# KingOfLighting's "Tsunade" Review [Does He Make Good Points?]



## raizen28 (May 14, 2012)

*I watch this dude's channel for reviews on manga. this just came out Hours Ago. Explanations for Tsunade? Her Character?*[YOUTUBE]d94k-B4DIU8[/YOUTUBE]


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## Jeαnne (May 14, 2012)

klue loves this guy 

edit: 20 MINUTES!


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## Orochimaru800 (May 14, 2012)

10/10 Review

it's true. Tsunade does suck. and Yes I watched it earlier on.   now Let's see Legendary Beauty's reaction to this.


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## raizen28 (May 14, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> klue loves this guy
> 
> edit: 20 MINUTES!


*The dude is Epic*


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## Slayer (May 14, 2012)

This guy is hilarious. I like his reviews of the chapters. Watching it now.

Edit: has to your question, Suu or any other hard core Tsunade fan would tear his argument apart(they always can). 

Edit #2: @ 11:27 did he just say Neji could beat Tsunade?  I have to disagree with him on that.


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## Krippy (May 14, 2012)

10/10 

Best I've seen in a while.

LOL. 11:40 "Neji would poke the bitch to death"  

Love his gestures.


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## raizen28 (May 14, 2012)

SlayerOfGoku said:


> This guy is hilarious. I like his reviews of the chapters. Watching it now.
> 
> Edit: has to your question, Suu or any other hard core Tsunade fan would tear his argument apart(they always can).
> 
> Edit #2: @ 11:27 did he just say Neji could beat Tsunade?  I have to disagree with him on that.


HAHAHAHHAHA the Neji Wank. Wish that hardcore Neji member was here


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## Seraphiel (May 14, 2012)

I can't stand American/English people trying to pronounce Japanese names or stuff in general.

I shall watch it though.


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## raizen28 (May 14, 2012)

*10:05-10:34*

:rofl I cant stop laughing


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## Slayer (May 14, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> HAHAHAHHAHA the Neji Wank. Wishi that hardcore Neji member was here



 @15:28 He also says that Tsunade is Low - Mid Top Tier within the leaf village currently. If neji is above tsunade, I wonder who else fills that Mid - Top Top teir gap in the leaf?


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## raizen28 (May 14, 2012)

SlayerOfGoku said:


> @15:28 He also says that Tsunade is Low - Mid Top Tier within the leaf village currently. If neji is above tsunade, I wonder who else fills that Mid - Top Top teir gap in the leaf?


*13:50-13:58 MOKUTON! BITCH!*:rofl


Edit: Someone rated it 5-star thread


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## G Felon (May 14, 2012)

first time seeing this guy hes very funny. I'm going start watching him

 this review is a 10/10  is he always this funny


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## raizen28 (May 14, 2012)

G Felon said:


> first time seeing this guy hes very funny. I'm going start watching him
> 
> What he says about tsunade is true but I think he's a little light on tsunade I think she's the worst kage in history and shouldn't of been voted for over anyone neji is better suited for being kage than her


*Bro this is just him being Comfortable. Dude has Tons of FUNNY! vids etc.*


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## Santoryu (May 14, 2012)

Hilarious, although I disagree about Neji beating her.

But the others do defeat her.


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## Klue (May 14, 2012)

He is the greatest. 




G Felon said:


> first time seeing this guy hes very funny. I'm going start watching him
> 
> this review is a 10/10  is he always this funny



Check the "GOD MODE" spoiler in my sig.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 14, 2012)

I watch his chapter reviews for Naruto, OP, and FT every week. The guy is extremely funny. One of the videos you guys should check out is his video about quotes from extreme DBZ fans. It's funny as shit. I love DBZ, but even I admit most of the shit on that list was stupid as hell lmao.

Here's the link for it: New York Knicks


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## Jizznificent (May 14, 2012)

"hashirama, wood...! *MOKT-OWN BITCH!* that's all you need with this guy..." 


loved the way he said that.


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## Maerala (May 14, 2012)

"People actually _like_ Tsunade?! MUST... MAKE... SPITE... VIDEO!"

Same guy that was surprised and upset (understatement) that Tsunade survived Madara's Susanoo stab. I'd rebuke his arguments if I thought any amount of logic could win out over senseless hate.


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## Klue (May 14, 2012)

While I don't agree with him, I at least understand his argument. It's more than pure hate. Regarding her combat ability, he only considers what he sees and isn't impressed by it - can't say I really blame him for it.

But he needs to accept the fact that she is one of the strongest characters in the story regardless, on the strength of her hype alone, not to mention her position in the main character's village.

She isn't losing to Neji. 

Beyond that, he also brings up some good points: Tsunade doesn't *always* make logical decisions when running her village. Naruto and Sakura's feelings should not have prevented her from sending the kill squad to take care of Sasuke, or ordering Naruto's return to the village when Pain appeared.


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## Maerala (May 14, 2012)

Klue said:


> Beyond that, he also brings up some good points: Tsunade doesn't *always* make logical decisions when running her village. Naruto and Sakura's feelings should not have prevented her from sending the kill squad to take care of Sasuke, or ordering Naruto's return to the village when Pain appeared.



And I would be inclined to agree with that were it not for the fact that these people live in a magical universe where everyone and their mom has the ability to sense greatness in someone else. Naruto is the Child of Prophecy, destined to save the world from destruction. Any Kage who's not going out of their way to keep Naruto loyal to the village is not doing a very good job. Danzō tried it, and now he's dead. Just going against Naruto, the main character, goes against what constitutes a "good" character in this story.

Naruto was recalled to the village because he left specifically to learn how to fight Pain in the first place. He has destiny on his side, and everyone knows it at this point. Danzō disagreed with Tsunade's leadership and he failed when he tried to implement his own. It should speak for itself, imo.


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 14, 2012)

You heard the man! Kakashi as hokage
[sp=Over-sized Image][/sp]

10/10 Review


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 14, 2012)

Yea the dude is funny, also tsunade does suck blame kishi her introduction made me dislike her, and getting spanked by kabuto did not impress me either.

Regardless tsunade has little screen time, and kabuto, pain, and Madara have taught her a lesson already so it's whatever lets just say I'm neutral if she dies or lives I don't care.


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## Stormcloak (May 15, 2012)

that shit was funny


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## Rawri (May 15, 2012)

I am actually subscribed to this dude  Hilarious as always


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## DeK3iDE (May 15, 2012)

This guy basically summed up everything i've been saying about Tsunade's fighting and her leadership skills for the longest through an objective view though i have a hard time believing Neji would beat Tsunade. But then again, Kabuto just gave her one good smack and that fight was over


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## BlinkST (May 15, 2012)

Posting in a KoL wank thread


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## Syxaxis (May 15, 2012)

Good review.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 15, 2012)

> Danzo ordered Sasuke's execution, not Tsunade.



True. But that is because she was in a coma when Sasuke joined the Akatsuki. Before Danzo became Hokage, Sasuke had yet to kill an innocent man in his life, as far as we know. He had actually "killed" Orochimaru, Deidara, and Itachi. Horrible point.



> Katsuyu isn't that important



Care to explain why an unkillable slug is not a big part of her arsenal? 



> The only things to her abilities are regeneration, taijutsu, and Katsuyu



She can also paralyze people by tapping them. 



> Neji can easily beat her



Neji is incredibly weak and cannot even hold his own against Zetsu. He is not capable of holding his own against Akatsuki or Kages in any capacity. His experience against Kisame shows that.



> Gai would beat her



Gai's only claim to fame is that he beat 30% Shoeten Kisame and Samehadless Kisame. Gai is not considered a Hokage candidate, and is regarded as too weak to even fight Pein as support.



> Kakashi would beat her



Kakashi's long list of successfull battles really proves that. Kakashi is below base Naruto. 

Tsunade's portrayal puts her above any of those three.



> Healing the villagers against Pein was a waste, because Naruto got him to revive everyone at the end



Yeah, she should have predicted that Nagato would revive thousands of people back from the dead. Not to mention the butterfly effect could possibly prevent Nagato from reviving anyone.


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## LuffyStraw (May 15, 2012)

KOL is my boy, been subbed to him for a while now, always love his videos and he always brings good points and entertainment, he drunk Tsunade's tits for breakfast.


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## Orochimaru800 (May 15, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> *13:50-13:58 MOKUTON! BITCH!*:rofl
> 
> 
> Edit: Someone rated it 5-star thread



quality Threads deserve 5 stars. though Some nooblet brought it back to 4


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## Fruit Monger (May 15, 2012)

Neji?! Oh HELL YEA!


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## tupadre97 (May 15, 2012)

KOL is one the best anime reviewers on youtube everybody hear should sub him.


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## ImSerious (May 15, 2012)

this guy is hilarious


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## Rios (May 15, 2012)

keeeeeeeeeeh too long to watch now but I'll make sure to do so later. Glad to see more people supporting the cause /brofist


EDIT: By the way did he mention her title "legendary sucker" ? This alone proves his point.


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## Melodie (May 15, 2012)

Pathetic review. not worth refuting his points as he's clearly one of the many haters (oh yeah, I did watch it). Can't disagree that he's funny on other reviews, though.​


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## Kirath (May 15, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> I can't stand American/English people trying to pronounce Japanese names or stuff in general.
> 
> I shall watch it though.



Yeah, it's really annoying...


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## DaKakz (May 15, 2012)

Melodie said:


> Pathetic review. not worth refuting his points as he's clearly one of the many haters (oh yeah, I did watch it). Can't disagree that he's funny on other reviews, though.​



I think someone is mad.


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## Krippy (May 15, 2012)

Just brought this thread back up to 5 stars. 

The least I could do.


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## Melodie (May 15, 2012)

Cthulhu21 said:


> I think someone is mad.



Just expressing my opinion. . It's not like his points are not seen in every thread that Tsunade is related in.  ​


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## Vash (May 15, 2012)

Does this guy even realize he's spelt "lightning" wrong?


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## Rios (May 15, 2012)

He is black.


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## $Kakashi$ (May 15, 2012)

His points are terrible. He is looking at it in hindsight and not even bothering to look at his "Points" from tsunades view point at the time.


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## Ryuzaki (May 15, 2012)

This guy just owned the Tsunade fan base in the first 5 minutes of this 20 minute segment. 

Kakashi should be Hokage 

Although, I feel as if Tsunade will get a major power-up, otherwise she is heavily over-matched against Madara. And the odds are it'll be a Slug Sage Mode, if this happens, it would even out the playing field for her.

I agree with him, she's fairly limited in what she is able to do now fighting wise, but all other aspects of her (backstory and etc) were great.


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## Falconandeagle (May 15, 2012)

Anywho Sawyer7Mage does awesome manga reviews on Youtube and he is someone I subscribe to. The dude also does Legend Of Korra reviews.


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## αce (May 15, 2012)

He makes a good point with the Sasuke scenario.
Any reasonable person would've put an execution order on Sasuke. Especially considering how Itachi and Madara turned out after they left.



> Does this guy even realize he's spelt "lightning" wrong



He said in an earlier video that the name was taken. So he took out an n.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 15, 2012)

truth is true


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

I think he was spot on. Tsunade is a weak and ineffective leader and on top of that she isn't all that strong. She is strong for a Jounin, her slug summon is good, but she isn't strong as a Kage. 

Most of the other Kages we have seen have been weak and ineffective as leaders. Hashirama split up the Bijuu, he didn't consolidate Konoha's power which resulted in a lot of problems further down the line. Tobirama didn't trust the Uchiha, so he created the Anbu to watch over the Uchiha which further weakened Konoha's military standing and made more problems down the line. Hiruzen was too soft, he allowed Danzo and Orochimaru too much freedom. Minato basically allowed Hiruzen to keep doing the job Hiruzen wasn't very good at. Tsunade, as the guy said, is too concerned with Naruto's feelings to concern herself with the village's standing. She allows Sasuke to get away despite knowing Orochimaru's intentions. She waits 2.5 years to even so much as lift a finger about it, but at that point it was too late. If Sasuke didn't have his shit together Konoha would be destroyed right now. 

But unlike Tsunade the other Kages are the strongest in the village. There is no argument that somebody like Neji could take on any of the other Kages. That's just embarrassing. And I think that's what separates her from the others. I could understand her being a bad leader if she was strong. Or her being mediocre in combat if she was a good leader. But she simply isn't Hokage material. Jiraiya screwed over the village with his decision not to lead. In my opinion Jiraiya would have been a much better Hokage.


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## Torpedo Titz (May 15, 2012)

KoL is one of the better YouTube anime reviewers. He's funny, makes intelligent points, has a healthy respect for Berserk and One Piece and most of all isn't childish by saying the word ''jizz'' every five seconds, like another popular reviewer does.

I saw the review last night by myself and pretty much agreed with his points. She is a well developed character within the confines of _Naruto_, but falls short of our expectations time and again.


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## lathia (May 15, 2012)

This guy MUST be on this forum. He just must be. :ho


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## Punished Pathos (May 15, 2012)

Such a Bias review... What a bafooon, but he was funny.
Some of the shit he said was off though.
Neji beating Tsunade?!
Fuck outta here, I can't see that happening.
As if Neji could land a blow on Tsunade, as if Tsunade is in the dark about the Hyuga clan's ablities. 
Tsunade may not have any defining moments in battle she is behind the medical Ninjutsu system of the leaf , she had the idea of assigning medics to three man cell. Something which helped the Leaf in past wars. 
Sigh, but whats the point of explaining Tusnade's strengths?
This forum and other likeminded people who review manga are a bunch of narrowminded fools.


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## Jad (May 15, 2012)

lathia said:


> This guy MUST be on this forum. He just must be. :ho



Ahaha, I always think the same thing. Some of these Naruto chapter reviewers are on this forum just hiding xD.


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## Rios (May 15, 2012)

He should have brought the point of her talking too much when she is in no position to back up her words with power, just morality. Nagato cared about morality only when it came from Naruto, Madara cares only about power.


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## G Felon (May 15, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> *Bro this is just him being Comfortable. Dude has Tons of FUNNY! vids etc.*



Saw the review again he's hilarious everything he does kills me 

I'm looking at most of his naruto reviews what he says is so true and so funny, I'm surprised he doesn't have a lot more views


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## Klue (May 15, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> He makes a good point with the Sasuke scenario.
> Any reasonable person would've put an execution order on Sasuke. Especially considering how Itachi and Madara turned out after they left.



Agreed completely.

She hadn't, because she was considerate of Naruto and Sakura's feelings? Are you fuckin' kidding me? 

Dude left the village for someone that tried to destroy it not six weeks earlier. A man she knew was planning to take his body and use it to attempt another invasion.

Don't get me started on the Pain thing. She expected Naruto to - in just one week - grow strong enough to defeat Pain. And without checking on his progress, she immediately sent out an order for his return?

What makes this even more frustrating is the fact that she guest correctly in both instances. But her approach was definitely retarded.

*With that said*, _Tsunade is an outstanding character, extremely powerful (although Kishi doesn't do a good job showing it) and talented as she is beautiful, and one of the brightest warriors of all time._



♠Ace♠ said:


> He said in an earlier video that the name was taken. So he took out an n.



He should have added an "s" to King instead. 

But I don't care - he's the fucking man.


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## BlueDemon (May 15, 2012)

SlayerOfGoku said:


> This guy is hilarious. I like his reviews of the chapters. Watching it now.
> 
> Edit: has to your question, Suu or any other hard core Tsunade fan would tear his argument apart(they always can).
> 
> Edit #2: @ 11:27 did he just say Neji could beat Tsunade?  I have to disagree with him on that.



Haha, yeah.

But I still don?t know what?s sadder: being able to rant for 20 minutes about a fictional character or watching a video where someone rants about a fictional character. (but taking into consideration that I?m procrastinating....yeah xD)


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## WT (May 15, 2012)

People seem to misunderstand that Tsunade is not the offensive type. Her power comes from her knowledge and medical ninjutsu.

She essentially created the Medical Ninja.

Remove that from the war and its all over for that side.


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## bloodyhawk (May 15, 2012)

are you guy's all high or something? am i really the only one who doesn't find this funny at all?


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

White Tiger said:


> People seem to misunderstand that Tsunade is not the offensive type. Her power comes from her knowledge and medical ninjutsu.
> 
> She essentially created the Medical Ninja.
> 
> Remove that from the war and its all over for that side.



I don't see Tobi's side using any medical ninjutsu, looks like they are winning too. 



I'm pretty sure medical ninjutsu amounts to absolutely nothing in front of guys like Madara, Hashirama, Tobi, Minato, Nagato, Naruto, Bee, and Jiraiya. What's medical ninjutsu going to do against a meteor?


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## thepowerofscience (May 15, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> I don't see Tobi's side using any medical ninjutsu, looks like they are winning too.



Tobi's side are Edos, Zetsu's clones, Kabuto and Tobi.
Edos: dead people no need for healing.
Zetsu's clones: they are clones and they are a lot.
Kabuto: can heal himself.
Tobi: land a hit first.
I'm not Tsunade fan but Medical Jutsus are helpful.


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## CrazyAries (May 15, 2012)

I haven't watched the video and doubt that I will.  Is twenty minutes necessary for one to describe why they think a character sucks?  If I had twenty minutes, that might even too much for me to critique an entire series. 



Klue said:


> ♠Ace♠ said:
> 
> 
> > He makes a good point with the Sasuke scenario.
> ...


I consider Tsunade's handling of the Sasuke situation to be behind her biggest missteps.  It may turn out to be the right gamble, but I have liked how considerate she was of Naruto's feelings.  She had faith enough in him to search for Sasuke the first time (and I don't have a problem with this in particular).  She allowed Naruto to assemble a team to go to Orochimaru's hideout in Part 2 ().The mission to find Itachi was entirely fruitless and it could have been dangerous if Itachi was serious and intended to take Naruto.  The move to issue an order on Sasuke would have been window dressing with respect to the plot and it would not have stopped Naruto from worrying about him.  However, the solid stance on Tsuade's part would have allowed her to exert her authority and perhaps would have given Naruto the opportunity to find creative ways to keep tabs on his wayward teammate.  Just a simple move like that could have gone a long way.


When it comes to Pain's invasion, I don't disagree with her decision there.  There was basically no one else in the village at the time that could have dealt with that threat and Naruto had the best chance.

Also, the fact of the matter is that Nagato made a few missteps as well.  Instead of talking to Tsunade, he could have taken her out.  That would have precluded her from keeping as many villagers alive as she did and collecting information via Katsuyu.  Nagato was savoring the moment during his onslaught and his use of Chou Shinra Tensei put Deva Path out of commission for a few minutes, making it easier for Naruto to take out the other Pain bodies.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

thepowerofscience said:


> Tobi's side are Edos, Zetsu's clones, Kabuto and Tobi.
> Edos: dead people no need for healing.
> Zetsu's clones: they are clones and they are a lot.
> Kabuto: can heal himself.
> ...



They are helpful but they aren't necessary. A powerhouse is what's necessary.

This may be my bias, but these are people who are taught the location of vitals as children. If they don't want to kill you than you don't matter. If they do than medical ninjutsu isn't going to help.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 15, 2012)

Moku-Ton bitch.

Good stuff.


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## ch1p (May 15, 2012)

I knew about this guy due to Klue's signature. 

I really like to watch (good) Let's Play, but I only found this funny Naruto reviewer until now. Does anyone have more?


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (May 15, 2012)

I don't mean to sound racist but why are all the black Naruto reviewers on youtube really....dumb.


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## Syxaxis (May 15, 2012)

Chaos Ninja of the Leaf said:


> I don't mean to sound racist but why are all the black Naruto reviewers on youtube really....dumb.


You just don't know Soldierknowsbest.


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## Torpedo Titz (May 15, 2012)

Chaos Ninja of the Leaf said:


> I don't mean to sound racist but why are all the black Naruto reviewers on youtube really....dumb.



Uberhikari.

/thread.

And no, there's a large amount of white reviewers, Hispanic reviews or Asian-American reviews who're equally thick.


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## Namikaze Minato (May 15, 2012)

Melodie said:


> Pathetic review. not worth refuting his points as he's clearly one of the many haters (oh yeah, I did watch it). Can't disagree that he's funny on other reviews, though.​



No it's not , that guy speaks the truth and brings up legitimate points to back up his claims.

learn to deal with it since you're a Tsunade Fan.


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## principito (May 15, 2012)

He is kind of exagerating but he tells the truth

Good character and good backsotory
bad leader heavily inflienced by many
average fighter at best (she's good but pretty bad compared to top tiers)
good medic
and yeah, its incredible she's got a fanbase


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## Jad (May 15, 2012)

If she had a stronger body, she'd be one step away form being the Hulk. Perhaps a new jutus that thickens her body?


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## principito (May 15, 2012)

Jad said:


> If she had a stronger body, she'd be one step away form being the Hulk. Perhaps a new jutus that thickens her body?



No, she also needs to be faster....

as it is.... she has no long-range attacks

and pun ching hard just wont do it.... she needs to have some long-range attacks to open a window or be incredibly fast to get past the opponents attacks....

But then she'd just be Gai with medical jutsu


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## lazer (May 15, 2012)

what do you expect? tsuade didn't even want to b hokage in the first place.


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## SaskeKun (May 15, 2012)

That guy is just so fucking hilarious! but he's right.


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## Bitty (May 15, 2012)

no tsunade hate but all ima say is.....

Kakashi>tsunade


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## raizen28 (May 15, 2012)

*Haha I guess a tsunade fan brought my thread back to 4-stars HA! but anyway yeah KOL did make points despite the Vid's Title*


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## Ch1pp (May 15, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> And I would be inclined to agree with that were it not for the fact that these people live in a magical universe where everyone and their mom has the ability to sense greatness in someone else. Naruto is the Child of Prophecy, destined to save the world from destruction. Any Kage who's not going out of their way to keep Naruto loyal to the village is not doing a very good job. Danzō tried it, and now he's dead. Just going against Naruto, the main character, goes against what constitutes a "good" character in this story.



That child of prophecy thing is not the reason tsunade goes out of her way to break the rules for naruto. 

What did danzo try?


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## DeK3iDE (May 15, 2012)

White Tiger said:


> People seem to misunderstand that Tsunade is not the offensive type. Her power comes from her knowledge and medical ninjutsu.
> 
> *She essentially created the Medical Ninja.*
> Remove that from the war and its all over for that side.


Wrong dude. From Madara's accounts of Hashirama's powers besides that of Mokuton he had the ability to heal himself and even said her ability to heal was nothing compared to her granddad's. Therefore Hashirama was either the very first med ninja or among others in those days. The only thing Tsunade did was come up with the idea for there to be a medical ninja corps

The thing is her fans/defenders try to insist that her medical power somehow equivocates to her being a better fighter than others or somehow it's why she's deserving of being the Hokage and the thing is that it's been proven otherwise constantly. Especially when it comes to her decision-making


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (May 15, 2012)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> Wrong dude. From Madara's accounts of Hashirama's powers besides that of Mokuton he had the ability to heal himself and even said her ability to heal was nothing compared to her granddad's. Therefore Hashirama was either the very first med ninja or among others in those days. The only thing Tsunade did was come up with the idea for there to be a medical ninja corps
> 
> The thing is her fans/defenders try to insist that her medical power somehow equivocates to her being a better fighter than others or somehow it's why she's deserving of being the Hokage and the thing is that it's been proven otherwise constantly. Especially when it comes to her decision-making



Actually no. Medical ninjutsu can be used on other people as well. But Hashi's tech was only for him. Further more, Madara stated Tsunade now has the same tech as hashi.


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## thepowerofscience (May 15, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> They are helpful but they aren't necessary. A powerhouse is what's necessary.
> 
> This may be my bias, but these are people who are taught the location of vitals as children. If they don't want to kill you than you don't matter. If they do than medical ninjutsu isn't going to help.



So by your logic if someone isn't a powerhouse it's OK if he died since he cannot defend himself or it's better if they don't fight from the start, Top shinobies are few and the most of the army are average or weak shinobies so you need to heal them if the get wounded.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

thepowerofscience said:


> So by your logic if someone isn't a powerhouse it's OK if he died since he cannot defend himself or it's better if they don't fight from the start, Top shinobies are few and the most of the army are average or weak shinobies so you need to heal them if the get wounded.



Indeed, it is better for weak shinobi to know their limits and never challenge an opponent they don't stand a chance against. I think the Sasuke vs. Fodder aftermath made that rather clear. They couldn't so much as dirty his clothes. He wasn't showing any signs of fatigue either. An army completely destroyed by a single shinobi. 

Look at Deidara vs. Suna, an entire village couldn't do anything to stop their Kage from being kidnapped by a single shinobi.

Look at Pain + Konan vs. Konoha, just about the entire village was wiped out by Pain. Tsunade could do absolutely nothing to stop Pain, and without a powerhouse like Naruto coming in to save the day the death toll would have been catastrophic. On top of that what was Konoha able to do for Naruto? Relay the information Kakashi paid for with his life and that's it, they were basically worthless.


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## DeK3iDE (May 15, 2012)

Chaos Ninja of the Leaf said:


> Actually no. Medical ninjutsu can be used on other people as well. But Hashi's tech was only for him. Further more, Madara stated Tsunade now has the same tech as hashi.


I didn't say Hashirama could heal others. I was saying since Hashirama had medical jutsu Tsunade was definitely not the 1st medical ninja nor did she "invent" it 





> Look at Deidara vs. Suna, an entire village couldn't do anything to stop their Kage from being kidnapped by a single shinobi.
> 
> Look at Pain + Konan vs. Konoha, just about the entire village was wiped out by Pain. Tsunade could do absolutely nothing to stop Pain, and without a powerhouse like Naruto coming in to save the day the death toll would have been catastrophic. On top of that what was Konoha able to do for Naruto? Relay the information Kakashi paid for with his life and that's it, they were basically worthless.


imo that's really bad comparison to make because Deidara and Gaara fought entirely in the air. Deva Path didn't levitate but once to do 1 thing. Big diff. Tsunade just spent the rest of the time talking at him when she should've been doing _something_. If she died trying then tough titty, that's what she signed up for when she accepted the position of Hokage

Back on what happened in Suna Gaara didn't waste time talking at Deidara when he saw him. He got to tcb. My point is that if she couldn't do a decent enough job protecting the place and the civilians wtf did she accept that responsibility to begin with? And it especially goes because she's not even the strongest person there. It's no surprise that a number of civilians have already lost faith in her ability to protect them and their livelihoods


----------



## bleakwinter (May 15, 2012)

So Tsunade sucks because she's actually a humanistic character that has flaws, imperfections, and is not just a walking Mary Sue whose perfect in every way and always knows the right answer? (i.e Itachi,  Kakashi, Madara, Naruto)

She's one of the very few characters whose attitude/actions doesn't make me roll my eyes at how cheesy it is. IMO, one of the very few characters who was actually well-designed (At least compared to typical Shounen characters)


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 15, 2012)

If kishi kept Neji relevant he might of had a shot of taking out tsunade but at this point Neji is fodder, and tsunade glorified fodder.

A shame really Neji is Boss just like Shino, and back in part 1 strong to.


----------



## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> So Tsunade sucks because she's actually a humanistic character that has flaws, imperfections, and is not just a walking Mary Sue whose perfect in every way and always knows the right answer? (i.e Itachi,  Kakashi, Madara, Naruto)
> 
> She's one of the very few characters whose attitude/actions doesn't make me roll my eyes at how cheesy it is.



You don't want a person with flaws and imperfections in a leadership position. You want a person who is as close to being perfect as it is possible. 

I think that people would be a lot more supportive of her if she was either strong or a good leader. But she is neither, and the large breasts she needs to projects as an illusion simply highlight her insecurity. Look at what Itachi just said in the latest chapter. Those who don't acknowledge themselves will ultimately fail, and Tsunade seems to be clinging to her past self.


----------



## DeK3iDE (May 15, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> So Tsunade sucks because she's actually a humanistic character that has flaws, imperfections, and is not just a walking Mary Sue whose perfect in every way and always knows the right answer? (i.e Itachi,  Kakashi, Madara, Naruto)


You totally missed the point the dude was making. His point was that the situation in P1 being what it was, she doesn't have the ability a Kage needs  and she doesn't make decisions in regards to what's good for the village as opposed to making decisions based on her emotional investments in Naruto and Sakura 





> I think that people would be a lot more supportive of her if she was either strong or a good leader. But she is neither, and the large breasts she needs to projects as an illusion simply highlight her insecurity. Look at what Itachi just said in the latest chapter. Those who don't acknowledge themselves will ultimately fail, and Tsunade seems to be clinging to her past self.


Pretty much this


----------



## Delicious (May 15, 2012)

Nailed it


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 15, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> You don't want a person with flaws and imperfections in a leadership position. You want a person who is as close to being perfect as it is possible.
> 
> I think that people would be a lot more supportive of her if she was either strong or a good leader. But she is neither, and the large breasts she needs to projects as an illusion simply highlight her insecurity. Look at what Itachi just said in the latest chapter. Those who don't acknowledge themselves will ultimately fail, and Tsunade seems to be clinging to her past self.



Why would we listen to Itachi?


----------



## Zenith (May 15, 2012)

This guy is so passionate.If only I put half his passion into getting my degree I would have done it in 3 years instead of 5

Oh the lulz 

The part where he says "does she even have fans?" or something like that was just priceless

it's as if he can't compute the fact she has a fanbase

Btw also check out his "Madara is God" review

If you feel this is heated,then imagine him describing this



Jeαnne said:


> klue loves this guy
> 
> edit: 20 MINUTES!



Would you appreciate it better if it was Sakura instead? 


*Spoiler*: __ 










raizen28 said:


> HAHAHAHHAHA the Neji Wank. Wish that hardcore Neji member was here


_
Ninpo Kuchiyose no Jutsu: Furobodiburo_

You just made me remember of his Neji and his ubiquitous striking force


----------



## bleakwinter (May 15, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> You don't want a person with flaws and imperfections in a leadership position. You want a person who is as close to being perfect as it is possible.


All leaders have flaws and imperfections. No one is perfect or is even close to being perfect. You need to understand that no matter what decision a leader makes, it will always be scene as "bad" in someone else's eyes. 




> I think that people would be a lot more supportive of her if she was either strong or a good leader. But she is neither, and the large breasts she needs to projects as an illusion simply highlight her insecurity.



1) She is strong. In terms of combat, maybe three people out of the entire leaf village could defeat her (Kakashi, Gai and Naruto).

2) She is a good leader because she put the village before herself. Instead of trying to fight Pain head, she chose to heal the village. Realistically, the entire village would've died to that Shinra Tensei if any other Kage was in power. 




> Look at what Itachi just said in the latest chapter. Those who don't acknowledge themselves will ultimately fail, and Tsunade seems to be clinging to her past self.



So just because it came out of Itachi's mouth that makes it true? This goes exactly back to my point of Itachi being the epitome of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu type of character. Kishimoto tries to make him a perfect, "know-it-all" and that is what makes him a poorly designed character. 

Also, how is she clinging to her past self? Her past self was a heavy drinker, a gambler, a pessimist, and someone who didn't care about the village at all. She's the exact opposite now



Big Bad Wolf said:


> You totally missed the point the dude was making. His point was that the situation in P1 being what it was, she doesn't have the ability a Kage needs  and she doesn't make decisions in regards to what's good for the village as opposed to making decisions based on her emotional investments in Naruto and Sakura



Hiruzen Sarutobi let Orochimaru live uinstead of killing him when he had the chance. Not only that but he was physically unfit to even fight to the best of his ability. Yet Tsunade is the one who makes bad decisions?


----------



## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> All leaders have flaws and imperfections. No one is perfect or is even close to being perfect. You need to understand that no matter what decision a leader makes, it will always be scene as "bad" in someone else's eyes.



Yes nobody is perfect, but I don't see any alcoholics with gambling problems leading large military organizations. She has too many flaws and imperfections for the position she is in. 

To her credit she seems to have gotten rid of those problems, but I still think there are several people who would be better suited for the position. 



> 1) She is strong. In terms of combat, maybe three people out of the entire leaf village could defeat her (Kakashi, Gai and Naruto).
> 
> 2) She is a good leader because she put the village before herself. Instead of trying to fight Pain head, she chose to heal the village. Realistically, the entire village would've died to that Shinra Tensei if any other Kage was in power.



1) That's at the very least two too many, and it is arguable that there are more people in the village who could be stronger than her. I'm thinking about the heads of the houses. 

2) No she didn't. When there was a realistic threat of the Rain village retaliating immediately after Jiraiya's attack she took a day off to drink, cry, and feel sorry for herself. When she had a chance to negotiate with Pain she got hotheaded and pissed him off. You can watch the video for more mistakes she made. 



> Also, how is she clinging to her past self? Her past self was a heavy drinker, a gambler, a pessimist, and someone who didn't care about the village at all. She's the exact opposite now



She was clinging on to her past before she any of those things. She is still stuck being the Slug Princes who needs her knight in shining armor to save her.

Sannin fight, Jiraiya + Naruto.
Pain's invasion, Naruto.
Current war, Itachi + Sasuke.


----------



## Abanikochan (May 15, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Yes nobody is perfect, but I don't see any alcoholics with gambling problems leading large military organizations. She has too many flaws and imperfections for the position she is in.



Like military leaders/political figureheads in real life don't have these problems.


----------



## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

Abanikochan said:


> Like military leaders/political figureheads in real life don't have these problems.



Care to drop a few names?


----------



## Abanikochan (May 15, 2012)

Lots of US presidents have had drug/alcohol/sex/gambling issues during their terms. It's easier to list those who have than than those who haven't.


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 15, 2012)

Abanikochan said:


> Lots of US presidents have had drug/alcohol/sex/gambling issues during their terms. It's easier to list those who have than than those who haven't.



Bill Clinton.


----------



## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

Abanikochan said:


> Lots of US presidents have had drug/alcohol/sex/gambling issues during their terms. It's easier to list those who have than than those who haven't.



Give me one alcoholic with a gambling problem.


----------



## Abanikochan (May 15, 2012)

FDR
JFK
Ulysses S Grant
George W Bush
Grover Cleveland
etc.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

Abanikochan said:


> FDR
> JFK
> Ulysses S Grant
> George W Bush
> ...



I don't recall anything coming up about George W having issues with alcohol or gambling during his term. But I don't know enough about American presidents to debate you.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 15, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Yes nobody is perfect, but I don't see any alcoholics with gambling problems leading large military organizations. She has too many flaws and imperfections for the position she is in.
> 
> To her credit she seems to have gotten rid of those problems, but I still think there are several people who would be better suited for the position.



She no longer has any of those problems, unlike several world leaders, so this is irrelevant.



> 1) That's at the very least two too many, and it is arguable that there are more people in the village who could be stronger than her. I'm thinking about the heads of the houses.



Are you seriously suggesting that the head clan members are stronger than Tsunade? 

Naruto is the only person in the village stronger than Tsunade.



> 2) No she didn't. When there was a realistic threat of the Rain village retaliating immediately after Jiraiya's attack she took a day off to drink, cry, and feel sorry for herself.



When did Tsunade take a day off to drink, cry, and feel sorry for herself? Did you just make that up to make Tsunade look bad? 

How was there a realistic chance of the Rain village attacking Konoha? It takes a while to move from country to country. 



> When she had a chance to negotiate with Pain she got hotheaded and pissed him off.



He just killed thousands of her people. Was she supposed to be nice?


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 15, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that the head clan members are stronger than Tsunade?
> 
> Naruto is the only person in the village stronger than Tsunade.



I think that you're vastly overestimating Tsunade's ability if you think Naruto is the only one stronger than her in the village. Personally I think the the leaders of the Hyuuga and Abumaru clan are very likely to be stronger. Shikaku is probably stronger due to his vastly superior intellect. Hell I can even see butterfly Chouji taking her on. 



> When did Tsunade take a day off to drink, cry, and feel sorry for herself? Did you just make that up to make Tsunade look bad?
> 
> How was there a realistic chance of the Rain village attacking Konoha? It takes a while to move from country to country.



After Jiraiya died. The rain village is in a small nation which shares a border with the fire nation. Leaving that border unattended was a poor choice in my opinion. 



> He just killed thousands of her people. Was she supposed to be nice?



Yes, whatever it takes to secure the safety of her people.


----------



## LeeUchiha (May 16, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> So Tsunade sucks because she's actually a humanistic character that has flaws, imperfections, and is not just a walking Mary Sue whose perfect in every way and always knows the right answer? (i.e Itachi,  Kakashi, Madara, Naruto)
> 
> She's one of the very few characters whose attitude/actions doesn't make me roll my eyes at how cheesy it is. IMO, one of the very few characters who was actually well-designed (At least compared to typical Shounen characters)



This bears repeating just for the new perspective it offers. Too many powerfans on these forums. The only Kages who could've actually been real people are Tsunade and Hiruzen. Hashirama is really just a plot device, and always has been. Along with his brother, you can't really count him as a character in the series. The only two times we've even seen them they were still just tools of Orochimaru. Minato is always just shy of Sue territory, and his goody two shoes act is boring.

That leaves the other woman Kage- someone defined only by two superpowers and her marriage-phobia, a sterile emotionless desert monk (fuck you Kishimoto give us back the old Gaara), the stereotypical grumpy grandpa Kage, and an angry black man. Let's not even mention the Edo Kages, who clearly are just walking powers. Shells, all of them.

So I'm not really arguing that Tsunade doesn't suck, but it's that all the rest of them suck too for deeper, more important reasons. To single out Tsunade mainly because she doesn't have the absolute greatest haxx power in the world is trite and shallow. Yeah, she has other problems, but at least she's closer to a real person.


----------



## Saunion (May 16, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> So Tsunade sucks because she's actually a humanistic character that has flaws, imperfections, and is not just a walking Mary Sue whose perfect in every way and always knows the right answer? (i.e Itachi,  Kakashi, Madara, Naruto)



I don't see how Tsunade is any more "human" than characters like Kakashi, Madara and Naruto, if for some weird reason you gauge "humanity" by how much someone fails. All of them are pretty big fuckups, easily as much as Tsunade is.

For the record, I like Tsunade, I think she's by far the best vaguely important female character in this manga (granted, that doesn't say much), but this "u haet her becoz she's HUMAN!!!" argument really doesn't work, and there's legitimate reasons to criticize the way Kishimoto portrays her.


----------



## ovanz (May 16, 2012)

Agree with the review.

