# Sanji vs King



## Vivo Diez (Jan 10, 2022)

*Location: *Onigashima, Skull Dome, Pleasure Hall
*Starting distance: *15m
*Conditions:* Both IC with killer intent


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## Mercurial (Jan 10, 2022)

King is basically a stronger version of Sanji: stronger fire (compared to magma), stronger physical attacks, same speed (but without any massive stamina drain), pseudo-invulnerability a thousand times better than just esoskeleton (that even Queen's Vinsmoke tricks could damage).

King wins mid diff,maybe high diff at worst. Sanji can't even hurt him for real (Pre Adv CoC Zoro couldn't, and I dare anyone to argue that his hits aren't stronger than Current Sanji's).

Reactions: Like 4 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Incognitos (Jan 10, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> King is basically a stronger version of Sanji: stronger fire (compared to magma), stronger physical attacks, same speed (but without any massive stamina drain), pseudo-invulnerability a thousand times better than just esoskeleton (that even Queen's Vinsmoke tricks could damage).
> 
> King wins mid diff,maybe high diff at worst. Sanji can't even hurt him for real (Pre Adv CoC Zoro couldn't, and I dare anyone to argue that his hits aren't stronger than Current Sanji's).


Pre adv CoC Zoro could have hurt him without his durability phase. Sanji has the speed and mobility along with intelligence to capitalize upon that.


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## Mercurial (Jan 10, 2022)

Incognitos said:


> Pre adv CoC Zoro could have hurt him without his durability phase. Sanji has the speed and mobility along with intelligence to capitalize upon that.


Zoro could not hurt King before gaining Adv CoC. Which is an enormous power up, a boost that puts him so much above Sanji. 
Sanji is now very strong but still weaker than any YC1, and a lot below Adv CoC Zoro.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Jan 10, 2022)

Sanji extreme diff’d Queen so he likely looses to King

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Sanji extreme diff’d Queen so he likely looses to King



_Is Sanji starting this fight without the Germa upgrades as he did his fight with Queen ?_


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## Germa 66 (Jan 10, 2022)

If Zoro’s stupid self figured out King’s abilities then Sanji deduces it instantly and wins high difficulty because he is simply better than King in all things except controlling fire, but that’s irrelevant as Sanji can’t be burned by the likes of a loser like him.

King’s saving grace from a mid diff is his durability which will take time to wither down.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Is Sanji starting this fight without the Germa upgrades as he did his fight with Queen ?_


This is the current version of Sanji as he is in the current timeline, starting out completely healthy though of course.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (Jan 10, 2022)

King takes it quite comfortably. Destroying Big Mom > beating Queen.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 7 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 10, 2022)

King takes it


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Incognitos said:


> Pre adv CoC Zoro could have hurt him without his durability phase.


Pre Adv CoC hit King in the face and didn't even scratch him


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> If Zoro’s stupid self figured out King’s abilities then Sanji deduces it instantly and wins high difficulty because he is simply better than King in all things except controlling fire, but that’s irrelevant as Sanji can’t be burned by the likes of a loser like him.
> 
> King’s saving grace from a mid diff is his durability which will take time to wither down.


King is faster, has more mobility, better CoA, better durability, stronger, hotter fire. Gotta love the delusion on your post

And yes, Sanji can very much be burned by King. He explicitly explained to us how DJ was as hot as he could go, and now Ifrit Jambe is as hot as he can go. King's fire is hotter than that, and as such, would burn the shit out of him

Fanboying like a maniac won't make Sanji stronger than he is lol

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

_No name knee to the face from Marco made durability mode King bleed.

We've also seen Queen in human form take named moves from Marco with way less lasting damage than what Sanji was capable of with Ifrit Jambe against Hybrid Queen.

King has to choose between speed that can momentarily be maybe comparable to Sanji's and the durability that would force Sanji to use Ifrit Jambe against him to do heavy damage, and if King goes for speed he entirely discards his fire.

Sanji doesn't have to switch between modes, he can deliver his strongest kick at his highest speed with his utmost fire power. We've seen that even before Ifrjit Jambe when Queen entirely lost sight of Sanji when he was hit by the Hell Memories.


Overall current Sanji would likely mid diff  Queen, so he should at least be as strong as King.


Potentially in this particular match-up however its possible that King benefits from having higher Fire Resistance.

I could see that being the case, and then i would give this to him because it's a bad match-up for Sanji.

If we treat Sanji's Fire as a different element that would hurt King just as much as it would hurt anyone else, i could see him win this, especially if he manages to bait King and land some of his strongest moves on flames off King_

Reactions: Like 3


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> No name knee to the face from Marco made durability mode King bleed.




Zoro's onigiri also made durability mode King bleed, and guess what Zoro said a couple chapters after? "I've hit him several times and he's not even bleeding"
Those attacks didn't do anything. King was undamaged.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> King has to choose between speed that can momentarily be maybe comparable to Sanji's and the durability that would force Sanji to use Ifrit Jambe against him to do heavy damage, and if King goes for speed he entirely discards his fire.


You forget that without his fire King took several AdCoC Zoro hits point blank and kept going. Sanji's attacking power is not comparable to AdCoC Zoro.
Even without his durability mode Ifrit Jambe would likely not do heavy damage. If you actually think IJ can damage durability mode there's not much else to say except stop deluding yourself.

Oh, and you also forget one thing... King was overpowering Zoro the whole fight. Named attacks from Zoro. Sanji is getting the same thing, kick King's attacks, get thrown back off the island.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> Sanji doesn't have to switch between modes, he can deliver his strongest kick at his highest speed with his utmost fire power. We've seen that even before Ifrjit Jambe when Queen entirely lost sight of Sanji when he was hit by the Hell Memories.


And his strongest kick at his highest speed will be overpowered by King in speed mode, or straight up tanked with no damage by King in durability mode.


It's like some people didn't actually read King vs Zoro

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Conxc (Jan 10, 2022)

King

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Incognitos (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Pre Adv CoC hit King in the face and didn't even scratch him





Mercurial said:


> Zoro could not hurt King before gaining Adv CoC. Which is an enormous power up, a boost that puts him so much above Sanji.
> Sanji is now very strong but still weaker than any YC1, and a lot below Adv CoC Zoro.


Kings secret is he switches between durability and speed. Zoro couldn't hurt him in durability. It's like you guys didn't read the fight.


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## Corax (Jan 10, 2022)

It this is fresh DNA Sanji King extreme. Fresh DNA Sanji is a good deal above Queen,but King is special. His fire,his durability,his mobility and zoan mastery were highlighted.


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Incognitos said:


> Kings secret is he switches between durability and speed. Zoro couldn't hurt him in durability. It's like you guys didn't read the fight.




Where's the fire?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Incognitos (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Where's the fire?


Where's Zoro attacking? Looks like he's blocking to me


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## Kroczilla (Jan 10, 2022)

King for now. Sanji's stamina drains way too quick to finish off King. He dominates in Ifrit mode though



Mercurial said:


> that even Queen's Vinsmoke tricks could damage)



Shocking right?

It's almost like Queen is a billion+ bounty man whose successfully hurt possibly the most durable character in the series.


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Incognitos said:


> Where's Zoro attacking? Looks like he's blocking to me


? Right there. It was a named attack lol



And what part of King's mask being blown off makes you think Zoro is blocking?

Ironic that you say other people didn't read the fight

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## TheRealSJ (Jan 10, 2022)

Dunno said:


> King takes it quite comfortably. Destroying Big Mom > beating Queen.


Sometimes your delusions are so funny it helps chuckle on the roughest of days...

Cheers to you

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Is Sanji starting this fight without the Germa upgrades as he did his fight with Queen ?_


He had Germa upgrades at the end and still extreme diff’d so it wouldn’t matter much


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Zoro's onigiri also made durability mode King bleed, and guess what Zoro said a couple chapters after? "I've hit him several times and he's not even bleeding"
> Those attacks didn't do anything. King was undamaged.
> 
> 
> ...



_Can't be "undamaged" and bleed. Obviously he was damaged when he was bleeding. And it's not a one time thing as you pointed out, Oda made sure to show him bleed twice with his fire on.

Since he was bleeding from Marco's nameless kick, and we've seen the effect Marco's named attacks had on base Queen in comparison to Sanji's Ifrjit Jambe on Hybrid Queen, we can easily scale Sanji's Ifrit Jambe to do a whole lot more to him ( unless we say that fire is nearly useless against King, which maybe is a possibility ).
_


> _And his strongest kick at his highest speed will be overpowered by King in speed mode, or straight up tanked with no damage by King in durability mode._


_

Do you think King no diffs Queen now or what ?  

Because the portrayal between the two clearly implies at least a low degree of high difficulty in Kings favor, with them getting acknowledged and compared on multiple ocasions, and with Marco stating that their strength is as expected given their bounties after he faced them both.


King is very impressive, as would be a fresh post Exoskeleton Sanji, as would be a fresh Zoro right now more than the other two.

Sanji pretty much moved on King's/Marco's tier, and Zoro went a step above where he can high diff King/Marco/Sanji if he'd have to fight them post Wano._


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## Conxc (Jan 10, 2022)

The most durable character in the series wouldn’t have been writhing in pain on the floor from being smashed into some flimsy partitions.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Can't be "undamaged" and bleed. Obviously he was damaged when he was bleeding. And it's not a one time thing as you pointed out, Oda made sure to show him bleed twice with his fire on.
> 
> Since he was bleeding from Marco's nameless kick, and we've seen the effect Marco's named attacks had on base Queen in comparison to Sanji's Ifrjit Jambe on Hybrid Queen, we can easily scale Sanji's Ifrit Jambe to do a whole lot more to him ( unless we say that fire is nearly useless against King, which maybe is a possibility ).


Friend you are directly contradicting the manga. Zoro flat out said King was not damaged at all. Later, he flat out said "The flames are on, no point attacking now". Sanji's ifrit Jambe doesn't do shit to King in Fire mode, like nothing else does shit to King in Fire Mode.

You can do all the reaching you want. Fire mode King is not damageable. If he bled, then he regenerated instantly and imediately recovered 100%. That is what the manga told us.



If Zoro with AdCoC and Enma is telling you there's no point attacking fire King, then Sanji can't do shit to fire king either.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> Do you think King no diffs Queen now or what ?


? 

He lower end high diffs Queen only because of Queen's durability and versatility. King is on a whole other level compared to Queen lol



Sir Curlyhat said:


> Because the portrayal between the two clearly implies at least a low degree of high difficulty in Kings favor, with them getting acknowledged and compared on multiple ocasions, and with Marco stating that their strength is as expected given their bounties after he faced them both.


You're still on this? After this raid where through the entire fight King was ALWAYS portrayed as a completely separate threat from Queen?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> Sanji pretty much moved on King's/Marco's tier, and Zoro went a step above where he can high diff King/Marco/Sanji if he'd have to fight them post Wano.


Sanji is low YC1, or the strongest YC2. He's on King's tier, but on the lower end and he can't beat King.

King is literally Sanji on steroids.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Sanji's ifrit Jambe doesn't do shit to King in Fire mode, like nothing else does shit to King in Fire Mode.


Marco was able to hurt King in fire mode. By feats, Ifrit Jambe >> Marco's AP. Saying it can't hurt King is lol worthy

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## Kroczilla (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King is literally Sanji on steroids.


Is he though? He can't combine durability with his speed. Isn't as fast. Has no healing factor.  they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Marco was able to hurt King in fire mode. By feats, Ifrit Jambe >> Marco's AP. Saying it can't hurt King is lol worthy


  

Let's try this again

1 - Zoro made King bleed with Onigiri
2 - Zoro later said King is undamaged

What can we take from this? Could it be that....... King's flames regenerate him? OH WHO COULD'VE KNOWN?!?!?!?!?



Kroczilla said:


> He can't combine durability with his speed


He took 2 adCoC Zoro named attacks point blank in speed mode. Both of those attacks hit him straight in the face
This is his face after those 2 AdCoC named attacks point blank in the face:


I think his durability is fine and better than Sanji's



Kroczilla said:


> Isn't as fast.


They both disappeared from their opponents sight. Zoro is both faster and more powerful than Queen.
King's feat is better than Sanji's feat. So please, where exactly did you get the idea that Sanji is the faster one?



Kroczilla said:


> Has no healing factor.



I thought when Zoro said this everyone had easily realized that King's flames regenerate him? Like they're clearly doing here:



So not only does King have regeneration, it's also much much better than Sanji's


So I guess... Yeah, King is Sanji on steroids

Reactions: Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Friend you are directly contradicting the manga. Zoro flat out said King was not damaged at all. Later, he flat out said "The flames are on, no point attacking now". Sanji's ifrit Jambe doesn't do shit to King in Fire mode, like nothing else does shit to King in Fire Mode.
> 
> You can do all the reaching you want. Fire mode King is not damageable. If he bled, then he regenerated instantly and imediately recovered 100%. That is what the manga told us.
> 
> ...



_Hmm, so you believe that the only reason Zoro won vs King was because King was not using his fire on himself when he used it to make the big fire dragon that Zoro could cut through after he learned how to cut fire ?  

Then do you still put current Zoro on Marco/King's level with not enough of an edge to move above ?

Part of this might be just me giving more credit to Zoro and Sanji's strength walking out of Wano.

For example i think Zoro high diffs Sanji, do you agree with that ?

We might have the same gaps inbetween but i'm just pushing Zoro and Sanji a bit higher than you are  _


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## Kroczilla (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Let's try this again
> 
> 1 - Zoro made King bleed with Onigiri
> 2 - Zoro later said King is undamaged
> ...


Reach. Zoro said King wasn't bleeding from his attacks. At best that indicates him cauterizing his wounds and is a far cry from actual regen.


Strobacaxi said:


> He took 2 adCoC Zoro named attacks point blank in speed mode. Both of those attacks hit him straight in the face
> This is his face after those 2 AdCoC named attacks point blank in the face:
> 
> 
> I think his durability is fine and better than Sanji's


Same durability got wrecked by Marco in his most durable mode. Also given the likes of Kineamon have survived an AdCoc blow from an actual emperor, I'm not putting too much stock into this feat especially given how he got his wing split once in one go.


Strobacaxi said:


> They both disappeared from their opponents sight. Zoro is both faster and more powerful than Queen.
> King's feat is better than Sanji's feat. So please, where exactly did you get the idea that Sanji is the faster one?


Not really. Zoro could track King just fine hence why he could react. Queen couldn't perceive Sanji. And yes, disappearing completely from the sight of someone who could track Marco's movements and perceived a surprise attack from the latter is the far superior feat.


Strobacaxi said:


> I thought when Zoro said this everyone had easily realized that King's flames regenerate him? Like they're clearly doing here:
> 
> 
> 
> So not only does King have regeneration, it's also much much better than Sanji's


Everyone thought King was regenerating coz the nature of his ability was hidden. Now it's in the open and spoiler alert, there no indication of Regen being part of his moveset. So stop reaching.

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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Hmm, so you believe that the only reason Zoro won vs King was because King was not using his fire on himself when he used it to make the big fire dragon that Zoro could cut through after he learned how to cut fire ?


Uhm, yes? It's not believing, it's just a fact. This was clear. King only is in durability mode when the fire is on his back. The fire wasn't on his back, so he wasn't in durability mode. He can create flames, that's a completely different thing from the fire on his back.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> Then do you still put current Zoro on Marco/King's level with not enough of an edge to move above ?


? How did you get there?

Zoro defeated King mid/high diff after his powerup. So he is clearly above King. Just like Sanji is clearly above Queen after mid/high diffing him after his powerup.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> For example i think Zoro high diffs Sanji, do you agree with that ?


Of course I do

I really have no idea where your post came from lol. Just because Zoro can't damage King when King is in his undamageable form doesn't mean he's not stronger than him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Uhm, yes? It's not believing, it's just a fact. This was clear. King only is in durability mode when the fire is on his back. The fire wasn't on his back, so he wasn't in durability mode. He can create flames, that's a completely different thing from the fire on his back.
> 
> 
> ? How did you get there?
> ...



_What do you think though of the fact that after a certain point King was blocking Zoro's attacks with the fire on his back and Zoro took special note of the fact that he's now guarding against him even when his fire is on ?_


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

King is a superior version of Sanji.

Zoan powers which guarantee superior physical power in combination with lunarian durability > exoskeleton.

His fire is hinted at being superior to regular fire by being compared to magma, aka magu > mera in hierarchy.

He's got flight and acceleration thanks to his DF and wings similiar to a RS aswell as heat resistance.

King high (mid) diff.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Reach. Zoro said King wasn't bleeding for his attacks. At best that indicates him cauterizing his wounds and is a far cry from actual regen.


lol context anyone?
Zoro was struggling over not being able to hurt King. He then says he hit him several times but he's not even bleeding

Shit I wonder what that could possibly mean. We've seen King's face and chest. There were no wounds. THEY REGENERATED



Kroczilla said:


> Same durability got wrecked by Marco in his most durable mode. Also given the likes of Kineamon have survived an AdCoc blow from an actual emperor, I'm not putting too much stock into this feat especially given how he got his wing split once in one go.


"Wrecked by Marco"




Yeah you keep ignoring everything the manga shows against your opinion, that's how an unbiased person debates lol
Oh, and survive =/= take
Kinemon survived because people don't die on this manga. He was one shotted and defeated. So great example to show King's durability, thanks buddy



Kroczilla said:


> Not really. Zoro could track King just fine hence why he could react.


Uhm, Zoro had to take an attack from King to hit him. He couldn't see him, he just got hit and counter attacked.



Kroczilla said:


> And yes, disappearing completely from the sight of someone who could track Marco's movements and perceived a surprise attack from the latter is the far superior feat.


Uhm by perceiving you mean get hit? lol

Any evidence that Zoro can't do the same? Because, again, Zoro is faster and more powerful than Queen. Give me one reason why Zoro can't perceive superior speeds?
So no, disappearing from Queen's sight isn't a far superior feat to disappearing from a faster character's sight

Which is better, disappear from Zoro's sight or disappear from Sanji's sight?



Kroczilla said:


> Everyone thought King was regenerating coz the nature of his ability was hidden. Now it's in the open and spoiler alert, there no indication of Regen being part of his moveset. So stop reaching.




"Stop reaching" he says to the guy quoting manga panels that clearly show King regenerating. He blew himself up, and was fine. Why? Because he regenerated.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _What do you think though of the fact that after a certain point King was blocking Zoro's attacks with the fire on his back and Zoro took special note of the fact that he's now guarding against him even when his fire is on ?_


Zoro was taunting King in order to make him lower his guard. King was in fire mode and blocking his hits since the beginning of the fight. Which is why King said the "biologically inferior" thing, he was trying to taunt Zoro back and weaken his resolve.

Similar to the "Why you dodging Kaido" from Luffy. It wasn't an actual sign that that CoCless G2 attack was actually capable of hurting Kaido, it was just Luffy taunting him

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> King is a superior version of Sanji.
> 
> Zoan powers which guarantee superior physical power in combination with lunarian durability > exoskeleton.
> 
> ...



_Sanji's boosts also guarantees superior physical power btw. Not only does he outright say that when he lists what he has "gained" but we already knew that since his child sister could bend steel bars as a kid, which is more than we've seen most Zoan users do just from the Zoan physical boosts tbh   

Also Ifrit Jambe is stated to be hotter than "regular fire" if we think DJ was "regular fire" and it has plasma effects that could hint at it reaching silly temperatures. I can see the easy reasoning that you're using here being true, but i would not be surprised if Ifrit is also meant to be just as hot or even more so going forward._


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Sanji's boosts also guarantees superior physical power btw. Not only does he outright say that when he lists what he has "gained" but we already knew that since his child sister could bend steel bars as a kid, which is more than we've seen most Zoan users do just from the Zoan physical boosts tbh  _



So bending steel bars is more impressive than no selling attacks that can scar a character whose durability shits on steel?





Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Also Ifrit Jambe is stated to be hotter than "regular fire" if we think DJ was "regular fire" and it has plasma effects that could hint at it reaching silly temperatures. I can see the easy reasoning that you're using here being true, but i would not be surprised if Ifrit is also meant to be just as hot or even more so going forward._



Hotter than fire but by how much? It hints at some superiority but not being on a completely other level like magma was portrayed over fire.

Still don't see how that helps against someone who lives with fire/magma his whole life.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Mercurial (Jan 10, 2022)

Are we joking?

Sanji felt damage from Queen's Henry Queen attack.
Put King in Sanji's shoes, he laughs off that (as he laughed off much stronger things).

King literally didn't care about blowing himself up or receiving one of the strongest attack from a Zoro already able to severely wound a Yonko with a special body like Kaido.
Put Sanji in King's shoes. He gets dismembered in the first issue and cut in half in the second (as he felt much weaker things).

There are worlds apart here.
King literally does what Sanji does but much better and/or without any limitation.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> So bending steel bars is more impressive than no selling attacks that can scar a character whose durability shits on steel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_Well i was talking specifically about the physical strength boost. Bending steel bars as a kid is the kind of stuff that was used to make child Big Mom look impressive when she let the bear out by doing so.

