# Hebi Sasuke vs. Gaara



## Nikushimi (Jul 5, 2014)

*Location:* Chuunin Exams Finals
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-This is War Arc (i.e., post-Shukaku-extraction) Gaara.
-Manda is alive.
-Aoda is restricted (because that's not a summon Sasuke used until the War Arc).
-The hawk summon is restricted (because it's also something Sasuke didn't use until later).
-Assume that Konoha is completely evacuated, so neither Sasuke nor Gaara will worry about civilian casualties or interference.
-Orochimaru will not emerge from Sasuke if he is defeated.

*Scenario 2:* Same conditions, but the fight takes place where Oonoki and Gaara and the other allied forces fought Kabuto's four Edo Kage.

*Scenario 3:* Same conditions as S2, but with the added stipulation that the weather will take an unexpected turn for the worse 5 minutes into the fight, a thunderstorm will brew, and Kirin will automatically become usable. Neither Gaara nor Sasuke know the weather will change when they begin fighting, though.


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2014)

War-Arc Gaara owns Hebi-Sasuke with low diff. His Sand was blocking Susano'o strikes, Joki Boi Explosions, etc.. Sasuke literally has nothing that can break through the Gourd-Sand short of Kirin. Meanwhile Gaara's sand having kept up with Susano'o speed attacks and attacks from MS Sasuke, will quickly overwhelm Sasuke with it's speed alone. This is even worse if Gaara takes flight or grinds sand, because he'd just steam roll him with his AOE. Sasuke is never lasting until Kirin, but even if he did, the telegraphed way he utilizes it gives Gaara more than enough time to block it with sand he's ground out by then.

See no way Hebi-Sasuke can win short of being extremely lucky.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2014)

Sasuke destroys all scenarios. He is fast and mobile enough to evade everything Gaara throws @ him and his raiton will go through Gaara's defenses like butter. Gaara'll probably try to hide inside a sand dome and get impaled with a chidori lance which he has no knowledge of.

Sasuke low - mid difficulty.

Probably same goes for all scenarios. Kirin means instant defeat, but I believe 5 minutes is enough for sasuke to defeat Gaara, so not sure if it'll come into play.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 5, 2014)

Sasuke is a horrible match up for Gaara. His Raiton variants will slice though Gaara's attempts, both offensively and defensively.  He's more than fast enough to bypass Gaara's defence and it will eventually lead to his death. 

Sasuke summons Manda to give him some levitation and shoots some Katons into the air. Kirin ends it.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke destroys all scenarios. He is fast and mobile enough to evade everything Gaara throws @ him and his raiton will go through Gaara's defenses like butter. Gaara'll probably try to hide inside a sand dome and get impaled with a chidori lance which he has no knowledge of.
> 
> Sasuke low - mid difficulty.
> 
> Probably same goes for all scenarios. Kirin means instant defeat, but I believe 5 minutes is enough for sasuke to defeat Gaara, so not sure if it'll come into play.



Are you serious? Hebi Sasuke defeating Current Gaara nooo. Feats put Gaara above him and so does Portrayal.


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## Ashi (Jul 5, 2014)

Gaara crushes pretty easily

Sasuke can't break through his defenses and has the flight advantage

Sasuke's only hope is lolkirin


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 5, 2014)

War Arc Gaara destroys hebi Sasuke with relative ease


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 5, 2014)

Gaara seals him up in a pyramid.


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2014)

Why do people think Raiton will work. Shukaku is the Jiton and Fuuton demon, so Sand control is one of those 2 (probably Jiton); not Doton.


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Why do people think Raiton will work. Shukaku is the Jiton and Fuuton demon, so Sand control is one of those 2 (probably Jiton); not Doton.



If I had to guess it would be because Chidori was able to get through Gaara's sand defense during both the Chunin exam final round as well as during the forest where Gaara was partially transformed.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 5, 2014)

Sasuke can just pierce Gaara's sand with Chidori, like he did back during the Chuunin Exams (before he could even activate the Juin's Stage Two).

No one seems to have even bothered to mention how Gaara is supposed to deal with Manda.

And it's funny how those same people act as if Gaara can attack Sasuke so casually and not have to worry about Genjutsu.

Nevermind the fact that Gaara has like zero ability to damage let alone kill Hebi Sasuke when he is in Stage Two.


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## Ashi (Jul 5, 2014)

Bonly said:


> If I had to guess it would be because Chidori was able to get through Gaara's sand defense during both the Chunin exam final round as well as during the forest where Gaara was partially transformed.



So we're gonna ignore the fact it blocked Amaterasu and Madara's Susanoo?


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke can just pierce Gaara's sand with Chidori, like he did back during the Chuunin Exams (before he could even activate the Juin's Stage Two).
> 
> No one seems to have even bothered to mention how Gaara is supposed to deal with Manda.
> 
> ...



This battle isn't the Chuunin exams. That logic isn't valid anymore seeing as how that was part 1. Plus Gaara was still owning Sasuke.
Sand Tsunami plus Massive Sand Burial GG


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So we're gonna ignore the fact it blocked Amaterasu and Madara's Susanoo?



You can ignore it, pay attention to it, take it out on a date and fuck it afterwords for all I care. A block of Enton(which is what Gaara blocked) and a Susanoo sword does not have the same cutting properties of what Raiton can do. Just because his sand managed to block those doesn't mean it can outright stop a piercing Raiton attack. Whether you think a Raiton can get through it or not is up to you


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## Nikushimi (Jul 5, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So we're gonna ignore the fact it blocked Amaterasu and Madara's Susanoo?



Amaterasu doesn't cut like Raiton.

While Susano'o boasts more brute strength, it doesn't have the same sharpness or concentration.

Gaara's sand only blocked clone Susano'o, anyway... The real Madara's Susano'o tore right through in one blow.



Kazekage94 said:


> This battle isn't the Chuunin exams. That logic isn't valid anymore seeing as how that was part 1. Plus Gaara was still owning Sasuke.



It's perfectly valid; Sasuke has gotten stronger since then, just like Gaara, and they improved almost in perfect proportion to one another (until Sasuke awakened the MS and started jumping up several tiers).

Whereas Sasuke and Gaara were very close with only the Juin's first stage and two-tomoe Sharingan, Hebi Sasuke can use Stage Two and has three-tomoe Sharingan. He's got a definite advantage over Gaara.



> Sand Tsunami plus Massive Sand Burial GG



Does virtually nothing to Stage Two Sasuke; he survived a direct hit with C2.


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## Krippy (Jul 5, 2014)

Could go either way, honestly. 



TensaXZangetsu said:


> So we're gonna ignore the fact it blocked Amaterasu and Madara's Susanoo?



It never blocked Amaterasu. It blocked Kagutsuchi which is as fast as FRS.


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## Ersa (Jul 5, 2014)

Sasuke wins mid difficulty.

The speed advantage is enormous, not only does Sasuke possess vastly better speed feats but he has a 4.5 in speed further amped by Cursed Seal compared to Gaara's piss poor 3 in speed. With flight this means he can outrun Gaara's sand all day long. Senjutsu amped Chidori variants are more then enough to slice through Gaara's weaker defenses but Sasuke's best option here is to summon Manda, have him pressure Gaara, enter CS2 then prep Kirin.

And considering Gaara's best defense couldn't even tank the weakest variant of Yasaka Magatama, Kirin rips straight through it and kills the nerd.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke can just pierce Gaara's sand with Chidori, like he did back during the Chuunin Exams (before he could even activate the Juin's Stage Two).
> 
> No one seems to have even bothered to mention how Gaara is supposed to deal with Manda.
> 
> ...




Sasuke gets buried 200 meters below. Sasuke isn't as durable as Susanoo in which Gaara's sand didn't wither against. Referring to the Susanoo swords. Oh or Gaara could crush Sasuke's brain 

Gaara handled himself well against MS Sasuke who is a tier or 2 above Hebi Sasukes. Gaara can manipulate large masses of Sand fairly quickly. More Sand > Lightning. I'd argue it couldn't get through Gaara's defenses since he dealt with Enton.


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## Ersa (Jul 5, 2014)

Gaara's strongest defense couldn't stand up to unbeaded Yasaka Magatama (the weakest variant). I'd give it more credit if it tanked the chain version but it's a stupidly overrated technique.

How does it remotely stand a chance against Kirin or well I'd argue Senjutsu Chidori could rip through it considering Part I Sasuke's variant did this already. And Sasuke's Chidori without senjutsu enhancements already did Gaara's defense back in Part I.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 5, 2014)

I think Hebi Sauce is faster than Joki Boy, which was capable of out-speeding Gaara's sand.

His chidori additionally has on panel feats of penetrating Gaara's sand defenses. 

I think Sasuke can potentially win seeing as how he has the speed to get in close and the techniques necessary to penetrate Gaara's sand but I do feel there's a portrayal difference in Gaara's favor. 

Gaara is current while in contrast hebi sasuke existed a long time ago but I don't know if its enough to summarily write it off as Gaara's victory because of that. If the battle lasts long enough for kirin to be prepped sauce wins every time imo.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Here is a similar thread people's opinions may have changed (doubt it) but if it doesn't persist.


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## ARGUS (Jul 6, 2014)

Gaara wins,,, upon war arc  he surpassed hebi sasuke


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## Nikushimi (Jul 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Sasuke gets buried 200 meters below.



That didn't stop Kimimaro, and Hebi Sasuke is physically stronger than Kimimaro (and has increased reaction time, thanks to the Sharingan, which means pinning him down in the firs tplace will be harder).



> Sasuke isn't as durable as Susanoo in which Gaara's sand didn't wither against. Referring to the Susanoo swords.



Gaara also couldn't damage Susano'o. Nor can he really do much of anything to someone with Sage durability and a boosted healing factor like Orochimaru's.



> Oh or Gaara could crush Sasuke's brain



Gaara can't do shit to Sasuke because his best offensive feats involve pulping regular people, which Sasuke is not.



> Gaara handled himself well against MS Sasuke who is a tier or 2 above Hebi Sasukes.



Gaara didn't even face a worn-down Sasuke for more than a minute, and he did it with backup. Sasuke even pulled a retreat instead of attempting to fight Gaara or anyone else there.



> Gaara can manipulate large masses of Sand fairly quickly. More Sand > Lightning. I'd argue it couldn't get through Gaara's defenses since he dealt with Enton.



The more sand Gaara manipulates, the more chakra he burns through and the faster he gets tired. Focusing on defense takes away from his offense, and he's still got to have chakra left over for things like his sand armor and the floating sand barge that require continuous chakra consumption. If he tries to block something like Kirin (which costs Sasuke absolutely no chakra, btw), it's going to take everything out of him just like blocking C3 did.


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## Veracity (Jul 6, 2014)

Gaara dicks on this version of Sasuke.
He shreds sand through his skin and negates his movements. Then he sand coffins his ass.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Are you serious? Hebi Sasuke defeating Current Gaara nooo. Feats put Gaara above him and so does Portrayal.



Hebi Sasuke >> Gaara by feats and portrayal.

Gaara got raped by Deidara.
Sasuke owned Deidara without using his trump card, while holding back his killing intent.



Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke can just pierce Gaara's sand with Chidori, like he did back during the Chuunin Exams (before he could even activate the Juin's Stage Two).
> 
> No one seems to have even bothered to mention how Gaara is supposed to deal with Manda.
> 
> ...



Its funny how those who say "gaara wins relatively easiy" have no way of justifying what they said.



TensaXZangetsu said:


> So we're gonna ignore the fact it blocked Amaterasu and Madara's Susanoo?



So we are gonna ignore the fact that magatama went through his strongest defense like hot knife through butter ?


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hebi Sasuke >> Gaara by feats and portrayal.
> 
> Gaara got raped by Deidara.
> Sasuke owned Deidara without using his trump card, while holding back his killing intent.
> ...



Feats Gaara:

Blocked Madara's strikes 
2 Kage in One Day
Blocked Enton(Can possibly defend against Amaterasu)
Pulled Madara out of Susanoo

Hebi Sasuke:
Beat Deidara(who was blitzed by Said) not to mention it was plot
Killed Itachi who was holding back
Sasuke would have died too and throughout the fight Sasuke did have killing intentions when he thrusted chidori into Deidara's clone

Portrayal for Gaara
Known as the Golden Egg
2 Kages in One Day
Commander of a Division

Portayal for Hebi Sasuke
Nothing. Oh wait Plot

Hebi Sasuke doesn't possess YM


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 6, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I think Hebi Sauce is faster than Joki Boy, which was capable of out-speeding Gaara's sand.
> 
> His chidori additionally has on panel feats of penetrating Gaara's sand defenses.
> 
> ...



