# Most Ridiculous Arguments You've Seen IN the NBD



## Marvel (Aug 28, 2018)

I did this awhile back so im interested to see if people's expirences have changed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 28, 2018)

VoTE 1 Naruto and Sasuke beat Tsunade

A thread of people arguing Kimmimaro beats Tsunade and Hiruzen 2v1

A4 solo’ing Team Sarutobi 

Prime Hanzo not Kage level

Reactions: Like 7


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## Marvel (Aug 28, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> VoTE 1 Naruto and Sasuke beat Tsunade
> 
> A thread of people arguing Kimmimaro beats Tsunade and Hiruzen 2v1
> 
> ...


 

Oh damn the first two gave me a good laugh


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## Marvel (Aug 28, 2018)

I think the most ridicolous argument i can remember is Bee soloing the sannin neg diff


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 28, 2018)

By character...

*Jman
*

Can react to instant teleportation with no diff
Has summons faster than V2 A
Has Katons that beat Amaterasu in a direct clash
Goemon > FRS and Amaterasu
Immune to the Doton < Raiton aspect of the elemental wheel
Can 1 shot boss summons with Taijutsu even tho he couldnt 1shot Ningendo
Is overall > SM Kabuto in a 1v1
Is somehow immune to all negative aspects of portrayal. Such as being outright stated to be SM Narutos inferior...And shown to be SM narutos inferior...Multiple times over...Apparently this doesnt count.

*Oro
*

Can 1shot 3A with Five pronged seal because it knocked a 12 year old Naruto unconscious
Can react to Raikage tier speeds despite the fact SM Naruto barely could
Is capable of hurting a guy who could tank FRS and wrestle with Gyuki
His numbing effect in his blood that BoS Sasuke all but walked off and had 0 effect on Sasukes ability to control chakra can 1 shot 3A
Can use his white snake form when he isnt trying to steal someones body
*Kisame
*

Can beat EMS madara in a fight unless Madara uses Izanagi
Kisame can fly with his suiton sharks
Kisame is stronger than or equal to Itachi because "theyre partners" despite the fact partners in akatsuki NEVER correlate in strength
Ive got some other good ones on Itachi and other characters ill add in later

Also inb4 people think its a "ridiculous argument" that Hebi Sasuke can CONTEST (not even defeat, just CONTEST) people who are in his fucking tier

Reactions: Like 3


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## Alita (Aug 28, 2018)

-People believing the sannin can keep up with the raikages in speed

-People believing sasori can beat A3, A4, Onoki, Muu, or gengetsu

-People believing base minato can beat folks like A3 or orochimaru when he has no way to harm the former and no way to put down for good the later.

-People believing jiraiya has a shot at beating sm kabuto, pein, or itachi being serious and going all out when he has been blatantly portrayed as being inferior to all 3.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 28, 2018)

> BM Minato being 10x faster than BSM Naruto

> BSM Naruto = EMS Sasuke

> Kisame beating anybody above Pein

> A4 being immune to physical touch

> Sakura tagging A4 or A3 because she "tagged Kaguya"

> Itachi blitzing KCM Naruto

A lot of stupid shit tbh

Also...




WorldsStrongest said:


> Can 1shot 3A with Five pronged seal because it knocked a 12 year old Naruto unconscious
> 
> Can react to Raikage tier speeds despite the fact SM Naruto barely could
> 
> ...


Sounds like salt from the A3 vs Orochimaru thread because I utterly embarassed your arguments so bad tht you resorted to making shit up like RnY making you immune to physical touch lul

R.I.P to those arguments by the way

Reactions: Like 5


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## Mithos (Aug 28, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> A thread of people arguing Kimmimaro beats Tsunade and Hiruzen 2v1



I distinctly remember that thread. Not the NBD's finest moment, for sure.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 28, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Sounds like salt from the A3 vs Orochimaru thread because I utterly embarassed your arguments


You mean where you made atrocious arguments and didnt actually refute anything i said?

And are now congratulating yourself in another thread?

Seems like another day in the life pal

Come back to me when you prove Oro is SM naruto tier+ in reactions and has FRS+ tier firepower


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> R.I.P to those arguments


Then come back with this fucking "RIP" bullshit with a straight fucking face 

Kid you proved nothing and you know it

Ill gladly take you up on it again tho if you wish

Just bump the thread and tag me in it 

Wont be tonight tho as im passing out soon but ill get around to it i promise you


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## Serene Grace (Aug 28, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Come back to me when you prove Oro is SM naruto tier+


Why do i need to when fodder reacted to him twice

Not to mention he got cleanly reacted to by a SM Naruto clone that isn't even one the same strength as the original



WorldsStrongest said:


> You mean where you made atrocious arguments and didnt actually refute anything i said?
> 
> And are now congratulating yourself in another thread?



I refuted every last argument in that thread especially your infamous "immune to touch" one. Shall i post it here so everybody can see embarassment on your behalf? Stay in ya lane 

You basically lied and twisted about everything I said


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## Zero890 (Aug 28, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Goemon > FRS and Amaterasu



Not even You pay attention to the arguments of others and come with this bullshit.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 28, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Ill gladly take you up on it again tho if you wish
> 
> Just bump the thread and tag me in it


Eh no I'd rather not run in circles with you ove a topic you obviously won't change your mind on, I respect my time

I only even talked abkut this because you decided to be a smartass, and even went the extent of putting arguments in my mouth


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## SakuraLover16 (Aug 28, 2018)

Ohs


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## Marvel (Aug 28, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You mean where you made atrocious arguments and didnt actually refute anything i said?
> 
> And are now congratulating yourself in another thread?
> 
> ...


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## JuicyG (Aug 28, 2018)

Kakashi not being able to use Kamui offensively


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## Trojan (Aug 28, 2018)

the founder's worshippers still have worst arguments of any fanbase ever regarding "Naruto" series. 

They counter everything and excel at everything "just because"

Hashirama dealing with TBB/PS means he can counter all Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, and sealing jutsu that have ever existed. 
Because dealing with 1-2 attacks means you can deal with all the rest...

Deidara used C4 on him directly? Well, he dealt with PS. The microbombs get trashed. 
Nagato used Human path on him directly? Well, he dealt with PS. His soul does not get affected.
He got beheaded? Welp, too bad, he dealt with PS.  


And the list goes on...



And those who think DMS Kakashi is stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke. 



the rest of the arguments are irrelevant compared to those 2-3 imo. Kappa

Reactions: Like 2


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## SakuraLover16 (Aug 28, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Kakashi not being able to use Kamui offensively


It's not that he can't use it offensively just not 1v1 against someone his calibur


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## JuicyG (Aug 28, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It's not that he can't use it offensively just not 1v1 against someone his calibur



Why? He used it fast enough to warp a Susanoo Arrow coming his way....So he cant react and use it against an opponent 1v1 who is slower than that? 

How does that make any logical sense?


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## Marvel (Aug 28, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Why? He used it fast enough to warp a Susanoo Arrow coming his way....So he cant react and use it against an opponent 1v1 who is slower than that?
> 
> How does that make any logical sense?


Lmfao im tempted to use that bullshit as one of the most ridicoulous arguments


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## SakuraLover16 (Aug 28, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Why? He used it fast enough to warp a Susanoo Arrow coming his way....So he cant react and use it against an opponent 1v1 who is slower than that?
> 
> How does that make any logical sense?


I mean against someone who will try him in close quarters mainly those who focus on taijutsu, those who can sense the build up of chakra things along those lines it's easier to use it against someone who prefers to keep their distance or stay in the mid-range.
P.S. Even though we disagree sometimes I appreciate how civil you are even a little kindness goes a long way even over the internet.


Gifted said:


> Lmfao im tempted to use that bullshit as one of the most ridicoulous arguments


Whatever makes you feel better about yourself. I refuse to disrespect you or myself.


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## Marvel (Aug 28, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Whatever makes you feel better about yourself. I refuse to disrespect you or myself.


Listing some of the most ridicoulous arguments i've ever seen/heard dosen't make me feel better about myself.

I don't know what lead you to beleve that.

But....good for you


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 29, 2018)

@SakuraLover16  was so eager to help with this thread that she contributed to another argument on the list.

JK

But for real, that argument makes no sense, Kakashi himself said he would have taken out Kakuzu with it had Naruto not showed up and he was gonna kill MS Obito with Kamui right off the bat, someone even beyond his level, but of course Obito is the only person who can't be affected by it. I believe you are mistaken by both statements and portrayal.


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## JuicyG (Aug 29, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> @SakuraLover16  was so eager to help with this thread that she contributed to another argument on the list.
> 
> JK
> 
> But for real, that argument makes no sense, Kakashi himself said he would have taken out Kakuzu with it had Naruto not showed up and he was gonna kill MS Obito with Kamui right off the bat, someone even beyond his level, but of course Obito is the only person who can't be affected by it. I believe you are mistaken by both statements and portrayal.



The problem with people using the portrayal argument against Kakashi using Kamui is that his Kamui isn't even his. Its obito's, so the portrayal of Kakashi's kamui snipe needs to be with Obito and not Kakashi in the first place. Because we know that if Obito had that eye instead of Kakashi, people's idea of who he could snipe with it would change dramatically from Kakashi using, despite it being the same Kamui and Kakashi canonically being on par or superior to Obito in area of being tactical


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 29, 2018)

Pretty much any argument involving the Masters being considered well above and capable of easily killing any of the Five Kage (except Mei), the Sannin, Edo Kage (Mu, Gengetsu, & A3 specifically), and being on Minato's level (or even above). So on this forum in this section specifically, the Masters take the spot for the most wanked. As apparently these two have been boosted multiple tiers in the War Arc. 
Virtually any argument involving why Hebi Sasuke is superior to Tsunade.
Every argument about why Tsunade's performance against the Susanoo clones wasn't impressive. 
Any argument about Tsunade being inferior to mid tier Akatsuki members.


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## JuicyG (Aug 29, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Pretty much any argument involving the Masters being considered well above and capable of easily killing any of the Five Kage (except Mei), the Sannin, Edo Kage (Mu, Gengetsu, & A3 specifically), and being on Minato's level (or even above). So on this forum in this section specifically, the Masters take the spot for the most wanked. As apparently these two have been boosted multiple tiers in the War Arc.
> Virtually any argument involving why Hebi Sasuke is superior to Tsunade.
> Every argument about why Tsunade's performance against the Susanoo clones wasn't impressive.
> Any argument about Tsunade being inferior to mid tier Akatsuki members.



I don't think the masters on the sannin level either. But they possess circumstantial abilities that are dangerous to most including those in the high kage ranking; i.e 8th gate and Kamui. Outside of that the masters are well below the sannin generally speaking.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Phenomenon (Aug 29, 2018)

People refusing to admit Itachi>Orochimaru as if the manga didn't outright state Itachi's superiority clear as day, And also people interpreting their own belief of Oro only admitting inferiority because he was weakened when he said it at the time.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kyu (Aug 29, 2018)

Insistence that EoS Naruto/Sasuke are overrated yet can't explain precisely why _and_ are nowhere to be seen when an abundance of evidence is posted to shut down their horseshit.
Hashirama can no sell Tsukuyomi because he's strong.
Juubi Madara being forced to back up by 7G Gai despite him intercepting Hirudora _at point blank_ mere moments later & reacting to_ 8G Gai_.
Kimmimaro favored over any kage lvl ninja worth a shit.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 29, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Pretty much any argument involving the Masters being considered well above and capable of easily killing any of the Five Kage (except Mei), the Sannin, Edo Kage (Mu, Gengetsu, & A3 specifically), and being on Minato's level (or even above). So on this forum in this section specifically, the Masters take the spot for the most wanked. As apparently these two have been boosted multiple tiers in the War Arc.


Can you post any examples of people seriously placing the masters *well above* Gokage and Co. or *easily killing* any of them?

Or is this butthurt because people argue that they have a good shot of winning against them?

Big difference.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NamesClassified (Aug 29, 2018)

Once upon a time their was this one slickhead who made the suggestion that Genin Neji could defeat part 1 Kakashi. He then proceeded to throw around nutty ass insults because his arguments couldn't hold up under scrutiny.

Here's some of the shit he said.




J★J♥ said:


> What are you even talking about ? can you actually comprehend the simple thing im saying ?
> Kakashi says children stronger than him
> then in chuunin exams AGAIN saying that he cant believe child as strong as neji exists
> 
> Are you not reading ? literally every time its like you are talking to yourself man





J★J♥ said:


> No he does not he admitted inferiority to genin neji alrady. Adult Neji would rape 10 kakashis





J★J♥ said:


> No connection with each other ? they have all the connection that can be had. You are either in denial or just flat out not smart enough to follow a logic 3 years old can.





J★J♥ said:


> Your debating skills are... lacking. all you do is repeat "absurd because i think so" then twist my words and think you won argument like a monkey throwing shit at everyone and grinning in victory.
> I put 2 separate events together but it seems too complicated to you to comprehend let me walk you through this.
> 1)Kakashi says there are children stronger than him after Zabuza fight
> 2)Kakashi says he cant believe that kid as strong as neji exists during chuunin exams
> add one to another and yes genin neji is stronger than him answer this none of the nonsensical bullshit you been posting whole day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Aug 29, 2018)

There’s so many that pop up everyday it’s funny actually but the ones that stick out are

Masters being High Kage lvl and the other BS with them

Part one Genin being Jounin lvl or beating Jounin lvl and up people


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## Phenomenon (Aug 29, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Once upon a time their was this one slickhead who made the suggestion that Genin Neji could defeat part 1 Kakashi. He then proceeded to throw around nutty ass insults because he's arguments couldn't hold up under scrutiny.
> 
> Here's some of the shit he said.


Man That's some terrible shit right there.

Kakashi negs.


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## Maverick04 (Aug 29, 2018)

1. Itachi reflecting Kamui with Yata mirror

2. Kakashi beating Nagato in a 1v1

3. Sakura having speed comparable to god tiers

4. Jiraiya being able to summon an army of toads all by himself.

5. Tsunade reacting to the 4th Raikage

6. Any argument involving canon Orochimaru (without WA edo Tensei) being able to beat Itachi

7. Hiruzen's fuuton incapacitating Third Raikage.

8. Kisame absorbing chakra from Gaara's sand


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 29, 2018)

A good percentage of the posts in this section are ridiculous these days tbh. As for the most ridiculous;

- Sakura & Tsunade being capable of busting Perfect Susano'o with their CES
- Sakura hitting harder than RSM Nardo
- Food Cart Destroyer having Perfect Susano'o busting power
- Daikodan beating Indra's Arrow
- Jiraiya having better sensing than SM Kabuto
- 7th Gate Gai having god tier speed 
- Itachi being able to use Tsukuyomi with his finger
- Orochimaru sans ET being stronger than Itachi


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 29, 2018)

The most ridiculous that I've never understood is Minato defeating Kage-level characters with just his foot speed. I ask for the evidence and am never given any panels of Minato running down anyone worth their salt with his foot speed and Shunshin. If he was capable of doing that, he wouldn't use Hiraishin as much as he does.


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## Bonly (Aug 29, 2018)

Let me also add in 99.999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of Silnaem post as ridiculous as well as abut 60-70 percent of what Alita post

Reactions: Like 2


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## The Great One (Aug 29, 2018)

BSM Naruto > BM Minato. 

Like wha? How the hell BSM Naruto beats BM Minato when latter has access to FTG teleportation/FTG barrier and can simply tag Naruto with FTG and kill him anytime he wants?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 29, 2018)

From my limited time here the worst arguments have come from, you guessed it, Jiraya fans.

Obviously, to believe a hype - that cannot literally be true based off wording - which is hinted to be a lie several times throughout the manga, you're likely going be stifled with the prerequisites to debate well. Objective thinking, strategic framing and precise logic aren't going to be your strong suit. So that's why we see the type of meme-tier debating we have today. Examples such as :

- Claiming his base iteration can use xyz combination to ensnare his enemy... and that enemy is faster than Konan
- Claiming he can use techs without hand seals; simply because his body was off panel when creating those hand seals
- Claim its unfair when you pit characters against him under neutral settings
- Generally, overestimate his battle tactics and come up with solutions that aren't in his MO to execute
- Give him the benefit of the doubt because he's a Sanin

The bar was set rather low when the Animal Path substituted himself with a log in front of Jiraya's Wild Lion Mane, ie, performing several actions before he could perform one. So it's a joke if you don't think that high level close ranged fighters - especially those with access to strong enhancements - would not simply evade every long range tech thrown their way, close in and kill Jiraya in CQC. No, he doesn't get any brownie points for overcoming Konan and her paper aeroplanes.


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## Mider T (Aug 29, 2018)

Pick any thread in there.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 29, 2018)

Everything is ridiculous in NBD if it is against your fav or pro someone you dislike. Most posters don't wish to deviate from what is explicitly shown in manga including PIS. If a character has a particular skill or strength, and can logically use it in more ways than the manga has shown it, most people get triggered and writhe like fish out of water.
So everything one poster doesn't agree is automatically ridiculous to them and I don't think everyone can unanimously agree ridiculousness in most cases.
That said , there are some where it is agreed
1. Post retcon kisame and shenanigans.
2. Post retcon Sakura and shenanigans
3. Itachi using sharingan gen and tsukuyomi via finger. And he is fast as KCM naruto.
4. Armless edo minato's "feats" before 8G gai.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Aug 29, 2018)

Lady Tsunade regrowing a head


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2018)

Tsunade growing back a head if it's decapitated.

Kisame beating EMS madara lol

Kisame beating pein or nagato..

Madara being immune to gravitational forces because he has Susano'o.


