# Strongest Person Itachi can beat



## Cognitios (Jun 21, 2014)

Who is the strongest person that Itachi can beat?
Who is the weakest person that can beat Itachi?

Include
Edo
Healthy
Sick
For both categories


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## Bonly (Jun 21, 2014)

Strongest he can beat:

Sick: Sandaime Raikage 

Edo: Tobi

Healthy: SM Naruto

Weakest that can beat him:

Sick: Jiraiya

Edo: No clue

Healthy: SM Naruto


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## Kyu (Jun 21, 2014)

> Who is the strongest person that Itachi can beat?


Defeat more times than not.

Edo- War Arc SM Naruto

Sick- 3rd Raikage

Healthy- Tobirama



> Who is the weakest person that can beat Itachi?



Edo- SM Kabuto

Sick- MS Obito

Healthy- War Arc SM Naruto


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

First you need to define "Beat".

Does "beat" equal 

1) Itachi certainly wins
2) Itachi has varying odds to win
3) Itachi has extremely low odds to win


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## Cognitios (Jun 21, 2014)

> First you need to define "Beat".
> 
> Does "beat" equal
> 
> ...


The number 2 is what I'm looking for, but whatever floats your boat.


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## Dr. White (Jun 21, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Who is the strongest person that Itachi can beat?
> Who is the weakest person that can beat Itachi?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

Honestly it's going to be the same for all three incarnations, as I don't think much changes between them in terms of who they can and can't have a chance to beat (the odds might differ, but whatever).

Itachi certainly wins - I can't see Itachi certainly beating even the weakest Kages we've seen. He'd have by far better odds of winning against someone like Mei, Ei, or Yondaime-Kazekage than they would against him, but given the absolute right conditions or if the match plays out in absolutely the right way I can still see them having a very slim chance. So to me it has to be someone bellow that "level". The characters i'm thinking of are Darui, Deidara, Chiyo, and P1-Kakashi. Pick whichever one you feel is the strongest and that's the one he certainly beats.

Itachi has varying odds to win - Itachi has veryin odds to beat any powerful Shinobi; Minato (non-Edo), Jiriaya, Tobirama, Tsunade, Yagura, Sandaime-Raikage, etc... (so pick whatever one you feel is strongest). and the list goes on. Now obviously some of them might have better odds than Itachi, to win, but it doesn't matter for the purpose of this section, as he just needs decent odds to win. The ones I can't see Itachi having decent odds of winning against are when we starting to get to ungodly levels of strength like Nagato and Edo Minato level.

Itachi has extremely low odds to win - Pan Rikudo. If Itachi had absolutely the right conditions I could see him beating Pain-Rikudo. However I can't quite ever see him beating Nagato himself.

Weakest that would certainly beat Itachi - Probably Nagato w/ Pain Rikudo. I just can't see under any scenario Itachi having enough stamina to defeat Pain-Rikudo and than challenge Nagato in a successive duel. If not Nagato than someone like Edo-Minato. Basically the guys that are a step up from very powerful Shinobi like Tobirama, but a step down from Hashirama and EMS Madara.

Weakest that would have varying odds to beat Itachi - Same as the strongest Itachi would have a chance to beat. All those powerful Shinobi, Tobirama, Minato, Jiriaya, Tsunade, etc... (Pick the weakest this time) would have okay odds to beat him.

Weakest With extremely low odds to win - I go back and forth between Rusty-Hanzo and Hidan. Rusty-Hanzo can beat anyone with very low odds, if they don't have knowledge of his poison. Hidan is kind of a bad match for Itachi because Itachi is always bleeding all the time, so maybe 1 out of 100 matches Hidan gets Itachi's blood for Vodoo before Itachi can kill him.


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## Fox91 (Jun 21, 2014)

*Strongest person Itachi can beat:*

*Sick: Hagoromo*

*Healthy: Kaguya*

*Edo: His healthy clone*

*Weakest person that can beat Itachi:*

*Sick: Kishimoto with rubber no jutsu

Healthy: Kishimoto with rubber no jutsu

Edo: Kishimoto with rubber no jutsu*


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## Nikushimi (Jun 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 3) Itachi has extremely low odds to win



It's like you are speaking a made-up language.

That sentence, what does it mean?


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> It's like you are speaking a made-up language.
> 
> That sentence, what does it mean?


It  all makes sense now. You've been illiterate this whole time. That's why your opinion on the manga makes no sense.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It  all makes sense now. You've been illiterate this whole time. That's why your opinion on the manga makes no sense.





Turrin said:


> 3) Itachi has extremely low odds to win



^You know as well as I do that a phrase like this has never appeared in the manga and never will.


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## Rain (Jun 21, 2014)

Strongest person Itachi can beat: Kaguya

Weakest person who can beat Itachi: Only Itachi can beat Itachi so i'd say Itachi.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> ^You know as well as I do that a phrase like this has never appeared in the manga and never will.


Same can be said about Konohamaru or Tonton. Though I've alway long suspect that pig to be the God of the Naruto world


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## Krippy (Jun 21, 2014)

Who he can beat:

Edo: Edo Minato

Healthy: MS Obito

Sick: SM Naruto/Tobirama


Who beats him: 

Edo: SM Kabuto

Healthy: Minato

Sick: Kirabi


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## KnightGhost (Jun 21, 2014)

Based on black zetsu statements he could beat literally anybody. He has that kind of power/skill.


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## syrup (Jun 21, 2014)

Um don't they just have to look at him and he wins? Tsukiyomi after all. Though it seems like it is a forgotten jutsu besides the giant version now. Plus given the original ability of Sharingan, to copy any jutsu he has seen, he must have a very vast amount to pull from to counter an opponent. Just as Kakashi is supposed to know a ton yet only uses a few over and over.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Same can be said about Konohamaru or Tonton. Though I've alway long suspect that pig to be the God of the Naruto world



You really need to work on that whole "making a joke" thing.

Anyway, Black Zetsu said Itachi was completely invincible, and he's been around since Hagoromo and Hamura sealed Kaguya, acting as her proxy to bear witness to the legacy of Hagoromo's Ninshuu.


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## Invictus-Kun (Jun 21, 2014)

He can beat Kaguya,


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> You really need to work on that whole "making a joke" thing.


When was I joking?



> Anyway, Black Zetsu said Itachi was completely invincible, and he's been around since Hagoromo and Hamura sealed Kaguya, acting as her proxy to bear witness to the legacy of Hagoromo's Ninshuu.


Obviously Black Zetsu was lying to White-Zetsu; after all he is known liar


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## Ersa (Jun 21, 2014)

Strongest person Edo Itachi can defeat is Minato or MS Tobi. Strongest person sick Itachi can defeat is Killer B or Jiraiya.


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## ARGUS (Jun 21, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Who is the strongest person that Itachi can beat?


Kaguya and her sons


> Who is the weakest person that can beat Itachi?


He is unbeatable as  stated by BZ who even knew Hagoromo and Kaguyas abilities


> Edo


He can beat Killer Bee, SM naruto (pein arc), DSM KAbuto with izanami, 


> Healthy


Same as above most likely, also MS Sasuke


> Sick


Jiraiya,


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## KnightGhost (Jun 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Obviously Black Zetsu was lying to White-Zetsu; after all he is known liar



I don't get it what's the point of arguing against itachi for you are you just bitter and now plan on reading manga in denial? 

The most credible character in terms of knowledge in the manga called itachi invincible there's no point of lying to yourself about it.

The whole fandom thing is stupid manga is about to be over you we're got trolled it happens.


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> I don't get it what's the point of arguing against itachi for you are you just bitter and now plan on reading manga in denial?
> 
> The most credible character in terms of knowledge in the manga called itachi invincible there's no point of lying to yourself about it.
> 
> The whole fandom thing is stupid manga is about to be over you we're got trolled it happens.


Real talk. Itachi-fans are the ones that got trolled. You guys wanted Itachi to be top 5; but now he'd be lucky if he made it into the top 20 by the end of the series. In-fact Itachi's standings in the power-rankings was the whole reason you liked him in the first place and now you can't cope. This is very apparent in the fact that you Itachi-fans feel the need to make hundreds of threads twisting facts just to try and pretend he's still top 5. 

I will agree fandoms are stupid, which is why I don't make a hundred threads per day to praise any of my favorite characters as the second coming.

Edit: In-fact I think every contentious assertion Itachi-fans have ever made has been proven wrong by the manga cannon, except Itachi breaking free from Edo-Tensei; kudos that's a batting average of about 1 out of a million


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## Bonly (Jun 22, 2014)

Generalizing. Generalizing everywhere


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 22, 2014)

Oh yea

The weakest that can beat 
Sick: Gaara/Ohnoki
Edo: Killer Bee
Healthy: Not sure really as we haven't seen him.


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## Azula (Jun 22, 2014)

Kisame


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## Alex Payne (Jun 22, 2014)

_Strongest he can beat:
_
 Edo: Nagato

 Healthy: Minato/Tobirama

 Sick: Pre-KCM Naruto


_Weakest that can beat him:_

 Sick: Danzo-fight Sasuke

 Edo: MS Obito

 Healthy: MS War Arc Kakashi



Turrin said:


> Real talk. Itachi-fans are the ones that got trolled. You guys wanted Itachi to be top 5; but now he'd be lucky if he made it into the top 20 by the end of the series. In-fact Itachi's standings in the power-rankings was the whole reason you liked him in the first place and now you can't cope. This is very apparent in the fact that you Itachi-fans feel the need to make hundreds of threads twisting facts just to try and pretend he's still top 5.
> 
> I will agree fandoms are stupid, which is why I don't make a hundred threads per day to praise any of my favorite characters as the second coming.
> 
> Edit: In-fact I think every contentious assertion Itachi-fans have ever made has been proven wrong by the manga cannon, except Itachi breaking free from Edo-Tensei; kudos that's a batting average of about 1 out of a million


Hearing that from you... .


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## Akitō (Jun 22, 2014)

The strongest that he can beat while he's an Edo Tensei is Nagato or SM Kabuto, although I'd favor Nagato and Kabuto over him still. The strongest that he can beat while he's healthy is Minato. And the strongest he can beat while he's sick is Jiraiya.


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## Nerise (Jun 22, 2014)




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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2014)

Strongest he can beat:

Edo: Kirabi

Healthy: Muu

Sick: Muu


Weakest that can beat him:

Sick: Tayuya

Edo: SM Jiraiya

Healthy: SM Jiraiya


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Hearing that from you... .


The really funny thing about citing this, is that I most used that title to gain attention for my theory about how Yoton and In'ton will end up interacting, which actually does seem to be the case (with some deviations). What's even funnier about it, is that thread sparked chief Itachi fan Divi betting me about how Itachi was going to perform. Saying Itachi was going to show a Kirin "level" non-Sharingan Jutsu, and Divi lost the bet horribly and pretty much everything I said Itachi would demonstrated turned out to be right. So really the thread end up being wrong more so because Naruto hadn't developed his Yo'ton to the point I thought he had. In the end his Yo'ton development is the reason that he's far beyond Itachi and he would now troll the hell out of him because of it, in a fight. But sure if you want to call that as me being wrong, than go right ahead; that's what 1 time out of the thousands of times Itachi-fans have been wrong. Lest we forget:

Itachi will be as strong as Minato because they are parallels
Itachi can use Senjutsu
Itachi's Tsukuyomi is the strongest Genjutsu
Amaterasu is the strongest Ninjutsu
Sound Based Genjutsu wouldn't work against Itachi
Itachi could defeat all 9 Bijuu
Itachi is a Senju Uchiha hybrid
Itachi can use Kotoamatsukami
There's no way under any circumstances Konan could beat Itachi
There's no way under any circumstances Zetsu could beat Itachi
Sharingan > Rinnegan
No way Byakugan could ever compete with even the lower end stages of Sharingan
Mangekyo Sharingan is the ultimate Dojutsu
Susano'o is indestructible
Itachi is as strong as Nagato

My personal Fav: Living Itachi much stronger than Edo Itachi

Need I go on lol


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 22, 2014)

Itachi place would be somewhere between where the wankers and haters place him. 



I generally put healthy itachi around base minato's level.


He may be slightly weaker give or take depends on knowledge and etc.


he's high tier but not top tier, generally he's in that space between sannin and nagato level. 

With no knowledge on him he's a very dangerous opponent.


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## iJutsu (Jun 22, 2014)

Unless Kishi says otherwise, Totsuka blitz soloes everybody.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The really funny thing about citing this, is that I most used that title to gain attention for my theory about how Yoton and In'ton will end up interacting, which actually does seem to be the case (with some deviations). What's even funnier about it, is that thread sparked chief Itachi fan Divi betting me about how Itachi was going to perform. Saying Itachi was going to show a Kirin "level" non-Sharingan Jutsu, and Divi lost the bet horribly and pretty much everything I said Itachi would demonstrated turned out to be right. So really the thread end up being wrong more so because Naruto hadn't developed his Yo'ton to the point I thought he had. In the end his Yo'ton development is the reason that he's far beyond Itachi and he would now troll the hell out of him because of it, in a fight. But sure if you want to call that as me being wrong, than go right ahead; that's what 1 time out of the thousands of times Itachi-fans have been wrong. Lest we forget:
> 
> Itachi will be as strong as Minato because they are parallels
> Itachi can use Senjutsu
> ...


Your theory was hilariously wrong. There is no way around it. 

As for your so called Itachi-theories - I remember most of them. Some of those were jokes/trolling. Some of those were true at the time. Some of those are still up to debate. Some was biased ramblings. And some you have twisted around. 

But it doesn't matter. Fanbase do not in any form affect a discussion about imaginary match up. There was no point of bringing up the whole fanbase like you did. OP asked for an opinion. That is(or should be) based on manga and your interpretation of said manga. That's all. 

You've got baited by a simple troll attack and retaliated by dissing the whole character's fanbase. Using terrible generalization. While also trying to use said attack as an argument about how Itachi "really" performs in battles.
Moreover - you've made dozens of theories and predictions over time. A good deal of them were wrong. And yet you use the same thing you are "guilty" of to bash not just one person but a large group of people. 

If "Itachi-tards" really were as outlandish and stupid as you you've tried to portray - they would have been ignored. Simply posting crazy wank won't get you anywhere. Unless it is about Neji. Oh, well.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 22, 2014)

Around Jiraiya level. He never really exceeds that.


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Your theory was hilariously wrong. There is no way around it.


Okay, I'll remember this when Kishi goes deeper into Yin and Yang. And if he ever explains the origin of Itachi's illness. All of which were components of that theory.



> As for your so called Itachi-theories - I remember most of them. Some of those were jokes/trolling. Some of those were true at the time. Some of those are still up to debate. Some was biased ramblings. And some you have twisted around.



We all have predictions and many of them are wrong. So people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Do you want me quoting your shit that was wrong, obviously not, as you got all upset even when I did it on an extremely general level.



> But it doesn't matter. Fanbase do not in any form affect a discussion about imaginary match up. There was no point of bringing up the whole fanbase like you did. OP asked for an opinion. That is(or should be) based on manga and your interpretation of said manga. That's all.


Why don't you go complain to Knights Ghost and Nikushimi about this shit. Oh wait, I know why, because they are Itachi-fanboys, and therefore get a free pass. Than your going to talk to me about bias, really dude, just stop.



> You've got baited by a simple troll attack and retaliated by dissing the whole character's fanbase.


Lol baited, it was Knights Ghost and Nikushimi that got baited and buthurt , and what's really funny is I I didn't even have to do anything to intentionally bait them, just answer the OPings question. But they couldn't handle "Itachi has a low chance of beating someone", so here we are.

On the other hand I give no fucks about what they said, I just think it's funny to reply to them some times. 

You can tell when I give a darn, because I write an actual detailed response; like i'm writing to you. But your constantly favoritism towards Itachi-fans while attacking me, is slowly pushing you down to the give no fucks category.



> Using terrible generalization


Blame mods, they ban me every time I try to separate the majority of Itachi-fans, from the few respectable Itachi-fans, utilizing certain terminology, which again I can't say because I'd be banned. Hence why I have no other way to it say it other than Itachi-fans.



> While also trying to use said attack as an argument about how Itachi "really" performs in battles.


lol, I don't even know what your referring to here; that's how far removed from reality this is.



> Moreover - you've made dozens of theories and predictions over time. A good deal of them were wrong. And yet you use the same thing you are "guilty" of to bash not just one person but a large group of people.


Here's the difference AP. I make theories in good fun and many are not even serious, but just thoughts. You don't see me going around however and making a hundreds of theories about my fav character and than utilizing said theories as facts for why said character beats another. Than harassing people because they don't agree with my theories. 

Additionally I find this incredibly funny, considering you were the one who directly did this, not me, by quoting one of my theories. Other wise you can please find me where I quote one of your post and threw it back in your face. All I said was Itachi-fans have been more wrong than I have, and threw out some general examples. Didn't name names, didn't neg rep, didn't link your posts that were proved wrong etc.... So please spare me this playing the victim non sense.



> If "Itachi-tards" really were as outlandish and stupid as you you've tried to portray - they would have been ignored. Simply posting crazy wank won't get you anywhere. Unless it is about Neji. Oh, well.


You know as well as I do if I constructed a essay on why Zabuza > Itachi it wouldn't be ignored. Would that mean it's any-less outlandish or stupid?


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## Veracity (Jun 22, 2014)

Strongest that he can beat:

Edo: Kabuto Arc Sasuke or Pain Arc Sage Naruto 

Healthy: Killer Bee or Jirayia.

Sick: Tsunade or Kisame.

Weakest that can beat Itachi:

Edo: Tobirama or War Arc Sage Naruto.

Healthy: Base Minato 

Sick: MS Obito.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Strongest that he can beat:
> 
> Edo: Kabuto Arc Sasuke or Pain Arc Sage Naruto
> 
> ...


 
MS Obito will school Itachi. Any version of his won't cut it.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 22, 2014)

Edo ~ I'd say he has a good shot at defeating Pain with the right knowledge , w/o Knowledge I would say 3rd Raikage 


Sick~ I'd say Pain Arc Kakashi 


Healthy~ Pain w knowledge , 3rd Raikage w/o




Weakest That Could Beat him 


Edo ~ Killer Bee

Sick~ War Arc Kakashi

Healthy~ Killer Bee


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## Sadgoob (Jun 22, 2014)

Didn't an entity who's been recording ninja history since Kaguya's time say that Itachi was completely invincible? I'm pretty sure those were the weapons that schooled Nagato the _instant_ they came into play too.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Didn't an entity who's been recording ninja history since Kaguya's time say that Itachi was completely invincible?
> 
> Oh yeah.



