# BSM Narudo Vs SM Hashirama



## Trojan (Dec 14, 2015)

Location: Narudo & Sasuke Vs Asspulldara
Knowledge: Manga 
Distance: 7.5 m
restrictions: None. 

Ok, It's canon that Narudo is superior, but how much of a fight can Hashirama put? 


And Hashirama couldn't achieve this


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## Ersa (Dec 14, 2015)

Hashirama just edges out BSM Naruto.

Base Jesusruto stomps though.


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## Trojan (Dec 14, 2015)

What about Kaguya's Son, the knower of all, black Zetsu's canon statement tho?


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## Kyu (Dec 14, 2015)

100%(post war) BSM > SM Hashi > 50%(pre-extraction) BSM

/thread


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## Ersa (Dec 14, 2015)

Naruto's "power" may be greater but Hashirama is very suited to handling Bijuu seeing as he toppled 100% Kurama with EMS Madara.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 14, 2015)

I don't get those scans, OP.

How do they prove Naruto > Hashirama?


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## Trojan (Dec 14, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't get those scans, OP.
> 
> How do they prove Naruto > Hashirama?



Simply put. Meeting Hago is based on the incarnation's power as Zetsu said.

Narudo's power was great enough to meet him, Hashirama's was not.

Therefore, Narudo's power > Hashirama's.


The second pic is for Hashirama/Asspulldara's fanboys who keep putting pitiful excuses

"Well, Kaguya/Juubi were not around so there is no need for him to appear to Hashirama/Asspuldara blah blah blah" However, Hago stated that he did meet other reincarnations even tho Kaguya/Juubi were not around as well.


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## Alex Payne (Dec 14, 2015)

_Madara _didn't meet Hagoromo. One who achieved his powers. That statement doesn't prove much.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 14, 2015)

Oh, shit.

Didn't think about it that way, to be honest, I just skimmed over those panels when reading the chapters, lol.

Yeah, if that's the case, then it's pretty much manga canon that Bijū Sage Naruto > Sage Hashirama, then.

I don't know about Sasuke, though. Still seems a little odd to call him superior to Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Madara, given how little we saw of the former's Perfect Susanō.



Alex Payne said:


> _Madara _didn't meet Hagoromo. One who achieved his powers. That statement doesn't prove much.



I don't think that's what Hussain meant. With his quotes, I think the implied meaning was that:

Hagoromo met a lot of transmigrants over the centuries. Difference was, he only met them to see if the transmigrants' power was enough to transfer over his own in order to seal Kaguya, and well... Hashirama/Madara never met Hagoromo, which must have meant they simply weren't powerful enough to warrant it.


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## Mercurial (Dec 14, 2015)

Well, judging from the statement (which is Viz) it actually seems that Hussain is right here. I have doubts about BSM Naruto > Hashirama and especially about EMS Sasuke > Madara, but...


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## Alex Payne (Dec 14, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't think that's what Hussain meant. With his quotes, I think the implied meaning was that:
> 
> Hagoromo met a lot of transmigrants over the centuries. Difference was, he only met them to see if the transmigrants' power was enough to transfer over his own in order to seal Kaguya, and well... Hashirama/Madara never met Hagoromo, which must have meant they simply weren't powerful enough to warrant it.


Hagoromo gave NaruSasu powers to seal Madara with Kaguya's powers. What was the point of giving previous transmigrants his powers if there was no Jubi-Jin/Kaguya around to deal with? Why give that power to people that only fight each other?


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 14, 2015)

Considering you are too inept to understand the statement, I'll just go ahead and say that Hashirama still flattens him with SS. Keep up the wank though. Portrayal and feats will always put any version of Naruto that isn't post Rikudo's buff below Hashirama and the same goes for Madara. Sasuke was stated to be inferior to Madara anyway, whether it be DB or Orochimaru stating that he will EVENTUALLY (hint hint: it hasn't come yet) surpass Madara.

-Statement proves that they are strong enough to meet Hagoromo. When you can actually show that he meets with every transmigrant who is strong enough then you will make sense. Others are irrelevant when you don't know:

-Why he meet with them.
-How many he met with.


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## Amol (Dec 14, 2015)

Naruto wins with High diff.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 14, 2015)

Nah, it was preconceived that Naruto would meet Hagoromo. Hagoromo literally predicted this himself, decades before Naruto's birth and shortly before his death. 

It was destined to happen, BSM Naruto was not stronger than Prime Hashirama, Madara's surge in power pitted the planet and Hagoromo's culture to a breaking-point climax where he would have to intervene and empower the living transmigrants to save the world (from doom) and culture (wasn't sure which one to give more power to this time around, how it would affect his culture, decided to split it equally [Naruto/Sasuke] and see how it played out, fortunately it worked for him this time).

Naruto happened to be that living transmigrant at the time.

If Hashirama were to be the transmigrant during the life phase of this global conflict, he would have been the one empowered.

It doesn't matter if the transmigrant was Konohamaru-level at the time, Hagoromo would've shown up and empowered him because that's the living spirit of his powerful son, who will one day be capable of reshaping the world.


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## LightningForce (Dec 14, 2015)

Hussain trying to take the meaning of Black Zetsu's words out of context, and trying to lay down his erroneous interpretation as canon. I guess next thing you know, Itachi is also invincible.  

SM Hashirama beats BSM Naruto adeptly. Mokujin/Gates to restrain the avatar, block any incoming TBB, and Wooden Dragon to suck up the avatar's chakra. Hashirama can play all day long even without the need for Buddha.


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## Ghoztly (Dec 14, 2015)

I don't think it's wrong to say they are in the same tier of strength.

However because Naruto's power relies on a bijuu, Hashirama would defeat him handily.


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## Itachi san88 (Dec 14, 2015)

> It's canon that Narudo is superior,


Not really.

And please, Madara EMS>>Sasuke EMS ._.



> I guess next thing you know, Itachi is also invincible.


Is true. Thank you Zetsu


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## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

I thought Hagoromo said the reason he was able to manifest was because madara was able to gain both Indra and Ashura chakra


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## ARGUS (Dec 14, 2015)

What KeyofMiracles and DaVizWiz said 

Hagoromo meeting Naruto and sasuke only meant that they were powerful enough to meet him *the transmigrants can meet him given the situation they were in* 
This does not prove that they surpassed Hashirama and Madara or any previous transmigrants when we don't know if he met them or what criteria is required to meet him 

*hagoromo had no reason to meet Hashirama and madara* him not meeting them has 0 relevance with their strength 

Hashirama and Madaras feats and portrayal show that they are on another level to these scrubs, especially sasuke 

Hashirama > Madara >> BSM Naruto >>> EMS Sasuke 

As for this match up:
SS pounds Naruto to oblivion, his offense is bitch slapped back at his face and he has absolutely no way of even scratching it. Nor can he tank its blows 

Honestly, myojinmon plus chojo kobetsu one shots Naruto here


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2015)

Naruto blitzes and one-shots Hashirama with Rasenshuriken or mini-Tailed Beast Ball. Hashirama has about a 0% chance of responding to Naruto's top speed from this distance.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Naruto blitzes and one-shots Hashirama with Rasenshuriken or mini-Tailed Beast Ball. Hashirama has about a 0% chance of responding to Naruto's top speed from this distance.



Hashirama can no longer regenerate?


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2015)

Considering Rasenshuriken turns off his chakra, no. Senjutsu Mini-TBB would turn him into chunks of meat looking at what a Senjutsu Rasengan did to Jesusbito.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Considering Rasenshuriken turns off his chakra, no. Senjutsu Mini-TBB would turn him into chunks of meat looking at what a Senjutsu Rasengan did to Jesusbito.



Rasenshuriken turns off chakra? What are you talking about? I admit I don't even remember half the stuff that happened in that manga but this sounds like something you are pulling out of your nether region


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## Bonly (Dec 14, 2015)

Naruto still has a time limit in so all Hashi has to do is wait out the time limit then overwhelm Naruto and finish him off and with Hashi's skillset he should be able to do it so I'd give him the edge more times then not 



Senjuclan said:


> Rasenshuriken turns off chakra? What are you talking about? I admit I don't even remember half the stuff that happened in that manga but this sounds like something you are pulling out of your nether region



Naruto's FRS destroys a persons chakra tubes so that person wouldn't be able to use chakra anymore


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Rasenshuriken turns off chakra? What are you talking about? I admit I don't even remember half the stuff that happened in that manga but this sounds like something you are pulling out of your nether region



[1][2]

*Edit*: Bonly in ninja king.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> 100%(post war) BSM > SM Hashi > 50%(pre-extraction) BSM
> 
> /thread



That is the absolute truth.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Location: Narudo & Sasuke Vs Asspulldara
> Knowledge: Manga
> Distance: 7.5 m
> restrictions: None.
> ...


hashirama low diff 

reading comprehension isnt your strong point, so allow me to give you some aid. 

_"I knew it was *possible*, depending on the reincarnate's power."_

do you see the bolded word?

this is its definition:
_Possible_-_"*able to happen although not certain to*; denoting a fact, event, or situation that *may or may not occur or be so.*"_

the sentence is saying that if a reincarnate is strong enough, then it is *possible* for them to meet hagoromo. it doesnt say that they will meet hagoromo without a doubt.

of course, this is all discounting the fact that the raws say nothing about power, but competence. 


> And Hashirama couldn't achieve this




*Spoiler*: __


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## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> [1][2]
> 
> *Edit*: Bonly in ninja king.



OK here is the problem with your reading of those scans ... 

1. Hashirama's healing, much like Tsunade's sozo saisei, is a cellular level regeneration. If Hashirama is creating new cells to regenerate, the effects of FRS are rendered moot. We know that Hashirama's cells have the power to produce other cells without using chakra (don't ask me how that is what Kishi said in DB3 about the difference between moku bunshin and kage bunshin). 

2. The scans don't really support your assertion either. Naruto suffers the same effects as the victim, albeit at a lower level, and yet to this day Naruto's hands are still usable to mold chakra after he has used this jutsu repeatedly ... I call BS. It does not sound like a get hit with FRS once and you no longer can use chakra type of affair


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2015)

I mean, though I disagree with you, it isn't as if Hashirama can tank those attacks either. Mini-TBB turns him into a puddle. He doesn't have the durability to survive a direct hit with a Senjutsu nuke.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I mean, though I disagree with you, it isn't as if Hashirama can tank those attacks either. Mini-TBB turns him into a puddle. He doesn't have the durability to survive a direct hit with a Senjutsu nuke.





Madara survived multiple attacks from bijuu and credited Hashirama's power. Me things he will be just fine


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 14, 2015)

Lel people actually think Naruto has the capability to blitz Hashirama with no reaction huh?

1. Sasuke who is inferior to Madara can track Obito.
2. Hashirama matches that same Madara in Base, let alone Sage Mode.
3. Sasuke and KCM Naruto are shown matching each other in physical movement speed outside Shunshin and reaction speed. Thus Madara and Hashirama surpass them in that since Madara>Sasuke and Hashirama=Madara (> in sage mode)

So to everyone who is unable to follow along, KCM Naruto can't blitz anyone who is just as reflexive and fast as him (outside super shunshin) thus he can't blitz Sasuke, or the faster Madara or the faster SM Hashirama nor is there evidence the SM speed boost pushes KCM Naruto's level of speed to a plane where Hashirama gets killed with no reaction. Even if someone wanted to try and claim something as baseless as that, if Base Hashirama=Madara>Sasuke=KCM Naruto, add SM to both sides and they cancel out. Thus the result is the same. SM Hashirama easily reacts to Naruto.


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2015)

Nothing puts Hashirama's visual perception above or on par with EMS Sasuke or Madara. No evidence that Sasuke can respond to Obito's top speed without Susanoo (Hashirama doesn't have that) from 7.5m anyway.


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## ARGUS (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Naruto blitzes and one-shots Hashirama with Rasenshuriken or mini-Tailed Beast Ball. Hashirama has about a 0% chance of responding to Naruto's top speed from this distance.



Uhhh No he doesn't 
The burden of proof is on you to explain how he has 0% chance in responding. Especially when you're asserting something with no real evidence 

Madara blocked BM narutos blitz with his gunbai rather easily. 
Base hashiramas reactions = EMS Madaras 
Now give Naruto the SM annd give Hashirama SM then nothing changes 

Then there's the fact that Sasuke who is inferior to said Madara tracked juubito who moves much much faster than BSM Naruto 
Base Hashirama is on par with EMS Madara and SM Hashirama is even faster. 
SM Hashirama >> Base Hashirama = EMS Madara > EMS Sasuke in reactions 
BSM Naruto does absolutely jack shit

All Hashirama needs is one clap and an entire mokuton forest is created which lets him gain distance and then paste him

Edit: whoops, seems like KeyofMiracles beat me to it. As he has pretty much said what I wanted to


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## ARGUS (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nothing puts Hashirama's visual perception above or on par with EMS Sasuke or Madara.