Tsunade dealing with tsukuyomi while in battle despite her having one of the most troubled past. Which should make her an easy target.

Itachi being a smarter shinobi than kakashi when imo they're on the same level. Kakashi is more of a tactician and itachi more analytical in battle.


Tsunade beating a more skilled shinobi in cqc even though she's a down hill fighter and relies on her strength a lot. Speed all of a sudden doesn't matter with her.


Most post these days are sad, most of this comes from specific posters as well so it's not the entire NBD. Just your friendly neighborhood trolls. We have one member whose falling off the deep end because of Jiraiya.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 29, 2018)

Some of the "ridiculous argument" examples aren't even untrue or going against the manga. It's just a case of rusty reading skills accompanied by dog shit comprehension. I say that because some of the examples here contain my posts inspite of me giving appropriate reasoning to back it up. 


_Madara being immune to gravitational forces because he has Susano'o_ - I never said that. I put forth the fact he had a physical shield (_Susano'o) _surrounding him from all sides, which wouldn't allow Nagato to pull him out of it, as that'd attract the Susanoo along with him in the process which is counter-productive for Nagato. Yet a certain poster interpreted that as me claiming he had anti-gravitational powers. Pathetic.
_Kamui being reflected by Yata _- this is backed by the manga. The castor sends a chakra wave onto the the target on his LOS to create a barrier and distorts space (DB definition). I implied he could deflect the chakra wave hence impeding the process of creating a barrier and distorting space. Not illogical nor is unsubstantiated by the manga. Yet some how it's a "ridiculous" claim.
_Tsukuyomi being cast through finger _- not unsubstantiated by the manga. Itachi blatantly says "_it's not just these eyes I can use to cast Genjutsu, if I've just a finger that's more than enough. _The initial part of the statement refers to _ocular genjutsu_ as he mentioned his _eyes_. The second part _doesn't_ speak of _any other form of Genjutsu_ so he's logically referring to the _medium_, through which he could cast the _same_ Genjutsu. The context in which he formulated the statement implies that, rather than implying a totally different Genjutsu. This is further supported by the fact; that the "finger Genjutsu" do not have a jutsu entry in the Third Databook, implying it's simply a _medium_ rather than being a totally different Genjutsu.
None of these are unsupported by the manga. Some of these aren't "facts" yet, simply due to the bad reading comprehension of the majority of posters.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 29, 2018)

Who else is in favour of Sage Light being sacrificed to the mods ?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 29, 2018)

Sage reads and comprehends more than kishimoto writes.


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2018)

So you were the person who was behind some of these statements, SHOCKER


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 29, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Who else is in favour of Sage Light being sacrificed to the mods ?


He has his head cannon.... But its worth a laugh. Imagine NBD without him. It would be bland. Troy and Sage are the heroes no one wants.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Who else is in favour of Sage Light being sacrificed to the mods ?



Sign me up coach


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## Strykervenom (Aug 29, 2018)

These baffled me

.Sakura is stronger than Naruto and Sasuke. They can't fight her on their own or win against her (Because she one punched Shin)

.Sakura can take Kaguya 1 on 1 and defeat her

.Sasuke will not meet the Sage (Oh, that thread was one of the best threads ever when it was revealed to be false)

.Naruto can beat Goku and BSM equals Super Saiyan 3


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## Crow (Aug 29, 2018)

Kisame neg diffing Indra's Arrow


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## SakuraLover16 (Aug 29, 2018)

Gifted said:


> Listing some of the most ridicoulous arguments i've ever seen/heard dosen't make me feel better about myself.
> 
> I don't know what lead you to beleve that.
> 
> But....good for you


Maybe I misunderstood I apologize.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> But for real, that argument makes no sense, Kakashi himself said he would have taken out Kakuzu with it had Naruto not showed up and he was gonna kill MS Obito with Kamui right off the bat, someone even beyond his level, but of course Obito is the only person who can't be affected by it. I believe you are mistaken by both statements and portrayal.





JuicyG said:


> The problem with people using the portrayal argument against Kakashi using Kamui is that his Kamui isn't even his. Its obito's, so the portrayal of Kakashi's kamui snipe needs to be with Obito and not Kakashi in the first place. Because we know that if Obito had that eye instead of Kakashi, people's idea of who he could snipe with it would change dramatically from Kakashi using, despite it being the same Kamui and Kakashi canonically being on par or superior to Obito in area of being tactical


Again this is my mistake my reasoning behind things such as one on one battles is he would lose tons of stamina from one use that's why I believe he would only use it if he has exhausted all other methods first but by then after exhausting all other options he would be severely weakened.


Ishmael said:


> Tsunade dealing with tsukuyomi while in battle despite her having one of the most troubled past. Which should make her an easy target.


Tsunade has made peace with her past that was the whole point of getting rid of her fear of blood.


Ishmael said:


> Tsunade beating a more skilled shinobi in cqc even though she's a down hill fighter and relies on her strength a lot. Speed all of a sudden doesn't matter with her.


It is stated that she is unrivaled in combat, she is also a master at evasion and whatnot. The problem with your statement is that she has contradicted it in the fight against Madara she says there is no higher level of fighting than putting your life on the line she also incapacitated her wood clones (temporarily) while others were struggling with theirs


Strykervenom said:


> .Sakura is stronger than Naruto and Sasuke. They can't fight her on their own or win against her (Because she one punched Shin)
> 
> .Sakura can take Kaguya 1 on 1 and defeat her


........What?


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## Troyse22 (Aug 29, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kisame can fly with his suiton sharks



Who said this?

I remember someone saying Pseudo flight, which is basically bargain bin flight/wannabe flight which he did do off of turtle island




WorldsStrongest said:


> Kisame is stronger than or equal to Itachi because "theyre partners" despite the fact partners in akatsuki NEVER correlate in strength



Multiple instances of their equality or nearly so
Pulls out one, knows there's more, is a neckbeard.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 29, 2018)

OT: Stupid arguments...

Jiraiya: Being>SM Kabuto who is>Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke

Being able to 1v1 Juubito in base
Being able to 1v10 the entire Akatsuki organization
Being peer to Naruto in SM usage despite that being directly refuted in the manga

Sakura and Tsunade: One shotting Kage levels by punching the ground....only a mouth breathing autistic says this stuff though


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

I could list the ones I've seen, but that one post would take up an entire page.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I could list the ones I've seen, but that one post would take up an entire page.



Like saying Madara has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu? 

If you live in a glass house....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Like saying Madara has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu?
> 
> If you live in a glass house....



That's actually supported. Which brings me to start the list:

- Saying Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi; Uchiha fans were all for it until Killer Bee broke Tsukuyomi

- Saying all Uchiha without Hashirama cells don't have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi; ignoring the towering evidence.

Now let's get to some of Troysee's arguments:

- Kisame can fly

- Kisame is on par with Itachi

- Kisame can beat Nagato

- Kisame has reflexes equal to Juubidara

- Kisame can beat Killer Bee

- Kisame can beat Jiraiya

Please say you think Kisame solos the Sannin so I can add it to this list. 

Then you get:

- Tobirama can trash Hashirama

- Minato can beat Hashirama

- Hashirama and Madara are slow

- Itachi can beat Pain-Nagato

- The Rinnegan is weaker than the Sharingan

- Susanoo defies gravity

- Susanoo cannot be absorbed because it isn't made of chakra

- Sasuke did not break Tsukuyomi

- Itachi held back all his MS jutsu; not like he didn't use the MS jutsu he was holding back or anything. 

- This silly sequence:
* Sasuke got Susanoo by having Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu
<Show evidence that Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo>
* I mean Sasuke said if you have the MS in both eyes you get Susanoo

- Sasuke never used time manipulation; ninja can you measure time between manga panels? 

- "Preta takes time to absorb jutsu"; canon says otherwise

- Momentum doesn't affect Minato when he uses FTG; Obito though

- Minato/Kisame can counter Shinra Tensei before it is used; because they have something sensors, Byakugan users, KCM sensing and the Sharingan lack

- Orochimaru wanted Sasuke/Itachi because they were incredibly powerful; Rinnegan though

- Anything disputing Itachi>Oro>Jiraiya

- Itachi = Jiraiya

- Jiraiya>Oro

This list will expand, but Troysee should pay attention to how many entries belong to him.


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## Ayala (Aug 29, 2018)

I tend to forget what i consider ridicolous arguments, but i happened to come across these two between yesterday and today

-Adult Sakura and Tsunade managing to breach Madara's PS

-Itachi and Kisame beating Minato, Hiruzen, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Kakashi and 7G Gai


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Aug 29, 2018)

-Kisame can beat Hashirama.

-Deidara is low Kage level.

-EoS Sakura can beat Itachi.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kisame can fly
> 
> - Kisame is on par with Itachi



Already addressed both in this thread....

Autism is dangerous.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - Kisame has reflexes equal to Juubidara



I've said Kisame reacted to something that surprised Madara
That doesn't equate to Kisame=Mads in reactions



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kisame can beat Killer Bee



Happened on panel ya cunt



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kisame can beat Jiraiya



Jiraiya counters chakra absorption because he is a Sannin obviously.

Jiraiya doesn't get drained faster than Killer Bee cause he's a sannin


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 29, 2018)

Best meme argument I've heard for Nagato



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As far as why Nagato lacked Sharingan powers, that's easy: he didn't know they existed inside him.



His evidence :



> Kakashi couldn't warp into boxland until he knew that ability was part of his MS after confirming Obito's identity.



That Kakashi never thought to warp himself with Kamui. Let that sink in for a minute...For most of the second act, this technique would hospitalise the dude if used on a human-sized target. And of course, he had no idea where the warped objects went.


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 29, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> A thread of people arguing Kimmimaro beats Tsunade and Hiruzen 2v1


Not sure if it's the same one but I remember arguing pro-Kimimaro in that thread .

In defense of Kimimaro though a)
Kimi was stipulated to be in good health (significant difference between normal health / endstage health which the opposing sides never agreed on) 
b) Cursed Mark was empirically proven to enable chuunin sound 4 to fight on par w/ 2 Jonin, so why not enable Kimimaro to grow from Jonin to Kage lvl? 
C) That CS2 Bone Forrest remains to this day a terrific display. Him being able to additionally phase in and out and through it (in the unlikelihood the opponent survives spikes sprouting from the ground en masse, enough to change the surrounding landscape)  for both offensive/defensive purposes at will puts it over the top.

Tl;dr:  Kimimaro > The Sannin / Obito / Nagato / your fav / Galactus etc


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## Azula (Aug 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I could list the ones I've seen, but that one post would take up an entire page.





Troyse22 said:


> Like saying Madara has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu?
> 
> If you live in a glass house....



Nearly 90% of what is being posted here are interpretations of feats and that can vary. Everyone interprets a little differently and thinks how fights will happen differently so it can't be helped.

Saying Madara has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu after all this time though is just flat out wrong. Yours isn't even an interpretation it's just flat out wrong.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Zero890 (Aug 29, 2018)

Nagato:

- Can react to A4+Onoki.

- All his Summons have the Cerberus ability.

- Kid Nagato being stronger than Animal Path.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Already addressed both in this thread....
> 
> Autism is dangerous.



I just had to list a bunch of arguments from our Kisame fan who gets a bit too triggered over Kisame's power as per my sig. 



> I've said Kisame reacted to something that surprised Madara
> That doesn't equate to Kisame=Mads in reactions



We remember the thread, you were basically saying Kisame's reflexes were equal to Juubidara. 



> Happened on panel ya cunt



Tell me you believe Kisame beats Bee when the latter isn't held back. 



> Jiraiya counters chakra absorption because he is a Sannin obviously.
> 
> Jiraiya doesn't get drained faster than Killer Bee cause he's a sannin



This guy really thinks Jiraiya loses to Kisame. 



ziggystardust said:


> Best meme argument I've heard for Nagato
> His evidence :
> 
> That Kakashi never thought to warp himself with Kamui. Let that sink in for a minute...For most of the second act, this technique would hospitalise the dude if used on a human-sized target. And of course, he had no idea where the warped objects went.



That isn't evidence of a bad argument, it is evidence if your inability to apply logic to any argument you enter. If Kakashi knew he could use the same jutsu Obito used to get away from him when they tried to get to Sasuke that would've changed a lot of things. He may have not died against Pain... it wasn't until Obito he knew. Same argument applies to Nagato and the Rinnegan. 

Which brings me to the next batch of ridiculous arguments:

- Rinnegan can't see through solid objects; no evidence

- Rinnegan can't see through smoke; ignores Pain literally seeing Jiraiya attacking while covered in smoke

- Sages are slow so therefore Rinnegan can't see through smoke

Ninja doesn't understand logic, you're no better than Troysee or Sage light.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

Azula said:


> Nearly 90% of what is being posted here are interpretations of feats and that can vary. Everyone interprets a little differently and thinks how fights will happen differently so it can't be helped.
> 
> Saying Madara has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu after all this time though is just flat out wrong. Yours isn't even an interpretation it's just flat out wrong.



I would point out canon statements and databook entries, but this Azula brings me to the next batch of arguments:

- Sage Mode Jiraiya's abilities are equal to Sage Mode Naruto's abilities

- Jiraiya can defeat Pain-Nagato

- Jiraiya can counter Amaterasu

- Jiraiya can maintain Sage Mode with the Ni Dai Sennin


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## Shazam (Aug 29, 2018)

Itachi > Nagato 
Itachi being capable of 1v1 Hashirama 
Itachi with God tier reaction and speed


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## Azula (Aug 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I would point out canon statements and databook entries



Which can and have been retconned, Madara having Tsu and Ama being one of the clearest ones to get retconned.

Everyone figured this out ages ago.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Itachi > Nagato
> Itachi being capable of 1v1 Hashirama
> Itachi with God tier reaction and speed



This reminds me of some previous arguments I recall:

- Itachi beats Rikudou Sennin (people were saying this)
- Itachi can beat Madara
- Itachi can beat Obito
- Itachi can react to Ay
- Itachi can use Kagutsuchi because he extinguished Amaterasu (this was also a thing)
- Mugen Tsukuyomi proves Itachi was the strongest Uchiha with the strongest Genjutsu

The clowns nowadays are unique- but just clown tier as they contest established facts. Back then, before everything was finalised with the manga's end, the worst arguments were from:

- Itachi fans ~ Jiraiya fans... hard to tell which ones were worse to be honest.
- Minato fans, it was bad but not so bad. Though Hussain on his own tied with Itachi and Jiraiya fans collectively. 

Those were the main factions. Everyone else were bandwagoners or niche fans like Sannin, Neji, Oro fans etc. But they were below Minato fans in terms of bad arguments.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

Azula said:


> Which can and have been retconned, Madara having Tsu and Ama being one of the clearest ones to get retconned.
> 
> Everyone figured this out ages ago.



They were never retconned. Posters only started crying retcon the moment Bee countered Tsukuyomi.

Besides, as it has always been "retcon" is such a lazy arguments posters such as yourself use to try and ignore facts which go against your points.

Examples include "recton Kisame" and Jiraiya's "recton Sage Mode". 

That brings me to another bad argument:

Itachi lied when he said Sasuke would never be able to beat him without the MS... sure... which is why he proceeded to hold back his strongest jutsu because Sauske lacked the MS.


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## Mindovin (Aug 29, 2018)

Hashirama punching space-time (with Senpō Mokuton: Shin Sūsenju iirc) and able to bypass Obito's intag.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

Mindovin said:


> Hashirama punching space-time (with Senpō Mokuton: Shin Sūsenju iirc) and able to bypass Obito's intag.



When was this ever said?


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## Mindovin (Aug 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When was this ever said?


Some month ago in a Hashirama vs Obito thread iirc.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

Mindovin said:


> Some month ago in a Hashirama vs Obito thread iirc.



Are you certain it wasn't a joke?


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## Mindovin (Aug 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Are you certain it wasn't a joke?


The only reason I remember because I laughed for minutes. I search later.


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Tsunade has made peace with her past that was the whole point of getting rid of her fear of blood.



So you telling me, that if itachi used genjutsu on her she wouldn't be affected by what he'd torture her with? Lol. 



SakuraLover16 said:


> she says there is no higher level of fighting than putting your life on the line



Yep which is why she got trolled and saved by Dan in that fight and was later shown in two pieces... so much for a higher level of fighting.


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2018)

Oh here's another thing go look at @ARGUS wall of fail and boom there you go.


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## SakuraLover16 (Aug 29, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> So you telling me, that if itachi used genjutsu on her she wouldn't be affected by what he'd torture her with? Lol.


I never said that. I believe the mental damaged would be minimalized in comparison to if she hadn't gone through such trauma. I do believe however that genjutsu that induce pain wouldn't really work considering she has gone through some of the worst pains ever imagined.


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## JJ Baloney (Aug 29, 2018)

None, because I wasn't here yet. :c


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 29, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Can you post any examples of people seriously placing the masters *well above* Gokage and Co. or *easily killing* any of them?
> 
> Or is this butthurt because people argue that they have a good shot of winning against them?
> 
> Big difference.


