# Zoro vs Vergo



## Lycka (Aug 1, 2013)

_Luffy is best at Haoushoku Haki (COC), Zoro at Busoshoku Haki (COA), and Sanji at Kenbunshoku Haki (COO)._

Does Oda's words change your opinion on the outcome of this hypothetical fight? 


vote in poll


Zoro one last time btw.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 1, 2013)

Zoro wins Extreme difficulty or Vergo wins Extreme difficulty. These are the two options. I think Zoro would probably be the winner due to fact he is a high level tank like Vergo, but the difference is he has higher attack power due to his swordsmenship. YES PEOPLE CUTTING/SLASHING>BLUNT FORCE. Thats not my opinion its fact in real life and this manga.  

If anyone trys to say otherwise i will neg you to red no matter how long it takes.


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## Halcyon (Aug 1, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *If anyone tries to say otherwise i will neg you to red no matter how long it takes*.


You're my hero.


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## Bitty (Aug 1, 2013)

No 
Even if the statement you're taking out of context is true, wouldn't matter that much considering Vergo is better at CoA than any of the m3....clearly by feats.

Vergo wins 6/10 times extreme-diff imo.


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## trance (Aug 1, 2013)

OPtiers said:


> _Luffy is best at Haoushoku Haki (COC), Zoro at Busoshoku Haki (COA), and Sanji at Kenbunshoku Haki (COO)._
> 
> *Does Oda's words *change your opinion on the outcome of this hypothetical fight? ]



Proof where Oda said this. 

On topic, it can go either way.


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## trance (Aug 1, 2013)

Waiting for that proof. It's ok, take your time.


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## Null (Aug 1, 2013)

Vergo with extreme diff


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## The Undying (Aug 2, 2013)

Not really seeing how we have much to go by, even when we're guesstimating how difficult it would be.

Betting on Zoro.


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## MayuriKurotsuchisaNazi (Aug 2, 2013)

Plot is on Zoro's side, so Zoro.


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## Language of Life (Aug 2, 2013)

Vergo is like the Zoro of Doffy's crew. 
If they were to fight, Zoro would win with high-extreme diff, leaning towards extreme.


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## Lawliet (Aug 2, 2013)

Zoro wins.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 2, 2013)

Zoro mid difficulty.


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## tanman (Aug 2, 2013)

Vergo with extreme difficulty. 
Maybe when Zoro gets some feats, but I would say PH Zoro has no real means of finishing a fight like this.


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## trance (Aug 2, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Zoro extreme difficulty.



Fixed your typo for you.


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## Kishido (Aug 2, 2013)

Trance said:


> Proof where Oda said this.
> 
> On topic, it can go either way.



SBS Volume 71 Thread is in the library

But Oda hasn't said that Zoro's CoA is the best inbetween the monster trio but that Zoro is the best in CoA


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## Sayonara (Aug 2, 2013)

Zoro was going to win this either way, hard fight but dont really expect extreme. Vergo will probably underestimate Zoro like he did Law and fuck himself over potentially trying to take an attack he should have avoided. 

I dont care if people have problem with that because the way the Sanji/Smoker Vergo fight went down but tough shit that CoA hardening from Vergo really ups his durability , Zoro doesn't have any where near same advantage Law had but hes better equipped for this particular fight than either Sanji or Smoker.

Does Odas words change anything? No. In fact there is still good chance Vergo is still better than Zoro at CoA. But it might explain why Sanji had harder time, with him leaning more to CoO in a repeat fight I would expect Sanji to evade more than try parry attacks.


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## trance (Aug 2, 2013)

Kishido said:


> SBS Volume 71 Thread is in the library
> 
> But Oda hasn't said that Zoro's CoA is the best inbetween the monster trio but that Zoro is the best in CoA



Yeah, I don't go to the Library but thanks for the tip...

Anyway, he still needs actual feats before we say he can beat Vergo...

Also, Oda likely meant among the M3...


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## Halcyon (Aug 2, 2013)

Zorofangirl's Zoro wins low diff.


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## Coruscation (Aug 2, 2013)

Zoro wins and it wouldn't take extreme difficulty.


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 2, 2013)

Zoro wins, because he is confimed as the best CoA user among the Strawhats, meaning that he is even better than Luffy in this field.


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## Dunno (Aug 2, 2013)

Zoro, probably lower end of high diff imo.


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## Bansai (Aug 2, 2013)

Hm... well, I think cutting through a Haki armor is easier than breaking through it. Swords have an advantage in such a scenario, as they are nothing but weapons. No matter how much power you use, you won't feel the pain if your swords can't slice through something. Legs are a different story. As Sanji as shown us, the pain you feel after failing to crush something with a kick is enough to make even someone like Sanji immovable for a bit. If the same happened with Zoro, it wouldn't matter as long as his swords would still be fine. 
In addition I do believe that Zoro's CoA is superior to Sanji's, which is also a really important thing here. I don't know whether he is capable of using this "hardening" technique, therefore I have no right to claim that he does, however, he proved that he can use in general CoA, which may mean that his swords wouldn't become harder by using them with Haki, but the impact of his attacks would be stronger. 
Implying that his swords are solid enough to cut through a CoA armor without being destroyed because of the impact (which I don't really doubt considering how much things Zoro was already able to cut by now), I would give it to Zoro with high difficulty.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 2, 2013)

One of the most important aspects of this fight is how the two characters fight, since their skill-set and fighting styles are almost identical (powerful tanks who rely on close quarters combat). Vergo has the tendency to underestimate characters who are obviously powerful - like Law, for example, whereas Zoro tends to give one hundred percent to everybody he meets. This is the key here, and may allow Zoro to get a few critical hits in early. Vergo is durable, but trying to take on Zoro's attacks would be a terrible idea. His Busoshoku Haki gives him a great defense, but Zoro's Busoshoku Haki is also at the point where damaging/injuring Vergo shouldn't be too difficult with one of his better moves.

Mind, he hasn't shown the true extent of his abilities yet, but based on portrayal thus far (easily destroying every enemy he's faced since the timeskip, for instance), his offensive power should be able to cancel out Vergo's ridiculously strong Busoshoku Haki, especially considering Zoro has piercing power on his side as opposed to blunt force. Vergo's offense isn't to scoff at either and each hit would hurt, but Zoro has better 'raw' durability feats than Vergo (especially based on post-timeskip powerscaling) on top of his Haki.


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## Kishido (Aug 2, 2013)

Trance said:


> Yeah, I don't go to the Library but thanks for the tip...
> 
> Anyway, he still needs actual feats before we say he can beat Vergo...
> 
> Also, Oda likely meant among the M3...



You always in the Battledome... poor soul

Oda not even meant among the m3 as well... He only said in which haki the m3 is best at... Zoro is best in CoA, but it doesn't mean his is better as Luffy's... Same for Sanji and so on


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## Kishido (Aug 2, 2013)

BTW I say Zoro as well... High dif... And yeah I think Sanji loses


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## Lawliet (Aug 2, 2013)

Kishido said:


> BTW I say Zoro as well... High dif... And yeah I think Sanji loses



You do not let your love for Sanji blind  you when it comes to debating things about him. Reps and respect.


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## tanman (Aug 2, 2013)

Really, they have similar problems with feats.  It could go either way, on second thought. Vergo seems to be as fast as Sanji and as strong as Luffy. That's a combination that puts Zoro at a severe disadvantage in my opinion. I don't see base Vergo easily falling prey to Zoro's rushes. Even if he were hit, his durability seems good enough that it wouldn't be the end at all. 

The "x-factor" in this fight is Vergo's hardening. It's obvious that this form increases his physical strength and durability, but it's unknown what effect it has on his speed. If it does in fact decrease his speed (or increase his confidence), then I would give it to Zoro after he unloads his absolute strongest moves that we haven't yet seen to respond to Vergo's further enhanced durability. If Vergo maintains his speed and mindset, then I would give it to Vergo. He now has the physical power and durability to counter slashes with punches and get right in there to deliver his best blows.

I would say Luffy beats Vergo with high/extreme difficulty. Luffy is basically Vergo+ to me.


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## Halcyon (Aug 2, 2013)

Kishido said:


> BTW I say Zoro as well... High dif... And yeah I think Sanji loses


The sarcasm, I never know when it's there


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## Rob (Aug 2, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> If anyone trys to say otherwise i will neg you to red no matter how long it takes.



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Blunt Force>Swords


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## Bitty (Aug 2, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> One of the most important aspects of this fight is how the two characters fight, since their skill-set and fighting styles are almost identical (powerful tanks who rely on close quarters combat). Vergo has the tendency to underestimate characters who are obviously powerful - like Law, for example, whereas Zoro tends to give one hundred percent to everybody he meets. This is the key here, and may allow Zoro to get a few critical hits in early. Vergo is durable, but trying to take on Zoro's attacks would be a terrible idea. His Busoshoku Haki gives him a great defense, but Zoro's Busoshoku Haki is also at the point where damaging/injuring Vergo shouldn't be too difficult with one of his better moves.
> 
> Mind, he hasn't shown the true extent of his abilities yet, but based on portrayal thus far (easily destroying every enemy he's faced since the timeskip, for instance), his offensive power should be able to cancel out Vergo's ridiculously strong Busoshoku Haki, especially considering Zoro has piercing power on his side as opposed to blunt force. Vergo's offense isn't to scoff at either and each hit would hurt, but Zoro has better 'raw' durability feats than Vergo (especially based on post-timeskip powerscaling) on top of his Haki.



dude....why don't you post in the one piece section more often?


