# Big Mom VS Fujitora



## Nekochako (Dec 30, 2017)

Location: Dressrosa
Distance: Close enough where they can start fighting instantly

No lifespan hax for Big Mom. 

Big Mom is 100 % normal.

Still think it's a extreme diff fight for mama. What do you think?


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## MO (Dec 30, 2017)

big mom wins

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Baba (Dec 30, 2017)

I wonder what is the limit of Fujitora's gravity  I feel like she'll be able to get through it as she was seen walking through the earth itself just fine. I believe Big Mom has an advantage in strength and durability at her 100% state over Fujitora.  Fujitora takes it in swordsmanship and speed/agility. Then again, we've seen so much of Big Mom and so little of Fujitora so I have to assume with only the shown feats.  Overall, I'll say Big Mom wins but if Fujitora is able to hold her off till she gets into one of her fits than Fujitora wins cause Mama doesn't look to be a fighter who can have long battles without consuming food.


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## Ruse (Dec 30, 2017)

Big Mom high extreme diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## DoctorLaw (Dec 30, 2017)

Very high diff either way. Fujitora’s gravity hax are strong enough to yank down meteors, so he should be able to sink her. I doubt even BM tanks meteors. On the other hand, her homies and her insane physical strength are a problem, so it could be close

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Dec 31, 2017)

Big Mam's character wins with mid to high difficulty in my opinion.  Again Big Mam's character is superior in most aspects so far.  Physical strength, Haki, Devil Fruit skills, and defense are all aspects that her character bests Fujitora in.  Big Mam's character should be able to withstand Fujitora's Gravity skills without much of a problem given that Sabo can maneuver around it and her character's slashes should be able to destroy the Meteors.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 5 | Dislike 1


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## Dunno (Dec 31, 2017)



Reactions: Funny 4


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 31, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> Very high diff either way. Fujitora’s gravity hax are strong enough to yank down meteors, so he should be able to sink her. I doubt even BM tanks meteors. On the other hand, her homies and her insane physical strength are a problem, so it could be close



Yeah I'd go for this as well.


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## convict (Dec 31, 2017)

"But she's a Yonko!"

No. just no. That is literally all people have to stand on at this point. At some point you can't just keep ignoring feats. Admirals have been far more impressive than this wench.

Giving purple tiger the nod.

Reactions: Like 4 | Dislike 1


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## Gohara (Dec 31, 2017)

@ Dunno.

I wonder if it would be that easy though?  Keep in mind that Zoro overpowered the gravity and Sabo can maneuver around it without much of a problem.  I would think that at bare minimum Fujitora would need to use something substantially more powerful than either of those techniques to even move Big Mam's character.  But that's questionable.


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## Dunno (Dec 31, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Dunno.
> 
> I wonder if it would be that easy though?  Keep in mind that Zoro overpowered the gravity and Sabo can maneuver around it without much of a problem.  I would think that at bare minimum Fujitora would need to use something substantially more powerful than either of those techniques to even move Big Mam's character.  But that's questionable.


I don't really think that she would get one-shot by a move weaker than the one Fujitora used against Zoro, but she still seems to have problems with gravity.


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## Sherlōck (Dec 31, 2017)

Extreme difficulty either way.


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## Kylo Ren (Jan 1, 2018)

Big Mom extreme diff.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 1, 2018)

What is she supposed to do against Issho? Eat his Ramen?

She definitely isn't outlasting an admiral as shown in the manga. She can't outright crush him. She isn't winning this... She is just a retard, obese whore.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Disagree 1


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## GucciBandana (Jan 1, 2018)

Fujitora drops cake tower sized rubbles and decimates big moms entire crew like what was about to happen during the box explosion.

On a serious note, big mom prob wins extreme diff, but her hitting accuracy has been way too bad against anyone with like mid tier agility or above, not looking good for her feats wise.


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## NooksBrigade (Jan 1, 2018)

Big Mom high diff.

They start out even but then Big Mom gets the edge and finishes the fight with a "Life or Death". 

She gains an Admiral homie for her troubles. XD

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HaxHax (Jan 2, 2018)

Big mama so fat she got he own gravitational field.

Fuji hardcountered.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## HawkEye13 (Jan 2, 2018)

Getting rag balled by Nami, Jinbei, Chopper, Brook 
vs
Clashing with Luffy, Law , Zoro, Doflamingo, Sabo, Jack

Also Gravity >>> Fire/lightning 
Those homies aint doing shit to gravity when Fujitora's gravity was dominating Mera Mera fire power.
Fujitora very high death Big Meme in control
He mid diffs BM out of control


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 2, 2018)

Dunno said:


>


this is actually a legitimate point

if they are fighting near water then he do something like this to dump her DF ass in it and she wont do much about it


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 2, 2018)

Fujitora extreme diffs.


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## MO (Jan 2, 2018)

Weiss said:


> this is actually a legitimate point
> 
> if they are fighting near water then he do something like this to dump her DF ass in it *and she wont do much about it*


zeus literally catched her the next panel.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Gohara (Jan 3, 2018)

@ TheWiggian.

Her character can punch him and/or spam him with Island level sword slashes and/or spam him elemental based techniques.  I don't doubt Fujitora's ability to dodge some of those techniques but he doesn't yet have any impressive speed feats.  Plus her character's physical strength is significantly superior to an ill and battle worn version of Old Whitebeard's character who significantly wounds Pre Time Skip Akainu with a couple of techniques.  The point on stamina is not only circumstantial but assumes that Fujitora can dodge her character's techniques for a long time which there is no reason to automatically assume that in my opinion.

@ Dunno.

It's not gravity.  Those characters were simply tripped from the treasure that they had no idea about making the cake tilt.  I don't doubt that if they had no idea that Fujitora was in Totland that he could do something like that as well.  Although even then most of those characters would likely be uninjured and/or Zeus can simply catch them.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2018)

MO said:


> zeus literally catched her the next panel.


Fuji force pushes Zeus away


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Island level sword slashes


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## MO (Jan 3, 2018)

Weiss said:


> Fuji force pushes Zeus away


prometheus can catch her too. before you say he pushes him away too, one of them can attack the admiral while the other gets big mom.

Reactions: Like 1 | Creative 1


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## Gianfi (Jan 3, 2018)

BM high(Low) diff

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2018)

Gohara said:


> @ TheWiggian.
> 
> Her character can punch him and/or spam him with Island level sword slashes and/or spam him elemental based techniques. I don't doubt Fujitora's ability to dodge some of those techniques but he doesn't yet have any impressive speed feats.  Plus her character's physical strength is significantly superior to an ill and battle worn version of Old Whitebeard's character who significantly wounds Pre Time Skip Akainu with a couple of techniques.  The point on stamina is not only circumstantial but assumes that Fujitora can dodge her character's techniques for a long time which there is no reason to automatically assume that in my opinion.



As far as shown the Weakhats are able to dodge that. I doubt a top tier will be catched that easily by her. I also see him getting hit by a couple attacks but that physical power is absolutely absurd if fucking Chopper can block a bloodlusted strike from her without taking damage.

I've yet to witness her island level sword attacks because i haven't seen any so far.
If Jinbei can take her hits and being fine afterwards with no scratch then she isn't doing shit to an admiral either.


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## Gohara (Jan 5, 2018)

The only panel in the chapter in which any of them dodge Big Mam's character is when her character aimlessly punches the ship.  Also outside of Nami I don't consider any of The Straw Hat Pirates in the Arc to be amongst the least skilled of the Pirate Crew.  And Nami has mostly been using Zeus in the Arc so far.  Furthermore Fujitora doesn't yet have any impressive speed feats for an Admiral level character.

Chopper hasn't done anything like that.  Big Mam's character was attempting to grab Nami in that panel.  It was arguably less than a slap and significantly less than a punch.  That's also a relatively exhausted version of Big Mam's character.  Compare that to Pre Time Skip Luffy blocking an actual punch from a fully healed Sengoku.  Even though I think that Sengoku gets some undeserved flack for that it's less impressive than the example that you're referring to.  There are many examples in the series of characters doing things like that against far superior characters.  That's often overlooked in those comparisons.

Island level might be an exaggeration.  I thought that I remembered Elbaf Spear destroying a significant portion of an Island but I might be misremembering.  Either way it's an insane technique that can be spammed.

Jinbe was sent flying by that sword slash and again it's a relatively nerfed version of that character.  Plus there's no reason to assume that most of the Admirals have superior defense to Jinbe even if they are a league superior to Jinbe in overall skills.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 4


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## drew8324 (Jan 6, 2018)

convict said:


> "But she's a Yonko!"
> 
> No. just no. That is literally all people have to stand on at this point. At some point you can't just keep ignoring feats. Admirals have been far more impressive than this wench.
> 
> Giving purple tiger the nod.


Its just Big Mom cause she us the weakest of the Yonko. The other all take this no higher than med diff

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 6, 2018)

Fujitora obviously wins. Not sure where the idea of emperors being automatically better than the admirals has come from, anyway. The only exception to the rule is Shanks and eventually Teach.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 7, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> Its just Big Mom cause she us the weakest of the Yonko. The other all take this no higher than med diff


Fujitora isn't going down to anyone alive in verse with less than a high difficulty fight. The Admirals are just that strong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DA hawk (Jan 7, 2018)

Skinny meme gets skinned alive.

Blob fish meme is still vague AF cause she was retarded for 90% of the time.


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## Blanco (Jan 11, 2018)

Fujitora uses gravity on her fat ass, she will no longer be able to move. 

GG Fuji wins


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 11, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> Its just Big Mom cause she us the weakest of the Yonko. The other all take this no higher than med diff







You guys are never going to learn are you?

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 11, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Fujitora obviously wins. Not sure where the idea of emperors being automatically better than the admirals has come from, anyway. The only exception to the rule is Shanks and eventually Teach.



And Kaido and healthy Whitebeard... so basically it is correct for any yonko except Big Mom.


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## drew8324 (Jan 11, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> You guys are never going to learn are you?




Want me to get the image of a 72 year old senile INJURED dead man beat a FULLY Functionall "strongest admiral" in 2 hits??? 

I think you have a hard time discerning plot from actual combat.  What the Strawhats did on the ship to a WEAKENED Big Mom is a mix of plot & feats however take it whatever way you like.  Until we see ANY Admiral (besides Garp[VA]  & Mr. Buddha)  get Yonko level hype let alone even stand a chance in a fight with a Yonko cause they damn sure ain't winning than we can talk buddy

Reactions: Like 2


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## drew8324 (Jan 11, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> Fujitora isn't going down to anyone alive in verse with less than a high difficulty fight. The Admirals are just that strong.



The Yonko (outside of Big Meme which I stated [Ik "I" doesn't represent the fan base as a whole I am just speaking on my lonesome] previously from 2015+)  are just that much more Monsters.  I mean even BB who wasn't even Admiral level at tr time of WB death is shocking the world in ways the admirals don't off pure hype alone.  Until the Strongest Admiral got beat by a Yonko on his deathbed  in 2 shots sealed the deal  for me.  These Yonko hold their own against the Other Yonko even when they are at they primes.  If you consider what Sakazuki did against Edward Newgate as 'holding your own' than I don't  think you've been in a fight let alone can scale this approximately or accurate that scene.


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## Dunno (Jan 11, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> The Yonko (outside of Big Meme which I stated [Ik "I" doesn't represent the fan base as a whole I am just speaking on my lonesome] previously from 2015+)  are just that much more Monsters.  I mean even BB who wasn't even Admiral level at tr time of WB death is shocking the world in ways the admirals don't off pure hype alone.  Until the Strongest Admiral got beat by a Yonko on his deathbed  in 2 shots sealed the deal  for me.  These Yonko hold their own against the Other Yonko even when they are at they primes.  If you consider what Sakazuki did against Edward Newgate as 'holding your own' than I don't  think you've been in a fight let alone can scale this approximately or accurate that scene.


And who was it that put said Yonkou on his deathbed again?


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## HaxHax (Jan 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> And who was it that put said Yonkou on his deathbed again?


Father time?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 12, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> The Yonko (outside of Big Meme which I stated [Ik "I" doesn't represent the fan base as a whole I am just speaking on my lonesome] previously from 2015+)  are just that much more Monsters.  I mean even BB who wasn't even Admiral level at tr time of WB death is shocking the world in ways the admirals don't off pure hype alone.  Until the Strongest Admiral got beat by a Yonko on his deathbed  in 2 shots sealed the deal  for me.  These Yonko hold their own against the Other Yonko even when they are at they primes.  If you consider what Sakazuki did against Edward Newgate as 'holding your own' than I don't  think you've been in a fight let alone can scale this approximately or accurate that scene.


Blackbeard is shocking the world because he got the most destructive fruit in existence. The power that can destroy the world. That's why he is so dangerous now. And all the Admirals clashed equally with Whitebeard. Whitebeard managed to temporarily incapacitate Akainu, but he lost half his face in the process.

The Admirals and Emperors have been compared time after time and they are the same status: Admirals for Marines and Emperors for pirates. It would be strange to think that the World Government's greatest fighting force would not be able to give high diff. to the top pirates in the world, especially since they are the guys meant to rival them.


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 12, 2018)

In all honesty, Whitebeard absolutely flattened Akainu, but that wasn’t because Old WB is that much stronger than the admirals, it’s because he snuck Akainu. He caught Akainu lacking beautifully, and he was 10000% bloodlusted, it was the perfect opportunity to send WB out with a bang. I mean Aokiji ripped off Jozu’s arm the moment he was distracted, is it that hard to believe a guy with the worlds strongest DF can nearly kill you if he gets to land the first hit? I’m more impressed Akainu managed to put up the fight that he did after that.

No other Yonkou could’ve done that to Sakazuki, hell when Akainu was actually facing Old WB straight up he managed to deflect a quake. Admirals are still monsters, and are on the same level as the yonkou

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Gohara (Jan 13, 2018)

Where is it stated that the Yonkou and the Admirals are of comparable status?  The only statements that I've ever seen referenced for that argument are Luffy and Chinjao naming both as obstacles for any Pirate trying to become Pirate King.  But that is no where near the same thing as saying that all named obstacles are of comparable status.  As for the Admirals being The World Government's top fighting force, it's actually stated that The World Government dubbed them The Marines' top fighting force.  The World Government gave the Admirals the title but the title only applies to The Marines.  And while that's an amazing title, it's not specific against the idea that there can be individuals in The Marines who are superior to the Admirals.  Such as Garp.  So it's not necessarily a fact that the Admirals are the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd most skilled individuals in The Marines.  They can reasonably be the 3rd, 4th, and 5th or the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th most skilled individuals in The Marines without it contradicting the title.

So it doesn't necessarily have to be that the Yonkou are meant to match up against the Admirals.  It can also be that the match ups are meant to be:

Yonkou vs. Kong, Fleet Admiral, Garp, and possibly The Gorosei.

Top Yonkou Commanders vs. top CP0 members and Admirals.

Which I would argue makes more sense in my opinion.  If it's the Yonkou vs. the Admirals who do the top Yonkou Commanders match up against?  Unless CP0 has like 10-15 top Yonkou Commander level characters in their organization.

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## drew8324 (Jan 13, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> Blackbeard is shocking the world because he got the most destructive fruit in existence. The power that can destroy the world. That's why he is so dangerous now. And all the Admirals clashed equally with Whitebeard. Whitebeard managed to temporarily incapacitate Akainu, but he lost half his face in the process.
> 
> The Admirals and Emperors have been compared time after time and they are the same status: Admirals for Marines and Emperors for pirates. It would be strange to think that the World Government's greatest fighting force would not be able to give high diff. to the top pirates in the world, especially since they are the guys meant to rival them.



Why'd these "Admirals" who are supposedly on level with the Yonko replaced in 1 year?  Not 1 admiral got replaced but 2 in a single year.  Hell BB had the STRONGEST Paramecia & Logia a crew filled with Level 6 inmates and still wasn't fully recognized as a Yonko till a year later. 

Must be more Admiral level people level people around the sea than Yonko level is what its seeming like.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## drew8324 (Jan 13, 2018)

Dunno said:


> And who was it that put said Yonkou on his deathbed again?


Blackbeard, Squardo,  & himself for having bad health habits

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 13, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Where is it stated that the Yonkou and the Admirals are of comparable status?  The only statements that I've ever seen referenced for that argument are Luffy and Chinjao naming both as obstacles for any Pirate trying to become Pirate King.  But that is no where near the same thing as saying that all named obstacles are of comparable status.  As for the Admirals being The World Government's top fighting force, it's actually stated that The World Government dubbed them The Marines' top fighting force.  The World Government gave the Admirals the title but the title only applies to The Marines.  And while that's an amazing title, it's not specific against the idea that there can be individuals in The Marines who are superior to the Admirals.  Such as Garp.  So it's not necessarily a fact that the Admirals are the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd most skilled individuals in The Marines.  They can reasonably be the 3rd, 4th, and 5th or the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th most skilled individuals in The Marines without it contradicting the title.
> 
> So it doesn't necessarily have to be that the Yonkou are meant to match up against the Admirals.  It can also be that the match ups are meant to be:
> 
> ...



The bold is exactly what I support as well. The admirals are not meant to balance out the yonko, the fleet admiral does. The admirals and yonko top commanders are both second fiddle to the yonko and fleet admiral. We´ve only seen admiral Kizaru fight first mates, we´ve only seen admiral Fujitora fight a first mate and top commander level guys. And we have- and never will- see them fight anyone above that. Who is going to fight Luffy at the end of the story? That´s right Fleet admiral Akainu and yonkos. Who are admirals going to fight? The subordinates and/or supernova allies. This illustrates the food chain very clearly.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2 | Tier Specialist 3


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 13, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> The bold is exactly what I support as well. The admirals are not meant to balance out the yonko, the fleet admiral does. The admirals and yonko top commanders are both second fiddle to the yonko and fleet admiral. We´ve only seen admiral Kizaru fight first mates, we´ve only seen admiral Fujitora fight a first mate and top commander level guys. And we have- and never will- see them fight anyone above that. Who is going to fight Luffy at the end of the story? That´s right Fleet admiral Akainu and yonkos. Who are admirals going to fight? The subordinates and/or supernova allies. This illustrates the food chain very clearly.



Uh, Aokiji fought Akainu for 10 days straight. Akainu's attacks are strong enough to fry Old WB, possibly strong enough to one shot him if he could've landed a Great Eruption, and Aokiji fought him for 10 days and only lost an arm. Do you honestly think Katakuri or Marco would've lasted even a day fighting the Mad Dog himself? Admirals are above first mates, there is nothing in the manga to suggest otherwise.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 13, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> *We´ve only seen admiral Kizaru fight first mates*, we´ve only seen admiral Fujitora fight a first mate and top commander level guys. *And we have- and never will- see them fight anyone above that.*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Furinji Saiga (Jan 13, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> Blackbeard, Squardo,  & himself for having bad health habits


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## Gohara (Jan 13, 2018)

@ Law.

Sure Akainu did that against a significantly nerfed version of Old Whitebeard's character.  Also we have far more panels of top Yonkou Commanders matching up on par with Admirals than we do panels of Akainu doing that.  As for Old Whitebeard's character vs. Kizaru I'm pretty sure that Zoro is referring to actual clashes as that confrontation doesn't necessarily constitute a clash.  Plus the top Yonkou Commanders have been matching up on par with fully healed Admirals and for far more panels than Old Whitebeard's character vs. Akainu's clash of punches.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Dunno (Jan 14, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> Blackbeard, Squardo,  & himself for having bad health habits


Now I don't want to appear rude or anything, but that answer seems quite dishonest.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 14, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> Why'd these "Admirals" who are supposedly on level with the Yonko replaced in 1 year?  Not 1 admiral got replaced but 2 in a single year.  Hell BB had the STRONGEST Paramecia & Logia a crew filled with Level 6 inmates and still wasn't fully recognized as a Yonko till a year later.
> 
> Must be more Admiral level people level people around the sea than Yonko level is what its seeming like.


That's because replacing an Admiral is much easier. It isn't related to strength. An Emperor needs a powerful crew, territories in the New World and influence as well as recognition by other pirates and Marines. Admirals on the other hand only need to be conscripted and be strong enough for the position. That's why Blackbeard became a Yonkou a year and the Admirals were replaced. He slowly began taking Whitebeard's territories and forces the Whitebeard remnants in a showdown, which obviously takes much more time than a world-wide military conscription.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 14, 2018)

Jigen said:


>


 
Since when is that a fight? 2-3 panel skirmishes are suddenly fights... 



DoctorLaw said:


> Uh, Aokiji fought Akainu for 10 days straight. Akainu's attacks are strong enough to fry Old WB, possibly strong enough to one shot him if he could've landed a Great Eruption, and Aokiji fought him for 10 days and only lost an arm. Do you honestly think Katakuri or Marco would've lasted even a day fighting the Mad Dog himself? Admirals are above first mates, there is nothing in the manga to suggest otherwise.



How convenient that you are using Aokiji and Akainu the 2 guys that were chosen as F-L-E-E-T  A-D-M-I-R-A-L candidates as feat benchmarks for admirals. A.k.A the rank canonically above admiral. How about you look at Kizaru and Fujitora instead and show us how they clashed evenly with first mates but noone above that?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Since when is that a fight? 2-3 panel skirmishes are suddenly fights...
> 
> 
> 
> How convenient that you are using Aokiji and Akainu the 2 guys that were chosen as F-L-E-E-T  A-D-M-I-R-A-L candidates as feat benchmarks for admirals. A.k.A the rank canonically above admiral. How about you look at Kizaru and Fujitora instead and show us how they clashed evenly with first mates but noone above that?



Are you moving the goal posts? You said only the fleet admiral can match up with the Yonkou, I give you someone else, and now it’s Fleet Admiral candidates? Anyway, Kizaru was portrayed exactly as Aokiji was during the war, and even fought pretty much the same people. He took no damage from Marco, exactly like Aokiji, he fought WB and took no damage, like Aokiji, and he shot and hurt WB during their brief scuffle, which is more than what Aokiji did. Kizaru has taken 0 damage since this manga started, and he has wrecked or did serious damage to anyone who fights him. Meanwhile, BM has gotten thrown by Jinbe, Kaidou has been captured a ridiculous number of times fights, WB’s dead, Shanks got stole on by Teach, and Teach had Pre skip Luffy playing dominoes with his Liver. The Yonkou have all at some point lost or gotten humbled. Most of the admirals have gotten humbled too. Except Kizaru. He’s never even been stressed once in the manga.

As for Fujitora, he can drop meteors while he eats ramen. The one he dropped on Law and Doflamingo that he had to eventually repel himself was him testing himself for the lulz. He also lifted all of the wreckage of Dressrosa, the entire island. He then fought Luffy while doing this, and tanked a G3 attack without even bothering to use haki. A G3 attack was capable of blasting away a good chunk of Pica, and can hurt Doflamingo if it hits. Speaking of Doflamingo, he completely stopped a strong Doflamingo kick. Doflamingo’s kicks are capable of tossing someone as strong as Luffy, and have been used to remind Law why he had to run and get his friend to jump him

When Fuji fought Sabo he didn’t stress one bit, received no damage, and he couldn’t even use his meteors. In other words, a restricted Fuji at the very least can hold his own against the Revolutionary army’s #2 without even breaking a sweat. The popular counter to this is that Sabo didn’t try, but why would he engage an admiral while whining about how he has to protect Luffy from him and just half ass it? Sabo was amazed by what Fuji’s move set was like, and Fuji just seem amused with what Sabo could do. Fuji didn’t try the entire time he was on DR, and no one could scratch him.


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## Raiden34 (Jan 15, 2018)

Big Mom high-diffs.


