# Minato Has a Great Genjutsu Counter



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Minato actually has a simple maneuver that would cancel the effects of all Genjutsu on him and this is simply teleporting a massive distance away from the enemy, which should not be difficult since he has tons of Kunai scattered all over the place, including in Konoha. Now here's the reason why this would work. Genjutsu =

​
So Genjutsu essentially amounts to controlling a person via their chakra and senses. And AO States [and I have 2 different quality translations of it]:


*Spoiler*: __ 





princess of iwagakure said:


> Shikaku: There can be no other explanation than that they are manipulating the shinobis of the five nations by genjutsu.
> Shikaku: Could it be Itachi?
> Ao: Only a guy like Itachi would *be able to stay at a distance where our sensor unit cannot sense him and manipulate through genjutsu.*..but
> Ao: It is impossible for even Itachi to manipulate many people precisely and simultaneously at different locations in such a wide range!





Souzousaisei said:


> 「オレ達感知部隊からも感知されない距離に隠れて幻術で操れるような奴は　うちはイタチくらいだが…　  これだけの広範囲の各場所で大勢を細かく同時に操るのはイタチでも無理だ！」
> 
> "*A guy who can control people using Genjutsu while hiding in a far enough distance that even we sensor team cannot detect...* is probably only Itachi Uchiha... But to control masses in different places in such a huge area, simultaneously and so meticulously... even Itachi Uchiha can't do that!"
> 
> Guy didn't mention CASTing from a long range... maintaining is what they implied, and where common sense would bring us. *After all, Genjutsu works on five senses, and from miles away, there will be no way to affect any of those senses.*






Essentially AO is saying that the only person he knows of that could manipulate people with Genjutsu at such a large distance is Itachi. This means that everyone else's Genjutsu would fall apart if they were far enough away from the target that the sensors could not perceive them. This also falls in line with the fact that most Genjutsu are short range techniques:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique: Short Range [0m - 5m]
2. Tsukuyomi: Short Range
3. etc...




Now of course a skilled practitioner like Itachi or Sasuke can probably exceed that range of 5m, in-fact we are told Itachi can at least control one person outside the range of sensors with Genjutsu, but even Itachi probably could not control Minato with Genjutsu, if he teleported to his farthest FTG Kunai/Seal which could easily be hundreds of miles away. 

So For example: if Minato and Itachi are fighting at the Valley of the End and Minato gets caught in Binding Genjutsu, he could just teleport back to Konoha and that should release him from the effects of the Genjutsu, since even Itachi should not be able to control people at such a massive distance since it was made into a big thing that he could even do it outside the sensor range let alone such a massive distance. Than once Minato is released from the Genjutsu he can just teleport back to the battlefield.

This should even work against Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi is an incredibly fast technique that can make 1 second seem like 3 days, but FTG is even faster than that. So once Minato gets trapped in Tsukuyomi he can just activate FTG and teleport away breaking the Genjutsu. And we know that a shinobi can activate abilities in Tsukuyomi if he's quick enough since we've seen Sasuke activate his Genjutsu counter while in Tsukuyomi. .

*Conclusion*​As long as Minato realizes he's in Genjutsu, than he should be able to use FTG to teleport out of the Genjutsu user's range and instantly free himself from any type of Genjutsu even Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Daylight (Jul 31, 2011)

TBQH I always thought that this was obvious. Very nice post explaining it though. + reps


----------



## Coldhands (Jul 31, 2011)

Huh. Well this makes sense. +reps

Ohwait... "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Turrin again."


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2011)

Depends on the genjutsu. For some genjutsu you need to dispell it first to be able regain the control of your actions. 

For example the finger genjutsu which Itachi used on Naruto cannot be dispelled by the method you mentioned, because the victim does not have control over his actions in the real world.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

"even tsukuyomi" I gotta admit i laughed at that. Once you get tsukuyomi'd you have no control, because it's itachi's world. He controls time and space/ matter everything


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Depends on the genjutsu. For some genjutsu you need to dispell it first to be able regain the control of your actions.
> 
> For example the finger genjutsu which Itachi used on Naruto cannot be dispelled by the method you mentioned, because the victim does not have control over his actions in the real world.


Yes you do have control over your actions in the real world since we saw Naruto perform Kai, which Itachi actually said was not too bad. 



T-Bag said:


> "even tsukuyomi" I gotta admit i laughed at that. Once you get tsukuyomi'd you have no control, because it's itachi's world. He controls time and space/ matter everything


And I already showed how Sasuke was able to use abilities within Tsukuyomi. So your wrong.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2011)

Of course Minato can break Tsukuyomi.  

It's not like Tsukuyomi is instantly delivered to the brain, so teleporting elsewhere won't stop the delivery of the genjutsu. Other than that, we've known teleportation is better than kais for torture and binding illusions.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

Its obvious that Minato had counters to genjutsu. This is just one more explanation on why the Greatest Uchiha ever thought genjutsuing Minato was futile.


----------



## hmph (Jul 31, 2011)

Hmm I wonder about Frog Song, that which "paralyzes the nervous system."


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Its obvious that Minato had counters to genjutsu. This is just one more explanation on why the Greatest Uchiha ever thought genjutsuing Minato was futile.



Because Minato can break a genjutsu that subdued a perfect jinchuuriki for years, right? 

Madara doesn't use genjutsu until his opponents have been physically incapacitated or defeated. This is in no way indicative of Minato's ability to break it, especially when it's on such an advanced level.


----------



## Shikamaru Nara (Jul 31, 2011)

It would probably work well against a normal genjutsu, true.But not with Tsukuyomi.Since Itachi can control Space/Time in his dimension.Even if Minato recognizes Tsukuyomi fast and can teleport himself , it could already have been a few days in Itachis dimension.Kakashi said 3 days are less than a second in the real world.


----------



## Talis (Jul 31, 2011)

But if you are in genjutsu you wont be able to do any shit right? Even teleporting.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Because Minato can break a genjutsu that subdued a perfect jinchuuriki for years, right?
> 
> Madara doesn't use genjutsu until his opponents have been physically incapacitated or defeated. This is in no way indicative of Minato's ability to break it, especially when it's on such an advanced level.



You realize to genjutsu you must be in range and control the other persons chakra. Guess who can instantly teleport


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Yes you do have control over your actions in the real world since we saw Naruto perform Kai, which Itachi actually said was not too bad.
> 
> 
> And I already showed how Sasuke was able to use abilities within Tsukuyomi. So your wrong.



He didn't use any abilites. He had resistance because of uchiha blood + sharingan. The whole thing happened in a split second.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

Uchiha blood has nothing to do with anything my friend 

I guess the Senju had this "Uchiha blood" too :rofl


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Uchiha blood has nothing to do with anything my friend
> 
> I guess the Senju had this "Uchiha blood" too :rofl



It has a lot to do with it "friend" you outta read kakashi vs Itachi 

We're talking about Tsukuyomi here. Theres no proof Madara had Tsukuyomi, at least not on Itachi's level.


----------



## Nois (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> You realize to genjutsu you must be in range and control the other persons chakra. Guess who can instantly teleport



This is an extremely valid point I think. Minato's a T-S/seal specialist, so it ould seem reasonable that he has not only high-level mastery of his on chakra, but can also work around genjutsu bending time and space


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> You realize to genjutsu you must be in range and control the other persons chakra. Guess who can instantly teleport



And you do realize Minato must be aware of the fact that he's in genjutsu? Being completely brainwashed might make it hard to teleport.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Jul 31, 2011)

While this indeed applies for a lot of genjutsu, it wouldnt be so for Tsukiyomi, where 72 hours = 1 sec

Minato would not be able to use abilties in real world. Sasuke vs Itachi all happened inside his mind. *Sasuke did not use any abilities in the real world*. Also not to mention Itachi was helding back big time vs Sasuke. It was not the Tsukiyomi that Kakashi experencied


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> It has a lot to do with it "friend" you outta read kakashi vs Itachi
> 
> We're talking about Tsukuyomi here. Theres no proof Madara had Tsukuyomi, at least not on Itachi's level.



Manga scans or no proof.

Your saying the greatest uchiha ever, that even Itachi stated he needed the EMS to beat to have a genjutsu on Itachi's level? I see ya trollin'


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Manga scans or no proof.
> 
> Your saying the greatest uchiha ever, that even Itachi stated he needed the EMS to beat to have a genjutsu on Itachi's level? I see ya trollin'



I don't have to be trolling. Madara, Itachi, Sasuke are all uchiha, yet they specialize in different areas.


----------



## Ana (Jul 31, 2011)

i thought only a Uchiha can break Tsukuyomi, and itachi even said that didn't he? 
 so i kind of think Minato would be screwed at that point


----------



## Nois (Jul 31, 2011)

Shadowstring98 said:


> i thought only a Uchiha can break Tsukuyomi, and itachi even said that didn't he?
> so i kind of think Minato would be screwed at that point



Itachi mentioned only someone with sharingan can compete with it. But I guess just like a lot of other stuff from Part 1, this could be BS by no.

I mean, Naruto's fingers have arms...


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> I don't have to be trolling. Madara, Itachi, Sasuke are all uchiha, yet they specialize in different areas.



Ok since you believe that Madara doesnt have a strong genjutsu, even though Itachi stated he couldnt kill Madara without the EMS, then Im not going to argue.

Manga > you


----------



## Milliardo (Jul 31, 2011)

i think thats true turrin but i've always thought that about minato. i think madara could pull it off as well.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Ok since you believe that Madara doesnt have a strong genjutsu, even though Itachi stated he couldnt kill Madara without the EMS, then Im not going to argue.
> 
> Manga > you



Okay man listen. You have to understand that Madara is a uchiha, and has the counters to genjutsu, genetically. So despite Itachi's tsukuyomi being a god like ninjutsu, it's futile against Madara. However it's not futile against _anyone else_.

Madara has strong genjutsus in general, but not the neccessary genjutsus to win him a _battle._ I don't know if you noticed but he only uses genjutsu when his opponents has been captured.



Turrin said:


> Yes he did Sasuke countered Tsukuyomi through using his Three Tome Sharingan. Zetsu explains the entire thing, go back and read the Uchiha brothers battle again.



That's not a jutsu, that's something that happens passively. In other words it's automatic. In the real world, he broke tsukuyomi instantly.


----------



## Nois (Jul 31, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> That's not a jutsu, that's something that happens passively. In other words it's automatic. In the real world, he broke tsukuyomi instantly.



Are you saying a regular tomoe fighting back Tsukiyomi is a passive skill? Because if yes, then you're wrong. Itachi was impressed with Sasuke being able to do that, Zetsu jizzed over it at first. And it was explained countless times that the sharingan is only as good as its wielder.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Nois said:


> Are you saying a regular tomoe fighting back Tsukiyomi is a passive skill? Because if yes, then you're wrong. Itachi was impressed with Sasuke being able to do that, Zetsu jizzed over it at first. And it was explained countless times that the sharingan is only as good as its wielder.



It has been stated multiple times in the manga that sasuke's sharingan is special. It has more potential than Itachi's and is directly compared to Madaras.

So yes thats what Im saying. His sharingan has incredible resistance.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> That's not a jutsu, that's something that happens passively. In other words it's automatic. In the real world, he broke tsukuyomi instantly.


If it happens passively there should have been no Tsukuyomi at all, but instead we see Sasuke get hit by some of the Tsukuyomi and than it gets broken. So no your wrong.

The whole reason Tsukuyomi leaves most people helpless is because it happens very quickly and itachi can also control the dimension rendering people unable to physically move like he did to Kakashi with binding him on the cross. However if you have an ability thats fast enough and doesn't take physical movement to activate there is absolutely nothing saying such an ability can't be used. Minato has such an ability so there is no reason why he can't use it.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> If it happens passively there should have been no Tsukuyomi at all, but instead we see Sasuke get hit by some of the Tsukuyomi and than it gets broken. So no your wrong.
> 
> The whole reason Tsukuyomi leaves most people helpless is because it happens very quickly and itachi can also control the dimension rendering people unable to physically move like he did to Kakashi with binding him on the cross. However if you have an ability thats fast enough and doesn't take physical movement to activate there is absolutely nothing saying such an ability can't be used. Minato has such an ability so there is no reason why he can't use it.



It's just effects. But like I said, in the real time tsukuyomi was broken by Sasuke instantly; the moment Itachi used it.

It just seems long because it is all happening in Itachi's dimension


----------



## Nois (Jul 31, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> It has been stated multiple times in the manga that sasuke's sharingan is special. It has more potential than Itachi's and is directly compared to Madaras.
> 
> So yes thats what Im saying. His sharingan has incredible resistance.



Where did you get such a stat as sharingan resistance from though? I do know his sharingan is special, and that Sasuke himself is a genius in his own right, but still, having sharingan doesn't grant one a greater control over his own chakra flow. If any, it obviously enhances one's understanding of his own chakra, but it was never even mentioned that sharingan = complete Tsukiyomi immunity.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> It's just effects. But like I said, in the real time tsukuyomi was broken by Sasuke instantly; the moment Itachi used it.
> 
> It just seems long because it is all happening in Itachi's dimension


Dude if it happened instantly there would have been no time in Tsukuyomi. What your saying defies all logic and defies what was stated in the manga by Zetsu about Sasuke proactively using his Three Tome Sharingan to overcome Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2011)

Since when can ninjutsu be used in Tsukuyomi? It's an instant delivery of three days worth of information. Sasuke didn't actually use the Curse Seal or do anything but "eat" a Tsukuyomi as Zetsu stated.

Naruto didn't actually use a Rasengan inside Itachi's genjutsu. In case you didn't know, genjutsu takes place inside the mind. You need to shake off the Yin dominating your chakra system before you can do anything in reality.

I suggest that you just drop trying to out-logic the manga, and simply plug your ears when someone says Minato is vulnerable to genjutsu like the vast majority of characters in Narutoverse.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Dude if it happened instantly there would have been no time in Tsukuyomi. What your saying defies all logic and defies what was stated in the manga by Zetsu about Sasuke proactively using his Three Tome Sharingan to overcome Tsukuyomi.



3 days in tsukuyomi = split second in real time.
Which means tsukuyomi is INSTANT, and therefore it was broken instantly. Sasuke's sharingan is very potent and thus had the ability to counter it.


----------



## Nois (Jul 31, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> 3 days in tsukuyomi = split second in real time.
> Which means tsukuyomi is INSTANT, and therefore it was broken instantly. Sasuke's sharingan is very potent and thus had the ability to counter it.



There is no real explanations on the mechanics of the jutsu. If the person's mind spends some 'time' under Tsukiyomi, and the people in there can converse this means they very well come up with solutions.

The fact that irl Tsukiyomi lasts a split second doesn't mean the mind of the person subjected perceives time in the same time, as time is relative. A split second could very well be eternity depending on how you look at it. Hence, even if it was broken in split second irl, Sasuke still could benefit from the 'time' he spent under it, to break out of it.

Physics

Also, as far as we know, Tsukiyomi's success is based on whether the subject is capable of standing straight afterwards, as it generally lasts a split seacond. So how long it lasted is irrelevant, but what should be of issue here is that despite being cas it had no effect on Sasuke whatsoever, hence the comment on him eating it.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 31, 2011)

All I know is that since Genjutsu-Kai is a way to break genjutsu...then Ninjutsu can be used while you're under the illusion of a genjutsu

And since FTG is instant activation...well...hehe...


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Since when can ninjutsu be used in Tsukuyomi? It's an instant delivery of three days worth of information. Sasuke didn't actually use the Curse Seal or do anything but "eat" a Tsukuyomi as Zetsu stated.
> 
> Naruto didn't actually use a Rasengan inside Itachi's genjutsu. In case you didn't know, genjutsu takes place inside the mind. You need to shake off the Yin dominating your chakra system before you can do anything in reality.
> 
> I suggest that you just drop trying to out-logic the manga, and simply plug your ears when someone says Minato is vulnerable to genjutsu like the vast majority of characters in Narutoverse.


Genjutsu does not happen all in someones mind, rather it just a Genjutsu user taking control of their five senses and making them see/feel what they want them to see/feel. This is how Genjutsu has always been explained. We have also seen plenty of people use Techniques or complete physical actions while under Genjutsu. 

When Itachi was trapped in Kurunai's Genjutsu he used the Technique Magen: Kyō Tenchi-ten to reverse the Genjutsu on Kurunai. Kurunai than physically bit her lip to release from the Genjutsu via Pain. 

When Tayuya used her Genjutsu against Shikkamaru he used Kage Mane no Jutsu to physically break his finger and release him from the technique via Pain. 

When Itachi cast finger Genjutsu on Naruto he physically used Kai in an attempt to break free from the Genjutsu, which Itachi even says Naruto's gotten better. 

When Itachi caught Sasuke in Tsukuyomi. Sasuke was able to physically use his Three tome Sharingan to break free. 

So Techniques and Abilities can be used in Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi is no exception. The only difference is its very hard to use Techniques in Tsukuyomi, because no many people possess a techniques that is faster than Tsukuyomi and Itachi can also bind people's movements in Tsukuyomi like he did with putting Kakashi on the cross. Minato is simply one of the few people who has a move faster than Tsukuyomi which he doesn't need to move or use Hand-seals to activate.

As for the stop trying to outlogic the manga comment, your just but hurt that I found a completely logical way for Minato to counter Genjutsu.




T-Bag said:


> 3 days in tsukuyomi = split second in real time.
> Which means tsukuyomi is INSTANT, and therefore it was broken instantly. Sasuke's sharingan is very potent and thus had the ability to counter it.


No 3 days in Tsukuyomi = a second in real time, we are blatantly told this by Asuma in the manga. So any Jutsu faster than a second could be used during the duration of Tsukuyomi. Minato was stated to be capable of using multiple Harishin in the blink of an eye during Kakashi Gaiden. A blink of an eye is about 1/15th of a second, so Minato should be able to use FTG over a dozen times before even 5 hours pass in Tsukuyomi.  So Minato should easily be able to escape Tsukuyomi after only a few minutes have passed with FTG, much like how Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi after a few minutes have passed with the very fast Three Tome Sharingan ability.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2011)

Naruto never attempted a Kai in reality. He was just standing blank when moments before he was crying and grabbing his own throat.

And lol @ "physically using" your eyes in a genjutsu, which revolves around sensory perception, as opposed to using ninjutsu.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

I believed most of this already to be the case, but he cannot break Tsukyomi because it is _instant_, not a second.

The time period to do anything is too minuscule.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Naruto never attempted a Kai in reality. He was just standing blank when moments before he was crying and grabbing his own throat..


Yes he did, if he never physically used Kai why would Itachi remark that Naruto has gotten better right after he used Kai. Naruto's hand grabbing his throat was just an illusion so of course that was not real. Another example B was already in Itachi's illusion when he tried to grab him with the tentacle, which even after the illusion was broken we are shown that B actually completed that action.

So no you can not deny that someone can actually perform physical actions or techniques in an illusion when I have provided tons of examples of this. Another example being both times Deidara was in an illusion or when Sasuke was in Itachi's illusion and used chidori eisou. 



> IIIusion said:
> 
> 
> > I believed most of this already to be the case, but he cannot break Tsukyomi because it is _instant_, not a second.
> ...


Asuma states it was a second in the manga.


----------



## ki0 (Jul 31, 2011)

I think it depends on the genjutsu whether or not the opponent can make physical movements.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't believe it was ever stated to be an second. It has been stated to be an instant twice though.
1 grabbing
2 grabbing

edit: Kio has it right but Turrin does also kinda. You can move during genjutsu. If your paralyzed you can't move or are hindered though.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Yes he did, if he never physically used Kai why would Itachi remark that Naruto has gotten better right after he used Kai.