But damn lolz at how he pronunce some japanese names:


*Spoiler*: __ 



"Hashimama"

"Juraya"?

"Kunochi"

"Hiyuzen"? xd

Miyato






WTF


----------



## Stormcloak (May 16, 2012)

lol he does make good points though


----------



## Syxaxis (May 16, 2012)

KoL is GOD


----------



## Rios (May 16, 2012)

So because some world leaders were corrupt and having bad habits, a fictional Hokage must have them too. Real life people, we can always use it to justify why our character doesnt suck XD


----------



## Barioth (May 16, 2012)

Well there is one thing I agree with his other videos that mentioning the Lost Tower. Ass Cheeks.


----------



## bleakwinter (May 16, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Yes nobody is perfect, but I don't see any alcoholics with gambling problems leading large military organizations.


Then you aren't looking hard enough (if at all). Many of them have done these things in their past. Do you honestly thing being in a position of power exempts them of common human vices?



> She has too many flaws and imperfections for the position she is in.


You could say that about literally any other Kage. (Hiruzen for letting Orochimaru survive, Raikage for trying to kill Naruto, Onoki for hiring the Akatsuki at one point)



> 1) That's at the very least two too many, and it is arguable that there are more people in the village who could be stronger than her. I'm thinking about the heads of the houses.



That's pure speculation. If these clan leader characters were that powerful/important, then Kishimoto would've introduced them as named figures. They would've at least been candidates for the position as well, but they weren't. The candidates for Hokage were Jiraiya (Who declined it), Tsunade, Kakashi (Who declined after Tsunade was comatose), and finally Danzo (Who accepted but died later on). That's Kishimoto basically telling us who was strongest/most fit to be Hokage in that order.



> No she didn't. When there was a realistic threat of the Rain village retaliating immediately after Jiraiya's attack she took a day off to drink, cry, and feel sorry for herself.
> 
> When she had a chance to negotiate with Pain she got hotheaded and pissed him off. You can watch the video for more mistakes she made.


Negotiate with Pain? Let's be real here. The only form of negotiation that Pain would accept would be if she disclosed Naruto's location (Which obviously isn't the right thing to do). Pain *hated* the leaf village. They killed his parents and were the cause of his villages strife. You really think he would accept negotiation? 

Also, pretty much any other Kage would've gotten even more hotheaded at Pain (I shouldn't even have to explain how Onoki and Raikage would've mouthed off even worse to Pain).




> She was clinging on to her past before she any of those things. She is still stuck being the Slug Princes who needs her knight in shining armor to save her.
> 
> Sannin fight, Jiraiya + Naruto.
> Pain's invasion, Naruto.
> Current war, Itachi + Sasuke.



...Really? Pretty much every character has had their life completely saved by someone else. That's hardly an argument. Tsunade was prepared to fight Pain head-on even in her damaged condition, and even stood up to Madara.

What about Sasuke who briefly skirmished with four of the village leaders and was saved 4 times consecutively?

Overall, my main issue with your arguments is that they can factually apply to so many other Naruto characters (Especially the knight in shining armor part), but Tsunade is specifically getting singled out for them.



Saunion said:


> I don't see how Tsunade is any more "human" than characters like Kakashi, Madara and Naruto, if for some weird reason you gauge "humanity" by how much someone fails.





> All of them are pretty big fuckups, easily as much as Tsunade is.



^^^ If that's true, then they should be in that video right alongside Tsunade. Hint: They aren't and that's my main gripe. 



> For the record, I like Tsunade, I think she's by far the best vaguely important female character in this manga (granted, that doesn't say much), but this "u haet her becoz she's HUMAN!!!" argument really doesn't work, and there's legitimate reasons to criticize the way Kishimoto portrays her.



There's legitimate ways to criticize the way Kishimoto portrays everyone because everyone has different opinions based on what constitutes a "good" character. That was simply my own personal opinion.


----------



## spiritmight (May 16, 2012)

I'm sensing some very angry Tsunade fans in this thread.

10/10 review. Totally spot-on.


----------



## bleakwinter (May 16, 2012)

spiritmight said:


> I'm sensing some very angry Tsunade fans in this thread.



Disagreeing = Anger now? Come up with something better next time please.


----------



## Rios (May 16, 2012)

But the thread's sole purpose was to make Tsunade's fans angry. And it succeeded.


----------



## spiritmight (May 16, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> Disagreeing = Anger now? Come up with something better next time please.




Hey, don't lash out at me. Lash out at the guy who made the video


----------



## Melodie (May 16, 2012)

Now, just for the sake of the thread, I'll just leave my opinion towards the reviewers statements and logic, I have watched that video yesterday so There is a chance I might forget few of his statements.



> highly influenced towards Naruto & Sasuke's missing-nin misconception



To be honest, I'm pretty sure that there is no way you want the manga to just make the leader restrain the Biju from leaving the village, ever, and order the villagers to assassinate Sasuke, despite him being the person who's the plot is all about. I mean like really, the plot will end in part I because Sasuke would've already been dead. This is as stupid as Naruto dying in a fight.



> weaker than her predecessors



Indeed, if you look at their hype and all of those things, she is undoubtedly weaker than them, that is without question, true. However, If you want to be the person who's mostly about on-panel feats, She is easily the second strongest hokage. Hashirama's feat as an edo can't do a thing to Tsunade. Tobirama's two water-elemental techniques wouldn't harm Tsunade as one of them is a bit weak and the other one is supplemental. and don't let me get started with Hiruzen. However Minato easily stomps her in feats. So by feats, she is the second strongest hokage.



> Katsuyu being irrelevant



The reviewer here is losing credibility. That slug cannot be killed, have an effective range of mid/long range ninjutsu. could heal. could protect her summoner by every attack by sucking her in. Katsuyu is clearly big factor in Tsunade's arsenal



> Neji



Neji beating Tsunade? Seriously? perhaps if she fights with one finger. even that is doubtful. 



> Guy



An arguable match, however Tsunade holds the advantage. Since it was straight from kishimoto that close-quarter-combat fighters are non-factor in front of Katsuyu



> Kakashi



Can't disagree, if they ever fight it could go either way. But then again Kakashi is a kage material and there are no ninjas in the village that could compete with him.



> her efforts in pain invasion have been negated



Seriously? First of all, Tsunade does not have the ability to predict the future.  and if she didn't heal the villagers, they'd have been dead, and Nagato did not have sufficient chakra to revive all of the villagers.

I have probably missed few, but yeah, I think I covered what I remember.​


----------



## jacamo (May 16, 2012)

King is right, ive said this for ages... Tsunade sucks

i thought the video was pretty funny, but not that funny

this video is way funnier - its shorter and sweeter


----------



## puklica01 (May 16, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> I can't stand American/English people trying to pronounce Japanese names or stuff in general.
> 
> I shall watch it though.



 totaly agree, its killing me ..... 

Anyway im not a big fun of her character, but i wouldnt judge her figting tech. cause we didnt see her in a combat situation yet. (fight against orochimaru - she was just fucked up from the fear, after that she used oro as a punching bag (even itachi couldnt kill orochinmaru he sealed him) fight again pain she was near coma even before any fight could start. And against Madara she was one of the most usable fighters.

But the most important thing first if the story would use the abilities only in considaration then Tsunade and Kabuto would be killing maschines if the can just cut your internal organs like nothing +the ability to regenerate / rebirth would make temporal edo tensei like ability "cannot die" but the story and writer prohibit these  

So you right she didnt show much of fighting skill even if teoretical there could be a lot.


----------



## Devil Child (May 16, 2012)

Rios said:


> But the thread's sole purpose was to make Tsunade's fans angry. And it succeeded.



which is pretty pathetic to be honest.


----------



## ch1p (May 16, 2012)

I'm okay with him being wrong as long as he's funny.


----------



## Ico (May 16, 2012)

LOVE. THIS.
Super funny.

Though he obviously hates Tsunade, he makes great points. Tsunade fans are just using his obvious hate as a way to avoid having to attempt to rebuttal against him.

Please just accept that Tsunade isn't that great.


----------



## Barioth (May 16, 2012)

Ico said:


> LOVE. THIS.
> Super funny.
> 
> Though he obviously hates Tsunade, he makes great points. Tsunade fans are just using his obvious hate as a way to avoid having to attempt to rebuttal against him.
> ...



Hate Tsunade or KoL is one thing. No argument/Insult/Ect.

Disagree because he hate Tsunade is another. Ad Hominem FTW. 

Most likely I think his expectation of Hokage is higher than others. You should watch his Blood Prison Review. Unless you haven't watch it yet. It was hilarious when he mention Lost Towers. Ass Cheeks.


----------



## Maerala (May 16, 2012)

Ico said:


> LOVE. THIS.
> Super funny.
> 
> Though he obviously hates Tsunade, he makes great points. Tsunade fans are just using his obvious hate as a way to avoid having to attempt to rebuttal against him.



Those rebuttals have been made millions of times before when those "points" were brought up here. Nothing he said was even remotely unheard of.



> Please just accept that Tsunade isn't that great.



Who the hell are you to decide what other people find to be great? I think Kabuto's shit, I don't tell you to stop liking him. It's your business, just like liking Tsunade is her fans' business.


----------



## principito (May 16, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Those rebuttals have been made millions of times before when those "points" were brought up here. Nothing he said was even remotely unheard of.



Well... he mentioned its incredible that Tsunade has a fanbase.....

I find that hard to believe too given the fact that she's a secondary character, but hell... Kabuto appears to have a fanbase now





> Who the hell are you to decide what other people find to be great? I think Kabuto's shit, I don't tell you to stop liking him. It's your business, just like liking Tsunade is her fans' business.



Lame people find lame shit amazing... that's true and its everybody's own buz... you are right

Still, people liking shit doesnt make shit good


----------



## Maerala (May 16, 2012)

principito said:


> Well... he mentioned its incredible that Tsunade has a fanbase.....
> 
> I find that hard to believe too given the fact that she's a secondary character, but hell... Kabuto appears to have a fanbase now
> 
> ...



Obvious flamebait aside, it's still no one's business what someone else likes, whatever you think of it. Secondary characters _always_ have fans. Is Neji not a secondary character? Hiruzen? The Second Mizukage? A? Ōnoki? Do you think everyone thinks Minato and Itachi are the greatest thing since sliced bread? It's called diversity; might want to get acquainted with it before you step out into the real world.


----------



## Cjones (May 16, 2012)

Eh, Kishi'll never let Tsunade hit someone unless it's a decisive blow or someone has a counter. Hell, that was the core reason he wrote out her vs Yahiko pain.


----------



## Ico (May 16, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Who the hell are you to decide what other people find to be great? I think Kabuto's shit, I don't tell you to stop liking him. It's your business, just like liking Tsunade is her fans' business.



Well you don't have to worry about that, because I don't like Kabuto as a character. But he can sure be used as a good example right here.

 He's pretty boring overall and his backstory was lame. I only have him as my sig because I find he recent techniques interesting and like his outfit. Not a great character, but he has great techniques. That's a fact. Look at all he's done.

Another fact; there is nothing great about Tsunade. None of her feats are impressive. Unless you have at least one skill that puts you above anyone else in that category, you aren't great. Don't even say healing, because Hashirama did it too, if not better.

People really need to learn to see character for what they are, not what their fan bias lets them see.


----------



## Melodie (May 16, 2012)

Ico said:


> None of her feats are impressive. Unless you have at least one skill that puts you above anyone else in that category, you aren't great. Don't even say healing, because Hashirama did it too, if not better



Tsunade's the strongest character physically, and the best one in the medical category. Hashirama could regenerate from attacks, which Tsunade has exactly the same ability as. but the difference is that he's not a medical ninja, therefore he can't heal other people, etc.

She's the best in two categories. Try again.

And I don't think you're getting GH's point. his point is that everyone's opinion is different, no matter what character you like, there are other people who dislike him/her. he used Kabuto as an example because you're wearing a kabuto set, obviously.​


----------



## Maerala (May 16, 2012)

Ico said:


> Another fact; there is nothing great about Tsunade. None of her feats are impressive. Unless you have at least one skill that puts you above anyone else in that category, you aren't great. Don't even say healing, because Hashirama did it too, if not better.
> 
> *People really need to learn to see character for what they are, not what their fan bias lets them see*.



If you're a fan of a character, then logically you've already seen what that character is and _like_ what you've seen. You don't think Tsunade's ever done anything great or that she has any special skills; that's your business, however wrong you may be. You can wonder all you want about how in the world she ever came to have a fanbase and express any argument you want in favor of your viewpoint, but don't go around telling people what they can or can't find great, it's very egoistic.



Melodie said:


> Tsunade's the strongest character physically, and the best one in the medical category. Hashirama could regenerate from attacks, which Tsunade has exactly the same ability as. but the difference is that he's not a medical ninja, therefore he can't heal other people, etc.
> 
> She's the best in two categories. Try again.
> 
> And I don't think you're getting GH's point. his point is that everyone's opinion is different, no matter what character you like, there are other people who dislike him/her. he used Kabuto as an example because you're wearing a kabuto set, obviously.​


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## spiritmight (May 16, 2012)

Melodie said:


> Tsunade's the strongest character physically​



Easily contested by Naruto and probably Chouji



Melodie said:


> Hashirama could regenerate from attacks, which Tsunade has exactly the same ability as. but the difference is that he's not a medical ninja, therefore he can't heal other people, etc.
> ​




It was never, EVER implied that Hashirama could only heal himself. Quite the opposite, actually. 

EVEN IF that were the case, did we not see where Madara shits on Tsunade and states that her ability to regenerate absolutely pales when compared to her grandfather's? 

How can anyone be the best at something if they've been confronted by a guy who used to hang out with someone who did it better?


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## principito (May 16, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Obvious flamebait aside, it's still no one's business what someone else likes, whatever you think of it. Secondary characters _always_ have fans. Is Neji not a secondary character? Hiruzen? The Second Mizukage? A? Ōnoki? Do you think everyone thinks Minato and Itachi are the greatest thing since sliced bread? It's called diversity; might want to get acquainted with it before you step out into the real world.



Hey, i love diversity and all.... i appreciate people liking whatever they want..... but.....



Melodie said:


> *Tsunade's the strongest character physically, and the best one in the medical category.* Hashirama could regenerate from attacks, which Tsunade has exactly the same ability as. but the difference is that he's not a medical ninja, therefore he can't heal other people, etc.​




chouji eats more than anybody....
the point is that some abilities/skills..... you could be the best but means shit



> She's the best in two categories. Try again.
> 
> And I don't think you're getting GH's point. *his point is that everyone's opinion is different, no matter what character you like, there are other people who dislike him/her.* he used Kabuto as an example because you're wearing a kabuto set, obviously.


​
its not about people liking Tsunade or not....

Its about people liking Tsunade thinking she's good when she's blantly not

My fav character... Gaara... as a character I think he fucking rocks and sometimes I think of matchups and cleary favour him unconcieously..... But I dont think hes top tier or the best Kage.....

Tsunade is average tier AT BEST..... that's the point..... not her fans or fanbase.


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## Maerala (May 16, 2012)

principito said:


> Hey, i love diversity and all.... i appreciate people liking whatever they want..... but.....
> 
> chouji eats more than anybody....
> the point is that some abilities/skills..... you could be the best but means shit
> ...



Though Tsunade is still the strongest character physically in base, strength aside, she's still, currently, the world's greatest medical-nin. And until it's proven that, aside from being able to regenerate himself, Hashirama could heal other people and had knowledge of biology and actual medicine and could apply it in an operation room (like Tsunade did to heal Lee), the same applies for the past.

How does that mean "shit"? It won Konoha a war 30 years ago.



> Its about people liking Tsunade thinking she's good when she's blantly not



Why do you get to decide that? What makes your opinion more correct than anybody else's? Learn to accept that people might actually disagree with you.


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## bleakwinter (May 16, 2012)

Ico said:


> Well you don't have to worry about that, because I don't like Kabuto as a character. But he can sure be used as a good example right here.
> 
> He's pretty boring overall and his backstory was lame. I only have him as my sig because I find he recent techniques interesting and like his outfit. Not a great character, but he has great techniques. That's a fact. Look at all he's done.


...Except nothing in the above statement is a "fact", so it would be nice if you didn't refer to it as such. All you're doing is stating your opinion of Kabuto based on evidence in the manga that you believe supports it. Nothing more and nothing less. Believe me when I say there's many people out there who believe Kabuto is a terrible character, and can probably debate that topic using Manga evidence just as well, if not better, than you can. 



> Another fact; there is nothing great about Tsunade. None of her feats are impressive. Unless you have at least one skill that puts you above anyone else in that category, you aren't great.


All you did in that post was basically say "My personal opinion of Tsunade is a fact", which it most certainly isn't. The word "impressive" is 100% entirely (Which is why God is the most impressive entity in some people's eyes, whereas he doesn't even exist in the eyes of others). 

Also, has it ever occurred to you that not everyone likes/dislikes a character based off of their battle-feats? I've said this in an earlier post, not everyone who enjoys this manga is a power-hog who simply fancies the stronger characters. I like Tsunade because of her personality is very realistic in my eyes, coupled with the fact that she can be 'strong' without being overpowered.



> Don't even say healing, because Hashirama did it too, if not better.


So just because someone does it better, that instantly makes the feat in question unimpressive? I guess Sasuke, Itachi, and Nagato are all unimpressive since Uchiha Madara's abilities encompass all of theirs and can go beyond as well...



> People really need to learn to see character for what they are, not what their fan bias lets them see.



Seeing a character for what they are? Then ideally the characters are nothing more than ink on paper written by some man. The thing is, everyone has their own interpretation of what they see, which you seem to be undermining based on what you believe are facts.

Even if you believe Tsunade-fans are biased (Everyone is biased to an extent FYI), in this thread specifically, we seem to be the only one supporting our arguments with manga evidence, while many others in this thread simply resort to ad-hominem insults (ex. tsunade fans r so mad lolz).


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## Melodie (May 16, 2012)

spiritmight said:


> Easily contested by Naruto



I guess you're talking about Sage mode's naruto lifting the Rhino. Tsunade could easily do that, without any questions. As we have seen when he punched one of the paths, it wasn't as significant as Tsunade's punches.




> It was never, EVER implied that Hashirama could only heal himself. Quite the opposite, actually



It was never implied that he's a medical ninja, however it was implied that he could heal himself without any hand-seals. Again, It doesn't change the fact that Tsunade is better in the medical category. She did show the ability that Madara hyped Hashirama about. and she have showed that she could use it to other people as well as use it offensively. You can't just imply that Hashirama is better than Tsunade in the medical category.



			
				 principito said:
			
		

> chouji eats more than anybody....
> the point is that some abilities/skills..... you could be the best but means shit



Are you really comparing eating to being the best medical ninja and the strongest person physically? I shouldn't take you seriously.



> Its about people liking Tsunade thinking she's good when she's blantly not



That is, of course, your opinion.



> My fav character... Gaara... as a character I think he fucking rocks and sometimes I think of matchups and cleary favour him unconcieously..... But I dont think hes top tier or the best Kage.....



I could apply the same thing to Tsunade. She's my favourite. I like her personality, I support her in matchups, etc. However, I could easily tell that she can't match-up against Kages like Ooinki And Ei.​


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## raizen28 (May 16, 2012)

Melodie said:


> I guess you're talking about Sage mode's naruto lifting the Rhino. Tsunade could easily do that, without any questions. As we have seen when he punched one of the paths, it wasn't as significant as Tsunade's punches.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. Haha the negs. but anyway

@Melodie
Gaara would give Tsunade a Great fight too dont you think


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## spiritmight (May 16, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> Wow. Haha the negs. but anyway





Who actually negged you for posting a Youtube video?


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## Torpedo Titz (May 16, 2012)

Fans who cannot accept the truth.


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## raizen28 (May 16, 2012)

spiritmight said:


> Who actually negged you for posting a Youtube video?


well I dont wanna call out names. but its cool. what are you gonna expect if someone's offended HA! they probably didnt even look at the vid and just seen the Title. Its a reason the Thread Title has the "Does He MAke Good Points" in it.


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## Naruto Fighto (May 16, 2012)

I really like Tsunade but Kishi should have gave her more feats. But tanking a Susano blade and fighting Madara head on was impressive.                                                                  

Still she comes off more as a brute than as a cerebral type of ninja which is not something you'd expect considering she is a medical ninja and her intelligence was hyped. I expected more creative moves and tricks from her, not just brute force your way through. But that is good also I guess.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 16, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> Then you aren't looking hard enough (if at all). Many of them have done these things in their past. Do you honestly thing being in a position of power exempts them of common human vices?



Do you see a single Kage besides Tsunade with those problems?



> You could say that about literally any other Kage. (Hiruzen for letting Orochimaru survive, Raikage for trying to kill Naruto, Onoki for hiring the Akatsuki at one point)



No you can't, and that's the problem for Tsunade. Raikage and Onoki were in the right, they were doing what was best for their villages which is their job. 



> That's pure speculation. If these clan leader characters were that powerful/important, then Kishimoto would've introduced them as named figures. They would've at least been candidates for the position as well, but they weren't. The candidates for Hokage were Jiraiya (Who declined it), Tsunade, Kakashi (Who declined after Tsunade was comatose), and finally Danzo (Who accepted but died later on). That's Kishimoto basically telling us who was strongest/most fit to be Hokage in that order.



Tsunade simply isn't that strong, so it's fair to speculate that she could be beaten by some of the more powerful members of the village. Personally I don't see a way she could counter Shino's bugs or Neji's Jyuuken. 



> Negotiate with Pain? Let's be real here. The only form of negotiation that Pain would accept would be if she disclosed Naruto's location (Which obviously isn't the right thing to do). Pain *hated* the leaf village. They killed his parents and were the cause of his villages strife. You really think he would accept negotiation?



What's so bad about disclosing his location? He is at the frog mountain which is at an undisclosed location. 



> Also, pretty much any other Kage would've gotten even more hotheaded at Pain (I shouldn't even have to explain how Onoki and Raikage would've mouthed off even worse to Pain).



The difference between them and her is that they could actually fight Pain. 



> ...Really? Pretty much every character has had their life completely saved by someone else. That's hardly an argument. Tsunade was prepared to fight Pain head-on even in her damaged condition, and even stood up to Madara.



The other characters don't carry the title of Hokage. Look at Hiruzen and Minato, they both chose to fight on their own against the leader of the enemy. Tsunade simply can't do that, she isn't strong enough. 



> What about Sasuke who briefly skirmished with four of the village leaders and was saved 4 times consecutively?



Sasuke isn't a Hokage. He is 16. 



> Overall, my main issue with your arguments is that they can factually apply to so many other Naruto characters (Especially the knight in shining armor part), but Tsunade is specifically getting singled out for them.



Because she is the only Hokage who consistently needs to be saved time after time.


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## Barioth (May 17, 2012)

Melodie said:


> Tsunade's the strongest character physically, and the best one in the medical category. Hashirama could regenerate from attacks, which Tsunade has exactly the same ability as. but the difference is that he's not a medical ninja, therefore he can't heal other people, etc.
> 
> She's the best in two categories. Try again.
> 
> And I don't think you're getting GH's point. *his point is that everyone's opinion is different, no matter what character you like, there are other people who dislike him/her. *he used Kabuto as an example because you're wearing a kabuto set, obviously.​



To be honest if that is use in any argument. I will claim you a cop out. Even I realize that in my argument.


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## jacamo (May 17, 2012)

Kings video actually had really good points as to why Tsunade sucks - especially in terms leadership and in combat... Tsunade fans are just mad their favourite character got undressed like that

the truth hurts sometimes

remember all the times when her fans kept saying "Tsunade will show us something BIG very soon" or "wait for next chapter"

painfully hilarious


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (May 17, 2012)

think ill watch this video, i was too lazy to before


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## Melodie (May 17, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> @Melodie
> Gaara would give Tsunade a Great fight too dont you think



Indeed, In fact, He'd win. I don't have to list every character who I believe could win against Tsunade, so I gave two examples of the current the five kages.



Darkstar said:


> Fans who cannot accept the truth.



If what the reviewer saying is the truth, I feel bad for humanity. 



Anar G said:


> To be honest if that is use in any argument. I will claim you a cop out. Even I realize that in my argument.



Look at Ico's quote before replying to me. He did state that the fans should stop thinking that Tsunade's great. I mean, Who the hell do you think you are to suggest what people should think is/are great or not? I believe that there are few character who're crap, which also has a fanbase. Am I supposed to tell them to stop thinking that the character is great just because I dislike the character?
​


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## Ryuzaki (May 17, 2012)

Truthfully, he's speaking from a manga pov, so I'm not blaming him because Tsunade's performance has been sub-par compared to every kage before her. I wouldn't rank her past any of the current hokage, but that doesn't equate to her being weak. Aside from Kakashi (one of whom is more than worthy enough to replace her) and perhaps Gai, I don't really see anyone beating her in 1 vs. 1 fight either.

Even while other Hokages were alive, there were formidable shinobi that could've replaced then Hokages and it wouldn't have made much of a difference. For instance when the 3rd Hokage was alive, Jiraiya could have taken the mantle without a problem but chose not to. I'm sure he'd have stomped the third hokage as well. 

One of major problems I have with his assertions deals with the fact that he blows out of proportion her lack of ninjutsu prowess and lack of actual battle techniques in general while grossly oversimplifying her healing abilities. Tsunade's Byakagou can actually be an excellent method to bait an opponent to drop their guard, just like Madara did.

I'm not saying that she's stronger than her predecessors but she's not weak by any means. Kakashi is probably stronger than her but that's a given as he's always been looked at in that light, at least for the last 220 chapters though.


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## Barioth (May 17, 2012)

Melodie said:


> Look at Ico's quote before replying to me. He did state that the fans should stop thinking that Tsunade's great. I mean, Who the hell do you think you are to suggest what people should think is/are great or not? I believe that there are few character who're crap, which also has a fanbase. Am I supposed to tell them to stop thinking that the character is great just because I dislike the character?
> ​



 

This is where I have to be critical to you now. Although the quote is from your post. You yourself say that was Godaime Hokage's points. So my claim will go against Godaime Hokage not you. 

The only wrong on your behalf is the first and last sentence. 

Ico's quote is irrelevant to my statement. 

The last sentence imply supports Ico's claim but goes against your claim. 

You see the thing is Ico's Quote is irrelevant towards me.

Although trivia but I will point out anyway. Never tell someone to look twice on different area before reply. In this case you are telling me to look at Ico's quote. Again irrelevant to me.


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

Anar G said:


> This is where I have to be critical to you now. Although the quote is from your post. You yourself say that was Godaime Hokage's points. So my claim will go against Godaime Hokage not you.
> 
> The only wrong on your behalf is the first and last sentence.
> 
> ...



While I try to figure out what you're getting at, I will clarify that I told Ico that he is, of course, more than welcome to make any claim about Tsunade's character that he feels is correct. It's his opinion and he has a right to have it and express it. What I won't stand for is people telling me what characters I should and should not like because of what _they_ think about that character. You don't just walk up to people and tell them to stop liking vanilla ice cream because _you_ think it's shit.


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## DeK3iDE (May 17, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> All leaders have flaws and imperfections. No one is perfect or is even close to being perfect. You need to understand that no matter what decision a leader makes, it will always be scene as "bad" in someone else's eyes.
> 
> Also, how is she clinging to her past self? Her past self was a heavy drinker, a gambler, a pessimist, and someone who didn't care about the village at all. She's the exact opposite now


You're still missing the point. It's one thing to have a personality problem, it's another thing entirely when the person makes decisions entirely based on how they feel about 1 or 2 ppl when there is also the safety, concerns, or well-being of everybody else to consider also

She's clinging to her past self in the sense that she still believes being known as a Sannin is that big a deal when a number of things proved that moniker meant very little if it ever did



> Hiruzen Sarutobi let Orochimaru live instead of killing him when he had the chance. Not only that but he was physically unfit to even fight to the best of his ability. Yet Tsunade is the one who makes bad decisions?


Hey, i get on Hiruzen's case for the exact same thing when it comes to Tsunade. In fact, you just showed why it makes her such a bad leader. Using the 1st paragraph of my points above, i'm going to quote myself when i say "it's another thing entirely when the person makes decisions entirely based on how they feel about 1 or 2 ppl when there is also the safety, concerns, or well-being of everybody else to consider also"

Basically she's just been repeating the exact same mistakes Hiruzen did. Instead of putting a hit out on Sasuke like she was supposed to, she gave Naruto and Sakura chance after chance to bring him back even when Sasuke couldn't have made it any clearer to the both of them that he had no intentions of ever being a Konoha-nin again. And the results from that was that Sasuke was allowed to not only eventually become a prime danger to Konoha, but ended up accosting and attacking Bee, who just so happened to be the brother of their enemy village's Kage


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## Shaz (May 17, 2012)

Who cares if Tsunade is great or not, she can just absorb all attacks into her boobs. Maybe a breast reduction to become more agile, haha.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Ryuzaki said:


> One of major problems I have with his assertions deals with the fact that he blows out of proportion her lack of ninjutsu prowess and lack of actual battle techniques in general while grossly oversimplifying her healing abilities. *Tsunade's Byakagou can actually be an excellent method to bait an opponent to drop their guard, just like Madara did.*



When did this happen? As I recall it Madara used a wood clone to have Tsunade drop her guard, not the other way around.


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## principito (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> *Though Tsunade is still the strongest character physically in base, strength aside, she's still, currently, the world's greatest medical-nin.* And until it's proven that, aside from being able to regenerate himself, Hashirama could heal other people and had knowledge of biology and actual medicine and could apply it in an operation room (like Tsunade did to heal Lee), the same applies for the past.
> 
> How does that mean "shit"? It won Konoha a war 30 years ago.



Well Madara SAID that tsunade's medical is nothing compared to Hashirama...... so being the best today is really setting the bar really low dont u think?
and the physically stronger character..... well (next answer)



> Why do you get to decide that? What makes your opinion more correct than anybody else's? Learn to accept that people might actually disagree with you.



If you cant agree that Tsunade is not top tier thats not a matter of opinion... its a matter of bias. We cant disagree in which character is cool or better written, or stuff like that.... but not being able to see Tsunade is NOT TOP TIER is just bias



Melodie said:


> I guess you're talking about Sage mode's naruto lifting the Rhino. Tsunade could easily do that, without any questions. As we have seen when he punched one of the paths, it wasn't as significant as Tsunade's punches.
> 
> It was never implied that he's a medical ninja, however it was implied that he could heal himself without any hand-seals. Again, *It doesn't change the fact that Tsunade is better in the medical category*. She did show the ability that Madara hyped Hashirama about. and she have showed that she could use it to other people as well as use it offensively. *You can't just imply that Hashirama is better than Tsunade in the medical category*.​




Well I couldnt sat she better than Hashirama either. 



> Are you really comparing eating to being the best medical ninja and the strongest person physically? I shouldn't take you seriously.



Well I feel the same when u compmare Tsunades punches to Onoki's dust release or even Madara's metheors.

Tsunade is just a weak fighter that has barely enough to be around that battle without getting herself killed. I mean... she has barely enough fighting skills to carry her own weight.... that's it....

Her medical jutsu.... well.... that's always been a suppor thing.... like backup. Like the weak soldiers in the army that are left behind




> I could apply the same thing to Tsunade. She's my favourite. I like her personality, I support her in matchups, etc. However, I could easily tell that she can't match-up against Kages like Ooinki And Ei.



This would be the first thing we agree on. kudos, we are getting somewhere


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

principito said:


> Well Madara SAID that tsunade's medical is nothing compared to Hashirama...... so being the best today is really setting the bar really low dont u think?
> and the physically stronger character..... well (next answer)



He also said she was a weak woman, and then he corrected himself both when she broke his Susanoo and when she showed what her new technique could do, saying that it was the _same ability_ Hashirama possessed. In light of that, and seeing as we have evidence that Tsunade is an actual doctor, unlike Hashirama, whom for all we know was limited to healing only himself, Tsunade is clearly superior in the field of medicine.



> If you cant agree that Tsunade is not top tier thats not a matter of opinion... its a matter of bias. We cant disagree in which character is cool or better written, or stuff like that.... but not being able to see Tsunade is NOT TOP TIER is just bias



Your words were not "top tier," they were "good," which could've been in reference to anything from her personality to her combat skills.



> Well I couldnt sat she better than Hashirama either.



Despite evidence showing that she is, in terms of medicine. You throw the word "bias" around too lightly. Might want to do some soul-searching.



> Well I feel the same when u compmare Tsunades punches to Onoki's dust release or even Madara's metheors.



What does that have to do with Tsunade being physically stronger than everyone else in base? Strength, unlike eating, is an actual category in the databooks for examining a character's combat prowess.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> What does that have to do with Tsunade being physically stronger than everyone else in base? Strength, unlike eating, is an actual category in the databooks for examining a character's combat prowess.



What about butterfly Chouji and SM Naruto? Aren't they stronger than Tsunade?


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> What about butterfly Chouji and SM Naruto? Aren't they stronger than Tsunade?



I said base. Although I'd argue she's still stronger than SM Naruto physically, as I don't doubt she could easily replicate his strength feats. I do think Chōji is physically stronger than her with his pills, though. I'd have to look at the panels again, but his size is a big advantage.


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## Whirlpool (May 17, 2012)

"He was an old man, an old man!"

Hiruzen


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## principito (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> He also said she was a weak woman, and then he corrected himself both when she broke his Susanoo and when she showed what her new technique could do, saying that it was the _same ability_ Hashirama possessed. In light of that, and seeing as we have evidence that *Tsunade is an actual doctor, unlike Hashirama, whom for all we know was limited to healing only himself,* Tsunade is clearly superior in the field of medicine.
> 
> Despite evidence showing that she is, in terms of medicine. You throw the word *"bias"* around too lightly. Might want to do some soul-searching.



That right there is the BIAS.... assumming for the sake of tsunade's status that Hashirama was not able to heal others? We could assume he did....

And everything aside, my opinion is that he could and our argument aside, since we're talking about THE BEST ninja, i guess my asumption is safer than tours...

but meh, both are assumptions either. So Tsunade could be the best doctor or not.... but even if she was... she's just that... a doctos meant to stay behind the real ninjas.



> What does that have to do with Tsunade being physically stronger than everyone else *in base*? Strength, unlike eating, is an actual category in the databooks for examining a character's combat prowess.





Godaime Hokage said:


> *I said base*. Although I'd argue she's still stronger than SM Naruto physically, as I don't doubt she could easily replicate his strength feats. I do think Chōji is physically stronger than her with his pills, though. I'd have to look at the panels again, but his size is a big advantage.



yeah, so when there's a fight in the manga in which before fighting everybody agrees to stay IN BASE.... it will matter.

Until then, even chiuji is stronget than Tsunade


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

Man, I dont like Hiruzen and his hype. But honestly? He will dance circles around her while systematically frying, drowning and poking her with his big stick. As an old man. AS AN OLD MAN!


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

principito said:


> That right there is the BIAS.... assumming for the sake of tsunade's status that Hashirama was not able to heal others? We could assume he did....
> 
> And everything aside, my opinion is that he could and our argument aside, since we're talking about THE BEST ninja, i guess my asumption is safer than tours...
> 
> but meh, both are assumptions either. So Tsunade could be the best doctor or not.... but even if she was... she's just that... a doctos meant to stay behind the real ninjas.



Logically, he can't do it until he proves he can. Byakugō can only heal Tsunade. Given that Madara said that it was the same ability Hashirama had, logic dictates he could not use it to heal others. Nothing indicates Hashirama ever actually practiced medicine on other people like a real doctor (Tsunade) would. I'm not assuming he doesn't have it, I'm simply waiting for him to prove he does. Something like a "innocent until proven guilty" sort of situation.

And yes, medical-nin are supposed to say behind, but as the fourth rule dictates, if they've mastered Byakugō, they're allowed to fight. :33



> yeah, so when there's a fight in the manga in which before fighting everybody agrees to stay IN BASE.... it will matter.
> 
> Until then, even chiuji is stronget than Tsunade



The point of this argument was that Ico, or whoever initiated it, didn't believe Tsunade had any special skills or was the best at anything. Obviously her prowess in medicine speaks for itself, and seeing as medical ninjutsu is a branch of ninjutsu, and she is the best at it, that argument is negated.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> I said base. Although I'd argue she's still stronger than SM Naruto physically, as I don't doubt she could easily replicate his strength feats. I do think Chōji is physically stronger than her with his pills, though. I'd have to look at the panels again, but his size is a big advantage.



Would you say that she has a none base mode which enhances her abilities? If not I think principito hit the nail on the head with his post, other shinobi won't stay in base simply because Tsunade only has a base mode. 


As it is now she doesn't have enough skill and speed to supplement her strength.  She simply goes after her target like a mad bull. Powerful but at the same time predictable and thus vulnerable. Looking at Lee's fights back in part one, he had a good amount of technique and strategy which made his taijutsu dangerous. If Tsunade's taijutsu or strength isn't even on par with shinobi who couldn't advance to Chuunin level how can you justify her position as the Hokage?


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Would you say that she has a none base mode which enhances her abilities? If not I think principito hit the nail on the head with his post, other shinobi won't stay in base simply because Tsunade only has a base mode.
> 
> As it is now she doesn't have enough skill and speed to supplement her strength.  She simply goes after her target like a mad bull. Powerful but at the same time predictable and thus vulnerable. Looking at Lee's fights back in part one, he had a good amount of technique and strategy which made his taijutsu dangerous. If Tsunade's taijutsu or strength isn't even on par with shinobi who couldn't advance to Chuunin level how can you justify her position as the Hokage?



Not having this or that specific skill doesn't make her weak. She doesn't have A's speed, but she's been by far more effective in the fight against Madara than he has, and has gotten closer than the other four to beating him. I don't need to justify her position as Hokage, I didn't pick her. She was chosen by people like Jiraiya, whose opinion is obviously worth a lot more than yours or anyone else's in this forum, and after years of her rule he still viewed her as more worthy than anyone else to command Konoha.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Not having this or that specific skill doesn't make her weak. She doesn't have A's speed, but she's been by far more effective in the fight against Madara than he has, and has gotten closer than the other four to beating him.



She has gotten closer to being impaled and fooled by Madara than any of the other Kages, but I don't see how you can say that she has been more effective than any of the other Kages. 



