# Nagato Vs EMS Sasuke



## Deer Lord (Dec 12, 2014)

Who is the true bottom of the top tier?

Location: Naruto & B vs Nagato & itachi
Distance: 30m
Knowledge: Reputation.
Mindset: IC
Conditions: Nagato is living and mobile with his restored chakra levels.
Sauce is pre bullshit-powerup and has no restrictions.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 12, 2014)

We don't have a _solid_ measure of Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke's capabilities without the aid of Naruto's chakra enhancements or Jugo lending him natural energy to utilize senjutsu, but it's a fair estimate to peg his Perfect Susanoo around Tailed Beast Sage Mode Naruto's level.

Why? Because with the Sage of Six Paths' gifts, both Naruto and Sasuke were toe-to-toe, equal in every sense of their word when their chakra constructs clashed. Take that away, and while Naruto still maintains his Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Mode state, Sasuke _only_ has Perfect Susanoo - *proving* the aforementioned equality.

This pretty much renders Sasuke immune to _all_ of Nagato's attacks - Planetary Devastation and his village-destroying Almighty Push included. On the other hand, Sasuke has a vast plethora from which to obliterate him - shockwaves from Perfect Susanoo's sword, Blaze Release-enhanced arrows (or just regular ones), I could go on.

But as it stands, Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke sits *firmly* at Madara's level (_prior to the attainment of the Rinnegan and Ten-Tails, of course_). Nagato is substantially below him.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

Probably Nagato.



> We don't have a solid measure of Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke's capabilities without the aid of Naruto's chakra enhancements or Jugo lending him natural energy to utilize senjutsu, but it's a fair estimate to peg his Perfect Susanoo around Tailed Beast Sage Mode Naruto's level.
> 
> Why? Because with the Sage of Six Paths' gifts, both Naruto and Sasuke were toe-to-toe, equal in every sense of their word when their chakra constructs clashed. Take that away, and while Naruto still maintains his Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Mode state, Sasuke only has Perfect Susanoo - proving the aforementioned equality.
> 
> ...



Do you have proof EMS Sasuke can create PS on daily basis on his own? He only covered Kurama's half with it, he never created it on his own before SoSP's gave him half of his power. Maybe Sasuke was able to make PS because he had aid from Kurama.

And how is he firmly on EMS Madara's level, when Madara has much more impressive feats than EMS Sasuke? 

Nagato still can counter anything EMS Sasuke can attack with because of his Preta Path. And Sasuke doesnt have much of an affencive, so a combination of ST and CB can be fatal for him.


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## Corax (Dec 12, 2014)

EMS Sauke has very bad feats. Kabuto destroyed him,Madara easily destroyed him and thats it. He fought against Jubito in tandem with Naruto,and frankly it is hard to tell how would ve he faired without Naruto s BSM help. Likely poorly. I ll say it end as simple as bansho-tennin out of Susano+ chakra rod. After all Madara needed only it to beat EMS Sasuke (though he used Rinbo instead of BT).


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 12, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Do you have proof EMS Sasuke can create PS on daily basis on his own? He only covered Kurama's half with it



That form is _Perfect Susanoo_, only further distributed around Kurama's chakra avatar.

Understand it this way. There is little doubt that Madara's iteration covering the whole of Kurama *was* indeed _Perfect Susanoo_ - for three reasons. One, the head encompassing Kurama's own looks highly similar to that of the actual construct. Two, the pentagonal jewel seen on Perfect Susanoo is also present. Third, Perfect Susanoo's reputable feat of slicing mountains with just the shockwave aftermath of a sword swing is replicated just as impressively when fighting with Kurama.

Sasuke's version coupled with Kurama's chakra avatar in Tailed Beast Sage Mode was essentially equated with Madara's, by Hashirama's own admission. It's the exact same technique as Madara's(I believe the Databook supports this as well), so the three reasons I listed above apply likewise towards Sasuke here. 

It's *still* Perfect Susanoo, but more _condensed_ because it's spread around a smaller form in Kurama/Naruto's _Tailed Beast Sage Mode_ avatar. 



> he never created it on his own before SoSP's gave him half of his power. Maybe Sasuke was able to make PS because *he had aid from Kurama.*



When did the bolded happen? Sasuke's chakra cloak granted on account of Naruto was destroyed when Obito slammed him and Naruto into the ground.



> And how is he firmly on EMS Madara's level, when Madara has much more impressive feats than EMS Sasuke?



As I said, logic dictates that _Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan_ Sasuke's *Perfect Susanoo* = _Tailed Beast Sage Mode_ Naruto. 

I have no problems placing Madara on the same tier, especially when Tailed Beast Sage Mode Naruto was stated, on frequent occasions, to rival Hashirama. Sasuke being on at least *comparable* terms with Madara is not a far-fetched statement to make.



> Nagato still can counter anything EMS Sasuke can attack with because of his Preta Path. And Sasuke doesnt have much of an affencive, so a combination of ST and CB can be fatal for him.



_Preta Path_ isn't going to help him when an enormous sword from _Perfect Susanoo_ swings his way. That technique isn't going to negate the physical force of a strike that obliterates mountains as an aftermath.

Sure, it negated the impact of 'Version Two' Killer Bee's Lariat, but scaling that to Perfect Susanoo is the very definition of no-limits fallacy.


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## Corax (Dec 12, 2014)

> Sure, it negated the impact of 'Version Two' Killer Bee's Lariat, but scaling that to Perfect Susanoo is the very definition of no-limits fallacy


Nagato s body negated the impact of V2. Preta cant do anything to taijutsu attacks. Nagato is just that durable (surprise). He activated preta only 2 panels after the impact occasions . Just for the lulz  occasions occasions .


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 12, 2014)

Corax said:


> Nagato s body negated the impact of V2. Preta cant do anything to taijutsu attacks. Nagato is just that durable (surprise). He activated preta only 2 panels after the impact  http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/598/9  .



Going to have to call that feat an outlier, seeing as Itachi's skeletal Susanoo, later, bifurcated his arm with just a hand chop. Which is incongruous with general Susanoo strength feats - including Madara's own Susanoo, which can't even knock out Kage with its attacks.

Let's not forget Hanzo ridding of his legs with just a bunch of explosive tags. Nagato's feat of shrugging off a Lariat from 'Version Two' Killer Bee is *completely* at odds with that.


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## Corax (Dec 12, 2014)

You cant compare Itachi s Susano hardness to other (Madara s, Sasuke s) indirectly. It saved him from Kirin,that destroyed a mountain. So obviously it is way harder than steel (Sasuke s for sure was,it was confirmed by Danzo). Anyway it has nothing to do with the topic. Kisame would ve been damaged by Susano chop too.


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## Deer Lord (Dec 12, 2014)

That might be due to the fact that he's a zombie.
They don't feel pain ya know

plus, that attack could have snapped every bone in his body for all we know
but it wouldn't matter as he absorbed B's chakra and regened all the damage as a result.


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## Corax (Dec 12, 2014)

Well I am not about the impact,I am about its results. Kisame together with samehada was completely obliterated, Nagato s ET body didn't lost even a single piece of paper/dirt (and they can be damaged,as we know,but they regenerate). If he had received the same amount of damage and regenerated it would ve been another story,but it he hadnt.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 12, 2014)

Corax said:


> You cant compare Itachi s Susano hardness to other (Madara s, Sasuke s) indirectly. It saved him from Kirin,that destroyed a mountain. So obviously it is way harder than steel (Sasuke s for sure was,it was confirmed by Danzo). Anyway it has nothing to do with the topic. Kisame would ve been damaged by Susano chop too.



Er...why can't we compare it to Madara or Sasuke's? Madara's is *for sure* stronger than Itachi's, yet by *your* logic it's _considerably_ weaker since the latter dealt severe damage to Nagato, who tanked (your words) Killer Bee's Lariat - whereas Madara couldn't even injure the Kage with his Susanoo.