Itachi is aware of when someone fights his genjutsu, but Naruto wasn't moving at all. Not when he was moving his legs. Not when he was moving his arms.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 31, 2011)

From Ao's line, it might just be casting that's the issue over long-distances, with maintaining proximity not really being an issue.  From Ao's perspective, definitely Itachi would have needed to cast the genjutsu from outside of sensor range.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jul 31, 2011)

Classic Turrin thread...


If he realizes he's in a genjutsu, half the work is done....

But in Tsukiyomi's case, it happens too fast that he wouldn't be able to react in time and teleport


----------



## Nois (Jul 31, 2011)

Godtachi said:


> Classic Turrin thread...
> 
> 
> If he realizes he's in a genjutsu, half the work is done....
> ...



Unless he's got some seal jutsu on him that activates automatically upon any chakra flow interference

IT's not beyond the universe's possibilities.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Itachi is aware of when someone fights his genjutsu, but Naruto wasn't moving at all. Not when he was moving his legs. Not when he was moving his arms.
> 
> And you've provided examples of weak genjutsu when we both know we're talking about supreme genjutsu users, because nobody fucking argues that Tayuya or Kurenai defeat Minato with genjutsu with their current feats.


You have absolutely no proof that Naruto was not moving and how could Naruto be trying to break Itachi's illusion if he was actually doing nothing this makes no sense 

I provided examples of people moving while in Itachi's illusions. Deidara, B, and Sasuke.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2011)

The Kai positioning is irrelevant. It's his rapid chakra fluctuation that mattered. And why would Naruto be moving in the Kai position and not be moving when throwing kunai and charging at Itachi's Kage Bunshin? Just because?

Deidara moved because Itachi wanted him to move. He almost killed himself. Bee didn't move. He was in genjutsu for a mere moment.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

The definition of instant is an _imperceptible _amount of time. So the time of realization and then execution would have to happen in a time frame that _cannot_ be perceived.

So, we can perceive individual seconds for instance. We can perceive times _slightly_ even faster than seconds. Tsukiyomi is over _before_ perceiving of the moment is possible.

Turrin, you never responded.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> .
> No 3 days in Tsukuyomi = a second in real time, we are blatantly told this by Asuma in the manga. So any Jutsu faster than a second could be used during the duration of Tsukuyomi. Minato was stated to be capable of using multiple Harishin in the blink of an eye during Kakashi Gaiden. A blink of an eye is about 1/15th of a second, so Minato should be able to use FTG over a dozen times before even 5 hours pass in Tsukuyomi.  So Minato should easily be able to escape Tsukuyomi after only a few minutes have passed with FTG, much like how Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi after a few minutes have passed with the very fast Three Tome Sharingan ability.



I don't know if you take me for a kindergarten graduate, but the "blink of an eye" notion was clearly a hyperbole. Tsukuyomi is instant, so there is no way in hell Minato can 1. figure he's in a genjutsu 2. put up hand seals to use hiraishin and 3. get his body out of the area, all in _under_ a second. Sorry man not possible. 

Once caught in tsukuyomi it's over, there is no escaping it, unless you have the genetics required to counter tsukuyomi. You are simply looking too much into this.


----------



## Distance (Jul 31, 2011)

But as soon as you look into Itachi's eyes the genjutsu is cast, and you're under the illusion. Saying that Minato can counter it by using Hiraishin during the illusion will be false because he is already immobilised by it, and under the complete control of Itachi. Only Sasuke has countered it because it's been stated by Itachi that only a sharingan user can counter it, and also B because he had help from an external force (his bijuu). Minato doesn't have neither of those things, so how can he possibly counter it? The only way I see him doing so is if he summons a frog to help snap him out of it long before the battle even starts.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Jul 31, 2011)

If hes in a genjutsu he can't teleport away because hes in a genjutsu, he would have to break it first. Your assuming you can use jutsu in the real world while in a genjutsu which would defeat the purpose of it.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Strategos said:


> The Kai positioning is irrelevant. It's his rapid chakra fluctuation that mattered. And why would Naruto be moving in the Kai position and not be moving when throwing kunai and charging at Itachi's Kage Bunshin? Just because?
> 
> Deidara moved because Itachi wanted him to move. He almost killed himself. Bee didn't move. He was in genjutsu for a mere moment.


Who says he wasn't moving? 

B moved during the Genjutsu, generating a tentacle and having it erupt from the ground, which remained even after the Genjutsu was broken. 

No where in the manga does it state you can't move when a Genjutsu is used, this is totally made up by you. There is a reason why their is a completely different type of Genjutsu, I.E. Binding Genjutsu.



Hexa said:


> From Ao's line, it might just be casting that's the issue over long-distances, with maintaining proximity not really being an issue.  From Ao's perspective, definitely Itachi would have needed to cast the genjutsu from outside of sensor range.


Translation and Translators made it clear that this is not the issue.



IIIusion said:


> The definition of instant is an _imperceptible _amount of time. So the time of realization and then execution would have to happen in a time frame that _cannot_ be perceived.
> 
> So, we can perceive individual seconds for instance. We can perceive times _slightly_ even faster than seconds. Tsukiyomi is over _before_ perceiving of the moment is possible.
> 
> Turrin, you never responded.



Asuma says its one second in the official Viz Translation which is way better quality than Inane. "One Second that guy's talking and the next second you hit the ground." Kakashi also indicates time has passed saying, "Ugh I see three day in that realm and less than a moment passed in this one." A Moment being 1.5 minutes. 

And I never responded because like 8 people are arguing with me at once. 



T-Bag said:


> I don't know if you take me for a kindergarten graduate, but the "blink of an eye" notion was clearly a hyperbole. Tsukuyomi is instant, so there is no way in hell Minato can 1. figure he's in a genjutsu 2. put up hand seals to use hiraishin and 3. get his body out of the area, all in _under_ a second. Sorry man not possible.
> 
> Once caught in tsukuyomi it's over, there is no escaping it, unless you have the genetics required to counter tsukuyomi. You are simply looking too much into this.


Oh I get it when it comes to Minato its a hyperbola, but when it comes to Itachi its not. Yeah truly you are not biased. Ether we should accept both are true or both are probably hyperbola.



Distance said:


> But as soon as you look into Itachi's eyes the genjutsu is cast, and you're under the illusion. Saying that Minato can counter it by using Hiraishin during the illusion will be false because he is already immobilised by it, and under the complete control of Itachi. Only Sasuke has countered it because it's been stated by Itachi that only a sharingan user can counter it, and also B because he had help from an external force (his bijuu). Minato doesn't have neither of those things, so how can he possibly counter it? The only way I see him doing so is if he summons a frog to help snap him out of it long before the battle even starts.





DarkRasengan said:


> If hes in a genjutsu he can't teleport away because hes in a genjutsu, he would have to break it first. Your assuming you can use jutsu in the real world while in a genjutsu which would defeat the purpose of it.


You can use Jutsu and Techniques while under an illusion, we have seen people do this before in the manga. Hell this past chapter we saw B use a Hachibi tentacle while under Itachi's illusion, before breaking the Illusion. The only Illusion techniques that prevent you from completing actions are binding Illusion techniques, but Minato doesn't even need to move to use FTG, so even those won't stop him.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Translation and Translators made it clear that this is not the issue.


They did not, or at least the translation did not. And the circumstances make it pretty necessary that Itachi cast the genjutsu from outside sensor range.


----------



## ki0 (Jul 31, 2011)

When Itachi and Sasuke shot genjutsu back and forth neither of them moved.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin, if you can provide links that'd be good.

Asuma saying it lasted a second and Kakashi saying it lasted a moment contradict each other. In the scanulation I used, there is no contradiction. The moment is instantaneous.

Kakashi says it is instant while fighting Itachi a second time later on with chiyo and company.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Hexa said:


> They did not, or at least the translation did not. And the circumstances make it pretty necessary that Itachi cast the genjutsu from outside sensor range.


It was in my opening but here:

Originally Posted by Souzousaisei  
「オレ達感知部隊からも感知されない距離に隠れて幻術で操れるような奴は　うちはイタチくらい だが?　 これだけの広範囲の各場所で大勢を細かく同時に操るのはイタチでも無理だ！」

"A guy who can control people using Genjutsu while hiding in a far enough distance that even we sensor team cannot detect... is probably only Itachi Uchiha... But to control masses in different places in such a huge area, simultaneously and so meticulously... even Itachi Uchiha can't do that!"

Guy didn't mention CASTing from a long range... maintaining is what they implied, and where common sense would bring us. After all, Genjutsu works on five senses, and from miles away, there will be no way to affect any of those senses.


----------



## Distance (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> You can use Jutsu and Techniques while under an illusion, we have seen people do this before in the manga. Hell this past chapter we saw B use a Hachibi tentacle while under Itachi's illusion, before breaking the Illusion. The only Illusion techniques that prevent you from completing actions are binding Illusion techniques, but Minato doesn't even need to move to use FTG, so even those won't stop him.



But you have to be concious and in control of your own mind when Tsukuyomi is cast, and that is something you just can't do, because Sasuke and Itachi are in control of it. What's the point of an ultimate genjutsu that you're supposed to control a persons mind with, if they still have control of their mind and are using jutsu?


----------



## Alex Payne (Jul 31, 2011)

"Classic Turrin Thread"

1) Several types of genjutsu wouldn't allow Minato to use FTG without dispelling them first
2) Tsukiyomi is definitely too fast to use FTG and try to counter it
3) I suggest you reread the chapter where Kabuto showed the mechanics of Edo Tensei to Madara. Madara said that he kept Fu and Torune under his genjutsu. In his own pocket dimension. Some genjutsu doesn't require user to constantly control chakra of their victims. Temple of Nirvana comes to mind too.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin, Minato has formed seals to use Hiraishin on panel.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> It was in my opening but here


Yeah, I saw that post both when you posted it and the original thread where it was posted.    And he just says that the line doesn't specify that it's "casting" the genjutsu, and then says that he personally thinks casting genjutsu over long ranges is impossible.  It's not a translation issue.

But Itachi having cast the genjutsu from outside of sensor range is absolutely necessary given the circumstances  (or he has an ability like Muu).


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the act of using Hiraishin alone would break a genjutsu because of how it works.  Minato actually teleports, thus temporarily leaving this dimension, and likely breaking any illusion he is in.  A genjutsu user cannot maintain a genjutsu on someone who literally isnt there.  His chakra trace would vanish entirely, so the genjutsu would automatically break.

He doesn't have to go far at all, since Hiraishin is a space/time jutsu, and not a shunshin.

EDIT:  This should apply to ALL genjutsu, even the almighty Tsukuyomi.  I'm pretty sure, however, that Tsukuyomi could prevent Minato from using it...because of how dominating the jutsu is on a ninja's mind.  If a Tsukuyomi user doesn't prevent Minato from using Hiraishin, then that would break as well.


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 31, 2011)

so kakashi should be able to kamui itachi in his own dimension?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

IIIusion said:


> Turrin, if you can provide links that'd be good.
> 
> Asuma saying it lasted a second and Kakashi saying it lasted a moment contradict each other. In the scanulation I used, there is no contradiction. The moment is instantaneous.
> 
> Kakashi says it is instant while fighting Itachi a second time later on with chiyo and company.


I can't provide links because this is from a physical copy of the volume i own. If you goto a book store and read vol 16 it's in their.

And no, what Asuma says does not conflict with what Kakashi said. Asuma indicates it took about a second and Kakashi indicates it was less than a moment which is 1.5 minutes, a second is less than a moment. So both are just saying that a small amount of time passed, but time did pass. Its not instant.

As for what Kakashi says the next time, I don't have that official Viz volume but I wouldn't trust that translation ether Inane is a really bad translator that makes tones of mistakes. But even in that translation Kakashi just says Tsukuyomi can take affect on a person in an instant not that the duration of the jutsu is an instant. Furthermore its a pretty obvious hyperbola.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Its duration is irrelevant if you suffer the affects instantly. That just means he'd teleport after he had already experienced everything.

Your using a translation you prefer over two that said it was instantaneous. That is very poor imo. You should not hold the last part of your argument as fact that tsukiyomi can be broken.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Yeah, I saw that post both when you posted it and the original thread where it was posted.    And he just says that the line doesn't specify that it's "casting" the genjutsu, and then says that he personally thinks casting genjutsu over long ranges is impossible.  It's not a translation issue.
> 
> But Itachi having cast the genjutsu from outside of sensor range is absolutely necessary given the circumstances  (or he has an ability like Muu).



I don't know where you got it from that it was just his opinion, because he clearly states the text implies that it has to do with maintaining control rather than casting. This other better translation also implies its maintain control thats the issue as welll:

Shikaku: There can be no other explanation than that they are manipulating the shinobis of the five nations by genjutsu.
Shikaku: Could it be Itachi?
Ao: *Only a guy like Itachi would be able to stay at a distance where our sensor unit cannot sense him and manipulate through genjutsu*...but
Ao: It is impossible for even Itachi to manipulate many people precisely and simultaneously at different locations in such a wide range!


----------



## Googleplex (Jul 31, 2011)

Tsukuyomi I might give you.

Other Genjutsu, I can't so readily.
Itachi can control people over a long distance, Ao said Itachi could not control _multiple_ people over a long distance.
Granted Minato could warp very far, too far, but will he always have a kunai/seal that far?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

IIIusion said:


> Its duration is irrelevant if you suffer the affects instantly. That just means he'd teleport after he had already experienced everything.
> 
> Your using a translation you prefer over two that said it was instantaneous. That is very poor imo.


Sigh... no caught in a Genjutsu instantly, but that doesn't mean that you'd instantly feel the dress of the 72 hours of torture instantly, that takes at least a second to complete.

Yes I am using a translation that I prefer, but that is because its far better quality than the translation that you posted. The official Viz translation is done by guys that are professional translators for a living. Your translation is done by a guy who made horrendous mistakes especially when he was translating the Itachi/Kisame chapters. 

However personally I feel like its poor of you to say its poor of me to value a higher quality translation over an inferior one, while you make the choice to adhere to an inferior translation just because you want to believe in a hyperbola of a technique being instant.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I don't know where you got it from that it was just his opinion, because he clearly states the text implies that it has to do with maintaining control rather than casting. This other better translation also implies its maintain control thats the issue as welll


It's definitely just opinion given 2ch's reaction to the comment.  Hell, HBK definitely took the implication that Itachi _cast_ the genjutsu from that range.  But maybe the issue you're having is with "manipulate".  That word is definitely there, but it's just describing the actions of "shinobi", who are being manipulated.  

Itachi never entered sensor range, so for this whole line of reasoning to make sense he would had to have been capable of casting the genjutsu from outside of sensor range.  And perhaps that's the specialness of Itachi, rather than the ability to _maintain_ control.  Alternatively, the ability to maintain control is what made Itachi special and not necessarily his ability to cast genjutsu while remaining outside of sensor range.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

How is it hyperbole? Tsukiyomi was stated to be the supreme genjutsu. Its only reason for being supreme is that it must be different from other genjutsu. Its speed is what makes it difficult to break.

Any unbiased person would tell you tsukiyomi is difficult to break because of its duration.

This scan does not have horrible errors at all, and you still ignore it. None of these chapters have horrible grammar or _anything_. Look at the panel with the explanation mark over Naruto in a speech bubble


----------



## DarkRasengan (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Who says he wasn't moving?
> 
> B moved during the Genjutsu, generating a tentacle and having it erupt from the ground, which remained even after the Genjutsu was broken.
> 
> ...



Didn't he use the tenticle inside the illusion? and it could be that itachi made it as realistic as possible.


----------



## Guiness (Jul 31, 2011)

I disagree Turrin.

If Minato uses FTG in Tsukiyomi, then he'll be using FTG IN HIS MIND will he not. He won't be using it in the actual real world. Also, in order for him to break Tsukiyomi he'll have to find someway to hurt his actual body so he can snap out of it because no one in the entire series has ever been shown to escape a genjutsu without some form of external influence.
Then we have Tsukiyomi; no one has ever escaped it. Sasuke escaped a Tsukiyomi in which it was not offensive at all and was rather weak to the one delivered on Kakashi, then plus Sasuke has his Sharingan. I sincerely doubt Minato can escape it.

To perform a jutsu, one must first break the genjutsu and then do their business. One can't just perform a jutsu while in a genjutsu and then expect it to affect their actual reality. It doesn't work that way, which you seem to be insinuating for Minato, which leads me to think your just riding his dick. :ho

Give some very convincing evidence that Minato can somehow escape Tsukiyomi and then you'll have a point. As for him countering actual genjutsu, I believe a way for him to do so is by affecting his actual body through pain. he can't use an actual jutsu in a genjutsu because it'll only happen in his mind so my guess is that someone with his ability and tenacity can simply cause some form of pain to himself or flunctuate his actual chakra.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

So wait, he is actually complaining that Turrin is using the better translators?


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

No one has provided me with a translation better than this one that called the technique instant. I can't even debate it because people won't bring up the counter translation.

Sort this out with Onoki


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Hexa said:


> It's definitely just opinion given 2ch's reaction to the comment.  Hell, HBK definitely took the implication that Itachi _cast_ the genjutsu from that range.  But maybe the issue you're having is with "manipulate".  That word is definitely there, but it's just describing the actions of "shinobi", who are being manipulated.
> 
> Itachi never entered sensor range, so for this whole line of reasoning to make sense he would had to have been capable of casting the genjutsu from outside of sensor range.  And perhaps that's the specialness of Itachi, rather than the ability to _maintain_ control.  Alternatively, the ability to maintain control is what made Itachi special and not necessarily his ability to cast genjutsu while remaining outside of sensor range.


If you want to go with HBK translation over two superior translations and the opinion of another translator, than that's fine. To me from all translations its sounds like what's special about Itachi is that he can maintain control over long distances, which is not surprising since mot Genjutsu are short range techniques. 



IIIusion said:


> How is it hyperbole? Tsukiyomi was stated to be the supreme genjutsu. Its only reason for being supreme is that it must be different from other genjutsu. Its speed is what makes it difficult to break.
> 
> Any unbiased person would tell you tsukiyomi is difficult to break because of its duration.
> 
> This scan does not have horrible errors at all, and you still ignore it. None of these chapters have horrible grammar or _anything_. Look at the panel with the explanation mark over Naruto in a speech bubble


Its a hyperbola because Amaterasu was also called instant and than we now have people dodging it. So Kishi does this dumb hyperbola all the time. And I agree with you that Tsukuyomi is so powerful because of the speed of the technique, but Minato's FTG is simply faster than Tsukuyomi. Its not really that bad if thee fastest man in the world through manipulation of space/time is one of the few people faster than a technique, the technique is still dam fast.

And of course there is the fact that it was never called Instant to begin with in better translations.



IIIusion said:


> No one has provided be with a translation better than this one that called the technique instant. I can't even debate it because people won't bring up the counter translation.
> 
> Sort this out with Onoki


I provided you with a better translation. If you choose to ignore it its up to you.




DarkRasengan said:


> Didn't he use the tenticle inside the illusion? and it could be that itachi made it as realistic as possible.


He used the Tentacle inside the illusion and than it was still there after the illusion was over, showing you can use physical actions/techniques while under Itachi's illusions. In-fact there is no reason to think otherwise. 

Don't you think there is a reason why there is a specific type of Genjutsu meant to bind the enemy?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> So wait, he is actually complaining that Turrin is using the better translators?



He's pointing out that Turrin was being misleading in translation deduction. The issue was ambiguous language-wise.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

No. He stated he uses a different translation to fit his argument when actually he is using the better translation.