Joki Boy was faster than Gaara's desert Sand not his Gourd Sand

Chidori cut Gaara's sand in part 1. In which Gaara managed to survive.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> That didn't stop Kimimaro, and Hebi Sasuke is physically stronger than Kimimaro (and has increased reaction time, thanks to the Sharingan, which means pinning him down in the firs tplace will be harder).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sand manipulation is never a problem for Garra. He has massive chakra reserves. His Sand Cloud doesn't take up much chakra either. The only thing that did was his SkySand Defensive Wall. Not to mention the CS takes up chakra as well. Gaara fought 2 kage in one setting I think he has more than enough chakra to deal with a low level opponent.

Gaara's sand has gotten stronger it should be able to kill CS2. If not Sand Pyramid seal GG. 
Kimimaro had bone forest I'm which he meddled in with that's how he managed to survive. Sasuke doesn't have that. 
Sash or can't use Kirin unless he is far away from Gaara of not Sasuke could hurt himself.


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## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2014)

I am pretty sure that if Gaara puts the same pressure of sand he used to guard against C3, he is crushing Sasuke with minimal effort. I dare to say that with half of that pressure he used to create the shield is enough to crush Sasuke's body once he caughts it.

The only way i see Sasuke winning is pressuring Gaara thanks to the incredibly short distance made for him to win, but otherwise, this Gaara kills him. He is not tanking his sand, and Gaara only needs to caught one feet/leg and crush it to make the battle to his favor as Sasuke will be or flying or running via little jumps with one feet.


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## genii96 (Jul 6, 2014)

Gaara shits on him. Only arguments for sasuke are from part 1 LOL.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Feats Gaara:
> 
> Blocked Madara's strikes
> 2 Kage in One Day
> ...



Blocking enton doesn't mean anything, Hebi Sasuke doesn't have it.

Gaara's sand seems to be better equipped to deal with heat/explosive type attacks, considering it was blocking enton and Joki boi but wasn't able to block Magatama and chidori. So piercing type attacks are shown to be very effective against it.
Sasuke goes in dry.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Blocking enton doesn't mean anything, Hebi Sasuke doesn't have it.
> 
> Gaara's sand seems to be better equipped to deal with heat/explosive type attacks, considering it was blocking enton and Joki boi but wasn't able to block Magatama and chidori. So piercing type attacks are shown to be very effective against it.
> Sasuke goes in dry.



They are called feats. Gaara dealt with a more powerful Sasuke that alone puts him above Hebi Sasuke.

Chidori was part 1. 

Sasuke gets his ass kicked.


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## Cognitios (Jul 6, 2014)

Sasuke takes this do to location / distance. 
His speed is just enough that he'd be able to take gaara on in CQC and strike a vital blow.


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## SSMG (Jul 6, 2014)

Cant sasuke render gaaras sand completeley useless due to his raiton? or since gaara uses magnet release that it doesnt have to disadvantages doton has?


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## SSMG (Jul 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Blocking enton doesn't mean anything, Hebi Sasuke doesn't have it.
> 
> Gaara's sand seems to be better equipped to deal with heat/explosive type attacks, considering it was blocking enton and Joki boi but wasn't able to block Magatama and chidori. So piercing type attacks are shown to be very effective against it.
> Sasuke goes in dry.



Gaaras sand in part two has blocked V2 Eis leg drop.. so since he can react and block this with his sand he should be able to block any peircing attacks hebi sasuke throws at him.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> That didn't stop Kimimaro, and Hebi Sasuke is physically stronger than Kimimaro (and has increased reaction time, thanks to the Sharingan, which means pinning him down in the firs tplace will be harder).


Your fucking ignorant. Kimimaro is way more durable(which is what that was all about) and clawed his way out. Sasuke's best chance is to use Nagashi and he is still under 200meters of Earth. and by the time he gets out Gaara will rain sand down upon him(Gaara can sense through his sand) and Sasuke would be tired the fuck out. Wasn't Hebi Sasuke only able to use Chidori variants 6times in one day(i remember in part 1 it was 3-4, so I really have no idea) so for him to counter every bit of sand offense and defense with sand. Kimimaro also showed to be more versatile and able to attack at a long range while evading like a motherfucking boss.





> Gaara also couldn't damage Susano'o. Nor can he really do much of anything to someone with Sage durability and a boosted healing factor like Orochimaru's.


Yet he was able to circumvent its defense. Orochimaru's healing factor comes with a price, and he is nowhere near as durable as Kimimaro which he only survived Gaara's onslaught thanks to his healing factor and his extremely strong bones which pierced the sand without elementally chakra being flowed through it.





> Gaara can't do shit to Sasuke because his best offensive feats involve pulping regular people, which Sasuke is not.


Pulping regular people? Are you fucking serious. Mizukage, his father, and plenty of more throughout just the war arc. 





> Gaara didn't even face a worn-down Sasuke for more than a minute, and he did it with backup. Sasuke even pulled a retreat instead of attempting to fight Gaara or anyone else there.


Yea as soon as Gaara showed up and showed that he can defend against Sasuke's attacks Sasuke was forced to retreat.





> The more sand Gaara manipulates, the more chakra he burns through and the faster he gets tired. Focusing on defense takes away from his offense, and he's still got to have chakra left over for things like his sand armor and the floating sand barge that require continuous chakra consumption. If he tries to block something like Kirin (which costs Sasuke absolutely no chakra, btw), it's going to take everything out of him just like blocking C3 did.


Thats just speculation. Gaara has clearly shown that he has a massive chakra pool without the 1 tail.


Gaara wrecks Sasuke's shit like a bear fight a baby.

If it wasn't full knowledge it could go either way with Gaara winning more than not, but with full knowledge Gaara will keep his distance and attack from long range.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> They are called feats. Gaara dealt with a more powerful Sasuke that alone puts him above Hebi Sasuke.


When did he deal with "a stronger Sasuke ?"



> Chidori was part 1.


Doesn't mean anything. 



> Sasuke gets his ass kicked.



He rapes Gaara. He is stronger and a bad match up.



SSMG said:


> Gaaras sand in part two has blocked V2 Eis leg drop..
> 
> so since he can react and block this with his sand he should be able to block any peircing attacks hebi sasuke throws at him.



We don't know how powerful that attack is. Leg drop wasn't a piercing attack.

Also it was an interception feat so it doesn't count.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did he deal with "a stronger Sasuke ?"
> 
> 
> Doesn't mean anything.
> ...



MS > Hebi Sasuke
Trolling. Gaara is clearly stronger are you mad?
And it means everything


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> MS > Hebi Sasuke


I know but what does it have anything to do with this thread ?
Besides, as far as the match up goes, Hebi has significant advantages over MS Sasuke like CS movement speed and mobility(wings).



> Trolling. Gaara is clearly stronger are you mad?


Clearly stronger than who ?
Sasuke was depicted alot stronger than Gaara through out part 2.



> And it means everything



Explain ?


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## IchLiebe (Jul 6, 2014)

So Grimmjow you accept that Gaara intercepted a v2 A's speed....


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 6, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Sasuke takes this do to location / distance.
> His speed is just enough that he'd be able to take gaara on in CQC and strike a vital blow.


Gaara could block A's strikes and Amaterasu and Enton, Sasuke can't blitz him period.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know but what does it have anything to do with this thr ?
> Besides, as far as the match up goes, Hebi has significant advantages over MS Sasuke like CS movement speed and mobility(wings).
> 
> 
> ...



1. That was for portrayal in which you believe that Hebi Sasuke is still above Current Gaara which is a ludicrous belief.

2. He's stronger than Hebi Sasuke
Gaara had the Shukaku in Part 2. Even that Gaara would have owned Hebi Sasuke. Not to mention Gaara didn't even use the Shukaku back then because of his village. (But that's beside the point)

Chidori variants aren't enough to bypass his defense


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Gaara could block A's strikes and Amaterasu and Enton, Sasuke can't blitz him period.



Using them interception feats as reaction feats


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> So Grimmjow you accept that Gaara intercepted a v2 A's speed....



Nice reading comprehension.



Kazekage94 said:


> 1. That was for portrayal in which you believe that Hebi Sasuke is still above Current Gaara which is a ludicrous belief.


Yes both MS and Hebi Sasuke were portrayed above Gaara.



> 2. He's stronger than Hebi Sasuke
> Gaara had the Shukaku in Part 2. Even that Gaara would have owned Hebi Sasuke. Not to mention Gaara didn't even use the Shukaku back then because of his village. (But that's beside the point)


Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. Just so you know, you have to provide evidence.



> Chidori variants aren't enough to bypass his defense


Evidence ?


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nice reading comprehension.
> 
> 
> Yes both MS and Hebi Sasuke were portrayed above Gaara.
> ...



You repeat the same thing over and over as well. I've provided evidence already by who Gaara has beaten as opposed to Hebi Sasuke.

There is already evidence. Look in the past comments. 
You haven't provided me anything. You are using ABC logic. Apprently Gaara(Part 2) < Deidara < Hebi Sasuke so in your case it means Hebi Sasuke > Gaara(Part 2 and 3). You're ignorant. Only a fanboy would say this or someone who hates Gaara. Shukaku Gaara rapes Sasuke end of story. Deidara would have lost that fight. Sasuke would have lost that fight. OK that's enough.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 7, 2014)

So you admit that Gaara's sand will easily intercept anything Sasuke throws at Gaara since Sasuke is much much slower than A.


Good day Grimmjow


@Kazekage- you have a better chance making a rock believe that its cotton candy then to get Grimmjow to provide and adequate argument. He is heavily biased for people with Sharingan(other than Kakashi) and his arguments are fucking ridiculous at best.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 7, 2014)

This has to be a bait thread

No one could possibly think hebi sasuke is on par or even close in power to war arc gaara.Sasuke gets murder stomped with ease


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> You repeat the same thing over and over as well. I've provided evidence already by who Gaara has beaten as opposed to Hebi Sasuke.


What did I repeat ? I am just asking  you to back up what you said, and you are responding by saying the same thing over and over again.



> There is already evidence. Look in the past comments.


You haven't provided any evidence.



> You haven't provided me anything. You are using ABC logic. Apprently Gaara(Part 2) < Deidara < Hebi Sasuke so in your case it means Hebi Sasuke > Gaara(Part 2 and 3). You're ignorant.


That isn't my only argument but it actually works here perfectly fine, considering war arc Gaara hasn't shown much improvement over beginning of part 2 Gaara. On the contrary, Gaara with Shukaku's power has shown power magnitudes over war arc Gaara.



> Only a fanboy would say this or someone who hates Gaara. Shukaku Gaara rapes Sasuke end of story. Deidara would have lost that fight. Sasuke would have lost that fight. OK that's enough.


Shukaku lost to part 1 Naruto & Gamabunta.
Hebi Sasuke murderstomps him.



IchLiebe said:


> So you admit that Gaara's sand will easily intercept anything Sasuke throws at Gaara since Sasuke is much much slower than A.


What ? No. What kind of a retard would say anyhing like that anyway ? 



> Good day Grimmjow


Good day to you sir !



> @Kazekage- you have a better chance making a rock believe that its cotton candy then to get Grimmjow to provide and adequate argument. He is heavily biased for people with Sharingan(other than Kakashi) and his arguments are fucking ridiculous at best.



Credible judgement right here, especially coming from the most unbiased person on BD. :ignoramus


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 7, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> This has to be a bait thread
> 
> No one could possibly think hebi sasuke is on par or even close in power to war arc gaara.Sasuke gets murder stomped with ease



People are really delusional


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> So you admit that Gaara's sand will easily intercept anything Sasuke throws at Gaara since Sasuke is much much slower than A.
> 
> 
> Good day Grimmjow
> ...



Yes you're right. He is trolling I'm done here. 
Whoever believes Hebi Sasuke wins this clearly needs analyzed.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 7, 2014)

Intercepting V2 Ay isn't impressive at all. Ay was in free fall, and all falling objects have a speed of -9.81 m/s^2. which is the gravitational pull. Ay was nowhere near full throttle.


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## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> So you admit that Gaara's sand will easily intercept anything Sasuke throws at Gaara since Sasuke is much much slower than A.


Ichliebe I agree whole heartedly. If Hebi Sasuke and Ei are fighting, and this match's gaara uses sand against Sasuke he should be able to connect little problem.


