# Minato and Naruto vs Obito, Madara and Nagato.



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 8, 2013)

Edo Minato and Naruto vs Obito, Edo Madara and Nagato.

*Conditions:* Naruto starts in BSM and Minato starts in BM.
Minato has both his arms. Nagato is healthy and mobile. Naruto has sealing tags.

*Restrictions:* None, except the Juubi.

*Knowledge:* Manga.

*Battlefield and Starting Distance:* Like it on this page.

Naruto and Minato are standing where Naruto/Bee are. Team Rikudou are standing where Tobi is.

*State of Mind:* IC.



*Spoiler*: _If you think Naruto and Minato stomp, then add one (or more) of the following_ 




- Nagato has his Pain Rikudou with him and can fight alongside them.

- Obito and Madara can use all Six Path jutsu feats shown.

- Obito has his Pain Rikudou with him and can fight alongside them. But *cannot* use the Six Path jutsu for 10 minutes.





EDIT

Obito *is not* tagged with Hiraishin.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

What state is Obito in? he's the decision maker 

Either way... this fight degenerates into PS, Bijudama, Mokuton, Gedo Mazo & Shinra Tensei nuking with a comically massive landscape sterilized


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> What state is Obito in? he's the decision maker



Its Rinnegan Tobi, like all the fighters ITT, he starts perfectly fine.


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## Kai (Sep 8, 2013)

Senjutsu bijuudama wipes Madara and Nagato out, and it's on a completely different level than the super bijuudama Naruto and Bee used against Gedo Mazo.



So imagine that but scaled exponentially larger because of Yin Kurama and exponentially stronger because of senjutsu.

Tobi fazes with Kamui. Naruto and Minato rely on their speed to destroy him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> Senjutsu bijuudama wipes Madara and Nagato out, and it's on a completely different level than the super bijuudama Naruto and Bee used against Gedo Mazo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Any reason why Preta Path or Shinra Tensei (from one or all Rinnegan users) can't negate that?

Nagato has absorbed and repelled Senjutsu imbued Ninjutsu several times when he fought Naruto. In fact Madara even absorbed a Senjutsu imbued jutsu too.

It is as Madara told Oonoki, with the Rinnegan the only way to really defeat a Rinnegan user is to get up close and personal. So while it is possible for _this_ Naruto to do this, more so when he's backed up by Minato... I doubt Naruto and Minato are going to win by repeating the same mistakes Naruto, Oonoki and Jiraiya have made against the Rinnegan (the Preta Path power).

Speed isn't enough to take Tobi, we both know that. Otherwise Minato would've taken him out a long time ago, and Ei, even Naruto, wouldn't have had so much trouble with Obito. Especially when he uses Kamui, wherein he can just slip into the ground and appear elsewhere; he can keep doing that.


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## Bonly Jr. (Sep 8, 2013)

Rinnegan Obito is already tagged by Minato. He gets blitzed right off the get-go. GG.

Nagato just gets overwhelmed by TBB's and speed.

Father and son rape Madara after.

GG's all round.


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

Since this is not obito with Juubi, I think they have a really good chance. 
Naruto & Minato are stronger than any of these IMO, and each of them can defeat any of the
other team, but Naruto will struggle with obito's Kamui!

but, I'm not sure about all of them at the same time. @.@
maybe if it's 3 Vs 3, that will be more fair. @.@


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## Misaki Yata (Sep 8, 2013)

*Minato blitz Obito like before.

Naruto blitz Nagato.

Madara gets gang banged by farther and son.*


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## Psp123789 (Sep 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Any reason why Preta Path or Shinra Tensei (from one or all Rinnegan users) can't negate that?



If they try to absorb the TBB they get turned into stone as it should have lots of sage chakra in it. Nagato is the only one who has shown to that and I doubt he can negate it and even if he can  

*Look how fast he can charge another one* 

Also TBB barrage is charged almost instantly.
*Look how fast he can charge another one*

Also using ST leaves nagato open for a blitz.by minato or naruto
*Look how fast he can charge another one*

As for the thread minato and naruto take this as they are each superior to any person on the other team, obito's kamui is a problem but since Obito is already tagged he gets blitzed from the start by minato, naruto kills nagato with a SM TBB, or a blitz, and then they take out edo madara.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 8, 2013)

^ Yeah.

 Nagato will get annihilated by Bijuudama as that has way too much Natural Energy.

 Madara will get blown to pieces. He was far away from the explosion and his Susanoo was reverted back to a Partial Susanoo.

 Tobi loses due to speed blitz. Rinnegan Obito isn't that much faster if at all faster than MS Obito and Base Minato beat MS Obito (practically).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 8, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> If they try to absorb the TBB they get turned into stone as it should have lots of sage chakra in it. Nagato is the only one who has shown to that and I doubt he can negate it and even if he can
> 
> *Look how fast he can charge another one*
> 
> ...



No-one has ever turned into stone after absorbing Senjutsu. Pain turned into stone when trying to actually absorb Sage Mode _whilst_ Naruto was entering it.

It doesn't matter how fast the TBB is, the Preta Path and Shinra Tensei are both still jutsu which shut down that offensive plan. Though ST would likely be saved for when Naruto and Minato try to go in close range combat; Madara and Nagato are sensors and they'll be able to see that. That means the Preta Path, which has no cool down period can still shut down the TBB.

Naruto and Minato can keep charging TBBs, but all that will do is increase the Rinnegan users' chakra reserves whilst Obito could just get behind and warp both away.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No-one has ever turned into stone after absorbing Senjutsu. Pain turned into stone when trying to actually absorb Sage Mode _whilst_ Naruto was entering it


.

Senjutsu is what creates the mode. Pain was absorbing naruto's sage chakra which is also senjutsu chakra



> It doesn't matter how fast the TBB is, the Preta Path and Shinra Tensei are both still jutsu which shut down that offensive plan. Though ST would likely be saved for when Naruto and Minato try to go in close range combat; Madara and Nagato are sensors and they'll be able to see that. That means the Preta Path, which has no cool down period can still shut down the TBB


.

No they're not, TBB filled with senjutsu turns nagato or madara into stone. Even if ST can counter the TBB nagato either gets blitzed or destroyed from another one. Wait since when was madara a sensor? I'm sure he has sensing abilities but he has never had any good feats with it. Besides naruto and minato are too fast, nagato's reactions are not on par with madara so he won't see a blitz coming.



> Naruto and Minato can keep charging TBBs, but all that will do is increase the Rinnegan users' chakra reserves whilst Obito could just get behind and warp both away.



No it won't, it will kill nagato and madara or turn them into stone. obito is the first one killed because he is already tagged by minato, Besides if he tries to warp them minato teleports him and naruto away. How exactly is obito even going to sneak up on the best sensor in the manga anyway?


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## Octavian (Sep 8, 2013)

just stopping by to say...


*Spoiler*: __ 



 lol preta path is about as useless now as tobi's showpiece rinnegan


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 8, 2013)

I didn't notice this before, ITT Obito *is not* tagged.



Psp123789 said:


> .
> 
> Senjutsu is what creates the mode. Pain was absorbing naruto's sage chakra which is also senjutsu chakra



Why didn't Pain turn to stone all the other times he absorbed Senjutsu then?



> No they're not, TBB filled with senjutsu turns nagato or madara into stone. Even if ST can counter the TBB nagato either gets blitzed or destroyed from another one. Wait since when was madara a sensor? I'm sure he has sensing abilities but he has never had any good feats with it. Besides naruto and minato are too fast, nagato's reactions are not on par with madara so he won't see a blitz coming.



No jutsu has as much Senjutsu as an individual absorbing natural energy. So like all other jutsu before it, Ninjutsu and Senjutsu, it would get absorbed. 

Madara sensed Hashirama well before Hashirama arrived; he somehow knew that sensing wouldn't work against Shikaku's plan.

Nagato's reactions are just fine, as a cripple he was able to react to Naruto _and_ Bee. Healthy, he should do better, especially with abilities like tracking rain, sensing and shared vision. 



> How exactly is obito even going to sneak up on the best sensor in the manga anyway?



He appeared he was about to before Kakashi warned him.


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## ueharakk (Sep 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why didn't Pain turn to stone all the other times he absorbed Senjutsu then?


um maybe because he hadn't absorbed enough senjutsu to overwhelm his own chakra reserves.

When preta turned into a frog, he had absorbed 1 FRS, naruto's remaining SM, a full SM.

That's far more SM chakra than anyone has ever absorbed with preta path




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No jutsu has as much Senjutsu as an individual absorbing natural energy. So like all other jutsu before it, Ninjutsu and Senjutsu, it would get absorbed.


yes it does.  We know in the pain arc, Naruto's total senjutsu reserves is a little over 2 FRS, preta absorbed the equivalent of less than 4 FRS before it turned to stone.

And in the context of this match, are you seriously saying that a senjutsu bijuudama has less senjutsu that what preta absorbed from naruto?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara sensed Hashirama well before Hashirama arrived; he somehow knew that sensing wouldn't work against Shikaku's plan.
> 
> Nagato's reactions are just fine, as a cripple he was able to react to Naruto _and_ Bee. Healthy, he should do better, especially with abilities like tracking rain, sensing and shared vision.


nagato was barely able to put preta path up against V2 bee's speed.  He then only caught KCM Naruto while the later was in free fall.  

Those feats do not denote an ability to react and defend against a KCM let alone BM let alone BSM shunshin.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He appeared he was about to before Kakashi warned him.


while naruto's attention was spread among manipulating thousands of chakra cloaks as we've seen earlier naruto reacts just fine to obito's warping.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> um maybe because he hadn't absorbed enough senjutsu to overwhelm his own chakra reserves.
> 
> When preta turned into a frog, he had absorbed 1 FRS, naruto's remaining SM, a full SM.
> 
> That's far more SM chakra than anyone has ever absorbed with preta path



Naruto was _constantly_ taking in natural energy when Pain turned to stone. Something that doesn't occur with all other Senjutsu which got absorbed.



> yes it does.  We know in the pain arc, Naruto's total senjutsu reserves is a little over 2 FRS, preta absorbed the equivalent of less than 4 FRS before it turned to stone.
> 
> And in the context of this match, are you seriously saying that a senjutsu bijuudama has less senjutsu that what preta absorbed from naruto?



If you can show me how a Senjutsu's natural energy quantity is equivalent to someone _constantly_ taking in natural energy. Then I may just see it your way.



> nagato was barely able to put preta path up against V2 bee's speed.  He then only caught KCM Naruto while the later was in free fall.
> 
> Those feats do not denote an ability to react and defend against a KCM let alone BM let alone BSM shunshin.



Nagato didn't because Nagato chose not to at that period. For some reason, Kabuto chose to be hit prior the Preta Path. However Nagato was able to get the Preta Path in time against Naruto every single time, from KCM's Rasengan to SM's FRS. Madara did the same with fast jutsu like Jinton and FRS.

Those feats do demonstrate Nagato's crippled agility as he reacted to two very fast foes. 
The Shunshin speed has never worked on any Rikudou it has been used on, it didn't work against Nagato (Naruto got held up by a summon), it didn't work against Obito (he got hit with a fan) and it certainly didn't work against Madara (who reacted with his fan).