> I don't need to justify her position as Hokage, I didn't pick her. She was chosen by people like Jiraiya, whose opinion is obviously worth a lot more than yours or anyone else's in this forum, and after years of her rule he still viewed her as more worthy than anyone else to command Konoha.



For the sake of enjoying this conversation would you mind justifying her position as Hokage?


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> She has gotten closer to being impaled and fooled by Madara than any of the other Kages, but I don't see how you can say that she has been more effective than any of the other Kages.



When I say that, considering how little they've actually achieved, individually or collectively, it obviously doesn't mean much, but where Madara has brushed off everyone else's techniques, absorbed them with the Rinnegan, or blocked them with Susanoo, Tsunade actually managed to break Susanoo and take him by surprise by fooling him into believing she was dead, not to mention the fact that she's healed all of them and replenished their chakra levels so they could actually do something against him. MVP ftw.



> For the sake of enjoying this conversation would you mind justifying her position as Hokage?



You're the one making the claim that she isn't qualified. You are welcome to bring forth your arguments and I'll worry about the rebuttals.


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## Torpedo Titz (May 17, 2012)

Actually, according to the conventions of discussion, people who make positive claims (Tsunade _being_ qualified to be Hokage) are required to provide proof. Not people who make negative claims (Tsunade _not being_ qualified to be Hokage).

.



> ...there is an implicit burden of proof on *the person asserting a claim*.





> If this responsibility or burden of proof is *shifted* to a critic, the *fallacy* of *appealing to ignorance* is committed



  

And you call yourselves debaters, rofl.


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

Darkstar said:


> Actually, according to the conventions of discussion, people who make positive claims (Tsunade _being_ qualified to be Hokage) are required to provide proof. Not people who make negative claims (Tsunade _not being_ qualified to be Hokage).
> 
> .
> 
> ...



Considering that she actually is Hokage, she has already been accepted as someone who is qualified by the characters within the story. If somebody in this forum wants to argue that she _isn't_ qualified for the position, then it's _their _burden to argue why.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> When I say that, considering how little they've actually achieved, individually or collectively, it obviously doesn't mean much, but where Madara has brushed off everyone else's techniques, absorbed them with the Rinnegan, or blocked them with Susanoo, Tsunade actually managed to break Susanoo and take him by surprise by fooling him into believing she was dead, not to mention the fact that she's healed all of them and replenished their chakra levels so they could actually do something against him. MVP ftw.



I won't argue about her abilities as a supporting character, but claiming she has done more than the others seems a bit over the top to me. 

1. The hit on the wood clone, Madara wanted the clone to be hit so that it would create an opening which it did. This is not an accomplishment but a failure for all of the Kages involved. 

2. Before that it took all of the Kages attacking simultaneously to create an opening an break Madara's Susano. 



> You're the one making the claim that she isn't qualified. You are welcome to bring forth your arguments and I'll worry about the rebuttals.



My argument is simply, she isn't strong enough to be the Hokage. There are several shinobi in the village who are definitely stronger than her. And on top of that there are several 16 year olds (Neji, Shino, and Chouji) who could arguably defeat her. 

On top of that she has made several poor decisions as the Hokage. (Please watch the video for further details.)


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## Melodie (May 17, 2012)

Anar G said:


> This is where I have to be critical to you now. Although the quote is from your post. You yourself say that was Godaime Hokage's points. So my claim will go against Godaime Hokage not you.
> 
> The only wrong on your behalf is the first and last sentence.
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 







Is that a reply? Never mind..going to leave this to GH.



TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> When did this happen? As I recall it Madara used a wood clone to have Tsunade drop her guard, not the other way around.



_I suggest you reading the chapter._



principito said:


> Well I couldnt sat she better than Hashirama either.



She has the same regenerating ability as him, and even more. 



> Well I feel the same when u compmare Tsunades punches to Onoki's dust release or even Madara's metheors.



What does this have to do with anything...?



> Tsunade is just a weak fighter that has barely enough to be around that battle without getting herself killed. I mean... she has barely enough fighting skills to carry her own weight.... that's it....



Yeah, We are obviously reading a different manga.






> This would be the first thing we agree on. kudos, we are getting somewhere



Always has been the case.



TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> What about butterfly Chouji and SM Naruto? Aren't they stronger than Tsunade?



No, They're not.



Rios said:


> Man, I dont like Hiruzen and his hype. But honestly? He will dance circles around her while systematically frying, drowning and poking her with his big stick. As an old man. AS AN OLD MAN!



Not sure if quoting the reviewer, but, you're basically saying he's going to dance around someone's who's resilient, semi-immortal, *faster than him*, stronger than him, could easily heal off his attacks, could as well summon katsuyu which wouldn't make Hiruzen even hope to harm her with his summoning.




> That right there is the BIAS.... assumming for the sake of tsunade's status that Hashirama was not able to heal others? We could assume he did...



It was stated that Hashirama could regenerate his wounds without making any hand-seal, however it was not stated that he's a medical ninja. if You're going through assumptions, we might as well assume that Tenten could bring 600 billion exploding tags, Mei has golden byakugam or her hidden eye, Juugo having sage mode, etc. 

Just having the regeneration ability does NOT make him a medical ninja. If that is your logic, we might as well state that the Kyuubi is a medical ninja.

____________​
Not going to reply any further, unless there is something new that should be discussed, or if it is worth it.


EDIT :



> (Neji, Shino, and Chouji)



Yeah, I better stop replying in this thread.​


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Melodie said:


> Indeed, In fact, He'd win. I don't have to list every character who I believe could win against Tsunade, so I gave two examples of the current the five kages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well Yeah. out but out of all the Kage seen so far, How would you rank her?
her standing as hokage has been the lowest of any Official Hokage. So Thats why The Reviewer probably thinks that way. Maybe he's so fed up with a underwhelming performance from Tsunade[although she did have some memorable moments cough cough good or bad]


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> I won't argue about her abilities as a supporting character, but claiming she has done more than the others seems a bit over the top to me.
> 
> 1. The hit on the wood clone, Madara wanted the clone to be hit so that it would create an opening which it did. This is not an accomplishment but a failure for all of the Kages involved.
> 
> 2. Before that it took all of the Kages attacking simultaneously to create an opening an break Madara's Susano.



1. And Tsunade wanted to pretend to be dead to create an opening to attack Madara, which it did. Neither of their openings bore fruit, as Madara's stab didn't kill Tsunade, and Tsunade's stab didn't kill Madara. That alone is more than the other Kage have done, as it actually managed to surprise Madara. It's not much, obviously, but still puts Tsunade above them in terms of contribution to this battle, which the healing had already done.

2. So? They've been working together the entire time. That doesn't make the fact that Tsunade's efforts, both in combat and in support, have put them further ahead in their struggle any less true.



> My argument is simply, she isn't strong enough to be the Hokage. There are several shinobi in the village who are definitely stronger than her. And on top of that there are several 16 year olds (Neji, Shino, and Chouji) who could arguably defeat her.



None of the three you mentioned have a chance against her. What leads you to believe that they would choose her if she couldn't beat even inexperienced shinobi who have abilities she has unlimited knowledge on. We haven't seen much of Tsunade in combat. Jiraiya has; he actually grew up with her, trained with her, and fought alongside her. You claim she's weak. Jiraiya claims she's strong. The rest of the village puts their trust in her and elects her as Hokage. She not only has to be approved by the daimyō and by the Council, but by the entire jōnin body. In what world does the word of NF compete with theirs?



> On top of that she has made several poor decisions as the Hokage. (Please watch the video for further details.)



I've seen the video and his arguments are poor at best. He lacks understanding of the events surrounding Tsunade's decisions and sees nothing beyond the surface.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Darkstar said:


> Actually, according to the conventions of discussion, people who make positive claims (Tsunade _being_ qualified to be Hokage) are required to provide proof. Not people who make negative claims (Tsunade _not being_ qualified to be Hokage).
> 
> .
> 
> ...



In this situation KingOfLightning and I are making the claim that Tsunade is not qualified as the Hokage.


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## Naruto Fighto (May 17, 2012)

I have a feeling that Tsunade gets a lot of hate simply because she is a woman.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> I think that you're vastly overestimating Tsunade's ability if you think Naruto is the only one stronger than her in the village. Personally I think the the leaders of the Hyuuga and Abumaru clan are very likely to be stronger. Shikaku is probably stronger due to his vastly superior intellect. Hell I can even see butterfly Chouji taking her on.



I'm not sure how seriously I can take this conversation. You're telling me that Hiashi, Chouji, and some unnamed Abumara are stronger than Tsunade, and you're telling me I'm misjudging her? 



> After Jiraiya died. The rain village is in a small nation which shares a border with the fire nation. Leaving that border unattended was a poor choice in my opinion.



I'm really thinking that you're trolling now. 

You think Tsunade should have gone to the border with the Rain Village to have kept Pein out? 



> Yes, whatever it takes to secure the safety of her people



Yeah, she clearly should have negotiated with Pein and given him Naruto after he killed thousands of her villagers and had plans to create a super weapon with the Kyuubi to destroy the world with.


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Naruto Fighto said:


> I have a feeling that Tsunade gets a lot of hate simply because she is a woman.


Kishi doesnt know how to portray females as great Leaders like the others. Its all Kishi's fault for all of this


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> 1. And Tsunade wanted to pretend to be dead to create an opening to attack Madara, which it did. Neither of their openings bore fruit, as Madara's stab didn't kill Tsunade, and Tsunade's stab didn't kill Madara. That alone is more than the other Kage have done, as it actually managed to surprise Madara. It's not much, obviously, but still puts Tsunade above them in terms of contribution to this battle, which the healing had already done.



If we judge her battle prowess on her ability to surprise or amuse Madara we're not going to get anywhere. I would also claim that Mei has been much more effective at creating opening than Tsunade has been. 



> 2. So? They've been working together the entire time. That doesn't make the fact that Tsunade's efforts, both in combat and in support, have put them further ahead in their struggle any less true.



How so? How have her efforts put them further ahead, as far as I can tell they have not been able to land a single blow on Madara apart from the ones he allowed them to make. Plus right now they are more disadvantaged than they were at the beginning of the fight. 



> None of the three you mentioned have a chance against her. What leads you to believe that they would choose her if she couldn't beat even inexperienced shinobi who have abilities she has unlimited knowledge on.



Unlimited knowledge? Since when? As far as I can tell she knows little to nothing about the inner working of their techniques. If she had unlimited knowledge she would not have needed Shikaku's book to treat Chouji. 

The reason I think that they can defeat her is as follows

1. Neji, he is simply faster than her and has much more skill in Taijutsu. Furthermore his attacks could stop her from using her strength and ninjutsu. I'm not sure how he would deal with the slug summon, but I think that he can avoid it long enough to defeat Tsunade.
2. Chouji, he is stronger than her. He could simply overpower her. I don't think there is much she can do if her internal organs are squeezed out of her body. His size would also allow him to deal with boss summons. 
3. Shino, he can keep his distance and go after her with bugs. Even the slug summon could be eaten by the swarm of chakra eating bugs. 



> We haven't seen much of Tsunade in combat. Jiraiya has; he actually grew up with her, trained with her, and fought alongside her. You claim she's weak. Jiraiya claims she's strong. The rest of the village puts their trust in her and elects her as Hokage. She not only has to be approved by the daimyō and by the Council, but by the entire jōnin body. In what world does the word of NF compete with theirs?



In the world of logic and reason. They know about her based on the legends created by the Sannin. She may have been much stronger back in the day,but she has not shown anything which makes her worthy to stand toe to toe with Jiraiya and Orochimaru. 



> I've seen the video and his arguments are poor at best. He lacks understanding of the events surrounding Tsunade's decisions and sees nothing beyond the surface.



I liked his point about Tsunade bending over backwards to accommodate Naruto, would you care to argue against it?


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> We haven't seen much of Tsunade in combat. Jiraiya has; he actually grew up with her, trained with her, and fought alongside her. You claim she's weak. Jiraiya claims she's strong. The rest of the village puts their trust in her and elects her as Hokage. She not only has to be approved by the daimyō and by the Council, but by the entire jōnin body. In what world does the word of NF compete with theirs?



Isnt that just Canon Hype and Plot? Hiruzen has that and probably has better feats


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## DeK3iDE (May 17, 2012)

> I've seen the video and his arguments are poor at best. He lacks understanding of the events surrounding Tsunade's decisions and sees nothing beyond the surface.


They are totally valid points. Out of the totality of the decisions she's made as Hokage there were barely any that weren't based solely on her personal feelings for Naruto, Sakura, or both. Hell, one of the first ones was automatically putting Naruto in the group that was supposed to retrieve Sasuke back in P1 despite Shikamaru telling her he was gonna need some of the best Chunin and Jonin that were around. No one who defends her decision-making can seem to point out exactly why out of all the ppl of such rank that were qualified for such missions, it was an absolute must for her that Naruto to be one of them

And on top of that, the very 1st one among a variety of decisions she made in P2 was automatically giving the assignment of rescuing Gaara to Team Kakashi. The real kicker is Jiraiya explicitly told her how uncomfortable he was with such a decision because it meant inevitably crossing paths with the same bunch of ppl who were targeting Naruto. But she was all like "who cares what you think? I know better" You're saying KingOfLightning was wrong about the points he made about her decision-making? And that's before mentioning her decision-making in the arcs following that including the current one

There is nothing superficial nor selective about the way KingOfLightning was talking about her lack of ability to make sane, rational, logical decisions as a Kage. It's the blunt truth


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> I'm not sure how seriously I can take this conversation. You're telling me that Hiashi, Chouji, and some unnamed Abumara are stronger than Tsunade, and you're telling me I'm misjudging her?



I am, she isn't all that strong. She has basically no variety to her abilities. 



> I'm really thinking that you're trolling now.
> 
> You think Tsunade should have gone to the border with the Rain Village to have kept Pein out?



I think she should have done something other than opening a bottle of sake and feeling sorry for herself. Scrambling ANBU to patrol the village's borders or even the border with the whatever nation the rain village is in. 

She is in charge of the Nation's security, she should act like it. 



> Yeah, she clearly should have negotiated with Pein and given him Naruto after he killed thousands of her villagers and had plans to create a super weapon with the Kyuubi to destroy the world with.



Not necessarily give him Naruto, if she was a good negotiator (like Naruto) she could have convinced him to join Konoha and fight against Tobi. But i wouldn't expect that much, she could have simply given up Naruto's location in order to have Pain leave the village. After Naruto returned to Konoha she could have ordered a few squads to pursue Pain.


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> If we judge her battle prowess on her ability to surprise or amuse Madara we're not going to get anywhere. I would also claim that Mei has been much more effective at creating opening than Tsunade has been.



If we play that game we can go back to the time before Tsunade healed them when they were pretty much useless because of their exhausted chakra levels.



> How so? How have her efforts put them further ahead, as far as I can tell they have not been able to land a single blow on Madara apart from the ones he allowed them to make. Plus right now they are more disadvantaged than they were at the beginning of the fight.



Knowing of a method to destroy Susanoo is progress in itself. It was stopping them from landing any blows.



> Unlimited knowledge? Since when? As far as I can tell she knows little to nothing about the inner working of their techniques. If she had unlimited knowledge she would not have needed Shikaku's book to treat Chouji.



Shikaku's book was a book of medicine on how to counter the aftereffects of the three pills. As the Hokage, she has to have knowledge on actual clan techniques in order to create effective mission squads.



> The reason I think that they can defeat her is as follows
> 
> 1. Neji, he is simply faster than her and has much more skill in Taijutsu. Furthermore his attacks could stop her from using her strength and ninjutsu. I'm not sure how he would deal with the slug summon, but I think that he can avoid it long enough to defeat Tsunade.



Yes, Neji, an inexperienced shinobi with a 4.5 in taijutsu > a veteran with a 5. Tsunade's strength is natural. She has a 5/5 in the stat, and worst case scenario, she has a second source of chakra stored in her forehead that opens at will, without hand seals. I'd like to see how he avoids Katsuyu, who has the ability to simply absorb Tsunade to protect her from attacks.



> 2. Chouji, he is stronger than her. He could simply overpower her. I don't think there is much she can do if her internal organs are squeezed out of her body. His size would also allow him to deal with boss summons.



His size is a huge disadvantage actually. He would be an extremely easy target for either Important Body Points Disturbance or her strength, or even just Katsuyu's acid. There's nothing he can do to hurt Katsuyu; blunt force attacks don't work.



> 3. Shino, he can keep his distance and go after her with bugs. Even the slug summon could be eaten by the swarm of chakra eating bugs.



Shino's actually slower than Tsunade, and god awful at taijutsu. He's not gonna be keeping his distance any time soon.

I'm not gonna argue any more X vs. Y. This isn't the battledome. I'm sure you could make decent arguments for Kakashi and Gai, whose 3/5 in intelligence would surely be a great asset to Konoha if he were Hokage, but even Kakashi himself has said Tsunade makes a better Hokage than he would, so there it is.



> In the world of logic and reason. They know about her based on the legends created by the Sannin. She may have been much stronger back in the day,but she has not _shown_ anything which makes her worthy to stand toe to toe with Jiraiya and Orochimaru.



Shown, exactly. She hasn't shown it, but Jiraiya acknowledges that it exists. How many opportunities has she actually had to demonstrate her skill in battle? Before the current fight, few people even believed she was ever gonna fight again, or show any new techniques, and some even said she was physically weaker than A. All believes that were obliterated in a matter of two or three chapters. And the fight isn't even over.



> I liked his point about Tsunade bending over backwards to accommodate Naruto, would you care to argue against it?



Naruto is the Child of Prophecy who is destined to save the world. Keeping him loyal to the village should be a priority, not to mention that he has a wild beast inside of him that needs to be controlled. That alone is grounds for special treatment.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> I am, she isn't all that strong. She has basically no variety to her abilities.



So Chouji, Hiashi, and the nameless Aburame have variety to their jutsus? 



> I think she should have done something other than opening a bottle of sake and feeling sorry for herself. Scrambling ANBU to patrol the village's borders or even the border with the whatever nation the rain village is in.
> 
> She is in charge of the Nation's security, she should act like it.



First of all, this is the second time you said she went off drinking. Do you have any proof of this? 

Second of all, Pain did run into security outside Konoha. He kind of killed them though, seeing as he is Pein. 

Third of all, do you have any evidence whatsoever, of any kind, that suggests that the border with the Rain Country was not monitored, or did you just make that up? 



> Not necessarily give him Naruto, if she was a good negotiator (like Naruto) she could have convinced him to join Konoha and fight against Tobi. But i wouldn't expect that much, she could have simply given up Naruto's location in order to have Pain leave the village. After Naruto returned to Konoha she could have ordered a few squads to pursue Pain



So she should have told the Akatsuki Naruto's safe haven's location, which is also the location of an allied village (breaking Konoha's alliance with Mount Myoboku)? 

What are these squads going to do? Pein is a sensor. He would immediately kill them and continue towards Mount Myoboku.


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## principito (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Logically, he can't do it until he proves he can. Byakugō can only heal Tsunade. Given that Madara said that it was the same ability Hashirama had, *logic dictates he could not use it to heal others. Nothing indicates Hashirama ever actually practiced medicine on other people like a real doctor (Tsunade) would.* I'm not assuming he doesn't have it, I'm simply waiting for him to prove he does. Something like a "innocent until proven guilty" sort of situation.



My logic assumes that healing a wound (either on yourself or somebody else) is WAY EASIER than regenerating even without seals. My logic says that u need to be able to know the basics of medical ninjutsu first then explore the heavy stuff. So by that logic Hashirama knew how to heal first then he learned the rest



> And yes, medical-nin are supposed to say behind, but as the fourth rule dictates, *if they've mastered Byakugō, they're allowed to fight*. :33



I know! and look where did that get her....




> The point of this argument was that Ico, or whoever initiated it, didn't believe Tsunade had any special skills or was the best at anything. Obviously her prowess in medicine speaks for itself, and seeing as medical ninjutsu is a branch of ninjutsu, and she is the best at it, that argument is negated.



Yes, this is a point i'm trying to debate with Melodie....
she does have special skills..... but those skills are not really special.
Strenght and medical ninjutsu are enough to make her average (carry her own weight) in the kind of fights we've seen lately, but that's it. 



Melodie said:


> What does this have to do with anything...?
> 
> Yeah, We are obviously reading a different manga.
> 
> ...



Yeah, my logic says otherwise (top of this same reply)


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

principito said:


> My logic assumes that healing a wound (either on yourself or somebody else) is WAY EASIER than regenerating even without seals. My logic says that u need to be able to know the basics of medical ninjutsu first then explore the heavy stuff. So by that logic Hashirama knew how to heal first then he learned the rest



You realize we're talking about Hashirama. That guy wasn't normal. He's hailed as the strongest shinobi there ever was and was said to stand at the pinnacle of the ninja world. His chakra was enough to suppress all the tailed beasts and submit them to his will. There was no "starting small," he was incredibly gifted in that he was born with an amazing technique everyone wants. Until you can prove Hashirama was a actual medical-nin with knowledge of biology and the like, Tsunade is his better in that regard.



> I know! and look where did that get her....



Uh, yeah? She's alive, she destroyed Susanoo, and tricked Madara into believing she was dead to create an opening to attack him. More than the other Kage have done.



> Yes, this is a point i'm trying to debate with Melodie....
> she does have special skills..... but those skills are not really special.
> Strenght and medical ninjutsu are enough to make her average (carry her own weight) in the kind of fights we've seen lately, but that's it.



You realize Tsunade's skill in medicine won Konoha a war, made her famous all over the world, and allowed her to reconstruct the way squads are formed to increase mission success rate...


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

Its like saying a boxer has a chance against a guy with a gun. Even if the boxer can soak up 100 shots, he still loses if he is slower. And Tsunade is fairly slow. Nothing else needs to be said really, she is weak as far as kages go.

This wouldnt bother me if 
A) She wasnt so easy to manipulate
B) She didnt have such a big mouth


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Rios said:


> Its like saying a boxer has a chance against a guy with a gun. Even if the boxer can soak up 100 shots, he still loses if he is slower. And Tsunade is fairly slow. Nothing else needs to be said really, she is weak as far as kages go.
> 
> This wouldnt bother me if
> A) She wasnt so easy to manipulate
> B) She didnt have such a big mouth


cant deny that Tsunade's Linear and Basic Offensive Capabilities added with the way Kishi Portrays this makes her Performance as a Hokage Underwhelming.

Hiruzen's Poor Performance was more Impressive in a since


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

> Uh, yeah? She's alive, she destroyed Susanoo, and tricked Madara into believing she was dead to create an opening to attack him. More than the other Kage have done.



Ok this bullshit needs to stop. Gaara did more with his combo attack with Naruto. His sand overcame Susano-o and pushed Madara to go to the next level. Which is MORE than simply using a clone. Not to mention Gaara has been known to overcome Susano-o with his sand way before Tsunade, his tactic is safer too.

Oonoki saved all kages if you dont remember. Inlcuding Tsunade. He did more when it comes to keeping the team alive.

All Tsunade did was piss off Madara and make the fight even harder for the kages. With her big mouth.


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Gaara is the person meant to seal Madara after all. 
its only a matter of time till one of the Kage die


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

Rios said:


> Ok this bullshit needs to stop. Gaara did more with his combo attack with Naruto. His sand overcame Susano-o and pushed Madara to go to the next level. Which is MORE than simply using a clone. Not to mention Gaara has been known to overcome Susano-o with his sand way before Tsunade, his tactic is safer too.



And hasn't done much since Naruto left. Why isn't he using doing it if it'll overcome Susanoo now? Does he not see the Kage struggling to break it?



> Oonoki saved all kages if you dont remember. Inlcuding Tsunade. He did more when it comes to keeping the team alive.



Was that before or after she healed him so he could actually use any techniques?



> All Tsunade did was piss off Madara and make the fight even harder for the kages. With her big mouth.



Why do people think this makes a difference? Does this change the fact that he's stronger than them and that he's had the advantage since the very beginning? Besides, you might want to wait until we see what the outcome of that is before you come to any conclusions.


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## principito (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> *You realize we're talking about Hashirama. That guy wasn't normal. *He's hailed as the strongest shinobi there ever was and was said to stand at the pinnacle of the ninja world. His chakra was enough to suppress all the tailed beasts and submit them to his will. There was no "starting small," he was incredibly gifted in that he was born with an amazing technique everyone wants. Until you can prove Hashirama was a actual medical-nin with knowledge of biology and the like, Tsunade is his better in that regard.



So your argument that counters the fact that Hashirama must've learned the basics first then the hard stuff is that he isnt normal? So the best ninja in Konoha.... learned high class regenerating jutsus.. skipping the easy part just cuz he wasn't normal? and all this just to support your assumption that Tsunade can heal others but he can't?

No offense, u can think whatever you want, but this one is pretty OUT THERE




> Uh, yeah? She's alive, she destroyed Susanoo, and *tricked Madara into believing she was dead* to create an opening to attack him. More than the other Kage have done.



NOBODY is tricking Madara in this fight.....




> You realize Tsunade's skill in medicine won Konoha a war, made her famous all over the world, and allowed her to r*econstruct the way squads are formed to increase mission success rate.*..



No. 

Tsunade's idea of introducing a medic into every team could've helped win the war.
her skill in medicine only kept Oro and Jiraya alive.... 
what are you talking about seriously? Its not like she healed ALL the wounded in Konoha.....

her IDEA helped.... that has nothing to do with her skill.... you said it yourself.


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## bleakwinter (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Do you see a single Kage besides Tsunade with those problems?


She doesn't have those problems anymore and that's my point in saying that she's a well-developed character. It shows good characterization on the author's part by showing a character breaking bad habits and ultimately become a better person. Minato, Tobirama, and Hashirama have no sort of depth to their characters, as the only thing Kishimoto shows us are their successes (And not their failures, which they inevitably have as human beings, but Kishimoto simply doesn't show us that). From a literary stand-point, Tsunade is well-developed because we see the full dimension of her character, not just a bunch of one-sided glory.



> No you can't, and that's the problem for Tsunade. Raikage and Onoki were in the right, they were doing what was best for their villages which is their job.


Raikage is in the right for trying to kill Naruto, the only person who is capable of turning the entire war around?

Onoki is in the right for hiring the most dangerous criminals in the entire story for his own personal gain?



> Tsunade simply isn't that strong, so it's fair to speculate that she could be beaten by some of the more powerful members of the village. Personally I don't see a way she could counter Shino's bugs or Neji's Jyuuken.


Tsunade being able to kill either of them in one-hit because they have no durability feats is not a counter? Neji was subdued by Kisame's water clone, and even a white Zetsu was able to hit Neji. Shino on the other hand has no evasive feats whatsoever (He hasn't even had a legitimate battle since the Chuunin exams).Tsunade would have no trouble one-shotting either of them. 



> What's so bad about disclosing his location? He is at the frog mountain which is at an undisclosed location.


If she told him Naruto's location, then she would be a traitor. In addition, Naruto would've captured if Pain simply sought him out at Myobouku Mountain, since he lacks the circumstances that allowed him to beat Pain at Konoha (Such as Hinata's presence which allowed him to go into Kyubi mode) .



> The difference between them and her is that they could actually fight Pain.


No they couldn't. Even Naruto needed animal summons and prep to fully put Pain down. 

Onoki is 100% Ninjutsu. Preta's ability would nullify everything he has, just as we've seen Madara do to Onoki's dust cone using Preta path alone.  

Raikage is extremely hot-headed and unnecessarily lost an arm (and almost a leg if Gaara hasn't saved him) against Sasuke.

Also, by feats, neither of the two have a way to protect their villagers against the mass Shinra Tensei. If Pain opted to use that against their villages, pretty much everyone would die. 



> The other characters don't carry the title of Hokage. Look at Hiruzen and Minato, they both chose to fight on their own against the leader of the enemy. Tsunade simply can't do that, she isn't strong enough.


It's not because she isn't strong enough. It's because she chose the smarter option (To heal the entire village instead of foolishly going up against someone who was strong enough to even kill Jiraiya). You're sorely underestimating Pain here. Pain killed Hanzo (Someone who bested all three Sannin in their prime) and then proceeded to kill Jiraiya. Going one-on-one against Pain would be pretty much suicide regardless if it were Hiruzen or Minato in her place. 






> Sasuke isn't a Hokage. He is 16. Because she is the only Hokage who consistently needs to be saved time


Fine. If you want to talk about Kage only:

What about Onoki getting saved by Gaara against Nidaime Mizukage? What about Onoki getting saved by Naruto against Mu? What about Raikage getting his leg saved from Kagutsuchi: Enton all because of Gaara's help?


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

I know she is not the only one but Tsunade overrating bugs me the very wrong way. And it has nothing to do with her being a woman. She is nothing but a one dimensional fighter with lame gimmick to keep her going. Whats worse is that thing has no established limits. She is basically the Wolverine of the Narutoverse, without the personality. 

And thats only one thing wrong with her, its like the author intentionally makes her look bad at every step just so he can make the Naruto -> Hokage transition smoother. She is kissing his feet already.

Orrrrr he just doesnt know what the hell he is doing. Sometimes I wish she gets the Sakura treatment instead of making her the voice of the leaders. Hey, there is another female there, give her more spotlight, she at least knows more than 2 jutsus.


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## Shaz (May 17, 2012)

Just to make a point, this man cannot spell his own name (Lighting instead of Lightening, not sure if he means to be cool or if it's a forgotten typo). That might tell us about his intellect in this debate. Though he isn't entirely wrong, he is just a drama queen.


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## spiritmight (May 17, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Just to make a point, this man cannot spell his own name.







I'm pretty sure it's been stated millions of times in the thread but the name "KingofLightning" was already been taken and he opted for "Kingoflighting" instead.


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## Shaz (May 17, 2012)

spiritmight said:


> I'm pretty sure it's been stated millions of times in the thread but the name "KingofLightning" was already been taken and he opted for "Kingoflighting" instead.



Pft, should of gone with QueenOfLightening, maybe he would of made a relationship he direly needs. Besides, it reflects on how he is a Drama queen, not that I say he is wrong in his debate, just a bit exaggerated. Though a lot of people exaggerate her ability as well in Tsunade wank threads.

EDIT: Oh and thanks for the neg, principito. Please point out where I claim to be an "intellectual", it is a fact the spelling is wrong, it's a valid point.


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

it was "KingOfLightning" But dat tshit changed months ago


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## Shaz (May 17, 2012)

Yeah, but I think the way he exaggerates about Tsunade is wrong. Neji wouldn't just beat the shit out of her. I'm no real Tsunade fan, or of her abilities, but she is pretty decent to hold off people, at least for a while. She might not be in the higher tier, but she is around medium. 
Also at the time she was chosen, she was the best person really, who had a _decent_ if not good amount of power to become Hokage, and had _most_ potential to be Hokage based on her _judgement_, note that I mean both judgement and power must be decent at least to even qualify as a candidate for the position. (Kakashi didn't want the position, also his decisions as he has admitted have not always been the best). Jiraiya didn't want the position either, and as a role model, with his whole pervy-sage side, wasn't really recommended, imagine your President or Prime Minister/Political leader a pervert, in public.

Yes, she didn't send an execution team out for Sasuke, but what would of that of done? If Sasuke did die, which she probably know he wouldn't, he'd just kill the ANBU at this stage, Naruto would of just gone on a rampage, and lost his best friend, and may of turned out like Sasuke, or at least do something stupid. She knew Konnoha needed Naruto's power, thus she knew she couldn't risk for him to put himself in danger.

She has flaws, but I think that's why she is one of the interesting Hokages, because she isn't looked at like a god, and it shows even the leader makes mistakes, but it relies on how they go about to amend them.

Yes there might be people with better jutsu than her in certain aspects, but do they have decent; _Power, judgement, discipline and determination_?

No, people are always missing some of those requirements to qualify, as seen with Kakashi, he isn't determined to be a Hokage, he still blames his judgement for the loss of his friends. 
This guy has admitted Tsunade's character does develop throughout the Manga, slowly. She gets past the feat of blood and loss of her loved ones, and stops blaming herself and accepts whats done is done, and needs to focus on the moment. That shows she has what others don't, the ability to focus on the matter in hand, and forget about mistakes.


I'm impartial about her, I'm nor really pleased with her, or disappointed. I think though, she deserves a bit of credibility in her position.


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Well he's not exaggerating thats just the way he normally talks period HA!


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 17, 2012)

I heard brain cells were lost from some of the crap people are spurting in this thread 

Anyway, just going to outline a few things in response to your own post, _MissinqNin_, Kakashi was never actually asked to be Hokage initially, Tsunade was chosen _over_ him. She was a much better candidate for the position. And honestly, she still is. 

Also, it wasn't that Tsunade didn't want to send a higher level team out for Sasuke, it's that she _couldn't_. All Jounin and Chuunin _[except Shikamaru]_ were out on missions, after Konoha's Jounin/Chuunin population was reduced from Orochimaru's invasion on leaf. The only candidate she had was Shikamaru, and as the team leader, it was up to him who he took with him on the mission. She also got help from higher level ninja as soon as she could : Gaara, Temari and Kankuro arrived to save the day _just_ in the nick of time. 

And yes, a strong leader has to take risks, and honestly, most of the risks Tsunade has taken have been very advantageous for Konoha in some way. She makes a great leader.​


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## Shaz (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I heard brain cells were lost from some of the crap people are spurting in this thread
> 
> Anyway, just going to outline a few things in response to your own post, _MissinqNin_, Kakashi was never actually asked to be Hokage initially, Tsunade was chosen _over_ him. She was a much better candidate for the position. And honestly, she still is.
> 
> ...




Godaime Tsunade enters the battlefield!

Yeah, I know that about Kakashi, I was just referring to people who thought he was good for the position (Though he would be decent, but Tsunade fits the role better, so I agree with you).

Admittedly, thanks for reminding me about the Tsunade sending out a party for the execution of Sasuke. Though my point was mainly that she probably knows having Naruto within the village is safe for him, and that the village needs him, being if she did go against his will on something he was that passionate about, he would go apeshit.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> If we play that game we can go back to the time before Tsunade healed them when they were pretty much useless because of their exhausted chakra levels.



Which reminds me, Tsunade was the one who dismissed Naruto's clone. I would say that was a rather poor decision on her part. That clone could have contributed a great deal. Would you agree?



> Knowing of a method to destroy Susanoo is progress in itself. It was stopping them from landing any blows.



Link removed
They had a method to get past Susano from the beginning of the fight. Nothing new is contributed. 



> Shikaku's book was a book of medicine on how to counter the aftereffects of the three pills. As the Hokage, she has to have knowledge on actual clan techniques in order to create effective mission squads.



Remind me of the effective mission squads she created. 



> Yes, Neji, an inexperienced shinobi with a 4.5 in taijutsu > a veteran with a 5. Tsunade's strength is natural. She has a 5/5 in the stat, and worst case scenario, she has a second source of chakra stored in her forehead that opens at will, without hand seals. I'd like to see how he avoids Katsuyu, who has the ability to simply absorb Tsunade to protect her from attacks.



Tsunade uses chakra to enhance her strength just like Sakura. And if Tsunade needs to hide inside Katsuyu from Neji I think we both know she doesn't deserve the Hokage title. 



> His size is a huge disadvantage actually. He would be an extremely easy target for either Important Body Points Disturbance or her strength, or even just Katsuyu's acid. There's nothing he can do to hurt Katsuyu; blunt force attacks don't work.



He can throw Katsuyu a few miles in any direction, and since Katsuyu is a slug it would probably be enough to put it out of the battle. Also Chouji doesn't need to grow, he can stay small and quite fast. 



> Shino's actually slower than Tsunade, and god awful at taijutsu. He's not gonna be keeping his distance any time soon.



He can use his bugs to keep his distance, if Tsunade simply charges right in she will be defeated easily by a bug substitute. If she doesn't she will be defeated eventually. 



> I'm not gonna argue any more X vs. Y. This isn't the battledome. I'm sure you could make decent arguments for Kakashi and Gai, whose 3/5 in intelligence would surely be a great asset to Konoha if he were Hokage, but even Kakashi himself has said Tsunade makes a better Hokage than he would, so there it is.



Jiraiya said that too and look at Konoha now, a proud crater with walls. 



> Shown, exactly. She hasn't shown it, but Jiraiya acknowledges that it exists. How many opportunities has she actually had to demonstrate her skill in battle?



Plenty, she had a fight with Kabuto, an opportunity to fight Pain, and now the Madara fight. 



> Before the current fight, few people even believed she was ever gonna fight again, or show any new techniques, and some even said she was physically weaker than A. All believes that were obliterated in a matter of two or three chapters. And the fight isn't even over.



Are you going to tell me you're satisfied with her performance against Madara? As a fan are you not disappointed with her showing thus far?



> Naruto is the Child of Prophecy who is destined to save the world. Keeping him loyal to the village should be a priority, not to mention that he has a wild beast inside of him that needs to be controlled. That alone is grounds for special treatment.



Special treatment yes, placing his feeling above the well-being of the village is another. A Kage should place the villages needs first.


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

Kakashi is smarter than Tsunade until proven otherwise. His battle feats are way more impressive, his intelligence - undisputed.


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## Shaz (May 17, 2012)

Rios said:


> Kakashi is smarter than Tsunade until proven otherwise. His battle feats are way more impressive, his intelligence - undisputed.



I agree. I would of liked to see him as Hokage, but I just don't see it, he is too cool for that type of thing. He doesn't like the position himself, and he even has highlighted his flaws such as judgement (Blames himself for Rin/Obito and his failure to prevent Sasuke from leaving).

I just think Kakashi is the more badass Ninja who shouldn't really be a village leader, but just a famous, solo ninja.


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Kakashi just doesnt wanna be hokage. 
he has 
Versatility
Intelligence
Experience
Skill
Calm Composure in Tough Situations 

And has shown regularly to be a leader.

Kakashi is highly Capable of Being Hokage.
If Kakashi was in Tsunade's Situation Against Pain about to Shinra Tensei the Village,
I think he Wouldve at least Sacrificed his Chakra to Kamui Him


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

And why Tsunade has to be Hokage instead of, lets say the leader of support corps, medic chief and reconnaissance assistant thanks to her summon?


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Rios said:


> And why Tsunade has to be Hokage instead of, lets say the leader of support corps, medic chief and reconnaissance assistant thanks to her summon?