It's not something we've seen most Zoan grant at a base level to an otherwise weak individual such as a regular kid would be._


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## Kroczilla (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> lol context anyone?
> Zoro was struggling over not being able to hurt King. He then says he hit him several times but he's not even bleeding
> 
> Shit I wonder what that could possibly mean. We've seen King's face and chest. There were no wounds. THEY REGENERATED


You do realise this had everything to do with King's durability, right? Show me one single panel where Regen is stated to be part of King's moveset (apart from regular zoan recovery that is).




Strobacaxi said:


> Wrecked by Marco"


Posting a pic after King and Queen had exhausted Marco enough for King to edge him out doesn't change the fact that Marco could hurt him without issues even in his durability mode. Hence Sanji would do much worse damage to him in Ifrit Jambe mode given his superior AP.


Strobacaxi said:


> Yeah you keep ignoring everything the manga shows against your opinion, that's how an unbiased person debates lol
> Oh, and survive =/= take
> Kinemon survived because people don't die on this manga. He was one shotted and defeated. So great example to show King's durability, thanks buddy


I am not unbiased. Neither are you.
And you're right that people don't often die. But the point is Kineamon is still very much conscious and if anything could have been walking around but for his body getting split.



Strobacaxi said:


> Uhm, Zoro had to take an attack from King to hit him. He couldn't see him, he just got hit and counter attacked.


Nope. Zoro clearly blocked with his mouth guard and used the momentum of the attack to launch his counter. Hence why he wasn't shown to have taken any damage.


Strobacaxi said:


> Uhm by perceiving you mean get hit? lol


?????


Strobacaxi said:


> Any evidence that Zoro can't do the same? Because, again, Zoro is faster and more powerful than Queen. Give me one reason why Zoro can't perceive superior speeds?


The fact that Zoro isn't faster than King who in turn isn't faster than Marco, who couldn't do the same to Queen.


Strobacaxi said:


> So no, disappearing from Queen's sight isn't a far superior feat to disappearing from a faster character's sight


It's a good thing King was tracked just fine.


Strobacaxi said:


> Stop reaching" he says to the guy quoting manga panels that clearly show King regenerating. He blew himself up, and was fine. Why? Because he regenerated.


Again, show me where exactly Regen was stated to be part of his movesets. Also you do realise that on top of his durability, King is resistant to fire right? Saying "he blew himself up with his own flames" is proof of Regen just doesn't work


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Well i was talking specifically about the physical strength boost. Bending steel bars as a kid is the kind of stuff that was used to make child Big Mom look impressive when she let the bear out by doing so.
> 
> *It's not something we've seen most Zoan grant at a base level to an otherwise weak individual such as a regular kid would be.*_



And you blame me for that? 

Anyway King easily matched and overpowered a Zoro that been cutting through steel for a while now. So I don't get what you are trying to say here... It's irrelevant if Reiju bent some steel bars as a kid because King shits on her as an adult anyway.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Dunno (Jan 10, 2022)

Let's just clarify something here. Losing to King doesn't mean Sanji is weak at all. Just look at who the man has defeated this arc. Both Marco and Big Mom have gone down to him without managing to injure him in the slighest. I'm sure most Sanji fans would agree with me that those two are pretty good company.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Eustathios (Jan 10, 2022)

King extreme diff

Zoro >= King >= Sanji >= Queen

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> You do realise this had everything to do with King's durability, right? Show me one single panel where Regen is stated to be part of King's moveset (apart from regular zoan recovery that is).


Jesus you're thick

Where are the wounds he got from Zoro's onigiri? Why were his flames covering his wound after getting cut? Why was there no cut after the fire was there?



Kroczilla said:


> Posting a pic after King and Queen had exhausted Marco enough for King to edge him out doesn't change the fact that Marco could hurt him without issues even in his durability mode. Hence Sanji would do much worse damage to him in Ifrit Jambe mode given his superior AP.


Sure thing buddy. King still absolutely wrecked Marco without even going hybrid or leaving durability mode. He left that fight without a scratch or the slightest hint of being tired.

You keep repeating the same exact sentences that have been proven wrong time after time. Marco. Did. Not. Hurt. Him.

Jesus fucking Christ

We're done, enjoy your delusions

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> And you blame me for that?
> 
> Anyway King easily matched and overpowered a Zoro that been cutting through steel for a while now. So I don't get what you are trying to say here... It's irrelevant if Reiju bent some steel bars as a kid because King shits on her as an adult anyway.



_Well we can extrapolate from those base gains and we know for a fact that the gains can be improved the stronger an individual get's since the Germa kids were getting tested, getting different results between them, and further improving their results as they were training.

So think of how much stronger Sanji is without the boosts than kid Reiju without the boosts, so then you can infer that his boosts will also end up being on an entirely different level.

That's why i was looking at how the Zoan boosts would look on a kid Reiju when compared with the Exoskeleton boosts to compare them close to a base level._


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Well we can extrapolate from those base gains and we know for a fact that the gains can be improved the stronger an individual get's since the Germa kids were getting tested, getting different results between them, and further improving their results as they were training.
> 
> So think of how much stronger Sanji is without the boosts than kid Reiju without the boosts, so then you can infer that his boosts will also end up being on an entirely different level.
> 
> That's why i was looking at how the Zoan boosts would look on a kid Reiju when compared with the Exoskeleton boosts._





Means nothing because King is more durable with his zoan + lunarian DNA + CoA than Sanji with exoskeleton + CoA which is greatly portrayed by feats.

The feats clearly speak for King. Sanji gives him a good fight though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Means nothing because King is more durable with his zoan + lunarian DNA + CoA than Sanji with exoskeleton + CoA which is greatly portrayed by feats.
> 
> The feats clearly speak for King. Sanji gives him a good fight though.



_Yeah i wasn't comparing durability, i was talking about just the physical strength boosts and highlighting how those were impressive for the Germa modifications even at a base level when used by a child   _


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## Kroczilla (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Jesus you're thick
> 
> Where are the wounds he got from Zoro's onigiri? Why were his flames covering his wound after getting cut? Why was there no cut after the fire was there?


Where are the wound Queen got from Marco's claw attack? 



Where are the wounds Ulti got from Maser Canon? 



Wounds disappearing isn't a new phenomenon in One Piece.a

Where exactly was any cut shown when Zoro hit King with Lions song?

The author has literally taken pains to tell us the mechanics behind King's abilities. Frankly I don't know why you keep insisting on him having an ability that was never given to him.



Strobacaxi said:


> Sure thing buddy. King still absolutely wrecked Marco without even going hybrid or leaving durability mode. He left that fight without a scratch or the slightest hint of being tired.


King alternates between modes. Heck his ultimate attacks where done in "base" and durability mode so I'm not sure what point is being made here. Also given he had a partner to help weaken Marco + Marco having to protect the live floor, it's no surprise he came out intact. But facts are Marco can hurt him and Sanji would definitely hurt him even more.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Yeah i wasn't comparing durability, i was talking about just the physical strength boosts and highlighting how those were impressive for the Germa modifications even at a base level when used by a child  _



You would have a point if the Germa characters would have feats to justify a proportional increase since their childhood. If you remember correctly Sanji had trouble with a steel gate in PH, so a few bars that were used to hold a kid as captive in the past isn't the best measurement here.

Current M3 characters don't have any issues with steel at this point (unless it is specific steel like the wall that survived a gura punch at MF) and nothing suggests the Germa kids are superior in that regard. 

You try to hype Sanji with non-existent feats, when in reality it's questionable if he can even harm the likes of Kaido and King seriously.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 10, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> Are we joking?
> 
> Sanji felt damage from Queen's Henry Queen attack.
> Put King in Sanji's shoes, he laughs off that (as he laughed off much stronger things).
> ...


He left a scar due to CoC, calling it a "severe wound" is an unnesecary over-exaggeration to bolster up your argument.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mercurial (Jan 10, 2022)

Vivo Diez said:


> He left a scar due to CoC, calling it a "severe wound" is an unnesecary over-exaggeration to bolster up your argument.


The joined strength of Sulong Inu + Denjiro + Ashura Doji + Kinemon (the first three are commander level) was not enough to even re open the old scar, despite still giving Kaido a wound.
While Zoro's attack re open the old one and created a new one, so gave a much greater wound. So, the Scabbards wound was not severe, agile Zoro's wound was much deeper, hence a severe wound. The fact that Kaido is a crazy monster and tanked and went through doesn't minimize that.

Thought it was because a simple strength difference, but suddenly we have this guy suggesting that Kinemon with hypothetical CoC could scar Kaido.
Guess Pre TS Zoro with CoC could scar Kaido like Oden and Onigashima Zoro did. Good to know.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (Jan 10, 2022)

Vivo Diez said:


> He left a scar due to CoC, calling it a "severe wound" is an unnesecary over-exaggeration to bolster up your argument.


Ignoring the fact that Zoro was operating with half the bones in his body broken when he did so is an under-exaggeration though, so it cancels out. And ignoring the fact that Kaido actually blocked the attack is another under-exaggeration, so overall, the bias in the post is against King if anything.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> You would have a point if the Germa characters would have feats to justify a proportional increase since their childhood. If you remember correctly Sanji had trouble with a steel gate in PH, so a few bars that were used to hold a kid as captive in the past isn't the best measurement here.
> 
> Current M3 characters don't have any issues with steel at this point (unless it is specific steel like the wall that survived a gura punch at MF) and nothing suggests the Germa kids are superior in that regard.
> 
> You try to hype Sanji with non-existent feats, when in reality it's questionable if he can even harm the likes of Kaido and King seriously.



_Yeah but its outright stated that Sanjis physical strength was improved by the modifications when Sanji lists everything that he has gained.

It turns the base that its working with into a superhuman even as a child, so naturally when the base is already as strong as Sanji, those multipliers would make him appear that much more superhuman when compared to how strong he already was   _


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## Mercurial (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Yeah but its outright stated that Sanjis physical strength was improved by the modifications when Sanji lists everything that he has gained.
> 
> It turns the base that its working with into a superhuman even as a child, so naturally when the base is already as strong as Sanji, those multipliers would make him appear that much more superhuman when compared to how strong he already was  _


No one denies that he is hella strong.
Just not enough to compare and compete at certain levels.
Can you few die hard stans please cope with that?

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Yeah but its outright stated that Sanjis physical strength was improved by the modifications when Sanji lists everything that he has gained._



Which is nowhere clarified by how much. The feats don't show it properly either. For example Sanji had speed to vanish on WCI when he kicked Oven without the latter seeing him, post exo-skeleton he vanished too. Is he more vanishing than he is in WCI now? The best estimation we can draw from it is Queen >> Oven. But it still doesn't say anything concrete against someone like King, who is even stronger than Queen and a much faster character with far superior reaction and speed feats.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _It turns the base that its working with into a superhuman even as a child, so naturally when the base is already as strong as Sanji, those multipliers would make him appear that much more superhuman when compared to how strong he already was  _



And how strong is he to other characters? We know he is still below Zoro, so nothing changed in this power structure, no matter with how many multipliers you try to juggle here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lurko (Jan 10, 2022)

King mid diffs Sanji.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Which is nowhere clarified by how much. The feats don't show it properly either. For example Sanji had speed to vanish on WCI when he kicked Oven without the latter seeing him, post exo-skeleton he vanished too. Is he more vanishing than he is in WCI now? The best estimation we can draw from it is Queen >> Oven. But it still doesn't say anything concrete against someone like King, who is even stronger than Queen and a much faster character with far superior reaction and speed feats.
> 
> 
> 
> And how strong is he to other characters? We know he is still below Zoro, so nothing changed in this power structure, no matter with how many multipliers you try to juggle here.




_If you compare King and Queen vs Marco actually King doesn't really have that crazy reaction and speed feats. Marco connects just as easily with the same number of attacks against him as he does against Queen, and he's attacking King head on while Queen was trying to shoot his laser at a different target when Marco hit him the first time.

In the manga King only really looked fast in certain aspects against Zoro.


Well he took the full two handed swing of Hybrid Queen to his cheek and the force behind that didn't even fully bend his neck, let alone move his whole body.

His HM launched Queen through the whole floor and was stated to do significant lasting damage, his regular DJ move forced Queen on his knee and made him bleed internally, his basic DJ kick broke Queen modified arm, and his Ifrit Jambe launched Queen out of the Castle and Onigashima to another island.


In terms of speed vs Oven Sanji attacked him while Oven was trying to attack Pound. 

Against Queen Sanji can stand in front of Queen and then use a big move like HM while moving so fast that Queen can't even perceive that he is being attacked. 

Or he can move around in the same room as Queen with such speed that he can't be perceived at all for an extended period of time._


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 10, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> The joined strength of Sulong Inu + Denjiro + Ashura Doji + Kinemon (the first three are commander level) was not enough to even re open the old scar, despite still giving Kaido a wound.
> While Zoro's attack re open the old one and created a new one, so gave a much greater wound. So, the Scabbards wound was not severe, agile Zoro's wound was much deeper, hence a severe wound. The fact that Kaido is a crazy monster and tanked and went through doesn't minimize that.
> 
> Thought it was because a simple strength difference, but suddenly we have this guy suggesting that Kinemon with hypothetical CoC could scar Kaido.
> Guess Pre TS Zoro with CoC could scar Kaido like Oden and Onigashima Zoro did. Good to know.


I mean it's pretty obvious CoC had something to do with it, considering it's the only attack of Zoro's that properly scars him, its the time he unlocks CoC and Kaido puts the scar in the context of Zoro using CoC.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that anyone with CoC could scar him though, there's also his innate durability.


Dunno said:


> Ignoring the fact that Zoro was operating with half the bones in his body broken when he did so is an under-exaggeration though, so it cancels out. And ignoring the fact that Kaido actually blocked the attack is another under-exaggeration, so overall, the bias in the post is against King if anything.


None of this changes the fact that it wasn't a severe wound .It was a cool symbolic moment and feat for Zoro, but it didn't really impede Kaido in any significant way. Kaido even says "it'll leave a scar, that should be enough for you" and proceeds to go about his day.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _If you compare King and Queen vs Marco actually King doesn't really have that crazy reaction and speed feats. Marco connects just as easily with the same number of attacks against him as he does against Queen, and he's attacking King head on while Queen was trying to shoot his laser at a different target when Marco hit him the first time.
> 
> In the manga King only really looked fast in certain aspects against Zoro._



He also knocked Big Mom's ship down before anyone could react lol, so his feats against Zoro mean nothing because it's Zoro? When did Zoro ever had slow reactions or combat speed?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Well he took the full two handed swing of Hybrid Queen to his cheek and the force behind that didn't even fully bend his neck, let alone move his whole body._



And then Queen dragged Sanji through the debris and Sanji couldn't do anything against it?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _His HM launched Queen through the whole floor and was stated to do significant lasting damage, his regular DJ move forced Queen on his knee and made him bleed internally, his basic DJ kick broke Queen modified arm, and his Ifrit Jambe launched Queen out of the Castle and Onigashima to another island._



And? Since when is Queen as durable as King or Kaido?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _In terms of speed vs Oven Sanji attacked him while Oven was trying to attack Pound. _



So was he faster against Oven than he was against Queen?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Against Queen Sanji can stand in front of Queen and then use a big move like HM while moving so fast that Queen can't even perceive that he is being attacked.
> 
> Or he can move around in the same room as Queen with such speed that he can't be perceived at all for an extended period of time._



But will Queen go towards a girl in an empty room too?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> He also knocked Big Mom's ship down before anyone could react lol, so his feats against Zoro mean nothing because it's Zoro? When did Zoro ever had slow reactions or combat speed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_Queen lost his arm for that how didn't Sanji do anyhing about it   


Since he did not prove that speed feat head on against Oven he wasn't and again we have statements that Sanji has gained a significant strength and speed boost when Oda makes him list his gains 

Well Queen couldn't see him anyway before the girl made an appearance. Also Sanji called out the body part of Queen he's going to attack before he made him visible, so we can tell that he could perceive Queen regardless of the girl being there or not.

 Oda just inserted the girl and the mouse so that he can wrap up the whole Sanji vs Germa narrative nicely by him protecting the girl and the mouse this time, the way he couldn't in the past as a child or in WCI when the girl chef got beat up _


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Queen lost his arm for that how didn't Sanji do anyhing about it  _



So Sanji is still at steel level like his sister when she was a kid? I thought his multiplier was so massive he could destroy seastone by now ...



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Since he did not prove that speed feat head on against Oven he wasn't and again we have statements that Sanji has gained a significant strength and speed boost when Oda makes him list his gains _



So how strong and fast is he? Is he more vanishing than vanishing? And why do you believe it helps him against someone who is not a stationary fighter, who Sanji already had trouble with?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Well Queen couldn't see him anyway before the girl made an appearance. Also Sanji called out the body part of Queen he's going to attack before he made him visible, so we can tell that he could perceive Queen regardless of the girl being there or not._



So Queen couldn't react to Sanji despite being warned, which supports the fact that Queen can't compare to King and Zoro by extension, who have far superior feats.  



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Oda just inserted the girl and the mouse so that he can wrap up the whole Sanji vs Germa narrative nicely by him protecting the girl and the mouse this time, the way he couldn't in the past as a child or in WCI when the girl chef got beat up _



Cool story, doesn't change that Queen was busy with something else.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> So Sanji is still at steel level like his sister when she was a kid? I thought his multiplier was so massive he could destroy seastone by now ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_If you think kid Reiju could break a 1.3 + bil Commander appart sure   

Yeah, notably faster. Helps in every way obviously, faster is always better 

Or Sanji's just that fast which surprisingly sometimes it's possible for things to be meant to hype Sanji as well and not just make his opponents look bad _

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## Conxc (Jan 10, 2022)

Sanji doesn’t have the firepower to put King down. King is physically stronger, more durable, has better reactions, better mobility, more versatile skillset seeing how he can bring it to you or attack you from range. Sanji is faster, but that’s about it and that will only get you so far, and the gap i their speed isn’t all that significant. They both can disappear.

I will say that Sanji makes King work for it. He should be able to maintain the form that he showed against Queen in 1034 for a longer period of time if he’s fresh. Full knowledge will allow him to deal some damage at the right times, but he simply doesn’t have the output necessary to get the job done.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _If you think kid Reiju could break a 1.3 + bil Commander appart sure  _



She did bent steel bars, you are the one that brought this up. Theoretically if she has the opportunity she can bend Queens arm too. Now the 1.3 B commander is more impressive but when shitting on King previously and how multiplier Sanji is physically stronger than him you had no quarrels of using that argument.




			
				SirCurlyHat said:
			
		

> _*It's not something we've seen most Zoan grant at a base level to an otherwise weak individual such as a regular kid would be.*_



But now being a 1.3 B commander is more impressive enough for you to doubt it? Who are you trying to fool. 





Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Yeah, notably faster. Helps in every way obviously, faster is always better _



Cool so fast enough for a guy that fights stationary, barely moving. We already know that. Why would it be enough for someone who is much faster and more durable and far more lethal with his magma-fire than the guy Sanji just struggled to beat?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Or Sanji's just that fast which surprisingly sometimes it's possible for things to be meant to hype Sanji as well and not just make his opponents look bad _



Or Queen just has piss poor reactions as he proved over and over again?


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## Conxc (Jan 10, 2022)

Fun fact: Queen has blocked _*two* _attacks on panel since his debut. Once against Luffy’s basic punch in the Udon prison and once on the live floor against Sanji’s wheel attack, which also doubles as his only CoA feat on panel  .


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 10, 2022)

Fresh Zoro would win against King with high (_low_) diff. now. Sanji is giving Zoro high (_high_) to extreme (_lowest_) diff.

*Sanji *can finish King with *extreme *(_low_) diff.

Reactions: Optimistic 2 | Dislike 2


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## Beast (Jan 10, 2022)

King is stronger, Sanji is faster, King with his fire burning is more durable then Sanji, Current Sanji has better durability then speed mode King. Sanji can hurt King and King can hurt Sanji easier.

I would say their affinity for and against fire is about the same. King is more versatile as well given his zoan powers, fire abilities and swordsmanship.

king beats Sanji high diff 


Z boys trying to hard to wank King when truthfully we’ve seen him take damage from Marco and even unable to hurt an unaware Queen with his attack, who Sanji had no problem taking apart. There are manga panels, so no need for people try to create false narrative and use single panels when we’ve seen Both Sanji and King interact with each other (before Sanjis awakening) and with other people on similarish level.

king and Sanji are pretty similar in a way with stuff like heat, enhanced durability, flight and speed but I say that works against Sanji, who just unlocked these abilities and can’t keep it up for a long period of time compared to King who’s been doing this for however long.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## convict (Jan 10, 2022)

King comfortably for reasons already mentioned. He is much more versatile and has better durability, endurance, heat, and strength. King in his speed mode has better durability than Sanji let alone flame mode. Sanji won’t be able to do more than superficial damage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Useful 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> She did bent steel bars, you are the one that brought this up. Theoretically if she has the opportunity she can bend Queens arm too. Now the 1.3 B commander is more impressive but when shitting on King previously and how multiplier Sanji is physically stronger than him you had no quarrels of using that argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_I'm comparing the Zoan boosts at a base level not kid Reiju with King   

Basically if Kid Reiju ate King's DF as a child, would she get more physical boost from that and bend the steel bars or does the exoskeleton do more in that regard ? 