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## B Rabbit (Aug 2, 2013)

He's the mod of FT section. Sadly his full time is needed there.


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## tanman (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm pretty confident that Vergo isn't finished and has more feats to come.
Of course, the wiki lists him as dead.


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## Lawliet (Aug 2, 2013)

Halcyon 5 said:


> The sarcasm, I never know when it's there



Did I fall for his sarcasm or he really deserves some respect for not being bias, I can't tell anymore


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## Kishido (Aug 2, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Did I fall for his sarcasm or he really deserves some respect for not being bias, I can't tell anymore



Don't worry... I wasn't sarcastic this time


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## Lycka (Aug 2, 2013)

Dude Sanji beats Vergo. If Zoro high diffs hims Sanji extremes.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 2, 2013)

I hope Vergo and Monet are dead. Very good death scenes.


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## Lawliet (Aug 2, 2013)

Kishido said:


> Don't worry... I wasn't sarcastic this time



Phew, I was going crazy for a moment


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## batman22wins (Aug 2, 2013)

People still thinking Vergo is even top 3 in Flamingo crew is crazy. Zoro wins mid or high


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## B Rabbit (Aug 2, 2013)

I don't see what points to him not being in the top 3.


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## Lawliet (Aug 2, 2013)

Eminem said:


> I don't see what points to him not being in the top 3.



Well. I can only think of two things. First, he's not a seated member, although Vergo's position is as important as those others. 2nd, if Vergo is/was actually one of the top 3 of Dofla's crew, then I don't see how the DD family is going to give the SHs + Law a hard time in a straight up fight, IF they are going to have one.


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## Rob (Aug 2, 2013)

Eminem said:


> I hope Vergo and Monet *are dead*. Very good death scenes.



You're reading One Piece...


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## trance (Aug 2, 2013)

If you don't see the corpse, then you can't confirm they're dead... 

Vergo can still come back...


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## Slenderman (Aug 2, 2013)

Zoro takes it high-extreme diff.


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## Etherborn (Aug 2, 2013)

Either way high difficulty. Sanji admitted that he would have lost, but they were both still in good shape, which means that he could have pushed Vergo to high for all we know. I'm not gonna vote since I'm undecided. 



ShadowReaper said:


> Zoro wins, because he is confimed as the best CoA user among the Strawhats, meaning that he is even better than Luffy in this field.



Is that what he said? I'm pretty sure he just said that Zoro specializes in armaments, meaning that his armaments is better than his observation. It doesn't necessarily mean that he's the best at armaments in the monster trio, although he should definitely be better at it than Sanji, who specializes in observation.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 2, 2013)

Luffy's CoA is overhyped and crap, he can't even protect himself from Hody's shark teeth
Zoro's CoA > Sanji's CoA = Luffy's CoA


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 2, 2013)

8Bit said:


> dude....why don't you post in the one piece section more often?



That can be attributed to habit, lack of time and maybe also because I'm not particularly confident about my knowledge on One Piece.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 2, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Zoro wins and it wouldn't take extreme difficulty.



Corus why you got to wank Zoro bro. 

Vergo was Portrayed better and is quite possibly Stronger then Sanji and Smoker. Even if he's not stronger then either of them, he will be weaker   by a minuscule amount.

Corus don't tell me your of the opinion that Zoro can beat Sanji or Smoker High diff. I thought you supported them. Otherwise honestly I don't see how you could come to this conclusion, besides of course you thinking Smoker/Sanji>Vergo by a decent bit.

Either way I don't see Zoro running around after his fight with Vergo like after his fight with Kaku, dude is going to smash and break his bones and push him to he almost breaks(lose the fight)


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## B Rabbit (Aug 2, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> That can be attributed to habit, lack of time and maybe also because I'm not particularly confident about my knowledge on One Piece.



No one here is. They all change their opinions all the time. 

Well your a op fan. All that matters.


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## Lycka (Aug 2, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *Corus wanking Zoro as always.*



Dat Damage control.


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## trance (Aug 2, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Luffy's CoA is overhyped and crap, he can't even protect himself from Hody's shark teeth
> Zoro's CoA > Sanji's CoA = Luffy's CoA



Zoro is weaker than Luffy bro. 

So, Luffy's BH > Zoro's BH...


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 3, 2013)

To be honest, given their fighting styles and personalities it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say Zoro's offensive power is better. Zoro is a blood knight who enjoys fighting a lot more than Luffy, and has a lot of focus on pure offense. Luffy isn't weak, per se, but he's better rounded both in terms of Haki (is good at everything) and in his repertoire (has supplementary and defensive based moves). Furthermore, while piercing strength may not be as good as blunt force in some cases, but generally against single - human sized - opponents, it's superior. 

Just because Zoro's offense is superior to Luffy's doesn't necessarily put him above Luffy. The two have been put at roughly equal ground since before the timeskip, and there are more factors to consider in a fight than who can hit the hardest. Measuring power levels in such a one dimensional way is silly.


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## Etherborn (Aug 3, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Luffy's CoA is overhyped and crap, he can't even protect himself from Hody's shark teeth



He clearly said that his armaments was weaker against piercing than blunt damage. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. If I had to guess, I'd say Zoro is way more resistant to cutting and piercing attacks and Luffy is infinitely more resistant to brute force. That's the way it's always been, and I think Oda wants to keep it that way since Luffy's defensive style mostly consists of dodging the attacks he thinks will hurt him and tanking the ones he knows won't.



> Zoro's CoA > Sanji's CoA = Luffy's CoA



I'm pretty sure Luffy is superior to Sanji in pretty much anything at this point. Except maybe observation haki. Luffy and Zoro's armaments should be stronger than Sanji's, but it's really a tossup between the two. The main focus of Luffy's training was haki after all. That's why Rayleigh was the perfect teacher, while the main focus of Zoro's training with Mihawk was swordsmanship.


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## convict (Aug 3, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Corus why you got to wank Zoro bro.
> 
> Vergo was Portrayed better and is quite possibly Stronger then Sanji and Smoker. Even if he's not stronger then either of them, he will be weaker   by a minuscule amount.
> 
> ...



I personally believe Law is clearly in the same tier as Vergo and not much stronger at all. However, one could argue had he been fit the whole time he would have beaten him with low difficulty. Why? Because of the nature of his fighting style. More so than Luffy, Zoro's fighting style could give him a victory against Vergo of similar nature despite the fact that he clearly isn't stronger than Luffy.

Of course one can argue that Vergo was merely underestimating Law - a lot of factors come into play - but despite their power levels being pretty close I still do not feel Law would have an extremely difficulty bout against Vergo. Zoro isn't quite as Hax as Law but his strikes are quite lethal as well so it isn't completely stretching it to assume he would win without getting mangled himself despite being close in power.


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## Lawliet (Aug 3, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> To be honest, given their fighting styles and personalities it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say Zoro's offensive power is better. Zoro is a blood knight who enjoys fighting a lot more than Luffy, and has a lot of focus on pure offense. Luffy isn't weak, per se, but he's better rounded both in terms of Haki (is good at everything) and in his repertoire (has supplementary and defensive based moves). Furthermore, while piercing strength may not be as good as blunt force in some cases, but generally against single - human sized - opponents, it's superior.
> 
> Just because Zoro's offense is superior to Luffy's doesn't necessarily put him above Luffy. The two have been put at roughly equal ground since before the timeskip, and there are more factors to consider in a fight than who can hit the hardest. Measuring power levels in such a one dimensional way is silly.




Dude, no . Are you trying to have a debate about Zoro vs Luffy with "Zorofangirl"? , because let me tell you... That's just pointless and you're wasting your time. Nothing can go through that head.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

> Vergo was Portrayed better and is quite possibly Stronger then Sanji and Smoker.



Vergo had an upper hand against Sanji though I wouldn't say that a rematch is 100% definitively in his favor. He was portrayed ambiguously against Smoker who lost on purpose but not until he gave Vergo a good smacking. I consider Zoro to be stronger than Smoker (fuck you if you say that this is some outrageous claim. Tashigi was in utter shock and awe at a mere hint of how powerful Zoro might be and she spends all her time around Smoker) and more well suited to battle Vergo. I think when Zoro is finally fully unleashed in the coming arcs after his ridiculous portrayal so far what he does will be more impressive than beating Vergo. It all adds up perfectly well to Zoro winning over Vergo without being a mangled wreck at death's doorstep.



