# Kratos vs Akuma



## eaebiakuya (Feb 1, 2012)

Kratos from GOWIII

Distance: 20m


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## Toriko (Feb 1, 2012)

I doubt Kratos could really go HtH with Akuma, which is what this is going to boil down to.


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## Omnirix (Feb 1, 2012)

Does Kratos have anything that can protect him from Shun Goku Setsu?


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## BenTennyson (Feb 1, 2012)

Kratos' tanking soul steal/fuckery by Hades, who could steal Titan souls and had dominion over every soul that ever died should help.

Shun Goku Setsu is Akuma's best best though.


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## Omnirix (Feb 1, 2012)

But Shun Goku setsu is not a soul fucking attack. It is just an instant kill. Otherwise, Bison or Gill wouldn't be able to come back.


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## NemeBro (Feb 1, 2012)

Shun Goku no Satsu is not going to help against someone who resisted soulfuck from a being that regulates the souls of the dead within his own body.

With Kratos Akuma finds himself the rare opponent who can take his best punch, and has the physical strength to hurt him in turn. Kratos has manhandled giant monsters, and above all proven physically strong enough to match Titans (Stopped and threw back a Leviathan that rushed him, which could stop Gaia's fist or pull entire Titans from Mount Olympus, pulling them into the sea. Also overpowered Hades, whom, with his chains, could do the same. Stopped himself from being crushed by both Atlas and Cronos. Etc. )

Frankly I think it would be suicide for Akuma to go hand to hand with Kratos. It is a matter of reaction-time, and both powerscaling and feats point to Kratos' reaction-time being considerably greater.

Though, Akuma does have good AOE attacks, so if he plays keep-away he could win.

Edit: Bison fled his body before being hit by it, didn't he?

Yeah, in the UDON manga, I specifically recall Akuma saying that Seth only survived being hit by it due to not having a soul.


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## Omnirix (Feb 1, 2012)

Akuma still sunk an island with a punch. Are the giant monsters Kratos fought that big?



NemeBro said:


> Edit: Bison fled his body before being hit by it, didn't he?



No he was killed and then his soul ventures into a clone body. Gill also resurrected himself after being hit.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 1, 2012)

No they aren't island sized, they are 500 meters/1640 feet tall. (Though Kratos did fight Gyges, the living island in the comics and killed it by blast it with either Apollo's or Helios' flames).

But they are super durable. Atlas for instance was seen pointblank in the middle of an explosion that destroyed the pillar of the world, (which is durable enough to hold up the world's weight) and he was completely unphased. Yet the blades of chaos could still go through Atlas' skin. 

And by God of War 3, Kratos is more durable than Atlas.


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## 786SalamKhan (Feb 1, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> But Shun Goku setsu is not a soul fucking attack. It is just an instant kill. Otherwise, Bison or Gill wouldn't be able to come back.



Well Bison has a new body because part of his soul was in Rose but Gill actually resurrected. lol
This is because Shun Goku Satsu causes more damage to people who have more sin; Gill most likey rarely sinned thus he was killed but his soul wasn't.


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## Omnirix (Feb 1, 2012)

786SalamKhan said:


> Well Bison has a new body because part of his soul was in Rose but Gill actually resurrected. lol
> This is because Shun Goku Satsu causes more damage to people who have more sin; Gill most likey rarely sinned thus he was killed but his soul wasn't.



Oh I see. 



BenTennyson said:


> No they aren't island sized, they are 500 meters/1640 feet tall. (Though Kratos did fight Gyges, the living island in the comics and killed it by blast it with either Apollo's or Helios' flames).
> 
> But they are super durable. Atlas for instance was seen pointblank in the middle of an explosion that destroyed the pillar of the world, (which is durable enough to hold up the world's weight) and he was completely unphased. Yet the blades of chaos could still go through Atlas' skin.
> 
> And by God of War 3, Kratos is more durable than Atlas.


So Kratos have planet level durability? Or is that statement a hyperbole and can't be proven?


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## Toriko (Feb 1, 2012)

Kratos absolutely does not have planet level durability and neither does anyone else in his verse.

And IIRC, that pillar was not _literally _holding up the earth.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 1, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> So Kratos have planet level durability? Or is that statement a hyperbole and can't be proven?



No, definitely not planet level. 

I'd say country/continent level.

The pillar doesn't hold up the world as in the entire globe. It basically holds up the world from the crust up, separating it from the underworld and tartarus.

The top of the pillar blew up after Persephone's death, and Atlas was stuck holding up the world for all eternity in its place.


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## Bender (Feb 1, 2012)

I agree with Ben. 

Kratos most likely has country level durability. 

Kratos has resisted soul-fucking of godly levels and turned their soul fucking back on them. Also he resisted Atlas who is able to toss mountains and etc.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Feb 1, 2012)

Kongo-Kokuretzusan


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## NemeBro (Feb 1, 2012)

If it lands, it could do some damage.

But Kratos could slash Akuma multiple times before Akuma could pull off that move.


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## Bender (Feb 1, 2012)

Kratos would rip Akuma a new asshole before he knows what hits him.


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## Uncle Phantom (Feb 1, 2012)

Akuma wins


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## Kurou (Feb 1, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> But Shun Goku setsu is not a soul fucking attack



It is actually



Bison survived because part of him was hidden away in Rose who's his other half or some shit

Gen survived because he emptied his soul

Same with Gouken though Gouken took a while to come back.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Feb 2, 2012)

Bender said:


> Kratos would rip Akuma a new asshole before he knows what hits him.



**Yeah, no


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2012)

Bender said:


> Kratos would rip Akuma a new asshole before he knows what hits him.



Bender you should stop hatin' on SSFIV because ya don't like it. Akuma wins against Kratos even though Kratos has better lifting feats. One Island-busting/Forest-razing blow will kill Kratos.


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## Bender (Feb 2, 2012)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> **Yeah, no



Care to explain why good sir? 

There's Zeus who stopped the Titans with the blade of Olympus and wiped out all of Sparta. 

Oh, and then there's Kratos whupping Cronos punk-ass like he was a big baby bitch. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoc4PYVewF4&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0Gu-VJedLA&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

You saying Akuma can take down a big fuck like Cronos?


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## BenTennyson (Feb 2, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Bender you should stop hatin' on SSFIV because ya don't like it. Akuma wins against Kratos even though Kratos has better lifting feats. One Island-busting/Forest-razing blow will kill Kratos.



Kratos can take that and keep going.

Akuma's skin will provide no resistance for the Blades of Exile on the other hand.


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## Bender (Feb 2, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Bender you should stop hatin' on SSFIV because ya don't like it. Akuma wins against Kratos even though Kratos has better lifting feats. One Island-busting/Forest-razing blow will kill Kratos.



Me hating SSFIV has absolutely nothing to do with me saying Akuma loses.

@NMG

Even if Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu is  soul fuck it doesn't mean shit to Kratos who resisted soul fucking from both Hades and Zeus.


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## NemeBro (Feb 2, 2012)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> **Yeah, no



Kratos' superior reaction-time would disagree actually.

Kratos has deflected lightning thrown by Zeus, and reacted to gods, whom have quite a few hypersonic feats under their belts. 

Akuma finds himself in the position of fighting someone who can quite handily best him in melee.

Kratos is surely not being one-shot either. Surviving being propelled by the force of a volcanic eruption and landing on his feet, blocking the Blade of Olympus wielded by Zeus with his hands, and his reaction-time means he can adequately use the Golden Fleece to block most attacks as well.


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## Toriko (Feb 2, 2012)

Wasn't the lighting timing thing a gameplay mechanic?


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## Bender (Feb 2, 2012)

Brohan said:


> Wasn't the lighting timing thing a gameplay mechanic?



Nope far from it sir.


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## NemeBro (Feb 2, 2012)

Brohan said:


> Wasn't the lighting timing thing a gameplay mechanic?



I would not define it as such personally.

Gameplay mechanics are things like Link being unable to jump, or theoretically being capable of killing the big robot monster by doing 1 damage over and over again using tiny arrows, and such.

This is just something Kratos can do in gameplay.

It doesn't really matter though, powerscaling and feats give Kratos the reaction-time advantage regardless.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 2, 2012)

Brohan said:


> Wasn't the lighting timing thing a gameplay mechanic?



It was a non-optional QTE.


Even the usual lightning 'orbs' that Zeus tosses have a speed feat; he has casually thrown one with a flick of the wrist, all the way from Mt. Olympus to the coast of Egypt in an 'instant'. So even if we assume an instant meant one full second, it would still be massively hypersonic since that's well over 600 miles.


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## Toriko (Feb 2, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> I would not define it as such personally.
> 
> Gameplay mechanics are things like Link being unable to jump, or theoretically being capable of killing the big robot monster by doing 1 damage over and over again using tiny arrows, and such.
> 
> ...



Didn't need an explantion on gameplay mechanics bro, just asking if the feat was legit since I haven't played GoW since 3 came out.


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## NemeBro (Feb 2, 2012)

I was explaining why I didn't consider it such. 

Ben, when did Zeus do that?


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## BenTennyson (Feb 2, 2012)

It was in the God of War novel.

Ares was in Egypt, stomping around causing terror. And Zeus was trying to speak to him from Olympus. Ares ignored him so Zeus out of annoyance threw the bolt right next to Ares to spook him and to get his attention.


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## NemeBro (Feb 2, 2012)

Manly. Not heard of this.


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## Bender (Feb 2, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> Manly. Not heard of this.



DUDE

Kratos is the god of manliness.

HE defines manliness.

He is manliness incarnate


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## Cygnus45 (Feb 3, 2012)

Based on that Zeus novel feat, Kratos dances circles around Akuma, and basically unloads on him from any weapon in his armory. Akuma can hurt him, even kill him, but he's too slow and has far less options when it comes to attacking (punch and throw fireballs). This would be an awesome fight to see regardless.


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 3, 2012)

Wait, why are we using that novel of Zeus throwing that lightning bolt as something to compare with Kratos? Zeus never did something like that against Kratos. 

Even in gameplay, the so-called 'lightning' he uses as attacks don't even act like lightning and are either easily telegraphed or aimdodged. 

In cutscenes, Kratos never even managed to avoid or react properly to lightning that's already moving towards him. That one instance in God of War 2 where Zeus was zapping him, all he did was staying in one spot and making an attempt to block it before pretending to give up.

