# Aizen vs naruto verse characters,



## kaminogan (May 14, 2014)

Aizen has already invoked his hypnosis on the characters, this is NOT a gauntlet,

Aizen fights them individually and at full health every time, Aizen does not have the hogyoku and has  kabutos knowledge of the naruto world,

scen 2: same as above but Aizen has the hogyoku,

scen 3: same as scen 1 but Aizen has no knowledge of the naruto world,

EXTRA: Aizen vs yahiko (deva) pain, IC, no other restrictions,

all battles take place in konoha,

POST


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## LazyWaka (May 14, 2014)

1: He beats anyone below Bijuu level.

2: same

3: Again, Same

Extra: Aizen wins.


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## Blanco (May 14, 2014)

Kyouka Suigetsu is pretty underrated lol


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## Zeno (May 14, 2014)

> Aizen
> lelAizen
> lelKS

He should beat anyone without ESP bar the obvious.


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## Stan Lee (May 14, 2014)

I just was wondering if KS can effect the limbo clone(s).


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## LazyWaka (May 14, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> I just was wondering if KS can effect the limbo clone(s).



Unless it has shown to effect something that exists in an alternate reality, it probably wont.


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## Blanco (May 14, 2014)

Aizen stops at Hiruzen shinigami


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 14, 2014)

Prime Monkey Sage solos


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## LazyWaka (May 14, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Prime Monkey Sage solos



Boring joke is boring.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 14, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Boring joke is boring.



Who said I was joking?


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 14, 2014)

Does KS mask Aizen's presence? I don't know if this was explored in Bleach, but if it doesn't, I don't think he'd get far as I gather speed and reactions are significantly higher in the Narutoverse.


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## justiceseeker (May 14, 2014)

> Does KS mask Aizen's presence? I don't know if this was explored in Bleach, but if it doesn't, I don't think he'd get far as I gather speed and reactions are significantly higher in the Narutoverse.



nope, Bleach just lacks sufficient calcs but Aizen is actually MHS just as most important people in Nardo


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## Sablés (May 14, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> *Does KS mask Aizen's presence*? I don't know if this was explored in Bleach, but if it doesn't, I don't think he'd get far as I gather speed and reactions are significantly higher in the Narutoverse.



To an extent, yes


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 14, 2014)

^How so? 

I thought KS couldn't affect anything beyond the object being masked, meaning Aizen was basically in plain sight. Just that superior speed and/or reiatsu suppression are reasons why he snuffs people before they become aware of him.

... Which would become a problem when against characters with higher speed and/or reaction calcs.


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## Sablés (May 14, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> ^How so?
> 
> I thought KS couldn't affect anything beyond the object being masked, meaning Aizen was basically in plain sight. Just that superior speed and/or reiatsu suppression are reasons why he snuffs people before they become aware of him.
> 
> ... Which would become a problem when against characters with higher speed and/or reaction calcs.



Because Arrancar have abilities like Pesquisa which function as a sonar and more adept version of reiatsu sensing. If Aizen masked whatever object as a clone, they would still be able to sense the real one given he's still in close proximity.


*Spoiler*: __ 








That said by Yama's admission, while Aizen's own reiatsu/presence might be masked, his Zanpakuto can't be but given he needed Aizen to impale him with it first, it's not all that easy either.


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## Vicotex (May 14, 2014)

>Aizen MHS , when did it happen?


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## Iwandesu (May 14, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> >Aizen MHS , when did it happen?


Never was accepted. 
Aizen ks will be meaningless to characters which can sense things at others dimensions like rm nardo and worthy a damn god tiers, btw.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 14, 2014)

Sables said:
			
		

> Because Arrancar have abilities like Pesquisa which function as a sonar and more adept version of reiatsu sensing. If Aizen masked whatever object as a clone, they would still be able to sense the real one given he's still in close proximity.



Grimmjow needed to close his eyes and "activate" Pesquisa. It's no indication that Aizen somehow masks his reiatsu. The only time I remember seeing a passive Pesquisa was during Ulquiorra's R2, something which is unique to him.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 14, 2014)

*no indication *KS* masks his reiatsu.

[Double-posting because cannot edit posts on phone.]


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## LazyWaka (May 14, 2014)

That would kinda make everyone in the bleach verse morons since they can all passively sense Reiatsu.


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## Sablés (May 14, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Grimmjow needed to close his eyes and "activate" Pesquisa. It's no indication that Aizen somehow masks his reiatsu. The only time I remember seeing a passive Pesquisa was during Ulquiorra's R2, something which is unique to him.



Everyone in Bleach senses reiatsu. Pesquisa is a specialized form for the arrancars, considering Yammy couldn't sense whether Tatsuki was worth a damn, chances are it's no different than the Shunpo/Sonido dynamic.

If KS couldn't mask Aizen's reiatsu. Nobody would ever fall for Kyoka Suigetsu.


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## Agmaster (May 14, 2014)

Are we still trying to find ways to downplay Bleach?  Man Kubo.  Thanks for the longevity


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## LineageCold (May 14, 2014)

Kakashi kamui's his head off.



GG.


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## Iwandesu (May 14, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Everyone in Bleach senses reiatsu. Pesquisa is a specialized form for the arrancars, considering Yammy couldn't sense whether Tatsuki was worth a damn, chances are it's no different than the Shunpo/Sonido dynamic.
> 
> If KS couldn't mask Aizen's reiatsu. Nobody would ever fall for Kyoka Suigetsu.


Makes sense. 
He still is not touching god tiers nor he can fool RM sensibilidade which sensed kyuubi chakra from at least many thousands of kilometers away and arguably from other dimension.


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## LazyWaka (May 14, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Kakashi kamui's his head off.
> 
> 
> 
> GG.



Silly lineage, Kakashi doesn't have Kamui anymore.


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## LineageCold (May 14, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Silly lineage, Kakashi doesn't have Kamui anymore.



You lack faith


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 14, 2014)

Madara doesn't have it either though.


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## Linkofone (May 14, 2014)

All according to Plan.


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## Iwandesu (May 14, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Madara doesn't have it either though.


Just read the last chapter and this sucks. 
Is this a jupiter level mindfuck  I'm sensing, though?


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## Neruc (May 14, 2014)

Wait, so lolkamui is gone forever?

What is this treachery?

And why didn't it happen sooner?


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## Cave Jansen (May 14, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Silly lineage, Kakashi doesn't have Kamui anymore.



Ah, time for Zetsu to shine.


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## Linkofone (May 14, 2014)

^ That's that one guy right?


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## Linkofone (May 14, 2014)

^^

I knew it was him. 