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## SharinganKisame (Jul 7, 2014)

lol at all the gaara haters, hebi sasuke gets fodderized by war arc Gaara this isn't even funny. Gaara flies then destroys him with massive amount of sand low diff. lol at chidori doing anything against gaaras attacks. sure chidori is a strong piercing attack but it won't harm a flying gaara. chidori and chidori nagashi won't protect sasuke against sand burial or sand pyramid or any fucking jutsus gaara can do. 

beggining of part 2 gaara would be a better matchup or current vs ms sasuke


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## IchLiebe (Jul 7, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Yes you're right. He is trolling I'm done here.
> Whoever believes Hebi Sasuke wins this clearly needs analyzed.



Yes and he just lashes out and attacks people randomly if they even try to prove him wrong.


He admitted that Gaara's sand can intercept A, so I wouldn't see no reason why could couldn't intercept a chidori charge from Sasuke...given FULL KNOWLEDGE.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Yes you're right. He is trolling I'm done here.
> Whoever believes Hebi Sasuke wins this clearly needs analyzed.



See, its pretty easy to concede when you have 0 argument.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> See, its pretty easy to concede when you have 0 argument.



Why are you still talking? Read what everyone else said. You're delusional.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 7, 2014)

You don't understand his tactic.

He is in argument with you and thus he will blatantly ignore what most people say that tears his argument apart 7 different ways. 

Gaara is on a whole other level, but because Sasuke has raiton techniques that means he is automatically immune to all of Gaara's attack and can bypass all of his defenses...which is a terrible argument due to Gaara's feats and capabilities that far exceed anything Hebi Sasuke accomplished(although Kirin is beast).

Gaara is to powerful...also remember he has sand clones that were able to trick an experienced kazekage and fought people that themselves are on a whole other level than Hebi Sasuke...Although I do agree he has more ability than MS Sasuke(which for some reason never showed Kirin again or even attempt to set it and since it doesn't cost chakra that leads me to believe that its related to the curse marks' senjutsu) Hebi Sasuke does fare better against Gaara than MS Sasuke.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> You don't understand his tactic.
> 
> He is in argument with you and thus he will blatantly ignore what most people say that tears his argument apart 7 different ways.
> 
> ...



Agreed! Thanks


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Why are you still talking? Read what everyone else said. You're delusional.



Why are you so mad ? Its just a thread in BD, losing ain't such a big deal.



IchLiebe said:


> You don't understand his tactic.
> 
> He is in argument with you and thus he will blatantly ignore what most people say that tears his argument apart 7 different ways.
> 
> ...



Saying "Gaara is on a whole other level" is not an argument. it is a statement(a completely baseless one at that), learn the difference.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 8, 2014)

And your argument is FUCKING PATHETIC. Your a terrible debater and you have yet to even make a good argument.


And Im not just saying Gaara is on a whole other level, thats just what you chose to read. We all know that Gaara is going to shitstomp Sasuke, but you can't get Sasuke's dick out your mouth to come back with a decent argument(although tell you the truth I can't remember the last time you gave a good argument in any fucking thread) Your a terrible debater and you know that Gaara would easily win but you keep holding to that Uchiha's are some unstoppable monster when in fact...that is Gaara.


Gaara shown that he can keep up with faster characters multiple times, is very very versatile and Sasuke's chidori won't even get close to Gaara. If Gaara was able to catch Kimmi, of whom imo showed better reflexes and agility than Sasuke ever has. 

They have fought before and nothing has really changed for Sasuke other than more chakra and curse seal, but Gaara has become the kazekage, leader of the entire Allied forces and fought top tiers.


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## Rain (Jul 8, 2014)

Grimmjow ended the thread on the first page.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 8, 2014)

And that just shows your delusions


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## Rain (Jul 8, 2014)

Go fuck something.


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## Ersa (Jul 8, 2014)

How does Kirin not end Gaara if his best defense couldn't even survive the weakest variant of Yasaka Magatama (the small beaded version)? Hell, senjutsu-Chidori could probably do it considering Sasuke broke his defense in Part I without senjutsu empowering his Chidori. And CS1 Sasuke is much faster then Jokie Boy who was already giving Gaara's sand trouble with it's speed.

It's a tough fight but Sasuke has ample firepower to break Gaara's defense.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jul 8, 2014)

Sauce doesn't need Senjutsu, his speed alone can fuck up Gaara in 5m. 

Lol at Sand durability, last time I checked his strongest mommy sand barely tank Joki Boy, not the weakest Yasaka Magatama, let alone Kirin.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And your argument is FUCKING PATHETIC.


At least I have an argument.
You may attempt to start with that.



> a terrible debater and you have yet to even make a good argument.


My argument is pretty good actually. The thing is, I haven't seen a single pro Gaara argument in this thread on how he counters Sasuke's techniques. The only argument for Gaara's side has been "He shitstomps Sasuke" "War arc Gaara is on a whole other level" etc, which are completely fanmade unsubstantiated horseshit.



> And Im not just saying Gaara is on a whole other level, thats just what you chose to read. We all know that Gaara is going to shitstomp Sasuke, but you can't get Sasuke's dick out your mouth to come back with a decent argument(although tell you the truth I can't remember the last time you gave a good argument in any fucking thread) Your a terrible debater and you know that Gaara would easily win but you keep holding to that Uchiha's are some unstoppable monster when in fact...that is Gaara.


You have yet to provide an argument for how Gaara "shitstomps" Sasuke. All you've done up until now is to act like complete Gaara fanboy and resort to personal insults, which clearly show you have no argument to begin with. You'll also get banned for this kind of attitude. You may want to keep it down.



> Gaara shown that he can keep up with faster characters multiple times,


When ? 


> is very very versatile


No he isn't. Actually he is one of the most one dimensional fighters in the manga. Outside of moving the sand around, he basically has nothing.



> and Sasuke's chidori won't even get close to Gaara. If Gaara was able to catch* Kimmi, of whom imo showed better reflexes and agility than Sasuke ever has*.


Evidence for the bolded ? 



> They have fought before and nothing has really changed for Sasuke other than more chakra and curse seal, but Gaara has become the kazekage, leader of the entire Allied forces and fought top tiers.


Sasuke defeated Gaara with low difficulty before Gaara transformed into mini bijuu, and would stomp his ass if he was able to control Cursed seal properly.

Gaara becoming kazekage and leader of the alliance forces doesn't mean anything because they are just titles. 
And by "fighting top tiers" if you mean fighting Mu and 2nd Mizukage with massive help, then I have to disagree because that doesn't mean Gaara can fight top tiers mainly because : 
1 - He had massive help
2 - Mu or 2nd Mizukage aren't top tier.



Ersatz said:


> How does Kirin not end Gaara if his best defense couldn't even survive the weakest variant of Yasaka Magatama (the small beaded version)? Hell, senjutsu-Chidori could probably do it considering Sasuke broke his defense in Part I without senjutsu empowering his Chidori. And CS1 Sasuke is much faster then Jokie Boy who was already giving Gaara's sand trouble with it's speed.
> 
> It's a tough fight but Sasuke has ample firepower to break Gaara's defense.



I am not sure if Sasuke needs  Kirin here TBH, when any chidori variant has the capability of penetrating through Gaara's defenses.


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## Bloo (Jul 8, 2014)

With full knowledge, Gaara takes this pretty handily. Sasuke is not going to take down War-Arc Gaara with full knowledge. The same Gaara that took out the 4th Kazekage and the 2nd Mizukage, as well as dancing with Madara, with no prior knowledge. Gaara is also the much more intelligent combatant and has the DB Stat and feats to back him up. Along with that, there is nothing in Sasuke's arsenal that will save him from the crushing capabilities of Gaara's sand.

Gaara takes this. I'm surprised that this thread has lasted this long.

EDIT: At the people actually using Kirin as if it's a legitimate argument for Sasuke, do you honestly expect Gaara, a man with a 4 in intelligence and full knowledge on Sasuke in this case, to just stand there idly and wait for Sasuke to attack as he prepares a jutsu that takes the most prep time? No. I disagree. But, if you're going to make that argument, then please, thoroughly explain how that will indeed end up happening.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 8, 2014)

Not top tier(Mu is) but high kage.


Sasuke goes at Gaara with Chidori. Gaara throws up his gourd sand in front of him to block(sasuke doesn't go right through the sand even though his chidori can pierce it) Gaara takes flight and starts grinding sand. And starts to constantly attack Sasuke and Sasuke will get caught eventually. He doesn't have but 2 long range jutsu, which are inaccurate.

Unlike Kimmimaro who could repair his bones and replace them, if Sasuke's foot gets caught...GG He can't fight with a crushed foot. 

Manda is useless and killed quickly.

Only hope Sasuke has is if his initial blitz gets Gaara, and Gaara has shown reaction feats that support that won't happen.

And yet Gaara used a tactic then that we never seen till then and haven't since then. Kazekage Gaara knows he can't just turtle up that he must be constantly moving...and he also did that to transform which was the goal of the Sand village if you don't remember, if this was Chunin exam Gaara then you would be correct, but since then Gaara has exponentially gotten better and smarter and he became the Kazekage, then the leader of the entire army. He has shown he is capable of handling all ranges of jutsu from small scale to large scale.


War Arc Gaara's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chunin Exam Gaara.


Remember Sasuke's speed ain't shit, Gaara shown back in part 1 and early part 2 that he can adequately deal with speedsters and people with great reactions.

Also didn't Sasuke get his ass kicked by Naruto when Naruto got his kn cloak because he couldn't predict the movements of the chakra....same applies here, Gaara can alter the trajectory, shape, and form of his Sand at will, so Sharingan's enhanced perceptive ability will be mostly a non-factor.


And there isn't nothing to debate here. Anyone that isn't on the Uchihas' dicks clearly know that Gaara would shitstomp Sasuke like a lil baby.


Chidori variants have limited ranges, and none exceed 5meter. Maybe Eisou is 5m.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 8, 2014)

Honestly Grim Niku and Esratz are Uchiha fanboys. The only ones who believe Sasuke wins against Current Gaara.
Gaara is a better fighter and a better tactician. Niku purposely put the distance at 5m instead of a more formidable distance. That isn't going to help Sasuke. Gaara caught Deidara and Joki Boy so yea
Hebi Sasuke's hype is oh he killed Deidara( Deidara is powerful not going to lie) but Sasuke would have died as well if nor for Manda. Sasuke won extreme high difficulty regardless if it was practice. (Which it wasn't)
2nd Mizukage >> Hebi Sasuke
Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hebi Sasuke


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 8, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> How does Kirin not end Gaara if his best defense couldn't even survive the weakest variant of Yasaka Magatama (the small beaded version)? Hell, senjutsu-Chidori could probably do it considering Sasuke broke his defense in Part I without senjutsu empowering his Chidori. And CS1 Sasuke is much faster then Jokie Boy who was already giving Gaara's sand trouble with it's speed.
> 
> It's a tough fight but Sasuke has ample firepower to break Gaara's defense.



What don't you get about the fact that Gaara wasn't using his gourd sand?


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 8, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is now becoming Overrated and Gaara is becoming Underrated


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 8, 2014)

MS Sasuke - Danzo fight - would make a more suitable debate


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Not top tier(Mu is) but high kage.
> 
> Sasuke goes at Gaara with Chidori. Gaara throws up his gourd sand in front of him to block(sasuke doesn't go right through the sand even though his chidori can pierce it) Gaara takes flight and starts grinding sand. And starts to constantly attack Sasuke and Sasuke will get caught eventually. He doesn't have but 2 long range jutsu, which are inaccurate.



Sasuke has fought Gaara before, his first instinct would be to outmanuver him before the sand shield can keep up. If Gaara uses the sand sphere, Sasuke can just use the 5 meter chidori lance and rip him apart. Gaara's only option is to get away from Sasuke and considering sasuke's movement speed and mobility with CS2, it won't be easy.



> Unlike Kimmimaro who could repair his bones and replace them, if Sasuke's foot gets caught...GG He can't fight with a crushed foot.


Sasuke has better speed feats than Kimimaro and unlike Kimimaro, Sasuke has wings in Cs2 form, his mobility is ridiciliously higher compared to Kimi. Sasuke's explosive dodging feats against Deidara are more than enough to conclude that Gaara can't really get Sasuke easily, considering he doesn't have Deidara's clay speed or magnitude of explosions. 



> Manda is useless and killed quickly.


Oh realy ? 
Manda is pretty huge, and for Gaara to be able to actually kill manda alone with sand, he needs to grind village size sand which will burn Gaara's chakra reserves. Considering they aren't in the desert, it will require considerable effort and chakra reserves to grind enough sand to kill manda.

Actually Manda alone would give Gaara a tough match, considering he is simply a bad match up against him due to his mobility and sheer size.
So yeah, Manda can keep Gaara's hands full all the time and burn his chakra reserves pretty quick considering Gaara needs to grind and maintain gargantuan amounts of sands to deal with him.