> Corus don't tell me your of the opinion that Zoro can beat Sanji or Smoker High diff. I thought you supported them



What the fuck? What is this utterly bizarre trend? When did beating someone with _high difficulty_ become this disrespectful, demeaning thing? Of course Zoro beats Sanji with high difficulty. The hell else would he beat him with? Zoro is more than just a second, considerably dumber Sanji who can't cook. His strength is more than trivially higher. Thus he beats him with high and not extreme difficulty. If that is being _unsupportive_ of Sanji then supporting him can go fuck itself. Having a sane view of these things, however, I don't resign myself to such an illogical stance. Zoro has never has been and never will be only trivially better than Sanji. The mentality that saying so is Zoro wanking is a plague and it's sad to see you apparently having adopted it too.


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## Kid (Aug 3, 2013)

Zoro takes this.

And how did it get to a Zoro vs Sanji thread


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## Lord Melkor (Aug 3, 2013)

Zoro high difficulty at most. According to latest SBS he specialises in COA Haki and Zoro is also endurance beast, I cannnot see Vergo tanking Zoro's top slashes.

I could Sanji winning the rematch through being more mobile and careful about exchanging kicks, though his fighting style does not seem to be optimal for Vergo.


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 3, 2013)

For me, Vergo is even stronger than Luffy by a slight notch.

He was stronger than Law, too, but was too careless at the end, PIS.

Vergo beats Luffy extreme diff, Zoro with very high diff, Sanji with high diff. 
___

Back to Zoro vs Sanji, that's not just "high difficulty", rather "very high". Zoro isn't much above him.


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## HaxHax (Aug 3, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> The mentality that saying so is Zoro wanking is a plague and it's sad to see you apparently having adopted it too.



Coming from king wanker himself.

The worst part about your posts is that whenever somebody disagrees you call them "intellectually dishonest", as a pseudo intellectual shortcut to disregarding any points that may have been presented to you.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

I call people intellectually dishonest when they are. If you feel like you're being often accused of it by me, well...



> how did it get to a Zoro vs Sanji thread



Someone accused me of wanking Zoro because I don't think he would be beaten to death's doorstep by a guy who would probably beat Sanji. The horror.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 3, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Zoro wins Extreme difficulty or Vergo wins Extreme difficulty. These are the two options. I think Zoro would probably be the winner due to fact he is a high level tank like Vergo, but the difference is he has higher attack power due to his swordsmenship. YES PEOPLE CUTTING/SLASHING>BLUNT FORCE. Thats not my opinion its fact in real life and this manga.
> 
> If anyone trys to say otherwise i will neg you to red no matter how long it takes.



Yeah I'd go with this. Don't think anyone without any bias or not deliberately wanking can claim otherwise. 

Vergo was portrayed to be stronger than Smoker and Sanji. Law struggled with him and it was the nature of his DF that allowed him to defeat him in the manner he did, Zoro does not have that luxury and will have to deal with Vergo's full body haki skills, mastery of Rokushiki and his proficiency with his bamboo stick. 

I'm edging towards Zoro perhaps ever so slightly, but I can't see it being anything other than a complete struggle for him.


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## Shinthia (Aug 3, 2013)

Vergo (or anyone) is stronger than Sanji but weaker than Zoro. Its not even debatable.


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## Dellinger (Aug 3, 2013)

Luffy and Zoro are stronger than Vergo.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

convict said:


> I personally believe Law is clearly in the same tier as Vergo and not much stronger at all. However, one could argue had he been fit the whole time he would have beaten him with low difficulty. Why? Because of the nature of his fighting style. More so than Luffy, Zoro's fighting style could give him a victory against Vergo of similar nature despite the fact that he clearly isn't stronger than Luffy.
> 
> Of course one can argue that Vergo was merely underestimating Law - a lot of factors come into play - but despite their power levels being pretty close I still do not feel Law would have an extremely difficulty bout against Vergo. Zoro isn't quite as Hax as Law but his strikes are quite lethal as well so it isn't completely stretching it to assume he would win without getting mangled himself despite being close in power.



Well If Law goes all out from the start and Vergo tries to stop it then he will be one-shot. So In that case Law would win in a stomp, but fights don't go like that under most circumstances. Law and Vergos final confrontation was a special case. 

Zoros attacks are not hax at all but yes they are lethal. If Zoro goes balls to the wall from the start aka using Ashura and his other strongest moves, then yea his injuries would be less but he would have to put in max effort to do such a thing, and again thats not how fights play out in this manga or most. 

Zoro and Vergo are going to fight for a decent bit and build up there attacks, neither of them are going to start flinging out there strongest moves.



Coruscation said:


> Vergo had an upper hand against Sanji though I wouldn't say that a rematch is 100% definitively in his favor.



As i said he was portrayed to be IMO.

He cracked Sanjis leg in one hit, which i can't recall Oda showing anyone actually doing before? Besides Sanji almost doing it to himself when he hit the PX.




> He was portrayed ambiguously against Smoker who lost on purpose but not until he gave Vergo a good smacking


.

True.

but think of it this way. 

Do you think Zoro would have to basically lose the fight on purpose, in order to grab something Sanji has? Keep in mind Vergo was still in fighting condition as well after he beat Smoker.

If Smoker was stronger then Vergo i honestly don't think he would need to do fight suicide in order to grab something from him. 

Although again i just view it as portrayal, i can see Smoker being stronger then Vergo thats not a problem. 




> I consider Zoro to be stronger than Smoker (fuck you if you say that this is some outrageous claim


.

I think Zoro>Smoker as well. 



> Tashigi was in utter shock and awe at a mere hint of how powerful Zoro might be and she spends all her time around Smoker) and more well suited to battle Vergo


. 

Agreed. 



> I think when Zoro is finally fully unleashed in the coming arcs after his ridiculous portrayal so far what he does will be more impressive than beating Vergo. *It all adds up perfectly well to Zoro winning over Vergo without being a mangled wreck at death's doorstep.*



Its certainty possible but at the moment i doubt it.




> What the fuck? What is this utterly bizarre trend? When did beating someone with _high difficulty_ become this disrespectful, demeaning thing?



You tell me.

I never said it was. 





> Of course Zoro beats Sanji with high difficulty.



I disagree, and honestly nothing you say could change my mind on that fact. 



> The hell else would he beat him with?



Extreme. Sanji is not going out like Kaku, Ohm, or Ryuma if they fight such a notion is ridiculous. After they get done fighting Zoros ass is not going anywhere he is going to be laying on the ground huffing and puffing. 



> Zoro is more than just a second, considerably dumber Sanji who can't cook. His strength is more than trivially higher.



He is stronger. Slightly stronger. 

As Oda showed us point blank and simple the *ONE TIME* he gave us something similar to power levels back in EL. 



> Thus he beats him with high and not extreme difficulty. If that is being _unsupportive_ of Sanji then supporting him can go fuck itself.



Yep thats being UN-supportive of Sanji. Oda honestly can't make there relationship and power dynamic more clear then it is. 


> Having a sane view of these things, however, I don't resign myself to such an illogical stance. Zoro has never has been and never will be only trivially better than Sanji. The mentality that saying so is Zoro wanking is a plague and it's sad to see you apparently having adopted it too.



I would say the same to you. For starters the gap between Sanji and Zoro is big enough to fit a person between it(IMO) so it is in no way Trivial. Its a gap that can be clearly seen, and its not a gap that is so close that its irrelevant. Simply put Zoro can beat people Sanji can thats a non-trivial gap corus. 

The position that Zoro could beat Sanji without being pushed to the limits makes as much sense as the Zoro wankers who think he can Draw in a fight with Luffy. 

Oda has set up a dynamic of the M3 they are all close to each other with Luffy being stronger then Zoro, and Zoro stronger then Sanji with Zoro and Sanji having the main rival relationship as its emphasized the most. 

EoS i think Zoro would beat Sanji High-diff, but EoS is a long time from now.

Anyway this is not a Zoro Vs Sanji fight and as we already established i think Vergo>Sanji/Smoker. Zoro is stronger then Sanji and Smoker sure, but strong enough that he can beat High diff someone that can defeat Sanji/Smoker...Even if i was of the opinion that Zoro could beat Smoker/Sanji High-diff, i would still say Vergo loses Extreme diff as i view him as stronger then Smoker/Sanji.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

> although again i just view it as portrayal, i can see Smoker being stronger then Vergo thats not a problem.



If it's not a problem then what the hell is the problem? You can view it however you want. I don't give a damn about your opinions. This was about how I view it and whether that's "wanking", because it sure as fucking hell isn't.



> You tell me.
> 
> I never said it was.



Yes you did. By saying that Zoro winning over Sanji with high difficulty is "Zoro wanking" you're saying exactly that. That's a completely and utterly ridiculous thing to say unless you think that high difficulty is somehow disrespectful toward the loser and can't coexist with the two being close in power.



> He is stronger. Slightly stronger.