Masters fanboys argue that Kakashi's Kamui can solo most of the Kage levels in the series because it is so fast that they cannot even react. Whilst in Guy's case Masters fanboys argue that his feat in the Seventh Gate against Juudara makes him faster than Minato and capable of blitzing and one-shotting plenty of Kage levels with his speed plus Hirudora (that they think busted Madara's V3 Susanoo). I don't need to go fetch specific posts for this, anyone who has been on this forum for a while and has read the threads knows what I'm talking about. Not to mention you should definitely know since I'm sure you've made similar posts yourself in the past. So it's not about them having a good shot at winning against them, it's about them being so much stronger that they can one-shot them in the Masters fanboys view.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 29, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Masters fanboys argue that Kakashi's Kamui can solo most of the Kage levels in the series because it is so fast that they cannot even react. Whilst in Guy's case Masters fanboys argue that his feat in the Seventh Gate against Juudara makes him faster than Minato and capable of blitzing and one-shotting plenty of Kage levels with his speed plus Hirudora (that they think busted Madara's V3 Susanoo). I don't need to go fetch specific posts for this, anyone who has been on this forum for a while and has read the threads knows what I'm talking about. Not to mention you should definitely know since I'm sure you've made similar posts yourself in the past. So it's not about them having a good shot at winning against them, it's about them being so much stronger that they can one-shot them in the Masters fanboys view.



Madara no diff kicked Minato away on a blitz attempt

Gai legitimately surprised Mads with his 7th gate speed on 2 occasions, his Shunshin and his Hirudora

By feats Gai is faster.

Inb4 Gai is not a Sannin so you don't his cock in your mouth, thus invalidating his feats

Stupid kids


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2018)

More:

- Itachi's illness affected his chakra capacity
- Itachi dodged Shinra Tensei (somehow he's the only character who can predict it)
- Izanami woks on anyone that isn't in denial about something i.e. it will work on anyone who doesn't accept themselves


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi's illness affected his chakra capacity



This gets used so much especially in "healthy itachi threads" nowhere was chakra cspacity said to be affected. His reflexes, ms usage ability and on the other hand there's an argument for that.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 29, 2018)

It would make a lot of sense that Itachi's illness affected his chakra capacity. When you're ill you run out of breath a lot more quickly - your body is already spending a lot of energy trying to keep itself in check. Also, all of his DB stats are pretty impeccable, except his stamina which is below average. 

When Orochimaru is sick he completely exhausts his chakra reserves from just running a few miles, summoning a snake, coughing up a Kusanagi blade and then regenerating from Rusty Tsunade's punch. His stamina was visibly affected.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 29, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Masters fanboys argue that Kakashi's Kamui can solo most of the Kage levels in the series because it is so fast that they cannot even react. Whilst in Guy's case Masters fanboys argue that his feat in the Seventh Gate against Juudara makes him faster than Minato and capable of blitzing and one-shotting plenty of Kage levels with his speed plus Hirudora (that they think busted Madara's V3 Susanoo).* I don't need to go fetch specific posts for this, anyone who has been on this forum for a while and has read the threads knows what I'm talking about. Not to mention you should definitely know since I'm sure you've made similar posts yourself in the past. So it's not about them having a good shot at winning against them*, it's about them being so much stronger that they can one-shot them in the Masters fanboys view.



You can't find those posts because nobody argues for masters stomping mid or high kage levels easy or neg diff in neutral threads unless it's a troll post for the lulz. 

Minato is faster because FTG is instant but as we the manga showed us, the moment he tries his usual MO on Gai, he will get rekked the same way Madara did to him while he was in SM. Nobody has argued he can move from point A to Point B faster.

Literally none of regular "master supporters" argues for this, the only time I have even seen this come up was a situation where it was stated that Kakashi was bloodlusted and opponent had no knowledge which would mean a blooldusted kamui off the bat.

It's all fabrications of yours.


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## Shazam (Aug 29, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Masters fanboys argue that Kakashi's Kamui can solo most of the Kage levels in the series because it is so fast that they cannot even react. Whilst in Guy's case Masters fanboys argue that his feat in the Seventh Gate against Juudara makes him faster than Minato and capable of blitzing and one-shotting plenty of Kage levels with his speed plus Hirudora (that they think busted Madara's V3 Susanoo). I don't need to go fetch specific posts for this, anyone who has been on this forum for a while and has read the threads knows what I'm talking about. Not to mention you should definitely know since I'm sure you've made similar posts yourself in the past. So it's not about them having a good shot at winning against them, it's about them being so much stronger that they can one-shot them in the Masters fanboys view.



Where do you rate the Masters at peak performance?

Whose the strongest you'd favor them over?


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## Marvel (Aug 29, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Where do you rate the Masters at peak performance?
> 
> Whose the strongest you'd favor them over?


Peak Perfomance Masters Beat Fused Momoshiki


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## Shazam (Aug 29, 2018)

In my opinion the masters separately are in the high kage bracket. I believe Gai can push Itachi high diff and I would have Kakashi over gengetsu in a fight and he stalemates Muu.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 29, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> You can't find those posts because nobody argues for masters stomping mid or high kage levels easy or neg diff in neutral threads unless it's a troll post for the lulz.


 "Kamui GG" which is a popular phrase here in the NBD, is considered a stomp considering it revolves around Kakashi one-shotting his opponent and them not being able to do anything about it. Guy blitzing and one-shotting with Hirudora has also been argued before, how you can think no one argues this is beyond me. 



> Minato is faster because FTG is instant but as we the manga showed us, the moment he tries his usual MO on Gai, he will get rekked the same way Madara did to him while he was in SM. Nobody has argued he can move from point A to Point B faster.


 No he won't, thinking Minato would get wrecked by the likes of Guy (minus the Eighth Gate) is nothing more than pure bias. I shouldn't even have to point out what is wrong with that line of thinking. 



> Literally none of regular "master supporters" argues for this, the only time I have even seen this come up was a situation where it was stated that Kakashi was bloodlusted and opponent had no knowledge which would mean a blooldusted kamui off the bat.
> 
> It's all fabrications of yours.


What on earth are you talking about? In pretty much any War Arc Kakashi vs anyone thread his supporters argue he takes em out with Kamui quickly or that Seventh Gate Guy blitzes and one-shots due to his Juudara pressuring speed. Have you forgotten all of this?



Shazam said:


> Where do you rate the Masters at peak performance?


 As god tiers when using the Eighth Gate and DMS.



> Whose the strongest you'd favor them over?


I'd say they're on the same general level as mid tier Akatsuki members and both are above Kisame.


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## Shazam (Aug 29, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> "Kamui GG" which is a popular phrase here in the NBD, is considered a stomp considering it revolves around Kakashi one-shotting his opponent and them not being able to do anything about it. Guy blitzing and one-shotting with Hirudora has also been argued before, how you can think no one argues this is beyond me.
> 
> No he won't, thinking Minato would get wrecked by the likes of Guy (minus the Eighth Gate) is nothing more than pure bias. I shouldn't even have to point out what is wrong with that line of thinking.
> 
> ...



So there is nobody that is considered high kage that you think they could beat individually? 

I personally think Kakashi beats gengetsu. And he is equal to Muu.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 29, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> "Kamui GG" which is a popular phrase here in the NBD, is considered a stomp considering it revolves around Kakashi one-shotting his opponent and them not being able to do anything about it. Guy blitzing and one-shotting with Hirudora has also been argued before, how you can think no one argues this is beyond me.
> 
> No he won't, thinking Minato would get wrecked by the likes of Guy (minus the Eighth Gate) is nothing more than pure bias. I shouldn't even have to point out what is wrong with that line of thinking.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya is often placed in the same tier as Minato

Base Gai one shot Base Jiraiya

Idk why it's so far fetched for Gai to beat Minato


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## Troyse22 (Aug 29, 2018)

Also, 7th Gate Gai, going by feats is comparable, if not slightly faster than Ays max speed

Ay nearly blitzed Minato and was confident he could get him the moment he swapped to a Kunai

So Gai, who is UNQUESTIONABLY smarter, more analytical and tactical than the Raikage should, at worst, replicate his feat, and due to the things I've mentioned, dispatch Minato relatively simply. 

Gai is absolutely insane in combat, especially when factoring in speed

If you think Gai is slower than the Raikage, and not at least COMPARABLE, then I'd advise you to read the manga


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## JJ Baloney (Aug 29, 2018)

I haven't been here for too long and I already found one:

People are arguing (12 year old?) Mitsuki is kage level.


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## Buuhan (Aug 29, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Sage reads and comprehends more than kishimoto writes.


Plot Twist: HE IS KISHImoto


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## Strykervenom (Aug 29, 2018)

.SasuSaku represents true love despite the fact Sasuke tried to kill her three times and disrespected her throughout the series.



.Sakura can defeat Pain/Nagato because of Byakugou 

.Orochimaru will rekt Itachi in a fight

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 29, 2018)

Recent:

>Itachi breaking Frog Song by casting Genjutsu on himself with a shadow clone

>SM Naruto "tanking" Hirudora because he survived falling on sharp rocks

>Hiruzen mastering all the secret Clan Jutsu (Hiden) in Konoha despite not even having the techniques of his own masters or students which he spent thousands of hours with

([Tsunade, Tsunade's Student, Tsunade's Second Student] *No Mystical Palm*,
[Tsunade, Tsunade's 17 year old student] *No Byakugo*,
[Tobirama, Orochimaru, Orochimaru's 26 year old Student] *No Edo Tensei*,
[Tobirama, Jiraiya's student 18 year old student] *No FTG*,
[Hashirama, Jiraiya, Jiraiya's 20 year old student, Jiraiya's 16 year old student] *No Sage Mode*,
[Jiraiya, Jiraiya's 20 year old Student [Minato], Jiraiya's 13 year old student [Naruto], Jiraiya's student's 12 year old Student [Kakashi], Jiraiya's student's sons student [Konohamaru], Jiraiya's students students students 13 year old student [Baruto]] *No Rasengan*,
[Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru's 15 year old Student, Jiraiya's Student, Jiraiya's 13 year old Student, Tsunade's 17 year old Student] *No Snake/Toad/Slug Summonings*)
[Tsunade, Tsunade's 15 year old Student, Tsunade's Students 13 year student [Sarada]] *No Chakra Enhanced Strength (CES)*
[Hashirama, Orochimaru, Orochimaru's 15 year old Student] *No Rashoman Gates*

>SM Kabuto being portrayed superior to EMS Sasuke

>Hirudora being countered by Pain-arc SM Naruto via a smoke bomb


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## JJ Baloney (Aug 29, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Maybe Alive Madara Uchiha, before he got the Kyuubi. 10%+ Katsuyu and Sakura’s insane striking power might be a match for Perfect Susano’o.
> 
> Six Paths of Pein are also worth mentioning. I’m unsure if they could defeat Nagato outright, but it’s not impossible.



This post almost drove me to tears of laughter. It's an answer to which adult character can Sakura and Tsunade beat together.


I have been here for 6 hours and already this place is oodles of fun!


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## Mithos (Aug 29, 2018)

The argument that a user's interpretation of "feats" is more reliable and important than in-verse statements and portrayal. Basically: fanfic is more important than canon material supplied by the author.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 29, 2018)

Matto said:


> The argument that a user's interpretation of "feats" is more reliable and important than in-verse statements and portrayal. Basically: fanfic is more important than canon material supplied by the author.


It's not necessarily their fault that you take character thoughts and statements as more relevant than actually watching a character perform in life and death combat with a front row seat.

To imply the authors intentions, ergo "canon" aren't also drawn into his chosen combat features is ridiculous. The author is first and foremost an artist, this is a *comic book* full of action, not a biblical piece of literature.

Portrayal has it's place in a debate regarding this comic book, but it's certainly not overriding how the artist chose to display his characters in actual combat. If he wanted them weaker or stronger he would've drawn them performing at the appropriate level.

Portrayal-heavy debaters are weak, talent deficient robots who read a couple sentences in the comic book and base their entire argument on it.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mithos (Aug 29, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Portrayal-heavy debaters are weak, talent deficient robots who read a couple sentences in the comic book and base their entire argument on it



Of course how a character performs factors into portrayal.

I object, however, when there are _very _clear statements from the author meant to establish a character's place within the story, and then the Battledome overrides those because of some explosions they saw on panel. Or confuse what they see on panel as retcons that never happened.

I'm not going to re-open the debate, but as an example of what _I _object to: the SM Naruto vs Gai thread. I, and other portrayal-minded debaters, cited numerous character statements, and the general portrayal that Naruto was the village's only hope against Pain, but those were ignored by many in favor of _Afternoon Tiger's_ explosion against Kisame.

The manga is a work of fiction, and just as with other printed media such as books, information provided by the author and the in-verse characters is critical for reading comprehension.

Reactions: Like 2


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 29, 2018)

Matto said:


> Of course how a character performs factors into portrayal.
> 
> I object, however, when there are _very _clear statements from the author meant to establish a character's place within the story, and then the Battledome overrides those because of some explosions they saw on panel. Or confuse what they see on panel as retcons that never happened.
> 
> ...


For the record I never implied Guy was stronger, but the implication that he couldn't have helped him is simply ridiculous.

Guy aided a superior version of Naruto (*War-arc* *KCM/BM*) against a superior version of Pain (*6 Perfect Edo Jinchuriki with Sharingan*) on a battlefield where Konoha wasn't even under attack - fairly well I might add (saved his life twice).

Portrayal matters, but the author writing *Kakashi & Guy* fighting in that battle proved the few coupled statements from characters during the Pain-arc were made irrelevant *by the authors intentions. *


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## Mithos (Aug 29, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> For the record I never implied Guy was stronger, but the implication that he couldn't have helped him is simply ridiculous



It's not ridiculous if Naruto ends up having to save Gai from _Universal Pull_ or prevent him from getting killed by an _Almighty Push _(both of which Gai has absolutely no way to deal with). 

There are ways for Gai to have helped, but also ways for him to have easily been a liability. And I think if Kishi were to have written a fight with someone attempting to assist Naruto, he would have had Naruto needing to save/protect them.

But that's all I'll say, because we're getting a bit too specific for this thread.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 29, 2018)

Matto said:


> It's not ridiculous if Naruto ends up having to save Gai from _Universal Pull_ or prevent him from getting killed by an _Almighty Push_.
> 
> There are ways for Gai to have helped, but also ways for him to have easily been a liability. And I think if Kishi were to have written a fight with someone attempting to assist Naruto, he would have had Naruto needing to save/protect them.
> 
> But that's all I'll say, because we're getting a bit too specific for this thread.


You ignored the remainder of my post which proved your portrayal wrong.


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## Mithos (Aug 30, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> You ignored the remainder of my post which proved your portrayal wrong.



I also don't recall the Edo Jinchuriki using _Almighty Push_ or _Universal Pull, _either.

EDIT: It was highlighted that Obito couldn't afford the chakra it would require for the Jinchuriki to use Pain's techniques because of how much it was taking to control 7 of them with his eyes, and Gai remarked that it would be a waste of chakra because they know how to deal with them now. 

Neither Gai nor Kakashi could counter a super-powered, boss summon-flinging _Almighty Push, _however, and Gai certainly would be a liability in the face of that. 

Facing off against the Jin who weren't using Pain's most powerful techniques (that hard counter Gai no less) doesn't mean Gai could take on Pain alongside SM Naruto.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 30, 2018)

Matto said:


> It was a very different scenario, and Kakashi even makes a _statement _that they were now in a better position (from knowledge) to approach the Rinnegan's abilities. If anything, Kakashi's statement backs up that Gai would likely have been a liability during Pain's invasion.
> 
> I also don't recall the Edo Jinchuriki using _Almighty Push_ or _Universal Pull, _either.


The Rinnegan Abilities were not used.

Bijuudama is superior to everyone of Pain's powers, including Chibaku Tensei. Superior Pain used 5 of them against Guy & Kakashi.

Guy fights against *5 Bijuu Mode Sharingan/Rinnegan Immortal Jinchuriki Pain Paths, Gedo Mazo & Rinnegan Obito* alongside KCM Naruto, Kakashi & Killer Bee, but he'd be in the way of *SM Naruto against Pain*?

Guy fights alongside Minato, Kakashi & Gaara against *Juubi Jinchuriki Rinnegan Madara*, but he'd be in the way of *SM Naruto against Pain*?


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## Azula (Aug 30, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Guy fights against *5 Bijuu Mode Sharingan/Rinnegan Immortal Jinchuriki, Gedo Mazo & Rinnegan Obito*



You mean the Gai that went inside BM Naruto when Obito actually unleashed the power of the Bijuus.

The best he did was kick some V2 jins and beat down one 6 tails move.

He would get hit by one Shinra Tensei and get out of the fight after breaking his bones.



DaVizWiz said:


> Guy fights alongside Minato, Kakashi & Gaara against *Juubi Jinchuriki Rinnegan Madara*, but he'd be in the way of *SM Naruto against Pain*?



7th Gate Gai did what again?

He even lasted that long because Madara was curious about his taijutsu skills and only blocked his Hirudora late.

Gai barely even made an impact when Madara was an Edo and way less powerful. Even at full power of 7th gate he could only buy some time for Naruto.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mithos (Aug 30, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> The Rinnegan Abilities were not used.
> 
> Bijuudama is superior to everyone of Pain's powers, including Chibaku Tensei. Pain used 5 of them against Guy & Kakashi.
> 
> ...



I went back and looked at the chapters, but I didn't manage to get my edit in time for your post.

Yes, Gai would be in the way because he's absolutely countered by Pain's _Almighty Push_ and _Universal Pull_. Especially back during the invasion when he wouldn't have known what he was up against. 

The situations just aren't that comparable, especially since in the War Arc he was backed up by Naruto (a much stronger version), Kakashi and Killer Bee.

And Gai didn't accomplish anything against Juubidara until he activated the 8th Gate, which was not taken into account against Pain. If Madara had wanted, he could have easily slaughtered 7th-Gate Gai at any time. Madara choosing not to doesn't mean Gai could have successfully helped Naruto against Pain (who wouldn't hesistate to kill/cripple Gai).

I'm not seeing how these very different situations prove the statements from the Pain Arc wrong. 

