make up for the fact that he has no devil fruit powers. So to say that Luffy's haki is on the same level as Vista's, is like saying that Luffy's haki mastery is close to Jozu's, which you may want to believe.
> But I don't.


Why r u bringing Jozu in this debate. For all we know the gap between Jozu & Vista could be noticeably big. 
But ,u r first assuming that the gap between Jozu and Vista is very small and based on that u r saying there haki should be same level. Its like saying that Vista is close to Jozu , Jozu is close to Marco ,Marco is close to Kizaru, Kizaru is close to Akainu and Akainu is close to WB. Which means Vistas haki is on the same level with Jozu,Marco,Kizaru,Akainu and WB.



> There's a difference in reaching far and wide with speculation, and actually being closer at power estimation, based on reasonable arguments. People make it seem as if there is some amazingly hyped ceiling the M3 can reach just because they haven't gone all out.



SHs r famous for making the almost impossible thing, possible. When ever an arc villain go all out , first thing they do is  get defeated. Remember Rob Lucci. He casually one shooted Luffy at W7 but just in few chapter Luffy defeated him. Thats how One Piece work. At the end of an arc the mighty bad guy ,no matter how mighty he/she is get beaten by Luffy.


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

> Ur haki does not need to be a god tier to clash with a casual Mihawk who was not using haki himself (example: buggy). This is the same Mihawk who could not injure Luffy . Thats how serious Mihawk was.



No one said god tier. Stop exaggerating.

And Mihawk can switch from not using haki when pursuing Luffy and cutting Buggy, to using haki against Vista. There is an insurmountable chasm of difference in dealing with Pre TS Luffy & Buggy, neither of which even possess haki, to a veteran Yonko Commander of the New World who is also WB's strongest swordsman. 

Haki is a basic fundamental and an essential requirement of the lowest criteria within the New World. To think that two veterans like Vista & Mihawk wouldn't use haki in a duel where Mihawk commended his opponent is what is truly uncharacteristic.



> Vista has one haki feat in the whole manga and he failed to legitimately  hurt Akainu.



Vista & Marco both failed and there are reasonable arguments to suggest why they could not hurt him at the time. Whereas they both failed to inflict damage on one Admiral level fighter on one occasion, they both managed to clash with, and stall Admiral level fighters on other occasions. 



> So, its not at all illogical to think that someone who trained with Ray can have the same level of haki as a man with that kind of haki feat.



Except Luffy learned the basics, and you are obviously underestimating VIsta if you think that the pinnacle of his haki mastery and his level of CoA is solely determined on one panel because he didn't cut through Akainu, which Marco didn't either. In other words, it is most likely that they failed not because the two of them are not strong enough or skilled enough to hurt Akainu, but because their haki at that time, was not as effective in output as it was in the early stages of the war. Not a fact, but the more likely alternative explanation. 

In other words, don't be a feats zombie. 



> Why r u bringing Jozu in this debate. *For all we know*, the gap between Jozu & Vista could be noticeably big.



that's cute




> But ,u r first assuming that the gap between Jozu and Vista is very small and based on that u r saying there haki should be same level. Its like saying that Vista is close to Jozu , Jozu is close to Marco ,Marco is close to Kizaru, Kizaru is close to Akainu and Akainu is close to WB. Which means Vistas haki is on the same level with Jozu,Marco,Kizaru,Akainu and WB.



lol what? Where are you getting off to listing all these characters? I think this is just one of your trap questions to try to make your opposition look stupid. 

There are obviously gaps between each character, but my point is that Jozu should not be very far from Vista, and when Haki is not only an essential in the New World, but a very important part of combat and an essential to the attributes of the Commanders to a Yonko crew, how is it illogical to assume that Jozu's haki is much greater than Vista's, if they shouldn't be that far apart to begin with? Haki proficiency isn't one of those individually exclusive matchup abilities, nor is it an individual specialty altogether separate from people of a similar level(unless we are dividing it into the 3 forms of haki), so the point is that these guys should be well rounded to begin with, even if they have a distinction in strength.



> SHs r famous for making the almost impossible thing, possible. When ever and arc villain go all out , first thing they do is  get defeated. Remember Rob Lucci. He casually one shooted Luffy at W7 but just in few chapter Luffy defeated him. Thats how One Piece work. At the end of an arc the mighty bad guy ,no matter how mighty he/she is get beaten by Luffy.



First of all, I'm pretty sure Rob Lucci didn't literally one shot him, and second of all, I'm also pretty sure that the amount of time between the Galley La Company Conspiracy and the conclusion to Enies Lobby was long enough to be more than just, "a few chapters", so once again, a bit of an exaggeration on your part. 

I think to say that, that is how the series works, kinda oversimplifies things. In most of Luffy's big arc villain fights before the timeskip, alot of his fights and victories involve alot of luck as others have already brought up, as well as many external factors, help, some measure of CIS, and etc. It doesn't necessarily mean Luffy was stronger than them. It is not that linear, and that kind of argument based on that pattern has not much bearing in a battledome thread. We're not talking about whether or not Luffy can beat Doflamingo in this arc like he does with all those factors. We're assessing pure strength and his power, and all those other plot elements are absent here. 

Also, as RG said, whereas those arc villains were hyped through red herrings, and might I add, vague pedestals, Doflamingo actually has feats, and isn't just some new arc villain who entered the mix a saga ago.


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## Unclear Justice (Jan 5, 2014)

Is it odd that whenever I think about Vista?s powerlevel my main focus lies on the hype of him being Whitebeard?s best swordsman and his fight against Mihawk in MF has close to no meaning? 

Because in all honesty scaling from the latter seems wrong to me seeing how Mihawk?s power fluctuated in MF and actually being WB?s best swordsman is enough for me to give him the benefit of doubt here.


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

If his title and claim to fame convinces you more than his spar with Mihawk, that is completely fine.


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## MrWano (Jan 5, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Is it odd that whenever I think about Vista?s powerlevel my main focus lies on the hype of him being Whitebeard?s best swordsman and his fight against Mihawk in MF has close to no meaning?
> 
> Because in all honesty scaling from the latter seems wrong to me seeing how Mihawk?s power fluctuated in MF and actually being WB?s best swordsman is enough for me to give him the benefit of doubt here.



No, it's not odd. Thinking about it, it's actually a reasonable position to take. But the more prolonged encounters/fights in the war, are the ones I tend to take into account when trying to estimate the strength of a character. Compare it to Croc blocking Mihawk, for example. To me that means close to nothing. 



Lmao said:


> Luffy vs Dolfamingo will determine the new era of battledome discussions, not much will change if they double team him but should the gods allow Luffy to legitimately defeat him 1vs1 chaos will ensue. Prepare yourselves for Luffy vs Jozu/Marco threads and unprecedented Zolo wank on a daily basis



Luffy beating Doffy in a clear cut fight would be absolutely glorious. So much chaos, butt hurt and delicious tears everywhere. Not that it will happen.


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

> The classic, "We haven't seen Luffy, Zoro, Sanji go all out yet", argument, right?
> 
> We know that Zoro couldn't even match up to a new Admiral, and even if you want to make the argument that Zoro's showing was more impressive than it actually is, Zoro isn't much stronger than Sanji, and we know that Sanji was even with Vergo until he lost the upper hand, so we can assume that while Zoro is stronger than Sanji, but not by much, he is still roughly in the ballpark of the stronger Vice Admirals.
> 
> ...



Of course I'll use that in my argument. We have a clearer picture of where Vista stands than where Luffy and Zoro. I can elaborate about that, but I'm sure you don't need an explanation for what I just said. 

Here where we disagree. Zoro IS stronger than Sanji and it's not by little. I elaborated about that in another thread, but I'll do it shortly in here. Zoro is a fighter who practiced his field of work with the best man out there. While Sanji is a fighter also, but he did not train two straight years for fighting purposes because we know that he was also learning about the Okama cooking style and what not. It's very natural for Zoro and Luffy to widen the gap between them and Sanji, and that's what they did.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree that story wise, Zoro shouldn't be stronger than Vista, but do we know by how much is he we weaker? My opinion is, not that much. I don't believe that Vista can beat an abnormal human like Zoro with anything less than lower high difficulty or up mid difficulty if Vista happened to be much stronger than I thought he is. Add Luffy to the equation, another abnormal human being and you have a team that can beat him fair and square. 

Swordsmen are usually the 2nd strongest member of a crew or an organization. We've seen that multiple times. Vista IS NOT the 2nd strongest member of the WB's, so Zoro being on his level that fast will not surprise me at all. Zoro's performance against Fuji was damn impressive. He was not completely overwhelmed against him. He was caught off guard by the admiral, managed to slip out of his grasp and counter attack in a very tight, hard position. Sanji on the other hand was completely overwhelmed by a much weaker opponent (Hax or not),  and he was helpless against him. You still believe Zoro and Sanji are more or less equal? and by that I mean Zoro being stronger by a small margin?



> The bolded is something we won't know until the end of this arc.


That is true. But if it does happen, then that only means that I've seen it coming due to my confidence in Luffy's strength, something you lack a lot .And it will only prove that my judgement in this thread is right. Now, if it doesn't happen, I'll admit that I'm wrong, but I'll also bring up the fact that Doflamingo should be stronger than Vista, and not by a small margin as you think.



> What? Is it even being questioned that Vista's haki is better than Luffy's? While Rayleigh did train Luffy in haki, you have to remember that he trained him in the basics of haki.
> 
> Vista has been on the WSM's ship for over 24 years, if not more. He was able to clash with Mihawk, and you don't do that without being very proficient in haki. Do you think that a DF-less Luffy can clash with a sword-less Mihawk in a pure clash of haki? Do you think that Luffy's haki is good enough to clash with the haki of Yonko class fighters? I do not think so.



Yes, I do question it. It is true that Rayleigh said he trained Luffy the basics, but he left him a lone for 8 months if my memory serves me right to train by himself. And Like I pointed out before, what takes normal people years to learn, Luffy does it in a matter of months, and that's what separates him from the rest of the world. 

Mihawk hasn't been using Haki during MF at all, proven by Buggy.It is true that scene was a bit of a gag scene, but Oda wouldn't not do something like that without some deep thinking about it. I don't see why Mihawk would suddenly use Haki against Vista, but not against everyone else. It is true that Vista is much stronger than anyone else Mihawk has faced at MF, but we have no proof that Mihawk even bothered using Haki while we know that Vista did. 