Hanzo's feat with the explosive tags already contradicts the notion that an alive Nagato is durable enough to survive a physical blow from a 'Version Two' Jinchuriki.

Deer Lord's point about being a zombie is *very* valid, as well. Minato took Jinchuriki Madara's kick to the chest and didn't exactly get ripped apart as he should have.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

> That form is Perfect Susanoo, only further distributed around Kurama's chakra avatar.
> 
> Understand it this way. There is little doubt that Madara's iteration covering the whole of Kurama was indeed Perfect Susanoo - for three reasons. One, the head encompassing Kurama's own looks highly similar to that of the actual construct. Two, the pentagonal jewel seen on Perfect Susanoo is also present. Third, Perfect Susanoo's reputable feat of slicing mountains with just the shockwave aftermath of a sword swing is replicated just as impressively when fighting with Kurama.
> 
> ...



It seems you misuderstood me. It was a Perfect Susanoo. And Sasuke covered Kurama with it. But can he create a Perfect Susanoo on daily basis? Maybe he created PS and covered Kurama with it because Kurama gave him some chakra to do that. He never created a sole Perfect Susanoo.



> When did the bolded happen? Sasuke's chakra cloak granted on account of Naruto was destroyed when Obito slammed him and Naruto into the ground.



Maybe Kurama gave him chakra in a similar way to how he gave it to Kakashi. Its strange that EMS Sasuke never created PS before, although there was a World War,  and than, suddenly, he decided to cover Kurama with it. 



> As I said, logic dictates that Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo = Tailed Beast Sage Mode Naruto.
> 
> I have no problems placing Madara on the same tier, especially when Tailed Beast Sage Mode Naruto was stated, on frequent occasions, to rival Hashirama. Sasuke being on at least comparable terms with Madara is not a far-fetched statement to make.



Sasuke, at that moment, wasnt Naruto's equal. And in his last fight with Naruto, he managed to fight with him on par only because he used his Perfect Susanoo as a Gedo Mazo statue and absorbed Tailed Beasts in it. 

Madara is faster, stronger, has bigger chakra reserves, is more experienced, and his Perfect Susanoo has more feats than EMS Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo. If Sasuke could create it on daily basis at all.



> Preta Path isn't going to help him when an enormous sword from Perfect Susanoo swings his way. That technique isn't going to negate the physical force of a strike that obliterates mountains as an aftermath.
> 
> Sure, it negated the impact of 'Version Two' Killer Bee's Lariat, but scaling that to Perfect Susanoo is the very definition of no-limits fallacy.



I highly doubt Sasuke can create Perfect Susanoo on daily basis, like Madara. And most of other Sasuke's abilities are countered by Rinnegan.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 12, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> It seems you misuderstood me. It was a Perfect Susanoo. And Sasuke covered Kurama with it. But can he create a Perfect Susanoo on daily basis?



... why not?

You already admitted that *it is* Perfect Susanoo, so why would it be any _different_ from forming the actual thing?



> Maybe he created PS and covered Kurama with it because Kurama gave him some chakra to do that. He never created a sole Perfect Susanoo.



Yeah, you're going to have to prove Kurama helped him construct that Perfect Susanoo armor, since nowhere does it show Sasuke needed help to do it.



> Maybe Kurama gave him chakra in a similar way to how he gave it to Kakashi. Its strange that EMS Sasuke never created PS before, although there was a World War,  and than, suddenly, he decided to cover Kurama with it.



No weirder than Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto being only able to muster a regular Wind Style: Rasenshuriken to assist in destroying Planetary Devastation, but later in the exact same day throwing an infinitely stronger projectile in Wind Style: Massive Rasenshuriken to assist in hurting the Ten-Tails.

No weirder than Sage Naruto resorting to a desperate tactic to defeat the Third Raikage when he supposedly could have just utilized a bigger Rasenshuriken just as he did against Madara.

As the manga's proved consistently throughout, Sasuke and Naruto are able to employ much stronger iterations of their techniques on the fly, since they improve by leaps and bounds even as they're fighting.



> Sasuke, at that moment, wasnt Naruto's equal. And in his last fight with Naruto, he managed to fight with him on par only because he used his Perfect Susanoo as a Gedo Mazo statue and absorbed Tailed Beasts in it.



You're misunderstanding me. When it comes to the *physical* side of things, Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo was going head-to-head with Naruto's Tailed Beast Sage Mode with neither actually gaining an advantage. That's equality at its clearest.

Check the first post I made in this thread. Lots of evidence for that claim there.



> Madara is faster, stronger, has bigger chakra reserves, is more experienced, and his Perfect Susanoo has more feats than EMS Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo. If Sasuke could create it on daily basis at all.





ATastyMuffin said:


> Why? Because with the Sage of Six Paths' gifts, both Naruto and Sasuke were toe-to-toe, equal in every sense of their word when their chakra constructs clashed. Take that away, and while Naruto still maintains his Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Mode state, Sasuke _only_ has Perfect Susanoo - *proving* the aforementioned equality.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

> You're misunderstanding me. When it comes to the physical side of things, Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo was going head-to-head with Naruto's Tailed Beast Sage Mode with neither actually gaining an advantage. That's equality at its clearest.
> 
> Check the first post I made in this thread. Lots of evidence for that claim there.



Well, Naruto was trying to redeem him. naruto was holding back while Sasuke was all out since he wanted to kill Naruto. I think if Naruto was all out, he would have destroyed it. 



> Why? Because with the Sage of Six Paths' gifts, both Naruto and Sasuke were toe-to-toe, equal in every sense of their word when their chakra constructs clashed. Take that away, and while Naruto still maintains his Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Mode state, Sasuke only has Perfect Susanoo - proving the aforementioned equality.



Again - Naruto was holding himself back. He wasnt all out, while Sasuke was all out. And even with Tailed beasts chakra, Sasuke was unable to beat him. Naruto is above Sasuke. If Naruto wanted to kill Sasuke, he would have destroyed his Perfect Susanoo and killed him. 

But ok, i agree EMS Sasuke could create PS. It doesnt change the fact EMS Madara is above EMS Sasuke. They arent equal. Madara is like Sasuke, but better. 

And on the topic - yeah, it seems EMS Sasuke is above Nagato after all, because of his PS.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 12, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, Naruto was trying to redeem him. naruto was holding back while Sasuke was all out since he wanted to kill Naruto. I think if Naruto was all out, he would have destroyed it.



Sasuke claimed that Naruto was 'holding back' because he's seen the dude perform *much better* when it comes to general combat - not just physical attacks. _Massive Rasengan, Rasenshuriken, Tailed Beast Bombs_ - at that point in the fight, Naruto hadn't utilized _any_ of his true arsenal, hence why Sasuke called him out for it.

That doesn't change the fact that *speed, strength*, and *durability*-wise, Perfect Susanoo and Naruto's senjutsu-enhanced Tailed Beast Mode avatar were clearly depicted to be equals.



> Again - Naruto was holding himself back. He wasnt all out, while Sasuke was all out. And even with Tailed beasts chakra, Sasuke was unable to beat him. Naruto is above Sasuke. If Naruto wanted to kill Sasuke, he would have destroyed his Perfect Susanoo and killed him.



Read above. I'm only talking about their equality pertaining specifically and only towards hand-to-hand combat with their chakra constructs.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

> Sasuke claimed that Naruto was 'holding back' because he's seen the dude perform much better when it comes to general combat - not just physical attacks. Massive Rasengan, Rasenshuriken, Tailed Beast Bombs - at that point in the fight, Naruto hadn't utilized any of his true arsenal, hence why Sasuke called him out for it.
> 
> That doesn't change the fact that speed, strength, and durability-wise, Perfect Susanoo and Naruto's senjutsu-enhanced Tailed Beast Mode avatar were clearly depicted to be equals.