The fact that base Hashirama and Edo Madara were fighting on par with each other in CQC 
And the fact that they have fought on a stalemate multiple times in CQC. Says otherwise 

If there really was any difference in their reactions then Madara would have clobbered him in CQC but that never happened 



> No evidence that Sasuke can respond to Obito's top speed without Susanoo (Hashirama doesn't have that) from 7.5m anyway.



mentally tracking is much easier than physically doing it 
Then there's the fact that Juubito >> BSM Naruto. 
You're asserting that someone who is more reflexive will get blitzed with 0 reaction by someone who moves much slower than people that the same inferior people have shown to track


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## Raiken (Dec 14, 2015)

17 y/o 100% BSM Naruto >> SM Hashirama => 50% BM+SM Naruto => 50% BM Naruto = Base Hashirama


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nothing puts Hashirama's visual perception above or on par with EMS Sasuke or Madara. No evidence that Sasuke can respond to Obito's top speed without Susanoo (Hashirama doesn't have that) from 7.5m anyway.



 Being physically faster than EMS Madara (to negate his EMS + Choku Tomoe Precognitive advantage) does as EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto both tracked Juubito and EMS Madara is by far more reflexive than both of them.


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> The fact that base Hashirama and Edo Madara were fighting on par with each other in CQC. And the fact that they have fought on a stalemate multiple times in CQC. Says otherwise.



Bullshit. Not only have Madara & Hashirama never actually fought an all out, close quarters battle (to our knowledge), but there are other factors than reflexes in close combat. Stamina, strength, taijutsu, etc. 



ARGUS said:


> If there really was any difference in their reactions then Madara would have clobbered him in CQC but that never happened



No, he wouldn't have. Sharingan Sasuke got his shit pushed in by base B. Sasuke could react to and evade v1 B, so we know there's more to close combat than reflexes...



ARGUS said:


> You're asserting that someone who is more reflexive will get blitzed with 0 reaction by someone who moves much slower than people that the same inferior people have shown to track



Minato, the fastest Hokage, nearly lost his head against Raikage's top speed. BSM Naruto's top speed obliterates Hashirama effortlessly. Even if he could react, he doesn't have an instant jutsu like Hiraishin, so he gets nuked anyway.



NarutoX28 said:


> Being physically faster than EMS Madara (to negate his EMS + Choku Tomoe Precognitive advantage) does as EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto both tracked Juubito and EMS Madara is by far more reflexive than both of them.



Please. _Base_ Naruto fought on par with Rinnegan Sasuke for much of the VotE. So what, Super Sage Mode Naruto blitzes Sasuke dead? 

EMS Madara isn't "by far" more reflexive than Naruto or Sasuke either.


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## Ersa (Dec 14, 2015)

Sasuke blitzed Super Sage Naruto with Ameno actually.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 14, 2015)

No he didn't.

 Rinnegan Sasuke was constantly urging Naruto to use his full power. Him blitzing Base Naruto from the start wouldn't make sense. He was holding back and slowly forcing Naruto to go all out as well. 

 Actually, Rinnegan Sasuke moved far faster than Base Naruto did in that scenario. Base Naruto barely moved a couple of meters whereas Rinnegan Sasuke blitzed on top of Hashirama's Statue within the same time interval.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 14, 2015)

Hashirama was reacting to 100% PS Claded Kurama armed with double blades chasing him over a range of mountains, and he came out alive.

I'd still peg BSM Naruto as faster than that version of Kurama, and with 7.5m, I'll have to roll with Naruto here as he can literally extend his avatar arm and grab Hashirama from this distance, not that I think he would, I do however think that Hashirama will be run down and killed prior to mounting any adequate defense or offense. 

This is a major disadvantage for Hashirama, starting in base from 7.5m, and Naruto already in BSM. Not really sure why OP did this.. all it proves is BSM Naruto is faster and too powerful for *Base* Hashirama to deal with in CQC. Hashirama himself isn't a speed monster or CQC powerhouse, so this entire simulation is pointless in determining anything related to power levels between them. A clearly bias scenario.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nothing puts Hashirama's visual perception above or on par with EMS Sasuke or Madara.



Irrelevant. His reaction speed canonically matches Madara's in Base as per their multiple CQC fights. KCM Naruto can't blitz Sasuke who is shown to react just as fast as him before being able to track Obito thus he's not going to blitz two people above Sasuke in that regard. Simple as that. 



> Bullshit. Not only have Madara & Hashirama never actually fought an all out, close quarters battle (to our knowledge), but there are other factors than reflexes in close combat. Stamina, strength, taijutsu, etc.



Like this.  If two people are evenly matched in CQC or Taijutsu then their physical parameters are dead equal. If Madara surpassed Hashirama in any of the things you listed above then he would've won. It's really that simple of a concept to grasp.

And wrong. They were in CQC at the beginning of their fight and the end of their fight.




> No evidence that Sasuke can respond to Obito's top speed without Susanoo (Hashirama doesn't have that) from 7.5m anyway.



Irrelevant. Doesn't need to respond to Obito's top speed for someone faster than him to respond to BSM Naruto's top speed.



> Please. Base Naruto fought on par with Rinnegan Sasuke for much of the VotE. So what, Super Sage Mode Naruto blitzes Sasuke dead?



Seriously Rocky? We are going to straight up lie about the Manga's events to fit in line with our desperate arguments? Base Naruto not once and never will fight on par with Rinnegan Sasuke in CQC. Sasuke couldn't maintain his Rinnegan and had his eye CLOSED during the CQC battle, so seeing you claim that Rinnegan had anything to do with that fight is honestly hilarious.

Sasuke was only using 3-Tomoe, and was competing with Naruto despite the latter using clones.  Then Sasuke ran out of chakra to use his 3-Tomoe and him and Base Naruto brawled for hours. So:

Rinnegan Sasuke>>3-Tomoe Sasuke>Base Sasuke w/ no Dojutsu=Base Naruto w/o Ninjutsu in close combat.



> Minato, the fastest Hokage, nearly lost his head against Raikage's top speed. BSM Naruto's top speed obliterates Hashirama effortlessly. Even if he could react, he doesn't have an instant jutsu like Hiraishin, so he gets nuked anyway.



Hmm, let's see. Minato was called the fastest due to Hiraishin. Not just his reflexes. If you want to claim "Minato fastest Hokage when it comes to reaction speed" then you better do what you are supposed to do and actually prove it because the following have feats surpassing him:

-Tobirama (Reacting to Obito while Minato almost lost his head against Ay)
-EMS Sasuke (tracking Obito while Minato was blitzed with no reaction)
-BSM Naruto (tracking Obito, was already comparable in KCM)
-Anyone who matches Sasuke or surpasses him. Hashirama and Madara fall into this category.

He doesn't need an instant jutsu like Hiraishin to block Naruto's attack when he can physically react to Naruto's speed. A simple clap of the hands and Naruto gets repelled by wood or his attack bounces off Hobi.

And we have Edo Madara blocking top speed Ay w/ a diversion from Mei thrown into the mix. So yeah, without Hiraishin Minato is nowhere near being the fastest shinobi alive, and even with it he's not the fastest Hokage. That'd be the guy who beats him in every area of speed bar Shunshin (Tobirama)



> No, he wouldn't have. Sharingan Sasuke got his shit pushed in by base B. Sasuke could react to and evade v1 B, so we know there's more to close combat than reflexes...



How many disingenuous comparisons will you make? Sharingan Sasuke got wrecked by B because of B's unorthodox style, and was able to dodge V1 because of his linear style. Style has nothing to do with anything here because only B has that unorthodox style. 

Madara and Hashirama matching in CQC means that they are equals in every area that has to do with the field.


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> His reaction speed canonically matches Madara's in Base as per their multiple CQC fights.



No. 

If Madara has better speed & reflexes and Hashirama has better strength & durability (or regen), it can still be close. Hashirama never matched Madara over the course on an entire fight anyway. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> KCM Naruto can't blitz Sasuke who is shown to react just as fast as him



Ready to get mindfucked? If KCM Naruto is faster than Raikage, and Raikage was an inch from KCM Naruto's nose, that means that KCM Naruto can blitz himself...which means he can blitz Sasuke. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> If two people are evenly matched in CQC or Taijutsu then their physical parameters are dead equal.



 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Then Sasuke ran out of chakra to use his 3-Tomoe and him and Base Naruto brawled for hours.



Funny how Sasuke had enough chakra to use the Rinnegan to steal Naruto's chakra after that day-long brawl. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Hmm, let's see. Minato was called the fastest due to Hiraishin. Not just his reflexes.



Due to both. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Tobirama (Reacting to Obito while Minato almost lost his head against Ay)



Tobirama got cut in half.



KeyofMiracles said:


> That'd be the guy who beats him in every area of speed bar Shunshin (Tobirama)



Tobirama beats Minato in no areas of speed. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> And we have Edo Madara blocking top speed Ay w/ a diversion from Mei thrown into the mix.



No evidence that it was A's top speed. Hair is even down right after the punch.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> If Madara has better speed & reflexes and Hashirama has better strength & durability (or regen), it can still be close. Hashirama never matched Madara over the course on an entire fight anyway.



If Hashirama had superior strength then he'd overpower Madara in Taiijutsu. If Madara had better speed or reflexes he'd hit Hashirama before Hashirama could hit him. What does durability or regen have to do with them being able to match each other blow for blow with neither being pushed back? Nothing, because those things only come into play when someone has been hit.

Entire fight? Not relevant. 




> Ready to get mindfucked? If KCM Naruto is faster than Raikage, and Raikage was an inch from KCM Naruto's nose, that means that KCM Naruto can blitz himself...which means he can blitz Sasuke.



Hmm, would make sense:

If Naruto hadn't reacted and then run around him and ended up around 1-5m away from him. So no, KCM Naruto can't blitz himself. If Naruto was able to outspeed Ay like he did, then Naruto can easily block Ay's punch. Only reason why he shouldn't is because he'd die. Probably. Who knows? Not the point anyway.







> Funny how Sasuke had enough chakra to use the Rinnegan to steal Naruto's chakra after that day-long brawl.



Funny how precognition only works if your eye is actually open. And that's the only way Rinnegan helps Sasuke in a close combat brawl.



> Due to both.



Based on what again?



> Tobirama got cut in half.



After he reacted and tagged Obito. Minato barely reacted to Ay. If he was in Tobirama's position he'd be ripped in half with no reaction.



> Tobirama beats Minato in no areas of speed.



-Reactions.
-Striking.

Yeah. 




> No evidence that it was A's top speed. Hair is even down right after the punch.



Ay being worried that Madara can guard against his speed wouldn't make sense if he didn't block Ay's top speed.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 14, 2015)

It isn't so much that Ay was worried about Madara blocking; it's the fact that he felt it necessary to point out, when he never did so against Naruto, Sasuke, or even fucking Jūgo. Ay couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone being able to block his regular-speed; many people have done it before.

But the fact that he actually did so against Madara, someone with *much more* hype than Kyūbi Chakra Mode Naruto, Sasuke, or fucking Jūgo, means his regular Shunshin wasn't being used. It was his full speed.


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> If Hashirama had superior strength then he'd overpower Madara in Taiijutsu. If Madara had better speed or reflexes he'd hit Hashirama before Hashirama could hit him.



Over time, yes. You may not see those results in like two panels of fighting. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> If Naruto was able to outspeed Ay like he did, then Naruto can easily block Ay's punch.



Naruto did the same thing as Minato: React with no-seal ninjutsu. Minato used Hiraishin & Naruto used Shunshin.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Based on what again?



C using Minato's _reflexes_ as a means to hype up Raikage. He was clearly renowened for both. It's probably all over the Databook too, but I don't have a copy of that.



KeyofMiracles said:


> After he reacted and tagged Obito.



We don't even know how those bombs got onto Obito. Here's some food for though: Tobirama has shown that he has explosive notes inside of his Edo body. Considering that Tobirama had no tags in his hand, and Obito was covered in them after cutting Tobirama in half...hopefully you can see where I'm going. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Striking.



Based on?



KeyofMiracles said:


> Ay being worried that Madara can guard against his speed wouldn't make sense if he didn't block Ay's top speed.



It's implied that the "guard" A was talking about was Susanoo. "I need to up the speed to crush the guard." Madara was in Susanoo at the time. Hell, considering A even said that he needed to up the speed in the first place, that suggests that he had another level of speed to actually up to...


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 14, 2015)

Ay said, "he can guard against even my *speed*."

Not power. Which would, yes, then be relevant towards Susanō. It makes much more sense interpreted with Madara's reaction feat because he literally did it a inch from his face. Why would Ay be impressed with Madara blocking with Susanō when Madara did it in reaction to *Mei*'s attack, not Ay's?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 14, 2015)

He stated that the could guard * even * against * my * speed.

 If he had a higher level of speed to access, then Madara didn't guard against his speed. It wouldn't make sense for that not to be case as MS Sasuke could guard against V1 Raikage's attacks.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Dec 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Over time, yes. You may not see those results in like two panels of fighting.



They had a drawn out battle at the end of their fight. What we see=/=Entirety of what happened.





> Naruto did the same thing as Minato: React with no-seal ninjutsu. Minato used Hiraishin & Naruto used Shunshin.



