# MS Itachi vs Jiraiya (Annual Contest)



## MSAL (Jan 6, 2018)

MS Itachi vs Jiraiya

*Location:* 30% Itachi vs Team Kakashi
*Mindset: *IC
*Knowledge*: Reputation
*Distance*: 15m

*Restrictions: "*GG" and one liners. Jiraiya starts in base.




It's that time of the year again. One of the most intense rivalries in the NBD history begins anew...

Let the fanboy wars, controversy, denial and  epic enjoyment begin.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2018)

MSAL said:


> MS Itachi vs Jiraiya
> 
> *Location:* 30% Itachi vs Team Kakashi
> *Mindset: *IC
> ...



Jiraiya is not pressuring Itachi if he doesn't start in SM.

Itachi low diffs base Jiraiya
Mid diffs SM.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2018)

Jiraiya wins.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 6, 2018)

Itachi wins.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 6, 2018)

Jiraiya wins high diff

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Bonly (Jan 6, 2018)

Jiraiya has better reactions then Sage Naruto and Sage Kabuto as well as being able to come up with the perfect counter to Itachi’s MS jutsu so Jiraiya wins

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Useful 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2018)

The fact Jman starts in base makes this a mid diff win for Itachi

Theres simply nothing Jman can do here, hes not up to par without SM

And even in SM Jman fans admit Itachi gives him a run for his money

The knowledge stips also hurt Jman far more than they hurt Itachi

Jmans hair is amaterasu proof and he can make the hand sign and block with his hair faster than amaterasu that almost tagged V2 A with knowledge 

His reactions allow him to write a complex fire scroll on the fly in response to sensing an oncoming technique hes never sensed before and come up with a perfect counter off the cuff with no knowledge  (despite the fact hes never sensed jutsu buildup ever...roll with it) when a superior sage (kabuto) never sensed the buildup period 

He is somehow gonna enter SM against Itachi despite the fact Sharingan genjutsu gg nullifies any and all summons Jman could use to stall for time 

He will be able to flawlessly deal with itachi without the use of his goddamn hands or summons for a time period of an entire chapter+ 

He is magically immune to genjutsu despite Orochimaru, Deidara, and Sasuke of whom are LIGHTYEARS better equipped to fight it than Jman, by his own admission, all fell prey to it 

Hes also not getting blitzed or feinted ever despite Itachis clone game and speed dealing with far superior reactions or sensing than Jmans 

Jman just too stronk bruh

He neg diffs with hari fucking jizo

Get this uchiha scrub outta the sannin house

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 6, 2018)

Jiraiya wins 

Didn't know I could rustle this much jimmies

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Jiraiya wins
> 
> Inb4 people who used to argue Itachi has garbage stamina, somehow shift say he spams MS


Hes got more than enough stamina for an amaterasu shot half the size of a damn fortress 

But then again im sure an *unsuspecting, unprepared base Jman* will have his fire scroll written by then right

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Hes got more than enough stamina for an amaterasu shot half the size of a damn fortress
> 
> But then again im sure an *unsuspecting, unprepared base Jman* will have his fire scroll written by then right


Ofcourse Itachi will start with MS as usual

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Zero890 (Jan 6, 2018)

Yomi Numa GG, Jiraiya wins.


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## Bookworm (Jan 6, 2018)

Professor83 said:


> Ofcourse Itachi will start with MS as usual



Itachi was ready to use MS on Kisame, iimmediately, as soon as Kisame put his sword next to Itachi's head. Jiraiya is supposedly stronger than Kisame.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2018)

Professor83 said:


> Ofcourse Itachi will start with MS as usual


I never said he was gonna open with MS 

It doesnt matter when he uses it

MS activation and amaterasu speed are >>>> Jmans cursive writing  

Itachi can fall back on MS in the event hes pushed in LITERALLY the blink of an eye

Jman also has no knowledge on the technique, and starts in base

Really dont see an argument here

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 6, 2018)

Jiraiya wins with high difficulty, he can counter everything in Itachi's arsenal. On top of the fact that Itachi admitted inferiority, and from a narrative standpoint it makes more sense for Jiraiya to be stronger anyway.


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## Bookworm (Jan 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya wins with high difficulty, he can counter everything in Itachi's arsenal. On top of the fact that Itachi admitted inferiority, and from a narrative standpoint it makes more sense for Jiraiya to be stronger anyway.


 How does base Jiraya counter Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero890 (Jan 6, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I never said he was gonna open with MS
> 
> It doesnt matter when he uses it
> 
> ...



Jiraiya takes off his clothes GG

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi was ready to use MS on Kisame, iimmediately, as soon as Kisame put his sword next to Itachi's head. Jiraiya is supposedly stronger than Kisame.



That scene was so badass 

"Be careful....of me"
*Activates MS* "The same goes for you"

Get chills every time

Would've loved to watch those two go at it, even in the anime. Two brief CQC clashes and one Ninjutsu clash doesn't do it for me

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Serene Grace (Jan 6, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Hes got more than enough stamina for an amaterasu shot half the size of a damn fortress


He spread the Amaterasu, the Amaterasu wasn't Forrest sized, the fuck 



WorldsStrongest said:


> But then again im sure an *unsuspecting, unprepared base Jman* will have his fire scroll written by then right


> Unsuspected, has seen the jutsu before and had it sealed away. Though I guess we just assume Jiraiya just forgot about flames that are potent enough to burn through fire proof toad walls, not to mention said flames was from a member of a group he was keeping tabs on

R.I.P common sense

I mean Amaterasu has pretty shitty feats, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if Jiraiya could deal it while it was burning on him

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya wins with high difficulty, he can counter everything in Itachi's arsenal. On top of the fact that Itachi admitted inferiority, and from a narrative standpoint it makes more sense for Jiraiya to be stronger anyway.



Jman states he is hot garbage at genjutsu
His student of 3 years received training from him to fight genjutsu and couldnt bust Finger Genjutsu on his own...Further backing the claim
Itachis genjutsu is kind of a big deal
Jmans go to are summons...Which are negged by genjutsu and then do itachis bidding...Bad news for Jman
Jmans summons are also negged by amaterasu OR totsuka...Not that itachi needs to go that far at all
Jmans only counter to amaterasu is a fire scroll...That he needs to MANUALLY WRITE in the heat of battle against the tech that damn near tagged V2 A with knowledge on teh technique 
Yet somehow Jman counters Itachi more than vice versa 

Never a dull moment

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> He spread the Amaterasu, the Amaterasu wasn't Forrest sized, the fuck.


Semantics


The fuck is the difference relative to Jman here grace 

He just spreads a forest sized amaterasu as opposed to making a giant fireball...Doesnt change the fact Jmans still in the middle of it 

Like...Serious wit dis 


Serene Grace said:


> > Unsuspected, has seen the jutsu before and had it sealed away


He doesnt know what the fuck itachi did to do it unless youd care to argue he can see around corners 

He just saw the after effects of a technique, not teh technique in action, or its build up, or execution,

Like my man...Be serious now

And further...He didnt "just" seal it

He had to write the scroll first...Something tells me thats not easy with itachi comin for your ass


Serene Grace said:


> Though I guess we just assume Jiraiya just forgot about flames that are potent enough to burn through fire proof toad walls, not to mention said flames was from a member of a group he was keeping tabs on


I guess i just assume you didnt read the OP and realize that they dont have manga knowledge

I also guess i assume Jman can see around corners after all and knows the start up and execution of the technique hes never seen before 


Serene Grace said:


> R.I.P common sense


R.I.P reading the context of a thread first


Serene Grace said:


> I mean Amaterasu has pretty shitty feats


No amaterasu has low end feats

But so does literally everything

If i looked solely at low end feats and completely disregarded any and all high end or the more consistent feats or context about certain jutsu, i imagine id view them as pretty shit myself

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Jiraiya takes off his clothes GG


And goes where when hes smack in the middle of this


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## Maverick04 (Jan 6, 2018)

26990427904390459..This is how many times the following post has been done..No matter what you say here, there'll be people who disagree with you regardless..I think Itachi would win this one high diff coz *insert a tldr explanation*

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2018)

Yall can quote me or neg me or whatever tf ya wanna do but this is gonna be my last post in this thread

But tbh theres no sensible argument here with Jman starting in Base 

If Jman started in SM, yes this is one helluva a fight no question about that and there are quite a few scenarios i can see Jman winning in

But Base Jman vs an itachi who at any point can decide hes done being cute and light Jman up with amaterasu the size of a castle?

A base Jman who cant stall for time in any way shape or form as his summons are negged and immediately come to itachis side?

A base Jman who needs to fight MS itachi without his hands or a single summon for backup if he wants to fight at anywhere near his full power?

Base Jman up against one of the best clone users in the verse who can bunshin WHILE UNDER FIRE so fast 3T sasuke cant even see a hand sign?

A base Jman who also has no counter to genjutsu and is by his own admission garbage at it?

And finally a Jman with no knowledge?

Naw fam

Sorry

Cant square that circle

Start Jman in SM and its a fight tho

Low key...Call me up when Jman has a solid counter to finger genjutsu

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Jan 6, 2018)

Trolling said:


> How does base Jiraya counter Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu?



Jiraiya can fight without eye contact better the Kabuto so Genjutsu don’t matter. Jiraiya's hair easily counters Ama or Jiraiya can easily dodge it or he can use a smoke screen before Ama gets off or he can flat himself to avoid it, etc. Jiraiya can counter everything

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Bookworm (Jan 6, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Jiraiya can fight without eye contact better the Kabuto so Genjutsu don’t matter. Jiraiya's hair easily counters Ama or Jiraiya can easily dodge it or he can use a smoke screen before Ama gets off or he can flat himself to avoid it, etc. Jiraiya can counter everything



I never seen anything that indicates base Jiraiya can fight without eye contact, better than Kabuto. Even if he can, we saw how that worked out for Kakashi, in his second fight with Itachi. Jiraiya has no knowledge on Amaterasu, so it's likely that it would hit him in the face and cover his whole body. The hair on his head wouldn't get rid that, if it grows or not.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Zero890 (Jan 6, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And goes where when hes smack in the middle of this



That Amaterasu spread through the forest.

Gamayu Endan vs Amaterasu, can Itachi survive?


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## Zero890 (Jan 6, 2018)

Can Itachi survive Yomi Numa or Yatai Kuzushi?


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## Maverick04 (Jan 6, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Jmans only counter to amaterasu is a fire scroll...That he needs to MANUALLY WRITE in the heat of battle against the tech that damn near tagged V2 A with knowledge on teh technique


Oh the Amaterasu sealing technique lol..Which required like forever to seal a small amount of flame, yet somehow Jiraiya seals all the flames on and around him

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 6, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Semantics
> 
> 
> The fuck is the difference relative to Jman here grace


No its not semantics, you said he could  use an Amaterasu on that scale which he obviously can't 



WorldsStrongest said:


> He just spreads a forest sized amaterasu as opposed to making a giant fireball.


And what is he gonna spread that shit on, water? That was by virtue of the location, when fire goes on tress what does it do? Burn..right? He doesn't have said virtue, it's a water based location which actually benefits Jiraiya more as can use his stealth related toad based jutsu's.



WorldsStrongest said:


> He doesnt know what the fuck itachi did to do it unless youd care to argue he can see around corners
> 
> He just saw the after effects of a technique, not teh technique in action, or its build up, or execution,


He doesn't need to see shit r him to know about the flames though, same way fuckin Cee knew about the flames without seeing it. Jiraiya actually encounters the flames, Jiraiya has it sealed away, all Jiraiya has to do is research on the flames, Cee and the cloud ninja were able to get info on the flames, yet Jiraiya of all people can't 



WorldsStrongest said:


> And further...He didnt "just" seal it
> 
> He had to write the


He has multiple ways of distracting Itachi being on of which KG's, while then occupy Itachi he then seals the shit off him. Jiraiya's extremely resilient he isn't no bitch, especially against something as inconsistent as Amaterasu. The man was able to  with , and was  , , mind you that , so it would take a _*lot*_ to put this man down



WorldsStrongest said:


> I guess i just assume you didnt read the OP and realize that they dont have manga knowledge
> 
> I also guess i assume Jman can see around corners after all and knows the start up and execution of the technique hes never seen before


same way you just "assumed" they were in a forest which would allow Itachi to spread his shit, or how you forgot water based surfaces are Jiraiya's playing field 

In this location Jiraiya can utilize Kekkai:  or Gamagakure no Jutsu()-(), one mistake or distraction and Jiraiya's gonezo underwater ready to prep SM. Jiraiya is master in stealth, if you give him location where he can use his tricks like this then it's a fight.


