# Asuma vs Tsunade



## joshhookway (Apr 13, 2013)

location: where Asuma got slaughtered by hidan
Distance: 50 meters
SOM: IC
Knowledge: Full
Restrictions: kaysuya, Bykugou


----------



## bleakwinter (Apr 13, 2013)

*Tsunade wins (10/10)*

As illustrated in the Asuma versus Hidan fight, Asuma needed to have Hidan held in place by Kagemane's binding in order to cleanly decapitate him. Similarly, decapitating Tsunade would be Asuma's only chance at victory, as his other techniques are too insufficient damage-wise to harm her beyond the scope of Byakugo's healing capability. His Katon only manged to inflict minor subcutaneous burns while his Futon remains featless (And was rather easily avoided by Ino shoving Choji out of its trajectory at that). Tsunade's regeneration simply makes her too resilient for someone of Asuma's caliber to mortally wound. She's also demonstrated considerable striking speed having knocked away several of Madara's Katon, saving the other four Kage. She should land a strike on Asuma eventually, which is all she would require to immobilize if not outright kill him.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 13, 2013)

Asuma is faster though. Hien could easily decap Tsunade.


----------



## bleakwinter (Apr 13, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Asuma is faster though. Hien could easily decap Tsunade.


What feats show that he is faster? His best speed feat to my knowledge is beating those 9 sound Ninja back in part 1 who were essentially fodder of unknown rank.


----------



## Guybot2 (Apr 13, 2013)

Tsunade ROFL-STOMP..


Smash the ground to cause asuma to lose balance then she welcome him with the punch.. 

i never see someone tank her punch before.. Oro is the exception.. 

J-man end up into a hospital when she and jiraya was young... 

people would avoid her punches.. they are One hit kill...


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 13, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> What feats show that he is faster? His best speed feat to my knowledge is beating those 9 sound Ninja back in part 1 who were essentially fodder of unknown rank.



Tsunade has 3.5, Asuma 4.5


----------



## Guybot2 (Apr 13, 2013)

speed dont really matter toward tsuande.. She have good reactions... Oro is really fast yet She punch him....


----------



## bleakwinter (Apr 13, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tsunade has 3.5, Asuma 4.5



Hidan also has a 3.5, yet Asuma still required Shikamaru binding him down in order to decapitate him, which was the entire point of my initial post. Similarly, even with a 3.5 speed and labeling himself as the slowest attacker in the Akatsuki, he had little trouble scratching Asuma with his scythe. Tsunade will be able to land a punch on him.


----------



## egressmadara (Apr 13, 2013)

Tsunade pops him.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 13, 2013)

You may as well change the location to, "where Asuma got slaughtered by Tsunade."

Asuma is cool, and an solid A rank ninja, but there's nothing at all to suggest he could possibly hang at the level of fights Tsunade was in.  Forget Byako, she takes him in base.


----------



## Sans (Apr 13, 2013)

r u          srs.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 13, 2013)

I mean, Tsunade is decapitated by a katon.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 13, 2013)

This thread reminds me of the above, oh how I miss the good ol days of trolling and pissing people off for laughs . For old time sake I say Asuma wins and Jad summed it up for me below 



> - No Katsyu: Asuma Wins: Full knowledge means, meter long chakara blades, causing Tsunade to only avoid the attacks, not to block or rush, otherwise she will be severed. That's basically what it comes down to. With Ninjutsu to reset distance in Asuma's favor if he feel he needs to.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Apr 13, 2013)

asuma wins. he has the style adv. & lethality to boot.

Actually, its quite a bad match-up for a restricted Tsunade.







.


----------



## Sans (Apr 13, 2013)

The air particles surrounding Tsunade's head decapitate her.


----------



## Samehadaman (Apr 13, 2013)

Tsunade stomps. If you run the fight 100 times Asuma may win it a handfull of times by decapitation, but overall Tsunade is on another level.


----------



## Bansai (Apr 13, 2013)

I just LOVE how people still underestimate Tsunade after what we have seen during her fight against Madara. The Tsunade vs. threads are getting more and more ridiculous. I'm actually just waiting for a Tsunade vs Moegi thread.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 13, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> I just LOVE how people still underestimate Tsunade after what we have seen during her fight against Madara. *The Tsunade vs. threads are getting more and more ridiculous*. I'm actually just waiting for a Tsunade vs Moegi thread.



Really? You think this is ridiculous? Then just wait until you hear how much money I saved on my car insurance by switching Geico.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 14, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> I just LOVE how people still underestimate Tsunade after what we have seen during her fight against Madara. The Tsunade vs. threads are getting more and more ridiculous. I'm actually just waiting for a Tsunade vs Moegi thread.



What did Tsunade do against Madara again. Get toyed and bisected? She also lost to part 1 kabuto. Asuma is a perfect match for her. Asuma is faster than Tsunade.


----------



## Bansai (Apr 15, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Really? You think this is ridiculous? Then just wait until you hear how much money I saved on my car insurance by switching Geico.


You shouldn't make jokes about Geico. They have their eyes everywhere. 





joshhookway said:


> What did Tsunade do against Madara again. Get toyed and bisected? She also lost to part 1 kabuto. Asuma is a perfect match for her. Asuma is faster than Tsunade.