Why do we assume now that the novel with Zeus doing something to Ares is now related to Kratos' reaction when we see in the games that in cutscenes, the attacks Zeus uses that can even be considered lightning bolts take a pretty long time to come out. *see near God of War III's intro*


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## Bender (Feb 3, 2012)

@ Cypher

In GoW III intro when Zeus attacked Kratos with that lightning bolt he needed to summon the energy for that powerful strike dice it wasn't just Kratos he was attacking but Gaia.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 3, 2012)

Cypher0120 said:


> Wait, why are we using that novel of Zeus throwing that lightning bolt as something to compare with Kratos? Zeus never did something like that against Kratos.



Throw 'orb' lightning at Kratos? Yes. He does that * all* the time.



> Even in gameplay, the so-called 'lightning' he uses as attacks don't even act like lightning and are either easily telegraphed or aimdodged.



What, pray tell, do you mean 'act' like lightning? Gameplay speed itself is the only thing that comes to mind, but unfortunately, that's gameplay speed. Not relevant by itself. 

Secondly, you keep mentioning telegraphed or aim-dodge but never actually demonstrate how its the case. 

Two equals in reaction time, one throw objects at the other, and the other reacting to it just before the point of impact. This is more or less exactly the same situation as a batter hitting a baseball that a pitcher throws (only difference of course is that the pitcher is not actually aiming to hit the batter himself. ). He's reacting after the fact. And if his reflexes are not up to par, he will not hit it, even despite the fact that he knows its coming. You are simply trying to add redundant terms to a scenario that's already simplified to its core elements.



> In cutscenes, Kratos never even managed to avoid or react properly to lightning that's already moving towards him. That one instance in God of War 2 where Zeus was zapping him, all he did was staying in one spot and making an attempt to block it before pretending to give up.



Non-optional QTEs are cutscenes. And In God of War 2, Kratos reacted to/blocked 'force-lightning' from Zeus palms, and he blocked it _after _it was fired, he did not start before hand. 

Why the mention of staying in 'one-spot' as a relevant counterpoint is beyond me, seeing as the force lightning covers the entire battlefield Kratos is standing on.

The point for the feat is the fact that he blocked the lightning from Zeus' palms after he fired it. 



> Why do we assume now that the novel with Zeus doing something to Ares is now related to Kratos' reaction when we see in the games that in cutscenes, the attacks Zeus uses that can even be considered lightning bolts take a pretty long time to come out. *see near God of War III's intro*



Because Zeus never used a cloud to ground lightning bolt against Ares, rather he threw an orb of lightning, directly from the palm of his hand, and it _still_ had lightning like speed. And it was a casual feat as well. And he uses the exact same thing against Kratos in battle consistently, and it is something that can be blocked by the fleece just before impact. 

As for God of War 3's intro, the lightning that he threw *in front* of Kratos cannot be assumed to move slowly just because we can see it move, that by itself is not a detail for argument in games, it takes more factors to determine things like this. Afterall, we do not assume a bullet is moving slow just because we can see it in a cutscene, do we? (As was the case with Irvine trying to snipe Edea in FF8). And besides that, the toss seems to have been in slow motion.

We have a speed feat from the novel for hand tossed lightning, and it was casual and outside of battle. It is obtuse to claim one would deliberately sabotage his own chances of winning by suddenly throwing his weapons slower than he can when in an actual serious situation like a battle. 

The inevitable 'magic lightning' properties argument also doesn't work in this case because Zeus is in direct control of all lightning. It is his element to command, and he has literally done things like change weather patterns across entire regions just as a consequence of breathing heavy. His lightning *is* natural lightning. Every cloud to ground lightning bolt you see in the background in God of War games while just traversing a level or even during fighting Zeus himself, is his lightning. 

Why he would allow his own 'normal' lightning to go on in the background and not aid him in a fight if his supposed 'magical' lightning is slower is beyond me. Perhaps because, you know, they are actually equivalent afterall? Afterall, he has thrown his 'orb' lightning all the way from the sky down at Sparta too, and this was directly in a God of War 2 cutscene.


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## Gomu (Feb 3, 2012)

This is very interesting to me. How in the world does Kratos even with the speed he has, capable of harming a character who has the ability to not only casually punch an island into the sea in one blow, but also take blows from a character that is basically the yin to his yang and tank those same powerful blows. Kratos has greater speed feats, however, how the fuck does he harm him? These blades you speak of didn't seem to soul fuck or ignore durability in game. So I'm not getting the logic, it doesn't matter who's manly or a better character. Akuma has better Durability and DC feats.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 3, 2012)

The blades are canoncially unbreakable and supernaturally sharp and never dull. All stated. And Kratos' strength is behind them. It might as well be saying Wolverine can't cut Akuma, which is false.

Atlas is more durable than Akuma. And the blades of chaos, when Kratos was at his weakest in Chains of Olympus, could still go through his skin. No problem.


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## Gomu (Feb 3, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> The blades are canoncially unbreakable and supernaturally sharp and never dull. All stated. And Kratos' strength is behind them. It might as well be saying Wolverine can't cut Akuma, which is false.
> 
> Atlas is more durable than Akuma. And the blades of chaos, when Kratos was at his weakest in Chains of Olympus, could still go through his skin. No problem.



And again. I keep saying that it doesn't matter. First off, these characters are from the games correct? The characters don't have as much "power" per-say as the true counterparts from the books. Atlas can be as durable as he wants. It doesn't mean anything if Akuma uses an AOE attack on Kratos.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 3, 2012)

Umm...huh?

I'm talking about in-God of War universe feats.

Atlas is more durable than Akuma, by feats. (and Kratos is more durable than Atlas by God of War 3 via comparative fights). His skin provided no resistance for the Blades. Neither will Akuma's. 

The island sinking is cool, but Kratos, while weaker than he was in God of War 3, tanked being inside a volcanic eruption. It flung him miles away and this eruption ending up sinking Atlantis, which is on an island itself.

Akuma will have a harder time hurting Kratos than vice-versa.


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## Gomu (Feb 3, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Umm...huh?
> 
> I'm talking about in-God of War universe feats.
> 
> ...



OK if we really want to go that far. Oni who is Akuma's full form tanked magma like it wasn't shit and caused a huge explosion within a volcano. This is Base Akuma (though powerscaling places Oni on the highest of the food chain stronger any character that exists in the SF Universe, lmao.), however... Akuma however what you're saying is that Akuma has nothing to take Kratos down or that it'll be easy for Akuma to get caught in the crossfire of attacks. Either way, Akuma is stronger than all the characters in GOW it seems. As their highest feats of DC are only skyscraper, maybe cityblock. 

Something Akuma can tank easily with his durability of fighting against Gouken who is as I said before his exact opposite with similar fighting powers and skills including durability and destructive capability. Lets not forget, Kratos can also take a soul fucking.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 3, 2012)

Akuma can't soul fuck Kratos.


Akuma is not stronger than Kratos either. Kratos resisted being squashed by Atlas, who can hold up the God of War world for eternity. Kratos can contend with Hercules in strength, who even within God of War, was stated to hold the world over his shoulders in place of Atlas during one of his 12 labors. Kratos' punches don't do AOE damage like Akuma's does, but that by itself doesn't mean anything. Pressure (force over area) is what matters in the end. And Kratos can hurt Zeus with punches, who is comparable in durability to himself.

Once more, Atlas' greatest durability feat > Akuma's. Tanking the destruction of the Pillar of the World while point blank in center is immense. Kratos is comfortably above Atlas in durability by God of War 3.


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## NemeBro (Feb 3, 2012)

God of War does not have as many feats of destructive capacity, but what Kratos and others around his level do have are physical strength out the ass. Kratos has stopped Titans from crushing him like Atlas, who could support the world at his shoulders and has been doing so for years, or Cronos, who has spent thousands of years walking around with a large fortress on his back, that doesn't appear to signifigantly discomfort him based on his fight with Kratos.

Ben, you mentioned Kratos destroying a monster that is an island. Can you elaborate on that?

Edit: Yeah, soulfucking is not an option. Kratos resisted it from a being who regulates the souls of all the dead with his own body.


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## Bender (Feb 3, 2012)

Ben Tennyson 

You truly are the greatest GoW Kratos supporter I have had the fortune to meet.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 3, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> Ben, you mentioned Kratos destroying a monster that is an island. Can you elaborate on that?



It's not something I would count as a day to day feat because of context. It's just something that I thought was interesting.

In the comics Kratos fought something called Gyges, a living island. IIRC he stated himself to be a child of Ouranos himself, who the island stated created the universe.

Anyway, Kratos used the Flames of Apollo to consume the island. However, he only ever had the Flames in this one instance, so its not standard equipment.


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## Gomu (Feb 3, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> It's not something I would count as a day to day feat because of context. It's just something that I thought was interesting.
> 
> In the comics Kratos fought something called Gyges, a living island. IIRC he stated himself to be a child of Ouranos himself, who the island stated created the universe.
> 
> Anyway, Kratos used the Flames of Apollo to consume the island. However, he only ever had the Flames in this one instance, so its not standard equipment.



If we're using things outside the games and inside the games Akuma would win this because of his two power ups Shin Akuma and Oni. Lets not count other feats and  go with the game feats.


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## NemeBro (Feb 3, 2012)

Gomu why is your reading comprehension so bad?


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## BenTennyson (Feb 3, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> It's not something I would count as a day to day feat because of context. It's just something that I thought was interesting.
> 
> In the comics Kratos fought something called Gyges, a living island. IIRC he stated himself to be a child of Ouranos himself, who the island stated created the universe.
> 
> Anyway, Kratos used the Flames of Apollo to consume the island. However, he only ever had the Flames in this one instance, so its not standard equipment.



To add to this, I guess the main point to take away from the feat is that a portion of Apollo's power can wipe away an entire island.


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## Gomu (Feb 3, 2012)

How is that? Im reading everything.


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## NemeBro (Feb 3, 2012)

I asked him about the feat, and then he deliberately noted that it doesn't really apply to Kratos during this fight.

That said, powerscaling says that Zeus could do the same as Apollo.


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## Disaresta (Feb 3, 2012)

So how many ways have we listed for akuma to stomp?


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## NemeBro (Feb 3, 2012)

If Akuma tries to punch Kratos, he will lose his arm and then his head. 

Kratos' speed and ability to hurt Akuma with his blades quite easily are not a good combination for melee.

Akuma's best chance is ranged attacks.


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## Gomu (Feb 3, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> If Akuma tries to punch Kratos, he will lose his arm and then his head.
> 
> Kratos' speed and ability to hurt Akuma with his blades quite easily are not a good combination for melee.
> 
> Akuma's best chance is ranged attacks.



It's too bad Akuma has a more efficient use of his amount of long-range attacks than Kratos, hm? And cutting off his arms. I'm still trying to find an attack that makes Akuma's island durability null.

