# Taijutsu Fight 17: Kakashi vs Itachi



## RedChidori (Apr 6, 2014)

The title says it all .



VS



*We saw these two duke it out in hand to hand combat before, but it wasn't full fledged. If Itachi and Kakashi had a battle with nothing but Taijutsu, who do YOU think would come out on top?*

Location: The Uchiha Hideout
State of Mind: Bloodlusted for both.
Starting Distance: 7.5 meters away
Knowledge: Full for both
Restrictions: *PURELY TAIJUTSU FOLKS!!!* 
Additional Info: *Sharingan/Mangekyo Sharingan is allowed but ONLY for precognition!!!* Scenarios are of the following:

*Scenario 1*
Base Itachi vs Base Kakashi

*Scenario 2*
Itachi (Sharingan Activated) vs Kakashi (Sharingan Activated)

*Scenario 3*
Itachi (Mangekyo Sharingan Activated) vs Kakashi (Mangekyo Sharingan Activated)

READY?! FIGHT!!!!! _-RedChidori_


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## Malicious Friday (Apr 6, 2014)

I think Itachi has the upper hand in Taijutsu here. So Itachi takes the cake for me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 6, 2014)

Itachi is faster and has shown better agility. They are more or less equal in strength. Kakashi has more stamina but it won't be an issue here.

Itachi also has overall better taijutsu feats, so I'd give him the edge even though they are in the same tier.

Itachi wins all scenarios. He is just better overall.


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## Kai (Apr 6, 2014)

I simply fail to see, in regards to taijutsu only, how Kakashi's singular Sharingan can even match Itachi's dual Sharingan. If Itachi assaults Kakashi from his right side, Kakashi will only visualize the attack with his ordinary eye. That's a weakness. Itachi will be just as comfortable with his dojutsu as the fight progresses, and while Kakashi has certainly grown accustomed to using his Sharingan extensively, ultimately it is not quite the same as an Uchiha prodigy like Itachi.

Kakashi will give Itachi a great taijutsu fight because the former is an incredible genius, but because of one Sharingan and a greater stamina drain his start is more disadvantageous.

Itachi high difficulty.


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## Santoryu (Apr 6, 2014)

Kakashi would win as he has access to at least the first gate. If gates are restricted however, it could go either way.




Kai said:


> I simply fail to see, in regards to taijutsu only, how Kakashi's singular Sharingan can even match Itachi's dual Sharingan.



Kakashi having only one Sharingan was never mentioned to be a problem, and as evidenced by the manga, it's not going to be a deciding factor here. We've already seen Kakashi match Itachi evenly in taijutsu, albeit briefly, and before you mention Itachi was limited to 30% chakra, I'd like to point out that this did not affect his physical abilities, and there's the fact that Kakashi used a bunshin.



> If Itachi assaults Kakashi from his right side, Kakashi will only visualize the attack with his ordinary eye. That's a weakness.


C'mon dude, that's not how things work in Kakashi's fights and you know it; Kakashi has a better sense of smell anyway.



> Itachi will be just as comfortable with his dojutsu as the fight progresses, and while Kakashi has certainly grown accustomed to using his Sharingan extensively, ultimately it is not quite the same as an Uchiha prodigy like Itachi.


If the war is anything to go by, Kakashi can go on for a bit longer than his opponent. Kakashi also has better stamina in general, and can activate the gates.


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## Bonly (Apr 6, 2014)

From what I remember the Taijutsu DB stat doesn't include things such as the Sharingan and from the 3rd DB both had a 4.5 in Taijutsu so even if one thinks Itachi improved since the pain arc he shouldn't have improved to the point to where they aren't still around the same level and their speed should be around the same area as well. So this is basically a battle of attrition of Durability and Stamina though Kakashi has the advantage in the latter while both are more or less equal with the former though with the first gate Kakashi can deal out more damage though that depends if he'd actually use it.


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## StickaStick (Apr 6, 2014)

This should be a pretty well contested fight. While not limited to only taijutsu, we've seen in both of their encounters that when you cut out the haxxory they've been depicted as very evenly matched. With the speed edge and better showing with weapons I'd give the slight edge to Itachi.

Itachi high-very high diff.


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## The Undying (Apr 6, 2014)

There's no reason to assume that the stats don't account for Sharingan, particularly when you consider the fact Itachi is never seen in battle (or at _all_, really) without it.

Kakashi and Itachi are roughly equal in Taijutsu mastery, but I'd say Itachi's speed gives him a slight edge over Kakashi's. He'll take it high diff.


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## Garcher (Apr 6, 2014)

This fight is a peace of cake for Itachi. He rapes Kakashi.


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## Kai (Apr 6, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi having only one Sharingan was never mentioned to be a problem, and as evidenced by the manga, it's not going to be a deciding factor here. We've already seen Kakashi match Itachi evenly in taijutsu, albeit briefly, and before you mention Itachi was limited to 30% chakra, I'd like to point out that this did not affect his physical abilities, and there's the fact that Kakashi used a bunshin.


It's not about it having to be stated to be a problem. It's the fact that possessing both eyes is greater than possessing the singular eye, and this is true on every possible level of dojutsu. I also wouldn't have used this argument unless other physical abilities like speed and physical power were negligible comparisons. 

I already stated previously Kakashi will be able to match Itachi for a while despite these disadvantages because he's such a genius. 



			
				Santoryu said:
			
		

> C'mon dude, that's not how things work in Kakashi's fights and you know it; Kakashi has a better sense of smell anyway.


You say that's not how things work in Kakashi's fights, yet sense of smell works how/has worked when in Kakashi's close-quarters exchanges?



			
				Santoryu said:
			
		

> If the war is anything to go by, Kakashi can go on for a bit longer than his opponent. Kakashi also has better stamina in general, and can activate the gates.


Kakashi has greater starting stamina, but the rate of depletion for using the Sharingan will be greater on a non-Uchiha in comparison to a pure Uchiha. I did leave out the first gate, but there's no telling how long he can use it during a fight; It seemed more like a "burst move" for Kakashi on the mountain climbing exercise than it would be for extensive combat of his style.


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## Freakeyful (Apr 6, 2014)

They are more or less equal in Taijutsu, while Itachi has a little advantage in Speed - I dont think hes much faster than Kakashi -  Kakashi has one in Durability and Stamina. If Kakashi actually opens the first gate in a fight and not only while climbing a mountain it should close the speed gap between them and give Kakashi the edge. 
But it could go either way  very high diff.


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## RedChidori (Apr 6, 2014)

Is Kakashi using the First Gate even canon?


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## raizen28 (Apr 6, 2014)

more sharingan means better taijutsu.
kakashi only has one sharingan plus only spared with gai who doesnt  have any

itachi has went against sasuke[who has both sharingan fully matured]


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## Freakeyful (Apr 6, 2014)

> Is Kakashi using the First Gate even canon?



Yes it is


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## RedChidori (Apr 6, 2014)

Freakeyful said:


> Yes it is



Oh cool .


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## Cognitios (Apr 6, 2014)

Kakashi with first gate might win in taijutsu, assuming this is sick Itachi ofc.
That's base.
Otherwise Kakashi loses in Sharingan due to lacking Sharingan.
Itachi wins with 2 mangekyo sharingan, unless he is sick, then Kakashi wins with first gate and MS do to lower exhaustion


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## StickaStick (Apr 6, 2014)

Curious question: how much strain did the 1st gate put on Kakashi and was it noticeable when he used it? (I don't remember the chapter he used it.)

I ask because the gates always kind of reminded me of Kaio-Ken and when fighting Frieza initially Goku was using Kaio-Ken but it wasn't brought up until later that he was (there were no art effects to give it way; at least in the anime). Not likely, but could it be a similar thing with Kakashi that he actually uses in some of his skirmishes (such as with Itachi possibly) but it wasn't shown.


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## Cognitios (Apr 6, 2014)

> Curious question: how much strain did the 1st gate put on Kakashi and was it noticeable when he used it? (I don't remember the chapter he used it.)
> 
> I ask because the gates always kind of reminded me of Kaio-Ken and when fighting Frieza initially Goku was using Kaio-Ken but it wasn't brought up until later that he was (there were no art effects to give it way; at least in the anime). Not likely, but could it be a similar thing with Kakashi that he actually uses in some of his skirmishes (such as with Itachi possibly) but it wasn't shown.


I don't know about then, probably only  a little since he only used it for a second.
But now it won't do much to his body at all. Mainly do to him getting a hell a lot more stamina and endurance not to mention durability than before.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 6, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi would win as he has access to at least the first gate. If gates are restricted however, it could go either way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kakashi isn't as experienced with the gates as Gai is. He never used them in an actual combat situation. 
I think Gates won't help him here as the 1st gate alone doesn't give him enough edge to defeat Itachi during its duration. Using the 1st gate would only harm himself in the long run.


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## kakashibeast (Apr 6, 2014)

Kakashi would win high def


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## nmwn93 (Apr 6, 2014)

kakashi will win in my not so humble opinion


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## Mercurial (Apr 6, 2014)

Kakashi wins without being pushed too much.

He is faster, a man who could counterblitz some V2 Bijuu landing Raikiri 1 on them and has short reactions comparable to KCM Minato 2. 

Itachi couldn't touch a casual KCM Naruto with his hand 3 while Obito was putting a serious KCM Naruto with his back against the wall 4; yeah Obito used Kamui to arrive to that situation, but then Naruto couldn't dodge his hand at that point and Gai had to jump in the fight to save his ass. The same Obito... gets a harsh lesson in CQC from Kakashi.

So Kakashi is faster, generally slightly better in pure taijutsu, has better strength feats (could make Obito cough blood with a pair of punches, could parry a V2 Bijuu's tail whip, could stop Zabuza's giant sword with a mere kunai already in part 1 and where out of shape, in Shippuden could use that sword with only a hand, for a lot of time and with great skill) and has more durability and stamina (could tank Kakuzu's giant tree-destroying kick like nothing, could survive three ST from close distance while one was enough to K.O. Choza inspite the man being able to jump in Asuma's Katon: Haisekisho and tank the burning effect and the explosion, could fight with injuries like nothing happened more than once). Also, Kakashi can open at least the 1st Gate and it's interesting to see that he was said to be better than part 1 Lee in taijutsu, who could open the 5th Gate... remember that Gates are classified as taijutsu (and kinjutsu).