Stop playing with words and giving non-answers. On a macro scale of course the difference is tiny. When you zoom in Zoro isn't just a slightly stronger Sanji who is dumber and worse at everything else. If Zoro beats Sanji with extreme difficulty then the difference between them is practically trivial. And it's not that.



> I disagree, and honestly nothing you say could change my mind on that fact.



I don't give a shit if you disagree or not. I'm responding to your inane accusation that Zoro beating Sanji with high difficulty is "Zoro wanking" because it isn't. I'm tired of this absurd Zoro downplaying that's popped up. Disagree as much as you want. Shut it with this "wanking" nonsense because someone doesn't agree with your personal particular view of a highly controversial subject.



> Yep thats being UN-supportive of Sanji.



No, it's just you being an idiot.



> For starters the gap between Sanji and Zoro is big enough to fit a person between it(IMO) so it is in no way Trivial. Its a gap that can be clearly seen, and its not a gap that is so close that its irrelevant.



Then Zoro is not going to have extreme difficulty beating him.



> Oda showed us point blank and simple the one time he gave us something similar to power levels back in EL.



Zoro and Sanji are not Kaku and Jyabura. Enies Lobby is not the only arc in the series. 



> The position that Zoro could beat Sanji without being pushed to the limits makes as much sense as the Zoro wankers who think he can Draw in a fight with Luffy.



So let's get this straight... Zoro absolutely has to be pushed to his limit and extreme difficulty by Sanji, Zoro can't possibly be on par with Luffy and disagreeing with either of these things, not seeing it exactly the same as you, is just being a Zoro wanker. What the hell is with this obnoxious self-righteousness? You no longer have a shred of impartiality left to offer on this subject as far as I'm concerned. What a sad development.



> Luffy being stronger then Zoro, and Zoro stronger then Sanji with Zoro and Sanji having the main rival relationship as its emphasized the most.



No, Luffy and Zoro's dynamic of equality is stronger and more serious throughout the series. You can disagree if you want. But quit this "Zoro wanking" garbage. That's the root of all this. Both positions are legitimate enough.



> Anyway this is not a Zoro Vs Sanji fight



You were the one who brought it up and started making ridiculous accusations.


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## Admiral Marco (Aug 3, 2013)

Zoro equals Luffy as confirmed by Oda, Luffy > Vergo > Sanji so Zoro > Vergo > Sanji


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> If it's not a problem then what the hell is the problem? You can view it however you want. I don't give a damn about your opinions. This was about how I view it and whether that's "wanking", because it sure as fucking hell isn't.



I was unaware there was a Problem. Unless a difference of Opinion is a problem now. 

No due you don't think its wanking. Who thinks they are wanking someone(trolls/people who troll aside). Obviously i view it as wanking. 





> Yes you did. By saying that Zoro winning over Sanji with high difficulty is "Zoro wanking" you're saying exactly that. That's a completely and utterly ridiculous thing to say unless you think that high difficulty is somehow disrespectful toward the loser and can't coexist with the two being close in power.



My definition of Wanking is Putting someone on a level they are not. In this case your opinion of where Zoro stands. 

High diff in of it self is not something i have a problem with. 



> Stop playing with words and giving non-answers.



Not playing with words thats a fact.

1. Zoro is stronger.

2. He is Stronger by no large amount aka slightly. 

Manga supports both these things. 



> On a macro scale of course the difference is tiny.



No on any scale it is. 



> When you zoom in Zoro isn't just a slightly stronger Sanji who is dumber and worse at everything else.



Thats what he is. Same with Luffy, the two idiots that can do nothing but fight and lead others and are the strongest of the crew. 



> If Zoro beats Sanji with extreme difficulty then the difference between them *is practically trivial*. And it's not that.



I disagree.



> I don't give a shit if you disagree or not.



Like wise. 



> I'm responding to your inane accusation that Zoro beating Sanji with high difficulty is "Zoro wanking" because it isn't.



It is.



> I'm tired of this absurd Zoro downplaying that's popped up.




I'm tired of this absurd Sanji downplaying and Zoro wanking that has only gotten worse since i joined. 



> Disagree as much as you want. Shut it with this "wanking" nonsense because someone doesn't agree with your personal particular view of a highly controversial subject.



Its wanking. 

Or if the word wank rustles your jimmies to much.

Overestimation. 



> No, it's just you being an idiot.



Coming from the guy that says Zoro can beat Sanji high diff. 



> Then Zoro is not going to have extreme difficulty beating him


.

Yes he is. 





> Zoro and Sanji are not Kaku and Jyabura. Enies Lobby is not the only arc in the series.



But it is the only arc where Oda gives us concrete numbers to show us how strong the crew is in relation to each other, and it supports the notion that Zoro and Sanji are extremely, extremely close in strength. 




> So let's get this straight... Zoro absolutely has to be pushed to his limit and extreme difficulty by Sanji,



I am not Oda so no. Zoro does not absolutely have push to his limits to beat Sanji.

If in the future if Zoro proves to me that he can beat Sanji high diff, i wont be bitching around in the forums i honestly don't care. 

I just don't think the current evidence supports such a notion strong enough to support it. 



> Zoro can't possibly be on par with Luffy



I am not Oda so no its possible, but i highly, highly, highly, highly doubt it. 



> and disagreeing with either of these things, not seeing it exactly the same as you, is just being a Zoro wanker.



Yes it is.

This manga is very long and the focus has been the straw hat crew. There have been a lot of fights, and a crap ton of interaction. 

This is not a topic like Vista Vs DD or Tashigi Vs Brook where there Max power compared to each other is hard to identify due to lack of feats and concrete portrayal. This is Sanji Vs Zoro and its about as clear if not more so then Franky being the 4 strongest in the crew. 

Wanking is not limited to gross overestimation like saying Zoro low diff Sanji or some crap. When the evidence is clear suggesting otherwise is wank in my books. Saying Luffy has extreme diff with Sanji would be Wank, even though they are close in strength, saying Vista midd diff DD is not wank. I disagree with that notion, but such a position is supported and can easily be the case. 



> What the hell is with this obnoxious self-righteousness?



I am pretty Obnoxious and Self-righteous did you now just notice this?



> You no longer have a shred of impartiality left to offer on this subject as far as I'm concerned. What a sad development.




*Spoiler*: __ 












> No, Luffy and Zoro's dynamic of equality is stronger and more serious throughout the series.



Thats nice, but two things.

1. Its not.

2. Its irrelevant. 

I am already of the opinion that Luffy beats Zoro with extreme difficulty. Which is the only thing there dynamic suggests. 

Luffy>Zoro>Sanji.

Luffy wins Extreme against Zoro, and high against Sanji. 

Zoro loses to Luffy Extreme, and wins against Sanji with Extreme. 

Zoro is luffys right hand, and Sanji his Left. The right and left hand are super close to each other, just the right is closer to the Head(Luffy)



> You can disagree if you want. But quit this "Zoro wanking" garbage. That's the root of all this. *Both positions are legitimate enough*.



NOPE.


> You were the one who brought it up and started making ridiculous accusations.



Indeed and i brought it up cause it has relevance in this fight which if you read the last part of my post i went into how the Sanji Vs Zoro *discussion in terms of if its high or extreme diff is irrelevant to my position. *

Even if Sanji would lose to Zoro high-diff, i would still say Vergo loses Extreme difficulty. Cause Vergo>Sanji not Vergo=Sanji.

Edit: Kizaru sums this up nicely. 



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Yeah I'd go with this. Don't think anyone without any bias or not deliberately wanking can claim otherwise.
> 
> Vergo was portrayed to be stronger than Smoker and Sanji. Law struggled with him and it was the nature of his DF that allowed him to defeat him in the manner he did, Zoro does not have that luxury and will have to deal with Vergo's full body haki skills, mastery of Rokushiki and his proficiency with his bamboo stick.
> 
> I'm edging towards Zoro perhaps ever so slightly, but I can't see it being anything other than a complete struggle for him.



Think its clear Corus we are not going to agree even a tiny bit on any of this. 

So i wager we end this. I will read your response to my post if you give one but i won't be responding back(Most likely)


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## Admiral Marco (Aug 3, 2013)

You must be retarded if you actually believe Zoro would be in a life or death situation if he fought Sanji
Zoro wins without pulling out his strongest moves AKA high diff
All he has to do is overpower Sanji in each clash or just cut his legs off, not too hard for Zoro to win.


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## Shinthia (Aug 3, 2013)

how the hell i have a link in "Vergo" word in my earlier post ? i did not do that at all. who is hacking me ?


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## jNdee~ (Aug 3, 2013)

Clean hit...


