# Sabo vs King



## Great Potato (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo takes Zoro's place in the fight against King, whose fire will win out in the end?


----------



## oiety (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo, probably high diff imo.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo has pirate king's potential. 
Was on par with Ace as a child and reached logically the n°2 spot in the revolutionnary army, ie Dragon's n°2.



He has a similar rank, a fire logia.....
Sabo got this.

Reactions: Like 9 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 18, 2022)

Fire basically cannot hurt King, there is a chance that King can even manipulate Sabo's mera abilities. They hold a similiar position in their crews/organisation and featswise King is just better. Going with King high diff here.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


----------



## VileNotice (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo is stronger but idk what mera is supposed to do to King. At the same time it could serve as a good defense from King’s fire. I’ll give it to Sabo extreme

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 18, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Sabo has pirate king's potential.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 18, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


>


Put some respect on his name. Don't get the Sabo underestimation, the guy is Dragon's n°2 and only 22 years old.
Sabo scales to Ace. They were near equals as children, and everything he has done since their childhood proves that his growth was similar.
He legit has Pirate King potential, just like Ace.



VileNotice said:


> Sabo is stronger but idk what mera is supposed to do to King. At the same time it could serve as a good defense from King’s fire. I’ll give it to Sabo extreme


Yeah they counter each other for the most part. Hard to burn fire. Goes both ways.


And Sabo showcased excellent CoA, shockwaves with Ryusoken , etc.
The character is constantly clashing with admirals.
Hype, feat, portrayal, doesn't matter.
He's got this.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 18, 2022)

What is this fixation on fire?

Did people forget that Sabo has the dragon techniques or something?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Inferno Jewls (Jan 18, 2022)

leaning towards Sabo, high diff


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo high diff


----------



## Bloody Raiu (Jan 18, 2022)

Current sabo, whos presumably been training and familiarizing himself with the mera mera since he returned to Baltigo should be a cut above the guy we saw in the DR arc.

Given his hype and potential going forward, i think its fair to say he's surpassed King by now

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## MYJC (Jan 18, 2022)

King until Sabo gets better feats. Especially since his DF won't work very well against King.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Strobacaxi (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo should be around post King Zoro level. Sabo high diffs

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo mid - high diffs


----------



## Germa 66 (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo wouldn’t even need his fruit to win. He rips King’s stupid mask off and beats him silly with his pipe

Reactions: Lewd 2


----------



## trance (Jan 18, 2022)

sabo high diffs


----------



## Mihawk (Jan 18, 2022)

Sabo most certainly.

His potential was comparable to Ace’s, and he’s a master level martial artist who utilises CoA trained by Dragon himself on top of weaponising and training with the Mera Mera.

He’s had 2 encounters with an Admiral in Fujitora (one on panel and the other off panel).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## convict (Jan 19, 2022)

King is the worst possible matchup for Sabo and has hotter fire. Giving it to King in a very difficult match.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 5 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## BladeofTheMorning (Jan 19, 2022)

People are forgetting that Sabo didn’t want the MM no mi for the power but to keep the spirit of Ace alive.

He was clashing with burgess just fine. He’s also the number 2 of the RA. He’s clashed with Fuji twice and put him in bandages albeit it could have been with some help. None the less clashed twice and had no serious damage. Anyone we know related to the main character who has defied an admiral has been absolutely wrecked. Aokiji: wiped out the monster trio, Kizaru - cleaned up the supernovas and was about to kill Zoro and Akainu - gave Luffy a nice scar and was about to turn him into nothing if it wasn’t for Shanks. So sabo is doing just fine.

We know he’s also able to adapt quickly and has above average intelligence. He new to the MM no mi but look how he used it… Insane. He had good control over it. I would love to see him use blue fire and then black fire. Beastly.

He takes this fight high diff. He doesn’t even have to use his fruit imo, he’s got dragon claws.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Amol (Jan 19, 2022)

Sabo wins with moderate difficulty I guess.

There is not much King can do to him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## convict (Jan 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


>



Tie with a Kid Ace a few times and you have PK potential  

Current Ace would probably be Yonkou level if he kept up with his desire to battle strong foes over the timeskip.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 3 | Tier Specialist 3


----------



## Captain Quincy (Jan 19, 2022)

I feel like people voting for Sabo are mainly just doing it off their expectations for the future

He hasn't shown the strength to bypass King's durability. Even if Sabo did then he hasn't shown the speed to avoid taking King's attacks enough to survive either.

His best portrayal is the implication that he's meant to be at least about an equal to Ace, but that puts him at Yamato level at most which still isn't enough.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Corax (Jan 19, 2022)

King is a mid. diff for fresh and rested aCoC Zoro. No way he should give more to current version (Wano) of Sabo, even if he is now behind his brother. If this is DR mera Sabo I guess it should be high or very high for Sabo.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2022)

convict said:


> Tie with a Kid Ace a few times and you have PK potential
> 
> Current Ace would probably be Yonkou level if he kept up with his desire to battle strong foes over the timeskip.



"Tie with Kid Ace a few times".... this is your description of their portrayal and the dynamic between the two of them and Luffy during their childhood, as well as their growth rate?
That tells everything that needs to be known regarding your objectivity on that subject really.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 19, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> "Tie with Kid Ace a few times".... this is your description of their portrayal and the dynamic between the two of them and Luffy during their childhood?
> That tells everything that needs to be known regarding your objectivity on that subject really.


At least elaborate on your point before mocking people for disagreeing with it. That's the only thing that established them as relative during their childhood, and the main anecdote you used for your argument.

Just to point out the flaws there already are in your comparison: you're neglecting the fact that Ace awakened CoC in childhood when Sabo didn't(and hasn't shown any sign of it to date), and how Ace more than caught up with Sabo in ability/prestige despite getting a much later start. Also completely ignoring the influence that Ace's genetics have on his potential; which is a bonus that Sabo completely lacks.


----------



## Amol (Jan 19, 2022)

Sabo doesn't need PK level potential to beat King.

King is just YFM.

Sabo was at that level in Dressrosa. Since then he gained a DF, trained with it and fought multiple powerful people.

Even if you don't think he has PK level potential (I don't believe that either),  he obviously has top tier potential.

He would be in top 10 in final war.

He is already low top tier given everything we have heard about Reverie.

So in no universe King is beating Sabo. This fight had any value for Dressrosa version of Sabo.

It is one sided beatdown now. I don't know what it is. Maybe King is still overwanked or Sabo is underrated but this is not a balanced fight anymore.

Sabo is approaching Top tier level. Days of him losing to any YFM is in the past. Just look at the plot narrative.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> At least elaborate on your point before mocking people for disagreeing with it. That's the only thing that established them as relative during their childhood, and the main anecdote you used for your argument.




Because the posts (yours included) i answered to were consensual and elaborated?






It's not that deep, nor serious. Not a big deal, but it would help your argument if you abided by it yourself.
Sounds hypocritical.







Chip Skylark said:


> Just to point out the flaws there already are in your comparison: you're neglecting the fact that Ace awakened CoC in childhood when Sabo didn't(and hasn't shown any sign of it to date), and how Ace more than caught up with Sabo in ability/prestige despite getting a much later start. Also completely ignoring the influence that Ace's genetics have on his potential; which is a bonus that Sabo completely lacks.



First of all having CoC is not mandatory to keep up with conquerors. This is a baseless claim. Strong conquerors with advanced CoC are among the strongest characters,  which doesn't imply that all the strongest characters are conquerors......
We can't simply assume that every admiral is a conqueror for example ,can we?
That would be baseless.
Case in point?
Law is keeping up with Kid just fine and currently being effective against several monstruous conquerors without having it himself (Big Mom being one of the most infamous conquerors)



Similarly, heredity is not necessary either to be completely broken. Big Mom is a natural born destroyer, someone like Coby was just a regular boy seemingly. Kid or Killer are seemingly self made men too.
You came up with those two criterias to limit Sabo's potential.
Baseless.


Doesn't mean that those elements have no value nor impact whatsoever . It boosts Ace's profile, and anyone with such characteristics . Ace had also slightly more potential than Sabo admittedly.
But Sabo's profile is exceptional too, being Dragon's right hand, the connection with Kuma...... Sabo's upbringing is exceptional. Environment, education are paramount, cf Coby and Garp......


Long story short, this thing is not hard to decipher, unless a reader is in denial.
Sabo is 22, not 40 or 50 like someone like Jinbei. To this day, he's still comparable to Luffy (did not say necessarly equal) which proves his incredible potential and growth rate. Sabo has mad hype, feats and portrayal. We're not talking about a few sparring sessions as children......
Sabo is currently one of the most infamous criminal in the world, making headlines after he wreacked havoc on Marie Geoise during a major event in the story, where admirals were involved.

1) This was clearly just another day for the three boys. Business as usual.
What happened that day was not exceptional but just a reflection of the dynamic between them. Sabo was very close to Ace when they were children clearly. He did not simply tie with him a few times, that's an incredibly ridiculous downplay.


2) Hence why Luffy never beat Ace . Not before that day, nor until Ace's departure.
Luffy never beat Sabo either seemingly.
When Luffy whines and tells them ( associating the two another time) that he'll put them down when he grows up, Ace tells him that he can't since they will grow too (he doesn't make any distinction between his growth rate and Sabo's relatively to Luffy). Luffy will not be able to beat Sabo either according to Ace.
And that matters knowing who Luffy and Ace are,their growth rate and their potential.....

3) Most important part.
The dude is supposed to be dead, reappears as the n°2 in the revolutionary army , Dragon's n°2, and still far stronger than Luffy, despite the MC's journey and training.
So despite Luffy's growth, his big bro's growth was also exceptional, comparable.
Ignoring how strong Sabo was after his return can't be taken seriously.
Fought against admirals every time he took initiatives in the story.
Can't be downplayed either.
Let's also not forget that Sabo suffered amnesia, and was severly injured because of the Celestial Dragon, his journey had setbacks too....

Once again this is not hard to decipher, just like it's not hard to decipher how Yamato compared with Ace. Sabo is of the same ilk as Yamato, Ace and co.
And Lol at Yamato being outclassed vs King.
King has no superior portrayal,  feat nor hype. Which doesn't mean he is not incredible and strong himself.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Beast (Jan 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Fire basically cannot hurt King, there is a chance that King can even manipulate Sabo's mera abilities.


say what? 
are we in the avatar universe?

looool, King is not no fire bender.

Sabo beats the breaks off him, lower end of high diff.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 19, 2022)

Beast said:


> say what?
> are we in the avatar universe?
> 
> looool, King is not no fire bender.
> ...



The guy can manipulate fire, i mean sure you can ignore that but i won't.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Beast (Jan 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> The guy can manipulate fire, i mean sure you can ignore that but i won't.


So, how is that same as controlling all fire?
Or are you gonna try to skip past that?

the only one bending fire here is Sabo… you know the man made of fire but good try, one of your best I would say.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 19, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Because the post i answered to was consensual and elaborated?
> 
> It's not that deep, nor serious.


Bruh what


Mylesime said:


> First of all having CoC is not mandatory to keep up with conquerors.


Never argued this. Just pointing out that Ace clearly had more potential, and better portrayal.


Mylesime said:


> Similarly, heredity is not necessary either to be completely broken. Big Mom is a natural born destroyer, someone like Coby was just a regular boy seemingly. Kid or Killer are seemingly self made men too.
> You came up with those two criterias to limit Sabo's potential.
> Baseless.


It's not necessary, but it's an obvious advantage. Sabo would need to show that he can keep up with Ace's potential despite that. Can't just assume that they have similar potential because Sabo was kinda close to Ace in their practice duels when they were kids.


Mylesime said:


> However, this thing is not hard to decipher, unless a reader is in denial. Sabo is 22, not 40 or 50 like someone like Jinbei. *To this day, he's still comparable to Luffy* (did not say necessarly equal) which proves his incredible potential and growth rate. Sabo has mad hype, feats and portrayal.


This is still something you need to actually back up.


Mylesime said:


> 1) This was clearly just another day for the three boys. Business as usual.
> What happened that day was not exceptional but just a reflection of the dynamic between them. Sabo was very close to Ace when they were children clearly. He did not simply tie with him.a.few times, that's incredible downplay.





Mylesime said:


> 2) Hence why Luffy never beat Ace . Not before that day, nor until Ace's departure.
> Luffy never beat Sabo either seemingly.
> When Luffy whines and tells them ( associating the two another time) that he'll put them down when he grows up, Ace tells him that he can't since they will grow too (he doesn't make any distinction between his growth rate and Sabo's relatively to Luffy). Luffy will not be able to.beat Sabo either according to Ace.
> And that matters knowing who Luffy and Ace are,their growth rate and their potential.....





Mylesime said:


> 3) Most important part.
> The dude is supposed to be dead, reappears as the n°2 in the revolutionary army , Dragon's n°2, and still far stronger than Luffy, despite the MC's journey and training.
> So despite Luffy's growth, his big bro's growth was also exceptional, comparable.
> Ignoring how strong Sabo was after his return can't be taken seriously.
> ...


Still treating your argument as if it's already a proven fact before you've provided any actual support for it, and neglecting how Sabo got a much earlier start. Sabo being far stronger than Luffy is not an established fact, and not sure why you think that'd prove Sabo's growth was comparable when he got a 10 year head start training under Dragon. The fact that Luffy definitively surpassed Sabo in a mere 2 years should be more than enough proof that you can't just assume Sabo has comparable potential to either of his brothers.

Should also show why you can't just rely on character statements from their childhood to assume that Luffy would either never surpass his brothers, or that his brothers potential would rival his own. The dynamics have clearly changed to the point where even you can't deny, within reason, that Luffy is more powerful now. So it's weird that you still treat these childhood statements/feats as some irrefutable truth when they've already been disproven, as even you've more or less acknowledged.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Lmao (Jan 19, 2022)

Sabo still wildly underrated. 

Not to worry though this thread will age like fine milk when we see him on panel again.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 4


----------



## Beast (Jan 19, 2022)

Only people arguing for King are like 2 Z boys and this chippy guy who seems to have a problem with sabos portrayal whatever that means.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 19, 2022)

Beast said:


> So, how is that same as controlling all fire?
> Or are you gonna try to skip past that?
> 
> the only one bending fire here is Sabo… you know the man made of fire but good try, one of your best I would say.



If you notice i also said "manipulate fire" in my post, so you're attacking a strawman like most of the time

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Orca (Jan 19, 2022)

Sabo should win this.

I know both King and Sabo have the same position within their organisations but you gotta look at the context as well. Sabo is 22 years old whereas King is close to his peak. Sabo is still making leaps in power the same way Luffy, Zoro or Sanji are. Even if they started equal in the fight, Sabo would win by simply outgrowing him within the fight. Thats assuming he hasn’t already surpassed him.

I’m no fan of Sabo either and he slightly ruined the Revo army for me but thats how I see Oda writing the fight.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Never argued this. Just pointing out that Ace clearly had more potential, and better portrayal.


Did not deny  Ace's superiority .
However it's clear as day that Sabo has always been comparable to Ace.
It was close then, would still be close if Ace was alive.
Sabo is comparable to Yamato (don't care which one someone favors, they have a similar level).
You're acting like being Dragon's right hand at 22, and before acquiring a devil fruit is not an insane feat.
It is. Sabo is currently a monster.




Chip Skylark said:


> It's not necessary, but it's an obvious advantage. Sabo would need to show that he can keep up with Ace's potential despite that. Can't just assume that they have similar potential because Sabo was kinda close to Ace in their practice duels when they were kids.



