# The Official Narusaku/SasuSaku/Naruhina Debate Thread! (MANGA MUST BE TAGGED)



## halfhearted (Aug 6, 2008)

*Rules

1. This thread is for debating about NaruHina, NaruSaku, and SasuSaku only.

Do not bring up other pairings in here (not even NaruSasu/SasuNaru). 

Do not bring up fanfiction in here.

Do not bring up fanart in here.

Do not bring up fillers in here.

Do not bring up theories in here.

Do not use this thread as your own soapbox. 

The canon evidence is the only thing that matters so stick to that when debating.

Binary

Stay out of the thread if you are not here to debate.

Binary

2. Spamming is not tolerated

This includes responses like the following:

"*insert spam here*"

"On-topic: Sakura "

"I think it will be Tonton. "

"This will be interesting..."

Also mentions of orgies derail the thread so we can't allow that. 

If we see any of this your posts will be deleted and if we notice a habit we will slash your post count. 

Do not link to essays in your reply to posts, if you have something to say in response to another post, please post your thoughts. Just no one-liners.

3. No flaming

This is really a no brainer. Attack the argument, not the person. If we see this you will be banned. If you continue to repeat the actions you will probably just be section banned from the HoU for a long time.

This also includes attacking an entire fandom for their preference.

The same goes for anyone who is trolling.

4. Remember to place all manga information in spoiler tags.

For more information go here.
[DLMURL]http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=291547[/DLMURL]

5. Any and all threads made on this subject from here on out will be merged with this one, locked, recycled and/or trashed depending on the situation.

This means do not create another thread on the matter. This will make for a very annoyed mod. Some may be nice and others may be ruthless depending on who sees the other thread. 

6. Any spoilers from Telegrams that are posted in here before the Monday after chapter release is automatic ban.This includes hinting. 


This is the first warning for everyone. Failure to adhere to these rules will result in unfavorable punishments. 

Alright, this thread and each incarnation shall be archived after every 100 pages. Things always seem to degrade more frequently after a certain point. It also helps for other things that I won't mention.

Also since the people can't seem to play nicely you will just be outright banned if we see your nonsense. Each ban will be longer than the last until people get the freaking point.

Have at it.

Archived threads:

Endless Mike*
*Carloseh*

*IF THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH A POST REPORT IT!*​


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## KnightEnvy (Mar 5, 2009)

(Ha!  Number 1 post.  Not counting Jetstorms rules list.)

Ok.  I am going to talk about 437.  If you haven't read the chapter, read it before you click on the spoiler box.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Is this for or against NaruHina?  In my opinion it is against.  It does verify what all NaruHina supporters, and most others believed that Hinata was in love with Naruto.  Now the problem is her confession, much like Sakura's to Sasuke, had a complete negative reaction considering the situation.  Add to that, the likelyhood that this may be the last time we see Hinata alive is pretty high.  With those two conclusions, NaruHina is pretty much over.  




So, who wants to debate it?


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## Tyler (Mar 5, 2009)

I think Sakura will end up with Sasuke because..........Naruto has a crush on Sakura.

Sakura loves Sasuke


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Mar 5, 2009)

Spoils for latest chapters...  Dont think im breaking the rules but meh..  IF i get banned I swear im gonna go clubbing baby seals..  Just so you know mods...  The blood will be on your hands....



*Spoiler*: __ 





KnightEnvy said:


> (Ha!  Number 1 post.  Not counting Jetstorms rules list.)
> 
> Ok.  I am going to talk about 437.  If you haven't read the chapter, read it before you click on the spoiler box.
> 
> ...



Oh sure ill play devils advocate....  Granted you could argue that hinata was a complete dumb ass while running up to Pein, I mean in all honesty..  What did she hope to accomplish?  How did she know that Naruto would bust a kyuubi?  For all she knew she would of just bought naruto a few seconds and gave him the added angst of watching her die plus being kidnapped...  Good thing it worked out in the end eh..?

I personally would not argue on the side of Hinata not having common sense....  If you do that then you should also criticize Sakura for rushing Naruto in his 4 tailed state.  Its practically the same thing...  Had Yamato not intervened Sakura would have died and naruto would have had that Incredible angst of knowing he killed her.

Im guessing this will go into trying to predict what happens post confession..  

#1 will naruto even remember?  ( probably)

#2 what would sakura's reaction be? support hinata or show signs of jealousy? ( even if it is the first..  that alone would not discount NS)

#3( will kishi find his way out of the basement that he has obviously been kidnapped and stuffed into?)

#4 will naruto requite?  Now this one will be a bicth to predict...  Pro Naru Hina will say that Naruto has no reason to say no.  That the love he has searched for has always been there and now he knows about it. plus she nearly sacrificed her life.  While the Antis will mostly say that Naruto rejecting Hinata would not be without precedent..  After all..  Look at Rock Lee and his devotion to sakura in the forest of death... Nothing came of that...  Or even Naruto..  Saving Sakura in the fight against sand man.  Yeah Sakura was thankful in both situations but nothing romantic came of it.  there are other examples but laziness is a factor so.. meh...

-snip-




First post in the debate thread too.....  now to have it countered beyond recognition by seasoned pros.  Be gentle..  Its my first time



Tylerannosaurus said:


> I think Sakura will end up with Sasuke because..........Naruto has a crush on Sakura.
> 
> Sakura loves Sasuke




*Spoiler*: __ 



oh come on ... You can do better than that.  Fine, ill half ass a counter to that then, Sakura may have a crush on Sasuke, but sasuke has a crush on konoha....  As in...  He wants to literaly crush konaha...  See what i did thar?


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 5, 2009)

KnightEnvy said:


> (Ha!  Number 1 post.  Not counting Jetstorms rules list.)
> 
> Ok.  I am going to talk about 437.  If you haven't read the chapter, read it before you click on the spoiler box.
> 
> ...



Bah..


*Spoiler*: __ 



We don't know if Hinata will survive or not, but with that said, _its still up in the air_. We can't predict anything about that at the moment, and there's a great chance she'd survive anyway so, the thing to look at for sure is Naruto's reaction to said scene. It was placed in the series with much emphasis, with Hinata's entire being created with Naruto in mind, if her conceptual artwork is any indication, not to mention the fact that her confession was apparently worth enough to give it the name of a chapter title.  

Naruto going KN6 for any one of his friends is certainly possible but we won't know that for sure, as Hinata(and all the other people pein killed) were the ones who transformed for. 




I find the pairing of NaruHina itself lacking of any substantial development to lead up to such a development, the only consistent thing being Hinata's feelings and Naruto's obliviousness throughout the series. 


But kishimoto is the one who makes the rules so obviously its hard to say much beyond how i feel that NaruSaku exceeds both NaruHina and SasuSaku as a canon pairing(and just a pairing general). 


Which is because Sakura's feelings have been highlighted for Naruto in many of the same situations that Hinata's have, for example the chuunin exam test, which puts out an interesting pitch for comparison between the effects Naruto has on both of these girls. 

Due to Hinata's love type feelings, placed in direct contrast with Sakura's suddenly erase all the "ambiguity" that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are. 


She has not realized it yet, but the fact that Sakura has not realized her feelings for him may yet lead to a substantial plot point in the future, which actually leads me to my next point of contention being that in my view, Sakura's journey through her road to realizing her feelings after such a drastic change of hating Naruto at the very beginning and even saying so at the start shows excellent growth of herself and how she views her peers. 



And of course Naruto's dedication to the girl throughout the series is not something to take lightly either at all, therefore its easy to see why NaruSaku would have such a backing. 

Whereas her relationship with Sasuke was much like NaruHina throughout the series, static and non moving. 


Sasuke annoyed by her and she fawned over him obsessively like a schoolgirl and not a ninja, throwing friends and peers under the bus as well in her pursuit of him, making everyone and anyone aware of her glaring flaws. 


Sasuke has been intrinsically linked to her bad side, regardless of how much there would be moaning of otherwise from opposing fandoms, and because of this Sakura needed to grow and as soon as he left it was found that she did, and it was once again because of Naruto, and his determination to never give up that she clung to in the face of danger, the same one that Hinata professes to love as well, however it is backed with a substantial wall of Naruto as well, beyond the gaara fight, and the POALT, and the kyuubi chapters this has all been leading up to something that i feel, has yet to be resolved. 


This is only a few reasons why NaruSaku to me makes the best pair out of the three for me, and for you, what's your take?


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## Saunion (Mar 5, 2009)

Basically, the way I see the latest developments:


*Spoiler*: __ 



I'd be utterly biased if I said Hinata's confession was completely unimportant and won't have any consequence in future events. To me chap 437 was definitely a stepping stone for NaruHina, as in it made the pairing go from "highly unlikely, bordering on crack" to "yeah, it could happen". So that's a nice thing to celebrate for fans of the pairing I guess.

However, claiming that it's now undisputably canon seems like nonsense to me and the sheer arrogance of some makes me wish it'd come back to bite them in the ass later. It seems these people are forgetting there's some unresolved romantic issues between Team 7 members, and that I find it HIGHLY unlikely that this subplot would be concluded before the long awaited reunion between Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura.

Basically I understand the reasoning of a lot of fans: finally get Naruto out of the way by making him fall in love with Hinata so that when Sasuke comes back it can be all SasuSaku, and voila, the beautiful happy ending everyone predicted can happen! Yeah, I don't think it'll work that way at all.

I know some people are hell bent on denying the obvious, but Naruto's feelings for Sakura still need resolution. And Sakura's feelings for Naruto and Sasuke too. To expect them to be resolved immediately after that arc, making the ending completely predictable is quite foolish and contradicts Kishimoto's habit to leave this kind of things ambiguous till the last moment (see Jiraiya and Tsunade for instance).

So basically, to NaruHina (and SasuSaku, since these two obviously go hand in hand) fans who're currently ecstatic, don't scream victory too soon. A confession does not canon pairing make (SasuSaku anyone?), and nothing says Hinata will be the last one to confess her feelings in this manga.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 5, 2009)

^ The thing with that is, if you say "Naruto should be with someone who loved him all along" it would imply that "person deserves person because *insert reason*" and although there are reasons for that i'm sure, the deserve argument is not really as ironclad as people like to think.


Because arguments aren't based on who deserves who and who doesn't, because if that was the case you could say that "Naruto deserves Sakura because he's loved her all along as opposed to Sasuke" or "Sasuke deserves Sakura because she's loved him all along" or something to that effect. It works for everyone in that case.

And making the case that you are, it would also imply that there was no reason for Naruto to like Sakura in the first place because she was bitchy to him. 

But regardless of everything he's carried that torch, and regardless of hearing someone else's feelings, there's no understandable reason to belive that he'd drop Sakura like a hot potato because of another's confession.


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## Queen Vag (Mar 5, 2009)

> Pairings aren't my thing, but it would be better for Naruto to be with someone who liked him all along than someone who started off hating his guts(and for all we know still has some feelings for Sasuke).


By that logic, two people who started off annoyed by one other could never end up together, no matter how much closer they've gotten. 
Pairings shouldn't be based off on first impressions and how relationships start out, they should be based off how relationships _develop_. Anyone could easily grow feelings for someone, even if their first impression of them wasn't great. This can be the case for Sakura and Naruto.
Besides that, if Naruto should be end up with someone who's liked him all along, shouldn't Naruto end up with someone _he's_ liked all along? Hinata's feelings aren't the only thing to take into consideration here. From what I've seen Naruto is closer to Sakura than anyone else besides Sasuke. Hinata's feelings don't even compare, even if she admitted them to him.


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## hzleys87 (Mar 5, 2009)

What makes Sakura's feelings greater than Hinata's? If we were to place both girls in a vacuum and just consider their thoughts, and actions (the obvious and not the implied) towards Naruto and only Naruto. Hinata out wins this by far. It's not even worth comparing.

But this doesn't matter because a mutual romance isn't build upon with just one sided feelings. Everyone knows that, everyone's argued that. Now as for who has the most mutual _romantic_ development, honestly none of them do.

All parties can argue that the other side of the equation has implied a similar interest: Like Sakura--->Naruto, or Naruto---> Hinata, or Sasuke ---> Sakura, but unless everyone can agree that the implication does exist and what it means is truly what it means it's useless to argue it because it then just becomes interpretation and opinion rather than canon fact.

Now for people saying that Naruto will stick to Sakura, because he knows Sakura more, just to let you know that can easily change. Naruto despite being on the same team isn't trapped to knowing just the people on the team. He can easily get familiar with Hinata as he's done with the members of team 7 and team Yamato. It's not like she's in another village and interaction between the two is impossible and it's not like he lacks the desire. He just up-front wasn't aware of her, and no, it's not another way of saying that he ignored her either. 

Before forming team 7, he was used to people outright ignoring him and hating him on spot. How was he supposed to be aware that someone can hold feelings for him? It doesn't help either that Naruto is thick headed, that he needs to be told things directly and in a no-nonsense way. It doesn't help either that Hinata was incredibly shy, and lacked the courage to talk to him in such a manner. 

What Hinata has now done is offer a declaration, and an invitation to get to know her. Naruto hasn't invested in his "love" for Sakura, not once did he say _I'm gonna love Sakura, and only Sakura, and not think of anyone else in the meanwhile_. Naruto is more than free to accept Hinata's invitation, or at least think about it. So the potential is there, and recent events made it even bigger.

To be fair I know that Naruto has extended an invitation to Sakura, numerous times in fact, but not once do we see Sakura accept in a sincere and caring fashion. She herself has negated him as many times as he has come on to her, so for me I'd say Sakura slapped Naruto's hands enough times to get the picture that she is not interested. The moments of compassion that she does have for him could have easily been and are most likely triggered by her feelings of camaraderie and friendship rather than any innate feelings of romance. Not to mention, Sakura has never had a problem revealing her romantic intentions, or even being able to label them. She has always been sure of herself in that regard and creating arguments that her feelings for Naruto are unknown to even her is just baseless.

She's described flirty for a reason.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 5, 2009)

hzleys87 said:


> What makes Sakura's feelings greater than Hinata's? If we were to place both girls in a vacuum and just consider their thoughts, and actions (the obvious and not the implied) towards Naruto and only Naruto. Hinata out wins this by far. It's not even worth comparing.



Its not the feelings, its the development between said feelings. Hinata may confess, but that does not mean he will automatically return her feelings because of that, or maybe he will, kishi is kishi after all. But from a literal standpoint, it should be impossible.



> But this doesn't matter because a mutual romance isn't build upon with just one sided feelings. Everyone knows that, everyone's argued that. Now as for who has the most mutual _romantic_ development, honestly none of them do.




When you consider Sakura's feelings being ambiguous at the moment, it throws into question just how much of her past self was acting on her feelings for Naruto(whatever they may be) and not just platonicwise, case in point the battle with zabuza and haku.




> All parties can argue that the other side of the equation has implied a similar interest: Like Sakura--->Naruto, or Naruto---> Hinata, or Sasuke ---> Sakura, but unless everyone can agree that the implication does exist and what it means is truly what it means it's useless to argue it because it then just becomes interpretation and opinion rather than canon fact.



Then what you do is, go by what you perceive as evidence based on situations and events that occur inside said series. Interpretation of events or not, its all based in the same series and therefore must have a layer of logic or reasoning to said argument.



> Now for people saying that Naruto will stick to Sakura, because he knows Sakura more, just to let you know that can easily change. Naruto despite being on the same team isn't trapped to knowing just the people on the team. He can easily get familiar with Hinata as he's done with the members of team 7 and team Yamato. It's not like she's in another village and interaction between the two is impossible and it's not like he lacks the desire. He just up-front wasn't aware of her, and no, it's not another way of saying that he ignored her either.




No one has stated that the reason they feel Naruto will stay with Sakura was because he "knew" Sakura more , we're arguing the point that Naruto has loved Sakura for a long time, and he would not drop his feelings for her because of a confession by Hinata, even though it did effect him.




> Before forming team 7, he was used to people outright ignoring him and hating him on spot. How was he supposed to be aware that someone can hold feelings for him? It doesn't help either that Naruto is thick headed, that he needs to be told things directly and in a no-nonsense way. It doesn't help either that Hinata was incredibly shy, and lacked the courage to talk to him in such a manner.



It does not matter, in the past, he was alone, but with Sasuke, Sakura, and the rest they slowly made it so that he didn't have to be alone anymore. Hinata hinting that she cared about him before any of them, should not give "exclusive rights" or whatever to his heart, that's not realistically how it works.




> What Hinata has now done is offer a declaration, and an invitation to get to know her. Naruto hasn't invested in his "love" for Sakura, not once did he say _I'm gonna love Sakura, and only Sakura, and not think of anyone else in the meanwhile_. Naruto is more than free to accept Hinata's invitation, or at least think about it. So the potential is there, and recent events made it even bigger.



He's never said such a thing, but his dedication to that girl is shown in many circumstances, via battle and emotional situation, its not a pledge or anything, its a reasoning.



> To be fair I know that Naruto has extended an invitation to Sakura, numerous times in fact, but not once do we see Sakura accept in a sincere and caring fashion. She herself has negated him as many times as he has come on to her, so for me I'd say Sakura slapped Naruto's hands enough times to get the picture that she is not interested. The moments of compassion that she does have for him could have easily been and are most likely triggered by her feelings of camaraderie and friendship rather than any innate feelings of romance. Not to mention, Sakura has never had a problem revealing her romantic intentions, or even being able to label them. She has always been sure of herself in that regard and creating arguments that her feelings for Naruto are unknown to even her is just baseless.
> 
> 
> She's described flirty for a reason.



^ Kishimoto has said that Sakura is one who "doesn't understand men". That being said, it is also shown that she's particularly dense to recognize things about her own self, as evidenced in part one with her Sasuke obsession ruining her character. Beyond that,  there have been more than enough hinting throughout the series that Sakura feels something for Naruto that she cannot place or describe at this moment, and before passing it off as "friendship" or the like, it should be noted that she still has not found an answer for these feelings of hers. Its not an argument, its a fact dredged up numerous times.

And i've never heard of Sakura being personified as "flirty".


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## FDEL (Mar 6, 2009)

SasuSaku = Shallow, because all the supporting evidence points to a flirty pre-skip fangirl-like Sakura, and till today Sasuke displayed zero interest.

NaruHina is almost the same thing, with the only difference being the difference in personality between Sasuke and Naruto, and between Sakura and Hinata. Sasuke probably appreciates Sakura as a comrade much like Naruto appreciates Hinata as a comrade, it's just that Naruto shows it more than Sasuke due to difference in personality. It can be argued that Hinata's feelings for Naruto might be of more substance than Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, but even if that is true, it still doesn't make enough of a difference. In the end, both SasuSaku and NaruHina are about fangirl devotion and one-sided romance.

And one-sided romance doesn't turn into two-sided romance without lots of development unless:

A) The other person is superficial enough to accept the feelings of someone else while knowing that they cannot return such feelings, OR
B) The other person is an emotional freak capable of going from 0% interest to 100% interest with no shown development in between.

If a character did either, then it would be a display of a character flaw.

This is why I wish for a NaruSaku ending, because such an ending would mean the story has given the idea of romance the highest regard out of these three pairings. Out of the three, NaruSaku yields the _best quality_ romance. As of today's manga situation, SasuSaku and NaruHina's link still pales in comparison with NaruSaku's link. The two has long-term, mutual devotions to each other that is lacking in the other two pairings. Right now as of this moment, if NaruSaku suddenly happened, it would seem natural. However, if SasuSaku and/or NaruHina suddenly happened, then it would seem highly unnatural. True affection is usually not something you start out with or that suddenly happen, it's something that builds constantly and gradually, and right now, only NaruSaku has this "building up gradually" notion.


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## santanico (Mar 7, 2009)

> So basically, to NaruHina (and SasuSaku, since these two obviously go hand in hand) fans who're currently ecstatic, don't scream victory too soon. A confession does not canon pairing make (SasuSaku anyone?), and nothing says Hinata will be the last one to confess her feelings in this manga.


 No, but so far she has been the second female to confess, something we haven't seen for NS. And this romantic development many fans like to talk about.. I personally don't see it, as do many others. The ramen scene does not imply anything flirtatious in my eyes, since Sakura a) didn't feed him and b) did not look the least bit annoyed that her little "moment" with him was interrupted by Kakashi. Again this is MY opinion.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 About chapter 437, claiming Hinata was a dumb ass for running into the fight, why is it stupid that she did that for Naruto, but when Sakura ran up to KN4 that was an implication of NS love? And please don't say they've had more development than him and Hinata, because that was when he barely came back to Konoha. 




chatter away please. <3


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## Kathutet (Mar 7, 2009)

Hoshi~ said:


> -snip-
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



No, that was very stupid. But again, this is a different situation. She ran towards KN4 after he transformed, after he fought, and risked her life doing so. Hinata came OUT OF THE BLUE, confessed to him in a random manner, then got stabbed by pain before he transformed.

Kishi likes to make his women weak.




*Edit:* hi, looking forward to debating with ya. XD
Let's have some random fun.


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## saasha (Mar 7, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> No, that was very stupid. But again, this is a different situation. She ran towards KN4 after he transformed, after he fought, and risked her life doing so. Hinata came OUT OF THE BLUE, confessed to him in a random manner, then got stabbed by pain before he transformed.



*Spoiler*: __ 




I beg to differ. Hinata did not jump in out of the blue. Naruto was clearly on the verge of being captured/kyubi being extracted. She saw that his situation was desperate before she acted. We see her worry for Naruto prior to that but she grits her teeth & stays put in the earlier chapters. She only jumps out when she sees that Naruto is helpless & unable to defend himself. She buys him valuable time at the cost of her own life. There was nothing stupid about what she did. It bugs me to see people criticising Hinata & wistfully predicting her death for doing something so commendable, while clearly proving the depth of her love for Naruto, just because it interferes with their OTP ( not pointing fingers at u but well, I've seen plenty of Narusakuers doing this & it pisses me off). 

Simply because she calls her actions selfish, doesnt mean that it actually was. How is it selfish to deliberately sacrifice your own life for the sake of your loved one? 

She was fantastic. She simply blew me away with her bold confession & utterly selfless act.(& no stutters whatsoever too). NaruHina isnt my OTP but I cannot deny that it is a very sweet & satisfying relationship, moreso than any other ship right now.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 7, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Sorry Kitsune, but I don´t believe that it is stupid in any sort of way to risk your life for someone you care deeply, despite knowing that you might not live or make it through after that and still going into it, so that the person you love  remain safe. 

What Hinata did is no different to what Sakura did back then. Both of them risked their lives in trying to save Naruto. Sakura did it in order to try to get him out of the KN4 state while Hinata decided to jump into the battlefield and put everything she got against an overwhelming opponent like Pain,even if it cost her life.

To be honest, I don´t understand how coming to Naruto´s aid wherever he transformed or not into the Kyuubi is to be considered more valid than coming before he did it.

To you it may seem that it was out of the blue, but the facts remains that she made an stand in front of someone more stronger than her so that Naruto wasn´t taken away and she knew that her chances of winning where slim, so before facing her "destiny", she might as well tell Naruto that he had always been and will forever be loved by her. Even if meant that they could never be together.



I don´t think Kishi makes his women characters weak, just because we don´t see them making some pwning it doesn´t necessarily makes them look weak. What matters are their motives, intentions and actions toward their precious people, and that is strenght.

And don´t spect to debate with me. Sorry, but I was passing by and I saw this and decided to make my opinion known. I want to do other stuff.

Stay safe.


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## FDEL (Mar 7, 2009)

Hmm...

Let's ignore any possible hints of Sakura liking Naruto back for now, and think of NaruSaku to be a totally one-sided thing.

What makes Naruto's affection for Sakura (in NaruSaku) to be inferior to Hinata's affection for Naruto (In NaruHina)? What has Hinata felt/done for Naruto that Naruto hasn't felt/done for Sakura?

After all, there are two people in a couple. It's not just Hinata versus Sakura, instead, it's more like:

Hinata's feelings for Naruto + Naruto's feelings for Hinata

vs

Sakura's feelings for Naruto + Naruto's feelings for Sakura

Isn't it?


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## saasha (Mar 7, 2009)

I believe that NaruHina is as good as canon for a couple of reasons; note I'm not saying it is canon right now , just that it will soon be or at least will be heavily implied before the end of the manga. 

*Spoiler*: __ 




Hinata's confession opens plenty of new doors for this pairing. Naruto isnt going to suddenly fall in love with her simply because of her confession but he is clearly deeply affected by it. He is stunned by the fact there was someone out there who loved him unconditionally from the very beginning, someone who always saw him for who he was & didnt despise him for it. 

While he isnt going to suddenly realize his non-existent romantic feelings for her, he most definitely will be looking at her differently now than before. She wont simply be one of his important people anymore. From now onwards she will be an important friend of his who is in love with him & he isn't going to simply ignore this fact without doing anything. 

The girl he crushes on is in love with his best friend. As far as he is concerned, he cannot pursue sakura seriously. Before, he didnt have any reason to move on but now he is aware that there is this girl that he really likes as a person already who is very much in love with him, the kind of love that he's been craving for a long time now. He values love & friendship. He isnt going to reject her without atleast giving her a chance because that's the kind of person he is. And once he starts dating her, spending more time with her & Hinata being the darling that she is. I really cant see him not falling for her eventually. NaruHina has potential.

Narusaku ship isnt going to have a chance of winning this, unless one of them shows clear romantic interest in the other or there's a confession from either one of them; both scenarios I see as very unlikely. So, until then, this ship is as good as dead.


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## hzleys87 (Mar 8, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Its not the feelings, its the development between said feelings. Hinata may confess, but that does not mean he will automatically return her feelings because of that, or maybe he will, kishi is kishi after all. But from a literal standpoint, it should be impossible.



I don't think anyone will argue that Naruto will return Hinata's feelings instantaneously...but in either case, like you've said Kishi is Kishi, but why would it be impossible? There is still more that can transpire between Naruto and Hinata. It's not like either of them is actually dead.






> When you consider Sakura's feelings being ambiguous at the moment, it throws into question just how much of her past self was acting on her feelings for Naruto(whatever they may be) and not just platonicwise, case in point the battle with zabuza and haku.



This sounds a little too convenient. So just because Sakura's feelings right now are ambiguous this must mean, or can possibly mean, that she has no idea what her feelings for Naruto were since day one? Sakura in the beginning found Naruto to be annoying, in her way, and unable to understand her. Those sentiments were concrete until later on in the series as she was forced to interact with him, and along with Sasuke's nudging,forced to reconsider her opinions of Naruto. 





> Then what you do is, go by what you perceive as evidence based on situations and events that occur inside said series. Interpretation of events or not, its all based in the same series and therefore must have a layer of logic or reasoning to said argument.



True. But then it'll come down to whose logic works better and some people are too sensitive to put themselves up for that kind of beat down.




> No one has stated that the reason they feel Naruto will stay with Sakura was because he "knew" Sakura more , we're arguing the point that Naruto has loved Sakura for a long time, and he would not drop his feelings for her because of a confession by Hinata, even though it did effect him.



But where is the proof that Naruto Loves Sakura in a romantic way? There was never a confession on his part, there were never internal declarations, he doesn't dwell on his feelings for Sakura more than to ask her on a date on random intervals which consequentially end up as comedic moments. I can accept that he likes her, and is fond of her, but that he loves her? Not until he says it, or he thinks it, he doesn't. 




> It does not matter, in the past, he was alone, but with Sasuke, Sakura, and the rest they slowly made it so that he didn't have to be alone anymore. Hinata hinting that she cared about him before any of them, should not give "exclusive rights" or whatever to his heart, that's not realistically how it works.



You're right. Loving someone before anyone else has does not give "exclusive rights", but it gives Naruto something to think about doesn't it? 

And as much as Sakura, Sasuke, Kakashi, and Iruka mean to Naruto and have lessened his loneliness no one has given him this kind of sentiment before and by that fact alone Hinata is special. 






> He's never said such a thing, but his dedication to that girl is shown in many circumstances, via battle and emotional situation, its not a pledge or anything, its a reasoning.



And Sakura being his friend, and teammate are not strong enough bonds to warrant that response from him and therefore be good reasoning too?





> Kishimoto has said that Sakura is one who "doesn't understand men".



Ok, she doesn't get men but still I would say she understands herself. Even in part one she realized she wasn't strong enough to be of any use to her team, and she was able to sympasize with Naruto over her harsh treatment of him after going through similar treatment via Sasuke. She's a smart girl, she knows her feelings.



> That being said, it is also shown that she's particularly dense to recognize things about her own self, as evidenced in part one with her Sasuke obsession ruining her character. Beyond that, there have been more than enough hinting throughout the series that Sakura feels something for Naruto that she cannot place or describe at this moment, and before passing it off as "friendship" or the like, it should be noted that she still has not found an answer for these feelings of hers. Its not an argument, its a fact dredged up numerous times.



What one calls obsession, another calls devotion. She loved Sasuke, and acted accordingly. She was 12, and the way she acted was immature yes, but it was the purest of intentions. She looked to please Sasuke as much to please herself because she knew that being with him is what made her happy.

Now as for her conflicted feelings for Naruto, well what do you expect? She hated him in the beginning and was convinced that he was menace, later she was finding much to her surprise that he was good person, and one of the best friends she could have possibly made. She was not expecting for Naruto to turn out to be such an awesome person.



> And i've never heard of Sakura being personified as "flirty".



Well, lets see. What would you call all her advances to Sasuke then? She asked him out for dates, planned to take his first kiss, complemented him at every turn, gushed over every grand moment he had.... She flirted all the time with the boy.

Then we had that moment when she is first seeing Naruto, bends over, puts her index finger to her cheek, and blushingly asks: am I more womanly now? or something to that affect. Obvious Flirting. Which you know, could have been an epic NaruSaku moment if Naruto would have noticed and cared, and Sakura wouldn't have been so disappointed to see that he hadn't changed at all. 

Honestly to me it seems that Naruto's normal behavior is a big turn off for her, she only seems to think of him in wonder when he's in battle mode and even then that isn't special either because everyone else has the same wonder too when they are watching him fight.


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## Tenrol (Mar 8, 2009)

hzleys87 said:


> But where is the proof that Naruto Loves Sakura in a romantic way? There was never a confession on his part, there were never internal declarations, he doesn't dwell on his feelings for Sakura more than to ask her on a date on random intervals which consequentially end up as comedic moments. I can accept that he likes her, and is fond of her, but that he loves her? Not until he says it, or he thinks it, he doesn't.




Here Orochimaru stepped in and stopped Sasuke from killing them all.

He said why he liked Sakura. And just to let you know in the official  Viz translatation they used *love* instead of *like*


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## FDEL (Mar 8, 2009)

@ saasha

Hmm... that's pretty convincing. I guess my only complaint about NaruHina then would be that it would still be a "pairing that came out of nowhere." If Naruto just "gives Hinata a chance because he values love and friendship," then it would be a pairing that became canon without any buildup, much too sudden for the good of the storyline.

But it would be realistic and in-character, and I can picture it happening, so it's not that bad of an alternative. Though, it kinda makes me want to ask what that scene with Yamato and Sakura is for then. Why waste so much space just to show one of Yamato's mistaken theories? Maybe Kishi himself is going back and forth on the issue?


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## soulnova (Mar 8, 2009)

EDIT: OH FUCK. Didn't read the guidelines, Sorry. Deleting NaruSasu joke.

It was a good joke... 

Oh well gonna re-post  previous thoughts:
*Spoiler*: __ 






soulnova said:


> Yeah, that would be mine.
> I posted here another prediction. MOAR Naruhina comming, I say.
> 
> Anyway, about the all the "He's going to reject her" people... I have come to realize their concept of love might be a little different. Seems like empathy  is a very important concept about love they can't grasp.
> ...


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## Kathutet (Mar 8, 2009)

^ As much as I agree with you, that should not be debated in here. Check the OP.


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## Bellville (Mar 8, 2009)

FDEL said:


> @ saasha
> 
> Hmm... that's pretty convincing. I guess my only complaint about NaruHina then would be that it would still be a "pairing that came out of nowhere." If Naruto just "gives Hinata a chance because he values love and friendship," then it would be a pairing that became canon without any buildup, much too sudden for the good of the storyline.
> 
> But it would be realistic and in-character, and I can picture it happening, so it's not that bad of an alternative. Though, it kinda makes me want to ask what that scene with Yamato and Sakura is for then. Why waste so much space just to show one of Yamato's mistaken theories? Maybe Kishi himself is going back and forth on the issue?


I don't think NaruHina is a pairing that came out of nowhere, as the setup for it during the chuunin exams(Hinata willing to cheat to help Naruto, Naruto's blood vow to avenge Hinata, her coughing up blood during his fight, Naruto deciding he likes Hinata as a person rather than her being some "weird, dark girl", Hinata's seeing Naruto for his good points despite the majority opinion, etc, etc) made for a very nice foundation for this couple. However, I agree that the current development was too sudden to be satisfying. 

Yamato's speech to Sakura was ambiguous. And it's just as Yamato said, 'it's the way Sakura _feels_ for Naruto that's important'. Does it have to be romantic? She's probably the closest thing Naruto has now that Sasuke is MIA. Yamato doesn't have a theory, and he's not mistaken in what he said, because he didn't imply romance, the readers did.

Kishi does bits of fanservice, probably, but I'm pretty sure he's got a definite plan already and a pairing isn't exactly something he'd just throw in on a whim. I hope


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## saasha (Mar 8, 2009)

FDEL said:


> @ saasha
> 
> Hmm... that's pretty convincing. I guess my only complaint about NaruHina then would be that it would still be a "pairing that came out of nowhere." If Naruto just "gives Hinata a chance because he values love and friendship," then it would be a pairing that became canon without any buildup, much too sudden for the good of the storyline.



I sort of agree with this, (though a pairing that has friendship & one-sided romantic interest as a base can hardly be seen as a "pairing that came out of nowhere") which is why I believe that it will only be strongly implied. Impossible as it may seem right now, I actually believe that its sasusaku that's gonna become canon within the duration of the manga. I just have this gut feeling That its gonna happen. Call it feminine intuition if you will but my instincts are rarely wrong. 



> But it would be realistic and in-character, and I can picture it happening, so it's not that bad of an alternative. Though, it kinda makes me want to ask what that scene with Yamato and Sakura is for then. Why waste so much space just to show one of Yamato's mistaken theories? Maybe Kishi himself is going back and forth on the issue?



Hmmm......I guess it all depends on how you interpret Yamato's unfinished sentences. If you interpret them as having romantic implications then it'll feel like it was a waste of space but I never interpreted it as having romantic implications so I dont find anything amiss in that scene. As for Kishi going back & forth, it is possible he purposely worded it that way to bait the fans.


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## Tenacious Lee (Mar 8, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Link removed

Sakura had no chance in hell of beating Gaara here, yet did it anyway. I dont call Sakura stupid for this.

Gaara would have killed her on the spot and finished off Sasuke if it hadnt been for his little emotional episode. She didnt know he would emotionally breakdown, she literally threw her life away for Sasuke.


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## FDEL (Mar 8, 2009)

> I don't think NaruHina is a pairing that came out of nowhere, as the setup for it during the chuunin exams(Hinata willing to cheat to help Naruto, Naruto's blood vow to avenge Hinata, her coughing up blood during his fight, Naruto deciding he likes Hinata as a person rather than her being some "weird, dark girl", Hinata's seeing Naruto for his good points despite the majority opinion, etc, etc) made for a very nice foundation for this couple. However, I agree that the current development was too sudden to be satisfying.
> 
> Yamato's speech to Sakura was ambiguous. And it's just as Yamato said, 'it's the way Sakura feels for Naruto that's important'. Does it have to be romantic? She's probably the closest thing Naruto has now that Sasuke is MIA. Yamato doesn't have a theory, and he's not mistaken in what he said, because he didn't imply romance, the readers did.
> 
> Kishi does bits of fanservice, probably, but I'm pretty sure he's got a definite plan already and a pairing isn't exactly something he'd just throw in on a whim. I hope



That's exactly what I meant for the pairing to come out of nowhere - that the current development is much too sudden to be satisfying.

The thing with the Yamato scene is that it's hard to believe that the Yamato scene is only highlighting something like friendship or camaraderie because it would be highly unnecessary. Considering that Naruto and Sakura's friendship is already well established (at that time, Sasuke not counted, they could be considered best friends even), there's no reason to leave it ambiguous if it's just a highlight of friendship. The manga was clearly trying to suggest something new there, and if it's not romance, then I can't think of anything else that's not already obvious and still fits the context.

Of course, it could just be ship-teasing, but if you open this plot point, then you've gotta close it, and you gotta close it in such a way to not make it seem extra. I wonder how this will turn out.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Personally, if Kishi is going after a NaruHina ending, then I want Naruto to give Hinata an ambiguous answer now, and then return her feelings later when the pair is more developed. Meanwhile, the potential NaruSaku hints need an alternate explanations that have to be believable. All the transitions should be natural and believable, and the story should not leave any loose ends.






> I actually believe that its sasusaku that's gonna become canon within the duration of the manga. I just have this gut feeling That its gonna happen. Call it feminine intuition if you will but my instincts are rarely wrong.



Oh god... if SasuSaku is how it'll end, then Sasuke better have an 180 degree turn in personality. Right now, Sasuke so does not deserve Naruto and Sakura's determination to bring him back, lol.



> Hmmm......I guess it all depends on how you interpret Yamato's unfinished sentences. If you interpret them as having romantic implications then it'll feel like it was a waste of space but I never interpreted it as having romantic implications so I dont find anything amiss in that scene. As for Kishi going back & forth, it is possible he purposely worded it that way to bait the fans.



Within that context, if not romance, then probably something like friendship. But if friendship, then it's a waste of panels because everyone's reaction (including Sakura's) would be "DUH." By that point their friendship is already very well established, and both know that.

And if not friendship, then what else can fit that context?


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## Kurama (Mar 8, 2009)

FDEL said:


> That's exactly what I meant for the pairing to come out of nowhere - that the current development is much too sudden to be satisfying.



Not gonna bother arguing with much more than this.

The "current development" you claim to be "too sudden to be satisfying" is no more than Hinata finally making Naruto aware of her feelings, which has been hinted at and foreshadowed throughout her appearances, and her interference in this fight sufficiently foreshadowed in 434. The way some are arguing you'd think Kishi made Naruto fall in love with her the moment the words left her lips. 437 is only the _beginning_ of the end, if Kishi intends NaruHina of course.


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## Saunion (Mar 8, 2009)

saasha said:


> Hmmm......I guess it all depends on how you interpret Yamato's unfinished sentences. If you interpret them as having romantic implications then it'll feel like it was a waste of space but I never interpreted it as having romantic implications so I dont find anything amiss in that scene. As for Kishi going back & forth, it is possible he purposely worded it that way to bait the fans.



How do you explain Sakura's last databook entry then?

Are "the databook and Kishimoto" wrong in that case, and of course right when they're talking about "up and down love story" or "like arrows"? 

I still haven't read a proper counter to something that seems to perfectly fit with NaruSaku fans interpretation of Sakura's relationship with Naruto, coming from secondary canon no less.


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## Kathutet (Mar 8, 2009)

Saunion said:


> How do you explain Sakura's last databook entry then?
> 
> Are "the databook and Kishimoto" wrong in that case, and of course right when they're talking about "up and down love story" or "like arrows"?
> 
> I still haven't read a proper counter to something that seems to perfectly fit with NaruSaku fans interpretation of Sakura's relationship with Naruto, coming from secondary canon no less.


Not really, can I receive a link please? 
I do know that Kishimoto only took credit for the databook and has not written them themselves, but... That's about it.

Again, a link would be appreciated.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 8, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Not really, can I receive a link please?
> I do know that Kishimoto only took credit for the databook and has not written them themselves, but... That's about it.
> 
> Again, a link would be appreciated.





> From Sakura's chara page, "Naruto" section:
> "Since when she was a child Sakura had always felt admiration and a feeling similar to love for Sasuke. Naruto was just an "annoying" boy who stood in the middle between Sakura and Sasuke and disturbed their relationship. But after completing many missions together with him, she looked back at the past and finally realized: when she was in trouble, when she was ready to give up on her life, the one who was always there, protecting her and encouraging her, was in fact that "annoying" boy, Naruto. What are her current feelings for Naruto...? Sakura still hasn't found an answer."



This is Sakura's databook entry from databook 3, she has her own "Naruto" section. (of course i have no idea why but..)

I'd take it as a grain of salt cause databooks = shit, but that's what you wanted to see so there ya go


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## Kathutet (Mar 8, 2009)

I see nothing but improvement when it comes to her thoughts about Naruto.
Seriously, it has developed more than Naruto's thoughts about Hinata.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 8, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> I see nothing but improvement when it comes to her thoughts about Naruto.
> Seriously, it has developed more than Naruto's thoughts about Hinata.



Bah, as i said let's not jump the gun and use outdated theories and whatnot..

Naruto stuck up for hinata when she was down, and beyond that fufilled her will with the BO against neji in the chuunin exams. Such a thing has a pretty powerful impact on Hinata's character and her own feelings and shown Naruto's' guts as a ninja.  There's nothing shortsighted or weak about that kind of thing.