Itachi gives him a very good fight but Kakashi is better.


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## Fiiction (Apr 6, 2014)

Since when did ms have better precognition than 3T? Anyways I think it'll be pretty close but I favor itachi by feats and portrayal even with the gate of mind opened for kakashi. And I'm glad people pointed that out because an Itachi fapper would've forgot that easily.   Ooh and we can all agree that itachi looks bad ass in that picture right?


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2014)

I think Itachi would be clearly above pre-war arc kakashi in taijutsu due to Bee's performance against Sasuke and itachi's performance against bee.

However, in the war arc Kakashi can counterblitz the V2 neo pain rikudou who have both sharingan and shared vision.  he's also overall depicted as the equal of 6th gated Gai in taijutsu effectiveness (Gai obviously has much more raw speed/strength, but kakashi has the precog and raikiri).  Not sure if Itachi could match a 6th gated Gai's taijutsu even if Gai's strength was gimped to kakashi-level.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> However, in the war arc Kakashi can counterblitz the V2 neo pain rikudou who have both sharingan and shared vision.



In v2, Jinchuriki lose their pupils and irises. It's unclear if they were still being enhanced, and even if there were, Kakashi blatantly failed at striking one in later pages. It doesn't appear to be something he can do consistently...



> he's also overall depicted as the equal of 6th gated Gai in taijutsu effectiveness (Gai obviously has much more raw speed/strength, but kakashi has the precog and raikiri).



Just no. 

I take it you mean overall effectiveness in close combat, but even that is untrue. Gate 6 Gai's speed, strength, skill, & techniques are _far_ more dangerous up close than anything Kakashi has to offer, including Raikiri & precognition.

Kakashi & Gai both landing a hit on a v2 Jinchuriki doesn't indcate equality in any way. All that proves it that Kakashi & Gai are both capable of ....landing a hit on a v2 Jinchuriki...(though Kakashi had some consistency issues). 



> Not sure if Itachi could match a 6th gated Gai's taijutsu even if Gai's strength was gimped to kakashi-level.



Kakashi would get his head punted off by Gated Gai if he engaged him up close.


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> In v2, Jinchuriki lose their pupils and irises. It's unclear if they were still being enhanced, and even if there were, Kakashi blatantly failed at striking one in later pages. It doesn't appear to be something he can do consistently...


im open to that possibility, but really, i don't see why their eyes visually disappearing means they still don't actually see through those eyes.  




Rocky said:


> Just no.
> 
> I take it you mean overall effectiveness in close combat, but even that is untrue. Gate 6 Gai's speed, strength, skill, & techniques are _far_ more dangerous up close than anything Kakashi has to offer, including Raikiri & precognition.
> 
> Kakashi & Gai both landing a hit on a v2 Jinchuriki doesn't indcate equality in any way. All that proves it that Kakashi & Gai are both capable of ....landing a hit on a v2 Jinchuriki...(though Kakashi had some consistency issues).


they both had consistency issues as they were both slapped away by one of the V2 jinchurikis.  if you want to talk about the jink dodging kakashi's raikiri after the initial exchange, you can't say only kakashi's strikes were dodged after the fact (if that's what you were implying).  I don't see by feats how 6th gated gai's speed, strength and skills put him on some higher level of ability than kakashi in CQC.  His precog makes up for the speed difference and raikiri gives him the advantage in offense unless Gai uses MP.




Rocky said:


> Kakashi would get his head punted off by Gated Gai if he engaged him up close.


I think i'm missing something in the manga because i can't recall what feat you could be basing that on.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 6, 2014)

^1. who cares?

_2. the 1st & 3rd scenarios are redundant

_3. you realize that neither would even lose consciousness, let alone be seriously injured/die(lol)?


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> im open to that possibility, but really, i don't see why their eyes visually disappearing means they still don't actually see through those eyes.



Well, I mean the Sharingan's precognition is based off it's design (amount of tome, type of MS/EMS, etc.). If that design isn't there..

It's only a possibilty. I don't know for sure.


*Spoiler*: _Point 2_ 





> they both had consistency issues as they were both slapped away by one of the V2 jinchurikis.



Nah, Gai landed his next kick, but the Jin dodged Kakashi's Raikiri. Then they were both smacked away by one Gai definitely wasn't fighting (he was fighting v2 Fu, because she was flying when he kicked her).



> if you want to talk about the jink dodging kakashi's raikiri after the initial exchange, you can't say only kakashi's strikes were dodged after the fact (if that's what you were implying).



Only his were...

I mean, after the initial exchange where they both connected, Gai followed up by kicking Fu while Kakashi attempted to Raikiri a different one, which ducked it and swatted Kakashi (and Gai) away. Gai probably wasn't paying attention to the Jin that batted them back, but he possessed the reflexes to react at the last moment.



> I don't see by feats how 6th gated gai's speed, strength and skills put him on some higher level of ability than kakashi in CQC.  His precog makes up for the speed difference



Please expand on how one 3-Tome Sharingan makes up for a .5 advantage in the Databook in speed & skill, plus six more gates of speed.



> and raikiri gives him the advantage in offense unless Gai uses MP.



Good thing Gai can use MP.





> I think i'm missing something in the manga because i can't recall what feat you could be basing that on.



Pretty much everything Gai's ever done, plus the general feats and hype of the gates themselves. Gai's body moves so fast in the 6th Gate that his punches can light the air on fire....

I don't even know if there's a good argument that Kakashi is faster than Base Gai.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Nah, Gai landed his next kick, but the Jin dodged Kakashi's Raikiri. Then they were both smacked away by one Gai definitely wasn't fighting (he was fighting v2 Fu, because she was flying when he kicked her).


Considering the position of Fuu, I don't see how he could have been fighting it and got hit by Utakata when standing right next to kakashi.



Rocky said:


> Only his were...
> 
> I mean, after the initial exchange where they both connected


I think that kick is part of the initial exchange, as they stopped 3 jins and fuu was probably still charging at kakashi and gai when she got kicked.



Rocky said:


> Please expand on how one 3-Tome Sharingan makes up for a .5 advantage in the Databook in speed & skill, plus six more gates of speed.


well, V1 Ei is much faster than taka sasuke.  With the 3 tomoe, Sasuke has reactions that not only make up for the speed difference, but allow him to counterblitz Ei despite that difference.

Same with Sasuke vs Naruto at VoTe.  2 tomoe already allows sasuke to fight against people much faster than himself, yet he was getting speed blitzed by KN0 Naruto.  This is the same sasuke who was at least as fast as gateless lee.  Then when he gets the 3 tomoe and now has the precog that allows him to start dominating naruto in CQC despite naruto's massive speed advantage.  




Rocky said:


> Good thing Gai can use MP.


...yeah i agree...?



Rocky said:


> Pretty much everything Gai's ever done, plus the general feats and hype of the gates themselves. Gai's body moves so fast in the 6th Gate that his punches can light the air on fire.
> 
> I don't even know if there's a good argument that Kakashi is faster than Base Gai.


Don't really know what that has to do with Gai being better than kakashi in CQC.  It's only the 7th and 8th gate that have gotten this massive hype.  Gai's punches light the air on fire simply means he's fast, how fast would need to be based on his feats in those gates against people.  Ei, KCM,BM,BSM, and all the juubi jins have never caught on fire by moving, but does that mean 6th gated gai is faster than all of them?  I hope you say no.  

I don't have an argument for kakashi being physically faster than base gai because that's not something i believe.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Considering the position of Fuu, I don't see how he could have been fighting it and got hit by Utakata when standing right next to kakashi.



Well, that's what happened. The Jin weren't exactly far apart..

It's on panel man. Gai kicked Fu, while the other one (Ukataka I guess) ducked Raikiri and swatted both Kakashi & Gai away. Like I said, Kakashi displayed a consistency issue with striking the v2 Jins, while Gai's blow was clearly not avoided.



> I think that kick is part of the initial exchange, as they stopped 3 jins and fuu was probably still charging at kakashi and gai when she got kicked.



I don't understand.

The initial exchange as I'm defining it is this. Gai lands a punch and upwards kick, Kakashi lands Raikiri.

Then on the next page, Kakashi reengages the one on the ground while Gai "dynamic entry" kicks the one in the air. Whichever exchange it is is honestly irrelevant. Gai landed three hits and none missed. Kakashi landed one and missed one. How did Gai demonstrate any consistency issues?



> well, V1 Ei is much faster than taka sasuke.  With the 3 tomoe, Sasuke has reactions that not only make up for the speed difference, but allow him to counterblitz Ei despite that difference.
> 
> Same with Sasuke vs Naruto at VoTe.



Ei has not shown to be faster than Sasuke outside of Shunshin. Sasuke read Ei's Erubo and had the sufficient speed to avoid it. 

The ability to read moves is completely and utterly useless without body speed to go with it. See Sauce vs. Lee for an explanation. Lee says that, almost word for word. The reason that Sasuke was getting blitzed at the VotE was because his 2-Tome eyes couldn't track Naruto. If Sasuke was getting overwhelmed because his body was too slow, then gaining the ability to read Naruto's movements would have changed nothing.

Kakashi's body is too slow to guard against Gai. I say that because I don't think Kakashi can physically move his body as fast as somebody who lights the air on fire when they throw punch or kick.  



> Ei, KCM,BM,BSM, and all the juubi jins have never caught on fire by moving, but does that mean 6th gated gai is faster than all of them?  I hope you say no.



Gai has better body speed than all of them. They can still get from point A to point B faster than him using Shunshin (because it's almost like a teleportation Jutsu, thus the name), but they (obviously) can't punch and kick as fast as him. You can throw punches & kicks at faster speeds than you can run man.

If 6th Gated Gai & Kakashi are fighting in CQC, Gai is going to throw a punch  faster than anything I've seen Kakashi dodge or block, followed by hundreds more at that speed. Not to mention, Gai is more skilled than Kakashi in Taijutsu anyway, giving him another advantage.