Sabo was n°2 in the revolutionaries army before acquiring Ace's fire fruit. He's been fighting admirals since his introduction. It's clear as day that not only was he comparable to Ace as a child, but his growth rate is also comparable (not equal, comparable)
Kid, Law, Yamato, Zoro, Sanji. Oda loves his trios and parallels. Sabo is comparable to these guys, and quite frankly he's certainly not the weakest of the bunch.
A strong character is a strong character,  by any means necessary. Each character has his tools, Kid is a conqueror , Law not, don't see any advantage one side or the other, they're peers, equals.
Again Law has no CoC, belonged at that level perfectly VS Big Mom.
Sabo's portrayal is clear, he can fight vs Top Tiers and live to tell the story. Yamato was unable to free herself using Ryo, something Sabo mastered, each character has his strengths and weaknesses.
Just like Law is doing fine vs Yonkos, Sabo has been portrayed as strong enough to engage admirals.




Chip Skylark said:


> This is still something you need to actually back up.


First of all, we're all speculating regarding Sabo's current level, without seeing him in action on panel, it's in part assumptions.
We don't know what exactly transpired, nor his current state and location.
You can't accurately evaluate Sabo's level either , backing your claims with proofs. We did not see him in action on panel at Marie Geoise, nor know what was the exact outcome.
It goes both ways. The only bullet proof stance is to admit that we can't exactly assess his current level.
You're speculating too. We 're all guessing.

Being comparable, means being able to hold his own and not get significantly dominated.
Sabo has been fighting admirals in the story since his introduction, his presence  was used as an excuse by Fujitora to explain his inability to help Doflamingo (if Sabo wasn't strong enough that explanation would not make any sense).
Sabo's feats, hype and portrayal clearly shows that Luffy is not manhandling him.
Hence why he's comparable, weaker or not that's not the point.
It's clear as day that Sabo can fuck with Law, Yamato and co. And yes even Luffy.
Luffy is.not fodderizing his big bro.



Chip Skylark said:


> Still treating your argument as if it's already a proven fact before you've provided any actual support for it, and neglecting how Sabo got a much earlier start. Sabo being far stronger than Luffy is not an established fact, and not sure why you think that'd prove Sabo's growth was comparable when he got a 10 year head start training under Dragon. The fact that Luffy definitively surpassed Sabo in a mere 2 years should be more than enough proof that you can't just assume Sabo has comparable potential to either of his brothers.



Still ignoring his amnesia, and his injuries, while also neglecting how luffy was personally trained for a year and a half by Rayleigh...

Luffy benefitiated from circumstances that explain how he was able to leapfrog stronger characters too.His training session with Katakuri being one of them.
Each character has his own journey and path.
Sabo was comparable to Ace at the begining, and clearly comparable to the strongest  characters in his age group currently.
Begining and end point, doesn't matter , he's constantly impressive.
So He showcased great potential, and is currently a powerhouse among the characters of his generation which proves his incredible growth rate. Not only his strength as a child.
Again , was Dragon right hand without devil fruit ..... should go without saying



Chip Skylark said:


> Should also show why you can't just rely on character statements from their childhood to assume that Luffy would either never surpass his brothers, or that his brothers potential would rival his own. The dynamics have clearly changed to the point where even you can't deny, within reason, that Luffy is more powerful now. So it's weird that you still treat these childhood statements/feats as some irrefutable truth when they've already been disproven, as even you've more or less acknowledged.



Nothing has been contradicted.
Ace and Sabo were stronger than Luffy, because older, but because exceptional themselves , showcased comparable growth rate since Luffy could not catch up before adultehood.
And both confirmed why they were such monsters as children.
Again you're ignoring the fact that Sabo was the n°2 among the revolutionnaries without any devil fruit.
Forget Luffy. Kid, Zoro, Law ,Yamato, Sanji it doesn't matter Sabo is obviously a challenge for any of those characters.
Having slightly less potential than Ace or Luffy is a given, applies to all the other characters of the same age group i talked about. Luffy is the MC, the chosen one, no one will be more special.....
Sabo is one of the few characters comparable tough.

He was almost as strong as Ace as a child, and is currently comparable to the new generation of oustanding pirates. This is not hard to grasp, Sabo is able to hold his own vs top tiers regularly just like the other young promising fighters of the serie.
Again, stop the downplay, his level as a child was abnormal......*but his level as a character in his early 20s is ridiculous too. Which proved his comparable potential ultimately .... comparable to Luffy's (not equal).*


----------



## GeoNation (Jan 19, 2022)

King is immune to fire
King can conjure up magma which we know burns fire.
adcoc is needed to have a chance to defeat King.

so how does Sabo even win this match? King beats Sabo with at most the same difficulty he beat Marco with

Reactions: Winner 1 | Neutral 1


----------



## Van Basten (Jan 19, 2022)

Pre-Reverie Sabo takes it low end of high diff.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 19, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Did not deny  Ace's superiority .
> However it's clear as day that Sabo has always been comparable to Ace.
> It was close then, would still be close if Ace was alive.
> Sabo is comparable to Yamato (don't care which one someone favors, they have a similar level).
> ...


People also seem to miss this parallel:


Oden then went onto become someone Kaido viewed as on par with Roger and WB. Oda wouldn't make Sabo noticeably weaker than Luffy or Ace in the long run. They have to keep that brother dynamic.

Reactions: Winner 5


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 19, 2022)

_King. 

Sobbin needs more feats. _

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WeakMCinTraining (Jan 19, 2022)

I don't quite agree with the Sabo had the same potential as Ace so he is PK level theory. People can be equals at certain points but that does not always mean their growth rate is the same. Their experiences shapes their growth. Luffy was weaker then Sabo and Ace yet I believe he is stronger than Sabo now and even younger.

Luffy and Zoro were shown as equals at Whiskey Peak but Luffy has outgrown Zoro in all areas. Same with Luffy, Law, Kid potrayal in Saboady.

But I could be wrong as well. It is a manga and Sabo is just Ace 2.0 and was always meant to be as strong as him.

Sabo should win with mid-high difficulty. I cannot imagine him being weaker than Zoro or at the very least he should be equal to Zoro. He is not as static in power level as King and should always be growing offscreen as he is more relevant in future arcs.

Reactions: Disagree 2


----------



## Great Potato (Jan 19, 2022)

King should be largely immune to fire, so the big question for me is if Sabo has anything up his sleeve powerful enough to drop someone as tough as King outside of the Mera Mera no mi. It took aCoC Dragon Damnation from Zoro to pack up King once and for all and it seems overly generous to give Sabo credit on having that level of attack power without relying on his DF.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 19, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> King should be largely immune to fire, so the big question for me is if Sabo has anything up his sleeve powerful enough to drop someone as tough as King outside of the Mera Mera no mi. It took aCoC Dragon Damnation from Zoro to pack up King once and for all and it seems overly generous to give Sabo credit on having that level of attack power without relying on his DF.


Sabo is immune to all types of fire, most of king  attack's have nothing on him, even his strongest "*Fire* Dragon Emperor".  I notice throughout the fight zoro was really enduring all of king attacks and or dodging them while being held back by enma. Sabo can definitely dodge his attacks king will have to rely on his cqc, sword which will lead to his demise.


----------



## Mercurial (Jan 19, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> People also seem to miss this parallel:
> 
> 
> Oden then went onto become someone Kaido viewed as on par with Roger and WB. Oda wouldn't make Sabo noticeably weaker than Luffy or Ace in the long run. They have to keep that brother dynamic.


This is comical. Nowadays people see some characters in the same page and scream "lol portrayal".

Is Oden strong? Sure. Is Oden as strong as Roger or Prime Whitebeard? Not even remotely.
They are surely stronger than Yonkos and Admirals and people like Mihawk and Dragon; stile Oden, as strong as he is, is weaker than them.
So he is a good deal weaker than Roger and Whitebeard. 

Sabo couldn't even give a lasting burn or broke some bones to Fujitora...
Zoro, even when he was a lot weaker than now, could wound Kaido so much he could leave him a permanent scar (the Scabbards joined strength could not). Current Law and Kidd can seriously wound Big Mom. Yamato could hold off Kaido for a bit.

Sabo showed nothing more than a YC1 can do. The best the guy could do was barely wound Fujitora. Don't see why King, Marco or Katakuri would not be able to do the same, judging by Marco's decent performance against Kizaru and Big Mom.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Jan 19, 2022)

Sabo has displayed CoA internal destruction Haki.

He has what it takes to bypass King's defenses and beat him.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 20, 2022)

Wut? Zoro used ad.CoA to end King? Or did he have to level up his CoC? And whip out a new ad coc attack to end king. . .

Point is Ad.CoA isn't getting past King durability flame, when Zoro a guy whos ap is well beyond Sabos ad.coa attacks couldn't get the job done either.

Sabo loses here, lacking ad.CoC ap and his flame attacks aren't doing jack the drought to King.

Bad match up for Sobbin.


----------



## zoro (Jan 20, 2022)

Dressrosa Sabo or speculated current Sabo?


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 20, 2022)

convict said:


> Tie with a Kid Ace a few times and you have PK potential
> 
> Current Ace would probably be Yonkou level if he kept up with his desire to battle strong foes over the timeskip.


They also both climbed the ranks in powerful orgs at a young age. And sabo did that without a broken df.


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Jan 20, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Wut? Zoro used ad.CoA to end King? Or did he have to level up his CoC? And whip out a new ad coc attack to end king. . .
> 
> Point is Ad.CoA isn't getting past King durability flame, when Zoro a guy whos ap is well beyond Sabos ad.coa attacks couldn't get the job done either.
> 
> ...


Too bad, Zoro didn't even have ACoA, so he had to let Enma pull out his CoC to defeat King because that's his only option.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2


----------



## Fel1x (Jan 20, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Fire basically cannot hurt King, there is a chance that King can even manipulate Sabo's mera abilities. They hold a similiar position in their crews/organisation and featswise King is just better. Going with King high diff here.


has King ever defeated admiral? I don't think so. But Sabo put Fujitora in coma

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## JustSumGuy (Jan 20, 2022)

Fel1x said:


> has King ever defeated admiral? I don't think so. But Sabo put Fujitora in coma


Lol stop it dude.

But anyway I would guess Sabo still being new to the mera could be a good thing because he still has his old fighting style to fall back on from before. I would guess that his haki and innate fighting style have also gotten stronger than it was on Dressrosa in tandem with his fire abilities. 

….And I know Oda would never write Current Sabo losing to King as well.


----------



## blueframe01 (Jan 21, 2022)

Sabo got his fruit probably a few weeks ago and people are judging him based on his fire skills . Has King even shown Haki? For all you know he'd struggle to bypass Sabo's intangibility. In the other hand, Sabo seems to use Ryo, which will bypass King's durability to a certain extend. Coming back to the Mera fruit, what kind of fire manipulation has King shown that makes Mera useless? Has he even shown anything?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

BoS Luffy had PK potential, he's still not beating King, so the whole potential argument is meaningless.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 21, 2022)

Being a fire Logia already means most of King's arsenal will be less than effective against Sabo. Even if King's ultimate attack was comparable to magma, I think there's a world of difference between regular magma which Zoro has encountered in punk hazard and the sheer potency of what Akainu outputs directly which straight up melts blades from ambient heat alone.


I am also of the view that Sabo can definitely hurt King. He seems to have techniques akin to AdCoa which tbh should be enough to take King down. King is a tough nut, but internal attacks are another matter entirely.

Lastly, I'm seeing an interesting narrative being brought up to downplay Sabo's performance against the Admirals. Something about him not dealing permanent damage. It's funny coz despite all the characters who have fought admirals both in the current and previous generation, this is the first time I'm seeing the absence of a "permanent scar" as some form of mark against a character's feat. Never mind that Fujitora was in bandages days after the actual battle. 

Such line of reasoning shouldn't be taken seriously.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

Iam seeing bandages being brought up to wank Sabo and downplay admirals when we literally see characters wearing those despite being capable of regenerating and not even taking damage in a fight such as Marco and Sengoku. Baseless argument that cannot be justified by anything other than assumptions.

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 2


----------



## Freechoice (Jan 21, 2022)

Sabo mid diff

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 21, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Iam seeing bandages being brought up to wank Sabo and downplay admirals when we literally see characters wearing those despite being capable of regenerating and not even taking damage in a fight such as Marco and Sengoku. Baseless argument that cannot be justified by anything other than assumptions.


>Sengoku fought Blackbeard and his crew off screen. We have no idea the extent of injuries he sustained 
>Marco's regen has its limits.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> >Sengoku fought Blackbeard and his crew off screen. We have no idea the extent of injuries he sustained
> >Marco's regen has its limits.



So basically Fujitora vs Sabo?  

So again, an assumption with nothing to back it up how it went down, thank you.
Not to mention a whole week afterwards when marines escorted the royal families and a massive incident happened.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 21, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> *So basically Fujitora vs Sabo?  *
> 
> So again, an assumption with nothing to back it up how it went down, thank you.
> Not to mention a whole week afterwards when marines escorted the royal families and a massive incident happened.


 

I mean it would mean that Sabo can hold his own against an Admiral for a length of time?
Remind me again what King has done in that regards.

The massive incident you are referring to would be the incident involving Sabo, fam. Also it's a fair bit of reaching to imply the Fuji sustained said injuries from escorting royal families


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> I mean it would mean that Sabo can hold his own against an Admiral for a length of time?
> Remind me again what King has done in that regards.



Zoro did that in Dressrosa too. Luffy did. Not much hype there, Jozu did, Vista did, Marco did.



Kroczilla said:


> The massive incident you are referring to would be the incident involving Sabo, fam. Also it's a fair bit of reaching to imply the Fuji sustained said injuries from escorting royal families



The world government likes to present their power so if Sabo was indeed killed the incident wouldn't be covered but exaggerated. Just look how Ace's execution gone down, it was a worldwide event with no cover up. The fatality involves something else. And it's said multiple events occured, Levely, the incident with the revs, no one said it stops there. Attemped murder is included too. Yeah too much shit went down and we know nothing concrete.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 21, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Zoro did that in Dressrosa too. Luffy did. Not much hype there, Jozu did, Vista did, Marco did.


Yet in all those instances, said Admirals came out almost entirely if not completely unscathed.


TheWiggian said:


> The world government likes to present their power so if Sabo was indeed killed the incident wouldn't be covered but exaggerated. Just look how Ace's execution gone down, it was a worldwide event with no cover up. The fatality involves something else. And it's said multiple events occured, Levely, the incident with the revs, no one said it stops there. Attemped murder is included too. Yeah too much shit


Not quite understanding what point is being made here. The fact is other than his and Green Bull's encounter with Sabo and the revo commanders, there's no other incident from that period that could have realistically resulted in Fuji sustaining said injuries. Sabo clearly isn't dead. If anything, it appears to be a case of a set up likely involving the death of Cobra.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Yet in all those instances, said Admirals came out almost entirely if not completely unscathed.



And? Do we know exactly Sabo did it? You don't, you're left in the dark about it.



Kroczilla said:


> Not quite understanding what point is being made here. The fact is other than his and Green Bull's encounter with Sabo and the revo commanders, there's no other incident from that period that could have realistically resulted in Fuji sustaining said injuries. Sabo clearly isn't dead. If anything, it appears to be a case of a set up likely involving the death of Cobra.



And we know marine including Fujitora escorted the royal families when the incident could've happened.

Reactions: Neutral 1


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Fire basically cannot hurt King, there is a chance that King can even manipulate Sabo's mera abilities.


Ehhh


TheWiggian said:


> If you notice i also said "manipulate fire" in my post, so you're attacking a strawman like most of the time


Straw man, dog man… heck, add the Tinman for all I care… it doesn’t change that you making baseless claims. Even more ridiculous that you say it with such confidence… your hate for sabos has reached new highs.

this nigha really said King is gonna control the fire mama fire… who’s got the fire fruit again?

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

Beast said:


> Ehhh
> 
> Straw man, dog man… heck, add the Tinman for all I care… it doesn’t change that you making baseless claims. Even more ridiculous that you say it with such confidence… your hate for sabos has reached new highs.
> 
> this nigha really said King is gonna control the fire mama fire… who’s got the fire fruit again?