SasuSaku on the other hand, is the only pairing in which i feel that there was nothing particularly good or inspiring between either character, besides a modest friendship at best, because it quite frankly brought out the very worst in Sakura's character and in the end it made her more miserable than not.


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## Xephrenia (Mar 8, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> SasuSaku on the other hand, is the only pairing in which i feel that there was nothing particularly good or inspiring between either character, besides a modest friendship at best, because it quite frankly brought out the very worst in Sakura's character and in the end it made her more miserable than not.



I don't see what basis you have for saying that. A HUGE part of Sakura's inspiration to become stronger was due to Sasuke's departure. Her feelings of being useless that continue to persist throughout the manga are due to her inability to protect her teammates, in particular the one she love(s/ed) the most. I know the data book is not and entirely credible source overall, but for good measure: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Turning Point* (Sakura learning that Naruto failed)
When she realizes Sasuke has gone to a place that she cannot reach, Sakura quickly looks to correct herself, as a friend... as a ninja... And she comes to a realization that this is not the end but the beginning.
*
Journey* (Naruto promising Sakura again and Sakura becoming Tsunade's apprentice)
Vowing on a new path, Sakura is determined to bring back Sasuke with her own strength. No matter how dangerous the journey is, she will not back down, for this path has now become her nindo.




As you see, on the contrary, the decision to bring back the one she loves  most with the help of a close companion is what sets in stone the strengthening and maturing of her entire character, and to say otherwise is in complete contrast to the character Kishimoto has spent so much time and care in creating. 

IMO, it is utterly pointless for Kishimoto to have developed the Sakura/Sasuke bond to the extent he did, and have her character revolve so strongly on her developing romantic feelings for Sasuke, as well as her desire to strive to become stronger in order to find him, just to have her do a complete 180 and fall for his best friend in his absence.     

It can be said that from an early stage that Sakura's interaction with Sasuke ultimately shaped and began to develop Sakura's character. Sasuke is the one who told her the truth about her weaknesses from the very beginning, and whether his intentions in doing so were honorable or not, they had an direct impact on Sakura's desire and willingness to change herself. I also point out that Sasuke had in fact done the reverse as well. Upon noticing her feelings of distress before the Chuunin exams, he proceeded to point out her strong points. His complement cannot be argued as inadvertent, for he was truly trying to cheer her up, as he was shown in his own panel smiling to himself as she regained her self-confidence. Sasuke's actions here at an early stage nudge Sakura in the right direction in realizing her self worth, and are  coincidentally (or not) relayed by the person she strives for acknowledgment from. Another thing to point out from this example is that Naruto had _no idea_ of Sakura's worries, and while it can be said that he has an obvious ignorance of such things, shouldn't the one who loves her and supposedly understands her better than anyone else have noticed her poorly hidden discontentment? However, Sasuke is the one shown to not only immediately notice her dejected demeanor, but also seems to know that it is caused by feelings of worthlessness, and shapes his compliment directly to her persona and the root of her worries. He could only have done this through a certain level of understanding of her character, whether he admits it to himself or not. The one who supposedly cares nothing for the "silly girl" shows a level of sensitivity thought not possible of the heartless Uchiha, while the one who is deemed to "lub her wit all his hearrt!!11!" by most NaruSaku-ers is shown to have a clear lack of understanding of her character.    

In regards to Naruto, I have no doubt that he cares about her immensely and vice versa, but there are no viable reference points in the entirety of the manga to indicate his seriousness in pursuing her romantically. Sakura is even less inclined to do so. As it has been said before, his constant, comedic pestering for dates have been met each in turn with a comedic rejection, with Naruto's feelings on the matter not carried over past the panel following the rejection. Sakura is likewise shown indifferent/uninterested/annoyed with in his childlike advances. Naruto was never shown to be hurt over these rejections, and had no lingering thoughts whatsoever on the matter later on, let alone ANY indication of romantic pondering (or any serious thoughts for that matter) of the girl, unless it involved their mutual desire to retrieve Sasuke. 

What Naruto DOES truly understand about Sakura is the depth of her feelings for Sasuke. He ACCEPTS them. He has seen the constant devotion and unwavering care she has shown him, and understands the importance of their influence on each other. The landmark example of this case is the hospital scene, where Naruto watches as Sakura cries and hugs Sasuke close. You may think "heh, big deal, Sakura's hugged him a million times with no obvious outcome," but the fact is, Sasuke _does not push her away_ and accepts her embrace with no signs of protest. This action speaks volumes on how far they've come and how his feelings have evolved, romantically or otherwise. The gravity of the situation allows realization to dawn on Naruto, causing him to utter "Sasuke...you..." while Sasuke accepts her affections. The fact that Naruto can put aside his reservations on the matter for the sole purpose of their happiness is so commendable and in character of him, I can't imagine what he could have done differently to put his character in more high esteem. The look on his face (small, melancholy smile) as he watches them says all that's needed to be said about his acceptance of the genuineness of her feelings and Sasuke's recognition of her as one of his important people. The PoaL is also in accordance with his acceptance and understanding of her feelings, as well as his own desire to retrieve Sasuke: "Sakura-chan, you really like/love Sasuke, huh?" followed by "I know how much pain you're because of Sasuke. I can understand." 

Now the usual argument would be, "well because Sasuke caused her so much pain, he doesn't 'deserve' her!"  Now if Kishimoto gave in to the relentless arguing about whether or not a character "deserves" someone, Naruto would have every girl falling at his feet to satisfy such reasoning. Sakura is not wavering or having conflicting internal thoughts about which of the males she's going to choose, and whether or not one deserves to be loved over the other. Despite what many may want to believe, Sakura has grown to _know_ Sasuke. She was with him in his weakest moments, knew the pain he was going through due to the cursed seal, and knows what went into his decision to get revenge. Yet she _still_ chose to love him despite his his incredible flaws, those of which caused her to become even more deeply involved with him at an emotional level. This is not a "crush" that simply fades over time nor allows feelings to simply shift from one individual to another. The fact that she is not shown to be obsessing over him in every panel is proof of her growth into a mature person who can handle such feelings without the need to cry and complain in every chapter. Despite popular opinion, she _chose _ to act this way -- "Crying is not going to bring Sasuke-kun back."  

Sakura is, in essence, a healer. Her multifaceted personality and her actions up to this point have cause many to draw that conclusion. Now, who is the person, upon redemption, that will need healing in as many ways possible, both physically and emotionally? Sasuke. I cannot see Sakura essentially leaving this person alone(as he is in his worst memories) when it is her support that will be needed when the time comes. When writhing in pain, Sasuke has been shown to reach for the hand of the person that is always beside him (Sakura), as well as lean on her for support and rely on her for comfort. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Databook 2 (Sasuke's departure):  "The one who fulfilled his lonely existence was Sakura."


 Naruto has proven time and time again that he doesn't _need _ Sakura's romantic love, and they get along famously and comically as great friends. Their bond has evolved beautifully, Sakura's feelings going from hate to genuine care/admiration for the guy, and said bond does not need to evolve into something beyond that. As I see it, their development with each other has come to a satisfying conclusion, and to push it farther would ruin the Team 7 dynamics set up so intentionally from the beginning of Part I.

On NaruHina: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



There lies a substantial importance in Hinata's dramatically pulled off confession. Not only does it satisfy all previous foreshadowing as well as add development to Hinata's character, I just don't see this event as being brushed off or put on the back burner. A true confession from someone who has loved him all along is bound to have a huge effect on Naruto, and there is simply no place for a potential romance to start blooming between Naruto and Sakura (not just because of her confession). People say that Hinata's confession in itself is "out of the blue" but there were serious and credible hints leading up to the confession, as there were for Sakura's confession. Now seeing as Hinata's confession is out there and her feelings are known, what could be more out of the blue than a sudden blooming romantic relationship between Naruto and Sakura when there has been no credible romantic material up to this point?  You can't read into the possibilities of what's not there, especially while other relatively obvious romantic developments have been and are being developed right and left.


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## Crackers (Mar 8, 2009)

hzleys87 said:


> But I'm not gonna push the argument, what I will ask though did it live through the time skip? People can argue their interpretations but there hasn't been any dwelling of the subject, talk, or thought on Naruto's part since then.
> 
> So I'm gonna take it as a no.


The manga and I beg to differ.

*Spoiler*: __ 







If Naruto still didn't see Sakura in a romantic light, he would not have reacted the way he did when she offered to feed him. He interpreted her offer as something romantic. Whether or not she meant it as such is a different story altogether, but the fact remains Naruto reacted in a way only a boy with romantic feelings toward a girl who would offer to feed him would. Furthermore, he yells at Sai for interfering and ruining the "atmosphere" and is severely disappointed when Kakashi ends up being the one to feed him instead. 

If that doesn't tell you Naruto is still hung up on Sakura, I don't know what will.


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## Bellville (Mar 8, 2009)

saskura said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was a very nicely done post, however, it didn't address Sakura's horrid behavior towards her "friends" coming from her feelings for Sasuke which Inu was talking about. Those are all the nice points about SS, sure. But it's foolish to look at their situation so positively and not even bring up the negativity associated with it.


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## hzleys87 (Mar 8, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Viz disagree


If you would have read carefully I said I was corrected.







> Wait should i choose your translation or the offical? hmmmm wait i guess ill stay with the official..  Official > fan translation anyday. Even that I guess Naruto liked Sakura enough to kiss her. if this isn't love i dont' know what is it will you learn it to me?  . As for your manga readers they are only fan site with fan translation. You know for Viz you need money to get it. Not my fault if you are reading the manga for free. You should support Kishimoto.



Not saying you should, in fact I stated I wasn't going to push the argument. I've merely shown you the actual Japanese script. Take it as you wish, I for one don't care one way or another. Viz says "love" everyone else says "like". Whatever it still doesn't change my impression.






> We can say the same about Sakura



We could. Doesn't get us anywhere does it? But I will say that Sakura has less opportunities to think about Sasuke, and more about Naruto and she isn't taking advantage of it. 

I would think because she's with Naruto more often she would have figured she had feelings for him by now, unless you know, she doesn't.


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## Crackers (Mar 8, 2009)

You can't show us the actual Japanese script, hzleys, because not many people can read it without a translation, and if it comes from a person who prefers one couple over the other, people are going to call that person biased in their translation and find another person to translate the page, and it will be a never-ending struggle to figure out what "that one" word is. It's probably best that you go with the official translation as opposed to the fantranslation anyway because it was what was approved by Kishimoto's staff. (Of course, not many of us even *have* the official translation, so we are all just going to have to take their word for it when they say it says something different)

I'd also like to add that "like" and "love" essentially mean the same thing, it's just one evokes much stronger feelings than the other and makes a person do some crazy shit over and over again for the sake of the individual it involves. So, the argument is kind of pointless. :|



saskura said:


> I don't see what basis you have for saying that. A HUGE part of Sakura's inspiration to become stronger was due to Sasuke's departure. Her feelings of being useless that continue to persist throughout the manga are due to her inability to protect her teammates, in particular the one she love(s/ed) the most. I know the data book is not and entirely credible source overall, but for good measure:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'm also going to have to *strongly* disagree with this. 
*Spoiler*: _chapter 236 pages_ 










The moment that Sakura hears Sasuke got away, all she does is stand at the door, sulking. When Tsunade comes along and opens the door, she's forced to encounter Naruto. When he keeps apologizing to her, all she does is keep trying to brush them away. She is trying to run away from the problem, to not admit that she was wrong to put all of her faith in and depend on Naruto. She's lost in a state of hopelessness and doesn't feel compelled to do anything about getting Sasuke back. 

It isn't until *Naruto reinforces his promise* that Sakura realizes how pitiful she had acted toward Sasuke when he left and how selfish she had been to ask Naruto to bring him back. It's not until Naruto's words that Sakura realizes she "didn't do anything" to help Naruto get Sasuke, and her resolve changes completely. 

*Spoiler*: _More pages_ 













If it weren't for Naruto's words, Sakura likely would have given up altogether to get Sasuke back.


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## roninmedia (Mar 8, 2009)

> Naruto has proven time and time again that he doesn't need  Sakura's romantic love, and they get along famously and comically as great friends.



No one needs love from another character but they certainly want it. I think if that was all they existed for, I would say they are falling short as a character. For example, when some fans display Hinata as a character who would fall into a prolonged cycle of hurt and depression if she does not end up as the Hokage's wife. Hinata should not need Naruto's love to change herself and change the Hyuuga.

Naruto grew fine without love; he merely grows better with it. I think that pretty much applies to everyone.


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## Saunion (Mar 8, 2009)

saskura said:


> I don't see what basis you have for saying that. A HUGE part of Sakura's inspiration to become stronger was due to Sasuke's departure. Her feelings of being useless that continue to persist throughout the manga are due to her inability to protect her teammates, in particular the one she love(s/ed) the most. I know the data book is not and entirely credible source overall, but for good measure:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I absolutely love the "close companion" part 

Poor Naruto. Considered as "a close companion" by SS fans worldwide. I guess it's a step up from "little brother" at least. Anyway.

What you're conveniently forgetting in your little scenario is that Sakura would never have made that decision to go to Tsunade and get stronger without aclosecompanion. Aclosecompanion is the one whose undying will to bring his friend back inspired her, and showed her she had to help him and stop being a dead weight.  

I have to seriously question the seriousness of Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and more importantly the positive effects it has on her character if without aclosecompanion she'd basically have given up on him and stayed the same useless little girl she was when Sasuke was still around.



> IMO, it is utterly pointless for Kishimoto to have developed the Sakura/Sasuke bond to the extent he did, and have her character revolve so strongly on her developing romantic feelings for Sasuke, as well as her desire to strive to become stronger in order to find him, just to have her do a complete 180 and fall for his best friend in his absence.



But is that a coincidence if when her character entirely revolved around Sasuke and her feelings for him she was utterly useless and often portrayed as selfish, unconsiderate and childish (as stated by the author himself) yet once Sasuke left and that she started seeing other people in a different light she grew?

There's a perfectly coherent point in that scenario, problem is you refuse to see it because in your view Sakura's only point in the story is to get inside Sasuke's pants.



> It can be said that from an early stage that Sakura's interaction with Sasuke ultimately shaped and began to develop Sakura's character. Sasuke is the one who told her the truth about her weaknesses from the very beginning, and whether his intentions in doing so were honorable or not, they had an direct impact on Sakura's desire and willingness to change herself. I also point out that Sasuke had in fact done the reverse as well. Upon noticing her feelings of distress before the Chuunin exams, he proceeded to point out her strong points. His complement cannot be argued as inadvertent, for he was truly trying to cheer her up, as he was shown in his own panel smiling to himself as she regained her self-confidence. Sasuke's actions here at an early stage nudge Sakura in the right direction in realizing her self worth, and are  coincidentally (or not) relayed be the person she strives for acknowledgment from. Another thing to point out from this example is that Naruto had _no idea_ of Sakura's worries, and while it can be said that he has an obvious ignorance of such things, shouldn't the one who loves her and supposedly understands her better than anyone else have noticed her poorly hidden discontentment? However, Sasuke is the one shown to not only immediately notice her dejected demeanor, but also seems to know that it is caused by feelings of worthlessness, and shapes his compliment directly to her persona and the root of her worries. He could only have done this through a certain level of understanding of her character, whether he admits it to himself or not. The one who supposedly cares nothing for the "silly girl" shows a level of sensitivity thought not possible of the heartless Uchiha, while the one who is deemed to "lub her wit all his hearrt!!11!" by most NaruSaku-ers is shown to have a clear lack of understanding of her character.



Errr... How does aclosecompanion being too stupid to even notice she's depressed show "a clear lack of understanding of her character"? As you said it was obvious enough, there was no hidden signs only a soulmate could notice here, everything it showed like other instances in part 1 was that aclosecompanion was a total retard and Sasuke a highly intelligent guy.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. You also conveniently forgot to mention that Sasuke was the one responsible for her depression in the first place, yet never seemed to notice it, so he was only making up for it, and also I'm unsure that whole "Sasuke understands Sakura's feelings better than anyone" angle helps your side because that never stopped him to be incredibly and often needlessly harsh with Sakura, hurting her in the process. 

So it basically means that despite knowing full well he'd break her heart he still acted the way he did and made no effort whatsoever to soften the blows, which doesn't really paint his feelings for Sakura in a positive light.

And finally, Sasuke's harsh criticism of Sakura's abilities never prompted her to better herself. You said it yourself, she only started to grow once he left. Which means she made no efforts whatsoever to change, no matter how many times her "one and only love" gently and lovingly belittled and insulted her. What a surprise, I'd have thought this kind of motivational speeches was highly effective!


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## Saunion (Mar 8, 2009)

> In regards to Naruto, I have no doubt that he cares about her immensely and vice versa, but there are no viable reference points in the entirety of the manga to indicate his seriousness in pursuing her romantically. Sakura is even less inclined to do so. As it has been said before, his constant, comedic pestering for dates have been met each in turn with a comedic rejection, with Naruto's feelings on the matter not carried over past the panel following the rejection. Sakura is likewise shown indifferent/uninterested/annoyed with in his childlike advances. Naruto was never shown to be hurt over these rejections, and had no lingering thoughts whatsoever on the matter later on, let alone ANY indication of romantic pondering (or any serious thoughts for that matter) of the girl, unless it involved their mutual desire to retrieve Sasuke.



This is only true for part 2. But if you only mention part 2 then there's even less "viable reference" Sakura is still pursuing Sasuke romantically. However twice in part 1 aclosecompanion was shown clearly hurting after Sakura ignored him in favor of Sasuke. To somehow expect him to show the same kind of reaction in scenes that, as you said, are clearly intended as comic relief seems a bit foolish to me. 



> What Naruto DOES truly understand about Sakura is the depth of her feelings for Sasuke. He ACCEPTS them. He has seen the constant devotion and unwavering care she has shown him, and understands the importance of their influence on each other. The landmark example of this case is the hospital scene, where Naruto watches as Sakura cries and hugs Sasuke close. You may think "heh, big deal, Sakura's hugged him a million times with no obvious outcome," but the fact is, Sasuke _does not push her away_ and accepts her embrace with no signs of protest. This action speaks volumes on how far they've come and how his feelings have evolved, romantically or otherwise. The gravity of the situation allows realization to dawn on Naruto, causing him to utter "Sasuke...you..." while Sasuke accepts her affections. The fact that Naruto can put aside his reservations on the matter for the sole purpose of their happiness is so commendable and in character of him, I can't imagine what he could have done differently to put his character in more high esteem. The look on his face (small, melancholy smile) as he watches them says all that's needed to be said about his acceptance of the genuineness of her feelings and Sasuke's recognition of her as one of his important people. The PoaL is also in accordance with his acceptance and understanding of her feelings, as well as his own desire to retrieve Sasuke: "Sakura-chan, you really like/love Sasuke, huh?" followed by "I know how much pain you're because of Sasuke. I can understand."



Sasuke doesn't push her away because he just woke up from a coma induced by getting tortured for 72 hours, Jesus Christ.

How the hell is your interpretation consistent with him scornfully smacking Sakura's plate of apples away a bit later? If his feelings for Sakura supposedly evolved positively then why is he later behaving in the most thoughtless, cruel way he's ever behaved with her? It makes no sense.



> Now the usual argument would be, "well because Sasuke caused her so much pain, he doesn't 'deserve' her!"  Now if Kishimoto gave in to the relentless arguing about whether or not a character "deserves" someone, Naruto would have every girl falling at his feet to satisfy such reasoning. Sakura is not wavering or having conflicting internal thoughts about which of the males she's going to choose, and whether or not one deserves to be loved over the other. Despite what many may want to believe, Sakura has grown to _know_ Sasuke. She was with him in his weakest moments, knew the pain he was going through due to the cursed seal, and knows what went into his decision to get revenge. Yet she _still_ chose to love him despite his his incredible flaws, those of which caused her to become even more deeply involved with him at an emotional level. This is not a "crush" that simply fades over time nor allows feelings to simply shift from one individual to another. The fact that she is not shown to be obsessing over him in every panel is proof of her growth into a mature person who can handle such feelings without the need to cry and complain in every chapter. Despite popular opinion, she _chose _ to act this way -- "Crying is not going to bring Sasuke-kun back."



And here again we get to the hypocrisy and double standards plaguing SS arguments.

Sakura not being shown obsessing over Sasuke in every panel is undeniable proof that not only she still loves him, but is now an incredibly mature person, all because of her love for Sasuke of course!

Aclosecompanion not being shown obsessing over Sakura in every panel means his feelings for her aren't serious, and that he's a SS shipper.

Make sense of that tripe.



> Sakura is, in essence, a healer. Her multifaceted personality and her actions up to this point have cause many to draw that conclusion. Now, who is the person, upon redemption, that will need healing in as many ways possible, both physically and emotionally? Sasuke. I cannot see Sakura essentially leaving this person alone(as he is in his worst memories) when it is her support that will be needed when the time comes. When writhing in pain, Sasuke has been shown to reach for the hand of the person that is always beside him (Sakura), as well as lean on her for support and rely on her for comfort.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Sasuke doesn't need "healing", this is, pardon my French, asinine shojo-like hogwash that has no place in a Nekketsu Shonen like Naruto. Sasuke will get "emotionally healed" by aclosecompanion's fist of love smacking him in the chops. End of the story. 

Gaara went from scorned pariah to loved leader of his village, and he did it without a girl healing his poor little soul with kisses and hugs and fluffy devotion. And one could argue Gaara suffered an even greater trauma than Sasuke, and also had blood on his hands.

It's once again undermining aclosecompanion's role and importance in the story in order to artificially inflate the relevance of Sakura and Sasuke's relationship. Sorry but that doesn't work that way.



> On NaruHina:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't see how it adds any kind of development to Hinata's character. She has already been shown as someone who could be foolishly brave during her fight against Neji, something like 350 chapters ago. If anything this is downgrading her character since she's basically been confirmed as nothing else but pairing fodder and future wife of the Hokage. If I was a fan of the character I'd be pretty pissed off.

As for the NaruSaku part, I won't focus on it too much because contrary to what it seems I'm not a NS shipper, I'll just say this though, saying there was no credible romantic material between them is highly subjective if not flat out ignoring certain canon material. Once again I'd like to have someone attempt to explain how Sakura's last databook entry is supposed to be interpreted if her lack of interest in aclosecompanion is so obvious and her feelings for him so devoid of ambiguity.




Holy crap that took me forever 

I'm out.


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## Xephrenia (Mar 8, 2009)

KittenLou said:


> I'm also going to have to *strongly* disagree with this.
> *Spoiler*: _chapter 236 pages_
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, to address Sakura's reaction upon learning Sasuke got away: She stands there, sulking "in a state of hopelessness." Do you really think that 
a) Sakura would automatically seem unaffected by the fact that Sasuke--the guy to whom she just confessed a love so strong it was tearing her up inside-- has left for an unforeseeable amount of time, and was even failed to be retrieved by the efforts of his best friend? That does warrant some level of disappointment, especially for a girl in a heightened state of emotional sensitivity. Or that
b) Sakura would sincerely at this point, automatically start formulating an alternate plan to retrieve Sasuke, allowing _no_ time for the shock of the situation to somewhat subside? She hasn't strengthened her resolve yet, so of course it would seem like a hopeless situation for a girl who hasn't realized her full potential.  

At this point, it seems to Sakura as if Sasuke's fate is out of her control, which IS the case at the time. She knows she is not strong enough yet, so she put all her trust in Naruto to bring him back. It is true that she did somewhat selfishly ask that Naruto bring Sasuke back for her, but she did this in a state of complete desperation, fueled by the biting fear that the one she loved would become out of reach for good. 

Its is also true that she unsuccessfully tries to cover up her disappointment by brushing off Naruto's apology. However, she acts disappointed in the face of an apology because it seems as if such a pitying action puts a close on the matter and reinforces her feelings that Sasuke cannot be retrieved. At first it seems to her as if Naruto's apology is saying, "sorry sakura-chan, it's too bad, but i couldn't get sasuke"  but it's not until she sees Naruto has actually kept the resolve to find sasuke that she resolves to change herself as well in order to retrieve the one they've lost. I don't see how this diminishes her feelings for him, it only shows that naruto helped her rekindle her hope in finding him with her own strength.  




Bellville said:


> This was a very nicely done post, however, it didn't address Sakura's horrid behavior towards her "friends" coming from her feelings for Sasuke which Inu was talking about. Those are all the nice points about SS, sure. But it's foolish to look at their situation so positively and not even bring up the negativity associated with it.



Don't get me wrong, no relationship in naruto, or anywhere else for that matter, can be construed as perfect. In fact, the SasuSaku relationship is the farthest from "perfect" in the possible naruto pairings. However, many of its merits are indeed in it's imperfections. The prospective change from tragic, hopeless romance into the redemption of both characters involved gives it a level of interest that has attracted so much of it's fanbase. It's not the cutesy cutesy, perfect, Main guyXMain girl pairing that many claim NaruXSaku to be, but it holds a certain level of possibilities that could ultimately complete and make whole the currently broken Team 7.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 8, 2009)

It's been a while but:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> I don't see how it adds any kind of development to Hinata's character. She has already been shown as someone who could be foolishly brave during her fight against Neji, something like 350 chapters ago. If anything this is downgrading her character since she's basically been confirmed as nothing else but pairing fodder and future wife of the Hokage. If I was a fan of the character I'd be pretty pissed off.



Her confession adds nothing to her character?  So her willingness to stand up and fight for the one she loves is nothing?  

Hinata is one of my favorite characters, and quite frankly I've been waiting for this type of development for years.  It's true she stood up to Neji, but it's also true that there was clearly something else she had yet to accomplish after that fight- namely telling Naruto her feelings with the added effect of _showing _him, on no uncertain terms, just how much she changed.  She was too shy or too insecure to do this before, but she really proves that a thing of the past in chapter 437.

While I'm glad you see the inevitability of NaruHina, I can't agree that she's going to be merely pairing fodder.  One, because I fully expect to see her new jutsu in action.  Two, because we have yet to know Naruto's take on the confession.  And three, with Cloud country coming and Hanabi and Hiashi away there's room for a Hyuuga arc. 
So while I expect to be a romance focus for some of her screentime, this being shounen I hardly think it will be the end all reason for any of her future appearances.


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## Bellville (Mar 9, 2009)

saskura said:


> First of all, to address Sakura's reaction upon learning Sasuke got away: She stands there, sulking "in a state of hopelessness." Do you really think that
> a) Sakura would automatically seem unaffected by the fact that Sasuke--the guy to whom she just confessed a love so strong it was tearing her up inside-- has left for an unforeseeable amount of time, and was even failed to be retrieved by the efforts of his best friend? That does warrant some level of disappointment, especially for a girl in a heightened state of emotional sensitivity. Or that
> b) Sakura would sincerely at this point, automatically start formulating an alternate plan to retrieve Sasuke, allowing _no_ time for the shock of the situation to somewhat subside? She hasn't strengthened her resolve yet, so of course it would seem like a hopeless situation for a girl who hasn't realized her full potential.


I agree that Sakura should be given a break after her heart was broken by the guy. Of course she's going to mope around after something like that. But I also agree that she would've given up on him if not for Naruto's (naive, IMO) determination. Sakura got a definite reality check during the goodbye scene, by her own words and by Sasuke's. She acknowledged the rift that has always existed between them and he brought up how futile her efforts were. She tried to reason with him, and she tried just about everything she could think of to get him to stay. In her desperation she ran to Naruto. The closest person to him couldn't bring him back. Only a fool would try to go after him again(especially romantically) after that episode.  



> Don't get me wrong, no relationship in naruto, or anywhere else for that matter, can be construed as perfect. In fact, the SasuSaku relationship is the farthest from "perfect" in the possible naruto pairings. However, many of its merits are indeed in it's imperfections. The prospective change from tragic, hopeless romance into the redemption of both characters involved gives it a level of interest that has attracted so much of it's fanbase. It's not the cutesy cutesy, perfect, Main guyXMain girl pairing that many claim NaruXSaku to be, but it holds a certain level of possibilities that could ultimately complete and make whole the currently broken Team 7.



Ultimately complete the broken Team 7? Sorry-- No romance is necessary for that. Pairings between the members of team 7 inevitably push one of the members away. Sakura will not be the one to heal Sasuke's heart, it's been repeated that Naruto will be the one to "save" Sasuke. Not only are Sakura's feelings ambiguous, but it's debatable who she is bringing Sasuke back _for_, now that she has seen the toll Sasuke's absence is taking on Naruto. I don't think it needs to be debated that he's more affected by Sasuke than she is. She can cope without him, but Naruto can't accept things that way. It's not hard to surmise that her motivation for getting Sasuke back would not be for her own happiness and piece of mind, but for Naruto's.(By the way I'm not trying to argue for NaruSaku here).


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## N120 (Mar 9, 2009)

Just a quick question:


*Spoiler*: __ 



How comes NaruHina is allowed but not SasuKarin? i would've thought that their pairing could also be a possibility?

 It seems rather unfair and a bit forced, if one way or the other sasuke doesnt get a choice even though he has a potential bond with karin, and no matter what sakura is forced on to one of them as a pairing!

its like a lose/lose situation.

 whereas the reality is pretty much different! sasuke may very well end up with karin and naruto with hinata and sakura with someone else. by not allowing us to bring in all the cannon information and possibilities we cant really argue which pairing is more likely or how others thing effect the possible listed pairings.   

im just saying, its all slightly unbalanced and will create fights between naru/sak vs sasu/sak, just a shame sasuke doesnt have any other option but to die single or with sakura, that just seemed a little unfair to me.

, unless im mistaken and evidences of outside influence can be introduced to refute a pairing without declaring another pairing?  




*SASU/SAKU?*​
 I dont think sasuke has any real feelings for sakura, that was established long ago when he left her knocked out on the bench, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 and the current moment he has created bonds with other people and has shown to care for them as much he would for t7, and if segetsus whispering is tobe interpretted in a cirtain way, it would imply that sasuke may very well be getting more friendly one member than most




he's moved on and as things change so will his interactions with others around him, this leads me to question the sasu/saku pairing. 

 this pairig for as long as i can remember has always been pretty onesided just like how naruto crush was a onesided affair in part one, im sad to say that remains true even in part 2.


*NaruHina/narusaku?*​

 As for nauhina or narusaku, thats pretty much already become clear IMO, the only thing we have now is speculation as to which naruto will react to recent events: spoilers look away now 

*Spoiler*: __ 





This is the most heavily fought battle, naru/hina or naru/saku? does naruto reject the girl who just outrate confessed her love for him and almost died saving his life or does he keep going round in circles for someone who has shown no interest in him, and has clearly said she like someone else?

now people make the mistake here of arguing about what hinata did and what her actions meant, or how sakura is starting to warm to him and what not..but thats not really important anymore as its now upto naruto to make choice!

 they've done what they have either overtly or covertly to convince the boy of their love/feeling/friendship etc etc that issue is over and done with! but now its really upto him to decides which girls effection is he going to accept and which one is he willing reject?

and heres how i see it carrying out.

according to Naruto sakura has no interest in him, she resject his advances and as far as he's aware, she still cares deeply about sasuke (how much he can only speculate, but he wont bring it up as it brings up 'issues').
but after 437, naruto has heard the words hes never heard before, liking is one thing, sure he's willing to go on a few dates and try his hand in the world of romance, but for someone to offer him love with nothing in return other than his safety must have sent his brains haywire.

 If hinata survives then, this is something completely new for him, a chance to move forward like any other person, a chance that he may never had had if (from his point of view) if he continued chasing sakura.

 sure, he may still like sakura but does he love her ? no! sure he may have felt sakura was his dream girl at one point, maybe he still does but to him thats all it is, a dream and not a reality. the reality is the confession and offer is the chance..maybe he will give it a try, he has nothing to lose after all.


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## Crackers (Mar 9, 2009)

saskura said:


> First of all, to address Sakura's reaction upon learning Sasuke got away: She stands there, sulking "in a state of hopelessness." Do you really think that
> a) Sakura would automatically seem unaffected by the fact that Sasuke--the guy to whom she just confessed a love so strong it was tearing her up inside-- has left for an unforeseeable amount of time, and was even failed to be retrieved by the efforts of his best friend? That does warrant some level of disappointment, especially for a girl in a heightened state of emotional sensitivity. Or that
> b) Sakura would sincerely at this point, automatically start formulating an alternate plan to retrieve Sasuke, allowing _no_ time for the shock of the situation to somewhat subside? She hasn't strengthened her resolve yet, so of course it would seem like a hopeless situation for a girl who hasn't realized her full potential.


Uh, I don't even know how to respond to this because I don't even know what your point is. Nowhere did I imply that Sakura was not going to be effected by the fact that Sasuke slipped from her grasp not once, but twice. I didn't even say she should not have stood there in shock and disappointment and sulk. 

In fact, I expected her reaction. It's understandable.



> At this point, it seems to Sakura as if Sasuke's fate is out of her control, which IS the case at the time. She knows she is not strong enough yet, so she put all her trust in Naruto to bring him back. It is true that she did somewhat selfishly ask that Naruto bring Sasuke back for her, but she did this in a state of complete desperation, fueled by the biting fear that the one she loved would become out of reach for good.


 There's nothing to argue about here. 



> Its is also true that she unsuccessfully tries to cover up her disappointment by brushing off Naruto's apology. However, she acts disappointed in the face of an apology because it seems as if such a pitying action puts a close on the matter and *reinforces her feelings that Sasuke cannot be retrieved*. At first it seems to her as if Naruto's apology is saying, "sorry sakura-chan, it's too bad, but i couldn't get sasuke"


You basically just agreed with my argument. 

Sakura truly believed that Sasuke could not be retrieved. If Naruto failed to do it, if Naruto who Sakura trusts completely and has managed to do *anything* if not everything, then what hope left was there for Sakura to get Sasuke back? 

When Sakura brushes off Naruto's apology, she's telling him not to worry about it not only because it (the apology) "puts a close on the matter", but because she's given up any hope there is to getting the boy she confessed to loving back. 




> but it's not until she sees Naruto has actually kept the resolve to find sasuke that she resolves to change herself as well in order to retrieve the one they've lost. I don't see how this diminishes her feelings for him, it only shows that naruto helped her rekindle her hope in finding him with her own strength.


If she isn't willing to fight to get back Sasuke, then she's essentially giving up on the very feelings she claimed she had for him. 

It's not until _Naruto_ reinforces his promise that hope is rekindled in her and she decides to help. It is not Sasuke's memory that makes up her mind or motivates her to become stronger, it is Naruto's words to her.


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## FDEL (Mar 9, 2009)

Wow, this thread grows quickly and the posts are long, lol...



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> The "current development" you claim to be "too sudden to be satisfying" is no more than Hinata finally making Naruto aware of her feelings, which has been hinted at and foreshadowed throughout her appearances, and her interference in this fight sufficiently foreshadowed in 434. The way some are arguing you'd think Kishi made Naruto fall in love with her the moment the words left her lips. 437 is only the beginning of the end, if Kishi intends NaruHina of course.



*Spoiler*: __ 



In the first few chapters of the manga, Hinata's feelings for Naruto is revealed.
In the second arc of the manga, Naruto says he likes Hinata's person.
...
...
...
Years pass in our time
...
Two year time-skip in naruto time
...
...
...
(state prior to second most recent chapter: exactly the same as before, and then...)
Confession
Official Couple (hypothetical)




This will be the timeline if Naruto accepts Hinata's feelings right about now. Clearly, it's too sudden to be satisfying. I'm not saying it's unrealistic, just too sudden to be satisfying.

I know what you're saying though, you're saying that being a couple doesn't mean insta-love, and that lots of development could happen afterwards. I agree with this, I can see this, and this is the reason why I'm saying it's not unrealistic. As for the too sudden to be satisfying part, I guess I'm just of the opinion that in storyline romances, development should come before canonhood because you get more valuable romances this way. See, even if it doesn't mean insta-love, Naruto accepting Hinata's feeling now - this "start" would catch a lot of people off guard, and would certainly seem very random in the context of a storyline.

Of course, different people have different opinions.


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## Kanai (Mar 9, 2009)

N120 said:


> Just a quick question:
> 
> *SASU/SAKU?*​
> 
> ...


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## tyheru (Mar 9, 2009)

This is what kutweer (my brother) wrote on the subject:

Okay, as a disclaimer, let me mention that I have no problem with Naruto/Sakura and if people want to like that pairing they have the right to do so. It can happen Kishi decides he wants it to happen:

There are a lot of reasons why I don't like NaruSaku, and why I like NaruHina. The biggest reason I do not like NaruSaku though, is because in real life, knowing what we know about the laws of attraction, NaruSaku wouldn't happen. 

Every guy here on this forum, should know what "the friend zone" is. They know that once a guy falls in the friend zone, it's near impossible to get out. Most guy here also know that girls prefer tough guys than the "nice guy".

All through out part one, Naruto came off as being needy, clingy, overly nice and desperate toward Sakura. All the things that Naruto did and all the things that Naruto was towards Sakura the majority of girls would consider a turn off. It's a mistake a lot of guys make when they don't know how to attract women, and Naruto kept making this mistake. So all through out part one, Sakura didn't like Naruto, not even as a friend. She learned to tolerate Naruto, but up until the Sasuke retrieval arc I'm sure Sakura wouldn't have mind if for some reason she and Naruto stopped talking.

In part two things change a little. naruto comes back and Sakura seems interested in Naruto's growth, and learns to sympathize with Naruto's pain and suffering. but Naruto for the most part still comes off as immature around Sakura. He's not as clingy or needy or desperate as he appeared in part one though, so that's in his favor. And there have been some interactions where it would appear Sakura cares deeply for Naruto, and Naruto might still like her. Although it's not really mentioned how Naruto feels for Sakura anymore.

Hinata on the other hand saw a different version of Naruto. She knew the Naruto that trained hard and never gave up, and always endured no matter what was thrown against him. Hinata fell in love with a different Naruto than the Naruto Sakura saw. If Naruto acted around Hinata the way he acted around Sakura, Hinata would not have fallen for him either. And men view the whole friend zone and niceness thing different than women do. So for naruto to find out that Hinata was in fact in love with him might mean a lot more to him, than Naruto's love meant to Sakura, at least in part 1.

And also, everybody would appreciate what Hinata did for Naruto if someone did it for them. I get NaruSaku fans don't like NaruHina, but don't downplay that last scene. Every single guy would love it if a beautiful girl did that for them. He wouldn't fall in love with her per se, but definitely get to know her better.

And the reason Naruto liked Sakura so much in part 1 was because Sakura was the first to accept him, before she was told to hate him like the other kids. Sakura was nice to him in the beginning, so Naruto liked her.


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## The Duchess (Mar 9, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It's been a while but:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


You're back. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Inevitable? I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong about Hinata only admiring Naruto, but there's no way NH's inevitable after this.

Hinata told Naruto she loved him, so what? Does this mean he has to fall for her now? Last time I checked, he was into someone else. 

And as a NH shipper, do you really want Naruto to date her out of guilt? Really?

I do agree that we will see a new jutsu from her. I'm pretty sure that Lion Jutsu was meant to be shown at some point.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Mar 10, 2009)

tyheru said:


> This is what kutweer (my brother) wrote on the subject:
> 
> Okay, as a disclaimer, let me mention that I have no problem with Naruto/Sakura and if people want to like that pairing they have the right to do so. It can happen Kishi decides he wants it to happen:
> 
> ...



*Real life, laws of attraction. "The friend zone"*
Okay..... Let's talk about that. Girls prefer the 'tough guys' than the 'nice guys'.

Sakura doesn't just see him as a nice guy, she has seen him as a tough guy. We have seen how her perception keep getting changed every time he shows that he is indeed a tough guy. 

1.Sakura was surprised when Naruto took Kakashi by surprise in the bell test.

(We don't need to count that. But that itself was the first point in which Sakura came to learn more about Narut than what she initially thought.)

2.Sakura was surprised when Naruto began to step up in his match against Zabuza. The blush (Okay, we go for the direct 'it's not love') she had when Naruto said he wasn't going to run away and fought Zabuza with Sasuke.

Despite the fact that he lost when it came to the bell test, when it appeared to her that he and Sasuke lost to Haku, they were stepping grounds to getting to know Naruto. These first few instances along with his constant confidence and dream to being Hokage had proved Sakura that he was indeed a tough guy. She herself was about to raise her hands in the Chuunin written test in thinking off of Naruto. 

Furthermore, Sakura knew Naruto was tough enough because she already believed in him getting back on his feet after being hit by Kiba in the Preliminary Fights of the Chuunin exam. He was the tough guy, he handled the situation quite good, to a point Sakura came into agreement and inevitably Sasuke too, at the time Sasuke was scared when facing Orochimaru in the Forest of Death. Naruto showed his worth even more when he had beat Neji.    

If you want to talk how Sakura wouldn't be attracted to Naruto because he was more of a nice guy than a tough guy, Naruto himself has shown that he was the tough guy that she could count on. Perhaps most characterization of Naruto has been shown as being the nice guy, but even the nice guys are shown to be tough. 

1.Sakura called upon Naruto's return after all the devastation after the Akatsuki attack. Would you deny she doesn't think as the guy who is tough enough to handle the situation?