Yet Naruto is physically moving and Minato isn't. 




> C using Minato's _reflexes_ as a means to hype up Raikage. He was clearly renowened for both. It's probably all over the Databook too, but I don't have a copy of that.



Minato's reflexes being hyped=/=Minato's reflexes being hyped to be the best.
Minato's reflexes *in conjunction* with Hirasihin making him the fastest shinobi=/=Minato's reflexes being the fastest,





> We don't even know how those bombs got onto Obito. Here's some food for though: Tobirama has shown that he has explosive notes inside of his Edo body. Considering that Tobirama had no tags in his hand, and Obito was covered in them after cutting Tobirama in half...hopefully you can see where I'm going.



Not relevant as I was talking about the Hiraishin marking he left on Obito's side, and Tobirama had to have physically touched Obito with his hand to lay that marking there.



> Based on?



Being able to tag Obito.



> [It's implied that the "guard" A was talking about was Susanoo. "I need to up the speed to crush the guard." Madara was in Susanoo at the time. Hell, considering A even said that he needed to up the speed in the first place, that suggests that he had another level of speed to actually up to...



The statement he makes right before saying that he needs to get his speed up to smash Madara's guard is: "You are able to guard yourself against even my speed". So no, he wasn't just talking about Susanoo.

And no, it means that he needs a way to up his speed. No reason for him to say that instead of just doing it. No reason for him to be surprised that Madara can guard against his speed when he didn't say anything about Jugo blocking his speed like ATastyMuffin has already stated.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Ay said, "he can guard against even my *speed*."



_"You're able to block me, even with my speed. So I need to up my speed, and thus the power to destroy your guard...!"_

Since Madara blocked A's chop with Susanoo, and was in Susanoo at the time of that statement...yeah, see what I mean? More speed does technically lead to more power. 

Even if he was talking about Madara blocking the punch, A is implying that he has another level of speed to go to with the "I need to up my speed" part. 



NarutoX28 said:


> If he had a higher level of speed to access, then Madara didn't guard against his speed. It wouldn't make sense for that not to be case as MS Sasuke could guard against V1 Raikage's attacks.



A never used Shunshin against Sasuke until Amaterasu, which he powered up for. What's your point anyway?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A never used Shunshin against Sasuke until Amaterasu, which he powered up for. What's your point anyway?



 He did. Remember when he ducked under his elbow?


----------



## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Remember when he ducked under his elbow?



Erubō ≠ Shunshin.

I don't understand why everybody thinks that ducking one strike means you can do the same with a Shunshin blitz. For example, when Obito & Kakashi evade each other, they aren't evading Shunshin:


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Bullshit. *Not only have Madara & Hashirama never actually fought an all out, close quarters battle (to our knowledge), *but there are other factors than reflexes in close combat. Stamina, strength, taijutsu, etc.



Uhh VOTE?, the battle before the senju/Uchiha alliance? 
Edo base Hashirama vs Edo Madara? After they were turned to dust by juubidama? 

All of these battles involved a long exchange of CQC. Each of these were done once their constructs were out of picture 
Yet they were mostly equal. If strength, speed, skill or reactions were different between the 2 then they are not equal. It's that simple 
The only bullshit part is what you're saying here 




> No, he wouldn't have. Sharingan Sasuke got his shit pushed in by base B. Sasuke could react to and evade v1 B, so we know there's more to close combat than reflexes...


Evading 1 linear blow of V1 bee doesn't mean that he would fare any better against him then how he did against base bee 
Then there's the fact that he only got shit stomped bcz of his non linear style and could only evade V1 because he moved in a linear fashion 

Completely irrelevant argument here because this doesn't concern Madara or Hashirama 




> Minato, the fastest Hokage, nearly lost his head against Raikage's top speed. BSM Naruto's top speed obliterates Hashirama effortlessly. Even if he could react, he doesn't have an instant jutsu like Hiraishin, so he gets nuked anyway.


Minato was revered as the fastest only because of his instant FTG 
Reactions =/= how fast one moves 

And like Keyofmracles said, Tobiramas reactions and striking speed were better than even KCM minato let alone base minato. He shits on him in that department

EMS Madara is more reflexive than sasuke Who is on par with Naruto. Both of whom reacted and tagged fucking juubito 
Base Hashirama is on par with ems Madara. And SM Hashirama is even faster. 

If juubitos speed was tracked by much slower people than fucking BSM narutos speed is jack shit to someone who more reflexive than Naruto himself 

One clap of hand and narutos strike is either blocked or he gets attacked 

And I have noticed that you have deliberately ignored the previous argument which proves why Hashirama reacts with ease 

So I assume that you have conceded on that 
Bcz An ignored argument is a conceded argument 




> Please. _Base_ Naruto fought on par with Rinnegan Sasuke for much of the VotE. So what, Super Sage Mode Naruto blitzes Sasuke dead?


Makes 0 sense since RSM Naruto was more or less equal to rinnegan sasuke 
And sasuke couldn't even maintain his dojutsu against base Rikudo Naruto 

So really it was base Naruto vs base sasuke


----------



## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Uhh VOTE?, the battle before the senju/Uchiha alliance?



How about this: Show me scans of Hashirama matching EMS Madara blow for blow over an extended period of time.  



ARGUS said:


> Completely irrelevant argument here because this doesn't concern Madara or Hashirama



It's not irrelevant as it proves that there's more to close combat than just reflexes. 



ARGUS said:


> Minato was revered as the fastest only because of his instant FTG



FTG combined with his reflexes. He was clearly portrayed as the fastest when everybody complimented his speed when they all got to the battlefield. 



ARGUS said:


> Tobiramas reactions and striking speed were better than even KCM minato let alone base minato.



Lol no. That is ridiculously unsupported. 



ARGUS said:


> EMS Madara is more reflexive than sasuke



Based on?



ARGUS said:


> One clap of hand and narutos strike is either blocked or he gets attacked



Hashirama won't even be able to move before Naruto's killed him. 



ARGUS said:


> And sasuke couldn't even maintain his dojutsu against base Rikudo Naruto



We know he used it to absorb Naruto's chakra _after_ fighting _all day_, so...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Erubō ≠ Shunshin.
> 
> I don't understand why everybody thinks that ducking one strike means you can do the same with a Shunshin blitz. For example, when Obito & Kakashi evade each other, they aren't evading Shunshin



 Except Raikage's main attack method are through his usage of Shunshin to amplify his attacks. Obito relies more on his Kamui usage and Kakashi especially relies on versatility and tactics to exploit his enemy's abilities. They have completely different fighting styles.

 And I'm assuming this isn't Shunshin?

surprise attack


----------



## Kai (Dec 15, 2015)

Hashirama decisively wins this.

A) Orochimaru stated towards the end of the Obito fight that (EMS) Sasuke will one day surpass Madara.
B) It was worth stating, following Naruto achieving Six Paths Sage Mode, that Naruto had surpassed the Hokage.
C) BM Naruto was struggling against Mokuton Ryu.

SM Hashirama > BSM Naruto.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Except Raikage's main attack method are through his usage of Shunshin to amplify his attacks.



The Raikage's "main attack method" is using nintaijutsu in general. Shunshin is not applied in all of those nintaijutsu, the most obvious examples being Guillotine Drop & Liger Bomb. If you see a named technique, that's almost a guarantee that it isn't Shunshin. A doesn't exactly need it with natural speed so high... 



NarutoX28 said:


> Obito relies more on his Kamui usage and Kakashi especially relies on versatility and tactics to exploit his enemy's abilities. They have completely different fighting styles.



That's irrelevant. I'm merely providing an example of how not every attack is a full-speed blitz. That applies to _every_ character, no matter their fighting style.



NarutoX28 said:


> And I'm assuming this isn't Shunshin?



Looks like Erubō to me. He used Shunshin to get out of the way of the Chakra Cannon prior to that, though.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

Comparing retard-form Obito's speed to fully control Obito's speed is as retarded as
comparing KCM Naruto (before he even control his power like against Kisame) to BM Naruto's speed. 

The lack of reading comprehension/common sense is amazing.

the guy went from having 2 Gedu-Damas
 BM Naruto's speed

to 10
Link removed
The one Minato faced is like 5 times superior to the one Tobirama faced.
and yet such idiotic comparison exist. That's without even taking in consideration the different type of jutsu

I guess Toneri (with the bugs in his body) and Konan (with the explosion in her wings) are faster and has better reaction that A who
couldn't hit Obito because he has no explosion tags or bugs. 


I guess when Onoki & A attacked Edo Madara from behind his Susanoo, that means they can do the
same to JJ Madara. 



Kai said:


> Hashirama decisively wins this.
> 
> A) Orochimaru stated towards the end of the Obito fight that (EMS) Sasuke will one day surpass Madara.
> B) It was worth stating, following Naruto achieving Six Paths Sage Mode, that Naruto had surpassed the Hokage.
> ...




Yeah, Sasuke who was jealous of Narudo being ahead of him?  

Funny tho that you resulted to Sasuke's inferiority without consider that Tobirama never said that Naruto "one day will surpass Hashirama" 

The reaching is real. 

Here is the page


Please note; this is *NARUTO* NOT Sasuke

Now, make us all a favourite and show us where Tobirama said that Naruto will "one day" surpass him?  



> C) BM Naruto was struggling against Mokuton Ryu.



Kai, Please. 

1- BSM Naruto > BM Naruto
2- no one said Naruto will fodderstomps him.

I guess Lee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hashirama

Because Hashirama was struggling with Madara when Lee fodderstomps him with 1-kick. 

Or Base Minato is >>>> BM Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Gai because they were struggling with Obito. 


oh, and Gai is also inferior fighter because he was struggling with Edo Madara? Who would have known that edo madara is stronger than JJ SM Madara. 



> SM Hashirama > BSM Naruto.


Zetsu begs to differ.


----------



## Kai (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yeah, Sasuke who was jealous of Narudo being ahead of him?
> 
> Funny tho that you resulted to Sasuke's inferiority without consider that Tobirama never said that Naruto "one day will surpass Hashirama"
> 
> The reaching is real.


We don't need any validation of the sort from Tobirama. We know Naruto strives to surpass the Hokage since the first chapter. Kishi bothered to have it stated after Naruto was blessed with Rikudo's power.

On the other hand, if Naruto had surpassed Hashirama before meeting Hagoromo, I'm sure you would be expecting Tobirama to have said "you surpass my brother" wouldn't you 




			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> Kai, Please.
> 
> 1- BSM Naruto > BM Naruto
> 2- no one said Naruto will fodderstomps him.
> ...


Madara wasn't even using senjutsu when he forced Naruto to struggle against Mokuton Ryu. Think about that for a moment.

SM Hashirama > BSM Naruto.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

> =Kai;54888154]We don't need any validation of the sort from Tobirama. We know Naruto strives to surpass the Hokage since the first chapter. Kishi bothered to have it stated after Naruto was blessed with Rikudo's power.


Yes you do need that because you used Oro's irrelevant statement about Sasuke and applying that to Narudo who has nothing to do with it even tho there is a statement in the exact same page about Naruto (which is the relevant one) and yet you completely ignored it.  



> Kishi bothered to have it stated after Naruto was blessed with Rikudo's power.


Do you mean the exact same amount of bother he had to have Zetsu stating that, but you ignore it? 
Sure. 



> On the other hand, if Naruto had surpassed Hashirama before meeting Hagoromo, I'm sure you would be expecting Tobirama to have said "you surpass my brother" wouldn't you


He does not need to state the obvious. But anyway, Zetsu did it instead of him.  



> Madara wasn't even using senjutsu when he forced Naruto to struggle against Mokuton Ryu. Think about that for a moment.


> implying Naruto used his SM. lol

and way, Narudo destroyed that with his speed. And then SM Naruto destroyed it with his FRS
thing of that for a second. 



> SM Hashirama > BSM Naruto.



 is there for you. 

Here is the canon tho.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

oh, and btw: let's play around with your logic a bit, shall we? 

Kishi never had anyone claiming that BSM Naruto surpassed Tsunade, old Hiruzen, Tobirama, Minato..etc etc

Do you also think that he will lose to them because no such a claim existed? 

(of course it does exist that he is stronger than Hashirama, which you ignore, but what about the rest?)


----------



## Kai (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yes you do need that because you used Oro's irrelevant statement about Sasuke and applying that to Narudo who has nothing to do with it even tho there is a statement in the exact same page about Naruto (which is the relevant one) and yet you completely ignored it.


*All* of Naruto and Sasuke's power progressions are relevant to each other. All of them. That should be obvious now that the manga is over.

Main character and rival. Brothers by bond, not blood. Two sons of fate. Yin and Yang.

Unless Naruto was stronger than Hashirama while Sasuke remained weaker than Madara.





			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> Do you mean the exact same amount of bother he had to have Zetsu stating that, but you ignore it?
> Sure.


Always up for offering official sources and translations, but always misinterpreting them.
Love and hate you Hussain 




			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> > implying Naruto used his SM. lol
> 
> and way, Narudo destroyed that with his speed. And then SM Naruto destroyed it with his FRS
> thing of that for a second.