That wouldnt be a stretch. plausible due to her Medical Renown. But she was Chosen cause of her hype of a Sannin Wasnt She? The Bases of the decision?


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## Santoryu (May 17, 2012)

Lmao.

Nothing against Tsunade, but Kakashi is, and will always be smarter than her. His intelligence has been compared to that of Shikimaru's on more than one occasion, and he's backed it up.

Also, Kakashi was a few seconds away from being hokage, *he never* declined the position, in fact, he knew it was best for the village so accepted immediately.

Anyone who thinks Kakashi wouldn't make a great hokage should read the manga again, and pay attention this time.

:byakuya

As for them two fighting eachother? I think it was established before the war even began that Kakashi was overall better in combat, since that time he and Gai were keeping pace with multiple V2 Jins, took out the swordsman (granted only 2 of them were on panel) and still had enough energy left to use Kamui and Gai was going to activate the final gate.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> She doesn't have those problems anymore and that's my point in saying that she's a well-developed character. It shows good characterization on the author's part by showing a character breaking bad habits and ultimately become a better person. Minato, Tobirama, and Hashirama have no sort of depth to their characters, as the only thing Kishimoto shows us are their successes (And not their failures, which they inevitably have as human beings, but Kishimoto simply doesn't show us that). From a literary stand-point, Tsunade is well-developed because we see the full dimension of her character, not just a bunch of one-sided glory.



She got drunk enough to puke in the middle of the day when Jiraiya invited her out for a drink. Are you going to say that's perfectly normal for a person in her position?

Her character isn't being doubted here, we are discussing her qualifications for the Hokage title. 



> Raikage is in the right for trying to kill Naruto, the only person who is capable of turning the entire war around?



If Naruto couldn't get past the Raikage he would either be killed or captured by Sasuke. Killing Naruto would have prevented the enemy from reaching their goals. 



> Onoki is in the right for hiring the most dangerous criminals in the entire story for his own personal gain?



He hired them for the sake of the village, at the time there was no indication that they would gather the Bijuu and threaten the world. Remember the Akatsuki only started gathering the Bijuu recently.



> Tsunade being able to kill either of them in one-hit because they have no durability feats is not a counter? Neji was subdued by Kisame's water clone, and even a white Zetsu was able to hit Neji. Shino on the other hand has no evasive feats whatsoever (He hasn't even had a legitimate battle since the Chuunin exams).Tsunade would have no trouble one-shotting either of them.



Being able to land a single hit can be a big deal, I'd even say that most fights are decided with a single attack. For Tsunade it is even more difficult to land a hit because she is rather slow and predictable. Neji has a great deal of experience fighting a much more skilled and much faster Lee. Shino has bug clones. 



> If she told him Naruto's location, then she would be a traitor. In addition, Naruto would've captured if Pain simply sought him out at Myobouku Mountain, since he lacks the circumstances that allowed him to beat Pain at Konoha (Such as Hinata's presence which allowed him to go into Kyubi mode) .



How so? How would Pain find the mountain if nobody knows where it is? It would have taken Pain days if not months to find it. Plenty of time to prepare an ambush with Konoha's finest backing up Naruto.  



> No they couldn't. Even Naruto needed animal summons and prep to fully put Pain down.
> 
> Onoki is 100% Ninjutsu. Preta's ability would nullify everything he has, just as we've seen Madara do to Onoki's dust cone using Preta path alone.
> 
> ...



They do not have to fight alone, and Tsunade knew about the abilities of the bodies ahead of time so that would certainly make things easier. 

Kakashi was able to come close to defeating the Deva realm with Chouji and Chouza as backup, so I think it isn't much of a stretch to say that any other kage with some back up could take on Pain. For example, the Raikage could have Shii blind the bodies with his genjutsu and A could take out Deva then and there. After that the fight is basically over. 



> It's not because she isn't strong enough. It's because she chose the smarter option (To heal the entire village instead of foolishly going up against someone who was strong enough to even kill Jiraiya). You're sorely underestimating Pain here. Pain killed Hanzo (Someone who bested all three Sannin in their prime) and then proceeded to kill Jiraiya. Going one-on-one against Pain would be pretty much suicide regardless if it were Hiruzen or Minato in her place.



What does healing the village accomplish? So she heals the wounded so what? The people who are killed are still killed and there are a lot more of those than there are of the wounded. Is she going to let Pain kill her people until he runs out of chakra to kill any more? (Oh yeah she did exactly that.)

Pain's biggest advantage is that his enemies have no knowledge of the techniques, Tsunade did. 



> Fine. If you want to talk about Kage only:
> 
> What about Onoki getting saved by Gaara against Nidaime Mizukage? What about Onoki getting saved by Naruto against Mu? What about Raikage getting his leg saved from Kagutsuchi: Enton all because of Gaara's help?



What about it? They were fighting powerful opponents. As apposed to Tsunade. Against Kabuto she was on her knees, I wouldn't call that fighting. On top of that Kabuto was hardly a powerful opponent at the time. Against Pain she needed to be saved, she never so much as put up a fight. Against Madara she is basically screwed, it's in no way shape or form an even fight.


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

*Lets Evaluate Kakashi in this War

Fighting For Days in the War with Sharingan Activated against the 7 Swordsmen Which was fought off with a KUNAI

Same Kakashi fatigued Kept up With Gated Gai When Tobi was intercepted


Fought off V2 Bijuu with KUNAI

Still has Stamina and Surviving*


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Which reminds me, Tsunade was the one who dismissed Naruto's clone. I would say that was a rather poor decision on her part. That clone could have contributed a great deal. Would you agree?



A clone who was low on chakra. So low in fact, Naruto couldn't even use his RM anymore. And what use was a tired out base Naruto, in comparison to the five great kages, and _Madara Uchiha_.





> Link removed
> They had a method to get past Susano from the beginning of the fight. Nothing new is contributed.



No they didn't. With Onoki increasing his speed and strength, Ei managed to break a single rib of Susano'o. While Tsunade; using nothing but her own strength, managed to completely blow open the Susano'o from head to toe. A _far_ greater feat than merely cracking a rib, with the aid of Onoki.



> Remind me of the effective mission squads she created.



The Niju Shotai, created to hunt down and exterminate Kakuzu and Hidan; which coincidentally, Team 10 were all a part of.

Then there was Sasuke's Retrieval squad, who managed to take down foes that even _Jounin_ could not defeat.




> Tsunade uses chakra to enhance her strength just like Sakura. And if Tsunade needs to hide inside Katsuyu from Neji I think we both know she doesn't deserve the Hokage title.



...what kind of logic is that? By similar logic, if Kakashi needs to hide underground using his ' Hiding Like a Mole Technique ' , he doesn't deserve the Jounin title. Or, if Neji needs to spin around with Kaiten to stop himself being hit by attacks, he also doesn't deserve the Jounin title.

And just to clarify, Tsunade doesn't _hide_ inside her slug, in fact Godaime Hokage never even implied this. Katsuyu; by her own free will, throws herself over allies who are in danger. The slugs natural instinct would be to protect her summoner. And Katsuyu, _her summon_ is just as much a part of her power as a shinobi, as her strength, or her medical ninjutsu is.





> He can throw Katsuyu a few miles in any direction, and since Katsuyu is a slug it would probably be enough to put it out of the battle. Also Chouji doesn't need to grow, he can stay small and quite fast.



Katsuyu can split into thousands of divisions, and tank village busting attacks; Chouji isn't throwing or defeating anything.




> He can use his bugs to keep his distance, if Tsunade simply charges right in she will be defeated easily by a bug substitute. If she doesn't she will be defeated eventually.



Tsunade blitzed Orochimaru, and reacted to his boss snake; _Manda_. Shino gets smashed like a fly before Tsunade even gets serious.

If you think Shino>Tsunade; you need to re-read the manga 




> Jiraiya said that too and look at Konoha now, a proud crater with walls.



 And what? You think Kakashi would have done better?

You realise because of Tsunade, there were minimal casualties, and villagers had information on Pein - and thus could fend for themselves as a result. What would Kakashi have done? Replicated what he did in the manga? Fight Deva and Asura path, and then die?

If Danzo hadn't interupted Tsunade's call for Naruto to return, Konoha wouldn't have been half as damaged as it was. If you're going to play the blame game, then blame the old man.



> Plenty, she had a fight with Kabuto, an opportunity to fight Pain, and now the Madara fight.



Let's evaluate that.


 She was immobilised in fear because of a blood phobia while fighting Kabuto, so her battle went to the shitter after that.

 She had no chakra left to fight Pein, she was in a near-death condition. Again, any chance of her having a battle, fell off the ends of the earth.

 And here we are against Madara, where she's only started her assault, and despite showcasing good feats already, she hasn't even pulled out all her trump cards yet. The battle is _far_ from over.




> Are you going to tell me you're satisfied with her performance against Madara? As a fan are you not disappointed with her showing thus far?



Smashed open a supposedly invincible defense with two blows. Took an incredible amount of damage and could still retaliate, and was praised by Madara himself, after she proved that she wasn't weak, as he had assumed prior.

So yes, I know _I'm_ fairly satisfied with her recent feats.




> Special treatment yes, placing his feeling above the well-being of the village is another. A Kage should place the villages needs first.



And you realise that, given the nature of this manga, that would never happen, right? The only militant Kage who would do something like what you're suggesting is Danzo, and look where he ended up. He thought by preventing Naruto from coming to Konoha during the Pein invasion, he was protecting Konoha. While in reality, he screwed everyone over, because Naruto was Konoha's strongest shinobi. 

Tsunade having so much faith in Naruto isn't always a bad thing, you know?



Rios said:


> Kakashi is smarter than Tsunade until proven otherwise. His battle feats are way more impressive, his intelligence - undisputed.



He may be more intelligent, but he is less than satisfactory when it comes to physically protecting his village from invaders. His chakra capacity is far too small to combat foes like Pein, or Orochimaru. And he lacks the experience, knowledge of history, and contacts that Tsunade has. 

I'd argue Tsunade is on equal footing with him in combat. But that's an argument for the BD, not the Library.​


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## Melodie (May 17, 2012)

Who cares about whether Tsunade is stronger or weaker than kakashi at this point, this '_TheFirstHokageOfTheWood_' guy is saying that Shino, Neji or Chouji could beat Tsunade. Not sure if he's talking about one finger Tsunade against them individually or what.

as for principito? Apparently the kyuubi is a medical ninja.

​


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> That wouldnt be a streatch. plausible due to her Medical Renown. But she was Chosen cause of her hype of a Sannin Wasnt She? The Bases of the decision?



yea and we need to cut her some slack because of this
after all Jiraiya was the chosen one, she is basically filling his spot so expectations should be low


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He may be more intelligent, but he is less than satisfactory when it comes to physically protecting his village from invaders. His chakra capacity is far too small to combat foes like Pein, or Orochimaru. And he lacks the experience, knowledge of history, and contacts that Tsunade has.
> 
> I'd argue Tsunade is on equal footing with him in combat. But that's an argument for the BD, not the Library.​



Yes but as far as Combat
Kakashi[Even with limited Knowledge] did Better in Combat than Anyone in the Village when Pain arrived Except Naruto.


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He may be more intelligent, but he is less than satisfactory when it comes to physically protecting his village from invaders. His chakra capacity is far too small to combat foes like Pein, or Orochimaru. And he lacks the experience, knowledge of history, and contacts that Tsunade has.
> 
> I'd argue Tsunade is on equal footing with him in combat. But that's an argument for the BD, not the Library.



Thats moot. He has proven himself in this war fighting for so long. Tsunade may have bigger chakra reserves but he is by no means a person with low stamina. That was part 1, part 1 doesnt matter much in part 2 when it comes to power levels.

As for the rest of your points - she has more fame than him, which didnt really help her at all against Pain. Pain recognized Kakashi as someone dangerous, he didnt give a shit about what Tsunade had to say, went up and did his thing. Knowledge, contacts and all this can only help you in peaceful time. A simple old adviser can fill up all these functions no problem.


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## Klue (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> If Danzo hadn't interupted Tsunade's call for Naruto to return, Konoha wouldn't have been half as damaged as it was. If you're going to play the blame game, then blame the old man.​



Village still intact, means no epic cool down period for Shinra Tensei. Naruto now has to fight Pain at full power.

Naruto loses.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 17, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> Yes but as far as Combat
> Kakashi[Even with limited Knowledge] did Better in Combat than Anyone in the Village when Pain arrived Except Naruto.



Kakashi is one of Konoha's strongest shinobi so that's no surprise. Tsunade did the smart thing and healed everyone, she never entered combat. So you can't compare their combat feats in this instance, because she never showed any.



Rios said:


> Thats moot. He has proven himself in this war fighting for so long. Tsunade may have bigger chakra reserves but he is by no means a person with low stamina. That was part 1, part 1 doesnt matter much in part 2 when it comes to power levels.



Perhaps I worded that wrong. The only technique that really gets Kakashi into the higher ' Kage-tier ' bracket, is Kamui. And it costs considerable amounts of chakra. Chakra that Kakashi doesn't have to waste. While Tsunade can spam trump techniques like Summons, or mass scale medical ninjutsu, Kakashi can only spam his smaller scale attacks, which are used for 1v1 matches, like Raikiri.



> As for the rest of your points - she has more fame than him, which didnt really help her at all against Pain. Pain recognized Kakashi as someone dangerous, he didnt give a shit about what Tsunade had to say, went up and did his thing. Knowledge, contacts and all this can only help you in peaceful time. A simple old adviser can fill up all these functions no problem.



Tsunade was in a near-death condition and could barely stand. And since Naruto had appeared, why would Pein express any interest in her? His purpose was finding Naruto, not praising individual shinobi. And, why have an advisor fill those roles when you can have a Kage?​


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakashi is one of Konoha's strongest shinobi so that's no surprise. Tsunade did the smart thing and healed everyone,* she never entered combat. So you can't compare their combat feats in this instance, because she never showed any.*
> ​




thats right Exactly​


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## Rios (May 17, 2012)

It goes against everything a kage should be doing. If she had a superior, I bet she'd get fired the next day.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> So Chouji, Hiashi, and the nameless Aburame have variety to their jutsus?



Much more than Tsunade does, which in itself is an issue. Thus far her abilities have basically been limited to charging headfirst at an enemy and then healing when that doesn't work. That's an abysmal tactic.  (I am basing this on her recent performance against Madara.)



> First of all, this is the second time you said she went off drinking. Do you have any proof of this?



Yes. Link removed



> Second of all, Pain did run into security outside Konoha. He kind of killed them though, seeing as he is Pein.



Nothing shows that they were expecting him. Nothing shows that Konoha was excepting him either. Information about his bodies wasn't distributed or anything despite Tsunade having about a week to prepare. 



> Third of all, do you have any evidence whatsoever, of any kind, that suggests that the border with the Rain Country was not monitored, or did you just make that up?



Nagato was able to move a wheelchair across the fire nation right up to a hill next to Konoha. That suggests that there were absolutely no sensors stationed between him and Konoha. 



> So she should have told the Akatsuki Naruto's safe haven's location, which is also the location of an allied village (breaking Konoha's alliance with Mount Myoboku)?



She doesn't know the location. Nobody besides the frogs does. She would have told Pain that Naruto is at Myoboku being trained by the sages. That gives Pain enough to stop attacking and leave peacefully. 



> What are these squads going to do? Pein is a sensor. He would immediately kill them and continue towards Mount Myoboku.



A hell of a lot more than Naruto could do on his own.


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## Barioth (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> While I try to figure out what you're getting at, I will clarify that I told Ico that he is, of course, more than welcome to make any claim about Tsunade's character that he feels is correct. It's his opinion and he has a right to have it and express it. What I won't stand for is people telling me what characters I should and should not like because of what _they_ think about that character. You don't just walk up to people and tell them to stop liking vanilla ice cream because _you_ think it's shit.



Well I was referring to your implication statement based on Melodie post. 

My previous post implication to you was a cop out. Instead of taking the argument into consideration. You rather just end it with a opinion is opinion. 

Well I think anyone can agree to a degree that no one should tell you "What to like" but that doesn't make your statement any better by saying, "You like what you like."

So basically from what I observe right now is:

Ico's: You shouldn't like this because of A,B, and C.
You: Well I like what I want is because of D,E, and F.

So basically neither of you address to each other. Rather just pointing out he or she shouldn't say that.


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## Ryuzaki (May 17, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> When did this happen? As I recall it Madara used a wood clone to have Tsunade drop her guard, not the other way around.


Well, I meant generally, as it could be applied to other characters and they would assume just as Madara did that she would be dead after such a fatal blow.


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## Maerala (May 17, 2012)

Anar G said:


> My previous post implication to you was a cop out. Instead of taking the argument into consideration. You rather just end it with a opinion is opinion.



That definitely never happened. I've been hearing and debating criticisms about Tsunade on NF for years. I don't care that people do it (as long as it's not in a spiteful way like everyone in this thread is doing), but when people start to say that I shouldn't like her, that's where I draw the line. How is that a cop-out? I'm still debating the actual points, just asking people to respect my taste in characters, which really isn't too much to consider.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> A clone who was low on chakra. So low in fact, Naruto couldn't even use his RM anymore. And what use was a tired out base Naruto, in comparison to the five great kages, and _Madara Uchiha_.



According to Legendary Beauty Tsunade can distribute chakra. Furthermore the clone can gather chakra in sage mode. No matter how you look at it the clone was an asset and the Kages need everything they can get against Madara.



> No they didn't. With Onoki increasing his speed and strength, Ei managed to break a single rib of Susano'o. While Tsunade; using nothing but her own strength, managed to completely blow open the Susano'o from head to toe. A _far_ greater feat than merely cracking a rib, with the aid of Onoki.



Different forms of Susano, and as you can see Raikage's attack went straight though Susano. And remind me when she destroyed Susano on her own please. 



> The Niju Shotai, created to hunt down and exterminate Kakuzu and Hidan; which coincidentally, Team 10 were all a part of.



How effective were those teams again? How many Akatsuki did they defeat or capture? It's a basic rule to put a medic in each squad, who was the medic in Asuma's squad?



> Then there was Sasuke's Retrieval squad, who managed to take down foes that even _Jounin_ could not defeat.



Shikamaru put that team together, not Tsunade.



> ...what kind of logic is that? By similar logic, if Kakashi needs to hide underground using his ' Hiding Like a Mole Technique ' , he doesn't deserve the Jounin title. Or, if Neji needs to spin around with Kaiten to stop himself being hit by attacks, he also doesn't deserve the Jounin title.



If he needed to do it against Neji than no he wouldn't deserve the Hokage title. 



> And just to clarify, Tsunade doesn't _hide_ inside her slug, in fact Godaime Hokage never even implied this. Katsuyu; by her own free will, throws herself over allies who are in danger. The slugs natural instinct would be to protect her summoner. And Katsuyu, _her summon_ is just as much a part of her power as a shinobi, as her strength, or her medical ninjutsu is.



Aren't you Godaime Hokage? And you were not the one who I was talking to...

Anyways, the implication was that Tsunade would hide inside Katsuyu and Neji would have no counter to it. 



> Katsuyu can split into thousands of divisions, and tank village busting attacks; Chouji isn't throwing or defeating anything.



It it splits he can step on it until it isn't a threat. Slug pancakes just like the pain pancake.



> Tsunade blitzed Orochimaru, and reacted to his boss snake; _Manda_. Shino gets smashed like a fly before Tsunade even gets serious.
> 
> If you think Shino>Tsunade; you need to re-read the manga



Tsunade blitzed Orochimaru? When was this? Could you provide a scan?




> And what? You think Kakashi would have done better?



Not just me, I think this is the opinion of the majority of the manga's readers. 



> You realise because of Tsunade, there were minimal casualties, and villagers had information on Pein - and thus could fend for themselves as a result. What would Kakashi have done? Replicated what he did in the manga? Fight Deva and Asura path, and then die?



Kakashi was fighting on his own, he had no backup, he had no means to command Konoha's forces. Even with that much he did far better than Tsunade.

Can you prove there were minimal casualties because of Tsunade? 



> If Danzo hadn't interupted Tsunade's call for Naruto to return, Konoha wouldn't have been half as damaged as it was. If you're going to play the blame game, then blame the old man.



You do realize that the only reason Naruto so much as put up a fight against Pain was because Nagato didn't have enough chakra to fully use Pain after CST. If Naruto returned earlier he would have been captured. 



> Let's evaluate that.
> 
> 
> She was immobilised in fear because of a blood phobia while fighting Kabuto, so her battle went to the shitter after that.
> ...



List tags, didn't know about those. Let me try it out...


 She wasn't doing too hot before that either.
 She had chakra when Pain attacked the village, she had chakra when she met Pain, she chose not to fight him. 
 What are her trump cards exactly? Is she waiting for something?



> Smashed open a supposedly invincible defense with two blows. Took an incredible amount of damage and could still retaliate, and was praised by Madara himself, after she proved that she wasn't weak, as he had assumed prior.
> 
> So yes, I know _I'm_ fairly satisfied with her recent feats.



Yes very impressive, if only she wasn't being compared to the other Hokages...



> And you realise that, given the nature of this manga, that would never happen, right? The only militant Kage who would do something like what you're suggesting is Danzo, and look where he ended up. He thought by preventing Naruto from coming to Konoha during the Pein invasion, he was protecting Konoha. While in reality, he screwed everyone over, because Naruto was Konoha's strongest shinobi.



How did he screw everyone over? If Naruto arrived earlier he would have had to fight a full powered Pain, he could barely handle the Deva realm. 



> Tsunade having so much faith in Naruto isn't always a bad thing, you know?



I agree, Naruto is an important figure for Konoha his skill should be developed to their fullest. I think Tsunade has done some great things for Naruto, and thus for the village. But at the same time I think she put the village into too much danger by allowing Oro to have Sasuke. She knew of Sasuke's bloodline. She knew Oro was going to attack Konoha as soon as he attained Sasuke's body. 



> He may be more intelligent, but he is less than satisfactory when it comes to physically protecting his village from invaders. His chakra capacity is far too small to combat foes like Pein, or Orochimaru. And he lacks the experience, knowledge of history, and contacts that Tsunade has.



I disagree, his intelligence makes up for his lack of chakra. Having a decent battle plan can mean far more than having a few chakra beasts. Look at how Shikamaru used his team against Hidan and Kakazu. They were chakra beast but they simply got outmaneuvered.


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## Barioth (May 17, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> That definitely never happened. I've been hearing and debating criticisms about Tsunade on NF for years. I don't care that people do it (as long as it's not in a spiteful way like everyone in this thread is doing), but when people start to say that I shouldn't like her, that's where I draw the line. How is that a cop-out? I'm still debating the actual points, just asking people to respect my taste in characters, which really isn't too much to consider.



I see your point now. My apologizes.


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## raizen28 (May 17, 2012)

Hahaha keep voting the thread stars down highly offensive?


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## αce (May 17, 2012)

Hey Melodie, didn't I tell you Tsunade fans are easy bait?


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 18, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> According to Legendary Beauty Tsunade can distribute chakra. Furthermore the clone can gather chakra in sage mode. No matter how you look at it the clone was an asset and the Kages need everything they can get against Madara.



That's debatable. I think LB is talking about when Onoki and Gaara were being healed by Tsunade - they seemed to have some kind of boost in energy, as they weren't as fatigued. 

However, it might have just been Kishimoto ignoring their fatigue so that the five kages could fight together. If Tsunade could distribute chakra with medical ninjutsu, she herself would never get tired. I personally don't think she is capable of such a feat. 

The Kage's made no attempt to stop Tsunade dismissing Naruto, and in fact, they just as much dismissed him as she did [ 1 ]. If you _really_ think Naruto was going to be an asset there; which, by his own admission, _he was not_, then blame all the kage's for sending him away, not just Tsunade.



> Different forms of Susano, and as you can see Raikage's attack went straight though Susano. And remind me when she destroyed Susano on her own please.



Ei, with the help of Onoki, managed to break a rib of a weaker form of Susano'o. We don't know if they put a hole through it, the light emitted from the blast may have just shone through the area of contact ie. the rib. Even then, it still isn't as impressive as what Tsunade accomplished. Evidently, Ei and Onoki couldn't break through the Susano'o defence that Tsunade was attacking, in the same way that they broke the Susano'o form before that. [ 1 ] Because whenever they strike it, they merely weaken the shield. Tsunade however managed to crack Susano'o with a single blow [ 1 ] And blow open the shield entirely with another [ 1 ] Madara even referred to her as being stronger than Ei, and this was _while_ his strength was being increased with Onoki's doton. 



> How effective were those teams again? How many Akatsuki did they defeat or capture? It's a basic rule to put a medic in each squad, who was the medic in Asuma's squad?



Very effective. Part of the Niju Shotai successfully killed Kakuzu and Hidan. There aren't very many medical ninja, First Hokage. [ 1 ] Regardless, Tsunade sent in Ino, a medical ninja, as soon as she could. [ 1 ]





> Shikamaru put that team together, not Tsunade.



No, but Tsunade chose Shikamaru to lead the team. And if it hadn't been for his decisions during that mission, they wouldn't have gotten half as far as they did. 



> If he needed to do it against Neji than no he wouldn't deserve the Hokage title.



Now your just blurting out random answers.



> Aren't you Godaime Hokage? And you were not the one who I was talking to...
> 
> Anyways, the implication was that Tsunade would hide inside Katsuyu and Neji would have no counter to it.



No, but I thought I'd save Godaime Hokage the hassle of replying to these kind of posts. 



> It it splits he can step on it until it isn't a threat. Slug pancakes just like the pain pancake.



Stepping on a small division wouldn't do crap, since even the _smallest of divisions_ can withstand this level of damage. [ 1 ]



> Tsunade blitzed Orochimaru? When was this? Could you provide a scan?


 
_Sure._




> Not just me, *I think* this is the opinion of the majority of the manga's readers.



*Exactly.*



> Kakashi was fighting on his own, he had no backup, he had no means to command Konoha's forces. Even with that much he did far better than Tsunade.



Kakashi did have back-up. [ 1 ]  Again, Tsunade healed people and saved the village from total annihilation. She didn't fight and get herself killed. You can't compare their combat feats, because Tsunade didn't show any.



> Can you prove there were minimal casualties because of Tsunade?



...

She healed an entire village. If you seriously think there would be _less_ injuries if Tsunade _didn't_ heal people..then suit yourself.




> You do realize that the only reason Naruto so much as put up a fight against Pain was because Nagato didn't have enough chakra to fully use Pain after CST. If Naruto returned earlier he would have been captured.



And if Naruto had of came earlier, then the village wouldn't have been destroyed, Tsunade would have been able to fight, and skilled ninja like _Kakashi_ wouldn't be dead. Naruto had been captured anyway [ 1 ] and if it wasn't for Hinata throwing herself in front of him, he probably would have been defeated. If Danzo hadn't stopped the messenger frog from relaying the emergency call to Naruto, the village wouldn't have been half as bad as it was. 

If Tsunade had of been able to do things her way, without anyone ruining her plans, Naruto definitely wouldn't have been captured. And to defeat Pein - Naruto wouldn't have had to go KN8, and Hinata wouldn't have needed to sacrifice herself. Furthermore, there's no way Pein could have taken on Naruto, Tsunade, Kakashi, and various other ninja at the same time. In short, if things had gone Tsunade's way, Konoha would have faired much better than it did.



> She wasn't doing too hot before that either.
> She had chakra when Pain attacked the village, she had chakra when she met Pain, she chose not to fight him.
> What are her trump cards exactly? Is she waiting for something?



The only reason Tsunade was actually hit at all was because Kabuto landed a cheap hit in mid air, where Tsunade; by law of physics, could not dodge. Kabuto got _behind her_, and Tsunade tackled him - she ran straight into his chakra scalpel. [ 1 ] That was sheer luck on Kabuto's part, because he couldn't land any hits by conventional means. [ 1 ] After he immobilised Tsunade with that one fluky strike, he was able to land a consecutive, more lethal blow [ 1 ] Once again, Tsunade couldn't dodge such a quick attack, because her leg and arm muscles had just been torn, not because she lacked skill, or speed. 

On the other hand, Tsunade landed just as many blows on Kabuto as he did on her [ 1 ] [ 2 ] Honestly, given the circumstances, she wasn't doing that badly.

As for Pein, Tsunade did the intelligent thing and healed everyone. If Jiraiya couldn't defeat him, then obviously she couldn't either. Instead of aimlessly fighting him, killing a few of his weaker bodies, and then dying, she kept everyone in Konoha alive. You can't criticize her for doing the right thing.

And her trump card should definitely be Katsuyu. 



> Yes very impressive, if only she wasn't being compared to the other Hokages...



I'm curious. You have said she's being compared to other ' Hokage*s* ' . But in the manga, the only Hokage she was compared to was Hashirama. But everyone is below Hashirama, not just her.

What other Hokage are you referring to?



> I agree, Naruto is an important figure for Konoha his skill should be developed to their fullest. I think Tsunade has done some great things for Naruto, and thus for the village. But at the same time I think she put the village into too much danger by allowing Oro to have Sasuke. She knew of Sasuke's bloodline. She knew Oro was going to attack Konoha as soon as he attained Sasuke's body.



She didn't _allow_ Orochimaru to have Sasuke though, did she? She even sent a retrieval team to ensure Orochimaru didn't get Sasuke, but they failed their mission, because the Sound 4 got in the way.



> I disagree, his intelligence makes up for his lack of chakra. Having a decent battle plan can mean far more than having a few chakra beasts. Look at how Shikamaru used his team against Hidan and Kakazu. They were chakra beast but they simply got outmaneuvered.



The only person Shikamaru out-smarted was Hidan, and that wasn't very difficult given how unobservant, and generally unintelligent he was. We saw what Kakashi's smarts did when he was trying to combat Pein : while he fought one path, 5 others slaughtered his village. We saw how Tsunade dealt with the invasion, she kept her village alive, which is the top priority of a Kage. Her method of countering Pein was far more effective.​


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 18, 2012)

Chouji might very well be stronger then tsunade now, Neji and shino not do much although Shinos dad would take out the trash.(JK)


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 18, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's debatable. I think LB is talking about when Onoki and Gaara were being healed by Tsunade - they seemed to have some kind of boost in energy, as they weren't as fatigued.
> 
> However, it might have just been Kishimoto ignoring their fatigue so that the five kages could fight together. If Tsunade could distribute chakra with medical ninjutsu, she herself would never get tired. I personally don't think she is capable of such a feat.
> 
> ...




I get a 403 error when I click the links in your post, since they seem to be central to your argument could you link to public sources?


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 18, 2012)

I thought I was going to need the links but I can end this discussion here and now. First, allow me to say that you made a very good point in the begining of your post. It was as much Tsunade's fault as it was the other Kages, they all dismissed Naruto's clone together, I was wrong.

Having said that, your bias towards this topic is a bit over the top. You're making claims which are completely ridiculous.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Ei, with the help of Onoki, managed to break a rib of a weaker form of Susano'o.



The form Ei and Onoki attacked was obviously stronger than the form Tsunade attacked. It was the third stage of Susano while on the other hand Tsunade was attacking the first stage. 

The stages are in the following order
1. Rib cage - Link removed
2. Skeleton form - Link removed
3. Complete - Link removed
4. Armored - Link removed

Link removed
As we can see here Ei and Onoki were obviously attacking a third stage Susano, which is a more powerful defense than the first stage. The characteristics of this stage are that it is nor armored but at the same time it does show the Susano skeleton. 

Link removed
On the other hand it is quite obvious that Tsunade is attacking the first stage of Susano. A much weaker form. 



> We don't know if they put a hole through it, the light emitted from the blast may have just shone through the area of contact ie. the rib. Even then, it still isn't as impressive as what Tsunade accomplished.



It would not be more impressive to you, but Ei's accomplishment is far more impressive to any impartial reader. It is again an obvious difference.

Link removed
Link removed
Ei's blow sends Madara and Susano flying. 

Link removed
On the other hand Madara quite easily counterattacks against Tsunade and it takes Mei's suiton to protect Tsunade and to send Madara into the air. 



> Evidently, Ei and Onoki couldn't break through the Susano'o defence that Tsunade was attacking, in the same way that they broke the Susano'o form before that. Because whenever they strike it, they merely weaken the shield. Tsunade however managed to crack Susano'o with a single blow. And blow open the shield entirely with another.



Link removed
Link removed
Individually their attacks could only crack the rib cage. Together they were able to accomplish something they could not do individually. Your claim that Tsunade is to be credited with breaking apart Susano on her own is absurd, Ei and Onoki are clearly given credit here for fracturing Susano. (Which by the way was not shown to have any damage from Tsunade's earlier attack.)



> Madara even referred to her as being stronger than Ei, and this was _while_ his strength was being increased with Onoki's doton.



Again, your bias is showing. Madara said nothing about Onoki, he simply compared Tsunade to Ei. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing but your bias suggest that Onoki was factored in. 


In conclusion, this paragraph clearly demonstrates your bias in Tsunade's favor. The bias is evident in your claim that the third stage of Susano is weaker than the first stage, your claim that Ei's much stronger attack was weaker than Tsunade's attack, and your claim that Tsunade, on her own, broke though Susano. In the future do not make such obvious mistakes.


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## Barioth (May 18, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> I thought I was going to need the links but I can end this discussion here and now. First, allow me to say that you made a very good point in the begining of your post. It was as much Tsunade's fault as it was the other Kages, they all dismissed Naruto's clone together, I was wrong.
> 
> Having said that, your bias towards this topic is a bit over the top. You're making claims which are completely ridiculous.
> 
> ...



Human emotion tends to overwhelm from time to time. Debate is to share info or to persuade the other people. There is many more reasons to it though. 

But I think there are times when your favorite or hatred over clouds your judgement.


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## raizen28 (May 18, 2012)

Tsunade blitz a stupid minded weak Oro


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## DeK3iDE (May 18, 2012)

> Madara even referred to her as being stronger than Ei, and this was while his strength was being increased with Onoki's doton.


It's a baseless point to argue because Madara hasn't exactly had the opportunity to gauge Ei's strength and speed while in V2 has he? It's clear that Ei's been holding back because of the obvious abilities of the Preta Path so he's had to rely on Onoki making him lighter. Ppl should be smarter than this


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## Melodie (May 18, 2012)

The funniest thing I've ever read in this thread is that '_TheFirstHokageOfTheWood_' claiming that the opposite member's claims are  completely ridiculous and  biased (_when it is the opposite_).​
______________________
_I. Preface_​
I believe that I should write everything as well as reply to everyone in this thread, despite me claiming that I'll not reply even further, thanks to the ludicrous statements that specific members have stated in this thread. So from here I'll hopefully counter everything from the reviewer's statements to the members, mellifluously. I hope that I'll be able to point out everything clearly and with evidence.​

_II. Naruto & Sasuke_​
In this category, I'll point out the concerns that are regarding _Tsunade's_ judgement towards _Naruto_ (The Influence) and not making _Sasuke_ a missing ninja.

First of all, you have to put into consideration, before putting it into Tsunade's character, that these two persons are the casters of the main cast. So it should be more than obvious that Tsunade, the character, should not be able to either restrain Naruto from leaving the village ever, as well as she cannot just kill Sasuke, who's the whole series is all about. The author can't just make the leader of the village to end the series instantly (by killing Sasuke). However, in regards to Naruto, we have seen that there are moments where she do have to be _strict_ to him. and the reason that Tsunade _went to naruto's side_, is because that the raikage went ahead and tried to something as ridicule as _killing_ naruto. Leaving all of that aside, please put a note that, no matter which person was the kage of hidden leaf, their judgements towards Naruto would be the same, because as I have said, he is the main character of the series. whether it was Kakashi, Shikaku, or whoever that is a kage candidate.​
_______________________
_III. Hypothetical match-ups_​
First of all, I do know that these kind of match-ups are mostly important to the battledome, and not here, however as a kage, she is supposed to be one of the strongest people that are present in this village. So I believe that it is fair to put them into consideration here. I'll point out that I believe there are only two people who could stance a chance against Tsunade ( Kakashi & Gai [Naruto is excluded for obvious reasons]). But for the sake of this thread, I'll also add in one of the characters that the reviewer have addressed, as well as other posters who are in this thread. I'll be starting with :​
Shino vs. Tsunade.(Addressed by 'TheFirstHokageOfTheWood').

I'll note why this match up is completely a stomp in favour of Tsunade, and that there is no chance for Shino to hope to win. Tsunade is way _too fast_ that Shino might not be able to react. Tsunade is far more _skilled_ in the close quarter combat category. Tsunade is _resilient_ and her medical capabilities are legendary that _it could be able to heal an arm which lost it's soul_. So to be honest, I do not see Shino winning. he would be _blitzed_.​

Chōji vs. Tsunade (Addressed by 'TheFirstHokageOfTheWood')

Just for the sake of common sense and logic, I'll be talking about Chouji, Who has his _butterfly mode_ on, since otherwise, it would be a similar stomp, just like Shino's match-up. Anyways, I'm under the impression that Chōji has higher physical strength than Tsunade (In his butterfly mode), but I don't think that alone would be enough to defeat her. I could see him landing some pretty good hits on her either due to superior speed (Just a reminder, butterfly mode), luck or from size. But, whatever he does, it shouldn't be beyond Tsunade's healing or regeneration prowess. _Shōsen Jutsu_ and _Sōzo Saisei_ should both be sufficient in restoring her health and stamina. 