But I couldn't have done it without the Rower


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## Stermor (May 15, 2014)

most naruto chars would just be forced to pull a kenpachi.. ks would effect them aizen woudl stab them. they would react and then kill aizen before they are fully impaled.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 15, 2014)

Sables said:
			
		

> Everyone in Bleach senses reiatsu. Pesquisa is a specialized form for the arrancars, considering Yammy couldn't sense whether Tatsuki was worth a damn, chances are it's no different than the Shunpo/Sonido dynamic.
> 
> If KS couldn't mask Aizen's reiatsu. Nobody would ever fall for Kyoka Suigetsu.





			
				LazyWaka said:
			
		

> That would kinda make everyone in the bleach verse morons since they can all passively sense Reiatsu.



Yes, they can all passively sense reiatsu. Just that unless they're Tousen, they cannot sense reiatsu with the radar/sonar kind of finesse that Sables is implying *passively*.

When faced with the combination of Aizen's rather significantly superior stats, psychological warfare and KS's near-perfect illusions, they stood no chance. Why? Because being able to sense Aizen's presence doesn't mean they:
A) Have the calm presence of mind to sense it.
B) Have the reactions to process to do anything other than get blitzed.
C) Can split their attention away from the may-or-may-not-be Aizen in front of them (who they know can drop them in the blink of an eye).
D) Can even sense him with all the above going on in the first place if Aizen suppresses his reiatsu until just prior to attacking.

The idea he must be aided by KS for him to execute his feats strikes me as contrived.


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## Ashi (May 15, 2014)

Linkofone said:


> ^^
> 
> I knew it was him.
> 
> But I couldn't have done it without the Rower



Yes you could


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## ShadowReaper (May 15, 2014)

Even at his best form still gets wreckred by RM Nardo/EMS Sasuke.


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## Chad (May 15, 2014)

Kamui bfr gg


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## Sablés (May 15, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Yes, they can all passively sense reiatsu. Just that unless they're Tousen, they cannot sense reiatsu with the radar/sonar kind of finesse that Sables is implying *passively*.
> 
> When faced with the combination of Aizen's rather significantly superior stats, psychological warfare and KS's near-perfect illusions, they stood no chance. Why? Because being able to sense Aizen's presence doesn't mean they:
> A) Have the calm presence of mind to sense it.
> ...



*sigh* I hate arguing semantics.

Kyoka Suigetsu can fabricate reiatsu signatures of any variety and warp the senses to envision whatever Aizen sees fit and we know first hand that it's impossible for a Captain-level combatant to be unable to detect even the faintest traces of reiatsu in combat [], Aizen doesn't have the means to simply hide away from them.  Not to mention that if he was capable of the above, why on Earth would doing the same to his own body be the exception? That's something you would have to prove.

Furthermore, unless you're somehow under the impression that Aizen has the physical ability required to blitz Yamamoto or KS could be dealt with that easily, Unohana wouldn't have felt the need to make this .


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## LazyWaka (May 16, 2014)

ShadowReaper said:


> Even at his best form still gets wreckred by RM Nardo/EMS Sasuke.



No, RM Naruto isn't beating him. EMS Sasuke, while has the firepower advantage with PS, is ineffective against foes with high level regen (really only applies to Hogyoku Aizen scenarios though.)


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## kaminogan (May 16, 2014)

KS controls the 5 senses, even if a senser (like SM naruto) could detect his presence they would still have to deal with all there other senses getting in the way,

metaphor: its like having built in sonar while getting bombarded by teargas and pepper spray,


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## LazyWaka (May 16, 2014)

kaminogan said:


> KS controls the 5 senses, even if a senser (like SM naruto) could detect his presence they would still have to deal with all there other senses getting in the way,
> 
> metaphor: its like having built in sonar while getting bombarded by teargas and pepper spray,



Naruto's sensing abilities have been shown to be good enough that he can essentially fight blindfolded (he could clearly sense Kakashi and Co on the opposite side of a country.)


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## kaminogan (May 16, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Naruto's sensing abilities have been shown to be good enough that he can essentially fight blindfolded (he could clearly sense Kakashi and Co on the opposite side of a country.)



i, dont see how that helps him here, 

im not saying that he cant sense aizen, just that he would still have to deal with the other senses,

this is actually difficult to discuss, since we dont know how characters would react and thus have to use RL examples,


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## LazyWaka (May 16, 2014)

kaminogan said:


> i, dont see how that helps him here,
> 
> im not saying that he cant sense aizen, just that he would still have to deal with the other senses,
> 
> this is actually difficult to discuss, since we dont know how characters would react and thus have to use RL examples,



Well current Naruto can fight Madara's Limbo clones which are completely undetectable by the 5 main senses, so really I don't see why it's a problem for him.


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## Linkofone (May 16, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Yes you could



Sing the song!


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## Lurko (May 16, 2014)

Kami Aizen ain't trolling here quite the opposite.


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## LightspeedLanza (May 16, 2014)

Base shinigami Aizen alone destroys edo madara. Idk how Narutoverse stands an inkling of a chance.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 16, 2014)

Sables said:
			
		

> *sigh* I hate arguing semantics.



... I thought we were arguing about the differences between focused vs passive reiatsu detection. When did this degrade into semantics?



			
				Sables said:
			
		

> Kyoka Suigetsu can fabricate reiatsu signatures of any variety and warp the senses to envision whatever Aizen sees fit



No. It can make all of someone's senses misinterpret something as something else[1]. The idea it can do this to individual senses and it can remove certain sensory stimuli to thus make Aizen's reiatsu and/or body disappear is all you.

[1] 



			
				Sables said:
			
		

> and we know first hand that it's impossible for a Captain-level combatant to be unable to detect even the faintest traces of reiatsu in combat [1],



Impossible, huh? Mayuri forgot to inform Nnoitra[2].

[2] 



			
				Sables said:
			
		

> Aizen doesn't have the means to simply hide away from them.



He has speed sufficient to drop 3 captains, one of them a senior, *simultaneously*. FKT, SS and Rukongai have buildings and forests to provide cover. I've debunked that it is impossible for someone to be unable to detect traces of reiatsu in combat with evidence more recent than yours.

If you think that's still not enough, he still has options[3].

[3] 




			
				Sables said:
			
		

> Not to mention that if he was capable of the above, why on Earth would doing the same to his own body be the exception? That's something you would have to prove.



I'm not arguing whether or not he can KS himself. He did as much with the whole Hinamori fiasco in FKT.

I'm arguing against:

A) KS being able to manipulate or remove individual sensory stimuli. An ability that was never stated but remains necessary to support your conclusion that it can mask Aizen's reiatsu / LOS.

B) The idea that Aizen couldn't execute his feats without having A).