In fact, most of the time Naruto used this Shunshin in battle it has never worked on anyone. So why am I to think it will work now? Especially against two sensors and a guy who can phase through it, and phase whatever, or whoever, he's touching?



> while naruto's attention was spread among manipulating thousands of chakra cloaks as we've seen earlier naruto reacts just fine to obito's warping.



Naruto's attention was spread, now it is also possible that two Rinnegan users, one of whom has Mokuton and the EMS, will grab his attention. In fact the latter _did_ grab his attention in the manga when they fought. Throw a prime Nagato as Madara's back up and Naruto's attention would be on them... this gives Obito a chance to take Naruto.

Of course you can argue that Minato comes in. However my point is that BSM only gives Naruto a _chance_ against Rinnegan users. It doesn't cement his victory.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I didn't notice this before, ITT Obito *is not* tagged


.
You're taking the tag off obito?




> Why didn't Pain turn to stone all the other times he absorbed Senjutsu then


?
Idk maybe because he didn't absorb the amount of senjutsu that is required to overwhelm his chakra reserves and turn him into a frog?



> No jutsu has as much Senjutsu as an individual absorbing natural energy. So like all other jutsu before it, Ninjutsu and Senjutsu, it would get absorbed


. 
 Naruto could only use 2 rasenshurikens before returning to base which means his senjutsu reserves were about equal or a little over that. Pain absorbed 1 FRS, what was left of naruto's senjutsu reserves and an entire senjutsu reserve. Maybe about an equivalent to 3 and half rasenshurikens. Are you saying that 3 and 1/2 rasenshurikens contain more chakra than a super TBB?



> Madara sensed Hashirama well before Hashirama arrived; he somehow knew that sensing wouldn't work against Shikaku's plan


.
I know he has sensing abilities but they're never really highlighted like naruto's and he doesn't seem to really use sensing in a fight.



> Nagato's reactions are just fine, as a cripple he was able to react to Naruto _and_ Bee. Healthy, he should do better, especially with abilities like tracking rain, sensing and shared vision


. 
Killer bee's speed is below his brothers which is below km naruto which is below bm naruto which is below BSM naruto. Shared vision won't really help him as naruto and minato are attacking them head on and I doubt madara can track a BSM blitz without the sharingan active so I don't see nagato reacting fast enough.





> He appeared he was about to before Kakashi warned him.


Naruto's attention was spread, he wasn't concentrating on one thing like obito, besides BSM has chakra sensing.


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## Icegaze (Sep 8, 2013)

Madara uses meteor obito phases all his team mates. Minato and naruto die 
From meteor onslaught 
Nothing stops madara from using 10 meteors . His team mates won't b affected


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Madara uses meteor obito phases all his team mates. Minato and naruto die
> From meteor onslaught
> Nothing stops madara from using 10 meteors . His team mates won't b affected



Minato just warps them away as infinitely as Madara brings them down. He's an Edo too.


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Madara uses meteor obito phases all his team mates. Minato and naruto die
> From meteor onslaught
> Nothing stops madara from using 10 meteors . His team mates won't b affected





they can blow it up with TBB, or teleport it away via S/T barrier. 
and I even doubt if it can hurt while using Kurama's avatar!


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 8, 2013)

How does Naruto not solo?

That shitty start distance...please Narutoforums. PLEASE don't tell me you guys think either of these 3 fucks can honestly react to a BSM Naruto & BM Minato blitz.


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## Octavian (Sep 8, 2013)

Honestly, between them, this father son duo have everything covered...insane firepower in the form of BSM bijuudama/ regular bijuudama, insane defense in hiraishin, ability to clone spam, fastest shunshins, frog kata taijutsu and even genjutsu if you factor in the ni dai sennin and summons...


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 8, 2013)

Naruto & Minato can win this with Taijutsu. Haha


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Naruto & Minato can win this with Taijutsu. Haha



....... please explain what Taijutsu is doing to Madara's PS again?

Disregarding the non stop wanking, the Naruto & Minato _can_ win, it will just be ridiculously hard


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

^

Buddha's punches considered a taijutsu, right?
but Naruto, and Minato's taijutsu will do nothing to PS obviously.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 8, 2013)

As if Madara can react to a BSM blitz.
Pfft.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

Elia said:


> ^
> 
> Buddha's punches considered a taijutsu, right?
> but Naruto, and Minato's taijutsu will do nothing to PS obviously.



Because one of the Buddah's 100's if not 1000's of hands isn't capable of picking up a 100% Kurama like a tonka truck 

Please....

Stop...

The..

Wanking....

_Choujou Kebutsu_ over powered 11 PS Bijudama encased swords and PS itself through raw physical force . If your really think BSM Naruto & BM Minato can replicate that feat with chakra cloaks *alone* then we might as well agree to disagree right here and now


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Because one of the Buddah's 100's if not 1000's of hands isn't capable of picking up a 100% Kurama like a tonka truck
> 
> Please....
> 
> ...




you asked what the Taijutsu can do, and I told you Buddha's taijutsu did that to him.
How strong is it? That's irrelevant because it's still Taijutsu. 

and I did not say Naruto's or Minato's taijutsu will do anything, so I'm not even
sure what does that have to do with what I said???? 

I though I CLEARLY said


> but Naruto, and Minato's taijutsu *will do nothing* to PS obviously.



I hope that's big enough for you to see. @.@


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

Honestly the start distance is retarded....

BSM Naruto & BM Minato are Biju sized.... they literally be standing over Nagato, Madara & Obito  

This being said..... thought of a fully powered CST from 3 Rikudo's at literal point blank & BSM Naruto & BM Minato attempting seems to godly epic to picture 

Think Tendo vs. KN6 x several magnitudes of order


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

Elia said:


> you asked what the Taijutsu can do, and I told you Buddha's taijutsu did that to him.
> How strong is it? That's irrelevant because it's still Taijutsu.
> 
> and I did not say Naruto's or Minato's taijutsu will do anything, so I'm not even
> ...



It was a satirical & rhetorical question towards Jak N Blank.... should have specified what *Naruto & Minato's BSM & BM* taijutsu could do to PS, not taijutsu in general -.-

COMPLETELY took your post out of context as I thought you were responding to my post on Jak N' Blank's standpoint...








Neg me... Neg me till your hearts content


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> It was a rhetorical question Jak N Blank.... should have specified what Naruto & Minato's BSM & BM taijutsu could do to PS -.-
> 
> COMPLETELY took your post out of context...
> 
> Neg me... till your hearts content



I know, but still I was only referring that Taijutsu can work (Well Buddha's level at least)

I don't neg people. 
and I don't see a reason for that, especially for just a disagreement. 
and I don't hold a grudge against you either. @.@


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

Elia said:


> I know, but still I was only referring that Taijutsu can work (Well Buddha's level at least)
> 
> I don't neg people.
> and I don't see a reason for that, especially for just a disagreement.
> and I don't hold a grudge against you either. @.@



That was the issue I had with Jak, unless Naruto & Minato can produce Buddha taijutsu levels, they are not getting through PS

I know.... I just feel like an utter jack ass for going all Django unchained on you lol


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## raizen28 (Sep 8, 2013)

biju dama? Double CST+Preta.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

raizen28 said:


> biju dama? Double CST+Preta.



Only problem.... 

We don't know if _Fujutsu Kuyin_ would be able to save Madara & Nagato from the resulting 100+ km wide uber explosion from hell (which is where Obito comes in)

Honestly the nukage in this match is worthless.... both sides have to many counters. Naruto & Minato can tank anything team Rikudo throws at them, while Bijudama's are lol countered by _Shinra Tensei_, _Fujutsu Kuyin_ (28 users if you include Madara's clones) or at worst _Kamui_ 

Minato & Naruto's best bet is the speed game with _Shunshins_ + _Harishin_ combo's


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## Octavian (Sep 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Only problem....
> 
> We don't know if _Fujutsu Kuyin_ would be able to save Madara & Nagato from the resulting 100+ km wide uber explosion from hell (which is where Obito comes in)
> 
> ...



Senjutsu powered bijuudamas are lol countered by preta ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 8, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> .
> Idk maybe because he didn't absorb the amount of senjutsu that is required to overwhelm his chakra reserves and turn him into a frog?



Or the more likely explanation: there is a massive difference between absorbing something that constantly takes in natural energy (like the chakra of someone entering SM) to normal Senjutsu.



> Naruto could only use 2 rasenshurikens before returning to base which means his senjutsu reserves were about equal or a little over that. Pain absorbed 1 FRS, what was left of naruto's senjutsu reserves and an entire senjutsu reserve. Maybe about an equivalent to 3 and half rasenshurikens. Are you saying that 3 and 1/2 rasenshurikens contain more chakra than a super TBB?



That's fine, but I'm asking you to show me that compares to a source constantly taking in natural energy. _That_ was the only time natural energy bested the Preta Path. All other applications failed.



> I know he has sensing abilities but they're never really highlighted like naruto's and he doesn't seem to really use sensing in a fight.



Apparently he tried to, hence he knew that sensing, along with other ocular powers, wouldn't work against Shikaku's plan.



> Killer bee's speed is below his brothers which is below km naruto which is below bm naruto which is below BSM naruto. Shared vision won't really help him as naruto and minato are attacking them head on and I doubt madara can track a BSM blitz without the sharingan active so I don't see nagato reacting fast enough.



The amount of times people have said "shared vision", and the amount of times it has been consistently shown that it gets by just well. 

In this case you have two sensors, an three shinobi who have constantly reacted to Naruto's speed. If speed could get the job done, then Naruto wouldn't have had such a tough time with all these foes.

On top of that, these characters don't even need to move. They can all use Shinra Tensei to send Naruto back. Or Obito could just keep everyone intangible... that would help set up some good counter attacks.



> Naruto's attention was spread, he wasn't concentrating on one thing like obito, besides BSM has chakra sensing.



Sensing is still sensing, if he isn't focusing on someone he will be blitzed. Much like how Obito was about to blitz him.



Jak N Blak said:


> Naruto & Minato can win this with Taijutsu. Haha



Shinra Tensei.


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

^

Kurama with 6 tails was able to counter ST, why do you think Kurama himself won't do it now?


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## ueharakk (Sep 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto was _constantly_ taking in natural energy when Pain turned to stone. Something that doesn't occur with all other Senjutsu which got absorbed.


I don't think so.  Preta path only started to absorb naruto's sennin mode after naruto entered it, he wasn't absorbing while naruto was converting to it.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you can show me how a Senjutsu's natural energy quantity is equivalent to someone _constantly_ taking in natural energy. Then I may just see it your way.


I don't think i have to, in addition to that, preta path can't absorb raw natural energy, he'd have to absorb the senjutsu chakra which comes after the natural energy and chakra have been mixed.  We know that naruto still had enough chakra to enter sennin mode 2 times after that happened.  In addition to that, I would like you to show why you think a preta path users won't turn into stone after absorbing an entire sennin bijuudama.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato didn't because Nagato chose not to at that period. For some reason, Kabuto chose to be hit prior the Preta Path. However Nagato was able to get the Preta Path in time against Naruto every single time, from KCM's Rasengan to SM's FRS. Madara did the same with fast jutsu like Jinton and FRS.