Not "fast enough". Sanji was way faster than the speed required to hit Queen, he was fast enough to beat Queen up at a speed that Queen can't even perceive 

Fun fact btw, Zoro compared the only attack he could not defend against from King with a laser beam, while he was able to cut through his "magma like fire".  Queen can spam lasers and has some special one's as well, and it's true that we didn't really see lasers be blocked in the manga directly by anyone. Like even Big Mom was hiding behind homies when Franky threatened her with a laser beam _


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 10, 2022)

Fresh current sanji wins high to extreme diff, he doesnt have to trade speed for durability and he has both in spades, he also has higher attack power feats with ifrit jambe. He also most likely has the speed to tag king in speed mode

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _I'm comparing the Zoan boosts at a base level not kid Reiju with King  _



How do you compare them if they don't exist?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Basically if Kid Reiju ate King's DF as a child, would she get more physical boost from that and bend the steel bars or does the exoskeleton do more in that regard ?_



No idea. I just wonder how you're so sure the exoskeleton is more impressive in a story with superhuman powers. Also comparing them in adult age, i still don't see how someone like Reiju is physically superior to King.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _
> 
> Not "fast enough". Sanji was way faster than the speed required to hit Queen, he was fast enough to beat Queen up at a speed that Queen can't even perceive _



No idea what you talk about. Might want to reread. Colour me shocked Sanji was faster than a guy who barely moves in a fight. 



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Fun fact btw, Zoro compared the only attack he could not defend against from King with a laser beam, while he was able to cut through his "magma like fire".  Queen can spam lasers and has some special one's as well, and it's true that we didn't really see lasers be blocked in the manga directly by anyone. Like even Big Mom was hiding behind homies when Franky threatened her with a laser beam _



Strawman


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

I thought Reiju wasn't genetically enhanced? Only the brothers?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> How do you compare them if they don't exist?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_That's a bad comparison you are making.

Say you gave King's DF to the bandit from chapter one, would he be as strong as King ?

That's why Sanji is that much more impressive with an exoskeleton than his siblings who were already weaker than he was without it   _


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## TheWiggian (Jan 10, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _That's a bad comparison you are making.
> 
> Say you gave King's DF to the bandit from chapter one, would he be as strong as King ?
> 
> That's why Sanji is that much more impressive with an exoskeleton than his siblings who were already weaker than he was without it  _



And he still just learned to smash steel?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> And he still just learned to smash steel?



_Better than average steel breaks by itself on contact with Sanji now without Sanji even using his physical strength  _


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## Dunno (Jan 10, 2022)

Vivo Diez said:


> None of this changes the fact that it wasn't a severe wound .It was a cool symbolic moment and feat for Zoro, but it didn't really impede Kaido in any significant way. Kaido even says "it'll leave a scar, that should be enough for you" and proceeds to go about his day.


Of course not. It wasn't what I would call a severe wound, even if it made Kaido shiver in fear. But since it was a wound that Zoro dealt in an incredibly nerfed state with an attack that Kaido actually blocked, it says quite a lot. This means that even if Asura is Zoro's highest end move, it most likely wasn't as strong as the attacks he used against King. 

I've done the math, and it looks like this: 

Zoro: 100 base AP
Half of your bones broken debuff: -60% AP
Healed by Miracle Medicine debuff: -20% AP

Asura: Deals damage equal to 5x AP
Average named move: Deals damage equal to 2x AP

Kaido's block: Reduces damage taken by 100

Thus, Asura dealt 5x40-100 = 100 damage to Kaido, which was enough to scar him, and Zoro's various attacks against King did 2x80 = 160 damage to King, which King took like it was nothing. 

The maths clearly shows that while it's true that Kaido didn't suffer immensely from Zoro's attack, King didn't suffer at all from stronger attacks, and thus he's is a hell of a tank. And there's no arguing against the maths.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 10, 2022)

Dunno said:


> Of course not. It wasn't what I would call a severe wound, even if it made Kaido shiver in fear. But since it was a wound that Zoro dealt in an incredibly nerfed state with an attack that Kaido actually blocked, it says quite a lot. This means that even if Asura is Zoro's highest end move, it most likely wasn't as strong as the attacks he used against King.
> 
> I've done the math, and it looks like this:
> 
> ...


Zoro when hes on his death bed is when hes strongest, its always been that way and it always will be that way. There is no math and even if there was this isnt it.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Conxc (Jan 10, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> *Zoro when hes on his death bed is when hes strongest, its always been that way and it always will be that way.* There is no math and even if there was this isnt it.


Selective fanfic.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 10, 2022)

I think Sanji wins based on scaling not the specific matchup.


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## Germa 66 (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King is faster, has more mobility, better CoA, better durability, stronger, hotter fire. Gotta love the delusion on your post
> 
> And yes, Sanji can very much be burned by King. He explicitly explained to us how DJ was as hot as he could go, and now Ifrit Jambe is as hot as he can go. King's fire is hotter than that, and as such, would burn the shit out of him
> 
> Fanboying like a maniac won't make Sanji stronger than he is lol


Loro fanboys are something fierce. Yeah keep telling yourself King is faster lmao, you lost all credibility with that one, I’m glad you started off with that so now I know to ignore you from now on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 10, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Selective fanfic.


How did he defeat mr1? He couldnt when he was healthy, he defeated him on his death bed. I'm supprised how little zoro fans know about their favorite character
Thats actually one of the coolest parts of zoro, he gets stronger the closer to death he is, read the king fight again


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> Loro fanboys are something fierce. Yeah keep telling yourself King is faster lmao, you lost all credibility with that one, I’m glad you started off with that so now I know to ignore you from now on.


Sanji disappeared from Queens sight
King disappeared from Zoros sight

Zoro is faster than Queen. Which is the better feat?
I'll make it easier for you mr fanboy, disappear from Zoro's sight, or disappear from Sanji's sight, which is the better feat?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Germa 66 (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Sanji disappeared from Queens sight
> King disappeared from Zoros sight
> 
> Zoro is faster than Queen. Which is the better feat?
> I'll make it easier for you mr fanboy, disappear from Zoro's sight, or disappear from Sanji's sight, which is the better feat?


So you aren’t just a clown but the whole damn circus???

Go get your eyes checked. King never disappeared from Zoro’s sight, he sent him rolling away and as Mosshead was tumbling he simply moved, and before he could fully recover and notice, King would accelerate to pop up right in front of him.

That doesn’t even begin to compare to Queen literally staring at Sanji standing completely still but the latter blips out completely as if he turned invisible right before his eyes with the same sound effect as the Stealth Black suit and all. What you said doesn’t compare to Queen not being able to see or sense Sanji flying around in circles throughout the room for an extended amount of time because he is so fast that eyes nor observation haki can perceive him.

Your poor reading comprehension is pitiful. What King did is a sloppy version of Soru if I want to be generous, something that last for a single instance. Sanji flat out vanishes without a trace, unperceivable until he chooses to be seen.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 2


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> Go get your eyes checked. King never disappeared from Zoro’s sight




 Good try fanboy


Germa 66 said:


> That doesn’t even begin to compare to Queen literally staring at Sanji standing completely still but the latter blips out completely as if he turned invisible right


Yep, so different





Germa 66 said:


> What you said doesn’t compare to Queen not being able to see or sense Sanji flying around in circles throughout the room for an extended amount of time because he is so fast that eyes nor observation haki can perceive him.


? 
You realize that moving so fast you turn invisible is the same speed whether it's 2 seconds or 5 minutes? The different between the 2 is stamina, not speed.



Germa 66 said:


> Your poor reading comprehension is pitiful. What King did is a sloppy version of Soru if I want to be generous, something that last for a single instance. Sanji flat out vanishes without a trace, unperceivable until he chooses to be seen.


lol 

Kuro was doing a badly mastered Soru that lasted for a long time. You can't even get it right with your own bad comparison examples lol

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Conxc (Jan 10, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> How did he defeat mr1? He couldnt when he was healthy, he defeated him on his death bed. I'm supprised how little zoro fans know about their favorite character
> Thats actually one of the coolest parts of zoro, he gets stronger the closer to death he is, read the king fight again


He beat Mr. 1 because he learned to cut steel at that point. If he fought Mr. 1 fresh right after that knowing how to cut steel, he stomps. Or do you think that Zoro at the end of that fight is stronger than he would be after the fight in a refreshed state?


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## A Optimistic (Jan 10, 2022)

King wins with high difficulty. Next arc Sanji should surpass King however. We’re near endgame, Sanji needs to become a top tier soon.


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## Germa 66 (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Good try fanboy
> 
> Yep, so different
> 
> ...


King was already gone when Zoro looked up. Learn to read and use common sense. They have different sound effects and portrayal for a reason lmaoo

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 10, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> King was already gone when Zoro looked up. Learn to read and use common sense. They have different sound effects and portrayal for a reason lmaoo


Yep, definitely.
That's why we have Zoro's "!!" surprise bubble in the same panel as King disappearing. He wasn't looking and didn't actually realize King disappeared, that surprised reaction was because there was a cockroach really close to his feet


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## Germa 66 (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yep, definitely.
> That's why we have Zoro's "!!" surprise bubble in the same panel as King disappearing. He wasn't looking and didn't actually realize King disappeared, that surprised reaction was because there was a cockroach really close to his feet


Clown just as I said.

Zoro looked up to see nothing there and was suprised. That’s why an emphasis bubble was placed where King used to be and not the standard vanishing sfx and sound like Sanji had, so how about you stop cherry picking and ignoring the context of the panels. You’re truly delusional.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2 | Dislike 2


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## BenMazino01 (Jan 10, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King is faster, has more mobility, better CoA, better durability, stronger, hotter fire. Gotta love the delusion on your post
> 
> And yes, Sanji can very much be burned by King. He explicitly explained to us how DJ was as hot as he could go, and now Ifrit Jambe is as hot as he can go. King's fire is hotter than that, and as such, would burn the shit out of him
> 
> Fanboying like a maniac won't make Sanji stronger than he is lol


How do you know he has better Armament ?? Any proof ??


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 11, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> Clown just as I said.
> 
> Zoro looked up to see nothing there and was suprised. That’s why an emphasis bubble was placed where King used to be and not the standard vanishing sfx and sound like Sanji had, so how about you stop cherry picking and ignoring the context of the panels. You’re truly delusional.


Jesus LOL
Glad you realize he looked up in the exact same panel we see King disappearing. 
Panels happen in the same micro second. IF you can see the effect from King disappearing in the exact same panel you yourself agree that Zoro was looking up, then King disappeared from Zoro's sight.

Stop making a fool of yourself.



BenMazino01 said:


> How do you know he has better Armament ?? Any proof ??


The fact that without CoC, Zoro the superior CoA user, couldn't overcome King's CoA

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Beast (Jan 11, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> So you aren’t just a clown but the whole damn circus???




@Strobacaxi 

Is only a lead performer around these parts.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## fenaker (Jan 11, 2022)

sanji fanboys creating their fanfictions about Only Sanji disappearing for People

@Germa 66 even if you disagreed your fanboyism ain't helping you against Panels - SNIP -

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## Germa 66 (Jan 11, 2022)

fenaker said:


> @Germa 66 even if you disagreed your fanboyism ain't helping you against Panels sanji - SNIP -


You already lost. Be quiet.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheRealSJ (Jan 11, 2022)

fenaker said:


> sanji fanboys creating their fanfictions about Only Sanji disappearing for People
> 
> @Germa 66 even if you disagreed your fanboyism ain't helping you against Panels - SNIP -


Fenaker please refrain from logging on to Fanverse from now on, as a heartfelt request.

We have already seen enough of you over at WG and the BDA server, go be toxic over there please and thank you

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Baroxio (Jan 11, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Good try fanboy
> 
> Yep, so different
> 
> ...


Both Kuro and Bellamy showed impressive speed that made it look like they vanished...and both of them immediately got their shit pushed in _by a Luffy who never actually lost track of them. _

Similarly, King disappears from Zoro's sight, but it's not like Zoro _lost track of him_ given the fact that Zoro successfully blocks and counterattacks. What Sanji is doing, vanishing completely from a high level opponent's CoO *for an extended period of time*, is super fucking impressive, and a step beyond any of the previous examples listed.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Conxc (Jan 11, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> Both Kuro and Bellamy showed impressive speed that made it look like they vanished...and both of them immediately got their shit pushed in _by a Luffy who never actually lost track of them._


There is nothing, and I mean nothing comparable about EB characters to current arc characters. The fact that you are trying to compare the two shows you have no leg to stand on.


Baroxio said:


> Similarly, King disappears from Zoro's sight, but it's not like Zoro _lost track of him_ given the fact that Zoro successfully blocks and counterattacks. What Sanji is doing, vanishing completely from a high level opponent's CoO *for an extended period of time*, is super fucking impressive, and a step beyond any of the previous examples listed.


Figuring out where King was going to attack from after vanishing is an extremely high level CoO feat, despite the false narrative that Zoro's CoO is shit. Blocking and countering successfully is an extremely high reaction feat. It's as simple as that. You don't downplay King's speed just so you don't have to acknowledge or admit that.

The exaggerated extended period of time was literally a few seconds, then he attacked and collapsed. Basic CoO is the ability to "see" what doesn't appear to be there, as stated by Rayleigh. Looks more to me like Queen's CoO isn't all that great, though maybe it would've helped if he wasn't distracted by the girl.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 11, 2022)

It's interesting how @Conxc tells everyone who cares to listen not to downplay either Zoro or King while in the very next breath, proceeds to downplay both Sanji and Queen. 

On the one hand, Zoro's Coo is just that good and King is just that fast. But Queen's Coo is just complete shit coz obviously Sanji can't be that fast. 

Also I think you missed the point @Baroxio was making which is pretty impressive in itself. But perhaps this will help 


Baroxio said:


> Both Kuro and Bellamy showed *impressive speed that made it look like they vanished*...and both of them immediately got their shit pushed in _by a *Luffy who never actually lost track of them. *_

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Terraforce (Jan 11, 2022)

People on this forum really are reading Two Piece if they think this isn't close. Y'all really think King low diffs Queen? The implication has always been that they're relatively close in rank but King is just ultimately superior.

A lot of people also ignore the fact that Sanji entered his Queen fight injured and didn't begin the fight with his buff. If Sanji wins it's definitely an extreme-diff fight, but he at least has a shot.


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## Conxc (Jan 11, 2022)

> Sanji vanished for a few seconds *not *an extended period of time as stated
-*Fact*

> Basic CoO allows you to know the location of enemies you can't see. Queen doesn't even check that box off
-*Fact*

> Queen was, in fact, distracted by a girl to the extent that he stopped mid fight after his opponent escaped his view to attack *her *instead.
-*Fact*

So all in all, because I called out your buddy for flat out lying and stated other facts regarding canon happenings...I'm downplaying. Still not worth the @.

Reactions: Like 4 | Optimistic 3


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## Kroczilla (Jan 11, 2022)

Conxc said:


> > Sanji vanished for a few seconds *not *an extended period of time as stated
> -*Fact*


Sanji completely escaped the perception of someone who had no issues tracking a speedster like Marco.
That is a fact


Conxc said:


> > Basic CoO allows you to know the location of enemies you can't see. Queen doesn't even check that box off


So now we've gone into the realm of "Does Queen even have Coo?"

Your true colours are showing





But I digress.

We have seen on MULTIPLE occasions that superior speed can outright overwhelm Coo abilities.
That is a fact.

For example, I can't go around saying that Pretimeskip ohm can track or even perceive Kizaru at full speed just coz he has Basic Coo. 


Conxc said:


> Queen was, in fact, distracted by a girl to the extent that he stopped mid fight after his opponent escaped his view to attack *her *instead.


There was a clear passage of time before the girl came into play. It doesn't change the fact that Queen couldn't perceive him.



Conxc said:


> So all in all, because I called out your buddy for flat out lying and stated other facts regarding canon


What were these "non-canon" facts exactly?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Conxc (Jan 12, 2022)

I'd challenge anyone here to show me where I said Sanji wasn't extremely fast. If someone can produce that @Soca @convict ban my account indefinitely and I will have no objection to it.

Now, for those of you that can read, or don't make it a habit of setting up their own arguments to tackle... I responded to a comment that said Sanji maintained this speed/invisibility for *an extended period of time*. Obvious to anyone that reads this manga, that is false. Sanji maintained this for *a few seconds.*


All of this happened in *a few seconds*. Even the word usage here by Osome "the fight could break out again *any second*" emphasizes how fast all of this is transpiring.

And regarding the *Queen* not being able to perceive him, he specifically states that Sanji is moving *faster than the eye can see*. He mentions nothing about him moving so fast that even *CoO* can't track him, which goes against the basis of what CoO is, which provides tracking of opponents you can't see via their aura. Even *actual *invisibility in OP does not erase presence. 

How about we make a deal. Provide a single time in this manga where someone is explicitly using CoO in a fight and their opponent moved so fast that they *could not track them* or *could not tell that they were still there.* If you can't do that, delete your account. This should be easy for you since according to you there are *multiple *instances like this. Show us one. And before you inevitably post a scan of this, posting someone failing to react to an opponent that they know is there is not an example of this. Even saying Queen *couldn't *perceive him is a stretch. He didn't even attempt to use CoO to find him. He left it up to Sanji to get tired and come back down exhausted then went to attack Osome.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 12, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I'd challenge anyone here to show me where I said Sanji wasn't extremely fast. If someone can produce that @Soca @convict ban my account indefinitely and I will have no objection to it.


You know, if you're calling out someone and being such a drama queen about it, the least you could do is actually tag them in your post.

My issue with you is your consistent downplay of everything Sanji related which goes well beyond this thread.

It's always a case of "his opponent was that weak" with you.


Conxc said:


> Now, for those of you that can read, or don't make it a habit of setting up their own arguments to tackle... I responded to a comment that said Sanji maintained this speed/invisibility for *an extended period of time*. Obvious to anyone that reads this manga, that is false. Sanji maintained this for *a few seconds.*


The passage of time isn't as clear as you are trying to make it out to be. We know for example that Sanji and Queen were having a rowdy bout up until Queen went invisible and his vanished from his perception.


During that period, the room seemed safe enough that both the rat and subsequently Otome who had no idea where it was, thought the room was completely empty. Obviously a period more than a few seconds had passed between them.


Conxc said:


> All of this happened in *a few seconds*. Even the word usage here by Osome "the fight could break out again *any second*" emphasizes how fast all of this is transpiring.




There's current a battle raging across the entirety of Onigashima. Saying that a fight could break out at again at any second doesn't indicate how much time has passed. All it does is tell us that the situation is pretty volatile.

If I was taking a walk home across say a dangerous part of the city, obviously it would be reasonable to conclude that conflict can break out at any moment in time during my trip. But that doesn't tell anyone how long my trip is actually going to take.



Conxc said:


> And regarding the *Queen* not being able to perceive him, he specifically states that Sanji is moving *faster than the eye can see*. He mentions nothing about him moving so fast that even *CoO* can't track him, which goes against the basis of what CoO is, which provides tracking of opponents you can't see via their aura. Even *actual *invisibility in OP does not erase presence.


Coo is usually used passively. It's not a technique characters need to expressly indicate that they are using. For example, Queen saw ice Oni Hyogoro as an immediate threat whom none of their forces on the live floor could stop and tried to take him out himself. Obviously an indication of Coo given it also tells one how strong X is.

Heck you are telling us about how great Zoro's Coo must be for tracking King despite the fact that there is zero statement that Coo was used. As @Baroxio pointed out, tracking "vanishing" characters has been shown since EB, well before we even knew the concept of Coo. But it's Zoro so obviously Coo was used, right?

Heck even if we for a minute take your "eye sight" argument seriously, this is someone that could easily perceive a surprise attack from Marco


Sure he obviously couldn't react in time to do anything about it, but that's not the point now, is it?
The fact that Sanji was invisible from his PoV (using pure speed) is a big deal. Especially when considering the fact that at minimum, Marco and King are peers.




Conxc said:


> How about we make a deal. Provide a single time in this manga where someone is explicitly using CoO in a fight and their opponent moved so fast that they *could not track them* or *could not tell that they were still there.*


I recall asking a simple question, so how about a simple answer.

Can Pretimeskip ohm track Kizaru at full speed?

Answer that question and we can have a discussion. Atleast with thaf, I will have an idea of exactly what version of you I'm dealing with.