Thats because Naruto was on the defencive all the time. He himself stated he didnt want to fight Sasuke, who was clearly all-out to kill Naruto. 

If Naruto was all out, he would have destroyed Perfect Susanoo. I think his Kurama's avatar was superior to Sasuke's. Even with all tailed beasts chakra, Sasuke's Susanoo wasnt superior to Naruto's Bijuu Avatar.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 12, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Thats because *Naruto was on the defencive all the time*. He himself stated he didnt want to fight Sasuke, who was clearly all-out to kill Naruto.



How do you figure that, sport?

This doesn't look like a defensive maneuver. Nor does this instance, where it appears Naruto attempted to strike Perfect Susanoo, but was blocked by the sword's hilt. Finally, Naruto's expression here doesn't imply in the least that he was deflecting or guarding from his adversary's attacks - it looks like he's on the *offensive*.



> If Naruto was all out, *he would have destroyed Perfect Susanoo*. I think his Kurama's avatar was superior to Sasuke's.



Then why didn't he? Punching apart his Susanoo wouldn't have killed Sasuke - on the other hand, using something like a _Tailed Beast Bomb_ almost would certainly have. Naruto only held back in terms of *chakra-based techniques*, not hand-to-hand combat.



> Even with all tailed beasts chakra, Sasuke's Susanoo wasnt superior to Naruto's Bijuu Avatar.



Pertaining strictly to physicality, yes it was. It took four clones just to tango with it.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

> How do you figure that, sport?
> 
> This doesn't look like a defensive maneuver. Nor does this instance, where it appears Naruto attempted to strike Perfect Susanoo, but was blocked by the sword's hilt. Finally, Naruto's expression here doesn't imply in the least that he was deflecting or guarding from his adversary's attacks - it looks like he's on the offensive.



It realy doesnt matter if he was on offencive or defencive - he was still not all out. he was holding back while Sasuke was all out. And even when Sasuke used his Susanoo as Gedo Mazo for tailed beasts, he still couldnt beat Naruto, who was the same SoSP Naruto, without any side power up, like Sasuke with Tailed Beasts.



> Then why didn't he? Punching apart his Susanoo wouldn't have killed Sasuke - on the other hand, using something like a Tailed Beast Bomb almost would certainly have. Naruto only held back in terms of chakra-based techniques, not hand-to-hand combat.



Naruto was overall holding back since he wanted to redeem Sasuke. I dont think he would have been all out in close combat.



> Pertaining strictly to physicality, yes it was. It took four clones just to tango with it.



Yeah, clones that were not as strong as the original.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 12, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> It realy doesnt matter if he was on offencive or defencive - he was still not all out. he was holding back while Sasuke was all out. And even when Sasuke used his Susanoo as Gedo Mazo for tailed beasts, he still couldnt beat Naruto, who was the same SoSP Naruto, without any side power up, like Sasuke with Tailed Beasts.



Do you even understand what I was purporting to begin with?

I feel like we're running in circles based off of your misunderstanding. I'm of the opinion that Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo is equal to Naruto's Tailed Beast Sage Mode in hand-to-hand combat only. I am *fully* aware that in their final fight, Naruto's avatar could have easily defeated his had not been for the forced chakra donation on part of the captured Tailed Beasts. 

But every panel of them fighting in close-quarters couldn't have made it any clearer that they were at least equal in that regard.

Your last sentence particularly irks me, stop bringing up rhetoric I already know and is entirely irrelevant to our debate.



> Naruto was overall holding back since he wanted to redeem Sasuke. I dont think he would have been all out in close combat.



Why not? I'll repeat to you: physical strikes to beat Susanoo wouldn't have killed Sasuke; killing Sasuke was the *only* thing keeping Naruto from going all-out. There isn't a single reason he wouldn't have used his full strength in close combat.



> Yeah, clones that were not as strong as the original.



Shadow Clones are *equal* to the original in physicality and chakra amount. The only clone-related technique that has the clones drastically inferior to the originator is the Wood Clone technique.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2014)

Muffin, I wouldn't use Rinnegan Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o feats to say his EMS version would be equal to Naruto's Biju Sage Mode, much less his Biju Mode given their feats. Even Rinnegan Sasuke alluded to Naruto's constant holding back during those clashes, making it seem that Naruto was stronger than him construct to construct.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 12, 2014)

Naruto had to use 2 of his most powerful jutsus just to counter Sasuke's Indra's Arrow. Yeah, Naruto was certainly holding back.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> Naruto had to use 2 of his most powerful jutsus just to counter Sasuke's Indra's Arrow. Yeah, Naruto was certainly holding back.


You do realize that was _after_ Sasuke stole the power of the nine biju and put it into his own Susano'o right? And Naruto was only meaning to counter Sasuke's Indra Arrow, not _beat_ it. If he wanted to, he could have made a Cho Bijudama Rasenshuriken since guess what: Wind beats Lightning in the manga.

Naruto was constantly, consistently holding back in the final battle, and he was on low chakra from the war to boot. Yet each and every time, he was portrayed as Sasuke's superior and in the end, even in their final clash...Naruto decisively beat Sasuke. He was _conscious_ and waited for Sasuke to wake up after their final clash.

If Naruto was fresh, the battle would have gone VERY differently. Manga made it quite clear Naruto was stronger, no ifs, ans, or buts about it.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 12, 2014)

^ That was to point out that Naruto didn't hold back.

 I'm aware without Bijuu, Naruto is stronger, but again, the fight's legit considering controlling the bijuu is part of Sasuke's kekkai genkai (spelling?) that was further enhanced by the Rinnegan. It's fair game. Might as well say that Naruto is a lot weaker than Sasuke without the help of a Bijuu constantly replenishing his chakra while Sasuke didn't have any of that at all.

 And while Naruto was awake before Sasuke was, Sasuke also claimed Naruto couldn't move his body and Naruto never denied that, so .......... it was a tie whether Sasuke used the Bijuu's power or not.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ That was to point out that Naruto didn't hold back.
> 
> I'm aware without Bijuu, Naruto is stronger, but again, the fight's legit considering controlling the bijuu is part of Sasuke's kekkai genkai (spelling?) that was further enhanced by the Rinnegan. It's fair game. Might as well say that Naruto is a lot weaker than Sasuke without the help of a Bijuu constantly replenishing his chakra while Sasuke didn't have any of that at all.
> 
> And while Naruto was awake before Sasuke was, Sasuke also claimed Naruto couldn't move his body and Naruto never denied that, so .......... it was a tie whether Sasuke used the Bijuu's power or not.


Sasuke was clearly defeated. Naruto won flat out and Sasuke admitted it. Naruto stayed conscious while Sasuke blacked out. Naruto countered everything without killing intent. Naruto was shown as the stronger and superior shinobi. The fact Sasuke had to get a power up mid-battle while Naruto was exhausted shows the gap between their powers.

If it was a true tie? Naruto and Sasuke would have both been unconscious at the end of the clash.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke was clearly defeated. Naruto won flat out and Sasuke admitted it. Naruto stayed conscious while Sasuke blacked out. Naruto countered everything without killing intent. Naruto was shown as the stronger and superior shinobi. The fact Sasuke had to get a power up mid-battle while Naruto was exhausted shows the gap between their powers.
> 
> If it was a true tie? Naruto and Sasuke would have both been unconscious at the end of the clash.



 Yes because taking control of the Bijuu doesn't take some degree of chakra as well as using his chakra against Kaguya as well.