>Naruto never destroyed it with his speed.
>Naruto destroyed it when they were on the same side, immobilizing Madara 





			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> is there for you.
> 
> Here is the canon tho.


My god, not this again. Of course you only have Naruto in mind when you take statements out of context in his favor. Sasuke in the waiting room for the "one day" he surpasses Madara yet meets Hagoromo for free 

Zetsu says meeting Hagoromo is possible, depending on the reincarnate's power. Possible, not a guarantee. Naruto and Sasuke met that possibility under the perfect conditions. They awakened Hagoromo's chakra within themselves while on the brink of death.


----------



## Kyu (Dec 15, 2015)

Pre-six paths BSM had nothing on SS, Hussain. An _absurd_ starting distance is essential to annihilate the colossal statue without fear of being pummeled to death. 

Nothing short of heavily shifting relatively standard battle conditions will grant fifty percent BSM a feasible shot at defeating Shodaime.

He needed the other half of Kurama or Rikudō Chakra to trounce Sage Hashirama.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

> [=Kai;54888271]*All* of Naruto and Sasuke's power progressions are relevant to each other. All of them. That should be obvious now that the manga is over.


And that's your opinion? Because Sasuke disagree. 




> Main character and rival. Brothers by bond, not blood. Two sons of fate. Yin and Yang.


Sure. 



I am pretty sure that's why we saw equal performance against Kaguya, and why Sasuke TOTALLY did not need all the 9 Bijuu, oh wait.... I must have mixed that with fanfiction, my bad.  



> Unless Naruto was stronger than Hashirama while Sasuke remained weaker than Madara.


Indeed. Unless you also believe that Madara remained weaker than Hashirama until the end of the manga!  

Please, do tell me that you believe that 3 Rinnegan, SM, Juubi madara is also still Hashirama's equal.
Do you need me to open a thread for you to convince us how they are equal? 



> Always up for offering official sources and translations, but always misinterpreting them.
> Love and hate you Hussain



I am flattered. But wouldn't it be awesome if you do give us the correct interpretation instead?  


> >Naruto never destroyed it with his speed.
> >Naruto destroyed it when they were on the same side, immobilizing Madara


Is that so? 
Please do tell what happened to the Dragon's lovely face in the last panel. 
Link removed



> My god, not this again. Of course you only have Naruto in mind when you take statements out of context in his favor. Sasuke in the waiting room for the "one day" he surpasses Madara yet meets Hagoromo for free


> implying Madara and Hashirama remain the same 



> Zetsu says meeting Hagoromo is possible, depending on the reincarnate's power. Possible, not a guarantee. Naruto and Sasuke met that possibility under the perfect conditions. They awakened Hagoromo's chakra within themselves while on the brink of death.



And Hashi did not. 


> while on the brink of death


and it so happened that Hashirama got his ass kicked in a war, coincidence?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

> [=Kyu;54888329]Pre-six paths BSM had nothing on SS, Hussain. An _absurd_ starting distance is essential to annihilate the colossal statue without fear of being pummeled to death.


No one said he has to fight the same as Madara and stay there like an idiot. 

If you want to go all technical and overthinking stuff, then you MIGHT be correct, but sometimes
the simplest solutions are the best ones. 

Did Onoki's son has any firepower compare to the Juubi? I think NOT.
did that stop him from flipping the Juubi and redirect his TBB? Nope.

Does that Hachibi has the same power as the Juubi? No he does not.
Did that stop him from GREATLY damaging the Juubi by using his own TBB against him? Nope. 



> An absurd starting distance


Are you implying that the avrage distance is more of a chance for Hashirama (who God knows how) be so extremely fast to bring the SS and attack
Naruto, rather than Naruto (whom God knows how) be so extremely slow that he can't cut Hashirama's head off right off the bat?  




> Nothing short of heavily shifting relatively standard battle conditions will grant fifty percent BSM a feasible shot at defeating Shodaime.


Must be why they lost against someone whom Hashirama got blown up from the crossfire when they battled him.  



> He needed the other half of Kurama or Rikudō Chakra to trounce Sage Hashirama



We will agree to disagree.


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And that's your opinion? Because Sasuke disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.



Though if that was the case would that mean that Sasuke never reached Itachi's level much less surpassed him?

And why Naruto felt he needed to catch up after seeing Sasuke for the first time in part 2 if he was always ahead of him in the first place?

Or why Naruto disagreed with Sasuke when he said that he lost?

All rivalries IMO in this manga were never so straightforward with one guy being always inferior to his rival. Even Madara surpassed Hashi by FAR with Rinnegan and Juubi even if he was somewhat weaker before. Arguably Danzou was the only one to always be behind Hiruzen...though with Koto and Hiruzen's performance in this war all bets are off. Similar with Oro and Jiraiya too as Oro never truly mastered SM like his rival by lacking the proper body(with Itachi seeing Jiraiya as more threatening) but could edge him by preparing some powerful edo zombies.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

- Sasuke said "once did" which means in the past, which is true. So, that does not mean itachi "is" still superior.
- Well, for every rule there is an expectation I guess.  Sasuke was only superior to Narudo at the start of part 2. 
- Just like he disagreed with Ino's father and said winning/losing against pain does not matter. It does not change
the fact that he won.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Pre-six paths BSM had nothing on SS, Hussain. An _absurd_ starting distance is essential to annihilate the colossal statue without fear of being pummeled to death.
> 
> Nothing short of heavily shifting relatively standard battle conditions will grant fifty percent BSM a feasible shot at defeating Shodaime.
> 
> He needed the other half of Kurama or Rikudō Chakra to trounce Sage Hashirama.



And nothing on Wood Dragon, amped by Sage Mode. And nothing on Myojinmon. Sage Mode Hashirama doesnt need Shinsuusenju to beat pre-amp BSM Naruto.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)




----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2015)

Do you have anything to say on topic? Can you refute what i've written? No, you cant. 

BM Naruto couldnt deal with Edo Madara's weaker Wood Dragon. Yes, he got out of it, but after some time. He couldnt do that at the beginning. SM Hashirama can catch BSM Naruto in Wood Dragon, a lot stronger than that of Edo Madara (due to senjutsu amp) and immediately use Myojinmon on him. And that's it. BSM Naruto gets butchered.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

I already posted a canon statement, what do you have *other than* your nonsense?


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - Sasuke said "once did" which means in the past, which is true. So, that does not mean itachi "is" still superior.
> - Well, for every rule there is an expectation I guess.  Sasuke was only superior to Narudo at the start of part 2.
> - Just like he disagreed with Ino's father and said winning/losing against pain does not matter. It does not change
> the fact that he won.



-Wouldn't it be more of Itachi is dead now so the "once did" part referring to him as when he was still alive? It would be hard to say that he still follows behind Itachi's back when Itachi is no longer around. Sasuke also called Itachi "perfect" despite having a superior dojutsu at that time. Also Sasuke's thoughts by the end when he believed to have always followed behind Naruto were mirror-like to Naruto's own during VoTE 1 and during their clash in the bridge where Danzou died.

-Yeah, though Sasuke also beat him when they fought as kids supervised by Iruka and also during the end of part 1. Granted Bunta might have changed the outcome in the latter though I recall Kakashi saying that he has no doubt that Naruto gave it all he had to stop Sasuke.

- I agree that Sasuke failed to accomplish his goal(LOLrevolution) while Naruto got what he wanted but if we were to define Naruto's victory in terms of battle prowess in VoTE then what jutsu/trick/ability Naruto used to beat Sasuke? We know he beat Neji with an uppercut, Pain with rasengan or Kakuzu with FRS but how classify his victory against Sasuke in similar terms?For example had Sasuke been knocked out with the uppercut that Naruto smacked him with then there would be no arguments on the side of Sasuke fans.


----------



## Indra (Dec 15, 2015)

Naruto loses to Hashirama unless this is post-Rikudou Naruto. The Last Naruto BSM would top Hashirama, anything lower than post-Rikudou Naruto loses.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

> [=Arles Celes;54890029]-Wouldn't it be more of Itachi is dead now so the "once did" part referring to him as when he was still alive? It would be hard to say that he still follows behind Itachi's back when Itachi is no longer around. Sasuke also called Itachi "perfect" despite having a superior dojutsu at that time. Also Sasuke's thoughts by the end when he believed to have always followed behind Naruto were mirror-like to Naruto's own during VoTE 1 and during their clash in the bridge where Danzou died.



Will, when itachi was alive he was superior to Sasuke obviously. Perfection has nothing to do with his power (even tho he is the furtherst character from that.)


> -Yeah, though Sasuke also beat him when they fought as kids supervised by Iruka and also during the end of part 1. Granted Bunta might have changed the outcome in the latter though I recall Kakashi saying that he has no doubt that Naruto gave it all he had to stop Sasuke.



Academy shit. Just like when Narudo tied him up. 
Part 1 Narudo was not only holding back Bunta, but he faced all 5 sounds and took hits from them
when Sasuke was staying in a trash can.  


> - I agree that Sasuke failed to accomplish his goal(LOLrevolution) while Naruto got what he wanted but if we were to define Naruto's victory in terms of battle prowess in VoTE then what jutsu/trick/ability Naruto used to beat Sasuke? We know he beat Neji with an uppercut, Pain with rasengan or Kakuzu with FRS but how classify his victory against Sasuke in similar terms?For example had Sasuke been knocked out with the uppercut that Naruto smacked him with then there would be no arguments on the side of Sasuke fans.


Sasuke was knocked out at the end. Hence Naruto's statement that he finally woke up. 





lndra said:


> Naruto loses to Hashirama unless this is post-Rikudou Naruto. The Last Naruto BSM would top Hashirama, anything lower than post-Rikudou Naruto loses.



Read the manga bro.


----------



## LightningForce (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I already posted a canon statement, what do you have *other than* your nonsense?



No one in this thread takes that canon statement as indicating pre-6 Paths Naruto > Hashirama except you.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I already posted a canon statement, what do you have *other than* your nonsense?



I dont see any statement about BSM Naruto being superior to Hashirama before Rikudou gave him his chakra.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

-snip-

Or you can go to the first page. BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama is canon



LightningForce said:


> No one in this thread takes that canon statement as indicating pre-6 Paths Naruto > Hashirama except you.



Not sure what does any of their opinions worth compared to what Zetsu stated. I.E manga canon 

They were also saying the same thing about the 8th Gates before Kishi showed its power.
They said the same thing about Shukaku's story
and they said the same thing about the Byakugan/Sharingan origian 

and so on and so forth, and guess what? They have been wrong every single time. 

Edit:

InB4 , Kushina san's Wank with no arguments.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Then you need to visit a doctor because you might have issues with your eyes.
> Or you can go to the first page. BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama is canon
> 
> 
> ...



You want to prove anything to me? Show me a canon statement that pre-Rikudou BSM Naruto was superior to Hashirama. Then i'll concede.

The scan you've provided proves nothing. Kai countered you on that one. That is why i'm asking you to provide a proof.


----------



## Kushina san (Dec 15, 2015)

"Canon" 

Hashirama obviously wins...mid-diff at most. Just as obviously vote Madara (no kyuubi) stomps EMS Sasuke.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Dec 15, 2015)

Naruto supporters about to take this L, again.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Raikage's "main attack method" is using nintaijutsu in general. Shunshin is not applied in all of those nintaijutsu, the most obvious examples being Guillotine Drop & Liger Bomb. If you see a named technique, that's almost a guarantee that it isn't Shunshin. A doesn't exactly need it with natural speed so high...



 I never stated it was, but it seems you're making the assumption that Ei can't amplify his Taijutsu with Shunshin even though his techniques are simply Taijutsu amplified by his Raiton Cloak.

 But no, Ei's main fighting style is Shunshin. If it weren't, he wouldn't have used it against KCM Naruto, Madara, Minato, and Obito.

 Actually, Minato stated:

 Kakashi's raikiri

 Raikage was known for his speed, not his NinTaijutsu which is why Minato referred to his speed rather than his fighting techniques.



> That's irrelevant. I'm merely providing an example of how not every attack is a full-speed blitz. That applies to _every_ character, no matter their fighting style.



 And Kakashi and Obito don't utilize Shunshin in their combat style which is why we have no reason to believe their hits to be Shunshin whereas Raikage heavily relies on lunging at his opponent at high speeds. 

 Raikage's movements are linear and in order for them to be more effective, he'd want to be using Shunshin. 



> Looks like Erubō to me. He used Shunshin to get out of the way of the Chakra Cannon prior to that, though.



 And he can't jab his opponent with his elbows while using Shunshin because ....?


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> But no, Ei's main fighting style is Shunshin.



Define "fighting style" then.



NarutoX28 said:


> Raikage was known for his speed



Yeah, his speed. That encompasses more the just the body flicker. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Raikage's movements are linear and in order for them to be more effective, he'd want to be using Shunshin.