Conxc said:


> Even saying Queen *couldn't *perceive him is a stretch. He didn't even attempt to use CoO to find him. He left it up to Sanji to get tired and come back down exhausted then went to attack Osome.


Coo has often been shown to be a passive ability for experienced fighters. Heck the M3 were literally just chilling when they all sense Caribou's presence on FI. Sanji senses ladies once they are in danger. Ulti and P1 immediately sensed that Luffy was not serious hurt by her attack. Other than special/advanced techniques, Coo is typically shown to be passive.

Also I just have to state that I find this interpretation of Raleigh's statement of Coo to be quite disingenuous. He was clearly referring to the ability to see those hidden from sight.

Heck he later used it to tell the exact no. Of beasts that Luffy couldn't defeat despite their being obviously hidden from his sight.

It's a reach to apply same to being able to perceive folks massively faster than you.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> Both Kuro and Bellamy showed impressive speed that made it look like they vanished...and both of them immediately got their shit pushed in _by a Luffy who never actually lost track of them._


This is just plain wrong, Bellamy never disappeared from Luffy's sight, and Luffy completely lost track of Kuro. Luffy said several times "He disappeared!" and he let himself be attacked by Kuro so he could grab and counter him. Reminds you of anyone?



Baroxio said:


> Similarly, King disappears from Zoro's sight, but it's not like Zoro _lost track of him_ given the fact that Zoro successfully blocks and counterattacks. What Sanji is doing, vanishing completely from a high level opponent's CoO *for an extended period of time*, is super fucking impressive, and a step beyond any of the previous examples listed.


I don't know how getting kicked in the face constitutes successfully blocking?

And I don't know why people keep bringing up extended period of time, when Queen literally saw him disappear and imediately lost focus and went for the prostitute. Why does his CoO matter? He wasn't focusing at all.

Zoro on the other hand, the faster more powerful and probably better CoO user compared to Queen, was 100% fully focused on King and lost track of him, having to get hit in order to hit back


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## Kroczilla (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> This is just plain wrong, Bellamy never disappeared from Luffy's sight






Strobacaxi said:


> Luffy completely lost track of Kuro.



I'm guessing he's referring to this moment from Luffy Vs Kuro 


Kuro "seemingly" disappears but Luffy was tracking him just fine. Which is the point. Unlike with Sanji against Queen, Zoro could clearly still track King's movements. Heck King has used said high speed move against him before then and Zoro tracked and countered him just fine. Not sure why that exact moment would be any different.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Conxc said:


> > Basic CoO allows you to know the location of enemies you can't see. Queen doesn't even check that box off



Sanji literally freed Momo despite Queen and.........King's presences. And none of them reacted to shit before they saw Momo flying mid air.
You guys love to paint invisibility as something easy to spot when the story literally states the contrary.
Sanji's CoO's feats can't be given to everybody.
We've even reached a point where many simply say that invisibility, an ability granted to Sanji, Queen and Shiryu is worthless.
Everything is better than simply giving props to the cook i guess.



The prostitute's introduction was only there to solve her assault's mystery, it did not change anything.
Sanji could track Queen (literally announced his attacks on an invisible target) who was unable to follow the SHs' moves. The superiority in CoO is clearly why he won the fight.
When disturbed by his transformation (something already highlighted in the Mirror world with Katakuri and at Kuri with Luffy, you can't properly use CoO when distraught), the same Sanji was unaware of the fact that Queen was the culprit. So during the battle Queen's invisibility actually worked vs Sanji.
This is no rocket science.... you need very good CoO to keep track of an "invisible" opponent  which Sanji has proven to got, contrary to Queen..... or King.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> *Spoiler*:


What is this supposed to show? You can clearly see his trail, this has nothing to do with disappearing like Sanji or King



Kroczilla said:


> Kuro "seemingly" disappears but Luffy was tracking him just fine. Which is the point. Unlike with Sanji against Queen, Zoro could clearly still track King's movements. Heck King has used said high speed move against him before then and Zoro tracked and countered him just fine. Not sure why that exact moment would be any different.


You mean the moment where Kuro stops and says "What"? He literally stopped behind Luffy and talked, is Luffy supposed to be deaf or something?

This is Luffy vs Kuro's speed:


*Spoiler*: __ 









Notice how he can do nothing but be cut?

He let himself be cut and grabbed Kuro, the only way he could handle his speed:

*Spoiler*: __ 










Kroczilla said:


> Unlike with Sanji against Queen, Zoro could clearly still track King's movements.


Except he couldn't. Hence having to be hit before hitting back.



Kroczilla said:


> Heck King has used said high speed move against him before then and Zoro tracked and countered him just fine. Not sure why that exact moment would be any different.


Because King was taking him more seriously and was going all out

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Sanji literally freed Momo despite Queen and.........King's presences. And none of them reacted to shit before they saw Momo flying mid air.


It's almost like CoO isn't constantly active and Queen and King weren't in a fight so didn't have it up


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## Kroczilla (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> It's almost like CoO isn't constantly active and Queen and King weren't in a fight so didn't have it up


The M3 weren't in a fight when they sense Caribou's presence. The idea that one has to be actively engaged in combat to use Coo goes against what we've seen in the past


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> It's almost like CoO isn't constantly active and Queen and King weren't in a fight so didn't have it up



_They were in full state of alert after the scabbard infiltration, guarding and trying to execute their most valuable target at the time, so why would they not use the one skill that provides them an enhanced awareness of their surroundings ?

Even more so after Shinobu made an attempt to rescue Momonosuke  _

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> The M3 weren't in a fight when they sense Caribou's presence. The idea that one has to be actively engaged in combat to use Coo goes against what we've seen in the past


I didn't say combat is necessary, only that CoO isn't always active. 

Both Sanji and Zoro only noticed when Luffy said something. Caribou was chilling in the island for the whole arc, but Luffy only noticed when he started stalking Shirahoshi. This makes you think CoO is always active? lol



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _They were in full state of alert after the scabbard infiltration, guarding and trying to execute their most valuable target at the time, so why would they not use the one skill that provides them an enhanced awareness of their surroundings ?
> 
> Even more so after Shinobu made an attempt to rescue Momonosuke _


You gave the answer yourself.

Because Shinobu tried and they caught her.

Fact is, King had absolutely no trouble finding Sanji once he tried.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> It's almost like CoO isn't constantly active and Queen and King weren't in a fight so didn't have it up



Flash alert, CoA is not always active either.
They were literally keeping the leader of the Samurai Alliance, someone King stopped shinobu from freeing  a few minutes earlier. And they weren't on their guard, on high alert , that's your take?



And they still failed despite having been warned a few minutes earlier. This is not an excuse, it makes it worse.
Sanji freed Momo if invisibility was that easy to deal with, the two most powerful commanders of the Beast Pirates would not have taken such a big L. Again this is no rocket cience.


Worse, one does not simply then give Sanji's superior feats in that category to King, because it helps one's agenda.
Sanji dealt with an invisible foe without issue, King did not.
Wokesmoke Godji is portrayed as the superior CoO user, which is clear for any honest reader to see.......
King targeted near Momo to follow the Vinsmoke, he then clearly showed that he had no idea regarding how Sanji's powers worked, the cook explaining to him that it was only visual.
Which once again proved that King was unable to track Sanji's presence when invisible.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Because Shinobu tried and they caught her.
> 
> Fact is, King had absolutely no trouble finding Sanji once he tried.



_So proof that them standing there is not enough to deter attempts to save Momonosuke would make them lower their guard and not attempt to be as aware as possible of their surroundings while on guard duty ?   


That's not quite the fact though. Fact was that King was entirely oblivious of Sanji's presence and only reacted when Momonosuke could be seen flying away from the platform _

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> So proof that them standing there is not enough to deter attempts to save Momonosuke would make them lower their guard and not attempt to be as aware as possible of their surroundings while on guard duty ?


Yes, successfully stopping an attempt makes people less on guard because they assume it's not happening again so soon. It's an actual problem in real life security.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> Fact was that King was entirely oblivious of Sanji's presence and only reacted when Momonosuke could be seen flying away from the platform


In other words.... King has no trouble finding Sanji as soon as he actually tried

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _So proof that them standing there is not enough to deter attempts to save Momonosuke would make them lower their guard and not attempt to be as aware as possible of their surroundings while on guard duty ?
> 
> 
> That's not quite the fact though. Fact was that King was entirely oblivious of Sanji's presence and only reacted when Momonosuke could be seen flying away from the platform _



These takes get dumber by the day i swear to God.
You've got a pet (her master could not find) and a gueisha hiding before both fighters go invisible, and who do not react at any point after that, thinking that the room is empty.

The OL: Queen made noises that's why and how Sanji spotted him...... and why he could pinpoint his neck. Floorboards were creacking.

King stops Shinobu's sneak rescue attempt. Sanji immediatly succeeds a few seconds later.
The OL: King felt safe because he just prevented a ninja rescue attempt a few moments earlier. He felt perfectly safe at that point...... mid war, mind you.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Sanji freed Momo if invisibility was that easy to deal with, the two most powerful commanders of the Beast Pirates would not have taken such a big L. Again this is no rocket cience.


Tell me, is King blind? Because he only realized Shinobu was there after she made noise trying to release Momo

It's almost like they didn't expect anyone to take Momo and didn't really have their guard up


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yes, successfully stopping an attempt makes people less on guard because they assume it's not happening again so soon. It's an actual problem in real life security.
> 
> 
> In other words.... King has no trouble finding Sanji as soon as he actually tried



_I assume that's a problem because real life security is not in constant state of high alert as the circumstances  would demand for those who took upon themselves to guard Momonosuke in Kaido's absence while the enemy forces have infiltrated their castle.

Or does it often happen in real life security that while intruders have breached the guarded perimeter, the security forces leave their guards down as soon as a single one of the intruders is dealt with ?   

He's entirely unaware of Sanji until Sanji moves to protect Momonosuke and makes himself visible _


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## Beast (Jan 12, 2022)

I like how the Z boys are so precise with their timing… one second for Zoro is 5 mins, and 5 minutes for everybody else is just 1 second.

Zoro slows down an attack for no more then 1 second and these same people will be try to use free speech as an excuse for it being longer then wait for it… 1 second even though the manga specifically details it as no more then a single second.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Tell me, is King blind? Because he only realized Shinobu was there after she made noise trying to release Momo
> 
> It's almost like they didn't expect anyone to take Momo and didn't really have their guard up




His sight was not useful since the rescuer was invisible. Stay focused.

In the middle of a war, after the execution of the opposing Alliance leader was interrupted, after their own boss was attacked by said leader's retainers, after just having prevented a rescue. That's the circumstances in which the two commanders were relaxed and not focused.
That's the hill you're going to die on?

I'm not going to engage in a back and forth with you regarding something so easy to get. You're disingenuous, we both already know that.
Simple question:
If for argument purpose Fujitora and Katakuri were the one standing in front of Momo, anyone is freeing the next Shogun before getting tagged by one of the two guards? Specially seconds after an unsuccessful attempt?

Stop playing......


This shit is not complicated at all, only needs one ingredient: honesty, give props to Sanji.
He's very fast and has very good CoO. That's literally it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> I assume that's a problem because real life security is not in constant state of high alert as the circumstances would demand for those who took upon themselves to guard Momonosuke in Kaido's absence while the enemy forces have infiltrated their castle.
> 
> Or does it often happen in real life security that while intruders have breached the guarded perimeter, the security forces leave their guards down as soon as a single one of the intruders is dealt with ?


I don't know why you people are just straight up pretending like Sanji didn't free Momo at the same time King was dealing with Shinobu

This isn't a situation of "Oh Shinobu was here, let me pay more attention in the future" it was "Oh look at Shinobu, let me throw her away, oh look at Momo's chain being broken, let me take care of that now"

The sheer fact that they didn't realize Shinobu, the fat non invisible woman, was there proves without a doubt they weren't using CoO and explains why they didn't realize Sanji was there either


Sir Curlyhat said:


> He's entirely unaware of Sanji until Sanji moves to protect Momonosuke and makes himself visible


Except Sanji only made himself visible after blocking King's kick


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> If for argument purpose Fujitora and Katakuri were the one standing in fornt of Momo, anyone is freeing the next Shogun before getting tagged by one of the two guards?


You mean the two characters who are known for constantly using CoO?

lol


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## Beast (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yes, successfully stopping an attempt makes people less on guard because they assume it's not happening again so soon. It's an actual problem in real life security.




loooooool did this nigha try to really use this an excuse?

@Firo 
Come check this out.  

The bias is just outrageous.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> after just having prevented a rescue. That's the circumstances in which the two commanders were relaxed and not focused.
> That's the hill you're going to die on?


*During them preventing a rescue

It happened at the same time stop being dishonest. They didn't realize the fat visible woman was there. They weren't using CoO. They didn't realize the invisible man was there either. BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T USING COO


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## Beast (Jan 12, 2022)

‘King felt safe after stopping one rescue’ 
‘It happens in real life’

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> You mean the two characters who are known for constantly using CoO?
> 
> lol



Which is exactly the point. It's about mastery and skill.
King's CoO has never been highlighted, contrary to his toughness, durability and AP.




Strobacaxi said:


> *During them preventing a rescue
> 
> It happened at the same time stop being dishonest. They didn't realize the fat visible woman was there. They weren't using CoO. They didn't realize the invisible man was there either. BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T USING COO



King did not realize that the fat woman he stopped was there?


Moreover, Which one is it? King was on high alert or not because he relaxed after dealing with Shinobu.
Because if he was dealing with Shinobu and any threat at the time he should have been hyper focused.
You're lost my friend.




Beast said:


> ‘King felt safe after stopping one rescue’
> ‘It happens in real life’



You did not know, the safest window to rob a bank is immediatly after an unsuccessful heist attempt.
Guards are pretty chill during that window.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 12, 2022)

Its gonna be hilarious when zoro fights shiliew and cant see him with his CoO. If basic CoO could see invisibility, invisible would be useless and wouldn't be introduced as a power for endgame opponents. These zorotards are something else

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> You did not know, the safest window to rob a bank is immediatly after an unsuccessful heist attempt.
> Guards are pretty chill during that window.


@Strobacaxi is a top security expert

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Which is exactly the point. It's about mastery and skill.
> King's CoO has never been highlighted, contrary to his toughness, durability and AP


So Sanji sucks at CoO because he didn't realize Caribou was in FI until Luffy pointed it out? CoO isn't always active, you decided to pick the only 2 characters who apparently do have it always active. Dishonest to say the least.



Mylesime said:


> King did not realize that the fat woman he stopped was there?


No. He didn't.





Mylesime said:


> Moreover, Which one is it? King was on alert or not because he relaxed after dealing with Shinobu.
> Because if he was dealing with Shinobu and any threat at the time he should have been hyper focused.
> You're lost my friend.


Retard take is retarded

King dealt with Shinobu. At the same time Sanji freed Momo. King then dealt with Sanji. 

Why the fuck would he focus his CoO when he has the threat in a chokehold? Jesus christ



Mylesime said:


> You did not know, the safest window to rob a bank is immediatly after an unsuccessful heist attempt.
> Guards are pretty chill during that window.


Actually, yes. It is the best time to rob a bank is after an unsuccessful heist attempt. 

The workers are likely traumatized and not expecting a second robbery.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> I don't know why you people are just straight up pretending like Sanji didn't free Momo at the same time King was dealing with Shinobu
> 
> This isn't a situation of "Oh Shinobu was here, let me pay more attention in the future" it was "Oh look at Shinobu, let me throw her away, oh look at Momo's chain being broken, let me take care of that now"
> 
> ...



_Actually King is shown to react before even us the readers get to properly see Shinobu in a panel



and before Momonosuke himself is made aware of her presence.


Something King is not shown to do with Sanji, with him only reacting alongside Queen when they hear the broken chains



and see Momonosuke flying away from the platform



_

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Actually King is shown to react before even us the readers get to properly see Shinobu in a panel


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

_
The immediate follow up to that is King reacting to her presence in the panel i've posted   _


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _The immediate follow up to that is King reacting to her presence in the panel i've posted  _


In other words, Shinobu got there, climbed the pole without anyone realizing, and King noticed her while she was trying to open metalic chains? Which make... noise?

__

Which is very different from Sanji getting there and King only noticing him when he opens the metalic chains which make noise

Difference being, of course, that Sanji broke the chains with a kick while Shinobu wasn't able to break the chains, because everything else is the exact same situation


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> In other words, Shinobu got there, climbed the pole without anyone realizing, and King noticed her while she was trying to open metalic chains? Which make... noise?
> 
> __



_We are explicitely shown King reacting as soon as Shinobu appears there, and before she reaches for the chains and Momonosuke notices her   _


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> So Sanji sucks at CoO because he didn't realize Caribou was in FI until Luffy pointed it out? CoO isn't always active, you decided to pick the only 2 characters who apparently do have it always active. Dishonest to say the least.



And i'm the disingenuous one.
We don't use a character lower end feats to evaluate him. Sanji has impressive CoO's feats, King has none. Zero.



Strobacaxi said:


> Actually, yes. It is the best time to rob a bank is after an unsuccessful heist attempt.
> 
> The workers are likely traumatized and not expecting a second robbery.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _We are explicitely shown King reacting as soon as Shinobu appears there, and before she reaches for the chains and Momonosuke notices her  _


Do... Do you think Shinobu was just chilling there? She was in the chains, she started trying to open it, King noticed her, and the next panel is her thinking "They won't come off". You know, the kind of thing you'd say after you've been trying to take them off for a while but failing. Not something you say imediately after you try for the first time


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> And i'm the disingenuous one.
> We don't use a character lower end feats to evaluate him. Sanji has impressive CoO's feats, King has none. Zero.


King, the guy who attacked the invisible man he supposedly couldn't perceive? Has no CoO feats? OK buddy


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Do... Do you think Shinobu was just chilling there? She was in the chains, she started trying to open it, King noticed her, and the next panel is her thinking "They won't come off". You know, the kind of thing you'd say after you've been trying to take them off for a while but failing. Not something you say imediately after you try for the first time


_
King's reaction is literally the very next panel after Shinobu is shown to have made it up the scatfold.

It's explicitly shown as the very first thing, before we see Shinobu moving to release Momonosuke and him noticing her _


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King, the guy who attacked the invisible man he supposedly couldn't perceive? Has no CoO feats? OK buddy



Did you miss the fact that he could see Momo?
That qualifies as a CoO feat in your book?
Man you're starving.





The dude was daring Sanji to vanish clearly indicating that he had no clue regarding how Sanji's powers worked. He did not feel his presence acurately. If that was the case he would have known that it was only a visual effect, something Sanji literally explains to him with his next sentences.....

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King, the guy who attacked the invisible man he supposedly couldn't perceive? Has no CoO feats? OK buddy



_Didn't you just spend the last few pages arguing that he did not perceive Sanji because he was not using his CoO ? 

It's also odd that you argue against King's legitimate CoO feat of perceiving Shinobu before Queen or Momonosuke did _

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _King's reaction is literally the very next panel after Shinobu is shown to have made it up the scatfold.
> 
> It's explicitly shown as the very first thing, before we see Shinobu moving to release Momonosuke and him noticing her _


Shinobu was shown already in the chains. She wasn't there just chilling, she was trying to open them. 
Do you think that Shinobu was unnoticed while climbing to that floor, past King and Queen, and climbing the wodden cross, but suddenly when she stopped King noticed her? Or do you think it's more likely that she got to the chains, started trying to get the chains off and King heard her?

King explicitly says "That was sloppy work", clearly implied Shinobu fucked up and he only noticed her because she made noise.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Shinobu was shown already in the chains. She wasn't there just chilling, she was trying to open them.
> Do you think that Shinobu was unnoticed while climbing to that floor, past King and Queen, and climbing the wodden cross, but suddenly when she stopped King noticed her? Or do you think it's more likely that she got to the chains, started trying to get the chains off and King heard her?
> 
> King explicitly says "That was sloppy work", clearly implied Shinobu fucked up and he only noticed her because she made noise.



_Or her infiltration as a Ninja was clumsy work because she was noticed by King as soon as she made it up there, which is what we see happening in the panels with Oda focusing directly on King noticing her as soon as she's shown in his vicinity, and before she's shown to do anything else   _


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Did you miss the fact that he could see Momo?


Did you miss the fact that he didn't attack Momo, but Sanji?
I mean it was clear as day, we even got the reaction from King standing still and focusing before attacking. Clearly using CoO while Queen freaked out "THE KID IS FLYING!?!?!?!?"



Mylesime said:


> The dude was daring Sanji to vanish clearly indicating that he had no clue regarding how Sanji's powers worked. He did not feel his presence acurately.


Incredibly how an easy conversation just whooshes you



You skipped the part where Sanji said invisibility was just a visual thing? Where it was clear King was telling him to use his unknown power to become intangible and not just invisible and Sanji explained it to him?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> Didn't you just spend the last few pages arguing that he did not perceive Sanji because he was not using his CoO ?