She would know his progress, his strength, having known that he took out Kakuzu with his Rasenshuriken.

2.
*Spoiler*: __ 



She showed signs of being astounded, surprised, whatever it is you want to interpret, after being told by a Hyuuga that Naruto took out one of Pain's body with just one hit.





*You or your brother mentioned that:*
*Spoiler*: __ 




And also, everybody would appreciate what Hinata did for Naruto if someone did it for them. I get NaruSaku fans don't like NaruHina, but don't downplay that last scene. Every single guy would love it if a beautiful girl did that for them. He wouldn't fall in love with her per se, but definitely get to know her better.

Okay, we go for the neutral perspective in which we don't downplay the last scene. He wouldn't fall in love with her per se, but definitely get to know her better. 

So she comes to the rescue but loses anyway, doesn't mean he'll love her.
We take a look at Sakura and how Lee came to the rescue, showed his worth before Zaku, Dosu, and Kin. Lee lost. Her perspective of Lee was changed, doesn't necessarily mean they fell in love. Lee astounded her, Sakura came to know and respect him more, but after all this time, we don't see them falling in love.  



*You and/or your brother says:* 
And there have been *some interactions* where it would appear Sakura *cares deeply for Naruto*, and Naruto might still like her. Although it's not really mentioned how Naruto feels for Sakura anymore.


It would appear that Sakura cares deeply for Naruto. Naruto might still like her. Your brother has grown to admit from the faint signs or evidences (whatever it is that has come to influence that belief) shown from the interactions itself. The degree you want to debate that of Naruto's feelings for Sakura is just as debatable as Sasuke's feelings for Sakura or Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. We just don't know the exact standing between 

1.Sasuke and Sakura
2.Sakura and Sasuke
3.Naruto and Sakura

But we do that there is at least a basis to what establishes between Naruto and his feelings for Sakura, but not to what degree. If you base your pairing as NarutoHinata based on the fact that Hinata has feelings for Naruto, just as how Sakura has feelings for Sasuke during Part 1, then why would it be any different to anyone who bases Naruto and Sakura with her deep care and possible yet unidentified feelings for Naruto. Because Hinata and Naruto was no different to the debate in the beginning that her feelings were admiration, then why can't NaruSaku be debated as developing yet unidentified growing feelings between them?


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## moonjump05 (Mar 10, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> You're back.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Yes'm


*Spoiler*: __ 



The inevitable thing was me being smartass...

Hinata telling Naruto she loves him is huge.  Least of all to NaruHina shippers- we knew that already, but namely to _Naruto_.  This is the guy who's spent the entirety of the manga trying to make bonds with other people and the first time someone has told him that.(Expressly at least and overly romantic, it seems implied with characters like the rest of team 7 and Iruka and such.)

Not to mention the reasons she spells out for him- that he showed her the right way and that's she's willing to die protecting him.  The protecting others is a huge theme in this manga and highlights many of the closest bonds.

It doesn't mean he has to fall for her, but it certainly opens his eyes.  And why would it be out of guilt?  He likes Hinata as a person, and if there's one thing Naruto doesn't do is take actions out of pity.

Also I've argued before that Naruto's crush on Sakura seems to have waned over Part 2- it's probably something we'll disagree on- so from his point of view it's kinda 'why not?'  Here's someone we likes as a person who just declared her love for him while standing up to the guy who destroyed Konoha.

We'll have to wait and see how it goes down but I doubt he's going to reject her outright.


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## tyheru (Mar 10, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Good response to the laws of attraction post. I suppose in the end we need to see Naruto's reaction to Hinata and Sakura's reaction to Hinata's sacrifice.



But on a different topic, has any one here notice that a lot of people who dislike NaruHina and Hinata in general are girls, and a lot of people who dislike NaruSaku are boys? In friend group, of the people who like NaruHina, all are boys. And those that dislike NaruHina, all are girls. On this forum also it seems that a lot of the NaruHina defenders are boys and the NaruHina haters and Hinata haters in general are girls.

This makes sense of course, since Hinata represent a female stereotype that most girls find repulsive and most guys find endearing. A girl like Hinata would've constantly been teased and looked down upon in High School, especially by the other girls. Just an interesting obsevation, I think. someone should make a thread to find out if this is true or not.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 10, 2009)

tyheru said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't really find that assessment to be accurate.
Personal experience aside, the shipping population is largely skewed in favor of women, making such an assumption nearly impossible to prove.


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## Damaris (Mar 10, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





tyheru said:


> Good response to the laws of attraction post. I suppose in the end we need to see Naruto's reaction to Hinata and Sakura's reaction to Hinata's sacrifice.
> 
> But on a different topic, has any one here notice that a lot of people who dislike NaruHina and Hinata in general are girls, and a lot of people who dislike NaruSaku are boys? In friend group, of the people who like NaruHina, all are boys. And those that dislike NaruHina, all are girls. On this forum also it seems that a lot of the NaruHina defenders are boys and the NaruHina haters and Hinata haters in general are girls.
> 
> This makes sense of course, since Hinata represent a female stereotype that most girls find repulsive and most guys find endearing. A girl like Hinata would've constantly been teased and looked down upon in High School, especially by the other girls. Just an interesting obsevation, I think. someone should make a thread to find out if this is true or not.



This is drastically off topic, but a girl like Hinata made fun of and looked down on in high school? I don't think so at all. She's quiet, so what? She doesn't act like a "freak" except for at the beginning of part 1, and that's only around Naruto. She might have been ignored by the "in crowd", but she'd certainly have friends and such.

/off topic ness


NaruHina I feel is almost inevitable after this. I'm the first to say I'm apathetic about the pairing, so I try to be unbiased. But I feel there is no reason to have Hinata confess like this UNLESS she's going to end up with Naruto. Her feelings could have otherwise easily been written as admiration otherwise.


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## Drunkenwhale (Mar 10, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> NaruHina I feel is almost inevitable after this. I'm the first to say I'm apathetic about the pairing, so I try to be unbiased. But I feel there is no reason to have Hinata confess like this UNLESS she's going to end up with Naruto. Her feelings could have otherwise easily been written as admiration otherwise.



I'd still count this a spoiler...


*Spoiler*: __ 




Considering we've already had a confession of love before dealing with another pairing and the end result wasn't a "Love conquers all official pairing" type situation everything is still up in the air with NaruHina.

And for my little off-topicness Hinata's condition is not set in stone, as well as Naruto's response. She may die, he may gently reject her. These next few chapters will definately tell us the answer to both of these questions.






"The Friend Zone" discussed earlier does not apply to ficitonal characters. This example has been broken in numerous examples and is likely to break here. The laws of shipping is written by author and author alone.


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## Damaris (Mar 10, 2009)

Drunkenwhale said:


> I'd still count this a spoiler...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I doubt that she's going to die, especially now that she's been shown alive. But the fact remains that SasuSaku and NaruHina are the only pairings with stated romantic intent, even if at this point, both are one sided. Both are not needed. Sakura could have just as easily tried to get Sasuke to stay by using their bond as a team instead of saying she LOVED him. Hinata's feelings could have remained uncertain and been written off as admiration, instead of getting almost a whole chapter devoted to her confession. As people always say this ~isn't~ a shojo manga. Love triangles and confessions that go nowhere aren't a typical shounen style. Why would Kishi have both girls confess love if nothing is going to come of it?


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 10, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that she's going to die, especially now that she's been shown alive. But the fact remains that SasuSaku and NaruHina are the only pairings with stated romantic intent, even if at this point, both are one sided. Both are not needed. Sakura could have just as easily tried to get Sasuke to stay by using their bond as a team instead of saying she LOVED him. Hinata's feelings could have remained uncertain and been written off as admiration, instead of getting almost a whole chapter devoted to her confession. As people always say this ~isn't~ a shojo manga. Love triangles and confessions that go nowhere aren't a typical shounen style. Why would Kishi have both girls confess love if nothing is going to come of it?




*Spoiler*: __ 



In Sakura's case, growth of her own character was one of the driving aspects of her character. She's one girl who never understood herself in part 1, and it showed, so when she says something be prepared to think the opposite. For Hinata..it was also a subplot that needed to be closed apparently, and this is possibly a way that Kishimoto thought to do it without turning it all shoujouish, and instead incorporating it into the plot. Nothing is set in stone atm


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## amblica (Mar 11, 2009)

Isn't NaruSaku also a pairing with "stated romantic intent"? What happened to Naruto's feelings for Sakura, which have practically existed since the very beginning, coupled with the developing closeness shared by the two?


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 11, 2009)

amblica said:


> Isn't NaruSaku also a pairing with "stated romantic intent"? What happened to Naruto's feelings for Sakura, which have practically existed since the very beginning, coupled with the developing closeness shared by the two?



These feelings are easily able to be made a case of IMO..but things have reached a point where they could swing either way depending on what Kishimoto wants to do with it, granted one side may be abit grasping to some, but its two roads and we'll have to wait to see what goes on with that.


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## Emily (Mar 11, 2009)

amblica said:


> Isn't NaruSaku also a pairing with "stated romantic intent"? What happened to Naruto's feelings for Sakura, which have practically existed since the very beginning, coupled with the developing closeness shared by the two?



They don't exist of course because he never stalked or obsessed with Sakura. Oh and because he never confessed his love in a selfish manner. He just thinks she's amazing and beautiful and cares about her feelings. Stuff like that doesn't matter because if he asks her for a date it's simply because he wants to bring some comedy into their angsty lives. 

Seriously...


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 11, 2009)

Caran said:


> They don't exist of course because he never stalked or obsessed with Sakura. Oh and because he never confessed his love in a selfish manner. He just thinks she's amazing and beautiful and cares about her feelings. Stuff like that doesn't matter because if he asks her for a date it's simply because he wants to bring some comedy into their angsty lives.
> 
> Seriously...



And apparently also Naruto's feelings were proven to be "just a selfish crush, infatuation, and just plain detriment to his entire character, he didn't summon his first boss summon because of her, he didn't swear to bring back sasuke partially because he wanted to see her smile, he didn't do any of that other crap either apparently, so it doesn't count


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## Damaris (Mar 11, 2009)

amblica said:


> Isn't NaruSaku also a pairing with "stated romantic intent"? What happened to Naruto's feelings for Sakura, which have practically existed since the very beginning, coupled with the developing closeness shared by the two?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto's feelings for Sakura from the beginning, have been overshadowed by his bond with Sasuke. For Hinata, no one overshadows her love for Naruto. For Sakura, no one (romantically) overshadows her bond with Sasuke. These two girls have said they love Naruto and Sasuke, and have been proved willing to die for them. Are Sakura and Naruto important to each other? Yes. But neither of them has stated feelings (other than Naruto saying she was attractive) in part 2 that can be interpreted as platonic or romantic. 

If Hinata's feelings were a subplot, why put them in at all? It would be so much easier for Kishi just to write her without having a crush on Naruto, having her come into her own strength without viewing him romantically. But Sasuke has been the main point of growth for Sakura (along with Naruto, yes) and Hinata has used Naruto to become stronger. But for Naruto's feelings for Sakura have never been developed as definitely romantic. He has never confessed love for her. I can't remember the last time he expressed romantic interest for her outside of "you look cute" or something like that. He has been shown growing closer to her, as a FRIEND. What is so wrong about that?


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## JJ (Mar 11, 2009)

Staff has been seeing a lot of posts in this thread lately not following the spoiler tag rule. Manga spoilers must be tagged. A moderator should not have to come and tag it for you.  If you're not sure, *TAG* it anyway. 



> *4. Remember to place all manga information in spoiler tags.
> 
> For more information go here.
> [DLMURL]http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=291547[/DLMURL]*




Carry on.


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## amblica (Mar 11, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Characters do not need to state their feelings for those feelings to actually exist. If that's the case, tsundere characters would always end up alone. What's more important than what a character says are his actions and the responses of other characters to them. Sure, Naruto's verbal expressions of his feelings for Sakura toned down a lot in part 2, but his actions speak for themselves.

Nobody is even denying that NaruHina has "stated romantic intent", but romance is indeed a subplot in the manga. While Hinata has used Naruto as inspiration to become stronger, in no way does that mean that Hinata will end up with Naruto. Rock Lee is a good example of that. Of course, nobody can really be sure what the final pairings are, and that is why this debate thread exists in the first place. The point is, it is way too early to claim that only NH and SS are romantic pairings and completely dismiss NS.


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## Damaris (Mar 11, 2009)

amblica said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't mean to completely dismiss NS, but it stands on much weaker ground. Naruto's feelings for Sakura were never as expanded upon in part 1 as much as Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were, and he doesn't treat her the way one treats a girl one likes. Romantic intent doesn't make a pairing canon, but it helps a pairing out a good deal more than feelings that are up for debate.


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## amblica (Mar 11, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean to completely dismiss NS, but it stands on much weaker ground. Naruto's feelings for Sakura were never as expanded upon in part 1 as much as Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were, and he doesn't treat her the way one treats a girl one likes. Romantic intent doesn't make a pairing canon, but it helps a pairing out a good deal more than feelings that are up for debate.




*Spoiler*: __ 




Naruto's relationship with Sakura has received a great deal more attention in part 2 than the former with Hinata and the latter with Sasuke. If we were talking purely about part 1 of the manga, then yes, I would agree that NS is on shaky ground. That is not the case at this point in time.

It is unclear whether romantic intent on the part of one party when both people aren't close friends is a stronger prelude to a canon pairing than two  best friends who have no romantic intent at all. That, however, is irrelevant here. There is romantic intent on Naruto's part, though not always verbal, and this has been shown time and again. What is actually up for debate is whether Sakura returns those feelings.


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## tyheru (Mar 11, 2009)

Nothing against NaruSaku, but when has Naruto shown romantic intent for Sakura in part 2? I can think of one manga case where Naruto wonders if Sakura feeding him is akin to a date, and there are a few fillers in the anime that Naruto wants to see Sakura naked. But outright love I haven't seen at all, but I could've missed it. The part where he wonders if it's a date seems more like a joke set up than anything else, and while it does hint sexual attraction it doesn't mean that Naruto still loves her. I've seen more hints in part 2 that Sakura might be developing feelings for Naruto, than Naruto being in love with Sakura.


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## Kael Hyun (Mar 11, 2009)

tyheru said:


> Nothing against NaruSaku, but when has Naruto shown romantic intent for Sakura in part 2? I can think of one manga case where Naruto wonders if Sakura feeding him is akin to a date, and there are a few fillers in the anime that Naruto wants to see Sakura naked. But outright love I haven't seen at all, but I could've missed it. The part where he wonders if it's a date seems more like a joke set up than anything else, and while it does hint sexual attraction it doesn't mean that Naruto still loves her. I've seen more hints in part 2 that Sakura might be developing feelings for Naruto, than Naruto being in love with Sakura.



Thats because we already know of Naruto's atraction to Sakura, but we have hardly seen Sakura's atraction to Naruto but it has ALWAYS been hinted at in the manga.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 11, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Naruto's relationship with Sakura has received a great deal more attention in part 2 than the former with Hinata and the latter with Sasuke. If we were talking purely about part 1 of the manga, then yes, I would agree that NS is on shaky ground. That is not the case at this point in time.



Of course Naruto and Sakura's relationship has gotten more attention- they are two parts of the three main characters.  Besides which their bond was greatly neglected in part 1 in favor of Naruto-Sasuke and Sakura-Sasuke bonds.  They needed this development which was only really possible with Sasuke out of the picture to happen.

However, this doesn't mean that the great leaps and bounds their bond has made have become romantic.  And to me it looks that way, the strengthening of their friendship.





> It is unclear whether romantic intent on the part of one party when both people aren't close friends is a stronger prelude to a canon pairing than two best friends who have no romantic intent at all. That, however, is irrelevant here. There is romantic intent on Naruto's part, though not always verbal, and this has been shown time and again. What is actually up for debate is whether Sakura returns those feelings.



Naruto's serious romantic intent is rather debatable really... the more time passes the less interested he is about dates and so forth.

Sakura hasn't shown any sign of changing her romantic opinion of Naruto at all.  Just the general care and concern that a good friend and teammate should show.


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## Damaris (Mar 11, 2009)

amblica said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




But Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura have NOT been addressed in any serious way. The dates ARE mostly played for comedy, and they spend most of their time together discussing Sasuke. Naruto isn't shown to be thinking of her when they aren't together. And all their important moments are not romantic. They can be interpreted as romantic, but also as platonic. They are not for sure romantic, the way, say oh, being willing to give up your village and confessing love for someone is romantic.


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## Tenrol (Mar 11, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 


what bonds? getting rejected and that you're annoying?




Marina Ismail said:


> They are not for sure romantic, the way, say oh, being willing to give up your village and confessing love for someone is romantic.



Was way too selfish to be romantic. Wait even Kishimoto said Sakura's love for Sasuke was selfish nothing new here and DB3 is stating she only had a similar love for Sasuke not actual love.


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## tyheru (Mar 11, 2009)

> Thats because we already know of Naruto's atraction to Sakura, but we have hardly seen Sakura's atraction to Naruto but it has ALWAYS been hinted at in the manga.



I'm not talking about attraction, I'm talking about love. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single evidence that Naruto loves Sakura in part 2. The major argument for anti NaruHina fans is that Naruto will reject Hinata because he loves Sakura. I'm just asking, where is the love?



> Was way too selfish too be romantic



I don't know what your definition of selfish or romantic is, but risking and sacrificing your life to save the one you love is not selfish. If I was in Naruto's position and a girl did that for me I would look at that girl in a whole different light. 

If Sakura had done what Hinata did, would it have been selfish then?


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## moonjump05 (Mar 11, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> what bonds? getting rejected and that you're annoying?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Sasuke-Sakura bond in part 1 was given much more attention than the Naruto-Sakura one... and actually developed to the point of care from both sides.  The sum it up like you are is not the whole picture.

I really doubt


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's confession




was seriously supposed to be considered a selfish act.


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## Tenrol (Mar 11, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> The Sasuke-Sakura bond in part 1 was given much more attention than the Naruto-Sakura one... and actually developed to the point of care from both sides.  The sum it up like you are is not the whole picture.
> 
> I really doubt
> 
> ...



Well their bonds sucked honestly. And i don't see how Sasusaku bonds was given more attention other than Sakura being rejected Sasuke telling that she was annoying. oh i forgot Sasuke complimented her one time.  



*Spoiler*: __ 



And i never mentioned Hinata's confession. BTW, even Hinata herself said she was being selfish. So it's selfish.


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## Tenrol (Mar 11, 2009)

tyheru said:


> I don't know what your definition of selfish or romantic is, but risking and sacrificing your life to save the one you love is not selfish. If I was in Naruto's position and a girl did that for me I would look at that girl in a whole different light.
> 
> If Sakura had done what Hinata did, would it have been selfish then?




Did have i ever mentionned.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata confession?


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## Damaris (Mar 11, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well their bonds sucked honestly. And i don't see how Sasusaku bonds was given more attention other than Sakura being rejected Sasuke telling that she was annoying. oh i forgot Sasuke complimented her one time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




Dude. I don't even ship NaruHina, but if you think that risking your life for the person you love when they are pinned to the ground, utterly helpless and in the hands of someone who wants to kill them, _when you are willing to die for the chance they can keep living, no matter how small the chance_, when you value their life above your own--if you think that is selfish I think you need to find a dictionary.

SasuSaku bond in part 1? I think you missed the part where: a) she broke him out of curse seal mode, b) she was willing to die for him c) he called her one of his precious people and told Naruto to save her

He didn't REJECT her. He said THANK YOU. Not a typical rejection line.


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## Tenrol (Mar 11, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 







*Spoiler*: __ 



You know Hinata herself said she was being selfish. so she said it for the lulz then? 






> she broke him out of curse seal mode




Team 7 bonds. Even Naruto broke him out of curse seal mode



> b) she was willing to die for him


 
Again Team 7 bonds. She'll do everything to Team7



> c) he called her one of his precious people and told Naruto to save her



right atleast she's more than a teamate to him.



> He didn't REJECT her. He said THANK YOU. Not a typical rejection line.



I wasn't talking about that confession but whatever.


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## Damaris (Mar 11, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Tenrol said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...








*Spoiler*: __ 



So when Sakura confesses love to Sasuke, is shown to be willing to die for him and willing to betray her village, it's Team 7 bonds. But when she doesn't confess her love for Naruto, or be shown willing to die for him and rejects his dates...she loves him?

I'm not even going to respond to Hinata doing it for the lulz.


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## tyheru (Mar 11, 2009)

> You know Hinata herself said she was being selfish. so she said it for the lulz then?



When Hinata said she was being selfish, it was when she was refusing to run away. She finally stood up for what she believed in and proved to herself that she wasn't some weak stalker. She may have said it was selfish, but that doesn't mean it actually was selfish. Or if it was selfish, then anything we do is selfish. When I take a girl to the movies, I'm being selfish. When I tell her I love her, I'm selfish. When I ask her to marry me, I'm selfish.



> Team 7 bonds. Even Naruto broke him out of curse seal mode



When did Naruto break the Sause out of curse seal mode?



> Again Team 7 bonds. She'll do everything to Team7



I don't think Sakura would've died for Naruto or Kakashi in part 1. In part 2, sure. But part one, no. At least not in the same sense that she would've died for Sasuke.


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## Tenrol (Mar 11, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> So when Sakura confesses love to Sasuke, is shown to be willing to die for him and willing to betray her village, it's Team 7 bonds. But when she doesn't confess her love for Naruto, or be shown willing to die for him and rejects his dates...she loves him?



When i said this? please remind me. because. I'm kinda lost here.





> I'm not even going to respond to Hinata doing it for the lulz.




No you said 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata was being selfish even though Hinata herself said she was being selfish so i was wondering if she said it for the lulz. if she wasn't








> When did Naruto break the Sause out of curse seal mode?



Here..speed

Team 7 bonds





> I don't think Sakura would've died for Naruto or Kakashi in part 1. In part 2, sure. But part one, no. At least not in the same sense that she would've died for Sasuke.




proof of this?


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## Damaris (Mar 11, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> When i said this? please remind me. because. I'm kinda lost here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You said Sakura was only caring for Sasuke because of Team 7 bonds. And I gathered the fact that you ship NaruSaku from that you post in that fc, and shipping them is usually a requirement for that. And NaruSaku works on the assumption they love each other, so I went from there.

Sorry for taking the lulz thing wrong.


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## tyheru (Mar 11, 2009)

> Here..takes a great deal of chakra.
> 
> Team 7 bonds



Doesn't look like it was naruto who stopped his curse seal from spreading. It was Sasuke's willpower who did most of the work, maybe with a little influence from all of team 7 caring for him. But mostly he knew that it was a bad idea to let the curse seal take control, and he didn't want to lose control. But when Sasuke lost control of the curse seal the first time, he wanted to hurt the sound genin for hurting Sakura, and it was Sakura's sole influence that stopped him. That time, he wanted to lose control, but Sakura convinced him not to do it.




> proof of this?



You're the one claiming she would die for Naruto in part 1, you need to prove that she would. I'm sure she'd risk her life to protect him if he was unable to defend herself. But would she jump in the way of an incoming kunai? Would she offer to follow him if he decided to leave the village?


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## Crackers (Mar 11, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> SasuSaku bond in part 1? I think you missed the part where: a) she broke him out of curse seal mode, b) she was willing to die for him c) he called her one of his precious people and told Naruto to save her



Yeah, so Sakura "broke him out of the curse seal mode".
Yeah, so Sakura jumped in front of Gaara one time.
Yeah, he called her one of her precious people.

What's your point? 

When, *where* has Sasuke ever told Sakura she was important to him to her face? 
When, where, *how* has Sasuke ever willingly almost sacrificed *his life* for hers and *hers alone*? 

Stop conviently disregarding the fact that Sasuke considered her *an* (*one*) important person - meaning that she is not the only one Sasuke cares about. In fact, I would say that, when you compare his reactions to Naruto from early on in the manga to VOTE, Sakura's bond with Sasuke fails miserably in comparison. Just because she's *an* important person doesn't mean she's *the most* important person.

Yeah, she went from an insensitive and annoying bitch to a friend Sasuke grew attached to, but she was not the only one with whom Sasuke changed his opinion about. She was not the only person who made an impression on Sasuke. Naruto did, too, and, dare I even say it, he left a much *bigger* impression and promised to make a life altering change in Sasuke than Sakura ever did. 




			
				Marina ISmail said:
			
		

> He didn't REJECT her. He said THANK YOU. Not a typical rejection line.


So, what, is telling a girl "thank you" and then knocking her out to sleep on a bench outside the "in" thing to do to her after she pours her heart and soul out for you now?

No matter how you look at it, anyway, Sasuke's "thank you" was *still* a rejection. Why? Because, despite Sakura's attempted genuine words, *he still left* and, other than a "thank you", Sasuke never said anything else that would imply he could or even did return her "feelings" for him.


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## Tenrol (Mar 11, 2009)

tyheru said:


> Doesn't look like it was naruto who stopped his curse seal from spreading. It was Sasuke's willpower who did most of the work, maybe with a little influence from all of team 7 caring for him. But mostly he knew that it was a bad idea to let the curse seal take control, and he didn't want to lose control. But when Sasuke lost control of the curse seal the first time, he wanted to hurt the sound genin for hurting Sakura, and it was Sakura's sole influence that stopped him. That time, he wanted to lose control, but Sakura convinced him not to do it.




No it's not only naruto it's because of Team 7. Exactly the first time was because of Sakura  maybe because she's precious to him since she's in team 7?





> You're the one claiming she would die for Naruto in part 1, you need to prove that she would. I'm sure she'd risk her life to protect him if he was unable to defend herself. But would she jump in the way of an incoming kunai? Would she offer to follow him if he decided to leave the village?



Since there's wasn't an situation i can't really proof nor you.. But then In the chuunin test Sakura was going to disqualified her team just for Naruto's sake without caring about what Sasuke thinks. So she must have some powerful feelings for him. I'm pretty sure she'll do the same


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## tyheru (Mar 12, 2009)

> Since there's wasn't an situation. But then In the chuunin test Sakura was going to disqualified her team just for Naruto's sake without caring about what Sasuke thinks. So she must have some powerful feelings for him. I'm pretty sure she'll do the same



Sakura cared for Naruto, yes, bu the chuunin exam thing doesn't hint at deep feelings. She was doubting about the exams anyway and they could always try again. But would she jump in front of a kunai for him? Would she offer to leave the village with him like she did with Sasuke?


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## Damaris (Mar 12, 2009)

KittenLou said:


> Yeah, so Sakura "broke him out of the curse seal mode".
> Yeah, so Sakura jumped in front of Gaara one time.
> Yeah, he called her one of her precious people.
> 
> ...



I never said Sakura was Sasuke's most important person. The Naruto-Sasuke bond IS the most important one in the manga. But that doesn't mean SasuSaku is impossible, or that he doesn't care about her. Just because one person influences you, doesn't mean you can't care for someone else.

Also, been willing to sacrifice his life for her and her alone? promised to make a life altering change in Sasuke
He doesn't hesitate, just throws himself in front of her. He doesn't even try to guard. If Kakashi hadn't saved them, that ninja would have crippled him, if not killed him. And in the Gaara scene, he IS willing to die for her, so Naruto can get her away from the fight.

And so Sasuke not taking Sakura away from everyone she loves and who loves her into the heart of an enemy camp, where he is going to try and forsake his humanity so he can kill his last living family member and actually thanks her for the love she's given him, is an argument of how he doesn't care?


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## Tenrol (Mar 12, 2009)

tyheru said:


> Sakura cared for Naruto, yes, bu the chuunin exam thing doesn't hint at deep feelings.She was doubting about the exams anyway and they could always try again.



Yes again..... next year.  btw, like i said without thinking about Sasuke means alot.




> But would she jump in front of a kunai for him? Would she offer to leave the village with him like she did with Sasuke?[/



Why..not? btw, Sakura wasn't going to leave the village with him since right after she said that she vowed to scream if Sasuke were going to leave.


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## Bellville (Mar 12, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Why..not? btw, Sakura wasn't going to leave the village with him since right after she said that she vowed to scream if Sasuke were going to leave.



If he'd have said "okay sure, you can come", she very well may have tried to follow him. However, he still refused and Sakura was trying to find any excuse she could so that he wouldn't leave her.

Sakura's behavior during this chapter was not at all admirable. It was desperate and pathetic and Naruto would never put her in such a situation. But let's talk with canon and not get too many 'what ifs' in here.


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## Euphemeral (Mar 12, 2009)

KittenLou said:


> No matter how you look at it, anyway, Sasuke's "thank you" was *still* a rejection. Why? Because, despite Sakura's attempted genuine words, *he still left* and, other than a "thank you", Sasuke never said anything else that would imply he could or even did return her "feelings" for him.


For me, that's very much just simplifying matters. Granted, that was nowhere close to accepting her feelings, but it couldn't be called a rejection either. I took it as a sign of delaying the real answer. As of now, Sasuke doesn't have in his heart any place for other people - I doubt be could care for someone in that manner.


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## Kage (Mar 12, 2009)

Euphemeral said:


> For me, that's very much just simplifying matters. Granted, *that was nowhere close to accepting her feelings*, but it couldn't be called a rejection either. I took it as a sign of delaying the real answer. As of now, Sasuke doesn't have in his heart any place for other people - I doubt be could care for someone in that manner.



you said it yourself. he didn't accept them. therefore he _rejected_ them.
apparently being appreciative of them however is a little more complicated then it should be.

sasuke wouldn't have a reason to delay the answer.  if he didn't have a place in his heart for other people then he wouldn't have precious people in the first place. the fact of the matter is he didn't have a place in his heart for sakura's "love" because it's never what he wanted from her in the first place.


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## Kathutet (Mar 12, 2009)

Okay, a question. When has Naruto shown any romantic interest in Hinata, when has Sasuke shown romantic interest in Sakura? And I mean, *romantic* interest, not 'bonds' or 'saving lives', 'one-way hugs' or any of that petty behavior.

Will appreciate an answer.


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## Euphemeral (Mar 12, 2009)

kageneko said:


> you said it yourself. he didn't accept them. therefore he _rejected_ them.
> apparently being appreciative of them however is a little more complicated then it should be.
> 
> sasuke wouldn't have a reason to delay the answer.  if he didn't have a place in his heart for other people then he wouldn't have precious people in the first place. the fact of the matter is he didn't have a place in his heart for sakura's "love" because it's never want he wanted from her in the first place.



Options to deal with feelings have never been restricted to only either rejecting or accepting. When we look into the situation, for Sasuke to accept was to return to the village and to reject would be to be cruel to a person that he obviously cares. And neither suited his current predicament. He said "thank you", but that means nothing on his feelings for Sakura, merely reflecting his priorities. It was revenge above all for him back then.


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## Kathutet (Mar 12, 2009)

Euphemeral said:


> Options to deal with feelings have never been restricted to only either rejecting or accepting. When we look into the situation, for Sasuke to accept was to return to the village and *to reject would be to be cruel to a person that he obviously cares.* And neither suited his current predicament. He said "thank you", but that means nothing on his feelings for Sakura, merely reflecting his priorities. It was revenge above all for him back then.


And repeatedly telling that person that she is annoying while she opened up her heart is not being cruel? Is it not rude? She opened her heart for him, and all he could say is; 'You're annoying' & 'Thanks... Sakura' before _knocking_ her _out._

So yeah. That's what I was thinking.


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## Euphemeral (Mar 12, 2009)

I am in love your set 



Kitsune Naruto said:


> And repeatedly telling that person that she is annoying while she opened up her heart is not being cruel? Is it not rude? She opened her heart for him, and all he could say is; 'You're annoying' & 'Thanks... Sakura' before _knocking_ her _out._
> 
> So yeah. That's what I was thinking.



Yea. I didn't like SasuSaku for that reason. He's not nice to her and she was mindlessly tailing him like a puppy. However, that night, when she was told "you're annoying", it wasn't something that he was saying because he hated her. At the start of the story, she annoys him, and yes, I would agree that he probably remembers her as an annoying girl with a level of usefulness because she's booksmart. However, he grew and by the time he was ready to leave the village, it was because of his growing jealousy for Naruto. The SasuNaru bond is not included in this argument, but there had been many instances that his interactions with Naruto reflected his love for the team and willingness to cooperate. You never hear him calling her annoying until that moment - and while they were bonding, Sakura's fangirling moments of him got more infrequent. You can say that Sasuke knew it was a desperate moment that drove Sakura to confess - or you can say he's just cruel to her. 

However, that was no indication for canon feelings stated because neither were in the situation to think properly. One used it as a desperate measure, one didn't answer. 

Knocking her out was the perfect solution to just silence her, don't you think? Elimination of existence - the perfect method for silencing.


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## Kathutet (Mar 12, 2009)

Euphemeral said:


> I am in love your set
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am in love with it myself~  Damn it. XD

You know, Sasuke knocking out Sakura reminds me of a famous scene in Dragonball Z; Vegeta knocking out his son, Trunks, to fight Majin Buu and eventually sacrifices himself to rid the world of 'Majin Buu'. 

I don't think Sasuke did it on purpose, he did not expect her to know he was leaving. I guess all it was, was merely a fortunate accident that caused Sakura to know of his plans; followed by her desperate plea which has probably resulted in Sasuke acknowledging those feelings, but not truly returning them. Sasuke loves his team, not one girl or one boy. He has flashbacks of Naruto and Sakura; indicating that they have emotional value to him, this, however is not truly romantic. 

Damn, I'm out of time... I guess we shall meet again! 
Catch ya later~


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## Kage (Mar 12, 2009)

Euphemeral said:


> Options to deal with feelings have never been restricted to only either rejecting or accepting. When we look into the situation, for Sasuke to accept was to return to the village and to reject would be to be cruel to a person that he obviously cares. And neither suited his current predicament. He said "thank you", but that means nothing on his feelings for Sakura, merely reflecting his priorities. It was revenge above all for him back then.



since when has accepting her feelings means he has to stay? he acknowledged naruto as his best friend and equal. _that_ was _acceptance_ while still reflecting his obvious priorities since it wasn't enough to hinder him.  

and while i'm sure throwing in 'your still annoying' for good measure isn't vicious, it isn't exactly being very delicate with someone who just confessed their true love to you.

sasuke has never needlessly been overly cruel or kind to sakura regardless of the predicament. she would say something and he would act accordingly. (if at all)


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## Euphemeral (Mar 12, 2009)

Of course we will meet again. You think I'll lose that sight of that dishy SasuNaru there? 



Kitsune Naruto said:


> I don't think Sasuke did it on purpose, he did not expect her to know he was leaving. I guess all it was, was merely a fortunate accident that caused Sakura to know of his plans; followed by her desperate plea which has probably resulted in Sasuke acknowledging those feelings, but not truly returning them. Sasuke loves his team, not one girl or one boy. He has flashbacks of Naruto and Sakura; indicating that they have emotional value to him, this, however is not truly romantic.



Word. At that time, Itachi and his own revenge was what's on Sasuke's mind. He probably didn't even think about Sakura too much to dwell too much on how he could possibly feel for her. Thus, it would be rather like a deliberate impartiality of any pairing side to use it as an evident for SasuSaku. If anything, that shows that Sakura cares for him and had thought of him that way.

@kageneko - Boys in Naruto, especially Team 7 are retarded emoters, totally hopeless in romance. He wouldn't know how to be delicate to anyone, let alone Sakura. Naruto was different because their relationship was built with the harshness of boy and boy rivalry. 

All in all, what I'm trying to say was that Sasuke, at that moment, was not being a jerk to Sakura; and it was my opinion that the confession or the events preceding that is not a viable evident for SasuSaku.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 12, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Okay, a question. When has Naruto shown any romantic interest in Hinata, when has Sasuke shown romantic interest in Sakura? And I mean, *romantic* interest, not 'bonds' or 'saving lives', 'one-way hugs' or any of that petty behavior.
> 
> Will appreciate an answer.



Neither one has, not to the girls or each other.  It's something we'll have to wait on at the moment.  All we can do is speculate.


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## Kage (Mar 12, 2009)

Euphemeral said:


> @kageneko - Boys in Naruto, especially Team 7 are retarded emoters, totally hopeless in romance. He wouldn't know how to be delicate to anyone, let alone Sakura. Naruto was different because their relationship was built with the harshness of boy and boy rivalry.


maybe so but i wouldn't rule out his capability to do such just because sakura's not a boy and he didn't show it when it would have been convenient in light of her confession. he did pay her that one compliment in the chuunin exams to boost her moral and he did express sincere gratitude for her concern and while that wasn't done out of romantic motives he isn't completely incapable of being delicate (or just plain considerate is a better way to put it) when he wants to be.

plus sasuke and naruto are far from retarded emoters. quite the opposite in fact. it's just the feelings they invest most of their more powerful emotions on have nothing to do with romance.




> All in all, what I'm trying to say was that Sasuke, at that moment, was not being a jerk to Sakura; and it was my opinion that the confession or the events preceding that is not a viable evident for SasuSaku.


i agree problem is i don't see his not being a jerk to her then as leeway to something that needed to be said or something that was delayed. 

i just don't like the excuse 'he was thinking of his revenge before love' because he had no problems being honest with the other members of his team (plus his lack of interest in romance in general) and yet with sakura he gives her _a not quite rejection just cause he had things to do_ as an answer to her feelings? doesn't make much sense to me. especially considering IMO his bond with her was the weakest of the ones he had for his team. sakura herself admitted that they never really talked and he didn't open up to her much.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 12, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> I never said Sakura was Sasuke's most important person. The Naruto-Sasuke bond IS the most important one in the manga. But that doesn't mean SasuSaku is impossible, or that he doesn't care about her. Just because one person influences you, doesn't mean you can't care for someone else.
> 
> Also, been willing to sacrifice his life for her and her alone? Zukia Tojiro
> He doesn't hesitate, just throws himself in front of her. He doesn't even try to guard. If Kakashi hadn't saved them, that ninja would have crippled him, if not killed him. And in the Gaara scene, he IS willing to die for her, so Naruto can get her away from the fight.



Wow, Sasuke does his mission work well and he's Sakura's savior ? You do realize she was standing in front of the mission's target [therefore 2 people were there] and that he saves Naruto right before who was alone? He was absolutely CONFIDENT of being able to defend them! When Kakashi appears, he thinks [from copyrighted translation] "I could have handled it myself". This is what you can call blatant grasping at straws and taking scenes out of context. *There is no sense of ultimate sacrifice in that entire sequence*  Try comparing it to the time Sasuke nearly wet his pants against Orochimaru cos he felt the range of difference!
If you feel like taking it further then the way he saves Naruto in that scene is far more significant as he actually bothers to ask Naruto if he's ok.

A scene Sasuke will even flashback at his supposed point of death during the Haku fight. Once again Sasuke proves WHO HE CONSIDERS MOST ATTENTION-WORTHY [even Sakura flashbacks that when she acknowledges Naruto's worth during the Chuunin exams (Naruto vs. Kiba)]. Yeah. Sasuke cares about Sakura, but he has no significant emotional preference for her. SasuSaku refuses to accept this just because they managed having a comrade/friendship - that in essence does nothing more than prove Sasuke isn't an emotionless bastard towards someone who, when she wasn't kissing his ass 24-7, proved to be sincerely supportive. Wow. This can't remain friendship even if it never has been suggested or treated as more!

I don't see anything promising in something Sasuke was able to leave with a Thank you - but no thank you. Revenge matters more than staying with you guys.
VS
Naruto our bond is important therefore it's worth killing you. Revenge matters more.

But I can't...


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## ButterflyGod (Mar 12, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Okay, a question. When has Naruto shown any romantic interest in Hinata, when has Sasuke shown romantic interest in Sakura? And I mean, *romantic* interest, not 'bonds' or 'saving lives', 'one-way hugs' or any of that petty behavior.
> 
> Will appreciate an answer.



*steps into dog fighting pit* I don't normally post here because this place is like a snake eating its tail in perpetuity but I'll answer this remarkably forthright question.

Naruto has shown no romantic interest in Hinata. 

Sasuke has shown no romantic interest in Sakura.

*leaves*


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## Damaris (Mar 12, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Wow, Sasuke does his mission work well and he's Sakura's savior ? You do realize she was standing in front of the mission's target [therefore 2 people were there] and that he saves Naruto right before who was alone? He was absolutely CONFIDENT of being able to defend them! When Kakashi appears, he thinks [from copyrighted translation] "I could have handled it myself". This is what you can call blatant grasping at straws and taking scenes out of context. *There is no sense of ultimate sacrifice in that entire sequence*  Try comparing it to the time Sasuke nearly wet his pants against Orochimaru cos he felt the range of difference!
> If you feel like taking it further then the way he saves Naruto in that scene is far more significant as he actually bothers to ask Naruto if he's ok.
> 
> A scene Sasuke will even flashback at his supposed point of death during the Haku fight. Once again Sasuke proves WHO HE CONSIDERS MOST ATTENTION-WORTHY [even Sakura flashbacks that when she acknowledges Naruto's worth during the Chuunin exams (Naruto vs. Kiba)]. Yeah. Sasuke cares about Sakura, but he has no significant emotional preference for her. SasuSaku refuses to accept this just because they managed having a comrade/friendship - that in essence does nothing more than prove Sasuke isn't an emotionless bastard towards someone who, when she wasn't kissing his ass 24-7, proved to be sincerely supportive. Wow. This can't remain friendship even if it never has been suggested or treated as more!
> ...



