# Kushina Vs Hashi's wood.



## Trojan (Feb 9, 2014)

O,K people, we saw the chains ability in offensive way in the last chapter.
1

Now, we saw Kushina's chain as well able to suppress full Kurama, and even make a barrier
that made Hiruzen unable to do anything. 

1
1

So, how well do you thing Kushina can do against those jutsus. 

1- Human wood & Wood Dragon

Note: this jutsu may be smaller in size to full Kurama
1

2- Buddha. (The one used by SZ)

3-  

4- Secret Technique: Nativity of a World of Trees


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 9, 2014)

Kushina would probably do the same thing to the small Shinsuusenju and might break the Mokuryu head. Mokujin would probably win against Kushina though. 

Hotei would crush Kushina and Jukai Koutan would probably overwhelm her.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Kushina would probably do the same thing to the small Shinsuusenju and might break the Mokuryu head. Mokujin would probably win against Kushina though.
> 
> Hotei would crush Kushina and Jukai Koutan would probably overwhelm her.



- Kushina seems to have more chains the Karin though. @>@
- How can the Mokujin win?
3- As for the Hotei, what stops the chain from destroying them? They are only hands, and we already saw the chains destroys Buddha's hands.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 9, 2014)

Elia said:


> - Kushina seems to have more chains the Karin though. @>@
> - How can the Mokujin win?
> 3- As for the Hotei, what stops the chain from destroying them? They are only hands, and we already saw the chains destroys Buddha's hands.



Mokujin is bigger than the small Shinsuusenju and it and Hotei can stop a Perfect Susano'o sword. It can stop the chains. Hotei can do what Oonoki did to save A from Madara's Susano'o swords, only crushing Kushina. Hashi's Mokuton>>>>>Spiral Zetsu's Mokuton.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Mokujin is bigger than the small Shinsuusenju and it and Hotei can stop a Perfect Susano'o sword. It can stop the chains. Hotei can do what Oonoki did to save A from Madara's Susano'o swords, only crushing Kushina. Hashi's Mokuton>>>>>Spiral Zetsu's Mokuton.



Mokjin is not bigger than Kurama though, and the chains stopped Kurama, so the size is irrelevant. The chains is different than PS Sword. For example, the wooden Dragon stopped PS's sword as well, but it couldn't stop a small TBB, Kurama's claws, or Naruto's FRS. So, yeah, different jutsus = different things. U_U 

- Kushina can use the chains from under the ground as well, so if the hands tried to catch her, she can destroy them right away.

- Irrelevant, Tree's wood >>>>>> Hashi's, yet it was cut easily by some normal swords.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Feb 9, 2014)

Don't see Kushina destroying any of Hashirama's jutsu. Hashirama's capable of generating wood constructs strong enough to catch Madara's PS mountain cutting swords and block tailed beast bombs from a full powered Kurama. 

Kushina isn't generating fire power on that kind of level.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2014)

Kushina certainly performs better if she isn't fresh out of child birth, 9 months out of combat and recently stripped of the second most powerful conventional chakra battery in the verse (100% Kurama).

Half-Zetsu Obito didn't even bother moving after he was stripped of most of the Juubi's power, and Naruto instantly slipped into a coma and apparently died from being stripped of half of what Kushina was harboring within a matter of 10 minutes.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Don't see Kushina destroying any of Hashirama's jutsu. Hashirama's capable of generating wood constructs strong enough to catch Madara's PS mountain cutting swords and block tailed beast bombs from a full powered Kurama.
> 
> Kushina isn't generating fire power on that kind of level.



She already fodderized Kurama when she was almost at the gates of death.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Feb 9, 2014)

Elia said:


> She already fodderized Kurama when she was almost at the gates of death.





Restraining Kurama =/= fodderizing Kurama. She's shown nothing that suggests she can throw around fire power equal to or greater than Madara's PS swords and tailed beast bombs from a 100% Kurama.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2014)

> Restraining Kurama =/= fodderizing Kurama. She's shown nothing that suggests she can throw around fire power equal to or greater than Madara's PS swords and tailed beast bombs from a 100% Kurama.


Holding down 100% Kurama disallowing him to manifest any attempt at being a threat whatsoever isn't considered fodderizing now? 

Lol stick to DBZ pal


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Restraining Kurama =/= fodderizing Kurama. She's shown nothing that suggests she can throw around fire power equal to or greater than Madara's PS swords and tailed beast bombs from a 100% Kurama.



Kurama was helpless, dude, she could have sealed it into herself, and literally killing him afterward. As for the sword, I already explained that, Naruto's FRS is weaker than Madara's PS swords, yet it destroyed the Wooden dragons! 

anyway, I think we will agree to disagree then.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Feb 9, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Holding down 100% Kurama disallowing him to manifest any attempt at being a threat whatsoever isn't considered fodderizing now?



No, it's not. Not in my eyes anyway. It's like saying taming a tailed beast with the sharingan is fodderizing it as it no longer can act of its own free will. In that case any Uchiha with the MS can fodderize Kurama. I know you as well as Elia certainly don't share that view, so unless you're going to start acting like hypocrites then I suggest you stop acting like your opinion is any better than mine.



> Lol stick to DBZ pal



Smartass comments don't help your case.



Elia said:


> Kurama was helpless, dude, she could have sealed it into herself, and literally killing him afterward.



I've already answered this above.



> As for the sword, I already explained that, Naruto's FRS is weaker than Madara's PS swords, yet it destroyed the Wooden dragons!



You mean it destroyed wooden dragons that were much smaller than the ones he used against Madara. 



> anyway, I think we will agree to disagree then.



That's fine.


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## Turrin (Feb 9, 2014)

Kushina bound the 100% Kyuubi, therefore Kushina should be able to combat any of the Mokuton creations listed in the OP w/o much issue, as none of them are stronger than 100% Kurama. Thee only Mokuton creation Hashirama has shown that Kushina might not be able to handle is Senjutsu Shin Suusenju, however when one accounts for the fact that we've only seen what Kushina is capable of post-kyuubi extraction, the strain of which caused Naruto to faint, we must acknowledge that we've only ever seen a mere tiny fraction of Kushina's power, so she could very well be able to contended even w/ that technique.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Restraining Kurama =/= fodderizing Kurama. She's shown nothing that suggests she can throw around fire power equal to or greater than Madara's PS swords and tailed beast bombs from a 100% Kurama.


Dude the moment that Kushina had her chains around Kyuubi she had defeated it. Kyuubi was rendered completely helpless and completely at Kushina's mercy. If Kushina so wished it she could even drag Kyuubi back inside herself and seal it away. Their is no victory more decisive than that. 

The difference between MS and that is:

1. We've never even seen a pure MS user be able to actually execute the controlling ability and effectively take control of Kurama; Only Obito who has MS + Senju Powers and Madara who has EMS.
2. MS only allows the user to control Kurama for a certain period of time, after that Kurama is free to once again attack them, while Kushina can straight up finish Kyuubi by sealing it's ass back inside her

Though sure if an MS users, controlled Kurama and than used some other Jutsu to seal it, than that MS user would have beaten Kurama; but so far we've never seen anything like that from a pure MS user, so it's a moot point.

What Kushina did to Kurama is much more comparable to what Rinnegan Madara did to the Bijuu  couple of chapters, ago and I doubt anyone is doubting that Madara defeated the Bijuu in that instance.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2014)

> No, it's not. Not in my eyes anyway. It's like saying taming a tailed beast with the sharingan is fodderizing it as it no longer can act of its own free will. In that case any Uchiha with the MS can fodderize Kurama. I know you as well as Elia certainly don't share that view, so unless you're going to start acting like hypocrites then I suggest you stop acting like your opinion is any better than mine.


Yes, yes it is. 

If you're hit with Kotoamatsuki, which stops you from fighting, and in turn recruits your power for use, you are fodderized.

NBD rules dictate if you're unable to fight further you have lost the simulated bout. An example would be being warped into Obito's Kamui dimension. 

Itachi dropped Kakashi into a coma with a single Genjutsu use- FODDERIZED. 

Do you believe Madara did not fodderize Kurama? He was fucking controlling him like a puppet. He could have told him to swallow his own TBB, begin eating himself, or to sleep in order to seal his ass.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Feb 9, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes, yes it is.
> 
> If you're hit with Kotoamatsuki, which stops you from fighting, you are fodderized.
> 
> Do you believe Madara did not fodderize Kurama? He was fucking controlling him like a puppet.



Great so we can say all Uchiha with MS can fodderize Kurama. Sasuke, Itachi, Izuna, Obito, all of them!

You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, so you should stop degrading people who don't share your views. It only makes you look like a petulant child.

Either way, I'm done responding to you.



> Dude the moment that Kushina had her chains around Kyuubi she had defeated it. Kyuubi was rendered completely helpless and completely at Kushina's mercy. If Kushina so wished it she could even drag Kyuubi back inside herself and seal it away. Their is no victory more decisive than that.



And the moment an Uchiha tames Kurama with their MS it's defeated as it can no longer act of its own free will.



> 1. We've never even seen a pure MS user be able to actually execute the controlling ability and effectively take control of Kurama; Only Obito who has MS + Senju Powers and Madara who has EMS.
> 2. MS only allows the user to control Kurama for a certain period of time, after that Kurama is free to once again attack them, while Kushina can straight up finish Kyuubi by sealing it's ass back inside her



All this is irrelevant. It's specifically stated that the MS allows one to tame the Nine Tails. No other requirements are necessary. 



> Though sure if an MS users, controlled Kurama and than used some other Jutsu to seal it, than that MS user would have beaten Kurama; but so far we've never seen anything like that from a pure MS user, so it's a moot point.



We don't need to as it's been specifically stated that the MS allows one to control the fox.



> What Kushina did to Kurama is much more comparable to what Rinnegan Madara did to the Bijuu  couple of chapters, ago and I doubt anyone is doubting that Madara defeated the Bijuu in that instance.



Not in my eyes, but believe what you will. You're entitled to your opinion.


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 9, 2014)

Hashirama slaughters. His mokuton is mountain buster, Kushina isn't doing shit against a Wood Dragon that sized.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2014)

> Great so we can say all Uchiha with MS can fodderize Kurama. Sasuke, Itachi, Izuna, Obito, all of them!
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, so you should stop degrading people who don't share your views. It only makes you look like a petulant child.
> 
> Either way, I'm done responding to you.


Obito with one MS ocular did it. He has virtually no genjutsu feats outside of that. 

Regardless, I don't understand how you connected Madara's controlling of Kurama with other Uchiha. They have nothing to do with my point of Madara fodderizing Kurama. 

You don't seem to understand stopping someone's ability to fight altogether is by definition greater than destroying them, because you defeated them while they still had power without having to utilize killer intent. It's like strapping a dunce hat on them and putting them in timeout when they want to murder your ass. It suggests great superiority. In turn, recruiting their power for use is absolute degradation.

If Gai had killed Kisame he would be superior, though he decided to save him and take him prisoner; An ever greater level of superiority- Capturing an Akatsuki member over killing them. Complete fodderization.


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## Veracity (Feb 9, 2014)

Wait hold up. So you guys are seriously putting Kushina on base Hashirams level? You forreal ?


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## Enki (Feb 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Wait hold up. So you guys are seriously putting Kushina on base Hashirams level? You forreal ?



Mr. Turrin's Tier 3
1, Kushina
2. Obito (Rinnegan)
3. Nagato 
4. Kabuto (Edo Tensei Stocked)
5. Orochimaru (Edo Tensei Stocked)
6. Tobirama (Edo Tensei Stocked)
7. Naruto (KCM & KCSM)
8. Sasuke (EMS)
9. Minato (KCM)


Kushina casually pwns Base Hashinoob


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## Turrin (Feb 9, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And the moment an Uchiha tames Kurama with their MS it's defeated as it can no longer act of its own free will.
> .