> Only hope Sasuke has is if his initial blitz gets Gaara, and Gaara has shown reaction feats that support that won't happen.


Thats not true, Gaara needs to be in Sasuke's vicinity to be effective and as long as he is, he is always under the threat of getting hit by one Sasuke's techniques. He also needs to constantly avoid any kind of eye contact in between all that.

If he goes OOC and stays far away, then there is always Kirin, which is an instant win, as Gaara has no way to defend against it. 



> And yet Gaara used a tactic then that we never seen till then and haven't since then. Kazekage Gaara knows he can't just turtle up that he must be constantly moving...and he also did that to transform which was the goal of the Sand village if you don't remember, if this was Chunin exam Gaara then you would be correct, but since then Gaara has exponentially gotten better and smarter and he became the Kazekage, then the leader of the entire army. He has shown he is capable of handling all ranges of jutsu from small scale to large scale.


Gaara became better and Sasuke didn't ? 

Then you'd acknowledge that Sasuke has more tricks up his sleeve than just attempting to hit Gaara with chidori after a long distance dash, or try to outmanuver his sand shield with taijutsu.




> War Arc Gaara's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chunin Exam Gaara.



Same goes for chuunin exam Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke.



> Remember Sasuke's speed ain't shit, Gaara shown back in part 1 and early part 2 that he can adequately deal with speedsters and people with great reactions.


Gaara has never went up against someone as fast as Hebi Sasuke. 
Maybe except Joki Boi which he conveniently had the perfect counter to deal with(gold sand chemical reaction to slow it down).
We've seen how speedsters give Gaara trouble as his sand can't catch up with them even in an enviroment full of sand.



> Also didn't Sasuke get his ass kicked by Naruto when Naruto got his kn cloak because he couldn't predict the movements of the chakra....same applies here, Gaara can alter the trajectory, shape, and form of his Sand at will, so Sharingan's enhanced perceptive ability will be mostly a non-factor.


Gaara's sand is nowhere near as fast as Sasuke so, it isn't going to be a problem at all.
KN1 was faster than Sasuke, that is why predicting his movements was essential to his survival.



> And there isn't nothing to debate here. Anyone that isn't on the Uchihas' dicks clearly know that Gaara would shitstomp Sasuke like a lil baby.


Sasuke is perfectly capable of defeating any incarnation of Gaara. He has techniques that can penetrate Gaara's defenses and mobility/speed to evade his sand. I don't see how there can't be a debate here.



> Chidori variants have limited ranges, and none exceed 5meter. Maybe Eisou is 5m.


Unless Gaara can keep himself outside 5 meter range all the time, there is always a chance that he'll get hit.
And if he miracilously does(which assumes Sasuke will never be able to close the distance even with superior speed) Kirin ends him in 1 hit.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke has fought Gaara before, his first instinct would be to outmanuver him before the sand shield can keep up. If Gaara uses the sand sphere, Sasuke can just use the 5 meter chidori lance and rip him apart. Gaara's only option is to get away from Sasuke and considering sasuke's movement speed and mobility with CS2, it won't be easy



And what makes you think Sasuke can outmaneuver Gaara's sand? We can't compare Joki Boi's feats to his (or really, anyone's) and that only applies to dessert sand, which was incidentally fast enough to block Joki's Boi's explosion and Madara's magatama attacks (keep in mind that the magatama is about as fast as the FRS). His gourd sand could intercept Enton and were capable of defending him against five Susano'o clones. There is just no reason to believe Sasuke is fast enough to outmaneuver Gaara's sand defenses.

Likewise, when Gaara's gourd sand can block Susano'o swords, a small portion of it can block Ei's max power kick, and his armor can block senjutsu powered swords these days, the idea that Sasuke's Chidori is going to do just as well this time around is without basis. And Chidori Eiso is longer but weaker (according to the databook, I recall) so it is even less likely to get through. Also, once Gaara is in the air, Sasuke will struggle because he has no noteworthy mobility in the air. Gaara was able to catch Deidara in the air, who has shown far more speed and mobility there than Sasuke has. 


> Oh realy ?
> Manda is pretty huge, and for Gaara to be able to actually kill manda alone with sand, he needs to grind village size sand which will burn Gaara's chakra reserves. Considering they aren't in the desert, it will require considerable effort and chakra reserves to grind enough sand to kill manda.
> 
> Actually Manda alone would give Gaara a tough match, considering he is simply a bad match up against him due to his mobility and sheer size.
> So yeah, Manda can keep Gaara's hands full all the time and burn his chakra reserves pretty quick considering Gaara needs to grind and maintain gargantuan amounts of sands to deal with him.



Part I Gaara was capable of grinding enough sand to launch his sand tsunami without getting noticeably tired. This is Part II Gaara. Grinding on that level is not an issue. And in any case, Sasuke needs genjutsu to control Manda and it's dubious that he could maintain that genjutsu while fighting effectively for that long. 


> Thats not true, Gaara needs to be in Sasuke's vicinity to be effective and as long as he is, he is always under the threat of getting hit by one Sasuke's techniques. He also needs to constantly avoid any kind of eye contact in between all that.



Sasuke doesn't use genjutsu like Itachi so no, eye contact is only an automatic problem if Sasuke is actively using genjutsu at that moment. Which he often isn't. He's made eye contact with a lot of opponents who he then neglected to use genjutsu on. Also Gaara is a long range fighter. He doesn't need to be near Sasuke to be effective. 


> If he goes OOC and stays far away, then there is always Kirin, which is an instant win, as Gaara has no way to defend against it.



The sand defense he raised almost instantly to block C3 might well be sufficient to block Kirin, or at least a good deal of it so his sand sphere and armor could soak the rest. And Kirin takes enough prep time and Sasuke is so obvious about it's use that it gives Gaara time to react. 


> Same goes for chuunin exam Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke.



On the other hand, there is zero evidence that Sasuke's Chidori is any stronger.


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## Ersa (Jul 8, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> What don't you get about the fact that Gaara wasn't using his gourd sand?


The same gourd sand that Sasuke smashed through back in Part I?

A Sasuke who was vastly weaker and not using senjutsu? Yes I know Gaara improved but Sasuke improved as well. And senjutsu makes a fucking different, look at VOTE CS2 Chidori's explosion compared to regular Chidori, it's multiple times stronger.


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## Akitō (Jul 8, 2014)

Not sure how Sasuke's Chidori stacks up to Garra's sand defense, but if it performs as well as it did during the Chūnin Exams, this'll go in Sasuke's favor. Garra isn't mobile enough to contend with Sasuke if he has something that can negate the sand.

I haven't yet seen any arguments in regards to Chidori piercing the gourd sand that I find to be convincing, although I haven't read through the entire thread. I can somewhat see where people are coming from when they equate the difference between Part II Garra and Part II Sasuke to the difference between Part I Garra and Part I Sasuke, but I also find it unrealistic to assume that Garra didn't get any stronger throughout Part II, which is what you'd have to assume for that argument to work. 

I'm right now favoring the opposing argument that says that because Garra's sand blocked a Susano'o-clone strike, it can block Sasuke's Chidori. We don't know exactly how the two attacks stack up to each other, but didn't A battle Madara's clones and get hit and knocked away by Susano'o? If so, I think we can argue that because Chidori failed to get through A's shroud and Susano'o didn't, a hit from Susano'o is stronger. That then leads to the conclusion that Garra's sand can block Sasuke's Chidori because it blocked something stronger.


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## Picaso del Torro (Jul 8, 2014)

chidori didnt fail to pierce rainton armour, it penetrated the amour and raikage, chidori spear has cut bijuu, juubi monsters, and clay monsters, given its advantage over sand , it should work. not saying hebi sasuke really wins, if he does it would be high- mid diff 5/10


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## Ashi (Jul 8, 2014)

It seems all Uchiha are highly wanked on this four indiscriminately 

Gaara kept up with Madara of all people yet will somehow be blitzed by Hebi Sasuke

The logic of Uchiha fans is impeccable


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> And what makes you think Sasuke can outmaneuver Gaara's sand? We can't compare Joki Boi's feats to his (or really, anyone's) and that only applies to dessert sand, which was incidentally fast enough to block Joki's Boi's explosion and Madara's magatama attacks (keep in mind that the magatama is about as fast as the FRS). His gourd sand could intercept Enton and were capable of defending him against five Susano'o clones. There is just no reason to believe Sasuke is fast enough to outmaneuver Gaara's sand defenses.



Defending against a linear attack launched from a big distance isn't the same as defending against someone who can move freely and change his trajectory @ will.
Gaara can't afford to raise a momy defense prematurely either, so he needs to actually wait for Sasuke to attack or hop on his sand and move the hell away. 
We have no way to know how fast Susano'o clones were,  but going by what Madara said "clones which have susano'O aren't fast enough to avoid jinton" I am guessing they weren't really fast or were as fast as they could be without Susano'o. Needless to say, we haven't seen them moving around with high speed.

L





> ikewise, when Gaara's gourd sand can block Susano'o swords, a small portion of it can block Ei's max power kick, and his armor can block senjutsu powered swords these days, the idea that Sasuke's Chidori is going to do just as well this time around is without basis. And Chidori Eiso is longer but weaker (according to the databook, I recall) so it is even less likely to get through. Also, once Gaara is in the air, Sasuke will struggle because he has no noteworthy mobility in the air. Gaara was able to catch Deidara in the air, who has shown far more speed and mobility there than Sasuke has.


We have no idea whether Ei's kick was max power or not, besides it was a blunt attack blocked by an interception feat.  Do you mean Madara's Susano'o sword launched from a distance ? Madara's swords don't seem to be sharp or have any notable feats of penetrating anything hyped for its durability. Tsunade could shatter Madara's ribcage with her firsts but when she grabbed and swung Madara's sword and hit him, it did absolutely no damage on the ribcage. 
Comparing those attacks to Sasuke's raiton arsenal which are mainly highly  concentrated piercing attacks doesn't mean much TBH.



> Part I Gaara was capable of grinding enough sand to launch his sand tsunami without getting noticeably tired. This is Part II Gaara. Grinding on that level is not an issue. And in any case, Sasuke needs genjutsu to control Manda and it's dubious that he could maintain that genjutsu while fighting effectively for that long.


That Sand Tsunami would do nothing to Manda. And Part 1 Gaara had Shukaku inside him. 
Also there is no evidence that Sasuke needs genjutsu to make manda fight for him. He needs to genjutsu control him to become a brainless meat shield.



> Sasuke doesn't use genjutsu like Itachi so no, eye contact is only an automatic problem if Sasuke is actively using genjutsu at that moment. Which he often isn't. He's made eye contact with a lot of opponents who he then neglected to use genjutsu on. Also Gaara is a long range fighter. He doesn't need to be near Sasuke to be effective.


Refer to Sasuke vs Deidara/Danzo. Sasuke may not exactly be a genjutsu oriented fighter like Itachi but he surely knows how to capitalize on moments when their opponent make eye contact.



> The sand defense he raised almost instantly to block C3 might well be sufficient to block Kirin, or at least a good deal of it so his sand sphere and armor could soak the rest. And Kirin takes enough prep time and Sasuke is so obvious about it's use that it gives Gaara time to react.


C3 isn't a penetrating attack like Kirin. Also Kirin is much faster than C3. 


> On the other hand, there is zero evidence that Sasuke's Chidori is any stronger.



Doesn't need to be. There is no evidence that Gaara can block Sasuke's chidori anyways.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 8, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> The same gourd sand that Sasuke smashed through back in Part I?
> 
> A Sasuke who was vastly weaker and not using senjutsu? Yes I know Gaara improved but Sasuke improved as well. And senjutsu makes a fucking different, look at VOTE CS2 Chidori's explosion compared to regular Chidori, it's multiple times stronger.



You bring up the Part 1 arguements. This is farther than part 1 so it's invalid. i was talking about speed not strength. 

Gaara can fly out of Sasuke's range turn everything into a desert and Sasuke loses. Honestly the portrayal alone should be enough. 
Part 2 Gaara >=Hebi Sasuke
Part 3 Gaara >> Hebi Sasuke
It's not that hard to understand.

You have no proof that Sasuke's Chidori can cut through Part 3 Gaara's Sand.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke has fought Gaara before, his first instinct would be to outmanuver him before the sand shield can keep up. If Gaara uses the sand sphere, Sasuke can just use the 5 meter chidori lance and rip him apart. Gaara's only option is to get away from Sasuke and considering sasuke's movement speed and mobility with CS2, it won't be easy.


But its not just a shield. Yes it will because Gaara can pressure Sasuke. Gaara won't try to stop Chidori he will try to stop Sasuke's movements.


