# Prime Rayleigh vs Current Kaido



## Gibbs (Apr 16, 2019)

Roger's right hand man vs the current Worlds Strongest Creature.

How does this go down?


----------



## g4snake108 (Apr 16, 2019)

Roger loses his right hand man after a tough fight


----------



## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2019)

Kaido after a very solid fight. As of now at least. Depends on how strong is Oda actually planning to make Roger's crew when they will be shown.


----------



## Geralt-Singh (Apr 17, 2019)

Kaido high diff+


----------



## Louis-954 (Apr 17, 2019)

Kaido wins after a tough fight, but he won't be pushed to his limit.


----------



## Beast (Apr 17, 2019)

Roger WB Garp 
Kaidou Shanks Akainu 

Shiki Rocks Sengoku 
BB Aokiji Kizaru

Ray Mihawk 
BM Fuji GB Old Garp
Old Sengoku

Ben Old Ray


----------



## Mob (Apr 17, 2019)

Kaido takes it


----------



## Steven (Apr 17, 2019)

Kaido high-diff


----------



## Unicornsilovethem (Apr 17, 2019)

One on one, always bet on Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Jin san (Apr 17, 2019)

could go either way


----------



## Dunno (Apr 17, 2019)

Rayleigh high diffs.


----------



## Ruse (Apr 17, 2019)

Could go either way


----------



## trance (Apr 17, 2019)

either way

slight lean towards ray

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Corax (Apr 18, 2019)

Well if force haki is really a key to beat Kaido,and Ray is force haki master....I would say he has a solid chance of winning. But it all depends on how Kaido will be defeated,so it is too early to speak about it.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Crow (Apr 18, 2019)

Rayleigh for the win. He was the PK's, first mate. And we already see how monstrous he is now, just imagine how good he was in his prime. He wasn't called the Dark King for no reason. Even Garp said the Marine's would have to gather their resources if they wanted to face another legend like Rayleigh.


----------



## convict (Apr 18, 2019)

I see Rayleigh as equal to Shanks. Kaido extreme difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 19, 2019)

Kaido extreme-diff or 50/50


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Apr 19, 2019)

Leaning towards Kaido, but can go either way.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gledania (Apr 19, 2019)

Kaido high diff. (Or more).


----------



## Gianfi (Apr 20, 2019)

They are both featless, but I don’t think a FM can take on a yonkou, not even Roger’s. I mean, if Roger’s FM were Yonko level, then there wouldn’t have been any kind of rivalry with WB, whose FM can at best hold his own against an admiral. So Kaido with high(low) or mid(high) diff


----------



## Dunno (Apr 20, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> They are both featless, but I don’t think a FM can take on a yonkou, not even Roger’s. I mean, if Roger’s FM were Yonko level, then there wouldn’t have been any kind of rivalry with WB, whose FM can at best hold his own against an admiral. So Kaido with high(low) or mid(high) diff


Just because the captains are rivals, the crews don't need to be. Law is a rival to Luffy, but Bepo isn't one to Zoro.


----------



## Gianfi (Apr 20, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Just because the captains are rivals, the crews don't need to be. Law is a rival to Luffy, but Bepo isn't one to Zoro.


Roger and WB were rivals in the sense they actually fought each others, it was not a friendly rivalry  a la Luffy vs Law, but more like BM vs Kaido


----------



## ImpalerDragon (Apr 20, 2019)

Kaido wins this easily. Medium difficulty. Rayleigh is nowhere close to a captain. He can defeat a admiral but Kaido will destroy him.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 21, 2019)

Prime Rayleigh >> Marco, of course


Rogers crew had stronger top ppl, but WBs crew was far bigger .. the captains were  equals

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Apr 21, 2019)

ImpalerDragon said:


> Kaido wins this easily. Medium difficulty. Rayleigh is nowhere close to a captain. He can defeat a admiral but Kaido will destroy him.



What the hell is this downplay? Rayleigh was most definitely yonko level in his prime. Just think about the portrayal he received over time and what he actually represents.

-Benchmark of Zoro
-benchmark of Luffy's king's haki
-compared to Whitebeard
-respected by Roger
-mocks admiral

Like the guy's hype is off the charts mate. High diff for Kaido at least.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Apr 21, 2019)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Leaning towards Kaido, but can go either way.



This.


----------



## trance (Apr 21, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> What the hell is this downplay? Rayleigh was most definitely yonko level in his prime. Just think about the portrayal he received over time and what he actually represents.
> 
> -Benchmark of Zoro
> -benchmark of Luffy's king's haki
> ...



theyre a troll mate

like a week ago they said croc was almost equal to mihawk


----------



## trance (Apr 21, 2019)

also



DiscoZoro20 said:


> compared to Whitebeard



this one is especially important because the statement came from fucking _garp _who knows exactly how strong each of these guys in question are


----------



## Imagine (Apr 21, 2019)

Kaido isn't losing to anyone's FM.


----------



## Fel1x (Apr 21, 2019)

you are too optimistic, if you think Prime Ray can kill any current Yonko (except BB)


----------



## Dunno (Apr 21, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> you are too optimistic, if you think Prime Ray can kill any current Yonko (except BB)


Luffy is about to learn the haki that Rayleigh has mastered and go kill Kaido with it. I think we can be quite confident who gave Kaido his scar.


----------



## Fel1x (Apr 21, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Luffy is about to learn the haki that Rayleigh has mastered and go kill Kaido with it. I think we can be quite confident who gave Kaido his scar.


Ray damaged kid Kaido? ok, nice feat

we all know Ray didn't do anything for a long time before Luffy


----------



## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Luffy is about to learn the haki that Rayleigh has mastered and go kill Kaido with it. I think we can be quite confident who gave Kaido his scar.



That's why Kaido conquered the island where that Haki is the norm because Luffy is about to kill him with it..



Kaido high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dunno (Apr 21, 2019)

Dellinger said:


> That's why Kaido conquered the island where that Haki is the norm because Luffy is about to kill him with it..
> 
> 
> 
> Kaido high diff.



Rayleigh wasn't on the island when Kaido conquered it. 

Coincidence? I think not. 



Fel1x said:


> Ray damaged kid Kaido? ok, nice feat
> 
> we all know Ray didn't do anything for a long time before Luffy



20 years ago, Rayleigh moved to Sabaody.
20 year ago, Kaido invaded Wano. 

Coincidence? I think not.


----------



## ImpalerDragon (Apr 22, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> What the hell is this downplay? Rayleigh was most definitely yonko level in his prime. Just think about the portrayal he received over time and what he actually represents.
> 
> -Benchmark of Zoro
> -benchmark of Luffy's king's haki
> ...



Yes he got good hype but it is nothing compared to the 4 pirates that rule this world. I suspect Rayleigh to be a bit stronger than Katakuri and Marco in his prime. Also he probably faced of against Marco when Roger and Whitebeard clashed and fight. Because i cannot see anyone who can match him other than the phoenix. Why would Zoros benchmark be anything impressive? Luffy can murder like 1000 Zoros at the moment and Rayleigh is never shown equal to Roger only because he said partner to him?



Daisuke Jigen said:


> Leaning towards Kaido, but can go either way.





Furinji Saiga said:


> This.



How can it go either way? based on what?


----------



## Corax (Apr 23, 2019)

Ray is Dark king for a reason. Roger was a Pirat king (also king). Ray and Roger are like Ben and Shanks (according to databook they are very close).


----------



## CaptainCommander (Apr 23, 2019)

Strongest FM is still a FM, or first lackey if you prefer. Kaido puts him down with one, maybe two swings.

[HASHTAG]#bringonthenegrep[/HASHTAG]
[HASHTAG][/HASHTAG]
[HASHTAG]#youknowitstrue[/HASHTAG]


----------



## Dunno (Apr 23, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> Strongest FM is still a FM, or first lackey if you prefer. Kaido puts him down with one, maybe two swings.
> 
> [HASHTAG]#bringonthenegrep[/HASHTAG]
> 
> [HASHTAG]#youknowitstrue[/HASHTAG]


Rayleigh is not a FM. He was a FM a long time ago. He's currently the highest ranking member of his crew, or in other words, captain.
If you want to bring up previous occupations, then Kaido used to be a cabin boy of the Rox pirates.

We thereby get:
First Mate > Cabin Boy
Rayleigh > Kaido


----------



## Onyx Emperor (Apr 24, 2019)

Useless ass thread, Kaido is strongest creature in OP, live with it.


----------



## Nox (Apr 24, 2019)

The irony is quite palpable when Kaido's victories are attributed to his titles. Whilst ignoring Rayleigh was compared to the WSM. A pirate Kaido was whinging about in his introduction. His position and status within Roger Pirates far outmatches a mere Emperor. A glorified title for silver medalist Captains. LOL, Kizaru showed more tact in challenging Rayleigh than the possibility of raiding a Kaido championed Wano. Prime Rayleigh wins this anywhere between Mid-High to Extreme Diff.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 24, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Useful ass thread, Kaido is known as the currently strongest creature in OP, live with it.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## Onyx Emperor (Apr 24, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Fixed that for you.


Fix your 47 chromosomes issue first.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 24, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Thanks for pointing out that I was wrong.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## Sayonara (Apr 24, 2019)

I dont expect every Yonkou Captain to be equals, I dont expect every person to hold title admiral to be equals and like wise I dont expect every YC first mate to have been equal. I mean what are the chances? I dont see Katakuri as Marco or Rayleighs equal certainly, not because Luffy beat him but because the way Oda portrayed these characters. King look to be epic characters too but I am not putting then on him on their level either unless its excitability shown or hes given equal hype.

Rayleigh has a really strong portrayal that automatically puts him in same ballpark than Kaidou. If current Kaidou is revealed to be stronger now than he was in the past I would be more inclined to favor him. If turns out Luffy is able to inflict serious damage on Kaidou with his own strength by end of arc I am going be more inclined to believe Rayleigh could take him rather than belief Luffy surpassed Rayleigh.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 24, 2019)




----------



## trance (Apr 24, 2019)

Member Since: Mar 25, 2019

heh


----------



## Crow (Apr 25, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Useless ass thread, Kaido is strongest creature in OP, live with it.



I can name a couple characters that he probably isn't stronger than. 


Roger
Prime Garp
Dragon


----------



## CaptainCommander (Apr 25, 2019)

Crow said:


> I can name a couple characters that he probably isn't stronger than.
> 
> 
> Roger
> ...



You might as well list Buggy and Colby if you're not going to supply reason anyway.


----------



## trance (Apr 25, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> You might as well list Buggy and Colby if you're not going to supply reason anyway.


----------



## Gibbs (Apr 25, 2019)

got a good debate going on. Please continue.


----------



## Kobe (Apr 25, 2019)

Not only we don't have enough feats on both, but we also don't even have a proper panel time for Prime Rayleigh.

Why did you want this comparison?


----------



## g4snake108 (Apr 26, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Rayleigh is not a FM. He was a FM a long time ago. He's currently the highest ranking member of his crew, *or in other words, captain.*
> If you want to bring up previous occupations, then Kaido used to be a cabin boy of the Rox pirates.
> 
> We thereby get:
> ...


There are no other words. The roger pirates disbanded when roger became PK. Ray was never the captain ,Roger was.Ray cannot be one for jolly rogers when there is no crew. And don't compare 2 different crews' titles to each other is a shoddy logic


----------



## Dunno (Apr 26, 2019)

g4snake108 said:


> There are no other words. The roger pirates disbanded when roger became PK. Ray was never the captain ,Roger was.Ray cannot be one for jolly rogers when there is no crew. And don't compare 2 different crews' titles to each other is a shoddy logic


You should probably take a look at the post I was responding to and have another go at figuring out what my post is actually saying.


----------



## g4snake108 (Apr 26, 2019)

Dunno said:


> You should probably take a look at the post I was responding to and have another go at figuring out what my post is actually saying.


I did, there is no mention of Ray being a captain anywhere in that post. The post states FM < Captain(and all the crews FM/CAP till now have that relationship AFAIR) and goes off that line of thinking to assume something. . You are the one who brought up the "Ray is a captain now" statement, which he never was.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 26, 2019)

g4snake108 said:


> I did, there is no mention of Ray being a captain anywhere in that post. The post states FM < Captain(and all the crews FM/CAP till now have that relationship AFAIR) and goes off that line of thinking to assume something. . You are the one who brought up the "Ray is a captain now" statement, which he never was.


My point is that arguing based on positions is ridiculous. A statement like "A FM is still a FM" does not belong in a thread about strength. My post is obviously rubbish taking that line of thinking o it's extreme. And yes, Rayleigh is the highest ranking member on his crew, which makes him the captain, in a similar same way to Marco and Mihawk.


----------



## trance (Apr 26, 2019)

ray's the unofficial second captain of the roger pirates


----------



## g4snake108 (Apr 27, 2019)

Dunno said:


> My point is that arguing based on positions is ridiculous. A statement like "A FM is still a FM" does not belong in a thread about strength. My post is obviously rubbish taking that line of thinking o it's extreme. And yes, Rayleigh is the highest ranking member on his crew, which makes him the captain, in a similar same way to Marco and Mihawk.


Yes,up to a certain extent positions don't mean much,especially when there are multiple people on the same position, I did not argue that.
You cannot be a captain of the pirates that no longer exists and have disbanded years ago.Ray has not been the jolly rogers captain,Roger was and they disbanded before Roger died.Marco lead the WB commanders after WB's death, so yeah he may have been a captain, Ray never did such thing..Don't know what you said by mihawk.


----------



## Corax (Apr 28, 2019)

Garp who was equal to Roger said that Ray is a major threat and marines need to gather their best forces to catch him. On the other hand he kicked Marco like  a dog. So Ray isn't a normal FM.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 28, 2019)

g4snake108 said:


> Yes,up to a certain extent positions don't mean much,especially when there are multiple people on the same position, I did not argue that.
> You cannot be a captain of the pirates that no longer exists and have disbanded years ago.Ray has not been the jolly rogers captain,Roger was and they disbanded before Roger died.Marco lead the WB commanders after WB's death, so yeah he may have been a captain, Ray never did such thing..Don't know what you said by mihawk.


Rayleigh is the captain of the Rayleigh pirates, just like Mihawk is the captain of the Mihawk Pirates. They are one-person pirate crews, meaning that they are captains.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Apr 28, 2019)

Kaido > Mihawk > Prime Rayleigh


----------



## TheWiggian (Apr 28, 2019)

Can go either way


----------



## Law (Apr 28, 2019)

Nothing absurd with Rayleigh beating Kaido since prime Ray is in the same league as the current top dogs. 

It could go either way but leaning towards Kaido.


----------



## g4snake108 (Apr 28, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Rayleigh is the captain of the Rayleigh pirates, just like Mihawk is the captain of the Mihawk Pirates. They are one-person pirate crews, meaning that they are captains.


Quote from the manga where Rayleigh says he is a pirate captain. he says he is a retired pirate. don't give illogical statements to prove your nosensical point. And I am still waiting on your confession that zoro is low diffed by chopper from the other thread..


----------



## MYJC (Apr 29, 2019)

1v1 Kaido always wins.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 29, 2019)

g4snake108 said:


> Quote from the manga where Rayleigh says he is a pirate captain. he says he is a retired pirate. don't give illogical statements to prove your nosensical point. And I am still waiting on your confession that zoro is low diffed by chopper from the other thread..


Quote from the manga where Mihawk says he is a pirate captain. There are no illogical statements or nonsensical points here except the notion that a FM can't beat a captain. Why would i concede that Zoro loses to Chopper? I can accept that you believe so, and that it's consistent with your other views.


----------



## g4snake108 (Apr 29, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Quote from the manga where Mihawk says he is a pirate captain.


Lol, what mate? I didn't even claim that-you did and are asking me to prove that it is true? Do you even know how this sub works?


> There are no illogical statements or nonsensical points here except the notion that a FM can't beat a captain.


Yours is a illogical and a nonsensical point. It's so nonsensical that you are asking me to prove it right because you cannot come up with facts to back it up. Waiting for Manga quotes where Rayleigh said he is the captain of the jolly roger pirates.



> Why would i concede that Zoro loses to Chopper? I can accept that you believe so, and that it's consistent with your other views.





Dunno said:


> I will accept your position if you also state that Kaido or King low diffs Big Mom or that Monet mid diffs Luffy, but I don't think you will do that.



I accepted it in my reply in the other thread, so accept zoro is no-diffed by every member of the straw hats including their pet


----------



## Dunno (Apr 29, 2019)

g4snake108 said:


> Lol, what mate? I didn't even claim that-you did and are asking me to prove that it is true? Do you even know how this sub works?
> 
> Yours is a illogical and a nonsensical point. It's so nonsensical that you are asking me to prove it right because you cannot come up with facts to back it up. Waiting for Manga quotes where Rayleigh said he is the captain of the jolly roger pirates.



What's nonsensical is demanding manga proofs for arguments based on reason. Also, I have never stated or implied that Rayleigh is or has been the captain of the Roger Pirates.



g4snake108 said:


> I accepted it in my reply in the other thread, so accept zoro is no-diffed by every member of the straw hats including their pet


I know what you accepted, and thus I accept that you hold the position you do.


----------



## g4snake108 (Apr 29, 2019)

Dunno said:


> What's nonsensical is demanding manga proofs for arguments based on reason. Also, I have never stated or implied that Rayleigh is or has been the captain of the Roger Pirates.





Dunno said:


> Rayleigh is not a FM. He was a FM a long time ago. *He's currently the highest ranking member of his crew, or in other words, captain.*
> If you want to bring up previous occupations, then Kaido used to be a cabin boy of the Rox pirates.
> 
> We thereby get:
> ...


Give me proof that Rayleigh was part of *ANY* other pirate crew apart from Jolly Roger pointing to the manga as evidence.Because otherwise, the only known crew of Rayleigh is Jolly roger pirates and you saying he is the captain is equal to him being Jolly Roger pirates captain. 

Your comments are flat out stonewall attempts because you know you made a mistake but aren't owning up to it. You have yet to provide any proof to back your statements and I have been asking them for 3 posts now.

You are seriously starting to sound intellectually challenged. Fandom isn't what we are discussing here, its Oda's manga and we go by proof about what is written there.



> I know what you accepted, and thus I accept that you hold the position you do.


And you accepted that zoro loses to chopper? Nice, logic levelstook a tumble when you started wanking zoro, now they are being at a all time low.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 30, 2019)

g4snake108 said:


> Give me proof that Rayleigh was part of *ANY* other pirate crew apart from Jolly Roger pointing to the manga as evidence.Because otherwise, the only known crew of Rayleigh is Jolly roger pirates and you saying he is the captain is equal to him being Jolly Roger pirates captain.
> 
> Your comments are flat out stonewall attempts because you know you made a mistake but aren't owning up to it. You have yet to provide any proof to back your statements and I have been asking them for 3 posts now.
> 
> ...


You misunderstand again. My claim was never that Rayleigh was the captain of the Roger Pirates, it was that he is the highest ranking crew member in whatever crew he is currently part of, whether that crew consists of only himself or not. He has no-one above him. He decides where his crew sails and what it does. Thus, he is the captain of that crew, just like Mihawk. Again, asking for "proof" for an argumemt based on reason is a bit coo-coo.

I obviusly don't accept that Chopper can beat Zoro and I never have. Nobody sane would do so, just like nobody sane woild believe that Kaido low diffs BM or that Monet beats Luffy. All I said I would do and all I did is accept that that's your position, which you should be able to understand with some basic reading comprehension.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Apr 30, 2019)

Prime Roger >= Prime WB > Old WB >= Kaido > Prime Rayleigh

imo


----------



## g4snake108 (Apr 30, 2019)

Dunno said:


> You misunderstand again. My claim was never that Rayleigh was the captain of the Roger Pirates, it was that he is the highest ranking crew member in whatever crew he is currently part of, whether that crew consists of only himself or not. He has no-one above him. He decides where his crew sails and what it does. Thus, he is the captain of that crew, just like Mihawk. Again, asking for "proof" for an argumemt based on reason is a bit coo-coo.