This is like saying any time someone is capture in Genjutsu they are defeated. However in reality their needs to be a finishing blow to follow up on that. So an Uchiha would still need to seal Kurama after MS-controlling it to truly defeat it, otherwise they are simply holding it at bay for however long they can maintain their control.



> All this is irrelevant. It's specifically stated that the MS allows one to tame the Nine Tails. No other requirements are necessary.
> 
> We don't need to as it's been specifically stated that the MS allows one to control the fox.


Sure MS grants the ability to control the Nine-Tails, but simply granting an ability doesn't mean 

A) That every MS users will advanced to the point of MS mastery where they can use the ability. Let's remember that MS granted Sasuke the ability to use Enton, Amaterasu, and Stage 4 Susano'o, but he had to undergo training to be able to utilize each one of those abilities. So far we've yet to see any pure MS users demonstrate mastery over the Kurama controlling ability. We've only seen Obito (trained by Madara, MS, and Senju DNA) &  Madara (He's Madara and had EMS), commanding mastery over that skill. Saying any MS user can do it, is essentially the same argument people used to have in regards to MS Sasuke, that he'd be able to immediately use 2 MS and Stage 4 Susano'o, which was proved very faulty

Edit: In-fact given J-man and Toad Scrolls convo it's heavily implied that since Madara, Obito was thee only Uchiha that has ever manage to exercise said ability to control Kurama.

B) That having the ability means the Uchiha in question will be able to execute the ability against the almighty Kurama. A Kunai gives Konohamaru the ability to kill Minato, but the chances of Konohamaru landing that Kunai in a vital organ of Minato's are next to non-existent. Will random MS wielding Uchiha be able to land the control ability on Kurama before being decimated by Kurama. IDK, as that depends on how the ability manifests which is unclear. If it requires eye contact, Kurama could very well decimate an MS wielder before they cast the ability on him.



> Not in my eyes, but believe what you will. You're entitled to your opinion.


Sorry, but this make zero sense to me. Madara literally did the same exact thing Kushina could have done to the Kyuubi, except Kushina would have sealed Kyuubi inside herself, rather than in GM. That is the only difference, yet your telling me these things aren't comparable? In-fact the strength of 50% Kurama + other Bijuu is probably at best equal to 100% Kurama, given that the chakra of the other 8 Bijuu was required to balance out just 50% Kurama according to Itachi. Therefore 8 Bijuu = 50% Kurama + 50% Kurama = roughly 100% Kurama. So Kushina probably could have literally done the same exact feat as Madara, except dragged the Bijuu into herself instead of GM.



Likes boss said:


> Wait hold up. So you guys are seriously putting Kushina on base Hashirams level? You forreal ?


Most likely she is at least that strong. Kushina weakened to an insane extent was able to defeat 100% Kurama and that is a power on the level of Base Hashirama. Karin with vastly less impressive skills to heavily weakened Kushina was able to combat Base Hashirama's strongest Mokuton technique (Shin Suusenju) to a certain extent, so it's very like Kushina could successfully take on Base Hashirama's Mokuton. Kushina was also stated to be stronger than KCM Naruto and compared to a BSM Naruto. The sky is literally the limit w/ her power right now.



Enki said:


> Mr. Turrin's Tier 3
> 1, Kushina
> 2. Obito (Rinnegan)
> 3. Nagato
> ...


Instead of trolling, why don't you actually address what the manga cannon has indicated about Kushina


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## Veracity (Feb 9, 2014)

Enki said:


> Mr. Turrin's Tier 3
> 1, Kushina
> 2. Obito (Rinnegan)
> 3. Nagato
> ...



Are you fucking kidding me ? 

Kushina superior to a Edo stocked Tobirama , KCM Minato, KCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke.?   
 

That's truly laughable.

I guess this thread backfired on Elia, because now Kushina can beat base Minato.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Feb 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is like saying any time someone is capture in Genjutsu they are defeated. However in reality their needs to be a finishing blow to follow up on that. So an Uchiha would still need to seal Kurama after MS-controlling it to truly defeat it, otherwise they are simply *holding it at bay *for however long they can maintain their control.



Yes just like Kushina did.  She didn't defeat it seeing as how she wouldn't of been able to keep the fox restrained forever, which was my point in the first place. 



> A) That every MS users will advanced to the point of MS mastery where they can use the ability. Let's remember that MS granted Sasuke the ability to use Enton, Amaterasu, and Stage 4 Susano'o, but he had to undergo training to be able to utilize each one of those abilities. So far we've yet to see any pure MS users demonstrate mastery over the Kurama controlling ability. We've only seen Obito (trained by Madara, MS, and Senju DNA) &  Madara (He's Madara and had EMS), commanding mastery over that skill. Saying any MS user can do it, is essentially the same argument people used to have in regards to MS Sasuke, that he'd be able to immediately use 2 MS and Stage 4 Susano'o, which was proved very faulty
> 
> B) That having the ability means the Uchiha in question will be able to execute the ability against the almighty Kurama. A Kunai gives Konohamaru the ability to kill Minato, but the chances of Konohamaru landing that Kunai in a vital organ of Minato's are next to non-existent. Will random MS wielding Uchiha be able to land the control ability on Kurama before being decimated by Kurama. IDK, as that depends on how the ability manifests which is unclear. If it requires eye contact, Kurama could very well decimate an MS wielder before they cast the ability on him.



And your point is moot as all MS users in the series have mastery over their MS. Facts are that the MS allows one to control Kurama. Period. There's no denying it as it's a factual statement, so yes, Madara, Izuna, Sasuke, Obito and Itachi can all control the fox.



> Sorry, but this make zero sense to me. Madara literally did the same exact thing Kushina could have done to the Kyuubi, except Kushina would have sealed Kyuubi inside herself, rather than in GM. That is the only difference, yet your telling me these things aren't comparable? In-fact the strength of 50% Kurama + other Bijuu is probably at best equal to 100% Kurama, given that the chakra of the other 8 Bijuu was required to balance out just 50% Kurama according to Itachi. Therefore 8 Bijuu = 50% Kurama + 50% Kurama = roughly 100% Kurama. So Kushina probably could have literally done the same exact feat as Madara, except dragged the Bijuu into herself instead of GM.



And as I've said, your opinion is your opinion, My opinion is mine. Deal with it. 

I'm done with this debate.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Are you fucking kidding me ?
> 
> Kushina superior to a Edo stocked Tobirama , KCM Minato, KCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke.?
> 
> ...



lol, even though Minato is stronger than Kushina, but it does not matter I love that family. 
At least Kushina's chains are strong, she also can seal Kurama by herself, unlike Hashi who needed Mito's help.


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## Turrin (Feb 9, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Yes just like Kushina did.  She didn't defeat it seeing as how she wouldn't of been able to keep the fox restrained forever, which was my point in the first place.


Actually she could have sealed it inside of herself, something MS users can't do. 




> And your point is moot as all MS users in the series have mastery over their MS. Facts are that the MS allows one to control Kurama. Period. There's no denying it as it's a factual statement, so yes, Madara, Izuna, Sasuke, Obito and Itachi can all control the fox.


I challenge you to show me the panel of Izuna, Sasuke, or Itachi demonstrating mastery of the MS ability to control the fox. 

I challenge you to show me where it's stated that having such an ability means that every Uchiha will be able to execute that ability on the Fox, before the Fox kills them.



> And as I've said, your opinion is your opinion, My opinion is mine. Deal with it.
> 
> I'm done with this debate.


I just want you to know your opinion is not factually correct tho. K thx bye.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2014)

Controlling Kurama and summoning it needs a huge chakra as stated by Jiraiya. 
itachi, sasuke..etc do not have enough chakra for that as far as I remember. @>@


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 9, 2014)

If Karen can break the tiny Bhudda, so can Kushina, only with 1000x less effort, and 1000x better.  _Probably._  We're only guessing at her power, but obviously it surpasses everyone and everything we've seen without question because .

Her chains can probably tie up up and restrict the dragon, and then punch through it, as well as tear up Human.  The hands were actually cut through by PF slash, it's just the first time Hashirama performed a blade catch with them, because he can read the swing of PS slashes and time his jutsu to grab it mid swing.  Beast, but not something she shouldn't be able to handle or escape.

Giant Bhudda probably overwhelms her, because she can't spam enough anything to counter them all, even if she can break some.

Base Kushina destroys it with taijutsu by being all 

I don't know what the last jutsu listed is.


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## Fiiction (Feb 9, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> No, it's not. Not in my eyes anyway. It's like saying taming a tailed beast with the sharingan is fodderizing it as it no longer can act of its own free will. In that case any Uchiha with the MS can fodderize Kurama. I know you as well as Elia certainly don't share that view, so unless you're going to start acting like hypocrites then I suggest you stop acting like your opinion is any better than mine..



Yes, it is fodderzing. taming something, beating it, controlling it with ease is fodderzing.


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## Fiiction (Feb 9, 2014)

Elia said:


> Controlling Kurama and summoning it needs a huge chakra as stated by Jiraiya.
> itachi, sasuke..etc do not have enough chakra for that as far as I remember. @>@



Itachi hell no, but Sasuke can pull it off. I mean come on he can spam amaterasu and susanoo like it's nothing.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't know what the last jutsu listed is.







Fiiction said:


> Itachi hell no, but Sasuke can pull it off. I mean come on he can spam amaterasu and susanoo like it's nothing.



he may be able to do it with EMS, but I don't see him doing that with MS only.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Wait hold up. So you guys are seriously putting Kushina on base Hashirams level? You forreal ?





Enki said:


> Mr. Turrin's Tier 3
> 1, Kushina
> 2. Obito (Rinnegan)
> 3. Nagato
> ...


Lovely, one sentence posters. Just what the wankdome needs!


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## Fiiction (Feb 9, 2014)

Elia said:


> he may be able to do it with EMS, but I don't see him doing that with MS only.



Yeah I agree with that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Wait hold up. So you guys are seriously putting Kushina on base Hashirams level? You forreal ?



That she can destroy standing mokuton structures doesn't mean she can defeat Hashirama in an actual fight.  There are a lot more things to consider in that case.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Jagger (Feb 9, 2014)

1. Kurama isn't Hashirama, for God's sake. It's just like the mini-Shinsuusenju isn't Itachi. Even if the chains restrained such big targets, it wouldn't do the same with him. Some abilities are meant for specific targets.

2. Hiruzen wasn't able to do anything? Yeah, because Hiruzen's skills are rather suited for those kind of situations or can bypass any kind of defense.

3. That said, the Wooden Dragon will probably lose. It's smaller than Hashirama's other techniques (like the chains, its meant to restrain a big target). She probably loses to the other ones.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2014)

> 1. Kurama isn't Hashirama, for God's sake. It's just like the mini-Shinsuusenju isn't Itachi. Even if the chains restrained such big targets, it wouldn't do the same with him. Some abilities are meant for specific targets.


No, he's significantly larger, faster and physically stronger than him.

I'm not understanding how blitzing and retraining an entity the size of a skyscraper is less impressive than say, a human being. 

The chains have to stretch further to encompass the target (Kurama) which, in one step, can travel a quarter mile. The chains then have to be strong enough to retrain the target (Kurama being arguably the strongest entity in the manga bar Juubi). The chains then have to be fast enough to capture the target before it reacts and counters, blitzing 100% Kurama without a counter attack at all is something few can accomplish- this includes Hashirama who's wooden dragon was shit through with a TBB.  

So no, being a human does not make you immune to this technique in the least bit. It actually makes you more vulnerable to it because you're smaller meaning a single chain can grapple you, you're less powerful so you can't break out, and slower than something that is 100x your size, thus can cover 100x the distance you can in a footstep. 

Just imagine 100% Kurama running. Holy fuck. 