*Yawn* nothing to dispute that possibility, you bore me beast-kun


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> *Yawn* nothing to dispute that possibility, you bore me beast-kun


Nothing to do dispute that King can manipulate Sabos fire?
Looool, go back to making Enma jokes man, debating isn’t your thing anymore.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Eustathios (Jan 21, 2022)

A large part of Sabo's arsenal is rendered completely useless against King and vice versa. King being a Zoan and a Lunarian has some pretty good showings whether in base or Hybrid form. He said it himself that he wouldn't limit himself to a particular style, in this case fire powers.

So this all comes down to who's more capable in CQC. I'd say King has an edge in experience and Zoan boosted stats and Sabo has better haki (potentially).

It does help King's case that he dealt with Marco without significant issues related to his blue flames, which are arguably a much worse matchup than Sabo's (superior to regular flames, bypass durability, negate damage).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

King's fire that's comparable to magma should absolutely be able to damage Sabo through both it's superior heat, and King's haki. 

If Sabo were capable of countering temperatures as hot as magma shortly after acquiring the Mera Mera then Ace would probably still be alive.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


----------



## blueframe01 (Jan 21, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> A large part of Sabo's arsenal is rendered completely useless against King and vice versa. King being a Zoan and a Lunarian has some pretty good showings whether in base or Hybrid form. He said it himself that he wouldn't limit himself to a particular style, in this case fire powers.
> 
> So this all comes down to who's more capable in CQC. I'd say King has an edge in experience and Zoan boosted stats and Sabo has better haki (potentially).
> 
> It does help King's case that he dealt with Marco without significant issues related to his blue flames, who are arguably a much worse matchup than Sabo's (superior to regular flames, bypass durability, negate damage).


So the guy who fought CQC all his life & showed AdvCoA an arc before it went mainstream somehow "potentially" has better haki than the other guy who didn't show a single instance of Haki? hmmm

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## blueframe01 (Jan 21, 2022)

blueframe01 said:


> So the guy who fought CQC all his life & showed AdvCoA an arc before it went mainstream somehow  only "potentially" has better haki than the other guy who didn't show a single instance of Haki? hmmm


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

Bruh, we got one guy saying king can control Sabos fire, fuck would they care about Sabo being a high tier just off his base stats and haki.


----------



## TheRealSJ (Jan 21, 2022)

Sabo upper mid diff


----------



## Amol (Jan 21, 2022)

Beast said:


> Bruh, we got one guy saying king can control Sabos fire, fuck would they care about Sabo being a high tier just off his base stats and haki.


Ikr?

The idea that King can control a Logia's own element is might be the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

Sabo is literally the worst match up for King as he is literally a fire. King's most of the attacks are fire related while Sabo is trained in entire martial arts that is based on advanced haki.

So not only Sabo enjoys hilarious elemental advantage, he actually has variety of other shit. King on the other hand is so limited without fire.


Sabo might actually shut down fire on King's back. 

Boy King is really really one of the most wanked character on this board. The sheer absurd claims people make about this side villain is ridiculous.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

King is like the most downplayed commander that exists. People actually believe his unique lunarian abilities play no role in a fight against people of similiar level despite needing advanced CoC and CoA to even harm him properly. The guy can create fire that has magma qualities which been established to burning fire. And they go these lengths just because the grandmaster defeated him lol 

King wins this as his magma-like fire been hinted by Sakazuki to burn fire. He has a unique counter to Sabo's whole fire arsenal here and advanced CoA alone isn't going to be enough to defeat him as we have seen.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

Amol said:


> Ikr?
> 
> The idea that King can control a Logia's own element is might be the stupidest thing I have ever seen.
> 
> ...


King's strongest fires are as hot as magma which is canonically superior to Sabo's flames.

And most of King's attacks weren't even fire based. Throughout the bulk of his fight against Zoro he dominated predominantly with his Zoan attacks, and didn't start utilizing fire more until his mask was taken off. In actual fact he only used fire to attack maybe 2-3 times before taking off his mask.

King controlling Sabo's fire is a pretty bad argument, but your post here honestly isn't too far off from it. Blatantly misrepresents King's fighting style, undermines his fire, and even goes as far as to flip the very argument you criticized in Sabo's favor. Every single advantage you argued for Sabo here was either embellished or fabricated.


----------



## Velocity (Jan 21, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> King's strongest fires are as hot as magma which is canonically superior to Sabo's flames.


Stronger than *pre-skip Ace’s* flames. When Sabo acquired the Mera Mera no Mi, it became pretty obvious he only exists so that Oda could kill off Luffy’s brother without actually killing off Luffy’s brother. It’s basically impossible that Sabo will not master the Devil Fruit beyond what Ace was capable of before the timeskip, just as Ace himself would have if he hadn’t died.

Magma burns at up to *1300° Celsius*, but blue hot flames can reach up to *1650° *Celsius. Sabo will undoubtedly push the fruit to that kind of heat, if not even greater. Fire can become plasma if it burns hot enough and that can be nearly five times hotter than even blue flames, at nearly *8000° Celsius*.


----------



## Steven (Jan 21, 2022)

Sabo should be low-Yonkou Level and kind of equal to Ruffy at this point

Albert has no hope


----------



## Eustathios (Jan 21, 2022)

Velocity said:


> Stronger than *pre-skip Ace’s* flames. When Sabo acquired the Mera Mera no Mi, it became pretty obvious he only exists so that Oda could kill off Luffy’s brother without actually killing off Luffy’s brother. It’s basically impossible that Sabo will not master the Devil Fruit beyond what Ace was capable of before the timeskip, just as Ace himself would have if he hadn’t died.
> 
> Magma burns at up to *1300° Celsius*, but blue hot flames can reach up to *1650° *Celsius. Sabo will undoubtedly push the fruit to that kind of heat, if not even greater. Fire can become plasma if it burns hot enough and that can be nearly five times hotter than even blue flames, at nearly *8000° Celsius*.


These are not real life flames. Steel melts at much higher temperatures than 1300 degrees, yet magma was still melting swords without contact in MF. Marco's blue flames are not hot but they "burned" Prometheus.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Velocity (Jan 21, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> These are not real life flames. Steel melts at much higher temperatures than 1300 degrees, yet magma was still melting swords without contact in MF. Marco's blue flames are not hot but they "burned" Prometheus.


Marco’s flames are magic so they don’t really count and we don’t actually know how well made the swords used by fodder in One Piece are. Steel is an alloy and its melting point depends entirely on its composition, so poorly made weapons would invariably melt more easily. Plus it looks cool and rule of cool matters more than how well-researched the melting point of steel is.

In the end, though, it doesn’t matter. Fire can and does burn hotter than magma so the idea that King’s fire being more like magma would give him some kind of advantage over Sabo’s flames is clearly false because, in actuality, it implies King’s fire is actually _cooler_.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

Velocity said:


> Stronger than *pre-skip Ace’s* flames. When Sabo acquired the Mera Mera no Mi, it became pretty obvious he only exists so that Oda could kill off Luffy’s brother without actually killing off Luffy’s brother. It’s basically impossible that Sabo will not master the Devil Fruit beyond what Ace was capable of before the timeskip, just as Ace himself would have if he hadn’t died.
> 
> Magma burns at up to *1300° Celsius*, but blue hot flames can reach up to *1650° *Celsius. Sabo will undoubtedly push the fruit to that kind of heat, if not even greater. Fire can become plasma if it burns hot enough and that can be nearly five times hotter than even blue flames, at nearly *8000° Celsius*.


Sabo just acquired the fruit recently. Ace had way more experience with the fruit. Even if you wanted to argue that Sabo was intended to replace Ace that wouldn't mean that Sabo could magically shortcut his development and translate Ace's experience to his own. Sabo can surpass Ace naturally in time without using head canon to force Sabo to fully mature immediately.

Also obviously not reasonable to just give Sabo feats beyond what even Ace demonstrated, or anything we've seen in the manga.


----------



## Eustathios (Jan 21, 2022)

Velocity said:


> Marco’s flames are magic so they don’t really count and we don’t actually know how well made the swords used by fodder in One Piece are. Steel is an alloy and its melting point depends entirely on its composition, so poorly made weapons would invariably melt more easily. Plus it looks cool and rule of cool matters more than how well-researched the melting point of steel is.
> 
> In the end, though, it doesn’t matter. Fire can and does burn hotter than magma so the idea that King’s fire being more like magma would give him some kind of advantage over Sabo’s flames is clearly false because, in actuality, it implies King’s fire is actually _cooler_.


Or maybe OP magma is hotter than real life magma? The simplest explanation here. Magma > Fire as per Akainu, they're not the same as real life elements.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

King only has one attack that is portrayed to be as hot as magma. Everything else is plain old fire.


----------



## Velocity (Jan 21, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Sabo just acquired the fruit recently. Ace had way more experience with the fruit. Even if you wanted to argue that Sabo was intended to replace Ace that wouldn't mean that Sabo could magically shortcut his development and translate Ace's experience to his own. Sabo can surpass Ace naturally in time without using head canon to force Sabo to fully mature immediately.
> 
> Also obviously not reasonable to just give Sabo feats beyond what even Ace demonstrated, or anything we've seen in the manga.


Hasn't Sabo already outclassed Ace with it? I'm pretty sure Sabo's Hiken was much, much more powerful than Ace's even during Dressrosa when he just got it.


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

Velocity said:


> Hasn't Sabo already outclassed Ace with it? I'm pretty sure Sabo's Hiken was much, much more powerful than Ace's even during Dressrosa when he just got it.


Sabo should be good at using it now but Ace clearly is the better user of the fruit. Sabos got a whole other fighting style then fighting with a logia anyway, so doesn’t really matter. Sabo was already top Yc with advanced haki and good portrayal/ hype and he got given the mera on top. The mera is the icing on the cake not the actual dough that makes the cake.


----------



## Amol (Jan 21, 2022)

I will NOT give Akainu's feat to King.

It is not hotness that caused problem to Ace's fire but the nature of magma itself. It smothered the fire.

I don't give two shits about how 'like' it is to magma. It is not *actually* magma thus has absolutely nothing to do with Akainu's feat. Akainu's feat only belongs to Akainu. Freeloading is not allowed here.

This is what I mean when I say King is incredibly wanked.  yOkOu lEvEl dUrAbIlItY, equivalence to freaking Akainu's feat for literally no reason etc.

Anything to make King look stronger than his actual station. Stop fucking comparing him to actual top tiers.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

Generally magma is established as hotter than fire in this story so i will give King's magmalike flames the benefit of a doubt over mere flames.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

Amol said:


> I will NOT give Akainu's feat to King.
> 
> It is not hotness that caused problem to Ace's fire but the nature of magma itself. It smothered the fire.
> 
> ...


Akainu actually said that it was because his magma was hotter. Which is why he could literally ‘_burn_’ Ace and not just suffocate his flames like you claim here. Chapter 573.

Gotta do your due diligence before boldly insisting that people are either wanking a character, or using false-equivalents


----------



## Amol (Jan 21, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Akainu actually said that it was because his magma was hotter. Which is why he could literally ‘_burn_’ Ace and not just suffocate his flames like you claim here. Chapter 573.
> 
> Gotta do your due diligence before boldly insisting that people are either wanking a character, or using false-equivalents


Are you sure you get to talk about due diligence?

I mean you are literally trying to give feat of Top-tier-magma-user to a not-top-tier who is definately not using actual magma?

This kinda of feat transference is nonsensical and illogical.

If you can't get something this simple then we really have nothing to discuss.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 21, 2022)

Come on people. 


Surely we aren't actually going to give the feats of literally the most lethal fighter in the verse (and a top tier at that) to King.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

Amol said:


> Are you sure you get to talk about due diligence?
> 
> I mean you are literally trying to give feat of Top-tier-magma-user to a not-top-tier who is definately not using actual magma?
> 
> ...


It’s not an issue of tiers it’s the type of ability. King being weaker than Akainu doesn’t meant he wouldn’t be capable of producing similar levels of heat. Especially when Akainu produced that heat casually while King is using his strongest attacks to do so.

You were mistaken about why the Mera Mera was disadvantaged. Simple as that. Even gave you the chapter so you could see for yourself. This is all stated and shown in the manga. No harm in admitting when you’re wrong.


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

King got top tier Durability (above Kaidous) and Top tier AP (magma attacks like Akainu).

You gotta wonder how is he a mere YC1 and VC

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Come on people.
> 
> 
> Surely we aren't actually going to give the feats of literally the most lethal fighter in the verse (and a top tier at that) to King.


It’s not even giving King feats. It’s a pretty basic acknowledgment of canon fruit disadvantages.

King doesn’t need to be as strong as Akainu to produce the same levels of heat. So when a character outright states that King’s fire is like magma there should be no denying it.

What the manga says is that magma’s heat is superior to the Mera Mera’s fire. Not that magma is only that hot when Akainu uses it. The tier disparity is totally irrelevant.

Also speaks volumes that Zoro refused to cut the attack with Kin’s fire cutting technique.


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

I wonder what Kings sword is made out of to handle that heat


----------



## Amol (Jan 21, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> It’s not an issue of tiers it’s the type of ability. King being weaker than Akainu doesn’t meant he wouldn’t be capable of producing similar levels of heat. Especially when Akainu produced that heat casually while King is using his strongest attacks to do so.
> 
> You were mistaken about why the Mera Mera was disadvantaged. Simple as that. Even gave you the chapter so you could see for yourself. This is all stated and shown in the manga. No harm in admitting when you’re wrong.


Dude your literal argument is based on King's fire being *same *as Akainu's magma.

Like I don't think you realise how nonsensical you come off right now.

Please do not lecture me about being wrong.

I am not basing core of my argument on false comparison. King doesn't have Akainu's magma so he doesn't get Akainu's feat. It is as simple as that.

Anything else is trolling and utterly baffling King wanking.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 21, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> It’s not even giving King feats. It’s a pretty basic acknowledgment of canon fruit disadvantages.
> 
> King doesn’t need to be as strong as Akainu to produce the same levels of heat. So when a character outright states that King’s fire is like magma there should be no denying it.
> 
> ...


However the fact is that the magma produced directly by Akainu is definitely on a completely different class to what is found in nature which to the best of our knowledge, is Zoro's only encounter with magma. There's absolutely no reason to scale them same way we don't scale every single fire attack to what Ace/Sabo are capable of just coz they are all flames.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

Fire bending King or Magma King 
I got Sabo with a pipe above either regardless.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

Beast said:


> I wonder what Kings sword is made out of to handle that heat


My mans forgot haki is a thing.

What is making it so hard for y'all to acknowledge basic concepts here? People have no problem with accepting the fact that Ace can counter Aokiji because of a heat advantage, but suddenly King needs to be as powerful as Akainu to have a heat advantage over the Mera despite it being outright stated in the manga that his fire is as hot as magma? Is it just cause Sabo's involved? 


Kroczilla said:


> However the fact is that the magma produced directly by Akainu is definitely on a completely different class to what is found in nature which to the best of our knowledge, is Zoro's only encounter with magma. There's absolutely no reason to scale them same way we don't scale every single fire attack to what Ace/Sabo are capable of just coz they are all flames.


Akainu made a general comment about how magma was superior to fire instead of claiming that his advantage was only because his particular magma was more potent than other magma in One Piece. 

This argument of yours is assuming beyond what we were given, and without a basis to my knowledge since, at the very least, I can't recall any time where it was said or implied that DF's produce superior versions of their element compared to what is found in nature. Especially since Akainu only used his fruit on its most basic level in this example.

Besides, pretty sure the only time Zoro encountered magma was when the SH's experienced Akainu's magma in punk hazard.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 21, 2022)

Unless Sabo has something like COC striking. I don't see how he's damaging King.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2022)

And so the unholy downplay of Zoro's latest opponent begins

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 21, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> My mans forgot haki is a thing.
> 
> What is making it so hard for y'all to acknowledge basic concepts here? People have no problem with accepting the fact that Ace can counter Aokiji because of a heat advantage, but suddenly King needs to be as powerful as Akainu to have a heat advantage over the Mera despite it being outright stated in the manga that his fire is as hot as magma? Is it just cause Sabo's involved?
> 
> ...