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## Typhon (Aug 3, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Vergo had an upper hand against Sanji though I wouldn't say that a rematch is 100% definitively in his favor. He was portrayed ambiguously against Smoker who lost on purpose but not until he gave Vergo a good smacking. I consider Zoro to be stronger than Smoker (fuck you if you say that this is some outrageous claim. Tashigi was in utter shock and awe at a mere hint of how powerful Zoro might be and she spends all her time around Smoker) and more well suited to battle Vergo. I think when Zoro is finally fully unleashed in the coming arcs after his ridiculous portrayal so far what he does will be more impressive than beating Vergo. It all adds up perfectly well to Zoro winning over Vergo without being a mangled wreck at death's doorstep.
> 
> 
> 
> What the fuck? What is this utterly bizarre trend? When did beating someone with _high difficulty_ become this disrespectful, demeaning thing? Of course Zoro beats Sanji with high difficulty. The hell else would he beat him with? Zoro is more than just a second, considerably dumber Sanji who can't cook. His strength is more than trivially higher.* Thus he beats him with high and not extreme difficulty*. If that is being _unsupportive_ of Sanji then supporting him can go fuck itself. *Having a sane view of these things*, however, I don't resign myself to such an illogical stance. Zoro has never has been and never will be only trivially better than Sanji. The mentality that saying so is Zoro wanking is a plague and it's sad to see you apparently having adopted it too.


 Come on now.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

Yes, Zoro is not only trivially stronger than Sanji. Such horror and insanity. Unless one thinks Sanji 100% brings Zoro to the brink of death it is heavily disrespecting and selling him short. No other outcome but extreme difficulty is sane. And Zoro is the one being wanked?



> I was unaware there was a Problem.



The "problem" is that you think it is "wanking" Zoro to think he could beat Vergo without being at the brink of death. That's why you responded in the first place.



> My definition of Wanking is Putting someone on a level they are not.



By that "definition" anything anyone disagrees with is wanking. Wanking refers to plainly unreasonable opinions that can be concretely shown to fly in the face of the manga.



> Not playing with words thats a fact.
> 
> 1. Zoro is stronger.
> 
> 2. He is Stronger by no large amount aka slightly.



Yes it is and this is yet another. There are things that lie in between "large" and "slight". You can be stronger than someone without either being much stronger or being pushed to the limit and brink of death by them. Being stronger by a large amount would result in mid difficulty or less. Being stronger by a small amount but still enough to be meaningful would result in high difficulty. Being stronger by such a small amount it's virtually trivial would result in extreme difficulty.



> Thats what he is.



No he really isn't. Saying that is -actually- disrespectful toward Zoro. He trains his ass off constantly, fights tougher enemies, is pushed further in battles, gains more power-ups, has greater responsibility on his shoulders in the crew and can't do anything but fight. Yet for all that he is nothing but an extremely marginally stronger Sanji who is worse at everything except fighting? To disagree with that is wanking? That's a completely fucking idiotic opinion.



> I disagree.



Then your definition of extreme difficulty is screwed up. The entire point of "extreme" is that it refers to fights between enemies ludicrously close in power.



> But it is the only arc where Oda gives us concrete numbers to show us how strong the crew is in relation to each other, and it supports the notion that Zoro and Sanji are extremely, extremely close in strength.



For the second time Zoro and Sanji are not Kaku and Jyabura. For the second time just because it gives numbers doesn't mean it's the only arc that matters. You're the one being colossally biased by ignoring everything else.



> I am not Oda so no. Zoro does not absolutely have push to his limits to beat Sanji.



Then don't accuse people who don't think he would of unreasonable wanking because you have a personal disagreement with it. Doing so is just being an idiot.



> When the evidence is clear suggesting otherwise is wank in my books.



The evidence doesn't clearly suggest otherwise. There is no clear evidence that Zoro would be pushed to the brink of death and absolute limits to defeat Sanji. Absolutely none at any point ever. 



> Thats nice, but two things.
> 
> 1. Its not.



Stating your opinions as fact. Were you or were you not Oda?



> NOPE.



Thanks for showing you don't give crap about reasoned argument but only pushing your own opinions around and calling people who disagree wankers.


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

People think Zoro is at death's door against Vergo, but then think Sanji solos a team of Caesar Clown, ES Hody, and Oz w/ Moria's control.

Simply because Sanji was at a major disadvantage against the man, without bothering to think of why Zoro isn't.

This place, man. It's all about making sure your favorite characters aren't disrespected - it has nothing to do with accuracy or logic.

Oh, and Zoro would defeat Sanji high-diff. Terrible matchup for Sanji.

You guys realize there will be opponents that Sanji has a better time of fighting than Zoro, right? Matchups mean everything.


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## Shinthia (Aug 3, 2013)

Law said:


> *This place, man. It's all about making sure your favorite characters aren't disrespected - it has nothing to do with accuracy or logic.*
> 
> .



Word of truth.


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## Purple Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

Zoro takes a dump on Sanji's head. 

/thread


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## Typhon (Aug 3, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Yes, Zoro is not only trivially stronger than Sanji. Such horror and insanity. Unless one thinks Sanji 100% brings Zoro to the brink of death it is heavily disrespecting and selling him short. No other outcome but extreme difficulty is sane. And Zoro is the one being wanked?



Yes Zoro is being wanked. When people say Zoro is closer to Luffy then he is to Sanji even though they've been paired together throughout this entire manga is indeed wanking. Saying Zoro would not be in serious need of surgery after fighting Sanji is disrespectful, not the other way around.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

No. Zoro has been compared and paired with Luffy a ton of times throughout the manga as well. I can just as easily show a huge list of powerful Luffy~Zoro moments as you can show one of Zoro and Sanji's rivalry moments. It's a matter of opinion which ones are stronger on the whole, and although I strongly think that it's the former, it's not wanking Sanji to believe that he and Zoro are closer. I will never say that even though I disagree quite strongly. But when you start parading around your opinions of how ultra-super-close they are and how anything but agreeing that it's a brink of death maximal difficulty fight is fanboyish wanking as fact? Then you're being stupid. End of story.


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## God Movement (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm going with Vergo. Either that or Zoro wins by the skin of his teeth.


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## Mihawk (Aug 3, 2013)

Zoro high diff.

I think that between Smoker & Sanji, it could go either ways, at extreme difficulty.
Vergo & Sanji? Probably Vergo Extreme difficulty
Vergo & Smoker? Probably Vergo Extreme difficulty.
Zoro high diffs Smoker, high diffs Sanji, and most likely high diffs Vergo, only having a bit of a harder time then he would against Sanji or Smoker.

Matchups play a role here, and whether Zoro's cutting power gives him an edge, or Vergo's tanking ability does, is summed up nicely by Atlantic Storm.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

Law didn't really struggle with him? Vergo was cheap shotting at Law's heart like it was nothing, squeezing it everytime he got a chance to do it. Law's powers correlate with his Stamina, so Laws slash wasn't as good as it could have been. Regardless Vergo wasn't even fighting Smoker as normally as he could have, and still giving Vergo a high diff fight. I feel like if Smoker fought the way he normally does he would have won. As for Sanji, he was only stalling, Sanji would have lost if he fought normally, but by the skin of his teeth,which leads me to belive Zoro wins this by the skin of his.


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

I don't think Smoker can beat Vergo currently.

I also don't think Smoker can beat Luffy at the moment, unless Luffy stays in base.

From the portrayal I saw, Smoker has to re-determine himself if he wants to keep in stride with Luffy. Right now, I see him on equal terms with Sanji, and only _truly_ stronger than Franky because of the haki/logia barrier.

I think Zoro beats Vergo high/extreme diff, a slightly easier fight for him than Daz Bones was in Arabasta, so while an evenly matched and very hard fight, he won't be on the brink of death. More like Him v Kaku.
I think Zoro beats Smoker mid diff. While Law is more powerful than Zoro, and would take him out, Zoro has an easier time with Smoker than Law did.

In both cases, his opponent doesn't have a sword, but has a weapon that they can clash/deflect with, and both are brute force fighters, neither of which are too fast for Zoro. 

And just to cover my bases, no character I've mentioned in this post can solo Doffy currently.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

I agree, Smokers showings in the PH made me think he wasn't as strong as Law or Luffy.


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## trance (Aug 3, 2013)

*Sigh* This thread... 

Luffy beats Vergo high difficulty...
Zoro and Vergo can go either way...leaning toward Zoro
Luffy beats Zoro high difficulty...
Vergo/Zoro beats Smoker high difficulty...
Zoro beats Sanji high difficulty...
Smoker and Sanji can go either way...leaning toward Smoker...
Law can beat everyone ranging from mid difficulty to high-extreme difficulty...

Zoro is as far from Luffy as Sanji is as far from him...

Luffy > Zoro > Sanji

In power levels...

Luffy- 10,000
Zoro- 9,000
Sanji- 8,000


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

B-but...Zoro's at least 9001!!!!!!!!1


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

Law you should see the shit people are pulling when Oda said Sanji is the better one at CoO. All those Zoro fans in denial.


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## Halcyon (Aug 3, 2013)

Damn, Zoro isn't over 9000


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> *Yes, Zoro is not only trivially stronger than Sanji. Such horror and insanity.* Unless one thinks Sanji 100% brings Zoro to the brink of death it is heavily disrespecting and selling him short. No other outcome but extreme difficulty is sane. And Zoro is the one being wanked?