> Sasuke has better speed feats than Kimimaro and unlike Kimimaro, Sasuke has wings in Cs2 form, his mobility is ridiciliously higher compared to Kimi. Sasuke's explosive dodging feats against Deidara are more than enough to conclude that Gaara can't really get Sasuke easily, considering he doesn't have Deidara's clay speed or magnitude of explosions.


BUt to dodge Gaara's sand and to outmaneuver it then Sasuke will need agility. And that was not even war Arc Gaara. No not really other than Kimi's CS slowing him down, he was evading everything with ease. Naruto never landed a hit, and it took Lee a good while and drunk to even have a chance to match his reactions, agility, and attack speed.  Oh you mean when Sasuke was more or less hoping it would work and if it wasn't because of raiton. He had to stab himself with Chidori, had to use a S/T jutsu to summon Manda then put Manda into a genjutsu, and take shelter of which he never ever ever used again even when getting the shit kicked out of him or against Itachi...PLOT. Gaara was managing just fine and wasn't evading but blocking the explosions from hitting the village and that is the sole reason he lost. 

If he grinds some sand, he can use it as soon as its available and can grind at a rather fast pace as seen against Kimmi and that is how he caught him. Sasuke must be on the ground or near at almost all times and that means that he will get caught, maybe not immediately but Gaara's sand will overwhelm him. Gaara can make it rain.





> Oh realy ?
> Manda is pretty huge, and for Gaara to be able to actually kill manda alone with sand, he needs to grind village size sand which will burn Gaara's chakra reserves. Considering they aren't in the desert, it will require considerable effort and chakra reserves to grind enough sand to kill manda.


 Not really Manda comes at him opens his mouth, Gaara rips him open with sand from the inside out...GG Manda is to big and that is his problem. Make it Manda II and it might be a fight.





> Actually Manda alone would give Gaara a tough match, considering he is simply a bad match up against him due to his mobility and sheer size.
> So yeah, Manda can keep Gaara's hands full all the time and burn his chakra reserves pretty quick considering Gaara needs to grind and maintain gargantuan amounts of sands to deal with him.


It doesn't take that much chakra, War arc Gaara has pretty good chakra reserves...and I just explained ththe other part.





> Thats not true, Gaara needs to be in Sasuke's vicinity to be effective and as long as he is, he is always under the threat of getting hit by one Sasuke's techniques. He also needs to constantly avoid any kind of eye contact in between all that.


That's an absolute twisted delusion. Gaara is a LONG RANGE FIGHTER as Kimmi said. Good thing Gaara can make a third eye and has full knowledge and a sensing capability.





> If he goes OOC and stays far away, then there is always Kirin, which is an instant win, as Gaara has no way to defend against it.


You mean if he stays IC...War Arc Gaara tries to keep his distance as much as possible and was even able to attack the Kages at a hell of a distance.  Your right about Kirin, but I don't see Sasuke lasting for 5 minutes. 





> Gaara became better and Sasuke didn't ?


Well yea Sasuke did, But Gaara became the Kazekage, and the leader of the entire ALLIED SHINOBI ARMY in a fight to save the world. When the world was on the line Gaara was in charge and he did a hell of a job. Sasuke on the other hand studied under Orochimaru, got a few new jutsu, new ways to utilize his chidori(but still limited in range, its downfall), and in no way does his experience against Deidara, KN Naruto, and Itachi stack against Kimmi, Mizukage, his father and his whole new style of fighting. Compared to the same ole Sasuke that hasn't really learned anything and hasn't fought any high tiers(other than Deidara who imo should've won but Plot over rode that). Its like comparing a Lt. to a 4 star general.





> Then you'd acknowledge that Sasuke has more tricks up his sleeve than just attempting to hit Gaara with chidori after a long distance dash, or try to outmanuver his sand shield with taijutsu.


He would get absolutely wrecked if he tries base Taijutsu. He is going to need raiton flow and Gaara know that so Gaara will try to keep his distance the best he can and If Sasuke has to rush in he will get caught. Sasuke will need to be pulling shit like Kimmi did when evading the sand or he is fucked and Sasuke hasn't shown the ability to do it. But when it comes down to it Sasuke's entire arsenal other than Raiton flow(chidori) is rather useless, while Gaara's entire arsenal is deadly against most anyone. Its power is off the charts just because its a crushing force.





> Same goes for chuunin exam Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke.


In a sense yes, but in scope no.





> Gaara has never went up against someone as fast as Hebi Sasuke.
> Maybe except Joki Boi which he conveniently had the perfect counter to deal with(gold sand chemical reaction to slow it down).
> We've seen how speedsters give Gaara trouble as his sand can't catch up with them even in an enviroment full of sand.


He came up with the gold idea on the fly(battle intelligence), and Kimmi was more agile(IM not going to post every page of that fight, just go back and read the chapters and be astounded by the amazingness that Kimmi truely is). Yes and in war he knew he must conserve his energy he was also able to win every fight he was put in up until Madara came in.





> Gaara's sand is nowhere near as fast as Sasuke so, it isn't going to be a problem at all.
> KN1 was faster than Sasuke, that is why predicting his movements was essential to his survival.


 No Kn1 was able to hit Sasuke because of the mechanics of the cloak. Gaara's sand doesn't have to be, he has a lot in his gourd(which is also sand) and can grind sand at a rather fast pace. When facing a speedster that is deadly in close range then you must overwhelm him at long and mid range while having most your defenses set in close range. If Sasuke step on sand then his foot is crushed  GG.





> Sasuke is perfectly capable of defeating any incarnation of Gaara. He has techniques that can penetrate Gaara's defenses and mobility/speed to evade his sand. I don't see how there can't be a debate here.


And Gaara has shown the capabilities of being able to catch people that are faster than him, and has changed his fighting style.

Lol so fucking delusional. You need to read the entire fucking manga again from Page 1.





> Unless Gaara can keep himself outside 5 meter range all the time, there is always a chance that he'll get hit.
> And if he miracilously does(which assumes Sasuke will never be able to close the distance even with superior speed) Kirin ends him in 1 hit.


A chance, if that chance is 50% than that means that Sasuke has a 50% chance of getting caught.

Gaara can block Sasuke's movements but not Chidoris piercing abilities and he knows this and has experience in fighting Sasuke while he is fast and using  Chidori and for you to assume that the fight will go that way is fucking ridiculous.


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## Empathy (Jul 8, 2014)

Gaara's gourd sand was relatively cut (but not all the way through) by A's _Girochin Doroppu_. This was an attack without A's strength behind it, and moved only at the speed of gravity; though it was intended to bypass Sasuke's _Susanoo_ ribcage. Sasuke's _Chidori_ could cut through A's shroud and leave a negligible wound on his chest. Based on that, I'd say Sasuke's _Juin_-enhanced _Chidori_ has a good chance at bypassing Gaara's defense. Albeit, that wasn't Gaara at the war arc. Despite _Susanoo's_ blade being bigger and stronger, it was less refined in terms of it's piercing capacity. 

The slash was more of brute strength-attack almost like blunt force. Slashes from a sword that size are somewhat wide and dull when compared to small human bodies. Better suited to crush than to make refined cuts; that's why Gaara was sent flying by the force of the swing when they breached his defense, instead of cutting him in half. A direct impaling motion instead of a swinging one with _Susanoo's_ blade, probably would've breached Gaara's gourd sand, too. That's why he instead of blocking it to save Mei, he opted for evasion instead.


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## Akitō (Jul 8, 2014)

Empathy said:


> Gaara's gourd sand was relatively cut (but not all the way through) by A's _Girochin Doroppu_. This was an attack without A's strength behind it, and moved only at the speed of gravity; though it was intended to bypass Sasuke's _Susanoo_ ribcage. Sasuke's _Chidori_ could cut through A's shroud and leave a negligible wound on his chest. Based on that, I'd say Sasuke's _Juin_-enhanced _Chidori_ has a good chance at bypassing Gaara's defense.



How does your reasoning lead to your conclusion? The only way it works is if you assume that A's shroud is stronger than the ribcage of Susano'o. And I don't think that's an accurate assumption at all. 



Picaso del Torro said:


> chidori didnt fail to pierce rainton armour, it penetrated the amour and raikage, chidori spear has cut bijuu, juubi monsters, and clay monsters, given its advantage over sand , it should work. not saying hebi sasuke really wins, if he does it would be high- mid diff 5/10



Well, it pierced the armor but barely left a scratch on A if I'm remembering correctly. I haven't read the Madara vs. Kage fight since it came out, but I think A's shroud was broken and he was sent flying by a hit from Susano'o. That should still make a Susano'o hit stronger than Chidori, shouldn't it?

And what advantage are you referring to that Chidori has over sand?


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## Bonly (Jul 8, 2014)

Akitō said:


> rced the armor but barely left a scratch on A if I'm remembering correctly. I haven't read the Madara vs. Kage fight since it came out, but *I think A's shroud was broken and he was sent flying by a hit from Susano'o.* That should still make a Susano'o hit stronger than Chidori, shouldn't it?



I don't believe that actually happened. The only time A had his armor up and was hit by anything in Madara's arsenal and lost it was when he was hit by Genjutsu from a clone. If you're referring to this(closest thing I could find to the bold) then that wouldn't be the case since we see here that A didn't have the armor up.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Defending against a linear attack launched from a big distance isn't the same as defending against someone who can move freely and change his trajectory @ will.
> Gaara can't afford to raise a momy defense prematurely either, so he needs to actually wait for Sasuke to attack or hop on his sand and move the hell away.



What's with these arbitrary restrictions on Gaara? He can raise any defense he wants whenever he wants with no consequences outside of chakra use, which he has tons of, and he can fly away so it's not just "something he can do" but something he will do if need be. 


> We have no way to know how fast Susano'o clones were,  but going by what Madara said "clones which have susano'O aren't fast enough to avoid jinton" I am guessing they weren't really fast or were as fast as they could be without Susano'o. Needless to say, we haven't seen them moving around with high speed.



There's also the fact that Madara lost an arm and a leg even while being much further from giant Jinton than the clones. I'm dubious of the notion that Madara could have gotten out of there himself had he been as close. But regardless, while I am perfectly willing to cede that his clones are slower, especially with Susano'o, it doesn't matter because we aren't comparing Jinton to Sasuke. I don't think he would get out of there either, with greater certainty than I say that of Madara. 


> L
> We have no idea whether Ei's kick was max power or not, besides it was a blunt attack blocked by an interception feat.



His shroud was charged to max it was max power. That it was an interception feat only makes it difficult to use for speed (although it does indicate that Gaara's sand is quite fast to have reached him in time even after he was in free fall but not enough for precision analysis). Not strength. 





> Do you mean Madara's Susano'o sword launched from a distance ? Madara's swords don't seem to be sharp or have any notable feats of penetrating anything hyped for its durability. Tsunade could shatter Madara's ribcage with her firsts but when she grabbed and swung Madara's sword and hit him, it did absolutely no damage on the ribcage.



You are completely wrong. Madara's swords busted through Gaara's Karura defense and Onoki's stone golem at once with a single thrust. Admittedly they were already damaged but that's something. And one of his swords pierced through Tsunade which is also something because his mini magatama failed to do so. Oh and her sword never hit the ribcage. Madara stopped her from doing so with those magatama. The very fact she used the sword after testing her punches against it and the fact he felt the need to defend Susano'o rather than tank as he had been doing indicates it would have been more effective though. 


> That Sand Tsunami would do nothing to Manda. And Part 1 Gaara had Shukaku inside him.
> Also there is no evidence that Sasuke needs genjutsu to make manda fight for him. He needs to genjutsu control him to become a brainless meat shield.



The tsunami, know, but if caught in it, he could be restrained and Gaara would have the leisure of disposing of him by slipping sand into his body cavities and wrecking havoc on his insides. So what if he has Shukaku inside him? Gaara's reserves since then seem to be greater than ever and certainly don't seem to be worse. And what on earth makes you think Sasuke can control him without genjutsu? Orochimaru can barely do that and Manda demanded sacrifices. Manda never demonstrated any respect for Sasuke at all. 


> Refer to Sasuke vs Deidara/Danzo. Sasuke may not exactly be a genjutsu oriented fighter like Itachi but he surely knows how to capitalize on moments when their opponent make eye contact.



And since Obito confirmed that Danzo was so cocky about fighting the Sharingan that even after having been caught once he never stopped making eye contact, that would be more difficult. It's also harder to tell if someone is making eye contact rather than just looking in your direction at range so he would have to be concentrating. It's not enough to assert instant eye contact. It's a possibility, if Gaara for some reason after having fought against Madara even doesn't know a thing about avoiding that (which isn't hard to do especially from range), but it needs a concerted defense. 