Forgot about the magma point. Sabo will have a disadvantage there tho, he'll defo be reliant on Haki. 

A lot of people saying Sabo seem to heavily underrating King.


----------



## Beast (Jan 21, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> My mans forgot haki is a thing.
> 
> What is making it so hard for y'all to acknowledge basic concepts here? People have no problem with accepting the fact that Ace can counter Aokiji because of a heat advantage, but suddenly King needs to be as powerful as Akainu to have a heat advantage over the Mera despite it being outright stated in the manga that his fire is as hot as magma? Is it just cause Sabo's involved?


say whattttt?

I thought King was hakiless like Kidd?

Ace has advantage over Aokiji?
That’s news to me.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> There's absolutely no reason to scale them same way we don't scale every single fire attack to what Ace/Sabo are capable of just coz they are all flames.


Forgot to address this.

DF's may produce an element in more volume, or they can even project it with varying levels of force. Which is why we don't scale every fire attack the same, just like how I'm not saying that King's fire is overall as powerful as an attack from Akainu.

However, what we're talking about here is strictly heat. Don't think anyone has ever cared to argue that fire attacks produce different levels of heat, and don't see why they would since that's never really been a thing in the manga.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 21, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Akainu made a general comment about how magma was superior to fire instead of claiming that his advantage was only because his particular magma was more potent than other magma in One Piece.
> 
> This argument of yours is assuming beyond what we were given, and without a basis to my knowledge since, at the very least, I can't recall any time where it was said or implied that DF's produce superior versions of their element compared to what is found in nature. Especially since Akainu only used his fruit on its most basic level in this example.
> 
> Besides, pretty sure the only time Zoro encountered magma was when the SH's experienced Akainu's magma in punk hazard.


Regardless of how "general" Akainu's statement might have been, the fact is we simply cannot scale King to a person described as having the most lethal ability in the manga.

Really, you can't recall a time when DF users produce more potent elements than what is found in nature? How about Crocodile instantly dehydrating healthy full grown humans, or Enel using lightning to instantly melt and forge metal weapons, or the Smoker's smoke stalemating flames from Ace. I don't know about you, but those seem like clear instances of Logia users clearly performing well above what is ordinarily found in nature. Heck Caribou's body is said to have infinite space. Ever heard of a swamp with infinite space? And don't even get me started on Luffy.

Nature in one piece has never even begun to approach what their DF counterparts are able to produce especially in the hands of experienced users.
The SHs experienced what was essentially the after effect of Akainu and Aokiji's battle. Nothing indicates it comes close to the real thing.



Chip Skylark said:


> DF's may produce an element in more volume, or they can even project it with varying levels of force. Which is why we don't scale every fire attack the same, just like how I'm not saying that





Chip Skylark said:


> However, what we're talking about here is strictly heat. Don't think anyone has ever cared to argue that fire attacks produce different levels of heat, and don't see why they would since that's never really been a thing in the manga.


Nope. DF straight up blow away natural counterparts in terms of quality/extremity as well. Ace stopped a country from snowing ffs. No way is natural fire pulling that off. Also clearly heat lvls vary. Pearl for example produced heat that didn't affect or weaken his armour. Contrast that with Pretimeskip Sanji's DJ which could burn through steel like bodies far more durable than Pearl.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Steven (Jan 21, 2022)

Beast said:


> King got top tier Durability (above Kaidous)


He never tanked a Top-Tier attack,but sure...


Beast said:


> Top tier AP (magma attacks like Akainu)


Yeah no,Akainus Magma>Alberts "magma"

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Gyro said:


> Dressrosa Sabo or speculated current Sabo?



Current Sabo is captured or dead.


Ebitan said:


> Too bad, Zoro didn't even have ACoA, so he had to let Enma pull out his CoC to defeat King because that's his only option.



Zoro just didn't know he was tapping into it his own coc during the fight with kaidou. Also CoC >> coa.

So mute point on ya end son.

The King fight shows zoro fully understanding how to use enma to get the most out of his coc haki. Which is what Sobbin lacks. AP of a conquer. 

So no. King wins this EZ.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Great Potato (Jan 21, 2022)

Ziggy said:


> He never tanked a Top-Tier attack,but sure...
> 
> Yeah no,Akainus Magma>Alberts "magma"



Beast was being facetious, he doesn't actually think that

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## zoro (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Current Sabo is captured or dead.


Nope


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Gyro said:


> Nope



Off panel: yes.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## zoro (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Off panel: yes.


Nope still. This is fanfic until proven and there's more plausible scenarios


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 21, 2022)

Amol said:


> I will NOT give Akainu's feat to King.
> 
> It is not hotness that caused problem to Ace's fire but the nature of magma itself. It smothered the fire.
> 
> ...





Beast said:


> King got top tier Durability (above Kaidous) and Top tier AP (magma attacks like Akainu).
> 
> You gotta wonder how is he a mere YC1 and VC



This. Right here.
Indirect wank of the highest order.
This shit is mad.
Worse Part?
You then realize that in fact folks literally don't give a darn about feats truth be told.
Fodders statement, and reach based on King's statement (King supposedly stated that his durability was above Kaido's....)  in other words hype and portrayal are the tools used to come to these conclusions: AP on par with the fleet admiral, durability above the WSC.
Fuck, we're talking about the strongest character of the serie; King the 6th Yonko.

How Many Advanced CoC strikes Kaido has taken during this raid?
And he's not done yet, Kaido and Luffy will continue to hurt each other.
We're supposed to believe that King would still be standing if he was the one on the receiving end of Yamato and Luffy's attacks when Zoro's advanced CoC clearly had him shook?



Similarly Aka inu literally destroyed Ace and Whitebeard vital organs with his Magma, he took Ao Kiji's leg; but the fodders statement is enough to scale King to the fleet admiral DC?
Unfortunately, King only destroyed fodders with his magma like fire. How can anyone dare to scale that to Aka inu?



Shit, you can't make this shit up.
And when you logically call BS on such wild claims, you're considered as downplaying the First Mate.
Pure madness. I love the legion. Admirable audacity. Incredible double standard (future sight was overwanked remember)





Baseless claim one after the other.
So now King can bend fire users, heck fire logias' element too, i must have missed him messing with Sanji or Marco's fire. On top of Kaido like durability, and Aka inu like destructive power.



Albel was strong enough , no need to make shit up and create a new character: Wing the wildfire that can't be hurt by Marco, Katakuri and now Sabo, while literally able to control their fire.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Unless Sabo has something like COC striking. I don't see how he's damaging King.



We need more members who follow the story like this guy.


Gyro said:


> Nope still. This is fanfic until proven and there's more plausible scenarios



It's what the story left us with. 

Either Sobbin dead or captured. That's the cliff hanger. 

Far from fanfic son it's reality.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 21, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Unless Sabo has something like COC striking. I don't see how he's damaging King.



We are really  going to act like Marco, Sabo or Katakuri for example can't fucking hurt King.
And  then King is downplayed.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Optimistic 2


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 21, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Come on people.
> 
> 
> Surely we aren't actually going to give the feats of literally the most lethal fighter in the verse (and a top tier at that) to King.


Most lethal fighter in the series? I don’t see Shanks or Mihawk mentioned anywhere.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Don't bring Client into your wank fest.
> 
> Down play as much as you want, it's all you can do. Zoro was able to damage kaidou and without the level of adcoc Zoro NEEDED to put king down.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## zoro (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> We need more members who follow the story like this guy.
> 
> 
> It's what the story left us with.
> ...


Nope


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Gyro said:


> Nope



Anything other then that is your guess work.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 21, 2022)

@Oda Report :

So now Marco, Sabo and Katakuri are randoms?
Stating the obvious: ie Yonko First Mates or The revolutionaries chief of staff would fuck each other up is guess work.
But Yonko level durability King and Fleet admiral level AP Albel, Fire Bending King are pure facts.
You're shamelessly out there claiming that YFMs would fail to hurt a peer (when we've literally seen Marco do so on panel) , and you dare to talk about downplay.
If irony could kill.

I'll be damned if i get involved in this back and forth with you, not going to debate why it's ridiculous to suggest that King could get away from a fight with those guys without injuries when we're witnessing Law hurting Fucking Big Mom and Kaido without advanced CoC. Mama doesn't require advanced CoC to get hurt but King does?



Keep pushing that BS agenda: King has better durability than Big Mom and Kaido, guys with similar rank can't hurt him significantly either.





Not even going to waste my time with you.
Keep doing your thing buddy, no need for counter arguments with such laughable claims. This is obvious to any sane reader

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## zoro (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Anything other then that is your guess work.


Same goes to you and you're the one who brought it in the first place

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Gyro said:


> Same goes to you and you're the one who brought it in the first place



That we are left off on a cliff hanger? Yeah that's what the story gave us bud.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 21, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> We are really  going to act like Marco, Sabo or Katakuri for example can't fucking hurt King.
> And  then King is downplayed.



You seem to be ignoring a few things. Marco, if he did in fact hurt King (it didn't look like he did) would have because of the special properties of his flames; the same thing that allowed him to hurt Prometheus. However, that just would address the issue of King's flames, not actually hurting King himself; not even COC Zoro could hurt King without his flames until he had COC enhanced attacks. 

I'm lenient and saying Sabo -- but since you brought them up, Katakuri and Marco -- would need to have attack power like COC Zoro. Marco didn't, obviously. Otherwise, he wouldn't be simply holding off King and Queen who didn't even use their hybrids on him. Let alone their trump cards. 

Katakuri has shown he can use COC, but unlike the very strong (like Luffy and Zoro) cannot use it in actual battle. So no, Katakuri cannot deal meaningful damage to King. And just having Sabo/Marco/Katakuro having Advanced COC doesn't mean they can just easily take King, it just means they stand a chance of hurting him. 

Even with Advanced COC, Zoro still had exerted a lot of effort to take King and still couldn't touch the guy his flames were on defence mode. So there's that to consider. 

Sabo, as it was pointed can lose in the heat dept since King's flame heat can go to magma level at its peak. Though with awakening, I'm not sure for Sabo- but I don't speculate on that. 

Sabo's got more than the Mera Mera, he's also got Haki, some Haki fight style that involves Dragon Claw and plausibly Fishmen Karate. Ideally, Sabo should be trying to merge those attacks to try to stand a chance. If he tries to use approach some of his stans are suggesting, he'll get the Akainu-Ace treatement.


----------



## zoro (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> That we are left off on a cliff hanger? Yeah that's what the story gave us bud.


No, saying that current Sabo is captured


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> @Oda Report :
> 
> So now Marco, Sabo and Katakuri are randoms?



Yes because Sobbin doesn't have CoC like kata and kata at the same time doesn't have AdCoC like Zoro....

Marco didn't put any lasting damage on King when King blocked Marcos best with his face.

so yeah it's random that you bring them up. In a discussion that doesn't help Sobbin I his L against King.



Mylesime said:


> Stating the obvious: ie Yonko First Mates or The revolutionaries chief of staff would fuck each other up is guess work.



Ignoring what the story has given us up until this point is guess work.Sabo can't damage King, Marco failed to even hurt King while he was blocking with his face. 



Mylesime said:


> But Yonko level durability King and Fleet admiral level AP Albel, Fire Bending King are pure facts.



.........?



Mylesime said:


> You're shamelessly out there claiming that YFMs would fail to hurt a peer (when we've literally seen Marco do so on panel) , and you dare to talk about downplay.
> If irony could kill.



Marco didn't do jack to King or the weaker Queen. 



Mylesime said:


> I'll be damned if i get involved in this back and forth, not going to debate why it's ridiculous to suggest that King could get away from a fight with those guys without injuries when we're witnessing Law hurting Fucking Big Mom and Kaido without advanced CoC.



Thats Law. . . Not Sabo. .




Mylesime said:


> Not even going to waste my time with you.
> Keep doing your thing buddy.



Try again Kid.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Gyro said:


> No, saying that current Sabo is captured



Dead or captured point is that's where we are left off hanging on the cliff with him.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 21, 2022)

It is likely Sabo is captured. A key character like Sabo isn't likely to be killed off panel.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 21, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You seem to be ignoring a few things. Marco, if he did in fact hurt King (it didn't look like he did) would have because of the special properties of his flames; the same thing that allowed him to hurt Prometheus. However, that just would address the issue of King's flames, not actually hurting King himself; not even COC Zoro could hurt King without his flames until he had COC enhanced attacks.



I don't care about the means, each character has his own skills. Marco with shockwaves, Sabo with advanced CoA, doesn't matter.
These guys are hurting King.
Claiming that King can't be hurt because he is very durable is as silly as claiming that Katakuri can't be hurt because he's evasive and can predict the future.
These guys are hurting each other.
Don't need to know a damn thing about Ryokugyu to realize he's hurting every single top tier if he fights them, whatever are their skillsets.
Common sense, an important skill.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm lenient and saying Sabo -- but since you brought them up, Katakuri and Marco -- would need to have attack power like COC Zoro. Marco didn't, obviously. Otherwise, he wouldn't be simply holding off King and Queen who didn't even use their hybrids on him. Let alone their trump cards.



No they don't.
Zoro has obviously better AP , doesn't mean advanced CoC is needed to hurt King.
Marco hurt King on panel, it was a 2 vs 1, you're describing this in order to wank King.
Both characters are comparable, hence why King was unable to finish off Marco despite being backed up by a fellow commander.
That was an epic L, not the portrayal of someone that can't be significantly hurt by his opponent.
Not going to bother explaining why King is not getting out of a fight vs Marco unscathed.
There is no cure for wank.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Katakuri has shown he can use COC, but unlike the very strong (like Luffy and Zoro) cannot use it in actual battle. So no, Katakuri cannot deal meaningful damage to King. And just having Sabo/Marco/Katakuro having Advanced COC doesn't mean they can just easily take King, it just means they stand a chance of hurting him.


Did not say any of those guys could deal easily with King, i know Albel is strong.
Guess King can't tag Katakuri either since he has no future sight.
That claim is as ridiculous as the former.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even with Advanced COC, Zoro still had exerted a lot of effort to take King and still couldn't touch the guy his flames were on defence mode. So there's that to consider.



Zoro has his skillset, other characters theirs.
Law has no advanced CoC, his fruit allows him to hurt Big Mom, an advanced conqueror user, natural born destroyer.
Skills and abilities , once mastered to a certain level have always been showcased as effective.
Some are more mobile, other faster, others have better reflexes.
Zoro took down King in 15 minutes top, less if we start the count post advanced CoC,  because of his insane top tier AP (it was specially taxing in exchange tough)
Katakuri or Cracker fought Luffy for 10 hours , no, more.
King was shook once Advanced CoC got unleashed, he was vulnerable all the time:


I'm not going to bother explaining why King is not getting away unscathed facing guys this strong.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sabo, as it was pointed can lose in the heat dept since King's flame heat can go to magma level at its peak. Though with awakening, I'm not sure for Sabo- but I don't speculate on that.



No one knows how those two fire powers would interact.
Baseless claim one way or the other.
Sabo can hurt King, King can hurt Sabo. That's all i know.
Everything else is pure wank.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sabo's got more than the Mera Mera, he's also got Haki, some Haki fight style that involves Dragon Claw and plausibly Fishmen Karate. Ideally, Sabo should be trying to merge those attacks to try to stand a chance. If he tries to use approach some of his stans are suggesting, he'll get the Akainu-Ace treatement.



Baseless claim once again.
The two nullify most of the other fire attacks, the lower end techniques.
We have no clue regarding how their higher end techniques would match up, Sabo is not Ace, King not Aka inu.
Add advanced CoA to it (something Aka inu has, and Ace had not seemingly) , and Sabo can protect himself from King's power just like Zoro countered his explosion thanks to CoA. Something any objective reader is aware of.
I don't care about the specifics, it is pure headcanon either way.
Sabo and King can hurt each other. King is not shrugging off internal damages inflicted by Sabo.