But either way, I'm done for now. I think we're detracting from the focus of this thread at this point.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 30, 2018)

Matto said:


> I went back and looked at the chapters, but I didn't manage to get my edit in time for your post.
> 
> Yes, Gai would be in the way because he's absolutely countered by Pain's _Almighty Push_ and _Universal Pull_. Especially back during the invasion when he wouldn't have known what he was up against.
> 
> ...


Almighty Push & Universal Pull are not more dangerous or more powerful than Bijuudama, a technique the author allocated for opponents against Guy in that battle.

You're right, they're not comparable. Rinnegan Obito, Gedo Mazo & 5 Immortal Bijuu Mode Paths of Pain is a far more dangerous and difficult situation than Nagato's Tendo Path (the only remaining path on the field during Guy's arrival).

Guy nearly killed Juubidara, and delayed him long enough to prevent IT from happening before Naruto & Sasuke arrived to the battlefield with Rikudo powers. Prior to that they would've been one-shotted by IT while talking to Hagoromo, and Kakashi & Obito who both aided in the defeat of Kaguya, and prevented the obliteration of the entire planet, would've also been one-shotted by IT if not for Guy delaying the technique.

Basically his 8th Gate saved the world.

The implication that Nagato's weakened Tendo Path post-CST is more dangerous or more difficult to fight than Rinnegan Obito's full powered 6 bodied Pain, or Juubi Jinchuriki Madara is an unacceptable claim and a worthy nomination for this thread. 

The author put Guy in those battles, whatever statements he wrote into the manga previously were irrelevant when he was showcased as a main fighter in those considerably more advanced conflicts.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 30, 2018)

Matto said:


> I went back and looked at the chapters, but I didn't manage to get my edit in time for your post.
> 
> Yes, Gai would be in the way because he's absolutely countered by Pain's _Almighty Push_ and _Universal Pull_. Especially back during the invasion when he wouldn't have known what he was up against.
> 
> ...


Has anyone ever accomplished anything against juudara ??? Even Naru-sasu couldn't until Santa gave them presents. That's poor logic. 
You need to see how well he did than the others.
Again with the Madara could've slaughtered gai. He did try to slaughter gai. Lee had to save Gai. Did you all forget that ?? Madara had zero intentions to let anyone live, and the first opportunity he got to kill gai, he tried. He sent the TSB at him to kill him. He'd have died of Lee wasn't there at the right time.
So enough with "he could have killed but didn't". He triestried the first opportunity he got. Gai had to be saved. Madara chose not to engage the only dude who could possibly hurt him and then tried to kill him the first clear chance he got. 
So enoigh with this "he went easy on him" shit. He tried to kill him ffs.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Aug 30, 2018)

The worst part about the Gai not being a help argument, even with the belief that universal pull or almighty push can end him, is Deva was restricted. Universal Pull and Almighty Push were nonfactors at the time. SM Naruto and 7G Gai sweep through the 5 paths with ease and then babyshake restricted Deva before his restriction ends. SM Naruto and the toads nearly did it by themselves. Adding 7G Gai in easily turns it in to a win for them. 

I dunno why the "Gai wouldn't help vs the 6 paths of pain where deva is pretty much useless" is a statement anyone would ever want to try to defend.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 30, 2018)

~Kakashi~ said:


> The worst part about the Gai not being a help argument, even with the belief that universal pull or almighty push can end him, is Deva was restricted. Universal Pull and Almighty Push were nonfactors at the time. SM Naruto and 7G Gai sweep through the 5 paths with ease and then babyshake restricted Deva before his restriction ends. SM Naruto and the toads nearly did it by themselves. Adding 7G Gai in easily turns it in to a win for them.
> 
> I dunno why the "Gai wouldn't help vs the 6 paths of pain where deva is pretty much useless" is a statement anyone would ever want to try to defend.


Because it is heavily and purposefully misinterpreted. What Katsuyu meant was that Naruto wanted to do it alone. Katsuyu would have stopped anyone from interfering because Naruto wanted to do it on his own. He needed to known the answers. Even if it was hashirama himslef. Naruto believed the is bringing peace thing is something he has to do on his own because the chosen one and stuff. So he took the burden on to himself.  Of course katsuyu doesn't know that so she said it in a blunt way, because katsuyu obviously doesn't know what Gai in gates is capable of.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Buuhan (Aug 30, 2018)

WA MS Kakashi being weaker that Hebi Sasuke. Not sure how someone could possibly come to this conclusion.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 30, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Gai *legitimately surprised Mads with his 7th gate speed on 2 occasions, his Shunshin and his Hirudora*



Yoh everybody lets play find the link

Kisame lost to Guy, therefore wanking Guy makes Kisame look strongerKappa

No way in gods good name did Guy pressure or even impress Madara with his shunsin or Hirudora in anyway. Madara not only reacted to every single one of his strikes and his hirudora from point blank range, he also later reacts to the 1000× faster 8 gated guy moments later. 

Next you're comparing Guy getting of hirudora while EMS Madara is focused on Naruto, as if that has merit to Minato fighting Juudara


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 30, 2018)

I mean there is enough salt in this thread about Gai's feats vs Madara JJ but calm the fuck down with the downplay.

JJ Madara is infinitely better than every single character alive or dead till that point and Gai managed to survive a cqc exchange with him. That is better than any fucking one. Gai did with his foot speed what Minato couldn't do Teleporting. Madara evaded every attack
Of gai's except AT. He blocked it. That alone means a lot unless you are waddling in salt. He lol fucked minato few seconds ago, who can literally appear in front of anyone .
He also later reacted to all of gai's 8 gate attacks, but he also took every single one of them successfully. He also calls gai as extremely fast and hard hitting. A god's compliment has more weight than a salt boy's attempted internet comedy.... Not even one could he dodge or evade . And Madara regretted taking some of those and warned himself not to get directly hit. so calm those downplaying tits....
What gai demonstrated vs a god is still a lot better than most people's feats. The fact that he tried to kill gai the first chance he got meant he wasn't lolly gagging like the saltbois say.. Its only the salt that gets in the way to accept this.

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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 30, 2018)

Another legendary logic I had the misfortune of coming across recently:
Hebi sasuke beats WA Gaara because Diedera beat BOS gaara and Hebi Sasuke beat Diedera.... So Hebi Sasuke > WA Gaara.....


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## Serene Grace (Aug 30, 2018)

Theres no salt just stating facts

How can guy suprise Madara with his speed, when Madara later goes on to react to a guy that is 500 times faster 

Not to mention Madara literally evaded and countered every single one of his strikes


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 30, 2018)

There is more than ebough salt for a whole banquet kitchen here. Downplaying a ninja's feats vs A literal god is down playing at it's finest.
The logic here is so poor ...
Madara didn't expect 7G gai to be as fast as he was. So he was surprised.
Madara knew how fast 7g gai was now so he was prepared to anything better considering he already knows 8g > 7g. Not so hard to deduce if some effort is put.
And even then Gai was literally running circles around J Mass during Seikizo. Madara only reacted to the last punch by putting up the shield. He was literally looking for gai the other way when gai fired step 2, meaning he still didn't expect gain to be so fast. By gai's step 6 he got a rough hang of it and instead of physically blocking gai he put up a shield because he still didn't work it out completely.


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## Lurko (Aug 30, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> > BM Minato being 10x faster than BSM Naruto
> 
> > BSM Naruto = EMS Sasuke
> 
> ...


Holy shit what happend to this section.....


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 30, 2018)

Azula said:


> You mean the Gai that went inside BM Naruto when Obito actually unleashed the power of the Bijuus.
> 
> The best he did was kick some V2 jins and beat down one 6 tails move.
> 
> ...


Yup, the Guy that saved *KCM Naruto (for the record KCM >>>>>>>>>>> Pain-arc SM Naruto)* *twice* from Rinnegan Obito *(for the record R Obito >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pain)*

He fought Juubi Jinchuriki Rinnegan Madara as the alpha with a Kazekage & 2 Hokage on the battlefield.

Guy one-shotted Edo Madara with Hirudora when he was at his limit, and  later that night after shutting him up with a 100m speed burst as Madara was acting overconfident.

Are we talking about the same guy... or...?

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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Guy one-shotted Edo Madara with Hirudora



Show me the panel of Madara regenerating, please.


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## Lurko (Aug 30, 2018)




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## DaVizWiz (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Show me the panel of Madara regenerating, please.


Here's Madara when he's hit with Hirudora at the end of this chapter.

Here's the Mokuton weakening as his body is being destroyed in the beginning of the next chapter. 

Here's Madara at the end of that next chapter still in a dust cloud having regenerated any injures.

Meanwhile Obito, the only man who could return him to life, was being attacked 2 on 1 by Kakashi and BM Naruto in both dimensions and could've been killed if Kakashi chose to bisect his body or headshot with Raikiri, and the Gedo Mazo, the body of the Juubi he needs to activate Infinite Tsukuyomi, is being attacked by a SuperSuperbijuudama by BM Naruto & BM Killer Bee.

Tell me that Madara was chilling on the sidelines willingly for an entire chapter, and then give me reasoning on why he would do such a thing with the two most important pieces in the world to him being gang banged by the Justice League, and then I can happily ignore you for the remainder of the debate as I realize you're not worth my time.


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## Azula (Aug 30, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> He fought Juubi Jinchuriki Rinnegan Madara as the alpha with a Kazekage & 2 Hokage on the battlefield.



Only physical attacks work on Madara and at one point Tsunade was the alpha and at the front of the fight.

But everyone is like _oh Madara wasn't serious. He could have easily oneshot the Kages but is just fucking around.
_
*That's true but why forget this in case of Gai?*

Madara easily blocked Hirudora which is Gai's fastest punch but somehow Gai bouncing around earlier was a threat to him because he chose to dodge instead of oneshotting Gai. Lmfao okay buddy.



DaVizWiz said:


> Guy one-shotted Edo Madara with Hirudora when he was at his limit,



Pushing Madara away and buying some time is literally the most underwhelming feat against what other Kages have done.

They were punching around higher level Susanoos.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Here's Madara when he's hit with Hirudora at the end of this chapter.



Dope.



> Here's the Mokuton weakening as his body is being destroyed in the beginning of the next chapter.



Such a scene doesn't have to be necessitated by the casters death. Wavered concentration is all that's needed for the weakening of any active jutsu. Countless examples littered throughout the manga allude to this.



> Here's Madara at the end of that next chapter still in a dust cloud having regenerated any injures.



I have yet to see proof of this.



> Meanwhile Obito, the only man who could return him to life, was being attacked 2 on 1 by Kakashi and BM Naruto in both dimensions and could've been killed if Kakashi chose to bisect his body or headshot with Raikiri, and the Gedo Mazo, the body of the Juubi he needs to activate Infinite Tsukuyomi, is being attacked by a SuperSuperbijuudama by BM Naruto & BM Killer Bee.
> 
> Tell me that Madara was chilling on the sidelines willingly for an entire chapter, and then give me reasoning on why he would do such a thing with the two most important pieces in the world to him being gang banged by the Justice League, and then I can happily ignore you for the remainder of the debate as I realize you're not worth my time.



That's just the thing, even if he did regenerate himself from complete destruction, which shouldn't take that long (see Muu and Madara vs Meteor strike) he must have been chilling either way. So yes, while it doesn't make sense that he'd act in such a manner, he did, because a single explosion that forces his regeneration won't stop him from re-joining the battlefield. There needs to be continuous explosions for that to happen. And there wasn't. What's also absent is any proof of Madara having regenerated in the first instance. Can you provide it?


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## Ishmael (Aug 30, 2018)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Holy shit what happend to this section.....



We got a few posters who helped kishi write the manga and now they can't help but argue parts of their Manga that didn't make the cuts... nothing much.

Also to add to this thread some suggest Sakura and tsunade can beat madara.


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## Jad (Aug 30, 2018)

Why do people keep saying Madara intercepted Gai's fastest punch as a way to show he could have easily interruped Gai anytime during his 7th Gate assault? If you understood the mechanics of Hirudora, you know Gai had already launched his fastest punch and Madara destroyed what RESULTED AFTER the fastest punch occurred - Hirudora. Had Madara intercepted Gai's fastest punch, guess what, Gai would be missing a limb.

Madara could do NOTHING in CQC against 7th Gai's barrage because it clearly showed he couldn't weave a handsign or counter with his own Taijutsu. I say this because Madara has systematically and very consistently dealt with multiple ninjas in Taijutsu without recourse before Gai. He literally did it to Minato using Hirashin a minute before Gai showed up, and it took him less then a step to do so. There was none of the following:

1. Madara wanting to test Gai's Taijutsu. For what? Where was it implied. He was more annoyed that Gai didn't go full Gates, that's more reason to destroy Gai quickly for underestimating him.
2. Madara joking around with Gai. That's false, he dismantled 3 Kage level ninja's a minute before Gai appeared.
3. Madara intercepted Gai's fastest punch thus he could intercept Gai in 7th Gate anytime. That's false, Madara had room to move when the assault stopped and the cushion of air from Hirudora releasing had distanced him away/ This is literally what is shown in the manga verbatim.
4. Madara was blinded by the dust. No, the dust cloud that occurred after 7th Gate activation was like a hundred meters away from him.

Then you have people saying how Madara was going toe to toe with 8 Gates Gai. You must be reading the wrong chapter, because Madara couldn't react/counter AT ALL against 8 Gates Gai. He was left at Gai's mercy.

As for Gai using Hirudora against Madara and not amounting to anything. Let me explain, Madara had always wanted to get the Kyuubi from the moment he came onto the battlefield to before the Juubi arrived. He quite clearly showed his praise for the GROUP against him that they were able to stop him for so long. Might I add, when Madara said he was GETTING SERIOUS he had Naruto, Hachibi and even Gai on the ropes. But the ONLY attack that landed on him and kept him out an entire chapter AFTER getting serious was Hirudora. So don't tell me Gai didn't help or he didn't accomplish anything.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Still looking for evidence of Gai's Hirodara even putting a scratch on Madara, because @DaVizWiz's ideas don't confirm that he did.


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## Jad (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Still looking for evidence of Gai's Hirodara even putting a scratch on Madara, because @DaVizWiz's ideas don't confirm that he did.


Reminds me of the time when Onoki with Raikge and Tsunade hit Madara's sasuno in mid-air with bones fragments, and sent it crashing into the ground. Only for him to emerge from the rubble with no Sasuno. Some said he deactivated it then as well.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Jad said:


> Reminds me of the time when Onoki with Raikge and Tsunade hit Madara's sasuno in mid-air with bones fragments, and sent it crashing into the ground. Only for him to emerge from the rubble with no Sasuno. Some said he deactivated it then as well.



Jad, with all of your comprehensive knowledge,  show me where I said that Madara de-activated Susanoo, please?


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## Troyse22 (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Still looking for evidence of Gai's Hirodara even putting a scratch on Madara, because @DaVizWiz's ideas don't confirm that he did.



Yeah he does that kind of stuff a lot


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## Jad (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Jad, with all of your comprehensive knowledge,  show me where I said that Madara de-activated Susanoo, please?


Tell me where I denied you said that?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Well let's see, you quoted my post then replied:



Jad said:


> Some said he deactivated it then as well.



This implies that someone else said he deactivated Susanoo, and that said person would be me. I want you to point out where I said it?
*
*


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## Jad (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Well let's see, you quoted my post then replied:
> 
> 
> 
> This implies that someone else said he deactivated Susanoo, and that said person would be me. I want you to point out where I said it?


You're grasping at straws. I never wrote that you said Madara deactivated his Sasuno. I was just giving an example of people talking about off panel situations. Why are you asking me to find where you said 'Madara deactivated Sasuno' ? You never did. Now what? What is the purpose of our posts? We just wasted our time discussing nothing...


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Jad said:


> You're grasping at straws. I never wrote that you said Madara deactivated his Sasuno. I was just giving an example of people talking about off panel situations. Why are you asking me to find where you said 'Madara deactivated Sasuno' ? You never did. Now what? What is the purpose of our posts? We just wasted our time discussing nothing...



So in other words, there was no point in even mentioning the debacle to whether or not Madara deactivated Susanoo, given that it's not relevant to the current discussion matter? good to know (_although i think you relised your mistake which explains the back pedal) 
_
I asked a question did gai's Hirodora cause Madara to regenerate, if so, where's the proof ?


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 30, 2018)

Matto said:


> he argument that a user's interpretation of "feats" is more reliable and important than in-verse statements and portrayal.


Feats > Statements in every avenue of debating kiddo

And i mean EVERYWHERE

Dont like it?

Maybe Vs debating aint your thing 


Matto said:


> Basically: fanfic


>Direct on panel occurrences 
>Somehow "fanfic"

Top kek


Matto said:


> more important than canon material supplied by the author.


Hate to break it to you bud, but the author also draws the feats when they occur 

They are from the exact same source and medium as the words you so extol

Its inane for you to suggest that a statement is more credible than a feat because "they are the authors words" meanwhile by that exact same logic feats are "the authors acts" so you still dont have a leg to stand on.

No matter how you look at it, taking a statement over a feat is plain dumb, and arguing statements are in general more reliable than feats is even worse.