> C3 isn't a penetrating attack like Kirin. Also Kirin is much faster than C3.



It might not be penetrative but that doesn't mean it's inferior in destructive capacity. Plus no Amaterasu here. And I doubt the lightning bolt is that much faster than the explosion. Including prep prior to that I don't see a big difference. Kirin seems to take even longer, assuming C3 drop bombs can be created in similar time to C4 bombs. You are just making pretty big assumptions in Sasuke's favor. I have not positively argued Gaara's defense can necessarily stand, but you just assume it doesn't but have no basis for saying so. 


> Doesn't need to be. There is no evidence that Gaara can block Sasuke's chidori anyways.



No evidence against it. But actually there is something for my argument as opposed to yours. Your argument goes primarily along the lines of the fact of what happened in Part I. But while there is no reason or evidence suggesting Sasuke's Chidori got stronger, we have countless examples of all the feats Gaara's sand accomplished. Now you could argue that piercing just automatically trumps all forms of blunt force, explosive force, or what have you but that's absolutely baseless. Logically while piercing should be the most effective per square inch, some explosions and some blunt force should be greater than some piercing attacks and I'm sure you would agree. But to put into perspective just how much stronger Gaara's sand is, just compare Gai and Ei. In Part I, Gai dispersed a large amount of Gaara's sand while he was in base with a single, casual swat of his arm. Now the sand sphere concentrates Gaara's power more but I don't think there can be much doubt that a concentrated punch from Gai as the one that smashed the Oto nin into the wall and through it could break through the sphere no problem. But a small amount of gourd sand completely blocked Ei's kick when his shroud was maxed out. And surely we can agree that in that state he should be at least as strong if not very likely stronger than Part I base Gai. (I say that because Ei was casually punching through walls and yet used the shroud to amp up the power of his big wrestler throw technique). 

At the very least, Gaara's gourd sand should be able to sponge pretty much all the power from Chidori as Susano'o sponged Kirin's power even thought it failed.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 8, 2014)

But at the same time Base Bee laughed a point blank chidori off.


A was pretty damn certain that Sasuke was going to die even if he legs got caught by enton spikes. And that is the general consensus.


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## Ersa (Jul 8, 2014)

B counteracted a Chidori sword by channeling his own Raiton to cancel it out, it's what Kakashi did with his Raikiri against Kakuzu's Raiton. It's not even remotely the same thing.


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## Empathy (Jul 9, 2014)

Akitō said:


> How does your reasoning lead to your conclusion? The only way it works is if you assume that A's shroud is stronger than the ribcage of Susano'o. And I don't think that's an accurate assumption at all.



Gaara's sand was cut by A's shrouded attack (which wasn't supplemented by his speed or strength), therefore it's likely that Sasuke's _Juin_-enhanced _Chidori_ could breach Gaara's defense, because Sasuke could piece through A's shroud. _Chidori_ is sharper than _Raiton no Yoroi_, I guess is my point. The only credence A's attack has to it is that he thought it could get past the ribcage of _Susanoo_, but that ventures into assumptions on the outcome of their fight, had Gaara not intervened. The rest was me harping on the sharpness of _Susanoo_ blade, which was just directed toward the counterargrument. _Raiton no Yoroi_ isn't a superior defense than _Susanoo_ ribs, but it is a superior offense as far as a offense versus a defense is concerned.


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## Akitō (Jul 9, 2014)

Empathy said:


> The only credence A's attack has to it is that he thought it could get past the ribcage of _Susanoo_, but that ventures into assumptions on the outcome of their fight, had Gaara not intervened.



I think it's reasonable to assume that it could get past the Susano'o ribcage because he wouldn't have used it if it couldn't. He knows how strong Susano'o is and he's broken it before, so we know that he has the necessary strength. The implication of the scene I think was that A would've lost his leg and Sasuke would've died or been gravely injured if Garra hadn't intervened. 

And where are you getting the idea that there was no strength behind the Guillotine Drop? It seems to be a kicking action supplemented by gravity. It would be a terrible technique if all he was doing was sticking his leg out and falling. It's a named move that was used in a serious situation. Him just falling with his leg out would be a lot worse than him literally just running into his opponents.


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## Empathy (Jul 10, 2014)

I personally believe that, instead of Gaara simply breaking up a fight between Sasuke and the Raikage, Gaara actually saved A from losing another limb and possibly his life. If Gaara could block _Girochin Doroppu_ with just that amount of sand, then I doubt A had much of a chance at getting past the ribcage of _Susanoo_ to severely injure or kill Sasuke. The Yondaime Raikage's _Raigyaku Suihei_ didn't do much damage after getting past _Susanoo_ and it cost him an arm. That attack should've had a lot more of A's version two speed and strength behind it as well, when compared to the leg-drop. I was under the impression that _Girochin Doroppu_ is just another wrestling move (in this case, a leg-drop) amplified by _Raiton no Yoroi_, which adds cutting properties toward it. If it just moves at the speed of gravity, then it should largely depend on it's own cutting capacity. A _Juin_-enhanced _Chidori_ should have greater piercing capacity than _Girochin Doroppu_ is my point (this is supported when base _Chidori_ pierces A's version one _Raiton no Yoroi_). Therefore, it stands a good chance of breaching Gaara's defense as well. Possibly in base, too.


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## genii96 (Jul 10, 2014)

Gaara low diff


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## Akitō (Jul 10, 2014)

Empathy said:


> If Gaara could block _Girochin Doroppu_ with just that amount of sand, then I doubt A had much of a chance at getting past the ribcage of _Susanoo_ to severely injure or kill Sasuke.



So you think that A purposefully was committing suicide by using a technique that he probably knew wouldn't get past Susano'o? The fact remains that he knew what it took to get past Susano'o, and considering Raigyaku Suihei was at the lower end of what you'd need to get past Susano'o, it'd be completely illogical for him to use a weaker jutsu. 

I agree that he most certainly would've at least lost his leg, but I think in his rage that was a price that he was willing to take in order to kill Sasuke. 



> That attack should've had a lot more of A's version two speed and strength behind it as well, when compared to the leg-drop.



I can see the speed aspect, but why would it have more strength behind it? Just think about it from A's perspective: according to you, he's using a jutsu weaker than one that just managed to break through Susano'o knowing full well that using the jutsu will cause his leg to burn off. Why would he do this if he isn't going to kill Sasuke? 

Clearly he thought it'd finish him off.


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## RedChidori (Jul 10, 2014)

*LostSelf is spot on*



LostSelf said:


> I am pretty sure that if Gaara puts the same pressure of sand he used to guard against C3, he is crushing Sasuke with minimal effort. I dare to say that with half of that pressure he used to create the shield is enough to crush Sasuke's body once he caughts it.
> 
> The only way i see Sasuke winning is pressuring Gaara thanks to the incredibly short distance made for him to win, but otherwise, this Gaara kills him. He is not tanking his sand, and Gaara only needs to caught one feet/leg and crush it to make the battle to his favor as Sasuke will be or flying or running via little jumps with one feet.



I gotta go with LostSelf here. 

The only way I see Sauce winning is if he can counter Gaara's sand with Katons, Raitons, and use Snake Summons for meat shields long enough to prep Kirin and take the win.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 11, 2014)

Sasuke undoubtedly has the speed to outwit the sand in its more offensive mode, but ultimately Gaara's defense is the real problem. Sasuke hasn't really any great jutsu to penetrate it. There's Chidori and Kirin but Chidori is far too slow in penetrating the sand, and in that time Gaara could easily counter attack. Garra has a decent array of mid and long range attacks too, moreso than Sasuke. Sasuke's best chance is mid range to close but I think that's far too detrimental. 

The 3rd scenario it's definitely clear that Sasuke wins. But the first two I'm not entirely certain. Possibly Sasuke can out speed him and pierce through the sand via his Lighting Sword, but Gaara also has a defense in width and length that exceeds the sword's range. Close range it's Gaara's game, but that's the only chance Sasuke truly has at defeating him. I don't see Sasuke winning the first scenarios. The sand will overwhelm him, I think.


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## Empathy (Jul 11, 2014)

Akitō said:


> So you think that A purposefully was committing suicide by using a technique that he probably knew wouldn't get past Susano'o? The fact remains that he knew what it took to get past Susano'o, and considering Raigyaku Suihei was at the lower end of what you'd need to get past Susano'o, it'd be completely illogical for him to use a weaker jutsu.
> 
> I agree that he most certainly would've at least lost his leg, but I think in his rage that was a price that he was willing to take in order to kill Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Yes, I believe that in A's enraged state, he made irrational decisions to sacrifice his arm and leg just do some harm to Sasuke. A's indignation was so great, he probably would've continued destroying his body for a chance to avenge Killer Bee. It's perfectly befitting of his ill-tempered character. Moreover, A did not purposefully jump onto the black flames. A starts his drop here as follow up attack after he knocked him down, but Sasuke doesn't put up a flame defense until here and here, when it was too late for A to stop his attack. 

It probably would've just done similar damage to _Raigyaku Suihei_ at best, as an appropriate follow-up attack if Sasuke hadn't recovered fast enough to mount a proper defense. _Raigyaku Suihei_ is an attack that chops bijuu horns and cracked the _Susanoo_ ribs of Madara and Sasuke. _Girochin Doroppu_ was blocked by a meager amount of Gaara's gourd sand. Based on it's feats, it wasn't coming close to killing Sasuke. A had to discard an arm just to moderately injure Sasuke enough to knock him down, and throwing away his leg would've once again done more harm to him than it would to Sasuke. Gaara definitely wasn't saving Sasuke there, but A, from further injury.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 28, 2014)

Without a dessert, Gaara probably only grew stronger in proportion to what Sasuke grew, and he was weaker than Sasuke  in Part 1 without Shukaku.

Sasuke's Chidori and Chidori variants can bypass all of Gaara's sand defenses, and Kirin can defeat Gaara again.

Gaara showed againts Joki Boy that he has difficulty with speedsters like Sasuke, who has the CS to and shushin to augment his speed even more.

Sasuke also has snake summons to get out of Gaara's techniques like Naruto did in Part 1.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 28, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Without a dessert, Gaara probably only grew stronger in proportion to what Sasuke grew, and he was weaker than Sasuke  in Part 1 without Shukaku.
> 
> Sasuke's Chidori and Chidori variants can bypass all of Gaara's sand defenses, and Kirin can defeat Gaara again.
> 
> ...



Read the other comments. Hebi Sasuke isn't winning against Current Gaara


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## Amol (Jul 29, 2014)

Gaara wins.
All he needs to do is go airborne.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Read the other comments. Hebi Sasuke isn't winning against Current Gaara



I'm curious as to why you say this. I hate using ABC logic, but Sasuke defeated Deidara without being bloodlusted and Deidara having help, while Gaara in a dessert, couldn't defeat a non-bloodlusted Deidara, who was short on clay to begin with, and who didn't have any help.

Sasuke in part 1 was stronger bar Shukaku Force.

Sasuke owned Team 7.

Sasuke owned about a dozen CS users.

Sasuke owned Suigetsu and Juugo without any effort

Sasuke defeated an armless and crippled Orochimaru effortlessly (albeit weakened, I'm not sure Gaara would do any better. 

Hell, Sasuke managed to atleast put up some fight againts Itachi, even though we know Itachi was holding back, dying and almost blind.

But I think your'e understimating this form of Sasuke.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 29, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> I'm curious as to why you say this. I hate using ABC logic, but Sasuke defeated Deidara without being bloodlusted and Deidara having help, while Gaara in a dessert, couldn't defeat a non-bloodlusted Deidara, who was short on clay to begin with, and who didn't have any help.
> 
> Sasuke in part 1 was stronger bar Shukaku Force.
> 
> ...



Yes please 2nd Mizukage >>> anyone you have mentioned. 

Gaara could do that blindfolded.

The 2nd Mizukage is above Deidara, Juugo, Team 7(beginning) 
Gaara was able to restrain Susanoo for a bit. Sasuke's best feat was....


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## JuicyG (Jul 29, 2014)

At 5 meters its realistic that Sasuke can pull this off.....


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

Gaara showed againts the Mizukage that he cant beat a decent Kage without being guided step by step like a todler and still needed the his dads gold which was merely luck for him. Had the Mizukage being bloodlusted Id be a different story. Gaara was about to be blasted away by Muu too.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 29, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Gaara showed againts the Mizukage that he cant beat a decent Kage without being guided step by step like a todler and still needed the his dads which was merely luck for him. Had the Mizukage being bloodlusted Id be a different story. Gaara was about to be blasted away by Muu too.