With that being said, Vista was able to clash with Mihawk who wasn't even using Haki, until proven otherwise.  The whole Mihawk Vista thing is the argument I wanted use to be honest, the one below is. 

I would also like to remind you that mastering Haki is not an easy thing to do. Vista might have reached a certain level, but he shouldn't go any higher because he's not that special, and that's a fact. I would also like to remind you that Luffy just beat a veteran who fought Garp in his Prime, or at least close to being in his prime. And Luffy overpowered that veteran's Haki by beating him and changing the shape of his head with that Haki punch. 



> This is all so intangible and lofty. How can you even quantify any of his potential in relation to how strong he is compared to people like Vista, at the moment? I feel like your just addressing his potential and putting it out there. You might as well make the same argument every time.
> 
> No one is questioning his potential here, but his future potential isn't a solid argument by any means to support his current strength. How do you know that he has reached Vista's level of strength at the current moment based on his potential?
> 
> ...



I don't get it, potential is a huge factor in this argument. If we were talking about other, non-significant characters, then yes, the whole potential thing shouldn't be addressed at all. But Luffy is the main character, and we have not see him in two years because of his training. By going with what we know about his potential, and he will be the future Pirate King. He should'v grown enormously in strength. Because of his potential, we can assume such things. We can't say Buggy has jumped levels and levels in two years of training, because he does not have the same potential as Luffy. 

If I am not mistaken, those vague comments were all addressed to Luffy and Zoro only. Or perhaps they were highlighted more. I am not trying to downplay Sanji at all, but like I said; I do believe that both Luffy and Zoro widened the gap between them and Sanji. Will Sanji catch up at one point? sure, but both Luffy and Zoro will widen the gap again. 



> A fact? Only a few paragraphs above did you claim that we haven't even seen the M3 go all out, so how is it a fact by any means that you already seem to know how wide the gap between Luffy & Zoro/Sanji has gotten? Even if the gap widens later on in the series, we are only talking about where they stand currently. Nothing to do with Luffy's potential. Nothing to do with how the gap is going to widen in the future, etc. etc.
> 
> You may be overrating Current Luffy.



It is true that we have not seen them go all out yet, but with what we have; we can at least have a clear picture on where these three stand comparing to each other. It's a matter of perspective, where do you , and where do I see Sanji comparing to them. With what I've seen so far, I am convinced that they have widened the gap.

I am not overrating Luffy, no offense, but I've seen your posts about the SNs as a whole. Let me tell you this my friend, you will be shocked as hell once they start making their moves. We'll see how strong Luffy is once everything with Doflamingo is cleared. I am not going to make a judgement in their first encounter, because both you and I know how Oda does things. 



> When did I say he would beat them as a matter of fact? Please don't put words into my mouth, for I merely made a deposit of my opinion. On the other hand, you claimed that it is a fact that the gap between Luffy and the other two powerhouses of his crew will keep widening and widening.



Not sure if I have stated it as a fact or implied it to be, but that's just my opinion. To each his own perspective and that's why writers in general never give us clear answers. And Sorry for saying something you haven't said.


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

> Of course I'll use that in my argument. We have a clearer picture of where Vista stands than where Luffy and Zoro. I can elaborate about that, but I'm sure you don't need an explanation for what I just said.



It doesn't mean that what they'd be capable of what he's capable of just because of we don't know what their exact ceiling is. 



> Here where we disagree. Zoro IS stronger than Sanji and it's not by little. I elaborated about that in another thread, but I'll do it shortly in here. Zoro is a fighter who practiced his field of work with the best man out there. While Sanji is a fighter also, but he did not train two straight years for fighting purposes because we know that he was also learning about the Okama cooking style and what not. It's very natural for Zoro and Luffy to widen the gap between them and Sanji, *and that's what they did*.




bolded: you don't know that

What difficulty do you think Zoro could take out Sanji with currently? If it is high difficulty, they are still of a similar level. 

The M3 have always been on par with each other.

Instead of using what little we know of their training, let's use the most simplistic of powerscaling and the available feats after the timeskip to support why Zoro isn't much,  much stronger than Sanji. 

-The most obvious one first, being Sanji is still a part of the M3
-Sanji was portrayed as one of the 3 powerhouses to beat up the Kraken alongside Luffy & Zoro
-Sanji was shown to do comparable damage to Wadatsumi as Jinbe did.
-Sanji fought evenly with Vergo until Vergo gained a slight upperhand, showing that they are comparable in strength. Smoker & Vergo fought evenly until Smoker took the dive, showing that they were also comparable in strength. This means that Sanji is of similar power to Smoker. Now this branches off into two directions:

1. Smoker is the rival of Luffy constantly foreshadowed to fight him in the future while never being too far. Thus, he has to be on par with Luffy.  

2. Smoker fought Law, was dominant in their CQC exchange, and gave Law a tough fight, before ultimately falling, showing that he could contend with Law on a similar playing field. Law is Luffy's rival and around his strength. Zoro is weaker than Luffy & Law, and stronger than Sanji. So by this equation, Sanji can still fight on par with Zoro, and is comparable in strength to him, though not extremely close. The gap hasn't widened, and even if it did, you have not given any substantial reasons to show why you think or know it has. 



> Don't get me wrong, I do agree that story wise, Zoro shouldn't be stronger than Vista, but do we know by how much is he we weaker? My opinion is, not that much. I don't believe that Vista can beat an abnormal human like Zoro with anything less than lower high difficulty or up mid difficulty if Vista happened to be much stronger than I thought he is. Add Luffy to the equation, another abnormal human being and you have a team that can beat him fair and square.



I don't find anything too disagreeable here, except for the last sentence. 




> Swordsmen are usually the 2nd strongest member of a crew or an organization. We've seen that multiple times. Vista IS NOT the 2nd strongest member of the WB's, so Zoro being on his level that fast will not surprise me at all.



What? How does Vista not being the first mate or 2nd strongest of the WBs translate to Zoro possibly being on his level? The two are altogether separate from each other and have no bearing or relation. 

Just because Vista isn't the second strongest of the WBs, doesn't mean that Zoro is currently as strong as the 3rd strongest or 4th strongest member either(I am counting WB as the 1st strongest here). Heck, I don't even think that Zoro is as strong as the 5th strongest member of the WB Pirates before the timeskip, who I assume is Ace, and this is all excluding Teach of course. 



> Zoro's performance against Fuji was damn impressive. He was not completely overwhelmed against him. He was caught off guard by the admiral, managed to slip out of his grasp and counter attack in a very tight, hard position.



I think you are misrepresenting things. Even if Zoro didn't know who Fujitora was at first when he came to clash with him and only realised after the fact, he was still aware of Issho's level of power, as you can see the dark shadows on Zoro's face, sweating, gritting teeth, and the crushed sunglasses. This is all before Fujitora effortlessly sends him down bleeding into a void under the earth with a rather small gravity field, nothing compared to his *casual* meteors on Green Bit, which were leaps and bounds more impressive in terms of AoE. I'd hate to see what Fujitora, would do to Zoro if he were to use his strongest technique, or if he were to go all out. The only thing the scene told us, was that Fujitora, a new Admiral, was not able to one-shot Zoro, and that Zoro was able to survive one attack by an Admiral. 



> Sanji on the other hand was completely overwhelmed by a much weaker opponent (Hax or not),  and he was helpless against him. You still believe Zoro and Sanji are more or less equal? and by that I mean Zoro being stronger by a small margin?



I never said they were more or less equal. But I I definitely call bs on the notion that Zoro can mid-low diff Sanji. 

I also believe you are reading into the Fujitora encounter a bit too much to support Zoro. 




> That is true. But if it does happen, then that only means that I've seen it coming due to my confidence in Luffy's strength, something you lack a lot .And it will only prove that my judgement in this thread is right. Now, if it doesn't happen, I'll admit that I'm wrong, but I'll also bring up the fact that Doflamingo should be stronger than Vista, and not by a small margin as you think.



Why does your confidence in something based on pure conjecture matter here though? This isn't a prediction thread in the Telegrams. This is a BD thread where we gauge the strength of characters seen and presented so far, and estimate the probability of one beating the other. How strong you want Luffy to be has no relevance here.




> Yes, I do question it. It is true that Rayleigh said he trained Luffy the basics, but he left him a lone for 8 months if my memory serves me right to train by himself. And Like I pointed out before, what takes normal people years to learn, Luffy does it in a matter of months, and that's what separates him from the rest of the world.



Believe what you want. 




> Mihawk hasn't been using Haki during MF at all, proven by Buggy.It is true that scene was a bit of a gag scene, but Oda wouldn't not do something like that without some deep thinking about it. I don't see why Mihawk would suddenly use Haki against Vista, but not against everyone else. It is true that Vista is much stronger than anyone else Mihawk has faced at MF, but we have no proof that Mihawk even bothered using Haki while we know that Vista did.



What? This is one of the most blatant examples of downplay I've seen in a while. It's not even subtle in the least. You don't see why Mihawk would "suddenly" use haki against Vista, but not against everyone else? really? You don't see why Mihawk would switch into using haki on a Yonko Commander who is also a veteran of the New World, where as I repeat, haki is a basic fundamental in, from not using it against scrubs like Pre TS Luffy and an East Blue Pirate like Buggy, neither of which even have haki? Why would he treat Vista as the same as Buggy or Luffy? Vista was outright the first person whose abilities were complimented by Mihawk.

If your comparing Mihawk's treatment of Luffy & Buggy to Vista, then we also have no visual or physical proof that Mihawk even imbued haki when he sent his slash to Whitebeard. We also have no proof that Aokiji & Akainu needed haki to fight Whitebeard, while we know for a fact that WB needed it to strike the Logias. 

And there will never be proof from Marineford as far as haki goes. Not in the visual or physical form anyways, because Oda had only started highlighting haki to the readers in a distinguishable way after the timeskip. 

We've seen logias like Smoker imbue his fists in black haki to strike Vergo, who isn't even a Logia. Haki is just that essential in the New World, that even if Mihawk is much stronger than Vista, it doesn't mean he deactivates his haki completely when fighting him, whereas, he doesn't need haki to cut Luffy & Buggy because:

1. They are scrubs who didn't even have haki and were flies in the war

and 

2. As a sword, Kokuto yoru would be a natural weakness for Luffy's rubber body, so Mihawk doesn't need to use haki in the first place. As for Buggy, he just happened to get in the way of Mihawk's attack against Luffy, so that is self explanatory.


