# Tobirama vs Minato.



## Android (May 3, 2017)

Hasn't been made in a bit, so let's see if anything changed .

OP :
* Manga knowledge up to chapter 645.
* 40 meters distance.
* Both are alive, so Minato isn't a Jinchuuriki.
* Tobirama has 2 fodder ET to use GKF. Minato has his Kunais scattered around the field.
How does it go ?


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## Troyse22 (May 3, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Hasn't been made in a bit, so let's see if anything changed .
> 
> OP :
> * Manga knowledge up to chapter 645.
> ...




Both spam Hiraishin till Minato runs out of chakra.
Tobirama tags him and uses infinite tags.

Tobirama curbs this kid, high diff


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## Trojan (May 3, 2017)

Have been done to death and beyond. 

Minato solos mid difficult at most.


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## Android (May 3, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Have been done to death and beyond.


Really ? i never knew 


Hussain said:


> Minato solos mid difficult at most.


How ? explain


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## The_Conqueror (May 3, 2017)

Comes down to which one of them is faster to land attacks
Base speed Minato>Tobirama
Hiraishin usage:Minato>Tobirama
Area domination:Minato>Tobirama
Reaction:Minato≥Tobirama
S/T barrier>Water wall
Summons/Sealing jutsus>Weak edos
Sealess Odama Rasengan>Water style

Minato has the advantage and is more likely to be the one who lands hit first​

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ARGUS (May 3, 2017)

Superior reactions and striking speed mean that in a clash Tobirama comes out as the winner. 

Any advantage that Minato has over Tobirama such as faster shunshin or more markings is null and void in this battle 


Been done to death. Nothing has changed 

Tobirama beats him, 
Mid diff since he has the Edos as well

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Kyu (May 3, 2017)

*Tobirama*

*- *Primitive FTG
*+* More Combat Experience
*- *Slower Movement Speed (traveling from point a->point b/shunshin no jutsu)
*+* Unprecedented Suiton Proficiency
*+ *Edo Tensei/Endless Explosive Tags

________________________________

*~ *Comparable Intelligence
*~ *Comparable Stamina (Minato meets senjutsu requirement/Tobirama's exceptionally strong lineage)
*~ *Comparable Reaction Time
________________________________

*Minato

+ *Perfected FTG
*- *Less Combat Experience
*+ *Superior Movement Speed (traveling from point a->point b/shunshin no jutsu)
*+ *More Dangerous Melee Attacks
*+ *Master at Fūinjutsu
*+* Boss Summons (Ma, Pa, and GamaTrio)
*+ *Sage Mode


Despite never reaching his prime, Minato has more going for him, he'll win.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (May 3, 2017)

Whoever lands the first touch thus marking the other would win imo and since Minato's better when it comes to speed, I'd favor Minato to win


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## Android (May 3, 2017)

Why do people think that Minato's Hiraishin being superior to Tobirama's effects the actual outcomes of this battle ? 
Minato's Hiraishin is superior simply because of how he expanded on it.
Minato has S/T barrier that isn't gonna help much in this battle.
Minato can port around more people that Tobirama, that doesn't give him more of an advantage in this battle.
Minato has marked Kunais, Tobirama can mark Kunais and weapons as well.
Their Hiraishin is the same when it comes to speed. It's instant.
So i don't see where's the advantage that Minato has over Tobirama in terms of Hiraishin usage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Azula (May 3, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Why do people think that Minato's Hiraishin being superior to Tobirama's effects the actual outcomes of this battle ?



Kishi should have put more effort into war arc  but we can still try to infer few things.

A clone Hiraishin is apparently slower, whatever that means, probably not as quick to activate the jutsu. So there can still be a difference as far as time in considered. The bodyguards can use Hiraishin too but cannot use it successively, its a one time for them.

Tobirama obviously uses more but (i) him not carrying a lot of kunais, (ii) Madara saying he waits to back-stab people and (iii) him not getting any moniker just a fastest title all points to him using Hiraishin sparingly and being opportunistic with it's use unlike Minato who just straight up bombards it on people.

So the gap will widen with each Hiraishin usage into the match and Minato is just the person to exploit the smallest openings/differences.

The paper bomb combo is not nearly to be a problem, edos get sealed.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 3, 2017)

*Minato's Advantages*

Minato's FTG > Tobirama's FTG, he has significantly more markers than Tobirama does to enable him to easily control the battlefield. He can use Guiding Thunder to send any of Tobirama's mid or long-ranged Water Release techniques away to another marker too. Tobirama on-panel admitted his FTG was inferior as well, it's been shown to be inferior to Minato's usage, and Jin no Sho reinforces it in basically every entry on Minato's FTG techniques. 
Minato's BF > Tobirama's BF, Minato has been shown to be faster even without FTG, so that will help Minato greatly here and will make it easier for him to reach Tobirama and put him down by slitting his throat or ramming a Rasengan into him. Tobirama on-panel admitted his BF was slower and he got there after Minato had already done a lot, so it's been stated and shown. 
Minato's Shadow Clones cancel out Tobirama's Shadow Clones, as they can both use them for the same purposes (mobile FTG markers). But Minato's should be superior to Tobirama's in terms of what matters (speed), as Minato is superior to Tobirama in that regard. 
Minato is a perfect Sage, so his chakra reserves are larger than Tobirama's own. Tobirama doesn't have any noteworthy hype or feats revolving around his chakra reserves. Him being a Senju doesn't automatically mean his are superior, Tsuande is a Senju and Uzumaki, yet, her reserves are inferior to that of Jiraiya's. Tobirama having fought alongside Hashirama and the Senju Clan against Madara and the Uchiha Clan for a full day doesn't prove his reserves are larger either, as the fight is off-panel and we don't know exactly what Tobirama did and how much chakra he expended or how useful he was in Hashirama and Madara's fight. So if it came down to a battle of stamina, Minato would outlast Tobirama.
Minato's Uzumaki fuinjutsu that he learned from Kushina could be used to seal away the Edo Tensei here, if a bunch of random fodder with a unspecified sealing technique could seal them away so easily Minato undoubtedly can. He could also use the Contract Seal to force Tobirama to lose control of his Edo Tensei.

Minato could summon Gamabunta to assist him too if necessary, although I doubt he'd summon him against a human-sized target so I won't go into that. I don't see Minato resorting to Sage Mode here either, it's too OOC for him to use in this situation. 
*Tobirama's Advantages*

Tobirama grew up in the Warring States Period, so his entire life was filled with constant life-or-death battles since he was a child. So he has superior battle experience which was pointed out as being relevant in Chiyo & Sakura vs Sasori, and the Five Kage vs Madara. So since he's been in many different type of situations, he knows how to deal with disadvantageous scenarios better. 
Tobirama is more intelligent and analytical than Minato, as seen when he deciphered that TTJ Obito couldn't negate Senjutsu whilst he could negate everything else. Something Minato didn't notice despite him also being a Senjutsu user. 
Tobirama is a superior sensor type when compared to Minato, he's shown the ability to determine one's lineage from their chakra alone. Minato hasn't shown such an ability, so Tobirama is a bit superior in this regard.
*Conclusion*
I'd go with Minato more times than not, he has too many advantages over Tobirama in what matters most. This is also excluding the fact that, Minato is portrayed as the stronger of the two.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (May 3, 2017)

I've always viewed this as one of the closest battles in the manga. Though I'd side with Tobirama as his superior reactions slightly give him the edge.


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## Android (May 3, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I've always viewed this as one of the closest battles in the manga. Though I'd side with Tobirama as his superior reactions slightly give him the edge.


I agree, people think Minato would have an easy time, but Tobirama has proved on panel that he :
* Is extremely intelligenet.
* Has fast reactions enough to read the movement of and physically mark JJ Obito who rushed him from a very close distance.
* His firepower thanks to GKF completely dwarfed Hashirama's gates which dwarfs Bijuu and that's just from one ET body.
Tobirama is a monster, tho i'd side with Minato due to portrayal .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (May 3, 2017)

Tobirama's superior reactions give him the win imo, I'd say Minato has the superior feats and hype overall. Tobirama reacted to Juubito and even intercepted a TSB before KCM Minato could even move his arm. 
Both are exteremly smart

Both have knowledge on the other

There both clearly gonna tag each other in CQC, Hirshian being more dependant on reactions would ultimately lead Tobirama to be the victor that and 

aoe>FTG Gojo oneshots if it lands

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## sabre320 (May 3, 2017)

*Letslook at tobiramas best claim to fame in his reactions* tobirama managed to land touches in exchange for getting obliterated...and whats conveniently ignored is the fact that this was *mindless juubito he made no attempts to defend himself from any attacks or touches he was not even able to speak did not dodge hashiramas gates even though his speed should allow him to casually dodge it..*
he was essentially going berserk...so much so he was attacking himself.*.he was able to be caught by base hashis casual mokuton!!! 
Link removed
base hashi clone binded juubito with mokuton while half destroyed..you wanna claim base hashiramas casual mokuton is faster then minato too* inconsistencies huh......he was not some reflexive monster he was barely conscious...
*he could have easily broken hashiramas branches like he demolished the sage gates...but he took time forming coherent thoughts...juubito taking so much time to react as to get caught by mokuton branches and watch tags flying towards him while tobirama is talking...and still cant break free*...
huh.. Link removed
though he was dangerous..when *he decided to attack he used his speed with killing intent..even old hiruzen was able to dodge a straight blitz here*..
Link removed Wanna claim hiruzen has superior reactions to tobirama he wasnt missing half his body...

Tobirama managed to get a tag on juubito while he was out of control and mindless and was obliterated in the process......minatos managed to put a marker hundreds of miles away in the sea put markers around the juubi teleported the juubidama all while no one could register his presence while tobirama while doing none of these feats still arrived much later while making a beeline to the battlefield......
t*obirama did a surprise ftg attack on sm madara from behind and was outclassed in cqc.*..this is the same madara who got first blood drawn in cqc by an inexperienced ems sasuke....tobirama used ftg to position himself in blindspots avoiding doujutsu precog and still could not manage to land one touch...
BM Naruto with his avatar outright blitzed him and his v4 sussano ala tobiramas ftg attempt *So which is it does sm madara possess far superior reactions to juubito? and his sensing surpasses sage path senjutsu?
.*

Now lets get into edo summons they can be countered contract seal or sealed after their explosions which minato can outrun with shunshin like incanon now lets look to minatos summons ma and pa which can get onto minatos shoulders to provide massive support prep sage energy for him and prep frogsong.Minato can prep sage mode for one clinical cqc clash to beat tobirama decisively in reactionary hits or he can take the safer option and prep frog song,while minato is evading tobirama cant hope to touch him while the battlefield is littered with markers and clones, once frog song is done minato can teleport next to tobirama and use it tobirama has no defense and the sound shuts off the users mind preventing ftg.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 3, 2017)

Tobirama's reflexes/reactions are not better than Minato's, he has already proven he is much slower than base Minato. What sense does it make that he is faster than NTCM Minato all of a sudden? Tobirama only did that because it was an off-panel interception: which have been shown to be inconsistent before. For example, Haku intercepting Kakashi's Raikiri aimed at Zabuza. Rock Lee intercepting Team Dosu when they were about to kill Sakura, with them having no reaction but getting sent flying. Despite Dosu later on being capable of keeping up with and not getting completely blitzed by Lee. Guy intercepting Kisame from off-panel with Kisame having no reaction despite Kisame later on being able to react to base Guy (which although was highlighted in To no Sho, is still an inconsistent feat). Tsuande getting blitzed by Manda when fighting him herself, but is fast enough to intercept his attack on Gamabunta and Jiraiya before Manda can do anything. This situation is no different, if you take that as seriously as any other feat you'll end up with crazy conclusions like Tobirama being to able to move from being completely off-panel to grab a TSB before NTCM Minato can do anything despite base Minato showing he was way way faster than Tobirama only several chapters earlier. There's also the fact that his feat against TTJ Obito was only able to be initiated because he was Edo Tensei, if he was alive he would've died in exchange for doing that. So I don't see how any of this is an example that Tobirama has better reflexes or speed in any regard.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 2


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## StandingMan (May 4, 2017)

Really this is a coin flip, but as much as I love Minato I have to give Tobirama the win at high difficulty.

He has more combat experience even if he is just a bit slower and combat experience makes the difference here.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

LightningBlader said:


> Really this is a coin flip, but as much as I love Minato I have to give Tobirama the win at high difficulty.
> 
> He has more combat experience even if he is just a bit slower and combat experience makes the difference here.


Except minato has access to summons with hundreds of years of experience in ma and pa with sage mode and frog song which tobirama has no counter for.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Why do people think that Minato's Hiraishin being superior to Tobirama's effects the actual outcomes of this battle ?
> Minato's Hiraishin is superior simply because of how he expanded on it.
> Minato has S/T barrier that isn't gonna help much in this battle.
> Minato can port around more people that Tobirama, that doesn't give him more of an advantage in this battle.
> ...


minato spams markers while tobirama utlizes a kunai but dosent specialize in spamming markers around the battlefield limiting mobility and minatos shunshin allows far superior mobility to pressure tobirama along with his ftg v2 etc but the reason minato wins is listed in my comprehensive post below this one.


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## Veracity (May 4, 2017)

The excuses I'm seeing for Tobirama not being more reflexive than Minato are kinda just bad... I'm tired of seeing the but " Tobirama was an Edo" or but" Juubito was mindless" argument. They are poor arguments that have been dismantled before multiple times. Juubito being an edo doesn't take away from his speed and that speed surpasses KCM Narutos greatest flicker as all the Kage were in awe of his speed and couldn't even properly move. Tobirama being ripped apart just proves that he couldn't tag Obito and use FTG without being tagged which isn't bad because Base Minato would have been punched in half with zero reactions. Tobirama being able to tag Juubito not once, not twice, but 5 times after being hit is impressive. It also means that he could have used FTG to avoid the attack all together but decided to use the benefits of Edo to catch JJ Obito off guard which has been stated to be a tactic he regularly uses. How do I know he could have used FTG to just avoid the attack? Because he was able to tag Juubito 5 times before the man even escaped the AoE of his arms. So unless you believe Tobirama was blitzed at 10m, completey ripped in half, and then magically gained the reactions to tag Juubito 5 times then you have to admit that he reacted to the flicker from the start. Which places his reactions above Base Minato as he wouldn't even be able to react to KCM Narutos top flicker, let alone JJ Obito.

I mean shit, give Tobirama some respect and stop wanking Minato. His flicker is superior to Tobirama but that doesn't mean his reactions and handspeed are. Same way Gai punches way faster than Ay but travels slower.


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## ARGUS (May 4, 2017)

Superior body flicker giving someone an advantage in taijutsu is perhaps the dumbest argument one could bring 

Especially when the same fanboys sure as hell love to claim that Minato beats Ay in CQC despite the latters shunshin being tiers above Minatos 

Bm narutos shunshin >>> edo madaras 
Guess who raped who in taijutsu 

Clearly this logic doesn't work, 
Beating someone in close quarters is up to reflexes, striking speed, physical strength and skill 

Tobirmaa is above Minato in atleast 3 of them, and that is by a significant margin


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Bm narutos shunshin >>> edo madaras
> Guess who raped who in taijutsu


No one, they never had a Taijutsu exchange.
A better example would be KCM Naruto vs Tobi.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> he could have used FTG to avoid the attack all together but decided to use the benefits of Edo to catch JJ Obito off guard


Even if he wanted to avoid JJ Obito's blitz, he had no markings on the field by that time so how is he gonna warp away exactly ?
But JJ Obito's attack allowed them to bind him and use GKF on him.


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## hbcaptain (May 4, 2017)

Reation speed : Minato > Tobirama - Tobirama's best feat is reacting to mindless Juubito at point blank, Minato's best feat is reacting to 5th step Sekizou, going by hype : Minato > Tobirama.

FTG - Manga + DB => Minato > Tobirama, besides I don't think Tobirama can react to RSCK.

ET < countract seal, Fodders can't summon tags before Minato smatches them, DB also stated this technique is hard to place.

CQC friepower - Minato > Tobirama since Rasengan > weapon.

Intelligence - Tobirama is overall smarter because he has more knowledge and is better leader but his quick thinking isn't better than Minato.

Stamina - I give it to Tobirama since Minato was impressed by his sudden chakra increase, it doesn't matter a lot tought since Minato himself has a lot of stamina and his fighting style doesn't require so much chakra.

Overall Minato wins high/extreme diff. Even tho the fight would probably end very quickly.


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## Veracity (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Even if he wanted to avoid JJ Obito's blitz, he had no markings on the field by that time so how is he gonna warp away exactly ?
> But JJ Obito's attack allowed them to bind him and use GKF on him.


You're right lol. But what matters is that Tobirama possesses the reflexes to tag Juubito while Base Minato can only marginally avoid V2 Ay.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> You're right lol. But what matters is that Tobirama possesses the reflexes to tag Juubito while Base Minato can only marginally avoid V2 Ay.


Yeah, and that's just ET Tobirama who is not functioning at full power.


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 4, 2017)

This is one of the closest and coolest fictional battle from this manga. 

ıts tough for both side. And any of them cant win against another 10/10 times. It depends thru conditions, location, knowledge, mindset etc etc.

Who is gonna win ? I  dont know it could go to either way cuz they're close to each other. But ıf someone gonna edge out the other like 6-7/times against 3-4/times that would be Minato. He is clearly superior being than Tobirama. 

Even w/o Tobirama's silly death scenario and all of his edo feats.. He is still not equal to Minato. 

Minato basically faster & quicker type .. A bit more goofy but when he get serious he is at least intelligence as Tobirama (if he is not more ) 
Minato has 3+1 execution jutsu option

rasengan variants
sealing proficiency
Shiki Fujin 
+
Gama Rinsho (not his asset but he has acces to it)

on the other Hand Tobirama only has infinite paper bomb thing. 

Finishing Skills -> Goes to Minato
Except Strength & endurance physicality also -> goes to minato.

Tobirama has more chakra & resilience thats for sure so basicaly -> durability & stamina -> goes to Tobirama

Comparable reaction skills, comparable intelligence, comparable sensory skills but with frogs and SM Minato edges out.
Comparable Bunshin usage & numbers.

Tobirama is more experienced but Minato is a bit more genşus/legend material than Tobirama.

Supportive assets & abilities ;
Minato better at shurikenjutsu
Tobirama better at Kenjutsu
Minato has boss summons & barriers
Tobirama has Suiton & imperfect ET.

