# Kizaru, Akainu, Aokiji vs old WB and Shanks



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 10, 2017)




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## charles101 (Dec 10, 2017)

3 top tiers vs 2 top tiers...

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## Ruse (Dec 10, 2017)

Akainu stalls Shanks while the other two wreck WB.

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## Kylo Ren (Dec 10, 2017)

Yonko win extreme diff

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## Magentabeard (Dec 10, 2017)

Yonkou win very high diff

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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 10, 2017)

What's with the sudden glut of shitty unequal Admirals vs Yonkou threads.

Admirals low to no difficulty.

I mean, I don't know how many times I have to bang on about this point on here but these things aren't fucking *linear. *You don't add these guys power levels up like mathematical equations and see whether their combined totals exceed the other groups - no you look at their powers & abilities and how they interact with one another.

Unless you have Gohara level delusion about Shanks' placement in the OPworld at worst, Aokiji and Kizaru can stall them each by themselves for a period of time. That leaves Akainu free to roam about and Magmafist them from the back, when each of the Yonkou  are distracted dealing with an Admiral - it'd be as easy and quick as that.

You *don't *give an Admiral a free opening, unless you want to lose quickly or lose body parts. Just ask the likes of Jozu and WB what happens when you do.



Edit - The above two posts. Yonko wank and lack of critical thought still stronk as ever on the OL.

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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 10, 2017)

Shanks and Whitebeard would take it. In my opinion, it would require two admirals to defeat Shanks, but it would be a close match-up against two of them. Assuming we're talking about Marineford Whitebeard, he should be able to take an admiral with him, but I still think he would be the one standing until he goes down. That said, he should be able to interfere in the fight with Shanks and help him take the win.

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## Daisuke Jigen (Dec 10, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> In my opinion, it would require two admirals to defeat Shanks, but it would be a close match-up against two of them.


OT: C3 win.


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## Kylo Ren (Dec 10, 2017)

you can't blame us we didn't think that Admiral = to Yonko, Yonko > Admiral and after all WB defeat Akainu by two hits and what's this "you don't give an opening to an admiral" didn't Akainu got a free hit on WB? and look at what happen your admiral still defeated this is Yonko not FM bro.

Keep your opinion/comment to yourself, if you can't accept ours and you talk like as if there is no basis to our answer and our answer is like a delusional thinking.

in my point of view Shanks can hold Aokiji and Kizaru and can last long better than Akainu facing WB and WB come to help Shanks after he's done. and we got a panel that a Yonko(WB) took two hits to defeat Admiral(Akainu) not the other way around.

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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 10, 2017)

Don King said:


> you can't blame us we didn't think that Admiral = to Yonko, Yonko > Admiral and after all WB defeat Akainu by two hits and what's this "you don't give an opening to an admiral" didn't Akainu got a free hit on WB? and look at what happen your admiral still defeated this is Yonko not FM bro.
> 
> Keep your opinion/comment to yourself, if you can't accept ours and you talk like as if there is no basis to our answer and our answer is like a delusional thinking.
> 
> in my point of view Shanks can hold Aokiji and Kizaru and can last long better than Akainu facing WB and WB come to help Shanks after he's done. and we got a panel that a Yonko(WB) took two hits to defeat Admiral(Akainu) not the other way around.



It's nothing to do with thinking whether an Admiral = Yonko or whatever belief you have. It has to do with a basic understanding of top tiers and the powers they've demonstrated so far. It'd be the same thing for any other unbalanced group of top tiers vs top tiers. With the lethality most possess any unbalanced matchup should inevitably lead to a low difficulty match for side with more numbers, e.g. Two Admirals vs Three Yonkou, Two Yonkou vs Mihawk, Dragon, Garp etc etc

Look what happened you say? Well let's see, when Akainu had a free opening on Whitebeard he had a major hole punched through his chest and without plot, that would have been aimed at his head which would have ended him  right there and then. Second time around Akainu does remove most of his head, when Whitebeard exposes himself to attack Akainu. 

Another example: Aokiji gets a free shot at Jozu .... game over. 

Took two hits to defeat Akainu. Jesus Christ ...... you think that scene is in any way applicable in this matchup? Do you think Whitebeard or Shanks are going to get a free shot at an Admiral here especially when there is *fewer *of them? If anything that scene proves my point: a top tier can do immeasurable & devastating damage on anyone when given a free opening which is why you don't give them one. 

Quit getting so defensive. I'm sorry if you're going to say something so egregiously retarded and delusional, you've got to be prepared to back it up when you get called out on that nonsense - this is a messageboard.


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## Kylo Ren (Dec 10, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> It's nothing to do with thinking whether an Admiral = Yonko or whatever belief you have. It has to do with a basic understanding of top tiers and the powers they've demonstrated so far. It'd be the same thing for any other unbalanced group of top tiers vs top tiers. With the lethality most possess any unbalanced matchup should inevitably lead to a low difficulty match for side with more numbers, e.g. Two Admirals vs Three Yonkou, Two Yonkou vs Mihawk, Dragon, Garp etc etc


of course it have to do with it. it depends on how you view them in power level, sure they are consider all top tier but I never consider them equal to each other as you can rank them who's stronger among top tiers they are not just plat equal.


Admiral Kizaru said:


> Look what happened you say? Well let's see, when Akainu had a free opening on Whitebeard he had a major hole punched through his chest and without plot, that would have been aimed at his head which would have ended him right there and then. Second time around Akainu does remove most of his head, when Whitebeard exposes himself to attack Akainu.


it make sense but unlike on what scenario you imagine, I imagine different and choose to follow the manga and it's canon Akainu got free hit and WB survived.


Admiral Kizaru said:


> Another example: Aokiji gets a free shot at Jozu .... game over.


I consider what I think Shanks power and I don't think he will get the same treatment as of what happen to Jozu.


Admiral Kizaru said:


> Took two hits to defeat Akainu. Jesus Christ ...... you think that scene is in any way applicable in this matchup? Do you think Whitebeard or Shanks are going to get a free shot at an Admiral here especially when there is *fewer *of them? If anything that scene proves my point: a top tier can do immeasurable & devastating damage on anyone when given a free opening which is why you don't give them one.


and what you think they going to get one? and maybe you never think of this but what if the Yonko got a free hit? of course they can't if you think Admiral = yonko in which I disagree.


Admiral Kizaru said:


> Quit getting so defensive. I'm sorry if you're going to say something so egregiously retarded and delusional, you've got to be prepared to back it up when you get called out on that nonsense - this is a messageboard.


I didn't get defensive at all just nothing better things to do and I saw your post and as you said this is a messageboard I can also post whatever I want. come on, you never even answer the OP, now tell me who looks defensive on us you're so butthurt about our answer. the right thing to do is correct us why we're so damn wrong but instead well

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## TheWiggian (Dec 10, 2017)

Admirals mid diff this. It will take a while but in the end they take it rather easy without too many injuries.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 10, 2017)

Don King said:


> of course it have to do with it. it depends on how you view them in power level, sure they are consider all top tier but I never consider them equal to each other as you can rank them who's stronger among top tiers they are not just plat equal.



Lethality is significantly much more a critical factor in determining how these matchups will go instead of whatever power differences you perceive there to be. 

A magmafist through the head will likely end you regardless of how strong you are. 



Don King said:


> it make sense but unlike on what scenario you imagine, I imagine different and choose to follow the manga and it's canon Akainu got free hit and WB survived.



You acknowledge that given a free opening Akainu can remove a substantial part of WB's flesh right based on what happened in the manga?

So why for the love of god are you then being so willfully obtuse about this and seeing what that portends just to maintain your pre-held power level biases?



Don King said:


> I consider what I think Shanks power and I don't think he will get the same treatment as of what happen to Jozu.



If Shanks gives Aokiji a free opening then the EXACT SAME THING would happen to him. 

Point though is that Shanks wouldn't be dumb or naive enough to do give Aokiji a free opening and Oda wouldn't ever have Shanks fall in similar way because of the status and respect he commands in the manga. It's why you won't ever see an Admiral/Yonkou/Mihawk ever for example fall to Sugar's powers. 




Don King said:


> and what you think they going to get one? and maybe you never think of this but what if the Yonko got a free hit? of course they can't if you think Admiral = yonko in which I disagree.



Yes if a Yonkou gets a free hit they're also going to substantial if not game-ending damage. But the fucking point of this matchup is that they can't because there's only TWO of them vs THREE Admirals. It's the latter who will get the free openings. 

And again for the hundredth fricking time this has nothing to do with Admirals = Yonkou. Stop looking at everything through _*muh tierlist!! *_and instead look at the specific powers & capabilities each of these fighters have demonstrated!!




Don King said:


> I didn't get defensive at all just nothing better things to do and I saw your post and as you said this is a messageboard I can also post whatever I want. come on, you never even answer the OP, now tell me who looks defensive on us you're so butthurt about our answer. the right thing to do is *correct us why we're so damn wrong* but instead well



Literally what I've been doing for the last few posts.


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## savior2005 (Dec 10, 2017)

admirals mid diff at most. lol at some of u ppl thinking this is nardo or some crap by giving the yonko the win...


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## DA hawk (Dec 10, 2017)

U only need half a brain cell to see the admirals beating the shit out the yonkou here!

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## savior2005 (Dec 10, 2017)

DA hawk said:


> U only need half a brain cell to see the admirals beating the shit out the yonkou here!


unfortunately, there seems to be a shortage of brain cells on this forum

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## Gohara (Dec 10, 2017)

The Yonkou win in my opinion as either of them are individually capable of besting 2 Admirals while the other Yonkou bests the other Admiral.  I do think that 2 Admirals are capable of besting some Yonkou but I don't think that applies to the top Yonkou.  Even if it's Current Akainu either of them best Akainu individually.  Even with Garp, 3 Admirals, and Sengoku The World Government didn't want to match up against 2 Yonkou consecutively so I don't see 3 Admirals besting 2 Yonkou in the same match up.

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## Gohara (Dec 10, 2017)

"If Shanks gives Aokiji a free shot, the same thing would happen to him that happened to Jozu"

But the same thing didn't even happen to Doflamingo when he gave Aokiji a free shot, and Shanks is significantly superior to Doflamingo.

Akainu has decisively the most impressive one shot ability amongst the Admirals, and an ill and significantly battle worn Yonkou has withstood several techniques from Akainu.

If the top Admiral hasn't even one shotted a significantly disadvantaged Yonkou then it makes it less convincing that any Admiral can do the same to a fully healed Yonkou.

Plus one of the Yonkou can simply match up against Akainu to prevent Akainu from getting any free shots in, and the other Admirals don't have the same level of one shot ability that Akainu does.

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## Somewhere (Dec 10, 2017)

Honestly if we take away the fact WB is sick than i could see him and shanks winning this otherwise, I am not that sure about it.


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## Yuki (Dec 10, 2017)

Admirals cleanly win.

One Yonko may be able to handle two Admirals for an extended amount of time (Like a yonko commander can stall a single admiral.) but not as much as an admiral can stall a yonko. Sooner or later the 2v1 match up will be too much and then the yonko dies horribly laving one yonko to fight all 3 in which he loses far worse than the other one did.

Mid dif.

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## Mr. Good vibes (Dec 10, 2017)

We all been here long enough to know how folks gonna respond plus this thread has been done way too many times with no new feats from any of these characters.

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## Gohara (Dec 10, 2017)

Well I'm not sure that it's entirely fair to assume that the same exact scenario with Aokiji would play out against a fully healthy Old Whitebeard.  His physical skills including reaction time are not around the same level as usual in that Arc.  So whether or not Aokiji would even successfully connect Ice Ball in such a scenario is questionable.  Furthermore didn't Aokiji use Ice Ball as Whitebeard was in the middle of swinging his Bisento in the general direction of the Marines?  Aokiji wouldn't necessarily have that advantage in such a match up.  Although it's a possibility if Kizaru is able to occupy Whitebeard enough prior to that.

But to answer your question anyways, if Aokiji and Kizaru are able to pull that combination off successfully and assuming that Akainu is occupying Shanks enough then in theory it could be successful for the Admirals.  But then again that also assumes that a fully healthy Old Whitebeard wouldn't be able to react more quickly.  And even then, a significantly disadvantaged version of Old Whitebeard's character was shot in the head with Lava and withstood it.  So even if we assume all of those points, it's not necessarily an automatic victory for the Admirals.  But again, whether or not those points can be assumed in my opinion is questionable.

As for your other question, I'm not sure that Kizaru is fast enough to not only dodge all of Shanks' slashes but also Akainu's techniques that are coming from behind him.  If we assume that Akainu's lava without Haki wouldn't do anything to Kizaru then it's a possibility if Akainu doesn't use Haki but then that lessens the offense of his techniques since they're not being enhanced with Haki.  But that would still require Kizaru to basically match up on par with or at least hold off Shanks, which I'm personally not convinced that he can.  Old Rayleigh suggests that if he were in his prime he would also be able to help the protagonists against the other characters in the Sabaody Invasion.  Which if that's true, then Prime Rayleigh seems to doubt Kizaru's ability to hold him off successfully.  And although it involves some speculation, I'm of the opinion that Shanks is superior to Prime Rayleigh.  But again, to answer your question anyways if such a combination were successful to the point that Shanks wouldn't be able to block or dodge the lava then Shanks would be required to withstand it.  But again, a significantly disadvantaged Yonkou has withstood several such techniques from Akainu.  So I think that Shanks would be able to do that and more.

I think that if Aokiji were a 99.99 while Akainu was a 100, Akainu wouldn't have been capable of even moving at all after their match up.  Yet Jinbe stated that Akainu chose to spare Aokiji, implying that had Akainu wanted to he could have finished off Aokiji.  And it's not just Akainu being exceptional even for an Admiral, but especially even more so when it comes to one shot ability.

As for the other Admirals having the ability to one shot, well sure basically any character is capable of head shots, so when I discuss one shot ability I'm excluding head shots otherwise basically every character in the series has a comparable level of one shot ability.  If 3 Lord Jacks matched up against 2 Admirals, I don't think that any Admiral => Yonkou fan would agree that the Yonkou Commanders win that match up.  But I mean, using the same type of reasoning 2 of them could hold off the Admirals while the other one lops off the heads of each Admiral.  Or if it's 3 Marcos, 2 hold off the Admirals while the other Marco stabs the Admirals in the brain.  Or if it's 3 Lord Katakuris, 2 hold off the Admirals while the other Lord Katakuri sends Mochi through the Admirals' bodies.  Or if it's 3 Beckmans, 2 hold off the Admirals while the other Beckman shoots the Admirals in the brain.  Jozu can do the same, hitting them in the brain and/or breaking their necks.  Vista can lop their heads off.  So on and so forth.  Of course, just because all of those points would be true with that same type of reasoning doesn't invalidate said type of reasoning.  This is more of a separate point.  The other points in this post basically address my thoughts on the match up and how I think that the Yonkou might be able to avoid those scenarios.

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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 10, 2017)

Gohara said:


> "If Shanks gives Aokiji a free shot, the same thing would happen to him that happened to Jozu"
> 
> But the same thing didn't even happen to Doflamingo when he gave Aokiji a free shot, and Shanks is significantly superior to Doflamingo.



You really are the master of the false equivalences and shitty comparisons aren't you?

What's the next inanity you'll entertain us with Gohara? What about how Aokiji letting the SH's go back on Long Ring Island proves that he couldn't actually defeat them all then?




Gohara said:


> Akainu has decisively the most impressive one shot ability amongst the Admirals, and an ill and significantly battle worn Yonkou has *withstood *several techniques from Akainu.
> 
> If the top Admiral hasn't even one shotted a significantly disadvantaged Yonkou then it makes it less convincing that any Admiral can do the same to a fully healed Yonkou.
> 
> Plus one of the Yonkou can simply match up against Akainu to prevent Akainu from getting any free shots in, and the other Admirals don't have the same level of one shot ability that Akainu does.