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

> With that being said, Vista was able to clash with Mihawk *who wasn't even using Haki, until proven otherwise*.  The whole Mihawk Vista thing is the argument I wanted use to be honest, the one below is.



it should be the opposite actually. As I've told other people, stop being feats zombies, and interpret things with your own comprehension of logic, common sense, portrayal, and an understanding of how in-world mechanics are used, and under what likely circumstances would they be used in. 





> I would also like to remind you that mastering Haki is not an easy thing to do. Vista might have reached a certain level, but he shouldn't go any higher because he's not that special, and that's a fact.



What are you talking about? 

Of course Vista has mastered his Haki, as far as his potential goes. 

"because he shouldn't go any higher because he's not that special".

While I agree with you that he is now at his prime, "he's not that special" is underestimation. You keep underestimating the strongest swordsman of the WSM's crew.

If fodder like Tashigi can use haki, and if it is a basic fundamental in the New World, you can bet that a Yonko Commander of over 2 decades has a good mastery of it. 




> I would also like to remind you that Luffy just beat a veteran who fought Garp in his Prime, or at least close to being in his prime. And Luffy overpowered that veteran's Haki by beating him and changing the shape of his head with that Haki punch.



That is a pointless reminder, because DCJ means little as a hype tool in the grand scheme of things. The DCJ of the Corrida Coliseum was past his prime, inactive for a very long time, and leaps and bounds apart from the DCJ who split a continent and fought a younger Garp. 

The head which Luffy reshaped is also a far cry from the head Garp had to crush. In fact, "far cry" would be an understatement.




> I don't get it, potential is a huge factor in this argument. If we were talking about other, non-significant characters, then yes, the whole potential thing shouldn't be addressed at all. But Luffy is the main character, and we have not see him in two years because of his training. By going with what we know about his potential, and he will be the future Pirate King. He should'v grown enormously in strength. Because of his potential, we can assume such things. We can't say Buggy has jumped levels and levels in two years of training, because he does not have the same potential as Luffy.



What I don't understand is how you can use it to arrive at the conclusion that he may be as strong as Vista now. That is what I do not understand.

What methods of quantification did you use to arrive to such a conclusion? If you are simply basing this off of the fact that Luffy became stronger after the timeskip by an unknown amount, then that is very faulty. That doesn't tell us how much stronger he's become, let alone does it allow you to conclude or assume that he has already reached Vista. That only tells us that he has gotten stronger by an, as of yet, unknown quantity. 

Why do people keep assuming that Luffy may reach a very _particular_ point in strength just because he hasn't gone all out? 

Why is potential an argument, when it tells us nothing precise about how strong he is now? 

It is not an argument. It is looking too far in the distance.



> If I am not mistaken, those vague comments were all addressed to Luffy and Zoro only. Or perhaps they were highlighted more. I am not trying to downplay Sanji at all, but like I said;* I do believe that both Luffy and Zoro widened the gap between them and Sanji. Will Sanji catch up at one point? sure, but both Luffy and Zoro will widen the gap again.*



I think you might be jumping to one too many conclusions with the last couple of sentences.

But who they were addressed to, matters not, because those vague comments and statements tell us zero about _how much they have become stronger by._ They simply tell us the obvious fact that they have become stronger, which we already know, as the readers. It's a method of narrative to show the reaction of these characters, to the return of the SHs and their progress. Sure, it is a good bit of hype, but it tells us nothing accurate, nor conclusive. 




> It is true that we have not seen them go all out yet, but with what we have; we can at least have a clear picture on where these three stand comparing to each other. It's a matter of perspective, where do you , and where do I see Sanji comparing to them. With what I've seen so far, I am convinced that they have widened the gap.



I am not convinced, and I have already given reasons why. Even if they have widened the gap, I do not at all believe it was by much at all. 



> I am not overrating Luffy, no offense, but I've seen your posts about the SNs as a whole. Let me tell you this my friend, you will be shocked as hell once they start making their moves. We'll see how strong Luffy is once everything with Doflamingo is cleared. I am not going to make a judgement in their first encounter, because both you and I know how Oda does things.



The thing is, you don't even know how strong the SNs are, nor do you know how they compare to the big names at the current moment, so I don't see how your making such a claim. It has no bearing here.



> Not sure if I have stated it as a fact or implied it to be, but that's just my opinion. To each his own perspective and that's why writers in general never give us clear answers. And Sorry for saying something you haven't said.



It's fine, and yes, waiting is the only answer.


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## Halcyon (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm leaning towards the duo but I don't think I'll give a definitive answer.


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## Slenderman (Jan 5, 2014)

I don't know who wins. If Luffy solos DD without a doubt they win.


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## zorokuma (Jan 5, 2014)

not saying the duo would win for sure, but they are being highly underestimated here.

if zoro could clash swords with an admiral and even push him back a little, he damn sure can clash swords with vista and maybe even give him a little fight. adding luffy makes it a damn close battle.






of course if luffy solos doffy then the duo destroys vista.....


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## Harard (Jan 5, 2014)

They're not in Vista's league yet. Vista wins this.


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## Lawliet (Jan 6, 2014)

> It doesn't mean that what they'd be capable of what he's capable of just because of we don't know what their exact ceiling is.


That's not what I meant, what I mean is; even though they still haven't gone all out yet, their feats are pretty impressive. If they go all out? Why can't they match or at least get close to someone like Vista.



> bolded: you don't know that
> 
> What difficulty do you think Zoro could take out Sanji with currently? If it is high difficulty, they are still of a similar level.
> 
> ...



Well, sorry if I may sounded like I'm stating facts in there, but that's just my opinion.

I want you to read this since I kinda elaborated a little bit in there.


To what difficulty would Sanji lose to Zoro? I don't have an answer that I'm confident about, but I wouldn't give the fight anything higher than end of mid difficulty right now, MAYBE the lower of high difficulty. This goes both to Luffy and Zoro of course. Again, Don't get me wrong, I am not downplaying Sanji in any means. It's just from my own perspective, he hasn't been catching up to Luffy and Zoro, him commenting on Rayleigh training Luffy proves my point IN A WAY , not completely. It would be absurd for Sanji to catch up with Luffy and Zoro after the time skip, think about it logically, story wise. Both Luffy and Zoro train with two individual legends specifically for fighting purposes. While Sanji trains with Okamas mainly for the cooking recipes and some fighting in the process. There's no way he can catch up to them when two legends have trained them, while he's been training with Okamas, that would mean his potential is much higher than theirs for being able to catch up to them without even being , first a fighter. 2nd training for fighting purposes the whole two years. 



> What? How does Vista not being the first mate or 2nd strongest of the WBs translate to Zoro possibly being on his level? The two are altogether separate from each other and have no bearing or relation.
> 
> Just because Vista isn't the second strongest of the WBs, doesn't mean that Zoro is currently as strong as the 3rd strongest or 4th strongest member either(I am counting WB as the 1st strongest here). Heck, I don't even think that Zoro is as strong as the 5th strongest member of the WB Pirates before the timeskip, who I assume is Ace, and this is all excluding Teach of course.



They do have a lot of relation if you think about it from another perspective, which you did. If Vista happened to be the 2nd strongest on the WB's, and Zoro happened to be on that level right now, then yeah; the whole story wise applies in here because Zoro shouldn't be as strong as the 2nd fighter of a yonkou crew. 

But, if that one swordsman is not the strongest, but the 4th, then there's nothing wrong in Zoro jumping to that level so fast. Actually, to say the likes of Luffy and Zoro can't beat the 4th strongest member of a yonkou crew is also a little bit too much for me. They are challenging the Yonkou and Doflamingo who by himself, could be the 1st strongest of a yonkou crew if not, the 2nd. 

Our opinions about this whole thing will change or will be proven when we're done with the whole Doflamingo matter. So for now, we can only debate and hope for he best. 



> I think you are misrepresenting things. Even if Zoro didn't know who Fujitora was at first when he came to clash with him and only realised after the fact, he was still aware of Issho's level of power, as you can see the dark shadows on Zoro's face, sweating, gritting teeth, and the crushed sunglasses. This is all before Fujitora effortlessly sends him down bleeding into a void under the earth with a rather small gravity field, nothing compared to his casual meteors on Green Bit, which were leaps and bounds more impressive in terms of AoE. I'd hate to see what Fujitora, would do to Zoro if he were to use his strongest technique, or if he were to go all out. The only thing the scene told us, was that Fujitora, a new Admiral, was not able to one-shot Zoro, and that Zoro was able to survive one attack by an Admiral.



No, that's not the only thing that scene told us. That scene told us that Zoro is not a fodder to admirals anymore. Issho caught Zoro off guard, that's first. Zoro was going for Doflamingo free Law from his hands and all of a sudden Fuji jumps in between and attacks Zoro. The glasses cracking and the whole teeth thing happened because Fuji was using his devil fruit powers from the very beginning. He did not hold back at all.  His devil fruit powers what broke Zoro's sunglasses, Fuji obviously increased his gravity powers once he saw that he could not pin Zoro down like he did with Law back at Green bit without destroying the ground they're standing on.

That was not a casual field of gravity, just because it doesn't have a huge radius, doesn't mean it's  not a very powerful attack.The meteors Fuji pulled back at Greenbit were impressive, that's true. But would Zoro have any trouble cutting a rock like that? Hell no lol, he'd probably cut it the same way Law did. That was an AOE attack, while the one he performed on Zoro is more like a 1 vs 1 attack, more effective.


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## Lawliet (Jan 6, 2014)

> Why does your confidence in something based on pure conjecture matter here though? This isn't a prediction thread in the Telegrams. This is a BD thread where we gauge the strength of characters seen and presented so far, and estimate the probability of one beating the other. How strong you want Luffy to be has no relevance here.



It wouldn't have a lot of relevance if we knew exactly where Luffy stands in power. But we don't. Thus, I am predicting how strong he is with the little feats I have about him, and the things I see happening in the future. 



> Mihawk vs Vista



Like I said, that wasn't really the argument I wanted to use. i was just throwing away some thoughts randomly, don't take that part seriously. 