WorldsStrongest said:


> No amaterasu has low end feats
> 
> But so does literally everything
> 
> If i looked solely at low end feats and completely disregarded any and all high end or the more consistent feats or context about certain jutsu, i imagine id view them as pretty shit myself


It has a lot of "low" end feats of you ask me. At this point calling every feat a "low" end one seems like damage control to compensate for it's shittyness

Reactions: Like 2


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## Maverick04 (Jan 6, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Can Itachi survive Yomi Numa or Yatai Kuzushi?


Sharingan precog..And Itachi's hand seals are faster..Jiraiya would be hit before he tries his ninjutsu..Moreover Sharingan genjutsu..You saw what happened to Orochimaru right?? Its not like Jiraiya who has similar amount of experience, is somehow immune to it

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Maverick04 (Jan 6, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Would've loved to watch those two go at it, even in the anime. Two brief CQC clashes and one Ninjutsu clash doesn't do it for me


I think that was from a video game

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero890 (Jan 6, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Sharingan precog..And Itachi's hand seals are faster..Jiraiya would be hit before he tries his ninjutsu..Moreover Sharingan genjutsu..You saw what happened to Orochimaru right?? Its not like Jiraiya who has similar amount of experience, is somehow immune to it



I do not think the Sharingan can predict those Jutsus. Jiraiya also does not need hand seals to make Yomi Numa.


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## Maverick04 (Jan 6, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> I do not think the Sharingan can predict those Jutsus. Jiraiya also does not need hand seals to make Yomi Numa.


He does though..In the manga he did..It requires Boar and tiger hand sign..You know what doesn't require hand signs? Genjutsu..Even Sasuke was able to use a genjutsu on deidara while getting out of C4 range..And Ao once stated that Itachi can control multiple people from outside his sensory unit's range


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> I think that was from a video game



Was still a cool scene, just not enough. But Kisame seemed to be genuinely concerned about Itachi and didn't want him exhausting himself with MS techs.

Love how in their very first encounter Itachi resorts to MS immediately (their first encounter, canon) but in the NBD 3T Itachi curbstomps Kisame

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blu-ray (Jan 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> On top of the fact that Itachi admitted inferiority,


Real talk, this literally never happened and there's no excuse for perpetuating this when VIZ scans have been on the interwebs for anyone to see from early 2016.

Itachi said if they fought 1vs1,  At no point does Itachi ever say that Jiraiya is stronger than himself or that Jiraiya would emerge the victor in a clash. The absolute most anyone can take from that is that Itachi views Jiraiya as his equal. Nothing more, nothing less.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3


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## Gohara (Jan 7, 2018)

Itachi wins in my opinion as he bests Orochibuto who should be superior to Jiraiya.


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## Charmed (Jan 7, 2018)

Itachi wins Mid to High Diff, just like Sasori *<3*, I don't think Jiraiya will have time to enter SM, he'll be too busy dealing with Amaterasu in base and Genjutsu, which are jutsu that Itachi uses most of the time at the beginning of a fight.
Also Itachi is better at CQC thanks to his Sharingan.
Summons are not a problem though, they go down with Amy or Totsuka or Genjutsu.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> How does base Jiraya counter Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu?


Since when does Itachi start with that? And beating base Jiraiya with either of those doesn't mean Itachi is stronger, considering SM Jiraiya is the only version I believe is stronger.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Jman states he is hot garbage at genjutsu


Which doesn't mean a lot here.


> His student of 3 years received training from him to fight genjutsu and couldnt bust Finger Genjutsu on his own...Further backing the claim


Jiraiya has superior chakra control than that version of Naruto, and he is a mid to long range fighter so the chance of him looking at Itachi's finger is unlikely.


> Itachis genjutsu is kind of a big deal


Ephemeral has never been treated as a big deal against any opponent Itachi has fought excluding base Naruto.


> Jmans go to are summons...Which are negged by genjutsu and then do itachis bidding...Bad news for Jman


Summons are easily freed via the partner method that you forgot existed for whatever reason.


> Jmans summons are also negged by amaterasu OR totsuka...Not that itachi needs to go that far at all


Saying that Itachi doesn't need to resort to the MS to take Jiraiya down is just pure fanboyism that should not be taken seriously. Any usage of the MS costs Itachi a great deal of chakra, his eyesight, and shortens his lifespan so needing to use it to get rid of the summons is already putting Itachi in a bad spot.


> Jmans only counter to amaterasu is a fire scroll...That he needs to MANUALLY WRITE in the heat of battle against the tech that damn near tagged V2 A with knowledge on teh technique


No it is not. If he is in SM he can sense it ahead of time and block with Wild Lion's Mane, and then detach his hair with Hair Needle Senbon and be done. That, or block it with a random ninjutsu and dispel it so the flames disperse like they did when Itachi used it against Sasuke.


> Yet somehow Jman counters Itachi more than vice versa
> 
> Never a dull moment



Itachi's LoS is obscured by Shima's Dust Cloud that blocked Pain's LoS, preventing him from seeing and using any Genjutsu: Sharingan. As well as pretty much Itachi's whole arsenal since everything he does is reliant on his eyes and being able to see his opponent. This wouldn't affect Jiraiya because he can sense, and even if you want to say he cannot sense based off of whatever poor argument you come up with, Fukasaku and Shima can, so they know where Itachi is while he has no idea where they are.
Amaterasu is countered by Jiraiya sensing danger and a large chakra buildup ahead of time, so he blocks with Wild Lion's Mane. Also given it's horrendous portrayal, there's no way the likes of Jiraiya would be one-shot by it.
Tsukuyomi will never happen since Jiraiya is a mid-to-long range fighter who has no need to make eye contact as a SM user since he can rely on sensing. Itachi would have to get up close and personal, which he has no way of doing without getting bombarded by some ninjutsu in the process.
Susanoo is immediately shut down with Frog Call (and yes, Frog Call, not "Frog Song" or Toad Confrontation Chant) pinned down with Food Cart Destroyer momentarily, or sunk with a senjutsu-enhanced Swamp of the Underworld.
Talk about dull moments.



Blu-ray said:


> Real talk, this literally never happened and there's no excuse for perpetuating this when VIZ scans have been on the interwebs for anyone to see from early 2016.
> 
> Itachi said if they fought 1vs1,  At no point does Itachi ever say that Jiraiya is stronger than himself or that Jiraiya would emerge the victor in a clash. The absolute most anyone can take from that is that Itachi views Jiraiya as his equal. Nothing more, nothing less.


Honestly, I wasn't referring to the Viz translation when I said that, I was referring to a translation done by an experienced translator which is more accurate than the Viz imo.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 3 | Disagree 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 7, 2018)

"some rando who lives in his mothers basement has a translation that better suits my argument...So screw the official translations"

Bruh

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya wins with high difficulty, he can counter everything in Itachi's arsenal. On top of the fact that Itachi admitted inferiority, and from a narrative standpoint it makes more sense for Jiraiya to be stronger anyway.



Jiraiya doesn't have a natural counter to everything Itachi has. And no, he's not going to have the time to be taking out a scroll and touching it every time Amaterasu is used. 

Itachi never admitted inferiority. He said he would lose or they would kill each other. Then Kisame questions Itachi's need to flee from Jiraiya.


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## Maverick04 (Jan 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi never admitted inferiority. He said he would lose or they would kill each other. Then Kisame questions Itachi's need to flee from Jiraiya.


Donno why people even bring up such primitive statements..Kisame clearly starts up that conversation and Itachi being a spy and all wouldn't say that he can totally murk Jiraiya..Kisame states that even Uchihas and seven Swordsmen pale in comparison in front of The Sannins, when Itachi clearly fucked up another sannin before

So if we go by these statements, then according to Kisame even Uchihas like Madara and Obito are also inferior to The Sannins

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Donno why people even bring up such primitive statements..Kisame clearly starts up that conversation and Itachi being a spy and all wouldn't say that he can totally murk Jiraiya..Kisame states that even Uchihas and seven Swordsmen pale in comparison in front of The Sannins, when Itachi clearly fucked up another sannin before
> 
> So if we go by these statements, then according to Kisame even Uchihas like Madara and Obito are also inferior to The Sannins



Though, Obito like Nagato didn't really have a global reputation till the war. Madara himself had a reputation independent of the Uchiha. 

If you wanna go by C, Itachi himself also had a reputation independent of the Uchiha clan seeing as C seemed to know about his MS abilities, namely Amaterasu and Itachi's skill with it.

Kisame didn't seem to get Itachi's actions as he believed, going by what he saw, Itachi didn't really need to flee. Makes sense when he saw Itachi take out Kakashi in an instant with just eye contact.

Jiraiya could've been taken out by Tsukuyomi too. Let's go by info we have that Kisame didn't:
- Itachi can use the MS about 5 times before losing all his chakra
- He used a KB jutsu, so let's see he could use it about 2 times when he faced Kakashi
- Let's say 3 times by the time he went to the hotel; considering he and Kisame had some time to rest. 
- He used it once on Sasuke
- So with Jiraiya, he could have used Tsukuyomi at least 1 more time then made his way with Naruto.

Amaterasu wouldn't need to be used if he had just used Tsukuyomi on Jiraiya. 

Of course, if Jiraiya has intel, you could use @Turrin's favourite argument and say Jiraiya could keep his eyes shut and use the detection barrier.  Reputation knowledge allows this since Itachi is known for being a MS user and much to the chagrin of Itachi fans, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are known as they are MS jutsu not unique jutsu to Itachi. 

Put it this way, I think with the circumstances set by the OP, Jiraiya's going to need to work a lot harder than Itachi to score a victory.


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## MSAL (Jan 7, 2018)

Are we saying then that the op is in Itachi's favour, guys?


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya doesn't have a natural counter to everything Itachi has. And no, he's not going to have the time to be taking out a scroll and touching it every time Amaterasu is used.


 That's why he can rely on Wild Lion's Mane, Needle Jizo, or Hair Needle Senbon.



> Itachi never admitted inferiority. He said he would lose or they would kill each other. Then Kisame questions Itachi's need to flee from Jiraiya.





Isaiah13000 said:


> ShounenSuki's Translation:
> 
> Spoiler:
> Kisame:
> ...


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## Blu-ray (Jan 7, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> But VIZ has mistranslated countless technique names as well as some character's names for a fact. I'd rather listen to those who directly translate from the raws than Viz that (seemingly almost purposely) changes the name of things all the time. Also, look above at what I said to WorldsStrongest.


They have mistakes sure, but they're infrequent. Most of the technique names are just localized too, not mistranslated. Flame Control isn't meant to be a direct translation of Kagutsuchi for instance.

As for Itachi's quote above,


> やり合えは二人共殺されるか良くて相打ちというところ


is something to the effect of, _"we might both be killed." _The confusion probably stems from mistaking *"we"* as being Itachi and Kisame, rather than Itachi and Jiraiya.

Context is important here. It's preceded by Kisame saying that even if Itachi can take him, he (Kisame) probably cannot. Itachi follows up by saying the line in contention. They were talking about their chances against him individually. Not to mention Kisame later questioned Itachi as to why he of all people had flee. Not something he'd ask if Jiraiya would absolutely beat Itachi.

ShonenSuki is before my time (NF translators I'm most familiar with is TakL in KL and Mezzo in the FC) but it's safe to assume even he's not perfect,and it's not like our resident translators haven't been wrong before.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi never admitted inferiority. *He said he would lose *or they would kill each other.


He also never said the bolded.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That's why he can rely on Wild Lion's Mane, Needle Jizo, or Hair Needle Senbon.



The first 2 jutsu give a link to Jiraiya's body. He'll be mapping out where Itachi can incinerate him. How is the needle senbon jutsu going to counter Amaterasu? If timed right, it can break Itachi's focus, but really how is he going to counter Amaterasu? He'll need SM to make use of it tactically by utilising 3 Senjutsu sensory abilities. 

Base mode though? That counter isn't going to be happening.



Blu-ray said:


> He also never said the bolded.



I went by Viz in this instances. Though the translation posted ITT implies Kisame and Itachi together may collectively be killed with Jiraiya.


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## Hazuki (Jan 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kisame didn't seem to get Itachi's actions as he believed, going by what he saw, Itachi didn't really need to flee. Makes sense when he saw Itachi take out Kakashi in an instant with just eye contact.
> 
> Jiraiya could've been taken out by Tsukuyomi too. Let's go by info we have that Kisame didn't:
> - Itachi can use the MS about 5 times before losing all his chakra
> ...