> 2. Hiruzen wasn't able to do anything? Yeah, because Hiruzen's skills are rather suited for those kind of situations or can bypass any kind of defense.


Sarcasm? :blindcry


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## Jagger (Feb 9, 2014)

Let's put things from another perspective.

Let's say I want to catch a Drosophila Melanogaster (basically, a fly, I just wanted to sound cool ) using a net while I want to catch a cat using the same kind of net. Which one will be more easy to catch? The answer is probably the cat. What if the net's holes are big enough for the fly to escape while the cat is too big to do that? Not to mention the fly can easily avoid being caught by the net or can escape out of my sight due its size while a cat can't.

Making you human-sized isn't going to make you immune to the technique, I'm aware of that. However, with the right speed and reflexes, it can make you easier escape the technique. 

BM Naruto in his giant chakra form was easily caught by Madara's wooden dragon, but he lol'd at it (not exactly) the moment he turned it off.


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## ThunderCunt (Feb 9, 2014)

Hashi's wood is definitely stronger.


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## Ghost (Feb 10, 2014)

Kushina is nowhere near the level of base Hashirama. The gap between her and Udon is smaller.


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## rubberguy (Feb 10, 2014)

This is not a fight against hashirama ppl, this just her chains vs his woods ppl.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 10, 2014)

If 14 year old Obito can control Kurama, Itachi and Sasuke can.



Elia said:


> Mokjin is not bigger than Kurama though, and the chains stopped Kurama, so the size is irrelevant. The chains is different than PS Sword. For example, the wooden Dragon stopped PS's sword as well, but it couldn't stop a small TBB, Kurama's claws, or Naruto's FRS. So, yeah, different jutsus = different things. U_U
> 
> - Kushina can use the chains from under the ground as well, so if the hands tried to catch her, she can destroy them right away.
> 
> - Irrelevant, Tree's wood >>>>>> Hashi's, yet it was cut easily by some normal swords.



Where did Mokuryu stop PS sword? The only time it has legit been stopped was by Hotei iirc, which can be done by Mokujin. Not Mokuryu. Mokuton can grab chains. It's literally as simple as that. Hotei can crush Kushina's body from below her. Uh, no Hashi's Mokuton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tree. Hell, Yamato's Mokuton>>>>tree.


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## Trojan (Feb 10, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> If 14 year old Obito can control Kurama, Itachi and Sasuke can.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did Mokuryu stop PS sword? The only time it has legit been stopped was by Hotei iirc, which can be done by Mokujin. Not Mokuryu. Mokuton can grab chains. It's literally as simple as that. Hotei can crush Kushina's body from below her. Uh, no Hashi's Mokuton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tree. Hell, Yamato's Mokuton>>>>tree.



- lol, says who? 
- summons
Last panel. 

- we have already seen the chains destroying the wood, what so hard about that? 
- kushinas chain can attack from below as well. 
- Stop wanking hashi, he is no where as strong as the tree! Not even close.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 10, 2014)

Elia said:


> - lol, says who?
> - summons
> Last panel.
> 
> ...



Context is everything, Elia. summons

You can clearly see that Madara was only using a regular Susano'o sword before he leveled up to PS. And in almost a Food Cart Destroyer type of manner, both PS and Mokujin crushed Juubi fodder XD. 

The chains destroyed Mokuton hands yes. So has the Perfect Susano'o sword. But depending on how Hashi manipulates Mokuton, it can either catch a Perfect Susano'o sword or get sliced in half by it. A Bijudama can destroy Mokuton, but it can also be caught by it as well. So just like the chains can destroy Mokuton, Mokuton can also catch the chains, if Hashirama manipulates Hotei or Mokuton correctly. 

I thought you were talking about regular trees at first. My bad. Didn't realize you meant the Shinju.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2014)

There is something about that title...


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## Enki (Feb 10, 2014)

Elia said:


> - summons
> Last panel.



Dude, that was a V3 sword. Notice the size (V4 is way bigger and slightly different than that and PS hasn't a kris, rather two big-ass katanas). And in the next panel it shows V3 still visible and V4 activating (top left panel), then stabilizing (big last panel) without his sword in the primary hands but in the other wing-like ones.


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## Bonly (Feb 10, 2014)

Kushina can't handle Hashi's wood. Hashi's wood is too thick, to long, to strong, to big, and to powerful, Hashi's wood is gonna completely wreck Kushina.


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## Kyu (Feb 10, 2014)

Took 3 pages for sexual insinuations to be made.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is like saying any time someone is capture in Genjutsu they are defeated. However in reality their needs to be a finishing blow to follow up on that. So an Uchiha would still need to seal Kurama after MS-controlling it to truly defeat it, otherwise they are simply holding it at bay for however long they can maintain their control.
> 
> 
> Sure MS grants the ability to control the Nine-Tails, but simply granting an ability doesn't mean
> ...



Considering that Madara and Obito can seal Juubi inside themselves it would be hardly surprising if they could seal Kurama(or any other bijuu) too.

Are you arguing that Kushina even without being a Kurama Jin is still at the very least EQUAL to one eyed Madara who is stronger than any character in the manga not counting Juubito and Madara's current JJ self? That sounds ridiculous...especially when Kushina had no hype like Minato as to be called greatest hokage/having unrivaled strength/only Naruto can surpass him or Hashi whose power was called to be fairy tale material/ God of Shinobi/ the only shinobi in history who can defeat Madara, etc. Kushina both lacks feats and hype comparable to those two in order to even approach one eyed Madara level.

In fact that is like arguing that MS Sasuke is equal to EMS Madara since their best jutsu is Susanoo and Sasuke's chakra strength was stated to be equal to Madara's.

Kimimaro and Itachi were also both greatly weakened by their illness...does it mean that the former was as strong/stronger than Oro in his healthy state and Itachi's complete Susanoo would be MUCH stronger if he wasn't sick? perhaps even on the same level as Madara's PS? For all we know Kushina's chains were just as strong when she was dying as Itachi's Susanoo was when he was dying too. Or Nagato's RT being no less effective due to him coughing blood due to exhaustion. Determinators are just as strong when they approach death and are fueled by WoF than when they are healthy.

I do not see how Minato could become a hokage if his wife was stronger than even his current BM self. It makes no sense when it comes to portrayal. And Naruto saying that he wants to be stronger than her means nothing as he never knew how strong she truly is as even in her flashback she didn't have a proper fight.

IMO Kushina is AT BEST Nagato level. That is when she still had Kurama and is at her "healthiest".

Otherwise we might as well make the unknown Uzumaki clan leader as Rikudou level or Hiruzen's dad as above Juubi level if they show any jutsu that is capable of defeating a kage level opponent.

If you hype Kushina so much due to Karin's feat then you might as well put Karin at BM Naruto level since her chains were owning a construct whose power may equal 100% Kurama and had to be interrupted by Spiral shortly after activating it. For all we know she could destroy it shortly enough...if we keep with speculations as you do for Kushina. Karin was even called 'The strongest kunoichi" on one cover which still exceeds any hype comment that Kushina got anyway...


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## Turrin (Feb 11, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Considering that Madara and Obito can seal Juubi inside themselves it would be hardly surprising if they could seal Kurama(or any other bijuu) too.
> .


Rinnegan Obito and Rinnegan Madara, can do it. Not sure about MS Obito and EMS Madara.



> Are you arguing that Kushina even without being a Kurama Jin is still at the very least EQUAL to one eyed Madara who is stronger than any character in the manga not counting Juubito and Madara's current JJ self?


No i'm saying in terms of sealing the Bijuu & Chakra Chains she's just as good as RT Madara. Obviously RT MAdara has other feats he can fall back on besides GM+Chakra Chains attacks, while Non-Kurama Jin Kushina does not have much beyond her Chain abilities. Now obviously she does have more than that, having taught Minato all the Fuuinjutsu he knows and such, but it's unlikely that is as good as the other shit RT Madara had.



> That sounds ridiculous...especially when Kushina had no hype like Minato as to be called greatest hokage/having unrivaled strength/only Naruto can surpass him or Hashi whose power was called to be fairy tale material/ God of Shinobi/ the only shinobi in history who can defeat Madara, etc. Kushina both lacks feats and hype comparable to those two in order to even approach one eyed Madara level.


Kushina actually has a great deal of hype

- To this day her feats against the Kyuubi when so low on power are still some of the best feats in the entire manga cannon
- When Naruto clearly believed Kushina's strength was still quite a ways ahead of his own, even after obtaining KCM
- Minato was comparing BM/BSM Naruto to Kushina a number of times
- She's the strongest Uzamaki we know about, which should say a-lot since it's the main characters, main clan.
- Main characters mother who is stated to be more like the main character than Minato; again should mean a-lot



> In fact that is like arguing that MS Sasuke is equal to EMS Madara since their best jutsu is Susanoo and Sasuke's chakra strength was stated to be equal to Madara's.


But again i'm not arguing Kushina = RT Madara overall, just in a single ability. 



> Kimimaro and Itachi were also both greatly weakened by their illness...does it mean that the former was as strong/stronger than Oro in his healthy state and Itachi's complete Susanoo would be MUCH stronger if he wasn't sick?



1) Nether of them even come close to how weakened Kushina was
2) Edo Itachi was stronger than his sick variant by a noticeable margin and his Susano'o was better because he could use it longer and summon it out more times. 
3) Edo Kimi probably would have been better to if he got panel time. Not stronger than Orochi, but he was never even close to that level when Sick.

On the flip side of this Kushina was beating Base Hashirama level shit (100% Kurama) while even more weakened than Kimi and Itachi. Chances are she can at least compete to a certain extent when at 100% w/ Base Hashi than; and really the skies the limit beyond that.



> erhaps even on the same level as Madara's PS? For all we know Kushina's chains were just as strong when she was dying as Itachi's Susanoo was when he was dying too. Or Nagato's RT being no less effective due to him coughing blood due to exhaustion. Determinators are just as strong when they approach death and are fueled by WoF than when they are healthy.


The problem is your comparing different Jutsu. So far MS Susano'o is limited to Stage 4, no matter the fuel someone has in their tank it can't go beyond that. So even though Itachi got stronger as an Edo he couldn't evolve that technique any further w/o EMS. However in the case of the chakra chains there does not appear to be a limit on the size (or number) of chains one can produce, given how Kushina demonstrates creating far more numerous and larger chains than Karin. So the only limit that's been subscribed to the chains so far is one's stamina; now we can assume pretty safely that the stamina supply Kushina had after child birth & kyuubi extraction was much lower than her traditional supply. Therefore 100% Kushina should be able to produce more chains and large chains if the situation demanded it.

Basically i'm not saying the chains are necessarily going to become magically stronger (though they could, especially w/ Kyuubi Chakra), but that Kushina at 100% will be able to wield them more freely.



> I do not see how Minato could become a hokage if his wife was stronger than even his current BM self. It makes no sense when it comes to portrayal


It makes perfect sense. Kushina clearly made a choice to become a mother, instead of being Hokage; it's really that simple. Your not going to assign the position to someone who is pregers or someone who has made their intention to become pregers very clear. On-top of that Kushina had several factors going against her; mistrust in the Jins and her being from another nation, while Minato was the golden boy who was trained by J-man (beloved by the diamayo).

Also was Tsunade the strongest in the village when she became Hokage? No J-man was. Was Kakashi the strongest in the village when he was about to be promoted to Hokage? No Naruto was. Was Tsunade the strongest in the village when it was decided she'd resume her position as Hokage? No Naruto was. 



> And Naruto saying that he wants to be stronger than her means nothing as he never knew how strong she truly is as even in her flashback she didn't have a proper fight.


Which should tell you that the fragment of Kushina's chakra that Naruto interacted w/ already exhibited enough power where Naruto was like fuck my mom is stronger than me. Which should further tell you that 100% Kushina is much much stronger than KCM Naruto



> IMO Kushina is AT BEST Nagato level. That is when she still had Kurama and is at her "healthiest".