> it should be the opposite actually. As I've told other people, stop being feats zombies, and interpret things with your own comprehension of logic, common sense, portrayal, and an understanding of how in-world mechanics are used, and under what likely circumstances would they be used in.


Oh trust me I always do that. I've told people to do that as well. Like I said, don't take my whole Mihawk vs Vista thing seriously, I was just giving random thoughts. And I think you rely on feats more than you think.



> If fodder like Tashigi can use haki, and if it is a basic fundamental in the New World, you can bet that a Yonko Commander of over 2 decades has a good mastery of it.



Point taken.



> That is a pointless reminder, because DCJ means little as a hype tool in the grand scheme of things. The DCJ of the Corrida Coliseum was past his prime, inactive for a very long time, and leaps and bounds apart from the DCJ who split a continent and fought a younger Garp.
> 
> The head which Luffy reshaped is also a far cry from the head Garp had to crush. In fact, "far cry" would be an understatement.



If I am not mistaken, he's still a part of the navy he used to lead. Otherwise, they wouldn't send him right here and right now to the tournament to win the fruit. Meaning, he's not as inactive as you think. 

And, Rayleigh has been inactive for years and years, and he was still able to match an admiral. I am not comparing that punching bag to Rayleigh, but I am just trying to say being out of shape doesn't mean as  much in the One Piece world if you had great strength to begin with. 

Luffy still overpowered his Haki with his own, whether he was a hype tool or not. If we're going to use the hype tool argument, then why shouldn't Mihawk be nothing but a hype tool for Vista during the war since he's the perfect person for that job? Meaning Vista is not as strong as you think since you kinda applied that logic to Chinjao (whether he was past his prime or not).




> What I don't understand is how you can use it to arrive at the conclusion that he may be as strong as Vista now. That is what I do not understand.
> 
> What methods of quantification did you use to arrive to such a conclusion? If you are simply basing this off of the fact that Luffy became stronger after the timeskip by an unknown amount, then that is very faulty. That doesn't tell us how much stronger he's become, let alone does it allow you to conclude or assume that he has already reached Vista. That only tells us that he has gotten stronger by an, as of yet, unknown quantity.
> 
> ...



Well, I'll admit that since he hasn't gone all out yet, I'm only hoping for him to be THAT strong. BUT, there are other factors to look at. Luffy has already challenged one of the yonkou to a fight (Big Mom) and he's starting a war very soon with another yonkou (Kaidou). I don't see Oda just drifting away from the whole yonkou things and focusing on other stuff later on. Which means Luffy will be fighting them very soon (One Piece time).

With that being said, If Luffy is not even on Vista's level, how would he be able to fight the yonkou without being completely overwhelmed? How would he jump from being below Vista to a level where he can match a yonkou in strength? It is true that we don't know how Oda is going to do things in the future, will their first yonkou go down in a 1 vs 1 fight, how things will be played. But since Luffy has always been taken fights 1 vs 1 (with some exceptions), it's safe to assume that Luffy will not settle down unless he fights a yonkou 1 vs 1 . I am all open to other options of course.



> I am not convinced, and I have already given reasons why. Even if they have widened the gap, I do not at all believe it was by much at all.



I talked about that above. 



> The thing is, you don't even know how strong the SNs are, nor do you know how they compare to the big names at the current moment, so I don't see how your making such a claim. It has no bearing here.



True, but since we both agree that we don't need to be zombie feats, we can speculate things on our own. Luffy has already beaten big names like Chinjao, whether you think of him much or not, he's still a big name in the New World who has Cotc as well. The top of the SNs will be a lot stronger than you think, especially Kidd who should blow our minds the next time we see him.


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## Shinthia (Jan 6, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> No one said god tier. Stop exaggerating.
> 
> And Mihawk can switch from not using haki when pursuing Luffy and cutting Buggy, to using haki against Vista. There is an insurmountable chasm of difference in dealing with Pre TS Luffy & Buggy, neither of which even possess haki, to a veteran Yonko Commander of the New World who is also WB's strongest swordsman.
> Haki is a basic fundamental and an essential requirement of the lowest criteria within the New World. To think that two veterans like Vista & Mihawk wouldn't use haki in a duel where Mihawk commended his opponent is what is truly uncharacteristic.
> ...


Mihawk's mind set was the same as it was always . It did not change when Vista start fighting him (hell he even looked at Luffy for few moments). So why would i assume Mihawk changed his mind and start using haki when the evidence is telling me otherwise. Because he is Vista ? Thats not a reason.

Vista's only haki feat was failing to legitimately hurt Akainu while for Marco it was not. Marco has feats that shows that his haki is strong enough to hurt/hit an Admiral. Just because Vista evenly fought a non-serious Mihawk does not mean all of a sudden we forget about his fail haki part & accept that his haki level is same as Jozu.




> lol what? Where are you getting off to listing all these characters? I think this is just one of your trap questions to try to make your opposition look stupid.



i am jut using ur logic. U said "Jozu & Vista is close to each other , that mean they have same level of haki" . Applying that logic---- Vista is close to Jozu,Jozu to Marco,Marco to Kizaru,Kizaru to Akainu and Akainu to WB. They should not be too far from one another and by ur logic their haki level should be the same.




> First of all, I'm pretty sure Rob Lucci didn't literally one shot him, and second of all, I'm also pretty sure that the amount of time between the Galley La Company Conspiracy and the conclusion to Enies Lobby was long enough to be more than just, "a few chapters", so once again, a bit of an exaggeration on your part.



U get what i meant. Lucci was out of Luffy's league at W7 and  in a very short manga time (does not matter how many chapter) Luffy beat him in 1 vs 1. 





> I think to say that, that is how the series works, kinda oversimplifies things. In most of Luffy's big arc villain fights before the timeskip, alot of his fights and victories involve alot of luck as others have already brought up, as well as many external factors, help, some measure of CIS, and etc. It doesn't necessarily mean Luffy was stronger than them. It is not that linear, and that kind of argument based on that pattern has not much bearing in a battledome thread. We're not talking about whether or not Luffy can beat Doflamingo in this arc like he does with all those factors. We're assessing pure strength and his power, and all those other plot elements are absent here.
> Also, as RG said, whereas those arc villains were hyped through red herrings, and might I add, vague pedestals, Doflamingo actually has feats, and isn't just some new arc villain who entered the mix a saga ago.



Like i said M3 did not had an all out fight and mostly we have to predict/speculate. Like i said b4 (u may take it as a prediction too) DD wount look as invincible as he is now if Luffy/we know about his DF secret . a fucked up Law was just split sec slow to keep up with DD. So, its not impossible for Luffy (should be faster then fucked up Law in G2) to keep up with DD. And no matter how much help/CIS/PIS goes in Luffy's favor Luffy cant beat DD if he is not at least on DD's level. DD may go down in 2 vs 1 too but not more than that & i dont think if its 2 vs 1 ,the fight would go to extreme.


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## barreltheif (Jan 6, 2014)

The Vista wank is so bizarre. This is a guy who has had not even 10 lines in the manga and who would be lucky to have 10 more. Completely irrelevant character. He might be stronger than Luffy and Zoro, but stronger than them put together? No way.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 6, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> The Vista wank is so bizarre. This is a guy who has had not even 10 lines in the manga and who would be lucky to have 10 more. Completely irrelevant character. He might be stronger than Luffy and Zoro, but stronger than them put together? No way.



I don't get it either. His sole contributions to the manga have been:

- To not lose to Mihawk in a brief clash lasting a few minutes, a lot of it off-panel
- Failing to hurt Sakazuki with a free shot alongside his fellow crew mate

The catergorisation of him as a top tier has got to be the most spurious myths perputated by this place.


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## RF (Jan 6, 2014)

Nobody really thinks Vista is a top tier nowadays, though


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## Harard (Jan 6, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> The Vista wank is so bizarre. This is a guy who has had not even 10 lines in the manga and who would be lucky to have 10 more. Completely irrelevant character. He might be stronger than Luffy and Zoro, but stronger than them put together? No way.



Why is it hard to believe? You don't think it's possible for EOS Franky (or Jinbe if he joins) to be stronger than current Luffy and Zoro put together?


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## blueframe01 (Jan 6, 2014)

I think that there are a lot of people here who simply doesn't want to ever rate the SHs. Luffy is almost certainly beating Dofla in this arc, who so far has enough feats/hype to put himself above Vista. Now team him up with Zoro, a character who is shown to be always close to Luffy in strength throughout the manga and i really don't see them losing to anyone weaker than Jozo (I chose Jozu because his incredible defense would be too much for the duo to overcome)


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## Orca (Jan 6, 2014)

Harard said:


> Why is it hard to believe? You don't think it's possible for EOS Franky (or Jinbe if he joins) to be stronger than current Luffy and Zoro put together?



What does that have to do with anything barrel said?


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## Dunno (Jan 6, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> I think that there are a lot of people here who simply doesn't want to ever rate the SHs. Luffy is almost certainly beating Dofla in this arc, who so far has enough feats/hype to put himself above Vista. Now team him up with Zoro, a character who is shown to be always close to Luffy in strength throughout the manga and i really don't see them losing to anyone weaker than Jozo (I chose Jozu because his incredible defense would be too much for the duo to overcome)



Ok, I've got to clarify something; Jozu does not have a good defense. Two out of the four times we've seen him interact with strong people (1: blocking Mihawk's slash, 2: Doflamingo, 3: starting clashing with Aokiji, 4: finishing clashing with Aokiji), his so called "incredible defense" has been completely bypassed, and he's been completely helpless. Now you can blame this on Jozu being "caught off-guard" by people in plain sight, right in front of him, but the fact still remains that Jozu's defense has been breached more than that of almost everyone else in the war. Even Vista has better feats when it comes to defense. Jozu might have some additional resistance to physical attacks due to the nature of his DF, but we shouldn't confuse that with actually having a good all-around defense.


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## RF (Jan 6, 2014)

Kuzan's fruit was a good match-up against Jozu's because it largely ignores toughness. Neither Luffy or Zoro have any means of getting past Jozu's armor aside from smashing it, which should be extremely difficult for either of them.