Crew - a group of people who work on and operate a ship, boat, aircraft, spacecraft, or train.
Crew - a group of people who work closely together
Again, the burden of proof falls on you to prove Ray is part of a *crew other than Jolly Roger* and provide manga evidence. The *ONLY* crew Ray was ever a part of that we know is the jolly roger pirates and he was not the captain of that like you claimed(the highest ranking member or whatever you called him). so 4 posts in, still waiting for your proof from manga or your concession.



> I obviusly don't accept that Chopper can beat Zoro and I never have. Nobody sane would do so, just like nobody sane woild believe that Kaido low diffs BM or that Monet beats Luffy. All I said I would do and all I did is accept that that's your position, which you should be able to understand with some basic reading comprehension.


You don't get to twist your words. And seriously don't get to say "basic reading comprehension" when you do not know what crew means. You flat out said, you accept that, I accept zoro is weak. I am just drawing from my "acceptance" that since chopper stood up to BM like you claim, he fodderizes zoro and zoro loses his shit against weaker people. Entirely your position because you are asking people to take chopper = BM seriously.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 30, 2019)

g4snake108 said:


> Crew - a group of people who work on and operate a ship, boat, aircraft, spacecraft, or train.
> Crew - a group of people who work closely together
> Again, the burden of proof falls on you to prove Ray is part of a *crew other than Jolly Roger* and provide manga evidence. The *ONLY* crew Ray was ever a part of that we know is the jolly roger pirates and he was not the captain of that like you claimed(the highest ranking member or whatever you called him). so 4 posts in, still waiting for your proof from manga or your concession.


And this is what happens when you google a term to find out what it means. Crews are usually multiple people, but one man crews exist as well. Specifically, in cases where the crew usually consists of multiple people, it's referred to as a crew even if it in certain cases only consists of one man. For example, the people crewing a tank or a ship is a crew, even if in certain cases, it's a one man crew. I never claimed that Rayleigh was the captain of the Roger Pirates, that is a blatant lie. 



g4snake108 said:


> You don't get to twist your words. And seriously don't get to say "basic reading comprehension" when you do not know what crew means. You flat out said, you accept that, I accept zoro is weak. I am just drawing from my "acceptance" that since chopper stood up to BM like you claim, he fodderizes zoro and zoro loses his shit against weaker people. Entirely your position because you are asking people to take chopper = BM seriously.


I stated that I accept your position, which means that I accept that you hold the position that you do. You are free to believe that Chopper beats Zoro and that Kaido low diffs BM if you wish, but I don't.


----------



## Hayumi (May 12, 2019)

Kaido High diffs. The only people I view as superior to him are Roger(obviously) Prime Whitebeard, Prime Garp, and Dragon.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## xmysticgohanx (May 12, 2019)

okeechobee101 said:


> Kaido High diffs. The only people I view as superior to him are Roger(obviously) Prime Whitebeard, Prime Garp, and Dragon.


 what about Shiki?


----------



## Santoryu (May 15, 2019)

prime rayliegh wins as per authorial intent. through a grand stature that was only second to roger. leading soldiers like shanks. dark king has haki which usurps in quality and perhaps magnitude but this is debatable. the problem is skill. kaidou is a savage beast who cannot see past the acute and swift sword slashes which when augmented by the KOC knock his eyeballs out in a prolonged match of kings.



okeechobee101 said:


> Kaido High diffs. The only people I view as superior to him are Roger(obviously) Prime Whitebeard, Prime Garp, and Dragon.



Prime Rayleigh>Prime Garp


----------



## Beast (May 15, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Prime Rayleigh>Prime Garp


Don’t use that stepped on crack.


----------



## Steven (May 16, 2019)

There is no evidence that prime ray is stronger than kaido

The WSC High-Diffs


----------



## Santoryu (May 16, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> There is no evidence that prime ray is stronger than kaido
> 
> The WSC High-Diffs



No evidence Kaido is stronger, nor is there any evidence that he is the WSC


----------



## Steven (May 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> No evidence Kaido is stronger, nor is there any evidence that he is the WSC


----------



## Quipchaque (May 17, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> No evidence Kaido is stronger, nor is there any evidence that he is the WSC



If there was no evidence that Kaido is wsc then people wouldn't call him that in the first place.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dunno (May 17, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> If there was no evidence that Kaido is wsc then people wouldn't call him that in the first place.


Yes they would. People say a lot of things without any evidence backing it up, both the characters in One Piece and the people on this forum. There is definitely some evidence that Kaido is the WSC though, even if it's far from confirmed.


----------



## Quipchaque (May 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Yes they would. People say a lot of things without any evidence backing it up, both the characters in One Piece and the people on this forum. There is definitely some evidence that Kaido is the WSC though, even if it's far from confirmed.



Ok so we should also consider Mihawk's and Whitebeard's title Baseless rumour? The whole world spreads the word that Kaido is the strongest. They don't do so just because they feel like it. There must be very good reason this rumour exists.


----------



## Dunno (May 17, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Ok so we should also consider Mihawk's and Whitebeard's title Baseless rumour? The whole world spreads the word that Kaido is the strongest. They don't do so just because they feel like it. There must be very good reason this rumour exists.


I have never said that it was baseless, which should be apparent from my post. There might be some basis to it, which is why it is in fact evidence that Kaido is the WSC, even if it's not of the conclusive sort. Kaido's status as WSC hasn't been confirmed by Oda the same way that Mihawk's and Whitebeard's have. It's an in-universe rumour. Whether or not it is baseless remains to be seen. "People" are spreading that rumour, and "people" aren't a very credible source.


----------



## Santoryu (May 17, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> If there was no evidence that Kaido is wsc then people wouldn't call him that in the first place.



Trust me brother, they would.


----------



## Quipchaque (May 17, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Trust me brother, they would.



No I don't trust you on that one. Why him, why not Whitebeard or Dragon? Akainu? We have never heard anyone refer to them as the world's strongest creature. Only about Kaido. Why is that? That fact itself implies there is evidence.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shuyaku99 (Jun 16, 2019)

Ray with extreme diff, very close fight but if he is almost Admiral level at the old age of 80 in his prime he could probably defeat Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

I wanna say equals tbh
If I were to roughly break down stats it would be like

Attack Potency->Overall Kaido with slight advantage unless we can scale Rayleigh's AP to Mihawk's who can casually cut large mountain sized Icebergs with shockwaves
Speed->Rayleigh was keeping up with CqC in Kizaru who can move at speed of light. Ray definitely takes it
CoA->Rayleigh, especially considering Luffy is using Rayleigh flashbacks to have CoA strong enough to defeat Kaido
CoO->Rayleigh scanning an Island full of animals casual is better CoA feat than anything Kaido has done plus portrayal of being CoO master and Luffy's teacher
Lethality->Swordsmen are the most lethal fighters in One Piece besides lethal DF users like Akainu and Magallen
Durability->Kaido with a massive advantage
Endurance->I'd give it to Ray as Kaido didn't have to endure much pain due to his insane durability. Not sure if Rayleigh is endurance God like Zoro but he should have top tier endurance at least.

Overall it will be Kaido's power and durability vs Rayleigh's Haki and speed. If CoA truly is the answer to Kaido's durability then Rayleigh probably takes it otherwise its a draw.


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> I wanna say equals tbh
> If I were to roughly break down stats it would be like
> 
> Attack Potency->Overall Kaido with slight advantage unless we can scale Rayleigh's AP to Mihawk's who can casually cut large mountain sized Icebergs with shockwaves
> ...



You are misunderstanding Kizaru's devil fruit. He doesn't fight at the speed of light but travels at the speed of light. Think of him like the Minato of Naruto who can blitz around at insane speeds but once he pops up again everything is happening at normal speed. That is why Rayleigh clashed evenly with him not because he is a speed monster. Granted I'm not denying that Ray could potentially be faster than Kaido anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are misunderstanding Kizaru's devil fruit. He doesn't fight at the speed of light but travels at the speed of light. Think of him like the Minato of Naruto who can blitz aroundat insane speeds but once he pops up again everything is happening at normal speed. That is why Rayleigh clashed evenly with him not because he is a speed monster.


Actually that's not true. He can also kick at the speed of light as he said it himself. His light lazers also move at the speed of light as Luffy had to use CoO to dodge them and supernovas pre TS couldn't see those lazers. If Rayleigh can move his leg to kick at light speed, throw lazers at light speed, what makes you think he can't move his arms for CqC fight at light speed?

Also it is a sword made up of light and if you observe their fight closely light lazer beams that factually travel at the speed of light come out of it and Ray was reacting to them. Rayleigh too fast lol


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 16, 2019)

Gibbs said:


> Roger's right hand man vs the current Worlds Strongest Creature.
> 
> How does this go down?


A high diff fight for Kaido


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Prime Ryuma beats both. 
Sword God ~ Prime Whitebeard ~ Gol D Roger > Kaido ~ Rayleigh > Mihawk

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Steven (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Actually that's not true. He can also kick at the speed of light as he said it himself. His light lazers also move at the speed of light as Luffy had to use CoO to dodge them and supernovas pre TS couldn't see those lazers. If Rayleigh can move his leg to kick at light speed, throw lazers at light speed, what makes you think he can't move his arms for CqC fight at light speed?
> 
> Also it is a sword made up of light and if you observe their fight closely light lazer beams that factually travel at the speed of light come out of it and Ray was reacting to them. Rayleigh too fast lol


Thats not even real lasers

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 16, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Thats not even real lasers


Kizaru is my dogs but he is not fighting at LS ).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Yasu (Jun 16, 2019)

We can't compare them cuz we don't know what "all out Kaido" can do but.

At sabaody (if i remember right) Rayleigh said that he lost A LOT of strength because of the age and that if he was young he could have "easly" helped the Mugis vs the Pacifista and fight Kizaru at the same time    so young Rayleigh vs Kaido sure can be an interesting fight but Kaido win mid to high diff (at worse)

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Cyrus the Cactus (Jun 16, 2019)

Man, people are saying that an FM can’t be on the level of another crew’s Captain seem to forget that Oda is gonna make Zoro on the level of the Yonko. PK crew > silver medalist failure Yonko crew.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dellinger (Jun 16, 2019)

Rayleigh doesn't have the hype of the world's strongest creature that can't get killed. When he gets such hype, make this thread again.

Kaido high diff and that's generous.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Yasu (Jun 16, 2019)

Dellinger said:


> Rayleigh doesn't have the hype of the world's strongest creature that can't get killed. When he gets such hype, make this thread again.
> 
> Kaido high diff and that's generous.



The "Dark King" yooo btw forcing Kaido to mid/high diff it's still crazy lol


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Actually that's not true. He can also kick at the speed of light as he said it himself. His light lazers also move at the speed of light as Luffy had to use CoO to dodge them and supernovas pre TS couldn't see those lazers. If Rayleigh can move his leg to kick at light speed, throw lazers at light speed, what makes you think he can't move his arms for CqC fight at light speed?
> 
> Also it is a sword made up of light and if you observe their fight closely light lazer beams that factually travel at the speed of light come out of it and Ray was reacting to them. Rayleigh too fast lol



Ok I forgot about that scene but still you can clearly see that he needed to accelerate his foot by using his light fruit and he can only do 1 movement or maybe 2 at that speed since his brain won't "calculate" his own movements at the speed of light if you know what I mean. In the sword fight with Rayleigh he was just fencing and it makes no sense at all that Rayleigh should be capable to fence at the speed of light while others use soru and devil fruits to even come close to that speed.


----------



## Flame (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Prime Ryuma beats both.
> Sword God ~ Prime Whitebeard ~ Gol D Roger > Kaido ~ Rayleigh > Mihawk

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Thats not even real lasers


Well it depends on your definition of "laser", it is amplification of light. Kaidos sword is made up of light, and is shooting light particles, photons to be exact. They by their very definition move at the speed of light. 

Not saying Rayliegh was moving at speed of light but I'd say he can naturally move at sub relativistic speed+his god tier CoO and he can keep up.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

I changed my mind, Rayleigh wins. Kaido is too slow and Rayleighs CoA is God tier too, he will cut clean through Kaido.


----------



## Steven (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Well it depends on your definition of "laser", it is amplification of light. Kaidos sword is made up of light, and is shooting light particles, photons to be exact. They by their very definition move at the speed of light.
> 
> Not saying Rayliegh was moving at speed of light but I'd say he can naturally move at sub relativistic speed+his god tier CoO and he can keep up.


Laser´s dont explode

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> I changed my mind, Rayleigh wins. Kaido is too slow and Rayleighs CoA is God tier too, he will cut clean through Kaido.



How do you know that Kaido is too slow if he barely fought anyone on-panel yet? Lol. And it's not like he looked slow against Luffy. We can only assume so because he isn't exactly designed like a typical speedster nor hyped to be but compared to Rayleigh he is still portrayed as superior imo.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> How do you know that Kaido is too slow if he barely fought anyone on-panel yet? Lol. And it's not like he looked slow against Luffy. We can only assume so because he isn't exactly designed like a typical speedster nor hyped to be but compared to Rayleigh he is still portrayed as superior imo.


Eh, I think most characters are too slow for Rayleigh. Only people I see on his speed tier are guys like Kizaru, Mihawk, Shanks, etc. I don't even think Katakuri can keep up with Rayleigh's speed despite him having future sight as Rayleigh fighting Kizaru is CqC is superior speed than snake man by far. He also quickly showed up and deflected Kizaru's kicking before he can even notice.

Are we talking overall portrayal because Rayleigh even in his old age is portrayed as a thread comparable to Whitebeard by Monkey D Garp. Kizaru thought he is in no position to capture Rayleigh despite him being old and rusty. Roger called him his partner and Rayleigh is absolute master of all forms of Haki and Oda even used Rayleigh to properly demonstrate Haki to users. I think Kaido is more comparable to Old healthy Whitebeard while Rayleigh prime is on the level of Prime Whitebeard by his portrayal alone.

Roger~Primebeared>=Rayleigh > Kaido.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 16, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> How do you know that Kaido is too slow if he barely fought anyone on-panel yet?


By blitzing  G4 Luffy who blitzed DD that stoped Jozu how was fast as fuck and stopped a slash from WSS !


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Eh, I think most characters are too slow for Rayleigh. Only people I see on his speed tier are guys like Kizaru, Mihawk, Shanks, etc. I don't even think Katakuri can keep up with Rayleigh's speed despite him having future sight as Rayleigh fighting Kizaru is CqC is superior speed than snake man by far. He also quickly showed up and deflected Kizaru's kicking before he can even notice.
> 
> Are we talking overall portrayal because Rayleigh even in his old age is portrayed as a thread comparable to Whitebeard by Monkey D Garp. Kizaru thought he is in no position to capture Rayleigh despite him being old and rusty. Roger called him his partner and Rayleigh is absolute master of all forms of Haki and Oda even used Rayleigh to properly demonstrate Haki to users. I think Kaido is more comparable to Old healthy Whitebeard while Rayleigh prime is on the level of Prime Whitebeard by his portrayal alone.
> 
> Roger~Primebeared>=Rayleigh > Kaido.



Eh I don't think that Rayleigh is faster than Katakuri and Luffy nor do I think that fighting Kizaru in close quarter combat is anything noteworthy. Especially since Kizaru didn't exactly try to dodge Rayleigh instead he just fought back.

And no I only mean portrayal in terms of speed. I could definitely see Rayleigh as superior to Kaido overall if he is in his prime.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

QMS said:


> By blitzing  G4 Luffy who blitzed DD that stoped Jozu how was fast as fuck and stopped a slash from WSS !


I mean in fairness that casual slash is far from Mihawk's speed max and Jozu wasn't really looking when Doffy applied parasite.

Also G4 never blitzed Doffy, Doffy was reacting to G4 with awakening just fine. The only move that caught Doffy was python because of its trajectory shift not because of its speed. Also this was gamma knife injured Doffy, who was barely surviving on internal stitches and Gamma knife made a huge impact as pre Gamma knife Doffy was treating G2 Luffy like turtle while post gamma knife luffy got hit by base luffy.

Blitzing G4 boundman is not really a great speed feat tbh.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Eh I don't think that Rayleigh is faster than Katakuri and Luffy nor do I think that fighting Kizaru in close quarter combat is anything noteworthy. Especially since Kizaru didn't exactly try to dodge Rayleigh instead he just fought back.


Rayleigh for sure is faster than both Katakuri and snakeman to me by far. I think Kizaru moves at light speed in CqC as well and I have no reason to believe otherwise.


----------



## Flame (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Eh, I think most characters are too slow for Rayleigh. Only people I see on his speed tier are guys like Kizaru, Mihawk, Shanks, etc. I don't even think Katakuri can keep up with Rayleigh's speed despite him having future sight as Rayleigh fighting Kizaru is CqC is superior speed than snake man by far. He also quickly showed up and deflected Kizaru's kicking before he can even notice.
> 
> Are we talking overall portrayal because Rayleigh even in his old age is portrayed as a thread comparable to Whitebeard by Monkey D Garp. Kizaru thought he is in no position to capture Rayleigh despite him being old and rusty. Roger called him his partner and Rayleigh is absolute master of all forms of Haki and Oda even used Rayleigh to properly demonstrate Haki to users. I think Kaido is more comparable to Old healthy Whitebeard while Rayleigh prime is on the level of Prime Whitebeard by his portrayal alone.
> 
> Roger~Primebeared>=Rayleigh > Kaido.


Marco was able to intercept Kizaru's attacks. Not to mention all top tiers get scaled to one another. Kaido as a top tier obviously gets scaled to them.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Flame said:


> Marco was able to intercept Kizaru's attacks. Not to mention all top tiers get scaled to one another. Kaido as a top tier obviously gets scaled to them.


Well based on portrayal, you can react to a light speed attack with CoO if you already see the attack coming. That's what Marco did as trajactory of entire YnK was in one directions. Its no different than Luffy/Zoro/Sanji dodging pacifista lazers.

But Rayleigh actually fought Kizaru in close quarters in an intense clash. There is a big difference between what Marco did and what Rayleigh did. Ray didn't just intercept one attack, he fought an extended clash. Considering Zoro can dodge light speed pacifista lazer with CoO, he can definitely dodge one snake man attack with CoO, but dodging an extend CqC assault is different story


----------



## Flame (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Well based on portrayal, you can react to a light speed attack with CoO if you already see the attack coming. That's what Marco did as trajactory of entire YnK was in one directions. Its no different than Luffy/Zoro/Sanji dodging pacifista lazers.
> 
> But Rayleigh actually fought Kizaru in close quarters in an intense clash. There is a big difference between what Marco did and what Rayleigh did. Ray didn't just intercept one attack, he fought an extended clash. Considering Zoro can dodge light speed pacifista lazer with CoO, he can definitely dodge one snake man attack with CoO, but dodging an extend CqC assault is different story


What? where did you get that pacifista's lasers are light speed? they're not lol

Yes, and as top tiers are all close in strength, I don't see any reason why any of them can't get scaled to that? Marco's case is debatable, I don't really care. But to say Kaido isn't fast enough isn't true.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Flame said:


> What? where did you get that pacifista's lasers are light speed? they're not lol
> 
> Yes, and as top tiers are all close in strength, I don't see any reason why any of them can't get scaled to that? Marco's case is debatable, I don't really care. But to say Kaido isn't fast enough isn't true.


Yes they are because Pacifista's lazers are literally Kizaru's lazers that are made up of light (photons) travelling at the speed that light travels at. Not to mention it should also be noted that Hawkins couldn't even see kizaru lazers and Urouge couldn't even see Pacifista lazer. And Kizaru's vivre card states you need to have high level CoO to even fight kizaru.


----------



## Steven (Jun 16, 2019)

Lasers dont explode FFS.

Stop with this shit.

No real Laser=No LS

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Lasers dont explode FFS.
> 
> Stop with this shit.
> 
> No real Laser=No LS


I don't even know what to say to this lol


----------



## Flame (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Yes they are because Pacifista's lazers are literally Kizaru's lazers that are made up of light (photons) travelling at the speed that light travels at. Not to mention it should also be noted that Hawkins couldn't even see kizaru lazers and Urouge couldn't even see Pacifista lazer. And Kizaru's vivre card states you need to have high level CoO to even fight kizaru.