Indeed, Asuma is known to be an excelent Taijutsu specialist, and according to the data book, his Haisekishō is as strong as Kakashi's Raikiri, but who do you think Tsunade is? Alright, she lost against Kabuto, but do you remember in what state she was back then? She hasn't fought in years. She was not used to close combat anymore, yet she did an extremely good job keeping up with someone who is as strong as Kakashi. When we talk about the Tsunade who fought Kabuto, Asuma would be a perfect match since Kabuto is as strong as Kakashi and Asuma is probably just a little bit below Kakashi's level. But the Tsunade who fought Madara was a completely different Tsunade. When she fought Madara she was used to combat again. Do you really think you can compare the Tsunade who had a hard time fighting Kabuto to the Tsunade who did this?

*Spoiler*: __ 








No Kage was able to damage Madara in this fight more than Tsunade did, although it was a wasted effort.
 Do you think Asuma could have done such a thing!? Seriously? Asuma vs the Tsunade who fought Kabuto would be a great match, but this Tsunade would stomp him easily. It would only take her a few minutes to have Asuma lying down on her feet.
And I could bet that he is not faster than Tsunade. It's not very clear in the manga, but it really looked like Tsunade was moving rather quickly when she first attacked Madara with her regeneration ability activated.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (Apr 15, 2013)

It's pretty clear that Tsunade stomps with literally no difficulty (don't know why mods haven't locked this yet). 



joshhookway said:


> What did Tsunade do against Madara again. Get toyed and bisected? She also lost to part 1 kabuto. Asuma is a perfect match for her. Asuma is faster than Tsunade.



I know you hate Tsunade, but really?

It was part I Tsunade who had been drinking and inactive in battle for decades against part I Kabuto, don't forget (you clearly haven't though, you just hate Tsunade for no reason). And she still beat Kabuto too, he only "won" because he used her fear of blood.

As for the Madara part, get real please. Tsunade was the most useful Kage in the fight by FAR, and was the last Kage standing despite Madara promising to take her out first. It says a lot when Madara could knock the other Kage out cold with ease, yet had to fucking bisect her body to keep her down, and even then she's still conscious.

Against Madara, Tsunade healed Onoki, Gaara and Mei. Tsunade was the breakthrough they needed against him. They weren't doing shit to Madara until she stepped in. Tsunade broke through Susanoo effortlessly. She forced him into using a wood clone. She charged Onoki up with chakra to take out the Susanoo clones. She was the only one doing any damage to the Susanoo clones, and she and Onoki were the only ones who defeated their clones. Tsunade was the only one who could react to Madara's fireballs. Onoki was dead twice without Tsunade. Gaara was dead twice without Tsunade. Mei was dead twice without Tsunade. A was dead without Tsunade. And they would actually die again now, if it wasn't for Tsunade. It's pretty clear Tsunade was the most instrumental in the fight (you could argue it's a tie between Tsunade and Onoki, but the fact that Onoki would be dead multiple times without Tsunade clearly puts her ahead of him in the fight).

Using databook stats is a very outdated weak arguments considering Tsunade's feats put her on another level to Asuma in speed, so no, Asuma is not faster than her, and he is in no way a perfect matchup for her.


----------



## Olympian (Apr 16, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Hidan also has a 3.5, yet Asuma still required Shikamaru binding him down in order to decapitate him, which was the entire point of my initial post.



Asuma required the help of Shikamaru against a shinobi who uses a long range weapon+acrobatics. Nothing of which Tsunade is particularly fond of using.  In that especific regard she is at the disadvantage compared to Hidan.



bleakwinter said:


> Similarly, even with a 3.5 speed and labeling himself as the slowest attacker in the Akatsuki, he had little trouble scratching Asuma with his scythe. Tsunade will be able to land a punch on him.



Hidan+adicional blades. 

Tsunade wins the majoriy but your points here are pretty much left up as too vague.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Apr 16, 2013)

Tsunade rapes.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Apr 16, 2013)

Tsunade is a kage op. Asuma loses every single time.


----------



## kala (Apr 16, 2013)

And why she had no Chances vs Pain as he charges at her? 
if naruto didnt came to safe Tsusande , she would be already dead.
She had no Chance vs Pain  and loses Kabuto.
Tsunade is about 50 Years and fightet the whole life even if she doesnt  for 1-2  Years ,that doesnt any difference. 
You  can say the same about  jiraiya. He doesnt fightet too all the time and writed books.

She is only Kage because of her medical skills.


----------



## Olympian (Apr 16, 2013)

She`s Kage all around, some stats are simply a bit lower. I don`t view her as good in close quarters as any of the main Sensei. But since she got other options, it evens out. 

It just strikes me as weird that the two main things against Asuma`s case from the Tsunade supporters are speed and how he was hit by the Scytche and then not make a single especific reference to how it happened.


----------



## Hero (Apr 16, 2013)

She bangs the shit out of his tight pussy


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 16, 2013)

Asuma beats Pre-skip Rasengan Arc Tsunade with High Diff.(without Katsuya)

He gets beat Low diff by Current Tsunade.(without Byakugou and Katsuya)


----------



## Ramus (Apr 16, 2013)

kala said:


> She had no Chance vs Pain  and loses Kabuto.
> .