I don't think the Gap between them is Trivial but you are free to think otherwise. 

To the non-bolded part for the most part yep.



> The "problem" is that you think it is "wanking" Zoro to think he could beat Vergo without being at the brink of death. That's why you responded in the first place.



I responded to understand your reasoning for what you said, which i now know.




> By that "definition" anything anyone disagrees with is wanking.



No only things that are clear in the manga. As i explained later in my post. 

For example saying Vista beats DD i disagree heavily, but i would not call that wanking. 

Saying Nami beats Chopper, again disagree heavily, but now thats wanking nami. 



> Wanking refers to plainly unreasonable opinions that can be concretely shown to fly in the face of the manga.



Yes IMO saying Zoro beats Sanji high diff is a big spit in the face of Sanji and of course the manga as well. 

As i said before its about as unreasonable as saying Zoro would draw with Luffy, and clearer then Franky is the 4 strongest straw-hat.



> Yes it is and this is yet another. There are things that lie in between "large" and "slight". You can be stronger than someone without either being much stronger or being pushed to the limit and brink of death by them. Being stronger by a large amount would result in mid difficulty or less. Being stronger by a small amount but still enough to be meaningful would result in high difficulty. Being stronger by such a small amount it's virtually trivial would result in extreme difficulty.



I view High as Arlong Vs Luffy, or Zoro/Sanji vs Kaku/Jyabura.

I believe Sanji would give Zoro a significantly harder fight aka Extreme difficulty. 

He won't be about to die if he does not get medical treatment, but he will be to hurt to move around for a good bit. 




> No he really isn't. Saying that is -actually- disrespectful toward Zoro. He trains his ass off constantly, fights tougher enemies, is pushed further in battles, gains more power-ups, has greater responsibility on his shoulders in the crew and can't do anything but fight. Yet for all that he is nothing but an extremely marginally stronger Sanji who is worse at everything except fighting? To disagree with that is wanking? That's a completely fucking idiotic opinion.



Same could be said for Luffy in relation to Zoro. The Captain, the Future Pirate King,* the dude that sacrifices his god dame life span in order to protect his crew.* The fact remains he is still only slightly stronger then Zoro despite that. 

Sanjis cooking or Intelligence have crap to do with his power scheme in relation to everyone else in the crew and he trains like hell as well. Do you think Oda made Sanji weaker then Zoro, because Sanji can cook and is smart LMAO. 




> Then your definition of extreme difficulty is screwed up. The entire point of "extreme" is that it refers to fights between enemies ludicrously close in power.



Which Zoro and Sanji are. 




> For the second time Zoro and Sanji are not Kaku and Jyabura. For the second time just because it gives numbers doesn't mean it's the only arc that matters. You're the one being colossally biased by ignoring everything else.



1. Never said they were Kaku and Jyabura.

2. Never said it was the only arc that matters. If i did please put it in quotes. 



> Then don't accuse people who don't think he would of unreasonable wanking because you have a personal disagreement with it. Doing so is just being an idiot.



With that Logic i guess nobody ever wanks anybody.



> The evidence doesn't clearly suggest otherwise. There is no clear evidence that Zoro would be pushed to the brink of death and absolute limits to defeat Sanji. Absolutely none at any point ever.




The evidence suggests that Zoro would have to be pushed to his limits and use every bit of skill and strength at his call same with Luffy vs Zoro for most parts in this manga.

 Now if Sanji will deal enough damage back to Zoro that puts him to the point that he is half dead perhaps not, but Effort is the main thing that matters not the injuries. 




> Stating your opinions as fact. Were you or were you not Oda?




I'm his twin brother. I know quite a few things. 




> Thanks for showing you don't give crap about reasoned argument but only pushing your own opinions around and calling people who disagree wankers.



Your welcome.


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## Kanki (Aug 3, 2013)

Omnation said:


> Yes Zoro is being wanked. When people say Zoro is closer to Luffy then he is to Sanji even though they've been paired together throughout this entire manga is indeed wanking. Saying Zoro would not be in serious need of surgery after fighting Sanji is disrespectful, not the other way around.



It's not wanking at all. There's evidence to back up both sides of the argument. This 'rivalry' is as much a gag as anything else anyway.

For the record I'm of the belief that there's an equal amount of distance between Zoro/Luffy and Zoro/Sanji and can debate it all day (I often change my mind), but people are too eager to pull out the wank card on anything they disagree with.

When I first began posting here it was obvious that there was a few people who wanked Mihawk and as a result, even more haters popped up and actually out numbered the tards. The same thing is now happening with Zoro. He's had a few wankers (though most are trolls anyway) and now as a result any time someone says anything remotely positive about him, they're quickly called a 'Zolo wanker'. 

Saying Zoro only beats Sanji with high diff, isn't wank at all. Even though I disagree with it. Likewise if someone said Luffy beats Zoro with high diff, I wouldn't consider them a Luffy-tard or Zoro-hater. 

Kinda went OT there, but just thought I'd vent lol.


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Law you should see the shit people are pulling when Oda said Sanji is the better one at CoO. All those Zoro fans in denial.



I don't see how that changes anything. You realize you're talking to someone articulate, intelligent, and well-versed in everything to do with One Piece who without hesitation or doubt believes Zoro is closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji?

Not by _a lot_, but enough to notice. Using Trance's imaginary and arbitrary number system, I'd say it's more like 10k/9.2k/8k.

Which will set fire to a bunch of powder-kegs in the hearts of confused cigarette lovers, and/or, hopeless romantic guys who enjoy cooking, but at no point in that paragraph did I imply that Sanji was weaker overall as a character or less valuable as a Strawhat than Zoro.

In fact, although my judgment isn't clouded enough to think they're equal in a fight, I firmly believe Sanji to be more valuable to the crew than Zoro is overall. All points of reference included and added up, Sanji has more going for him. Being close to Zoro in fighting ability..._not a prerequisite_.

There are two things Zoro is good at:

1) Fighting
2) Promoting respect for the Captain within the ranks when it truly matters (since he is clearly the first-mate...suck on it, wankers)

Sanji is also very, very good at fighting. He feeds the crew, he doesn't get lost walking down a straight tunnel, he is extremely clever when things get serious and can come up with plans Zoro never could. He's the kind of guy who will sneak around behind enemy lines to flip the switch to open the castle gate while the big dumb brute is still only halfway to the gate as he just decided to fight his way there through a sea of enemies.

On paper, Zoro is much more replaceable than Sanji.

So why...why do Sanji fans feel so threatened when people say Zoro is quite a bit stronger? It's like...all Zoro fucking has, and Sanji fans try and take it from him, all the while saying it's them who are getting the raw deal from fans. Pfft.

Just because they have an intense sibling rivalry doesn't mean they're equal. If they fought bloodlusted, the crew would be searching for a new cook, and we'd be waiting for Zoro's next power-up as he sleeps to heal his broken ribs/arm/jaw etc. End of.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

Its ok to change your mind. I sometimes have one opinion, then change it after a debate. Cause I see better points my opposition made.


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## trance (Aug 3, 2013)

@Law

I think you mean my extraordinarily creative and ingenious ranking system.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

Law said:


> I don't think Smoker can beat Vergo currently.
> 
> I also don't think Smoker can beat Luffy at the moment, unless Luffy stays in base.
> 
> ...



Since when Did franky get anywhere close to Sanji level like at all.

I ask that cause you said smoker is only truly stronger then Franky cause of haki and logia? I assure you take away Zoros swords and haki, take away Sanjis DJ and haki, take away Smokers haki and logia intan. Franky is still going to get his ass kicked by any of them, he is a crap ton weaker then the M3 and Smoker.

Franky got fucked up by a quick jab in the chest by Rob Lucci, he is plain and simply fodder to people around M3 level, and since the growth rate of franky is most assuredly not greater then Sanjis or Smokers for that matter that fact has not changed.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

He he won't.you can't take away two main powers from them, and expect them to beat Franky.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

^ um.....yes.

Pre-skip Base Sanji beats the living crap out of franky. That's not going to change anytime soon


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

No,preskip base Sanji can't beat post skip Franky.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

Oh you guys are arguing preskip.

Who gives a fuck?


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Its ok to change your mind. I sometimes have one opinion, then change it after a debate. Cause I see better points my opposition made.



Was this directed at me?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

^^no I'm saying Pre-skip Base Sanji>Pre-skip Franky.

And  post Skip base Sanji>Post Skip Franky.

Unless franky has a higher growth rate then Sanji, which he does not then nothing's changed.


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ^^no I'm saying Pre-skip Base Sanji>Pre-skip Franky.
> 
> And  post Skip base Sanji>Post Skip Franky.
> 
> Unless franky has a higher growth rate then Sanji, which he does not then nothing's changed.



Who's saying differently?

Do you have the ability to think of each fight separately, rather than just checking where characters are on your tier list to decide who wins?

Is that something your brain has the ability to do? Be fucking honest now.