It's debatable to state that King can beat Sabo, King is strong, even tough i disagree, Sabo has better hype and portrayal, or feats imo.
It's utterly ridiculous to claim that Sabo can't hurt King.
Zoro has top tier AP, King has great durability.
Doesn't mean fucking YFMs are unable to hurt King.
Not gonna bother debating that. That's pure indirect wank. I simply don't take seriously anyone audacious enough to come up with so much nonsense. That's it.
Common sense, and honesty, underestimated skills and qualities.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## zoro (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Dead or captured point is that's where we are left off hanging on the cliff with him.


Or neither

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Velocity (Jan 21, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is likely Sabo is captured. A key character like Sabo isn't likely to be killed off panel.


Right. He and the other Revolutionary commanders went to Mary Geoise to free Kuma and I assume they were successful, at the cost of Sabo's freedom.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Gyro said:


> Or neither



Until the story shows or mentions it. 

That's what we are left off with. A cliff hanger of Sabo doing what he does best being MIA or assumed dead. 

Lmao.


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> I don't care about the means, each character has his own skills. Marco with shockwaves, Sabo with advanced CoA, doesn't matter.
> These guys are hurting King.



This is sad.

Kata can't produce the ap Zoro has neither can Sabo or Marco.

Yet you want to pull a Naruto and just believe it, believe as hard as you can they have not shown the ability. 

.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## zoro (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Until the story shows or mentions it.
> 
> That's what we are left off with. A cliff hanger of Sabo doing what he does best being MIA or assumed dead.
> 
> Lmao.


No it goes the other way around, until you can show he's been captured there's no reason to assume he was


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> This is sad.
> 
> Kata can't produce the ap Zoro has neither can Sabo or Marco.
> 
> ...



This is sad.
King can't replicate the reflexes and CoO katakuri has showcased neither can Zoro nor Marco.

Yet you want to pull a Naruto and just believe it, believe as hard as you can they have not shown the ability to tag him.
They can't touch him nor Luffy.

Double standard and hypocrisy all over the place.
I've seen claims according to which King could manipulate Sabo's fire and i'm the man of faith and the believer? The guy pulling stuff out of my ass?
Because i dared claiming YFMs would hurt each other?

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Eustathios (Jan 21, 2022)

There's room for an argument that King takes this and then there's claiming King cannot even be injured by Sabo, which is ridiculous.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Captain Quincy (Jan 21, 2022)

Amol said:


> I will NOT give Akainu's feat to King.
> 
> It is not hotness that caused problem to Ace's fire but the nature of magma itself. It smothered the fire.
> 
> ...





Chip Skylark said:


> Akainu actually said that it was because his magma was hotter. Which is why he could literally ‘_burn_’ Ace and not just suffocate his flames like you claim here. Chapter 573.
> 
> Gotta do your due diligence before boldly insisting that people are either wanking a character, or using false-equivalents




In the official translation of 573 they never specify why Akainu can burn ace. All they say is a general magma power > fire power.

If something isn't magma then I wouldn't say it can burn fire (in One Piece), since there's no proof anything else can.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

A clown is someone who own words hold no weight. I.E. "I'm going to ignore you" yet the same joker is back here trying again like I told em to on command. Lmao



Mylesime said:


> This is sad.
> King can't replicate the reflexes and CoO katakuri has showcased neither can Zoro nor Marco.



Why are you talking as if WCI kata is a factor here....hell this thread is about ya boy Sabo who doesn't have the ap to put king down.  Period.




Mylesime said:


> Yet you want to pull a Naruto and just believe it, believe as hard as you can they have not shown the ability to tag him.
> They can't touch him nor Luffy.



No u is all u are doing here. If combat speed was an issue for zoro it would have been highlighted during the roof top fight.



Mylesime said:


> Double standard and hypocrisy all over the place.
> I've seen claims according to which King could manipulate Sabo's fire and i'm the man of faith and the believer? The guy pulling stuff out of my ass?
> Because i dared claiming YFMs would hurt each other?



That got nothing to do with me you are so random. It's depressing.  Stop trying to shoe horn my argument to others.


That's an appropriate mask you wear it with honor.

Try again Kid.


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> There's room for an argument that King takes this and then there's claiming King cannot even be injured by Sabo, which is ridiculous.



Sabo needs more muscle milk to put king down. Period. Fire is a joke to king.

So does Marco and kata. There ap is no wear near Zoros even the roof top version of Zoro before his full understanding of enma.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Regardless of how "general" Akainu's statement might have been, the fact is we simply cannot scale King to a person described as having the most lethal ability in the manga.
> 
> Really, you can't recall a time when DF users produce more potent elements than what is found in nature? How about Crocodile instantly dehydrating healthy full grown humans, or Enel using lightning to instantly melt and forge metal weapons, or the Smoker's smoke stalemating flames from Ace. I don't know about you, but those seem like clear instances of Logia users clearly performing well above what is ordinarily found in nature. Heck Caribou's body is said to have infinite space. Ever heard of a swamp with infinite space? And don't even get me started on Luffy.
> 
> Nature in one piece has never even begun to approach what their DF counterparts are able to produce especially in the hands of experienced users.


Dehydration was an attribute of his fruit separate from his sand element tho.

With Enel it was the application. Being able to concentrate the lightnings heat is a bit different than morphing it with a strike of lightning that lasts for an instant, and even natural lightning can melt steel. Of course if you could manipulate natural lightning you'd be able to do stuff like that.

Don’t all logias have infinite bodies?  Volume isn’t really an example of the elements strength.

And feel like you went back to comparing One Piece nature to real life nature again. Like Smoker's fruit is tangible, and Ace spoke as if their stalemate were the natural outcome of a clash between their elements. It wasn't anything extraordinary or unexpected because that's One Piece's normal.



Kroczilla said:


> The SHs experienced what was essentially the after effect of Akainu and Aokiji's battle. Nothing indicates it comes close to the real thing.


It was a direct product of his DF that we know is being permanently maintained. Hence the climate of the island being stuck that way. Not sure why anyone would assume that it wouldn't come close to the real thing considering the effect it's had on PH. Even the sea is still on fire. If his DF's effect were waning any then the island would show signs of returning to normal, but it's not. The island's climate should be indication in itself.


Kroczilla said:


> Nope. DF straight up blow away natural counterparts in terms of quality/extremity as well. Ace stopped a country from snowing ffs. No way is natural fire pulling that off. Also clearly heat lvls vary. Pearl for example produced heat that didn't affect or weaken his armour. Contrast that with Pretimeskip Sanji's DJ which could burn through steel like bodies far more durable than Pearl.


Ace stopping snow was stated to be a haki feat. Shanks pointed that out in the Ace novel.



Pearl's armor was also pretty extraordinary, with it being impervious to even canon balls. Not saying fire can't vary, but that's typically not a default assumption unless it's actually pointed out. Like Sanji's fire recently, or the topic of the discussion - King's fire.


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Current Sabo is captured or dead.
> 
> 
> Zoro just didn't know he was tapping into it his own coc during the fight with kaidou. Also CoC >> coa.
> ...


King was getting destroyed by CoC attacks, it doesn't proof that king would be immune to CoA that destroys him internally. CoC was probably even overkill for King to the point he had to go out of the way to dodge it.


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> King was getting destroyed by CoC attacks, it doesn't proof that king would be immune to CoA that destroys him internally. CoC was probably even overkill for King to the point he had to go out of the way to dodge it.



Zoro was able to damage and permanently scar kaidou, yet with out unlocking his full potential with enma couldn't hurt king. 

COA hasn't produced the same damage output as coc not even close. If coa could achieve the same damage output as coc then luffy wouldn't have needed coc for kaidou he just use coa.


----------



## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Jan 21, 2022)

I hope you guys know that King was beaten in minutes in real time after Zoro (on Mink medicine time limit) figure out ACoC.  

King is the least impressive YC1 by a pretty big margin, at least Katakuri has CoC and future sight.


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Jan 21, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Zoro was able to damage and permanently scar kaidou, yet with out unlocking his full potential with enma couldn't hurt king.
> 
> COA hasn't produced the same damage output as coc not even close. If coa could achieve the same damage output as coc then luffy wouldn't have needed coc for kaidou he just use coa.


He started hurting king after unlocking enma... King literally started dodging his attacks even with flames on and started blocking.

Zoro scared kaido with CoC, he only started using CoC against king halfway through the fight and from that point onwards King was getting destroyed.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Captain Quincy (Jan 21, 2022)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> I hope you guys know that King was beaten in minutes in real time after Zoro (on Mink medicine time limit) figure out ACoC.


Are you arguing against his stamina? Cuz King also fought the whole raid before that.


----------



## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Jan 21, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Are you arguing against his stamina? Cuz King also fought the whole raid before that.


He took less damage from Marco compare to Zoro on the rooftop, yet Zoro beats him in minutes after he figure out ACoC.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 21, 2022)

King was durable to such an extent that Zoro didn't feel there was a point in attacking him when his flames were on even after unlocking AdvCoC.



King was capable of taking AdvCoC attacks even without his flames on while still remaining pretty unnerved.



The fight ending shortly after Zoro got a giant buff doesn't somehow discredit King's prowess. He was still a character that a fresh Zoro couldn't wound even with his higher end attacks before the AdvCoC buff. Even after the buff King was still able to put up a decent challenge.

This King downplay about to make me start to Stan his character

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


----------



## Captain Quincy (Jan 21, 2022)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> He took less damage from Marco compare to Zoro on the rooftop, yet Zoro beats him in minutes after he figure out ACoC.


That doesn't change that King still fought the whole raid before that lol. He was fighting for a lot longer than a few minutes.

And he didn't even show any signs of tiring, he just got knocked out by Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 21, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> He started hurting king after unlocking enma... King literally started dodging his attacks even with flames on and started blocking.



Yet zoro didn't need to unlock enmas full potential against kaidou to damage him unlike with king who tanked an attack that kaidou didn't.



Ebitan said:


> Zoro scared kaido with CoC, he only started using CoC against king halfway through the fight and from that point onwards King was getting destroyed.



No. What damaged kaidou couldn't hurt king. Zoro unlock enma and still needed to see an opening to damage King.


----------



## gunchar (Jan 22, 2022)

Are we seriously randomly giving anyone who has something that shouldn't even be hotter than fire in the first place the ability to burn fire now, just cause Oda apparently don't really understands the elements and a freaking Top Tier with a fruit specifically highlighted for it's damage capabilities overpowered a guy tiers below himself?


----------



## blueframe01 (Jan 22, 2022)

Amol said:


> Boy King is really really one of the most wanked character on this board. The sheer absurd claims people make about this side villain is ridiculous.



He's been touched by Saint Zolo. So the wankery needs to be expanded onto him, despite being the worst YC1 to date

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Dehydration was an attribute of his fruit separate from his sand element tho.


His fruit quite literally makes him a sand elemental. The fact that he can do that only proves my point regarding the higher degree of potency shown by Logia users.


Chip Skylark said:


> With Enel it was the application. Being able to concentrate the lightnings heat is a bit different than morphing it with a strike of lightning that lasts for an instant, and even natural lightning can melt steel. Of course if you could manipulate natural lightning you'd be able to do stuff like that.


The point isn't application but rather potency. Enel can literally liquefy metal in an instant. Again, nothing in the natural world of One Piece suggests that regular lightning found in nature can replicate that level of potency.


Chip Skylark said:


> Don’t all logias have infinite bodies? Volume isn’t really an example of the elements strength


Nope. Infinite body is a skill set specific to Caribou's swamp swamp DF which allows him to fit a seemingly endless amount of objects in his human frame. Again, regular swamps have limits whereas Caribou's swamp body is described as being without such limits.


Chip Skylark said:


> And feel like you went back to comparing One Piece nature to real life nature again. Like Smoker's fruit is tangible, and Ace spoke as if their stalemate were the natural outcome of a clash between their elements. It wasn't anything extraordinary or unexpected because that's One Piece's normal.


First off, One Piece nature generally isn't all that different from irl. Also we have never seen smoke quite literally counter flames of equal volume whether in the One Piece verse or irl. That speaks quite clearly to potency. You could point to literally any DF and we can clearly see that the resulting ability is far more potent than what occurs naturally. Ffs, Kalifa with her soap DF literally removes inertia from her opponents. That's not something that natural occurs when One Piece characters take baths. Seriously, every single DF you can think off straight up outperforms it's natural counterpart in potency.


Chip Skylark said:


> It was a direct product of his DF that we know is being permanently maintained. Hence the climate of the island being stuck that way. Not sure why anyone would assume that it wouldn't come close to the real thing considering the effect it's had on PH. Even the sea is still on fire. If his DF's effect were waning any then the island would show signs of returning to normal, but it's not. The island's climate should be indication in itself.


We know that it was caused by his DF, but again that doesn't necessarily mean they share the same degree of potency especially years later. Aokiji's ice for example wasn't straight up shattering everyone on the icy part of the island despite the fact that we know he can easily produce ice capable of those levels of potency. Yes, Akainu made his side of the island extreme, but that's a far cry from saying it's just as potent as his DF, same was it would be a reach to say that all of Crocodile's sand have the same potency in dehydrating opponents compared with his touch.


Chip Skylark said:


> Ace stopping snow was stated to be a haki feat. Shanks pointed that out in the Ace novel.
> 
> 
> 
> Pearl's armor was also pretty extraordinary, with it being impervious to even canon balls. Not saying fire can't vary, but that's typically not a default assumption unless it's actually pointed out. Like Sanji's fire


Tbh I don't quite buy that. I'm sure haki had something to do with it, but if it came down to Haki, Shanks and Beckman would absolutely shit on Ace and neither were putting a pause on the weather. 

Armour capable of stopping Canon is something that a fodder in Franky's family was using, same armour got shattered by W7 Luffy in base. Tekkai is clearly far superior to that stuff as Luffy needed G2 to reliably breach it and which DJ could effectively breach using heat. Heat/Fire quite clearly varies. There's way too many proof of this including Akainu's magma burning fire, Sanji literally increasing his heat to greater lvls, the Pearl/Tekkai comparisons etc.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2022)

Also what's this I'm hearing about "King downplay"?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Amol (Jan 22, 2022)

blueframe01 said:


> He's been touched by Saint Zolo. So the wankery needs to be expanded onto him, despite being the worst YC1 to date


Yeah it is not even restricted to King.
In other thread there are actually people who think Pica can beat Jack.

Zoro stans takes whole wanking of Zoro to this cult like mentality. Anything to wank Zoro. That means wanking his villains too.

It is quite pathetic tbh. One should never have that obsessive level of attachment to a fictional character.


Kroczilla said:


> Also what's this I'm hearing about "King downplay"?


Don't you know?
If you don't think King has Kaido level durability and Akainu level magma lethality, you are obviously downplaying him. 


The sheer mental gymnastics these people would do for their nonsensical wanking is hilarious.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


----------



## Chip Skylark (Jan 22, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> His fruit quite literally makes him a sand elemental. The fact that he can do that only proves my point regarding the higher degree of potency shown by Logia users.


It was explained during Impel Down that this aspect of his ability is to absorb moisture with his right hand. He's a sand logia, but that doesn't mean that part of his ability is a product of sand. He's not using sand at all to accomplish that.


Kroczilla said:


> The point isn't application but rather potency. Enel can literally liquefy metal in an instant. Again, nothing in the natural world of One Piece suggests that regular lightning found in nature can replicate that level of potency.


You're not actually addressing what I said about how Enel being able to concentrate his lightning would naturally allow lightning that can already melt steel to accomplish such a feat. Just kinda reiterated what you already said without making any effort to actually refute my point.


Kroczilla said:


> Nope. Infinite body is a skill set specific to Caribou's swamp swamp DF which allows him to fit a seemingly endless amount of objects in his human frame. Again, regular swamps have limits whereas Caribou's swamp body is described as being without such limits.