Yeah because I'm pretty sure at that point in the story, Kishi wanted us to believe Kaguya was a major villain and zetsu was her son


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## Sadgoob (Jun 22, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah because I'm pretty sure at that point in the story, Kishi wanted us to believe Kaguya was a major villain and zetsu was her son



It's a twist. A twist that validates the infinite hype of Itachi and his weapons. Sasuke needs the Totsuka to beat Katsuyu Kaguya.


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## Trojan (Jun 22, 2014)

He can beat Oro by himself, he loses to everyone else above Oro.
(without ET obviously)


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 22, 2014)

tbh while I believe he can beat Orochimaru, him beating him the way he did in canon was PIS and CIS on Orochimaru's part, he was cockier than he's ever been and way more open to attack than he's ever been. Orochimaru always has backup plans and ways to get out of danger and now suddenly he can't do jack shit and used an extremely weak snake  technique on Itachi and thinks he'll win?


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## Thunder (Jun 22, 2014)

Base Itachi (healthy / sick) defeats anyone who hasn't broken Itachi's genjutsu on panel.

Mangekyō / Edo Itachi defeats anyone. Because Zetsu said Susanō + Totsuka no Tsurugi  + Yata no Kagami  = invincibility. 

Going by this logic no character can defeat Itachi. So your second scenario isn't applicable.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 22, 2014)

Probably Minato, by feats/hype.​​


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## Trojan (Jun 22, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Probably Minato, by feats/hype.​​



what feats and what hype makes him defeat Minato? 
by hype the best he can do is a tie with Jiraiya. U_U


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## Ersa (Jun 22, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> lol at people saying itachi could beat nagato


It's possible.

Given a favourable location and knowledge advantage I could see Itachi (Edo) perhaps pulling off a sneaky win. I agree however it's very unlikely and I'd peg Nagato to win almost all the time given how versatile and how much firepower he holds. But if we're looking strictly at the question, Edo Itachi could defeat Nagato.

I personally didn't list Nagato because in I felt in neutral conditions that Itachi (irregardless of form) would lose but I don't think it's ridiculous to put Nagato there.


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## Cognitios (Jun 22, 2014)

Itachi can beat Nagato if Nagato is immobile and Itachi has a proper starting distance.


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## Trojan (Jun 22, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi can beat Nagato if Nagato is immobile and Itachi has a proper starting distance.



+ Naruto and B to his side & Nagato having fake Rinnegan and without his mind.

itachi then can win. U_U


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## Thunder (Jun 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Finally, somebody gets it. But seriously. His genjutsu is underestimated. Rash ninja, like A, could definitely be punked like Deidara with a little twist of perception permitted by Itachi's finger or eyes.



A is rash, but he's also quicker and more reflexive than Itachi (arguably ) So if Itachi want's to genjutsu A he'll need to do what Madara did and stop  him from moving with _Susanō_ first. 

I think that's reasonable.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 22, 2014)

Thunder said:


> A is rash, but he's also quicker and more reflexive than Itachi (arguably ) So if Itachi want's to genjutsu A he'll need to do what Madara did and stop  him from moving with _Susanō_ first.
> 
> I think that's reasonable.



Unless A is standing still and screaming smack. Like he's doing 95% of the time.


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## Cognitios (Jun 22, 2014)

If Itachi is standing 10 meters away then yes he can beat Nagato.
Momentarily stun with finger genjutsu then materialize Susanoo with lighting speed and totsuka him


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## Cognitios (Jun 22, 2014)

If Itachi is standing 10 meters away then yes he can beat Nagato.
Momentarily stun with finger genjutsu then materialize Susanoo with lighting speed and totsuka him


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jun 22, 2014)

We saw Itachi keeping up with and countering the rejuvenated Edo Nagato (who, due to the rejuvenation, is probably a decent approximation of a Healthy Nagato).  So I would say that Healthy/Rejuvenated Edo Nagato is a good benchmark for the strongest person Itachi could beat.  

As for the weakest person who can beat Itachi, I would actually say Kisame.  His sensing when fused with Samehada would allow him to fight with his eyes closed (negating the threat of Tsukiyomi) and to detect the chakra buildup that precedes Amaterasu (negating the usual Catch-22 of "if you avoid looking at his eyes you can't see the blood-tear and thus will get blindsided by Amaterasu").  Suiton: Sameodori effectively gives Kisame a huge speed boost by letting him use his swim speed instead of his walking/running speed.  That jutsu would also be constantly draining Itachi's chakra.  There's also the threat of drowning, of course, which Itachi could potentially negate by erecting Susano'o, but the Sameodori would presumably drain the chakra out of that as well.  And since Susano'o use drains Itachi's life-force, making him maintain it constantly to avoid drowning would progressively weaken Itachi as the battle goes on.  Daikodan could also potentially consume the entirety of Susano'o in one go (though perhaps not the Yata mirror).  And both of Itachi's elemental proficiencies would be of limited use here": suiton since Kisame could just turn the water away by manipulating it with his own suiton, and katon since suiton>katon.  Kisame just has the right skills/tools to make him a really bad matchup for Itachi.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 22, 2014)

He's not beating Nagato, unless Nagato stands there like a dumbass and does nothing


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2014)

I really don't see how people can cite Nagato when Itachi clearly needed help to defeat him. Itachi may have known the counters, but he needed aid getting them to work.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jun 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I really don't see how people can cite Nagato when Itachi clearly needed help to defeat him. Itachi may have known the counters, but he needed aid getting them to work.



To me, it looked more like he was the one helping Naruto and Bee--having Susano'o save them when Nagato was about to blast them with Asura lasers, figuring out how to deal with Chibaku Tensei, etc.


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2014)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> To me, it looked more like he was the one helping Naruto and Bee--having Susano'o save them when Nagato was about to blast them with Asura lasers, figuring out how to deal with Chibaku Tensei, etc.


I agree with this. Itachi was the one helping Naruto and B. However we need to remember Kabuto's focus was on Naruto and B, since he wanted their Bijuu. Itachi had the advantage of seeing how Naruto and B were defeated and using that knowledge to save them. Basically he was smarter than them and circumstances advantaged him. However when Nagato use Chibaku Tensei he relied on them to help him overcome it. In that sense both parties helped each other and Itachi came out of it looking the best, because he was the smartest, best team leader, etc.... Very Shikkkamaru of him. But would he have won on his own, I struggle to see how, when the author made a point of him needing the others help to deal with Chibaku Tensei.


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## Dr. White (Jun 22, 2014)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> As for the weakest person who can beat Itachi, I would actually say Kisame.  His sensing when fused with Samehada would allow him to fight with his eyes closed (negating the threat of Tsukiyomi) and to detect the chakra buildup that precedes Amaterasu (negating the usual Catch-22 of "if you avoid looking at his eyes you can't see the blood-tear and thus will get blindsided by Amaterasu").  Suiton: Sameodori effectively gives Kisame a huge speed boost by letting him use his swim speed instead of his walking/running speed.  That jutsu would also be constantly draining Itachi's chakra.  There's also the threat of drowning, of course, which Itachi could potentially negate by erecting Susano'o, but the Sameodori would presumably drain the chakra out of that as well.  And since Susano'o use drains Itachi's life-force, making him maintain it constantly to avoid drowning would progressively weaken Itachi as the battle goes on.  Daikodan could also potentially consume the entirety of Susano'o in one go (though perhaps not the Yata mirror).  And both of Itachi's elemental proficiencies would be of limited use here": suiton since Kisame could just turn the water away by manipulating it with his own suiton, and katon since suiton>katon.  Kisame just has the right skills/tools to make him a really bad matchup for Itachi.



I disagree. Kishi made it pretty evident that Kisame was the weaker one and he referred to him almost as an elder, despite being older than Itachi. That says alot about them. Kisame does not last long enough past initial contact to be able to fuse. Itachi is quicker, can dodge his kenjutsu, match his suitons (and predict him and out jutsu like kakashi did to Zabuza.), and his MS truly trumps Kisame's Shark arsenal. Amaterasu ends him before and after he fuses, Tsukuymoi is a constant threat, and Kisame really has no way past Susano.


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## Kai (Jun 22, 2014)

Most will disagree, but I'd say a healthy Itachi in both body and eyesight is able to push Pain to the limit, and would even be given my favor for an extreme difficulty win. Nagato, on the other hand, is on another level beyond that and was portrayed of that order in the Dojutsu vs. Jins fight, even after Itachi had switched sides. 

If Kishi really wanted to illustrate Itachi as being capable of handling Nagato by himself, that's probably what would have happened as Naruto and Bee continued vigorously to the war front. This set up of main characters proceeding to the next stage while a character stays back and fights an opponent has been a textbook formula by Kishimoto throughout the entire series. The fact that all three characters stayed to fight Nagato without other variables confining them to stay, can only speak volumes of Nagato's power. Itachi would need Susano'o for just the conventional Six Paths offense of Nagato — once Nagato brings his gravitational trump cards into the fray, Itachi has no chance to survive without allies with greater firepower.

At least with the Six Paths of Pain, Itachi has more opportunities to take out the corpses with Susano'o and Amaterasu while the power of Nagato is divided. The corpses of the individual Pains also lack the physical reactions of Nagato himself in one vessel (see Konohomaru vs. Naraka).

So yeah, count me as part of the Nagato > Itachi > Pain camp.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2014)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> We saw Itachi keeping up with and countering the rejuvenated Edo Nagato (who, due to the rejuvenation, is probably a decent approximation of a Healthy Nagato).  So I would say that Healthy/Rejuvenated Edo Nagato is a good benchmark for the strongest person Itachi could beat.
> 
> As for the weakest person who can beat Itachi, I would actually say Kisame.  His sensing when fused with Samehada would allow him to fight with his eyes closed (negating the threat of Tsukiyomi) and to detect the chakra buildup that precedes Amaterasu (negating the usual Catch-22 of "if you avoid looking at his eyes you can't see the blood-tear and thus will get blindsided by Amaterasu").  Suiton: Sameodori effectively gives Kisame a huge speed boost by letting him use his swim speed instead of his walking/running speed.  That jutsu would also be constantly draining Itachi's chakra.  There's also the threat of drowning, of course, which Itachi could potentially negate by erecting Susano'o, but the Sameodori would presumably drain the chakra out of that as well.  And since Susano'o use drains Itachi's life-force, making him maintain it constantly to avoid drowning would progressively weaken Itachi as the battle goes on.  Daikodan could also potentially consume the entirety of Susano'o in one go (though perhaps not the Yata mirror).  And both of Itachi's elemental proficiencies would be of limited use here": suiton since Kisame could just turn the water away by manipulating it with his own suiton, and katon since suiton>katon.  Kisame just has the right skills/tools to make him a really bad matchup for Itachi.



If we are talking with the manga perspective in mind, Kisame went from challenging and attempting to bully Itachi to calling him "Itachi-san." 

I am pretty sure he got his ass handed to him @ some point.

With the BD perspective, even if you think he can sense Amaterasu coming, he can't do anything about it. He doesn't have the capability of dodging/tanking or getting rid of it.

Also I am 100% sure yata would negate everything Kisame threw @ him.


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## Thunder (Jun 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Unless A is standing still and screaming smack. Like he's doing 95% of the time.



A can afford to stand still and flex because his reflexes are kind of good.

And personally I assume these characters are operating with perfect resolve. Meaning they won't sit around and stare / chat with each other. They want to see blood and stuff. Well, maybe not Itachi because he's a pacifist.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 22, 2014)

Thunder said:


> A can afford to stand still and flex because his reflexes are kind of good.
> 
> And personally I assume these characters are operating with perfect resolve. Meaning they won't sit around and stare / chat with each other. They want to see blood and stuff. Well, maybe not Itachi because he's a pacifist.



It's Itachi's style to elicit conversation from his opponents, slowing down the pace of battle and allowing him to defeat them concisely.


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## Thunder (Jun 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> It's Itachi's style to elicit conversation from his opponents, slowing down the pace of battle and allowing him to defeat them concisely.



Yeah, but Itachi doesn't even lift. Unless the convo steers in that direction A won't listen.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi can beat Nagato if Nagato is immobile and Itachi has a proper starting distance.



You forgot to also add:

- If Nagato has a fake Rinnegan
- If Nagato has Kabuto level knowledge of his abilities
- If Itachi has Naruto and Bee's powers


Daenerys Stormborn said:


> We saw Itachi keeping up with and countering the rejuvenated Edo Nagato (who, due to the rejuvenation, is probably a decent approximation of a Healthy Nagato).  So I would say that Healthy/Rejuvenated Edo Nagato is a good benchmark for the strongest person Itachi could beat.



That is a bad benchmark because of all the limitations Nagato had on him. Furthermore the fact Itachi had comrades whom were stronger than himself. 

If you want a decent approximation of a healthy Nagato: Kabuto suggested that this hindered Nagato would have _beaten_ Itachi and two _perfect_ Jinchuriki if he was mobile. That is a mobile, held back, Nagato using weakened Six Paths could beat a enhanced Itachi and two perfect Jinchuriki.

If anything Kishimoto has gone the extra mile to portray Itachi below Nagato.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

Vice said:


> Holy shit, I've avoided this thread because I knew the responses were going to be terrible, but literally 90% of the posts here need to be deleted as trash.



Including yours.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You forgot to also add:
> 
> - If Nagato has a fake Rinnegan



If Nagato had a fake Rinnegan, then Itachi had a fake Sharingan. 

It doesn't matter though, because their powers were the same as they had been in life (although Nagato apparently didn't have the Gedo Mazo).



> That is a bad benchmark because of all the limitations Nagato had on him.



I agree, that was a bad showing for Nagato because he wasn't in control, the intel distribution wasn't complete, and Itachi did have help destroying one of Nagato's Jutsu.



> Furthermore the fact Itachi had comrades whom were stronger than himself.



Neither KCM Naruto with his chakra divided by 13 nor Killer B were stronger than Edo Itachi; it would be a stretch even to say they were stronger than living Itachi.



> If you want a decent approximation of a healthy Nagato: Kabuto suggested that this hindered Nagato would have _beaten_ Itachi and two _perfect_ Jinchuriki if he was mobile.



That's not at all what Kabuto suggested; he suggested the Totsuka might have been avoided. What would have happened after that is anybody's guess, but it can be said with near certainty Nagato would have lost 3-vs.-1 with Kabuto in control, regardless of physical condition. Kabuto thought he was going to win that fight with Nagato the way he was and he thought he was going to beat the Uchiha Bros.; he was wrong on both counts, so even if he did believe mobility would have made a difference in the outcome, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.



> That is a mobile, held back, Nagato using weakened Six Paths could beat a enhanced Itachi and two perfect Jinchuriki.



No, he couldn't; not even close.

Nagato in an ideal state might beat those three if he hit them all at once with a surprise attack. Otherwise, no.



> If anything Kishimoto has gone the extra mile to portray Itachi below Nagato.



Hardly; Kishimoto has made no direct comparison between the two. Anything you've interpreted from their feats is strictly subjective.


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## Cognitios (Jun 23, 2014)

> Holy shit, I've avoided this thread because I knew the responses were going to be terrible, but literally 90% of the posts here need to be deleted as trash.


And I assume your post is one of the 10% that isn't trash?
Don't come into a thread and just say all the posts are trash while you are doing the exact same thing.
At least their contributing to some level.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

Vice said:


> Saying Itachi can beat the likes of Kaguya and 8th Gate Guy, even in jest, isn't contributing to shit.



What do you mean, "in jest"?


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## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If anything Kishimoto has gone the extra mile to portray Itachi below Nagato.



Niku covered the points I don't have to make for the rest of the post,  but as for this.
-Itachi is the only one brought back to assist Nagato. He tells Nagato he knew more than he thought and Nagato admits he knew little about him (indicating a new found respect or atleast perspective on the person), he also mentions both their powers were truly special and together they could do anything (Indicating they both are hax but like yin and yang fufill what the other lacks.). I see no inferiority in a literary or symbolical manner.

They talk very casually almost as if friends, neither signaling terms of honor (sama) or rank. Kabuto considered Nagato his silver piece and Itachi his bronze (which he would later call his most coveted piece.). Nagato indirectly praises Itachi's genjutsu even.
-Itachi is the first one to engage the other team. Albeit he is emaciated, nagato shows panels later he has ways around his weaknesses.
-Nagato in complete shock that Itachi was way more than his top dog employee.
-Kishi has Peins best summon no diffed by Itachi.
-Nagato hit by Amaterasu and completely disabled (note he was not holding back or in control as seen here)
-After Kabuto takes over and everyone gets blasted, Itachi is the one to figure the summons
-Itachi non-chalantly saves them and cuts up Nagato's mecha path
-Kishi has Itachi Joke around with Naruto right after he instantly deduces CT. Itachi literally has time to give Naruto a lesson during this. 
-Then Kishi has Itachi take advantage of Nagato's CT being busted, and seal him. He even has Nagato apologize specifically to him, and has Itachi grant him last words.

-Then Itachi goes and ends ET and HnJ's Kabuto.

What about that indicates Itachi being inferior?

From a writers standpoint, you really think Kishi was trying to portray thoughts like
"Itachi is clearly inferior to Nagato"
"Itachi needed help against Nagato"
"Itachi isn't on par with Nagato even if just slightly weaker."

I don't see it. I see cerberus getting low diffed, along with Emaciated Nagato (who was still strong enough to occupy KCM Naruto), then Itachi (after being snuck by Kabuto) sifting through Nagato's skillset like a kid in a crayon box, and ultimately taking care of Kabuto and his arsenal barring Madara.

What do we take from this? Itachi is clearly on par with Nagato somewhere in between his emaciated form, and his healthy self. Itachi didn't have them paired together, and have Nagato realize how deep Itachi truly is for nothing. From a combat standpoint Itachi dealt with all his moves, and CT (Nagato's trump card) is the only favorable way for Nagato put Itachi down. Which means Nagato would probably be pushed into using it.


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## Fox91 (Jun 23, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Niku covered the points I don't have to make for the rest of the post,  but as for this.
> -Itachi is the only one brought back to assist Nagato. He tells Nagato he knew more than he thought and Nagato admits he knew little about him (indicating a new found respect or atleast perspective on the person), he also mentions both their powers were truly special and together they could do anything (Indicating they both are hax but like yin and yang fufill what the other lacks.). I see ninferiority in a literary or symbolical manner.
> 
> They talk very casually almost as if friends, neither signaling terms of honor (sama) or rank. Kabuto considered Nagato his silver piece and Itachi his bronze (which he would later call his most coveted piece.). Nagato indirectly praises Itachi's genjutsu even.
> ...



That is a good analysis.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

ShinobisWill said:


> He means you, the jester.



Don't look at me; look at Kishi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2014)

Itachi can't beat Pain either. He's among the many shinobi who cannot take all six of them together, unhindered.



Nikushimi said:


> If Nagato had a fake Rinnegan, then Itachi had a fake Sharingan.
> 
> It doesn't matter though, because their powers were the same as they had been in life (although Nagato apparently didn't have the Gedo Mazo).