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## Quipchaque (Jan 15, 2018)

[


DoctorLaw said:


> Are you moving the goal posts? You said only the fleet admiral can match up with the Yonkou, I give you someone else, and now it’s Fleet Admiral candidates? Anyway, Kizaru was portrayed exactly as Aokiji was during the war, and even fought pretty much the same people. He took no damage from Marco, exactly like Aokiji, he fought WB and took no damage, like Aokiji, and he shot and hurt WB during their brief scuffle, which is more than what Aokiji did. Kizaru has taken 0 damage since this manga started, and he has wrecked or did serious damage to anyone who fights him. Meanwhile, BM has gotten thrown by Jinbe, Kaidou has been captured a ridiculous number of times fights, WB’s dead, Shanks got stole on by Teach, and Teach had Pre skip Luffy playing dominoes with his Liver. The Yonkou have all at some point lost or gotten humbled. Most of the admirals have gotten humbled too. Except Kizaru. He’s never even been stressed once in the manga.
> 
> As for Fujitora, he can drop meteors while he eats ramen. The one he dropped on Law and Doflamingo that he had to eventually repel himself was him testing himself for the lulz. He also lifted all of the wreckage of Dressrosa, the entire island. He then fought Luffy while doing this, and tanked a G3 attack without even bothering to use haki. A G3 attack was capable of blasting away a good chunk of Pica, and can hurt Doflamingo if it hits. Speaking of Doflamingo, he completely stopped a strong Doflamingo kick. Doflamingo’s kicks are capable of tossing someone as strong as Luffy, and have been used to remind Law why he had to run and get his friend to jump him
> 
> When Fuji fought Sabo he didn’t stress one bit, received no damage, and he couldn’t even use his meteors. In other words, a restricted Fuji at the very least can hold his own against the Revolutionary army’s #2 without even breaking a sweat. The popular counter to this is that Sabo didn’t try, but why would he engage an admiral while whining about how he has to protect Luffy from him and just half ass it? Sabo was amazed by what Fuji’s move set was like, and Fuji just seem amused with what Sabo could do. Fuji didn’t try the entire time he was on DR, and no one could scratch him.



"Moving the goal posts" just because I worded it dfferently. Did you by any chance forget that Aokiji is nigh-equal to Akainu despite devil fruit advantage? It makes practically no difference whether I use him or Akainu as example because they both are considered fleet admiral level. You are just grasping for straws to find weaknesses in my argument now. Kizaru was not portrayed the same in the war. He had more trouble defeating his opponent (imagine Aokiji vs Marco.. he certainly wouldn´t need Onigumo to defeat Marco), got overpowered while on-guard and only exchanged blows with Whitebeard after he took hits from tons of Navy soldiers and Akainu. Besides you are still ignoring all the portrayal _outside of Marineford._ We have Akainu and Aokiji duking it out as nigh-equals for the fleet admiral position while Kizaru has been ignored completely. We have Rayleigh- a first mate- injuring Kizaru with no difficulty whatsoever. We have the overall difference in powers between admirals and the fleet admiral candidates who have much more lethal abilities that can damage you just by _touching_ them. Then there is the matter of Fujitora- another admiral - fighting first mate Sabo who can´t even control his devil fruit or use awakening as almost equals with Fujitora even resorting to one of his strongest attacks "gravity blade raging tiger" with no effect whatsoever.

Now on to your other arguments. Big Mom is literally the only yonko even comparable to an admiral the other 4 are all noticably above no ifs and buts. So you can downplay her all you want and put the admirals above her it does not matter. Amonst the other yonko we have Shanks the guy with potentially strongest conqueror´s haki in the series. Nobody ever would dare to compare him to Kizaru or Fujitora.. they´d get high-diffed at most. Then there is healthy Whitebeard the strongest man in the world- again no contest. The strongest creature- same thing. And Blackbeard the guy with the strongest paramecia and logia who is going to rival even eos Luffy and Shanks in strength. What you say about these guys to diminish their strength is just ridiculous and I won´t even bother with it. You know exactly what is wrong with these arguments, I don´t need to point it out.

Kizaru has been humbled as well. He was so embarassed by old Rayleigh being capable to stop him he even pointed it out himself. What Fujitora did is still not as impressive as what the yonko bring to the table. They have world´s strongest titles, rival other world´s strongest title holders, hold the strongest devil fruits in history, fight with the likes of Prime Roger, Prime Sengoku and Prime Garp and showcase the strongest haki in the story. No matter what Fujitora did and will do it is not comparable to that. And most of these yonkos didn´t even fight yet. That tells you a lot. Yonkos are above admirals period.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## drew8324 (Jan 15, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> That's because replacing an Admiral is much easier. It isn't related to strength. An Emperor needs a powerful crew, territories in the New World and influence as well as recognition by other pirates and Marines. Admirals on the other hand only need to be conscripted and be strong enough for the position. That's why Blackbeard became a Yonkou a year and the Admirals were replaced. He slowly began taking Whitebeard's territories and forces the Whitebeard remnants in a showdown, which obviously takes much more time than a world-wide military conscription.



No one strength wise is compared to Yonko while we've seen numerous non admirals put a fight against admirals. Everyone that stepped to WB at MF was 1shotted & the "STRONGEST" Admiral himself was 2shotted(admittedly Akainu put in a bit of work). Now Remember this. As far as the series has portrayed up to this date the Admirals are always looking inferior to the Yonko.


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## drew8324 (Jan 15, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Now I don't want to appear rude or anything, but that answer seems quite dishonest.



More dishonest than Akainu tricking Squardo so they can injure an Old Man on his deathbed. However yes Akainu did hurt him. However he went to solo Blackbeard right after. 

Keep that in mind Dunno


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## drew8324 (Jan 15, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> The bold is exactly what I support as well. The admirals are not meant to balance out the yonko, the fleet admiral does. The admirals and yonko top commanders are both second fiddle to the yonko and fleet admiral. We´ve only seen admiral Kizaru fight first mates, we´ve only seen admiral Fujitora fight a first mate and top commander level guys. And we have- and never will- see them fight anyone above that. Who is going to fight Luffy at the end of the story? That´s right Fleet admiral Akainu and yonkos. Who are admirals going to fight? The subordinates and/or supernova allies. This illustrates the food chain very clearly.



Blackbeard final villain lol. Shu3t Sabo might beat Akainu eos not before Luffy punches him but still nonetheless.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 15, 2018)

@DiscoZoro20 

It's pretty hypocritical of you to cite/refer to Marco vs Kizaru which was barely a few pages long to imply parity of portrayal between the two and then dismiss Whitebeard vs Kizaru as a mere skirmish. If you're going to call one a skirmish & ignore it, then it's only fair you do the same to the other ........ neither of them came close to a proper Aokiji vs Akainu, Luffy vs Doflamingo etc etc style full on fight. 




And lol ......... the damage control is real. Prior to this arc BM as a yonkou was meant to be on a higher level to the Admirals and now she's the only who may be comparable to the Admirals. You're really going all out to protect your fictional tier-lists aren't you? 


As I said to drewboy (Magnet > Drew tbh tbf) over there, you guys are *never going *to learn until it's too late. Shanks has demonstrated zilch to imply he's categorically above the Admirals and neither has Teach for that matter - they'll also have some bad moments when the time comes. Heck even the best of them Kaido will inevitably get some bad portrayal during Wano, though probably nothing as egregious as BM (simply by virtue of his gender).

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 15, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> No one strength wise is compared to Yonko while we've seen numerous non admirals put a fight against admirals. Everyone that stepped to WB at MF was 1shotted & the "STRONGEST" Admiral himself was 2shotted(admittedly Akainu put in a bit of work). Now Remember this. As far as the series has portrayed up to this date the Admirals are always looking inferior to the Yonko.


All the Admirals themselves clashed with Whitebeard equally, when he was relatively fine, the strongest of the Yonkou. Akainu was neaery knocked out after the island splitter indeed, but not after he took half of Whitebeard's head.(It was a surprise attack. There's that to consider, but seeing how Akainu had a free hit when Whitebeard's heart attack occurred, I chose to ignire this fact.)

The only Yonkou we've seen in action are Whitebeard and Big Mom. Whitebeard has been more impressive than the Admirals, but he is stronger than the other Yonkou too, although not far away. Big Mom on the other hand...Simply put, it took the likes of Whitebeard, Shanks or Marco to stop Akainu when he went on rampage during the war. Big Mom's performance has been poor to say the least. Brook blitzed her mid attack, Chopper tanked her hits, not to mention her missing the strawhats several times in the Seducing Woods. Replace Big Mom with Akainu and everyone would be crushed by now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## drew8324 (Jan 15, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> @DiscoZoro20
> 
> It's pretty hypocritical of you to cite/refer to Marco vs Kizaru which was barely a few pages long to imply parity of portrayal between the two and then dismiss Whitebeard vs Kizaru as a mere skirmish. If you're going to call one a skirmish & ignore it, then it's only fair you do the same to the other ........ neither of them came close to a proper Aokiji vs Akainu, Luffy vs Doflamingo etc etc style full on fight.
> 
> ...



Should I tack on a 'Tier Specialist" as you do nearly EVERY comment you disapprove of or user you have angst against.

Now I've already cited evidence to cement my theories and ALL of them stand true to this day. You can go find post back in 2015 when I was 15-16 saying BM could barely take 1 admiral but will for surely win & Shanks & Kaido > by a comparable margin.


But Thanks Admiral Kizaru for sharing your unparalleled knowledge at light speed nearly every time someone comments.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## drew8324 (Jan 15, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> All the Admirals themselves clashed with Whitebeard equally, when he was relatively fine, the strongest of the Yonkou. Akainu was neaery knocked out after the island splitter indeed, but not after he took half of Whitebeard's head.(It was a surprise attack. There's that to consider, but seeing how Akainu had a free hit when Whitebeard's heart attack occurred, I chose to ignire this fact.)
> 
> The only Yonkou we've seen in action are Whitebeard and Big Mom. Whitebeard has been more impressive than the Admirals, but he is stronger than the other Yonkou too, although not far away. Big Mom on the other hand...Simply put, it took the likes of Whitebeard, Shanks or Marco to stop Akainu when he went on rampage during the war. Big Mom's performance has been poor to say the least. Brook blitzed her mid attack, Chopper tanked her hits, not to mention her missing the strawhats several times in the Seducing Woods. Replace Big Mom with Akainu and everyone would be crushed by now.



I can't debate further if we have to argue along the lines that Marineford Whitebeard> his colleagues at the same level. That right there is just some huckabee.


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## drew8324 (Jan 15, 2018)

And true to his title within 2 mins of my latest remark (not being this one) I was grafted & nominated by yours truly @Admiral Kizaru 


Keeping the OL safe at unrivaled speeds

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Dunno (Jan 15, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> I can't debate further if we have to argue along the lines that Marineford Whitebeard> his colleagues at the same level. That right there is just some huckabee.


Whitebeard was the WSM. He was canonically stronger than the other Yonkou.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 15, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> I can't debate further if we have to argue along the lines that Marineford Whitebeard> his colleagues at the same level. That right there is just some huckabee.


Whitebeard was the strongest in Marineford. There's a reason that we get a big box from Oda reading:"World's Strongest Man," when we first meet him. That, and countless other statements from various characters. We risk on going off topic anyway.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gohara (Jan 15, 2018)

drew is likely referring specifically to an ill and battle worn version of Old Whitebeard's character.  Titles aren't going to be taken away from characters just because they're nerfed for a specific Arc.  Like how Vista didn't become co-world's greatest swordsman from matching up on par with Mihawk.  Except Mihawk is even less nerfed.

As for Zoro being hypocritical for accepting a sample clash as evidence, again, there are many more panels of top Yonkou Commander level characters matching up on par with fully healed Admirals than there are that one panel of a nerfed version of Old Whitebeard's character vs. Akainu.  If there were only one panel for each argument then okay, I can see how that might be hypocritical.  Furthermore couldn't that argument if anything be reversed?  Since some Admiral => Yonkou fans are throwing out many tens of panels as evidence in favor for like one panel?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 15, 2018)

Old WB at MF still has the greatest manga feat, context aside. Blitzed an admiral that specializes in hearing silent approaches, ate a couple of named attacks from Red Dog and still managed to put him in the ground along with his entire workplace.

A real life example would be if someone kicked your ass so violently in front of your job that he destroyed your office as a result of excess energy spent putting your face in the dirt. And the person that did this to you had a couple of heart attacks just minutes before, got shot a couple of times, got stabbed repeatedly, and was a senior citizen.


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 15, 2018)

Gohara said:


> drew is likely referring specifically to an ill and battle worn version of Old Whitebeard's character.  Titles aren't going to be taken away from characters just because they're nerfed for a specific Arc.  Like how Vista didn't become co-world's greatest swordsman from matching up on par with Mihawk.  Except Mihawk is even less nerfed.
> 
> As for Zoro being hypocritical for accepting a sample clash as evidence, again, there are many more panels of top Yonkou Commander level characters matching up on par with fully healed Admirals than there are that one panel of a nerfed version of Old Whitebeard's character vs. Akainu.  If there were only one panel for each argument then okay, I can see how that might be hypocritical.  Furthermore couldn't that argument if anything be reversed?  Since some Admiral => Yonkou fans are throwing out many tens of panels as evidence in favor for like one panel?



I never understand what panels you guys are talking about. I've never seen a panel in this manga's entire history that gave any indication an admiral was on the same level as a first mate. Aokiji used a move that froze an entire tsunami and portion of the ocean in mid air. That is far beyond the scale of anything any first mate has shown. Marco can regen, but how does he fight against that? How does Jozu? Aokiji has shown repeatedly how quickly he can freeze entire areas, and he can do this to characters like Doflamingo and WB instantly. Katakuri has shown nothing that makes me think he can stop Ice Age. Most characters can't stop a move like that. Aokiji probably didn't ice age Jozu because of the fact his comrades surrounded him, but more likely because Oda didn't want to go to in-depth for all these different fights during MF. 

WB's entire hype was built around how destructive he and his DF were. His fruit was feared because of it's powers, and people often fear DF users for their powers. The admirals have the best DF's in the world. There is no realistic way most characters can even hope to stand against a serious admiral. The scale is too much.

All I hear about is first mates off panel performances as the biggest justifications for why they're admiral level, but its clear by looking at the terrain that the admirals clearly haven't used some of their more devastating attacks. They also all have the ability to fight for days on end with all of that power. 

I'll concede that the first mates are on admiral level if someone can present a scenario where Katakuri could possibly defend against an Ice Age attack, a Great Eruption, or the laser spam Kizaru used on Marco.


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## Gohara (Jan 15, 2018)

But you're not necessarily disagreeing that the panels of those referenced clashes exist.  You're simply disagreeing that those even clashes represent enough evidence for both ranks of characters being around the same level.  Which I do disagree with but that's irrelevant to the point that I'm making.  Which is that it doesn't really make any sense to accuse Zoro for being a hypocrite when he has many tens of panels to reference of top Yonkou Commander level characters clashing with Admirals and neither side having a notable advantage and he's taking all of those panels over the 1 panel of Akainu's feat.  Especially if the accuser(s) are taking that 1 panel of Akainu's feat over the many tens of panels that Zoro can reference.

But that being said to respond to some of your other points:

"I've never seen a panel in this manga's entire history that gave any indication an admiral was on the same level as a first mate."

But for what reason should we dismiss all the top Yonkou Commander vs. Admirals confrontations?  You mention that the Admirals do not use all of their top techniques.  But why should we assume that the same doesn't also apply to the top Yonkou Commander level characters?  And if Oda really wanted fans to see the Admirals as being significantly > those characters why not take many of the opportunities that he's had so far to demonstrate that?  He's not necessarily obligated to but it seems somewhat odd that he hasn't done so at least once yet.

You also mention Akainu's and Aokiji's level of stamina.  Which are amazing no doubt.  But we have no idea what level of stamina top Yonkou Commander level characters have when matching up against characters who are almost equal to them in skills.  But we do know that Ace while being a level if not a league inferior to top Yonkou Commander level was able to do so for 5 days.  And that Lord Jack, who is arguably around the minimum of top Yonkou Commander level, is able to match up against other characters for 5 days without much of a problem.  I'm not going to automatically assume that Lord Jack can do that for 10 days, although it's not an unreasonable possibility.  But if his character can do that for 5 days without much of a problem 7-8 days at minimum seems like a reasonable guess.  And Yonkou First Mates are likely a level superior to Lord Jack.

"Aokiji used a move that froze an entire tsunami and portion of the ocean in mid air. That is far beyond the scale of anything any first mate has shown."

How do we determine that though?  And that's also something that Kizaru hasn't shown to be able to do.  But do you consider Aokiji to be a level superior to Kizaru?  Lord Oven can heat an ocean but Lord Katakuri who can't effect an ocean to that same scale is significantly superior to his character.  Ace has shown more destructive capabilities than Vista and yet many Admiral => Yonkou fans rank Vista superior to Ace.  And if we were to assume that destructive capabilities= rank then doesn't that suggest that Blackbeard is a level if not a league superior to the Admirals?  Since Whitebeard's character has the most destructive Devil Fruit skills and now Blackbeard has those plus another one of the most destructive Devil Fruit skills.  In which case we have 3 if not arguably 4 Yonkou with direct superior portrayal to the Admirals.

"Katakuri has shown nothing that makes me think he can stop Ice Age"

A character inferior to Lord Katakuri has shown that he can break out of Aokiji's ice.  So we have no evidence that freezing Lord Katakuri would automatically work.

As for how Lord Katakuri would defend against the other Admirals.  For the lasers Lord Katakuri can use Observation Haki and dodge them.  And Lord Katakuri has far superior defense to characters who have shown to be able to withstand Kizaru's lasers.  Lord Katakuri can also use Observation Haki against lava.  With Akainu having both amazing offense and defense though I can see a good argument being made for him besting Lord Katakuri though.

I'm curious to see your answer as to how the Admirals avoid having Mochi seeped into their bodies while fending off Lord Katakuri as Mochi is appearing from every direction?


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## drew8324 (Jan 16, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Whitebeard was the WSM. He was canonically stronger than the other Yonkou.


Big Mom Canonically has an "Iron Body" just like Vergo who Canonically has an "Iron Body" am I supposed to assume they are the same.??


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## drew8324 (Jan 16, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> Whitebeard was the strongest in Marineford. There's a reason that we get a big box from Oda reading:"World's Strongest Man," when we first meet him. That, and countless other statements from various characters. We risk on going off topic anyway.



Check my reply to Dunno


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## Quipchaque (Jan 16, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> @DiscoZoro20
> 
> It's pretty hypocritical of you to cite/refer to Marco vs Kizaru which was barely a few pages long to imply parity of portrayal between the two and then dismiss Whitebeard vs Kizaru as a mere skirmish. If you're going to call one a skirmish & ignore it, then it's only fair you do the same to the other ........ neither of them came close to a proper Aokiji vs Akainu, Luffy vs Doflamingo etc etc style full on fight.



You are right. The problem is we don´t have anything else to gauge Marco´s strength so what other than Marco vs Kizaru could we use for strength comparison? Besides it´s as Gohara said that portrayal is pretty consistent with other instances of first Mate vs Admiral clashes so it´s clearly intended by the author. Also there are clear differences in these 2 scuffles. For one we know for a fact that Whitebeard was weakened and at a healthy state he would clobber Kizaru... and secondly Whitebeard completely dismissed what Kizaru did and didn´t take him serious at all. None of this could be said about the clash between Marco/Kiz.. also keep in mind that the Marco/Kiz clash was more emphasized by their repeated meetings so I dare say if all of that is considered, it is legit portrayal. Besides what´s the difference anyway to what you are doing? You say Kizaru is superior just because he didn´t take damage from 1 kick and because he could take out Marco with Kairoseki(and only temporarily at that until the cuffs were removed again.. so even that is meaningless).




> And lol ......... the damage control is real. Prior to this arc BM as a yonkou was meant to be on a higher level to the Admirals and now she's the only who may be comparable to the Admirals. You're really going all out to protect your fictional tier-lists aren't you?



I challenge you to show me where I ever said that I considered Big Mom superior to any admiral- let alone noticably. I always thought that Big Mom will be weaker than the other yonko and that as the weakest yonko she could be at least comparable to admirals. I can´t speak for everyone else but you certainly never heard that of me.




> As I said to drewboy (Magnet > Drew tbh tbf) over there, you guys are *never going *to learn until it's too late. Shanks has demonstrated zilch to imply he's categorically above the Admirals and neither has Teach for that matter - they'll also have some bad moments when the time comes. Heck even the best of them Kaido will inevitably get some bad portrayal during Wano, though probably nothing as egregious as BM (simply by virtue of his gender).



Shanks has the best conqueror´s haki feat so far which btw is being portrayed as the strongest haki form, stopped Kaido, stopped the war, is being portrayed as Luffy´s role model, shares a rivalry with Mihawk the world´s strongest swordsman, effortlessly blocked Akainu (which by your definition means that Shanks is superior since Shanks didn´t take any damage right?), split the heaven itself, shares a rivalry with BB that will only conclude at eos when Blackbeard is already Pirate King tier and could block the slash of a somewhat healthy Whitebeard. I don´t know how you could ever consider him merely admiral level that is absurd. Kaido won´t ever get bad portrayal as the strongest of them all you can count on that. If you consider losing at one point after fighting Luffy the guy who will defeat everyone on his path anyway as bad portrayal then by all means be my guest but as I said it´s bound to happen everyone.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 16, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Whitebeard was the WSM. He was canonically stronger than the other Yonkou.



In your opinion is Pirate King Luffy at the age of 70 with heart attacks going to be superior to Prime Akainu, Blackbeard and World´s strongest swordsman Zoro?


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 16, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> Check my reply to Dunno


The comparison doesn't stand because of the sole fact that Whitebeard's title was attributed to him by the author. Character statements simply reinforce it.


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## Dunno (Jan 16, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> Big Mom Canonically has an "Iron Body" just like Vergo who Canonically has an "Iron Body" am I supposed to assume they are the same.??



She does not canonically have an iron body. Characters in the manga might have canonically stated so, but character statements are not considered canon. What the author states or shows on panel is canon. For example that Kizaru is an Admiral or the Luffy and co. invaded EL. Character statements are stuff that the characters in the manga say, and they are not canon. BM having an iron body or being invulnerable is one example, and Pica being able to take care of everyone on Dressrosa by himself is another one. 

Canon =/= Non-canon



DiscoZoro20 said:


> In your opinion is Pirate King Luffy at the age of 70 with heart attacks going to be superior to Prime Akainu, Blackbeard and World´s strongest swordsman Zoro?



If Oda states that Luffy at the age of 70 is the WSM at that time, then he is going to be stronger than everyone else at that time as well. Old Whitebeard was the WSM, meaning that at the time, he was the strongest man alive. After the TS, someone else could be stronger than WB was pre-TS, but pre-TS, WB was the strongest. If Luffy is only called the PK at the age of 70 and not the WSM, then someone else could be stronger, since being the WSM isn't a requirement for being the PK.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 16, 2018)

Dunno said:


> If Oda states that Luffy at the age of 70 is the WSM at that time, then he is going to be stronger than everyone else at that time as well. Old Whitebeard was the WSM, meaning that at the time, he was the strongest man alive. After the TS, someone else could be stronger than WB was pre-TS, but pre-TS, WB was the strongest. If Luffy is only called the PK at the age of 70 and not the WSM, then someone else could be stronger, since being the WSM isn't a requirement for being the PK.



You didn´t answer my question. I didn´t ask if Oda will state that Luffy is the strongest man at the age of 70. I asked if *in your opinion* Pirate King Luffy at age 70 who also has heart attacks is going to be stronger than the mentioned 3. So, what is your answer?


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## Dunno (Jan 16, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You didn´t answer my question. I didn´t ask if Oda will state that Luffy is the strongest man at the age of 70. I asked if *in your opinion* Pirate King Luffy at age 70 who also has heart attacks is going to be stronger than the mentioned 3. So, what is your answer?



Probably Prime Big Mom, maybe Prime Akainu, probably not Prime Zoro and definitely not Prime Blackbeard. I don't really see what this has to do with the topic being discussed though?


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## Quipchaque (Jan 16, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Probably Prime Big Mom, maybe Prime Akainu, probably not Prime Zoro and definitely not Prime Blackbeard. I don't really see what this has to do with the topic being discussed though?



Because it makes no sense to believe that Whitebeard in his condition shortly before his death was still the strongest just because he still held the title. And you technically agree with that if you say the same thing about Prime Luffy. That´s what I wanted to point out with my example.


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## Dunno (Jan 16, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Because it makes no sense to believe that Whitebeard in his condition shortly before his death was still the strongest just because he still held the title. And you technically agree with that if you say the same thing about Prime Luffy. That´s what I wanted to point out with my example.


It does make sense. If he only held the title, then you would have a point. If we only had charcater statements pointing him out as the WSM, it wouldn't necessarily be true. Not we have Oda straight up stating that he is though, which is a whole other story. And what does comparing old Luffy to current prime characters have anything to do with it? We're not comparing old WB to Prime Roger, Prime Rayleigh or Prime Garp, we're comparing him to the characters who are currently alive and in the states they currently are. A more appropriate comparison would be Old Luffy vs Prime Coby, and there I would pick Luffy any day of the week. 