----------



## Schiffer (Jul 31, 2011)

the moment he is in a genjutsu all his senses are under the user control depending on the level of the user of course. Being able to teleport does not save you from these effects because you wont be able to perceive things in a normal way. Min could believe he could teleport but he would actually being doing so. Jutsu's like Tsukuyomi where the user can control the amount of time that is flowing are still going to effect him.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2011)

"Better" being his opinion.

I think I'll go with 2ch on this one.


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> So wait, he is actually complaining that Turrin is using the better translators?



Yes..because it doesnt support his counter-argument.  So instead he is insisting that we use that one.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

You never provided me with the appropriate translation of that phrase Kakashi said Turrin.

If it is so powerful because of its speed, then why is it being instant hard to believe?

Tsukiyomi is always instant. Hiraishin sometimes requires seals.


----------



## Marco (Jul 31, 2011)

Most genjutsu as long as Minato recognizes them, this should work against. Not sure how effective it'd be against sharingan though, specifically something like a paralyzing genjutsu like the one Sasuke used against B or Tsukuyomi.

Basically, if Minato is paralyzed, then he can't make the hand seal for hiraishin. And in tsukuyomi, I'm not sure hiraishin would work.

But against pretty much everything else, Hiraishin would be a viable a counter. I doubt someone of Minato's caliber would need to do this unless faced with extremely powerful genjutsu, however.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

Lol random translator vs Official.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 31, 2011)

Nice thread, bust Most people can't tell when they are in genjutsu until something out of the ordinary happens.

Look what happened with Danzou.

If Madara can do a subtle genjutsu that window is more than enough to attack with his space time jutsu.


----------



## nadinkrah (Jul 31, 2011)

So Minato has to run away to break the genjutsu...awy to defend Minato lol


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

Strategos said:


> "Better" being his opinion.
> 
> I think I'll go with 2ch on this one.



When it comes to translations, not necessarily.  There's a right way and a wrong way to do it, thus its not subjective at all.  By "better" we mean "more accurate"...not "uses words I like more".  Some translators take a bit too much liberty in translating words into english, and I'm much more inclined to go with Turrin's sources because they are far more credible than one translation group, and a bunch of internet junkies on 2ch.  Jus sayin.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> If you want to go with HBK translation over two superior translations and the opinion of another translator, than that's fine. To me from all translations its sounds like what's special about Itachi is that he can maintain control over long distances, which is not surprising since mot Genjutsu are short range techniques.


I'm not going with HBK (although HBK has been translating Japanese professionally for quite a few years now).   "To you" it might say that, but it really isn't saying that. 

Circumstances make it necessary Itachi cast the genjutsu from out of sensor range (or he has a Muu-type ability).   But the sentence just doesn't specify at all which one is special, since it's talking about the scenario in the present, where the shinobi have already been controlled by genjutsu.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Amtrack, is this translator illiterate in your opinion? I don't believe this scan was hard to read at all. Or the other scans he translated.

Sort this out with Onoki

I was never provided with the other translation of this, which may also use the word instant.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Marco said:


> Most genjutsu as long as Minato recognizes them, this should work against. Not sure how effective it'd be against sharingan though, specifically something like a paralyzing genjutsu like the one Sasuke used against B or Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Basically, if Minato is paralyzed, then he can't make the hand seal for hiraishin. And in tsukuyomi, I'm not sure hiraishin would work.
> 
> But against pretty much everything else, Hiraishin would be a viable a counter. I doubt someone of Minato's caliber would need to do this unless faced with extremely powerful genjutsu, however.


Minato doesn't need a hand-seal for FTG


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Minato does it fast, but it requires a seal Sort this out with Onoki


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Oh I get it when it comes to Minato its a hyperbola, but when it comes to Itachi its not. Yeah truly you are not biased. Ether we should accept both are true or both are probably hyperbola.



That's the thing. Minato's "blink of an eye" is hyperbole. Obviously, since killing a whole platoon takes  time, because not only do you have to teleport to said person but you also have to strike (at least 50 times). When the fodder said don't blink because he's going to finish it in a blink, he meant that just just watch  how fast the Yellow flash will dispose of his enemies. It's like figure of speech.

On the other hand, tsukuyomi being instant is true, this was said not once but twice, and later supported by the fact  that Itachi's tsukuyomi bends space/time to his will.



Turrin said:


> Minato doesn't need a hand-seal for FTG



He does. One of the reasons why Madara's space/time jutsu is considered superior. Now of course kishi will not draw the handseals every single time. But it is required


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

IIIusion said:


> Minato does it fast, but it requires a seal Sort this out with Onoki



One instance out of the 20x we have seen him do it


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

IIIusion said:


> Amtrack, is this translator illiterate in your opinion? I don't believe this scan was hard to read at all. Or the other scans he translated.
> 
> Sort this out with Onoki
> 
> I was never provided with the other translation of this, which may also use the word instant.



Literacy has nothing to do with it, its all about "word choice".  A common example is the fuck you fodder ninja.  Japanese has no word for "Fuck", or really any word that comes close to "Fuck" in terms of obscenity.  Yet some translators took the liberty of using "Fuck You".  Is it accurate?  Not really.  Do a majority of ppl like it better?  Absolutely.  This is more or less my point.  In order to be a great translator you need a thorough understanding of Japanese and maybe even a more thorough understanding of the English language.

To be frank, you're not gonna find many ppl possessing both.  As an example, are the words moment, instant, and a second all interchangeable?  Technically no, but "a second" is often used interchangeably with the other two in everyday conversation.  Its these kind of word semantics that makes translation so frickin hard, because now you have to deal with that in both languages.

The issue is the use of the word instant, if it that is indeed a literal translation from Japanese...and not poor word choice or hyperbola on the translator's part ("fuck you" is a good example of translator hyperbola).  Since its too much muck to sort through without bringing in the raw and having  Japanese/English professor fill us in, we have to go with credibility based on status (professional or amateur) and reputation/history.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin, he was basically saying _establishing_ control would require him to _be within range_ of the sensors and thus be sensed in the first place.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

IIIusion said:


> Minato does it fast, but it requires a seal Sort this out with Onoki


No it doesn't we have seen him use it w/o a Hand-seal plenty of times. Itachi used hand-seals for Amaterasu, does that mean every time he needs to use hand-seals for Amaterasu no it doesn't. Hand-seals can be used in the case of these jutsu and can not be used. 




T-Bag said:


> He does. One of the reasons why Madara's space/time jutsu is considered superior. Now of course kishi will not draw the handseals every single time. But it is required



Madara's superior because he doesn't have to use a Fuuinjutsu seal, not because of hand-seals. Reread that chapter.



IIIusion said:


> Turrin, he was basically saying _establishing_ control would require him to _be within range_ of the sensors and thus be sensed in the first place.


I know what he's saying, but thats a totally different argument than what I'm talking about in this thread. The text may also imply that Itachi can cast Genjutsu outside the range of sensors, but I don't really care about that for the purpose of this thread.

Edit: Anyway I got things to do for a bit so I'll leave this in the hands of AM Track and Elite Uchiha for now.


----------



## BXisAWOL (Jul 31, 2011)

So basically what you're saying is: Itachi > Minato.


----------



## Marco (Jul 31, 2011)

Nah, I'm pretty sure Minato needs hand seals. We've seen him make them when using hiraishin.

EDIT: Why would Minato use seals at all if they weren't needed?


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

> No it doesn't we have seen him use it w/o a Hand-seal plenty of times. Itachi used hand-seals for Amaterasu, does that mean every time he needs to use hand-seals for Amaterasu no it doesn't. Hand-seals can be used in the case of these jutsu and can not be used.


Itachi's never used handseals before amaterasu. In the manga the handseals he was making for another jutsu were canceled beforehand by Sasuke. Amaterasu is a doujutsu. Hiraishin on the other hand, has no such excuse.

I was never provided with the counter translation of what Kakashi said in chapter 257, which may also say instant. 

@Amtrack
I was never provided with counter material, would it be wrong to accept the scan I provided over one that was never posted than?


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

Hand Seals are almost always optional for jutsu, IIRC using a hand seal just ensures the technique will execute properly/under control.  Once you're at a certain level with a technique, the hand seal really just becomes an optional thing.  Kishi has been pretty inconsistent with what certain ninjas can do with/without hand seals so we can only assume that if its not drawn every time (or close) its not *required*.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 31, 2011)

Marco said:


> EDIT: Why would Minato use seals at all if they weren't needed?



Why would Itachi use handseals for _Amaterasu_ when they weren't needed?


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Madara's superior because he doesn't have to use a Fuuinjutsu seal, not because of hand-seals. Reread that chapter.



Minato needs both.

@Eternal

badass sig man, badass


----------



## Hexa (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> The Translations i'm referring to do specify that what's special is Itachi maintain control and we have a translator that says as much.


You posted the translations.  They don't.  One translator thought it "implied" it (probably because he thought that casting genjutsu from that range is impossible.  HBK certainly felt it implied casting was hard, quick as his translations may be.  I definitely recall questions on 2ch about this topic, so it's definitely not made clear by the Japanese itself), but otherwise?  Nope.  The fact that Ao says "controlling people with genjutsu" is just a reference to the current state of affairs, where in this scenario Itachi is currently controlling people with genjutsu.  It's very possible given the translations you posted that proximity while controlling people with genjutsu is unnecessary.



> So thats three translations vs 1.


 It's not 3 vs 1.  It's "Turrin's interpretation of three translations" vs. 1.


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

IIIusion said:


> @Amtrack
> I was never provided with counter material, would it be wrong to accept the scan I provided over one that was never posted than?



Well of course not..until a better one is posted you have every right to go with that.


----------



## Marco (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't remember Itachi using handseals for amaterasu. Are you sure he wasn't just building up chakra or using a different jutsu and then switched it up or even faked it?


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2011)

Some Genjutsu makes you think you use Jutsu, but in reality you are not. Such Genjutsu would thus also prevent Hiraishin from being activated.

Like the Genjutsu battle with the Uchiha brothers, it seemed they had a great Taijutsu match when in fact they were just standing, seemingly doing nothing as noted by Zetsu. Some Genjutsu simply function in such a way that you may think you are using Jutsu but in reality you are not. These Genjutsu cannot be beaten by Hiraishin. This also goes for Tsukuyomi, since Sasuke never turned CS2 and both he and Itachi were still just standing around, nowhere near a wall.


Finally, the translations provided in the OP aren't the end all. I had a discussion with the translator and he said it's ambiguous himself and basically admitted that it was his opinion because to him the logic doesn't add up. But if someone else can make sense of that logic then that statement/translation basically can't be used as a counter argument. It's ambiguous.



Souzousaisei said:


> I agree that it's a bit ambiguous right now. The reason I'm not fond of this "long range casting" thing is because it contradicts the manga statement about how Genjutsu works.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Itachi has never used hand seals for _Amaterasu_.



> Caption: Kneading chakra and performing seals until the jutsu activates!!
> 
> Main text
> 
> ...


The jutsu is completed immediately after the seal is used. Itachi doing some seals sometime earlier in the fight, then saying they were for _Amaterasu_, which was used later on, has always been false.


----------



## Kisame (Jul 31, 2011)

Eternal said:


> Why would Itachi use handseals for _Amaterasu_ when they weren't needed?



Itachi did not use seals for Amaterasu.


----------



## Kirin (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> This should even work against Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi is an incredibly fast technique that can make 1 second seem like 3 days, but FTG is even faster than that. So once Minato gets trapped in Tsukuyomi he can just activate FTG and teleport away breaking the Genjutsu. And we know that a shinobi can activate abilities in Tsukuyomi if he's quick enough since we've seen Sasuke activate his Genjutsu counter while in Tsukuyomi. .
> 
> *Conclusion*​As long as Minato realizes he's in Genjutsu, than he should be able to use FTG to teleport out of the Genjutsu user's range and instantly free himself from any type of Genjutsu even Tsukuyomi.



Once Minato is on Tsukuyomi, he can't make any movement. Itachi has the control of space, time and gravity inside the genjutsu. Sasuke was using his sharingan to break genjutsu, he had it activated way before Itachi used Tsukuyomi; he wasn't moving on the physical world at all. It was a battle between sharingans. How Minato would teleport in the physical world when he is receiving 3 days of pain in one second in an illusion? The pain can be felt while you are on it. You only can move once you break it, not while you are on the illusion as we could see with Sasuke and Killer Bee. You need the sharingan or someone to disrupt your chakra.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 31, 2011)

Marco said:


> I don't remember Itachi using handseals for amaterasu. Are you sure he wasn't just building up chakra or using a different jutsu and then switched it up or even faked it?



[1][2][3]

Until you can prove "he switched it up" or "he faked it" then I'm inclined to believe the implication in the provided pages.

Illusion, that is old information that has been contradicted already. If you recall, Jiraiya had to wait for quite some time to summon Ma and Pa. He was forced to maintain a seal for the entire process.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Eternal, jutsu requiring seals are executed immediately after their seals are used. It has _always_ been that way. No one has ever used the seals for something else and saved chakra, it doesn't work that way.

You have an inclination, that can furthermore also vary. The databook directly states it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2011)

Plus we've seen Amaterasu used without seals every single time it was ever used.


----------



## nadinkrah (Jul 31, 2011)

No seals for Itachi against Jiraiya in part 1


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 31, 2011)

Mangekyo sharingan jutsu don't require seals.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 31, 2011)

Kakashi _gathered chakra,_ _talked a bit,_ and then _initiated Kamui._ So yes, it does operate that way, Illusion.


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

Correct me if im wrong but i remember seeing Itachi use seals for Katon and not use seals for Katon.  So someone please tell me how can anyone determine whether something requires or doesnt require hand seals.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

Three instances where Itachi needed to use a seal to use Amatseru. What more do you want.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

Eternal, Jiraiya had to hold the seal for the duration of the completion of his technique. It wasn't just a regular summoning. It was the amphibian technique to fuse them directly to his being.

Basically, the jutsu is _initiated_ after the seal completion, but its completion period can vary. Case in point the shinigami. Minato completes the seals, the jutsu is initiated, and then the technique is completed sometime later. 

No technique has ever broken that rule laid out by the databook.

edit: The same applies to Kakashi activating his mangekyo.


----------



## Distance (Jul 31, 2011)

So what's going on now? Hasn't it now been well reasoned, and explained that once Itachi has used Tsukuyomi on Minato, Minato won't be able to use Hiraishin because Itachi has control of his conciousness? Without an external force by his side (bijuu, summon, or another shinobi) or the sharingan, Minato is not getting out of it. This doesn't mean that Itachi is stronger than Minato, it just means that Minato can be beaten by him if he falls into one of the most powerful genjutsu revealed in the manga.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 31, 2011)

Kakashi's initiated _Kamui_ in the third scan, Illusion. He did not initiate it before then. Additionally, his _Mangekyō Sharingan_ was previously activated.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

What does the sharingan have to do with it Distance?


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

What the seal was for is activating his mangekyo because its harder for non-uchiha. Kamui does not require any seals.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Jul 31, 2011)

Well if Minato can activate Hiraishin with his will alone, then he might be able to use it under most Genjutsu, including Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Distance (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> What does the sharingan have to do with it Distance?



Before using it on Kakashi in Part I, Itachi stated that Tsukuyomi can only be broken by a Sharingan user that shares the same blood as him; as demonstrated when Sasuke overcame Itachi's Tsukuyomi in their battle.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Yes you do have control over your actions in the real world since we saw Naruto perform Kai, which Itachi actually said was not too bad.


No he didn't. 
Lol... everything that happened, happened in Naruto's head. 
So I guess Gaara's eye appeared in naruto's hand for real 





> And I already showed how Sasuke was able to use abilities within Tsukuyomi. So your wrong.



Its either because Itachi let him, or Sasuke was able to access his abilities because he had the sharingan.
Besides, Tsukiyomi is a mental realm. Everthing happens inside their minds. In the real world, they just stare @ each other and its over.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

Distance said:


> Before using it on Kakashi in Part I, Itachi stated that Tsukuyomi can only be broken by a Sharingan user that shares the same blood as him; as demonstrated when Sasuke overcame Itachi's Tsukuyomi in their battle.



I thought this was disproved when the Senju beat the Uchiha in every battle.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 31, 2011)

That wasn't what was stated, Illusion. It is implied that he was gathering chakra. You do not have to gather chakra to activate the _Mangekyō Sharingan_ or keep it active.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Jul 31, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No he didn't.
> Lol... everything that happened, happened in Naruto's head.
> So I guess Gaara's eye appeared in naruto's hand for real
> 
> ...



This

20+ people already mentioned it, but with OP you can never be too sure


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2011)

Omg I read some of turrins responses and its just sad.
So you really believe what happens inside the genjutsu is also happening in reality ? 

So Kakashi was tied to stakes when Itachi Tsukiyomi'd him ? 
Or Sasuke was getting his eye ripped out for real ? 

These are the times I really miss the


----------



## slickcat (Jul 31, 2011)

I dont see how when you are in genjutsu in a certain world, how you can control yourself in the outside world. I dont understand this concept, but I can argue that since minato is a sealing expert, he has a counter for genjutsu, not sure of tsukiyomi, depends on how haxxed his fuuinjutsu is.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> I thought this was disproved when the *Senju beat the Uchiha in every battle*.





If the Senju defeated the Uchiha in each of their encounters, they wouldn't be co-founders of Konoha. They'd be dead long before that.


----------



## Distance (Jul 31, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> I thought this was disproved when the Senju beat the Uchiha in every battle.



Maybe the Senju used the standard why of breaking genjutsu with external forces like other team mates or summoning? Again, if Itachi stated that Tsukuyomi can only be broken by a Sharingan user that shares the same blood as him, then that should be the only way a person can do it on their own. Minato is not an Uchiha, so he can't do it on his own.


----------



## IIIusion (Jul 31, 2011)

@Eternal
Generally speaking, you don't need to, but Kakashi, a Non-Uchiha, did. 

The sharingan constantly drains chakra.

It was not directly stated, but it coincides with everything I have said. My explanations have not made one inconsistency to be pointed out in the manga. The counter theory has inconsistencies if we go with it.

Thus, the logical thing to do is conclude that jutsu are initiated after the prerequisite seals are completed, and the period of completion may vary depending on the jutsu in question.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Hexa said:


> You posted the translations.  They don't.  One translator thought it "implied" it (probably because he thought that casting genjutsu from that range is impossible.  HBK certainly felt it implied casting was hard, quick as his translations may be.  I definitely recall questions on 2ch about this topic, so it's definitely not made clear by the Japanese itself), but otherwise?  Nope.  The fact that Ao says "controlling people with genjutsu" is just a reference to the current state of affairs, where in this scenario Itachi is currently controlling people with genjutsu.  It's very possible given the translations you posted that proximity while controlling people with genjutsu is unnecessary.
> 
> It's not 3 vs 1.  It's "Turrin's interpretation of three translations" vs. 1.


I honestly don't see how you can interpret the three translations I posted any other way. HBK's I can see how its open to interpretation, but the other three clearly state Itachi being able to manipulate people at such a distance is special, which also falls in line with what was previously indicated about the ranges of Genjutsu/Sharingan Genjutsu in the DB. Perhaps Itachi is also special because he can cast Genjutsu at that range, but that's a topic for a completely different thread.

*On the Issue of Hand-seals*
Hand-seals just help with Chakra Control and help a person formulate certain jutsu. Once you read a certain level of skill in certain Jutsu hand-seals are not necessary. We were blatantly shown that Minato does not need hand-seals to activate FTG. 