Just saying.

Edit: Great efficiency not amount sorry.


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 3, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Throw 'orb' lightning at Kratos? Yes. He does that * all* the time.



So he does. 



> What, pray tell, do you mean 'act' like lightning? Gameplay speed itself is the only thing that comes to mind, but unfortunately, that's gameplay speed. Not relevant by itself.
> 
> Secondly, you keep mentioning telegraphed or aim-dodge but never actually demonstrate how its the case.
> 
> ...



Ignoring the fact that after Zeus said, "I am through playing with you," Kratos didn't do anything. All he was doing after that was not so much blocking the lightning but just tanking it and doing nothing else. You already claimed it was an AoE, Zeus was aiming for a general area, why are you assuming that Kratos suddenly reacted to the bolts themselves when it may as well be just him reacting to the fact that Zeus was raising his hand over the area in anticipation of an electrical attack.



> Because Zeus never used a cloud to ground lightning bolt against Ares, rather he threw an orb of lightning, directly from the palm of his hand, and it _still_ had lightning like speed. And it was a casual feat as well. And he uses the exact same thing against Kratos in battle consistently, and it is something that can be blocked by the fleece just before impact.



1. Quantify it.
2. Show it's the same type of lightning he was using against Kratos considering the different 'types' of lightning he uses. Why assume they're now the same speed as lightning if they don't even behave the same way.
3. This isn't about the speed of after it was thrown, it's the fact that every single time he used that kind of lightning, he always had to reach back and throw it. The only time his lightning looked almost instantaneous was when he barraged Kratos with electricity which again, Kratos did not react in any quantifiable mean.



> As for God of War 3's intro, the lightning that he threw *in front* of Kratos cannot be assumed to move slowly just because we can see it move, that by itself is not a detail for argument in games, it takes more factors to determine things like this. Afterall, we do not assume a bullet is moving slow just because we can see it in a cutscene, do we? (As was the case with Irvine trying to snipe Edea in FF8). And besides that, the toss seems to have been in slow motion.



Not talking about the speed of the lightning itself. The fact that he had to gather up energy to unleash that just to have more destructive capacity than the bolts he used in the non-optional QTE cutscene in God of War 2 doesn't show much. He still had to toss it, why assume it's in slow motion now again?



> We have a speed feat from the novel for hand tossed lightning, and it was casual and outside of battle. It is obtuse to claim one would deliberately sabotage his own chances of winning by suddenly throwing his weapons slower than he can when in an actual serious situation like a battle.



Why? He threw a lightning bolt from Greece to Egypt... okay. So what does that prove? Ares wasn't there. It struck close to Ares but that's it. It's not like you can quantify it as anything more noteworthy than the speed it travelled there is impressive. There was no reaction feat for that. Ares never saw it coming. Can you quantify it please? 



> The inevitable 'magic lightning' properties argument also doesn't work in this case because Zeus is in direct control of all lightning. It is his element to command, and he has literally done things like change weather patterns across entire regions just as a consequence of breathing heavy. His lightning *is* natural lightning. Every cloud to ground lightning bolt you see in the background in God of War games while just traversing a level or even during fighting Zeus himself, is his lightning.



Lightning that acts in different forms, can be cloned, move at varying speeds, etc. He has different forms of it so why should they be considered the same as actual lightning? It's already established that the mythology itself had been changed. Why should God of War mythology be exempt from the rules where other fictions with supposed 'lightning-timing feats' aren't valid when the feats themselves contradict or cannot be quantified?



> Why he would allow his own 'normal' lightning to go on in the background and not aid him in a fight if his supposed 'magical' lightning is slower is beyond me. Perhaps because, you know, they are actually equivalent afterall? Afterall, he has thrown his 'orb' lightning all the way from the sky down at Sparta too, and this was directly in a God of War 2 cutscene.



Or you know, by Occam's Razor, the gods themselves from what they've shown are not as controlling of their element as we're led to believe. Or should you be reminded of the less than stellar performance of other gods in their respective elements like Helios and the Sun? Yeah, their sun already isn't on the same level as the real sun. So why assume their lightning is now the same?


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## Missing_Nin (Feb 4, 2012)

Cypher0120 said:


> Wait, why are we using that novel of Zeus throwing that lightning bolt as something to compare with Kratos? Zeus never did something like that against Kratos.
> 
> Even in gameplay, the so-called 'lightning' he uses as attacks don't even act like lightning and are either easily telegraphed or aimdodged.
> 
> ...



if you're using gameplay then akuma's fireball travels even slower.


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## Toriko (Feb 5, 2012)

That's not the point of what he's trying to say.


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## eaebiakuya (Feb 6, 2012)

Kratos is the winner then?


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## NemeBro (Feb 6, 2012)

Ben is being a lazy dick so I guess I will answer this for him.



Cypher0120 said:


> So he does.



Damn right he does. 



> Ignoring the fact that after Zeus said, "I am through playing with you," Kratos didn't do anything. All he was doing after that was not so much blocking the lightning but just tanking it and doing nothing else. You already claimed it was an AoE, Zeus was aiming for a general area, why are you assuming that Kratos suddenly reacted to the bolts themselves when it may as well be just him reacting to the fact that Zeus was raising his hand over the area in anticipation of an electrical attack.



What is your point here? That Kratos didn't block it?


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## Veikuri (Feb 6, 2012)

What is with this board and Akuma wank... The dude said Gen was worthy of a death match. That should tell you what Akuma's level is. Even if you account those over hyped feats, they must take up massive prep seeing as how he never/doesn't use them in a real fight. 

Akuma isn't the god of the Street Fighter verse. He is just a bit stronger than the majority. He gets stomped by Kratos. 

This is a case of very high end feats vs average feats


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## NemeBro (Feb 6, 2012)

Veikuri said:


> What is with this board and Akuma wank... The dude said Gen was worthy of a death match. That should tell you what Akuma's level is. Even if you account those over hyped feats, they must take up massive prep seeing as how he never/doesn't use them in a real fight.
> 
> Akuma isn't the god of the Street Fighter verse. He is just a bit stronger than the majority. He gets stomped by Kratos.
> 
> This is a case of very high end feats vs average feats



Gen is very fast and, while not possessing the raw power of Akuma, he can still kill with a touch. Also, Gen is nowhere near his prime in any Streetfighter game.

I am arguing for Kratos, but Akuma is still very strong. Credit should be given where credit is due.


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## Veikuri (Feb 6, 2012)

So a Gen not in his prime on his death bed was able to give Akuma a match.... Do you understand how you sound?

Akuma gets credit.. He just isn't as strong as people make him out to be.


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## Kurou (Feb 6, 2012)

Veikuri said:


> The dude said Gen was worthy of a death match. That should tell you what Akuma's level is. Even if you account those over hyped feats, they must take up massive prep seeing as how he never/doesn't use them in a real fight.




Because Akuma doesn't lower himself for a good fight, and none of them took any prep, it's just CIS/PIS on his part.



> Akuma isn't the god of the Street Fighter verse. He is just a bit stronger than the majority.






Who said anything about him being the god? and a bit? yeah, when other people start sinking islands with punches and then go through two more power ups you can say that.



> This is a case of very high end feats vs average feats



Except these account for almost all of his feats. In hindsight you're just trying to use PIS/CIS as an argument to try and downplay him. In the end it just sounds like the ramblings of some someone who's frustrated.


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## Cygnus45 (Feb 6, 2012)

I never understood the whole "magic lightning" bullshit. And it makes no sense for Zeus to use slower lightning against his most hated nemesis in an endgame scenario.


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## NemeBro (Feb 6, 2012)

Veikuri said:


> So a Gen not in his prime on his death bed was able to give Akuma a match.... Do you understand how you sound?
> 
> Akuma gets credit.. He just isn't as strong as people make him out to be.



You do realise that all the other top-tiers of Streetfighter don't really have feats like Akuma does, only showings against Akuma, right?

Akuma has a long history of consistently impressive feats.

He is the standard upon which all top-tiers in Streetfighter are measured. Gouken and Oro rival him, Gen could give a holding back Akuma a fight before Akuma stopped the match due to the dishonor of fighting a sick person, Akuma has beaten Bison and Seth, arguably Gill as well.

Actually, Shin Bison also has some pretty impressive feats.

So he is as strong as people make him out to be.


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 7, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> What is your point here? That Kratos didn't block it?


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## BenTennyson (Feb 7, 2012)

Sigh. Sorry for the Delay. Was busy. Multi-post coming through. 

Nemebro trying to Ninja _me_? Pah.



Cypher0120 said:


> Ignoring the fact that after Zeus said, "I am through playing with you," Kratos didn't do anything. All he was doing after that was not so much blocking the lightning but just tanking it and doing nothing else. You already claimed it was an AoE, Zeus was aiming for a general area, why are you assuming that Kratos suddenly reacted to the bolts themselves when it may as well be just him reacting to the fact that Zeus was raising his hand over the area in anticipation of an electrical attack.



What relevance the first part has to the rest, I'm not seeing. 

You are trying to finagle a different interpretation out of it. If he simply 'tanked' it, then why does the animation showing him swiftly and robotically put the blade in front of him? That's blocking. No matter what you are trying to do while Zeus is talking, the animation will automatically shift to a blocking pose with the blade of olympus in front of him, immediately upon Zeus firing--even if you jump, it automatically switches to a blocking stance mid-air. That's blocking. The visuals of the QTE itself? If you don't continually press circle, Zeus' bolt will start to push you back, press circle, and you stay braced and actually push against it with the blade. That, too, means he's actually blocking, seeing that he's pushing forward with the blade with if you press circle, and starts to get pushed back and overwhelmed with the blade if you don't press circle. 

It would be another thing if the animation actually shows him getting damaged by the lightning initially and then struggle to put up the blade after the fact to shield himself from the rest of it, but that is not what happens at all. 

remember this?
^First several seconds. That's blocking. 

How do we know Kratos' wasn't reacting to Zeus' hand? Because that's not what the visuals show. You are posing questions regarding plausible outcomes instead of actually showing them because you can't show them. Whereas I am simply going off the visuals. Zeus blasts a wide spray of electricity at Kratos, and Kratos blocks it with the BoO, whereas he was not holding the sword like that before, clearly. Ergo, it was a reaction.