Withstood?

Having your innards melted away and half your face evaporated off and ploughing on through sheer willpower for a short period thereafter isn't what a sane non-hackish person would classify as withstanding something. These are permanent, irreversible life-ending injuries ..... not injuries that people "withstand". I mean the first one arguably alone guaranteed WB's death right there and the second at the very least sealed it so if these are the victories you want to champion to downplay the lethality of the Admirals attacks and to wank the Yonkou then go ahead but I'm confident most of the non-hackish OL see through your prism of BS here.  


Oh yeah, before I forget ...... Of course this is all IMHO.

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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 10, 2017)

what about C3 vs non-sick WB + Shanks


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## Daisuke Jigen (Dec 10, 2017)

Weiss said:


> what about C3 vs non-sick WB + Shanks


Won't make a difference, the moment one of the C3 get an opening, the fight is going to be over very fast.

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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 10, 2017)

Jigen said:


> Won't make a difference, the moment one of the C3 get an opening, the fight is going to be over very fast.


Im assuming non-sick WB is basically = Primebeard

can C3 really defeat Primebeard + Shanks ?


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 10, 2017)

Weiss said:


> what about C3 vs non-sick WB + Shanks



No difference at all. 

Like I said before to Don Espada it's not about _*muh powerlevelz *_but about numbers, abilities and matchups. Having a free *lethal *top tier to roam about and attack when they want essentially makes any contest a low difficulty win for that side, e.g. 2 Admirals vs 3 Admirals, 3 Yonkou vs 2 Admirals etc etc


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 10, 2017)

but WB doesnt go down right away even to attacks that should be lethal

and that was old sick WB


tbh I reaaally have trouble believing 2 admirals can just kill Primebeard (or Roger) in a 2v1 and both walk away


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## Daisuke Jigen (Dec 10, 2017)

Weiss said:


> Im assuming non-sick WB is basically = Primebeard
> 
> can C3 really defeat Primebeard + Shanks ?


IMO, Akainu should be on the same level as Prime Rayleigh (or at least Prime Sengoku), and the Admirals aren't too far behind him, so yes.


Weiss said:


> but WB doesnt go down right away even to attacks that should be lethal


Are you referring to the part where he lost half his head? If so, he didn't die straight away, but the moment Akainu tore off half his head, Whitebeard was a dead man walking. He had minutes left at best.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 10, 2017)

Weiss said:


> but WB doesnt go down right away even to attacks that should be lethal
> 
> and that was old sick WB
> 
> ...



Each one of those attacks on it's own probably rendered his life over though ..... it's just kept going on through sheer willpower and because he didn't at that point care about living on - all he cared about was saving Ace and letting his crew escape no matter what became of him.


Assuming WB has the same mindset here (happily prepared to die to take out his enemies) then perhaps you'd need three lethal attacks to put him down for good. Though I don't think that changes anything ..... Akainu performing three magmafists at his convenience when the moment is right isn't exactly a heavy expenditure of effort on his part, considering what we know he's capable of.


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## savior2005 (Dec 10, 2017)

Weiss said:


> but WB doesnt go down right away even to attacks that should be lethal
> 
> and that was old sick WB
> 
> ...


Prime WB isn't some God or some Jiren of One piece. altho he's above everybody else, that doesn't mean he can take on multiple top tiers by himself, especially top tiers that are extremely lethal, such as the C3.

Yes, WB and Roger are above everybody in One piece. But wtf have they done to even make you think that they can take on 2 top tiers? Oda has pretty much made it clear that the top pirates are the yonko, and the top marines are the Admirals. The only ppl decisively above them are WB, Roger, and Garp. But they are not so above them that they can take them 2v1. 

In 1v1, Prime WB is beating anybody bar Roger, no ifs or buts, no debate. That's what makes him and Roger stand out. The fact that 1v1, nobody can beat them, other than roger/wb themselves. None of the C3 nor the yonko will be beating Primebeard in a *1v1* fight, that's what makes PrimeBeard so great. But its just not the same in a 2v1 fight.

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## Dayscanor (Dec 10, 2017)

I would give it to the Admirals, but only because it's old WB. Had it been prime WB, the Yonko would win, prolly.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 10, 2017)

Yonkou die. 

Aokiji distracts Shanks, Akainu meigous him in the chest. If shanks turns around to stop Akainu, Aokiji grabs him and hits him with ice time. Fuck all Shanks can do about it. 

If whitebeard trys to bulldoze through kizaru to help shanks he gets a laser in the back or Kizaru just snipes a distracted Shanks.

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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 10, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yonkou die.
> 
> Aokiji distracts Shanks, Akainu meigous him in the chest. If shanks turns around to stop Akainu, Aokiji grabs him and hits him with ice time. Fuck all Shanks can do about it.
> 
> If whitebeard trys to bulldoze through kizaru to help shanks he gets a laser in the back or Kizaru just snipes a distracted Shanks.




On a positive note mate, I suppose despite some of the depressing responses on here, it still represents some progress from the Primebeard defeating Three Admirals days.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 10, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> On a positive note mate, I suppose despite some of the depressing responses on here, it still represents some progress from the Primebeard defeating Three Admirals days.




Those days were dark.

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## DoctorLaw (Dec 10, 2017)

Admirals should take this honestly high diff maybe.


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## Yuki (Dec 10, 2017)

Primebeard and Kaido can maybe push it to high dif depending on what Kaido's "Invincibility" really means.

Primebeard and Roger may be able to take the admirals down with them but they are not surviving.


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## Gohara (Dec 11, 2017)

@ Admiral Kizaru.

Okay, so how is it a false equivalency?  And wouldn't comparing Jozu and Shanks be a false comparison to begin with?

As for your other point, I'm not sure why you're being so defensive.  Withstanding and tanking are not necessarily the same thing, you make it sound like that's how it's being portrayed when all that was said is that Whitebeard's character withstood it.  Which his character did because even with many other wounds his character was still able to match up against other characters.  Akainu's techniques are being portrayed in the posts of Admiral => Yonkou fans as being capable of one shotting Yonkou or comparable to that.  When the only Yonkou that we've seen Akainu use those techniques against can withstand several of them and still be able to match up against other characters despite being ill and significantly battle worn.  I agree that Akainu's techniques are amazing but some of those posts are giving Akainu's techniques feats that they don't have.

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## Gohara (Dec 11, 2017)

Suggesting that Whitebeard's character was basically going to be incapacitated from Akainu's techniques only is not necessarily unreasonable but it's still speculation.  And even if that were the case, Akainu's techniques are not the only ones that Whitebeard's character withstands so why would we only give that credit to Akainu's techniques?  And even if that were the case, Whitebeard's character withstands Akainu's techniques prior to the one that melts off part of his face.  And even if for some reason we assume that previous techniques from Akainu would incapacitate Whitebeard's character and if we for some reason set aside all the other wounds throughout the Arc it's still a significantly disadvantaged version of that character.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 11, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Admiral Kizaru.
> 
> Okay, so how is it a false equivalency?  And wouldn't comparing Jozu and Shanks be a false comparison to begin with?
> 
> As for your other point, I'm not sure why you're being so defensive.  Withstanding and tanking are not necessarily the same thing, you make it sound like that's how it's being portrayed when all that was said is that Whitebeard's character withstood it.  Which his character did because even with many other wounds his character was still able to match up against other characters.  Akainu's techniques are being portrayed in the posts of Admiral => Yonkou fans as being capable of one shotting Yonkou or comparable to that.  When the only Yonkou that we've seen Akainu use those techniques against can withstand several of them and still be able to match up against other characters despite being ill and significantly battle worn.  I agree that Akainu's techniques are amazing but some of those posts are giving Akainu's techniques feats that they don't have.



Akainu hit Whitebeard with Two Attacks.

A basic Ass Magma Palm thrust to the chest.

And a Meigou to the head.

Whitebeard partially dodged Meigou which is why only a PART of his head was destroyed.

Akainu is more then capable of killing Whitebeard with One well Placed attack as shown by Meigou. Would that neccesarily happen in this fight? Perhaps not but the Admirals have the overwhelming advantage. The Admirals dont need to oneshot shanks or whitebeard to win this fight easily.

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## Seraphoenix (Dec 11, 2017)

Is this the WB who can't go 5 mins without getting a heart attack? Without plot he dies quickly.

Then it's Shanks vs 3 admirals and I don't see anyone besides EoS Luffy and EoS Teach beating that combo, as Oda was originally going to make Yami Teach stronger than all 3 admirals. He then gave him the Gura.

Also this one shot thing neglects haki. I would imagine that Shanks has CoO near healthy WB that avoided over 100 attempts on his life by Ace. Tagging him will be a lot harder than some think. Especially given how he blitzed Akainu before anyone could notice (inb4 dramatic entry).

In addition CoA should protect from df abilities. Shanks' sword for instance was not burned by Akainu's magma. It's not a stretch to say it can protect the body in the same manner.

Akainu took off half of WB's face because of his weak CoO and CoA at that point. Ordinarily that attack would not have hit or even if it did armament would have been able to negate the effects.

TLDR: WB at MF is not a good battledome character as he gets a heart attack after the first 5 mins and without plot, an admiral would go for a headshot. They then gangbang Shanks.

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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 11, 2017)

no this WB wont get a heart attack and its arguable that heart attack happened because of the Squardo stab


if thats still not enough then use Primebeard who was = Roger


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## Mr. Good vibes (Dec 11, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *Akainu hit Whitebeard with Two Attacks*.
> 
> A basic Ass Magma Palm thrust to the chest.
> 
> ...



I feel we don't bring up this fact nearly enough in fact I believe this is the first time I've heard this kind of framing for Akainu performance against WB when this is the same tired argument meant to downplay him and the admirals.


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## Sherlōck (Dec 11, 2017)

Admirals wins. 

Akainu is the only top tier who beat another top tier in the manga in a straight 1v1. Arguably as strong as Prime Garp after his fight against Aokiji. As I think he will be Luffy's final opponent (after Luffy beats BB) Akainu can beat Shanks 1v1.

Kizaru & Aokiji beats WB mid difficulty(Prime or Old).


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 11, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Arguably as strong as Prime Garp after his fight against Aokiji. As I think he will be Luffy's final opponent (after Luffy beats BB) Akainu can beat Shanks 1v1.


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## savior2005 (Dec 11, 2017)

Weiss said:


>


nothing wrong with that really. Why does the old gen's top marine have to be stronger than the new gen's top marine? If Luffy/BB can equal or surpass Prime WB/Roger, Why can't akainu at the very least match Prime Garp? Why would Oda have Prime Garp NOT be surpassed by someone, there is no benefit in having him the strongest marine of all time. Coby, i doubt we will ever see him at Prime Garps level.


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## Sherlōck (Dec 11, 2017)

Weiss said:


>



??????


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## Gohara (Dec 12, 2017)

@ Tale.

The point is basically the same though, how do we know that such a scenario would just as easily if not more so create openings?  We have a good idea of his character's skills, yes, but specifically while ill and in most cases significantly battle worn.  As you mentioned, Marco alludes to the idea that Whitebeard's character would normally have no issue dodging Squardo.  How much quicker is his character's reaction time normally?  We can't rightfully be sure, but we still know that it's on a different level.  Which means that the feats in that Arc don't necessarily translate to that scenario.  And again, even assuming all that were the case who's to say that his character doesn't still dodge the lasers right before they hit the head?  And again, even assuming that were the case part of his head was melted off and he was still able to match up against other characters.

Would you mind clarifying your point on Marco?  You mention how Marco says that prior to Squardo wounding Whitebeard's character but wouldn't that suggest that his character's illness is part of why Squardo was able to create that wound?  So why wouldn't being fully healthy be a factor?  Also, I don't consider the Admirals to be around the same level as the Yonkou.  If it were 2 Shanks for example then I can see how 1 Yonkou would be so occupied that it would create more openings.  Knowing that you rank the Yonkou and the Admirals are around the same level I can see why you're making the arguments that you are.

That brings up the question of if we've even seen Akainu's techniques without Haki?  Many characters used Haki Pre Time Skip without us knowing it because Oda didn't start consistently emphasizing it until Post Time Skip.  Outside of that I would still bring up the other points in my previous post in the discussion but we're already discussing them in the other parts of the posts.  As for Akainu turning the battlefield into lava, are you referring to him raining lava or using Awakening?  We don't yet know anything about his Awakening skills i.e the range of them and what not.  We also don't know the location of the match up in question.  As for Akainu raining lava characters were still able to match up against other characters even with Akainu raining down lava in that Arc.  It also depends a lot on the match up dynamics.  Which Yonkou are matching up with which Admirals?  Is Akainu the one standing around while the other Admirals are occupying the Yonkou?  Would 2 Admirals be able to occupy 2 Yonkou to such a degree that Akainu would have free rein to do something like that uncontested?  I personally don't think that the Admirals can generally stand toe to toe with the Yonkou and as such all the openings that you think would be created are not necessarily things that I agree with.

Ah, I couldn't remember how many wounds Akainu creates in that Arc outside of it being multiple wounds.  But the idea that they would have incapacitated Whitebeard's character is speculative, especially the first wound that Akainu creates.  And again even if that were the case a fully healthy version of Whitebeard's character should be able to withstand significantly more than what his character can withstand with those disadvantages.  Of course in very specific circumstances Akainu can melt off a character's face assuming that said character's Haki doesn't prevent it like how Marco can stab a character in the brain in those same circumstances.

@ Doflamingo.

But that didn't happen with Meigou as Whitebeard's character withstands that and many other techniques and still matches up with other characters and in the thread's match up we're discussing fully healthy Yonkou, so one of my points is that if Meigou didn't one shot a significantly disadvantaged version of a Yonkou why would everyone have to automatically agree that it would do so against a fully healthy Yonkou?  Again in very specific circumstances I'm not disagreeing that Meigou could melt a character's face off.  But that requires very specific circumstances and multiple assumptions to be correct such as an Admiral being able to occupy a Yonkou to such a degree that they create that type of opening as well as the Yonkou still not being able to react quickly as well as Haki skills.  I mean if 1 Marco can occupy Shanks then another Marco can stab Shanks in the brain but I doubt that you think that it would be that easy, why?

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 12, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Tale.
> 
> The point is basically the same though, how do we know that such a scenario would just as easily if not more so create openings?  We have a good idea of his character's skills, yes, but specifically while ill and in most cases significantly battle worn.  As you mentioned, Marco alludes to the idea that Whitebeard's character would normally have no issue dodging Squardo.  How much quicker is his character's reaction time normally?  We can't rightfully be sure, but we still know that it's on a different level.  Which means that the feats in that Arc don't necessarily translate to that scenario.  And again, even assuming all that were the case who's to say that his character doesn't still dodge the lasers right before they hit the head?  And again, even assuming that were the case part of his head was melted off and he was still able to match up against other characters.
> 
> ...



i think your underestimating the advantage multiple fighters bring to the table.

if my little brother and say a clone of my brother both attack me with a knife im getting stabbed. despite the fact in a 1v1 i would beat the shit out of my brother. 

The gap between Whitebeard and the Admirals is no where near enough to stop himself from getting beat down in a 2v1. Now do i think Whitebeard or Shanks are getting one shot in this fight no but whats important is that the admirals have the power to do so. which means any hit WB or Shanks take is going to do significant damage. 

which over time accumaletes  to whitebeard and Shanks getting there assess kicked.

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## Gohara (Dec 12, 2017)

But that's where our differences in opinions of how the Yonkou and the Admirals come into play, if I agreed that they're all around the same level I might agree with your view on the thread's match up but I rank the Yonkou a level superior to the Admirals.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Sherlōck (Dec 12, 2017)

Don't lie Gohara. You put Admirals in same level as Yonko Commanders. That's two level below Yonko & their FM's.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 12, 2017)

personally I always thought old healthy WB (or Primebeard) would take on 2 ~admirals via CoA defense and tanking the second ones attacks if necessary

rather then dodging


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 12, 2017)

Tale said:


> It's not speculative. It's reasonable to think that someone would eventually die with a hole that size in their same, same for a hole that size in their head. If you would like to argue that a healthier Whitebeard would have survived in spite of those injuries, feel free to do it. _Stating the possibilities does not constitute an argument for the conclusion you're supporting in this thread._



You're new here but unfortunately for us this is just classic Gohara and the reason why a lot of us folks don't bother to engage with his blatant intellectual dishonesty and hackery. 