You know, I really like how the chapter "The worst match up" portrays the relationship between the Sharingan & advanced Taijutsu.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 7, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> *Scenario 1*
> Base Itachi vs Base Kakashi


Itachi should still be slightly faster even without Sharingan but Kakashi got superior strength(Zabuza fights, using Beheader) and durability feats. Taijutsu-wise they were shown to be roughly equals(fighting KCM Naruto/fighting V2 Jins) but I think that Kakashi has an edge due to being Gai's sparring partner and having access to the 1st Gate. Without Sharingan drain Kakashi's stamina is good enough to not be an issue here imo. So faster opponent vs opponent who can take and deal more damage + possible edge in skill. Going with Kakashi here.


RedChidori said:


> *Scenario 2*
> Itachi (Sharingan Activated) vs Kakashi (Sharingan Activated)


 They both get the same level of precog but now Kakashi loses in stamina department. Kai has brought up an excellent point(sadly ). Abusing Kakashi's blind-spot/normal eye is something I can see Itachi doing. Even though Kakashi should be more that aware about his weakness and likely trained himself accordingly(he countered Kabuto's attempt to abuse a different blind-spot effortlessly back in Part 1) it is a glaring weakness. 
So faster opponent with slightly better stamina vs opponent who can take and deal more damage + possible edge in skill but with abusable weakness. Can go either way now, depending on your views and preferences. But I am going with Kakashi. Because he is awesome.



RedChidori said:


> *Scenario 3*
> Itachi (Mangekyo Sharingan Activated) vs Kakashi (Mangekyo Sharingan Activated)


 Their MS doesn't grant additional levels of pre-cog as far as we know. Scenario 2 basically.


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## Thunder (Apr 7, 2014)

Itachi and Kakashi should be roughly equal in a straight up taijutsu brawl. Various data suggests this. So I imagine it will come down to whose got the better tools to supplement their taijutsu with. The Sharingan is really the only thing worth mentioning that's capable of turning the tides either way, and Itachi happens to possesses both Sharingan as well as an Uchiha body that compliments them unlike Kakashi, so he should win. I would love to say Kaimon is a factor here, however Kakashi never opens it. Thus I'm not entirely convinced of its reliability or usefulness in combat situations for Kakashi.

Other points: 


 If Itachi is sick it's much more believable to me that Kakashi could pull off a divisive victory in any scenario.
The Mangekyō Sharingan doesn't seem to enhance the 3-tomoe Sharingan's natural precognition as far as we're aware. If such is the case, keeping the Mangekyō Sharingan active will only serve to drain Kakashi's reserves quicker. Other than that it's completely irrelevant.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Well, that's what happened. The Jin weren't exactly far apart..
> 
> It's on panel man. Gai kicked Fu, while the other one (Ukataka I guess) ducked Raikiri and swatted both Kakashi & Gai away. Like I said, Kakashi displayed a consistency issue with striking the v2 Jins, while Gai's blow was clearly not avoided.


Sure, but would you disagree that Gai's strike on fuu was within the initial counterblitz?  Utakata had been hit, thus would have been on guard standing and waiting for kakashi's approach.  Fuu would have been traveling towards naruto and bee, thus being much more open to a counterblitz.

Also, does this mean you concede the point that 'Gai wasn't engaging Utakata'?




Rocky said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> The initial exchange as I'm defining it is this. Gai lands a punch and upwards kick, Kakashi lands Raikiri.
> 
> Then on the next page, Kakashi reengages the one on the ground while Gai "dynamic entry" kicks the one in the air. Whichever exchange it is is honestly irrelevant. Gai landed three hits and none missed. Kakashi landed one and missed one. How did Gai demonstrate any consistency issues?


See above.




Rocky said:


> Ei has not shown to be faster than Sasuke outside of Shunshin. Sasuke read Ei's Erubo and had the sufficient speed to avoid it.


do you base those statements on all the speed hype that Ei gets from running at his targets?  Or that his 'fastest punch' involves him not using shunshin but rather running full speed at his target?  



Rocky said:


> The ability to read moves is completely and utterly useless without body speed to go with it. See Sauce vs. Lee for an explanation. Lee says that, almost word for word. The reason that Sasuke was getting blitzed at the VotE was because his 2-Tome eyes couldn't track Naruto. If Sasuke was getting overwhelmed because his body was too slow, then gaining the ability to read Naruto's movements would have changed nothing.


Sure the ability to read moves is useless if you're body can't move fast enough.  However, how does this REQUIRED SPEED compare to the speed of the person who's trying to hit you?  Obviously that required speed doesn't have to be anywhere near that person's speed. 

 Sasuke has the 2 tomoe sharingan, and KN0 Naruto was speedblitzing him.  If they have the same speed, then you are basically saying that Sasuke can speedblitz himself, or in otherwords speed and reactions have absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to speedblitz another.  Now do you think that makes sense?  Weightless Lee is just as fast as that Sasuke and by your logic, KN0 naruto.  Does it make sense that lee can speedblitz Sasuke, a person with the same speed and better reactions than himself?  i'd say obviously not.  

*Sasuke states that dodging Gaara's attacks would be impossible without the sharingan. * Does that mean that sasuke moves as fast as Gaara, and thus for some reason wouldn't be able to dodge linear charge attacks by a person of the same speed as himself?

The list goes on and on, but the point is the same every time: you don't need the same movement speed or even anything near your opponents in order to dodge someone or counterblitz people with precog.  You only need an undetermined speed that seems to either be far away from the speed of the attacker or has been completely retconned out once shinobi reach a certain level.



Rocky said:


> Kakashi's body is too slow to guard against Gai. I say that because I don't think Kakashi can physically move his body as fast as somebody who lights the air on fire when they throw punch or kick.


See above




Rocky said:


> Gai has better body speed than all of them. They can still get from point A to point B faster than him using Shunshin (because it's almost like a teleportation Jutsu, thus the name), but they (obviously) can't punch and kick as fast as him. You can throw punches & kicks at faster speeds than you can run man.


That's irrelevant.  Gai literally catches on fire even when he moves from point A to point B in the 6th gate, yet why don't any of those people catch on fire when they move from A to B?  Why didn't Ei and Tsunade catch on fire when they moved at light speed?  Heck, even 7th and 8th gated Gai's attacks don't catch on fire.  does that mean they move and attack slower than 6th gated Gai?  Not only that, but Gai has better body speed than the juubi jins?  Was juubito not continuously moving at speeds that BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could barely track?  Can those two not even track 6th gated gai since juubito wasn't on fire?  Was Juubidara not dodging 7th gated gai's assault and backpeddling as fast as 7th gated Gai could move?  Why didn't he catch on fire as well?



Rocky said:


> If 6th Gated Gai & Kakashi are fighting in CQC, *Gai is going to throw a punch  faster than anything I've seen Kakashi dodge or block,* followed by hundreds more at that speed. Not to mention, Gai is more skilled than Kakashi in Taijutsu anyway, giving him another advantage.


MP is not a factor in my analysis, so the part about the hundreds of attacks is irrelevant.  Not only that but, the bolded isn't a positive argument for your case.  Kakashi not dodging something at that speed is irrelevant if at the same time we don't have any evidence of kakashi FAILING to dodge something at that speed or greater.



Rocky said:


> You know, I really like how the chapter "The worst match up" portrays the relationship between the Sharingan & advanced Taijutsu.


It wasn't even about advanced taijutsu, it was strictly about the sharingan's inability to see through taijutsu in the way it can expose the tricks of genjutsu and ninjutsu.  In addition to that, half the reason it was the worst matchup was because sasuke lacked the bodily speed to physically react, which i've shown from the above isn't true in the instance of Gai vs Kakashi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I think Itachi would be clearly above pre-war arc kakashi in taijutsu due to Bee's performance against Sasuke and itachi's performance against bee.
> 
> However, in the war arc Kakashi can counterblitz the V2 neo pain rikudou who have both sharingan and shared vision.  he's also overall depicted as the equal of 6th gated Gai in taijutsu effectiveness (Gai obviously has much more raw speed/strength, but kakashi has the precog and raikiri).  Not sure if Itachi could match a 6th gated Gai's taijutsu even if Gai's strength was gimped to kakashi-level.



Kakashi never 'blitzed' a Jin. When you say "counter blitz" are you talking about a counter attack ? Because a counter attack doesn't have anything to do with blitzing.

Also I don't remember Kakashi being portrayed as 6 gated Gai's equal in taijutsu effectiveness. Overall ? maybe. Purely taijutsu ? Lol no.


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## ARGUS (Apr 7, 2014)

Itachi wins this


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi never 'blitzed' a Jin. When you say "counter blitz" are you talking about a counter attack ? Because a counter attack doesn't have anything to do with blitzing.


Definition of blitz: hitting your opponent before they can either physically  or mentally react.  Did or did Kakashi not hit his opponents before they were able to physically or mentally react?  A counterattack doesn't necessarily have to hit the opponent before they are able to physically or mentally react.  A counterattack doesn't even have to hit the opponent at all to be considered a counterattack.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also I don't remember Kakashi being portrayed as 6 gated Gai's equal in taijutsu effectiveness. Overall ? maybe. Purely taijutsu ? Lol no.



given my reasoning for that being the sharingan makes up for the speed advantage and raikiri makes up for the strength advantage, would you like to support your assertion with some kind of argument?


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## IchLiebe (Apr 7, 2014)

One sharingan isn't going to be a disadvantage like people are saying. Kakashi has never had problems with it. If you want to talk disadvantage Itachi has two almost blind eyes, Kakashi has a perfectly good eye and an almost blind sharigan. So if eye's play a factor here, it's in Kakashi's favor.

Speed isn't shit as everyone agrees they are almost equal.

Kakashi has strength as everyone agrees.

Taijutsu goes to Kakashi. The jins, Zabuza, and Hidan+Kakuzu fights solidify this.

Kakashi has more stamina, leagues above Itachi.