In-fact there is a scene where its impossible that Minato used hand-seals for FTG. I'm referring to the scene where Minato is carrying Kushin and baby Naruto in both his hand and thus its not even physically possible for him to use hand-seals:
_initiated Kamui._

Also another instance where Minato is holding Naruto with both hands and uses FTG:
_initiated Kamui._

Or when Minato is holding Kushina with both hands and uses FTG:
_initiated Kamui._
_initiated Kamui._

Minato probably just used a Hand-seal that one time to conserve chakra, since he didn't need to use FTG as fast as he normally would.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> No he didn't.
> Lol... everything that happened, happened in Naruto's head.
> So I guess Gaara's eye appeared in naruto's hand for real
> 
> ...


Sigh... I never said the illusion parts like Gaara's eye were happening for real I said that people can move and use Techniques while under genjutsu, which we have been shown is the case time and time again.


----------



## Distance (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't know why this is so hard to understand...Turrin's theory is very good, but good reasoning has been given as to why it doesn't work, I've even given the most well known and standard alternative to beating Tsukuyomi, but still it seems like people believe that Tsukuyomi can be stopped by Minato if he uses Hiraishin when he isn't even in control of his mind.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't understand what Kakashi being a non Uchiha has to do with anything, Illusion. It was never stated to have affected the activation of the _Mangekyō Sharingan._ 

I also find it somewhat odd that Kakashi must gather chakra to activate his _Mangekyō Sharingan_ (which doesn't require anymore chakra than the average _Sharingan_ does to sustain) but doesn't have to for _Kamui,_ a technique that drains him considerably.

The rest of your post is somewhat circular. Essentially, you're making a claim (after the seals are completed, the technique is initiated), I challenged said claim and provided evidence (Kakashi's _Mangekyō Sharingan_ does not coincide with this rule) you then make a baseless assertion (that was for his _Mangekyō Sharingan_) and when challenged, you rely on your original claim that I challenged to support your position (after the handseals have been complete, the technique is initiated).


----------



## eyeknockout (Jul 31, 2011)

didn't zetsu directly state and show that sasuke and itachi never moved from their spot during the first moment they encountered each other in the uchiha hideout, while in the manga panels before that, him and sasuke were fighting and using skills. That shows that although sasuke was using techniques in the genjutsu these didn't carry over to reality. how can minato hiraishin out of a high level genjutsu when he cannot move his real (out of genjutsu) body?


----------



## Distance (Jul 31, 2011)

eyeknockout said:


> didn't zetsu directly state and show that sasuke and itachi never moved from their spot during the first moment they encountered each other in the uchiha hideout, while in the manga panels before that, him and sasuke were fighting and using skills. That shows that although sasuke was using techniques in the genjutsu these didn't carry over to reality. how can minato hiraishin out of a high level genjutsu when he cannot move his real (out of genjutsu) body?



Apparently, and for some strange reason, Minato doesn't even need to move to perform Hiraishin. Now you may or not believe that but even if he didn't need to move, his mind is now in control by another person, how could he still use Hiraishin? This is the thing people don't seem to understand.


----------



## Summers (Jul 31, 2011)

This thread is more of a translation battle that A gen-jutsu vs teleportation battle. Anyways nice thread turrin, good luck. I wonder if there is chance we will ever see this tested.


----------



## SageRafa (Jul 31, 2011)

I believe that simply teleporting to any target ( even if he stays on range of the opponent ) will break it , but for that to happen he has to activate the jutsu .

Now , why doesn't he need to teleport that far away ? Because by teleporting you're entering another dimension for a moment . ( Theory : he problably enters one space-time portal that has a "door" in each seal-tag from where he can choose to "exit" ) .

For example Minato to teleport he needs to "dissapear" from a moment , so how will someone control a person that is in another dimension or passed through there ? So I personally believe that just teleporting is enough to break a Gen , but still * he needs to activate the jutsu * .


----------



## Distance (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't even want to say that this is a Minato-fan type thread, because it's Turrin who made this thread after all, and he usually makes pretty decent threads, but I do smell the urge for many of Minato's fans to prove why he's able to accomplish something that's more or less impossible for him to accomplish on his own. Yes he's known for being perfect, but now he's up against something just as perfect as he, and it isn't even another character, it's just one technique, a technique that's just as broken as he is. I don't even know how Itachi can gain any hype from this or make him look better than Minato...

Edit: lol @ Dragonus Nesha editing my post.


----------



## Summers (Jul 31, 2011)

Distance said:


> I don't even want to say that this is a Minato-fan type thread, because it's Turrin who made this thread after all, and he usually makes pretty decent threads, but I do smell the urge for many of Minato's fans to prove why he's able to accomplish something that's more or less impossible for him to accomplish on his own. Yes he's known for being perfect, but now he's up against something just as perfect as he, and it isn't even another character, it's just one technique, a technique that's just as broken as he is. I don't even know how Itachi can gain any hype from this or make him look better than Minato...



I just think this is an interesting thread, not a Minato-fan thread. That fandom are full of gloaters, since Minato is portrayed as perfect in the manga(I dont think he is). All the reasoning they need is Minato's name. Minato. "he can do it because his Minato".


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2011)

Distance said:


> I don't know why this is so hard to understand...Turrin's theory is very good, but good reasoning has been given as to why it doesn't work, I've even given the most well known and standard alternative to beating Tsukuyomi, but still it seems like people believe that Tsukuyomi can be stopped by Minato if he uses Hiraishin when he isn't even in control of his mind.


I don't see where it stated in the manga that people caught in Tskuyomi don't have control of their own mind. Both Kakashi and Sasuke seemed to have perfect control over their own mind within Tsukuyomi. Literally nothing in the manga states that people can not activate Jutsu/abilities within Tsukuyomil.


----------



## moncoeurmysmile (Jul 31, 2011)

As stated in the manga, Genjutsu is a skill requiring high intellect. 

Who in the manga has a higher intellect than Minato ? - Pure Wisdom.

Minato probably knows powerful Genjutsu and has an extremely high amount of genjutsu defense, but his feats were just never shown. 

If Orochimaru can dispel Itachi's genjutsu, I have absolutely no doubt that Minato do the same to extents surpassing the former (Oro).


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

Distance said:


> I don't even want to say that this is a Minato-fan type thread, because it's Turrin who made this thread after all, and he usually makes pretty decent threads, but I do smell the urge for many of Minato's fans to prove why he's able to accomplish something that's more or less impossible for him to accomplish on his own. Yes he's known for being perfect, but now he's up against something just as perfect as he, and it isn't even another character, it's just one technique, a technique that's just as broken as he is. I don't even know how Itachi can gain any hype from this or make him look better than Minato...
> 
> Edit: lol @ Dragonus Nesha editing my post.



The issue here is that both sides are making assumptions, and both sides are also assuming the other side's assumptions are incorrect.

The premise of this thread is that Minato has a genjutsu defense in Hiraishin, and that is true.  The only issue now is whether or not Minato can activate Hiraishin within the most powerful genjutsu, Tsukuyomi.  Unfortunately, we don't have any hard evidence to really nail it down.  Have we ever seen Tsukuyomi used on a top-tier ninja?  No.  We dont know what a stronger opponent than Kakashi would be capable of mentally under such a strong illusion.  We just dont know.

I think we can all agree that *if* Minato can successfully activate Hiraishin within any genjutsu, he would be broken out of it...because Hiraishin is a space/time jutsu.  The only question is if Minato can do that within Tsukuyomi, and the only plausible answers are "Maybe, maybe not".


Tsukuyomi tends to be blown a bit out of proportion in terms of its power.  Many ppl have the idea that its an insta-win jutsu...but given that the senju still managed to dominate the Uchiha I'm going to lean towards "It depends" in terms of its effectiveness.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 31, 2011)

If he is in a genjutsu how would he even know to counter it. Oh yeah. . . we're talking about Minato.


----------



## SageRafa (Jul 31, 2011)

Part 2 Naruto knew he was in a Sharingan Genjutsu , Sasuke and Kakashi when trapped in Tsuky knew they're in a Genjutsu , so wouldn't Minato know exactly why again ?

The only debatable thing is * if * he can activate Hiraishin or not .


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Part 2 Naruto knew he was in a Sharingan Genjutsu , Sasuke and Kakashi when trapped in Tsuky knew they're in a Genjutsu , so wouldn't Minato know exactly why again ?
> 
> The only debatable thing is * if * he can activate Hiraishin or not .



Exactly...lol you did that in a nicer fashion that i was going to >_> that was rich, how would he know if he was in a genjutsu.  

Anyway i dont know about Tsukuyomi, but I do know that using Hiraishin would be similar to disrupting your own chakra like Kakashi/Sakura did against the Itachi clone.  Whether someone is capable of this during Tsukuyomi i have no idea.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 31, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Part 2 Naruto knew he was in a Sharingan Genjutsu , Sasuke and Kakashi when trapped in Tsuky knew they're in a Genjutsu , so wouldn't Minato know exactly why again ?
> 
> *The only debatable thing is  if  he can activate Hiraishin or not .*



That's the second part of my point. The point of the gen is to make inaccessible control of one's body. If you could just use your own body to deactivate gen then everyone would just run out of range.





AMtrack said:


> Exactly...lol you did that in a nicer fashion that i was going to >_> that was rich, how would he know if he was in a genjutsu.
> 
> Anyway i dont know about Tsukuyomi, but I do know that using Hiraishin would be similar to disrupting your own chakra like Kakashi/Sakura did against the Itachi clone.  Whether someone is capable of this during Tsukuyomi i have no idea.



Someone doesn't read whole comments. I acknowledged that as Minato Namekaze he would know.


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

0Fear said:


> Someone doesn't read whole comments. I acknowledged that as Minato Namekaze he would know.



I might be way off but that looked like pretty clear sarcasm to me.


----------



## Kirin (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I don't see where it stated in the manga that people caught in Tskuyomi don't have control of their own mind. Both Kakashi and Sasuke seemed to have perfect control over their own mind within Tsukuyomi. Literally nothing in the manga states that people can not activate Jutsu/abilities within Tsukuyomil.



Tsukuyomi works at a mental level according to the Databook. 

*Spoiler*: __ 




NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. *But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!*

*Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant *and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.

Captions

-An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one's heart and soul!!

-The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.

Picture comments

-The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they've never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world's principles themselves obey the caster's beck and call.

*-Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.*

-Only those of Uchiha blood... Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?

*-The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.*


----------



## Jeefus (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't think Minato would have looked into his eyes so the point is nearly moot!


----------



## Sorin (Jul 31, 2011)

First of all nice theory on why hiriashin could be used to dispel genjutsu.I agree with you here.

Secondly, depending on how much time Tsukyomi takes in reality, one second or an instant like some say is what i want to know.If it's the first, Minato has one of the best reaction and reflexive feats in the manga.We, normal people, have reaction times of about 0.2 seconds.Now imagine a superhuman like Minato who is known especially for his speed and reaction time.But if it's instant then i don't see Minato breaking it because he doesn't have instant reaction time.

EDIT: i noticed people saying ftg needs a seal and posted this link to support their arguments.

What they omitted to say is that Minato had his hands tied close to his body by Madara's chains as seen here.So he couldn't have made a seal.Some fans are really desperate.


----------



## Saru (Jul 31, 2011)

Shadowstring98 said:


> i thought only a Uchiha can break Tsukuyomi, and itachi even said that didn't he?
> so i kind of think Minato would be screwed at that point



Thread should have stopped here.

The ONLY reason Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi in time is because he was Itachi's blood. The Sharingan saved his ass, not quick thinking.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 31, 2011)

Sorin said:


> First of all nice theory on why hiriashin could be used to dispel genjutsu.I agree with you here.
> 
> Secondly, depending on how much time Tsukyomi takes in reality, one second or an instant like some say is what i want to know.If it's the first, Minato has one of the best reaction and reflexive feats in the manga.We, normal people, have reaction times of about 0.2 seconds.Now imagine a superhuman like Minato who is known especially for his speed and reaction time.But if it's instant then i don't see Minato breaking it because he doesn't have instant reaction time.
> 
> ...



It could have been a one-handed seal. Minato is shown making a seal with his right hand when he lands. However, it's the most generic chakra focusing seal and is probably unnecessary.


----------



## Sorin (Jul 31, 2011)

Marsala said:


> It could have been a one-handed seal. Minato is shown making a seal with his right hand when he lands. However, it's the most generic chakra focusing seal and is probably unnecessary.



Yeah but that was after hiriashin was used.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2011)

Marsala said:


> It could have been a one-handed seal. Minato is shown making a seal with his right hand when he lands. However, it's the most generic chakra focusing seal and is probably unnecessary.



So how do you explain him Hirashining to his kunai to OHKO Madara?


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 31, 2011)

I think Minato would move so quickly that a genjutsu user wouldn't even be able to cast it on him. 

Personally, I would use the Uzumaki seal knowledge I got from my wife to protect my chakra.


----------



## ZE (Jul 31, 2011)

You can't be the G.O.A.T when you're lacking in one of the most important ninja areas... in this case, genjutsu.


----------



## lucky (Jul 31, 2011)

Unless the genjutsu binds him from using any jutsus.


----------



## Sorin (Jul 31, 2011)

Marsala already said that the seal is unnecessary but i'm baffled that some fans literally make their own story and hope that the posters eat their shit.Sometimes they'll even say that milk is black.


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 31, 2011)

I think we all know that Tsukuyomi works on a mental level, the question is whether a strong ninja could put up any kind of resistance. And if Tsukuyomi was so unbeatable, please tell me why the Uchiha were Senju puppies.  Something isnt right here.

Anyway Tsukuyomi is easily avoidable anyway, so its somewhat of a moot discussion.  I will say that Tsukuyomi is not instant, since it has to be cast.  Basically the casting of Tsukuyomi is dependent on Itachi's reflexes.  Last I checked its not automatically casted upon eye contact, but casted by the user upon eye contact.  Obviously its as quick as a thought, but still....there is a moment in a person *can* react before they're caught.

That being said, someone like an Itachi has phenomenal reflexes so it would essentially be who reacts the quickest.


----------



## Asriel (Jul 31, 2011)

Turrin said:


> This should even work against Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi is an incredibly fast technique that can make 1 second seem like 3 days, but FTG is even faster than that. So once Minato gets trapped in Tsukuyomi he can just activate FTG and teleport away breaking the Genjutsu. And we know that a shinobi can activate abilities in Tsukuyomi if he's quick enough since we've seen Sasuke activate his Genjutsu counter while in Tsukuyomi.



This is all sounds absolutely plausible except for your mention of the chapter where Sasuke activates 'an ability' or his 'genjutsu counter' in Tsukuyomi, which you provided the link for. I, personally, do not see anything that resembles a counter. Furthermore, it didn't make sense to me when you consider these pages:

we know that a shinobi can activate abilities in Tsukuyomi if he's quick enough since we've seen Sasuke activate his Genjutsu counter while in Tsukuyomi. 
_"No... He didn't get hit... He... He overcame it."_ I'm not sure that that implies that he countered it, or if he simply bested it.

we know that a shinobi can activate abilities in Tsukuyomi if he's quick enough since we've seen Sasuke activate his Genjutsu counter while in Tsukuyomi. 
_"An expert with a stone can still beat a novice with a shuriken. All he needs is more skill and more power..."_ This statement seems to imply that Sasuke's less advanced but more skillful and more powerful sharingan *beat* Itachi's more advanced but less skillful and less powerful Mangekyou technique.

Of course, we see the effects of Tsukuyomi reversing themselves onto Itachi as he grasps his eye, but I do not think we can be certain of whether it is due to backfire via Sasuke's overcoming of the technique, or if Sasuke used a genjutsu counter as you've claimed.

Anyways, this all leads me to my question: How would someone know whether they've activated an ability in the real or in the illusion if their senses are being controlled?

Otherwise your thesis, which is the ability to move out of range of a genjutsu technique, if possible, should be able to counter genjutsu.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jul 31, 2011)

That it possible.However Im not sure I like that idea.If its true then Minato is truely a one trict pony who uses the same tactic for everything.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Jul 31, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No he didn't.
> Lol... everything that happened, happened in Naruto's head.
> So I guess Gaara's eye appeared in naruto's hand for real .



If everything happens in one's mental realm..how the fuck could anyone break any genjutsu by themselves? 

And btw I knew it long before 



Marco said:


> Nah, I'm pretty sure Minato needs hand seals. We've seen him make them when using hiraishin.
> 
> EDIT: Why would Minato use seals at all if they weren't needed?


----------



## Bentham (Aug 1, 2011)

Lol the tsukuyomi failed logic...I love NF. Going by itachi fans logic, itachi can one-shot Shodai, Minato, RS, and anybody else with tsukuyomi....simply because we havnt seen an instance when those people showed their genjutsu defense.

such fail logic. With the same logic, minato can oneshot anybody with hiarishin. Kishi is not going to show high tiers like minato and itachi get one-shot by a technique like hiarishin or tsukuyomi.

itachi fans are going to be dissappointed when tsukuyomi is broken by someone. just like the extremely overhype amateratsu has proven to be fodder.

for fanboys, this is the simple truth about hyped abilities like tsukuyomi, amateratsu, hiarishin, or other "cant be stopped jutsus"

Kishi is not going to let a top tier shinobi get oneshoted by such a jutsu. like susano and amateratsu which everyone considered "unbeatable"...tsukuyomi will be overcome


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 1, 2011)

Bentham said:


> Lol the tsukuyomi failed logic...I love NF. Going by itachi fans logic, itachi can one-shot Shodai, Minato, RS, and anybody else with tsukuyomi....simply because we havnt seen an instance when those people showed their genjutsu defense.
> 
> such fail logic. With the same logic, minato can oneshot anybody with hiarishin. Kishi is not going to show high tiers like minato and itachi get one-shot by a technique like hiarishin or tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...



I vote for this


----------



## Final Jutsu (Aug 1, 2011)

Kirin said:


> Tsukuyomi works at a mental level according to the Databook.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...





The problem with this is that no where does  state it controls the enemies actions in the realm, or outside.  It specifically states it controls everything(the setting) in that realm.  It gives him control over space, gravity, time as the DB states.  In doing so Itachi makes his own setting to inflict as much mental damage as possible.  Even Kakashi had stated that to him it was unbreakable because it happened so fast(not insant).  Only shishui's genutsu(maybe madara too, might be same) has been stated to control the enemy, even to the point where the target wasn't aware they were in a genjutsu.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 1, 2011)

Fantastic thread as usual, Turrin.  +Reps

Say, you really *are *out to crush the Itachi fandom, aren't you?


----------



## Deshi Basara (Aug 1, 2011)

Another frigging awesome thread Turrin!!I can't believe i just got that about getting out of range to get out of genjutsu :WOW


----------



## Saru (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I don't see where it stated in the manga that people caught in Tskuyomi don't have control of their own mind. Both Kakashi and Sasuke seemed to have perfect control over their own mind within Tsukuyomi. Literally nothing in the manga states that people can not activate Jutsu/abilities within Tsukuyomil.



Both of which had the Sharingan, and one of which was an Uchiha--the *legitimate* counter to the technique as stated by Itachi himself.

That being said, Minato could perhaps counter slower or less overwhelming genjutusu than Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Shadow050 (Aug 1, 2011)

before i get on minato, i wanna say that sasuke didn't activate a genjutsu counter while in tsukuyomi. he didn't "genjutsu counter it"... he overcame it somehow, but not based on a genjutsu counter _after_ already being it. since the genjutsu and ALL its events take place in an instant, any "counter" to it is also "instant" ...inspite of the fact that everything taking place within it is outside of the actual space-time. 

anyway, Minato's greatest defense against genjutsu is his super natural synapses, that allow him to process information so quickly that he's "virtually" immune to genjutsu. it's exactly why raikage told sasuke that his sharingan/genjutsu was pretty much useless against him while looking directly into his eyes.

minato was ACTUALLY get caught in a genjutsu, but he'd realize he was in one and break it SOOO fast, that the enemy wouldn't even get a chance to realize that they "caught" him in it lol.

this is the "virtual immunity" i spoke of.