Fake Sharingan is reaching on your end: Madara showed that fake Sharingan could use its max power. Itachi has significantly less Sharingan power than Madara; Itachi's fake Sharingan = his real Sharingan.

We saw clearly that the Rinnegan, if it was seemed fake, could not use its max powers. That's why we saw no Gedo Mazo, for example. The comment paired with it suggests a fake Rinnegan simply cannot replicate the lengths of power the real one has.

It matters a ton for Rinnegan users.



> Neither KCM Naruto with his chakra divided by 13 nor Killer B were stronger than Edo Itachi; it would be a stretch even to say they were stronger than living Itachi.



Itachi actually fled from Bee and Kabuto purposely paired the strongest Edo Tensei in the battlefield against Naruto. Obviously the puppet master (Kabuto) believed KCM Naruto>Itachi.

It wouldn't be a stretch to say they were stronger than living Itachi, who (without Susanoo) was beneath Hebi Sasuke. One could even argue with full knowledge, Hebi Sasuke would beat Itachi.



> That's not at all what Kabuto suggested; he suggested the Totsuka might have been avoided. What would have happened after that is anybody's guess, but it can be said with near certainty Nagato would have lost 3-vs.-1 with Kabuto in control, regardless of physical condition. Kabuto thought he was going to win that fight with Nagato the way he was and he thought he was going to beat the Uchiha Bros.; he was wrong on both counts, so even if he did believe mobility would have made a difference in the outcome, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.



He never said anything about Totsuka. He just said Nagato wasn't mobile enough; he didn't specify Totsuka. What he did say way mobility was a big issue - it means a lot when powerful shinobi cannot move. 
You could say Nagato could have lost, but you'd be wrong as it goes against what Kabuto was suggesting. 

Kabuto believed he could win with Nagato, but then blamed Nagato's mobility (the Itachi praise was an extension of the mobility problem). Ergo the simple/obvious point is: mobility was the sole reason the hindered Nagato lost.

He believed he could beat the Uchiha bros, true. However he obviously underestimated EMS Sasuke's level; he was correct about being leaps and bounds above Itachi. 

In the Nagato case, it was doubtlessly true when you consider all the handicaps Nagato had. Especially useful in a thread like this wherein you've got to consider all factors if you're going to say that Itachi would fight a unrestricted Nagato.


> No, he couldn't; not even close.
> 
> Nagato in an ideal state might beat those three if he hit them all at once with a surprise attack. Otherwise, no.



Funny enough, there's a wealth of evidence that suggests he could. We saw his crippled mobility was amazing. Madara showed the extent of the Rinnegan's Ninjutsu mastery which is generalisable to Nagato who accomplished the same mastery feat; we saw with normal Ninjutsu functions, like sensing, Nagato is capable of surpassing an entire platoon (which speaks volumes of his skill). 
There's also the fact that there's a notable difference between fake Rinnegan and real Rinnegan. 

In an _ideal_ state Nagato would have _destroyed_ those three. Ergo he would destroy any variant of Itachi. Why? Kishimoto wanted us to open our minds to the fact that Nagato's mobility would have changed the outcome of the battle. I.E. a mobile hindered Nagato using just the Six Paths would beat all 3 shinobi.

Of course we're led to believe a mobile hindered Nagato using just the Six Paths from a fake Rinnegan could take all 3. Therefore a mobile Nagato with a fake Rinnegan just using the Six Paths would demolish Itachi.

Actually a crippled Nagato with a fake Rinnegan could take Itachi. He did "kill" Edo Itachi after all, with one Shinra Tensei.



> Hardly; Kishimoto has made no direct comparison between the two. Anything you've interpreted from their feats is strictly subjective.



The only subjectivity is the speculation Itachi could compete on that level.

Kabuto, Kishimoto, pegged mobility as the sole reason Nagato loss. Therefore Nagato would not have lost if he had mobility. It is really that simple. 

An example of a subjective interpretation would be that Kishimoto made that comment for shits and giggles.

If Kishimoto wanted us to believe a mobile hindered Nagato would still have lost (an unsupported subjective example at its finest), he would have *not* mentioned the mobility factor. He would have just said something like "Itachi is too good" and left it at that.

Instead he made the effort to highlight that mobility was the reason Nagato lost. The only objective interpretation to that is just that: mobility was the only reason Nagato lost.

All the extra bonus points Nagato has on his side just happen to support the case very well.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I see no inferiority in a literary or symbolical manner.



One was the leader of Akatsuki and the other was a subordinate. One had the Rinnegan and the other had a diluted version of the eye. That's to name a few examples.

There's plenty of literally and symbolic evidence for Nagato>Itachi. What you cited was essentially nonsensical evidence. That is you're using very weak evidence to support something said evidence doesn't even suggest.

Hidan trash talked Pain, am I meant to believe Hidan>>>Nagato because of that? 



> From a writers standpoint, you really think Kishi was trying to portray thoughts like
> "Itachi is clearly inferior to Nagato"
> "Itachi needed help against Nagato"
> "Itachi isn't on par with Nagato even if just slightly weaker."



Those were exactly what Kishimoto was portraying. Your evidence against that was not very convincing.



> What do we take from this?



I take from this that you speculated heavily while using little evidence, all of which do not suggest that you're saying they suggest.

My critique of your argument is *exactly the same* as it was with the Jiraiya thread: you have severely overestimated the Itachi factors while severely underestimating all the opposition's factors.

Put another way: I don't consider your argument convincing at all for the very same reason I didn't consider your reasoning to be convincing in the Jiraiya vs Itachi thread.


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## Ersa (Jun 23, 2014)

This Fake Rinnegan is seriously overplayed, it's power was never noted to be anything different except it couldn't summon the Mazo. Naruto even mentioned Nagato's jutsu as an Edo Tensei were so far beyond the Paths it wasn't funny and he casually steamrolled Naruto and B. Let's not downplay Edo Nagato here, he operates on a different level to the Paths.

Sure, Itachi had help and I'd honestly agree that does suggest Nagato himself is stronger. But let's not downplay how strong Edo Nagato is or how Itachi was indeed the main factor in his defeat. It doesn't put him above Nagato but this fight indicated to me at least Kishimoto put Itachi above his old place of around Jiraiya to somewhere higher as he had Jiraiya get rolled by a vastly weaker enemy in a favourable location for him (Itachi even figured out shared vision much quicker then Jman and his Sages did).


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## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi can't beat Pain either. He's among the many shinobi who cannot take all six of them together, unhindered.


I really lol'd. I really did. 





> Fake Sharingan is reaching on your end: Madara showed that fake Sharingan could use its max power. Itachi has significantly less Sharingan power than Madara; Itachi's fake Sharingan = his real Sharingan.


Every edo is weaker than living self. Itachi's real eyes like Nagato's were taken after his death and before his revival. So he would suffer any power loss just like Nagato did, and he was fine without it. 



> We saw clearly that the Rinnegan, if it was seemed fake, could not use its max powers. That's why we saw no Gedo Mazo, for example. The comment paired with it suggests a fake Rinnegan simply cannot replicate the lengths of power the real one has.


Everyone knows Gedo Mazou full power Nagato can beat Itachi. Nagato used pretty much every thing else relevant, Human, ghost, Deva, Animal, etc and none of them were indicated not towork. 



> It matters a ton for Rinnegan users.


If they wanna summon the Gedo. Nothing else is really changed.





> Itachi actually fled from Bee and Kabuto purposely paired the strongest Edo Tensei in the battlefield against Naruto. Obviously the puppet master (Kabuto) believed KCM Naruto>Itachi.


Itachi fled from Bee in CqC, which was the smartest thing to do considering he didn't have a weapon and was facing Kill Bee a kenjutsu master. He was still able to get away from Killer Bee multiple times, genjutsu him, and dodge his kenjutsu whilst locked up with KCM Naruto. So please don't try implying kishi was portraying killer bee as too much for Itachi.

-He obviously thought having MS and Rinnengan was a great combo, and Itachi was the best choice to aid Nagato as they knew eachother, and Nagato needed someone to walk him. He also knew another Jin was there.



> It wouldn't be a stretch to say they were stronger than living Itachi, who (without Susanoo) was beneath Hebi Sasuke. One could even argue with full knowledge, Hebi Sasuke would beat Itachi.




Itachi uses full power Tsukuyomi and ends Sasuke's life from the moment Hebi Sasuke was stupid enough to stare into his eyes.

Full knowledge Sasuke has no way around Amaterasu. Sasuke's only chance is kirin and he gets felled way before that considering the skill difference.





> He never said anything about Totsuka. He just said Nagato wasn't mobile enough; he didn't specify Totsuka. What he did say way mobility was a big issue - it means a lot when powerful shinobi cannot move.
> You could say Nagato could have lost, but you'd be wrong as it goes against what Kabuto was suggesting.


-Kabuto thought he was on the road to victory multiple times. He was cumming his pants when Revival path gate was up and Naruto's soul was being ripped, and Bee was about to be blasted. After Itachi foiled that plan, he also laughed it off and thought CT would handle it, which we know how that ended. Kabuto's comments come right after the smirk from using CT is wiped off his face as its broken, Nagato is suddenly sealed and Kabuto suddenly curses Nagato's inability to move.

Kabuto was obviously highlighting that had Nagato the physical body to match his sensing he could have possibly dodged it, but nonetheless he could not.

Kabuto literally didn't need him to mobile until Itachi entered the fray.



> Kabuto believed he could win with Nagato, but then blamed Nagato's mobility (the Itachi praise was an extension of the mobility problem). Ergo the simple/obvious point is: mobility was the sole reason the hindered Nagato lost.


Mobility was the sole reason he got sealed there. Itachi still figured all of his techniques and outperformed him through the two fights. 



> He believed he could beat the Uchiha bros, true. However he obviously underestimated EMS Sasuke's level; he was correct about being leaps and bounds above Itachi.


EMS Sasuke only surpassed Itachi with his legged version of Susano. Until then they were equal, but Itachi was slightly more skilled, and intelligent. This is why Itachi was able to beat Kabuto the right way and didn't falter mutiple times like Sasuke did in their position of not being able to attack Kabuto.



> In the Nagato case, it was doubtlessly true when you consider all the handicaps Nagato had. Especially useful in a thread like this wherein you've got to consider all factors if you're going to say that Itachi would fight a unrestricted Nagato.


He was Emaciated from using Gedo and Paths which is a side effect on the main body. It's a trade off similar to MS making you blinded. Emaciated Nagato wasn't a concern for Itachi, and Edo Nagato is potent but can't attack like he can with 6 paths. All in all Itachi outperformed both versions of him.






> In an _ideal_ state Nagato would have _destroyed_ those three. Ergo he would destroy any variant of Itachi. Why? Kishimoto wanted us to open our minds to the fact that Nagato's mobility would have changed the outcome of the battle. I.E. a mobile hindered Nagato using just the Six Paths would beat all 3 shinobi.


It would have effected it no doubt but to what extent? Itachi seemed to be doing pretty fine their. Nagato being mobile isn't going to make his CT or ST stronger, which they already dealt with.



> Of course we're led to believe a mobile hindered Nagato using just the Six Paths from a fake Rinnegan could take all 3. Therefore a mobile Nagato with a fake Rinnegan just using the Six Paths would demolish Itachi.


Lol you say fake rinnengan as if you can't successfully use all the paths power. Like legitimately the only difference is you can't use Gedo.


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## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> One was the leader of Akatsuki and the other was a subordinate. One had the Rinnegan and the other had a diluted version of the eye. That's to name a few examples.


Terrible logic and false equivocation.

It is exactly that prior relationship that makes the scene so valuable. You think fucking Hidan would be talking to Nagato like that? Everytime we see a clear powergap in duo's it is touched up upon. Sasori/Diedara, Sasori/Oro, Kisame/Itachi, Tobi/Diedara, EMS Sauce, and BM Naruto.
-Nagato was shocked at Itachi's real self and accomplishments.
-Kishi says together they are unstoppable (not to be taken literal but it is still saying something)
-Nagato is beat by Itachi's effort, and apologizes to him.

Also I am using direct encounters with Nagato and his skillset, Hidan never fought with Nagato/Pain or interacted with them as such.

Also Rinnengan doesn't have certain things sharingan has. Nagato isn't a true user and can't revert like Madara could. So saying he is the diluted version doesn't really make sense here, as Nagato doesn't have access to any sharingan powers or abilities.



> There's plenty of literally and symbolic evidence for Nagato>Itachi. What you cited was essentially nonsensical evidence. That is you're using very weak evidence to support something said evidence doesn't even suggest.


Like?

This whole time you have just called me wrong, and said I'm overplaying Itachi, yet you offer no direct evidence or arguments. lol you're such a joke.




> Those were exactly what Kishimoto was portraying. Your evidence against that was not very convincing.



Explain how/


> I take from this that you speculated heavily while using little evidence, all of which do not suggest that you're saying they suggest.
> 
> My critique of your argument is *exactly the same* as it was with the Jiraiya thread: you have severely overestimated the Itachi factors while severely underestimating all the opposition's factors.


So point them out and counter my arguments individually. I can call you wrong and generalize my answers to you but we wouldn't get anywhere.



> Put another way: I don't consider your argument convincing at all for the very same reason I didn't consider your reasoning to be convincing in the Jiraiya vs Itachi thread.


Cool, until you specifically cite what's wrong with them and bring solid evidence as to why they are wrong or not in sync with the manga I'd be happy.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Fake Sharingan is reaching on your end:



It's not reaching at all. Edo Tensei creates a fake body, out of ash and dust surrounding a sacrificial corpse. This is known. Edo Itachi's host was just some random, non-Uchiha fodder who didn't have Sharingan. His Sharingan were fake.

The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter if they're fake; they're just as strong.



> Madara showed that fake Sharingan could use its max power. Itachi has significantly less Sharingan power than Madara; Itachi's fake Sharingan = his real Sharingan.



I'm not sure what Madara has to do with any of this, but yes, fake Sharingan = real Sharingan. And fake Rinnegan = real Rinnegan.



> We saw clearly that the Rinnegan, if it was seemed fake, could not use its max powers.



That's not how it looked in Nagato's case; Naruto even said his Jutsu were stronger than Pain's.



> That's why we saw no Gedo Mazo, for example.



That can be explained by Obito having it at the time.



> The comment paired with it suggests a fake Rinnegan simply cannot replicate the lengths of power the real one has.



Which comment?



> It matters a ton for Rinnegan users.



Edo Nagato's powers were identical to the real Nagato's powers, just as Edo Itachi's powers were identical to the real Itachi's powers. As far as anyone could tell, anyway.



> Itachi actually fled from Bee



Itachi only fled out of a physical confrontation, which is something B is better at than him. That's like saying Nagato fled on his flying summon. Neither Itachi nor Nagato made a full retreat from that battle.



> and Kabuto purposely paired the strongest Edo Tensei in the battlefield against Naruto. Obviously the puppet master (Kabuto) believed KCM Naruto>Itachi.



1. What Kabuto believes isn't necessarily true; he was proven wrong on more than one occasion.
2. I don't see where you are inferring that Kabuto's pairing choice hints at this belief.



> It wouldn't be a stretch to say they were stronger than living Itachi,



Of course not; they are right around the same level.

What puts Edo Itachi above them is his immortality + unlimited chakra.



> who (without Susanoo) was beneath Hebi Sasuke.



Not necessarily true.



> One could even argue with full knowledge, Hebi Sasuke would beat Itachi.



If Itachi were still trying to lose...then sure. Hebi Sasuke would beat him, just like in the manga.



> He never said anything about Totsuka. He just said Nagato wasn't mobile enough; he didn't specify Totsuka. What he did say way mobility was a big issue - it means a lot when powerful shinobi cannot move.



I suppose this is true. However, Kabuto's lack of specificity means this doesn't really tell us anything about what he expected Nagato's mobility to change...and even putting that aside, what Kabuto expected to happen and what would've actually happened clearly aren't the same thing, because Kabuto expected shared vision to make up for Nagato's lack of mobility and he was wrong about that.



> You could say Nagato could have lost, but you'd be wrong as it goes against what Kabuto was suggesting.



Kabuto never suggested that specifically, and whatever Kabuto was suggesting isn't necessarily right, anyway.



> Kabuto believed he could win with Nagato, but then blamed Nagato's mobility (the Itachi praise was an extension of the mobility problem). Ergo the simple/obvious point is: mobility was the sole reason the hindered Nagato lost.



At least, in Kabuto's belief... Kabuto also believed that shared vision would compensate, but that didn't turn out quite like he expected. So we know Kabuto is fallible.



> He believed he could beat the Uchiha bros, true. However he obviously underestimated EMS Sasuke's level; he was correct about being leaps and bounds above Itachi.



I don't see where underestimating Sasuke specifically caused Kabuto's downfall; it's evident that his lack of knowledge of Izanami is what cost him the fight. It was his lack of intel on Itachi, not Sasuke, that proved damning.

I wouldn't say Kabuto is above either of them individually, either; Itachi and Sasuke were also fighting without proper intel and neither one of them were allowed to attack Kabuto with anything that might endanger his life or seal him. It's also worth pointing out that Kabuto was naturally immune to their Sharingan Genjutsu, giving him a unique advantage that has nothing to do with strength (Kabuto seemed to know that it would be game-over if he ended up in their Genjutsu).



> In the Nagato case, it was doubtlessly true when you consider all the handicaps Nagato had. Especially useful in a thread like this wherein you've got to consider all factors if you're going to say that Itachi would fight a unrestricted Nagato.



It's not doubtless if it's something that hinges on the vague "belief" of someone who was ultimately proven wrong.



> Funny enough, there's a wealth of evidence that suggests he could. We saw his crippled mobility was amazing. Madara showed the extent of the Rinnegan's Ninjutsu mastery which is generalisable to Nagato who accomplished the same mastery feat;



Nothing about Madara can be generalized to Nagato; Nagato is not anywhere close to Madara's level, with or without the Rinnegan.



> we saw with normal Ninjutsu functions, like sensing, Nagato is capable of surpassing an entire platoon (which speaks volumes of his skill).



If you're talking about locating Kabuto, that's because he was connected to the Edo Tensei Jutsu and could trace Kabuto through that. Kabuto was surprised to learn of that weakness.



> There's also the fact that there's a notable difference between fake Rinnegan and real Rinnegan.



Not in Nagato's case; it's not clear why it was the case for Madara, and Kishi may or may not explain it at some point, but that doesn't apply to Nagato.



> In an _ideal_ state Nagato would have _destroyed_ those three. Ergo he would destroy any variant of Itachi. Why? Kishimoto wanted us to open our minds to the fact that Nagato's mobility would have changed the outcome of the battle. I.E. a mobile hindered Nagato using just the Six Paths would beat all 3 shinobi.