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 7, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> snip




AKA: Visuals from an obvious gameplay mechanic that doesn't actually show any relevant reaction time considering all Kratos was doing in the middle of said QTE was just pushing back. No reacting to a change in position or anything of the sort. Try again.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 7, 2012)

> 1. Quantify it.
> 2. Show it's the same type of lightning he was using against Kratos considering the different 'types' of lightning he uses. Why assume they're now the same speed as lightning if they don't even behave the same way.
> 3. This isn't about the speed of after it was thrown, it's the fact that every single time he used that kind of lightning, he always had to reach back and throw it. The only time his lightning looked almost instantaneous was when he barraged Kratos with electricity which again, Kratos did not react in any quantifiable mean.



Let me post the whole scene right quick:


And you asked in another thread, is the novel canon? Yes, we would treat it as canon, probably it would be deemed 'secondary' canon or some other term. Because the author, Robert Vardeman, stated that he worked with Sony the whole time regarding the plot, and he was urged to be consistent with the plot, and he was not allowed to contradict anything about the happenings of the game without getting approved first. For example if there was anything in God of War 1 that happened but didn't happen in the God of War novel, the game takes precedent. That's how secondary canon works. The most glaring difference between actual game events is that Kratos doesn't get Hades' gift in the novel. Which he stated in an e-mail conversation with me that he left it out because he felt the story would flow better without Kratos getting another power from a God. (I no longer have access to this e-mail convo before you ask, as it was on my university account and that closes a few months after one graduates.) Anyway, the main draw of the books isn't retelling the game's story but for filling in more information. As Vardeman more or less states in an interview here:



"Play: How closely did you have to stick to the plot of the game itself?
RV: It was necessary to give gamers a solid foundation—and this was the story of Kratos they already knew so well.  But a novel is a completely different creature from a game.  Fighting minotaurs and undead legionnaires requires a lot of dexterity and reflexes but not much in the way of dramatic tension or plot arc or characterization.  To make a novel that didn’t simply follow the splendid action of the game required additional material.  What was Zeus doing while Kratos battled?  What did Athena do to remove Ares when Zeus had decreed that one god could not fight another?  This added political fighting, subterfuge, back-stabbing and clandestine alliances behind the scenes to give motivation to Kratos’ battles. So, the game plot is all there but with new material to add dramatic elements best suited in a novel."

and

"Play: Do you think Kratos could support further novels, perhaps going beyond the events of the three games?
RV: I am currently working on the second GOD OF WAR book, again following the game while adding and expanding and explaining the machinations of the gods (and heroes)(and Titans)(and Fates) to the mix.  Beyond the games’ plots are so many potential story ideas where Kratos would be a perfect fit that it would be a shame if there weren’t auxiliary books to fill in the details of his quest as well as stories while a minion of Ares (or even a Spartan commander before he met the Barbarian King).  And then there could be…but there are so many exciting possibilities to expand the adventures of the Ghost of Sparta."

So yeah. The novel would be considered story expansions including elements and characters outside of  what just Kratos himself is doing. Same deal with the wildstorm comics btw, in interviews they also said their story was direct expansion and that they worked very closely with Sony.


Moving on.

1. Sure. Not an issue at all. The distance between the actual Mount Olympus and say, Cairo, Egypt, a north eastern city (arbitrarily chosen location), is about 1000 miles. Typical lightning bolt travels about 39 miles per second according to wiki. 

Meaning, a typical lightning bolt could travel from Mount Olympus to Cairo in about 25 seconds. Now, Zeus' bolt was stated to reach egypt in an instant, and an instant most definitely denotes less than a second. How do we know this? Other than the logic of recalling the basic definition of instant, its because the book uses the word second(s) as a measure of time in other instances. So most definitely there was meant to be a distinction in how quick it happened versus the word second, and thus instant was used. However we could ignore the book's wording and simply go with on full 'second' for a more conservative minium, which would still leave it at greatly above the average stroke of lightning speedwise.

2.  What are you talking about, seriously. You are trying to create a more complex system then there is, trying to establish a platform for plausible deniability. What 'different types' of lightning does he use? Don't use vague verbage and designations that have no basis in the fiction. It's the exact same energy type, the exact same sound, the exact same color, the exact same shape, same purpose (offense) and its from the exact same source (Zeus). The only difference is how the electrokinetic in question, (Zeus) manipulates the same exact energy. That is the only difference in 'behavior', Zeus' behavior. The lightning itself has the same end properties until proven otherwise, being seperated only by potency (power). 

I don't have to prove anything other than what I've already demonstrated, that his absolutely weakest form of lightning, has an immutable speed feat. Again, operating word here is 'weakest', NOT 'different'. Power is what is the main point of difference here. Everything else is the same. And power differential being that Zeus' weakest bolts are  the tiny 'orb'/lightning spears that he tosses (in GoW 2 he sorta tosses them like javelins but in GoW 3, he just flicks his wrist in an underhand motion), and his stronger ones are those that he fires like force lightning from his palm or he charges up for a larger 'spear' to toss. Either he tosses it or he fires it. That's it.  

Basically, what reason do you have to assume that his weakest bolt can travel ~1000 miles in under a second, but his other lightning is somehow completely different to the point of not even HAVING lightning range speed? The one who has to prove this, is you, I provided a clear cut feat, and for the rest of the situation Zeus' canonical placement as God of the Sky and Lightning as well as Occam's Razor (and I'm actually using it correctly) takes care of the rest. 

The person with the uphill task is yourself. This stance would have more weight if it was Zeus' most powerful bolt that had actual lightning level speed and thus argue we can't accurately scale down for weaker lightning, but when he's not even actually trying? That is completely different. That allows for powerscaling, and it also establishes just how good he is at controlling the particular element if he doesn't even have to try and it still has the correct properties. The other possible scenario we could have had here theoretically is Zeus' lightning having no real derivable speed showings at all, and then the possible 'magic lightning' argument could come into play or it would be handwaved. If the only kind of thing we saw all the time was Zeus' lightning bolts travel from point A to point B where its only like 30 meters or something, that would be reason for skepticism. But at the same time, one wouldn't be able to actually call them 'slow' just for the fact that through apparent time they might seem that way, as there would still be arguments to make that the energy source itself is one that is known for being fast and is thrown by someone who is very strong and thus logically should be moving fast anyway. Basically, we'd reach a stalemate where we can't call it slow because the apparent time of visuals is by itself not a strong argument for games, and we can't call it fast just because it rests on too many assumptions rather than hard facts, thus we'd basically just ignore it all together. 

As an aside for why the apparent time of the visuals is not a solid argument by itself for denying speed, its because of examples that would lead to us having to say things like Irvine's sniper bullet against Edea being multiple times slower than an actual sniper bullet (since it took a full 2 seconds to reach Edea from at best 500 feet away), or that Dante chasing after Rebellion after it catches on fire down the tower isn't mach 15-20ish just because in apparent time it took him several long seconds just to run down a portion of the tower. For these sorts of things, games just have to make concessions so that you can actually *see* that kind of stuff happening on screen, and thus apparent time by itself, is not a solid argument, one needs more information to form a proper context. It's not just games either, pretty much any moving visual medium for fiction isn't going to show things exactly for the speed they should be, for example Leslie Willis getting struck by lightning in Superman TAS and becoming Livewire. That was just natural lightning, but we still saw it travel down. Sometimes you just have to use logic.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 7, 2012)

(cypher, allow me to finish before you attempt to respond and inevitably repeat the same stuff that I already debunked.)

Cont:

But basically, for things like guns and what not, we simply do away with any notion of nitpicking in general for the sake that it's low enough and common enough to not really warrant heavy dissection, and thus we let it go under the argument of 'author's intent' being clear enough. For things like lightning, and even more extremely, lazers, we become far more scrutinizing and require more evidence because they are much higher and thus carry much heavier implications. For things like lightning or lazers, we'd need things like specific narration/statement telling us that they are the speed that one would think they are, or a specific feat involving a significant distance that either entity would cover in a realistic distance. For instance a game character shooting a lazer from one end of a room to another by itself, would not be assumed to be lightspeed. However, if there was a scene with the same character shooting that lazer to the moon in 1-2 seconds with all else being equal, then we would be able to say for sure that the lazer is lightspeed period. We have that sort of feat for the lightning in this case, as demonstrated, and it was at a completely casual level, thus covering any baseline questions. If you want to argue that his lightning attacks can range from 1000 miles per second, to say something more human scale in comprehension like...60 mph, (which would be a ridiculous 60,000 X speed differential) then you have as I said again, an extremely uphill task, because as stated again, apparent visual timing would be the ONLY possible route to coming to that conclusion, and it is, as I established, completely shaky by itself as an argument.

If you want to create a platform for plausible deniability, you are going to have to argue for a different stance like Kratos reacting to and deflecting lightning tosses is PIS (though this itself has counter-arguments as well) or something, because you aren't going to prove anything regarding the lightning itself. It has a clear cut speed feat (actually it has two), and feats have more weight than anything else here.

3. He only tosses them like javelins in God of War 2. In God of War 3, he flicks them underhanded at you, so its much quicker. Doesn't matter though. The Golden Fleece works by timing anyway by in-game descriptions. You have to activate it just before a projectile hits you. And this is never contradicted through the multiple times he has to use the fleece to continue or in cutscene usages either. Besides this, it actually has to hit the fleece, which is on his right arm. The fact that he can block Zeus' tossed lightning (and once again, to reiterate, the weak lightning he flicks at you during gameplay is EXACTLY the kind of lightning he tossed all the way 
to Egypt.) can't just be considered gameplay either, the fleece can specifically block incoming projectiles or weapons so they wouldn't have it block/reflect something that isn't supposed to be blockable/reflectable (it can block the blade of olympus itself even). And yes, Kratos did do something quantifiable to block Zeus' palm lightning, moving the blade of olympus in front of you to block incoming lightning after its fired is quantifiable.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 7, 2012)

> Lightning that acts in different forms, can be cloned, move at varying speeds, etc. He has different forms of it so why should they be considered the same as actual lightning? It's already established that the mythology itself had been changed. Why should God of War mythology be exempt from the rules where other fictions with supposed 'lightning-timing feats' aren't valid when the feats themselves contradict or cannot be quantified?