----------



## sasutachi (Aug 1, 2011)

tsukuyomi cannot be countered unless you're an uchiha,speed and strenght arent  factors.databook already stated this
"Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful."


----------



## Angoobo (Aug 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Of course Minato can break Tsukuyomi.
> 
> It's not like Tsukuyomi is instantly delivered to the brain, so teleporting elsewhere won't stop the delivery of the genjutsu. Other than that, we've known teleportation is better than kais for torture and binding illusions.



Tsukyomi is not instant, it's said to take effect in less than one second( which is not instant)...
on the other hand, hiraishin is instant

and genjutsu shouldn't be an issue fr minato, you know, superfast synapses and everything...


----------



## Saru (Aug 1, 2011)

Here we go with the synapses argument.


----------



## Eth (Aug 1, 2011)

As an Itachi and Minato fan, very interesting.

I just want to make 1 comment that will be argued irrelevant.

To the whole 72hr=1sec crowd, etc...

Consider that FTG can also make 72hr=1sec in the sense that a trip that takes 72hrs to travel can be done instantaneously by Minato if he has a seal there.

Take that for what it's worth, don't read into it, don't ask so and don't argue relevance because you read into my comment further than I meant.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Sigh... I never said the illusion parts like Gaara's eye were happening for real I said that people can move and use Techniques while under genjutsu, which we have been shown is the case time and time again.



It differs from genjutsu to genjutsu.

For example, the one used on Deidara or Kirabi or Sarutobi enter this category. 

The one used on Naruto however took place in Naruto's mind unless you believe Naruto was running around spamming rasengans. When the genjutsu was over, Naruto was still in his place staring blank. 

Also how could this be applied to Tsukiyomi ? Which part of 72 hours would correspond to real time action ?

What you are trying to say here makes no sense or whatsoever.


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Aug 1, 2011)

So, basically, running away? Hell, Chiyo could have told you guys that


----------



## NamiKazeKage (Aug 1, 2011)

His greatest counter to genjutsu is just not getting caught in one in the first place... " Looks like hes about to use genjutsu" *teleports away and then back a few mins later*


----------



## mareboro (Aug 1, 2011)

its ok to dodge a jutsu but dodging a genjustsu is not nice by some standards i guess. 
Im not sure about tsukuyomi, but then again its all about prep and how you use your skills. Question is: IS tsukyomi faster than madaras space time jutsu? cos we have seen Minato outdo Madara speed wise. And if Itachi could cast tsukuyomi on madara faster than madara could react then why didnt he ?


----------



## Vergil642 (Aug 1, 2011)

This would indeed work, but only against weaker Genjutsu such as Tayuya's.

You can roughly split Genjutsu into two unofficial types, those that completely trap your senses and those that do not. For example, Kurenai's Magen: Jubaku Satsu makes you believe a tree has grown around you and trapped you. You still however perceive the real world and most importantly can move in it. Similarly Itachi's Genjutsu that was used against Deidara allowed Deidara to move in the real world, nearly resulting in Deidara's death.

It is these Genjutsu that such a counter would be effective on. But that's kind of pointless as biting your lip would free you from such Genjutsu just as easily and costs far less chakra.

When using it against Genjutsu that manipulates every sense and effectively paralyses you in the real world like Sharingan Hypnosis things are a little different. In this case, Minato would not be able to use Hiraishin no Jutsu just as he wouldn't be able to use Rasengan, or bite his own lip. Being effectively trapped in your own mind means that you can't do anything but try and disrupt your own chakra flow (or have a partner do it for you) as until you do you have no ability to control your own movements as your ability to control your senses is removed from you.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 1, 2011)

This can make sense, although we are handicapping Minato here anyways.

Coz there is no way he would be caught in genjutsu.  If he did he could dispel it like Jiraiya taught Naruto.

He is that good and intelligent.

His kill combo > genjutsu of any sort.

End of Story.


----------



## sinjin long (Aug 1, 2011)

Vergil642 said:


> This would indeed work, but only against weaker Genjutsu such as Tayuya's.
> 
> You can roughly split Genjutsu into two unofficial types, those that completely trap your senses and those that do not. For example, Kurenai's Magen: Jubaku Satsu makes you believe a tree has grown around you and trapped you. You still however perceive the real world and most importantly can move in it. Similarly Itachi's Genjutsu that was used against Deidara allowed Deidara to move in the real world, nearly resulting in Deidara's death.
> 
> ...



its an unknown,minato has the utmost chakra control perhaps the best in the manga(rasengan),intelligence up there with shikamaru(sealing master,seal creator,figuring out madara's jutsu's weakness in one clash)and probably the in the top three if not the best reflex and physical speed.has knowledge of the past(madara/shodai @VOTE)and knowledge of the uchiha and their abilites(to an extent)being a master to one and the hokage of their village.

all of which are the exact things needed to combat genjutsu and uchiha.

it really comes down to knowledge that we do not have. could minato have a genjutsu counter even to tsukuyomi? its highly possible. is he fast enough to counter it? probably. but its also just as likely concerning tsukuyomi that it could work against minato as well.

we just don't know,all we have are theories and hopes,and guesses. logically both sides have valid points and it comes down to how you feel about the characters and their abilities,but with the few peices of manga evidence we have it could go either way.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 1, 2011)

Vergil642 said:


> This would indeed work, but only against weaker Genjutsu such as Tayuya's.
> 
> You can roughly split Genjutsu into two unofficial types, those that completely trap your senses and those that do not. For example, Kurenai's Magen: Jubaku Satsu makes you believe a tree has grown around you and trapped you. You still however perceive the real world and most importantly can move in it. Similarly Itachi's Genjutsu that was used against Deidara allowed Deidara to move in the real world, nearly resulting in Deidara's death.
> 
> ...


I seriously wonder how people have come to this conclusion that there are two types of Genjutsu and one you can't perform techniques under. This seems like a concept that was totally made up by this forum and goes totally against what we have seen so far in the manga so.

Tayuya's Mateki: Mugen Onsa technique drags the person into a complete illusionary realm and yet Shikkamaru could still use techniques. 

When Kakashi casted Genjutsu on Zabuza with Three Tome Sharingan he could still move and use techniques

When Kakashi casted Genjutsu on Sakura at the bell test she could still move

When the Oboro Brothers caught Team 7 and Kabuto in Genjutsu they could still move. 

Orochimaru could still move while under Itachi's Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu

Deidara was still able to move and use techniques while under Itachi's Reality Warp Three Tome Genjutsu

Deidara was able to move and use techniques while under Sasuke's Reality Warp Three Tome Genjutsu

Sasuke was able to move and use techniques while under Itachi's Three Tome Karasu Bushin Genjutsu


Sasuke was able to activate his three tome Sharingan Genjutsu counter while during Tsukuyomi

Danzo was able to move while under Sasuke's reality warp MS genjutsu, both times

Mifune was able to move while under Shishui's Genjutsu just fine

B was able to move and use techniques during Itachi's Karasu Bushin Three Tome Genjutsu

So right there I have literally gone through every type of Sharingan and many none Sharingan Genjutsu in the manga and showed that you can move when they are cast on you or use techniques.

You could always move when put under the reality warp Genjutsu thats why there is a completely different type of Genjutsu, binding Genjutsu, which center around preventing the person from moving, but even in the case of binding Genjutsu techniques can still be used if you don't need to move to activate them, like we saw with Shikkamaru vs Tayuya.

I don't see an example of a Genjutsu where its stated you can't move or use techniques of any kind, except for maybe frog song.


----------



## Stermor (Aug 1, 2011)

it's quite simple.. 

if the genjutsu doesn't paralyze your mind(like frog song, or kanashibari) minato can always use his ftg to break the connection to genjutu by massive range.. 

this also means that if tsukiyomi has a similar abilty of freezing the person in rl he should not be able to escape it by teleporting.. the problem is we know it is possible to hold a conversation in tsukiyomi.. this shows some manner of thought is still possible. which means there is a good chance there is no paralyzing of the mind.. and minato can escape even from tsukiyomi..

tsukiyomi lasting a second doesn't matter since for both people in the genjutsu it looks like it lasts more(his perception of time is also altered).. and that gives minato all the time in the world to teleport should he be able/want to..


----------



## Summers (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I seriously wonder how people have come to this conclusion that there are two types of Genjutsu and one you can't perform techniques under. This seems like a concept that was totally made up by this forum and goes totally against what we have seen so far in the manga so.
> 
> Tayuya's Mateki: Mugen Onsa technique drags the person into a complete illusionary realm and yet Shikkamaru could still use techniques.
> 
> ...



Cant wait to see the counter folks come up with. Good job. Oh you didn't post the Genjutsu the Rain team cast on Naruto and Co during the chuunin exams.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 1, 2011)

summers said:


> Cant wait to see the counter folks come up with. Good job. Oh you didn't post the Genjutsu the Rain team cast on Naruto and Co during the chuunin exams.



Oh they will.

Like: Minato has shown no genjutsu defense.
    or The eye is faster than the reflex.
    or Itachi is a genius and no one has shown to escape his tsukiyomi.
    or something else ridiculous.

LOL.


----------



## Asriel (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I seriously wonder how people have come to this conclusion that there are two types of Genjutsu and one you can't perform techniques under. This seems like a concept that was totally made up by this forum and goes totally against what we have seen so far in the manga so.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



All decent examples of when someone has done something, whether movement or a technique, inside of a genjutsu. However, I feel the need to make a point in how genjutsu effects a person; such as sight, sound, taste, touch, smell, and comprehension (Shisui's). For example, Tayuya's technique effected Shikamaru's hearing, because it was an audible technique. It proceeded to cast a visual illusion on him. It is unknown how Shisui's technique enters a person, but it controls their ability to comprehend and sway their thoughts to your liking. Most genjutsu effect the visual sense, since illusions manifest visually. Many of the sharingan techniques are visually cast and effected, as well.

My point of contention, however, is that Tsukuyomi effects your ability to feel pain. This means that it has to effect your sense of touch, which is controlled by your nervous system. Kakashi, when he fought Itachi back in part 1, experienced illusory pain when he was trapped in Tsukuyomi, which manifested as real pain afterwards. He was also pinned on a cross against his will. Since that kind of exerted control over another's situation is possible, I need only ask how Hiraishin can activate when confronted with such an obstacle?

I'm all for Hiraishin dispelling genjutsu, since it makes sense that if someone should move outside of a genjutsu's range, even Tsukuyomi's, that it would be dispelled. My only dispute is that with the way Tsukuyomi effects a person's senses, namely the ability to feel (in some regard), how would someone be able to react?


----------



## Turrin (Aug 1, 2011)

Eɾugo said:


> All decent examples of when someone has done something, whether movement or a technique, inside of a genjutsu. However, I feel the need to make a point in how genjutsu effects a person; such as sight, sound, taste, touch, smell, and comprehension (Shisui's). For example, Tayuya's technique effected Shikamaru's hearing, because it was an audible technique. It proceeded to cast a visual illusion on him. It is unknown how Shisui's technique enters a person, but it controls their ability to comprehend and sway their thoughts to your liking. Most genjutsu effect the visual sense, since illusions manifest visually. Many of the sharingan techniques are visually cast and effected, as well.
> 
> My point of contention, however, is that Tsukuyomi effects your ability to feel pain. This means that it has to effect your sense of touch, which is controlled by your nervous system. Kakashi, when he fought Itachi back in part 1, experienced illusory pain when he was trapped in Tsukuyomi, which manifested as real pain afterwards. He was also pinned on a cross against his will. Since that kind of exerted control over another's situation is possible, I need only ask how Hiraishin can activate when confronted with such an obstacle?
> 
> I'm all for Hiraishin dispelling genjutsu, since it makes sense that if someone should move outside of a genjutsu's range, even Tsukuyomi's, that it would be dispelled. My only dispute is that with the way Tsukuyomi effects a person's senses, namely the ability to feel (in some regard), how would someone be able to react?


Tayuya's Genjutsu is actually identical to Tsukuyomi except its not nearly as fast of a technique. Tayuya's Mateki: Mugen Onsa made Shikkamaru believe he was in an strange illusionary realm, just like Tsukuyomi did to Kakashi. And in-fact like Tsukuyomi, Tayuya's Genjutsu binds the target in a similar way to how Itachi was able to bind Kakashi's movements with his cross. Furthermore Tayuya's Genjutsu also had the ability to make the person caught under its spell feel Pain and cause them mental damage, just like Tsukuyomi.

In-fact DB II explains the way both Jutsu works in this manner to cause mental damage in much the same way:

Tayuya's Genjutsu,_ "At the same time, they are fed morbid hallucinations, which makes it also possible to run them down mentally"
_
Tsukuyomi, _"Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!!"_

Shikkamaru was able to break free though by using a Jutsu which did not require him to move to activate, I.E. Kage Mane no Jutsu. 

So the way I look at it is Tayuya's Genjutsu is essentially Tsukuyomi-light and to break it you essentially need a jutsu that you don't need to move to activate and can be used to free yourself before the Jutsu causes enough mental damage to KO or Kill you.

So in the case of Tsukuyomi you also need such a jutsu except since Tsukuyomi is far faster than Tayuya's Genjutsu, you essentially need a Jutsu you can activate w/o moving and can be used to free you, but is also insanely fast. Minato has such a Jutsu in the form of Hiraishin no Jutsu and thus should be able to escape the effects of Tsukuyomi by teleporting far enough away out of the casters range.

At least that is the way that I look at it.


----------



## Frawstbite (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Shikkamaru was able to break free though by using a Jutsu which did not require him to move to activate, I.E. Kage Mane no Jutsu.



I agree with the comparison between Tsukuyomi and Tayuya's tech, but:

To be fair, if you go back page 13 it's very likely that he used that very same jutsu and merely ran it back through his own body. There is no need to make the hand seal again, seeing as how whenever that jutsu is broken the shadow gets smaller and goes back to Shikamaru. 

OR:

_It's very likely_ that he can just funnel that jutsu through his own body. You need a seal to shape and stretch it among the ground. All that was necessary when he punched Hidan was _shadow contact_. Of course, he is always making shadow contact with his _own shadow._

This is exclusive to him. You certainly couldn't do a seal-less katon in that situation. That doesn't really say anything here. The issue is whether or not you definitely need a handseal for FTG. If you in fact need one, then you can't compare it with the Kage Mane, as all you need is shadow contact. And again, it makes sense that he could use it on himself, because it's his own shadow, after all. I'd say making it stretch and chase requires the concentration of the seal...


----------



## Final Jutsu (Aug 1, 2011)

Hiraishin doesn't use handseals.  He's never been shown making handseals prior to using it.  He was gathering chakra when he escaped Madara's chains.  Like we've seen many shinobi do in the past(sasuke,itachi,kakashi,etc).  All other uses of Hiraishin debunk that theory.


----------



## navy (Aug 1, 2011)

Does this mean Minato used handseals while Raikage was a split second from his face?


----------



## Frawstbite (Aug 1, 2011)

navy said:


> Does this mean Minato used handseals while Raikage was a split second from his face?



'Tis what some people are trying to say.
He must have the fastest seals in the Narutoverse,


----------



## principito (Aug 1, 2011)

Kakashi was in Tsukiyomi for like 1 second which seemed to last a lot more to him and he got fucked up pretty bad.

i think if Minato gets caught in it, things are not that easy.

The genjutsu ALTERS the persons reality. I think if Minato is INSIDE the genjutsu and tries to teleport somewhere... he wont be able to or he will teleport somewhere INSIDE the genjutsu.

His physical or REAL body wont be moving as he will be moving only in his head. Even if he realizes he is in a genjutsu he CANT move his real body cuz to do it he would have to be free from it.


----------



## Addy (Aug 1, 2011)

i get what you mean but if kakashi couldn't break out of tsukyumi what makes minato able to even move in that realm? he losses control in that realm let alone perform a teleportation jutsu. even for sauske, it took him three years to figure a way out with his sharingan required.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 1, 2011)

I can't believe Turrin believes Naruto was running around using Rasengan and screaming, crying, and throwing kunai while in finger genjutsu before his partners could break him out. As opposed to the obvious: it was in his head.

But of course, he'll argue that all genjutsu is the same, just like all ninjutsu, despite overwhelming evidence, as long as it gets Minato the slightest edge over Itachi. And of course Minato fans will agree with him. Tsukuyomi = kai out.



I mean, it takes about two seconds of reasoning to realize that it wouldn't work on Tsukuyomi, because Tsukuyomi is over instantly, and thus before any real-time chakra can be converted from stamina. The same reason kais fail.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I seriously wonder how people have come to this conclusion that there are two types of Genjutsu and one you can't perform techniques under. This seems like a concept that was totally made up by this forum and goes totally against what we have seen so far in the manga so.
> 
> Tayuya's Mateki: Mugen Onsa technique drags the person into a complete illusionary realm and yet Shikkamaru could still use techniques.
> 
> ...



You need to dispell Tsukiyomi first to take control of your actions. 

Same goes for finger genjutsu.

As for Deidara's situation, Deidara thought he was controlling the centipede bomb and thought he moved it under ground but he wasn't doing any of the things he thought he was doing. 
Same could happen to minato. He may think that he is teleporting somewhere safe but he might end up @ the tip of ITachi's kunai. 
That is why people first try to dispell the technique rather than just ignore it.


----------



## Addy (Aug 1, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You need to dispell Tsukiyomi first to take control of your actions.
> 
> Same goes for finger genjutsu.



yup. bee thought he was able to catch itachi but it was a genjutsu. minato can think that he teleported but it would be a genjutsu. he needs to first disable it to  then do something. otherwise, it is just a dream.

and in tsukyumi you can't move to disable it like the other genjutsus. we have seen sasuke over come it but he has a sharingan, and three years to prepare for it after experiencing it first hand while minato has none of that.

oro moved because he knew he was in  a genjutsu (unless he actually thought that itachi can summon big ass nails and stab from no where without any summoning seals or anything ). kurenai knew she was in a genjutsu. that's why she bit herself. diedara was lead to beleive just like bee that he is actually capturing itachi when it was all n his head. and that is just normal sharingan genjutsu  without even mentioning tsukyumi were you can't move even if you know of it as kakashi unless you have a sharingan to disable it. we haven't seen kakashi move a muscle in his tsukyumi.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> I can't believe Turrin believes Naruto was running around using Rasengan and screaming, crying, and throwing kunai while in finger genjutsu before his partners could break him out. As opposed to the obvious: it was in his head.
> 
> But of course, he'll argue that all genjutsu is the same, just like all ninjutsu, despite overwhelming evidence, as long as it gets Minato the slightest edge over Itachi. And of course Minato fans will agree with him. Tsukuyomi = kai out.
> 
> ...



This.......  

......thread can be closed. 

As always, Turrin just doesn't get it. You need to understand how genjutsu works before you can comment on it. Hirashin = S/T Ninjutsu, therefore by your logic, Madara and Summons(Once they get reverse summoned) cannot be genjutsu'ed.  

Even though we know Madara thinks Itachi can beat him if Itachi found out his secret.