Nagato was failing against KN8 of the 50% Fox; maybe on Nagato's best day he could take down Full on KN9 of 50% Fox, but Kushina on her worst day took down 100% Fox. I think the difference between the two is pretty clear.



> Otherwise we might as well make the unknown Uzumaki clan leader as Rikudou level or Hiruzen's dad as above Juubi level if they show any jutsu that is capable of defeating a kage level opponent.


I mean if ether of those characters at a incredibly small fraction of their power were able to defeat the Demon Fox, I'd rate them very highly too. Not Rikudo level, but no one said Kushina was Rikudo level, so yeah.

Basically I just think the Top Uzamaki will equal the Top Senju & Uchiha by the end of the manga. So Kushina (or Mito) will probably end up around Hashirama and EMS Madara level. Though once you start combining those powers than your above that level; I.E. RT Madara.



> If you hype Kushina so much due to Karin's feat then you might as well put Karin at BM Naruto level since her chains were owning a construct whose power may equal 100% Kurama and had to be interrupted by Spiral shortly after activating it. For all we know she could destroy it shortly enough...if we keep with speculations as you do for Kushina. Karin was even called 'The strongest kunoichi" on one cover which still exceeds any hype comment that Kushina got anyway...


Cover dialog isn't  real hype as they are just made up by Shonen Jump.

The reason I don't put Karin at that level is because I don't think she came close to defeating the Buddha; people this week keep ignoring that on the very next page we see the Buddha has a shit ton of arms left and all Karin did was destroy a few arms. So Buddha feat proves the chains are strong, but Karin's brief usage of them is not up to snuff.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Rinnegan Obito and Rinnegan Madara, can do it. Not sure about MS Obito and EMS Madara.
> 
> 
> No i'm saying in terms of sealing the Bijuu & Chakra Chains she's just as good as RT Madara. Obviously RT MAdara has other feats he can fall back on besides GM+Chakra Chains attacks, while Non-Kurama Jin Kushina does not have much beyond her Chain abilities. Now obviously she does have more than that, having taught Minato all the Fuuinjutsu he knows and such, but it's unlikely that is as good as the other shit RT Madara had.
> ...



All we know is that the seal they used to deal with Juubi required hand seals and not activating some sort of rinnegan ability. Kinda like what Madara did to break free from ET.

In order to match Madara's feat of sealing all 9 bijuu with demonic chakra chains Kushina would have to be a Rikudou as the feat that Madara did at that time with GM assistance was only possible due to him having both Senju and Uchiha powers + Rinnegan. Kushina is just an extremely strong Uzumaki/Senju.

Regarding her feats:
- Her lifeforce being low due to her wounds does not necessarily make those chains weak as her chakra tank was still full at that time and the strength of her chakra does not have to diminish due to her wounds. RS elder son was said to have the strength of chakra from his father while the younger had the huge lifeforce passed from him. If the chains rely not on lifeforce but more on chakra(like all jutsus do) then I see no reason why her chains were weaker.
-Naruto didn't know her true power though. He was just speculating like he did when he assumed that semi blind MS Sasuke was still so strong that he required to master Kuaram in order to fight him. And that without even seeing his Susanoo or anything.
- That was more like how Kushina and Naruto are similar and how he felt nostalgia than anything IMO. He did not say anything how he was just as strong as her or anything power related. Hell...Tobirama also said how fighting alongside SM Naruto reminded him of fighting alongside his brother Here  
Does it mean that it was meant to imply that SM Naruto is equal to SM Hashirama? And he didn't saw even Naruto's BM at that point...
-She is the strongest Uzumaki? Where did Kishi mention or even imply that? I would even go so far as to believe that Mito was actually the strongest. Why? Because we saw the symbol on her forehead which heavily implies that she has byakugou which Kushina lacks. We also know through Tobi that Mito was able to sense emotions like KCM Naruto. However, even though Tobi knew that about Mito he did not mention Kushina alongside her. That could mean that due to dying so young Kushina didn't master Kyuubi even to the level of KCM. And Mito with ehr red hair also seems to be a fully privileged Uzumaki and due to coming from her country while Uzushio was still around it would hardly be surprising if she was taught plenty of fuinjutsu from the best the Uzumaki clan had to offer IMO.
-Main characters mother isn't THAT convincing. If we buy into that then we may speculate that Mikoto who is the mother of the deuteragonist of this manga and friend to Kushina herself could easily be her rival and as close in power to her as Naruto is with Sasuke. Sounds way too crazy...

Kimimaro was basically on his last legs and could only move thanks to willpower alone. Itachi was caughting blood like crazy and was only alive due to taking drugs so he could meet Sasuke again. When he activated Susanoo he barely had enough strength to even walk.

So you believe that if Itachi or Kimimaro had more chakra then they would be much stronger with that alone? It doesn't exactly work like in DBZ that when one has more chakra/ki is stronger. Otherwise part 1 Naruto would be stronger than part 1 Kakashi and MUCH stronger than part 1 Sasuke.

I think that if Kushina was THAT broken then she would be crazy famous. So crazy famous that guys like Kakashi or Raikage wouldn't call Minato the greatest or impossible to surpass if Minato's wife did make him  look like a chuunin. I think that they were partners of similar power and complimented each other well on the battlefield. Kinda like Ei and Bee. Also I do not buy people not trusting her or giving her credit solely due to her being a jin and from a different country. Gaara was a accepted as a kage despite being so young and at such a young age and Bee also through determination ended up proving himself to be worthy of being called a hero of Kumogakure. Same with Naruto who despite being jin is loved by everyone. And her being from a different country matter little IMO given that Konoha and Uzushio were close friends...even to such extent that Konoha shinobi still carry Uzushio symbol on their backs LOL

Nagato was amazing for he did not have sealing jutsus to restrict Kurama and could only overpower him with raw power.
That said Obito even on the verge of death after being left with a huge hole in his midsection and later dealt another mortal wound at Minato's hands was still able to seal the frakin' Juubi.
Does it mean that Obito at his healthiest could seal a being 10 times stronger than Juubi? Sounds ridiculous. Especially given that Rinnegan didn't appear to increase Obito's power level and without Neo Pain I could still see Minato defeating him.
Which leads me to believe that sealing bijuus when one knows the correct hand seals or some sort of special ability is not THAT hard. Certainly easier than beat either Kurama or Juubi into submission through raw power alone.
Also Kushina due to being Kurama's former Jin could have still a link remaining with said biju which could make it easier to drag Kurama back into her body.

And regarding Karin we can see on this upper panel that Shinsenju arm backpack is completely gone after Karin's onslaught : Here

Compare to how fresh the statue looked the last time we saw it before Karin's onslaught Here

For all we know both Sakura and Karin will surpass Kushina...especially if they end up as Naruto's and Sasuke's girlfriends/wives. That would make them the new generation of kunoichi that is meant to surpass the previous one.

Though I agree how weird it feels to see both of them suddenly showing such stuff when they were rather...not so impressive before that.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 11, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> She did handle Minatos wood, but it was too small i doubt that she would overpower gigantic wood such as Hashiramas. I'll give her 20-30 mins max then shes finished.



Minato's wood probably had a longer name than actual size. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



But seriously, Kushina doesn't stand a chance against Hashi's higher level Mokuton IMO.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 11, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Let's put things from another perspective.
> 
> Let's say I want to catch a Drosophila Melanogaster (basically, a fly, I just wanted to sound cool ) using a net while I want to catch a cat using the same kind of net. Which one will be more easy to catch? The answer is probably the cat. What if the net's holes are big enough for the fly to escape while the cat is too big to do that? Not to mention the fly can easily avoid being caught by the net or can escape out of my sight due its size while a cat can't.
> 
> ...


Your argument is flawed. A fly cannot travel the distance a cat can at the same rate, it would be much, much easier to capture a fly than a cat assuming you could perceive it and had a net without holes. Hashirama, being the fly, is easily perceived by Kushina, because he's the same size as her. I like how you chose a fly, arguably one of the fastest and most elusive insects in the world- how about we now compare that same scenario to that of an ant, an extremely fast insect on it's own scale, but more practical to human restriction (Hashirama cannot fly). 

A more accurate presentation being Hashirama is an ant, and Kurama is the cat, in a completely illuminated empty room. Which is easier to capture, Jagger? 

It's ridiculous to suggest that capturing a beast the size of a skyscraper is less difficult than that of any human being in the verse. The mere challenge in rapping the chain around it's body is a difficult task because it is 100x the size of a human being, meaning the chain has to cover 100x the distance before the beast reacts to imprison it. 

The 'smaller the more elusive' theory is complete nonsense. If you expanded a jack rabbit to the size of Kurama how much more elusive would it now be? Significantly. 

Once again, I employ readers to imagine Kurama running at full velocity. He's never done it, and never will- because it fucking couldn't be drawn. Kishimoto would not be able to draw a landscape large enough to perceive Kurama's speed covering accurately the same we perceive human ninja speed (like a Kakashi shunshin).

You will also never see the Juubi running, because again, it could not be drawn with an accurate scale to determine distance/second because you'd need a fucking country eye view.


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## Turrin (Feb 11, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> All we know is that the seal they used to deal with Juubi required hand seals and not activating some sort of rinnegan ability. Kinda like what Madara did to break free from ET.
> .


Actually they seal the Demons into GM, first, which is Rinnegan related.



> In order to match Madara's feat of sealing all 9 bijuu with demonic chakra chains Kushina would have to be a Rikudou as the feat that Madara did at that time with GM assistance was only possible due to him having both Senju and Uchiha powers + Rinnegan. Kushina is just an extremely strong Uzumaki/Senju.


Kushina (& Mito) were stated as able to seal the 100% Demon Fox, which would have power & chakra roughly equivalent to what Madara sealed. So what makes Madara's feat better?



> Her lifeforce being low due to her wounds does not necessarily make those chains weak as her chakra tank was still full at that time and the strength of her chakra does not have to diminish due to her wounds. RS elder son was said to have the strength of chakra from his father while the younger had the huge lifeforce passed from him. If the chains rely not on lifeforce but more on chakra(like all jutsus do) then I see no reason why her chains were weaker.


Wait your going to argue with a straight face that her chakra supply was unaffected by hours of child labor and having the Demon Fox ripped from her body. If so i'm done w/ this discussion because I find that ludicrous.



> Naruto didn't know her true power though. He was just speculating like he did when he assumed that semi blind MS Sasuke was still so strong that he required to master Kuaram in order to fight him. And that without even seeing his Susanoo or anything.


He wasn't speculating at all, he literally saw her power first hand during his duel with Kurama. The fact that he didn't see anywhere close to her full power, and still suspected that she was stronger than him, just hypes Kushina even further.



> That was more like how Kushina and Naruto are similar and how he felt nostalgia than anything IMO. He did not say anything how he was just as strong as her or anything power related. Hell...Tobirama also said how fighting alongside SM Naruto reminded him of fighting alongside his brother Link removed
> Does it mean that it was meant to imply that SM Naruto is equal to SM Hashirama? And he didn't saw even Naruto's BM at that point...


The Nostalgia feelings are precisely power/skill related. Whenever Kishi has characters remark on Naruto giving off an aura, feeling, or nostalgia of certain characters, Kishi is always indicating that Naruto is coming closer to their level as a Ninja. When Tobirama comments how Naruto reminds him of his brother, it's to tell readers that Naruto is getting closer to Hashirama's level. The Kushina comparison also gives the same general feeling that Kishi is throwing those in their to let readers know that Naruto is getting closer to Kushina.

And no SM Naruto does not equal Hashirama, but Tobirama sense Naruto's massive Kyuubi Chakra power in KCM/BM and than saw him pull out SM on-top of it. So it's natural that he'd start to compare Naruto's skills to Hashirama, at that point.