Err, no; Kabuto had a vague notion in his head that mobility might have changed something about the battle, but he didn't specify what that might have been and we have been shown that his conjecture isn't always accurate. Given that Edo Itachi and the others already destroyed Chibaku Tensei, there isn't anything Nagato could have done to beat them; that was his best Jutsu and they countered it.

It's also not fair to say as a blanket statement that Nagato would destroy any variant of Itachi, because the circumstances can make that true or false; e.g., Nagato without any knowledge of Itachi while Itachi has full knowledge may fall prey to a blindsided Totsuka Blade blitz before he uses Chibaku Tensei. There are foreseeable situations in which Nagato can lose to even the weakest version of Itachi, and they don't necessitate any restrictions if you tailor the conditions just right.



> Of course we're led to believe a mobile hindered Nagato using just the Six Paths from a fake Rinnegan could take all 3.



No one was led to believe that; you are estimating that, but your estimation doesn't hold any value for me as it does not come from an official source.



> Therefore a mobile Nagato with a fake Rinnegan just using the Six Paths would demolish Itachi.



The problem is that your premise is contrived; the Pain Rikudou wouldn't necessarily be able to beat Itachi, Naruto, and B, and they probably wouldn't, so it would be erroneous to make the inference that Nagato can beat Itachi based on that.

That doesn't mean you can't come up with other reasons why Nagato could probably beat Itachi, but that one isn't sound.



> Actually a crippled Nagato with a fake Rinnegan could take Itachi.



That's because Edo Nagato's fake Rinnegan was just as strong as his real Rinnegan, and Edo Nagato would have an obvious advantage over a living Itachi because of his unlimited chakra.



> He did "kill" Edo Itachi after all, with one Shinra Tensei.



You're using another faulty premise; no, Nagato didn't necessarily disable Edo Itachi with Shinra Tensei. It could have missed, like it missed Naruto and B. Even if it did hit Itachi, it was a surprise attack, anyway, so that's still a bad example.



> The only subjectivity is the speculation Itachi could compete on that level.



Either you don't understand what "subjectivity" means or you are deliberately misusing it in a sentence for reasons I don't understand.



> Kabuto, Kishimoto, pegged mobility as the sole reason Nagato loss. Therefore Nagato would not have lost if he had mobility. It is really that simple.



The fault in your reasoning is where you mistakenly conflate Kabuto's opinion with Kishimoto's. In addition to that, Kabuto didn't even make it clear what his opinion was; you're just sort of shoe-horning your own fill-in-the-blank answer, which makes the argument circular because it ostensibly proves a belief that it's predicated on.



> An example of a subjective interpretation would be that Kishimoto made that comment for shits and giggles.



That belief is no different than the one that a mobile Nagato would have been victorious; both are opinions, and neither is anchored in anything factual.



> If Kishimoto wanted us to believe a mobile hindered Nagato would still have lost (an unsupported subjective example at its finest), he would have *not* mentioned the mobility factor. He would have just said something like "Itachi is too good" and left it at that.
> 
> Instead he made the effort to highlight that mobility was the reason Nagato lost. The only objective interpretation to that is just that: mobility was the only reason Nagato lost.



You're missing the third option: Nagato's mobility was a significant factor, but would not have changed the outcome. Kabuto's jimmies were rustled that he lost, so he blamed Nagato, like a 12-year-old who got owned at Call of Duty blaming his controller for being broken.



> All the extra bonus points Nagato has on his side just happen to support the case very well.



After Chibaku Tensei was destroyed, I don't see anything supporting Nagato's victory against all three of his opponents in that fight.


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## Vice (Jun 23, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> This Fake Rinnegan is seriously overplayed, it's power was never noted to be anything different except it couldn't summon the Mazo.



Yes, and I'm sure your opinion would be just the same had it been mentioned that Itachi had wielded a fake Sharingan, right?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

Vice said:


> Yes, and I'm sure your opinion would be just the same had it been mentioned that Itachi had wielded a fake Sharingan, right?



Edo Itachi DID wield a fake Sharingan. Edo Tensei bodies are fakes. 

Where did this whole "fake Doujutsu" argument come from? I swear, I have never seen it until now.


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Edo Itachi DID wield a fake Sharingan. Edo Tensei bodies are fakes.
> 
> Where did this whole "fake Doujutsu" argument come from? I swear, I have never seen it until now.



It only came up with the comment "Can he summon that with Edo Tensei's fake Rinnegan?", otherwise no one would've thought that(from what I can tell).


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## Vice (Jun 23, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Edo Itachi DID wield a fake Sharingan. Edo Tensei bodies are fakes.



Itachi's Sharingan was not hampered in any way, the Rinnegan was outright stated to have been.



> Where did this whole "fake Doujutsu" argument come from? I swear, I have never seen it until now.



The manga. From the parts without Itachi that you clearly do not read.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

Vice said:


> Itachi's Sharingan was not hampered in any way,



You're taking too long to catch on, so I'll just explain it to you directly in simple terms:

1. Edo Itachi's Sharingan was fake.
2. Edo Nagato's Rinnegan was fake.
3. It doesn't matter.



> the Rinnegan was outright stated to have been.



Nope. Naruto said Nagato was stronger than Pain.



> The manga. From the parts without Itachi that you clearly do not read.



Was it this part, in the bottom-right panel?


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## lathia (Jun 23, 2014)

You do realize the reason for Naruto's comment is with regards to Nagato not having to deal with controlling the paths, right? That's how the strength and movement "increased." It's the same concept with the Sharingan. The user doesn't really become faster, the precognition increases and as a result they seem "faster."


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## Kai (Jun 23, 2014)

The fake Rin'negan was in regards to the Mazo, and naturally any power that is given meaning by life energy; however that has more to do with the incompatibility of Edo Tensei.

In regards to the Six Path powers, Nagato wasn't slighted in any fashion and would have in fact been documented to be weaker due to this than cited to be even stronger than before.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jun 23, 2014)

I'm not really sure I get the point of the "fake doujutsu" argument.  Many of the Edo Tenseis possessed unique physical traits they'd had in life, despite their souls being housed in the corpses of random fodder.  Raikagenaut had his absurd durability, Hizashi had his Byakugan, Hanzou had his implanted poison sac, etc.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> I'm not really sure I get the point of the "fake doujutsu" argument.  Many of the Edo Tenseis possessed unique physical traits they'd had in life, despite their souls being housed in the corpses of random fodder.  Raikagenaut had his absurd durability, Hizashi had his Byakugan, Hanzou had his implanted poison sac, etc.



There is no "point"; there's no difference in power between the fake Doujutsu and the real ones, just as there was no difference between any of the other fake body parts created by Edo Tensei and the corresponding real ones on the same shinobi.

Edo Nagato probably could summon the Gedo Mazo, but Obito was using it. For whatever reason (we as readers all know it's plot, but I mean in-universe), Rinne Tensei couldn't be used by an Edo Tensei; that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the other Rinnegan abilities, though.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2014)

The Biju also didn't seem to think that it was possible to summon the Gedo Mazo without having real Rinnegan.


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I really lol'd. I really did.


Dr. White how can, someone like you whose clearly capable of logical analysis,  think Itachi > Pain. Pain solo'd Konoha and than proceeded to take on a fully prep Sennin Modo Naruto, than KN6-8, and than barely lost after fighting Sennin Modo Naruto a second time. And that was with most of his enemies possessing knowledge of at least some of his capabilities going into the fight. When has Itachi even remotely accomplished anything like that? Or been hyped to that level by the author? I personally see Itachi struggling to deal with just Kakashi + Back Up, something Pain accomplished with only 2 bodies out of 6. 



> Every edo is weaker than living self. Itachi's real eyes like Nagato's were taken after his death and before his revival. So he would suffer any power loss just like Nagato did, and he was fine without it.


No where was it stated all of Kabuto's Tensei were weaker than their living selves. Onoki never noted that Mu or Nindaime Mizukage were weaker. Team 10 never noted Asuma was weaker. Etc... Every time a Tensei was weakened it was noted in the manga. Sasori being weaker was noted, as Kankuro brought up him not having any puppets. Gin/Kin/Sandaime-Raikage being weaker was noted because they lacked the 5th Treasure Tool, which had remained in the hands of Kumogakuru. The Hokages being weakened was noted, because they were brought back by an inferior Edo-Tensei users (Orochimaru) and Hiruzen was brought back as an Old-man, which was already noted to have weakened him. Hanzo being weakened was noted, as he became rusty. 

Nagato and Madara were weakened because Edo-Tensei could not recreate the Rinnegan's power specifically. Not mention from Madara of Sharingan being weakened. No mention from Itachi or anyone he interacted with of his Sharingan being weakened. In-fact Itachi quite literally demonstrated all of the same Mangekyo Powers he had in life; and none of them were weakened, as evident in the fact that he was still able to bring his Susano'o up to it's highest "level".



> Everyone knows Gedo Mazou full power Nagato can beat Itachi.


Well than why can't Pain defeat Itachi? Deva Realm was able to summon GM.



> Nagato used pretty much every thing else relevant, Human, ghost, Deva, Animal, etc and none of them were indicated not towork.


I personally agree that none of the 6 Paths powers were effected and rather it was the outer-path that were. However I guess we'll never know for sure. 



> If they wanna summon the Gedo. Nothing else is really changed.


I doubt any of the out-path powers were as effective (or even usable in some cases). If they were than Madara would have just revived himself with Gedo Rinnei Tensei. We also clearly saw a dramatic increase in the effectiveness of the black-chakra-rods after Madara was revived; as Hashirama went from still being able to utilize Jutsu with the Black-Rods piercing him to rendered completely unable to move. This is also probably why Kabuto never had Nagato create a Pain-Rikudo for himself and why Nagato never event attempted to use the Black-Rods.



> Itachi fled from Bee in CqC, which was the smartest thing to do considering he didn't have a weapon and was facing Kill Bee a kenjutsu master. He was still able to get away from Killer Bee multiple times, genjutsu him, and dodge his kenjutsu whilst locked up with KCM Naruto. So please don't try implying kishi was portraying killer bee as too much for Itachi.


Kishi was portraying Killer-B as too much for Itachi in CQC. Itachi tried to duke it out with him, but got forced back, and at that point upped his game to MS. As for whether Killer-B is too much for Itachi in general, that I don't agree with. I think Killer B vs Itachi would be a good fight.



> He obviously thought having MS and Rinnengan was a great combo, and Itachi was the best choice to aid Nagato as they knew eachother, and *Nagato needed someone to walk him.* He also knew another Jin was there.


lol-pretty funny dude. Also agree with this. They were paired together because Rinnegan + Mangekyo is OP. 



> Itachi uses full power Tsukuyomi and ends Sasuke's life from the moment Hebi Sasuke was stupid enough to stare into his eyes.


Hebi-Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi. There was no reason for Itachi to let Sasuke break Tsukuyomi. Remember that Itachi's goal was to get Sasuke to release Orochimaru; so he could seal Oro. If Hebi-Sasuke couldn't break Tsukuyomi than, he would have been able to accomplish his goal right then and there, mind-raping Sasuke, until Sasuke released Orochimaru or became weaken enough that Orochimaru was able to break free himself.



> Full knowledge Sasuke has no way around Amaterasu.


Sasuke outright demonstrated several ways around Amaterasu. He was able to anticipate it and interrupt Itachi's attempt to cast it with a quick assault (same way Killer-B attempted to with his sword attack, but Nagato deflected it). He also showed he was quick enough to evade Amaterasu for a bit and even when hit directly he could use Oral-Rebirth to escape it. Amaterasu was never a danger for Hebi-Sasuke.



> Sasuke's only chance is kirin and he gets felled way before that considering the skill difference.


Hebi-Sasuke went into that fight full prepared to take on Itachi's abilities and with the knowledge advantage, but still lost to Itachi. Itachi even had strength left over to deal with Orochimaru afterwards. So Hebi-Sasuke stands no chance. However we shouldn't undermine his performance entirely. He showed he had counters to a-lot of Itachi's arsenal.



> Mobility was the sole reason he got sealed there. Itachi still figured all of his techniques and outperformed him through the two fights.


Dude Nagato out-performed Itachi. He showed he could counter one of Itachi's best Jutsu (Amateras(, even when at his most vulnerable (thinking Itachi was on the same team as him). He blew Itachi away with Shinra Tensei, long of enough to defeat both B & Naruto with a degree of ease that vastly surpassed Itachi's own performance against those 2, and than he had Itachi completely defeated with Chibaku-Tensei. A

Itachi successfully counter Nagato's techniques, but only because he had help ether directly or indirectly from Naruto & B. You can't say someone with the help of two other individuals outperformed someone who was fighting solo. This would be like saying Shikkamaru outperformed Juubi Stage 1, because he was able to figure out what tactics for the alliance to utilize to effectively deal with S1 Juubi. It just doesn't work that way. 

Nagato out performed Itachi; but B + Naruto + Itachi out performed Nagato.



> EMS Sasuke only surpassed Itachi with his legged version of Susano. Until then they were equal, but Itachi was slightly more skilled, and intelligent. This is why Itachi was able to beat Kabuto the right way and didn't falter mutiple times like Sasuke did in their position of not being able to attack Kabuto.


Itachi was able to beat Kabuto because his skill set was perfect for doing so and because he had the help of Sasuke. Sasuke may have been on the verge of being defeated by Senpo Haguki, but Itachi was on the verge of being defeated by Muki-Tensei and chopped in half by a chakra scalpel. While both of them were on the verge of being defeated by Mugen Onsa.

Basically Sennin Modo Kabuto was stronger than ether one of them and they relied on each others help to get through that battle; Itachi taking on a more crucial role because Genjutsu was the ideal weapon to accomplish the task at hand. That's really all the take away should be there.



> He was Emaciated from using Gedo and Paths which is a side effect on the main body. It's a trade off similar to MS making you blinded. Emaciated Nagato wasn't a concern for Itachi, and Edo Nagato is potent but can't attack like he can with 6 paths. All in all Itachi outperformed both versions of him.


We barely saw anything from emaciated Nagato. There's really no way to tell whether he's stronger or Itachi's stronger. Nor do I think Kishimoto really cared to demonstrated emaciated Nagato being stronger or weaker than any of these fighters, as he had Nagato restored before the fight really got serious.

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Bottom line. Itachi may or may not be able to beat Pain-Rikudo. It would depend on the amount of knowledge he had going into the fight and whether he could put down Deva-Realm, before Pain's Triumph Cards start being utilized. He's not stronger than Pain though it's just that knowledge matters that much.

But that's as far as Itachi goes. Edo Nagato or living Nagato (Because he'd have to fight his way through the Pains first) he can't defeat.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Biju also didn't seem to think that it was possible to summon the Gedo Mazo without having real Rinnegan.



Did they?

Oh well; another of the many details I've forgotten in this ongoing trainwreck of a final arc.

Still, it didn't seem to hamper Nagato's other abilities.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 23, 2014)

Itachi isn't stronger than Pain overall in any incarnation , but with the right Knowledge Itachi when healthy or as an Edo could potentially defeat Pain, as Pain stated that someone of Jiraiya's level could defeat him and I see Edo Itachi  and healthy Itachi being around Jiriaya's level, now the Sick Itachi we saw fighting Hebi Sasuke wouldn't stand a chance because he wouldn't be able to sustain Susanoo.


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

**** First part of post in following post)*



> Hebi-Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi. There was no reason for Itachi to let Sasuke break Tsukuyomi. Remember that Itachi's goal was to get Sasuke to release Orochimaru; so he could seal Oro. If Hebi-Sasuke couldn't break Tsukuyomi than, he would have been able to accomplish his goal right then and there, mind-raping Sasuke, until Sasuke released Orochimaru or became weaken enough that Orochimaru was able to break free himself.


1. Turrin. Hebi Sasuke broke it because Itachi allowed him too. Itachi was better than sasuke with 3 tomoe, and with Tsukuyomi we know Itachi can control how hard he goes, and has the potential to kill people, as Kakashi and Kisame pointed out. Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he pushed to hard, Sasuke had a decent 3 tomoe on him so he probably put up some resistance, but in the end Itachi wanted Sasuke to overcome him and breaking Tsukuyomi after being hit twice defenseless was Kishi's way of Sasuke breaking the mental barrier. Kishi provides cannon evidence when Tobi specifically goes back to Itachi two uses of MS that failed to kill Sasuke and tells him he could have easily killed him.

-Your argument that he could have just mindraped Sasuke is invalid as once again he coulnd't risk killing him or putting him out for the fight, the whole idea was to have Sasuke think he fought Itachi to the death, and happened to conspicuously beat Oro via Fuinjutsu. This is exactly what Itachi thought until Obito told him the truth. By your argument he could have just amaterasu'd sasuke's whole body to make Oro auto come out. That is stupid concerning not only sasuke's safety, but also his plans (which are to have sasuke "kill " him and avenge the uchiha and go back to konoha.)

If he didn't go his hardest vs kakashi, who he didn't wanna kill but did want out of the way, what makes you think that he would go his hardest vs his brother in a fight he plans to die by his hand in?




> Sasuke outright demonstrated several ways around Amaterasu. He was able to anticipate it and interrupt Itachi's attempt to cast it with a quick assault (same way Killer-B attempted to with his sword attack, but Nagato deflected it). He also showed he was quick enough to evade Amaterasu for a bit and even when hit directly he could use Oral-Rebirth to escape it. Amaterasu was never a danger for Hebi-Sasuke.


-Sasuke had full knowledge.
-Sasuke ran before Itachi gathered the chakra, because he had full knowledge and just watched it burn his katon. The panel of Sasuke running occurs before Itachi's eye bleeds and focuses.
-Itachi wasn't trying to kill him, he had to aim very accurately. He literally just watched Sasuke defend with his wing against his katon, and we see him precisely tether up his wing on panel and in the flashback where Tobi reveals he was going soft on Sasuke.

Just no.




> Hebi-Sasuke went into that fight full prepared to take on Itachi's abilities and with the knowledge advantage, but still lost to Itachi. Itachi even had strength left over to deal with Orochimaru afterwards. So Hebi-Sasuke stands no chance. However we shouldn't undermine his performance entirely. He showed he had counters to a-lot of Itachi's arsenal.


He showed he had counters in theory, but circumstance would not allow for Hebi Sasuke to practically pull them off.




> Dude Nagato out-performed Itachi. He showed he could counter one of Itachi's best Jutsu (Amateras(, even when at his most vulnerable (thinking Itachi was on the same team as him).


-Nagato's best summon and only means of mobility were countered. Replace Itachi with Naruto vs Nagato and Itachi Ama's him through the door.
-Nagato's edo body was messed up, and it couldn't function on it's own anymore similar to how Hanzo's body quit after his poison affected him (Nagato just didn't have the soulful moment to release similar to Sai's bro and Hanzo).



