# Naruto vs Hashirama



## Danovic (Oct 25, 2016)

Hey guys, new to this forum, tried looking this question up but couldn't find it, anyways i just wanted to know who you guys think is stronger, naruto or hashirama?

Personally I think naruto would destroy, but that is jsut my personal opinion since i have seem, lots of people say that Hashirama would beat naruto. Naruto is not even my favorite character but i still think that he and sasuke are currently the strongest shinobi of all time, anyways thats my opinion please gives yours.


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

Danovic said:


> Hey guys,


Hello 


Danovic said:


> new to this forum,


Welcome to the forums !

And to answer your thread :


17 years old Naruto surpassed Hashirama , RSM Naruto stomps Hashiramas , Hokage Naruto stomps even 5 Hashiramas , the Last KCSM/BSM stomps Hashirama .

Reactions: Like 1


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 25, 2016)

Hashi was the God of Shinobi until the 4th great war. By the time he became Hokage, Naruto was leaps and bounds above Hashirama. It was kinda symbolized when his and Sasuke's fight completely blew apart the statues of Hashi/Madara's historic fight. Aside from Sasuke and probably Hagoromo and Hamura (I don't count Kaguya as a shinobi), there's no shinobi in his league


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

Naruto surpassed Hashirama the moment he got Hagoromo Boost Pack during the 4th Great Shinobi War! Till then Hashirama was at the Top of Human Shinobi and unsurpassed!


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## Kyu (Oct 25, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> Aside from Sasuke and probably Hagoromo and Hamura (I don't count Kaguya as a shinobi), there's no shinobi in his league



IIRC, Hagoromo & Hamura weren't shinobi either, so Naruto and Sasuke are the strongest ninja overall.

Yeah you can throw Triclops Madara in there too but lets call it how it is, he had his hands full with teenage Naruto/Sasuke before they mastered their newly acquired powers.



Danovic said:


> Personally I think naruto would destroy, but that is jsut my personal opinion since i have seem, lots of people say that Hashirama would beat naruto. Naruto is not even my favorite character but i still think that he and sasuke are currently the strongest shinobi of all time, anyways thats my opinion please gives yours.



You would be correct.

During the 4th ninja war, Hashirama was surpassed by several ninja - Naruto being the most notable. The gap widened since then.

All in all, it was happening regardless of Hagoromo's intervention.


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 25, 2016)

Kyu said:


> IIRC, Hagoromo & Hamura weren't shinobi either, so Naruto and Sasuke are the strongest ninja overall.
> 
> Yeah you can throw Triclops Madara in there too but lets call it how it is, he had his hands full with teenage Naruto/Sasuke before they mastered their newly acquired powers.
> 
> ...


I thought Hagoromo was considered the original shinobi?


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## Kyu (Oct 25, 2016)

Pretty sure that wasn't his occupation. 

Dude spent his life spreading his religion around the globe in hopes of mutual understanding and whatnot. I don't even recall his sons being called shinobi, only their descendants were.


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 25, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Pretty sure that wasn't his occupation.
> 
> Dude spent his life spreading his religion around the globe in hopes of mutual understanding and whatnot. I don't even recall his sons being called shinobi, only their descendants were.


he also spread chakra with it. Though he ACTUALLY was the originator of Ninshuu, as time passed they all viewed him as the creator of Ninjutsu


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> he also spread chakra with it. Though he ACTUALLY was the originator of Ninshuu, as time passed they all viewed him as the creator of Ninjutsu


Naruto pretty much did the same when he shared his chakra between the SA forces , not only his chakra but his feelings and memories as well , this is similar to the teachings of the Ninshuu


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## ARGUS (Oct 25, 2016)

Naruto takes a dump in his mouth

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Naruto takes a dump in his mouth


Lol come on mate,let's have some respect at least for Hashirama!


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

I think the " Naruto digs up Hashirama's waifu and plows her infront of him " sounds better

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I think the " Naruto digs up Hashirama's waifu and plows her infront of him " sounds better


Haha come on!! What's with all the rudeness towards Hashirama!?  It really makes me sad...

It was bound that the Main Character will surpass him and even then he did it with Hagoromo help...but why all the hate towards Shodai Hokage!? :/

Reactions: Friendly 3


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## Ayala (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Haha come on!! What's with all the rudeness towards Hashirama!?  It really makes me sad...
> 
> It was bound that the Main Character will surpass him and even then he did it with Hagoromo help...but why all the hate towards Shodai Hokage!? :/



I don't think it's hate, but simply the average NBD member's way of declaring Naruto's utter superiority over Hashirama.

OT: Kakashi wins.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rai (Oct 25, 2016)

Naruto


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Haha come on!! What's with all the rudeness towards Hashirama!?  It really makes me sad...


Well then , i'm sorry , i apology , i was only joking , nothing serious  


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> It was bound that the Main Character will surpass him and even then he did it with Hagoromo help...but why all the hate towards Shodai Hokage!? :/


He didn't actually need Hago , he was already having the potentials to surpass him with half Kyuubi and a toad sage mode .remember Tobirama's words ? Hago only made the process faster , because things couldn't handle waiting . Situation was messed up with Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara , Kaguya , and all that .

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Troyse22 (Oct 25, 2016)

Danovic said:


> Hey guys, new to this forum, tried looking this question up but couldn't find it, anyways i just wanted to know who you guys think is stronger, naruto or hashirama?
> 
> Personally I think naruto would destroy, but that is jsut my personal opinion since i have seem, lots of people say that Hashirama would beat naruto. Naruto is not even my favorite character but i still think that he and sasuke are currently the strongest shinobi of all time, anyways thats my opinion please gives yours.



Welcome to the battledome!

Naruto would rip Hashiramas head off and shit down his neck, bury him, dig him up 2 years later and shit on his skeleton.

Naruto became Hashiramas equal when he achieved BSM and surpassed him with his Rikudo power up.

RSBM 100% Kyuubi Asura avatar would absolutely shit on anything Hashirama can deal with.

Senpo SS gets turned to dust with almost laughable difficulty


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Well then , i'm sorry , i apology , i was only joking , nothing serious
> 
> He didn't actually need Hago , he was already having the potentials to surpass him with half Kyuubi and a toad sage mode .remember Tobirama's words ? Hago only made the process faster , because things couldn't handle waiting . Situation was messed up with Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara , Kaguya , and all that .


Yeah I do agree! But Teen Naruto with 50% Kurama is still weaker than Hashirama. A can see Adult Naruto with 100% Kurama to be able beat Hashirama without Hagoromo Powers. But still it will be a close match. 

Anyway he is the Main Character of the whole Manga/Anime so logically he Surpassed Hashirama especially as a Hokage as an Adult. That's only Normal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Yeah I do agree! But Teen Naruto with 50% Kurama is still weaker than Hashirama. A can see Adult Naruto with 100% Kurama to be able beat Hashirama without Hagoromo Powers. But still it will be a close match.
> 
> Anyway he is the Main Character of the whole Manga/Anime so logically he Surpassed Hashirama especially as a Hokage as an Adult. That's only Normal.



I personally disagree with 50% Naruto being below Hashi, 50% Kyuubi BSM Naruto was roughly Hashiramas equal.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## ARGUS (Oct 25, 2016)

Uhh no. 
If naruto doesn't have RSM, then he gets wrecked 
No incarnation of BSM has or would ever be stronger than Hashirama when it's max is literally just full Kyuubi with toad sm

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 2


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## solid-soul (Oct 25, 2016)

harashima wins blindfolded....
naruto  wont even last a minute without his ghost friend * power up.

dont let the fanboys fool you son, harashima was never surpassed
 hes know as a god for a reason *

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 4


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> No incarnation of BSM has or would ever be stronger than Hashirama when it's max is literally just full Kyuubi with toad sm


Tobirama disagree with you tho .
You can stay in denial that adult BSM won't beat the shit off Hashirama , but literally nothing support you in this .


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

solid-soul said:


> harashima was never surpassed


Keep fantasizing .


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Tobirama disagree with you tho .
> You can stay in denial that adult BSM won't beat the shit off Hashirama , but literally nothing support you in this .


Tobirama said Naruto had the Potential to become greater Hokage,not Stronger if I remember correctly! So I think that any version of Naruto without Six Paths Chakra or Mode will lose with Different Difficulty to Hashirama. Except may be his Adult Self with 100% Kurama and no Rikudou Powers but I still see it as a toss up!


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Tobirama said Naruto had the Potential to become greater Hokage,


He said that after Naruto was goind to combine his TBB with Senjutsu , so he was referring to power .


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> not Stronger if I remember correctly! So I think that any version of Naruto without Six Paths Chakra or Mode will lose with Different Difficulty to Hashirama. Except may be his Adult Self with 100% Kurama and no Rikudou Powers but I still see it as a toss up!


No , the kid was only *16 years old* , using a power he got *literally a day ago* , and using *BSM for the first freaking time *against a Juubi Jinchuuriki  he abviously would've gotten much , much , much , stronger if he mastered his power over time .
I wonder how strok Hashirama was at 16 years old ck 
Maybe i should make a thread " 16 years old Naruto vs 16 years old Hashirama " and see who wins  
Naruto was already superior to Hashirama in few things even before he surpassed him completely  
Adult BSM Naruto would wreck Hashirama , low difficulty .


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Naruto pretty much did the same when he shared his chakra between the SA forces , not only his chakra but his feelings and memories as well , this is similar to the teachings of the Ninshuu


I know what you're saying, but Hagoromo gave chakra networks to people that never even had one. Naruto did share his chakra with everyone, giving them bijuu cloaks. But I believe that Ino stated his thoughts and feelings were transmitted due to her jutsu. But the big difference between what Naruto and Hagoromo did was Hagoromo gave the people the ability to infuse and use chakra. While Naruto gave them the incredible Kyuubi Cloak that enhanced their already existent chakra network. By Hagoromo giving them the ability to use chakra from nothing is what makes him the creator of shinobi, because he did quite literally make regular people into people that can wield chakra, aka shinobi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> He said that after Naruto was goind to combine his TBB with Senjutsu , so he was referring to power .
> 
> No , the kid was only *16 years old* , using a power he got *literally a day ago* , and using *BSM for the first freaking time *against a Juubi Jinchuuriki  he abviously would've gotten much , much , much , stronger if he mastered his power over time .
> I wonder how strok Hashirama was at 16 years old ck
> ...


I agree on the Adult Part but it won't be a stomp. Probably Mid  Diff!


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I know what you're saying, but Hagoromo gave chakra networks to people that never even had one. Naruto did share his chakra with everyone, giving them bijuu cloaks. But I believe that Ino stated his thoughts and feelings were transmitted due to her jutsu. But the big difference between what Naruto and Hagoromo did was Hagoromo gave the people the ability to infuse and use chakra. While Naruto gave them the incredible Kyuubi Cloak that enhanced their already existent chakra network. By Hagoromo giving them the ability to use chakra from nothing is what makes him the creator of shinobi, because he did quite literally make regular people into people that can wield chakra, aka shinobi


I know that , but it was just a symbolic thing , for example , Naruto meeting the Bijuu and standing in the middle of them similar to Hagoromo , kinda making him look like as if he was the new sage of the six paths .


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I agree on the Adult Part but it won't be a stomp. Probably Mid  Diff!


Alright then , mid diff fight .


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I know that , but it was just a symbolic thing , for example , Naruto meeting the Bijuu and standing in the middle of them similar to Hagoromo , kinda making him look like as if he was the new sage of the six paths .


I know what you mean, though I thought it had a slightly different symbolic meaning. It wasn't that Naruto was replacing him, but rather fulfilling Gamamaru's prophecy of the blond hair blue-eyed child that called all 9 bijuu by name that Hagoromo said was to guide them in a better way than he was able to, which is why it flashed back to the Hago/young bijuu scene where he explainied the prophecy to them upon their parting. I saw it as more of him succeeding him rather than replacing him. Though you could argue that him succeeding him WAS replacing him. I view it differently

Reactions: Like 2


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## solid-soul (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Keep fantasizing .


kakashi would suck  naruto dick without asking, his opinion is irrelevant to me.

harishama was never surpassed, a true god of hard work.
naruto can have all the bijus powers he wants, but against the first kages it means nothing.
hashirama moves set alone is just too much for someone like naruto to handle.

harashima wins no contest

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 25, 2016)

solid-soul said:


> kakashi would suck  naruto dick without asking, his opinion is irrelevant to me.
> 
> harishama was never surpassed, a true god of hard work.
> naruto can have all the bijus powers he wants, but against the first kages it means nothing.
> ...


Didn't Tobirama also say something along the lines of Naruto was going to be a better Hokage than Hashirama as well? I can't recall it completely, but I remember him thinking something along those lines


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

Tobirama


The All Unknowing said:


> Didn't Tobirama also say something along the lines of Naruto was going to be a better Hokage than Hashirama as well? I can't recall it completely, but I remember him thinking something along those lines


said that Naruto may be will turn out to be greater Hokage than Hashirama. Not literally that he will be one or that he is already one! But still Adult Naruto is above Hashirama.


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## Muah (Oct 25, 2016)

Naruto is fast and strong. It would be hard for hashirama to deal with that. Dont know how fast and strong but its a little better or worse ten ten tail jyuubi. I think hasi can handle the nukes but even if he did hold down naruto for awhile naruto still has the slightly better stanima.

We also have to consider if naruto spent years working on the basics or just kept up on his hax. Hashi was on such a high level idk if naruto could even to dream to compete skillwise.

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## The All Unknowing (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Tobirama
> 
> said that Naruto may be will turn out to be greater Hokage than Hashirama. Not literally that he will be one or that he is already one! But still Adult Naruto is above Hashirama.


ah, guess I forgot the "maybe" part. It was when Oro said Sasuke would be a shinobi to pass Madara, and I thought Tobirama said Naruto would surpass Hashirama. But "may pass Hashirama" makes as good of sense. Though I agree, as an adult, he definitely did surpass him. And every Kage

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

solid-soul said:


> kakashi would suck naruto dick without asking, his opinion is irrelevant to me.


This is a canon statement in canon manga , and it's written by Kishimoto , whether you think it's relevant or not doesn't matter at all .


solid-soul said:


> harishama was never surpassed, a true god of hard work.
> naruto can have all the bijus powers he wants, but against the first kages it means nothing.
> hashirama moves set alone is just too much for someone like naruto to handle.