Unfortunately, while Tsunade can keep getting up from Chōji's attack as a thanks to her natural resilience and medical prowess, Chōji can't say the same. He arguably packs a harder punch, but can't take nearly as much punishment as Tsunade can, therefore if Tsunade does manage to successfully land a hit, there's a high chance he'd be _knocked out_. It wouldn't be as bad in his giant form, but in return he'd be a much bigger target for Tsunade to exploit and Katsuyu as well, if she summons her. His punches would have no effect on the slug, and it's acid would be pretty effective on an opponent that big. So yes, Just for the sake of this argument, I've made him start in his butterfly mode, and even in that mode, It is more plausible for Tsunade to end up the victor.​
Tsunade vs. Kakashi (By the reviewer and is a famous match-up that have been repeated)

This is a tricky one. Because although Kakashi is on average faster than Tsunade, one hit ends him. And undoubtedly her taijutsu is in fact better than his. That being said, you don't land taijutsu strikes without the speed to do so, and thus Tsunade will initially find it very difficult to land hits on speedy Kakashi. Kakashi is also in this scenario, should be fighting for a kill, thus should be throwing Raikiris and Lightning Hounds as though there's no tomorrow. Tsunade is typically an evasion master, and when in the heat of close combat against an enemy she doesn't know(in this scenario), she will no undoubtedly move around faster than usual, they're fighting while aiming for a kill in this scenario(being blood-lusted). Thus , she should be able to dodge some of these attacks, though obviously not all of them, as in the end - Kakashis average speed is greater. If Kakashi does land a Raikiri on Tsunade, she always has Creation Rebirth. The technique can easily recover her from damage and is very quick to activate, as we see during the Pein Arc. When put under great pressure and pain, Tsunade pushes herself more, and thus she tends to move faster. As Orochimaru impales her with his sword, she manages to blitz him despite her condition. While Kakashis movements are limited due to his arm being stuck in Tsunades chest, she easily do the same thing. Throwing a quick strike which he cannot dodge. Even if that fails, Tsunade will have been pushed to the limit by that stage, to the extent that she can move around at the speeds she did against Manda, being able to intercept him mid-bite with a sword at least 100 times her own weight. Landing a rashinsho or a simple strike would be all too possible even for Kakashi. 

Furthermore, while Tsunade is jumping around at great speeds throwing strikes which cause great damage to the ground, not only will Kakashi be doing his best to dodge her initial strike, but also jump out of the way of the debris and earth which will potentially pelt him. It would seem very unlikely to me that Kakashi would try to use a Kamui while jumping around and trying to dodge. He has never done such a thing to my knowledge, even when 'blood-lusted' in such a scenario. However, if and when he does use Kamui, Tsunade will not be able to dodge. She needs to have taken Kakashi out before she really drives him into using it, otherwise she will lose arms, legs or even her head, and be unable to fight on. In this scenario, it could really go either way.​
Neji vs. Tsunade ( By the reviewer and 'TheFirstHokageOfTheWood')

To be brief: Neji doesn't have a chance at beating her. The classic arguments always revolve around either Rotation, which can be destroyed with a punch from her (which KN0 was able to do despite his strength being a fraction of Tsunade's), or she can knock him off balance with a ground pound and follow up to kill him. The other arguments are just as inconceivable. 64 Palms is a nice idea, but Neji has to back up and get into a specific position and then strike, where Tsunade is all too liable to destroy the ground below him or Ranshishou him. With evasion and knowledge skills, I'd have a hard time believing Neji would be able to accurately shut off all of her chakra points without her getting a debilitating strike in that'd most likely paralyze him.

Then we have the fact that his Kaiten can cause internal damage. Suffice to say, it's only feats so far have been on Part One time-skip Hinata. A part one Naruto was able to fight through most of his chakra points being disabled, and, yet, Tsunade was able to tank an attack he couldn't (Chakra Scalpels). To say she'd be affected by Neji's finger pokes when she's one of the sturdiest fighters.

Tsunade utterly stomps. No competition. At all.​


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## Melodie (May 18, 2012)

Gai vs. Tsunade (By the reviewer, And is a famous match-up.)

I don't believe that I have to put into much regarding this match-up. It is all about when will Tsunade summon katsuyu, and given that it is completely in-character for her to use Kuchiyose before her opponent utilising to one too should be a plus, in favour of Tsunade (_1_). You could see in that link that Tsunade utilised to Katsuyu the moment she got over his fear of blood, and used it before Jiraiya or Orochimaru thinking about utilising to summons. Once Katsuyu is out, Gai has no chance of winning, as close-quarter-combat oriented shinobi's shouldn't be able to harm Katsuyu, no matter how skilled and powerful they're, It would just a be a fruitless attempt.



> Tsunade blitz a stupid minded weak Oro



I don't see how you're claiming that a genius like Orochimaru, is an idiot. As for being tired/weak. We have to put into consideration that everyone that was in the Sannin was equally hindered. However, in that condition that Tsunade was in (being stabbed by the kusanagi no tsurugi three times and damaged from Kabuto's chakra scalpels), she was in a bad shape, way worse than Orochimaru's, and despite that, she was still able to blitz him, even though he was watching her.



> It's a baseless point to argue because Madara hasn't exactly had the opportunity to gauge Ei's strength and speed while in V2 has he



_he did see Ei's strength and speed while being in V2_



> t's clear that Ei's been holding back because of the obvious abilities of the Preta Path



_He wasn't_. And he doesn't have knowledge of preta path. It was as clear as the Sun that Tsunade is stronger than Ei, Kishi had to go all the way later on and point-out that directly.



> so he's had to rely on Onoki making him lighter



He did not think of that. That was Ooinki's strategy.



> Ppl should be smarter than this



People should be smarter than this.​


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## Rios (May 18, 2012)

If you want your long posts to be read by someone, use the standard forum font. Nobody likes the sudden change and most of them will ignore it(like I am about to do). No offense meant.

Anyway I am still disappointed he never used that iconic page with her being revealed as the legendary slacker and all guys being very happy about that.


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## DeK3iDE (May 18, 2012)

> he did see Ei's strength and speed while being in V2


*buzzer* wrong. What you're referring to is his standard V1 state. That is not Ei at V2. This is him at V2_He wasn't_. The way to tell is that compared to V1 where his hair is still place, V2 is the form that makes him look like he's gone SSJ2 where his hair portrudes outwardly. And since he's been seen all this time with his normal cornrows hairstyle he has not even went V2. At the most he' put out about enough power that he used in delivering the Raiger Bomb on Sasuke and that was when he was still in V1 





> He wasn't. And he doesn't have knowledge of preta path. It was as clear as the Sun that Tsunade is stronger than Ei, Kishi had to go all the way later on and point-out that directly.


If you're done with twisting my post, i never said he knew about Preta Path's ability. What i said was that it's obvious he hasn't gone all out *considering* what it does. And matter of fact, you proved my point exactly because he said verbatem "i've got to *up the speed to get enough power to crush his guard*. Did he go all out? No. So you didn't prove jacksquat with your argument 





> He did not think of that. That was Ooinki's strategy.


excuse me. Where did you get the idea that i said that when I said "he's had to rely on Onoki to make him lighter". When did you ever see me post that it was Ei's idea to do so


> People should be smarter than this.


Ppl should be smarter than this, but if you can't understand anything about actually showing proof or analyzing a situation then it's apparent some ppl are not


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## Golden Circle (May 19, 2012)

What's with people posting reviews "other people" post on youtube or reddit and crossposting it here? Don't they know crossposting is against the rules?


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## spiritmight (May 19, 2012)

Who keeps one-starring this thread?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 19, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Much more than Tsunade does, which in itself is an issue. Thus far her abilities have basically been limited to charging headfirst at an enemy and then healing when that doesn't work. That's an abysmal tactic.  (I am basing this on her recent performance against Madara.)



Tsunade has shown more jutsus than any of them. This is not up for debate. She has numerous ways to heal herself, several offensive forms of medical ninjutsu, one of the most powerful summons in the verse, she is a taijutsu master, and she is a poisons expect. 



> Yes. Truth



No. Jiraiya had died only several minutes before then and Tsunade had no idea he was dead. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. 



> Nothing shows that they were expecting him. Nothing shows that Konoha was excepting him either. Information about his bodies wasn't distributed or anything despite Tsunade having about a week to prepare.



They did have a plan. Pein defeated the plan because Itachi had told him how Konoha's intruder detection system works and managed to catch them off guard. Naruto was supposed to fight Pein the moment he arrived but Danzo fucked it up by killing Kosuke. She told Naruto and Kakashi everything she knew of Pein's abilities, and other than Gai (who she might have told) nobody else in the village is capable of influencing a fight at that level. 



> Nagato was able to move a wheelchair across the fire nation right up to a hill next to Konoha. That suggests that there were absolutely no sensors stationed between him and Konoha.



You expect Konoha to have a sensor everywhere for thousands of miles, for them to detect a chakra they have never felt before, and for the Akatsuki to not have a way around it? None of the villages or nations have shown that ability. The Akatsuki took all of their Jinchuriki because the idea of posting all knowing sensors everywhere throughout an entire country is ridiculous.



> She doesn't know the location. Nobody besides the frogs does. She would have told Pain that Naruto is at Myoboku being trained by the sages. That gives Pain enough to stop attacking and leave peacefully.



I forgot to tell you with the last post, that Pein already knew where Naruto was by the time Tsunade pissed him off. 

Pein was not leaving peacefully. He hated Konoha because they killed his parents.



> A hell of a lot more than Naruto could do on his own



You're telling me that a group of fodder can track Pein and do better against him than Naruto? LOL!!!


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## Rios (May 19, 2012)

I 5 starred it but it wasnt enough. Too many high ratings are needed for it to jump one notch :/


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## Ryuzaki (May 19, 2012)

spiritmight said:


> Who keeps one-starring this thread?



You mean to tell me, you can't tell by the fact it's 23 pages long?


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## Torpedo Titz (May 19, 2012)

5 star thread.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 19, 2012)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> It's a baseless point to argue because Madara hasn't exactly had the opportunity to gauge Ei's strength and speed while in V2 has he? It's clear that Ei's been holding back because of the obvious abilities of the Preta Path so he's had to rely on Onoki making him lighter. Ppl should be smarter than this



Madara was hit by Raikage's attack without Susano, he simply blocked it. That was when Tsunade was healing Gaara and Onoki, at the very start of the fight.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 19, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Tsunade has shown more jutsus than any of them. This is not up for debate. She has numerous ways to heal herself, several offensive forms of medical ninjutsu, one of the most powerful summons in the verse, she is a taijutsu master, and she is a poisons expect.



It's true that she has shown more jutsu than all of the off panel characters we are talking about, how very perceptive of you. I am of course making assumptions that the clan leaders know the techniques they taught to their children, but there is no proof that they were the only ones teaching them or that the techniques are not their own. So yes, I am basing my opinion entirely off assumptions about the strengths of the clan leaders based on the strength of their children. Because there is no way for me to prove you wrong or for you to prove me wrong I'm just going to drop this. 



> No. Jiraiya had died only several minutes before then and Tsunade had no idea he was dead. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.



We don't know how much time passed, all we know is that Jiraiya was dead and Tsunade was drinking. Do you think getting drunk is a normal part of Tsunade's daily routine?



> They did have a plan. Pein defeated the plan because Itachi had told him how Konoha's intruder detection system works and managed to catch them off guard. Naruto was supposed to fight Pein the moment he arrived but Danzo fucked it up by killing Kosuke.



That's a bad plan. "They have Itachi, one of our former shinobi, let's not update our security system for 10 years." That's not just a bad plan, that's the kind of a plan that gets you killed and everybody else laughing at how stupid you are. If that was Tsunade's plan I will claim right here and now that she either has a drinking or an intelligence problem. I think she was simply incompetent and didn't have anything planned.



> She told Naruto and Kakashi everything she knew of Pein's abilities, and other than Gai (who she might have told) nobody else in the village is capable of influencing a fight at that level.



So Chouji and Chouza didn't team up with Kakashi to put up and even fight against two of Pain's strongest bodies? Konohamaru didn't solo a body on his own? If the shinobi Tsunade sent out for a counter attack couldn't do anything why did she send them out?



> You expect Konoha to have a sensor everywhere for thousands of miles, for them to detect a chakra they have never felt before, and for the Akatsuki to not have a way around it? None of the villages or nations have shown that ability. The Akatsuki took all of their Jinchuriki because the idea of posting all knowing sensors everywhere throughout an entire country is ridiculous.



1. I would expect a competent leader to send out patrols and station sensors on several of the paths between Konoha and the Rain village. Remember how the Sand village sent out shinobi to various locations when Gaara was kidnapped? 

2. Sending out scouts and gathering intelligence is ridiculous? Are you sure? If you want to track down Akatsuki than you can do so using sensors, it's not that hard they wear uniforms. 



> I forgot to tell you with the last post, that Pein already knew where Naruto was by the time Tsunade pissed him off.
> 
> Pein was not leaving peacefully. He hated Konoha because they killed his parents.



Greatest cliffhanger of all time
Greatest cliffhanger of all time
Greatest cliffhanger of all time
Pain was about to leave when Tsunade pissed him off, I'm suggesting that she should have told him Naruto's location and smiled until he left. 

Nagato was indeed pissed off at Konoha, he was under the opinion that Konoha's wars in the middle of his nation caused a great deal of pain to the inhabitants of the land, more so than it did for the villagers in Konoha who were primarily removed from the fighting and civilian casualties. Tsunade basically said that it was bullshit and that Konoha had it just as bad. Which was not only wrong but also ill-mannered. 



> You're telling me that a group of fodder can track Pein and do better against him than Naruto? LOL!!!



You must have missed the part where I said that they should have waited for Naruto to come back. I'm suggesting that a competent leader would tell Pain whatever he wants to hear and let him leave the village. When Naruto comes back they can organize a team to go and hunt down Pain. This would allow them to distribute newly gathered information, heal up and organize their forces. But most importantly it would move the fight away from Konoha.


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## DeK3iDE (May 19, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Madara was hit by Raikage's attack without Susano, he simply blocked it. That was when Tsunade was healing Gaara and Onoki, at the very start of the fight.


My point was saying was that contrary to popular belief, Ei was not going all out at that moment the way he did at the tail end of his fight against Sasuke


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## raizen28 (May 19, 2012)

Well a lot mustve voted down the thread.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 19, 2012)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> My point was saying was that contrary to popular belief, Ei was not going all out at that moment the way he did at the tail end of his fight against Sasuke



Ah I see, that's a fair point. Also even if Ei is weaker than Tsunade it is still possible that his speed allows him to hit harder.


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## bleakwinter (May 19, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> She got drunk enough to puke in the middle of the day when Jiraiya invited her out for a drink. Are you going to say that's perfectly normal for a person in her position?
> 
> Her character isn't being doubted here, we are discussing her qualifications for the Hokage title.


So then why did you refute my original post then? My original post had nothing to do with her qualifications as Hokage. I was speaking solely about her character. This is my original post:
________________________________________
"So Tsunade sucks because she's actually a humanistic character that has flaws, imperfections, and is not just a walking Mary Sue whose perfect in every way and always knows the right answer? (i.e Itachi, Kakashi, Madara, Naruto). She's one of the very few characters whose attitude/actions doesn't make me roll my eyes at how cheesy it is. IMO, one of the very few characters who was actually well-designed (At least compared to typical Shounen characters)
________________________________________
That post was 100% about her character, so naturally when you attempted to refute it, I assumed that you were trying to doubt her character as well. 



> If Naruto couldn't get past the Raikage he would either be killed or captured by Sasuke. Killing Naruto would have prevented the enemy from reaching their goals.


Killing Naruto also would've meant no one would have been able to:

-Stop Tobi's Jinchuuriki paths
-Distinguish the white Zetsu clones from actually Shinobi
-Stop the resurrected Kage
-Stop Sasuke

As a result? The Shinobi alliance loses the war. 



> He hired them for the sake of the village, at the time there was no indication that they would gather the Bijuu and threaten the world. Remember the Akatsuki only started gathering the Bijuu recently.


Danzo made small children and families kill each other essentially for the sake of the village, when at the time, there was no indication that one of those children would grow up and threaten the world with Edo tensei (Kabuto). Just because it's for the sake of the village doesn't make it any less of a mistake. 



> Being able to land a single hit can be a big deal, I'd even say that most fights are decided with a single attack. For Tsunade it is even more difficult to land a hit because she is rather slow and predictable. Neji has a great deal of experience fighting a much more skilled and much faster Lee. Shino has bug clones.


I would say that White Zetsu clones and 30% water clones are slow and predictable, yet Neji was hit by both. I just don't physically see how she will be unable to land the one strike she would need in order to end Neji when much weaker entities have been able to.



> How so? How would Pain find the mountain if nobody knows where it is? It would have taken Pain days if not months to find it. Plenty of time to prepare an ambush with Konoha's finest backing up Naruto.







> They do not have to fight alone, and Tsunade knew about the abilities of the bodies ahead of time so that would certainly make things easier.


They would have to fight alone actually, since everyone else in their village would be dead or too injured to fight after Shinra Tensei destroys the village.



> Kakashi was able to come close to defeating the Deva realm with Chouji and Chouza as backup, so I think it isn't much of a stretch to say that any other kage with some back up could take on Pain. For example, the Raikage could have Shii blind the bodies with his genjutsu and A could take out Deva then and there. After that the fight is basically over.



I think you're centralizing Deva Realm as the end-all-be-all in defeating Pain. Even the weakest body, Naraka, basically soloed two village Jounin [scan] (That could easily be Shii getting killed in that scan, since he has no reaction feats and was nearly blindsided by Suigetsu).

You do realize that Deva realm didn't use his powers even once when Pain killed Jiraiya? Not only that, but Deva couldn't even use his powers through the first half of Naruto vs. Pain, but still forced Naruto to exhaust Sage Mode (Before he needed to utilize his shadow clone to re-enter Sage Mode). Once again, just because Deva dies doesn't making defeating the other five bodies a cake walk when we've clearly seen how efficient the other bodies are even without Deva's interference. 

Regarding your specific example, a more accurate comparison would be if Pain first used mass Shinra Tensei to destroy the entire cloud village and *then* fight Raikage, since that was the circumstance that Tsunade had to deal with.  In that case, everyone in the village would probably die except Raikage himself (Due to his durability) since Raikage has no way to defend his village from a widespread attack. Raikage has no way to deal with pain's shared vision, as even Naruto needed the help of his summons and clones to be able to counter Pain's shared vision. 



> What does healing the village accomplish? So she heals the wounded so what? The people who are killed are still killed and there are a lot more of those than there are of the wounded. Is she going to let Pain kill her people until he runs out of chakra to kill any more? (Oh yeah she did exactly that.)


You're making it sound like Tsunade was just blindly healing the village for the sake of it. She purposely wanted to keep everyone alive until Naruto arrived. Tsunade isn't stupid. She knows that if Jiraiya didn't stand a chance against Pain, then neither would she. She's fully aware of the fact that Naruto is stronger than her as well. Realistically, any other of the current living Kage would've gotten slaughtered if they went up against Pain as I've already explained. None of the other Kage's have a real answer against Mass Shinra Tensei. 



> Pain's biggest advantage is that his enemies have no knowledge of the techniques, Tsunade did.


Full knowledge of someone's techniques only goes so far if you have no way to counter the actual techniques. Onoki had full knowledge of Muu's abilities (Muu was his mentor) and Nidaime Mizukage's abilities, but he would've died against both if not for Naruto and Gaara. Likewise, Naruto was nearly killed when he fought Edo Nagato even with full knowledge (Even with the help of Bee).


> What about it? They were fighting powerful opponents. As apposed to Tsunade. Against Kabuto she was on her knees, I wouldn't call that fighting. On top of that Kabuto was hardly a powerful opponent at the time.


Actually Kabuto was a very powerful opponent by Part I standards. He was canonically stated by Orochimaru to be on Kakashi's level. Also, unless we're reading a different Manga, you do realize that Kabuto would've died against Tsunade had she hypothetically not had a fear of blood, correct?



> Against Pain she needed to be saved, she never so much as put up a fight.


She wasted all of her Chakra protecting everyone else. Of course she couldn't put up a fight. Again, you're underestimating the circumstances she had to deal with. Do you really think any other Kage would've done any better after having the entire village obliterated by Shinra tensei along with them in it?




> Against Madara she is basically screwed, it's in no way shape or form an even fight.


All five Kage are basically screwed and it isn't even a fight, even while taking all five of them into account. Why would you just single out Tsunade alone when it's clear that the other Kage are just as helpless against Madara as her? 

If it weren't for Tsunade then Gaara, Onoki, and Mei wouldn't even be in a position to continue fighting considering she's had to heal them throughout the fight. Not only that, Madara was pressured into taking things a bit more seriously by utilizing clones all because of the hit Tsunade landed on them that hollowed out half of his body.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 19, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> So then why did you refute my original post then? My original post had nothing to do with her qualifications as Hokage. I was speaking solely about her character. This is my original post:
> ________________________________________
> "So Tsunade sucks because she's actually a humanistic character that has flaws, imperfections, and is not just a walking Mary Sue whose perfect in every way and always knows the right answer? (i.e Itachi, Kakashi, Madara, Naruto). She's one of the very few characters whose attitude/actions doesn't make me roll my eyes at how cheesy it is. IMO, one of the very few characters who was actually well-designed (At least compared to typical Shounen characters)
> ________________________________________
> That post was 100% about her character, so naturally when you attempted to refute it, I assumed that you were trying to doubt her character as well.



I was explaining the video to you, the flaws she has make her a bad candidate for the Hokage position. Her eligibility for the Hokage title is being discussed not her character. 



> Killing Naruto also would've meant no one would have been able to:
> 
> -Stop Tobi's Jinchuuriki paths
> -Distinguish the white Zetsu clones from actually Shinobi
> ...



If he couldn't get past Ei he couldn't do most of those things either. The Shinobi Alliance would have lost either way, at least killing Naruto would have resulted in the other side being stalled. 



> Danzo made small children and families kill each other essentially for the sake of the village, when at the time, there was no indication that one of those children would grow up and threaten the world with Edo tensei (Kabuto). Just because it's for the sake of the village doesn't make it any less of a mistake.


 
How is Danzo related to Onoki hiring Akatsuki? I don't see the connection between murdering children and hiring mercenaries. 



> I would say that White Zetsu clones and 30% water clones are slow and predictable, yet Neji was hit by both. I just don't physically see how she will be unable to land the one strike she would need in order to end Neji when much weaker entities have been able to.



The Kisame clone attacked while Neji was in the air and thus unable to dodge. The Zetsu clone attacked by wrapping itself around Neji which is very different from the Taijutsu attacks which Tsunade uses and Neji regularly spars against. How did Naruto hit Deva realm with the rasengan when he couldn't hit him with FRS? Special circumstances, Neji was not prepared for those attacks. 



> They would have to fight alone actually, since everyone else in their village would be dead or too injured to fight after Shinra Tensei destroys the village.



If Tsunade had a bit more tact Pain would hot have destroyed the village. 



> I think you're centralizing Deva Realm as the end-all-be-all in defeating Pain. Even the weakest body, Naraka, basically soloed two village Jounin [scan] (That could easily be Shii getting killed in that scan, since he has no reaction feats and was nearly blindsided by Suigetsu).



Naraka got defeated by Konohamaru, Ei would smash it apart in a matter of a few seconds. 



> You do realize that Deva realm didn't use his powers even once when Pain killed Jiraiya? Not only that, but Deva couldn't even use his powers through the first half of Naruto vs. Pain, but still forced Naruto to exhaust Sage Mode (Before he needed to utilize his shadow clone to re-enter Sage Mode). Once again, just because Deva dies doesn't making defeating the other five bodies a cake walk when we've clearly seen how efficient the other bodies are even without Deva's interference.



The other bodies pose a threat as long as you don't know how to fight them. Jiraiya ripped right though 3 bodies without fully understanding their abilities. Deva is the powerhouse. The robot body, Animal path, and Human path can stand their own against Jounin. Fatty and Naraka are pretty weak. Once Deva is gone there is nothing stopping somebody of Ei's caliber from tearing the heads off of the others. 

One of the reasons Pain is so dangerous is because the 6 bodies have amazing teamwork, however Ei and his bodyguards have pretty decent teamwork themselves. On top of the Shii is a sensor so it's possible he could find Nagato. 



> Regarding your specific example, a more accurate comparison would be if Pain first used mass Shinra Tensei to destroy the entire cloud village and *then* fight Raikage, since that was the circumstance that Tsunade had to deal with.  In that case, everyone in the village would probably die except Raikage himself (Due to his durability) since Raikage has no way to defend his village from a widespread attack. Raikage has no way to deal with pain's shared vision, as even Naruto needed the help of his summons and clones to be able to counter Pain's shared vision.



That's not accurate at all, Pain was attacking the village for a while before he nuked Konoha. Tsunade sat on her ass, why would a competent Hokage like Ei do that? He would counterattack and defeat the bodies while they were separated. 



> You're making it sound like Tsunade was just blindly healing the village for the sake of it. She purposely wanted to keep everyone alive until Naruto arrived. Tsunade isn't stupid. She knows that if Jiraiya didn't stand a chance against Pain, then neither would she. She's fully aware of the fact that Naruto is stronger than her as well. Realistically, any other of the current living Kage would've gotten slaughtered if they went up against Pain as I've already explained. None of the other Kage's have a real answer against Mass Shinra Tensei.



Waiting for Naruto was a poor decision, he didn't finish his training and he couldn't take on Pain. As you may recall Naruto was defeated and then saved from the Fox by Minato. But there was no way Tsunade could have factored in Minato, and without Minato she was basically handing Naruto over to Pain. 



> Full knowledge of someone's techniques only goes so far if you have no way to counter the actual techniques. Onoki had full knowledge of Muu's abilities (Muu was his mentor) and Nidaime Mizukage's abilities, but he would've died against both if not for Naruto and Gaara. Likewise, Naruto was nearly killed when he fought Edo Nagato even with full knowledge (Even with the help of Bee).



That's why you need to plan ahead. Tsunade knew about the abilities, she knew Konoha would have to face them sooner or later, she did nothing to prepare for it. 



> Actually Kabuto was a very powerful opponent by Part I standards. He was canonically stated by Orochimaru to be on Kakashi's level. Also, unless we're reading a different Manga, you do realize that Kabuto would've died against Tsunade had she hypothetically not had a fear of blood, correct?



Yes of course he would die, it's not like she tired herself out trying to kill him previously. Things would clearly be different if she tried to kill him without her fear of blood. 

Kabuto got beat by Naruto, he was a disappointment by Part 1 standards.


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## Butterfly (May 19, 2012)

While the man and his method of delivery is usually funny, his points, as always, are shit. 

Now then. /gets on hardhat. Let's go to work.




Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yea the dude is funny, also tsunade does suck blame kishi her introduction made me dislike her, and getting spanked by kabuto did not impress me either.


How did she get spanked by Kabuto? Kabuto who needed handouts[1], prior preparation, and exhausting[2] his opponent before engaging her to even _touch_[3] an out of practice who he admitted inferiority to[4] practically state the opposite. Kabuto never spanked her. She was able to push him to the brink to the point where he had to use her phobia against her _just to restrain her, an objective he was failing to do until he used her phobia_. It's clever, but it doesn't mean he's stronger. If she didn't have that phobia, just what would he bring her down with?



> Regardless tsunade has little screen time, and kabuto, pain, and Madara have taught her a lesson already so it's whatever lets just say I'm neutral if she dies or lives I don't care.


Kabuto's lesson was, "You should have sided with us and Orochimaru", guess who got an ass-kicking and a strong no six chapters later[1].
Pain's lesson was, "You shall know the true value of Pain, and Naruto can't beat me."  Guess what happened to Pain? He learned the error of his ways, and revived Konoha's civillians (which many more would have died if it wasn't for Tsunade's actions).
Madara was, "The will of fire is meaningless and you suck." Guess who already learned this lesson (Hashirama winning against him previously) once more and retracted his statement about Tsunade[3].

Yeah. They sure taught her a lesson all right . 



Santoryu said:


> Also, Kakashi was a few seconds away from being hokage, *he never* declined the position, in fact, he knew it was best for the village so accepted immediately.


Well, of course you're going to do that when the other Kage is inside a comatose. The Land of Fire Daimyo was still nervous over everything and wanted her to wake up from her coma. He even suggested they should wait awhile for her comatose body to wake up before nominating anyone.

That's right. The leader of the entire country thinks a comatose Tsunade can govern better than most people in the leaf village. 



> Anyone who thinks Kakashi wouldn't make a great hokage should read the manga again, and pay attention this time.


I agree that Kakashi would make a great kage. I don't agree that he'd make a kage as great as Tsunade. He still lacks experience and can come off sort of aloof and suspicious. Tsunade even thought he'd make an excellent Hokage (and coming from her, this does carry weight to it) but Jiraiya disagreed. 



Big Bad Wolf said:


> This guy basically summed up everything i've been saying about Tsunade's fighting and her leadership skills for the longest through an objective view though i have a hard time believing Neji would beat Tsunade. But then again, Kabuto just gave her one good smack and that fight was over



His view is as objective as Judge Judy's opinion on young people. 

What I'm stating should be simple above. He would make an excellent kage, but I dont' think he'd be as great as Tsunade. 

Although, I do agree with one aspect of the video. Tsunade's handling of the village's situation with Sasuke was just clumsy. Although, perhaps after being converted by Naruto's TNJ, she has faith in him to repair Sasuke too. I suppose it's a reasonable decision since she's seen just about every other massive force of power give up with Naruto's bright and not-totally-cliche optimism (A, and Pain being prime examples). 

But to call Tsunade an ineffectual leader or fighter is just dumb. He needs some Suu, LB, GT, GH and Melodie time stat.  

Anyways, why are people bashing the creation of the medical ninja system? That was Tsunade's entire ideal, and it raised the success rate of ninja missions and ninja living to a huge extent. It was revolutionary. Even Young Kakashi calls it, "Konoha's brilliant system" without knowing who created it. But, of course, you all must have missed that part. 

Anyways, I'm going to just leave these links out if anyone wants them. 
 (before you close through the thread, just read it. There are several things she did fantastically as a kage. With her only major slip up being with Sasuke, although, that remains to be seen if it was a true slip up. Letting Sasuke go did let him kill most of the Akatsuki).
, a lovely thread on why she doesn't suck eggs when she fights. 

I wonder if any of you will actually click it but I might as well just link these.


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (May 21, 2012)

^ amazing post right there imo


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## bleakwinter (May 22, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> I was explaining the video to you, the flaws she has make her a bad candidate for the Hokage position. Her eligibility for the Hokage title is being discussed not her character.



Saying a character "sucks" as a whole IS attacking their character though, which is why he shouldn't make that statement in the video title and then proceed to base that statement solely on her qualifications as Hokage (When he sould factor in other things just as their character when claiming she "sucks"). Whether you believe she is eligible for Hokage or not isn't a valid argument for saying she sucks. It's clearly obvious that the video maker is attacking her character, while erroneously using her Hokage candidacy (which has little do with whether a character "sucks" or not in a literary sense) as evidence for that.

Not only that, but there's literally other posters in this thread telling myself (And others) that we should not like Tsunade as a character, which is completely moronic as everyone should be entitled to their own likes/dislikes.



> If he couldn't get past Ei he couldn't do most of those things either. The Shinobi Alliance would have lost either way, at least killing Naruto would have resulted in the other side being stalled.



Naruto wasn't trying to harm Ei. Why are you inferring that Naruto wouldn't be able to get passed Ei if he was serious? A _clone_ of Naruto was able to stop Ei's father, who also had the benefit of being immortal. I doubt the original Naruto would have much trouble with Ei if his intent was to kill.



> How is Danzo related to Onoki hiring Akatsuki? I don't see the connection between murdering children and hiring mercenaries.


Because both were done for the sake of the village, yet ended up adversely affecting everyone in the long run. The point was that just because something was done in good intention doesn't make it any less of a mistake (Of course given that it caused some sort of negative consequence). Yes Tsunade has made mistakes, but at least the consequences of her mistakes were relegated and confined to only the leaf village. The other Kage (Danzo and Onoki for example) have made mistakes that negatively affected the entire world as a whole. 



> The Kisame clone attacked while Neji was in the air and thus unable to dodge.


So by that logic, if Tsunade attacks Neji while he's in air, he'll also be unable to dodge.



> The Zetsu clone attacked by wrapping itself around Neji which is very different from the Taijutsu attacks which Tsunade uses and Neji regularly spars against.


Tsunade's finger is capable of fracturing the earth. If any part of her connects with Neji's anatomy, whether it be a punch or wrapping her arms around him, he's crushed. Neji does not have a means of tearing her muscles to distable her strength either. 



> How did Naruto hit Deva realm with the rasengan when he couldn't hit him with FRS? Special circumstances, Neji was not prepared for those attacks.


That was thoroughly explained in the manga. Naruto was able to hit Deva realm with Rasengan because he purposely exploited Shinra Tensei's 5-second cooldown that time (By forcing him to waste a Shinra Tensei), whereas he didn't do so when he threw FRS. It was explained why Deva was hit by Rasengan. Can you explain why Neji was not prepared for those attacks, but is now suddenly prepared to fight a Kage-level Ninja? 



> If Tsunade had a bit more tact Pain would hot have destroyed the village.


...And if Ei had a bit more common sense, he wouldn't have lost an arm. 

Also if Pain had not destroyed the village, then Shinra Tensei would've been usable immediately once he engaged combat with Naruto. The result? Sage mode Naruto would've lost against Pain even quicker. 



> Naraka got defeated by Konohamaru, Ei would smash it apart in a matter of a few seconds.


Ei would destroy Naraka. Shii would lose. The point of me stating that was because you stated that Ei could probably defeat Rikudou Pain with assistance from other villagers. I'm merely illustrating how outside help will hardly make a difference, considering most of the other villagers are either fodder or are named characters with few feats. Even the weaker bodies are capable of taking out Ei's assistants handily.  



> The other bodies pose a threat as long as you don't know how to fight them. Jiraiya ripped right though 3 bodies without fully understanding their abilities. Deva is the powerhouse. The robot body, Animal path, and Human path can stand their own against Jounin. Fatty and Naraka are pretty weak. Once Deva is gone there is nothing stopping somebody of Ei's caliber from tearing the heads off of the others.


If it were that easy, then as stated before, Naruto should've theoretically tore the heads off of all the other bodies since Deva path was basically inert (Unable to use his powers) through the first half of their fight. Obviously that didn't happen. The other five paths are more than capable of handing Kage-level Shinobi without Deva. 

Ei cannot do a million things at once. He cannot avoid a horde of animal summons (Along with a dividing, immortal Cerberus), avoid building-busting lasers, avoid a soul-ripping Taijutsu user, blindside their shared-vision, and keep Naraka path from resurrecting all at once. Every single one of those things I've listed can be done without Deva path's powers. 

Ei cannot use clones and does not have smoke bombs, both of which were required to negate Pain's shared vision. How will Ei even reliably hit Pain with no means of obstructing the shared vision? They would simply dodge all of his attacks (Ei is fast, but even Suigetsu and Juugo were both able to react to his speed and block his attacks in a timely fashion). 



> One of the reasons Pain is so dangerous is because the 6 bodies have amazing teamwork, however Ei and his bodyguards have pretty decent teamwork themselves. On top of the Shii is a sensor so it's possible he could find Nagato.


Really, the only bodyguard that is decent at all is Darui (Shii was blindsided and was nearly beheaded by Suigetsu, and also fell into Sasuke's Genjutsu). Aside from that, Darui and Ei simply get overwhelmed by Pain and his summons. 

Naruto and Jiraiya can also sense while in sage mode (And have better feats than Shii). Naruto had to forcibly stab himself with Pain's rods to detect his location. There's no way that Shii can find the real Nagato in a timely fashion. 

Also, what about Chibaku Tensei, something that Ei truly has no answer to?



> That's not accurate at all, Pain was attacking the village for a while before he nuked Konoha. Tsunade sat on her ass, why would a competent Hokage like Ei do that? He would counterattack and defeat the bodies while they were separated.


Yes. As stated before, she was healing because that was the smartest thing to do to mitigate Pain's damage to the village until Naruto arrives. Ei would counterattack Pain and would die foolishly, just like he needlessly counterattacked Sasuke and lost an arm (When that could've been completely avoided). All you're doing is substituting Tsunade's flaws with a character who is even more flawed.

I still don't see why you believe Ei and his assistants can bring down Pain. You're undermining the massive circumstances in Naruto's favor that allowed him to beat Pain. This should be evident from how the Rinnegan's powers _simultaneously_ handled RM Naruto and Killer Bee (Who is arguably stronger than Ei) and would've killed them if not for Itachi. It's true that Nagato had the benefit of being immortal, but Naruto and Bee weren't even able to injure him at all (Indicating that even if he was mortal, it would be no different)



> Waiting for Naruto was a poor decision, he didn't finish his training and he couldn't take on Pain. As you may recall Naruto was defeated and then saved from the Fox by Minato. But there was no way Tsunade could have factored in Minato, and without Minato she was basically handing Naruto over to Pain.


How is waiting for Naruto a poor decision? He's the strongest person in the leaf village and has the help of two other sages (Fukusaku and Shima). 

Actually, Pain would've died against Naruto regardless of Minato or not. Think about what Minato's presence had done. It caused Naruto to be able to supress the Kyubi Chakra and return to his normal form. If Minato's wasn't present at all, Pain would also die since he does not stand a chance against an unsuppressed KN7 Naruto (Something that was capable of busting out of Chibaku Tensei, Pain's strongest technique).



> That's why you need to plan ahead. Tsunade knew about the abilities, she knew Konoha would have to face them sooner or later, she did nothing to prepare for it.


In specifics, how could she have prepared? I suppose she could've possible withheld Team Gai so that they could also fight Pain, but it's not as if she knew the exact date that Pan would attack. Aside from that, there isn't much preparation that can be done in the face of someone who is capable of obliterating an entire village in one-attack.  



> Yes of course he would die, it's not like she tired herself out trying to kill him previously. Things would clearly be different if she tried to kill him without her fear of blood.
> 
> Kabuto got beat by Naruto, he was a disappointment by Part 1 standards.



Well since you're aware of that fact, I don't understand why you would cite Kabuto 'defeating' her as lack of combat ability on Tsunade's part, when it was obvious that this only occurred due to a massive handicap.


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## Pyre's Plight (May 22, 2012)

> How did she get spanked by Kabuto? Kabuto who needed handouts[1], prior preparation, and exhausting[2] his opponent before engaging her to even touch[3] an out of practice who he admitted inferiority to[4] practically state the opposite. Kabuto never spanked her. She was able to push him to the brink to the point where he had to use her phobia against her just to restrain her, an objective he was failing to do until he used her phobia. It's clever, but it doesn't mean he's stronger. If she didn't have that phobia, just what would he bring her down with?



Nothing against Tsunade here, but she did think to herself that Kabuto probably exceeded her in her prime. Kabuto did his job well. Of course he couldn't beat her head on, so he just went for another option. The fact that he couldn't beat her head on and had to resort to other tactics was supposed to show how good Tsunade was...but it didn't really come off as that.