			
				Sables said:
			
		

> Furthermore, unless you're somehow under the impression that Aizen has the physical ability required to blitz Yamamoto or KS could be dealt with that easily, Unohana wouldn't have felt the need to make this comment.



Yamamoto is irrelevant. I'm speaking for what he's already done, not what he *could* do. And what he did, was let WW handle Yama.

As for the second part, remember what Gin said? I can't find the manga page, but I remember the gist of it being "Aizen isn't scary because of KS." You think he would do that if KS was the solely the reason why Aizen could go HAM and FUBAR the G13?


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## Stermor (May 16, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> No, RM Naruto isn't beating him. EMS Sasuke, while has the firepower advantage with PS, is ineffective against foes with high level regen (really only applies to Hogyoku Aizen scenarios though.)



why isn't rm naruto beating aizen? his shroud tanks everything aizen can dish out, and he can sense aizens emotions. so sneaking up on him is impossible.. 

rm naruto casually crushes aizen without much problems. 

also amaterasu works quite well on high regen as shown by the cereberus summon from pain.


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## Stan Lee (May 16, 2014)

LightspeedLanza said:


> Base shinigami Aizen alone destroys edo madara.



How can he?



> Idk how Narutoverse stands an inkling of a chance.



Limbo clones smack the taste out his mouth.


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## tkpirate (May 16, 2014)

^ he is just a troll so ignore him.





Stermor said:


> why isn't rm naruto beating aizen? his shroud tanks everything aizen can dish out, and he can sense aizens emotions. so sneaking up on him is impossible..



RM Naruto dosen't have 100+ gigaton durability.so no he can't tank Aizen's attacks.


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## LazyWaka (May 16, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> ^ he is just a troll so ignore him.
> 
> RM Naruto dosen't have 100+ gigaton durability.so no he can't tank Aizen's attacks.



Technically the only Aizen that gets powerscaled to those are the transcended versions.


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## tkpirate (May 16, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Technically the only Aizen that gets powerscaled to those are the transcended versions.



yeah,that's right.


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## ShadowReaper (May 16, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> No, RM Naruto isn't beating him. EMS Sasuke, while has the firepower advantage with PS, is ineffective against foes with high level regen (really only applies to Hogyoku Aizen scenarios though.)



RM Naruto can fully use Kyuubi's power, although he can't use SM+BM at the same time. It's only after he met Hagaroma he could use other Bijuu's power and utilise SM with his Bijuu power.

And current Sasuke is almost as strong as current Naruto. And if Aizen is so durable, then why did it take him so long for him to recover from Final Getsuga Tenshou? Yes, the seal did stop his transformation but the attack did affect him quite a bit.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2014)

ShadowReaper said:


> RM Naruto can fully use Kyuubi's power, although he can't use SM+BM at the same time. It's only after he met Hagaroma he could use other Bijuu's power and utilise SM with his Bijuu power.
> 
> And current Sasuke is almost as strong as current Naruto. And if Aizen is so durable, then why did it take him so long for him to recover from Final Getsuga Tenshou? Yes, the seal did stop his transformation but the attack did affect him quite a bit.



BSM was a thing before the recent powerup, you can see it here and before as well


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## wthemanjr (May 31, 2014)

Lol... wow people really believe Aizen won't solo the naruto verse... besides the fact the speed gap between bleach and naruto verse is huge sans the top tier.. what exactly does anyone have to beat complete hypnosis...Something that has never been broken.. Giving him the hogyoku is overkill seeing as he can't die


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## Iwandesu (May 31, 2014)

wthemanjr said:


> Lol... wow people really believe Aizen won't solo the naruto verse... besides the fact the speed gap between bleach and naruto verse is huge sans the top tier.. what exactly does anyone have to beat complete hypnosis...Something that has never been broken.. Giving him the hogyoku is overkill seeing as he can't die


He gets murked by god tiers with, with sub relativistic a reaction continental level and dimensional senses.


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## Ashi (May 31, 2014)

Neruc said:


> Wait, so lolkamui is gone forever?
> 
> What is this treachery?
> 
> And why didn't it happen sooner?



Obitsu still has Kamui


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## Akatora (Jun 7, 2014)

A little late at replying
but seeing the talks about reiatsu sensing being nothing special compared to Naruto characters being able to locate characters:







Even though characters were able to sense like this, they were still pulled byt the strings of KS even when knowing it.
THe thing is you don't know if what you see is real or fake since it could switch at any moment.

Add to this Aizen can become invisible and turn some things invisible, which if we were to give him knowlede of the OBD rules he could just make a invisible portal to hm or ss infront of his opponent who'd lose by leaving the battlefield(unless ofcause they'rer to big to fit the opening)


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## Vicotex (Jun 7, 2014)

Definately NLF.


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## Lurko (Jun 7, 2014)

Aizen obviously soloes Kaguya.


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## Akatora (Jun 7, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> Definately NLF.



Well I agree regarding the portal being unlikely, since we don't know for sure what the Kido can turn invisible.
What we do know is it can turn people Invisible and it can turn Kido traps(Large flying mine fields) invisible, so the big question is if this can be applied to the gates aswell.(Though even if it could it shouldn't out of how boring it would turn battles)



Eitherway my main point was rather the sensing ability of one verse vs the other.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 7, 2014)

Akatora said:


> Well I agree regarding the portal being unlikely, since we don't know for sure what the Kido can turn invisible.
> What we do know is it can turn people Invisible and it can turn Kido traps(Large flying mine fields) invisible, so the big question is if this can be applied to the gates aswell.(Though even if it could it shouldn't out of how boring it would turn battles)
> Eitherway my main point was rather the sensing ability of one verse vs the other.


He also sensed kinkaku's chakra while inside of an anti-sensor barrier which was several hundred of kilometers away from the battlefield.   

On BM mode he can sense others chakra and shape his own in a way to replicate the microscopic differences btw each other. 
Current nardo not only has better senses than any of the above,  as could fight and sense invisible limbo clone which exists on another dimension/plane.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 8, 2014)

Akatora said:


> A little late at replying
> but seeing the talks about reiatsu sensing being nothing special compared to Naruto characters being able to locate characters:
> 
> 
> ...



wait is that last panel like specifically fullbringer only or anything? Cause that would imply a hell of a lot about sensing and KS if not.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jun 8, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> wait is that last panel like specifically fullbringer only or anything? Cause that would imply a hell of a lot about sensing and KS if not.



No, everyone worth a salt can do that.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 8, 2014)

well than


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## Takahashi (Jun 8, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> wait is that last panel like specifically fullbringer only or anything? Cause that would imply a hell of a lot about sensing and KS if not.



I would imagine that's how Tousen fought.