Not saying you are wrong or anything, but Tsunade was under a lot of pressure in that fight  and the blood which she had/has phobia kind show she was not on her prime, besides wasn't Shizune keeping up against him until  she had too carry Tsunade avoid him and just got hit because he done a trap to her??


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 16, 2013)

kala said:


> And why she had no Chances vs Pain as he charges at her?
> if naruto didnt came to safe Tsusande , she would be already dead.
> She had no Chance vs Pain  and loses Kabuto.
> Tsunade is about 50 Years and fightet the whole life even if she doesnt  for 1-2  Years ,that doesnt any difference.
> ...



. . .The majority of Kages have no chance against Pain.

Your Kabuto point is hilarious. Tsunade retired after Dan died during the wars, that was 20+ years ago. 20 or more years without fighting. . .that's a massive handicap. Ask any athlete, whether it be a runner, martial artist, anything, and they will tell you that being just a month or two out of practice can make a huge difference. She couldn't even summon seeing as summoning requires blood. In spite of that advantage coupled with knowledge on his opponent Kabuto *still* had to ultimately resort to using her hemophobia against her. It couldn't have been made any clearer that an in-shape, non-hemophobic Tsunade would have steamrolled Kabuto with no difficulty whatsoever.

Jiraiya never retired as a ninja; yes he wrote books but he stayed in shape.

Tsunade is not a Kage only for her medical skills either, neverminding that most of those skills can be used for combat anyway. Jiraiya stated that her skills *as a warrior* were also unrivalled.


----------



## kala (Apr 17, 2013)

lol Kakashi could do much more vs  the strongest Pain.
Tsunade gets only attack by one pain and couldnt even react.
and Konohamaru beats  a Pain.

That is naruto not real life.
She fightet really long ,without getting out of breath.
How she does that , if she was out of shape?


----------



## Bansai (Apr 17, 2013)

kala said:


> lol Kakashi could do much more vs  the strongest Pain.
> *Tsunade gets only attack by one pain and couldnt even react.
> and Konohamaru beats  a Pain.*
> 
> ...



Dude, she was about to turn into a granny. The fuck did you think she did before she faced pain!? She healed an entire village by herself. Of course she was COMPLETELY out of power, yet she at least had to courage to face Pain. Do you think that someone would be more tired after a fight than after healing a whole village for several hours?


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 17, 2013)

In part 1, a rusty Tsunade took out shizune before Shizune even knew what was happened.  By databook stats shizune tsunade has a 4 in speed and should be the one doing the blitzing.  We've also seen Asuma get blitzed by Kakuzu who only has a 4 in speed stat. 

So the databook giving Asuma a 4.5 really means jack squat in this match.  Going by speed feats, Tsunade would easily be the faster of the two of them with her shizune blitzing feat, her konoha crossing feat while heavily injured or her feat of intercepting Madara's katons.

Asuma might be a good matchup against Tsunade, but she still wins this matchup.  Sure fast slicing attacks are good against her, however she like sakura are dodging experts and surely she knows the danger of both is techniques and the ways to bypass her own healing.  I can see her landing a death blow on him before he lands a direct hit with his hein.  Then of course there's the option of impailing herself with the hein in order to land a blow on him and then heal from the damage.  

Tsunade is very durable as Kusanagi was only able to slice through her side a little when orochimaru used a powerful side slash with it, I doubt Asuma is going to be a able to cut through her without some serious momentum behind his swings even with his chakra flow.

Tsunade is da winner.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 17, 2013)

kala said:


> lol Kakashi could do much more vs  the strongest Pain.
> Tsunade gets only attack by one pain and couldnt even react.
> and Konohamaru beats  a Pain.
> 
> ...



Kakashi, who himself is Kage level, had backup eventually coming to aid him. Deva path didn't use anything against Kakashi, Choza, and Choji that Tsunade couldn't have dealt with going solo.

Tsunade was on the verge of passing out because she had just healed thousands of people for the second time, and not had a Katsuyu division cover her from the impact of CST. She still made a fist, too, if you look at the panel closely. Regardless, that doesn't detract from what a healthy Tsunade could have done.

She can be out of shape and still be fighting really long, she'd have just fought far longer had she been in shape, not to mention noticeably stronger, faster, etc. And she was out of breath, that was the entire point of Orochimaru and Kabuto running away for as long as they did and that's what Orochimaru noticed before telling Kabuto to amp himself up with soldier pills.


----------



## Ghost (Apr 17, 2013)

Take away Tsunade's arms and Asuma wins.


----------



## Olympian (Apr 17, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Asuma beats Pre-skip Rasengan Arc Tsunade with High Diff.(without Katsuya)
> 
> He gets beat Low diff by Current Tsunade.(without Byakugou and Katsuya)



High difficulty against Tsunade with blood phobia and without any support from summoning? Pre skip?

Hardly.


----------



## Olympian (Apr 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> In part 1, a rusty Tsunade took out shizune before Shizune even knew what was happened.  By databook stats shizune tsunade has a 4 in speed and should be the one doing the blitzing.  We've also seen Asuma get blitzed by Kakuzu who only has a 4 in speed stat..



We only saw Kazuku blitz Asuma when the later had a crippled leg. And yes, I do believe Kazuku is the fastest of the two. 