They just asked for an example, so I gave one. I'm sorry for offending your delicate SasuNaru feelings.

I have said before. Sasuke-Naruto IS THE MOST IMPORTANT BOND IN THE MANGA. But that does not automatically mean every other person is just a "comerade/friendship" like you seem to believe. 

If you honestly believe that he has no emotional preference for her at all, that he views Sakura the same as say, Shikamaru, then I'm just going to have to disagree and say that isn't true. 

She is Sasuke's most important person after Naruto. Did he love her when they were part of Team 7, or now? No. But does he have the capacity to love her? Yes, I believe he does.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 12, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> They just asked for an example, so I gave one. I'm sorry for offending your delicate SasuNaru feelings.
> 
> I have said before. Sasuke-Naruto IS THE MOST IMPORTANT BOND IN THE MANGA. But that does not automatically mean every other person is just a "comerade/friendship" like you seem to believe.
> 
> ...



No no, it's not about my delicate SasuNaru feelings  it's about using piffle as evidence for a pairing. Having the capability of loving her is a lot lower than that of Sakura loving Naruto, if anything. Once again I'm going to ask, what should have Sasuke NOT done to make her seem as a potential love interest? He shunned her romantic attention so many times it's embarassing. A lot of over-analyzing can get you somewhere, but essentially it's weak until significant development is made. And so far I haven't seen anything that isn't more valid for another pairing or not blown out of proportion. Sasuke isn't heartless - being indifferent to Sakura's feelings - when someone like his bestfriend is not - wouldn't make any sense. And that isn't the only example I could counter in a similar way.


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## Damaris (Mar 12, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> No no, it's not about my delicate SasuNaru feelings  it's about using piffle as evidence for a pairing. Having the capability of loving her is a lot lower than that of Sakura loving Naruto, if anything. Once again I'm going to ask, what should have Sasuke NOT done to make her seem as a potential love interest? He shunned her romantic attention so many times it's embarassing. A lot of over-analyzing can get you somewhere, but essentially it's weak until significant development is made. And so far I haven't seen anything that isn't more valid for another pairing or not blown out of proportion. Sasuke isn't heartless - being indifferent to Sakura's feelings - when someone like his bestfriend is not - wouldn't make any sense. And that isn't the only example I could counter in a similar way.



And Sasuke called Naruto a failure so many times it's embarassing. If you go by the negative things he said, it's easy to make an argument instead of focusing on what he did do that was positive. 

I don't know what more significant development you want from SasuSaku. 
Sakura went from being an annoying girl, to being a friend, to being one of his precious people. If he couldn't return her feelings when he left, he at least understood them. The whole point was that nothing was going to keep him from his revenge, not even Sakura or Naruto. 

As for Sakura, for all of part 1 we saw her feelings for Sasuke grow from "oh he's cute and I like him" to genuine love. In part 2, she isn't harping on it all the time because we already know she loves him. But she still thinks of him when she's alone, and most of her conversations revolve around him.

What examples have you seen that are more valid for another pairing? Sakura confessing love for him? Breaking him out of curse seal mode? Sasuke being willing to die to hold Gaara off so Naruto could get her away?

I understand both of us are biased in this argument, but I would think that it should be obvious that Sakura holds deep and sincere romantic feelings for him, and that for Sasuke, Sakura is one of his most important people, someone he will protect. Whether his care for her becomes romantic is yet to be seen, but they are still head and shoulders above some other pairings.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 12, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> And Sasuke called Naruto a failure so many times it's embarassing. If you go by the negative things he said, it's easy to make an argument instead of focusing on what he did do that was positive.



Once again you're taking things out of context. I can give you one line of Naruto that can obliterate that in a heartbeat.

"Sasuke was the one who recognized my worth the most".

You can't make claims when evidence contradicts you. Naruto and Sasuke's bickering was A LOT of hot air, a relationship of on-going denial that erupted with its intensity. He called Naruto a dead-last in the beginning, but gave him constant attention whether he sounded nice or not.

Also Naruto appreciates this aspect of their relationship anyway, cos he "earned" Sasuke's acknowledgment.

I don't see anything in the story hyping the SasuSaku relationship. She has feelings towards him and they had a comrade/friendship - but nothing exceptional imo. What do they even have in common except being on the same team?



> I don't know what more significant development you want from SasuSaku.
> Sakura went from being an annoying girl, to being a friend, to being one of his precious people. If he couldn't return her feelings when he left, he at least understood them. The whole point was that nothing was going to keep him from his revenge, not even Sakura or Naruto.



Influence is important aspect in establishing or arguing pairings. And I find Sakura's influence on Sasuke leaves much to desire.



> As for Sakura, for all of part 1 we saw her feelings for Sasuke grow from "oh he's cute and I like him" to genuine love. In part 2, she isn't harping on it all the time because we already know she loves him. But she still thinks of him when she's alone, and most of her conversations revolve around him.



You'll need A LOT more than just assumptions to convince me on that matter. Being protective is a common occurrence which I would be happy if it equalled true love in a certain case, and begging centered on her own suffering to stop him from leaving fails to impress me as mature feelings of love. It proves little when talking about romantic viability, and I'm someone who thinks she still has romantic interest in Sasuke, though not in the same extent. Sakura has just as much sacrificial backbone when it comes to protecting Naruto now - so the logic fails to prove anything for true love or romantic relationship material. Hinata's gestures prove a lot more I think...



> What examples have you seen that are more valid for another pairing? Sakura confessing love for him? Breaking him out of curse seal mode? Sasuke being willing to die to hold Gaara off so Naruto could get her away?



Sasuke denied his life existance by admitting something to someone else [not going into it though] and in Part 2 Sakura has ambiguous feelings. Also Naruto can break Sasuke from his curse mode [let's keep ignoring Naruto]. Sasuke, in canon, is more willingly to die for Naruto, and is compared to Sakura protecting Sasuke after he says "I know you can save Sakura" [but let's ignore Naruto once again].

Gaara Vs. Naruto is very overrated when it comes to NaruSaku and SasuSaku. Not only does the Naruto/Sasuke interaction go ignored, it was extremely representative of friendship in a strict way. Sakura reminded Gaara of Gai and eventually Yashamaru, and the entire essence of the battle is about love in a very formal sense

Sasuke observed Naruto very carefully the entire time even before stepping up and making that statement. We see Naruto as very helpless against Gaara, but then he becomes very determined to protect those he cares about - thinking about how they filled his existance - from Iruka to Kakashi.




Using every single little thing that Sakura did to affect Sasuke, ignoring the context while being oblivious to the fact that _even Naruto_ can do the same thing, just doesn't do it for me. If I were to argue SasuSaku, I'd be debating about how Sakura boasts some of his ego and has a good tolerance of his bullshit [let alone the fact those aspects of their relationship have highly negative connotations], but not that she holds a special influence over him out of his appreciation.

Coming down to it Sasuke doesn't acknowledge Sakura in a significant way that isn't understandable imo. For romance they would need significant development, really. 



> I understand both of us are biased in this argument, but I would think that it should be obvious that Sakura holds deep and sincere romantic feelings for him, and that for Sasuke, Sakura is one of his most important people, someone he will protect. Whether his care for her becomes romantic is yet to be seen, but they are still head and shoulders above some other pairings.



Yes. But I argue just on a romantic level. When Sakura says that if Sasuke left she'd feel so alone without him (romantic implications towards him here), who does Sasuke remember?

BOTH SAKURA AND NARUTO. I don't see SasuSaku as superficial for what its worth. But I fail to see any romantic potential when Sasuke failed to demonstrate exceptional attraction. It's heavily one-sided.


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## Damaris (Mar 12, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Once again you're taking things out of context. I can give you one line of Naruto that can obliterate that in a heartbeat.
> 
> "Sasuke was the one who recognized my worth the most".
> 
> ...



The problem is this is the NaruSaku/SasuSaku/NaruHina debate thread. So although the NaruSasu bond does have a lot of impact in the story, it isn't what I'm trying to focus on. 

As for Naruto being able to do anything Sakura can do for Sasuke? Sakura and Naruto both offer Sasuke something different. And while what Naruto gives Sasuke (his friendship and acceptance), what Sakura gives him is just as important. She gives him unconditional love, and around her, he is a gentler person.

She's the first person he talks to about Itachi, and he even admits he was crying. For Sasuke, who is very prideful, this is important. When they fight Orochimaru for the first time in the Forest of Death, it isn't Naruto who gets him to break out of his paralysis, but Sakura, when she calls him a coward.

Again, he doesn't love her. But he does care about her, and she is nearly as important as Naruto for him, not matter what you say.


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## Milkshake (Mar 12, 2009)

^I may not be in this debate but I disagree on the fact that Izzy can't use the NaruSasu bond in this arguement. She could very well use it to compare/contrast towards SasuSaku, she isn't focusing on how NaruSasu's bond has the best 'canon' evidence. There is no other relation she could possibly compare it to, as in Sasuke relations. 

One question before I go; If Sakura is as important as Naruto to her, why in Part II did he not attempt to talk to her once after "Sakura, huh?" Why would he go out for killing her without even attempting to talk to her once before she died? (don't deny that he wasn't going to kill Sakura, Yamato wouldn't have sensed it and blocked Sakura in time if not) How come he has hardly no references of her outside of a Team 7 flashback? Wouldn't he think about her when he thinks about Naruto? Just curious


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 12, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> The problem is this is the NaruSaku/SasuSaku/NaruHina debate thread. So although the NaruSasu bond does have a lot of impact in the story, it isn't what I'm trying to focus on.
> 
> As for Naruto being able to do anything Sakura can do for Sasuke? Sakura and Naruto both offer Sasuke something different. And while what Naruto gives Sasuke (his friendship and acceptance), what Sakura gives him is just as important. She gives him unconditional love, and around her, he is a gentler person.
> 
> ...



Nah, I'm not debating NaruSasu just cos I am mentioning their relationship. What I'm trying to say is that SasuSaku doesn't hold much as a mutual relationship to be considerable in a romantic sense.

I already said Sakura boosts Sasuke's ego, so he can admit whatever he wants to her, unlike with Naruto. But the mutuality of the latter relationship is so intense the beans spill anyway - and that's the difference.

Now, on to more things taken out of context. I am an expert in countering SasuSaku arguements, so the Orochimaru paralysis thing fails to surprise me at all. It's the worst SasuSaku argument ever  

It was *Naruto* that stopped Sasuke from the fear Orochimaru gave him, big time. Sakura played her part, but it is being extremely overrated. Here's the missing context:

*Spoiler*: __ 









Now wasn't Naruto's effect EXTREMELY romantic ?

_"At least Naruto isn't a coward!"_ (or something around that sort)
-Sakura

Without NARUTO in Sakura's sentence, you think there would have been the same effect? It was NARUTO who punched Sasuke in the face saying that a "coward" wasn't the Sasuke he knew.

Why is MY interpretation valid? Cos Orochimaru confirms it himself!
Crocodile Vs. Gaara Vs. Sandman


And that is why it's the worst SasuSaku assumption ever. You want to compare Naruto stopping a gigantic snake to Sakura saying "NARUTO isn't a coward?"  just shows how important the orange thing is.

And it's not a question of what I say  it's a question of what the manga shows. It's been hammered, repeated, and insisted on, that Naruto has the potential of saving Sasuke and is the one who is most capable of turning his heart from the darkness. It's not the same thing whether that relationship competes romantically or not. I don't think SasuSaku can compete on any level except on mere whim of shounen possibility, and that's why I'm debating against it. I don't think it would _happen_ whether Naruto was there or not.


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## SasuraHime (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow. This is heated.

And to note, in this post, I'm really not including Hinata at all.

What I want to know is how this discussion can happen with a ban on SasuNaru/Narusasu talk? (Which I see you guys have definitely marched back and forth across that line.) Because if you're going to debate whether or not relationships with Naruto or Sasuke or Sakura are canon or not, you can't just look at each relationship individually. To a degree you can, but human relationships are more complicated than that, particularly when teenage hormones are raging.

In Naruto, its clear that many of the relationships between characters are difficult to define or in development. That's why many of the characters go back and forth between what they say because they are trying to figure out what they feel for each other. (i.e. Naruto<->Sasuke love/hate and Sakura->Naruto hate/love) and often times when we are confused about our feelings, we compare them to our feelings towards others do we not?

For instance, Naruto might say. I love Sakura, but is it like a friend or is it more? Do I love her the same way I feel for Sasuke? And how do I feel about him anyway, is it like a friend, or a brother or rival or lover?

This is ESPECIALLY difficult for Naruto because he has no family. He doesn't know what love between parents and children is like or love between siblings. So defining his relationships with his teammates is extra tricky because they are like the closest things to siblings or even family he as had (not counting Iruka)

That being said, I don't think anyone can deny a bond between all the members of team 7 at least at certain points in time.

Does Sasuke care for Sakura? Definite, at least he did. What about Naruto. Again he definitely did at one point. And Naruto caring for Sasuke and Sakura? Of course! Sakura cares for both of them too, though her relationship with Naruto was longing in developing. Her feelings for Sasuke were always clearly ones of love. Naruto's feelings for his teammates are harder to define because I don't think he completely understands them himself.

And as for Sasuke's feelings for his teammates, he claims to have servered any bonds he had with them so any romantic developement between Sasuke and anyone at that point in time completely froze (or even regressed). I think there's a possibility that he is lying to himself about no longer caring for them, but either way, he's not getting together with anyone anytime soon (and there's little to no canon basis for Sasuke and anyone not in team 7).

Is there potential for these pairings? Mangas and animes are excruciatingly slow at getting people together. Yes all of team 7 cares(or cared) for one another but if anything would ever actually happen between any of them, I guarantee that it won't happen for a long, long, time. So keep wishing people!


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## NaruSaku12345 (Mar 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Oh, they made a third thread? ... Ha! I thought, NaruHina had the biddest fanbase! Hinata confessed her feelings, and you're already argueing over NaruSaku and SasuSaku? 



Ok, now let me start my rant against SasuSaku. 

First of all, to start it off, Sasuke has know feelings for Sakura whatsoever. As a matter of fact, he's heading right over to kill her and all her friends!  Now we know it's impossible, but the main arguement seems to be over _Sakuras_ feelings for the guy who tryed to stab her in the chest a couple of monthes ago. Why would she love him? In the reunion/Sai and Yamato arc, Sakura seemed much more interested in Naruto then rescueing Sasuke. Now, that I look at it, Kabuto said that Sasuke and co. were leaving very soon. So team konoha would have to get there in less then one day. But when Naruto collapsed (299, too lasy to get it), Sakura was willing to stop and rest, knowong Sasuke would be gone. So, she didn't give a shit that she would not get her, as SasuSaku fans call it, "_Precious Sasuke-Kun_". Meaning, Narutos well being, in her mind came before Sasuke.

Now, back in Part 1 and the PoaL, Sakura would have left Naruto on the floor and ran at light speed to Orochimaru's hideout. It is well known that Sakura's feelings for him (if she has any) have greatly lessened. Now onto NaruSaku.

Naruto loves her that is a given. But it has to be two way, such as all NaruHina fans beleive Naruto will run of to Hinata now that he knows the truth. If she lives, why would he, he has no romantic feelings towards her. If someone went up to you and said they love you, yet you love another girl, are you  gonna fly off to that one? Heck no! Now many think I am bashing myself, but Sakura's feelings have been implied, via flirtations, and 297, witch was cut off for pointless tension, but I beleive it is oblivious what Yamato was going to say. Back in v29, the Jinchuriki scene? Sakura crying more then when Sasuke left to Orochimaru? v38, feeding scene? 429, Sakura thinking Naruto has fucking hikage level power before she even knew about Sage Mode?


'Nuff Said. 

-ej2


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



^Even if NaruHina had a confession it doesn't have a ounce of development to do anything except make future assumptions.


 And last time I checked talking about Naruto and Sasuke's relationship didn't mean debating its romance. You can't talk about Sasuke's feelings without mentioning Naruto, sorry


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 13, 2009)

^ Infact i coulda sworn Sakura had a little something called a confession 2 years ago, and that pairing is hardly anything something to be called canon, especially the state it was left in at that time.

Not to say Hinata's feelings were such that it was a good thing that they feel apart like Sakura's were..but its abit early to say that all other possibilities are invalidated electoral.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 13, 2009)

> *Originally posted by electoraljew2*
> First of all, to start it off, Sasuke has know feelings for Sakura whatsoever.



Sasuke does have feelings for Sakura. During Naruto's fight with Gaara, he tells Naruto that he had "better rescue her [Sakura] no matter what." I am not trying to say that he has romantic feelings for her there, and indeed i don't believe that he does, but he does feel something. Otherwise, he wouldn't have cared if she died.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> As a matter of fact, he's heading right over to kill her and all her friends!



We don't know that he is. He commented that he wanted to destroy all of Konoha, but the person that he commented this to was Madara. Who do you think he has more reason to lie to: his team, who don't care about Konoha either way, or the guy who has admitted to having a personal vendetta against Konoha? Killing the citizens of Konoha would also contradict the mercy that was established when Sasuke refused to kill the fodder Oto-nin that Orochimaru had arranged for his training, instead going out of his way to defeat each of them without striking a lethal blow.



> Now we know it's impossible, but the main arguement seems to be over _Sakuras_ feelings for the guy who tryed to stab her in the chest a couple of monthes ago. Why would she love him?



Sakura said that she loved him in chapter 181. This is a story. It is a work of fiction. That being said, I don't think that she's going to fall out of love with him after that dramatic confession without some sort of onscreen explanation. If this was real life, I would say that it was very possible for her feelings to have disappeared in those three years. However, Kishimoto is not going to completely remove her feelings, feelings that she was prepared to leave the village because of, without putting some major explanation in the manga.



> In the reunion/Sai and Yamato arc, Sakura seemed much more interested in Naruto then rescueing Sasuke. Now, that I look at it, Kabuto said that Sasuke and co. were leaving very soon. So team konoha would have to get there in less then one day. But when Naruto collapsed (299, too lasy to get it), Sakura was willing to stop and rest, knowong Sasuke would be gone. So, she didn't give a shit that she would not get her, as SasuSaku fans call it, "_Precious Sasuke-Kun_". Meaning, Narutos well being, in her mind came before Sasuke.



Naruto was RIGHT THERE. Naruto was hurt IN FRONT OF HER. Orochimaru was known to be in the area. Of course she wanted to make sure that Naruto was safe. He's her friend. It would have been pretty cruel of her to say, "Okay, let's leave Naruto here, where anyone can get him, mere days after I've learned that he has an organization of deadly criminals after him, with a guy who would just love to kill him [Orochimaru] hanging around here somewhere. And, let's go save Sasuke!" That makes it sound like she hasn't matured at all since the beginning of the series, which is definitely not the case.



> Now, back in Part 1 and the PoaL, Sakura would have left Naruto on the floor and ran at light speed to Orochimaru's hideout. *It is well known that Sakura's feelings for him (if she has any) have greatly lessened.* Now onto NaruSaku.



We know that Sakura _did_ have feelings for Sasuke. Chapter 181 proved this. Either she meant that she loved him, or she was exaggerating to the point of cruelty on how much he meant to her, because you don't say that "I have family and friends, but if you leave, to me... it will be the same thing as being alone" and not mean it.

Now, what proof do you have that her feelings have lessened? When have she and Sasuke interacted in part 2, aside from the reunion scene where getting back Sasuke was far more important than declaring her love to him. If she had felt the need to restate her feelings as the first thing she said to him in two and a half years, then she would have severely dropped in my estimation of her character. That sounds not only incredibly fangirlish, but also self-centered, and like she has no greater understanding of Sasuke than she did back in the beginning of the series when she was one of his fangirls.



> But it has to be two way, such as all NaruHina fans beleive Naruto will run of to Hinata now that he knows the truth. If she lives, why would he, he has no romantic feelings towards her. If someone went up to you and said they love you, yet you love another girl, are you  gonna fly off to that one? Heck no!



Please, do not say 'all' unless you actually mean everyone. I myself am a NaruHina fan, yet I absolutely do NOT see him suddenly running to her now. I think that that would be stupid and outright bad writing. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



What I think is that Naruto will now be forced to examine Hinata's character. He's just had a major revelation about her feelings for him. I think he'll be confused enough that, after the fight with Pain/Nagato, he will begin to seriously analyze all of Hinata's conversations with him, to look for the indications that he missed of her feelings. And it is this examining of Hinata that I think will eventually lead to him developing feelings for her. While he may not like her as a potential lover at this moment, he does like her as a friend, and he even commented that he "likes people like her." He didn't say that he liked her, but he did show that it wouldn't be impossible for him to grow to like her.






> Back in v29, the Jinchuriki scene? Sakura crying more then when Sasuke left to Orochimaru?



Can you please give a chapter number for this? I'm afraid that I don't have that volume of the manga in my possession, and I'd need to look it up by chapter number to find it.



> v38, feeding scene?



Both of Naruto's arms were broken and they were using chopsticks. He wouldn't have been able to eat his ramen like that, and Naruto loves ramen. Sakura was being a good friend by feeding him. Seriously, if it was my best friend there, I would have done the same thing.

As for Naruto commenting to Sai to read the atmosphere... who do you think he would rather be fed by: his pretty female teammate, or that guy who keeps asking if he has a penis?



> 429, Sakura thinking Naruto has fucking hikage level power before she even knew about Sage Mode?



Why does that have to be romantic? If I was in Konoha at that time, I would be doing the same thing. (And I definitely to not have a crush on Naruto.) Sakura saw what his Fuuton: Rasenshuriken did to Kakuzu. That jutsu kicked butt on so many levels, and Naruto produced it himself. Now, he goes off to go training again. We, the readers, hadn't really seen him be able to do much with his Sage Training, and yet I know that I and all my friends that read Naruto were fairly certain that he would be powerful when he came back. We didn't know that it would be to quite so great a degree, but we knew that he would be able to do something. Why would Sakura not share that same faith, especially because she's been there as Naruto has proved time and time again what he can do when he puts his mind to it?


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## JERITROLL (Mar 14, 2009)

Alright, first post on the reset thread! That was a nice break, lol.

Okay, let's see about breaking this stuff up.... *looks at sig* Okay, now you know my bias, so here we go:

On the subject of the Naruto vs. Gaara arc:
Okay no.... Just no...  It's being taken out of context for SasuSaku. Sasuke gets pissed off because Naruto is better than him. He admits this here, and it's something that vexes him to no end. All throughout Part 1, Naruto and Sasuke are at each others throats about who is better. Sasuke is arrogant, we all know this, and for him to say that is humbling, and has nothing to do with Sakura. It was the thing Naruto had been longing to hear, that he was better, and Sasuke was NOT happy about giving it to him. 

On the Subject of Part II Sakura:

Look, I know that she isn't the main character, but come on, if she really cared, then Kishi would show her thinking about Sasuke and not Team 7. It's not rocket science, he used this for Naruto all the time, and had her do this throughout Part 1, why would he suddenly drop it? More importantly, look back to after the fiasco. Yes, I'm going to bring in the tried and true Sai scene aftermath. Sakura doesn't exactly praise Sasuke, now does she? Heck, she barely even acknowledges him in this scene, while Naruto is fanboying his best friend (and I'll get to this in a little bit, hold on). Sakura has seemed to have moved on, and thus it cannot be assumed that she's still in love with Sasuke. Granted, she hasn't gotten her big development arc yet, but even if she does, a scene like this should have happened chapters ago, to make it clear to the reader that she hasn't lost the feelings (and I mean in a peacefullish time, Naruto hasn't shown a lot in 100 chapters, but we've been going non-stop, so you can't say I'm being a hypocrite, 'cause I'm playing with clear rules).

On Confessions:

I'm sure we can all agree on it, confession of 1 party =/= cannon, lol. If that were the case, then SS or NS would have already happened XP.

On Using SasuNaru/NaruSasu

Okay, to make it clear, as a pairing I loathe it to the point of destruction because it tries to take a bond to a level I just don't see it at (and the fact that I just don't agree with it, but that's for a different time and different place), HOWEVER, you can't drop it. The reason that so many of us use it when combating SasuSaku (and why some people use it to combat NaruSaku as well) is because it shows a good bar for what they each see their friends as. It's especially useful for Sasuke (as Naruto's the main character, we get into his head a bit more, so we don't need to rely on other characters as much to talk about him), because it shows how he respected and treated Naruto. Sasuke doesn't give Sakura the time of day, he only sees Naruto as one who can challenge him, because his mind is only on revenge. It shows that he could care less about her. Also, it shows how much stronger it was than anything Sakura ever had with Sasuke. Thus, we use their bond as a counter, after all, for a romantic bond to work for either Naruto or Sasuke, it has to be more intimate than their brotherly bond, after all, they suddenly would have a supporter in Sakura or whoever it ends up being. The main point of this ramble, is that the bond that they'd have must be even closer their current bond, and with Sasuke and Sakura, I just don't see that happening .... Ever, lol. 

But again, we're all biased debaters, and not the God of the manga known as Masashi Kishimoto, so what do we know? XD


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## Kathutet (Mar 14, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Sasuke does have feelings for Sakura. During Naruto's fight with Gaara, he tells Naruto that he had "better rescue her [Sakura] no matter what." I am not trying to say that he has romantic feelings for her there, and indeed i don't believe that he does, but he does feel something. Otherwise,* he wouldn't have cared if she died.*
> -snip tl;dr-



It's called friendship & team spirit. Those are not the feelings that you think.

*Bold part:* of course. It's only logical. Sasuke does not want to see any team mate die, same goes for Naruto and Sakura. It's bonds, not love, not 'destined' love, not even anything hinting towards him becoming Sakura's husband in the future. Guise, Sasuke is evil right now and has more to attend to than to become Sakura's husband, okay? It will not happen unless... Kishi decides that Sasuke can have a 180? turn (character-wise).

I think this is very unlikely. That's all I have to say, logic fills in the rest of the story.


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## SasuraHime (Mar 14, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> It's called friendship & team spirit. Those are not the feelings that you think.
> 
> *Bold part:* of course. It's only logical. Sasuke does not want to see any team mate die, same goes for Naruto and Sakura. It's bonds, not love, not 'destined' love, not even anything hinting towards him becoming Sakura's husband in the future. Guise, Sasuke is evil right now and has more to attend to than to become Sakura's husband, okay? It will not happen unless... Kishi decides that Sasuke can have a 180? turn (character-wise).
> 
> I think this is very unlikely. That's all I have to say, logic fills in the rest of the story.



I don't think anyone is arguing that because Sasuke doesn't want Sakura to die, that means he's in love with her. But it shows that he cares more about his teammates than anyone else. I'm sure these binds are mostly made up of friendship and team spirit, but I think the only point trying to be made by that is that Sasuke cares for Naruto and Sakura more than anyone else and so there's room for romance to grow from that. At least that's how I took it.

And as far as Sasuke's character taking a 180? turn, well he's already done that hasn't he, so I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again. I know there was a little build up of Sasuke's anger that Naruto was becoming more powerful than him, but he was still in his usual character, just angry, until he made the decision to leave, then he seemed to turn evil almost instantly after that. I think it's likely that this means he's either surpressing/ignoring his bonds with his teammates, or it's a device used to make his turning evil easier which can easily be used again in reverse. In other words, he went from good to evil in a ridiculously short period of time, so I think it'd be pretty easy to turn him back in a relatively short time (a few episodes/chapters).


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## moonjump05 (Mar 14, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ^Even if NaruHina had a confession it doesn't have a ounce of development to do anything except make future assumptions. And last time I checked talking about Naruto and Sasuke's relationship didn't mean debating its romance. You can't talk about Sasuke's feelings without mentioning Naruto, sorry




Uh sorry, Naruhina does have development.  Sure, it's not romantic on Naruto's end but he does go from barely noticing her to considering her someone he likes as a person.
And future assumptions are all any of the pairings can make at the moment, granted some assumptions are more logical than others.

_You _can't talk about Sasuke's feelings without mentioning Naruto.  And vice versa.
Really, their bond is important but _so are others_.  In fact I'd go so far as to say that on Sasuke's end his bond with Itachi is more important to him than his one with Naruto.
The problem to me with constantly bringing it up is that you are comparing  completely different types of bonds on the same ground to see which one is more important, where the different bonds are important on different levels and one bond doesn't cancel out the other.
It seems an effort in futility since all the bonds are important to the characters for various reasons and ranking them on general strength doesn't do much when considering romantic feelings.

OT:
*Spoiler*: __ 



I know you like your NaruSasu goodness, and to each their own.  I however can't see anything beyond brotherly in their bond, so using it as a comparison for romantic feelings seems a wasted effort to me when certain pairings *coughNaruSakucaough* tend to fail on their own.


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## Tenrol (Mar 14, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Uh sorry, Naruhina does have development.  Sure, it's not romantic on Naruto's end but he does go from barely noticing her to considering her someone he likes as a person.
> And future assumptions are all any of the pairings can make at the moment, granted some assumptions are more logical than others.





What development? 


And according to the viz translation he likes peuple like her. Well true you can call it development i guess. it's a step from shy and weirdo.


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## KnightEnvy (Mar 14, 2009)

Ok.  What we have learned about NaruHina considering recent chapters. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




1) Hinata loves Naruto.  Kinda knew that one already.
2) Confession had an effect on Naruto, albeit a negative one.
3) Hinata is not dead....yet.  The potential of her not surviving the encounter is still there.

What is missing for NaruHina:

1) Naruto returning feelings.
2) Development, though this scene opens the door for future possibility.
3) Closure on the Sasuke issue.  Naruto is unlikely to have a romantic partner (either pairing) until he is able to shift his focus off of Sasuke.

Possible outcomes?

1) Hinata dies.  (End of pairing debate for NaruHina fans)
2) Naruto saves Hinata.  (Opens door for potential NaruHina)
3) Sakura saves Hinata.  (Potential rivalry? Not likely IMO)
4) Hinata fades away from limelight while search for Sasuke continues.  (Most likely)

Take it for what it is.  A step in the right direction if you are a NaruHina fan, but much more is needed for a reasonable pairing to happen.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 14, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Uh sorry, Naruhina does have development.  Sure, it's not romantic on Naruto's end but he does go from barely noticing her to considering her someone he likes as a person.
> And future assumptions are all any of the pairings can make at the moment, granted some assumptions are more logical than others.
> 
> _You _can't talk about Sasuke's feelings without mentioning Naruto.  And vice versa.
> ...



What the helk  first it was SasuSaku I was debating against, and either way, I'll be using what I find appropriate in countering romantic arguments of the Big 3. Sorry, NaruHina has no development in Part 2 except a confession. I simply didn't specify. I find it has nothing to draw conclusions on when it comes to mutuality - and that is what I call lack of development. I'm not going to change my mind just cos people here label NaruSasu as brotherly. The obsession Naruto has for someone else whether or not it be romantic cannot be ignored. Once again I'm not even debating NaruSasu. If people think it's so brotherly, then it means that Sasuke's consideraton towards Sakura is practically irrelevent. Naruto holds her in way higher acknowledgment, but even that is overshadowed by his bond with Sasuke  therefore I will choose my arguements accordingly. You don't get half of the cast commenting on their bond for nothing except hyping the brotherliness . The more I read the manga the more I see the Big 3 failing in terms of romance. And I have reasons why that don't include mere preference.
ItaSasu bond being more important? Last time I checked Sasuke said he had to kill Naruto despite what the latter had become to him - and that his death was worth it [failing to kill him anyway] - and it's more than whatever Sakura was or ever will be. Does it make a difference when trying to point out the obvious? Sasuke barely acknowledged her presence at the reunion scene - which interaction am I going to compare it to - Sai and Sasuke's ? With your logic no Sasuke pairing should be debated on here.


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 14, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> It's called friendship & team spirit. Those are not the feelings that you think.
> 
> *Bold part:* of course. It's only logical. Sasuke does not want to see any team mate die, same goes for Naruto and Sakura. It's bonds, not love, not 'destined' love, not even anything hinting towards him becoming Sakura's husband in the future. Guise, Sasuke is evil right now and has more to attend to than to become Sakura's husband, okay? It will not happen unless... Kishi decides that Sasuke can have a 180? turn (character-wise).
> 
> I think this is very unlikely. That's all I have to say, logic fills in the rest of the story.



I was not trying to argue that Sasuke had romantic feelings for Sakura. In that comment, I was arguing a point in electoraljew2's post where they said that Sasuke had no feelings for Sakura whatsoever. While I do agree that he doesn't have feelings for her that are romantic, I disagree strongly with the idea that he doesn't have any feelings for her at all. As you commented, he cares for her as a teammate and a comrade, and that was the point that I was trying to make. The word 'feelings' need not only refer to romantic ones, and to me it sounded as if the word was used in that quote to refer to Sasuke just not caring about Sakura period, as opposed to Sasuke not caring about her romantically.

*As for Sasuke having a 180? character turn*
*Spoiler*: __ 



The chapters involving Madara's revelation have proved that Sasuke CAN change his utter mindset. He went from thinking that Itachi was the most evil thing to ever walk the earth, caring about Itachi's life more than he cared about the entirety of Konoha village. His hatred for Itachi had defined his entire character for 400 chapters, and now he's completely reversed that idea. I see no reason why he can't have the same thing happen in terms of his view of the village. In fact, since Naruto, The Main Character, wants to get him back, I think that the odds are very high that Sasuke will be redeemed, one way or another.




I do agree that, at the moment, Sasuke doesn't care at all about becoming Sakura's husband. I would be rather shocked if he did. What I am saying is that he has the _potential_ to grow to care for her romantically.


----------



## The Duchess (Mar 14, 2009)

kyuubi425 said:


> Not gonna bother arguing with much more than this.
> 
> The "current development" you claim to be "too sudden to be satisfying" is no more than Hinata finally making Naruto aware of her feelings, which has been hinted at and foreshadowed throughout her appearances, and her interference in this fight sufficiently foreshadowed in 434. The way some are arguing you'd think Kishi made Naruto fall in love with her the moment the words left her lips. 437 is only the _beginning_ of the end, if Kishi intends NaruHina of course.


First off, I'm not a NH by any means, but I do love that sig of yours. xD


*Spoiler*: __ 



See now, a lot of NH shippers are banking on NH happening due to "long term developement over time". A lot of people are forgetting that this manga's gone on for almost 440 chapters, and that it's soon coming to a close. It would take at least 100 chapters, if not more, for Naruto to start falling for Hinata. And that's if this manga suddenly turned romance-centered and/or Hinata centered. 

People are also forgetting that Hinata isn't nearly as important as Sasuke, or the upcoming Kage summit, and that there's both a Kakashi arc and Sakura arc that need to be covered. Where will there be time for Naruto to be spending all his time going "Hmm, Hinata told me she loved me. What am I gonna do about it? Love her, of course. Now I better get started, I heard that takes a long time."




It's all so convienient. Naruto hasn't declared love for Sakura, so that must mean that he's completely open to being with Hinata. Sakura, on the other hand, was only pretending to get closer to Naruto (the closeness being noticed by multiple characters, but that doesn't matter 'cause she was pretending) because she really wants to be with Sasuke, who's only pretending not to be interested because his poor heart has been broken so many times that he doesn't want to risk another heart-wrenching heartbreak, not knowing that Sakura, with her heart full of healing love, would do anything to heal his broken heart to heal his soul, which is in need of healing.

If that doesn't make sense, then clearly you don't get out enough. Stuff like this happens all the time. 

Seriously, is this how people want the Big Three pairings to play out?


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## moonjump05 (Mar 14, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> What the helk  first it was SasuSaku I was debating against, and either way, *I'll be using what I find appropriate in countering romantic arguments of the Big 3*. Sorry, NaruHina has no development in Part 2 except a confession. I simply didn't specify. I find it has nothing to draw conclusions on when it comes to mutuality - and that is what I call lack of development. I'm not going to change my mind just cos people here label NaruSasu as brotherly. The obsession Naruto has for someone else whether or not it be romantic cannot be ignored. Once again I'm not even debating NaruSasu. If people think it's so brotherly, then it means that Sasuke's consideraton towards Sakura is practically irrelevent. Naruto holds her in way higher acknowledgment, but even that is overshadowed by his bond with Sasuke  therefore I will choose my arguements accordingly. *You don't get half of the cast commenting on their bond for nothing except hyping the brotherliness *. The more I read the manga the more I see the Big 3 failing in terms of romance. And I have reasons why that don't include mere preference.



Again, especially the first bolded part, it doesn't seem a legitimate arguement to me to simply rank the bonds and the strongest is therefore romantic.  Just because Naruto cares about Sasuke doesn't mean he could give a damn about Sakura, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Iruka, Tsunade, Shikamaru,..etc.  And just because Naruto cares about Sasuke doesn't mean that no other bond isn't unique and powerful in it's own right- Gaara comes to mind.

Naruto and Sakura have an obsession with Sasuke and getting him back, and is the driving force for both of their characters actions in Part 2.  To dismiss Sakura's goal because perhaps Naruto's is in the spotlight is overlooking a large part of her character.

The second bolded part is one of the reasons why their bond is considered so strong in the first place- because everyone and their mother talks about it, and always brotherly to boot.




> ItaSasu bond being more important? Last time I checked Sasuke said he had to kill Naruto despite what the latter had become to him - and that his death was worth it [failing to kill him anyway] - and it's more than whatever Sakura was or ever will be. Does it make a difference when trying to point out the obvious? Sasuke barely acknowledged her presence at the reunion scene - which interaction am I going to compare it to - Sai and Sasuke's ? With your logic no Sasuke pairing should be debated on here.



Since it's OT:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto's main driving force at this point is Sasuke.  Sasuke's main driving force is Itachi.  Again, I never mentioned any of the other characters and don't think, even though I said the above statements, that no other bond is important to them respectively.
The characters are allowed to have many different important people for many different reasons.






EarthBenderGal said:


> First off, I'm not a NH by any means, but I do love that sig of yours. xD
> 
> See now, a lot of NH shippers are banking on NH happening due to "long term developement over time". A lot of people are forgetting that this manga's gone on for almost 440 chapters, and that it's soon coming to a close. It would take at least 100 chapters, if not more, for Naruto to start falling for Hinata. And that's if this manga suddenly turned romance-centered and/or Hinata centered.



This is shounen, I really doubt the amount of chapters you say they need for 'development' is required.  Hell, Asuma/Kurenai is canon and they appeared what like three times together in Part 1?  Besides, they have development stretching all the way back to the written chuunin exam.
Also, Naruto is notorious for quickly making bonds- a single conversation can do the trick.



> People are also forgetting that Hinata isn't nearly as important as Sasuke, or the upcoming Kage summit, and that there's both a Kakashi arc and Sakura arc that need to be covered. Where will there be time for Naruto to be spending all his time going "Hmm, Hinata told me she loved me. What am I gonna do about it? Love her, of course. Now I better get started, I heard that takes a long time."



There is still alot of material in the manga to cover, however like the above post I don't think a massive amount of time or panel space is required to develop NaruHina.  Besides, we might get a Hyuuga presence when those Cloud ninja come.



> It's all so convienient. Naruto hasn't declared love for Sakura, so that must mean that he's completely open to being with Hinata.



Well, it does go to show that his romantic feelings are not all that strong for Sakura.  I don't see the pressing issue here.



> Sakura, on the other hand, was only pretending to get closer to Naruto (the closeness being noticed by multiple characters, but that doesn't matter 'cause she was pretending)...



Why is Sakura pretending to get closer to Naruto?  We _know _she has.  The greater part of Part 2 is their strengthening bond.

The question is really if that closeness has a romantic instigation, which doesn't seem to be the case.




> ...because she really wants to be with Sasuke, who's only pretending not to be interested because his poor heart has been broken so many times that he doesn't want to risk another heart-wrenching heartbreak, not knowing that Sakura, with her heart full of healing love, would do anything to heal his broken heart to heal it.



I'm not going to comment on the SasuSaku per se, but when Sasuke left I think a big part of those scenes was him trying to sever the bonds he made with Team 7.  Probably to make sure he could get his revenge, and also on some level to protect them from his revenge.


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## ironblade_x1 (Mar 15, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> First off, I'm not a NH by any means, but I do love that sig of yours. xD
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



That sounds awfully like extreme NaruSaku/SasuHina talk.

To answer you: No. That's terribly cliche, poor writing, and would undoubtedly raise the ire of the majority of Naruto's readers/viewers.

And to be honest, I could raise you the same point. For exactly how many panels can you honestly tell me there's been a possibly romance-leaning interaction between Naruto and Sakura in Part II? From my count, it's been 3-4 scenes that have been blown out of proportion (not being picky here, it's the same for every other ship) and held up as canonical proof. They're all the same.

It won't take 100 chapters to develop a relationship. Hell, it might not even take 5. And while this ending would suck for a majority of people, the easy out would  be simply to have several short dialogues between the two as the manga/anime rounds out and to tie it all off with an epilogue, where everyone's happy and no one knows what happened.