Show me where it was confirmed the Pacifista's lasers travel at light speed. 

They were based off Kizaru's fruit. Nothing suggests they travel at the same speed. Both Luffy and Zoro dodged those lasers pre-ts, you're gonna tell me they had light speed reaction back then?

I'm not talking about Kizaru tho. Kizaru is already confirmed lightspeed. Top tiers get scaled to him and Rayleigh. No where was it mentioned the Pacifista's lasers are light speed as well.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Flame said:


> Show me where it was confirmed the Pacifista's lasers travel at light speed.
> 
> They were based off Kizaru's fruit. Nothing suggests they travel at the same speed. Both Luffy and Zoro dodged those lasers pre-ts, you're gonna tell me they had light speed reaction back then?
> 
> I'm not talking about Kizaru tho. Kizaru is already confirmed lightspeed. Top tiers get scaled to him and Rayleigh. No where was it mentioned the Pacifista's lasers are light speed as well.


I mean those lazers are based on kizaru lasers, look like kizaru lasers, and explode like kizaru lasers. It is up to you to provide a panel confirming they don't travel at the same speed as Kizaru lasers. If I see an animal that looks like a cat, walks like a cat, meows like a cat, I will assume its a cat. 

Luffy never dodged it lol, Pacifista missed that laser as their lasers take time to load and in the mean time Luffy was moving around. Zoro barely dodged it was still sent flying.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Also here is another fact for you @Acnologia 
If you fire a laser with enough energy at some matter, it could cause nuclear fission, which would liberate a huge amount of energy from the matter, causing an explosion.

Reference here


----------



## Steven (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> People can't fly. Sanji flies. Sanji is not a real person.
> 
> 10/10 logic!


Different thing dude.

Lasers in fiction are most of the time not real Lasers

Tell me,are this Lasers real?


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Different thing dude.
> 
> Lasers in fiction are most of the time not real Lasers
> 
> Tell me,are this Lasers real?


No lasers in fiction explode for dramatic effect. They still travel at the speed of normal lasers. I already told you there is a phenomenon in real life where you can make a laser explode.


----------



## Steven (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> No lasers in fiction explode for dramatic effect. They still travel at the speed of normal lasers. I already told you there is a phenomenon in real life where you can make a laser explode.


Answer my question ffs

Is that a real laser on this panel or not?(it was claimed it was one)


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Answer my question ffs
> 
> Is that a real laser on this panel or not?(it was claimed it was one)


I don't fucking know, I have not read that manga. If it claims it is real laser than it is real laser idk


----------



## Steven (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> I don't fucking know, I have not read that manga. If it claims it is real laser than it is real laser idk


Lasers do not bend.

Irrelevant what the Manga says.If it don't act like a laser,it is not one

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Lasers do not bend.
> 
> Irrelevant what the Manga says.If it don't act like a laser,it is not one


I mean it depends on the properties of laser in universe and source shooting the laser. Laser is essentially photons particles moving, with theoretical science fiction device you can bend laser.

You need to up your theoretical physics game lol


----------



## Steven (Jun 16, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> I mean it depends on the properties of laser in universe and source shooting the laser. Laser is essentially photons particles moving, with theoretical science fiction device you can bend laser.
> 
> You need to up your theoretical physics game lol


Ok im done.That gets too ridiculous for me here.Now laser can bend

@Flame I wish you much fun with this guy

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 16, 2019)

@Acnologia weren't you first debating that lasers can't explode in real life then I showed you that they can, now you are trying to argue they can't bend. Why do you fail to understand you don't know enough about theoretical physics to be debating this shit.

Here educate yourself a little


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jun 16, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Different thing dude.
> 
> Lasers in fiction are most of the time not real Lasers
> 
> Tell me,are this Lasers real?


 those are real. Genos explicitly called them light. I dont care what kind of laser rules real life has, if Genos calls them light, they are light.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Ok im done.That gets too ridiculous for me here.Now laser can bend
> 
> @Flame I wish you much fun with this guy


Are you enjoying this ?


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> Are you enjoying this ?


Why would he enjoy? I owned him in the debate like practically everyone else that I have encountered on this forum.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> I mean those lazers are based on kizaru lasers, look like kizaru lasers, and explode like kizaru lasers.


And that is irrelevant because the move needs time to activate and Kizaru needs time to think and you don't have a panel that shows Kizaru thinks at beyond LS so he can activate it a LS!

He can travel at ligh speed using the technic: Yamo Mirror!

The fact that Ray wounded him proves that, or are you saying that Old Ray is FTL after 20 years of retirement?



Shishio ishere said:


> Why would he enjoy? I owned him in the debate like practically everyone else that I have encountered on this forum.


Arrogance, I see !


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> And that is irrelevant because the move needs time to activate and Kizaru needs time to think and you don't have a panel that shows Kizaru thinks at beyond LS so he can activate it a LS!
> 
> He can travel at ligh speed using the technic: Yamo Mirror!
> 
> The fact that Ray wounded him proves that, or are you saying that Old Ray is FTL after 20 year of retirement ?


Rayleigh with his God Tier CoO can fight with someone and even land a hit on someone moving at speed of light even 20 years into retirement yes.

Not saying Rayleigh is FTL, but he should be around sub relatavistic. Definitely waaaaaaaay faster than Kaido.



QMS said:


> Arrogance, I see !


No facts.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> No facts.


Facts are only what Oda says, what you are doing is interpreting things based on beliefs?

If kizaru move and attack always on LS then all of the Top tiers move at that speed and the stronger ones at FTL. Oda did not say that!

Kuma also repled air at ligh speed, do you believe that air traveled at LS?



Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh with his God Tier CoO


FS>God tier COO so NO because it is precog  and Ray does not have that


Shishio ishere said:


> Not saying Rayleigh is FTL, but he should be around sub relatavistic. Definitely waaaaaaaay faster than Kaido.


Based on what, you first need to prove that Kizaru moved at LS then, to move at LS Kizaru needs to be made of photons that have no weight and he did not do that vs Ray so your claim is false!


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> Facts are only what Oda says, what you are doing is interpreting things based on beliefs?
> 
> If kizaru move and attack always on LS then all of the Top tiers move at that speed and the stronger ones at FTL. Oda did not say that!
> 
> Kuma also repled air at ligh speed, do you believe that air traveled at LS?


You know I am usually joking when I say facts, obviously its up to viewers interpretation but that's the beauty of power scaling. Majority of the things you wouldn't get direct answer to, and are left up to viewer's interpretation. In this case though Kizaru's vivre card clearly states you need high level CoO to fight Kizaru and it doesn't say that about anybody else. CoO can be used to predict an attack moving at speed of light and dodge it, while an extremely high level CoO and base speed is required to fight Kizaru in CqC.

No Kizaru moving at light speed doesn't mean all the other top tiers move at that speed, they just need high CoO and base speed on that level to fight kizaru.

Kuma pad cannons were extremely fast as Franky who was about as fast as water 7 Luffy who could react to lightening couldn't even see it. But them being LS is debatable, as he says its air repelled at light speed that creates a shockwave. Whether or not the shock wave moves at light speed is up for grabs, I would say MHS++++++ or low sub relatavistic which is fine because Zoro has always been and always will be speed god.



QMS said:


> FS>God tier COO so NO because it is precog  and Ray does not have that
> 
> Based on what, you first need to prove that Kizaru moved at LS then, to move at LS Kizaru needs to be made of photons that have no weight and he did not do that vs Ray so your claim is false!


Actually FS is nothing more than enhanced version of normal CoO. Rayleigh seeing the attack of that animal coming before it landed by its very definition is precognition as he is seeing those attacks before they even landed. Katakuri can probably just see longer into future than normal CoO user, probably its like if normal CoO user can see 1/2 of a second into future Katakuri can see 2 or 3 seconds into future. I was having this discussion on the discord, I feel like future sight is nothing but a fancy name given to Katakuri by fans, in reality its just stronger version of normal CoO. Rayleigh who can predict power levels of all the animals on the entire Island is much better feat. Plus I 100% believe Rayleigh's precognition (call it future sight if you want) is much better than Katakuri's. If Katakuri can see 3 seconds, Rayleigh can probably see 10 or 15 seconds. God of CoO if you will.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> CoO can be used to predict an attack moving at speed of light and dodge it, while an extremely high level CoO and base speed is required to fight Kizaru in CqC.


And you forgot that Kizaru has COO also and he is top tier so he has great COO and the best COO is FS so Ray does not have GOD COO for start!


Shishio ishere said:


> No Kizaru moving at light speed doesn't mean all the other top tiers move at that speed, they just need high CoO and base speed on that level to fight kizaru.


So Kizaru does not have COO then?
What level if Kizaru has LS all the time even if you have 10% of LS and good COO as see in the battle of SN VS Kata you can 't really win, also how can Ray have relativistic speed if Kizaru needs a ligh based fruit and if it is Top tier scalling then the rest also have it just saying!


Shishio ishere said:


> I would say MHS++++++ or low sub relatavistic which is fine because Zoro has always been and always will be speed god.


Hmmm tell how can air move at sub-relativistic speed?



Shishio ishere said:


> Actually FS is nothing more than enhanced version of normal CoO.


So it better COO then someone with Regular COO so Ray can't be good COO because FS would be beyond GOOD COO .


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> FS>God tier COO so NO because it is precog  and Ray does not have that
> 
> Based on what, you first need to prove that Kizaru moved at LS then, to move at LS Kizaru needs to be made of photons that have no weight and he did not do that vs Ray so your claim is false!


Actually Kizaru is made up of light, his laser beams travel at the speed of light, he can kick at speed of light, teleport at speed of light. So the burden of proof is on you to prove why kizaru using a sword made up of light that emits light particle in CqC is not moving at the speed of light.

If something looks like a cat, meows like a cat, has face of a cat, I will assume it walks like a cat, you have to prove why it doesn't.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Plus I 100% believe Rayleigh's precognition (call it future sight if you want) is much better than Katakuri's. If Katakuri can see 3 seconds, Rayleigh can probably see 10 or 15 seconds. God of CoO if you will.


Dude Ray does not have FS, he never showed it so this is not even true .


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> And you forgot that Kizaru has COO also and he is top tier so he has great COO and the best COO is FS so Ray does not have GOD COO for start!
> 
> So Kizaru does not have COO then?
> What level if Kizaru has LS all the time even if you have 10% of LS and good COO as see in the battle of SN VS Kata you can 't really win, also how can Ray have relativistic speed if Kizaru needs a ligh based fruit and if it is Top tier scalling then the rest also have it just saying!
> ...


Kizaru has CoO too, you need CoO stronger than Kizaru to beat him. Kaido might beat Kizaru due to his durability but he will struggle massively. Rayleigh has future sight and better future sight than Kata imo

What kinda stupid question is that? Because those air shock waves are pushed by Kuma very hard and in one piece world can travel that fast. Same way Zoro's flying slashes can travel at MHS++++++++++ speeds.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Actually Kizaru is made up of light


NO he is made out of flesh and can turn in light so the burden is on you to prove that when he is not in ligh form he moves at light speed!

If he was made permanently of light he would look like he was made out of light and would not transform.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> Dude Ray does not have FS, he never showed it so this is not even true .


No he did. You need to know the meaning of future sight. Future sight is nothing more than stronger version of normal CoO, the ability to see something before it happens. Precognition. Even the very basic form of CoO is precognition. Rayleigh predicting that animals moves is no different than Luffy predicting the fodders moves in Kaido's prison. 

Considering Rayleigh is CoO god, his precognition is much stronger than Katakuri's imo.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh has future sight and better future sight than Kata imo


No he doesn't based on the manga that Oda drew ).



Shishio ishere said:


> Considering Rayleigh is CoO god, his precognition is much stronger than Katakuri's imo.


So no panel for Ray's FS ?


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> NO he is made out of flesh and can turn in light so the burden is on you to prove that when he is not in ligh form he moves at light speed!
> 
> If he was made permanently of light he would look like he was made out of light and would not transform.


Kizaru's body is made up photons hence when he has logia defense on lol. You can get past that by using Haki but when Usopp's attacks were passing through Kizaru, they were passing through photons not flesh. Attacks don't just pass through flesh like that.



QMS said:


> No he doesn't based on the manga that Oda drew ).


No he actually does. Every form of CoO has a property called precognition, where you can see an enemies attack before it even happened. Future sight is nothing more than a fancy term given by fans to what really is stronger version of normal CoO. You can keep repeating yourself, its not gonna make you any less wrong.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> you need CoO stronger than Kizaru to beat him.


So you know if Kizaru has better COO then Kaido or not?
If Ray can move at such speeds old as he is why wouldn't the strongest character be on at least that speed ?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> So you know if Kizaru has better COO then Kaido or not?
> If Ray can move at such speeds old as he is why wouldn't the strongest character be on at least that speed ?


Because Rayleigh is faster than stronger creature in the world lol.
Speed is not end all be all. Snakeman is probably faster than Kaido, Kaido can still beat him due to his durability. Old Ray will loose to Kaido due to his bad stamina but prime Ray definitely beats him.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Kizaru's body is made up photons hence when he has logia defense on lol.


So why does he need to transform into ligh to use Yamo mirror just saying ?



Shishio ishere said:


> Because Rayleigh is faster than stronger creature in the world lol.


Based on ?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> So why does he need to transform into ligh to use Yamo mirror just saying ?


He is not transforming, he is shape shifting. In normal Kizaru's body, photons take shape of of human. During yata mirror they take shape of laser beam.



QMS said:


> Based on ?


Uh his feats of fighting Kizrau in CqC. Kaido has nothing even remotely on that level


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Snakeman is probably faster than Kaido, Kaido can still beat him due to his durability.


The same Luffy that was speed blitzed so you say that a high tier is faster then a top top tier?

So why Snake man is not faster then Ray then?



Shishio ishere said:


> He is not transforming, he is shape shifting.


That is not shapeshifting, he is transforming in his element, shapeshifting means to change form he is changing element different things .

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> The same Luffy that was speed blitzed so you say that a high tier is faster then a top top tier?
> 
> So why Snake man is not faster then Ray then?


Uh no bound man was speed blitzed by Kaido, snake man is waaaaaaay faster than bound man. Katakuri was toying with bound man, Katakuri had to struggle even keeping up with snake man who was still accelerating. Don't over simplify something that is not so simple.

Uh because Rayleigh has better feats lol. Snake man has nothing on the same level as fighting Kizaru in CqC.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Uh because Rayleigh has better feats lol. Snake man has nothing on the same level as fighting Kizaru in CqC.


Baseless because you don't have feats vs an all-out kizaru or all out Kaido so ...

And I don't have a beef that Ray is fast but that Kaido is slower, which is baseless .


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> That is not shapeshifting, he is transforming in his element, shapeshifting means to change form he is changing element different things .


He is not though. He starts off in photons, he remains in photons. Just changes his shape. When he kicks at the speed of light, large part of his kick still looks like a kick


And its the same reason why when Rayleigh cut Kizaru, photons emit out of his body




QMS said:


> Baseless because you don't have feats vs an all-out kizaru or all out Kaido so ...


Kizaru doesn't need to go all out lol Light Sword is Kizrau's speed max in his base as he is fighting you in CqC. Beyond that he only has awakening.
When Kaido shows feats any where near Rayleigh's, I will consider putting him in Rayleigh tier speed wise. For now Rayliegh is better.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> ust changes his shape. When he kicks at the speed of light, large part of his kick still looks like a kick


Look at that kick it becomes yellow for a reason and remains the same shape as before so not shape shifting!


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 17, 2019)

whatever version of Rayleigh definitely loses to Prime Kaido...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> When Kaido shows feats any where near Rayleigh's


So Ray is faster then all the other characters that did not show feast vs Kizaru?

With this logic I can make an absurd one Old Ray is faster than Prime Ray because Prime Ray has no feats

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> whatever version of Rayleigh definitely loses to Prime Kaido...


What ever version of Kaido definitely looses to Prime Rayleigh. Kaido needs to prove he can beat Old Whitebeard before he can stand a chance against Prime Rayleigh who is same level as prime Whitebeard based on his hype alone "You think Marines can take on two legends at the same time"

Even Kizaru gave zero fucks about Kaido "Sakazuki, you want me to go stop those scrubs Kaido and Big Mom?"



QMS said:


> So Ray is faster then all the other character that did not show feast vs Kizaru?


Yes. Prime Rayleigh is second fastest character of all time is Old and Rusty Rayleigh can fight on par with CqC kizaru.

Until proven otherwise



QMS said:


> So Ray is faster then all the other characters that did not show feast vs Kizaru?
> 
> With this logic I can make an absurd one Old Ray is faster than Prime Ray because Prime Ray has no feats


No you can't because Old Ray is weaker version of Prime Ray.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Prime Rayleigh who is same level as prime Whitebeard based on his hype alone


And you can say that because Prime Ray fought WB when?



Shishio ishere said:


> No you can't because Old Ray is weaker version of Prime Ray.


No using same logic, Prime Ray has no feats so Old Ray has better speed )!

No, no you used a fallacy that if no one has feats vs Kizaru then they are slower so I used the same fallacy for Prime Ray!


Shishio ishere said:


> Until proven otherwise


So a fallacy .



Shishio ishere said:


> Kaido needs to prove he can beat Old Whitebeard before he can stand a chance against Prime Rayleigh who is same level as prime Whitebeard based on his hype alone "You think Marines can take on two legends at the same time"


Hype alone in current time line, Kaido has more hype then those two and this comming from a fan of WB and Ray, all of the OJ members in here know how I defended WB !

Current Kaido is stronger then anyone including old WB and Old WB was stronger then old Ray!

So WSC is more hype then old Ray, remain on feats those are better !


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> What ever version of Kaido definitely looses to Prime Rayleigh. Kaido needs to prove he can beat Old Whitebeard before he can stand a chance against Prime Rayleigh who is same level as prime Whitebeard based on his hype alone "You think Marines can take on two legends at the same time"
> 
> Even Kizaru gave zero fucks about Kaido "Sakazuki, you want me to go stop those scrubs Kaido and Big Mom?"


why Kaido needs to prove..he has WSC title which Rayleigh didn't have and he is said to be strongest....

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> No using same logic, Prime Ray has no feats so Old Ray has better speed )!
> 
> No, no you used a fallacy that if no one has feats vs Kizaru then they are slower so I used the same fallacy for Prime Ray!


Well sometimes absence of evidence is evidence of absence when it comes to fictional world where a lot of prior information is already given. We have seen top tiers like Big Mom in action and she is clearly no where near snake man, let alone CqC kizaru level. Kaido's best feat is overpowering G4 with his speed and he has no portrayal suggesting he is faster than snake man let alone CqC kizaru.

There are only a few people who I can see on Rayleigh level based on portrayal, feats and hype and those are Shanks, Mihawk and maybe Kuma.



QMS said:


> Hype alone in current time line, Kaido has more hype then those two and this comming from a fan of WB and Ray, all of the OJ members in here know how I defended WB !
> 
> Current Kaido is stronger then anyone including old WB and Old WB was stronger then old Ray!
> 
> So WSC is more hype then old Ray, remain on feats those are better !


Old Ray and Old WB loose to Kaido.
Prime Ray and Prime WB beat Kaido.

Btw I was trolling with you about no one being able to pull of feat that Rayleigh pulled of against Kizaru. Though I do think Rayleigh is faster than Kaido, he just seems more agile and speed based fighter than Kaido whose main gig is brute force and durability. If Kaido truly shows feats of overpowering snake man with his speed, then I will be surprised and boost Kaido's speed up in my tier list accordingly.



Hades92 said:


> why Kaido needs to prove..he has WSC title which Rayleigh didn't have and he is said to be strongest....


Rayleigh is out of his prime in the era when Kaido is WSC. Kaido was a nobody in Prime Rayleigh's era so his WSC title doesn't apply to prime Rayleigh.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Well sometimes absence of evidence is evidence of absence when it comes to fictional world where a lot of prior information is already given.


No that is a fallacy, called absence of evidence is evidence 

If that is true then I can  say that Ussop is stronger then Dragon because Dragon has not feats ).