I see then , no real arguments , just talk .
Breaking news : fanboys " opinion " means zero against the manga .



solid-soul said:


> harashima wins no contest


Naruto stomps his ass super low difficulty .


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> This is a canon statement in canon manga , and it's written by Kishimoto , whether you think it's relevant or not doesn't matter at all .
> 
> I see then , no real arguments , just talk .
> Breaking news : fanboys " opinion " means zero against the manga .
> ...


Mate lets not forget that you Scan you show is Naruto with Rikudou Chakra and Rikudou Sage Mode ! Not just Biju Sage Mode Naruto!


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Mate lets not forget that you Scan you show is Naruto with Rikudou Chakra and Rikudou Sage Mode ! Not just Biju Sage Mode Naruto!


First of all , OP didn't specify which version of Naruto is this , we're talking overall .
Second of all , that's Naruto who got Hago's power literally less than 15 minutes ago . That's not enuff to be stronger than adult BSM , but still strong enuff to step on Hashirama .
He didn't even know he could fly yet


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

I know


cctr9 said:


> First of all , OP didn't specify which version of Naruto is this , we're talking overall .
> Second of all , that's Naruto who got Hago's power literally less than 15 minutes ago . That's not enuff to be stronger than adult BSM , but still strong enuff to step on Hashirama .
> He didn't even know he could fly yet


I know what the OP said,and we all agree that Naruto with Hagoromo Boost is above Hashirama,and 15 seconds or not,it is and Immense Power Up nonetheless! You forget how Naruto Characters suddenly get some power up and fight it as they have grown with it,but of course more experience is always better and stronger! 

As I have said BSM Naruto is not Stronger than Hashirama especially as a Teen and with 50% Kurama,but Teen Naruto with RSM is way above Hashirama! While Adult Naruto with Rikudou Chakra is even more leagues above Hashirama and when you add 100% Kurama it is even more. However Adult Naruto with just 100% Kurama and no Rikudou Boost is equal or slightly Superior to Hashirama but still superior whatsoever!


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I know what the OP said,and we all agree that Naruto with Hagoromo Boost is above Hashirama,and 15 seconds or not,it is and Immense Power Up nonetheless! You forget how Naruto Characters suddenly get some power up and fight it as they have grown with it,but of course more experience is always better and stronger!


You have to stop comparing teen BSM Naruto with RSM . As war arc Naruto didn't have anytime to master his power , yet he was very close to his level . Which is impressive when you look at his age , and then when you take the fact that he was using a power he just got in the same day . Hashirama was like in his 40s , or 60s (?) , he already hit his prime and already mastered all of his power , his wood style , his sage mode . Yet he had a 16 years old kid being compared to him with just half Kyuubi . 
Just look at how strong base Naruto and base Sasuke got in the Last which is only 2 years after the war . Just in base .
And then you get people like @ARGUS saying adult BSM won't kick Hashirama's ass , yeah right  


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> As I have said BSM Naruto is not Stronger than Hashirama especially as a Teen and with 50% Kurama


I never said he was , i said he was getting very close , which is impressive when you look at his age , and how long was he using BSM .


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> However Adult Naruto with just 100% Kurama and no Rikudou Boost is equal or slightly Superior to Hashirama but still superior whatso


He beats him with mid difficulty .


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> You have to stop comparing teen BSM Naruto with RSM . As war arc Naruto didn't have anytime to master his power , yet he was very close to his level . Which is impressive when you look at his age , and then when you take the fact that he was using a power he just got in the same day . Hashirama was like in his 40s , or 60s (?) , he already hit his prime and already mastered all of his power , his wood style , his sage mode . Yet he had a 16 years old kid being compared to him with just half Kyuubi .
> Just look at how strong base Naruto and base Sasuke got in the Last which is only 2 years after the war . Just in base .
> And then you get people like @ARGUS saying adult BSM won't kick Hashirama's ass , yeah right
> 
> ...


Well we don't have any info about Hashirama on 16 so let's not compared him to BSM 16 Naruto...

The end point is that one way or another,Adult Naruto and RSM Teen Naruto,but Ultimately Naruto surpassed Hashirama,which is the main point of this Thread anyway my friend!  And that is something we all can agree on!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well we don't have any info about Hashirama on 16 so let's not compared him to BSM 16 Naruto...


When know he was no where near his adult power level , much like Madara . It's common sense .
Unless you think kid Hashirama was already using masive scaled Mokuton forests or a huge mountains dwarfing Buddha !?
Or that kid Madara was using a mountain ranges busting PS .
All characters went through the same process , why would Hashirama be an exception ? 


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> The end point is that one way or another,Adult Naruto and RSM Teen Naruto,but Ultimately Naruto surpassed Hashirama,which is the main point of this Thread anyway my friend!


Agreed my dear .


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> When know he was no where near his adult power level , much like Madara . It's common sense .
> Unless you think kid Hashirama was already using masive scaled Mokuton forests or a huge mountains dwarfing Buddha !?
> Or that kid Madara was using a mountain ranges busting PS .
> All characters went through the same process , why would Hashirama be an exception ?
> ...


I doubt the SS ,but he most surely could have used some Massive Mokutons and Probably had Mastered the Elements and shit,and may have even learned SM too. But it is a big unknown! 

Unlike Hashirama,Madaras Powers need more specific Requirements such as MS and EMD all of which are not gained with Skill,Training or Hard Work or something like it. So if kid Madara didn't have MS since he haven't still haven't killed his closest friends doesn't mean Hashirama didn't had  Mokujin or Mokuryu or High Chakra Reserves or even SM at 16!


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## solid-soul (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> This is a canon statement in canon manga , and it's written by Kishimoto , whether you think it's relevant or not doesn't matter at all .
> 
> I see then , no real arguments , just talk .
> Breaking news : fanboys " opinion " means zero against the manga .
> ...



the only thing naruto can surpassed Hashirama with is been givin free power up.

 Hashirama is just to versatile for a character like naruto to handle....

Reactions: Like 1


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 25, 2016)

solid-soul said:


> the only thing naruto can surpassed Hashirama with is been givin free power up.
> 
> Hashirama is just to versatile for a character like naruto to handle....


wasn't Hashirama being Ashura's transmigrant also him being given free power. And according to Hagoromo, where he always gave Ashura's transmigrants all the power, and Indra's none, wouldn't that imply that Hashirama was actually given more than Naruto?


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I doubt the SS ,but he most surely could have used some Massive Mokutons and Probably had Mastered the Elements and shit,and may have even learned SM too. But it is a big unknown!


Even if he did , they won't be as strong as when he is adult abviously , for example , SM Naruto and Gaara are far weaker than adult SM Naruto and adult Gaara despite using the same powers (Sage mode and Sand i mean) , every character gtes stronger over time , and no character ever started at the top from day one , that's just using simple logic . Teen Naruto was being compared to adult Hashirama , not teen Hashirama who can't be compared to teen Naruto for abvious reasons .


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Unlike Hashirama,Madaras Powers need more specific Requirements such as MS and EMD all of which are not gained with Skill,Training or Hard Work or something like it


Um no , Hashirama was born with a magical body , strong life force , cells that can heal even cancer , and nullify the drawbacks of MS usage , and the wood style KKG , no ? he just had to expand his powers and work on it to make it stronger . Madara may had the MS , but the tool is only as strong as the Shinobi , you don't see all MS users in the same level do you ?


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

solid-soul said:


> the only thing naruto can surpassed Hashirama with is been givin free power up.


Yeah , so ?


solid-soul said:


> Hashirama is just to versatile for a character like naruto to handle....


Nah bruh , a barrage of TBBRS and he bites the dust .


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 25, 2016)

On a scale of like 1-100 Hashirama being 100 

Pt 1 Naruto 5 

Wind Arc Naruto 25

SM Naruto 50

KCM Naruto 50

BM Naruto 75

BSM Naruto 100

RSM Naruto 125

RSM/BM Naruto 150


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 25, 2016)

solid-soul said:


> kakashi would suck  naruto dick without asking, his opinion is irrelevant to me.


LMAOO!


solid-soul said:


> kakashi would suck  naruto dick without asking, his opinion is irrelevant to me.
> 
> harishama was never surpassed, a true god of hard work.
> naruto can have all the bijus powers he wants, but against the first kages it means nothing.
> ...


On Topic, you're out of your mind…
RSM Naruto rushes and one-shots his ass…

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Oct 25, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> LMAOO!
> 
> On Topic, you're out of your mind…
> RSM Naruto rushes and one-shots his ass…


The nonsense detector has detected some nonsense it seems

Reactions: Like 1


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The nonsense detector has detected some nonsense it seems


Can never go a day with out detecting at least one.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Kyu (Oct 25, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> he also spread chakra with it. Though he ACTUALLY was the originator of Ninshuu, as time passed they all viewed him as the creator of Ninjutsu



Yep ninjutsu, which is a more weaponized ninshuu.

While he ain't a ninja, the man(or whatever he is) paved the way for countless shinobi to come, although not in the way he  anticipated.



solid-soul said:


> harishama was never surpassed, a true god of hard work.



>God of hard work
>Inherited godly life energy and Mokuton from a dead ancestor

At least from what we know, Naruto came from shit, turned curses into gifts & trained his ass off to use his main shit without a hitch. One "free" power-up doesn't negate hard work he put in that brought him to the big dance in the first place.


Hashirama-fans just need to take solace in the fact Kishimoto didn't get the opportunity to royally poo poo on Hashi's character like he did Naruto's, and move the fuck on.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 25, 2016)

So let me get this straight,Hashirama inherited magical body and life force as descendent  of Ashura,hmmm and Naruto as an Uzumaki and also descendent of Ashura didn't inherited those!? o_O I am sorry but this is hypocritical thinking!!

Naruto and Hashirama had both those thraits,but may ne Hashirama slightly more as a more direct descendent,but fact is Naruto needed a Bijuu and SM to get to Hashirama Level who had SM and Mokuton,which he oddly enough didn't show sings of having as a kid. Facts is Hashirama mastered All Elements while Naruto just got Power Upgrades for free. Also where is said Hashirama Ability to Heal and Regeneration was something he was born with!? Why couldn't he have invented his own version of Byakugo thanks to his Immense Chakra Pool and stronger body!? Naruto ultimately needed the "strongest" Bijuu in existence and may be even pieces from the rest on top of hus magical body and life force along with SM! 

Fact is that Hashirama would still he stronger than Naruto if Naruto didn't have the Kyubi or Hashirama. Having Kekkei Genkai is not the same as giving someone power on purpose as Minato gave Naruto the Kyubi and even his mother to help him. Also where is the proof Hashirama was born with the ability to use Mokuton and didn't learn it somehow!?

But anyway,as I said ultimately Naruto was supposed to and did surpassed Hashirama one way or another! But please don't make Hashirama and asshole for having advantages witch Naruto also has and even more!


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## Kyu (Oct 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> So let me get this straight,Hashirama inherited magical body and life force as descendent of Ashura,hmmm and Naruto as an Uzumaki and also descendent of Ashura didn't inherited those!?



Nardo didn't receive the powers Hashi did from Asura. This is not even up for debate.

You can arrive to your own conclusions as to _why_.



Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> But anyway,as I said ultimately Naruto was supposed to and did surpassed Hashirama one way or another! But please don't make Hashirama and asshole for having advantages witch Naruto also has and even more!



Dude, *I like Hashirama*, I just don't gargle his cum and act like he'd be a Mokuton monster without the aid of a dead guy's chakra.

Same with Naruto, however he's got more options to fall back on.


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## ARGUS (Oct 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Tobirama disagree with you tho .
> You can stay in denial that adult BSM won't beat the shit off Hashirama , but literally nothing support you in this .


Again, fanboys love misinterpreting the manga 

Tobirama stated that naruto had the "potential" to surpass him 
This potential never meant BSM, it only meant that naruto may gain a form that'll make him above Hashirama 

But Hashirama > BSM naruto was an established manga fact 

Adult naruto without rikudo chakra would still be just full Kyuubi with toad SM, 
That's even below PS and Full Kyuubi that Hashirama canonically defeated 

So try all you want 
But the only portrayal that puts naruto above Hashirama is when he got RSM. 
BSM gets mid diffd by feats and is below logical scaling and portrayal

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 25, 2016)

Naruto only wins if he's using his strongest mode (RSM). Hashirama defeats any other version.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Android (Oct 26, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Again, fanboys love misinterpreting the manga


Just cuz i don't wank the fuck outtah of Hashirama and think that _adult_ Naruto would whoop his ass when feats and logic are my side and not yours , doesn't make me a fanboy .
And looking at your track record of throwing many canon manga statements that puts characters A above characters B , you should not be taking your own interpretation as a fact , because with all due respect , your analysis means _zero_ if you are only going to follow your own path of thinking and ignore what's canon .


ARGUS said:


> Tobirama stated that naruto had the "potential" to surpass him


No shit son , that's exactly what he said , but _that_ Naruto whom Tobirama said that he was going to surpass Hashirama had :
- Sage mode .
- Half of the Kyuubi chakra .As his full power
Tobirama doesn't now that Naruto will gain the other half of Kurama , he doesn't know that he will get the sage of the six paths chakra , he doesn't know that he will get another power up anytime soon , yet just by looking at his current potentials (Toad sage mode + Jinchuuriki of half Kyuubi) was in Tobirama's eyes enuff to surpass his brother .