Shizune hasn`t done really anything that warrants being around the same level. 



ueharakk said:


> So the databook giving Asuma a 4.5 really means jack squat in this match.  Going by speed feats, Tsunade would easily be the faster of the two of them with her shizune blitzing feat, her konoha crossing feat while heavily injured or her feat of intercepting Madara's katons.



Agreed. 



ueharakk said:


> Asuma might be a good matchup against Tsunade, but she still wins this matchup.  Sure fast slicing attacks are good against her, however she like sakura are dodging experts and surely she knows the danger of both is techniques and the ways to bypass her own healing.  I can see her landing a death blow on him before he lands a direct hit with his hein.  Then of course there's the option of impailing herself with the hein in order to land a blow on him and then heal from the damage.
> 
> Tsunade is very durable as Kusanagi was only able to slice through her side a little when orochimaru used a powerful side slash with it, I doubt Asuma is going to be a able to cut through her without some serious momentum behind his swings even with his chakra flow..



Which do you think is sharper? Futton or Kusanagi? And who is physically stronger? Asuma or Orochimaru?


----------



## narut0ninjafan (Apr 17, 2013)

kala said:


> And why she had no Chances vs Pain as he charges at her?
> if naruto didnt came to safe Tsusande , she would be already dead.
> She had no Chance vs Pain  and loses Kabuto.
> Tsunade is about 50 Years and fightet the whole life even if she doesnt  for 1-2  Years ,that doesnt any difference.
> ...



Because she was about to fall into a fucking coma? 

Part I rusty Tsunade, who had been out of combat for 20 years, yet still beat Kabuto until he took advantage of her hemophobia?

Jiraiya still did missions you realize? He was following Orochimaru and getting intel on Akatsuki.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 17, 2013)

Olympian said:


> Shizune hasn`t done really anything that warrants being around the same level.



Well, Shizune's speed isn't too far off Asuma's. His taijutsu is way above her own, but his speed is only marginally above hers _[0.5]_. Furthermore, her senbon spitting technique is at least fast enough that a buffed-up Kabuto _[whose base speed and taijutsu exceed her own, and were increased further via a soldier pill]_ found it impossible to dodge. Also, as a medic with poor taijutsu ability, it is to be assumed that she evades attacks by relying on her speed.
.
As such, Tsunade blitzing Shizune, as an argument, does hold some merit. However there are better examples of her speed _[ones where her foe was actually fighting her]_



> Which do you think is sharper? Futton or Kusanagi? And who is physically stronger? Asuma or Orochimaru?



The Kusanagi blade could do damage to something that was diamond-level in hardness. Generic fuuton applied to a weapon have yet to achieve such a feat. Asuma may be physically stronger but it wouldn't have made a huge difference to his cutting power, not as much as the actual weapon he was using or the speed it was being thrown at.


Anyway, Tsunade stomps. Just as Asuma can throw attacks Tsunade can dodge them, and as plausible as it is he will land a few grazing blows, its equally as plausible that Tsunade will do the same. The only difference being Tsunade will tank the blows she receives, whereas Asuma will be thrown into a critical condition.​​


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 17, 2013)

Olympian said:


> We only saw Kazuku blitz Asuma when the later had a crippled leg. And yes, I do believe Kazuku is the fastest of the two.
> 
> Shizune hasn`t done really anything that warrants being around the same level.


sure, i agree with this.  The point of bringing shizune up was just to show how the speed stat in databooks is irrelevant.




Olympian said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Which do you think is sharper? Futton or Kusanagi? And who is physically stronger? Asuma or Orochimaru?


Fuuton is definitely sharper, but orochimaru did put a lot of momentum behind his swing and it still only dug into her side a bit which is why I'm saying Asuma would succeed where kusanagi failed, but in order to do so, he'd have to put a lot of momentum behind his slash.

Orochimaru should be the physically stronger of the two especially when using his kusanagi via his mouth and tongue.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 17, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> You shouldn't make jokes about Geico. They have their eyes everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL, your showing feats of Tsunade punching a clone.

Tsunade cannot deal with Asuma's hien. Asuma can cut through rocks. If Asuma uses it's blades as a light saber, Tsunade gets bisected even more.


----------



## Bansai (Apr 18, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> LOL, your showing feats of Tsunade punching a clone.
> 
> Tsunade cannot deal with Asuma's hien. Asuma can cut through rocks. If Asuma uses it's blades as a light saber, Tsunade gets bisected even more.



... Yes of course, because Tsunade is an immovable wall who can not dodge at all. 
Plus, the first and the second scan were not pictures of her punching a clone, she was punching the real Madara there. Great thing you pay so much attention to the Manga.
Cutting through rocks is also nothing compared to destroying an entire area with one kick. I bet Asuma couldn't have cut through a Madara clone's Susano'o. How could he if even the other four Kages could bearly fight the clones at all?
Part I Tsunade, who has forgotten everything about close combat like back then when she fought Kabuto would have problems dealing with Asuma, but the Tsunade who fought Madara wouldn't need more than a minute to kill Asuma. There's absolutely no way he could win this.


----------



## Olympian (Apr 20, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> sure, i agree with this.  The point of bringing shizune up was just to show how the speed stat in databooks is irrelevant.