Prime Roger > Old WB > the rest


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## Quipchaque (Jan 16, 2018)

Dunno said:


> It does make sense. If he only held the title, then you would have a point. If we only had charcater statements pointing him out as the WSM, it wouldn't necessarily be true. Not we have Oda straight up stating that he is though, which is a whole other story. And what does comparing old Luffy to current prime characters have anything to do with it? We're not comparing old WB to Prime Roger, Prime Rayleigh or Prime Garp, we're comparing him to the characters who are currently alive and in the states they currently are. A more appropriate comparison would be Old Luffy vs Prime Coby, and there I would pick Luffy any day of the week.
> 
> Prime Roger > Old WB > the rest



Oda does not state this. He just tell us that Whitebeard holds the title which was appropriate until he became sick. As I already said I compared Old Luffy to prime characters because it is the same scenario for old Whitebeard and current Prime characters. And we have Whitebeard himself admitting his own weakness. Alongside Crocodile, Marco, Akainu and the random guy pre-Marineford all pointing it out as well. Do you not realise how much you are trying to ridicule the mid generation? They are all op top tiers and you honestly believe an old relict from the past can still surpass that? Honestly no. Just no.


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## Dunno (Jan 16, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Oda does not state this. He just tell us that Whitebeard holds the title which was appropriate until he became sick. As I already said I compared Old Luffy to prime characters because it is the same scenario for old Whitebeard and current Prime characters. And we have Whitebeard himself admitting his own weakness. Alongside Crocodile, Marco, Akainu and the random guy pre-Marineford all pointing it out as well. Do you not realise how much you are trying to ridicule the mid generation? They are all op top tiers and you honestly believe an old relict from the past can still surpass that? Honestly no. Just no.


Whether you choose to believe in canon or not is up to you, but it is canon that Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 16, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are right. The problem is we don´t have anything else to gauge Marco´s strength so what other than Marco vs Kizaru could we use for strength comparison? Besides it´s as Gohara said that portrayal is pretty consistent with other instances of first Mate vs Admiral clashes so it´s clearly intended by the author. Also there are clear differences in these 2 scuffles. For one we know for a fact that Whitebeard was weakened and at a healthy state he would clobber Kizaru... and secondly Whitebeard completely dismissed what Kizaru did and didn´t take him serious at all. None of this could be said about the clash between Marco/Kiz.. also keep in mind that the Marco/Kiz clash was more emphasized by their repeated meetings so I dare say if all of that is considered, it is legit portrayal. Besides what´s the difference anyway to what you are doing? You say Kizaru is superior just because he didn´t take damage from 1 kick and because he could take out Marco with Kairoseki(and only temporarily at that until the cuffs were removed again.. so even that is meaningless).



Honestly you're grasping at straws man to nitpick minute difference to support your powerlevelz, when both really were just minor skirmishes in the clusterfuck that was MF - you don't see me making a case that Kizaru = WB given his good portrayal against him there.


Look, Marco was the *second strongest fighter* on the WB pirates side. Given that, it was natural that Oda would set up some clashes between him and an Admiral, given the context that it was ostensibly meant to be a war situation.  

Same thing applies to Mihawk/Vista and Aokiji/Jozu. I mean what else is he going to do? Have Kizaru and the others sit on the sidelines and not clash with their equivalent ranked counterparts on the other side simply because from a power level point of view the sides weren't equal? That'd be ridiculous. 

No I don't think Kizaru is superior because of only how he handled that "skirmish" with Marco. I think he's superior because his (and all of the other admiral's) overall hype, feats and portrayal are vastly better than Marco & the rest of the other FM's for that matter. That's what you go on when you don't have proper full-on confrontations to go on. 

It's very simple. Big Meme aside, characters like Admirals & Yonkous are treated with the utmost respect by Oda. He spends ages designing and drawing them and for the Admirals he bases them on legendary figures in Japanese cinema that he reveres. He gives them epic feats of gigantic scale, unparalleled by others, to introduce them and they all have enormous status & gravitas in the manga - whenever they're on a panel they dominate the scene and that's what people focus on. 

Yonkou FM's simply don't have close to that level of portrayal. Heck we're likely to see one go down already to Luffy very soon. 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> I challenge you to show me where I ever said that I considered Big Mom superior to any admiral- let alone noticably. I always thought that Big Mom will be weaker than the other yonko and that as the weakest yonko she could be at least comparable to admirals. I can´t speak for everyone else but you certainly never heard that of me.



Look I wasn't referring to you specifically but I've been on this forum for years now and very active in these sort of discussions and so I've seen _a lot of damage control_ over the past year from the folks who've held similar mindsets as yours that viewed the Yonkou as having untouchable portrayal compared to the Admirals.This arc should have brought some humility to some of these guys (and tbf some have taken it on board) about this but instead in an attempt to protect their tierlists, what's happened is that BM has been isolated and people have treated her like an outlier ....... which is statistically stupid as we've only got five data points in total to look at. 

I'm obviously not going to search through your entire history of posts so I'll take your word for it.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Shanks has the best conqueror´s haki feat so far which btw is being portrayed as the strongest haki form, stopped Kaido, stopped the war, is being portrayed as Luffy´s role model, shares a rivalry with Mihawk the world´s strongest swordsman, effortlessly blocked Akainu (which by your definition means that Shanks is superior since Shanks didn´t take any damage right?), split the heaven itself, shares a rivalry with BB that will only conclude at eos when Blackbeard is already Pirate King tier and could block the slash of a somewhat healthy Whitebeard. I don´t know how you could ever consider him merely admiral level that is absurd. Kaido won´t ever get bad portrayal as the strongest of them all you can count on that. If you consider losing at one point after fighting Luffy the guy who will defeat everyone on his path anyway as bad portrayal then by all means be my guest but as I said it´s bound to happen everyone.



Akainu has a bigger dick than Shanks. That's just as relevant to bring up as Shanks superior CoC given how useless it is in the scope of a top tier fight. 

The rest of it is just mindless fluff. Sure it's impressive for Shanks and indicates he's obviously strong but I could just as easily write a similar paragraph highlighting Akainu's godly portrayal and significance (foreshadowing to be a FV candidate, only person to have permanently marked Luffy, immense plot relevance, MVP of the war, only person we know that's actually outright defeated a top tier etc etc) and likewise similar paragraphs for the other top tiers. It's nothing special to list for a top tier and the fact that's all you (and other Shanks fans) have to cling onto is indicative of how little actual material of any tangible worth Shanks has in his favour at the moment. 

The only one who's got some discernible portrayal to indicate he's above other top tiers is Kaido. No one else.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 17, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Honestly you're grasping at straws man to nitpick minute difference to support your powerlevelz, when both really were just minor skirmishes in the clusterfuck that was MF - you don't see me making a case that Kizaru = WB given his good portrayal against him there.


 
Yep both were just skirmishes but again I ask you what else do you want to use to judge Marco´s powerlevel? You are trying to put him at a lower rank than so far depicted without even seeing him fight properly, it makes no sense. it´s different with Whitebeard we _know_ that his skirmish with Kizaru is not a true power comparison so it is much easier to discard. 



> Look, Marco was the *second strongest fighter* on the WB pirates side. Given that, it was natural that Oda would set up some clashes between him and an Admiral, given the context that it was ostensibly meant to be a war situation.
> 
> Same thing applies to Mihawk/Vista and Aokiji/Jozu. I mean what else is he going to do? Have Kizaru and the others sit on the sidelines and not clash with their equivalent ranked counterparts on the other side simply because from a power level point of view the sides weren't equal? That'd be ridiculous.



Yeah but it was not a given that Oda would portray those clashes as even matches. Oda could have easily chosen to make it look like the scene with Marco and Garp to show a reasonable gap or heck he could have drawn scenes like the Akainu/Marco skirmish with the ridiculous filler in which Marco is sent flying by Akainu. Or Kizaru finding easy ways to exploit Marco´s carelessness without outside help similar to what Akainu and Aokiji did in their respective battles...but he didn´t. Go figure why.



> No I don't think Kizaru is superior because of only how he handled that "skirmish" with Marco. I think he's superior because his (and all of the other admiral's) overall hype, feats and portrayal are vastly better than Marco & the rest of the other FM's for that matter. That's what you go on when you don't have proper full-on confrontations to go on.



That´s the problem tho. Admirals don´t have superior hype, feats and portrayal. They´ve merely shown better aoe but aoe is not everything in a battle.



> It's very simple. Big Meme aside, characters like Admirals & Yonkous are treated with the utmost respect by Oda. He spends ages designing and drawing them and for the Admirals he bases them on legendary figures in Japanese cinema that he reveres. He gives them epic feats of gigantic scale, unparalleled by others, to introduce them and they all have enormous status & gravitas in the manga - whenever they're on a panel they dominate the scene and that's what people focus on.
> 
> Yonkou FM's simply don't have close to that level of portrayal. Heck we're likely to see one go down already to Luffy very soon.



If admirals are treated with utmost respect then why can Old Rayleigh injure Kizaru and ridicule him to the point that he himself admits that he is embarrassed?.. why can Sabo without full control of his devil fruit completely stop Fujitora in his tracks even against his named attacks without using any named attacks himself? Why does Doflamingo fear fighting the likes of Kaido and Aokiji but not the likes of Fujitora? Why can the likes of Luffy and Zoro deal with a held back Fujitora while holding back a huge chunk of their powers themselves? And why do none of the admirals hold enough significance that their future roles will carry them to fights against Yonko and pirate king tier characters. And last but not least why are they treated as subordinates in the marine hierarchy unlike a yonko? What charactes Oda bases them on is irrelevant that doesn´t increase their strength. Mihawk is based on Dracula, that wouldn´t give him a free pass to defeat Shanks. Django is based on Michael Jackson... yet he isn´t admiral level or above. Nami is based on Oda´s wife and she is nowhere near a powerful fighter. Oda simply likes to implement his favourite personalities into his story that´s all there is to it. Again Scale of attacks is not everything in a battle nor are their feats unparalleled -let alone will remain unparalleled in the future otherwise they would be the top 3 strongest characters in the series. Heck we´ve already seen feats from commanders that outclass admirals in some cases. Like Marco´s regeneration, Jozu´s diamond body and physical strength, Katakuri´s observation haki. Enormous status and domination is also wrong. At least not bigger status than yonko commanders let alone yonko first mates. I repeat for the millionth time.. they are just subordinates like the commanders in the grand scheme of things and they certainly didn´t dominate every character they´ve fought. You have to look back at all their fights if you seriously believe that. Even if you say yonko commanders are weaker because Luffy will defeat one of them  soon. Who is to say that doesn´t mean Luffy would be able to defeat an admiral at that point in time? Remember he is going to fight Kaido of all people in the next arc it´s time for you stop to treat Luffy like a mere supernova or a rookie.




> Look I wasn't referring to you specifically but I've been on this forum for years now and very active in these sort of discussions and so I've seen _a lot of damage control_ over the past year from the folks who've held similar mindsets as yours that viewed the Yonkou as having untouchable portrayal compared to the Admirals.This arc should have brought some humility to some of these guys (and tbf some have taken it on board) about this but instead in an attempt to protect their tierlists, what's happened is that BM has been isolated and people have treated her like an outlier ....... which is statistically stupid as we've only got five data points in total to look at.
> 
> I'm obviously not going to search through your entire history of posts so I'll take your word for it.



That´s good to hear. But again As the weakest yonko it is not at all stupid to isolate her because a group being on average stronger than another one (as in this case yonkos and admirals) doesn´t mean that for example the strongest admiral doesn´t rival the weakest yonko. It´s those peoples own fault to have a stupid mindset like that.




> Akainu has a bigger dick than Shanks. That's just as relevant to bring up as Shanks superior CoC given how useless it is in the scope of a top tier fight.



Nah that comparison doesn´t work mate. Conqueror´s haki has already shown a massive power output from Big Mom accidentally using it and Shanks using it in a very weak form. On top of that it is hailed as the haki that only the strongest rulers possess and if it did nothing that practically means Shanks has no fighting style or signifcant means to win battles. It´s also Luffy´s main forte and that is the main character mind you. You can´t be ignorant enough to believe that it won´t do  anything in combat just because Oda is playing his typical games with us.



> The rest of it is just mindless fluff. Sure it's impressive for Shanks and indicates he's obviously strong but I could just as easily write a similar paragraph highlighting Akainu's godly portrayal and significance (foreshadowing to be a FV candidate, only person to have permanently marked Luffy, immense plot relevance, MVP of the war, only person we know that's actually outright defeated a top tier etc etc) and likewise similar paragraphs for the other top tiers. It's nothing special to list for a top tier and the fact that's all you (and other Shanks fans) have to cling onto is indicative of how little actual material of any tangible worth Shanks has in his favour at the moment.



If the rest is just mindless stuff then why is it that probably like 80% of people consider Shanks a candidate for at least a top 5 strongest spot but noone does the same for the average admiral? Heck you even have to resort to bring up the fleet admiral and strongest admiral pre-skip to even find something comparable, that shows how formidable Shanks really is.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 17, 2018)

Shanks is below a governments dog like alot like to call WSS Mihawk. He is a mere Yonkou and compareable to other WS title holders and Admirals. He is below the PK which people tend to forget when they slide their fingers into his anus before they pump down his shaft with the other hand and lick the tip of his dick with their tongue.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 17, 2018)

Gohara said:


> But you're not necessarily disagreeing that the panels of those referenced clashes exist.  You're simply disagreeing that those even clashes represent enough evidence for both ranks of characters being around the same level.  Which I do disagree with but that's irrelevant to the point that I'm making.  Which is that it doesn't really make any sense to accuse Zoro for being a hypocrite when he has many tens of panels to reference of top Yonkou Commander level characters clashing with Admirals and neither side having a notable advantage and he's taking all of those panels over the 1 panel of Akainu's feat.  Especially if the accuser(s) are taking that 1 panel of Akainu's feat over the many tens of panels that Zoro can reference.
> 
> But that being said to respond to some of your other points:
> 
> ...



That doesn't explain at all how Katakuri can fight the admirals. They can warp/destroy entire islands with their strength alone. Katakuri can see 5 seconds in the future, it won't give him enough time to run away from a mile wide AOE that obliterates everything. Admirals scale is ridiculous, only a monster can truly fight them when they pull out the real punches. Oven's feat of warming up the ocean pales in comparison to Aokiji's tsunami freeze. Oven couldn't even get the cream to melt from the heat, or damage the ship. Aokiji completely halted a tsunami brought on by the WSS. That's a ridiculous feat, especially considering a Tsunami can have so much pressure it can rip apart land areas. If he can freeze that tsunami instantly, there isn't a character in this entire manga that could stop him from freezing them if he's close enough, not unless they have a DF that can counter, or they have the insane speed to clear out of the area. Katakuri's agility and speed are questionable since he got "stressed" over not being able to hit Luffy.

Speaking of stress, that's not a weakness that any of the "Katakuri is admiral level" believers bring up. He misses more and loses his CoO temporarily when he gets flustered, or stressed. Are we expected to believe Katakuri loses it while fighting Luffy, but he's just perfect composure when an admiral is dropping island crushers on him?

Doflamingo was helpless against Aokiji. Aokiji didn't even bother taking his hands out of his pockets to save his friend Smoker. Because he was that confident. Doflamingo didn't walk off for any reason other than he knew Aokiji would completely flatten him. Doflamingo's sneak attack for Fujitora was blocked easily. Fujitora blocked a G3 attack with no haki while he's holding up an island of debris. Kizaru took no damage from Marco attacking him. The admirals have shown time and time again that they are far and beyond anyone who isn't a yonkou.


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## drew8324 (Jan 17, 2018)

Dunno said:


> She does not canonically have an iron body. Characters in the manga might have canonically stated so, but character statements are not considered canon. What the author states or shows on panel is canon. For example that Kizaru is an Admiral or the Luffy and co. invaded EL. Character statements are stuff that the characters in the manga say, and they are not canon. BM having an iron body or being invulnerable is one example, and Pica being able to take care of everyone on Dressrosa by himself is another one.
> 
> Canon =/= Non-canon
> 
> ...



So when Kizaru himself states he is Light Speed that isnt Canon?? Oh okay.


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## Dunno (Jan 17, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> So when Kizaru himself states he is Light Speed that isnt Canon?? Oh okay.


No, it's not. It's canon that Kizaru has said so, but not that he is. If character statements were canon, then Pica > Fujitora + Sabo + Law + SHs and Moria + Oars > Kaido would be canon, and that would be weird.


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## Gohara (Jan 17, 2018)

@ Law.

*Kizaru
*
Lord Jack can also destroy Islands.

Kizaru hasn't shown the type of scale that the other Admirals have with their Devil Fruit skills so I'm not sure what your argument is for Kizaru vs. Lord Katakuri.  But Lord Katakuri's speed and Observation Haki combined serve as a good possible counter for Kizaru's speed.  Old Rayleigh can use his Observation Haki to keep up with Kizaru for example.  Lord Katakuri is > Gear 3rd Luffy who is > Fujitora in physical strength specifically.  So outside of Akainu I give Lord Katakuri an edge over the Admirals in physical strength but the Admirals might show more later on that might make me change my mind.  But with their speed arguably at least equalized having superior physical strength is a notable advantage.  It's not entirely clear how their stamina and durability skills compare yet.  But Pre Time Skip Supernova level characters can withstand some of Kizaru's lasers so Kizaru would likely need to successfully connect a lot of them to win that match up.  But with Lord Katakuri likely dodging many of them it's a question of whether or not Lord Katakuri can get through Kizaru's defense.  Which with offense that is superior to Gear 3rd Luffy's who knows?  There are also circumstances where Lord Katakuri might be able to seep Mochi into Kizaru's body.  He would have a head start with that strategy because of Observation Haki.  And while the Mochi is right behind Kizaru Lord Katakuri can clash with Kizaru in close quarters combat.  Can Kizaru fend off Lord Katakuri quickly enough to avoid the Mochi?

What you said about Marco not wounding Kizaru can be said about Kizaru not wounding Marco as well excluding when Marco was handcuffed with seastone.

*Aokiji*

Aokiji's ice freezing the environment doesn't necessarily mean much because his opponent isn't the environment but rather Lord Katakuri.  And if it were that easy why didn't Aokiji just freeze all the Yonkou Commanders in The Marineford War Arc?  In any case Aokiji needs to successfully freeze Lord Katakuri but so far we have yet to see him do so against a character of that caliber whereas we've seen a character inferior to Lord Katakuri break out of the ice.  Also we have no idea what the exact extent of Lord Katakuri's Observation Haki is yet.  In any case why would Lord Katakuri even run away to begin with?  Maybe he can use the preemptive advantage to force Aokiji into close quarters combat?  Maybe he kicks Aokiji?  Maybe he surrounds the environment and Aokiji with Mochi?  There are many strategies that Lord Katakuri can incorporate to prevent Aokiji from freezing the surroundings.  Assuming that Aokiji doing that would be a detriment at all anyways.  The Lord Oven feat isn't being compared to Aokiji's.  It's being compared to Lord Katakuri's not yet shown capability to do the same.  And yet Lord Katakuri is significantly superior to Lord Oven.  Which means that superior scale of effect on the environment =/= being superior in overall skills.  Plus and again there are the Admiral examples as well.  Fans can't argue that the Admirals are > other characters because of superior scale of effect on the environment without also arguing that most of the Admirals are >>>> Kizaru.

I don't see how Doflamingo was helpless when he helped himself break out of the ice without much of a problem.  Outside of that most of those points are speculative.  We have no idea what Aokiji was thinking and nothing about the scene at all indicates that any of those points are true.  If anything the fact that Aokiji didn't continue to pursue Doflamingo in the same chapter as talking about what a threat his character is to the universe suggests that he couldn't best Doflamingo without a significant amount of difficulty.  Unless Aokiji is cool with Doflamingo basically attempting to take over the universe and being antagonistic against many innocent characters.  But Aokiji is stated to have a strong sense of justice so why would he intentionally allow chaos in the universe when he can best Doflamingo without much of a problem?  Whereas Doflamingo actually has a good reason for not continuing that match up.  If Doflamingo is around the same level as Aokiji then he would still have to consider the possibility of Aokiji winning that match up, so no point in having that match up where his character has everything to lose if Aokiji wins that match up but nothing to gain from besting Aokiji.  And even if Doflamingo does win that match up it would likely take a long time for him to do so.  As that match up is happening who defends Dressrosa outside of his subordinates?  Doflamingo has everything to lose and nothing to gain regardless if he wins or loses that match up.  If Aokiji is significantly superior to Doflamingo then he has nothing to lose and a lot to gain.  Also Doflamingo intentionally ignoring Aokiji and still breaking out of the ice without much of a problem and laughing at Aokiji's face, in addition to showing that he's cool with challenging Fujitora, makes the argument that Doflamingo fears the Admirals a lot less convincing.

Kizaru likely walked away from his match up against Old Rayleigh even though he acknowledged that he's one of the top catches out there.  But does that necessarily mean that Kizaru fears Old Rayleigh?  Nah.  Maybe Kizaru didn't think that it was worth the possibility of Old Rayleigh winning that match up.  Maybe Kizaru thought that he would win but that the match up would take a long time.  But with The Marineford War Arc he had to be part of the war.  Unless Old Rayleigh simply outran Kizaru and that's why they didn't continue their match up.  But I'm pretty sure that Admiral => Yonkou fans aren't cool with the idea of Old Rayleigh having significantly superior speed than Kizaru.

*Fujitora
*
There are multiple ways that Lord Katakuri can potentially counter Fujitora's Meteors.  Because of Observation Haki he'll have a head start on any defensive strategies.  Which could include destroying them and/or creating some type of defensive net that either keeps the effects of the Meteors at long distance and/or possibly offsets them.  Of course he can also simply dodge them more efficiently than Fujitora.  Not only does he have superior speed feats so far but because of his Observation Haki he'll best Fujitora in a race to avoid the Meteors without much of a problem.  Fujitora can also attempt to use his gravity to slow down Lord Katakuri.  But Sabo has shown that he can maneuver around the gravity and Zoro has overpowered the gravity as well.  Which makes Fujitora successfully slowing down Lord Katakuri with gravity less convincing.

It's not yet entirely clear how skilled Fujitora is defensively.  Nor the level of Lord Katakuri's stamina and durability.

To respond to a couple other points:

Lord Katakuri didn't have any sense of urgency when complaining about Luffy dodging his techniques which suggests sarcasm.  Lord Katakuri saying "Wow I'm not use to being challenged that much" while showing no actual signs of concerns is like how Kizaru spoke to the Pre Time Skip Supernovas.  And Lord Katakuri hasn't shown an inability to land techniques on Luffy.  The sarcastic complaint is about Luffy being able to dodge some of them.

It's fair to bring up the lack of effectiveness that Observation Haki has compared to usual in specific circumstances but that applies to the Admirals and all types of Haki as well.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## drew8324 (Jan 18, 2018)

Dunno said:


> No, it's not. It's canon that Kizaru has said so, but not that he is. If character statements were canon, then Pica > Fujitora + Sabo + Law + SHs and Moria + Oars > Kaido would be canon, and that would be weird.



But then that statement is completely denied cause Pica < Zoro < Fujitora. 

How does that affect my previous statement?


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## Dunno (Jan 18, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> But then that statement is completely denied cause Pica < Zoro < Fujitora.
> 
> How does that affect my previous statement?


It's just to show that characters in One Piece aren't omniscient and always completely sincere. What a certain character says is in the best of cases what that character believes to be true, in which case it might be true, if the character knows what he or she is talking about. It might also be exaggerated or even a straight up lie depending on the speaker's agenda.

What Oda tells us or shows us is the author's point of view on the other hand, which is considered canon.


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## Quipchaque (Jan 18, 2018)

Dunno said:


> It's just to show that characters in One Piece aren't omniscient and always completely sincere. What a certain character says is in the best of cases what that character believes to be true, in which case it might be true, if the character knows what he or she is talking about. It might also be exaggerated or even a straight up lie depending on the speaker's agenda.
> 
> What Oda tells us or shows us is the author's point of view on the other hand, which is considered canon.



Honestly you don´t need characters to be omniscient to understand that a fruit user who owns the light fruit can travel at light speed. That is a completely rational and very likely correct assumption. Heck Kizaru even asked "have you ever been kicked at the speed of light?".. why would he say that if his fruit doesn´t give him lightspeed movement? You are making a big deal out of something that is very obvious for the average reader.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (Jan 18, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Honestly you don´t need characters to be omniscient to understand that a fruit user who owns the light fruit can travel at light speed. That is a completely rational and very likely correct assumption. Heck Kizaru even asked "have you ever been kicked at the speed of light?".. why would he say that if his fruit doesn´t give him lightspeed movement? You are making a big deal out of something that is very obvious for the average reader.