If you want to assume that every single attack a uses involves Shunshin (even though I'd disagree with that), that's whatever. Since Shunshin varies in speed too, it doesn't mean much in the end. If A was surprised that Madara blocked him, but wasn't surprised that Sasuke ducked him, that could simply mean that he wasn't using his best (v1) Shunshin when he attacked Sasuke. 



NarutoX28 said:


> And he can't jab his opponent with his elbows while using Shunshin because ....?



He can, if he wanted to. There isn't any evidence that he did, though.


----------



## LightningForce (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> -snip-
> 
> Or you can go to the first page. BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama is canon
> 
> ...



I am not arguing about the canonicity of the Zetsu statement. I am arguing about the interpretation. Where did Zetsu outright state that Naruto is more powerful than Hashirama? You argue 'well, because Zetsu said it's possible depending on the reincarnate's power. Naruto was able to meet him and Hashirama wasn't, ergo he's more powerful.' This is one of the most vague statements ever made, and you twist it to fit your own little Naruto-serving agenda. Did you ever stop to think about the fact that Naruto is the child of prophecy? That he has a special gift to bring people together? That he is the absolute first aside from the holy man himself to befriend the tailed beasts himself? Oh I don't know, perhaps this is the power that Zetsu was talking about? In fact, *Hagoromo's own words have more meaning than Black Zetsu's conjecture*.



I wasn't around when these events in the manga just recently occurred, nor are they relevant. I assume you were talking about others predicting what would occur, which has jack to do with the point.

SM Hashirama trashes BSM Naruto, end of it.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 16, 2015)

*It is possible*, depending on the reincarnate's power. *It is possible*.


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## LightningForce (Dec 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> *It is possible*, depending on the reincarnate's power. *It is possible*.



That too. But overall, Hagoromo appearing was quite necessary for the story due to the crisis in which the shinobi were in. The world was about to come to an end. Literally a deus ex machina for both Naruto, Sasuke, and even how he appeared in front of the Hokage.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 17, 2015)

Hashirama technically met Hagoromo.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hashirama technically met Hagoromo.



It doesnt matter if he met him or not. The line "it is possible" negates everything Hussain brought out so far. 

Hashirama is still the strongest shinobi in the manga, except those with Rikudou's/Juubi's chakra. That's for sure.


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

Naruto beat Toneri and Tenseigan Toneri is equal to Rinnegan Madara (Kishi's own words)
Rinnegan Madara > Hashirama (all forms)
Therefore Naruto > Hashirama
Hashirama's Bijuu handling capabilites are useless in front of sheer power, the same way he couldn't do shit to the ten tails jinchūriki.


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## Itachi san88 (Dec 17, 2015)

Leaving aside for a moment Naruto and Hashirama, the problem is that no one knows how Sasuke EMS should beat not War Madara, but Madara valley of the end (without kyuubi of course), because yeah, he can't.

Yes, because _ canon_ (completely misinterpreted by some Naruto fanboy) is valid only for Naruto.  



> Naruto beat Toneri and Tenseigan Toneri is equal to Rinnegan Madara (Kishi's own words)
> Rinnegan Madara > Hashirama (all forms)
> Therefore Naruto > Hashirama
> Hashirama's Bijuu handling capabilites are useless in front of sheer power, the same way he couldn't do shit to the ten tails jinchūriki.


That is Naruto with chakra Rikudou.


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

Itachi san88 said:


> That is Naruto with chakra Rikudou.



I thought Rikudou took away his chakra, hence why he can't use his healing.

Edit
Never mind I just checked, Naruto didn't use SPSM throughout the whole movie, my point still stands.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 17, 2015)

UnjustNation said:


> I thought Rikudou took away his chakra, hence why he can't use his healing.
> 
> Edit
> Never mind I just checked, Naruto didn't use SPSM throughout the whole movie, my point still stands.



Lol no. Rikudo took the seals, not the chakra. Not using RSM is irrelevant when the chakra still makes his other modes stronger than before. Even if he did, it'd mean that Toneri is weak as hell since he was beaten by a regular BSM Naruto w/o Naruto even using his Avatar. That'd mean that any top tier with a Kurama level Avatar or above would wipe Toneri off the face of the planet.

And by the way, Kishi never said Rinnegan Madara=Toneri. The whole Rinnegan=Tenseigan business is false information. If you disagree kindly present the source.


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## Itachi san88 (Dec 17, 2015)

UnjustNation said:


> I thought Rikudou took away his chakra, hence why he can't use his healing.
> 
> Edit
> Never mind I just checked, Naruto didn't use SPSM throughout the whole movie, my point still stands.


Naruto and Sasuke they lost only the Yin and Yang seals, not the Rikudou chakra....


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol no. Rikudo took the seals, not the chakra. Not using RSM is irrelevant when the chakra still makes his other modes stronger than before. Even if he did, it'd mean that Toneri is weak as hell since he was beaten by a regular BSM Naruto w/o Naruto even using his Avatar. That'd mean that any top tier with a Kurama level Avatar or above would wipe Toneri off the face of the planet.
> 
> And by the way, Kishi never said Rinnegan Madara=Toneri. The whole Rinnegan=Tenseigan business is false information. If you disagree kindly present the source.



You'd think that with two movies in, Naruto would have used his Six Paths chakra mode at least once but I guess he just forgot .  

Hagoromo is equal to his brother Hamura, therefore Rinnegan=Tenseigan. So far from what we've seen from the Tenseigan, Kishi obviously wants to portray them as equal. To think something that is capable of slicing the moon in half (the greatest form of sealing) and bringing mankind to extinction is in anyway weaker than the Rinnegan is absurd, if anything it's even stronger.

There is a reason we differentiate BSM Naruto with SO6P Naruto, because their power difference is vast. It's foolish to assume that just because Naruto has Six Paths chakra in him his BSM is anyone near powerful as his Six Paths chakra mode. 

You highly underestimat Naruto, The Last BSM Naruto > Pre Upgrade BSM Naruto and that's a fact. You're also forgetting that Naruto has the chakra of other 8 tailed beasts inside him along with Hashiramas cells.


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

Itachi san88 said:


> Naruto and Sasuke they lost only the Yin and Yang seals, not the Rikudou chakra....



He didn't use Six Paths chakra mode, so what's the point?


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 17, 2015)

UnjustNation said:


> You'd think that with two movies in, Naruto would have used his Six Paths chakra mode at least once but I guess he just forgot .
> 
> Hagoromo is equal to his brother Hamura, therefore Rinnegan=Tenseigan. So far from what we've seen from the Tenseigan, Kishi obviously wants to portray them as equal. To think something that is capable of slicing the moon in half (the greatest form of sealing) and bringing mankind to extinction is in anyway weaker than the Rinnegan is absurd, if anything it's even stronger.
> 
> ...



He did in Boruto, not in The Last. I have no idea why though.

No, Hagoromo=Hamura means Hagoromo=Hamura. Tenseigan=Rinnegan is baseless. Kaguya>JJ Hagoromo. Guess Byakugan>Rinnegan now. It offering more destructive capabilities than the Rinnegan doesn't mean that the eye itself is equal, and that doesn't mean that the user of the eye is equal to the user of a Rinnegan. 

Oh look. A strawman.  I never said The Last BSM Naruto is close to his RSM self. I said that The Last BSM Naruto is far stronger than his regular BSM self because he has Hagoromo's power. The rest is irrelevant because Naruto being stronger isn't evidence that he's so much stronger after only 2 years that he's stronger than people like Madara and Hashirama w/o the use of his Avatar. If we are being 100% unbiased here then you'll realize that nothing Naruto did in The Last DC wise is out of Madara or Hashirama's league. 

-Hashirama's cells are irrelevant as all they do is grant more vitality.
-The other Bijuu are irrelevant unless Naruto actually uses their power.


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## Kai (Dec 17, 2015)

Hagoromo and Hamura were equal when they faced their mother. Hagoromo became the strongest individual in the world once he became the first jinchuuriki.

Tenseigan = Rinnegan is speculation, but Hamura (and Toneri) possess nothing that match the fused power of the nine Tailed Beasts.



			
				UnjustNation said:
			
		

> Naruto beat Toneri and Tenseigan Toneri is equal to Rinnegan Madara (Kishi's own words)


Page please 

There's just simply no way a man Naruto defeated without Sasuke's assistance is equal to a man who demanded cooperation between Naruto and Sasuke's Six Path powers as the sole possible way to win.


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> He did in Boruto, not in The Last. I have no idea why though.


Yeah my bad, you're right. I just checked and he did, he doesn't have the pigmentation. Though I still don't understand why his skin was glowing... it seems more akin to his BSM than SO6P mode.



KeyofMiracles said:


> No, Hagoromo=Hamura means Hagoromo=Hamura. Tenseigan=Rinnegan is baseless. Kaguya>JJ Hagoromo. Guess Byakugan>Rinnegan now. It offering more destructive capabilities than the Rinnegan doesn't mean that the eye itself is equal, and that doesn't mean that the user of the eye is equal to the user of a Rinnegan.


 Tenseigan=Rinnegan is baseless? How come? Toneri was said to be as strong as Madara in the movie and feat wise, Toneri is stronger. Madara can't dislodge the moon or cut it in half based off what he has shown. 
Toneri and Madara have equal hype, while Toneri has better DC and Madara has better haxx thanks to rinnegan. Madara hasn't shown he can tank moonbusting attacks, that's why Toneri wins. Madara got owned pretty bad by Black Zetsu, Toneri losing to Naruto is a better showing than losing to BZ.

I mean if the wiki is true, according to the film Tenseigan Toneri = 3 eyed Juudara. That means Toneri is even stronger than Rinnegan Madara apparently.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 17, 2015)

UnjustNation said:


> Yeah my bad, you're right. I just checked and he did, he doesn't have the pigmentation. Though I still don't understand why his skin was glowing... it seems more akin to his BSM than SO6P mode.
> 
> 
> Tenseigan=Rinnegan is baseless? How come? Toneri was said to be as strong as Madara in the movie and feat wise, Toneri is stronger. Madara can't dislodge the moon or cut it in half based off what he has shown.
> Toneri and Madara have equal hype, while Toneri has better DC and Madara has better haxx thanks to rinnegan. Madara hasn't shown he can tank moonbusting attacks, that's why Toneri wins. Madara got owned pretty bad by Black Zetsu, Toneri losing to Naruto is a better showing than losing to BZ



I know, not sure why. But it's definitely not the regular BSM. 

No, Toneri was never said to be as strong as Madara nor has he shown himself to be as strong. Like I said, provide the source for that statement and then we can continue to discuss it. Madara being unable to cut the Moon in half is irrelevant when DC doesn't make you the strongest shinobi. Obito and Madara's strongest tech is Juubidama, and those are equal, yet Obito is tiers and tiers and tiers below Madara. Juubidama>>>>anything in RSM Naruto's arsenal bar his twin RS (and even then it might be inferior) yet Obito is considered to be below Naruto at his peak. Same goes with Sasuke. Killer B>>>Itachi in DC, yet B is not considered to be above Itachi by a lot and everyone puts them near each other.

-Toneri and Madara don't have equal hype. Madara is hyped to be unstoppable with his other eye. Madara is stated to have Rikudo's true power w/ his other eye. Toneri has no hype that even compares. Naruto tanked Toneri's blade, meaning the focus of the blade is garbage. All Madara needs is a shield that is the same size as Naruto's body and just as durable if he wants to survive too. Or he can just outright evade it. Not taking the Black Zetsu nonsense argument seriously.

Even then, being able to pressure RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke is a FAR better showing than being beaten by BSM Naruto w/ no Avatar.


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## Itachi san88 (Dec 17, 2015)

> He didn't use Six Paths chakra mode, so what's the point?


Naruto can use Six Paths Chakra even in base form, as it did against Madara

Come on, is obvious that Naruto the last is not a simple BSM, but BSM+Rikudou chakra. And, Madara>>Toneri, just to clarify....


----------



## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No, Toneri was never said to be as strong as Madara nor has he shown himself to be as strong. Like I said, provide the source for that statement and then we can continue to discuss it. Madara being unable to cut the Moon in half is irrelevant when DC doesn't make you the strongest shinobi. Obito and Madara's strongest tech is Juubidama, and those are equal, yet Obito is tiers and tiers and tiers below Madara. Juubidama>>>>anything in RSM Naruto's arsenal bar his twin RS (and even then it might be inferior) yet Obito is considered to be below Naruto at his peak. Same goes with Sasuke. Killer B>>>Itachi in DC, yet B is not considered to be above Itachi by a lot and everyone puts them near each other.


Dude I don't know where the source is but apparently there are plenty of people who have heard the same thing.



I'll watch the movie again and see if I can find it and get a screenshot



KeyofMiracles said:


> -Toneri and Madara don't have equal hype. Madara is hyped to be unstoppable with his other eye. Madara is stated to have Rikudo's true power w/ his other eye. Toneri has no hype that even compares. Naruto tanked Toneri's blade, meaning the focus of the blade is garbage. All Madara needs is a shield that is the same size as Naruto's body and just as durable if he wants to survive too. Or he can just outright evade it. Not taking the Black Zetsu nonsense argument seriously.
> 
> Even then, being able to pressure RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke is a FAR better showing than being beaten by BSM Naruto w/ no Avatar.