Shishio ishere said:


> let alone CqC kizaru level.


CqC means that he can't move at LS so starting with a bad start 


Shishio ishere said:


> feats and hype and those are Shanks, Mihawk and maybe Kuma.


), all of these never will be the fastest character in the series or the most powerful, what hype did you ever get that makes them top top tier?



Shishio ishere said:


> Btw I was trolling with you about no one being able to pull of feat that Rayleigh pulled of against Kizaru.


LOL don't state the obvious ).


Shishio ishere said:


> Prime Ray and Prime WB beat Kaido.


Baseless for Prime Ray because Prime WB is not the same level to Prime WB .


Shishio ishere said:


> Though I do think Rayleigh is faster than Kaido,


Mate did you see kaido's feat he speed blitzed a speed based fighter like G4 Luffy ).
Ray's feats are better but to say that Kaido is slower is baseless .


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh is out of his prime in the era when Kaido is WSC. Kaido was a nobody in Prime Rayleigh's era so his WSC title doesn't apply to prime Rayleigh.


doesn't matter...because prime Rayleigh doesn't have any hype or feats or title that is above Kaido to begin with...and WB was hailed as WSM eventhough he was out of prime...so your logic won't apply...



Shishio ishere said:


> There are only a few people who I can see on Rayleigh level based on portrayal, feats and hype and those are Shanks, Mihawk and maybe Kuma.


lol....so now WSS which is less than WSC are at Rayleigh level and WSC is below Rayleigh level...nothing can be more funny than this...

lets not talk about WSS feats until now especially MF feats....the less, the better...


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

@Shishio ishere  I had my fun to the next time !



Hades92 said:


> lol....so now WSS which is less than WSC are at Rayleigh level and WSC is below Rayleigh level...nothing can be more funny than this...
> 
> lets not talk about WSS feats until now especially MF feats....the less, the better...



No first WSC is said to be the strongest now , Shanks is a Yonko and below the WSC and WSS is the same level as Shanks , stronger or whatever so both of them are below WSC as portrait !

Prime Ray was not the same level as Prime WB that was Roger his captain the stronger person in the crew, Ray never was WSM, that was WB !

For swordsmans, Ryuma has the best hype Ryuma > WSS  .

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> doesn't matter...because prime Rayleigh doesn't have any hype or feats or title that is above Kaido to begin with...and WB was hailed as WSM eventhough he was out of prime...so your logic won't apply...


Prime Ray does have hype above Kaido.
He is partner of Gol D Roger, someone whose hype shits on all Yonkou hype. Jinbei called Big Mom a "mere Yonko" compared to Pirate King, Garp compared Rayleigh's legend to Whitebeard who is comparable to Gol D Roger.

Roger himself called Rayleigh his partner. Even in his old age Marines were too cautious to even fuck with Rayleigh while Kizaru alone was ready to jump head first into lion's den stopping Kaido and Big Mom.

Kaido's hype is wonky as fuck anyways considering his ass lost 7 times and has been capture multiple times and is too scared to even jump in ocean despite wanting to die. As far as record is considered Rayleigh has never been captured. Plus Rayleigh's reputation shits on Kaido's his name is stated in every history book according to Nami while Nami had no idea who Yonkou even were. He is portrayed as literal master of Haki in every sense of the word where Oda even comparing Old Rayleigh's CoC to Shanks'. Based on Rayleigh's past teaching Luffy is trying to come up with a way to defeat Kaido.

Don't even debate hype with Rayleigh, Rayleigh has one of the greatest hypes of all time.



QMS said:


> No first WSC is said to be the strongest now , Shanks is a Yonko and below the WSC and WSS is the same level as Shanks , stronger or whatever so both of them are below WSC as portrait !


Mihawk is factually stronger than Prime Shanks who is stronger than cripple Shanks who is rival to Kaido though.



QMS said:


> @Shishio ishere  I had my fun to the next time !


bye lol


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Mihawk is factually stronger than Prime Shanks who is stronger than cripple Shanks who is rival to Kaido though.


Rivals does not mean equal, also Kaido and Shanks has no rivality that is WSS and Shanks!


Mihawk and two hands Shanks dueled and no one won, Cripple Shanks might be weaker but irrelevant;

Prime Shanks never was the strongest Yonko with WSM and WSC in the ranks!

The fact that WSS is stronger then Shanks means exactly that!

It has not bearing to BM,BB,WB or Kaido !
That is another falacy :

WSS and two hand Shanks dueled and no one won , Shanks was a Yonko then WB and Kaido are stronger!
WSS is stronger now but that does not translate to WB, Kaido Or BB!

The Admiral are not equal and the Yonko are the same!



CIAO!


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Mihawk is factually stronger than Prime Shanks who is stronger than cripple Shanks who is rival to Kaido though.


this is based on what...Posthawk didn't beat any version of Shanks...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> this is based on what...Posthawk didn't beat any version of Shanks...


The fuck is post Hawk? Mihawk showed Vista mercy because he was too weak to even kill. Shanks is factually weaker than Mihawk by virtue of Mihawk being a CoA god with permanent black blade and strongest swordsman in the world while Shanks being one armed has been swordsman who couldn't even make a permanent black blade.

Also Mihawk is looking for someone stronger than Prime Shanks (Zoro), cripple Shanks is worthless.

Nice try. Try again.



QMS said:


> Rivals does not mean equal, also Kaido and Shanks has no rivality that is WSS and Shanks!
> 
> 
> Mihawk and two hands Shanks dueled and no one won, Cripple Shanks might be weaker but irrelevant;
> ...


Prime WB >= Prime Ray > Kaido > BB/Mihawk > Prime Shanks > Cripple Shanks > Big Mom I'd say.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Mihawk showed Vista mercy because he was too weak to even kill


the VC says that Vista is as good as Mihawk at swordsmanship!


Shishio ishere said:


> virtue of Mihawk being a CoA god with permanent black blade and strongest swordsman


That is Ryuma, don't give WSS feats that he might not have.


Shishio ishere said:


> Also Mihawk is looking for someone stronger than Prime Shanks (Zoro), cripple Shanks is worthless.


Irelevent Prime Shanks the equal of Miahawk never was the strongest when WB and Kaido were in the verse so someone stronger means someone stronger then that PL nothing more!


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Mihawk showed Vista mercy because he was too weak to even kill.


head canon...he didn't show any mercy for fodders like Mr.0 and Luffy dodged unrestraied Blackblade attacks (Posthawk words)....but he was stopped by Vista/Crocodile...his slash was stopped by Jozu



Shishio ishere said:


> Shanks is factually weaker than Mihawk by virtue of Mihawk being a CoA god with permanent black blade


it was not confirmed that Mihawk made black blade...and making black blade is not a testament for god level CoA, so again it is a head canon...



Shishio ishere said:


> Also Mihawk is looking for someone stronger than Prime Shanks (Zoro), cripple Shanks is worthless.


Sabo is dead in VC....and even if we take VC as canon, Mihawk looking for "swordsman" stronger than Shanks...not the strongest person ...



Shishio ishere said:


> Prime WB >= Prime Ray > Kaido > BB/Mihawk > Prime Shanks > Cripple Shanks > Big Mom I'd say.


Prime WB rivals Roger not Rayleigh...get your facts right...prime Ray or not WSC is greater than prime Ray...you say Kaido is mere Yonko...compared to PK, he is mere Yonko.....he is compared to Roger, the PK...but that doesn't say anything about Rayleigh...

nice try...at this rate, people will stop taking you serious


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Prime WB >= Prime Ray > Kaido > BB/Mihawk >


Baseless and featless or hypeless!

Prime WB and Roger are on their level than the rest!

Prime Ray never has the hype or portrait to be put on Prime WB level, him being legend means that he is a legend not equal or close don't == the terms because Chinjao was also a legend but only WB was the equal of Roger .

Feat wise Old WB is stronger than old Ray , sick old WB migh be weaker!

EOS BB> Prime WB !
Kaido is stronger then all the character now, Prime Ray needs to prove that he can be stronger then Kaido first!



Shishio ishere said:


> Mihawk > Prime Shanks > Cripple Shanks >


Also, this is baseless!

Two hands Shanks was never defeated by Mihawk so you can't make that statement!
WSS Mihawk is stronger then current Shanks, I don't care, but you have nothing for vs Two hands Shanks!

I am out @Hades92  enjoy the rest!


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are misunderstanding Kizaru's devil fruit. He doesn't fight at the speed of light but travels at the speed of light. Think of him like the Minato of Naruto who can blitz around at insane speeds but once he pops up again everything is happening at normal speed. That is why Rayleigh clashed evenly with him not because he is a speed monster. Granted I'm not denying that Ray could potentially be faster than Kaido anyway.


Yes, yes he can. Recent DB literally states that all of his DF ability are LS. It literally says he can dish attacks and move at the speed of light and that only proficient Haki users can keep up with him.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Recent DB literally states that all of his DF ability are LS


So Ray moved FTL speed when wounding him?

And that is a old low top tier so the top top tiers are much faster .


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> So Ray moved FTL speed when wounding him?
> 
> And that is a old low top tier so the top top tiers are much faster .


Nope. Not necessarily. That wouldn't add up with the statement that says it's impossible to deal with him without good Haki.
Here's the calc:


----------



## Steven (Jun 17, 2019)

Whats next?Roger~Ray?


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> That wouldn't add up with the statement that says it's impossible to deal with him without good Haki.


You still need relativistic speed to combat LS  )!

And Ray does not have FS that is, for now, better than regular COO ).

So I can say that SN+mastered FS would tango with Kizaru, sorry no he gets stomped because he is a top high tier at best ).



Acnologia said:


> *Whats next?Roger~Ray?*


Come on, you never read this before?


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Whats next?Roger~Ray?


----------



## Steven (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> Come on, you never read this before?


Sadly i did on OJ


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Sadly i did on OJ


Read it again on NF :


Shishio ishere said:


> *Prime WB >= Prime Ray *> Kaido > BB/Mihawk > Prime Shanks > Cripple Shanks > Big Mom I'd say.


----------



## Steven (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> Read it again on NF :


Ouch

Wait what?BB>Shanks?

Not at this point


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Ouch
> 
> Wait what?BB>Shanks?
> 
> Not at this point


) the beauty of no logic !



Skinny Phallus said:


> Nope. Not necessarily. That wouldn't add up with the statement that says it's impossible to deal with him without good Haki.
> Here's the calc:


This again :


----------



## Sade (Jun 17, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> why Kaido needs to prove..he has WSC title which Rayleigh didn't have and he is said to be strongest....



Why weren't you saying the same for Mihawk title ?....


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Sade said:


> Why weren't you saying the same for Mihawk title ?....


I am, WSS,WSC and WSM are baseless until we see their feats but Ray has no feat that puts him on Prime WB, he does not have feats that puts him on Old WB  level.

And saying that Ray is the second fastest character is a fantasy  .


----------



## Steven (Jun 17, 2019)

Kaido>Ray


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Kaido>Ray


Of course .


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> This again :


This guy is a fucking dumbass for applying real world peak human capabilities to superhuman fictional characters. 
His video is irrelevant.


----------



## Sade (Jun 17, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Kaido>Ray



 But can light be blended ?


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> This guy is a fucking dumbass for applying real world peak human capabilities to superhuman fictional characters.


So you applying real world math and physics because OP has the same rules hmmm ?

I smell double standards, how do you know that our math applies also quantum physics is different than regular one ).



Sade said:


> But can light blend ?


Yes but in special mediums or using mirrors so your point?


----------



## Steven (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> Of course .


For what you give me a Tier specialist rating?You even agree with me


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> For what you give me a Tier specialist rating?You even agree with me


For giggles )!

Is this sarcastic or not?


----------



## Steven (Jun 17, 2019)

Sade said:


> But can light be blended ?


Without any other factors?Nope

With mirrors and such stuff,yes



QMS said:


> For giggles )!
> 
> Is this sarcastic or not?


Yes,its a sarcasmus rating.That why the rating looks like Ruffys "For sure..." face

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> So you applying real world math and physics because OP has the same rules hmmm ?
> 
> I smell double standards, how do you know that our math applies also quantum physics is different than regular one ).


There's a huge difference between applying such things in a certain manner and have certain standards, and limiting a character to peak human level, especially when said character has proved times and times again it's very much superhuman.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> There's a huge difference between applying such things in a certain manner and have certain standards, *and limiting a character to peak human level, especially when said character has proved times and times again it's very much superhuman.*


I am no denying it but I can select the claims that Seth made I can make Luffy MFTL currently, would that be ok, just asking?

The fact that Luffy dodged photons in based means what and this is Luffy in base after TS!

he now has FS, he will master it!

He has G2 and G4 and SN .

So tell me the reaction speed of SN+FS currently?

And remember this is a high top tier so scale that to top top tier!


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Even Kizaru gave zero fucks about Kaido "Sakazuki, you want me to go stop those scrubs Kaido and Big Mom?"


The scrub used sea stone cuffs on Marco

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> There's a huge difference between applying such things in a certain manner and have certain standards, and limiting a character to peak human level, especially when said character has proved times and times again it's very much superhuman.


Also, by the way, I am not agreeing with that guy!

But if you are scaling Ray at relativistic speed then do so for the rest of top tiers!

And my question is the following so  He always is photons so BB is always infinite Gravity meaning he can bend time and space ??

So for BB Kizaru is irrelevant because he can bend the lasers and he can maybe stop time as in the event horizon  so he one-shots anyone .


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Sade said:


> Why weren't you saying the same for Mihawk title ?....


you are missing the context of the statement...I consider Mihawk as a top tier solely because of WSS title....I will re asses further in future if he shows beyond my current assessment



QMS said:


> Also, this is baseless!
> 
> Two hands Shanks was never defeated by Mihawk so you can't make that statement!
> WSS Mihawk is stronger then current Shanks, I don't care, but you have nothing for vs Two hands Shanks!
> ...


I also stop caring...at this point...it is looking more like troll than wank....


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> I also stop caring...at this point...it is looking more like troll than wank....


It was that from the start .


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

QMS said:


> I am no denying it but I can select the claims that Seth made I can make Luffy MFTL currently, would that be ok, just asking?
> 
> The fact that Luffy dodged photons in based means what and this is Luffy in base after TS!
> 
> ...


Seth's a fucking idiot.

Pacifista beams were said to be recreations of Kizaru's attack power. Doesn't mean they're composed of the same energy source. In addition to recent DB statements and the fact that Pacifista beams could be aim-dodged because they're so telegraphed it's pathetic in comparison, there's no reason to think Pacifista beams travel at the speed of light.

Current Luffy might be around that relativsitic speed due to FS and Snakeman. Still too weak in terms of DC and durability to compete with the top-tiers.


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Seth's a fucking idiot.
> 
> Pacifista beams were said to be recreations of Kizaru's attack power. Doesn't mean they're composed of the same. In addition to recent DB statements and the fact that Pacifista beams could be aim-dodged because they're so telegraphed it's insane, there's no reason to think Pacifista beams travel at the speed of light.
> 
> Current Luffy might be around that relativsitic speed due to FS and Snakeman. Still too weak in terms of DC and durability to compete with the top-tiers.


his durability atleast can be considered low top tier if he increased his base stats in Udon

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Current Luffy might be around that relativsitic speed due to FS and Snakeman. Still too weak in terms of DC and durability to compete with the top-tiers.


We agree on this, I say let's wait for all out Kizaru for speed feats, I see him as the fastest character but he lacks the natural reflexes of those that are stronger then him, also his COO will never be the best for a reason!



Skinny Phallus said:


> Seth's a fucking idiot.


Not really, but we should not use too much math in a fictional word!



Skinny Phallus said:


> there's no reason to think Pacifista beams travel at the speed of light.


They are not activated at light speed, but they should be LS, there is no other option to explain what they are!



Skinny Phallus said:


> Current Luffy might be around that relativsitic speed due to FS and Snakeman. Still too weak in terms of DC and durability to compete with the top-tiers.


This is why he is a  high tier but if a high tier has relativistic speed what speed the currently top top tier has that is the question?

@mods, sorry, for that, I forgot to edits my posts .

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Yes, yes he can. Recent DB literally states that all of his DF ability are LS. It literally says he can dish attacks and move at the speed of light and that only proficient Haki users can keep up with him.



Of course all of his devil fruit is lightspeed what else would it be? I also didn't deny any of what you said. What I am saying is that he can not fight like that in rapid succession. He needed to charge his leg and accelerate it with his light fruit and he needed to create paths to bridge greater gaps. His sword fighting wasn't charged nor does Kizaru have the brain capacity to keep up with his own high-speed without cooldown.

Answer me this: you think if Kizaru transforms to light and starts teleporting that Rayleigh can catch up to him _without _the light fruit and any special techniques? If your answer is "yes" then what is the point of the light fruit, the paw paw teleportation and other people like Luffy learning soru? What is the point of Cavendish' Hakuba transformation? Why do Akainu and Mihawk miss Buggy and Luffy yet someone like Rayleigh who is older and weaker becomes Kizaru tier speed? Why is Katakuri accelerating with his awakening Form even so he should be near lightspeed as well since apparently moving at that speed is no big deal?


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Of course all of his devil fruit is lightspeed what else would it be? I also didn't deny any of what you said. What I am saying is that he can not fight like that in rapid succession. He needed to charge his leg and accelerate it with his light fruit and he needed to create paths to bridge greater gaps. His sword fighting wasn't charged nor does Kizaru have the brain capacity to keep up with his own high-speed without cooldown.
> 
> Answer me this: you think if Kizaru transforms to light and starts teleporting that Rayleigh can catch up to him _without _the light fruit and any special techniques? If your answer is "yes" then what is the point of the light fruit, the paw paw teleportation and other people like Luffy learning soru? What is the point of Cavendish' Hakuba transformation? Why do Akainu and Mihawk miss Buggy and Luffy yet someone like Rayleigh who is older and weaker becomes Kizaru tier speed? Why is Katakuri accelerating with his awakening Form even so he should be near lightspeed as well since apparently moving at that speed is no big deal?



Kizaru was literally seen blitzing and shooting beams without any need of charging them, without the need of YnK nor without any "cooldown" bullshit. He was shown using YnK on Apoo and then covered an even greater distance WITHOUT it(still via lightspeed movement technique)to kick Drake, who couldn't perceive what was going on. Kizaru beamed Hawkins several times before he even realized it. He also blitzed Luffy with LS kick during the Marineford.

The entire "hurr durr he needs to charge shit" is retarded. What's the point of that DF if its attacks are 100% telegraphed and take time to charge? That's absolutely dumb and factually incorrect.

The entire "charge" crap is because of his character, he's a lazy fuck who takes things slow. But in real time combat where he was at least semi-serious you could clearly see he never took shit slow - never popped the YNK even once but rather used his normal movement technique to chase down Luffy at the speed of light, against WB he just spammed Yasakana no Magatama right off the bat.

He most definitely has the brain capacity to use his abilities to their fullest. He's a fucking Admiral with CoO advanced enough to let him control LS movement. He's one of the deadliest weapons of the Marines for a reason, and you talk like they gave one of the deadliest Logias to a completely incompetent fighter. He obviously possess a high level of CoO which allows him to control his speed, that's literally written in the DB. The entire cooldown bullshit is headcanon crap that you people made up for the dumbest fucking reasons. Zero logic or evidence behind it.

As for the Akainu and Mihawk crap, it's PIS. That's a thing. Outliers. Rayleigh would still have to be at least relativistic+ to stop Kizaru mid Yata no Kagami, which he did.


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Kizaru was literally seen blitzing and shooting beams without any need of charging them, without the need of YnK nor without any "cooldown" bullshit. He was shown using YnK on Apoo and then covered an even greater distance WITHOUT it(still via lightspeed movement technique)to kick Drake, who couldn't perceive what was going on. Kizaru beamed Hawkins several times before he even realized it. He also blitzed Luffy with LS kick during the Marineford.
> 
> The entire "hurr durr he needs to charge shit" is retarded. What's the point of that DF if its attacks are 100% telegraphed and take time to charge? That's absolutely dumb and factually incorrect.
> 
> ...