ARGUS said:


> This potential never meant BSM, it only meant that naruto may gain a form that'll make him above Hashirama



May gain a new form ????? how da-fuq does that even makes a shred of sense ????
Tobirama doesn't have any idea that Naruto might get sage of the six paths chakra , hell , he doesn't even know that he will get the other half of the Kyuubi .
but he knows how strong his brother is , and he thought that Naruto with just being Jinchuuriki of the Kyuubi and having senjutsu very well capable of surpassing his brother .
A freaking 16 years old kid 
I wonder how stronk Hashirama was when he was a kid like Naruto 


ARGUS said:


> But Hashirama > BSM naruto was an established manga fact


The only things that was established is that 16 years old BSM Naruto was still behind Hashirama and that he was in his way to surpass him , Hagoromo's power or not .
War arc BSM Naruto was already superior to Hashirama in some categories 


ARGUS said:


> Adult naruto without rikudo chakra would still be just full Kyuubi with toad SM,
> That's even below PS and Full Kyuubi that Hashirama canonically defeated


Adult BSM Naruto is the Jinchuuriki of the strongest Bijuu , and we all know that a Jinchuuriki is much stronger than Bijuu alone .
INB4 hurr that apply only to the Juubi when feats and portrayal and manga statements (Deidara's) 
As a perfect Jinchuuriki , Kurama gains a chakra mode  and we all know that chakra modes are all heightened transformations , Naruto gains a chakra mode , super speed , super reflexes , super human strength , super sensing , the ability to absorb the NE of the world ...... etc etc
Meanwhile , Kurama - under Madara's Sharingan control - did nothing more than fire TBBs 
And then there's the fact that any boost Naruto's chakra gets , Kurama gets as well .
So SM >>> to base Naruto .
Then BSM  >>> to BM Naruto .
And then you have adult Naruto's feats w/o RSM . Blitzing across the surface of the moon and appearing as just a streak of light , his super great ball Rasengan destroying the Shinjuu and sending Momoshiki to the outer space . Kurama's smallest TBB blowing the Otsutsui statue to outer space .
While Kurama under Madara's control , it's TBB couldn't scratch the Hobi Jutsu .
Inb4 the same Hobi can tank the Last BSM Kurama's TBB 


ARGUS said:


> So try all you want
> But the only portrayal that puts naruto above Hashirama is when he got RSM.


And you can try to ignore the manga all you want , but Naruto with just half BSM was capable of surpassing Hashirama , and he did , as feat shows , and as manga supports son .
Naruto was going to surpass Hashi , with or w/o Hago's power . whether you think mannga supports that or not , doesn't really matter .


ARGUS said:


> BSM gets mid diffd by feats and is below logical scaling and portrayal


Not sure what feats/logic/power scaling/portrayal you're talking about , but they sure as hell don't exist in Kishi's story .
Adult Naruto with just BSM would wipe the floor with Hashirama's face son .
GG

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## Danovic (Oct 27, 2016)

would naruto and sasuke be considered the strongest shinobi of all time? i personally think so, what is your opinion?

And also do you think naruto and sasuke got stronger after the last timeskip and in boruto the movie, or did they get weaker?


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## Danovic (Oct 27, 2016)

solid-soul said:


> harashima wins blindfolded....
> naruto  wont even last a minute without his ghost friend * power up.
> 
> dont let the fanboys fool you son, harashima was never surpassed
> hes know as a god for a reason *


Hey, just wondering, what makes you think that naruto would not win without hagoromo's powers, i honestly think that after the fight with kaguya, naruto with just toad sage mode or even normal naruto would be able to defeat hashirama, and if not that then adult naruto can definetly take him without the powerups


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 27, 2016)

Danovic said:


> Hey, just wondering, what makes you think that naruto would not win without hagoromo's powers, i honestly think that after the fight with kaguya, naruto with just toad sage mode or even normal naruto would be able to defeat hashirama, and if not that then adult naruto can definetly take him without the powerups


Lol to think that the most Base Naruto without any power ups would beat Hashirama is ridiculous to me!!

The whole point is that Naruto needed The Whole.Kurama with SM and even RSM to surpass Hashirama!


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## Android (Oct 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Lol to think that the most Base Naruto without any power ups would beat Hashirama is ridiculous to me!!


Agree .
Naruto needs his strongest/2nd strongest transformation to beat him .


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## RBL (Oct 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Naruto surpassed Hashirama the moment he got Hagoromo Boost Pack during the 4th Great Shinobi War! Till then Hashirama was at the Top of Human Shinobi and unsurpassed!



gai would shit on hashirama, so,no, hashiram was never the strongest


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 27, 2016)

Brandon Lee said:


> gai would shit on hashirama, so,no, hashiram was never the strongest


Yeah Gai in one Mode for few Minutes indeed,but over all as a Shinobi no! Gai is not on Hashirama or Madara Level.

I wonder how will Gai do against Genjutsu like Bringer of Darkness even in 8th Gate,let alone 7th and less. Especially without Proper Knowledge and starting in Base as it should.

But ok you can go against Kishi words and say that before Naruto and Sasuke got Hagoromo Powera Gai was the true God of Shinobi.


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## RBL (Oct 27, 2016)

being a god of shinobi doesn't mean you are the strongest one.

hachimon tonkou is gai's technique, is gai's power, even if it kills him.

hashirama could never dream of landing a hit on a madara that had juubi and sage mode absorved.

you can downplay gai all you want, but he is stronger than hashirama.


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## Kyu (Oct 27, 2016)

Danovic said:


> Hey, just wondering, what makes you think that naruto would not win without hagoromo's powers, i honestly think that after the fight with kaguya, naruto with just toad sage mode or even normal naruto would be able to defeat hashirama



Eh... I dunno.



Danovic said:


> if not that then adult naruto can definetly take him without the powerups


Not unlikely:



> _Superior H2H_
> 
> 
> _COFR kills God Tiers_
> ...


/a guy who's a living, breathing death sentence for Hashirama in close quarters

 I wanna say SS squashes base Nardo before he runs up but it might not go that smoothly, when you look at the blond's endless supply of doppelgangers tricks & how deceptively fast he is on his feet(scaling from VotE II Nardo/Sauce).

The result depends heavily on how far apart they start away from each other.


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 27, 2016)

I still wish Kishi would have explained how Hashirama died. he was obviously at a fairly young age, but there's not even a hint as to how he died...


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## TRN (Oct 27, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I still wish Kishi would have explained how Hashirama died. he was obviously at a fairly young age, but there's not even a hint as to how he died...



Hashirama died in his 60s didn't he ( I've read it somewhere)


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 27, 2016)

TRN said:


> Hashirama died in his 60s didn't he ( I've read it somewhere)


Does he look like 60 when revived!? I don't remember anywhere being stated at what age he died!! 

Kishi made him to powerful and became too lazy himself to think of a way to kill him! Heck even after developing more Tobirama character even his death seems illogical and not proper! :/


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## TRN (Oct 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Does he look like 60 when revived!? I don't remember anywhere being stated at what age he died!!
> 
> Kishi made him to powerful and became too lazy himself to think of a way to kill him! Heck even after developing more Tobirama character even his death seems illogical and not proper! :/




I'm sure someone can confirm he was in his late 50s-60

He had children who grew up to have children's when he still was alive unless he had kids at the age of 10


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 27, 2016)

TRN said:


> I'm sure someone can confirm he was in his late 50s-60
> 
> He had children who grew up to have children's


It is quite possible though! With his Senju Life Force and Long Live and shit! And considering he knew Tsunade....but Kishi time line is too uncertain and flawed :/


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## Serene Grace (Oct 27, 2016)

lmfao, to the people actually defending hashi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 27, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> lmfao, to the people actually defending hashi.


Who is defending him and from what!? The major consensus is that Naruto did surpass Hashirama! Especially as and Adult with Rikudou Powers and as a Teen with RSM!!

We are just arguing that BSM is not enough to beat Hashirama. 

But the point of the Thread is did Naruto surpassed Hashirama and could he beat him,and the answer is yes!


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## Android (Oct 27, 2016)

Yeah , i also read once that Hashirama died in his 60s

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yeah , i also read once that Hashirama died in his 60s


Well I read it too...here from you guys!  But without a proper and reliable source it remains a speculation! Hashirama doesnt seem so Old when Revived but as I said it may be due to his Senju lineige,but still if it was known on what age he died it would have been at least mentioned in Naruto Wiki or something. But Tobirama and Hashirama are never mentioned on what age they died,while for instance we know Minato was 24 I think.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Oct 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well I read it too...here from you guys!  But without a proper and reliable source it remains a speculation! Hashirama doesnt seem so Old when Revived but as I said it may be due to his Senju lineige,but still if it was known on what age he died it would have been at least mentioned in Naruto Wiki or something. But Tobirama and Hashirama are never mentioned on what age they died,while for instance we know Minato was 24 I think.


Tsunade seems to be young and hot as hell , guess what's her age


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## Android (Oct 27, 2016)

@TRN , thanks for the like bruh


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 28, 2016)

TRN said:


> I'm sure someone can confirm he was in his late 50s-60
> 
> He had children who grew up to have children's when he still was alive unless he had kids at the age of 10


I've known grandparents in their 30s

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 28, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Tsunade seems to be young and hot as hell , guess what's her age


Tsunade was using Her Jutsu and Chakra all the time for that purpose and was specifically mentioned to do so ,do you think Hashirama does the same!?


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 28, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Tsunade was using Her Jutsu and Chakra all the time for that purpose and was specifically mentioned to do so ,do you think Hashirama does the same!?


I suppose that's possible. She did claim that she created the byakugo in order to give her a way to perform Hashi's seal-less healing in a lesser way. So the argument could make some sense. Though I don't see Hashirama using that. Especially when Tobirama was Hokage at a young age, indicating that his older brother died prior to that, at a young age


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 28, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I suppose that's possible. She did claim that she created the byakugo in order to give her a way to perform Hashi's seal-less healing in a lesser way. So the argument could make some sense. Though I don't see Hashirama using that. Especially when Tobirama was Hokage at a young age, indicating that his older brother died prior to that, at a young age


It is just out of Character for Hashirama to use such a method,in my  opinion at  least! 

And indeed I was going to say the same,imagine how old should have Tobirama be if Hashirama was Hokage till his 60 O_O

And as you said one doesn't need to ne 50-60 to be Grandfather,here in my country I have seen people being Grandfathera as their 30-40....


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## ARGUS (Oct 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Just cuz i don't wank the fuck outtah of Hashirama and think that _adult_ Naruto would whoop his ass when feats and logic are my side and not yours , doesn't make me a fanboy .


Irrelevant.
And no *-snip-*
Hashirama > BSM naruto is a manga fact

As for adult naruto, lol nothing he has displayed comes even close to SS.
*-snip-* nothin changes the fact that he can't counter Chojo with his own TBB and his RS are useless

Inb4 you bring illogical feats that naruto could only do in RSm



> And looking at your track record of throwing many canon manga statements that puts characters A above characters B , you should not be taking your own interpretation as a fact , *because with all due respect , your analysis means zero if you are only going to follow your own path of thinking and ignore what's canon *


.
You mean how uou said that manga BSM naruto can beat him
Despite them saying he hadnt surpassed him yet




> No shit son , that's exactly what he said , but _that_ Naruto whom Tobirama said that he was going to surpass Hashirama had :
> - Sage mode .
> - Half of the Kyuubi chakra .As his full power
> Tobirama doesn't now that Naruto will gain the other half of Kurama , he doesn't know that he will get the sage of the six paths chakra , he doesn't know that he will get another power up anytime soon , yet just by looking at his current potentials (Toad sage mode + Jinchuuriki of half Kyuubi) was in Tobirama's eyes enuff to surpass his brother .
> ...


*-snip-*
BSM was never in play. Naruto was.
The consensus was not BSM surpassing Hashirama. It was naruto. But only over time

Jin of being half Kyuubi means rats ass, neither does full Kyuubi equate to being on hashiramas level when the man canonically beat PS and Full Kyuubi together
Both entities which would obliterate manga BSM naruto individually, let alone together

Let's also not forget how SS grabbed this full Kyuubi up like a puppy and put it to sleep.

Let's also not forget that this precious half Kyuubi was getting overwhelmed by EDo Madaras measly base mokuton let alone something like SS which renders all of his offense moot, can restrain him, and can obliterate the fuck out of it

*-snip-*
Him getting the extra half of Kyuubi won't change the fact that his offense gets caught and sent back at him

Won't change the fact how he can't tank Chojo

No portrayal puts any form of BSM above Hashirama and as explained his feats also don't suggest any thing

The dude literally needed free toys from hagoromo to surpass the man, 



> The only things that was established is that 16 years old BSM Naruto was still behind Hashirama and that he was in his way to surpass him , Hagoromo's power or not .
> *War arc BSM Naruto was already superior to Hashirama in some categories *


@bold - not Gna bother with idiots who can't even comprehend flat out statements
And lol in battle abilities, can naruto even counter myojinmon plus SS? No he can't, because the thing pinned down V3 juubi.
His precious half Kyuubi (soo stronk) gets pinned and then pasted by Chojo

*-snip-*



> Adult BSM Naruto is the Jinchuuriki of the strongest Bijuu , and we all know that a Jinchuuriki is much stronger than Bijuu alone .
> INB4 hurr that apply only to the Juubi when feats and portrayal and manga statements (Deidara's)


Yet that deidaras statement wAs refuted
The whole Jin>bijuu argument was only said before because bijuu were mindless

But that was retconned as shown that bijuu are stable, have a conscience and have even shown battle intellect

Then there are direct feats

-- Killer bees full power is just like Hachibis
-- Rinnegan obitos jins full power was just like their respective bijuus
-- half kyuubis flash TBB was just like  BM narutos

Kyuubi avatar IS Kyuubi itself
It's a mere chakra manifestation

So adult narutos BM avatar would be on par with full Kyuubi added with a small toad SM buff which doesn't even begin to make up the gap that Ps made



> As a perfect Jinchuuriki , Kurama gains a chakra mode  and we all know that chakra modes are all heightened transformations , [Naruto gains a chakra mode , super speed , super reflexes , super human strength , super sensing



Literally of this has been addressed or is irrelevant

1. Strength of Kyuubi was on par with base mokujin. SM would put it on SM mokujins level which is on par with PS.
SS >>>> PS = full BSM avatar = SM mokujin in that aspect
So garbage point

2. Heightened Senses are irrelevant against Chojo

3. Chakra mode is literally full Kyuubi with a SM buff. Your *assumption* of it being above the real thing is obviously baseless when the example you're giving is comparing base naruto to KN0
Garbage point again



> , the ability to absorb the NE of the world ...... etc etc


Feat of RSM naruto


> Meanwhile , Kurama - under Madara's Sharingan control - did nothing more than fire TBBs
> And then there's the fact that any boost Naruto's chakra gets , Kurama gets as well .


Yet that's all what's required
Unless you're willing to assert that narutos fanfic SM strength surpasses that of a TBB



> So SM >>> to base Naruto .
> Then BSM  >>> to BM Naruto .