And no, before someone gets cheeky and quotes me out of context, this isnt me saying statements arent credible at all and that they shouldnt be used, this is me saying that a feat is more credible than a statement. If you cant tell the difference, dont quote me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 30, 2018)

Someone stop @DaVizWiz 

Hes straight up burying yall in here


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Discerning authorial intent is the worst approach to reading literature. Plenty of famous literary criticism supports this notion. Character statements are made with regards to their own fictional existence and are therefore failable within a scope of their understanding. For this reason Matto doesn't offer anything insightful when it comes to arguments.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Aug 30, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Someone stop @DaVizWiz
> 
> Hes straight up burying yall in here



Lmao soloing


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Discerning authorial intent is the wort approach to reading literature. Plenty of famous literary criticism supports this notion. Character statements are made by characters with regards to their own fictional existence and are therefore failable within a their scope of understanding. For this reason Matto doesn't offer anything insightful when it comes to arguments.


People here dont understand the concept of source credibility

They regularly treat character statements as gospel when said character hasnt even fuckinmg met the character hes talking about.

Examples...

People think Hiruzen can beat any Kage in a fight because IRUKA, who has never met ANY other Kage and ALSO hasnt even met the Young Hiruzen he is referencing, says so.

C states that the Raikages reactions are on par with Minatos...Minato died when C was like 7...He has no idea what hes talking about here. And his statement is also contradicted by teh Raikages own words later on, not to mention Minatos feats.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 30, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> VoTE 1 Naruto and Sasuke beat Tsunade



I refuse to believe anyone would ever unironically state this claim. Especially after we witnessed Tsunade humiliating Naruto with merely a finger.

No...just no. I can't believe this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Aug 30, 2018)

Suiton: Daikōdan no Jutsu would defeat Madara's Perfect Susanoo.


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## Azula (Aug 30, 2018)

It's amazing that Gai completely failing is somehow a credit to him, when at no point did Madara ever says or thinks that Gai's taijutsu is somehow too much for him. Just casually dodging and blocking his strongest move. 

And yet every other character who has fought Madara before is dis-credited even though Madara praise them, because "*Madara wasn't serious*" <--- Word for word argument here.

It makes me wonder why Madara even survived this long if 7th Gate alone is _so strong Juubi Jin Madara could do nothing_. They should have been able to send him away long before this.

Maybe Kishi took too long to retcon 7th Gate Gai, faster than V2 Raikage, stronger than Tsunade, more powerful than Naruto and JIraiya, if only Gai was retconned earlier, Edo Madara who is dozens of tiers weaker than JJ Madara would have been defeated because HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO ANYTHING!!!!!!!


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 30, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I refuse to believe anyone would ever unironically state this claim


Sad to say Ava chan...But this is a regular occurrence here


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 30, 2018)

Azula said:


> It's amazing that Gai completely failing is somehow a credit to him, when at no point did Madara ever says or thinks that Gai's taijutsu is somehow too much for him. Just casually dodging and blocking his strongest move.
> 
> And yet every other character who has fought Madara before is dis-credited even though Madara praise them, because "*Madara wasn't serious*" <--- Word for word argument here.
> 
> ...


I now get it why people never understand ( don't want to) why Gai doing whatever he did vs JJ Madara is an actual good showing. It's because the whole fight and the argument in favor of Gai is misinterpreted just for the sake of it.
Someone can make an explanation but they can't make someone understand if they don't want to.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> This gets used so much especially in "healthy itachi threads" nowhere was chakra cspacity said to be affected. His reflexes, ms usage ability and on the other hand there's an argument for that.





Godaime Tsunade said:


> It would make a lot of sense that Itachi's illness affected his chakra capacity. When you're ill you run out of breath a lot more quickly - your body is already spending a lot of energy trying to keep itself in check. Also, all of his DB stats are pretty impeccable, except his stamina which is below average.
> 
> When Orochimaru is sick he completely exhausts his chakra reserves from just running a few miles, summoning a snake, coughing up a Kusanagi blade and then regenerating from Rusty Tsunade's punch. His stamina was visibly affected.



Its just Itachi fans being sore about Itachi's canonical low chakra capacity. Everything that was affected was noted, chakra capacity wasn't one of those things. Unless they have details on Itachi's illness, then claims beyond what Zetsu said are worthless headcanon. In fact, if you want to go down the novel avenue, it suggests Itachi's illness had to do with his eyes; one of the novels had Sasuke investigating Itachi's illness and it turned out Itachi was receiving eye medicine...

Godaime, Oro's case was linked to his host reaching its expiry date, that is all. Even the Tsunade case you could argue, which is also made worse when you realise Oro was messed up by the death god itself. 



Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiya is often placed in the same tier as Minato
> 
> Base Gai one shot Base Jiraiya
> 
> Idk why it's so far fetched for Gai to beat Minato



Who "often" places Jiraiya on the same tier as Minato? 

Another ridiculous argument: base Gai one shot base Jiraiya. 

Make a Gai vs Minato thread and argue your case. 



ziggystardust said:


> Discerning authorial intent is the wort approach to reading literature. Plenty of famous literary criticism supports this notion. Character statements are made with regards to their own fictional existence and are therefore failable within a scope of their understanding. For this reason Matto doesn't offer anything insightful when it comes to arguments.



Practicing what you preach would help you a lot.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy is trying to come to grips with the fact that a crippling terminal illness will affect one's physical stamina. He's struggling quite immensely.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Munboy is trying to come to grips with the fact that a crippling terminal illness will affect one's physical stamina. He's struggling quite immensely.



Its quite simple: Itachi's chakra capacity was not affected. If you were as good with discerning the author's intent as you claim to be, you'd notice that he consistently states it when a character's chakra capacity has been affected by certain factors or conduct in battle. Examples being Hiruzen, Naruto and even Kakashi on a number of occasions. 

But, of course, our man ziggystardust wants to engage in the old damage control, which has no contextual basis, that Itachi fans try to use back when the third databook was released. 

If you're not a bias poster, please tell us what you discovered about Itachi's illness that the rest of us haven't. We'll require the exact details of it. Of course, there's no shame in saying you're trying to provide damage control for your fandom. 

I wonder if ziggy's bias will ignore the novel which touched on the illness?


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its just Itachi fans being sore about Itachi's canonical low chakra capacity. Everything that was affected was noted, chakra capacity wasn't one of those things. Unless they have details on Itachi's illness, then claims beyond what Zetsu said are worthless headcanon. In fact, if you want to go down the novel avenue, it suggests Itachi's illness had to do with his eyes; one of the novels had Sasuke investigating Itachi's illness and it turned out Itachi was receiving eye medicine...
> 
> Godaime, Oro's case was linked to his host reaching its expiry date, that is all. Even the Tsunade case you could argue, which is also made worse when you realise Oro was messed up by the death god itself.
> 
> ...


Sasuke having Tsukiyomi isn't stated but some how that is not "worthless headcanon".


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Sasuke having Tsukiyomi isn't stated but some how that is not "worthless headcanon".



Well we actually saw it, and Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo. You can do the guess work there-- no, you you can't.

You think Itachi can warp into the afterlife and kill Rinnegan Obito. <- Another ridiculous argument.

You really are a unique kind of special. I've never seen an Itachi fan like you... and I've seen some very outrageous ones.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its quite simple: Itachi's chakra capacity was not affected.



Cute opinion.



> If you were as good with discerning the author's intent as you claim to be



I specifically stated - in the post you quoted - that attempting to discern the authors intent is the "_worst way to approach literature_" although I did miss out a letter in the word "worst" so I'll give your special mind the lag time it needs to process things any normal human would understand upon reading once.

And yes, Itachi's physical stamina was undoubtedly affected by the illness. This is simply a rational idea that doesn't need to literally be stated.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Even if he has eye contact negated, that's still not gonna help him. He has to look at his surroundings during the lengths of the battle and all Itachi has to do is intercept into his line of sight and apply Genjutsu.
> 
> His garbage sensing isn't helping him a bit when that shitty sensing can't sense in combat.
> 
> ...



Minato is a shit sensor. 

Sensing from Itachi counters Hiraishin. 

Itachi is a sensor. 

You will give this forum the illness Itachi had.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Cute opinion.
> 
> I specifically stated - in the post you quoted - that attempting to discern the authors intent is the "_worst way to approach literature_" although I did miss out a letter in the word "worst" so I'll give your special mind some the lag time it needs to process things any normal human would understand.
> 
> And yes, Itachi's physical stamina was undoubtedly affected by the illness. This is simply rational that doesn't need to literally be stated.



Nah, the author's intent isn't tough to discern. Everything is literally in black and white.

I'll be blunt and tell you what it looks like: you just can't cope with the fact that Itachi wasn't as strong as you wanted- just like every other Itachi fan couldn't cope with it.

Itachi had shit stamina, accept it. Every other Itachi fan did and moved to the "chakra control" argument. That damage control has more credibility than the nonsense you're trying to superimpose.

I suppose if we're taking your approach: Sasuke can open portals to the afterlife and Naruto can create new lifeforms with the Gedodama.


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 30, 2018)

I don't agree with all Sage's opinions but he's right here concerning Tsukiyomi  Sasuke's 3 MS techniques are Amaterasu Kagutsuchi and Susano'o.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Well we actually saw it, and Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo. You can do the guess work there-- no, you you can't.
> 
> You think Itachi can warp into the afterlife and kill Rinnegan Obito. <- Another ridiculous argument.
> 
> You really are a unique kind of special. I've never seen an Itachi fan like you... and I've seen some very outrageous ones.


You said "it wasn't stated" so I'm deflecting that backwards logic at yourself and asking you where Sasuke was "stated" to possess Tsukuyomi. You evaded the question. 

And yes it was "shown" that Itachi battling throughout was affected by his disease. So according to your current logic it doesn't have to be "stated" right? Since it was "shown"?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't agree with all Sage's opinions but he's right here concerning Tsukiyomi  Sasuke's 3 MS techniques are Amaterasu Kagutsuchi and Susano'o.



What about the fact that the manga and databook indicate Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo? 2 MS jutsu are needed for Susanoo, and Kagutsuchi is spatial manipulation of the Enton that Amaterasu creates. 



Sage light said:


> You said "it wasn't stated" so I'm deflecting that backwards logic at yourself and asking you where Sasuke was "stated" to possess Tsukuyomi. You evaded the question.
> 
> And yes it was "shown" that Itachi battling throughout was affected by his disease. So according to your current logic it doesn't have to be "stated" right? Since it was "shown"?



I presented a situation which you're avoiding: Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo and we saw a jutsu which looks like Tsukuyomi, you can guess the rest. If you can't, bear in mind Tsukuyomi had a reputation predating Sasuke and Itachi's existence just like Amaterasu and Susanoo. 

Battling through disease, explain the disease. The only information available about this disease is in the novel where Itachi took _eye medicine _for his disease. If his chakra capacity was affected, it would have been said seeing as Kishi loves pointing that out.

You're a unique kind of special, but I enjoy replying to you. You've given me Itachi's illness.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nah, the author's intent isn't tough to discern. Everything is literally in black and white.



It's not that the authors intent is "hard" or "difficult" to grasp, it's just that his authorial mind is in state of flux and with a limited amount of manga panels to relay each event, it's not always desirable to spell out every single detail when there has already been lore established to fill the gaps. As far as I'm concerned, when he Tobi revealed Itachi's terminal illness to the audience, it is literally spelling out that his stamina was affected. Because we know that physical energy is just one component of Chakra. You see Munboy, when I make claims they're entirely logical and backed by lore. When you make claims they're contradicted by lore. For example - Pain can see senjutsu chakra, yet failed utterly when Naruto lead the Animal path into Gamabunta's dark mouth.




> I'll be blunt and tell you what it looks like: you just can't cope with the fact that Itachi wasn't as strong as you wanted- just like every other Itachi fan couldn't cope with it.



He's plenty as strong as I wanted. Eye contact alone means he solos 99.99% of the verse. I'm just stating the obvious. Unlike you claiming that Nagato had sharingan powers but simply didn't know how to use them. Do you remember that little momento Munboy? Which part of the manga was it explicitly that Nagato's transplanted eye allowed him to break the tsukuyomi or use genjutsus? Isn't everything spelled in black and white.


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## Bookworm (Aug 30, 2018)

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian  Sasuke doesn't have to have Tsukuyomi regardless of what his MS jutsu are. The only thing you got is the black and white imagery, which you can't prove is only possible with Tsukuyomi.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato is a shit sensor.
> 
> Sensing from Itachi counters Hiraishin.
> 
> ...


Yes he is. Unable to sense while battling means he's shit at sensing.

It was substantiated. Itachi being an ally and wanting to kill his subordinates? And issuing an order to kill two of his subordinates a second prior to Gai appearing? Yeah he's a sensor, someone who can actually sense in battle unlike Minato.

Insults only bring your argument down it doesnt upgrade it. You can keep using them tho since you dont have a real "argument".


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## King1 (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian and ziggystardust are at it again, they are never on the same page


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> It's not that the authors intent is "hard" or "difficult" to grasp, it's just that his authorial mind is in state of flux and with a limited amount of manga panels to relay each event, it's not always desirable to spell out every single detail when there has already been lore established to fill the gaps. As far as I'm concerned, when he Tobi revealed Itachi's terminal illness to the audience, it is literally spelling out that his stamina was affected. Because we know that physical energy is just one component of Chakra. You see Munboy, when I make claims they're entirely logical and backed by lore. When you make claims they're contradicted by lore. For example - Pain can see senjutsu chakra, yet failed utterly when Naruto lead the Animal path into Gamabunta's dark mouth.



Ah, an attempt an argument. Let's have a look at everything you got wrong. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah~ all I see is you trying to make excuses for your bias. You have no real basis with any of your arguments. Why do I say this? You've yet to provide any details of the nature of Itachi's illness except your speculation.

Pain can see Senjutsu chakra, I posted a page where Pain did and specifically commented on how much Senjutsu chakra Naruto had left. Though, it seems you like to say you use the manga for your arguments as opposed to actually using the manga.

As to why he didn't see Animal Path? That's unrelated to his ability to see Senjutsu chakra. Though, it could be related to Fukasaku, Shima and Naruto acting quickly and Pain not thinking that they could be in Bunta as his reaction would indicate. But, again, you don't seem to actually use the manga.



> He's plenty as strong as I wanted. Eye contact alone means he solos 99.99% of the verse. I'm just stating the obvious. Unlike you claiming that Nagato had sharingan powers but simply didn't know how to use them. Do you remember that little momento Munboy? Which part of the manga was it explicitly that Nagato's transplanted eye allowed him to break the tsukuyomi or use genjutsus?



Apparently not since you need to try to force the idea that he had a higher chakra capacity than the manga showed he had. 

Nagato having Sharingan powers but not knowing it is logical considering there was a whole set of Sharingan underneath his Rinnegan. Kakashi could warp to box land, but didn't know it until the war. Astounding, basic logic in this manga is lost to you, yet you've tricked yourself into thinking your Itachi claims are logical. 

I guess you're going to ignore the Rinnegan being immune to Mugen Tsukuyomi- well, you have. Genjutsu, that's easy to deduce. However, there's a Genjutsu he used on the ninja in his village- we don't know how he used it. 

Oh ziggy, you're like a failed version of Sujee.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian  Sasuke doesn't have to have Tsukuyomi regardless of what his MS jutsu are. The only thing you got is the black and white imagery, which you can't prove is only possible with Tsukuyomi.



Black and white imagery with focus on the relevant MS while Sasuke held the MS when the illusion was broken. The latter 2 are traits that Itachi exhibited. 



Sage light said:


> Yes he is. Unable to sense while battling means he's shit at sensing.
> 
> It was substantiated. Itachi being an ally and wanting to kill his subordinates? And issuing an order to kill two of his subordinates a second prior to Gai appearing? Yeah he's a sensor, someone who can actually sense in battle unlike Minato.
> 
> Insults only bring your argument down it doesnt upgrade it. You can keep using them tho since you dont have a real "argument".



How do you know he can't sense while battling? It just means he needs to use sensing mode consciously, like other ninja. 

Itachi literally said he cannot sense. 

You realise the last line applies to you and ziggy. Though, I don't know how you took me saying I enjoy replying to you as an insult.


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## Jad (Aug 30, 2018)

Azula said:


> It's amazing that Gai completely failing is somehow a credit to him, when at no point did Madara ever says or thinks that Gai's taijutsu is somehow too much for him. Just casually dodging and blocking his strongest move.
> 
> And yet every other character who has fought Madara before is dis-credited even though Madara praise them, because "*Madara wasn't serious*" <--- Word for word argument here.
> 
> ...


Once again. Misinterpreted my post.

Gai amounted to doing NOTHING against Madara Juubi Junchurriki. He didn't damage him at all. But this is what I'm trying to explain.

Gai out performed anyone in his group. In comparison to those around him, he was able to force Madara back  (don't deny this it's panel for panel what happened) and get better reactionary responses from Madara. So, why can't I be impressed and use this FEAT in my arguments JUST AS GAARA was impressed. Gaara who was jaw dropped couldn't believe someone could move like that.

It's funny, I remember a scene right after the panel you posted Mr IQ 200 Kakashi had hope in Gai's Taijutsu despite what his witnessed, which is down right another set of portrayl for Gai.

Gai failing against Juubi Jinchuuriki for the few seconds he tried is a win for his character. Because those few seconds he tried out performed the three guys standing beside him, and he lasted a few seconds pushing a god back and avoiding death in an exhange of Taijutsu. That's impressive.

Side note: Madara never dodged any of Gai's 7th Gated attacks. He didn't even block Hirudora correctly because you could see him skidding backwards after the blast.

Also another side note: Gai's Hirudora was as big as 5% Katsuya (or close to it). Which is massive, so Gai would have effectively pushed Madara so far into the battlefield that a failed Hirudora blast of that size couldn't hit unsuspecting Minato, Gaara or Kakashi. That's the distance Gai pushed Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara. Not a few meters.