That point wasn't just something I made up. Any logia that can store stuff in their body has an infinite amount of space within their elemental body. Look at Teach as another example. This is because logia's in general can produce an infinite amount of their element. Ace doesn't get the quantity of a single forest fire, just like how Akainu doesn't get the quantity of a single volcano, and Caribou doesn't get the quantity of a single swamp. Weird to make volume about strength in the first place.


Kroczilla said:


> First off, One Piece nature generally isn't all that different from irl. Also we have never seen smoke quite literally counter flames of equal volume whether in the One Piece verse or irl. That speaks quite clearly to potency. You could point to literally any DF and we can clearly see that the resulting ability is far more potent than what occurs naturally. Ffs, Kalifa with her soap DF literally removes inertia from her opponents. That's not something that natural occurs when One Piece characters take baths. Seriously, every single DF you can think off straight up outperforms it's natural counterpart in potency.


One Piece nature being different is kind of a central theme of the One Piece world. Especially in the New World. This has been so heavily emphasized that I imagine my just saying that should remind you of how crazy nature in One Piece is meant to be.

There's never been another situation where we would've had the opportunity to see that. It's not like we saw someone else try to counter flames with smoke, and it failed. The absence of other examples wouldn't somehow speak to the potency.

Kalifa isn't even a logia. The argument was about whether or not logia's exceed their natural counterpart since it's been said that their fruit is derived from nature. Which is something pointed out in both a SBS by Oda, and the literal meaning of the word "Logia".


Kroczilla said:


> We know that it was caused by his DF, but again that doesn't necessarily mean they share the same degree of potency especially years later. Aokiji's ice for example wasn't straight up shattering everyone on the icy part of the island despite the fact that we know he can easily produce ice capable of those levels of potency. Yes, Akainu made his side of the island extreme, but that's a far cry from saying it's just as potent as his DF, same was it would be a reach to say that all of Crocodile's sand have the same potency in dehydrating opponents compared with his touch.


? Weird example. Aokiji's ice doesn't shatter people, Aokiji directly freezing them to the core does. 

Like I pointed out, it's a bit different from other examples since their element has clearly been permanently maintained on the island. The passage of time evidently hasn't impacted the potency of what they produced during that fight. This is something we can clearly see just by looking at Punk Hazard. Also I think it goes without question that the effect was a result of their awakening, so there shouldn't be much doubt about whether or not it carries the true potency of their DF. It's not just regular scattered collateral, so we shouldn't treat it like that.


Kroczilla said:


> Tbh I don't quite buy that. I'm sure haki had something to do with it, but if it came down to Haki, Shanks and Beckman would absolutely shit on Ace and neither were putting a pause on the weather.


You gotta read the novel, or even just the wiki if you don't feel like digging that much. What I posted was just an excerpt from the summary. They explained in the novel that Ace's haki was fiery in nature. Meaning haki can have different attributes in different people. Which is why everyone doesn't go around stopping snow. Not everyone has haki that's fiery in nature.

It's weird that this wasn't explained in the manga, but as far as I know the novel is also a canon source. 


Kroczilla said:


> Armour capable of stopping Canon is something that a fodder in Franky's family was using, same armour got shattered by W7 Luffy in base. Tekkai is clearly far superior to that stuff as Luffy needed G2 to reliably breach it and which DJ could effectively breach using heat. Heat/Fire quite clearly varies. There's way too many proof of this including Akainu's magma burning fire, Sanji literally increasing his heat to greater lvls, the Pearl/Tekkai comparisons etc.


Tekkai doesn't literally turn their bodies into steel, it just makes them as hard as steel. That was really your example of Sanji melting steel?

And again, I never said that heat/fire doesn't vary. My whole point is literally based around heat/fire varying. What I'm arguing against is that being a natural assumption without basis. There are plenty of times where it's been emphasized that attacks produce more heat, but that doesn't mean it's the default assumption for every flame attack. Which is why we've been debating the support for your belief that DF's are naturally more potent than their natural counterpart.


Kroczilla said:


> Also what's this I'm hearing about "King downplay"?


Y'all got people out here arguing that King is the weakest YC1 because he was beaten shortly after Zoro unlocked AdvCoC, that he's limited without his flames, etc. etc. 

There's a lot of pretty blatant downplay going on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> It was explained during Impel Down that this aspect of his ability is to absorb moisture with his right hand. He's a sand logia, but that doesn't mean that part of his ability is a product of sand. He's not using sand at all to accomplish that.


So is the argument here that Crocodile's moisture absorption is not linked at all to his having consumed a sand DF? Coz if not, I don't think a point has been made here.


Chip Skylark said:


> You're not actually addressing what I said about how Enel being able to concentrate his lightning would naturally allow lightning that can already melt steel to accomplish such a feat. Just kinda reiterated what you already said without making any effort to actually refute my point.


The point is that he is melting steel. It's that he can perform the feat instantaneously. Also given how the emphasis has been on nature within the One Piece verse, I don't recall lightning straight up melting iron or anything like that in the verse. 


Chip Skylark said:


> That point wasn't just something I made up. Any logia that can store stuff in their body has an infinite amount of space within their elemental body. Look at Teach as another example. This is because logia's in general can produce an infinite amount of their element. Ace doesn't get the quantity of a single forest fire, just like how Akainu doesn't get the quantity of a single volcano, and Caribou doesn't get the quantity of a single swamp. Weird to make volume about strength in the first place


No. Just No. Logias can generally produce their elements in large quantities. However Caribou is the only one stated so far to have an infinite amount of space within his body as he is literally a swamp. He is the only one who has ever been stated to have that attribute which makes sense because he is a swamp.

Swamps ordinarily absorb stuff into them (or rather things tend to sink into them). Caribou's DF took that attribute up to a completely different level. Bringing up Teach in its way sort of proves my point as he is literally doing something akin to what can't ordinarily be found in nature (creating darkness dense enough to replicate a black hole). 


Chip Skylark said:


> One Piece nature being different is kind of a central theme of the One Piece world. Especially in the New World. This has been so heavily emphasized that I imagine my just saying that should remind you of how crazy nature in One Piece is meant to be.


One Piece Weather is different particularly in the grandline. However, save for some more fantastically elements like cloud islands, nature itself (as in elements) is fairly consistent with what we experience irl.


Chip Skylark said:


> There's never been another situation where we would've had the opportunity to see that. It's not like we saw someone else try to counter flames with smoke, and it failed. The absence of other examples wouldn't somehow speak to the potency.


The absence of that evidence effectively means that there is no ground for you to stand on here. We can't just assume that evidence might exist where theirs nothing to imply that it does in this particular case. Especially given all the times we have shit set on fire including ironically, the current arc.


Chip Skylark said:


> Kalifa isn't even a logia. The argument was about whether or not logia's exceed their natural counterpart since it's been said that their fruit is derived from nature. Which is something pointed out in both a SBS by Oda, and the literal meaning of the word "Logia".


I'm pointing out that this attribute isn't restricted to Logia but extends to all DFs as they constantly outperform their natural counterpart to ridiculous degrees. Also saying that Logia DF abilities are derived from nature and Saying that they outperform nature ... those statements aren't mutually exclusive, particularly in fiction where there are loads of characters who similarly derive their ability from nature but clearly have a greater degree of potency in its use.


Chip Skylark said:


> ? Weird example. Aokiji's ice doesn't shatter people, Aokiji directly freezing them to the core does.


... Which in turn enables them to be shattered.


Chip Skylark said:


> Like I pointed out, it's a bit different from other examples since their element has clearly been permanently maintained on the island. The passage of time evidently hasn't impacted the potency of what they produced during that fight. This is something we can clearly see just by looking at Punk Hazard.


Regardless of what the potency is on Punk Hazard, we know for a fact that the admirals involved can put out more potent stuffs coz we have seen them do just that. Akainu's magma burnt Ace and melts steel just from it getting within an inch of his magma fist. Or the aforementioned example of Aokiji's ice freezing people to their core as opposed to ice part of the island where the cold was basically more of a minor nuisance. 

Yes, they changed the weather of the island forever. But it doesn't mean that the conditions of the island reflect true potency of their respective abilities.


Chip Skylark said:


> Also I think it goes without question that the effect was a result of their awakening, so there shouldn't be much doubt about whether or not it carries the true potency of their DF. It's not just regular scattered collateral, so we shouldn't treat it like that.


See above.


Chip Skylark said:


> You gotta read the novel, or even just the wiki if you don't feel like digging that much. What I posted was just an excerpt from the summary. They explained in the novel that Ace's haki was fiery in nature. Meaning haki can have different attributes in different people. Which is why everyone doesn't go around stopping snow. Not everyone has haki that's fiery in nature.
> 
> It's weird that this wasn't explained in the manga, but as far as I know the novel is also a canon source.


That is interesting but frankly brings up more questions. For example, how exactly did Ace's haki take on its fiery nature? One would think that that would be a reflection of his fiery DF, No? 




Chip Skylark said:


> Tekkai doesn't literally turn their bodies into steel, it just makes them as hard as steel. That was really your example of Sanji melting steel?


Tekkai allows their bodies take on attributes of steel, same way Kami-e  grants it attributes similar to paper. While using Tekkai, they are functional steel like. 


Chip Skylark said:


> What I'm arguing against is that being a natural assumption without basis. There are plenty of times where it's been emphasized that attacks produce more heat, but that doesn't mean it's the default assumption for every flame attack. Which is why we've been debating the support for your belief that DF's are naturally more potent than their natural counterpart


I don't think it's the default assumption that X is hotter than Y. If anything it's quite the opposite. We can't conclude that King's flame is as hot as Akainu's based on what could at best be described as a vague reference. Also pretty sure I have pointed enough examples to show that DFs including Logias are more potent than any counterparts found in nature.


Chip Skylark said:


> Y'all got people out here arguing that King is the weakest YC1 because he was beaten shortly after Zoro unlocked AdvCoC, that he's limited without his flames, etc. etc.
> 
> There's a lot of pretty blatant downplay going on


Yeah, a few folks are trolling. Likely in response to the ludicrous belief that King can match Akainu's potency.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

FMs can’t hurt king and king can replicate akainu level attack power? Man if Luffy doesn’t whoop kaido bad zoro might be the new captain

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2022)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> I hope you guys know that King was beaten in minutes in real time after Zoro (on Mink medicine time limit) figure out ACoC.
> 
> King is the least impressive YC1 by a pretty big margin, at least Katakuri has CoC and future sight.



You're acting like Big Mom and Kaido won't be defeated within minutes after the latest power-ups   

So Kaido too is the least impressive Yonko?

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

So y’all really think zoro would mid sabo?


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> So y’all really think zoro would mid sabo?



Zoro can cut any mera based attack, his haki is superior to Sabo's and his feats are far more impressive as thing stand now. Zoro would definitely beat him. His portrayal of second in command among the revos isn't helping him either.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Zoro can cut any mera based attack, his haki is superior to Sabo's and his feats are far more impressive as thing stand now. Zoro would definitely beat him. His portrayal of second in command among the revos isn't helping him either.


Zoro beating sabo is completely different than mid. I suspect they’re the same basic level. Thinking zoro would win is a reasonable position. Thinking he would mid diff is not.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Zoro beating sabo is completely different than mid. I suspect they’re the same basic level. Thinking zoro would win is a reasonable position. Thinking he would mid diff is not.



No idea where you got mid diff from. Most people that believe Zoro beats Sabo would have it as a high diff fight, which should normally be higher but since Zoro counters the whole mera arsenal and his Haki is more impressive it's a solid high diff. King being capable of burning fire with his magma fire is also a good match-up advantage for him to an even bigger extent, Zoro just counters the fire but King would burn Sabo's body with the magma.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> No idea where you got mid diff from. Most people that believe Zoro beats Sabo would have it as a high diff fight, which should normally be higher but since Zoro counters the whole mera arsenal and his Haki is more impressive it's a solid high diff. King being capable of burning fire with his magma fire is also a good match-up advantage for him to an even bigger extent, Zoro just counters the fire but King would burn Sabo's body with the magma.


Current zoro returned to full health is beating king mid diff. He demolished him once he started using adcoc. Even with a supposed match up advantage for king the gap should be too big for sabo to lose. Unless of course sabo is considerably weaker than zoro. Take your pic be wrong about this supposed match up advantage or be wrong about zoro and sabo comparison. Either way you’re  wrong.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Current zoro returned to full health is beating king mid diff. He demolished him once he started using adcoc. Even with a supposed match up advantage for king the gap should be too big for sabo to lose. Unless of course sabo is considerably weaker than zoro. Take your pic be wrong about this supposed match up advantage or be wrong about zoro and sabo comparison. Either way you’re  wrong.



Don't force your opinion on others. Healthy current Zoro high diffs Sabo and King. If he mid diffs them he's about as strong as admirals and yonkou, which not even current Luffy is when he is healthy. Yonko/Admirals > Luffy > Zoro > Sabo = King. King beats Sabo with the massive match-up advantage that fire isn't hurting him and his magma burns the mera aswell as his immense durability advantage.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Beast (Jan 22, 2022)

Zoro high diff King?

How?
He literally just took a power up to beat him and is now sleeping face down.
At least have the respect to wait till Zoro recovers and we move on the next arc.

Wano hasn’t finished and already Zoro, Sanji and every SH is being wanked as if they all haven’t had extreme diff fights and either a power up or new abilities altogether bar Jinbe.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

Beast said:


> Zoro high diff King?
> 
> How?
> He literally just took a power up to beat him and is now sleeping face down.
> ...


If zoro started off with acoc he doesn’t need extreme diff and you know that


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Don't force your opinion on others. Healthy current Zoro high diffs Sabo and King. If he mid diffs them he's about as strong as admirals and yonkou, which not even current Luffy is when he is healthy. *Yonko/Admirals > Luffy > Zoro > Sabo = King*. King beats Sabo with the massive match-up advantage that fire isn't hurting him and his magma burns the mera aswell as his immense durability advantage.


Don’t force your opinion on others


----------



## Beast (Jan 22, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> If zoro started off with acoc he doesn’t need extreme diff and you know that


Should’ve would’ve could’ve… we saw Zoro get a power up in haki and swordsmanship literally less then 5 chapters ago. Yet somehow he jumped a whole tier, same thing happening to Sanji and Luffy pf course, obviously a lot more since it’s Zoro.

Zoro landed his new powered up attack (maybe mode now given its a new swordsmanship style) and was literally knocked out tired a panel or two after.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

Beast said:


> Should’ve would’ve could’ve… we saw Zoro get a power up in haki and swordsmanship literally less then 5 chapters ago. Yet somehow he jumped a whole tier, same thing happening to Sanji and Luffy pf course, obviously a lot more since it’s Zoro.
> 
> Zoro landed his new powered up attack (maybe mode now given its a new swordsmanship style) and was literally knocked out tired a panel or two after.


He was already beat to shit in this discussion I can’t imagine people are comparing beat up adcoc zoro to current sabo. In your quest to defend the forum against zoro wank, so honorable, you end up it in some weird positions. If zoro and king ate a senzu bean at the end of their fight and did it all over again do you think it would require the same level of difficulty, yes or no?


----------



## Beast (Jan 22, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> He was already beat to shit in this discussion I can’t imagine people are comparing beat up adcoc zoro to current sabo. In your quest to defend the forum against zoro wank, so honorable, you end up it in some weird positions. If zoro and king ate a senzu bean at the end of their fight and did it all over again do you think it would require the same level of difficulty, yes or no?


Beat up?
You mean drugged Zoro? That was given extra time to fight without pain in exchange for DOUBLE the pain AFTER it wears off?
This ain’t no dragon ball bruh and that’s not how it works, Zoro first has to recover and that ain’t happening till the end of wano, maybe the arc after considering the damage. So No, your DBZ logic doesn’t stand.

some SSG logic up in this bitch.


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 22, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> King's strongest fires are as hot as magma which is canonically superior to Sabo's flames.