 Naruto didn't counter everything. Sasuke was lucky as hell Naruto was too fatigued to land a Rasengan when he ended up tripping which just shows that Naruto was being serious. I honestly don't care about this argument though. Kishi made it clear that it was a tie and Sasuke admitted defeat as he didn't attain his goal of killing Naruto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yes because taking control of the Bijuu doesn't take some degree of chakra as well as using his chakra against Kaguya as well.


Sasuke was never said to be on low chakra. Naruto _was_, manga flat out said Naruto was low due to FIGHTING THE ENTIRE WAR. Against Madara and Kaguya, Sasuke barely did ANYTHING. 

Are you serious in doubting what the manga said?


> Naruto didn't counter everything.


Ever since the battle started, Naruto was countering everything Sasuke threw at him while staying at the complete defensive.


> Sasuke was lucky as hell Naruto was too fatigued to land a Rasengan when he ended up tripping which just shows that Naruto was being serious.


Sasuke was lucky Naruto wasn't at full power when the fight began.


> I honestly don't care about this argument though. Kishi made it clear that it was a tie and Sasuke admitted defeat as he didn't attain his goal of killing Naruto.


Kishimoto made it clear Naruto won. Naruto flat out defeated Sasuke in everything. Sasuke admitted he lost.

There was no tie. If you believe so you really need to reread the fight and see the handicaps Naruto had throughout the entire thing.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

> Shadow Clones are equal to the original in physicality and chakra amount. The only clone-related technique that has the clones drastically inferior to the originator is the Wood Clone technique.



Yeah, but the chakra is lowered because you need it to use that technique to give it to clones.



> Do you even understand what I was purporting to begin with?
> 
> I feel like we're running in circles based off of your misunderstanding. I'm of the opinion that Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo is equal to Naruto's Tailed Beast Sage Mode in hand-to-hand combat only. I am fully aware that in their final fight, Naruto's avatar could have easily defeated his had not been for the forced chakra donation on part of the captured Tailed Beasts.
> 
> ...



Ok, in hand-to-hand - maybe. But overall, Naruto's Kurama avatar was more powerful.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Er...why can't we compare it to Madara or Sasuke's? Madara's is *for sure* stronger than Itachi's, yet by *your* logic it's _considerably_ weaker since the latter dealt severe damage to Nagato, who tanked (your words) Killer Bee's Lariat - whereas Madara couldn't even injure the Kage with his Susanoo.
> 
> Hanzo's feat with the explosive tags already contradicts the notion that an alive Nagato is durable enough to survive a physical blow from a 'Version Two' Jinchuriki.
> 
> Deer Lord's point about being a zombie is *very* valid, as well. Minato took Jinchuriki Madara's kick to the chest and didn't exactly get ripped apart as he should have.


Because Madara s has no such durability feats. It was destroyed by Tsunade s punch,which hardly packs the same power as Kirin (as she for sure cant obliterate mountain in one hit). Strictly by feats it is no where near as durable as Itachi s. And Hanzo s feat contradicts nothing. Hidan was dismembered by the same amount of explosive tags,while Nagato only burned. Madara has no strength feats,he even was overpowered by RSM Naruto Naruto's expression here (not even in his chakra cloak mode). So all we can say is that he is physically weaker than cloak less RSM Naruto (and way weaker than RSM Naruto in chakra cloak). No over comparison can be made,as he had only 3 fights, in which only in 1 he had a strength contest. Also ET doesnt make ninja immune to taijutsu damage,Tsunade punched a hole in ET Madara s body. That was just a very poor J Madara strength feat.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> Because Madara s has no such durability feats. It was destroyed by Tsunade s punch,which hardly packs the same power as Kirin (as she for sure cant obliterate mountain in one hit). Strictly by feats it is no where near as durable as Itachi s. And Hanzo s feat contradicts nothing. Hidan was dismembered by the same amount of explosive tags,while Nagato only burned. Madara has no strength feats,he even was overpowered by RSM Naruto (not even in his chakra cloak mode). So all we can say is that he is physically weaker than cloak less RSM Naruto (and way weaker than RSM Naruto in chakra cloak).


Itachi's has durability feats? It failed to block Kirin. Kirin blew it to smithereens. It either reached its highest level and failed (most likely) or only got to the complete stage and failed. Itachi's Susano'o has NEVER, EVER been tested Corax. Madara's is superior to Itachi's based on two things: his is powered by the EMS/Rinnegan, and he had Indra's chakra. Itachi lacked both.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

It didn't fail to block Kirin,because Itachi survived the attack. If it did he would be dead. It absorbed the force of Kirin and saved him.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> It didn't fail to block Kirin,because Itachi survived the attack. If it did he would be dead. It absorbed the force of Kirin and saved him.


If it blocked Kirin, it would have _been standing afterwards_ Corax. Instead Itachi had to completely reform it. If it had blocked the attack, like we've seen every other Susano'o block an attack, it would have been standing afterwards and wouldn't need to be reformed. Instead, it was blown apart and Itachi had to reform it.

Itachi only survived since the force was lessened, but his defense still had failed to block it completely. He got burned, his face got messed up, and his cloak had been incinerated.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

This is still far more impressive durability wise than being shattered by Tsunade s punch.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> This is still far more impressive durability wise than being shattered by Tsunade s punch.


Its not even a durability feat Corax-Itachi only survived since the force was lessened, his Susano'o _still failed to completely protect him._ Tsunade busts through Madara's Susano'o ribcage-she would do the same to Sasuke's and Itachi's too.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

No she busted V3 Susano at least Naruto's expression here. Itachi s lessened the mountain shattering force to a harmless lvl.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> No she busted V3 Susano at least Naruto's expression here. Itachi s lessened the mountain shattering force to a harmless lvl.


She didn't bust through it, she knocked it to the ground. There's a difference Corax.

And it wasn't a harmless level, it was a SURVIVABLE level. Itachi was seriously messed up from the impact.

Not to mention Madara's has a feat...of surviving Tenpenchii with no damage. Nothing short of a Bijudama or the power of all nine biju can destroy Madara's Susano'o.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

In anime she did. In manga it isnt clear,but the same Suasano is lying on the ground in next panel,so it was seriously damaged and couldn't stand with no damage. . Everyone in KN0 cloak survived tenpenchi....


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> In anime she did. In manga it isnt clear,but the same Suasano is lying on the ground in next panel,so it was seriously damaged and couldn't stand with no damage. . Everyone in KN0 cloak survived tenpenchi....


The cloak Naruto gave the army just is as durable as the Full Body Susano'o Madara manifests, Corax. Tenpenchii created a crater 200 kilometers wide and Kirin level lightning bolts rained down on everything, its a technique the fucking Ten-Tails made.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

You know that it is an outlier. KN0 can be pierced by chidori. No way it can protect from Kirin. Tenpenchi just has a huge AOE,it isn't a concentrated lighting bolt.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> You know that it is an outlier. KN0 can be pierced by chidori. No way it can protect from Kirin.


That was KN1, not KN0 Corax. Not to mention that the chakra of Naruto's Version 1 shrouds are strong enough to deflect Amaterasu, Corax.

Its not an outlier.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

Amaterasu has no piercing power. Differecne between chidori and Kirin is astronomical. No way lesser cloak versions can stop it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> Amaterasu has no piercing power. Differecne between chidori and Kirin is astronomical. No way lesser cloak versions can stop it.


Chidori never, ever pierced a Version 1 Cloak Corax. And given how Version 1 cloaks can survive Tenpenchii and seas of flames Madara and Obito could make, Chidori and Kirin wouldn't do a damn thing to those that Naruto passed out.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

So now Kirin cant break KN1 cloak...ok.