If Franky had haki, the way Smoker is currently being portrayed, he has a very valid chance of defeating him. He's much stronger physically than Smoker is, and thus far has really not been shown to struggle with anyone's speed when he's not in a giant tank.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

Law said:


> Who's saying differently?



You are.

You basically said you view Smoker and Sanji as near equals, and then go on to say that if Smoker did not have his logia hax and haki Franky would be stronger. Which regardless of match-ups in terms of skill sets would still suggest franky is decently close to *Base Sanji *which he is not at all. 

What am i missing here. 



> Do you have the ability to think of each fight separately



If your trying to play the match-up card this is not HxH, and Smoker and Sanjis fighting style is not that different. They are both very fast and mobile and use that to slowly beat down the opponent, the only main difference between the two is that Smoker is more blunt force, and Sanji more whatever you call fire. 

Regardless match-ups are only relevant when people are close to each other in strength. To which Franky is not.

Or if there is a Complete mismatch like Enel vs Luffy. Or someone without haki agasint a logia 

To answer your question yes.


> rather than just checking where characters are on your tier list to decide who wins?



I did no checking of any tier list just did a mental recollection of the characters feats. 

Smoker does not require haki or his logia hax to beat Franky.

For starters Franky does not even have the feats to suggest he is fast enough to even hit Smoker with any of his attacks. 


> Is that something your brain has the ability to do? Be fucking honest now.



Yep



> If Franky had haki, the way Smoker is currently being portrayed, he has a very valid chance of defeating him. He's much stronger physically than Smoker is, and thus far has really not been shown to struggle with anyone's speed when he's not in a giant tank



Then you need to re-read PH. 

Smoker is still portrayed as M3 level. Just that he is weaker then Law by no tiny amount. You don't need to even be on Law level in order to defeat franky with little trouble. 

Much Stronger Physically then smoker dah hell. What feats are these. Smoker clashed equally with Vergo, frankys strength feats dont even come close. 

Smoker is fast and mobile enough to pressure Vergo and Law in CqC, and deal with a teleporting Law. Reacting to baby-5, Buffalo, and the Squid dude is hardly speed feats worth praising.


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## Kanki (Aug 3, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Unless franky has a higher growth rate then Sanji, which he does not then nothing's changed.



Growth rate is such an over-used term on here IMO. Bart is only a rookie yet effectively VA level - he'd have stomped pre-skip Luffy so technically his growth rate could have been faster up to this point. That doesn't mean Luffy doesn't have more potential though, because he can continue to grow even after Bart has peaked.

But yeah....Sanji is, was and will always be on another level to Franky.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Growth rate is such an over-used term on here IMO. Bart is only a rookie yet effectively VA level - he'd have stomped pre-skip Luffy so technically his growth rate could have been faster up to this point. That doesn't mean Luffy doesn't have more potential though, because he can continue to grow even after Bart has peaked.
> 
> But yeah....Sanji is, was and will always be on another level to Franky.



We don't know how Old bart is and what he has been doing with his life so its hard to rate him. We just know he became big a year ago, and as far as we know Luffy 1 year ago could also beat the crap out of Maynard. 

Although i see your point and agree with it, but within the Straw-hats the dynamic is clear. The M3 have the highest Potential and if anybody has the highest growth rate its them.

Even if Franky=Sanji in Potential and Growth the gap between them for the most part would still be huge as they both were training/improving themselves these last two years. At 200 percent effort.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

For all we know Bartolomeo could have been trained by a NW monster for years before he set off. We don't really know how he got here. His DF fruit is also broken. If used right Barriers could be the most broken fruit we donht know.


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## trance (Aug 3, 2013)

All Super Rookies that have a DF have the potential to be very broken (i.e. Law's, Kid's, Apoo's, Bonney's etc.)


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## SsjAzn (Aug 4, 2013)

Vergo with high difficulty.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Aug 4, 2013)

Vergo's problem is that in the places where he shines. *Hitting hard/taking hits" Zoro just does it much brighter. 
In that case you could easily see how he would fall to Zoro's superior CQC, which is a given. Superior strength. *unlike Sanji he's going to be pushing Vergo back instead of the other way around* And with t he latest news of being a haki heavy fighter no previous unknowns are part of the equations. Before you could make that argument that Zoro could have trouble penetrating Vergo's full hardening mode which was a weak argument in the first place because Sanji who's considerably weaker than Zoro could and Smoker who should be closer to Zoro actually got some good hits. And this is not taking Zoro's deadliness with the swords into account. 

So Zoro clearly takes the win with Kaku difficulty. and any thought to the contrary is nothing but Sanji wankers doing damage control because Sanji is unable to beat a guy Zoro can. 
Which is nothing new because Sanji couldn't beat Mr.1, Ohm or Kaku.


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## convict (Aug 4, 2013)

^Sanji definitely wouldn't beat Mr. 1 or Ohm but with DJ he has a decent shot against Kaku.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Aug 4, 2013)

convict said:


> ^Sanji definitely wouldn't beat Mr. 1 or Ohm but with DJ he has a decent shot against Kaku.


True, it's a matter of how quick he gets it out and how he goes about using it.  Kaku is not stupid enough to get hit twice by diable jambe. Unlike Jyabura he likes to counter and dodge. 
But you need to take in account that Kaku would completely overwhelm Sanji in pure battle. As he doesn't have the physical strength to create an opening on the guy, his only shot is diable jambe. And we know that Sanji wouldn't take a rain of rankyaku as good as Zoro nor is he as good when it comes to taking a Bigan.
And then there is the fact that Kaku too has an ace under his sleeve. And Unlike Diable Jambe this one is sure to end the game if he pulls it out. *Amane dechi* *I'm assuming we're talking about the final and improve version*


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## trance (Aug 4, 2013)

^Lol, Sanji destroys Mr. 1, Ohm and Kaku at the same time...

Whatever you're smoking, gimme some...


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## Dunno (Aug 4, 2013)

Trance said:


> ^Lol, Sanji destroys Mr. 1, Ohm and Kaku at the same time...
> 
> Whatever you're smoking, gimme some...



I believe they are talking about Sanji as he was at the time Zoro fought those guys, they're not talking about current Sanji.


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## Thebest1 (Aug 4, 2013)

LOL but still, for someone to think that Sanji can't beat Kaku? It's pretty obvious that EL Sanji would have, but as far as Mr. 1, I dont think that he would have beat him at the time. Ohm's is anyones guess, IMO Sanji would have barely won.


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## trance (Aug 4, 2013)

Dunno said:


> I believe they are talking about Sanji as he was at the time Zoro fought those guys, they're not talking about current Sanji.



Let's ask them...


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## convict (Aug 4, 2013)

Trance said:


> Let's ask them...



Good God. Of course we were.


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## Shinthia (Aug 4, 2013)

Both Luffy and Sanji would have lost to Mr. 1 because of the match ups and no haki.

But, Ohm and Kaku cant beat Sanji/Luffy.


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## dredalus (Aug 4, 2013)

well considering sanji barely did any damage while getting two cheap shots on vergo(vergo wasn't looking or didn't bother dodging the attack=cheap shots).and then got his leg broken in one clash.he looked inferior to vergo  no matter how you twist things. 

now I believe  zoro has better coo/coa  than sanji so he stands a much better chance against vergo,and since the ts zoro has been looking very close to luffy who is no doubt above vergo, i'll give it to zoro high/extreme diff. as for sanji, when we see him going all out he may be able to take down  guys like vergo/jinbei,  but right now? nope.


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## Halcyon (Aug 4, 2013)

Didn't Zoro have to beat Ohm with a ranged attack.. that he developed on Skypiea?

I don't doubt that Sanji could beat Kaku, because neither Sanji nor Zoro were near death in their CP9 fights, but not Mr. 1.

And I'm unsure about Ohm.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 4, 2013)

Mr.1 beats Luffy and Sanji. Terrible match-up for both.

Ohm beats Sanji another bad match-up.  Luffy wins I guess about the same diffculty as Zoro.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 5, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Vergo's problem is that in the places where he shines. *Hitting hard/taking hits" Zoro just does it much brighter.



If you look at it from a very shallow dimension, yes. But if you analyze the comparison on another level, it's not really the same thing. Both hit hard, yes, but so does everybody in the New World; the difference is the way they dish out damage. Vergo focuses on dishing out blunt force damage and just battering the opponent with his Haki enhanced bamboo, whereas Zoro goes straight for the kill with powerful slashes. Another thing is that Zoro also has the range advantage, since Vergo seems to be strictly restricted to close quarters combat.

In regards to durability, it's the same issue as above. Vergo just doesn't get hurt, while Zoro does get damaged, but is able to just endure it. We don't know the true depths of Vergo's endurance since he had to fight Law of all people (who kind of just laughs at the idea of physical durability), but based on the fact he seems very reliant on his Haki protecting him, it's probably quite likely he can't take damage as well as Zoro can.