I don't see how any of those other feats show that nagato chose to just take the hit and then start absorbing the jutsu.  Madara is obviously going to have faster reactions than naruto and he had time to perceive the rasenshuriken coming at him from a distance while bee's V2 lariat was closer.
Nagato most likely just activated preta path once he saw KCM Naruto start to make the rasengan as he's both a sensor and has seen rasengan before.

We've seen the same thing about preta getting hit before it can bring up the shield when jiraiya tried to attack it with SM COR, it was only able to activate its ability after the rasengan touched its arm.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Those feats do demonstrate Nagato's crippled agility as he reacted to two very fast foes.
> The Shunshin speed has never worked on any Rikudou it has been used on, it didn't work against Nagato (Naruto got held up by a summon), it didn't work against Obito (he got hit with a fan) and it certainly didn't work against Madara (who reacted with his fan).


Er, naruto never used shunshin to directly attack any of those guys.

Nagato: naruto was in freefall, so it's not that shunshin didn't work, he just didn't use it.
Obito: he didn't use shunshin, he used his normal super speed like he did against Ei.
Madara: if naruto did use shunshin, he used it to only get above madara he didn't use it to attack as we see in the time it takes naruto to fall a couple of meters, he's able to spout a few sentences and make a mini bijuudama while madara is able to lift his fan.

In all the instances where we KNOW Naruto did use shunshin he moves from point A to point B in an instant with no panels in between like he did against the bijuudamas and against mokuryu.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In fact, most of the time Naruto used this Shunshin in battle it has never worked on anyone. So why am I to think it will work now? Especially against two sensors and a guy who can phase through it, and phase whatever, or whoever, he's touching?


show me one time naruto using shunshin to attack someone.  




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto's attention was spread, now it is also possible that two Rinnegan users, one of whom has Mokuton and the EMS, will grab his attention. In fact the latter _did_ grab his attention in the manga when they fought. Throw a prime Nagato as Madara's back up and Naruto's attention would be on them... this gives Obito a chance to take Naruto.


well with minato on his side I don't see how either one of them won't notice obito considering they are the best sensors in the manga and those three fighters are now spread out across 2 people instead of one.  In addition to that, BSM Naruto most likely has sensing abilities far beyond BM Naruto as he has SM sensing stacked on his own.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Of course you can argue that Minato comes in. However my point is that BSM only gives Naruto a _chance_ against Rinnegan users. It doesn't cement his victory.


Wait hold on, aren't you the guy who said that because preta path can absorb any ninjutsu, BM Naruto can't beat Nagato?



raizen28 said:


> biju dama? Double CST+Preta.


CST isn't on the same level as the bijuudamas naruto and minato can push, and guess what?  Lets say double CST does stop it.  They just make another bijuudama now that nagato and madara are in cooldown.  Preta path turns whoever's foolish enough to try and absorb a senjutsu bijuudama to stone.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

Octavian said:


> Senjutsu powered bijuudamas are lol countered by preta ?



You do realize the reason it failed is because Nagato couldn't balance the raw raw natural chakra not because of some inherent weakness of the tech.

If the technique is pre balanced with nature chakra (FRS or Bijudama) then there is no need for user (Nagato or Madara) balance nature chakra and risk turning to stone as Naruto already balanced it in forming said ninjutsu 

A large ST or Kamui would suffice if you want to get into the what counters what


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Naruto cuts through Perfect Susano'o with handheld Rasenshuriken just as he cut through the Juubi's Tails.

Come at me Joakim.


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## ueharakk (Sep 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> You do realize the reason it failed is because Nagato couldn't balance the raw raw natural chakra not because of some inherent weakness of the tech.
> 
> If the technique is pre balanced with nature chakra (FRS or Bijudama) then there is no need for user (Nagato or Madara) balance nature chakra and risk turning to stone as Naruto already balanced it in forming said ninjutsu
> 
> A large ST or Kamui would suffice if you want to get into the what counters what



that's not true, if the senjutsu was imbalanced, then naruto would be sprouting frog warts and stuff on his body, but as we see he did a perfect sennin transformation just like he did any other time thus whatever natural energy he was taking in had to have been balanced.

Finally, pa stated he absorbed too much sennin chakra or senjutsu not natural energy.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto cuts through Perfect Susano'o with handheld Rasenshuriken just as he cut through the Juubi's Tails.
> 
> Come at me Joakim.



..... It's confirmed Raikagenaut is more durable than Juubi and can casually tank 300km multi teraton Juubidama's. 


Canon  




*Spoiler*: __ 



Seriously though Team Rikudo last as long as Obtio's _Kamui_ last, after that they and whatever megazords they try to produce are erased from the planet


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## Octavian (Sep 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> You do realize the reason it failed is because Nagato couldn't balance the raw raw natural chakra not because of some inherent weakness of the tech.
> 
> If the technique is pre balanced with nature chakra (FRS or Bijudama) then there is no need for user (Nagato or Madara) balance nature chakra and risk turning to stone as Naruto already balanced it in forming said ninjutsu
> 
> A large ST or Kamui would suffice if you want to get into the what counters what



even if that is how it functions, what is preventing naruto from exploiting this "imbalance" of senjutsu chakra by incorporating this principle into his bijuudamas. after all, he has fought nagato twice before and he's proven himself rather competent with strategies in recent chapters.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> ..... It's confirmed Raikagenaut is more durable than Juubi and can casually tank 300km multi teraton Juubidama's.



Nukite > Juubi Bomb.

Nah but really, the Bijuu Mode enhancement to Naruto's Ninjutsu, plus the fact that he can wield two of them, probably allows him to cut almost anything in the Manga.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Nukite > Juubi Bomb.
> 
> Nah but really, the Bijuu Mode enhancement to Naruto's Ninjutsu, plus the fact that he can wield two of them, probably allows him to cut almost anything in the Manga.



damn straight 

Yeah I'm totally on your side lol. BSM Naruto is utterly ridiculous right now lol, but hey ever since we saw the preview when Nagato was soloed by a book, I knew it was going to be something of truly ungodly in terms of hax input


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> ..... It's confirmed Raikagenaut is more durable than Juubi and can casually tank 300km multi *petaton* Juubidama's.



Fixed. 

Ten-Tails is now continent level.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's not true, if the senjutsu was imbalanced, then naruto would be sprouting frog warts and stuff on his body, but as we see he did a perfect sennin transformation just like he did any other time thus whatever natural energy he was taking in had to have been balanced.
> 
> Finally, pa stated he absorbed too much sennin chakra or senjutsu not natural energy.



You know I never thought about it like this.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or the more likely explanation: there is a massive difference between absorbing something that constantly takes in natural energy (like the chakra of someone entering SM) to normal Senjutsu


.
What you're saying doesn't make any sense at all. Senjutsu is senjutsu, Preta already absorbed raw senjutsu like you said and DIDN"T TURN INTO STONE. So that right there proves your entire argument wrong. Preta didn't absorb enough senjutsu chakra in order to turn himself into a frog. That's how it is.





> That's fine, but I'm asking you to show me that compares to a source constantly taking in natural energy. _That_ was the only time natural energy bested the Preta Path. All other applications failed


.
I don't have to because you're not really making any sense. Senjutsu is senjutsu, what preta absorbed was senjutsu, what turned him into stone was senjutsu, if he absorbs too much he turns into stone. I already proved this.





> Apparently he tried to, hence he knew that sensing, along with other ocular powers, wouldn't work against Shikaku's plan


.
Still he doesn't really utilize his sensing abilities that much in a fight and it doesn't really matter as minato and naruto won't be hiding or trying to sneak up on him.





> The amount of times people have said "shared vision", and the amount of times it has been consistently shown that it gets by just well


. Again shared vision won't protect nagato from a TBB or a blitz. He can't react neither can madara without the sharingan so nagato is getting killed no matter what.



> In this case you have two sensors, an three shinobi who have constantly reacted to Naruto's speed. If speed could get the job done, then Naruto wouldn't have had such a tough time with all these foes


.
Wait a minute since when have madara, nagato, and obito been able to constantly react to naruto's speed? Naruto also has BSM now which improves his speed. I don't remember nagato reacting to anything near naruto's top speed and naruto hasn't really even been utilizing his speed against madara and tobi and besides they both have sharingan.



> On top of that, these characters don't even need to move. They can all use Shinra Tensei to send Naruto back. Or Obito could just keep everyone intangible... that would help set up some good counter attacks


.
Madara and obito haven't ever used ST and even if they can(which I doubt a lot)chakra arms and tails keep minato and naruto on the ground, and minato can warp naruto and himself out of danger as naruto has malice sensing. Chakra arms can also be used to rip nagato or madara apart.





> Sensing is still sensing, if he isn't focusing on someone he will be blitzed. Much like how Obito was about to blitz him


.
He only has to focus on 3 people in this fight which is much easier than focusing on thousands. Also BSM gives naruto chakra sensing. You're also forgetting about kyuubi enhanced frog song which is also a finisher.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 9, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> .
> What you're saying doesn't make any sense at all. Senjutsu is senjutsu, Preta already absorbed raw senjutsu like you said and DIDN"T TURN INTO STONE. So that right there proves your entire argument wrong. Preta didn't absorb enough senjutsu chakra in order to turn himself into a frog. That's how it is.



You had no real answer to why no-one got turned to stone when they absorbed Senjutsu. _That_ shatters your argument. What's more, Senjutsu chakra is no threat, natural energy is.

Preta Path reversed chakra flow, so the absorbed chakra becomes physical and spiritual energy when it is absorbed; added to the mix is natural energy when Senjutsu is absorbed.

However the _only_ time he got turned to stone was when Naruto gathered _lots_ of natural energy. Something that can only be done while the user is entering Sage Mode. That's why nothing happened when Pain absorbed Sage Mode itself.

We've consistently seen the sort of Senjutsu you described fail against the Preta Path.



> .
> Still he doesn't really utilize his sensing abilities that much in a fight and it doesn't really matter as minato and naruto won't be hiding or trying to sneak up on him.



When he found out Shikaku's plan disabled sensing... the only way he could've done that is by trying to sense chakra. So yes he did it in a fight, he also sensed Hashirama during a fight too. 



> . Again shared vision won't protect nagato from a TBB or a blitz. He can't react neither can madara without the sharingan so nagato is getting killed no matter what.



A blitz it'd protect him from, considering fast characters (sages and Jinchuriki alike... even fast guys like Kakashi) were dealt with with that ability. 
It doesn't need to protect him for TBB, when he has the Preta Path for that; same with his comrades. 

You're assuming they can't react, yet when Nagato/Madara/Obito fought Naruto with this speed, they have consistently done well against him. Usually they put him in a bind where he requires help. In fact the only time Naruto has ever tried to use speed is when the foes were not focusing on him; when he tried to target something with his speed... the slower Obito was able to intercept him easily. Madara was even able to do the same; Nagato was even able to react to Naruto's fast attacks.

Speed blitz is a poor argument here. 



> Naruto also has BSM now which improves his speed. I don't remember nagato reacting to anything near naruto's top speed and naruto hasn't really even been utilizing his speed against madara and tobi and besides they both have sharingan.



Again if speed could get the job done like you think it can, Minato and Tobirama wouldn't be around backing Naruto up. 

Naruto moves faster than V2 Ei, who moves faster than the Sharingan can perceive. Yet with that above Ei speed, he wasn't able to blitz the likes of Nagato (who was crippled)/Madara/Obito.