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## klutchii (Dec 13, 2014)

If sasuke gets perfect susanoo he wins


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## ARGUS (Dec 13, 2014)

Sasukes PS being *depicted* on par with BSM Narutos avatar, doesnt mean that its *actually *on par with it, 
when even BM narutos avatar is well above EMS Madaras PS, let alone EMS Sasukes PS

 - Ability to vaporise Mountains >>> Cutting its tops (and even that is absolute max for sasuke), and narutos TBB matched not 1, but 5 bijuus in terms of power, meaning that the offense of naruto is well well above PS

 - Ability to tank the juubi beam which pooped on 9 TBB, 5 of which involved narutos own TBB, puts narutos avatar well above Madaras PS in durability as well, when madaras PS was busted by a chojo kobetsu that lost over 90% of its arms, after tanking 11 PS-infused TBB,


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## Arles Celes (Dec 13, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Sasukes PS being *depicted* on par with BSM Narutos avatar, doesnt mean that its *actually *on par with it,
> when even BM narutos avatar is well above EMS Madaras PS, let alone EMS Sasukes PS
> 
> - Ability to vaporise Mountains >>> Cutting its tops (and even that is absolute max for sasuke), and narutos TBB matched not 1, but 5 bijuus in terms of power, meaning that the offense of naruto is well well above PS
> ...



Actually it is cutting a mountain in half and not just its top. Other than that its a different ability to blow stuff or cut stuff.

We know that PS users can use jutsus with PS like Madara did with meteors or Sasuke with chidori, chidori senbon or later Indra's arrow. Granted those last two came after an extreme power up but so was Naruto able to match them after an extreme power up of his own. In any case jutsus used through PS possess much greater power than those regular slashes which can cut multiple mountains in a single slash.

As for PS tanking power it iwasn't extensively explored. We saw Madara's not fully stabilized PS blocking easily a bijuudama from 100% Kurama which was pushed into it by Mokujin. Then either Madara created another PS or it emerged from that explosion with no signs of damage. When clashing their avatars with chidori and bijuudama Naruto's and Sasuke''s mechas were similarly damaged from the explosion. Obito destroyed a BSM avatar and a CS powered V3 Susanoo with gudoudama arms. Kaguya destroyed PS twice...but she is Kaguya.

Anyway if Sasuke got PS then he wins as long as Nagato cannot absorb it or is killed(or prevented from approaching) before he can absorb it. Maybe huge chakra avatars are impossible to absorb as Kaguya never tried to so or maybe it was PIS.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> So now Kirin cant break KN1 cloak...ok.


If they're the KN1 cloaks distributed by BM/BSM Naruto? Yeah, given what they've already tanked Kirin can't get through.


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## RedChidori (Dec 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> We don't have a _solid_ measure of Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke's capabilities without the aid of Naruto's chakra enhancements or Jugo lending him natural energy to utilize senjutsu, but it's a fair estimate to peg his Perfect Susanoo around Tailed Beast Sage Mode Naruto's level.
> 
> Why? Because with the Sage of Six Paths' gifts, both Naruto and Sasuke were toe-to-toe, equal in every sense of their word when their chakra constructs clashed. Take that away, and while Naruto still maintains his Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Mode state, Sasuke _only_ has Perfect Susanoo - *proving* the aforementioned equality.
> 
> ...



I agree with Muffin .


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If they're the KN1 cloaks distributed by BM/BSM Naruto? Yeah, given what they've already tanked Kirin can't get through.



 So suddenly KN1 Cloaks can block an attack that blew Itachi's V4 Susanoo into smithereens?

 I'm so done with this thread.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> So suddenly KN1 Cloaks can block an attack that blew Itachi's V4 Susanoo into smithereens?
> 
> I'm so done with this thread.


Given that's what they were shown able to do on screen, YES. The chakra cloaks Naruto gave to the Alliance were strong enough to block Tenpenchii, given the same durability as Madara's Full Body Susano'o.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Maybe huge chakra avatars are impossible to absorb as Kaguya never tried to so or maybe it was PIS.


She absorbed it here Blaze Release-enhanced arrows Blaze Release-enhanced arrows . Though it is a bit hard to tell did she use that white aura around her (page 17) to blow it away,or to partially absorb it, or may be just any Susano dissipates in that manner then it is heavily damaged. Anyway she later absorbed 9 rasen-shurikens infused with RSM chakra and biju powers,they should contain way more chakra than Sasuke s PS. Actually PS shouldn't has that much chakra in it. EMS Sasuke could use it multiple times (if it was PS),this logically means that it has only a fragment of his  slightly above average chakra (3.5  in DB3), otherwise he would die of chakra exhaustion if he uses more chakra for jutsu than he has. Not sure about Ricudo Sasuke,but logically he had less chakra than Ricudo Mode Naruto.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given that's what they were shown able to do on screen, YES. The chakra cloaks Naruto gave to the Alliance were strong enough to block Tenpenchii, given the same durability as * Madara's Full Body Susano'o. *



 That doesn't make any sense at all. A measly V1 Cloak is not going to have as much durability as Madara's Full Body Susano that had everyone comment on how overwhelming it was when used against Hashirama. 

 Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 13, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> That doesn't make any sense at all. A measly V1 Cloak is not going to have as much durability as Madara's Full Body Susano that had everyone comment on how overwhelming it was when used against Hashirama.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all.


...Full Body Susano'o is the term for when Susano'o gets skin. Also known as Complete Susano'o. You're confusing it was Perfect Susano'o.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...Full Body Susano'o is the term for when Susano'o gets skin. Also known as Complete Susano'o. You're confusing it was Perfect Susano'o.



 *Sigh* back to reading the manga for me.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 14, 2014)

Time for simple math.



ARGUS said:


> Sasukes PS being *depicted* on par with BSM Narutos avatar, doesnt mean that its *actually *on par with it,
> when even BM narutos avatar is well above EMS Madaras PS, let alone EMS Sasukes PS



Firepower wise? No, PS is not on par with BSM Naruto's Avatar. Speed and strength wise? And durability wise? Yes, it is.

Rikudo Naruto's Kurama Avatar=BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar+Half of Hagoromo's Power.

Rinnegan Sasuke's Susanoo=EMS Sasuke+Half of Hagoromo's Power.

Rinnegan Sasuke's Susanoo=BSM Naruto's Avatar.when it comes to speed, strength, and durability.  That much is already a manga fact.

Subtract Hagoromo's boost from both Naruto and Sasuke's Avatars, and you come to the obvious conclusion that EMS Sasuke's Susanoo is just as durable as Naruto's Sage Kurama Avatar. Just as physically powerful as it, and just as fast as it.

 -





> Ability to vaporise Mountains >>> Cutting its tops (and even that is absolute max for sasuke), and narutos TBB matched not 1, but 5 bijuus in terms of power, meaning that the offense of naruto is well well above PS




Yup.

[QUOTE - Ability to tank the juubi beam which pooped on 9 TBB, 5 of which involved narutos own TBB, puts narutos avatar well above Madaras PS in durability as well, when madaras PS was busted by a chojo kobetsu that lost over 90% of its arms, after tanking 11 PS-infused TBB,[/QUOTE]

Nope.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 14, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given that's what they were shown able to do on screen, YES. The chakra cloaks Naruto gave to the Alliance were strong enough to block Tenpenchii, given the same durability as Madara's Full Body Susano'o.



Uh, no. Them being able to block the same attack doesn't mean they are equal in durability. PS can block Tenpenchii just as effectively as the cloaks did. Is PS as durble as the Cloaks? Nope.


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## ARGUS (Dec 15, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Time for simple math.
> 
> Firepower wise? No, PS is not on par with BSM Naruto's Avatar. Speed and strength wise? And durability wise? Yes, it is.
> 
> ...


Agreed 


> Subtract Hagoromo's boost from both Naruto and Sasuke's Avatars, and you come to the obvious conclusion that EMS Sasuke's Susanoo is just as *durable* as Naruto's Sage Kurama Avatar. Just as physically powerful as it, and just as fast as it.