More or less. It`s not that Shizune is slow, she`s just slower than everyone being discussed here. 



ueharakk said:


> Fuuton is definitely sharper, but orochimaru did put a lot of momentum behind his swing and it still only dug into her side a bit which is why I'm saying Asuma would succeed where kusanagi failed, but in order to do so, he'd have to put a lot of momentum behind his slash.
> 
> Orochimaru should be the physically stronger of the two especially when using his kusanagi via his mouth and tongue.



Why, "should", thought? He doesn`t look as imposing or have been noted to have abnormal physical strenght like Tsunade, Kisame or Gai, throught dialogue or especifc examples. It`s not Asuma`s calling card like Gai, but he`s the second most physical imposing (okay,_ was_) Shinobi of the village, after Ibiki *and* we have seen him briefly block Kisame about the same time that Base Gai did. That and his "I held back my strenght" to Naruto when training, clue in that he`s not supposed to be in the normal range of physical strenght either.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 20, 2013)

Olympian said:


> Why, "should", thought? He doesn`t look as imposing or have been noted to have abnormal physical strenght like Tsunade, Kisame or Gai, throught dialogue or especifc examples. It`s not Asuma`s calling card like Gai, but he`s the second most physical imposing (okay,_ was_) Shinobi of the village, after Ibiki *and* we have seen him briefly block Kisame about the same time that Base Gai did. That and his "I held back my strenght" to Naruto when training, clue in that he`s not supposed to be in the normal range of physical strenght either.



I think he's referring to Orochimaru pushing KN4 from their battlefield to the cliff where Sakura was.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Apr 20, 2013)

Kusanagi is a magical item...


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Apr 20, 2013)

50 meters and Tsunade restricted the way she is, I think she'd lose. What's she going to do exactly? Splatter him to death with entrails when he cuts her in half? Asuma even has blood-splatter resistance feats.

More seriously though, neither is significantly faster than the other (I'm thinking Asuma has a slight edge here), they both have insta-kill moves that they can use mid-fight, and on reflex.
Even if Tsunade makes it out of her current situation alive somehow, we have seen at least that she cannot regenerate her bodyparts fast enough to be relevant in a battledome fight. Otherwise she would have done so already. 
In other words, Tsunade's usual advantages, regeneration and instant kill punches, are kinda irrelevant because she can not regenerate from being cut in half fast enough (if at all), and her opponent also has instant kill moves, so that evens out.

The way I see it, Asuma has a large advantage, his ranged options. Mid-range he has ninjutsu, and short range he still has his hien that gives him better reach than Tsunade. 

Compared to Asuma, she really only has the following range options: throwing large rocks at him, or trying to punch the ground in an attempt to stagger him, a chump move that only ever worked on a dumb genin ( he literally ran right into her move). Both seem unlikely to work, since Asuma did keep team 10 at bay for a long time, and they have much better ranged options and coordinated too. Considering that, he should not fall for Tsunade's very predictable and basic ranged options. I'm just not seeing a win for Tsunade.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 20, 2013)

^ Your argument holds its value on the basis that Asuma could actually succeed in cutting her in half. Medics are specifically trained in evasion, and Tsunade happened invent the entire medical shinobi system and the rules which accompany them. She's also more skilled in taijutsu than Asuma is, and not far behind him in the speed department.

There's absolutely no way he could chop her in half, even top tier speedsters would struggle. None of Asuma's ranged moves pose any sort of risk to Tsunade either, her resilience means she can fight even if she is hit by a ninjutsu, and Creation Rebirth allows her to instantly regenerate afterwards.​​


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 20, 2013)

Olympian said:


> Why, "should", thought? He doesn`t look as imposing or have been noted to have abnormal physical strenght like Tsunade, Kisame or Gai, throught dialogue or especifc examples. It`s not Asuma`s calling card like Gai, but he`s the second most physical imposing (okay,_ was_) Shinobi of the village, after Ibiki *and* we have seen him briefly block Kisame about the same time that Base Gai did.


what about the akamichi clan? 

And the reason why I say Orochimaru should be the physical stronger of the two is because of his feats.  Like slamming jiraiya into the ground with just his tongue, being able to fight off base jiraiya (who looks more physically imposing than asuma) without arms, sending KN4 a kilometer through a forest with his kusanagi blade, and punching KN4.




Olympian said:


> That and his "I held back my strenght" to Naruto when training, clue in that he`s not supposed to be in the normal range of physical strenght either.


I believe the actual quote was limited my chakra, which is why his knife didn't pierce through the rock: because he limited the amount of chakra he put into the knife.


----------



## Synn (Apr 21, 2013)

*Tsunade takes this comfortably.*

While their difference in speed is debatable, Tsunade proved more than once that she can sustain damage and keep fighting even in a seemingly critical condition. [1]

Even with _Byakugō_ restricted, Tsunade was able to stand up and activate _Sōzō Saisei_ to heal off the damage after being badly injured. [2] Needless to say she accomplished that with her muscles torn, her throat sliced and lungs pierced.  Hell, she was bisected without having _Byakugō_ or _Sōzō Saisei_ active and managed to summon Katsuyu to help her comrades. [3]

I have read all kinds of ludicrous arguments in the BD, but some of these are just laughable.