> Madara and obito haven't ever used ST and even if they can(which I doubt a lot)chakra arms and tails keep minato and naruto on the ground, and minato can warp naruto and himself out of danger as naruto has malice sensing. Chakra arms can also be used to rip nagato or madara apart.



Read the OP. Furthermore Madara _taught_ Obito the Rinnegan jutsu, that automatically says they both have said jutsu. 

Chakra arms and and tails could possibly work... however that was with a weaker application of Shinra Tensei as it was through Pain. A full powered Shinra Tensei (from real Rinnegan users) could possibly be hitting the Kyuubi Jinchuriki with triple the power.

Warping is a good idea, however with two sensors on team Rinnegan, it won't be much help. 

Chakra arms would be absorbed like the last time Naruto tried to hit Nagato with Rasengan.



> He only has to focus on 3 people in this fight which is much easier than focusing on thousands. Also BSM gives naruto chakra sensing. You're also forgetting about kyuubi enhanced frog song which is also a finisher.



He has to focus on 3 people who gave him a very hard time when he fought them alone. _That_ isn't as easy as you think. Naruto had chakra sensing without SM before.

You're forgetting about many things in this battle. Nagato knows about the song, and the song gives away Naruto's location. Obito could warp to that location and either pin Naruto down, or have Madara subjugate the Kyuubi chakra with Mokuton. Of course absorption is a good idea too; a Shinra Tensei could disrupt the frog song as well.

On top of that, there are many key combos from the other team you overlooked. For example, the Gedo Mazo could be summoned and could be coated in Perfect Susanoo. In fact Gedo Mazo _and_ a lot of Rinnegan summons could be coated in Perfect Susanoo if Madara uses Moku Bunshins. 

Obito and Nagato could be perfect supports for Madara seeing as it means there'd be Kamui and extra Rinnegan jutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> ^
> 
> Kurama with 6 tails was able to counter ST, why do you think Kurama himself won't do it now?



That was God Realm Pain using Shinra Tensei. Naruto said Rinnegan jutsu weren't that strong when Nagato used them through Pain.



ueharakk said:


> that's not true, if the senjutsu was imbalanced, then naruto would be sprouting frog warts and stuff on his body, but as we see he did a perfect sennin transformation just like he did any other time thus whatever natural energy he was taking in had to have been balanced.
> 
> Finally, pa stated he absorbed too much sennin chakra or senjutsu not natural energy.



Which is why Naruto said _natural energy_ isn't easy to control? 
Characters turn into stone if they can't control natural energy. That doesn't apply to Sage chakra, seeing as all sorts of jutsu using Sage chakra have been absorbed.




> I don't see how any of those other feats show that nagato chose to just take the hit and then start absorbing the jutsu.  Madara is obviously going to have faster reactions than naruto and he had time to perceive the rasenshuriken coming at him from a distance while bee's V2 lariat was closer.
> Nagato most likely just activated preta path once he saw KCM Naruto start to make the rasengan as he's both a sensor and has seen rasengan before.



The feat you cite shows Kabuto choosing to take the hit. We've seen Nagato doing what he could to avoid getting hit when he used to fight.

Rasenshuriken is an extremely fast jutsu considering how much distance it covered in a small amount of seconds (refer to God Realm vs Naruto). Yet Nagato, via God Realm, and Madara have shown that while they're in a bind... they can react to it.

It is hard to believe the guy who reacted to FRS wouldn't be able to react to Bee. More ITT when he's in his prime body. 

If Naruto was _that_ fast, then he should've been able to do it faster than Nagato could do anything. That, however, didn't happen.



> We've seen the same thing about preta getting hit before it can bring up the shield when jiraiya tried to attack it with SM COR, it was only able to activate its ability after the rasengan touched its arm.



That is if he chooses to activate the barrier at that time. If you refer to the times Preta Path was used after that, you'll see that the barrier was up without Nagato-Pain being touched. Examples include the Konoha invasion, when he fought SM Naruto and when Nagato absorbed Naruto's Rasengan and chakra arm.
In fact it was the same case with Madara when he attempted to absorb Ranton Ninjutsu.



> Er, naruto never used shunshin to directly attack any of those guys.



Now, if Naruto thought it would work... don't you think he would've? 



> Nagato: naruto was in freefall, so it's not that shunshin didn't work, he just didn't use it.
> Obito: he didn't use shunshin, he used his normal super speed like he did against Ei.
> Madara: if naruto did use shunshin, he used it to only get above madara he didn't use it to attack as we see in the time it takes naruto to fall a couple of meters, he's able to spout a few sentences and make a mini bijuudama while madara is able to lift his fan.



What about when Naruto got stuck fighting Nagato's summon?

What about when Naruto tried to attack the Gedo Mazo?

If Naruto was that fast he would have hit Madara before he had time to react... Naruto made sure to try when he distracted Madara with the Outer Path stakes.

These three opponents have shown that Naruto's speed will not work directly on them. Against Obito, the only time he used this speed was when he saved Kakashi and Gai from the Bijuu Dama... when Obito wasn't concentrating on him. When Obito concentrated on him, there was no speed blitzing.

With Madara, the only time it worked was when Madara stopped concentrating on him... however this was to save Bee, Gai and Kakashi. Again Naruto's speed didn't save him when those shinobi were going to direct their attacks at him.



> In all the instances where we KNOW Naruto did use shunshin he moves from point A to point B in an instant with no panels in between like he did against the bijuudamas and against mokuryu.
> 
> show me one time naruto using shunshin to attack someone.



You're the one claiming that it is going to be such a huge difference in the fight. So if you're essentially admitting Naruto doesn't use Shunshin, in the manner we're debating, in a fight... . Doesn't that render your argument null and void?

As for when he used Shunshin, all the bursts of speed (particularly in the parts we talked about in this post) are self explanatory.



> well with minato on his side I don't see how either one of them won't notice obito considering they are the best sensors in the manga and those three fighters are now spread out across 2 people instead of one.  In addition to that, BSM Naruto most likely has sensing abilities far beyond BM Naruto as he has SM sensing stacked on his own.



Sensing is still sensing. If Naruto has to focus on two people, he's going to have a hard time against a tricky third one like Obito.

Minato is a good argument. Though that presents its own problems, Obito now knows he shouldn't be tagged; Shinra Tensei and Demon Realm powers can help with that. On top of that he could attempt to absorb Minato's chakra shroud if need be.



> Wait hold on, aren't you the guy who said that because preta path can absorb any ninjutsu, BM Naruto can't beat Nagato?



I'm sure anybody can put two and two together and realise Naruto has never beaten the Preta Path with Ninjutsu. Naruto vs the Rinnegan (with SM and KM) speak for themselves.



> CST isn't on the same level as the bijuudamas naruto and minato can push, and guess what?  Lets say double CST does stop it.  They just make another bijuudama now that nagato and madara are in cooldown.  Preta path turns whoever's foolish enough to try and absorb a senjutsu bijuudama to stone.



You don't know that. CST is a jutsu which is an enhanced version of a jutsu that generally repels jutsu. One could be enough, more so when the CST you cite came from Pain. Canonically any Rinnegan jutsu used through Pain, and not a real Rinnegan user, is weaker than it can be; ask Naruto.

You're relying on the stone thing, but you're also forgetting how the Preta Path actually works and how absorbing natural energy within Senjutsu is very different to absorbing constant natural energy from someone entering SM. 

On top of that you ignore key counters from the other side. For instance with this rapid Bijuu Dama argument you completely ignored Obito using Kamui on his comrades.
Furthermore you have also forgotten about how Rinnegan summons can play a role in this match. In addition to that you have didn't address how Madara's Mokuton is going to be countered, seeing as that Mokuton can suppress Bijuu and Madara has a particular jutsu which can suppress Kurama. 

Naruto and Minato may very well win this. However that will not happen by assuming the Preta Path is useless, neglecting Kamui and Mokuton presence. Along with some of the Rinnegan's other powers, like its Bijuu suppressing stakes.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Which is why Naruto said _natural energy_ isn't easy to control?
> Characters turn into stone if they can't control natural energy. That doesn't apply to Sage chakra, seeing as all sorts of jutsu using Sage chakra have been absorbed.


Yeah natural energy which is a component of sage chakra isn't easy to control.  And I've already explained that the one guy who did turn into stone absorbed tons of more sage chakra than the guys who absorbed sage chakra via techniques.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The feat you cite shows Kabuto choosing to take the hit. We've seen Nagato doing what he could to avoid getting hit when he used to fight.


But there's zero reason to do so.  If you want to say people choose to wait till the last minute to physically react to attacks then that pretty much throws all the reaction feats in the manga out the window.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Rasenshuriken is an extremely fast jutsu considering how much distance it covered in a small amount of seconds (refer to God Realm vs Naruto). Yet Nagato, via God Realm, and Madara have shown that while they're in a bind... they can react to it.
> 
> It is hard to believe the guy who reacted to FRS wouldn't be able to react to Bee. More ITT when he's in his prime body.


And?  I've never said that nagato is incapable of reacting to V2 lariat, I said he could barely put preta path up in time.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Naruto was _that_ fast, then he should've been able to do it faster than Nagato could do anything. That, however, didn't happen.


naruto's shunshin and movement speed are extremely fast, him making a rasengan right in front of a sensor's face and announcing his attack would not apply to his super movement speed.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That is if he chooses to activate the barrier at that time. If you refer to the times Preta Path was used after that, you'll see that the barrier was up without Nagato-Pain being touched. Examples include the Konoha invasion, when he fought SM Naruto and when Nagato absorbed Naruto's Rasengan and chakra arm.
> In fact it was the same case with Madara when he attempted to absorb Ranton Ninjutsu.


Yeah and all of those examples you've given have preta path given warning about the attack coming beforehand or being able to see it offpanel and prepare to use that jutsu.

Ranton had to travel more than a kilometer to reach madara, so madara absorbing it means nothing.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Now, if Naruto thought it would work... don't you think he would've?


really?  
So if nagato could activate preta path before getting hit, don't you think he would've?
If Bee could have nuked gedo mazou in chapter 594, don't you think he would have?
If Naruto could have nuked gedo mazou with a bijuudama/FRS in chapter 594 don't you think he would have?
If Naruto could have fodderized mokuryu with a bijuudama, rapidfire bijuudama, bijuurasengan etc don't yo think he would have?
If Madara could have solod the alliance in chapter 611 don't you think he would have?
If the juubi could have solod the alliance with one laser sweep, don't you think he would have?




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What about when Naruto got stuck fighting Nagato's summon?


show me him even using super speed let alone flash shunshin else he doesn't use it.  Kishi limits naruto's use of his WTF speed on panel, why would he allow naruto to use it offpanel?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What about when Naruto tried to attack the Gedo Mazo?


super speed not flash shunshin as naruto moves from point A to point B in an instant when he shunshins, yet he had time to generate a chakra arm and a rasengan when he was only halfway there, and that would also mean that Tobi can throw his gunbai at a speed 10 times faster than KCM Naruto can shunshin.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Naruto was that fast he would have hit Madara before he had time to react... Naruto made sure to try when he distracted Madara with the Outer Path stakes.