Feats really disagree with this, only with the durability that is, 
PS was busted by a Chojo Kobetsu that lost nearly all of its hands, 

whereas the BM avatar tanked the juubi beam that shat on 9 TBB, where 5 of the TBB were from the avatar, when 1 TBB from the avatar was strong enough to match 5 bijuus, 
and this is the same beam that has all of its power focused on one point, and is alot more potent and concentrated than a weakened chojo kobetsu, 

with that being said, we get to the obvious conclusion that the BM kurama avatar is more durable than PS, 
unless you think that the Juubi beam is weaker than Chojo Kobetsu which lost over 90% of its arms



> Nope.


yes


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## Zef (Dec 15, 2014)

So....what stops Genjutsu GG?


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 15, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Agreed
> 
> Feats really disagree with this, only with the durability that is,
> PS was busted by a Chojo Kobetsu that lost nearly all of its hands,



Lol, Chojo Kebutsu hit PS, and *then *lost all of it's hands. Not to mention the simple math equation already proves any kind of argument you can bring here.

Naruto and Sasuke got the same boost and their Avatars were equal. Take away that same boost, and you come to the conclusion that they are equal.



> *whereas the BM avatar tanked the juubi beam that shat on 9 TBB, where 5 of the TBB were from the avatar, when 1 TBB from the avatar was strong enough to match 5 bijuus, *
> and this is the same beam that has all of its power focused on one point, and is alot more potent and concentrated than a weakened chojo kobetsu,



1. I don't know where Chojo Kebutsu being weakened came from, but it's not the manga. Madara took Hashirama's full power and Hashirama took Madara's full power. No ifs ands or buts about it.

2. Equal Avatar's after they both get the same amount of power. Remove that equal boost, and they are still equal.

6=6

minus 2 from both.

4=4

Same principle.

3. The Juubi's laser is no more focused than Chojo Kebutsu would be. The fists all hit one point. The laser hits one point. That point is no different in size when comparing both the targets, which would be Kurama. 

4. Naruto's largest shown Bijuu Dama equaled a Bijuu Dama from 5 Bijuu. Unless you are trying to imply that a small Bijuu Dama=a large one, I suggest you drop that comparison.



> with that being said, we get to the obvious conclusion that the BM kurama avatar is more durable than PS,


Uh.....no.



> unless you think that the Juubi beam is weaker than* Chojo Kobetsu which lost over 90% of its arms*



Where is this stuff coming from?


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## sabre320 (Dec 15, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol, Chojo Kebutsu hit PS, and *then *lost all of it's hands. Not to mention the simple math equation already proves any kind of argument you can bring here.
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke got the same boost and their Avatars were equal. Take away that same boost, and you come to the conclusion that they are equal.
> 
> ...



Naruto was holding back ....one tail from naruto blocked ps sword...he could use the other 8 to grip sasukes ps and restrain it.. ...casual attacks from kaguya busted sasukes ps...naruto tanked those attacks with his basic cloak and chakra arms...naruto was running on low once he gathered natural energy his avatar was matching sasukes bijuu ps..hell even before that he survived attacks from bijuu ps..same durability indeed..the sword bijudama destroyed many of the fists before they landed....so yeah ps did not get hit by all the fists..how can you claim the fist barrage is just as focused as a laser thats just... not to mention the fist barrage is a simultaneous attack so it expells its energy in a sequence while the laser expells all its energy in one burst thus being more potent and better at busting defences.....now before u go pshhh  chojo kobetsu is just as good the laser was from juubi which is above shinsensenju first of all second..think of a soldier wearing body armour..an enemy comes out and hits the body armour with an full clip of an automatic 9mm uzi the body armour is not pierced and survives the consecutive bullet bararge but if the body armour is hit with a 50.cal it or even a high density ap shot from a ak47 it will bore through the body armour because it expells its energy in one focused burst even though the energy of the multiple uzi shots might be higher..


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 15, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Naruto was holding back ....one tail from naruto blocked ps sword...


Ok?



> he could use the other 8 to grip sasukes ps and restrain it..


If he could have restrained Sasuke, he would have done it, not to mention there is no evidence I'm seeing from your post to imply that Naruto's Avatar is strong enough to restrain something just as strong as itself.



> ...casual attacks from kaguya busted sasukes ps


Uh huh.



> ...naruto tanked those attacks with his basic cloak and chakra arms.


Ok? Does this change the fact that PS=Kurama Avatar in speed, strength and durability?

..





> naruto was running on low once he gathered natural energy his avatar was matching sasukes bijuu ps.


.
No, he wasn't running on low, especially since he just got an influx of outside power.



> hell even before that he survived attacks from bijuu ps..same durability indeed


He was getting slapped around by basic Taijutsu from Bijuu Susanoo. How does this change the fact that Kurama Avatar=PS in durability? 

.





> .the sword bijudama destroyed many of the fists before they landed....so yeah ps did not get hit by all the fists.


.
It destroyed some of the fists, most of the fists still hit Susanoo, and then the final explosion blew them all off.



> how can you claim the fist barrage is just as focused as a laser thats just..


.:
They all affect the same exact surface area in respect to the targets we are referring to here. 



> notrust not to mention the fist barrage is a simultaneous attack so it expells its energy in a sequence while the laser expells all its energy in one burst thus being more potent and better at busting defences..


.
Uh, no. That means each individual fist has to be used in a barrage to yield large amounts of energy, that doesn't mean the energy yielded will always be inferior to something that releases it's energy in a single burst.

Is Bijuu Dama stronger than Chojo Kebutsu? Nope.


.





> now before u go pshhh  chojo kobetsu is just as good the laser was from juubi which is above shinsensenju first of all second..think of a soldier wearing body armour..an enemy comes out and hits the body armour with an full clip of an automatic 9mm uzi the body armour is not pierced and survives the consecutive bullet bararge but if the body armour is hit with a 50.cal it or even a high density ap shot from a ak47 it will bore through the body armour because it expells its energy in one focused burst even though the energy of the multiple uzi shots might be higher..



No, it rips through because:

1. One round is more focused than multiple Uzi shots, since multiple Uzi shots probably aren't going to land on the same area on the body armor, thus the energy, even if higher than the one round, is spread out.

2. The one round exerts more energy than the uzi's multiple shots.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 16, 2014)

Corax said:


> She absorbed it here heart thumping with chakra heart thumping with chakra . Though it is a bit hard to tell did she use that white aura around her (page 17) to blow it away,or to partially absorb it, or may be just any Susano dissipates in that manner then it is heavily damaged. Anyway she later absorbed 9 rasen-shurikens infused with RSM chakra and biju powers,they should contain way more chakra than Sasuke s PS. Actually PS shouldn't has that much chakra in it. EMS Sasuke could use it multiple times (if it was PS),this logically means that it has only a fragment of his  slightly above average chakra (3.5  in DB3), otherwise he would die of chakra exhaustion if he uses more chakra for jutsu than he has. Not sure about Ricudo Sasuke,but logically he had less chakra than Ricudo Mode Naruto.



Maybe it was the Hyuuga defensive jutsu amped up to god level? Though maybe she absorbed it a bit before using the Hyuuga stuff...

As for the rasenshurikens it is hard to tell how much chakra they use. PS seems to use as much as Naruto's BM avatar. Maybe those rasenshurikens use more. I do not know if she actually absorbed them. Maybe she tried to use the Hyuuga defensive jutsu again but couldn't block all the damage which is why she was blown away with her clothes somewhat damaged? Kaguya's jutsu absorption is really weird as we only saw her use it agains Amaterasu but she seemed worried about chidori and dodged Sasuke's Enton. Weird indeed. Even more when she had her arm ripped off with a mere arm swing from Six Path Senjutsu Naruto and almost severed by Kakashi's raikiri. Those rasenshurikens should have obliterated her given that an explosion DID occur.