I agree that it's a fair assumption that Kizaru can move at the speed of light, and I actually think that it's true as well. Although we should keep in mind that the physics in One Piece are not the same as the physics in our world, so I don't think he moves at 300 000 kilometres per second. It's not canon though. I would also say that it's reasonable to assume that Kong is quite strong, but it's not canon yet.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 18, 2018)

Dunno said:


> I agree that it's a fair assumption that Kizaru can move at the speed of light, and I actually think that it's true as well. Although we should keep in mind that the physics in One Piece are not the same as the physics in our world, so I don't think he moves at 300 000 kilometres per second. It's not canon though. I would also say that it's reasonable to assume that Kong is quite strong, but it's not canon yet.



Fair enough. As long as you at least agree that it´s plausible we gucci.


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## J★J♥ (Jan 18, 2018)

I honestly cant see BM beating any Admiral or Yonkou considering how fucking retarded she is, well maybe Kaidou if he tries to commit suicide by a retard.


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## Big Mom (Jan 18, 2018)

Big Mom wins this with high difficulty

Reactions: Like 2


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 18, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yep both were just skirmishes but again I ask you what else do you want to use to judge Marco´s powerlevel? You are trying to put him at a lower rank than so far depicted without even seeing him fight properly, it makes no sense. it´s different with Whitebeard we _know_ that his skirmish with Kizaru is not a true power comparison so it is much easier to discard.



We use the totality of his portrayals, hype, relevance and general standing in the OP world to make a determination then and in all of those Marco and the rest of FM's pale in comparison to the Admirals. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yeah but it was not a given that Oda would portray those clashes as even matches. Oda could have easily chosen to make it look like the scene with Marco and Garp to show a reasonable gap or heck he could have drawn scenes like the Akainu/Marco skirmish with the ridiculous filler in which Marco is sent flying by Akainu. Or Kizaru finding easy ways to exploit Marco´s carelessness without outside help similar to what Akainu and Aokiji did in their respective battles...but he didn´t. Go figure why.



Even battles? That's your justification????? Give me a break. 

What did you expect was going to happen? That an Admiral would treat Marco/Jozu/Vista like complete rubbish & fodder in the space of a few minutes? Of course not, these guy are strong enough for *no-one *to do that to them and to hold their own against anyone in the world for at least a certain period of time. That though _does _not imply equality.

I mean the logic you're clinging on to is that "_lol an Admiral/Mihawk couldn't overpower Marco/Jozu/Vista in a quick skirmish so they're equal" ..... _can't you see how utterly asinine that line of thinking is?




DiscoZoro20 said:


> If admirals are treated with utmost respect then why can Old Rayleigh injure Kizaru and ridicule him to the point that he himself admits that he is embarrassed?.. why can Sabo without full control of his devil fruit completely stop Fujitora in his tracks even against his named attacks without using any named attacks himself? Why does Doflamingo fear fighting the likes of Kaido and Aokiji but not the likes of Fujitora? Why can the likes of Luffy and Zoro deal with a held back Fujitora while holding back a huge chunk of their powers themselves? And why do none of the admirals hold enough significance that their future roles will carry them to fights against Yonko and pirate king tier characters. And last but not least why are they treated as subordinates in the marine hierarchy unlike a yonko? What charactes Oda bases them on is irrelevant that doesn´t increase their strength. Mihawk is based on Dracula, that wouldn´t give him a free pass to defeat Shanks. Django is based on Michael Jackson... yet he isn´t admiral level or above. Nami is based on Oda´s wife and she is nowhere near a powerful fighter. Oda simply likes to implement his favourite personalities into his story that´s all there is to it. Again Scale of attacks is not everything in a battle nor are their feats unparalleled -let alone will remain unparalleled in the future otherwise they would be the top 3 strongest characters in the series. Heck we´ve already seen feats from commanders that outclass admirals in some cases. Like Marco´s regeneration, Jozu´s diamond body and physical strength, Katakuri´s observation haki. Enormous status and domination is also wrong. At least not bigger status than yonko commanders let alone yonko first mates. I repeat for the millionth time.. they are just subordinates like the commanders in the grand scheme of things and they certainly didn´t dominate every character they´ve fought. You have to look back at all their fights if you seriously believe that. Even if you say yonko commanders are weaker because Luffy will defeat one of them  soon. Who is to say that doesn´t mean Luffy would be able to defeat an admiral at that point in time? Remember he is going to fight Kaido of all people in the next arc it´s time for you stop to treat Luffy like a mere supernova or a rookie.



Wow there's a lot of half-truths, blatant falsehoods, falses equivalences and frankly piss-poor manga comprehension chucked into that gigantic paragraph. Going into each one in depth would take me forever but for the sake of brevity I'll try to be as brief for each one as I can:

- Getting stalled by Rayleigh is nothing for anyone to be ashamed off. Any Yonkou would have had the exact same thing happen to them in that situation. 

- It was literally stated by Sabo that Fujitora was joking around with him in order to stall time for his objectives. Read DR again. 

- Again re-read DR? Doflamingo can easily manipulate WG/Marines and inhibit the Admirals from doing their work. Kaido and his entire crew are under no such restraints. Not everything is to do with muh powerlevelz!!

- Another re-read DR for you. Fujitora basically supported Luffy/Zoro's mission and was even apologising to them that he even had to fight them after they helped him out in the casino. He was clearly putting in a token effort in for appearances sake and was never seriously attempting to harm them. Oda made a big deal about his conflicted feelings, his motivation and his real objectives. 

- Ok Oda. Akainu is _heavily _foreshadowed to fight a near or at PK Luffy, whereas it's highly likely that the others Admirals will take some part in the war fighting possibly EoS level Zoro or other similar level characters. Getting defeated by them at that point >>>>>> Getting humiliated by half a SH crew this early in the story. 

- Ermm because that's how the marine organisation works ..... just like any military structure you have a commander in chief and senior officers below that? I don't get your point here? 

- Unconfirmed and unfocused on homages for particular characters traits or the odd widely-used design inspirations (e.g. Dracula) =/= incredibly detailed carbon copy designs based off specific actors that are shoved into our faces. Oda's a noted huge fan of classic Japanese cinema and he specifically chose to honour some of his all time favourite legendary actors by basing the Admirals off them. Wait for Ryokugyu to be based off Toshiro Mifune to really bang the point in. 

- Who says AoE is everything they've got? Of course not, but the scale of AoE is an easy and obvious sign of just how elite they're intended to be viewed by us from Oda. 

Give Arlong Aokiji's fruit and he'll probably freeze a swimming pool max. Give Arlong WB's fruit and he'll probably be capable of bringing down a house max. Whereas Admiral/Yonkou characters tilt islands and freeze entire seas casually. Stop being dense about this. 

- Lol name me one Yonkou subordinate that has a best feat that's more impressive than an Admiral's best feat. I dare you. 





DiscoZoro20 said:


> That´s good to hear. But again As the weakest yonko it is not at all stupid to isolate her because a group being on average stronger than another one (as in this case yonkos and admirals) doesn´t mean that for example the strongest admiral doesn´t rival the weakest yonko. It´s those peoples own fault to have a stupid mindset like that.



Again for the love of god, there's only 5 of them! BM represents *20%* of the Yonkou that we will ever know off which is too significant to just ignore. 

Stop acting like she's a complete outlier! She may be weaker than the others but she's a rough indicator of what Oda has planned for the other Yonkou. Get ready to see some of the silly and unwarranted hype you've built up for the rest of the Yonkou come crashing down as well when the time comes. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nah that comparison doesn´t work mate. Conqueror´s haki has already shown a massive power output from Big Mom accidentally using it and Shanks using it in a very weak form. On top of that it is hailed as the haki that only the strongest rulers possess and if it did nothing that practically means Shanks has no fighting style or signifcant means to win battles. It´s also Luffy´s main forte and that is the main character mind you. You can´t be ignorant enough to believe that it won´t do  anything in combat just because Oda is playing his typical games with us.



It destroyed some rockets, whilst leaving everyone else in the room still conscious? Wow. That's really going to be effective against Admiral level fighters. 

No fighting style??????? He's a fucking *SWORDSMAN *and a top tier one at that! Isn't that good enough?? Dear god, the arrogance of Shanks fans always astounds me. Probably because you're so afraid of the implications of Mihawk's title you resort to making up head cannons about him being a haki god of whatever else you need to try and find a loophole to circumvent that. 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Isn't that good enough?
> 
> If the rest is just mindless stuff then why is it that probably like 80% of people consider Shanks a candidate for at least a top 5 strongest spot but noone does the same for the average admiral? Heck you even have to resort to bring up the fleet admiral and strongest admiral pre-skip to even find something comparable, that shows how formidable Shanks really is.



Well I'm glad you selected an arbitrary group of the "top five" to really concern yourself with and done a worldwide survey to confirm that Shanks is definitely in the top five of that list according to 80% of the fanbase. 

For a start, Kaido and Akainu are definitely above him having miles better portrayal and feats respectively. Mihawk as well given that Shanks predominantly appears to be a swordsman. The rest is then anyone's guess tbh. 

Personally, I'd place Shanks on the same grouping as Kizaru and Aokiji. Not on Akainu/Kaido's level but just above Fujitora and BM.

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## Raiden34 (Jan 19, 2018)

Big Mom has better feats, and better hype.

She simlpy overpowered Jinbe when she was at disadvantage against him. Jinbe was able to use the sea water, directly comes back from the sea by using his water techniques, uses sea attacks from the sea which is a great counter for Prometheus. And even when Zeus subdued by Nami's weather abilities, she still continue to dominate Jinbe on the sea and Jinbe was helpless against the size of Prometheus and he was running desperately. Fujitora never put an opponent like sea water amped Jinbe in this situation. I am not talking about regular Jinbe, this is sea water amped Jinbe which is at least 2x times stronger.

She one-shotted Vinsmoke Judge, who is around post-TS Sanji's level. As far as I am concerned, Fujtora can't one-shot Sanji, sure he would easily overpower him if he gets serious, but I highly doubt about the one-shot. She low-diffed G4 Luffy. We've seen that Luffy countered Fujitora's blows with G3, even send him flying with a G3 punch and wounded his left cheek, Fujitora only overpowered him when he get serious, and Luffy wasn't even using G4 which much more powerful and not comparable to G3. Big Mom no selling G4 punches is much better than anything Fujitora did so far.

As far as the hype goes, Fujitora hyped by Doflamingo in Green Bit, and by some fodder marines such as Maynard. But Maynard only hyped him when Marines doubt about his power when he matched with Sabo. And then Doflamingo stated that he must KILL Fujitora. He actually planned that I doubt he would plan to kill a Yonko such as Big Mom.

Big Mom stated to be unstoppable by Jinbe, and her children said no one can stop her. Katakuri should be around Sabo's level, and if Sabo can stop Fujitora, and if Katakuri can't stop Big Mom, the portrayal difference is obvious.

Big Mom high-diffs.

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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 19, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> As far as I am concerned, Fujtora can't one-shot Sanji.

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## Quipchaque (Jan 19, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> We use the totality of his portrayals, hype, relevance and general standing in the OP world to make a determination then and in all of those Marco and the rest of FM's pale in comparison to the Admirals.



That is your opinion. In terms of hype, portrayal and general standing in the op world they are exactly the same. Their hype as admiral rank is no bigger than being a top 3 commander. I do not know where you got the idea from that it´s a more prestigious title than being one of the very best soldiers of a freaking yonko. Then again your username is admiral Kizaru so what else should I have expected. The yonko and marines are portrayed as opposing forces it is only natural that the standings of their underlings would be the same. Trust me it is no coincidence that you have 1 leader and 3 top level fighters in each group. Fact of the matter is that they are portrayed as approximately even forces that cancel each other out. That´s how the balance of the 3 great powers works. If what you said were true then that would mean that Marines have 4 yonko level fighters against 1 yonko and 3 high high tiers. That is clearly contradicting what the manga has shown and stated. The only thing I agree with is that the admirals have more relevance which is 1 of the 2 reasons I would give them a very slight edge over first mates on average.




> Even battles? That's your justification????? Give me a break.
> 
> What did you expect was going to happen? That an Admiral would treat Marco/Jozu/Vista like complete rubbish & fodder in the space of a few minutes? Of course not, these guy are strong enough for *no-one *to do that to them and to hold their own against anyone in the world for at least a certain period of time. That though _does _not imply equality.



I already told you what I would expect to happen. That the admirals wouldn´t need distractions to establish a visible superiority and that Kizaru wouldn´t need outside help to do anything against Marco. Even if you disagree that they might be equals - which to be fair can be argued - at the very least you can´t deny that from current feats and portrayal a first mate could potentially give higher end of high-diff or possibly even extreme diff. Anything lower than that is just disrespectful.



> I mean the logic you're clinging on to is that "_lol an Admiral/Mihawk couldn't overpower Marco/Jozu/Vista in a quick skirmish so they're equal" ..... _can't you see how utterly asinine that line of thinking is?



No I can´t. I already gave you the reasons for that above.



> - Getting stalled by Rayleigh is nothing for anyone to be ashamed off. Any Yonkou would have had the exact same thing happen to them in that situation.



Getting stalled by Rayleigh- no. Getting stalled by _old_ Rayleigh- yes. Prime Marco got _obliterated_ by yonko level fighter as you always like to point out. _Old_ Rayleigh who didn´t fight for over 20 years and is very likely weaker than Marco could easily handle Kizaru and there was no indication whatsoever that he would share the same fate. In fact Garp even suggested they would need reinforcements to deal properly with him. That´s clearly a different portrayal compared to what a yonko got.



> - It was literally stated by Sabo that Fujitora was joking around with him in order to stall time for his objectives. Read DR again.



Yeah Fujitora was joking around.. and Sabo had trouble controlling his power and used less named attacks than Fujitora. Decent portrayal for both sides and again no indication of an admiral looking vastly superior to a first mate.



> - Again re-read DR? Doflamingo can easily manipulate WG/Marines and inhibit the Admirals from doing their work. Kaido and his entire crew are under no such restraints. Not everything is to do with muh powerlevelz!!



That "re-read DR" I´ll give right back to you. Fujitora was in a room alone with Doflamingo and just told him he will take care of Doflamingo later and Doflamingo responded fearlessly without hesitation that he should just try get rid of Fuji right at the spot then. There was no manipulation or outside help involved in that scene yet he was clearly less frightened of Fujitora than of a Kaido. Another clear portrayal difference between yonko and admirals.



> - Another re-read DR for you. Fujitora basically supported Luffy/Zoro's mission and was even apologising to them that he even had to fight them after they helped him out in the casino. He was clearly putting in a token effort in for appearances sake and was never seriously attempting to harm them. Oda made a big deal about his conflicted feelings, his motivation and his real objectives.



Irrelevant and completely missing the point. I am well aware that Fujitora supported Luffy/Zoro. He still attacked them and both parties were capable to withstand the assault with heavily restricted power. Somehow that reminds me of Luffy vs Katakuri, Luffy vs Doflamingo.. coincidence? I think not.



> - Ok Oda. Akainu is _heavily _foreshadowed to fight a near or at PK Luffy, whereas it's highly likely that the others Admirals will take some part in the war fighting possibly EoS level Zoro or other similar level characters. Getting defeated by them at that point >>>>>> Getting humiliated by half a SH crew this early in the story.



And here it is again.. an admiral fan bringing up Akainu to support the strength of the inferior admirals. What a convincing argument... not. And no it is not at all likely that zoro will fight an admiral. The admiral he would have to fight is Fujitora and you know full well that Fujitora will more than likely jump ship way before EOS and you completely ignore Sanji in that matter. If even pirate king 2.mate Sanji could compete and defeat an admiral then there is no doubt that means that _at the very least_ the strongest yonko first mates are incredibly close to admirals. If you do not understand that then I don´t know what else to say.



> - Ermm because that's how the marine organisation works ..... just like any military structure you have a commander in chief and senior officers below that? I don't get your point here?



Wrong. Not because that´s how the marine organisation works but because they couldn´t climb higher than that rank at current point in time. You might as well say vice admirals are only vice admirals because that´s how the rank works. No they are vice admirals because they are weaker than their superiors.. as simple as that. You could basically bring up the same argument for a top yonko commander and make up excuses to say "they are yonko level but their crew structure doesn´t work like that so they are just unlucky" please man stop the strawman arguments.



> - Unconfirmed and unfocused on homages for particular characters traits or the odd widely-used design inspirations (e.g. Dracula) =/= incredibly detailed carbon copy designs based off specific actors that are shoved into our faces. Oda's a noted huge fan of classic Japanese cinema and he specifically chose to honour some of his all time favourite legendary actors by basing the Admirals off them. Wait for Ryokugyu to be based off Toshiro Mifune to really bang the point in.



I repeat the character design doesn´t give them magical boosts that pushes the admirals above characters that you don´t like. You might as well go ahead and argue that Fujitora is stronger than PK Luffy because he has a more prominent design. It´s irrelevant. It´s a good argument that Oda respects these characters and to support that they are strong but not a good argument to justify them being above character x by default.



> - Who says AoE is everything they've got? Of course not, but the scale of AoE is an easy and obvious sign of just how elite they're intended to be viewed by us from Oda.
> 
> Give Arlong Aokiji's fruit and he'll probably freeze a swimming pool max. Give Arlong WB's fruit and he'll probably be capable of bringing down a house max. Whereas Admiral/Yonkou characters tilt islands and freeze entire seas casually. Stop being dense about this.



Did I ever argue against the idea that they are elite fighters? No. So what´s the point?



> - Lol name me one Yonkou subordinate that has a best feat that's more impressive than an Admiral's best feat. I dare you.



I already did. Marco´s regeneration is superior to their logia powers, Katakuri has better haki feats and Jozu the second mate has stronger defense than them. You said the admirals have unparalleled feats but they clearly have not.



> Again for the love of god, there's only 5 of them! BM represents *20%* of the Yonkou that we will ever know off which is too significant to just ignore.
> 
> Stop acting like she's a complete outlier! She may be weaker than the others but she's a rough indicator of what Oda has planned for the other Yonkou. Get ready to see some of the silly and unwarranted hype you've built up for the rest of the Yonkou come crashing down as well when the time comes.



And there are only 7 shichibukai which amounts to 14% per character. Is any of that a good reason to treat them as nigh-equals? I doubt it.





> It destroyed some rockets, whilst leaving everyone else in the room still conscious? Wow. That's really going to be effective against Admiral level fighters.



I never said it should knock someone out in that scene, did I? You are being ignorant of the portrayal conqueror´s haki has. If it were uneffective Luffy wouldn´t specialize in that and noone would resort to it in battle as Luffy, Doflamingo, Chinjao and Katakuri did.



> No fighting style??????? He's a fucking *SWORDSMAN *and a top tier one at that! Isn't that good enough?? Dear god, the arrogance of Shanks fans always astounds me. Probably because you're so afraid of the implications of Mihawk's title you resort to making up head cannons about him being a haki god of whatever else you need to try and find a loophole to circumvent that.



So are you saying Shanks is just a carbon copy of Mihawk with no distinguishing factor worthy of a yonko? Do not kid yourself you know fully well that is not true. While it is true that he is a swordsman it is also true that his conqueror´s haki has been treated as his trademark power. It will play a big part in his fighting style. And I find it really funny that you bring up that I should be afraid of Mihawk´s title lol. Fact of the matter is that I´m a bigger fan of Mihawk than of Shanks. I could post my private messages and tons of older posts of me to show you that. So I would love nothing more than Mihawk being stronger than Shanks but I´m not blinded by bias as you are to say it is absolutely impossible for Shanks to be stronger. I like them both.. Mihawk a little bit more.. and I still view Shanks as a tad stronger.





> Well I'm glad you selected an arbitrary group of the "top five" to really concern yourself with and done a worldwide survey to confirm that Shanks is definitely in the top five of that list according to 80% of the fanbase.
> 
> For a start, Kaido and Akainu are definitely above him having miles better portrayal and feats respectively. Mihawk as well given that Shanks predominantly appears to be a swordsman. The rest is then anyone's guess tbh.
> 
> Personally, I'd place Shanks on the same grouping as Kizaru and Aokiji. Not on Akainu/Kaido's level but just above Fujitora and BM.



I´m merely bringing up a point that you seem to be one of the only select few who has this view of Kizaru or Fujitora possibly rivaling or even beating the likes of Shanks and that an outstanding majority of people all over the internet seem to disagree for some odd reason with that thought. So that should be food for thought for you that apparently there seem to be much more convincing cases for everyone but admiral fans that Shanks is stronger. Only an admiral fan could ever believe that an admiral stands a chance to beat or extreme diff fight against someone like Shanks. I´ll close this case now. I can clearly see that you are not willing to listen to anything that makes the admirals a bit weaker than what your tier list portrays them to be and you seem to consider it a big shame for them to peak at slightly stronger than first mate level fighters which is absurd given how strong these first mates really are. So have a good day.

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## Raiden34 (Jan 19, 2018)

I had to say that Admirals are slightly better than Yonko FMs even though I don't like it. Still I feel like Admirals and Yonko FMs are closer to each other than the Admirals are closer to the Yonko.

It's like : Yonko (10) > Admirals (9.5) > Yonko FMs (9.2)

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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 19, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> And there are only 7 shichibukai which amounts to 14% per character. Is any of that a good reason to treat them as nigh-equals? I doubt it.


That's not really a good comparison to use. Shichibukai are pirates who work with the WG, and have been shown to vary hugely in strength (from Buggy to Mihawk), whereas the Yonko have been portrayed to be the strongest pirates in the New World. So the gaps between the Yonko would be much smaller than the gaps for the Shichibukai.

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## DoctorLaw (Jan 19, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> I had to say that Admirals are slightly better than Yonko FMs even though I don't like it. Still I feel like Admirals and Yonko FMs are closer to each other than the Admirals are closer to the Yonko.
> 
> It's like : Yonko (10) > Admirals (9.5) > Yonko FMs (9.2)



This doesn't make any sense. Katakuri can't even hope to stop BM, even with all of his siblings surrounding him. The whole family has been portrayed to very much care about each other and the citizens of the country, yet he chooses to do absolutely nothing. Smoothie, who is almost around his level, just ran off in complete terror.

Marco couldn't even touch Akainu's real body, even with the help of a fellow Yonkou commander.

No first mate/vice admiral in this entire series history has been shown to be close to their captain, aside from say Zoro, and he's been lagging behind Luffy in feats since the NW started.

This chart assumes FMs are 9.2, and admirals are 9.5. How do you reconcile the fact that Akainu landed fatal blows on WB in the space of 30 seconds, while Katakuri has spent hours on end trying to get base Luffy to stay down?

The admiral's battle aftermath nearly killed half of Luffy's crew from the cold, and a FM is approaching that level? No.


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## Raiden34 (Jan 19, 2018)

@Admiral Kizaru  Actually *I* requested to be banned from there, since it's not a proper and mature place to discuss things, let us stay on topic.


-----------------------------------------


The claim about Admirals >> Yonko FMs

One can say that MF battle lasted short so they didn't have enough time to draw that Admirals were superior to Yonko FMs or something like ''they had to match them with the Admirals because no one could so plot demanded so''  no. Just stop.

E.Oda had all the strings. He can do whatever he likes. He could call 2 Admirals, not all 3 if he wanted to. And do not call the Shichibukai, such as Mihawk or Doflamingo so he could make the balance between the sides, not call the PX army, and not call Garp the Fist as a back up especially he wanted Ace to live. But he didn't. He used all the Marine forces against a one single Yonko crew. Marco did not only face with 3 Admirals, he had to face with Garp the freaking fist when he attacked the execution platform. Garp's punch sent him flying over hundred meters, but Marco didn't even bleed or scream in pain. This is Garp, who can re-shape a head that can split an ice continent. And Marco takes this punch with a minimal damage only.

If Kizaru could just overpower Marco, he would. As he did with SNs in Shaobody. But what he did? He cheats. He used Onigumo as a back up and attacked Marco from behind when Marco distracted by Whitebeard's health condition. Aokiji was the same against Jozu. He only gained the upper hand when Jozu turned his head to somewhere else. What was the greatest hype about Big Mom? No one can stop her. But what Marco, Jozu, and Ben Beckman did with the Admirals? Stopped them. If they are not even close to them, that's not possible. Pre-TS Zoro couldn't stop Lucci, or pre-TS Sanji couldn't stop Lucci. They must be pretty close otherwise the portrayal and the feats wouldn't make sense. I mean I can't imagine Katakuri is actually stopping Big Mom, but then Big Mom only wins by attacking Katakuri from behind when he is distracted. Doesn't even make sense.