I don't see how Itachi wins.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Definition of blitz: hitting your opponent before they can either physically  or mentally react.  Did or did Kakashi not hit his opponents before they were able to physically or mentally react?  A counterattack doesn't necessarily have to hit the opponent before they are able to physically or mentally react.  A counterattack doesn't even have to hit the opponent at all to be considered a counterattack.


Ok thats not blitzing. 
I thought you meant that Kakashi was actually fuckloads faster than a V2 jin. Thats what I thought you meant by "blitz."



> given my reasoning for that being the sharingan makes up for the speed advantage and raikiri makes up for the strength advantage, would you like to support your assertion with some kind of argument?



Sharingan making up for speed advantage is speculation. Just because they were shown side by side doesn't mean they were @ the same speed. You could argue that reaction wise, Kakashi could match 6 gated Gai(but then it'd still be speculation.) But Kakashi can't move from point A to point B as fast as Gai can. Sharingan doesn't compansate for that.

Raikiri also doesn't make up for strength advantage, mainly because Raikiri is just a thrust of Kakashi's hand. Gai's strength comes from every inch of his body, he can do consecutive hits, kicks, spins and he can block incoming blows with that strength. So no, absolutely not. 

Lets also not ignore the fact that Gai is a better taijutsu user, what allows Kakashi to make up for difference in taijutsu skill ? What CQC ability does Kakashi have that compares to Asakujaku ? 

And oh, for your information, Raikiri is ninjutsu.


edit : 



IchLiebe said:


> One sharingan isn't going to be a disadvantage like people are saying. Kakashi has never had problems with it. If you want to talk disadvantage Itachi has two almost blind eyes, Kakashi has a perfectly good eye and an almost blind sharigan. So if eye's play a factor here, it's in Kakashi's favor.
> 
> Speed isn't shit as everyone agrees they are almost equal.
> 
> ...



Nah. Itachi can taijutsu head on with KCM Naruto and effortlessly dodge a blind siding B. He also manhandled Kakashi in the shouten encounter. And Itachi has shown overall better physical agility and taijutsu moves.

Itachi wins this based on display quite decisively. Not easily mind you but it is clear he is the superior shinobi.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sharingan making up for speed advantage is speculation. Just because they were shown side by side doesn't mean they were @ the same speed.


You really have to stop saying 'x statement is speculation/baseless' when I go over my reasoning in the above posts.  If you don't agree with the reasoning, it's fine, but you can't claim it's mere speculation or what i'm saying is baseless if i have formulated an argument for those points.  Next, lets not waste time attacking strawmen such as me stting 'they were moving @ the same speed'.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikiri also doesn't make up for strength advantage, mainly because Raikiri is just a thrust of Kakashi's hand. Gai's strength comes from every inch of his body, he can do consecutive hits, kicks, spins and he can block incoming blows with that strength. So no, absolutely not.


What does more damage to a target, raikiri or one of Gai's blows?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lets also not ignore the fact that Gai is a better taijutsu user, what allows Kakashi to make up for difference in taijutsu skill ? What CQC ability does Kakashi have that'd compares to Asakujaku ?
> 
> And oh, for your information, Raikiri is ninjutsu.


Can you reread what my stance is on the issue?


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Sure, but would you disagree that Gai's strike on fuu was within the initial counterblitz?  Utakata had been hit, thus would have been on guard standing and waiting for kakashi's approach.  Fuu would have been traveling towards naruto and bee, thus being much more open to a counterblitz.
> 
> Also, does this mean you concede the point that 'Gai wasn't engaging Utakata'?



Fu was never in the group of 3 traveling towards Naruto & B. I also still don't see hoe this shows that Gai would have trouble hitting a v2 Jin....



> do you base those statements on all the speed hype that Ei gets from running at his targets?  Or that his 'fastest punch' involves him not using shunshin but rather running full speed at his target?



All of Ei's hype and good speed feats come from Shunshin.



> Sure the ability to read moves is useless if you're body can't move fast enough.  However, how does this REQUIRED SPEED compare to the speed of the person who's trying to hit you?  Obviously that required speed doesn't have to be anywhere near that person's speed.



Yes it does, that is called physics. If me and you are fighting in Taijutsu range, and I throw a punch, you still have to move your arms faster than I move mine to block it. 



> Sasuke has the 2 tomoe sharingan, and KN0 Naruto was speedblitzing him.  If they have the same speed, then you are basically saying that Sasuke can speedblitz himself, or in otherwords speed and reactions have absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to speedblitz another.



Why are you talking about speed blitzing? Kakashi & Gai aren't traveling anywhere, they're already up close. From there, I don't see anything indicating that Kakashi can duck & weave Gai's punching & kicking speed. That's asinine. Kakashi could probably react to Gai's _running_ speed well enough, but his punching & kicking are *much* faster than that. 



> The list goes on and on, but the point is the same every time: you don't need the same movement speed or even anything near your opponents in order to dodge someone or counterblitz people with precog.  You only need an undetermined speed that seems to either be far away from the speed of the attacker or has been completely retconned out once shinobi reach a certain level.



By movement speed, I take it you mean running speed, and that is correct. However, in order to doge something from like a foot out, you need to move faster than it. So if Kakashi is to dodge Gai's punch from a foot out (Taijutsu range), he'll need physical ducking or weaving speed surpassing Gai's punching or kicking speed.



> That's irrelevant.  Gai literally catches on fire even when he moves from point A to point B in the 6th gate, yet why don't any of those people catch on fire when they move from A to B?



No, he doesn't. Gai blitzes at Kisame, but he doesn't light on fire. Gai's subsequent attack does, because MP is his fastest technique. 



> Why didn't Ei and Tsunade catch on fire when they moved at light speed?  Heck, even 7th and 8th gated Gai's attacks don't catch on fire.  does that mean they move and attack slower than 6th gated Gai?  Not only that, but Gai has better body speed than the juubi jins?  Was juubito not continuously moving at speeds that BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could barely track?  Can those two not even track 6th gated gai since juubito wasn't on fire?  Was Juubidara not dodging 7th gated gai's assault and backpeddling as fast as 7th gated Gai could move?  Why didn't he catch on fire as well?



Light speed travel probably doesn't burn the air for similar reasons to Shunshin. 

The rest of those people cannot punch as fast as Gai has shown to in the 6th Gate. Madara kept backing up. He was _avoiding_ a CQC exchange with Gai, and Gai never attempted Asa Kujaku in the 7th Gate anyway.



> MP is not a factor in my analysis, so the part about the hundreds of attacks is irrelevant.  Not only that but, the bolded isn't a positive argument for your case.  Kakashi not dodging something at that speed is irrelevant if at the same time we don't have any evidence of kakashi FAILING to dodge something at that speed or greater.



Asa Kujaku and the speed Gai uses to perform it is a factor in his CQC effectiveness. 



> It wasn't even about advanced taijutsu, it was strictly about the sharingan's inability to see through taijutsu in the way it can expose the tricks of genjutsu and ninjutsu.  In addition to that, half the reason it was the worst matchup was because sasuke lacked the bodily speed to physically react, which i've shown from the above isn't true in the instance of Gai vs Kakashi.



Sasuke thought Lee was using Ninjutsu & Genjutsu to hit him. He then activated the Sharingan so he could read movements, and it didn't work because Sauce's body was too slow to do anything.

This doesn't mean that Lee can run at Sasuke and kick or punch him before he can react, you know.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah. Itachi can taijutsu head on with KCM Naruto and effortlessly dodge a blind siding B.



KCM Naruto wasn't using any speed and Naruto's taijutsu isn't great. Naruto was also casually talking and wasn't putting much effort in the fight. As for Bee, ninja's jobs are to be aware of their surroundings so it would look bad if he didn't do that. When Bee pulled out his swords Itachi ran and got out of their.




> He also manhandled Kakashi in the shouten encounter. And Itachi has shown overall better physical agility and taijutsu moves.



No he didn't. Kakashi dodged his attack and Itachi grabbed him, Kakashi grabbed him and made no further effort because it was their tactic. Kakashi manhandled Obito, show me where Itachi has a feat that good. Agility means nothing as Kakashi fought the agile Hidan and still came out good.



> Itachi wins this based on display quite decisively. Not easily mind you but it is clear he is the superior shinobi.



LOLOLOLOL.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> KCM Naruto wasn't using any speed and Naruto's taijutsu isn't great. Naruto was also casually talking and wasn't putting much effort in the fight. As for Bee, ninja's jobs are to be aware of their surroundings so it would look bad if he didn't do that. When Bee pulled out his swords Itachi ran and got out of their.


So Naruto was purposefully slowing himself down ? Lol.  And B is excellent in CQC. When he pulled a similar shit on Kisame, Kisame got stabbed despite Samehada's help. 
Kakashi doesn't have comparable feats of agility or taijutsu.



> No he didn't. Kakashi dodged his attack and Itachi grabbed him, Kakashi grabbed him and made no further effort because it was their tactic. Kakashi manhandled Obito, show me where Itachi has a feat that good. Agility means nothing as Kakashi fought the agile Hidan and still came out good.


Kakashi surprise attacked Itachi, Itachi casually dodged him and put him in a head lock.
Kakashi's bunshin's purpose was to delay Itachi or keep him occupied, not get owned. So no it wasn't a part of their plan.
Hidan is shit compared to B & Naruto, and Kakashi and Hidan engaged in 1 or 2 panels and Kakashi hasn't shown any amazing moves.

Just look @ Itachi doing matrix level shit all around. Kakashi doesn't come close.



> LOLOLOLOL.



LELELEL


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## IchLiebe (Apr 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So Naruto was purposefully slowing himself down ? Lol.  And B is excellent in CQC. When he pulled a similar shit on Kisame, Kisame got stabbed despite Samehada's help.
> Kakashi doesn't have comparable feats of agility or taijutsu.



Naruto wasn't using any speed at all. He was defending because he wanted to talk. Bee is amazing in CQC but what Itachi dodged wasn't impressive. Bee threw a pencil at Kisame and Kisame still noticed it and dodged in time. That was a small object and he still dodged, Itachi dodged a person swinging a huge sword. He should've as Ninja's have heightened senses and are supposed to know everything about their surroundings. If you're talking about the sword then it's worse. Kisame had to block a guy from the front, dodge a lightning sword from his left, and block BEE from his back. And he did all of it and got a small stab wound. Itachi doesn't have shit on that feat.