Yes Madara was "hyped", hyped being the keyword here, to be unstoppable. He hasn't shown anything that can actually destroy the world. Toneri on the other hand has and almost did so.
It doesn't matter if Madara was hyped to have Rikudo's true power, when Hamura was also his equal. Well, Kinrin Tensei Baku didn't damage Naruto's NTSM because he actually blocked it by concentrating all his chakra in one fist, if he hadn't done this, he'd have been sliced in half with the rest of the moon. Please do enlighten me on how Madara is going to tank something that  can slice the moon in half? Evade it? Naruto is faster than Rinnegan Madara and even he couldn't avoid it, yet you think Madara can. 

You weren't supposed to take the BZ argument seriously, it was just to show how even Madara could secede to someone less powerful than him but that doesn't even matter now since I was wrong about Naruto. Either way feat wise Toneri is stronger.


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

Itachi san88 said:


> Naruto can use Six Paths Chakra even in base form, as it did against Madara
> 
> Come on, is obvious that Naruto the last is not a simple BSM, but BSM+Rikudou chakra. And, Madara>>Toneri, just to clarify....



I concede that Naruto can still use the Six Paths Chakra, however there is still the fact that he didn't display the change in eye pattern normally associated with the Six Paths Chakra mode during his fight with toneri. 

Also come on seriously? Madara>>Toneri? Wut:amazed Assuming you're talking about Rinnegan Madara, how on earth does he compete with Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku, Tenseigan Chakra Mode and Truth seeking balls? Madara has displayed no feats that can tank moon busting powers.


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## Itachi san88 (Dec 17, 2015)

UnjustNation said:


> I concede that Naruto can still use the Six Paths Chakra, however there is still the fact that he didn't display the change in eye pattern normally associated with the Six Paths Chakra mode during his fight with toneri.
> 
> Also come on seriously? Madara>>Toneri? Wut:amazed Assuming you're talking about Rinnegan Madara, how on earth does he compete with Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku, Tenseigan Chakra Mode and Truth seeking balls? Madara has displayed no feats that can tank moon busting powers.


Does not change anything, the Six Paths Chakra is part of him, like Sasuke (also Kakashi had a remarkable change in everything when he had the chakra Rikudou).

No, i mean Juubi Madara >> Toneri.

However, in this thread Naruto has not Rikudou chakra , and he can not beat SM Hashirama for me


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

Itachi san88 said:


> Does not change anything, the Six Paths Chakra is part of him, like Sasuke (also Kakashi had a remarkable change in everything when he had the chakra Rikudou).
> 
> No, i mean Juubi Madara >> Toneri.
> 
> However, in this thread Naruto has not Rikudou chakra , and he can not beat SM Hashirama for me



I am alright with that.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 17, 2015)

are people still claiming that naruto and sasuke possess half of hagoromos chakra despite such a notion being refuted countless times? seriously, how long are people going to continue this farce? 

the half of hagoromos chakra were the yin/yang seals.
sasuke could only use a six paths chidori when he drew chakra from the yin seal. in every other instance, his chidori was white, which means that the six paths chakra was not being used, which would mean that hagoromos chakra is not sasukes own.

both naruto and sasuke lost their seals after they sealed kaguya.
this point alone shuts down any possible counterargument.

sasuke possesses none of hagoromos chakra and the same goes for naruto. 
im not sure why people are still claiming this nonsense when there are very obvious manga panels which lead to a very obvious conclusion.
denial, pure stupidity, who knows?


----------



## Kai (Dec 17, 2015)

And whenever someone brings up the stance you share, the question remains: How was Sasuke able to sense a planet's worth of natural energy at VOTE2?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 17, 2015)

He wasn't. He detected Naruto's increase in Chakra due to the Natural Energy molding with Naruto's own Chakras (Kurama, Naruto's, Rikudou's, whatever that may be) which formed a more powerful chakra. Sasuke detected that with his Dojutsu and commented on the increase of Naruto's Chakra.

 OT: Naruto and Sasuke still have Rikudou's Chakra. If they didn't, Sasuke wouldn't have his Rinnegan.


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## Kai (Dec 17, 2015)

Sasuke noted natural energy specifically. Also he used the term 'feel', a type of sense generally not used when perceived visually through the eyes.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 17, 2015)

UnjustNation said:


> Dude I don't know where the source is but apparently there are plenty of people who have heard the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll watch the movie again and see if I can find it and get a screenshot



Their thoughts are irrelevant. Not a source.




> Yes Madara was "hyped", hyped being the keyword here, to be unstoppable. He hasn't shown anything that can actually destroy the world. Toneri on the other hand has and almost did so.
> It doesn't matter if Madara was hyped to have Rikudo's true power, when Hamura was also his equal. Well, Kinrin Tensei Baku didn't damage Naruto's NTSM because he actually blocked it by concentrating all his chakra in one fist, if he hadn't done this, he'd have been sliced in half with the rest of the moon. Please do enlighten me on how Madara is going to tank something that  can slice the moon in half? Evade it? Naruto is faster than Rinnegan Madara and even he couldn't avoid it, yet you think Madara can.



LMFAOO Stop. You are the one who brought hype into this argument. Don't try and write it off as irrelevant now. Toneri didn't destroy anything nor was he about to. Just more hype and baseless assumptions. 

You aren't even making sense at this point. You say Madara being equal to Rikudo isn't relevant because Hamura=Rikudo, but that'd just mean Madara=Hamura=Hagoromo>>>Toneri as Toneri is not and never will be on hamura's level.

Naruto was hit head on apparently the first time Toneri used it, yet he came from the crater made with a bunch of clones, unscathed. He might've blocked it somehow, but whatever defense he has w/o an Avatar doesn't come close to Madara's defense.

And no   BSM Naruto isn't anywhere near as fast as JJ Madara. Not. Even. Close.



> You weren't supposed to take the BZ argument seriously, it was just to show how even Madara could secede to someone less powerful than him but that doesn't even matter now since I was wrong about Naruto. Either way feat wise Toneri is stronger.



No, he's not.

-Madara's physical parameters are on par with RSM Naruto's. Toneri matches BSM Naruto.
-Naruto beat Toneri w/o an Avatar. He'd get raped by Madara w/o an Avatar even if he used RSM let alone BSM.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasuke noted natural energy specifically. Also he used the term 'feel', a type of sense generally not used when perceived visually through the eyes.



This right here. Inb4 some dumb excuse. Not to mention Hagoromo said he had no chakra left to perform the summoning jutsu to retrieve Naruto and Sasuke from the other dimension. If the chakra was in the seals like this guy and others I have seen believed, then he would've had all his chakra back by the time the moment to summon the others back came.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasuke noted natural energy specifically. Also he used the term 'feel', a type of sense generally not used when perceived visually through the eyes.



 Is that the Viz Translation?

 I'm assuming it is, so I'll concede to this.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2015)

UnjustNation said:


> Naruto beat Toneri and Tenseigan Toneri is equal to Rinnegan Madara (Kishi's own words)
> Rinnegan Madara > Hashirama (all forms)
> Therefore Naruto > Hashirama
> Hashirama's Bijuu handling capabilites are useless in front of sheer power, the same way he couldn't do shit to the ten tails jinchūriki.



Naruto had Rikudou's power up at that oment, isnt that right?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> And whenever someone brings up the stance you share, the question remains: How was Sasuke able to sense a planet's worth of natural energy at VOTE2?


why would sasuke need to have half of hagoromos chakra to sense natural energy? you ignored my argument.

the seals were already confirmed to have the chakra, hence why when sasuke says that he will use the six paths power, he is shown drawing chakra from the yin seal.

sasuke can sense natural energy buildup due to his body being adapted to senjutsu chakra already(_sage transformation from curse seal_).


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 18, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> why would sasuke need to have half of hagoromos chakra to sense natural energy? you ignored my argument.
> 
> the seals were already confirmed to have the chakra, hence why when sasuke says that he will use the six paths power, he is shown drawing chakra from the yin seal.
> 
> *sasuke can sense natural energy buildup due to his body being adapted to senjutsu chakra already(sage transformation from curse seal)*.



What in the.....? Now we all know you are just making shit up here. Sasuke's body being able to handle Senjutsu or Sasuke being a previous wielder of Senjutsu doesn't mean he can sense Nature Energy. Where did you get this explanation from? Clearly wasn't the Manga.  You need to possess Senjutsu to feel Nature Energy. Naruto couldn't sense the Juubi, which is composed of nature energy, until he entered Sage Mode despite his body being adapted to said senjutsu chakra over 2 arcs ago.

And Hagoromo getting his chakra back is also more fanfiction. He stated he had no chakra to summon Naruto and Sasuke back from the other dimension, thus he decided to have the Hokage and past Kage help him out. Why in the hell would this be an issue for him if he got his chakra back with the seals? Hmmm, oh wait. It wouldn't. If the half of Hagoromo's power was located inside the seal then Hagoromo would've been able to perform the summoning on his own.

And no, he didn't ignore your argument. That just shows that the chakra Sasuke got is Senjutsu or has nature energy in it already. Simple.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> What in the.....? Now we all know you are just making shit up here. Sasuke's body being able to handle Senjutsu or Sasuke being a previous wielder of Senjutsu doesn't mean he can sense Nature Energy. Where did you get this explanation from? Clearly wasn't the Manga.  You need to possess Senjutsu to feel Nature Energy. Naruto couldn't sense the Juubi, which is composed of nature energy, until he entered Sage Mode despite his body being adapted to said senjutsu chakra over 2 arcs ago.


your entire claim about sasukes chakra being the same as hagoromos is absolutely shot when:

1. he only used a six paths powered chidori when drawing chakra from the yin seal.

2. in every instance where he doesnt draw chakra from the yin seal, his chidori is white, which means no six paths power.

all im seeing is faulty logic and denial of the obvious. sasuke is already confirmed to possess none of hagoromos chakra, so that means that any means that he used to sense natural energy had nothing to do with him possessing senjutsu.

thus we look into other possibilities.


literally any explanation i come up with would be more inline with the manga than what you are saying. you are adamant about sasuke possessing senjutsu(_or more specifically, hagoromos chakra_) when he was already confirmed to possess none.

possessing sage chakra alone was never stated to give one the ability to sense natural energy, so i dont know where that came from.





> And Hagoromo getting his chakra back is also more fanfiction. He stated he had no chakra to summon Naruto and Sasuke back from the other dimension, thus he decided to have the Hokage and past Kage help him out. Why in the hell would this be an issue for him if he got his chakra back with the seals? Hmmm, oh wait. It wouldn't. If the half of Hagoromo's power was located inside the seal then Hagoromo would've been able to perform the summoning on his own.


he stated that he had no chakra *before* his seals came back to him.

*after* he gets his chakra back, he summons the dead kage and all of them aid in the kuchiyose.


> And no, he didn't ignore your argument. That just shows that the chakra Sasuke got is Senjutsu or has nature energy in it already. Simple.


-six paths chidori is black.
-sasukes chidori is white in every instance where he isnt drawing chakra from the yin seal.

-claims that sasukes own chakra is the same as hagoromos.


-his counter:_ "but sasuke could feel natural energy."_
-yet cant coherently explain how sasuke feeling natural energy and this imaginary half of hagoromos chakra are connected(_obviously because the manga never hinted at such a connection_).
.


----------



## Kai (Dec 18, 2015)

Here Sasuke likens the Rinnegan power to Naruto's Gudodama - both benefits of being blessed with Six Path's power.

No focus on the Yin/Yang seals manifested these powers.

You can't prove Sasuke actually drew power from the Yin Seal as opposed to himself accessing Six Path power. That's like saying Naruto used Shukaku's chakra through his Yang seal in the identical sequence, which is false.

The Yin/Yang seals importance have only ever been stressed when referring to the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.



			
				Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> -his counter: "but sasuke could feel natural energy."
> -yet cant coherently explain how sasuke feeling natural energy and this imaginary half of hagoromos chakra are connected(obviously because the manga never hinted at such a connection).


He could feel the natural energy gathering because he possesses senjutsu. That's the connection


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Dec 18, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> your entire claim about sasukes chakra being the same as hagoromos is absolutely shot when:
> 
> 1. he only used a six paths powered chidori when drawing chakra from the yin seal.
> 
> ...



Oh, so we are still ignoring Manga.  




> literally any explanation i come up with would be more inline with the manga than what you are saying. you are adamant about sasuke possessing senjutsu(_or more specifically, hagoromos chakra_) *when he was already confirmed to possess none*.



Don't know where that was confirmed, but:

-Hagoromo never got his chakra back despite getting the seals back.
-Sasuke can sense Nature Energy post Kaguya fight.

Hmmm.



> possessing sage chakra alone was never stated to give one the ability to sense natural energy, so i dont know where that came from.



I don't care if it was stated or not because that is what was directly shown. 

-BM Naruto can't sense natural energy.
-Enters SM, can sense it.

Hmm, wonder why? Oh wait, because he was using Senjutsu chakra. Don't say it was because of Sage Mode, because then i'd just mention Sasuke being able to sense it at VoTe 2.