> She is the strongest Uzumaki? Where did Kishi mention or even imply that? I would even go so far as to believe that Mito was actually the strongest. Why? Because we saw the symbol on her forehead which heavily implies that she has byakugou which Kushina lacks. We also know through Tobi that Mito was able to sense emotions like KCM Naruto. However, even though Tobi knew that about Mito he did not mention Kushina alongside her. That could mean that due to dying so young Kushina didn't master Kyuubi even to the level of KCM. And Mito with ehr red hair also seems to be a fully privileged Uzumaki and due to coming from her country while Uzushio was still around it would hardly be surprising if she was taught plenty of fuinjutsu from the best the Uzumaki clan had to offer IMO.


I meant that Kushina is the strongest we've seen in action. We've yet to see anything from Mito. However I agree that Mito could be stronger than Kushina, but right now Kushina has the most impressive display out of any Uzamaki.



> -Main characters mother isn't THAT convincing. If we buy into that then we may speculate that Mikoto who is the mother of the deuteragonist of this manga and friend to Kushina herself could easily be her rival and as close in power to her as Naruto is with Sasuke. Sounds way too crazy...


Sorry to say but Sasuke is not the main character, and his important family member is very powerful (Itachi).



> Kimimaro was basically on his last legs and could only move thanks to willpower alone. Itachi was caughting blood like crazy and was only alive due to taking drugs so he could meet Sasuke again. When he activated Susanoo he barely had enough strength to even walk.


Naruto literally passed out and died after having Kyuubi ripped out of him. Kushina had that done to her on-top of the strain of child birth. Kimi's and Itachi's illnesses absolutely pale in comparison to that.



> So you believe that if Itachi or Kimimaro had more chakra then they would be much stronger with that alone? It doesn't exactly work like in DBZ that when one has more chakra/ki is stronger. Otherwise part 1 Naruto would be stronger than part 1 Kakashi and MUCH stronger than part 1 Sasuke.


The manga literally tells us that Itachi and Kimi should be much stronger, if not for their illness. I don't know what manga your reading if your going to sit here and tell me more chakra is not better in the Naruto-world.



> I think that if Kushina was THAT broken then she would be crazy famous.


DB III, "A strong-willed spirit and that kind of ninjutsu skillfulness, even the sannin had heard of her, she won fame..." 



> So crazy famous that guys like Kakashi or Raikage wouldn't call Minato the greatest or impossible to surpass if Minato's wife did make him look like a chuunin. I think that they were partners of similar power and complimented each other well on the battlefield. Kinda like Ei and Bee.


All of Minato's hype is related to his potential and how exemplary of a Ninja he was. It's never really suppose to be taken as an entirely strength based thing. I mean Ei and Kakashi are smart enough to know that their are quite a number of people stronger than Minato; Kakashi even read the Uchiha tablet. So it's not totally about strength, rather it's the same bullshit as when Hashirama says Itachi's better Ninja than him since he sacrificed so much for the village.



> Also I do not buy people not trusting her or giving her credit solely due to her being a jin and from a different country. Gaara was a accepted as a kage despite being so young and at such a young age and Bee also through determination ended up proving himself to be worthy of being called a hero of Kumogakure. Same with Naruto who despite being jin is loved by everyone. And her being from a different country matter little IMO given that Konoha and Uzushio were close friends...even to such extent that Konoha shinobi still carry Uzushio symbol on their backs LOL


- Gaara was made a figure head leader, and was really only accepted after giving his life for the village. 
- B was not completely accepted by Kumo and pretty much lived on his own. It's just that for the most part we've been seeing characters who are related to b interact w/ him. In-fact considering that B was not elected to be Raikage despite being stronger than Ei, B's yet another example where the Jin is stronger than the Kage.



> Nagato was amazing for he did not have sealing jutsus to restrict Kurama and could only overpower him with raw power.


Kushina both overpowered a stronger Kurama w/ her chains and did have a sealing Jutsu. She also did such while on her death bed. Kushina's feats against Kurama are vastly more impressive, it's not even debatable.



> That said Obito even on the verge of death after being left with a huge hole in his midsection and later dealt another mortal wound at Minato's hands was still able to seal the frakin' Juubi.


So were ignoring all the prior groundwork that went into that, I.E. the days it took the collective Akatsuki to seal each demon into the statue and awaken the Juubi? Kushina can seal Kurama into herself on the fly, it takes Obito several days w/ the aid of other Akatsuki members to seal weaker Bijuu. Again Kushina's ability is vastly superior.



> Does it mean that Obito at his healthiest could seal a being 10 times stronger than Juubi? Sounds ridiculous. Especially given that Rinnegan didn't appear to increase Obito's power level and without Neo Pain I could still see Minato defeating him.
> Which leads me to believe that sealing bijuus when one knows the correct hand seals or some sort of special ability is not THAT hard. Certainly easier than beat either Kurama or Juubi into submission through raw power alone.
> Also Kushina due to being Kurama's former Jin could have still a link remaining with said biju which could make it easier to drag Kurama back into her body.


Yeah it's not hard if you proactively choose to ignore all the massive amount of ground work Obito put into that feat lol

Anyway I don't know where your getting the idea that i'm saying Kushina can seal something 10 times stronger than the Kyuubi from. All I said was she could produce more chains and large chains when at full chakra. How does this translate to she can seal Kyuubi x10 lol.



> And regarding Karin we can see on this upper panel that Shinsenju arm backpack is completely gone after Karin's onslaught


Dude what are you talking about, in that upper panel we literally see dozens of arms still on the Buddha's back. On the bottom of that page we also see another arm grab Spiral.



> Compare to how fresh the statue looked the last time we saw it before Karin's onslaught


Yeah they look exactly the same except one panel is showing the statue from behind while the other is showing it form the front.



> For all we know both Sakura and Karin will surpass Kushina...especially if they end up as Naruto's and Sasuke's girlfriends/wives. That would make them the new generation of kunoichi that is meant to surpass the previous one.


Okay, and I care about this why? 



> Though I agree how weird it feels to see both of them suddenly showing such stuff when they were rather...not so impressive before that.


It doesn't feel weird to me at all, Kishi has been pulling shit out of his ass for years now lol


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## Arles Celes (Feb 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Actually they seal the Demons into GM, first, which is Rinnegan related.
> 
> 
> Kushina (& Mito) were stated as able to seal the 100% Demon Fox, which would have power & chakra roughly equivalent to what Madara sealed. So what makes Madara's feat better?
> ...



We also know that they seal those demons into GM to resurrect Juubi. They can easily enough seal even Juubi into themselves without any crazy preparations.

Madara didn't have to deal just with 8 tailed beasts + 50% Kurama but 8 tailed beasts + 50% Kurama's chakra mixed with Naruto's which makes their avatar form quite more impressive to what just 50% Kurama should be able to, and as a small bonus he had to deal with Gaara's interference.

Naruto also saw that Kushina had trouble keeping up with just 50% Kurama X
After getting serious 50% Kurama was able to rip off Kushina's chains. And while that still may put Kushina above what Naruto could do at that time it does not strike me as something on base Hashirama's level IMO.

I do not buy so much into such things as nostalgia to be fair. If Sasuke gets a power up that puts him at Madara's level and still talks how perfect and amazing Itachi was it won't make me believe that Itachi was soooo holding back during the Kabuto fight and is still above Madara level Sasuke. Besides even if Tobirama sensed Naruto's BM chakra he did not saw how good is Naruto at using that chakra and his nostalgia compliment wasn't directed at Naruto's BM potential but at his SM which also his brother could do.

Mito wasn't the mother of the main character and is still extremely hyped. In fact if we buy into this plot relevance business then we should keep in mind that Sasuke is still quite more important that Hashi and his unnamed kid so therefore Mikoto should be much stronger than Mito. Also Kishi loves parallels and did make Madara's and Hashirama's dads to be portrayed at the same level. Why not do so with Mikoto and Kushina? If Sasuke was so below Naruto in plot relevance then Naruto would have surpassed him long ago and the rivalry would be over since part 1. Nothing prevented Kishi from going this way.

Kimimaro's and Itachi's illnesses would pale if they didn't die due to said illnesses quite soon after engaging their opponents and while caughing blood all time.

It is still unknown though if Itachi chakra levels were much higher when he was still healthy or whether his sickness "only" drastically decreased all of his stats without taking a heavy toll on chakra capacity as it wasn't mentioned and is still just speculation. We know though that part 1 Naruto and Kisame despite having much more chakra than  Kakashi and Itachi respectively were still inferior to them.

I didn't know that quote from the databook regarding Kushina, good to know. But then again if she was so famous then it is hard to believe why Kishi after over 600 chapters didn't hype her power through some other character from either other country or her own village while calling her the strongest kunoichi or best Jin or goddess of the battlefield or whatever. Just stating that she won fame falls a bit short when it comes to hype as even Kakashi won fame through the world as Sharingan Kakashi and was heard of even by the likes of Raikage or Oonoki. And it would be weird if the sannin didn't know about any girl that is above jounin level and is coming from their own village.

If so many people think that there are plenty of people stronger than Minato then why do they hold him in such a high pedestal power wise while never mentioning the Hashirama level Kushina? Minato was always meant to be as Naruto's ultimate benchmark till Kishi fell in love with Hashi. He was more than just a great guy. He was a guy with a run on sight order during war. he defeated one of the main villains without taking a scratch. Furthermore, in shounen manga it is the father of the main character that is usually stronger than anyone aside from the FV himself. For the mother to hold such status is rather...unheard of. And given how Kishi treated his females...

Even so Gaara earned the trust of all people in his village. And no other shinobi from his village can match his power. Kushina could easily have plenty of chances to earn some heroic points like Gaara did. And Bee is just way to lazy and irresponsible to be kage. He would just rap all day and take it easy. Were he more serious and actually wanted it he could easily gather enough votes to become raikage IMO.

Kushina also had Minato's assistance though and Kurama could start breaking free from those chains like he did as 50% Kurama. If he started to get serious it is unknown if Kushina could actually succeed. Just because she wanted to do so it doesn't mean she could. Tobirama still believed that he had a shot of taking Madara down and even swore to do so after running to the battlefield but was owned. People sometimes overestimate their strength. Same could have happen with Kushina Vs 100% Kurama.

Obito planned to have both Kurama and Hachibi sealed that very day which makes me doubt that it would be a lengthy extraction even with just Obito alone. Admittedly it could be due to the rinnegan but at this point Obito could apparently seal the bijuus inside the statue QUITE fast.

Sealing the Juubi had nothing to do with preparations. Resurrecting the Juubi  did. He sealed it within himself with no help and on the verge of death with two mortal wounds. If Kushina is so badass for being supposedly capable of sealing Kurama despite the wounds that weakened her then so is Obito for sealing a much stronger bijuu while in a similar condition.

Karin still inflicted way more damage to the statue than 4 kages and plenty of chakra powered alliance shinobi did. And she did so in like half a page with Spiral immediately stopping her before she even started. Kushina didn't inflict any damage to neither 50% Kurama nor 100% Kurama with her chains and it is unknown if she could. Karin already used plenty of chakra to fix such a chakra tank as Tsunade and later possibly the other gokage, to heal herself from Spiral's mortal wound, and she isn't even panting yet. Granted we need more feats from her as both she and Sakura got extreme hype but its hard to imagine either of them as top tiers yet.


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## Turrin (Feb 11, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> We also know that they seal those demons into GM to resurrect Juubi. They can easily enough seal even Juubi into themselves without any crazy preparations.


The GM stuff was the prep



> Madara didn't have to deal just with 8 tailed beasts + 50% Kurama but 8 tailed beasts + 50% Kurama's chakra mixed with Naruto's which makes their avatar form quite more impressive to what just 50% Kurama should be able to, and as a small bonus he had to deal with Gaara's interference.