Thrown or not thrown. That's it. 'Can be cloned'? What? You're reaching for points to present your case. Zeus has the power to create dopplegangers of _himself_. What does that have to do with anything? That has nothing to do with lightning, that's simply a power in and of itself. Zeus however, (and by extension his dopplegangers) has lightning associated with himself of course, because one of his powers is being an electrokinetic, but the power to manipulate lightning has what to do with lightning itself not having lightning properties? It's a power of his. Yeah, sure, you might try to argue that the power itself is obviously not realistic because no one can control lightning in real life, but that goes for any fictional power. Does someone with pyrokinesis suddenly make fire not have the same properties it actually does in reality? What about hydrokinesis and water? Livewire is another electrokinetic, she does things that are impossible for lightning because she can manipulate it. Doesn't matter though, she's still stated to move as fast as lightning. 'move at varying speeds etc'. ...What? What the hell are you doing here? Do you realize that's a circular argument? That's what you are trying to PROVE (not exactly, rather just constantly posing questions without being able to establish answers by yourself), you can't use that as one your points. Even lightning itself can vary in speed greatly, granted, but what you are attempting to say is that for some reason Zeus' bolts against Kratos are not even lightning speed, that is a completely different type of statement. What about the myths being changed? What is relevant about that here? We do know Zeus' role as God of Gods and God of the Sky is intact, that's what matters. 

And what 'exemption' is being asked for? I don't think you've realized the actual situation here. The argument of 'magic' lightning is what is scrutinized in other forms with regards to lightning timing, basically what I covered already, without explicit feats of speed it is simply ignored. It is not called slow, nor fast, but simply ignored due to lack of more information. When it simply involves 'science', such as Flash dodging Weather Wizard's lightning bolts in Superman TAS, that's more or less accepted.  The 'magic' argument was always in a state of contention for Zeus however simply because he is the God of Lightning, and every cloud to ground bolt you see even in the backdrop that looks and acts just like the real thing (and thus is equivalent to the real thing with occam's razor unless proven otherwise), is under his control. On top of that, Zeus' own personal lightning has FEATS themselves, which are only now being realized. So basically, the only things you are even bringing up are moot points that only apply to situations without concrete feats. They are moot, because I DO have concrete speed feats. I provided TWO in fact. This is not a case of 'exemption', this is a case of proof in the face of the standard skeptical questions, rendering those skeptical questions moot because they've been answered by the proof. What 'contradictions' are we speaking of here? For Zeus' bolts? None exist, there would have to be a showing where his bolts failed to reach a similarly long distance in a short amount of time for there to say there is a contradiction(--seeing as short distance apparent visual timing isn't reliable enough to judge). Maybe you mean Kratos? No character in fiction is totally consistent, but Kratos has plenty of quantifiable reaction and speed feats, not to mention powerscaling with other immortals and demi-gods--which are the only things that really give him any pause and by God of War 2's end, only Zeus can contend with him equally. Quantification? Yes, quantification is possible, whenever a reasonable minimum can be derived, there is a quantification possible. 



> Or you know, by Occam's Razor, the gods themselves from what they've shown are not as controlling of their element as we're led to believe. Or should you be reminded of the less than stellar performance of other gods in their respective elements like Helios and the Sun? Yeah, their sun already isn't on the same level as the real sun. So why assume their lightning is now the same?



What? You disregarded Occam's Razor the whole way through this argument, how can you now claim to use it? Your use of it is questionable too. 

Oh what performance(s) am I forgetting? The fact that the sun completely DISAPPEARED without Helios? Yeah, that certainly shows a lack of control. Or, how about, when the entire world got flooded to the point where only really tall mountain peaks were left visible when Poseidon died? Or all the souls of the dead wandering free out of the underworld after Hades died? Or all the remaining plants withering after Hera died? And Zeus' powers are such that he has control over all of those, as he said to Kratos while looking out on the horizon before their second round, 'Such chaos, I will have much to do after I kill you.'  On top of that, I've already told you and shown you that Zeus can alter weather patterns simply as a consequence of breathing as well. That is a very casual level of control, to the point that its more or less involuntary. 

Anyway, regardless of how valid the sun argument was, I could've just as easily said that Occam's Razor would deem that the sun and lightning are not related whatsoever, and then by the same type of argument you posed with the sun, I could say that Fire and Water still have the same basic properties so why wouldn't Lightning? Afterall, by the typical trope usage those three actually would be termed as 'elements'. 

Reviewing, Zeus' personal lightning have actual lightning range speed feats, that's feats as in plural, and have even demonstrated the same end-result properties (E.G. the molten rock and fused sand from when he threw a bolt near Ares in the Egyptian Desert). On top of this, Zeus' personal lightning is also far more powerful than regular lightning, seeing as regular lightning wouldn't even split a boulder in two. Clearly, if one used Occam's Razor more completely, in light of everything else that has been demonstrated, Zeus doesn't use the 'actual' lightning that goes on in the background against Kratos because his personally generated lightning is clearly superior.

I given two speed feats now. Two. For Zeus' personal lightning. I've shown that it has the same properties when striking a surface too. On top of an assortment of other stuff at least tangentially related to the conversation You brought only a moot skeptics stance, moot because it applies only to situations without feats. Sorry, but that is not sufficient. 



There, now I'm finished. Don't know how many posts that ended up being.

edit: 5 posts it was.


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 7, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> > 1. Sure. Not an issue at all. The distance between the actual Mount Olympus and say, Cairo, Egypt, a north eastern city (arbitrarily chosen location), is about 1000 miles. Typical lightning bolt travels about 39 miles per second according to wiki.
> >
> > Meaning, a typical lightning bolt could travel from Mount Olympus to Cairo in about 25 seconds. Now, Zeus' bolt was stated to reach egypt in an instant, and an instant most definitely denotes less than a second. How do we know this? Other than the logic of recalling the basic definition of instant, its because the book uses the word second(s) as a measure of time in other instances. So most definitely there was meant to be a distinction in how quick it happened versus the word second, and thus instant was used. However we could ignore the book's wording and simply go with on full 'second' for a more conservative minium, which would still leave it at greatly above the average stroke of lightning speedwise.
> 
> ...


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## BenTennyson (Feb 7, 2012)

Cypher0120 said:


> AKA: Visuals from an obvious gameplay mechanic that doesn't actually show any relevant reaction time considering all Kratos was doing in the middle of said QTE was just pushing back. No reacting to a change in position or anything of the sort. Try again.



You don't even know what a gameplay mechanic is, idiot. 

A non-optional QTE is not a gameplay mechanic.

Irrelevant wording. Kratos blocked after it was fired. He was not blocking before hand, thus we don't assume about what's not there. 




Cypher0120 said:


> The speed of the lightning here isn't the issue. It's the fact that Ares has shown no actual reaction to it at all regardless of the distance it was. Even the excerpt you showed had Zeus needing to gather energy first and foremost before flicking it.



Already addressed.

And what? What the hell are you even attempt to say? Gather energy? DEAR GOD. He formed it in his palm, like he always does, and throws it. You don't even know what you are attempting to even get at anymore. 



> No, it fucking isn't. There are different types each with different visual cues that act in different ways. Don't ignore that. They range from lightning spheres to the lightning in the novel. They don't share the same shape. They only share purpose in the concept of being an offensive ability, and the source proves jack shit about how each type actually acts. You can't make the assumption that they're all the same speed.



HIS WEAKEST FUCKING LIGHTNING IS BEYOND AVERAGE LIGHTNING SPEED FOOL. I don't have to do a damn thing. You do. Your claims are obsolete, for situations where one would NOT have a speed feat. Occam's Razor takes care of the rest. I provided two speed feats for his lightning. You are providing nothing but crying.



> Yes, you do. Why exactly are you assuming that that was his weakest form of lightning? Regardless of the differences in GoW 2 or 3, they still show to move a lot slower than any other burst of lightning he displayed. Nothing to suggest difficulty in any reaction to it.



I don't have to assume anything, you're just being obtuse for the sake of it now. It was all stated there. a 'small' sphere of energy. that was tossed as if he was shooing a fly away. That is the same type of lightning he throws at Kratos.  Gameplay visual speed is irrelevant, as are short range distance timing, as they have to be seen. You are using circular logic again, 'they are slow because they are slow'. You are simply repeating yourself, you have nothing, whereas I have feats.



> Because each attack has different speeds. What, are you blind? The videos are already up, I didn't have to provide them. It's clear over there that nearly every single attack Zeus used offensively at that range is telegraphed. Reaction time there is much lower than you would have others believe.



Circular argument. Telegraphed is a useless word again. Equals in reaction time, reaction comes after it was fired, not before. Stop this.



> Stop bombarding with useless information. You claimed that visuals are not a solid argument? Well gee, guess what your argument was in that video when Kratos supposedly raised the Blade of Olympus in that QTE? You can't deny the fact that the lightning Zeus uses still has different speeds and the projectiles he uses are the slowest ones.



I claimed that short range visual timing of an object is not reliable. 

What does that have to do with the fact that within the visuals Kratos put up his sword to block the lightning AFTER, not before, AFTER it was fired? 
You are struggling.



> Kratos reacting to the slowest ones are not the same as you're assumption of Kratos reacting to the one shown in the novel.



Kratos reacts to the same lightning that Zeus throws at Ares.



> You supplied the speed of one particular type of attack that was meant to catch Ares' attention. Whoop-de-fucking do. Even in the novel, he has visual cues when using the lightning. Reacting to the movements of something easily aim-dodged is not a show of reaction time.



What you are driving at, is still completely unknown. What is this 'visual cue' stuff you are even arguing about? Complete red herring.Again, the main point you are driving at is for some reason that some of Zeus' lightning is not lightning speed. That requires proof. And short range apparent visual timing is the ONLY argument you could have, and that, as established already, is not proof.;

You need to prove how Zeus' weakest lightning can be well above lightning level speed, and others thousands of times slower. Do it.

Two speed feats, and showing it has the same strike properties with the molten rock and fused sand. Looks like I have actual proof for my side whereas you still have...nothing.


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 7, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Thrown or not thrown. That's it. 'Can be cloned'? What? You're reaching for points to present your case. Zeus has the power to create dopplegangers of _himself_. What does that have to do with anything? That has nothing to do with lightning, that's simply a power in and of itself. Zeus however, (and by extension his dopplegangers) has lightning associated with himself of course, because one of his powers is being an electrokinetic, but the power to manipulate lightning has what to do with lightning itself not having lightning properties? It's a power of his. Yeah, sure, you might try to argue that the power itself is obviously not realistic because no one can control lightning in real life, but that goes for any fictional power. Does someone with pyrokinesis suddenly make fire not have the same properties it actually does in reality? What about hydrokinesis and water? Livewire is another electrokinetic, she does things that are impossible for lightning because she can manipulate it. Doesn't matter though, she's still stated to move as fast as lightning. 'move at varying speeds etc'. ...What? What the hell are you doing here? Do you realize that's a circular argument? That's what you are trying to PROVE (not exactly, rather just constantly posing questions without being able to establish answers by yourself), you can't use that as one your points. Even lightning itself can vary in speed greatly, granted, but what you are attempting to say is that for some reason Zeus' bolts against Kratos are not even lightning speed, that is a completely different type of statement. What about the myths being changed? What is relevant about that here? We do know Zeus' role as God of Gods and God of the Sky is intact, that's what matters.