Not saying it was Gai's intention to drag him that far, but it's what happened. Otherwise  the others would have definitely been caught in the blast of Hiurodra. It's details like that you guys miss.

Hirudora by the way is not a slow growing explosion, it's explained in the Databook and Gai (I think), it's an instant blast. Which is pretty Normal for explosions.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What about the fact that the manga and databook indicate Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo? 2 MS jutsu are needed for Susanoo, and Kagutsuchi is spatial manipulation of the Enton that Amaterasu creates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay. 

- Itachi was shown to be physically affected in battle (due to disease).
- Itachi was shown to have internal damage by it's symptoms i.e, blood cough, focus on the heart area (due to disease).

So we can "guess" the reason right? 

And yes Kishi has the habit of vocalising which character has which jutsu. He blatantly said Jiraiya has Frog Kata in the databook despite him not using them in canon. He doesn't make the audience "guess" them.


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## Bookworm (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Black and white imagery with focus on the relevant MS while Sasuke held the MS when the illusion was broken. The latter 2 are traits that Itachi exhibited.


The fact that it was same eye doesn't really matter, it doesn't prove anything. There's no proof that Sasuke was holding his eye only right after his genjutsu was broken, he could been holding his eye before the illusion was broken.

Sasuke has held his eye when he used his genjutsu against Cee and the genjutsu wasn't broken than.


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 30, 2018)

> What about the fact that the manga and databook indicate Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo? 2 MS jutsu are needed for Susanoo, and Kagutsuchi is spatial manipulation of the Enton that Amaterasu creates.



His 2 MS jutsu are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi.

Itachi has Tsukiyomi/Amaterasu Sasuke has Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi and those 2 give them their Susano just like DMS gave Kakashi his.

The difference between Itachi and Sasuke's use of the flames is Sasuke can potentially chakra flow enton, coat arrows or weaponry in enton, spatially manipulate the flames into piercing spikes or other objects, etc. He can reuse Amaterasu flames lying around instead of having to exhaustively cast another.

Itachi can only shoot it from his eye and drag it, and suppress it. It's the difference between just Chidori and Hebi Sasuke having Nagashi, chakra flow weaponry, chidori senbon, chidori eizo etc.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Black and white imagery with focus on the relevant MS while Sasuke held the MS when the illusion was broken. The latter 2 are traits that Itachi exhibited.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kyuubi blatantly states he has to switch to sensory mode. If he could use it passively there'd been no need for such statement.

Doesn't matter as feats imply otherwise. You've to explain how Gai managed to arrive at the right time and Jiraiya managed to arrive at the right time.


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## goombanthime (Aug 30, 2018)

Base Gai beats hebi Sasuke because he smashed a boulder

Sakura is in the same tier as BM Naruto


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 30, 2018)

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian 
Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu that controls the 5 senses just the same as any other genjutsu except: 
It additionally controls the opponents sense of time.

Sasuke doesn't control the afflicted's sense of time, as Danzo noted. Because whatever Sasuke used does not control perception of time, the genjutsu is by definition not Tsukiyomi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Okay.
> 
> - Itachi was shown to be physically affected in battle (due to disease).
> - Itachi was shown to have internal damage by it's symptoms i.e, blood cough, focus on the heart area (due to disease).
> ...



We know he coughed blood and got slower after using the MS.

Why did the novel go with the fact Itachi took eye medication to deal with his illness?

Jiraiya having Frog Kata is obvious, though its just not at the level of Naruto if you look at the definition of frog kata. Like with Itachi's illness, it depends how honest the relevant fandom wants to be. 



Bookworm said:


> The fact that it was same eye doesn't really matter, it doesn't prove anything. There's no proof that Sasuke was holding his eye right after his genjutsu was broken, he could been holding his eye before the illusion was broken.
> 
> Sasuke has held his eye when he used his genjutsu against Cee and the genjutsu wasn't broken than.



This is an Uchiha, so the fact it was the same eye *does matter *and it proves a lot. Anything to do with eyes always matters to Uchiha.
Especially since he used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu he obtained Susanoo. Sasuke literally held his eye after using the illusion, just like Itachi did. There are so many parallels that it is almost insane to deny them.

A problem with the C example: Sasuke used his base Sharingan, held the wrong eye and there were no inverted panels.



Lawrence777 said:


> His 2 MS jutsu are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi.
> 
> Itachi has Tsukiyomi/Amaterasu Sasuke has Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi and those 2 give them their Susano just like DMS gave Kakashi his.
> 
> ...



Let's take this step by step: the manga and databook both indicate Kagutsuchi were obtained after Susanoo. How does your argument hold up to that?



Sage light said:


> Kyuubi blatantly states he has to switch to sensory mode. If he could use it passively there'd been no need for such statement.
> 
> Doesn't matter as feats imply otherwise. You've to explain how Gai managed to arrive at the right time and Jiraiya managed to arrive at the right time.



How do you know that's not the case for all ninja who aren't Sage or Jinchuriki sensors? FYI Minato sensed Tobi trying to pull a sneak attack on him. 

You're basically telling me that you're going to ignore what Itachi said in canon.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Lawrence777 said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu that controls the 5 senses just the same as any other genjutsu except:
> It additionally controls the opponents sense of time.
> 
> Sasuke doesn't control the afflicted's sense of time, as Danzo noted. Because whatever Sasuke used does not control perception of time, the genjutsu is by definition not Tsukiyomi.



Can you measure time through panels?

Also Sasuke never said Sasuke can't do that. He compared Sharingan Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Danzo stated what we knew, that Tsukuyomi>Sharingan Genjutsu, but he gave us a reason for it.


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Let's take this step by step: the manga and databook both indicate Kagutsuchi were obtained after Susanoo. How does your argument hold up to that?


I don't know what you mean can you show why you think he has Tsukiyomi?

To be honest though Sasuke doesn't have Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi/Susano'o and Tsukiyomi my friend.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't know what you mean can you show why you think he has Tsukiyomi?
> 
> To be honest though Sasuke doesn't have Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi/Susano'o and Tsukiyomi my friend.



You need the MS jutsu from both eyes awakened to obtain Susanoo. Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Bee, then he awakened and used Amaterasu on Bee. Then he obtained Susanoo. Thereafter he learnt how to apply spatial manipulation on Amaterasu -- Kagutsuchi. 

Don't dodge the question: it was clear in the manga and databook that Sasuke had Susanoo _*before *_he had Kagutsuchi. It is made clear via a few mediums that 2 MS jutsu (one per eye) need to be awakened to unlock Susanoo. If Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo, option is there for the other jutsu?

I know a lot of posters are happy to brush this detail under the rug and pretend it never happened, but I'm not going to do that. If you want me to, then you're going to have to adequately answer this: how can Kagutsuchi be Sasuke's other jutsu when he got it after Susanoo?


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## Bookworm (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This is an Uchiha, so the fact it was the same eye *does matter *and it proves a lot. Anything to do with eyes always matters to Uchiha.
> Especially since he used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu he obtained Susanoo. Sasuke literally held his eye after using the illusion, just like Itachi did. There are so many parallels that it is almost insane to deny them.
> 
> A problem with the C example: Sasuke used his base Sharingan, held the wrong eye and there were no inverted panels.


If random Uchiha A and random Uchiha B both used a MS genjutsu with the same eyes as Sasuke and Itachi does that mean they also have Tsukuyomi?

If you're talking about when Sasuke held his eye during the Bee fight, there's no proof he only held his eye right after Bee broke his genjutsu. 

The reason I mentioned him holding his eye after his genjutsu with Cee, is to prove just, because Sasuke holds his eye doesn't mean he has Tsukuyomi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> If random Uchiha A and random Uchiha B both used a MS genjutsu with the same eyes as Sasuke and Itachi does that mean they also have Tsukuyomi?
> 
> If you're talking about when Sasuke held his eye during the Bee fight, there's no proof he only held his eye right after Bee broke his genjutsu.
> 
> The reason I mentioned him holding his eye after his genjutsu with Cee, is to prove just, because Sasuke holds his eye doesn't mean he has Tsukuyomi.



If they use the relevant Tsukuyomi eye and we see inverted panels, then we can assume so. Especially if the illusion breaks because they'll hold the Tsukuyomi eye. 

If we put it side by side with what happened to Itachi, that's good enough. Plus it flows well with the other strong evidence, focus on the Tsukuyomi eye with an illusion which had the trademark inverted panels. 

That C analogy would worked if Sasuke held the actual eye he used Tsukuyomi from and if C actually broke the illusion. But those things didn't happen, so it doesn't prove anything except Sasuke can use incredibly powerful Genjutsu without resorting to Tsukuyomi. 

Then there's also Kagutsuchi being obtained _after _Susnaoo.  To be honest, unlike a lot of posters, I'm not willing to ignore that inconsistency. If we weren't meant to think it was Tsukuyomi then the illusion would not have been used like that.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy is the type routinely presents evidence that debunks his own case as though it proved it and makes cringe arguments of little coherence.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Munboy is type routinely presents evidence that debunks his own case as though it proved it and makes cringe arguments of little coherence.



Passive aggressive posts only highlight that you've got no points that hold. Well... not that I can blame you when you have yet to present a point that holds.

Normally I'd ask you to prove your point... but you've shown you're incapable of doing so.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We know he coughed blood and got slower after using the MS.
> 
> Why did the novel go with the fact Itachi took eye medication to deal with his illness?
> 
> Jiraiya having Frog Kata is obvious, though its just not at the level of Naruto if you look at the definition of frog kata. Like with Itachi's illness, it depends how honest the relevant fandom wants to be.


And that could serve as an indicator on how the physical capabilities (including chakra) were inhibited.

Look, I'm not really arguing whether the shortage of chakra was due to illness and eye-usage or not. I'm simply using the exact logic which you use in constructing your headcanon against yourself since you aren't in agreement when others use the same logic.

It wasn't obvious at all. Frog Kata's key essence is that Taijutsu and he doesn't show it. Hence Kishi blatantly details it in the DB.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How do you know that's not the case for all ninja who aren't Sage or Jinchuriki sensors? FYI Minato sensed Tobi trying to pull a sneak attack on him.
> 
> You're basically telling me that you're going to ignore what Itachi said in canon.


Hence why sensor shinobi aren't battle types mostly. Those who are (Tobirama, Minato) has to _change _thier chakra (thereby negating all further usage of offensive Ninjutsu) the process hence incapable of utilizing in real battle. Where does he sense Tobi? 

No it's not really going against the Manga as it supports it.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 30, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Passive aggressive posts only highlight that you've got no points that hold. Well... not that I can blame you when you have yet to present a point that holds.
> 
> Normally I'd ask you to prove your point... but you've shown you're incapable of doing so.



Let's have a look at the last two topics we debated :


Whether or not Nagato can see through physical objects
Whether or not Itachi's illness affected his stamina

We debated for a bit. I make a thread. You used a retconned scan of Pain seeing through a small ball of smoke, I use an updated scan of Pain failing to see through a ball of smoke, underground and inside Gamabunta's mouth.


Everyone reading agrees with my premise and questions your intelligence

On the second claim. We debate for a bit. I post a thread. I make the claim that Itachi's stamina would logically be affected by a terminal illness and use canon evidence to explain why this is the case. You disagree, with no reason and invoke the non-canon Itachi novel.


Everyone reading agrees with my premise and questions your intelligence

Notice the trend Munboy?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 30, 2018)

What I often find ridiculous is the fact that some find certain opinions “ridiculous “ for one because 98% of the forums have vastly overrated characters like KCM Naruto , Nagato , they can’t fathom the notion that they would lose to Itachi & Minato they completely ignore the statements made in the manga and actual on panel potrayal and decide to create this hypothetical fantasy world based upon how they would write the character and not how said character was actually written.

When the Nagato/Itachi vs Naruto/Bee fight happened they use every excuse in the book like Naruto was exhausted , or Pain was being controlled or it was just PIS , they do it because the outcome of that fight goes against their fantasy of what they wanted to happen in the manga which is Naruto to flatten Itachi like a Pancake or for Pain to have a much better showing but that’s not what happened , Itachi came out looking the best in that fight ON PANEL he was the most capable , brilliant , executed the plan perfectly , had a counter for what Nagato threw at him and was the primary catalyst in defeating him , not to mention Itachi talked down to him like a little bitch , then Naruto with KCM was embarrassed and they use the excuse was he only had one clone but we see in other fights KCM Naruto performance was inconsistent he was getting his ass kicked against Juubi Jins , couldn’t put down 3rd Raikage and failed to blitz any character outside of Kisame/Ei .

With Minato he slapped around the guy who had Nagato on a leash like a lost puppy with ease , has handled every situation with ease until Juubi Jins got involved but in their mind Nagato’s raw power would be too much for Minato handler despite he babyshaked 100% Kurama who is >>>>Nagato , had Rinnegan Obito on the ropes who is >>Nagato , deflected a TBB from the Ten Tails who is >>>>>>>Nagato took on 8 tails + Bee which are > SM Naruto/Jiraiya they got nothing on panel , nothing that actually happened in the manga just their own fantasies and delusions.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Sage light said:


> And that could serve as an indicator on how the physical capabilities (including chakra) were inhibited.
> 
> Look, I'm not really arguing whether the shortage of chakra was due to illness and eye-usage or not. I'm simply using the exact logic which you use in constructing your headcanon against yourself since you aren't in agreement when others use the same logic.
> 
> ...



Read the previous posts, you're just repeating the same points that were disproved and discredited in more than 4 different threads.



ziggystardust said:


> Let's have a look at the last two topics we debated :
> 
> 
> Whether or not Nagato can see through physical objects
> ...



The trend I notice is that you ignore evidence disproving and discrediting your claims and repeat the same things. Exactly like Sage light.

You've got nothing, when you actually have some points, hit me up. FYI posters ignoring key details like yourself doesn't suggest you've got a point. It suggests those posters are just missing out key details to make their notions stick as you are. Not that it is surprising since at this point mostly hardcore fanboys are active.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 31, 2018)

Ziggy just trashed Munboy

Hilarious


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy STILL arguing that All MS users have Totsuka, Yata and Tsukuyomi i see 

Meanwhile its stated on panel what sasukes MS powers are and ARE NOT multiple times

Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi and his third power is Susanoo

If you read the damn manga in 2010 when Enton debuted, youd know that


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Munboy STILL arguing that All MS users have Totsuka, Yata and Tsukuyomi i see
> 
> Meanwhile its stated on panel what sasukes MS powers are and ARE NOT multiple times
> 
> ...



This is an example of you ignoring details which don't fit with your notion. 

You've been shown that Sasuke didn't obtain Kagutsuchi until the Kage Summit and you've also been shown the databook entry which confirms this. 

Yet you pretend those details don't exist and carry on saying Sasuke's 3 jutsu were Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi and Susanoo.

As for the all MS users and Susanoo, you've been shown the databook entries. We've seen Sasuke use a lower form of the Susanoo sword which matches Itachi's. We've seen Sasuke use Yata and have a mirror which matches Yata in V4... but again you've chosen to ignore those details. 

Well, I suppose this is the quality of poster that's the norm in this section.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Well, I suppose this is the quality of poster that's the norm in this section.



I see, so everyone is wrong except for you ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> I see, so everyone is wrong except for you ?



If I'm arguing with posters like you and WorldsStrongest, I'm most likely going to be right because unlike those sort of posters, I don't ignore details. Nor do I make (bad) excuses as to why those details shouldn't count. 

Basically I consider you a bias poster if you've actually considered all details. However, the posters you cited as well as yourself, don't actually do this. 

As I implied, not many posters do this these days.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If I'm arguing with posters like you and WorldsStrongest, I'm most likely going to be right because unlike those sort of posters, I don't ignore details. Nor do I make (bad) excuses as to why those details shouldn't count.



Let's see :

- You don't believe retcons can exist in the manga
- You bring up the retconned evidence in question to disprove a retcon
- You use non-canon evidence to debunk genuine canon rational
- You regularly bring forth evidence that actually debunks your own points and present it as if they've proved them
- Aren't capable of a critical thought beyond some cringy incoherent ranting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This is an example of you ignoring details which don't fit with your notion.


No this is an exampel of me ignoring someones really stupid headcanon and massive jumps in logic in favor of the canon material

Its what reasonable people do when they debate

Try it sometime


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You've been shown that Sasuke didn't obtain Kagutsuchi until the Kage Summit


No but youve been shown that Sasuke awakend his second MS power during the Bee fight as he himself fucking states

 literally verbatim. 

And EVERY pair of MS eyes only has ONE POWER PER EYE. It is fucking confirmed ON PANEL what both of Sasueks eyes are individually capable of...Ama with the Left...Kagutsuchi with the right. Pull your head out of your ass and stop living in 2009. As of 2010, its confirmed what Sasukes eyes can do and its NOT Tsukuyomi.

Gtfo with youre bullshit like youve "proven" anything to anyone 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> you've also been shown the databook entry which confirms this.


No the DB entry is later corrected with later DBs for starters, add to that the MANGA contradicts what the databook has show anyway.

This is you arguing with outdated information. Might as well start arguing Gravity isnt a scientific proven constant on this planet because some few 100 years ago it wasnt proven that it was 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yet you pretend those details don't exist


I dont pretend they dont exist...They blatantly fucking arent credible is all.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> carry on saying Sasuke's 3 jutsu were Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi and Susanoo


Because they fucking are

As stated by Sasuke himself and as proven by his every fucking feat and showing.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As for the all MS users and Susanoo, you've been shown the databook entries


Youve been shown the manga 

Manga > DB


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We've seen Sasuke use a lower form of the Susanoo sword which matches Itachi's




Till then, youre wrong

Fun fact youre gonna stay wrong on this topic forever because Sasuke doesnt fucking have Totsuka 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We've seen Sasuke use Yata


No we havent

Weve seen him use his Bow to double as a shield







Notice how its never once stated in all of the canon manga that Sasuke has Yata or Totsuka?