Asuma doesn't stand a slight chance against her. He gets obliterated as soon as she closes the distance between them. Easy as that.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 21, 2013)

There's no reason not believe that Asuma can behead Tsunade with his lightsaber


----------



## Olympian (Apr 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> ^ Your argument holds its value on the basis that Asuma could actually succeed in cutting her in half. Medics are specifically trained in evasion, and Tsunade happened invent the entire medical shinobi system and the rules which accompany them​




She`s certainly supposed to be great at evasion, but that alone doesn`t avail merit in just saying it`s impossible for a Taijutsu especialist to close in. Not when Asuma doesn`t even need to close in as much as she would, he got the advantage in range, right?



Godaime Tsunade said:


> [She's also more skilled in taijutsu than Asuma is, and not far behind him in the speed department.



I don`t look at Tsunade as being "more skilled" than any of the 3 main sensei at it. Physically stronger is a given, surely, evasion..I guess, but Taijutsu "skill" carries more than just that. If you use the whole "she created the medical shinobi system" argument, then you`d use the fact that medics are supporters, not front attackers. Which is exactly what Asuma is. 

What makes her more skilled in taijutsu maneuvers than Asuma, for example?



ueharakk said:


> what about the akamichi clan?



If I recall, from one character chart (It`s been some time, thought), Ibiki looks the most physical imposing guy of the village. Asuma is the second tallest after him. Of course I am not basing solely on this, this was just part of the train of thought that I was going with. 

But yes, they should be physically stronger, even if they look less so at standard height. 



ueharakk said:


> And the reason why I say Orochimaru should be the physical stronger of the two is because of his feats.  Like slamming jiraiya into the ground with just his tongue, being able to fight off base jiraiya (who looks more physically imposing than asuma) without arms, sending KN4 a kilometer through a forest with his kusanagi blade, and punching KN4.



I`d say Jiraya looks about as imposing overall. The Naruto example is a good one, but he was stabbed with the blade when that happened, the opposite resistance would falter because of that.  

I can say Orochimaru is likely stronger than I gave him initial credit for, but the Kisame example still pushes it more to Asuma in terms of raw "muscle vs muscle" work. 



ueharakk said:


> I believe the actual quote was limited my chakra, which is why his knife didn't pierce through the rock: because he limited the amount of chakra he put into the knife.



The chakra around the blades looked about the same amount. The difference was that Naruto`s looked woogly and not sharp enough and Asuma`s was oppositively sharp. 

I can be wrong on this, but in more than one translation, I recall the adjective strength being the context. As in, holding back the throw behind the blade, so it wouldn`t have gone further to the ground by cutting throught the boulder behind the three.​


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 21, 2013)

Olympian said:


> She`s certainly supposed to be great at evasion, but that alone doesn`t avail merit in just saying it`s impossible for a Taijutsu especialist to close in. Not when Asuma doesn`t even need to close in as much as she would, he got the advantage in range, right?



It's one thing to say a skilled taijutsu user can ' close-in ' in close range, its another to say they can bisect her. Yes Asuma can get close to her, but I'm not sure if he has the advantage in range, since a lot of Tsunade's brutal attacks inflict huge damage to the surrounding area. Certainly the range of earth damage exceeds that of Asuma's chakra blades.





> I don`t look at Tsunade as being "more skilled" than any of the 3 main sensei at it. Physically stronger is a given, surely, evasion..I guess, but Taijutsu "skill" carries more than just that. If you use the whole "she created the medical shinobi system" argument, then you`d use the fact that medics are supporters, not front attackers. Which is exactly what Asuma is.



Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu in the Databook, Asuma has a 4.5. Jiraiya noted that her combat skills were almost completely unsurpassed during the Great Ninja War, and as we saw during Sakura's fight against Sasori, Tsunade's style involves prediction and finding patterns in the foes fighting style, and evading and countering their attacks accordingly. Sakura could do this against Sasori briefly, and Tsunade is faster with far more experience and skill than her student. 

And anyway, Tsunade is by her own admission _" not just a medical ninja "_, so her evasive ability should not be seen solely as a means of support, it can be employed effectively on the offense. The fact that she could stand up to, and land hits on _five_ Madara clones at once stands as a testament of her taijutsu ability.  



> What makes her more skilled in taijutsu maneuvers than Asuma, for example?



When it comes to manuevers, I can't say she's anymore skilled than him, but her actual taijutsu style is more effective than Asuma's. Asuma is limited to slashing his chakra blades and hoping for a hit, and granted his attacks have some mediocre range, but against any decently fast, flexible or durable opponent his attacks are a bit lackluster. Tsunade's attacks are almost always one-shots, the catastrophic damage she inflicts to the ground around her mean her opponents balance can be upset, or that she can force them into the air or chase them into a more suitable location for battle. 

Her durability and resilience means she can fool foes into thinking she's incapable of movement or tired out, and exploit their openings. I'm not entirely sure how they compare speed-wise, but Tsunade is at least as fast as Base Ei; if not faster, given that she could attack in unison with him, and even stop Madara's katon before he had time to react. Matching his speed really wouldn't be a huge problem.​​


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

Why do people come up with the bullshit that she reacted "faster than A" when Madara used his Katon? Tsunade volunteered to go forward because she was the only one who could tank the attack without getting hurt.


----------



## Jad (Apr 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm not entirely sure how they compare speed-wise, but Tsunade is at least as fast as Base Ei; if not faster, given that she could attack in unison with him, and even stop Madara's katon before he had time to react. Matching his speed really wouldn't be a huge problem.