Why are you actively trying to pretend you can't read my posts?

King not using CoO hears Shinobu:



King not using CoO hears Sanji:



King has no idea why Momo is flying (Still not using CoO)


King stops and focuses (Starts using CoO)


King, using CoO, realizes what's happening and starts moving:


King attacks Sanji, not Momo:

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 2


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Or her infiltration as a Ninja was clumsy work because she was noticed by King as soon as she made it up there


Except he didn't, did he. She passed through him and suddenly he noticed her while she was on the chains

I wonder what could possibly have happened while Shinobu was on the chains to suddenly make King notice her when he hadn't noticed her through her whole ordeal of actually getting to the chains


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King, the guy who attacked the invisible man he supposedly couldn't perceive? Has no CoO feats? OK buddy


He attacked momo and sanji blocked it, he didnt see sanji, i sware youre the 5th zorotard that made this mistake

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Did you miss the fact that he didn't attack Momo, but Sanji?
> I mean it was clear as day, we even got the reaction from King standing still and focusing before attacking. Clearly using CoO while Queen freaked out "THE KID IS FLYING!?!?!?!?"
> 
> 
> ...




_So your argument is that King doing his job and giving chase after he got over the surprise of him hearing Momonosuke's chains breaking and him seeing Momonosuke suddenly flying away is solid evidence that he was in fact perceiving Sanji, because otherwise he would have what, just let Momonosuke fly away from them ?   _


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _So your argument is that King doing his job and giving chase after he got over the surprise of him hearing Momonosuke's chains breaking and him seeing Momonosuke suddenly flying away is solid evidence that he was in fact perceiving Sanji, because otherwise he would have what, just let Momonosuke fly away from them ?  _


King stopping to focus before attacking specifically where Sanji was is evidence that he perceived Sanji, yes.


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## Freechoice (Jan 12, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> King is basically a stronger version of Sanji: stronger fire (compared to magma), stronger physical attacks, same speed (but without any massive stamina drain), pseudo-invulnerability a thousand times better than just esoskeleton (that even Queen's Vinsmoke tricks could damage).
> 
> King wins mid diff,maybe high diff at worst. Sanji can't even hurt him for real (Pre Adv CoC Zoro couldn't, and I dare anyone to argue that his hits aren't stronger than Current Sanji's).


If you believe that King can mid diff Sanji and think Zoro high diffed King then the wank has rotted your brain and you're beyond saving.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King stopping to focus before attacking specifically where Sanji was is evidence that he perceived Sanji, yes.



_He's tracking Momo and we see him get over his initial surprise and giving chase.  There's no direct clue of him noticing Sanji, and there's direct evidence later on through dialogue that he still did not understand how Sanji's powers work and wether he's just invisible or can outright disappear   

No action performed by King only makes sense if he can perceive Sanji, nor does it makes sense that he would have done anything different if all he could see was Momonosuke flying away from them, which is what happened _

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Heart Over Blade (Jan 12, 2022)

Actually King was attacking Momo and invisible Sanji blocked it. Both the anime and King's follow up dialogue confirmed it.  He said to give back Momo because Momo needs to be eliminated. After Momo's escape from the live hall there was no order from King to capture Momo alive either. His orders to everyone included eliminating Momo. 


Also Sanji's leg was outstretched in the manga's clash while King's was still bent. Meaning Sanji kicked first and intercepted King, who should've kicked earlier if he knew Sanji's position.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Almageste (Jan 12, 2022)

A theoretical fresh DNA awakened Sanji would still lose to King very high diff IF he can only keep Ifrit Jambe for a short period of time.
However, if Ifrit Jambe is meant to replace diable jambe, due to it being a straight upgrade, just like how diable jambe became standard for Sanji starting the following arc, then a fresh Sanji would very high/extreme diff King instead, as he would have sustainable attack power to damage king, by using coo/speed to harm his speed mode just like Zoro, and durability/regen to endure King’s attacks.

So extreme diff for King if Sanji has very limited usage of Ifrit Jambe, and in favour of Sanji if Ifrit jambe is meant to last (which will probably be the case starting next arc).


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

_I don't see why Sanji couldn't use Ifrit Jambe for a lot of attacks.

With his new body its the same as using DJ prior to his upgrades. 

Most you could argue is that hes limited by his Haki reserves since he is coating his legs in CoA, but if it got to the point where he s all out of Haki hes likely fighting a losing battle anyway   _


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _I don't see why Sanji couldn't use Ifrit Jambe for a lot of attacks.
> 
> With his new body its the same as using DJ prior to his upgrades.
> 
> Most you could argue is that hes limited by his Haki reserves since he is coating his legs in CoA, but if it got to the point where he s all out of Haki hes likely fighting a losing battle anyway  _


I think he said he needed the exo durability to handle the extra heat


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> I think he said he needed the exo durability to handle the extra heat



_Sure, and that's just something he has now right ?   _


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Sure, and that's just something he has now right ?  _


Yes it is

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> What is this supposed to show? You can clearly see his trail, this has nothing to do with disappearing like Sanji or King


The only thing we can actually see are the points of impact where Bellamy was hitting the various parts of the surrounding fixtures. Saying we can see his trail is like saying we can see King's blur. 


Strobacaxi said:


> You mean the moment where Kuro stops and says "What"? He literally stopped behind Luffy and talked, is Luffy supposed to be deaf or something?


Look at Luffy's fists. They clearly changed position while Kuro was doing his vanishing trick 

Kuro had a faster mode which Luffy then couldn't track, which he used when he got bloodlusted (and was even wrecking his own men).


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 12, 2022)

_Btw Sanji is the only character in the manga to demonstrate continous high speed movement at vanishing speed *while in full control of all of his actions and entirely aware of his surroundings.*

Kuro basically had no control at all, and Hakuba was instinctively attacking everything around while Cavendish was passed out.

Sanji can observe Queen, Osome and the mouse at all times, reflect on his abilities and exactly how and at what point he's going to attack Queen, as well as drive by inbetween Queen and Osome to pick up and shelter the mouse in his jacket before starting to actually attack Queen.

That's some crazy heightened awareness he needs to have to still have a clear picture of everything around him as well as every single one of his actions and position at any point in time while moving that fast._

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Btw Sanji is the only character in the manga to demonstrate continous high speed movement at vanishing speed *while in full control of all of his actions and entirely aware of his surroundings.*
> 
> Kuro basically had no control at all, and Hakuba was instinctively attacking everything around while Cavendish was passed out.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Almageste (Jan 12, 2022)

Gotta say: one of these days I wish someone would clearly explain, without ifs or buts, why good feats for Sanji need to always be defended by Baker McKenzie lawyers and McKinsey consultants instead of just being accepted as they are, with a hint of jolly acceptable fanboyism like they are for Zoro.

- Zoro beats an opponent: Zoro is awesome OMG!
- Sanji beats an opponent: That opponent is shit, no crazy mountain slicing shown therefore that opponent is the weakest of XXX YC tier.
- Zoro struggles against an opponent: the foe is strong and badass, would shit on Sanji
- Sanji struggles against an opponent: that opponent is a clown, simp, and Zoro would have low diffed him.

I know I’m exaggerating a bit but this is what reading a lot of posts around here feels like. Almost sad really.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 12, 2022)

Almageste said:


> Gotta say: one of these days I wish someone would clearly explain, without ifs or buts, why good feats for Sanji need to always be defended by Baker McKenzie lawyers and McKinsey consultants instead of just being accepted as they are, with a hint of jolly acceptable fanboyism like they are for Zoro.
> 
> - Zoro beats an opponent: Zoro is awesome OMG!
> - Sanji beats an opponent: That opponent is shit, no crazy mountain slicing shown therefore that opponent is the weakest of XXX YC tier.
> ...


The one thing you're wrong about in this post is saying that you're exaggerating. This is no exaggeration at all.

Reactions: Funny 7 | Winner 1


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## Conxc (Jan 12, 2022)

The passage of time is clear as day. The interactions are fluid...not even a single minute passed. If we slap on _free speech_ (well how about) the time shrinks as well if we omit the time they each spent thinking to themselves. This wouldn't be odd. _Characters have been moving at supersonic+ speeds since EB, right? _Oh, I'm sorry. were we not supposed to apply that here?

And @Beast Say what you want about the Hakai debate, but I stated that he blocked it for a few seconds, which is the difference of 1 or 2 seconds, not an extended period of time. 

CoO isn't always passive. In a case where, as you say, a character "could not perceive" (as stretch btw factoring in CoO) a target, it's not unreasonable to say he simply was not using it as if he were, that would go against what basic CoO is. That is a definition that you cannot refute as it is stated in plain text what basic usage entails. Even actual invis does not erase presence. If CoO was used, he would have known where Sanji was or at least would have realized that he was still there in the room. And we know Zoro used CoO there because he knew exactly where King would attack him from after he vanished. The attack was instant.


Mylesime said:


> Sanji literally freed Momo despite Queen and.........King's presences. And none of them reacted to shit before they saw Momo flying mid air.
> You guys love to paint invisibility as something easy to spot when the story literally states the contrary.
> Sanji's CoO's feats can't be given to everybody.
> We've even reached a point where many simply say that invisibility, an ability granted to Sanji, Queen and Shiryu is worthless.
> Everything is better than simply giving props to the cook i guess.


Whats up Myles. Been a minute.

CoO is a hard counter to invis until stated otherwise dude. We have an ironclad definition for what *basic *CoO grants a user. We know that invis doesn't erase presence. King and Queen probably were not using CoO there given the information that we have. Why not? PIS. There's a ton of that in this manga as we all know.


Mylesime said:


> The prostitute's introduction was only there to solve her assault's mystery, it did not change anything.
> Sanji could track Queen (literally announced his attacks on an invisible target) who was unable to follow the SHs' moves. The superiority in CoO is clearly why he won the fight.
> When disturbed by his transformation (something already highlighted in the Mirror world with Katakuri and at Kuri with Luffy, you can't properly use CoO when distraught), the same Sanji was unaware of the fact that Queen was the culprit. So during the battle Queen's invisibility actually worked vs Sanji.
> This is no rocket science.... you need very good CoO to keep track of an "invisible" opponent  which Sanji has proven to got, contrary to Queen..... or King.


I'm not saying he couldn't, but you can't deny that Queen was completely distracted which could explain why he didn't use CoO to try and find Sanji. He completely disregarded the fight to chase Osome. Again, a huge, heaping, steaming pile of PIS. If you look at my first post, all I said was that Sanji did not maintain that speed for _an extended period of time _because he didn't. That's a flat out lie. Only a few seconds passed. Doesn't take away from it being one of the best speed feats in the manga as I have said in other threads.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 12, 2022)

Almageste said:


> Gotta say: one of these days I wish someone would clearly explain, without ifs or buts, why good feats for Sanji need to always be defended by Baker McKenzie lawyers and McKinsey consultants instead of just being accepted as they are, with a hint of jolly acceptable fanboyism like they are for Zoro.
> 
> - Zoro beats an opponent: Zoro is awesome OMG!
> - Sanji beats an opponent: That opponent is shit, no crazy mountain slicing shown therefore that opponent is the weakest of XXX YC tier.
> ...



Funny thing because that's usually the standart formula for Zoro's opponents. Look how King is the weakest YFM all of a sudden.


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## Beast (Jan 12, 2022)

Conxc said:


> The passage of time is clear as day. The interactions are fluid...not even a single minute passed. If we slap on _free speech_ (well how about) the time shrinks as well if we omit the time they each spent thinking to themselves. This wouldn't be odd. _Characters have been moving at supersonic+ speeds since EB, right? _Oh, I'm sorry. were we not supposed to apply that here?
> 
> And @Beast Say what you want about the Hakai debate, but I stated that he blocked it for a few seconds, which is the difference of 1 or 2 seconds, not an extended period of time.


nah buddy, it’s called free speech for a reason, it can’t be used to determine time. You think while moving at whatever Mach speeds, Luffy or anyone would have the time to say  their attack names during battle?
It’s a fiction, it’s not logical at all but that is the law of fiction and anime all around the world, you can’t use it to suit your pint and start making up your own calculations of how long things took when the source specifically states the time frame already.

doesn’t matter one or two seconds or 5 seconds, it’s the implication behind it… what was stated to be an instant… you and many others try to add your own Headcanon about the length of time as if that somehow changes anything, Whether you word your pint as Zoro slowing it down or stopping it, it doesn’t change the portrayal Oda intended to set with that scene. Same thing with Apoo and the antidote, you trying to add a couple seconds is just pure Headcanon and doesn’t abode to rules of the dome. You can look up what free speech in anime means for yourself.


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## Conxc (Jan 12, 2022)

Beast said:


> nah buddy, it’s called free speech for a reason, it can’t be used to determine time. You think while moving at whatever Mach speeds, Luffy or anyone would have the time to say  their attack names during battle?
> It’s a fiction, it’s not logical at all but that is the law of fiction and anime all around the world, you can’t use it to suit your pint and start making up your own calculations of how long things took when the source specifically states the time frame already.
> 
> doesn’t matter one or two seconds or 5 seconds, it’s the implication behind it… what was stated to be an instant… you and many others try to add your own Headcanon about the length of time as if that somehow changes anything, Whether you word your pint as Zoro slowing it down or stopping it, it doesn’t change the portrayal Oda intended to set with that scene. Same thing with Apoo and the antidote, you trying to add a couple seconds is just pure Headcanon and doesn’t abode to rules of the dome. You can look up what free speech in anime means for yourself.


The thing is. Idc about the couple seconds lmfao. The feat is the feat. You wanna say it was a single second, have at it, but it's hilarious to me that you and the other people that took exception to what I said have no problem with guys in this thread claiming Sanji was moving at this speed for an extended period of time when in all actuallity only a few seconds passed. And if we apply the free speech here the time is even less, but surprise. *No one even brought it up in regards to this.* Like I said, it's an uproar when a character you don't like is being discussed, but crickets when one you like or don't mind is. That's just funny to me.


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## Almageste (Jan 12, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Funny thing because that's usually the standart formula for Zoro's opponents. Look how King is the weakest YFM all of a sudden.


Honestly, I don’t find that much downplay for Zoro nor his opponents. And while I don’t think King is the weakest first mate, the only other first mates we know of are:
- Ben Beckmann (unknown variable but has a lot of hype as shanks’s vice captain, in a balanced crew and the moon to his sun)
- Marco (who arguably looked superior to King in their on-panel exchanges, but then again neither King nor Queen needed to get very serious with him as they had numerical superiority + Marco was forced to keep everyone safe and healed)
- Katakuri, who has future sight/awakening but seemed a bit of a glass cannon considering he didn’t take nearly as much punishment as Luffy.

Not easy but I think that Katakuri is weaker than King not by virtue of the latter being Zoro’s opponent or having a higher bounty, but because I don’t see Katakuri putting down someone who is more durable/enduring than WCI Luffy, whereas King has the speed to land some powerful hits here and there on Kata.

Doesn’t matter anyways since they’re all in the same tier, more than a match for each other.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 12, 2022)

Almageste said:


> Honestly, I don’t find that much downplay for Zoro nor his opponents. And while I don’t think King is the weakest first mate, the only other first mates we know of are:
> - Ben Beckmann (unknown variable but has a lot of hype as shanks’s vice captain, in a balanced crew and the moon to his sun)
> - Marco (who arguably looked superior to King in their on-panel exchanges, but then again neither King nor Queen needed to get very serious with him as they had numerical superiority + Marco was forced to keep everyone safe and healed)
> - Katakuri, who has future sight/awakening but seemed a bit of a glass cannon considering he didn’t take nearly as much punishment as Luffy.
> ...



I could bring up the whole WCi can beat King now but it would cause a shitstorm. Alot of people also believe Sanji can beat King too, so i see a clear agenda regarding mossheads opponents.


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Whats up Myles. Been a minute.
> 
> CoO is a hard counter to invis until stated otherwise dude. We have an ironclad definition for what *basic *CoO grants a user. We know that invis doesn't erase presence. King and Queen probably were not using CoO there given the information that we have. Why not? PIS. There's a ton of that in this manga as we all know.



Long time no see. Happy new year.



That's not how it works tough.
You have to support your claim with proofs or examples, not the other way around.
Without those elements,  it's simply baseless i'm sorry.
Specially when claiming that a power possessed by so many commanders is worthless.
I'm not saying that CoO can't counter invisibility,  heck we just witnessed Sanji dealing with it. What i'm saying is that not everyone can do it. An average CoO can't deal with it like we've seen time and time again. We also saw that focus was important,  which doesn't apply to CoO only but all forms of haki.
Heck Sanji failed to see Queen when he went invisible to hurt Osome the first time.

Queen failed to deal with it , King failed, heck Doflamingo could not deal with it when Absalom saved Moria at Marineford.
Downplaying Sanji's CoO proficiency and mastery is not a proper justification to grant it to everyone and his mother.
Specially when King was unable to counter it properly on panel. He lost Momo.
*One needs to prove that he/she is able to detect invisible foe with CoO, we don't simply grant that level of proficiency like with every other power......*
Using PIS carelessly is a sloppery road, we can dismiss Every single feat with this.....





Conxc said:


> I'm not saying he couldn't, but you can't deny that Queen was completely distracted which could explain why he didn't use CoO to try and find Sanji. He completely disregarded the fight to chase Osome. Again, a huge, heaping, steaming pile of PIS. If you look at my first post, all I said was that Sanji did not maintain that speed for _an extended period of time _because he didn't. That's a flat out lie. Only a few seconds passed. Doesn't take away from it being one of the best speed feats in the manga as I have said in other threads.



Queen could not do shit once Sanji went invisible, which contradicts the notion that an average use of observation can counter invisibility.  He was hopeless and planed to wait until Sanji exhausted himself.
Conclusion:He had already lost.
Remove Osome from the equation and he would have stood there like a headless chicken waiting for an opening whereas his opponent could perfectly detect him.....
Queen already lost when they went all out.


Once again,  i logically gave up on you guys a long time ago when it comes to Sanji.
But this is getting ridiculous.
The explanation is simple, this thing is not complicated and is not explained by PIS (it was strangely set up and built up, but Queen didn't lose because of Osome, he lost because he wasn't invisible for Sanji hence why he announced his attack "collier shot",  who was invisible from his perspective unfortunately for the Dino).

This shit is very simple, Sanji's CoO is very good,not Queen's. How many example Oda needs to come up with before folks simply aknowledge that Sanji's CoO is excellent.
King and Queen did not use CoO at any point because of PiS?
That 's what it has come to?
That shit makes any sense according to you guys? They failed to keep the opponent's leader just because they weren't careful?
Queen also decided to research and develop an useless ability that he used against someone that he knew used it regularly?

Seriously

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## Kroczilla (Jan 12, 2022)

@Mylesime it's obvious to anyone whose been following the story that invisibility isn't something easily countered. If it was just a case of using basic Coo, then it would be a shit tier ability which clearly isn't the case given who Oda just gave the invisibility fruit to.

Also said this before, but I completely disagree with the notion @Conxc is  pushing. Yes, Coo can probably help against regular invisibility (though you would probably need to be a specialist or an expert), but that wasn't what Sanji was doing. He was simply moving that fast. 

Just for a picture of exactly what I'm talking about, let's have a look at how Coo users observe the world around them 




It essentially allows you to see the spirit of others hence why it can rate strength (remember Teach in impel down knew Luffy had gotten much stronger since they last met based on the strength of Luffy's spirit) and see through barriers/folks in hiding. 

Saying that due to that, it can also perceive opponents going faster that a user can ordinarily perceive sound like a massive reach imho. Coz all you're doing is seeing their spirits. If said "spirit" is moving faster than you, then it would make sense that you wouldn't be able to perceive said spirit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 12, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> @Mylesime it's obvious to anyone whose been following the story that invisibility isn't something easily countered. If it was just a case of using basic Coo, then it would be a shit tier ability which clearly isn't the case given who Oda just gave the invisibility fruit to.
> 
> Also said this before, but I completely disagree with the notion @Conxc is  pushing. Yes, Coo can probably help against regular invisibility (though you would probably need to be a specialist or an expert), but that wasn't what Sanji was doing. He was simply moving that fast.
> 
> ...



I would add to that that Ussop and Fujitora are not regular CoO users. Fujitora might be the best at it, and Ussop is obviously gifted and sensible to that type of haki in particular.
And there are sub categories that offers different options when it comes to observation (intents, auras, etc)

What some are basically claiming is that opening or closing ones eyes doesn't make any difference for any haki user in the serie....
Let that sink in.
Of course Fujitora could deal with Sanji's invisibility. Might be the best at it.
King tough? He had trouble with it on panel, that was literally drawn for fuck sake.

CoO is a tool, there are levels to it, a notion of skill and mastery.
Heck why did Luffy use Snakeman, relying on change of directions vs Katakuri , trying to hit him with strange angles, exploiting his blind spots?
Because CoO is obviously not absolute, and the level of mastery varies depending on the character.
For argument sake who is likely to handle invisibility better, all things equal (if the two opponent aren't comparable overall , would obviously not change anything) between Coby and Helmeppo?
The answer is obvious.
Can't believe this even needed to be stated.