And as a Bonus Kushina was half dead. So I think it's fair to call the feats similar.



> Naruto also saw that Kushina had trouble keeping up with just 50% Kurama X
> After getting serious 50% Kurama was able to rip off Kushina's chains.


She was a Mere Fragment of Chakra there. Naruto knows this.



> And while that still may put Kushina above what Naruto could do at that time it does not strike me as something on base Hashirama's level IMO.


She was a Mere Fragment of Chakra there. I'd like to see Base Hashirama do any better as a Mere Fragment of Chakra. Oh wait, we did see Hashirama as a mere Fragment of chakra via his Mokubushin who got fodderized by Madara and were nowhere near as impressive as Kushina performance against 50% Fox. Or how about when Hashirama was weakened by Edo Tensei in Part I, and had nowhere near as impressive of a display.



> I do not buy so much into such things as nostalgia to be fair. If Sasuke gets a power up that puts him at Madara's level and still talks how perfect and amazing Itachi was it won't make me believe that Itachi was soooo holding back during the Kabuto fight and is still above Madara level Sasuke. .


Sasuke is not an abt comparison as Nostalgia has not been used as a plot device by the author to indicate Sasuke is getting closer to a certain character's level, like nostalgia has been used in the case of Naruto. 



> Besides even if Tobirama sensed Naruto's BM chakra he did not saw how good is Naruto at using that chakra and his nostalgia compliment wasn't directed at Naruto's BM potential but at his SM which also his brother could do.


It was directed at Naruto completely; basically everything Naruto had shown made Tobirama feel nostalgic. Now where did Tobirama say he only got this feeling due specifically too SM. 



> Mito wasn't the mother of the main character and is still extremely hyped. In fact if we buy into this plot relevance business then we should keep in mind that Sasuke is still quite more important that Hashi and his unnamed kid so therefore Mikoto should be much stronger than Mito. Also Kishi loves parallels and did make Madara's and Hashirama's dads to be portrayed at the same level. Why not do so with Mikoto and Kushina? If Sasuke was so below Naruto in plot relevance then Naruto would have surpassed him long ago and the rivalry would be over since part 1. Nothing prevented Kishi from going this way.


Sasuke is not the main character. And it's not a matter of plot relevance. I do not believe the more plot relevance a character has necessarily transfers to strength, however I do believe in Shonen Troupes and those family members who are important to MC tend to be very powerful, if they are combat specialist like Kushina is.



> Kimimaro's and Itachi's illnesses would pale if they didn't die due to said illnesses quite soon after engaging their opponents and while caughing blood all time.


Umm...they fought entire battles, and eventually died after using numerous techniques. Naruto who has greater stamina/endurance/life energy than both of them combined was KO'd the second that Kyuubi was torn out of him. That makes Itachi's and Kimi's illnness shit in comparison, handicap speaking; and on-top of that Kushina had the strain of child birth as well.



> It is still unknown though if Itachi chakra levels were much higher when he was still healthy or whether his sickness "only" drastically decreased all of his stats without taking a heavy toll on chakra capacity as it wasn't mentioned and is still just speculation. We know though that part 1 Naruto and Kisame despite having much more chakra than Kakashi and Itachi respectively were still inferior to them.


I don't think  I ever said Itachi when healthy would have tons more chakra, he should have more logically speaking, but how much we'll never know. Same deal w/ Kushina, but much more drastically so, since she was in much worse condition than Itachi ever was.


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## Turrin (Feb 11, 2014)

> I didn't know that quote from the databook regarding Kushina, good to know. But then again if she was so famous then it is hard to believe why Kishi after over 600 chapters didn't hype her power through some other character from either other country or her own village while calling her the strongest kunoichi or best Jin or goddess of the battlefield or whatever. Just stating that she won fame falls a bit short when it comes to hype as even Kakashi won fame through the world as Sharingan Kakashi and was heard of even by the likes of Raikage or Oonoki. And it would be weird if the sannin didn't know about any girl that is above jounin level and is coming from their own village.


- Having Special Chakra even Among Uzamaki, that other Villages coveted
- Having Taut Minato Fuuinjutsu
- Being the Nine Tails Jinchuuriki
- Naruto (Post KCM) considering her stronger than him, after seeing a mere fragment of her power
- etc...

All of this is incredibly hype, back up by incredibly feats. Kakashi was famous, but I haven't seen any of the Sannin be blown away by Kakashi's skills. Nor does Kakashi have the hype or feats that Kushina commands.

But I get what your saying to certain extent, that Kushina hasn't gotten the limelight like Hashirama or Minato has, but I think one needs to acknowledge the fact that this is because Kishimoto is keeping a-lot of stuff to do w/ the Uzamaki Clan, Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu, and Whirlpool Village, hush, hush, at this point in the manga-cannon, and has gone out of his way to only drop subtle hints, but never address the subject entirely. Intentionally avoiding showing the Hakke Fuuin seal in action, for instance, or avoiding showing Madara giving Obito his eyes around the time of the fall of the Whirlpool village, etc... I mean to be perfectly honest the Uzamaki Clan stuff is the last great mystery in the manga and is still very likely the key to Naruto's Final power ultimate power.



> If so many people think that there are plenty of people stronger than Minato then why do they hold him in such a high pedestal power wise while never mentioning the Hashirama level Kushina? Minato was always meant to be as Naruto's ultimate benchmark till Kishi fell in love with Hashi. He was more than just a great guy. He was a guy with a run on sight order during war. he defeated one of the main villains without taking a scratch. Furthermore, in shounen manga it is the father of the main character that is usually stronger than anyone aside from the FV himself. For the mother to hold such status is rather...unheard of. And given how Kishi treated his females...


Actually people place Minato on a high pedestal in terms of how he great of a representation of the Ninja-way & Genius he was, much like they do w/ Itachi. In-fact when Naruto speaks about Minato and Kushina, he talks about becoming a better Ninja than his father, but becoming stronger than his mother; he seems to place Kushina's strength their on the higher pedestal, while placing his father's genius as a Ninja on the higher pedestal. As for the reason why people don't run around talking about Kushina and Mito, it's because Kishi is keeping that shit on the down-low as it's one of the bigger mysteries of the manga cannon right now. However despite this fact, plenty of powerful characters have acknowledge Kushina's abilities: Minato, Naruto, Kurama, The Sannin acknowledge her abilities according to the DB, and clearly Orochimaru coveted them as he took Karin in specifically to research her because she had abilities similar to Kushina's. 



> Even so Gaara earned the trust of all people in his village. And no other shinobi from his village can match his power. Kushina could easily have plenty of chances to earn some heroic points like Gaara did. And Bee is just way to lazy and irresponsible to be kage. He would just rap all day and take it easy. Were he more serious and actually wanted it he could easily gather enough votes to become raikage IMO.


- Gaara sacrificed his life, you don't get many chances to do that
- So your saying the way B choose to live made him a bad Kage candidate, kind of like how Kushina choosing to become pregers would make her a bad Kage candidate?



> Kushina also had Minato's assistance though and Kurama could start breaking free from those chains like he did as 50% Kurama. If he started to get serious it is unknown if Kushina could actually succeed. Just because she wanted to do so it doesn't mean she could.


- Kurama could not break through the chains, he only pulled that off because Kushina was a mere fragment of chakra at the time Naruto faced him. 
- Given the fact that Kushina and Minato both seemed to think she could accomplish it, I have no reason to doubt her ability to do so.
- Minato really wasn't doing anything to assist her. She was doing everything until Minato decided to seal the Fox in Naruto.



> Tobirama still believed that he had a shot of taking Madara down and even swore to do so after running to the battlefield but was owned. People sometimes overestimate their strength. Same could have happen with Kushina Vs 100% Kurama.


- And we were shown Tobirama couldn't do it. We were not shown Kushina being unable to seal Kurama, and we have both her and the fourth believing she could. If two intelligent characters who know both Kushina's powers and the fox's well, tell me something, and we have nothing that contradicts it their is no reason not to believe it's the case.



> Obito planned to have both Kurama and Hachibi sealed that very day which makes me doubt that it would be a lengthy extraction even with just Obito alone. Admittedly it could be due to the rinnegan but at this point Obito could apparently seal the bijuus inside the statue QUITE fast.
> 
> Sealing the Juubi had nothing to do with preparations. Resurrecting the Juubi did. He sealed it within himself with no help and on the verge of death with two mortal wounds. If Kushina is so badass for being supposedly capable of sealing Kurama despite the wounds that weakened her then so is Obito for sealing a much stronger bijuu while in a similar conditi


If your talking about a Rinnegan Obito, than fine, but I thought your were talking about an MS Obito. Obito's and Madara's feats w/ Rinnegan is certainly amazing.



> Karin still inflicted way more damage to the statue than 4 kages and plenty of chakra powered alliance shinobi did.


We know this how? The Kages could have destroyed a bunch of arms themselves off panel, we just don't notice it because the Buddha has a shit ton more. The same way that if Karin did her shit off panel we wouldn't know ether as Buddha still has a shit ton more arms.



> And she did so in like half a page with Spiral immediately stopping her before she even started.


Which also shows her inexperience.



> ushina didn't inflict any damage to neither 50% Kurama nor 100% Kurama with her chains and it is unknown if she could.


Really were saying Karin's better than Kushina. If so that's where i'm done w/ the convo.



> Karin already used plenty of chakra to fix such a chakra tank as Tsunade and later possibly the other gokage, to heal herself from Spiral's mortal wound, and she isn't even panting yet. Granted we need more feats from her as both she and Sakura got extreme hype but its hard to imagine either of them as top tiers yet.


Which is all i'm saying. If she starts using the chains more freely than I'll start giving her more credit, but she's still a long ways off from Kushina at this point who has vastly more impressive feats even when half dead.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 11, 2014)

lol now Kushina is building up quiet a fanbase. Kurama was far from helpless, even at 50% he has shown that he can break her chains if given enough time. Kushina ain't destroying Hashirqmas Mokuton constructs.


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## Kyu (Feb 11, 2014)

Can see Kushina's Chakra Chains giving Wood Dragon more than a little trouble, but nothing above that.


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## Azula (Feb 11, 2014)

kushina who is not near death smashes through all wood constructs you named, the kyuubi could only attempt to strike naruto because kushina slipped once due to being near death and the chains loosened


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## Trojan (Feb 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> lol now Kushina is building up quiet a fanbase. Kurama was far from helpless, even at 50% he has shown that he can break her chains if given enough time. Kushina ain't destroying Hashirqmas Mokuton constructs.





As for the 50% Kurama
did not she made the perfect opportunity for Naruto to attack him? 
X

She just make something as huge as Kurama fall.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Kushina can't handle Hashi's wood. Hashi's wood is too thick, to long, to strong, to big, and to powerful, Hashi's wood is gonna completely wreck Kushina.



You know I was about to rep everyone in this thread for not making the obvious innuendos.  I don't think I can do that now.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Having Special Chakra even Among Uzamaki, that other Villages coveted
> - Having Taut Minato Fuuinjutsu
> - Being the Nine Tails Jinchuuriki
> - Naruto (Post KCM) considering her stronger than him, after seeing a mere fragment of her power
> ...



I can imagine Kishi making an incredible Uzumaki as a counterpart to Senju and Uchiha.

HOWEVER, the main reason why Madara and Hashi are so broken is due to them being the ultimate benchmarks of the main characters. Madara and Hashi are also basically the Naruto and Sasuke of the previous generation. They should be more special than anyone apart from RS himself IMO.

Making Kushina, or The Uzumaki clan leader or Mito at the same level(or even close) as One eyed Madara who is a RIKUDOU(not just Uchiha, Senju or Uzumaki) and is vastly stronger than both his previous incarnation(which was already the strongest Uchiha) and Hashirama(who was the strongest Senju) make no sense IMO. Madara and Hashi were constantly presented as guys that are in their own league and no one can challenge either of them apart from the other guy. Its like as if Sakura or Karin ended up just as strong as Prime Naruto and Prime Sasuke. Rather ridiculous IMO.