And EMS Sasuke, he only used PS once. Well, from the DB it would be more accurate to say he used the Majestic Susanoo armor variant which is PS used as armor for bijuus. It may use as much chakra as PS or it may not. Certainly the quality of both Sasuke PS and Naruto's BM increased when they got Six Path chakra. Unknown if the chakra cost increased too. 

The 3.5 in chakra frm DB3 was just after Sasuke got MS. I'm pretty sure both him and Naruto got an increase in chakra reserves by the time they fought Juubito(not even counting what Naruto got from Kurama). As for RS Sasuke chakra reserves he may IMO have as much as 50% Kurama given how he can use a chakra avatar similar to the one Kurama needs plenty of charging time to use but he does not have as much chakra as 50% Kurama and Naruto put together which is why he run out of chakra a bit earlier and needed to absorb Kurama's chakra.


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## Hexa (Dec 16, 2014)

I don't think Kaguya attempted to absorb the bijuu rasenshuriken.  As it was, the attack resonated with the Juubi and forced a transformation.  She just tanked the attack instead of absorbing it and making the resonance worse, I think.

Otherwise, Kaguya clearly just blasted away Sasuke's Susano'o.  Regardless, we see later that while Sasuke's Susano'o wasn't powerful enough to contend with Kaguya, it's still effective despite the absorption power.  Another person Susano'o was effective against would be _Nagato_.


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## sabre320 (Dec 16, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Ok?
> 
> 
> If he could have restrained Sasuke, he would have done it, not to mention there is no evidence I'm seeing from your post to imply that Naruto's Avatar is strong enough to restrain something just as strong as itself.
> ...



Naruto survived the same attack that obliterated sasukes ps while using basic chakra arms bm avatar is superior in offense and durability to basic shroud and chakra arms....
Link removed
Link removed

Do you not understand the concept of holding back even sasuke knew it..he was trying to talk to sasuke ..Link removed....
Link removed
 sasuke put all of ps might behind the sword strike and one tail casually blocked that the other 8tails are capable of ...restraining it..

He was in canon running on low..Link removed
.he couldnt use any of the beasts abilities like gonbis power..

Quit being dense and stubborn a laser is more focused then punches ...its basic physics..not to mention the punches were not landing on the same spot they were targetting the whole avatar..
Link removed

No chojo kobetsu is not inferior to to a simple bijudama but an atatck with comparable power will always be more potent to defenses when the energy released is focused in one burst..

1. One round is more focused than multiple Uzi shots, since multiple Uzi shots probably aren't going to land on the same area on the body armor, thus the energy, even if higher than the one round, is spread out.

2. The one round exerts more energy than the uzi's multiple shots.[/QUOTE]

neither were the punches landing on the same exact spot...
No the energy exerted by the ak ap shot is focused and released on one spot same as the laser but the whole magazine burst from the uzi as a collective contains more energy...

Lets take the case of an m1a2 abrahams tank..you can hit it with pound charge of c4 consequitively 10 times the armour will not be busted because its damage threshold is  ot breached..but put 10punds of c4 in one charge in the side of the tank and it will be breached..get it?


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## Icegaze (Dec 17, 2014)

Sasuke can form PS with his EMS 
He murders
Same way madara would 
He covered naruto construct with PS why would anyone assume he cannot do it again 
Considering he did it on panel 
EMS grants the ability to do that


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 17, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Sasuke can form PS with his EMS
> He murders
> Same way madara would
> He covered naruto construct with PS why would anyone assume he cannot do it again
> ...



My main man always on the money 


nagato simply cannot deal with megazords, he's not on that level, if the battle is drawn out, nagato is hit with a kirin for the lolz and he can't absorb it


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## Icegaze (Dec 18, 2014)

He will be able to ST it though 
But am thinking PS chidori should be enough 
Sasukr drops that on him and Nagato would be struggling 

CT would be casually stopped 1 Enton arrow should suffice 
Pretty sure PS can shoot Enton arrows though this wasn't shown 

ST does have a time limit if he deflects PS sasuke jumps out of it and uses more attacks


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## TheGreen1 (Dec 19, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> We don't have a _solid_ measure of Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke's capabilities without the aid of Naruto's chakra enhancements or Jugo lending him natural energy to utilize senjutsu, but it's a fair estimate to peg his Perfect Susanoo around Tailed Beast Sage Mode Naruto's level.
> 
> Why? Because with the Sage of Six Paths' gifts, both Naruto and Sasuke were toe-to-toe, equal in every sense of their word when their chakra constructs clashed. Take that away, and while Naruto still maintains his Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Mode state, Sasuke _only_ has Perfect Susanoo - *proving* the aforementioned equality.



The fuck fanfic are you reading? Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is NOT on BSM Naruto's level. No way, no how. You obviously missed how Sasuke enhanced his construct with Six Path's Chakra and a shitload of the 9 Bijuu's Chakra. His Regular Susano'o would have been wrecked by Naruto's Kurama Avatar's, of which Naruto could make more than one.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 19, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> He will be able to ST it though
> But am thinking PS chidori should be enough
> Sasukr drops that on him and Nagato would be struggling
> 
> ...



I doubt Nagato can st natural lightning, I agree with everything else tho.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 19, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> The fuck fanfic are you reading? Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is NOT on BSM Naruto's level. No way, no how. *You obviously missed how Sasuke enhanced his construct with Six Path's Chakra and a shitload of the 9 Bijuu's Chakra*. His Regular Susano'o would have been wrecked by Naruto's Kurama Avatar's, of which Naruto could make more than one.



What the hell? Lol, I suggest you actually read the manga this time, and then post. Sasuke's regular Susanoo was shown to be on par with Naruto's Kurama Avatar in speed, strength, and durability. 

 to an extent
 to an extent
 to an extent
 to an extent
 to an extent
 to an extent

His Susanoo was enhanced by Half of Hagoromo's Power here, not the 9 Bijuu. Naruto's Avatar was also enhanced by half of Hagoromo's power. Do the math.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> What the hell? Lol, I suggest you actually read the manga this time, and then post. Sasuke's regular Susanoo was shown to be on par with Naruto's Kurama Avatar in speed, strength, and durability.
> 
> to an extent
> to an extent
> ...



Naruto was holding back, while Sasuke was all out to kill Naruto.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 19, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Naruto was holding back, while Sasuke was all out to kill Naruto.



Doesn't change the durability and strength of his avatar.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Doesn't change the durability and strength of his avatar.



Naruto wasnt even trying to be on the offencive. He was holding back all the time.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 19, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Naruto wasnt even trying to be on the offencive. He was holding back all the time.



Once again. *That does not change the durability, strength, or speed of his Avatar.*


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Once again. *That does not change the durability, strength, or speed of his Avatar.*



That is higher than that of Sasuke's PS.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 19, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> That is higher than that of Sasuke's PS.



What the hell are you talking about? Naruto holding back his best attacks *DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT PS AND THE KURAMA AVATAR WERE SHOWN TO BE EQUALS. *


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

> What the hell are you talking about? Naruto holding back his best attacks DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT PS AND THE KURAMA AVATAR WERE SHOWN TO BE EQUALS.



They were not, since Sasuke was *all out* on Naruto, yet Naruto was *holding back* all the time. But nevertheless, Sasuke was *unable* to defeat him. Even after he amped his Susanoo with Tailed Beasts chakra, he was unable to defeat no-amp Rikudou Naruto. Sasuke's PS is weaker. Thats it.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> They were not, since Sasuke was *all out* on Naruto, yet Naruto was *holding back* all the time. But nevertheless, Sasuke was *unable* to defeat him.