I don't think so
that's same kakashi who experimented tsukuyomi and knew about amaterasu said in part 2 that the reason itachi and kisame never try to capture naruto was because of jiraiya

kakashi one of the most intelligent ninja in narutoverse and knowledge about amaterasu and tsukiyumi think that itachi and kisame couldn't capture naruto because of their fear for jiraiya

meanin in his opinion that tsukiyomi wouldn't work that easely on jiraiya
and at that time , kakashi didn't even know jiraiya full power , because after that he was amazed that jiraiya sm fought all the 6 pain with just one arm and no aknoledge

Reactions: Like 1


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## Maverick04 (Jan 7, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> I don't think so
> that's same kakashi who experimented tsukuyomi and knew about amaterasu said in part 2 that the reason itachi and kisame never try to capture naruto was because of jiraiya
> 
> kakashi one of the most intelligent ninja in narutoverse and knowledge about amaterasu and tsukiyumi think that itachi and kisame couldn't capture naruto because of their fear for jiraiya
> ...


Thats a lot of assumptions you made there


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## Hazuki (Jan 7, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Thats a lot of assumptions you made there



Maybe but the fact is that  we also know that itachi and kisame didn't want to fight jiraiya because it would be too dangerous
if tsukiyomi would work so easely against jiraiya
itachi , kisame and kakashi would have never praised him like that

we also know itachi fighting style is about the weak point ( every jutsu has a weak point )
all he said about jiraiya was that his weak point is woman , that's why he try to use it on him
why itachi would have use genjutsu on a woman ( jiraiya weak point ) if he could have use his genjutsu on jiraiya ?

few hours after itachi and kisame praised jiraiya as a opponent too dangerous , few hours later they almost be killed if it wasn't for amaterasu

also jiraiya part 2 who knew how strong are itachi and kisame, he was still confident to fight their big boss pain who is supposed  as their leader , to be much much stronger ( and he could have even won the fight if it was with aknoledge )

itachi is strong but there is just too much praised , fear and logic proof to show that itachi would have never use tsukiyum  and beat  jiraiya as easely as some people think


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## Sasaukage (Jan 7, 2018)

One-look man Itachi win 
Itachi has many chance to use tsukuyomi on jiraiya


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## Hazuki (Jan 7, 2018)

Sasaukage said:


> One-look man Itachi win
> Itachi has many chance to use tsukuyomi on jiraiya



jiraiya knew itachi and his sharingan
do you think that a ninja as experimented as jiraiya would look at itachi without precautious ?
jiraiya knew the danger , he still look at itachi because he knew he could handdle it
he is one of the most versatil ninja in narutoverse
i'm not talking about using genjutsu because we all know that jiraiya is bad at genjutsu
but even in his base form  he can defend against it not doubt about it

itachi choose to use genjutsu on a woman instead of the sannin because he knew jiraiya could handdle it
jiraiya choose to look at itachi because he knew he could handdle it 

that's logic


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## Maverick04 (Jan 7, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> Maybe but the fact is that we also know that itachi and kisame didn't want to fight jiraiya because it would be too dangerous
> if tsukiyomi would work so easely against jiraiya
> itachi , kisame and kakashi would have never praised him like that


Itachi didn't wanna fight coz he's working for the leaf..He even clearly states to Asuma and Kurenai that he doesn't wanna fight them..But when push came to shove, he had to retaliate otherwise he would've blew away his cover..He couldve easily killed Kakashi if he wanted to and Kakashi also confirms it but is confused as to why he didn't..Even Kisame asks why they ran away instead of facing him, coz he was certain that Itachi wouldve handled the fight..Nothing suggests that Tsukuyomi wouldn't work on Jiraiya easily..For God's sake, that guy was looking straight into Itachi's eyes..If Itachi wanted to Jiraiya would've been easily caught under his Genjutsu and it would've been Orochimaru all over again..Kakashi praises Jiraiya because he compares his level yo Jiraiya's..But he also sees Itachi as a big threat as well. As for Kisame, well he didn't praise Jiraiya per say, he praised the title of Sannin.



Hazuki said:


> we also know itachi fighting style is about the weak point ( every jutsu has a weak point )
> all he said about jiraiya was that his weak point is woman , that's why he try to use it on him
> why itachi would have use genjutsu on a woman ( jiraiya weak point ) if he could have use his genjutsu on jiraiya ?


Back onto my previous point..Jiraiya is nothing special when it comes to genjutsu..He has the same level of skill as Orochimaru and same level of experience..If Itachi was really a bad guy then Jiraiya wouldve been under his Genjutsu the moment he looked into his eyes..But Itachi didn't want to fight him partly coz he's a pacifist and partly coz he's undercover.



Hazuki said:


> few hours after itachi and kisame praised jiraiya as a opponent too dangerous , few hours later they almost be killed if it wasn't for amaterasu


Kisame was the one who was scared for his life..Itachi wasn't phased by the toad mouth trap at all..Rather it was the perfect moment for him to escape the fight..Hell, the dude was busy talking trash to Sasuke while the toad mouth trap was on.



Hazuki said:


> also jiraiya part 2 who knew how strong are itachi and kisame, he was still confident to fight their big boss pain who is supposed as their leader , to be much much stronger ( and he could have even won the fight if it was with aknoledge )


Asuma was confident that he could beat Itachi and Kisame..Lol..And Sakura was confident that she could face Dual Rinnegan Madara head on



Hazuki said:


> itachi is strong but there is just too much praised , logic proof to show that itachi would have never use tsukiyumi on jiraiya as easely as some people think


If he wanted to, he wouldve..This is how I see it..Eye contact is easiest way to attack in Naruto


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## Maverick04 (Jan 7, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> jiraiya knew itachi and his sharingan
> do you think that a ninja as experimented as jiraiya would look at itachi without precautious ?


Orochimaru did..Deidara who trained his eye to counter Sharingan genjutsu was caught in Sasuke's genjutsu..Naruto who was trained by Jiraiya was caught in Itachi's genjutsu when he gave him Kotoamatsukami..Sasuke who trained and honed his skills in order to fight Itachi for three years was still caught under Tsukuyomi.



Hazuki said:


> jiraiya knew the danger , he still look at itachi because he knew he could handdle it
> he is one of the most versatil ninja in narutoverse


Nope..He looked straight into his eyes coz he was naive



Hazuki said:


> but even in his base form he can defend against it not doubt about it


No feat in the manga that supports that statement..Rather Jiraiya suggests that giving up is the only option if you face a Sharingan user


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> I don't think so
> that's same kakashi who experimented tsukuyomi and knew about amaterasu said in part 2 that the reason itachi and kisame never try to capture naruto was because of jiraiya



Kakashi didn't experiment with Tsukuyomi. Itachi and Kisame were looking to capture Naruto and Jiraiya didn't deter them. Kisame didn't even think Itachi needed to run and what we learnt about Itachi later backs this up. 



> kakashi one of the most intelligent ninja in narutoverse and knowledge about amaterasu and tsukiyumi think that itachi and kisame couldn't capture naruto because of their fear for jiraiya



Kakashi never thought this.



> meanin in his opinion that tsukiyomi wouldn't work that easely on jiraiya
> and at that time , kakashi didn't even know jiraiya full power , because after that he was amazed that jiraiya sm fought all the 6 pain with just one arm and no aknoledge



Incorrect.


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## Sasaukage (Jan 7, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> jiraiya knew itachi and his sharingan
> do you think that a ninja as experimented as jiraiya would look at itachi without precautious ?
> jiraiya knew the danger , he still look at itachi because he knew he could handdle it
> he is one of the most versatil ninja in narutoverse
> ...


only the uchiha clan can resist the Tsukuyomi 
you have to fight Itachi without looking to his eyes to win against him


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## Hazuki (Jan 7, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Itachi didn't wanna fight coz he's working for the leaf..He even clearly states to Asuma and Kurenai that he doesn't wanna fight them..But when push came to shove, he had to retaliate otherwise he would've blew away his cover..He couldve easily killed Kakashi if he wanted to and Kakashi also confirms it but is confused as to why he didn't..Even Kisame asks why they ran away instead of facing him, coz he was certain that Itachi wouldve handled the fight..Nothing suggests that Tsukuyomi wouldn't work on Jiraiya easily..For God's sake, that guy was looking straight into Itachi's eyes..If Itachi wanted to Jiraiya would've been easily caught under his Genjutsu and it would've been Orochimaru all over again..Kakashi praises Jiraiya because he compares his level yo Jiraiya's..But he also sees Itachi as a big threat as well. As for Kisame, well he didn't praise Jiraiya per say, he praised the title of Sannin.



itachi part 1 would have easely kill anyone who is against his mission
he try to kill kakashi if it wasn't for gai help
kisame ask why they ran away because he knew they had a chance to capture naruto while itachi fighting jiraiya and protecting naruto in the same time
*don't forget that jiraiya was protecting naruto , this is a BIG dissadvantage*



RahulPK04 said:


> I Back onto my previous point..Jiraiya is nothing special when it comes to genjutsu..He has the same level of skill as Orochimaru and same level of experience..If Itachi was really a bad guy then Jiraiya wouldve been under his Genjutsu the moment he looked into his eyes..But Itachi didn't want to fight him partly coz he's a pacifist and partly coz he's undercover.



orochimaru might have a big experience but he is super arrogant he always failed because of his arrogant
jiraiya isn't orochimaru
also jiraiya might be bad at genjutsu but that doesn't mean he can't defend himself
again jiraiya would have never look at itachi like that if he would be weak at defending himself against genjutsu





RahulPK04 said:


> Asuma was confident that he could beat Itachi and Kisame..Lol..And Sakura was confident that she could face Dual Rinnegan Madara head on



you can't compare asuma and jiraiya seriously
wait and minute :
itachi and kisame admit it would be trouble to fight jiraiya
few moment later jiraiya almost kill them and forced itachi to use amaterasu
do you really don't see the logic ??


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## Hazuki (Jan 7, 2018)

Sasaukage said:


> only the uchiha clan can resist the Tsukuyomi
> you have to fight Itachi without looking to his eyes to win against him



we have seen in the manga that only a sannin can defeat an other sannin
so that's also mean to you that no one can defeat a sannin if he isn't one of them ?

kakashi who was hit by tsukiyumi still believe that itachi and kisame never try to capture naruto because of jiraiya
you don't have to read between lines to understand that tsukiyumi won't work as easely as you think on jiraiya


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## Blu-ray (Jan 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I went by Viz in this instances


So did I, and he never said he'd loose.


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## Hazuki (Jan 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kakashi didn't experiment with Tsukuyomi. Itachi and Kisame were looking to capture Naruto and Jiraiya didn't deter them. Kisame didn't even think Itachi needed to run and what we learnt about Itachi later backs this up.
> 
> .



kakashi wasn't hit by tsukuyomi in part 1 ???
also jiraiya was protecting naruto a little kid genin you forgot ?
and finally
here the page where kakashi part 2 ( 3 years after he was hit by tsukyumi that's mean at that time kakashi knew about itachi power and his tsukiyumi and how strong it is because he was hit himself by that )
In his OPINION akatsuki never try to capture naruto because jiraiya was his body guard 

Yuuki Oojima


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## Sasaukage (Jan 7, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> we have seen in the manga that it isn't true
> kakashi who was hit by tsukiyumi still believe that itachi and kisame never try to capture naruto because of jiraiya
> you don't have to read between lines to understand that tsukiyumi won't work as easely as you think on jiraiya





Hazuki said:


> we have seen in the manga that it isn't true
> kakashi who was hit by tsukiyumi still believe that itachi and kisame never try to capture naruto because of jiraiya
> you don't have to read between lines to understand that tsukiyumi won't work as easely as you think on jiraiya


Why Tsukuyomi won't work agains't jiraiya ?!

we see itachi with just sharingan genjutsu able to beat orochimaru


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## Maverick04 (Jan 7, 2018)

Sasaukage said:


> Why Tsukuyomi won't work agains't jiraiya ?!
> 
> we see itachi with just sharingan genjutsu able to beat orochimaru


To be fair, Jiraiya here wasn't talking about being weak against Genjutsu .It was more like, he can't use Genjutsu or has no skill for it


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## Kisame (Jan 7, 2018)

This is what Jiraiya needs to win:

1. To start in SM: To begin, he *needs *SM to win (I'll get to that later). Unless the distance is 1 km and his first go to move is to retreat and prepare for it it will probably be very difficult to actually achieve. Heck, it was difficult against Animal path alone (where Jiraiya could use the tunnels to escape from plain sight).