Nope, what you've just said has fully been answered by the post you've quoted.  Do NOT ignore my argument an ignored argument is a conceded one.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> These three opponents have shown that Naruto's speed will not work directly on them. Against Obito, the only time he used this speed was when he saved Kakashi and Gai from the Bijuu Dama... when Obito wasn't concentrating on him. When Obito concentrated on him, there was no speed blitzing.


That's because naruto didn't use his speed directly on Obito.  Obito concentrating on naruto has nothing to do with naruto's speed it would only mean that obito's reactions in regards to naruto's speed wouldn't be genuine.  Obito has shown that his reactions are below kakashi's, and people like MS Sasuke can't even keep track of the far slower V2 Ei.  No one has ever been able to track naruto while he's using shunshin.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> With Madara, the only time it worked was when Madara stopped concentrating on him... however this was to save Bee, Gai and Kakashi. Again Naruto's speed didn't save him when those shinobi were going to direct their attacks at him.


That's the only time Naruto USED shunshin.  Show me naruto using shunshin when madara or obito were directly attacking him.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're the one claiming that it is going to be such a huge difference in the fight. So if you're essentially admitting Naruto doesn't use Shunshin, in the manner we're debating, in a fight... . Doesn't that render your argument null and void?


Nope because in this thread, naruto isn't being held back by plot which demands that madara and obito survive long enough for them to reach x powerup.  Unless you want to state that madara letting lee bisect him is part of madara's fighting style, then nope.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sensing is still sensing. If Naruto has to focus on two people, he's going to have a hard time against a tricky third one like Obito.


er no it's not sensing the level or abilities of your sensing OBVIOUSLY allows you to detect opponents and attacks better.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato is a good argument. Though that presents its own problems, Obito now knows he shouldn't be tagged; Shinra Tensei and Demon Realm powers can help with that. On top of that he could attempt to absorb Minato's chakra shroud if need be.


All of that is irrelevant since if obito's attention has to be on absorbing minato's shroud, not getting tagged, and nagato's attention has to be on shinra tenseing minato in addition to not getting beat by him (same for madara) then that takes away their focus from naruto and thus naruto has the warryness to sense obito and not get warped.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm sure anybody can put two and two together and realise Naruto has never beaten the Preta Path with Ninjutsu. Naruto vs the Rinnegan (with SM and KM) speak for themselves.


i'm sure anybody can put two and two together that Naruto has beaten preta path with pure senjutsu volume, thus naruto with nigh infinite BSM chakra vs the rinnegan speaks for itself.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You don't know that. CST is a jutsu which is an enhanced version of a jutsu that generally repels jutsu. One could be enough, more so when the CST you cite came from Pain. Canonically any Rinnegan jutsu used through Pain, and not a real Rinnegan user, is weaker than it can be; ask Naruto.


I took into account the scaling when I made that statement as standard bijuudamas produce far more power than the chou shinra tensei that pain used on konohoa (OBD calcs) and naruto can make bijuudamas that are hundreds of times larger than normal ones in just BM.  
And shinra tensei can't just dispel bijuudamas that 's why pein opted to banshou tennin a cliff into KN6 and take part of the explosion instead of just repelling the dama.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're relying on the stone thing, but you're also forgetting how the Preta Path actually works and how absorbing natural energy within Senjutsu is very different to absorbing constant natural energy from someone entering SM.


Preta path can't absorb natural energy if it did it would naturally turn into a frog anytime it used its powers as natural energy is everywhere.  Preta path only absorbed naruto's chakra after he entered Sennin mode and pa stated that he absorbed too much senjutsu.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> On top of that you ignore key counters from the other side. For instance with this rapid Bijuu Dama argument you completely ignored Obito using Kamui on his comrades.
> Furthermore you have also forgotten about how Rinnegan summons can play a role in this match. In addition to that you have didn't address how Madara's Mokuton is going to be countered, seeing as that Mokuton can suppress Bijuu and Madara has a particular jutsu which can suppress Kurama.


rinnegan summons and madara's mokuton are complete fodders against people who can fire a bijuudama as hashirama's mokuryu mokujin and far bigger flower tree world were all wiped out by just a single normal bijuudama.

Sure Obito can use kamui on his comrades, but he's going to have to fight right next to both if he wants to save both of them when they are in cooldown.  And if you actually read my posts I never took a formal stance on who actually wins this, I just had qualms about your reasoning.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto and Minato may very well win this. However that will not happen by assuming the Preta Path is useless, neglecting Kamui and Mokuton presence. Along with some of the Rinnegan's other powers, like its Bijuu suppressing stakes.


I'm not assuming any of those things, I'm not even saying Naruto and Minato win this.


----------



## Psp123789 (Sep 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You had no real answer to why no-one got turned to stone when they absorbed Senjutsu. _That_ shatters your argument. What's more, Senjutsu chakra is no threat, natural energy is


.
Now you're just making up excuses. Here Preta is absorbing senjutsu right here
*tossing them into the clouds.*
Preta is stated to have absorbed too much of naruto's sage mode chakra or senjutsu which turned him into stone.
*tossing them into the clouds.*
In both panels he is stated to be absorbing the same thing, I don't even know what you're trying say he absorbed but it is completely wrong. Nowhere does it say he absorbed natural energy so you are wrong.


> Preta Path reversed chakra flow, so the absorbed chakra becomes physical and spiritual energy when it is absorbed; added to the mix is natural energy when Senjutsu is absorbed. However the _only_ time he got turned to stone was when Naruto gathered _lots_ of natural energy. Something that can only be done while the user is entering Sage Mode. That's why nothing happened when Pain absorbed Sage Mode itself. We've consistently seen the sort of Senjutsu you described fail against the Preta Path


.
It was stated he absorbed TOO MUCH senjutsu. That's why it failed, he only turns to stone when he absorbs TOO MUCH senjutsu and since he can't control it he turns into stone I already proved this.





> When he found out Shikaku's plan disabled sensing... the only way he could've done that is by trying to sense chakra. So yes he did it in a fight, he also sensed Hashirama during a fight too


.
I told you I already know he has sensing abilities a lot of ninjas do but it won't help him that much in this fight. 





> A blitz it'd protect him from, considering fast characters (sages and Jinchuriki alike... even fast guys like Kakashi) were dealt with with that ability.
> It doesn't need to protect him for TBB, when he has the Preta Path for that; same with his comrades


. 
Nope Nagato can't react to anything near naruto's full speed. Nobody in naruto has. Preta path fails, I already proved this.



> You're assuming they can't react, yet when Nagato/Madara/Obito fought Naruto with this speed, they have consistently done well against him. Usually they put him in a bind where he requires help. In fact the only time Naruto has ever tried to use speed is when the foes were not focusing on him; when he tried to target something with his speed... the slower Obito was able to intercept him easily. Madara was even able to do the same; Nagato was even able to react to Naruto's fast attacks


.
Nagato hasn't reacted to naruto's full speed ever. Again Obito and madara have the sharingan which improves their reaction by a lot and naruto hasn't been using his shunsin against them, he hardly ever uses it. Nagato hasn't reacted to naruto and he doesn't have the sharingan so he gets blitzed. 






> Again if speed could get the job done like you think it can, Minato and Tobirama wouldn't be around backing Naruto up


.
Why are you trying to compare the juubi(who already blitzed naruto) to nagato?



> Naruto moves faster than V2 Ei, who moves faster than the Sharingan can perceive. Yet with that above Ei speed, he wasn't able to blitz the likes of Nagato (who was crippled)/Madara/Obito


.
Naruto never tried to blitz nagato and his brain was turned off in that fight. Naruto is not even using his speed against them and they also have the sharingan.





> Read the OP. Furthermore Madara _taught_ Obito the Rinnegan jutsu, that automatically says they both have said jutsu


. 
When did madara teach obito shinra tensei?? I also told you how naruto counters it if they have it.



> Chakra arms and and tails could possibly work... however that was with a weaker application of Shinra Tensei as it was through Pain. A full powered Shinra Tensei (from real Rinnegan users) could possibly be hitting the Kyuubi Jinchuriki with triple the power


.
I don't see why it still wouldn't work, at best naruto might be pushed back a bit



> Warping is a good idea, however with two sensors on team Rinnegan, it won't be much help.
> Chakra arms would be absorbed like the last time Naruto tried to hit Nagato with Rasengan


.
All he needs to do is warp out of obito kamui before he sucks them up. It's not that hard. whoever absorbs the arms turn to stone.





> He has to focus on 3 people who gave him a very hard time when he fought them alone. _That_ isn't as easy as you think. Naruto had chakra sensing without SM before.
> You're forgetting about many things in this battle. Nagato knows about the song, and the song gives away Naruto's location. Obito could warp to that location and either pin Naruto down, or have Madara subjugate the Kyuubi chakra with Mokuton. Of course absorption is a good idea too; a Shinra Tensei could disrupt the frog song as well.
> On top of that, there are many key combos from the other team you overlooked. For example, the Gedo Mazo could be summoned and could be coated in Perfect Susanoo. In fact Gedo Mazo _and_ a lot of Rinnegan summons could be coated in Perfect Susanoo if Madara uses Moku Bunshins.Obito and Nagato could be perfect supports for Madara seeing as it means there'd be Kamui and extra Rinnegan jutsu.


It's naruto AND minato not naruto by himself, he has his father who also has BM. No naruto had malice sensing not sage mode sensing which increases his sensing abilities by a lot which is why he sensed the entire war. Why would naruto and minato be hiding and why would they use it on nagato? They can easily use it on madara or obito and distract them long enough to kill them. PS gets destroyed by a super sage enhanced TBB or a sage enhanced ultimate TBB with minato. You're forgetting naruto and minato can make BM clones which can also use TBB's. I also think minato's clones can use FTG kunai so they have to worry about that as well. Minato or his clones can put tags on naruto's clones and him. They have to worry about redirected TBB's and Rasenshurikens warping right into them. Super TBB takes out nagato and either kills or breaks madara's PS. Then after they take out madara they team up on obito.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Yeah natural energy which is a component of sage chakra isn't easy to control.  And I've already explained that the one guy who did turn into stone absorbed tons of more sage chakra than the guys who absorbed sage chakra via techniques.



Natural energy was said to be hard to control; you're trying to generalise it to the byproduct of said control - Sage chakra.

I've seen your explanation, but you ignored Naruto's own input that it was the natural energy from the SM entering process that turned Pain into stone. Supported by the fact the databook explicitly says SM takes in lots of natural energy _and_ the fact Senjutsu which contained a lot of natural energy was absorbed a lot of times in the manga.



> But there's zero reason to do so.  If you want to say people choose to wait till the last minute to physically react to attacks then that pretty much throws all the reaction feats in the manga out the window.



Not necessarily. It just means we wouldn't readily use someone's performance as an accurate reflection of their ability if they weren't in control of their actions. For instance, when Kabuto controlled the Raikage he completely neglected the Raikage's black lightning, much like he neglected Nagato's sensory abilities and Preta Path set up. Though for the Preta Path, you can argue that he knew Nagato could tank the hit (there was no dust flying around when he got hit).



> And?  I've never said that nagato is incapable of reacting to V2 lariat, I said he could barely put preta path up in time.



That makes you wrong. Seeing as we saw Kabuto chose to use the Preta Path after he was hit. Preta Path was able to react to Ninjutsu at the last minute e.g. when the super fast FRS almost hit God Realm. To add perspective, Naruto said Nagato's jutsu are not only stronger than Pain's, but also _faster_.