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## Orca (Jan 6, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Ok, I've got to clarify something; Jozu does not have a good defense. Two out of the four times we've seen him interact with strong people (1: blocking Mihawk's slash, 2: Doflamingo, 3: starting clashing with Aokiji, 4: finishing clashing with Aokiji),* his so called "incredible defense" has been completely bypassed, and he's been completely helpless. *Now you can blame this on Jozu being "caught off-guard" by people in plain sight, right in front of him, but the fact still remains that Jozu's defense has been breached more than that of almost everyone else in the war. Even Vista has better feats when it comes to defense. Jozu might have some additional resistance to physical attacks due to the nature of his DF, but we shouldn't confuse that with actually having a good all-around defense.



Except the fact that Luffy and zoro do not have hax like Aokiji and Doflamingo. So blueframe's point about jozu having a good defence stands.

And please do tell me how vista has better defence feats than jozu.


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## Harard (Jan 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> What does that have to do with anything barrel said?



Maybe if you use your brain you'll see.


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## Orca (Jan 6, 2014)

Harard said:


> Maybe if you use your brain you'll see.



 Are you really this dense? Because barrel said vista's weak because of his showings and not because he's the 4th strongest.

So you're franky comparison makes no sense here.


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## Harard (Jan 6, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Fuck no ....



Fair enough.

Then there's nothing I can say to change your mind.


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## Dunno (Jan 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Except the fact that Luffy and zoro do not have hax like Aokiji and Doflamingo. So blueframe's point about jozu having a good defence stands.
> 
> And please do tell me how vista has better defence feats than jozu.



I did state than Jozu has increased durability against physical attacks. What I dislike is the notion that Jozu's defense is extraordinarily good, when it's actually not. 

Vista's feat of not being beaten by a non-serious Mihawk is much better than Jozu's feats of being beaten by Aokiji and sat on by Doflamingo.


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## Ghost (Jan 6, 2014)

Luffy and Zoro mid diff.


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## Lawliet (Jan 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Are you really this dense? Because barrel said vista's weak because of his showings and not because he's the 4th strongest.
> 
> So you're franky comparison was dumb as hell.



Do people really need to explain their posts in details for you people to understand ? Even I , who have no links to the new debate you all having understood what Harad is saying.

@Harad, you can try and change my opinion, I have an open mind unlike some people in here. But let me remind you that when you put luffy and zoro together , not in a tram, but together as in one person , you'll most likely have a solid top tier in there.


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## Harard (Jan 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Are you really this dense? Because barrel said vista's weak because of his showings and not because he's the 4th strongest.
> 
> So you're franky comparison was dumb as hell.



Says the guy who can't even spell something as simple as "your"

My Franky comparison made perfect sense. Vista was the World's Strongest Man's 3rd strongest member. EOS Franky will likely be Luffy's 3rd or 4th strongest member. So yes, the comparison made perfect sense. The other guy saying Vista's showings were poor (which is obviously false) doesn't take anything away from it.


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## Orca (Jan 6, 2014)

> Do people really need to explain their posts in details for you people to understand ? Even I , who have no links to the new debate you all having understood what Harad is saying.





I get what harad is saying. I never said otherwise.



> Says the guy who can't even spell something as simple as "your"
> 
> My Franky comparison made perfect sense. Vista was the World's Strongest Man's 3rd strongest member. EOS Franky will likely be Luffy's 3rd or 4th strongest member. So yes, the comparison made perfect sense. The other guy saying Vista's showings were poor (which is obviously false) doesn't take anything away from it.



Didn't know this forum had a grammar police.

Your point would have been valid if barrel had said that vista is weak because he is the "4th strongest". In which case a franky comparison would have made sense since as you said franky will most likely be the 4th strongest EOS. But It's painfully obvious for anyone with reading comprehension that he said vista is weak because of his showings and not based on his rank in his crew. Whether EOS franky will be equal to vista is a entirely different debate.


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## Lawliet (Jan 6, 2014)

Well, you said it does not relate to what he was replying to, but it does lol. Anyways, you two fight it out. I'm out for a while.


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## Shinthia (Jan 6, 2014)

Harard said:


> Says the guy who can't even spell something as simple as "your"
> 
> My Franky comparison made perfect sense. Vista was the World's Strongest Man's 3rd strongest member. EOS Franky will likely be Luffy's 3rd or 4th strongest member. So yes, the comparison made perfect sense. The other guy saying Vista's showings were poor (which is obviously false) doesn't take anything away from it.



The problem is EoS Franky will be a member of Pirate Kings crew in other words the best Pirate Crew there is. And SHs r special kind of crew, based on quality not quantity.
And also u have to take it into consideration that the former division 2 & 4 commander and even BB has a chance to be stronger than Vista.


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## Harard (Jan 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> I get what harad is saying. I never said otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't care about your Grammar, but it's pretty ironic when you're the one calling someone dumb and then proceed to misspell something as simple as "your" in that same sentence don't you think?

As for the rest of your argument, I'm just gonna ignore it because you're not making too much sense. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing here.


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## Orca (Jan 6, 2014)

Harard said:


> I don't care about your Grammar, but it's pretty ironic when you're the one calling someone dumb and then proceed to misspell something as simple as "your" in that same sentence don't you think?
> 
> As for the rest of your argument, I'm just gonna ignore it because you're not making too much sense. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing here.



And it's pretty ironic that you'd be pissed about me calling you dumb when it was you who commented on me not using a brain.

And as for the rest of your argument, I'd take that as ignorance.


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## Harard (Jan 6, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> The problem is EoS Franky will be a member of Pirate Kings crew in other words the best Pirate Crew there is. And SHs r special kind of crew, based on quality not quantity.
> And also u have to take it into consideration that the former division 2 & 4 commander and even BB has a chance to be stronger than Vista.



Whitebeard would have been king of the Pirates if that was his wish. Whitebeard had a big crew, but quality at the top is needed. You can only go so far with quantity.


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## Harard (Jan 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> And it's pretty ironic that you'd be pissed about me calling you dumb when it was you who commented on me not using a brain.
> 
> And as for the rest of your argument, I'd take that as ignorance.



I was pissed for pointing out the irony? 

I'm simply stating the truth. You weren't using your brain. Or maybe you only have half a brain and you simply can't think too well.


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## Shinthia (Jan 6, 2014)

Harard said:


> Whitebeard would have been king of the Pirates if that was his wish. Whitebeard had a big crew, but quality at the top is needed. You can only go so far with quantity.



well may be he could if he wanted but he did not .WB himself is special because he was said to be equal to Roger the PK but his crew is not imo. Cause , PK's first mate (Ray) in his prime was clearly (well generally accepted) stronger than WB's first mate. So u see the PK's first mate is stronger than WB's first mate. So, its more than logical to assume that Roger/Luffys 3th strongest crew member will be stronger than Vista (who may or may not be the 3th strongest original crew member).


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## Harard (Jan 6, 2014)

He will probably be stronger, but Vista will still be in the same general ballpark. 

As for Rayleigh and Marco, I do think Rayleigh was stronger of the two, but they are a lot more closer to each other then people would like to believe.


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## Mihawk (Jan 6, 2014)

Lawliet:



> That's not what I meant, what I mean is; even though they still haven't gone all out yet, their feats are pretty impressive. If they go all out? Why can't they match or at least get close to someone like Vista.



Because we have seen Luffy somewhat pushed to his boundaries already with Noah & Hody. Of course, can't say we've seen everything in his sleeve yet, due to the fact that the fight there was environmentally disadvantageous, but we still saw what he would resort to in a situation where he had to use all his firepower, and that is Elephant Gatling Gun.  

We also know that Zoro's ceiling is that he was completely inferior to a casual Admiral(will elaborate below), albeit surviving. Vista would not have gotten the same treatment from Fujitora, as seen with how he fought Mihawk. He'd get mid diffed by Mihawk, but Zoro is not pushing Fujitora into mid difficulty. We already saw how Fujitora brought the heat against both Doflamingo & Law at the same time, while remaining fairly at ease.  




> Well, sorry if I may sounded like I'm stating facts in there, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> I want you to read this since I kinda elaborated a little bit in there.



So this is your opinion I take it? 



> To what difficulty would Sanji lose to Zoro? I don't have an answer that I'm confident about, but I wouldn't give the fight anything higher than end of mid difficulty right now, MAYBE the lower of high difficulty. *This goes both to Luffy and Zoro of course*. Again, Don't get me wrong, I am not downplaying Sanji in any means.



So you think that Zoro can mid diff Sanji while Luffy & Zoro are nigh equals? 

But you are downplaying Sanji. The M3 have always remained close.
You seem to be ignoring the points I brought up, nor have you tried to dispute it.

I will repost them under the quote below.




> It's just from my own perspective, he hasn't been catching up to Luffy and Zoro, him commenting on Rayleigh training Luffy proves my point IN A WAY , not completely. It would be absurd for Sanji to catch up with Luffy and Zoro after the time skip, think about it logically, story wise. Both Luffy and Zoro train with two individual legends specifically for fighting purposes. While Sanji trains with Okamas mainly for the cooking recipes and some fighting in the process. There's no way he can catch up to them when two legends have trained them, while he's been training with Okamas, that would mean his potential is much higher than theirs for being able to catch up to them without even being , first a fighter. 2nd training for fighting purposes the whole two years.



How does that prove your point in any way? That is really grasping. All it means is that Sanji complimented Luffy, and it was also an indicator to us, the readers, that Luffy has gotten stronger, although we already know that. 

Sanji is not admitting inferiority in that scene or saying, "Luffy has gotten so much stronger than me after the timeskip. I can't catch up". 

But you haven't even SEEN any of the M3's training. You are jumping to conclusions and ignoring what has been shown AFTER the timeskip and training. 

Here:



> Instead of using what little we know of their training, let's use the most simplistic of powerscaling and the available feats after the timeskip to support why Zoro isn't much, much stronger than Sanji.
> 
> -The most obvious one first, being Sanji is still a part of the M3
> -Sanji was portrayed as one of the 3 powerhouses to beat up the Kraken alongside Luffy & Zoro
> ...







> They do have a lot of relation if you think about it from another perspective, which you did. If Vista happened to be the 2nd strongest on the WB's, and Zoro happened to be on that level right now, then yeah; the whole story wise applies in here because Zoro shouldn't be as strong as the 2nd fighter of a yonkou crew.
> 
> But, if that one swordsman is not the strongest, but the 4th, then there's nothing wrong in Zoro jumping to that level so fast. Actually, to say the likes of Luffy and Zoro can't beat the 4th strongest member of a yonkou crew is also a little bit too much for me. They are challenging the Yonkou and Doflamingo who by himself, could be the 1st strongest of a yonkou crew if not, the 2nd.