Minato is less predictable and more versatile also has more option to seal the deal.. Tobirama always try to find an opportunity to lend paper bombs and thats gonna make him predictable . IM gonna go with Minato with High diff.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2017)

I'd say Tobirama. As Madara said, Edo Tensei didn't bring back Hashirama and Tobirama at their full power. Pretty much, after stomping Tobirama, Madara went on to say that there's a reason the Senju bros didn't have their full capabilities... didn't say the same about Minato.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'd say Tobirama. As Madara said, Edo Tensei didn't bring back Hashirama and Tobirama at their full power. Pretty much, after stomping Tobirama, Madara went on to say that there's a reason the Senju bros didn't have their full capabilities... didn't say the same about Minato.


Alive Minato didn't have KCM, so regardless of ET, Minato returned far stronger than when he was alive.


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## StandingMan (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Except minato has access to summons with hundreds of years of experience in ma and pa with sage mode and frog song which tobirama has no counter for.



Has canon Minato ever used sage mode outside of the Madara arc?

Forgot about his frogs, though. That actually gives Minato a big advantage.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> The excuses I'm seeing for Tobirama not being more reflexive than Minato are kinda just bad... I'm tired of seeing the but " Tobirama was an Edo" or but" Juubito was mindless" argument. They are poor arguments that have been dismantled before multiple times. Juubito being an edo doesn't take away from his speed and that speed surpasses KCM Narutos greatest flicker as all the Kage were in awe of his speed and couldn't even properly move. Tobirama being ripped apart just proves that he couldn't tag Obito and use FTG without being tagged which isn't bad because Base Minato would have been punched in half with zero reactions. Tobirama being able to tag Juubito not once, not twice, but 5 times after being hit is impressive. It also means that he could have used FTG to avoid the attack all together but decided to use the benefits of Edo to catch JJ Obito off guard which has been stated to be a tactic he regularly uses. How do I know he could have used FTG to just avoid the attack? Because he was able to tag Juubito 5 times before the man even escaped the AoE of his arms. So unless you believe Tobirama was blitzed at 10m, completey ripped in half, and then magically gained the reactions to tag Juubito 5 times then you have to admit that he reacted to the flicker from the start. Which places his reactions above Base Minato as he wouldn't even be able to react to KCM Narutos top flicker, let alone JJ Obito.
> 
> I mean shit, give Tobirama some respect and stop wanking Minato. His flicker is superior to Tobirama but that doesn't mean his reactions and handspeed are. Same way Gai punches way faster than Ay but travels slower.




Umm maybe you should actually read my post instead of accusing me of wanking not one feat i stated for minato was from out of manga i already provided evidence for my claims i do give credit to tobirama he is a strong kage but you are certainly wanking him as you claim he has reactions superior to juubito and can tag him 5 times in echange for  from juubito....try reading my reasoning instead of being triggered..

*letslook at tobiramas best claim to fame in his reactions* tobirama managed to land touches in exchange for getting obliterated...and whats conveniently ignored is the fact that this was *mindless juubito he made no attempts to defend himself from any attacks or touches he was not even able to speak did not dodge hashiramas gates even though his speed should allow him to casually dodge it..


Link removed
base hashi clone binded juubito with mokuton while half destroyed..you wanna claim base hashiramas  moubunshins casual mokuton are faster then minato too* inconsistencies huh......he was not some reflexive monster he was barely conscious...
*he could have easily broken hashiramas mokubunhin branches like he demolished the sage gates...but he took time forming coherent thoughts...juubito taking so much time to react as to get caught by mokuton branches and watch tags flying towards him while tobirama is talking...and still cant break free*...
huh.. Link removed
though he was dangerous..when *he decided to attack he used his speed with killing intent..even old hiruzen was able to dodge a straight blitz here*..
Link removed Wanna claim hiruzen has superior reactions to tobirama he wasnt missing half his body...

Next he was absolutely embarassed by sm madara who is no where near to juubito in reactions...wanna claim madara is superior to juubito in reactions now?

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> *letslook at tobiramas best claim to fame in his reactions* tobirama managed to land touches in exchange for getting obliterated...and whats conveniently ignored is the fact that this was *mindless juubito he made no attempts to defend himself from any attacks or touches he was not even able to speak did not dodge hashiramas gates even though his speed should allow him to casually dodge it..*


All of this is irrelevant, the feat is not about touching Obito or landing attacks on him, it's about _reacting to his speed_, mindless Obito may not be in control of his powers which is why his feats are all over the place, but that doesn't change the fact that Tobirama *reacted to his fastes body flicker*.
And why do you people love to bring the underlinded part w/o even grasping what happened ? yes we all know that Tobirama got half of his body obliterated by Obito, but that doesn't matter because the feat is to gauge Tobirama's reactions which allowed him to put a tag on Obito before he could hit him.
A tag that was very very useful in landing attacks on Obito later.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Next he was absolutely embarassed by sm madara who is no where near to juubito in reactions...wanna claim madara is superior to juubito in reactions now?


Umm no.
Tobirama reacted to Madara just fine when he tried to attack him with the black rods, and he had the upper hand over Madara in the last second.
Guess what ? Madara's Limbo was still roaming free at that time, and that's how he defeated Tobirama.

Don't even try to mention Madara to dwnplay Tobirama's feat, Madara would've done the same exact thing to Minato as well.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> All of this is irrelevant, the feat is not about touching Obito or landing attacks on him, it's about _reacting to his speed_, mindless Obito may not be in control of his powers which is why his feats are all over the place, but that doesn't change the fact that Tobirama *reacted to his fastes body flicker*.
> And why do you people love to bring the underlinded part w/o even grasping what happened ? yes we all know that Tobirama got half of his body obliterated by Obito, but that doesn't matter because the feat is to gauge Tobirama's reactions which allowed him to put a tag on Obito before he could hit him.
> A tag that was very very useful in landing attacks on Obito later.


Why are u ignoring that the same juubito was tagged by a mokubunshin and binded by basic mokuton.....him touching juubito isnt a miraculous feat because juubito made no attempt to counter....
Next hiruzen dealt with the same speed and managed to dodge a killing blow....
*e decided to attack he used his speed with killing intent..even old hiruzen was able to dodge a straight blitz here*..
Link removed Wanna claim hiruzen has superior reactions to tobirama he wasnt missing half his body...

Its a good feat but to claim it as a feat and rallying it as evidence for tobiramas superiority in reactions is what im against.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Alive Minato didn't have KCM, so regardless of ET, Minato returned far stronger than when he was alive.



Whereas Tobirama was revived weaker.


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Madara's Limbo was still roaming free at that time, and that's how he defeated Tobirama.


ıs there a feat for that ? I mean using limbo ? I dont jugde ı just aint remember it.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Umm no.
> Tobirama reacted to Madara just fine when he tried to attack him with the black rods, and he had the upper hand over Madara in the last second.
> Guess what ? Madara's Limbo was still roaming free at that time, and that's how he defeated Tobirama.
> 
> Don't even try to mention Madara to dwnplay Tobirama's feat, Madara would've done the same exact thing to Minato as well.


HUh thats funny madaras casually reacted to tobiramas surprise ftg attack from his blindspot with ease and u claim tobirama had the upperhand ..... What we saw in the fight was tobirama being casually countered even with ftg to the point he had to warp constantly to attempt to compete his reactions and physical speed were clearly much slower and thus nowhere near even mindless juubito so  claiming him to be be to tag juubito mutiple times in exchange as a means of consistent reflex level is a fallacy as it portrays sm madara above v1 juubito.

Interesting thing without limbo sm madara wasnt able to blitz or outclass ems sasuke efficiently even when he was inexperienced what we saw was ems sasuke outperforming tobirama in cqc against the same opponent even when he was inexperienced with ems...plz dont say madara would have done the same to minato without any evidence plz...minatos high end reaction feat is reacting to a kunai throw mid 5th step sekizo grabbing the kunai with his mouth letting the guodama touch him and then teleport before even gai had moved forward...this is when he shouted at gai too keep going at speed no matter what...the only time he is physically outdone in reactions and speed is against perfected juubi jinchurikis.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Whereas Tobirama was revived weaker.


All the hokages were revived at the same level relative to their bases orochimaru didnt plan top specifically make tobirama  weaker ...madara made note of tobiramas case because he was directly engaged in a fight with him.


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 4, 2017)

The people who try to imply ET Tobirama is revived much more weaker than ET Minato.

If you're gonna take this manga serious as all.. Then ı can say actaully Tobirama revived much stronger.

Tobirama retconned. So he dont need to get any more powerfull he already gain his p-up.

That dude die against 20 elite jonin at his prime when he had 1 kage level and 5 jonin level support !!! 

Look dont get me wrong ım not buying that thing ım not gonna try to use..

BUt saying "Tobirama was the weaker side but still keep up with Minato" aint gonna make your argument better or wiser.. 

Cuz Tobirama was the worst one in 4 hokage and Kishimoto needs to sell his power lecel to audience.. So thats why Minato played support role (against juubito and against juudara) and nerfed (losing arms never able to display his new jutsu that he mentioned) and Tobirama shined. 

So saying "Tobirama was weaker" its funny cuz his Alive version aint better than his edo version due to how he died ?! 

So ı think dont even bring edo/alive differences to the table.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> All the hokages were revived at the same level relative to their bases orochimaru didnt plan top specifically make tobirama  weaker ...madara made note of tobiramas case because he was directly engaged in a fight with him.



Madara said Hashirama and Tobirama were revived weaker.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara said Hashirama and Tobirama were revived weaker.


Because he had fought with them before and knew of their past performance also he was directly fighting against them making it reasonable for him to draw a comparsion....why would he make a comment on minato or hiruzen when he didnt even fight them in his past didnt know their past performance and wasnt engaging them currently.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Why are u ignoring that the same juubito was tagged by a mokubunshin and binded by basic mokuton.....him touching juubito isnt a miraculous feat because juubito made no attempt to counter....
> Next hiruzen dealt with the same speed and managed to dodge a killing blow....
> *e decided to attack he used his speed with killing intent..even old hiruzen was able to dodge a straight blitz here*..
> Link removed Wanna claim hiruzen has superior reactions to tobirama he wasnt missing half his body...
> ...


Read my post again.
The feat is not about touching fucking Obito, it's about reacting to his super fast Shunshin. Something only Tobirama did .
Hashirama's clone got blitzed with no reaction.
Naruto and Sasuke got shitblitzed by even a more berserk Obito.
Hiruzen got blitzed as well.
And lol, Hiruzen didn't react to jack, he reacted to the extension of the GudoDama and _still got hit_ 

I know you're gonna be repeating this times and times again , so i'm gonna repeat my words as well.
Touching Obito wasn't important, reacting to his Shunshin is .


sabre320 said:


> HUh thats funny madaras casually reacted to tobiramas surprise ftg attack from his blindspot with ease and u claim tobirama had the upperhand ..... What we saw in the fight was tobirama being casually countered even with ftg to the point he had to warp constantly to attempt to compete his reactions and physical speed were clearly much slower and thus nowhere near even mindless juubito so claiming him to be be to tag juubito mutiple times in exchange as a means of consistent reflex level is a fallacy as it portrays sm madara above v1 juubito.




Tobirama escaped Madara's attack, got to his Kunai and was in a position to strike down Madara, the next panel Tobirama is on the ground with multiple rods in his back, while Madara's Limbo is still rnning around.
Awwww, what does this tell us ? 

Please learn how to make a comparison before you reply , Tobirama engaged with SM Madara in CQC and he lost, Tobirama would also lose in a CQC exchange against JJ Obito.
The difference is that Tobirama - even tho he can lose a CQC exchange against these 2 people - he showed on panel that he could react to both of them .
JJ Obito couldn't touch Tobirama before he put a marking on him.
SM Madara can't land a hit on Tobirama w/o a Shadow of him that he can't see or sense.
Both of JJ Obito and SM Rinnegan Madara are far above what Minato could ever hope to be in his life, so i'm not sure how him losing to these people means he loses to Minato as well 


sabre320 said:


> Interesting thing without limbo sm madara wasnt able to blitz or outclass ems sasuke efficiently even when he was inexperienced what we saw was ems sasuke outperforming tobirama in cqc against the same opponent even when he was inexperienced with ems...plz dont say madara would have done the same to minato without any evidence plz...minatos high end reaction feat is reacting to a kunai throw mid 5th step sekizo grabbing the kunai with his mouth letting the guodama touch him and then teleport before even gai had moved forward...this is when he shouted at gai too keep going at speed no matter what...


You know that Limbo was able to retrain EMS Sasuke w/o any effort right ? 
And you know that the Madara that Sasuke faced had no eye thus no Limbo .
Right ? 


sabre320 said:


> minatos high end reaction feat is reacting to a kunai throw mid 5th step sekizo grabbing the kunai with his mouth letting the guodama touch him and then teleport before even gai had moved forward...this is when he shouted at gai too keep going at speed no matter what


Interception feat, i know.
Same as :
- Lee throwing the Kunai before Gai could finish his 5th step Sekizo.
- Gaara raising his hand and his sand that carries Kakashi before Gai could finish his 5th step of Sekizo.
- Kakashi Kamui'ing Madara's TSB also before Gai could finish his 5th step as well .
Does this mean that Lee, Gaara and Kakashi are all better reactions that Tobirama ?  no that's how interception feats work in the Manga .
Especially when you know that BM Minato and SM minato, both got shit-blitzed by JJ Obito and JJ Madara, both of whom are far slower than 8G Gai

Reactions: Like 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara said Hashirama and Tobirama were revived weaker.


Cuz he knows them?!


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## Complete_Ownage (May 4, 2017)

While the manga has done it's job of portraying Minato as the slightly superior shinobi overall however in my opinion that does not mean he's going to defeat Tobirama in a 1v1 match.

The manga has gone out of its way numerous times to point out that Minato is superior in speed(shunshin) and FTG(advanced it further/less prep/barrier) however Tobiramas skill set makes up for any disadvantage. When it comes down to battle of FTG users the two key things that decides the fight is 1) Reactions 2) Striking speed which we have seen plenty of times

Tobirama has superior reactions, sensing, hand speed, and has far more battle intellect than Minato. The speed difference is not large enough for Minato to win this comfortably as we have seen Edo Tobirama outshine KCM Minato in a few instances. The same Tobirama who was not brought back AT FULL POWER while Minato gained a random power up through KCM. I simply believe kishi wrote himself into a corner with Tobirama and had to give Minato some extra powerups. I do not know why people ignore the fact that Edo Tobirama was not at full power while Minato was and was even stronger than his living self which was mentioned by Tobirama and confirmed through Madara. If people think it's a close debate about speed(not really imo) and reactions then the living form of Tobirama would be stronger than his showing as an edo tensie.

Was going to duplicate Minatos same feat against an opponent 10x more powerful than obito and one with vast knowledge on his fighting style but only to be pasted by what we all can agree was limbo clone

Tobirama was also known for shadow clone feints per Madara. Simply put these two are so evenly matched it comes down to who makes the first mistake. Basically... Intelligence and analytical ability is highly underrated on this forum in my opinion. When you have two characters who's overall abilities are somewhat in the same ballpark then it plays a MAJOR role. However if the gap between powers is significant then all the intelligence in the world is not going to help you get fucked up. Which is not the case here.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> The excuses I'm seeing for Tobirama not being more reflexive than Minato are kinda just bad... I'm tired of seeing the but " Tobirama was an Edo" or but" Juubito was mindless" argument. They are poor arguments that have been dismantled before multiple times. Juubito being an edo doesn't take away from his speed and that speed surpasses KCM Narutos greatest flicker as all the Kage were in awe of his speed and couldn't even properly move. Tobirama being ripped apart just proves that he couldn't tag Obito and use FTG without being tagged which isn't bad because Base Minato would have been punched in half with zero reactions. Tobirama being able to tag Juubito not once, not twice, but 5 times after being hit is impressive. It also means that he could have used FTG to avoid the attack all together but decided to use the benefits of Edo to catch JJ Obito off guard which has been stated to be a tactic he regularly uses. How do I know he could have used FTG to just avoid the attack? Because he was able to tag Juubito 5 times before the man even escaped the AoE of his arms. So unless you believe Tobirama was blitzed at 10m, completey ripped in half, and then magically gained the reactions to tag Juubito 5 times then you have to admit that he reacted to the flicker from the start. Which places his reactions above Base Minato as he wouldn't even be able to react to KCM Narutos top flicker, let alone JJ Obito.


 Tobirama wouldn't have been able to mark TTJ Obito at all unless he let himself get hit. It was either get hit and mark Obito, or teleport away in general and not touch him at all. I don't see how that makes Tobirama more reflexive.



> I mean shit, give Tobirama some respect and stop wanking Minato. His flicker is superior to Tobirama but that doesn't mean his reactions and handspeed are. Same way Gai punches way faster than Ay but travels slower.


 But the Body Flicker temporarily boosts one's speed and reflexes higher than normal. It's how they're capable of moving at such speed and don't run into walls when they use it. It revitalizes the entire body to allow them to move their whole body at speeds they normally couldn't have. I also don't think you guys realize that Tobirama's feat revolved more around movement speed rather than reflexes. Considering he went from being off-panel and doing all of that before Minato and co moved a muscle. That would mean that Tobirama can move his whole body much faster than NTCM Minato, NTCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke can in general despite being slower than base Minato. Pointing out the flaws of off-panel interceptions is not wanking Minato either. The instance that Tobirama had is no different than the instances I mentioned before, if you value this, you must value the rest. Do you value Haku being faster than Kakashi and Zabuza by such a margin that neither could react to his interception? Do you value Gaara's sand moving so fast that both Rock Lee and Kimimaro were taken by surprise and couldn't react to it when Gaara used it to save Lee by intercepting Kimimaro's attack? Despite both Lee and Kimimaro being able to react to it when it's directed at them? As well as everything else I mentioned?



ARGUS said:


> Superior body flicker giving someone an advantage in taijutsu is perhaps the dumbest argument one could bring


 Have you read this manga at all? Anyone who has read it could name several examples in which BF proved helpful and useful in CQC exchanges.



> Especially when the same fanboys sure as hell love to claim that Minato beats Ay in CQC despite the latters shunshin being tiers above Minatos


 Because Minato's FTG circumvents it, and his own reflexes are comparable enough to react to V2 A's fastest punch.