> he stated that he had no chakra *before* his seals came back to him.
> 
> *after* he gets his chakra back, he summons the dead kage and all of them aid in the kuchiyose.


  

Stop being an idiot for just one second and start reading the Manga. He told the Edo Hokage he needed help BECAUSE OF THE JUTSU HE WANTED TO PERFORM. Thus the SUMMONING was the thing he needed help with. Not summoning the dead kage as there is no need or way for the edo hokage to help him summon the dead ones. Everything else is irrelevant. Hagoromo never got his chakra back. If he did he wouldn't have needed help to perform the summoning. You've only *assumed *that he was drawing chakra from the yin seal because they focused on his left hand when he was using Chidori. They focused on Naruto's hand when he used his Rasengan, guess Naruto was drawing Hagoromo's power from the seal too.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> Here Sasuke likens the Rinnegan power to Naruto's Gudodama - both benefits of being blessed with Six Path's power.
> 
> No focus on the Yin/Yang seals manifested these powers.


who said anything about the seals being the reason for their powers? 




> You can't prove Sasuke actually drew power from the Yin Seal as opposed to himself accessing Six Path power. That's like saying Naruto used Shukaku's chakra through his Yang seal in the identical sequence, which is false.
> 
> The Yin/Yang seals importance have only ever been stressed when referring to the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.


just like i _"cant prove"_ that naruto used the yang seal to heal gai, correct? its blatantly shown and backed up by statements.

sasukes chidori is white in every other instance except in this one where he is shown accessing the power of the seal. naruto has no need to access the seals power to use senjutsu when he is in six paths sage mode.
sasuke did access hagoromos chakra from the seal in order to use a senjutsu chidori.

theres no need for debate here if you are going to claim that sasuke isnt accessing the yin seals chakra here.


sasuke doesnt "decide" when to use six paths power if that power is naturally imbued in his chakra. 



> He could feel the natural energy gathering because he possesses senjutsu. That's the connection


sasuke is confirmed to possess no senjutsu, so this "connection" is incorrect?


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Oh, so we are still ignoring Manga.


could say the same to you, since you cant form a semi-coherent argument out of the supposed "manga facts" that you have. 





> Don't know where that was confirmed, but:
> 
> -Hagoromo never got his chakra back despite getting the seals back.
> -Sasuke can sense Nature Energy post Kaguya fight.
> ...


-hagoromo performed the kuchiyose as well as summoning all of the dead kages after getting his chakra back. not really sure how clear the manga could make this. 

-thats nice. he still doesnt have senjutsu, as i have already proven. ignore it as much as you want. it doesnt matter when you're argument doesnt have a leg to stand on.




> I don't care if it was stated or not because that is what was directly shown.
> 
> -BM Naruto can't sense natural energy.
> -Enters SM, can sense it.
> ...


yup, it was because of sage mode. sasuke has no sage chakra, so he has an alternative method of sensing natural energy. 
could be due to his rinnegan, but any argument that involves him having sage chakra contradicts the manga.




> Stop being an idiot for just one second and start reading the Manga. He told the Edo Hokage he needed help BECAUSE OF THE JUTSU HE WANTED TO PERFORM. Thus the SUMMONING was the thing he needed help with. Not summoning the dead kage as there is no need or way for the edo hokage to help him summon the dead ones. Everything else is irrelevant. Hagoromo never got his chakra back. If he did he wouldn't have needed help to perform the summoning.


no 

if hagoromo didnt get his seals back then he never wouldve been able to perform the kuchiyose. the chakra in the seals were used for:
-healing gai
-sasukes six paths chidori 
-replacing kakashis eye
-*creating another moon* via six paths CT.

and according to your impeccable logic, both these seals still contained exactly half of hagoromos chakra. 

each seal contained half of hagoromos chakra when given to naruto & sasuke. after a certain amount of chakra in those seals were exhausted, they went back to hagoromo.


does any of this contradict sasuke drawing on the yin seals power to use a six paths chidori?
how about sasukes chidori being white when he doesnt draw power from the yin seal?
nope, im not seeing the contradiction here. the manga panels i presented hold, so sasuke possesses none of hagoromos chakra.



> You've only *assumed *that he was drawing chakra from the yin seal because they focused on his left hand when he was using Chidori. They focused on Naruto's hand when he used his Rasengan, guess Naruto was drawing Hagoromo's power from the seal too.


no, the manga focused on sasukes yin seal with sasuke himself stating that he will use the six paths power, while it merely showed naruto using rasengan.

you're saying that sasuke is using his normal chakra to use six paths chidori? 
its about time that you actually learned to properly comprehend this childrens manga. 

i will use the argument that you just used previously. sasuke accessing chakra from the yin seal was directly shown. 

when sasuke isnt acessing the yin seals chakra, you get a chidori thats *not enhanced by six paths power.*


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Dec 18, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> -hagoromo performed the kuchiyose as well as summoning all of the dead kages after getting his chakra back. not really sure how clear the manga could make this.



And once again this guy continues with his idiotic denial of Manga fact. He summoned the dead kage in the first place because he needed their help. If the seals contained all his chakra then he wouldn't have had to call them back once he got his seals back. The fact that he called them means that he needed them meaning he did not have his chakra.



> -thats nice. he still doesnt have senjutsu, as i have already proven. ignore it as much as you want. it doesnt matter when you're argument doesnt have a leg to stand on.



Except you've proven nothing.



> yup, it was because of sage mode. sasuke has no sage chakra,* so he has an alternative method of sensing natural energy. *
> could be due to his rinnegan, but any argument that involves him having sage chakra contradicts the manga.



Absolutely wrong. There is no "alternative method" so let's not try to invent nonsense so your argument doesn't fall flat on it's face. You need Senjutsu to sense Nature Energy thus Sasuke has Senjutsu. 

Get me any sort of evidence of this alternative method and then we can talk. Rinnegan is false as Pain can't sense Nature Energy. 



> *if hagoromo didnt get his seals back then he never wouldve been able to perform the kuchiyose. *the chakra in the seals were used for:
> -healing gai
> -sasukes six paths chidori
> -replacing kakashis eye
> -*creating another moon* via six paths CT.



What in the hell? The summoning was performed with the help of the kage* because Hagoromo had no chakra to do it himself.* Please. Read. The. Fucking. Manga. He summoned them because he didn't have the chakra to call them back on his own. Why the hell would he call them to help him when he supposedly got his chakra back if we ignore logic and adhere to your argument?

Oh wait, there is no reason. you simply don't make sense as usual.



> and both of those seals still contained exactly half of hagoromos chakra apparently according to your logic.
> 
> 
> hagoromo didnt get back the exact amount of chakra that he gave to naruto and sasuke.



Based on nothing. Chakra being used doesn't mean that it's lost forever.



> does any of this contradict sasuke drawing on the yin seals power to use a six paths chidori?
> how about sasukes chidori being white when he doesnt draw power from the yin seal?
> nope, im not seeing the contradiction here. the manga panels i presented hold, so sasuke possesses none of hagoromos chakra.



Sorry buddy. The Manga explicitly shows that Hagoromo did not get his chakra back, thus unless you are dumb enough to believe it vanished into thin air Naruto and Sasuke kept it.



> no, the manga focused on sasukes yin seal with sasuke himself stating that he will use the six paths power, while it merely showed naruto using rasengan.





The focus of this image is clear. Let's not try and deny it.



> you're saying that sasuke is using his normal chakra to use six paths chidori?
> its about time that you actually learned to properly comprehend this childrens manga.
> 
> i will use the argument that you just used previously. sasuke accessing chakra from the yin seal was directly shown.
> ...



I'll just wait for you to prove the following:

-That the chakra was being drawn from the seal.
-That Hagoromo got his chakra back.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

So how does Sasuke still have his Rinnegan if he lost his Six Paths Chakra?

 How is Sasuke able to display mastery of Yin-Yang Release if he doesn't have Six Paths Power?


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Well. I think we're done here.


a nice way to concede.



> -This guy thinks Rinnegan let Obito sense Nature Energy despite Pain not being able to sense Nature Energy. This guy thinks that Obito even sensed it in the first place when Naruto himself couldn't w/o Sage Mode.  What the hell?


obito sensed it. its blatantly shown, so you're just going to have to deal with it.


> -Says Hagoromo needed help because the chakra in his seals was used up, even though that's based on literally nothing.


because jutsus dont use chakra am i right? 


> -Says NARUTO WHO WAS IN SIX PATHS FUCKING SAGE MODE was channeling the Six Paths Power from his seal for the lulz. Tries to use them sealing Madara as an excuse when that shit isn't needed to initiate the sealing jutsu.


he was channeling the yang seals power to seal madara, something that narutos own six paths sage chakra doesnt allow him to do. once again, you cant respond to my post without strawmanning it.


> Sasuke had Hagoromo's chakra, which is Senjutsu, and that's why he can sense Nature Energy. Not some idiotic imaginary bullshit way that you think exists and definitely not the fucking Rinnegan when Pain was hit by Frog Kata, which wouldn't have happened had the Rinnegan let him sense natural energy. End of story.


his rinnegan allowed him to sense natural energy, just like obitos rinnegan allowed him to sense the juubi. End of story. 


> Oh yeah, and say hello to my ignore list.


-snip-

Watch it 
-Kai


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> sasuke possesses the rinnegans six paths power. the databook simply states that hagoromo gave sasuke the rinnegan. the half of hagoromos chakra inside the seal was entirely separate.



 And the Rinnegan is attained through attaining Rikudou Chakra (Asura + Indra) which Hagoromo admitted.

 If all of Hagoromo's Chakra was inside the seal, then the Six Paths Chakra wouldn't be present within his eyes. That's literally illogical because it's the Chakra stored within the brain that produces the change in the eye. 




> pretty sure that the rinnegan allows someone to potentially master all elements, though im not sure what_ "mastery of yin-yang release"_ sasuke has displayed.



 The Rinnegan is a representation of having Six Paths Power.

 It's the Six Paths Power that enables you to have mastery of Yin-Yang Release:

 2
 2

 Sasuke displayed this by merging the Bijuu into one entity (Juubi) in which Kurama conceded that was Rikudou's level of Chakra Control.

 That display of Yin-Yang Release couldn't have been achieved without Six Paths Power.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> And the Rinnegan is attained through attaining Rikudou Chakra (Asura + Indra) which Hagoromo admitted.
> 
> If all of Hagoromo's Chakra was inside the seal, then the Six Paths Chakra wouldn't be present within his eyes. That's literally illogical because it's the Chakra stored within the brain that produces the change in the eye.


hagoromo gave sasuke the rinnegan which possesses its own six paths power. the yin seal along with the half of hagoromos chakra that it possesses has nothing to do with sasukes rinnegan.





> The Rinnegan is a representation of having Six Paths Power.
> 
> It's the Six Paths Power that enables you to have mastery of Yin-Yang Release:
> 
> ...


yeah, sasuke does have the six paths power. its called the rinnegan


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasuke noted natural energy specifically. Also he used the term 'feel', a type of sense generally not used when perceived visually through the eyes.


...that's _Naruto's_ thoughts, not Sasuke's. Sasuke has no Sage training, he can't sense natural energy.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...that's _Naruto's_ thoughts, not Sasuke's. Sasuke has no Sage training, he can't sense natural energy.



_"How'd he gain so much natural energy so suddenly?!"_ 

does that sound like something that naruto would say to himself?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hagoromo gave sasuke the rinnegan which possesses its own six paths power. the yin seal along with the half of hagoromos chakra that it possesses has nothing to do with sasukes rinnegan.



 That doesn't make sense.

 How did Hagoromo give Sasuke the Rinnegan without Rikudou Chakra if Rikudou Chakra is required in order to attain the Rinnegan? If Sasuke received Half of Rikudou Chakra along w/ the Rinnegan, then that means Naruto received less than half of Rikudou's Chakra which makes no sense.

 You're literally implying that Sasuke received more Six Paths Power than Naruto did despite the fact that Naruto confirms that Sasuke only had Half of Six Paths Power. How did Hagoromo give Sasuke the Rinnegan out of thin air? 



> yeah, sasuke does have the six paths power. its called the rinnegan





 Quit bullshitting me.



			
				Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> * sasuke possesses none of hagoromos chakra * and the same goes for naruto.



 Despite the fact that you stated that Sasuke has no Six Paths Power left.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That doesn't make sense.
> 
> How did Hagoromo give Sasuke the Rinnegan without Rikudou Chakra if Rikudou Chakra is required in order to attain the Rinnegan? If Sasuke received Half of Rikudou Chakra along w/ the Rinnegan, then that means Naruto received less than half of Rikudou's Chakra which makes no sense.


you're just arguing semantics here. 

both naruto and sasuke received half of hagoromos power as stated in the form of the yin/yang seals.

hagoromo simply gave sasuke the rinnegan as per the databooks description.

i dont know why you're coming at me when an explanation is already given by multiple sources.