Well what the fuck do you think is happening when the lightning moves slowly, changes, direction, and doesn't act like a measurable bolt of lightning? AKA: Fundamentally different than any calculation you may claim that lightning has. This isn't the same as living lightning, it's the fact that the varying uses Zeus has with his lightning can be compared with each other. Some move faster, some move slower. And the slower ones are the ones you're wanking up.



> And what 'exemption' is being asked for? I don't think you've realized the actual situation here. The argument of 'magic' lightning is what is scrutinized in other forms with regards to lightning timing, basically what I covered already, without explicit feats of speed it is simply ignored. It is not called slow, nor fast, but simply ignored due to lack of more information. When it simply involves 'science', such as Flash dodging Weather Wizard's lightning bolts in Superman TAS, that's more or less accepted.  The 'magic' argument was always in a state of contention for Zeus however simply because he is the God of Lightning, and every cloud to ground bolt you see even in the backdrop that looks and acts just like the real thing (and thus is equivalent to the real thing with occam's razor unless proven otherwise), is under his control. On top of that, Zeus' own personal lightning has FEATS themselves, which are only now being realized. So basically, the only things you are even bringing up are moot points that only apply to situations without concrete feats. They are moot, because I DO have concrete speed feats. I provided TWO in fact. This is not a case of 'exemption', this is a case of proof in the face of the standard skeptical questions, rendering those skeptical questions moot because they've been answered by the proof. What 'contradictions' are we speaking of here? For Zeus' bolts? None exist, there would have to be a showing where his bolts failed to reach a similarly long distance in a short amount of time for there to say there is a contradiction(--seeing as short distance apparent visual timing isn't reliable enough to judge). Maybe you mean Kratos? No character in fiction is totally consistent, but Kratos has plenty of quantifiable reaction and speed feats, not to mention powerscaling with other immortals and demi-gods--which are the only things that really give him any pause and by God of War 2's end, only Zeus can contend with him equally. Quantification? Yes, quantification is possible, whenever a reasonable minimum can be derived, there is a quantification possible.



You didn't provide anything useable. You only showed one scene of Kratos supposedly blocking in a QTE. You failed to show something less vague of Kratos doing something similar with his reactions, forgetting to take into account that he has been surprised




> What? You disregarded Occam's Razor the whole way through this argument, how can you now claim to use it? Your use of it is questionable too.



You assumed Kratos had hypersonic reactions to attacks that are shown to be aimdodged. Yeah, think about it.



> Oh what performance(s) am I forgetting? The fact that the sun completely DISAPPEARED without Helios? Yeah, that certainly shows a lack of control. Or, how about, when the entire world got flooded to the point where only really tall mountain peaks were left visible when Poseidon died? Or all the souls of the dead wandering free out of the underworld after Hades died? Or all the remaining plants withering after Hera died? And Zeus' powers are such that he has control over all of those, as he said to Kratos while looking out on the horizon before their second round, 'Such chaos, I will have much to do after I kill you.'  On top of that, I've already told you and shown you that Zeus can alter weather patterns simply as a consequence of breathing as well. That is a very casual level of control, to the point that its more or less involuntary.



The sun completely disappeared? Oops, guess that means the world should have become very cold within a few minutes. Yet... humanity at the end is still surviving with 'Hope.' His control over any actual sun is debateable considering how different it is from reality already. Every other God's control over their respective elements, I'll give you that. This does not mean they are in any way exactly the same as everything else in nature considering how each God doesn't even show the ability to fully control their so-called respective powers.



> Anyway, regardless of how valid the sun argument was, I could've just as easily said that Occam's Razor would deem that the sun and lightning are not related whatsoever, and then by the same type of argument you posed with the sun, I could say that Fire and Water still have the same basic properties so why wouldn't Lightning? Afterall, by the typical trope usage those three actually would be termed as 'elements'.



Each element possessing different properties. Your point?



> Reviewing, Zeus' personal lightning have actual lightning range speed feats, that's feats as in plural, and have even demonstrated the same end-result properties (E.G. the molten rock and fused sand from when he threw a bolt near Ares in the Egyptian Desert). On top of this, Zeus' personal lightning is also far more powerful than regular lightning, seeing as regular lightning wouldn't even split a boulder in two. Clearly, if one used Occam's Razor more completely, in light of everything else that has been demonstrated, Zeus doesn't use the 'actual' lightning that goes on in the background against Kratos because his personally generated lightning is clearly superior.



Which of Zeus' personal lightning are you using again? Oh right, not the one used against Kratos that contradicts the feat you presented in the novel, and you still haven't adressed the issue of nearly all his attacks are being telegraphed easily enough that a reaction feat from that is questionable.



> I given two speed feats now. Two. For Zeus' personal lightning. I've shown that it has the same properties when striking a surface too. On top of an assortment of other stuff at least tangentially related to the conversation You brought only a moot skeptics stance, moot because it applies only to situations without feats. Sorry, but that is not sufficient.



No, you showed one type of his personal lightning that struck a surface. You didn't adress the fact that he has various personal uses for lightning that each act fundamentally different from each other and assumed they're all the same. Your explanation is not sufficient enough.

[/QUOTE]


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 7, 2012)

Back to the basics.

1. You are using the feats of other characters here instead of Kratos.

2. Kratos has never shown reaction on the same level as the gods in the novel other than your insistance of the QTE and the rest of Zeus' attacks that each show a difference between them.

3. Are we not talking about reaction time? You claim that Kratos actually dodges the lightning after it's been shown Zeus had to throw it or flick it physically? You're only using gameplay mechanics to show Kratos blocking attacks like that. Nowhere outside it, taking into account the mandatory QTE, has Kratos been shown to do anything on that same level.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 7, 2012)

Cypher0120 said:


> Well what the fuck do you think is happening when the lightning moves slowly, changes, direction, and doesn't act like a measurable bolt of lightning? AKA: Fundamentally different than any calculation you may claim that lightning has. This isn't the same as living lightning, it's the fact that the varying uses Zeus has with his lightning can be compared with each other. Some move faster, some move slower. And the slower ones are the ones you're wanking up.



This is a jumbled mess that I can't decipher. 

You provided no argument whatsoever. Electrokinetic manipulating lightning, Electrokinetic's lightning still ends up showing lightning speed on seperated occasion = all points moot. Still using circular arguments, my dear idiot.




> You didn't provide anything useable. You only showed one scene of Kratos supposedly blocking in a QTE. You failed to show something less vague of Kratos doing something similar with his reactions, forgetting to take into account that he has been surprised



At least NOW you are addressing Kratos himself. Since you can't actually argue with the lightning speed feats themselves. 

I provided that Kratos blocked force lightning, and that he can deflect Zeus 'orb' lightning (he pretty much has to get past the fight), and his orb lightning is exactly the same that he used against Ares. Not to mention, I provided powerscaling related quotes with Ares and Artemis, both of whom Kratos is easily above in God of War 3.

Surprised? OOOH. SURPRISED. Equivalent to blindsiding. Guess X character with speed feats is not fast since he's been hit by things with speed feats either? Think before you type. I already addressed this shit already. No character is complete consistent.




> You assumed Kratos had hypersonic reactions to attacks that are shown to be aimdodged. Yeah, think about it.



I didn't assume anything. I showed you that Kratos blocks stuff after its fired. That's not aim dodging, you don't even know the definitions of most of the terms you throw out.



> The sun completely disappeared? Oops, guess that means the world should have become very cold within a few minutes. Yet... humanity at the end is still surviving with 'Hope.' His control over any actual sun is debateable considering how different it is from reality already. Every other God's control over their respective elements, I'll give you that. This does not mean they are in any way exactly the same as everything else in nature considering how each God doesn't even show the ability to fully control their so-called respective powers.



Complete red herring is most of what I'm reading here. The sun is not equivalent to the real sun, so what, that's already been established.

Nothing is debatable, the sun could not show through without his life. 
And as predicted, you could not respond to the level of control I provided with feats, or the subsequent forming of the logic that he doesn't use the background lightning since his own is clearly superior.



> Each element possessing different properties. Your point?



You aren't particularly bright, are you? The point was if I WERE to respond to your silly sun comment. Which means you basically undermined that whole argument right here by stating each element is different. Thus how the sun being different is a reason for us to believe the lightning is somehow different (nevermind the freaking fact that it comes from the length or above, looks exactly the same, sounds exactly the same and all that with reality which accounts for occam's razor), is completely moot. Thanks for playing. 



> Which of Zeus' personal lightning are you using again? Oh right, not the one used against Kratos that contradicts the feat you presented in the novel, and you still haven't adressed the issue of nearly all his attacks are being telegraphed easily enough that a reaction feat from that is questionable.



You've yet to demonstrate how his weakest lightning can be above average lightning speed yet his stronger ones thousands of times below it. 

The lightning that he tossed from Olympus to Egypt and the lightning that he tossed from the troposphere down to Sparta. Both were tossed lightning, which is what Kratos has to react to with his fight with Zeus everytime they've fought. 

Once more, I have the concrete speed feats. You are trying to bend over backwards trying to show how they don't apply somehow now.




> No, you showed one type of his personal lightning that struck a surface. You didn't adress the fact that he has various personal uses for lightning that each act fundamentally different from each other and assumed they're all the same. Your explanation is not sufficient enough.



I showed two speed feats. Two. For tossed lightning. The lightning which is LEAST like lightning. I also showed it has the same extreme heat properties of regular lightning, despite being so unlike regular lightning. What have you done but spam vague terminology like 'behavior', 'fundamentally different' etc etc when the fact is, you can't rebuke the fact that Occam's Razor works to my favor, especially with the feats I've provided.

You, have, nothing. And are repeating yourself. 

At least change the subject to just Kratos' reactions themselves.


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## BenTennyson (Feb 7, 2012)

Cypher0120 said:


> Back to the basics.
> 
> 1. You are using the feats of other characters here instead of Kratos.



Characters that Kratos, as of God of War 3. Are comfortably above. It is called powerscaling. And it can't be called PIS either. Seeing as Kratos being the son of Zeus, is part of the reason he's so powerful.

In that game he can literally kill gods less than Zeus with his barehands.



> 2. Kratos has never shown reaction on the same level as the gods in the novel other than your insistance of the QTE and the rest of Zeus' attacks that each show a difference between them.



NOW this, we can argue about. 

Kratos has reacted to the charge of the leviathan, which is hypersonic easily by how quickly it charged up Mount Olympus.