Not how it works pal
Either have actual facts or don't make unsubstantiated claims

Feats Have already shown that the gap between BSM naruto and BM is it that significant to make up for the extra PS that still failed to take out SS



> And then you have adult Naruto's feats w/o RSM . Blitzing across the surface of the moon and appearing as just a streak of light ,


Even manga BM naruto has that feat
Irrelevant point


> his super great ball Rasengan destroying the Shinjuu


A mini shinju since it's nowhere near what the dsize of the manga one



> and sending Momoshiki to the outer space .


Who has no special durability
So irrelevant


> Kurama's smallest TBB blowing the Otsutsui statue to outer space .
> While Kurama under Madara's control , it's TBB couldn't scratch the Hobi Jutsu .
> Inb4 the same Hobi can tank the Last BSM Kurama's TBB


All that means is that hobi is above that statue in durability which is nothing far fetched
And yes, hobi can tank BSM TBB if it tanked full kyuubis TBB point blank with no significant damages




> And you can try to ignore the manga all you want , but Naruto with just half BSM was capable of surpassing Hashirama , and he did , as feat shows , and as manga supports son .
> Naruto was going to surpass Hashi , with or w/o Hago's power . whether you think mannga supports that or not , doesn't really matter .


Already addressed, and is either baseless or utter rubbish



> Not sure what feats/logic/power scaling/portrayal you're talking about , but they sure as hell don't exist in Kishi's story .
> Adult Naruto with just BSM would wipe the floor with Hashirama's face son .
> GG


You mean the same manga you choose to ignore
The same manga that said it flat out that BSM naruto is below him

The same manga which showed SS take out a far superior entity

*-snip-*
Adult BSM naruto doesn't do shit,
Myojinmon pins him down, then Chojo. Repeatedly turns him into a smear on the ground

Any TBB just gets sent back to his face. Especially when Jukai Kotan was suggested to do that,
Let alone SS with 1000 mountain dwarving hands

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

What Naruto are we talking about here. Naruto at VOTEII vs Hashirama would be a good fight, I do think Naruto would win, but it would likely be with extreme difficulty. Adult-Naruto is hard to rate right now as it's unclear how much he improved or how much he got rusty.


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## Veracity (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> What Naruto are we talking about here. Naruto at VOTEII vs Hashirama would be a good fight, I do think Naruto would win, but it would likely be with extreme difficulty. Adult-Naruto is hard to rate right now as it's unclear how much he improved or how much he got rusty.



How is Riduko Naruto vs Hashirama a good fight?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> How is Riduko Naruto vs Hashirama a good fight?


How is it not a good fight?


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## Kyu (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> How is it not a good fight?



One chopped down the Shinju without even utilizing his full power & _held his own against Kaguya_, the other admitted a brain-dead Juubster is above his paygrade.

An unbalanced fight if I've ever seen one.



ARGUS said:


> And yes, hobi can tank BSM TBB if it tanked full kyuubis TBB point blank with no significant damages



100%Kurama+post Rikudouhood Naruto w/ SM >>> 100% Kurama


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## Veracity (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> How is it not a good fight?


Because Riduko Naruto would obliterate Hashirama with a single clone. I mean Hashirama admitted inferiority to Juubito, and Base Riduko Naruto was  casually fucking up JJ Madara( he was weakened though). Fuck, Sasuke was bisecting Shinju absorbed Madara, and Naruto/Sasuke were kicking his ass before he awakened the 3rd eye. Hashirama couldn't stay in a battle like that without being obliterated.

I mean this panel kinda just explains everything:
bug

And this is coming from someone who's favorite characters are the Senju Bros. Hashirama vs BSM Naruto would be a good fight tbh.


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

Kyu said:


> One chopped down the Shinju without even utilizing his full power


Prove Hashirama couldn't do this



> & _held his own against Kaguya_,


If by held his own you mean, with the help of Sasuke, Obito, Kakashi, and Sakura; he and Sasuke were able to land a Jutsu given to them by the S06Ps, then sure, he held his own 



> the other admitted a brain-dead Juubster is above his paygrade.





Likes boss said:


> Because Riduko Naruto would obliterate Hashirama with a single clone. I mean Hashirama admitted inferiority to Juubito


Edo-Hashirama admitted Juubito was stronger than him, not VOTE-Hashirama. And even if Juubito was stronger than VOTE-Hashirama, I don't see how that relates to Naruto. It's not like we see Naruto soloing Juubito.



> Base Riduko Naruto was casually fucking up JJ Madara(* he was weakened though*)


You answered your own point with the bold. The moment JJ-Madara got serious he was able to fight competently against both Naruto and Sasuke combined. 



> Fuck, Sasuke was bisecting Shinju absorbed Madara


Sasuke got the opening to do so when fighting in conjunction with Naruto. They took him 2v1.



> and Naruto/Sasuke were kicking his ass before he awakened the 3rd eye. Hashirama couldn't stay in a battle like that without being obliterated.


I agree Hashirama would loose if Sasuke and Naruto took him 2v1 like they did Madara. But that doesn't relate to a 1v1.



> I mean this panel kinda just explains everything:
> Link removed
> .


Yeah we got a seen of Kakashi saying Naruto surpassed him too, then later we got a scene where Kakashi said Naruto is equal to him strength or maybe a bit stronger. So Naruto surpassing someone doesn't even mean he's stronger then them, surpassing is something not completely related to strength.


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## ARGUS (Oct 30, 2016)

Kyu said:


> 100%Kurama+post Rikudouhood Naruto w/ SM >>> 100% Kurama


Proof?


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## Veracity (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Prove Hashirama couldn't do this
> 
> 
> If by held his own you mean, with the help of Sasuke, Obito, Kakashi, and Sakura; he and Sasuke were able to land a Jutsu given to them by the S06Ps, then sure, he held his own
> ...


Are you trolling or?

Hashirama knows his own abilities. So you really think he was simply referring to his current power or are you gonna logic and assume the man that was taking on Hiruzen, Naruto, Sasuke, Tobirama, Minato, and the entire SA is stronger than the 1st.

No I didn't because Madara got serious after he aborbsed the Shinju tree. Madara before he absorbed the tree was already superior to Juubito so your point isn't valid. Base Naruto also fucked up the Madara who was capable of using all of his abilities; he used limbo just fine, Naruto just lol'd it.

Nope. Naruto wasn't even close to Madara or Sasuke when Sasuke bisected his ass. Naruto was chilling and sealing limbo clones. 


Post the scan. And I can't think of anything else surpassed could have meant? It had to have been from raw power, because Kakashi was appointined Hokage after the war


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Are you trolling or?
> 
> Hashirama knows his own abilities. So you really think he was simply referring to his current power


Considering he was using the present tense, yes I do



> r or are you gonna logic and assume the man that was taking on Hiruzen, Naruto, Sasuke, Tobirama, Minato, and the entire SA is stronger than the 1st.


Are you saying VOTE-Hashirama couldn't take these people?



> No I didn't because Madara got serious after he aborbsed the Shinju tree. Madara before he absorbed the tree was already superior to Juubito so your point isn't valid.


You really wanna go here, fine. First off all that's stated is Minato feels the power of the hermit greater in Madara than in Obito, which makes sense as Madara is closer to the Sage then Obito. He does not however say Madara without the tree is stronger than Obito w/ the tree.

Secondly at the time Naruto starts beating on Madara, Madara already was brought inches to death by 8th-Gate Gai, so he was hardly in top condition. 



> Nope. Naruto wasn't even close to Madara or Sasuke when Sasuke bisected his ass. Naruto was chilling and sealing limbo clones.


Sigh, Naruto and Sasuke created that opening together by countering Madara Rinbo together, thus not only checking Madara's Rinbo clone, but prompting Madara to go after Kakashi's eye to chase Obito down. It was during this moment while Madara was distracted that Sasuke manages to cut him in half, a move that doesn't defeat Madara mind you and one he easily reforms from anyway.



> Post the scan. And I can't think of anything else surpassed could have meant? It had to have been from raw power, because Kakashi was appointined Hokage after the war



Naruto ch 342:

Kakashi: He came up with a new strategy to ensure the jutsu would hit after the first attempt failed, and he did it so fast.

Naruto's gotten so strong...
He's... surpassed me.

Naruto ch 343

Kakashi: Naruto, You have indeed gotten stronger

To the point where we are equal, or maybe even stronger

----

Kakashi says Naruto surpassed him. Than later when talking about strength says they are equals, or just maybe Naruto is stronger. Ether way were not talking about a huge gap here.


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 30, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> It is just out of Character for Hashirama to use such a method,in my  opinion at  least!
> 
> And indeed I was going to say the same,imagine how old should have Tobirama be if Hashirama was Hokage till his 60 O_O
> 
> And as you said one doesn't need to ne 50-60 to be Grandfather,here in my country I have seen people being Grandfathera as their 30-40....


oh I completely agree. Tsunade had to create the technique in order to mimic Hashirama's innate ability. Where she had to intentionally use it, his may be more similar to a saiyan and he just automatically retains a youthful appearance. But that's just a theory to help explain their idea. I personally don't think he was older than he appeared


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## Kyu (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Prove Hashirama couldn't do this



His best destructive feat is destroying EMS Madara's PS.

A tree that didn't so much as budge from _*Yagai*_ isn't gonna fall to Chojo - a move which fails to harm the beast under PS' armor.  



Turrin said:


> Sasuke, Obito, Kakashi, and Sakura



...Didn't contribute a goddamn thing here[1], here[2], or here[].

So yes, I'd say reacting to her vaccum palms, overpowering said attack, and later on blitzing the fuck outta her is 'holding his own'.



ARGUS said:


> Proof?



Naruto w/ Full Kurama > Full Kurama by himself

Naruto w/ Toad Senjutsu + Full Kurama >> Full Kurama

Naruto w/ Six Paths Chakra + Toad Senjutsu + Full Kurama >>> Lone Kurama


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 30, 2016)

Danovic said:


> Hey, just wondering, what makes you think that naruto would not win without hagoromo's powers, i honestly think that after the fight with kaguya, naruto with just toad sage mode or even normal naruto would be able to defeat hashirama, and if not that then adult naruto can definetly take him without the powerups



 Naruto at that point would have Rikudou's Chakra, so even using Toad Sage Mode could allow him to defeat Hashirama though I don't agree with that.


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 30, 2016)

Kyu said:


> His best destructive feat is destroying EMS Madara's PS.
> 
> A tree that didn't so much as budge from _*Yagai*_ isn't gonna fall to Chojo - a move which fails to harm the beast under PS' armor.
> 
> ...


while I agree Naruto wins. Hashirama was the one to capture and distribute every Bijuu except Shukaku. And that includes Kurama.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 30, 2016)

Hashirama is really underrated this days! 

Well Kishi left too much unfinished job on his Manga! :/


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## Android (Oct 30, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> vant.
> And no clown.
> Hashirama > BSM naruto is a manga fact
> 
> ...


First of all , watch your fucking words , you can do that right ?
And Mr guy who doesn't comprehend the manga , TEEN Naruto was below Hashirama .
Adult Naruto can blitz the fuck outta of Hashirama , a chakra fist to his face + Shunshin = end of fucking story .
Adult Naruto can super charge a TBB and Hashirama and his SS of the face of the earth .
INB4 hurr durr he can't do that , hurr durr imma gonna that he was blitzing across the moon and appearing like a streak of light because hurr durr that was BSM and i don't care if he displayed superior feats because hurr durr it's just BSM .


ARGUS said:


> You mean how uou said that manga BSM naruto can beat him
> Despite them saying he hadnt surpassed him yet


Can you fucking read ??? 
A fucking 16 years old Naruto with half Kyuubi and toad sage mode was going to surpass Hashitrama .
Give him the other half of Kyuubi + years of mastery = a guy who will steamrole Hashitrama .
And then you have his adult feats with BSM with you like to ignore .


ARGUS said:


> wn.
> BSM was never in play. Naruto was.
> The consensus was not BSM surpassing Hashirama. It was naruto. But only over time
> 
> ...


All of this is baseless rubbish that i alredy adressed in my last post .
And no , i'm not going to adress the bullshit of VOTE Madara being stronger than adult BSM Naruto .
Nor will i adress the retarded argument of Naruto just sitting there wil Hashirama just LOL sends his attack back at him .
Nor will spoon feed your ass again on how is the Jinchuuriki of the Kyuubi is much , much
much
stronger than the Kyuubi alone
I wonder why no one thinks the Last Naruto is weaker than VotE Madara of Hashirama 
No one but you of course 


ARGUS said:


> @bold - not Gna bother with idiots who can't even comprehend flat out statements


Not sure what the fuck are you failing to read or understand 
Yes war arc BSM Naruto was already superior to Hashirama in few things like chakra quantity , speed , sensing , chakra control .
What's so hard to get i have no idea 


ARGUS said:


> And lol in battle abilities, can naruto even counter myojinmon plus SS? No he can't, because the thing pinned down V3 juubi.
> His precious half Kyuubi (soo stronk) gets pinned and then pasted by Chojo
> 
> Kishimoto literally spoon feeds his readers so that retards can understand what he is saying
> Yet as usual they ignore


Lmao , look at this , the same vague useless rubbish with no substance .
Full kyuubi is on par with Mokujin in physical strength , that is all .
Not in durability .
Not in firepower .
Because just half Kyuubi shits on Mokujin in terms of firepower .
Myojinmon would be sensed and dodged , or Naruto would just reform his avatr again if by some miracle it got hit .
SS would nuked with a flashy TBB , and Hashitrama would be fucked with a chakra fist to his ugly face .
Hashirama can not even counter Naruto's speed , and anything under SS is utter rubbish against adult Naruto and that SS would get fucked with a super charged TBB .
Even before hurr durr he can't charge a TBB big enuff , hurr durr his TBB would be caught and LMAO sent back at him .
Hurr durr the Last Narto can't blitz Hashirama.


ARGUS said:


> ement wAs refuted
> The whole Jin>bijuu argument was only said before because bijuu were mindless
> 
> But that was retconned as shown that bijuu are stable, have a conscience and have even shown battle intellect
> ...