NaruHina getting together doesn't necessarily make SasuSaku automatic. Good 'ol Lee still loves his cherry blossom 

And this manga's hardly coming to a close. The amount of plot lines still flailing ensures at least another 4-5 long arcs, maybe more, assuming they don't all somehow tie together.

And to make a final point, if SasuSaku were to happen, as their relationship stands now it's impossible. But since it's pretty unlikely that they'll never talk again for the rest of the manga, I'll leave that up to time.


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

When it's NaruSaku, it is poor writing, terribly clich? and awful plot.
When it's NaruHina or SasuSaku, based on obligated love, it is beautiful, honest and admirable.

WHAT THE FUCK? Hypocricy must be among our ranks. Seriously guys, having one double-standard is enough, but *two*?

Sasuke does not love and never will love Sakura in a romantic way, this is just the absolute truth and the only way to keep Sasuke IC. Naruto may feel for Hinata [regret or obligated to respond to her love, albeit not a in a positive way] but this is also not in a romantic way. All of these pairings are clich?, so please cut the crap.

Thank you.


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## SasuraHime (Mar 15, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> I do agree that, at the moment, Sasuke doesn't care at all about becoming Sakura's husband. I would be rather shocked if he did. What I am saying is that he has the _potential_ to grow to care for her romantically.



I agree completely. I think that based on what he have to go off of at this point in time, its unlike for Sasuke and Sakura to develop anything. But it seems obvious to me that there is still development to come for Sasuke's character. The reason Sasuke's feelings of friensdship for Sakura are relevant is because it shows that if Sasuke were to develop feelings for any character it would most likely be ones that he already has bonds with (or obviously an entirely new character) and the only two people he already has bonds with and would realistically develop romantic love for are Sakura or Naruto. That doesn't mean he will develop romantic feelings for either of them or even anyone at all; they are just the most likely candidates.



EarthBenderGal said:


> It's all so convienient. Naruto hasn't declared love for Sakura, so that must mean that he's completely open to being with Hinata. Sakura, on the other hand, was only pretending to get closer to Naruto (the closeness being noticed by multiple characters, but that doesn't matter 'cause she was pretending) because she really wants to be with Sasuke, who's only pretending not to be interested because his poor heart has been broken so many times that he doesn't want to risk another heart-wrenching heartbreak, not knowing that Sakura, with her heart full of healing love, would do anything to heal his broken heart to heal his soul, which is in need of healing.
> 
> If that doesn't make sense, then clearly you don't get out enough. Stuff like this happens all the time.



What makes you think Sakura is only pretending to get closer to Naruto? Where are you getting this information? In Shippuuden, Sakura has been much quieter about any remaining _romantic_ feelings she still has for Sasuke. So how do you know that she still really wants to be with him? And even if she did, that doesn't mean she can't also develop a deeper bond with Naruto, romantic or otherwise. Maybe I'm missing your point?


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## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> When it's NaruSaku, it is poor writing, terribly clich? and awful plot.
> When it's NaruHina or SasuSaku, based on obligated love, it is beautiful, honest and admirable.
> 
> WHAT THE FUCK? Hypocricy must be among our ranks. Seriously guys, having one double-standard is enough, but *two*?
> ...



I don't know whether to like your sig or not... something seems off... it's the ginormous nipples I think...

I really don't think Naruto would ever respond that way to anyone out of pity or obligation.  He has no use for pity, and I just can't see him acting that way without completely changing his core character.


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> I don't know whether to like your sig or not... something seems off... it's the ginormous nipples I think...
> 
> I really don't think Naruto would ever respond that way to anyone out of pity or obligation.  He has no use for pity, and I just can't see him acting that way without completely changing his core character.


Yes, the nipples. I love it. And they are not enormous. They are a map to awesome-land.

He wouldn't? Then he would not respond to her desperate plea at all, as Naruto is in no way romantically involved with Hinata. The funny thing is; all the 'love' in Naruto is pretty much one-sided. And by 'love', I mean love in a romantic way.


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## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> I really don't think Naruto would ever respond that way to anyone out of pity or obligation.  He has no use for pity, and I just can't see him acting that way without completely changing his core character.




I think Naruto must be out of character here that

we should tell Kishimoto.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Yes, the nipples. I love it. And they are not enormous. They are a map to awesome-land.
> 
> He wouldn't? Then he would not respond to her desperate plea at all, as Naruto is in no way romantically involved with Hinata. The funny thing is; all the 'love' in Naruto is pretty much one-sided. And by 'love', I mean love in a romantic way.



They are awesome... just really pointy?

Well there is the option of him responding favorably as well 
There are several ways it can go after all, NaruHarem anyone? but we hopefully won't have to wait too long to find out for sure.

Since there is so much onesided romantic love in _Naruto_, I  personally would like to see some requited.


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

Correct. Thank you, Tenrol. I usually am too slow to find the chapters myself /sigh


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

*DP for great justice*



moonjump05 said:


> They are awesome... just really pointy?
> 
> Well there is the option of him responding favorably as well
> There are several ways it can go after all, NaruHarem anyone? but we hopefully won't have to wait too long to find out for sure.
> ...


That's what happens to everyone who is aroused and/or cold. 

The option of Naruto saying 'sure, Hinata. I will stop thinking about my own team and pretty much abandon it because apparently, you happen to love me.'

Sorry, but that would be like in bad SasuNaru fanfiction. Either an overly seme Naruto or an overly feminine uke Naruto. None of those are correct.

... But that Naruharem sounds interesting.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> I think Naruto must be out of character here that
> 
> we should tell Kishimoto.



It doesn't look like pity to me, Naruto is _empathizing _with Haku.  He understands what Zabuza means to him- just like what Sasuke  and Iruka mean to himself.

that

He doesn't hesitate out of pity but because he sees himself in Haku's shoes and understands why he feels that way.


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## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It doesn't look like pity to me, Naruto is _empathizing _with Haku.  He understands what Zabuza means to him- just like what Sasuke  and Iruka mean to himself.
> 
> that
> 
> He doesn't hesitate out of pity but because he sees himself in Haku's shoes and understands why he feels that way.



oh my god Haku just said Naruto couldn't kill him because of pity. and you're telling me that it wasn't?


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It doesn't look like pity to me, Naruto is _empathizing _with Haku.  He understands what Zabuza means to him- just like what Sasuke  and Iruka mean to himself.
> 
> that
> 
> He doesn't hesitate out of pity but because he sees himself in Haku's shoes and understands why he feels that way.


Every situation has a different approach and answer. And I don't see Naruto going all 'oh my, I love you because you love_ me_'. Sorry. That's not Naruto. Naruto likes tough love, me thinks. 

Just look at Sakura & Sasuke. Tough love. :ho


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## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> oh my god Haku just said Naruto couldn't kill him because of pity. and you're telling me that it wasn't?



Haku is trying to convince Naruto to kill him because he feels he has lost his purpose in life.  Why don't you try explaining all the flashbacks and words about Haku being just like him and the importance of someone's precious people from Naruto's end, then?

It's clearly empathy from Naruto.


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## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Haku is trying to convince Naruto to kill him because he feels he has lost his purpose in life.  Why don't you try explaining all the flashbacks and words about Haku being just like him and the importance of someone's precious people from Naruto's end, then?
> 
> It's clearly empathy from Naruto.



Well i guess Haku must have said it for the lulz then my only explication. And all those reasons you listed might be the cause for his pity


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## SasuraHime (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> oh my god Haku just said Naruto couldn't kill him because of pity. and you're telling me that it wasn't?





Kitsune Naruto said:


> Every situation has a different approach and answer. And I don't see Naruto going all 'oh my, I love you because you love_ me_'. Sorry. That's not Naruto. Naruto likes tough love, me thinks.
> 
> Just look at Sakura & Sasuke. Tough love. :ho



There's also a big difference between _not killing someone_ out of pity and entering a relationship with someone because of pity. So does it really matter whether or not that's what Naruto was actually feeling towards Haku? Because that situation is completely different.


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

I want to add that Naruto was indeed not pitying Haku. It was empathy. He does this with pretty much 99% of the villains present in this manga. This, however, does not change my opinion and statement.


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

Killing someone =/= a love confession, okay? Let's not have debates involving faulty logic. :ho

*Well shit, delete your post then. *


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## twilight (Mar 15, 2009)

I think Naru-Hina is bullshit. It's never going to happen.

*Spoiler*: __ 




You can't out of the blue love someone because they saved you. It takes time to love someone not a couple of minutes. Just because she confessed doesn't mean Naruto automatically has to say yes. He doesn't, he already likes another girl what makes you think a couple of minutes of being with Hinata is going to overshadow Naruto's love for Sakura. He has loved her for years now. Seriously how can a girl who confessed out of the nowhere possibly have a shot at this.



How can two people who haven't talked in like 2 years possibly have any connection with each other. You can't say Naru-Hina is cannon because there is nothing there to back that up. What is there to back it up,yeah shit,nothing. Her confession doesn't mean automatic yes. That's why the word no was created. A one sided love like Naru-Hina  is never going to happen. A pairing without development is not going anywhere because it takes two to tango. Unfortunately Naruto is not digging Hinata making this a never going to happen pairing.


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## ironblade_x1 (Mar 15, 2009)

twilight said:


> I think Naru-Hina is bullshit. It's never going to happen.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



1. Naruto didn't have any interaction with anyone other than Jiraiya and his ladies for two years. So ranting about his lack of interaction with Hinata is no different.

2. I wasn't aware there was anything canon backing up NaruSaku as anything more than one-sided. It isn't hard to grow close as teammates, but you can't tell me Chouji/Ino is canon because of their repeated close interactions, or ShikaIno is any more canon. They're freaking teammates. They've gone on numerous life/death missions, saved each other, helped each other, and all that loving jazz, for years.

3. Naruto isn't digging Hinata? I wasn't aware. They were pretty aware of each other in part I. The only reason she's been excluding in part II was to make way for much more relevant plot, namely Sasuke and Akatsuki's whole rule-the-world complex.

I'm not a NaruHina fan, but fact is Naruto's been gone. For a while. Saying he hasn't interacted with her is a moot point; he hasn't interacted with much of anyone. Few lines with Shika here, a couple with Lee there, but what else? Even with Sakura, outside of 3-4 missions, there hasn't been too much interaction.

Don't let bias cloud the obvious.


*Spoiler*: __ 



And we don't see what happens in missions either. I've got good money on the anime putting in some special scenes during the team 10 Sasuke retrieval mission


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## Erendhyl (Mar 15, 2009)

twilight said:


> How can two people who haven't talked in like 2 years possibly have any connection with each other.



Naruto and Sakura hadn't talked in two years prior to Naruto's reintroduction in chapter 245. Are you saying that they have no connection with each other as well?



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> You can't out of the blue love someone because they saved you. It takes time to love someone not a couple of minutes. Just because she confessed doesn't mean Naruto automatically has to say yes.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Of course her confession doesn't automatically mean that Naruto will say yes. If he did, I would really wonder just how desperate he was. However, he wouldn't have to fall for her in a couple of minutes. If someone saves your life, they don't just fade into the background again once the battle is over. He's going to notice Hinata now, simply because of this. Her confession does NOT mean that he automatically has to fall in love with her. What it does mean is that, as a product of him noticing her more, he stands a far greater chance of beginning to view her in a romantic light.


 

Naruto commented during the training field scene that he likes people like her. That line by itself had no romantic meaning, and it certainly doesn't mean that he developed a crush on her there. However, it does mean that it is not impossible for him to develop a crush on her, because he already likes people like her.



> He doesn't, he already likes another girl what makes you think a couple of minutes of being with Hinata is going to overshadow *Naruto's love for Sakura*. He has loved her for years now.



When has Naruto ever said that he loves Sakura? In chapter 3, Viz's translation said "I'm finally starting to understand what I love *about* Sakura." The 'about' is the key word. Loving a characteristic of someone doesn't mean that you love that someone. What I love about my best friend is that we share the same interests. What I love about my parents is that they're good people. That doesn't mean that I love them (romantically). Heck, I've _loved_ some attribute of every guy I've ever had a crush on, but that does not mean that my feelings for them were ever more than just a crush. Just because Naruto said here that he loved something about Sakura didn't mean that he actually loved her.

That being said, I don't know of any place where Naruto actually says in as many words that he loves Sakura. How do we know then that his feelings ever did mature beyond a crush and he actually fell in love with her?

Sakura has stated that she loves Sasuke.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata has stated that she loves Naruto.


 Naruto has yet to say that he loves Sakura, either to her face or to the readers in his mind.



> A one sided love like Naru-Hina is never going to happen.



At the moment, every pairing in the series is one sided. _Any_ pairing only has a hope of becoming canon through one party changing their mind and returning the feelings of the other.


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## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Naruto and Sakura hadn't talked in two years prior to Naruto's reintroduction in chapter 245. Are you saying that they have no connection with each other as well?



Well obviously since he was training. Wait plus when he came back i guess he wasnt friend enough with Hinata to say hi to her. 




> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well i guess Naruto must love something enough about Sakura to kiss her uh. don't you think. 




> Sakura has stated that she loves Sasuke.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Kishi stated it was selfish. and The DB3 is stating it was a similar feeling to love not love.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 15, 2009)

> I think Naru-Hina is bullshit. It's never going to happen.



One piece of advice: Never say *never.*


*Spoiler*: __ 





> You can't out of the blue love someone because they saved you. It takes time to love someone not a couple of minutes. *Just because she confessed doesn't mean Naruto automatically has to say yes*.He doesn't, *he already likes another girl what makes you think a couple of minutes of being with Hinata is going to overshadow Naruto's love for Sakura. He has loved her for years now*. Seriously *how can a girl who confessed out of the nowhere possibly have a shot at this.*



I´m going to adress the bolded parts.

1-NaruHina is not going to develop out of the blue and Naruto is not going to fall instantly for Hinata after her confession. And he is not expected to say yes, is not an obligation. Before he gives an answer, he will have to take some time to think about it and sort things out because he has the oppurtunity to be with someone and grow fond of that person.

2-I seriously doubt Naruto still feels something for Sakura besides an strong friendship. And those couples of minutes he spent with Hinata were meaningful.
And just as Naruto has "loved" Sakura for years, so has Hinata to him, from the very beginning.

3-To answer your question about how can a girl that has just confessed out of nowhere can have a shot is quite simply:

She has a chance because Naruto has never been told the things he heard in chapter 437. He never thought that anybody(specially from the opposite sex)was chasing him, that anyone would want to overtake him, that someone would want to walk with him, that somebody in the world would want to *be with him*.
Those words were sincere and had an impact on him, Naruto could not believe what was coming out of Hinata´s mouth, could not comprehend what could that "shy weirdo" he met long ago could possibly see in him to say all those things. He has always strive for akcnowledgement and love, he always chased after Sakura, to walk with Sakura, to overtake Sakura, to be able to _be with Sakura._

Now, he knows that there is someone out there who has done the same thing all along. And considering that Naruto has never been told that he is loved and that there is somebody that do its, for what reason Naruto wouldn´t want to give it a try? What if it works? This is an opportunity of a lifetime for him to expirience the things he wanted to feel with Sakura but couldn´t, he has the chance to to seek love with another person who already does it with him. But this is up to him to decide, only he can make the choice to still wait for Sakura or give the girl who has loved him and his natural traits since the beginning a chance not only for her, but for himself.

And considering that Sakura is indeed starting to feel things for Naruto, it will be better that she sorts them out quickly, ´cause everything has a limit and she had plenty of opportunities in Part 1(that is, if we ignore her still strong feelings for Sasuke )



> *How can two people who haven't talked in like 2 years possibly have any connection with each other.* You can't say Naru-Hina is cannon because there is nothing there to back that up. *What is there to back it up,yeah shit,nothing.* Her confession doesn't mean automatic yes. That's why the word no was created. *A one sided love like Naru-Hina is never going to happen.* A pairing without development is not going anywhere because it takes two to tango.* Unfortunately Naruto is not digging Hinata making this a never going to happen pairing.*



I´m going to follow the same pattern as I did before.

1-You ask how two people that haven´t talk in 2 years can have a connection with each other, then I guess you have forgotten that Naruto makes bonds with people quite quickly. But if I take your word, then it is illogical that Naruto has a connection with Sakura, who he didn´t talk in 2 years while he was training and the same thing applies to Sasuke.
In this manga, the distance does not makes the bonds waver.

2-I could say the thing about NaruSaku you know, that there is nothing but shit to back it up. So please try to be a little more elaborative.

3-All of this pairings we debate are one sided. If anyone of them had mutual feelings being reciprocated then it couldn´t be debated or considered one sided, but that its yet to happen.
And I´ll repeat, never say never, you never know when it might become true.

4-And so Sakura doesn´t to Naruto nor Naruto any longer with Sakura. But with Hinata, someone who has been digging Naruto for quite some time, there is the chance he might start digging on her.

And again, don´t say never.


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## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

> 2-I seriously doubt Naruto still feels something for Sakura besides an strong friendship. And those couples of minutes he spent with Hinata were meaningful.
> And just as Naruto has "loved" Sakura for years, so has Hinata to him, from the very beginning.




So Hinata and Sakura can feel something forever for their truelubz but Naruto can't for Sakura? lol? explain please.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 15, 2009)

> Naruto and Sakura hadn't talked in two years prior to Naruto's reintroduction in chapter 245. Are you saying that they have no connection with each other as well?



Though Sakura and Naruto didn't meet for two years, they still went through life/death situations and have a mutually developed relationship  even Sasuke and Sakura have more connection than Naruto and Hinata!



> When has Naruto ever said that he loves Sakura? In chapter 3, Viz's translation said "I'm finally starting to understand what I love about Sakura." The 'about' is the key word. Loving a characteristic of someone doesn't mean that you love that someone.



Viz or whatever translation - Naruto says he understood in that moment why he liked Sakura. However you interpret it - there is no denying he pursued her for a reason. And what's Sakura's reason for pursuing Sasuke ? A point like that can't be taken seriously without SasuNaru interpretation.

Naruto has demonstrated to have EXTREME regard for Sakura's feelings and well-being. It's definitely not his prime concern to have her acknowledgment above Sasuke's but it's really crossing the line dismissing his feelings completely on a romantic level. But why does it happen? Oh cos Naruto didn't confess truluvz! Cos a guy will totally do that in a shounen series when he has a lot more on his mind than romance. Urgh I don't even know why I'm defending NaruSaku in the first place but this double standard/blatant ignorement of the male's feelings clearly can't dismiss NaruSaku - this should be evident. People love to say that Naruto is so attached to Sasuke cos he grew up funny so why shouldn't he have an unorthodox approach to romance? [personally I loathe that arguement but alas this is the NH/SS/NS debate thread]. If Hinata's feelings are oh-so-serious then why aren't Naruto's when he literally puts his own sake aside for this girl who has no eyes but for Sasuke-kwoon!? NaruSaku isn't real love like NH and SS, yeah ...



> Naruto commented during the training field scene that he likes people like her. That line by itself had no romantic meaning, and it certainly doesn't mean that he developed a crush on her there. However, it does mean that it is not impossible for him to develop a crush on her, because he already likes people like her.



Naruto likes people like Hinata just as he likes people like Lee - that have determination for their ninja way! A reason I don't see NaruHina happening is cos Naruto has so far felt no reason to fancy her in a special way. She's great and all, but that's not enough to make someone fall in love with you. I too, when I used to support NaruHina, felt romantic hope in that line. But 200+ chapters proved it wrong.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 15, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Naruto and Sakura hadn't talked in two years prior to Naruto's reintroduction in chapter 245. Are you saying that they have no connection with each other as well?



That argument is a fallacy.   

Of course Naruto hasn't talked to anyone for nearly 3 years.   But he was much closer to Sakura than Hinata, because he immediately picked up where he left off with Sakura and they understood one another.   But with Naruto and Hinata, upon their reunion, he was dumbfounded why she fainted.



Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Of course her confession doesn't automatically mean that Naruto will say yes. If he did, I would really wonder just how desperate he was. However, he wouldn't have to fall for her in a couple of minutes. If someone saves your life, they don't just fade into the background again once the battle is over. He's going to notice Hinata now, simply because of this. Her confession does NOT mean that he automatically has to fall in love with her. What it does mean is that, as a product of him noticing her more, he stands a far greater chance of beginning to view her in a romantic light.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I won't argue that there is potential that Naruto would look upon Hinata a bit more differently, but until there is something that shows that Naruto gave up having affection for Sakura, and start developing a relationship with Hinata, I wouldn't call it NaruHina.






Erendhyl said:


> Naruto commented during the training field scene that he likes people like her. That line by itself had no romantic meaning, and it certainly doesn't mean that he developed a crush on her there. However, it does mean that it is not impossible for him to develop a crush on her, because he already likes people like her.



I still don't take it as romantic, I took it him appricating her friendship because she didn't alienate him like the rest of the village had up til that point.



Erendhyl said:


> When has Naruto ever said that he loves Sakura? In chapter 3, Viz's translation said "I'm finally starting to understand what I love *about* Sakura." The 'about' is the key word. Loving a characteristic of someone doesn't mean that you love that someone. What I love about my best friend is that we share the same interests. What I love about my parents is that they're good people. That doesn't mean that I love them (romantically). Heck, I've _loved_ some attribute of every guy I've ever had a crush on, but that does not mean that my feelings for them were ever more than just a crush. Just because Naruto said here that he loved something about Sakura didn't mean that he actually loved her.
> 
> That being said, I don't know of any place where Naruto actually says in as many words that he loves Sakura. How do we know then that his feelings ever did mature beyond a crush and he actually fell in love with her?
> 
> ...



Well, as we learned long ago, there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.  

Even though the official translation says that, it's unrefutable that Naruto has an affection for Sakura.   Heck, in when she first appears, what does Naruto do?  Why he says, "Sakura-chan! "    (Gee, lighting up and hearts, na, that's not love.  Just like him wanting to kiss her, all the times he tried asking her out, saving Sakura's life, and saving Sasuke wasn't all out of love.  )



Sennin of Hardwork said:


> 2-I could say the thing about NaruSaku you know, that there is nothing but shit to back it up. So please try to be a little more elaborative.



Care to ellaborate on that?  

That shit pairing, still has ton more substance than NaruHina.   Even SasuSaku has more evidence than NaruHina.



Sennin of Hardwork said:


> 4-And so Sakura doesn´t to Naruto nor Naruto any longer with Sakura. But with Hinata, someone who has been digging Naruto for quite some time, there is the chance he might start digging on her.
> 
> And again, don´t say never



The only way Naruto is going to start liking Hinata is if he gives up on Sakura.   And right now, if I was a NaruHina, I'd be very worried about Sakura requitting Naruto's love.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Because right now, there is a very good possibility that Kishimoto could finish off, what was started in Chapter 297.


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## Nadini (Mar 15, 2009)

Pfft, Tyrannos, you know fully well that cut-off scene was about confidence issues, nothing romantic whatsoever.

I mean, Sakura loves Sasuke, Yamato knows nothing about their relationships, so his or Sai's opinion is flawed.


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

I must admit, the NarutoxHinata bond is admirable, and should be respected. Hinata is one of Naruto's most loved persons, considering the fact that he actually talks to anybody but her in somewhat every panel.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> So Hinata and Sakura can feel something forever for their truelubz but Naruto can't for Sakura? lol? explain please.



The Promise of a Lifetime pretty much said that Naruto realized that Sakura´s heart belonged to someone else. Sakura came to him crying and begged him to save Sasuke, that he was the only one able to do it. Naruto never thought that Sasuke´s departure could have such an impact on Sakura. And Naruto himself saw that his best friend didn´t mind having a physicall shown of affection from Sakura, who hugged him the moment he woke up(and that she herself spent many days by his side, hoping the moment he woke up)

It hurt Naruto deepply to let go of her, but he still decided to step aside, he realized that if that was the only way to show her he really care, then he would do it.



> Care to ellaborate on that?
> 
> That shit pairing, still has ton more substance than NaruHina. Even SasuSaku has more evidence than NaruHina.



If you didn´t realize or you didn´t see it, that was a response to Twillight´s argument that said that there wasn´t nothing but shit to back up NaruHina and I decided to answer her/him in the same fashion asked her/him to ellaborate more that argument, because it was pretty much vague.

Of course SasuSaku has substance, it is the only pairing besides NaruHina to have a meaningful love confession. 



> The only way Naruto is going to start liking Hinata is if he gives up on Sakura. And right now, if I was a NaruHina, I'd be very worried about Sakura requitting Naruto's love.



Which he already has done in the PoaL. Nowadays, most of his date requests are comedic and how Sakura still rejects them in a more respectful way.

(And as a NaruHina fan, I woulnd´t be so worried about Sakura requitting Naruto´s love, because everytime something with great importance that is related to Sasuke is anounced, she becomes shocked and gets a "FTW related to Sasuke-kun" look on her face.)


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Because right now, there is a very good possibility that Kishimoto could finish off, what was started in Chapter 297.



In the middle of the destruction that has fallen upon Konoha? When life of countless people are in danger and one big geographic part of the forest has been torn apart in order to seal the Kyuubi and it has evolved into an 8 tail transoformation? I doubt it.

And right now Sakura is doing her best to evacuate the people from the ruins of Konoha and is on her way to apply medical assistance on Hinata.

And the last time Yamato was seen, he was on his way to where Naruto was and almost crapped in his pants when he realized that the Kyuubi was at almost 9 tails to be released.




KN: Thanks for that comment. The same could be said about Sakura.


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## twilight (Mar 15, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Naruto and Sakura hadn't talked in two years prior to Naruto's reintroduction in chapter 245. Are you saying that they have no connection with each other as well?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No he's not going to notice her in a romantic way because he already likes someone else. You can't just say he's going to totally forget about Sakura and then notice Hinata for the supposal so self sacrificing lover she is.

Wow just cause he said that he likes people like her doesn't mean he has a crush on her. That could mean he likes her as a friend that could mean many things so excuse me.

Also if your so blind that you can't even see that Naruto does love Sakura there's no point in arguing with you. It has been stated that Naruto has loved Sakura-chan since the beginning. He called Sakura-chan beautiful many times and talked about how much he loved her in his head. He has showed his affection multiple time in the manga for Sakura. Way more times than he has showed Hinata. He hasn't even showed any type of real love affection towards this girl and now you and the pack trying to tell me this pairing could actually happen. God even Sasuke has showed more affection towards Sakura than Naruto has showed towards Hinata.

The point is it's not going to happen. A girl who he barely even recognizes is now going to win his love. On top of that he has no romantic feelings for her and already likes another girl in a romantic way. Are you guys even listening to your selfs. This pairing is on the same boat as Sasu-Saku. There are slim chances of it happening and right now it doesn't look like it's going to happen.


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## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> The Promise of a Lifetime pretty much said that Naruto realized that Sakura´s heart belonged to someone else. Sakura came to him crying and begged him to save Sasuke, that he was the only one able to do it. Naruto never thought that Sasuke´s departure could have such an impact on Sakura. And Naruto himself saw that his best friend didn´t mind having a physicall shown of affection from Sakura, who hugged him the moment he woke up(and that she herself spent many days by his side, hoping the moment he woke up)




So Naruto can't loves her anymore because he realized her heart belong to some else? And of course he Sasuke didn't mind he just woke up from long week coma


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## Kathutet (Mar 15, 2009)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> The Promise of a Lifetime -insert moar here-
> 
> KN: Thanks for that comment. The same could be said about Sakura.


The promise of a lifetime also applies to Naruto's own ambitions; he wants Sasuke back for himself too. This is being seen in pretty much every single panel.

Oh? I saw a lot more dialogue containing Sakura than I saw actual dialog with Hinata. Or if by dialog you mean saying 'hi' (or trying) and fainting?

Please, keep it real.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> So Naruto can't loves her anymore because he realized her heart belong to some else? And of course he Sasuke didn't mind he just woke up from long week coma



We should ask ourselves this question:

Who is Naruto to still pursue Sakura´s heart when he has witnessed how much she cares for his rival/friend/brother and is being personally asked to save him? It would look selfish from his part, after seeing all of what I have mentioned and he saw, to still try to win Sakura´s affection, when she is there crying her heart out for anothe man.

In the PoaL, Naruto showed great maturity by dedicating himself grant Sakura her whish to get back Sasuke(which joined his primary reason that was getting him back for the bond Sasuke and Naruto had)Naruto grow up that day.

And if you go to the chapter in where Sasuke wakes up, his expression is one of somene who has already become aware of his surroundings and he looks at Sakura´s back, confused at her sudden show of affection.

The interesting part is that Naruto saw all this. When Sasuke woke up, Naruto was about to tell him something, but he remained quite and saw the scene in front of him unfolding: Sakura was hugging him tightly while crying and Sasuke simply looked at her, with no trace of disgust whatsoever. The scene ends with Naruto smiling in a sad and painfully way, thinking: "I guess your not so much of a teme as I thought".

KN: Of course Naruto wants Sasuke back for himself(though I doubt in that manner)

And all that of faiting you mentioned is an effect of how much Naruto´s presence impacts Hinata, she is so in love with him that she couldn´t help it.

And I was keeping it real. I was reffering that I also respected the NaruSaku bond and that Sakura is also one of Naruto´s most beloved persons. I don´t know what I said to make you assume another thing. Sorry if I did though.


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## Nadini (Mar 15, 2009)

So pretty much the same old 

"Naruto supports SasuSaku by letting go of his feelings in the PoaL"
"Sakura without a doubt loves Sasuke in part2 even with no mention of it"
"Sasuke woke up and is accepting Sakura's hug(umm yeah, like he didn't wake up from a coma.... k).. i find this point really stupid, considering he slapped her apples after that and stepped on em with no remorse."

do you see how the 3 above mentioned points sound stupid?

stop fucking trying to portray sasuke as some poor emo kid that needs his heart healed.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 15, 2009)

LoL will people stop connecting the hospital scene with the PoaL!? Possible that SasuSaku always uses evidence where Sasuke is mindfucked!? It has no foundation whatsoever that Naruto gave up on so-called romantic feelings towards her when he simply said he understood how she felt! He *still* asks her on dates! In the Poal, he is clearly putting aside his own pain, but no side can be sure for WHAT precisely! But what's ridiculous is when Anti-NaruSaku, when faced with the PoaL, says Naruto puts his feelings aside seeing SasuSaku - boasting he doesn't really love her in a significant romantic way! Wth? Doesn't that imply his love is suppressed, esp now? If that's true you can be sure NaruHina ISN'T happening.

P.S. Does anyone care to notice that Naruto went through hell to get Tsunade to come to the village cure Sasuke? I don't see why should he feel great about seeing them all to each other when he was just as worried. He just didn't want to be a third wheel there cos Sakura was crying.


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## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Who is Naruto to still pursue Sakura´s heart when he has witnessed how much she cares for his rival/friend/brother and is being personally asked to save him? It would look selfish from his part, after seeing all of what I have mentioned and he saw, to still try to win Sakura´s affection, when she is there crying her heart out for anothe man.



Well Naruto didn't hold back to ask her on a date in part 2. and if you're going to say because it was comedic. This mean you're saying he is asking Sakura on a date for the lulz? Anyway even if it's comedic doesn't mean that he wasn't serious about that. 



> In the PoaL, Naruto showed great maturity by dedicating himself grant Sakura her whish to get back Sasuke(which joined his primary reason that was getting him back for the bond Sasuke and Naruto had)Naruto grow up that day.



And guess what? he did it because he loves her.





> The interesting part is that Naruto saw all this. When Sasuke woke up, Naruto was about to tell him something, but he remained quite and saw the scene in front of him unfolding: Sakura was hugging him tightly while crying and Sasuke simply looked at her, with no trace of disgust whatsoever. The scene ends with Naruto smiling in a sad and painfully way, thinking: "I guess your not so much of a teme as I thought".




Or maybe he just saw how much Sakura loved Sasuke? And how can you know he was thinking that?


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## Erendhyl (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well obviously since he was training. Wait plus when he came back i guess he wasnt friend enough with Hinata to say hi to her.



He wasn't trying to say hi to Sakura either. In the manga, he bumps into her and Tsunade on the street right after giving the Icha Icha book to Kakashi. Of course he said hi to her then; it would have been rude not to.



> Well i guess Naruto must love something enough about Sakura to kiss her uh. don't you think.



Lust is not the same thing as love. Sakura wanted to be Sasuke's first kiss at this point, as she comments when it winds up being Naruto; does that mean that Sakura's at-this-point-obviously-fangirlish feelings for Sasuke were true love?



> Kishi stated it was selfish. and The DB3 is stating it was a similar feeling to love not love.



When did Kishimoto say that it was selfish? (That's a serious question--the only interviews that I ever hear about are through forums.) Also, what did you mean by the second sentence? I ask because you said "love not love", which I assume was a typo. (I've never seen the data books either.)



> *Originally posted by izzyisozaki*
> Naruto has demonstrated to have EXTREME regard for Sakura's feelings and well-being. It's definitely not his prime concern to have her acknowledgment above Sasuke's but it's really crossing the line dismissing his feelings completely on a romantic level.



I acknowledge that Naruto has romantic feelings, and that they're still present. What I am trying to say is that I haven't seen any maturing of those feelings beyond crush level. Every time he's said anything that is definitely romantic, it's been to ask Sakura on spur-of-the-moment  or back at the beginning of the series, where he tried to steal her first kiss. He's sixteen now--if he actually loves Sakura, why isn't he taking his romantic feelings toward her more seriously? He is Naruto, so I don't expect ultra-maturity, but actually planning out when to ask her on a date or thinking about her when she's not around would indicate to me that he's actually serious in his affections. He has yet to do either. To me, Naruto just doesn't sound like he actually loves Sakura; he sounds like he has a crush on her, and that is why I don't consider his feelings for her to be that important.





> *Originally posted by izzyisozaki*
> But why does it happen? Oh cos Naruto didn't confess truluvz! Cos a guy will totally do that in a shounen series when he has a lot more on his mind than romance.



This may be shounen, but Kishimoto still managed to fit two love confessions into the series. Kishi writes the plot; if he wanted to he could create a scene where it would be believable for Naruto to confess his feelings for Sakura. Instead, he created a scene for Sakura to confess her love for Sasuke and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



A scene for Hinata to confess her love for Naruto.






> *Originally posted by izzyisozaki*
> People love to say that Naruto is so attached to Sasuke cos he grew up funny so why shouldn't he have an unorthodox approach to romance?



So far he's called her a babe, asked her out, wanted to kiss her, and fought to save her. None of that sounds unorthodox to me.



> *Originally posted by izzyisozaki*
> If Hinata's feelings are oh-so-serious then why aren't Naruto's when he literally puts his own sake aside for this girl who has no eyes but for Sasuke-kwoon!?



What event are you referring to there? *serious question*



> *Originally posted by Tyrannos*
> That argument is a fallacy.
> 
> Of course Naruto hasn't talked to anyone for nearly 3 years. But he was much closer to Sakura than Hinata, because he immediately picked up where he left off with Sakura and they understood one another. But with Naruto and Hinata, upon their reunion, he was dumbfounded why she fainted.



I wasn't trying to use it as an argument. I was trying to point out that it was faulty where it was used as an argument earlier in this thread to say that Hinata and Naruto could not have a connection because they hadn't seen each other in two years.

Within seven panels of Naruto and Sakura's reunion, she has the little manga-three-lines-of-anger mark. Within 25, she's already hitting him. That's not a much better reunion than what Naruto and Hinata had.



> *Originally posted by Tyrannos*
> Even though the official translation says that, it's unrefutable that Naruto has an affection for Sakura. Heck, in when she first appears, what does Naruto do? Why he says, "Sakura-chan! " (Gee, lighting up and hearts, na, that's not love. Just like him wanting to kiss her, all the times he tried asking her out, saving Sakura's life, and saving Sasuke wasn't all out of love. )



I am not arguing that he had affection for her. What I am arguing is the depth of that affection. Wanting to kiss someone, asking them out, hearts, and lighting up can mean either lust or love, and it is never specifically clarified which Naruto felt for Sakura.

Saving her life is different. That shows that he actually feels something real and genuine for her. But why does it have to be love? During the entire fight of Naruto vs. Gaara (which I think is what you're referring to--if not, please say so), he never said anything about wanting to save Sakura because he loved her. He just said that he wanted to save her. She was his comrade and she was going to die if he didn't do something--of course he wanted to save her! He kept saying "I will save Sakura-chan" and not "I will save Sakura-chan and Sasuke" because _Sakura_ was the one who was being squeezed to death.

Later on in the fight, Sasuke was able to move enough to jump between Naruto and the tree after Naruto used his Thousand Years of Pain. Sasuke would have been able to run away at that point if Naruto had failed. Sakura needed Naruto to win or else she would die.


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## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> He wasn't trying to say hi to Sakura either. In the manga, he bumps into her and Tsunade on the street right after giving the Icha Icha book to Kakashi. Of course he said hi to her then; it would have been rude not to.



So you're telling Naruto wasn't going to say hi to her ever? 





> Lust is not the same thing as love. Sakura wanted to be Sasuke's first kiss at this point, as she comments when it winds up being Naruto; does that mean that Sakura's at-this-point-obviously-fangirlish feelings for Sasuke were true love?



Well he noticed something why he loved Sakura and then it's now that Naruto was going to kiss her. He wasn't fanboying about it by the way.





> When did Kishimoto say that it was selfish? (That's a serious question--the only interviews that I ever hear about are through forums.) Also, what did you mean by the second sentence? I ask because you said "love not love", which I assume was a typo. (I've never seen the data books either.)



On a chapter cover in part 1 and i'll find it when i feel like to. By the 2nd sentence i mean the DB3 was stating Sakura only had a feeling *similar to love* not love.


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## Kurama (Mar 15, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





twilight said:


> No he's not going to notice her in a romantic way because he already likes someone else. You can't just say he's going to totally forget about Sakura and then notice Hinata for the supposal so self sacrificing lover she is.



No she's not going to notice him in a romantic way because she already likes someone else. You can't just say she's going to totally forget about Sasuke and then notice Naruto for the supposal so self sacrificing lover he is.

C wut I did thar?




> Wow just cause he said that he likes people like her doesn't mean he has a crush on her. That could mean he likes her as a friend that could mean many things so excuse me.



It's a start is what it is. If it wasn't, Kishi wouldn't have done what he did in 437.



> Also if your so blind that you can't even see that Naruto does love Sakura there's no point in arguing with you.



Blind? No. Skeptical due to severe lack of development and focus in comparison to the girls? Yes.



> It has been stated that Naruto has loved Sakura-chan since the beginning.



Daisuki [Hinata to Naruto, along with pretty much telling him she wanted HIS acknowledgment:437, Naruto in regards to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke in PoLt]>>>Suki[Naruto to himself after learning Sakura wants Sasuke's romantic acknowledgment: 3]

Suki di Suki tamaranai[sp?][Sakura to Sasuke:181] >>>Suki

Kekko Suki [Naruto to Hinata: Training Field]>>>Suki

Just sayin'.



> He called Sakura-chan beautiful many times and talked about how much he loved her in his head.



Correction, his introduction is that she's a cute girl he's kind of interested in, and then he compares Haku and Itachi's genjutsu puppet to her saying htey were _prettier_.




> He has showed his affection multiple time in the manga for Sakura.


He has? I mean, he's suggested dates n all and tried to see what she thought of him in Chapter 3, but other than that I don't remember anything of him showing her his affection, closest would be PoLt but the scene in itself is kind of counterproductive since he's essentially letting her go. Sakura showed her affection for Sasuke by visiting him everyday while he was in the hospital. Hinata shows her affection by being willing to sacrifice her life to protect him, no matter how small the chance or how futile the gesture.

And please don't try to bring up the Gaara fight.



> Way more times than he has showed Hinata.



Perhaps, but he's been much more emotionally invested in matters dealing with Hinata than he has with matters with Sakura that don't have Sasuke involved. And no I don't have the time to break it down, and frankly I don't care to.



> He hasn't even showed any type of real love affection towards this girl



IMO he hasn't shown any type of "real" love affection towards ANYONE. Attraction, yes. Romantic love, no.



> and now you and the pack trying to tell me this pairing could actually happen.



Any of the three could actually happen. 

Yes, I said it.



> God even Sasuke has showed more affection towards Sakura than Naruto has showed towards Hinata.



Good point for SasuSaku then.



> The point is it's not going to happen.



I could say the same for NaruSaku, with much more actual substantial evidence to back up my claim, but I won't bother.



> A girl who he barely even recognizes is now going to win his love.



Methinks you mean notice. The only actual account of that is the written Exam. Naruto recognizes Hinata quite easily. In her introduction he shows he's noticed her in the past. 



> On top of that he has no romantic feelings for her and already likes another girl in a romantic way.


He has lingering romantic feelings [that can actually be argued to no longer exist] for a girl that is not romantically interested in him and already likes another guy in a romantic way. He just learned this girl he grew fond of [yes, he has. "A person like you, I really like".] after getting closer to her during the chuunin exam loves him enough to sacrifice her life for his protection, because he saved her from her own hell. To put it into perspective, he is both her Iruka and Sasuke, just taken into a romantic angle. He won't take it lightly.