He has beaten Gods who are hypersonic by feats.

He has gone from Underworld to the center of Olympus in a little over thirty seconds (that's several dozen miles) through a small shaft and dodged falling objects and barriers within that time. 

Crossed the lowlands fast enough that the falling rubble was falling in slow motion compared to him (consider that after about 4 seconds of falling, an object will have fallen 100 meters).

He has dodged Erinys throwing a human so fast that the human broke a stone bridge.

and more.

To accept that Kratos can react to fast things, one must first accept that he is fast at all. Which he is.



> 3. Are we not talking about reaction time? You claim that Kratos actually dodges the lightning after it's been shown Zeus had to throw it or flick it physically? You're only using gameplay mechanics to show Kratos blocking attacks like that. Nowhere outside it, taking into account the mandatory QTE, has Kratos been shown to do anything on that same level.



We are talking about reaction time now, since you realize you can't talk about the lightning itself.

I did not use gameplay mechanics anywhere. You do not understand the actual meaning of the word. in-game abilities are not as a whole, gameplay mechanics--in most instances. Gameplay mechanics are things like not being able to jump because there's no button for it, HP bars, etc etc.


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 7, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> You provided no argument whatsoever. Electrokinetic manipulating lightning, Electrokinetic's lightning still ends up showing lightning speed on seperated occasion = all points moot. Still using circular arguments, my dear idiot.
> 
> I provided that Kratos blocked force lightning, and that he can deflect Zeus 'orb' lightning (he pretty much has to get past the fight), and his orb lightning is exactly the same that he used against Ares. Not to mention, I provided powerscaling related quotes with Ares and Artemis, both of whom Kratos is easily above in God of War 3.




Electrokinetic lightning that you assumed is lightning speed yet is shown to have varying speeds yet you assumed that the one Zeus used to catch Ares' attention is the slowest one compared to the others he used against Kratos in the spur of the moment that act slower.



> Surprised? OOOH. SURPRISED. Equivalent to blindsiding. Guess X character with speed feats is not fast since he's been hit by things with speed feats either? Think before you type. I already addressed this shit already. No character is complete consistent.



A single outlier won't prove anything since the rest of the lightning used can be aimdodged easily since a physical movement accompanies each type.




> I didn't assume anything. I showed you that Kratos blocks stuff after its fired. That's not aim dodging, you don't even know the definitions of most of the terms you throw out.



Yeah, he blocks stuff after it's fired only when they move slow enough. You assumed that the lightning being used in the gameplay is the same speed as the calc you showed in the novel even though it's different. They change directions, they have different forms, they act differently. They're not all the same speed.




> Nothing is debatable, the sun could not show through without his life. And as predicted, you could not respond to the level of control I provided with feats, or the subsequent forming of the logic that he doesn't use the background lightning since his own is clearly superior.
> 
> You aren't particularly bright, are you? The point was if I WERE to respond to your silly sun comment. Which means you basically undermined that whole argument right here by stating each element is different. Thus how the sun being different is a reason for us to believe the lightning is somehow different (nevermind the freaking fact that it comes from the length or above, looks exactly the same, sounds exactly the same and all that with reality which accounts for occam's razor), is completely moot. Thanks for playing.



Uh, yeah, each element is different. They have different properties. The sun in reality behaves differently from the sun in God of War. The lightning in God of War behaves differently from any in real life, etc. You just took a single speed and claimed that was the slowest form even though it wasn't.




> The lightning that he tossed from Olympus to Egypt and the lightning that he tossed from the troposphere down to Sparta. Both were tossed lightning, which is what Kratos has to react to with his fight with Zeus everytime they've fought.
> 
> Once more, I have the concrete speed feats. You are trying to bend over backwards trying to show how they don't apply somehow now.



The lightning being tossed from Olympus to Egypt and the one to Sparta is not the same as anything he uses in a fight with Kratos. You can't make the assumption that Kratos reacted to those after they were tossed because that never happened outside gameplay. Those speed feats don't apply because no one was actively reacting to them.






> I showed two speed feats. Two. For tossed lightning. The lightning which is LEAST like lightning. I also showed it has the same extreme heat properties of regular lightning, despite being so unlike regular lightning. What have you done but spam vague terminology like 'behavior', 'fundamentally different' etc etc when the fact is, you can't rebuke the fact that Occam's Razor works to my favor, especially with the feats I've provided.
> 
> You, have, nothing. And are repeating yourself.
> 
> At least change the subject to just Kratos' reactions themselves.



You showed the speed of one type of tossed lightning, the likes of which have different speeds in the primary canon of the series. 

You still assumed they all have similar speeds even though it's shown they don't. 

You assumed that Kratos actually reacted to any of the bolts in gameplay even though he has shown any comparable feat outside of it except for one outlier that may or may not be him reacting to Zeus' fingers and statement of deciding not to play around anymore. 

The only thing mandatory about the scene was Kratos staying in one spot and trying to endure. The gameplay mechanic you showed of him suddenly raising his sword to 'block' the arc lightning was just that, a gameplay mechanic. Any other place outside that scene where Kratos shows a more concrete reaction?


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 7, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Characters that Kratos, as of God of War 3. Are comfortably above. It is called powerscaling. And it can't be called PIS either. Seeing as Kratos being the son of Zeus, is part of the reason he's so powerful.
> 
> In that game he can literally kill gods less than Zeus with his barehands.



Or it just shows how much weaker the gods actually are.



> Kratos has reacted to the charge of the leviathan, which is hypersonic easily by how quickly it charged up Mount Olympus.



Where are you assuming that the Leviathan was hypersonic. When it attacked Kratos after getting out of Ares' tomb? Because there is nothing to imply that that Leviathan was directly from the sea for a proper hypersonic calc.



> He has beaten Gods who are hypersonic by feats.



Which ones?



> He has gone from Underworld to the center of Olympus in a little over thirty seconds (that's several dozen miles) through a small shaft and dodged falling objects and barriers within that time.



Gameplay mechanics.



> Crossed the lowlands fast enough that the falling rubble was falling in slow motion compared to him (consider that after about 4 seconds of falling, an object will have fallen 100 meters).



When was this?



> He has dodged Erinys throwing a human so fast that the human broke a stone bridge.



That's not how the scene was. She threw a human, and it broke part of a stone bridge that had wooden supports. And she still had to rear back, taking her time before she actually threw it. How is that fast?




> To accept that Kratos can react to fast things, one must first accept that he is fast at all. Which he is.



Not in movement, no.



> I did not use gameplay mechanics anywhere. You do not understand the actual meaning of the word. in-game abilities are not as a whole, gameplay mechanics--in most instances. Gameplay mechanics are things like not being able to jump because there's no button for it, HP bars, etc etc.



Then you admit that said ingame abilities have discrepancies that prove a much lower showing than the high end abilities you keep using to prove your point.


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## Gomu (Feb 7, 2012)

Cypher0120 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You've made very valid, accurate points dude. You know what you're talking about and are correct. There comes a time when wanking is just wanking. The lightning used against Kratos in the scenes of GOW aren't actual lightning, they are manipulated  "magical" lightning. Which isn't real lightning. And as Cygnus said, unless you guys can come up with a feat of Kratos actually lightning timing, he ain't getting those feats, and is getting blown away by Akuma's attacks. Case and point.


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## Cypher0120 (Feb 7, 2012)

Gomu said:


> You've made very valid, accurate points dude. You know what you're talking about and are correct. There comes a time when wanking is just wanking. The lightning used against Kratos in the scenes of GOW aren't actual lightning, they are manipulated  "magical" lightning. Which isn't real lightning. And as Cygnus said, unless you guys can come up with a feat of Kratos actually lightning timing, he ain't getting those feats, and is getting blown away by Akuma's attacks. Case and point.



Uh, no they're not wanking. They've also made valid, accurate points. We just disagree on the application of gameplay mechanics and when to use the feats provided in the primary canon.

And I never claimed Akuma would be winning either. He still loses.


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## Gomu (Feb 7, 2012)

Cypher0120 said:


> Uh, no they're not wanking. They've also made valid, accurate points. We just disagree on the application of gameplay mechanics and when to use the feats provided in the primary canon.
> 
> And I never claimed Akuma would be winning either. He still loses.



On what grounds does he lose? How? The realism that again, a ki infused punch can down an Island while Kratos is only Town to City Level at best? It makes no sense. How the hell does he win this combat? Again, Akuma has Island level durability and destructive potential. Give me accounts on what Kratos can do to hurt him? His physical strength? Ki can amp physical strength and potential power, this is really stupid.


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 7, 2012)

First of all Akuma isn't strong enough to hurt Kratos that much anyway if we go by Kratos being stronger then people who can hold up continents so being dependent on this lightning timing feat for akuma to not be able to pile on attacks is going no where. Even without that feat Kratos can keep up with Poseidon who reached the bottom of mount olympus in a few seconds.

Akuma is only supersonic 
The above feat for Poseidon would make Kratos' reactions just a bit shy of hypersonic.

Pointless argument is still pointless


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## BenTennyson (Feb 7, 2012)

Gomu said:


> You've made very valid, accurate points dude. You know what you're talking about and are correct. There comes a time when wanking is just wanking. The lightning used against Kratos in the scenes of GOW aren't actual lightning, they are manipulated  "magical" lightning. Which isn't real lightning. And as Cygnus said, unless you guys can come up with a feat of Kratos actually lightning timing, he ain't getting those feats, and is getting blown away by Akuma's attacks. Case and point.



You didn't actually read everything said here, did you?

He didn't do anything but fail to address the fact that Zeus' 'magical' lightning does indeed have lightning level speed feats. Two in fact.

The general argument was at first long ago that "prove zeus' lightning has lightning speed".

That's been done now. Twice. And its been shown for the lightning that is LEAST lightning like, the tossed kind. On top of that, it was his weakest kind of lightning too that had the Mount Olympus to Egypt feat.

And now its somehow "prove the lightning Zeus specifically used against Kratos is lightning speed" --hint, most of what he used against Kratos is exactly the lightning that I detailed above.

What he has to do is somehow prove that only some of Zeus' lightning blasts are lightning level speed and some aren't. And that's not possible.

I have the feats. He doesn't. He has only moot conjecture.

Now we move on to Kratos' reactions themselves.


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## Veikuri (Feb 7, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> You do realise that all the other top-tiers of Streetfighter don't really have feats like Akuma does, only showings against Akuma, right?





> Akuma has a long history of consistently impressive feats.


They're actually not consistent if a cut scenes contradicts what happens in fights. Are we going to assume everyone in Street Fighter he fought can tank what he dishes out? If so that just makes even more inconsistency.