Nothing was lol retconned , it's just your bad comprehension of the manga .
Key word , perfect Jinchuuriki . PERFECT JINCHUURIKI . *PERFECT* Jinchuuriki .
Having a lol host =/= perfect Jinchuuriki , unless the beast and the host are actually working together like a perfect team .
A regular Jinchuuriki can't even bring the power of the Bijuu itself , let alone more 
1- BM Naruto was shown to be much stronger than the Kyuubi alone , and no , i'm not gonna waste my time explaining this again because it's even retarded to think otherwise .
2- we never saw the Hatchibi fight w/o a Jinchuuriki , and the only thing we know was that he failed to do shit to the Raikage .
3- Obito's Jinchuuriki were Edo's , and they were controlled .
When a Jinchuuriki is working with his Bijuu they become stronger .
By this dumb ass logic i can say that RSM avatar is = half kyuubi because it's just kyuubi .
Any boost the Jinchuuriki has , it's Bijuu gets as well .


ARGUS said:


> Yet that's all what's required
> Unless you're willing to assert that narutos fanfic SM strength surpasses that of a TBB



How many time do i have to expailn this .
Naruto isn't the only one who gets the senjutsu boost , Kurama gets that boost as well .
Kurama in the Last blow Toneri's golem to the space with a casual TBB .
Can you show me vote Kurama's TBB doing something close ?
Oh wait , you can't 
You just like to ignore or downplay feats that doesn't suit your stance .


ARGUS said:


> Even manga BM naruto has that feat
> Irrelevant point


No , he doesn't , don't know where did you get this from .
And no , speed can never be irrelevant , the hell are you talking about ?


ARGUS said:


> A mini shinju since it's nowhere near what the dsize of the manga one



Irrelevant , because i wasn't making any comparison between the two things .
Manga Naruto's Odama Rasengan <<<<<< Adult Naruto's odama Rasengan , as feat shows .
But of course , i expect you , to tapdance around that too .


ARGUS said:


> Already addressed, and is either baseless or utter rubbish


Concession accepted then .


ARGUS said:


> You mean the same manga you choose to ignore
> The same manga that said it flat out that BSM naruto is below him


- Manga says 16 y/o Naruto can surpass Hashirama with just SM and half Kyuubi .
- He says all versions of BSM are below Hashirama .
- Has the nerve to talk about what the manga says .
Yeah , you're hopeless .


ARGUS said:


> The same manga which showed SS take out a far superior entity


No , adult BSM would rape VOTE Madara .
VotE Madara has inferior firepower and weaker defense .
And Kyuubi doesn't add any defensive abilities to Madara , so his defense is the same which is PS .
Physica strength goes to Adult Naruto thanks to senjutsu . And ISO Susanoo's physical strength is still the same as Kyuubi . and that's inferior to Full kyuubi + Senjutsu .
So yeah , gtfo with this nonsense of yours .


ARGUS said:


> Yeah hop off that naruto dick for once
> Adult BSM naruto doesn't do shit,
> Myojinmon pins him down, then Chojo. Repeatedly turns him into a smear on the ground
> 
> Any TBB just gets sent back to his face. Especially when Jukai Kotan was suggested to do that,



adult Naruto would open him a new asshole , utterly shitstomp him like the bug he is .
Retard Juubito would shit on Hashirama , yet you think he stands a chance against adult Naruto 
So yeah , adult Naruto stomps his ass .
As feats shows
As portrayal shows
As general consensus shows
Stay in your own small fantasy


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## Android (Oct 30, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> And yes, hobi can tank BSM TBB if it tanked full kyuubis TBB point blank with no significant damages


   
I didn't see this one .
The TBB that literally , literally sent the otsutsuki's golem to the outer space would be tanked , and with no damage ??? 
Yeah , we're done here , just stop please before you embarrasse yourself even more .


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

Kyu said:


> His best destructive feat is destroying EMS Madara's PS.
> 
> A tree that didn't so much as budge from _*Yagai*_ isn't gonna fall to Chojo - a move which fails to harm the beast under PS' armor.


You do realizes that Shin Suusenju did that to Madara's Kyuubi-Susano'o mecha while also having it's attack power greatly reduced by the shit ton of Susano'o-Sword TBB that intercepted many of it's attacks, right?

Yagai didn't even hit the tree, it hit Madara, and Madara simply crashed into the tree after the attack was complete'd, so I don't see any relevance to that comparison.



> .Didn't contribute a goddamn thing here[1], here[2], or here[].
> 
> So yes, I'd say reacting to her vaccum palms, overpowering said attack, and later on blitzing the fuck outta her is 'holding his own'.


Then I guess Sakura reacting to Kaguya's attacks, landing her punch and knocking Kaguya's block off, is also holding her own. Or Kakashi was also holding his own when he blocked her attack with Kamui Shuriken and landed his Black Rarikiri. 

If dealing with one or two of Kaguya's attacks and landing some attacks on Kaguya, counts as one holding their own I have no doubt VOTE Madara and Hashirama, would have been able to do the same if they were part of that battle.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 30, 2016)

People who claim Naruto VoTE II vs Hashirama is a harsh fight aren't serious, Kishi made it clear that people of this level would stomp Hashirma, in fact Hashiram can't even react to a Shunshin + FRS assault from Naruto, Senjutsu or not let alone his 9 Super Bijuu Rasen Shuriken. 

And well, since Tobirama said BSM Naruto has the potential to surpass Hashirama then yeah,with time, far better Senjutsu mastery, much larger chakra pool and overall growth he would be stronger than him even without Hagoromo's boost.

Same goes for Sasuke, if Orochimaru said he has the potential to surpass Madara even without Rikudou boost then it's then it must be the case because his Rinnegan version is far stronger.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> What Naruto are we talking about here. Naruto at VOTEII vs Hashirama would be a good fight, I do think Naruto would win, but it would likely be with extreme difficulty. Adult-Naruto is hard to rate right now as it's unclear how much he improved or how much he got rusty.


How at all is that what you consider a good fight? 
Naruto blitzes and one-shots his ass get real…


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## LightningForce (Oct 30, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> And well, since Tobirama said BSM Naruto has the potential to surpass Hashirama then yeah,with time, far better Senjutsu mastery, much larger chakra pool and overall growth he would be stronger than him even without Hagoromo's boost.
> 
> Same goes for Sasuke, if Orochimaru said he has the potential to surpass Madara even without Rikudou boost then it's then it must be the case because his Rinnegan version is far stronger.



Much larger chakra pool? Naruto + 100% Kurama doesn't have as much chakra than Hashirama, who fought Madara + 100 % Kurama.

Far better senjutsu mastery? There's nothing that indicates Naruto has had far better senjutsu mastery than Hashirama. Both can go into SM instantaneously. In addition, have you seen the size of Hashirama's SM Buddha? The size ratio of  to  (using the latter as a baseline for comparison) is staggering. I don't see anyone below Naruto's level of senjutsu mastery being able to achieve that much dramatic amplification.

Overall growth? One lived in the Warring States era, where literally children as young as seven were sent off to the battleground. Where the general life expectancy was around 30 years. Another lived in times of moderate peace. Someone like Hashirama who lived in that era should have far more overall growth than Naruto who spent most of his days chillin' chillin'. And as Hokage, Naruto got rusty while Hashirama was able to hold off Madara's siege.

I think people are overrating the hell outta Naruto versus Hashirama. I mean, Hashirama's power was considered a freaking *fairy tail*. I do believe Naruto is overall superior than Hashirama, but mainly because he still has Six Paths chakra from Hagoromo and from being a pseudo-Ten Tails host. Hashirama would be a beast too if he received Naruto's free power-up.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

I can Kinda of understand people thinking that VOTEII-Naruto & VOTEII-Sasuke are well above VOTE-Hashirama & VOTE-Madara, depending on how one values Hagaromo's power up. I don't agree with the sentiment personally, but the power-levels at that point were very inconsistent and nonsensical anyway, so whatever...

But the idea that BM/BSM-Naruto or EMS/ESMCS-Sasuke were on par with or > then VOTE-Hashirama and VOTE-Madara respectively, makes literally zero sense.

BM-Naruto is combination of Naruto's own powers + 50% Kurama. 

Hashirama's Mokujin by itself was stated to be equal to 100% Kurama, that means Base-Hashirama's Mokujin would rape BM Naruto. Than Hashiram other Mokuton allowed him to take on P-Susano'o at the same time, P-Susano'o was also compared to 100% Kurama in power, so Base-Hashirama is like x4 the strength of BM-Naruto bare minimum.

Then yeah Naruto has his Toad-SM on top of this when he gets BSM, but his Toad-SM is just balancing his own chakra, but then Hashirama has his SM on-top of the above too. So at best the gap remains Hashirama being x4 more powerful than him, at worse since Hashirama's SM showed far greater output than Naruto's Toad-SM ever did, the gap widens even more.

Same thing with Sasuke.

EMS-Sasuke P-Susano'o is suppose to be equal to Naruto's 50% Kurama Aura. That automatically means that Madara's P-Susano'o which is equal to 100% Kurama is twice as strong as it; Madara then also has 100% Kurama itself. So he too should be x4 the strength of EMS-Sasuke.

Then sure Sasuke gets Juugo's CS that he adds to his Susano'o, but that doesn't even remotely compare with the boost that Madara gains by fusing Kurama w/ his Susano'o. So Madara is certainly even more than x4 the strength of EMS/EMSCS-Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Oct 30, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Much larger chakra pool? Naruto + 100% Kurama doesn't have as much chakra than Hashirama, who fought Madara + 100 % Kurama.


No , he doesn't , Hashirama compared his chakra to the chakra that Naruto shared with the SA .
In addition to that , Kurama's chakra was needed to be sealed last in the GM to avoid overloading . The rest of the Bijuu chakra was needed to balance Kurama's own .


LightningForce said:


> Far better senjutsu mastery? There's nothing that indicates Naruto has had far better senjutsu mastery than Hashirama. Both can go into SM instantaneously


Can Hashirama's clone enter SM ? does Hashirama's sage mode grant him continent wide sensing ? what does Hashirama's sage mode has over Naruto's ? 


LightningForce said:


> Overall growth? One lived in the Warring States era, where literally children as young as seven were sent off to the battleground. Where the general life expectancy was around 30 years. Another lived in times of moderate peace. Someone like Hashirama who lived in that era should have far more overall growth than Naruto who spent most of his days chillin' chillin'. And as Hokage, Naruto got rusty while Hashirama was able to hold off Madara's siege.


A freaking 16 years old Naruto with SM and half Kyuubi was being compared to Hashirama and was superior to him in some things . Still behind , but not too far .
Can someone tell me how stronk Hashirama was at age 16 ?


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## Arles Celes (Oct 30, 2016)

Hashi and Naruto were in the same ballpark/tier until Naruto got RSM and completely surpassed Hashi.



Turrin said:


> I can Kinda of understand people thinking that VOTEII-Naruto & VOTEII-Sasuke are well above VOTE-Hashirama & VOTE-Madara, depending on how one values Hagaromo's power up. I don't agree with the sentiment personally, but the power-levels at that point were very inconsistent and nonsensical anyway, so whatever...
> 
> But the idea that BM/BSM-Naruto or EMS/ESMCS-Sasuke were on par with or > then VOTE-Hashirama and VOTE-Madara respectively, makes literally zero sense.
> 
> ...



But if that was true then Madara with Shinju, 2 Rinnegan eyes, Mokuton and Rinnesharingan should be leagues beyond RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.

Hell, even his one eyed Juubi version should have trashed RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.

While Naruto and Sasuke seemed to be having an advantage...


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## Android (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> What Naruto are we talking about here. Naruto at VOTEII vs Hashirama would be a good fight, I do think Naruto would win, but it would likely be with extreme difficulty


What the fuck ?


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> What the fuck ?


Compelling argument


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I can Kinda of understand people thinking that VOTEII-Naruto & VOTEII-Sasuke are well above VOTE-Hashirama & VOTE-Madara, depending on how one values Hagaromo's power up. I don't agree with the sentiment personally, but the power-levels at that point were very inconsistent and nonsensical anyway, so whatever...
> 
> But the idea that BM/BSM-Naruto or EMS/ESMCS-Sasuke were on par with or > then VOTE-Hashirama and VOTE-Madara respectively, makes literally zero sense.
> 
> ...


The debate is for Adult BSM Naruto who not only has 100% Kurama and years of additional experience, but his own Chakra that is now Rikudo enhanced as well.
Teen BSM Naruto gets dropped by Hashi.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The debate is for Adult BSM Naruto who not only has 100% Kurama and years of additional experience, but his own Chakra that is now Rikudo enhanced as well.
> Teen BSM Naruto gets dropped by Hashi.


I've literally been discussing this issue for a day now, and I assure you there are people saying Teen BSM is >= Hashirama


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I've literally been discussing this issue for a day now, and I assure you there are people saying Teen BSM is >= Hashirama


I agree with you there, as that shouldn't at all be debatable. SS is far too much for him. 

However Naruto as an Adult is a different story.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I agree with you there, as that shouldn't at all be debatable. SS is far too much for him.
> 
> However Naruto as an Adult is a different story.


Naruto as an Adult I would have assumed is > Hashirama, but then Kishimoto released Gaiden.....


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Naruto as an Adult I would have assumed is > Hashirama, but then Kishimoto released Gaiden.....


Yeahhh, I try to disregard that and use it as a source of comedic relief, considering the feats he was managing in The Last.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LightningForce (Oct 30, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No , he doesn't , Hashirama compared his chakra to the chakra that Naruto shared with the SA .
> In addition to that , Kurama's chakra was needed to be sealed last in the GM to avoid overloading . The rest of the Bijuu chakra was needed to balance Kurama's own .



You're also right, but the comparison was clear. Here's the page:



Hashirama compared his own chakra to Naruto's + 100% Kurama's chakra (since both Minato and Naruto were fist-bumpting). Also note how in the Viz translation, he says *almost*.



> Can Hashirama's clone enter SM ? does Hashirama's sage mode grant him continent wide sensing ? what does Hashirama's sage mode has over Naruto's ?



Hashirama's SM has nothing over Naruto's. I'm just saying that there's no indication at all that Hashirama's mastery was inferior to Naruto's. And assuming natural energy sensing is a general characteristic among all SM's, then Hashirama's sensing should also be capable of extending that far.