I mean not even Rayleigh could get away with this kind of mistake. He couldn't help the SH crew, and others so he couldn't turn his head to somewhere else. That's a very big advantage that the Admirals used against Marco and Jozu.

As far as the manga portrayals concerned, the Admirals are above of Yonko FMs, but not to a degree that they are surely superior. They are close enough to match, stop each other whenever it's necessary. Even Akainu, the strongest Marine right now, couldn't do anything to Marco in 3-4 chapters long manga confrontation. And to think that Marco is performing the same thing against Kaido, Shanks, Big Mom, and current Blackbeard. I highly doubt about that.



DoctorLaw said:


> This doesn't make any sense. Katakuri can't even hope to stop BM, even with all of his siblings surrounding him. The whole family has been portrayed to very much care about each other and the citizens of the country, yet he chooses to do absolutely nothing. Smoothie, who is almost around his level, just ran off in complete terror.
> 
> Marco couldn't even touch Akainu's real body, even with the help of a fellow Yonkou commander.
> 
> ...



Marco actually stopped Akainu and made him run for a couple of chapters. Look at the attacking position again. Akainu obviously get nervous by Marco's attack so he had to leave from there. When you look at the next pages you can see that Akainu isn't close to them, while he was only one punch away from Luffy in the same chapter. As for your claim about Marco can't touch Akainu's body, actually he can, which is why Akainu felt the blow and leave that place. When Katakuri dodges from G4 Luffy, he doesn't get hurt like Akainu did, and he isn't running away like Akainu did. He countered G4 Luffy with a Strong Mochi attack.

Akainu landing fatal blows to WB doesn't mean anything really. WB was dying. Squardo stabbed him, probably Marines that lower than vice-admirals stabbed and shot him during the war. Marco or Jozu would also easily do that considering that WB was off-guard, Marco would slice WB's neck, and Jozu would probably bleed him as he did to Aokiji. WB in MF war was unable to pass Aokiji, who stopped by Jozu. Kizaru wasn't able to do anything to Marco in a one-on-one, while he was able to put his leg on Whitebeard's bisento and shot him with his lasers. WB wasn't exactly equal to the Yonko we know in MF war, which is why he died before Marco, and which is why both Marco and Crocodile and then Blackbeard stated that WB has grown weak and couldn't save his man from execution. That WB wasn't the WB that people know, that was a highly nerfed WB who would lose a battle to another Yonko.

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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 19, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> E.Oda had all the strings. He can do whatever he likes. He could call 2 Admirals, not all 3 if he wanted to. And not call the Shichibukai, such as Mihawk or Doflamingo so he could make the balance between the sides, not call the PX army, and not call Garp the Fist as a back up especially he wanted Ace to live. But he didn't. *He used all the Marine forces against a one single Yonko crew.*


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 19, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> @Admiral Kizaru  Actually *I* requested to be banned from there, since it's not a nice place to discuss things, so let us stay on topic.
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> ...


Although I've always said Marco is the next best thing to an Admiral, the Admirals have clearly been portrayed as superior to the commanders. Kizaru didn't need Onigumo to beat Marco. That isn't cheating. It's taking out the second biggest threat to the Marines with the least possible effort. Given the circumstances of the war, Borsalino of course didn't want to get in a prolonged confrontation. The clashes with the Admirals are a testament of Marco's/Jozu's strength, not a point against the Admirals, just like the Admiral clashing equally with Whitebeard is because they are strong enough to do so, not because Whitebeard is weak.

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## DoctorLaw (Jan 19, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Marco actually stopped Akainu and made him run for a couple of chapters. Look at the attacking position again. Akainu obviously get nervous by Marco's attack so he had to leave from there. When you look at the next pages you can see that Akainu isn't close to them, while he was only one punch away from Luffy in the same chapter. *As for your claim about Marco can't touch Akainu's body, actually he can, which is why Akainu felt the hit and leave that place*. When Katakuri dodges from G4 Luffy, he doesn't get hurt like Akainu did, and he isn't running away like Akainu did. He countered G4 Luffy with a Strong Mochi attack.
> 
> Akainu landing fatal blows to WB doesn't mean anything really. WB was dying. Squardo stabbed him, probably Marines that lower than vice-admirals stabbed and shot him during the war. Marco or Jozu would also easily do that considering that WB was off-guard, Marco would slice WB's neck, and Jozu would probably bleed him as he did to Aokiji. WB in MF war was unable to pass Aokiji, who stopped by Jozu. Kizaru wasn't able to do anything to Marco in a one-on-one, while he was able to put his leg on Whitebeard's bisento and shot him with his lasers. WB wasn't exactly equal to the Yonko we know in MF war, which is why he died before Marco, and which is why both Marco and Crocodile and then Blackbeard stated that WB has grown weak and couldn't save his man from execution. That WB wasn't the WB that people know, that was highly nerfed WB who would lose a battle to another Yonko.



So you're saying Marco and Vista did hit Akainu's real body? If that's the case, how do they beat him? They cut through him, and he just remarked about how annoying they were and re-formed himself. If that's their haki cutting through and he just re-forms, what option do they have? It has to be haki they used, otherwise why did it hurt him like you said? Your view of what happened makes Marco/Vista look worse, at least if Akainu dodged used his logia ability we know that he has to at least dodge their attack. Here Akainu just continues on his merry way.

Akainu landed fatal blows on a WB that is actually fighting him, that isn't distracted, and managed to open the fight with a Quake straight to the back of Akainu's head. Any other character in that situation who isn't a Yonkou/Admiral or at that level would've been beaten by the initial hit. A WB quake can cause a tsunami, just look at how quickly Teach used the destructive power of it when he got the fruit. We know from Sabo that when a user first gains an ability its not nearly as good as it can be when more control is taken.

MF WB still has better feats than anyone else in the manga. As far as we've seen panel wise, barring portrayal and hype, he is the strongest character we've seen to this point. He wrecked Akainu after getting nerfed to hell, nearly soloed MF if Aokiji didn't stop his Tsunami, completely shifted the entire structure of the land and ocean around MF when he fought the Giant, and beat the shit out of Teach at the end of the day.

You seem to be implying Marco is at WB's level. How is that? Marco hit Akainu's real body according to you, and it didn't seem to do anything to Akainu. Meanwhile, WB literally sent Akainu into the abyss with, 4 or 5 hits maybe? It seems to me even a sick old WB is leagues stronger than everyone else in terms of damage output. His speed, reflexes, endurance and haki suffered more than anything else. He's still a tier or two above Marco


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## Raiden34 (Jan 19, 2018)

MF WB did some damages on Akainu correct, but in return he couldn't protect his face from him. He received a fatal blow unlike Marco never received from Akainu. The WB people know was way above of that. He wouldn't get stab by Squardo. That's why Marco said that part that WB was much weaker than they know. Which is why WB died and Marco had to lead the crew instead of him during the war.

We know both Garp and Law said that the Yonko were constantly fighting with each other, and they were competing on New World territories, the WB they know was much stronger than that MF performance, and Kaido, Shanks and Big Mom were constantly fighting with that WB.

Just imagine what would that WB do in MF. Admirals wouldn't be able to perform the same. The Yonko are simply by feats, hype and portrayal. Which why Doffy was planning to kill a Marine Admiral, and he was giving no shit to Aokiji's warning and still attacked Smoker. And that Aokiji is equal to Akainu who has stopped by Jozu. On the other hand Doffy was almost shitting his pants when he heard a Yonko's name. Don't tell me Doffy would react different if he was hearing Big Mom's name instead of Kaido.

The portrayal difference between Yonko and Admirals are obvious.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (Jan 19, 2018)

I get arguing that a relatively brief and even confrontation on it's own doesn't automatically suggest equality.  But how do we explain when it happens consistently?  I mean some of the confrontations have been for more than 1-2 chapters.  Would it really take that long for an Admiral to start to have a notable advantage against a character significantly inferior to them?  Big Mam's character has an immediate advantage against Luffy in their relatively brief confrontation and Luffy is a top Yonkou Commander level character.  And of course if we exclude relatively brief confrontations then we basically have to throw out every Admiral confrontation in the series as evidence.  It seems tricky to argue that the Admirals are around Yonkou level with no confrontations to cite as evidence, no?

There's no evidence that Old Rayleigh would match up on par with any of the Yonkou for multiple chapters.

Sabo never says anything about Fujitora joking around.  It's implied that Fujitora matches up against Sabo to avoid publicly teaming up with Luffy.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that Fujitora had the luxury to hold back against Sabo.  There's also no evidence that Sabo was going all out.  I'm not necessarily making any claims.  But to argue one way or the other would be assumptive.

Doflamingo's status doesn't necessarily mean that Fujitora would allow him to incapacitate him.  Using Doflamingo's status as an argument also means arguing that Doflamingo actually thinks that because of that Fujitora would sit there and allow him to do whatever he wants to him.  Which is obviously not the case.  So that doesn't invalidate Zoro's point at all in Doflamingo having no fear of the Admirals.

It's not stated nor implied when Luffy will match up against Akainu.  It can be at any point in the series.  Although I do think that it will be when Luffy is around Yonkou level.  But it's not stated nor implied that Luffy will be around Pirate King level at that point.  The other Admirals will likely be part of the main War but if all of the Admirals are matching up against The Straw Hat Pirates who do all of The Revolutionaries and other Pirate characters match up against?

The idea that The Straw Hat Pirates have humiliated a Yonkou is an opinion and one that I would argue has been blown waaaay out of proportion.  I do think that The Straw Hat Pirates are significantly underrated but all that they've done so far is avoid being incapacitated and/or captured throughout a chase in which they've mostly been at a distance.  They've repeatedly admitted that they have no way of doing much of anything against a Yonkou.  Even Jinbe has stated that even while being around a lot of water there's nothing he can do against Prometheus.  For a character of Jinbe's caliber to say that about just one of a Yonkou's weapons is amazing.  In any case they have yet to actually wound Big Mam's character at all.  And all that with Big Mam's character being nerfed.  And the Admirals wouldn't exactly have any room to talk about allowing characters significantly inferior to them escape.  Every complaint that I've seen about Big Mam's character from an Admiral => Yonkou fan so far, can be applied to previous Admiral confrontations:

-Jinbe looking like he successfully defended against a slash from a nerfed version of Big Mam's character- which he didn't even do since it sent him flying- but Jinbe did that against a fully healed Akainu.

-Big Mam's character allowing The Straw Hat Pirates to avoid being incapacitated and/or captured.  Even outside of The Straw Hat Pirates, Kizaru allowed many Supernovas to escape.

-Chopper's character defending against a grab from a nerfed version of her character.  Pre Time Skip Luffy did the same thing to an actual punch from a fully healed Sengoku.

I can somewhat understand finding the cake plot point somewhat silly but that has nothing to do with power levels.

The Admirals being based off of legends is awesome but what does that really have to do with power levels?  Is there a rule that says that the more inspiration that Oda has in creating a character the more skilled that they are?

Having more AoE doesn't necessarily mean that a character ranks superior to the other.  Kizaru has the least amount of AoE out of the Admirals from what we've seen so far but he's not necessarily the weakest Admiral.  Doflamingo has superior AoE to Marco but Marco is > Doflamingo.

What are the Admirals' best feats?  Since we're not including any relatively brief confrontations as part of our arguments I'm curious to see what feats are being referred to.

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## Quipchaque (Jan 20, 2018)

Gohara said:


> *I get arguing that a relatively brief and even confrontation on it's own doesn't automatically suggest equality.  But how do we explain when it happens consistently?  I mean some of the confrontations have been for more than 1-2 chapters.  Would it really take that long for an Admiral to start to have a notable advantage against a character significantly inferior to them?*  Big Mam's character has an immediate advantage against Luffy in their relatively brief confrontation and Luffy is a top Yonkou Commander level character.  *And of course if we exclude relatively brief confrontations then we basically have to throw out every Admiral confrontation in the series as evidence.  It seems tricky to argue that the Admirals are around Yonkou level with no confrontations to cite as evidence, no?*
> 
> *There's no evidence that Old Rayleigh would match up on par with any of the Yonkou for multiple chapters.*
> 
> ...



This is such a great post and really underlines what I think and said well, the bold parts specifically. Can´t thank you enough for this master peace, you really put a lot of thought in this. Also:



> What are the Admirals' best feats?  Since we're not including any relatively brief confrontations as part of our arguments I'm curious to see what feats are being referred to.



Didn´t you know? Their best feats are evaporizing lifeless ice chunks and freezing a defenseless sea. Yonko commanders are totally not allowed to dodge that. lol

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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 20, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That is your opinion. In terms of hype, portrayal and general standing in the op world they are exactly the same. Their hype as admiral rank is no bigger than being a top 3 commander. I do not know where you got the idea from that it´s a more prestigious title than being one of the very best soldiers of a freaking yonko. Then again your username is admiral Kizaru so what else should I have expected. The yonko and marines are portrayed as opposing forces it is only natural that the standings of their underlings would be the same. Trust me it is no coincidence that you have 1 leader and 3 top level fighters in each group. Fact of the matter is that they are portrayed as approximately even forces that cancel each other out. That´s how the balance of the 3 great powers works. If what you said were true then that would mean that Marines have 4 yonko level fighters against 1 yonko and 3 high high tiers. That is clearly contradicting what the manga has shown and stated. The only thing I agree with is that the admirals have more relevance which is 1 of the 2 reasons I would give them a very slight edge over first mates on average.



No! The Marines and Shichi are meant to balance out the Yonkou combined . I don't know why you've deluded yourself into believing that the marines/WG are somehow meant to be equal/parallel/symmetric/mirror to one Yonkou crew when literally nothing in the manga suggests that. In addition to Garp's initial statements, we have the databooks themselves say "The 4 emperors = Marine + shichibukai".

The FACT of the matter is the marines/WG run and control around 90% of the entire world whereas the yonkou COMBINED only control a small sliver of it. Individually they are significantly far more powerful than any yonkou crew and they only way the latter pose any sort of real existential threat to the marines/WG if they group up and decide to attack them. To take a real like analogy, it's like comparing in terms of military resources, the US to the rest of the permanent members of the UN security council - the US can utterly destroy each one of them individually. 

I seriously suggest you read MF again. Aokiji, Kizaru, Garp, Sengoku and Mihawk barely did jack shit relative to what they're capable off  - only Akainu got his hands dirty at all and yet it was a complete fucking STOMP for the marines/WG. Heck Garp & Sengoku only really got involved because another Yonkou-in-waiting crew suddenly showed up. Yet they utterly destroyed the WB pirates and it required yet an additional Yonkou crew suddenly showing up and Sengoku's mercy preventing a full on holocaust for them. 

Such as that is of course they have more than one Yonkou level fighter in their midst. 

FA + 3 Admirals = 4 Yonkou

It's no coincidence that Oda made these numbers equal. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> I already told you what I would expect to happen. That the admirals wouldn´t need distractions to establish a visible superiority and that Kizaru wouldn´t need outside help to do anything against Marco. Even if you disagree that they might be equals - which to be fair can be argued - at the very least you can´t deny that from current feats and portrayal a first mate could potentially give higher end of high-diff or possibly even extreme diff. Anything lower than that is just disrespectful.



You'd have somewhat of a point if the skirmishes lasted more than a couple of minutes but they didn't. In the two or so minutes NO-ONE is going to establish visible superiority to fighters of the level of Marco/Jozu/Vista - these guys aren't complete pushovers you know.

I think at best they give them medium difficulty. Long and tough battles, but with no realistic chance of defeat for the Admiral. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Getting stalled by Rayleigh- no. Getting stalled by _old_ Rayleigh- yes. Prime Marco got _obliterated_ by yonko level fighter as you always like to point out. _Old_ Rayleigh who didn´t fight for over 20 years and is very likely weaker than Marco could easily handle Kizaru and there was no indication whatsoever that he would share the same fate. In fact Garp even suggested they would need reinforcements to deal properly with him. That´s clearly a different portrayal compared to what a yonko got.



ehhh??? Marco got made to look like a chump by Akainu but he never got obliterated by him. It'd take at least medium difficulty for any Admiral/Yonkou level to put down Marco. 

Old Rayleigh was also the first mate of the fucking PK and portrayed as a brother to Roger as opposed to a child like Marco was. If that isn't an exceptional first mate, then I don't know what is. 

Again this relates to above but you seem to live in this binary world where characters who are close to one another, either establish superiority in a matter of minutes otherwise they're equal. Please realise that world and OP fights are far more complex and nuanced than that!

Of course they would. Do you think Rayleigh would come down willingly to Impel Down? He'd need transport, security to contain him until then (probably an Admiral) until then which the marines couldn't afford to use considering they were about to fight WB's crew. 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yeah Fujitora was joking around.. and Sabo had trouble controlling his power and used less named attacks than Fujitora. Decent portrayal for both sides and again no indication of an admiral looking vastly superior to a first mate.



Fujitora was joking around the whole time, something even the genius Sabo eventually figured out. 

Yet until that moment, Sabo thought Fujitora was seriously going to apprehend Luffy, his brother, so was trying his hardest against him to zero effect apart from getting roughed up by Fujitora. 

Fujitora basically treated him like a speck of dirt he wiped from the bottom of his shoe. That speaks volumes to where they compare in the OPworld. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> That "re-read DR" I´ll give right back to you. Fujitora was in a room alone with Doflamingo and just told him he will take care of Doflamingo later and Doflamingo responded fearlessly without hesitation that he should just try get rid of Fuji right at the spot then. There was no manipulation or outside help involved in that scene yet he was clearly less frightened of Fujitora than of a Kaido. Another clear portrayal difference between yonko and admirals.



Is this the argument you're going to use as a Shanks fan? Seriously, this is the hole you're going to jump into?

Do you remember when Shanks let some East Blue fodder throw drinks over him and spit in his face without doing anything to them? Instead of retaliating, laughing it off?

Some people don't have short-tempers and instead have more calm and reserved personality. Fujitora is one of those people. So is Aokiji and the likes of Shanks - something Doflamingo was more than acutely aware of - no way in hell he tries the same thing to the likes of Kaido, Akainu or heck even BM or Kizaru. 

This may be hard, but try and think big picture and incorporate character personality, disposition, motivations into things instead of taking a primitive simpleton approach and thinking everything has to do with muh powerlevelz!!!!




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Irrelevant and completely missing the point. I am well aware that Fujitora supported Luffy/Zoro. He still attacked them and both parties were capable to withstand the assault with heavily restricted power. Somehow that reminds me of Luffy vs Katakuri, Luffy vs Doflamingo.. coincidence? I think not.



An "*assault*" that he wasn't seriously trying in to hurt them because of his personal feelings and objectives. 

How in god's name is it comparable to Luffy vs Katakuri or Doflamingo, where in both cases the latter have solid motivation to destroy Luffy at all costs as opposed to Fujitora's situation with Luffy. 

Please tell me.

Yet another false equivalence from you. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> And here it is again.. an admiral fan bringing up Akainu to support the strength of the inferior admirals. What a convincing argument... not. And no it is not at all likely that zoro will fight an admiral. The admiral he would have to fight is Fujitora and you know full well that Fujitora will more than likely jump ship way before EOS and you completely ignore Sanji in that matter. If even pirate king 2.mate Sanji could compete and defeat an admiral then there is no doubt that means that _at the very least_ the strongest yonko first mates are incredibly close to admirals. If you do not understand that then I don´t know what else to say.



I believe Akainu is the strongest admiral around and will probably defeat any other Admiral or Yonkou not named Kaido with at least high difficulty. 

To your specific point, you could have a point if it wasn't for the fact that Aokiji was portrayed as a near equal to Akainu, with it requiring an extreme difficulty ten day battle to defeat him. 

The same admiral that same Yonkou Propagandist idiots on the OL used to say was the third strongest Admiral around because he was "_derp paired up with Jozu during MF". _If Akainu is Yonkou level then clearly Aokiji also is by virtue of this. As I said you guys will never learn about this shit - clearly Oda has portrayed all the Admirals/Yonkou very close to one another. 

You'll still be arguing Yonkou >> Admiral if Oda has Fujitora or Ryokugyu show up and defeat BM. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Wrong. Not because that´s how the marine organisation works but because they couldn´t climb higher than that rank at current point in time. You might as well say vice admirals are only vice admirals because that´s how the rank works. No they are vice admirals because they are weaker than their superiors.. as simple as that. You could basically bring up the same argument for a top yonko commander and make up excuses to say "they are yonko level but their crew structure doesn´t work like that so they are just unlucky" please man stop the strawman arguments.



This is based on your spurious and frankly shitty & moronic premise that one Yonkou crew is meant to exactly mirror the Marines/WG. 

They aren't as I explained earlier. They are vastly more superior and powerful. Deal with it. 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> I repeat the character design doesn´t give them magical boosts that pushes the admirals above characters that you don´t like. You might as well go ahead and argue that Fujitora is stronger than PK Luffy because he has a more prominent design. It´s irrelevant. It´s a good argument that Oda respects these characters and to support that they are strong but not a good argument to justify them being above character x by default.



Of course not and I never claimed it alone implied that they were stronger than everyone else. But it in _*combination *_with everything else is a clear signal of the special respect they get from Oda in comparison to most other characters, a clear indication of their importance and relevance in the story as major players in the OPworld. 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Did I ever argue against the idea that they are elite fighters? No. So what´s the point?



It puts them in a special bracket above any single Yonkou commander who Oda has never decided to showcase like that. 

Do you think it's a coincidence he only uses these sort or majestic AoE techniques to demonstrate the power of _*only *_Admirals and Yonkous?



DiscoZoro20 said:


> I already did. Marco´s regeneration is superior to their logia powers, Katakuri has better haki feats and Jozu the second mate has stronger defense than them. You said the admirals have unparalleled feats but they clearly have not.



Marco has the best defence in the entire world above any Yonkou or Admiral by virtue of his DF - it's literally what his DF grants him so that's a moot point. 

And no Katakuri doesn't. Fujitora was already able to demonstrate future sight way before Katakuri was

At any rate, my point was the best combat feat of any speciality/skill, from an Admiral is vastly superior to what we've seen from a YC. 

Not every Admiral has demonstrated a feat in every single combat ability (power, defence, AoE, swordsmanship, speed etc etc) so you can easily pick a particular category where an Admiral doesn't a feat showcasing it. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> And there are only 7 shichibukai which amounts to 14% per character. Is any of that a good reason to treat them as nigh-equals? I doubt it.



Not sure how good you are at maths but 11 (total number of shichibukai) >> 5. 

Also another FALSE EQUIVALENCE from you!! 

Yonkou is indisputably a strength based position where you have to establish yourself as powerful enough to be above nearly every other pirate in the world to command the territory and the respect to be acknowledged as one whereas as the point of a Shichi is to be threatening enough to DETER other pirates. 

Hence why Buggy is one, because whilst he's weak as fuck, he's incredibly intimidating and threatening to other pirates because of his history.  




DiscoZoro20 said:


> I never said it should knock someone out in that scene, did I? You are being ignorant of the portrayal conqueror´s haki has. If it were uneffective Luffy wouldn´t specialize in that and noone would resort to it in battle as Luffy, Doflamingo, Chinjao and Katakuri did.



Do you think the likes of Chinjao, Doflamingo & Hancock are above any Admiral? As much as you're chronically downplaying the Admirals here I'd like to think that you're sensible enough not to believe it's the case. 

In addition to fodder control, all it is at the moment is a symbol of the "adventurer" and "free spirit" nature in a pirate which is linked to the threat you pose in the world as they're the sort of people more likely to cause problems for the world. 

I repeat it hasn't been used to any effect against a fellow TOP TIER despite plenty of opportunities to do so, e.g. Rayleigh vs Kizaru, Doflamingo vs Aokiji, Whitebeard or Shanks during MF etc etc. Once again, why do you think that's the case?




DiscoZoro20 said:


> So are you saying Shanks is just a carbon copy of Mihawk with no distinguishing factor worthy of a yonko? Do not kid yourself you know fully well that is not true. While it is true that he is a swordsman it is also true that his conqueror´s haki has been treated as his trademark power. It will play a big part in his fighting style. And I find it really funny that you bring up that I should be afraid of Mihawk´s title lol. Fact of the matter is that I´m a bigger fan of Mihawk than of Shanks. I could post my private messages and tons of older posts of me to show you that. So I would love nothing more than Mihawk being stronger than Shanks but I´m not blinded by bias as you are to say it is absolutely impossible for Shanks to be stronger. I like them both.. Mihawk a little bit more.. and I still view Shanks as a tad stronger.