> Bm narutos shunshin >>> edo madaras
> Guess who raped who in taijutsu


 That's because his reflexes are much better, unlike here.



> Clearly this logic doesn't work,
> Beating someone in close quarters is up to reflexes, striking speed, physical strength and skill
> 
> Tobirmaa is above Minato in atleast 3 of them, and that is by a significant margin


 The entire basis for Tobirama's reflexes being better are:
1. Tobirama marking TTJ Obito several times at the cost of his own body.
2. Tobirama intercepting TTJ Obito's TSB before NTCM Minato, NTCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke could do anything from off-panel which have been shown to be inconsistent many times before.
These aren't good enough arguments to suggest that Tobirama would undoubtedly win here or that he is superior in this regard. Especially since the latter instance was only done to give Tobirama time to shine, as evident by Kishimoto nerfing NTCM Minato as much as possible. He had his technique formula that was placed on TTJ Obito magically disappear for absolutely no reason, yet let Tobirama's stay, Minato's charge on TTJ Obito was interrupted because he had to protect Naruto and Sasuke unlike Tobirama, it's stated in Jin no Sho that Minato was emotional when he fought Obito, and he had TTJ Obito remove his arm to hinder his performance for the rest of the battle against TTJ Obito and Madara as well.

There's also the fact that Tobirama already admitted inferiority in terms of both BF and FTG, and praised Minato for being able to save all of the remaining Allied Shinobi Forces which he couldn't do. Yet, I'm supposed to believe that Tobirama is superior and would beat Minato in a fight? Clearly Kishimoto wanted Tobirama (who had the worse portrayal out of all of the first four Hokage throughout most of the manga) to shine so he did everything in his power to ensure that Minato was nerfed so that Tobirama could actually do something. But now you have people misinterpreting this and thinking Tobirama is the stronger of the two. Jin no Sho even goes out of it's way to further call base Minato the "fastest in god-like speed" and mention how his FTG is perfected and superior to Tobirama's imperfect FTG in Minato's FTG technique entries. So yeah, I'm not buying it and neither should you.


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 4, 2017)

Complete_Ownage said:


> has far more battle intellect than Minato


not even just "more" but "far more" due to what ?




Complete_Ownage said:


> The same Tobirama who was not brought back AT FULL POWER while Minato gained a random power up through KCM


Before Tobirama's edo retcon Tobirama was a guy who killed by 20 elite shinobi when he has 5 elite shinobi and 1 kage level support !

So Tobirama also had his random p-up which is call as retcon. I cant see any difference between these situations.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tobirama wouldn't have been able to mark TTJ Obito at all unless he let himself get hit. It was either get hit and mark Obito, or teleport away in general and not touch him at all. I don't see how that makes Tobirama more reflexive.


Irrelevant, yes Tobirama can't mark JJ Obito w/o getting himself torn apart, you people just keep failling to grasp why or how does this feat matters. 
Tobirama was able to read Obito's speed, lift his right hand and put a marking on the man before Obito's Shunshin could finish, all while Naruto/Saske/and Minato had a " ?! " on their faces .
Nobody is saying Tobirama have faster reactions, but the way you guys keep acting like the feat of mrking JJ Obito isn't important is just ridiculous 
If Tobirama had markings outside the field he would be able to warp away easily as using Hiraishin only takes a thought, and even if he did had markings on the field, porting away from Obito's way wouldn't have allowed them to use GKF on him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Because he had fought with them before and knew of their past performance also he was directly fighting against them making it reasonable for him to draw a comparsion....why would he make a comment on minato or hiruzen when he didnt even fight them in his past didnt know their past performance and wasnt engaging them currently.



If they were better than Hashirama and Tobirama, that would be pointed out. He didn't. 
We saw what Hashirama could do at max power and we saw he couldn't with his Edo form... we never saw Tobirama's max form but Madara confirms like Hashirama, it was capped.

Basically, unless you had the Rinnegan or you were as potent as Hashirama/Tobirama, your power wouldn't be at its peak with ET.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Cuz he knows them?!



Knows them well enough to say that their powers aren't restored to their peak.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Irrelevant, yes Tobirama can't mark JJ Obito w/o getting himself torn apart, you people just keep failling to grasp why or how does this feat matters.
> Tobirama was able to read Obito's speed, lift his right hand and put a marking on the man before Obito's Shunshin could finish, all while Naruto/Saske/and Minato had a " ?! " on their faces .
> Nobody is saying Tobirama have faster reactions, but the way you guys keep acting like the feat of mrking JJ Obito isn't important is just ridiculous
> If Tobirama had markings outside the field he would be able to warp away easily as using Hiraishin only takes a thought, and even if he did had markings on the field, porting away from Obito's way wouldn't have allowed them to use GKF on him.


I never said the feat wasn't impressive, Minato himself even praised Tobirama for it. I completely agree that it is notable. I'm just saying that to say that Tobirama's reflexes are indisputably superior and he would beat Minato based off of that isn't a good enough argument. All of the arguments I'm seeing is that Tobirama has better reflexes either based off of that, or based off of an off-panel interception which are consistently inconsistent. If anything, their reflexes are on the same level and the disparity in them is not large enough to matter in this fight. Which is why I keep mentioning and pointing out the difference in their BF and FTG, cause I believe that will win the fight. Either way, it'd be a high difficulty fight as Minato and Tobirama are both portrayed on a similar level no doubt and neither can outright blitz the other and whoever lands first is the winner.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I never said the feat wasn't impressive, Minato himself even praised Tobirama for it. I completely agree that it is notable. I'm just saying that to say that Tobirama's reflexes are indisputably superior and he would beat Minato based off of that isn't a good enough argument. All of the arguments I'm seeing is that Tobirama has better reflexes either based off of that, or based off of an off-panel interception which are consistently inconsistent. If anything, their reflexes are on the same level and the disparity in them is not large enough to matter in this fight. Which is why I keep mentioning and pointing out the difference in their BF and FTG, cause I believe that will win the fight.


I know, and i even said that i'm siding with Minato because it's abvious for anyone who read the manga, that Minato is portrayed the superior Hokage 
But then again, the Tobirama downplay is just ridiculous sometimes 
- Minato isn't winning this fight w/o a high diff .
- Tobirama isn't that far away from Minato's level .
- Tobirama has his chances as well .


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## Isaiah13000 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> I know, and i even said that i'm siding with Minato because it's abvious for anyone who read the manga, that Minato is portrayed the superior Hokage
> But then again, the Tobirama downplay is just ridiculous sometimes
> - Minato isn't winning this fight w/o a high diff .
> - Tobirama isn't that far away from Minato's level .
> - Tobirama has his chances as well .


Then we both agree here. I agree that Tobirama does indeed have a chance, regardless of who wins it will be a high difficulty fight. No one is winning "mid diff" here, this will take everything that both of them have. But I lean towards Minato cause he's better at Tobirama than what Tobirama is best at, and if the Edo Tensei that Tobirama has causes too much difficulty for Minato he can always summon Gamabunta as a last resort to assist him here.


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Knows them well enough to say that their powers aren't restored to their peak.


Yeah but not far from their peak too. Tobirama's himself said that. He implies that they're summoned as close to their full power. Thanks to hashi-cell amped & orochimaru's proficiency over ET. They're not bad as Kabuto's mindwashed inferior edos.

But Tobirama is a bit tricky cuz he aint has any feat from his alive version except his terrible and stupid death (damn kishi). 

SO implying that being alive even make Tobirama far more superior is kinda bit hypocrate cuz Alive Tobirama was the worst Hokage before his retcon. 

So dont go over that part, this is my advice.. Both characters had their own unique power up when they're came as edo. 
SO They're alive version also will be a equal match to each other. 

____________

Having access to toads and toads jutsus
And having a better execution in cqc with rasengan & seals. 
Slighty make Minato edges out against Tobirama.
No one gonna beat the other with speed skills. Both of 'em pretty damn fast. So its comes to versatility and utility and Minato kinda edges out Tobirama fairly.
High diff match for both Hokage. And conclusion will be change due to factors like mindset, knowledge, location, preparation, etc. But in a random match with base attiributes ı think Minato a bit more superior and has better portrayal also.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

I just fucking had it with the Tobirama downplay in this forums.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## TheGreen1 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Hasn't been made in a bit, so let's see if anything changed .
> 
> OP :
> * Manga knowledge up to chapter 645.
> ...



Is ET already prepped and ready? If Tobirama is able to summon modified Madara and Hashirama, then Minato's screwed. BM would have given Minato enough to fight against Tobirama with those Edo Tensei, but otherwise I don't see how Minato beats the 2nd Hokage with them available.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

TheGreen1 said:


> Is ET already prepped and ready?


Yes, only fodder ET characters though.


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## TheGreen1 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Yes, only fodder ET characters though.


Oh, I thought the ET was fodder nin ready to die to summon Madara and Hashirama.

So who's considered "Fodder" to you? Because that changes things here.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

TheGreen1 said:


> So who's considered "Fodder" to you? Because that changes things here.


Kurenai level and below.


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## hbcaptain (May 4, 2017)

Here is Tobirama's feats againt Juubito with his mind active :

-Juubito blocked his redirected GudoDama at point blank + surprise attack while beeing marked :
This town

-Tobirama needs KCM Minato's distraction in order to touch a marked Juubito 
Link removed

-He said he will got annihiated if he jumps behind him another time
Link removed

Even tho, there is still some people who believe there is no difference between mindless Juubito and Full powered Juubito


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## TheGreen1 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Kurenai level and below.



Hmmm, I think Tobirama is dead here then. I amend my statement. Tobirama might be able to last longer, but Minato's faster and the seals are already scattered around. This is staked in Minato's favor here.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

TheGreen1 said:


> Hmmm, I think Tobirama is dead here then. I amend my statement. Tobirama might be able to last longer, but Minato's faster and the seals are already scattered around. This is staked in Minato's favor here.


Either way, the level of ET is irrelevant, as Tobirama didn't create ET to use them like Orochimaru or Kabuto do, he merely created them for his Tandem explosive tags jutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Yeah but not far from their peak too. Tobirama's himself said that. He implies that they're summoned as close to their full power. Thanks to hashi-cell amped & orochimaru's proficiency over ET. They're not bad as Kabuto's mindwashed inferior edos.
> 
> But Tobirama is a bit tricky cuz he aint has any feat from his alive version except his terrible and stupid death (damn kishi).



Tobirama did say virtually at full power, or almost. However, according to Madara, that makes a huge difference. You can argue Madara was brought back at virtually full power, yet when he was revived fully his battle quality radically changed. There's a reason Kishi chose to specifically highlight that Edo Tensei didn't bring back Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama's power in particular. 



> SO implying that being alive even make Tobirama far more superior is kinda bit hypocrate cuz Alive Tobirama was the worst Hokage before his retcon.



What retcon? Oro couldn't bring them anywhere near full power. On top of that, Madara himself said Tobirama would be more capable. This was after talking about his speed hype.



> So dont go over that part, this is my advice.. Both characters had their own unique power up when they're came as edo.
> SO They're alive version also will be a equal match to each other.



Minato wasn't depowered as an Edo, in fact, he was stronger. Tobirama was brought back weaker.



> Having access to toads and toads jutsus
> And having a better execution in cqc with rasengan & seals.
> Slighty make Minato edges out against Tobirama.
> No one gonna beat the other with speed skills. Both of 'em pretty damn fast. So its comes to versatility and utility and Minato kinda edges out Tobirama fairly.
> High diff match for both Hokage. And conclusion will be change due to factors like mindset, knowledge, location, preparation, etc. But in a random match with base attiributes ı think Minato a bit more superior and has better portrayal also.



Tobirama has several jutsu like Kage Bunshin and Edo Tensei, we don't know what summoning he's got access to. His Suiton is well known (which can potentially mess up Minato's Hiraishin set up and help his own). Madara's statement, however, implies Tobirama could be faster than he showed as an Edo. We can't ignore that.

Minato's only portrayal is a genius ninja who Naruto looked up to. That isn't anything like the Senju hype where a guy who easily killed Naruto and Sasuke (who well surpassed Minato by that time) explicitly said the Senju bros cannot use their full power. In Madara's view, things would've been different, or more difficult for him if the Senju bros were revived with their full powers.


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> when he was revived fully his battle quality radically changed.


Yes cuz he is revived by Kabuto w/o hashirama cell amp. And Madara has so much assets & attiributes to rendering in Edo Tensei such as Limbo. What Tobirama puts over his feats ? 

Hiruzen shows better elemental usage and physicality as Edo
Tobirama shows better technicality and dominancy as Edo
Minato shows senjutsu as Edo 

Three of'em aint had those attiributes as alive back then. ? So Madara's example not good to use for Tobirama's case. Cuz Alive Madara really step his gear up. But Alive Tobirama aint has any feats and all of his abilities comes with retcon ! 

So saying something like "Alive Tobirama even far more powerfull cuz of Madara situtation" aint legit.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kage Bunshin


Lİke Minato



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> we don't know what summoning he's got access to


we dont even know is he an access to that .. Like ı said featless.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We can't ignore that.


Yeah but Tobirama is aware about himself and he didnt compare his edo body with Minato he compared himself (like at his prime) with Minato and found Minato superior.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato's only portrayal is a genius ninja who Naruto looked up to


Gently downplaying 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Senju hype


Thats mostly Hashirama hype not "Senju". What now Tsunade has better rep than Hiruzen & Minato ? 
Sorry but before retcon Tobirama had the worst portrayal and portrayed inferior to Hiruzen.
And after retcon he is still portrayed slightly inferior to Minato.

SO he never had a amazing portrayal at all specially with his politic faults and his death.


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## Veracity (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Umm maybe you should actually read my post instead of accusing me of wanking not one feat i stated for minato was from out of manga i already provided evidence for my claims i do give credit to tobirama he is a strong kage but you are certainly wanking him as you claim he has reactions superior to juubito and can tag him 5 times in echange for  from juubito....try reading my reasoning instead of being triggered..
> 
> *letslook at tobiramas best claim to fame in his reactions* tobirama managed to land touches in exchange for getting obliterated...and whats conveniently ignored is the fact that this was *mindless juubito he made no attempts to defend himself from any attacks or touches he was not even able to speak did not dodge hashiramas gates even though his speed should allow him to casually dodge it..
> 
> ...



Nobody is triggered here. And I read your post, it's just not logical because you are leaving things out.

First you claim that Tobirama tagging Juubito isn't impressive because he was mindless. This entire logic is fallacious because once his mindless self started moving, he displayed speed superior to KCM Naruto and V2 Ay. That's the reason why Minato, Naruto and Sasuke couldnt even move despite the strongest entity charging towards them and that's the reason Minato decided to say that Juubito's speed was insane. Juubito being mindless didn't make his movements slower rather irregular. He would start moving at God level speeds then stop completely.You seem to want to highlight the fact that Mokuton could catch him but ignore the fact that he wasn't *moving at all*. His mindless brain goes from 100% to 0% in random moments. Tobirama tagged Juubito who displayed superior speed to KCM Naruto, who was fast enough to warrant hype from KCM Minato and even Tobirama himself received hype from KCM Minato. That's speed.

You're Hiruzen example holds no merit also for more than one reason:
• He was using flying speed not flicker speed
• He was at a farther distance
• He was using TSB to eat through already thrown shiruken before he rushed Hiruzen
• The TSB expansion speed is what attacked Hiruzen not his body speed
• Hiruzen got fucked over
• We have proof that Hiruzen was not able to react to Obitos previous flicker but Tobirama was.

That's why you have to take high end and low end feats together. His lowest end feats is being dodged by Sage Madara. His high end feats are being able to intercept TSB from KCM Minato, react to JJ Obito and his Bunshin was able to teleport to place hands on JJ Obito with no reaction. Find a happy middle point and place him right above Base Minato.




Isaiah13000 said:


> Tobirama wouldn't have been able to mark TTJ Obito at all unless he let himself get hit. It was either get hit and mark Obito, or teleport away in general and not touch him at all. I don't see how that makes Tobirama more reflexive.
> 
> But the Body Flicker temporarily boosts one's speed and reflexes higher than normal. It's how they're capable of moving at such speed and don't run into walls when they use it. It revitalizes the entire body to allow them to move their whole body at speeds they normally couldn't have. I also don't think you guys realize that Tobirama's feat revolved more around movement speed rather than reflexes. Considering he went from being off-panel and doing all of that before Minato and co moved a muscle. That would mean that Tobirama can move his whole body much faster than NTCM Minato, NTCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke can in general despite being slower than base Minato. Pointing out the flaws of off-panel interceptions is not wanking Minato either. The instance that Tobirama had is no different than the instances I mentioned before, if you value this, you must value the rest. Do you value Haku being faster than Kakashi and Zabuza by such a margin that neither could react to his interception? Do you value Gaara's sand moving so fast that both Rock Lee and Kimimaro were taken by surprise and couldn't react to it when Gaara used it to save Lee by intercepting Kimimaro's attack? Despite both Lee and Kimimaro being able to react to it when it's directed at them? As well as everything else I mentioned?



Because Base Minato would not have been able to even react to Juubito that's the point. He was inches away from getting his face punched in by someone vastly slower then Juubito and his KCM version not only gave Juubito speed hype after that feat.. but also wasn't able to even move an inch despite the strongest character rushing towards him.

I'm actually not talking about the interception feat, rather Tobirama reacting to Juubito. I do count the interception feat but that's only because Tobirama lacks a lot of feats and interception feats are counted as valid unless feats disagree with them; which isn't the case here. I don't think Tobirama is meant to be more reflexive than KCM Minato, but definitely more reflexive than Base Minato.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Yes cuz he is revived by Kabuto w/o hashirama cell amp. And Madara has so much assets & attiributes to rendering in Edo Tensei such as Limbo. What Tobirama puts over his feats ?



We've got only Madara's word and Madara doesn't often compliment characters.



> Hiruzen shows better elemental usage and physicality as Edo
> Tobirama shows better technicality and dominancy as Edo
> Minato shows senjutsu as Edo
> 
> ...



Are you trying to say they weren't that capable when they were alive?



> Lİke Minato
> 
> 
> we dont even know is he an access to that .. Like ı said featless.



If you're going by feats only, you'd say Rikudou Sennin loses to a lot of characters because we didn't see him in battle properly. Ignoring statements because it isn't favourable to one character isn't the way to go.