> Kakashi surprise attacked Itachi, Itachi casually dodged him and put him in a head lock.



He grabbed his arm, threw a punch, Kakashi dodged, and he grabbed Kakashi head at such a fucked up angle that wasn't shit to do. He couldn't do punches to the face, kick to face or anything. He couldn't choke him out. It wasn't a headlock. Anyone could get out of the hold Itachi had there as it ain't shit. He used it to force eye contact for genjutsu.



> Kakashi's bunshin's purpose was to delay Itachi or keep him occupied, not get owned. So no it wasn't a part of their plan.
> Hidan is shit compared to B & Naruto, and Kakashi and Hidan engaged in 1 or 2 panels and Kakashi hasn't shown any amazing moves.



He didn't get owned. I'm not comparing them. I'm comparing Hidan's agility to Itachi's. Hidan attacked Kakashi from behind in midair and Kakashi still got away. 



> Just look @ Itachi doing matrix level shit all around. Kakashi doesn't come close.



Scans?


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Fu was never in the group of 3 traveling towards Naruto & B. I also still don't see hoe this shows that Gai would have trouble hitting a v2 Jin....


All 6 were traveling towards Naruto and Bee, Gai and Kakashi were able to stop 3 of them, thus naruto and bee only had to deal with 3 after the other three got counterblitzed by the master.  It shows Gai would have trouble hitting a V2 when it's not charging right at him or people behind him, a situation that the manga has said on many occasions to lower the perceptiveness and allow for a counterattack.




Rocky said:


> All of Ei's hype and good speed feats come from Shunshin.


No they don't.  *Is Ei not getting speed hype here?*  Is Ei holding back his speed against a guy who he knows is faster than him *here?*




Rocky said:


> Yes it does, that is called physics. If me and you are fighting in Taijutsu range, and I throw a punch, you still have to move your arms faster than I move mine to block it.


Not if you perceive and know you are going to throw a punch before you throw it which is called precog or reading your opponent's moves....




Rocky said:


> Why are you talking about speed blitzing? Kakashi & Gai aren't traveling anywhere, they're already up close. From there, I don't see anything indicating that Kakashi can duck & weave Gai's punching & kicking speed. That's asinine. Kakashi could probably react to Gai's _running_ speed well enough, but his punching & kicking are *much* faster than that.


that's not the point.  The point is, you've stated that you need similar speed in order to react to the opponent's attacks even if you have precog. Thus if sasuke is able to blitz KN0 despite just receiving a reaction speed increase, then by your logic, he would have to have similar bodily speed as KN0 Naruto.  Yet that's obviously false as that would mean sasuke can blitz sasuke.  

Also, why would the ratio of Gai's punching and kicking speed compared to his movement speed be any different than any other shinobi's ration of punching/kicking speed to movement speed?  




Rocky said:


> By movement speed, I take it you mean running speed, and that is correct. However, in order to doge something from like a foot out, you need to move faster than it. So if Kakashi is to dodge Gai's punch from a foot out (Taijutsu range), he'll need physical ducking or weaving speed surpassing Gai's punching or kicking speed.


No you don't.  You don't need to move faster than something in order to dodge it from a foot out unless you have to move an entire foot in order to escape the blow.  In addition to that, the whole idea of precog is to know where the attack is going to be before it even gets there, so kakashi doesn't need to even have that kind of speed if he knows where the attack will be even before it gets within a foot of him.  Finally, your logic doesn't work in the naruto world as it leads to some pretty ridiculous results like: *Deva path being far faster than SM Naruto* *Edo Madara being faster than Ei consdering in both instances*, they only begin to mentally perceive the attack when it's a couple of inches away from their faces, yet have the physical reactions to move their guard to that point which would require their arms have a speed several times that of the incoming attack.



Rocky said:


> No, he doesn't. Gai blitzes at Kisame, but he doesn't light on fire. Gai's subsequent attack does, because MP is his fastest technique.


Gai is on fire* here,* and when he kicks GMs toe in.




Rocky said:


> Light speed travel probably doesn't burn the air for similar reasons to Shunshin.
> 
> The rest of those people cannot punch as fast as Gai has shown to in the 6th Gate. Madara kept backing up. He was _avoiding_ a CQC exchange with Gai, and Gai never attempted Asa Kujaku in the 7th Gate anyway.


Gai doesn't have to use Asa kakuju, his general hits in the 6th gates ignite his limbs on fire.  Why doesn't lightspeed travel burn the air? Why doesn't shunshin burn the air?  Just because?  Hirudorah is explicitly stated to be a punch faster than any other, yet does it have anything to do with combusting?  Are you also saying that MP, a move that Gai can perform in the 5th gate involves Gai's punches being even faster than the punches of evening elephant?

Also, lighting the limbs on fire don't mean much considering even kisame is able to perceive the attack while he can't even perceive things like KCM Naruto's long range shunshin from over 15 meters away.




Rocky said:


> Asa Kujaku and the speed Gai uses to perform it is a factor in his CQC effectiveness.


Obviously, but if I explicitly state that his CQC effectiveness is on the same level as Kakashi's IF WE DISREGARD ASA KUJAKU, then incorporating that technique into Gai's CQC effectiveness has absolutely nothing to do with my stance.




Rocky said:


> Sasuke thought Lee was using Ninjutsu & Genjutsu to hit him. He then activated the Sharingan so he could read movements, and it didn't work because Sauce's body was too slow to do anything.


yep



Rocky said:


> This doesn't mean that Lee can run at Sasuke and kick or punch him before he can react, you know.


sure, which makes it even worse for you since KN0 Naruto was able to run at Sasuke and kick and punch him before he could even react, which means the gap between their respective bodily movement speeds must have been even greater than that of lee's and sasuke's pre-chuunin.  Yet Sasuke gets the 3 tomoe and the situation is completely reversed, thus proving my point that you don't need speed on par with your attacker in order to dodge and parry his strikes.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> You really have to stop saying 'x statement is speculation/baseless' when I go over my reasoning in the above posts.  If you don't agree with the reasoning, it's fine, but you can't claim it's mere speculation or what i'm saying is baseless if i have formulated an argument for those points.  Next, lets not waste time attacking strawmen such as me stting 'they were moving @ the same speed'.


Ok I might have missed your reasoning for that then. 
Any ground you can base that on ? 



> What does more damage to a target, raikiri or one of Gai's blows?


Depends on what the target is.

If its a Giant summon, or a huge boulder, then the answer is obviously Gai.
If its a human sized target then it is Raikiri with maybe some exceptions. If we are talking about Asakujaku however, then it should be Gai. So no, Raikiri doesn't make Kakashi effectively as strong as Gai, not even in striking power.

Which is just one aspect of strength. Gai can use his strength for multi purpose. Raikiri is a oneshot deal, you miss it you are fucked. Gai misses 1 punch it is no big deal.



> Can you reread what my stance is on the issue?



I did and you are wrong. You said Kakashi was depicted as Gai's equal in overall taijutsu effectiveness. It is a wrong assessment. Any argument you build on that, or any claim you make is logically wrong by default.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Depends on what the target is.
> 
> If its a Giant summon, or a huge boulder, then the answer is obviously Gai.
> If its a human sized target then it is Raikiri with maybe some exceptions. If we are talking about Asakujaku however, then it should be Gai. So no, Raikiri doesn't make Kakashi effectively as strong as Gai, not even in striking power.


If the thing of comparison is merely 'striking power' then the target is irrelevant.  The only difference that different targets would make is potentially differences is DAMAGE DEALT, and that's simply because Kakashi's raikiri does more damage over a smaller AoE than Gai's hits.

I already mentioned that my analysis excludes MP, so there's no point in bringing it up unless you want to argue against something i am not.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which is just one aspect of strength. Gai can use his strength for multi purpose. Raikiri is a oneshot deal, you miss it you are fucked. Gai misses 1 punch it is no big deal.


raikiri doesn't disappear if you miss, it only disappears if you exert the power of the attack is exerted on an object.  So they are essentially the same, unless both are going to be landing a ton of hits on their opponents in CQC.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I did and you are wrong. You said Kakashi was depicted as Gai's equal in overall taijutsu effectiveness. It is a wrong assessment. Any argument you build on that, or any claim you make is logically wrong by default.


well first off, if i use raikiri as part of Kakashi's tools to equal Gai, then i don't literally mean Kakashi's only using taijutsu.  Next, I explicitly stated excluding MP, so why would you include the use of that technique in your counterargument?


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## Joakim3 (Apr 7, 2014)

I'd wager it on Itachi with an extreme diff win 6/10 times. 

His speed is what has it going for but if he draws the fight out Kakashi will take it as his stamina his significantly better than Itachi's


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> If the thing of comparison is merely 'striking power' then the target is irrelevant.  The only difference that different targets would make is potentially differences is DAMAGE DEALT, and that's simply because Kakashi's raikiri does more damage over a smaller AoE than Gai's hits.


I disagree. Kakashi's attack definitely is more penetrative, but that doesn't exactly replace strength all together.  Isn't that what we are comparing here ? 

So yes, if they are up against a giant summon, Gai can take it out faster than Kakashi can do it with Raikiri.



> I already mentioned that my analysis excludes MP, so there's no point in bringing it up unless you want to argue against something i am not.


Well then it doesn't make any sense to claim that Kakashi is as effective as Gai in taijutsu when you grant one the advantage of ninjutsu and then take away others taijutsu moveset. 



> raikiri doesn't disappear if you miss, it only disappears if you exert the power of the attack is exerted on an object.  So they are essentially the same, unless both are going to be landing a ton of hits on their opponents in CQC.


Thats true, but I haven't seen Sasuke or Kakashi perform consecutive attacks with it, so I assumed it is impractical to maintain it. Perhaps because it drains them ?

Besides, my point is that, Raikiri is like a punch. A single strike. Strength in general is more than just a punch. So a single attack doesn't make up for everything else thats missing. 
Like for example, Gai's strength would allow him to block incoming hits from someone equally strong without trouble. Kakashi on the other hand wouldn't be able to do the same thing by just using Raikiri.