Of course shooting lasers doesn't require charging because he isn't moving. Don't start reaching now. You can also not deny that there were multiple instances in which Kizaru is shown charging and creating paths, Kizaru isn't lightspeed thinker nor very smart. What you say is just silly.


----------



## Corax (Jun 17, 2019)

As DB suggests you need CoO to fight Kizaru. Ray used FS to predict his location and intercepted him. Kizaru's combat speed is way below light speed,as even G2 Luffy was able to fight him for some time,same for Marco who isn't LS character. Anyway this has nothing to do with this thread Ray's CoO and speed are more than enough to fight Kaido.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Of course shooting lasers doesn't require charging because he isn't moving. Don't start reaching now. You can also not deny that there were multiple instances in which Kizaru is shown charging and creating paths, Kizaru isn't lightspeed thinker nor very smart. What you say is just silly.



"He isn't moving so he doesn't have to charge". Huh??? He charges whenever he feels like it. That's evident.
You're the one reaching with this "cooldown" and Kizaru "being dumb" bullshit. It was never even implied that he has "cooldown" on his abilities, and calling on of the Marines top 3 deadliest fighters "dumb" as a way of downplaying him is reaching. He's an incredible fighter, that's why he was chosen as an Admiral and was given one of the deadliest DFs out there.

Kizaru isn't lightspeed thinker? What the fuck? This is one of the most retarded arguments I've ever read. Fact is, he's capable of traveling at the speed of light without the YnK, and he'd have to be capable of perceiving it somehow in order to control it, which he is capable of. He was shown

Never denied those instances, but they're irrelevant because he's shown that he doesn't have to do that. There are multiple instances where he's seen traveling at the speed of light without YnK. When he blitzed Luffy in the MF there were no signs of him using YnK nor having to charge his LS kick, when he blitzed Drake he wasn't using YnK but did travel at the speed of light and instantly kicked him at the speed of light without having to charge it(as both the SFX, art and Drake's inability to respond in any way indicated). He also was about to travel at the SOL without the YnK in an attempt to tag Luffy but was intercepted by Whitebeard.

You're cherry picking shit he's done while basically chilling while completely ignoring glaring evidence of him doing exactly what you said he's incapable of doing, and what I'm saying is silly? Holy shit, I don't even know what the fuck I'm arguing against at this point. You're making me recite descriptions of manga panels. Just re-read the manga.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

I also find it hilarious you're saying "what's the point of him having LS DF if they could keep up with him?" but at the same time claim his attacks has cooldown, that he's incapable of perceiving his own speed and that his attacks are telegraphed, making the entire speed advantage almost non-existence, especially against CoO users, taking away from the entire fucking point of his DF.

And also despite the fact that it was literally mentioned only proficient Haki users could perceive his attacks and movement in the DB.


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> "He isn't moving so he doesn't have to charge". Huh??? He charges whenever he feels like it. That's evident.
> You're the one reaching with this "cooldown" and Kizaru "being dumb" bullshit. It was never even implied that he has "cooldown" on his abilities, and calling on of the Marines top 3 deadliest fighters "dumb" as a way of downplaying him is reaching. He's an incredible fighter, that's why he was chosen as an Admiral and was given one of the deadliest DFs out there.
> 
> Kizaru isn't lightspeed thinker? What the fuck? This is one of the most retarded arguments I've ever read. Fact is, he's capable of traveling at the speed of light without the YnK, and he'd have to be capable of perceiving it somehow in order to control it, which he is capable of. He was shown
> ...



When I say cooldown I obviously mean that he needs to slow down to register  and perceive how his opponent responds, plan his next move and let his brainsend signals to his body to move his muscles accordingly etc. And stop acting like Kizaru is Einstein. We all know the guy has some mental handicap. Anyway burden of proof is still on you to provide panels in which Kizaru is doing lightspeed movements Combined with lightspeed reflexes and short reaction intervals. The Kizaru you talk about is pure Fan fiction.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I can't believe you still cling to this. Anyway getting tired of this debate. One day when you get a bit of distance from this whole topic you will come to your senses. I actually believed the same thing about Ray and Kiz but that was like 6 years ago.





I literally posted actual proof, yet you've done nothing but spew head-canon delusions. I don't have to come to my senses, you're just absolutely delusional.


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

All of physics works differently in One Piece. The speed of light isn't exempt from this. Kizaru's lasers travel at the speed of light, seeing as he is light, but that speed is most likely not anywhere close to 3x10^8 m/s. It's really fast, but that's about it.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jun 17, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Prime WB >= Prime Ray > Kaido > BB/Mihawk > Prime Shanks > Cripple Shanks > Big Mom


 Prime WB > Kaido > BB > Mihawk >= Prime Shanks > Prime Ray = Shanks > Big Mom


----------



## cry77 (Jun 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> All of physics works differently in One Piece. The speed of light isn't exempt from this. Kizaru's lasers travel at the speed of light, seeing as he is light, but that speed is most likely not anywhere close to 3x10^8 m/s. It's really fast, but that's about it.


This, although I can see Kizaru creating non-volatile lights that move at true light speed - such as flashlights. 

But the second he adds mass to the light, it is likely (and obvious) that the light slows down.

A literal light speed kick - with the mass of a foot behind it - would destroy the entire SA.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> All of physics works differently in One Piece. The speed of light isn't exempt from this. Kizaru's lasers travel at the speed of light, seeing as he is light, but that speed is most likely not anywhere close to 3x10^8 m/s. It's really fast, but that's about it.


Not this fucking argument again. Is this section really devoid of any form of common sense?
This is yet another baseless argument. "Speed of light" is used to describe Kizaru's level of speed. Until there's a statement giving us an exact number that's different or says that it's not the same speed of light as we know, it is the speed of light as we know it, it is the speed of light as we know it. There's no evidence to prove otherwise. There's literally no logic behind it. The author's intent is obvious.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Not this fucking argument again. Is this section really devoid of any form of common sense?
> This is yet another baseless argument. "Speed of light" is used to describe Kizaru's level of speed. Until there's a statement giving us an exact number that's different or says that it's not the same speed of light as we know, it is the speed of light as we know it, it is the speed of light as we know it. There's no evidence to prove otherwise. There's literally no logic behind it. The author's intent is obvious.


The author's intent isn't "Kizaru moves at 3x10^8 m/s, which due to the general theory of relativity makes it so that he doesn't age and also makes the impacts of his kicks have literally infinite energy, thus allowing him to destroy the entire universe". The intent is "Kizaru moves really fast and therefore kicks really hard". Literally no law of physics from our universe can be applied to the OP universe, so why would the speed of light remain the same?


----------



## TheWiggian (Jun 17, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Prime WB > Kaido > BB > Mihawk >= Prime Shanks > Prime Ray = Shanks > Big Mom



Wtf is a Prime Shanks?


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> Wtf is a Prime Shanks?


A Shanks with 2 arms would be my guess.


cry77 said:


> This, although I can see Kizaru creating non-volatile lights that move at true light speed - such as flashlights.
> 
> But the second he adds mass to the light, it is likely (and obvious) that the light slows down.
> 
> A literal light speed kick - with the mass of a foot behind it - would destroy the entire SA.


It's possible that it works that way, but I'm leaning towards light just not working the same way as in our universe, both regarding it's speed and regarding relativity. It would be weird if there were different speeds for different light imo. Makes more sense that OP light simply is really fast, but not as fast as in reality.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> The author's intent isn't "Kizaru moves at 3x10^8 m/s, which due to the general theory of relativity makes it so that he doesn't age and also makes the impacts of his kicks have literally infinite energy, thus allowing him to destroy the entire universe". The intent is "Kizaru moves really fast and therefore kicks really hard". Literally no law of physics from our universe can be applied to the OP universe, so why would the speed of light remain the same?


Because the author blatanty said so. Nothing implies that the speed of light in OP is any different than our planets. It just doesnt affect their planet the same(it goes both ways, only that I have evidence to suport this claik). Like pretty the case in most other battle shonens and fiction in general.

Your argument pretty much assumes that because of it that means he doesnt really mean SOL, desppite his devilfruit being light and despite the fact that the author never stated otherwise nor said anything to imply that he means "just really fast"(otherwise why specify the speed of light?). Your argument is purely baseless headcanon.


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Because the author blatanty said so. Nothing implies that the speed of light in OP is any different than our planets. It just doesnt affect their planet the same(it goes both ways, only that I have evidence to suport this claik). Like pretty the case in most other battle shonens and fiction in general.
> 
> Your argument pretty much assumes that because of it that means he doesnt really mean SOL, desppite his devilfruit being light and despite the fact that the author never stated otherwise nor said anything to imply that he means "just really fast"(otherwise why specify the speed of light?). Your argument is purely baseless *headcanon*.


Hawkins survived the kick. Had the kick been at our light speed, his head would have been accelerated to about half the speed of light instantly, which would have made it leave the atmosphere in about 0.0006 seconds. Also, there would have been an explosion at the point of impact that destroyed the universe. That didn't happen. The kick just made him fly into a wall. There is the conclusive evidence that Kizaru's kicks don't move at 3x10^8 m/s. I have never said that Kizaru doesn't move at the speed of light. I have actually said explicitly that Kizaru moves at the speed of light. You should really read more carefully. All I have said is that the speed of light in the OP universe is different from ours, just like all of their laws of physics are different from ours. For example, people can lift things many times their weight without it affecting their point of balance and people can summon lava out of thin air with magic. Our physics =/= OP physics. 

Also, headcanon is a word used by people who are running out of arguments and try to win by resorting to ridiculing their opponents opinions. I would advise you not to use it unless you want to make yourself seem desperate.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jun 17, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> Wtf is a Prime Shanks?


 the other guy was using it as 2 hand shanks


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Hawkins survived the kick. Had the kick been at our light speed, his head would have been accelerated to about half the speed of light instantly, which would have made it leave the atmosphere in about 0.0006 seconds. Also, there would have been an explosion at the point of impact that destroyed the universe. That didn't happen. The kick just made him fly into a wall. There is the conclusive evidence that Kizaru's kicks don't move at 3x10^8 m/s. I have never said that Kizaru doesn't move at the speed of light. I have actually said explicitly that Kizaru moves at the speed of light. You should really read more carefully. All I have said is that the speed of light in the OP universe is different from ours, just like all of their laws of physics are different from ours. For example, people can lift things many times their weight without it affecting their point of balance and people can summon lava out of thin air with magic. Our physics =/= OP physics.
> 
> Also, headcanon is a word used by people who are running out of arguments and try to win by resorting to ridiculing their opponents opinions. I would advise you not to use it unless you want to make yourself seem desperate.


It's actually mind-boggling you can't see what's severly wrong with your argument.

>Claims OP's world has different laws of physics than ours and cannot be applied with real world physics
>Literally applies real world physics to the OP world in his arguments to make his point



This goes both ways, only that the other way(my argument)makes much more sense and isn't contradictory.

Instead of treating it as if the SOL in OP is different, thus, no similar effects to real world physics take place, it makes much more sense(considering the evidence we possess and your argument of OP's world having different laws)to treat it as if the effects of LS movement in the OP world are miniscule in comparison. Because again - nowhere is it implied that the LS referred to in OP itself and the Databook are any different than our own, real world LS. So yes, it makes much more sense(and isn't a double-standard)to assume that LS in OP is still the same as our own(until[if at all]mentioned otherwise), only that it has far weaker effects rather than the other way around.

Also, OP characters are superhuman, just like you said. No reason they wouldn't be able to withstand just another superhuman attack.

So yes, your entire argument is headcanon. It wasn't an attack(trust me if I attacked you you'd know it), it's simply the truth. It's blatantly hypocritical headcanon.


----------



## KiriNigiri (Jun 17, 2019)

Luffy is currently training to manage to hurt Kaido. The question remains, if Rayleigh can cut Kaido. If he could in his prime, I see no reason why he can't now. We know the usage of CoC lessens with age, but nothing that indicates CoA worsens. 

Anyway, I'll give it to Kaido due to benefit of the doubt, but I think it's just a hairs under Extreme diff.


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> It's actually mind-boggling you can't see what's severly wrong with your argument.
> 
> >Claims OP's world has different laws of physics than ours and cannot be applied with real world physics
> >Literally applies real world physics to the OP world in his arguments to make his point
> ...


As you said, and as was my point, real world physics can't be applied to One Piece. Why would you then insist on applying real world physics to One Piece? Why would you believe that the speed of light is the same in One Piece as in our world when nothing at all indicates it and when no other law of physics is the same? I don't understand what you are getting your data from.

It's especially puzzling considering we've seen characters react to Kizaru's laser, like for example Marco did when he attacked Whitebeard:

*Spoiler*: __ 








You can of course keep calling it headcanon, but the rest of us will call it truth.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> As you said, and as was my point, real world physics can't be applied to One Piece. Why would you then insist on applying real world physics to One Piece? Why would you believe that the speed of light is the same in One Piece as in our world when nothing at all indicates it and when no other law of physics is the same? I don't understand what you are getting your data from.
> 
> It's especially puzzling considering we've seen characters react to Kizaru's laser, like for example Marco did when he attacked Whitebeard:
> 
> ...


"The rest of us" as in strictly some people in this section.

I've already explained it and debunked your argument. You claim real world physics cannot be applied, yet you're doing the exact same thing by claiming that it cannot be actual LS because according to our laws of physics the effects are completely different and much more devistating , which is a contradiction.

Again - the words "speed of light" were used to quantify Kizaru's speed, and once fucking again - nothing, absolutely jack shit indicates that in this specific case OP's speed of light is any different than ours, there's no reason to believe that when using the words speed of light to describe it it's anything other than the speed of light as we know it, otherwise it would be specified. You claiming it's just Oda's way of saying "it's really fast" without giving us the actual level of speed he moves and attacks at, is again - pure headcanon that has zero basis to it, because again - it's not stated nor even remotely implied. The intent is obvious, you just choose to completely ignore it and go with a very delusional interpretation.

SOL in OP is the same, but its effects are different and are toned down(for the sake of the story, of course), this is the actual way to go about it because unlike your way it's not contradictory, it just doesn't sit well with you for whatever reason.

And yes, there were people who reacted to Kizaru. Because as stated in the DB - proficient Haki users can keep up with him due to CoO and sufficient speed.

I'm merely using common sense, avoid contradicting myself and use actual, canon sources to back my argument. Exactly the opposite of what you're doing.


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> "The rest of us" as in strictly some people in this section.
> 
> I've already explained it and debunked your argument. You claim real world physics cannot be applied, yet you're doing the exact same thing by claiming that it cannot be actual LS because according to our laws of physics the effects are completely different and much more devistating , which is a contradiction.
> 
> ...


CoO doesn't increase your speed. We see that Marco had time from the moment that Kizaru had already fired his lasers until they hit WB to fly over and get in the way. Do you believe that Marco can move at speeds approaching 3x10^8 m/s as well? He would need to be able to in your scenario. In that case, how large do you think the planet is? How many second does it take for Marco to fly around it? Or does the "effect" of the speed include the distance travelled per unit of time as well?


----------



## K A I D O (Jun 17, 2019)

kaido high diffs


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> CoO doesn't increase your speed. We see that Marco had time from the moment that Kizaru had already fired his lasers until they hit WB to fly over and get in the way. Do you believe that Marco can move at speeds approaching 3x10^8 m/s as well? He would need to be able to in your scenario. In that case, how large do you think the planet is? How many second does it take for Marco to fly around it? Or does the "effect" of the speed include the distance travelled per unit of time as well?


What? Never said it did, but it does enhance your reaction time because it gives you an idea, and sometimes a full on prediction for upcoming attacks, movement etc.

Marco barely got in the way, he was not that far away(as seen in previous pages)but the attack already crossed quite the distance towards WB by the time Marco blocked it. That could have yielded results significantly lower than LS, but you can't even calculate it due to negative distance.

But yes, I believe that Marco is very fast, and according to a recent calculation he should be scaled to relativistic+ speed(around mach 208k). How big is OP's planet? Dunno. You could only speculate and attempt calculating it. Can Marco actually fly around it? Dunno. But obviously he's not gonna either way because plot and probably has no reason to. It could also be merely for short bursts. There isn't really a conclusive answer, but we do know he's capable of it during combat as seen on panel.

Again - it's fiction. You've got superhuman characters that you admitted(and obviously evidently) are capable of superhuman things, but suddenly aren't capable of certain superhuman things, because real world physics, which you said shouldn't apply to them, suddenly do? Your entire argument is contradictory. You either concede or come up with a decent argument. At this point you're reaching in a desperate attempt to make some dumb point.


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> What? Never said it did, but it does enhance your reaction time because it gives you an idea, and sometimes a full on prediction for upcoming attacks, movement etc.
> 
> Marco barely got in the way, he was not that far away(as seen in previous pages)but the attack already crossed quite the distance towards WB by the time Marco blocked it. That could have yielded results significantly lower than LS, but you can't even calculate it due to negative distance.
> 
> ...


My argument is that it makes no sense to assume that characters can move at speeds close to 3x10^8 m/s when nothing at all has ever indicated it. People travel around on ships that move at speeds similar to ships in our world, and they are outrun when the Thousand Sunny moves at most a few hundred m/s. That wouldn't happen if characters were able of light speed travel. Admirals wouldn't be travelling around on ships if they would be hundreds of thousands of times faster on their own. Akainu wouldn't have to talk to Fujitora over the radio if he could just zip over to DR himself and handle the situation. The Revolutionaries could have wrecked the CDs a thousand times over in one second from their home base. We have never seen characters move that fast, so assuming that they can make no sense. The distances in One Piece matter, and it takes time for characters to travel around. That wouldn't be the case if people moved at even 3x10^6 m/s. Those superhuman characters are capable of superhuman things, but not superhuman things that we have evidence that they are unable to do. Marco can't lift planets, Whitebeard can't blow up the solar system and Kizaru's lasers can't move at 3x10^8 m/s.


----------



## Muah (Jun 17, 2019)

We dont know of Kaidou is as strong as prime garp. certainly though if current Kaidou went back in time with his current crew he would be an opponent Roger not Rayleigh.

though rayleigh has thw hype behind him but as far as we know he has no experience taking on Yonkou.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Significantly lower as in twenty times slower tops, which would mean mach 54 000 000. For mach 208, the lasers must have moved a distance 4200 times the distance Marco moved, which obviously isn't the case.
> 
> My argument is that it makes no sense to assume that characters can move at speeds close to 3x10^8 m/s when nothing at all has ever indicated it. People travel around on ships that move at speeds similar to ships in our world, and they are outrun when the Thousand Sunny moves at most a few hundred m/s. That wouldn't happen if characters were able of light speed travel. Admirals wouldn't be travelling around on ships if they would be hundreds of thousands of times faster on their own. Akainu wouldn't have to talk to Fujitora over the radio if he could just zip over to DR himself and handle the situation. The Revolutionaries could have wrecked the CDs a thousand times over in one second from their home base. We have never seen characters move that fast, so assuming that they can make no sense. The distances in One Piece matter, and it takes time for characters to travel around. That wouldn't be the case if people moved at even 3x10^6 m/s. Those superhuman characters are capable of superhuman things, but not superhuman things that we have evidence that they are unable to do. Marco can't lift planets, Whitebeard can't blow up the solar system and Kizaru's lasers can't move at 3x10^8 m/s.



I was referring to a calculation involving Rayleigh and Kizaru's YnK:


Being capable of covering short distances, react and trade blows at a certain speed =/= being capable of consistently traveling at the same speed over long distances.

They've shown feats for short distances, attacks and reactions. This is what you go by.

Kizaru's attacks are SOL, as stated. Your only argument against it contradicts itself in the process and I've already debunked it multiple times. And we don't have evidence of them being incapable of doing those things, we just don't have evidence proving it yet(and never will have, because yes, they're probably incapable of these things, bar Kizaru who's very capable of LS attacks and movement). You're confusing lack of evidence with evidence.

Just stop reaching and ignoring actual evidence. This is getting ludicrous. At this point it looks like you just refuse to take the L and move on from this debate. 