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## Melodie (May 22, 2012)

Pyre's Plight said:


> Nothing against Tsunade here, but she did think to herself that Kabuto probably exceeded her in her prime.


​


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## tsunadefan (May 22, 2012)

i just have to lol so hard at the entire thread. it was so deliciously hilarious that i read every post throughout the entire thread! btw, nice comebacks from tsunade defenders, they were lulz worthy.

what was also funny was the ironic claims of bias from tsunade opposers in the thread when some of their bias talk severely underestimate tsunade's combat ability. the arguements in this thread and in the video against tsunade are also shallow, close-minded and just plain invalid. 

tsunade's combat ability and tactics are high, kage level tier imo. the evidence is there in her hype and more importantly, in her feats. tsunade is also quite a good hokage imo as can be seen in the decision she makes for the village and the outcomes of those decisions.


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## Barioth (May 22, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> i just have to lol so hard at the entire thread. it was so deliciously hilarious that i read every post throughout the entire thread! btw, nice comebacks from tsunade defenders, they were lulz worthy.
> 
> what was also funny was the ironic claims of bias from tsunade opposers in the thread when some of their bias talk severely underestimate tsunade's combat ability. the arguements in this thread and in the video against tsunade are also shallow, close-minded and just plain invalid.
> 
> tsunade's combat ability and tactics are high, kage level tier imo. the evidence is there in her hype and more importantly, in her feats. tsunade is also quite a good hokage imo as can be seen in the decision she makes for the village and the outcomes of those decisions.



^ The irony. Is this your first real effort post? You are not convincing me. Or should I say Strawman strawman.


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## tsunadefan (May 22, 2012)

Anar G said:


> ^ The irony. Is this your first real effort post? You are not convincing me. Or should I say Strawman strawman.



at least i know when my OPINIONS aren't 100% FACTS. that was hardly a post of 100% effort and i don't think that there is any need in convincing someone like you. it's gonna be really hard to break someone's hard pressed ideas. even though they're ludicrous. tsunade supporters have been trying for a while to convince her haters of her worth and what she would truly deserve. the debates are just for fun for me at this point.


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## Barioth (May 22, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> at least i know when my OPINIONS aren't 100% FACTS. that was hardly a post of 100% effort and i don't think that there is any need in convincing someone like you. it's gonna be really hard to break someone's hard pressed ideas. even though they're ludicrous. tsunade supporters have been trying for a while to convince her haters of her worth and what she would truly deserve. the debates are just for fun for me at this point.



Opinions maybe no Facts, but can be support it by Facts.

They are no golden mean between Tsunade supporter and opposers. 

The conclusion I disagree so far: 

Person A: Tsunade isn't as bad as people made her out to be. Maybe True. 

Person B: Tsunade isn't as great as people made her out to be. Maybe true. 

Both sides can't be right.

Both sides have the right and chance to see each others view. The individual that doesn't do it and claim they are correct are just ignorant. 

At least we can agree debate is enjoyable at this point.


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## tsunadefan (May 22, 2012)

Anar G said:


> Opinions maybe no Facts, but can be support it by Facts.
> 
> They are no golden mean between Tsunade supporter and opposers.
> 
> ...



opinions are not fact, but can be supported by them yes. but in the opponents-of-everything-tsunade case, there "facts" aren't usually enough evidence to dismiss her as, i have read, "a glorified fodder" and the worst kage ever. 

i hope your not insinuating that i am the ignorant person. or maybe i am just over paranoid today. meh.

and yeah, we can at least agree it is fun.


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## Ranma Saotome (May 22, 2012)

Tsunade is heavily underrated. I don't have an issue with the guy's opinion, and he has a point with some of his remarks, but my thoughts on parts 2, 3, as part 1 is more or less a summary of her background..

Second Point) First, is it fair to place Tsunade's decision making as a Hokage on such a lower scale than the others? Tsunade never had an ambition to become Hokage. They basically sought her out and damn near pleaded/pestered her to take up the role. 

Secondly, Hiruzen is an awesome shinobi, but leader..? Just look at the sheer amount of b.s. that went down on his watch. Danzo. Orochimaru. Nuff said. Tobirama's treatment of the Uchiha set the seeds for the massacre. Minato and Hashirama were great Hokage, imo. They did the best they could do with tough situations. Tsunade trusting Naruto makes sense because so much is invested into him. Jiraiya and Minato, two Shinobi she definitely respect, placed their hopes in him. If it wasn't for Naruto she wouldn't even have chosen to _be_ the Hokage. 

Overall, I think Tsunade has been a great Hokage. In terms of leadership, she listens to her greatest shinobi. Let's say she says, "No, Naruto. Fuck you. Sasuke is dead." Naruto gets pissed off/disappointed, and becomes a missing nin. Things would've gone down such a different and fucked up route. Being dogmatic isn't the only way to lead. Listening to your followers and also considering how your decisions will impact them, as well, is a form of wisdom. Second, is her heart. I highly doubt the Uchiha massacre would've gone down on her watch. She felt the need to be weary of Danzo. She didn't let the Elders bully her. So she listens to Naruto. So what? Better than listening to treacherous Danzo and the Elders.

Third Point) Tsunade is a medical ninja. She's not like Orochimaru or Danzou, who are obsessed with power and being Kages. Look at how much they've fucked their bodies up just for the sake of power. The fame of her whole shinobi career has been centered around medical ninjutsu. She's had people she loves die, because there weren't medical nins on squads. That's why she implemented the need for one on a squad. Powerful and deadly ninjutsu _never fit her ambition._ It's like judging Rock Lee as weak for a lack of ninjutsu. It's like saying that Naruto is a shitty ninja because he doesn't use genjutsu. 

You take a shinobi out of their element, and stack them against other people in their area, of course they won't look as impressive. How good is Kakashi at medical jutsu? How good is Gai at medical jutsu? See what I did there? Her goal/role is to be the medical ninja on the squad, and _if_ she's forced to fight in a one on one scenario, she's still able to at least dodge and hit hard as hell to defend herself. She owned Manda with an enormous blade after all.

Tsunade said what the role of a medic ninja is in battle. When something is your role, it's what you focus on being good at. To survive and not be taken out, no matter what, so you're able to heal others on your squad. That's her goal and her principle in combat. What makes Tsunade famous is her healing and medical jutsu. Offensively speaking? She's able to produce more damage than Raikage _and_ she has a boss summon capable of utilizing acid. So it's not like she's useless in combat ordinarily either.

In my honest opinion, we'll see what Tsunade capable of in this new mode, if Edo Tensei doesn't end. The last chapter we saw her speak on a medical ninja switching to a role of combat instead of focusing on support. It's _exclusively_ for her. It's like a high level cleric in your party saying, "Okay, I'm going to switch to my fighting mode." So it's fair to gauge her abilities now, rather than previously. So far we already know she can inflict more damage than Raikage, and though she's slower it can't be by a shameful margin in this new form she's using if they're being compared. If she was moving ridiculously slower, it'd be met with mockery or scorn by Madara. What he said, instead, was that she's _not_ weak.. but that rushing out could/would get her killed. He said she's _slower_, not slow. It doesn't mean she's super fast, but it definitely implies that she's not some slowpoke when you're being directly compared to someone else, or he'd simply comment on her 'strength'. Why comment on her speed at all if she was slow? 

was about to explode

Anyway, tl;dr. Tsunade is a medical ninja, exclusively, reread the rules she stated.
was about to explode
was about to explode
For the first time ever she's going into _combat mode._ I don't have any proof but those pages show to me that Tsunade is moving way faster than before, just not Raikage level fast.. but that she's stronger instead. It's my opinion, though, and only an opinion so take it as you will. I simply feel that it's way too early to write her off as weak(offensively) in combat, and her leadership has kept Naruto loyal. _Hiruzen's _leadership has Naruto thinking Sasuke's desire to destroy Konoha is _understandable_ and that he could easily see himself in Sasuke's shoes. So I'd say she's doing a pretty good job on that count.


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## Pyre's Plight (May 22, 2012)

Melodie said:


> ​



Whoops. My fault.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 22, 2012)

bleakwinter said:


> Naruto wasn't trying to harm Ei. Why are you inferring that Naruto wouldn't be able to get passed Ei if he was serious? A _clone_ of Naruto was able to stop Ei's father, who also had the benefit of being immortal. I doubt the original Naruto would have much trouble with Ei if his intent was to kill.



I'm saying that Ei's attempt to kill Naruto was justified. If Naruto was weak enough to be killed by Ei than he was weak enough to be captured by Madara. If Naruto and Bee were captured than the whole war would be meaningless and the Shinobi Alliance would lose. 

The fact is that Naruto disregarded orders, to do so is an act of treason which means that Naruto's head belonged on the chopping block. 



> Because both were done for the sake of the village, yet ended up adversely affecting everyone in the long run. The point was that just because something was done in good intention doesn't make it any less of a mistake (Of course given that it caused some sort of negative consequence). Yes Tsunade has made mistakes, but at least the consequences of her mistakes were relegated and confined to only the leaf village. The other Kage (Danzo and Onoki for example) have made mistakes that negatively affected the entire world as a whole.



Come again? How did hiring the Akatsuki negatively affect the entire world? 



> So by that logic, if Tsunade attacks Neji while he's in air, he'll also be unable to dodge.



Yup, but the same can be said about Tsunade. 



> Tsunade's finger is capable of fracturing the earth. If any part of her connects with Neji's anatomy, whether it be a punch or wrapping her arms around him, he's crushed. Neji does not have a means of tearing her muscles to distable her strength either.



Not really, if she hits his finger it might break but he would still be fine. And Tsunade's strength comes from her using chakra, as explained by Kakashi's explanation of Sakura's strength. 



> That was thoroughly explained in the manga. Naruto was able to hit Deva realm with Rasengan because he purposely exploited Shinra Tensei's 5-second cooldown that time (By forcing him to waste a Shinra Tensei), whereas he didn't do so when he threw FRS. It was explained why Deva was hit by Rasengan. Can you explain why Neji was not prepared for those attacks, but is now suddenly prepared to fight a Kage-level Ninja?



Tsunade's attacks are extremely predictable. She attacks head on and she doesn't have the speed to back up those attacks. 

.





> ..And if Ei had a bit more common sense, he wouldn't have lost an arm.
> 
> Also if Pain had not destroyed the village, then Shinra Tensei would've been usable immediately once he engaged combat with Naruto. The result? Sage mode Naruto would've lost against Pain even quicker.



Yay for Tsunade getting her village nuked! Greatest leader evar!

Tsunade: Hey guys, I got a plan. I will piss off the guy killing everybody so that he tires himself out by killing more people, that way when Naruto gets here Pain will be tired and less capable of putting up a fight!
Anbu: That's a great idea! Good thing you always prioritize Naruto's well being at the cost of our lives! Long live Tsunade! 



> Ei would destroy Naraka. Shii would lose. The point of me stating that was because you stated that Ei could probably defeat Rikudou Pain with assistance from other villagers. I'm merely illustrating how outside help will hardly make a difference, considering most of the other villagers are either fodder or are named characters with few feats. Even the weaker bodies are capable of taking out Ei's assistants handily.



I don't see your argument... Are we in agreement that Ei could defeat Pain if he had a handful of skilled shinobi backing him up?



> If it were that easy, then as stated before, Naruto should've theoretically tore the heads off of all the other bodies since Deva path was basically inert (Unable to use his powers) through the first half of their fight. Obviously that didn't happen. The other five paths are more than capable of handing Kage-level Shinobi without Deva.



Which is why one of them was defeated by a genin right? 



> Ei cannot do a million things at once. He cannot avoid a horde of animal summons (Along with a dividing, immortal Cerberus), avoid building-busting lasers, avoid a soul-ripping Taijutsu user, blindside their shared-vision, and keep Naraka path from resurrecting all at once. Every single one of those things I've listed can be done without Deva path's powers.



He doesn't have to do it on his own. I never stated that he could defeat Pain on his own. 



> Ei cannot use clones and does not have smoke bombs, both of which were required to negate Pain's shared vision. How will Ei even reliably hit Pain with no means of obstructing the shared vision? They would simply dodge all of his attacks (Ei is fast, but even Suigetsu and Juugo were both able to react to his speed and block his attacks in a timely fashion).



Use Shii's genjutsu which would blind all of them. I'm sure that Ei could figure out a counter to the shared vision given a week of prep time like Tsunade was. After all Ei was prepared for Sasuke's sharingan rather well and he had less information to start with. 



> Really, the only bodyguard that is decent at all is Darui (Shii was blindsided and was nearly beheaded by Suigetsu, and also fell into Sasuke's Genjutsu). Aside from that, Darui and Ei simply get overwhelmed by Pain and his summons.



Shii was focused on finding Karin and was told not to fight. Did you expect him to manhandle Sasuke while delivering a heavenly kick to Suigetsui and finding Karin? 

The Pain bodies are one trick ponies. Once you know the trick most of them become easy targets. 



> Naruto and Jiraiya can also sense while in sage mode (And have better feats than Shii). Naruto had to forcibly stab himself with Pain's rods to detect his location. There's no way that Shii can find the real Nagato in a timely fashion.
> 
> Also, what about Chibaku Tensei, something that Ei truly has no answer to?



So he stands on top of the mini moon until Nagato runs out of chakra... What's the big deal? Never really saw the big danger of the move given the fact that the only thing it did to Naruto was cause him to stand upside down on it.  



> Yes. As stated before, she was healing because that was the smartest thing to do to mitigate Pain's damage to the village until Naruto arrives. Ei would counterattack Pain and would die foolishly, just like he needlessly counterattacked Sasuke and lost an arm (When that could've been completely avoided). All you're doing is substituting Tsunade's flaws with a character who is even more flawed.



I don't see it. Ei is more than capable of taking on any of the 6 bodies on his own. How would the 6 split up bodies contend with Ei, his bodyguard, and Bee?



> I still don't see why you believe Ei and his assistants can bring down Pain. You're undermining the massive circumstances in Naruto's favor that allowed him to beat Pain. This should be evident from how the Rinnegan's powers _simultaneously_ handled RM Naruto and Killer Bee (Who is arguably stronger than Ei) and would've killed them if not for Itachi. It's true that Nagato had the benefit of being immortal, but Naruto and Bee weren't even able to injure him at all (Indicating that even if he was mortal, it would be no different)



Nagato had all of the powers and he could use multiple powers at the same time, it's true that this made him dangerous. The 6 paths can't do that. The 7th path is stuck inside a wheelchair. 



> How is waiting for Naruto a poor decision? He's the strongest person in the leaf village and has the help of two other sages (Fukusaku and Shima).



Because every second they waited more villagers died. 



> Actually, Pain would've died against Naruto regardless of Minato or not. Think about what Minato's presence had done. It caused Naruto to be able to supress the Kyubi Chakra and return to his normal form. If Minato's wasn't present at all, Pain would also die since he does not stand a chance against an unsuppressed KN7 Naruto (Something that was capable of busting out of Chibaku Tensei, Pain's strongest technique).



If Minato did not show up the Kyuubi would have completely taken over Naruto and Naruto would have died at that point. Sure Pain would probably be destroyed but Nagato could come back at a later time and capture the Kyuubi. Or Tobi could do it relatively easily, either way Konoha would have lost its Jinchuriki. 



> In specifics, how could she have prepared? I suppose she could've possible withheld Team Gai so that they could also fight Pain, but it's not as if she knew the exact date that Pan would attack. Aside from that, there isn't much preparation that can be done in the face of someone who is capable of obliterating an entire village in one-attack.



1. Gather her forces, recall the strong shinobi back from missions. 
2. Gather intelligence, send out spies/scouts, offer payment for any information on people wearing Akatsuki cloaks.
3. Spread information, inform the shinobi she gathered of Pain's abilities and the defining traits of each body.
4. Have Shukaku/Shikamaru/Kakashi divide the shinobi into teams.
5. Request aid from the Sand. 
6. Keep an eye on Danzo, make sure he isn't in her office stabbing her messengers. 

That's just off the top of my head. She declared war on the Akatsuki, she should have taken the war seriously. 



> Well since you're aware of that fact, I don't understand why you would cite Kabuto 'defeating' her as lack of combat ability on Tsunade's part, when it was obvious that this only occurred due to a massive handicap.



That was sarcasm, I was saying that she tried to kill him many times before he took advantage of her fear of blood. Her overcoming her fear of blood would not make her any faster or him any slower so she would not be able to hit him. 

When I say that Kabuto "defeated" her I don't mean that he defeated her. I mean that he showed his superior skill by cutting up Tsunade's insides with his chakra scalpels. He could have easily killed her and that shows that her skill was inferior to his. And his was inferior to Naruto's which says a great deal about Tsunade's skill level.




Wow, I hit the max char limit on that one and had to delete a portion. You and I are skilled at writing walls of text. if only our walls would agree with each other.


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## Namikaze Minato (May 23, 2012)

Winged Blade said:


> Second Point) First, *is it fair to place Tsunade's decision making as a Hokage on such a lower scale than the others?* Tsunade never had an ambition to become Hokage. They basically sought her out and damn near pleaded/pestered her to take up the role.


Yes it is , ever since she provoked Pain to blow up Konoha after he warned her not to do that.




> Secondly, Hiruzen is an awesome shinobi, but leader..? Just look at the sheer amount of b.s. that went down on his watch. Danzo. Orochimaru. Nuff said. Tobirama's treatment of the Uchiha set the seeds for the massacre. Minato and Hashirama were great Hokage, imo. They did the best they could do with tough situations. Tsunade trusting Naruto makes sense because so much is invested into him. Jiraiya and Minato, two Shinobi she definitely respect, placed their hopes in him. If it wasn't for Naruto she wouldn't even have chosen to _be_ the Hokage.


Hiruzen has the most reigning time out of all the Hokages , and to be fair had the most issues at his hands , at least in Hiruzen's Era , Danzo couldnt interfere publicly like he did with Tsunade.


> Overall, I think Tsunade has been a great Hokage. In terms of leadership, she listens to her greatest shinobi. Let's say she says, "No, Naruto. Fuck you. Sasuke is dead." Naruto gets pissed off/disappointed, and becomes a missing nin. Things would've gone down such a different and fucked up route. Being dogmatic isn't the only way to lead. Listening to your followers and also considering how your decisions will impact them, as well, is a form of wisdom. Second, is her heart. I highly doubt the Uchiha massacre would've gone down on her watch. She felt the need to be weary of Danzo. She didn't let the Elders bully her. So she listens to Naruto. So what? Better than listening to treacherous Danzo and the Elders.


yes she did let the elders bully her when she accepted Sai in Team 7 after they pressured her , and her leadership sucks since she send Asuma on a mission to fight Akatsuki knowing he's not on their level ,  sure its shinobi's job to sacrifice his life , but not needlessly like that.


> Third Point) Tsunade is a medical ninja. She's not like Orochimaru or Danzou, who are obsessed with power and being Kages. Look at how much they've fucked their bodies up just for the sake of power. The fame of her whole shinobi career has been centered around medical ninjutsu. She's had people she loves die, because there weren't medical nins on squads. That's why she implemented the need for one on a squad. Powerful and deadly ninjutsu _never fit her ambition._ It's like judging Rock Lee as weak for a lack of ninjutsu. It's like saying that Naruto is a shitty ninja because he doesn't use genjutsu.


all of her teammates had accomplishments , so whats your point here?


> You take a shinobi out of their element, and stack them against other people in their area, of course they won't look as impressive. How good is Kakashi at medical jutsu? How good is Gai at medical jutsu? See what I did there? Her goal/role is to be the medical ninja on the squad, and _if_ she's forced to fight in a one on one scenario, she's still able to at least dodge and hit hard as hell to defend herself. She owned Manda with an enormous blade after all.


well she fought a Medical Shinobi , Kabuto , and she lost to him despite him not trying to kill her while she was trying to kill him , and she fell for his trick and wasted her strength punching air.


> Tsunade said what the role of a medic ninja is in battle. When something is your role, it's what you focus on being good at. To survive and not be taken out, no matter what, so you're able to heal others on your squad. That's her goal and her principle in combat. What makes Tsunade famous is her healing and medical jutsu. Offensively speaking? She's able to produce more damage than Raikage _and_ she has a boss summon capable of utilizing acid. So it's not like she's useless in combat ordinarily either.


Butterfly Chouji and SM Naruto arguably have more physical power , so no she's not strongest , and oh if surviving is her motto , she did survive , while many people died when Pain blow up the village , but that was fixed thanks to Naruto.


> In my honest opinion, we'll see what Tsunade capable of in this new mode, if Edo Tensei doesn't end. The last chapter we saw her speak on a medical ninja switching to a role of combat instead of focusing on support. It's _exclusively_ for her. It's like a high level cleric in your party saying, "Okay, I'm going to switch to my fighting mode." So it's fair to gauge her abilities now, rather than previously. So far we already know she can inflict more damage than Raikage, and though she's slower it can't be by a shameful margin in this new form she's using if they're being compared. If she was moving ridiculously slower, it'd be met with mockery or scorn by Madara. What he said, instead, was that she's _not_ weak.. but that rushing out could/would get her killed. He said she's _slower_, not slow. It doesn't mean she's super fast, but it definitely implies that she's not some slowpoke when you're being directly compared to someone else, or he'd simply comment on her 'strength'. Why comment on her speed at all if she was slow?


she's only capable of pissing off Madara to unleash more carnage on her and her teammate , and punching a clone.

that's it.


> THIS
> 
> Anyway, tl;dr. Tsunade is a medical ninja, exclusively, reread the rules she stated.
> Link removed
> ...


Jiraiya Sensei's teachings that kept Naruto loyal , not Tsunade , he didnt know Tsunade until later.

how About Tsunade's leadership in letting Sasuke get away and not killing him herself? , i didnt see you mention that?


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## Butterfly (May 23, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Yes it is , ever since she provoked Pain to blow up Konoha after he warned her not to do that.


Scans of Pain telling Tsunade he'll blow up her village if she talks back to him?

Pain always intended to nuke Konoha. In case him turning back to Tsunade and lecturing her about how everything she does is meaningless in the face of overwhelming power failed to depict it accurately. Why else would Pain turn to talk down to her? If he was going to leave, he could have done so without another word. Tsunade certainly wasn't keeping him there, and neither were the ANBU members. He already knew Naruto's location, too. 



> yes she did let the elders bully her when she accepted Sai in Team 7 after they pressured her , and her leadership sucks since she send Asuma on a mission to fight Akatsuki knowing he's not on their level ,  sure its shinobi's job to sacrifice his life , but not needlessly like that.


Uh. What? The elders pressured Hiruzen just as much as they pressured Tsunade (that's why events like the Uchiha massacre happened). The mission she sent Asuma out to do was something he was capable to do. She individually crafted a team dedicated to bringing down the akatsuki. Besides, you make it sound like only Tsunade has ever had a ninja die in the line of duty under her reign when we know that these things are common no matter what reign they fall under. 



> all of her teammates had accomplishments , so whats your point here?


Are you implying that she doesn't have any accomplishments? 



> well she fought a Medical Shinobi , Kabuto , and she lost to him despite him not trying to kill her while she was trying to kill him , and she fell for his trick and wasted her strength punching air.


Oh, please. Kabuto failed to restrain her without using her phobia against her. That doesn't mean he's intelligent. He had to receive handouts out the wazoo to barely tie a rusty old woman. And, to make matters worse, Kabuto admits inferiority to Tsunade anyways. 

Kabuto fell for Tsunade's trick too. That's why he got Ranshisho'd. If it wasn't for Kabuto, Orochimaru would have most likely fell for her trick to kill him too. 



> Butterfly Chouji and SM Naruto arguably have more physical power , so no she's not strongest , and oh if surviving is her motto , she did survive , while many people died when Pain blow up the village , but that was fixed thanks to Naruto.


Butterfly Chouji doesn't have feats that compare to Tsunade. For example, Asuma was intact when Chouji punched him, but one punch from Tsunade decimated half of Madara's body. 

As for Pain blowing up the village, Tsunade managed to save thousands of lives through Katsuyu and sacrificing her chakra. Even then, Pain barely managed to revive everyone he could. Tsunade's actions were vital in preserving the lives of civillians, unless you're going to argue that Pain could revive everyone despite not having the chakra to do so. 



> she's only capable of pissing off Madara to unleash more carnage on her and her teammate , and punching a clone.


Madara's carnage hasn't been over the top yet. I don't see meteorites coming back. As for punching a clone, she destroyed Susanno, and, as Kishimoto pointed out - they backed him into using the clone. That's progress and that's certainly better than what the kage were pulling for previously.



> Jiraiya Sensei's teachings that kept Naruto loyal , not Tsunade , he didnt know Tsunade until later


.
Wouldn't there be more than one motive for keeping Naruto loyal?



> how About Tsunade's leadership in letting Sasuke get away and not killing him herself? , i didnt see you mention that?


Tsunade and Sasuke is a tricky thing. Tsunade has seen Naruto convert the somehow most desolate cases over and over again (herself, A, and Pain being prime examples). It's entirely possible she went lenient on him because  she knows he can save just about anyone (and because he's the child of the prophecy of hope or whatever). And, there are more things at play than Sasuke here. If Sasuke was marked a missing-nin and then killed, the reaction that Naruto would have could spell far greater consequences for Konoha and, possibly the world, (cause the Akatsuki do want him) than it would be if they just kept him alive. As a result of Sasuke being kept alive, Sasuke managed to wipe through half of Akatsuki, kill Danzo, and now he's taking to Itachi and miiiiiight be coming down to his senses. Either way, it's ironic. Despite Sasuke talking about how he wants to destroy Konoha, his actions have only really benefited it.

Also, I wonder, what would Minato do in the situation with Sasuke? Minato has a soft spot just as large, if not more so, for Naruto than Tsunade does (evidenced when he chooses him over the Kyuubi tearing through the leaf). He would most likely fight to keep Sasuke off the missing-nin declaration for his son.


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## Shaz (May 23, 2012)

I really don't see the point of this thread, it'll never come to a conclusion at this rate. That's why I decided not to even start any debates in this thread. I mean this KingOfLightbulb or whatever, if he wanted to do an honest, impartial debate, he would not take the piss out of the character and ridicule them as all characters have some ups and some downs. So I know I wouldn't.

You like characters because you prefer their characteristics and skills, and some other people don't. This thread is just Tsunade vs Everyone else who can't accept some of her achievements. Yes, I'm sure everyone is aware there are those fans who hype about Tsunade way too much, and chew more than they can swallow in terms of claims, but she still deserves some credibility.

Now I'm not her fanboy, but she has made achievements as well, and that cannot be deniable. I really don't see the point of arguing and comparing her to say the First or Second, as most Ninja fail to compete with them anyway.

What's the point of trying to get someone to like or dislike a character? Let them believe in who they want. This manga was created for fun and enjoyment, not to create arguments, because that's what it's becoming, as in a debate, facts should be considered, whereas some are just overlooked even if they're presented many times.

Every character is good in their own respect, and some are not based entirely on skill, and what I see from Tsunade's character is a good personality to say the least, as it's quite flexible. Though I don't deny her skill either.


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## Rios (May 23, 2012)

No. I am sorry but there are characters like this. With whatever little good points they have being overshadowed by the badness. You are talking like each character has equal amounts of good and bad, and we choose which one to govern our judgement. Its not that simple.

As for Tsunade having such a rabid fanbase - most of them are females and she is their avatar. In a manga, where women are treated like this, its no wonder the female's pride will be gathered into what they think is their strongest representative. Once this has been established, all they need to do is to twist the manga into their liking to satisfy their needs. 

In other words - fuck Kishimoto.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 23, 2012)

Butterfly said:


> Scans of Pain telling Tsunade he'll blow up her village if she talks back to him?
> 
> Pain always intended to nuke Konoha. In case him turning back to Tsunade and lecturing her about how everything she does is meaningless in the face of overwhelming power failed to depict it accurately. Why else would Pain turn to talk down to her? If he was going to leave, he could have done so without another word. Tsunade certainly wasn't keeping him there, and neither were the ANBU members. He already knew Naruto's location, too.



Tsunade rejected Pain's ideals. She simply saw them as bullshit, in her mind the attack on Konoha was unprovoked. She spoke like a mad child. She did not understand the reasons behind Pain's actions, she did not understand the concept of the chain of hatred. Therefore there could be no peace between Konoha and the Rain village. 

Did you expect Pain to just walk away after that? 



the eye wasn't sealed
Pain: Hey Tsunade, lets form an alliance.
Tsuande: No. You're a terrorist, I'm the 5th Hokage. Respect my authority! Anything you say is meaningless. (Tsunade saying things that get Konoha nuked counter +1) 

the eye wasn't sealed
Pain: Know your place bitch, this situation where your village is fucking up my nation is unacceptable. 
Tsunade: You're unacceptable! (Tsunade saying things that get Konoha nuked counter +1) 
Pain: Say something dumb again, I dare you. 

Link removed
Pain: Acknowledge the fact that this attack was justified.
Tsunade: Nope, whatever you say is bullshit. (Tsunade saying things that get Konoha nuked counter +1) 

3 strikes have been reached! And Konoha wins a nuking!


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## Namikaze Minato (May 23, 2012)

Butterfly said:


> Scans of Pain telling Tsunade he'll blow up her village if she talks back to him?
> 
> Pain always intended to nuke Konoha. In case him turning back to Tsunade and lecturing her about how everything she does is meaningless in the face of overwhelming power failed to depict it accurately. Why else would Pain turn to talk down to her? If he was going to leave, he could have done so without another word. Tsunade certainly wasn't keeping him there, and neither were the ANBU members. He already knew Naruto's location, too.


TheFirstHokageOfTheWood covered that part.



> Uh. What? The elders pressured Hiruzen just as much as they pressured Tsunade (that's why events like the Uchiha massacre happened). The mission she sent Asuma out to do was something he was capable to do. She individually crafted a team dedicated to bringing down the akatsuki. Besides, you make it sound like only Tsunade has ever had a ninja die in the line of duty under her reign when we know that these things are common no matter what reign they fall under.


no they didnt , that was Danzo that pressured everybody and convinced Hiruzen , and since when was Asuma capable of beating Akatsuki?

common sense , if a Shinobi cant beat some guy , its obvious not to send him to fight a shinobi of the same tier as the guy he lost to , like i said , common sense which Tsunade lacked. 


> Are you implying that she doesn't have any accomplishments?


not so much compared to her fellow Hokages.



> Oh, please. Kabuto failed to restrain her without using her phobia against her. That doesn't mean he's intelligent. He had to receive handouts out the wazoo to barely tie a rusty old woman. And, to make matters worse, Kabuto admits inferiority to Tsunade anyways.
> 
> Kabuto fell for Tsunade's trick too. That's why he got Ranshisho'd. If it wasn't for Kabuto, Orochimaru would have most likely fell for her trick to kill him too.


the rusty argument isnt valid ever since Danzo showed a good showing despite him being much older than Tsunade , dont tell me its because of Hashirama cells cuz it doesnt help with rustiness.



> Butterfly Chouji doesn't have feats that compare to Tsunade. For example, Asuma was intact when Chouji punched him, but one punch from Tsunade decimated half of Madara's body.


you mean the clone? , valid argument , the clones in this manga are SO STRONG!



> As for Pain blowing up the village, Tsunade managed to save thousands of lives through Katsuyu and sacrificing her chakra. Even then, Pain barely managed to revive everyone he could. Tsunade's actions were vital in preserving the lives of civillians, unless you're going to argue that Pain could revive everyone despite not having the chakra to do so.


they better be vital since she was the one who provoked Pain. , even then Naruto helped more than her despite him not being a medic when he convinced pain to revive the people and Undo'd Tsunade's recklessness when she provoked Pain.


> Madara's carnage hasn't been over the top yet. I don't see meteorites coming back. As for punching a clone, she destroyed Susanno, and, as Kishimoto pointed out - they backed him into using the clone. That's progress and that's certainly better than what the kage were pulling for previously.


you mean the Susanoo that everybody helped weakened? , and they didnt backed him to anything , he could've easily used a meteor to end the battle , he was just having fun , if he was backed  , he'd have used Amaterasu and killed Tsunade.
.





> Wouldn't there be more than one motive for keeping Naruto loyal?


No , the Sensei that installs those things into the disciple  , Tsunade wasnt his Sensei and he even blamed her for his Sensei's death , so no way.



> Tsunade and Sasuke is a tricky thing. Tsunade has seen Naruto convert the somehow most desolate cases over and over again (herself, A, and Pain being prime examples). It's entirely possible she went lenient on him because  she knows he can save just about anyone (and because he's the child of the prophecy of hope or whatever). And, there are more things at play than Sasuke here. If Sasuke was marked a missing-nin and then killed, the reaction that Naruto would have could spell far greater consequences for Konoha and, possibly the world, (cause the Akatsuki do want him) than it would be if they just kept him alive. As a result of Sasuke being kept alive, Sasuke managed to wipe through half of Akatsuki, kill Danzo, and now he's taking to Itachi and miiiiiight be coming down to his senses. Either way, it's ironic. Despite Sasuke talking about how he wants to destroy Konoha, his actions have only really benefited it.


Sasuke is more dangerous than half the akatsuki and Danzo , Tsunade took a gamble and she made the wrong decision .... Again.... accept it.


> Also, I wonder, what would Minato do in the situation with Sasuke? Minato has a soft spot just as large, if not more so, for Naruto than Tsunade does (evidenced when he chooses him over the Kyuubi tearing through the leaf). He would most likely fight to keep Sasuke off the missing-nin declaration for his son.


you dont compare Minato who's leagues above Tsunade to her , it's not fair for Tsunade , and Minato doesnt have a soft spot , he kills his enemies if he have to , and he wouldnt do that cuz he values the village more than a missing nin , unlike Tsunade.


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## Butterfly (May 23, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Tsunade rejected Pain's ideals. She simply saw them as bullshit, in her mind the attack on Konoha was unprovoked. She spoke like a mad child. She did not understand the reasons behind Pain's actions, she did not understand the concept of the chain of hatred. Therefore there could be no peace between Konoha and the Rain village.


Except the attack on Konoha was unprovoked. Pain came in solely looking for Naruto and had a vast tools (including something that read minds) to accomplish that goal. Instead, he goes around killing civilians and soldiers alike to find something that should, realistically, take him within five minutes. Instead of doing a search mission, he just merely started carnage against the hidden leaf.

And you and I both know that peace with the Rain Village would mean relinquishing Naruto to the Akatsuki. Are you stating that Tsunade should give the nine-tails to the Akatsuki and bring them closer to their nefarious goals? What about the reasoning of Tsunade's actions anyways. Tsunade had just witnessed Kakashi, Jiraiya - her best and closest friend, and a variety of her villagers get injured or even killed by Pain's actions. Do you really expect her to be nice to a terrorist?  



> Did you expect Pain to just walk away after that?


Pain was about to walk away but then turned back and started ranting about overwhelming power. 



> one
> Pain: Hey Tsunade, lets form an alliance.
> Tsuande: No. You're a terrorist, I'm the 5th Hokage. Respect my authority! Anything you say is meaningless. (Tsunade saying things that get Konoha nuked counter +1)


Oh please. The Leader of the Akatsuki, a group that has attacked villages for the sole purpose of gaining the jinchuuriki, walks into your village and offers you an alliance? They have two jinchuuriki left to get, and, one of them should be arriving here any moment anyways. Forming an alliance with the Akatsuki would mean relinquishing Naruto, and, in case just about every last man woman and child dying without saying a word that'd be helpful from Pain, if Tsunade dared to give up his location in the first place, they'd probably throw a violent coup and kill her before Pain even turned away. She was justified in being suspicious of a man who was running around killing her villagers, like any other half-decent kage would. 



> one
> Pain: Know your place bitch, this situation where your village is fucking up my nation is unacceptable.
> Tsunade: You're unacceptable! (Tsunade saying things that get Konoha nuked counter +1)
> Pain: Say something dumb again, I dare you.


> using misogynistic language to prove a point
> well, that sure isn't suspicious or something  

Konoha had left the Rain village alone - for the most part - with the exception of Danzo's actions. Not to mention, the reverse is immediately true in this case. Pain is fucking up the village and killing its people en mass. He's being a total hypocrite, so why would anyone bother to give him the light of day with his points. 

Tsunade even points out that the Leaf village wasn't always justified, but a world of peace was better than a world with war against the great five nations (something that fucked over the rain village in the first place). Pain takes it as a three year old would, "But! You're not totally bending over for me! Shut up!" 



> one
> Pain: Acknowledge the fact that this attack was justified.
> Tsunade: Nope, whatever you say is bullshit. (Tsunade saying things that get Konoha nuked counter +1)


Because Pain's attack wasn't justified. It never was. In what was is mass carnage towards the villagers ever okay? He ran through there and killed countless of people that were dear to Tsunade and Konoha in general. All in the namesake of obtaining another Jinchuuriki to bring him closer to his goals (which he later acknowledged were wrong anyways). Whoever was filling the kage position doesn't matter, Pain would have destroyed the village anyways. 



Namikaze Minato said:


> no they didnt , that was Danzo that pressured everybody and convinced Hiruzen , and since when was Asuma capable of beating Akatsuki?


So? That's still succumbing to pressure. Do you really think Hiruzen would willingly kill the entire Uchiha clan if he had a say over 100% of the preceding? He felt so much guilt he allowed Sasuke to live. That's still giving in to Danzo. So, in other words, your statements about no other kages succumbing to pressure isn't very real. 

Asuma was capable of holding his own against the likes of Kisame, who I'm sure we can all agree is more capable than Hidan. This is also ignoring the fact that he's been training for the past two and a half years.  



> common sense , if a Shinobi cant beat some guy , its obvious not to send him to fight a shinobi of the same tier as the guy he lost to , like i said , common sense which Tsunade lacked.


Asuma was still able to keep his own against Kisame. I doubt the shark attack would actually kill him. Not to mention, you're also ignoring the fact that he'd most likely been improving himself for the past 2 1/2 years, and, that he had teammates he was supposed to work with (in other words, it wasn't a solo effort.) 




> not so much compared to her fellow Hokages.


What were the seconds accomplishments? Aside from the school, most of them have negative effects. The third hokage's reign has been a mixed bag, and the only thing the fourth did whilst in office was make a baby and then choose that baby over Konoha (although to his credit, he did save the village from the Kyuubi after he rummaged through it). The fifth hokage's legacy is three years into its run and it has the highest stakes of any of the kages so far (as in fight or watch the world end). If she can pull off a victory with the rest of the troops, I'm confident that'll be a huge, huge, plus in the war and its efforts. 