Itachi and Jiraiya are both very adept at CQC, Itachi with his speed, clone feints and confusing Genjutsu and Jiraiya with his versatile ninjutsu arsenal. If Jiraiya's first move is to charge Itachi it is very unlikely that he will get the chance to change his mind and retreat for SM. Itachi might still need the MS to put down even base Jiraiya though.

If he attempts to retreat in base from the get go he gets hunt down and killed, he needs SM to hold off a charging MS-using Itachi.

Having your hands tied against someone like Itachi is a death sentence.

2. Knowledge of Amaterasu: Jiraiya only knows that the black flames burned through his toad stomach and that it is a powerful Jutsu that belongs to Itachi, but he does not know *how *it is cast which is a huge disadvantage. His method of sealing with the scroll is totally inapplicable in battle scenarios and he needs to know the instantaneous (or semi-instantaneous) nature of the Jutsu to attempt to block or dodge it or fight in a way where he can stay out of range and launch huge attacks at Itachi. But why will he do any of that when he doesn't know how Amaterasu works?

3. Counters to Tsukiyomi: It is safe to assume through power-scaling at least that this fight wouldn't end with 3 tomoe Sharingan genjutsu, but there is simply no guarantee that a Jiraiya that starts at base will prevent Itachi from being within Tsukiyomi range at *all times*. When/if Jiraiya is hit, he loses.

4. SM: This provides the firepower, Jutsu scale, physical attributes, and outside support that Jiraiya needs to not only defend but attack against the MS techniques. If he plays his cards right he can keep forcing Itachi to use the Amaterasu and Susano'o to protect himself from the onslaught of Senjutsu, which will simultaneously prevent Itachi from being anywhere near him to launch a Tsukiyomi. Itachi can't use the MS for long and will be outlasted as he'll use most of his strongest techniques to defend himself.

However Jiraiya still needs the knowledge that he lacks on the MS to even attempt this let alone succeed.

Itachi wins.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2018)

Trying to use a hypothetical like Itachi beating Jiraiya before he enters SM is null and void becasue Kishi would never write a fight that way based upon characterization , story , what we have seen they are both close in power , both possess powers of the Sage body and eyes with Sage Mode and MS , both have shown to be very adept with their base forms , but are very perceptive and completely operated outside the village for the sake of said village both sacrificed themselves and left the mission to save the world and be heroes to the MC’s , Itachi was weary of Jiraiya because of Sage Mode we see with Kabuto it could give him great difficulty and that’s when he wasn’t using a Edo body and was on the verge of blindness Itachi was a perfect MS user but Jiraiaya wasn’t a perfect Sage , Jiraiya was healthier more physical prowess Itachi was faster , with superior chakra control to me they serve as the perfect yin and yang just like Naruto and Sasuke to me they either draw or Jiraiya edges him out slightly now this changes if Edo perks are allowed or if Itachi is 100% healthy then I would give Itachi the slight edge

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 7, 2018)

Eliyua23 said:


> Trying to use a hypothetical like Itachi beating Jiraiya before he enters SM is null and void becasue Kishi would never write


Plot isnt an argument accepted round these parts 

Sorry

And in a BD scenario, its obscenely likely and possible that Jman goes down before he even gets a chance to use SM here

He blatantly cant stall for time like he did against Animal Path as his summons are worthless

And anyone who thinks hes got a chance in a head on fight *against itachi without summons or the use of his hands* should seriously stop posting 

Like i dont wanna be mean but really now

This wouldnt be such a hot debate for like a DECADE now if Base Jman w/o hands>>>MS itachi now would it?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Plot isnt an argument accepted round these parts
> 
> Sorry
> 
> ...



What is the objective to find out who is stronger within the context of the story or to see who would win if certain battle scenarios favor one character over the other , under that guise its almost left up to interpretation and you ignore the context of the story if you think a battle between Jiraiya and Itachi will come down to Jiraiya not being able to enter SM is just not a debate that is reasonable within the story ,  you have to ignore what we saw in that hallway , Jiraiaya looking right at Itachi and Itachi being weary of Jiraiya now if you wanna create these scenarios about who is stronge based upon these stipulations then have at it but using plot points would establish more continuity and give a more realistic definitive answer

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 7, 2018)

Eliyua23 said:


> What is the objective to find out who is stronger within the context of the story or to see who would win if certain battle scenarios favor one character over the other , under that guise its almost left up to interpretation and you ignore the context of the story if you think a battle between Jiraiya and Itachi will come down to Jiraiya not being able to enter SM is just not a debate that is reasonable within the story , you have to ignore what we saw in that hallway , Jiraiaya looking right at Itachi and Itachi being weary of Jiraiya now if you wanna create these scenarios about who is stronge based upon these stipulations then have at it but using plot points would establish more continuity and give a more realistic definitive answer


Again, all i see here is a plot based argument which straight up doesnt fly in any VS matchup debate

Doesnt work 

Portrayal is useful for determining who fits above who and why in the absence of more concrete evidence or as a means to further bolster a point, and thats the only story based argument that has a place in a debate like this

Plot gonna plot doesnt work


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> So did I, and he never said he'd loose.


 
You are right.


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## Mithos (Jan 7, 2018)

This fight could go either way. I think the manga has continually positioned Jiraiya and Itachi as equals who parallel each other as milestones for Naruto and Sasuke, respectively.

The Databooks gave them the same score (35.5). The _only_ two characters to receive such a score.
Itachi's statement back in Part 1, saying that they'd badly wound or kill each other if they were to fight.
They both died at the same point in the manga, and served as milestones for Naruto and Sasuke (Naruto achieving Sage Mode, and Sasuke gaining the MS).
I lean a little towards Jiraiya because I think Sage Mode Naruto was portrayed as slightly above MS Sasuke, and I believe Sage Mode has generally been portrayed as superior to the MS overall.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Again, all i see here is a plot based argument which straight up doesnt fly in any VS matchup debate
> 
> Doesnt work
> 
> ...



No because plot is what the author determines , feats a lot of times are subjective and leads to interpretation what is the biggest argument for Itachi and Jiraiya being close it’s not feats but it’s plot , Itachi saying he could lose die against Jiraiya without that plot point what do we have just opinions about feats , plot determines who is the strongest , feats are flimsy because they can change at a whim , Itachi vs Nagato/Kabuto could tell you that DBV giving Jiraiya Frog Katas can tell you that , potrayal is vital here because they have never fought and the only statement we have comparing them puts them as being near equals throwing in hypothetical scenarios just fits your agenda of which character you like better if you take out plot you cannnot get a definitive answer to this question not even close


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 7, 2018)

Itachi beat Oro multiple times, when Oro had the drop on him and when Itachi was near death. An Itachi also fought Sasuke and would have won if he didn't throw the fight. This Sasuke, with a small buff due to a barely usable Mangekyou(he didn't know how to use it) stormed the Kage summit and held his own against 2 kage that are arguably the same strength as a sannin.

Not to mention Itachi was swapping hands with KCM Naruto while the 3 tailed kid Naruto fked up Jiraiya

And how is Jiraiya going to deal with Amaterasu or Tsukyomi?


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 7, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> They have mistakes sure, but they're infrequent. Most of the technique names are just localized too, not mistranslated. Flame Control isn't meant to be a direct translation of Kagutsuchi for instance.


 I concede. 



> As for Itachi's quote above,
> 
> is something to the effect of, _"we might both be killed." _The confusion probably stems from mistaking *"we"* as being Itachi and Kisame, rather than Itachi and Jiraiya.
> 
> Context is important here. It's preceded by Kisame saying that even if Itachi can take him, he (Kisame) probably cannot. Itachi follows up by saying the line in contention. They were talking about their chances against him individually. Not to mention Kisame later questioned Itachi as to why he of all people had flee. Not something he'd ask if Jiraiya would absolutely beat Itachi.


 Itachi says "if we fought him" in SS's translation. I don't see how that can be taken as meaning Jiraiya and Itachi, it could only possibly mean Itachi and Kisame. The only way it wouldn't is if that was never said in the first place. 



> ShonenSuki is before my time (NF translators I'm most familiar with is TakL in KL and Mezzo in the FC) but it's safe to assume even he's not perfect,and it's not like our resident translators haven't been wrong before.


This is true, it is possible that the traslation isn't perfect. But I think it's more likely for it to be better than the Viz since the resident translators here seem to translate it literally and don't localize anything.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The first 2 jutsu give a link to Jiraiya's body. He'll be mapping out where Itachi can incinerate him. How is the needle senbon jutsu going to counter Amaterasu? If timed right, it can break Itachi's focus, but really how is he going to counter Amaterasu? He'll need SM to make use of it tactically by utilising 3 Senjutsu sensory abilities.
> 
> Base mode though? That counter isn't going to be happening.


 My main point was he can use that to shed his hair if he is hit with it. He may not be able to use it fast enough in base though, though it's possible that Itachi could hit a Shadow Clone, or not even be capable of aiming it at Jiraiya properly since he'd be getting attacked by ninjutsu.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 7, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> the 3 tailed kid Naruto fked up Jiraiya


It was the 4 tails, not the three tails


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## Blu-ray (Jan 7, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi says "if we fought him" in SS's translation. I don't see how that can be taken as meaning Jiraiya and Itachi, it could only possibly mean Itachi and Kisame. The only way it wouldn't is if that was never said in the first place.


The actual raw isn't that precise though. _"If we fought"_ and_ "If I fought him"_ is saying the exact same thing using different words but the context remains clear. _"If we fought him" _is a subtle change in wording yet dramatically changes the meaning and is most likely where the confusion stems from. 

Still, you could toss the line into freaking Google Translate and it gives the same context as VIZ despite how imperfect it is. That and Kisame's own implications makes it clear which line is more likely to be correct.


> This is true, it is possible that the traslation isn't perfect. But I think it's more likely for it to be better than the Viz since the resident translators here seem to translate it literally and don't localize anything.


Except any translator will tell you that going for a literal Japanese->English  translation is simply not possible in most cases because it's a language heavy on nuance. Not even TakL did that and he's from Japan. What's important is to convey meaning, not words.

Besides, calling the techniques something else doesn't mean they take liberties with the actual narrative and dialogue.


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## Bonly (Jan 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> I never seen anything that indicates base Jiraiya can fight without eye contact, better than Kabuto.



Jiraiya has Sage Mode which means his Sage Mode sensing is gonna kick in that lets him fight better then Sage Kabuto.



> Even if he can, we saw how that worked out for Kakashi, in his second fight with Itachi.



Kakashi isn't a Sage so it doesn't matter how he did. Go look at an actual Sage aka Kabuto to see how good he can fight without eye sight



> Jiraiya has no knowledge on Amaterasu, so it's likely that it would hit him in the face and cover his whole body. The hair on his head wouldn't get rid that, if it grows or not.



Jiraiya seen the flames back in part one, there's no way Jiraiya of all people wouldn't look more into it and get full knowledge on Ama. Jiraiya has a jutsu which shoots his hair in the form of needles which he did against Pain so if his hair is on fire then Jiraiya won't feel any pain whatsoever and he'll just get rid of it by shoot his hair back at Itachi.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Bookworm (Jan 7, 2018)

@Bonly so all this is assuming Jiraiya gets to SM? How does Base Jiraiya beat MS Itachi?


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## Bonly (Jan 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> @Bonly so all this is assuming Jiraiya gets to SM? How does Base Jiraiya beat MS Itachi?



Is Jiraiya restricted to Base in this thread?


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## Bookworm (Jan 7, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Is Jiraiya restricted to Base in this thread?


 How will Jiraiya get into SM?


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## Bonly (Jan 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> How will Jiraiya get into SM?



With the help of clones for feinting and hiding in the environment. Itachi never uses his MS at the start so Jiraiya can safely get into Sage Mode to win


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## Bookworm (Jan 7, 2018)

Bonly said:


> With the help of clones for feinting and hiding in the environment. Itachi never uses his MS at the start so Jiraiya can safely get into Sage Mode to win


 that's not true, he used MS at the start vs Kabuto and vs Kisame. A few clones won't stop Itachi.


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## Bonly (Jan 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> that's not true, he used MS at the start vs Kabuto and vs Kisame.



Itachi never fought Kisame. Let me rephrase it, Itachi has never started off with the MS offensively.


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## Bookworm (Jan 7, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Itachi never fought Kisame. Let me rephrase it, Itachi has never started off with the MS offensively.