Basically: Vergo is over-reliant on Haki and has no feats without it, meanwhile Zoro just has ridiculous 'base' feats (in the attack power and durability departments) that can be further enhanced via Haki. What you said about Zoro being superior is true, but I just felt like nitpicking your point a bit.

About the so called 'Sanj damage control' thing, I don't really see the point in that. Sanji may not have 'defeated' Vergo, but there were important circumstances during that: it wasn't an optimal situation for a fight, and Vergo wasn't Sanji's opponent to begin with. He was Law's. Just because Zoro can defeat Vergo doesn't necessarily place him at a higher level than Sanji; it just means Zoro works better as an opponent against him. It's confirmed he has superior offense, and that's really what's important against an opponent with a defense like Vergo's. Sanji may be able to dodge, but that's not going to mean anything if he can't hurt him. The issue with Sanji versus Vergo is a difference in abilities, and Sanji not being well tailoured to fight him, not a difference in power. Sanji has always been depicted as being on the same level as Zoro.


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## Etherborn (Aug 5, 2013)

Out of Zoro's opponents thus far, Sanji at the time would have lost to Mr. 1 and Ohm.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Aug 5, 2013)

I reckon Zorro can probably take him. Sanji was a better fighter than base Vergo, so I don't see why Zorro shouldn't be more skilled with a weapon,


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 5, 2013)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I reckon Zorro can probably take him. Sanji was a better fighter than base Vergo, so I don't see why Zorro shouldn't be more skilled with a weapon,



Base Vergo?
CoA covered Vergo = Transformed Vergo?


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## TrolonoaZoro (Aug 5, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> If you look at it from a very shallow dimension, yes. But if you analyze the comparison on another level, it's not really the same thing. Both hit hard, yes, but so does everybody in the New World; the difference is the way they dish out damage. Vergo focuses on dishing out blunt force damage and just battering the opponent with his Haki enhanced bamboo, whereas Zoro goes straight for the kill with powerful slashes. Another thing is that Zoro also has the range advantage, since Vergo seems to be strictly restricted to close quarters combat.


 Mnh, but Zoro being more lethal fits with my so called  shallow assertion of their different fighting style doesn't it? Although I was mostly looking at their strength based hits. Or Zoro's attack that aren't very much based on the slash but the power behind it. So his lethality is nothing but a plus in Zoro's side.




> In regards to durability, it's the same issue as above. Vergo just doesn't get hurt, while Zoro does get damaged, but is able to just endure it. We don't know the true depths of Vergo's endurance since he had to fight Law of all people (who kind of just laughs at the idea of physical durability), but based on the fact he seems very reliant on his Haki protecting him, it's probably quite likely he can't take damage as well as Zoro can.


 Again I'm aware of that. Who do you think is going to be able to take more damage from the other? The guy who's focus on his hard defense which based on what we know of Zoro could be penetrated with mild difficulty, or the dude who's ability to take attacks was beyond ridiculous even pre time skip? and mostly against attacks that are known for how lethal they can be. *sword slashes* so is my assessment incorrect? 



> Basically: Vergo is over-reliant on Haki and has no feats without it, meanwhile Zoro just has ridiculous 'base' feats (in the attack power and durability departments) that can be further enhanced via Haki. What you said about Zoro being superior is true, but I just felt like nitpicking your point a bit.


 Oh, so you just wanted to nit pick. I suppose I don't have to go along with the rest of this post then? 



> About the so called 'Sanj damage control' thing, I don't really see the point in that. Sanji may not have 'defeated' Vergo, but there were important circumstances during that: it wasn't an optimal situation for a fight, and Vergo wasn't Sanji's opponent to begin with. He was Law's. Just because Zoro can defeat Vergo doesn't necessarily place him at a higher level than Sanji; it just means Zoro works better as an opponent against him. It's confirmed he has superior offense, and that's really what's important against an opponent with a defense like Vergo's. Sanji may be able to dodge, but that's not going to mean anything if he can't hurt him. The issue with Sanji versus Vergo is a difference in abilities, and Sanji not being well tailoured to fight him, not a difference in power. Sanji has always been depicted as being on the same level as Zoro.


Oh wait a minute, I do. The mind of a fanboy works in mysterious way. Anything that might make their character look "bad" is spin so much you don't even know what the initial argument is. 
Although your point of them just having different abilities doesn't really matter when it comes to analyzing what the two of them can or can not do in a fight. Those differences do make a difference. While they're both in the same level. *so are Zoro and Luffy* We can't close our eyes to the fact that one is superior to the other when it comes to fighting and excuse em due to their different fighting styles and abilities. I mean, that's the point isn't it? That's what it means to have different abilities. 

As for Vergo and long range. While he might not be as versetile as Zoro when it comes to long range attacks, we did see him shoot a projectile with his bamboo and the air pocket of his swing did bend metal so he's not that limited. But I guess I'm just nit-picking.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 5, 2013)

Zoro mid difficulty confirmed by Oda, everyone stop posting on this thread.


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 5, 2013)

Sanji would definitely beat Kaku , no doubt. Against Mr.1 and Ohm, he would barely lose because of being handicaped. Bad matchups here for Sanji. 

On the other hand I thiink Zoro would have same difficulty beating Jyabura, cause he seems to be very mobile unlike Kaku. It's a matter of match ups, not of powerscaling. 

And no, Zoro wouldn't beat Vergo even he seems to fit in better than Sanji. Law was lucky against Vergo, because of his hax fruit he luckily managed to partiate him.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 5, 2013)

Captain Altintop said:


> On the other hand I thiink Zoro would have same difficulty beating Jyabura, cause he seems to be very mobile unlike Kaku. It's a matter of match ups, not of powerscaling.
> 
> And no, Zoro wouldn't beat Vergo even he seems to fit in better than Sanji. Law was lucky against Vergo, because of his hax fruit he luckily managed to partiate him.



Jyabura never dodged Sanji's attacks, he always used tekkai.
Zoro has power based moves in his base form such as ichi gorilla that make him stronger and can break tekkai.
Zoro would destroy Jyabura W/O Asura, he would have an easier time defeating Jyabura than Sanji did.
I think you overrate Vergo, he was exchanging equally with Sanji even though he had a slight upper hand. Once Law got serious, the fight was over.
Zoro not needing to worry about breaking his bones since he has Swords to parry with makes a huge difference, Eventually he will overpower Vergo with higher end moves and win comfortably.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 5, 2013)

How can you saw Law was lucky when that is his fighting power? He didn't just magically obtain the fruit when he fought Vergo.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 5, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Mnh, but Zoro being more lethal fits with my so called  shallow assertion of their different fighting style doesn't it? Although I was mostly looking at their strength based hits. Or Zoro's attack that aren't very much based on the slash but the power behind it. So his lethality is nothing but a plus in Zoro's side.
> 
> 
> Again I'm aware of that. Who do you think is going to be able to take more damage from the other? The guy who's focus on his hard defense which based on what we know of Zoro could be penetrated with mild difficulty, or the dude who's ability to take attacks was beyond ridiculous even pre time skip? and mostly against attacks that are known for how lethal they can be. *sword slashes* so is my assessment incorrect?
> ...



I'm not sure why you're being so passive aggressive in your response when I literally said I didn't have a problem with the point you were making. I think Sanji, Zoro and Luffy are roughly on the same level, but that doesn't necessarily mean I believe Sanji or Luffy would defeat Vergo with the same difficulty as Zoro (be it lower difficulty, or higher). Fights between the elite are decided more than raw fighting power.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Aug 5, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Base Vergo?
> CoA covered Vergo = Transformed Vergo?



base as in weaponless Vergo. Vergo was clearly outclassed in terms of pure skill since he couldnt keep Sanji from landing hits and only hurt him the one time Sanji blocked his attack the wrong way. he was 'winning' cause his body is way tougher than Sanji's.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Aug 6, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm not sure why you're being so passive aggressive in your response when I literally said I didn't have a problem with the point you were making. I think Sanji, Zoro and Luffy are roughly on the same level, but that doesn't necessarily mean I believe Sanji or Luffy would defeat Vergo with the same difficulty as Zoro (be it lower difficulty, or higher). Fights between the elite are decided more than raw fighting power.


 Didn't mean it. Wasn't trying to convey that emotion when writing my post. Might have to do with the fact that I starter responding before I read the whole post, digest it by parts. 

And it all depends by what you mean by "raw fighting power' if you mean their ability to fight, then yes it is. Or at least that's how, I think, most of us try to look at hypothetical match ups. Of course there can circumstantial events that might lead someone to beat another opponent not because of their own superior fighting abilities. *Law vs Vergo* but then again that leaves a level of uncertainty and it's not a good way to analyze how a fight between the two would go.

@CA lmao, just no. Zoro would easy-mid difficulty Jyabura. He literally has nothing to push Zoro. He's like a poor man's Mr.1, he's too late to be an inconvenience.


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## Darkberry (Aug 6, 2013)

Zolo uses his 4th sword for this mach. onlu


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## Lycka (Aug 6, 2013)

LOL WUT????????????????????????????

kidding.


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