However If you had said "purely based on damage output per strike" then I'd agree with you. 



> well first off, if i use raikiri as part of Kakashi's tools to equal Gai, then i don't literally mean Kakashi's only using taijutsu.  Next, I explicitly stated excluding MP, so why would you include the use of that technique in your counterargument?



Then what does "Not sure if Itachi could match a 6th gated Gai's taijutsu even if Gai's strength was gimped to kakashi-level" mean ?   

You are implying that Kakashi, when restricted to taijutsu is as effective as 6 gated Gai(minus asakujaku and enhanced strength).

And based of what ? Your interpretation of their portrayal ?


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> It shows Gai would have trouble hitting a V2 when it's not charging right at him or people behind him, a situation that the manga has said on many occasions to lower the perceptiveness and allow for a counterattack.



You aren't being clear. How does any of that prove Gai would have trouble hitting a v2 Jin? He kicked one, and was smacked away by the one that dodged Kakashi's attack. You may have said it, but I'm having trouble understanding your point.



> No they don't.  *Is Ei not getting speed hype here?*  Is Ei holding back his speed against a guy who he knows is faster than him *here?*



The first is Shunshin, the second is unclear, but also probably Shunshin, because the Raikage's maximum speed punches are thrown off of Ration: Shunshin no Jutsu.



> Not if you perceive and know you are going to throw a punch before you throw it which is called precog or reading your opponent's moves....



Even if you know what your opponent will do, you still must posses the body speed to do something about it.



> Yet that's obviously false as that would mean sasuke can blitz sasuke.



I think this may be possible.  

It has something to do with the reason Kakashi cannot use Raikiri without the Sharingan. He goes to fast during that technique to notice what's going on around him.

Sasuke can probably move as fast as KN0, but he couldn't really do anything other than run into things. He couldn't fight effectively at that speed with only the two tome boost, while Naruto can with the Kyubi Chakra boost.



> Also, why would the ratio of Gai's punching and kicking speed compared to his movement speed be any different than any other shinobi's ration of punching/kicking speed to movement speed?



Technique, unless you believe Naruto or Ei have the speed to literally punch hundreds of fireballs at their opponents. 



> No you don't.  You don't need to move faster than something in order to dodge it from a foot out unless you have to move an entire foot in order to escape the blow.  In addition to that, the whole idea of precog is to know where the attack is going to be before it even gets there, so kakashi doesn't need to even have that kind of speed if he knows where the attack will be even before it gets within a foot of him.



I'm starting to wonder...do you think the difference in body speed between Gennin Sauce & Gennin Lee is actually _larger_ than that of Kakashi and 6th Gated Gai?

Sauce had a 3 in speed, while Lee had a 4...but he had weights. Sauce was too slow to do anything even though he could read Lee's moves.

Kakashi has a 4.5 and Gai has a 5...but he has six gates activated. 

Please be reasonable here.... 



> Gai is on fire* here,* and when he kicks GMs toe in.



Wrong link I think.



> Why doesn't lightspeed travel burn the air? Why doesn't shunshin burn the air?  Just because?



Apparently. It's the observation I've made, because anything moving faster than Gai's punch/kick should burn the air.



> Hirudorah is explicitly stated to be a punch faster than any other, yet does it have anything to do with combusting?  Are you also saying that MP, a move that Gai can perform in the 5th gate involves Gai's punches being even faster than the punches of evening elephant?



I think those punches have more do do with Gai's strength in the final gates.



> Also, lighting the limbs on fire don't mean much considering even kisame is able to perceive the attack while he can't even perceive things like KCM Naruto's long range shunshin from over 15 meters away.



KCM Naruto's body flicker probably does move faster than Gai's punch. The body flicker is similar to teleportation, as its name would suggest.



> Obviously, but if I explicitly state that his CQC effectiveness is on the same level as Kakashi's IF WE DISREGARD ASA KUJAKU, then incorporating that technique into Gai's CQC effectiveness has absolutely nothing to do with my stance.



This was your original statements regarding the matter:



			
				You said:
			
		

> he's also overall depicted as the equal of 6th gated Gai in taijutsu effectiveness (Gai obviously has much more raw speed/strength, but kakashi has the precog and raikiri).



So you never mentioned disregarding Asa Kujaku when I challenged the point, and if you want to disregard the Jutsu in your comparison, you also have to disregard the speed Gai uses to actually perform the technique.



> sure, which makes it even worse for you since KN0 Naruto was able to run at Sasuke and kick and punch him before he could even react.



Sasuke originally _did_ react though. He actually blocked KN0's first punch, but Naruto just smashed through his guard.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You aren't being clear. How does any of that prove Gai would have trouble hitting a v2 Jin? He kicked one, and was smacked away by the one that dodged Kakashi's attack. You may have said it, but I'm having trouble understanding your point.


Since it shows that Gai's situation where he kicked the jin =/= kakashi's situation where the jin dodged him, then it puts them on equal footing by showing that once the jins are on the defensive, they don't get blitzed by Gai or kakashi, rather they slap them both away with their tails.  




Rocky said:


> The first is Shunshin, the second is unclear, but also probably Shunshin, because the Raikage's maximum speed punches are thrown off of Ration: Shunshin no Jutsu.


If running at your opponent and using shunshin aren't mutually exclusive, then how can we tell when shunshin is being used and when it isn't?




Rocky said:


> Even if you know what your opponent will do, you still must posses the body speed to do something about it.


Sure, but that's not what you are arguing, you are arguing that you require the same speed as your opponent in order to do something about it which is not true.




Rocky said:


> I think this may be possible.
> 
> It has something to do with the reason Kakashi cannot use Raikiri without the Sharingan. He goes to fast during that technique to notice what's going on around him.
> 
> Sasuke can probably move as fast as KN0, but he couldn't really do anything other than run into things. He couldn't fight effectively at that speed with only the two tome boost, while Naruto can with the Kyubi Chakra boost.


Kakashi, sasuke, lee and pretty much EVERY speedster never have problems running into things when they move quickly.  The thing that they have problems with is running right at the opponent in a straight line which is required for raikiri and chidori.   Lee without the sharingan has absolutely no problems running at the same speed as Sasuke, the thing he has problems with is *running right at his opponent.*  That's why we have so many instances of people getting counterblitzed when they try to run straight at their opponent. However, if it's simply moving at those speeds, they have no trouble doing it as seen by lee running circles around gaara and hitting him from openings, same as sasuke.  

It makes absolutely no sense for a mere KN0 Naruto w/o any doujutsu to have better reactions than Sasuke w/ his 2 tomoe sharingan.  Sasuke basically stays alive against gaara strictly because he has the better reactions afforded by the sharingan.

In addition to that, *3 tomoe Sasuke clearly has better reactions than KN1 Naruto which is why he can see what Naruto is going to do before Naruto can even do it, but at the same time he's clearly far slower than Naruto seeing as naruto is popping up behind him,* and sasuke is barely able to dodge despite knowing what naruto is going to do in advance.  Thus it again illustrates my point that you don't need to be anywhere near as fast as your opponent in order to dodge and counter them if you have the sharingan.

then there's the author's intent.  Do you believe that kishi had it in his mind that Sasuke was actually much faster than weightless lee, but simply chose not to move at much greater speeds?  Because that's what you'd have to agree with in order for your stance to be true.



Rocky said:


> Technique, unless you believe Naruto or Ei have the speed to literally punch hundreds of fireballs at their opponents.


If its pertaining to just MP, then it has nothing to do with my analysis as I've explicitly stated MP is not included or if Gai doesn't use MP.



Rocky said:


> I'm starting to wonder...do you think the difference in body speed between Gennin Sauce & Gennin Lee is actually _larger_ than that of Kakashi and 6th Gated Gai?
> 
> Sauce had a 3 in speed, while Lee had a 4...but he had weights. Sauce was too slow to do anything even though he could read Lee's moves.
> 
> ...


No way, the manga explicitly stated that they have roughly the same movement speed, so their speeds are the same. 

Now here's a question for you: do you think 6th gated Gai would blitz Kakashi as bad as KN0 Naruto was blitzing 2 tomoe Sasuke?  Then from there, take away Sasuke's sharingan buff altogether, raise Naruto's speed to a level that would allow him to blitz KN0 Naruto, and tell me if you think the difference between 6th gated Gai and sharingan kakashi would be even greater than the difference between those two.




Rocky said:


> Wrong link I think.


No that's the one, looks to me that his kick is on fire.




Rocky said:


> Apparently. It's the observation I've made, because anything moving faster than Gai's punch/kick should burn the air.


That's a circular argument.  



Rocky said:


> I think those punches have more do do with Gai's strength in the final gates.


It can't be about strength.  Gates creating fire or a shockwave have always been about speed of the strikes that create those phenomina.  You can give Gai the strength to benchpress a planet, but if he only punches at the speed of a normal human, he's not going to create anything with mere punches.




Rocky said:


> KCM Naruto's body flicker probably does move faster than Gai's punch. The body flicker is similar to teleportation, as its name would suggest.


Except we both know that it's only similar in name, the mechanics of the jutsu have nothing to do with S/T teleportation, thus naruto must be traveling from A to B through normal space and thus he's not excempt from the laws of physics of passing through air at those speeds.....




Rocky said:


> This was your original statements regarding the matter:
> 
> So you never mentioned disregarding Asa Kujaku when I challenged the point, and if you want to disregard the Jutsu in your comparison, you also have to disregard the speed Gai uses to actually perform the technique.


sure, i can accept that.




Rocky said:


> Sasuke originally _did_ react though. He actually blocked KN0's first punch, but Naruto just smashed through his guard.


Yet what happens later?  It's also perfectly in line with what lee said about frontal blitzes: that it allows your opponent a much easier time to counterattack.  Naruto was so fast, sasuke couldn't counterattack, but he could block the blow.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

I've got my response to the full post saved, but let's see if we can settle this faster.