> He blew Itachi away with Shinra Tensei, long of enough to defeat both B & Naruto with a degree of ease that vastly surpassed Itachi's own performance against those 2, and than he had Itachi completely defeated with Chibaku-Tensei.


-You mean Kabuto after taking over Nagato's disabled body surprised them fast enough to blitz KCM Naruto? Ok I'll take that lol. Of course Itachi is gonna need some time to find the group and catch up lol. You act like he did it in his face, like when Itachi amaterasu'd him.
-Itachi blitzed Bee twice, was weaving in and out of Bee's kenjutsu + Kcm Naruto hits, temporarily genjutusu'd Bee, and had Naruto shitting himself in fear of Itachi. Itachi was able to get an Ms jutsu off before Naruto could react (he thought Ama was coming yet was in the same position he was prior to Koto going off), meaning he probably could have capped either Naruto or bee with Amaterasu. KCM Naruto already admitted Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu were OHKO's and that's from his mouth.
-Itachi not only practiced his stand up during CT, but had time to instruct Naruto on how to deal with shit and gave him a life lesson, that highly constitutes "completely defeating". To me it would come down to Totsuka vs CT.



> Itachi successfully counter Nagato's techniques, but only because he had help ether directly or indirectly from Naruto & B. You can't say someone with the help of two other individuals outperformed someone who was fighting solo


.
-Nagato began with a sneak attack which mean Itachi literally had to play catch up to engage Nagato. When he came back Naruto and Bee were only helping in so much as getting soloed. He then only helped in so much as firepower for Itachi's plan. Itachi's clones can accomplish the getting soloed part, while real Itachi does his thing. This isn't counting genjutsu, or crow genjutsu. 





> This would be like saying Shikkamaru outperformed Juubi Stage 1, because he was able to figure out what tactics for the alliance to utilize to effectively deal with S1 Juubi. It just doesn't work that way.


No because that would imply we were *comparing strategy ability*, in which case if he did (which he didn't) he would deserve that hype. Shikamaru didn't engage the bjuu and use his arsenal, physical ability and mind to defeat him. 3 on 1 is alot different than thousands on 3 as well.

-Itachi saw through Nagato's moves* in combat,* and dealt with them all by himself (Animal, Mecha, Revival) barring the firepower used to defeat CT. He also didn't even break a sweat. 

Your example doesn't cut it.



> Nagato out performed Itachi; but B + Naruto + Itachi out performed Nagato.


No, Nagato has the stronger powers, and got soloed while in control, and near soloed via Kabuto's control. Despite this Nagato pulling out CT successfully in any match should be his win especially when he just had 2 people at death's door, and KCM Naruto (the only person with knowledge) was freaking out.

Itachi with Kunai and MS dismantled Nagato's OP skillset with a little help from his friends which is more impressive.




> Itachi was able to beat Kabuto because his skill set was perfect for doing so and because he had the help of Sasuke. Sasuke may have been on the verge of being defeated by Senpo Haguki, but Itachi was on the verge of being defeated by Muki-Tensei and chopped in half by a chakra scalpel. While both of them were on the verge of being defeated by Mugen Onsa.


-Sasuke would have gotten low diffed.
-Itachi did react to Mukai Tensei, he chose to protect Sasuke meaning if Sauce wasn't there he would have been fine. _*Also if Itachi could attack he wouldn't have been situations for Kabuto to just leisurely cast jutsu while he preps Izanami, you fail to take that into account.
*_



> Basically Sennin Modo Kabuto was stronger than ether one of them and they relied on each others help to get through that battle; Itachi taking on a more crucial role because Genjutsu was the ideal weapon to accomplish the task at hand. That's really all the take away should be there.


-No basically Kabuto relished in the fact that the brothers couldn't risk killing or sealing him, and took advantage of this to cast all his new jutsu on him. Kabuto was free to use all his jutsu (Mukai Tensei, Hagueki, sound 4, Taka, oro,etc) while the Bro's could only use their jutsu supplimentally and defensively.

Sasuke would have raped Kabuto so hard had Itachi not gotten in his way. There is a reason Kabuto kept hyping Itachi, and trying to get Sasuke to switch sides.




> We barely saw anything from emaciated Nagato. There's really no way to tell whether he's stronger or Itachi's stronger. Nor do I think Kishimoto really cared to demonstrated emaciated Nagato being stronger or weaker than any of these fighters, as he had Nagato restored before the fight really got serious.


Emaciated Nagato Bansho'd KCM Naruto, and reacted via Preta to a lariat to the chest. He could use Deva + Animal to successfully take to the air vs alot of the Naruto verse and his still lol high tier. Could you imagine if Pain travelled via Konan and his summons all the time?


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Biju also didn't seem to think that it was possible to summon the Gedo Mazo without having real Rinnegan.


Either way if he gets to auto summon Gedo you might as well just chalk up Itachi's L, now. But in regards to Path powers he was not hampered.



Turrin said:


> Dr. White how can, someone like you whose clearly capable of logical analysis,  think Itachi > Pain.


-MS is a great counter to the paths, and Itachi's physical feats are better than all the bodies barring Deva, and I still think Itachi edges it there. Itachi's genjutsu and clone game give him an edge > the paths and their shared vision as Kakashi showed, and Itachi cannonicaly took a look at Pain's powers and low diffed them every time. He arrogantly hopped away after setting ablaze Nagato and his summons, he was the only one to directly injure Nagato or even threaten him during the fight, he was shooting the shit mid Chibukai Tensei, and ultimately sealed him. 



> Pain solo'd Konoha


He didn't solo Konoha. He snuck into Konoha (unsuccessfully if I recall), and let his paths fight a shit ton of fodder, and some semi fodder. Then Deva just floated into the sky, and city busted the place. Kakashi put in work on Deva and Asura himself, and Itachi is much superior to that incantation of kakashi. 



> and than proceeded to take on a fully prep Sennin Modo Naruto, than KN6-8, and than barely lost after fighting Sennin Modo Naruto a second time. And that was with most of his enemies possessing knowledge of at least some of his capabilities going into the fight.


Because the rinnengan is hax I get it, but Itachi is much better than Pain Arc SM Naruto. He is much more intelligent, efficient in battle, and has more hax. 



> When has Itachi even remotely accomplished anything like that? Or been hyped to that level by the author? I personally see Itachi struggling to deal with just Kakashi + Back Up, something Pain accomplished with only 2 bodies out of 6.


  It's moments like these when I think you're fucking with me man  . Are you? (not joing around here Pm me if you're really just trolling)

-The author made it a point several times that Itachi is the Kingpin of all analysis, insight, and psychology, in the Naruto-verse. Ask for scans as needed.

-Itachi was hyped Kabuto after defending from his Hagueki for being able to truly see through people, not counting his inherent sharingan ability, which allows him to decipher his opponents intentions.
-Itachi himself stated he is the weakness to all jutsu. He stated there is a weakness to every jutsu, and you must calmly analyze and counter every situation which he showed vs the Rinnengan, and on the fly vs Kirin. He really did backup his word though. I understand Itachi is not above all jutsu but this is direct author hype, that itachi cashed in on via feats.
-Itachi was hyped to have the mindset of a Kage by age seven, by your boy, the one and only hiruzen.
 and what kills me the most to have to argue this point with you my friend is..

*Itachi canonically blowing through Nagato's jutsu with no explicit knowledge on his abilities. *

Like for real 







> No where was it stated all of Kabuto's Tensei were weaker than their living selves. Onoki never noted that Mu or Nindaime Mizukage were weaker. Team 10 never noted Asuma was weaker. Etc... Every time a Tensei was weakened it was noted in the manga. Sasori being weaker was noted, as Kankuro brought up him not having any puppets. Gin/Kin/Sandaime-Raikage being weaker was noted because they lacked the 5th Treasure Tool, which had remained in the hands of Kumogakuru.


-Tobirama claimed that Orochimaru fucked up in bring him back near full lvl (indicating that even his more perfected version wasn't able to bring him back to 100%), which also indicates that ET by Oro was weaksauce. I see no reason for Kabuto's version to be better than Oro's Hokage Edo's, so it's pretty universal. It is nullified by Edo benefits.




> Nagato and Madara were weakened because Edo-Tensei could not recreate the Rinnegan's power specifically.


There is no evidence for this, it's just an assumption. All we know his the Rinnengan couldn't summon or use Gedo. All path powers were still intact.




> Well than why can't Pain defeat Itachi? Deva Realm was able to summon GM.


Obviously I'm not counting GM in my summation. Deva fought naruto to the bear bones, and nagato had a shit ton of prep while SM Naruto charged to his door. Yet he never summoned it. I don't count GM in my sumation for the same reason I wouldn't post in a thread where someone specifically starts the match staring into Itachi's eyes at 5M.




> I personally agree that none of the 6 Paths powers were effected and rather it was the outer-path that were. However I guess we'll never know for sure.


They weren't lol, they were doing just fine.


I doubt any of the out-path powers were as effective (or even usable in some cases). If they were than Madara would have just revived himself with Gedo Rinnei Tensei. We also clearly saw a dramatic increase in the effectiveness of the black-chakra-rods after Madara was revived; as Hashirama went from still being able to utilize Jutsu with the Black-Rods piercing him to rendered completely unable to move. This is also probably why Kabuto never had Nagato create a Pain-Rikudo for himself and why Nagato never event attempted to use the Black-Rods.




> Kishi was portraying Killer-B as too much for Itachi in CQC. Itachi tried to duke it out with him, but got forced back, and at that point upped his game to MS. As for whether Killer-B is too much for Itachi in general, that I don't agree with. I think Killer B vs Itachi would be a good fight.


Yeah exactly Killer Bee had the skill of being a perfect Jin which Itachi's autopilot body couldn't account for, despite that it was able to effortlessly evade him via samehada along with KCM Naruto, and even then evaded his 7 sword strike weaponless. He needed MS at that point so he stepped up his game honestly per cannon If Itachi doesn't turn at that moment things go downhill for naruto and bee real bad.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2014)

How is Itachi supposed to fight against Pain with Deva present? He get's repeatedly bulldozed by Shinra Tensei.

 Shared Vision takes care of clone feinting; there is a difference, believe it or not, between blocking the vision of six mobile ninja as opposed to giant, mostly stationary wild beasts...


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> How is Itachi supposed to fight against Pain with Deva present? He get's repeatedly bulldozed by Shinra Tensei.


Deva will likewise have to risk not getting hit with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. Susano gives him a lifeline, a weapon to pressure with from range, and a means to seal each path meaning he only has to hit each path once.



> Shared Vision takes care of clone feinting; there is a difference, believe it or not, between blocking the vision of six mobile ninja as opposed to giant, mostly stationary wild beasts..


No it doesn't because Itachi has clone feinted right infront of people with the sharingan. If sharingan can't track his handseals/clones neither will Deva, also genjutsu helps him here alot.

Also Amaterasu pretty much clears the flock.

Also if Tsukyomi works then everyone including Nagato is going to be fucked since they share the same vision, mall security cam style


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## Azula (Jun 24, 2014)

the paths can simply deflect kunais with chakra receivers that come out of their hands 

its not like itachi is in a target practise with the paths lined up to get hit


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> the paths can simply deflect kunais with chakra receivers that come out of their hands
> 
> its not like itachi is in a target practise with the paths lined up to get hit



Which gives a lone path a death sentence via Amaterasu. (assuming Itachi got one out of sight, or in dust.)


It is mostly effective vs the path summons.


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## Bloo (Jun 24, 2014)

Itachi is not stronger than Pein. First of all, Itachi isn't the best combatant when it comes to fighting many opponents. He's best at one-on-one. Honestly, Itachi stands a better chance against Nagato than he does against Pein.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Deva will likewise have to risk not getting hit with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. Susano gives him a lifeline, a weapon to pressure with from range, and a means to seal each path meaning he only has to hit each path once.



Pain is a sensor, so every time Itachi gathers chakra to activate one of his taxing dojutsu, he eats a Shinra Tensei. Even if Tendo was hit, he can be revived without issue.



> No it doesn't because Itachi has clone feinted right infront of people with the sharingan. If sharingan can't track his handseals/clones neither will Deva, also genjutsu helps him here alot.



Sharingans have blind spots that the real Itachi can hide in. Pain, when utilizing shared vision, does not.



> Also Amaterasu pretty much clears the flock.



If all six Pain bodies stands in a line and do nothing, sure.

By the way, Itachi can't exactly spam the Mangekyou with dat 2.5/5 stamina, so I don't know why I'm seeing this MS heavy argument...


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Pain is a sensor, so every time Itachi gathers chakra to activate one of his taxing dojutsu, he eats a Shinra Tensei. Even if Tendo was hit, he can be revived without issue.


No...Nagato is a sensor (uzumaki body), Deva's only sensing feats come via his Rain Jutsu. Even Nagato was hit amaterasu before he could defend via Path powers.

Tendo can be revived but If Itachi burns the land to waste the paths can't even get near him, and Itachi spewed 1 amaterasu that was Katon level, and one that started a forest fire. He's got some pretty good shots in the tank.



> Sharingans have blind spots that the real Itachi can hide in. Pain, when utilizing shared vision, does not.


Not when the much faster, more more jutsu efficient Itachi has Pein thinking via feinting skill, or genjutsu that he has all eyes on Itachi. He was fast enough to get out of Bee's sight twice, the same guy who has lariat competeitions with Raiton Raikage, he also clone bushin'd a perfect sensor (who didn't need a vision system). As Kakashi showed things like Clone explosion can give him openings to blitz the paths.




> If all six Pain bodies stands in a line and do nothing, sure.


Because they have the speed to dodge it?

Because Itachi can't move his head?





> By the way, Itachi can't exactly spam the Mangekyou with dat 2.5/5 stamina, so I don't know why I'm seeing this MS heavy argument...


Because as per cannon Itachi can figure out Pain's secrets pretty quick. His specialty is reading people and devising the best way to defeat them. He has enough MS in so much that he can, pending good planning and execution take them out with some stamina in the tank.
-Terminally Ill itachi could use a shit ton of amaterasu(he used it 3 times), a Tsukuyomi, all of hisbase arsenal, and Extended Susano vs Kirin, Oro, and Sasuke. Stop acting like Itachi is pt. 1 Kakashi who used some Mizubushins, 3 tomoe, and 2 suitons and had to rest for a day.

Itachi has amazing chakra control as shown vs Cerberus he can control the amount of Amaterasu used, and doesn't have to spam it like vs Hebi Sauce. He can likewise do the same with Susano like we saw vs Nagato, Kabuto, and when Sauce was chasing Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> How is Itachi supposed to fight against Pain with Deva present? He get's repeatedly bulldozed by Shinra Tensei.



Susano'o can cushion the impact. Shinra Tensei's cooldown is something Itachi can look to exploit, either if he's given knowledge of it or figures it out at some point in the fight.



> Shared Vision takes care of clone feinting; there is a difference, believe it or not, between blocking the vision of six mobile ninja as opposed to giant, mostly stationary wild beasts...



It might be more difficult, but at least in principle, Itachi has shown already that he is capable of it. It just depends how capable he really is, and I'd give the guy who can hit a dozen targets simultaneously with his eyes closed in mid-flip the benefit of the doubt.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Susano'o can cushion the impact. Shinra Tensei's cooldown is something Itachi can look to exploit, either if he's given knowledge of it or figures it out at some point in the fight.



Itachi cannot keep Susano'o activated for very long, so that is only a temporary solution. 

Tendo has a very short cool down, and plenty of high level defense support from the other bodies, so I'm not seeing any of Itachi's attempts at exploiting this cool down working. Even if it did, Tendo can just be revived.

Itachi needs the Mangekyou to defend against pretty much everything Pain can do, and considering how taxing it is, that's a good indication that he isn't going to win a fight with him anytime soon. 

Chibaku Tensei GG.



> It might be more difficult, but at least in principle, Itachi has shown already that he is capable of it. It just depends how capable he really is, and I'd give the guy who can hit a dozen targets simultaneously with his eyes closed in mid-flip the benefit of the doubt.



Itachi has shown capable of blinding a bunch of dumb, largely immobile summons that weren't even paying attention to him. That is not comparable _in the slightest_ to doing the same to six elite ninja who can all adequately defend themselves. So no, he has not proven capable of it. 

Hitting a bunch of inanimate & stationary targets isn't comparable either. Though I find it funny that we never actually see Itachi's eyes shut during this target practice, and when he lands, he conveniently has his Sharingan activated.

Convenient.


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## Ersa (Jun 24, 2014)

Vice said:


> Yes, and I'm sure your opinion would be just the same had it been mentioned that Itachi had wielded a fake Sharingan, right?


He did wield a fake Sharingan, I haven't contrived some ass theory that it somehow means he's vastly weakened compared to his living self.

It only mentioned the Mazo not being able to be summoned because of them not being true Rinnegan eyes but no where is it stated that his jutsu are weaker. And what some extremely intelligent fanboys seem to forgot is Naruto stated Nagato's jutsu as an Edo Tensei were on a different level to Pein.

So in no shape or form is Edo Nagato's jutsu weaker then Pain's jutsu. They are vastly superior in fact.


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## SearchingForSasukeKun (Jun 24, 2014)

This is Itachi beating them more times than not even it he barely edges them out.

Edo: MS Obito
Healthy: Jiraiya
Sick: Part 1 Orochimaru


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## Ether (Jun 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Who is the strongest person that Itachi can beat?
> Who is the weakest person that can beat Itachi?
> 
> Include
> ...



*Strongest person Itachi can beat*

Edo: SM Naruto War Arc
Healthy: SM Naruto Pein Arc
Sick: Killer B


*Weakest person who can beat Itachi*

Edo: DSM Kabuto
Healthy: Muu
Sick: J-man


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi cannot keep Susano'o activated for very long, so that is only a temporary solution.


If he uses it conservatively he should be fine. In the Kabuto fight he only used it when needed as oppossed to when he just sat in it vs Sasuke. Kirin also took alot out of the young boy.



> Tendo has a very short cool down, and plenty of high level defense support from the other bodies, so I'm not seeing any of Itachi's attempts at exploiting this cool down working. Even if it did, Tendo can just be revived.


Cooldown + Amaterasu on two paths = Bad day. Considering they are usually very close to one another hitting atleast two with a volley won't be too hard, and unlike FRS there is no helping your other path not get hit. 



> Itachi needs the Mangekyou to defend against pretty much everything Pain can do, and considering how taxing it is, that's a good indication that he isn't going to win a fight with him anytime soon.


Not really clones + Genjutsu (which you curiously seem to shy away from addressing in this matchup) and katons could actually help alot in this match up.



> Chibaku Tensei GG.


Totsuka GG.