> the rusty argument isnt valid ever since Danzo showed a good showing despite him being much older than Tsunade , dont tell me its because of Hashirama cells cuz it doesnt help with rustiness.


Rustiness and age are not equivalent. 



> you mean the clone? , valid argument , the clones in this manga are SO STRONG!


The clone was most likely created after Susanno failed. Besides, bunshins literally trick every character in the manga (somehow). If they were a fraction of their normal strength, they'd be noticeable. 



> they better be vital since she was the one who provoked Pain. , even then Naruto helped more than her despite him not being a medic when he convinced pain to revive the people and Undo'd Tsunade's recklessness when she provoked Pain.


Tsunade didn't provoke pain into doing anything he wouldn't have done with any other Kage. And, if it wasn't for Tsunade, Konoha would have been totally desolated. Everyone would have been killled. Naruto would have immediately launched into an unrecoverable rage and Pain would have never been converted with a tnj. Tsunade's actions, whilst subtle, were vital. 

Besides, Pain barely had the chakra to revive the people he killed. How is he going to revive the people that Tsunade wouldn't have saved because she wasn't there? That's easily thousands more than Pain doesn't have the chakra to revive. 



> you mean the Susanoo that everybody helped weakened? , and they didnt backed him to anything , he could've easily used a meteor to end the battle , he was just having fun , if he was backed  , he'd have used Amaterasu and killed Tsunade.


Oh, please. Susanno, after being doused in lava, and receiving a punch from Raikage, and Onoki + Raikage barely cracked. Tsunade was able to break it open in two blows (with another Onoki + Raikage attack that most likely didn't do much, and a suiton, which wouldn't do much against Susanno anyways). 

We aren't sure how many meteors he could summon but that's besides the point. He didn't use amaterasu for whatever reason, but I bet that's because he could douse her in a katon. He was backed, and he used the clone to get out of the situation and shank Tsunade (Which he intended to kill with, given his surprise that she's still alive).



> No , the Sensei that installs those things into the disciple  , Tsunade wasnt his Sensei and he even blamed her for his Sensei's death , so no way.


Naruto wasn't very logical at the time. And, Naruto's influences aren't solely Jiraiya and Kakashi. He takes influences from others too. I'm sure he does admire some aspects of her leadership and quality. In fact, he considered her too high to deal with the likes of Pain (however flawed of a statement this may be, it does indicate respect.). He's fond of Tsunade, through and through. 



> Sasuke is more dangerous than half the akatsuki and Danzo , Tsunade took a gamble and she made the wrong decision .... Again.... accept it.


Sasuke's actions were more beneficial, and, I doubt that Sasuke, individually, is more dangerous than half the Akatsuki and Danzo put together, one of which is the dumping ground for every bad idea Konoha's ever had. The thing with Sasuke hasn't resolved yet, so I'll just laughing my ass off when he's redeemed, or finally killed, with Konoha having less of a threat to deal with an international terrorist organization and Danzo is finally in the grave. 



> you dont compare Minato who's leagues above Tsunade to her , it's not fair for Tsunade , and Minato doesnt have a soft spot , he kills his enemies if he have to , and he wouldnt do that cuz he values the village more than a missing nin , unlike Tsunade.


Minato doesn't have a soft spot for Naruto? Didn't he choose Naruto over the Kyuubi? He even states that he cares for Naruto very deeply. It has nothing to do with killing his enemies, and, I doubt he'd take a course of action that'd gravely upset his son - especially when he knows that he's the child of the prophecy against the prophecy of hatred blah blah blah asspulls. 

and please, read my argument about how Naruto might react and tell me that that means she's valuing Sasuke more than the village she put herself in a coma to protect


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## Namikaze Minato (May 23, 2012)

Butterfly said:


> So? That's still succumbing to pressure. Do you really think Hiruzen would willingly kill the entire Uchiha clan if he had a say over 100% of the preceding? He felt so much guilt he allowed Sasuke to live. That's still giving in to Danzo. So, in other words, your statements about no other kages succumbing to pressure isn't very real.


pressure from Danzo is different than those 2 elders , they're weak compared to Danzo , but still were able to pressure Tsunade.

it means Hiruzen at least cave in from Danzo while Tsunade from those 2 elders , see the difference?


> Asuma was capable of holding his own against the likes of Kisame, who I'm sure we can all agree is more capable than Hidan. This is also ignoring the fact that he's been training for the past two and a half years.
> 
> 
> Asuma was still able to keep his own against Kisame. I doubt the shark attack would actually kill him. Not to mention, you're also ignoring the fact that he'd most likely been improving himself for the past 2 1/2 years, and, that he had teammates he was supposed to work with (in other words, it wasn't a solo effort.)


he survived at first , but as Kisame began to fight seriously , he was in trouble , so no he didnt hold his own , and if the fight continued , he'd died.

even if he trained , there is no guarantee , and he didnt improve that much to the point where he can face Akatsuki , it was evident from his loss to Hidan who's weaker than Kisame.

again , a mistake from Tsunade the great Hokage.




> What were the seconds accomplishments? Aside from the school, most of them have negative effects. The third hokage's reign has been a mixed bag, and the only thing the fourth did whilst in office was make a baby and then choose that baby over Konoha (although to his credit, he did save the village from the Kyuubi after he rummaged through it). The fifth hokage's legacy is three years into its run and it has the highest stakes of any of the kages so far (as in fight or watch the world end). If she can pull off a victory with the rest of the troops, I'm confident that'll be a huge, huge, plus in the war and its efforts.


he built police , improved village system , and in his reign , the villaged wasnt *nuked*.


> Rustiness and age are not equivalent.


doesnt negate the fact he was rusty and didnt fight for a very long time , and he gave good performance , unlike Tsunade.


> The clone was most likely created after Susanno failed. Besides, bunshins literally trick every character in the manga (somehow). If they were a fraction of their normal strength, they'd be noticeable.


your point? , Tsunade fell for it , so there is no need to list it as an accomplishment for Tsunade when Madara was toying with her.




> Tsunade didn't provoke pain into doing anything he wouldn't have done with any other Kage. And, if it wasn't for Tsunade, Konoha would have been totally desolated. Everyone would have been killled. Naruto would have immediately launched into an unrecoverable rage and Pain would have never been converted with a tnj. Tsunade's actions, whilst subtle, were vital.
> 
> Besides, Pain barely had the chakra to revive the people he killed. How is he going to revive the people that Tsunade wouldn't have saved because she wasn't there? That's easily thousands more than Pain doesn't have the chakra to revive.


yeah Tsunade was a nice kitten even after he warned her , if he was planning to do that anyways , why would her give her a warning to shut up?, which she didnt head? , try to justify that , and any intelligent Kage would've tried to buy time and *NOT *provoke Pain.


> Oh, please. Susanno, after being doused in lava, and receiving a punch from Raikage, and Onoki + Raikage barely cracked. Tsunade was able to break it open in two blows (with another Onoki + Raikage attack that most likely didn't do much, and a suiton, which wouldn't do much against Susanno anyways).
> 
> We aren't sure how many meteors he could summon but that's besides the point. He didn't use amaterasu for whatever reason, but I bet that's because he could douse her in a katon. He was backed, and he used the clone to get out of the situation and shank Tsunade (Which he intended to kill with, given his surprise that she's still alive).


he was backed and he didnt use Amaterasu? , he he was difinitely backed against the wall despite not using Tsokoymi and amaterasu , Tsunade really did a number on him so hard she caused him to momentarily forget his techniques arsenal right?



> Naruto wasn't very logical at the time. And, Naruto's influences aren't solely Jiraiya and Kakashi. He takes influences from others too. I'm sure he does admire some aspects of her leadership and quality. In fact, he considered her too high to deal with the likes of Pain (however flawed of a statement this may be, it does indicate respect.). He's fond of Tsunade, through and through.


and Tsunade is logical? , she send Jiraiya to his death. 
Lol he saw her tired and dealt with pain , if anything she was too low to deal with pain.

correct , he's fond of the woman that let his best friend go by her poor judgement , and by sending his Sensei and godfather to his death.

he adores her.



> Sasuke's actions were more beneficial, and, I doubt that Sasuke, individually, is more dangerous than half the Akatsuki and Danzo put together, one of which is the dumping ground for every bad idea Konoha's ever had. The thing with Sasuke hasn't resolved yet, so I'll just laughing my ass off when he's redeemed, or finally killed, with Konoha having less of a threat to deal with an international terrorist organization and Danzo is finally in the grave.


for the time being , long term , he is more dangerous than half Akatsuki , at least Danzo altho twisted , wants to proect Konoha.


> Minato doesn't have a soft spot for Naruto? Didn't he choose Naruto over the Kyuubi? He even states that he cares for Naruto very deeply. It has nothing to do with killing his enemies, and, I doubt he'd take a course of action that'd gravely upset his son - especially when he knows that he's the child of the prophecy against the prophecy of hatred blah blah blah asspulls.


no he doesnt , if he does , he'd had chosen to live to stay with Naruto , but he didnt and it did upset Naruto , re-read the manga panels where Naruto see other kids with their parents.

again dont compare Minato to Tsunade , he did more to the village than Tsunade and was admired more than her.


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## tsunadefan (May 23, 2012)

wow namikaze minato. i thought you just disliked tsunade but your posts just scream hate for her. i wonder if you're comparing her decisions to real world leaders. could you imagine what would have happened if all that your asking for was supposed to happen in like obama's case to bin laden?! and the next thing which is the comparison of tsunade's decision to others when ya'll would have no idea of what the others would do is just funny. and then rios implying that tsunade's bad points overshadow her good when nothing could be further from the truth. i think that the hatred of this strong character is clouding the minds of the opposers which is just sad to the point where people think she is fodder. tsunade has made good decisions as a hokage and those decisions have had beneficial effects on the villages. tsunade has been a good combatant as well as awesome medic ninja and it can be seen in her battles and feats against people stronger and a lot more advantageous than her. why ya'll can't see that is the big mystery.


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## Butterfly (May 23, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> pressure from Danzo is different than those 2 elders , they're weak compared to Danzo , but still were able to pressure Tsunade.


The two elders sided with Danzo though. They were able to use his power to reinforce their opinions. Also, they most likely took a similar role in Sasuke's assassination since Sasuke does hold a grudge towards the elders. 



> it means Hiruzen at least cave in from Danzo while Tsunade from those 2 elders , see the difference?


The two elders and Danzo team up every now and again. Can you name some occasions Tsunade caved in to the elders on their own? (And don't mention Sai, that was clearly Danzo at work as well). 



> he survived at first , but as Kisame began to fight seriously , he was in trouble , so no he didnt hold his own , and if the fight continued , he'd died.


Except he wasn't in trouble. Kisame tagged his shoulder, so he tagged Kisame in return. He then took his eyes off to make sure Kurenai was okay and Kisame attempted to attack him too. 



> *even if he trained , there is no guarantee* , and he didnt improve that much to the point where he can face Akatsuki , it was evident from his loss to Hidan who's weaker than Kisame.


Of course. But, the bolded applies to everyone in the series. Their training may not be able to overcome the task set ahead. But, that's where the skillset of the combatants (as a whole) kicks in. No one is implying that Asuma would be able to take Akatsuki members on his own, but, that's where the rest of his team kicks in. Their only flaw was not knowing that Hidan was immortal, which, a variety of the cast would fall under at that point. I can't picture much ninja that'd be successful in facing Hidan under the same situation. 

Not to mention, although I agree Hidan is weaker, A > B > C doesn't work here. It's Naruto. Skills aren't just pokemon types. 



> he built police , improved village system , and in his reign , the villaged wasnt *nuked*.


Tsunade created the medical system - something which Minato indirectly approved of, she improved the village's relations, and, even if Konoha was nuked, it wasn't directly because of Tsunade's fault. It could be (if you want to argue it's her fault) attributed to Danzo, and others. 



> doesnt negate the fact he was rusty and didnt fight for a very long time , and he gave good performance , unlike Tsunade.


Scans of Danzo stating he was rusty?  He never stated he was out of activity, and, if he's vying for the Kage position so immensely, he'll be most likely training himself for the physical challenges that it might present. 




> your point? , Tsunade fell for it , so there is no need to list it as an accomplishment for Tsunade when Madara was toying with her.


Madara noted that only he could see through the bunshin feint against Madara. Considering how this is super Haxxx Madara on steroids, every other Kage was getting toyed with (and every character in the series would have most likely fell for it).



> yeah Tsunade was a nice kitten even after he warned her , if he was planning to do that anyways , why would her give her a warning to shut up?, which she didnt head? , try to justify that , and any intelligent Kage would've tried to buy time and *NOT *provoke Pain.


Why should Tsunade be nice with the person killing her villagers? Being nice with him would mean cooperation, and, that'd mean relinquishing Naruto. If Pain was killing her villagers before hand, then why didn't he warn her about that either? Could it be that he was lying or trying to coerce her into obeying with the threat? Even if he was planning to destroy it earlier (as evidenced by practically everything else in the series, including a long-standing grudge in Konoha). 



> he was backed and he didnt use Amaterasu? , he he was difinitely backed against the wall despite not using Tsokoymi and amaterasu , Tsunade really did a number on him so hard she caused him to momentarily forget his techniques arsenal right?


Is there a specific requirement that he must used x technique to be cornered? Despite the fact that it might not be the most useful technique to use at the time? (And what good would Tsukiyomi do? It'd leave him open to the other 4 kages, including the one that could seal him). 



> and Tsunade is logical? , she send Jiraiya to his death.
> Lol he saw her tired and dealt with pain , if anything she was too low to deal with pain.


Tsunade didn't send Jiraiya to his death. She asked him to investigate into learning the leader of the Akatsuki and his location. Despite this, she even offered him back up and the like, Jiraiya stated no and reinforced the fact that the village needs her, and that he'd be fine on his own. Jiraiya only died because he didn't know Pain's secret. Is that suddenly Tsunade's fault that she can't get intel on the leader of a country that swore itself to secrecy? 

And, as for Pain, she handled him like any other kage would and pretty efficiently. She countered most of the damage he did to Konoha's civillians, and managed to perserve the true treasure of the hidden leaf. It's people. 




> correct , he's fond of the woman that let his best friend go by her poor judgement , and by sending his Sensei and godfather to his death.


Evidence and/or scans that the person who he lovingly refers to as "Obaa-chan" and even states that Pain is below her (after Jiraiya's death) really hates her?  



> for the time being , long term , he is more dangerous than half Akatsuki , at least Danzo altho twisted , wants to proect Konoha.


Danzo's methods were totally dangerous to Konoha. Not only did it cause Pain, Kabuto (who is hell of a lot more dangerous than anyone),  possible implications in the Third Hokage's death, etc. 



> no he doesnt , if he does , he'd had chosen to live to stay with Naruto , but he didnt and it did upset Naruto , re-read the manga panels where Naruto see other kids with their parents.


He didn't choose to leave Naruto out of a bias for him, but for a contrived reason that he needed to die too to fulfill some weird prophecy. In the long run, he did it out of love for Naruto and the village which is a truly respectable reason. 



> again dont compare Minato to Tsunade , he did more to the village than Tsunade and was admired more than her.


He didn't do more to the village, and, in the long run, Tsunade has a pretty high ground to surpass him. 

As for admired? Honestly, I agree there. But Minato has a finished legacy. A man that died for the village, and died as a hero. It'd be pretty hard to surpass that.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 23, 2012)

Butterfly said:


> Except the attack on Konoha was unprovoked. Pain came in solely looking for Naruto and had a vast tools (including something that read minds) to accomplish that goal. Instead, he goes around killing civilians and soldiers alike to find something that should, realistically, take him within five minutes. Instead of doing a search mission, he just merely started carnage against the hidden leaf.



Konoha had attacked the Akatsuki several times before. I would hardly call that unprovoked. On top of that Danzo killed Nagato's best friend. I would again say that's a provocation. 

The attack was there to mask the presence of the bodies doing the searching. 



> And you and I both know that peace with the Rain Village would mean relinquishing Naruto to the Akatsuki. Are you stating that Tsunade should give the nine-tails to the Akatsuki and bring them closer to their nefarious goals? What about the reasoning of Tsunade's actions anyways. Tsunade had just witnessed Kakashi, Jiraiya - her best and closest friend, and a variety of her villagers get injured or even killed by Pain's actions. Do you really expect her to be nice to a terrorist?



All Naruto needed was a little book in order to convince Nagato to turn into a good guy. If Tsunade had even fraction of Naruto's skill Konoha would not have been nuked. Instead she insulted Pain and refused to listen to anything he had to say. 



> Pain was about to walk away but then turned back and started ranting about overwhelming power.



You're missing the point. Tsunade had been warned twice not to make stupid replies. She did it a third time. She made it quite clear that she only wanted war. How could Pain possibly walk away after that and put the lives of his villager in danger? He is actually a good leader unlike Tsunade. 



> Oh please. The Leader of the Akatsuki, a group that has attacked villages for the sole purpose of gaining the jinchuuriki, walks into your village and offers you an alliance? They have two jinchuuriki left to get, and, one of them should be arriving here any moment anyways. Forming an alliance with the Akatsuki would mean relinquishing Naruto, and, in case just about every last man woman and child dying without saying a word that'd be helpful from Pain, if Tsunade dared to give up his location in the first place, they'd probably throw a violent coup and kill her before Pain even turned away. She was justified in being suspicious of a man who was running around killing her villagers, like any other half-decent kage would.



Tsunade's job is to place the village first. Naruto's location in return for the safety of the village is a cheap price to pay. 



> > using misogynistic language to prove a point
> > well, that sure isn't suspicious or something



I was going for humor, but if that offends you I apologize. 



> Konoha had left the Rain village alone - for the most part - with the exception of Danzo's actions. Not to mention, the reverse is immediately true in this case. Pain is fucking up the village and killing its people en mass. He's being a total hypocrite, so why would anyone bother to give him the light of day with his points.



Jiraiya didn't attack the Rain village a week before Pain's attack? Tsunade didn't approve and even suggest a full scale invasion?



> Tsunade even points out that the Leaf village wasn't always justified, but a world of peace was better than a world with war against the great five nations (something that fucked over the rain village in the first place). Pain takes it as a three year old would, "But! You're not totally bending over for me! Shut up!"



Peace for the 5 great nations means war for the smaller nations, come on how are you not getting this?



> Because Pain's attack wasn't justified. It never was. In what was is mass carnage towards the villagers ever okay? He ran through there and killed countless of people that were dear to Tsunade and Konoha in general. All in the namesake of obtaining another Jinchuuriki to bring him closer to his goals (which he later acknowledged were wrong anyways). Whoever was filling the kage position doesn't matter, Pain would have destroyed the village anyways.



Makes a huge difference. Tsunade was incompetent and a terrible negotiator. 

Instead of listening to Pain she rejected everything he had to say. Instead of offering him a compromise of a way to reach peace she threatened him. 

She left him with no option but to nuke Konoha.


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## Summers (May 23, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Konoha had attacked the Akatsuki several times before. I would hardly call that unprovoked. On top of that Danzo killed Nagato's best friend. I would again say that's a provocation.
> 
> The attack was there to mask the presence of the bodies doing the searching.
> 
> ...



You can not be serious. No other option but to nuke Konoha? Negotiate with the guy who wants to kidnap and extract Naruto thus killing him, negotiate with the guy who just rampaged the village, Negotiate with the guy who's plan is to Nuke the world into peace. Giving up Naruto to Pain, even though he was the one who could defeat Pain? What? 

What real kages shut up and do what the enemy wants.
Oh crap, I fell for the bait.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 23, 2012)

summers said:


> You can not be serious. No other option but to nuke Konoha? Negotiate with the guy who wants to kidnap and extract Naruto thus killing him, negotiate with the guy who just rampaged the village, Negotiate with the guy who's plan is to Nuke the world into peace. Giving up Naruto to Pain, even though he was the one who could defeat Pain? What?
> 
> What real kages shut up and do what the enemy wants.
> Oh crap, I fell for the bait.



Oro attacked Konoha, the third still attempted to negotiate.
Tobi attacked Konoha, the fourth attempted to negotiate. 

As far as we know every successful Hokage has attempted to talk his way out of a fight. Tsunade is the only one to talk her enemy into nuking Konoha. 


Look at it from Pain's perspective. Tsunade was telling him that peace between the Rain and Konoha was not a possibility. This leaves room for two possible outcomes, either Konoha will destroy the Rain or the Rain will destroy Konoha. Any sensible leader would at that point choose to destroy Konoha. What other chose did Pain have left? Wait for Konoha to attack?


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## tsunadefan (May 23, 2012)

i hope you dont mind me intruding but i need to bring my views on a few points that firstwood mentioned. 

1. but akatsuki kinda did provoke them before that remember that itachi and kisame came? and even aside from that, the akatsuki were a global threat to the ninja world as shown now in the great war. dont know about danzo, and nagato still could have found other means to mask the paths.

2. yeah, i dont see the point in saying that if she was strong as naruto the village would not have been nuked. actually, naruto by himself would not have been able to defeat pain. as we witnessed in the manga. only with the aid of hinata and the fox was he able to defeat him, sssoooo. and she actually listened, she just refused to agree with his ludicrous and hypocritical arguements. i am also guessing that by your reasoning that if the other hokages were facing pain they would lose because they wouldn't have the awesome talk no jutsu that naruto has.

3. aauuummm, tsunade was inadequately warned/threatened because 3 year old nagato had a fit of rage when he didn't want to hear or have a discussion about his indecent actions.  no one new that he had a village buster and how did tsunade make it clear that she wanted war?! by saying she wont be bending over to pain's terrorist demands?! pain is a good leader unlike tsunade?! at least she stayed in her village and is running it with a better ideology. pain left his to destroy another and has his people under a more left wing kinda rule.

4. aum, you forgot though that he already knew where he was so it would be pointless. try again please.

5. actually, jiraiya was just to gather intel if i remember right and pain attacked him, and the rain village held the head of akatsuki, the crime organization built on world domination. 

6. and when again did tsunade suggest that peace for the 5 great nations means war on the smaller ones?


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## Summers (May 23, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Oro attacked Konoha, the third still attempted to negotiate.
> Tobi attacked Konoha, the fourth attempted to negotiate.
> 
> As far as we know every successful Hokage has attempted to talk his way out of a fight. Tsunade is the only one to talk her enemy into nuking Konoha.
> ...



Negotiate with Oro and Tobi,Did they now, OK how did that work out for them?

Is that what she said? Tsunade said no such thing, Manga page please of Tsunade saying that.

Tsunade threatened to destroy the Rain?  
And again, Nagato's plan was to make a nuke,hand it out,and have countries nuke each other. Not attacking Konoha like a villain would be a start.


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## Butterfly (May 23, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Konoha had attacked the Akatsuki several times before. I would hardly call that unprovoked. On top of that Danzo killed Nagato's best friend. I would again say that's a provocation.


Are you really arguing that Konoha and the other nations aren't justified for attacking an organization that's gathering the tailed beasts and killing them for their own personal gain?  

I agree, Danzo did set off the sparks by leading to the deaths of Yahiko/Nagato's parents. But, that doesn't make what he did right.



> The attack was there to mask the presence of the bodies doing the searching.


Oh, please, again, Pain could do it with one path in literally within one hour. The other paths may have served as a distraction but lethal force against civilians will never be necessary when he has other means to do whatever. 



> All Naruto needed was a little book in order to convince Nagato to turn into a good guy. If Tsunade had even fraction of Naruto's skill Konoha would not have been nuked. Instead she insulted Pain and refused to listen to anything he had to say.


Naruto could only convince Pain after Konan agreed to bring him towards him. Naruto, the child of the prophecy, TNJs everyone a regular basis no matter how extreme or illogical it is. Tsunade may not have that leadership, but, then again, she also isn't the main character and she doesn't have the plot bending to her will. It's true that if Naruto came home earlier, Konoha will have been saved, but that's what Tsunade intended to do. She sent a message recalling Naruto home, and, Danzo stupidly interfered with the decision. 




> You're missing the point. Tsunade had been warned twice not to make stupid replies. She did it a third time. She made it quite clear that she only wanted war. How could Pain possibly walk away after that and put the lives of his villager in danger? He is actually a good leader unlike Tsunade.


She only wanted war? Tsunade definitely values peace above all else, which is why she wouldn't want to listen to Pain, you know, the man that runs in and kills her villagers. Pain's warnings aren't relevant, since he was planning to destroy Konoha from the start. Pain was actively hostile to her too. You think threatening someone after you kill their villagers is going to give you any sort of standing? Should Tsunade be intimidated and say nothing instead - that would only provoke Pain more. 

How could Tsunade possibly shut up when Pain directly threatened - and acted upon the threats - of his villagers? You're basically criticizing Tsunade for something that Pain is quite guilty of as well. As for Pain being a good leader, I don't quite think so. He is quite disconnected from his people, it seems.  



> Tsunade's job is to place the village first. Naruto's location in return for the safety of the village is a cheap price to pay.


Naruto's location would lead the village's destruction. Again, the Akatsuki's goal, at this time, was revealed to be total destruction. By giving them Naruto's location, Tsunade would be providing a means to get to that place which is something that she should never allow. And, the village's demands were, by and large, that Naruto be kept safe. Villagers and soldiers both died to protect his secret - it's why Pain's invasion was so ineffective. If Tsunade revealed where Naruto was, she would have been killed on spot and hated by her people. It's not what they (the village) wish, so why actually go through with it? 



> Jiraiya didn't attack the Rain village a week before Pain's attack? Tsunade didn't approve and even suggest a full scale invasion?


Jiraiya's intention wasn't to attack the Rain Village. It was to merely gather intel, and, to attack the leader of the Akatsuki, if possible. They both acknowledge that the rain village, by and large, didn't have much to be punished for. Tsunade merely offered him back up (in the form of herself, not others) if he was in a tight spot, but Jiraiya refused. 



> Peace for the 5 great nations means war for the smaller nations, come on how are you not getting this?


War for the 5 great nations is arguably worse. We've already seen what war did to the Rain Village (as in, they utterly decimated the rain village as a battlefield). What would the Rain village possibly have to gain from war sparking up again? And besides, we've learned that the Rain Village was the only village struggling, mostly from civil unrest caused by - wait for it - _war_ from the larger countries. 




> Makes a huge difference. Tsunade was incompetent and a terrible negotiator.


Not true. She wasn't incompetent. And, she isn't supposed to negotiate with a man killing his people when his objective is something that the villagers died to protect. It'd be shitting on those that died, it'd be shitting on the future, it'd be shitting on Tsunade's standards as a protect of the people and their wishes, and it'd be shitting on Naruto and his chance of safety. 



> Instead of listening to Pain she rejected everything he had to say. Instead of offering him a compromise of a way to reach peace she threatened him.


She's supposed to listen to a terrorist killing her people? How is she supposed to trust him, first of all? Second of all, Pain wasn't exactly ever right during their conversation, sans the mentions that Konoha had fucked up in the past. Which is true, Tsunade did own up to that. But, that doesn't mean it's her fault, nor does that mean she should make up for it by giving them Naruto on a silver platter. 



> She left him with no option but to nuke Konoha.


Yeah, this would be legit and all if he didn't have any motive left to be in Konoha. He could have merely gone about his way. There wasn't anything stopping him. He just merely wished to destroy it and end a grudge he habored against Konoha from the start. Whether or not the grudge is justified (I think it is.) doesn't mean his actions _are_. What Pain did was no better than what Danzo did. Attempting to kill, and killing, an entire village of people, most of which aren't involved in the conflict and don't wish to be, seems just flat out ridiculous. When it comes to Pain and Tsunade arguing, I'll side with Tsunade handling it decently. But, I do agree with the _very basic_ of Pain's ideas that Konoha wasn't in the right fully and they kept hurting other countries because of their past actions which is, by and large, completely true and Tsunade acknowledges it.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 23, 2012)

summers said:


> Negotiate with Oro and Tobi,Did they now, OK how did that work out for them?



Who cares how it worked out as long as they tried? And as apposed to Nagato who was more than willing to listen Tobi and Oro had no intention of backing down. 



> Is that what she said? Tsunade said no such thing, Manga page please of Tsunade saying that.



Look at the conversation, 
_Here_
"Whatever you say is meaningless."
_Here_
"We will use everything we have to fight you, that is all."
_Here_
"You just keep on spouting your bull."

Tsunade made it clear that dialog was not a possibility. Konoha would not listen to the Rain. The only option is war and mindless destruction. 



> Tsunade threatened to destroy the Rain?
> And again, Nagato's plan was to make a nuke,hand it out,and have countries nuke each other. Not attacking Konoha like a villain would be a start.



She stated that she would use all of Konoha's resources to fight. It is not a threat, it is a statement. 

Furthermore the whole point of training Naruto was so that he could attack the Rain village and fight Pain. Remember Nagato knew everything Shizune knew which most likely includes Tsunade's plans for attacking the Rain.


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## Namikaze Minato (May 24, 2012)

Butterfly said:


> The two elders sided with Danzo though. They were able to use his power to reinforce their opinions. Also, they most likely took a similar role in Sasuke's assassination since Sasuke does hold a grudge towards the elders.


no they didnt , scans please? , Manga imply s it was Danzo , the elders might have agreed with him , but they didnt pressure Hiruzen since Danzo was doing a good job enough on his own. 



> > The two elders and Danzo team up every now and again
> 
> 
> . Can you name some occasions Tsunade caved in to the elders on their own? (And don't mention Sai, that was clearly Danzo at work as well).


scans? , and yes i'll mention the Sai incident because Danzo didnt do anything , he basically shut his mouth while the elders did all the work.


> Except he wasn't in trouble. Kisame tagged his shoulder, so he tagged Kisame in return. He then took his eyes off to make sure Kurenai was okay and Kisame attempted to attack him too.


ofcourse he wasnt , he could've totally whooped Kisame's ass , Gai's interference wasnt needed at all. 



> Of course. But, the bolded applies to everyone in the series. Their training may not be able to overcome the task set ahead. But, that's where the skillset of the combatants (as a whole) kicks in. No one is implying that Asuma would be able to take Akatsuki members on his own, but, that's where the rest of his team kicks in. Their only flaw was not knowing that Hidan was immortal, which, a variety of the cast would fall under at that point. I can't picture much ninja that'd be successful in facing Hidan under the same situation.


as the Hokage she should've known that , but no she was only interested in Naruto's training only ..... which speaks volumes on her leadership skills.


> Not to mention, although I agree Hidan is weaker, A > B > C doesn't work here. It's Naruto. Skills aren't just pokemon types.


in this case it works , Kisame can beat Hidan and Hidan can beat Asuma , but Asuma cannot beat any of the two ... see?



> Tsunade created the medical system - something which Minato indirectly approved of, she improved the village's relations, and, even if Konoha was nuked, it wasn't directly because of Tsunade's fault. It could be (if you want to argue it's her fault) attributed to Danzo, and others.


Danzo is at fault as well , but dont tell me Tsunade didnt push Pain with her mouthing off After he gave her a warning.

Sounds simple , you just have to own to it that your favourite character did what she shouldnt have done.


> Scans of Danzo stating he was rusty?  He never stated he was out of activity, and, if he's vying for the Kage position so immensely, he'll be most likely training himself for the physical challenges that it might present.


Link removed

he says himself it's been a long time since he was in battle , and last we saw him in battle was at the 2nd world ninja war like 30 years ago.



> Madara noted that only he could see through the bunshin feint against Madara. Considering how this is super Haxxx Madara on steroids, every other Kage was getting toyed with (and every character in the series would have most likely fell for it).


no Minato wouldnt have fallen for it . he can sense when he put his finger on the ground of the nearby Shinobi are bunshins or real thing , only Tsunade caliber fall for it.


> Why should Tsunade be nice with the person killing her villagers? Being nice with him would mean cooperation, and, that'd mean relinquishing Naruto. If Pain was killing her villagers before hand, then why didn't he warn her about that either? Could it be that he was lying or trying to coerce her into obeying with the threat? Even if he was planning to destroy it earlier (as evidenced by practically everything else in the series, including a long-standing grudge in Konoha).


it's called stalling and buying time , which wouldnt have hurt the village and would save a lot of lives , but no Tsunade had to bark and bark and get the last word even if it meant losing hundreds of lives after the villain warned her not to do that.... killing some people is easy for Pain , when he warns it means it's something big , Tsunade as Hokage should've known , but she was selfish , as evidenced by her reaction to Pain regardless of his warning to her.

simply she could've saved their lives if she shut her mouth or pretended to go along for the time being.


> Is there a specific requirement that he must used x technique to be cornered? Despite the fact that it might not be the most useful technique to use at the time? (And what good would Tsukiyomi do? It'd leave him open to the other 4 kages, including the one that could seal him).


yes it is when it's Amaterasu , and it is the most useful technique when fighting multiple people.

and tsokyomi wouldnt leave him open as it only takes a second.



> Tsunade didn't send Jiraiya to his death. She asked him to investigate into learning the leader of the Akatsuki and his location. Despite this, she even offered him back up and the like, Jiraiya stated no and reinforced the fact that the village needs her, and that he'd be fine on his own. Jiraiya only died because he didn't know Pain's secret. Is that suddenly Tsunade's fault that she can't get intel on the leader of a country that swore itself to secrecy?


yes it is her fault , if she have sided with Danzo , she could've got intel on Pain , or at the least prevented Jiraiya from facing someone he didnt know , either way Tsunade did neither of those 2 things , so she's the one at fault.


> and, as for Pain, she handled him like any other kage would and pretty efficiently. She countered most of the damage he did to Konoha's civillians, and managed to perserve the true treasure of the hidden leaf. It's people.


Hiruzen tried to have a conversation with Orochimaru , not to provoke him out of the bat , but Tsunade have a unique style of dealing with her enemies , provoke the shit out of them even if she was the one in the weaker position , the most important thing is her getting the last word , the people can fend for themselves.



> Evidence and/or scans that the person who he lovingly refers to as "Obaa-chan" and even states that Pain is below her (after Jiraiya's death) really hates her?


he doesnt hate her , he just isnt loyal to her like he was to Jiraiya , but he's not fond of her because she insulted Hiruzen , she send Jiraiya to his death ,  she let his best friends get away , she send Asuma to his death .......................etc.


> Danzo's methods were totally dangerous to Konoha. Not only did it cause Pain, Kabuto (who is hell of a lot more dangerous than anyone),  possible implications in the Third Hokage's death, etc.


at least he doesnt get pressured like Tsunade.

and the other Kages respected him more than Tsunade since he was gonna become the Alliance SHinobi Leader while Tsunade wasnt even considered.



> He didn't choose to leave Naruto out of a bias for him, but for a contrived reason that he needed to die too to fulfill some weird prophecy. In the long run, he did it out of love for Naruto and the village which is a truly respectable reason.


he needed to die for multiple things , for Naruto to become stronger , to give him a chance to see his mother , to keep the stability between the big villages.......etc.


> He didn't do more to the village, and, in the long run, Tsunade has a pretty high ground to surpass him.
> 
> As for admired? Honestly, I agree there. But Minato has a finished legacy. A man that died for the village, and died as a hero. It'd be pretty hard to surpass that.


he didnt do more to the village? lol

he saved the Konoha Jinchuriki from being kidnapped to Kumogakure , while Tsunade let Sound Village kidnap Sasuke.

he Solo'd a whole war by himself while Tsunade needed her 2 teammates to do that.

in his reign Konoha didnt get nuked despite him facing Kurama + Tobi who are much dangerous than Pain , while Tsunade the village got nuked and stomped on also and thousands died and became homeless.

he worked everyday to strengthen Konoha while Tsunade was away gambling and having fun and doing whatever she wants while her Sensei was getting murdered by orochimaru.

he saved Naruto against Pain helped him control Kuuybi , while Naruto saved her more than once , Tsunade was a burden on Naruto while Minato was Naruto's rock as he helped him a lot.

Minato respected his Sensei while Tsunade spoke bad about her Sensei and trashed him.

yeah Tsunade did WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more things for Konoha than Minato and can surpass him easily if she wanted.

and its obvious Minato was admired more than Tsunade , no need to debate that.


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## raizen28 (May 24, 2012)

Tsunade surpassing or better than Minato


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## tsunadefan (May 24, 2012)

only way minato is truly better than tsunade is by winning more battles because of his power.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 24, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> only way minato is truly better than tsunade is by winning more battles because of his power.



He also managed not to provoke an enemy into nuking his village.


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## Cord (May 25, 2012)

_*I do not like Tsunade either. *_But I just hate it when _some_ people let their spite cloud their judgments. Just because they hate a particular character doesn't mean they have to ridicule her/him (like Itachi for example) in every way possible. Whether good or bad, there's always gonna be that person/s who would try to downgrade such, even if it means resorting to poor logic. *(This is clearly seen in the Battledome).* 

Oh well, moving on Tsunade.

She's one of the few female characters who could actually kick ass and her character isn't all that messed up (unlike Sakura). She has few annoying traits though tolerable. 

When in terms of skills, especially battle skills, I agree that she is easily overshadowed by the stronger characters she's compared with, like the Hokages that preceded her and even her co- Sannins (co incidentally are all males. :amazed). But the _fact _remains that she can stomp other strong characters too (you name them). But to those who hate her, that _fact _is completely disregarded or ignored and it's not really surprising.

_Neji would poke the bitch to death._ As much as I want to see him actually do that, that's just not going to happen. .

As for being hokage, I think she's done her job pretty well. But I agree that what she has done during the Pain Invasion was pretty pointless. She over exhausted herself by trying to heal the injured people of her village but the fact that Nagato *reviving all those who have died*, made all her efforts useless, is there (intentionally or non- intentionally, _Kishi screwed her_). No one should blame her for it though, who was she to expect something like *that* anyway? She actually did the right thing except that no matter how it's looked upon and though she's *not* at fault, people would still think that that was pointless. And it really was.

Overall, I do not agree that she sucks. But I admit this review is hilarious.


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## tsunadefan (May 25, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> He also managed not to provoke an enemy into nuking his village.



tsunade unintentionally made the village get nuked. you know, since she didn't know that Pain was gonna do that if he couldn't have a adult discussion without acting like a child. 

minato by the way, made naruto grow up with a lonely and bad childhood ssooo..