> Yeah but Tobirama is aware about himself and he didnt compare his edo body with Minato he compared himself (like at his prime) with Minato and found Minato superior.



That's fine, but Madara still suggested that Tobirama was more capable as a living person.



> Gently downplaying



That's literally what Minato was, pre-Kurama his level was exceeded by SM Naruto.

[QUTE]Thats mostly Hashirama hype not "Senju". What now Tsunade has better rep than Hiruzen & Minato ?
Sorry but before retcon Tobirama had the worst portrayal and portrayed inferior to Hiruzen.
And after retcon he is still portrayed slightly inferior to Minato.

SO he never had a amazing portrayal at all specially with his politic faults and his death.[/QUOTE]

Prime Hiruzen is another story, however, it doesn't change facts: Madara clearly said the Senju brothers can't use their full power. 

Minato was the only Hokage brought back stronger than his peak.


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## Serene Grace (May 4, 2017)

People don't seem to understand that being physically faster than someone doesn't automatically mean that person has greater reactions. Also didn't 6 gates lee, intercept guys movement? so 6 gates lee kunais>8 gates guys speed?

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## Isaiah13000 (May 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Because Base Minato would not have been able to even react to Juubito that's the point. He was inches away from getting his face punched in by someone vastly slower then Juubito and his KCM version not only gave Juubito speed hype after that feat.. but also wasn't able to even move an inch despite the strongest character rushing towards him.


 That was when Minato first confronted A, he has fought A and Killer B several times after that so obviously V2 A's speed stopped being a problem for him after he dealt with it the first time: considering how much stronger A and Killer B viewed Minato in comparison to themselves. Also, if Minato had chose to mark A instead in exchange for getting his head blown off he could've done so since he was fast enough to throw the kunai into the air above A. Had Tobirama been alive the situation against TTJ Obito would've been no different, he would've either been inches away from getting one-shotted and forced to rely on FTG to survive or mark him and get killed in the process. 



> I'm actually not talking about the interception feat, rather Tobirama reacting to Juubito. I do count the interception feat but that's only because Tobirama lacks a lot of feats and interception feats are counted as valid unless feats disagree with them; which isn't the case here. I don't think Tobirama is meant to be more reflexive than KCM Minato, but definitely more reflexive than Base Minato.


 Well if you do value that feat then you must believe that Tobirama is more reflexive than NTCM Minato, considering he reacted better to the TSB than Minato did. Tobirama literally managed to move from being completely out-of-sight to grabbing and teleporting the TSB back before NTCM Minato could do jackshit. There is nothing logical and consistent about that feature.

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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That was when Minato first confronted A, he has fought A and Killer B several times after that so obviously V2 A's speed stopped being a problem for him after he dealt with it the first time: considering how much stronger A and Killer B viewed Minato in comparison to themselves. Also, if Minato had chose to mark A instead in exchange for getting his head blown off he could've done so since he was fast enough to throw the kunai into the air above A. Had Tobirama been alive the situation against TTJ Obito would've been no different, he would've either been inches away from getting one-shotted and forced to rely on FTG to survive or mark him and get killed in the process.


You do realize that if alive Minato faced JJ Obito instead of A in that exact same situation , he would be killed instantly b4 even forming a thought, right ? 
Tobirama was in the same situation as Minato was against A, he was facing JJ obito for the first time and had no idea how fast he was, and still marked him in his back using his arm, that means he was able to wrap his arm around Obito and place a marking on him b4 Obito ripped half of his body.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> You do realize that if alive Minato faced JJ Obito instead of A in that exact same situation , he would be killed instantly b4 even forming a thought, right?


 Minato still reacted slightly to V2 A though, he threw his FTGK in the air above A and then teleported as A was charging him.


> Tobirama was in the same situation as Minato was against A, he was facing JJ obito for the first time and had no idea how fast he was, and still marked him in his back using his arm, that means he was able to wrap his arm around Obito and place a marking on him b4 Obito ripped half of his body.


How do we know that Tobirama didn't use both of his arms to do that though?


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We've got only Madara's word and Madara doesn't often compliment characters.


Gokage (speacially Tsunade & Ônoki ) , Gai & Sasuke so basicaly anyone he clashed with.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Are you trying to say they weren't that capable when they were alive?


No they're but ı just trying to say.

"KCM Minato & Edo Tobirama was a roughly equal pair then Alive Tobirama would be much superior than Base Minato" is wrong implication cuz all hokage (except Hashirama) amped as an Edo. Not just Minato. And Tobirama were maybe the luckiest one.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ignoring statements because it isn't favourable to one character isn't the way to go.


I'm not ignoring statements. Of course Tobirama is a special shinobi and force to be reckon with. But same things can be say for Minato too even with better rep, port and statements.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara still suggested that Tobirama was more capable as a living person.


Yeah but same madara beated Tobirama with his new powers which is rinnegan & sm. So he didnt use for his EMS base abilities. . So When madara last fought with Hashi & Tobirama he was a MS user. And after he gained EMS he only fought against Hashirama. 

So madara always gonna consider Tobirama as a more capable cuz Madara was less more powerfull than his war-arc version when he clashed with senju clan. And that makes  Tobirama even more intimidating who is the slayer of his little brother !

the gap between Rinne+Sm Madara and tobirama is not just about Tobirama's nerf due to ET its also about (even more related) how excels Madara, Tobirama in years. 

Same madara didnt even find Hashirama SM impressive. Which is the exact powerset that makes EMS Madara & %100 Kyuubi useless ! 

And same Tobirama found Yondaime pretty impressive too ! So if we're gonna go with statements ı think we can make cases for both sides. 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's literally what Minato was, pre-Kurama his level was exceeded by SM Naruto.


His level exceeded by SM Naruto ? Did you really belive that ? .. can SM Naruto take on against Tobi & %100 Kyuubi w/o any knowledge while is try to save his son, wife & village ? 

SM naruto needed plot touch against non-killing intent pain (Tobi + %100 kyuubi >>>> Pain > Pain w/o killing intent

So your're greatly and obviously underestimating Minato here.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato was the only Hokage brought back stronger than his peak.


Then how Tobirama died against 20 jonin
And how Hiruzen never showed similar physical feats at his fight against Orochimaru and 5 element proficiency 

!? Are we still gonna go with Minato was the only amped edo hokage ?! Hashirama nerfed greatly and Minato losts his both arms that makes him 2nd nerfed Hokage. 

Minato loses his arms against juubi jincs.. Tobirama got owned by Alive Madara... ? I'm not saying same Madara cant take out Minato..Yeah Minato would be nailed down like Tobirama in the same situation. But still even w/o arms Minato was still able to save the day with his strategies and timing proficiency when Tobirama completely out of the battle ..

Alive Tobirama aint has any canon peak .. Sadly. He is a retconned character. Kishi needs to clean his messed up past. Until that happened. there is no Peak Tobirama who is superior than Hokage Minato. I can consider them very close (even the existence of that terrible death scenario) but nope he aint a tier above hokage minato.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Minato still reacted slightly to V2 A though, he threw his FTGK in the air above A and then teleported as A was charging him.


This isn't what i'm talking about.
A rushed Minato, he had his fist 1 cm away from Minato who had a look of surprise on his face.
If we replace A with JJ Obito is this situation, Minato is gonna get fisted before he even knows what happened to him because JJ obito by feats is tiers above V2 A in speed, no ?


Isaiah13000 said:


> How do we know that Tobirama didn't use both of his arms to do that though?


Because that's anatomically impossible.
We can check the chapter again and we can see that the marking Tobirama placed on JJ Obito is on the side that is facing half of Tobirama's body that was ripped.

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## Veracity (May 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That was when Minato first confronted A, he has fought A and Killer B several times after that so obviously V2 A's speed stopped being a problem for him after he dealt with it the first time: considering how much stronger A and Killer B viewed Minato in comparison to themselves. Also, if Minato had chose to mark A instead in exchange for getting his head blown off he could've done so since he was fast enough to throw the kunai into the air above A. Had Tobirama been alive the situation against TTJ Obito would've been no different, he would've either been inches away from getting one-shotted and forced to rely on FTG to survive or mark him and get killed in the process.
> 
> Well if you do value that feat then you must believe that Tobirama is more reflexive than NTCM Minato, considering he reacted better to the TSB than Minato did. Tobirama literally managed to move from being completely out-of-sight to grabbing and teleporting the TSB back before NTCM Minato could do jackshit. There is nothing logical and consistent about that feature.



Why does that even matter? No matter how much Ay tries, Minato is just fast enough to dodge him which has no merit in this conversation because Ay is far slower than Juubito.  Minato may have been able to get off a single tag on Ay( which is debatable considering the movements to throw a Kunai are quicker than tagging your opponent hence the reason Minato chose to do so) but that's against a much slower opponent and that's tagging him once... not 5 times. The point is that Minato can narrowly dodge V2 Ay's flciker let alone someone the speed of KCM Naruto let alone JJ Obito. One of your problems is that you're assuming Minato will be able to get the tag off once he's hit which doesn't make senee because Juubito didn't slow once he slammed into Tobirama. He kept up with his God tier speed and Tobirama was prepared for the blow. Base Minato would not be.

You can ignore that feature if you want, it doesn't weaken my argument at all because I never brought it up in my first post. It's also a case of low end/high end feats and Rocky convinced me that Tobirama used FTG to teleport to that TSB( connected chakra) which would just mean his handspeed is superior to KCM Minato.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Tobirama used FTG to teleport to that TSB( connected chakra) which would just mean his handspeed is superior to KCM Minato


That was Tobirama's clone that got to the TSB, not the real one.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> This isn't what i'm talking about.
> A rushed Minato, he had his fist 1 cm away from Minato who had a look of surprise on his face.
> If we replace A with JJ Obito is this situation, Minato is gonna get fisted before he even knows what happened to him because JJ obito by feats is tiers above V2 A in speed, no ?


 Yeah, that version of Obito is significantly faster than V2 A.



> Because that's anatomically impossible.
> We can check the chapter again and we can see that the marking Tobirama placed on JJ Obito is on the side that is facing half of Tobirama's body that was ripped.


I quickly reread the chapters. You're right, there's no way Tobirama moved that much and did that based on where the marker is placed. He must've tagged Obito five times using his right arm before it got torn off, which is a phenomenal feat.



Veracity said:


> Why does that even matter? No matter how much Ay tries, Minato is just fast enough to dodge him which has no merit in this conversation because Ay is far slower than Juubito.  Minato may have been able to get off a single tag on Ay( which is debatable considering the movements to throw a Kunai are quicker than tagging your opponent hence the reason Minato chose to do so) but that's against a much slower opponent and that's tagging him once... not 5 times. The point is that Minato can narrowly dodge V2 Ay's flciker let alone someone the speed of KCM Naruto let alone JJ Obito. One of your problems is that you're assuming Minato will be able to get the tag off once he's hit which doesn't make senee because Juubito didn't slow once he slammed into Tobirama. He kept up with his God tier speed and Tobirama was prepared for the blow. Base Minato would not be.


 So what you and GT are trying to say is that Tobirama's reflexes are superior because he was capable of reacting better to a significantly faster opponent than what base Minato fought? 



> You can ignore that feature if you want, it doesn't weaken my argument at all because I never brought it up in my first post. It's also a case of low end/high end feats and Rocky convinced me that Tobirama used FTG to teleport to that TSB( connected chakra) which would just mean his handspeed is superior to KCM Minato.


 I still think it shouldn't be taken seriously, as it's still all apart of an off-panel interception. However, with what you've said beforehand I might be inclined to agree with you now that Tobirama's reflexes and striking speed are superior.

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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> So what you and GT are trying to say is that Tobirama's reflexes are superior because he was capable of reacting better to a significantly faster opponent than what base Minato fought?


Eh, his feats are better but like i always say, feats can always be misleading, it's better to use both feats and portrayal to gauge the strength of a character.


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## Veracity (May 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah, that version of Obito is significantly faster than V2 A.
> 
> I quickly reread the chapters. You're right, there's no way Tobirama moved that much and did that based on where the marker is placed. He must've tagged Obito five times using his right arm before it got torn off, which is a phenomenal feat.
> 
> ...


I think the reason as to why some people can't understand why Tobirama could be faster than Minato in some aspects of speed is because Kishi handled his character so poorly. Many people don't even understand Tobirama's retcon and want to highlight all of Minato's speed hype despite the fact that he's had *a lot* more time to accumulate hype than Tobirama. Minato was introduced with FTG and all his speed hype while Tobirama didn't get retconned into being a speedster until after chapter 502, and still didn't receive hype for fastest of his generation until after Madara absorbed all the tailed beasts.

Some people also don't have a great grasp on the fact that there is more than one type of speed. Minato arriving at the battlefield before Tobirama doesn't necessarily mean his reactions and handspeed are better as they are actually shown to be inferior. Same way Ay has the title as fastest shinobi yet strikes slower than Gai. Tobirama by feats has better handspeed and reactions than Minato and because portrayal has never drawn a comparison between the two in terms of reactions/handspeed, one has to take the feats at face value. This doesn't mean that Tobirama would stomp Minato however. I think the fight is going high to extreme difficulty no matter who wins.

This honestly wasn't aimed at you, I just wanted to get some information out.



GuidingThunder said:


> That was Tobirama's clone that got to the TSB, not the real one.



Aren't the Bunshin connected to the source of the ftg marker? I mean Tobirama can connect himself to Minato's FTG marker, so his Bunshin should be able to do the same.

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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Aren't but Bunshin connected to the source of the ftg marker? I mean Tobirama can connect himself to Minato's FTG marker.


What do you mean ? 
Tobirama's clone used body flicker to get to the TSB IICR, not Hiraishin.
He (the clone) only used Hiraishin to return the TSB back to Obito.
Tobirama didn't link his Hiraishin to Minato's until later after that ......


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> You do realize that if alive Minato faced JJ Obito instead of A in that exact same situation , he would be killed instantly b4 even forming a thought, right ?
> Tobirama was in the same situation as Minato was against A, he was facing JJ obito for the first time and had no idea how fast he was, and still marked him in his back using his arm, that means he was able to wrap his arm around Obito and place a marking on him b4 Obito ripped half of his body.


lol you claim people are downplaying tobirama then you start to downplay minato....minato was not close to being blitzed by ei....you make it sound like he was a second from being blitzed when infact what he was doing is baiting him..he had already flung the kunai behind ei when he rushed him he could have teleported to the kunai in the tree much earlier but lets look at what he did he threw the kunai behind ei, teleported to the marker on the tree turned around teleported back to ei and was going to finish a physical strike on his back before wi had even moved an inch or even realized what had happened....he accomplished  tasks before ei had even moved or realized what had happened so plz tell me how was he pressured....later he turned his back on ei and even casually reacted to a blindside rush.....

He had already displayed reactions superior to the speed of dual kamui...why would he blitzed stop accusing others of downplaying a character then doing the same thing...
You take tobiramas mindless jubito feat as gospel even though he was later unable to even touch sm madara who is a tier below juubito in speed even with a blindside ftg sneak atatck and then ignore minatos sekizo feat.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> I just fucking had it with the Tobirama downplay in this forums.


What downplay...there are multiple posters that think he is above even kcm minato... and he is generally placed above itachi,sm jirayia etc which is his correct position and even though we have in canon the fact that he was defeated by kingaku and ginkaku.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> lol you claim people are downplaying tobirama then you start to downplay minato....minato was not close to being blitzed by ei....you make it sound like he was a second from being blitzed when infact what he was doing is baiting him..he had already flung the kunai behind ei when he rushed him he could have teleported to the kunai in the tree much earlier but lets look at what he did he threw the kunai behind ei, teleported to the marker on the tree turned around teleported back to ei and was going to finish a physical strike on his back before wi had even moved an inch or even realized what had happened....he accomplished  tasks before ei had even moved or realized what had happened so plz tell me how was he pressured....later he turned his back on ei and even casually reacted to a blindside rush.....
> 
> He had already displayed reactions superior to the speed of dual kamui...why would he blitzed stop accusing others of downplaying a character then doing the same thing...


Me ? downplaying Minato ? when i have one of his techniques as my username ?
LOL OK .
Yes A rushed Minato and was 1cm away from hitting him, and Minato wasn't baiting shit son, otherwise he wouldn't have a big fucking " ?! " on his face.
Compare his reaction to A with KCM Naruto's reaction to A. V2 A rushed KCM Naruto who looked at him, saw him coming easily and then outsped and dodged his dash all with a look of confidence on his face, that's a better reaction there.

The rest is irrelevant, the feat is not about who touched who, it's about who reacted to who, A couldn't react to what happened after that because his body speed - as fast as it can get - is still slower than Hiraishin 
It's the same exact reason why JJ Obito got trolled multiple times with Hiraishin, it's instant.


sabre320 said:


> later he turned his back on ei and even casually reacted to a blindside rush.....


Lol.
No 

Read what A said, he said he'll force Minato to warp away with Hiraishin and then get him with his super speed, A wasn't going to use his fastest shunshin until Minato teleports away.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> -Juubito blocked his redirected GudoDama at point blank + surprise attack while beeing marked :


That was a clone 
And Lmao, at least he saved them by taking the TSB away.


hbcaptain said:


> -Tobirama needs KCM Minato's distraction in order to touch a marked Juubito


 
Do you even know how Hiraishin Gushen mawashi works ? 
They were trying to separate him from his TSB.
Tobirama and SM Naruto sure as hell didn't need any distraction to land a Rasengan on Obito.


hbcaptain said:


> -He said he will got annihiated if he jumps behind him another time


 
He was talking about everyone, not just himself.


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## Veracity (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> What do you mean ?
> Tobirama's clone used body flicker to get to the TSB IICR, not Hiraishin.
> He (the clone) only used Hiraishin to return the TSB back to Obito.
> Tobirama didn't link his Hiraishin to Minato's until later after that ......


Tobirama kinda just appeared there. There was no indication of what he used i just assumed it was FTG considering how ridiculously fast he would have been to get there on feet.

I meant that his clone could have used FTG to get to the tsb( because an FTG seal was already on Obito and the TSB was his chakra) instead of just using footspeed.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Read my post again.
> The feat is not about touching fucking Obito, it's about reacting to his super fast Shunshin. Something only Tobirama did .
> Hashirama's clone got blitzed with no reaction.
> Naruto and Sasuke got shitblitzed by even a more berserk Obito.
> ...