I mean he offers nothing but baseless speculation about Shanks and Whitebeard to wank them, one of which you excellently refuted at the start: "_It's possible that Whitebeard is fast enough to dodge such combination moves"_.

Yet he has the temerity to say it's "speculation" to believe that a guy will die from a massive hole in the centre of his chest or half his face missing. Go figure ehhh. 



Weiss said:


> personally I always thought old healthy WB (or Primebeard) would take on 2 ~admirals via CoA defense and tanking the second ones attacks if necessary
> 
> rather then dodging



CoA defense isn't a panacea that's going to entirely stop an attack as lethal & powerful as a magmafist from Akainu though. 

I mean, it may mean that Akainu can't penetrate with his fists (no homo) as deep or have as large an impact as it did during MF but it's still going to do considerable damage. Akainu may need three or four hits instead of two to end WB but again it's not a massive expenditure of effort on his part hence why the difficulty doesn't change. 

As @Donquixote Doflamingo says above, you underestimate what multiple elite fighters means in the context of a fight and instead of trying to visualise & conceptualise how these things would work in an actual battlefield, you're foolishly looking it through a purely tierlist & power levels lens.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 12, 2017)

Gohara said:


> But that's where our differences in opinions of how the Yonkou and the Admirals come into play, if I agreed that they're all around the same level I might agree with your view on the thread's match up but I rank the Yonkou a level superior to the Admirals.



i put Zoro a level above Sanji but that doesnt stop 1 Sanji from kicking Zoro in the back of the head while he fights another Sanji.

but unlike Sanji kicking Zoro in the back of the head. WB or Shanks eating a Laser to the skull or a Magma punch is going to end the fight.

let me be VERY NICE HERE and assume for the sake of discussion that the gap between WB and the Admirals is similar to the gap between Rob Lucci and Jyabura. A pretty fucking big gap that is. 

Give Two Jyaburas the Damage OutPut required to severely damage or maim Rob lucci in one attack and the end result should be clear. Rob Lucci dies a horrible death.

same shit here just the gap between the admirals and wb/shanks is not that big


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## Sherlōck (Dec 12, 2017)

Weiss said:


> personally I always thought old healthy WB (or Primebeard) would take on 2 ~admirals via CoA defense and tanking the second ones attacks if necessary
> 
> rather then dodging

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 12, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


>


stfu


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## TruestArtXI (Dec 12, 2017)

Admirals win… Common sense tells me 2 is bigger than 3 for top tiers and not a huge gap

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sherlōck (Dec 12, 2017)

Weiss said:


> stfu


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## Gohara (Dec 12, 2017)

@ Tale.

The point that I'm referring to is that The Marineford War Arc doesn't necessarily represent an accurate portrayal of how combinations like that would work against a fully healthy version of Whitebeard's character.  There's a lack of empirical evidence one way or the other so I'm not disagreeing that the opposite of your argument is also not based on any empirical evidence.  And to your point on several levels, a fully healthy version of that character could very well be several levels superior in reaction time.  Until we see such a version of Whitebeard's character in a relative comparison to the one in The Marineford War Arc, any reference of details of his character's skills would mostly be speculative outside of simply that his character's skills while fully healthy are significantly superior.  Does that mean that the reaction time would be sufficient enough to avoid those combinations?  Evidence wise I don't know.  No one does yet.  We also don't know if 2 Marcos could successfully use such a combination.  Keep in mind that we have yet to see a Yonkou vs. an Admiral where another Admiral sneaks up on the Yonkou.  You mention that Aokiji was able to take advantage of an opening but that wasn't because Whitebeard's character was being held off, having to focus on 2 characters represents a different set of match up dynamics as opposed to clearing a battlefield that has a lot of characters on it.  So that makes for even less empirical evidence.

The point on Akainu's Haki is that, can we rightfully assume that his offensive skills would be as efficient without Haki as they are in The Marineford War Arc in which he was presumably using Haki?  Even without Haki those skills are likely still amazing and all that, but it's still a point worth considering.

I would think that whichever Yonkou is matching up against Akainu and another Admiral would attempt to prevent Akainu from aiming lava all around the battlefield if they thought that it would be detrimental to their own strategies.  Of course in your mind an Admiral would be able to successfully hold off a Yonkou as Akainu is doing that, but again that's where the difference in the ranking of the Yonkou vs. the Admirals comes into play.  There's no empirical evidence to reference either way.  Also, with Akainu standing out even for an Admiral I would think that the Yonkou would attempt to have 1 of them match up against Akainu and the other 1 match up against 2 Admirals but again that depends on match up dynamics.  And Seraphoenix brings up a good point as well.  Didn't Shanks block Akainu's lava with Haki?  Lava should melt whatever it touches but it didn't do so when Shanks blocked it, no?  I might be misremembering though.

I don't disagree with your point on part of a character's face melting off, if we were talking about normal Humans.  But we're not talking about a normal Human, comparing to normal circumstances it doesn't make a lot of sense that Whitebeard's character was able to match up against any characters at that point.  Those types of wounds would usually immediately incapacitate a character, but when discussing super Humans that type of logic flies out the window.  And as for holes in character's bodies, there are countless occasions in Manga/Anime where characters have withstood those types of wounds without being incapacitated.  So it's not that you're listing unreasonable possibilities but I also don't think that they're givens either.  So in my opinion it seems unfair to automatically give Akainu credit for being able to incapacitate that version of Whitebeard's character just because it would do so against most normal characters, especially when those are far from being the only wounds that his character withstands throughout that Arc.  But I'm not trying to downplay Akainu's skills either.  If I were to rank offensive skills his character would rank pretty high from what we've seen so far, maybe even top 3-5.

You're right, a possibility does not lead to any clear and automatic conclusions.  You say that almost as if you think that I'm attempting to portray it in such a way, but I'm not.  On the contrary I made it clear from the beginning that it's opinionated.  If you're looking for an argument that can rightfully be made based on empirical evidence and/or skills, I don't think that you'll find any on either side.  One of the key points is whether or not an Admiral can hold off a Yonkou so another Admiral can get free shots in, and since we have yet to see a fair match up between the Yonkou and Admirals where neither side has any disadvantages neither side has any actual references that can rightfully be made.  All these points that you're making about a lack of empirical evidence should be directed at those making their arguments sound as if they're factual.

More puzzling I think is that in the numerous other threads with multiple characters vs. an Admiral, those same teams don't get that same benefit of the doubt that the Admirals get.  For example if Jozu is holding off Fujitora, what's preventing Vista from stabbing Fujitora in the head?  There's no less empirical evidence for that, yet some of the same posters who consider it a given that 1 Admiral can hold off 1 Yonkou while the other Admiral gets a free shot in would not agree that Vista and Jozu could do a comparable combination against an Admiral.  Even though Vista has been known to hold off and even score a point against Mihawk and Jozu has been known to hold off Aokiji for more than a chapter.

Well nah, I wouldn't compare it to Luffy vs. an average Vice Admiral.  But there's enough of a difference in my ranking of the Yonkou and the Admirals where I'm not at all convinced that an Admiral would successfully hold off a Yonkou to the point that another Admiral would get any clear or especially multiple free shots.  And because a significantly disadvantaged Yonkou can withstand a combined several techniques from Admirals I'm not convinced that those free shots would give the Admirals an edge against a fully healthy Yonkou.  At least not before the Yonkou incapacitate the Admirals.

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## Gohara (Dec 12, 2017)

@ Doflamingo.

But any character is capable of head shots.  What if instead of simply kicking Zoro Sanji wraps his legs around Zoro's neck and breaks his neck?  What if it's 2 Vistas vs. 1 Mihawk, and while 1 Vista is holding off Mihawk, the other Vista lops off Mihawk's head?  Does this mean that 2 Vistas defeat 1 Mihawk with no to low difficulty?  Or what if it's 2 Lord Katakuris vs. an Admiral.  While 1 Lord Katakuri holds off an Admiral, the other Lord Katakuri seeps Mochi into the Admiral's body.  Does that mean that 2 Lord Katakuris can defeat 1 Admiral with no to low difficulty?  Even though I don't entirely agree with the stance, I could at least understand it if that logic were consistently being used in all the forum's match ups.

I don't think that the gap between Lucci and Jabra is anywhere near as significant as you're implying.  But that's for another thread.

@ Admiral Kizaru.

Feel free to point out any examples of the intellectual dishonesty and claims about Whitebeard's and Shanks' characters in which I posted zero reasoning.  And you acknowledge that there are many fans who think that the Yonkou are > the Admirals.  So I'm not sure why you would appeal to popular opinion.  Although I acknowledge also that the majority thinking that the Yonkou > the Admirals doesn't necessarily make it factual.

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## Gohara (Dec 13, 2017)

Several levels?  Nah I don't think that the difference is that insane.  I do think that on average they're a league superior but not several.  And as for why, it's the consistency in which below Yonkou level characters have relatively even confrontations with Admirals.  It's the consistency in which the Yonkou garner reactions that we've never seen for any of the Admirals or at least not to the same degree.  And if the Admirals are indeed around Yonkou level, it brings up the question as to why Sengoku or anyone on their team would even think about allowing The Red Hair Pirates to leave Marineford.  Since they would have had at least 5 Yonkou level characters present vs. the 1 that is Shanks.  And the question as to why Aokiji would allow Doflamingo to escape Punk Hazard in the same Arc that he talks about how Doflamingo can hinder the world.

I don't remember having any discussions with you in which you addressed those reasons outside of the Jinbe example and I don't recall being unable to address any of the points being made, and furthermore those points demanded such standards of evidence that it would seemingly hinder any argument that I've seen favoring the Admirals more than the Jinbe example.  And since there are so many more examples outside of the Jinbe example, even if we excluded it there would still be a lot of examples favoring the Yonkou and none that I can think of that would favor the Admirals and also meet the standard of evidence being demanded for the Jinbe example.

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## IllmaticKingC (Dec 17, 2017)

Either of the admirals individual low-mid diff Whitebeard and those who are left team up to beat shanks

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## drew8324 (Dec 17, 2017)

Its an extreme diff for the Yonko. 

If WB was not previously injured he would've taken Akainu life.  Now Shanks can handle about two admirals. So while Shanks is up taking Aokiji & Kuzan,  WB finish Akainu with a high diff and joins the battle with Shanks.  Now that WB is injured (cause he just High diffed Akainu)  he'll die helping Shanks fight Kuzan & Borsalino but before he dies he stalls enough so another of the admirals die.  

So in the end its 1 admiral vs a semi-tired yonko. So yeah Yonko win

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## Bernkastel (Dec 18, 2017)

Doesn't matter whether you think Yonkou > Admirals,there's no way in hell 3 admirals are losing to 2 yonkou...even if they're weaker individually the gap isn't nowhere near enough to give the yonkou the win.
Admirals win mid diff.

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## Kylo Ren (Dec 18, 2017)

We'll see about that.


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## drew8324 (Dec 18, 2017)

if injured old sick _Whitebeard_ was > _Akainu_(the _*"STRONGEST"  *_Admiral) why can't a _Yonkou_ in *prime age* (_Shanks_) that's _*really strong *_(held off_ Kaidou_) stall TWO Admirals for enough time so _Whitebeard_ solos _Akainu_ and joins _Shanks_, they take an 1 Admiral a piece, _Shanks_ finishes his, _Whitebeard_ dies but injures his,_ Shanks_ an injured now Yonkou > an Admiral injured now. 

That how the yonko win it makes simple logical sense

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## DoctorLaw (Dec 18, 2017)

^ Akainu would realistically have done an insane amount of damage to WB like you said. Old WB is the strongest yonkou, but with the injuries he'd get, he would be slower, and physically weaker. His DF is still strong as shit and can probably help a ton, but an admiral just needs to get in a couple of good hits to put him down. They're all faster than he is at this point and they all have sharp shooting attacks to spam him from a distance. I don't see why the admirals would just get close and let him give them the Oven treatment. Shanks gets ganked shortly after, since he's tired and the other admiral's injury isn't enough to help Shanks cause.


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## Orca (Dec 18, 2017)

Weiss said:


> Im assuming non-sick WB is basically = Primebeard
> 
> can C3 really defeat Primebeard + Shanks ?



If it’s Primebeard then I definitely think the pirates have a good chance. WB was nerfed so much at Marineford. In his prime he must have been so much stronger. While yes Admirals are extremely lethal, one blow front WB would blow the wind of you as well.

But as far as the op goes, the Admirals should win. Old WB showed lots of weaknesses in his old age that I can easily see two Admirals exploiting.

Shanks gets cancelled out by Akainu.

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## drew8324 (Dec 18, 2017)

Luffee said:


> If it’s Primebeard then I definitely think the pirates have a good chance. WB was nerfed so much at Marineford. In his prime he must have been so much stronger. While yes Admirals are extremely lethal, one blow front WB would blow the wind of you as well.
> 
> But as far as the op goes, the Admirals should win. Old WB showed lots of weaknesses in his old age that I can easily see two Admirals exploiting.
> 
> Shanks gets cancelled out by Akainu.



Are you trying to imply Akainu=Shanks?? That doesn't sound logical in nearly any case you make

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## drew8324 (Dec 18, 2017)

Anyone arguing Akainu was on the upper hand against WB in MF is blatantly lying to themselves or does not understand context. WB literally had to be INJURED SICK & OLD for Akainu to hold as well as he did (which was impressive)  against WB.  Now if WB was not injured previously there is nothing to say WB loses or < Akainu.  Now that is an OLD,  SICK, & INJURED Yonko. So if we place a Fresh Yonko in PRIME (Shanks)  at MINIMUM they should be able to hold off TWO admirals (if not gain the slight upper hand) until WB finishes his fight goes to help out his fellow Yonko. Than WB dies fighting 1 out of 2 admirals while Shanks finishes his. Than now we have only 1 admiral left & 1 yonko.  Both are injured however since Yonko>Admiral. The Yonko win.

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## DoctorLaw (Dec 18, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> Anyone arguing Akainu was on the upper hand against WB in MF is blatantly lying to themselves or does not understand context. WB literally had to be INJURED SICK & OLD for Akainu to hold as well as he did (which was impressive)  against WB.  Now if WB was not injured previously there is nothing to say WB loses or < Akainu.  Now that is an OLD,  SICK, & INJURED Yonko. So if we place a Fresh Yonko in PRIME (Shanks)  at MINIMUM they should be able to hold off TWO admirals (if not gain the slight upper hand) until WB finishes his fight goes to help out his fellow Yonko. Than WB dies fighting 1 out of 2 admirals while Shanks finishes his. Than now we have only 1 admiral left & 1 yonko.  Both are injured however since Yonko>Admiral. The Yonko win.



The only problem with this is the fact that WB, even in his old age, was the strongest Yonko. He’s always been portrayed as the powerful Yonko. If he didn’t die, there would be no unstable NW, the marines wouldn’t have moved their HQ, and BB wouldn’t have been able to rise to power. He also had a second wind moment against Akainu during their fight, got blood lusted off of his incompetent lackey’s death, and he caught Akainu completely off guard. Only WB could play Jenga with an admiral’s intestines, other Yonko could not replicate that feat.

The admirals and the Yonko are all in the same tier. WB was a monster, Shanks would do about as good against two admirals as Luffy with a sword and one arm would do fighting two Luffy’s with laser beams and ice attacks. 