And I like Shanks a character. That's just as relevant to this discussion as you pointing out that you're a Mihawk fan as well. 

Is there any reason to think not other than your own biases and best case/optimistic wishes as a Shanks fan??

Mihawk can be a 100 in swordsmanship and Shanks a 99 and that's still enough to for him to be incredibly strong, a top tier fighter and one of the strongest in the world as Yonkou. 

Shanks has demonstrated zero other fighting styles than swordsmanship. He used a sword against WB and against Akainu. Unless Oda suddenly reveals himself to be a DF user, he's predominantly a bloody swordsman and hence weaker than Mihawk. Deal with it.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> I´m merely bringing up a point that you seem to be one of the only select few who has this view of Kizaru or Fujitora possibly rivaling or even beating the likes of Shanks and that an outstanding majority of people all over the internet seem to disagree for some odd reason with that thought. So that should be food for thought for you that apparently there seem to be much more convincing cases for everyone but admiral fans that Shanks is stronger. Only an admiral fan could ever believe that an admiral stands a chance to beat or extreme diff fight against someone like Shanks. I´ll close this case now. I can clearly see that you are not willing to listen to anything that makes the admirals a bit weaker than what your tier list portrays them to be and you seem to consider it a big shame for them to peak at slightly stronger than first mate level fighters which is absurd given how strong these first mates really are. So have a good day.



Shanks is a _*far more *_popular character in the OP fanbase (see popularity polls) for obvious reasons (he's a good guy compared to someone like Akainu who killed a fan favourite in Ace) so it doesn't surprise me. But popularity doesn't equal strength. 

On a forum like OJ, which is the most active English speaking forum OP forum, who analyse OP in much more detail and depth than your casual fan, the belief that Admirals are at least equal to the Yonkous is a majority opinion so no, I dispute you arbitrary, pie-in-the sky figure that you pulled out of your ass earlier about Shanks being categorically in the top five and above every Admiral. 

Coral Reef 

And I can say the exact same thing to you regarding the Yonkou and the Admirals. You think it's an insult to think that Oda has decided to make Admirals and Yonkous comparable when it really shouldn't be as clearly Oda has continually stressed these two groups as the elites in the world. 



Erkan12 said:


> @Admiral Kizaru  Actually *I* requested to be banned from there, since it's not a proper and mature place to discuss things, let us stay on topic.



Why should I normalise you when you're a cancer?

As @Onewhosbeenaround said before his post got deleted, to get banned from the OP section on MF takes some doing considering their lax standards and laissez-faire attitude to moderation.  

I might vehemently disagree with @DiscoZoro20 here about this topic but I can at least have somewhat of a mature discussion with him whereas based on your history you're capable of nothing but trolling and spamming emotes whilst using the word "autistic" hundred times per minute. 

I mean, you left his place because the likes of Marc wouldn't tolerate your shit but now you return because you've got nowhere else to post and you expect to return like no one knows your past history?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 20, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> This is such a great post and really underlines what I think and said well, the bold parts specifically. Can´t thank you enough for this master peace, you really put a lot of thought in this. Also:



lol having to resort to # @Gohara logic. That's pretty desperate mate. 

By his logic, BM is only Nami/Chopper/Jinbe level because that's what's Oda has consistently decided to pair up and show us.




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Didn´t you know? Their best feats are evaporizing lifeless ice chunks and freezing a defenseless sea. Yonko commanders are totally not allowed to dodge that. lol



Has anyone said that a simple AoE attack from the Admirals would be enough to defeat the YC on their own?


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## Gohara (Jan 20, 2018)

But that's not what the logic is.  It's not simply two sets of characters consistently standing on opposite sides of each other.  It's that neither side has any notable advantages.  Almost every panel in the confrontation against a nerfed version of Big Mam's character has been The Straw Hat Pirates running away and repeatedly admitting that Big Mam's character is far superior to them.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Has anyone said that a simple AoE attack from the Admirals would be enough to defeat the YC on their own?



Actually yes, that's what most answers are from Admiral => Yonkou fans in top Yonkou Commander level character vs. Admiral threads.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Gohara said:


> But that's not what the logic is.  It's not simply two sets of characters consistently standing on opposite sides of each other.  It's that neither side has any notable advantages.  Almost every panel in the confrontation against a nerfed version of Big Mam's character has been The Straw Hat Pirates running away and repeatedly admitting that Big Mam's character is far superior to them.



And the gap between BM and Chopper/Jinbe/Nami should be much greater than the gap between an Admiral and a YC, right?

So it's not a one to one comparison right?

And yet BM is still constantly being placed up against them and *unable *to stop them. Pretty embarrassing no? 


The point though is that attempting to make an argument because characters are constantly paired up against someone else is frankly asinine (tbh something I expect from you) because often story related reasons are what dictates events. BM is constantly paired up against Chopper/Nami/Jinbe because the story dictates that needs to happen just as YC commanders were paired up against Admirals during MF, because the story during MF dicated it (no one else was available and they needed to clash with someone) . 



Gohara said:


> Actually yes, that's what most answers are from Admiral => Yonkou fans in top Yonkou Commander level character vs. Admiral threads.



lol it's one example of their superiority. Oda only reserves these sort of majestic AoE attacks to Admiral/Yonkou fighters. 

I mean do you realise Sera that Oda rarely outright states that X character is greater than Y character?

Moreover, he puts in these huge AoE feats because it's is an easy symbolism of their status in the world. If it was nothing special why wouldn't he use them for YC characters?

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## MO (Jan 20, 2018)

@Admiral Kizaru _why did you block your profile? _


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 20, 2018)

MO said:


> @Admiral Kizaru _why did you block your profile? _



I'm a private and introverted type of person.


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## MO (Jan 20, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> I'm a private and introverted type of person.


I'm friendly


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## Gohara (Jan 20, 2018)

But again, it's not just that the top Yonkou Commander level characters are being paired up with the Admirals.  It's that they're having actual clashes and neither side is having any advantages.  That variable is not there with the example that you're referencing.  One side is doing nothing but running away and admitting that their opponent is far superior to them.

And I'm not sure what you mean when you say that they keep on being paired up.  Besides the chase when else has Big Mam's character been paired up with any of those characters outside of Brook?

You're comparing an example where one side easily has an advantage and it being their only actual confrontation so far to like 10-15 examples where neither side has any fair advantages.

As for it being embarrassing that Big Mam's character hasn't captured the protagonists, not really.  Many characters significantly inferior to Magellan escaped his character.  Many Pre Time Skip Supernova level characters have escaped Kizaru.  Heck, a significant point in your Admiral => Yonkou argument is that Sengoku intentionally allowed The Red Hair Pirates to escape.  That would be by far the top example of a significant catch escaping.

And your point becomes irrelevant if there is any interference which there's likely going to be with The Firetank Pirates' Ship.

It's not just The Marineford War Arc in which top Yonkou Commander level characters and Admirals have confronted.

But having superior AoE doesn't necessarily suggest overall superiority.  Otherwise you would have to agree that Kizaru is easily shown to be the weakest Admiral so far.  Plus that's not the point.  You asked when anyone has said that Admirals automatically win because of superior AoE.  But Admiral => Yonkou fans say that Admirals win thread match ups against top Yonkou Commander level characters that way a lot.

But Shanks so far hasn't even shown to have a Devil Fruit.  The whole AoE argument is entirely speculative.

You're always welcome to verify with the mods if Seraphoenix and I are the same person.  But I know that you won't because you already know that it's not true.  

Some other points to respond to your response to Zoro:

But why would Sengoku freely allow piracy to continue knowing that The Marines and The Shichibukai could have easily bested The Red Hair Pirates?  Sengoku being nice simply doesn't add up.  Sengoku wasn't even nice enough to spare a family member of his best friend because of the victory that it would add up to against piracy.  But he's so nice that he's going to allow a Yonkou Crew to escape?

The World Government can't be anywhere near equal to 4 Yonkou Crews without arguing that Sengoku freely allows piracy to continue when allowing The Red Hair Pirates to escape.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> You'd have somewhat of a point if the skirmishes lasted more than a couple of minutes but they didn't. In the two or so minutes NO-ONE is going to establish visible superiority to fighters of the level of Marco/Jozu/Vista - these guys aren't complete pushovers you know.



Luffy is top Yonkou Commander level.  Using the circumstances that you're stating Lord Cracker and Lord Katakuri both have advantages against Luffy.  Big Mam's character has an advantage against Luffy in their first clash.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Fujitora was joking around the whole time, something even the genius Sabo eventually figured out.



That was already addressed.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Do you think it's a coincidence he only uses these sort or majestic AoE techniques to demonstrate the power of _*only *_Admirals and Yonkous?



Kizaru's AoE techniques are significantly inferior to that of those other characters' AoE techniques from what we've seen so far.  So there doesn't necessarily have to be a coincidence.  But if we're asking about coincidences, what about Oda never giving an Admiral a fair one on one advantage against top Yonkou Commander level characters in their many confrontations so far?



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Marco has the best defence in the entire world above any Yonkou or Admiral by virtue of his DF



Not necessarily.  Kaidou's and Big Mam's characters can reasonably be argued as having superior defense.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> And no Katakuri doesn't. Fujitora was already able to demonstrate future sight way before Katakuri was



It's not about who shows exceptional Observation Haki first.  Lord Katakuri has shown more foresight so far with Observation Haki than Fujitora has so far.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> At any rate, my point was the best combat feat of any speciality/skill, from an Admiral is vastly superior to what we've seen from a YC.



Several Yonkou Commanders have shown more impressive physical strength than most of the Admirals with Jozu arguably being the physically strongest out of any of those characters.  Several Yonkou Commanders have shown more impressive defense than most of the Admirals so far with the exception of stamina.  As Zoro has stated the most impressive Haki feat between those characters is from Lord Katakuri.  The Admirals have their advantages too but in no way, shape, or form have they shown to outclass top Yonkou Commanders in most if not all aspects.


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## Muah (Jan 20, 2018)

Big mom mid diff. Fuji is probabaly no stronger than Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 21, 2018)

Muah said:


> Big mom mid diff. Fuji is probabaly no stronger than Katakuri.



Fujitora's on a different scale. He can spam meteors, lift thousands and thousands of tons, and he can drop enough gravity that it can completely flatten you out. I don't think the mochi man wants to get flattened. Fujitora has never come close to showing his full strength. Pretty much every clash he had was without haki, except Sabo, the logia. He even helped his main target become a hero and escape lol.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Gohara (Jan 21, 2018)

I don't see why Lord Katakuri would allow Fujitora to do all that though.  Doing all that would take Fujitora a while and with Lord Katakuri's amazing Observation Haki his character would have a head start in not allowing Fujitora to do all that.  Also a disadvantaged Gear 3rd Luffy has destroyed an Island sized ship which should easily be hundreds of thousands to millions of tons.  Lord Katakuri destroying thousands of tons wouldn't be strange.


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## Raiden34 (Jan 22, 2018)

I don't see why Fuji must be stronger than Katakuri as well. Fujitora didn't make the half of the damage to Luffy when he throw that Raging Tiger attack to Luffy in comparison with what Katakuri did to him. As far as CoO feats to, Katakuri is superior. Katakuri has actually durability and defensive feats. CoA, Katakuri overpowered Luffy's CoA, Fujitora never demonstrated superior CoA.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Sherlōck (Jan 22, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Fujitora never demonstrated superior CoA.



I don't think Fujitora even has CoA. I don't recall him ever using it.


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## Raiden34 (Jan 22, 2018)

Once I think.


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## Sherlōck (Jan 22, 2018)

Once? Not even during the fight against RA Chief of Staff & martial arts master like Sabo?

That's odd.


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## Nekochako (Jan 22, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> I don't think Fujitora even has CoA. I don't recall him ever using it.



He kinda should have it being a top tier but maybe he chose to not develop it because he did not think it was needed for his ability.


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 22, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I don't see why Lord Katakuri would allow Fujitora to do all that though.  Doing all that would take Fujitora a while and with Lord Katakuri's amazing Observation Haki his character would have a head start in not allowing Fujitora to do all that.  Also a disadvantaged Gear 3rd Luffy has destroyed an Island sized ship which should easily be hundreds of thousands to millions of tons.  Lord Katakuri destroying thousands of tons wouldn't be strange.



Fujitora needs no prep to drop the meteorite, and can do so while enjoying a meal. When he wants to drop a meteor, he will. Katakuri isn't fast enough to close the distance before Fujitora pulls his sword down. 

I don't think Katakuri stands any chance whatsoever trying to stop the meteorite. Fujitora drops the meteorite in chapter 713, which every character calls *a meteorite.* Not multiple. Meaning Law and Doflamingo didn't just slice up their own individual meteorites, they were defending against what was falling toward them. Fujitora himself repelled the rest of the meteor. If he didn't it would've done much more damage to the area. 

He went on to not kill Doflamingo, Luffy, or Law when he had the chance, even though he would've been justified in every case, especially with Doflamingo trying to attack him. His subordinates were also in the area. *He even said, he was "just testing" his strength "a little." *That all means Fujitora was *holding back*. 

Let's look at how the meteorite was stopped. Doflamingo used his strings, which can cut virtually anything that isn't clad in haki, and Law used his DF, which can cut anything that isn't covered in haki. Fujitora used his DF to repel it. They all had the right DFs.

*Katakuri doesn't*. He's a mochi man. If he tries to use his DF to stop the burning meteorite coming down, the mochi won't hold up. A little water is enough to make its lose its form, so a super heated meteorite will burn it. Even if he uses his awakening to build up a wall, the meteor will smash right through it if Luffy can eat through it. If he tries to make a giant G3 fist and punch his way through the meteor, and he can actually do it, it would just break up into smaller pieces and still crash into him. If he uses a gatling, what's to stop Fujitora for dropping another meteorite, and another? Katakuri literally has no way to stop it, most characters don't, that's why everytime Fujitora used it after his fight with Law and Doflamingo it was foiled or sent into the ocean. 

Katakuri is a beast, but he fundamentally lacks the moveset to stop a burning meteorite.


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 22, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> I don't think Fujitora even has CoA. I don't recall him ever using it.



It's literally a manga fact that any character at least VA level can use the basic forms of Haki.

We haven't seen Kizaru or Aokiji use CoA. We don't assume they don't have it. It's just that admirals rarely have to use it.

And I think Fujitora is actually shown using Haki a few times.


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 22, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> I don't see why Fuji must be stronger than Katakuri as well. Fujitora didn't make the half of the damage to Luffy when he throw that Raging Tiger attack to Luffy in comparison with what Katakuri did to him. As far as CoO feats to, Katakuri is superior. Katakuri has actually durability and defensive feats. CoA, Katakuri overpowered Luffy's CoA, Fujitora never demonstrated superior CoA.



Fujitora placed his faith in Luffy to the point that he didn't intervene with Doflamingo, he gave Luffy a couple of days to recover, and he even helped Luffy escape by destroying attacking pirates. When base luffy attacked him in the town center with Zoro, he just sat there and didn't counterattack.

Does Oda have to spoon feed this any more? Fujitora has no interest in stopping Luffy.

And let's indulge this fantasy that Fujitora's CoA is weaker than Katakuri's. Fujitora himself specializes in CoO, effectively using it to see 24/7. If he has weak CoA because he doesn't focus on it, he must compensate with massive CoO right? Why would he have vastly inferior CoA, vastly inferior CoO, and vastly inferior DF attacks ("raging tiger weaker didn't do as much damage as Katakuri") than Katakuri? Why would the marines let an admiral in that by your measure is weaker than a decent VA?

Fujitora has never been serious, and he's shown that he can quite easily destroy an island if he felt like it. Dead serious Katakuri can't beat tired base Luffy. How are Katakuri and Fujitora even comparable?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 22, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Fujitora placed his faith in Luffy to the point that he didn't intervene with Doflamingo, he gave Luffy a couple of days to recover, and he even helped Luffy escape by destroying attacking pirates. When base luffy attacked him, he just sat there and didn't counterattack.
> 
> Does Oda have to spoon feed this any more? Fujitora has no interest in stopping Luffy. An admiral
> 
> ...



As I said above to DiscoZoro, some people seem to struggle to comprehend the rather straightforward character & story related motivations for particular actions and think everything boils down to "*muh powerlevelz!!". *


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## Raiden34 (Jan 22, 2018)

Which is why I am taking only the ''Fierce Tiger'' attack not the other parts. I am not talking about the entire fight, which is obvious that Fujitora was holding back since Luffy would need G4 to match with him otherwise. The only time Fujitora got serious was the moment that he used Fierce Tiger on Luffy. In comparison with what Katakuri did to Luffy's G3, and then by using Strength Mochi on G4. He was more impressive than Fujitora's Fierce Tiger.


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## Sherlōck (Jan 22, 2018)

@Erkan12 what kind of attack do you think FT is?


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## Gohara (Jan 22, 2018)

@ Law.

Law and Doflamingo were able to react to the Meteors without much of a problem.  Lord Katakuri is arguably as fast as or faster than them and has superior Observation Haki.  If they can react to the Meteors I don't see why Lord Katakuri wouldn't be able to.  Lord Katakuri would know what Fujitora is going to do before Fujitora himself knows and before he can even begin to Summon the Meteors Lord Katakuri can force him into close quarters combat.  Or even more effectively can spam Mochi based techniques at long range.  Seeping Mochi into Fujitora's body is also an option.

As for destroying Meteors, Lord Katakuri's solid Mochi is superior firepower to Gear 3rd Luffy whose firepower is capable of destroying an Island sized ship even while disadvantaged.  I don't know if Lord Katakuri can or can't destroy the Meteors but it's not at all unlikely.  He can also set up Mochi nets of sorts to either force them to detonate far away and/or offset them.  All of that assuming he doesn't prevent Fujitora from summoning the Meteors to begin with, which again he can reasonably do.

True about what Fujitora says but Law and Doflamingo still reacted to and destroyed them without much of a problem.  And when Fujitora summoned more later on Bird Cage destroyed them without much of a problem.


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## zoro_santoryu (Jan 29, 2018)

Big Mom high difficulty. her durability and power are greater

Reactions: Like 1


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## Typhon (Jan 29, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> I don't see why Fuji must be stronger than Katakuri as well. Fujitora didn't make the half of the damage to Luffy when he throw that Raging Tiger attack to Luffy in comparison with what Katakuri did to him. As far as CoO feats to, Katakuri is superior*.* Katakuri has actually durability and defensive feats. CoA, Katakuri overpowered Luffy's CoA, Fujitora never demonstrated superior CoA.



>Luffy has blunt force immunity. It stands to reason that move wasn't backed by haki and Luffy still lost the exchange after being hit with Ferocious Tiger
>CoO feats are interchangeable. Fugitora's range let him perceive the cloud formations. He knew exactly what was going on the islands the entire time and where battles would lead to... while eating ramen.
>Going off feats, Kata has better CoA, but Fugi has ridiculously superior fire power, like fire power Katakuri isn't dodging. Even if it was confirmed Kata had better CoA, we all saw how Luffy vs Boa Sisters went

OT: As of now Big Meme gets J'd

Reactions: Like 3


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## Gohara (Jan 30, 2018)

Not really immunity although it's true that Luffy is resistant to those types of techniques.  But I'm not really sure that I agree that Fujitora won that clash.  Both characters sent each other flying.  So wouldn't that make it a somewhat even clash?

I don't remember Fujitora using Observation Haki to sense everything going on throughout the entire Island throughout the Arc but I do agree that his character's Observation Haki is amazing.  Although still not as impressive as seeing the future.

Fujitora might have superior destructive capabilities but that doesn't really matter much if Lord Katakuri can counter them.  Maneuvering around the gravity is something that Sabo's character has shown to be capable of.  So whether that would immobilize Lord Katakuri is questionable.  And because of Observation Haki Lord Katakuri can preemptively counter whatever Fujitora does.  There are a variety of ways for him to nullify, offset, and/or dodge the Meteors.  Create a high volume of Mochi and have it meet the Meteors far above the battlefield to detonate and/or offset them.  Attempt to seep Mochi into Fujitora so Fujitora has to focus on countering that.  Spamming Gear 3.5 Mochi at the Meteors.  Use Observation Haki to dodge the area of the Meteors.  Whereas the Meteors land around the area that Fujitora is at.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## MO (Jan 30, 2018)

convict said:


> "But she's a Yonko!"
> 
> No. just no. That is literally all people have to stand on at this point. At some point you can't just keep ignoring feats. Admirals have been far more impressive than this wench.
> 
> Giving purple tiger the nod.


how is he more impressive honestly? There is only one feat iirc that is actually impressive from fuji.


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## Dunno (Jan 30, 2018)

Typhon said:


> >Luffy has blunt force immunity. It stands to reason that move wasn't backed by haki and Luffy still lost the exchange after being hit with Ferocious Tiger
> >CoO feats are interchangeable. Fugitora's range let him perceive the cloud formations. He knew exactly what was going on the islands the entire time and where battles would lead to... while eating ramen.
> >*Going off feats, Kata has better CoA*, but Fugi has ridiculously superior fire power, like fire power Katakuri isn't dodging. Even if it was confirmed Kata had better CoA, we all saw how Luffy vs Boa Sisters went
> 
> OT: As of now Big Meme gets J'd


I generally agree with you. I just wanted to argue that Katakuri doesn't have better CoA going off of feats. He may have shown a higher level of CoA than Fujitora has, but until Fujitora fights seriously, and shows us the extent of his power, we can't compare his CoA to Katakuri's. Basically, we need to see Fujitora's Haki get overpowered by someone with Katakuri's level of Haki before we can draw that conclusion.


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## Kai (Jan 30, 2018)

Katakuri is closer to Fuji than Fuji is to Big Mom imo.

Big Mom high diffs.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## A Optimistic (Jan 30, 2018)

Gonna go for the person who wasn't humiliated by Jimbei and the weakling trio.

So Fujitora low difficulty.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Dislike 1


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## Typhon (Jan 31, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Not really immunity although it's true that Luffy is resistant to those types of techniques.  But I'm not really sure that I agree that Fujitora won that clash.  Both characters sent each other flying.  So wouldn't that make it a somewhat even clash?


Luffy does have blunt force immunity. I don't know if you missed the part in Thriller Bark where Luffy was at the epicenter of Moriah cracking the island and being fine.

And no, they didn't send each other flying. I don't know if you're referring to Luffy punching him with Elephant Gun, but those two exchanges weren't nearly the same. After Luffy got smacked, Zoro was ready to step in because he knew Luffy lost.


> I don't remember Fujitora using Observation Haki to sense everything going on throughout the entire Island throughout the Arc but I do agree that his character's Observation Haki is amazing.  Although still not as impressive as seeing the future.


None of Fugitora's CoO feats are in your face like with Katakuri. You just got to pay attention to his dialogue and how he was always in the area he needed to be. Every CoO user has future sight, Katakuri can just see a little further, so I don't consider it more impressive then someone who clearly showed better sensory abilities


> Fujitora might have superior destructive capabilities but that doesn't really matter much if Lord Katakuri can counter them.  Maneuvering around the gravity is something that Sabo's character has shown to be capable of.  So whether that would immobilize Lord Katakuri is questionable.  And because of Observation Haki Lord Katakuri can preemptively counter whatever Fujitora does.  There are a variety of ways for him to nullify, offset, and/or dodge the Meteors.  Create a high volume of Mochi and have it meet the Meteors far above the battlefield to detonate and/or offset them.  Attempt to seep Mochi into Fujitora so Fujitora has to focus on countering that.  Spamming Gear 3.5 Mochi at the Meteors.  Use Observation Haki to dodge the area of the Meteors.  Whereas the Meteors land around the area that Fujitora is at.


I can just as easily flip this entire paragraph in favor of Fugitora. We're just gonna have to disagree on this one.


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## Sherlōck (Jan 31, 2018)

Everyone talks about Luffy's first EG against Fujitora. Never about his 2nd or 3rd one.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gohara (Jan 31, 2018)

@ Typhon.

True but we've seen blunt type techniques work against Luffy as well with some of The Straw Hat Pirates being surprised about it.  Which is why I'm suggesting that Luffy is resistant to blunt type techniques rather than immune to them.