An inexperienced ems sasuke put up a defense with v1 sussano but he was easily overpowered and his defense destroyed in no way was he blitzed....ems sasuke reacted just fine...as did later kcm naruto with his chakra arm before obito could strike them from a few inches from their face...

Plz stop trying to play tobiramas performance against sm madara in a win for tobirama...he had a surprise ftg attack from behind madara where he could avoid dojutsu precog and was still casually countered by madara....there is no superior position for tobirama to be in in engaging an opponent ..and yet he was casually countered .. an inexperienced ems sasuke drew blood against sm madara and was keeping up and tobirama from a blindside ftg attack void of dojutsu precog was casually countered...Link removed
He not ony evaded the attack but also disarmed tobirama in one move and was going to tag him forcing tobirama to warp behind him in an attempt to compete as he couldnt physically match him...which ems sasuke did...

On panel at no point was limbo a factor against tobirama against sasuke it was shown that he was defeated by limbo but against tobirama all ur doing is guessing....Sm madara is far above minato overall yes but far ahead in speed and reactions no i dont believe so...he was blitzed by bm narutos avatar and was tagged by sasuke..I never claimed minato had far superior reactions to tobirama but you on the otherhand have gone overboard and are portraying tobirama to be tiers above minato in reactions which just isnt true..


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Tobirama kinda just appeared there. There was no indication of what he used i just assumed it was FTG considering how ridiculously fast he would have been to get there on feet.


Unless i'm having a bad memory, Tobirama's clone couldn't have got in there using Hiraishin, non of them (Minato/Naruto/Sasuke) were marked by Tobirama, and Tobirama had no markings on the field either.


Veracity said:


> I meant that his clone could have used FTG to get to the tsb( because an FTG seal was already on Obito and the TSB was his chakra) instead of just using footspeed.


That's impossible. 
If that was the case, then that means they could've just used that to take all of Obito's TSB away from him.
But instead they had to combine their effort and use Hiraishin Gushin Mawashi to get around his TSB defense.


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Me ? downplaying Minato ? when i have one of his techniques as my username ?
> LOL OK .
> Yes A rushed Minato and was 1cm away from hitting him, and Minato wasn't baiting shit son, otherwise he wouldn't have a big fucking " ?! " on his face.
> Compare his reaction to A with KCM Naruto's reaction to A. V2 A rushed KCM Naruto who looked at him, saw him coming easily and then outsped and dodged his dash all with a look of confidence on his face, that's a better reaction there.
> ...


I have seen ur username dosent change the fact that u are downplaying minato...Ei rushed minato and minato managed both a physical reaction in throwing the kunai and warping then managed another in turning around looking at ei warping back and finished a physical strike key word physical strike before ei even moved or was able to process a person who is barely able to escape a strike can not accomplish  physcial tasks and 3 mental reactions then land a physical strike on someone before they can react....what the heck are u talkinga abt..minato was going to land a full drawn out physical kunai strike on eis back before he could react or move an inch excluding the earlier reactions...ei is not in minatos speed park....he needed bee there and still couldnt touch him and still admitted utter inferiority.


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## Veracity (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Unless i'm having a bad memory, Tobirama's clone couldn't have got in there using Hiraishin, non of them (Minato/Naruto/Sasuke) were marked by Tobirama, and Tobirama had no markings on the field either.
> 
> That's impossible.
> If that was the case, then that means they could've just used that to take all of Obito's TSB away from him.
> But instead they had to combine their effort and use Hiraishin Gushin Mawashi to get around his TSB defense.


You could be right. That's just a theory Rocky had like a year ago


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> An inexperienced ems sasuke put up a defense with v1 sussano but he was easily overpowered and his defense destroyed in no way was he blitzed....ems sasuke reacted just fine...as did later kcm naruto with his chakra arm before obito could strike them from a few inches from their face...


That's what we call interception, EMS Sasuke got shitblitzed when Obito rushed him.
KCM Naruto didn't react to shit 
He reacted to the extension of the TSB not Obito's body speed, the TSB don't extend as fast as Obito can move.


sabre320 said:


> Plz stop trying to play tobiramas performance against sm madara in a win for tobirama...he had a surprise ftg attack from behind madara where he could avoid dojutsu precog and was still casually countered by madara....there is no superior position for tobirama to be in in engaging an opponent ..and yet he was casually countered .. an inexperienced ems sasuke drew blood against sm madara and was keeping up and tobirama from a blindside ftg attack void of dojutsu precog was casually countered...Link removed
> He not ony evaded the attack but also disarmed tobirama in one move and was going to tag him forcing tobirama to warp behind him in an attempt to compete as he couldnt physically match him...which ems sasuke did...



You do know that SM gives you precog and danger sensing right ? thus Tobirama attacking him from behind is irrelevant as fuc.
Sasuke for fuck's sake didn't outperform shit *, Madara easily dodged all of his attacks and let him stab him so he can use that as a bait to talk him to join his side, and that just blind Madara.
Now let's compare Sasuke and Tobirama vs Rinnegan SM Madara shall we ? 
Tobirama at least was able to put up some resistance.
Sasuke attacked Madara from behind, got caught mid-air by Limbo and got stabbed in the heart neg diff .
Outperformed my white ass 


sabre320 said:


> On panel at no point was limbo a factor against tobirama against sasuke it was shown that he was defeated by limbo but against tobirama all ur doing is guessing....Sm madara is far above minato overall yes but far ahead in speed and reactions no i dont believe so...he was blitzed by bm narutos avatar and was tagged by sasuke..I never claimed minato had far superior reactions to tobirama but you on the otherhand have gone overboard and are portraying tobirama to be tiers above minato in reactions which just isnt true..


Madara had a Limbo who was standing right next to him after he defeated Tobirama, it doesn't take a genius to figure out he used Limbo, and lol Minato would've got shitstomped as well if he faced Rinnegan SM Madara.
Please, i'm begging you, try to remember what happened in the Manga before you make a post, the Madara who got tagged by BM Naruto was blind in a giant Susanoo that is a big fucking target.


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

I'm tired as shit 

I can't debate with 6 different people in 4 different threads, while answering PMs from 3 different posters

Reactions: Funny 1


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> That's what we call interception, EMS Sasuke got shitblitzed when Obito rushed him.
> KCM Naruto didn't react to shit
> He reacted to the extension of the TSB not Obito's body speed, the TSB don't extend as fast as Obito can move.
> 
> ...


Sasuke managed to put up v1 sussano and tried to slow obito down but obito crushed it how is that a blitz his defense was crushed???

Interesting you acknowledge the same danger sensing in madaras case and then conveniently ignore it when bm naruto blitzed madara with his avatar...madaras eye sight was not a factor because he was attacked from his blindside with ftg negating precog ,,,and he possesed the same danger sensing against bm narutos attack which consisted of a giant glowing avatar rushing at him while tobirama attempted a sneak st attack...A giant target...wtf madara wasnt even able to react not even notice narutos presence  v4 sussano isnt a giant target at all and posseses the same reactions and speed as its user..
Sasuke didnt attack madara from behind he shouted at madara telegraphing his attack..Madara was sparring with sasuke and complimented him on his brilliant movement and reactions specifically giving choku tomtoe for the exceptional performance ....in the same panel he said that his eyes would serve as a suitable replacement till he gets his rinnegan  nice negotiation eh madara...
Tobirama wasnt engaged by limbo in his fight wtf are u talkin abt...limbo was never a factor in his fight against madara on panel sasuke drew blood from madara earning praise and drawing madaras hunger for his eye due to its prowess it was later that he was later ambushed by limbo how are u even drawing this fallacious comparison...in tobiramas fight on panel limbo was not used once..


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## Hazuki (May 4, 2017)

In my opinion i always considered alive tobirama better than alive minato

in fact edo tobirama ( weaker than when he was alive) did a nice duo with edo minato km ( who is much stronger and faster then minato alive)


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## Isaiah13000 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Eh, his feats are better but like i always say, feats can always be misleading, it's better to use both feats and portrayal to gauge the strength of a character.


 Imho, hype and feats both factor into a character's portrayal. Which in this case favors Minato, but that doesn't mean Tobirama can't win since Tobirama's level is comparable to Minato's own. 



Veracity said:


> I think the reason as to why some people can't understand why Tobirama could be faster than Minato in some aspects of speed is because Kishi handled his character so poorly. Many people don't even understand Tobirama's retcon and want to highlight all of Minato's speed hype despite the fact that he's had *a lot* more time to accumulate hype than Tobirama. Minato was introduced with FTG and all his speed hype while Tobirama didn't get retconned into being a speedster until after chapter 502, and still didn't receive hype for fastest of his generation until after Madara absorbed all the tailed beasts.


 Agreed. Although, I can kind of see where they're coming from. My opinion was the same as theirs not that long ago, but at this point I can't think of a legitimate counter argument to what you and GT have proposed to me. So I have conceded my argument and Tobirama being faster than Minato at some things is fine. 



> Some people also don't have a great grasp on the fact that there is more than one type of speed. Minato arriving at the battlefield before Tobirama doesn't necessarily mean his reactions and handspeed are better as they are actually shown to be inferior. Same way Ay has the title as fastest shinobi yet strikes slower than Gai. Tobirama by feats has better handspeed and reactions than Minato and because portrayal has never drawn a comparison between the two in terms of reactions/handspeed, one has to take the feats at face value. This doesn't mean that Tobirama would stomp Minato however. I think the fight is going high to extreme difficulty no matter who wins.
> 
> This honestly wasn't aimed at you, I just wanted to get some information out.


 Yeah, not to mention that Minato and Tobirama were primarily hailed as the fastest due to FTG. Not because their movement speed was off the charts like V2 A's is. I also agree that the fight is going to be a high difficulty fight for both of them, no one is going to stomp the other.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (May 4, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Sasuke managed to put up v1 sussano and tried to slow obito down but obito crushed it how is that a blitz his defense was crushed???
> 
> Interesting you acknowledge the same danger sensing in madaras case and then conveniently ignore it when bm naruto blitzed madara with his avatar...madaras eye sight was not a factor because he was attacked from his blindside with ftg negating precog ,,,and he possesed the same danger sensing against bm narutos attack which consisted of a giant glowing avatar rushing at him while tobirama attempted a sneak st attack...A giant target...wtf madara wasnt even able to react not even notice narutos presence  v4 sussano isnt a giant target at all and posseses the same reactions and speed as its user..
> Sasuke didnt attack madara from behind he shouted at madara telegraphing his attack..Madara was sparring with sasuke and complimented him on his brilliant movement and reactions specifically giving choku tomtoe for the exceptional performance ....in the same panel he said that his eyes would serve as a suitable replacement till he gets his rinnegan  nice negotiation eh madara...
> Tobirama wasnt engaged by limbo in his fight wtf are u talkin abt...limbo was never a factor in his fight against madara on panel sasuke drew blood from madara earning praise and drawing madaras hunger for his eye due to its prowess it was later that he was later ambushed by limbo how are u even drawing this fallacious comparison...in tobiramas fight on panel limbo was not used once..


Whatever you want  there are times when you just can't change the opinion of someone no matter how hard you try, simply because they don't know what are they talking about combined with the fact that just don't want to listen and go all " nah nah nah i can't hear you i can't hear you ".
So i rather spend what's left of my energy on somehing more important, nighty


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## NightingaleOfShadows (May 4, 2017)

Tobirama wins, hes simply more versatile, smarter, and haves the edge in chakra, the only thing Minato haves an edge on is ST


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## sabre320 (May 4, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Whatever you want  there are times when you just can't change the opinion of someone no matter how hard you try, simply because they don't know what are they talking about combined with the fact that just don't want to listen and go all " nah nah nah i can't hear you i can't hear you ".
> So i rather spend what's left of my energy on somehing more important, nighty


Nice concession

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Kyu (May 4, 2017)

How is Tobirama more versatile?

'Cause 99% of the time when someone says "versatile" around here, they mean "diverse" or "uses more than one move all the time" and don't know the difference.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Gokage (speacially Tsunade & Ônoki ) , Gai & Sasuke so basicaly anyone he clashed with.



He complimented their teamwork in the end before saying the Gokage were nothing. He complimented Sasuke saying he has potential, because of the EMS. That's nothing compared to him saying Tobirama and Hashirama can't use their full abilities.



> No they're but ı just trying to say.
> 
> "KCM Minato & Edo Tobirama was a roughly equal pair then Alive Tobirama would be much superior than Base Minato" is wrong implication cuz all hokage (except Hashirama) amped as an Edo. Not just Minato. And Tobirama were maybe the luckiest one.



When did I say KCM Minato and Edo Tobirama were roughly equal? Also no, Minato was the only amped Hokage with Edo Tensei. 
Madara clearly said that the Senju bros can't use their max abilities and Hiruzen is an old guy.



> I'm not ignoring statements. Of course Tobirama is a special shinobi and force to be reckon with. But same things can be say for Minato too even with better rep, port and statements.



Feats only relies on us ignoring statements. Nagato had no reputation and we know he was stronger than ninja like Kakashi and Itachi who had more rep than him. 
However, we were told Tobirama (who was impressive) was capable of so much more by someone who saw his living version in battle. That's enough for us to consider.



> Yeah but same madara beated Tobirama with his new powers which is rinnegan & sm. So he didnt use for his EMS base abilities. . So When madara last fought with Hashi & Tobirama he was a MS user. And after he gained EMS he only fought against Hashirama.
> 
> So madara always gonna consider Tobirama as a more capable cuz Madara was less more powerfull than his war-arc version when he clashed with senju clan. And that makes  Tobirama even more intimidating who is the slayer of his little brother !
> 
> ...



Madara was probably always stronger than Tobirama, even without his new powers. However, it doesn't take away from him saying that Tobirama was stronger than his Edo form.

Madara was not comparing Tobirama to himself. Hashirama wasn't much of a match for Rinnegan Madara hence when he was living, he stopped Hashirama quite quick. 

There's no gap comparison between Madara and Tobirama, Madara was referring to the gap between Tobirama's living and Edo forms which apparently is noticeable enough for him to mention.



> And same Tobirama found Yondaime pretty impressive too ! So if we're gonna go with statements ı think we can make cases for both sides.



He may have found Minato impressive, but it doesn't change that Tobirama was still more capable as a living person. Tobirama also found SM Naruto, KCM Naruto and EMS impressive. Kabuto and Madara found base Naruto impressive. Doesn't always need to be about power.



> His level exceeded by SM Naruto ? Did you really belive that ? .. can SM Naruto take on against Tobi & %100 Kyuubi w/o any knowledge while is try to save his son, wife & village ?
> 
> SM naruto needed plot touch against non-killing intent pain (Tobi + %100 kyuubi >>>> Pain > Pain w/o killing intent
> 
> So your're greatly and obviously underestimating Minato here.



Yes, I do because the manga made it very clear. Minato didn't even take on Tobi and 100% Kurama together, even then he couldn't take out the latter without Kushina. Fukasaku, the toads and Tsunade all believed Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and Minato. If anything, you're probably underestimating SM Naruto.

Tobi+Kurama would mean something if Minato actually fought Tobi and Kurama together: Hashirama fought someone stronger than Tobi and Kurama at the same time. SM Naruto would be capable of taking Tobi one on one, which is what Minato did. Fuu and Tourne were able to damage Tobi, so SM Naruto would stand a good chance. 



> Then how Tobirama died against 20 jonin
> And how Hiruzen never showed similar physical feats at his fight against Orochimaru and 5 element proficiency



20 Jonin and then there were Ginkaku and Kinkaku, so it took 20 Jonin plus 2 guys with Kyuubi powers to kill Tobirama.

If Hiruzen could do it as an old guy as an Edo, he could if he was living. Why didn't he if he was living against Oro? He didn't need to. In fact, it was made clear that hia prime form was on a completely higher level. To top if it off, the databook made it clear he knew every non-Kekkei Genkai jutsu from Konoha (from when he was alive). 



> !? Are we still gonna go with Minato was the only amped edo hokage ?! Hashirama nerfed greatly and Minato losts his both arms that makes him 2nd nerfed Hokage.
> 
> Minato loses his arms against juubi jincs.. Tobirama got owned by Alive Madara... ? I'm not saying same Madara cant take out Minato..Yeah Minato would be nailed down like Tobirama in the same situation. But still even w/o arms Minato was still able to save the day with his strategies and timing proficiency when Tobirama completely out of the battle ..



Yeah, which is pretty funny on Minato's end. He was revived stronger and still managed to get crippled. Hashirama and Tobirama were revived weaker and didn't get crippled. That highlights a skill difference, arguably.

Tobirama got owned by a living Madara true, but unless you're going to argue that Minato could do better this point is meaningless. In fact, Tobirama attacked just as Minato would and that implied Minato would've failed just has hard. Minato was able to participate because Madara didn't view Minato as threatening enough to get rid of like he did with Tobirama. FYI, Madara was aware about Minato and his Yellow Flash rep. That says a lot.



> Alive Tobirama aint has any canon peak .. Sadly. He is a retconned character. Kishi needs to clean his messed up past. Until that happened. there is no Peak Tobirama who is superior than Hokage Minato. I can consider them very close (even the existence of that terrible death scenario) but nope he aint a tier above hokage minato.



Except, Madara thought nothing of Minato and said Tobirama alongside Hashirama were revived weaker. That says a lot. 

The Senju bros are a tier above Minato, in fact, Hashirama is several tiers above Minato. Prime Hiruzen is likely above Tobirama and Minato but below Hashirama. 

Put it this way, it says a lot if Minato was the only Hokage to be revived stronger than his living form.


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## ARGUS (May 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Have you read this manga at all? Anyone who has read it could name several examples in which BF proved helpful and useful in CQC exchanges.


BF could only be helpful in evasion 
And even then it's only meaningful if the user *actually has the reactions to pull it off*
Every CQC exchange requires reactions and superior striking speed to land your blows 
Nothing else 
If you don't have those 2 being superior, then you'll lose or the best you can manage is a draw 



> Because Minato's FTG circumvents it, and his own reflexes are comparable enough to react to V2 A's fastest punch.


Again, FTG is only helpful if Minato actually has the reactions to evade Ays blow 
By your logic Ay should have absolutely demolished Minato given how much faster his shunshin truly is. But that didn't happen, and it wasn't cus of lol FTG 
It was cus *minato had the reactions to dodge Ays strike and striking speed to counterattack*



> That's because his reflexes are much better, unlike here.