Why do people think Base Ei is different to Raiton Shroud Ei? I don't remember it being mentioned that Raiton Shroud increased his speed, rather his reflexes. With the exception that when he pumps a large amount of Chakara to Shunshin.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

And it should be my turn, then, lol.

Why do people think that attacking in unison in this kind of Manga means a comparable speed? Gated Gai and Kakashi moved in unison and i doubt that Kakashi is as fast as Gai in base, let alone in gates.

We also have no clue how much distance the Raikage covered, when he moved and where he was. But instead, and this part is just me, of thinking that Tsunade attacked in unison with a faster version of the Raikage in V2, i rather think that Ei moved a larger distance (This is proven because he appeared from behind, and considering that Madara was being pushed back by Mei's suiton, the distance he covered was more than two times bigger than Tsunade's) and after Tsunade attacked (Since all the kages began to move once Tsunade landed the first blow).


----------



## narut0ninjafan (Apr 21, 2013)

This thread is still going? 

Tsunade is just another level to Asuma in literally every single fucking way.

There's only one troll here that actually thinks Asuma has a chance. Obvious troll is obvious, and stomp thread is stomp thread.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> Why do people think Base Ei is different to Raiton Shroud Ei? I don't remember it being mentioned that Raiton Shroud increased his speed, rather his reflexes. With the exception that when he pumps a large amount of Chakara to Shunshin.



Base Ei doesn't move as fast as a raiton shrouded Ei, I think thats pretty clear - there's no need to over-complicate things.



TheIronMan said:


> Why do people think that attacking in unison in this kind of Manga means a comparable speed? Gated Gai and Kakashi moved in unison and i doubt that Kakashi is as fast as Gai in base, let alone in gates.



Why do people think that just because Gai and Kakashi's feat was inconsistent, that Tsunade and Ei's must be as well? There's a weird unspoken rule about this in the BD that I don't see the logic in. Base Ei is fast, that much is clear. But this was originally cited by Zetsu, who isn't exactly a speedster himself. That doesn't detract from the statement that he is indeed fast, but it would mean a lot more if an actual fast opponent cited his speed in base. There is reason to believe that Gai and Kakashi keeping with each other was inconsistent, but there isn't any reason to believe this with Tsunade and Ei. I could understand if it was V1 or V2 Ei, who is obviously faster than her, but it was just base Ei.  



> We also have no clue how much distance the Raikage covered, when he moved and where he was. But instead, and this part is just me, of thinking that Tsunade attacked in unison with a faster version of the Raikage in V2, i rather think that Ei moved a larger distance (This is proven because he appeared from behind, and considering that Madara was being pushed back by Mei's suiton, the distance he covered was more than two times bigger than Tsunade's) and after Tsunade attacked (Since all the kages began to move once Tsunade landed the first blow).



I was referring to this instance [ 1 ] Ei's movement in the instance you speak of is dependent on Onoki whose flying him through the air. If anything was proven in that panel its that Tsunade can move faster than an airborne Onoki can, not that she can move faster than a lightened V2 Ei, whose obviously much faster than her.​​


----------



## Jad (Apr 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Base Ei doesn't move as fast as a raiton shrouded Ei, I think thats pretty clear - there's no need to over-complicate things.



Viz Translation

*C*: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...

Reaction speed, reflexes. The Raiton Chakara augment his reflexes not his bodily movements.

Another translation

[6] The speed of Raikage-sama's nervous system and reflexes... are comparable to those of the Yellow Flash.... These guys are almost keeping up / But since he has the raiton Chakra amplifying his reflexes, not even the Sharingan can match him / On top of that he's still...

3

Nothing states his bodily movements increase. Just his reflexes. I mean, it would have just been easy for Kishi to say "Ei's (overall) speed increases"


----------



## narut0ninjafan (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Why do people come up with the bullshit that she reacted "faster than A" when Madara used his Katon? Tsunade volunteered to go forward because she was the only one who could tank the attack without getting hurt.



Mei tried to react but wasn't fast enough. Tsunade gave no indication she would take the attack for them. Mei showed worry for Tsunade so I doubt they wanted her to just tank the attack for them.

If any of the Kage could react, they would have dodged rather than not move and get saved by Tsunade.



TheIronMan said:


> And it should be my turn, then, lol.
> 
> Why do people think that attacking in unison in this kind of Manga means a comparable speed? Gated Gai and Kakashi moved in unison and i doubt that Kakashi is as fast as Gai in base, let alone in gates.



But Gai moved further than him in what you're talking about, and the direction of motion showed he moved in a circle, whereas Kakashi moved linearly. I don't think that's a fair comparison to discredit Tsunade.



> We also have no clue how much distance the Raikage covered, when he moved and where he was. But instead, and this part is just me, of thinking that Tsunade attacked in unison with a faster version of the Raikage in V2, i rather think that Ei moved a larger distance (This is proven because he appeared from behind, and considering that Madara was being pushed back by Mei's suiton, the distance he covered was more than two times bigger than Tsunade's) and after Tsunade attacked (Since all the kages began to move once Tsunade landed the first blow).



Actually, there was a panel where A was moving towards him and Madara towards A (since the water dragon spat him out towards him) and Tsunade was nowhere in the panel. Evidently she was further away from him. Yet they both arrived at the same time to launch the attack in unison. In the time frame between those two events, Tsunade caught up and struck in unison with him, which is what people are trying to say.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> Viz Translation
> 
> *C*: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...
> 
> ...