Being sent flying and what conclusion we draw from that are two separate things though.  Even setting aside our disagreement on what each feat implies they were still sent flying.  But I do respectfully disagree about Zoro.  Saying that it's his turn doesn't necessarily mean that Luffy was incapacitated and we obviously saw that Luffy wasn't incapacitated yet anyways.  But with Luffy temporarily out of Zoro's way Zoro can tag in and match up against Fujitora.

Characters find where they need to be on Islands a lot.  I don't think that gives Fujitora any distinct Observation Haki feats.  I obviously agree that Fujitora is one of the top Observation Haki users that we've seen so far.  But yes Lord Katakuri's Observation Haki feats being more in the fans' faces suggests more emphasis from Oda.  Which is part of why I would argue that Lord Katakuri's Observation Haki is somewhat superior to Fujitora's.  As a blind character Fujitora obviously excels at Observation Haki.  But seeing further into the future in addition to that and being inserted into the plot?  That's a new level from what we've seen so far in my opinion.

I'm assuming that you mean that Fujitora can use Observation Haki to preemptively counter Lord Katakuri's techniques.  But if Lord Katakuri can see even further into the future then couldn't he sense Fujitora doing that?  Being able to see further into the future and also having more impressive speed feats so far gives Lord Katakuri a significant advantage in preemptive strategies.  Based on everything that we've seen from Fujitora so far I don't know what techniques would give him an advantage.  There are no techniques that Lord Katakuri shouldn't be able to counter.  Especially with the advantage in preemptive strategies.  Although to be fair Fujitora might have more techniques in his arsenal that we have yet to see.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (Jan 31, 2018)

@ Sherlock.

Luffy only uses 1 Gear 3rd technique against Fujitora, no?

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Sherlōck (Jan 31, 2018)

Gohara said:


> @ Sherlock.
> 
> Luffy only uses 1 Gear 3rd technique against Fujitora, no?



Why don't you reread the fight yourself.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 1, 2018)

Big Mom has a gravitational pull of her own that is stronger than Fujitora.

On a side note, I don't see how this is anything more than low diff in favor of Big Mom.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 4


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 1, 2018)

Gohara said:


> @ Sherlock.
> 
> Luffy only uses 1 Gear 3rd technique against Fujitora, no?



The fight is chapter 799. Throughout several panels you can see Luffy using some G3 attacks, and they all connect, Zoro even says as much. Fujitora doesn't really have any trouble blocking any of them, the first hit was just Oda ending 798 dramatically. To be fair, Luffy may not have used his full strength to attack the blind guy, but if we can assume that, we also have to assume that Fujitora is also holding back. Logically for the story to make sense, Fujitora is stronger.


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## Gohara (Feb 1, 2018)

I'm assuming that you gentlemen are referring to pages 3 and 4 but Luffy's hands weren't even inflated to a greater height than Fujitora.  Elephant Gun is inflated far more than that in a good way.  Also there are only 2 panels of that and 1 of them is defending against Fujitora rather than the other way around.  With Elephant Gun Gear 3rd Luffy is physically superior but that doesn't necessarily mean that even far inferior Gear 3rd techniques will push back Fujitora every clash.

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## Sherlōck (Feb 1, 2018)

The excuses never stops coming.

Just like Trump supporters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 1, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> The excuses never stops coming.
> 
> Just like Trump supporters.



Classic Gohara. 

Desperately hunting for excuses to maintain his fictional tierlist that he's invested so much time & energy to defending on here.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Gohara (Feb 1, 2018)

????

I’m not sure what you’re arguing that I’m excusing.  You basically stated that even though Gear 3rd Luffy pushes Fujitora back, he successfully defends against multiple Gear 3rd techniques after that.  To which I simply stated that they weren’t anywhere near the size of the one that pushes Fujitora back.  Do you disagree with that?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gohara (Feb 1, 2018)

This is the one that pushes Fujitora back, it's far superior in size to Fujitora.



This is the one that Fujitora successfully defends against, it's not even half of Fujitora's size.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Feb 1, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Desperately hunting for excuses to maintain his fictional tierlist that he's invested so much time & energy to defending on here.



When you entire argument is based on one panel you have to make excuses. That's the life.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Gohara (Feb 2, 2018)

But your argument is also based on 1 panel.  Lol.  In any case, successfully defending against a far smaller technique obviously doesn't invalidate being pushed back by a technique significantly superior in size.  But think what you want, I respect your views.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Feb 2, 2018)

Unless there is big/mid/small different version of G3 attack they are all the same. Oda is just free styling his art. But what he is showing is clear. Fujitora (*without using Armament Haki*) having no problem with Luffy's G3 attack just like he didn't have any problem against *Sabo who is physically superior to G3 Luffy. *

Also my argument is based on his hype, portrayal, feats, his intention during those exchange based on his character & comment from his opponent. Unlike you I don't choose one panel that whether supports my claim or not and hump it till the end to establish my point.

You say you are open to changing your opinion Gohara but after observing you in past years I can say that's not true at all. Even when you are proven wrong you bring up excuses. As I said even if an Admiral comes and defeat the current strongest Yonko Kaido you will still be making excuses for Kaido instead of saying that the said Admiral is strong.

But that's just you being you. I don't expect that to change. If you changed you wouldn't be the GOHARA we all like and love.

It's my last post to you on this topic. Stay well Gohara. Don't let anyone take that "Tier Specialist" award from you.

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## Gohara (Feb 3, 2018)

Observations aren’t perfect.  I’ve changed my rankings of various characters on many occasions, some of them including the Admirals.  And I’m sure that various characters will rank differently at various points of the series.

There’s no reason for me to change my opinion on Luffy vs. Fujitora.  I suggested that based on Gear 3rd Luffy overpowering Fujitora with an Elephant Gun several times Fujitora’s size, Gear 3rd Luffy at full physical strength is physically superior to Fujitora.  Bringing up how Fujitora successfully defends against a much smaller technique is obviously not a counter to that point, assuming that it wasn’t Luffy defending rather than the other way around, so I’m not sure why you thought that it would change my mind.  And obviously there’s no reason to think that I would change my mind just because you decided on your own that Oda meant to draw it several times Fujitora’s size but randomly chose not to.  Luffy can control how much he inflates his techniques.  There have been many occasions where Gear 3rd techniques have varied in that aspect.

But again, your argument is also based on 1 panel.  Is it really fair to constructively criticize an argument based on 1 panel, but then use 1 panel for your argument?  Hype, portrayal, and feats are what we’re discussing.  We can’t rightfully use our conclusions as evidence of themselves.  And I can easily say that I’m basing my argument off of that.

Hey man, that’s up to you.  I have nothing against you.  If you don’t like how I rank the Admirals, it’s all jiggy.  I get that not everyone agrees on everything.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2018)

has big Mum shown enough though 
Think we should wait till her fight to judge
For now I think Fuji


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 3, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> has big Mum shown enough though
> *Think we should wait till her fight to judge*
> For now I think Fuji


You're not going to get an answer there. it's a stomp, BM already one shot Judge.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 14, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Big Mom has a gravitational pull of her own that is stronger than Fujitora.
> 
> On a side note, I don't see how this is anything more than low diff in favor of Big Mom.



fujitora defeats big mom mid to high difficulty.

big mom has been shit throughout the whole arc.

She couldn't even touch Luffy and Jinbei WHILE ENRAGED , she had let 2 of her commanders get defeated by fodders supernovas, she had put herself in a position where she could actually die, she couldn't even accomplish of killing the Germa. She's been shit this whole arc.

Even Jimbei managed to overpower Big mom lol.

Even brook managed to shit on big mom,he bisected zeus right under her feet,and big mom got thundered yet again by a zeus's lighting enhanced  by nami.

Her feats have been rather lacklustre for a top tier and she's been portrayed as nothing more than a dumb powerful berserker ... no class or intelligence in her fighting at all.

She's so obsessed with food it gets in the way of her being able to operate rationality.

let's see her take two up close island splitter quakes from a bloodlusted WSM and have the endurance to keep going on a few minutes later and then let's talk about "invincibility". The fact of the matter is that HALF a SH crew, Capone, Jinbe, Pedro and Carrot have completely trashed and humiliated her this arc - destroyed her cherished Tea Party, stolen a copy of her Poneglyph, eaten her cake, defeated a top fighter of hers, beaten up and abused other subordinates of hers etc etc etc ........ it's been an abysmal portrayal for her and her crew. 

she's been portrayed as a dumb powerful brute, aimlessly swinging her sword without the finesse of a Mihawk or Kizaru and being dumb enough not to even realise when Brook was being replaced from right under her nose or not noticing Jinbe literally escape by steering the Sunny right under her,not even noticing that brook bisected zeus under her feet.

Fujitora managed to lift up the entire rubble of dressrosa,casually shrugging off luffy's gear 3 attacks WHILE holding the entire rubble of dressrosa,this feat alone would vastly shit on anything big mom has done so far


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 14, 2018)

^ I have to point out here that Big Mom tanked a suped up version of a Zeus attack and it barely did anything to her. Zeus is a piece of BM's very soul, and it can sink ships and cause massive storms. Luffy, who regularly does insane stuff whilst smiling, is drawn looking absolutely baffled at the damage output of that Zeus attack. 

BM blocked a running G4 hit with her elbow while standing still. G4 was so strong that in the same situation Doflamingo and Katakuri were completely incapable of stopping themselves from being thrown back violently. BM didn't even move an inch. 

Jinbe is a strong high tier that has an enhanced haki defense, since we haven't seen too many other characters block with a technique (I believe Katakuri did this too when he still had his square mochi active). Jinbe also blocked an Akainu attack before. In terms of feats, she has lived up to her top tier name.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 15, 2018)

Big Mom high or extreme


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## Big Mom (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm going to break this down one by one:




shisuiuchiha5 said:


> She couldn't even touch Luffy and Jinbei WHILE ENRAGED , she had let 2 of her commanders get defeated by fodders supernovas, she had put herself in a position where she could actually die, she couldn't even accomplish of killing the Germa. She's been shit this whole arc



Couldn't even touch? She sent Jinbei flying and damaged him despite him putting up his best haki defense. And when did she even fight Luffy while enraged? All I remember is Luffy and co. running from her and making it by on the skin of their teeth. Also, in this match, what does her two commanders going down have to do with anything? Snack went down to Urouge, yes, but then Cracker swiftly defeated Urouge and sent him packing. Luffy defeated Cracker thanks to the assistance from Nami. 

She didn't kill the Germa because the main characters interfered and because, ya know, plot. In battle, she ABSOLUTELY demolished the Germa, so that more than makes up for it.



> Even Jimbei managed to overpower Big mom lol.



When was this exactly? He hit her and sent her flying, but she recovered pretty quickly with little to no damage actually done to her. And that was a weakened Big Mom. 



> Even brook managed to shit on big mom,he bisected zeus right under her feet,and big mom got thundered yet again by a zeus's lighting enhanced  by nami.



Once again, you are using feats of a severely weakened Big Mom. She already swiftly defeated Brook using Zeus, and tanked all of the thunderbolts Nami sent her way. She also managed to react to a Gear 4 Luffy, so had she not been weakened, she would have been more than capable of reacting to Brook.



> Her feats have been rather lacklustre for a top tier and she's been portrayed as nothing more than a dumb powerful berserker ... no class or intelligence in her fighting at all.



Or you lack the ability to see her feats for what they are, impressive. She tanked arguably the most amount of damage we have ever seen a character take outside of Whitebeard. She is a master of several different fighting styles, including elemental attacks, devil fruit attacks, swordsmanship, brawler, etc. The one and only time we ever saw her get serious, she ended up fodderizing the entire Germa in seconds/minutes, fending off both Luffy and Sanji effortlessly, and clashing with Gear 4 Luffy with a smile on her face. 



> She's so obsessed with food it gets in the way of her being able to operate rationality.



The same can be said of Luffy no?



> let's see her take two up close island splitter quakes from a bloodlusted WSM and have the endurance to keep going on a few minutes later and then let's talk about "invincibility". The fact of the matter is that HALF a SH crew, Capone, Jinbe, Pedro and Carrot have completely trashed and humiliated her this arc - destroyed her cherished Tea Party, stolen a copy of her Poneglyph, eaten her cake, defeated a top fighter of hers, beaten up and abused other subordinates of hers etc etc etc ........ it's been an abysmal portrayal for her and her crew.



Honestly, I'm sure she would be able to take two quake punches from Whitebeard, especially if Akainu can (and Akainu doesn't have a reputation as an Iron Balloon). 

Yes, that happened, but you are discounting the fact that this is One Piece and the main characters are the Strawhats, of course they will be able to accomplish this. 




> she's been portrayed as a dumb powerful brute, aimlessly swinging her sword without the finesse of a Mihawk or Kizaru and being dumb enough not to even realise when Brook was being replaced from right under her nose or not noticing Jinbe literally escape by steering the Sunny right under her,not even noticing that brook bisected zeus under her feet.
> 
> Fujitora managed to lift up the entire rubble of dressrosa,casually shrugging off luffy's gear 3 attacks WHILE holding the entire rubble of dressrosa,this feat alone would vastly shit on anything big mom has done so far



She was aimlessly swinging her blade while in her enraged mode, we have no idea of her usage with it when not. Also, she was asleep when Brook was stolen (and still almost killed the Strawhats). And ONCE AGAIN, those are the feats of a weakened enraged Big Mom. 

I found Big Mom creating a gigantic storm over Whole Cake Island to be impressive.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Milkydean (Feb 16, 2018)

Katakuri being such a beast should speak volumes about how much of a beast BM is gonna be.At this point I feel Katakuri should easily give high-extreme diff fight to Fujitora.That pretty much sums up that Fuji is gonna have a lot of trouble against sane BM.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 18, 2018)

Katakuri is literally stronger than starving Big Meme, this is undisputeable at this point.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 18, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Katakuri is literally stronger than starving Big Meme, this is undisputeable at this point.



If BM plans to fight another top tier she better bring a packed lunch with her or a bucket of KFC.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Sherlōck (Feb 18, 2018)

*Destructive Power =* Fierce Tiger >> Ikoku (her strongest attack for now)

*Durability =* Meme. 

*Color of Observation =* I am going to give it to the blind.

*Color of Armament =* Meme managed to take a Kong Gun using CoA even though she at least has freakish durability. Fujitora so far didn't use CoA against any opponent. not even against Sabo so it remain to be seen.

*Conqueror's Haki =* No idea if Fujitora has it or not.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Magnet40 (Feb 22, 2018)

Big Mom mid-high/ high-low diff

Her strength is greater than his. On Zeus she’s probably faster than he is, and gravity won’t work on Prometheus like it didnt on Sabo, then she could rush him on Zeus and use Prometheus to drop enormous fire on them, and stall him with Napelom Swordplay

Reactions: Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 22, 2018)

Big Mom isn't eating Issho's Ramen. He high diffs her. After 8+ hours of the fight she will start to weaken and starve while Fuji can go on for up to 10 days.

Issho simply outlasts her. And she haven't shown anything to overwhelm him straight away.


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## Shrike (Feb 22, 2018)

Big Mom high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dries Mertens (Feb 23, 2018)

Big Meme high.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Big Mom has a gravitational pull of her own that is stronger than Fujitora.
> 
> On a side note, I don't see how this is anything more than low diff in favor of Big Mom.


 big mom would low difficulty fujitora?are you stupid?

*Big Mom has a gravitational pull of her own that is stronger than Fujitora.*
waht do you mean by saying that big mom has a  gravitational pull of her own that is stronger than Fujitora?

look at how shit she is

she could not even touch luffy and jimbei WHILE ENRAGED



even a scrub like chooper managed to stop her attacks



even jimbei managed to overpower big mom,jimbei did something soo great that even daifuku was surprised,just shows how pathetically weak big mom is



even brook managed to shit on big mom and bisect zeus



she got thundered again and is in pain



big mom has been a joke soo far,she cant even capture half a straw hat crew lol,this has been by far the worst display of any top tier character so far.

what makes you think that someone with such poor display of feats is going to low difficulty fujitora?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 11, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> big mom would low difficulty fujitora?are you stupid?
> 
> *Big Mom has a gravitational pull of her own that is stronger than Fujitora.*
> waht do you mean by saying that big mom has a gravitational pull of her own that is stronger than Fujitora?
> ...


You aren't very smart are you?

Big Mom >>>> G4 Luffy >>>>> G3 Luffy >>> Ishoo

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You aren't very smart are you?
> 
> Big Mom >>>> G4 Luffy >>>>> G3 Luffy >>> Ishoo



 big mom has been shit throughout the entire arc,she can barely capture the straw hats,she could not even touch luffy and jimbei while enraged,she is getting tired after a few hours of fighting against fodders,she has been shit throughout tthe entire arc.and lol just becuase luffy in g3 pushed back fujitora doesnt mean luffy is way stronger than him.
zoro pushed back fujitora as well,so does that mean fujitora is weaker than zoro?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exping (Mar 11, 2018)

Big mom slaps fujitora

then fuji blocks it with his sword and uses slices her head off


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 11, 2018)

Lol at people thinking Fujitora will Mid diff Big Mom. 

Also I think people are confusing her condition. Her children refer to her condition as "One of her fits". That suggests it's an occasional thing. It doesn't happen every time she fights longer than an hour. How would she become a Yonkou without being able to fight strong opponents? That does't even add up. Some of the Luffy fights pre-ts had him use up days worth of stamina that he had to sleep off later and eat to regain. Big Mom would've been dead a long time ago if she got into one of those fits every time she had to exert her energy and got hungry.


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## Luceus (Mar 12, 2018)

She wins high difficulty unless there's PIS


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 20, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Big Mom has a gravitational pull of her own that is stronger than Fujitora.
> 
> On a side note, I don't see how this is anything more than low diff in favor of Big Mom.



Nobody in the series can low difficulty the admirals,not even Roger.

Fujitora wins high difficulty.
All fujitora needs to do is simply gravity crush big mom,and since big mom is a very heavy person,she is not getting out of the gravity.

Then fujitora can drop meteors on big mom,and big mom can't handle meteors.

Fujitora wins high difficulty

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 20, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Nobody in the series can low difficulty the admirals,not even Roger.
> 
> Fujitora wins high difficulty.
> All fujitora needs to do is simply gravity crush big mom,and since big mom is a very heavy person,she is not getting out of the gravity.
> ...


1) Fan fiction, right out of your asshole, you have zero evidence of this, however whitebeard if he was healthier and old would 2 hit akainu without being hit once, that's low difficulty, so prime wins even harder.

2) That's fucking retarded, ishoo is weaker than katakuri potentially

Reactions: Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 20, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Fan fiction, right out of your asshole, you have zero evidence of this, however whitebeard if he was healthier and old would 2 hit akainu without being hit once, that's low difficulty, so prime wins even harder.
> 
> 2) That's fucking retarded, ishoo is weaker than katakuri potentially



how is katakuri going to be stronger than fujitora when he lost to a scrub like luffy??

katakuri had an undefeated record because he did not fight akainu aokiji and the other admirals.

kizaru vs katakuri:
kizaru can low difficulty katakuri.

If sanji can dodge katakuri then I have no doubts that kizaru would speedblitz him for days.

Also katakuri could not even dodge Luffy in snakeman

also kizaru can travel at the speed of light which makes him easily the fastest character in one piece.

even if katakuri has a very good observation haki,even he would not be able to dodge attacks which are at speed of light


katakuri vs fujitora:
all fujitora needs to do is gravity crush katakuri and drop a meteor.

katakuri cannot deal with meteors and  ferocious tiger would be enough to kill him.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Optimistic 2


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 21, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Fan fiction, right out of your asshole, you have zero evidence of this, however whitebeard if he was healthier and old would 2 hit akainu without being hit once, that's low difficulty, so prime wins even harder.
> 
> 2) That's fucking retarded, ishoo is weaker than katakuri potentially



how the hell is issho/fujitora weaker than katakuri?

aside from  kenbonshoku haki ,fujitora is vastly superior than katakuri in every aspect.
fujitora can gravity crush katakuri and can simply drop meteors.
the guy lost to a scrub like luffy,he is not going to win against admirals.

commanders are  trash

it took luffy only 18 months to reach commander level,and he has already destroyed cracker and katakuri,but he is stilll nowhere near admiral level


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 21, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Fan fiction, right out of your asshole, you have zero evidence of this, however whitebeard if he was healthier and old would 2 hit akainu without being hit once, that's low difficulty, so prime wins even harder.
> 
> 2) That's fucking retarded, ishoo is weaker than katakuri potentially



Aokiji is an admiral. He lasted against Akainu for 10 days. Akainu is also an admiral.

Marco is a Yonkou FM. He lasted against Akainu for 10 seconds.

Two admirals superior to a FM, and the assumption is FM => Admiral? 

Katakuri controls Mochi. Luffy ate through his awakening.

Fujitora controls Gravity. Luffy was completely helplessly tossed when he actually used his gravity.

Luffy was shown beating Katakuri.

Luffy was shown escaping from Fujitora.

Katakuri's final attack against Luffy was a diced Mochi move that a heavily injured Luffy tanked and recovered from in 10 minutes.

Fujitora's test meteors (that he can use while eating) sent Doflamingo, the SHs, and Law into a panic.

How is it retarded to think Fujitora is superior to Katakuri? Isn't it a bit more silly to think Katakuri is stronger than a character that the main character had to escape from?

Luffy ate his awakening that Katakuri himself said was meant to kill him. On top of that Katakuri said he always takes his opponents seriously and was portrayed being dead serious against Luffy. He still lost. He has no more to show. Accept that Katakuri was a cool guy that popped up, but his time is up. Him beating the shit out of Luffy for awhile doesn't mean he's admiral level, Lucci and Croc did the same shit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## GilDLax (Mar 21, 2018)

Elephant Gun's size is an argument? Did people read MFWar and see how size fluctuated like no tomorrow? Oda sucks with size.

It happens all the time in manga. Excuse me but mangaka doesn't write manga for readers to do calc. They don't take extra measure to assure every single panel got the right perspective and size. That's why that calc of the Coloseum got 3 different results.

But we know the author's intent because Luffy only has Elephant Gun or the likes as techniques that would enlarge his hand. So he must have used it. Simple as that. Until Oda shows Luffy screaming Mini Elephant Gun or Super Elephant Gun which would canonically confirm he had different versions that line of reasoning is baseless.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 21, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Elephant Gun's size is an argument? Did people read MFWar and see how size fluctuated like no tomorrow? Oda sucks with size.
> 
> It happens all the time in manga. Excuse me but mangaka doesn't write manga for readers to do calc. They don't take extra measure to assure every single panel got the right perspective and size. That's why that calc of the Coloseum got 3 different results.
> 
> But we know the author's intent because Luffy only has Elephant Gun or the likes as techniques that would enlarge his hand. So he must have used it. Simple as that. Until Oda shows Luffy screaming Mini Elephant Gun or Super Elephant Gun which would canonically confirm he had different versions *that line of reasoning is baseless.*



That's the problem with a lot of the reasoning on this forum. Something like 30% of the scaling on here is based off of Luffy's G3 punch proving Fujitora isn't "admiral level," and that XYZ character is stronger. It's too engrained in people's heads that Oda was sending a million secret messages that the admiral who was described as a monster is somehow a weakling. Thus they use panels like that to keep the illusion going.

I remember during MF he had a punch that was literally the size of a giant.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Mar 21, 2018)

Luffy can inflate his body parts however much he wants.  There's no rule that it has to be one size each and every time that he inflates.  And I'm not really sure how that argument works.  That argument doesn't leave Oda any room to show different sizes of inflation because that argument will simply label those as incorrect drawings, that's using the premise as both the argument and the conclusion.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 21, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Luffy can inflate his body parts however much he wants.  There's no rule that it has to be one size each and every time that he inflates.  And I'm not really sure how that argument works.  That argument doesn't leave Oda any room to show different sizes of inflation because that argument will simply label those as incorrect drawings, that's using the premise as both the argument and the conclusion.



The point of the argument is that the exact size of the punch isn't relevant to its strength. The attack that Luffy uses is the same attack no matter what, we aren't in a position to assume a bigger G3 punch also = a better one.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## GilDLax (Mar 21, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Luffy can inflate his body parts however much he wants. There's no rule that it has to be one size each and every time that he inflates.


No one said otherwise. And indeed, we're saying the size totally does change so that does not at all refute the point. What is said is totally different: whether that change in size means what you think.