I personally think Shanks with two arms is slightly stronger than Akainu, but the reality is he only has one arm. Makes it that much more difficult to fight people on your level when they gang up on you

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## A Optimistic (Dec 18, 2017)

Admirals win with no difficulty whatsoever. Any other anwser is incorrect.

For example:

Kizaru gets in a swordfight with Shanks like he did with Rayleigh.

Akainu and Whitebeard clash like they did in Marienford.

That literally leaves Aokiji to sneak behind Shanks and freeze him like he did for Aokjii. Then Kizaru and Aokiji kill Shanks easily.

Then all 3 Admirals kill Whitebeard.

The Admirals won't even get injured once.

I don't think some of you comprehend how difficult a 3 versus 2 fight for the 2 fighters to win.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## A Optimistic (Dec 18, 2017)

And before anyone asks, I would say the same thing if it was 3 Yonkou versus 2 Admirals.


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## DoctorLaw (Dec 19, 2017)

Ava said:


> Admirals win with no difficulty whatsoever. Any other anwser is incorrect.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...



No.


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## A Optimistic (Dec 19, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> No.


Good rebuttal, you sure showed me boss.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## longtimelurker91 (Dec 19, 2017)

Tale said:


> 3 Admirals beat 1 Admiral and a half.
> 
> There's no evidence Shanks is stronger than any single Admiral (despite assertions to the contrary) and Marineford Whitebeard's condition was so bad he was giving Akainu potentially lethal openings shortly after their fight began. Whoever the Admirals choose to 2 vs 1 is going to get destroyed, because their abilities can punish mistakes so heavily, and I doubt anyone thinks a single Admiral can't stall long enough against either Whitebeard or Shanks to let the other two do their job.


I thought it was well established that Yonkou > Admiral. And Shanks is supposed to be one of the strongest characters in the OP universe right now. Especially since Luffy's going to fight him closer to EOS after BM and Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Gohara (Dec 19, 2017)

@ Tale.

Allow me to post a reply in a few days as there are a lot of points that I want to address and the next couple days are pretty busy days for me at work.


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## Orca (Dec 19, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> Are you trying to imply Akainu=Shanks?? That doesn't sound logical in nearly any case you make



I do favour Shanks slightly over Akainu but why wouldn’t it make sense?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## DoctorLaw (Dec 19, 2017)

Ava said:


> Good rebuttal, you sure showed me boss.



What would be the point in arguing your point with my usual paragraphs? You've stated that WB and Shanks would get *no diffed *by the admirals, and the admirals would take 0 damage. I know opinions are subjective, but you're completely objectively wrong, and you seem to have your mind made up.


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## A Optimistic (Dec 19, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> What would be the point in arguing your point with my usual paragraphs?


Then why quote me?


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## DoctorLaw (Dec 19, 2017)

Ava said:


> Then why quote me?



To say “No, no one agrees with that.” I specifically said that I wasn’t going to write paragraphs to explain why since you pointed out no one could argue your point.


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## A Optimistic (Dec 19, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> To say “No, no one agrees with that.” I specifically said that I wasn’t going to write paragraphs to explain why since you pointed out no one could argue your point.


You speak for everyone now? 

And it's okay, we all know you keep quoting me because you want Daddy's attention.


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## Gohara (Dec 21, 2017)

@ Tale.

Before I address each of those points there are some points that I would like to make.

One of the most consistent points that I see you making in these discussions is how even despite all of the opposing points they still don’t prove that the Yonkou are > the Admirals.  Like how here you are pointing out that those confrontations are relatively brief and as such on their own don’t guarantee equality between both sets of characters.  But if we had full fledged one on one match ups between those sets of characters then we wouldn’t need any evidence, we would have full fledged proof.  I consider those match ups points in favor of the Yonkou being > the Admirals but not full fledged proof.  It’s not like it’s either proof or nothing, you know?  And while I will address each of those points, the point is more so the pattern.  Many of the questions that you’re asking make sense but the more that pattern is consistent the more plausible the conclusion is.  Like how when doctors make a diagnosis or investigators look for patterns to conclude their investigations.  Those conclusions can still be wrong. They still might not be proven without a doubt.  If there are questions that can be asked it’s likely not full fledged proof, but that doesn’t mean that the conclusion isn’t plausible.  Nonetheless established patterns are still significant in determining plausible conclusions (and the idea that all match ups turned out that way is just a coincidence seems unlikely in my opinion) Which is why the consistency of it is significant.  And even excluding the pattern it’s still a lot more than what we have on the contrary.  To say that such points aren’t proof that the Yonkou are > the Admirals is preaching to the choir.  I more than anyone else that I have seen on this forum have acknowledged the lack of proof that we have one way or the other.  I’m simply looking for the most plausible conclusion and from what I’ve seen so far that’s the Yonkou > the Admirals in my opinion.

And even assuming that I agreed with all of those points on each of those confrontations (which I don’t), the idea that all of those things just so happened to lead to even confrontations seems too consistent to be a coincidence.  And the idea that it’s basically a coincidence seems unlikely.  Which is also a significant point.  Assuming that the Admirals are decisively superior to those characters, why is it that Oda never seems to give the Admirals an edge against them in fair one on one match ups?  Oda has had many opportunities to demonstrate the superiority of Admirals over those characters and yet has not done so.  Why?  And if we were to take that same exact approach (the demanding of those standards of evidence) to Whitebeard’s character vs. the Admirals it hinders that example a heck of a lot more than it does those examples.  So why would that match up even be considered a point for the Admirals in the minds of those who think that the Admirals are => the Yonkou?  One can’t rightfully use that match up as a reference of 1 Yonkou vs. 2 Admirals while also demanding such standards of evidence.

And even for the sake of argument we assume that I can’t address any of those points (which I think that I can), again I reiterate that approach is a lot more of a hindrance to the Admiral => Yonkou arguments that I’ve seen than the other way around.  And in that scenario, neither side seems to have any points in their favor that can’t be questioned in a comparable way.  Which would at best put both sides of the argument on equal standing (which of course would only assume that I agreed with all of your points to begin with).  But even in that scenario there would still be a difference.  In that scenario the difference would still be that I’m posing an opinion whereas most of the Admiral => Yonkou statements are being stated as if they’re factual.  Not from you of course.  But the showing of evidence and demand of proof seems relatively one sided.  It would be refreshing to see the Admiral => Yonkou statements (the ones that are being stated as if they’re factual) being posed with evidence that address every possible question that could be posed on the contrary rather than the Yonkou > Admiral statements (the ones that are being stated as opinions) always being the ones asked to meet standards of evidence that would make discussing any match up that we haven’t seen full fledged match ups for rather pointless.

Summary: You say that more arguments are needed.  That might be true, but more so if we're asking for full fledged proof.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that a plausible conclusion can't rightfully be formed with the current evidence that we have.  You think that some or perhaps all of the points aren't all that significant on the basis that you can ask valid questions, and I might agree if those questions and alternate scenarios were all equally plausible but it would be more accurate to categorize them as technically possible in my opinion.  Those points are at least for the most part still the most plausible that I've seen so far, and there are many of them.  I have yet to see a single point on the contrary that offers notable plausibility.  But maybe you have some points to offer that I have yet to see.  But so far you've only questioned opposing arguments so I can't yet comment on yours.  I would be interested to see how they would navigate around the standards of evidence being demanded.

Now to address your points:

*The Yonkou vs. Non-Yonkou Commanders*

I actually beg to differ on the point that we have yet to see the Yonkou match up against characters around that level.  Although there are currently barely any examples, there are still examples.  Ace was consistently bested by a sleeping Whitebeard’s character.  If I remember correctly it’s even implied that Ace is unable to scratch his character in any of those clashes.  And we also have Big Mam rather easily brushing off Gear 4th Luffy who has matched up on par with multiple top Yonkou Commander level characters.  Those match ups do not look exactly as the other match ups in question.  And as for evidence that the Yonkou are superior to the non-Yonkou Commanders, in most cases that is obviously suggested through their ranks.  Most of the characters in question are subordinates of the Yonkou.

*Top Yonkou Commander level characters vs. Admirals*

Kizaru vs. Marco- We mostly agree on that.  But it’s still part of an established pattern.

Aokiji vs. Marco- Agreed.

Jozu vs. Aokiji- If I remember correctly their match up started more than a chapter prior to Aokiji freezing Jozu.  Considering a lack of visible wounds neither seems to have wounded each other in more than a chapter.  Which would suggest that Jozu was matching up on par with Aokiji for more than a chapter.

Doflamingo vs. Fujitora and Aokiji- Which is why I’m saying confrontations rather than match ups.  You mention that Akainu sends Fujitora but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Akainu sees it as all of Dressrosa vs. Fujitora.  Especially since matching up against Doflamingo doesn’t seem to have been the goal of The Marines in that Arc.  Aokiji has a free opportunity to wound Doflamingo but Doflamingo breaks out of the Ice technique.  And not only does Doflamingo show no clear fear of Aokiji but again the idea that Aokiji would allow Doflamingo to escape if there were a significant difference between their skills doesn’t make a lot of sense.  And I’m not sure how your reply to that point really explains why Aokiji would allow Doflamingo to escape.  Aokiji suggests that Doflamingo is insanely exceptional and if he thinks that Doflamingo can significantly change the gears of the world and cause things to go awry then it contradicts Aokiji’s justice, no?  Doflamingo stands for things that Aokiji is against and even allies with a Yonkou, something else that Aokiji is presumably against.  If besting Doflamingo isn’t much of a problem for Aokiji he has no evident reasons for not capturing Doflamingo and many great reasons for capturing Doflamingo.  Again I don’t like making hasty conclusions but nonetheless the most plausible conclusion from what I can tell is that Aokiji at least thought of Doflamingo as capable of putting up a pretty good match up against him.

Akainu vs. Marco- We mostly agree on that.

Jinbe vs. Akainu- Maybe but Jinbe isn’t a top Yonkou Commander.

Fujitora vs. Luffy and Sabo- The idea that Fujitora isn’t being serious and especially less serious than Luffy and Sabo is speculation.

And even if we assume that Prime Rayleigh is as skilled as the Yonkou (which to be fair isn’t unreasonable), even while very rusty he can still match up on par with Kizaru.  And Rayleigh alludes to his prime self being able to fend off Kizaru and still help the protagonists against Sentoumaru, PXs, Kuma, many other Marines, etc.. That comparison is even more significant if we assume that Old Garp is less skilled than the Yonkou which you seem to acknowledge later in that post.  Since Garp’s portrayal is no less if not even superior to Rayleigh’s.

And since most Admiral => Yonkou fans agree that Mihawk is at least Admiral level, there’s also Vista vs. Mihawk.

Summary: I would argue that most of those examples stand and while it's true that none of them are full fledged match ups, the established pattern is significant in my opinion.

*Previous Points*

Well obviously I respectfully disagree that I have not adequately addressed the Caramel, Jinbe, and Supernova points.  I stand by the most recent points that I have made on those topics.  Whether or not you’re convinced is obviously up to you.  I have no problems with your stance either way.

But there’s also Doflamingo who has shown no evident fear of Admirals but is terrified at the idea of Kaidou being angry.  There’s also Jozu groaning simply from Shanks’ presence but nothing like that with the Admirals.  Even though Shanks hadn’t even drawn his sword yet while the Admirals were in the middle of a War.  There’s also Big Mam basically vibrating an Island with Haki.  There’s also Whitebeard’s character and Shanks splitting the skies with Haki.  The aura that they emit physically and from their names seems to be on a different level than the Admirals so far.

But it’s not just their auras.  I would also note these points: The top physical strength feats are from the Yonkou.  The top several Haki feats are from the Yonkou.  The top 2 if not the top 3 Devil Fruits that we’ve seen so far are from the Yonkou.  The top several defensive feats are from the Yonkou. The top 2 most impressive titles are from the Yonkou.

Both of those points represent multiple other established patterns as well.

*The Red Hair Pirates vs. The World Government*

I’ve thought of all of those questions as well but here’s the thing: none of them are anywhere near good enough reasons for The World Government to choose not to best The Red Hair Pirates if they could have decisively done so.  Why?  Because obviously they would have bested half the Yonkou in 1 War.  And if they can do that in 1 War what’s preventing them from simply invading the other 2 Yonkou?  But to answer your questions individually:

-I get that Sengoku respects Shanks, but so what?  Shanks is still a Pirate and piracy is the archnemesis of The World Government.  Besting 2 Yonkou in 1 War would not just be a significant victory against piracy but would arguably even be what turns the tides and wins them the War against piracy.  To not take that opportunity would require some amazing reasons and Shanks being nice for a Pirate certainly doesn’t seem to be anywhere near that amazing of a reason.  Ace is a nice Pirate and that certainly didn’t stop The World Government from wanting to acquire a victory less than what they would get from besting 2 Yonkou Crews in 1 War.

-At that point Marco was the only top Yonkou Commander on that team who isn’t incapacitated.  Compared to at least 5 Yonkou Marco’s skills aren’t substantial.

-To turn the tide against piracy Marineford being destroyed is practically irrelevant.  And 5 Yonkou vs. 1 Yonkou is a relatively one sided match up so unless you’re referring to a lot of Marine foot soldiers being bested I’m not sure what you might be referring to here.

-Again 5 Yonkou vs. 1 Yonkou is a relatively one sided match up, strategy is practically irrelevant.  Heck, that applies a heck of a lot more if you think that 2 Yonkou vs. 1 Yonkou is a relatively easy victory for 2 Yonkou such as what you’re arguing in the case of 1 Yonkou vs. 2 Admirals.  1 Yonkou holds off 1 Yonkou like how you suggest 1 Admiral holds off 1 Yonkou.  While said Yonkou is apparently occupied the other 4 Yonkou easily best the other characters.  Then they team up with the other Yonkou to best the 1 opposing Yonkou.  Or they could do as you’re suggesting in the 1 Yonkou vs. 2 Admirals match up.  2 of the Yonkou best that 1 opposing Yonkou rather easily while 3 Yonkou best all the other characters and with relative ease at that.  Then they all team up and win rather easily.

Summary: Unless there are amazing reasons for The World Government to allow The Red Hair Pirates to escape, the most plausible conclusion is that they at least thought that The Red Hair Pirates would make for a competitive match up.  Something that wouldn't add up if we were talking 5 Yonkou vs. 1 Yonkou.

*Garp And Sengoku vs. Admirals*

While I don’t necessarily agree that Akainu > Garp and Sengoku individually there’s not much point in contesting that because there are a couple other points that are more significant.  One of the points is that if we demand the same standards of evidence that you’re demanding for the above points the evidence that you’re posting here isn’t without questions.  And the other point is that even if it were true that it suggests that Akainu is > Garp and Sengoku individually it doesn’t disagree with the idea that Garp and Sengoku are at least around Admiral level and even less so that they’re at least => Kizaru and Aokiji.

*2 Yonkou vs. 3 Admirals*

It’s true that the Yonkou being > the Admirals doesn’t automatically suggest that 2 Yonkou can best 3 Admirals.  But it’s not a given that it would be as easy as a head shot type of victory.  Shanks has shown that he can block lava with Haki.  Furthermore Kaidou jumped all the way from a Sky Island and remained unscathed.  We don’t even yet know what can get around Kaidou’s durability.  And if another Yonkou can defend against lava with Haki, it’s very reasonable albeit unproven that Kaidou can do the same with his amazing defense and Haki.  Outside of that it depends a lot on how you view the Yonkou vs. the Admirals.  If the Yonkou are a level superior to the Admirals the idea of the Yonkou fending off both Admirals at the same time doesn’t seem unreasonable.  But again even if that weren’t the case I don’t think that it would be that easy to head shot a Yonkou.  It’s also worth noting that we’ve seen 2 vs. 1 match ups that were not won with relative ease even though one of the characters on the team was matching up on par with the opponent, such as Law and Luffy vs. Doflamingo.  So maybe it’s not as easy to perform such combinations as some opposing arguments suggest?  Although I do think that on average 2 Admirals are => 1 Yonkou.  But we’re talking about exceptional Yonkou in my opinion.  