First of all, there is no way in hell that Doflamingo is the 1st strongest of a Yonko crew. 

It doesn't matter if they are challenging the Yonko AT ALL. Hype, portrayal, and certain feats speak the very opposite of Luffy taking the Yonko captain in a 1 V 1. Alliances are formed for a reason, and not to mention, there is also another alliance with 3 other SN crews. The SHs are not going up against a Yonko crew on their own.

The very notion that Zoro is currently as strong as a senior/upper Yonko Commander on his own, is something I do not believe or support, by any means. 



> Our opinions about this whole thing will change or will be proven when we're done with the whole Doflamingo matter. So for now, we can only debate and hope for he best.



yes




> No, that's not the only thing that scene told us. That scene told us that Zoro is not a fodder to admirals anymore. Issho caught Zoro off guard, that's first. Zoro was going for Doflamingo free Law from his hands and all of a sudden Fuji jumps in between and attacks Zoro. The glasses cracking and the whole teeth thing happened because Fuji was using his devil fruit powers from the very beginning. He did not hold back at all.  His devil fruit powers what broke Zoro's sunglasses, Fuji obviously increased his gravity powers once he saw that he could not pin Zoro down like he did with Law back at Green bit without destroying the ground they're standing on.



Too much fanfiction and speculation man. Some of this is misrepresentation at its finest. 

Yes, it did tell us that Zoro is not a fodder to a new Admiral.

Issho didn't just catch him off guard. Zoro attacked Doflamingo, and Fujitora _blocked the attack._ Using his devil fruit powers from the beginning does not at all mean he did not hold back at all. You are making things up. The gravity field was so minute in size and scale compared to any of the ones he had used(bar the one used to pin down a defeated Law). In the casino, Fujitora used his devil fruit powers as well, just to merk a couple of Donquixote thugs. He created a far larger sinkhole than the one he sent Zoro down with. You gonna tell me that because he used his devil fruit powers in the casino, he was not holding back at all? Come on.

And no, it is not obvious actually. Not in the least.

What _actually_ happened, in reality, was that once Fujitora blocked the attack from Zoro intended for Doflamingo with ease, he immediately used his gravity field on Zoro, whose glasses cracked, and who was also sweating and gritting his teeth, and was immediately send down the abyss. Zoro did not put up a much better performance by any means than Law, who did far better, fending off both the Admiral and Doflamingo.


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 6, 2014)

EoS Luffy >= Roger >=  EoS Zoro >= Old Whitebeard = EoS Sanji >= Admirals > EoS Franky = Jozu


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## Mihawk (Jan 6, 2014)

> That was not a casual field of gravity, just because it doesn't have a huge radius, doesn't mean it's  not a very powerful attack.The meteors Fuji pulled back at Greenbit were impressive, that's true. But would Zoro have any trouble cutting a rock like that? Hell no lol, he'd probably cut it the same way Law did. That was an AOE attack, while the one he performed on Zoro is more like a 1 vs 1 attack, more effective.



What is this based on exactly? I think you are simply using your own bias now. 

The gravity fields and the attacks Fujitora pulled off in Green Bit were leaps and bounds more devastating than the one he used against Zoro. Why? Not just because of the far greater destructive capacity, but also because they were used against both Law & Doflamingo, whose reactions were already in a state of awestruck. The gravity field and attack he used on Zoro was much, much weaker.

"Would Zoro have any trouble cutting a rock like that? Hell no lol, he'd probably cut it the same way Law did". 

First, you do realize it's more than just a rock right? It's a meteor, and second, what makes you think Law didn't have any trouble against that? He had to create a significantly large room, and both he & Doflamingo had to quickly react and parry while gritting their teeth and sweating. It took both of them to cut apart that "rock", and not easily either. 

So by no means would Zoro easily cut apart that meteor by himself. He'd be very, very lucky if he doesn't get injured from that. 



> It wouldn't have a lot of relevance if we knew exactly where Luffy stands in power. But we don't. Thus, I am predicting how strong he is with the little feats I have about him, and the things I see happening in the future.



The future=/=The present

You still haven't showed me what your method of quantification is, concerning Luffy's potential. 





> Like I said, that wasn't really the argument I wanted to use. i was just throwing away some thoughts randomly, don't take that part seriously.



alright then.




> Oh trust me I always do that. I've told people to do that as well. Like I said, don't take my whole Mihawk vs Vista thing seriously, I was just giving random thoughts. And I think you rely on feats more than you think.



It's about being objective. I don't just focus solely on feats. I also take note of plot placement, hype, portrayal, standings, statements, etc. because these are all somewhat tangible to some extent. An argument like potential is not. 


I





> f I am not mistaken, he's still a part of the navy he used to lead. Otherwise, they wouldn't send him right here and right now to the tournament to win the fruit. Meaning, he's not as inactive as you think.



Does it matter? He's obviously regressed far, far, far, worst than any of the Old Legends have. But I'll grant you that he was in the navy, yes, so not totally inactive. 



> And, Rayleigh has been inactive for years and years, and he was still able to match an admiral. I am not comparing that punching bag to Rayleigh, but I am just trying to say being out of shape doesn't mean as  much in the One Piece world if you had great strength to begin with.



Except Rayleigh is Rayleigh, and different people have different capacities. Whitebeard aged differently than Garp or Rayleigh, and Rayleigh also aged differently from Garp. Not to mention, these guys' showings are heavens higher than what DCJ in his old age, was able to show. How they aged, does not speak for DCJ. 

DCJ didn't just age and regress. He also lost his specialty and the one weapon which gave him the reputation of being a very powerful pirate, formerly.

The DCJ Luffy mid-diffed was a scrub compared to the DCJ Garp wrecked.  



> Luffy still overpowered his Haki with his own, whether he was a hype tool or not. If we're going to use the hype tool argument, then why shouldn't Mihawk be nothing but a hype tool for Vista during the war since he's the perfect person for that job? Meaning Vista is not as strong as you think since you kinda applied that logic to Chinjao (whether he was past his prime or not).



What kind of nonsense logic and comparison is that, my friend? 

*utters the generic apples and oranges line*

You seriously can't compare Vista VS Mihawk to Luffy VS DCJ. And if this is some attempt at a trap question, it's not a very good one.

The difference is that unlike Mihawk, DCJ was not a top tier, nor was he in his prime anymore. DCJ was a hype tool in the sense that Luffy defeated with moderate difficulty and emerged as the block winner. Vista & Mihawk was simply a spar and a clash, with neither fighter being scathed or injured, nor was Mihawk defeated the way DCJ was, so the whole comparison of them being similar hype tools is just ridiculous. 



> Well, I'll admit that since he hasn't gone all out yet, *I'm only hoping for him to be THAT strong.* BUT, there are other factors to look at. Luffy has already challenged one of the yonkou to a fight (Big Mom) and he's starting a war very soon with another yonkou (Kaidou). I don't see Oda just drifting away from the whole yonkou things and focusing on other stuff later on. Which means Luffy will be fighting them very soon (One Piece time).



This again lol. 

These aren't factors to Luffy's current strength. These are plot lines laid out for a good chunk of the story later on. 

And even then, you are considering things a bit too linearly. 

We have no idea when the Alliance will even challenge the Yonko. We have no idea what Law's plan is. We have no idea if the Alliance crews will simply face the Yonko crew head on, and we have no idea if there will be other parties involved to weaken the Yonko crew, namely the Marines or even the Samurai(speculative). We have no idea if the Yonko will be nerfed in some way. There is also nothing that indicates that Luffy will fight a yonko by himself. There is nothing that prevents Oda from making Law, Kidd, Luffy, Hawkins, & Apoo do a 5 V 1 against a Yonko Captain when they become stronger in a couple arcs. 

So I prefer not to use conjecture about the future, as an argument for something in the present. 

The bolded is really all I need though.



> With that being said, If Luffy is not even on Vista's level, how would he be able to fight the yonkou without being completely overwhelmed? How would he jump from being below Vista to a level where he can match a yonkou in strength? It is true that we don't know how Oda is going to do things in the future, will their first yonkou go down in a 1 vs 1 fight, how things will be played. But since Luffy has always been taken fights 1 vs 1 (with some exceptions), it's safe to assume that Luffy will not settle down unless he fights a yonkou 1 vs 1 . I am all open to other options of course.



Read above. 

As if Luffy didn't already receive help, luck, and some form of external factors hindering his opponents in these 1 V 1 fights of the past? You yourself even expressed the desire for an Alliance to be formed against the BB Pirates  You obviously don't even think Luffy is ready to face a Yonko by himself. 

The mere idea that Luffy is going to pull a 1 V 1 win over a Yonko anytime soon is bollocks, especially considering we're only just past the halfway point. Also a huge downplay on the Yonko. 




> True, but since we both agree that we don't need to be zombie feats, we can speculate things on our own. Luffy has already beaten big names like Chinjao, whether you think of him much or not, he's still a big name in the New World who has Cotc as well. The top of the SNs will be a lot stronger than you think, especially Kidd who should blow our minds the next time we see him.



But this is empty speculation. When I say don't be a feats zombie, I mean that one should also account for other things which I've already listed several paragraphs above. 

Crocodile was a "big name" too, and on a far more international scale than DCJ was. Fame=/=power and DCJ was mid-diffed by Luffy, someone who can't even put a scratch on a Yonko.


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## Dunno (Jan 6, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> We also know that Zoro's ceiling is that he was completely inferior to a casual Admiral(will elaborate below), albeit surviving. Vista would not have gotten the same treatment from Fujitora, as seen with how he fought Mihawk. He'd get mid diffed by Mihawk, but Zoro is not pushing Fujitora into mid difficulty. We already saw how Fujitora brought the heat against both Doflamingo & Law at the same time, while remaining fairly at ease.



Now, in Zoro's defence, he was caught off-guard by Fujitora's interception and attack. He actually handled it quite well, managing to break out of it and push Fuji back a little bit while only suffering minor injuries. When Jozu was caught off-guard by Aokiji (another admiral) on the other hand, he failed to defend at all and was instantly taken out. So in that regard, Zoro handled it better. I'm not saying Vista couldn't have handled it better than his supposed superior, but it's quite unlikely.