There's also this: 


Seeing Reiatsu was apparently proof of the reemergence of Shinigami powers, so no, it shouldn't be restricted to FBs, probably just spiritual beings.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 8, 2014)

danke.

so that basically proves that KS cannot possibly not work on Reiatsu sensing then right?

Because if at the time bottom tier ichigo could sense in that much detail there is no way anyone remotely relevant wouldn't have been able to sense Aizen standing around sipping tea while his clones fight right?


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## Takahashi (Jun 8, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> danke.
> 
> so that basically proves that KS cannot possibly not work on Reiatsu sensing then right?



I wouldn't say it proves anything definitively.  KS' description is that it controls the 5 senses, but maybe there is some general Reiatsu fuckery involved.  Techs are fueled by Reiryoku after all.

Or not, because hiding Reiatsu is something that many characters can do extremely well.  We also saw Aizen use some concealing Kido in the TBTP arc, and even Momo has shown proficiency with some disguise-like Kido.

It's worth noting that Ginjo wanted Ichigo to see his Reiatsu.  Maybe if you hide it, it's not so easy to detect.



> Because if at the time bottom tier ichigo could sense in that much detail there is no way anyone remotely relevant wouldn't have been able to sense Aizen standing around sipping tea while his clones fight right?



It's tough to say what the mechanics behind Reiatsu sensing really "look like" in those situations.  

For example, when Tousen first met Komamura, he completely mistook where he was.  He extended his hand towards nothing, which is a mistake he shouldn't make if he could see people's Reiatsu outlines.  In this case, it seemed as if Tousen's senses were simply a general feeling, and most instances of Reiatsu sensing seem to operate in a similar fashion.

That being said, the outline that Ichigo saw is straight-up attributed to his Shinigami powers, so there must be something to it.  Also, like I said, Tousen could swordfight while blind, so it must have the capacity for extreme accuracy.

I just realized that my entire post basically says "fuck if I know".


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## Vicotex (Jun 8, 2014)

Rm senses is above KS


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## Akatora (Jun 8, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> Rm senses is above KS



Possibly, but now you got me curious on a couple of points:

1)Was the sensing restricted to Biju related stuff?
2) Where did the 100+ km come from?
3) how strong are we to believe the barrier is?


Just saying Biju's with a high amount of energy should be easier to track than small fries.


Also regarding bleach and sensing souls:




Hard to use Rukia to scale there given she's pretty much without her powers, so if she's refering to how she normaly is or how she currently is is unknown.

distance could be anything from a couple of meters to 7.8 km (probably 0.5-2 km area)


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## Iwandesu (Jun 8, 2014)

Akatora said:


> Possibly, but now you got me curious on a couple of points:
> 
> 1)Was the sensing restricted to Biju related stuff?
> 2) Where did the 100+ km come from?
> ...


Actually even 100+ km might have been a low balling considering how the battlefield by itself was calculated within thousands of kilometers.(Due to nardo planet being bigger than jupiter and all)
>the barrier should be enough to counter alliance sensitive tecnology (which can sense the whole battlefield as shown on the HQ panels.) Due to nardo being a sensor type and how they couldn't afford he going to the battlefield.
> no idea about the 1st point, but unlikely . and yeah, bijju should be easier to track,and still bee didn't sensed ginkaku at all.


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## tkpirate (Jun 8, 2014)

Akatora said:


> Possibly, but now you got me curious on a couple of points:
> 1)Was the sensing restricted to Biju related stuff?
> 2) Where did the 100+ km come from?
> 3) how strong are we to believe the barrier is?
> )



well,i'm not sure if i can help you,but i will try to answer some of this.

1.Naruto sensed edo Hokage's from a country long distance also Tobirama who is a sensor type ninja,sensed Madara from same distance.

2.we don't have a exact number for the distance,but KCM Naruto who is atleast hypersonic+ took atleast few hours to get to the battlefield.so we can say that the distance is probably bigger.also as i said before that Naruto can sense people from country long distance.

3.i'm not sure about the barrier,but Bee stated that it's impossible to sense chakra outside the chamber from inside the chamber.also that temple was strong enough to lock up a bijuu.

also if we're talking about Naruto's sensing ability,then it should be noted that Naruto's sensing ability isn't only restricted to chakra/energy sensing.he also has emotion sensing.


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## LazyWaka (Jun 8, 2014)

RM Naruto senses emotions. KS hasn't shown to work on that. So in that case it's fair game.


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## Akatora (Jun 8, 2014)

> .(they can completely copy and paste shinobi chakra down to below nanocelular level)



THat sounds like speculation going out of hand but if you say so.



> 2.we don't have a exact number for the distance,but KCM Naruto who is atleast hypersonic+ took atleast few hours to get to the battlefield.so we can say that the distance is probably bigger.also as i said before that Naruto can sense people from country long distance.



And this is what's been used to calc the distance?
Oh boy the magnitude of risk basing everything on speed calcs...




> RM Naruto senses emotions. KS hasn't shown to work on that. So in that case it's fair game.



By any chance do you have some samples of this emotion sensing?
I'll take a look at bleach if needed.

Emotion sensing can be based around other senses like vision for reading expressions, hearing to listen to the pulse etc.


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## tkpirate (Jun 8, 2014)

Akatora said:


> And this is what's been used to calc the distance?
> Oh boy the magnitude of risk basing everything on speed calcs...


 no,as i said we don't have a exact number.but we could assume a distance with that.


> By any chance do you have some samples of this emotion sensing?
> I'll take a look at bleach if needed.
> 
> Emotion sensing can be based around other senses like vision for reading expressions, hearing to listen to the pulse etc.



Naruto sensed Kisame through emotion senseing,when Kisame was hiding in Samehada.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jun 8, 2014)

Though iirc, Naruto's emotion sensing, senses negative emotions and killing intent.(which i don't think aizen has expressed)
Current nardo's sensing is fair game though, but he is someone current Aizen can't beat eitherway.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jun 8, 2014)

Linkofone said:


> This topic is still going on.



Which is quite surprising.

Given the RR to Seireitei speed feat was put through and accepted, that should change how the thread plays out a bit.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 8, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Though iirc, Naruto's emotion sensing, senses negative emotions and killing intent.(which i don't think aizen has expressed)
> .



well,if Aizen is trying to kill Naruto in a fight wouldn't he have negative emotions and killing intent?


----------



## Ashi (Jun 8, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Though iirc, Naruto's emotion sensing, senses negative emotions and killing intent.(which i don't think aizen has expressed)
> Current nardo's sensing is fair game though, but he is someone current Aizen can't beat eitherway.