Again, I acknowledge that there’s no full fledged proof either way but nonetheless I have yet to see any points on the contrary that are anywhere near as convincing as those in my opinion.  And if we filter out points based on the standards of evidence that you’re demanding I literally have yet to see any on the contrary.

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## Sherlōck (Dec 21, 2017)

I have nothing but respect who can write 5000 words essay for debating fictional verses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Mr. Good vibes (Dec 21, 2017)

Nothing about this thread requires a post that long.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 21, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> I have nothing but respect who can write 5000 words essay for debating fictional verses.



I have even more respect for someone who actually takes the time to read through it all properly.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Dec 21, 2017)

easy win for the admirals

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## DoctorLaw (Dec 21, 2017)

Ava said:


> You speak for everyone now?
> 
> And it's okay, we all know you keep quoting me because you want Daddy's attention.



It’s common sense. Two yonkou aren’t getting no diffed by 3 opponents. These are some of the strongest characters in the entire series.


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## drew8324 (Dec 21, 2017)

Luffee said:


> I do favour Shanks slightly over Akainu but why wouldn’t it make sense?



Because Yonko>Admirals 
Its fairly simple.



xmysticgohanx said:


> easy win for the admirals


Nani?!? How is it easy, let alone possible if 1Yonko>1Admiral (and some change left over) and there are 2YONKO & 3 ADMIRALS.

In better sense. Lets say an Admiral is '100-105' a Yonko should be around give or take '150-170' now if we have 3 Admirals taking part and 2 Yonko I am gonna assume the Admirals take their number advantage and 2v1 a Yonko while the STRONGEST Admiral holds off the other Yonko. 

Now the problem with that is this. Now 1 Yonko can probably hold themselves from dying from 2 Admirals for a conaidsrable amount of time. While the one Yonko holds thier own against 2 Admirals the other Yonko faces off against the STRONGEST Admiral. Now with the simple scale the Admiral reaches around 100-105, the single Yonko themselves has the Admiral uptake by 45-60 points.(While true the 2v1 scenario the Admirals have a 50ish point advantage over the Yonko the difference is; the Admirals themselves are still 100 however there is a minute loss in points spread between the two as since they are not ONE entity they do no have ALL the benefits of one another. Still keeping the Yonko on the losing end however NOT dwarfing his/her chances of holding up.)
Now the 1v1 scenario, is in numerical favor of the Yonko. As Hypothesized the Yonko in the 1v1 scenario wins however has numerous wounds from such a tough opponent the goes to join his other wounded Yonko to fight the Admirals 2v2. All the Admirals die and one Yonko does in the process however the other Yonko lives.

That's how Yonko > Admirals

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## drew8324 (Dec 21, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> The only problem with this is the fact that WB, even in his old age, was the strongest Yonko. He’s always been portrayed as the powerful Yonko. If he didn’t die, there would be no unstable NW, the marines wouldn’t have moved their HQ, and BB wouldn’t have been able to rise to power. He also had a second wind moment against Akainu during their fight, got blood lusted off of his incompetent lackey’s death, and he caught Akainu completely off guard. Only WB could play Jenga with an admiral’s intestines, other Yonko could not replicate that feat.
> 
> The admirals and the Yonko are all in the same tier. WB was a monster, Shanks would do about as good against two admirals as Luffy with a sword and one arm would do fighting two Luffy’s with laser beams and ice attacks.
> 
> I personally think Shanks with two arms is slightly stronger than Akainu, but the reality is he only has one arm. Makes it that much more difficult to fight people on your level when they gang up on you




If you believe the Worlds STRONGEST Man while SICK, OLD, & INJURED was the ONLY Yonko capable of doing what he did....... You gonna be hurt at Wano & next Arc we see Big Mom being serious.

Like how TF do these people carry titles with the same weight as him and said the only people that can get serious with WB are his other Yonko, than how are you gonna say arguably the strongest Admiral ,who got his ass handed to him in 2 moves, (yes he injured WB as well) and his contemporaries could tuck against other Yonko.

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## TheOnlyOne1 (Dec 21, 2017)

Admirals take this high difficulty. It would take a while for 2 Yonkou's to go down.

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## Nox (Dec 21, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> Because Yonko>Admirals
> Its fairly simple.
> 
> 
> ...



What if I told you:

Admiral level = 100. Allowing accommodation of characters like Old Garp, Rayleigh, Sengoku
Whilst Admiral themselves are 102-105 and Yonko are 102-105 excluding WB who as strongest was 108.
Gorosei who've proven to know more about power levels than fans discussing arbitrary numbers decided to replace Sengoku and Kuzan with Ryokogyu and Issho. This is despite recognizing BB as future successor and danger threats of the [Blocked Domain].
If 150-170 Yonko > 100-105 Admiral is 'real'. Gorosei Replacing 2 Admirals (one being powerful to give Akainu the fiercest of the lot a difficult time) with just 2 Admirals (who people think are weaker than the OG Trio) is a retarded strategy. 
Assume Sengoku+Kuzan = Ryo+Fuji the cavet still remains in Yonko > Admiral. Wouldn't expanding the search for more Admirals serve to bolster their ranks effectively? Its not like WG is broke. 
If you use the arguments Admirals talent is scarce. You'd be confirming the same for Yonko. Beyond the crew and allies an Admiral like a Yonko is about *individual strength*. Its the difference between a beaten up Akainu dominating a Marco led WB-less Pirates or a fresh BB Pirates massacring them.
Admirals are Marines. A faction which trains it operatives as units & in the deployment of tactics when handling opponents. OP fights don't primarily function like video games. Instead its chemistry and arsenal & the synergy that exists between its use.
Still, from your own explanation on average 2 Admirals have nearly the same point differential against 1 Yonko (50) as does 1 Yonko against the strongest Admiral (45-60 =45+60/2 = 52.5).
In the using your numbers 2 Admirals can finish 1 Yonko with the same relative ease 1 Yonko can 1 Admiral since a the 2.5 differential is still an extreme diff fight. Unless the Yonko in the handicap focuses all his efforts in maiming 1 Admiral -(which also leaves him open to get mauled by the other) 2 fatigued Admirals fight 1 relatively fatigued Yonko.
However, for arguments sake lets say the last Yonko was still 150-170. Both Admirals would mathematically have to be less than 75-85 OR 1 Admiral be less than 50% in order for 150-170 Yonko to win. 
Not even a bloodthirsty hits from the WSM with a fruit with so called planetary destruction powers could do this.


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## DoctorLaw (Dec 21, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> If you believe the Worlds STRONGEST Man while SICK, OLD, & INJURED was the ONLY Yonko capable of doing what he did....... You gonna be hurt at Wano & next Arc we see Big Mom being serious.
> 
> Like how TF do these people carry titles with the same weight as him and said the only people that can get serious with WB are his other Yonko, than how are you gonna say arguably the strongest Admiral ,who got his ass handed to him in 2 moves, (yes he injured WB as well) and his contemporaries could tuck against other Yonko.



I’ll level with you and admit I think WB shit stomped Akainu the way he did because Oda wanted WB to go out like a badass. He had that angry moment and completely blitzed someone who has god tier hearing and admiral level CoO. He ate that magma like a champ completely ignoring the damage, when earlier his heart attacks and Kizaru’s beam put him through pain to the point that he had to stop. It was obvious to me that the WB that wrecked Akainu was a throwback WB for a glimpse.

I don’t see how Big Mom or Kaido could blitz Akainu like that and literally bury him within seconds. A top tier was completely dismantled and he couldn’t do a damn thing to stop it. That’s the greatest feat in OP, at least until BB gets his next hype.

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## drew8324 (Dec 23, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> I’ll level with you and admit I think WB shit stomped Akainu the way he did because Oda wanted WB to go out like a badass. He had that angry moment and completely blitzed someone who has god tier hearing and admiral level CoO. He ate that magma like a champ completely ignoring the damage, when earlier his heart attacks and Kizaru’s beam put him through pain to the point that he had to stop. It was obvious to me that the WB that wrecked Akainu was a throwback WB for a glimpse.
> 
> I don’t see how Big Mom or Kaido could blitz Akainu like that and literally bury him within seconds. A top tier was completely dismantled and he couldn’t do a damn thing to stop it. That’s the greatest feat in OP, at least until BB gets his next hype.



True it was a Blaze of Glory however Marco even admitted that was a pale comparison to him in his Prime. So that proved to me (along with how Shanks handled Akainu) that still nonetheless this sick, injured, old, senile, man dismantled a full fledged Admiral (most would say the STRONGEST). Now I do not think Big Mom nor Kaido would do that to Sakazuki. However they would still beat him like not pushing past the lower end of High diff( especially Kaido & Shanks).

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## drew8324 (Dec 23, 2017)

NOX said:


> What if I told you:
> 
> Admiral level = 100. Allowing accommodation of characters like Old Garp, Rayleigh, Sengoku
> Whilst Admiral themselves are 102-105 and Yonko are 102-105 excluding WB who as strongest was 108.
> ...



All I have to say to counter would be.... If Kaido & Big Mom were to fall... Would their be anyone on the sea that could tale that spot that we know of or the people we are unaware?  The World Government held a draft and within a year or two they found TWO people EQUAL (lesser imo, stronger iyo) to the former two admirals. 

Also if you replace the the C3 on scaffold above Ace execution platform with Shanks, Kaido, & Big Mom..... Marineford would've ended much faster

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## drew8324 (Dec 23, 2017)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> Admirals take this high difficulty. It would take a while for 2 Yonkou's to go down.


Nope wrong


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## Nox (Dec 23, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> All I have to say to counter would be.... If Kaido & Big Mom were to fall... Would their be anyone on the sea that could tale that spot that we know of or the people we are unaware?  The World Government held a draft and within a year or two they found TWO people EQUAL (lesser imo, stronger iyo) to the former two admirals.
> 
> Also if you replace the the C3 on scaffold above Ace execution platform with Shanks, Kaido, & Big Mom..... Marineford would've ended much faster



Considering NW is a competition for territory. The other Yonko would expand and WG occupy a fallen Yonko's zone. In the meantime standout Supernovas would grow into Admiral characters and in a year or two after amassing enough resources they'd be a replacement. Supernovas in this case being the most talented young crop of individuals in the story ever. 

OFC since MUM would have most likely eaten Ace & put an end to the Marine sham.


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## Spirit King (Dec 23, 2017)

Shanks is a bad match up so he and sick WB will most probably lose this match up. Make it Big Mom and Prime WB and Yonkou's likely take it extreme diff. Big Mom covers and counters Admirals elemental abilities far better than Shanks does. As both her and WB are stronger than individual Admiral and she especially is a durability tank a war of attrition will occur. Big Mom will cover any defensive whole while WB has by far the greatest destructive capacity.


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## drew8324 (Dec 23, 2017)

NOX said:


> Considering NW is a competition for territory. The other Yonko would expand and WG occupy a fallen Yonko's zone. In the meantime standout Supernovas would grow into Admiral characters and in a year or two after amassing enough resources they'd be a replacement. Supernovas in this case being the most talented young crop of individuals in the story ever.
> 
> OFC since MUM would have most likely eaten Ace & put an end to the Marine sham.



I am one of those who think the Top 4 Supernova do have future Yonko capabilities


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 23, 2017)

Im so glad I made this thread

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## Gohara (Dec 24, 2017)

@ Tale.

While I don’t necessarily agree that the level assumptive factor that goes into many of these points is as much as you do, I don’t necessarily disagree that assumptions can play somewhat a part in some of them.  But it’s still the conclusion that I’ve seen that has the least amount of assumptions in it, and the most reasonable assumptions in it as well.  Every argument ever has some degree of assumption in it.  I’m looking for one that has the least and most reasonable ones in it.  Hence the most plausible conclusion.


*The Yonkou vs. Non-Yonkou Commanders*

Fair enough about Ace.  But about Luffy, while it’s true that Lord Katakuri has still bested Gear 4th Luffy so far it’s still clear that Big Mam’s character’s performance against it is superior.  And with Lord Cracker, he wasn’t really besting Gear 4th Luffy.  He was just not being incapacitated by it.  So at best it might be said that he was matching up on par with Gear 4th Luffy.  Furthermore, there’s still Gear 2nd/Gear 3rd Luffy vs. Fujitora.  Even though both clashes are relatively brief, Big Mam still handles Luffy a lot more impressively than Fujitora.  And anyways, how many examples have we seen in One Piece where confrontations and match ups between two sets of ranks/characters have been even and those characters weren’t around the same level?

*Consistency*

While I see some of your points on the pattern, my question is again if the Admirals are in fact > top Yonkou Commanders why hasn’t Oda demonstrated that in the many confrontations that we’ve seen between them so far?  That’s part of why the pattern is significant.  And I’m not entirely sure how your post would invalidate these examples as patterns, if they all met the standards of proof that you’re asking for they wouldn’t simply be an evident pattern.  Again they would be proof.  If doctors had proof they wouldn’t need to base their conclusions on patterns sometimes.  If lawmakers had proof in every case there would be no point in identifying patterns.  Questions can still be asked.  “How do you know that symptom A isn’t technically from something else?”.  Many different symptoms can be from many different things and yet those symptoms are still used to determine a pattern.  If doctors already had proof they wouldn’t need to ask what the symptoms are.  That doesn’t necessarily mean that they started their premise with their conclusion being assumed to begin with.  Top Yonkou Commander vs. Admiral confrontations/match ups are symptoms.  And if around a handful of clashes count as little to nothing then I would be very intrigued to see what evidence there is for the Admirals being => the Yonkou.  Assuming that there are new points that I have yet to see.

My point isn’t that confronting and matching up evenly in relatively brief clashes counts the same as if they did so throughout a full fledged match up.  The latter would be proof, the former is simply evidence.  I don’t think that we need that much to create a plausible conclusion.  But nonetheless it’s that many opportunities that Oda has had to give the Admirals a leg up and that many that he has not done so.  Is it possible that it’s a coincidence?  _Technically_ yes, although it would be a pretty extreme one.  And you mention that these sets of evidence still aren’t enough to justify ranking the Yonkou > the Admirals.  But I don’t necessarily see anything in your post that would invalidate the reference of patterns as good pieces of evidence.  And whether we call it minimal evidence or significant evidence it’s still a lot more than what I’ve seen on the contrary.  Despite your points, even the ones that I agree are fair, I don’t see how they address my point that it’s not only a plausible conclusion but the most plausible one.

Summary: Even though you make some good points they still only explain why the conclusion isn’t proven and/or some of the points aren’t perfect, not why the conclusion isn’t plausible and/or points significant.

*Luffy/Sabo vs. Fujitora*

I don’t agree that Luffy isn’t top Yonkou Commander level.  There might be some that have an edge against him but not to the point that I consider them a level or league superior or anything like that.

I don’t disagree that Fujitora was talking (and there are characters in One Piece that laugh while matching up seriously all the time), but I’m not sure why that would mean that he wasn’t matching up seriously.  All I see here is evidence that Luffy wasn’t going all out and none that Fujitora wasn’t.  And even if I agreed that Fujitora wasn’t going all out, there’s a difference between not matching up seriously and not going all out.  The former seems to imply toying.  I would also note that Fujitora was panting.  If that counts as a disadvantage for Sabo then it counts as one for Fujitora, no?

As for what Sabo says, the translations that I see are:

Either Fujitora or Sabo (not entirely clear): This is what I’m talking about!

And the other translation is Fujitora saying:

Fujitora: Very good!! // I’d be disappointed if you didn’t do this much!!

And there’s still the lack of evidence that Sabo was being more serious than Fujitora.  Sabo does accuse Fujitora of playing dumb but that was about Fujitora pretending to do what The World Government would want him to do.  It doesn’t necessarily translate to Fujitora holding back against Sabo.