It especially makes no sense given that hardly much plot relevance and connection to the current events was build up around them. If they were so broken as to rival one eyed Madara then they should've been resurrected as ET to be fought for Naruto or Sasuke before facing Juubi Jins. After facing said Jubi Jins even one eyed level Kushina or Mito would fall quite behind the top standards at that time. Besides by not building Kushina or the Uzumaki clan leader as the ultimate rival for Naruto or Sasuke or by giving them participation before facing JJ it would feel anticlimatic if they appeared when Sasuke and Naruto are waaaay above their level even if they were just as strong as you believed them to be.

And if they never appear to have a proper fight then why make them stronger than benchmarks like Hashi, Madara, or Minato? Like "Hi there, there are some characters that were hardly given any panel time and yet they might still be stronger than guys like Hashi, I will never show them fight because I dot feel like". Stupid.

Kushina may look impressive in her flashback but so Minato and Itachi looked invincible in their flashbacks stomping extremely powerful opponents with hardly any difficulty. Then they were forced into a no flashback fight and were overwhelmed and in need of assistance.

Seriously, I do not see what is wrong with being Nagato level as the guy was a Rikudou which places him above any known Uchiha or Senju apart from Madara and Hashirama who were basically anomalies power wise, the Chosen by Destiny and the past Naruto and Sasuke.


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## Bonly (Feb 12, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You know I was about to rep everyone in this thread for not making the obvious innuendos.  I don't think I can do that now.



Well someone needed to be "That guy" and after three pages, I felt that only I could be "That guy". But since I just cockRep blocked everyone I feel like I've done a good job


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## Rocky (Feb 13, 2014)

Tuurin, bro....

I'm not sure where it was indicated, anywhere in the Manga, that Kushina was tier buddies Rinnegan Obito, KCM Minato, Nagato, and EMS Sauce. Like, _what?_ You have her a *tier higher* than Sage Naruto, Tobirama, Edo Itachi (lol), The 4th Hokage (further lol)....I don't understand. What the hell did she do to warrant such high placement?



> Most likely she is at least that strong. Kushina weakened to an insane extent was able to defeat 100% Kurama and that is a power on the level of Base Hashirama. Karin with vastly less impressive skills to heavily weakened Kushina was able to combat Base Hashirama's strongest Mokuton technique (Shin Suusenju) to a certain extent, so it's very like Kushina could successfully take on Base Hashirama's Mokuton. Kushina was also stated to be stronger than KCM Naruto and compared to a BSM Naruto. The sky is literally the limit w/ her power right now




Kushina didn't defeat Kurama by herself. Actually, it was going to paste her had Minato not intervened. 

I also don't recall Kushina being stated to be superior to Naruto, ever.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 13, 2014)

Contrary to my other 15 page long debate with Turrin on Hiruzen, I think that there are a ton of reasons you could give for why Kushina was ridiculously awesome.  Though most of it is from extrapolation, and it's up to the individual whether they want to make or accept or agree with what comes from that, and more importantly for most, whether they think Kishi meant to portray that level of respect with her limited showing.  

Turrin's already said that Kishi pulls out random stuff whenever he feels like, so it stands to reason he's more likely to greet our fiery red-haired overlord as the first candidate to join the ranks of BD Katsuya, and that's perfectly acceptable.  Having definitely not bothered to read his posts for accuracy, she had, at minimum, twice the bijuu power of Naruto at her disposal, the power to take that chakra at will, and survived longer and better after extraction than her half blood son, along with a variety of powerful sealing jutsu that put  to shame.  That's already enough to place her very highly, and if you factor in how Naruto could out-speed Raikage with his KM, and accept that such a feat put him in or above Minato speeds, give her the bijuudama she probably had as consequence of bijuu mastery, the  her son displayed at lesser KN forms, super instant one person barriers, and so on and so forth, it really starts to add up.  Or you could take the approach that she's basically Naruto at twice the power he showed, and then take some of his wilder feats, like batting away multiple bijuudama as a bolt of lightening like some demi-god, and stopping the combined power of the other beasts bijuudama with only 50% kyuubi to duel his, and then you could easily get supported statements like "Kushina would overpower all the other beasts bijuudama, and hers would blow them all up," or, "Kushina throws up a barrier and zooms around the battlefield at double Raikage speeds super punching everyone's head off."  Which isn't to say I agree with all of the above statements, or the methods used to obtain them, but they hold a certain logical consistency to them nonetheless.  

But it's perfectly acceptable to think that Kishi doesn't want her to be seen even above Minato, or other jinchuuriki who were more or less around the level of Akatsuki members and other kages below Minato, and that Kishi didn't really think or intend for those other connections to be made, no matter how logical they may be, or how illogical his own reasoning might be.  Such as exemplified when Karen bit herself to heal herself, because biting works better than actually owning and coursing the chakra that heals you in the first place all the time whenever you want.  The simple argument here would be, "If Kishi wanted that, he'd have darn well said something more concrete."  Though Kishi is also bad about that, and often times expects you to just assume that someone is all that just because, like he did with so, so very many characters that are all hype and no feats, or who get their hype from defeating other opponents who were said to be great but also did nothing.  But even then, it's still fair and valid to think that way, and since KCM Minato wasn't 100x better than his other showings, you can also make the argument that not all power ups are created equal, even when they're the bloody power up.

For me, the issue was decided long ago.

If that hasn't swayed you, I doubt anything will.


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## Turrin (Feb 13, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> I can imagine Kishi making an incredible Uzumaki as a counterpart to Senju and Uchiha.


Glade we agree



> HOWEVER, the main reason why Madara and Hashi are so broken is due to them being the ultimate benchmarks of the main characters. Madara and Hashi are also basically the Naruto and Sasuke of the previous generation. They should be more special than anyone apart from RS himself IMO.


1) I'm not sold on the idea that Hashirama is the ultimate benchmark of Naruto anymore; given how much more powerful the villains are becoming than Hashirama
2) I still think it's going to turn out Uzamaki (or Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu) > Senju (or Uchiha)
3) Kushina is as much a spiritual predecessor of Naruto, as Hashirama is.
4) I would think the strongest member of the MC Clan, whether that be Kushina or Mito, would at least be special to a similar extent. 



> Making Kushina, or The Uzumaki clan leader or Mito at the same level(or even close) as One eyed Madara who is a RIKUDOU(not just Uchiha, Senju or Uzumaki) and is vastly stronger than both his previous incarnation(which was already the strongest Uchiha) and Hashirama(who was the strongest Senju) make no sense IMO. Madara and Hashi were constantly presented as guys that are in their own league and no one can challenge either of them apart from the other guy. Its like as if Sakura or Karin ended up just as strong as Prime Naruto and Prime Sasuke. Rather ridiculous IMO.


When did I say an Uzamaki will be stronger than RT Madara? I said in one specific area (utilizing the chains) they would be just as good. The thing is the main powers of the SO6P's and Juubi, which have been given focus in the manga are; Bijuu Powers (including the plant based Mokuton powers derived from Juubi), the Ocular Powers, Senjutsu/Natural Energy, and finally the Chains/Fuuinjutsu. RT Madara has all 4, which is why he's stronger than everyone else, but that doesn't mean that Hashirama couldn't be >= than him in Mokuton or the top Uzamaki >= in usage of Chains/Fuuinjutsu. 



> Madara and Hashi were constantly presented as guys that are in their own league and no one can challenge either of them apart from the other guy. Its like as if Sakura or Karin ended up just as strong as Prime Naruto and Prime Sasuke. Rather ridiculous IMO.


So I already explained the 4 Main Powers of Juubi/SO6P:
- Bijuu
- Dojutsu
- Senjutsu
- Chains/Fuuinjutsu

VOTE Madara and Prime Hashirama, have high mastery of two of these powers:

- Hashirama Bijuu Power (Mokuton) + Senjutsu (Slug SM?)
- Madara Bijuu Power (Kurama) + Dojutsu (EMS)

Kushina and Mito right now have confirmed mastery of one of these powers:

- Kushinada (& Mito) Uzamaki Chains/Fuuinjutsu

So to me they should be around Base Hashirama and EMS Madara w/o Kurama level; from what they've shown. However since both were Jinchuuriki of the Kyuubi and we've seen the Chains/Fuuin power of the Uzamaki allow for Bijuu control, its possible they they could also have high mastery of the Kyuubi's powers. Or both w/ an Uzamaki body/Kyuubi chakra  could have mastered SM; both being tied to men who have a connection to Senjutsu. So at minimum they should be close to Base Hashirama and EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi's level, but could end up even stronger. Personally i'm betting one of them had mastery of at least two of the main 4 powers and rivaled EMS Madara and Hashirama's full strength, not just their base (or w/o Kurama) forms.

As for Naruto and Sasuke:

So Far Naruto has demonstrated 1 1/2 of 4 main powers: Bijuu Power (KCM/BM, but lacking the full fox) and Senjutsu (Toad SM). Sasuke has demonstrated I'd say 1 & 1/2 of the 4: Dojutsu Power (EMS) and limited Senjutsu when in tandem w/ Juugo (CS). I'm not sure how far Sasuke will advance in strength, but I think we can pretty safely assume that Naruto is going surpass Hashirama, and the most logical way for him to do so is by wielding 3 of the 4 main powers: Toad SM, Kurama, and Uzamaki Chains/Fuuinjutsu. Beyond that it may even be that out of the 4  Uzamaki Chains/Fuuinjutsu is the most crucial power as it seems to be what allows for the reformation/deformation and sealing of the 10-tails.

As for how this relates to Karin vs Naruto/Sasuke. Even if she does master Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu/Chains to an extremely high level -- though as of now she hasn't shown anything anywhere near even half dead Kushina's level -- she'd still be well behind Naruto who will have at least 2 of the 4 major powers, but probably 3, including the same power as Karin. While she'd still be at least a bit behind Sasuke as at the very least he'll have limited access to a second of the 4 main powers (though he too might end up having more than that by the end). Though I imagine even assuming Karin will make it to Kushina's skill level w/ Chains/Fuuinjutsu during the actual story and not the EOS Time-Skip, is a little too much to hope for.



> It especially makes no sense given that hardly much plot relevance and connection to the current events was build up around them.


Hardly no plot relevance? Not sure if serious bro
1) Main Character is an Uzamaki
2) Kurama was sealed into Naruto w/ Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu
3) Main Jutsu of the MC's Parents is Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu
4) Village was saved again during Oro's invasion by an Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu
5) The Key and Seals Jiraiya/Kakashi use to train Naruto and control Kyuubi rampages are Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu
6) The Fuuinjutsu Nagato used to seal the Bijuu are most likely Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu or based on the same SO6P/Juubi oriented power
7) Uzamaki (Karin) becomes a major member of Sasuke new Team, saving his life at least once.
8) Nagato the main antagonist for most of Part II turns out to be an Uzamaki
9) Naruto's mom turns out to be an Uzamaki
10) Hashirama's wife turns out to be an Uzamaki
11) Uzamaki turn out to be a clan as tied to SO6P as Senju
12) An Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu was used to deal w/ the Kyuubi in Hashirama's era by Mito
13) Uzamaki powers are used to aid Naruto in defeating Kurama during their internal battle
14) Madara and Obito both seems to use Uzamaki powers very frequently to control or seal the tailed beasts during the war
15) One of the major powers that Kabuto and Orochimaru coveted was Uzamaki powers
16) Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu was once again used to help save the alliance by allowing the Hokages souls to be released from Shiki Fuujin and summoned back to aid the alliance
17) Using Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu to seal the Yin Half of Kyuubi into Naruto, seems to be the key to saving Naruto's life.

Uzamaki and Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu is far more relevant than any other Clan or Techniques in the manga.