I've read enough of this nonsense of yours and this section for today. You feel like staying stubborn and ignorant? Then by all means, stay that way. Cya.


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> I was referring to a calculation involving Rayleigh and Kizaru's YnK:
> 
> 
> Being capable of covering short distances, react and trade blows at a certain speed =/= being capable of consistently traveling at the same speed over long distances.
> ...


Being capable of covering short distances, react and trade blows at a certain speed for several seconds = being capable of consistently travelling at speeds way slower than that for several seconds though. If Marco can move at mach 200 000-1 000 000 in fights, he would be able to move at at least mach 10 000 outside of fights, especially since he would only need to do so for a few seconds to reach whatever place he wanted to reach. 

And no, they haven't shown the feats for any distances, unless you already make the assumption that they have. 

That calc is even faulty if you make the assumption that Kizaru moves at the speed of light. Kizaru doesn't travel to Rayleigh. We can clearly see that the beam that Kizaru sends out isn't going towards Rayleigh. The assumption that Kizaru moved 1,95 metres is thus wrong. Rayelgh is the one who needed to move towards the beam. All the movement we see Kizaru do is dodge the slash, and that certainly isn't 1,95 metres. Using those panels and the assumption that Kizaru moves at 3x10^8 m/s would result in Rayleigh moving at about that speed. 

Kizaru's attacks are SOL, with that I agree. I have no argument against it. I have several arguments against them moving at 3x10^8 m/s though, some of which I have already given you. 

You still haven't shown any evidence that Kizaru's attacks move at 3x10^8 m/s. None at all.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 17, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Being capable of covering short distances, react and trade blows at a certain speed for several seconds = being capable of consistently travelling at speeds way slower than that for several seconds though. If Marco can move at mach 200 000-1 000 000 in fights, he would be able to move at at least mach 10 000 outside of fights, especially since he would only need to do so for a few seconds to reach whatever place he wanted to reach.
> 
> And no, they haven't shown the feats for any distances, unless you already make the assumption that they have.
> 
> ...



Nope. Unless he's shown the ability to do so, then no.

I'm repeating myself one last time and perhaps this time it'll go through your thick skull and you'll stop spewing nonsense that I've already debunked:

Your arguments were debunked already, you're a fucking hypocrite on the most embarrassing level. You apply real world physics for that specific purpose and then proceed to claim that real world physics don't apply to it. I've repeated it and you ignored it by shifting your arguments on the fly and reaching. It's actually quite pathetic. At least man up and admit your initial argument was a hypocritical pile of dogshit. Of course, you're probably going to ignore it because it's comfortable for you.

Yes, I have evidence for it, and it's Oda's statement, which you intentionally interpret in the dumbest, most nonsensical way to suit your agenda. A way which I've already debunked and literally doesn't make any sense unless you're on board with retarded double-standards and overall hypocrisy.

"Kizaru's attacks are SOL, but they don't move at the SOL"
Holy shit, easily one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Have you ever read OP???

Kizaru started traveling through the mirror at the speed of light, by the time he started traveling Rayleigh had already leapt at him and came in contact with the mirror, and before he went past Rayleigh, Rayleigh was fast enough to cut through it before Kizaru covered that distance through the mirror. Yes, it does make sense. He also used Kizaru's OFFICIAL, CANONICAL height to determine it all.

Smh. This is tiresome. I'm done here. I've debunked your bullshit for everyone to see multiple times. Now, only thing left is to hope that some people here are intelligent enough to understand why your arguments are actually moronic.

@Flame Don't ever link me this special-ed kids bullshit on this section ever again. This is actually frustrating to know I share a site with OJ's VS level of dumbassery.


----------



## Dunno (Jun 17, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Nope. Unless he's shown the ability to do so, then no.
> 
> I'm repeating myself one last time and perhaps this time it'll go through your thick skull and you'll stop spewing nonsense that I've already debunked:
> 
> ...


I don't think you understand what my argument is. It's obvious that Kizaru moves at the speed of light. He IS light. What other speed would he move at? Fujitora can control gravity. This does not mean that gravity works the same way it does in our universe, it just means that he can control the gravity in One Piece, however that works. What is also obvious is that the physics in OP works in different ways than they do in our universe. I pointed out that light in OP doesn't work the same way it does in out universe. You believe that you have disproved this fact by pointing out that applying physics to One Piece doesn't work, when that was the point all along.

None of my arguments have been debunked and you have provided no evidence whatsoever for Kizaru being able to move at 3x10^8 m/s. You haven't even provided evidence that Kizaru moves at the speed of light, although I agree with that so evidence is in that case not necessary.

"Kizaru's attacks are SOL, but they don't move at the SOL" is not something I have ever stated. I assume that you purposefully try to misrepresent my opinion, which is quite in line with your strategy so far of not actually addressing arguments with evidence but ridicule them instead. Although I guess that is the only choice you have if you have no evidence for your arguments. I have been crystal clear about my opinion that Kizaru does move at the speed of light.

Even if we assume that Rayleigh started moving a couple of panels before Kizaru, the calc doesn't hold up. When Rayleigh came into contact with the mirror, Kizaru had not moved 1,95 metres. The calc assumes that Kizaru has travelled the distance from Kizaru to Rayleigh in the first picture, which clearly isn't true. Kizaru aborted the movement before he reached Rayleigh. He had barely even begun to move, and he certainly hadn't moved 1,95 metres. He used the correct height to measure distances, but then applied them faultily, which is why the calc is wrong. It's also not clear that Rayleigh started moving before Kizaru, and if he didn't, the calc might be off by a factor of ten. 

You can certainly claim that you have debunked my arguments, but I quite doubtful that it will have the effect you think it will. Why don't you call it headcanon a bit more? I'm sure that will show everyone how good your arguments are. 



Skinny Phallus said:


> @Flame Don't ever link me this special-ed kids bullshit on this section ever again. This is actually frustrating to know I share a site with OJ's VS level of dumbassery.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Dunno said:


> but that speed is most likely not anywhere close to 3x10^8 m/s. It's really fast, but that's about it.


It is ligh so it must be that speed,  or do we use this  to calc another fictional characters like Goku for example who should be at  trilions of time the speed of Light, LOL!



Dunno said:


> The author's intent isn't "Kizaru moves at 3x10^8 m/s, which due to the general theory of relativity makes it so that he doesn't age and also makes the impacts of his kicks have literally infinite energy, thus allowing him to destroy the entire universe". The intent is "Kizaru moves really fast and therefore kicks really hard". Literally no law of physics from our universe can be applied to the OP universe, so why would the speed of light remain the same?


WTF, Goku moves at a speed trillion of time FTL  and he does not do this.

Fiction does not work that way, you are setting the limit of a pueril civilization like ours how uses fosel fuil as what a fictional world should be!

You see that these guys can generate mutiple Gigatons with basic punches, something that is not possible in real life but you are saying that SOL is impossible, so tell how is sinking islands possible but a photon man traveling at SOL is not?




Dunno said:


> None of my arguments have been debunked and you have provided no evidence whatsoever for Kizaru being able to move at 3x10^8 m/s. You haven't even provided evidence that Kizaru moves at the speed of light, although I agree with that so evidence is in that case not necessary.


How will you disprove the speed of L, LOL!

Can you disrove that Speed of Light is not the speed of Light ) ?



Dunno said:


> What other speed would he move at? Fujitora can control gravity. This does not mean that gravity works the same way it does in our universe, it just means that he can control the gravity in One Piece, however that works. What is also obvious is that the physics in OP works in different ways than they do in our universe.


it is fiction if the author says it is Light and gravity then that it is, you don't even know how the speed of L work in real life because it does not exist for now for other things that are not photons.

So to say that light does not have the speed of light is ignorant and until the authors says it is not the speed of light it remains the speed of light,and the speed of light is only one made by a human ODA so until he says it is not like in real life it is the speed of light from your reality!

I will give Goku as an example again, he breaks out of time with speed alone, no tell me is that SOL or not ?


----------



## NooksBrigade (Jun 18, 2019)

Kizaru moves at light speed when in his element (light). Everyone else is just massively hypersonic, and I'm guessing that CoO FS will bridge that speed gap for Sanji (If he ends up fighting Kizaru).


Also, Kizaru needs to turn back into his normal physical self to inflict damage when kicking. Doubt he is willing to kick something at lightspeed since that would destroy his foot/leg/body.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

NooksBrigade said:


> Doubt he is willing to kick something at lightspeed since that would destroy his foot/leg/body.


He is light and he will not be damaged by his element .


----------



## Izaya X (Jun 18, 2019)

Kaido high diffs Prime Rayleigh 
His feats are better 
Kaido wins


----------



## Dunno (Jun 18, 2019)

QMS said:


> It is ligh so it must be that speed,  or do we use this  to calc another fictional characters like Goku for example who should be at  trilions of time the speed of Light, LOL!
> 
> 
> WTF, Goku moves at a speed trillion of time FTL  and he does not do this.
> ...


In Dragon Ball, we also see Goku travel around the planet in seconds. If we had seen Marco do that, there would be no question about him being able to move tens of thousands of kilometres each second. He hasn't though. We have no feat of a character moving a certain distance over a certain amount of time that would indicate this. Why would the speed of light be consistent with our universe when exactly every other physical property is different? Especially when we have seen that it takes time for every single character to move between islands. I have never said that Kizaru does not move at the speed of light, all I have said is that he can't move 300 000 kilometres in one second. All of the evidence that we have points towards people being unable to move at those speeds.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Dunno said:


> In Dragon Ball, we also see Goku travel around the planet in seconds.


Mate he is trillions of time faster than Light how would you calc that?

He can shake infinite dimension and yet he never once destroyed a planet, do you get this?

Big bang is children's game for Goku in SS red and that is weak to current standards!

He sliped a time freeze and escape a no time dimistion how do you calc this using math?



Dunno said:


> We have no feat of a character moving a certain distance over a certain amount of time that would indicate this. Why would the speed of light be consistent with our universe when exactly every other physical property is different?


LOL did you read OP, do you get that there is movement speed and reflex speed and attack speed?

In OP even if someone is FTL, Oda will, never break the narrative of OP aka exploring the grand line to give examples of s=d/t ...

I will double dip and show you this:

Unlimited Speed
Myriad Speed
Absolute Speed
Incalculable Speed
Absolute Velocity
Cosmic Speed
Faster Than Light
Above Speed
Massive Faster Than Light
Godlike Speed
Infinite Speed
Supreme Velocity
Absolute Velocity
Speed Force
Perfect Speed
True Speed
Ultimate Speed
Supreme Speed
Immeasurable Speed
Neither of these need calcs and are what they are!



Dunno said:


> have said is that he can't move 300 000 kilometres in one second. All of the evidence that we have points towards people being unable to move at those speeds.


I think I read somewhere this so only if someone does 300k K in 1s he is LS ).

So tell me this does the Ligh in OP travel with 300k or not ?


@Hades92  this gives me vibes OJ nike982  with attack speed and all )


----------



## Dunno (Jun 18, 2019)

QMS said:


> Mate he is trillions of time faster than Light how would you calc that?
> 
> He can shake infinite dimension and yet he never once destroyed a planet, do you get this?
> 
> ...


The way you would calc it is by dividing distance travelled by the time it takes. You would of course need some information about distances and time. If you don't have that data, or similar data about another character, then his speed in incalculable, just like everything else that you lack information of. I'm not really sure about DB Super, but I think it took Vhis quite some time to fly from Earth to their home base when he was going to train Goku. This shows that at least his speed is measurable. I don't know how he compares to Goku, but if he's comparable, then we know that Goku's speed is limited, even if we don't know exactly what it is. And of course FTL speeds need calcs, at least in most fictional universes. There's a huge difference between being able to move 2 times the speed of light or 10^100 times. 

Yes, there is difference between movement speed and reflex speed and attack speed, but the difference cannot be too huge. A character can't reasonably be able to move at 300 000 m/s in battle but at 50 m/s while travelling, all else equal. Since Oda will never show anyone moving at speeds that high, we will never get a feat of anyone moving that fast, and since we can't assume that the physics in One Piece are the same as in our universe, we can't assume that the speed of light is the same either. 

Speed is distance travelled divided by the time it took to travel that distance. Some characters can move at infinite speed, and thus their speed is infinite. No such character exists in One Piece though, so I don't really get why you would bring it up?


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Dunno said:


> The way you would calc it is by dividing distance travelled by the time it takes.


So  Raditz  in DBZ dodged a beam from Picolo that used a slower move to destroy the move with relativistc speed if not LS, calculated by many!

Power level scals to speed and power;

Raditz is 1400 point or something, Picolo attack at LS wit 400, Raditz dodged a FTLS move from Picolo;

Namek Saga Frieza was 150M and those scale as I said proportionaly in speed;
 Cell was 4.5B in power level;

Picolo attacked at LS with 400 point and Cell was 4.5B resulting  that Cell is 11.250k time faster the piccolo and Piciolo destryed the moon at LS so Cell is  11M+ time SPL :
tell me how will you calc that using s=d/t ??


Dunno said:


> Speed is distance travelled divided by the time it took to travel that distance


Are you sure, does this apply in quantum realm or  in high gravity areas let alon into a dingularity ?

s=d/t is not universal for all existence even in our own reality ).

I don't have the time  to do the math but here for Jiren:


Hmmm:


And SL is still present here, but take note this was movement speed and not attack speed which should be faster .


----------



## Dunno (Jun 18, 2019)

QMS said:


> So let me educate you Raditz  in DBZ dodged a beam from Picolo that used a slower move to destroy the move with relativistc speed if not LS, calculated by many!
> 
> Power level scals to speed and power;
> 
> ...



You always needs to start with a speed feat. The only way to know the speed of Picolo's move is to measure how fast it travels or by getting it confirmed in another way. After that, you can scale people by power level, assuming they are correct and that we know that they scale proportionally to speed. These power levels seem to be convenient. 



QMS said:


> Are you sure, does this apply in quantum realm or  in high gravity areas let alon into a dingularity ?
> 
> s=d/t is not universal for all existence even in our own reality ).


How do you know that it isn't? I can't say that I'm an expert at quantum physics, but as far as I know, the concept of speed is the same there as everywhere else, it is only a bit more impossible to measure exactly. We don't even know if singularities exist and I don't know of any way that they would interfere with the concept of speed. Either way, we are not talking about extreme cases here. We are talking about relatively normal people moving at relatively mundane speeds in presumably relatively mundane gravity.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Yes, there is difference between movement speed and reflex speed and attack speed, but the difference cannot be too huge. A character can't reasonably be able to move at 300 000 m/s in battle but at 50 m/s while travelling, all else equal. Since Oda will never show anyone moving at speeds that high, we will never get a feat of anyone moving that fast, and since we can't assume that the physics in One Piece are the same as in our universe, we can't assume that the speed of light is the same either.


LOL light there moves on what speed, LOL So for you only moving 300.000m in  1 s will be proff;

Let's see doding a point black explsion is how fast ?

Typical  in gases range from 1800  to 3000 m/s. Typical velocities in solid explosives often range beyond 4000 m/s to 10300 m/s.
 So it can be 10k m/s that is at  1/30 LS and that was done in base by Luffy with Soru SN is much faster and it is still a high tier feat etc!



Dunno said:


> You always needs to start with a speed feat. The only way to know the speed of Picolo's move is to measure how fast it travels or by getting it confirmed in another way. After that, you can scale people by power level, assuming they are correct and that we know that they scale proportionally to speed. These power levels seem to be convenient.
> 
> 
> How do you know that it isn't? I can't say that I'm an expert at quantum physics, but as far as I know, the concept of speed is the same there as everywhere else, it is only a bit more impossible to measure exactly. We don't even know if singularities exist and I don't know of any way that they would interfere with the concept of speed. Either way, we are not talking about extreme cases here. We are talking about relatively normal people moving at relatively mundane speeds in presumably relatively mundane gravity.


LOL you wanted to do it technically, in the quantum realm a bit is 0 and 1 on the same time, a molecule is here and there in the same time meaning that time and space as you know it irrelevant so tell me how will you calculate speed with volatile space and time?

We know, every galaxy has one in the center of it.
Simple infinite gravity means no time and space, light is fast as it is, but it is too slow for the event horizon it is bent and sucks into nothingness;


In a singularity the concept of time and space does not exist so there is no speed without that !



Dunno said:


> The only way to know the speed of Picolo's move is to measure how fast it travels or by getting it confirmed in another way.


This was done in the anime it took ~ the speed of Light from execution to disintegration of the moon and then a faster move that scaled at 3 times  his normal power level was used meaning it was ~r time LS and those were million of time weaker than Cell that he himself is millions of time weaker than other character so my point it was that  LS in fiction is not that impressive !


----------



## Dunno (Jun 18, 2019)

QMS said:


> LOL light there moves on what speed, LOL So for you only moving 300.000m in  1 s will be proff;
> 
> Let's see doding a point black explsion is how fast ?
> 
> ...


You are again applying real world physics to the situation. The reason that the explosions expand that fast is that force acts the way it does. The speed of explosions in other universes might be entirely different.



QMS said:


> LOL you wanted to do it technically, in the quantum realm a bit is 0 and 1 on the same time, a molecule is here and there in the same time meaning that time and space as you know it irrelevant so tell me how will you calculate speed with volatile space and time?
> 
> We know, every galaxy has one in the center of it.
> Simple infinite gravity means no time and space, light is fast as it is, but it is too slow for the event horizon it is bent and sucks into nothingness;



It isn't that simple. The particles aren't really at two specific places at the same time, but they rather have a certain probability of being detected in a lot of different places. In any case, I don't think either one of us is qualified to elaborate on this matter too much. We also don't know if there is a singularity at the centre of each galaxy or not. There are theories that support it, and theories that don't.



QMS said:


> In a singularity the concept of time and space does not exist so there is no speed without that !
> 
> 
> This was done in the anime it took ~ the speed of Light from execution to disintegration of the moon and then a faster move that scaled at 3 times  his normal power level was used meaning it was ~r time LS and those were million of time weaker than Cell that he himself is millions of time weaker than other character so my point it was that  LS in fiction is not that impressive !



We don't know what effects a singularity would have or space or time. There are multiple theories claiming different things and none of them have been confirmed or generally accepted. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it doesn't seem to be correct. 3x10^8 m/s isn't impressive in DB, where characters move across the universe in seconds. In One Piece, it is, since characters need hours to move between islands.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Dunno said:


> It isn't that simple. The particles aren't really at two specific places at the same time, but they rather have a certain probability of being detected in a lot of different places. In any case, I don't think either one of us is qualified to elaborate on this matter too much. We also don't know if there is a singularity at the centre of each galaxy or not. There are theories that support it, and theories that don't.


Correct I have Master in CS, not physics )!


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Dunno said:


> You are again applying real world physics to the situation. The reason that the explosions expand that fast is that force acts the way it does. The speed of explosions in other universes might be entirely different.


But that is an excuse, or now any force of nature in OP is not like in reality, also it is there that with LS you create infinite mass and even that is irrelevant because Kaizaru is made of photons that have no mass!

You can't say that light is not light because we did not see him traveling 300m in a s that is a fallacy and until we can contradict the author Kizaru can use LS !



Dunno said:


> You are again applying real-world physics to the situation. The reason that the explosions expand that fast is that force acts the way it does. The speed of explosions in other universes might be entirely different.



So every force of nature is not relevant to you because  ... forget it ... you have no point bar that fallacy!


----------



## Steven (Jun 18, 2019)

What a boring Topic

Kaido scales to Ray in speed,if you like it or not.Nobody has here the upperhand in speed

And now back to Ray vs Kaido

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> What a boring Topic
> 
> Kaido scales to Ray in speed,if you like it or not.Nobody has here the upperhand in speed
> 
> And now back to Ray vs Kaido


@Acnologia  a  new one for you  EOS Zoro mid diffs Kaido


----------



## Santoryu (Jun 18, 2019)

oda doesn't give a crap about calcs



Acnologia said:


> For what you give me a Tier specialist rating?You even agree with me



tier specialist rating is subjective in terms of perception

i like it. it's damn cool



xmysticgohanx said:


> Prime WB > Kaido > *BB *> Mihawk >= Prime Shanks > Prime Ray = Shanks > Big Mom



bb is too high as of now
mihawk would slice that overgrown ass like pineapples rings


----------



## Dunno (Jun 18, 2019)

QMS said:


> But that is an excuse, or now any force of nature in OP is not like in reality, also it is there that with LS you create infinite mass and even that is irrelevant because Kaizaru is made of photons that have no mass!
> 
> You can't say that light is not light because we did not see him traveling 300m in a s that is a fallacy and until we can contradict the author Kizaru can use LS !
> 
> ...