----------



## Addy (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:


> *So the way I look at it is Tayuya's Genjutsu is essentially Tsukuyomi-light* and to break it you essentially need a jutsu that you don't need to move to activate and can be used to free yourself before the Jutsu causes enough mental damage to KO or Kill you.



did you just compare tayua's genjutsu to tsukyumi? let alone itachi's tsukyumi? 

you are seriously (no offense) downplaying tsykyumi here as the greatest genjutsu (izanagi is a genjutsu afflicted on the user. not the opponent it is also creation (making something real) thus making it not an illusion at all).

what you say makes sense but i naruto who knew he was in a genjutsu but couldn't do anything even if he tried. kakashi who was in tsukyumi but didn't do anything even if he knew he was in a genjutsu. sasuke, who was only able to over come it/break it because he had the sharingan and he already experienced it. diedara, who was gonna kill himself  and actually wrapped himself, not itachi. all of them were under itachi's genjutsu, not tayuya's. we also see that there are diferent kinds of genjutsu as naruto's genjutsu he can't move while in other genjutsus, he can.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> I can't believe Turrin believes Naruto was running around using Rasengan and screaming, crying, and throwing kunai while in finger genjutsu before his partners could break him out. As opposed to the obvious: it was in his head.
> 
> But of course, he'll argue that all genjutsu is the same, just like all ninjutsu, despite overwhelming evidence, as long as it gets Minato the slightest edge over Itachi. And of course Minato fans will agree with him. Tsukuyomi = kai out.
> 
> ...



To add to the obvious Strategos already provided above:

Zetsu even mentions that Itachi and Sasuke hadn't moved when we, the audience, saw taijutsu and ninjutsu alike. The point is, it all happened in their heads. Those ninjutsu actually weren't activated. Hence Hiraishin would not actually be activated either. The same happened with Naruto, when he woke up he had his arms beside him rather than in the choking-himself position. It again happened when Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, he never went CS2 in reality. Only in the genjutsu.

Sure, there are other types of genjutsu as well, where the victim can still use his/her jutsu, and only their perception is altered. Bringer of Darkness for example.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 1, 2011)

except getting caught, you can't use genjutsu


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> I can't believe Turrin believes Naruto was running around using Rasengan and screaming, crying, and throwing kunai while in finger genjutsu before his partners could break him out. As opposed to the obvious: it was in his head.
> 
> But of course, he'll argue that all genjutsu is the same, just like all ninjutsu, despite overwhelming evidence, as long as it gets Minato the slightest edge over Itachi. And of course Minato fans will agree with him. Tsukuyomi = kai out.
> 
> ...



Okay here we go.  Two things:

1) This isn't an Itachi vs Minato thread.  

If it was it wouldn't last very long.  Minato was a far greater ninja than Itachi quite obviously.  Manga's made it pretty clear he's the strongest ninja ever produced out of Konoha.  Now if you're not gonna believe that about Minato (ie fan bias) then you definitely can't turn around and say that Tsukuyomi is unbreakable because manga says so.  You either believe the manga or dont believe the manga.  Use canon or don't use canon.  You can't choose only when its convenient.


2) This thread is purely theorizing for fun.

Obviously Minato would never get caught in a sharingan genjutsu, because he wouldnt make eye contact, and wouldnt need to.  And since no mention of genjutsu, his weakness to it, or any panel of Minato caught in genjutsu exists...its safe to say it wasn't a problem.  This is more of a Minato handicap, and us wondering whether or not he has a genjutsu defense outside of just not being caught in one.  We all concluded Hiraishin would automatically break a genjutsu because of the fact that it a space/time ninjutsu.


All in all, I don't see the problem with anything Turrin is saying.  Just agree to disagree about Tsukuyomi and move on.  Its not like he'd ever be caught in it anyway, so I dont see why you're making the accusations that you're making.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> I can't believe Turrin believes Naruto was running around using Rasengan and screaming, crying, and throwing kunai while in finger genjutsu before his partners could break him out. As opposed to the obvious: it was in his head.
> 
> But of course, he'll argue that all genjutsu is the same, just like all ninjutsu, despite overwhelming evidence, as long as it gets Minato the slightest edge over Itachi. And of course Minato fans will agree with him. Tsukuyomi = kai out.
> 
> ...



So let me get this straight I provide tons of examples of people activating techniques and moving during essentially every type of Genjutsu in existence, including Tsukuyomi and your counter argument is that because you don't think Naruto moved during finger Genjutsu that all this evidence is for naught. Basically your argument is my lack of evidence  > 12 different factual examples from the manga 

And I'm even willing to accept that Naruto couldn't move during Finger Genjutsu or whatever, but he clearly activated a Ninjutsu Technique: Kai given Itachi's statement about Naruto improving and the fact that Naruto defied the sleep command with his activation of Kai and Itachi had to strengthen his illusion. So even if we say Finger Genjutsu binds the movements of the person and just makes them think they are moving, they can still activate Ninjutsu that doesn't take motion, which means FTG can be activate just like Kai during this scenario. That is even if we accept your argument which is totally based on your interpretation of events and no real evidence.

And no I'm not arguing they are all the same, I am arguing that I have gone through nearly every Genjutsu technique in the entire manga and showed you can ether move and/or activate Ninjutsu techniques while under the spell of that Genjutsu, if your fast enough and that you and your cohorts have presented absolutely no evidence to support your argument that people can not move and/or use techniques of any kind while under several types of Genjutsu.

And don't start with me about your stupid none sense about me being a Minato-fan, because i'm not I'm not a fan of any of the flawless GoaT/super man type characters in this manga or any other work of fiction. You on the other hand are one of thee biggest Itachi-fans on this board. So if someone's biased, i'm sure that most people know who that is. Furthermore this is not a Minato vs Itachi thread no matter how much you wish to derail it into one, in-order to avoid the fact that I have presented a very logical way for Minato to counter Genjutsu.

Oh and on the issue of Tsukuyomi I proved several pages back it is not instant or are you one of those people who makes the choice to value a vastly inferior translation over a vastly superior one simply to suit your argument for an obvious hyperbola to be true? Actually on second thought I don't even know why I asked that question, its seems self explanatory.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:
			
		

> And I'm even willing to accept that Naruto couldn't move during Finger Genjutsu or whatever, but he clearly activated a Ninjutsu Technique: Kai



The Kai being the technique of stopping your chakra flow and then resurging it to regain control of your own chakra. That's totally comparable to using a technique of S-rank difficulty with someone else controlling your chakra.

Seriously, Turrin, think about why that doesn't make sense.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> The Kai being the technique of stopping your chakra flow and then resurging it to regain control of your own chakra. That's totally comparable to using a technique of S-rank difficulty with someone else controlling your chakra.
> 
> Seriously, Turrin, think about why that doesn't make sense.


No you think about how it doesn't make sense that your arguing a Ninja can't use Ninjutsu while under finger Genjutsu when a Ninja did in-fact use a Ninjutsu technique under finger Genjutsu.

Furthermore all Genjutsu controls the person's chakra in their cranial nerve, not their whole body and Jiriaya already explained this in the very same chapters of the finger Genjutsu. This is why a person can still use Techniques despite being under Genjutsu [something we have seen time and time again in the manga] since its a very small portion of their chakra being controlled.


----------



## Crow Master Apprentice (Aug 1, 2011)

AMtrack

there is no proof whatsoever, Minato would avoid making eye contact with Itachi, that's just an assumption to give him the edge.


----------



## Addy (Aug 1, 2011)

Turrin said:


> *No you think about how it doesn't make sense that your arguing a Ninja can't use Ninjutsu while under finger Genjutsu when a Ninja did in-fact use a Ninjutsu technique under finger Genjutsu.*



we saw oro being able to shoot snakes out of his mouth against 4TK naruto.  he can use them without hand seals. why didn't he just do that against itachi? why attempt to use kai instead? he could move his mouth since he was able to talk and  doubt itachi would cut out his face if he did try.


> Furthermore all Genjutsu controls the person's chakra in their cranial nerve, not their whole body and Jiriaya already explained this in the very same chapters of the finger Genjutsu. This is why a person can still use Techniques despite being under Genjutsu [something we have seen time and time again in the manga] since its a very small portion of their chakra being controlled.



but there are different types of genjutsu. the one used on oro is called a binding genjutsu but in others, a person can move but it is used to allude the opponent as with bee, deidara, and many moving under it but attacking mid air as there is no one there to attack in the first place.

+ this is all an assumption based on another assumption since "using a jutsu under genjutsu" has worked sometimes like with diedara and sometimes didn't like with oro and naruto. in order for this to be the case we have to disregard both naruto and oro who's only hope for gaining control and getting out of itachi's genjutsu was to use kai even if oro does have jutsu that does not require movement from him aside from his mouth which he does move.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 1, 2011)

Addy said:


> we saw oro being able to shoot snakes out of his mouth against 4TK naruto.  he can use them without hand seals. why didn't he just do that against itachi? why attempt to use kai instead? he could move his mouth since he was able to talk and  doubt itachi would cut out his face if he did try.



Lol, lets see which takes less effort. Putting up a handseal, or dropping on the ground and vomiting snakes? we have seen how Kurenai could move outside of genjutsu as well.


----------



## Addy (Aug 1, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Lol, lets see which takes less effort. Putting up a handseal, or dropping on the ground and vomiting snakes? we have seen how Kurenai could move outside of genjutsu as well.



that was a bad example but he can still use snakes without hand seals. we even see sasuke do that to  bind juugo and saigetsu with snakes. and yet he doesn't do any of that in the genjutsu and if i remember right, he even used a snake with a sword out of his mouth to stab tsunade with. the guy can use jutsu without actual movement of any kind but doesn't.

and again, this is under the assumption that every genjutsu is the same (aside from tsukyumi) which it isn't the case as in some the opponent can move a bit while in others, they can't and in others, (like diedara) they use the jutsu on themselves. what happened with diedara suggests that there is some kind of control over a jutsu used were it hit diedara and not itachi at all. this isn't even going into the "mind control" genjutsu as with the fourth mizukage or sasuke with that kumo nin or itachi with that hooker were there is no control at all.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Minato fans.



It was stated in the manga that he was the greatest ever produced out of Konoha.  Itachi was produced out of Konoha.  Do I really need to spell that out for you?  When it comes to Minato hype ppl loooove ignoring all the manga statements, or downplaying them.  But once its about Itachi or Tsukuyomi, you're willing to take every word as gospel.  

Bottom line:  Its canon, Deal with it.




Crow Master Apprentice said:


> AMtrack
> 
> there is no proof whatsoever, Minato would avoid making eye contact with Itachi, that's just an assumption to give him the edge.



Minato was the Hokage of his village, presided over every clan in Konoha, and had a very high intelligence.  Common sense says he would know.  Gai isn't a genius but even he avoided eye contact with Itachi.  Naruto also warned Bee of the same.

Dismissing that possibility is just flat-out ridiculous.  If idiots like Naruto and Gai could manage, I'm pretty sure the dubbed "greatest" could manage.  And if you dont like the adjectives, blame Kishi.  Now when you actually wanna debate canon we can have this conversation again.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 1, 2011)

Crow Master Apprentice said:


> AMtrack
> 
> there is no proof whatsoever, Minato would avoid making eye contact with Itachi, that's just an assumption to give him the edge.



And putting Minato in a genjutsu, while being the fastest character, isn't an assumption to give Itachi the edge?


----------



## Addy (Aug 1, 2011)

JPongo said:


> And putting Minato in a genjutsu, while being the fastest character, isn't an assumption to give Itachi the edge?



that's the subject of the thread my friend * if *he was caught in a genjutsu

and let's not forget that minato does talk to his opponents, and look at them unless it is a surprise attack from the start. in the later case, bee did have his weapon at minato's croach.



AMtrack said:


> It was stated in the manga that he was the greatest ever produced out of Konoha.  Itachi was produced out of Konoha.  Do I really need to spell that out for you?  When it comes to Minato hype ppl loooove ignoring all the manga statements, or downplaying them.  But once its about Itachi or Tsukuyomi, you're willing to take every word as gospel.
> 
> Bottom line:  Its canon, Deal with it.


best argument ever!!!!!!!!!!!! 
let's see "he saw through everything i did" "if naruto dies, kyuubi just reappears"
see what i did there?  

statements like he is the best ninja are hype at best.


> Minato was the Hokage of his village, presided over every clan in Konoha, and had a very high intelligence.  Common sense says he would know.  Gai isn't a genius but even he avoided eye contact with Itachi.  Naruto also warned Bee of the same.
> 
> Dismissing that possibility is just flat-out ridiculous.  If idiots like *Naruto *and Gai could manage, I'm pretty sure the dubbed "greatest" could manage.  And if you dont like the adjectives, blame Kishi.  Now when you actually wanna debate canon we can have this conversation again.


but he didn't  it took sakura to take him out. and the thread is about minato releasing himself from genjutsu if he is caught so guy finding a way around it is not relevant since he was not caught.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 1, 2011)

Addy said:


> that's the subject of the thread my friend * if *he was caught in a genjutsu



i know, but ur friend i was responding to doesn't seem to.

Helllllllller!!!


----------



## Crow Master Apprentice (Aug 1, 2011)

Ok, im going to wrap it up here, as this is not an Itachi vs Minato war, but I just want to say two points.

Minato being the greatest was 100% bias. We all know how Jiraiya felt about Minato, & as far as we know Jiraiya has no knowledge of Itachi. 

As for the Hokage point. Ok I see your point, but I can't remember 1 fight Minato went right into without making eye contact, it's an assumption. If I can get a scan of Minato doing such a thing, id happily eat my words.

Edit 

JPongo 

Itachi is known for hitting genjutsu right off the bat, highly doubt Minato can blitz Itachi before a genjutsu is cast, but there is no solid proof so im also assuming.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 1, 2011)

Crow Master Apprentice said:


> Ok, im going to wrap it up here, as this is not an Itachi vs Minato war, but I just want to say two points.
> 
> Minato being the greatest was 100% bias. We all know how Jiraiya felt about Minato, & as far as we know Jiraiya has no knowledge of Itachi.
> 
> As for the Hokage point. Ok I see your point, but I can't remember 1 fight Minato went right into without making eye contact, it's an assumption. If I can get a scan of Minato doing such a thing, id happily eat my words.



Jiraiya faced Itachi way back in part 1, yes he knew about Itachi.

Jiraiya wasn't the only one to sing Minato's praises (Kakashi, Raikage, etc)

Also, why avoid making eye contact if you don't have to.  You only use that strategy for Uchiha, and as I pointed out..both Naruto and Gai made that exception for Itachi with no problems.  


And imo an Itachi v Minato thread has no business being created, unless Minato is handicapped.


----------



## lathia (Aug 1, 2011)

Complete Ownage said:
			
		

> Cliff notes anyone? To lazy to read 12 pages lol...



^ My sentiments exactly. I have no idea how I missed this thread. I Briefly read the first page and let me see if I ascertained what Turrin tried to explain. 

Because genjutsu only takes control of some senses in someone's mind, the influenced user can still perform some ninja techniques?

Therefore, Minato, can use FTG while being placed on genjutsu and proceed to kick ass and force himself out of genjutsu? Since FTG > any speed? 

Me like


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Aug 1, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> It was stated in the manga that he was the greatest ever produced out of Konoha.  Itachi was produced out of Konoha.  Do I really need to spell that out for you?  When it comes to Minato hype ppl loooove ignoring all the manga statements, or downplaying them.  But once its about Itachi or Tsukuyomi, you're willing to take every word as gospel.
> 
> Bottom line:  Its canon, Deal with it.



It was stated in the manga that only a skilled Uchiha can defeat Itachi, and unfortunately, Minato isn't an Uchiha.

It was also stated that Amaterasu is unavoidable. When it comes to Itachi hype ppl loooove ignoring all the manga statements, or downplaying them. But once its about Minato, you're willing to take every word as gospel.

Bottom line: Its canon, Deal with it.
---------

Don't use that argument, because people can counter it as easily as I did. By hype Itachi is invincible, by hype Amaterasu is unavoidable and as hot as fire, which has been proved false already.

However, it _is_ required to have Uchiha blood and a very experienced Sharingan in order to possibly escape Tsukuyomi, and Minato has neither.

Anyways, Jiraiya was simply biased as Minato was as much biased towards Jiraiya.


----------



## Crow Master Apprentice (Aug 1, 2011)

I think L. Messi [✔] post showed, hype = shit. 

As for this whole FTG out of genjutsu, I don't believe it. Kishi, databooks nor manga has stated it's possible to run out a genjutsu range to break it.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 1, 2011)

L. Messi [✔];39673062 said:
			
		

> Don't use that argument, because people can counter it as easily as I did. By hype Itachi is invincible, by hype Amaterasu is unavoidable and as hot as fire, which has been proved false already.
> 
> However, it _is_ required to have Uchiha blood and a very experienced Sharingan in order to possibly escape Tsukuyomi, and Minato has neither.
> 
> Anyways, Jiraiya was simply biased as Minato was as much biased towards Jiraiya.



You didnt counter anything, you just used manga facts.  I really have no idea what you *thought* my argument was.  My whole argument was manga says Minato is whatever, so he is.  Manga says Tsukuyomi can do whatever, so it can.  These are true until proven otherwise.

And again, Jiraiya wasn't the only kat to sing Minato's praises.  Even someone as prideful as the Raikage contributed some Minato hype.

The only one who seems to be discounting manga facts is you.  Facts about Itachi are okay, facts about Minato are not.  I have no problem recognizing facts about Itachi.  You have a problem recognizing facts about Minato.  Far as I'm concerned argument still stands.  

By hype alone, Minato far outclasses Itachi.  Itachi was handled by a pre-MS Sasuke...now unless you wanna tell me a pre-MS Sasuke is on par with Minato I don't think there's much of an argument here.

EDIT:  And if you really wanna bring in bias/hyperbole as an argument, I can just as easily call hyperbole on both Tsukuyomi and on Itachi.  Point is accept it all or question it all, no picking and choosing based on preferences.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 1, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> Obviously Minato would never get caught in a sharingan genjutsu, because he wouldnt make eye contact, and wouldnt need to.



O rly?


----------



## dungsi27 (Aug 1, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> O rly?



Actually in your scan it wasnt sure where exactly Minato was looking at the time.

He could have been looking at some point on Madaras mask,but not the eye.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 1, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Actually in your scan it wasnt sure where exactly Minato was looking at the time.



You can't be serious.

He was looking directly into the eyehole of Madara's mask. Use Paint, or some other similar program, and draw a straight line originating from Minato's pupil, and you'll find that it ends up right where Madara's eye should be.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Aug 1, 2011)

Vergil642 said:


> When using it against Genjutsu that manipulates every sense and effectively paralyses you in the real world like Sharingan Hypnosis things are a little different. In this case, Minato would not be able to use Hiraishin no Jutsu just as he wouldn't be able to use Rasengan, or bite his own lip. *Being effectively trapped in your own mind means that you can't do anything but try and disrupt your own chakra flow* (or have a partner do it for you) as until you do you have no ability to control your own movements as your ability to control your senses is removed from you.



*My thoughts on Hirashin :*

Minato is able to precisely choose which Kunai to teleport to . I don't think its possible without the awareness of the surroundings . 

I view the tags as an extension of Minato himself (I am having trouble with the wording )  or in other words they have a telepathic connection . 


Now as you pointed out the ones caught in genjutsu have to disrupt their own chakra flow in order to break out of the genjutsu . In Minato's case I think he can directly trigger the tag (Reverse summon himself) and escape it . Hope I am clear.


----------



## dungsi27 (Aug 1, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> You can't be serious.
> 
> He was looking directly into the eyehole of Madara's mask. Use Paint, or some other similar program, and draw a straight line originating from Minato's pupil, and you'll find that it ends up right where Madara's eye should be.