No, Gaara showed to be able to work with what he had.
Keep in mind those people were alive long before him. His performance was exceptional. At the end of the day Gaara still won and was able to protect the fodder ninja. With no knowledge of course he would have lost, but still. Gaara's performance was great against 2 kage level opponents he did not know.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> No, Gaara showed to be able to work with what he had.
> Keep in mind those people were alive long before him. His performance was exceptional. At the end of the day Gaara still won and was able to protect the fodder ninja. With no knowledge of course he would have lost, but still. Gaara's performance was great against 2 kage level opponents he did not know.



Well, guess what? You don't get to have knowledge on everyone you fight. That'd be convenient wouldn't it?

Mizukage and Muu were both superior to Gaara.

Then Madara arrived and he again needed Onoki's help to lighten his sand and Naruto for the offensive, and Madara was just playing around.

Thats why when he didn't have knowledge on someone: Deidara, he got killed and his bijuu removed.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 29, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Well, guess what? You don't get to have knowledge on everyone you ght. That'd be convenient wouldn't it?
> 
> Mizukage and Muu were both superior to Gaara.
> 
> ...



Gaara still won those fights. He was multitasking like a beast. So what are you talking about. Gaaras ceats are way above Hebi Sasukes


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

His feats are above Sasuke's?

Sasuke beat Deidara holding back, Gaara lost.

Sasuke would own the Mizukage; Sharingan sees through Genjutsu. Chidori eisou destroys clam, Sasuke proceeds to anhiliate the Mizukage and Joki Boy with Chidori eisou + CS, or Kirin. Gaara had to be coached like a baby throughout the whole fight, and also had Onoki's help.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 29, 2014)

KyuubiYondknowledge said:


> His feats are above Sasuke's?
> 
> Sasuke beat Deidara holding back, Gaara lost.
> 
> Sasuke would own the Mizukage; Sharingan sees through Genjutsu. Chidori eisou destroys clam, Sasuke proceeds to anhiliate the Mizukage and Joki Boy with Chidori eisou + CS, or Kirin. Gaara had to be coached like a baby throughout the whole fight, and also had Onoki's help.



Doubt it with no knowledge.

At the end he won extreme high difficulty yet Deidara is still on a higher tier. Deidara could have bombed Sasuke with C3. 

Gaara beat 2 kage in one day
Assisted in help with Madara
Blocked Susanoo and grabbed Madara
Despite oil being a weakness showed tactics in order to get around it
Sasuke beat Deidara because he had raiton. Gaara was holding back as well because of the village

Part 2 Gaara does not equal Current Gaara
He wasn't coached like a baby the fodder were. He showed intelligence beyond Sasukes level in the Mizukage fight. Wtf are you talking about?


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Doubt it with no knowledge.



Sasuke decifered Deidara's fighting style to the pefection without any knowledge.

He developed a counter to both Ei, Danzou, etc.

He's never fought someone with full knowledge.

The Sharingan sees through Genjutsu, just like he saw through Itachi's, just like he saw Deidara's invicible bombs.

Thats all the finding out he needs to do. Afterwards, he can proceed to rape with Chidori Eisou, Snake summons, Curse seal, Kirin, etc.




> Gaara beat 2 kage in one day


He was guided step by like a child to "beat" the Mizukage, *while the Mizukage had absolutely no bloodlust.* He also had Onoki's help.



> Assisted in help with Madara


With help from Onoki, Sage Naruto's clone, and Madara was toying around with them.

Then he had help of  four other Kages and got owned by Madara with both PS and without it and owned.

Onoki was the one who finished Madara's clones.



> Blocked Susanoo and grabbed Madara


With Onoki lighting his sand and managed to do nothing with it and had to rely on Naruto's clone offensive over his own, even though he had a dessert of sand at his disposal.



> Despite oil being a weakness showed tactics in order to get around it


Again, with Mizukage guiding him step by step like a child, Onoki's help, and 0 bloodlust from the Mizukage. Oh and his dad's gold.



> Sasuke beat Deidara because he had raiton.


Sasuke could have ended the fight anytime with Kirin as he told Deidara what he'd do if he wouldn't have had the Raiton advantage..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 29, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> His feats are above Sasuke's?


Yes, quite a bit so. Gaara at full power could handle a superior version of Sasuke and forced him to retreat to get Danzo.


> Sasuke beat Deidara holding back, Gaara lost.


It took EVERYTHING Sasuke had to defeat Deidara. Even with his elemental advantage, Sasuke was on his last legs fighting Deidara and had to access Orochimaru's chakra to pull the Great Snake Escape since he couldn't escape himself.

Deidara had to use Sunagakure against Gaara to beat him. If Gaara decided to sacrifice the village, he would have won.


> Sasuke would own the Mizukage; Sharingan sees through Genjutsu.


Wrong. The Sharingan makes it easier to _recognize_ genjutsu, but doesn't automatically break him out. Given that _thousands of sensors couldn't find a way to break it_, Sasuke would likely be unable to due to how the genjutsu works. Its a battlefield wide, NOT personal genjutsu.


> Chidori eisou destroys clam, Sasuke proceeds to anhiliate the Mizukage and Joki Boy with Chidori eisou + CS, or Kirin.


Chidori Eiso would bounce off the Clam's shell like nothing. Its not until EMS it gets some decent cutting feats. 

The Mizukage would troll Sasuke incredibly easily. Kirin? Dude, that technique takes too much prep. Its completely useless in a battledome battle for Hebi Sasuke due to how it works.


> Gaara had to be coached like a baby throughout the whole fight, and also had Onoki's help.


Gaara was stalling for time to protect the rest of the division, KyuubiYondaime. He was trying to find the clam (which he did), and he has a few techniques to deal with it without Onoki's help.

Not to mention he defeated Joki Boi on his own even though Mu couldn't.


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## Bonly (Jul 29, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It took EVERYTHING Sasuke had to defeat Deidara. Even with his elemental advantage,



No it didn't. Did you see him bring out Manda for during the fight or only during the escape? Did you Sasuke even attempt to use Kirin? Sasuke tried quite a bit but he didn't give everything to beat him.



> Sasuke was on his last legs fighting Deidara and had to access Orochimaru's chakra to pull the Great Snake Escape since he couldn't escape himself.



Can you show me where this is stated? From what I remember Sasuke used his own chakra(no CS was active or anything) when he summoned Manda.



> Chidori Eiso would bounce off the Clam's shell like nothing. Its not until EMS it gets some decent cutting feats.



What? Can you show anything from the clam that would suggest it Chidori Eiso won't cut it easily?



> Kirin? Dude, that technique takes too much prep. Its completely useless in a battledome battle for Hebi Sasuke due to how it works.



Actually you're wrong.



> Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique (火遁・豪龍火の術, Katon: Gouryuuka no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, Supplementary, All ranges
> User: Uchiha Sasuke
> 
> ...



Apparently Sasuke using this Katon is enough to start getting clouds to appear for Kirin and him firing Katons into the air isn't gonna take a long process aka prep, like you said. 






> Not to mention he defeated Joki Boi on his own even though Mu couldn't.



Do you have proof of this in any way? Last time I checked all we know is that they both killed each other but not what they used as the final blows or anything.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, quite a bit so. Gaara at full power could handle a superior version of Sasuke and forced him to retreat to get Danzo.


Gaara has problems with speedsters as he showed againts Joki Boy.

Sasuke at this stage relies more on power than speed once he gained the MS and even then, he was using it since he already had Susanoo out and Amaterasu from Ei.

Gaara is better suited from these types of attacks rather than cutting attacks, like what Hebi Sasuke used. This was demonstrated when Shukaku Gaara in Part 1 could easily deal with Katons yet was screaming in pain from Chidori.

Gaara was lucky Sasuke didn't have the arrows yet or else he would have being defeated as well.




> It took EVERYTHING Sasuke had to defeat Deidara. Even with his elemental advantage, Sasuke was on his last legs fighting Deidara and had to access Orochimaru's chakra to pull the Great Snake Escape since he couldn't escape himself.


Indeed it did, except for Kirin.

He told Deidara if his Raiton advantage wouldn't have worked he had a plan B.




> Deidara had to use Sunagakure against Gaara to beat him. If Gaara decided to sacrifice the village,* he would have won*.



You have no proof for the bolded except for your opinion on that.

Deidara certainly had that advantage and used it, but how about Gaara's advantage of Deidara not being allowed to kill him? Otherwise, he could have used C4. Heck, Deidara even had little clay with him at the time.



> Wrong. The Sharingan makes it easier to _recognize_ genjutsu, but doesn't automatically break him out. Given that _thousands of sensors couldn't find a way to break it_, Sasuke would likely be unable to due to how the genjutsu works. Its a battlefield wide, NOT personal genjutsu.


If it makes it easier to recognize Genjutsu then it will come in handy alot wouldn't it?

I mean, you said it yourself. From there, its just a matter of dispelling it.

And don't put the army fodder chuunin levels on Sasuke's level, who on top of that has the Sharingan.

If Sasuke was able to break Itachi's Genjutsus, who is supposed to be a pro at Genjutsu, I'm sure he can do the same with the Mizukage.

Sasuke also has the Curse seal, later revealed a form of Senjutsu, which can make his Kai that much stronger.


> Chidori Eiso would bounce off the Clam's shell like nothing. Its not until EMS it gets some decent cutting feats.


I was just naming an example. If you don't think Chidori Eisou can break the clam then have Manda, Kirin, or whatever other jutsu you please in it's place.



> The Mizukage would troll Sasuke incredibly easily. Kirin? Dude, that technique takes too much prep. Its completely useless in a battledome battle for Hebi Sasuke due to how it works.



Wasn't Sasuke gonna use it in Part 2 start againts Team 7?

Why would it be that hard to pull off?

I mean, if it was, why even have it? I think you're understimating it.

I mean, if Sasuke had a plan B, which most likely was Kirin, and he thought he could use it againts Deidara, someone who was spamming bombs all over the battle field, why can't he againts the Mizukage?

And besides, Gaara was assisted fully by the Mizukage and Onoki If you give both these stipulations for Sasuke, he'd also surely win.



> Gaara was stalling for time to protect the rest of the division, KyuubiYondaime. He was trying to find the clam (which he did), and he has a few techniques to deal with it without Onoki's help.



You mentioned Sasuke doesn't have a technique to deal with the clam, but then say Gaara can, without mentioning a technique in specific, when Onoki was the one who actually did it?

And yes, Gaara dealt with Joki boy with the help from his father's gold sand.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 29, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Sasuke decifered Deidara's fighting style to the pefection without any knowledge.
> 
> He developed a counter to both Ei, Danzou, etc.
> 
> ...



You aren't getting it. The Mizukage will destroy Hebi Sasuke bloodlusted.

Ohnoki didn't light his sand to make it stronger dude. Im talking about the actual fight. 
Give me proof of step by step. 

Hebi Sasuke was stone cold about to die. As I said before Raiton is Dotons weakness so that's also another reason. What aren't you getting?

Mizukage >>>> Hebi Sasuke
Mizukage >>>> Deidara


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 29, 2014)

Bonly said:


> No it didn't. Did you see him bring out Manda for during the fight or only during the escape? Did you Sasuke even attempt to use Kirin? Sasuke tried quite a bit but he didn't give everything to beat him.


Kirin was of no use due to how the battle went, Bonly. Sasuke was barely able to stand and was panting after using a simple Nagashi. It took literally everything Sasuke had to defeat Deidara.




> Can you show me where this is stated? From what I remember Sasuke used his own chakra(no CS was active or anything) when he summoned Manda.


Explicitly stated that Sasuke was out of chakra here. He had to access Orochimaru's chakra to get Manda summoned since those reserves were fresh.




> What? Can you show anything from the clam that would suggest it Chidori Eiso won't cut it easily?


Until it got to EMS, Chidori Eiso lacked any feats to suggest it can cut the clam. It was even said to be weaker than Chidori in terms of piercing and cutting too.




> Actually you're wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently Sasuke using this Katon is enough to start getting clouds to appear for Kirin and him firing Katons into the air isn't gonna take a long process aka prep, like you said.


Question: outside of a manga scenario, why would anyone LET Sasuke do such a thing? The Katons would easily be countered, Sasuke wouldn't be able to get them off, etc. Not to mention without Amaterasu, Kirin would be a lot weaker without its heat.







> Do you have proof of this in any way? Last time I checked all we know is that they both killed each other but not what they used as the final blows or anything.


Yes. Onoki explicitly says that Mu was unable to figure out how to defeat it.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

And like Bonly said, Sasuke summoned Manda with his own chakra.