Sanji , a YC2 and YFM have an ability?
The OL: this shit is useless.
I had given up on you guys when it comes to Sanji,yet  you still disapointed me.
Call me impressed.

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## Baroxio (Jan 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> What is this supposed to show? You can clearly see his trail, this has nothing to do with disappearing like Sanji or King
> 
> 
> You mean the moment where Kuro stops and says "What"? He literally stopped behind Luffy and talked, is Luffy supposed to be deaf or something?
> ...


Luffy might not be fast enough to completely avoid the damage, but he's still clearly manipulating his body to mitigate damage. Moreover, he's grabbing Kuro at the same time Kuro is cutting him, and in the perfect direction to actually grab onto his shirt. This literally wouldn't be possible if Luffy wasn't capable of tracking him. Luffy is clearly reacting to Kuro's speed in this instance.

The same thing happens with Koby. Koby uses Soru and "disappears" from Luffy's sight. However Luffy never looses track of him, and immediately counters.



Disappearing from sight =/= losing track of the opponent.

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## Conxc (Jan 12, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Long time no see. Happy new year.


Same to you my guy


Mylesime said:


> That's not how it works tough.
> You have to support your claim with proofs or examples, not the other way around.
> Without those elements,  it's simply baseless i'm sorry.
> Specially when claiming that a power possessed by so many commanders is worthless.
> ...


I'm not disagreeing with you. I think it's silly also, but moving forward, I think Oda will exploit the focus thing to make it make sense. As you pointed out, Sanji not being able to tell where Queen was the first time around was solely because he wasn't focused and was distraught over his transformation. Had he been focused and using CoO I think he would've been able to 100% tell where he was. 


Mylesime said:


> Queen failed to deal with it , King failed, heck Doflamingo could not deal with it when Absalom saved Moria at Marineford.
> Downplaying Sanji's CoO proficiency and mastery is not a proper justification to grant it to everyone and his mother.
> Specially when King was unable to counter it properly on panel. He lost Momo.
> *One needs to prove that he/she is able to detect invisible foe with CoO, we don't simply grant that level of proficiency like with every other power......*
> Using PIS carelessly is a sloppery road, we can dismiss Every single feat with this.....


I mean, we know what the actual *advanced *form of CoO does, and so far, only Luffy and Katakuri are confirmed users of that form. Other than that, there's really no other distinction within CoO use. What Rayleigh explained to Luffy in 597 was literally the basis of each form of Haki. The least of what you can expect to be able to do once you learn the form of Haki. From there, you have the advanced forms.

A prime example: The moment Usopp unlocked CoO, he was able to see Luffy, Law, and Sugar's presence despite not being able to actually _see _them. That is completely in line with the basic definition of the Haki that Ray gave us: the ability to "_see_" even who you can't see.


Mylesime said:


> Queen could not do shit once Sanji went invisible, which contradicts the notion that an average use of observation can counter invisibility.  He was hopeless and planed to wait until Sanji exhausted himself.
> Conclusion:He had already lost.
> Remove Osome from the equation and he would have stood there like a headless chicken waiting for an opening whereas his opponent could perfectly detect him.....
> Queen already lost when they went all out.
> ...


The extent to what I have been saying is that Sanji didn't maintain his speed for an extended period of time, but a few seconds. Is that agreeable?

I never said that he wouldn't have still decisively defeated Queen. I have said multiple times that if fresh with his DNA powers he beats him mid diff at worst. I even said that Queen's CoO is shit, like you said and your buddy got all flustered. As you can see, there's no winning here.



Now in response to your buddy:

Ironically the scans you posted...help my argument? Namely the Usopp one. Fresh out the box Usopp was able to see the 3 auras plain as day of 3 people he could not see. This is no different than if they were invisible because invis does not erase presence. Unless we're gonna say that Usopp woke up super dangerous that day and is just a CoO master already, then this is as good as a concession.

Regarding your speed comment, again, Sanji is not erasing his presence. No matter how fast you move, you don't erase your presence. What you're saying now tip toes into the realm of reaction and what specific characters are capable of reacting to. We saw Rayleigh easily intercept Kizaru in his light form, anticipating exactly where he would go to try and chase the SHs. No matter how fast someone is moving, their aura should still be present and visible. Doesn't help that Queen was completely distracted either. He literally watched Sanji vanish and left it up to him to get tired and come back around then completely zeroed in on Osome.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 12, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I mean, we know what the actual *advanced *form of CoO does, and so far, only Luffy and Katakuri are confirmed users of that form. *Other than that, there's really no other distinction within CoO use*


Well that's a load of bullshit. There are clearly those who are far more gifted in Coo use than others. Characters such as Enel, Ussop, Coby, Aisa etc. Have shown Coo that has been noted to be far beyond the norm. Sanji would naturally fall into that category given that he is stated by Oda to be a specialist in its use.


Conxc said:


> A prime example: The moment Usopp unlocked CoO, he was able to see Luffy, Law, and Sugar's presence despite not being able to actually _see _them. That is completely in line with the basic definition of the Haki that Ray gave us: the ability to "_see_" even who you can't see.


Yeah, Ussop is quite clearly a prodigious talent in his field as are all other SHs. Just because Ussop does something doesn't mean every run in the mill Coo user can do the same.


Conxc said:


> Ironically the scans you posted...help my argument? Namely the Usopp one. Fresh out the box Usopp was able to see the 3 auras plain as day of 3 people he could not see. This is no different than if they were invisible *because invis does not erase presence*


We don't know exactly how invisibility works to make this conclusion. Especially when the statement most frequently used everytime invisibility is utilised is that the person "disappeared". Also there would be absolutely no point to Shiryuu having that power since any fodder with Coo can see him perfectly, according to you atleast.


Conxc said:


> Unless we're gonna say that Usopp woke up super dangerous that day and is just a CoO master already, then this is as good as a concession.


I mean, it wouldn't be the first time Oda gave a protagonist character insane power ups. Not to mention, Ussop has been able to snipe comfortably from beyond the range of normal sight since Ennies Lobby. Coo to get a better view of his target is obviously the next logical step.


Conxc said:


> We saw Rayleigh easily intercept Kizaru in his light form, anticipating exactly where he would go to try and chase the SHs.


This is pretty disingenuous of you. Raleigh is an elite lvl fighter and equal to Kizaru. The fact that he can track and intercept Kizaru speaks to the fact that he is simply that strong. Especially when we consider that straight out the gate, his student was able to easily dodge laser fire.


Conxc said:


> No matter how fast someone is moving, their aura should still be present and visible


Again, this is an insane amount of reach. There is absolutely no proof that Coo works in that manner. Coo is effectively a radar. Objects can move fast enough to completely escape detection. There is no reason why Coo would be different.

I asked a question earlier and still haven't gotten an answer.  I'm guessing even you can see how ridiculous that logic is but aren't ready to admit it. Which is okay btw.


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## Conxc (Jan 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Well that's a load of bullshit. There are clearly those who are far more gifted in Coo use than others. Characters such as Enel, Ussop, Coby, Aisa etc. Have shown Coo that has been noted to be far beyond the norm. Sanji would naturally fall into that category given that he is stated by Oda to be a specialist in its use.


That still doesn't add another layer of distinction within the technique. There is CoO and there is AdCoO (FS), period. No matter the range, the basis of CoO is the same. Funny you'd ignore the fact that Enel's CoO range was amplified by his DF. This also has dick to do with my initial stance in this thread. 


Kroczilla said:


> Yeah, Ussop is quite clearly a prodigious talent in his field as are all other SHs. Just because Ussop does something doesn't mean every run in the mill Coo user can do the same.


Usopp displayed basic CoO upon unlocking it. If you're claiming this is an advanced form of the technique, identify it or concede.


Kroczilla said:


> We don't know exactly how invisibility works to make this conclusion. Especially when the statement most frequently used everytime invisibility is utilised is that the person "disappeared". Also there would be absolutely no point to Shiryuu having that power since any fodder with Coo can see him perfectly, according to you atleast.


We know exactly how invis works. The same way it's worked since it was introduced. We know that it does not erase presence. You would not be able to track an invis target by things like...floorboards creaking, smell, footprints etc. All of those things still amount to a presence. The awakening to the SSnM could be an actual erase of presence. 


Kroczilla said:


> I mean, it wouldn't be the first time Oda gave a protagonist character insane power ups. Not to mention, Ussop has been able to snipe comfortably from beyond the range of normal sight since Ennies Lobby. Coo to get a better view of his target is obviously the next logical step.


Extended range =/= advanced CoO. That's the huge mistake you're making. The basis of being able to see auras is CoO. How far you can see does not change that. Extended range is not some subcategory of CoO like FS is.


Kroczilla said:


> This is pretty disingenuous of you. Raleigh is an elite lvl fighter and equal to Kizaru. The fact that he can track and intercept Kizaru speaks to the fact that he is simply that strong. Especially when we consider that straight out the gate, his student was able to easily dodge laser fire.


For one, he is not equal to Kizaru, but that's another debate. The point is Kizaru is moving at the speed of light, literally and Rayleigh is able anticipate and intercept which way he went thanks to CoO. The speed of light is faster than Sanji was moving (or is this downplay also?). This means that it is possible to track fast opponents with CoO which shoots down your hair-brained excuse of "lol well sanjimoveso fast that his aura move so fast 2 so u cant see it." Either *Queen's* CoO is dumpster tier or he didn't use it there, but you cannot say that dude moves so fast that *no one* can see him with CoO.


Kroczilla said:


> Again, this is an insane amount of reach. There is absolutely no proof that Coo works in that manner. Coo is effectively a radar. Objects can move fast enough to completely escape detection. There is no reason why Coo would be different.


Ray says hi, again.


Kroczilla said:


> I asked a question earlier and still haven't gotten an answer.  I'm guessing even you can see how ridiculous that logic is but aren't ready to admit it. Which is okay btw.


I'm not paying much attention to you tbh. I @ you here because I was feeling generous, but I know how "debating" with you goes. You're gonna just deny the facts, come up with some fanfic that justifies your stance in your mind, attempt to be witty, etc. You can respond, but I don't think I'm gonna @ you again. You've also completely morphed my initial stance into something that *you *wanted to argue. You also posted Usopp's CoO awakening as "how CoO users see the world around them." I guess upon realizing that the scan strengthened my own argument, now you're trying to pedal what Usopp did as some kind of advanced form of CoO. If you're gonna continue to do things like that, I certainly will not indulge any further.

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## Kroczilla (Jan 13, 2022)

Conxc said:


> That still doesn't add another layer of distinction within the technique. There is CoO and there is AdCoO (FS), period. No matter the range, the basis of CoO is the same. Funny you'd ignore the fact that Enel's CoO range was amplified by his DF. This also has dick to do with my initial stance in this thread.




I mean sure, you aren't completely wrong I guess, but you completely miss the point i.e. there are those more gifted at Coo use. Key word, GIFTED (Enel's improved range on the basis of his DF doesn't change the point at all). 

Let's give an example using the infamous M3 Coo moment at FI.
When Luffy sensed Caribou's presence, to him it seemed like a wild beast. Sure he did eventually go up there and found out Caribou eventually, but that's hardly precise now, is it? 


Contrast that with Coby (one of the aforementioned gifted persons I mentioned) who was able to precisely locate and more importantly, identify exactly who she was and take appropriate actions.

See the difference. Again Key word, GIFTED (no where in my post did I mention some more "advanced" form or whatever).





Conxc said:


> Usopp displayed basic CoO upon unlocking it. If you're claiming this is an advanced form of the technique, identify it or concede.


See above. As I said previously, Ussop is clearly a prodigious talent when it comes to Coo sight. 




Conxc said:


> We know exactly how invis works. The same way it's worked since it was introduced. We know that it does not erase presence. You would not be able to track an invis target by things like...floorboards creaking, smell, footprints etc. All of those things still amount to a presence. The awakening to the SSnM could be an actual erase of presence.


?????

Why the fuck would physical presence factor when we've already established that Coo sight allows one view the spirit of the target? Causing physical impact on your environment would obviously be counterproductive to the point of being invisible and frankly an intelligent fighter without knowledge of haki would be able to detect an invisible opponent if they left such obvious physical signs, but it doesn't mean that basic Coo sight will be enough to see the spirit of an invisible person, particularly when we've seen several instances of the ability being likened to a disappearance act by skilled haki users.

Which is sort of my point. We don't know the full mechanics of how invisibility works. But on the basis of precedence as well as a key opponent getting that fruit, it's very possible that the spirit of the user is also somewhat masked as well.



Conxc said:


> Extended range =/= advanced CoO. That's the huge mistake you're making. The basis of being able to see auras is CoO. How far you can see does not change that. Extended range is not some subcategory of CoO like FS is.


Again, where is this mention of "advanced Coo" coming from? 

As I already showed with Coby, it's not just a matter of range but precision as well.


Conxc said:


> For one, he is not equal to Kizaru, but that's another debate. The point is Kizaru is moving at the speed of light, literally and Rayleigh is able anticipate and intercept which way he went thanks to CoO. The speed of light is faster than Sanji was moving (or is this downplay also?). This means that it is possible to track fast opponents with CoO which shoots down your hair-brained excuse of "lol well sanjimoveso fast that his aura move so fast 2 so u cant see it." Either *Queen's* CoO is dumpster tier or he didn't use it there, but you cannot say that dude moves so fast that *no one* can see him with CoO.



I'm guessing that's a concession on the Ohm Vs Kizaru point which tbh is GG no Re but let's continue.

Ray is able to intercept Kizaru because he's gain enough strength to operate and perceive attacks moving at that speed. A basic Coo user wouldn't be able to do shit in that circumstances. Unless you want to make the argument that lasers aren't light speed, dodging and perceiving objects moving at that speed is something that virtually all high tiers are capable of. Luffy himself easily dodged laser fresh off his training with Ray.

For the sake of emphasis , I am not saying that anyone can currently move at light speed, but the fact is tracking/following that level of speed is something that can achieve once enough strength has been gained. It's not something any run in the mill user can suddenly wake up and achieve.


Conxc said:


> Ray says hi, again.


Hi Ray.


Conxc said:


> You've also completely morphed my initial stance into something that *you *wanted to argue.


Your stance is that Basic Coo can track any speed. You made no distinction as to the strength of the user. 





Conxc said:


> You also posted Usopp's CoO awakening as "how CoO users see the world around them." I guess upon realizing that the scan strengthened my own argument, now you're trying to pedal what Usopp did as some kind of advanced form of CoO.


?????

I genuinely need help here. What is with this consistent mention of advanced Coo?


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## Conxc (Jan 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> I mean sure, you aren't completely wrong I guess, but you completely miss the point i.e. there are those more gifted at Coo use. Key word, GIFTED (Enel's improved range on the basis of his DF doesn't change the point at all).


No, bud. The keyword here is FANFIC. Like I said before, the basis of CoO is being able to see auras. There isn't a single argument that you can make for extended range to change that. You're arguing a silly point that has nothing to do with what's being discussed, as usual. I'll post this *again*



There is no refuting what basic CoO is. It is spelled out for you right here.


Kroczilla said:


> Let's give an example using the infamous M3 Coo moment at FI.
> When Luffy sensed Caribou's presence, to him it seemed like a wild beast. Sure he did eventually go up there and found out Caribou eventually, but that's hardly precise now, is it?


Are you fucking serious?

The three of them sensed his presence and was able to *immediately *make their way to *exactly *where he was. At this point just concede. No need to even try to save face to this extent.


Kroczilla said:


> Contrast that with Coby (one of the aforementioned gifted persons I mentioned) who was able to precisely locate and more importantly, identify exactly who she was and take appropriate actions.
> 
> See the difference. Again Key word, GIFTED (no where in my post did I mention some more "advanced" form or whatever).


None of this deviates away from the basis of being able to see auras.


Kroczilla said:


> See above. As I said previously, Ussop is clearly a prodigious talent when it comes to Coo sight.


See above. As I said previously, this does not deviate from the basis of CoO that allows the user to see auras.


Kroczilla said:


> ?????
> 
> Why the fuck would physical presence factor when we've already established that Coo sight allows one view the spirit of the target? Causing physical impact on your environment would obviously be counterproductive to the point of being invisible and frankly an intelligent fighter without knowledge of haki would be able to detect an invisible opponent if they left such obvious physical signs, but it doesn't mean that basic Coo sight will be enough to see the spirit of an invisible person, particularly when we've seen several instances of the ability being likened to a disappearance act by skilled haki users.


Ahh, you still don't get it, huh. If a target still has a physical presence, then their presence most certainly has not been erased. If their presence has not been erased, then they will still have an aura. If they still have an aura, then they are still visible to CoO. We know for a fact that invis in OP so far does not erase the user's presence. The evidence of this is that you can use things even outside of CoO to track them.


Kroczilla said:


> Which is sort of my point. We don't know the full mechanics of how invisibility works. But on the basis of precedence as well as a key opponent getting that fruit, *it's very possible that the spirit of the user is also somewhat masked as well.*


This is pure make believe. There is a clear function for invis in OP so far.


Kroczilla said:


> Again, where is this mention of "advanced Coo" coming from?
> 
> As I already showed with Coby, it's not just a matter of range but precision as well.


You are treating extended range as a sub-type of CoO when it has nothing to do with seeing auras which is basic CoO. You are confused.


Kroczilla said:


> I'm guessing that's a concession on the Ohm Vs Kizaru point which tbh is GG no Re but let's continue.


It's a stupid question. Again, you set up these silly arguments that have very little to do with what I'm talking about, I ignore them and then you...say I conceded? If Kizaru doesn't erase his presence while moving at the speed of light, then yes, Ohm could see his aura. It wouldn't matter anyway. If Kizaru moved too fast for *him *to perceive then that's on *him*. That doesn't mean everyone else would have the same problem. 


Kroczilla said:


> Ray is able to intercept Kizaru because he's gain enough strength to operate and perceive attacks moving at that speed. A basic Coo user wouldn't be able to do shit in that circumstances. Unless you want to make the argument that lasers aren't light speed, dodging and perceiving objects moving at that speed is something that virtually all high tiers are capable of. Luffy himself easily dodged laser fresh off his training with Ray.


Ray was able to because his base reactions and other stats are on that level. Seeing the aura is enough because he can actually react to it. 

Kizaru is capable of instantly firing off lasers and moving at the speed of light instantly. Pacifista lasers require a period of charging up making them much more predictable. 


Kroczilla said:


> For the sake of emphasis , I am not saying that anyone can currently move at light speed, but the fact is tracking/following that level of speed is something that can achieve once enough strength has been gained. It's not something any run in the mill user can suddenly wake up and achieve.


The point is seeing auras if basic CoO. You still don't get this apparently.


Kroczilla said:


> Hi Ray.
> 
> Your stance is that Basic Coo can track any speed. You made no distinction as to the strength of the user.


Nope. My stance is that basic CoO can see auras as long as there is a presence. Your stance is that if you move fast enough then your aura shouldn't be able to be seen which is stupid because Rayleigh debunks that so hard. You are speaking as if speed is the end all be all counter to all CoO.

Btw I'm only responding to scans and evidence after this. I put in some leg work to find scans and you just say random shit you make up to save face for several pages. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 13, 2022)

Conxc said:


> No, bud. The keyword here is FANFIC. Like I said before, the basis of CoO is being able to see auras. There isn't a single argument that you can make for extended range to change that. You're arguing a silly point that has nothing to do with what's being discussed, as usual. I'll post this *again
> 
> Spoiler*:
> 
> There is no refuting what basic CoO is. It is spelled out for you right here.


You can post this a 1000 times. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, if you can't perceive an opponent's speed, it's unlikely that you can actually see their aura since Coo is basically just a more advanced version of sight (or hearing in some cases).


Conxc said:


> Are you fucking serious?
> *Spoiler*:
> The three of them sensed his presence and was able to *immediately *make their way to *exactly *where he was. At this point just concede. No need to even try to save face to this extent.


Go back and read my post. You know what, here, I will help you out 


Kroczilla said:


> Let's give an example using the infamous M3 Coo moment at FI.
> *When Luffy sensed Caribou's presence, to him it seemed like a wild beast*. *Sure he did eventually go up there and found out Caribou eventually, but that's hardly precise now, is it?*
> 
> 
> ...



One got a vague sense of a threatening figure on the floor above. The other was able to identify precisely who his target was.



Conxc said:


> None of this deviates away from the basis of being able to see auras.


And the ability to see auras doesn't deviate from the fact that without the necessary stats in reaction, speed etc., You aren't going to perceive someone going much faster than your sense can ordinarily process. That's just plain abuse of NLF


Conxc said:


> See above. As I said previously, this does not deviate from the basis of CoO that allows the user to see auras


See above


Conxc said:


> Ahh, you still don't get it, huh. If a target still has a physical presence, then their presence most certainly has not been erased


But all that proves is that they obviously still have a physical existence. We have zero idea on how the use of the ability affects the users aura which is the point of what this entire discussion is all about.