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 25, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> tsunade unintentionally made the village get nuked. you know, since she didn't know that Pain was gonna do that if he couldn't have a adult discussion without acting like a child.
> 
> minato by the way, made naruto grow up with a lonely and bad childhood ssooo..



Tsunade acted like a child and refused to negotiate. She left Nagato with no alternatives but to destroy Konoha. 

Minato didn't make Naruto grow up lonely or have a bad childhood. Naruto being an asshole as a kid made him have a bad childhood. Minato wasn't even around for that portion of Naruto's life. Besides what does being a dead dad have to do with being a good Hokage?


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## tsunadefan (May 25, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Tsunade acted like a child and refused to negotiate. She left Nagato with no alternatives but to destroy Konoha.
> 
> Minato didn't make Naruto grow up lonely or have a bad childhood. Naruto being an asshole as a kid made him have a bad childhood. Minato wasn't even around for that portion of Naruto's life. Besides what does being a dead dad have to do with being a good Hokage?



butterfly already discussed with you tsunade's part of the discussion. me repeating it to you will be pointless since it just wont click to you. and pain was already destroying the village when he came in, which was even before their conversation. he was dstroying konoha and wanted naruto. there should have been no basis of negotiation right there. so the "nuking" of konoha was him puting a lot of icing on the cake.

he didn't really? i would think minato would agree with me. after seeing what happened to kushina and knowing what people would think about him, he sealed naruto's fate. and actually, the treatment he gets from people as a result of being a jinchuuriki is what made him have a bad childhood and what made him be a troublemaker. and i was just attacking his choice. him being a good hokage? unfortunately we dont know that much about him like we do tsunade to make good judgements.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 25, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> butterfly already discussed with you tsunade's part of the discussion. me repeating it to you will be pointless since it just wont click to you. and pain was already destroying the village when he came in, which was even before their conversation. he was dstroying konoha and wanted naruto. there should have been no basis of negotiation right there. so the "nuking" of konoha was him puting a lot of icing on the cake.



There is always room to negotiate. Pain's attack on the village was a necessity, Tsunade had already declared a war on the Akatsuki so it would be impossible for Pain to just walk into the village without fighting. 



> he didn't really? i would think minato would agree with me. after seeing what happened to kushina and knowing what people would think about him, he sealed naruto's fate. and actually, the treatment he gets from people as a result of being a jinchuuriki is what made him have a bad childhood and what made him be a troublemaker. and i was just attacking his choice. him being a good hokage? unfortunately we dont know that much about him like we do tsunade to make good judgements.



He chose to sacrifice a great deal by sealing the Kyuubi in Naruto, all for the sake of the village. In my opinion he did more for Konoha in that one night than Tsunade did in her entire life.


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## tsunadefan (May 25, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> There is always room to negotiate. Pain's attack on the village was a necessity, Tsunade had already declared a war on the Akatsuki so it would be impossible for Pain to just walk into the village without fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> He chose to sacrifice a great deal by sealing the Kyuubi in Naruto, all for the sake of the village. In my opinion he did more for Konoha in that one night than Tsunade did in her entire life.



in this case, there is no room or no need for negotiation after what he had done and more importantly what he wanted to take. tsunade should give thought to handing over naruto, one of the more important villagers to pain?! tsunade should give thouht to siding with a criminal organization?! tsunade should give thought to bending to his will?! i don't think so. there is no room for pain, his self-righteousness and his  ideologies! after all they are doing now, causing a rucus in the villages, she and not only her but the other kages, should declare war on them. 

your kidding me?! you have got to be pulling my leg! i don't think you know how much tsunnade contributed to the leaf! that one night could not be more than what tsunade has done for the village. that one night is only comparable to the invasion of pain, imo. i think you need a list of all her contributions! would you like me to reinform you?


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 25, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> in this case, there is no room or no need for negotiation after what he had done and more importantly what he wanted to take. tsunade should give thought to handing over naruto, one of the more important villagers to pain?! tsunade should give thouht to siding with a criminal organization?! tsunade should give thought to bending to his will?! i don't think so. there is no room for pain, his self-righteousness and his  ideologies! after all they are doing now, causing a rucus in the villages, she and not only her but the other kages, should declare war on them.



Negotiation does not mean capitulation. Any competent leader would welcome negotiation. 



> your kidding me?! you have got to be pulling my leg! i don't think you know how much tsunnade contributed to the leaf! that one night could not be more than what tsunade has done for the village. that one night is only comparable to the invasion of pain, imo. i think you need a list of all her contributions! would you like me to reinform you?



Tsunade's notable contributions to the leaf village:

1. Being a part of the Sannin. 
2. Creating the current medic system.
3. Talking Pain into nuking Konoha.

Am I missing any?

Minato's contributions that night:

1. Defeating Tobi (Stalling Tobi's plans.)
2. Saving Konoha from the Kyuubi's attacks (Twice)
3. Sealing half the Kyuubi's chakra in the death god. Sealing half the Kyuubi's chakra in Naruto, creating the chosen child.


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## Hero (May 25, 2012)

I find it hilarious that people ridicule and bash Tsunade for not giving into Pain. I could only imagine what they would say if she did in fact listen to Pain. They would label her a sell out and burn her at the stake. I find it incredulous that people actually think Tsunade provoked Pain when he already had the intention of destroying the village.


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## tsunadefan (May 25, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Negotiation does not mean capitulation. Any competent leader would welcome negotiation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oh, ok, aum... what does negotiation mean? what pain wanted, tsunade could not give. she realized this and didn't give in to his demands. any competent leader would realize the ludicrous demands an opponent requests and shuns them, especially if it is for the sake of the people. tsunade is a competent hokage and capable combatant.

aum, you forgot a few.

tsunade's contribution to the village:
1. i wouldn't really call being a sannin a contribution really but if you see it as none then it should be.
2. created the current medic system.
3. greatly aided in the victory of konoha in the 2nd war
4. indirectly had a great contribution to the 3rd world war through the manifestation of the innovative idea of having a medic on a squad.
5. increased relations and trust with the sand village after their intrusion, which as a result created allies for the village in times of need.
6. is currently fighting against madar in the 4th great shinobi world war.
7. taught 2 out of 3 of the greatest medics in the leaf village.
8. healed and protected the village during the pain invasion.
9. her being one of the famous powerful ninjas of the leaf, she helped to garner fame, prestige and power to the leaf.
10. she started the attacks on akatsuki which not only were to protect her village but the others too.

i think there is a few more. :-D


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 25, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> oh, ok, aum... what does negotiation mean?



You can find the definition of most words by searching for them followed by the word definition. In this case you would search for "negotiation definition" using the google search. 

ne?go?ti?a?tion/nəˌgōSHēˈāSHən/
Noun:	
Discussion aimed at reaching an agreement: "a worldwide ban is currently under negotiation".
The action or process of negotiating: "negotiation of the deals".



> what pain wanted, tsunade could not give. she realized this and didn't give in to his demands. any competent leader would realize the ludicrous demands an opponent requests and shuns them, especially if it is for the sake of the people. tsunade is a competent hokage and capable combatant.



It doesn't matter that Tsunade could not give him the Kyuubi. She could have given him something minor in exchange for something minor. What she did was beyond idiotic. She declared that Konoha would continue to fight until it is destroyed. She gave her enemy no option but to destroy Konoha. That's a very stupid thing to do even if you're winning, it is a very suicidal thing to do when you're losing. 



> aum, you forgot a few.
> 
> tsunade's contribution to the village:
> 1. i wouldn't really call being a sannin a contribution really but if you see it as none then it should be.
> ...



1. Ok...
2. Fine...
3. Covered by 1, the sannin are famous because of their contributions to the war.
4. Covered by 2.
5. A minor contribution. 
6. Not a contribution.
7. Proof?
8. Not a contribution, Pain revived everybody.
9. Covered by 1.
10. Not a contribution. 

I don't see anything in your list which indicates that she contributed more to Konoha than Minato did in that one night. So as things are...

Tsunade:
1. Part of the Sannin.
2. Created the medical system.
3. Formed better ties with the Sand village. 
4. Talked Pain into nuking Konoha.  

Minato:
1. Defeating Tobi (Stalling Tobi's plans.)
2. Saving Konoha from the Kyuubi's attacks (Twice)
3. Sealing half the Kyuubi's chakra in the death god. Sealing half the Kyuubi's chakra in Naruto, creating the chosen child.
4. Formed a seal that later saved Naruto from the Kyuubi during the Pain attack, which resulted in Naruto saving the village.


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## tsunadefan (May 25, 2012)

wow... thanks for that?

aum, i dont think anything else would have substituted for naruto, and i think you know it. and i dont see what was so beyond idiotic when pain was already in the village destroying it and when tsunade already realized he didnt come to negotiate. she just told him she ain't backing down and will fight.

1. ok.
2. good.
3. ok.
4. i guess...
5. definately not minor sir. still a MAJOR contribution.
6. it is a contribution. just like how she aided in the 2nd war she is assisting in the 4th.
7. aum, have you not heard of sakura and shizune. the fact that they were trained under the world renown best medic should be evidence enough.
8. is a contribution. if she did not do what she had to, all of the ninjas and villagers would have died. pain would not have been able to revive everyone, which by your logic would have made pains effort meaningless. 
9. not covered by 1.
10. is a contribution. if not then who knows what would have happened if the akatsuki members that were killed stayed alive. 
11. brought back konoha to its former glory after its destruction in hiruzens reign. by fixing up infrastructures etc.
12. healed kakashi, choji and sasuke as she entered the village, all of which were/are beneficial to the leaf village.
13. helped to prevent orocgimaru from again attacking konoha by not healing his arms and pounding his face whhich led him to run away from the battlefield. 
14. protected naruto from sword stabs/death, as he survived and grew up to be one of the greatest assests to the leaf.

you obviously have blinders on if you didn't see anything. your contributions of tsunade are still lacking. i also dont see much from minato than those 4 that you give from one night.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 25, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> wow... thanks for that?
> 
> aum, i dont think anything else would have substituted for naruto, and i think you know it. and i dont see what was so beyond idiotic when pain was already in the village destroying it and when tsunade already realized he didnt come to negotiate. she just told him she ain't backing down and will fight.



Pain did come to negotiate, he was actually being rather polite too. All he wanted was Naruto's location. A pretty cheap piece of information. 
Link removed
He even offered to help Konoha. In return Tsunade called him a terrorist. 



> 1. ok.
> 2. good.
> 3. ok.
> 4. i guess...
> ...



If you don't see how Minato's contributions completely overshadow everything you listed than there is no point in this argument.


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## tsunadefan (May 25, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Pain did come to negotiate, he was actually being rather polite too. All he wanted was Naruto's location. A pretty cheap piece of information.
> Link removed
> He even offered to help Konoha. In return Tsunade called him a terrorist.
> 
> ...



my mistake on the negotiating part. giving away naruto's location wasn't a cheap piece of info nor a liable one. to tsunade (and others) naruto was the trump card. the powerful secret weapon that it seems no one could contest with at the time. if naruto was captured and kurama exctracted, how would events have unfolded?! terrible really. why cant you understand it was simply out the question to give naruto up to criminals who wanted to start another war!? and how would he help konoha?! why should she even give him a time of her day to give a hear of what he says when he was destroying the leaf village?! his actions spoke louder than his words and she made the right conclusion. pain was a terrorist. she was right not to trust him and agree with his ideas. 

your kidding me... if you really can't come to the epiphany of the magtitude of tsunade's contribution being more than what minato did in just ONE FRICKING NIGHT! then it really does not make sense. you mean to tell me that one night trumps all the contributions tsunade made for konoha?! your obviously extremely biased for minato of biased against tsunade. i am inclined to believe it is the latter. saving her village should encompass minato saving the village from tobi AND kurama imo! at least even one of them. but unfortunately, as an above poster wrote, people's hate make their judgements be couded. meh.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 25, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> my mistake on the negotiating part. giving away naruto's location wasn't a cheap piece of info nor a liable one.



Naruto was far away, revealing his location would cost nothing for Konoha as they could call him back whenever they wanted. On the other hand it would have bought the end to the fighting and invasion of Konoha. Perhaps most importantly it would have bought them some time to regroup. 



> to tsunade (and others) naruto was the trump card. the powerful secret weapon that it seems no one could contest with at the time. if naruto was captured and kurama exctracted, how would events have unfolded?! terrible really.



Revealing his location does not equate to giving him to the enemy. 



> why cant you understand it was simply out the question to give naruto up to criminals who wanted to start another war!?



I'm not criticizing Tsunade for not giving up Naruto. I'm criticizing her on talking Pain into nuking Konoha. 



> and how would he help konoha?! why should she even give him a time of her day to give a hear of what he says when he was destroying the leaf village?!



Well he could help a great deal by seizing the hostilities between Akatsuki and Konoha. When the villagers are being killed the Kage is suppose to try and stop the killing. She isn't suppose to tell the enemy that he needs to keep killing until every villager is dead. 



> his actions spoke louder than his words and she made the right conclusion. pain was a terrorist. she was right not to trust him and agree with his ideas.



Jiraiya barged into the Rain village, kidnapped a Rain shinobi, fought Pain and took one of bodies back to Konoha. Do you expect Pain to ask nicely after that? Konoha began the hostilities, Pain's response was completely justified. 



> your kidding me... if you really can't come to the epiphany of the magtitude of tsunade's contribution being more than what minato did in just ONE FRICKING NIGHT! then it really does not make sense. you mean to tell me that one night trumps all the contributions tsunade made for konoha?! your obviously extremely biased for minato of biased against tsunade. i am inclined to believe it is the latter. saving her village should encompass minato saving the village from tobi AND kurama imo! at least even one of them. but unfortunately, as an above poster wrote, people's hate make their judgements be couded. meh.



Tsunade's contributions are mostly minor and basically worthless. Minato on the other hand saved Konoha several times that night alone. Basically it comes down to this.

If Minato did not do what he did than Konoha would not exist. If Tsunade did not do what she did than Konoha would still exist. Chances are Konoha would be better off considering that it is currently a crater.


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## Summers (May 26, 2012)

Hero said:


> I find it hilarious that people ridicule and bash Tsunade for not giving into Pain. I could only imagine what they would say if she did in fact listen to Pain. They would label her a sell out and burn her at the stake. I find it incredulous that people actually think Tsunade provoked Pain when he already had the intention of destroying the village.



I have come to the choice that its Best to ignore the known Tsunade haters, some of what they see it pretty out there. Negotiate with Mr.Nuke the world, doing whatever he says etc. If she did they would call her crazy for thinking that would work. Find myself saying "Wait what!?" too many times.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 26, 2012)

summers said:


> I have come to the choice that its Best to ignore the known Tsunade haters, some of what they see it pretty out there. Negotiate with Mr.Nuke the world, doing whatever he says etc. If she did they would call her crazy for thinking that would work. Find myself saying "Wait what!?" too many times.



Negotiating with the enemy is crazy? Every military should adopt a win or be destroyed policy?

Don't be a fanatic, peace is always a better alternative to war. Warmongers will always lose.


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## CrazyAries (May 26, 2012)

Hero said:


> I find it hilarious that people ridicule and bash Tsunade for not giving into Pain. I could only imagine what they would say if she did in fact listen to Pain. They would label her a sell out and burn her at the stake. I find it incredulous that people actually think Tsunade provoked Pain when he already had the intention of destroying the village.





summers said:


> I have come to the choice that its Best to ignore the known Tsunade haters, some of what they see it pretty out there. Negotiate with Mr.Nuke the world, doing whatever he says etc. If she did they would call her crazy for thinking that would work. Find myself saying "Wait what!?" too many times.



It's called having it both ways.



TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Negotiating with the enemy is crazy? Every military should adopt a win or be destroyed policy?
> 
> Don't be a fanatic, peace is always a better alternative to war. Warmongers will always lose.



In the case of Pain, no, negotiating with the enemy would not have worked.  He goal was to capture Naruto and extract his bijuu.  Nagato also wanted to punish Konoha.  I have doubt that he would done a little something extra even if Tsunade said things that he wanted to hear.  Now, Tsunade wanted Naruto to face Pain anyway, but on terms that befitted Naruto.  If Pain had gone to Myobokuzan before Naruto could get back to his village, Pain probably would have had an advantage and he would attack the toads.  Even if that was not Konoha, the deaths of any toads would have taken away from Naruto's arsenal.  His summons are still part of his power and the attack may have messed with his Senjutsu training and preparation.

Even if some readers think that Tsunade provoked Deva Path, the fact of the matter is that he was baiting and taunting her.  He wanted a certain response from Tsunade and he extended the conversation as the ANBU guards were talking to her about regrouping.

And even if Kishimoto did not let Tsunade fight Pain, he would never let any Hokage try to bargain with him.  If she complied with Pain like some have suggested she should, the rest of the villagers would call her a traitor and demand her dismissal and rightfully so.  The best course of action was not to divulge Naruto's location and a number of people sacrificed their lives to keep that secret.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 27, 2012)

CrazyAries said:


> In the case of Pain, no, negotiating with the enemy would not have worked.  He goal was to capture Naruto and extract his bijuu.



Why wouldn't negotiation work? Is Nagato completely unreasonable? Did he refuse to listen to Naruto?



> Nagato also wanted to punish Konoha.  I have doubt that he would done a little something extra even if Tsunade said things that he wanted to hear.



Clearly he wanted to punish Konoha, that's why he sacrificed his own life to revive everybody. Probably also the reason why he offered to help them. 



> Now, Tsunade wanted Naruto to face Pain anyway, but on terms that befitted Naruto.  If Pain had gone to Myobokuzan before Naruto could get back to his village, Pain probably would have had an advantage and he would attack the toads.



Do you think that the mountain is only a few miles away from Konoha? Do you think that Pain knew the way? Do you think Konoha didn't have a way to get in touch with Naruto?

Even if that was not Konoha, the deaths of any toads would have taken away from Naruto's arsenal.  His summons are still part of his power and the attack may have messed with his Senjutsu training and preparation.



> Even if some readers think that Tsunade provoked Deva Path, the fact of the matter is that he was baiting and taunting her.



That some high level of selective reading you have. Pain came to Tsunade and made a proposal which favored Konoha. Tsunade responded by insulting him. How is Pain the one doing the baiting?



> He wanted a certain response from Tsunade and he extended the conversation as the ANBU guards were talking to her about regrouping.



Really? How important do you think Tsunade is to Pain? You have amazing delusions of Tsunade's grandeur. If Pain wanted to nuke Konoha from the start he would have done so, he didn't need any kind of response from Tsunade.



> And even if Kishimoto did not let Tsunade fight Pain, he would never let any Hokage try to bargain with him.  If she complied with Pain like some have suggested she should, the rest of the villagers would call her a traitor and demand her dismissal and rightfully so.  The best course of action was not to divulge Naruto's location and a number of people sacrificed their lives to keep that secret.



The best course of action was to provoke Pain into nuking the village? That doesn't sound quite right...


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## CrazyAries (May 27, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Why wouldn't negotiation work? Is Nagato completely unreasonable? Did he refuse to listen to Naruto?



Until the paths were defeated, there was no negotiating with Pain.  Deva Path only began to talk to Naruto once the other bodies were taken out and Nagato was only willing to listen to Naruto once Deva was dealt with.  Nagato respected power. 



TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Clearly he wanted to punish Konoha, that's why he sacrificed his own life to revive everybody. Probably also the reason why he offered to help them.



Nagato sacrificed his life only after his talk with Naruto.  That conversion had two parts: The defeat of Pain, as I mentioned, and the point where Naruto reminded Nagato who he was before.  Jiraiya, their former master had not gotten that far.



TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Do you think that the mountain is only a few miles away from Konoha? Do you think that Pain knew the way? Do you think Konoha didn't have a way to get in touch with Naruto?



There was no explanation of how Pain would get to Myobokuzan, but he seemed confident that he could reach that location.



TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> That some high level of selective reading you have. Pain came to Tsunade and made a proposal which favored Konoha. Tsunade responded by insulting him. How is Pain the one doing the baiting?



It's hilarious that you accuse me of selective reading, when that is what you are doing with the manga and my post.  Pain's proposal did not benefit Konoha in any way shape or form.  He wanted the village to hand over Naruto so Akatsuki could extract his bijuu.  How would that benefit Konoha in the long run?  As Deva Path would later tell Naruto, the plan was to use the bijuu to create a nuke.  If that plan was inacted, what are the chances that some country would point that nuke at the Land of Fire? 

Deva Path was baiting Tsunade.  Read those chapters again a go over his words to her.  He was walking away, but then decided to turn and talk some more.  He remarked on the chakra that Tsunade and her ANBU guards collected to their feet to try and withstand the force of Shinra Tensei and told them that all was pointless in the face of great power. 

Anyhow, the real plan was being carried out by Tobi.  If what he said is true about Mugen Tsukuyomi, that benefits no nation whatsoever and none of the Kage at the summit wanted _*that*_ plan to succeed.  Were they provoking Tobi by saying no?



TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> Really? How important do you think Tsunade is to Pain? You have amazing delusions of Tsunade's grandeur. If Pain wanted to nuke Konoha from the start he would have done so, he didn't need any kind of response from Tsunade.



And no, actually...those who accuse Tsunade of provoking Pain make a bigger deal out of her words than others do and thus inflate her role in that arc.  I have recognized how small her role in the Pain Arc was.  The setup was for Naruto to surpass Jiraiya as a sage and prove himself as a hero and Pain's use of Chou Shinra Tensei made for more of a setup.

Another thing that the use of Chou Shinra Tensei did was put Pain at an early disadvantage when Naruto arrived.  In fact, time was wasted when it was obvious that Naruto was not in the village.  All Nagato needed to do was use Human Path to approach Tsunade for the information.  If he tool her out, the would be no more heals for the villagers, but no...Deva Path had to taunt her.

Now, am I to believe that a stranger's words to a terrorist carry more weight than words from his friend?  Konan warned Nagato that he would shorten his life span by nuking the village, but he ignored them.  He said that he was punishing _*the village*_, not the woman who refused to bend over.  He had to take time for the windup, during which he could have decided against it.

And I said this a while back, but this was he guy who killed Hanzo, his family and associates.  Did all of them provoke Nagato?



TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> The best course of action was to provoke Pain into nuking the village? That doesn't sound quite right...



This is what I said:



CrazyAries said:


> The best course of action *was not to divulge Naruto's location*



I guess you take that as provoking then.


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## Milliardo (May 27, 2012)

this man seems to know what he is talking about. i agree with his points tsunade is a poor leader and her fighting ability isn't comparable to the other kages. i think he made a good point she would have been better off not put in a leadership role and someone who just assists the village kind of like jiraiya.


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## Sarry (May 27, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> *I watch this dude's channel for reviews on manga. this just came out Hours Ago. Explanations for Tsunade? Her Character?*[YOUTUBE]d94k-B4DIU8[/YOUTUBE]



As a rant, it is boring. It is just an idiot going off a tangent to please fans....

When he gets to the Hokage part, he really doesn't get the whole point of "trusting your fellow ninjas" part.
A hokage isn't someone that's a beast in war, it is someone that accepted and trusted by all: so that people can work together and use their abilities efficiently. That's the whole point of the 4 ninja teams, and the will of fire. 

Tsunade may not be a beast in battle, but she's a good leader and a good hokage.
If he wanted a bad kage, he could have looked at Oro...


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 27, 2012)

CrazyAries said:


> Until the paths were defeated, there was no negotiating with Pain.  Deva Path only began to talk to Naruto once the other bodies were taken out and Nagato was only willing to listen to Naruto once Deva was dealt with.  Nagato respected power.



That's bull, Nagato was more than willing to listen. In fact part of the reason why the fight was so difficult for Naruto was that Nagato kept asking difficult questions which Naruto could not answer. 



> Nagato sacrificed his life only after his talk with Naruto.  That conversion had two parts: The defeat of Pain, as I mentioned, and the point where Naruto reminded Nagato who he was before.  Jiraiya, their former master had not gotten that far.



If he hated Konoha he would not have sacrificed his life to save the village. Tsunade provoked him into nuking Konoha by making it the only option available to him. 



> There was no explanation of how Pain would get to Myobokuzan, but he seemed confident that he could reach that location.



Before Konoha could contact them? Seems a bit far fetched. 



> It's hilarious that you accuse me of selective reading, when that is what you are doing with the manga and my post.  Pain's proposal did not benefit Konoha in any way shape or form.  He wanted the village to hand over Naruto so Akatsuki could extract his bijuu.  How would that benefit Konoha in the long run?  As Deva Path would later tell Naruto, the plan was to use the bijuu to create a nuke.  If that plan was inacted, what are the chances that some country would point that nuke at the Land of Fire?



Pain stated that he would be the one controlling the war. He also stated that he would help Konoha for the price of a single life. I don't know how he would help Konoha, however insulting him as a terrorist in response to his kind offer seems idiotic at best.



> Deva Path was baiting Tsunade.  Read those chapters again a go over his words to her.  He was walking away, but then decided to turn and talk some more.  He remarked on the chakra that Tsunade and her ANBU guards collected to their feet to try and withstand the force of Shinra Tensei and told them that all was pointless in the face of great power.



Again, Pain had no reason to bait Tsunade nor did he. His conversation with Tsunade made one thing obvious, Konoha would fight to the last man. Pain's choices were to destroy or be destroyed, it's that simple.


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## tsunadefan (May 28, 2012)

@ firsthokageofthewood
1. was he far away really? i guess i didn't know, aum... how though, do you know that if pein didnt know his location or had a way to reach there quickly? revealing his location would have cost a good deal actually. not only could pein get the opportunity to find him and carry out his plans but sureky, danzo and his followers would try to stop tsunade or konoha's efforts to try and contact naruto like the last time. are you sure about the end of the fighting and invasion? didnt pein hate konoha and would have punished it anyway? wouldnt he have come back to destroy it anyway? and tsunade had katsuya all over the place. they could have contacted each other. and so, the point of regrouping was for what now?
2. actualky, it does or would for the people around her. it obviously does equate to that.
3. but your saying that if tsunade did comply, then he would notbhave destroted the village.
4. seizing the hostilities? lol, tsunade kinda started it, or more correctly put, encouraged it. so that would not been any form of assistance to tsunade. and lol, she didnt really say that pain needs to keep killing.
5. jiraiya was only being a spy if i remember correctly and pain attaked him. plus, the leader of akatsuki was there soooo, yeah. and te point is not whether or not he should ask nicely. it is about whether or not she should trust and agree with a terrorist. and actually, akatsuki started it via itachi and kisame and further back tobi. 
6. lol, what can i say? if you wanna believe your very "unbiased" opinion of tsunade then fine. and i guess that by that logic then the previous hokages trumps what minato did in one night. i guess by that logic, then if wasn't for tsunade naruto would have died, which results in no one tnj'ing pain, which results in naruto not aiding the villages in the 4th world war (which is important btw). and i dont see how any other hokage would stop pain's massive shinra tensei really. tsunade was perfect for that imo.


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## TheFirstHokageOfTheWood (May 28, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> @ firsthokageofthewood
> 1. was he far away really? i guess i didn't know, aum... how though, do you know that if pein didnt know his location or had a way to reach there quickly? revealing his location would have cost a good deal actually. not only could pein get the opportunity to find him and carry out his plans but sureky, danzo and his followers would try to stop tsunade or konoha's efforts to try and contact naruto like the last time. are you sure about the end of the fighting and invasion? didnt pein hate konoha and would have punished it anyway? wouldnt he have come back to destroy it anyway? and tsunade had katsuya all over the place. they could have contacted each other. and so, the point of regrouping was for what now?
> 2. actualky, it does or would for the people around her. it obviously does equate to that.
> 3. but your saying that if tsunade did comply, then he would notbhave destroted the village.
> ...



Link removed
It would take a normal and none crippled shinobi a month to reach the mountain. Nagato being crippled would take much longer, it took him about a week to reach Konoha when Jiraiya reached Rain in less than a day. The information is not only dirt cheap to give but would also buy much more time than Konoha actually needed. 

I don't know what your list is in response to, could you make that a bit more clear?


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## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

The return of The Wooden boy.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Don't worry, you'll be a real boy some day


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## CrazyAries (May 29, 2012)

TheFirstHokageOfTheWood said:


> That's bull, Nagato was more than willing to listen. In fact part of the reason why the fight was so difficult for Naruto was that Nagato kept asking difficult questions which Naruto could not answer.



The fight at the end was so difficult because of Pain's abilities and Naruto's limitations.

Anyway, Nagato respected power.  After Yahiko's group was betrayed by Hanzo, Nagato became jaded and felt that force was the only way to establish peace.  He did ask Naruto if he had a better plan, but didn't really take the jinchuriki seriously until Pain was defeated and they both had that talk.  As in previous cases, Naruto had to use force in order for his opponent to listen to him.  This has been the case since the beginning of this manga. 



> If he hated Konoha he would not have sacrificed his life to save the village. Tsunade provoked him into nuking Konoha by making it the only option available to him.



Nagato only sacrificed his life *after* Naruto talked to him and reminded him of the child Jiraiya met, trained, and got to know all those years ago.  And no, nuking Konoha was not the only option Nagato had.  As I have stressed numerous times, he was in control of the entire situation and he had more than one option to deal with Tsunade.  He could have just attacked her directly if her words in particular pissed him off.



> Before Konoha could contact them? Seems a bit far fetched.



Konoha had a way of contacting Myobokuzan, but Danzo killed it.  Remember that messenger toad?



> Pain stated that he would be the one controlling the war. He also stated that he would help Konoha for the price of a single life. I don't know how he would help Konoha, however insulting him as a terrorist in response to his kind offer seems idiotic at best.



That was a Deal with the Devil and you know it.  There was no reason for the village to compromise and negotiate with someone who invaded their village, guns a-blazing, and was part of a terrorist organization.  No one in that village had any reason to trust Pain and it was evident that by giving up Naruto, Akatsuki would be handed the key to win any war it waged.  Even if Pain controlled the war, he could still do what he wanted.

Plus:  Tsunade didn't insult him.  She just told him the truth, as he did told her some truths about the five Great Nations.



> Again, Pain had no reason to bait Tsunade nor did he. His conversation with Tsunade made one thing obvious, Konoha would fight to the last man. Pain's choices were to destroy or be destroyed, it's that simple.



He had a very good reason to bait her and that was because she was from the village that he despised.  If you will remember, it was too Konoha nin who killed his parents.  Danzo allied with Hanzo to attack Yahiko's group.  Additionally, Konohagakure was one of the Five Great Nations, and Deva Path's rant included how those nations staged their wars in smaller countries and villages like Ame.

When Pain entered the village and started asking for Naruto's location, no one gave him that information, despite what the paths were doing.  That should have served as sign enough that Konoha would fight to the last man.  What Tsunade said was along those lines.  Anything else would be a betrayal on her part.

Now considering that, how do words compare to Nagato's history and strategy when it came to him nuking the village?  If anything, Nagato wanted to punish Konoha and he said as much as Konan was trying to talk him out of using Chou Shinra Tensei.  Additionally, an ANBU guard talked about regrouping and Tsunade was willing to do just that....provided Pain left.  However, Deva Path turned back and extended the conversation...Do you think he let the village regroup with the knowledge it had on Pain's paths?


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## raizen28 (May 31, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> The return of The Wooden boy.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


..........???


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## Silent Breaker (May 31, 2012)

100 % I agree with him there is a movie called the good the bad and the ugly 
tsunade is the same but without good ! she maybe isn't that terrible character
but what makes her bad character is being hokage and without being powerful 
she has zero leadership character and the bast example is pain invasion proves
how much she is bad bad hokage just depends on naruto who just 16 years old
even asuma's death is her responsibility I mean she sent fodders with asuma 
agianst 2 Akatsuki members hidan and kakazu WTF tsunade you are great kage !
kage role should be for kakashi and about neji he's definitely stronger than tsunade his taijutsu "*Juuken*" is the best in the series no doubt about that he has great defence + he's faster he easy can block her arms or block her 64 chakra points in seconds at least he had potential to be great character in his generation like gaara if just kishi kept neji's relevance how much this manga could have been great really 
because he's awesome wasted character unlike to tsunade bad character with 
screentime this is the different between the good and the bad + ugly


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## Cord (May 31, 2012)

Silent Breaker said:


> kage role should be for kakashi and about neji he's definitely stronger than tsunade his taijutsu "*Juuken*" is the best in the series no doubt about that he has great defence + he's faster he easy can block her arms or block her 64 chakra points in secondss at least ..



While I agree with you that Kakashi could've been a better Hokage, I don't think that Neji is stronger than her though. Jyuuken may be fatal to others but not to Tsunade since she can regenerate any damaged organs/ cells. Tsunade is possibly the worst match for Neji in Taijutsu.



> unlike to tsunade bad character with
> screentime this is the different between the good and the bad + ugly





PS: Don't get me wrong, I love Neji too. I just don't think he can defeat Tsunade.


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## raizen28 (Jun 19, 2012)

@SilentBreaker.Well neji does have better taijutsu


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## tsunadefan (Jun 21, 2012)

Everyone should know neji loses to tsunade. Neji lacking speed feats is one of the factors. Another one is that she has a summoning. Another one is that she is resilient enough to comeback from whatever he throws etc.


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## Cord (Jun 21, 2012)

Not because he's lacking speed feats. But yes, it's also because of Tsunade's regenerative abilities that render Neji's techniques, futile.


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## Grep (Jun 21, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> I can't stand American/English people trying to pronounce Japanese names or stuff in general.
> 
> I shall watch it though.



I am sure you also hate Japanese people butchering the English language in every single thing where a Japanese person has attempted to speak English right? No? Cool story weeb.


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## tsunadefan (Jun 21, 2012)

I think it is because he is lacking them. Unless his part 1 feats will be used. Even then, speed difference is not that different to cause any great effect. And if neji attacks her 64 palms then the ability to heal will be most likely negated. Tsunade's resilence and good reflexes and dodging ability is what will help her.


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## Jad (Jun 21, 2012)

I always watch KingOfLightnings reviews, so freaking hilarious. I love his over the top noises, like "NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" xD


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## tsunadefan (Jun 22, 2012)

Reasons like this are why I can never completely trust reviews. Especially informal ones. Reviews like this are highly based on opinions and biases instead of the truth, what readers would like, and what about a certain character, show etc that should be criticized. Eg, the graphics of a game. This reviewer obviously is not worth to literally be taken serious.


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## raizen28 (Jun 22, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> Reasons like this are why I can never completely trust reviews. Especially informal ones. Reviews like this are highly based on opinions and biases instead of the truth, what readers would like, and what about a certain character, show etc that should be criticized. Eg, the graphics of a game. This reviewer obviously is not worth to literally be taken serious.


Yeah like Tsunade is hyped with opinions and baseless claims. Cut him some slack.


I just wanted to reply back for people who think otherwise.


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## tsunadefan (Jun 23, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> Yeah like Tsunade is hyped with opinions and baseless claims. Cut him some slack.
> 
> 
> I just wanted to reply back for people who think otherwise.



Lol @ tsunade being hyped by "baseless claims" and "opinions". Yeah, I don't think so. I have hardly seen any claims by tsunade supporters that are just opinions. Tsunade fans usually have facts that they try to debate based off of feats and common sense. This reviewer just shouldn't be taken so seriously as a reviewer! Just something to laugh about how butthurt this guy seems at the mere idea that tsunade is invented.


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## Undead (Jun 23, 2012)

Am I the only one who finds him annoying?


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## Namikaze Minato (Jun 23, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> Lol @ tsunade being hyped by "baseless claims" and "opinions". Yeah, I don't think so. I have hardly seen any claims by tsunade supporters that are just opinions. Tsunade fans usually have facts that they try to debate based off of feats and common sense. This reviewer just shouldn't be taken so seriously as a reviewer! Just something to laugh about how butthurt this guy seems at the mere idea that tsunade is invented.



then you dont come to the BD often i take it?

here check these sayings , it's been said by them.



> Raikiri to the heart makes her regenerate
> Has Better Taijutsu Feats than Kakashi
> Blitz Madara and Orochimaru
> React to Minato's Hiraishin from 15ft.
> ...



Your welcome


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## Kisame (Jun 23, 2012)

All I see Tsunade as is a piece of meat. Delicious sexy milf meat.


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## tsunadefan (Jun 23, 2012)

@ namikaze, I have actually been in the battledome quite a few times to the point that I know your an avid tsunade hater.  Some of those claims I have seen some I have not. That produces a question in my mind wondering if you made those up?! If not, then I am sure that a few of those claims were said out of sarcasm or the like. Most of those claims I agree with btw. 
@ general readers, none the less, the claims that tsunade fans arguements are baseless and false should not excuse the fact that this reviewer is giving a review based of a bias that is highly against tsunade, and as a result should not be taken as a god of reviews or something like that.


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## raizen28 (Jun 23, 2012)

The Reviewer is just stating some Facts. And yes those claims were seriously made by Tsunade Fans.


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## Shizune (Jun 23, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Your welcome



you're*

On topic: this man is irritating and I didn't get past the first few minutes of the video. He'd do well to take some time to refine his speaking and presentation.


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## Orochimaru800 (Jun 23, 2012)

tsunadefan said:


> @ namikaze, I have actually been in the battledome quite a few times to the point that I know your an avid tsunade hater.  Some of those claims I have seen some I have not. That produces a question in my mind wondering if you made those up?! If not, then I am sure that a few of those claims were said out of sarcasm or the like. Most of those claims I agree with btw.
> @ general readers, none the less, the claims that tsunade fans arguements are baseless and false should not excuse the fact that this reviewer is giving a review based of a bias that is highly against tsunade, and as a result should not be taken as a god of reviews or something like that.



He isn't making those up. All of those statements he made a were truly stated in the BD and the KL. And none of them were said out of sarcasm.


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## tsunadefan (Jun 23, 2012)

IF what you said is true orochimaru, then the few who made some of  claims like that are mistaken and probably new. The more well known and respected fans of tsunade debate facts from feats and common sense most times at least.


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## Olympian (Jun 24, 2012)

The Neji wank never ever gets old.


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## violentrl (Jun 27, 2012)

Holy shit , I've searched Kingoflightning one piece and I found several threads about him, thinking that hes a member of this forum... Finds out that some guy posts 10+ threads about another man over the internet. 

U stalk bro?


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