> naruto's shunshin and movement speed are extremely fast, him making a rasengan right in front of a sensor's face and announcing his attack would not apply to his super movement speed.



That logic makes no sense. If Naruto could use his speed to make a tremendous difference against foes like Nagato, Madara and Obito, then like I said they wouldn't always put him in a bind. 

Though the sensor thing applies to Madara and Nagato more, but it does say a lot if a non-sensor like Obito could still intercept said speed.


> Yeah and all of those examples you've given have preta path given warning about the attack coming beforehand or being able to see it offpanel and prepare to use that jutsu.
> 
> Ranton had to travel more than a kilometer to reach madara, so madara absorbing it means nothing.



You have no real indication that the Preta Path power had a warning sign. You can argue that Naruto with his reflexes could form a Rasengan quick... but to deny that implies SM Jiraiya can attack faster than KCM Naruto.
Of course we can take the obvious picture: the Preta Path barrier can be set up as the user wishes, making the most sense with Naruto seeing as Nagato's execution speed is faster than Psn's. 

Ranton traveled while Madara was blinded with light. 



> really?
> So if nagato could activate preta path before getting hit, don't you think he would've?
> If Bee could have nuked gedo mazou in chapter 594, don't you think he would have?
> If Naruto could have nuked gedo mazou with a bijuudama/FRS in chapter 594 don't you think he would have?
> ...



Nagato has several times; with Killer B, that was Kabuto in control.

Hard to do when he's injured and when Obito is there defending the statue while having the capacity to summon Bijuu suppressing stakes.

Naruto couldn't fodderise the Mokuryu; Mokuryu fodderised him. Also Mokuryu could be faster than you're giving it credit for.

Except Madara explicitly told us he just wanted to test his powers.

The Juubi could, but it seems its controllers didn't seem to do it fast enough.

Each of those examples you gave had a logical reason behind it. Just like with Naruto not using his insane speed; it wouldn't work on certain opponents.



> show me him even using super speed let alone flash shunshin else he doesn't use it.  Kishi limits naruto's use of his WTF speed on panel, why would he allow naruto to use it offpanel?



You don't quite understand what you're implying here. The sole fact that there is no panel of Naruto using his super speed against Nagato automatically tells us that Naruto believed it wouldn't work. 
People could believe you if you said Naruto was holding back on Itachi... but now if you're going to claim he was holding back on Nagato, eyebrows will raise.



> super speed not flash shunshin as naruto moves from point A to point B in an instant when he shunshins, yet he had time to generate a chakra arm and a rasengan when he was only halfway there, and that would also mean that Tobi can throw his gunbai at a speed 10 times faster than KCM Naruto can shunshin.



Naruto doesn't move in an instant; Hiraishin is moving in an instant. Naruto just has super speed, which is what Shunshin is.
As foes like Madara, Nagato and Obito have shown, reacting to Naruto's attacks isn't hard for opponents of a certain tier with particular abilities. More so with abilities which do not require movement like Shinra Tensei.



> Nope, what you've just said has fully been answered by the post you've quoted.  Do NOT ignore my argument an ignored argument is a conceded one.



You have no real argument though. Your claim is Naruto would use super speed. You then inadvertently acknowledge that Naruto has never used his super speed on Rikudou opponents. However rather than taking it as Naruto believing that wouldn't work, you take it as it was held back. Despite the fact that these Rikudou foes have still been able to counter Naruto's attacks despite his increase speed. 

You didn't answer anything. The fact that a distracted opponent from a certain tier could still react to Naruto's attack automatically discredits your speed play argument.



> That's because naruto didn't use his speed directly on Obito.  Obito concentrating on naruto has nothing to do with naruto's speed it would only mean that obito's reactions in regards to naruto's speed wouldn't be genuine.  Obito has shown that his reactions are below kakashi's, and people like MS Sasuke can't even keep track of the far slower V2 Ei.  No one has ever been able to track naruto while he's using shunshin.



Are you not getting it? The very fact Naruto chose _not_ to use his speed directly on Obito should tell you that he didn't think it would work. Hence the need to not use it directly on Obito.

Now if Naruto's super speed stops becoming a huge factor when Obito concentrates on him... that says a lot. 



> That's the only time Naruto USED shunshin.  Show me naruto using shunshin when madara or obito were directly attacking him.



Again you do realise that you're suggesting Naruto himself is thinks that his Shunshin wouldn't be a huge difference maker against these guys right?



> Nope because in this thread, naruto isn't being held back by plot which demands that madara and obito survive long enough for them to reach x powerup.  Unless you want to state that madara letting lee bisect him is part of madara's fighting style, then nope.



"Held back by plot" is only valid when there is an actual plot factor holding the character back. In Obito's case, choosing to use Pain rather than utilising the Rinnegan and MS concurrently; Madara's case, choosing to test his powers; Nagato's case, being controlled by someone who doesn't know his full abilities. 

Naruto's case... well there is no real reason Naruto held back his speed. Saying "plot" comes across as you grasping straws. I say that because we have seen Naruto only utilise said speed when these foes don't bother concentrating on Naruto.



> er no it's not sensing the level or abilities of your sensing OBVIOUSLY allows you to detect opponents and attacks better.



Yes, he can sense all he likes, but if two opponents are giving him a very hard time, there is not much he'll be able to do against a third who can also give him a very hard time. More so when said opponent can just blind sight him. That could turn out wrong if Obito teleported above and spammed the Outer Path stakes; Naruto and Minato's Kyuubi powers would be suppressed if it landed on them.



> All of that is irrelevant since if obito's attention has to be on absorbing minato's shroud, not getting tagged, and nagato's attention has to be on shinra tenseing minato in addition to not getting beat by him (same for madara) then that takes away their focus from naruto and thus naruto has the warryness to sense obito and not get warped.



Obito just has to touch the shroud to absorb it, no special attention is needed given the absorbing process is very rapid. He could always use a ST to prevent himself from being tagged. 
Nagato doesn't need to waste a ST, when Obito a Rinnegan user can do the same jutsu.

Nagato and Madara are sensors, the latter has the ability to use Mokuton and high level Outer Path stakes. Both powers that can easily subjugate Naruto's powers.



> i'm sure anybody can put two and two together that Naruto has beaten preta path with pure senjutsu volume, thus naruto with nigh infinite BSM chakra vs the rinnegan speaks for itself.



That is only if you make the mistake in assuming Senjutsu chakra = naturla energy. This notion requires you to ignore that the Preta Path power has absorbed Senjutsu several times, even Sage Mode itself. 
The only time it lost is when Naruto's chakra was being absorbed _while_ taking in natural energy.

In other words to support the notion you're purporting here requires you to ignore all the Senjutsu absorbing feats, and wrongly interpret that any Senjutsu contains as much Senjutsu chakra as an individual gathering natural energy.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 10, 2013)

> I took into account the scaling when I made that statement as standard bijuudamas produce far more power than the chou shinra tensei that pain used on konohoa (OBD calcs) and naruto can make bijuudamas that are hundreds of times larger than normal ones in just BM.
> And shinra tensei can't just dispel bijuudamas that 's why pein opted to banshou tennin a cliff into KN6 and take part of the explosion instead of just repelling the dama.



Once again, you don't know that. I say this because you're assuming one jutsu causes a super massive explosion therefore it beats another jutsu that you feel did less.
This notion forces you to ignore the mechanics of the two jutsu you are comparing. Furthermore your arguments will completely lose credibility if you start using OBD calcs. 

Why would Pain use Shinra Tensei on a foe who wouldn't be pushed away the first time? Banshou Tenin was the only logical choice. 
Bijuu-Dama is still a jutsu, it can be repelled easily by Shinra Tensei; the repelling will be made easier ITT given there are three _real_ Rinnegan users who can use the jutsu, not a puppet like Pain.



> Preta path can't absorb natural energy if it did it would naturally turn into a frog anytime it used its powers as natural energy is everywhere.  Preta path only absorbed naruto's chakra after he entered Sennin mode and pa stated that he absorbed too much senjutsu.



Who said Preta Path can absorb natural energy? I'm merely saying you're wrong in thinking that Senjutsu chakra is a huge threat, when said Path has canonically absorbed several Senjutsu (via two users). 

You hinge on Fukasaku's comment, but choose to ignore Naruto's own comment as well as the Preta Path feats. While not considering the Preta Path's working; it reverses chakra flow. Apparently natural energy within Senjutsu is not good enough to turn any Rinnegan user into stone. Only absorbing natural energy whilst a Sage is entering SM can do that.

You're wrongly assuming that it applies to Senjutsu based jutsu, which has shown to be false.


> rinnegan summons and madara's mokuton are complete fodders against people who can fire a bijuudama as hashirama's mokuryu mokujin and far bigger flower tree world were all wiped out by just a single normal bijuudama.
> 
> Sure Obito can use kamui on his comrades, but he's going to have to fight right next to both if he wants to save both of them when they are in cooldown.  And if you actually read my posts I never took a formal stance on who actually wins this, I just had qualms about your reasoning.



However that was someone using Mokuton alone, which btw, managed to actually bind Kurama. It was Perfect Susanoo which stopped the Bijuu-Dama from smacking Kurama by Mokuton's hand.
ITT, there are Rinnegan users who can use jutsu like ST and Preta Path to null the efforts of Kurama.
The Rinnegan summons are going to be problematic when there is a summon that refuses to die; it will multiply.

Shinra Tensei can be used sparingly when there's the Preta Path being used. Furthermore we've seen God Path users can actually fly; Nagato did twice as Pain and Madara used said power to get to Obito's location. 
An alternative view is that Madara can use an unstablised PS to tank one Bijuu Dama, whilst Nagato flies high enough to escape the blast. 

Of course the Bijuu-Dama argument becomes questionable when PS enters the scene. Remember if an unstablised version can tank the Bijuu-Dama, then a stablised version is more than capable of tanking it. 

Obito could stay with his comrades, and canonically will. He'd only try to blind sight Naruto or Minato if the opportunity presented itself. Much like it did against Naruto prior Kakashi warning him.

I haven't taken a stance either. However I disagree with a lot of the Minato-Naruto reasoning because I believe they neglect a lot of key details.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 10, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> .
> Now you're just making up excuses. Here Preta is absorbing senjutsu right here
> Link removed
> Preta is stated to have absorbed too much of naruto's sage mode chakra or senjutsu which turned him into stone.
> ...



Your actual argument was that you didn't know. Like I said in this thread, put that together with Naruto's actual comments and the stuff we've seen from that power and you'll get it is the natural energy. 

It is fine to say too much natural energy. The pain for you is to prove other Senjutsu contain as much natural energy as the process of entering SM, wherein you are exposed to limitless amounts of natural energy till you get the amount you need.

While not considering Naruto's words, the natural energy process _and_ the Preta Path feats. You also didn't consider how the Preta Path actually works -- it reverses chakra flow.



> .
> I told you I already know he has sensing abilities a lot of ninjas do but it won't help him that much in this fight.



You're only saying it won't help him in this fight. You have given no reasoning for why though.


> .
> Nope Nagato can't react to anything near naruto's full speed. Nobody in naruto has. Preta path fails, I already proved this.



Firstly, your "proof" neglected a lot of details. Secondly Nagato, even guys like Obito and Madara, fought Naruto. Naruto choose not to use his speed. Guess why? 