When Sasuke first fought Lee, we both agree that Sasuke lacked the body speed to do anything about Lee's attacks, regardless of the ability to read Lee's moves, correct?

Well, put Kakashi in Sasuke's place and Gai in Lee's. We both admit that Kakashi is capable of reading Gai's moves with the Sharingan, but so was Sasuke in regards to Lee's moves. 

So, do you think that the gap between Weighted Lee's and Sasuke's body speed back then is larger than the gap between _Gate 6_ Gai & Kakashi's?


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## Santoryu (Apr 7, 2014)

I'ld like to think that 6th gated Gai is definitely faster than Kakashi; though bringing up the outdated databook in regards to Kakashi's speed doesn't make a lot of sense since the speed of his movements in the war have been insane, heck, even before the war started we see Kakashi sneaking up behind Obito-and yes, Kishimoto views this as a speed-feat, hence Obito's response.

The anime made it more clear, Kakashi actually did land a hit on the Sharingan-Rinnegan equipped Jins with Raikiri. What this proves is that Kakashi has no problems dealing with their striking speed/movements, but it also means he's efficient enough to land the first hit.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> I'ld like to think that 6th gated Gai is definitely faster than Kakashi; though bringing up the outdated databook in regards to Kakashi's speed doesn't make a lot of sense since the speed of his movements in the war have been insane, heck, even before the war started we see Kakashi sneaking up behind Obito-and yes, Kishimoto views this as a speed-feat, hence Obito's response.



I believe that even though Kakashi has gotten faster since DBIII, Gai has as well. If anything, Gai may have gained more speed than Kakashi has, considering Gai trains almost exclusively physically, while Kakashi must also work on his Ninjutsu. 



> The anime made it more clear, Kakashi actually did land a hit on the Sharingan-Rinnegan equipped Jins with Raikiri. What this proves is that Kakashi has no problems dealing with their striking speed/movements, but it also means he's efficient enough to land the first hit.



I did say he was able to land a hit (and so was Gai), but Gai did as well.

Gai's CQC feats have generally been above Kakashi (not that Kakashi is sub par in the area).


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I've got my response to the full post saved, but let's see if we can settle this faster.
> 
> When Sasuke first fought Lee, we both agree that Sasuke lacked the body speed to do anything about Lee's attacks, regardless of the ability to read Lee's moves, correct?


agreed



Rocky said:


> Well, put Kakashi in Sasuke's place and Gai in Lee's. We both admit that Kakashi is capable of reading Gai's moves with the Sharingan, but so was Sasuke in regards to Lee's moves.
> 
> So, do you think that the gap between Weighted Lee's and Sasuke's body speed back then is larger than the gap between _Gate 6_ Gai & Kakashi's?


that comparison is fallacious because Kakashi's got the three tomoe while Sasuke only had the two.

A better comparison would be the one I mentioned: VoTe.  KN0 gives naruto* a high enough speed increase * that he can speedblitz someone with both unweighted lee's speed, and the superior reactions than lee due to the 2 tomoe.  Three tomoe is a huge step up from the two tomoe, it allows Sasuke to completely change the tides around by letting him see where naruto will be before naruto's even there.  It's not even enhanced perception anymore, it's precognition, and that allows him to blitz KN0 naruto despite the big speed gap.  Then Naruto is able to close that gap with KN1 which makes him so fast that sasuke can't both dodge and counter naruto's attacks, he can only dodge.

So basically in terms of speed, KN1>>>>>KN0>>>>> weightless lee, and that's the kind of rough speed gap that im proposing exists between Kakashi and 6th gated Gai.  

Plus if you reread that chapter 37, Lee only hits sasuke twice.  The first was when sasuke didn't even have his sharingan activated and the second was when sasuke went charging right at lee (which makes it easier for lee to counter) and with the mentality that lee was using some kind of ninjutsu or genjutsu to get around sasuke's guard.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I disagree. Kakashi's attack definitely is more penetrative, but that doesn't exactly replace strength all together.  Isn't that what we are comparing here ?
> 
> So yes, if they are up against a giant summon, Gai can take it out faster than Kakashi can do it with Raikiri.


We are arguing how powerful both of their attacks are.   I'll repeat myself in hopes that you'll respond to my argument this round: power does not mean its does more damage to everything equally, it merely means that if both attacks were to exert their full force on an object, Raikiri would do more damage.

In terms of power, all we have to do is use Gai vs shouten kisame.  Gai lands a 6th gated flaming kick right on kisame's face, yet kisame doesn't die from it (which is why he needs to follow up with MP) and kisame's face is in tact after the attack.  Replace Gai's kick with raikiri, and what happens?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well then it doesn't make any sense to claim that Kakashi is as effective as Gai in taijutsu when you grant one the advantage of ninjutsu and then take away others taijutsu moveset.


Why not?  If I make explicit the exceptions that have to be made, I have no idea why making a true statement doesn't make sense.  We do this all the time in versus threads via the restriction stipulation.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats true, but I haven't seen Sasuke or Kakashi perform consecutive attacks with it, so I assumed it is impractical to maintain it. Perhaps because it drains them ?


As a kid, Kakashi drilled through some 19 shadow clones using one chidori, i think that's enough evidence to claim that raikiri doesn't disappear after a missed thrust.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Besides, my point is that, Raikiri is like a punch. A single strike. Strength in general is more than just a punch. So a single attack doesn't make up for everything else thats missing.
> Like for example, Gai's strength would allow him to block incoming hits from someone equally strong without trouble. Kakashi on the other hand wouldn't be able to do the same thing by just using Raikiri.
> 
> However If you had said "purely based on damage output per strike" then I'd agree with you.


I think that's what i said: their damage output is the same.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then what does "Not sure if Itachi could match a 6th gated Gai's taijutsu even if Gai's strength was gimped to kakashi-level" mean ?
> 
> You are implying that Kakashi, when restricted to taijutsu is as effective as 6 gated Gai(minus asakujaku and enhanced strength).
> 
> And based of what ? Your interpretation of their portrayal ?


It means that Gai's 6th gated taijutsu allows him the speed to overcome itachi's own abilities in that regard.  And that's what I'm implying about kakashi, that his sharingan makes up for what he lacks in the speed department using the performance against the jins as an example of that.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> that comparison is fallacious because Kakashi's got the three tomoe while Sasuke only had the two.



What does it matter. 

Reading a move is reading a move, and Sasuke was capable of reading it with the 2-Tome.



> So basically in terms of speed, KN1>>>>>KN0>>>>> weightless lee, and that's the kind of rough speed gap that im proposing exists between Kakashi and 6th gated Gai.



So you believe the difference between KN1 and 3-Tome Sauce is roughly equivalent to the difference between 6 Gated Gai & Kakashi, thus it will play out the same...

Errm why? Sasuke is faster than Base Naruto, while Base Gai on the other hand is faster than Kakashi. Furthermore, why is the KN1 cloak as good a speed boost as 6/8 gates?



> Plus if you reread that chapter 37, Lee only hits sasuke twice.  The first was when sasuke didn't even have his sharingan activated and the second was when sasuke went charging right at lee (which makes it easier for lee to counter) and with the mentality that lee was using some kind of ninjutsu or genjutsu to get around sasuke's guard.



I read it. Lee said that even though Sauce could read his moves, he didn't have the body speed to counter them. That statement is a focal point of my argument.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What does it matter.
> 
> Reading a move is reading a move, and Sasuke was capable of reading it with the 2-Tome.


Reread the VoTe fight and you'll see exactly how it matters.




Rocky said:


> So you believe the difference between KN1 and 3-Tome Sauce is roughly equivalent to the difference between 6 Gated Gai & Kakashi, thus it will play out the same...
> 
> Errm why? Sasuke is faster than Base Naruto, while Base Gai on the other hand is faster than Kakashi. Furthermore, why is the KN1 cloak as good a speed boost as 6/8 gates?


Because of the explanation in the post that you've literally just quoted.  

KN0 Naruto is far faster than weightless lee considering he can speedblitz someone who has the same speed with much better reactions.
KN1 Naruto is far faster than KN0 Naruto since he is able to fight on the same level as a guy who was blitzing KN0.  




Rocky said:


> I read it. Lee said that even though Sauce could read his moves, he didn't have the body speed to counter them. That statement is a focal point of my argument.


Yet the two instances that lee uses to infer that have nothing to do with how an even fight would go since the first instance has sasuke w/o sharingan and the second instance has sasuke expecting a nin/genjutsu and charging at lee, a perfect setup for a counterblitz.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Reread the VoTe fight and you'll see exactly how it matters.



I did, and I don't see how it contradicts what I said..



> KN0 Naruto is far faster than weightless lee considering he can speedblitz someone who has the same speed with much better reactions.
> KN1 Naruto is far faster than KN0 Naruto since he is able to fight on the same level as a guy who was blitzing KN0.



How are you tying this in with Kakashi & Gai.



> And the second instance has sasuke expecting a nin/genjutsu and charging at lee, a perfect setup for a counterblitz.



...Sasuke charged in, but he had the Sharingan to read Lee's counter-attack. He just couldn't do anything about it because his body was too slow, like Lee said.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I did, and I don't see how it contradicts what I said..


Sasuke is able to see what naruto will do before he even does it.  If he sees what lee is going to do before lee even does it, then he has more time to physically react, and thus the required bodily speed he needs in order to dodge/ counter is lowered.




Rocky said:


> How are you tying this in with Kakashi & Gai.


Because the only way my view wouldn't work is if 6th gated Gai would be significantly faster than what it would require to speedblitz a person who's fast enough to speedblitz kakashi w/o a sharingan.  and that's definitely not implied by his speed feats in the manga.




Rocky said:


> ...Sasuke charged in, but he had the Sharingan to read Lee's counter-attack. He just couldn't do anything about it because his body was too slow, like Lee said.


Regardless if you have a sharingan or not, charging in reduces your ability to react, the sharingan merely provides greater reactions which makes up for that inability.  He was looking for ninjutsu/genjutsu.  Sure in that situation with those factors sasuke's body was too slow, but reverse it and have lee charge at him instead.  Does the same thing happen? No.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> If he sees what lee is going to do before lee even does it, then he has more time to physically react, and thus the required bodily speed he needs in order to dodge/ counter is lowered.