 A few clones won't stop Itachi, besides that he  has sharingan genjutsu and finger genjutsu. When fought Nagato he started with MS's Amaterasu.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 7, 2018)

@Trolling I'm pretty sure Bonlys joking


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## Bookworm (Jan 7, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> @Trolling I'm pretty sure Bonlys joking



I thought he was serious

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bonly (Jan 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> I thought he was serious



Don't listen to him, I'm as serious as my fellow Jiraiya fans on this topic, I'm even using the exact same arguments as them

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 7, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> @Trolling I'm pretty sure Bonlys trolling


Ftfy
But that won't make sense
.  @Trolling is still trolling and bonly is still bonly
[/QUOTE]

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Azula (Jan 8, 2018)

Base JIraiya was the one that put both Itachi & Kisame on the defense, in their fight it will be Itachi who would be on the defensive having to rely on MS to fend off Jiraiya's techniques. Base-SM doesn't matter much in the long run. 

And genjutsu is moot. Jiraiya is the one to introduce the counter genjutsu measures, recognize and dispel genjutsu. He is not falling for genjutsu. It is very much possible to fight without falling for sharingan genjutsu (ex- Oonoki)

 Itachi would have better luck using genjutsu on small-medium summons that he uses. And even that is not of much use as Jiraiya will be close enough to tap them out of it.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Kisame (Jan 8, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Base JIraiya was the one that put both Itachi & Kisame on the defense, in their fight it will be Itachi who would be on the defensive having to rely on MS to fend off Jiraiya's techniques. Base-SM doesn't matter much.


All Itachi cared about was Tsukiyoming Sasuke to fuel him with hate against him for the future, once he did that he burst through Jiraiya's technique that supposedly "put him on the defensive" and left. Kisame even said Itachi *specifically* didn't need to retreat.

Here Itachi is talking to Sasuke about hatred and weakness *while the toad stomach is active*, it's hard to believe Itachi was paying that much attention to this Jutsu that "put them on the defensive".



> And genjutsu is moot. Jiraiya is the one to introduce the counter genjutsu measures, recognize and dispel genjutsu. He is not falling for genjutsu


That's the author's way of telling us how genjutsu works, it was not an implication that Jiraiya renders Itachi's Genjutsu moot.

Every single instance where Itachi was involved in a fight, his genjutsu played a huge role in the fight. Heck, there are characters who exhibited more *specific* knowledge about Itachi's sharingan genjutsu than Jiraiya when fighting him (like Kakashi and Chiyo) and still struggled against him. To suggest it's somehow useless against Jiraiya *just* because he was chosen as the one to introduce to us how to counter it is absurd.

Not to say Sharingan genjutsu will end the fight, but it will definitely play a role, when has it not?


> Itachi would have better luck using genjutsu on small-medium summons that he uses. And even that is not of much use as Jiraiya will be close to tap them out of it.


Jiraiya doesn't wanna get too close to Itachi, especially in base.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Azula (Jan 8, 2018)

Shark said:


> All Itachi cared about was Tsukiyoming Sasuke to fuel him with hate against him for the future, once he did that he burst through Jiraiya's technique that supposedly "put him on the defensive" and left.



Using amaterasu is a huge cost to him, while it's nothing for Jiraiya to pull summon after summon. He was on the defensive with the walls closing on him, had the fight continued he would gradually be in a poor position.

Jiraiya let the Itachi vs Sasuke fight go on because of Sasuke's history and will to fight. He was the one letting the fight go on.



Shark said:


> Kisame even said  didn't need to retreat.



Jiraiya is >> Kisame
Itachi is > Kisame

Jiraiya vs Kisame is a stomp hence Kisame running with his tail beneath his legs, Jiraiya vs Itachi *can* be a *fight* (however Itachi won't be the winner). That's what the line means.



Shark said:


> That's the author's way of telling us how genjutsu works, it was not an implication that Jiraiya renders Itachi's Genjutsu moot.



If Jiraiya has been shown to understand everything behind genjutsu related battles then it's an indication that he of all people will not be vulnerable to it. That's what the author wants you to know. 



Shark said:


> Every single instance where Itachi was involved in a fight, his genjutsu played a huge role in the fight.



His genjutsu failed against Kakashi's clone. His visual genjutsu was no where to be seen when fighting nagato and kabuto. Genjutsu in gerenal has failed more times it has succeeded.



Shark said:


> Heck, there are characters who exhibited more *specific* knowledge about Itachi's sharingan genjutsu than Jiraiya when fighting him (like Kakashi and Chiyo) and still struggled against him.



Chiyo fell for genjutsu? Kakashi fell for genjutsu? No he trolled it with a simple clone. Sakura was the one complaining about how hard it is and she is fodder at the point.

Chiyo and kakashi themselves are nowehere near Jiraiya's level. But they did not get caught because they had knowledge and skills to get around it.





Shark said:


> Not to say Sharingan genjutsu will end the fight, but it will definitely play a role, when has it not?



I already said he can succeed with catching small-medium summons that Jiraiya uses, but catching Jiraiya himself is out of his reach.

One particular scenario can be Itachi fending off a summon attacking similar to here.



But again in the case of boss summons Jiraiya will be standing on top of it and will release the genjutsu with a tap.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Kisame (Jan 8, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Using amaterasu is a huge cost to him, while it's nothing for Jiraiya to pull summon after summon. He was on the defensive with the walls closing on him, had the fight continued he would gradually be in a poor position.


There was *no fight* to be "continued" in the first place, Itachi did not want to fight Jiraiya otherwise he would have Amaterasu'd him instead or attempted to genjutsu him when their eyes met. Instead he finished what he wanted to do with Sasuke even *after *the stomach was already activated and then he left. With Kisame asserting Itachi did not need to leave.

What I'm saying is the above portrayal of that encounter does not suggest Itachi was "put on the defensive" as he simply wasn't minding Jiraiya in the first place.



> Jiraiya let the Itachi vs Sasuke fight go on because of Sasuke's history and will to fight. He was the one letting the fight go on.


I wasn't suggesting Jiraiya was scared of Itachi (he definitely is not), I was saying Itachi wasn't bothered with Jiraiya (and Kisame stating Itachi didn't need to escape is evidence that him retreating isn't due to a strength gap or being "pressured" but rather a choice of priorities)




> Jiraiya is >> Kisame
> Itachi is > Kisame
> 
> Jiraiya vs Kisame is a stomp hence Kisame running with his tail beneath his legs, Jiraiya vs Itachi *can* be a *fight* (however Itachi won't be the winner). That's what the line means.


Yes but it also means Itachi specifically could have stayed and fought Jiraiya instead of retreating, which defeats the notion that he was pressured or in a tough situation.




> If Jiraiya has been shown to understand everything behind genjutsu related battles then it's an indication that he of all people will not be vulnerable to it. That's what the author wants you to know.


Jiraiya was not shown to understand *everything *behind genjutsu, he was a gateway for the readers to understand basic Genjutsu principles in part 1 so it won't be repeated in the future everytime genjutsu is used. Future characters expanded on more specific information about Genjutsu.

What this means for Jiraiya is that *he understands that you need to break/disrupt chakra flow to break genjutsu *and *nothing more*. Which is something most jonin know already, do they render Itachi's genjutsu moot as well?




> His genjutsu failed against Kakashi's clone. His visual genjutsu was no where to be seen when fighting nagato and kabuto. Genjutsu in gerenal has failed more times it has succeeded.


Kakashi knows more about Genjutsu than Jiraiya and has a Sharingan, and he still felt it necessary to learn Gai's method of avoiding eye contact. Naruto (who was told by *Jiraiya himself* everything he knows about Genjutsu) was clowned by Itachi in that same fight.





> Chiyo fell for genjutsu? Kakashi fell for genjutsu? No he trolled it with a simple clone. Sakura was the one complaining about how hard it is and she is fodder at the point.


Jiraiya told the information he knows about genjutsu to Naruto, that means they are in the same ballpark if we only consider the knowledge part right? Why was Naruto clowned even though Jiraiya told him what he did?


> Chiyo and kakashi themselves are nowehere near Jiraiya's level.


That is irrelevant, Your argument was about Jiraiya's genjutsu countering abilities resting *only* on his knowledge of basic genjutsu function.


> But they did not get caught because they had knowledge and skills to get around it.


The argument is about basing sharingan genjutsu immunity on knowing how basic genjutsu operates.

The only way this is relevant is if their "skill and knowledge to get around it" can be attributed to them *just *from them knowing basic genjutsu, which is not. We needed to see them face it and see them counter it and they displayed more knowledge. Jiraiya only displayed knowledge of basic genjutsu mechanics.

Oonoki knowing he/the alliance need to close their eyes and you interpreting that as countering genjutsu has nothing to do with Jiraiya.




> I already said he can succeed with catching small-medium summons that Jiraiya uses, but catching Jiraiya himself is out of his reach.
> 
> One particular scenario can be Itachi fending off a summon attacking similar to here.
> 
> ...


Summons need to be close to Itachi for genjutsu to take effect > Jiraiya needs to be close to summons to break them out > Jiraiya is close to Itachi > Jiraiya is within range for Itachi's genjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 8, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> The actual raw isn't that precise though. _"If we fought"_ and_ "If I fought him"_ is saying the exact same thing using different words but the context remains clear. _"If we fought him" _is a subtle change in wording yet dramatically changes the meaning and is most likely where the confusion stems from.
> 
> Still, you could toss the line into freaking Google Translate and it gives the same context as VIZ despite how imperfect it is. That and Kisame's own implications makes it clear which line is more likely to be correct.
> 
> ...


 You seem to know more about translations and how they work than I do, so I'll concede here. At the very least, Itachi's statement pins them as equals.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 8, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> My main point was he can use that to shed his hair if he is hit with it. He may not be able to use it fast enough in base though, though it's possible that Itachi could hit a Shadow Clone, or not even be capable of aiming it at Jiraiya properly since he'd be getting attacked by ninjutsu.



Itachi can still move the flames towards him. 

If Itachi has Susanoo, he is free to use Amaterasu while being attacked by Ninjutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero890 (Jan 8, 2018)

Jiraiya was praised by Itachi himself and by Kisame, but somehow this is a "Genjutsu GG"


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## Hazuki (Jan 8, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Jiraiya was praised by Itachi himself and by Kisame, but somehow this is a "Genjutsu GG"



True
some people still don't understand why itachi would use a genjutsu an a woman if he could use easely on jiraiya himself ??
before itachi met jiraiya , he said to kisame about jiraiya that " every strong man has a weakness"
few moment later itachi use genjutsu on a woman ( we all know that woman are the weakness of jiraiya )

*itachi use genjutsu on kurenai and a strongest genjutsu  tsukiyomi on kakashi and even  tell kisame to kill him but he prefere to use a genjutsu on a random woman to put jiraiya busy and  didn't even thinking using a genjutsu on jiraiya ??
seriously itachi knew very well that it won't work as easely 
it's just pure logic..*

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blu-ray (Jan 8, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> And genjutsu is moot.
> Jiraiya is the one to introduce the counter genjutsu measures, recognize and dispel genjutsu. He is not falling for genjutsu. It is very much possible to fight without falling for sharingan genjutsu (ex- Oonoki)


Jiraiya didn't introduced genjutsu countermeasures. Genjutsu Kai and self inflicted pain were established in part 1 while his exposition dump was in part 2, and what he told Naruto was basic knowledge every generic Chunin and above knows, not some esoteric secret.

Finally, and this is the most critical point, is that _this advice failed. _The flashback was literally followed up with Jiraiya's anti genjutsu advice _not_ working on Itachi's genjutsu.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jan 8, 2018)

The ever so intense dream matchup. I've got Itachi winning a slight majority.


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> It was the 4 tails, not the three tails


Ok. 4 tails. Itachi was still swapping hands with KCM Naruto


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 8, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Base JIraiya was the one that put both Itachi & Kisame on the defense,


Itachi didn't want to fight an ally.. don't bring that retconned Jiraiya solos Itachi and Kisame bs



-Azula- said:


> And genjutsu is moot. Jiraiya is the one to introduce the counter genjutsu measures, recognize and dispel genjutsu. He is not falling for genjutsu. It is very much possible to fight without falling for sharingan genjutsu (ex- Oonoki)


Jiraiya has to fight Itachi without looking into his eyes at all times. If he looks into his eyes, it is gg for Jiraiya.  Tsukyomi is way too strong for someone without genjutsu experience and no ocular prowess

And is Jiraiya on the Raikage's speed? if not, how is he going to deal with Amaterasu?


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## Zero890 (Jan 8, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Itachi didn't want to fight an ally.. don't bring that retconned Jiraiya solos Itachi and Kisame bs



then as explain that kakashi was close to being killed by kisame?