> Are you guys even listening to your selfs.



...lol.



> This pairing is on the same boat as Sasu-Saku.



Good for SasuSaku then.



> There are slim chances of it happening and right now it doesn't look like it's going to happen.



Lets see

NaruHina: Hinata loves Naruto. Naruto now knows this and hasn't responded aside from shock on the revelation and intense rage upon her apparent death. Barring his capture, upon returning from his enraged state, he'll likely pursue Hinata not only to be assured of her fate, but to talk to her more about her revelation if she is indeed alive. Of course, Kishi could be a dick and brush over this conversation [or just make us wait another 100 chapters while dealing with all the other plot lines]. Naruto could decide he is not interested in her romantically, but looking at his expression at her words, I highly doubt this.

SasuSaku: Sakura loves/loved Sasuke. Sasuke knows this, and has a more pressing issue to his character [revenge] to deal with, therefore at this point cannot trouble himself with romantic ties. Sasuke's reasons for [as far as we know] not returning her affections is his duty that is the center of his character, not simple plain disinterest.

NaruSaku: Naruto likes/liked Sakura. Sakura knows this, and continues to turn him down in his "pursuits" despite her opinion of him turning from pest to precious person. Naruto acknowledged her feelings for Sasuke, and backed down in the Promise of a Lifetime. Sakura's reason for not returning his affections could be her duty and focus on the team, but if she was the least bit considerate of him as a romantic option, she would actually show some kind of consideration for his feelings and what he thought of her when she turns his dates down. Sort of like how Sasuke left Sakura with a "Thank You" rather than simply knocking her out and going about his merry way.

Hmm... interesting how the scene typically reserved for Hinata's type of character [realizing the crush's true feelings for another, and backing down] actually applies to Naruto?


----------



## Nadini (Mar 15, 2009)

-snip-

Now how about giving concrete evidence of Sakura harboring her insignificant crush for Sasuke in part2?


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> So you're telling Naruto wasn't going to say hi to her ever?



Sorry, I apparently interpreted your last post wrong. The way I'd read it, it sounded like you were saying that he deliberately sought out Sakura to say hi to her. My bad.

Of course he's going to say hi to Sakura. She's one of his precious people, after all. But he didn't seek her out to say hi to her; he found her by chance in a street. Just like with Hinata.



> Well he noticed something why he loved Sakura and then it's now that Naruto was going to kiss her. He wasn't fanboying about it by the way.



He noticed something that he loved about Sakura. And I hope that there is something he loves about her if he wants to trick a kiss out of her.



> On a chapter cover in part 1 and i'll find it when i feel like to.



I am genuinely interested in seeing this... Do you remember which arc it was in, if you don't want to find it, and what part of that arc?


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Sorry, I apparently interpreted your last post wrong. The way I'd read it, it sounded like you were saying that he deliberately sought out Sakura to say hi to her. My bad.
> 
> Of course he's going to say hi to Sakura. She's one of his precious people, after all. But he didn't seek her out to say hi to her; he found her by chance in a street. Just like with Hinata.



Atleast Naruto and Sakura had a conversation you know.



> He noticed something that he loved about Sakura. And I hope that there is something he loves about her if he wants to trick a kiss out of her.



Well he wasn't really trying to trick to kiss her. He henged into Sasuke because he wanted to know what Sakura thinks about him so he didn't did this on purpose just to kiss her. Atleast he know why he loves Sakura. Which means isn't really a crush since he have a reason.




> I am genuinely interested in seeing this... Do you remember which arc it was in, if you don't want to find it, and what part of that arc?


----------



## Damaris (Mar 15, 2009)

nadini said:


> So pretty much the same old
> 
> "Naruto supports SasuSaku by letting go of his feelings in the PoaL"
> *"Sakura without a doubt loves Sasuke in part2 even with no mention of it"*
> ...



She doesn't need to mention it again. Sakura isn't going to trot down the street saying hello to people like: "Hi there Ino, btw, I'm still in love with Sasuke!"

She stated it in part 1. She confessed she loved him. Since then she has not said she no longer loves him. She has not said she loves Naruto instead of him. Until that happens (if it does) the default position is that she still loves him.


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## Nadini (Mar 15, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> She doesn't need to mention it again. Sakura isn't going to trot down the street saying hello to people like: "Hi there Ino, btw, I'm still in love with Sasuke!"
> 
> She stated it in part 1. She confessed she loved him. Since then she has not said she no longer loves him. She has not said she loves Naruto instead of him. Until that happens (if it does) the default position is that she still loves him.



So, by using that logic, Naruto is still in love with Sakura. ok


----------



## Damaris (Mar 15, 2009)

nadini said:


> So, by using that logic, Naruto is still in love with Sakura. ok



Except Naruto never confessed that he loved Sakura, or was willing to leave behind everything he ever knew to follow her. His feelings for her romantically weren't expanded on as a catalyst for his character like her feelings for Sasuke were. 

Sakura's fangirling crush turned into genuine love. Naruto's fanboying crush turned into....nothing except platonic friendship. In part 2 he still thinks she's attractive. If everyone who thought someone else was attractive was automatically in love with that person, it would be a very strange world. 

Naruto and Sakura are important to each other. They care about each other. But they have not had one explicitly romantic scene, except for when Naruto tried to kiss her. When Sakura thought he was Sasuke. In the very beginning of the manga. Yeah.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 15, 2009)

@general- Even if Sakura can still have romantic interest for Sasuke - doesn't mean she'll go to hell and back or sacrifice for him like Naruto would. The relationship isn't as deep to be done for such reasons as mere romance. She's doing a lot for Naruto as well. Someone who earned a lot more from her.



Erendhyl said:


> So far he's called her a babe, asked her out, wanted to kiss her, and fought to save her. None of that sounds unorthodox to me.



In the sense he is putting his feelings aside so he doesn't get hurt. Personally I don't think so..but that's because I'm a SasuNaru fan.



> What event are you referring to there? *serious question*



I'm referring to the fact that despite what Sasuke or Sakura means to him he puts her feelings in high regard! Whether that is romantic or not - it is selfless and highly mature!



kyuubi425 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Says who? Him? What disgusts me about the pairing is that Sasuke can't do one thing that doesn't look like a Poal to Sakura. He left her there saying he couldn't be like her or Naruto, showing that he also remembered the latter when she mentioned suffering loneliness out of love for him, never ONCE giving her any romantic predisposition! They were FRIENDS!


----------



## Nadini (Mar 15, 2009)

"Sakura doesn't think about sasuke in part2 outside of T7 context, but she's _oh so obviously_ in love with him still"

"Naruto doesn't pursue Sakura like leech anymore, but still asks her on dates and blushes near her means he doesn't like her romantically anymore"

.....

So, unless there's tears, angst and general shoujo shit that nobody besides 12-15 years old girls would read, there's nothing there?



Oh Wow... did someone create a new upside down dimension while i was asleep?



If people have a general opinion like that, i just witnessed a new level of stupid


@TenroL!

NO! You should only use the databook when its in your favor! ignore everything else that contradicts it 


@Mod
Did you have to delete that bit in my last post?

Was it really necessary..?
God forbid someone says the truth and someone gets their delicate feelings hurt


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> Except Naruto never confessed that he loved Sakura, or was willing to leave behind everything he ever knew to follow her. His feelings for her romantically weren't expanded on as a catalyst for his character like her feelings for Sasuke were.




No in chapter 3 he said why he loved Sakura



> Sakura's fangirling crush turned into genuine love. Naruto's fanboying crush turned into....nothing except platonic friendship. In part 2 he still thinks she's attractive. If everyone who thought someone else was attractive was automatically in love with that person, it would be a very strange world.



genuine love?  Kishi said her pursuit was selfish. And DB3 stated she only had a feeling similar to love not actual love.


PS: i loves using databook. My new Bible


----------



## Bellville (Mar 15, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> Except Naruto never confessed that he loved Sakura, or was willing to leave behind everything he ever knew to follow her. His feelings for her romantically weren't expanded on as a catalyst for his character like her feelings for Sasuke were.
> 
> Sakura's fangirling crush turned into genuine love.* Naruto's fanboying crush turned into....nothing except platonic friendship.* In part 2 he still thinks she's attractive. If everyone who thought someone else was attractive was automatically in love with that person, it would be a very strange world.
> 
> Naruto and Sakura are important to each other. They care about each other. But they have not had one explicitly romantic scene, except for when Naruto tried to kiss her. When Sakura thought he was Sasuke. In the very beginning of the manga. Yeah.


 How do you know this? I'm sorry, but i find it ridiculous that you can say "Sakura said she loved Sasuke in part 1 before he left her, therefore because she hasn't refuted those feelings, she still loves him" as simply as that. You don't think too hard about how she may have changed since then when it comes to love, because that's more convenient for you.

However, you come up with all of these in depth theories of how Naruto doesn't love her, and why that is, and because there is no confession he only thinks of her as a friend.

What a load of Bullshit. I'm out.


----------



## Damaris (Mar 15, 2009)

nadini said:


> "Sakura doesn't think about sasuke in part2 outside of T7 context, but she's _oh so obviously_ in love with him still"
> 
> "Naruto doesn't pursue Sakura like leech anymore, but still asks her on dates and blushes near her means he doesn't like her romantically anymore"
> 
> ...



If you call this: Durability

asking someone on a date....

Not even to mention Sakura's reaction.

That isn't sincere feeling that is being attracted to someone. Attraction is not love. I think of some of my guy friends are cute. This does not mean I love them.





Tenrol said:


> No in chapter 3 he said why he loved Sakura
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In chapter three. Chapter three. Over four hundred chapters ago. Before he really knew her at all, before they grew together as a team, that still stands as grounds for romantic feelings.

Wow.



Bellville said:


> How do you know this? I'm sorry, but i find it ridiculous that you can say "Sakura said she loved Sasuke in part 1 before he left her, therefore because she hasn't refuted those feelings, she still loves him" as simply as that. You don't think too hard about how she may have changed since then when it comes to love, because that's more convenient for you.
> 
> However, you come up with all of these in depth theories of how Naruto doesn't love her, and why that is, and because there is no confession he only thinks of her as a friend.
> 
> What a load of Bullshit. I'm out.



This is a work of fiction, not real life. In real life would her feelings have changed? Maybe.

But this is a story. There was a reason for that confession, and a reason for her not to mention those feelings changing.

As people are fond of saying this ~isn't~ a shojou. It's a shounen. A confession holds more weight than panel time together.


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> No in chapter 3 he said why he loved Sakura



The only translation I've found with the word 'love' in it was Viz's, and I've already explained that one. Everywhere else, it's said 'like'. Liking someone is not the same as loving them.



> genuine love?  Kishi said her pursuit was selfish. And DB3 stated she only had a feeling similar to love not actual love.



He said her pursuit was selfish... in a section of comments that appeared in chapter 25. In chapter 25, her pursuit of Sasuke was entirely selfish and childish. What Marina Ismail said was that her crush _matured_ into genuine love.

Also, do you have a link to wherever you found that databook? I'd like to read it.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> The only translation I've found with the word 'love' in it was Viz's, and I've already explained that one. Everywhere else, it's said 'like'. Liking someone is not the same as loving them.



Well he liked her enough to kiss her then. And according to Viz he loved something enough to kiss her as well





> He said her pursuit was selfish... in a section of comments that appeared in chapter 25. In chapter 25, her pursuit of Sasuke was entirely selfish and childish. What Marina Ismail said was that her crush _matured_ into genuine love.



Pff even her confession was selfish.



> Also, do you have a link to wherever you found that databook? I'd like to read it.




I have the translation. But if you want to the the raw then try to find some here To be fair Naruto was restricted. 



> From Sakura's chara page, "Naruto" section:
> "Since when she was a child Sakura had always felt admiration and a feeling similar to love for Sasuke. Naruto was just an "annoying" boy who stood in the middle between Sakura and Sasuke and disturbed their relationship. But after completing many missions together with him, she looked back at the past and finally realized: when she was in trouble, when she was ready to give up on her life, the one who was always there, protecting her and encouraging her, was in fact that "annoying" boy, Naruto. What are her current feelings for Naruto...? Sakura still hasn't found an answer."


----------



## Nadini (Mar 15, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> If you call this: Millions
> 
> asking someone on a date....
> 
> ...



I love it how you guys like taking things outta context(kinda like the FoD scenes, and the hug thing), i wont bother explaining here, a few words are more then enough:

Tsunade
Late
Important
Lazy Naruto
Apologetic Sakura




Marina Ismail said:


> In chapter three. Chapter three. Over four hundred chapters ago. Before he really knew her at all, before they grew together as a team, that still stands as grounds for romantic feelings.
> 
> Wow.



181, over 250 chapters ago, like.. wow..
and a failed confession to boot..




Marina Ismail said:


> As people are fond of saying this ~isn't~ a shojou. It's a shounen. A confession holds more weight than panel time together.



Clearly, because it suits you, that's why Hinata is best friends with Naruto, and Sakura is constantly on Sasuke's mind 


No.. sorry dear.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> In chapter three. Chapter three. Over four hundred chapters ago. Before he really knew her at all, before they grew together as a team, that still stands as grounds for romantic feelings.
> 
> Wow.



In chapter 3 he said why he loved her. And he didn't said anything about not loving her anymore


----------



## Damaris (Mar 15, 2009)

nadini said:


> I love it how you guys like taking things outta context(kinda like the FoD scenes, and the hug thing), i wont bother explaining here, a few words are more then enough:
> 
> Tsunade
> Late
> ...



You would think if she really "loved" Naruto, she wouldn't blow up and call him a dumbass. She might be a LITTLE kinder and say something like "No, we'll be late!"

But wait, she's just treating him like one treats a friend who said the wrong thing.

Oops.

Over 250 chapters ago....after they actually developed together as characters and a team.

I would like for someone to point out where I said either of these things.


----------



## Karmillina (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well he liked her enough to kiss her then. And according to Viz he loved something enough to kiss her as well



You don't need to love someone to try to kiss them. 

Remember they were 12 year olds with silly shallow crushes and hormones probably at their peak? Puberty anyone? The difference is that Naruto's crush never passed from comic relief. Sakura's feelings transformed into pure devotion and genuine romantic care. And Naruto accepted that.

As a side note, he tricked her so she would kiss him ;D Sakura was thinking about Sasuke, because she saw Sasuke there. I don't see where's the Shocking NaruSaku Proof (TM) in that scene. He tricked her and she thought she would kiss someone else. Heck, they didn't even kiss because he had got diarrhea, or something, and had to run.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Karmillina said:


> You don't need to love someone to try to kiss them.
> 
> Remember they were 12 year olds with silly shallow crushes and hormones probably at their peak? Puberty anyone? The difference is that Naruto's crush never passed from comic relief. Sakura's feelings transformed into pure devotion and genuine romantic care. And Naruto accepted that.



Well Naruto said why he loved Sakura then he was gonna try to kiss her so no.

And Sakura feelings is selfish and like i said the databook said she only had a similar love to Sasuke.


----------



## Nadini (Mar 15, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> You would think if she really "loved" Naruto, she wouldn't blow up and call him a dumbass. She might be a LITTLE kinder and say something like "No, we'll be late!"
> 
> But wait, she's just treating him like one treats a friend who said the wrong thing.
> 
> ...



Direct translation:

"IDIOT!" 
"Tsunade-sama is calling us"

Read the next page as well, notice Sakura's behavior, her obvious priority was getting a date, right?

Really? Did they?
And still sakura herself admits that Sasuke doesn't talk to her, even after they developed as characters and a team.

You said, "A confession holds more weight then mutual paneltime"

I said bullshit, because that crap works in your favor..


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well Naruto said why he loved Sakura then he was gonna try to kiss her so no.
> 
> And Sakura feelings is selfish and like i said the databook said she only had a similar love to Sasuke.



In chapter 3 I don't think either Naruto's or Sakura's romantic feelings could be called love.  They both clearly fangirled/boyed over their respective crushes.


----------



## Karmillina (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well Naruto said why he loved Sakura then he was gonna try to kiss her so no.
> 
> And Sakura feelings is selfish and like i said the databook said she only had a similar love to Sasuke.



Not love. Like. Like.

What databook? Can you quote me to it? Because As far as I know, "devotion" can't be called selfish. What I've seen in regards of Sakura's character development and feelings towards Sasuke can't be called a "selfish crush".

Nadini, if you won't reply to an argument with something other than "bullshit", it means you have nothing good to say to counter it. this is not shoujo manga, romance is not the priority. Kishimoto won't spend countless pages of comic relief so it the end it's all tr00wub, disregarding completely two absolutely serious, no-comic relief confessions.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> In chapter 3 I don't think either Naruto's or Sakura's romantic feelings could be called love.  They both clearly fangirled/boyed over their respective crushes.




Well when he said why he loved Sakura he was really fanboying if you ask me. Ateast he have a reason you know unlike Sakura.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> And Sakura feelings is selfish and like i said the databook said she only had a similar love to Sasuke.


 
So all of her feelings for Sasuke, and _all the actions relative_, were selfish?

Seriously?


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Karmillina said:


> Not love. Like. Like.
> 
> What databook? Can you quote me to it? Because As far as I know, "devotion" can't be called selfish.




In the Viz translation He said he know what he love about Sakura. And yeah like like i said he liked her enough to kiss her duh 


About databook just check my previous post i quoted it there.




Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> So all of her feelings for Sasuke, and _all the actions relative_, were selfish?
> 
> Seriously?



Her pursuit was.


----------



## Damaris (Mar 15, 2009)

nadini said:


> You said, "A confession holds more weight then mutual paneltime"
> 
> I said bullshit, because that crap works in your favor..



And I say you say bullshit because that crap doesn't work in your favor...

See how easy that was? I didn't even have to think of an argument.

I really want to know. How does Sakura confessing her love to Sasuke count less than endless panels of Sakura and Naruto...talking about Sasuke?


----------



## Karmillina (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> In the Viz translation He said he know what he love about Sakura. And yeah like like i said he liked her enough to kiss her duh



Viz translation, the least trustworthy source in the earth. The Viz translation has a lot of mistakes. Get a hold of the original japanese lines and ask someone the difference between "like" and "love".


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well when he said why he loved Sakura he was really fanboying if you ask me. Ateast he have a reason you know unlike Sakura.



Again, I don't think it was love at that point.  A crush?  Yes.  Anything approaching Sakura's confession in 181?  No.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Or Hinata's in 437?  No.




I'm sure a SasuSaku fan can answer for Sakura's feelings, but:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata gave quite a few powerful reasons for why she loves Naruto, quite a few more than his supposed basis for liking Sakura.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Karmillina said:


> Viz translation, the least trustworthy source in the earth. The Viz translation has a lot of mistakes. Get a hold of the original japanese lines and ask someone the difference between "like" and "love".



Viz = official.

kthxbai



moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I never mentionned Hinata


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> I never mentionned Hinata



Yeah, but she has quite a stake in this argument too, don't you think?


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> In the Viz translation He said he know what he love about Sakura. And yeah like like i said he liked her enough to kiss her duh



Loving something about a person is different from being in love with a person.


> *Originally posted by me, two pages ago*
> When has Naruto ever said that he loves Sakura? In chapter 3, Viz's translation said "I'm finally starting to understand what I love about Sakura." The 'about' is the key word. Loving a characteristic of someone doesn't mean that you love that someone. What I love about my best friend is that we share the same interests. What I love about my parents is that they're good people. That doesn't mean that I love them (romantically). Heck, I've loved some attribute of every guy I've ever had a crush on, but that does not mean that my feelings for them were ever more than just a crush. Just because Naruto said here that he loved something about Sakura didn't mean that he actually loved her.



Sorry for the laziness, but I really didn't want to type that out again less than six hours later.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Her pursuit was.


 
Enlighten me on the difference. "Actions relative to love for Sasuke" and "romantic pursuit [of Sasuke]" aren't the same?


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Loving something about a person is different from being in love with a person.



He loves something about her which is the reason why he loves her. Or he could have just said like if he didn't loves her.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> *In chapter 3 he said why he loved her.* And he didn't said anything about not loving her anymore



He loved her so much she was willing to trick her into kissing him.

How romantic.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 15, 2009)

@Tenrol: "Indeed"?

I would like to know how posing as Sasuke to trick Sakura into kissing Naruto is love. ^


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> @Tenrol: "Indeed"?
> 
> I would like to know how posing as Sasuke to trick Sakura into kissing Naruto is love. ^



Doesn't change the fact that he said why he loved her. But i agree with you that tricking peuple is bad but he was still just a kid let him a chance.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Doesn't change the fact that he said why he loved her. But i agree with you that tricking peuple is bad but he was still just a kid let him a chance.



He said that's why he _liked_ her. Look up the definition of "suki". 

At that point _both_ Naruto and Sakura's crushes were beyond immature. Tricking somebody, using their feelings for somebody else to deceive them is _not_ love.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 15, 2009)

Histeria said:


> He didn't try to deceive her.
> 
> The kiss was coincidental.
> 
> ...



True, he wanted to know what she thought of him.

But I doubt that kiss was coincidental.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> He said that's why he _liked_ her. Look up the definition of "suki".



Viz = love

and btw, Suki is what japanese peuple use the most to say when they loves someone.



> posted byShounenSuki
> That's a far more difficult question than you might think.
> 
> The most basic answer would be "aishite iru" (愛している).
> ...


_ You can tell Sakura isn't part of his family 




			that point both Naruto and Sakura's crushes were beyond immature. Tricking somebody, using their feelings for somebody else to deceive them is not love.
		
Click to expand...


At first he just henged into Sasuke because he wanted to know what Sakura thinks about him he didn't had the intention to kiss her._


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 15, 2009)

Histeria said:


> He didn't try to deceive her.



Even if he wasn't originally planning to kiss her, he was still deceiving her by using a Henge to appear as Sasuke.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 15, 2009)

Histeria said:


> He didn't try to deceive her.
> 
> The kiss was coincidental.
> 
> ...



Eh... the moment he henged as Sasuke to talk to her and compliment her he _was_ deceiving her. 

Letting himself be kissed while he pretends to be Sasuke is using her feelings to get what he wants. I thought it was obvious.



Tenrol said:


> Viz = love



*sigh*



> Basically, it's far too strong an expression. Love isn't that often expressed through words in Japanese culture. If affection is expressed, they usually use the less strong "suki [desu]" (好き[です]), which is usually translated *as " like [you]".*_ This is *also* quite appropriate to use for family, by the way.
> _


_

You should read before you post. Thanks for saving time, though! 



Tenrol said:



			and btw, Suki is what japanese peuple use the most to say when they loves someone.
		
Click to expand...


...No. That's "daisuki"._


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol, still waiting for the answer to my question:




> Enlighten me on the difference. "Actions relative to love for Sasuke" and "romantic pursuit [of Sasuke]" aren't the same?


 
What she does in romantic pursuit of him isn't relative to her love for him?


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 15, 2009)

> Yes it was.
> 
> It didn't even cross his mind, Sakura took the advance.
> He was caught up in the heat of the moment, because *he likes her*, after all.



I definately agree with these.


----------



## Kairi (Mar 15, 2009)

Random appearances ftw.


Histeria said:


> He didn't try to deceive her.
> 
> The kiss was coincidental.
> 
> He only wanted to know what she thinks of him.



Really? Because, if he wasn't, he would have went up to her in his real untransformed self and asked her. He deceived her by looking like Sasuke, he knew what he was doing.

The kiss was intentional on Sakura's part, she leaned in to kiss him on purpose, and Naruto also knew what was going on.


----------



## Kek (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> At first he just henged into Sasuke because he wanted to know what Sakura thinks about him he didn't had the intention to kiss her.



Since Hysteria deleted his/her post...

I didn't see Naruto trying to stop Sakura. 
Besides, Naruto was deceiving Sakura regardless of his originl intentions.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Tenrol, still waiting for the answer to my question:
> 
> 
> 
> What she does in romantic pursuit of him isn't relative to her love for him?



I won't answer this question sadly. love = too complicate.



Kek said:


> Since Hysteria deleted his/her post...
> 
> I didn't see Naruto trying to stop Sakura.
> Besides, Naruto was deceiving Sakura regardless of his originl intentions.



so?


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> I won't answer this question sadly. love = too complicate.


 
The question is incredibly simple. =/ 
Was every action of Sakura's affection for Sasuke selfish, or not?


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> ...No. That's "daisuki".




That's not what ShounenSuki think. He said they usually use *suki*



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> The question is incredibly simple. =/
> Was every action of Sakura's affection for Sasuke selfish, or not?



If you mean every action like Sakura protecting Sasuke from Garaa?  of course not.


----------



## The Duchess (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> This is shounen, I really doubt the amount of chapters you say they need for 'development' is required.  Hell, Asuma/Kurenai is canon and they appeared what like three times together in Part 1?  Besides, they have development stretching all the way back to the written chuunin exam.
> Also, Naruto is notorious for quickly making bonds- a single conversation can do the trick.


Are you seriously telling me that Naruto needs to fall in love with her within a conversation?



moonjump05 said:


> There is still alot of material in the manga to cover, however like the above post I don't think a massive amount of time or panel space is required to develop NaruHina.  Besides, we might get a Hyuuga presence when those Cloud ninja come.


Again, why would all the bonding between Naruto and Sakura be thrown away after a couple of panels of "Hinata, I love you!1!"? I've heard people complain over and over that Kishi is a crappy writer, but there's no way he'd pull off something like that.



moonjump05 said:


> Well, it does go to show that his romantic feelings are not all that strong for Sakura.  I don't see the pressing issue here.


Asuma nor Kurenai openly declared love for each, yet Kurenai's expecting. I don't see how confessions always have to mean that the person's serious about how they feel about someone.



moonjump05 said:


> Why is Sakura pretending to get closer to Naruto?  We _know _she has.  The greater part of Part 2 is their strengthening bond.


I was being facetious about the pretending.



moonjump05 said:


> The question is really if that closeness has a romantic instigation, which doesn't seem to be the case.


That's highly debatable. Sai's noticed that bond, and says "You're rather gentle with Naruto, aren't you?" Didn't Shikamaru's father say that even the most rough woman is gentle with the one she loves? You make the connections. I'm pretty sure that scene (which is often overlooked) with Shikamaru and his dad wasn't put there for no reason at all.



ironblade_x1 said:


> That sounds awfully like extreme NaruSaku/SasuHina talk.


Err, I'm not a SH shipper at all. Just FYI.



ironblade_x1 said:


> To answer you: No. That's terribly cliche, poor writing, and would undoubtedly raise the ire of the majority of Naruto's readers/viewers.


Like Hinata's confession hasn't already?



ironblade_x1 said:


> And to be honest, I could raise you the same point. For exactly how many panels can you honestly tell me there's been a possibly romance-leaning interaction between Naruto and Sakura in Part II? From my count, it's been 3-4 scenes that have been blown out of proportion (not being picky here, it's the same for every other ship) and held up as canonical proof. They're all the same.


Which scenes are you referring to?



ironblade_x1 said:


> It won't take 100 chapters to develop a relationship. Hell, it might not even take 5. And while this ending would suck for a majority of people, the easy out would  be simply to have several short dialogues between the two as the manga/anime rounds out and to tie it all off with an epilogue, where everyone's happy and no one knows what happened.


So first NH shippers are angry because others are assuming they (the NH shippers) want Naruto to fall in love with her instantly, and now it turns out that NH supporters _do_ think that Naruto should fall in love with her right now?

Doesn't Kishimoto get a say in this? Or even Naruto, for that matter?



> NaruHina getting together doesn't necessarily make SasuSaku automatic. Good 'ol Lee still loves his cherry blossom


Sure it doesn't, but that's the popular opinion around here. 



> And this manga's hardly coming to a close. The amount of plot lines still flailing ensures at least another 4-5 long arcs, maybe more, assuming they don't all somehow tie together.


Ok, so where does the tru lub of NH canoness come into play?



> And to make a final point, if SasuSaku were to happen, as their relationship stands now it's impossible. But since it's pretty unlikely that they'll never talk again for the rest of the manga, I'll leave that up to time.


Of course they're gonna talk again. Does that mean that Sakura's going to suddenly remember all the times she was in love with him, and that Sasuke's going to fall in love with her?



SasuraHime said:


> What makes you think Sakura is only pretending to get closer to Naruto? Where are you getting this information?
> In Shippuuden, Sakura has been much quieter about any remaining _romantic_ feelings she still has for Sasuke. So how do you know that she still really wants to be with him? And even if she did, that doesn't mean she can't also develop a deeper bond with Naruto, romantic or otherwise. Maybe I'm missing your point?


Again, I was being facetious.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> If you mean every action like Sakura protecting Sasuke from Garaa?  of course not.


 
If you need to add a flippant cookie-monster after every line, you need to specify if you're being sarcastic or not.

If you were being serious, you would be shooting your own statement in the foot.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> That's not what ShounenSuki think. He said they usually use *suki*



Do you even _read _what you post?



> Basically, it's far too strong an expression. Love isn't that often expressed through words in Japanese culture. If *affection* is expressed, they usually use the less strong "suki [desu]" (好き[です]), *which is usually translated as " like [you]".*_ This is also quite appropriate to use for family, by the way._


_

I think it's clear enough._


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> Do you even _read _what you post?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's clear enough.



I do




> Basically, it's far too strong an expression. Love isn't that often expressed through words in Japanese culture. If affection is expressed, they usually use the less strong "suki [desu]" (好き[です]), which is usually translated as "_ like [you]". This is also quite appropriate to use for family, by the way.
> _


_

The question of that thread was how do you say love in *Japanese/kanji* and then shounensuki said they usually use the less strong suki to express their love._


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> I do



Doesn't look like it.



Tenrol said:


> The question of that thread was how do you say love in *Japanese/kanji* and then shounensuki said they usually use the less strong suki to express their love.



Suki is used to express _affection_, not romantic love. The person who wrote the explanation made it clear.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> Doesn't look like it.







Love isn't that often expressed through words in in Japanese culture BUT if it is expressed they will usually use suki. i believe he was talking about love

BTW, even if it's just affection..affection is a synonym of love


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Love isn't that often expressed through words in in Japanese culture BUT if it is expressed they will usually use suki. i believe he was talking about love
> 
> BTW, even if it's just affection..affection is a synonym of love Link removed



*sigh*

But not _romantic_ love. _Like_ is a form of love, you know?


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> *sigh*
> 
> But not _romantic_ love. _Like_ is a form of love, you know?



Yeah but Naruto said that when he was gonna kiss her. so it was somewhat romantic if you ask me.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Yeah but Naruto said that when he gonna kiss her. so it was somewhat romantic if you ask me.



For Christs sake. Are you in love with every person you wish you could kiss?


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> Are you seriously telling me that Naruto needs to fall in love with her within a conversation?



No, my point is that Naruto can easily change his opinion of someone quickly, and that a 100 chapters is not needed to do this.  If Naruto does fall in love with her I would expect it to take place over the rest of the manga.  



> ]Again, why would all the bonding between Naruto and Sakura be thrown away after a couple of panels of "Hinata, I love you!1!"? I've heard people complain over and over that Kishi is a crappy writer, but there's no way he'd pull off something like that.



Who said that Naruto and Sakura's bond has to be thrown away?  They clearly have an admirable friendship that I don't think should be tossed to the side, and see no reason why it would have to.  The question is if their bonding is romantic in nature which is arguable I suppose, but I haven't seen it happening that way.  They've grown closer, yes, but not romantically. 




> ]Asuma nor Kurenai openly declared love for each, yet Kurenai's expecting. I don't see how confessions always have to mean that the person's serious about how they feel about someone.



Considering Asuma and Kurenai are supporting characters of the previous generation, I don't know where a confession of love between them would even be needed nor expected.

Confessions do go a long way in telling us how the character feels, but isn't the end all be all.  The thing is that Naruto doesn't take his romantic feelings for Sakura seriously, so I have so reason to do so either.




> That's highly debatable. Sai's noticed that bond, and says "You're rather gentle with Naruto, aren't you?" Didn't Shikamaru's father say that even the most rough woman is gentle with the one she loves? You make the connections. I'm pretty sure that scene (which is often overlooked) with Shikamaru and his dad wasn't put there for no reason at all.



I've had this conversation with you before, however I do think that Shikamaru and his Dad's scene was for _ShikaTema_.  Shikaku has no reason to comment on Sakura.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> I've had this conversation with you before, however I do think that Shikamaru and his Dad's scene was for _ShikaTema_.  Shikaku has no reason to comment on Sakura.




Yeah but Shikamaru was talking about Sakura and Ino. And after Shikaku was talking about them.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Yeah but Shikamaru was talking about Sakura and Ino. And after Shikaku was talking about them.



So Shikaku ships ShikaSaku and ShikaIno?

IIRC, Shikamaru was complaining about the girls and then Shikaku made his comment.  Cue segway to Temari smiling tenderly at Shikamaru.  The comment was for _Shikamaru_.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 15, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> So Shikaku ships ShikaSaku and ShikaIno?


 If only Shikmaru had a bond with Sakura in the time. But maybe Ino who knows?




> IIRC, Shikamaru was complaining about the girls and then Shikaku made his comment.  Cue segway to Temari smiling tenderly at Shikamaru.  The comment was for _Shikamaru_.



Shikamaru was complaining about girls like Sakura and Ino he even had them in the background. ... But Temari is more or less like them as well.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 16, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> When did Kishimoto say that it was selfish? (That's a serious question--the only interviews that I ever hear about are through forums.) Also, what did you mean by the second sentence? I ask because you said "love not love", which I assume was a typo. (I've never seen the data books either.)



See nobody responded to this question yet.  Kishimoto said that Sakura was pursuing a "selfish love" in his _Naruto_ Notes that came with Chapter 25.

Link removed




Erendhyl said:


> I wasn't trying to use it as an argument. I was trying to point out that it was faulty where it was used as an argument earlier in this thread to say that Hinata and Naruto could not have a connection because they hadn't seen each other in two years.
> 
> Within seven panels of Naruto and Sakura's reunion, she has the little manga-three-lines-of-anger mark. Within 25, she's already hitting him. That's not a much better reunion than what Naruto and Hinata had.



And if you recall before she got ticked off, she was deeply impressed with his maturity.  Hell, she was even blushing.  



Erendhyl said:


> I am not arguing that he had affection for her. What I am arguing is the depth of that affection. Wanting to kiss someone, asking them out, hearts, and lighting up can mean either lust or love, and it is never specifically clarified which Naruto felt for Sakura.



Given the events so far in the manga, nobody Pro nor Anti Pairings can say one pairing's affection is greater than another.

The race is still on!  



Erendhyl said:


> Saving her life is different. That shows that he actually feels something real and genuine for her. But why does it have to be love? During the entire fight of Naruto vs. Gaara (which I think is what you're referring to--if not, please say so), he never said anything about wanting to save Sakura because he loved her. He just said that he wanted to save her. She was his comrade and she was going to die if he didn't do something--of course he wanted to save her! He kept saying "I will save Sakura-chan" and not "I will save Sakura-chan and Sasuke" because _Sakura_ was the one who was being squeezed to death.
> 
> Later on in the fight, Sasuke was able to move enough to jump between Naruto and the tree after Naruto used his Thousand Years of Pain. Sasuke would have been able to run away at that point if Naruto had failed. Sakura needed Naruto to win or else she would die.



You're not looking at the entire picture.  If Naruto was doing it out of comradery, then Kishimoto wouldn't have the Toads do their commentary about Naruto's affection for Sakura.

In Chapter 131, Naruto was focused solely on saving Sakura (even before Sasuke asked him to in Chapter 133).   Heck, Naruto's awakening happened out of "protecting your precious someones".

And after the fight, his only thought was Sakura.   Gaara even said that's why Naruto was so strong, because it was love that powered him.


Also, let's not forget when Sasuke told Sakura it was Naruto who saved her.   She was thankful, to which changed her opinion of Naruto for the better.   Where she started thinking of Naruto highly as someone she can count on. 

But you know, that's the funny thing about Kishi, thoughout the manga it's not only the strongest who wins, but the most clever.  Do you choose someone you had a crush on?  Or do you go with the one whose always been at your side, risking their life for your sake?


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 16, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> See nobody responded to this question yet.  Kishimoto said that Sakura was pursuing a "selfish love" in his _Naruto_ Notes that came with Chapter 25.
> 
> his



Yeah chapter 25,( where is that?  somewhere in the Wave country arc?) it's not like Sakura developed a deeper and more mature understanding of Sasuke since then, you know.  It's not like the Chuuin exams or PoaL happened afterwards. 






> And if you recall before she got ticked off, she was deeply impressed with his maturity.  Hell, she was even blushing.



Only to be proven wrong two seconds later.





> Given the events so far in the manga, nobody Pro nor Anti Pairings can say one pairing's affection is greater than another.
> 
> The race is still on!



That's not true.  You can say that certain characters romantic feelings for certain other characters are stronger than others.





> You're not looking at the entire picture.  If Naruto was doing it out of comradery, then Kishimoto wouldn't have the Toads do their commentary about Naruto's affection for Sakura.
> 
> In Chapter 131, Naruto was focused solely on saving Sakura (even before Sasuke asked him to in Chapter 133).   Heck, Naruto's awakening happened out of "protecting your precious someones".
> 
> And after the fight, his only thought was Sakura.   Gaara even said that's why Naruto was so strong, because it was love that powered him.



Concerning the Gaara fight:
I think that the primary goal of that fight was to show Naruto's foil Gaara that having precious people is not impossible and it doesn't make one weak.  It was about Naruto proving his way of thinking- the Will of Fire to be specific- in typical shounen sense of beating it into him.  This fight is backdropped by saving Sakura and Sasuke, by having the Third protecting the village from Orochimaru, by having many Konoha ninja fighting the Sound and Suna ninja.  His crush on Sakura is mentioned, but it is not the focus- it's protecting those important to you.




> Also, let's not forget when Sasuke told Sakura it was Naruto who saved her.   She was thankful, to which changed her opinion of Naruto for the better.   Where she started thinking of Naruto highly as someone she can count on.



Sakura didn't believe that Naruto saved her at first.  And of course she was thankful, he saved her life!




> But you know, that's the funny thing about Kishi, thoughout the manga it's not only the strongest who wins, but the most clever.  Do you choose someone you had a crush on?  Or do you go with the one whose always been at your side, risking their life for your sake?



Well you know Naruto has a crush on Sakura and:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata has just risked her life for Naruto's sake.




The same arguement can be used for nearly every pairing on this thread.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 16, 2009)

I wish Anti-NaruSaku would stop being paradoxical - it makes me sick being of the same stance to read such contradictory pairing rubbish.



Marina Ismail said:


> In chapter three. Chapter three. Over four hundred chapters ago. Before he really knew her at all, before they grew together as a team, that still stands as grounds for romantic feelings.
> 
> Wow.



Naruto has always expressed care and interest in Sakura. But she was sentimentally occupied, unlike Sasuke who didn't appear to fawn on anyone except his bestfriend  Why should he confess if he understands what she feels? You guys contradict your logic too much.



> This is a work of fiction, not real life. In real life would her feelings have changed? Maybe.
> 
> But this is a story. There was a reason for that confession, and a reason for her not to mention those feelings changing.
> 
> As people are fond of saying this ~isn't~ a shojou. It's a shounen. A confession holds more weight than panel time together.



This isn't real life so Naruto's feelings aren't true love cos like any other guy in the series he hasn't confessed despite holding evident interest up till recently..

Naruto has a lot on his mind. And SasuNaru is considered invalid to Big 3 logic - therefore accordingly he is repressing deeper feelings for her as Poal would assume [] Sakura has had significant development with Naruto - he may be more important to her than Sasuke even if she doesn't love him romantically.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 16, 2009)

A question to most of the Anti-NaruSaku fans in this debate.

If Naruto likes a person that much, that he risks his own life regardless of the risks, and actually disguises himself so he could steal a kiss from Sakura, is this not love? He was a prankster, and he used his pranking skills to get that close to a person that he had his eye on for a long, long time. That, is Naruto trying to get involved with Sakura in a romantic way. This however, does not mean that it is the same way for Sakura.
Latest developments have shown us a barrage of information; but my opinion still stands. Sakura went from hating Naruto, to liking him, to respecting him, to becoming her person to trust, to become her person to rely on, and finally, last in this story; her most precious person.

On the other hand, Hinata doing that confession means that it is canon. There is no real need to wait another few chapters, as it is oh so obvious that Naruto feels obligated to respond to Hinata's desperate and selfish plea in a positive way.

Sometimes, double-standards confuse me, and as such, I have skipped trough most of the content in this thread.

Gents, please. Assumptions will get us no where. I bid you farewel.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 16, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> A question to most of the Anti-NaruSaku fans in this debate.
> 
> If Naruto likes a person that much, that he risks his own life regardless of the risks, and actually disguises himself so he could steal a kiss from Sakura, is this not love?



No. I thought that was obvious. 