He doesn't need to express it, if he wants him dead, Naruto will know


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 8, 2014)

Akatora said:


> THat sounds like speculation going out of hand but if you say so
> And this is what's been used to calc the distance?
> Oh boy the magnitude of risk basing everything on speed calcs...
> By any chance do you have some samples of this emotion sensing?
> ...


Base 3 eyes Sharingan can sense nanosized nuances on chakra (sauce sensing Deidara nanobombs) Yet, even MS kakashi was completely unable to tell them apart.
Nardo sensing is based on the flux of energy he can notice any odd intent. He sensed kisame on samehada besides sensitives being unable to do it,  he sensed each one of the zetsus regardless if they were being friendly or not. 
>Nope, the battlefield was calculated with maps and scalling.


----------



## Linkofone (Jun 8, 2014)

Catalyst75 said:


> Which is quite surprising.
> 
> Given the RR to Seireitei speed feat was put through and accepted, that should change how the thread plays out a bit.



I don't even think I understand what is going on anymore.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jun 8, 2014)

Linkofone said:


> I don't even think I understand what is going on anymore.



Neither do I.

Either way, with the recent feat from Zaraki and the increase in speed from the Ichigo calc, Aizen should be able to take anyone and anything below the Juubi Jinchuriki and So6P-empowered Naruto and Sasuke.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 8, 2014)

Under juubi jinchuriki's? So you think he could beat the juubi in V3? No sir.

It's more like he should beat anything under BM naruto/SM hashirama/Madara with kyuubi level.


----------



## Ashi (Jun 8, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Under juubi jinchuriki's? So you think he could beat the juubi in V3? No sir.
> 
> It's more like he should beat anything under BM naruto/SM hashirama/Madara with kyuubi level.



Soooooo Nagato?


----------



## Vicotex (Jun 8, 2014)

Wut? Bleach got an upgrade in speed?


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jun 8, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> Wut? Bleach got an upgrade in speed?



Yep.  The Royal Realm to Seireitei speed calc went through.


----------



## Chad (Jun 8, 2014)

> RR to Seireitei speed feat was put through and accepted





Says who?


----------



## Linkofone (Jun 8, 2014)

That is a good question.There should be like a consensus or something.


----------



## Chad (Jun 8, 2014)

I believe the consensus was that it's impossible to place a number on the feat.


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## Linkofone (Jun 8, 2014)

Then throw it into the inconclusive pile.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 8, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Soooooo Nagato?



Yeah monster aizen can run over nagato(regen allows him to hang on after mugetsu, fragor spam preta path has only show to be able to eat FRS at max) unless i forgot something.


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> I believe the consensus was that it's impossible to place a number on the feat.



It wasn't.


----------



## Chad (Jun 8, 2014)

It certainly was not accepted.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 8, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Yeah monster aizen can run over nagato(regen allows him to hang on after mugetsu, fragor spam preta path has only show to be able to eat FRS at max) unless i forgot something.


Monster Aizen actually shits on Nagato. He has casual island level + for both dc and dura,an pretty decent regeneration and mindfuck,  Nagato only bet is hax and superior speed.


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> It certainly was not accepted.



It's not widely accepted, yet.

Sooner or later it will be, given that nobody has been able to debunk it.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 8, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> It's not widely accepted, yet.
> 
> Sooner or later it will be, given that nobody has been able to debunk it.


Discussion thread?


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## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Discussion thread?



There isn't really anything left to discuss.  If someone thinks they can provide a  good reason for why the feat isn't legit then they should go ahead, but until then the feat stands.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 8, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Monster Aizen actually shits on Nagato. He has casual island level + for both dc and dura,an pretty decent regeneration and mindfuck,  Nagato only bet is hax and superior speed.



So what are you telling me...i said he get ran over...ya know left looking like roadkill. Should i put a image too?


*Spoiler*: __ 



How about no go look up roadkill on google and then click images fucker...nah my whole post was a joke you cool man.


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## Takahashi (Jun 8, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> but until then the feat stands.



Using Mach 14 as the base or Mach 29?  I seem to recall that people took issue with the latter.


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## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

Probably safest to stick with mach 14 as a base for now.

It would be best to get some more opinions on the idea of using two separate multipliers on the same calc before considering mach 29.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 8, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Probably safest to stick with mach 14 as a base for now.
> 
> It would be best to get some more opinions on the idea of using two separate multipliers on the same calc before considering mach 29.


Is this a canon multiplier or just a statement? If the latter where it tooks part?


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## Chad (Jun 8, 2014)

It's a statement. A pretty bad statement if I must say.

If it takes a week to reach SS from RR using mach 29, then the distance from SS to RR is 5963328 km long.


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## Akatora (Jun 8, 2014)

Well basing a distance upon a calc of an area size certainly is better than basing it around speed calcs imo.
Is the calc based on a single panel or several panels who all seem to suggest the same size area?(makes far more creditable data if several cases support it)




So where's this calc of the RR drop people talk about?





Astral said:


> It's a statement. A pretty bad statement if I must say.
> 
> If it takes a week to reach SS from RR using mach 29, then the distance from SS to RR is 5963328 km long.



THen what if basic gravity and air resistance were used?

~200 km/h * 24*7 = 33 600 km


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## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> It's a statement. A pretty bad statement if I must say.


It's not though.  Ichigo arrived in the time he said he would.



> If it takes a week to reach SS from RR using mach 29, then the distance from SS to RR is 5963328 km long.


And this is relevant how?


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## Takahashi (Jun 8, 2014)

Akatora said:


> So where's this calc of the RR drop


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## Chad (Jun 8, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> It's not though.  Ichigo arrived in the time he said he would.
> 
> 
> And this is relevant how?



The diameter of SS isn't even 700 km. Unless you honestly believe that the distance between SS and RR is 42 times the size of Jupiter.


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## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> The diameter of SS isn't even 700 km. Unless you honestly believe that the distance between SS and RR is 42 times the size of Jupiter.



What the fuck does the diameter of SS, the city, have to do with the dimension it resides in?  And so what if it is that long?  What's the issue?


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## Chad (Jun 8, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> What the fuck does the diameter of SS, the city, have to do with the dimension it resides in?



You didn't answer my question. Do you honestly believe that the distance from the Palace down to the ground of SS is over 5,000,000 km's long? If you do, then you must be trolling.


----------



## Akatora (Jun 8, 2014)

So if Shunpo had been free fall speed Ichigo at least should be moving at 1850 km/h for a prolonged amount of time, that's nice to know.


----------



## Takahashi (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> The diameter of SS isn't even 700 km. Unless you honestly believe that the distance between SS and RR is 42 times the size of Jupiter.



It's possible.  

The nature of the Royal Realm is something that isn't accessible by simply traveling a certain distance.  It requires a key, and yet the structure clearly has no walls or gates,  it's basically Kami's Lookout.  So why need a key?