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 8, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> then as explain that kakashi was close to being killed by kisame?


He wasn't close to being killed. The only reason Kakashi went down for good was because Itachi used a weakened forme of Tsukyomi. Granted Kisame would have beaten Kakashi if they fought all out, but what makes you think that Itachi and Kisame were out for blood? they could have just killed Asuma, Kakashi, Kurenai, and Guy all right there if they didn't care. Would have made things so much easier for them


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## Zero890 (Jan 8, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> He wasn't close to being killed. The only reason Kakashi went down for good was because Itachi used a weakened forme of Tsukyomi. Granted Kisame would have beaten Kakashi if they fought all out, but what makes you think that Itachi and Kisame were out for blood? they could have just killed Asuma, Kakashi, Kurenai, and Guy all right there if they didn't care. Would have made things so much easier for them



In fact, that is the most powerful Tsukuyomi we have seen so far because of its form of torture. They could have killed Kakashi if Gai had not miraculously arrived.


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## MSAL (Jan 9, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Jiraiya was praised by Itachi himself and by Kisame, but somehow this is a "Genjutsu GG"



He was rightly praised because of his reputation and his abilities. I don't like the idea of "GG", but genjutsu is a legitimate threat to most opponents, if wielded by a high level caster, yet alone a master. We saw base Sharingan genjutsu help end matches on three notable occasions, two of them from Itachi (vs Orochimaru, vs Deidara,) the other from Sasuke (vs Danzou).

It's potency shouldn't be underestimated.


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## MSAL (Jan 9, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> In fact, that is the most powerful Tsukuyomi we have seen so far because of its form of torture. *They could have killed Kakashi if Gai had not miraculously arrived*.



He was planning to capture Kakashi, when he revealed his awareness of Akatsuki, iirc.


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## MSAL (Jan 9, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> I think that was from a video game


 It was from the ninja storm games, iirc.


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## MSAL (Jan 9, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> I do not think the Sharingan can predict those Jutsus. Jiraiya also does not need hand seals to make Yomi Numa.



Yomi Numa requires handseals, like most ninjutsu does, to manipulate the chakra. You see Jiraiya with his hands clasped, when he is summoning it the first time.


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## Azula (Jan 9, 2018)

Shark said:


> What this means for Jiraiya is that *he understands that you need to break/disrupt chakra flow to break genjutsu *and *nothing more*.



1) Recognizing that Itachi cast the genjutsu on the woman with sharingan as a bait.



2) Dispelling the genjutsu.
3) Taught Naruto to fight against genjutsu as a bonus.

This is all you need, knowing that *genjutsu can be casted with sharingan* and *dispelling genjutsu for all other types of genjutsu*. What other special knowledge you are talking about that one needs?

Oonoki did fine with all these against Madara, he wasn't caught and broke it when Raikage was caught.

And please don't say Tsukuyomi because it won't come into picture if opponent fights with no. eye contact



Shark said:


> Which is something most jonin know already, do they render Itachi's genjutsu moot as well?





Jounins are fodder who don't have the skills to contend with Itachi. Jiraiya has the skills.

Information is useful in the hands of the one with the power and not the powerless fodders.



Shark said:


> Oonoki knowing he/the alliance need to close their eyes and you interpreting that as countering genjutsu has nothing to do with Jiraiya.



*"interpreting"???????*

That is* all *there is to sharingan genjutsu counter.

No eye contact = no genjutsu.



Shark said:


> Kakashi knows more about Genjutsu than Jiraiya and has a Sharingan, and he still felt it necessary to learn Gai's method of avoiding eye contact.



Oonoki didn't so learning Gai's method is not a requirement.

Again I said you guys gotta stop inventing minimum requirements to fight genjutsu.



Blu-ray said:


> Jiraiya didn't introduced genjutsu countermeasures. Genjutsu Kai and self inflicted pain were established in part 1 while his exposition dump was in part 2, and what he told Naruto was basic knowledge every generic Chunin and above knows, not some esoteric secret.



Introduced it to Naruto then.

Introducing the Main Character to the main antagonists (Uchihas) genjutsu carries more weight than some random schmuck's genjutsu/explaination.



> Finally, and this is the most critical point, is that _this advice failed. _The flashback was literally followed up with Jiraiya's anti genjutsu advice _not_ working on Itachi's genjutsu.



Naruto was the one that *failed* because* he* was poor at doing what needed to be done.

Jiraiay is overall knowledgeable at fighting against genjutsu so genjutsu gg is not an argument. 



Nuttynutdude said:


> Jiraiya has to fight Itachi without looking into his eyes at all times.



Which is not hard to do for most high levels and no one complained about it all throughout Madara fight.



> Tsukyomi is way too strong for someone without genjutsu experience and no ocular prowess



Tsukuyomi requires close eye contact like others and can be evaded like other genjutsu.



> And is Jiraiya on the Raikage's speed? if not, how is he going to deal with Amaterasu?



Raikage's speed is not a minimum requirement for dealing with amaterasu otherwise Half dead Naruto wouldn't have blocked it while standing still, you guys gotta stop inventing minimum requirements for fighting Uchiha. 

He blocks it with his hair and sheds it off.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Jan 9, 2018)

@*~ *You are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I'm not talking about whether Jiraiya knows everything there is to know about sharingan genjutsu or not.

I'm saying that simply knowing =/= being adept at countering which is evidenced by everyone and their mother knowing what sharingan genjutsu is. Why am I saying this? Because this is what your original post implied: That Jiraiya knowing you disrupt chakra flow to break genjutsu means sharingan genjutsu is moot against him.

There are other factors and ways for why and how Jiraiya can fight against genjutsu, but his knowledge of what everyone knows already being *enough *of a reason to label illusions as moot against him is *not factual* (which is what you said and what I was responding to).

Reactions: Like 3


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## Blu-ray (Jan 9, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Introduced it to Naruto then.
> 
> Introducing the Main Character to the main antagonists (Uchihas) genjutsu carries more weight than some random schmuck's genjutsu/explaination


It was Chiyo and Kakashi who gave the explanation on how to deal with Sharingan genjutsu specifically. Jiraiya didn't even mention the Uchiha. He simply said there were enemies that use genjutsu and told Naruto the general counter. The counter everyone knows.



-Azula- said:


> Naruto was the one that *failed* because* he* was poor at doing what needed to be done.


Jiraiya is also poor at it. In fact people who _weren't_ poor at it failed, including Orochimaru. Y'know, his equal, with more in depth knowledge on the Sharingan as well as mastery of genjutsu? Can't ignore that elephant in the room forever.



> Jiraiay is overall knowledgeable at fighting against genjutsu so genjutsu gg is not an argument.


So was Deidara, Danzo, Orochimaru and a bunch of other folk around Jiraiya's level. In fact they were more knowledgeable and had better genjutsu ability.


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## Zero890 (Jan 9, 2018)

MSAL said:


> Yomi Numa requires handseals, like most ninjutsu does, to manipulate the chakra. You see Jiraiya with his hands clasped, when he is summoning it the first time.



Against Pain, Jiraiya did not use hand seals.


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## Zero890 (Jan 9, 2018)

MSAL said:


> He was planning to capture Kakashi, when he revealed his awareness of Akatsuki, iirc.



And that's why I say he would have been killed.


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## Zero890 (Jan 9, 2018)

MSAL said:


> He was rightly praised because of his reputation and his abilities. I don't like the idea of "GG", but genjutsu is a legitimate threat to most opponents, if wielded by a high level caster, yet alone a master. We saw base Sharingan genjutsu help end matches on three notable occasions, two of them from Itachi (vs Orochimaru, vs Deidara,) the other from Sasuke (vs Danzou).
> 
> It's potency shouldn't be underestimated.



Itachi mentions that Jiraiya is very strong and says he has to take advantage of his weakness. Itachi, the best of Genjutsus, was not sure that his Genjutsus worked on Jiraiya, that's what I mean. If Itachi recognizes that the Genjutsus would not define a combat between them, then there should not be a "Genjutsu GG". Orochimaru fell due to his overconfidence, Danzo was affected by a Genjutsu that only changed a very tiny detail.


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## Shazam (Jan 9, 2018)

MSAL said:


> MS Itachi vs Jiraiya
> 
> *Location:* 30% Itachi vs Team Kakashi
> *Mindset: *IC
> ...



Jiriyia requires Sage Mode to beat MS Itachi, otherwise he'd depend on winning in a war of attrition, however I believe Itachi is smart enough in combat knowing his weakness not to allow that to happen. With Sage Mode Jiriyia has all the means necessary to beat MS Itachi

It really isnt that hard of a debate, if you read through all the archive threads between the two, it comes down to _SM Jman >= MS Itachi >> Base Jman >= 3T Itachi_


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## Maverick04 (Jan 9, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Jiriyia requires Sage Mode to beat MS Itachi, otherwise he'd depend on winning in a war of attrition, however I believe Itachi is smart enough in combat knowing his weakness not to allow that to happen. With Sage Mode Jiriyia has all the means necessary to beat MS Itachi
> 
> It really isnt that hard of a debate, if you read through all the archive threads between the two, it comes down to _SM Jman >= MS Itachi >> Base Jman >= 3T Itachi_


V4 Susanoo with the spirit weapons gives Itachi an edge here..I mean everything besides Audio genjutsu is blocked by it..The only way I can see Jiraiya beating Itachi is if the latter is sick and can't maintain his susanoo for long


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## Zero890 (Jan 9, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> V4 Susanoo with the spirit weapons gives Itachi an edge here..I mean everything besides Audio genjutsu is blocked by it..The only way I can see Jiraiya beating Itachi is if the latter is sick and can't maintain his susanoo for long



Yomi Numa

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jan 9, 2018)

Naruto and Sasuke's benchmarks are pretty much obvious :
1-Jiraya/Orochimaru
2-Minato/Itachi
3-Hashirama/Madara
4-Ashura/Indra
Therefore, the difference in strengh between Itachi and Jiraya is pretty clear.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Useful 1 | Dislike 1


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## Maverick04 (Jan 9, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Yomi Numa


I've already told you a counter for that..He has the Sharingan..He reads the handsigns..He evades or just gives the jutsu back


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## Zero890 (Jan 9, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> I've already told you a counter for that..He has the Sharingan..He reads the handsigns..He evades or just gives the jutsu back



It does not require hand seals and he will not be able to avoid it.


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## Maverick04 (Jan 9, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> It does not require hand seals and he will not be able to avoid it.


Reread the Manga..He used hand signs..And Sharingan sees through all jutsus..It has been said bajillion times..Itachi can copy the jutsu even before Jiraiya even attempt to use the jutsu..Or he can just shunshin away from the Aoe..Easy peasy


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## MSAL (Jan 9, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Jiriyia requires Sage Mode to beat MS Itachi, otherwise he'd depend on winning in a war of attrition, however I believe Itachi is smart enough in combat knowing his weakness not to allow that to happen. With Sage Mode Jiriyia has all the means necessary to beat MS Itachi
> 
> It really isnt that hard of a debate, if you read through all the archive threads between the two, it comes down to _SM Jman >= MS Itachi >> Base Jman >= 3T Itachi_



I wanted to create a thread where all types of discussion could take place, and from both sides of the coin. I didn't want to taint the discussion by favouring one side or the other with advantages or not. That is why I started Jiraiya in base (which is where he spends most of his time, for obvious reasons) and Itachi at a suitable range, where he is not completely disarmed of genjutsu, but  people cannot just say "immediate genjutsu, gg"

Simple discussions

Reactions: Like 1


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## MSAL (Jan 9, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Against Pain, Jiraiya did not use hand seals.



You don't see his body when Yomi Numa is cast against Pain, you only a close up shot of his face. What you do see, when Jiraiya is setting up the previous Katons, is him using handseals. What you do see the first time he uses Yomi Numa, is his hands clasped together, using handseals.


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## MSAL (Jan 9, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> And that's why I say he would have been killed.



He wouldn't have been killed until he mentioned Akatsuki, provoking that possible response if he was captured (or not, we won't know). Remember, he was a double agent, he needed to play the role. Undercover work.


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## MSAL (Jan 9, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Itachi mentions that Jiraiya is very strong and says he has to take advantage of his weakness. Itachi, the best of Genjutsus, was not sure that his Genjutsus worked on Jiraiya, that's what I mean. If Itachi recognizes that the Genjutsus would not define a combat between them, then there should not be a "Genjutsu GG". Orochimaru fell due to his overconfidence, Danzo was affected by a Genjutsu that only changed a very tiny detail.