Thanks for playing.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Well, I suppose this is the quality of poster that's the norm in this section.


I can understand youre upset as you cant post with the bare minimum amount of quality this section does

No need to make shit up tho

Stop doing that and youll make it in one day

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Aug 31, 2018)

I swear these threads are always the most entertaining


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Let's see :
> 
> - You don't believe retcons can exist in the manga
> - You bring up the retconned evidence in question to disprove a retcon
> ...



This is the sort of poor quality I'm referencing:

- The retcons you and a select amount of posters cite is nothing more than you denying information which contradicts what you want to say about your favourites. You seem to think calling it a "retcon" adds credibility. 
- Same as the above, you're just looking for excuses to maintain a false notion you've tricked yourself into believing. 
- All my evidence is canon, yours is just denying evidence and making up stuff to make things fit while pretending the evidence you deny doesn't exist. 
- I've never disproved my own points, for you to think so only highlights that you don't understand the posts you read. Not that it surprises me with your level of bias. 
- Cute, but it doesn't hide the fact that you've got absolutely nothing. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> No this is an exampel of me ignoring someones really stupid headcanon and massive jumps in logic in favor of the canon material
> 
> Its what reasonable people do when they debate
> 
> Try it sometime



No, it is just an example of you ignoring canon. You can't quote the whole train of thought, that tells me how "reasonable" your style of debating is. Though, I see you still type like someone took some candy away from you. 



> No but youve been shown that Sasuke awakend his second MS power during the Bee fight as he himself fucking states
> 
> literally verbatim.
> 
> ...



Let's look at all the reasons you're wrong again:

Ah, my favourite "Sasuke extinguished Amaterasu, that's when he got Kagutsuchi". You're wrong because Itachi did the same thing:

Tell me you think Itachi has Kagutsuchi.



As for C's remark, well C deduced that Sasuke's other jutsu is Kagutsuchi, reasonable that's what he saw. However, he also said Sasuke being able to manipulate Enton flames were a sign that he was better than Itachi with Enton. That tells you Enton Kagutsuchi is merely applying spatial manipulation to the black flames, Amaterasu. 

However, as the readers, we know Sasuke obtained this jutsu (ability, more like) _after _he obtained Susanoo. Please don't ignore this detail like you tend to do. 

The databook confirms that I'm right and you're wrong:

_Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai - Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi
No rank, close to mid range, offensive, defensive
Users: Sasuke Uchiha

*Immortal black flames turn into a blade of flames that mows down life!!*

A ninjutsu where form manipulation is added to the never disappearing immortal flames that are "Amaterasu". I*n his fight with the Raikage, Sasuke was forced into a predicament and in that moment, he created this technique*. Like "Amaterasu", it's a ninjutsu only those who awakened the "Mangekyo Sharingan" can use, changing the flames into a sharp blade to greatly increase their killing power. Not only is the enemy burned by "Amaterasu", he also suffers burn damage instantly. By regulating the form manipulation, it's even possible to use the flames as a throwing weapon to attack from afar.

⬅ Because already existing flames of "Amaterasu" can be used, the requiered amount of chakra is lessened.

⬆ The blazing black flames are changed into the form of thorns! Becoming a sword of black flames that burns off what it touches, to protect Sasuke!!_​
Let's first sort this Kagutsuchi point out before we go into the Tsukuyomi point. Do you really think, with the evidence I've shown that you seemed to have ignored, that Sasuke obtained Kagutsuchi before Susanoo? 

Your databook notions are just trash, the manga comes first. However, what you're doing is ignoring the parts that fit- which is the wrong course of action. 

As for Totsuka:
- Itachi's lower Susanoo form has the _exact _same sword Sasuke does. It doesn't look like Madara's, it looks like Sasuke. Explain that. 

As for Yata:
- You posted the page, we saw it do what Yata is said to do to Ninjutsu
- When V4 Susanoo manifested against Kakashi, from what the text box didn't block we could see the same pattern Yata has with Itachi's. 

Had we seen more V4 Susanoo, I'd have agreed. However, we didn't leading us to believe databook 4's description of it is the norm and that Sasuke showed us the subtle difference that talented users can apply Enton to it. 

Argue without looking for excuses to ignore evidence. If you're going to cry "retcon" then you've got to have a _*strong *_case for doing so.


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## Ishmael (Aug 31, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I swear these threads are always the most entertaining



Lmao it brings out the viciousness in these guys, I love a good debate and this is certainly good.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Using a movie to say Sasuke can deactivate the Rinnegan while ignoring the Naruto and Boruto manga is pretty ridiculous, tbh.

Claiming Madara's PS is comparable to the Juubi is also ridiculous.

Then there's Itachi being faster than Tobirama too...


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## Troyse22 (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Using a movie to say Sasuke can deactivate the Rinnegan while ignoring the Naruto and Boruto manga is pretty ridiculous, tbh.
> 
> Claiming Madara's PS is comparable to the Juubi is also ridiculous.
> 
> Then there's Itachi being faster than Tobirama too...



Movies are just as canon as Manga as per Kishi.

It being inconsistent doesn't mean it's not canon


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Movies are just as canon as Manga as per Kishi.
> 
> It being inconsistent doesn't mean it's not canon



Except we have 2 sources showing that's not the case. Manga takes priority over both, same rules with the databook and novels.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except we have 2 sources showing that's not the case. Manga takes priority over both, same rules with the databook and novels.



Says who? You?

The manga had people other than Kishimoto working on it, it wasn’t _all_ his own creation. Besides, it contradicted itself multiple times before even you start including things like the DB and novels.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Says who? You?
> 
> The manga had people other than Kishimoto working on it, it wasn’t _all_ his own creation. Besides, it contradicted itself multiple times before even you start including things like the DB and novels.



Everyone has been following the standard of manga comes first when including other sources. Or have you forgotten that?

How did the manga contradict itself? The "contradictions" posters usually cite aren't contradictions at all. DB and novels can actually have contradictions hence the "manga comes first" rule.


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I swear these threads are always the most entertaining


If you liked these then you should have seen prime obd.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Everyone has been following the standard of manga comes first when including other sources. Or have you forgotten that?
> 
> How did the manga contradict itself? The "contradictions" posters usually cite aren't contradictions at all. DB and novels can actually have contradictions hence the "manga comes first" rule.



No they haven’t, just people who are ignorant to the issues the manga has as a source.

The manga is of course full of contradictions. It’s timeline, for one thing. Or it’s consistency with size and scale. Shoving things down our throat like “Sakura caught up to Naruto and Sasuke” despite them being shown off as much more powerful moments later. Or “Hiruzen is the most powerful Hokage”, only for Hashirama to steal that title in Part 2.


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## Trojan (Aug 31, 2018)

Sasuke's "deactivated" Rinnegan is just an art error. That should be fairly obvious.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No they haven’t, just people who are ignorant to the issues the manga has as a source.
> 
> The manga is of course full of contradictions. It’s timeline, for one thing. Or it’s consistency with size and scale. Shoving things down our throat like “Sakura caught up to Naruto and Sasuke” despite them being shown off as much more powerful moments later. Or “Hiruzen is the most powerful Hokage”, only for Hashirama to steal that title in Part 2.



Elaborate.

That's the result of poor reading, to be very blunt. Hiruzen being the most powerful Hokage, we immediately got told his age held him back and later that Hashirama's power was so strong it was considered to be mythical. Sakura felt she caught up to them in the same way Tsunade caught up to her peers, she could fight without holding them back.

What inconsistencies with size and scale are you thinking of?



Hussain said:


> Sasuke's "deactivated" Rinnegan is just an art error. That should be fairly obvious.



It should, but you get ninjas saying "but the movie" while ignoring the Naruto and Boruto manga.


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## Ishmael (Aug 31, 2018)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> If you liked these then you should have seen prime obd.



Tell me can i still go back and see such a glorious era? I use to read the funny argument thread, last one I read use to talk about tonathan. The super man guy.


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> Tell me can i still go back and see such a glorious era? I use to read the funny argument thread, last one I read use to talk about tonathan. The super man guy.


Naruto vs Bleach vs One Peace, just think about all the wanking.


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

Superman vs Goku is the new cancer threads now.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Superman vs Goku is the new cancer threads now.



I wonder if it is still banned.


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I wonder if it is still banned.


It is but people do it anyway.


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## Buuhan (Aug 31, 2018)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Superman vs Goku is the new cancer threads now.


Oh man that battle predates the internet lol.


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Oh man that battle predates the internet lol.


And now Goku is catching up to even most Supes so .....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> It is but people do it anyway.



Superman is hard to argue for as you have to decide which writer's Superman you plan to use, tbh. Though IIRC the Rebirth Superman is basically a composite Superman.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> And now Goku is catching up to even most Supes so .....



Not even MUI is considered close?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 31, 2018)

7 Gate Gai having God Tier speed.


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Superman is hard to argue for as you have to decide which writer's Superman you plan to use, tbh. Though IIRC the Rebirth Superman is basically a composite Superman.


So it has thotbot and sv supes in it as well?


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Not even MUI is considered close?


Mui dances on most superdorks.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> So it has thotbot and sv supes in it as well?



I don't know what those mean. 

IIRC it was New 52 and Pre-Crisis Superman.


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't know what those mean.
> 
> IIRC it was New 52 and Pre-Crisis Superman.


Learn more, focus on the thread.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Another ridiculous argument: assuming Itachi had the same illness as Kimimaro.

Another: Itachi beats blind SM Madara with a clone feint.


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## Lurko (Aug 31, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Another ridiculous argument: assuming Itachi had the same illness as Kimimaro.
> 
> Another: Itachi beats blind SM Madara with a clone feint.


Itachi though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stonaem (Aug 31, 2018)

I've noticed that the Akatsuki Mid Four seem to not be allowed their positive portrayal.

Arguments are always made that said portrayal doesn't count even tho it was clearly meant to make them look good

For example:
KaKuzu fighting Hashirama usually gets the reply of 'Hashirama was being kind
Deidara beating Gaara us usually overlooked in favor of his loss to Sasuke, as is his standing even with Ohnoki in movement speed
Sasori beating SANDaime is countered by 'SANDaime was weak' as is his being portrayed better than Chiyo inspires claims that her clashing with Hanzo is illegitimate
Of course, there's Kisame matching Killer Bee

This also applies to other non-faves
Hidan isn't allowed the credit of soloing Yugito. 
Ay(3) isn't allowed to have faced everything Gyuki has especially the TBB
Konan can't create paper, I've heard


Ahh, I almost forgot that Kurenai didn't match Itachi in genjutsu clash, even tho she did

It's funny because most of these don't change much on the Tier List. It's like the idea of other characters being remotely impressive does something nasty to posters


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 1, 2018)

Another ridiculous argument: if a character has parallels with another, that means they have the same level of strength. That's obviously not true.


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## Ishmael (Sep 1, 2018)

Silnaem said:


> KaKuzu fighting Hashirama usually gets the reply of 'Hashirama was being kind



Which is odd, Hashirama who was willing to kill someone he saw as a respected rival and friend for the sake of his people. Would be kind to a outsider sent to kill him? I'd believe kakazu at that time lost more hearts then he wanted and opted to retreat.


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 1, 2018)

I hate the Tsunade being slow and linear and the too slow to hit anyone argument.


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## Ishmael (Sep 1, 2018)

Lmao guilty is charged and it isn't changing, idgaf.
 If she fights someone more agile then her and who's speed is better, her down hill, hit hard and wreck things style not doing anything. Let her try that with dudes who have techs that can go up in secs while being in cqc, she's getting wounded. 
Her attacks are being dodged and countered and more than likely they'd just use the time to get out of cqc.
 Depending on the distance she probably won't even get in cqc if the fighters smart enough to use ninjutsu correctly.


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 1, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> Lmao guilty is charged and it isn't changing, idgaf.
> If she fights someone more agile then her and who's speed is better, her down hill, hit hard and wreck things style not doing anything. Let her try that with dudes who have techs that can go up in secs while being in cqc, she's getting wounded.
> Her attacks are being dodged and countered and more than likely they'd just use the time to get out of cqc.
> Depending on the distance she probably won't even get in cqc if the fighters smart enough to use ninjutsu correctly.


You don't have to (gaf) as you put it. It has already been decided that speed isn't an end all thing combat speed is also a thing. This downhill fighting style that you speak of does not exist she has only done this once and she states that putting your life on the line is the highest level of fighting there is because she doesn't worry about losing her life while doing so. The only reason this did not work against Madara is that of his five on one nigh immortal Susanoo clones where she almost collapsed but people also forget she had that moment because she had temporarily dealt with her clones unlike everyone else but Ohnoki. Her seal allows her to fight without worry of injury so that point is null. What you're saying is that this taijutsu master who specializes in reading attack patterns isn't going to land the one hit she needs on to kill her opponent? Makes total sense. Projectile ninjutsu has and can be countered as shown in the Madara fight if her style of fighting was weak she wouldn't be renowned for both her combat and medical ninjutsu.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 1, 2018)

- Kisame & Itachi low diffing Hashirama !!

- Hidan beats a bijuu w/o blood ritual or Kakuzu's aid but just with his physical attiributes !

- Haku & Kimimaro beats Tsunade alongside with Katsuyu !

- Darui & Cee kills Base Jiriaya

- MS Itachi is a open threat to the EMS Madara and stronger than EMS Sasuke !

- Minato's foot speed is a standard jonin speed !

- Jiraiya's hair could tank attacks like mini bijuu dama or FRS !

- Kakashi is gonna kumai all Sannin in their prime right of the bat and soloes them thats why he is >> Prime Hanzo ! OMG !

- WA Sakura is equal to the KCM2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke ! (chuckles)

- Sasori is one the top chars at High Kage section ! High-High kage

- Kisame >= Nagato and he can easily beat SM Kabuto, SM Naruto, KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, MS Obito, Tobirama, Minato, KCM Minato individually !

- Hebi Sasuke beating Sannin (while manga portrayed otherwisely), Most of the Mid Kages and he is a almost high kage person !

- 7G Gai beats A4, A3, Killer Bee individually !

- 7G Gai soloes Sannin !

- WA Kakashi > MS Itachi  !

- MS-free Kakashi beats Hirashinless Minato or 3T Itachi or Base Jiraiya(individualy). And No-Sharingan Kakashi beats Tsunade with ease !

- Haku faster than Base Gai

- WA Rock Lee is kage level

- WA Sakura one punches WA Gaara

This is getting sad not funny after some amont of 'em.. So ım gonna stop.


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 1, 2018)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> WA Sakura is equal to the KCM2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke ! (chuckles)


Not as far-fetched as it seems but I understand what you mean


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## Stonaem (Sep 5, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> Which is odd, Hashirama who was willing to kill someone he saw as a respected rival and friend for the sake of his people. Would be kind to a outsider sent to kill him? I'd believe kakazu at that time lost more hearts then he wanted and opted to retreat.


The big issue most seem to have, on top of having a psychologist's-fallacy-based, tier-list-gg mindset, is that Kakuzu didn't have his forbidden techs at that time

He got them after fighting Hashirama, if I'm correct


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## Tri (Sep 5, 2018)

Most arguments for Kakashi have been so bad lately that Bonly is memeing in Kakashi threads again


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## Ishmael (Sep 5, 2018)

I miss the days kakashi was respected.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Buuhan (Sep 6, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> I miss the days kakashi was respected.


Honestly I can see why you say that with some of the opinions ive seen lately. He's one of my favorites.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Sep 6, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Honestly I can see why you say that with some of the opinions ive seen lately. He's one of my favorites.



People are just mad that he can solo their fav characters if he so chooses to, as Kishimoto portrayed him to be able to do to someone on MS Obito's or Gedo Mazo caliber. Both which were countered by Kamui which no one else has.

I wouldn't worry about a few trolls posting butthurt nonsense.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Buuhan (Sep 6, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> People are just mad that he can solo their fav characters if he so chooses to, as Kishimoto portrayed him to be able to do to someone on MS Obito's or Gedo Mazo caliber. Both which were countered by Kamui which no one else has.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about a few trolls posting butthurt nonsense.


Yeah the memeing they do doesn't really dissuade me from placing him as high as i do.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Sep 6, 2018)

I feel in certain  time periods. Certain characters got more respect based on the debaters who sided with them, as debaters came and went certain characters outlook did as well. 

Like back then you couldn't get away with saying bs about kakashi because of guys like raikiri19 or ryuzaki coming at you like blood hounds. Which resulted in him being being rated fairly. 

Same goes for many others but that's a prime example.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 6, 2018)

Gai kills Katsuyu by sweating thousands and thousands of gallons.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 6, 2018)

Itachi moves faster than Ay.


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## Santoryu (Sep 6, 2018)

People still doubting that Kakashi can kill Kage-level shinobi with Kamui in 2018.


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## Santoryu (Sep 6, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> I feel in certain  time periods. Certain characters got more respect based on the debaters who sided with them, as debaters came and went certain characters outlook did as well.
> 
> Like back then you couldn't get away with saying bs about kakashi because of guys like *raikiri19* or ryuzaki coming at you like blood hounds. Which resulted in him being being rated fairly.
> 
> Same goes for many others but that's a prime example.



This guy destroyed the forum. War arc Kakashi stamina right there.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Sep 6, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> This guy destroyed the forum. War arc Kakashi stamina right there.