A ridiculous distance isn't impossible when we're talking about the Soul King's residence, who's basically Bleach's god. 

Kukkaku fired them up in the same cannon she used in the SS arc, and yet they were up in the Royal Realm almost *immediately*.  I can't imagine that Ichigo is slower than it by any stretch of the imagination.  So perhaps the key is a form of teleportation-like access, whereas taking the stairs like the RG-trained Shinigami did is the actual distance.  It would explain why a place with apparently no physical restrictions would be nearly impossible to get into.


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> You didn't answer my question. Do you honestly believe that the distance from the Palace down to the ground of SS is over 5,000,000 km's long? If you do, then you must be trolling.



You must be trolling if you think that there being a very large distance between SS and RR somehow undermines the feat.

I'll ask again, what's the issue?

When in the manga has there been any information that would make such a large distance unreasonable for what is quite literally God's house?


----------



## Regicide (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> If it takes a week to reach SS from RR using mach 29, then the distance from SS to RR is 5963328 km long.


I don't see how this is relevant.

Or if we can even determine distance this way, actually. 


Akatora said:


> THen what if basic gravity and air resistance were used?


He's not freefalling.


----------



## Akatora (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> The diameter of SS isn't even 700 km. .



ehh... that's highly unlikely.

The Seireitei should probably be in the 5-10 km in diameter add to this there's 80 districts in each direction and as far as I recall areas outside of the 80 which see no seireitei activity...
So if we were to assume each district is the size of seireitei and we placed seireitei at 5 km that's 800 km (going by this I'm assuming you're following a calc at your 700 km)

Eitherway, are you certain there's nothing beyond area 80? I'm sad to confess it's not comming to memory if theres areas beyoind 80 or not(eitherway guess your statement was seireitei+rukongai)


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## tkpirate (Jun 8, 2014)

Catalyst75 said:


> Either way, with the recent feat from Zaraki and the increase in speed from the Ichigo calc, Aizen should be able to take anyone and anything below the Juubi Jinchuriki and So6P-empowered Naruto and Sasuke.



i don't think he can still defeat BM or the bijuus.


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## Agent of Chaos (Jun 8, 2014)

Aizen is not touching any of the Bijuu's except Shukaku even with the new upgrade, lmao.


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## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

Agent of Chaos said:


> Aizen is not touching any of the Bijuu's except Shukaku even with the new upgrade, lmao.



Why not Shukaku?  That whole "more tails = more power" was only put forth by Kurama, and and at least two other tailed beasts disagree with him.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 8, 2014)

I slightly agree with more tails equals more chakra only because Kyuubi is > 1-8. Shukaku is well above Aizen though, he's mostly underestimated because his sand clone was beaten in part 1


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## Iwandesu (Jun 8, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Why not Shukaku?  That whole "more tails = more power" was only put forth by Kurama, and and at least two other tailed beasts disagree with him.


Half of kurama and full hachibi were enough to fight on equal terms with the 7 less Tails, though.  
kurama is the only one with a notable gap between them, hachibi is almost equal.  Any of the 7 others did pretty much the same, feat and hype wise. (Actually, Shukaku sand pistol messed up others even more than the others ,more tailed, bijju)


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 8, 2014)

Astral said:


> I believe the consensus was that it's impossible to place a number on the feat.



the consensus is that it's impossible to stick a number on but conclusively MHS.


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> it's impossible to stick a number on


Why's that?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 8, 2014)

the timeframe is too inconclusive to stick a number on imo.

like you can say mach 1XX or 2XX but 143.6 is wrong.

get it?


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't really see the issue with using the times on the clock towers.


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## tkpirate (Jun 9, 2014)

only problem is that would make it calc stacking.


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## Vicotex (Jun 9, 2014)

The shit was already calc stacking


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## Vicotex (Jun 9, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> i don't think he can still defeat BM or the bijuus.


 bm still solo the verse with bb spam


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 9, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> only problem is that would make it calc stacking.



Using Ichigo's 12 hour statement or the times on the clocks as a time frame is no different than using Byakuya's statement.  In order for it to be calc stacking, there needs to be an actual fucking calc to stack on it.  If you're actually pedantic enough to where you consider the idea of using the times on clocks as your time frame to be a "calc" then you're beyond help.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 9, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Using Ichigo's 12 hour statement or the times on the clocks as a time frame is no different than using Byakuya's statement.  In order for it to be calc stacking, there needs to be an actual fucking calc to stack on it.  If you're actually pedantic enough to where you consider the idea of using the times on clocks as your time frame to be a "calc" then you're beyond help.


Well yeah, the statement and multipliers are still stacking. Thus 100+ is even generous considering how easy calcs are disgarded. (Wanting for more is just gonna make more people try to debunk it, like 2.0 frs and mach 24k nardo)


----------



## Dellinger (Jun 9, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Using Ichigo's 12 hour statement or the times on the clocks as a time frame is no different than using Byakuya's statement.  In order for it to be calc stacking, there needs to be an actual fucking calc to stack on it.  If you're actually pedantic enough to where you consider the idea of using the times on clocks as your time frame to be a "calc" then you're beyond help.



But isn't Catalyst using Mach 29 as the basis for the normal Shunpo or whatever that dude said?


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 9, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Well yeah, the statement and multipliers are still stacking. Thus 100+ is even generous considering how easy calcs are disgarded. (Wanting for more is just gonna make more people try to debunk it, like 2.0 frs and mach 24k nardo)



No they aren't, that's the whole reason the result of the Byakuya calc was mach 29 and not mach 14.



White Hawk said:


> But isn't Catalyst using Mach 29 as the basis for the normal Shunpo or whatever that dude said?



Mach 14 vs mach 29 is still not certain.  That's besides the point though, Kirinji only said "shunpo" and Ichigo has been shown to be able to move faster than mach 14 even without using shunpo.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 9, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> No they aren't, that's the whole reason the result of the Byakuya calc was mach 29 and not mach 14.


Shikai is cannon and straight  up multiplier. 
This feat only says that ichigo is mhs due to being several times faster than others as far as I understood. (It has timeframe but has an iffy distance too.)


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 9, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Shikai is cannon


So is this.



> and straight  up multiplier.


Same here.



> This feat is only says that ichigo is mhs due to being several times faster than other.



Just like the Byakuya calc.



> iffy distance


Irrelevant.


----------



## Lurko (Jun 9, 2014)

Poor Bleach finnally gets a calc and people just won't accept it.


----------



## Dellinger (Jun 9, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Mach 14 vs mach 29 is still not certain.  That's besides the point though, Kirinji only said "shunpo" and Ichigo has been shown to be able to move faster than mach 14 even without using shunpo.