> A freaking 16 years old Naruto with SM and half Kyuubi was being compared to Hashirama and was superior to him in some things . Still behind , but not too far .
> Can someone tell me how stronk Hashirama was at age 16 ?



Can you tell me how much Naruto trained over his young adult years since VOTE II? I really doubt it pushed Naruto far more than what Hashirama had to deal with over his lifetime. Experience is cumulative, and if it the world was as peaceful as we were led to believe, then there's really no one to challenge Naruto except Sasuke, whom wasn't around to do so. I mean, look at the Gaiden. BSM Naruto failed to catch an MS-wielding kid and got trolled by Shin.


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yeahhh, I try to disregard that and use it as a source of comedic relief, considering the feats he was managing in The Last.


I don't fully trust the movies, because like the Anime, they tend to take liberties with the overblowing the feats. Also the Gaiden justified it by Naruto getting rusty and seemingly declining in strength, so we don't really know at what point Naruto was in his "Prime" or if he has even reached that yet. That's why i'm waiting till we get more from Boruto-Manga, before I rate Adult-Naruto and Adult-Sasuke.

With that said I will agree he has greater powers than Hashirama.  As S06P-SM > Hashi's SM, and unlike at VOTEII, where I feel it's debatable since Naruto only had 50% Kurama, he has 100% Kurama here.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## LightningForce (Oct 30, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yeahhh, I try to disregard that and use it as a source of comedic relief, considering the feats he was managing in The Last.



You would really believe a movie made by SP that has a shit ton of inconsistencies more than the pen and paper of the author himself?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Android (Oct 30, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> You would really believe a movie made by SP that has a shit ton of inconsistencies more than the pen and paper of the author himself?


The author said that the movie is canon to the story , he even draw that one shot for the movie and asked his fans to finish reading the manga first , before watching the movie .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Naruto as an Adult I would have assumed is > Hashirama, but then Kishimoto released Gaiden.....



Nuff said .
[/IMG]


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## Android (Oct 30, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> You're also right, but the comparison was clear. Here's the page:
> 
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> Hashirama compared his own chakra to Naruto's + 100% Kurama's chakra (since both Minato and Naruto were fist-bumpting). Also note how in the Viz translation, he says *almost*.


Ahh no , he was comparing his chakra to the chakra shared with the SA , he doesn't know how much chakra BM got anyway .
I mean , Naruto run out of chakra in that arc , and he had to take chakra from Minato , so there is nooooooo way that he was at full reserve .


LightningForce said:


> Hashirama's SM has nothing over Naruto's. I'm just saying that there's no indication at all that Hashirama's mastery was inferior to Naruto's. And assuming natural energy sensing is a general characteristic among all SM's, then Hashirama's sensing should also be capable of extending that far.


Ah no , it doesn't , Hashirama has no upstanding sensing feats , at all , and he was inferior to Tobirama in terms of sensing . Naruto's SM grants him , on top of speed , chakra , stamina , kawazu kumite , wider danger sensing , frog kata taijutsu .... etc etc 


LightningForce said:


> Can you tell me how much Naruto trained over his young adult years since VOTE II? I really doubt it pushed Naruto far more than what Hashirama had to deal with over his lifetime. Experience is cumulative, and if it the world was as peaceful as we were led to believe, then there's really no one to challenge Naruto except Sasuke, whom wasn't around to do so. I mean, look at the Gaiden. BSM Naruto failed to catch an MS-wielding kid and got trolled by Shin.


 
Not sure if you're serious .
And lol@Turrin , are you serious too ?  
First of all the mode he used in Gaiden is RSM , not BSM , know what BSM is please .
Manga Naruto's Odama rasngan doesn't do jack to pain's summons 
Adult Naruto's rasengan obliterating the Shinju 
Adult Naruto and Sasuke moving at such speed that the land under their feet gets burned and destroyed .
Adult Sasuke ragdolling fused Momoshiki with a lion barrage .
Adult Naruto destroying the surface of the moon with his speed .
Adult Naruto having superior firepower to Momoshiki's TBB .

Adult Naruto blocking Toneri's sword with a chakra fist that obliterated the surface of the moon with it's shockwave .

Somehow people think adult Naruto and Sasuke are weaker .
They don't even know what RSM is , and what BSM is .
OMG

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The All Unknowing (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I can Kinda of understand people thinking that VOTEII-Naruto & VOTEII-Sasuke are well above VOTE-Hashirama & VOTE-Madara, depending on how one values Hagaromo's power up. I don't agree with the sentiment personally, but *the power-levels at that point were very inconsistent and nonsensical anyway*, so whatever...
> 
> But the idea that BM/BSM-Naruto or EMS/ESMCS-Sasuke were on par with or > then VOTE-Hashirama and VOTE-Madara respectively, makes literally zero sense.
> 
> ...


While I disagree on the overall battle. I agree completely with that statement. "Strength" got juggled so much in the war, but that basically makes the Battledome so fun


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 30, 2016)

I'm not sure why Gaiden is relevant in this discussion when it's rather clear that Kishimoto selected a different artistic approach.


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 30, 2016)

RSM Naruto>SM Hashirama>Any other version of Naruto.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## LightningForce (Oct 30, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The author said that the movie is canon to the story , he even draw that one shot for the movie and asked his fans to finish reading the manga first , before watching the movie .



I'm not denying that the movie is canon to the story. Important plot elements such as Toneri's plan, the Tenseigan, Naruto & Hinata's love story, that's all fine and dandy with me. But SP made too many obvious inconsistent character-ability fuck-ups for me to really take what they do seriously.

Naruto trying to do a shadow clone when he didn't learn about it until after reading one of Hashirama's forbidden scrolls.

Hinata not being able to walk on the walls of the building during the village rescue scene and having to hang on to her handmade scarf.

Naruto not being able to get snapped out of genjutsu despite being a perfect host.

Sasuke's missing Rinnegan during a few scenes.

Guy not being able to detect Sasuke despite Kakashi being able to.

Naruto and Toneri fighting on the moon with no breathable atmosphere.

... To list a few. So even though the Last happened, I pay more attention to the Gaiden and Boruto the Movie because those are better indications of where adult Naruto really stands.



cctr9 said:


> Ahh no , he was comparing his chakra to the chakra shared with the SA , he doesn't know how much chakra BM got anyway .
> I mean , Naruto run out of chakra in that arc , and he had to take chakra from Minato , so there is nooooooo way that he was at full reserve .



That panel is pretty straightforward, he's comparing the chakra output to Naruto's + 100% Kurama's chakra. At first, he thought it was Naruto's chakra that he was sharing only. But then he realizes that it has Nine Tails chakra mixed in, which is why he was able to share out so much. BM is only Naruto's + 50 % Kurama's chakra. The fist bumping scene indicates that Kurama was able to knead more chakra using the help of his other half, so at that point it could be anywhere ranging from 50-100%. Nevertheless, it still wasn't enough for Hashirama to believe that it was as much as his own reserves, and as an Edo too.



> Ah no , it doesn't , Hashirama has no upstanding sensing feats , at all , and he was inferior to Tobirama in terms of sensing . Naruto's SM grants him , on top of speed , chakra , stamina , kawazu kumite , wider danger sensing , frog kata taijutsu .... etc etc



How is SM Hashirama inferior to Tobirama in sensing ability? Chakra and nature sensing has been recognized as a universal senjutsu ability.

Frog Kata is specific to toad sages. I'm still not seeing how Hashirama's range would be less than Naruto's range.



> Not sure if you're serious .
> And lol@Turrin , are you serious too ?
> First of all the mode he used in Gaiden is RSM , not BSM , know what BSM is please .
> Manga Naruto's Odama rasngan doesn't do jack to pain's summons
> ...



I prefer to refer RSM as the mode that Naruto used in conjunction with TSB's, levitation, and access to all tailed beast powers. Naruto's powers as an adult fit BM/BSM the most. But if you want to be technical, then fine Naruto was using RSM as an adult, without the godly powers.

Again, I'm not saying Hashirama beats Naruto. If you go back to my original point, I was saying that Hashirama's growth, or I should say growth rate, should overall be greater than Naruto's, who lived in a more peaceful era. Naruto slacked while Hashirama continued to grow stronger. Naruto's powers are at least one tier above because of his Six Paths powers. In terms of DC and capability, I don't think EoS Naruto is significantly superior to his teen RSM self, who was already taking on and handling well against Kaguya.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Oct 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Considering he was using the present tense, yes I do
> 
> 
> Are you saying VOTE-Hashirama couldn't take these people?
> ...



I'm actually not gonna waste the time to seriously reply to this. If you really think Hashirama is close to Riduko Naruto then you are simply in another world all together; and I won't be wasting the time trying to convince you otherwise.  The massive gap between them is the general consensus among every single debating forum, and among all the competent and experienced debaters. It's like someone trying to make a compelling argument for Sakura's superiority to Naruto and Sasuke during the War. Just isn't worth the time to debate.


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## Danovic (Oct 31, 2016)

cctr9 dude teen naruto after kaguya fight with SO6P power was above hashirama, he was probably above Hashirama before even getting to Kaguya


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## Danovic (Oct 31, 2016)

Agreed


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## Danovic (Oct 31, 2016)

I mean the series is called Naruto for a reason, he is supposed to be and currently is the greatest shinobi of all time alongside sasuke ( at least for now, maybe in the future stronger shinobi will come but i dont think so) anyways back to my point Naruto stomps Hashirama, very easy fight in fact, Hashirama has too many fanboys who do not look at facts and clear logic but only as to who they prefer


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 31, 2016)

Danovic said:


> I mean the series is called Naruto for a reason, he is supposed to be and currently is the greatest shinobi of all time alongside sasuke ( at least for now, maybe in the future stronger shinobi will come but i dont think so) anyways back to my point Naruto stomps Hashirama, very easy fight in fact, Hashirama has too many fanboys who do not look at facts and clear logic but only as to who they prefer


RSM Naruto is absolutely above Hashirama.We all agreed that with the Rikudou Boost he is above Hashirama,although we are arguing that BSM Naruto is not above Hashirama! So please don't go with the offensive "Hashirama fanboys" and such...

Even I said that Naruto is the Main Character and is Supposed to and Did surpass Hashirama one way or another,especially thanks to Hagoromo! So restrain yourself from offending others who doesn't share your opinion mate! 

And Naruto nor Sasuke are stronger than Hagoromo or Kaguya ,especially one on one!


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## Android (Oct 31, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> I'm not denying that the movie is canon to the story. Important plot elements such as Toneri's plan, the Tenseigan, Naruto & Hinata's love story, that's all fine and dandy with me. But SP made too many obvious inconsistent character-ability fuck-ups for me to really take what they do seriously.



Implying the manga itself isn't full of nonsense and inconsistent BS .
Do you want me to give you a list of Kishimoto's fuck ups in the manga , there's so many things i can think of 
Did this stop us from taking the manga's canonship ? No .


LightningForce said:


> Naruto trying to do a shadow clone when he didn't learn about it until after reading one of Hashirama's forbidden scrolls.


Eh , i'll give you this one .
But there was even a bigger screw up in the manga by Kishi .
Yes, i'm talking about the Yin Kurama / Black Zetsu / GM 
Or Madara' many retarded asspulls .


LightningForce said:


> Hinata not being able to walk on the walls of the building during the village rescue scene and having to hang on to her handmade scarf.


Errrr , are you sure you watched the movie ? 
She said she was feeling numb and couldn't move her body because of Toneri's pupet reincarnation jutsu that he put inside her . Naruto himself got one shotted by one of those green spheres .


LightningForce said:


> Naruto not being able to get snapped out of genjutsu despite being a perfect host.


Wasn't Yagura put in Genjutsu despite being a perfect host ? 
We don't even know how Toneri's genjutsu works , in the novel it was stated to be a mix of dreams and illusion or something like that . But like i said , there are things way more retarded in the manga itself .


LightningForce said:


> Guy not being able to detect Sasuke despite Kakashi being able to.


I'm not sure what you mean here , but you're focusing too much on small details .


LightningForce said:


> Naruto and Toneri fighting on the moon with no breathable atmosphere.


Tho movie was supposed to happen on the narutoverse moon , Kishi even went on drawing too many posters for the movie with a big ass moon in it , meaning he does approve the idea , and he's the one who created Toneri's character and the Otsutsuki clan living on the moon in the first place . Something that defies logic or nature laws in your eyes , doesn't necessarly have to be like that in a freaking fictional manga lol .


LightningForce said:


> ... To list a few. So even though the Last happened, I pay more attention to the Gaiden and Boruto the Movie because those are better indications of where adult Naruto really stands.


To the author , the Last isn't any less legit or canon than those things , sorry mate but the author has spoken , and it's his story , if he says something is canon , then you must take it as canon , if he says something is not , then it's not , REGARDLESS of what his fans would consider canon or not . Kishi also said many times that he review the movie script many times until it fits his standards , and he also adviced his fans to finish reading the manga first before watching the Last .
Geez , i wonder why ? 
But let's put that aside , and look at Boruto the movie , Naruto and Sasuke's feats in that movie (mind you , the movie happened only 2-3 months after Gaiden ) , their performance takes a dump on any thing they showed in Gaiden .
No to mention that what you are saying makes no sense .
The Last happened 1.5 year after the war arc . Gaiden happened more than 12 years after that ! so how do you dismiss Naruto's feats in the last for something that happened 12 years after ?????!!!!!!


LightningForce said:


> That panel is pretty straightforward, he's comparing the chakra output to Naruto's + 100% Kurama's chakra. At first, he thought it was Naruto's chakra that he was sharing only. But then he realizes that it has Nine Tails chakra mixed in, which is why he was able to share out so much. BM is only Naruto's + 50 % Kurama's chakra. The fist bumping scene indicates that Kurama was able to knead more chakra using the help of his other half, so at that point it could be anywhere ranging from 50-100%. Nevertheless, it still wasn't enough for Hashirama to believe that it was as much as his own reserves, and as an Edo too.


Like i told you before , Naruto was drained more than 3 times in that chapter , and that happened after he used so many chakra , the fight against Obito , the fight against both Obito and Madara , then the Juubi , then he shared his chakra with more than 40000 shinobi or something , all that chakra was used up , he had to share it again with the SA , so no , no way in hell that was the chakra of a full Kyuubi , not even close , and no , they don't knead chakra when they bump fist , they share chakra . Full Kurama chakra >= the rest of the Bijuu more or less , Hashirama's chakra reserves has no comparable hype or statement . And even in terms of potency , Kurama chakra can be sensed from miles even by non sensor types .