"Fire Dragon Emperor
*Omori Karyudon* (御守火龍皇おおもりかりゅうどん _Ōmori Karyūdon_, literally meaning "Assisting Guardian Fire Dragon Emperor"

Both of king strongest attacks are fire base, its not magma at all. Sabo is fire therefore all of king strongest moves are useless against him.  King attacks were getting evaded or just endured by zoro. Don't see why sabo cant dodge his attacks.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

Beast said:


> Beat up?
> You mean drugged Zoro? That was given extra time to fight without pain in exchange for DOUBLE the pain AFTER it wears off?
> This ain’t no dragon ball bruh and that’s not how it works, Zoro first has to recover and that ain’t happening till the end of wano, maybe the arc after considering the damage. So No, your DBZ logic doesn’t stand.
> 
> some SSG logic up in this bitch.


Answer the question. Yes or no?


----------



## Beast (Jan 22, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Answer the question


Zoro eats a SB and he wakes up stronger then roof top Luffy.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 22, 2022)

Beast said:


> Zoro eats a SB and he wakes up stronger then roof top Luffy.


Would you be more willing to answer honestly if I altered the scenario? If at the end of the fight they were magically restored to completely fresh would zoro need the same level of difficulty to win, yes or no?


----------



## Sherlōck (Jan 22, 2022)

Sabo was King level back in DR. If it was King Vs DR Sabo then I would have said either way extreme difficulty. 

But in DR Sabo gained a new fruit, fought Fujitora, fought Burgess, trained in Baltigo, fought again in MG. If anything Sabo is old Ray level now.

Current Sabo destroys King.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jan 22, 2022)

Sherlōck said:


> Sabo was King level back in DR. If it was King Vs DR Sabo then I would have said either way extreme difficulty.
> 
> But in DR Sabo gained a new fruit, fought Fujitora, fought Burgess, trained in Baltigo, fought again in MG. If anything Sabo is old Ray level now.
> 
> Current Sabo destroys King.


Define “destroys”. What’s the diff?


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 22, 2022)

Zoro on the rooft top out classes Sobbin.

King out classed that version of Zoro, Sobbin loses, he doesn't have the ap to put king down.


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 22, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> "Fire Dragon Emperor
> *Omori Karyudon* (御守火龍皇おおもりかりゅうどん _Ōmori Karyūdon_, literally meaning "Assisting Guardian Fire Dragon Emperor"
> 
> Both of king strongest attacks are fire base, its not magma at all. Sabo is fire therefore all of king strongest moves are useless against him.  King attacks were getting evaded or just endured by zoro. Don't see why sabo cant dodge his attacks.



Didn't Zoro who was facing King state his flames where like magma?

Plus Zoros combat reflexes and haki durability  > Sabo.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 23, 2022)

It should be noted that while Zoro has a matchup advantage against Fire users,he still need to be able to react and use Fox fire style to deal with their attacks.

Fire users like Fire benders are able to change the shape of their attacks and attack from multiple directions at once like Ace and his Entei.

If Sabo fights smart with his fire powers,there is a high probability Zoro will not be able to deal with them with a straight forward style like the Foxfire one.

OT: Attacks like Tempura Udon and Tankyudon are probably never landing on Sabo with logia shapeshifting.
King would need Good coo to distinguish between Sabo's logia form and his own fire surrounding the battle field during large scale attacks.

Sabo should have haki on par with King and be able to clash just fine with him in CqC with his pipe.

Dragon Breath searches the core of objects and destroys them from the inside so it should atleast do some damage to King.

King in speed mode should be a problem for Sabo though and test his reactions to an extreme level.

Fight probably ends with an imperior Flame dragon against a Dragon flame king after acknowledging each other's threat level; Whoever has the strongest attack wins.

The above is King against Dressrossa Sabo,Current Sabo should be easily stronger.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 23, 2022)

Going with Sabo. He got stronger after Dressrosa.


----------



## Beast (Jan 23, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Would you be more willing to answer honestly if I altered the scenario? If at the end of the fight they were magically restored to completely fresh would zoro need the same level of difficulty to win, yes or no?


Yes.., because Oda writes OP and not DBZ and he already had Zoro go extreme diff to beat King in wano, nothing more and nothing less, these what if scenarios are baseless headcannons people want run around with… go read the rules or something, Zoro went all out and overcame his limits, so why would I need to imagine anything more then what he has shown on panel?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Sherlōck (Jan 23, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Define “destroys”. What’s the diff?


Sabo will have 40% HP minimum at the end of the fight. 

Might be more.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Enies Lobby (Jan 23, 2022)

King wins extreme diff


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 23, 2022)

Beast said:


> Yes.., because Oda writes OP and not DBZ and he already had Zoro go extreme diff to beat King in wano, nothing more and nothing less, these what if scenarios are baseless headcannons people want run around with… go read the rules or something, Zoro went all out and overcame his limits, so why would I need to imagine anything more then what he has shown on panel?


This thread is entirely headcanon as sabo and king have never fought. We have to do a little headcanon around here for this to work. Anyway we can stop I get you’re dodging the question.


----------



## Beast (Jan 23, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> *This thread is entirely headcanon as sabo and king have never fought. *We have to do a little headcanon around here for this to work. Anyway we can stop I get you’re dodging the question.


Not how it works for one.

and truthfully, the reason I’m dodging is because the Zoro you speak of isn’t in OP.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 23, 2022)

Beast said:


> Not how it works for one.
> 
> and truthfully, the reason I’m dodging is because the Zoro you speak of isn’t in OP.


Yes it does it’s headcanon and does matter. Once we can establish that zoro can win pretty handily it shows how ridiculous it is to argue king wins this.


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 23, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Going with Sabo. He got stronger after Dressrosa.



Not strong enough.

Sabo fire can't hurt King, because King is a lunarian.

Sabo haki isn't no where near Zoros on the rooftop to be able to damage kaidou.

Zoro needed an ap boost (yes after scaring kaidou) to be able to put king down. Zoro still needed to wait for an opening to do so.

Sabo loses. Sabo only wins because of popularity like usual on OL or OB.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 23, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> I don't care about the means, each character has his own skills. Marco with shockwaves, Sabo with advanced CoA, doesn't matter.
> These guys are hurting King.
> Claiming that King can't be hurt because he is very durable is as silly as claiming that Katakuri can't be hurt because he's evasive and can predict the future.
> These guys are hurting each other.
> ...




Common sense would tell you Sabo, with what we know so far, has no way of beating King, yet here we are.

It doesn't matter how you personally rate those characters' skills. They aren't hurting King because you want them to.

Katakuri wasn't hurt by Luffy until Luffy able to match his AdvCoO, but during the fight, Kata still stated Luffy was weaker/slower than him showing there was still scope for stronger foes to beat him; Luffy even showed AdvCoO can be useless against fast enough foes. King, is another level altogether, Zoro actually used AdvCoA and it failed; as others have pointed out even with AdvCoC Zoro saw no point in attacking King in his fire defence.

Marco barely pushed King, and that's a top tier WB commander. Again, just 'cause some fans want something to be the case doesn't mean it will be. If certain fans had their way with the scaling. Sabo should've performed much better against Fujutora since he fought him in Dressrosa- but really Fujitora probably could take Sabo since it was indicated he held back and with some backup to handle Sabo's backup, Sabo did indeed lose.

We may like some of these guys, but it doesn't mean they'll automatically get the one up over King just 'cause King was Zoro's opponent. That undermines Zoro's power up and the Lunarian hype.



> No they don't.
> Zoro has obviously better AP , doesn't mean advanced CoC is needed to hurt King.
> Marco hurt King on panel, it was a 2 vs 1, you're describing this in order to wank King.
> Both characters are comparable, hence why King was unable to finish off Marco despite being backed up by a fellow commander.
> ...



Clearly, they do. I didn't say COC is a must to hurt King, they would require some sort of attack power on that level. Which apparently Marco didn't seem to have. Marco hurt King, really?  I guess that's why we saw King's suit rip, King go hybrid and use all these other attacks he used on Zoro. In fact, it is probably why Queen went serious too and even busted out the Germa attacks too.

The only wank here is the Marco, tho at this point its the Marco camp trying to console themselves with everything we know now.



> Did not say any of those guys could deal easily with King, i know Albel is strong.
> Guess King can't tag Katakuri either since he has no future sight.
> That claim is as ridiculous as the former.



King is fast enough to tag Katakuri. Luffy showed via his fight with Kaido that even if you can see the future, a foe can still be fast enough, which would still be the case here. Even when Snakeman was used, the only reason Luffy couldn't consistently hit Kata was that Kata was just that bit _faster _which wouldn't be the issue for King. Trying to be facetious to force false equivalences is unbecoming. 



> Zoro has his skillset, other characters theirs.
> Law has no advanced CoC, his fruit allows him to hurt Big Mom, an advanced conqueror user, natural born destroyer.
> Skills and abilities , once mastered to a certain level have always been showcased as effective.
> Some are more mobile, other faster, others have better reflexes.
> ...



You're choosing to omit lots of details here. 

Law had this ability once he awakened his fruit which itself can be likened to advanced applications of Haki in some respects. 

Zoro still exerted lots of effort as we can see the chapter, it wasn't tag-tag-tag done. He saw there were no points in attacking and he even added a stronger layer to his fighting style. 

You're also reading into details that are not there. He didn't ask why he was afraid of his flames *despite fire mode being there *he just asked why he was afraid of his attacks. If you bother reading the whole chapter you will notice Zoro *explicitly states *there is no point in attacking when King has the flames on and only bothers attacking him when he's fast i.e. doesn't have his flames on. 




> No one knows how those two fire powers would interact.
> Baseless claim one way or the other.
> Sabo can hurt King, King can hurt Sabo. That's all i know.
> Everything else is pure wank.



The only baseless claims I've seen have been from you. And what's more suspect, you've omitted details and been cutting out very key details to paint different pictures, for example, using a weaker Luffy fighting Cracker for a longer time (when Luffy was being Luffy for most of it) and Katakuri for a long time while Zoro fought King for a short time to make it seem like Zoro took less effort to fight King. By your logic, we should say it's less effort for Luffy to fight Kaido. 

We saw Ace's flame lose out to Akainu's magma because the latter was *hotter *than the former. Wank is you trying to deny the obvious. If King's flames can become hotter than Sabo's, then the outcome would be obvious. If Sabo will rely on the Mera Mera, and with this info we know, then this battle's outcome is already decided.



> Baseless claim once again.
> The two nullify most of the other fire attacks, the lower end techniques.
> We have no clue regarding how their higher end techniques would match up, Sabo is not Ace, King not Aka inu.
> Add advanced CoA to it (something Aka inu has, and Ace had not seemingly) , and Sabo can protect himself from King's power just like Zoro countered his explosion thanks to CoA. Something any objective reader is aware of.
> ...



We know by know Ace likely had some Haki, why he didn't use it, well its not like Akainu gave him much time to think (nor did he seem to think he'd jump in front of Luffy). 

We know how the higher ends would go, Akainu literally told us Ace's fire lost because his magma was hotter and you want us to pretend Sabo's flames won't lose to King's flames which can go hotter for no reason... talk about special pleasing. 

Sabo could protect himself, but then again, King could protect himself too. We know King has what it takes to have to hurt Sabo. But you want us to pretend Sabo can hurt King based on what we have seen. You won't say, but you feel it. That is just silly. I, at least gave him the benefit of the doubt of some Haki style based on what he used Dragon Claw from or Fishermen Karate based on what we saw and some flashback training scenes. 

But you, you seem to want us to say Sabo can hurt King because its Sabo.  



> It's debatable to state that King can beat Sabo, King is strong, even tough i disagree, Sabo has better hype and portrayal, or feats imo.
> It's utterly ridiculous to claim that Sabo can't hurt King.
> Zoro has top tier AP, King has great durability.
> Doesn't mean fucking YFMs are unable to hurt King.
> ...



Ah, you're basing it off some tier system in your head that you want to enforce. Nothing based on any actual substance-- your approach makes sense now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 23, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> King was durable to such an extent that Zoro didn't feel there was a point in attacking him when his flames were on even after unlocking AdvCoC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Imagine that, us simply pointing some basic things makes us look like stans or King wankers.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 23, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Didn't Zoro who was facing King state his flames where like magma?
> 
> Plus Zoros combat reflexes and haki durability  > Sabo.


Yes but oda and king named their attacks with the words fire/flames nothing to do with magma.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 23, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Yes but oda and king named their attacks with the words fire/flames nothing to do with magma.



The part Zoro literally said King's Imperial Flaming Wings are like magma. That's how hot King can make his flames. This is not saying King can make magma, more like his flame can be as hot as magma. With everything we know so far, it seems to be linked to King's race and their capabilities. Hence why we've been introduced to just one and why the government are willing to pay more than most pirates bounty just for information on the location of one.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 23, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The part Zoro literally said King's Imperial Flaming Wings are like magma. That's how hot King can make his flames. This is not saying King can make magma, more like his flame can be as hot as magma. With everything we know so far, it seems to be linked to King's race and their capabilities. Hence why we've been introduced to just one and why the government are willing to pay more than most pirates bounty just for information on the location of one.


Mera mera no mi name is literally flame flame fruit so  king flames attacks are useless against it. I know its as hot as magma. But it isn't magma its just flames thats what the attack is called.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 23, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Mera mera no mi name is literally flame flame fruit so  king flames attacks are useless against it. I know its as hot as magma. But it isn't magma its just flames thats what the attack is called.



King can make his flames hotter than Ace could canonically do, which would provide him with a huge advantage. We have no reason to believe Sabo could make the flames hotter than Ace, so that gives the King an advantage there.

Also, these aren't normal flames where King is using a flamethrower or a fireplace, he's generating these flames in a similar vein to how a DF user would- but in a more "natural" way. It would be useless if he uses lower end attacks at heat levels they can handle. But as Akainu showed, if you go hotter, then that's fair game.


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 23, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> King can make his flames hotter than Ace could canonically do, which would provide him with a huge advantage. We have no reason to believe Sabo could make the flames hotter than Ace, so that gives the King an advantage there.


Sabo ate the flame fruit he cannot be hurt by flame attacks, if it has flames its not going to work.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Also, these aren't normal flames where King is using a flamethrower or a fireplace, he's generating these flames in a similar vein to how a DF user would- but in a more "natural" way. It would be useless if he uses lower end attacks at heat levels they can handle. But as Akainu showed, if you go hotter, then that's fair game.


King is not sakazuki. One has the magu magu no mi. He also said because he *is magma* not *like magma *he can outclass the mera.


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 23, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Yes but oda and king named their attacks with the words fire/flames nothing to do with magma.



I see, however luffys gears and punching attacks are named after fire arms, the names don't make it 100 percent so tho. With many more examples Especially when kings flames are dense and as hot as magma in action.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 24, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Sabo ate the flame fruit he cannot be hurt by flame attacks, if it has flames its not going to work.
> 
> King is not sakazuki. One has the magu magu no mi. He also said because he *is magma* not *like magma *he can outclass the mera.



If you read the chapter Sakazuki said it was because magma was *hotter *than fire. King can make his flames hotter than standard fire. If King sticks to "standard fire" temps, then won't get hurt. If he goes higher, like magma then Sabo's screwed. We're not even talking Haku application here.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Fire basically cannot hurt King, there is a chance that King can even manipulate Sabo's mera abilities. They hold a similiar position in their crews/organisation and featswise King is just better. Going with King high diff here.





VileNotice said:


> Sabo is stronger but idk what mera is supposed to do to King. At the same time it could serve as a good defense from King’s fire. I’ll give it to Sabo extreme


Not sure if the mera is all that relevant to Sabo's win or demise here, considering that even before getting the mera, he could have easily been as strong if not stronger than King already.

Also, logically, going by his admiral clash in DR and in Levely, as well as him having been shown to have similar potential as Ace when they were kids, who 2 years ago was at minimum YC3, AND with his younger brother now facing off against a yonko, who is still far from being his last opponent, there is 0% chance that Sabo isn't massively stronger than King right now.