So because Ichigo is obviously faster than Mach 14 it isn't calc stacking?


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 9, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> So because Ichigo is obviously faster than Mach 14 it isn't calc stacking?



It's not calc stacking because there isn't a "calc," just a simple multiplier.


----------



## PlotHax (Jun 9, 2014)

So we have finally arrived at a consensus, Bleach is MHS but no specific speed can be used


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 9, 2014)

PlotHax said:


> So we have finally arrived at a consensus, Bleach is MHS but no specific speed can be used


Kind of it. I have no issues with mhs bleach,(jokes apart) but we should still stick with the LE
Which is what, btw?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 9, 2014)

~mach         200


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 9, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> ~mach         200



 can this be scalled to Dangai Ichigo or reiatsu=/= speed ? (Also, this only applies to current ichigo and toe to toe characters, right?)


----------



## Regicide (Jun 9, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> can this be scalled to Dangai Ichigo


What the fuck do you think?


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 9, 2014)

Regicide said:


> What the fuck do you think?


I think nothing cuz I don't read the series at all.
being the reason I've asked in the first place. (Is not like every god tier is the fastest on his own verse)


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 9, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Using Ichigo's 12 hour statement or the times on the clocks as a time frame is no different than using Byakuya's statement.  In order for it to be calc stacking, there needs to be an actual fucking calc to stack on it.  If you're actually pedantic enough to where you consider the idea of using the times on clocks as your time frame to be a "calc" then you're beyond help.



using Ichigo's 12 hour statement is somewhat same as byakuya's statement.not using some broken clocks to calc that multiplier.

also that timeframe could be wrong as well.

obviously using times on clocks isn't ''calc''.but using that time to determine the multipliers is a ''calc''.it's nothing like DBZ multipliers.


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 9, 2014)

> using Ichigo's 12 hour statement is somewhat same as byakuya's statement.


It's exactly the same.



> using that time to determine the multipliers is a ''calc''.


That time _is_ the multiplier you silly.


----------



## Takahashi (Jun 9, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> I think nothing cuz I don't read the series at all.
> being the reason I've asked in the first place. (Is not like every god tier is the fastest on his own verse)



The answer is yes, if you couldn't tell


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 9, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> That time _is_ the multiplier you silly.



how is that multiplier?


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 9, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> how is that multiplier?



Nine hours and fifteen minutes is the time the clocks tell us.

Ichigo left at 8:00 pm

He arrived at 5:15 am.

If you actually say "b-but using the difference between the times is calcing!" I swear to god.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 9, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Nine hours and fifteen minutes is the time the clocks tell us.
> 
> Ichigo left at 8:00 pm
> 
> ...



where is the multipliers in this?also why 5:15 am,not 5:15 pm?


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 9, 2014)

> where is the multipliers in this?



Nine hours and fifteen minutes is the multiplier, because it took Ichigo that amount of time what would have normally taken him a week.



> also why 5:15 am,not 5:15 pm?



Because not 20 chapters ago, it had just become morning.  There has been no indication since then that a large amount of time has passed.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 10, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Nine hours and fifteen minutes is the multiplier, because it took Ichigo that amount of time what would have normally taken him a week.


 wait how is Nine hours can be the multiplier?you're using that Nine hours to determine the multiplier.



> Because not 20 chapters ago, it had just become morning.  There has been no indication since then that a large amount of time has passed.



are there any indication that time hasn't passed?20 chapters could be enough for that.


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 10, 2014)

> wait how is Nine hours can be the multiplier?you're using that Nine hours to determine the multiplier.



I'll try and phrase it better, the fraction nine hours makes up of 168 hours is how much faster Ichigo is.





> are there any indication that time hasn't passed?


That's not how the burden of proof works.



> 20 chapters could be enough for that.


The Hueco Mundo arc has more than a hundred chapters all taking place in the same day.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 10, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> I'll try and phrase it better, the fraction nine hours makes up of 168 hours is how much faster Ichigo is.


yeah,the multiplier is being determined by some iffy timeframes.




> That's not how the burden of proof works.


i think there are some burden of proof is on you as well.

and all you are providing is a argument from belief.

there are two relevant fight that occured in that time,and you're saying almost no time has passed.you have to provide some proof for that.


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 10, 2014)

> i think there are some burden of proof is on you as well.
> 
> and all you are providing is a argument from belief.





me said:


> That's not how the burden of proof works.






> there are two relevant fight that occured in that time,and you're saying almost no time has passed.you have to provide some proof for that.


And that means absolutely fuck all.  Realistically looking at these two fights and the events that transpired in them, you'd be hard-pressed to say that they even they even lasted thirty minutes combined.

....Why am I still doing this..

I'm out of here.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 10, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> And that means absolutely fuck all.  Realistically looking at these two fights and the events that transpired in them, you'd be hard-pressed to say that they even they even lasted thirty minutes combined.
> .



now if i think about it,wasn't there morethan two fights?

anyway can't see any solid proof that it's 5:15 AM.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jun 10, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> now if i think about it,wasn't there morethan two fights?
> 
> anyway can't see any solid proof that it's 5:15 AM.





The positions of the clock hands in this image very closely correspond with a time of 5:15 A.M.  Ichigo left for Soul Society three hours after the invasion began at 5:00 P.M.



Ichigo leaving three hours after the invasion began meant he left the Royal Realm at around 8:00 P.M.  With the clock he crashed into saying 5:15, it means Ichigo was true to his word when he said he'd make the trip in half a day - 9 hours and 15 minutes, to be precise.

Given the time in which Rukia, Renji and Byakuya also arrived in the Seireitei, this feat also applies to their speeds as well after the Royal Realm training.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 10, 2014)

already talked about this stuff,don't want to repeat myself and waste my time anymore.

and we don't even know when rukia and others started their journey for SS from RR and how much time they took.

really the wank is very strong here.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jun 10, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> and we don't even know when rukia and others started their journey for SS from RR and how much time they took.



The events of chapters 545 and 546 both take place on the same day - June 17th - and we know Rukia and Renji arrived after nightfall in the Seireitei from the Royal Realm, and we know that Byakuya arrived during the morning of the second day before Ichigo appeared.  

As a result, it means all of them also made the journey from the Royal Realm to the Seireitei in roughly half a day.