As Bonly showed, Kirin only takes regular Katons for its use, it wouldn't take Sasuke much at all to fire these and wait for Kirin to be formed.

Deidara doesn't have a Sharingan to tell if Sasuke is out of chakra or not, he was just speaking without knowing. How could he know Sasuke's chakra reserves?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 29, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Gaara has problems with speedsters as he showed againts Joki Boy.


Gaara could block Amaterasu and Enton three times over and countered A's speed with his sand while saving Sasuke.


> Sasuke at this stage relies more on power than speed once he gained the MS and even then, he was using it since he already had Susanoo out and Amaterasu from Ei.


And Sasuke was still superior than Hebi Sasuke then, due to having Susano'o and Amaterasu.


> Gaara is better suited from these types of attacks rather than cutting attacks, like what Hebi Sasuke used. This was demonstrated when Shukaku Gaara in Part 1 could easily deal with Katons yet was screaming in pain from Chidori.


Gaara could block A's Raiton enhanced strikes in Part II, which means there's no weakness to chidori anymore.


> Gaara was lucky Sasuke didn't have the arrows yet or else he would have being defeated as well.


Arrows that a TREE could block and redirect? Gaara's sand could block Full-Bodied Susano'o blades from fucking Madara, yet Sasuke's weak ass arrows will pierce his sand?




> Indeed it did, except for Kirin.
> 
> He told Deidara if his Raiton advantage wouldn't have worked he had a plan B.


Sasuke was out of chakra at that point. He couldn't PREP Kirin at all (unable to form the clouds needed for it).





> You have no proof for the bolded except for your opinion on that.
> 
> Deidara certainly had that advantage and used it, but how about Gaara's advantage of Deidara not being allowed to kill him? Otherwise, he could have used C4. Heck, Deidara even had little clay with him at the time.


Its a widely accepted opinion. Deidara had lost an arm and had to hold Sunagakure hostage so he could get through Gaara's sand dome. Even Deidara himself said he had to use Sunagakure against Gaara to win. And that was a weaker version of Gaara too.

[quote\If it makes it easier to recognize Genjutsu then it will come in handy alot wouldn't it?

I mean, you said it yourself. From there, its just a matter of dispelling it.[/quote]
Though from what we seen, it isn't a normal genjutsu. People were unable to break it, thousands of shinobi weren't.


> And don't put the army fodder chuunin levels on Sasuke's level, who on top of that has the Sharingan.


Everyone in the army had to be Jonin level or above or else they would be slaughtered. Sasuke can't break the genjutsu.


> If Sasuke was able to break Itachi's Genjutsus, who is supposed to be a pro at Genjutsu, I'm sure he can do the same with the Mizukage.


Itachi's genjutsu and the Nidaime's Genjutsu _operate differently._ Itachi's genjutsu works on a single person, thus making it easier to break. Nidaime's? Affects the ENTIRE BATTLEFIELD.

Hell, given how we saw MIST being used...remember this fact? The Kirigakure technique was used to blind the sharingan, the Mizukage can make it into a genjutsu.


> Sasuke also has the Curse seal, later revealed a form of Senjutsu, which can make his Kai that much stronger.


The only way to break the genjutsu is to either destroy the clam or make it retreat. The clam constantly puts out a virtual cloud of chakra. The Sharingan would be blinded for the same reason why the Kirigakure no Jutsu blinds it.


> I was just naming an example. If you don't think Chidori Eisou can break the clam then have Manda, Kirin, or whatever other jutsu you please in it's place.


Manda would be unable to find the Clam due to the mirage. Kirin wouldn't be able to be pulled off. 




> Wasn't Sasuke gonna use it in Part 2 start againts Team 7?


When Kirin's mechanics were revealed, that was discounted as another technique.


> Why would it be that hard to pull off?


Since:


He'd have to heat up the atmosphere
Shape Kirin
Drop it

If it took five of his Goryuka no Jutsu to heat up the atmosphere even with Amaterasu burning an entire forest's help, it would take four times as much to get the same effect. While trying to get Kirin off, he'll be constantly attacked.


> I mean, if it was, why even have it? I think you're understimating it.


Kirin is Sasuke's ultimate counter against Itachi since he was counting on Amaterasu into cutting down the prep time. Once Amaterasu was used if you recall, he began to do the final preparations for Kirin.


> I mean, if Sasuke had a plan B, which most likely was Kirin, and he thought he could use it againts Deidara, someone who was spamming bombs all over the battle field, why can't he againts the Mizukage?


Sasuke couldn't even get Kirin PREPPED against Deidara, how can you claim it was his plan B? You are stipulating he was going to use it against Deidara when he was probably going to try to use genjutsu interrogation.


> And besides, Gaara was assisted fully by the Mizukage and Onoki If you give both these stipulations for Sasuke, he'd also surely win.


Actually, the Mizukage shut up about his powers to Gaara under the reasoning that if Gaara couldn't defeat him, he couldn't handle the bigger bads of Akatsuki. Onoki provided absolutely no help against Joki Boi. 




> You mentioned Sasuke doesn't have a technique to deal with the clam, but then say Gaara can, without mentioning a technique in specific, when Onoki was the one who actually did it?


Gaara can since he can just have the ground grab and then crush the clam if he chose to, but he was more focused in defending the army hence why he let Onoki do it.


> And yes, Gaara dealt with Joki boy with the help from his father's gold sand.


You do know that means Gaara has the Gold Dust incorporated into his own sand now?



KyuubiYondaime said:


> And like Bonly said, Sasuke summoned Manda with his own chakra.


Manga says Sasuke was out of chakra. Bonly couldn't recall.


> As Bonly showed, Kirin only takes regular Katons for its use, it wouldn't take Sasuke much at all to fire these and wait for Kirin to be formed.


Kirin was only formed originally after five Goryuka's and _an entire forest lit on fire by Amaterasu._ Cut the latter out of the picture, it'd take a lot more than just five Goryuka's to get Kirin prepped.


> Deidara doesn't have a Sharingan to tell if Sasuke is out of chakra or not, he was just speaking without knowing. How could he know Sasuke's chakra reserves?


Since Sasuke collapsed and his Sharingan turned off?


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## Bonly (Jul 29, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kirin was of no use due to how the battle went, Bonly. Sasuke was barely able to stand and was panting after using a simple Nagashi. It took literally everything Sasuke had to defeat Deidara.


 
So you agree he never attempted to use Kirin nor summon Manda for attacking? So pretty much he didn't try *EVERYTHING * to win, like you claimed. Ok then



> Explicitly stated that Sasuke was out of chakra here. He had to access Orochimaru's chakra to get Manda summoned since those reserves were fresh.



Does Deidara have a Sharingan to see chakra? No, best he could do was guess that Sasuke was out of chakra but seeing as how he still had his Sharingan up for a little bit before he turned it off, it seems as if he wasn't out of chakra like Deidara claimed. That means Deidara doesn't know the full capacity of Sasuke's chakra



> Until it got to EMS, Chidori Eiso lacked any feats to suggest it can cut the clam. It was even said to be weaker than Chidori in terms of piercing and cutting too.



You failed to answer my question. I asked you what did the clam do to suggest it won't get cut since last time I checked it showed nothing to suggest otherwise. So again can you show me what the clam has shown defensive wise against cutting attacks to suggest it won't get cut up?



> Question: outside of a manga scenario, why would anyone LET Sasuke do such a thing?



Why would anyone let Gaara grind up sand outside a manga scenario? Would you suggest he can't do such? Why would anyone let Nagato use CT outside of a manga scenario? Would you suggest he can't do such? Do I need to go on?

No one has to let Sasuke do anything but that doesn't mean he still can't set it up against some people.



> The Katons would easily be countered,Sasuke wouldn't be able to get them off, etc.



He shoots the Katon into the sky. Not everyone has range jutsu to stop it nor a jutsu they can guide after they shoot to try and stop it(if it's strong enough to stop it) nor would a shitload of people actually try to stop it since only a handful of people know about Kirin meaning they would think he's stupidly wasting chakra. Their first thoughts won't be "oh shit he's randomly shooting a Katon in the air, let me stop them from reaching to high because long hair don't care". Please SSM lets not BS this.



> Not to mention without Amaterasu, Kirin would be a lot weaker without its heat.



Welp glad you agree on that matter.



> Yes. Onoki explicitly says that Mu was unable to figure out how to defeat it.



Can ya show me the scan?


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Gaara could block Amaterasu and Enton three times over and countered A's speed with his sand while saving Sasuke.


Yet wouldn't have being able to beat Joki boy without his father's sand.



> And Sasuke was still superior than Hebi Sasuke then, due to having Susano'o and Amaterasu.


ABC logic doesn't work. I was saying Sasuke in the Raikage fight was stronger than Hebi Sasuke, yet would still probably fair worst againts Gaara until he got stronger with the MS like when he fought Danzou.



> Arrows that a TREE could block and redirect? Gaara's sand could block Full-Bodied Susano'o blades from fucking Madara, yet Sasuke's weak ass arrows will pierce his sand?


That simple tree as you call it is Mokuton, one of the most hax jutsu of this manga, and the signature trademark jutsu of Hashirama, the God of Shinobi.



> Sasuke was out of chakra at that point. He couldn't PREP Kirin at all (unable to form the clouds needed for it).


I repeat, *Deidara stating Sasuke was out of chakra doesn't mean he actually was. Deidara doesn't have a Sharingan.*

Naruto looked down for tons of times in this final battle before eve Madara arrived and yet he kept pulling chakra out of his ass, despite lending so much chakra to everyone, making 13 clones, and he's being fighting for ages now, over 100 chapters and still has chakra.
*
If Sasuke had used Orochimaru's chakra or tried to force more chakra out, Orochimaru would have taken the opportunity to come out, like he actually did againts Itachi, when Sasuke was actually REALLY out of chakra.*



> Its a widely accepted opinion. Deidara had lost an arm and had to hold Sunagakure hostage so he could get through Gaara's sand dome. Even Deidara himself said he had to use Sunagakure against Gaara to win. And that was a weaker version of Gaara too.


Deidara also had cons in that fight, like Gaara having so much sand available to him, which is something he normally doesn't have, bringing little clay with him, and not being able to kill Gaara, hence not using C3 againts Gaara himself, or C4. I've repeated this about 3 times and you don't understand both had stipulations that hindered them in that fight.

Is like saying Sasuke captured Bee using the bear as a way to do so, yet Sasuke was stll hindered from not being able to attack with bloodlust cause he couldn't kill him. Just to name an example.



> Everyone in the army had to be Jonin level or above or else they would be slaughtered. Sasuke can't break the genjutsu.


So here you are just making baseless claims.

You assume this:

1. The fodders are Jounin level (without any proof)
2. Sasuke can't break it

Let me tell you. Sasuke is the reincarnation of Indra. The heir of the Uchiha clan. Someone whose potential could surpass Madara apparently. He has the Sharingan AND Curse seal to enhance his chakra ten fold, and someone he can't break it?

Then how does, anyone break it for that matter?

Sorry, but I wasn't aware this was Tsukuyomi.

Sasuke broke the Genjutsu of Itachi, the most advance Genjutsu user in the Manga. So no.



> Itachi's genjutsu and the Nidaime's Genjutsu _operate differently._ Itachi's genjutsu works on a single person, thus making it easier to break. Nidaime's? Affects the ENTIRE BATTLEFIELD.


The genjutsu affecting multiple targets has absolutely no barring on how difficult it is to break it. And Sasuke is just one person, so even if it could affect more people, I don't see how that matters.

Hell, I don't see how any of this matters since Gaara had tons of help to break the Genjutsu from both Onoki and the Mizukage himself, and if Sasuke had these same stipulations as Gaara, he'd have breaken it as well, showing what I said that Hebi Sasuke is on Gaara's level.





> Kirin wouldn't be able to be pulled off.


Another baseless claim. He could apparently pull it off againts Deidara and not the Mizukage?

What if the Mizukage was not bloodlusted like he wasn't againts Gaara? Could he pull it off then?



> Actually, the Mizukage shut up about his powers to Gaara under the reasoning that if Gaara couldn't defeat him, he couldn't handle the bigger bads of Akatsuki. Onoki provided absolutely no help against Joki Boi.


That was only AFTER he had helped Gaara to get rid of his Genjutsu and Onoki had helped him as well.

And he sealed Joki Boy using his dad's sand, which wouldn't be there under normal circumstances.

Oh and Gaara was fighting on a dessert, which also normally doesn't happen.



> Since Sasuke collapsed and his Sharingan turned off?


Conserving chakra due to thinking Deidara was through isn't the same as not having any more chakra left.


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