We know that Kizaru had mass when he kicked Hawkins, and that's what I was talking about. The thing is that if you try to apply any law of physics to One Piece, you run into contradictions. Nothing in the universe works the same as it does in our. The speed of light, regular forces and gravity all work differently. I have not said that Kizaru can't move at the speed of light. I have been crystal clear that Kizaru actually moves at the speed of light, I'm not contradicting Oda in any way.


----------



## El Hermano (Jun 18, 2019)

Dunno said:


> I don't think you understand what my argument is. It's obvious that Kizaru moves at the speed of light. He IS light. What other speed would he move at? Fujitora can control gravity. This does not mean that gravity works the same way it does in our universe, it just means that he can control the gravity in One Piece, however that works. What is also obvious is that the physics in OP works in different ways than they do in our universe. I pointed out that light in OP doesn't work the same way it does in out universe. You believe that you have disproved this fact by pointing out that applying physics to One Piece doesn't work, when that was the point all along.
> 
> None of my arguments have been debunked and you have provided no evidence whatsoever for Kizaru being able to move at 3x10^8 m/s. You haven't even provided evidence that Kizaru moves at the speed of light, although I agree with that so evidence is in that case not necessary.
> 
> ...



I came a little calmer to give this one last shot to see if you can actually understand:

-Speed of light is speed of light as we know it. You claim that it can't move at our speed of light, because it'll have devistating effects, and you do this by applying real world physics, which you yourself said cannot be applied to OP's world, but then you say that because they cannot apply to OP's world, then that means describing it as "lightspeed" means a totally different number, despite nothing specific to indicate it? Despite the fact that the author never bothered stating it in the very same Databook where he stated Kizaru moves and attacks at the speed of light? The speed of light was given to us as a way to quantify Kizaru's speed. As long as stated otherwise, there's no reason to assume it's not the exact speed of light as we know it(otherwise, again - it would've been specified if it were true, because that'd be oddly specific). The only thing to assume here is that the speed of light as we know it is just as fast in OP, but rather don't have the same effects despite being just as fast.
 There's no specific number given to us by Oda, Oda used specifically the words: "at the speed of light" without giving any different number and didn't just say "just really fast", again - it's your delusional interpretation of it, which indeed falls under the category of "headcanon" - which is shit you speculate without anything to actually back your claims. *Again, the recent canonical Databook stated Kizaru's attacks and movement via DF actually go at the speed of light.*
The burden of proof is on you - you're the one claiming it's not the same speed of light, despite the fact that it was never implied by anyone. It's a conclusion you came to yourself(hence, headcanon).



-There's no reason to assume he didn't, it was clearly stated no one can outspeed Kizaru and that it requires CoO Haki to grasp his movement and attacks. So again, actual canon information is on my side.

Kizaru didn't abort his movement, you can literally see Rayleigh cutting through the mirror, intercepting Kizaru(Kizaru dodged mid-travel). Rayleigh jumped AT Kizaru and intercepted him, no one said Kizaru crossed the entire distance to Rayleigh before he was intercepted, Rayleigh literally intercepted him to prevent him from reaching the strawhats. The entire calculation focuses on how fast Rayleigh would have to be to cut through the beam once Kizaru has started traveling through it.


"why can't they cover the entire world, then?"

A) We don't know how big OP's planet. But it's definitely gigantic. And as you said the OP world does not abide by our laws of physics. Nothing suggests they must be capable of circling it multiple times or cover all of it in no time.
B) Combat speed doesn't necessarily mean similar travel speed. Nor for long distances.
C) It's fiction, a fictional series about pirates exploring the sea. It's about the journey and you could easily argue "plot" and be done with it, since again - the author doesn't take these things to mind. You took this to a whole other level of "oh concept of speed is completely different" despite it never being implied. So yes, you've seen them performing insane speed feats during combat but lesser feats when it comes to traveling. One does not cancel out the other.
D) They also have slower and weaker members, at times all entire fleets of them. Not all are as capable.

This is fiction, as you said - they do not abide by laws of physics. But that doesn't mean that when something is clearly stated to be moving at/faster than the speed of light, it must mean it has a different number than real world speed of light unless stated otherwise. the laws of physics are often disregarded in fiction, but that doesn't change the author's intent. You're CHOOSING to interpret it as "different speed of light" rather than just it being the same speed of light as we know it, but with different consequences. The latter is much more logical, considering it was never implied it's different than ours, and again - the intent is obvious, otherwise Oda would have been more specific about it if he had different laws of physics for the OP world in mind. There was also SBS where Oda stated that Kuro can move at 200kmph, you wanna tell me that's different than our 200kmph, too? Because Oda never stated it, and if you say so, it's indeed headcanon because you're interpreting a very specific statement in a completely different light because you think it's true.

*Also, fun fact - the widly accepted and used SFX for describing the speed of light known as "zip" was used when Kizaru shot his beams and moved through the mirror when he faced Rayleigh.*


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Dunno said:


> We know that Kizaru had mass when he kicked Hawkins, and that's what I was talking about.


And I am not talking about that ), I am talking about the Yamato mirror movement;

I did not say that he always moves at LS .

So there you can't prove he had mass, he was in his light element  aka photons.

Mate, I told you if you use your calcs you can't deduce why KKG has 1000 Hiroshima of energy but it does.



Santoryu said:


> bb is too high as of now
> mihawk would slice that overgrown ass like pineapples rings


Meh BB will surpass WB in 2 arcs or so sorry but WSS has no chance!


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 18, 2019)

QMS said:


> Meh BB will surpass WB in 2 arcs or so sorry but WSS has no chance!


Blackbeard is the real deal, zehahahaha


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Photons can travel at the speed of light freely in space without producing infinite energy.
> 
> With that said Prime Rayleigh *shits on Kaido*. Stop the *wank*!


You say that and then contradict yourself.

Kaido is the strongest, Ray never was so yes stop the wank!

Kaido > prime Ray!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 18, 2019)

The real question: is EOS Zoro stronger than prime Rayleigh? 
Anyway Kaido high diffs prime Rayleigh

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 18, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> The real question: is EOS Zoro stronger than prime Rayleigh?
> Anyway, Kaido high diffs prime Rayleigh


Nibbas,  as I said some believe that WSS Zoro mid diffs Kaido .

Prime Ray > WSS Mihawk any day of the year.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 18, 2019)

QMS said:


> Nibbas,  as I said some believe that WSS Zoro mid diffs Kaido .
> 
> Prime Ray > WSS Mihawk any day of the year.


Man Kaido and EOS Blackbeard need to become stronger to have a chance against the mighty future WSS mr faint


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 18, 2019)

QMS said:


> You say that and then contradict yourself.
> 
> Kaido is the strongest, Ray never was so yes stop the wank!
> 
> Kaido > prime Ray!


What kinda stupid ass reasoning is that lol? Kaido was a nobody when Prime Ray was ruling the seas alongside Roger.
Rayleigh's name is known in every history book, he is literal God of Haki, has not lost a single battle as far as we know despite him likely fighting likes of Garp and Sengoku, is compared to Whitebeard who factually has better hype than Kaido by Garp, someone respected by many as greatest marine of all time. 

In comparison Kaido is a pussy ass liar who pretends like he wants to die yet is scared of jumping in ocean. Needed Orochi's help to defeat Oden, get punked out and captured by Marines several times, get told to fuck off by Rayleigh's cabin boy Shanks and he indeed fucked off, has wonky ass hype of WSC despite loosing like a bitch 7 times and Nami had no idea who Kaido was yet she knew who Rayleigh was as his name is KNOWN IN EVERY MOTHERFUCKING HISTORY BOOK.

Rayleigh's stature, his hype, his reputation, his notoriety shits all over Kaido's. Kaido gets spanked like a bitch, considering he was sweating buckets at the thought of trash can like Big Meme approaching his territory, same Big Meme who is factually a mere Yonko next to Pirate King. Same Pirate King who calls Rayleigh his partner while the said pirate king's greatest rival compares the threat of Rayleigh to threat of said pirate kings greatest pirate rival of all time, said rival who shits on Kaido's entire career.

Rayleigh > Kaido any day all day. STOP THE WANK!!


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> when Prime Ray was ruling the seas alongside Roger.


Mate ray was a subordinate of Roger, he never ruled the seas that was Roger.

Roger and WB were the strongest now is kaido, next will BB and Luffy!

Ray is one of my favorite and stronger then WSS but he was never stronger than the current strongest character!



Shishio ishere said:


> is compared to Whitebeard who factually has better hype than Kaido by Garp, someone respected by many as greatest marine of all time.


Roger is the only one compared to WB so stop this crap, legends means shit, Chinjao was one.

Prime WB was above all bar Roger, Ray was not, Kaido is above all, Ray was not.

Prime Ray is above WSS and Kizaru, Kaido is above all including Akainu .


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh's stature, his hype, his reputation, his notoriety shits all over Kaido's. Kaido gets spanked like a bitch, considering he was sweating buckets at the thought of trash can like Big Meme approaching his territory,


Getting angry= afraid
If thats the case then Big mom was scared of King  the dude whose hobby is suicide was "afraid" the dude who challenged the emperors and the marines single handedly was "afraid"

 funny shit.
Kaido>prime Rayleigh > Vista=EOS Zoro
 deal with it


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

EoS Zoro is second coming of Ryuma, Ryuma was literally the man who held off an entire era, protected a country of Gold from World Government and Pirates in an era where devil fruit and Haki was main stay. Could be a pioneer, the discoverer of Armament Haki as Wano seems to be origin country of Haki with concepts like Ryouou, is literally worshipped as a deity and regarded as "Sword God". Due to Benkei's own words, Ryuma is the one who showed World Government and Pirates the strength of the samurai and created a reputation so strong, Marines still to this day after centuries don't fuck with Wano. Yet about Kaido and Big Mom meeting, Kizaru gave zero fucks and was ready to go only for Akainu to stop him because of samurai who are notorious because of reputation created by who kids? Yes SWORD GOD Ryuma. World Government failed to do anything to Wano in Ryuma's presence, same world government who had an ancient weapon which I have a theory that the dragon horn used in Monsters against Ryuma is Ancient Weapon "Uranus", that will only be another notch to already godly resume of Sword God.

Dragon Slayer Ryuma with his permanent haki ass rapes Kaido and takes his head of any day all day. 2nd Sword God Zoro does the same.
Prime Rayleigh while not quite as strong as EoS Zoro, still beats Kaido.



QMS said:


> Mate ray was a subordinate of Roger, he never ruled the seas that was Roger.
> 
> Roger and WB were the strongest now is kaido, next will BB and Luffy!
> 
> ...


Bull shit, Roger called Rayleigh his partner so he is his partner. Also all of Roger pirates were called his subordinates in his vivre card, stop being in delusion. Rayleigh's notoriety rivals Roger's own, his name is known in all history books. I am just dropping fax fax fax. Get outta denial and stop wanking that shitty ass dragon Kaido.



Gotenks92 said:


> Getting angry= afraid
> If thats the case then Big mom was scared of King  the dude who is hobby is suicide was "afraid" the dude who attacked the emperors and the marines single handedly was "afraid"
> 
> funny shit.
> Kaido>prime Rayleigh > Vista=EOS Zoro


Big Mom is an actual trash can though. King one shot her ass!



Shishio ishere said:


> Big Mom is an actual trash can though. King one shot her ass!


"Lul attack" his ass was capture 30+ times, probably survived because Akainu didn't bother wasting his time on his useless ass.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Bull shit, Roger called Rayleigh his partner so he is his partner.


Meh, you point is, still was below him.

Partner doesn't mean equal mate, WB was his equal!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Anyways stop trolling @QMS and accept the fax. EoS Zoro > Ryuma >> Prime Ray > Kaido.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Anyways stop trolling @QMS and accept the fax. EoS Zoro > Ryuma >> Prime Ray > Kaido.


Mate your facts are your facts, Oda said other things so stop the wank!

Ryuma > EOS Zoro because he is only WSS, not Sword God so here are your facts.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Meh, you point is, still was below him.
> 
> Partner doesn't mean equal mate, WB was his equal!


Eh, he sure as hell not mere compared to Roger. Rayleigh's stature is basically same as Roger, Pirate King and Dark King with both their name etched in all history books. Whitebeard's notoriety isn't even on Rayleigh level considering Nami had no idea who Whitebeard was, let alone Kaido.

Prime Rayleigh is factually second greatest pirate of all time by virtue of being Roger's "Partner" and right hand man who knows the truth about void century, known in every history book, whose treat even in old and rusty age is compared to that of Whitebeard who has an entire yonko crew.

Kaido gets bitch slapped and gets his head ripped off. Too easy. Rayleigh too strooonk.



QMS said:


> Mate your facts are your facts, Oda said other things so stop the wank!
> 
> Ryuma > EOS Zoro because he is only WSS, not Sword God so here are your facts.


No lol, facts are facts by their very definition.

Zoro will become WSS first by defeating Mihawk, then he will become Sword God by defeating Gandhi Gorosei.

Also watch when Zoro takes Kaido's head off in Wano and makes permanent black blade. Spoiler faxx.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh's stature is basically same as Roger,


Nope WB had that ...


Shishio ishere said:


> Prime Rayleigh is factually second greatest pirate of all time by virtue of being Roger's "Partner" and right hand man who knows


Mate is was WB era after Roger not Ray could you stop misleading others?


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Big Mom is an actual trash can though. King one shot her ass!


King has a chance against Mihawk tho 


QMS said:


> Mate your facts are your facts, Oda said other things so stop the wank!
> 
> Ryuma > EOS Zoro because he is only WSS, not Sword God so here are your facts.


So basically he is saying EOS Zoro is >>> Kaido  a fan can dream after all


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> No lol, facts are facts by their very definition.


Facts are statements from Oda, what you said is not that so

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Zoro will also cut the entire red line producing continental level greatest DC feat of all time, permanently allowing pirates to go new world without needing to go to FMI. That would be his first blessing as next sword God. Rayleigh, while not quite sword god was still PK's partner and right hand and shits on Kaido with his name etched in every history book. How many history books talk about Kaido?


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> So basically EOS Zoro is >>> Kaido  a fan can dream after all


You taught I was kidding with the mid diff, here it is ).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> King has a chance against Mihawk tho
> 
> So basically he is saying EOS Zoro is >>> Kaido  a fan can dream after all


Bruh I made such amazing Mihawk feat in @Light D Lamperouge 's "Mihawk is top 2 in the verse", you should check it out. And no seppuku knife Mihawk accidentally one shots King.

Its not really a dream, its just facts. Its too bad, Oda wanks Zoro too much, I don't like it. Zoro too overpowered.



QMS said:


> You taught I was kidding with the mid diff, here it is ).


Fax bruh!


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Zoro will also cut the entire red line producing continental level greatest DC feat of all time,


Did not happen so no facts here


Shishio ishere said:


> Zoro too overpowered.


Yes so OP that Killer made him sleep after one wound!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Facts are statements from Oda, what you said is not that so


Not really. Oda doesn't need to say it in SBS, feats in manga are also facts. Zoro cutting mountain sized Pica = Fact. Mihawk cutting an iceberg bigger than MF = Fact. Mihawk being stronger than all swordsmen in the world = facts. Kaido being a bitch to scared to jump in ocean yet pretends like he wants to die = fact. Kaido loosing 7 times = facts.
Fax Fax Fax.


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Zoro will also cut the entire red line producing continental level greatest DC feat of all time, permanently allowing pirates to go new world without needing to go to FMI. That would be his first blessing as next sword God. Rayleigh, while not quite sword god was still PK's partner and right hand and shits on Kaido with his name etched in every history book. How many history books talk about Kaido?


He couldn't even cut Kyoshiro


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Did not happen so no facts here
> 
> Yes so OP that Killer made him sleep after one wound!


Bruh out of topic so lets stop.

Rayleigh > Kaido is an opinion closest to fax. Just accept and move on. Rayleigh's name is known in all history books, Rayleigh is too big for Kaido to defeat. His stature dwarfs Kaido's stature who is mere yonko trash.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Not really. Oda doesn't need to say it in SBS, feats in manga are also facts.


Yes, and all those feats are below  Kaido one shoting an FM!

Vista was trolling WSS and Kaido one-shots!


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> He couldn't even cut Kyoshiro


Bruh off topic but Kyoshiro is 99.99% strongest samurai in Wano and stronger than King so 2 sword Zoro not one shotting him is still OP. Fact that Zoro wasn't one shot by King level+ fighter like Big Mom was shows how OP Zoro is. Fax right there.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh > Kaido is an opinion closest to fax.


Opinion and facts are two opposite things!

Kaido is the strongest now is fact or fax so yes let's move on.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Yes, and all those feats are below  Kaido one shoting an FM!
> 
> Vista was trolling WSS and Kaido one-shots!


Lol no, Luffy is not FM. Boundman is trash, he was running away from Kuri and was schooled by him. Luffy never used snakeman on Kaido.

Rayleigh's name is known in all history books, he is pirate king's partner, can fight an admiral at LS in old age. His feats shit on Kaido's. Stop trying. Kaido too weak next to Prime Ray. Just accept the faxx and move on.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Fax right there.





Shishio ishere said:


> Just accept the faxx and move on.



This ??


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Bruh I made such amazing Mihawk feat in @Light D Lamperouge 's "Mihawk is top 2 in the verse", you should check it out. And no seppuku knife Mihawk accidentally one shots King.



Yeah right


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Oppoion and facts are two opposite things!
> 
> Kaido is the strongest now is a fact bit fax so yes let's move on.


Idk what oppoion is but an opinion is used when the date is lacking to know actual facts. But I guarantee you Oda is too smart to make trash can like Kaido stronger than second biggest pirate of all time who is dark king, Pirate king's partner and whose name is known in all history books. Kaido gets molly whopped by Rayleigh by fax.



Gotenks92 said:


> Yeah right


Mihawk is showing Vista so much mercy there its crazy. If he got even 1/10000th of as pissed as Kaido got, Vista would be in after life right now. Mihawk would do the same to boundman with one iceberg slash. Fact that Luffy is still alive after taking a named attack from Kaido when a nameless attack from Mihawk will cut his ass in half shows how trash kaido is. Kaido too weak. Rayleigh beats his ass.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Idk what opinion is but an opinion is used when the date is lacking to know actual facts.



So not a fact, got it!

Fact is something that happened nothing that you said is that!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Lol no, Luffy is not FM. Boundman is trash, he was running away from Kuri and was schooled by him. Luffy never used snakeman on Kaido.
> 
> Rayleigh's name is known in all history books, he is pirate king's partner, can fight an admiral at LS in old age. His feats shit on Kaido's. Stop trying. Kaido too weak next to Prime Ray. Just accept the faxx and move on.


Vista > Luffy?




Shishio ishere said:


> Mihawk is showing Vista so much mercy there its crazy. If he got even 1/10000th of as pissed as Kaido got, Vista would be in after life right now. Mihawk would do the same to boundman with one iceberg slash. Fact that Luffy is still alive after taking a named attack from Kaido when a nameless attack from Mihawk will cut his ass in half shows how trash kaido is. Kaido too weak. Rayleigh beats his ass.


Key word: Postponement


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> So not a fact, got it!
> 
> Fact is something that happened nothing that you said is that!


Rayleigh's reputation being greater than Kaido is an actual fact though. Its not even debatable, his name is known in all history books, he is pirate king's partner dark king whose threat level is comparable to WB's even in old age. Kaido is a mere yonko who lost 7 times, sweats on Big Mom and is capture so many times like a tool


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh's reputation being greater than Kaido is an actual fact though


Reputation is not PL and that is fax!