> You're literally implying that Sasuke received more Six Paths Power than Naruto did despite the fact that Naruto confirms that Sasuke only had Half of Six Paths Power. How did Hagoromo give Sasuke the Rinnegan out of thin air?


nobody received more power. they both got half of hagoromos power via the seals. hagoromo handed sasuke his rinnegan and the biju manifested in naruto, which granted him six paths sage mode.



> Quit bullshitting me.
> 
> 
> 
> Despite the fact that you stated that Sasuke has no Six Paths Power left.


obviously i wasnt talking about the rinnegan, just the half of hagoromos chakra within the yin seal.


----------



## Raiken (Dec 18, 2015)

Not sure about the current state of the debate  but...

Naruto has Hagaromo's Yang Chakra stored in a Seal.
Sasuke has Hagaromo's Yin Chakra stored in a Seal.
Both those seals were directly connected to Hagaromo's Spirit.

That's all Hagaromo gave them.

Those two Chakra's may have had effects on their current powers, but Hagaromo didn't give them anything else besides that.

It might have helped Naruto awaken SPSM.
It might have helped Sasuke awaken the Tomoe-Rinnegan.

But Sasuke would have eventually awakened the Rinnegan without it, he had Indra Chakra and his body was capable of producing Ashura Chakra as he had Hashirama's Chakra/DNA.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you're just arguing semantics here.
> 
> both naruto and sasuke received half of hagoromos power as stated in the form of the yin/yang seals.
> 
> ...



 No it's not.

 Hagoromo confirms that Six Paths Chakra is required to even attain the Rinnegan and the Rinnegan is a Six Paths Power. Tobirama states that the Chakra within the brain reflects a person's Dojutsu meaning that the Rinnegan cannot be attained without Six Paths Chakra.



> nobody received more power. they both got half of hagoromos power via the seals. hagoromo handed sasuke his rinnegan and the biju manifested in naruto, which granted him six paths sage mode.



 The fact that you stated Sasuke received Half of Rikudou's Chakra via Yin Seal and attained the Rinnegan on top of that when the Rinnegan contains Six Paths Chakra implies that Sasuke did receive more than half of Rikudou's Chakra which is contradictory to what the manga displays.

 In order for this theory to work, you have to believe that Sasuke received the Rinnegan out of thin air which is illogical.




> obviously i wasnt talking about the rinnegan, just the half of hagoromos chakra within the yin seal.



 Obviously the Rinnegan requires Six Paths Chakra. No Rikudou Chakra, no Rinnegan.


----------



## Raiken (Dec 18, 2015)

There is Rikudou Chakra stored in each Rinnegan eye.
Two eyes worth of Rikudou Chakra was too much for Obito's Body to handle.
BECAUSE Obito's body didn't produce Rikudou Chakra Naturally. Obito only had some mid-grade Ashura Chakra.
But apparently Nagato's Uzumaki Body was capable of handling two eyes worth of Rikudou Chakra, despite having neither Ashura or Indra Chakra, his Life Force was just that strong.

Those who AWAKEN the Rinnegan, have Bodies that produce Rikudou Chakra Naturally, as opposed to just stored in the eyes, (Hagaromo, Madara, Sasuke).
To have Rikudou Chakra, you must posses Indra & Ashura Chakra.

There are people that possessed pseudo forms of Rikudou Chakra, lower levels of Uchiha Yin+Senju/Uzumaki Yang that was not Indra+Ashura: (Nagato, Obito, Danzou) were all this way.

Sasuke had his own Six Paths Chakra and Hagaromo's Yin Chakra.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> No it's not.
> 
> *Hagoromo confirms that Six Paths Chakra is required to even attain the Rinnegan* and the Rinnegan is a Six Paths Power. Tobirama states that the Chakra within the brain reflects a person's Dojutsu meaning that the Rinnegan cannot be attained without Six Paths Chakra.


no, he simply stated how madara awakened the rinnegan himself. you can get the rinnegan by:

-mixing indra and asuras chakra to create hagoromos chakra.
-hagoromo himself gives it to you(how sasuke got it).




> The fact that you stated Sasuke received Half of Rikudou's Chakra via Yin Seal and attained the Rinnegan on top of that when the Rinnegan contains Six Paths Chakra implies that Sasuke did receive more than half of Rikudou's Chakra which is contradictory to what the manga displays.
> 
> In order for this theory to work, you have to believe that Sasuke received the Rinnegan out of thin air which is illogical.


please, stop grasping at straws 

the yin seal contains hagoromos six paths yin chakra.
the yang seal contains hagoromos six paths yang chakra.

sasukes rinnegans produces six paths chakra, not the sage chakra that hagoromo himself gave naruto and sasuke in the form of the seals.

no, sasuke did not get the rinnegan out of thin air. hagoromo literally handed him his rinnegan. hagoromo can give the rinnegan to anyone he wants.

sasuke has none of hagoromos chakra flowing through his body and this is made evident by his chidori being white unlike a six paths chidori which is black.





> Obviously the Rinnegan requires Six Paths Chakra. No Rikudou Chakra, no Rinnegan.


the rinnegan produces this chakra


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2015)

Buddha grabs Naruto, presses him against the ground, and punches him till he loses consciousness.

edit :

Or he just supresses Kyuubi and kicks him in the balls and drops him.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Buddha grabs Naruto, presses him against the ground, and punches him till he loses consciousness.
> 
> edit :
> 
> Or he just supresses Kyuubi and kicks him in the balls and drops him.



SM Hashirama has Wood Dragon, amped by senjutsu due to Sage Mode, and Myojinmon, also amped by senjutsu. He doesnt need Shinsuusenju, because he has other tools to beat BSM Naruto.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> no, he simply stated how madara awakened the rinnegan himself. you can get the rinnegan by:
> 
> -mixing indra and asuras chakra to create hagoromos chakra.
> -hagoromo himself gives it to you(how sasuke got it).



 Please explain how Hagoromo gave Sasuke the Rinnegan without giving him Six Paths Chakra. You're suggesting he gave it out of thin air. 



> please, stop grasping at straws
> 
> the yin seal contains hagoromos six paths yin chakra.
> the yang seal contains hagoromos six paths yang chakra.



 The Yin and Yang Seal are only considered techniques based on Kaguya's affirmation. They don't contain Rikudou's Chakra and are only meant to be used as Sealing techniques.



> sasukes rinnegans produces six paths chakra, not the sage chakra that hagoromo himself gave naruto and sasuke in the form of the seals.



 And explain how Sasuke attained the Rinnegan. The only thing that was shown to have been given was his Six Paths Chakra and based on what Rikudou states, the only way Sasuke had done so is by receiving Six Paths Chakra. Therefore, if he has his Rinnegan, he still has Six Paths Chakra.

 If Sasuke did receive the Rinnegan that way, then he simply received more power than Naruto did which is contradictory to what Hagoromo stated.



> no, sasuke did not get the rinnegan out of thin air. hagoromo literally handed him his rinnegan. hagoromo can give the rinnegan to anyone he wants.



 So he plucked one of his eyes out and gave it to Sasuke?



> sasuke has none of hagoromos chakra flowing through his body and this is made evident by his chidori being white unlike a six paths chidori which is black.



 Nope, he's shown the ability to use it without his Yin Seal.



> the rinnegan produces this chakra



 And to attain it without any implantation, you need Six Paths Chakra.


----------



## Kai (Dec 18, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> who said anything about the seals being the reason for their powers?


Oh good, then we agree the seals are dedicating to sealing.





			
				Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> just like i _"cant prove"_ that naruto used the yang seal to heal gai, correct? its blatantly shown and backed up by statements.


I sense circular reasoning.


			
				Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> *who said anything about the seals being the reason for their powers? *


ck



			
				Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> sasukes chidori is white in every other instance except in this one where he is shown accessing the power of the seal. naruto has no need to access the seals power to use senjutsu when he is in six paths sage mode.
> sasuke did access hagoromos chakra from the seal in order to use a senjutsu chidori.
> 
> theres no need for debate here if you are going to claim that sasuke isnt accessing the yin seals chakra here.


Well you may possibly be right. Maybe not. 
What we do know is they were ready to make use of their seals here. Comes off unlikely they were drawing power from their seals and then deciding to use their seals for Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

Shukaku stated Naruto can use his chakra to bind Madara's movement. If Naruto was drawing power from the Yang Seal like you suggest he would be drawing upon Hagoromo's chakra, something you also suggest which is false.



			
				Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> sasuke doesnt "decide" when to use six paths power if that power is naturally imbued in his chakra.


He wasn't "deciding" to use Six Paths power. In the official Viz he states that he *has* Six Paths power.




			
				Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> sasuke is confirmed to possess no senjutsu, so this "connection" is incorrect?


It's impossible to feel natural energy without senjutsu 
I think you should let this one go my friend.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...that's _Naruto's_ thoughts, not Sasuke's. Sasuke has no Sage training, he can't sense natural energy.


This was only a brief matter of debate at the time before the official Viz was released. Case was put to rest once it did, and it was established to be from Sasuke's pov.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Please explain how Hagoromo gave Sasuke the Rinnegan without giving him Six Paths Chakra. You're suggesting he gave it out of thin air.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this is starting to be a waste of time. i literally countered all of this. if you dont agree, i cant be bothered. my stance is blatantly reiterated by the databook itself.



> Nope, he's shown the ability to use it without his Yin Seal.


ck

yup, we are done here.


Kai said:


> Oh good, then we agree the seals are dedicating to sealing.


yeah, thats the main purpose of the seals. its not the only thing they can do though.




> I sense circular reasoning.
> 
> ck


who would be guilty of this though? the person reiterating panel or the person denying the obvious?

the yang seal has nothing to do with six paths sage mode. narutos healing ability was not his own. it was an ability of the yang seal.



> Well you may possibly be right. Maybe not.
> What we do know is they were ready to make use of their seals here. *Comes off unlikely they were drawing power from their seals and then deciding to use their seals for Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.*
> 
> Shukaku stated Naruto can use his chakra to bind Madara's movement. If Naruto was drawing power from the Yang Seal like you suggest he would be drawing upon Hagoromo's chakra, something you also suggest which is false.


thats exactly what they were shown to do. 

naruto did use shukakus chakra to bind madaras movement. 
drawing chakra from both isnt possible because....what?




> He wasn't "deciding" to use Six Paths power. In the official Viz he states that he *has* Six Paths power.


yeah, he had the yin seal. not sure why the *six paths* yin seal isnt six paths power.


> It's impossible to feel natural energy without senjutsu
> I think you should let this one go my friend.


nope. obito sensed the juubi when BM naruto and bee thought they destroyed it.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:
			
		

> So he plucked one of his eyes out and gave it to Sasuke?



 I'm going to continue posting this until you give me an answer. If not, you simply conceded because you have no logical explanation to how Sasuke received his Rinnegan without Six Path's Chakra.

 If anything, what you're arguing is absolutely ridiculous.



			
				Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> hagoromo literally handed him his rinnegan. hagoromo can give the rinnegan to anyone he wants.



 But then again, I guess you admitted that he did here which is absolutely ridiculous and never indicated at all. Funny argument though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 19, 2015)

Kai said:


> This was only a brief matter of debate at the time before the official Viz was released. Case was put to rest once it did, and it was established to be from Sasuke's pov.


No, it was Naruto's. Naruto was the only person who HAD Sage Training there. Only those people who learned to become Sages can perceive Natural Energy, Kai. Sasuke has no training thus he wasn't talking about it, it was Naruto's thought process.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 19, 2015)

You're implying he was thinking a question to himself about Kurama's action, while telepathically communicating with Kurama through his thoughts?

It's clear, for two reasons, why that's Sasuke's thought. 

1. Someone said "he" not "you" while Naruto was sustaining an open telepathic communication network with Kurama. Why wouldn't Naruto just ask Kurama, ergo referring to him as "you" making it an open question instead of "he" making it a rhetorical thought if he's literally communicating with Kurama through his thoughts...?

2. Naruto knew how he gained it, Kurama was inside his body the entire time go figure, he's a not only a master sage, he's now a super sage, there's no way he wasn't aware how much he was gaining as time passed especially considering he was in Rikudo Sage Mode the entire time manipulating his own Senjutsu and using his sensory to the max [1]


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## Kai (Dec 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, it was Naruto's. Naruto was the only person who HAD Sage Training there. Only those people who learned to become Sages can perceive Natural Energy, Kai. Sasuke has no training thus he wasn't talking about it, it was Naruto's thought process.


Mangahelpers for any clarifications you may need.
[1]



			
				aegon-rokudo said:
			
		

> kura: maybe I accumulated a little too much of it\\
> kura: this is all I the chakra I have on the surface! Take it!!\\
> naru: here it is!\\
> *sasu: I can feel it…!\\
> ...



And Naruto won't keep thoughts to himself when he communicates with Kurama directly through his thoughts


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## Rai (Dec 19, 2015)

Juubi can't be sensed as stated by Kurama.

Obto didn't sense shit. He simply knew just like Itachi knew that Sasuke wasn't killed by Deidara's explosion; Plot.

Sasuke awakened Rinnegan by mixing Indra and Ashura's chakra + near death experience.


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