Conxc said:


> This is pure make believe. There is a clear function for invis in OP so far.


Yes. And there's clear instances of Coo users not being able to perceive an invisible target. 


Conxc said:


> You are treating extended range as a sub-type of CoO when it has nothing to do with seeing auras which is basic CoO. You are confused


Not in the slightest. All I have said is that some folks are more skilled than others. If I said for example that Doffy has better CoA than say Smoker, that doesn't in the slightest equate to me saying Doffy has an advanced or different variant of CoA compared to Smoker.


Conxc said:


> It's a stupid question. Again, you set up these silly arguments that have very little to do with what I'm talking about, I ignore them and then you...say I conceded? If Kizaru doesn't erase his presence while moving at the speed of light, then yes, Ohm could see his aura. It wouldn't matter anyway. If Kizaru moved too fast for *him *to perceive then that's on *him*. That doesn't mean everyone else would have the same problem.





Conxc said:


> Ray was able to because his base reactions and other stats are on that level.


This. This right here should end the conversation.


Conxc said:


> Kizaru is capable of instantly firing off lasers and moving at the speed of light instantly. Pacifista lasers require a period of charging up making them much more predictable.


But that's not the point is it (honestly starting to feel like a broken record). Yes, obviously Kizaru isn't as predictable in his movements as a simple laser gun, but the fact is with sufficient training, high tiers can perceive lasers in motion. Ergo with sufficient training, tracking a light speed fighter is possible. Without said training, it's not happening. Hence no, ohm isn't perceiving anything other than Kizaru kicking his face off.


Conxc said:


> The point is seeing auras if basic CoO. You still don't get this apparently.


Yes, but without the requisite stats, you aren't going to be able to perceive aura especially when said aura is tied completely to the physical form and motion of a target.


Conxc said:


> Nope. My stance is that basic CoO can see auras as long as there is a presence. Your stance is that if you move fast enough then your aura shouldn't be able to be seen which is stupid because Rayleigh debunks that so hard


Here's your own quote 



Conxc said:


> Ray was able to because his base reactions and other stats are on that level


That's it. That's the sum of everything we ve been talking about. Ray did it because he is strong enough and his sense are sharp enough to perceive that lvl of speed. Not saying Coo played absolutely no role coz there's no way to tell, but that facts are that Ray (someone who could intercept Kizaru's light speed kick mid swing) is simply that fast.


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## Mylesime (Jan 13, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I mean, we know what the actual *advanced *form of CoO does, and so far, only Luffy and Katakuri are confirmed users of that form. Other than that, there's really no other distinction within CoO use. What Rayleigh explained to Luffy in 597 was literally the basis of each form of Haki. The least of what you can expect to be able to do once you learn the form of Haki. From there, you have the advanced forms.
> 
> A prime example: The moment Usopp unlocked CoO, he was able to see Luffy, Law, and Sugar's presence despite not being able to actually _see _them. That is completely in line with the basic definition of the Haki that Ray gave us: the ability to "_see_" even who you can't see.



This shit is not complicated @Conxc:
*Simply put, there are levels to these shits.*

Take hardening; There are advanced forms of CoA right?
Does it mean that Pica's or Bellamy 's hardening is at the same level as King's or Katakuri's?



So why the fuck would Sanji's CoO be at the same level as Page 1's?

Sanji and Ussop are gifted CoO users, we don't scale them down , nor scale people up to them baselessly, as many of us like to tell. One doesn't simply grant their feats to everyone and his/her mother......
Ussop was simply impressive, the range , the precision, the speed of execution, props to him. That's it.
We are not supposed to assume that any haki user can replicate Ussop's big moment. That's not how it works, and that certainly wasn't the author's intent......




Conxc said:


> The extent to what I have been saying is that Sanji didn't maintain his speed for an extended period of time, but a few seconds. Is that agreeable?
> 
> I never said that he wouldn't have still decisively defeated Queen. I have said multiple times that if fresh with his DNA powers he beats him mid diff at worst. I even said that Queen's CoO is shit, like you said and your buddy got all flustered. As you can see, there's no winning here.



And this is where the lack of consistency, and the lack of fairness is blatant.
Queen's CoO is not shit. Sanji's CoO is very good, like the author highlights it time and time again.
You guys are twisting this, that's audacious but fallacious.
Queen being unable to locate Sanji's position (something that never happened to him against any other opponent beforehand, heck not even Sanji outside of his speed mode) is actually a reason why we can't simply assume that basic CoO can counter invisibility.



He basically fights like Dr Octopus, relying on expandable limbs and weaponry.
Queen being slow and having shit reflexes and CoO is simply a lie, an headcanon downplayers shamelessly came up with.
This can't be taken seriously unfortunately.

Similarly when Sanji was reactive enough to avoid Katakuri's Future sight despite dealing/being focused on the priest trying to kill him simultaneously . It was to hype Sanji, not simply assume that that feat was easy to pull off.
Again this shit is simple to understand, Sanji's CoO is just excellent.

The author intent was clear, Katakuri was surprised because according to him, everybody can't replicate that feat.
Queen had no difficulty following or tagging Marco, King, Luffy, Zoro during the battle, heck he tagged Sanji numerous times before the latter went invisible.
Oda's intentions are clear, he's hyping Sanji's speed when going all out not shitting on Queen's reflexes/CoO..... which were perfectly fine during most of the fight.

Many complained about the whore's intervention, which one is it now?
This hoe had the time to find her mouse, pet him, Queen had the time to understand that Osome was rejecting him and lying about her physical condition, Sanji solved the whole mystery regarding Osome's assault, saved the pet........... while all of those events were taking place, Sanji was invisible.
Your take: it lasted a few seconds.
You one of the guys hyping up Zoro blocking Hakai and complaining about folks downplaying that feat.
If Sanji lasted a few seconds, how long did Zoro's block last?
Consistency folks, consistency.

Obviously Sanji's ultimate move has a time limit. That's how super modes work, the same principle was applied to the Awakenings, the Gears, Zoro going all out with Enma + advanced CoC. A super mode has a time limit, rule 101, otherwise the user is totally broken.
This move is taxing and exhausting and causes drawbacks once the mission accomplished, like all the other super mode/transformations.
Zoro exhausted himself similarly going all out. Why even bring up something so obvious ?
This does not diminish the cook's feat.

Give props to Sanji, stop with the excuses and the nonsensical explanations.
The answer is simple: Sanji too stronk.

What you're concluding is that Queen is so dumb he collected plenty of intel on the Vinsmoke's technology, in order to use a move that can be countered by any haki user.
He was then so dumb that he estimated that Sanji could not locate him while invisible, despite the fact that everyone and his mother is able to pinpoint the location of an invisible man mind you  (everyone except Queen of course.... and Page 1, anyone having to face Sanji basically) once he masters observation.
And Oda is such a shit writter that he came up with something so dumb.

Do you guys realize how far you're reaching rather than simply giving props to the cook?
That's unbelievable.


Again this is very simple.
Sanji too stronk.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Beast (Jan 13, 2022)

Conxc said:


> The thing is. Idc about the couple seconds lmfao. The feat is the feat. You wanna say it was a single second, have at it, but it's hilarious to me that you and the other people that took exception to what I said have no problem with guys in this thread claiming Sanji was moving at this speed for an extended period of time when in all actuallity only a few seconds passed. And *if we apply the free speech here the time is even less,* but surprise. *No one even brought it up in regards to this.* Like I said, it's an uproar when a character you don't like is being discussed, but crickets when one you like or don't mind is. That's just funny to me.


The time is not effect by speech, it doesn’t go down or up to suit your needs. It doesn’t work like that. I don’t think I made a claim about anything… maybe a joke but I was letting people know the notion of free speech that they’ve tried to use for their own arguments.


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## Louis-954 (Jan 13, 2022)

Sanji can't win this fight without the Raid Suit, imo.


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## Conxc (Jan 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> You can post this a 1000 times. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, if you can't perceive an opponent's speed, it's unlikely that you can actually see their aura since Coo is basically just a more advanced version of sight (or hearing in some cases).


And that depends on the individual. That does not change the fact that aura sensing is the standard use of the ability. I don’t understand how this isnt clicking for you yet. Just because *Queen *could not perceive him does not mean no one else could. Individual struggles does not change the standard.


Kroczilla said:


> Go back and read my post. You know what, here, I will help you out


The point you tried to make in that instance was a pointless one.


Kroczilla said:


> One got a vague sense of a threatening figure on the floor above. The other was able to identify precisely who his target was.


I don’t care if they’re seeing a silhouette that looks like Ronald McDonald. The point is that basic CoO let’s you see auras and that’s my point. 


Kroczilla said:


> And the ability to see auras doesn't deviate from the fact that without the necessary stats in reaction, speed etc., You aren't going to perceive someone going much faster than your sense can ordinarily process. That's just plain abuse of NLF


This doesn’t change the fact that basic CoO grants you the ability to see auras. CoO is a direct counter to invisibility as well as high speed movement because you can see the person’s aura. Which is my point.


Kroczilla said:


> See above
> 
> But all that proves is that they obviously still have a physical existence. We have zero idea on how the use of the ability affects the users aura which is the point of what this entire discussion is all about.


If there’s a physical presence, there’s an aura. Which is my point. We know exactly what invis does in OP. You don’t get to add shit onto that that hasn’t been established in 1036 chapters.


Kroczilla said:


> Yes. And there's clear instances of Coo users not being able to perceive an invisible target.


They weren’t using CoO at the time because basic CoO allows you to see auras. Even invisible targets have auras in OP. 


Kroczilla said:


> Not in the slightest. All I have said is that some folks are more skilled than others. If I said for example that Doffy has better CoA than say Smoker, that doesn't in the slightest equate to me saying Doffy has an advanced or different variant of CoA compared to Smoker.


CoA functions completely different and there are multiple layers of proficiency involved. Whether you can only see 5 miles away from you or 500 the point is that you are still seeing auras. I don’t care about anything passed that for this discussion.


Kroczilla said:


> This. This right here should end the conversation.


Convo should’ve been ended the moment you realized that you were creating your own arguments to rogue against, but here we are. This doesn’t affect my stance because my point is that basic CoO allows the user to see auras. The rest depends on the individual, but Rayleigh is proof that basic CoO *can* be used as a counter no matter how fast the target moves. Doesn’t get any faster than the speed of light.


Kroczilla said:


> But that's not the point is it (honestly starting to feel like a broken record). Yes, obviously Kizaru isn't as predictable in his movements as a simple laser gun, but the fact is with sufficient training, high tiers can perceive lasers in motion. Ergo with sufficient training, tracking a light speed fighter is possible. Without said training, it's not happening. Hence no, ohm isn't perceiving anything other than Kizaru kicking his face off.
> 
> Yes, but without the requisite stats, you aren't going to be able to perceive aura especially when said aura is tied completely to the physical form and motion of a target.


Again, none of this changes the fact that basic CoO let’s you see auras. I don’t care how far you can see. I don’t care if you can see down to the pubic hair, it does not change the basis of what CoO is. The rest is up to the user.


Kroczilla said:


> Here's your own quote
> 
> 
> That's it. That's the sum of everything we ve been talking about. Ray did it because he is strong enough and his sense are sharp enough to perceive that lvl of speed. Not saying Coo played absolutely no role coz there's no way to tell, but that facts are that Ray (someone who could intercept Kizaru's light speed kick mid swing) is simply that fast.


So you ignore the part that he was able to anticipate and intercept Kizaru exactly at which path he would take? That’s obvious CoO and being able to still see his aura .


Mylesime said:


> This shit is not complicated @Conxc:
> *Simply put, there are levels to these shits.*
> 
> Take hardening; There are advanced forms of CoA right?
> Does it mean that Pica's or Bellamy 's hardening is at the same level as King's or Katakuri's?


CoA has several layers of mastery that are not present in CoO. Very different mechanic.



Mylesime said:


> So why the fuck would Sanji's CoO be at the same level as Page 1's?


Show me where I said that.


Mylesime said:


> Sanji and Ussop are gifted CoO users, we don't scale them down , nor scale people up to them baselessly, as many of us like to tell. One doesn't simply grant their feats to everyone and his/her mother......


Show me where I did that.


Mylesime said:


> Ussop was simply impressive, the range , the precision, the speed of execution, props to him. That's it.
> We are not supposed to assume that any haki user can replicate Ussop's big moment. That's not how it works, and that certainly wasn't the author's intent......


Show me where I did that.


Mylesime said:


> And this is where the lack of consistency, and the lack of fairness is blatant.
> Queen's CoO is not shit. Sanji's CoO is very good, like the author highlights it time and time again.
> You guys are twisting this, that's audacious but fallacious.
> Queen being unable to locate Sanji's position (something that never happened to him against any other opponent beforehand, heck not even Sanji outside of his speed mode) is actually a reason why we can't simply assume that basic CoO can counter invisibility.


Sanji’s CoO is not what’s being discussed.
1. Ray’s explanation as to what CoO is proves that it is the counter to invisibility. As long as there is a presence, CoO can track the target.

2. Queen didn’t even use CoO to try and find Sanji. He watched Sanji disappear, left it up to him to get tired and come back within sight and focused all of his attention onto Osome. That is what happened. Wouldn’t have changed the outcome either way, but that is what happened in canon, on panel and it all transpired in a few seconds.
It really helps when guys are completely disregarding your existence. Zoro literally walked and stood right next to Queen. Neither him nor Luffy even aknowldged he was there and Luffy used a basic GG Rocket, which has always been used as a way of transportation, to get to the roof. This does. It prove that he could react to either of these guys in a fight. Come on Myles. And again, this has absolutely nothing to do with my initial stance in this thread.


Mylesime said:


> He basically fights like Dr Octopus, relying on expandable limbs and weaponry.
> Queen being slow and having shit reflexes and CoO is simply a lie, an headcanon downplayers shamelessly came up with.
> This can't be taken seriously unfortunately.


Yeah, everything you said here is true if and only if you completely ignore the manga and stick with the story you made up in your head. Your guy has successfully reacted to *two *attacks since his debut. 


Mylesime said:


> Similarly when Sanji was reactive enough to avoid Katakuri's Future sight despite dealing/being focused on the priest trying to kill him simultaneously . It was to hype Sanji, not simply assume that that feat was easy to pull off.
> Again this shit is simple to understand, Sanji's CoO is just excellent.


This is nothing to do with what I was talking about.


Mylesime said:


> The author intent was clear, Katakuri was surprised because according to him, everybody can't replicate that feat.
> Queen had no difficulty following or tagging Marco, King, Luffy, Zoro during the battle, heck he tagged Sanji numerous times before the latter went invisible.
> Oda's intentions are clear, he's hyping Sanji's speed when going all out not shitting on Queen's reflexes/CoO..... which were perfectly fine during most of the fight.


This has nothing to do with what I was talking about.


Mylesime said:


> Many complained about the whore's intervention, which one is it now?
> This hoe had the time to find her mouse, pet him, Queen had the time to understand that Osome was rejecting him and lying about her physical condition, Sanji solved the whole mystery regarding Osome's assault, saved the pet........... while all of those events were taking place, Sanji was invisible.
> Your take: it lasted a few seconds.
> You one of the guys hyping up Zoro blocking Hakai and complaining about folks downplaying that feat.
> ...


Ah, so free speech doesn’t count here. Not like it matters anyway. You preach consitency but I really wish you were apart of that thread about Hakai to see how similar out arguments were and guys were not having it, only I emphasized a second to 2 seconds of difference. You guys are making it seem like dude used it for 5 mins+. @Chip Skylark Skylark @truedetectiveseason2intro  this looks familiar? Guys argued with me for several pages on this but again, crickets here. That’s pretty funny.


Mylesime said:


> Obviously Sanji's ultimate move has a time limit. That's how super modes work, the same principle was applied to the Awakenings, the Gears, Zoro going all out with Enma + advanced CoC. A super mode has a time limit, rule 101, otherwise the user is totally broken.
> This move is taxing and exhausting and causes drawbacks once the mission accomplished, like all the other super mode/transformations.
> Zoro exhausted himself similarly going all out. Why even bring up something so obvious ?
> This does not diminish the cook's feat.


Most of this has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. My points is Sanji did not maintain the speed for an extended period of time. There’s no way to stretch that.



Mylesime said:


> Give props to Sanji, stop with the excuses and the nonsensical explanations.
> The answer is simple: Sanji too stronk.



My point is that he was not in that speed for an extended period of time.


Mylesime said:


> What you're concluding is that Queen is so dumb he collected plenty of intel on the Vinsmoke's technology, in order to use a move that can be countered by any haki user.
> He was then so dumb that he estimated that Sanji could not locate him while invisible, despite the fact that everyone and his mother is able to pinpoint the location of an invisible man mind you  (everyone except Queen of course.... and Page 1, anyone having to face Sanji basically) once he masters observation.
> And Oda is such a shit writter that he came up with something so dumb.
> 
> ...


This has nothing to do with what I’ve been arguing. The point is that Sanji did not maintain that speed for an extended period of time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jan 13, 2022)

Beast said:


> The time is not effect by speech, it doesn’t go down or up to suit your needs. It doesn’t work like that. I don’t think I made a claim about anything… maybe a joke but I was letting people know the notion of free speech that they’ve tried to use for their own arguments.


So what’s different here bud? So we count the time that each character thought to themselves as time toward the feat. That’s fair game, but not actual dialogue between the characters? I wish guys would just be honest and admit to the double standard tbh. Exposing y’all is fun too, but it gets tiring.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 13, 2022)

Conxc said:


> And that depends on the individual. That does not change the fact that aura sensing is the standard use of the ability. I don’t understand how this isnt clicking for you yet. Just because *Queen *could not perceive him does not mean no one else could. Individual struggles does not change the standard.
> 
> The point you tried to make in that instance was a pointless one.
> 
> ...


How much do you bench?


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## Kroczilla (Jan 13, 2022)

Conxc said:


> And that depends on the individual. That does not change the fact that aura sensing is the standard use of the ability. I don’t understand how this isnt clicking for you yet. Just because *Queen *could not perceive him does not mean no one else could. Individual struggles does not change the standard.


Yes, aura sensing is part of standard Coo, but that doesn't discount the fact that without the requisite base stats to perceive movement at a certain lvl of speed, you aren't going to see shit. And not once did I mention that "no one else could have seen him". Merely the fact that given Queen had no issues tracking Marco, King's speed simply doesn't measure up to that lvl.


Conxc said:


> The point you tried to make in that instance was a pointless one


Not really given you tried to claim a lack of distinction between Coo users which is obviously not the case else what even would be the point of Coo specialists?


Conxc said:


> I don’t care if they’re seeing a silhouette that looks like Ronald McDonald. The point is that basic CoO let’s you see auras and that’s my point.


And my point is that said ability to see auras doesn't equate to the ability to track speeds well beyond the user's ability to even process. This is just flat out NLF.


Conxc said:


> This doesn’t change the fact that basic CoO grants you the ability to see auras. CoO is a direct counter to invisibility as well as high speed movement because you can see the person’s aura. Which is my point.


See above. Also again the way in which invisibility interacts with the users aura has not been made clear. What has been shown though is that invisibility is perceived as disappearance by even high tier haki users.




Conxc said:


> If there’s a physical presence, there’s an aura. Which is my point. We know exactly what invis does in OP. You don’t get to add shit onto that that hasn’t been established in 1036 chapters.


Again, see above. We don't know how invisibility interacts with the aura of it user. It is well within the realm of possibility, given all of it previous feats that it mask's a user's aura. Which isn't exactly a strange concept given the monks seem capable of a similar feat






Conxc said:


> They weren’t using CoO at the time because basic CoO allows you to see auras. Even invisible targets have auras in OP.


Again the point isn't whether or not invisible characters have auras. I would assume that all living things have auras. Rather the point is that their auras could very well be masked.


Conxc said:


> CoA functions completely different and there are multiple layers of proficiency involved. Whether you can only see 5 miles away from you or 500 the point is that you are still seeing auras. I don’t care about anything passed that for this discussion.


Now you're just being disingenuous. I literally just showed an example of Coby's Coo precision in comparison with the M3. Range is just another aspect of the layers of proficiency with Coo.


Conxc said:


> Convo should’ve been ended the moment you realized that you were creating your own arguments to rogue against, but here we are. This doesn’t affect my stance because my point is that basic CoO allows the user to see auras. The rest depends on the individual, but Rayleigh is proof that basic CoO *can* be used as a counter no matter how fast the target moves. Doesn’t get any faster than the speed of light.


Basically see my previous posts. And again, Raleigh is a goddamn top tier. His stats including his natural senses are at the upper echelon of what is to be expected in the verse. You can't use his feat of tracking Kizaru as proof that any hillbilly with Coo can track any lvl of speed no matter what, same way i can't use a feat of daredevil deflecting bullets as proof that any blind man in the Marvel verse can track the trajectory of supersonic projectiles.