Higher reflexes allow Ay to move faster. If he was moving too fast for him to register what was going on he'd be running into walls and stuff. 

Then the fact that C says "impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are" and then goes to "not even  the sharingan will be able to keep up with him" does indeed tell us that Ay starts going faster. If his bodily movements didn't increase activating the shroud wouldn't have made a difference. . .at all.


----------



## bleakwinter (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> Viz Translation
> 
> *C*: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...
> 
> ...



The problem is that feats and on-panel occurrences show otherwise. When Ei had attempted to charge Naruto with his absolute full speed (1), you can clearly see that he activated his Raiton shroud (from his base state) in order to do so (2). Why would Ei logically waste time doing so if he could achieve that level of speed without activating a shroud?


----------



## Jad (Apr 21, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> The problem is that feats and on-panel occurrences show otherwise. When Ei had attempted to charge Naruto with his absolute full speed (1), you can clearly see that he activated his Raiton shroud (from his base state) in order to do so (2). Why would Ei logically waste time doing so if he could achieve that level of speed without activating a shroud?



Reflexes. Reflexes mean everything when you're a speedster, this is also why Minato warned Kakashi not to use his Chidori because he couldn't see a counter coming when he runs so fast [1] something like that. Plus what you're showing me is Ei going at full-speed which is only achieved through Shunshin no jutsu, so even more reason to have your reflexes increased. It' right there in the translation, his reflexes and thus reaction speed increase, C said it, he didn't conclude on anything else.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> Viz Translation
> 
> *C*: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! *Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him*. Plus, there's still...



The bolded. The sharingan _can't keep up with him_. And its all fine and well having significantly boosted reaction speed via lightning , but whenever you can't move out of the way of attacks fast enough it all goes to waste. Evidently, Ei can _move out of the way_ very quickly.




> [6] The speed of Raikage-sama's nervous system and reflexes... are comparable to those of the Yellow Flash.... These guys are almost keeping up / But since he has the raiton Chakra amplifying his reflexes, not even the Sharingan can match him / On top of that he's still...
> 
> _move out of the way_
> 
> Nothing states his bodily movements increase. Just his reflexes. I mean, it would have just been easy for Kishi to say "Ei's (overall) speed increases"



That's probably because Kishimoto expects readers to use common sense and see that he moves around faster in the shroud. It requires the reader to be physically told that his synapses are boosted with lightning to increase his reaction speed, because we can't deduce that by just looking at his raiton shroud

Heck, Ei activates his shroud before he _launches attacks_ so that he can throw faster strikes. [1] In fact, Naruto even _comments on this_. And when the Raikage wants to throw even _faster_ attacks he pours more chakra into his shroud [1] [2] It seems pretty obvious to me that Ei moves faster inside his raiton technique.​​


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad, are you seriously arguing that Raikage's Lightning Shroud doesn't augment, if not drastically, his movement/Shunshin speed?

We have Sasuke reacting to V1 Raikage perfectly fine, to being completely incapable of doing so against V2. It's obvious.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 21, 2013)

regardless if Ei's RnY directly increases his speed, indirectly increases his speed by increases his reflexes which in turn increase his speed, or simply increases his reflexes so that he is willing to move at higher speeds, the fact is that Ei's speed levels vary with the level of his RnY.

In base, he doesn't move (whether out of choice or inability to do so) as fast as when he shrouded.  When he is shrouded, he doesn't move (whether out of choice or by inability to do so) as fast as when he is using his maximum RnY shroud where his hair stands up.


----------



## bleakwinter (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> Reflexes. Reflexes mean everything when you're a speedster, this is also why Minato warned Kakashi not to use his Chidori because he couldn't see a counter coming when he runs so fast [(1)


A reflex is a physical response, which is entirely different from experiencing tunnel vision (The reason why Kakashi was told not to use Chidori). Kakashi couldn't see his opponents' counter, but that says nothing about his reflex. An analogous example is if someone was blindfolded. That person would be unable to react to something, not because their reflexes are poor, but because they literally cannot see what they're reacting to. Kakashi's inability to see a counter because he was moving so fast has nothing to do with his physical reflexes. Overall, the speed vs. reflex idea is a rather pointless dichotomy since the two are so closely intertwined. The vast majority of characters that have high speed tend to have high reflexes anyway, likewise vice-versa.



> 1[/URL]] something like that. Plus what you're showing me is Ei going at full-speed which is only achieved through Shunshin no jutsu,


Ei's Shunshin is called Raiton Shunshin, and he appears to only be able to use it while his Raiton Shroud is active (Hence why he augmented his shroud to it's V2 state (2) shortly before C stated he would use it (3)). This proves that Ei must use his shroud to attain full speed/use Raiton Shunshin. C also stated that raikage must keep his Chakras active to use Raiton Shunshin. No matter how you look at it, his shroud is a major contributor to his speed. 



> so even more reason to have your reflexes increased. It' right there in the translation, his reflexes and thus reaction speed increase, C said it, he didn't conclude on anything else.



Another problem is that you are subjectively adhering to only one sole translation. Upon searching for other translations and consulting the anime's translations, none of them even contain the word 'reflex' in the translation.


----------