*Rayleigh vs. Kizaru*

Kizaru states that Rayleigh was holding him back, and while it’s true that Rayleigh was panting it’s also true that Rayleigh scrapes Kizaru at some point in the match up.  And even if we give Kizaru the slight edge because of Rayleigh panting, that’s why I’m saying matching up on par rather than being 100% even or superior.

Well yeah, that might involve assuming that Prime Rayleigh isn't Pirate King level.  Which is pretty likely albeit unproven.  And I’m not saying that Prime Rayleigh would succeed in helping them, just that he would be able to fend off Kizaru and still lend them aid.  Whether or not that aid would be enough for them to win that match up isn’t part of the point.  Although since you mentioned it, it’s worth noting that Rayleigh likely thought that it would be successful hence him even bringing it up.

*Dressrosa*

As long as you’re not suggesting that Akainu thought that Fujitora would be able to best every character on Dressrosa combined I have no issues with that point.

As for Doflamingo, I don’t mean to imply that you said things would go awry.  I’m simply saying that Aokiji is a good guy who wants good things for the world.  He wants to do what’s right.  We don’t necessarily need to know all that many if any specifics about his views.  We already know enough in my opinion: he’s a good guy who wants good things for the world.  Doflamingo is an antagonist who wants to cause havoc in the world.  Even looking at the surface their values clash significantly.  Aokiji obviously knows that allowing Doflamingo to escape also means that he might as well be allowing Doflamingo to do those things that cause havoc in the world.  Not many assumptions go into that if any at all, and if they are assumptions they’re easily the most reasonable ones.

*Other Points*

Doflamingo- If the Admirals are around Yonkou level, then there are 5 characters in the army superior to Doflamingo.  And if Doflamingo bests 1 Admiral or is giving them enough issues they can always summon more Admirals.  And if I remember correctly Law specifically states that Kaidou would wipe the floor with Doflamingo.  Not Kaidou, Lord Jack, and all of the crew combined.

Shanks- He encounters a lot of characters inferior to Jozu and not all of them groan.  But we still know that Jozu is > those characters.  Furthermore I actually agree that Pre Time Skip Akainu is superior to Jozu.  But that doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s a league of difference between them.  And as for knowing King’s Haki, if they don’t then this is just another edge that the Yonkou have.  And Haki is basically One Piece’s version of willpower/spirit power.  This is why almost every character who knows it is of quality superior to almost every other character in the series.

*Feats*

Big Mam easily overpowering Gear 4th , one of the physically strongest characters in his own right.  And of course having one of the best physical strength feats in the series at barely more than a toddler one shotting a legendary Giant character (compared to Whitebeard’s character who didn’t incapacitate John Giant even while using his Devil Fruit).  Kaidou jumping off of Sky Island and not even being scratched.  A whole plot point revolving around the near impossibility of scratching Big Mam.  Whitebeard’s defensive feats in the war speak for themselves.  And then there are the top several Haki feats.  As for Devil Fruits, the ones with the top hype and portrayal so far are the Quake and Darkness Fruits.  As for your points on titles, again if there were titles for all of them we would have proof rather than patterns and evidence.

*The World Government vs. The Red Hair Pirates*

Well yeah, any time that they have the opportunity to basically win the War against piracy or at least turn the tide significantly in their favor is always a perfect time to do so.  But it’s not a destroy Pirates at all costs type of mentality.  It’s a destroy Pirates at little to no cost type of mentality.  They were in position to best The Red Hair Pirates without much of a problem.  Assuming that the Admirals are all basically around the same level as Shanks.  And besides that, if it means winning the War against piracy or at least turning the tide significantly in their favor that’s the perfect reason to have that type of mentality.  As I said I’ve thought of those questions before.  But none of them seems to lead to any type of reason that would even come close to allowing a free opportunity to best 2 Yonkou Crews escape.

Up for grabs between characters inferior to the Yonkou sure, and those characters are attempting to become Yonkou anyways.  Plus The World Government thought that executing a Yonkou Commander would discourage Pirates so what if they executed 2 Yonkou in the same War without much of a problem?  Either way besting a Yonkou Crew is a heck of a lot better for The World Government than not doing so.

Sengoku taking responsibility was about allowing Whitebeard’s and Ace’s bodies to get into the hands of Pirates.

Marine: What?!! Our victory is not complete until we hold their heads high for the world to see!
Sengoku: Very well!!
Marine: ?! // Fleet Admiral, sir...?!
Sengoku: Seeing as it's you... I will allow it. Red Hair... I will take the responsibility.

Even thinking about reasonable speculation for why Sengoku would do that, I simply can’t think of a single reason that would possibly make enough sense as to why Sengoku would intentionally allow a Yonkou Crew to escape knowing that they could best them without much of a problem.

*2 Yonkou vs. 3 Admirals*

No disrespect taken.  But obviously I respectfully disagree with that interpretation.  Again this goes back to how you view the level of difference in skills between the Yonkou and the Admirals.  And there’s no point in discussing how substantiated the points are since we’re basically discussing that with the above points.

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## Captain Altintop (Dec 26, 2017)

Akainu vs Old WB
Aokiji + Kizaru vs Shanks

Individually, Aokiji and Kizaru are high ( _high_ ) diff. opponents for Shanks.
Both should beat him with low ( _mid-high_ ) diff, in less than 2 hours. They immediately join Akainu vs Old WB fight 
which btw could endure for 24 h / 1 d or even more on its own.
Akainu should be still pretty fine at this point just like Aokiji and Kizaru.
WB gets instantly threesomed by C3 and Admirals take this pretty easily without any of them being seriously damaged.


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## g4snake108 (Dec 27, 2017)

I am not going to read through walls of text and just going to say that the admirals should win.

What difficulty remains to be seen,but assuming old,but healthy WB and shanks,the c3 may go down to being 2 admirals.


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## Zoro20 (Jan 29, 2018)

Akainu and aokiji team up  against WB
Kizaru fights shanks
then aokiji and akainu joins kizaru to destroy shanks
you need to add another top tier in WB group so they can win


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## drew8324 (Jan 29, 2018)

Zoro20 said:


> Akainu and aokiji team up  against WB
> Kizaru fights shanks
> then aokiji and akainu joins kizaru to destroy shanks
> you need to add another top tier in WB group so they can win




Kizaru would die 1v1 vs Shanks and either Aokiji or Akainu falls to Whitebeard. It Ends with an Injured Shanks High diffing an Injured Admiral.


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## Zoro20 (Jan 29, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> Kizaru would die 1v1 vs Shanks and either Aokiji or Akainu falls to Whitebeard. It Ends with an Injured Shanks High diffing an Injured Admiral.


i'm confident enough that kizaru can push shanks to high-extreme diff  (I believe yonko >= admirals yonko are stronger but only slightly )
while the two others beats whitebeard , even if its whitebeard its so hard to fight two top tiers at the same time
so after aokiji and akainu finishes whitebeard  they still have energy to tag team injured shanks
but this is just imo


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## TheWiggian (Jan 30, 2018)

The Admirals destroy the WB and Shanks here. They literally have another monster on their team that is on all their general lvl. Meaning while either WB or Shanks will be busy with 1 Admiral the other 2 Marines steamroll the remaining Yonkou.


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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

Whitebeard takes on 2 admirals, Shanks beats 1 admiral.

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## Kai (Jan 30, 2018)

Only the strongest Admiral can take on a Yonko 1v1 imo, however I still see that fight going either way with someone like Shanks. Additionally the strongest single character in the series who has always been a Yonko will not lose to any Admiral.

That being said Yonko win very high diff. Whitebeard even after getting stabbed, still crushed Akainu in two moves and came out on top. He would ultimately lose against two Admirals but is more than capable of holding his own for a while. Shanks defeats Aokiji or Kizaru high diff based on his portrayal imo.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 30, 2018)

No way in hell Shanks takes down a Admiral before Whitebeard gets killed.

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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 30, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> No way in hell Shanks takes down a Admiral before Whitebeard gets killed.



At any rate Shanks is losing to Akainu and it's 50/50 at best for him against Aokiji or Kizaru. 


Have I already said how much of a stomp this is for the Admirals?

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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

What's stopping Admirals to take down a Yonko in the new world by simply cornering them in 2 v 1, like Garp and Sengoku did with Shiki.

We've been asking this question for so long and we didn't get a simple answer.

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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 30, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> What's stopping Admirals to take down a Yonko in the new world by simply cornering them in 2 v 1, like Garp and Sengoku did with Shiki.
> 
> We've been asking this question for so long and we didn't get a simple answer.



--flaming--

Do you think it's as easy as the WG/clicking their fingers and getting two Admirals facing of against a Yonkou on an isolated island (PH style) in a fresh one vs one, with no interference?

Out of all the dumb arguments you guys use to maintain your "Yonkou > Admiral" tier list, that's probably the dumbest of them all.

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## Sherlōck (Jan 30, 2018)

During Roger's time Admirals were dispatched to fight against them Roger/Shiki.

Current Yonko system makes that difficult.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 30, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> What's stopping Admirals to take down a Yonko in the new world by simply cornering them in 2 v 1, like Garp and Sengoku did with Shiki.
> 
> We've been asking this question for so long and we didn't get a simple answer.



I dont know said Yonkous crew might have a problem with multiple admirals trying to kill there captain.


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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

Both Garp (who took  an Admirality offer) and Admiral Sengoku went to face with Roger while Roger wasn't the PK at the moment. They never captured him.

Shiki with his full fleet was able to corner Roger. But somehow Marines weren't able to do that.



And to think that Marines made that exception only for pre-PK Roger, and they never went to face with a Yonko in the new world in a 2 v 1 battle.


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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I dont know said Yonkous crew might have a problem with multiple admirals trying to kill there captain.


So Yonko crew has actually a fighter that's capable of dealing with an Admiral?  It comes to Yonko FM = Admiral.

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## Sherlōck (Jan 30, 2018)

Fanfic Pre-PK Roger again.

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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

Roger wasn't the PK when he fought with Shiki, and when Garp and Sengoku went to face with him.


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## Sherlōck (Jan 30, 2018)

And why does that matter?

Unless becoming PK suddenly grants you an item that you can use to level up it doesn't mean much. Did Roger get such an item in Raftel Erkan?

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 30, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> So Yonko crew has actually a fighter that's capable of dealing with an Admiral?  It comes to Yonko FM = Admiral.



Um Yea Yonkou crews usually have 3 top tiers. 

So yea said top tiers can fight a Admiral. 

Admirals>FM. 

You think a Admiral needs 8+ hours to kill Base Luffy lmao

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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

To think that Roger didn't become more powerful during the 3 years timeline after his battle with Shiki...

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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> You think a Admiral needs 8+ hours to kill Base Luffy lmao



How do you know they would need less or more time, while they never face with Luffy in a serious way?

Fujitora's Fierce Tiger didn't do any damage to Luffy. He was taking shots from Aokiji and Kizaru BEFORE TIME-SKIP, you seriously believe Current Luffy couldn't take enough damage from them and gets knocked out easily?

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 30, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> How do you know they would need less or more time, while they never face with Luffy in a serious way?
> 
> Fujitora's Fierce Tiger didn't do any damage to Luffy. He was taking shots from Aokiji and Kizaru BEFORE TIME-SKIP, you seriously believe Current Luffy couldn't take enough damage from them and gets knocked out easily?



Easy. Doflamingo beat the shit out of law in less then a hour. 

Admirals>Doflamingo

Law>Base Luffy 

2+2=4-1=3 Quick Maths

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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Easy. Doflamingo beat the shit out of law in less then a hour.
> 
> Admirals>Doflamingo
> 
> ...


Luffy was using G4, G3, G2, all of his techniques. I don't know what you're talking about.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 30, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Luffy was using G4, G3, G2, all of his techniques. I don't know what you're talking about.



At the start of his fight he was.

Hes just been running around avoiding Katakuri for the last few hours.

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## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> At the start of his fight he was.
> 
> Hes just been running around avoiding Katakuri for the last few hours.


Because he is extremely persistent. He can't even use G4 or G2 anymore. He is just running away like a plucked chicken. Admirals already failed to put him down 2 years ago, what makes you think they would have an easier time with a much more powerful Luffy in the same situation?

Completely baseless.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 30, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Because he is extremely persistent. He can't even use G4 or G2 anymore. He is just running away like a plucked chicken. Admirals already failed to put him down 2 years ago, what makes you think they would have an easier time with a much more powerful Luffy in the same situation?
> 
> Completely baseless.



All im seeing is excuses. 

Katakuri still hasent put down Luffy and he has not been fucking around. 

Luffy survived the Admirals because he had High tiers and top tiers protecting him. Same situation my ass

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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 30, 2018)

Kai said:


> Whitebeard even after getting stabbed, still crushed Akainu in two moves



Whitebeard "crushed" Akainu the same way Law "wrecked" Doflamingo.

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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 30, 2018)

There's no way the Emperors can win.

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## Gohara (Jan 30, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> What's stopping Admirals to take down a Yonko in the new world by simply cornering them in 2 v 1, like Garp and Sengoku did with Shiki.
> 
> We've been asking this question for so long and we didn't get a simple answer.



Better yet, if the Admirals are around Yonkou level, they had victory against piracy given to them on a silver platter when The Red Hair Pirates challenged them.  There are many reasons that I can think of for the Yonkou being > the Admirals.  But easily one of the most convincing ones is that 6-7 Shanks besting 1 Shanks and his subordinates should be relatively easy at most if not a no difficulty match up.  So there's basically nothing that can justify to me why Sengoku wouldn't take that opportunity.  Being nice?  Sengoku is nice but not so nice that he had no issue executing a family member of his best friend.  And said character isn't even a Yonkou, so too nice to take an easy opportunity to win the war against piracy?  I'm not buying that.  Sengoku didn't want too much havoc in Marineford?  That was something that they were willing to take on to best 1 Yonkou Crew.  But they don't want to take it on in order to defeat piracy?  I'm not buying that.  The only thing that Sengoku agreed with out of respect was allowing the protagonists to take the bodies of Ace's and Whitebeard's characters.

I simply can't think of a single reason that would make sense of Sengoku not taking that free opportunity.  Every single reason that I've seen suggested combined isn't even a fraction of what would make a justifiable reason in my opinion.

But to each their own.  I get and respect that not everyone is going to agree on Yonkou vs. the Admirals.

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## Bohemian Knight (Jan 30, 2018)

Admirals fucking steamroll

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## Luke (Jan 30, 2018)

Admirals win pretty easily. 

Aokiji and Akainu can put up a great fight against Whitebeard and Shanks, and as others in this thread have pointed out, only a moment's distraction in a top tier fight can spell your end. Kizaru can casually attack the two Yonkou from long range while they're occupied with the other two Admirals. There's just no way the Yonkou can win this, IMO.

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## Samehadaman (Feb 1, 2018)

With a first mate about to go down, Chopper tanking Big Mom slaps, and Kaido as next major arc villain, while Oda's Admirals based on his favorite iconic actors are still in there waiting for their moment in the series... You'd think followers of Goharianism would start toning down the supposed gap and entertain thoughts that maybe Lord Tamago doesn't fodderize Akainu, but no.

Then again, when Fujitora had to block Luffy and Zoro attacks Goharians declared him weaksauce. When Jinbe tossed angry Big Mom out of a boat and left, no comment.

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## drew8324 (Feb 1, 2018)

Zoro20 said:


> i'm confident enough that kizaru can push shanks to high-extreme diff  (I believe yonko >= admirals yonko are stronger but only slightly )
> while the two others beats whitebeard , even if its whitebeard its so hard to fight two top tiers at the same time
> so after aokiji and akainu finishes whitebeard  they still have energy to tag team injured shanks
> but this is just imo



I give the Yonko more prestige than that as you have described. I see the Admirals able to hold their own however ultimately lose to a Yonko after tough battle but not getting past a High(low) diff. 

Shanks I see as > Oldbeard so he most definite in my opinion is mopping Kizaru no higher than the top of Med diff since he isnt even the strongest of the admirals.