Thats when youre looking at a flat 2-dimension picture.You have to take into account also the depth of a 3-dimension world.

Its pretty damn hard to see Madaras eye under that mask.Minato never noticed that Tobi had the sharingan.

Remember when Minato listed the reasons he suspected Tobi to be Madara?The fact that Tobi has the sharingan wasnt included.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 1, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Thats when youre looking at a flat 2-dimension picture.You have to take into account also the depth of a 3-dimension world.



What difference does it make? It's still entirely possible to trace Minato's line of sight. Even if you don't utilize the method I've suggested, you have to ask yourself, where else would he be looking? Two combatants usually look at each other's faces (or the next best thing) when they fight.



dungsi27 said:


> Its pretty damn hard to see Madaras eye under that mask.Minato never noticed that Tobi had the sharingan.



Because maybe he didn't have enough time to look?


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 1, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Minato is probably stronger than Itachi, but not by the margin AMtrack supposes there is. They are within the same tier, and very close in terms of power. I just don't see why he would bother saying Itachi fans are horrible, then go on to make a statement that's equally ridiculous.



In my defense I never indicated my views on the margin between them.  I will say this, I definitely think Minato is stronger...and I definitely think he'd handle Itachi in a similar manner as when he handled Madara.  If that was Itachi he would have been dead, but Madara's ability prevents such things from killing him.

Personally I consider Itachi a tier below Minato if you must know.  I would put Madara and Minato on the same tier, since it appears to me that they are both final benchmarks for Sasuke and Naruto respectively.

Madara was without a doubt stronger than Minato due to his unique abilities, but Minato was, imo, the same class of ninja in terms of skill, intelligence, etc.  I dont think Itachi can really be put on the same level as Minato/Madara.  I just can't see it.  

And like I said, Itachi was ended by a pre-MS Sasuke.  To put him on the same level as a guy that controlled a bijuu and a guy that went head to head with Madara and also the Kyuubi...i think thats crazy talk.


----------



## dungsi27 (Aug 1, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> What difference does it make? It's still entirely possible to trace Minato's line of sight. Even if you don't utilize the method I've suggested, you have to ask yourself, where else would he be looking? Two combatants usually look at each other's faces (or the next best thing) when they fight.



Yes Minato was looking at Madaras face and I never denied that.

As Ive said Minato could have looked into SOME POINT ON HIS MASK/FACE.

But directly into Madaras eye?Not so sure.


silenceofthelambs said:


> Because maybe he didn't have enough time to look?



Yes the whole point is, Minato never saw the sharingan,thus we can say that he never looked into Madaras eye(unless of course,Madara,for some reason,turned off his sharingan whenever Minato looked)


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 1, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> In my defense I never indicated my views on the margin between them.  I will say this, I definitely think Minato is stronger...and *I definitely think he'd handle Itachi in a similar manner as when he handled Madara*.  If that was Itachi he would have been dead, but Madara's ability prevents such things from killing him.



Then that's a grave underestimation of Itachi. Minato may have been called the "best" that's been produced by Konoha, but Itachi has his own hype going for him. And it's only bound to increase.



AMtrack said:


> Personally I consider Itachi a tier below Minato if you must know.  I would put Madara and Minato on the same tier, since it appears to me that they are both final benchmarks for Sasuke and Naruto respectively.
> 
> Madara was without a doubt stronger than Minato due to his unique abilities, but Minato was, imo, the same class of ninja in terms of skill, intelligence, etc.  I dont think Itachi can really be put on the same level as Minato/Madara.  I just can't see it.



Pre-Rinnegan Madara wasn't stronger than Minato. At best, he was equal, but he wasn't above him.   



AMtrack said:


> And like I said, Itachi was ended by a pre-MS Sasuke.  To put him on the same level as a guy that controlled a bijuu and a guy that went head to head with Madara and also the Kyuubi...i think thats crazy talk.



Itachi was on the verge of death, and he very much intended to lose. Madara even says that if Itachi were serious back then, Sasuke would be without a doubt.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 2, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Yes Minato was looking at Madaras face and I never denied that.
> 
> As Ive said Minato could have looked into SOME POINT ON HIS MASK/FACE.
> 
> But directly into Madaras eye?Not so sure.



Then what else would he be looking for in that eyehole of Madara's?



dungsi27 said:


> Yes the whole point is, Minato never saw the sharingan,thus we can say that he never looked into Madaras eye(unless of course,Madara,for some reason,turned off his sharingan whenever Minato looked)



There can be a multitude of reasons as to why Minato didn't notice Madara's Sharingan, despite looking into the eyehole of his mask. You just stated one of them.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Itachi was on the verge of death, and he very much intended to lose. Madara even says that if Itachi were serious back then, Sasuke would be without a doubt.



Well thats just it, the manner of his death is just...his feats just seem to lack in grandeur compared with both Madara and Minato, which is why I have a hard time putting them on the same tier.

Its not that im underestimating Itachi, I just know for a fact that he has no counter for Hiraishin..no one does.  If Minato can use Hiraishin its over, unless you're literally invincible like Madara and can't die.  

Minato is faster than Itachi, stronger than Itachi, and in all likelihood smarter than Itachi.  The only prayer Itachi has of victory is purely within Tsukuyomi, but that only works if Minato looks him in the eye...and thats assuming Itachi has the reflexes to activate it before Minato uses Hiraishin.


I mean Minato is one smart cookie...he figured out Madara's phasing ability in a couple of exchanges.  Not only did he figure it out, he countered it on the next shot.  For all these reasons I can't put them on the same tier...because while Itachi is up there it doesn't seem to match the hype/legacy that the author has laid out for Rikudou, Madara, or Minato.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 2, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> Well thats just it, the manner of his death is just...his feats just seem to lack in grandeur compared with both Madara and Minato, which is why I have a hard time putting them on the same tier.



1. He was a pacifist, and avoided fighting whenever he could.
2. He was ill most of his life, and thus never got to display his true power (and most likely never even wanted to).
3. He was interested in other things (stopping Madara and his sinister schemes).



AMtrack said:


> Its not that im underestimating Itachi, I just know for a fact that he has no counter for Hiraishin...*no one does*.  If Minato can use Hiraishin its over, unless you're literally invincible like Madara and can't die.



Killer Bee did rather well against it. 

I suppose Minato > Rikudou, after all, then.  



AMtrack said:


> Minato is faster than Itachi, stronger than Itachi, and in all likelihood smarter than Itachi.  The only prayer Itachi has of victory is purely within Tsukuyomi, but that only works if Minato looks him in the eye...and thats assuming Itachi has the reflexes to activate it before Minato uses Hiraishin.



Tsukuyomi is instant.



AMtrack said:


> I mean Minato is one smart cookie...he figured out Madara's phasing ability in a couple of exchanges.  Not only did he figure it out, he countered it on the next shot.  For all these reasons I can't put them on the same tier...because while Itachi is up there it doesn't seem to match the hype/legacy that the author has laid out for Rikudou, Madara, or Minato.



Refer to my numbered points above.


----------



## dungsi27 (Aug 2, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Then what else would he be looking for in that eyehole of Madara's?


My point is,he wasnt looking at that eye hole.


silenceofthelambs said:


> There can be a multitude of reasons as to why Minato didn't notice Madara's Sharingan, despite looking into the eyehole of his mask. You just stated one of them.



List them.

And whatever the reason is,Minato and Madaras eyes didnt meet.

For whatever reason,is not important.Maybe Madara was the one avoiding eye-contact.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 2, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> My point is,he wasnt looking at that eye hole.



This is going to go back and forth.

Let's agree to disagree, then. 



dungsi27 said:


> List them.
> 
> And whatever the reason is,Minato and Madaras eyes didnt meet.



1. Not enough time to look; he teleported moments after laying eyes on Madara's mask (or his Sharingan). 
2. It could have taken on a pattern Minato didn't recognize; reference.
3. Minato already assumed that Madara would have Sharingan.
4. With all the things on his mind at that moment, perhaps he didn't deem it relevant, forgot to mention it, or didn't have anyone to tell it to (Kushina was dying).


----------



## batman22wins (Aug 2, 2011)

Why do people keep forgetting Madara was zap of his powers. Minato beat A Madara who can't perform noting but one jutsu. EMS Madara probably had a stack of moves. Minato isn't a tier above him. Kishi just said 4 top tier ninja last chapter. Minato isn't a tier above Killerbee when Killerbee was already reacting to him not even in version 1 mode. Kishi has clearly stated who the top tiers are, but some top ties can beat others because of one jutsu. Itachi vs Oro. Oro is a freaking beast, but loss easily. Oat like a lot of top tiers who don't have a counter for itachi.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 2, 2011)

batman22wins said:


> Why do people keep forgetting Madara was zap of his powers. Minato beat A Madara who can't perform noting but one jutsu. EMS Madara probably had a stack of moves. Minato isn't a tier above him.





This post tells it like it is.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Aug 2, 2011)

Strategos said:


> I mean, it takes about two seconds of reasoning to realize that it wouldn't work on Tsukuyomi, because Tsukuyomi is over instantly, and thus before any real-time chakra can be converted from stamina. The same reason kais fail.



I wouldn't rule out that possibility .

1 sec (RL) = 72 hrs in Tsukoyomi realm . 

A blind and near death Itachi was able to activate Susanoo in 1/1000th of a second . 

So I don't think its far fetched to say Minato can activate Hirashin too to escape Tsukoyomi . (Assuming he realises that he is in a genjutsu before its too late ).

Edit to add : 



SuperMinato146 said:


> *My thoughts on Hirashin :*
> 
> Minato is able to precisely choose which Kunai to teleport to . I don't think its possible without the awareness of the surroundings .
> 
> ...


----------



## batman22wins (Aug 2, 2011)

lathia said:


> Tardism at is finest. Let me hear your subjective reason for such? Because all we have is hype coming from subjective sources. Jiraya, Raikage A, etc vs Zetsu calling him invincible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato isn't perfect. Ihmf he was he wouldn't be dead. He also wouldn't of drawn with A and B back then.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> 1. He was a pacifist, and avoided fighting whenever he could.
> 2. He was ill most of his life, and thus never got to display his true power (and most likely never even wanted to).
> 3. He was interested in other things (stopping Madara and his sinister schemes).



Yet you want me to believe a sick, half-dead, pacifist is on the same tier as a war veteran/hokage who went toe to toe with a guy Itachi was only trying to foil from the behind the scenes?  Still can't see it.  Itachi wasn't even Madara's equal.





> Killer Bee did rather well against it.



Yes, but Minato still spared his life.  Doing well and winning are entirely different things.  He let him live probably because of his potential.



> I suppose Minato > Rikudou, after all, then.



I'm certain the god of all jutsu has a counter for Hiraishin.  As if i'd believe something so ridiculous.  I'm not a Minato fanboy really, and I personally really like Itachi.  But I call it as I see it.





> Tsukuyomi is instant.



Upon activation.  The user still has to cast Tsukuyomi, which requires recognition/reflexes/etc.  What made Itachi so dangerous was that he could take advantage of even the slightest eye contact the split second it happened.

However, Minato also has bar none the best reflexes in the manga.  So assuming there was even eye contact at all, who would fire first?  Both Tsukuyomi and Hiraishin are instant upon activation so its a matter of who's got faster reflexes.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Aug 2, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> Yet you want me to believe a sick, half-dead, pacifist is on the same tier as a war veteran/hokage who went toe to toe with a guy Itachi was only trying to foil from the behind the scenes?  Still can't see it.  Itachi wasn't even Madara's equal.



No. 

I'm saying that Itachi was never given the chance to display the extent of his capabilities. Except now.



AMtrack said:


> Yes, but Minato still spared his life.  Doing well and winning are entirely different things.  He let him live probably because of his potential.



It was a stalemate. The manga makes it clear.



AMtrack said:


> I'm certain the god of all jutsu has a counter for Hiraishin.  As if i'd believe something so ridiculous. I'm not a Minato fanboy really, and I personally really like Itachi.  But I call it as I see it.



So Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage, after all. 



AMtrack said:


> Upon activation.  The user still has to cast Tsukuyomi, which requires recognition/reflexes/etc.  What made Itachi so dangerous was that he could take advantage of even the slightest eye contact the split second it happened.
> 
> However, Minato also has bar none the best reflexes in the manga.  So assuming there was even eye contact at all, who would fire first?  Both Tsukuyomi and Hiraishin are instant upon activation so its a matter of who's got faster reflexes.



Raikage, with his Lightning Shroud, has better reflexes.

Tsukuyomi is instant upon activation, as you said; so what can the opponent do once the illusion has already been put into play?


----------



## dungsi27 (Aug 2, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> This is going to go back and forth.
> 
> Let's agree to disagree, then.


Agreed!



silenceofthelambs said:


> 2. It could have taken on a pattern Minato didn't recognize; reference.



Madaras eye didnt change its look it was Kyubis


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> No.
> 
> I'm saying that Itachi was never given the chance to display the extent of his capabilities. Except now.



But Edo Itachi is superior to Itachi, due to lack of illness, lack of pacifism, lack of chakra limitations, and is physically invincible.  Long story short, Edo Itachi is not Itachi's full power, as you said that full power never existed, because it was never displayed.  Itachi was likely ill before he reached his peak ability, thus was perpetually handicapped.

A lot of ppl are assuming Edo-Itachi=Itachi and thats not true.  Edo-Itachi is basically Itachi with all weaknesses removed, physically and mentally.





> It was a stalemate. The manga makes it clear.



That exchange was a stalemate, the entire fight was not.  Minato could have just as easily began a new assault with those kunai he had laying around.  If he wanted to kill him he could have, simple as that.

And Kirabi has bijuu durability, something Itachi doesn't have.







> Raikage, with his Lightning Shroud, has better reflexes.



Thanks for the correction, best base reflexes in the manga.



> Tsukuyomi is instant upon activation, as you said; so what can the opponent do once the illusion has already been put into play?



Dont know, we've been arguing that for pages and quite frankly its never been addressed in manga, not in detail anyway, so I wont bank on anything either way.

My point is that its a matter of who reacts fastest.  Assuming there's eye contact, the first to activate will probably win.  But thats assuming definite eye contact.  And like I said, Minato has th fastest base reflexes, so its a bit of a toss-up on whether Itachi can even catch him in Tsukuyomi.


----------



## MangaR (Aug 2, 2011)

Big flow in this is that there are 2 types of genjutsu shown in the manga.

1st is making some simple quick genjutsu, you can't just kai it because it would be fast and won't mess with reality on any scale. You won't even realize that its a genjutsu so even for FTL speedsters it would be hard unless they will move around. Examples: Sasuke vs Danzo, Itachi vs Sasuke, Itachi vs Bee.
Simple genjutsu that will tell you that you're in. Examples: Itachi vs Orochimaru, Itachi vs Naruto, Kurenai vs Itachi.

2nd is complete control. You can't do jack shit in real world. Sasuke vs C, Itachi vs Sasuke,  Sasuke vs Bee, Frogs vs 3 paths of pein. None of those were moving in real world anything they displayed under genjutsu was in their mind. It is possible to disperse such genjutsu if you have some sick mind or have perfect control of chakra(it goes from mind in the first place)

If i were Minato with all techincs shown and the only task would be find a way to beat genjutsu user than i would *attack *as fast i can going on 1 shot and *not playing defensive* because the figtht will be much harder that way.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 2, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> A lot of ppl are assuming Edo-Itachi=Itachi and thats not true.  Edo-Itachi is basically Itachi with all weaknesses removed, physically and mentally.
> 
> *A more powerful form of Itachi that can never be matched by the real once-alive version.  Agreed.*
> 
> ...



There is no way that Itachi's eye can FOCUS faster than Hiraishin which fodderized the Raikage in the midst of his fastest and strongest punch.

And like someone stated earlier, if Tsukiyomi was all that, then why...uh, nevermind.


----------



## ? (Aug 2, 2011)

Why are some people completely ignoring that this is possible, just because there are _some_ instances where people couldn't move/use ninjutsu?


Anyway, Turrin has a point. He has presented more evidence of people being able to move/use ninjutsu while in genjutsu, than people have shown when someone couldn't. I wouldn't say it's fact that this could happen, but it is very possible based on the many times people have moved and used ninjutsu while under genjutsu. Not only that, but the mechanics of how genjutsu work and how Hiraishin works strongly imply this is possible. Genjutsu only effects the 5 senses, so a sensor should still be able to sense in the real world. Minato can sense where his tags are since his chakra is embedded into it; thus, he still has some connection to reality.


----------



## MCHammerdad (Aug 2, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Minato actually has a simple maneuver that would cancel the effects of all Genjutsu on him and this is simply teleporting a massive distance away from the enemy, which should not be difficult since he has tons of Kunai scattered all over the place, including in Konoha. Now here's the reason why this would work. Genjutsu =
> 
> ​
> So Genjutsu essentially amounts to controlling a person via their chakra and senses. And AO States [and I have 2 different quality translations of it]:
> ...




1. Yes, against low level genjutsu this would most likely work.

2. Paralysing genjutsu would ass fuck him.

3. Tsukuyomi would assfuck him. (While you can "activate jutsu"in tsukuyomi, you don't actually do anything in the physical world. Meanning hirashin in the genjutsu would do nothing.  (If itachi isn't holding back it would be a kakshi level tsukyomi anyway, meanning he would be restrained to not be able to use jutsu in any case.)

4. Subtle genjutsu would make the point moot, as the user would be unable to decide when or where he was in a genjutsu at. 



Conclusion, this technique should work. But only against techs that a hokage should be completely capable of Kai'ing out of in any case.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2011)

MCHammerdad said:


> 1. Yes, against low level genjutsu this would most likely work.
> 
> 2. Paralysing genjutsu would ass fuck him.
> 
> ...



Hiraishin doesn't work like other jutsu.  Case in point, it relies on two sources of chakra...the user and the chakra on the tag/seal.  You can't put a chakra tag within a genjutsu, so if Minato activated Hiraishin, that outside chakra source (ie the tag) would work normally.  Minato cannot Hiraishin within a genjutsu, its either he can activate it or he can't activate it.  Because the chakra tags are unaffected, the only issue is whether or not Minato can perceive them.

The real question is that regardless of whether Minato perceives the tag or not, if he activates Hiraishin will he still teleport?  As in we've only seen Minato teleport to tags on purpose, but if Minato's senses couldn't perceive a tag and he used Hiraishin, where would he go?  Would he go at all..does he have to know which tag he's going to?  Or will it take him to a tag at random? Food for thought.  What i'd like to know is whether outside chakra sources can be perceived within Tsukuyomi.  If so then Hiraishin is a legit counter.

Paralyzing jutsu dont matter because Hiraishin doesn't require movement.

Subtle genjutsu don't matter because thread assume the user knows he is in a genjutsu.  Shinobis are capable of recognizing subtle genjutsu if they are smart enough.

The only genjutsu potentially strong enough to thwart Hiraishin is Tsukuyomi...but as I've said, and another guy said already, no one has the reflexes to catch him in it anyway.


----------



## edangs (Aug 2, 2011)

how is minato suppose to know to teleport when he is already under tsukiyomi?

someone has to throw one of his kunai that alerts and teleports him. only then he gets far enough for the genjutsu to break.


----------



## MCHammerdad (Aug 2, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> Hiraishin doesn't work like other jutsu.  Case in point, it relies on two sources of chakra...the user and the chakra on the tag/seal.  You can't put a chakra tag within a genjutsu, so if Minato activated Hiraishin, that outside chakra source (ie the tag) would work normally.  Minato cannot Hiraishin within a genjutsu, its either he can activate it or he can't activate it.  Because the chakra tags are unaffected, the only issue is whether or not Minato can perceive them.