The stupidity is overwhelming. 

Naruto held back his full power. That does not change the physical parameters of his Avatar. That means he held back his strongest attacks.




> Even after he amped his Susanoo with Tailed Beasts chakra, he was unable to defeat no-amp Rikudou Naruto. Sasuke's PS is weaker. Thats it.



_no interest in current affairs_
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Equal speed, strength, and durability.

Bijuu PS Sasuke raping Kurama Mode Naruto.

Link removed

So what the hell are you talking about when you say he was unable to defeat "No amp Naruto"?

Does this look like "No amp" to you?
Link removed


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> The stupidity is overwhelming.
> 
> Naruto held back his full power. That does not change the physical parameters of his Avatar. That means he held back his strongest attacks.



He didnt use his full physical traits because he was holding back. he never attacked Sasuke because he was holding back. if Naruto was all out, he could have beat Sasuke's PS in a hand-to-hand combat. Sasuke was all out there yet could not beat Naruto's Kurama Avatar.



> _no interest in current affairs_
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



Sasuke was on the offensive, yet unable to do anything. Naruto was on the defencive and was holding back. How that equalise them in speed, strength and durability? 

Its like Wladimir Klitchsko just protecting himself from Alexander Povetkins hits, without attacking in return and holding himself back. Does that means they both are equal in speed and strength? No.

That was a clone. And 1 missed punch means nothing, especially when Sasuke was unable to beat Naruto's other clones.

Oh by the way: Link removed


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> He didnt use his full physical traits because he was holding back. he never attacked Sasuke because he was holding back. if Naruto was all out, he could have beat Sasuke's PS in a hand-to-hand combat. Sasuke was all out there yet could not beat Naruto's Kurama Avatar.



Holding back things like " excess Nature Energy, Clones, and bigger Bijuu Dama"=/=Holding back his physical strength. I highly suggest you get evidence before making shit up. Not to mention that still wouldn't change durability as durability is a passive trait. You can't change it.





> Sasuke was on the offensive, yet unable to do anything. Naruto was on the defencive and was holding back. How that equalise them in speed, strength and durability?


Naruto and Sasuke's Avatar's clashed, and there was a stalemate. That's how they are equal. 



> Its like Wladimir Klitchsko just protecting himself from Alexander Povetkins hits, without attacking in return and holding himself back. Does that means they both are equal in speed and strength? No.


Except Naruto wasn't just guarding, Naruto was counter attacking. Learn the difference.



> *That was a clone. *And 1 missed punch means nothing, especially when Sasuke was unable to beat Naruto's other clones.


Irrelevant. 4 Avatars>>>1 Avatar.

1 missed punch? He blitzed the Kurama Avatar, and then was taking on 4 others. How the hell does that make him weaker than one avatar? 



> Oh by the way: Link removed



Can't see that page.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> Holding back things like " excess Nature Energy, Clones, and bigger Bijuu Dama"=/=Holding back his physical strength. I highly suggest you get evidence before making shit up. Not to mention that still wouldn't change durability as durability is a passive trait. You can't change it.



He wasnt attacking. Thats the main point about him holding himself back. He wasnt counterattacking in their close combat confrontation. He was defending himself. Sasuke even commented on that.



> Naruto and Sasuke's Avatar's clashed, and there was a stalemate. That's how they are equal.



because Naruto was holding himself back in their physical confrontation.



> Except Naruto wasn't just guarding, Naruto was counter attacking. Learn the difference.



No he wasnt.



> Irrelevant. 4 Avatars>>>1 Avatar.
> 
> 1 missed punch? He blitzed the Kurama Avatar, and then was taking on 4 others. How the hell does that make him weaker than one avatar?



*Clones. They were clones.* Learn how shadow clones technique works. 



> Can't see that page.



Nevermind. I dont think it will make any differences in out debate.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> He wasnt attacking. Thats the main point about him holding himself back. *He wasnt counterattacking in their close combat confrontation. He was defending himself.* Sasuke even commented on that.




Lol, what the hell? Sasuke said that Naruto was on the defensive. Counter attacking is a form of defense. Naruto wasn't on the offensive, as in he wasn't the aggressor in the fight. Sasuke attacked him first in all those skirmishes, not Naruto.



> because Naruto was holding himself back in their physical confrontation.


He was holding back altogether. Period. Not interested in any other interpretation unless you have proof.



> No he wasnt.


And now you are outright lying about the manga.

This isn't attacking?
a hard time

This isn't attacking?
a hard time

This isn't attacking?
a hard time

This isn't attacking?
a hard time

Sasuke attacked Naruto and Naruto counter attacked. Learn how to read a fight scene.




> *Clones. They were clones.* Learn how shadow clones technique works.


Learn how Shadow Clones work. Chakra is split, not power. The original's Rasengan is still the same as a clone's Rasengan, because the clone has enough chakra to use it at full power.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> Lol, what the hell? Sasuke said that Naruto was on the defensive. Counter attacking is a form of defense. Naruto wasn't on the offensive, as in he wasn't the aggressor in the fight. Sasuke attacked him first in all those skirmishes, not Naruto.



Attacking is a form of defense? LOL. 

And Sasuke never said Naruto was just counterattacking him. He said he was on the defensive.



> He was holding back altogether. Period. Not interested in any other interpretation unless you have proof.



Sasuke couldnt beat Kurama Avatars clones that are weaker than original in a close-combat after he absorbed Tailed Beasts chakra. Here is your proof.



> And now you are outright lying about the manga.
> 
> This isn't attacking?
> here
> ...



1. More like a pre-fight greetings. Like when MMA or boxing match starts.

2. It can be aither attack, or prdefence from Sasuke's attack, but since Sasuke commented on that...

3. The same as 2.

4. The same as 2.



> Learn how Shadow Clones work. Chakra is split, not power. The original's Rasengan is still the same as a clone's Rasengan, because the clone has enough chakra to use it at full power.



Learn how Shadow Clones work, son. Chakra, thus power (they are created because of chakra, they are chakra), is distributed among them, giving a fraction of originals power to each clone.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Attacking is a form of defense? LOL.



*Counter *attacking? Yes, because you only counter attack when someone attacks you, in order to protect yourself.



> And Sasuke never said Naruto was just counterattacking him. He said he was on the defensive.


Yeah, because he was counter attacking, he wasn't attacking Sasuke himself, he was only responding to Sasuke's attacks with his own to prevent himself from being defeated.




> Sasuke couldnt beat Kurama Avatars clones that are weaker than original in a close-combat after he absorbed Tailed Beasts chakra. Here is your proof.


Except 4 Kurama Avatars aren't weaker than one.




> 1. More like a pre-fight greetings. Like when MMA or boxing match starts.


If only this was before the fight started, but it wasn't.  Naruto and Sasuke were shown clashing repeatedly, and then they punch each other and we see a stalemate.



> 2. It can be aither attack, or prdefence from Sasuke's attack, but since Sasuke commented on that...


Sasuke's comment doesn't change anything I said.

.


> [Learn how Shadow Clones work, son. Chakra, thus power (they are created because of chakra, they are chakra), is distributed among them, giving a fraction of originals power to each clone.



Repeating what I've already replied to isn't going to help your argument. Does Naruto's Rasengan get weaker when he uses clones? No. So you are wrong. Shadow Clones divide chakra, not power. Stop trying to invent drawbacks to the jutsu so you can try and validate your terrible argument.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2014)

But Part 1 established clones are = to the original in Naruto's case.

 Naruto vs Neji, clones are pretty much the same, even Neji couldn't detect who was the original.

 Unless I'm dungoofing in which case I'd love to get educated on this subject. I always believed the clones Naruto used were pretty much equal to the original, obviously with not as much chakra.


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