It's simply NLF to a frankly laughable extent


Conxc said:


> Again, none of this changes the fact that basic CoO let’s you see auras. I don’t care how far you can see. I don’t care if you can see down to the pubic hair, it does not change the basis of what CoO is. The rest is up to the user.


See above.


Conxc said:


> So you ignore the part that he was able to anticipate and intercept Kizaru exactly at which path he would take? That’s obvious CoO and being able to still see his aura .


Again see above. Raleigh is a top tier. A top tier would naturally have top tier senses. I don't know how this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Especially when his much weaker student straight out the gate was able to perceive the movement of laser mid flight.


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 13, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Ah, so free speech doesn’t count here. Not like it matters anyway. You preach consitency but I really wish you were apart of that thread about Hakai to see how similar out arguments were and guys were not having it, only I emphasized a second to 2 seconds of difference. You guys are making it seem like dude used it for 5 mins+. @Chip Skylark Skylark @truedetectiveseason2intro  this looks familiar? Guys argued with me for several pages on this but again, crickets here. That’s pretty funny.


I noticed the discussion late, and by the time I got to it there were way too many paragraphs to read. I don't know what's going on in this thread.

I be bored, but not that bored


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## Conxc (Jan 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> *Yes, aura sensing is part of standard Coo,*


Didn’t read anything passed this because this is the point. All that extra shit is you creating arguments for yourself to tackle. Thanks for playing. I’m not gonna keep on typing essays of me saying the same shit, emphasizing what my point is, you ignoring it and rinsing and repeating. Not doing it.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 13, 2022)

I like how people are saying basic CoO deals with invisibility perfectly.
ODA I'm giving one of zoros final villians an invisibility fruit, which is basically useless for any vet+ level fighter apparently.
Cmon now.
Once we see the zoro vs shiliew fight in 14 years, people will understand.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 13, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Didn’t read anything passed this because this is the point. All that extra shit is you creating arguments for yourself to tackle. Thanks for playing. *I’m not gonna keep on typing essays of me saying the same shit, emphasizing what my point is, you ignoring it and rinsing and repeating*. Not doing it.


You do realise that you are doing exactly what you described, right?

But yeah, I'm done.


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## Beast (Jan 14, 2022)

Conxc said:


> So what’s different here bud? So we count the time that each character thought to themselves as time toward the feat. That’s fair game, but not actual dialogue between the characters? I wish guys would just be honest and admit to the double standard tbh. Exposing y’all is fun too, but it gets tiring.


Im not sure whatever else you are arguing but free speech can’t be used to set time frames to your liking.
If you’re talking about Sanji disappearing… he did in fact disappear completely as Queen could not see him at all in an open room, King attacked Zoro really fast… not the same thing at all. Sanji can barely keep that up at all but keeping it up and being aboe to do it are two completely different things anyway. Sanji is fast enough to disappear and that takes speed but can’t keep it up and that’s stamina…. Which is just horrid for someone who ran around and fought for two years, his stamina should be off the charts especially considering he was slightly fresh (unless healing and awakening took a tool on him).


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## fenaker (Jan 16, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> You already lost. Be quiet.


you already lost when you pushed ur headcanons 


TheRealSJ said:


> Fenaker please refrain from logging on to Fanverse from now on, as a heartfelt request.
> 
> We have already seen enough of you over at WG and the BDA server, go be toxic over there please and thank you


you seem to be hurt because i'm here , i see ppl already bodied sanji bros here lmao

Reactions: Funny 2 | Disagree 1


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## Almageste (Jan 16, 2022)

The funniest part is that people are arguing about a theoretical fight that in less than a week or two manga time will clearly be in Sanji’s favour due to the allmighty, badly written, non impressive power creep between arcs.


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## convict (Jan 16, 2022)

Almageste said:


> The funniest part is that people are arguing about a theoretical fight that in less than a week or two manga time will clearly be in Sanji’s favour due to the allmighty, badly written, non impressive power creep between arcs.



Less than a week in One Piece time is 4 years in our time though so people still gonna be arguing this the next 4 years

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Almageste (Jan 16, 2022)

convict said:


> Less than a week in One Piece time is 4 years in our time though so people still gonna be arguing this the next 4 years


Indeed, but it just shows how silly it is.

Imagine someone spending 4 years arguing that Zoro v3.4 is weaker than XXX high/extreme diff or Sanji v3.4 is weaker than XXX high/extreme diff when it’s clear that in the next arc, Zoro/Sanji v3.5 will be stronger. Same applies for Luffy (less obvious for other straw hats who get less fights overall).


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## Siskebabas (Jan 16, 2022)

Sanji cannot put King down, its as simple as that, all other arguments are irrelevant.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 2


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 16, 2022)

Siskebabas said:


> Sanji cannot put King down, its as simple as that, all other arguments are irrelevant.


Sanji has shown greater attack power than king, so how is king gonna put sanji down?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 16, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Sanji has shown greater attack power than king, so how is king gonna put sanji down?



King only put down fodders with his fire.
Sanji destroyed Queen and launched him into orbit.
He has the better AP feat.
Undeniable Fact really.
Feats dissmissed or denied when it doesn't support one's agendas tough.....  Fact of the matter?
They don't really give  a fuck about feats.

We're also supposed to believe that King would shrug off Ifrit Jambe simultaneously....... when Marco was clearly able to hurt him with shockwaves and knees......


You just have to laugh really at this point . The fuck are you supposed to answer confronted with so much nonsense?

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 1


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## Conxc (Jan 16, 2022)

@Mylesime 
Do you believe that Zoro hurt King here?


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## Mylesime (Jan 16, 2022)

Conxc said:


> @Mylesime
> Do you believe that Zoro hurt King here?



Not significantly.
Do you think that Oni Giri would have significantly hurt Queen?


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## Conxc (Jan 16, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Not significantly.
> Do you think that Oni Giri would have significantly hurt Queen?


I mean, if we're gauging the damage done here by blood, it stands to reason that this attack did more to King, no?

And yes, I absolutely do. I also think this would have hurt King more if he were in speed mode.


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## Germa 66 (Jan 16, 2022)

Sanji is way too fast for King


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## Mylesime (Jan 16, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I mean, if we're gauging the damage done here by blood, it stands to reason that this attack did more to King, no?
> 
> And yes, I absolutely do. I also think this would have hurt King more if he were in speed mode.



Compared to which attacks?
Marco's?
When Marco used his shockwaves and his velocity he was effective against the two calamities..... It was more effective than Zoro first Oni giri. Based on King's reaction afterward. 
And it was pretty clear that the phoenix was able to hurt King and Queen.


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## Conxc (Jan 16, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Compared to which attacks?
> Marco's?
> When Marco used his shockwaves and his velocity he was effective against the two calamities.....
> And it was pretty clear that the phoenix was able to hurt King and Queen.


Yes, to the infamous knee that made King bleed. The biggest argument to that has been the couple droplets of blood that were shown. Oni Giri kinda had King leaking there. For some reason it doesn't get the same respect, though. Other than that blood, there's no proof that Marco's attacks really hurt King. Oni Giri produced more than that. I think we both agree, though, that Oni Giri didn't hurt King much. By bringing up Marco's knee attack drawing blood, you have to concede either that Zoro's attack did at the very least the same amoutn of damage, or you have to admit that Marco's attack didn't do much if anything at all.


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## Mylesime (Jan 16, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Yes, to the infamous knee that made King bleed. The biggest argument to that has been the couple droplets of blood that were shown. Oni Giri kinda had King leaking there. For some reason it doesn't get the same respect, though. Other than that blood, there's no proof that Marco's attacks really hurt King. Oni Giri produced more than that. I think we both agree, though, that Oni Giri didn't hurt King much. By bringing up Marco's knee attack drawing blood, you have to concede either that Zoro's attack did at the very least the same amoutn of damage, or you have to admit that Marco's attack didn't do much if anything at all.



First of all none of those attacks significantly hurt King. King did not come away unscathed vs Marco tough. He looked more affected after Marco's attack , he wasn't chilling like he did after Oni giri.
And Sanji's ifrit jambe is clearly on a whole other level offensively.

How we know that?
Queen also ate shockwaves and strikes delivered by Marco.
Queen also endured Marco's assault and received punishment vs the phoenix. He got back up, took it.
Sanji destroyed him with Ifrit Jambe, he might still be flying.

King is not shrugging off Ifrit Jambe, and is not invulnerable vs Marco.
Won't waste my time debating something so obvious.
That is ridiculous those guys are comparable.
I don't mind folks siding with King, but i won't even bother debating regarding why this is a very difficult fight for both fighters.

Sanji literally has the better speed and AP feat. On top of not having to switch, trading off speed in exchange of durability.....
We don't pick and choose which feats benefitiate our stance, nor when to use hype and portrayal.....
Consistency please, otherwise there is no credibility.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jan 16, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> First of all none of those attacks significantly hurt King. King did not came away unscathed vs Marco tough. He looked more affected after Marco's attack , he wasn't chilling like he did after Oni giri.
> And Sanji's ifrit jambe is clearly on a whole other level offensively.
> 
> How we know that?
> ...


My only point is to show that neither attack did much if anything to King in durability mode. That's a mode that King no sold Shishi Sonson in and even after AdCoC Zoro didn't expect to hurt King in dura mode. Blood can be drawn while he's in dura mode, but actual damage seems to be mitigated no matter the attack based on what we've seen. I don't think even Ifrit will do anything to King in dura mode. That's all im saying.


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## Mylesime (Jan 16, 2022)

Conxc said:


> My only point is to show that neither attack did much if anything to King in durability mode. That's a mode that King no sold Shishi Sonson in and even after AdCoC Zoro didn't expect to hurt King in dura mode. Blood can be drawn while he's in dura mode, but actual damage seems to be mitigated no matter the attack based on what we've seen. I don't think even Ifrit will do anything to King in dura mode. That's all im saying.



And i disagree.
Zoro was clearly affecting King with every single advanced CoC slashes, he even taunted him, since he noticed that King was wary of his attacks post awakening.


It was also made clear that Marco was affecting Queen and King. In a 1 vs 1 he would have clearly been able to inflict lasting damages on both.
Unless you're claiming that Marco can't hurt King.
You don't see anyone claiming that Marco can't seriously hurt Queen, do you?


Marco is a phoenix and endured countless attacks vs top tiers, yet King and Queen fucked him up more than any of those top tiers. Circumstances matter.

King is very durable, he also uses a skill that impede his speed. He is not invincible.
Marco and Sanji can hurt him obviously.


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## Conxc (Jan 16, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> And i disagree.
> Zoro was clearly affecting King with every single advanced CoC slashes, he even taunted him, since he noticed that King was wary of his attacks post awakening.


IIRC Zoro never hurt him *in durability mode*. If he couldn't pull it off, neither can Marco or Sanji.


Mylesime said:


> It was also made clear that Marco was affecting Queen and King. In a 1 vs 1 he would have clearly been able to inflict lasting damages on both.
> Unless you're claiming that Marco can't hurt King.


*Not in durability mode*, no. Zoro, who's AP is greater couldn't. As I said before, the only support for Marco doing anything to King was the *droplets *of blood. Oni Giri yielded much more than that and we were told even Oni Giri didn't do anything. 


Mylesime said:


> You don't see anyone claiming that Marco can't hurt Queen.
> Marco is a phoenix and endured countless attacks vs top tiers, King and Queen fucked him up more than any of those top tiers. Circumstances matter.
> 
> King is very durable, he also uses a skill that impede his speed.
> Marco and Sanji can hurt him.


Well, Marco's attacks left a more lasting effect on Queen, and also yielded more of a reaction from him. Also, Queen doesn't have a mode dedicated to extremely high endurance that has been proven against top tier caliber attacks. It's more appropriate to compare King outside of his durability mode endurance to Queen's endurance as Dura mode is clearly head and shoulders above, as it was intended.


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## Mylesime (Jan 16, 2022)

Conxc said:


> IIRC Zoro never hurt him *in durability mode*. If he couldn't pull it off, neither can Marco or Sanji.







Conxc said:


> *Not in durability mode*, no. Zoro, who's AP is greater couldn't. As I said before, the only support for Marco doing anything to King was the *droplets *of blood. Oni Giri yielded much more than that and we were told even Oni Giri didn't do anything.


I'm not going to argue about Marco's ability to hurt King.
If you think that Marco can't significantly  hurt King, let's simply agree to disagree.



Conxc said:


> Well, Marco's attacks left a more lasting effect on Queen, and also yielded more of a reaction from him. Also, Queen doesn't have a mode dedicated to extremely high endurance that has been proven against top tier caliber attacks. It's more appropriate to compare King outside of his durability mode endurance to Queen's endurance as Dura mode is clearly head and shoulders above, as it was intended.



Queen was perfectly fine when they were about to finish off Marco, before the two strawhats intervention.


He recovered from any damages inflicted by Marco and quite frankly he did not look particularly affected either.


Heck he was bragging about the calamities toughness, even faked invulnerability late into his fight vs Sanji. The calamity was eating Hell Memories, laughing it off.
Did not mean that Marco can't significantly hurt Queen, circumstances matter, this was a 2 vs 1.


King is more durable than Queen, Queen is also very durable tough, we're talking about an ancient zoan cyborg here, as proven against O Lin and Marco, yet Sanji destroyed him with an Ifrit Jambe combo. Queen getting destroyed by something that would not even hurt King?
Not gonna bother explaining why King doesn't neg diff Queen, it's obvious after reading the story.
King is not getting away unscathed if he takes it. Zoro's AP is superior, does not mean that King can no sell Ifrit Jambe come on now.
Let's agree to disagree.

Let's be real i can't convince anyone that truly believes that King has not much to fear from Marco and Sanji's attacks.
Quite honestly i'm not even trying to, that's some wild take, simply expressing my opinion.
We are currently seeing Law and Kid hurting Big Mom without advanced CoC but somehow King is invulnerable vs Sanji and Marco, Sabo can't hurt him either i guess?
Let's be real please. Some things don't need to be explained.  Common sense.

And King would need his speed mode vs them anyway.
Again King is not invincible, specially not against two characters of comparable strength (which is the case for Marco and Sanji).
Marco is a prime example, particularly high endurance, bullet proof vs Top Tiers.
Yet there are limits to their powers, King and Queen fucked him up (again not gonna bother debating how Queen's intervention was decisive, there is no convincing someone in denial).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jan 16, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> I'm not going to argue about Marco's ability to hurt King.
> If you think that Marco can't significantly  hurt King, let's simply agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> ...


yeah, we can agree to disagree. Im not saying that they cant hurt king overall. obviously they can if he's in speed mode. There's a huge difference. a difference so large that fighting king in speed mode was shown to be the key to beating him.


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## Mylesime (Jan 16, 2022)

Conxc said:


> yeah, we can agree to disagree. Im not saying that they cant hurt king overall. obviously they can if he's in speed mode. There's a huge difference. a difference so large that fighting king in speed mode was shown to be the key to beating him.



Disagree speed mode or not they can hurt him.
Zoro's AP is top tier, hence why it only took him a few good hits to put down King once he unleashed his powers.
Each characters has his strengths tough, Marco and Sanji can fly and are faster, they can obviously inflict significant damages to King during the course of a fight. Just like how Queen and King finally bypassed Marco's defense.

Honestly?
Think that Zoro unlocking advanced CoC was the most important element. It was curtains at that point, that was the key for him in order  to beat King.
And like i said, Sanji and Marco can match King's speed and mobility anyway, something that was a challenge for Zoro.
King is not getting out of a fight against Sanji  without taking ifrit Jambe (and that shit would hurt), or getting away from Marco without significant damages in the long run;  in speed mode or durability mode......

Don't care about the fact that someone gives the nod to the calamity.
But acting like it would be an easy fight,  or King would not get seriously hurt, or again like King could low diff Queen?




Sanji is in King's ballpark, let alone Marco (who regardless of what is said, stalled King and another calamity for a significant period of time, the kind of feats that show clear superiority).
They're hurting him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jan 16, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Disagree speed mode or not they can hurt him.
> Zoro's AP is top tier, hence why it took him a few good hits to put down King.
> Each characters has his strengths, Marco and Sanji can fly and are faster, they can obviously inflict significant damages to King during the course of a fight. Just like how Queen and King finally bypassed Marco's defense.
> 
> ...


well, regarding queen, you know i dont think much of him. I think sanji mid diffs him if fresh. i think King is stronger, so low diff...doesnt sound so bad.


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## Mylesime (Jan 16, 2022)

Conxc said:


> well, regarding queen, you know i dont think much of him. I think sanji mid diffs him if fresh. i think King is stronger, so low diff...doesnt sound so bad.



Zoro would also have an easier time if fresh vs King, after his new gains......
Once again let's agree to disagree. There is no convincing anyone claiming that King could fodderize Queen despite all the evidences proving the contrary.
Queen was able to do his thing facing Sanji and Marco, if he was that weak he would not have had any impact against the phoenix.

The reality is clear:


the Grandmaster also clearly indicated that facing Queen was not particularly easier than confronting King:







Portrayal and feats are clear, he was a problem against Marco, and his presence was clearly why the phoenix was doomed.
He belonged at that level.

Chopper was a scrub in comparison and treated as such. Hyogoro told Kawamatsu and everyone else to step aside because they were out of their depth. Franky was useless vs Lucci at Ennies Lobby, Zoro told him to leave King to him on Onigashima,  Law destroyed Tashigi at Punk Hazard.
Ussop was out of his depth vs Kaku and Jyabura,  a burden for Zoro.....
That's how one portrays characters outclassed.......not by having Marco stating that both characters are bothering him.


Once again there is no point arguing about that, we would lose our time, it's obvious why Queen is not a scrub in comparison to King or Marco (which is the only way they could low diff him), hence why a similar bounty. Let's simply agree to disagree.

Long story short, With what Sanji showcased post awakening he's clearly comparable to King.
King ain't mid diffing shit here.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Conxc (Jan 16, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Zoro would also have an easier time if fresh vs King, after his new gains......
> Once again let's agree to disagree. There is no convincing anyone claiming that King could fodderize Queen despite all the evidences proving the contrary.
> Queen was able to do his thing facing Sanji and Marco, if he was that weak he would not have had any impact against the phoenix.
> 
> ...


What diff do you think Queen gives a fresh Sanji?


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## Mylesime (Jan 17, 2022)

Conxc said:


> What diff do you think Queen gives a fresh Sanji?



This fight was an extreme diff.
So taking into account the new gains?
Similar to what he needed vs Jyabura i guess.
Knowing that he would need to bring out the big guns and go all out?
Mid/High. He needs Ifrit Jambe, which makes it a challenge to some extent.
Think King would need a similar level of difficulty. King vs Sanji would be an high/extreme diff either way, leaning toward Sanji personally, who doesn't need to switch between speed and durability.
Whatever the case Sanji and King's overall stats are close, their styles comparable.  Speed, AP, recovery, durability, strength, mobility etc.
They would clearly push each other.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 17, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> This fight was an extreme diff.
> So taking into account the new gains?
> Similar to what he needed vs Jyabura i guess.
> Knowing that he would need to bring out the big guns and go all out?
> Mid/High. He needs Ifrit Jambe, which makes it a challenge to some extent.


Agree with this. I personally think being forced to unleash your very best move in a fight makes it a mid-high diff fight automatically (even if the fight ends very shortly afterwards).


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## Siskebabas (Jan 17, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Sanji has shown greater attack power than king, so how is king gonna put sanji down?


Thats highly debatable and irrelevant too, Kings defenses are above sanjis attack power while sajis defenses are not above Kings attack power. 
Fucking Queen ate shit ton of attacks attacks before he went down and hes nowhere near on defense on King


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 17, 2022)

Siskebabas said:


> Thats highly debatable and irrelevant too, Kings defenses are above sanjis attack power while sajis defenses are not above Kings attack power.
> Fucking Queen ate shit ton of attacks attacks before he went down and hes nowhere near on defense on King


How are sanjis defenses not above kings attack power, and how are kings defenses above sanji? How is queen not nowhere near as defensive as king? Kings attacks hit queen and queen shrugged them off

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Siskebabas (Jan 17, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> How are sanjis defenses not above kings attack power, and how are kings defenses above sanji? How is queen not nowhere near as defensive as king? Kings attacks hit queen and queen shrugged them off


Are you serious? Those two are are not even close in defense, only simirality is having dinosaurs hide. 
To elaborate more King is even above dragon in thoughness and shrugging off Zoros attack. 
What do you means attacks, he was hit by one blade. 
Queen was damaging sanji just fine, while yes Sanji post DNA upgrade is though mofo and it would take time to grind him down.


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 17, 2022)

For me it's not necessary to put Zoro's opponent above Sanji in every case. 

Kaku wasn't also above Sanji at EL. It is similar with Current Wano Arc

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1 | Optimistic 2


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