Within a complex genjutsu, he could attempt to use tsukuyomi. But it would be the equivalent of thinking about getting a drink and drinking it. It just wouldn't happen and would have no bearing on the physical world.

You can't cast ninjutsu in a genjutsu such as Frog Song/ Tsukuyomi/ Orochimaru's realm. (you CAN but it is contained in the realm)









> The real question is that regardless of whether Minato perceives the tag or not, if he activates Hiraishin will he still teleport?  As in we've only seen Minato teleport to tags on purpose, but if Minato's senses couldn't perceive a tag and he used Hiraishin, where would he go?  Would he go at all..does he have to know which tag he's going to?  Or will it take him to a tag at random? Food for thought.  What i'd like to know is whether outside chakra sources can be perceived within Tsukuyomi.  If so then Hiraishin is a legit counter.



Explained above, it won't work. He could TRY but all that would effectively do nothing. 


> Paralyzing jutsu dont matter because Hiraishin doesn't require movement.



It required a hand sign. 


> Subtle genjutsu don't matter because thread assume the user knows he is in a genjutsu.  Shinobis are capable of recognizing subtle genjutsu if they are smart enough.



Not really, if you are hit with a suble genjutsu in the midst of a taijutsu exchange and the genjutsu picks up where it was first cast at. You would have to have some type of partner/ doujutsu/ or something because you wouldn't have any clues to point toward you being genjutsu'd in the first place.

any shinobi can fall for these genjutsu. Luckily 99% of the narutoverse requires handsigns/ other visible gestures to cast genjutsu. 



> The only genjutsu potentially strong enough to thwart Hiraishin is Tsukuyomi...but as I've said, and another guy said already, no one has the reflexes to catch him in it anyway.



Itachi reflexes are superior to minatos. All that is required is eye contact meaning that as soon as minato looks at him. He is hit with Tsukuyomi. 

Its not something you can dodge. It doesn't require the Same type of Prep as amaterasu with the tell tale bleeding.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2011)

Turrin said:


> No you think about how it doesn't make sense that your arguing a Ninja can't use Ninjutsu while under finger Genjutsu when a Ninja did in-fact use a Ninjutsu technique under finger Genjutsu.
> 
> Furthermore all Genjutsu controls the person's chakra in their cranial nerve, not their whole body and Jiriaya already explained this in the very same chapters of the finger Genjutsu. This is why a person can still use Techniques despite being under Genjutsu [something we have seen time and time again in the manga] since its a very small portion of their chakra being controlled.


read this : 



Sniffers said:


> To add to the obvious Strategos already provided above:
> 
> Zetsu even mentions that Itachi and Sasuke hadn't moved when we, the audience, saw taijutsu and ninjutsu alike. The point is, it all happened in their heads. Those ninjutsu actually weren't activated. Hence Hiraishin would not actually be activated either. The same happened with Naruto, when he woke up he had his arms beside him rather than in the choking-himself position. It again happened when Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, he never went CS2 in reality. Only in the genjutsu.
> 
> Sure, there are other types of genjutsu as well, where the victim can still use his/her jutsu, and only their perception is altered. Bringer of Darkness for example.



Sniffers already ended the thread.

In the encounter between Itachi and Sasuke, they simply stared each other. Thats what we were shown and thats what Zetsu had stated.

Everything happened inside their head. Sasuke didn't have control over his actions in the real word.

Long story short, it depends on the type of the genjutsu. Some allow real world interreaction, some don't.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 2, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sniffers already ended the thread.
> 
> In the encounter between Itachi and Sasuke, they simply stared each other. Thats what we were shown and thats what Zetsu had stated.
> 
> ...


How I hate the selective reading of your fandom. Zetsu clearly explains why they didn't move, I.E. they are exchanging Genjutsu. Both Sasuke and Itachi were using Genjutsu, nether was using attempting to use Ninjutsu or move at all in the real world.


----------



## Shadow050 (Aug 2, 2011)

using a jutsu while in a genjutsu isn't very safe lol. i saw that deidara was used as an example of using jutsu while in a genjutsu... which is fine aside from the fact that it was himself he was about to blow up.

this suggests that it's not safe to use other jutsu while caught in a genjutsu. 

he could try to teleport and end up in the same place lol. 

in any case, he doesn't need this tactic to deal with genjutsu since he insta-breaks it anyway...

as was said, some genjutsu allow one to see and move in the real world, and others do not. this method won't necessarily work on genjutsu that manipulates ones reality very much - as it could be to no avail.

some genjutsu don't even allow the caster to do much moving lol. the itachi and sasuke encounter are evidence of this. genjutsu involves a lot of mental work at times. the sharingan genjutsu battle implies this.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 2, 2011)

MCHammerdad said:


> 2. Paralysing genjutsu would ass fuck him.


Minato does not need to move to use FTG, so he'd handle paralyzing Genjutsu just fine 



> Tsukuyomi would assfuck him. (While you can "activate jutsu"in tsukuyomi, you don't actually do anything in the physical world. Meanning hirashin in the genjutsu would do nothing. (If itachi isn't holding back it would be a kakshi level tsukyomi anyway, meanning he would be restrained to not be able to use jutsu in any case.)


This was never stated. In-fact we are shown the opposite when Sasuke activates the abilities of his real world three tome Sharingan to counter Tsukuyomi



> Subtle genjutsu would make the point moot, as the user would be unable to decide when or where he was in a genjutsu at.


I agree here, but that's why I said in the Op which you quoted, that this works under the assumption that Minato knows he's under Genjutsu.




Shadow050 said:


> using a jutsu while in a genjutsu isn't very safe lol. i saw that deidara was used as an example of using jutsu while in a genjutsu... which is fine aside from the fact that it was himself he was about to blow up.
> 
> this suggests that it's not safe to use other jutsu while caught in a genjutsu.
> 
> he could try to teleport and end up in the same place lol.


Not really. Itachi got Deidara to target himself by messing with Deidara's perception of where his target was. Minato has so many FTG Kunai scattered around the world their is no way that Itachi could mess with Minato perception of where a Kunai is which he doesn't even know exists.



> in any case, he doesn't need this tactic to deal with genjutsu since he insta-breaks it anyway...


What? how?


----------



## Shadow050 (Aug 2, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Minato does not need to move to use FTG, so he'd handle paralyzing Genjutsu just fine
> 
> 
> *This was never stated. In-fact we are shown the opposite when Sasuke activates the abilities of his real world three tome Sharingan to counter Tsukuyomi
> ...



but we see that sasuke didn't ACTUALLY do anything that was occurring in the illusion. he wasn't even actually using the CS, which many people concluded to probably be the reason he was able to "break out" of it. 

meanwhile, he simply withstood/overcame it, and nothing more.

This is not the explosion of a Bijuu Dama
This is not the explosion of a Bijuu Dama

we can  see sasuke was tired from withstanding/overcoming it... and itachi is tired because he used it- not because it was "revsered" on him or anything.

This is not the explosion of a Bijuu Dama
the "side effect" is just the exhaustion and sight deterioration that using MS techs cause.

as i've said before on NF, Tsukuyomi can be overcome with a strong will. the will of sasuke's hatred towards itachi allow him to withstand and overcome the illusion.

besides... we know that any jutsu used within itachi's tsukuyomi is allowed to be used by itachi, since he has dominion over just about all things within that world.


----------



## Shadow050 (Aug 2, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Not really. Itachi got Deidara to target himself by messing with Deidara's perception of where his target was. Minato has so many FTG Kunai scattered around the world their is no way that Itachi could mess with Minato perception of where a Kunai is which he doesn't even know exists.
> 
> 
> What? how?



minato carries kunai on him, if his world is distorted enough, he could teleport to the kunai he has on him, instead of one that's far away. thus, he wouldn't go anywhere. his perception could get so screwed that while he thinks he thinking of a distant one, it's actually a close one. theoretically anyway.

as for the insta-breaking... it's the same as raikage's.

the reason illusions don't work on him is because his synapses are way too fast. meaning his perception/realization and reaction speed is way too fast. so he realizes he's in a genjutsu and breaks it so fast i'd call it "insta-breaking" it.

This is not the explosion of a Bijuu Dama

look... raiakge's looking directly into sasuke's eyes, and telling him the sharingan is no match for him. 

he's telling sasuke his genjutsu won't work... it "won't work" because he has "virtual immunity" via "insta-breaking" it. it's the reason that Shii speaks of synapses - which are the brain electrical responses if i'm not mistaken.

_then_ shii sasuke that with the lightning shroud they won't be able to keep up with is physical speed.

people have been misinterpreting this page and event since t happened. minato has the same kind of perception/realization/reaction things going on. it's the only reason he can utilize hiraishin so effectively in the first place.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2011)

Turrin said:


> How I hate the selective reading of your fandom. Zetsu clearly explains why they didn't move, I.E. they are exchanging Genjutsu. Both Sasuke and Itachi were using Genjutsu, nether was using attempting to use Ninjutsu or move at all in the real world.



That is your own interpretation. How is it possible for them to move or use ninjutsu when everything is going in their head anyways ? 

Also sasuke was trying to break Itachi's genjutsu, and @ one point he thought he did. But he was still trapped inside the genjutsu and it took a while for him to see through it. 


Anyways, you still haven't explained how 72 hours of experience correspond to real time action. 
What happens when you try to move or  use ninjutsu in the compressed time frame within Tsukiyomi ? 

Even if we assume that your attempt of using ninjutsu or moving your finger is percieved and transmitted, Tsukiyomi will be all over before your body recieves the message.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 2, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That is your own interpretation.


How is something directly stated in the manga my own interpretation. Zetsu blatantly states that Sasuke and Itachi were just exchanging Genjutsu, not that they were trying to use Ninjutsu or Taijutsu Techniques. 

All the other stuff I have explained at length throughout the many pages of this thread, so go back and read it.




Shadow050 said:


> but we see that sasuke didn't ACTUALLY do anything that was occurring in the illusion. he wasn't even actually using the CS, which many people concluded to probably be the reason he was able to "break out" of it.
> 
> meanwhile, he simply withstood/overcame it, and nothing more.
> 
> ...


The thing is we were directly told by Zetsu that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi through the usage of his three tome Sharingan not will power. 




Shadow050 said:


> minato carries kunai on him, if his world is distorted enough, he could teleport to the kunai he has on him, instead of one that's far away. thus, he wouldn't go anywhere. his perception could get so screwed that while he thinks he thinking of a distant one, it's actually a close one. theoretically anyway.
> 
> as for the insta-breaking... it's the same as raikage's.
> 
> ...


I agree that Itachi might be able to distort Minato's perception of where certain Kunai he's aware of are thus making him teleport to the wrong one. However I do not see how Itachi could distort Minato's perception of where Kunai/seals are that Itachi doesn't even know exist, that doesn't make sense to me.

As for the thing about reflexes thats another interesting theory that I could see being true.


----------



## Shidoshi (Aug 2, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> I'm pretty sure the act of using Hiraishin alone would break a genjutsu because of how it works.  Minato actually teleports, thus temporarily leaving this dimension, and likely breaking any illusion he is in.  A genjutsu user cannot maintain a genjutsu on someone who literally isnt there.  His chakra trace would vanish entirely, so the genjutsu would automatically break.


If that were true, Madara would not have been able to keep Fu and Torune under his genjutsu when they were in his own "pocket" dimension -- physically separated from normal spacetime.

Unless he was using some other means of maintaining that genjutsu on them.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> A lot of ppl are assuming Edo-Itachi=Itachi and thats not true.  Edo-Itachi is basically Itachi with all weaknesses removed, physically and mentally.



Just like all the other Edos are much stronger than they were in life.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Just like all the other Edos are much stronger than they were in life.


I dont recall the other guys being half-dead with illness during much of their life like Itachi was.  You try to be a smartass but its not working very well for you.  If you actually*read* the post I said:

1) Edo-Itachi isn't ill like Itachi was

2) Edo-Itachi can't be killed (this is a big no duh in comparing the two)

3) Edo-Itachi has unlimited chakra, thus can spam eye techniques at will


I'm sorry man but...I dont know what else to tell you.  Edos have always been superior to their originals for the obvious reasons that they aren't limited by chakra and can't be killed.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2011)

Nagato's body was crippled in life. And it's crippled now. You are only assuming Itachi's body is healed, because it benefits your de-hyping of him. 



			
				AmTrack said:
			
		

> I'm sorry man but...I dont know what else to tell you. Edos have always been superior to their originals



Edo Tensei summons have all been, without exception, weaker, because the summons are being forced to fight by the one controlling Edo Tensei.


*Spoiler*: _When this thread could have ended_ 





alex payne said:


> "Classic Turrin Thread"
> 
> 1) *Several types of genjutsu wouldn't allow Minato to use FTG without dispelling them first*
> 2) Tsukiyomi is definitely too fast to use FTG and try to counter it
> 3) I suggest you reread the chapter where Kabuto showed the mechanics of Edo Tensei to Madara.* Madara said that he kept Fu and Torune under his genjutsu. In his own pocket dimension. Some genjutsu doesn't require user to constantly control chakra of their victims. *Temple of Nirvana comes to mind too.





Vergil642 said:


> This would indeed work, but only against weaker Genjutsu such as Tayuya's.
> 
> *You can roughly split Genjutsu into two unofficial types, those that completely trap your senses and those that do not.* For example, Kurenai's Magen: Jubaku Satsu makes you believe a tree has grown around you and trapped you. You still however perceive the real world and most importantly can move in it. Similarly Itachi's Genjutsu that was used against Deidara allowed Deidara to move in the real world, nearly resulting in Deidara's death.
> 
> ...





Strategos said:


> I can't believe Turrin believes Naruto was running around using Rasengan and screaming, crying, and throwing kunai while in finger genjutsu before his partners could break him out. As opposed to the obvious: it was in his head.
> 
> But of course, he'll argue that all genjutsu is the same, just like all ninjutsu, despite overwhelming evidence, as long as it gets Minato the slightest edge over Itachi. And of course Minato fans will agree with him. Tsukuyomi? Just use the ninjutsu: kai.





Sniffers said:


> To add to the obvious Strategos already provided above:
> 
> *Zetsu even mentions that Itachi and Sasuke hadn't moved when we, the audience, saw taijutsu and ninjutsu alike. The point is, it all happened in their heads. Those ninjutsu actually weren't activated.* Hence Hiraishin would not actually be activated either. The same happened with Naruto, when he woke up he had his arms beside him rather than in the choking-himself position. It again happened when Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, he never went CS2 in reality. Only in the genjutsu.
> 
> Sure, there are other types of genjutsu as well, where the victim can still use his/her jutsu, and only their perception is altered. Bringer of Darkness for example.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Nagato's body was crippled in life. And it's crippled now. You're only assuming Itachi's body is perfect, because it benefits your de-hyping of him.
> 
> I don't need to be a smart ass to point out why yours posts are silly. Edo Tensei have all been, without exception, weaker, because the summons lack the will of fire.



Illness =/= physically crippled.  And yes I'm assuming his body is perfect, because dead ppl can't be sick.  That defies all logic.  Do I really need to explain that to you?  Dead ppl can be crippled because its a physical handicap.  If your body loses an arm, that arm is not coming back.  Illness cannot affect the dead.  Have you ever seen a zombie with a cold? Seriously.    

And you still have not addressed the fact that edos have unlimited chakra and invincibility.  Punch Edo Itachi all you want he will always stand back up.  You're still failing.  And I'm not letting you weasel out of that vast oversight without you blatantly admitting or come off looking stupid trying to save face.  What does Will of Fire have to do with any of this??  



Shidoshi said:


> If that were true, Madara would not have been able to keep Fu and Torune under his genjutsu when they were in his own "pocket" dimension -- physically separated from normal spacetime.
> 
> Unless he was using some other means of maintaining that genjutsu on them.



I think the answer is that they were in his pocket dimension, thus he could keep his genjutsu maintained.  Their chakra trace didnt vanish from his perception, because it went into his own little world.  Basically he sucks them and their chakra into his own special dimension, meaning the genjutsu wouldn't break because he is controlling them throughout the entire transition from one dimension to another.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> Illness =/= physically crippled.  And yes I'm assuming his body is perfect, because dead ppl can't be sick.  That defies all logic.  Do I really need to explain that to you? .



Dead people can't be crippled, because dead people can't move, because dead people aren't alive. "Do I really need to explain that to you?" 

If Itachi's body was weakened from disease in life, then it's weakened now, just like Nagato's body was weakened from his techniques in life.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 2, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Dead people can't be crippled, because dead people can't move, because dead people aren't alive. "Do I really need to explain that to you?"
> 
> If Itachi's body was weakened from disease in life, then it's weakened now, just like Nagato's body was weakened from his techniques in life.



If Itachi is weakened now by illness, how come he can move like he did against the jins who are faster and quicker than Hebi Sasuke?  Remember?


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Dead people can't be crippled, because dead people can't move, because dead people aren't alive. "Do I really need to explain that to you?"
> 
> If Itachi's body was weakened from disease in life, then it's weakened now, just like Nagato's body was weakened from his techniques in life.


*facepalm*

If you're a zombie and I break your leg...it stays broken.  If you were alive and your leg broke before you died...when you were rezzed it would still be broken.

If you're a zombie I can't make you sick...you're already dead.  If you were sick before you died and got rezzed as a zombie...you would be unaffected by illness because you're technically dead.

Edos are superior to originals because they can't die >_> and they have unlimited chakra.  Even if they *are* physically a little bit weaker (which there's NO indication of this btw), they have unlimited life and power supply.


EDIT:  *If* his disease actually weakened his body in the same manner that Nagato became crippled (of which there's no proof of btw), it doesn't matter in terms of Edo-Itachi.  Kabuto can make him move at full-power regardless of how he's feeling.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2011)

JPongo said:


> If Itachi is weakened now by illness, how come he can move like he did against the jins who are faster and quicker than Hebi Sasuke?  Remember?



Because he's not throwing the fight, and because he doesn't have a metal pike in his leg, like he did after Tsukuyomi.



AMtrack said:


> If you're a zombie and I break your leg...it stays broken.  If you were alive and your leg broke before you died...when you were rezzed it would still be broken.



Nagato's legs aren't broken. His muscles are weak because of his technique. Itachi's muscles are weak because of sickness.


----------



## Chaotic Gangsta (Aug 2, 2011)

He can not free himself from Tsukuyomi so give up on that. It's pretty obvious due to the nature of Tsukuyomi that he wouldn't be able to do this, period. Maybe an ordinary Genjutsu, but not Tsukuyomi. And by disturbing his chakra flow it may not even be possible for him to telport out of an ordinary Genjutsu. You're completely ignoring the law of Chakra flow and Genjutsu.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 3, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Because he's not throwing the fight, and because he doesn't have a metal pike in his leg, like he did after Tsukuyomi.
> 
> 
> 
> Nagato's legs aren't broken. His muscles are weak because of his technique. Itachi's muscles are weak because of sickness.




This was stated nowhere >_> all we knew is that Itachi was sick...and that affected his ability to fight.  HOW it affected him is relatively unknown.  So I'm not giving you that one, thats just pure theory.

Itachi showed no indication of muscle weakness so far anyway, so umm..yeah.  Long story short, can't compare edos to real bodies because they dont have the limitations of living beings.


----------



## MCHammerdad (Aug 3, 2011)

Itachi was noted to be much stronger then what he showed. When he fought it was stated that he was on his last legs already.


Ofcourse his disease made him weaker, do you think the ninja cold would kill itachi.


He had the ninja aids, he could probably barely move and his insides looked like cheese.


----------