That's contradictory af here 
Tobiramas reflexes outperformed even KCM minato let alone base 



> The entire basis for Tobirama's reflexes being better are:
> 1. Tobirama marking TTJ Obito several times at the cost of his own body.


No, he reacted to Juubito and marked him mid blitz. 
Even the likes of KCM naruto (on par with base Minato) and ems Sasuke were blitzed with little to no reaction 


Once he marked him, he still tagged Juubito despite the fact that Juubito would have wrecked him just how he did to Minato when he attempted such thing 


> 2. Tobirama intercepting TTJ Obito's TSB before NTCM Minato, NTCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke could do anything from off-panel which have been shown to be inconsistent many times before.



Uhh wrong. This is flat out denial 
It was not an interception feat because Tobirama had marked Juubito (something which Minato failed to do) 
Reacted to TSB and acted well before KCM minato could even move an inch 
Tobirama did the following before KCM minato and the rest: 
1. Send a clone towards minato 
2. Grab the TSB, 
3. Teleport the TSB to Juubito 
4. Teleport the TSB along with Juubito at a further location so that the rest are safe from the blast radius 

These are fkn 4 actions before minato could even decide what to do, 



> *
> 
> These aren't good enough arguments to suggest that Tobirama would undoubtedly win here or that he is superior in this regard. Especially since the latter instance was only done to give Tobirama time to shine, as evident by Kishimoto nerfing NTCM Minato as much as possible. He had his technique formula that was placed on TTJ Obito magically disappear for absolutely no reason, yet let Tobirama's stay, Minato's charge on TTJ Obito was interrupted because he had to protect Naruto and Sasuke unlike Tobirama, * it's stated in Jin no Sho that Minato was emotional when he fought Obito, and he had TTJ Obito remove his arm to hinder his performance for the rest of the battle against TTJ Obito and Madara as well.


 
And the bold is where Yu let your personal bias and completely false excuses cloud and discredit whatever you brought to the table 

Why do you think Tobirama was needed everytime to strike Juubito? Especially when minato also synced his markings to tobirmaas and vice versa? 
I'll tell Yu why, it's because he was fast enough to prevent himself from getting evisceratd, minato wasn't. 

Tobiramas best feat: reacting to Juubito 

Base minatos best feat: reacting to V2 Ay and that was barely, had Ay been any faster, minato would have had his head carved in 

Now unless you think that Juubito is slower than V2 Ay then there is absolutely no argument whatsoever that one could bring to assert that Minato is more reflexive 



> There's also the fact that Tobirama already admitted inferiority in terms of both BF and FTG, and praised Minato for being able to save all of the remaining Allied Shinobi Forces which he couldn't do.



 -- superior BF won't do shit when minatos doesn't even come close to V2 Ay let alone Juubito which Tobirama still reacted to. 

 -- superior BF won't help him in CQC exchange either since you don't use flicker in taijutsu. Its your normal movement speed and reflexive speed 

 -- inferiority in FTG usage only helps in team battles, not here where tobirmaa only needs like 2 markings to dodge any attack minato may pull. 

 -- ability to teleport more people is also completely uselesss in a 1v1 battle 



> Yet, I'm supposed to believe that Tobirama is superior and would beat Minato in a fight? *Clearly Kishimoto wanted Tobirama (who had the worse portrayal out of all of the first four Hokage throughout most of the manga) to shine so he did everything in his power to ensure that Minato was nerfed so that Tobirama could actually do something. But now you have people misinterpreting this and thinking Tobirama is the stronger of the two. *



What's shown in the manga >>>>> all this ridiculous rant. 

1. Tobirama admitting inferiority in FTG mastery and BF doesn't equate to being inferior in strength 

2. Tobirama beats minato because he is physically far superior. It's that simple. Even madara admitted inferiority to him, and this is the same guy who is above Bm naruto (well above base minato) and reacted to V2 Ay at a much difficult scenario as opposed to minato 
Cry all you want but I suggest you stick to actual facts and not some ridiculous denial 



> Jin no Sho even goes out of it's way to further call base Minato the "fastest in god-like speed" and mention how his FTG is perfected and superior to Tobirama's imperfect FTG in Minato's FTG technique entries. So yeah, I'm not buying it and neither should you.


And that was all in relation to FTG 
Not shunshin. Not that it even matters 

Nor does the FTG mastery play any difference since both of their FTG is instant but guess who wins in a clash of S/T users, 

The one who has the superior reactions, as shown by Minato vs Tobi where the latters S/T was far superior yet lost, 
Why? 
*because minato had superior reactions*

Clash of Jin maDara vs SM minato 
SM minato had a much faster technique I.e instant teleportation, but guess who won? Jin Madara raped him 

RT madara vs Tobirama 
Juubito vs KCM minato 
RSM naruto vs Kaguya 

Literally the manga has shoved it down our throats that it's the reactions and striking speed that matter 
Not the jutsu type, mastery or BF.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> BF could only be helpful in evasion
> And even then it's only meaningful if the user *actually has the reactions to pull it off*
> Every CQC exchange requires reactions and superior striking speed to land your blows
> Nothing else
> ...


 I won't bother to give a massive reply to this since I already conceded my argument earlier in regards to Tobirama not being more reflexive. I agree that Tobirama is more reflexive and has superior striking speed to base Minato. However, the instance with NTCM Minato is still an off-panel interception which are consistently inconsistent and illogical. So I disagree with that entirely, in order for you to value that feat you must value everything else I've mentioned before. There's no personal bias either, and you didn't even address what I stated anyway. I also disagree with you saying that Tobirama wins mid diff, that's ridiculous. This is going to be a close fight either way regardless of who wins. Tobirama's superior reflexes and striking speed isn't circumventing all of Minato's FTGK on the battlefield which Minato can use to his advantage. The battlefield is already marked here, so Tobirama has to deal with Minato and his Shadow Clones being able to attack him from any and every single angle and has no means of telling from which direction they would attack.

Madara never admitted inferiority to Tobirama at any point either, so what the hell are you talking about?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (May 5, 2017)

May the 4th be with you!


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> it doesn't change that Tobirama was still more capable as a living person


Suiton + Inferior FTG + INferior Shunshin + Foddeer ET + Kenjutsu + Comparable Sensory + Large Chakra Reserves + Comparable bunshin numbers & usage.

This is Tobirama's resume after his retcon, his previous resume is he force to sacrifice himself didnt even try with 7 person squad agaisnt 20 person ? Capable ?!


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, I do because the manga made it very clear.


Yeh same manga also implies Naruto suprass other hokages (due to kakashi) when he get BSM Mode and RSM Mode.
So manga never implies Pain Arc SM Naruto suprass Minato.. That person was Jiraiya but even that is questionable due to Fukasaku.

Do you really think Rookie SM Naruto >> Hokage Minato or Tobi we dont need to talk man 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ginkaku and Kinkaku


This is never stated. Gin & Kin attacked a Kage Summit. People mix these 2 occasion.
TObirama killed by a 20 shinobi this is how Danzo remember it. And War-Arc. That team named as "Kinkaku Force" So we dont even exactly know ? Kin or Gin was there.

And did ı really have to remind you to this fact which is kin & gin taken by couple of mid-high jonin characters..

Tobirama has Hiruzen who is strong enough to be condiring as Kage, Danzo, 1 Uchiha Jonin, 1 Akimichi Jonin, Tobirama's other students. So you cant save that ridicilous death scenario man. ITs pretty bad.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara didn't view Minato as threatening enough to get rid of like he did with Tobirama. FYI, Madara was aware about Minato and his Yellow Flash rep. That says a lot.


Dude are you high ?

Madara also didnt see  Tobirama as a thread Tobirama attacked him ? He didnt come for Tobirama ! And again "he knows him he has a sharing past with him" . .


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato was the only Hokage to be revived stronger than his living form.


Then This make 20 Shinobi >> Old Hiruzen and Minato and all other kages except Naruto  & Hashirama cuz due to you Alive Tobirama a tier above them.

Yeah you just bend it all manga congrats  Tobirama aint has a rep as hero, legend, same databook (that you loved to refered) also clearly says Hiruzen suprassed Tobirama at his youth (very early days) .. also hiruzen said "ım the strongest of us" .. But same Hiruzen, consider Minato as a true genius and hero.

Like ı said we can ccreate similar cases for both character. You just stick with Madara's statements who has knows nothing about most of the alliance..

And ı can bring opinions about Minato from dudes like Hiruzen, Jiriaya, Minato, Tsunade, Kakashi, Tobirama, 4th Raikage, Killer Bee, Kyuubi, Obito... So nope Tobirama is not tier above Minato.

Hashi >>> Prime Hiru>> Minato > Tobirama.. Manga & databooks refers that pretty certain.. Trying to create a peak alive version for a guy who aint has any feats, any rep, portrayal, enough jutsu and abilities and who has a ridicilous death scenario (ım not take seriously cuz its obviously non-sense but its still there).

Minato was the hero/legend since from 1st chapter of this manga .. I find him much consistent and much more capable.

Aand end of disc. for me.. Thanks for the debate.


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## ARGUS (May 5, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I won't bother to give a massive reply to this since I already conceded my argument earlier in regards to Tobirama not being more reflexive. I agree that Tobirama is more reflexive and has superior striking speed to base Minato.


Ok So then I assume you should logically think that tobirma wins this fight then


> However, the instance with NTCM Minato is still an off-panel interception which are consistently inconsistent and illogical.


Learn what an off panel interception is before you actually use this as an excuse to discredit a feat 

Off panel interception is something that only requires one interaction from an unknown distance. Example, suigetsu blocking Ays strike 

Tobiramas feat wasn't off panel *because we then see him act and outperform Minato when all the latter could do was watch in awe* 

That's not offpanel in any way 



> *
> 
> So I disagree with that entirely, in order for you to value that feat you must value everything else I've mentioned before. There's no personal bias either, and you didn't even address what I stated anyway. *


Lol wtf, 
I addressed every damn sentence 
You then come at me with the half assed excuse that "kishi nerfed minato and that you refuse to accept the facts" 



> I also disagree with you saying that Tobirama wins mid diff, that's ridiculous. This is going to be a close fight either way regardless of who wins. Tobirama's superior reflexes and striking speed isn't circumventing all of Minato's FTGK on the battlefield which Minato can use to his advantage.



Yes it is because without superior reactions and striking speed, he gets tagged whenever they clash 
And once that happens, no matter how many markings Minato may have, he's fkn toast 



> The battlefield is already marked here, so Tobirama has to deal with Minato and his Shadow Clones being able to attack him from any and every single angle and has no means of telling from which direction they would attack.


Tobiramas shadow clones overwhelm minatos just how the original overwhelms him, 
Add 2 edos which give him firepower that blows minatos out of the water, then any clone Minato may have gets blown to smithrens especiallg when Tobirama can prep gojo and then nuke them on minatos face, 

 -- Battlefield being marked is irrelevant when minato can't win by just running away nor does it prevent tobirma from tagging him Because a clash is bound to happen since they both use S/T jutsu 

 -- Minato can't overpower him in CQC 

 -- he can't compete in firepower 

Tagging the likes of Minato is piss easy for a man who tagged Juubito. 
Same happens here and then hiraishingiri one shots 

Yep. It's a mid diff win 




> Madara never admitted inferiority to Tobirama at any point either, so what the hell are you talking about?


Madara admitted that tobirmaa was faster than him during his life.
But now that he "Madara" has the Rinnegan and SM, it was no longer the case
Hence why tobirma got stomped[/quote]


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## hbcaptain (May 5, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> That was a clone
> And Lmao, at least he saved them by taking the TSB away.
> 
> 
> ...


Hiraishin Mawashi needs a direct contact with Juubito in order to activate, and even Tobirama, the original, the goat, the real thing needs a double distraction (the first from Naruto&Sasuke and then Minato's sudden Shunshin/apparition in front of the two heros) in order to achieve his goal :


....Against *an already marked* Juubito.

It's actually a fact Tobirama can't get close to "an aready marked" Juubito alone before getting fodderized. Which means Juubito's reactions are many tiers above Tobirama's which is just normal.

And also mind-full Juubito >>>> mindless Juubito in terms of reaction speed, or maybe he just let Tobirama tag him just he let Naruto using chakra arms. Disregarding this fact is disregarding the manga because we have feats under our bare eyes.



> Tobirama and SM Naruto sure as hell didn't need any distraction to land a Rasengan on Obito.


In the next chapter, Juubito stated he tried to use Kamui in order to phase but the passage was suddenly blocked because of Juubi.
So another time it takes Hiraishin with a marked Juubito + sudden surprise effect in order to touch him.



> He was talking about everyone, not just himself.


How if he can teleport the ones he made contact with thanks to his supposed insane reactions 5 times better divin tier, before the ultra slow Juubito (in comparison) can smatch them.....



> That was a clone
> And Lmao, at least he saved them by taking the TSB away.


Doesn't change the fact that Tobirama, the orginal, the goat was astonished by his insane reaction speed and tought it would be difficult to touch him even while beeing marked + the aid of few super fast allie which goes toe toe with his other feats against Juubito.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Android (May 5, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Hiraishin Mawashi needs a direct contact with Juubito in order to activate, and even Tobirama, the original, the goat, the real thing needs a double distraction (the first from Naruto&Sasuke and then Minato's sudden Shunshin/apparition in front of the two heros) in order to achieve his goal :



They needed to separate him from his TSB, something Tobirama can not do alone.
Tobirama has shown when he teleported the TSB back to Obito that he doesn't need distraction to touch him.

Try to debate with some common sense, but i know that's gonna be hard for you.


hbcaptain said:


> ....Against *an already marked* Juubito.


A juubito* who was marked by Tobirama .*



hbcaptain said:


> It's actually a fact Tobirama can't get close to "an aready marked" Juubito alone before getting fodderized. Which means Juubito's reactions are many tiers above Tobirama's which is just normal.


The Manga disagrees with your horseshit.
It's actually a fact that Tobirama took away the TSB, ported a Juubito returned the TSB at him and then ported both of them away from the team.
No shit Einstein, Juubito reactions are above Tobirama, and everyone else for that matter.


hbcaptain said:


> And also mind-full Juubito >>>> mindless Juubito in terms of reaction speed, or maybe he just let Tobirama tag him just he let Naruto using chakra arms. Disregarding this fact is disregarding the manga because we have feats under our bare eyes.


Juubito didn't let Tobirama tag him, that's the same fanfic BS you keep spewing around.
Naruto didn't react to Obito, he reacted to the extension of the GudoDama.


hbcaptain said:


> In the next chapter, Juubito stated he tried to use Kamui in order to phase but the passage was suddenly blocked because of Juubi.
> So another time it takes Hiraishin with a marked Juubito + sudden surprise effect in order to touch him.


No, he didn't say this, that's your personal BS.
He said that he can't phase anymore, not that he tried to use Kamui but failed.
Juubito didn't even know what happened until he got hit, he didn't try shit.
He already knew he can't phase when they landed the FRS Enton on him.
What he realized in that moment is that Senjutsu works on him.


hbcaptain said:


> How if he can teleport the ones he made contact with thanks to his supposed insane reactions 5 times better divin tier, before the ultra slow Juubito (in comparison) can smatch them.....


Because after Juubito got hit with the Rasengan, he flickered his chakra arms in his back to defend himself genius.
KCM Minato attacked Juubito who didn't have that guard up and he got his arm raped.
So yeah, what Tobirama said applies to everyone.


hbcaptain said:


> Doesn't change the fact that Tobirama, the orginal, the goat was astonished by his insane reaction speed and tought it would be difficult to touch him even while beeing marked + the aid of few super fast allie which goes toe toe with his other feats against Juubito.


He thought that he can't be touched after he put a chakra arms guard behind his back, he already tagged the marked mindfull Juubito when he slamed the TSB back at him using a mere clone.
The rest is the same BS you can't actually support, giving your lack of even the most basic reading comprehension.


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## hbcaptain (May 5, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> A juubito* who was marked by Tobirama .*


I already responded this :
_And also mind-full Juubito >>>> mindless Juubito in terms of reaction speed, or maybe he just let Tobirama tag him just he let Naruto using chakra arms. Disregarding this fact is disregarding the manga because we have feats under our bare eyes._

By feats :
Juubito's reactions >>>>>>> Tobirama's when his mind is full, easily many tiers more reflexive as proven many times.

By feats :
Juubito with his mind away got tagged 5 times by Tobirama with Tobirama's corps hald desintegrated.

Which means mindless Juubito didn't care beeing tagged just like he didn't care about KCM Naruto's chakra arms (and KCM Naruto wasn't half desintegrated like Tobirama)

Multiple feats&hype >>>>> One feat whith a lot of hidden actions (we don't know when Tobirama started tagging Juubito and when the GudoDama started desitegrating Tobirama, because as we know it take some time to charge as per KCM Naruto action and Hiruzen's explaining).



> He said that he can't phase anymore, not that he tried to use Kamui but failed.


And why he stated Kamui was blocked right after Naruto's Rasengan, coincidence ? 



> He already knew he can't phase when they landed the FRS Enton on him.


No, he was surprised phasing can't work "after" Naruto's Senjutsu Rasengan which means he did'nt try to phase in this specific combo. So, stop disregardding the facts.



> KCM Minato attacked Juubito who didn't have that guard up and he got his arm raped.


KCM Minato attacked him with his base move speed (no FTG usage) and got slowed down because of Obito's suddeng gain of consciousness (the "!!?" as a facial reaction) that's why he lost his arm.
All the above feats indicate Tobirama will be fodderized by Juubito. But it seems only the one and only unclear first feat against bestial Juubito matter,... I guess.



> He thought that he can't be touched after he put a chakra arms guard behind his back, he already tagged the marked mindfull Juubito when he slamed the TSB back at him using a mere clone.


That was a surprise attack against an already tagged Juubito (Juubito didn't knew he was tagged), in the action right after he couldn't touch him and need a double distraction in order to achieve Hiraishin Mawashi, the feat you are disregarding right now.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Suiton + Inferior FTG + INferior Shunshin + Foddeer ET + Kenjutsu + Comparable Sensory + Large Chakra Reserves + Comparable bunshin numbers & usage.
> 
> This is Tobirama's resume after his retcon, his previous resume is he force to sacrifice himself didnt even try with 7 person squad agaisnt 20 person ? Capable ?!