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## Mihawk (Jan 6, 2014)

Lionel:



> Mihawk's mind set was the same as it was always . It did not change when Vista start fighting him (hell he even looked at Luffy for few moments). So why would i assume Mihawk changed his mind and start using haki when the evidence is telling me otherwise. Because he is Vista ? Thats not a reason.



The question is why wouldn't Mihawk use haki against someone he acknowledged as skilled and praised? It is pretty illogical to think he wouldn't even use the most basic form of haki or CoA in that clash.



> Vista's only haki feat was failing to legitimately hurt Akainu while for Marco it was not. Marco has feats that shows that his haki is strong enough to hurt/hit an Admiral. Just because Vista evenly fought a non-serious Mihawk does not mean all of a sudden we forget about his fail haki part & accept that his haki level is same as Jozu.



Why do you think Marco failed in that instant? It was surely the same reason Vista failed. 

Jozu's strength feat which nearly wiped out a whole squad of Giant VAs, being able to tank Mihawk's slash, and slightly injuring and stalling Aokiji is stratospheres better than anything Luffy has done so far. 

Vista really shouldn't be far behind Jozu at all, based on powerscaling, even if he is definitely weaker than Jozu.  





> i am jut using ur logic. U said "Jozu & Vista is close to each other , that mean they have same level of haki" . Applying that logic---- Vista is close to Jozu,Jozu to Marco,Marco to Kizaru,Kizaru to Akainu and Akainu to WB. They should not be too far from one another and by ur logic their haki level should be the same.



Not really...

your not using my logic at all. You are simply twisting it.

As I said, there are obvious gaps between all the people you listed, which is large enough to make it so that Whitebeard can still be much stronger than Vista. 

In other words:

WB>Akainu>=Aokiji=Kizaru>Marco>Jozu>Vista






> U get what i meant. Lucci was out of Luffy's league at W7 and  in a very short manga time (does not matter how many chapter) Luffy beat him in 1 vs 1.



yes, yes, I get what you mean. 

But it is also important to note why Luffy & the SHs didn't stand a change against the CP9 in the Galley La Company. Their mindset and decisiveness was a lot more unclear and clouded, which is actually very realistic, as far as mind over matter, and state of mind affecting performance goes. 

Besides, Luffy didn't get a chance to use the Gears in Galley La, which are obviously powerups he didn't just work on aboard the Rocketman on the way to EL. 




> Like i said M3 did not had an all out fight and mostly we have to predict/speculate. Like i said b4 (u may take it as a prediction too) DD wount look as invincible as he is now if Luffy/we know about his DF secret . a fucked up Law was just split sec slow to keep up with DD. So, its not impossible for Luffy (should be faster then fucked up Law in G2) to keep up with DD. And no matter how much help/CIS/PIS goes in Luffy's favor Luffy cant beat DD if he is not at least on DD's level. DD may go down in 2 vs 1 too but not more than that & i dont think if its 2 vs 1 ,the fight would go to extreme.



What secret though? Where was this implied? 

I don't know why people are making Doflamingo's ability out to be something that you need some immense secret knowledge over, and I also don't understand why people think that it takes away so much from his abilities. Sure, his fruit has a component of hax to it like Law's does, but it is obvious he is also very strong and has mastered his powers. 

And Doflamingo defeated a messed up Law with relative ease. Law wasn't close to being able to keep up with him. In their fight, an injured Law was one-upped by Doflamingo at every exchange, and all Law accomplished in that state, was scratching Doflamingo's face. 

I disagree with the last two sentences, but whatever. 

I think that if it was a 2 V 1, it can still be extremely difficult.


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## Mihawk (Jan 6, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Now, in Zoro's defence, he was caught off-guard by Fujitora's interception and attack. He actually handled it quite well, managing to break out of it and push Fuji back a little bit while only suffering minor injuries. When Jozu was caught off-guard by Aokiji (another admiral) on the other hand, he failed to defend at all and was instantly taken out. So in that regard, Zoro handled it better. I'm not saying Vista couldn't have handled it better than his supposed superior, but it's quite unlikely.



Your interpreting things at face value. 

Fujitora did come out of nowhere, but he blocked him, before attacking actually. 

One can also make the argument that Zoro's slash also came out of nowhere too, as Fujitora was surprised in this right panel, but he parried it without the use of his devil fruit powers and blocked it pretty easily with his sword.



Your forgetting that Aokiji was a bad matchup for Jozu, because he doesn't need to break through his diamond to incapacitate him. Jozu also managed to bleed Aokiji at least, while Zoro did nothing of the sort to Fujitora. 

The mindsets of Aokiji & Fujitora in their respective situations with Jozu & Zoro were completely different as well, as well as the method to which they were caught off guard.

Not to mention, Jozu has other feats, as well as a the hype of being WB's Left Hand, to his credit which is far superior to what Zoro has going for him.

Jozu was definitely Vista's superior. 

Vista would have handled the situation with Fujitora a lot better than Zoro did, since his reaction speed would be better, based on the fact that he was able to react to Mihawk without repercussion.


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## Slenderman (Jan 6, 2014)

@Dunno Zoro was prepared for a fight so he was not off-guard. Zoro when fighting an admiral struggled to break out then only made Fuji say flying slash it's brutal. Jozu was at least able to make Aokiji bleed. If Zoro fought Kuzan he would go down faster than Jozu. Jozu was able to fight and admiral for a couple chaps while Zoro only fought Fuji for about 5 pages. Zoro wouldn't last the amount of chaps that Jozu did.


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## Dunno (Jan 6, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Your interpreting things at face value.
> 
> Fujitora did come out of nowhere, but he blocked him, before attacking actually.
> 
> One can also make the argument that Zoro's slash also came out of nowhere too, as Fujitora was surprised in this right panel, but he parried it without the use of his devil fruit powers and blocked it pretty easily with his sword.



Fujitora started attacking the moment he blocked the attack. We can even see the effects of it on the same page. 

Fujitora might have been surprised by Zoro's slash, but he had no other opponent and his attention was focused at Zoro, so it's not like that attack caught him completely off-guard. It's more likely that he was surprised that Zoro was able to break free. 



Doflαmingo said:


> Your forgetting that Aokiji was a bad matchup for Jozu, because he doesn't need to break through his diamond to incapacitate him. Jozu also managed to bleed Aokiji at least, while Zoro did nothing of the sort to Fujitora.
> 
> The mindsets of Aokiji & Fujitora in their respective situations with Jozu & Zoro were completely different as well, as well as the method to which they were caught off guard.
> 
> Not to mention, Jozu has other feats, as well as a the hype of being WB's Left Hand, to his credit which is far superior to what Zoro has going for him.



Aokiji wasn't necessarily a bad match-up for Jozu, it just wasn't a good one. It's not like Jozu is easier to freeze than a normal human because of his DF. If Vista was put in the same situation as Jozu, do you think he would be frozen too? Jozu managed to make Aokiji's lip bleed because he was preoccupied with fighting WB, the strongest man in the world. We don't know whether Zoro would be able to hurt a Fujitora concentrating on fighting WB or not. 

Their mindsets weren't that different. Both of them seemed pretty calm and collected. Neither one of them were hell-bent on defeating their opponents, but they were doing their duties as marine admirals. It's not like either one of them was bloodlusted or anything.

Jozu's other feats aren't all that impressive. Stopping a casual slash from Mihawk that had to travel for several miles isn't more impressive than stopping a meteor from a casual Fujitora, something that Law already did. His ice-throwing feat is also surpassed in magnitude by Law's mountain-cutting slash. 



Doflαmingo said:


> Jozu was definitely Vista's superior.
> 
> Vista would have handled the situation with Fujitora a lot better than Zoro did, since his reaction speed would be better, based on the fact that he was able to react to Mihawk without repercussion.



Those two lines are contradictory. If Jozu was Vista's superior, and he failed to react to Aokiji in time, why would Vista be able to react to Fujitora in time?


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## Slenderman (Jan 6, 2014)

^ those can't be compared as Jozu's was a strength feat while Law used his df to cut the mountain. Also casual is not this    I guess shitting yourself is casual.


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## MrWano (Jan 6, 2014)

While I agree on Zoro not being able to give an admiral mid diff. quite yet, his encounter with Fuji wasn't as unimpressive as it's being suggested above. Zoro broke Fuji's gravity field with his weakest sword, while being sent underground, and the flying slash still had enough power to push Fuji backwards. Zoro even got complimented for it. That speaks volumes about Zoro's physical strength and the power that slash had. And while he was bleeding and sweating, he was up and running again very quickly. So I disagree on the notion that said encounter showed us Zoro's limit(s). Sure, he's not a big threat to an admiral, but who on that island is? 

@ Harard: Agree on that. Marco is pretty damn underrated by many.

@ Sakazuki: Doffy actually used his strings in combination with his coat to block Sanji's attack, You can see the strings going into the coat in the bottom right corner.


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## Rob (Jan 6, 2014)

Why was this revived? 

Vista wins.


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## Slenderman (Jan 6, 2014)

@MrWano Zoro wasn't pushed to his limit and he did use his weakest swords but more durability doesn't equal stronger air slash. It's how much power *Zoro* puts into it. I just disliked the way how Dunno said that Zoro did better against an admiral than Jozu but your point is nonetheless good to keep in mind.


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## Dunno (Jan 6, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> ^ those can't be compared as Jozu's was a strength feat while Law used his df to cut the mountain. Also casual is not this    I guess shitting yourself is casual.



Why is it that Jozu's DF can be considered when comparing durability and defensive capabilities and Law's can't be when we consider attack power? I said that Fujitora was casual when calling down those meteors, not that Law blocked them casually. I also didn't say that Zoro did better overall against their respective admiral, just that when they were caught off-guard by admirals, Zoro fared better. It was to refute Doflamingo's argument that Zoro's clash with Fujitora could be used as an indication that he is inferior to Vista.


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## tanman (Jan 6, 2014)

Luffy isn't taking out a Yonkou or an admiral tomorrow. That much is obvious.