LightningForce said:


> How is SM Hashirama inferior to Tobirama in sensing ability? Chakra and nature sensing has been recognized as a universal senjutsu ability.


I'm not exactly sure which chapter , but for more informations on this topic you can check Hussain .


LightningForce said:


> Frog Kata is specific to toad sages. I'm still not seeing how Hashirama's range would be less than Naruto's range.


Lack of feats ? you do know that not all sage modes share the same properties right ? the augmentations Naruto gets from his sage mode is more than Hashirama's , in addition to that , Naruto's clones can enter sage mode , can't remember Hashirama's clones doing something like that .


LightningForce said:


> I prefer to refer RSM as the mode that Naruto used in conjunction with TSB's, levitation, and access to all tailed beast powers. Naruto's powers as an adult fit BM/BSM the most. But if you want to be technical, then fine Naruto was using RSM as an adult, without the godly powers.


Ah no , not how it works , the TSB were lost , and Naruto himself hasn't shown the ability to regenerate them . In addition to that adult Sasuke was stated to be = Naruto , and Sasuke himself admitted inferiority in the movie , BSM does not put Naruto in the same league with Rinnegan Sasuke , no , not when it takes a much stronger version than BSM , much , much stronger version to fight against Rinnegan Sasuke , the six paths sage mode in the counterpart of Sasuke's Rinnegan , pretty sure the manga made that clear .
Lol , BSM Naruto would get rekt by Rinnegan Sasuke , and would've gotten rekt against fused Momoshiki , but we know that isn't the case since he's using a much stronger transformation which is the RSM .


LightningForce said:


> Again, I'm not saying Hashirama beats Naruto. If you go back to my original point, I was saying that Hashirama's growth, or I should say growth rate, should overall be greater than Naruto's, who lived in a more peaceful era. Naruto slacked while Hashirama continued to grow stronger. Naruto's powers are at least one tier above because of his Six Paths powers. In terms of DC and capability, I don't think EoS Naruto is significantly superior to his teen RSM self, who was already taking on and handling well against Kaguya.


What are you talking about ? rate growth ? Hashirama already hit his prime , while Naruto surpassed him at the age of 16 .
RSM didn't just make Naruto stronger than Hashirama , he left Hashirama in the dust , making his a fodder in comparison , what Gaiden Naruto lacked was battle sense , not row power , not speed , and not DC , in the second encounter with Shin in Gaiden , he stomped a whole army of Shin with basic clones lol , so no , it wasn't a power issue .
Again , adult Naruto isn't just Gaiden Naruto , and adult Sasuke isn't just Gaiden Sasuke .
Boruto the movie - happened only 2 months after Gaiden - completely erased any doubts , eithe Naruto or Sasuke with their feats from the Boruto movie would stomp VotE Madara or VotE Hashirama .

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (Oct 31, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> RSM Naruto is absolutely above Hashirama.We all agreed that with the Rikudou Boost he is above Hashirama,although we are arguing that BSM Naruto is not above Hashirama! So please don't go with the offensive "Hashirama fanboys" and such...



RSM didn't just put Naruto above Hashirama , he made Hashirama a freaking fodder compared to him 
Hashirama isn't on the level of the characters that Naruto faced with RSM , not even close , so why the hell would Naruto need RSM to fight Hashirama ? adult BSM is more than enuff .
People seem to fail at grasping how big is the gap between RSM Naruto and SM Hashirama .


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> especially thanks to Hagoromo!


Err , no , he was more than capable of surpassing him w/o Hagoromo . Naruto surpassed characters far stronger than Hashirama with RSM , so it's not just Hashirama .
And let's not pretend that Hashirama wasn't gifted with his powers only thanks to a dead guy chakra .


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## Danovic (Oct 31, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> RSM Naruto is absolutely above Hashirama.We all agreed that with the Rikudou Boost he is above Hashirama,although we are arguing that BSM Naruto is not above Hashirama! So please don't go with the offensive "Hashirama fanboys" and such...
> 
> Even I said that Naruto is the Main Character and is Supposed to and Did surpass Hashirama one way or another,especially thanks to Hagoromo! So restrain yourself from offending others who doesn't share your opinion mate!
> 
> And Naruto nor Sasuke are stronger than Hagoromo or Kaguya ,especially one on one!



Sorry if i offended you i was not meaning to do so, but it does really frustrate when i go online and see his fanboys but apologies for using the term in the wrong way, anyways to your other point, Hagoromo and Kaguya can not really be considered shinobi as they are considered to be actual gods, please correct me if i am wrong, this is why i chose to put naruto and sasuke as the greatest.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 31, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> RSM didn't just put Naruto above Hashirama , he made Hashirama a freaking fodder compared to him
> Hashirama isn't on the level of the characters that Naruto faced with RSM , not even close , so why the hell would Naruto need RSM to fight Hashirama ? adult BSM is more than enuff .
> People seem to fail at grasping how big is the gap between RSM Naruto and SM Hashirama .
> 
> ...


I never said or meant that RSM Naruto is slightly above Hashirama,the term I used "Absolutely above" suggests a considerable gap and that I can't argue....

I never said Hashirama wasn't benefiting from Ashura,all I said is that Naruto is benefiting from that too! 

Adult BSM Naruto I view as Equal or may be slightly Superior to Hashirama,but of course without counting Rikudou Chakra...and such,if we add that too,then the gaps is cosmic....but without it I don't see Naruto as Superior to Hashirama or not at least so drastically!


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 31, 2016)

Danovic said:


> Sorry if i offended you i was not meaning to do so, but it does really frustrate when i go online and see his fanboys but apologies for using the term in the wrong way, anyways to your other point, Hagoromo and Kaguya can not really be considered shinobi as they are considered to be actual gods, please correct me if i am wrong, this is why i chose to put naruto and sasuke as the greatest.


No offense taken!

Well.technically you are right about Hagoromo and Kaguya! But may be Ashura with all of Hagoromo Powers would be above Sasuke and Naruto individually!?


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## theRonin (Oct 31, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> But may be Ashura with all of Hagoromo Powers would be above Sasuke and Naruto individually!?


If he had all of Hago chakra, then wouldn't that mean he'd get a Rinnegan.?


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 31, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> If he had all of Hago chakra, then wouldn't that mean he'd get a Rinnegan.?


Hmm don't know,but may be not because he didn't inherit the Visual Prowess of Hagoromo,but just his Body and Physical stuff and shit,so All.of Hagoromo Chakra or stuff could just boost his Physical Stats and such...but Hagoromo himself said that he before he gave everything to Ashura thus now he would try by giving one half to Naruto and one half to Sasuke!


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## theRonin (Oct 31, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Hmm don't know,but may be not because he didn't inherit the Visual Prowess of Hagoromo,but just his Body and Physical stuff and shit,so All.of Hagoromo Chakra or stuff could just boost his Physical Stats and such...but Hagoromo himself said that he before he gave everything to Ashura thus now he would try by giving one half to Naruto and one half to Sasuke!


Link removed

It doesn't mean everything but it could also mean everything, so I see where you're coming from.


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## Android (Oct 31, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I never said Hashirama wasn't benefiting from Ashura,all I said is that Naruto is benefiting from that too!


Naruto has Ashura's chakra flowing in his body , and that's about it , Hashirama got the Wood KKG , a huge chara pull , crazy healing powers , and cells that can heal even cancer . Who knows what else he got ? 


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Adult BSM Naruto I view as Equal or may be slightly Superior to Hashirama,but of course without counting Rikudou Chakra...and such,if we add that too,then the gaps is cosmic....but without it I don't see Naruto as Superior to Hashirama or not at least so drastically!


This is where we disagree , you know i like and respect you , but no , by feats , adult BSM Naruto is above Hashirama .


Ichibat said:


> If he had all of Hago chakra, then wouldn't that mean he'd get a Rinnegan.?


No Sharingan  
Ashura reincarnations gets the body power , not the eye power


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## theRonin (Oct 31, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No Sharingan
> Ashura reincarnations gets the body power , not the eye power


So, Ashura and his reincarnations getting Yin no chikara means, RSM.
Indra and his reincarnations getting Yang no chikara means, Rinnegan, eh?

Solves the problem, if it were the case.


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## Android (Oct 31, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> So, Ashura and his reincarnations getting Yin no chikara means, RSM.
> Indra and his reincarnations getting Yang no chikara means, Rinnegan, eh?


They are called In = Yin , Yo = Yang , in Romaji .
While Inton = Yin release . Like in Madara's jutsu : Senpo : Inton Raiha = Sage art : Yin style : lightning storm .
Yoton = Yang release . (yes Yang release and Lava release share the same name) .
Like in Naruto and Sasuke's moon and sun seals . Rikudo no Yo no Chikara = six paths power of light . Rikudo no In no Chikara = six paths power of shadow .
Where : Yo = Yang = light . In = Yin = shadow .
OT : the powers that Indra and Ashura reincarnations - that we know - had was the Rinnegan and Mangekyo Sharingan (Sasuke and Madara) , and the senjutsu and six paths senjutsu (Hahirama and Naruto) .
The body power is the counterpart of the eye power . Indra's reincarnations got the eye power (Sharingan , Rinnegan) , while Ashura's reincarnations got the body power (senjutsu , six paths senjutsu) .

Reactions: Informative 1


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## solid-soul (Oct 31, 2016)

adult naruto, gram-pa naruto, rsm naruto, bsm naruto means nothing to god


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## Android (Oct 31, 2016)

^^
< A god .
< Admits inferiority to a retard Juubito .
< Gets his ass surpassed by a child .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Naruto has Ashura's chakra flowing in his body , and that's about it , Hashirama got the Wood KKG , a huge chara pull , crazy healing powers , and cells that can heal even cancer . Who knows what else he got ?
> 
> This is where we disagree , you know i like and respect you , but no , by feats , adult BSM Naruto is above Hashirama .
> 
> ...


Well if talk about Adult Naruto with Frog SM and 100% Kurama plus Rikudou Enchantment and Portions of Each Bijuu Chakra then he is for aure above Hashirama,but if it is Adult  Naruto with only BSM(100%Kurama and Frog SM) I think he is close to equal but still slightly inferior to Hashirama! 

Also Hashirama had Mokuton KK sure,but how are you sure he didn't develop on his own his Healing/Regeneration although his Senju Body helped but still Naruto had Kurama which Kishi for Naruto sake made even on 50% to be nearly above all Bijuu Combined which is ridiculous,but still Naruto got Kurama,Uzumaki Body andand Ashura Chakra plus free Hagoromo Boost,while Hashirama had Mokuton KK,Regeneration and his Strong Body and Chakra which he too as Naruto partly owns thanks to being Ashura Transcendent! 

With all my respect to you too my friend!


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well if talk about Adult Naruto with Frog SM and 100% Kurama plus Rikudou Enchantment and Portions of Each Bijuu Chakra then he is for aure above Hashirama,but if it is Adult  Naruto with only BSM(100%Kurama and Frog SM) I think he is close to equal but still slightly inferior to Hashirama!
> 
> Also Hashirama had Mokuton KK sure,but how are you sure he didn't develop on his own his Healing/Regeneration although his Senju Body helped but still Naruto had Kurama which Kishi for Naruto sake made even on 50% to be nearly above all Bijuu Combined which is ridiculous,but still Naruto got Kurama,Uzumaki Body andand Ashura Chakra plus free Hagoromo Boost,while Hashirama had Mokuton KK,Regeneration and his Strong Body and Chakra which he too as Naruto partly owns thanks to being Ashura Transcendent!
> 
> With all my respect to you too my friend!


He was portrayed to be on similar footing on prime Hashirama just after learning how to control kurama at the age of 16, now add to that another 16 years of experience, growth of his own chakra, mastery over his jutsu.

The point is a 16 year old inexperienced Naruto was more or less equal to a prime Hashirama. 32 year old experienced Naruto would be for sure stronger than Hashirama.

Edit: this is just BSM Naruto. RSM Naruto treat Hashirama as dust. No offense to the character, this is just the reality of the situation.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> He was portrayed to be on similar footing on prime Hashirama just after learning how to control kurama at the age of 16, now add to that another 16 years of experience, growth of his own chakra, mastery over his jutsu.
> 
> The point is a 16 year old inexperienced Naruto was more or less equal to a prime Hashirama. 32 year old experienced Naruto would be for sure stronger than Hashirama.
> 
> Edit: this is just BSM Naruto. RSM Naruto treat Hashirama as dust. No offense to the character, this is just the reality of the situation.


Of course RSM would crush Hashirama I have to be madman to say otherwise! 

I don't see 16 years Naruto as near equal to Hashirama at all...he was said to have a potential to surpass him but not that he was equal to him. Also 16 years of peace are not so much of Experience. Although I can agree on Adult Naruto being Equal to Hashirama with just Kurama and SM,but with Rikudou Enhancement and Bijuu Chakra he is way above Hashirama for sure! And thus he Surpassed Hashirama!


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Of course RSM would crush Hashirama I have to be madman to say otherwise!
> 
> I don't see 16 years Naruto as near equal to Hashirama at all...he was said to have a potential to surpass him but not that he was equal to him. Also 16 years of peace are not so much of Experience. Although I can agree on Adult Naruto being Equal to Hashirama with just Kurama and SM,but with Rikudou Enhancement and Bijuu Chakra he is way above Hashirama for sure! And thus he Surpassed Hashirama!


I never said equal, though. I used, on similar level and more or less.
I only think Naruto has more chakra than Hashirama. But we had different opinions on that.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> I never said equal, though. I used, on similar level and more or less.
> I only think Naruto has more chakra than Hashirama. But we had different opinions on that.


Well when you add basically the "strongest" Bijuu of course he would have more Chakra...but that is not nearly enough to someone as Hashirama who has almost equal amount of Chakra if not slightly more....And has Perfect Counters for nearly everything Naruto had back then!


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well when you add basically the "strongest" Bijuu of course he would have more Chakra...but that is not nearly enough to someone as Hashirama who has almost equal amount of Chakra if not slightly more....And has Perfect Counters for nearly everything Naruto had back then!