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> Vista > Luffy?


Luffy is trash though. Vista is confirmed core member of the crew in a vivre card unlike Jozu and Ace so he is WB's second commander who shits on Cracker. Luffy couldn't even beat Cracker. So yeah Vista beats Boundman Luffy's ass if Luffy only has boundman for 20 minutes. Those are facts. Vista would put up better fight against Kaido then Luffy did.


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh's reputation being greater than Kaido is an actual fact though. Its not even debatable,


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Reputation is not PL and that is fax!


Nope, Reputation = Stature = Power otherwise Kaido is trash too. If we take away his title, he is a looser who lost 7 times, got capture 30+ times, is scared of ocean, scared of Big Meme mere yonko whose best feat is one shotting a trash can.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Just accept the faxx and move on.


You overuse this statement and this is usually used when you have no feats to provide so yes let's move on.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

How you gonna laugh at facts? Tell me how many history books is Kaido's name known in? Tell me if Kaido is not a mere yonko while Rayleigh is pirate king's partner? Tell me did Garp (another person whose notoriety shits on Kaido) compared Rayleigh's legend to that of Whitebeard whose reputation again shits on Kaido as it is implied and down right stated this new era belongs to Whitebeard? 

Rayleigh can be argued as second greatest pirate of all time based on his rep, Kaido can't even be argued top 3.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Nope, Reputation = Stature = Power


NOPE FEATS >>>>>>>>>that

WB had feats in old age against Akainu he is much stronger in Prime and Roger was at that level;

Kaido one shoted a FM that is a feat;

WSS got the MF treatment those are all feats !

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> You overuse this statement and this is usually used when you have no feats to provide so yes let's move on.


There are feats though. Ray can fight on LS, Kaido can't. Ray can hold back Kizaru who would one shot Luffy with YnK for half an hour or more. Rayleigh is Haki God Kaido is not.

Kaido ain't got shit on Rayleigh by feats


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Luffy is trash though. Vista is confirmed core member of the crew in a vivre card unlike Jozu and Ace so he is WB's second commander who shits on Cracker. Luffy couldn't even beat Cracker. So yeah Vista beats Boundman Luffy's ass if Luffy only has boundman for 20 minutes. Those are facts. Vista would put up better fight against Kaido then Luffy did.


Luffy > Vista 
Kaido one shotted Luffy
Mihawk asked for postponement 
If EOS Zoro is a 100
Then Vista and Mihawk are 99


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> NOPE FEATS >>>>>>>>>that
> 
> WB had feats in old age against Akainu he is much stronger in Prime and Roger was at that level;
> 
> ...


For godsakes stop lying. Kaido never one shot a first mate, he one shot a trash can Boundman who was being schooled and bullied by a FM, weakest first mate I'd say in Katakuri. Bound man Luffy is horse piss, he is not FM level.

Rayleigh put up better fight against Kizaru then WB did against any admiral. Another fact. Rayleigh fought Kizaru at light speed another fact. Facts and feats left and right.

Kaido gets his ass beat. Too easy.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Ray can fight on LS, Kaido can't


That is a fallacy at best!

You already said that before, you saying that Kaido can't fight Kizaru does not make it true!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> Luffy > Vista
> Kaido one shotted Luffy
> Mihawk asked for postponement
> If EOS Zoro is a 100
> Then Vista and Mihawk are 99


Luffy > Vista -> You made that shit up
Mihawk asked for postponement -> Vista too weak for Mihawk to waste his time on. Mihawk treated Vista like he treated Don Krieg

EoS Zoro 100
Ryuma 99
Kaido 90
Prime Ray 92


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> That is a fallacy at best!
> 
> You already said that before, you saying that Kaido can't fight Kizaru does not make it true!


Well Rayleigh not being able to one shot Luffy is also a fallacy, yet it doesn't stop you from using it.
Too bad you still couldn't figure out I was using your own strategy against you. Those 6 degrees ain't helping much.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Well Rayleigh not being able to one shot Luffy is also a fallacy,


Mate I never said that so it is not a fallacy because I never said it, you said that Kaido can't fight Kizaru at LS because Ray can so a falacy .



Shishio ishere said:


> I only drop facts!


Nope only faxxxxxxxx .


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Btw I, in all seriousness put both Rayleigh and Kaido on same level. Rayleigh has better overall reputation and hype but I do agree his feat of one shotting Luffy was insane. I do think Prime Ray can pull off the same feat though considering Old ray can hold Kizaru at bay and Admirals were treating yonko commanders like bugs in Wano, like you have Akainu literally treat marco and vista attacks like mosquito bites. I think Kizaru is basically up there with Akainu. 

Its probably an equal fight or Kaido might win extreme diff


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Btw I, in all seriousness put both Rayleigh and Kaido on same level.


Please stop, WSC is currently strongest so...



Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh has better overall reputation and hype but I do agree his feat of one shotting Luffy was insane. I do think Prime Ray can pull off the same feat though considering Old ray can hold Kizaru at bay


Well here is something that I could agree.


Shishio ishere said:


> Its probably an equal fight or Kaido might win extreme diff


Keep it up .


More of a high diff but what ever.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Please stop, WSC is currently strongest so...


So what? Is he stronger than Prime WB too? Are we arguing current ray or prime Ray? 

Can you give me a source confirming Kaido was WSS in Prime Rays era? I am too tired rn so if you are not gonna have serious debate and repeat same shit and troll, I'll leave.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Is he stronger than Prime WB too?


Prime WB is stronger then Prime Ray so irrelevant!
Current Kaido is stronger then Prime Ray.

Prime WB is stronger then Kaido not that hard!


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Well here is something that I could agree.
> 
> Keep it up .
> 
> ...


Saying Kaido can win is already giving him benefit of the doubt. Ain't no body high diffing silvers fucking Rayleigh prime.

Actually never mind, Prime Ray wins high diff.



QMS said:


> Prime WB is stronger then Prime Ray so irrelevant!
> Current Kaido is stronger then Prime Ray.
> 
> Prime WB is stronger then Kaido not that hard!


Prime WB >= Prime Ray > Kaido
Old Ray was compared to Old WB who factually has superior hype than Kaido. It was still WBs era, not Kaidos era until his death. Kaido gets his ass beat!


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> I am too tired rn so if you are not gonna have a serious debate and repeat same shit and troll, I'll leave.


A serious debate with you means we should exclude WSS, Zoro, EOS Zoo, Ray. Prime Ray and Ryuma .


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

You have to be indeed very optimistic if you believe Kaido wins this with his shitty ass hype compared to Rayleighs and average feat at best.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Saying Kaido can win is already giving him benefit of the doubt.


The other way around Kaido is currently the strongest, Ray never was so the bet is on Kaido, not Ray ...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> A serious debate with you means we should exclude WSS, Zoro, EOS Zoo, Ray. Prime Ray and Ryuma .


A serious debate with you means we should exclude every thing. I tried, but you ain't fun. 

I am out. Prime Ray wins, facts!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> f you believe Kaido wins this with his shitty ass hype compared


You don't win a fight with hype but feats and one shooting a FM is something that no one did on panel so you scale the rest to that.



Shishio ishere said:


> I tried, but you ain't fun.


Good news there.

Have fun ...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> The other way around Kaido is currently the strongest, Ray never was so the bet is on Kaido, not Ray ...


Current era is trash though considering Sickbeard was king of current era until his death. Rayleigh is comparable to Prime WB based on Garps words and Pirate Kings Partner and man whose name is known in every history book.

Kaido is a random thug mere yonko compared to Rayleigh though. Its disrespectful to even put Kaido in same league as ray hype wise.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> average feat at best.


Good because WSS has subpar feats Prime Ray would high diff Mihawk!



Shishio ishere said:


> Rayleigh is comparable to Prime WB


That is WB so stop this scrip you already said it, and all of them are legends similar to Chinjao .


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> You don't win a fight with hype but feats and one shooting a FM is something that no one did


Well Mihawk tried to act like Kaido but he ended up asking for a postponement


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Current era is trash though considering *Sickbeard was king of current era until his death.*


Yes and not Ray so exactly my point!


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> You don't win a fight with hype but feats and one shooting a FM is something that no one did on panel so you scale the rest to that.


Rayleigh factually has better feats. Fighting Kizaru in CqC in a serious intense light speed battle for half an hour or so >>>> one shotting a trash can like boundman who was getting bullied by another trash can like Katakuri and who would get one shot by either kizaru or old ray.

So Rayleighs repuation shits on Kaidos
Rayleighs hype shits on Kaidos
Rayleighs feats shit on Kaidos


Just accept the feats and stop trying.



QMS said:


> Yes and not Ray so exactly my point!


Ray was in retirement. He was still comparable to Whitebeard in legend according to someone widly known as greatest marine of all time. While Kaido is factually a mere yonko.



Gotenks92 said:


> Well Mihawk tried to act like Kaido but he ended up asking for a postponement


Why would Mihawk try to act like a try hard?


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> He was still comparable to Whitebeard in legend according to someone widly known as greatest marine of all time.


Mate he was a legend like WB, WB has his era and he was the equal of Roger, WSC is currently strongest, nothing related to Ray here.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Also you constantly bringing in Mihawk to divert the topic only shows your desperation dawg. It shows that you know Kaido is horse piss compared to Rayleigh and you have to rely on trolling


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Mate he was a legend like WB, WB has his era and he was the equal of Roger, WSC is currently strongest, nothing related to Ray here.


Not really. Past era belonged to Roger and Rayleigh, they were partners whose name is known in all history books not whitebeard. Rayleigh is a bigger pirate with bigger name value than Rayleigh


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Mihawk to divert the topic only shows your desperation dawg


Not really, no one cares for that except you!
Prime Ray is the bar for Zoro not WSS Mihawk, Kaido is a bar for Luffy so is WB and Roger all stronger then Ray and then it will be BB .


----------



## Shaka the myrmidon (Jun 19, 2019)

Kaido is introduced as someone who can't be beaten one on one. The marines note he's the only one who may be able to defeat this current version of Blackbeard. At the Reverie, they reveal he ran the seas alongside Charlotte and their OG captain(I'm sure they background story here will be insane) long before Roger's run. There's no indication that he's taken a step back in terms of power so I doubt a young Rayleigh at his best could take him down then or now.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Dellinger said:


> @Kinjin
> 
> *Ban this retard.*



Please don't, at max ban him from this thread .


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Not really, no one cares for that except you!
> Prime Ray is the bar for Zoro not WSS Mihawk, Kaido is a bar for Luffy so is WB and Roger all stronger then Ray and BB .


No if you actually payed attention to manga, in universe everyone cares hence why he is known in all history book
 Fact that you mentioned no one cares is your lack of reading comprehension skills and a fallacy known as "appeal to majority". If you were reading manga right, you would know Rayleighs reputation is better than Whitebeards let alone Kaidos who is a mere yonko!


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> No if you actually payed attention to manga


Pay attention, no one from here cares also no one in current timeline cares for a retired pirate so still NO!


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Please don't, at max ban him from this thread .


you literally accepted that you are trolling so if @Kinjin should ban anybody, it should be you lol

All you do is troll and apply circular logic because you can't make a serious argument to save face.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Dellinger said:


> @Kinjin
> 
> Ban this retard.


Lol


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> you would know Rayleighs reputation is better than Whitebeards


WB had an Era after Roger who had one after Rox, WB was the equal of Roger and he could have went to Raftel if he wanted, DD said it right he guarded the Trone.



Shishio ishere said:


> you literally accepted that you are trolling so if @Kinjin should ban anybody


Mate I was trying to help you ...


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> WB had an Era after Roger who had one after Rox, WB was the equal of Roger and he could have went to Raftel if he wanted, DD said it right he guarded the Trone.


Whitebeard had an era to himself because Rayleigh had retired. Rayleigh ruled a better era alongside Roger as dark king and became so big his name was known in every history book.


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> King has a chance against Mihawk tho


King > Vista = Mihawk...as Vista forced posthawk to postpone duel....


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> Mate I was trying to help you ...


Oh you mean ban the guy who wanted this thread banned?


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Whitebeard had an era to himself because Rayleigh had retired. Rayleigh ruled a better era alongside Roger as dark king and became so big his name was known in every history book.


there was no single person said "Rayleigh era"....it was either Roger or Rox or WB era....stop trolling


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> King > Vista = Mihawk...as Vista forced posthawk to postpone duel....


Kaido = Moria (his eternal rival) <<< Jinbe = Big Mom << vista = Mihawk.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Whitebeard had an era to himself because Rayleigh had retired. Rayleigh ruled a better era alongside Roger as dark king


Roger was PK, WB was his equal, ray was not!
Ray ruled nothing as a subordinate ... there were only 3 eras and none was Ray's.


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> King > Vista = Mihawk...as Vista forced posthawk to postpone duel....


Thats why he travels alone outside the new world the dude asked all the pirates for a postponement


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Oh you mean ban the guy who wanted this thread banned?


Nibba read the comments I said if they ban you only from this thread at max or a warning ...


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> there was no single person said "Rayleigh era"....it was either Roger or Rox or WB era....stop trolling


It doesn't need to be said. Previous era is known as era ruled by Roger, Shiki, Rayleigh, Garp and sengoku and WB. No one used the phrase "Rogers era" on cannon either, Roger was just Goat of his era and Ray was close second based on his reputation alone. But don't worry it is too advanced for you to understand. So continue acting your age and trolling.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2019)




----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

I am seriously bored. Y'all boring. Rayleigh beats a mere yonko kaido.


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Roger, Shiki, Rayleigh, Garp and sengoku and WB


Only Roger was PK and it was stated in the manga that it was his ERA ... this is the meaning of a fact, then it was WB era another fact!



Shishio ishere said:


> I am seriously bored. Y'all boring.


I should say that from your first post


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> It doesn't need to be said. Previous era is known as era ruled by Roger, Shiki, Rayleigh, Garp and sengoku and WB. No one used the phrase "Rogers era" on cannon either, Roger was just Goat of his era and Ray was close second based on his reputation alone. But don't worry it is too advanced for you to understand. So continue acting your age and trolling.


Roger's era not Roger's dog thats the difference


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Kaido = Moria (his eternal rival) <<< Jinbe = Big Mom << vista = Mihawk.


lol..Kaido destroyed Moria such that Moria had to go back to paradise and collect zombies....Moria was having nightmares about Kaido...whereas Vista was fine after duel with Posthawk...also Bigmom didn't postpone her attack against Jimbei....JImbei did jack shit against BigMom....it was Jimbei escaping BigMom...not the other way around....



Shishio ishere said:


> It doesn't need to be said. Previous era is known as era ruled by Roger, Shiki, Rayleigh, Garp and sengoku and WB. No one used the phrase "Rogers era" on cannon either, Roger was just Goat of his era and Ray was close second based on his reputation alone. But don't worry it is too advanced for you to understand. So continue acting your age and trolling.


lol...the irony ...Roger era or WB era phrased many times if you have paid attention to manga "One Piece" written by Eichiro Oda instead of "two piece" in your dreamworld ....and look who is saying "continue acting your age and trolling"...no wonder got banned in OJ....learn and behave....otherwise all you will be left with discord...

on second thought...I forgot...your posts are basically 100% trolls....anyways I won't almost never reply to you again....continue with your troll wank...sayonara



Gotenks92 said:


> Thats why he travels alone outside the new world the dude asked all the pirates for a postponement


well pirates won't challenge him...after all he is a government dog

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

It was Rogers era as Roger was Goat kd time and Rayleigh was second best thing as his partner hence why his name is known in all history books and not Whitebeards. After than roger died and Ray retired and WB became greatest pirate in the world. 

Kaido was, is and always will be trash can compared to WB, let alone rayleigh or roger.


----------



## Sade (Jun 19, 2019)

EOS Zoro ~  Ryuma > ~Kaido
It will be an extreme diff fight Kaido might win, but I don't take all the Kaido hype.

Prime WB  and Roger were stronger than Kaido, that's why He wasn't able to achieve nothing in his life.


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Sade said:


> EOS Zoro ~  Ryuma > Kaido


I agree with this if Ryuma > Kaido


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> well pirates won't challenge him...after all he is a government dog


Yeah they don't want to mess with Sakazuki 



Sade said:


> EOS Zoro ~  Ryuma > ~Kaido


KOd his ass


----------



## Sade (Jun 19, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> KOd his ass



His hype is due the fact that he can't be killed but he was already defeated more than one time.

Still wasn't able to achieve nothing like Roger or " Even WB" ( Big Mom words)


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

I love how a condenseding douche who literally showed up with a post saying "Kaido > Big Mom > Vista = Mihawk" obviously trolling and saying off topic shit calls me a troll. 

And as if I give a flying fuck about being banned from a literal garbage dump like OJ where intelligence come to die. Also you don't know shit about me, do you know I was banned for a stupid ass reason and recoilation an admin told me I can appeal any time, I didn't want to return to that shit hole? do you know majority of the active members there are complaining about constant stupid ass decisions by moderators?


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> do you know I was banned for a stupid ass reason and recoilation an admin told me I can appeal any time,  I didn't want to return to that shit hole? do you know majority of the active members there are complaining about constant stupid ass decisions by moderators?


It is ok everything is gonna be alright


----------



## pedxi (Jun 19, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Kaido = Moria (his eternal rival) <<< Jinbe = Big Mom << vista = Mihawk.


Mihawk = Shanks < Lord of the coast

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Sade said:


> His hype is due the fact that he can't be killed but he was already defeated more than one time.


1vs1 bet on Kaido >>> hype of WSS and Zoro will be WSS, not sword god so why are even putting here Ryuma that is again above all swordsmen not all characters.

Can we get that Kaido is currently the strongest ch,  WSS will never be!

Even Ryuma was never stated to be the strongest character of his era so ...

Roger had an Era, WB had one,  WSC is strongest for now!

No other character has this hype except Rox captain.

All of Ryuma's hype is related to his swordsmanship he is above all swordsmen until you have him defeating an Admiral like Akainu or a strong top tier from the past he is what he is.

Or I can claim that Joy Boy is above all ch because he was the Ruler of AK and WG needed 19 countries to defeat him Zehaha.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Sade (Jun 19, 2019)

QMS said:


> 1vs1 bet on Kaido >>> hype of WSS and Zoro will be WSS, not sword god so why are even putting here Ryuma that is again above all swordsmen not all characters.
> 
> Can we get that Kaido is currently the strongest ch,  WSS will never be!
> 
> ...



Yeah and the time when Luffy will defeat Kaido in this arc his Wank and hype will die don't worry.

He has achieved nothing.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Jun 19, 2019)

Sade said:


> Yeah and the time when Luffy will defeat Kaido


Luffy will defeat a lot of characters, what is your point!

Zoro will defeat WSS, so can we stop his wank? and he will solo him, unlike Kaido!


Sade said:


> He has achieved nothing.


Currently, WSS defeated no one including Shanks, so why do you wank him?

He never faced Vista and in the VC the dude is on his level in swordsmanship so tell me what did this guy ever do in the manga to wank him at #2?

If you want to say that a character in the manga that has achieved nothing is the WSS he got his title after Shanks got his hand cut by the editors and he faced none of the stronger swordmen in the world in the current timeline.

If you say title then Kaido also has WSC  > WSS.

If you want feats Kaido one shooting a FM > WSS MF feats!

we can compare all of this and Kaido is on top.

So if Kaido is a loser then the  WSS is below a loser .

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Steven (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> tier specialist rating is subjective in terms of perception
> 
> i like it. it's damn cool


Good if you like

But its still a negativ rating

What did i read?Primebeard~Ray?This thread turns into a trollfest

@Kinjin @Etherborn

Its time to close

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Flame (Jun 19, 2019)

They have nothing to do with this debate. Stop going off topic.


----------



## Kinjin (Jun 19, 2019)

Thread unfortunately run its course, not to mention that Prime Rayleigh is featless anyway.

@QMS @Shishio ishere @Gotenks92

I don't want to see these shenanigans from you anymore. Please stop the derailing/trolling and stay civil. I won't repeat myself again.

I advise you all to read the .

Reactions: Like 1


----------