> Itachi has shown capable of blinding a bunch of dumb, largely immobile summons that weren't even paying attention to him. That is not comparable _in the slightest_ to doing the same to six elite ninja who can all adequately defend themselves. So no, he has not proven capable of it.


It isn't it goes more to show how quickly he knew what was to be done. It's also a speed feat considering he hit all those targets and saved the Jins before Nagato realized he lost those visionways. 

Kunai are more of a distraction thing for Itachi. Nonethelesss should he need to do so to take out summon eyes we know he can do this with literally just his kunai.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -snip-



I'm not going to take this further because you're essentially repeating yourself without any meaningful proof. The main reason I won't continue though is the critiques I mentioned the last two times are still present.

I'm not going to increase my post count constantly telling you the same thing. 



Nikushimi said:


> It's not reaching at all. Edo Tensei creates a fake body, out of ash and dust surrounding a sacrificial corpse. This is known. Edo Itachi's host was just some random, non-Uchiha fodder who didn't have Sharingan. His Sharingan were fake.
> 
> The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter if they're fake; they're just as strong.
> 
> I'm not sure what Madara has to do with any of this, but yes, fake Sharingan = real Sharingan. And fake Rinnegan = real Rinnegan.



Why was there a comment about a fake Rinnegan then?

Madara showed us: the Sharingan is weak enough to have its power replicated by Edo Tensei. The Rinnegan is not.



> That's not how it looked in Nagato's case; Naruto even said his Jutsu were stronger than Pain's.



Which only speaks volumes about how a real Rinnegan would perform. 



> That can be explained by Obito having it at the time.



Obito had a real Rinnegan.



> Edo Nagato's powers were identical to the real Nagato's powers, just as Edo Itachi's powers were identical to the real Itachi's powers. As far as anyone could tell, anyway.



Nagato's Doujutsu apparently cannot be adequately replicated with the Edo Tensei. That's not the case with Itachi; Madara was able to use EMS to its full power. MS is much weaker, so if the stronger EMS can be replicated perfectly so can the MS.

It got to the point where Madara deemed a weaker eye his strongest power whilst he was an Edo... till he got his real Rinnegan.



> Itachi only fled out of a physical confrontation, which is something B is better at than him. That's like saying Nagato fled on his flying summon. Neither Itachi nor Nagato made a full retreat from that battle.



Itachi retreated to his stronger partner. Obviously Itachi couldn't keep up with Bee in extended combat. Itachi needs a distracted Bee to pull it off.

Nagato used the summon for mobility as the manga said. Itachi constantly retreated and asked for help; Nagato didn't ever need help from Itachi in the battle.



> 1. What Kabuto believes isn't necessarily true; he was proven wrong on more than one occasion.
> 2. I don't see where you are inferring that Kabuto's pairing choice hints at this belief.



1. The manga supports Kabuto in that instance. Whenever Kabuto was wrong the manga made an effort to show he was wrong, as it does with characters in a similar situation time and time again. This wasn't one of those instances.

2. Read the manga and my post again, I'm not going to repeat something I clearly posted.


> Of course not; they are right around the same level.
> 
> What puts Edo Itachi above them is his immortality + unlimited chakra.



Those two are above Hebi Sasuke who could beat prime Itachi if the former had full knowledge.

Saying Itachi can even challenge the ultra tiers is nonsensical. He belongs to the outdated top tier of part 1.



> If Itachi were still trying to lose...then sure. Hebi Sasuke would beat him, just like in the manga.



Except as I've argued with you and several others many-a-time: you guys take "Itachi was trying to lose" way out of context. The manga only shows Itachi hold back Susanoo, the context supports this.
Hebi Sasuke with full knowledge>>>Itachi.



> I suppose this is true. However, Kabuto's lack of specificity means this doesn't really tell us anything about what he expected Nagato's mobility to change...and even putting that aside, what Kabuto expected to happen and what would've actually happened clearly aren't the same thing, because Kabuto expected shared vision to make up for Nagato's lack of mobility and he was wrong about that.



He cited mobility being the only reason for Nagato's loss, regardless. That tells us that the loss would not have happened if this drawback wasn't there.



> Kabuto never suggested that specifically, and whatever Kabuto was suggesting isn't necessarily right, anyway.



You're just trying to rationalise this stance now: first you're saying Kabuto isn't saying a mobile Nagato would've won, then you ADMIT to the possibility of it and try to defend yourself by saying Kabuto isn't always right.

Kishimoto wouldn't have mentioned it if we weren't meant to think mobility would have changed everything.



> I don't see where underestimating Sasuke specifically caused Kabuto's downfall; it's evident that his lack of knowledge of Izanami is what cost him the fight. It was his lack of intel on Itachi, not Sasuke, that proved damning.



Itachi was getting stomped every time he didn't have Sasuke's help. Sasuke was also the shinobi Kabuto wanted to keep alive. So Sasuke there helped immensely.
Without Sasuke, Itachi would try to fight Naruto and Bee again.



> Nothing about Madara can be generalized to Nagato; Nagato is not anywhere close to Madara's level, with or without the Rinnegan.



Madara showed us the extent of the Rinnegan's jutsu mastery, a feat Ibiki and Jiraiya said Nagato has. Obviously that can be generalised. We also know a real Rinnegan>>>a fake Rinnegan, that can be generalised.

Naturally Nagato won't do things to the scale Madara can. However Nagato doesn't need anywhere near that amount of power to take Itachi. Tbh, even Rinnegan jutsu to the scale of a distanced Pain Rikudou would be more than enough to take Itachi.



> If you're talking about locating Kabuto, that's because he was connected to the Edo Tensei Jutsu and could trace Kabuto through that. Kabuto was surprised to learn of that weakness.



And Muu, along with all the other sensors, couldn't detect Kabuto because... 

Of course you could simply attribute it to Nagato's canonical Ninjutsu mastery. 


> It's also not fair to say as a blanket statement that Nagato would destroy any variant of Itachi, because the circumstances can make that true or false; e.g., Nagato without any knowledge of Itachi while Itachi has full knowledge may fall prey to a blindsided Totsuka Blade blitz before he uses Chibaku Tensei. There are foreseeable situations in which Nagato can lose to even the weakest version of Itachi, and they don't necessitate any restrictions if you tailor the conditions just right.



It is more than fair to say so because all the arguments supporting Itachi are simply not that convincing. 

Nagato without knowledge would take Itachi extra seriously. That would mean Itachi wouldn't last long, especially with the chakra sword, Totsuka could be anticipated and absorbed. 

The only way Nagato can lose to Itachi is if he either has severe, extremely severe limitations or if Itachi has stronger team mates on his side i.e. the Jinchuriki or Sasuke whilst Nagato has these limitations.



> The problem is that your premise is contrived; the Pain Rikudou wouldn't necessarily be able to beat Itachi, Naruto, and B, and they probably wouldn't, so it would be erroneous to make the inference that Nagato can beat Itachi based on that.



That's not what the manga wants us to believe. Kishimoto wanted us to believe a mobile, hindered Nagato with a fake Rinnegan could beat KCM Naruto, Bee and a severely enhanced Itachi. Hence the comment was made in the first place. 

Of course, if a hindered Nagato can beat a severely enhanced Itachi (who has back up) means he can destroy any variant of Itachi.



> You're using another faulty premise; no, Nagato didn't necessarily disable Edo Itachi with Shinra Tensei. It could have missed, like it missed Naruto and B. Even if it did hit Itachi, it was a surprise attack, anyway, so that's still a bad example.



Ironic: what you propound is a faulty premise with a double standard attached to it.

Faulty premise as you are suggesting Itachi dodged ST through some magical way. Double standard as a surprise attack is considered a bad example (lol Totsuka blitz).

Naruto and Bee were hit with the jutsu. Also Itachi simply wasn't a tank like the Jinchuriki, so he was obliterated. That's why shared vision was set up, so Kabuto (with his limited knowledge on Nagato's capabilities) could take the Jinchuriki while being ready for Itachi after he got revived.




> After Chibaku Tensei was destroyed, I don't see anything supporting Nagato's victory against all three of his opponents in that fight.



One would think being able to sense your opponents would mean a lot.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 24, 2014)

Strongest person Itachi can beat

Edo: Obito (pre-Rinnegan)
Healthy: Tobirama
Sick: Orochimaru (part I w/Edos) 


Weakest person who can beat Itachi

Edo: Sasuke (EMS, no PS)
Healthy: Minato (living)
Sick: Kirabi


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> If he uses it conservatively he should be fine. In the Kabuto fight he only used it when needed as oppossed to when he just sat in it vs Sasuke. Kirin also took alot out of the young boy.



He needs it constantly, so where is "conservatively" coming from?

All I'm seeing is "Amaterasu this", and "Susano'o that"...Itachi cannot use these techniques excessively. If he abuses it, his condition will go to shit and he'll be a sitting duck.



> Cooldown + Amaterasu on two paths = Bad day. Considering they are usually very close to one another hitting atleast two with a volley won't be too hard, and unlike FRS there is no helping your other path not get hit.



The cooldown is only five seconds. 

If Itachi is struck by Shinra Tensei, by the time he gets himself up off the ground and gathers the chakra for Amaterasu, Tendo's cooling period will be over. Tendo can pull the flames off of whichever path is struck by Amaterasu with Banshō Ten'in, or push them off if he is struck himself.  

Alternatively, Deva can just blast Itachi into the next zip clode with Shinra Tensei to give Preta Path time to absorb the flames off of whichever path.

Due to Pain's knowledge, they don't have to remain close to one another either. The Amaterasu volley thing was slow anyway (Sasuke outran it for a bfreif amount of time), so Tendo and Shurado would have plenty of time to interrupt Itachi.



> Not really clones + Genjutsu (which you curiously seem to shy away from addressing in this matchup) and katons could actually help alot in this match up.



I already addressed clones, and genjutsu is dealt with by utilizing the partner method; there are six bodies.



> Totsuka GG.



Pain can avoid Totsuka, Itachi can't do the same to Chibaku Tensei.



> It isn't it goes more to show how quickly he knew what was to be done.



Having knowledge of Shared Vision does not mean he can deal with it effectively. 



> Kunai are more of a distraction thing for Itachi. Nonethelesss should he need to do so to take out summon eyes we know he can do this with literally just his kunai.



Kunai can be blocked by any of the Pain's chakra rods or projectile jutsu. They also won't work on Cerberus.


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm not going to take this further because you're essentially repeating yourself without any meaningful proof. The main reason I won't continue though is the critiques I mentioned the last two times are still present.
> 
> I'm not going to increase my post count constantly telling you the same thing.



You didn't even offer evidence. Your essentially claiming victory off of nothing and then quitting. But indirect concession accepted. If you wanna really debate I'll be around.


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He needs it constantly, so where is "conservatively" coming from?


No he doesn't. He is faster, more reflexive, and faster at casting jutsu than all of them. Kakashi was able to fuck around with Asura and Deva. If Itachi could stay up in CqC with KCM Naruto and Bee and weave in and out while not even using any jutsu, I'm pretty sure he can fuck around with the paths. Susano only needs to be brought up to escape death hits (ST, and any attacks Itachi gets overwhelmed with or can't dodge in time). Offensively they have jack shit against the mythical weapons barring CT and then it comes down to pure power vs hax.



> All I'm seeing is "Amaterasu this", and "Susano'o that"...Itachi cannot use these techniques excessively. If he abuses it, his condition will go to shit and he'll be a sitting duck.


No, he won't. Itachi was purposely fucking wasting his MS jutsu. I don't can't even believe I have to pull up scans for this.

Sick Itachi blowing his stamina vs Sasuke
-Look at how much amaterasu is being cast. 1, 2, 3

Now we'll take a look at Itachi in a fight where he isn't actively fighting to kill himself.
-Itachi using way less to best Cerberus thanhe did vs the katon
-Sprinkling flames onto Nagato and the bird.

If you'd like I'd love to show you how Itachi conservatively uses Susano even in lower forms. All he needs is Ribcage to survive. Considering it protected from Ei I'm sure even his city buster wouldn't hurt him considering fodder even survived that with no Susano.
You constantly go on about characters like Minato and Jiraiya and their chakra control but never give Itachi his credit for being top tier in that category. 





> The cooldown is only five seconds.


It takes this long to hit a path



> If Itachi is struck by Shinra Tensei, by the time he gets himself up off the ground and gathers the chakra for Amaterasu, Tendo's cooling period will be over. Tendo can pull the flames off of whichever path is struck by Amaterasu with Banshō Ten'in, or push them off if he is struck himself.


It takes Itachi just as long to cast Amaterasu, as it does for Deva path to lesiruely say Shinra Tensei. Deva path cannonically does not start off fight blasting ST's everywhere. He didn't vs Kakashi, and decided to take out the frogs because they were a nuisance. 

Nagato couldn't pull the flames off of himself, or absorb them before being hit like he did with Bee's Lariat or Naruto's KCM Rasengan. So im iffy as to if it can be done, only the rods have shown to cancel out Ama. Also if Itachi engulfs one or two paths at once, it will be much harder to help them especially since Itachi is gonna be on Deva's case afterwards. 





> Due to Pain's knowledge, they don't have to remain close to one another either. The Amaterasu volley thing was slow anyway (Sasuke outran it for a bfreif amount of time), so Tendo and Shurado would have plenty of time to interrupt Itachi.


I can't understand how you claim to be unbiased yet use Hebi Sasuke feats as if they are relevant to any incantation of Itachi other than one trying to lose the fight. Like I really can't grasp it. Like sure if the restriction is Itachi wants to die against the paths but act like he isnt all along, then I can agree.

Despite that Hebi Sasuke had full knowledge, and just had seen it engulf his Katon. Meaning he had time to gtfo, which he did., and still got caught. There is no reason to even pit the paths on Hebi Sauce level IMO, let alone Itachi level. 





> I already addressed clones, and genjutsu is dealt with by utilizing the partner method; there are six bodies.


Very poorly, you never adressed Itachi being able to escape their POV like he did with the much better Killer Bee, and fool them into eyeing a clone beliving it to be Itachi. You also didn't comment on the Kagebushin explosion tactic which would temporarily blind them in the explosion. 

As for genjutsu partner method still takes times as seen even when the partner shares you consciousness. Their method is slower than Bee's and this gives Itachi times to capatilize on them with MS, or focus on other paths. The Paths can't afford not to keep their eyes open which is a catch 22 given their abilities vs Itachi's. Also what about Tsukuyomi?

Also you never adressed that since they share the same vision, how exactly would they save each other from genjutsu when they could potentially all be effected?





> Pain can avoid Totsuka, Itachi can't do the same to Chibaku Tensei.


Pain can't avoid totsuka in an illusion or if feinted by a clone don't act like it is slow, it blitzed Oro mid sentence. 

Also I was more so referring to Itachi being able to seal CT before it gets to big. Seeing as he cannonically figured out a way to deal with it id cracking jokes.





> Having knowledge of Shared Vision does not mean he can deal with it effectively.


He is one of the best fitted to do so.
-Ama acts like a defense/offense (like vs Kabuto)
-Tsukuyomi potentially ends them all, or atleast any individual path. Also Tsukuyomi may be able to Deva to fuck the other paths over.
-Genjutsu allows Itachi to temporarily fuck them over and capatilize on small time gaps before they are saved, and can allow him to mess up their perception and attack false Itachi's (like Killer Bee did), he also has finger genjutsu which can be used if they successfully counter looking at his eyes. (which will severly hurt them more than Itachi)



> Kunai can be blocked by any of the Pain's chakra rods or projectile jutsu.


-Which means they served their purpose of distracting the paths. Itachi also specializes in hitting blindspots meaning you block the obvious ones, and have to deal with unexpected ones from crazy angles. Once again not claiming the kunai skill is any thing more than minor utility.



> They also won't work on Cerberus.


You don't say?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> You didn't even offer evidence.



Neither did you. All you did was repeat what you said before, several times over, while constantly overestimating Itachi factors and underestimating the factors against him. 

Nothing changed: your "evidence" doesn't say what you claim it says. 

It would be a waste of your time and mine if we kept cycling back and forth quoting each other saying the same thing over and over.


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Neither did you. All you did was repeat what you said before, several times over, while constantly overestimating Itachi factors and underestimating the factors against him.
> 
> Nothing changed: your "evidence" doesn't say what you claim it says.
> 
> It would be a waste of your time and mine if we kept cycling back and forth quoting each other saying the same thing over and over.



I gave you straight panels of how Kishi was portraying Itachi vs Nagato and you just keep repeatin yourself. So I'll take it as a concession. Since you can't argue back or counter my points with shit from the manga.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No he doesn't. He is faster, more reflexive, and faster at casting jutsu than all of them. Kakashi was able to fuck around with Asura and Deva. If Itachi could stay up in CqC with KCM Naruto and Bee and weave in and out while not even using any jutsu, I'm pretty sure he can fuck around with the paths. Susano only needs to be brought up to escape death hits (ST, and any attacks Itachi gets overwhelmed with or can't dodge in time). Offensively they have jack shit against the mythical weapons barring CT and then it comes down to pure power vs hax.



Kakashi with his back up lost to two paths alone, and he couldn't even scratch Tendo.



> If you'd like I'd love to show you how Itachi conservatively uses Susano even in lower forms. All he needs is Ribcage to survive.



If Itachi needs Susano'o to deal with Shinra Tensei, then he will need to spam it, as Tendo can spam Shinra Tensei.



> It takes this long to hit a path



I know how long it takes.



> It takes Itachi just as long to cast Amaterasu, as it does for Deva path to lesiruely say Shinra Tensei.



Nagato thought the build up between Koto Amatsukami and Amaterasu were comparable (he only noticed that they were separate techniques after Itachi had finished charging chakra), and B was able to throw a sword at Itachi before he finished. 



> Nagato couldn't pull the flames off of himself, or absorb them before being hit like he did with Bee's Lariat or Naruto's KCM Rasengan. So im iffy as to if it can be done, only the rods have shown to cancel out Ama. Also if Itachi engulfs one or two paths at once, it will be much harder to help them especially since Itachi is gonna be on Deva's case afterwards.



Nagato pushed the flames off of himself in the Manga.

Regardless of that, Preta Path can do it; it canonically absorbs ninjutsu. If Itachi tires to interrupt, Pain says "_see ya_." 



> I can't understand how you claim to be unbiased yet use Hebi Sasuke feats as if they are relevant to any incantation of Itachi other than one trying to lose the fight. Like I really can't grasp it. Like sure if the restriction is Itachi wants to die against the paths but act like he isnt all along, then I can agree.



So you're saying Itachi purposely avoided hitting Sasuke with Amaterasu, only to hit him later?



> Very poorly, you never adressed Itachi being able to escape their POV like he did with the much better Killer Bee, and fool them into eyeing a clone beliving it to be Itachi. You also didn't comment on the Kagebushin explosion tactic which would temporarily blind them in the explosion.