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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 1, 2018)

Samehadaman said:


> With a first mate about to go down, Chopper tanking Big Mom slaps, and Kaido as next major arc villain, while Oda's Admirals based on his favorite iconic actors are still in there waiting for their moment in the series... You'd think followers of Goharianism would start toning down the supposed gap and entertain thoughts that maybe Lord Tamago doesn't fodderize Akainu, but no.
> 
> Then again, when Fujitora had to block Luffy and Zoro attacks Goharians declared him weaksauce. When Jinbe tossed angry Big Mom out of a boat and left, no comment.


Well, that was a severely weakened Big Meme, plus Big Meme sent Jimbei flying earlier without much of a problem. Besides, it's not like Jimbei is weak, he easily tanked an attack from a fresh Akainu and was only defeated by Akainu later on because he was protecting Luffy. As for Chopper, he had to use his absolute best defensive form.
I'm not sure what Katakuri potentially losing has to do with anything. We've already seen First Mates match and even overpower Admirals after all.
But ofc, this is all just imo. : p

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## Zoro20 (Feb 1, 2018)

@drew8324  this is your opinion  so I respect it

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## Muah (Feb 1, 2018)

Shanks team mid diff.

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## Muah (Feb 1, 2018)

Ask yourself a question. Can marco ben beckman and katakuri beat aokiji and akainu?

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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 1, 2018)

Samehadaman said:


> With a first mate about to go down, Chopper tanking Big Mom slaps, and Kaido as next major arc villain, while Oda's Admirals based on his favorite iconic actors are still in there waiting for their moment in the series... You'd think followers of Goharianism would start toning down the supposed gap and entertain thoughts that maybe Lord Tamago doesn't fodderize Akainu, but no.
> 
> Then again, when Fujitora had to block Luffy and Zoro attacks Goharians declared him weaksauce. When Jinbe tossed angry Big Mom out of a boat and left, no comment.



 


I know it's only February but this has got to be post of the year.

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## Gohara (Feb 1, 2018)

Samehadaman said:


> With a first mate about to go down



Maybe but not necessarily relevant.



Samehadaman said:


> Chopper tanking Big Mom slaps



Less than a slap, and again, Pre Time Skip Luffy has done the same against an actual punch from Sengoku.



Samehadaman said:


> and Kaido as next major arc villain



Maybe, but again, not necessarily relevant.  We have no idea if an Admiral will even be the main antagonist of an Arc.  Even more contrary to the point, Luffy doesn't match up against main antagonists Pre Time Skip in order of power level.  Moriah is arguably the weakest main antagonist that Luffy matches up against in Paradise.



Samehadaman said:


> while Oda's Admirals based on his favorite iconic actors



Maybe but again not necessarily relevant.



Samehadaman said:


> Then again, when Fujitora had to block Luffy and Zoro attacks Goharians declared him weaksauce. When Jinbe tossed angry Big Mom out of a boat and left, no comment.



Fujitora is far from weak and is amazingly skilled.  Suggesting that Gear 3rd Luffy is physically superior because he pushes him back is only a comparison of 1 aspect.  Fujitora is a level superior to Gear 3rd Luffy when comparing all of their skills.  There's no nitpicking in attempt to downplay Fujitora.  It has nothing to do with tiers and/or power levels.  If I suggest that Kizaru has superior speed to Big Mam's character, am I automatically nitpicking and trying to downplay the Yonkou?  Obviously not.  It's okay for characters like the Yonkou, the Yonkou Commanders, and the Admirals to not be the most skilled in every aspect.

And if Fujitora was significantly exhausted in that match up and splashed with sea water, I would think nothing of Gear 3rd Luffy overpowering his character.  There would be nothing to comment about.  I don't think much of Lord Katakuri knowing King's Haki because I suspect that the Admirals know how to use King's Haki as well.  It's nothing against the Admirals.

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## Quipchaque (Feb 5, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Easy. Doflamingo beat the shit out of law in less then a hour.
> 
> Admirals>Doflamingo
> 
> ...



Katakuri is also stronger than Doflamingo and Law yet he is still unable to k.o. Luffy in 8 hours so... what is your point? Besides it is arguable that Base Luffy with future sight and his improved stamina would lose against Law. It´s possible but the gap is a lot smaller now.

OT: the admirals win. There is no way that 2 top tiers beat 3... the gaps are not big enough for that.

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## trance (Feb 11, 2018)

3 top tiers > 2 top tiers

team one wins

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## Raiden34 (Feb 11, 2018)

redrum said:


> 3 top tiers > 2 top tiers
> 
> team one wins


2 real top tiers > 3 nigh top tiers

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## DoctorLaw (Feb 12, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> 2 real top tiers > 3 nigh top tiers



Aokiji got awfully close to soloing WB in the beginning before WB took any damage. He froze him, and even got about 5 feet from his face before Jozu helped him out. If a top tier needs help from a high tier against an opponent, that opponent is a very legitimate top tier.

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## Raiden34 (Feb 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Aokiji got awfully close to soloing WB in the beginning before WB took any damage. He froze him, and even got about 5 feet from his face before Jozu helped him out. If a top tier needs help from a high tier against an opponent, that opponent is a very legitimate top tier.


MF Whitebeard isn't a true top-tier. Especially post-Squardo stab. His illness appeared close to the MF battle, regular Old Whitebeard could sense Ace in his sleep.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Milkydean (Feb 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Aokiji got awfully close to soloing WB in the beginning before WB took any damage. He froze him, and even got about 5 feet from his face before Jozu helped him out. If a top tier needs help from a high tier against an opponent, that opponent is a very legitimate top tier.


WTF did I read?
You actually think Aokiji would have done shit to WB had Jozu not interferred?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 12, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> WTF did I read?
> You actually think Aokiji would have done shit to WB had Jozu not interferred?



Akainu and Kizaru both hit Whitebeard when they got close to him.

What are you talking about?


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 12, 2018)

Whitebeard is strong, but he got hit so many times by so many people that its ridiculous to think Aokiji couldn't have hit him when he's a couple feet away from him.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Akainu and Kizaru both hit Whitebeard when they got close to him.
> 
> What are you talking about?


So Teach's crew and these marines are top-tiers too?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 12, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> MF Whitebeard isn't a true top-tier. Especially post-Squardo stab. His illness appeared close to the MF battle, regular Old Whitebeard could sense Ace in his sleep.



This just in guys the WSM and Gate Keeper to the Throne of the Pirate King is not a top tier

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 12, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> This just in guys the WSM and Gate Keeper to the Throne of the Pirate King is not a top tier




I've seen some dumb shit over my time on the OL but I think this one ranks right up there at the top. Not surprise it's Erkan responsible for it. I would have thought him getting rekt'd so badly on MF after literally asking Stephen on twitter about Mihawk's WSS title and getting caught would have taught him some humility. I guess not.  



You know why he said it though ...... the mental gymnastics these people have to go through to prop up their tierlists.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 12, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> I've seen some dumb shit over my time on the OL but I think this one ranks right up there at the top. Not surprise it's Erkan responsible for it. I would have thought him getting rekt'd so badly on MF after literally asking Stephen on twitter about Mihawk's WSS title and getting caught would have taught him some humility. I guess not.
> 
> 
> 
> You know why he said it though ...... the mental gymnastics these people have to go through to prop up their tierlists.



I am sure he will come up with some cheap excuse like WB was sick and hurt  

Cause its not like Roger had a incurable disease THAT WAS LITERALLY KILLING HIM and became Pirate King. 

Cause that never happend


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 12, 2018)

personally I think theres defo a difference between_ just old _WB and MF sick WB, especially post-stab

I would put it like this:

- old WB in 1v1 vs Akainu wins and lives afterwards, but probably with some .. medium damage taken ?
- old sick MF WB post-stab going against Akainu 1v1 I honestly think _dies afterwards no matter what_ from the damage (to the head or otherwise) .. the only question is Akainus state (dead ?)

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Quipchaque (Feb 12, 2018)

Weiss Lucifer said:


> personally I think theres defo a difference between_ just old _WB and MF sick WB, especially post-stab
> 
> I would put it like this:
> 
> ...



Yeah I think the same. Imo Akainu´s damage in scenario 2 would depend on how much effort both sides put in. If both use awakening then Whitebeard´s damage output should probably be enough to push Akainu to high-high diff. If both only use their base powers as in Marineford then Akainu will barely receive any damage at all. As it happened in the anime.


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 12, 2018)

Akainu beats sickbeard


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 12, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> So Teach's crew and these marines are top-tiers too?



The context was him acting like it was impossible for Aokiji to have hit Whitebeard. I was saying that Aokiji could have definitely hit him if Jozu didn't come along. Maybe not kill him, but a good amount of damage, somewhere inbetween Akainu making his face melt or Kizaru bringing him to his knees after shooting light through him.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 12, 2018)

Any version of WB at the war was a top tier, period. When he was perfectly healthy, he could fight equally with the admirals in the sense that they have to dodge, defend, actually fight him. After all the heart attacks, he managed to beat Akainu in a brawl. After he had his face melted, he low diffed Teach, who mid diffed Ace.

At no point did WB just stop being powerful as shit. His stats slipped a lot, and his reaction was off, but he was still the biggest tank on that field, he survived the most shit and was still moving better than most of his men despite the heart attacks, he stopped every single admiral at least once, and it only took him two tries against admirals to sink MF.

If BM and her Sweet Commanders or Kaido tried to sink MF, they would get bodied. WB did it on death's door. Vulnerable, but WSS. Respect the title.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 12, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> This just in guys the WSM and Gate Keeper to the Throne of the Pirate King is not a top tier




- Crocodile said Whitebeard was far weaker than the guy they know.
- Marco said Crocodile is right.
- Blackbeard said Whitebeard has weakened and he couldn't even save his man.

He died in MF battle. He failed to save Ace. Marco and Blackbeard lead the war against the Marines, then Shanks stopped it. Whitebeard in MF was top-tier just as Roger's dead bones was top-tier. He was a shadow of his former self.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Quipchaque (Feb 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Any version of WB at the war was a top tier, period. When he was perfectly healthy, he could fight equally with the admirals in the sense that they have to dodge, defend, actually fight him. *After all the heart attacks, he managed to beat Akainu in a brawl.* After he had his face melted, he low diffed Teach, who mid diffed Ace.
> 
> At no point did WB just stop being powerful as shit. His stats slipped a lot, and his reaction was off, but he was still the biggest tank on that field, he survived the most shit and was still moving better than most of his men despite the heart attacks, he stopped every single admiral at least once, and it only took him two tries against admirals to sink MF.
> 
> If BM and her Sweet Commanders or Kaido tried to sink MF, they would get bodied. WB did it on death's door. Vulnerable, but WSS. Respect the title.



Whitebeard never beat Akainu in that brawl otherwise Akainu would have drowned after falling into the fissure. He must have managed to recover quite quickly to survive that and he went on fighting without any problem. So if anything it was only a small setback but the true winner is Akainu. He survived with next to no damage and was ultimately responsible for Whitebeard´s death.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 12, 2018)

Weiss Lucifer said:


> personally I think theres defo a difference between_ just old _WB and MF sick WB, especially post-stab
> 
> I would put it like this:
> 
> ...


Yes. Which Whitebeard is fighting here? Regular old Whitebeard or MF Whitebeard? If it's the latter, then the Admirals can win due to MF Whitebeard being a weak link. If not, Yonko wins decisively.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Whitebeard never beat Akainu in that brawl otherwise Akainu would have drowned after falling into the fissure. He must have managed to recover quite quickly to survive that and he went on fighting without any problem. So if anything it was only a small setback but the true winner is Akainu. He survived with next to no damage and was ultimately responsible for Whitebeard´s death.


Akainu wasn't responsible for anything. Whitebeard's own illness and Blackbeard was. All Akainu had to do is using a regular magma punch in battle when Whitebeard dropped his guard due to heart condition. Then other Marines also damaged him because he was too weak to defend himself. Akainu using magma on Whitebeard's face isn't an accomplishment either considering that even low-tier BB pirate members such as Doc Q and Lafitte was able to shot Whitebeard's ass with a pistol.

But the thing is, Akainu tried to kill Whitebeard like Blackbeard, but he failed to see his last moments and he went to underground due to losing the fight. One Piece verse believes that Blackbeard killed Whitebeard, as we've seen from Weevil and Bonney, they blame Blackbeard for that, they don't blame Akainu for WB's death. Akainu was nothing more than a executioner, Blackbeard was the real enemy. He betrayed Whitebeard, captured Ace, purposely delivered him alive, so he could use the Marines to kill Whitebeard in a strategically disadvatageous battle and add that Whitebeard's illness due to his old age, his plan worked perfectly. In the end Akainu couldn't even finish off Whitebeard, and Blackbeard had to do the job.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 12, 2018)

> Which Whitebeard is fighting here?


regular old WB

and if yonkou still lose then - replace him with Primebeard


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## Milkydean (Feb 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Akainu and Kizaru both hit Whitebeard when they got close to him.
> 
> What are you talking about?


You said Aokiji got awfully close in soloing WB which is ridiculous as fuck.You act as if Jozu's help was required.WB would have absolutely defeated Aokiji had Jozu not interferred.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 12, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> You said Aokiji got awfully close in soloing WB which is ridiculous as fuck.You act as if Jozu's help was required.WB would have absolutely defeated Aokiji had Jozu not interferred.



Didn’t you quote me and mock the idea that “Aokiji could do shit to Whitebeard?”

Your post was over the top mocking the idea that Aokiji, an admiral 5 feet away from WB, couldn’t do shit to him.

I think that’s a lot more silly than me saying Aokiji could arguably beat a top tier that he managed to get the drop on. Squardo shoved his sword through WB’s chest when he caught him off guard, you seriously think Aokiji couldn’t have “done shit” when he had WB in a position where he couldn’t cock back and throw a quake?

I already said in a different post I didn’t think WB would lose, but he isn’t going to just “lol block” an admiral in his face when the other two managed to do significant damage when they had the same chance


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 12, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Whitebeard never beat Akainu in that brawl otherwise Akainu would have drowned after falling into the fissure. He must have managed to recover quite quickly to survive that and he went on fighting without any problem. So if anything it was only a small setback but the true winner is Akainu. He survived with next to no damage and was ultimately responsible for Whitebeard´s death.



At the very least he got the better of Akainu and put him down for a good amount of time. That places him at top tier level, since none of the other strong fighters that attacked Akainu came close to even hurting him. Akainu was bleeding after he fought WB


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## Quipchaque (Feb 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> At the very least he got the better of Akainu and put him down for a good amount of time. That places him at top tier level, since none of the other strong fighters that attacked Akainu came close to even hurting him. Akainu was bleeding after he fought WB



Yeah can´t disagree with that. Whitebeard is most definitely top tier in any form.


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## Milkydean (Feb 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Didn’t you quote me and mock the idea that “Aokiji could do shit to Whitebeard?”
> 
> Your post was over the top mocking the idea that Aokiji, an admiral 5 feet away from WB, couldn’t do shit to him.
> 
> ...


Have you even seen that scene?All WB needed was to leave his bisento and he was in a position to quake Aokiji.It was you who thought Aokiji nearly soloed WB.That's laughable idea and thought in itself.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 12, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> Have you even seen that scene?All WB needed was to leave his bisento and he was in a position to quake Aokiji.It was you who thought Aokiji nearly soloed WB.That's laughable idea and thought in itself.



Nah I think it is a very justified claim. Aokiji already prepped his attack. All he had to do was "pull the trigger" and Whitebeard moving even an inch would only give Aokiji all the more reason to attack quickly. It´s like someone pressing a gun against your chest and you are saying the one without the gun is somehow in an advantageous position. Makes no sense.