> He is the standard upon which all top-tiers in Streetfighter are measured. Gouken and Oro rival him, Gen could give a holding back Akuma a fight before Akuma stopped the match due to the dishonor of fighting a sick person, Akuma has beaten Bison and Seth, arguably Gill as well.


 Now pit them against Kratos and see how much of a joke what you're saying is.




> Actually, Shin Bison also has some pretty impressive feats.
> 
> So he is as strong as people make him out to be.


 You forget who is he going up against.



NMG said:


> Because Akuma doesn't lower himself for a good fight, and none of them took any prep, it's just CIS/PIS on his part.


Actually its not CIS/PIS. You don't seem to know what that is.

All of Akuma's high end feats occur when he is alone and has no one on his ass. Akuma has fought Gouken and Gen and used his strongest move on them, Shun Goku Satsu. He obviously is NOT holding back. Yet, he doesn't use any of his high end feat attacks. Why? Because they aren't going to stand there and let him do it. 




> Who said anything about him being the god? and a bit? yeah, when other people start sinking islands with punches and then go through two more power ups you can say that.


 Kratos would murder the Street Fighter cast. Akuma isn't far from his verse.



> Except these account for almost all of his feats. In hindsight you're just trying to use PIS/CIS as an argument to try and downplay him. In the end it just sounds like the ramblings of some someone who's frustrated.


Except I'm using his previous battles to gauge his strength and not going off by "he chucks island busting chops at xxxx herpderp"


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## Toriko (Feb 7, 2012)

No. 

Kratos wins, but you're just horrible.


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## Bender (Feb 7, 2012)

@ Brohan 

Horrible, terrible

But good god a thread dedicated to Kratos is wonderful


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## Kurou (Feb 7, 2012)

Veikuri said:


> -snip-




lol







> Actually its not CIS/PIS. You don't seem to know what that is.
> 
> All of Akuma's high end feats occur when he is alone and has no one on his ass. Akuma has fought Gouken and Gen and used his strongest move on them, Shun Goku Satsu. He obviously is NOT holding back. Yet, he doesn't use any of his high end feat attacks. Why? Because they aren't going to stand there and let him do it.




Gouken is just as strong as Base Gouki so lol and again, he didn't even take Gen all that seriously. AGAIN, he tends to hold back on most people in order to have a good fight. That's his entire M.O. You really are just trying to dismiss his feats which again, are consistently impressive, by saying "he didn't kill ths guy so he can't do it"




> Except I'm using his previous battles to gauge his strength and not going off by "he chucks island busting chops at xxxx herpderp"



No, you're just spouting crap


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## Veikuri (Feb 7, 2012)

> Gouken is just as strong as Base Gouki so lol and again, he didn't even take Gen all that seriously. AGAIN, he tends to hold back on most people in order to have a good fight. That's his entire M.O. You really are just trying to dismiss his feats which again, are consistently impressive, by saying "he didn't kill ths guy so he can't do it"


Scans of Akuma saying he didn't take Gen seriously or shut up. He said it himself that Gen is worthy of a death match. Why on earth would you not take someone serious and make that claim. 




> No, you're just spouting crap



Except that is Akuma's only way of dealing with Kratos.


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## ZERO PHOENIX (Feb 8, 2012)

I have never seen so much WIN in a single thread!!! GOTDAMN!!! Ben10-K is shreddin shit UP SON!!


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## eHav (Feb 8, 2012)

were the huge walls of text in page 4 really necessary to prove kratos destroys akuma with a punch? lol obd


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## NemeBro (Feb 9, 2012)

Cypher0120 said:


> Not the point. Mandatory QTE's be damned, that feat may as well be an outlier considering 1. Kratos has never done anything on the same level again and continually gets surprised by massively slower things outside of gameplay throughout the entire series. 2. He still wasn't avoiding it or reacting properly outside of an extremely vague statement of "Oh, he's blocking it, therefore he must have hypersonic reaction!" This is the time when you're using gameplay mechanics in a mandatory QTE that's questionable. You claimed, "It didn't appear to be up before the lightning was fired." That's the limitations of the gameplay engine itself that you're ignoring. Did you hear how Zeus basically stated his intention when saying, "I'm through playing with you, Kratos." and then he raised his arm above him? That's plenty of time to actually do anything. This falls into the same argument of Nami and Enel's lightning. and 3. It still isn't quantifiable.



1. Name these "massively slower things".

2. He lifted the Blade of Olympus and blocked it after it was fired. Aka, he reacted to it.

Also, "gameplay mechanics"? That word does not mean what you seem to think it means. Mandatory QTEs are not gameplay mechanics.

Limitations of the gameplay engine? You are under the impression that the engine would not be able to support Kratos lifting the Blade of Olympus before Zeus fires lightning? Hilarious, truly.

3. Zeus's lightning has been quantified on two separate occasions, once by me, once by Ben. At this point you're in denial.



> Who said I was arguing for Akuma? Akuma still loses.



Probably.



> As a matter of fact, two major ones.
> 
> 1. Instant is an extremely relative term ranging up to multiple seconds but that can be forgiven here.



I have never seen "instant" regularly used to mean more than a second, ever.



> 2. The issue is not with the lightning actually travelling. The issue here is the fact that there is nothing to show reaction to it. You measured the lightning bolt actually travelling, yet where is the measurement of Zeus having to create lightning to the physical movement of needing to aim and throw it, to when the lightning actually leaves him? That's the unquantifiable part and every other time that Zeus actually decides to throw the lightning bolt in the games, it is much slower.



So are you trolling, or are you serious? The reaction-time comes from Kratos being shown to react to the lightning, both in the gameplay, and of course in the QTE, and is now apparently supported by gods like Ares being able to dodge Zeus's lightning for two centuries. 

Also, no, Zeus has similar reaction-time to Kratos, if anything, he is faster, Kratos would have to react to the lightning itself. 

Right, let's just assume that Zeus slows down his lightning when facing Kratos in a battle to the death huh? No, not huh, fuck that noise.

[quote[Because he's being the arrogant idiot that he is. The fact that the various so-called lightning he uses range from the quickly used ball-lightning-like objects that move freakishly slow to the slower to use but more powerful zaps that can be associated with lightning as a whole have differences in speed trumps the saying of, "Why would Zeus hold back against Kratos?" Why do you think Kratos had a lot of PIS going for him?[/quote]

Blublublublubblub relying solely on the visual effects ignoring feats, yeah, no.

Zeus's lightning has been proven to be well-into the hypersonic range, to assume that he slows it down when he wants to kill Kratos is disingenuous.



> Where are you getting the impression that any of the so-called lightning attacks there aren't telegraphed? And which attack is it? The various lightning spheres that don't even move at the speed of the other types of lightning? The lightning ground pound? The lightning coming out of Zeus' hands whenever he punches that may as well only exist at the same time as said punch? The lightning clones that move even slower?



The bolts that Kratos can deflect genius. 

And they aren't very telegraphed, his just thrusts his hand forward and bam, lightning.



> His lightning projectiles either move slow when he does it quickly, or Zeus himself takes a while to charge it up to make it fast and strong that gives plenty of time to react to.



Addressed, and yeah no.

Really, this debate should have ended when Ben provided a source claiming gods can outright dodge Zeus's lightning, backed by the evidence that the lightning is not, in fact, slower than IRL lightning.



> Is there any other place that shows Kratos reacting to anything else other than lightning that support said hypersonic reaction time? No. Then there. Zeus' attacks may be lightning-based, but he himself doesn't even display movement speed on the same level to properly quantify a reaction feat considering the various usages of so-called lightning he uses, each with varying speeds.



Yes actually. Reacting to the Leviathan, reacting to Zeus who can fly beyond the clouds and over a mountain in a few seconds, IIRC Kratos also blocked an explosion from point-blank, reacting after it exploded, but Ben could probably tell you more about that.



> No, you proved how fast one certain type of a bolt of lightning is from Greece to Egypt that wasn't the same as the other variations that Zeus has shown. You haven't shown Zeus' own reaction times to things much slower than his own lightning.



Well now actually two different bolts of lightning have been shown to be well into the hypersonic range. Then there is the evidence of gods dodging said lightning, and Athena's arrows being described as swifter than lightning bolts... Yeah, your case isn't that good.

This debate is ridiculous. Zeus is the fucking god of lightning, its very existence relies upon him, entire weather systems are altered by his whim, every time lighning occurs, it is Zeus. Beyond that, Ben and I have _proven_ the speed of his lightning to be very comfortably hypersonic, beyond your average lightning bolt. Kratos can block the bolts not just in gameplay, but in a mandatory QTE, gods are outright stated to be capable of dodging the lightning for prolonged periods in the novel, and Athena's arrows are apparently faster. Your argument relies on us defying reason and believing "Well gee maybe Zeus for some asinine reason is using the really slow lightning on Kratos?" Not going to fly buddy boy, sorry.


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## NemeBro (Feb 9, 2012)

Veikuri said:


> They're actually not consistent if a cut scenes contradicts what happens in fights. Are we going to assume everyone in Street Fighter he fought can tank what he dishes out? If so that just makes even more inconsistency.



Akuma consistently holds back when fighting. Similarly, when top-tiers get feats, they are consistently shown to be more or less that high.



> Now pit them against Kratos and see how much of a joke what you're saying is.



Are you by chance, a stupid person Veikuri? You are aware that I have been supporting Kratos all thread, right?



> You forget who is he going up against.



Read above.

I may be supporting Kratos, but I am not disingenuous enough to pout and whine about Akuma's feats while doing so. 

Seriously, read the thread. 



> Actually its not CIS/PIS. You don't seem to know what that is.



Akuma willingly holding back is CIS.



> All of Akuma's high end feats occur when he is alone and has no one on his ass. Akuma has fought Gouken and Gen and used his strongest move on them, Shun Goku Satsu. He obviously is NOT holding back. Yet, he doesn't use any of his high end feat attacks. Why? Because they aren't going to stand there and let him do it.



He destroyed the island in the middle of a fight with Ryu. Why did he not stop him, if it is apparently so easy to do?

Boy, you really don't want me to search for the manga where he and Gouken leveled mountains. That would be both funny, and it would murderise your entire "argument".



> Kratos would murder the Street Fighter cast. Akuma isn't far from his verse.



The top-tiers of Streetfighter are actually pretty easily above the others in the verse.

Shin Bison was wrecking cowards and fools.



> Except I'm using his previous battles to gauge his strength and not going off by "he chucks island busting chops at xxxx herpderp"



What previous battles? What fights has he really lost at full power?


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