Nor do I want to see the words "genjutsu gg".

What I'm trying to say is that sharingan genjutsu is a powerful supplementary tool if used correctly, even against experienced opponents. It shouldn't be discounted as an effective form of offense.

The reason Itachi used a genjutsu on a civilian to lure Jiraiya away, was because it would make things easier to capture Naruto, and because they wouldn't have to fight a potentially prolonged battle inside enemy territory, which is a logical conclusion, tbh.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 9, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Naruto and Sasuke's benchmarks are pretty much obvious :
> 1-Jiraya/Orochimaru
> 2-Minato/Itachi
> 3-Hashirama/Madara
> ...



Except Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya at the same time as Sasuke did with Itachi and Oro. Though, Oro is hard to say seeing as we never saw him in a proper fight with all his jutsu.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## hbcaptain (Jan 9, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya at the same time as Sasuke did with Itachi and Oro. Though, Oro is hard to say seeing as we never saw him in a proper fight with all his jutsu.


I know what you'll say but this is your point of view not mine, this point was precisely discussed multiple times by mulitiple persons in the forum and thus you also know at least a part of the arguments which doesn't follow your logic based on one panel only.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 10, 2018)

Jiraiya would win this.

He get in SM against Path Trio in their own hood/location. w/o any source of knowledge or prep. And he also took one of the pain after a long tough fight, and losing an arm ( that means bye bye to ninjutsu and proper taijutsu) . So Jiraiya can get in SM.

And Jiraiya already portrayed as >= to Itachi was in base ( both in manga and databook) . 

He has correct  & exact answers to Itachi's arsenal. He has better stamina & physicality . Also more versatile, much more experienced. And Itachi already describes as " best possible outcome is a bloody stalemate". 

So don't waste your breaths anymore.

Jiraiya win this 8/10 at least in these conditions. With proper knowledge or prep. ıt would be 10/10

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 10, 2018)

Itachi wins this scenario more often than not. The two are about equal and typically speaking, in the Jiraiya/Itachi argument the more they know about each other the higher Jiraiya’s odds of winning, and the less they know the higher Itachi’s odds are.

Itachi can directly counter everything in Jiraiya’s Arsenal besides the Frog Song, which requires some prep. Jiraiya can counter everything in Itachi’s arsenal, but needs knowledge to reliably counter Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susano. Jiraiya can also win by just outlasting, but Itachi has enough one hit kill techniques to quickly end it. Jiraiya has a diverse enough arsenal of good techniques and enough chakra to waste attacks, which makes it difficult to counter his Jutsu once he has Sage Mode even with knowledge as he has a dozen threatening abilities.

With Manga knowledge, Jiraiya has a general idea on Amaterasu, knows of Tsukuyomi, and knows of Itachi’s base Genjutsu. Susano meanwhile is probably the least dangerous of those four options to Jiraiya, giving Jiraiya the edge. With full knowledge it becomes even harder for Itachi to win with Jiraiya understanding how Susano works and the limitations of Itachi’s of Itachi’s chakra. Then there is the factor of Jiraiya having a better idea that he should enter Sage Mode.

Without any knowledge or with reputation knowledge, Jiraiya is substantially less likely to aim for Sage Mode. He also doesn’t know that the easiest way to deal with several of Itachi’s Jutsu is pre prepped defenses (Bunshin for example) or fighting indirectly, won’t know that several Itachi’s Jutsu will be very difficult to sense and almost impossible to evade out in the open, and won’t know that staring into his Itachi’s eyes can be a literal death.

Then, there is the factor that the fight starts with Jiraiya in base and out in a relatively open area, which is not good for him.

Overall, I believe Itachi wins 7/10, most of his wins with mid difficulty.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 10, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> I know what you'll say but this is your point of view not mine, this point was precisely discussed multiple times by mulitiple persons in the forum and thus you also know at least a part of the arguments which doesn't follow your logic based on one panel only.



What I do know is that it was made clear in the manga, except Jiraiya/Minato/Itachi fans didn't like the implication so they chose to ignore the meaning.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## hbcaptain (Jan 10, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What I do know is that it was made clear in the manga, except Jiraiya/Minato/Itachi fans didn't like the implication so they chose to ignore the meaning.


What was made clear is that Naruto didn't surpass Minato until achieving BM in chapter 571. KCM only made them remember Minato in his best cases, who was completly unbeatable.
And that Sasuke didn't surpass Itachi untile EMS (ie:4th Databook).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 10, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> What was made clear is that Naruto didn't surpass Minato until achieving BM in chapter 571. KCM only made them remember Minato in his best cases, who was completly unbeatable.
> And that Sasuke didn't surpass Itachi untile EMS (ie:4th Databook).



What was made clear was after mastering SM Naruto surpassed Minato hence Fukasaku said Naruto surpassed those who came before him... that included Minato. 

KCM just had him move really fast which generated yellow flashes... hence Minato. In fact by that point Naruto said he wanted to be cooler than Minato and stronger than Kushina. Even Naruto didn't see Minato's strength as one to surpass. 

The 4th databook says no such thing. Itachi himself said he'd be inferior to Sasuke if he had the MS hence Sasuke would only lose because he lacks the MS. That's the reason he held back.


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## MSAL (Jan 10, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The 4th databook says no such thing. *Itachi himself said he'd be inferior to Sasuke if he had the MS hence Sasuke would only lose because he lacks the MS*. That's the reason he held back.



He didn't specifically say Sasuke would 100% defeat him with MS all out. What he did imply, was that MS was *the minimum* needed to defeat him. Saying Sasuke *could* defeat him with MS, is not admission of inferiority. Sasuke' weakness was his temperament, not his talent. He got that under control by the time he fought alongside Naruto in the war, and then he surpassed Itachi as a shinobi.

It's implied heavily through the plot that teamwork was proof of a superior shinobi, and Sasuke' acceptance with the brief reforming of team 7 was the full circle of Sasuke' journey (unless we want to include his fight with Naruto, but I don't for this purpose).


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## Shazam (Jan 10, 2018)

How well does Susanoo do when Yomi Numa is used against it ? 

Which will last longer, Sage Mode or Itachi's weakening eyes & chakra ?

Could a giant SM enhanced Rasengan bust into Itachi's Susanoo ?

Is the best answer simply; Jiriyia lasts until frog song is prepped ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## MSAL (Jan 10, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What was made clear was after mastering SM Naruto surpassed Minato hence Fukasaku said Naruto surpassed those who came before him... that included Minato.
> 
> KCM just had him move really fast which generated yellow flashes... hence Minato. In fact by that point Naruto said he wanted to be cooler than Minato and stronger than Kushina. Even Naruto didn't see Minato's strength as one to surpass.
> 
> The 4th databook says no such thing. Itachi himself said he'd be inferior to Sasuke if he had the MS hence Sasuke would only lose because he lacks the MS. That's the reason he held back.



Also, could we please keep discussion on Topic please. I don't mind slight digressions if it helps the op, but Sasuke has nothing to do with this fight, even comparatively. Please don't derail my thread with parallels.


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## MSAL (Jan 10, 2018)

jnikools said:


> How well does Susanoo do when Yomi Numa is used against it ?
> 
> Which will last longer, Sage Mode or Itachi's weakening eyes & chakra ?
> 
> ...



Good questions. Maybe someone will help answer these.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 10, 2018)

jnikools said:


> How well does Susanoo do when Yomi Numa is used against it ?


Yata surfboard solos

Yomi numa could trap it momentarily, SM Yomi Numa would give Susanoo problems.


jnikools said:


> Which will last longer, Sage Mode or Itachi's weakening eyes & chakra ?


Jiraiya's SM is literally ngh indefinite, whereas Itachi died using 5 MS techs. Inb4, "bu-but he was on his deathbeedddddd" Itachi even in part 1, (of which theres absolutely no proof he was still on his deathbed at the time) was still getting winded after using two tsukuyomi's and Amaterasu. Jiraiya's SM would last longer and its by a laughable degree



jnikools said:


> Could a giant SM enhanced Rasengan bust into Itachi's Susanoo ?


Jiriaya's rasengan was hyped to be able to easily cave a mountain, it obliterates at Ribcage-, causes severe damage to V3 and gets walled at V4.



jnikools said:


> Is the best answer simply; Jiriyia lasts until frog song is prepped ?


Nope, Jiraiya has other methods of winning, frog song is just an absolute definite. He could catch Itachi in the swamp of Yomi Numa, while he's in Susanoo, whilst he's trapped he can get ensnared by frog call which forces his susanoo to go down to a weaker level, then proceeds to wreck with COR.

SM Jiraiya would be most deadly in this location, as it one filled with a body of water. In this location Jiraiya can utilize Kekkai:  or Gamagakure no Jutsu()-(). Any little slip up or major distraction and Itachi could be either sent to the frog dimension, or Jiraiya hops into the small toad(inb4 360 degrees sharingan fanfic) and sets up an assault from behind.

Base Jiraiya wouldn't take it for the majority, not because of Amaterasu but mainly susanoo.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Bloo (Jan 11, 2018)

Well... this was a fun read on an age-old topic.

My opinion hasn't shifted in all these years. Itachi is far above Jiraiya in terms of strength. Jiraiya's only chance of beating Itachi rests on Sage Mode (something Itachi is rather knowledgeable on). Even with Sage Mode, Itachi would still be a very tough competitor against Jiraiya. Remember, Jiraiya is the weakest sage we've seen in the entire series. Among Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto, and Minato, Jiraiya is the only character we've seen to demonstrate an imperfect sage mode that requires the assistance of summons. There is no strong argument to be made to suggest that these summons — Ma and Pa — would not be susceptible to genjutsu cast by Itachi to disrupt Jiraiya's imperfect sage mode indefinitely. Even beyond that, it's not difficult to imagine Itachi deducing that chakra is being sent from the sage frogs to Jiraiya because of the Sharingan's ability to visibly see chakra flow. He can easily kill one of the frog couple with a quick Amaterasu and there goes Jiraiya's chance at beating Itachi.

Quite frankly, Itachi's arsenal is simply too efficient at one-on-one combat and he's a very intelligent, proficient fighter. It also doesn't help that all of his arsenal is easily accessible with a literal blink of an eye. His superiority in genjutsu, combined with Jiraiya's noted weakness in the art, renders Itachi to be in a position where he's going to have at most a mid-level battle here.

I think many people misconstrue the battle of Itachi vs. Jiraiya as them being equal for two stupid reasons. Reason #1 because that they both have a combined stat total of 35.5. This number is entirely fan-made. The Databook does not provide a "total" number that is supposed to provide any data of note. Fans simply decided it would be cool to add the numbers provided by the Databook and that's what that is. The stat totals do not really mean anything and shouldn't be given any direct weight. It is also worth mentioning that Itachi bests Jiraiya in four of the eight categories, while Jiraiya only bests Itachi in two of the eight categories. Once you factor in some of the numerous cases where the stats don't align well with manga demonstrations and the Databook isn't a strong argument for them being of the same tier — such examples would include Itachi destroying Orochimaru in genjutsu while both of them have five ratings in genjutsu. Reason #2 is the out-of-date claim that Itachi was somehow admitting inferiority to Jiraiya in Part I. The Viz Media scans don't paint this picture and Kisame was making a simple observation of the reputation of the Uchiha/Legendary Swordsmen with respect to the title of Sannin. The argument is baseless and moot given the revelations of Itachi's past.

Based solely on feats, there is no reason to believe that Jiraiya stands much chance against Itachi. To remind those that have forgotten, Jiraiya has had two near-death encounters (not including Pain, obviously): when he was peeping on Tsunade and when a KN4 Naruto attacked him. Itachi was casually exchanging fists with KCM Naruto while outspeeding a Perfect Jinchuuruki with Bee in the background. 

Itachi is above Jiraiya. Itachi is Sasuke's parallel to Naruto's Minato. Jiraiya is Naruto's parallel to Sasuke's Orochimaru.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## hbcaptain (Jan 11, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What was made clear was after mastering SM Naruto surpassed Minato hence Fukasaku said Naruto surpassed those who came before him... that included Minato.
> 
> KCM just had him move really fast which generated yellow flashes... hence Minato. In fact by that point Naruto said he wanted to be cooler than Minato and stronger than Kushina. Even Naruto didn't see Minato's strength as one to surpass.
> 
> The 4th databook says no such thing. Itachi himself said he'd be inferior to Sasuke if he had the MS hence Sasuke would only lose because he lacks the MS. That's the reason he held back.