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## Milkydean (Feb 12, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nah I think it is a very justified claim. Aokiji already prepped his attack. All he had to do was "pull the trigger" and Whitebeard moving even an inch would only give Aokiji all the more reason to attack quickly. It´s like someone pressing a gun against your chest and you are saying the one without the gun is somehow in an advantageous position. Makes no sense.



The only thing that doesn't make sense is your gun comparison.WB had a fucking Bazooka when compared to Aokiji's puny gun.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 12, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> Have you even seen that scene?All WB needed was to leave his bisento and he was in a position to quake Aokiji.It was you who thought Aokiji nearly soloed WB.That's laughable idea and thought in itself.



Just to be clear, you are still of the opinion that Aokiji, the admiral who fought equally with Akainu for 10 days, and who's attack speed was fast enough to completely freeze Whitebeard in an instant, "couldn't have done shit" to Whitebeard 5 feet away with his attack staring WB right in the face? Wasn't WB completely surprised that his attack missed? He can just compose himself and quake before Aokiji could hit him?

I've already clarified a few times now that I don't think Aokiji would have killed him, right now I'm trying to figure out if you are really acting like Aokiji couldn't have hit Whitebeard with that attack?


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## Quipchaque (Feb 13, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> The only thing that doesn't make sense is your gun comparison.WB had a fucking Bazooka when compared to Aokiji's puny gun.



You are missing the point. It´s not about the power. It´s about the fact Whitebeard wouldn´t be able to move an inch without Aokiji responding to his attack accordingly. Besides how much did this Bazooka help when he attacked Aokiji at the beginning of the war?


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## Raiden34 (Feb 13, 2018)

Weiss Lucifer said:


> regular old WB
> 
> and if yonkou still lose then - replace him with Primebeard


Primebeard is a different level entirely, he can even solo.

Shanks and regular old WB wins with mid-high difficulty.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 13, 2018)

Scarily I actually agree with you here @DiscoZoro20 

I'm not sure whether Aokiji could have gone on to ultimately defeat WB there (he wasn't sufficiently weakened at that point and I'm one of the decreasing minority that seems to have respect for WB's WSM title) but he definitely has him pinned down in an advantageous position there and prepped to probably inflict some damage on him without Jozu's intervention.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 13, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Primebeard is a different level entirely, he can even solo.
> 
> Shanks and regular old WB wins with mid-high difficulty.


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## Dunno (Feb 13, 2018)

Post stab WB wasn't weaker than pre stab WB. He was injured. It's just like Luffy how wasn't weaker after his fight against Cracker than before it, but he was fatigued and hurt. If the WSM is damaged before the fight even begins, then it's possible for someone else to beat him, but that won't mean that that character is stronger than him.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 13, 2018)

> Post stab WB wasn't weaker than pre stab WB


but I think the stab makes his heart attacks more frequent

so _effectively_ he is less capable in a fight


also it needs to be pointed out that even pre-stab MF WB should be weaker than plain "old WB" on account of his haki (especially CoO) being worse

regular "old WB" = CoO so good that he swats Ace in his sleep
MF WB pre-stab = CoO is already bad (presumably due to illness and more advanced age), doesnt see Squardos stab coming


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## Sherlōck (Feb 13, 2018)

Weiss Lucifer said:


> doesnt see Squardos stab coming



Or he wasn't using it cause he didn't need to? It's not like he is old & haki gets used up.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 13, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> Or he wasn't using it cause he didn't need to? It's not like he is old & haki gets used up.


 after the stab Marco literally says how if WB was less old/less sick, Squardo would have never gotten that stab in

this is on top of him never using CoA defence to harden himself to defend and I think its obvious MF WBs haki wasnt @ 100%


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 13, 2018)

and he wasnt "using" it in his sleep vs Ace either, yet he could still counter Ace easily

so I think its not as simple as on/off switch, there are different levels to it too


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## Sherlōck (Feb 13, 2018)

Weiss Lucifer said:


> after the stab Marco literally says how if WB was less old/less sick, Squardo would have never gotten that stab in



You can avoid an attack without using COO too.



Weiss Lucifer said:


> so I think its not as simple as on/off switch, there are different levels to it too



Yeah, Fujitora can probably use it 24/7 but he is a speacial case (being blind and all). So until we get such confirmation about WB lets stick to what we know.


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## Milkydean (Feb 13, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Just to be clear, you are still of the opinion that Aokiji, the admiral who fought equally with Akainu for 10 days, and who's attack speed was fast enough to completely freeze Whitebeard in an instant, "couldn't have done shit" to Whitebeard 5 feet away with his attack staring WB right in the face? Wasn't WB completely surprised that his attack missed? He can just compose himself and quake before Aokiji could hit him?


Nope,he coudn't have damaged WB.All WB needed to do was the leave his bisento and quake him.IF WB had seriously quaked Aokiji,he would have been able to put him down for some time like he did with Akainu.


> I've already clarified a few times now that I don't think Aokiji would have killed him, right now I'm trying to figure out if you are really acting like Aokiji couldn't have hit Whitebeard with that attack?


Yes,he couldn't have,unless WB had a heart attack.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are missing the point. It´s not about the power. It´s about the fact Whitebeard wouldn´t be able to move an inch without Aokiji responding to his attack accordingly. Besides how much did this Bazooka help when he attacked Aokiji at the beginning of the war?


Why exactly WB won't be able to move an inch?It's not like Aokiji froze WB,he just froze the bisento,WB could have easily let the bisento go ,and quake Aokiji.

Are comparing WB's playful quakes to his serious quakes?Because if you think that was a serious quake then you're pretty much saying Jozu's diamond smash>WB'S quake ability.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Quipchaque (Feb 13, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> Why exactly WB won't be able to move an inch?It's not like Aokiji froze WB,he just froze the bisento,WB could have easily let the bisento go ,and quake Aokiji.
> 
> Are comparing WB's playful quakes to his serious quakes?Because if you think that was a serious quake then you're pretty much saying Jozu's diamond smash>WB'S quake ability.



You should watch the ending of Guy vs Kisame in Naruto shippuden when Guy warned Kisame not to move. Then maybe you will understand why he wouldn´t be able to. No I´m not comparing quakes. It is irrelevant what kind of quake Whitebeard uses against a logia that he failed to hit. And comparing Jozu´s feat to Whitebeard means nothing. Aokiji was on-guard against Whitebeard on both occasions but he did not expect Jozu to interfere. That´s the difference.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 13, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> Nope,he coudn't have damaged WB.All WB needed to do was the leave his bisento and quake him.IF WB had seriously quaked Aokiji,he would have been able to put him down for some time like he did with Akainu.
> 
> Yes,he couldn't have,unless WB had a heart attack.
> 
> ...



Whitebeard is not faster then Aokiji. 

Im not sure where you are getting the impression he is from.


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## Milkydean (Feb 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You should watch the ending of Guy vs Kisame in Naruto shippuden when Guy warned Kisame not to move. Then maybe you will understand why he wouldn´t be able to.


Kisame was absolutely defeated and Guy wasn't,in this case WB wasn't defeated at all.WB was fine and so was Aokiji.This is a stupid comparison.


> No I´m not comparing quakes. It is irrelevant what kind of quake Whitebeard uses against a logia that he failed to hit.


You claimed WB's firepower wasn't enough the first time WB hit Aokijiwhich is true but it was a casual quake from WB.


> And comparing Jozu´s feat to Whitebeard means nothing. Aokiji was on-guard against Whitebeard on both occasions but he did not expect Jozu to interfere. That´s the difference.


Why?Do you think an on guard Aokiji coudn't take an attack from Jozu?



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Whitebeard is not faster then Aokiji.
> 
> Im not sure where you are getting the impression he is from.


Neither is Aokiji faster than WB.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 14, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> Kisame was absolutely defeated and Guy wasn't,in this case WB wasn't defeated at all.WB was fine and so was Aokiji.This is a stupid comparison.
> 
> You claimed WB's firepower wasn't enough the first time WB hit Aokijiwhich is true but it was a casual quake from WB.
> 
> ...



He has better speed feats. 

So yea he kind of is faster.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 14, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> Kisame was absolutely defeated and Guy wasn't,in this case WB wasn't defeated at all.WB was fine and so was Aokiji.This is a stupid comparison.
> 
> You claimed WB's firepower wasn't enough the first time WB hit Aokijiwhich is true but it was a casual quake from WB.
> 
> ...



It´s not a stupid comparison at all. It may be true that Kisame was defeated but the situation was the same. Once he moved Guy immediately striked. Same happens when Whitebeard moves against Kiji. Honestly I don´t know where you get this weird idea from that Whitebeard can quake punch faster with a lowered arm than Kiji firing off his already charged attack that is already straight in Wb´s face. 

No I did not claim WB doesn´t have enough firepower. I claimed that his attacks didn´t work I´ve stressed that point like 3 times now. If you could defeat a logia just by using stronger attacks then haki would be irrelevant mate.

No I do not. That´s the point. You claimed I´m arguing Jozu´s punch is more effective simply because Jozu´s attack connected and I refuted that argument by showing the difference in the 2 scenarios.

Honestly why do you keep arguing? No matter how you look at it it´s crystal clear that Whitebeard was in a bad spot that´s why Jozu felt the need to interfere in the first place. Saying otherwise is heavy understimation of Aokiji. You can´t just lol-block an admiral from that distance with your weapon pinned down and an attack inches away from your face. Whitebeard could barely react to Akainu´s attack after quake punching him and he could not react to Squardo. Stop the fanboying.


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## Milkydean (Feb 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> It´s not a stupid comparison at all. It may be true that Kisame was defeated but the situation was the same. Once he moved Guy immediately striked. Same happens when Whitebeard moves against Kiji. Honestly I don´t know where you get this weird idea from that Whitebeard can quake punch faster with a lowered arm than Kiji firing off his already charged attack that is already straight in Wb´s face.


It was stupid.Both were completely different situations.WB could have easily quaked Aokiji.


> No I did not claim WB doesn´t have enough firepower. I claimed that his attacks didn´t work I´ve stressed that point like 3 times now. If you could defeat a logia just by using stronger attacks then haki would be irrelevant mate.


Luffy defeated Crocs.WB defeated Akainu,all without haki.


> No I do not. That´s the point. You claimed I´m arguing Jozu´s punch is more effective simply because Jozu´s attack connected and I refuted that argument by showing the difference in the 2 scenarios.


Again,why was the sneak attack different?Both attacks connected right?Or does Aokiji have less durability against a sneak attack?



> Honestly why do you keep arguing? No matter how you look at it it´s crystal clear that Whitebeard was in a bad spot that´s why Jozu felt the need to interfere in the first place. Saying otherwise is heavy understimation of Aokiji. You can´t just lol-block an admiral from that distance with your weapon pinned down and an attack inches away from your face. Whitebeard could barely react to Akainu´s attack after quake punching him and he could not react to Squardo. Stop the fanboying.


Jozu also blocked Mihawk's slash and Marco stopped Kizaru from attacking WB,so was WB in a bad spot then as well?WB was caught off guard against Squardo which he wasn't against Aokiji.He could have either dodged it or quaked Aokiji to pieces.


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> He has better speed feats.
> 
> So yea he kind of is faster.


What feats?


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 14, 2018)

Call up Oda


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 14, 2018)

You're just going to have to admit that Aokiji could've attacked WB before he could've gotten his attack off. He messed up and missed Aokiji right when he was in his face, we don't just give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he still has time to recover from his fuck up when Aokiji had him dead to rights. 

WB with hand still on weapon, other arm at his side. Aokiji, attack fully prepped, right in range where Kizaru and Aokiji both managed to hit him at. It's obvious WB couldn't have done a thing but tank, that's why Jozu came along. 

Oda draws WB missing, WB being surprised he missed, and Jozu helping out WB, and you come to the conclusion that Whitebeard had enough time to install Linux and then quake Aokiji with time to spare?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Quipchaque (Feb 14, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> You're just going to have to admit that Aokiji could've attacked WB before he could've gotten his attack off. He messed up and missed Aokiji right when he was in his face, we don't just give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he still has time to recover from his fuck up when Aokiji had him dead to rights.
> 
> WB with hand still on weapon, other arm at his side. Aokiji, attack fully prepped, right in range where Kizaru and Aokiji both managed to hit him at. It's obvious WB couldn't have done a thing but tank, that's why Jozu came along.
> 
> Oda draws WB missing, WB being surprised he missed, and Jozu helping out WB, and you come to the conclusion that Whitebeard had enough time to install Linux and then quake Aokiji with time to spare?



Ikr? it´s such a strange logic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 14, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> had enough time to install Linux



How long does it take to install Linux?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Milkydean (Feb 14, 2018)

You talk as if WB couldn't have just let his weapon go and jumped backwards or attack Aokiji from that position.Aokiji had enough time to name call his attack and answer a bunch of fodders,but apparently didn't have enough time to dodge?Such logic by these admiral fanboys.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 14, 2018)

It's official, you're one of us now @DiscoZoro20

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Quipchaque (Feb 14, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> It's official, you're one of us now @DiscoZoro20



Nope I will never switch sides. I will defy your admiral worshipping whenever I can and dish out tier specialist ratings when need arises!

Reactions: Like 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nope I will never switch sides. I will defy your admiral worshipping whenever I can and dish out tier specialist ratings when need arises!



Good, First Mate/Admiral/Yonkou power level debates are actually entertaining as long as there competent people on each side, and not just people that answer challenges to their reasoning with "nuh uh." As much as I disagree with someone like Gohara, he backs up his reasoning, and I can get how different interpretations can be. Sometimes I even change my mind on things.

But this "WB's quake is strong so he must be fast/WB had Aokiji where he wanted him" thing milkman was going on about made me die on the inside a little.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Milkydean (Feb 14, 2018)

You either don't understand what I wrote or are clearly ignoring my reasoning and oversimplifying my arguments to make yourself look smart.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 14, 2018)

@Milkydean


Milkydean said:


> The only thing that doesn't make sense is your gun comparison.WB had a fucking Bazooka when compared to Aokiji's puny gun.



^ Explain please. The gun analogy Disco gave for you to give this response was that Aokiji basially had a loaded gun aimed a few feet away from WB. The point is that he had a clear shot at WB, and WB had up no defense.

Your post makes it look like that's all irrelevant because WB has this figurative "bazooka." It doesn't matter if WB is swinging around a nokia, no amount of physical attack power negates the fact that Aokiji was quicker on the draw. Right after dodging a completely aware and coherent WB. Greater attack power doesn't mean WB automatically gains the speed to stop Aokiji


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## Milkydean (Feb 14, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> @Milkydean
> 
> 
> ^ Explain please. The gun analogy Disco gave for you to give this response was that Aokiji basially had a loaded gun aimed a few feet away from WB. The point is that he had a clear shot at WB, and WB had up no defense.
> ...


I have already explained it many times as to why I think WB can easily back down and punch Aokiji with quake or easily fire a quake from the position he was.Why do you think Aokiji is faster than WB?Is there any proof to back it up?Also Aokiji fucking answered fodders before he name called his attack and you think WB didn't have enough time to retaliate?


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## Quipchaque (Feb 14, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Good, First Mate/Admiral/Yonkou power level debates are actually entertaining as long as there competent people on each side, and not just people that answer challenges to their reasoning with "nuh uh." As much as I disagree with someone like Gohara, he backs up his reasoning, and I can get how different interpretations can be. Sometimes I even change my mind on things.
> 
> But this "WB's quake is strong so he must be fast/WB had Aokiji where he wanted him" thing milkman was going on about made me die on the inside a little.



"milkman"... I´m dying. Please end me.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 14, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> It was stupid.Both were completely different situations.WB could have easily quaked Aokiji.
> 
> Luffy defeated Crocs.WB defeated Akainu,all without haki.
> 
> ...



Blitzing Whitebeard
Blitzing Doflamingo
Reacting to a Sneak attack from Marco in Zoan mode. 
Jumping up to the top of Marineford in a instant. 

Whitebeards best speed feat is idk, cant even think of a good speed feat from Whitebeard to be honest.


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