.


> Again Obito and madara have the sharingan which improves their reaction by a lot.


 
Naruto moves faster than the Sharingan can perceive.



> .
> Why are you trying to compare the juubi(who already blitzed naruto) to nagato?



You haven't answered the question, if speed can get the job done, by have back up? If it could do the job with Nagato, why need Itachi and Bee? If it could with Obito and Madara, why need Gai, Bee and Kakashi?



> .
> Naruto never tried to blitz nagato and his brain was turned off in that fight.



"His brain was turned off in that fight" = you have no real argument. 



> .
> When did madara teach obito shinra tensei?? I also told you how naruto counters it if they have it.



In Obito's flashback, Madara outwardly said he'd teach Obito the Six Paths jutsu. 



> .
> I don't see why it still wouldn't work, at best naruto might be pushed back a bit



Naruto would be dealing with more powerful Shinra Tensei. Naruto is stronger than he was when he was in KN6, he got still got pushed pretty far by a strong Shinra Tensei.



> .
> All he needs to do is warp out of obito kamui before he sucks them up. It's not that hard. whoever absorbs the arms turn to stone.



According to Obito, he can warp Minato faster than the latter can react with Hiraishin.

The "whoever absorbs arms turn to stone" notion relies on faulty foundations.



> It's naruto AND minato not naruto by himself, he has his father who also has BM. No naruto had malice sensing not sage mode sensing which increases his sensing abilities by a lot which is why he sensed the entire war. Why would naruto and minato be hiding and why would they use it on nagato? They can easily use it on madara or obito and distract them long enough to kill them. PS gets destroyed by a super sage enhanced TBB or a sage enhanced ultimate TBB with minato. You're forgetting naruto and minato can make BM clones which can also use TBB's. I also think minato's clones can use FTG kunai so they have to worry about that as well. Minato or his clones can put tags on naruto's clones and him. They have to worry about redirected TBB's and Rasenshurikens warping right into them. Super TBB takes out nagato and either kills or breaks madara's PS. Then after they take out madara they team up on obito.



How do you think Naruto sensed Minato before he entered the battlefield, and how do you think he sensed the Bijuu's chakra? 

The Frog Song needs to be used on all opponents, it doesn't help if one of the opponents knows about it. Especially when said opponent can tell his comrades about it.

PS could be destroyed, but not if another Rinnegan user intercepts and either absorbs or repels it.

Shinra Tensei can get rid of the kunai threat and if Madara's Moku Bunshins still have Bijuu suppressing capabilities. So even if they're destroyed they can still bind the opponents. 

If Obito, Nagato and Madara fight like Genin ninja, then what you say could happen. However with the ability to absorb and repel Naruto and Minato's jutsu, that won't happen. The warping is something team Rikudou have to watch for... However Naruto and Minato can easily have their powers suppressed if they fight carelessly and underestimate their opponents the way you are.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 10, 2013)

Naruto & Minato survived super Mokuton.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Your actual argument was that you didn't know. Like I said in this thread, put that together with Naruto's actual comments and the stuff we've seen from that power and you'll get it is the natural energy.
> It is fine to say too much natural energy. The pain for you is to prove other Senjutsu contain as much natural energy as the process of entering SM, wherein you are exposed to limitless amounts of natural energy till you get the amount you need.
> While not considering Naruto's words, the natural energy process _and_ the Preta Path feats. You also didn't consider how the Preta Path actually works -- it reverses chakra flow


.
. You know that If pain was absorbing "natural energy" then pain would turn to stone whenever he started absorbing something since it comes from everywhere right?. You're conceding this point as I already showed you one of the two sage masters stating what preta absorbed, and showed you naruto himself stated it. I keep repeating myself to you while you ignore it and make up excuses. I don't have to show you anything. 




> You're only saying it won't help him in this fight. You have given no reasoning for why though


.
You haven't given a reason as to how it would help him win. I don't see how chakra sensing would help him. He doesn't have pre cognition or anything so why would he need it?




> Firstly, your "proof" neglected a lot of details. Secondly Nagato, even guys like Obito and Madara, fought Naruto. Naruto choose not to use his speed. Guess why


?
Kishi hardly ever lets naruto use his flash shunsin. He wasn't even using his speed against them.

.




> Naruto moves faster than the Sharingan can perceive


.
Yup and Nobody so far has reacted to his shunsin as well.



[OUOTE]You haven't answered the question, if speed can get the job done, by have back up? If it could do the job with Nagato, why need Itachi and Bee? If it could with Obito and Madara, why need Gai, Bee and Kakashi[/QUOTE]?
Juubito already blitzed naruto and he has the juubi, you know the thing that hashirama admitted inferiority to? Again Naruto didn't even use his speed against nagato and he barely had any chakra. Kish didn't allow him to. Give me another reason why naruto wouldn't spam it all the time.



"





> His brain was turned off in that fight" = you have no real argument


.
Naruto forgot all of nagato's technique right after fighting him, couldn't use clones, and was very low on chakra. You're entire argument relies on made up things you call "facts". 





> In Obito's flashback, Madara outwardly said he'd teach Obito the Six Paths jutsu.


Scan of madara saying he would teach him ST. If obito could use all of nagato's techniques why didn't he use them when he was fighting naruto and kakashi?





> Naruto would be dealing with more powerful Shinra Tensei. Naruto is stronger than he was when he was in KN6, he got still got pushed pretty far by a strong Shinra Tensei.
> According to Obito, he can warp Minato faster than the latter can react with Hiraishin.
> The "whoever absorbs arms turn to stone" notion relies on faulty foundations


.
Doesn't matter KN6 already countered it. With the kurama clock tails he withstands it. Considering naruto is the best sensor in the manga and minato's reactions have been increased due to BM and he probably has malice sensing so I doubt it. Faulty? Facts straight from the manga are? Hmmmmmmm uhhh ck.





> How do you think Naruto sensed Minato before he entered the battlefield, and how do you think he sensed the Bijuu's chakra?


Naruto only did that because of the chakra the bijuu gave him earlier and sage mode improves sensing.


> The Frog Song needs to be used on all opponents, it doesn't help if one of the opponents knows about it. Especially when said opponent can tell his comrades about it.
> PS could be destroyed, but not if another Rinnegan user intercepts and either absorbs or repels it


.
Again Nagato is destroyed by a TBB or blitzed. I don't see how having knowledge would help. They still can't do anything if he catches them in it. The rinnegan user that is absorbing gets turned into stone.



> Shinra Tensei can get rid of the kunai threat and if Madara's Moku Bunshins still have Bijuu suppressing capabilities. So even if they're destroyed they can still bind the opponents


.
Naruto already defeated the wood dragon. Mainato can do the same thing naruto did. 



> if Obito, Nagato and Madara fight like Genin ninja, then what you say could happen. However with the ability to absorb and repel Naruto and Minato's jutsu, that won't happen. The warping is something team Rikudou have to watch for... However Naruto and Minato can easily have their powers suppressed if they fight carelessly and underestimate their opponents the way you are.


They can't stop a super sage enhanced TBB. They can't stop a combined sage enhanced TBB. Right from the start that kills nagato and breaks Madara's PS or kills him. Then he gets overwhelmed with TBB's from clones and the real naruto  and minato. Seriously minato and his and naruto's clones will be warping everywhere and redirecting TBB's. I don't see how the other team stops that.


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## ueharakk (Sep 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Natural energy was said to be hard to control; you're trying to generalise it to the byproduct of said control - Sage chakra.
> 
> I've seen your explanation, but you ignored Naruto's own input that it was the natural energy from the SM entering process that turned Pain into stone. Supported by the fact the databook explicitly says SM takes in lots of natural energy _and_ the fact Senjutsu which contained a lot of natural energy was absorbed a lot of times in the manga.


This post you've just typed has just flat out ignored my explanation as I've already covered why pain couldn't have absorbed natural energy by itself.  In addition to that we get explicit manga statements about how pain *absorbed too much SAGE CHAKRA* which pretty much prove my point that it's the natural energy within the sage chakra that pain absorbs that turns him into stone as he can't absorb raw natural energy.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Not necessarily. It just means we wouldn't readily use someone's performance as an accurate reflection of their ability if they weren't in control of their actions. For instance, when Kabuto controlled the Raikage he completely neglected the Raikage's black lightning, much like he neglected Nagato's sensory abilities and Preta Path set up. Though for the Preta Path, you can argue that he knew Nagato could tank the hit (there was no dust flying around when he got hit).


Edo tenseis are by default forced to react to attacks even if they are under full puppet mode by their own reactions.  It was never ever stated or implied in the manga that edo tensei's REACTIONS or abilities were in any way hindered due to them being a full puppet.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That makes you wrong. Seeing as we saw Kabuto chose to use the Preta Path after he was hit. Preta Path was able to react to Ninjutsu at the last minute e.g. when the super fast FRS almost hit God Realm. To add perspective, Naruto said Nagato's jutsu are not only stronger than Pain's, but also _faster_.


That in no way makes me wrong you've pretty much once again ignored my post as it already explains these points you've brought up.  Nagato saw FRS coming from a long way and preta path had time to react to it and prepare preta path, nagato saw bee enter V2 lariat and use it when he was in pursuit of bee and the guy was only a couple of meters in front of him.  Sure nagato's jutsu are stronger and faster, but that doesn't mean the time  to ACTIVATE those jutsus are faster.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That logic makes no sense. If Naruto could use his speed to make a tremendous difference against foes like Nagato, Madara and Obito, then like I said they wouldn't always put him in a bind.


you're pretty much saying absence of evidence is evidence of absence which is a flat out logical atrocity.  And since you haven't touched the argument about how nagato would be able to absorb the rasengan, then I guess you agree and concede that point.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You have no real indication that the Preta Path power had a warning sign. You can argue that Naruto with his reflexes could form a Rasengan quick... but to deny that implies SM Jiraiya can attack faster than KCM Naruto.
> Of course we can take the obvious picture: the Preta Path barrier can be set up as the user wishes, making the most sense with Naruto seeing as Nagato's execution speed is faster than Psn's.


Jiraiya made the rasengan while he was moving to preta, and nagato didn't even know which one of his paths was being attacked until jiraiya was attacking them.  Naruto flat out announced his attack to nagato and the target was obvious.  In addition to that, SM Jiraiya doesn't need to make a chakra arm in order to make a rasengan.  So nope, SM Jiraiya doesn't have to be able to attack faster than KCM Naruto in order for that to be true.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ranton traveled while Madara was blinded with light.


the light blinded the juubi, madara is a sensor, and his reactions are better than nagatos.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato has several times; with Killer B, that was Kabuto in control.


nope, not against an attack as fast and out of the blue as bee's.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hard to do when he's injured and when Obito is there defending the statue while having the capacity to summon Bijuu suppressing stakes.


 

This is concessionary dishonesty.  Bee up and tried to punch the statue, then sat on the sidelines twiddling his thumbs while obito's full focus was on fighting naruto gai and kakashi.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Naruto couldn't fodderise the Mokuryu; Mokuryu fodderised him.* Also Mokuryu could be faster than you're giving it credit for.