----------



## Beast (Jan 24, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Yes it does it’s headcanon and does matter. Once we can establish that zoro can win pretty handily it shows how ridiculous it is to argue king wins this.


Loool king already lost in the manga, who’s arguing anything about him winning?
Zoro just got his power up and pulled what one move with it that completely took King out, I’m not about using Headcanon to figure out how much better Zoro could do complete once he woke up, does he need another arc to master the control of the CoC? Is he going to wear out the same? 
there’s too many possibilities and we won’t know till We see Zoro at least back on his feat at least by portrayal even if he is injured.


----------



## Kagutsutchi (Jan 24, 2022)

King with a *Flame* attack can burn Sabo the *Flame* Logia all because Zoro said King's strongest *Flame* attack is like magma.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 24, 2022)

Vivo Diez said:


> Not sure if the mera is all that relevant to Sabo's win or demise here, considering that even before getting the mera, he could have easily been as strong if not stronger than King already.
> 
> Also, logically, going by his admiral clash in DR and in Levely, as well as him having been shown to have similar potential as Ace when they were kids, who 2 years ago was at minimum YC3, AND with his younger brother now facing off against a yonko, who is still far from being his last opponent, there is 0% chance that Sabo isn't massively stronger than King right now.



Hope hope oh how we hope. 


Kagutsutchi said:


> King with a *Flame* attack can burn Sabo the *Flame* Logia all because Zoro said King's strongest *Flame* attack is like magma.



Not just that Sabo doesn't have the ap to hurt King either.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 24, 2022)

All the Sabo arguments seem to be "just 'cause it's Sabo" and some fixed tier systems they made up in their heads. That doesn't seem all too convincing. At the very least something more concrete, like we know as the Revolutionaries second in command it is plausible he might have Fishmen Karate or that Dragon Claw could be part of a wider Haki fighting style akin to Rokushiki. 

But it seems the Sabo camp are more interested in arguments you could also apply to Ace, but don't want to say they are using arguments you could apply to Ace. 

I mean if they're willing to disregard the Lunarian hype and Zoro's comments about King's flames and abilities just for the sake of "but its Sabo" and random comments like "YC1, therefore, xyz, but equal to YC2 therefore but Yonku cap and he this to YC1 therefore" while trying to gloss over the idiosyncrasies of each character... then I'm sure you can roll with that. 

But, at least admit you're willing to disregard a lot just to say Sabo wins in a way that Ace could potentially win.

Reactions: Winner 5


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 24, 2022)

Beast said:


> Loool king already lost in the manga, who’s arguing anything about him winning?
> Zoro just got his power up and pulled what one move with it that completely took King out, I’m not about using Headcanon to figure out how much better Zoro could do complete once he woke up, does he need another arc to master the control of the CoC? Is he going to wear out the same?
> there’s too many possibilities and we won’t know till We see Zoro at least back on his feat at least by portrayal even if he is injured.


Meant to say sabo will win not zoro


----------



## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> All the Sabo arguments seem to be "just 'cause it's Sabo" and some fixed tier systems they made up in their heads. That doesn't seem all too convincing. At the very least something more concrete, like we know as the Revolutionaries second in command it is plausible he might have Fishmen Karate or that Dragon Claw could be part of a wider Haki fighting style akin to Rokushiki.
> 
> But it seems the Sabo camp are more interested in arguments you could also apply to Ace, but don't want to say they are using arguments you could apply to Ace.
> 
> ...


Eh, King has a lot more concrete feats, against opponents as strong or stronger than him. It's completely fair game to go off narrative implications of how strong Sabo should be relative to Ace and Luffy, if not, might as well close the whole thread since there's nothing to discuss then, Sabo doesn't have enough feats.

Also, no idea why you think it being plausible that Sabo knows fishman karate is all that relevant here...


----------



## Captain Quincy (Jan 24, 2022)

Sabo's narrative of being relative to Ace puts him at Yamato level at best. He's been surpassed by Luffy already as far as we know and King should logically be stronger than that level too.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Sabo's portrayal of being relative to Ace puts him at Yamato level at best. He's been surpassed by Luffy already as far as we know and King should logically be stronger than that level too.


Why 'at best'? I would put Sabo above Yamato.


----------



## Captain Quincy (Jan 24, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Why 'at best'? I would put Sabo above Yamato.


Cuz Ace's best showing is being seemingly even with Yamato

And people here are using the logic Sabo is supposed to be relative to Ace based off portrayal. Which is fair but doesn't put him above King.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Sabo's narrative of being relative to Ace puts him at Yamato level at best. He's been surpassed by Luffy already as far as we know and King should logically be stronger than that level too.


King got ran through as soon as zoro whipped out acoc. Yamato is doing the same.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Cuz Ace's best showing is being seemingly even with Yamato
> 
> And people here are using the logic Sabo is supposed to be relative to Ace based off portrayal


We didn't see much of that fight but I get your point, I think they're close.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Captain Quincy (Jan 24, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> King got ran through as soon as zoro whipped out acoc. Yamato is doing the same.


Zoro pulled it out the end of Ch 1033, we saw them fight for two more chapters and King took multiple AdvCoC attacks. He was only put down after Jigoku Dragon.

If you want to claim Yamato (and by extension Ace & Sabo) is comparable to Zoro in AdvCoC, then you'd need to prove Yamato can do something on the level of Jigoku Dragon. None exists as far as I know.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Oda Report (Jan 24, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> King got ran through as soon as zoro whipped out acoc. Yamato is doing the same.



Nah she not strong enough, Yamato ap not powerful enough and her haki is pitiful compared to Zoros.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Zoro pulled it out the end of Ch 1033, we saw them fight for two more chapters and King took multiple AdvCoC attacks. He was only put down after Jigoku Dragon.
> 
> If you want to claim Yamato (and by extension Ace & Sabo) is comparable to Zoro in AdvCoC, then you'd need to prove Yamato can do something on the level of Jigoku Dragon. None exists as far as I know.


Zoro murked a non adcoc user and Yamato clashed with kaido. And ofc they’re comparable to zoro. They’re all in this gen’s silver medalist tier.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Zoro pulled it out the end of Ch 1033, we saw them fight for two more chapters and King took multiple AdvCoC attacks. He was only put down after Jigoku Dragon.
> 
> If you want to claim Yamato (and by extension Ace & Sabo) is comparable to Zoro in AdvCoC, then you'd need to prove Yamato can do something on the level of Jigoku Dragon. None exists as far as I know.



Yamato was capable of drawing 2 drops of blood from Kaido's forehead. I honestly believe Franky could do more considering how Big Mom grabbed a meat shield in shock to defend from radical beam.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Captain Quincy (Jan 24, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Zoro murked a non adcoc user and Yamato clashed with kaido. And ofc they’re comparable to zoro. They’re all in this gen’s silver medalist tier.


So you have proof Yamato can put out something comparable to Jigoku Dragon?




truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> They’re all in this gen’s silver medalist tier.


If Yamato joins SH she won't even be bronze

M3 dynamic is unbreakable


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> So you have proof Yamato can put out something comparable to Jigoku Dragon?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Idt she has the same damage output as zoro… if she joins it’ll be odenesque so she’ll be comparable to zoro but I’d give him the nod


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 25, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you read the chapter Sakazuki said it was because magma was *hotter *than fire. King can make his flames hotter than standard fire. If King sticks to "standard fire" temps, then won't get hurt. If he goes higher, like magma then Sabo's screwed. We're not even talking Haku application here.


Sakazuki never said it was hotter.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 25, 2022)

Vivo Diez said:


> Eh, King has a lot more concrete feats, against opponents as strong or stronger than him. It's completely fair game to go off narrative implications of how strong Sabo should be relative to Ace and Luffy, if not, might as well close the whole thread since there's nothing to discuss then, Sabo doesn't have enough feats.
> 
> Also, no idea why you think it being plausible that Sabo knows fishman karate is all that relevant here...



Except the Sabo camp is taking way too many liberties with "narrative implications" while overlooking actual narrative implications. Luffy right now, based on what we should know could very well be stronger than Sabo, he's shown at AdvCoA almost on par with Sabo. Going by what we know of Rokushiki, we can surmise Dragon Claw is an application of Haki, notably AdvCoA, which Luffy's been using well. He's also got AdvCoO which is above what Ace and Sabo have ever shown, and on top of that AdvCoC which is above anything Ace and Sabo have ever shown in any of their battles. 

It isn't a stretch to assert that Luffy right now could be *stronger *than Ace was, and Sabo is right now. We don't need to weaken him (and Zoro), just so some Sabo bros can say Sabo can take King. 

As for the relevance of Sabo having a Haki fighting style, and potentially fishermen karate, it could add a dimension to the battle to potentially hurt this tough DF user he's up against which I suspect some are ignoring because you can't apply it to Ace.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 25, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Sakazuki never said it was hotter.


 Check again.


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 25, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Check again.


Check cnet and other reliable translation all says the same thing. Sakazuki is magma itself


----------



## Dunno (Jan 25, 2022)

I'm going with the guy who mid diffed Marco, low diffed Sanji and no diffed Big Mom.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 25, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Check cnet and other reliable translation all says the same thing. Sakazuki is magma itself


That's the nature of Logia fruits. However, as for why Ace couldn't overcome Akainu, magma's hotter than fire. King can make his flames as hot as magma. Unless we find out Sabo went beyond Ace and could make his flames as hot or hotter than King's, then using Ace tactics, Sabo's going to lose. 

In other words, these pseudo-Ace vs King arguments result in Ace's Sabo's loss. If we actually ditch the "using Sabo's name but I'm really arguing for Ace" and actually try to argue for Sabo, then we might have something.


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 25, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's the nature of Logia fruits. However, as for why Ace couldn't overcome Akainu, magma's hotter than fire. King can make his flames as hot as magma. Unless we find out Sabo went beyond Ace and could make his flames as hot or hotter than King's, then using Ace tactics, Sabo's going to lose.


DId Akainu say he burns hotter? or did he say he say he is magma. I thinks he said is because his is magma. KIng flames attack cannot do nothing to a flame user. It's a bad matchup.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 25, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> DId Akainu say he burns hotter? or did he say he say he is magma. I thinks he said is because his is magma. KIng flames attack cannot do nothing to a flame user. It's a bad matchup.





He is magma. Magma burns fire in this world. If it makes contact with you it bursts into flames that burn you, which is what happened to Ace.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 25, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> DId Akainu say he burns hotter? or did he say he say he is magma. I thinks he said is because his is magma. KIng flames attack cannot do nothing to a flame user. It's a bad matchup.





TheWiggian said:


> He is magma. Magma burns fire in this world. If it makes contact with you it bursts into flames that burn you, which is what happened to Ace.



Exactly. It is like the Sace guys will purposely overlook things for Sabo's Logia powers to win (read: saying Ace will win without saying Ace).

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> He is magma. Magma burns fire in this world. If it makes contact with you it bursts into flames that burn you, which is what happened to Ace.


This is what I was saying. Akainu is magma not like magma. King attacks have the word flame in them, On his back is a literal flame.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> This is what I was saying. Akainu is magma not like magma. King attacks have the word flame in them, On his back is a literal flame.



Yet his attack been described to be like magma. Akainu nowhere said that only "his" magma can burn fire, just that he is magma and magma burns fire in that world. Why would it be stated to be like magma if it's just regular fire? Pretty clear that Oda wanted to show that it is hotter than your regular flame. 

Same effect/art when  just .

Same design and art of element based attacks.  and .

Wow look there are flames on Akainu's magma, i wonder if that's truly pure magma, maybe it's just like magma only but still a mere flame.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Yet his attack been described to be like magma. Akainu nowhere said that only "his" magma can burn fire, just that he is magma and magma burns fire in that world. Why would it be stated to be like magma if it's just regular fire? Pretty clear that Oda wanted to show that it is hotter than your regular flame.
> 
> Same effect/art when  just .


why.  not magma based on the name of the attack and king. Both made contact but king doesnt have  the "fss" effect like sakazuki had.attacks

Akainu magma is magma, king flames are like magma but still flames at the end of the day.


TheWiggian said:


> Wow look there are flames on Akainu's magma, i wonder if that's truly pure magma, maybe it's just like magma only but still a mere flame.


Pure magma, not walamart version flame magma.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Yet his attack been described to be like magma. Akainu nowhere said that only "his" magma can burn fire, just that he is magma and magma burns fire in that world. Why would it be stated to be like magma if it's just regular fire? Pretty clear that Oda wanted to show that it is hotter than your regular flame.
> 
> Same effect/art when  just .
> 
> ...


He said magma burns flames not that magma is hotter right?


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> He said magma burns flames not that magma is hotter right?



If it burns fire it is hotter. Also just a few fists from Ryusei Kazan boiled the whole water in the MF bay within seconds.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> If it burns fire it is hotter. Also just a few fists from Ryusei Kazan boiled the whole water in the MF bay within seconds.


But akainu never said it burned fire because it was hotter


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> But akainu never said it burned fire because it was hotter



The mera user got burned by it. The only logical conclusion is that it's hotter and it fits with Sakazuki's feats that his lethality is exceptional and tears off limbs and scars people left and right.


----------



## ikku123 (Jan 26, 2022)

we haven't seen any attack from sabo that can take out king and king has fire resistance  and kings fire is as hot as magma so king mid diffs till sabo gets more feats

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> The mera user got burned by it. The only logical conclusion is that it's hotter and it fits with Sakazuki's feats that his lethality is exceptional and tears off limbs and scars people left and right.


Yes but we believe things if a character states it but akainu never said why he could burn fire so not sure what to think


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Yes but we believe things if a character states it but akainu never said why he could burn fire so not sure what to think



Okay you seem to be slow regarding that. It's ok you'll get there one day.


----------



## Germa 66 (Jan 26, 2022)

Sabo lower end of high diff


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Okay you seem to be slow regarding that. It's ok you'll get there one day.


I figured I’d get in on the fun of making ridiculous leaps in logic


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> I figured I’d get in on the fun of making ridiculous leaps in logic



Getting burned by extreme heat is totally a ridiculous leap in logic


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Getting burned by heat is totally a ridiculous leap in logic


No saying we need it stated is ridiculous just not that much more than give this to king based on zoro’s comment to then go a step further and give that to king.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> No saying we need it stated is ridiculous just not that much more than give this to king based on zoro’s comment to then go a step further and give that to king.



So what's the statement for? Why couldn't Oda stfu and go with normal fire instead?


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> So what's the statement for? Why couldn't Oda stfu and go with normal fire instead?


To hype zoro’s opponent obviously?? Lol


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> To hype zoro’s opponent obviously?? Lol



Hype what exactly?


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Hype what exactly?


So the teens reading would go wow so epic it’s like magma


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> So the teens reading would go wow so epic it’s like magma


And what exactly is hype about it?


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> And what exactly is hype about it?


Oh my god bro I get what you think you’re doing that he’s trying to say it’s hotter than magma so we can tier specialist king>sabo but you’re on crack if you think luffy’s brother is losing to the subordinate of some loser. Oda is making reference to akainu’s magma but purely as hype in this moment which is the last king will be relevant. Don’t beg the question just say it,


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Oh my god bro I get what you think you’re doing that he’s trying to say it’s hotter than magma so we can tier specialist king>sabo but you’re on crack if you think luffy’s brother is losing to the subordinate of some loser. Oda is making reference to akainu’s magma but purely as hype in this moment which is the last king will be relevant. Don’t beg the question just say it,



Why should Luffy's brother be better than a subordinate of a loser if he sits in the same boat as that subordinate?

You gotta do better than that. Your explanation is horse shite bro.


----------



## Empathy (Jan 26, 2022)

King’s magma trump card should give him a slight advantage. Sabo’s feats and hype can really only be gauged as regular YC1-level at this point, so the same level as King. I’d say King edges it with extreme difficulty.


----------