There are SIX paths and they have knowledge of Itachi. Pain has no blind spot, so feinting to a blind spot will fail.



> Also you never adressed that since they share the same vision, how exactly would they save each other from genjutsu when they could potentially all be effected?





> Pain can't avoid totsuka in an illusion or if feinted by a clone don't act like it is slow, it blitzed Oro mid sentence.



Clone feinting won't work.

If Itachi attempts to stab a path caught in an illusion, Tendo sends Itachi on a trip with a large Shinra Tensei to give Pain time to use the partner method. If Tendo is somehow caught, Animal Path stalls with Summon Spam instead.



> Also I was more so referring to Itachi being able to seal CT before it gets to big. Seeing as he cannonically figured out a way to deal with it id cracking jokes.



How the _fuck_ does he "seal" Chibaku Tensei? It floats in the sky..



> He is one of the best fitted to do so.
> -Ama acts like a defense/offense (like vs Kabuto)
> -Tsukuyomi potentially ends Hashirama.
> -Genjutsu allows Itachi to temporarily fuck Shodai over and capatilize on small time gaps before he breaks free, and can allow him to mess up his perception and attack false Itachi's (like Killer Bee did), he also has finger genjutsu which can be used if he successfully counters looking at his eyes. (which will severly hurt him more than Itachi)



If I can put Hashirama's name where Pain should be, then you're doing it wrong.

You're basically telling me if that Pain is hit with Mangekyou jutsu, the bodies will die, and that genjutsu in general can trick them..

Like, cool story, but how the hell does Itachi stop any of their techniques? How does he beat there defenses?



> -Which means they served their purpose of distracting the paths. Itachi also specializes in hitting blindspots meaning you block the obvious ones, and have to deal with unexpected ones from crazy angles. Once again not claiming the kunai skill is any thing more than minor utility


.

Pain has the ability to fight with no blind spots.


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi with his back up lost to two paths alone, and he couldn't even scratch Tendo.


Kakashi was about to take out 1 of the 2 paths before his backup came in and Raikiri would have done much more than flattening Asura Path. Itachi is much better in pretty much all areas than Kakashi.



> If Itachi needs Susano'o to deal with Shinra Tensei, then he will need to spam it, as Tendo can spam Shinra Tensei.


Because it is IC for him to do that right? Because Kakashi got hit like 5 times and was sent all the way to Iwa right? Itachi only needs to pull it up as needed and with feats of reacting to kirin, and Mukai Tensei I'm sure he'll be alright reacting to it. Also if the Akamichi's could have time to pull chains after being hit. I'm pretty sure Itachi can get an Ama off.




> I know how long it takes.


you obviously don't if you are claiming there is this ridiculous cast time.




> Nagato thought the build up between Koto Amatsukami and Amaterasu were comparable (he only noticed that they were separate techniques after Itachi had finished charging chakra), and B was able to throw a sword at Itachi before he finished.


He didn't even know what was going on until he saw Itachi freed let alone know it was Koto. Itachi was about to activate an Ms jutsu but his eye then brought the crow out, which is what Itachi was waiting on. 

Yes, and Bee threw his sword while the crow was on it's way out. The eye had to be outside of Naruto's body to genjutsu him.




> Nagato pushed the flames off of himself in the Manga.


After Kabuto took control of him. Edo's can't just give up fighting, his body was disactivated like Hanzo's when his poison was too much for his edo body to handle. Kabuto being a third party source was not affected by Ama and saved Nagato. 



> Regardless of that, Preta Path can do it; it canonically absorbs ninjutsu. If Itachi tires to interrupt, Pain says "_see ya_."


Then why didn't Nagato just abrosrb it after he knew he was on fire, instead of just falling? Why did Itachi and co have a whole conversation as Nagato sat there burning?

And don't feed me the "Nagato let himself get hit" line, as Mizukage didn't want to fight yet kept breaking out after almost being sealed. Nagato clearly didn't have control lest he would have never stopped Bee's sword from hitting Itachi who he thought was casting Amaterasu.





> So you're saying Itachi purposely avoided hitting Sasuke with Amaterasu, only to hit him later?


I'm saying:
1. Itachi had no killing intent there, he could have just aimed at Sasuke body and engulfed him, but obviously that would kinda defeat the point of the plan he set up his whole life and dying to sasuke and having him live on ya know?

2. Itachi was clearly trying to hit Sasuke's wing. Itachi panels before watched Sasuke defend from his katon with the wing, and then we clearly see him aiming accurately to hit the wing on Sasuke. then we are given a flashback to him lighting the CS2 wing on fire, when Tobi alerts Sasuke he didn't use MS seriously and was only trying to get Oro to come out.

so comparing Hebi sasuke being able to temporarily evade is not logical when:
-Sasuke had knowledge, and just watched the technique burn his fucking fire. No opponents are getting this same treatment.
-Itachi wasn't trying to kill sasuke.

So yeah unless I'm to completely take the fight out of literary context and believe Hebi Sauce is on V2 levels, than using that feat is a heaping load of bull and intellectually dishonest.





> There are SIX paths and they have knowledge of Itachi. Pain has no blind spot, so feinting to a blind spot will fail.


Rinnengan doesn't = Byakugan bro. Pein path start the fight on the opposite side of Itachi not around him in a circle. Meaning they don't always have "no blindspots". If Itachi can clone feint faster than the sharingan can make out, and is fast enough to get out of their LOS with shushin alone he can capatilize on things like exploding bushin, katon, and genjutsu to hide from their sights.







> Clone feinting won't work.


I forgot the Rinnengan was the byakugan my fault 

Didn't jiraiya successfully feint some of them?



> If Itachi attempts to stab a path caught in an illusion, Tendo sends Itachi on a trip with a large Shinra Tensei to give Pain time to use the partner method. If Tendo is somehow caught, Animal Path stalls with Summon Spam instead.


Because Deva is always gonna be at their immediate side?

Because it is IC for Deva to solve all of his problems with ST?

You are acting like Itachi is some jonin and Deva Path is a Juubi Jin here. Severly lacking on Itachi's fluidity in speed, jutsu speed, reflexes and battle planning. 

More likely scenario? Paths get close Itachi, and catch eye contact with them, allowing him to use MS on the path or multiple at the same time. 





> How the _fuck_ does he "seal" Chibaku Tensei? It floats in the sky..


-CT pulls things in close, Itachi uses it once he is close....
-totsuka can extend...





> If I can put Hashirama's name where Pain should be, then you're doing it wrong.


But you can't.... How the fuck are the paths comparable to the best shinobi on earth? you're completely side stepping my question. Also if Hashirama did fight Itachi, then yes Tsukuyomi could end him if it. If you think SM Naruto from Pein arc last more than 3 minutes against serious base hashi you're fucking wacked. There is a clear power gap there sonny.

Hashirama also fought Uchiha's all of his life, and doesn't pride himself on having 6 sets of eyes wide open that lead to the same fucking consciousness Rocky 



> You're basically telling me if that Pain is hit with Mangekyou jutsu, the bodies will die, and that genjutsu in general can trick them..


If all paths share the same visuals, and genjutsu works on vision wouldn't they all be exposed to the same thing?

Even if not Itachi can use it to quell the ridiculoussness of fighting multiple people at once as getting close without looking at him or allowing him the space to force eye contact , it is still a help.

It isn't like you just said genjutsu wouldn't be enough you completely mentioned it all as if it's a non factor.



> Like, cool story, but how the hell does Itachi stop any of their techniques? How does he beat there defenses?


By stopping the clones...They can't exactly cast well while under an illusion. They also can't exactly defend from the multitude of OHKO's Itachi has. If he can get two clones next to eachother in an illusion Amaterasu sweeps them both, and he can focus on say Revival or Deva path so they can't be healed.

You can't revive a body that isn't there.

.



> Pain has the ability to fight with no blind spots.


his blindspots are minimal because he has many angles, but he doesn't have omniview over everything. He can still freaking be clone feinted or tricked, especially by one of the craftiest/most intelligent ninja in the game, who cannonically had little difficulty figuring out the "dreaded Rinnengan". It's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't like let's say on Jiraiya level of intelligence.


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## Jagger (Jun 24, 2014)

syrup said:


> Um don't they just have to look at him and he wins? Tsukiyomi after all. Though it seems like it is a forgotten jutsu besides the giant version now. Plus given the original ability of Sharingan, to copy any jutsu he has seen, he must have a very vast amount to pull from to counter an opponent. Just as Kakashi is supposed to know a ton yet only uses a few over and over.


It depends. Some characters are capable of avoiding genjutsu, not to mention Itachi doesn't usually start with such jutsu, plus, the fact some characters can just break it (Naruto, Sasuke, Madara, Kaguya, Hagoromo, etc.).

Starting with your best technique isn't, sometimes, the best option as it gives away your capacities rather analyzing your opponent's strength first.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2014)

Okay...



Dr. White said:


> Kakashi was about to take out 1 of the 2 paths before his backup came in and Raikiri would have done much more than flattening Asura Path. Itachi is much better in pretty much all areas than Kakashi.



I'm aware that Kakashi is stronger than Itachi, and significantly at that, but Kakashi didn't perform well against Pain, at _all._ He fought against two them with assistance from named Jōnin, and was killed despite Pain knowing next to nothing about the copy ninja.

Itachi is facing off against all six, with Nagato having detailed knowledge him and his dojutsu. The situation isn't comparable 



> Because it is IC for him to do that right? Because Kakashi got hit like 5 times and was sent all the way to Iwa right? Itachi only needs to pull it up as needed and with feats of reacting to kirin, and Mukai Tensei I'm sure he'll be alright reacting to it. Also if the Akamichi's could have time to pull chains after being hit. I'm pretty sure Itachi can get an Ama off.



He sent the Gama trio packing, so you're not countering my point. I'm merely speaking of Tendō's _capability_ to do so.

Kakashi is not Itachi, and Pain won't treat them similarly when they have completely different abilities and levels of competency. The fact that you seem to think that Pain must go _easy_ on Itachi for him to perform to the level you expect of him only strengthens my own point.



> You obviously don't if you are claiming there is this ridiculous cast time.



S..S..S..Straw Man!

I never said that. Amaterasu is quite the fast technique, which is why it is so hard to avoid. That said, with proper foreknowledge, it is something that can be guarded against. A technique that is based on visual focus can be blocked by placing something, anything, in the caster's line of sight. Pain has many expendable summons, smoke cloud-erecting explosives, and unpredictable gravity waves that can throw off Itachi's aim.



> After Kabuto took control of him. Edo's can't just give up fighting, his body was disactivated like Hanzo's when his poison was too much for his edo body to handle. Kabuto being a third party source was not affected by Ama and saved Nagato.



This is dumb, and it doesn't make any sense. If Amaterasu rendered Nagato's _body_ incapable of performing, Kabuto wouldn't have been able to do anything about that by seizing control of Nagato's _mind._

Edo Tensei _do not have to_ defend themselves if they do not wish to. This was also exemplified by the notably fast 3rd Raikage being blasted, _directly_, by fucking Temari and a bunch of cannon fodder.

And don't give me that "oh but it was an AoE attack!" bull either. The wall of wind was _barley_ taller than the Raikage himself, if that, and someone at the physical level of Sandaime would have no issues leaping over the attack.

_Period. _



> Nagato clearly didn't have control lest he would have never stopped Bee's sword from hitting Itachi who he thought was casting Amaterasu.



There are moments when the Edo have there bodies forced against their will, that is true. However, there are also moments when they can act of their own accord. This was even on display in the damn Nagato fight; I'm pretty sure that Itachi freeing himself with Koto Amatsukami was not of Kabuto's doing.



> So yeah unless I'm to completely take the fight out of literary context and believe Hebi Sauce is on V2 levels, than using that feat is a heaping load of bull and intellectually dishonest.



I'll concede the point, for the ambiguity of the entire fight alone. 



> Rinnengan doesn't = Byakugan bro. Pein path start the fight on the opposite side of Itachi not around him in a circle. Meaning they don't always have "no blindspots". If Itachi can clone feint faster than the sharingan can make out, and is fast enough to get out of their LOS with shushin alone he can capatilize on things like exploding bushin, katon, and genjutsu to hide from their sights.



....yes, they don't start out positioned in a way that eliminates blind spots, but is not difficult for the bodies to, you know, _turn around._ They don't need to be in a circle around Itachi to erase their own blind spots, they just need to be looking in every direction, a simple feat for twelve eyes. 

Nagato has plenty of information regarding Itachi, including the clone fuckery. Pain can casually adopt a formation that leaves no hiding spots and thus eliminates any and all surprises that may stem from clone feinting.  



> Didn't jiraiya successfully feint some of them?



No.

Actually he failed miserably when aiming attacks at _Pain's_ _blind spots_. Jiraiya only managed to get the best of Pain by taking advantage of an intricate tunnel system and the fact that there were only _three_ paths. One of which Jiraiya had previously blinded because Human Path rushed into melee range against a senjutsu user.

If you're going to make comparisons, make sure the situations are, um, comparable. 



> Because Deva is always gonna be at their immediate side? Because it is IC for Deva to solve all of his problems with ST? You are acting like Itachi is some jonin and Deva Path is a Juubi Jin here. Severly lacking on Itachi's fluidity in speed, jutsu speed, reflexes and battle planning.



Tendo doesn't need to stand next to the other paths to attack _Itachi_ with a _ranged_ jutsu. That makes NO sense. And yes, it is within Tendo's character to spam with one Rinnegan ability bestowed to the body. 

I'm making an argument based on what we know about each character. You just keep feeding me Itachi hype like I haven't already heard it enough. I don't need to hear about his speed, his planning, his reflexes, or any of his other skills anymore than you need to hear about Pain's colossal stamina, overwhelming firepower, unmatched versatility, and significant numbers advantage.

You need to do a better job of telling me how exactly Itachi uses his skills to fight Pain, because "Itachi gets into close quarters and genjutarasu seals them GG " isn't going to cut it.



> -CT pulls things in close, Itachi uses it once he is close....
> -totsuka can extend...


 
Chibaku Tensei is the size of a mountain range, and I don't remember seeing Totsuka extend that far. By the time Itachi is pulled into the construct, the core will be unreachable. 



> If you think SM Naruto from Pein arc last more than 3 minutes against serious base hashi you're fucking wacked. There is a clear power gap there sonny.



I'm guessing you didn't understand why I said that. Though this particular quote if funny, because Pain Arc Nardo didn't last very long against Deva and Preta Path alone.



> his blindspots are minimal because he has many angles, but he doesn't have omniview over everything. He can still freaking be clone feinted or tricked, especially by one of the craftiest/most intelligent ninja in the game, who cannonically had little difficulty figuring out the "dreaded Rinnengan". It's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't like let's say on Jiraiya level of intelligence.



I'm growing tired of "Itachi because Itachi" arguments. Why don't you tell me how Itachi manages to feint a knowledgeable Pain with all six bodies in play. Go ahead, explain to me how he magically slips past all of those eyes attached to competent ninja with powerful abilities.

Feinting is meant to be used for a distraction the real ninja can aim their attack at their opponents back, aka blind spot. That action, aiming at the back, has proven largely unsuccessful against Pain, so go on. Explain how Itachi gets it to work.

I'll wait.



> If all paths share the same visuals, and genjutsu works on vision wouldn't they all be exposed to the same thing? Even if not Itachi can use it to quell the ridiculoussness of fighting multiple people at once as getting close without looking at him or allowing him the space to force eye contact , it is still a help. It isn't like you just said genjutsu wouldn't be enough you completely mentioned it all as if it's a non factor.



The Paths all connect to Nagato; he hears what they hear, sees what they see, etc. Knowing this, Itachi catching a path may result in Nagato being ensnared in genjutsu as well. We don't know how it would work. That said, Gama Rinsho didn't appear to affect Nagato himself, so I'm guessing a simple 3-Tome illusion wouldn't solo Nagato and all six of his paths. 

Genjutsu basically _is_ a non-factor. Pain has knowledge, a far superior dojutsu, and absolutely *no* reason to venture into close quarters (illusion range). The Animal, Asura, and Deva Paths excel at ranged combat and can keep Itachi away, without fail, using Shinra Tensei. Bombs, lasers, and expendable creatures can be thrown into the mix to compensate for the incredibly short interval in between gravity waves. Itachi needs his Mangekyou to deal with their attacks, and in your argument you seem to be granting him limitless stamina, which is ironically the opposite of reality. 

Even if Itachi did manage to close the distance through a feint, there are three other Pains watching the big three's blind spot, one that can absorb any ninjutsu Itachi may try. Furthermore, Pain can afford to make _mistakes_ because he can bring back the dead! Itachi does not have that luxury.

Itachi needs Susano'o, his fucking _trump card,_ just to survive against Pain, while Pain's trump card is a multi-mountain buster that Itachi cannot do a damn thing about by his lonesome. "There is a clear gap in power", and I can't believe it takes this much arguing to prove that.


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## trance (Jun 25, 2014)

> Hidan is kind of a bad match for Itachi because Itachi is always bleeding all the time, so maybe 1 out of 100 matches Hidan gets Itachi's blood for Vodoo before Itachi can kill him.



Yea, going off of infinitesimal probabilities isn't a smart way to debate.


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## Dr. White (Jun 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm aware that Kakashi is stronger than Itachi, and significantly at that, but Kakashi didn't perform well against Pain, at _all._ He fought against two them with assistance from named Jōnin, and was killed despite Pain knowing next to nothing about the copy ninja.


What????
Kakashi fought Deva one on fucking one perfectly fine so much so that Nagato claimed he had to kill Kakashi before he became a future problem. That tells you kakashi wasn't doing shit?

He was doing fine against the paths. You know how you flout about the "no blindspot" thing? Well kakashi easily had two paths fooled for a signifigant time, and could have ended 1 of them had Choji and his gang interfered, he fucking tells them this himself, and we get a flashback to kakashi with raikiri ready and hiding. Bot asura and Deva were both blinded and had no idea where he was. But no lets go with Kakashi had a terrible performance 



> Itachi is facing off against all six, with Nagato having detailed knowledge him and his dojutsu. The situation isn't comparable


Last I checked the Pain fight in formation and not all at once. I have never seen more than 2 pain actively trying to attack together. Itachi was able to lol sift through KCM Naruto and Bee at close range while on fucking autopilot. If he can use clones and genjutsu with his brain power and insight it's a much different fight. Considering even at range none of the paths are safe from being randomly Ama'd (which make Preta or Deva busy), so he has enough leverage to fight the 6.

-Naruto had detailed knowledge everytime he fought Itachi and failed. Kabuto did and failed, Oro did and failed. The only person you can make a solid case for is Diedara. The paths use their eyes specifically to fight, I don't see how your just fucking throwing genjutsu at the wayside. That's like me saying Itachi knows about ST, therefore there is no way it can effect the fight...