Sasuke "saw what Lee was going to do before he did it." That's what "reading a move" is.



> Because the only way my view wouldn't work is if 6th gated Gai would be significantly faster than what it would require to speedblitz a person who's fast enough to speedblitz kakashi w/o a sharingan.  and that's definitely not implied by his speed feats in the manga.



What?

I don't see how this example works. 6 Gates provides a much greater speed boost to somebody than a 1-tailed cloak, and Gai was already faster than Kakashi to begin with, unlike Naruto with Sasuke. 



> but reverse it and have lee charge at him instead.  Does the same thing happen? No.



Well of course, but nobody said Gai would speed blitz Kakashi like that.  If they start up close, there is no "charging in."


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke "saw what Lee was going to do before he did it." That's what "reading a move" is.


that's not what reading a move is.  Sasuke had never seen moves before they happened until he got his 3 tomoe at VoTe.  Before that, reading a move was merely perceiving it well.



Rocky said:


> What?
> 
> I don't see how this example works. 6 Gates provides a much greater speed boost to somebody than a 1-tailed cloak, and Gai was already faster than Kakashi to begin with, unlike Naruto with Sasuke.


Wait what?  what do you base the 6 gates providing a much greater boost on?  

And Gai being faster than kakashi would help my case since Naruto's massive speed advantage with only 1 tail would be even greater since it's powering up naruto who starts with a slower speed than sasuke.



Rocky said:


> Well of course, but nobody said Gai would speed blitz Kakashi like that.  If they start up close, there is no "charging in."


If there is no charging in for either of them, then the same factors that contributed to sasuke getting hit aren't present.


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## Rocky (Apr 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> that's not what reading a move is.  Sasuke had never seen moves before they happened until he got his 3 tomoe at VoTe.  Before that, reading a move was merely perceiving it well.



Reading a move, to me, is knowing what that move is going to be before it's made. Sure, the 3rd Tome allowed him to read moves based on the slightest muscle twitch, but that doesn't mean he was incapable of it before...



> Wait what?  what do you base the 6 gates providing a much greater boost on?



Why is the 6th Gate > the 1-Tailed Cloak? 

You're kidding, right? Asa Kujaku...



> If there is no charging in for either of them, then the same factors that contributed to sasuke getting hit aren't present.



This doesn't falsify Lee's statement though, and it sounds like you believe that Sauce actually has the speed to react, which would contradict the point of the chapter..


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## Jad (Apr 8, 2014)

There is no way on hell on earth is Kakashi or Itachi for that matter, not getting pummeled by 6th Gated Gai (/w strength equaled). The speed is way beyond their ability to counter on perceiving the direction of the strikes alone. Hell, there is no way I can justifiably see them beating him (/w equal strength) in a base Taijutsu match - although it will be harder for Gai. Gai already schooled Obito with his Nunchukus in a skirmish, the guy couldn't land a touch with his Kamui ability. Gai's speed, whether they both have 5/5 or not, will always be better (not heaps) like slightly better, then Kakashi's speed. Since Kishi built him on being physically peaked on all stats and being a training freak. So to argue 6th Gated Gai would have a hard time beating Kakashi in taijutsu is just wrong in my opinion(w/ strength equaled). With strength not equaled, one hit and their guard is broken.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> We are arguing how powerful both of their attacks are.   I'll repeat myself in hopes that you'll respond to my argument this round: power does not mean its does more damage to everything equally, it merely means that if both attacks were to exert their full force on an object, Raikiri would do more damage.
> 
> In terms of power, all we have to do is use Gai vs shouten kisame.  Gai lands a 6th gated flaming kick right on kisame's face, yet kisame doesn't die from it (which is why he needs to follow up with MP) and kisame's face is in tact after the attack.  Replace Gai's kick with raikiri, and what happens?



I already said that pound per pound Raikiri is more damaging than a single blow from Gai.

I am just pointing out the error in the notion that Raikiri makes Kakashi effectively as strong as Gai. It doesn't. 



> Why not?  If I make explicit the exceptions that have to be made, I have no idea why making a true statement doesn't make sense.  We do this all the time in versus threads via the restriction stipulation.


Because you pretty much destroyed  the context of "taijutsu." Thats why it doesn't make sense anymore.

And Gai without Morning peacock is still superior to Kakashi with only Raikiri, in CQC prowess.
So I am not sure how you claim that statement to be true.



> As a kid, Kakashi drilled through some 19 shadow clones using one chidori, i think that's enough evidence to claim that raikiri doesn't disappear after a missed thrust.


Fair enough. I still don't think Raikiri can replace a taijutsu moveset by itself though.



> I think that's what i said: their damage output is the same.


I am not sure where you said it but your initial statement involved their strength being effectively the same. 
I guess the wording wasn't accurate.



> It means that Gai's 6th gated taijutsu allows him the speed to overcome itachi's own abilities in that regard.  And that's what I'm implying about kakashi, that his sharingan makes up for what he lacks in the speed department using the performance against the jins as an example of that.


Unless 6 gated Gai and Kakashi duked it out, there is no way to know how Kakashi'd fare against him.  Their performances against jins don't prove anything in relation to each other. 

You are holding on to things that makes sense for you and deliberately ignoring everything else.
Like for example Kakashi & 6 gated Gai were running side by side, that means they have overall equal foot speed. They blocked the same tail swipe, that means they have equal strength.
But logic dictates that there is no way Kakashi can be as fast as Gai on foot nor he can have comparable strength.


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Reading a move, to me, is knowing what that move is going to be before it's made. Sure, the 3rd Tome allowed him to read moves based on the slightest muscle twitch, but that doesn't mean he was incapable of it before...


I've never seen where it was implied that the 2 tomoe sharingan shows them what will happen before it actually happens.  All i saw is it giving enhanced reflexes and perception, being able to perceive things in sharp detail while moving at high speeds and while things are moving quickly.




Rocky said:


> Why is the 6th Gate > the 1-Tailed Cloak?
> 
> You're kidding, right? Asa Kujaku...


Asa Kujaku is a technique, and is not part of my analysis.  We've both stated this many times, so it's irrelevant.  We are talking about the physical stats of both combatants while under the affects of both powerups alone.

We are talking about the speed boosts that it gives both parties.  Please go and show how the 6th gate is superior in this regard.  If you want, ill go first.  *KN1 Naruto (someone much slower than base gai) vs Orochimaru.*  And that's not even talking about the * strength boost it gives *  Or you can use the fact that KN1 Naruto at VoTe would logically speedblitz weightless lee to a higher degree than what the 6th gate has ever done to someone.



Rocky said:


> This doesn't falsify Lee's statement though, and it sounds like you believe that Sauce actually has the speed to react, which would contradict the point of the chapter..


The point of the chapter is that even if you can see and perceive, it doesn't necessarily mean you can physically react.  I don't see how it follows that Sasuke would be incapable of reacting in every situation from that alone.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 9, 2014)

Shouldn't be much of a difference between Itachi and Kakashi at this point, where Taijutsu is concerned.

Itachi is probably a bit a faster, but it's hard to say how much that would count for against another Sharingan user.

Kakashi has a good deal more stamina, but it's offset by the fact that his body isn't naturally suited for Sharingan operation. That issue seems to have diminished if not evaporated completely by this point, though.

Probably it would either end in a draw or in favor of whoever Kishi feels needs to win the particular fight.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I've never seen where it was implied that the 2 tomoe sharingan shows them what will happen before it actually happens.



It's possible to read & predict moves without any Dojutsu. It can come with experience. Dojutsu just makes it far, far easier to do. 



> Asa Kujaku is a technique, and is not part of my analysis.  We've both stated this many times, so it's irrelevant.  We are talking about the physical stats of both combatants while under the affects of both powerups alone.



This is pointless then. Gai uses speed to generate Asa Kujaku. If you're trying to compare the 6th Gate's speed to something, you don't just ignore speed feats.

This is like saying Deidara has more DC than Kurama, but Bijudama is "not part of my analysis." 



> The point of the chapter is that even if you can see and perceive, it doesn't necessarily mean you can physically react.



Even if you can read a move, your body may lack the speed to do anything about it.


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's possible to read & predict moves without any Dojutsu. It can come with experience. Dojutsu just makes it far, far easier to do.


Sure, I don't see how that contradicts what I've said though.




Rocky said:


> This is pointless then. Gai uses speed to generate Asa Kujaku. If you're trying to compare the 6th Gate's speed to something, you don't just ignore speed feats.
> 
> This is like saying Deidara has more DC than Kurama, but Bijudama is "not part of my analysis."


Asa Kujaku is a technique, it's not 6th gated Gai's normal movement or striking speed, and when he uses that technique, his body becomes more damaged.  so it's obviously not pointless unless Gai literally moves with that speed at all times in that gate.  

Next, I have no idea why stating Deidara has more DC than Kurama if you bar bijuudama is pointless.  For one, it's a true statement, and it gives you insight into situations that those stipulations cater to.  Just like how Gai's non-MP speed would give us insight into situations where he doesn't use that attack, like against the V2 jinks which is EXACTLY what we were discussing.




Rocky said:


> Even if you can read a move, your body may lack the speed to do anything about it.


Sure, who's arguing against that?


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## JuicyG (Sep 30, 2014)

I would give it to Kakashi extreme high diff....


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 3, 2014)

It's a 50/50 split, itachi maybe a tad bit faster but it's an inconsequential advantage. Itachi and Kakashi are exactly the same character when it comes to physical abilities in taijutsu, except Kakashi has better variety of feats e.g. using a variety of weapons like chains, swords and electrically charged kunai.


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> The title says it all .
> 
> *We saw these two duke it out in hand to hand combat before, but it wasn't full fledged. If Itachi and Kakashi had a battle with nothing but Taijutsu, who do YOU think would come out on top?*
> 
> ...





Kakashi trained enough with Gai and learned the strong-fist style to certain extents. I think this is a very close one. But gates are not restricted and Kakashi can open up the 1st gate which probably gives him the close win.

Kakashi high-diff


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