The bolded is a concession on your part as well since you've basically restated what happened in the plot yet given no arguments for why naruto couldn't fodderize mokuryu despite the technique being busted by the mere traveling force of a bijuudama and being blown to bits by the blast radius of one.  If you want to argue mokuryu is faster than what i give it credit for, support it with reasoning.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except Madara explicitly told us he just wanted to test his powers.


when?  WHEN did madara say that?  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Juubi could, but it seems its controllers didn't seem to do it fast enough.


Concession accepted.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Each of those examples you gave had a logical reason behind it. Just like with Naruto not using his insane speed; it wouldn't work on certain opponents.


Nope, if you look at the explanations you've given none of them are logical reasons they go completely against the intents of the person who opts to not use those things.

Oh if you want to talk about logical reason, I could give you reasons for naruto not using his insane speed on obito, nagato and madara:  
Nagato: he had less than 7% of his chakra, only wanted to talk chibaku tensei came out.
Obito: didn't want to kill him.
Madara: only got serious against him when mokuryu came out.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You don't quite understand what you're implying here. *The sole fact that there is no panel of Naruto using his super speed against Nagato automatically tells us that Naruto believed it wouldn't work. *
> People could believe you if you said Naruto was holding back on Itachi... but now if you're going to claim he was holding back on Nagato, eyebrows will raise.


Concession accepted.
So bee just standing around and not nuking gedo mazou means he couldn't do so.  Kyuusanoo not nuking base hashirama with 11 bijuudama swords means he couldn't do so. 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto doesn't move in an instant; Hiraishin is moving in an instant. Naruto just has super speed, which is what Shunshin is.
> As foes like Madara, Nagato and Obito have shown, reacting to Naruto's attacks isn't hard for opponents of a certain tier with particular abilities. More so with abilities which do not require movement like Shinra Tensei.


None of those guys have ever shown reacting to naruto's movement speed, you've even said it yourself that naruto HAS NEVER used shunshin on those guys.  In addition to that, it's instant as far as anyone who's ever seen naruto use his shunshin can tell.  No one has ever been able to react to it.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You have no real argument though. Your claim is Naruto would use super speed. You then inadvertently acknowledge that Naruto has never used his super speed on Rikudou opponents. However rather than taking it as Naruto believing that wouldn't work, you take it as it was held back. Despite the fact that these Rikudou foes have still been able to counter Naruto's attacks despite his increase speed.


You are the one with no real argument.  If naruto speed would be innefective on these opponents, then we'd get at least a single instance SHOWING that his speed would be inneffective against those opponents.  Yet we have none, and absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence which is what you are trying to tout time and time again in this thread.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You didn't answer anything. The fact that a distracted opponent from a certain tier could still react to Naruto's attack automatically discredits your speed play argument.


that's a tacit concession on your part as you have ignored my argument for the third time.  Not only have you straight up changed your stance (as your original stance was that naruto's speed only works on these guys when they are distracted, now you are saying that while distracted these guys can still react to naruto's speed) but I've already shown that unless you believe that naruto's shunshin speed is so slow that he can mutter sentences and form a mini bijuudama in the time it takes him to traverse a couple of feet, then madara did NOT react to naruto's shunshin speed.


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## ueharakk (Sep 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Are you not getting it? The very fact Naruto chose _not_ to use his speed directly on Obito should tell you that he didn't think it would work. Hence the need to not use it directly on Obito.
> 
> 
> Now if Naruto's super speed stops becoming a huge factor when Obito concentrates on him... that says a lot.


yeah no absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence the manga is LITTERED with characters chosing not to do certain actions despite those actions giving them easy wins.  

Also, you've tacitly conceded this point as well since you've completely ignored my comparison MS Sasuke's reactions to these top tier's own and an ignored argument is a conceded one.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Again you do realise that you're suggesting Naruto himself is thinks that his Shunshin wouldn't be a huge difference maker against these guys right?


Once again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and unless you want to say that PIS does not exist, this point holds zero water.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> "Held back by plot" is only valid when there is an actual plot factor holding the character back. In Obito's case, choosing to use Pain rather than utilising the Rinnegan and MS concurrently; Madara's case, choosing to test his powers; Nagato's case, being controlled by someone who doesn't know his full abilities.


Madara in no way stated he wanted to test his powers on Naruto and co, he only stated that when talking about the gokage.  When fighting naruto and co he was all to ready to obliterate them with the juubi's bijuudama.  
And yes, the plot factor that holds naruto back is that Madara and especially obito have to survive the battle against him while having his teamates involved.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto's case... well there is no real reason Naruto held back his speed. Saying "plot" comes across as you grasping straws. I say that because we have seen Naruto only utilise said speed when these foes don't bother concentrating on Naruto.


Once again you'd have to argue that PIS does not exist, characters not using X ability is somehow evidence that they can't or that that ability would be inneffective.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, he can sense all he likes, but if two opponents are giving him a very hard time, there is not much he'll be able to do against a third who can also give him a very hard time. More so when said opponent can just blind sight him. That could turn out wrong if Obito teleported above and spammed the Outer Path stakes; Naruto and Minato's Kyuubi powers would be suppressed if it landed on them.


Obito is never hitting naruto with outer path stakes as naruto was able to repell those things with fodder chakra cloaks used by thousands of shinobi and the firing of stakes has a wind up time.  And he doesn't HAVE to do anything to obito other than get away from him.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Obito just has to touch the shroud to absorb it, no special attention is needed given the absorbing process is very rapid. He could always use a ST to prevent himself from being tagged.


nope, obito has to concentrate on what he is trying to absorb and in terms of the reactions of naruto and minato, the absorbing time is in no way fast as we see how long it takes him to absorb gai's nunchuks.

And wait, are you giving obito the ability to use pain rikudou's jutsus?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato doesn't need to waste a ST, when Obito a Rinnegan user can do the same jutsu.
> 
> Nagato and Madara are sensors, the latter has the ability to use Mokuton and high level Outer Path stakes. Both powers that can easily subjugate Naruto's powers.


Nope, obito has never used ST and his paths have never used it either, therefore by your logic, it would be innefective against opponents as weak as kakashi and gai let alone BM Naruto and Minato.  Path stakes aren't hurting or even penetrating naruto's cloak as he's deflected them with fodder chakra shrouds madara's mokutons are fodder compared to naruto and minaato's firepower.  None of that stuff is subjugating any of naruto's powers.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That is only if you make the mistake in assuming Senjutsu chakra = naturla energy. This notion requires you to ignore that the Preta Path power has absorbed Senjutsu several times, even Sage Mode itself.
> The only time it lost is when Naruto's chakra was being absorbed _while_ taking in natural energy.


Concession accepted as this is like the 4th time you have ignored my argument and an ignored argument is a conceded one.  You are just restating points that I have already addressed if you don't want to concede this you have to address the post you are quoting.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In other words to support the notion you're purporting here requires you to ignore all the Senjutsu absorbing feats, and wrongly interpret that *any Senjutsu contains as much Senjutsu chakra as an individual gathering natural energy.*


this here is concessionary dishonesty.  Since when in the hell am i arguing the bolded?  I am arguing that a bijuudama made of senjutsu chakra is going to have more senjutsu chakra than what naruto can generate on his own not that ANY senjutsu is going to have more senjutsu chakra than naruto can generate on his own.  Do NOT attack strawmen do NOT ignore my arguments doing so shows that you don't have a counter to my own and if you have no answer to my arguments, then you've got no reason to disagree with them.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Once again, you don't know that. I say this because you're assuming one jutsu causes a super massive explosion therefore it beats another jutsu that you feel did less.
> This notion forces you to ignore the mechanics of the two jutsu you are comparing. Furthermore your arguments will completely lose credibility if you start using OBD calcs.


This is all pretty much false.  Arguments don't lose credibility by using OBD calcs, they lose credibility by using OBD calcs as hard truth while ignoring any other kind of reasoning.  I've shown my reasoning for why the attacks are at least comparable in power you've given none so all you are doing is throwing skepticism which means my argument is the one that should be accepted since you've got no counters for it.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Why would Pain use Shinra Tensei on a foe who wouldn't be pushed away the first time? *Banshou Tenin was the only logical choice.
> Bijuu-Dama is still a jutsu, it can be repelled easily by Shinra Tensei; the repelling will be made easier ITT given there are three _real_ Rinnegan users who can use the jutsu, not a puppet like Pain.


i don't know maybe because using shinra tensei on KN6's bijuudama would have been a way better alternative than allowing the nuke to explode in his general vicinity.  Let me ask you, what hurt Deva more the explosion of the bijuudama or the backlash of KN6's shinra tensei.  Yeah shinra tensei would not have worked.

Oh Susanoo is a ninjutsu, does that mean that a fodder shinra tensei dispells susanoo?




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Who said Preta Path can absorb natural energy? I'm merely saying you're wrong in thinking that Senjutsu chakra is a huge threat, when said Path has canonically absorbed several Senjutsu (via two users).
> 
> You hinge on Fukasaku's comment, but choose to ignore Naruto's own comment as well as the Preta Path feats. While not considering the Preta Path's working; it reverses chakra flow. *Apparently natural energy within Senjutsu is not good enough to turn any Rinnegan user into stone. Only absorbing natural energy whilst a Sage is entering SM can do that*.


I'm not ignoring naruto's own comments or preta path's feats as they fall perfectly in line with fukasaku's comment.  Senjutsu is made up of natural energy so naruto's comment about pain not being able to control natural energy would be true while fukasaku's statement is true.  The bolded is again a concession on your part as i've already show that the bolded is in no way true.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're wrongly assuming that it applies to Senjutsu based jutsu, which has shown to be false.


explained this point many times already, concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However that was someone using Mokuton alone, which btw, managed to actually bind Kurama. It was Perfect Susanoo which stopped the Bijuu-Dama from smacking Kurama by Mokuton's hand.
> ITT, there are Rinnegan users who can use jutsu like ST and Preta Path to null the efforts of Kurama.
> The Rinnegan summons are going to be problematic when there is a summon that refuses to die; it will multiply.


saying cereberus multiples to infinity is a no limits fallacy,
the rest is a pure resume post that has already been addressed.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Shinra Tensei can be used sparingly when there's the Preta Path being used. Furthermore we've seen God Path users can actually fly; Nagato did twice as Pain and Madara used said power to get to Obito's location.
> An alternative view is that Madara can use an unstablised PS to tank one Bijuu Dama, whilst Nagato flies high enough to escape the blast.


Unstabalized PS does not have the feats to tank a super bijuudama that's as big as PS itself, Madara didn't fly to the battlefield which is why he crashlanded, nagato has never flown higher that the blast radius of a super dama.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Of course the Bijuu-Dama argument becomes questionable when PS enters the scene. Remember if an unstablised version can tank the Bijuu-Dama, then a stablised version is more than capable of tanking it.


it was in the act of leveling up so any damage it would have received by the STANDARD bijuudama would have been repaired offpanel.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Obito could stay with his comrades, and canonically will. He'd only try to blind sight Naruto or Minato if the opportunity presented itself. Much like it did against Naruto prior Kakashi warning him.


Already covered this.  and obito does not stay with his comrades to turn them intangible, he did that ONE time to save sasuke.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I haven't taken a stance either. However I disagree with a lot of the Minato-Naruto reasoning because I believe they neglect a lot of key details.


dude the reasoning that you are using is pretty much ignore my own arguments over and over and would have you assert that PIS does not exist.


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