The irrefutable reality is size fluctuates in One Piece (if you don't even know this...) so of course such rule is not possible to establish to begin with. Depends on panel, its aesthetic, emotional expressiveness and whatnot, or straight up mistake, Oda would draw them differently even though still the same technique or character. In those panels for example, if Oda drew Elephant Gun as big as the first one on Fuji, he would have no room for that much talk bubbles*.

YOU actually ARE* the one setting up a rule which is difference in size must mean difference in power. The burden of proof falls on you to prove it's absolutely the case that the difference in size there means something. 

People are saying such rule is weak and baseless. It's not that it's impossible. Just everything is against it right now.





Gohara said:


> And I'm not really sure how that argument works. That argument doesn't leave Oda any room to show different sizes of inflation because that argument will simply label those as incorrect drawings


You indeed don't know how that argument works because it isn't what you just said in any way. The argument isn't _''will simply label those as incorrect drawings''_. It's _''those can be incorrect drawings until there's evidence proving otherwise''_.

No room? LOL no, there's technique name. If Fishmen Karate can have number of tiles to denotes the power level of the strike, and Oda has before named technique with Hardening in it to denotes, well, the power of the strike is added with CoA, then why not a Mini Elephant Gun or Super EG? But Oda didn't do that. So EG is EG. The author's intention is clear.





Gohara said:


> that's using the premise as both the argument and the conclusion.


What we know: Fact is that Oda sucks with size and perspective. Same character has different size in different panels. And Oda can totally use technique's name to tell the difference but he didn't.
Conclusion: Any difference in size is therefore taken with a grain of salt and not at all an evidence of power of the technique. And when Oda doesn't even bother having different technique names, it is indeed not the evidence.

Nothing circular about the reasoing...


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 21, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> That's the problem with a lot of the reasoning on this forum. Something like 30% of the scaling on here is based off of Luffy's G3 punch proving Fujitora isn't "admiral level," and that XYZ character is stronger. It's too engrained in people's heads that Oda was sending a million secret messages that the admiral who was described as a monster is somehow a weakling. Thus they use panels like that to keep the illusion going.
> 
> I remember during MF he had a punch that was literally the size of a giant.



I've been arguing this for ages on here to no avail.

It's like that dirtmark that Fujitora got which mysteriously vanished the next chapter. Oda draws these things because they look cool & flashy and not because he's attempting to convey any deeper message about how these small details reflect on "_*muh powerlevelz". *_He's a busy man who has to plan & draw an entire chapter almost once a week and he simply doesn't have time to really care too much about this petty level of minuita - frankly he'd be horrified if he saw the extent of how people on here attempt to twist & shoehorn any minor detail of these "scuffles" (they're not even worth calling fights) to support their own biased tierlists. 


Moreover what he really cares about is the bigger picture, holistic storyline items, e.g. Fujitora being referred to as a monster who was constantly portrayed as a good guy with conflicting feelings about the morality of going after Luffy and ultimately reluctant to do so, instead prioritising his own mission (undermining the Shichibukai system) . That's what he kept reinforcing and hammering during the DR arc and that's what really should be weighted heavily when attempting to gain a fair judgement on Fujitora's strength ..... not "_lulz pushed back by G3" _or "_lulz scuffed up". _

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Gohara (Mar 21, 2018)

@ Gil.

I'm not creating a rule that superior size equals superior physical strength.  Luffy creates the idea of inflating in order to use techniques that are of superior physical strength.  Gear 3rd is created as a physical strength based form.  Luffy obviously thinks that inflating equals superior physical strength.

And your post doesn't really explain how you're not making a rule.  You're basically saying that if Oda doesn't give each specific size of inflation a name for those techniques they are automatically the same exact Elephant Gun that Luffy initially uses against Fujitora.  And I'm not sure why we would assume that if it's not a named technique it's automatically the same as that degree of an Elephant Gun.  Yes, Oda does occasionally create new technique names for superior quality versions of the same technique.  But he doesn't do that in every such example.  It's not like he gives Mihawk's sword slashes against Mr. 1 and Crocodile technique names such as smaller bite sized World's Most Powerful Slash and bite sized World's Most Powerful Slash.  Yet those sword slashes aren't equal to the World's Most Powerful Slash because of the lack of named techniques.  Zoro doesn't get new technique names every time that he uses comparable motions and/or stances.

You ask, why doesn't Oda call it super Elephant Gun?  Because if Oda creates a new technique name every time a character uses a technique that varies in quality he would have to create a trillion techniques.  That doesn't necessarily give fans the liberal freedom to label any unnamed technique the named technique that looks most like it and argue that Oda simply draws it different sizes but means for them to be around the same quality.  I don't know why you would find it so strange for Luffy to use different inflation variations of Gear 3rd without it being the same technique and/or having new technique names.

Admiral => Yonkou fans often argue that Aokiji doesn't use Ice Age against Doflamingo's character but using that argument I can simply say that Oda intends for it to be Ice Age.


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## GilDLax (Mar 22, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I'm not creating a rule that superior size equals superior physical strength. Luffy creates the idea of inflating in order to use techniques that are of superior physical strength. Gear 3rd is created as a physical strength based form. Luffy obviously thinks that inflating equals superior physical strength.


You are arguing Strawman. We all know how G3 works, the point is Oda's art is not absolute indication. You still don't understand the debate? I'm not talking about in-verse logic, I'm talking about Oda's intention and readers' perception.

It's never about doubting whether blowing air in his limbs increases strength because how G3 works confirms it does. It's about whether Oda's art and dialogue/technique name actually accurately reflect that and the former is fucking inadequate as evidence due to a horrible track record of varying sizes of the same character and the later can be done but too bad, in Luffy's EG's case? Nope!




Gohara said:


> And your post doesn't really explain how you're not making a rule. You're basically saying that if Oda doesn't give each specific size of inflation a name for those techniques they are automatically the same exact Elephant Gun that Luffy initially uses against Fujitora.


Funny how you say it doesn't explain then go on saying how it does...

I'm not making the rule. Like I said, Oda DOES use technique name as a mean to convey how strong the technique is as shown with Fishmen Karate and Hardening technique. So when he does not do that, like ever, for a technique then the intention is clear.




Gohara said:


> But he doesn't do that in every such example. It's not like he gives Mihawk's sword slashes against Mr. 1 and Crocodile technique names such as smaller bite sized World's Most Powerful Slash and bite sized World's Most Powerful Slash. Yet those sword slashes aren't equal to the World's Most Powerful Slash because of the lack of named techniques. Zoro doesn't get new technique names every time that he uses comparable motions and/or stances.


Mihawk never have a named technique. That was just fodders' commentary LOL so it's a non-point on your part.

As for Zolo, which panels are you referring to?




Gohara said:


> You ask, why doesn't Oda call it super Elephant Gun? Because if Oda creates a new technique name every time a character uses a technique that varies in quality he would have to create a trillion techniques.


First of all, what's wrong with trillion? If Oda wants to, he would do it. This is the guy who refuses to reuse past panels for flashback and actually draws them new because he feels being paid again for panels he drew before is like cheating the publisher. Why assume your own standard of _''too much work''_ is the same as his? Arrogant much?

Second, trillion? Exaggeration is good and all as expression but be careful cause sometimes you might really believe it.
No, it doesn't have to be trillion, just as many times as Luffy uses it on-screen, which is...like every other time he draws a technique name in bubble talk. And suddenly you think that's a hassle LOL You might as well call drawing itself impossible and every mangaka ever should quit their job.


Third, you actually just assume Oda really intends to draw that many techniques hence giving the same amount of names is not practical but...isn't that the very same thing you have to prove? That Oda's intention is indeed the difference in size is difference in power? That's baseless precisely because Oda's art canonically is not that accurate in terms of size.




Gohara said:


> Admiral => Yonkou fans often argue that Aokiji doesn't use Ice Age against Doflamingo's character but using that argument I can simply say that Oda intends for it to be Ice Age.


I'm not sure how Admiral>=Yonkou debate concerns Doflamingo...


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## Raiden34 (Mar 22, 2018)

I would choose Big Mom against any Admiral except for Akainu, and even with Akainu I don't see him winning. Big Mom wins.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 22, 2018)

Gohara said:


> @ Gil.
> 
> I'm not creating a rule that superior size equals superior physical strength.  Luffy creates the idea of inflating in order to use techniques that are of superior physical strength.  Gear 3rd is created as a physical strength based form.  Luffy obviously thinks that inflating equals superior physical strength.
> 
> ...



You definitely implied the size = strength thing, and then you acted like someone else said it.


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## Gohara (Mar 22, 2018)

@ Gil.

The thing is that your argument is too arbitrary.  To start out, there are no inconsistencies in my argument.  I simply stated what is shown, Luffy pushing back Fujitora with a significant sized Elephant Gun.  The counter argument being used is "Fujitora blocks significantly smaller sized punches but Oda actually intends for them to be the same exact quality as the initial Elephant Gun used in that match up".  That's an arbitrary argument.  Fans don't have the liberal freedom to rightfully base arguments off of what they think Oda is intending.

Yes, drawings are sometimes not perfect and there can be inconsistencies with scaling.  But that doesn't have any commentary specifically in the match up that we're talking about.  We can't decide when Oda is and isn't doing that based solely on the idea that the scaling is sometimes inconsistent.  There has to be some other type of reason that ties into that.  In other words, you have to be able to prove that Luffy can't simply be using lesser sized techniques.  And you talk as if I should know that Oda has always intended for them to be the same techniques even when they are different sizes.  I don't know about you but to me it always seemed obvious that Luffy can simply manipulate the size of the punch that he wants to throw and that they naturally vary occasionally.  Not once when Luffy has used a different sized punch have I thought "That's basically the same technique as that other one but Oda drew it incorrectly!".  I don't know why you think I should be under that impression.

And I'm also not sure why you think that I need to be the one proving anything.  My argument is simply that Luffy pushed Fujitora back with that initial punch.  If the counter argument is that Fujitora resists being pushed back against the same techniques throughout that match up the counter argument needs to prove that the techniques are the same size and/or that Oda intends for them to be the same quality regardless of size and technique name.  Without proof those are non-arguments.

Oda does sometimes use technique names to convey things like that but not always and again using it the way that you are in that argument is arbitrary.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 4, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Fan fiction, right out of your asshole, you have zero evidence of this, however whitebeard if he was healthier and old would 2 hit akainu without being hit once, that's low difficulty, so prime wins even harder.
> 
> 2) That's fucking retarded, ishoo is weaker than katakuri potentially



How the hell is katakuri stronger than fujitora?

Fujitora can gravity crush katakuri,he can also use ferocious tiger to seriously damage katakuri.

Fujitora would gravity crush him and simply drop meteors on katakuri and would destroy him.

There is no way katakuri can deal with meteors.

Big mom is a heavy person and a gravity crush would be enough to pin her down and dropping multiple meteors would finish off big mom easily


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Apr 4, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> How the hell is katakuri stronger than fujitora?
> 
> Fujitora can gravity crush katakuri,he can also use ferocious tiger to seriously damage katakuri.
> 
> ...


Ishoo's best feat is looking fairly poor against non g4 Luffy.
Katakuri was overpowering g4 Luffy.

He doesn't have teh ability to just spawn debris to use with gravity attacks like when he attacked the ships at the end when they were sailing away, nor are his meteors enough to do shit to katakuri even without kenbunshoku.

Sorry but Katakuri is stronger than pre mastery fire logia sabo, so ferocious tiger isn't doing shit. 

It's hilarious how you think that attacks that didn't work on weaker characters would destroy Katakuri though.

No way for Katkauri to deal with meteors? Doflamingo is weaker than Cracker and Katakuri and he did. Katakuri just dodges them or powers through them like g3 LUffy would. 

That last part is fucking retarded, like holy shit do you hear yourself talk?


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 4, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Ishoo's best feat is looking fairly poor against non g4 Luffy.
> Katakuri was overpowering g4 Luffy.
> 
> He doesn't have teh ability to just spawn debris to use with gravity attacks like when he attacked the ships at the end when they were sailing away, nor are his meteors enough to do shit to katakuri even without kenbunshoku.
> ...



Fujitora was not being serious against Luffy and also he was holding back his strength.

Fujitora was holding all the rubble of dressrosa which hindered a d strained his body a lot,and fujitora did not even use haki against g3 Luffy.

Also the only reason why doflamingo even managed to deal with the meteors is because he has the cutting ability.

He has that specific ability to chop up things is the reason why he could deal with metwors.

It is similar to how Mr 3 managed to deal with magellan poison because he has that specific ability (wax) to deal with his poison.

Sorry but issho would gravity crush katakuri and katakuri would not be able to move an inch,and a meteor would finish him off.

Neither gear 3 nor katakuri can deal with meteors

Also that fodder fatso big mom can barely capture the straw hats.she is getting her whole crew trashed by half a straw hats campone bege Pedro jimbei carrot etc.it has been an abysmal display of big mom and her crew.

She got shitted on by scrubs like nami and Brook but somehow you think that fodder fatso big mom would low difficulty fujitora?


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Apr 4, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Fujitora was not being serious against Luffy and also he was holding back his strength.
> 
> Also the only reason why doflamingo even managed to deal with the meteors is because he has the cutting ability.
> 
> ...


Based on what? You can't use fan wank as canon.

"the only reason why doflamingo even managed to deal....."
That's stupid, Katakuri destroys the meteors, low to mid diff.

Doflamingo doesn't have a special ability, he simply uses cutting strings to attack, Law had hax to cut through them, doflamingo just outright cut them. 

No he wouldn't gravity rush Katakuri, stop making bullshit up, you are a horrible shit poster. Katakuri would move fine, katakuri never showed the ability to stop even mid tier people, let alone top tiers.

Katakuri is Luffy'ish leveled (and he's gotten multiple power ups since shitting on issho with katakuri)

She didn't get shat on by nami and brook, sorry.

Seriously, it's gone past the point of you being the worst poster in this section, you're just an absolute joke.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 4, 2018)

Mera Sabo is a little weaker than Katakuri and current Luffy and he couldn't do shit to Fujitora. In fact he couldn't even scratch the admiral. Therefore Katakuri is not winning against any admiral, alot people forget that and just consider outliers that back up their unreasonable claims.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Apr 4, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Mera Sabo is a little weaker than Katakuri and current Luffy and he couldn't do shit to Fujitora. In fact he couldn't even scratch the admiral. Therefore Katakuri is not winning against any admiral, alot people forget that and just consider outliers that back up their unreasonable claims.


"couldn't do shit"

Sabo stand stood him with MAYBE a slight disadvantage.

Luffy bruised Issho, Issho didn't do ANY damage to Luffy, so what's your point?

Issho is weaker than kizaru, aokiji, and akainu based on feats.

You ignore the fact that Sabo vs Issho was a complete stand-still with maybe sabo having a slight disadvantage with stamina or something.
And Issho didn't defeat non g4 Luffy, nor did he do any actual damage to him unlike katakuri who was beating him up constantly.


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## Dunno (Apr 4, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> "couldn't do shit"
> 
> Sabo stand stood him with MAYBE a slight disadvantage.
> 
> ...


Luffy bruised Issho the same way Mihawk bruised Jozu.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> "couldn't do shit"
> 
> Sabo stand stood him with MAYBE a slight disadvantage.
> 
> ...



Fujitora was treating sabo like a joke.
Sabo could barely keep up with fujitora.
Luffy bruised fujitora?oh are you talking about that dirt mark which vanished a chapter later?fujitora was not even fighting Luffy seriously and was holding back,it's pretty obvious.he was also hindered because he was holding all the rubble of dressrosa as well.you really like to downplay the admirals too much.
Just admit it,katakuri was a scrub who didn't fight anybody on top,which is why he had that undefeated record.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Apr 5, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Luffy bruised Issho the same way Mihawk bruised Jozu.


One was bruised, Jozu wasn't at all, Jozu casually parried.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> "couldn't do shit"
> 
> Sabo stand stood him with MAYBE a slight disadvantage.
> 
> ...



Issho completely fucked Sabo over without trying. From your perspective it makes G2/3 Luffy > Issho > Sabo
But i guess you won't like that.
Problem is that Sabo > Luffy > Issho doesn't work either because Sabo got bent over by Fujitora.

Your in a real dilemma now boy. I wonder what you can integrate from your headcanon to change that.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Dunno (Apr 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> One was bruised, Jozu wasn't at all, Jozu casually parried.


Jozu had marks on his cheeks looking like #. Fujitora had marks on his cheeks looking like #. In both cases, the marks disappeared the very next time we saw them, which was only moments later. If one of them was bruised, both of them were, although unless you believe that Jozu and Fujitora have Marco level regeneration, you would recognize that the marks were only dirt or dust.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> One was bruised, Jozu wasn't at all, Jozu casually parried.



the only reason why jozu managed to parry with mihawk's attacks was because it was one of mihawk's weakest slashes.
it was a casual one armed slash also it was an unnamed attack,hell even zoro could probably throw an attack stronger than what mihawk used against whitebeard

Reactions: Like 1


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You aren't very smart are you?
> 
> Big Mom >>>> G4 Luffy >>>>> G3 Luffy >>> Ishoo



Just because gear 3 Luffy pushed back fujitora doesn't mean that luffy in gear 3 is Stronger than fujitora

Zoro pushed back fujitora, that mean Zoro is Stronger than fujitora as well right? it is a really bad arguement.

Sorry but fujitora wins with high difficulty

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Apr 5, 2018)

Fujitora owning Sabo is simply no where near the case and the idea that Fujitora isn't trying in that match up is speculative.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Gohara (Apr 5, 2018)

Some people work and enjoy the distractions but that doesn't necessarily suggest that they're not trying at work.  I'm not disagreeing that Fujitora is looking for a match up to distract his character so that he doesn't get caught not participating in that war but looking for a distraction doesn't require a character to not try in that match up.  Also Fujitora thinks of Sabo as such an opponent that it creates an excuse.  If Fujitora thought that Sabo isn't even in the same tier then how would it work as an excuse?  So basically distractions =/= not trying.  And Fujitora wouldn't use a character as a distraction if it doesn't make sense for that character to match up on par with his character.  Maynard's opinion is no different than when the protagonists best antagonists.  Subordinates always find it strange for characters to match up on par with their leaders.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 6, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Fujitora owning Sabo is simply no where near the case and the idea that Fujitora isn't trying in that match up is speculative.



It is heavily implied that Fujitora is once again not taking his job seriously. We actually have some what of a pattern with Fuji you can notice. When he starts to get serious, he says something ominous, like with the gamblers, Law, and Luffy. Then he goes aggressive offense. If his heart's not in it, he defends a lot and talks about nothing


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 6, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> It is heavily implied that Fujitora is once again not taking his job seriously. We actually have some what of a pattern with Fuji you can notice. When he starts to get serious, he says something ominous, like with the gamblers, Law, and Luffy. Then he goes aggressive offense. If his heart's not in it, he defends a lot and talks about nothing


How serious was Sabo given that his only goal was to stop the Marines from proceeding???


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## TheWiggian (Apr 6, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> How serious was Sabo given that his only goal was to stop the Marines from proceeding???



Your running out of options boy.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 6, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Your running out of options boy.



''Issho completely fucked Sabo over without trying. '''  When you use named moves, dropping meteors etc while doing no damage you completely fucked over the other guy without trying huh???

Especially when the other guy doesn't even use named moves like against Burgess and keeps up with you

Tell me more son.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 6, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> ''Issho completely fucked Sabo over without trying. '''  When you use named moves, dropping meteors etc while doing no damage you completely fucked over the other guy without trying huh???
> 
> Especially when the other guy doesn't even use named moves like against Burgess and keeps up with you
> 
> Tell me more son.





￼
Poor boy still haven't recovered after Fujitora left.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 6, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> ￼
> Poor boy still haven't recovered after Fujitora left.



Yeah such wicked scars and blood on him   I can only imagine if Fujitora was serious and used meteors, named moves and shit

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Apr 6, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yeah such wicked scars and blood on him   I can only imagine if Fujitora was serious and used meteors, named moves and shit



Poor boy was helpless against the mighty admiral. He was sitting there catching his breath till Koala arrived and helped him out of his trauma.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 6, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Poor boy was helpless against the mighty admiral. He was sitting there catching his breath till Koala arrived and helped him out of his trauma.


Mighty admiral that did no damage 

Poor Fuji throwing around named moves and meteors, trying his best to put even a cut on Sabo, while Sabo lazily tests his fruit not even trying to hurt the geezer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Apr 6, 2018)

Tale said:


> No, he doesn't. There are good excuses and bad excuses.
> Fujitora not going after Luffy because he decided to let dice rolls determine his fate is a _bad excuse _(especially considering that he let him off the hook anyway when the dice roll's result was unfavourable to Luffy).
> Fujitora not going after DD because he was "busy" pushing back the Bird Cage (where there is yet another implication that he wasn't pushing as hard as the others...) is a _bad excuse. _Even if he is as weak as you claim, assisting Luffy would have saved everyone much faster. He was looking for every reason not to interfere.
> 
> You say that Maynard's reaction was simply the reaction of an underling seeing his superior not performing as well as he expected, and while that is possible, what reason is there to prefer this interpretation? We are actually shown that Maynard on the basis of that begins to suspect Fujitora has an ulterior motive and that there was much more to the words spoken in chapter 747, which is a suspicion that is obviously correct. From his point of view, it was a bad excuse.



I don't want to step too close but the result will be the same like talking to a wall.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Gohara (Apr 7, 2018)

Fujitora doesn't think that it's a bad excuse otherwise why would he use it?  It's not that I prefer any interpretations from Maynard.  But why would I take Maynard's opinions against Fujitora's opinions?  Fujitora has a far superior idea of his and Sabo's skills and is far more intelligent, and none of that disagrees with the idea that distractions =/= not trying.


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## Gohara (Apr 7, 2018)

@ doctor.

It's only implied that Fujitora is using that match up as an excuse to not interfere in that war but again distractions are not necessarily causation for not trying


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 1, 2020)

Either way extreme diff.


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## Draco Bolton (Sep 1, 2020)

It's allowed in OP Battledome to necroing dead threads ?

OT: BM (non PIS) high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Sep 1, 2020)

Necroing thread is better than creating a new thread and expecting a different outcome.


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## Fel1x (Sep 2, 2020)

2 years have passed and BM still soloes


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## Admiral Ryokugyu (Sep 3, 2020)

Her portrayal is horrendous. If she behaved like that against an Admiral, she'd get murked. But then again she fought Kaido for a day and a night to a standstill, so it seems she's a decent fighter when off-panel.

The thing with Big Mom is that she likely has the strongest body in the seires, even more than Kaido because I think his "immortality" has a lot to do with his Dragon scales, whereas Big Mom has a naturally crazy body. She's so tough that Oda feels like he has to handicap her with autism, diabetes, food tantrums, amnesia and mental retardation. Also shit tier CoO and reaction speed.

OT, Big Mom wins, I'm just not sure how exactly.


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## GreenBull956 (Sep 3, 2020)

extreme daiffu either way but imma say BM wins currently , could change depending on how the Admirals compare to her post Wano


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## Corax (Sep 3, 2020)

Nothing has changed to be fair. But,no. At this point even Franky/Brook troll her while she is at 100% and has all homies and Luffy dodge her Elbaf spears in base left and right. And no excuse for her this time,as she is at 100% and mid. trio+Jinbei still troll her. Oda constantly trolls her and each chapter it becomes even worse.


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## Beast (Sep 3, 2020)

Feel like Fuji might beat Mihawk... so, I’ll go with Fuji. 
Better then Shiryuu beating Mihawk.


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## Moldrew (Sep 3, 2020)

Big Mom high diffs.


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## Sherlōck (Sep 3, 2020)

Beast said:


> Feel like Fuji might beat Mihawk... so, I’ll go with Fuji.


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## Lord Melkor (Sep 6, 2020)

I still would give it to Big Mom high difficulty, despite the recent trolling.......unless Fuji throws her into sea.


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## Corax (Sep 6, 2020)

Lord Melkor said:


> I still would give it to Big Mom high difficulty, despite the recent trolling.......unless Fuji throws her into sea.


And Fuji throws her in the sea. I mean even Kubo trolls his characters less than Oda her.


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## Ruse (Sep 6, 2020)

Big Mom mid/high diff


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## Freechoice (Sep 6, 2020)

If Oda didn't keep making Big Mom act like a retard, she would be extremely formidable. Honestly she's pretty broken hax/power wise.

And yonko>admirals

Like always


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## Gotenks92 (Sep 7, 2020)

Big Mom wins high diff


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## Geralt-Singh (Sep 7, 2020)

Issho cuts her in half


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