In that thread I always said Naruto + Kurama. Never once did I say Naruto's chakra alone. I'm not delusional.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> In that thread I always said Naruto + Kurama. Never once did I say Naruto's chakra alone. I'm not delusional.


Of course mate,I know ...I was just stating that out as and advantage of Naruto which he had trough Kurama!  No offense intended!


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Of course mate,I know ...I was just stating that out as and advantage of Naruto which he had trough Kurama!  No offense intended!


Well, yeah. Kishimoto had give Naruto something to make up for Hashirama's Mokuton. Considering both are Ashura's reincarnations.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Well, yeah. Kishimoto had give Naruto something to make up for Hashirama's Mokuton. Considering both are Ashura's reincarnations.


Exactly,but some people pretend like Hashirama got this and that and so much just like that,while Naruto was all on his own.... :/


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Exactly,but some people pretend like Hashirama got this and that and so much just like that,while Naruto was all on his own.... :/



Most probably l, hashirama's mokuton is a result of him being Ashura's reincarnation. I came to this conclusion because in the entirety of Senjutsu clan only Hashirama had mokuton.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Most probably l, hashirama's mokuton is a result of him being Ashura's reincarnation. I came to this conclusion because in the entirety of Senjutsu clan only Hashirama had mokuton.


While it seems logical I don't think it is so... while it may have something to do with that,Ashura himself was never shown or even hinted to have something similar to Mokuton,his Avatar in fact looks closer to Naruto. May be Hashirama learned it or unlocked it,but still kinda thanks to being e direct descendent of Kaguya,Hagoromo and Ashura. But the point is both Hashirama and Naruto got their own stuff to balance each other out. But if we put SM Naruto without Kyubi and such but with Rasengan and FRS and Barrages and such against Base Hashirama with just Mokuton Hashirama would stil win. Not everything they got is thanks to Ashura!


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Ashura himself was never shown or even hinted to have something similar to Mokuton,


We only got all of one panel of Ashura fighting. I'll agree on the healing part as even tsunade has it in some form.

His mokuton is basically the representation of yang energy which is Ashura's trait.


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## Android (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Of course RSM would crush Hashirama I have to be madman to say otherwise!
> 
> I don't see 16 years Naruto as near equal to Hashirama at all...he was said to have a potential to surpass him but not that he was equal to him. Also 16 years of peace are not so much of Experience. Although I can agree on Adult Naruto being Equal to Hashirama with just Kurama and SM,but with Rikudou Enhancement and Bijuu Chakra he is way above Hashirama for sure! And thus he Surpassed Hashirama!


I agree , war arc BSM loses to Hashirama mid-high difficulty . But what's impressive is the fact that the gap at that time wasn't that huge , especially when you look at his age , Naruto was 16 years old using BM which he got a day ago , and then BSM which he got 15 minutes ago , while Hashirama was (for the sake of the argument) , let's say he was 40 y/o , and he already hit his prime , yet Naruto with half the power of BSM was superior to him in some categories and was being comparer to him .
Character growth is a thing you know , in the same arc , Naruto got defeated by Juubito and got his chakra sucked dry , minutes after that , hé started getting used to his BSM , and starting tagging and landing hits on Juubito something that the kages couldn't do , so yes characters growth is à thing , for exemple , Naruto and Sasuke' rasengan/chidori clash destroys Madara and Hashorama's statues , while chapters before that , Sasuke's chidori couldn't scratch A , à year and à half after that , his chidori is obliteratong a meteor that à whole team of of 6th gâte users couldn't do , god knowd how strongest his PS chidori would be , Naruto using FRS in base with one hand , his Odama Rasengan destroying the Shinju and blowing Momoshiki to the outer space . God knows how string his super bijuudama would be .
This are just facts , fanboys (not talking about you) can try to deny it all they want , but it doesn't work , and it only makes them look like idiots .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> We only got all of one panel of Ashura fighting. I'll agree on the healing part as even tsunade has it in some form.
> 
> His mokuton is basically the representation of yang energy which is Ashura's trait.


Good point oj Ashura Energy,I agree withwith that! 

But still Young Hashirama was not shown or even hinted to have possessed the Mokuton,and while some may argue that it is the lack of Screen Time for Young Hashirama....it is something really significant and signature for him,and we have a Frame of Teen Madara and Hashirama around 12-14 not sure Clashing,but no sign of Mokuton and the next Frame of Young Adults Hashirama and Madara,Hashirama is using Mokuton,which I think may mean that had to Learn/Unlock or develop the Mokuton,rather than just having it,as he probably Developed/Created his Signless Healing/Regeneration Tech!


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Good point oj Ashura Energy,I agree withwith that!
> 
> But still Young Hashirama was not shown or even hinted to have possessed the Mokuton,and while some may argue that it is the lack of Screen Time for Young Hashirama....it is something really significant and signature for him,and we have a Frame of Teen Madara and Hashirama around 12-14 not sure Clashing,but no sign of Mokuton and the next Frame of Young Adults Hashirama and Madara,Hashirama is using Mokuton,which I think may mean that had to Learn/Unlock or develop the Mokuton,rather than just having it,as he probably Developed/Created his Signless Healing/Regeneration Tech!


Maybe it was the blossoming of chakra late in his life. Same thing happened with Naruto.

Everyone seem to think that Hashirama was some kind of Genius because he was able to defeat Madara, but in all the fights against madara, he's shown using mokuton. Even in the manga, there was nothing that suggested Hashirama's a genius. Even tobirama seemed to think Hashirama was an idiot. He was only good at fighting, as is Naruto.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Maybe it was the blossoming of chakra late in his life. Same thing happened with Naruto.
> 
> Everyone seem to think that Hashirama was some kind of Genius because he was able to defeat Madara, but in all the fights against madara, he's shown using mokuton. Even in the manga, there was nothing that suggested Hashirama's a genius. Even tobirama seemed to think Hashirama was an idiot. He was only good at fighting, as is Naruto.


Tobirama was thinking of Hashirama as an idiot mainly because of his relax attitude,his naive way if thinking and unserioousness some times. Not because he is an actual idiot. And while he is not Tobirama,Minato,Kakashi,Madara or Orochimaru Level of Intelligence he is  certainly not and idiot nor dumb by any means,he is not a Genius or something like those above. He is quite above Average I assume. Hashirama has similarities with Naruto in his Character but in everything. Even Hagoromo said Naruto is rather stupid compared to the previous Reincarnations.

So to think Hashirama is not capable of developing or creating something because he is similar to Naruto then I think is wrong,especially considering Naruto had shown to he quite innovative himself! 

Also Madara used Susanoo pretty much in every fight since childhood or when not exhausted!


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## Android (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> So to think Hashirama is not capable of developing or creating something because he is similar to Naruto then I think is wrong,especially considering Naruto had shown to he quite innovative himself!


Lol , even Naruto , who's à bit goofier than Hashirama has shown some impressive tactics with clone feints and such , hé even developed his own techniques like the rasenshuriken , the rasengan barrage , the super bijuu rasenshuriken , the Uzumaki région combo ..... etc etc 
I'm sure that all of Hashirama's techniques are his own création .
Oh , and Hashirama isn't an idiot , not even close , he just has that care free attitude .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Lol , even Naruto , who's à bit goofier than Hashirama has shown some impressive tactics with clone feints and such , hé even developed his own techniques like the rasenshuriken , the rasengan barrage , the super bijuu rasenshuriken , the Uzumaki région combo ..... etc etc
> I'm sure that all of Hashirama's techniques are his own création .
> Oh , and Hashirama isn't an idiot , not even close , he just has that care free attitude .


Exactly my  friend! 

Hashirama is in between Genius Levels and Above Average! And indeed considering Naruto who is supposed to be somehow stupid and bellow previous Reincarnations,had his moments! 

Tobirama claims for his brother idiotism is based in his care free and naive way of thinking mostly!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Exactly my  friend!
> 
> Hashirama is in between Genius Levels and Above Average! And indeed considering Naruto who is supposed to be somehow stupid and bellow previous Reincarnations,had his moments!
> 
> Tobirama claims for his brother idiotism is based in his care free and naive way of thinking mostly!


Lol , even the most impressive geniuses of this manga were called idiots , BZ called Itachi dense , he called Obito dense as well , Minato was called idiot as well , so Tobirama calling his brother an idiot isn't a big deal ,
Naruto's goofiness comes from the fact that he grow up without a family and was treated like crap by everyone , in his adult years as Hokage you can see that he got over his childlish quircks and became a Man .

Reactions: Like 1


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Lol , even the most impressive geniuses of this manga were called idiots , BZ called Itachi dense , he called Obito dense as well , Minato was called idiot as well , so Tobirama calling his brother an idiot isn't a big deal ,
> Naruto's goofiness comes from the fact that he grow up without a family and was treated like crap by everyone , in his adult years as Hokage you can see that he got over his childlish quircks and became a Man .


Correct me if I am wrong, didn't tobirama call Naruto an idiot and compared him to Hashirama while fighting the then strongest opponent? This should tell you something.

I'm not saying Hashirama is an idiot, but he is not the genius every one seems to think.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, didn't tobirama call Naruto an idiot and compared him to Hashirama while fighting the then strongest opponent? This should tell you something.
> 
> I'm not saying Hashirama is an idiot, but he is not the genius every one seems to think.


And yet  in  he end Tobirama said Naruto is even bigger idiot than Hashirama . And Hagoromo said Naruto is somehow stupider than the previous Reincarnations and yet he did some pretty impressive shit. And Hashirama is supposed to be above him. And considering Hashirama had some extensive Knowledge on Rikudou and etc. he doesn't seem so much as an idiot. He is  bellow the greatest minds of the Manga but still quite Intelligent on his own 

Tobirama was mainly talking about his brother character rather than IQ or over all Intelligence Level!


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> And yet  in  he end Tobirama said Naruto is even bigger idiot than Hashirama . And Hagoromo said Naruto is somehow stupider than the previous Reincarnations and yet he did some pretty impressive shit. And Hashirama is supposed to be above him. And considering Hashirama had some extensive Knowledge on Rikudou and etc. he doesn't seem so much as an idiot. He is  bellow the greatest minds of the Manga but still quite Intelligent on his own
> 
> *Tobirama was mainly talking about his brother character rather than IQ or over all Intelligence Level! *


I guess.

Why would tobirama bring in his brother's character in regards to Naruto forgetting the most important info that Naruto himself found out?
Edit: unless you think that Naruto was being carefree while fighting Jubi jinchuriki.


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## Android (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> call Naruto an idiot and compared him to Hashirama while fighting the then strongest opponent? This should tell you something.


No , it doesn't have to tell me anything , Tobirama isn't exactly the type of dude who gives crédit to anyone , even when he Sées something impressive .
He was also impressed by Naruto's abilities , how he figures Hiraishin , how he mastered SM et such age  , he also comparer all of thèse good traits with Hashirama. 
This should tell you something .
Like i said , even Minato and Itachi were called idiots .


Ichibat said:


> I'm not saying Hashirama is an idiot, but he is not the genius every one seems to think.


He doesn't need to be . He also isn't the type of idiot you're trying to imagine .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> I guess.
> 
> Why would tobirama bring in his brother's character in regards to Naruto forgetting the most important info that Naruto himself found out?
> Edit: unless you think that Naruto was being carefree while fighting Jubi jinchuriki.


What exactly mate? I didn't understand you properly,my apologize!


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No , it doesn't have to tell me anything , Tobirama isn't exactly the type of dude who gives crédit to anyone , even when he Sées something impressive .
> He was also impressed by Naruto's abilities , how he figures Hiraishin , how he mastered SM et such age  , he also comparer all of thèse good traits with Hashirama.
> This should tell you something .
> Like i said , even Minato and Itachi were called idiots .
> ...


Tobirama is the type of guy who doesn't give compliments out loud just like that for the sake of the one to whom the compliments are meant. Because when getting complimented and such may make someone overconfident and forget himself and make mistakes or stop aiming higher. 

Tobirama made fun of Minato on several occasions but still admitted Minato had better skills with Shunshin. Tobirama oftenly said Naruto is idiot but in his mind he was complementing him. He even said "Naruto I know you are not and idiot..." but Naruto care free and easy distracting personality holds him back some times. And although somehow dumb and idiot,he is not regural idiot without brains!

Reactions: Like 2


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> What exactly mate? I didn't understand you properly,my apologize!


Why would tobirama bring in hashirama's character or carefree attitude while fighting Jubi jinchuriki?


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Tobirama is the type of guy who doesn't give compliments out loud just like that for the sake of the one to whom the compliments are meant. Because when getting complimented and such may make someone overconfident and forget himself and make mistakes or stop aiming higher.
> 
> Tobirama made fun of Minato on several occasions but still admitted Minato had better skills with Shunshin. Tobirama oftenly said Naruto is idiot but in his mind he was complementing him. He even said "Naruto I know you are not and idiot..." but Naruto care free and easy distracting personality holds him back some times. And although somehow dumb and idiot,he is not regural idiot without brains!


Thanks. This post cleared my confusion.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Nov 1, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Why would tobirama bring in hashirama's character or carefree attitude while fighting Jubi jinchuriki?


Because trough Tobirama and his memories and experience with his Brother,Kishi made most of the comparison between Naruto and Hashirama. Tobirama was just admiring the new Generation and its potential. And was getting impressed that Naruto is doing fairly good in such situation!


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## Android (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Tobirama is the type of guy who doesn't give compliments out loud just like that for the sake of the one to whom the compliments are meant. Because when getting complimented and such may make someone overconfident and forget himself and make mistakes or stop aiming higher.
> 
> Tobirama made fun of Minato on several occasions but still admitted Minato had better skills with Shunshin. Tobirama oftenly said Naruto is idiot but in his mind he was complementing him. He even said "Naruto I know you are not and idiot..." but Naruto care free and easy distracting personality holds him back some times. And although somehow dumb and idiot,he is not regural idiot without brains!


Couldn't have said it better .

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## theRonin (Nov 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Because trough Tobirama and his memories and experience with his Brother,Kishi made most of the comparison between Naruto and Hashirama. Tobirama was just admiring the new Generation and its potential. And was getting impressed that Naruto is doing fairly good in such situation!


Yes. You previous post was crystal. Thank you.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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