Nah, KCM was compared to Minato because he is still inferior to his dad, in fact he was still compared to him even after gaining BM, so....
And no, it was not only about speed, but about goatiness, he had to prove to everyone (Raikage, Tsunade, Bee,..) that he has become the invincible messi in the place of his father.
The simple fact, he needs to master all of Kurama's power in order to beat the man who was defeated by his father is more than enough as a proof.
If you want more, then Minato and Jiraya are two different benchmarks, meaning the two of them are separeted with a fair amount of strengh, meaning SM Naruto can't surpass both of them at the same time.



> The 4th databook says no such thing


"_Implanting Itachi’s eyes, the Mangekyo Sharingan, it gave him an eternal light that was turned on. It also surpassed his older brother’s ninjutsu and doujutsu._"
And this is just ninjutsu and Dojutsu since Itachi still wrecks his Kabuto fight version with far superior intelligence on top of spiritual weapons against which Sasuke has no tools to deal with.
Also, Itachi literally "never ever" stated Sasuke would surpass him with MS. If you're talking about the plot he schemed since the beggining, ie: the play in which he would die against his little bro, then you're merely talking about a schem, nothing more nothing less since he never intented to win to begin with.


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## Kisame (Jan 11, 2018)

jnikools said:


> How well does Susanoo do when Yomi Numa is used against it ?


If I'm not mistaken Susano'o has no footing on the ground.

Even if it did, when we compare the portrayal of both techniques in the manga, it is obvious Susano'o is leagues above techniques like Yomi Numa.



> Which will last longer, Sage Mode or Itachi's weakening eyes & chakra ?


Jiraiya needs to achieve SM first.

One MS technique from Itachi is all he needs to win.

So I doubt attrition will be what decides the fight.


> Could a giant SM enhanced Rasengan bust into Itachi's Susanoo ?


Unlikely.

Jiraiya wouldn't want to get close to Susano'o anyway, Totsuka blade will swiftly end the fight then and there, as per Orochimaru and Nagato.



> Is the best answer simply; Jiriyia lasts until frog song is prepped ?


Would Jiraiya even last until SM is achieved in the first place?


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## Zero890 (Jan 11, 2018)

Senpo Kebari Senbon in the back, with a distraction ahead, can Itachi survive?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 11, 2018)

MSAL said:


> He didn't specifically say Sasuke would 100% defeat him with MS all out. What he did imply, was that MS was *the minimum* needed to defeat him. Saying Sasuke *could* defeat him with MS, is not admission of inferiority. Sasuke' weakness was his temperament, not his talent. He got that under control by the time he fought alongside Naruto in the war, and then he surpassed Itachi as a shinobi.
> 
> It's implied heavily through the plot that teamwork was proof of a superior shinobi, and Sasuke' acceptance with the brief reforming of team 7 was the full circle of Sasuke' journey (unless we want to include his fight with Naruto, but I don't for this purpose).



Nothing like that was said at all. He literally said Sasuke's dream would not come true simply because he does not possess the Mangekyou Sharingan. An overwhelming amount of translations, including Viz, point this out. What happens? Itachi holds back his strongest jutsu, Susanoo. Itachi's power stopped being relevant to Sasuke when the latter awakened and mastered his Mangekyou.

The teamwork is more for Sasuke's character development, not a comparison of his power relative to Itachi's. It doesn't inspire such confidence when Itachi had to be brought back with infinite chakra and an MS which will never go blind to fight alongside Sasuke. Basically, Itachi was revived stronger than he was in life indicating that a power up ago (MS), Sasuke had surpassed Itachi. This is similar to Minato's case with Naruto- but that's for another thread.



jnikools said:


> How well does Susanoo do when Yomi Numa is used against it ?



It can sink seeing as Gaara's sand could bind it and all. Though, it can be deactivated and reactivated.



> Which will last longer, Sage Mode or Itachi's weakening eyes & chakra ?



Let's be real. Jiraiya basically has an unlimited Sage Mode and Itachi's got poor chakra reserves. Weakened eyes don't mean much except no Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi; Susanoo is still useable.



> Could a giant SM enhanced Rasengan bust into Itachi's Susanoo ?



The databook explicitly excluded Fuuinjutsu, Genjutsu, sound and Senjutsu from the list of thinks Yata's Mirror could block. If the Rasengan is strong enough, it may potentially do so.



> Is the best answer simply; Jiriyia lasts until frog song is prepped ?



No, because he has to avoid a ton of other things. If he can set up the scenario, then it is plausible.



hbcaptain said:


> Nah, KCM was compared to Minato because he is still inferior to his dad, in fact he was still compared to him even after gaining BM, so....
> And no, it was not only about speed, but about goatiness, he had to prove to everyone (Raikage, Tsunade, Bee,..) that he has become the invincible messi in the place of his father.
> The simple fact, he needs to master all of Kurama's power in order to beat the man who was defeated by his father is more than enough as a proof.
> If you want more, then Minato and Jiraya are two different benchmarks, meaning the two of them are separeted with a fair amount of strengh, meaning SM Naruto can't surpass both of them at the same time.



That's not what the manga suggested.


> "_Implanting Itachi’s eyes, the Mangekyo Sharingan, it gave him an eternal light that was turned on. It also surpassed his older brother’s ninjutsu and doujutsu._"
> And this is just ninjutsu and Dojutsu since Itachi still wrecks his Kabuto fight version with far superior intelligence on top of spiritual weapons against which Sasuke has no tools to deal with.
> Also, Itachi literally "never ever" stated Sasuke would surpass him with MS. If you're talking about the plot he schemed since the beggining, ie: the play in which he would die against his little bro, then you're merely talking about a schem, nothing more nothing less since he never intented to win to begin with.



That isn't what the manga suggested either.

Basically the fans of the surpassed characters made up a lot of facts like the ones you pointed out to avoid the clear meaning of the manga.

So no, using actual facts your conclusion is wrong for reasons we can discuss in another thread.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 11, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That isn't what the manga suggested either.


This is not the manga but YOUR OWN suggestion or would I say info extrapolation, and well, I'm not losing my time anymore.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 11, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> This is not the manga but YOUR OWN suggestion or would I say info extrapolation, and well, I'm not losing my time anymore.



You had to make a large case to make a point which didn't exist. The manga's suggestion: "Naruto surpassed those who came before him" *cue image of Minato and Jiraiya*. Interpretation: Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya, those who came before him. Your view: "MY CANON says this doesn't make sense" *cue looping in points which make no real contribution*.

Likewise with Sasuke and Itachi. Manga suggestion: "[Sasuke's] dream will remain a fantasy solely because he doesn't possess the Mangekyou". Interpretation: Sasuke's dream (killing Itachi) will never come true because he doesn't have the MS. Backed up by a few facts i.e. how in light of this Itachi held back Susanoo and ended up giving Sasuke the MS. The databook just says Itach's eyes surpass Itachi's; not Itachi as a shinobi. The view you purport: "MY CANON says this can't be" *cue finding interpretations and points which don't match up*.

So you are very wrong in saying Itachi and Jiraiya are in completely different tiers when they were surpassed at the same time. If you want to distort facts and assume Itachi was on a different level, you can provided you know you'll be wrong. If, however, you use the facts as presented, they're in the same tier.

Meaning the quick shortcut argument doesn't work. Though, in a scenario like this, Itachi has more shots of winning.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Braiyan (Jan 11, 2018)

With Jiraiya starting in base, without any in depth knowledge on Itachi's tricks, he is likely to lose.

Even people with manga knowledge have fallen for Itachi's genjutsu, and considering Jiraiya only has reputation here to go off of, he is very likely to fall for Itachi's lesser known tricks (like finger genjutsu, or Sharingan genjutsu from the Koto crow in the middle of a crow clone feint), leaving him open for other attacks, or a 1 shot via any of his MS techniques. Base Jiraiya doesn't have much of a defense against such subtle methods of casting genjutsu, and so genjutsu will always be an important factor that he would have to deal with, even if he was actively avoiding Itachi's eyes (like Naruto did both times he was caught, or Kakashi).

Other than that Jiraiya doesn't have a way to put down Itachi while in base. Summons are too slow and can be turned against him with genjutsu. His elemental jutsus can be anticipated with Sharingan and countered by Itachi's own elemental jutsus. Taijutsu is a bad idea against a guy who can create shadow clones in the middle of a shuriken barrage. And if Itachi finds himself pressed, he can bust out Susano'o way faster than Jiraiya can get into Sage Mode. Even Base Jiraiya's defensive techniques, like Lion's Mane and Toad Mouth Bind, are a bad idea when Itachi can just light up everything with Amaterasu. 

Jiraiya starting in Base with no valuable knowledge (outside of Itachi is Akatsuki and has Sharingan) is simply out of his league here, as he is way more likely to make mistakes that get him killed. He would have to be starting out in Sage Mode and with manga knowledge to stand a chance, IMO.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 11, 2018)

Jiraiya was surpassed by Naruto first becasue we actually got to see , Naruto Master Sage Mode and use most of those abilities at their max , where as Sasuke had to actually master the MS over a longer period of time thru multiple battles and once he actually mastered it he went blind , then Sasuke’s first fight with EMS he was held back by not being able to fight for the kill then like Unlike Jiraiya who had nothing outside of Sage Mode that made him dangerous to upper tiers outside of MS Itachi had Izanami another powerful Sharingan ability, so it was always more dicey but the overall point is once Sasuke/Naruto actually took Sharingan/Sage Mode beyond Jiraiya/Itachi they were flat out stronger 

Itachi did not serve the same function as Minato did in the manga , becasue Minato was never there for Naruto in life 

If you think about it Orochimaru serves more as that for Sasuke as the series goes on comparable genius even surpassing that , both gave Sasuke/Naruto a power they both had trouble controlling CS/Kurama , both never really learned their pivotal techniques with FTG, and Edo Tensei , both share a summoning with Snakes and Frogs etc


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## MSAL (Jan 11, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nothing like that was said at all. He literally said Sasuke's dream would not come true simply because he does not possess the Mangekyou Sharingan. An overwhelming amount of translations, including Viz, point this out. What happens? Itachi holds back his strongest jutsu, Susanoo. Itachi's power stopped being relevant to Sasuke when the latter awakened and mastered his Mangekyou.



That's not the same as an admission of inferiority if Sasuke gained MS. If that's what you want to believe though, so be it. I'm more interested on your continued views in relation to this thread' op. Thank you.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MSAL (Jan 11, 2018)

If people continue to think it likely to be one sided, I will allow Jiraiya to have manga knowledge. Itachi can stay at rep. I wan't to keep it as close to a real battle as possible, and Jiraiya starting immediately in Sage Mode, isn't going to happen, unless they ran into each other when Jiraiya was in that form. 

I want to see If Jiraiya is able to fend off Itachi enough to reach SM or if Itachi can likely finish Jiraiya before he becomes a real threat to him.


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## Buuhan (Jan 11, 2018)

MSAL said:


> That's not the same as an admission of inferiority if Sasuke gained MS. If that's what you want to believe though, so be it. I'm more interested on your continued views in relation to this thread' op. Thank you.


From what I can tell Itachi signifies that to operate on  his level Sasuke needed the ms. That doesn’t take into account the different abilities each of their MS gives them as well as how they fight. I agree that assuming Itachi says he will be inferior once Sasuke gains ms is a reach.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Itachibeatsmadara (Jan 12, 2018)

Easy itachi stomps negative difficulty, really unbalanced fight.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2018)

MSAL said:


> That's not the same as an admission of inferiority if Sasuke gained MS. If that's what you want to believe though, so be it. I'm more interested on your continued views in relation to this thread' op. Thank you.



But that's exactly what he said...


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## MSAL (Jan 14, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But that's exactly what he said...



He said, Sasuke would need MS to surpass him, aka Sasuke could not defeat him with three tomoe. 

He didn't say Sasuke will defeat him with MS. Besides, he was clearly baiting at the time.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 21, 2018)

MSAL said:


> He said, Sasuke would need MS to surpass him, aka Sasuke could not defeat him with three tomoe.
> 
> He didn't say Sasuke will defeat him with MS. Besides, he was clearly baiting at the time.



He outright said Sasuke dream would remain a dream because he lacks the Mangekyou. Sasuke's dream was to kill Itachi. Since Sasuke lacked the Mangekyou, Itachi held back.


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## Nuttynutdude (Feb 4, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> 1) Recognizing that Itachi cast the genjutsu on the woman with sharingan as a bait.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what you're saying, is that visual genjutsu is completely 100% obsolete jonin level+ because every character can fight perfectly fine without making eye contact?


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