I notice you're ignoring all hype/statements because it doesn't favour Minato. Plus "fodder ET" and you're talking about downplaying. 
Also, I don't believe you get the retcon idea. Is it that hard to believe Tobirama could be superior to the point where you must say there's a retconned Tobirama when none exists?
Tobirama fought multiple Jonin and Kin-Gin, a fact you seem to overlook interestingly. 

Let's have a look, Minato has FTG and Rasengan.... Tobirama has FTG, clones, a Senju body, ET, Kenjutsu, and is a better tactician in general. Yeah...


> Yeh same manga also implies Naruto suprass other hokages (due to kakashi) when he get BSM Mode and RSM Mode.
> So manga never implies Pain Arc SM Naruto suprass Minato.. That person was Jiraiya but even that is questionable due to Fukasaku.
> 
> Do you really think Rookie SM Naruto >> Hokage Minato or Tobi we dont need to talk man



I know it is very difficult for Minato fans to accept, but canonically speaking SM Naruto>Minato. That is why Minato was revived stronger than he was when he was alive.

You mean the manga which had pre-Hokage Kakashi say Naruto truly surpassed all Hokage (including Hashirama) with RSM? Now you're doing some Hussien level shit like saying anytime Minato was mentioned it means he wasn't surpassed.

Just because you can't accept Jiraiya and Minato were surpassed by Pain arc Naruto doesn't diminish it. Fukasaku believed Naruto skill with SM and Frog Kata was good enough to put him above Minato and Jiraiya. That's like Itachi fans ignoring Itachi when he said that the MS is the sole reason Sasuke wouldn't beat him.



> This is never stated. Gin & Kin attacked a Kage Summit. People mix these 2 occasion.
> TObirama killed by a 20 shinobi this is how Danzo remember it. And War-Arc. That team named as "Kinkaku Force" So we dont even exactly know ? Kin or Gin was there.
> 
> And did ı really have to remind you to this fact which is kin & gin taken by couple of mid-high jonin characters..
> ...



Except Shikamaru said Kinkaku was one of the people who killed the second Hokage. The group that killed him were called the Kinkaku squad.  It seems you've got a habit of forgetting things which don't favour Minato.

Prime Hiruzen was stronger than the Hokage before him though, it just happens to be that the Hiruzen wasn't at his prime yet. I'm beginning to think you didn't think some of these things through.



> Dude are you high ?
> 
> Madara also didnt see  Tobirama as a thread Tobirama attacked him ? He didnt come for Tobirama ! And again "he knows him he has a sharing past with him" . .



Madara clearly told Obito he waited till the Yellow Flash was on a mission before staging Rin's death. He knew Minato and didn't think high of him like the Senju bros.



> Then This make 20 Shinobi >> Old Hiruzen and Minato and all other kages except Naruto  & Hashirama cuz due to you Alive Tobirama a tier above them.



Not quite, but you're finding it hard to believe Tobirama>Minato so you're trying every trick in the book to reverse that.


> Yeah you just bend it all manga congrats  Tobirama aint has a rep as hero, legend, same databook (that you loved to refered) also clearly says Hiruzen suprassed Tobirama at his youth (very early days) .. also hiruzen said "ım the strongest of us" .. But same Hiruzen, consider Minato as a true genius and hero.



The only one bending the manga is you who a] can't remember the right details and b] are distorting things which don't favour Minato.

Hiruzen considered Minato a genius and hero, not the strongest. I have no issues with prime Hiruzen>Tobirama like you have with Tobirama>Minato.



> Like ı said we can ccreate similar cases for both character. You just stick with Madara's statements who has knows nothing about most of the alliance..



You tried and you showed your case for Minato rested on faulty facts, so you pretty much can't make the same case.



> And ı can bring opinions about Minato from dudes like Hiruzen, Jiriaya, Minato, Tsunade, Kakashi, Tobirama, 4th Raikage, Killer Bee, Kyuubi, Obito... So nope Tobirama is not tier above Minato.



Except no-one spoke about Minato's strength, except A. Even then, Madara who faced both of them implied Tobirama>Minato. Tobirama said Minato was faster, not stronger. Talk about bending the manga. 



> Hashi >>> Prime Hiru>> Minato > Tobirama.. Manga & databooks refers that pretty certain.. Trying to create a peak alive version for a guy who aint has any feats, any rep, portrayal, enough jutsu and abilities and who has a ridicilous death scenario (ım not take seriously cuz its obviously non-sense but its still there).
> 
> Minato was the hero/legend since from 1st chapter of this manga .. I find him much consistent and much more capable.
> 
> Aand end of disc. for me.. Thanks for the debate.



No manga page, apart from one character, talks about Minato's strength. The pages support Tobirama>Minato. The manga does the same as well. In fact, the manga supports SM Naruto>Minato (base) and you're choosing to ignore that.

You're not taking Tobirama's death scenario seriously because you know you're making it up -- you're excluding the 2 Kyuubi guys in the group.

Minato can be a hero and legend, but it doesn't make him stronger than Tobirama.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Plus "fodder ET" and you're talking about downplaying.





GuidingThunder said:


> Tobirama has 2 fodder ET to use GKF


I wasnt try to downplay.. I just reflected the OP !

Plus War - Arc Oroc >> Kabuto >>> P1 Oroc in terms of Edo Tensei usage and Tobirama even worse then these guys.. You do the math.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I notice you're ignoring all hype/statements because it doesn't favour Minato


No ı dont ignore but when he get into hype & Statements Minato > Tobirama. So noticing them aint gonna change a fact thats why ı can say the samething for ya.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I know it is very difficult for Minato fans to accept, but canonically speaking SM Naruto>Minato. That is why Minato was revived stronger than he was when he was alive.


  Nice creative work here. 

Tobirama not revived stronger than his alive version ha ? at least as a retcon ? still denying that. His free p-up is pretty damn obivous as Minato and again same manga clearly portrayed Naruto above other hokages when he gets BSM & RSM .. And Kakashi also assimilate naruto to Yondaime when he gets in BM mode. And Killer Bee saw Yellow Flash in him when ge get im KCM (same as Ay) SO Pain Arc SM Naruto > Pain.. Its your implication not a fact. And and Naruto compared with his dad his every gear up. never said "he suprassed ".. until BSM & RSM. 

SM -> Seeing Minato & Jiraiya in him -> aint make him > Minato
KCM -> Seeing Minato in him by Tsunade, Raikage, Yamato & Killer Bee -> aint made him > Minato 
BM -> Seeing Minato in him by Kakashi -> didnt say he suprassed
and finally
BSM -> Yes he suprassed finally 
But somehow due to you he suprassed at first occasion  Which is never implied or stated  But after all this is your bending show  

So good luch with you own fanfic theory  Pain Arc SM Naruto > Hokage Minato   


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> you're excluding the 2 Kyuubi guys in the group.


Gave me the exact proof. Plus He had 1 Kage 5 Jonin level support ?! TObirama + Hiruzen + 5 Mid Jonin (at least) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ino Shika Cho + Darui + Kitsuchi + Choza

Its not helping at all dude. 
So showing madara even more stronger try to push up Tobirama ? Keep goin sir. You're gonna reach some day.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> implied Tobirama>Minato.


  Nice ... interesting actually 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except Shikamaru said Kinkaku was one of the people who killed the second Hokage.


So Kinkaku + 19 Kurenai / Asuma / Zabuza (at most) >> 1 High (due to you) who has FTG, ET & KB + 1 Mid kage + 5 mid Jonin.

And yeah Shikamaru is a historical information source suddenly   

So you just caring Shikamaru & Madara's words interesting mix though  

Whatever.... I was take you seriously at 1-2 message you're good but that Rookie SM Naruto > Minato and Madara implies Tobirama >> Minato cracked me up a bit.. So ım over with that topic..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2017)

I'm going to wait till you cite actual manga/databook points before we proceed.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Ok So then I assume you should logically think that tobirma wins this fight then


 I actually lean towards Minato. 



> Learn what an off panel interception is before you actually use this as an excuse to discredit a feat
> 
> Off panel interception is something that only requires one interaction from an unknown distance. Example, suigetsu blocking Ays strike
> 
> ...


 Tobirama getting there so fast in the first place was an off-panel interception, and he was only able to teleport the TSB back to TTJ Obito due to FTG. So him moving significantly faster than NTCM Minato was based on him being off-panel, and him teleporting to Obito was cause he had FTG. Minato could've done the exact same thing if he had tagged Obito too. Any time any FTG user has a tag on someone they easily outperform those who who don't, Minato did the same thing when he slit Obito's throat before Tobirama or anyone else could reach him.




> Lol wtf,
> I addressed every damn sentence
> You then come at me with the half assed excuse that "kishi nerfed minato and that you refuse to accept the facts"


 Why did Minato's marker disappear but Tobirama's didn't? Why did Kishimoto state in Jin no Sho that Minato was emotional when fighting Obito? Why did Kishimoto decide to have Minato lose arm which hindered his performance for the whole battle but not Tobirama? Calling it an "excuse" is not a counter argument, either give a legitimate response or don't bother to reply at all. 





> Yes it is because without superior reactions and striking speed, he gets tagged whenever they clash
> And once that happens, no matter how many markings Minato may have, he's fkn toast


 Tobirama's reflexes and striking speed aren't so much greater that Minato is going to get blitzed and one-shotted. 




> Tobiramas shadow clones overwhelm minatos just how the original overwhelms him,
> Add 2 edos which give him firepower that blows minatos out of the water, then any clone Minato may have gets blown to smithrens especiallg when Tobirama can prep gojo and then nuke them on minatos face,


  Tobirama can't use that without blowing himself up at short-range, he'd have to use it from afar some how and that will be difficult with Minato attacking him from all angles.



> -- Battlefield being marked is irrelevant when minato can't win by just running away nor does it prevent tobirma from tagging him Because a clash is bound to happen since they both use S/T jutsu


 Tobirama is not casually dealing with Minato coming at him from any or every angle when he doesn't know where he will come from. Not to mention Minato can move much faster than Tobirama can so if does need to evade him for some time to rethink a strategy he can do so. 



> -- Minato can't overpower him in CQC


 True



> -- he can't compete in firepower


 That doesn't mean much.



> Tagging the likes of Minato is piss easy for a man who tagged Juubito.
> Same happens here and then hiraishingiri one shots
> 
> Yep. It's a mid diff win


 Obito can't instantly teleport away with a thought though, and Minato is pretty resilient so slashing through his stomach won't instantly kill him. T





> Madara admitted that tobirmaa was faster than him during his life.
> But now that he "Madara" has the Rinnegan and SM, it was no longer the case
> Hence why tobirma got stomped


[/QUOTE] That in no way means that Tobirama was stronger than Madara. Hashirama and Madara were clearly still much stronger, and Tobirama being stated to be fastest of his era is primarily due to FTG.


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## uchihakil (May 12, 2017)

> Speed - minato (tobirama admitted inferiority nuff said)
> Reactions - tobirama (reacted to juubito all while at not 100% peek power)
> Intelligence - tobirama (figured out Senjutsu is juubitos weakness eventhough he didnt use it while minato did)
> Fuinjutsu - minato (learned his sealing techniques from a clan known for their sealing
> Experience - tobirama (grew up in war fighting the second strongest and most dangerous clan)
> Versatility - tobirama (has more water style techniques as well as kinjutsu he invented)
> Stamina/chakra reserve - tobirama (is a senju by default has a large chakra pool + grew up fighting so his chakra should be more potent)
> Summon - Minato 

Tobirama edges put IMO because;

1- this is a battle of intelligence because they posses the same moveset, so its all bout who makes the smarter move

2- Tobirama had been fighting all his life, meaning he had been in more disadvantageous position than minato (against the second strongest clan)

3- were minato edges out wont be of much help to him in this battle (summons wont hinder tobirama cuz he's too fast for the, they could'nt even tag tendou who is inferior to tobirama in speed), likewise the speed advantage minato has, tobirama has displayed reactions that makes minatos speed a joke.

So yes i see tobirama winning more times than not

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> figured out Senjutsu


Actually Naruto did that and Tobirama saw thru

Hiruzen explained how tsb works first, tobirama understand senjutsu counter and minato figure it out tsb's flying range

So 3 Hokages solve their part equally. 
So how Tobirama win with that in terms of intelligence ?


uchihakil said:


> Versatility - tobirama (has more water style techniques as well as kinjutsu he invented)


? SUiton + Kenjutsu = More Versatile ?

How about better FTG usage
Pretty much better fujinjutsu proficiency
Barrier proficiecny
Access to toad jutsus
Toads
Senjutsu
Rasengan
Better Shunshin
And better portrayal as prodigy 
And couple of elements

Only thing Tobirama add on all this his unfinished ET. And you didnt even mentioned.


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## uchihakil (May 12, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Actually Naruto did that and Tobirama saw thru
> 
> Hiruzen explained how tsb works first, tobirama understand senjutsu counter and minato figure it out tsb's flying range
> 
> ...



> What toad jutsus has he shown? 
> SM, dude never went SM in a fight when he was alive and without a team to back him up and he definately aint going in SM against someone as fast as tobirama 
> naming his entire arsenal is not gonna make minato more versatile (naming jutsu wise tobirama has more techniques more elemental techniques, more kinjutsu)

And no tobirama equally figured out the oil technique was'nt negated thus while he was more cooperative than minato was eventhough the latter uses senjutsu (and what makes you think tobirama could'nt/didnt figure out the range???) not only did minato saw more of tsb while madara was using it against them but he also figured it out after he was with tobirama meaning if tobirama saw tsb as much as minato did nothing can prove he could'nt figure out the range.


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> What toad jutsus has he shown


He dont have to ? Those jutsus are performed by toads ?! He just need to summon ! 
I dont think he is able to use gamaguchi shibari or kaeru kaeru.. But gamahyoro, gama rinsho, oil release, gamayu endan these are not totaly up to Jiraiya ! 



uchihakil said:


> SM, dude never went SM in a fight when he was alive and without a team to back him up and he definately aint going in SM against someone as fast as tobirama


I  didnt say anything about "his sm is good is gonna demolish Tobirama" I just try to say that dude even mastered at SM (at some level) which is pinnacle of all ninjutsu ! This is shows versatility and  how much chakra reserve Minato has ? He died at 24 he didnt able to acheived perfectly but that doesnt mean he is not qualified
YOu just looking into things directly dude.




uchihakil said:


> naming his entire arsenal is not gonna make minato more versatile


I didnt named his entire arsenal ı didnt give specific jutsu names ı just lined up his assets and yes thats means versatility.. And better than saying "Suiton + Kenjutsu" geesh  

and last part of your post just mambling .. All 3 Hokage solved different puzzle part about Juubi Jincs.. Tobirama can edge out only with that ım just said this.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 12, 2017)

I like how Minato's hype apparently counts as a tool to prove he's versatile?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TrollbitoUchiha (May 12, 2017)

Very close fight, but Minato wins at extreme diff.

Both are fast and rely on speed tricks. Minato is said to be faster and it will show in this fight. After the two warp around for most of the match and strike each other a few times, Minato's super speed comes into play and he hits Tobirama with the rasengan.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 12, 2017)

TrollbitoUchiha said:


> Very close fight, but Minato wins at extreme diff.
> 
> Both are fast and rely on speed tricks. Minato is said to be faster and it will show in this fight. After the two warp around for most of the match and strike each other a few times, Minato's super speed comes into play and he hits Tobirama with the rasengan.



If that's the case who do you think is going to get tagged first in a CQC exchange? Tobirama will easily tag minato first
How has this manga shown numerous times to counter faster opponents? Sensing & reflexes...Guess who wins this again
Who is a better tactician and superior in intelligence? Tobirama once again

So if they spend the majority of the fight "warping" around how does this give Minato the advantage....

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Trojan (May 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> > Reactions - tobirama (reacted to juubito all while at not 100% peek power)


Minato reacted to Gai who is faster than Asspulldara who is faster than full power Obito who is faster than retard form Obito.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Trojan (May 12, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I like how Minato's hype apparently counts as a tool to prove he's versatile?


He is more versatile than Tobirama by feats.


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## Trojan (May 12, 2017)

@The Death & The Strawberry


Just curious, did you disagree and dislike because of "facts" in the manga that I disagreed with.
Or just out of butthurtness?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (May 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> @The Death & The Strawberry
> 
> 
> Just curious, did you disagree and dislike because of "facts" in the manga that I disagreed with.
> Or just out of butthurtness?


Interception feat=/=reaction feat, unless 6 gate Lee's kunais>8 gates guy speed? I also wouldn't be talking about "butthurtness"(lol) when you dislike or disagree with anything that isn't sucking minato off completely


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## Trojan (May 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Interception feat=/=reaction feat, unless 6 gate Lee's kunais>8 gates guy speed?



So, we can't take Tobirama's "feat" either. Unless Asspulldara/ Kin&Gin >> JJ Obito? 


fair enough. 

So, now we have disregard both "feats" (Minato & 8th Gates Gai) and (Tobirama and Obito)


What about the other post? 

Was it out of butthurtness, or facts? 




> I also wouldn't be talking about "butthurtness"(lol) when you dislike or disagree with anything that isn't sucking minato off completely




Nope, I do it when those posts are either too stupid or contradict the manga. 
That's why I am asking you now to see which one it is on your view.


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## Serene Grace (May 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> So, we can't take Tobirama's "feat" either. Unless Asspulldara/ Kin&Gin >> JJ Obito?
> 
> 
> fair enough.
> ...


Yes the other one was out of butthurtness, I'm sorryI'll remove them just now

Reactions: Funny 1


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## hbcaptain (May 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> So, we can't take Tobirama's "feat" either. Unless Asspulldara/ Kin&Gin >> JJ Obito?
> 
> 
> fair enough.
> ...


This.

In addition, Sakizou is about 5 air canon with 5 levels of speed corresponding for each by deffinition :

*Spoiler*: _4th Databook_ 



Evening Elephant (Sekizou) (p. 263)
A-rank; Offensive; Close-range
User: Might Guy

“A Surge of Violently Burning Life——The “Eight Celestial Gates” Ultimate Secret!!

Releasing one’s power remitters to draw out power until the utmost limit, by opening the “Eight Gates Released Formation”, The Eighth Gate [Gate of Death], this taijutsu can be activated. For a moment, (one is) able to gain power even greater than the 5 kage (combined) however, the jutsu-caster will definitely reach death after its use — a double-edged sword. It is actually a super-speed hit/strike in air, a hitting (offensive) air-cannon.