> He sent the Gama trio packing, so you're not countering my point. I'm merely speaking of Tendō's _capability_ to do so.


Yes because that was his way of dealing with large summons. This is the same argument used for people like the Sannin. We have IC combatants and people throw out Jiraiya "FCD's" or Oro summons Manda off the bat.

It doesn't work like that in the manga. Summons usually get summoned in response to summons, Ace's are usually saved for important times, etc. there is literally no reason for Deva to use any ST bigger than the one used on Edo Itachi, Deva didn't even use a city busting CT against the 6 tails...



> Kakashi is not Itachi, and Pain won't treat them similarly when they have completely different abilities and levels of competency. The fact that you seem to think that Pain must go _easy_ on Itachi for him to perform to the level you expect of him only strengthens my own point.


Pain fucking knew Jiraiya was a Sannin that taught him everything, and was extremely powerful...Yet thought 3 would be enough to best him even after pulling out Sage Mode. Yet The Pein Paths who prior to Nagato being revived with Itachi, thought he was just a decent underling, are going to somehow treat him drastically more different?

Sometimes I wonder if you guys no what IC means. It doesn't mean "do what you would do with your meta in this situation"..





> S..S..S..Straw Man!
> 
> I never said that. Amaterasu is quite the fast technique, which is why it is so hard to avoid. That said, with proper foreknowledge, it is something that can be guarded against. A technique that is based on visual focus can be blocked by placing something, anything, in the caster's line of sight. Pain has many expendable summons, smoke cloud-erecting explosives, and unpredictable gravity waves that can throw off Itachi's aim.


-Ok you keep bringing up the cast time as if it would impede Itachi from hitting any of the summons though, which was my point. None of them have V2 Ei speeds (which is what we saw barely dodge Amaterasu), none of them can keep up with Itachi's jutsu execution, and since Ama doesn't travel like a projectile they can't save eachother like with FRS, until after the path is hit.

-Unless Pain is in a situation similar to Hebi Sasuke vs Itachi none of the paths will have time to:
-Summon
-erect a cloud, or wall
-Or use any jutsu.

Nagato got hit after watching it fuck Cerberus up, V2 Ei escaped by the skin of his teeth, Madara with sensing was hit (albeit from behind), etc. the only path who even has the slightest chance at messing up Itachi's casting is Deva, and if Itachi cast it before Deva realizes he is fucked.




> This is dumb, and it doesn't make any sense. If Amaterasu rendered Nagato's _body_ incapable of performing, Kabuto wouldn't have been able to do anything about that by seizing control of Nagato's _mind._


I think it is more stupid that Nagato just decided to take a nap in a blanketof amaterasu but I guess I'm just weird for thinking that 

-Nagato goes down, and begins burning.
-His body only responds when Kabuto forcibly takes over.

what the hell about that leads you to believe that Nagato didn't need a third party source to rid himself of the flames? he would have done it as soon as he was on fire, or ya know absorbed the flames with the Great Preta Path you guys love talking about.

So why Rocky, does Pain nap in the garden of flames, I would love to hear your reasoning.



> Edo Tensei _do not have to_ defend themselves if they do not wish to. This was also exemplified by the notably fast 3rd Raikage being blasted, _directly_, by fucking Temari and a bunch of cannon fodder.


-Nagato went from potentially allowing Naruto to get killed, and actively shouting every 5 fucking seconds " I can't control myself!" to actively chilling on the floor in 2 seconds flat. If Nagato could let himself get hit (which implies he can control certain actions) why the fuck did he fly off in the first place? It is cannon fact that the shinobi on autopilot can't use their brains to plan attacks. The simply attack and defend. 

We have countless fucking examples of Edo's who want to be beaten but can't stop fighting, what is there excuse? If all edo's can "let themselves get hit" they wouldn't be a problem unless directly controlled in the first place. 

The Raikage example specifically goes with my point. Wasn't he the one who dodged an FRS? He was clearly fighting with I don't know* like > 1,000 people around him* , to claim he let himself get hit not only goes against the cannon but is hilariious at best, especially when the reasoning is you pulling the fodder card. This is like the worst evidence I have seen for anything in my life. It really is.



> And don't give me that "oh but it was an AoE attack!" bull either. The wall of wind was _barley_ taller than the Raikage himself, if that, and someone at the physical level of Sandaime would have no issues leaping over the attack.


-Madara was hit by Tsunade and Ei (lightened by Onooki, because he was facing 5 people (who all individually are <<< him). Does this mean that Madara would get like that vs Ei or Tsunade alone? No because there are more factors taking away from his attention. 
-Raikage was on autopilot, and fighting mass amounts of people.

your argument is moot.

_Period. _




> There are moments when the Edo have there bodies forced against their will, that is true. However, there are also moments when they can act of their own accord. This was even on display in the damn Nagato fight; I'm pretty sure that Itachi freeing himself with Koto Amatsukami was not of Kabuto's doing.


-the only moments when Edo's have explicitly gone against orders involves their feelings. For example Sai's brother couldn't "let himself get hit" but because he got closure after death his soul was released. Hanzo is the other example and he essentially pulled one over on Kabuto who didn't know the secret of his poison liver, his body shut down before Kabuto could do anything, and Hanzo doesn't have a jutsu to disperse the gas. (plus his soul was release after closure as well). There are no documented instances of an edo letting themselves be hit. Kishi has never mentioned this is even possible, and it goes against the technique itself. The only two cases are Hashi (lol hashi) and Madara (who used a fuinjutsu to escape, and he wasn't even being controlled).

Yet despite this we have numerous instances of edo's wanting to be defeated or hit, yet not being able to do so.


I'll concede the point, for the ambiguity of the entire fight alone.


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## Dr. White (Jun 25, 2014)

> ....yes, they don't start out positioned in a way that eliminates blind spots, but is not difficult for the bodies to, you know, _turn around._ They don't need to be in a circle around Itachi to erase their own blind spots, they just need to be looking in every direction, a simple feat for twelve eyes.


This is pretty hard to do when the opponent:
-Is >> every path in: reactions, shushin/movement speed, and reactions.
-Can temporarily disable multiple paths with genjutsu. Not allowing them to regroup.
-Can OHKO any with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu (taking them out until they can be revived; which also requires more paths to be distracted)
-Is a bushin master who can cast faster than the sharingan can see, and only needs a millisecond to capatilize and substitue a clone (like how kakashi/Jiraiya did).




> Nagato has plenty of information regarding Itachi, including the clone fuckery. Pain can casually adopt a formation that leaves no hiding spots and thus eliminates any and all surprises that may stem from clone feinting.


I don't see it happening. especially when Naruto was able to isolate clones by himself. and SM NAruto (in that arc) < Itachi in pretty much all areas except Stamina, durability, chakra, and stength.




> No.
> 
> Actually he failed miserably when aiming attacks at _Pain's_ _blind spots_. Jiraiya only managed to get the best of Pain by taking advantage of an intricate tunnel system and the fact that there were only _three_ paths. One of which Jiraiya had previously blinded because Human Path rushed into melee range against a senjutsu user.


I'm pretty sure he did because it was the only time in the series we saw him use KB. 

Itachi is also much more effective at bushining his only rival being Kakashi.

-Fortunately for Itachi is OHKO's don't rely on being in CqC, Jiraiya got really close to those paths each times using a punch and projectiles, both of which are much slower than Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano activation. The paths can probably dodge the latter but not the two former. Kakashi was also inches away from taking Asura's head.




> Tendo doesn't need to stand next to the other paths to attack _Itachi_ with a _ranged_ jutsu. That makes NO sense. And yes, it is within Tendo's character to spam with one Rinnegan ability bestowed to the body.


Becuase Tendo can spam with all the other paths doing their thing right?

Because Tendo won't be busy defending rather than attacking (considering Itachi is way faster off the jump).

Because genjutsu isn't real...(itachi's way of isolating people, like he did to Naruto multiple times.).



> I'm making an argument based on what we know about each character. You just keep feeding me Itachi hype like I haven't already heard it enough. I don't need to hear about his speed, his planning, his reflexes, or any of his other skills anymore than you need to hear about Pain's colossal stamina, overwhelming firepower, unmatched versatility, and significant numbers advantage.


All of the things you mentioned are contingent upon the stats I listed: speed, reactions and cast time. If Itachi is much superior than them in those categories (also gonna throw in strategy which is mucho important.) how the hell do they use said things?

you can give Konohamaru CT/ST, etc and Asuma will still rape him. I'm not saying the gap is that big here, but if SM Naruto was giving them problems Itachi is gonna be a world of hurt.



> You need to do a better job of telling me how exactly Itachi uses his skills to fight Pain, because "Itachi gets into close quarters and genjutarasu seals them GG " isn't going to cut it.


You act like I need to pull out equations. Itachi get's close to them, and uses genjutsu. Like he needed legitmately 1 second between dodging and casting a katon to ensnare Bee, who despite having the perfect counter was caught for multiple panels. The paths defense isn't nearly as good, they are way more reliant on their eyes, and under Bee in every category. You act like this isn't Itachi main calling card.

how about you explain how the hell they successfully don't get genjutsu'd?




> Chibaku Tensei is the size of a mountain range, and I don't remember seeing Totsuka extend that far. By the time Itachi is pulled into the construct, the core will be unreachable.


-Yamata Summon from Orochimaru was mentioned to dwarf Aoda who is huge in his own right, and durable enough to take a fucking town buster at point blank range. Susano had no trouble dealing with the summon. Also Itachi can hitch a ride on rocks being pulled up from the beginning to get their faster.

Totsuka is an ethereal thing, I don't think material restrictions like space, or size apply. time is the only essence. 




> I'm guessing you didn't understand why I said that. Though this particular quote if funny, because Pain Arc Nardo didn't last very long against Deva and Preta Path alone.


you mean after Naruto defeated the other paths, including lol one shotting Asura? Preta also got one shotted, and only got one over on Naruto in his second life. SM Naruto (who's cunning is no where near the the intelligence of Itachi) was able to trick Deva multiple times, including setting up the kill shot against Naraka.





> I'm growing tired of "Itachi because Itachi" arguments. Why don't you tell me how Itachi manages to feint a knowledgeable Pain with all six bodies in play. Go ahead, explain to me how he magically slips past all of those eyes attached to competent ninja with powerful abilities.


-fight starts, Itachi sends something like a katon, exploding clone, etc to block LOS. He feints under cover (rinnengan is not byakugan you need direct LOS to see) of the jutsu, similar to how kakashi did.

-He lol shushins out of their view using jutsu like katon, crows, or whatever to successfully stay out of their LOS (once again he is much faster, and they don't start around him), all he needs is under a second of them not viewing him to do so, given Sasuke couldn't track his clone weaving *while fucking arm locked with him* . 

-Genjutsu's a clone or two similar to Bee/Naruto in that they attack nothing, or even another path. Uses the distraction/ illusion on the affected paths (who obviously can't see him while under the spell) to either stay hidden or get out of LOS with the aformentioned way.


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## Dr. White (Jun 25, 2014)

> Feinting is meant to be used for a distraction the real ninja can aim their attack at their opponents back, aka blind spot. That action, aiming at the back, has proven largely unsuccessful against Pain, so go on. Explain how Itachi gets it to work.


Just like Kakashi if the paths think they are attacking the opponent all attention will be diverted to said opponent, hence why when Deva was fooled by RKB he was vulnerable to getting hit. Itachi has genjutsu, better speed and reactions, and EKB to accomplish such. Not even regarding the other ways.

If Itachi does get behind them (like Kakashi and Jiraiya when they failed to attack) Amaterasu soloes them because they can't dodge at Max Ei levels, if he gets in one of their faces (less likely) Tsukuyomi GG. 



> I'll wait.


Because Pain is invincilbe right? Because Itachi didn't sleep through a controlled Pain attempting to use Nagato's moveset to blow them out of existence right? Itachi didn't outperform two perfect Jins right?

Remind what one single person did to Nagato, besides Itachi? Go ahead I'll wait. Spoiler: Nothing. Itachi took care of Emaciated Naruto, and Prime Nagato prettu much by his damn self. Yes he had help but it wasn't implied he needed it with anything other than CT (which once again he brushed off as nothing reacting more to Kabuto's SM than Nagato's trump). 

also you people conveniently forget KCM Naruto (even in that condition) would have low diffed SM Naruto who fought Pain, and that him and Bee got No diffed by Nagato despite having 2 other people as well. why didn't faster than Raikage, whose clones themselves could solo kage, or the Killer Bee of Kumo do jackshit? Especially since Itachi had no knowledge, while NAruto* had it all*

Let us ask ourselves these questions when attempting to decipher author portrayal. 





> The Paths all connect to Nagato; he hears what they hear, sees what they see, etc. Knowing this, Itachi catching a path may result in Nagato being ensnared in genjutsu as well. We don't know how it would work. That said, Gama Rinsho didn't appear to affect Nagato himself, so I'm guessing a simple 3-Tome illusion wouldn't solo Nagato and all six of his paths.


Nagato's connection was broken up by Animal Path going into a frog, something Deva nor the other paths could figure.

If they were all connected as such Frog Song wouldn't have just soloed 3 paths. The only thing specifically mentioned to be shared between all paths on one level is vision. I think it's clear that each path is an individual just with Nagato's will/chakra guiding them.



> Genjutsu basically _is_ a non-factor. Pain has knowledge, a far superior dojutsu, and absolutely *no* reason to venture into close quarters (illusion range).


-Because knowledge just means genjutsu is jackshit right? Like how Oro beat up pre pubescent Itachi, and how Kabuto didn't need to have his eyes forcibly covered at all time right? Or like how Kakashi would only send in a KB verse 3 tomoe despite having it himself right?

Because Itachi isn't hyped for long range genjutsu powerful enough to control multiple people outside of a sensors range, right?

Because Itachi can't use his clones, or Shisui's crow to cast genjutsu right?

Yeah who am I kidding with knowledge, genjutsu surely is a non factor (your words not mine)

you also seem to forget Itachi has knowledge here and that:
-Itachi is a top tier strategist, and was praised by a sensor for having insight so good he mistook him for one. Kabuto claimed his insight was like an extra sharingan, unique to him.

-Itachi already figured out the Path abilites in less than 5 seconds individually. Pain's biggest advantage despite numbers is the opponent not knowing the fuck is going on. Itachi will not be phased by this because he is more intelligent than people like Jiriaya who needed two extra heads to get shit figured out in like an hour.

your argument right now sounds like "Pein is to good, because Rinnengan", despite Itachi being better in speed, reflexes and casting, and having the MS to himself which was hyped hand in hand with Rinnengan of being able to accomplish anything.




> The Animal, Asura, and Deva Paths excel at ranged combat and can keep Itachi away, without fail, using Shinra Tensei. Bombs, lasers, and expendable creatures can be thrown into the mix to compensate for the incredibly short interval in between gravity waves. Itachi needs his Mangekyou to deal with their attacks, and in your argument you seem to be granting him limitless stamina, which is ironically the opposite of reality.


Ama lols at Animal Path, also genjutsu > summons. 

Asura got blitzed by SM Naruto, and was portrayed to be under pt. 2 Kakashi, I'd love to see him get a hit on Itachi (not including scenarios where multiple paths are taking away Itachi's attention).
Even if Itachi did manage to close the distance through a feint, there are three other Pains watching the big three's blind spot, one that can absorb any ninjutsu Itachi may try. Furthermore, Pain can afford to make _mistakes_ because he can bring back the dead! Itachi does not have that luxury.



> Itachi needs Susano'o, his fucking _trump card,_ just to survive against Pain, while Pain's trump card is a multi-mountain buster that Itachi cannot do a damn thing about by his lonesome. "There is a clear gap in power", and I can't believe it takes this much arguing to prove that.


He only needs it vs Widespread ST's which Deva can;t use lest he blow his people's away, and IC isn't going to do until the fight reaches about high diff.

Seeing as CST/ST are the only things he needs Susano for and he can pull it up for short amounts of time with his chakra control, me thinks he can do alright here.

Like aren't you the one who claims Minato can beat the 6 paths?

I can easily claim:
-None would get blitzed because of 6 eyes.
-Deva lol ST's his kunai away, or Asuran blows them up.
-Preta > Rasengan
-Naraka revives any dead path
-Asura keep him at bay.

win for Pein.

but that isn't taking into account multiple things about Minato which would allow him to fight much better than what I am potraying which include speed, reflexes, jutsu speed, and hax.

Edit: You prob won't read/respond to this anyway.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I gave you straight panels of how Kishi was portraying Itachi vs Nagato and you just keep repeatin yourself. So I'll take it as a concession. Since you can't argue back or counter my points with shit from the manga.



You gave panels and misinterpreted the message they sent entirely. If you read my posts you'd see that was why your argument wasn't considered adequate. 

Also use "concession" in the proper context. The way you used it in this reflects poorly on you.
It makes sense if I said I concede. However I simply criticized your approach to which you go "I'll take [that] as a concession". 

Most importantly: you've still not told me why I should see the manga pages the way you're saying I should see them. You're simply saying they're that way without sufficient support.


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## Dr. White (Jun 26, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You gave panels and misinterpreted the message they sent entirely. If you read my posts you'd see that was why your argument wasn't considered adequate.


-You didn't give me any reasons that coincide with the manga as to why my arguments were wrong, you simply just stated they are. Nothing I claimed goes against what Kishi was trying to portray in the manga. It isn't my fault you refuse to take it as is. 

The facts are:
-Itachi outperformed everybody in that fight. If Nagato was as powerful as you claim to be he would have soloed in emaciated form. Itachi took care of every aspect of that fight, and completely made 2 perfect Jins look like incompetent fighters.
-Kishi had Itachi strain very little in that fight if at all. He nonchalantly countered Nagato, laughed during his trumpcard, and then gave him last rights.

Everything I said about Nagato gaining a new perspective about Itachi is true as well.

All the symobolism I pointed you never fucking argued against. Just claimed it was wrong.  

Like Munboy when you debate someone's claims you must either offer counter evidence, or thoroughly point out why the claim is wrong or ridiculous.




> Also use "concession" in the proper context. The way you used it in this reflects poorly on you.
> It makes sense if I said I concede. However I simply criticized your approach to which you go "I'll take [that] as a concession".


I don't care about anyone's opinion of me on here. Like I come here to debate, and talk with friends. If you aren't going to debate properly I'm not going to give you the time of day. I asked you multiple times to address my points thoroughly which you still have failed to do. So I take it as a concession.



> Most importantly: you've still not told me why I should see the manga pages the way you're saying I should see them. You're simply saying they're that way without sufficient support


Because it isn't like I'm taking ambiguous shit, and simply makeing up theories or interpretations that are reaching, I'm legit telling you what is happening on the panel that Kishi (ya know the guy who created/runs the Narutoverse) decided to spill ink on.


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