Deceiving somebody in order to get what you want is _not_ love. That's like saying that if somebody likes a person so much he is willing to blindfold her and have sex with her while she thinks he is somebody else, is that not love? Differences aside, is practically the same argument.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> He was a prankster, and he used his pranking skills to get that close to a person that he had his eye on for a long, long time. That, is Naruto trying to get involved with Sakura in a romantic way. This however, does not mean that it is the same way for Sakura.



That's not an excuse. What he did was wrong. It was not love. Naruto would never do that now, because I'm sure he loves (which doesn't mean he _is in love_) Sakura enough to respect her feelings.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Latest developments have shown us a barrage of information; but my opinion still stands. Sakura went from hating Naruto, to liking him, to respecting him, to becoming her person to trust, to become her person to rely on, and finally, last in this story; her most precious person.



Sakura has _two_ most precious person, I don't know why people like to forget this.

Yes, Sakura cares about him, I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean she is in love with him.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> On the other hand, Hinata doing that confession means that it is canon.



The only thing that Hinata's confession made canon is her love for Naruto. Period.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> There is no real need to wait another few chapters, as it is oh so obvious that Naruto feels obligated to respond to Hinata's desperate and selfish plea in a positive way.



Obligated? No. I already said he has no obligation to love her back. He _can_ give her a chance, but that doesn't mean he _will_.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Sometimes, double-standards confuse me, and as such, I have skipped trough most of the content in this thread.


----------



## Saunion (Mar 16, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> No. I thought that was obvious.
> 
> Deceiving somebody in order to get what you want is _not_ love. That's like saying that if somebody likes a person so much he is willing to blindfold her and have sex with her while she thinks he is somebody else, is that not love? Differences aside, is practically the same argument.



Oh? But I thought "love makes you do stupid things", which is the excuse I've read many times to try and excuse Sakura being ready to betray her village and friends to follow Sasuke.

But in Naruto's case, if he does something stupid to approach a girl he'd never have a chance with in normal circumstances, it doesn't show he's in love with her, but just has some kind of selfish rapist lust for her?

It never stops


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 16, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> No. I thought that was obvious.
> 
> Deceiving somebody in order to get what you want is _not_ love. That's like saying that if somebody likes a person so much he is willing to blindfold her and have sex with her while she thinks he is somebody else, is that not love? Differences aside, is practically the same argument.



So Naruto craving for a kiss of Sakura is not loving her, but someone that just hears that someone else is in love with him, is love? Of course, Naruto must love this person back, it is only destiny.



> That's not an excuse. What he did was wrong. It was not love. Naruto would never do that now, because I'm sure he loves (which doesn't mean he _is in love_) Sakura enough to respect her feelings.



I never said it was _right_, I merely said what is true, Naruto wanted a kiss from Sakura. I don't think we need to question how much he loves her over Hinata.
And no, he wouldn't do that now. The kid has matured and noticed that Sakura is still devastated because Sasuke has left the village.



> Sakura has _two_ most precious person, I don't know why people like to forget this.



Yes, she has. I was merely pointing out what an evolution their relationship went trough.



> Yes, Sakura cares about him, I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean she is in love with him.



I was only predicting, not saying it *is* like that.



> The only thing that Hinata's confession made canon is her love for Naruto. Period.


Well, finally. I hear otherwise from many other fans, sorry for this misunderstanding.



> Obligated? No. I already said he has no obligation to love her back. He _can_ give her a chance, but that doesn't mean he _will_.



But why would he _give_ her a chance if he doesn't feel obligated to do so?

                            .


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 16, 2009)

Saunion said:


> Oh? But I thought "love makes you do stupid things", which is the excuse I've read many times to try and excuse Sakura being ready to betray her village and friends to follow Sasuke.



Yes, I can see how deceiving a girl into kissing you is exactly like leaving everyone behind in a desperate attempt to be with the guy you love.

Never said Sakura trying to leave was smart, btw. But thanks for assuming.



Saunion said:


> But in Naruto's case, if he does something stupid to approach a girl he'd never have a chance with in normal circumstances, it doesn't show he's in love with her, but just has some kind of selfish rapist lust for her?
> 
> It never stops



If you seriously believe deceiving somebody to get what you want is love... I wonder, had Sakura tried that with Sasuke... or Hinata with Naruto, would you call that love? 

At that point in time it was a crush. Naruto didn't even think about what Sakura would feel if she found out. 

I wonder what Sakura would say if she ever found out, though. She'll probably wet her pants with emotion. Hell, maybe she will be flattered! 



Kitsune Naruto said:


> So Naruto craving for a kiss of Sakura is not loving her



Are you in love with every person that you'd like to kiss?



Kitsune Naruto said:


> but someone that just hears that someone else is in love with him, is love?



From Hinata to Naruto, yes. I never said Naruto loves her back. I know, you ignored that. Let's bold it.

*I never said Naruto is in love with Hinata nor did I say he is obligated to love her back.*



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Of course, Naruto must love this person back, it is only destiny.



Thank you for completely ignoring the part where I said that Naruto is not obligated to love Hinata back. Again.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> I never said it was _right_, I merely said what is true, Naruto wanted a kiss from Sakura.



And that means he loves her? Sakura also wanted to kiss Sasuke at that time. Does that mean her feelings were more than a crush back then?



Kitsune Naruto said:


> I don't think we need to question how much he loves her over Hinata.



I must be using the invisible ink again, since I don't remember where I said Naruto loves Hinata more than he loves Sakura.

Feelings change, as you love to point out. But I guess Naruto eventually falling for Hinata is impossible.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> And no, he wouldn't do that now. The kid has matured and noticed that Sakura is still devastated because Sasuke has left the village.



...And he probably understands Sakura won't appreciate it if her best friend henged as somebody else in order to get a kiss.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Yes, she has. I was merely pointing out what an evolution their relationship went trough.



...I already knew that.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> I was only predicting, not saying it *is* like that.



Ah, we can predict all day long.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Well, finally. I hear otherwise from many other fans, sorry for this misunderstanding.



I lost count of the stupid things I heard from _all_ sides. 



Kitsune Naruto said:


> But why would he _give_ her a chance if he doesn't feel obligated to do so?



Because Naruto _may_ decide to give her a chance because that's how he is? Because he wants to?


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 16, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> Are you in love with every person that you'd like to kiss?
> 
> *Are you using that line every time this situation is used?*
> *No, but Naruto was still a teenager. God, this manga is not that complicated, okay?*
> ...


 Even if he doesn't have any romantic interest in her? Then again, he's such a nice guy to ignore his feelings for almost everybody.

I'm leaving this thread for a while again. x3
Bye Gab~ 

Let's chat in VM some time again


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 16, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Are you using that line every time this situation is used?



Nobody has answered it so far. 



Kitsune Naruto said:


> _No, but Naruto was still a teenager. _God, this manga is not that complicated, okay?



Duh. Naruto had a crush. He was not exactly mature about it.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Oh dear, I read it.



Didn't look like it. 



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Might have been, why? Sasuke still didn't like her one bit.



And Sakura didn't like Naruto one bit, so?



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Yes, you are. Produced in NH-land. -_-
> I'm only trying to make an argument while not sounding like I don't have evidence to back it up.




Well, you aren't. Stop assuming I believe Naruto will fall in love with Hinata just because she confessed.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> There's a little thing called development. I must redirect you to this.



And we know there is not time to develop it. I mean the manga will be over in the next 3 chapters, right?

Oh, wait...



Kitsune Naruto said:


> It would have made for another hilarious scene, I am sure of that.



Yeah, hilarious. 



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Lord, don't get me started. I've read the stupidest crap from NS, NH, SS and yes, even SasuNaru.



All fandoms have stupid theories.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Even if he doesn't have any romantic interest in her?



And that can't change because...?



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Then again, he's such a nice guy to ignore his feelings for almost everybody.



Naruto doesn't like pity.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 16, 2009)

I think you're arguing with the wrong person KN 

In the end there is no telling for sure whether Naruto is in love with Sakura ignoring SasuNaru or if Sakura's feelings will ever be mutually romantic with Naruto's. Personally I see them far from that since not even with Sasuke gone do they show the emotional need of each other that way. If it ever happened it would always look like a compromise to me.



> Naruto doesn't like pity.



Doesn't mean Hinata's gesture didn't make him feel bad.


----------



## Saunion (Mar 16, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> Yes, I can see how deceiving a girl into kissing you is exactly like leaving everyone behind in a desperate attempt to be with the guy you love.
> 
> Never said Sakura trying to leave was smart, btw. But thanks for assuming



I didn't say it was "exactly" alike, just that it was two stupid, negative moves, yet in one case it's used as a way to prove Naruto's childish crush (ok, makes sense), while in the other hand it's used as undeniable proof of the strength, maturity and beauty of Sakura's feelings... What?

And the worst is, Naruto did that in chapter 3... Sakura's pathetic plead, begging, bargaining and attempt at betrayal was at the end of part 1... Yet her love grew into something pure, selfless, serious and mature while Naruto's the childish one. Go figure.



> If you seriously believe deceiving somebody to get what you want is love... I wonder, had Sakura tried that with Sasuke... or Hinata with Naruto, would you call that love?



If you seriously believe betraying all those who care about you to get what you want is love...

And sorry but you must have confused me with one of these guys frantically denying the obvious... I don't deny Sakura and Hinata's love for Sasuke and Naruto. But I also don't deny Naruto's for Sakura. I dislike all Big 3 pairings equally; however I don't dislike the arguments in their favor equally.

I'm just pointing out the double standards.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 16, 2009)

Saunion said:


> I didn't say it was "exactly" alike, just that it was two stupid, negative moves, yet in one case it's used as a way to prove Naruto's childish crush (ok, makes sense), while in the other hand it's used as *undeniable proof of the strength, maturity and beauty of Sakura's feelings...* What?



I missed the part where I said that. Once again, thank you for assuming.



Saunion said:


> And the worst is, Naruto did that in chapter 3... Sakura's pathetic plead, begging, bargaining and attempt at betrayal was at the end of part 1... Yet her love grew into something pure, selfless, serious and mature while Naruto's the childish one. Go figure.



I'm not the one saying Naruto was in love with Sakura since chapter 3. And _you_ brought up the comparison, not me. 



Saunion said:


> If you seriously believe betraying all those who care about you to get what you want is love...



I don't think it's comparable to begin with. Sakura was about to make a stupid decision out of desesperation. Is not like she was planning to go with Sasuke since she discovered she was leaving.



Saunion said:


> And sorry but you must have confused me with one of these guys frantically denying the obvious... I don't deny Sakura and Hinata's love for Sasuke and Naruto. But I also don't deny Naruto's for Sakura. I dislike all Big 3 pairings equally; however I don't dislike the arguments in their favor equally.



You are not answering my question. You say Naruto tricking Sakura into kissing him is love. So I ask, would it be love if it was Hinata tricking Naruto or Sakura tricking Sasuke?

I think Naruto really loves Sakura... but is not in love with her. *shrugs* Is my own interpretation, you are free to disagree.



Saunion said:


> I'm just pointing out the double standards.



Right. 



izzyisozaki said:


> Doesn't mean Hinata's gesture didn't make him feel bad.



Did it? The only reaction we saw from Naruto was shock quickly followed by anger at Pain.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 16, 2009)

@Gabz- 
*Spoiler*: __ 



KN6. Kyuubi outleash usually represents emotional outburst. It wasn't mere anger. To me he understood the meaning of those words and felt bad. His expression is consternated.

Pain said _love breeds sacrifice, which breeds hatred_. And since it's obvious Naruto will be angry out of empathy and not truluvz, that's how I interpreted it.


----------



## Saunion (Mar 16, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> I missed the part where I said that. Once again, thank you for assuming.



I was taking your post as an example, sorry for assuming. 

To answer your question, I'd say Sakura or Hinata tricking the boys wouldn't be a proof of love per se, but added to other instances in the manga I think the message would be pretty clear.

Which is basically what I'm saying: that particular scene is obviously not the milestone of Naruto's love for Sakura; but it definitely means he's interested in her as a romantic partner, and added to other, more positive scenes coming after this one I think his feelings for her are pretty obvious.

Btw, Sakura's profile from the 3rd databook has finally been fully translated. 

sasukereborn99

A few interesting things here:



> Indeed, Haruno Sakura, a kunoichi from Konoha grew up beautifully out of the sorrows she's experienced. The death of a close one (tn: Duh?!), then the parting of ways with the person she loved...



K, I guess that confirms she was in love with Sasuke. Makes sense.



> In her childhood, Sasuke was the object of her yearning, then loving feelings. Naruto was just that annoyance that would force itself between Sasuke and her, and ruin the day in some fashion. But looking back on the past after a few missions handled together, Sakura suddenly realized. In her painful moments, when she'd abandoned even the will to live, the one who'd protect her and encourage her was Naruto, the supposedly annoying one... What feelings does she harbor towards Naruto?... As of now, Sakura hasn't found the answer.



There we go. So... What are those feelings she doesn't have an answer for? Are you actually trying to argue she's still pondering whether she likes Naruto as a friend or not? Or if she actually hates his guts and only tolerates him because he can bring Sasuke back? Let's be serious here.



> -New allies, a new master. And budding new feelings...?!



Another mention of "new feelings". Feelings of friendship of course. 



> -Day after day of strict training under Tsunade give Sakura confidence in herself.



Looks like the "confidence issue" isn't that much of an issue at all.

So? Any takers? Or are the databook and Kishimoto wrong here?


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 16, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> @Gabz-
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It wasn't pity either. His friend just "died". _Of course_ he is going to snap.

He looks completely shocked after she tells him she loves him. He didn't have time to feel pity.






Saunion said:


> I was taking your post as an example, sorry for assuming.



No problem.



Saunion said:


> To answer your question, I'd say Sakura or Hinata tricking the boys wouldn't be a proof of love per se, but added to other instances in the manga I think the message would be pretty clear.



I think you are misunderstanding me. I said Naruto tricking Sakura is not love. His actions prove his feelings were not mature at all. You don't trick a girl if you really love her, you don't use her feelings to get what you want. You may, however, do it if you are just attracted to her.



Saunion said:


> Which is basically what I'm saying: that particular scene is obviously not the milestone of Naruto's love for Sakura; but it definitely means he's interested in her as a romantic partner, and added to other, more positive scenes coming after this one I think his feelings for her are pretty obvious.



Back then his feelings were pretty obvious... just like Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were pretty obvious. I mean, none of them hid how they felt. I said Naruto did not love Sakura back then because he simply tried to trick her to get what he wanted. Something Naruto wouldn't even dream of doing at the end of part one.



Saunion said:


> Btw, Sakura's profile from the 3rd databook has finally been fully translated.
> 
> Link removed



_Now_ we take the Databooks seriously? 



Saunion said:


> A few interesting things here:
> 
> K, I guess that confirms she was in love with Sasuke. Makes sense.







Saunion said:


> There we go. So... What are those feelings she doesn't have an answer for? Are you actually trying to argue she's still pondering whether she likes Naruto as a friend or not?



Who knows? It sounds ambiguous - Yamato's words were ambiguous too -
, but Sakura's lack of romantic interest in Naruto in the manga is... pretty clear.



Saunion said:


> Or if she actually hates his guts and only tolerates him because he can bring Sasuke back? Let's be serious here.



I never said that. Sakura wants to get Sasuke back because she cares about him and she wants to protect Naruto because she cares about him too. That cannot be denied. Saying Sakura only tolerates Naruto out of convenience is like saying Sakura and Naruto only want to rescue Sasuke for each other.



Saunion said:


> Another mention of "new feelings". Feelings of friendship of course.



I believe Sakura is not the same person she was at the end of part one. Her relationship with Naruto is far more developed than before. 



Saunion said:


> Looks like the "confidence issue" isn't that much of an issue at all.



Isn't it? Tsunade's training gave her more confidence, yes. Sakura was not exactly confident when part 1 ended. That doesn't mean she doesn't have any confidence issues left. Yes, she is stronger. But so far she has failed to save Sasuke and protect Naruto... which is exactly what she wants to do.



Saunion said:


> So? Any takers? Or are the databook and Kishimoto wrong here?



Oh, don't pin that on me. I'm not the only one that said the Databooks are wrong and that Kishimoto didn't even write them. 

Do I need to remind you that there is no mention of Naruto's "love" for Sakura in his character profile or the relationship chart? :3

The databook is not a bible, it needs to be read in context with the manga. Hinata's actions in the manga made her feelings pretty clear, but some people said she only admired Naruto. The databook said her feelings were more serious than simple admiration and the manga confirmed it.


----------



## Garrod Ran (Mar 16, 2009)

Saunion said:


> I was taking your post as an example, sorry for assuming.
> 
> To answer your question, I'd say Sakura or Hinata tricking the boys wouldn't be a proof of love per se, but added to other instances in the manga I think the message would be pretty clear.
> 
> ...


----------



## Saunion (Mar 16, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> _Now_ we take the Databooks seriously?



I was under the impression NH/SS fans always took the databook seriously?

I'm just trying to see if they still do even when it doesn't go their way.



>







> Who knows? It sounds ambiguous - Yamato's words were ambiguous too -
> , but Sakura's lack of romantic interest in Naruto in the manga is... pretty clear.



Is it? Because of her reaction in one comic relief scene?

We still go back to the same thing then. If you take Sakura's reactions in these scenes are clear indication she isn't interested in him in a romantic way, then you have to admit Naruto is still interested in her in a romantic way.



> I never said that. Sakura wants to get Sasuke back because she cares about him and she wants to protect Naruto because she cares about him too. That cannot be denied. Saying Sakura only tolerates Naruto out of convenience is like saying Sakura and Naruto only want to rescue Sasuke for each other.



Yes, that much is obvious indeed.



> I believe Sakura is not the same person she was at the end of part one. Her relationship with Naruto is far more developed than before.



But why?

What feelings are they talking about now then, feelings of friendship? One could argue she considered Naruto a friend as early as the written Chunnin exam. You don't try to protect someone's dream if you still think of that someone as trash, or even if you're indifferent to him. 

Feelings of admiration and respect? Here again she exhibited those during his fight against Neji. So what is there to develop? She thinks of him as even more of a friend and admires him even more? But those aren't "new" feelings, just stronger old ones. Doesn't compute.



> Isn't it? Tsunade's training gave her more confidence, yes. Sakura was not exactly confident when part 1 ended. That doesn't mean she doesn't have any confidence issues left. Yes, she is stronger. But so far she has failed to save Sasuke and protect Naruto... which is exactly what she wants to do.



The point is... If the infamous KN4 scene was supposed to highlight her confidence issues... Then why is there absolutely no mention of it, and on the other hand a little blurb about how she's now a confident person? 

There's even other parts about her strong willpower and how she now is the one to support Naruto.



> Oh, don't pin that on me. I'm not the only one that said the Databooks are wrong and that Kishimoto didn't even write them.
> 
> Do I need to remind you that there is no mention of Naruto's "love" for Sakura in his character profile or the relationship chart? :3



True, just like there's no mention of Jiraiya's for Tsunade. Yet his profile mentions she's the woman he loves.



> The databook is not a bible, it needs to be read in context with the manga. Hinata's actions in the manga made her feelings pretty clear, but some people said she only admired Naruto. The databook said her feelings were more serious than simple admiration and the manga confirmed it.



Indeed.

And reading the databook in context with the manga shows that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are ambiguous, and supports the KN4 scene being more about Sakura's feelings for him than about "confidence issues".


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 16, 2009)

For those who like to compare:

Chi-chi hits Goku many times in "Dragon Ball Z". So it's not because Sakura beats Naruto, that she doesn't love him. These kind of thoughts are just... 

Comedic relief, thank you.

/random entry

Lol, this thread is so addicting. QUIT IT.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 16, 2009)

Saunion said:


> I was under the impression NH/SS fans always took the databook seriously?



Well, _we_ do. 

I just think it's funny that some people who dissed the Databook are now clinging to Sakura's DB3 profile as if their lives depended on it. 



Saunion said:


> I'm just trying to see if they still do even when it doesn't go their way.



As far as I'm concerned, the Databook is not contradicting _us_.



Saunion said:


> Is it? Because of her reaction in one comic relief scene?



One?

Let's see:

- Sakura systematically rejects Naruto's dates in part 1.
- First date Sakura accepts is because she wants to talk about Sasuke.
- Second date she accepts she does so without any kind of interest and only if Naruto pays. She doesn't look nervous or flustered.
- Next date request is shoot down when Sakura tells Naruto he should be training/studying instead. She is not flustered. At all.
- Last date request is answered with a "NO DUMBASS"

In none of these date requests did Sakura show an ounce of embarrasment or attraction.

And please, don't start the "she didn't say no, that means she said yes".



Saunion said:


> We still go back to the same thing then. If you take Sakura's reactions in these scenes are clear indication she isn't interested in him in a romantic way, *then you have to admit Naruto is still interested in her in a romantic way.*



When did I say otherwise? 



Saunion said:


> Yes, that much is obvious indeed.



Not to everybody. 



Saunion said:


> But why?



Why she isn't the same person?



Saunion said:


> What feelings are they talking about now then, feelings of friendship? One could argue she considered Naruto a friend as early as the written Chunnin exam. You don't try to protect someone's dream if you still think of that someone as trash, or even if you're indifferent to him.



Sakura already thought of Naruto as her teammate but her relationship with him developed a lot more after Sasuke left. You can't really compare the girl in the chuunin exams with the girl after the timeskip.



Saunion said:


> Feelings of admiration and respect? Here again she exhibited those during his fight against Neji. So what is there to develop? She thinks of him as even more of a friend and admires him even more? But those aren't "new" feelings, just stronger old ones. Doesn't compute.



She already respected him back then, but again, their relationship was not that close in the chunnin exams.



Saunion said:


> The point is... If the infamous KN4 scene was supposed to highlight her confidence issues... Then why is there absolutely no mention of it, and on the other hand a little blurb about how she's now a confident person?



Where did Sakura show confidence in herself (we are talking about protecting Naruto and saving Sasuke here) since then?



Saunion said:


> There's even other parts about her strong willpower and how she now is the one to support Naruto.



So what? She had a strong willpower before. But she still feels like a useless burden. Not that I blame her.



Saunion said:


> True, just like there's no mention of Jiraiya's for Tsunade. Yet his profile mentions she's the woman he loves.



Don't bring Jiraiya into this. Naruto's profile and chart has _nothing_ on his feelings for Sakura.



Saunion said:


> Indeed.
> 
> And reading the databook in context with the manga shows that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are ambiguous, and supports the KN4 scene being more about Sakura's feelings for him than about "confidence issues".



The KN4 scene? You mean crying because your friend is going nuts? Or are you talking about Yamato's words? Words that didn't have any kind of follow-up whatsoever.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> For those who like to compare:
> 
> Chi-chi hits Goku many times in "Dragon Ball Z". So it's not because Sakura beats Naruto, that she doesn't love him. These kind of thoughts are just...
> 
> ...



The difference is that Chichi was obviously interested in Goku. 

Sakura beats Konohamaru too. Just saying.


----------



## Saunion (Mar 16, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> Well, _we_ do.
> 
> I just think it's funny that some people who dissed the Databook are now clinging to Sakura's DB3 profile as if their lives depended on it.



I don't think any NS debater is "clinging to Sakura's profile as if their lives depended on it".

What I'm doing though, as I already said, is using it as a way to expose double standards.




> As far as I'm concerned, the Databook is not contradicting _us_.



It isn't? It doesn't talk about Sakura's changing feelings for Naruto, their ambiguous nature, and mentions Sakura's confidence issues? My bad then.



> One?
> 
> Let's see:
> 
> ...



True.

Though you could say the only real date request in part 2 was the first one, and she did accept, though she didn't really look that pleased 



> When did I say otherwise?



Wait, I thought you said Naruto wasn't in love with Sakura?



> Not to everybody.



Too bad for them.



> Why she isn't the same person?



No, why is her relationship with Naruto not the same as before, if her feelings for him are essentially the same as in part 1.



> Sakura already thought of Naruto as her teammate but her relationship with him developed a lot more after Sasuke left. You can't really compare the girl in the chuunin exams with the girl after the timeskip.



You didn't answer. I asked you what difference there is between Sakura's feelings for Naruto in part 1 and her feelings for him in part 2, and you just repeated "her relationship with him developed a lot" without mentioning how.



> She already respected him back then, but again, their relationship was not that close in the chunnin exams.



Still not answering. Having a "closer" relationship with someone you already were friends with can't be described as "new feelings". She was arguably already close friends with him back in part 1 since he's the one she confided in, drew hope from, took as example to better herself etc.



> Where did Sakura show confidence in herself (we are talking about protecting Naruto and saving Sasuke here) since then?



Oh I don't know, maybe when she attacked Saucy head on while she just saw him defeat Sai and Naruto and attempted to knock his pretty face off his delicate shoulders?



> So what? She had a strong willpower before. But she still feels like a useless burden. Not that I blame her.



The only evidence to this is the Yamato speech scene which can easily be interpreted as something completely different.



> Don't bring Jiraiya into this. Naruto's profile and chart has _nothing_ on his feelings for Sakura.



I bring Jiraiya into this because of the obvious parallel and the fact applying the same standards anti NS fans use to determine whether Naruto is in love with Sakura or not then Jiraiya is obviously not in love with Tsunade. Yet we all know (at least I hope so) it isn't the case.



> The KN4 scene? You mean crying because your friend is going nuts? Or are you talking about Yamato's words? Words that didn't have any kind of follow-up whatsoever.



I mean the constant talk about her feelings for Naruto in that scene and arc yeah, that somehow ended up being a scene about self confidence.

Btw what does the fact it had no follow up has to do with anything? The manga isn't over.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Mar 16, 2009)

I'm one who takes databooks as absolute shit in all regards, so  can say right now that none of these pages are ones i can really take seriously in any regard.

However, its been shown in the manga itself, how much Naruto has encouraged and protected Sakura in part 1, and in part 2, her feelings have been alluded to multiple times, as something that has either been cutoff by a third party for some reason, alluded to in Sakura's own actions, or put on a level where it is almost impossible to rule them out as strictly friendship or platonic type feelings, heck the very second they meet up in part 2, she's (maybe unconsciously) flirting with him! 


Half joking "dates" (from Naruto's side) and Sakura's only partial rejections aside, there's nothing to indicate an absolute non possibility of their feelings for each other being and continuing to be romantic in nature. 

Naruto's feelings have also been highlighted in a number of ways as well and AT LEAST puts into question what the heck Kishi is trying to highlight with these two's bond, if he was only intending for Naruto to end up with someone he's barely talked to or interacted with for most of the series due to a confession from her side of romantic love. 

It can be argued that Canon!NaruHina's chances are actually because of the fact that he was oblivious, giving credence to the possibility that said moments were leading up to that point in time.

Its one of the reasons i doubt that is the case however, and due to what i feel the strength of Naruto's feelings for Sakura are, as highlighted in parts 1 and 2, lead me to believe that this will not affect the outcome of pairings in the series.


----------



## twilight (Mar 16, 2009)

It doesn't matter two people that have only talked like once can't possibly be a pair. Especially since Naruto has never ever even thought about Hinata up till now. This pair is a fail,watch it not happen and me be oh so happy.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 16, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Yeah chapter 25,( where is that?  somewhere in the Wave country arc?) it's not like Sakura developed a deeper and more mature understanding of Sasuke since then, you know.  It's not like the Chuuin exams or PoaL happened afterwards.



The kid wanted to know where it was said, and I pointed out where it is. 

Besides, if information was irrelevant, then people still wouldn't be using Databook 1 information, thank you very much.



moonjump05 said:


> Only to be proven wrong two seconds later.



And two chapters later they were out on a date.  



moonjump05 said:


> That's not true.  You can say that certain characters romantic feelings for certain other characters are stronger than others.



Okay then, using only Part 2, show me definitive proof of SasuSaku.



moonjump05 said:


> Concerning the Gaara fight:
> 
> I think that the primary goal of that fight was to show Naruto's foil Gaara that having precious people is not impossible and it doesn't make one weak.  It was about Naruto proving his way of thinking- the Will of Fire to be specific- in typical shounen sense of beating it into him.  This fight is backdropped by saving Sakura and Sasuke, by having the Third protecting the village from Orochimaru, by having many Konoha ninja fighting the Sound and Suna ninja.  His crush on Sakura is mentioned, but it is not the focus- it's protecting those important to you.



If thats the case, then there wouldn't be any relevance to Sakura and Sasuke's scene about that day.



moonjump05 said:


> Sakura didn't believe that Naruto saved her at first.  And of course she was thankful, he saved her life!



And that's when her opinion of him greatly changed.   From there, their bond grew stronger and stronger.



moonjump05 said:


> Well you know Naruto has a crush on Sakura and:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: _Yeah and:_ 



 in her brave moment, she caused Naruto to throw out his vow to never to use the Kyuubi again and unleashed the Kyuubi.  

WTG, Hinata! you just made Sakura's "selfish love", look pale in comparison.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 16, 2009)

Saunion said:


> I don't think any NS debater is "clinging to Sakura's profile as if their lives depended on it".



_Reeeeally?_ 



Saunion said:


> What I'm doing though, as I already said, is using it as a way to expose double standards.



Yes, you did say that.



Saunion said:


> It isn't? It doesn't talk about Sakura's changing feelings for Naruto



I already said they changed from part 1 to part 2...



Saunion said:


> their ambiguous nature



As ambiguous as Yamato's speech.



Saunion said:


> and mentions Sakura's confidence issues? My bad then.



Which I already said were not resolved.



Saunion said:


> Though you could say the only real date request in part 2 was the first one, and she did accept, though she didn't really look that pleased



Accepting a free meal with a friend? Who wouldn't do that?



Saunion said:


> Wait, I thought you said Naruto wasn't in love with Sakura?



Back in chapter _3_.



Saunion said:


> Too bad for them.



Indeed.



Saunion said:


> No, why is her relationship with Naruto not the same as before, _if her feelings for him are essentially the same as in part 1._



Are they? Sakura hated Naruto, then tolerated him, warmed up to him, accepted him as a friend. In part 1. Still their friendship was not as developed as it is right now. Right now Sakura not only knows and accepts the fact that he has the Kyuubi, she also believes he is strong enough to beat somebody like Pain and would die for his sake.

Geez, one would think the only way Sakura is allowed to be closer to him is by getting in his pants. That's Sasuke's job, sorry.



Saunion said:


> You didn't answer. I asked you what difference there is between Sakura's feelings for Naruto in part 1 and her feelings for him in part 2, and you just repeated "her relationship with him developed a lot" without mentioning how.



See above.



Saunion said:


> Still not answering. Having a "closer" relationship with someone you already were friends with can't be described as "new feelings". She was arguably already close friends with him back in part 1 since he's the one she confided in, drew hope from, took as example to better herself etc.



Was she? After the Gaara arc she still didn't trust his skills (doubting when Sasuke told her Naruto beat Gaara) and Naruto had to made her a promise to rescue Sasuke for her to realize how much he cared about her. After that, he left for almost 3 years. Now they have a common goal that has brought them closer... which still doesn't mean she wants to get in his pants.



Saunion said:


> Oh I don't know, maybe when she attacked Saucy head on while she just saw him defeat Sai and Naruto and attempted to knock his pretty face off his delicate shoulders?



Ah, you mean the scene that was _followed_ by a broken Naruto and Sakura crying because Sasuke left?



Saunion said:


> The only evidence to this is the Yamato speech scene which can easily be interpreted as something completely different.



Good point. I guess we'll need Kishimoto to focus on her to confirm it. I think it's perfectly normal that she has confidence issues, considering she is leagues behind her teammates (again), Sasuke is still MIA and Naruto 
*Spoiler*: __ 



just went KN8 and risks getting captured.


. She has tried to protect Naruto and save Sasuke, but so far she has failed to do so.



Saunion said:


> I bring Jiraiya into this because of the obvious parallel and the fact applying the same standards anti NS fans use to determine whether Naruto is in love with Sakura or not then Jiraiya is obviously not in love with Tsunade. Yet we all know (at least I hope so) it isn't the case.



Jiraiya was obviously in love with Tsunade. So what? That has nothing to do with Naruto or Sakura's feelings. There is a parallel between Team 7 and the Sannin, but that parallel doesn't reach all the aspects of their lives. If it did, Tsunade would have been in love with Orochimaru. 



Saunion said:


> I mean the constant talk about her feelings for Naruto in that scene and arc yeah, that somehow ended up being a scene about self confidence.



Constant talk? You mean from Sai (Master of Understanding Feelings) and Yamato (Captain that would leave an injured Naruto behind but chooses to give the medic nin a Love Talk just before visiting Orochimaru?)?

...Ok. 



Saunion said:


> Btw what does the fact it had no follow up has to do with anything?



It has to do with _everything_. Sakura is not stupid. She has not thought about Yamato's words even when she had several opportunities to do so. She still rejects Naruto's requests. She still doesn't get flustered or embarrased about said requests. She still didn't comfort him after Jiraiaya died when she had the perfect opportunity do so. 

If Yamato was talking about Sakura's obvious yet hidden feelings for Naruto one would think the smartest girl after Shikamaru would think about it and figure it out after being asked out twice since then. Heck, that feeding scene would have been the ideal scenario for her to have a flashback. 



Saunion said:


> The manga isn't over.



I'm well aware of that.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 16, 2009)

twilight said:


> It doesn't matter two people that have only talked like once can't possibly be a pair. Especially since Naruto has never ever even thought about Hinata up till now. This pair is a fail,watch it not happen and me be oh so happy.



Would you care to be ellaborate a bit more your arguments instead that just saying "its a fail"?


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## Erendhyl (Mar 16, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> And two chapters later they were out on a date.



In the manga, they never actually did anything about that date. Sakura says "Fine, but only if you pay", which causes Naruto to look upset as he realizes that his wallet is either empty or doesn't contain enough money. (My interpretation was that that meant that they wouldn't go on a date, since Naruto obviously couldn't pay, which was Sakura's condition.) Immediately after that panel, Shikamaru and Temari show up, which is followed by their conversation, which is followed by Gaara's appearance in Suna. The next time Naruto appears, he's at Ichiraku with Iruka. Sakura is nowhere in sight. So, if they actually went on a date, it got absolutely no panel time whatsoever.



> If thats the case, then there wouldn't be any relevance to Sakura and Sasuke's scene about that day.


Honestly, I don't feel that there's anything pairing-based in this scene. The focus of that battle is on the importance of precious people, not on who is destined to be with who. Maybe after pairings are officially declared canon it will become clear, but at the moment there is NOTHING in there that is the focus of the scene enough to be interpreted as a solid romantic hint.



> *Spoiler*: _Yeah and:_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yamato told Naruto not to use the Kyuubi, but the fact that Naruto can access the Kyuubi's chakra at all indicates that Minato intended for him to be able to use and master it. Why enable the kid to use the chakra if you plan on telling him "by the way, never use it"? Especially because in part 1 it was generally regarded that he should use the Fox's chakra, such as how Jiraiya _pushed him off a cliff_ in chapter 94 to get him to tap into it.

And how was Hinata's action selfish? There was a 100% guarantee that Naruto would have been captured had she not intervened. Now, Naruto at least has a chance. He hasn't been captured yet, which is better than what would have happened if she'd sat there like a good little girl. She stood up to defend her precious person, which is what this manga is all about. If that's selfish, then by the same logic Sasuke was being selfish back in the Land of Waves when he took Haku's attack for Naruto.


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## Kek (Mar 16, 2009)

> *Spoiler*: _Yeah and:_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: _manga_ 



Naruto is meant to control the Kyuubi, not to swear off it completely. 

Because Naruto being captured would have been waaay better, right? 
-snip-


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 16, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, it's NOT the same. Sasuke dying for Naruto was an action which was automatic, in a fight that involved them both and where the latter clearly gives up something which meant a lot. You know, something else to have aspiration towards. He also had the development with Naruto to justify such action from a literary viewpoint still surprising the audience. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Instead Hinata gets exactly what her character officially revolves on, showing up to Naruto 

Also, using the Fox's chakra to that extent, if I'm not wrong, shortens the user's life . Whether the consequences were benefitial or not Naruto didn't enjoy seeing someone slaughtered helplessly for his sake. She admitted it to be a selfish action herself . A romantic confession usually always has pretention. They way she did it is as if she wanted to leave her mark, and that's why it's selfish, utter pairing fodder.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 16, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> No, it's NOT the same. Sasuke dying for Naruto was an action which was automatic, in a fight that involved them both and where the latter clearly gives up something which meant a lot. You know, something else to have aspiration towards. He also had the development with Naruto to justify such action from a literary viewpoint still surprising the audience.



Hinata may not have had the mutual development with Naruto to justify the action, but from what we've seen in her mind it was definitely justified that she would die to protect him. She's been telling us since her preliminary match with Neji just how important he is to her.


*Spoiler*: __ 



While Hinata was not involved as directly as Sasuke, she still had a large stake in that fight. Had Pain succeeded in capturing Naruto, I think it's pretty likely that the first place to experience Pain's plan for creating peace would be the shattered remains of Konoha. Every citizen of Konoha was involved with that fight, but Hinata was one of the only ones with both a Byakugan to see what was happening and the ability to intervene (meaning that she wasn't busy healing everyone, like Sakura, or unable to move, like Shikamaru).






> Also, using the Fox's chakra to that extent, if I'm not wrong, shortens the user's life .




*Spoiler*: __ 



When the alternative was dying right then, I don't think that that really matters to Naruto.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Whether the consequences were benefitial or not Naruto didn't enjoy seeing someone slaughtered helplessly for his sake.



That's exactly what Sasuke did in the Land of Waves though. He died before Naruto's eyes in an attempt to save Naruto. (Or at least, both of them thought that he died before Naruto's eyes.) The consequences were beneficial, but I don't think that Naruto enjoyed watching that either.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> She admitted it to be a selfish action herself .



This is Hinata. Hinata, the girl who would not hate Neji when he was trying to kill her, and instead said that she would gladly die if it would bring back his father. I think that her idea of 'being selfish', when applying it to herself, might be a little more extreme than most people's.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> A romantic confession usually always has pretention. They way she did it is as if she wanted to leave her mark, and that's why it's selfish, utter pairing fodder.



This is like how Sasuke felt the need to mention Itachi to Naruto right before he "died". If Sasuke just gave his life to save Naruto, after saying that there was someone he had wanted to kill, don't you think that Naruto will feel just the tiniest bit obligated to go find this older brother of Sasuke's and kill him for Sasuke? It wasn't going to help Naruto any to hear either thing, but the character in question wanted to get it out in the air so that they could leave a last mark and die without any regrets. (Or at least without too many regrets.)


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 16, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Hinata may not have had the mutual development with Naruto to justify the action, but from what we've seen in her mind it was definitely justified that she would die to protect him. She's been telling us since her preliminary match with Neji just how important he is to her.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Sasuke didn't confess romantic feelings - the theme is important - and a reason why Neji vs. Hinata was 1000 times cooler. Naruto asked Sasuke WHY [as he did with Hinata, but see: First he said he had no idea...then he was in the former's arms and smiled for the irony of the situation. They had HATED each other!]. And like I said they were 1. fighting together 2. it was automatic 3. it has no pretensions whatsoever [Hinata admitted her action was selfish!]. The logic which she used implied she couldn't do ANYTHING but die [and confess her feelings]. It was built up on mutual interaction and that is why the comparison pales. Sakura running to KN4 was far more justified. She was putting aside her desire to save Sasuke by stopping Naruto. Do you see the difference between what's justified and what's pathetic when it comes to an act of love? Hinata doesn't know Naruto as well however you put it. And no, I disagree that it's necessarily positive to pull out Kyuubi. Part 2 Naruto needs to learn to use his brain - not explode.


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## Kek (Mar 16, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _slight spoilers_ 



I guess you have to ask if is it better to have loved and loss or never to have loved at all?

Not to say Naruto is in love with/has to love Hinata. But the knowledge of knowing someone loves you. *shrug*


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 16, 2009)

^But seeing that person die  donotwant

So far I think it's clear what is the only love that will satisfy him in a significant way. But that's just me...


----------



## Kek (Mar 16, 2009)

^ I personally would want to know, but thats just me. 

Its an interesting thought nonetheless.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> No, it's NOT the same. Sasuke dying for Naruto was an action which was automatic, in a fight that involved them both and where the latter clearly gives up something which meant a lot. You know, something else to have aspiration towards. He also had the development with Naruto to justify such action from a literary viewpoint still surprising the audience.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



The two scenes are very similar and I think meant to echo each other.  