*There are *1 to 5 levels (steps, phases) of speed; raising the gear will increase the power.*

(Guy vs Madara): Hitting out with unstoppable speed before the eyes, a great barrage of attacks in the face of death (to certain-death)! Might Guy had unleashed “Evening Elephant”, and overwhelmed even Madara who had become the Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki.”



Which mean Gossuki won't be Gossuku without its incredible speed far superior to JJ and Minato reacted to that.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## uchihakil (May 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Minato reacted to Gai who is faster than Asspulldara who is faster than full power Obito who is faster than retard form Obito.



Yea lee, gaara and kakashi are all faster because they also reacted, GuidingThunder already explained this, if you still dont get it, its just you being dense, and i dont know whats with you and ma boy madara but well "maayi" madara still shits on your fave

Reactions: Funny 2


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## uchihakil (May 12, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> He dont have to ? Those jutsus are performed by toads ?! He just need to summon !
> I dont think he is able to use gamaguchi shibari or kaeru kaeru.. But gamahyoro, gama rinsho, oil release, gamayu endan these are not totaly up to Jiraiya !
> 
> 
> ...



minato's moves wont even help him in this case, there is no way any toad is gonna help him fight tobirama when they could'nt even tag tendou who not only posses less speed but at the same time does'nt have ftg. And he wont get the chance to summon the elder toads cuz they take time to summon, whatelse? Speed huh, countered that also, tobirama reacted to opponents much faster than KCM minato >>>>>> Alive minato, so munato's edge in speed is nothing thats going to change the outcome of the battle. 

And stop with the puzzle thingy, hiruzen just showed how wise he was, minato had more time to observe tsb more than tobirama cuz he faced juudara so saying minato figured out his piece means shit when you cant prove tobirama with equal time can't, but we have a clear cut feat of who was smarter in the instance tobi figured how tsb worked, because both were present at the sametime and saw the whole thing

Reactions: Funny 1


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## hbcaptain (May 12, 2017)

@uchihakil we havee a clear explenation why Gai used his full speed there is nothing to add. If you won't to blame someone blame Kishi's inconsistency and that's it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (May 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Yea lee, gaara and kakashi are all faster because they also reacted, GuidingThunder already explained this, if you still dont get it, its just you being dense, and i dont know whats with you and ma boy madara but well "maayi" madara still shits on your fave



And your point is?

Are you saying you take a reaction feat as ligament whenever you like it, and when it does not make sense to you, we must drop it? 

Also, both Gaara and Kakashi addressed this issue in the manga, and it was explicitly stated that Minato will give them his Kunais  to teleport them. So, no, they have nothing to do with them going there before Gai on themselves, it's because of Minato teleporting them. 



> its just you being dense



More like you using double standards. 
or your lack of reading comprehension. 




Gaara: you mean to TRANSPORT kakashi with my sand?
but my sand *IS NOT FAST* enough

so, don't act as if Kishi ignore that. He was well aware of this, and that's why he had Minato do the job. 



> madara still shits on your fave



Not when my favorite is Black Zetsu.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## uchihakil (May 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> And your point is?
> 
> Are you saying you take a reaction feat as ligament whenever you like it, and it's not when it does not make sense to you, we must drop it?
> 
> ...



You just showed me a pic of when minato figured out the range (that was when he was facing madara) so how tf does that make him smarter since tobirama did'nt witness the samething?? What makes you think tobirama wont figure it out??? thats not how it works dude. Witnessing the samething and figuring how to get around it and having the sametime is what makes tobirama smarter. 

And also, there exist feats that are outliers and cant be taken seriously, like ohnoki tanking a meteor to the head and the minato reacting to sekizo (this dude was getting blitzed by madara with zero reactions, and this same dude is seen reacting to someone faster than madara???) shit does'nt add up and its common sense therefore an outlier

And assuming BZ is your fave, your fave is a bitch, cant face real men, instead was hiding behind and backstabbing REAL MEN!!!!! stuff like this happen in wars, a punk gets lucky, oh well maayi, madara shits on your other faves though (you know this, thats why you could'nt call out your real fave)


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## uchihakil (May 12, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> @uchihakil we havee a clear explenation why Gai used his full speed there is nothing to add. If you won't to blame someone blame Kishi's inconsistency and that's it.



Yea its kishi's fault, but it does'nt change the fact that its an outlier, stuff like those exist, like as i said, ohnoki tanking a meteor slam. But we take the more consistent feats of a character, not the outlier feats


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## Trojan (May 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> You just showed me a pic of when minato figured out the range (that was when he was facing madara) so how tf does that make him smarter since tobirama did'nt witness the samething?? What makes you think tobirama wont figure it out??? thats not how it works dude. Witnessing the samething and figuring how to get around it and having the sametime is what makes tobirama smarter.
> 
> And also, there exist feats that are outliers and cant be taken seriously, like ohnoki tanking a meteor to the head and the minato reacting to sekizo (this dude was getting blitzed by madara with zero reactions, and this same dude is seen reacting to someone faster than madara???) shit does'nt add up and its common sense therefore an outlier
> 
> And assuming BZ is your fave, your fave is a bitch, cant face real men, instead was hiding behind and backstabbing REAL MEN!!!!! stuff like this happen in wars, a punk gets lucky, oh well maayi, madara shits on your other faves though (you know this, thats why you could'nt call out your real fave)



- Where the fuck did I wrote anything about "smartness" exactly? 
you just pulled something out of your ****, and then you started arguing against it!!!! 


- So is your beloved Tobirama then.  since this whole "explosive tags" and "FTG mark" happened off-panel. At least in Minato's case it HEAVILY implies that he is capable of doing it just fine because of all of the discussion beforehand with Gaara and the others. Kishi was telling us that Minato IS able to do that unlike the others and that's why they needed it. Had it been just because of "outliers" then Kishi would have Gaara using his sand on his own, and he wouldn't have wasted the time having Lee entering the 6th Gate.

I know people are getting salty over this, but all of the build up BEFORE that feat happened suggests otherwise. Kishi did NOT ignore Gai's speed, he did take it into consideration, and that's why he did all the other shit.

An outliest feat would be something like this



No build up, no hype, no feats, no nothing. Suigetsu and Jugo just became fast out of nowhere to save Sasuke's ass.


Meanwhile, Minato, who was for the most part known as the fastest character in the manga, the Yellow Flash, with lots of hype and feats and with the build up before hand, doing something that his character is all about (being fast) is an outlier?? What kind of rubbish is this! 



> And assuming BZ is your fave, your fave is a bitch, cant face real men,



Well, seeing how Asspulldara got a forced sex change and turn into a woman, I guess he can still defeat women. 




> madara shits on your other faves though


Not when my other favorite is lee.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## uchihakil (May 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> - Where the fuck did I wrote anything about "smartness" exactly?
> you just pulled something out of your ****, and then you started arguing against it!!!!
> 
> 
> ...




Whether you like it or not, its an OUTLIER, minato does'nt have other consistent feats for us to consider that as a feat (of being able to react to someone like 8 gates guy that is), but the consistent feats are of him getting tagged by JJ's which are inferior to guy in speed, how hard is that to grasp, hell kunai speed should be faster than tsb by your logic, Again the feats used in manga are the more consistent ones. So you can dick ride that feat all you want but its still an outlier, OUT LI ER !!!!!  

And you bragging with that lee feat? madara letting small fries tagging him cuz he didnt give a darn bout their actions as they were all beneath him and wont change anything


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## Trojan (May 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Nope the thing is, minato has more feats that contradict that one feat you are dick riding, while tobirama does'nt


OUT LI ER!!!! 


Whether you like it or not. U_U


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## hbcaptain (May 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Nope the thing is, minato has more feats that contradict that one feat you are dick riding, while tobirama does'nt


He does, actually he needs a double distraction (KCM Naruto&EMS Sasuke moves + KCM Minato's sudden Shunshin) in order to touch an already marked Juubito :

This is the clearest feat, 

There is also some statements like himself beeing impressed by Juubito's insane reactions when he blocked GudoDama point blank, or when he said Juubito will atomize him instantly if he jumps behind him as he did before, and so on.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> He is more versatile than Tobirama by feats.



By feats sure, but by manga probably not. 

Besides, base Minato was surpassed by SM Naruto and was brought back stronger than he was alive, and Tobirama wasn't brought back at full power. That certainly says a lot.


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## Trojan (May 12, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> By feats sure, but by manga probably not.
> 
> Besides, base Minato was surpassed by SM Naruto and was brought back stronger than he was alive, and Tobirama wasn't brought back at full power. That certainly says a lot.



- bring us that portrayal then. 

- If Naruto surpassed Minato, then he surpassed Tobirama who is weaker than Minato. 



> Tobirama wasn't brought back at full power.


Tell the good news to your mother. 

So, what's Tobirama's full power, enlighten us with it?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 15, 2017)

Hussain said:


> - bring us that portrayal then.
> 
> - If Naruto surpassed Minato, then he surpassed Tobirama who is weaker than Minato.



Madara's remark, Tobirama's jutsu inventions are very big things. Plus being brought back weaker while Minato had to be brought back stronger doesn't bode well for Minato. I doubt Minato was even on prime Hiruzen level when he was alive.

Except Tobirama is stronger than Minato, so when SM Naruto did surpass Minato he got closer to Tobirama's level. If what you say is true, Kishi would've brought Tobirama back with a buff like he did with Minato. Minato's level was so low for the ultra mega tiers that he needed to be brought back as a Jinchuriki.

Or do you still think RSM Naruto surpassed Minato?  You want to say that The Last is when Naruto reached the level to surpass Minato.  Perhaps, you'd like to say that Minato could've soloed Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Toneri? 



> Tell the good news to your mother.
> 
> So, what's Tobirama's full power, enlighten us with it?



The guy who can't make a solid Minato argument wants me to go into details. How rich. 

You can't dispute the manga fact, Madara clearly said that Tobirama and Hashirama weren't brought back at their peak levels. Unlike Minato who he really couldn't care less about, though why would Madara care about a guy who was surpassed by SM Naruto.


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## Troyse22 (May 15, 2017)

Hussain said:


> So, what's Tobirama's full power, enlighten us with it?



Get negged by Kinkaku and Ginkaku

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Trojan (May 16, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara's remark, Tobirama's jutsu inventions are very big things. Plus being brought back weaker while Minato had to be brought back stronger doesn't bode well for Minato. I doubt Minato was even on prime Hiruzen level when he was alive.



Where are is the hype that Tobirama has tons of moves? Show pages, or don't waste our time.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except Tobirama is stronger than Minato, so when SM Naruto did surpass Minato he got closer to Tobirama's level. If what you say is true, Kishi would've brought Tobirama back with a buff like he did with Minato. Minato's level was so low for the ultra mega tiers that he needed to be brought back as a Jinchuriki.


Proof that Tobirama is stronger when the guy admitted inferiority at every turn. 
Where was it stated "Naruto surpassed Minato and now he is closer to Tobirama's level" I hope you did not bring that out of your .... 

The rest is worthless rubbish tbh. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or do you still think RSM Naruto surpassed Minato?  You want to say that The Last is when Naruto reached the level to surpass Minato.  Perhaps, you'd like to say that Minato could've soloed Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Toneri?



It's amazing how you LOVE to distract the debate when you have no proof, isn't it? 

Proof of Tobirama's being stronger/having more jutsu. Or stop wasting our time.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The guy who can't make a solid Minato argument wants me to go into details. How rich.
> 
> You can't dispute the manga fact, Madara clearly said that Tobirama and Hashirama weren't brought back at their peak levels. Unlike Minato who he really couldn't care less about, though why would Madara care about a guy who was surpassed by SM Naruto.



Indeed, how rich, and ironic.  
you can't even do a shallow argument, let alone going into details. 


- Yeah, yeah, yeah. We heard that a million time from you. Now, bring us ONE incident where it was stated that Tobirama is better than Minato at anything. 

Because unless you are blind (very likely) the manga stated otherwise. For someone who takes everything at face value, you sound very hypocritical, don't you think?


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## Troyse22 (May 16, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Where are is the hype that Tobirama has tons of moves? Show pages, or don't waste our time.
> 
> 
> Proof that Tobirama is stronger when the guy admitted inferiority at every turn.
> ...




Inb4 someone says some bullshit about his Suitons that are trash in comparison to Kisame and to a lesser degree, Yagura.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (May 16, 2017)

This thread


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## Trojan (May 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Inb4 someone says some bullshit about his Suitons that are trash in comparison to Kisame and to a lesser degree, Yagura.


When it comes to Tobirama. Fanfiction is at its peak.

1- Water-style that is stronger than Kisame. 
2- His chakra is so great that it cracked the wall (even if you explain to them that it's Hashi's)

And then we go to the realm of fanfiction about his suppose jutsu (that are based on nothing) or his fighting-style that will
100% different than the one we saw in the manga.


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## Troyse22 (May 16, 2017)

Hussain said:


> When it comes to Tobirama. Fanfiction is at its peak.
> 
> 1- Water-style that is stronger than Kisame.
> 2- His chakra is so great that it cracked the wall (even if you explain to them that it's Hashi's)
> ...




Didn't Tobirama crack the wall when he flexed his chakra? It was after Tobirama was trash talking or am I misremembering?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 17, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Where are is the hype that Tobirama has tons of moves? Show pages, or don't waste our time.



Databook hype saying Minato has lots of jutsu is okay, but manga and databook hype saying the same about Tobirama is worthless.




> Proof that Tobirama is stronger when the guy admitted inferiority at every turn.
> Where was it stated "Naruto surpassed Minato and now he is closer to Tobirama's level" I hope you did not bring that out of your ....
> 
> The rest is worthless rubbish tbh.



Basically, the rest you have no counters so you avoid the points. 
Tobirama admitted inferiority on every turn about from speed? I want to know your definition as by your logic, if Minato is compared to Naruto: he's not been surpassed.



> It's amazing how you LOVE to distract the debate when you have no proof, isn't it?
> 
> Proof of Tobirama's being stronger/having more jutsu. Or stop wasting our time.



Have you heard about pot-kettle? I get standards in the section dropped, but even you must realise the irony of saying that. "Love to distract from the debate" comes from the same guy who can't stick to the points made, can't address the points made and spams emoticons in place of actual arguments. XD

I provide the same level of evidence you do with your Minato arguments... interesting how you deem that to be insufficient.  


> Indeed, how rich, and ironic.
> you can't even do a shallow argument, let alone going into details.



I really cannot be the only person seeing the irony here.



> - Yeah, yeah, yeah. We heard that a million time from you. Now, bring us ONE incident where it was stated that Tobirama is better than Minato at anything.



Minato was brought back stronger and Tobirama was brought back weaker, you have no way to counter this. Especially when Madara put more weight on the Senju reputation over tye Yellow flash.



> Because unless you are blind (very likely) the manga stated otherwise. For someone who takes everything at face value, you sound very hypocritical, don't you think?



Can you really talk about being blind when you still ignore Fukasaku's remark about SM Naruto>base Minato? Or Madara's comment about the Senju bros not being brought back at their peak? To go the other way, any time you hear Minato mentioned you think he isn't surpassed... I'm still waiting to see what you'd think if RSM Naruto took a dump and it was compared to Minato's dump.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Databook hype saying Minato has lots of jutsu is okay, but manga and databook hype saying the same about Tobirama is worthless.


Where did anyone mention the Databook when it comes to Minato tho? 
And you still failed to bring anything.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Basically, the rest you have no counters so you avoid the points.
> Tobirama admitted inferiority on every turn about from speed? I want to know your definition as by your logic, if Minato is compared to Naruto: he's not been surpassed.



- you have no point to be avoided, to begin with. ck
you keep jumping from a topic to topic because you are unable to give any proof of the rubbish you claim. 

> Tell him to bring a proof of *Tobirama's* superiority
> oh b-b-but SM *Naruto*.... 

- What does not Tobirama have besides his speed? 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Have you heard about pot-kettle? I get standards in the section dropped, but even you must realise the irony of saying that. "Love to distract from the debate" comes from the same guy who can't stick to the points made, can't address the points made and spams emoticons in place of actual arguments. XD
> 
> I provide the same level of evidence you do with your Minato arguments... interesting how you deem that to be insufficient.



I won't address garbage that is not related to the topic. 
We are talking about Tobirama and Minato, and you keep bringing Naruto. I don't know how dense can one guy be. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I really cannot be the only person seeing the irony here.



you are. Because it's all in your head. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato was brought back stronger and Tobirama was brought back weaker, you have no way to counter this. Especially when Madara put more weight on the Senju reputation over tye Yellow flash.



And? 
Tobirama admitted that Minato is better than him in Shunshin and FTG. I know it hurts you so much, but that's how it. Sorry. :blu
You have no way to prove Tobirama wrong. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Can you really talk about being blind when you still ignore Fukasaku's remark about SM Naruto>base Minato? Or Madara's comment about the Senju bros not being brought back at their peak? To go the other way, any time you hear Minato mentioned you think he isn't surpassed... I'm still waiting to see what you'd think if RSM Naruto took a dump and it was compared to Minato's dump.



Again with SM Naruto. 


Please, check an eye doctor. This is *TOBIRAMA* and Minato.
Not SM Naruto. Really pathetic. 



- Give us that Tobirama's full power or GTFO.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 17, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Where did anyone mention the Databook when it comes to Minato tho?
> And you still failed to bring anything.
> 
> 
> ...



I'm waiting for you to make an actual argument, not go haywire the moment you see a thread where its suggested a character>Minato.

Then again, I'm talking to the guy who thinks Fukasaku was talking about surpassing Minato in Sage Mode.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm waiting for you to make an actual argument, not go haywire the moment you see a thread where its suggested a character>Minato.
> 
> Then again, I'm talking to the guy who thinks Fukasaku was talking about surpassing Minato in Sage Mode.



That's my line. Unless you are planning to put an argument for TOBIRAMA, stop wasting everyone's time.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 17, 2017)

Hussain said:


> That's my line. Unless you are planning to put an argument for TOBIRAMA, stop wasting everyone's time.



The arguments are presented, but you've yet to provide an argument as to why Minato>Tobirama. When you actually make an argument, then we can carry on.

Also, FYI keyboard warrioring doesn't help your stance, in fact, it leads me to think that you are aware that (as per most Minato threads) you have no real argument. At least, that's what anyone would think when one's arguments consist of more emoticon than text.


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