However, Luffy's growth has never been exponential. It occurs in increments. Crocodile and Hody were the villains thus far that could easily beat all the villains before them, and that's because they both represented a huge jump. To the Grand Line and to the New World. But why do people seem to think this will happen again. Why does everyone seem to think that Doflamingo is garbage to everyone on the top and that Luffy will need some kind of huge boost after Doflamingo to get on par with an admiral or a Yonko. Sure, there'll probably be a saga in between to get him there, but his power will expand in increments not in factorials. Thus it seem pretty reasonable to think that Luffy, Vergo, Jinbe, Ace, and co. can at the very least put up a decent fight against the top. Just as Alabasta Luffy could give a decent fight to Lucci or Moriah. 

The M3 is being hugely underestimated if it's seen as insane to claim that Luffy would not instantly die were he fighting Akainu or Whitebeard or Mihawk or whomever. I think it stems from Sanji being pressured by Vergo and loosing to Doflamingo. The problem, however, is that few people seem to recognize that these characters are also extremely powerful. Vergo has the best feats of any vice admiral to date. It's very likely that he'll be within the five strongest vice admirals. Doflamingo is one of the strongest non-Yonkou pirates out there with portrayal on par with the likes of Jozu. But as along as the majority thinks that Doflamingo would be casually one shotted by an admiral or that all vice admirals would be fodder stomped by an admiral, the M3 is never going to get the credit that they so desperately deserve. And Vista is going to be wanked to oblivion.

That's the way I see it.


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## Slenderman (Jan 6, 2014)

@Dunno Your choice since I can't change your mind.


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## Orca (Jan 6, 2014)

tanman said:


> Luffy isn't taking out a Yonkou or an admiral tomorrow. That much is obvious.
> 
> However, Luffy's growth has never been exponential. It occurs in increments. Crocodile and Hody were the villains thus far that could easily beat all the villains before them, and that's because they both represented a huge jump. To the Grand Line and to the New World. But why do people seem to think this will happen again. Why does everyone seem to think that Doflamingo is garbage to everyone on the top and that Luffy will need some kind of huge boost after Doflamingo to get on par with an admiral or a Yonko. Sure, there'll probably be a saga in between to get him there, but his power will expand in increments not in factorials. Thus it seem pretty reasonable to think that Luffy, Vergo, Jinbe, Ace, and co. can at the very least put up a decent fight against the top. Just as Alabasta Luffy could give a decent fight to Lucci or Moriah.
> 
> ...



I might disagree on some small details but regardless of that, great post. I think it'll take some time for people to inhale the things you mentioned which I agree with.


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## Slenderman (Jan 6, 2014)

Great post tanman. Just like Jimbei and Ivan Luffy would last some time against Akainu but still would get low diffed instead off lolstomp


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## Shinthia (Jan 7, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Lionel:
> The question is why wouldn't Mihawk use haki against someone he acknowledged as skilled and praised? It is pretty illogical to think he wouldn't even use the most basic form of haki or CoA in that clash.


the same reason he did not even bother to change his mind set and be serious . and also because he is not a threat to him.




> Why do you think Marco failed in that instant? It was surely the same reason Vista failed.


well that give the reader an impression that their haki is not strong enough on that time (why ?who knows . haki is still unknown). While Marco proved his haki can be strong enough to hit an Admiral ,Vista did not. We dont know how much weaker Vista is compared to Marco so i wount use Marco to measure Vista's haki level.




> Jozu's strength feat which nearly wiped out a whole squad of Giant VAs, being able to tank Mihawk's slash, and slightly injuring and stalling Aokiji is stratospheres better than anything Luffy has done so far. Vista really shouldn't be far behind Jozu at all, based on powerscaling, even if he is definitely weaker than Jozu



In other words u do admit Jozu's haki level is better than Vista ? Right ?




> Not really...
> 
> your not using my logic at all. You are simply twisting it.
> 
> ...



actually u did say even tho Jozu > Vista their haki level is equal/same. so, i just only used that rule to Jozu & Marco then Marco & Kizaru and so on.




> yes, yes, I get what you mean.
> 
> But it is also important to note why Luffy & the SHs didn't stand a change against the CP9 in the Galley La Company. Their mindset and decisiveness was a lot more unclear and clouded, which is actually very realistic, as far as mind over matter, and state of mind affecting performance goes.
> 
> Besides, Luffy didn't get a chance to use the Gears in Galley La, which are obviously powerups he didn't just work on aboard the Rocketman on the way to EL.



Exactly. Lucci was out of Luffy's league but still with a very short time Luffy beat Lucci who seemed totally invincible.

Exactly like Sanji with HM. and we also dont know if Sanji has any other final finishing move. Luffy may have a G4 , Luffy's attack name against DonC was "thor" something which is still not clear at this time. So, Luffy has a surprise power ups what we dont know yet.



> What secret though? Where was this implied?
> 
> I don't know why people are making Doflamingo's ability out to be something that you need some immense secret knowledge over, and I also don't understand why people think that it takes away so much from his abilities. Sure, his fruit has a component of hax to it like Law's does, but it is obvious he is also very strong and has mastered his powers.
> 
> ...



The trap part which was strong enough to stop someone like Jozu .

It does not make DD a fodder. It just makes DD look less invincible and within Luffy's range.

In physical strength it seemed Law & DD was in same level (blocked DD's attack) as for the scratching part look at it this way, DD tried to dodge MES but was not 100% successful .Thats why it slkightly hit his face. That means DD's reaction speed was just split sec faster than Law.

well i disagree with the last sentence ,but its more like a prediction. so nothing to debate here.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 7, 2014)

Vista wins.

If Luffy defeats Doflamingo in a fair bout, I might change my mind.


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## cry77 (Jan 7, 2014)

Vista wins


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 7, 2014)

cry77 said:


> Vista wins



Nah, Bill Gates brought out Windows 7 early for a reason.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2014)

tanman said:


> Luffy isn't taking out a Yonkou or an admiral tomorrow. That much is obvious.
> 
> However, Luffy's growth has never been exponential. It occurs in increments. Crocodile and Hody were the villains thus far that could easily beat all the villains before them, and that's because they both represented a huge jump. To the Grand Line and to the New World. But why do people seem to think this will happen again. Why does everyone seem to think that Doflamingo is garbage to everyone on the top and that Luffy will need some kind of huge boost after Doflamingo to get on par with an admiral or a Yonko. Sure, there'll probably be a saga in between to get him there, but his power will expand in increments not in factorials. Thus it seem pretty reasonable to think that Luffy, Vergo, Jinbe, Ace, and co. can at the very least put up a decent fight against the top. Just as Alabasta Luffy could give a decent fight to Lucci or Moriah.
> 
> ...



Doflamingo beat the shit out of Law and Sanji.

Akainu>>>>Doflamingo.

Akainu eats Luffy alive.

If Sanji could not fight Doflamingo like hell Jinbei or vergo can fight against the top.


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## tanman (Jan 7, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Doflamingo beat the shit out of Law and Sanji.
> 
> Akainu>>>>Doflamingo
> 
> ...



Doflamingo's abilities allow him to defeat his opponents far more easily than Akainu ever could.
That's pretty much the blanket answer to everything you claimed here. The ">>>>" is the overestimation of admirals and Yonkou that my entire previous post was talking about and you're not really providing anything to back it up.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2014)

tanman said:


> *Doflamingo's abilities allow him to defeat his opponents far more easily than Akainu ever could.*
> That's pretty much the blanket answer to everything you claimed here. The ">>>>" is the overestimation of admirals and Yonkou that my entire previous post was talking about and you're not really providing anything to back it up.



Magma hot enough to melt the flesh of the Worlds Strongest man we kill you just as easily as doflamingo cutting off your head or putting a string through your heart. 

Also Doflaimngo tossed aside Sanji right from the start with no hax, and took zero damage from either of his attacks, and from what we saw of Law he was also using no hax either. 

How about you provide some proof?

Evidence that Suggests Doflamingo would not get his ass kicked by Akainu for example? or that its easier to not get magma fisted by Akainu then it is for Doflamingo to make you his monkey.


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## Butt Hole lol (Jan 7, 2014)

Vista loses
/thread


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## tanman (Jan 7, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Magma hot enough to melt the flesh of the Worlds Strongest man we kill you just as easily as doflamingo cutting off your head or putting a string through your heart.
> 
> Also Doflaimngo tossed aside Sanji right from the start with no hax, and took zero damage from either of his attacks, and from what we saw of Law he was also using no hax either.
> 
> ...



I made no mention of killing. I simply said "defeating" their opponents. Doflamingo's fruit completely restrains his opponents while seemingly ignoring strength and CoA. Akainu's ability, on the other hand, can be countered by Haki. And it is not a fruit that K.O.s by nature. Every one of Akainu's attacks are an example not just of his ability, but his physical strength and Haki. More is put into a K.O. for Akainu, thus my conclusion.

That's a testament to Doflamingo's excellent CoA, which was capable of expelling the ice of Kuzan. Sanji, on the other hand, specializes in CoO. There's nothing shocking there.  Further, Doflamingo didn't not "toss" Sanji aside. To Doflamingo's frustration, he came right back at which point Doflamingo had to use haxx to prevent a lengthy battle. But what you seem to be missing is that *Doflamingo is incredibly powerful*, and far closer to the top than you seem to be suggesting. So the fact that Law even when exhausted could last so long against Doflamingo is a testament to his ability to give an admirable struggle against the top fighters. Doflamingo has escaped an admiral's grasp, been portrayed on par with Jozu (who gave an admiral a lengthy fight), and in his first appearance was completely controlling the movement of a vice admiral. I don't understand how one can think that does not put him on the next level of fighter beyond vice admirals and the like. The problem is that you see an admiral or a Yonkou's abilities as being so many leagues above that, which greatly skews the views of many posters.

So is "no u" a legitimate argument now? I clearly spelled the reasoning and evidence behind my opinions in this post and the previous two. Are you looking for calcs? I apologize, but that's not the foundation of my argument. If you're looking for scans, I can provide those, but I feel you're already familiar with the portions of the manga that I'm referring to.

The problem with the evidence demanding is the "not." One cannot provide evidence that something is "not" true. However, if you'd like to provide that it is true, I would be more than obliged to provide a counterargument, which would probably involved me discussing the fact that Doflamingo has already dealt with fighters with scale comparable to that of Akainu' (Jozu's phsyical strength, Law's devil fruit, Fujitora's devil fruit, and Aokiji's huge scale devil fruit that far and way exceeds Akainu's), has been showing countering the techniques of a fighter virtually canonically equal to Akainu, and has easily fodderstomped characters that are clearly on the level directly below admirals. ....or something.


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