> If they were so broken as to rival one eyed Madara then they should've been resurrected as ET to be fought for Naruto or Sasuke before facing Juubi Jins.


To me this is like saying, well Rikudo must be weaker than Haku, because he wasn't resurrected by Kabuto. It's just silly. There are tons of shinobi Kabuto could have brought back but he was limited to those Shinobi whose DNA he could acquire. He probably could not get his hands on Kushina or Mito's DNA to revive them. From an in story perspective it's as simple as that. From an authorial perspective; Kishi could have had Buto bring back so many fucked Tensei, or the alliance would have been obliterated. I mean if Kishi really wanted him to Buto could have brought back Rikudo Sannin, but Rikudo would have obliterate the alliance, so there is no point to that.


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## Turrin (Feb 13, 2014)

> . After facing said Jubi Jins even one eyed level Kushina or Mito would fall quite behind the top standards at that time.


I don't get what your trying to say here



> Besides by not building Kushina or the Uzumaki clan leader as the ultimate rival for Naruto or Sasuke or by giving them participation before facing JJ it would feel anticlimatic if they appeared when Sasuke and Naruto are waaaay above their level even if they were just as strong as you believed them to be.


Who says Naruto and Sasuke are way above their level? So far all the author has shown us in regards to that Naruto seeing a mere fragment of Kushina's power fight, believed she was stronger than him post KCM and Minato comparing BSM Naruto to Kushina. That's it. 

Plus even if they were weaker, it wouldn't be anti-climatic if their Jutsu were some ultimate techniques, for Naruto to learn. Just like Naruto may be much stronger than Old Hiruzen right now w/ BSM, but I'd still be pretty pumped up if Hiruzen were to teach Naruto how to utilize all 5 Elements, allowing Naruto to utilize many different elemental Jutsu or all 5 variations of the elemental Rasengan.



> And if they never appear to have a proper fight then why make them stronger than benchmarks like Hashi, Madara, or Minato? Like "Hi there, there are some characters that were hardly given any panel time and yet they might still be stronger than guys like Hashi, I will never show them fight because I dot feel like". Stupid.


Many of their Jutsu have been the star or key component to victory in major fights, and we have been shown Kushina on her death bed being able to beat 100% Kurama, which is proper fight.

So it's going to be more like this:

Kishi, "Kushina (Or Mito) >= Hashirama/EMS Madara and blah blah Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu Kushina (or Mito) could use  is the SO6P's ultimate technique, that Naruto needs to learn by embracing his Uzamaki heritage to deal w/ FV (or one of the FVs)."

Forum, "WTF... you pulled that out of your ass Kishi!"

Kishi, "I literally had Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu constantly focused on as being ultimate techniques in this series, & the MC is an Uzamaki! How can you say there is no build up to this?"

Forum, "but but, you never showed them fight"

Kishi, "I literally had Kushina beat the Demon Fox!"

Forum, "Whatever Demon Fox isn't as good as Hashirama and Madara's shit"

Kishi, "But I had her do it when weakened to an insane extent!"

Kishi, "And the manga isn't over yet, so I'm going to show more from them later on"

Forum, "Not buying it bro!"

Kishi, "  "



> Kushina may look impressive in her flashback but so Minato and Itachi looked invincible in their flashbacks stomping extremely powerful opponents with hardly any difficulty. Then they were forced into a no flashback fight and were overwhelmed and in need of assistance.


Itachi beat some fodder Uchiha in his flashback, it's not even remotely close to comparable to what Kushina did. Minato's achievements whether they are better or worse than Kushina's can be debated, but than when you consider Kushina accomplished her shit while Post-Child Birthing/Bijuu extraction, her feats become a-lot more impressive.



> Seriously, I do not see what is wrong with being Nagato level as the guy was a Rikudou which places him above any known Uchiha or Senju apart from Madara and Hashirama who were basically anomalies power wise, the Chosen by Destiny and the past Naruto and Sasuke.


Nothing's wrong with it and if you notice I don't place her currently that far above Nagato on my Tier list (same tier, same general area of the tier, etc...), so as of what she's shown right now, I think around Nagato is correct. However to me that is a bottom line minimum of her strength, considering the implications at play which I've already discussed and the fact that if she's already that strong w/ so little panel time one can only bet she'll get stronger once she starts getting more. But anyway to me it's ether going to be:

Kushina around Nagato level, w/ Mito around Hashirama/EMS Madara level
The reverse
or Both are around Hashirama/EMS Madara level

Basically I don't see there not being an Uzamaki around that level. If Kishi really wants to be sexist I guess he could always throw in some bullshit like Kushina's Father being that Uzamaki, but I hope not.



Rocky said:


> Tuurin, bro....
> I'm not sure where it was indicated, anywhere in the Manga, that Kushina was tier buddies Rinnegan Obito, KCM Minato, Nagato, and EMS Sauce. Like, _what?_ You have her a *tier higher* than Sage Naruto, Tobirama, Edo Itachi (lol), The 4th Hokage (further lol)....I don't understand. What the hell did she do to warrant such high placement?



- Showed she could solo Kurama while half dead. Who would rape all  the characters you listed, except maybe Minato. Though even Minato's chances, if he was in good health, are slim. If he tried to take Kurmaa on when he was half dead, he'd also be raped

- Showed enough strength as a mere Fragment of her chakra where Naruto considered her stronger than him even after gaining KCM. Naruto Post KCM is easily a rival for anyone of those characters in strength, so if Kushina is stronger in him, then her placement above those characters becomes obvious.

- Than we have Minato comparing BSM Naruto to Kushina. BSM Naruto would also rape the living hell out all of those characters. 

- Than we have Karin using a mere fraction of the power half dead Kushina displayed combating Hashirama's strongest Jutsu. And this recent chapter we have Juugo implying even Zetsu-DNA Orochimaru would have problems w/ Karin. 

The manga has made it obvious Kushina is a beast.



> Kushina didn't defeat Kurama by herself. Actually, it was going to paste her had Minato not intervened.


Oh I get it because Kushina needed help from being squashed the moment after kyuubi was extracted were just going to ignore the fact that later on after she got her barrings more, she casually bound Kyuubi up and said she could seal it back inside herself, defeating it, despite still being on the verge of death.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 1) I'm not sold on the idea that Hashirama is the ultimate benchmark of Naruto anymore; given how much more powerful the villains are becoming than Hashirama
> 2) I still think it's going to turn out Uzamaki (or Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu) > Senju (or Uchiha)
> 3) Kushina is as much a spiritual predecessor of Naruto, as Hashirama is.
> 4) I would think the strongest member of the MC Clan, whether that be Kushina or Mito, would at least be special to a similar extent.
> ...



Well...till now only RT Madara, Juubito and Juubidara are clearly above Hashi's level. Maybe Edo Madara could have defeated him too due to all the enhancements he got but it seemed to me like they were equals and so they ended up immobilizing each other. Granted Edo Madara might have freed himself from Hashi's Gate of Great God if he tried enough and BZ wasn't around as an option to resurrect him...but that is just speculation.

Juubito and Juubidara are basically a combination of the strongest genes of the 2 strongest clans that are RS direct descendants and are even powered by a being that was described as the progenitor of the whole world- Juubi. 

So basically if we discount Hashi of the equation then I guess those two would be the ultimate benchmarks...though Juudara seems stronger than Juubito which is strange given that Naruto's ultimate benchmark should be around the same level as Sasuke's at least. Granted there is still RS but I wouldn't be surprised if the FV turned out to be stronger than RS himself to hype Naruto's and Sasuke's victory to an insane level. Hmmm...

One of my main doubts regarding making the Uzushio or some other village having shinobi whose power eclipsed that of the strongest hokages is how it goes against Kishi's intentions of hyping the hokage title so much. I mean it is CLEAR that hokages are such badassess mainly because it is Naruto's ultimate goal through the entire manga to surpass them. That is why they had to be like the ultimate benchmark for him...with only the FV(s) possibly eclipsing them and Sasuke who is his main rival and deuteragonist. 

If Uzushio (or some other village) had shinobi on the same level as EMS Madara or Hashirama then how exactly Uzushio could be destroyed even if the everyone attacked them? Even an army of 100000(which equals the entire Alliance) shouldn't be able to do shit to the Uzumaki Leader or Mito. And a Hashi level Kushina could easily solo the 3rd Shinobi War while Minato does nothing but comb his hair LOL. Also if some other village(not Uzushio) had shinobi that were on Hashi's/Madara's level then it is weird how such village didn't take over the world already.

That said I could see the Uzumaki clan being portrayed as equals to the Uchihas as the Senju are only Hashi basically(Tobirama owes his strength not to genetic or clan jutsus but to his talent as inventor). I wonder why Kishi didn't make Hashi an Uzumaki though. We can see that Kishi seems to consider the Uzumaki as the legitimate counterparts of the Uchiha here Haku blitzed Sai Instead of Senju clan symbol we see the Uzumaki spiral. With all the Yin and Yang stuff we see it would be fitting I guess.

A kickass Kunoichi would be GREAT IMO but I kinda doubt that any woman apart from Kaguya could keep up with those crazy Juubi Jins. Another problem is how Kishi treated Kushina in flashbacks apart from her performance against Kurama. She was captured by some kumo guys and was basically a damsel in distress till Minato owned those guys with ease and saved her. Then she was a damsel in distress once again when Obito attacked and it was once again up to Minato to save the day.

I do not fully buy that Kishi IS a sexist BUT I've got the feeling that unless an EVIL female appears (who wants power and is not limited with romance bullshit) we wont see any sort of badassery. Kishi loves to make females as either damsels in distress, chicks that can contribute with nothing apart from being slavishly devoted to their crushes, or like Tsunade or Chiyo are quite below the ultimate top tiers.

An evil kunoichi who cares only about herself and lusts for nothing but power is our only hope IMO.


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## Rocky (Feb 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Showed she could solo Kurama while half dead. Who would rape all  the characters you listed, except maybe Minato. Though even Minato's chances, if he was in good health, are slim. If he tried to take Kurmaa on when he was half dead, he'd also be raped




She didn't defeat Kurama...

The scenario she spoke of was a mutual death. "I'll drag the Nine Tails back and die with it inside me. That should prevent it coming back for a while." Immobilizing bijuu with anti-bijuu chains isn't even that impressive. Obito did it casually, with little to no practice with the Rinnegan. 

Speaking of Obito, he subdued Kurama with the Sharingan when he was young, and I have no doubt that EMS Sasuke can do the same. Nagato just Chakra chains it (just like fellow Uzumaki's or Rinnegan users).



> - Showed enough strength as a mere Fragment of her chakra where Naruto considered her stronger than him even after gaining KCM. Naruto Post KCM is easily a rival for anyone of those characters in strength, so if Kushina is stronger in him, then her placement above those characters becomes obvious.




I don't recall Naruto ever saying such a thing. Link?

However, even if, Nagato, Rinnegan Obito, EMS Sasuke, and KCM Minato would all take a dump on a novice KCM Naruto.



> - Than we have Minato comparing BSM Naruto to Kushina. BSM Naruto would also rape the living hell out all of those characters.




Naruto would rape Nagato alone out of the listed.



> - Than we have Karin using a mere fraction of the power half dead Kushina displayed combating Hashirama's strongest Jutsu. And this recent chapter we have Juugo implying even Zetsu-DNA Orochimaru would have problems w/ Karin.




Hashirama didn't fight Karin, and Orochimaru hasn't been impressing me of late. Zetsu DNA or not, he isn't on the levels of the characters I listed.




> she casually bound Kyuubi up and said she could seal it back inside herself, defeating it, despite still being on the verge of death.




Please.

She bound it, and could've killed herself by resealing it.  That's about as impressive to me as Minato hypothetically suicide killing Hashirama with a forbidden Justu he can't even see.


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