There is also posters like @Yoko, who do outstanding posts every single time.

Ultimately, the respect that few others give to the characters you like, matters very little. It's all subjective but if it came down to numbers, I would say nowadays the BD is as great as it's ever been with guys like @Buuhan , @Hasan ,@Gifted , @Santoryu , @Architect , @DaVizWiz  , @JuicyG  who I feel rate most characters including Kakashi, very fairly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## goombanthime (Sep 6, 2018)

Kisame has bijuu level of strength and only got his chess burst open by v2 B because he was caught off guard (despite blocking the attack and absorbing the chakra at the same time)

same person

base Guy can one shot Jiraya based on a comedy scene in which Jman gets caught off guard and gets a bloody nose


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## Troyse22 (Sep 6, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> Kisame has bijuu level of strength and only got his chess burst open by v2 B because he was caught off guard (despite blocking the attack and absorbing the chakra at the same time)
> 
> same person
> 
> base Guy can one shot Jiraya based on a comedy scene in which Jman gets caught off guard and gets a bloody nose




Look at you all confrontational 

And it's not me who said Kisame was caught off guard, Gyuki (Kishi) outright stated it

Killer Bee- "At this rate I'll have to use lariat again"
Gyuki- "No, IT WONT WORK", he's RAISED HIS GUARD EVEN MORE since you used my tentacles, RETREAT"

Stay mad and keep up the manga denialism champ



goombanthime said:


> base Guy can one shot Jiraya based on a comedy scene in which Jman gets caught off guard and gets a bloody nose



"Everything I dont like or shows Jiraiya in a bad light is a comedy scene"


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## Zero890 (Sep 6, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> "Everything I dont like or shows Jiraiya in a bad light is a comedy scene"



"Everything I dont like or shows Kisame in a bad light is a retcon".

Reactions: Like 1


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## goombanthime (Sep 6, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Look at you all confrontationnal
> 
> And it's not me who said Kisame was caught off guard, Gyuki (Kishi) outright stated it
> 
> ...


Lets say that Kisame can block an attack off guard, Kisame gets his chess burst open while off guard, so Kisame = v2 B
on the other hand Jiraiya gets a bloody nose while caught off guard, so base Guy >> Jiraiya 
Can you see the slight inconsistency in your reasoning mate


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2018)

1- itachi defeating Oro means he defeats Jman & Tsunade low difficult. However, Minato/Tobirama trashing Obito/Izuna does not
mean they can trash itachi as easily.

2- Itachi is a lier. Any statement he said against himself (he is weaker than Jman) is a lie, if he said he is a failure, he is modest which makes him more perfect. If however, he said something that benefits him, then it's the ultimate truth (you can't break Tsukuyomi).  With that being said, Kabuto's statement (who is a bigger lier) about itachi/Hashirama are not lies because we don't have anything against those 2 characters.

3- Amaterasu is not as good as we think it is. However, since we love itachi so much, then we can agree that Amaterasu sucks, but SASUKE's version. God bless itachi's Amaterasu, it's just stronger than Sasuke's.

4- If a character used a strong move, but I don't like/care about that character, then the jutsu must be actually weak. If a character that I like used it, then it must be powerful. Yes, we have seen itachi's Megatamas being as strong as Explosion tags, but we will do our work as loyal fans and make them as strong as TBB/FRS because they were used alongside those moves....


to be continued...


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## Troyse22 (Sep 6, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> Lets say that Kisame can block an attack off guard, Kisame gets his chess burst open while off guard, so Kisame = v2 B



Kisame matching V2 Bee in physical strength happened on pane
Read their fight my guy

When Kisame was actually getting serious and realized Bee wasn't some pushover we saw the dramatic shift in his showings



goombanthime said:


> on the other hand Jiraiya gets a bloody nose while caught off guard, so base Guy >> Jiraiya



Base Gai loses to Yomi Numa pretty simply

But Gai in terms of speed, physical strength and CQC skill outclasses Jiraiya ten fold, especially when we saw him going toe to toe with Rinne Obito with no assistance, and actually matching him, even having the instinct to block his back with his nunchuku when Obito tried to blindside him with Gunbai

Plain and simple if Jiraiya doesn't start against Gai at a distance he'd get overwhelmed pretty easily and lose


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## Sweetcor (Sep 6, 2018)

Sage light said Tsunade or Sakura(i forgot who) can punch Narutos rasenshuriken back at him

Speedyamell said Sakuras punch can ragdoll tailed beast

The Rasenshuriken one had me DYING


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## Troyse22 (Sep 6, 2018)

Sweetcorn said:


> Sage light said Tsunade or Sakura(i forgot who) can punch Narutos rasenshuriken back at him



Lolwut


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## LostSelf (Sep 6, 2018)

I like these threads. Because all the time they prove how meaningless they are in front of the "Manda beating 8th Gated Gai" argument.


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## Buuhan (Sep 6, 2018)

LostSelf said:


> I like these threads. Because all the time they prove how meaningless they are in front of the "Manda beating 8th Gated Gai" argument.


No no oh my when did this happen?


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## LostSelf (Sep 6, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> No no oh my when did this happen?



A dark day, a very dark day. I remember it clearly. At first, it was a nice morning... I woke up happy, did everything one does after waking up and sat on the pc- Something told me not to but I shrugged it off and opened the page....
...
I saw it. "Orochimaru can beat Red Gai with Manda tanking all his hits." This part was there in the middle of a huge wall of text. I never dare to read wall of texts but that time I did. Not sure why.

I... I just can't. It's too hard for me. I was never the same... Never...


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## Buuhan (Sep 6, 2018)

LostSelf said:


> A dark day, a very dark day. I remember it clearly. At first, it was a nice morning... I woke up happy, did everything one does after waking up and sat on the pc- Something told me not to but I shrugged it off and opened the page....
> ...
> I saw it. "Orochimaru can beat Red Gai with Manda tanking all his hits." This part was there in the middle of a huge wall of text. I never dare to read wall of texts but that time I did. Not sure why.
> 
> I... I just can't. It's too hard for me. I was never the same... Never...


The pinnacle has been reached


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 6, 2018)

LostSelf said:


> A dark day, a very dark day. I remember it clearly. At first, it was a nice morning... I woke up happy, did everything one does after waking up and sat on the pc- Something told me not to but I shrugged it off and opened the page....
> ...
> I saw it. "Orochimaru can beat Red Gai with Manda tanking all his hits." This part was there in the middle of a huge wall of text. I never dare to read wall of texts but that time I did. Not sure why.
> 
> I... I just can't. It's too hard for me. I was never the same... Never...


It takes some serious will power to come back to forum after witnessing that. And I thought future trunks had it rough.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 7, 2018)

Hussain said:


> 1- itachi defeating Oro means he defeats Jman & Tsunade low difficult. However, Minato/Tobirama trashing Obito/Izuna does not
> mean they can trash itachi as easily.
> 
> 2- Itachi is a lier. Any statement he said against himself (he is weaker than Jman) is a lie, if he said he is a failure, he is modest which makes him more perfect. If however, he said something that benefits him, then it's the ultimate truth (you can't break Tsukuyomi).  With that being said, Kabuto's statement (who is a bigger lier) about itachi/Hashirama are not lies because we don't have anything against those 2 characters.
> ...


You forgot the " Greater good of Konoha Ninja no jutsu" by Itachi... And now as we are on topic let me add another gem.
Itachi actually genjutsu'd that one woman when he went to capture Naruto and so that she'd make jiraiya come back just in time to save Naruto's legs from Kisame... His whole plan hinged on Jiraiya coming and saving Naruto.
And also, he could sense Gai coming and hence told Kisame to kill Asumas and kurenei so that Gai would kick him back anyways.
Now that's some shit no one can argue with without damaging themselves.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Sep 7, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> I wonder how many posters are going to be surprised.


If I was a mod I'd have trashed your account by now. Considering the amount of time you spend thinking about me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> If I was a mod I'd have trashed your account by now. Considering the amount of time you spend thinking about me.


Lmao...


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Sep 7, 2018)

Sweetcorn said:


> Sage light said Tsunade or Sakura(i forgot who) can punch Narutos rasenshuriken back at him
> 
> Speedyamell said Sakuras punch can ragdoll tailed beast
> 
> The Rasenshuriken one had me DYING


I said Sakura can. Of course this cannot be used practically in the battledome as they aren't the general consensus. Theoretically they can. If a 6 Tailed Kyuubi can deflect semi-intangible forces like ST then a tangible attack like FRS can be reflected. _*-snip-*_


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## Ishmael (Sep 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> If I was a mod I'd have trashed your account by now. Considering the amount of time you spend thinking about me.



I legit only have mentioned you in this thread, which isn't a good thing and this is my second post regarding you. BUT hey let you tell it I'm stalking you on the internet.


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## Santoryu (Sep 7, 2018)

Tri said:


> Most arguments for Kakashi have been so bad lately that Bonly is memeing in Kakashi threads again



How you've fallen


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> If I was a mod I'd have trashed your account by now. Considering the amount of time you spend thinking about me.



Coming from the guy who talks about me in random threads?


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 7, 2018)

I'm arguing with a new member and its hard because he doesn't know the general rules, English isn't his first language, and I believe he is getting confused about the different versions of Sasuke but he is positive that Sakura is lower than every version of Sasuke. He is kinda nice though.


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## Santoryu (Sep 7, 2018)

As I'm going to be incredibly busy later this month, I would like to nominate the following remembers for *MOTM* in advance. Feel free to quote this post later.

1. NamesClassified: Respectful, consistent, and well formulated posts. Has been the standout poster as of late.

2. CrimsonFlame: Great pro Kakashi posts. He also has a very good grasp of techniques.

3. Sage Light: Detailed.

4. Architect: Lot of manga scans

5. Dawizviz: Tenacious and elaborative

6. FlamingRain: Makes a genuine effort to at least communicate with opposing posters. Well detailed


There are many other posters I'd like include such as @Gifted/ @Buuhan who have been great this month, but we're limited to 6 choices.


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 7, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> As I'm going to be incredibly busy later this month, I would like to nominate the following remembers for *MOTM* in advance. Feel free to quote this post later.
> 
> 1. NamesClassified: Respectful, consistent, and well formulated posts. Has been the standout poster as of late.
> 
> ...


Am I that horrible? OoOh the pain.....


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## Santoryu (Sep 7, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Am I that horrible? OoOh the pain.....



I like your avatar/sig


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## Sweetcor (Sep 7, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm arguing with a new member and its hard because he doesn't know the general rules, English isn't his first language, and I believe he is getting confused about the different versions of Sasuke but he is positive that Sakura is lower than every version of Sasuke. He is kinda nice though.


I'm not sure why but you seem so kind hearted 


Santoryu said:


> As I'm going to be incredibly busy later this month, I would like to nominate the following remembers for *MOTM* in advance. Feel free to quote this post later.
> 
> 1. NamesClassified: Respectful, consistent, and well formulated posts. Has been the standout poster as of late.
> 
> ...



What is MOTM?


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 7, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> I like your avatar/sig


Thanks, Wonder Hoe is BAE


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 7, 2018)

Sweetcorn said:


> I'm not sure why but you seem so kind hearted


I try to be but I'm losing my patience and have 0 time for rudeness.


Sweetcorn said:


> What is MOTM?


Member of The Month


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## Sweetcor (Sep 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Bold is all you. And, when did I "twist" quotes? Huh? Or are you that much of a childish liar?





Sage light said:


> She's the strongest as revealed in the latest databook.





Sage light said:


> Here.


Then this is what you posted

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 7, 2018)

Sweetcorn said:


> Then this is what you posted


Well I agree with her catching up to them at that point before they received their final powerup however I don't believe she beats those versions if them.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 7, 2018)

New one. . Alive Minato is stronger than Hashirama now.


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Sep 7, 2018)

Kisame is stronger than both Nagato and Rinnegan Obito

Sound Four could beat Itachi without MS

BOS Sasuke could solo Hidan and Kakuzu

WA Sakura could defeat Tendo Pain

Itachi could solo the Sannin


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When do you engage in wild mental gymnastics, strawmanning and trying to twist manga quotes into your own meaning?
> 
> Well...
> 
> ...


Are we forgetting the instances where itachi rigged events so that Jiraiya Saved Naruto and Gai saves Kakashi from Kisame so that Itachi can hide his identity. Classic.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Are we forgetting the instances where itachi rigged events so that Jiraiya Saved Naruto and Gai saves Kakashi from Kisame so that Itachi can hide his identity. Classic.



There's also Sasuke never awakened Amaterasu because Itachi gave it to him and that Itachi's Amaterasu seal is permanent.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There's also Sasuke never awakened Amaterasu because Itachi gave it to him and that Itachi's Amaterasu seal is permanent.


Lmao... This is an endless pit of fanboy-ism.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Sep 7, 2018)

Sweetcorn said:


> Then this is what you posted


That directly implies she's stronger than every other kunoichi. A Rikudo character being punched down is shown in the image as proof she keeps up with Naruto and Sasuke. How is that twisting if you had a shred of common sense? Do you need the author to spoonfeed you each and every implication in statements? If you can't grasp the Databooks; it's blatantly implied by Hashirama that she's stronger than his grand-daughter in one look in the Manga. Latter being the previously strongest Kunoichi as per Jiraiya's words. Learn how to read before attempting to mock others in your desperation to get ratings.


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## Serene Grace (Sep 7, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> As I'm going to be incredibly busy later this month, I would like to nominate the following remembers for *MOTM* in advance. Feel free to quote this post later.
> 
> 1. NamesClassified: Respectful, consistent, and well formulated posts. Has been the standout poster as of late.
> 
> ...


I wonder how MOTM worthy they would be to you if they weren't Kakashi fans


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## Sweetcor (Sep 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> That directly implies she's stronger than every other kunoichi. A Rikudo character being punched down is shown in the image as proof she keeps up with Naruto and Sasuke. How is that twisting if you had a shred of common sense? Do you need the author to spoonfeed you each and every implication in statements? If you can't grasp the Databooks; it's blatantly implied by Hashirama that she's stronger than his grand-daughter in one look in the Manga. Latter being the previously strongest Kunoichi as per Jiraiya's words. Learn how to read before attempting to mock others in your desperation to get ratings.


 





....cool story. They didn't reveal she's the strongest kunoichi and you twisted the quotes into what you wanted them to be.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


>


Dude didn't care about outliers.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 7, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I wonder how MOTM worthy they would be to you if they weren't Kakashi fans



His mind will change if there's a Kakashi vs Itachi thread.


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## Santoryu (Sep 7, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I wonder how MOTM worthy they would be to you if they weren't Kakashi fans



To my knowledge, Dawizviz, Sage Light, and NamesClassified are not Kakashi fans. And even if they were, it does not discredit the value of any well thought out posts they make.

Whenever I see someone bring fandom/bias accusing into a debate is when that person has lost by default. Unless you're a robot, you're biased.


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## Santoryu (Sep 7, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> To my knowledge, Dawizviz, Sage Light, and NamesClassified are not Kakashi fans. And even if they were, it dies not discredit the value of any well thought out posts they make.
> 
> Whenever I see someone bring fandom/bias accusing into a debate is when that person has lost by default. Unless you're a robot, you're biased.



I would rate this rebuttal "winner" if I could.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Sep 7, 2018)

Sweetcorn said:


> ....cool story. They didn't reveal she's the strongest kunoichi and you twisted the quotes into what you wanted them to be.


Nope. You couldn't comprehend the underlying meaning of the given passage because of your lack of comprehension skills. And you twisted them into your favor. Then you accuse others of twisting when you twisted the quotes into what you wanted them to be.


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## Serene Grace (Sep 7, 2018)

Oh yeh Susanooless Sasuke > Nagato at his fullest power is a new stupid


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## Serene Grace (Sep 7, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> To my knowledge, Dawizviz, Sage Light, and NamesClassified are not Kakashi fans. And even if they were, it does not discredit the value of any well thought out posts they make.
> 
> Whenever I see someone bring fandom/bias accusing into a debate is when that person has lost by default. Unless you're a robot, you're biased.


Was a joke madam

already mentioned 2 out of those four as some of the best posters here


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Sep 7, 2018)

Sweetcorn said:


> This is headcanon


No it isnt. Since you posted manga fact in an attempt to be funny.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> No it isnt. Since you posted manga fact in an attempt to be funny.



Manga facts like Sasuke never awakened Amaterasu because Itachi gave it to him.


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## Sweetcor (Sep 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> No it isnt. Since you posted manga fact in an attempt to be funny.


Idk what you're talking about but... 



...this is headcanon too


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I can't be the only one finding this funny.


I said it once before, he reads more than Kishimoto writes and wants us to read. We could have a couple of them around. No harm.


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## goombanthime (Sep 7, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame matching V2 Bee in physical strength happened on pane
> Read their fight my guy
> 
> When Kisame was actually getting serious and realized Bee wasn't some pushover we saw the dramatic shift in his showings


At least say that he can match him in his fused state (even tho he won because he absorbed his chakra and his better mobility underwater), because there no way B could have blown his chess open if he was equal to him.


Troyse22 said:


> But Gai in terms of speed, physical strength and CQC skill outclasses Jiraiya ten fold, especially when we saw him going toe to toe with Rinne Obito with no assistance, and actually matching him, even having the instinct to block his back with his nunchuku when Obito tried to blindside him with Gunbai
> 
> Plain and simple if Jiraiya doesn't start against Gai at a distance he'd get overwhelmed pretty easily and lose


Guy definitely outskill him in CQC, but saying he overpowers him in base is still a stretch considering he survived a fight against KC4 Naruto, who could nuke a forest.


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