----------



## Takahashi (Jun 10, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> really the wank is very strong here.



You're expecting us to throw on an additional 12 hours of time when nothing indicates that Ichigo took any longer than he said he would 

But whatever, we know how long the war is supposed to last, and Kubo has gone out of his way to show the days clearly passing, so we should have a definitive answer soon enough.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 11, 2014)

Catalyst75 said:


> The events of chapters 545 and 546 both take place on the same day - June 17th - and we know Rukia and Renji arrived after nightfall in the Seireitei from the Royal Realm, and we know that Byakuya arrived during the morning of the second day before Ichigo appeared.
> As a result, it means all of them also made the journey from the Royal Realm to the Seireitei in roughly half a day.



again we don't know when they started their journey.so just stop this.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jun 11, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> again we don't know when they started their journey.so just stop this.



When are you going to stop? This is getting silly.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jun 11, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> When are you going to stop? This is getting silly.



That's what I've been wondering.  He seems to be pretty perturbed about Bleach getting a speed upgrade for some reason.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 11, 2014)

Takahashi said:


> You're expecting us to throw on an additional 12 hours of time when nothing indicates that Ichigo took any longer than he said he would



there have already been some relevant fights that occurred since the morning.if it's really 5:15 AM then it would mean all those fights occurred and almost no time has passed.i would like to see some solid proof for that timeframe.


----------



## Chad (Jun 11, 2014)

Even if it was 1 day the feat would still be MHS, dunno why you're still trying to argue this.

Many HST characters are low MHS and it just happens to be Bleach's time to join the group. It's really not that big of a deal tkpirate, as long as Naruto remains the strongest cancer manga.


----------



## tkpirate (Jun 11, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> When are you going to stop? This is getting silly.



so when did rukia and others started their journey from RR for SS?


----------



## Aphelion (Jun 11, 2014)

> Even if it was 1 day the feat would still be MHS


It's not even worth entertaining the notion.

Since morning we've had three fights that couldn't have lasted more than ten minutes each.  The time on the clock shows that Ichigo arrived in about the time he said he would.  The mental gymnastics one would have to perform to honestly say "nope, 12 more hours have passed, you have to prove that that time didn't pass" would be pretty ridiculous.


----------



## Takahashi (Jun 11, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> there have already been some relevant fights that occurred since the morning.if it's really 5:15 AM then it would mean all those fights occurred and almost no time has passed





TheEndAll said:


> The Hueco Mundo arc has more than a hundred chapters all taking place in the same day.



See above ^
The number of relevant fights really isn't indicative of any significant amount of time.


----------



## LazyWaka (Jun 11, 2014)

Catalyst75 said:


> I sense much fear in them.
> 
> The fear that, one day, the title of "HST's strongest" that they desired for so long will one day be taken away from them, and they fear every step that leads the other series towards that possible reality.
> 
> The recent speed feat has just put Bleach high-tiers above all but the Naruto top tiers.



Wouldn't this only be for bleach top tiers?


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## Regicide (Jun 11, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Wouldn't this only be for bleach top tiers?


Depends on who you define as being top tier, I suppose.


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## Linkofone (Jun 11, 2014)

Still going on huh?


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## Aphelion (Jun 11, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Wouldn't this only be for bleach top tiers?



Hey waka, what's your opinion of using mach 29 as a base ie. using two multipliers on one calc?


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## Iwandesu (Jun 11, 2014)

Catalyst75 said:


> I sense much fear in them.
> 
> The fear that, one day, the title of "HST's strongest" that they desired for so long will one day be taken away from them, and they fear every step that leads the other series towards that possible reality.
> 
> The recent speed feat has just put Bleach high-tiers above all but the Naruto top tiers.


Not, really. Bleach high tiers are still only city level, Raikagenaut owns the ones without hax


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## LazyWaka (Jun 11, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Depends on who you define as being top tier, I suppose.



Well, going by the hype, Current Ichigo should be one of the strongest characters right now (bar the transcendants.)


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## LazyWaka (Jun 11, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Hey waka, what's your opinion of using mach 29 as a base ie. using two multipliers on one calc?



I personally don't give a shit on which value is used.


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## Aphelion (Jun 11, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> I personally don't give a shit on which value is used.



I'll rephrase.

Is using two multipliers dubious?


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## LazyWaka (Jun 11, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Not, really. Bleach high tiers are still only city level, Raikagenaut owns the ones without hax



Kinda proving his point here, aren't ya?


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## LazyWaka (Jun 11, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> I'll rephrase.
> 
> Is using two multipliers dubious?



I don't know. If they can be clearly connected to each other than it wouldn't be to far fetched.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 11, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Kinda proving his point here, aren't ya?


I only put on my top tier list characters with small country-country + level. 
High Tiers would be sm nardo to Raikagenaut and prime Nagato as the borderlines. 
I wouldn't put anyone below Kakuzu as a mid tier btw. 
My low tier mix up with jonin fooders.


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## LazyWaka (Jun 11, 2014)

Not at all what I meant.


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## Catalyst75 (Jun 11, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Wouldn't this only be for bleach top tiers?



I consider top-tier Bleach to be around Hogyoku Aizen and Dangai Ichigo level.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 11, 2014)

Then who do you consider the god tiers


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## Catalyst75 (Jun 11, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Then who do you consider the god tiers



I wasn't aware there was an official "God tier" to be considered.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 11, 2014)

the problem with using mach 29 doesn't lie in the using two multipliers thing, because that's bullshit and we've used more than one multiplier at a time before.

The problem lies in being unable to prove ichigo has to be mach 29 before the multiplier, which as far as I'm aware you cannot prove to the standards you can for Mach 14.


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## Aphelion (Jun 11, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> The problem lies in being unable to prove ichigo has to be mach 29 before the multiplier, which as far as I'm aware you cannot prove to the standards you can for Mach 14.



A decent case could be made.  

I think it's fair to say that the one week time-frame given by Kirinji was based on how quick he _thought_ Ichigo was at time.  It wouldn't make sense to tell Ichigo a time based on a speed he's obviously going to be going much faster than, given the circumstances.  Not to mention pre training Ichigo has already been shown to be able to react to his speed, which was fast enough to blitz Soi Fon, so Kirinji assuming a speed for Ichigo that was lower than mach 29 wouldn't make any sense.


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## Source (Jun 12, 2014)

Can someone explain how the new calc applies to other people who flew back from their training with the RG?


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## Catalyst75 (Jun 12, 2014)

Source said:


> Can someone explain how the new calc applies to other people who flew back from their training with the RG?



All the Royal Realm trainees left for the Seireitei on the same day but at different times.  Rukia and Renji arrived at the Seireitei by the time night fell after they left for the Seireitei, and Byakuya arrived in the Seireitei shortly before Ichigo in the morning of the second day.


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## LazyWaka (Jun 12, 2014)

From what I recall we didn't didn't know when Rukia or Renji left. And the assumption that they left after the attack started would have given us a time frame smaller than Ichigos, which wouldn't make sense seeing as he's the one who's suppose to be faster than them.


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