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sasuke 'dying' and Hinata 'dying' for the same reason- to protect Naruto at the cost of their own life.
Something he himself never expects either to do at the time.
Actually Hinata's first time she tries to go to him seems rather automatic, everyone was told not to interfere, and she clearly gives up not only her life but her dream of walking beside Naruto that day.
She hasn't had as much screentime as Sasuke- but what supporting character has?  Every time she has shown up her feelings for Naruto are present.
I don't think Hinata's intention was to show up to Naruto, this isn't her thinking, 'Watch me, Naruto-kun!'  it's more like, 'I'll protect Naruto-kun with my life.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Also, using the Fox's chakra to that extent, if I'm not wrong, shortens the user's life . Whether the consequences were benefitial or not Naruto didn't enjoy seeing someone slaughtered helplessly for his sake. She admitted it to be a selfish action herself . A romantic confession usually always has pretention. *They way she did it is as if she wanted to leave her mark, and that's why it's selfish, utter pairing fodder*.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Shortening the users life compared to him getting captured and killed the next day?
Of course he wasn't happy about her getting stabbed- he wasn't happy with Sasuke getting pin cushioned either.
She said she felt like being selfish, probably meaning going against Koh's advice and going into the danger zone probably to be killed.  Her actions itself- protecting Naruto- was not selfish.
The confession seemed second on her mind to protecting Naruto- she probably figured she'd never get a chance to say it again.
That bolded line is complete bullshit.  Her clear priority was protecting Naruto, something in this manga is the ultimate expression of the Will of Fire.  Sorry you didn't like it because it hit a little to close to Sasuke's oh so selfless and ultimate expression of love.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

@moonjump- It's not utter bullshit for who hoped Hinata wouldn't have been used as a blatant plot device that'd make her look like all she ever did was fap to Naruto her entire life.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> @moonjump- It's not utter bullshit for who hoped Hinata wouldn't have been used as a blatant plot device that made her look like all she ever did was fap to Naruto her entire life.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Where did you get that impression from that scene?  It was clear to me it highlighted how she changed from someone who always cried and ran away into someone who would protect those she loved with her life.  In truth it highlighted her character growth.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



It's called lack of development my friend. Whatever progress or whatever she left behind she made a *love confession* weighed with her very life. It doesn't correspond with the rhythm of the story; thus how I saw that scene. Naruto is someone that's supposed to inspire people - not make them commit pointless romantic suicide.


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## ironblade_x1 (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It's called lack of development my friend. Whatever progress or whatever she left behind she made a *love confession* weighed with her very life. It doesn't correspond with the rhythm of the story; thus how I saw that scene. Naruto is someone that's supposed to inspire people - not make them commit pointless romantic suicide.




*Spoiler*: __ 



And what? Would you rather that she and the rest of Konoha stood by and do nothing? Naruto at that point had clearly lost. He was pinned, the fight was over, and Pain was about to do some warp jutsu to take the both of them away. Hinata had two options: Sit tight, or at least try and do something about it, the latter proving to be the more obvious considering both her feelings and progression. Her confession was nothing more than the climax for her; she knew that she was ridiculously outmatched and that death was a near certainty, but letting the man she'd adored for years be taken and killed would destroy her conscience. 




tl;dr, she had no choice.


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## Hikui (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm so not supposed to be here. Damn it. Oh well. 



izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It's called lack of development my friend. Whatever progress or whatever she left behind she made a *love confession* weighed with her very life. It doesn't correspond with the rhythm of the story; thus how I saw that scene. Naruto is someone that's supposed to inspire people - not make them commit pointless romantic suicide.





moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get that impression from that scene?  It was clear to me it highlighted how she changed from someone who always cried and ran away into someone who would protect those she loved with her life.  In truth it highlighted her character growth.




*Spoiler*: __ 




I understand what both parties are trying to point out about what Hinata did, but I happen to disagree with both of you at some point. 

People are calling Hinata's confession sudden, out of the blue and without character development or follow up, and even when I sort of liked it, it's true. However, I don't think that was Kishimoto's intention. He didn't write Hinata's confession that way in order for people to say "That was shit, it's fodder and so she shall die and proves Naruto will never love her and he'll definitely end up with Sakura". 

Kishimoto planned (yes, I believe that was his intention all along) Hinata's confession that way because, really, there wasn't a way out. Hinata had to said it in order for her character to progress, it was implied from the begging of the manga. (Whether this means Naruhina for some or not, it's a matter of opinion). BUT, IT HAD TO HAPPEN. If you didn't like the way it happened, then blame Kishimoto's writing, but truth is that Hinata's act wasn't supposed to be "stooopid" or looked down. If he hadn't intended it to be that way he could've easily played Hinata's love as admiration like lots of other fans did. Or he just would've ignored her just like other characters and have, someone else, like Sakura, do something.

This manga is going incredibly fast so there wasn't much time to dwell on her character, so people see her actions as: lack of development. Thing is, even when we didn't see it: Hinata did progress. And Kishimoto showed us, albeit poorly for some, in the way she protected Naruto.

Kishimoto used her as plot device (then), sure, but that doesn't mean she isn't a character or that she has other relevant (or irrelevant) plot. Lots of other characters have been used as plot device, and if people want to look at it from that point of view, then every single character is a plot device for Naruto to grow. So really, I find sort of pathetic for people to down play Hinata's sacrifice. It wasn't stupid. So if there's someone to blame is Kishimoto's laziness.  




I feel like there's more stuff I should dwell on, but I'm sleepy so I might come back later.


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## ironblade_x1 (Mar 17, 2009)

^I disagree.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's spoiler, while "out-of-the-blue", wasn't entirely unexpected. It was clear in the chapter's building up that she'd have some role to play, and that she knew confronting Pain was the equivalent of a death wish. She has her Byakugan, and she's watched the entire fight. She watched Deva blow away 3 boss summons and mercilessly gut Yoda a feeble-looking old toad. This was something that needed to be resolved, and, yes, it also was a convenient spark for the Kyuubi. 

Her interference both saved Naruto's life and opened up the door to anything she needed to get done. In her eyes, death was almost a certainty the moment she decided to interfere; her confession was nothing more than an attempt to finally vocalize her feelings before just becoming another victim.

I mean, it'd suck if she just jumped in and died. Can't imagine what Naruto would've thought there.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It's called lack of development my friend. Whatever progress or whatever she left behind she made a *love confession* weighed with her very life. It doesn't correspond with the rhythm of the story; thus how I saw that scene. Naruto is someone that's supposed to inspire people - not make them commit pointless romantic suicide.



O rly?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto _did _inspire her, or did you miss the panels of her telling you so?

As a Hinata fan I have been waiting for her change for years.  This is the Hinata we glimpsed during the chuunin prelims.  This is her changing to the point that she not only has Naruto's nindo, but she also has his Will of Fire- protecting the one she loves even at risk of her own life.
It didn't matter that's she's outclassed or that he doesn't love her.
It didn't matter that her dream of walking beside him wouldn't come true.
It didn't matter that he didn't answer her back.
It didn't matter that she was going to die.
_She had to protect the one she loved._

You seem to miss the point in this manga that dying to protect the ones precious to you is _not _looked down upon as throwing your life away.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

^
*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah - I see that Naruto inspired Hinata - to make a spectacular love confession . I don't care what people think, I still won't support Hinata's decision. I think it hurt Naruto to see that; the logic used was that she knew she _couldn't_ compete. I'm not talking about the consequences. I'm talking about the fact she didn't need die for his sake in the name of love when it would do nothing but mortify him; he was fighting to protect those very people - how could anyone be happy to hear those announced feelings having no chance to even answer them, lying there helpless to watch them die? Disgusting.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ^
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



And it hurt Naruto to see Sasuke dying too.

Sasuke did the same thing- threw himself in danger despite being outclassed by Haku, told Naruto about his dream of killing Itachi.  How could Naruto be happy at that?  Seeing his rival/best friend/brother announce that he had no idea why he did that, having no chance to answer him and then helpless to watch him die.  Disgusting.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




I like sacrifices that have mutuality/development or no romantic pretentions thank you very much  tragic onesided romances where one commits suicide for the another barely knowing them personally reeks of pathetic. If it had been developed just slightly over 200+ chapters I wouldn't be saying this. I was touched by the KN4 scene - instead this was so rushed and poorly foreshadowed I couldn't even pity her.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, I can't help what you decide what you like or not, but Hinata has been shown to worry about Naruto in battle, she's been shown to have something else to say to him, she's been shown considering jumping in and helping him, she's been shown to want to continue to change herself.  This turn of events was surprising and awesome  but not unexpected or without development.

It's seems to me that her confession was not the reason she went in there, but rather to protect Naruto.  Yeah she confessed, but it played off as something that she wanted to say before she died- something she didn't really expect an answer for.  She was focused on protecting him.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

^
*Spoiler*: __ 



It would be a lot easier to believe you if she didn't admit she was acting selfish herself and if the gesture hadn't made Naruto lose control. I don't think those emotional outbreaks are "cool" for Naruto as pwnsome as it is seeing them being the reader. Whether she was thinking about protecting Naruto or not there is no denying that confessing one's love before such a gesture is _obligating_. I don't find that courageous at all - pouring one's feelings on someone right before they get killed for your sake . She has had the chances before...but apparently that logic is only valid for Sakura.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 17, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> In the manga, they never actually did anything about that date. Sakura says "Fine, but only if you pay", which causes Naruto to look upset as he realizes that his wallet is either empty or doesn't contain enough money. (My interpretation was that that meant that they wouldn't go on a date, since Naruto obviously couldn't pay, which was Sakura's condition.) Immediately after that panel, Shikamaru and Temari show up, which is followed by their conversation, which is followed by Gaara's appearance in Suna. The next time Naruto appears, he's at Ichiraku with Iruka. Sakura is nowhere in sight. So, if they actually went on a date, it got absolutely no panel time whatsoever.



Oh you can nitpick all you want.  But the fact remains, Naruto asked, Sakura accepted.   

BTW, how many dates he been on with Hinata-hime?  



Erendhyl said:


> Honestly, I don't feel that there's anything pairing-based in this scene. The focus of that battle is on the importance of precious people, not on who is destined to be with who. Maybe after pairings are officially declared canon it will become clear, but at the moment there is NOTHING in there that is the focus of the scene enough to be interpreted as a solid romantic hint.



I never said it had anything to do with destiny, nor was it pairing-related.  All I said is that Sakura looked upon Naruto with a new light.



Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, Yamato never told Naruto not to use it, he said that Naruto would be stronger in not using it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



We can sit here all day doing "what ifs", the fact is Hinata went against Naruto's wishes.  And as a result, caused the Kyuubi to return and putting Konoha at risk.







Kek said:


> *Spoiler*: _manga_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well Kek, better than Kishimoto taking one of my fandoms beliefs and doing a 180 with it.


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## Karmillina (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ^
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



You fail to notice Hinata knows nothing about the Kyuubi. How would she have guessed? Her only thought was that she had to do something for Naruto, no matter how useless it proved to be. She knew she could die, so she did the thing she wanted to do the most, since she knew she probably wouldn't get a chance.

You also skip the fact of Hinata's personality. Usually words don't hold as much weight as facts. For example, even though Sasuke told Sakura she was annoying when he was going away, he didn't mean "go away"... in fact, he appreciated her effort, useless as it might have been. Hinata, always looked down upon, has grown to believe she worths a little less than everyone else. She thinks she's selfish because she leaves Koh, the one protecting her, to protect Naruto, her precious one. 

Regardless of Hinata's feelings, she made Naruto activate KN6, thus setting him free, and making Pein make a graceful flee so in the end, isn't it kind of a good thing?

Before looking down on Hinata's sacrifice, people should get to know and understand her better. Who wouldn't confess to the one they loved before jumping merrily to death?




^^^^^ this one isn't really a pairing defense, but a character defense. Just in case you wonder.

And now confessions are less important that "dates" meant to talk about someone else? I fail to see how a date that basically spun around Sasuke and his absence holds any pairing value.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

Karmillina said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> You fail to notice Hinata knows nothing about the Kyuubi. How would she have guessed? Her only thought was that she had to do something for Naruto, no matter how useless it proved to be. She knew she could die, so she did the thing she wanted to do the most, since she knew she probably wouldn't get a chance.



*Spoiler*: __ 



And for the 100th time, people fail to notice that I say
IT IS NOT ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES! It's about emotional effect it had on Naruto. Where did I ever say that Hinata is to be blamed for not knowing about Kyuubi? Yeah, so Hinata won't have a next time to confess her feelings. Too bad. Cos confessing them is still pointless or uncalled for when you're about to make a suicidal act. She has all the right to express how she feels about him; but putting her death on his conscious when they barely even spoke to each other in Part 2 is ridiculous. I simply find it a poor excuse for development, may I?





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> You also skip the fact of Hinata's personality. Usually words don't hold as much weight as facts. For example, even though Sasuke told Sakura she was annoying when he was going away, he didn't mean "go away"... in fact, he appreciated her effort, useless as it might have been. Hinata, always looked down upon, has grown to believe she worths a little less than everyone else. She thinks she's selfish because she leaves Koh, the one protecting her, to protect Naruto, her precious one.



*Spoiler*: __ 




Yeah cos it was Koh's job to protect her. The list of victims is increasing.
Comparing SasuSaku to NaruHina in this case is a flawed argument. They had a relationship based on some significant mutual exchange however weak. If Hinata truly understood Naruto, and wanted to help him, she should have never made such a rash gesture. You can protect someone without doing it in such an obligating manner. To me it screamed egotism/immaturity, just like Sakura's confession.





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of Hinata's feelings, she made Naruto activate KN6, thus setting him free, and making Pein make a graceful flee so in the end, isn't it kind of a good thing?



*Spoiler*: __ 



Could be. I still found it pitiful. But I won't absolutely condemn her cos after all, she's just a teenager and it's an extreme situation even if a ninja should know how to control their emotions.





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Before looking down on Hinata's sacrifice, people should get to know and understand her better. Who wouldn't confess to the one they loved before jumping merrily to death?



*Spoiler*: __ 



That is true, but circumstances can be different.  Naruto was in danger, but he wasn't about to get _killed_ either. I don't see what was the great use of her gesture that wasn't for herself. SHE KNOWINGLY COULDN'T COMPETE AT ALL. She confessed to then die uselessly. And if Naruto were to reject her, he gets to look like an utter bastard 

I don't see why he deserves to see someone that loves him die right in front of him while he can't do anything; so however you look at it, Naruto is on GUILT street for someone he barely noticed in the same extent. I don't expect you guys to be agreeing with me, but you can't expect me to change a _gut_ feeling. I was appalled, and it failed to compare to other sacrifice scenes imo, and that's it. You can think what you like.



@Tyrannos- Yeah she said yes to the date, but because of the circumstances it fails to impress anyone.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 17, 2009)

Yeah, they knock the after math, but forget about how proud Naruto was that Sakura accepted that he was bragging to Shikamaru.  

And of course, this date totally had to do with Sasuke.......oh right it had nothing to do with him.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

Taken far too seriously.

It's just a date. Sakura has given one to Naruto even in Part 1 - as a comprimise - and that could almost be said about this one too.

Of course he brags. He likes being with Sakura that way. Doesn't necessarily prove he's madly in love though.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Taken far too seriously.
> 
> It's just a date. Sakura has given one to Naruto even in Part 1 - as a comprimise - and that could almost be said about this one too.
> 
> Of course he brags. He likes being with Sakura that way. Doesn't necessarily prove he's madly in love though.



The dates and the posturing i feel are all for comic relief, its not about the dates, the requests or any of the outright stuff, that's why i don't necessarily take the 343 scene with naruto commenting on some sort of atmosphere seriously as some kind of "moment". 

Its in the fact that, when the chips are down, he's usually the one who can make her smile and the one who wants to do nothing more than that, is what above all makes me believe in Naruto's feelings for her being "serious".


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

^
*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto's smile can save people apparently


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 17, 2009)

First post in the debate thread.  Eh, I'll probably post some more reasons why I don't think NaruSaku will happen, but this post is tl;dr enough.  It feels nice to get back into my debate head; I haven't had a good shipping debate in flipping forever!



izzyisozaki said:


> ^
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, because Hinata knew her love confession would make Naruto lose control. XD  Confessing isn't pointless when you love someone and you're about to die.  Haven't you ever regretted not being able to tell someone something?  It doesn't matter if they didn't have much interaction in Part 2.  Naruto still affected Hinata and made her the person she is today; _he inspired her_; the whole point of the manga was Naruto making an impact, and he made this impact on _her_, and honestly, what is so wrong with sacrificing your life for someone you love?  No, what is so wrong with sacrificing your life even for someone you _don't_ know well, but has made an impact on your life?

Yes, it hurt Naruto, but I'm pretty sure Naruto would be glad in the end that _someone loved him_, even if he was unable to save that person.

It wasn't meant to be courageous.  It was meant to be a moment of growth.  This was Hinata growing from her younger, weaker self to the powerful, strong woman Naruto inspired her to be.  In a lot of ways, Hinata protecting Naruto was less "_I'll protect Naruto_" and more, "_I'll protect my precious one, and show the world how much I've grown, and it's all because of that precious one_", and even if she seemed selfish or died, she still attempted to save Naruto's life -- maybe what little time she faced against Pein would change the tides of war, perhaps it'd encourage others to step forward and help Naruto, blah blah blah, the fact of the matter was that this was Hinata, and she would do anything she could if it had the potential of saving his life, even if it meant taking her own.  She admitted it was selfish because, partly, it was, and secondly, because it makes for a good line that'll tug at people's heartstrings (*takes off writer's hat to hang*). 

This whole manga is about the will of fire and protecting the people you love, even if it means your own death.  It's ridiculous that Hinata's sacrifice would mean any less _just_ because of her love confession, when a love confession (especially to Naruto, who was never told he was loved by anyone his whole life) should only deepen that sacrifice.  Yes, it hurt Naruto; but it also meant protecting him, because _that's partly what this manga is about_.  Protecting your precious ones.  Shikamaru wanted to go and protect Naruto, but he was injured.  Sakura wanted to go, but there were other people she had to take care of.  There were a variety of people who would've been "stoopid" and tried to save Naruto regardless if it meant throwing away their own lives, but _Kishimoto chose Hinata_.  The fact that he even _continued_ by having Hinata make this sacrifice _romantic_ by confessing her love is NOT meant to be taken as selfish, or stupid, or ridiculous.  She did what everyone else wanted to do, because she wasn't injured, she wasn't out of chakra, and she wanted to protect the person she loved most, even if it meant she'd lose her own life.  _She wanted to try._

Honestly, it doesn't matter if you or I perceive Hinata's actions as stoopid or selfish (that's getting off-tangent); what matters is the follow-up when it comes to Naruto and how _he_ perceives it. All I know is one of the driving points of the sacrifice was this: A lot of Naruto's friends wanted to do what Hinata did to protect their precious person, only Kishimoto flavored this as a romantic scene by having Naruto hear "I love you" for the _first_ time.  Why would that first "I love you" be tainted by Naruto finding that person to be selfish and dumb (or somehow lesser or worthless) for sacrificing her life for him?  _That_ goes against Naruto's themes, _not_ Hinata sacrificing herself for Naruto's sake.






> BTW, how many dates he been on with Hinata-hime?




*Spoiler*: __ 



After Kishimoto gets around to Naruto talking to Hinata about her confession?  A lot. =)






> That is true, but circumstances can be different. Naruto was in danger, but he wasn't about to get killed either.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, because being impaled through the hands with energy pegs, about to be hauled off to be de-Jinchuuriki-ized, and killed off like all of other Jinchuuriki, "_isn't about to get killed either_". 






> And if Naruto were to reject her, he gets to look like an utter bastard




*Spoiler*: __ 



That's not the point.  He wouldn't look like a bastard for rejecting her, either.  But honestly, why _would_ he reject her?  There is absolutely no reason he would.  What, is he going to reject her for a woman who's rejected him a gagzillion of times before?  Puh-lease.  If he says no (which I highly doubt), it'd only be because he has to focus on getting Sauce~<3 back _or_ for putting the village back together.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Taken far too seriously.
> 
> It's just a date. Sakura has given one to Naruto even in Part 1 - as a comprimise - and that could almost be said about this one too.
> 
> Of course he brags. He likes being with Sakura that way. Doesn't necessarily prove he's madly in love though.



Doesn't prove he's madly in love with Sakura?   

Seriously man, why the hell do people say Naruto's not in love with Sakura, when he's always had an interest in her since Chapter 3?   I swear people are so ignorant when it comes to romance in manga and anime they need a billboard sign that reads "I LOVE SO AND SO!" 



Spiffy is Glory said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> After Kishimoto gets around to Naruto talking to Hinata about her confession?  A lot. =)



This isn't Shoujo.  

Naruto got more important things on his mind right now.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because being impaled through the hands with energy pegs, about to be hauled off to be de-Jinchuuriki-ized, and killed off like all of other Jinchuuriki, "_isn't about to get killed either_".




*Spoiler*: __ 



Tsunade and Sakura had faith Naruto wasn't going to be captured, why not Hinata?

In the end, her wholehearted confession that people literally waited 7 years for, ended up being a plot tool in bringing back the Kyuubi.






Spiffy is Glory said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> That's not the point.  He wouldn't look like a bastard for rejecting her, either.  But honestly, why _would_ he reject her?  There is absolutely no reason he would.  What, is he going to reject her for a woman who's rejected him a gagzillion of times before?  Puh-lease.  If he says no (which I highly doubt), it'd only be because he has to focus on getting Sauce~<3 back _or_ for putting the village back together.




*Spoiler*: __ 



And why preytell, would Naruto accept Hinata's confession?   Because she confessed?   

What about Naruto's feelings for Sakura?  Are we to shelve them because Hinata's feelings are more important than his?


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

@Spiffy-
*Spoiler*: __ 



Look you guys, enough. Stop responding just to make me repeat myself to the same old discourse. I already said mine is a NATURAL reaction and you can feel what you want. Your pairing logic fails to affect my opinion in any manner.

I'm tired of hearing "Naruto has never heard someone say they love him" and yada.

Naruto isn't ALONE anymore. It's been addressed more than once. As of lately he is suffering mostly over the broken bonds with a friend that means more than anyone else to him in the entire series when looking at the bare evidence. Lacking general love during your life doesn't mean you will romantically fall for just anyone. It's just a pairing wish of Naruto having the need to return Hinata's feelings. Since when _romantic_ love is the main desire of Naruto? I'd love to quote you guys using my own pairing sometimes just to show what you guys are assuming. Hinata failed to protect her precious one cos there was _nothing_ [according to her admitted logic] she could do. It was suicidal as Naruto was not going to be killed. Either way, I already said enough and addressed this more than once. Quote someone else. I'm not going to take apart something like this piece by piece. To me it seemed rushed, rash, and immature. I don't think her love is necessarily more selfish than others. But I do believe it lacks understanding and literary justification. I didn't like how Hinata was used as a plot device for pairing fodder after 200+ of blatant ABSENCE, kthxbye. 



@Tyrannos- Cos she is not his important person according to the manga. That is my reason and sorry.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 17, 2009)

Of course she is.  Along with Kakashi, Iruka, and Sasuke.


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## Chippy (Mar 17, 2009)

I think Izzy is referring to the fact she's never been singled out as his important person, but Sasuke has.


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## gabzilla (Mar 17, 2009)

Naruto has been _in love_ with Sakura since chapter _3_?

Seriously?


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## Damaris (Mar 17, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



 I think we are to shelve them because Naruto's attraction to her has been constantly played for laughs, he has never claimed to be in love with her like Sakura and Hinata have said for Sasuke and Naruto, they have not had one explicitly romantic scene, they are at odds when it matters most (Jiraiya's death and Naruto's grief) and outside of thinking that she is good-looking he has never demonstrated sincere depth in _romantic_ feeling towards her.


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 17, 2009)

> Doesn't prove he's madly in love with Sakura?
> 
> Seriously man, why the hell do people say Naruto's not in love with Sakura, when he's always had an interest in her since Chapter 3? I swear people are so ignorant when it comes to romance in manga and anime they need a billboard sign that reads "I LOVE SO AND SO!"



This isn't a shoujo. 



> Naruto got more important things on his mind right now.



Well no shit, Sherlock.  Thanks for saying the obvious. XD  It was a throwaway line, doesn't mean the dates will be shown or anything.  It's easy to imply a date without showing the date, dur.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Tsunade and Sakura were worried about Naruto and _wanted_ to help him.  They couldn't help him because there were other people who they had to take care of, as well.  Tsunade's busy healing everyone in the village, and Sakura's tending to everyone else.  Again, my point remains: everyone wanted to do what Hinata did (sans love confession), but they were _unable_ to. 

And yes, her confession was partly a plot device; it was also a major leap in her characterization (luckily, we potentially have a lot more characterization coming up with the Cloud Village getting involved *cough*Hyuugastuff*cough*).  I actually do not like this plot device argument because practically _everything_ in Naruto is a plot device.  It's like arguing whether the sky is blue.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And why preytell, would Naruto accept Hinata's confession? Because she confessed?




*Spoiler*: __ 



lol, _why not?_  Gee, it's not like Naruto's ever gotten rejected before by someone who wouldn't give him a chance.  






> What about Naruto's feelings for Sakura? Are we to shelve them because Hinata's feelings are more important than his?



Firstly, Naruto's feelings for Sakura are almost always used as comic relief.  The only time they weren't was when Naruto said, "Gee, Sakura, you really like _Sasuke_, don't you?".  When Kishimoto starts treating NaruSaku more seriously, _I'll_ start taking NaruSaku more seriously.

Secondly, never said Hinata's feelings are more important that his.   Obviously, Naruto's feelings for either of the two girls will be revealed sooner or later and that will be the deciding factor for all of this (maybe, who knows).

The thing, though?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Both Sakura and Hinata have confessed to someone.  Sakura to Sasuke, Hinata to Naruto.  Naruto hasn't come close to passionately confessing his feelings to Sakura the same way Sakura has to Sasuke, or Hinata has to Naruto.

You said it yourself.  This isn't a shoujo.

There is no need for another confession when the couples are already set up.






Dammit, I keep forgetting to spoilertag my posts


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## The Duchess (Mar 17, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> The thing, though?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I love how
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's confession


 = NH canon = SS canon. 

You do realize that Sakura's confession was in Part One, when she was a different person?

Think realistically; assuming Sakura still kept all her feelings for Sasuke (which, obviously, she was only hiding 'cause she became mature in Part 2, while Naruto couldn't have kept his feelings in Part 2 'cause...well..that's just how it works, ok?!), what makes you think that Sasuke's ever going to return them? Never once has there been a moment where he thought about her directly and romantically. In fact, isn't he sort of on his way to destroy her village? Do you really think that once he comes to do that, Sakura's going to be all "Oh Sasuke, I love you even though you want to destroy my village and everyone in it!"?

It's crazy how much a blind eye is turned towards any NS moment (it can be only friendship, only friendship. Can't be anything else), while something that's already been established (Hinata's love) has been confirmed totally means instant canon. 

Somebody who's anti-NS wanna explain to me the post-KN4 scene with Yamato and Sakura? I've been told over and over that it's been used out of context, so could someone please tell me what Yamato really meant?

@Moonjump
No, I don't think Shikamaru's dad was referring to any exact pairing, like ShikaTema. Temari doesn't even appear in that chapter: Read from here on

He was just saying that tough women are always gentle to the guys they love. Anti-NSers complain that Sakura couldn't _possibly_ love Naruto, look at how much she beats him! Yeah, comic relief and Shikaku's little message. That's all I have to say.

Why is comic relief only apply to actual NS moments when Sakura beating up Naruto is SRS ABUZE GAIZ? It would be great if that were answered as well.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 17, 2009)

If NaruSaku is abusive SasuSaku is slaughter


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 17, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> I love how
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



O noez it's the facepalm smiley of doom!  When did I imply _that?_ lol, SS will become canon on its own merits without relying on NaruHina.  My point was that, 


*Spoiler*: __ 



if this is a shounen, why would there be a third passionate love confession between those two when there's already been two?  There's no point, especially when Naruto's feelings for Sakura have never been really, well, expanded upon.






> Think realistically; assuming Sakura still kept all her feelings for Sasuke (which, obviously, she was only hiding 'cause she became mature in Part 2, while Naruto couldn't have kept his feelings in Part 2 'cause...well..that's just how it works, ok?!), what makes you think that Sasuke's ever going to return them?



Think realistically; assuming Naruto still kept all his feelings for Sakura (which, obviously, he only brings up as comic relief in part two because he's become mature in Part 2, while Sakura couldn't have kept her feelings for Sasuke in Part 2 'cause...well..that's just how it works, ok?!), what makes you think Sakura's ever going to return them?



> Never once has there been a moment where he thought about her directly and romantically.



Never once has there been a moment where Sakura thought about Naruto romantically, even during the pivotal follow-up arcs to Yamato's supposed "Dr. Love" moment (_because a total stranger knows when Sakura loves someone!_).

(And, I didn't really want to start debating SS, but since you want some clarification, Sasuke hasn't really thought about Naruto directly, either, or anyone really other than Orochimaru, Itachi, etc; I MIGHT be wrong on this factor, buuuut I'm pretty sure I'm not -- he has to avenge his clan first before romance or even _friendship_ can enter his mind)



> It's crazy how much a blind eye is turned towards any NS moment (it can be only friendship, only friendship. Can't be anything else), while something that's already been established (Hinata's love) has been confirmed totally means instant canon.



See, the thing is that NaruSaku moments can be interpreted as friendship.  Hinata's feelings?  Not so much.  Again, Naruto's feelings for Sakura are _always used as comic relief_.  Hinata's aren't (except for the fainting spiel, which filler emphasizes, I believe?), even in Part One.  Kind of makes it difficult to have concrete hints for the NaruSaku ship.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 17, 2009)

@Gabzy - I woulden't say that, but it was...definitely started sometime in part 1, unfortunately none of the pairings ever get to have a moment where there are actual realizations, at least not at the moment.


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## Hikui (Mar 17, 2009)

ironblade_x1 said:


> ^I disagree.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Agreed. I was just trying to incorporate everyone's point of view into a post, and trying to be more objective. By out of the blue I meant unexpected, not that it didn't have the necessary built up. I think that is how Kishimoto intended it to happen all along.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 17, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> I love how
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, it was in part 1. But why put it in if nothing was going to come of it? That confession was in chapter 181; part 1 ended in chapter 238. Sakura had only one later appearance in part 1, and it was in the hospital scene where Sasuke was not present. Why then would she have been made to declare her love for Sasuke if her feelings faded over the timeskip? Kishimoto has said himself that he's not good at writing romance. So then why put in a scene that has the label 'romantic' all over it if he's not going to develop anything with said romantic scene?

And Hinata's confession does not in any way make NaruHina canon. It sets it on the road to becoming canon, but does not make the pairing canon.



> Think realistically; assuming Sakura still kept all her feelings for Sasuke (which, obviously, she was only hiding 'cause she became mature in Part 2, while Naruto couldn't have kept his feelings in Part 2 'cause...well..that's just how it works, ok?!), what makes you think that Sasuke's ever going to return them? Never once has there been a moment where he thought about her directly and romantically. In fact, isn't he sort of on his way to destroy her village? Do you really think that once he comes to do that, Sakura's going to be all "Oh Sasuke, I love you even though you want to destroy my village and everyone in it!"?



I sure hope that she doesn't. A reaction like that would just be a regression back into her fangirl stage and a destruction of all the growth she's had so far in the manga.

So far in the manga, Sakura and Naruto have kept wanting to save Sasuke no matter what he's done to them. Even after that meeting at Orochimaru's lair, both of them were crying in the next chapter, and I don't think it was because big bad Sasuke hurt their ickle feelings. They still want to return him to Konoha. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Even when Itachi asked Naruto what he would do if Sasuke attacked Konoha, Naruto said that he would find some way to save Sasuke and the village.


 Why should Sakura be any different? When Sasuke left, Naruto said that he considered him to be a brother, and Sakura said that she loved him. We've seen that Naruto still clearly thinks of Sasuke as a brother. Why then would Sakura's feelings have changed? You can say that she hasn't yet stated that she loves him in part 2, but when a character confesses their love in a story, it doesn't just vanish. Maybe in real life, but not in fiction. Feelings won't be brought up at all if they're only going to be tossed aside; something will come of them at some later date in the story.



> It's crazy how much a blind eye is turned towards any NS moment (it can be only friendship, only friendship. Can't be anything else), while something that's already been established (Hinata's love) has been confirmed totally means instant canon.



Actually, there were a great many people denying that Hinata actually loved Naruto, instead saying that she merely admired him.

For those of us that already believed that she loved him, it did change something as well. Naruto now knows.



> Why is comic relief only apply to actual NS moments when Sakura beating up Naruto is SRS ABUZE GAIZ? It would be great if that were answered as well.



No, it's not serious abuse. Her punches are what's comic relief. What they show though is that Sakura completely dominates the Naruto-Sakura relationship. Naruto does not stand up to her when she punches him. During the reintroduction at the start of part 2, she punches him back several feet, then starts shaking him while ranting to him. Kakashi even comments that she's scaring Konohamaru. And yet Naruto is not fighting back at all.


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## Hikui (Mar 17, 2009)

I know you said you didn't want people to keep answering, but sorry (?), this a debate. 


izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's purpose wasn't to commit suicide and make Naruto feel bad, honestly. She wanted to protect him, even if it meant she was going to die. Other than that, you talk about emotional effect but really, this is war, Naruto was going to feel trashed either way. Sure, Hinata was the last straw, and the fact that she confessed her love didn't help much. BUT Hinata wasn't about to think "I won't do something because it'll hurt Naruto-kun in the end", hell if it weren't for her he would've probably died either way (Pein was going to get Kyuubi out of Naruto, you know?) 

She has the right to express her feelings because they obviously exist, she's being selfish in that sense (we are all selfish when we 'burden' someone with our love confession) . If this logic is to apply to NaruSaku then Naruto will never express his romantic feelings MATURELY with a straight LOVE CONFESSION because he values Sakura's feelings more and doesn't want her to feel guilty about loving Sasuke (I don't mean she still loves Sasuke only that Naruto thinks/assumes it). 






izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Really? You really believe there was a way of protecting Naruto in that instance without risking someone's life? Because if you think about it if Hinata had done the same thing without the confession, she would've still risked her life, hence by your logic (or what I understand of it), Naruto would still owe her something/felt guilty. Same goes if it had been Sakura or any other character. 

And Hinata wasn't immature about it, at all. So if my father were to save my life because he loves me would it had been immature? or my friend/boyfriend? That's sort of the ultimate kind of sacrifice...

Hinata's confession and Sakura's confession are very different from each other. For one, Naruto wasn't leaving on his own will.Two, Hinata did something (sure she had a monologue and all...) and Sakura cried, begged and waited for Sasuke to knock her out. And that's why, now she wants to be involved in bringing him back not just asking Naruto to do it for her.






izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Could be. I still found it pitiful. But I won't absolutely condemn her cos after all, she's just a teenager and it's an extreme situation even if a ninja should know how to control their emotions.



*Spoiler*: __ 




So by your logic Sakura running to KN4 was stupid, right?
I don't think they're that different (except for the fact that Hinata confessed, yes?)






EarthBenderGal said:


> Somebody who's anti-NS wanna explain to me the post-KN4 scene with Yamato and Sakura? I've been told over and over that it's been used out of context, so could someone please tell me what Yamato really meant?



*goes re-read*

Kishimoto is being deliberately ambiguous, sometimes is not about the characters but the author's intention. It wasn't a red herring per see (not proven at least), he did it that way in order to keep it open and peek interest. That doesn't necessarily means Yamato was going to say something meaningful or something at all. 

Imho, He was obviously going to say she really cared for Naruto, not necessarily love because honestly, I doubt Yamato knows much about romantic love. Sakura obviously surprised and WTH are you talking about expression clearly states she has no idea what he's going on about. His words were pretty clear; Sakura was only thinking about how little she did for Naruto when he did so much for her, which was true. And Yamato is: feelings is what counts. And she's surprised because if she interpreted it as romantic it had never occurred to her. Then again I don't think Sakura needs someone else to point her out who she loves.  

So it could go either way really. Kishimoto is evil like that.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 17, 2009)

> = NH canon = SS canon.


 
It doesn't. And I'm getting irritated that people assume so. People enjoy the pairings for pretty different reasons, if anyone's ever thought to ask.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 17, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> It doesn't. And I'm getting irritated that people assume so. People enjoy the pairings for pretty different reasons, if anyone's ever thought to ask.



Even you feel this way missy?  I'd have to agree that the...arrogance is a bit intolerable whenever one assumes something is canon when nothing is set in stone at the moment either way.


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## Damaris (Mar 17, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Even you feel this way missy?  I'd have to agree that the...arrogance is a bit intolerable whenever one assumes something is canon when nothing is set in stone at the moment either way.



I think she was referring more towards people who believe that if you ship NaruHina you automatically ship SasuSaku and vice versa, which is utterly untrue.

But I agree with both of you--none of the Big 3 are requited canon pairings, so nothing is set in stone. And you can ship one of them, without shipping another.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 17, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Even you feel this way missy? I'd have to agree that the...arrogance is a bit intolerable whenever one assumes something is canon when nothing is set in stone at the moment either way.


 
None of the "Big Three" are canon; I am not pitting blame on anyone or any fandom. 



Marina Ismail said:


> I think she was referring more towards people who believe that if you ship NaruHina you automatically ship SasuSaku and vice versa, which is utterly untrue.
> 
> But I agree with both of you--none of the Big 3 are requited canon pairings, so nothing is set in stone. And you can ship one of them, without shipping another.


 
I was. Believing that one automatically supports the other and pegging them with insults under a false impression. Or debate one and suddenly begin comparing to the other and then discuss them as if they are both held to the same standards. And just because I like another pairing, does not mean I am crossing my fingers for canon so it can confirm the other. Due to the interrelations of the characters, it may make something more likely or make another impossible. 

I suppose what irritates me is that if you defend or enjoy both, people assume you are sideshipping. Which makes me laugh, too, because they're clueless about what pairings I enjoy aside from my stake in the main three. I think there enough reasons to support them on their own.


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## The Duchess (Mar 17, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> O noez it's the facepalm smiley of doom!  When did I imply _that?_ lol, SS will become canon on its own merits without relying on NaruHina.




There it goes again, the smiley of doom! 

So how would SS "become canon on its own merits"?



Spiffy is Glory said:


> My point was that,
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Funny, I don't remember mentioning anything about having another passionate love confession. At this point, it would be ridiculously shojo-like to have so many confessions. But I don't think that a pairing always needs a great declaration of love before becoming canon. Look at R/Hr from HP: no love confession yet it became canon. Kataang (from Avatar) became canon, and there wasn't any confession there either.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Think realistically;


The second I read this, I knew you where gonna throw everything I said back to my face without actually answering the question. 

sorry, I forgot you hate that smiley.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> assuming Naruto still kept all his feelings for Sakura *(which, obviously, he only brings up as comic relief in part two because he's become mature in Part 2, while Sakura couldn't have kept her feelings for Sasuke in Part 2 'cause...well..that's just how it works, ok?!)[/*QUOTE]
> Here we go.
> 
> The reason I mentioned the bolded in my post was because somebody (and several others) had previously said that Sakura still had feelings for Sasuke while Naruto didn't have feelings for her. I was pointing out the illogic of that statement. For some reason, you took that part of my post and twisted it into some weird sarcasm.
> ...


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ^
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Some of the other points have already been answered repeatedly, so I'll keep it simple.
What other time is Hinata supposed to confess?  Naruto has either been gone training or on missions for most of Part 2.  Not even in Konoha for the most part.  She's on a different team than he is, and the last time they were paired up wasn't really an opportune time for romance.  Whereas Sakura has been on more missions and downtime team 7 moments comparatively.
Quite frankly it was now or never.  I'm sure she wasn't happy about never being able to hear an answer from him, but expecting her to die without even saying those words is asking too much.


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## gabzilla (Mar 17, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> @Gabzy - I woulden't say that, but it was...definitely started sometime in part 1, unfortunately none of the pairings ever get to have a moment where there are actual realizations, at least not at the moment.



Started in part 1? Sure.

But saying Naruto was in love with Sakura in chapter 3 specially after what he did and considering what he had tried to do is ridiculous. Is like saying Sakura's crush on Sasuke was mature back then.



EarthBenderGal said:


> Somebody who's anti-NS wanna explain to me the post-KN4 scene with Yamato and Sakura? I've been told over and over that it's been used out of context, so could someone please tell me what Yamato really meant?



It's been explained to death.

Why don't you answer this?: Why would the captain that was willing to leave an _injured Naruto_ behind confuse her _already_ upset medic by talking about her obvious yet hidden feelings of true love for her friend just before paying _Orochimaru_ a visit?


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 17, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



izzy, I respect what you say in every post and appreciate that you never take it to the personal level, I just want to adress things that I think need to be. I will agree and disagree with you on somethings but it is just to lay out some things.

First of all, I think that in this place, the pairing logic of someone will always fail to affect the opinion of another. That?s how this place works.

I agree that Naruto is no longer alone anyomore. He has aquired by his efforts and spirit great friends that he never imagined to ever have. And yes it is indeed true that his major pain resides over the bond he shares with his brother Sasuke that he is desperately fighting to maintain intact, one of the bonds he treasures the most.

You also have a point that romantic love is not Naruto?s goal in life, he wants to become Hokage and earn the acknowledgement of the village, his peers and the one from Sasuke(although I think he already has it, when Sasuke put on his hitaiate, symbolizing that he and Naruto were equals in the VotE)

However, seeing Naruto asking countless times for a date with Sakura is a giveaway that he wants to expirience the same thing you questioned in your post; Naruto wants to know how it feels to be with someone of the opposite sex, he is curious about it and even when it appears to be just comedic relief in Part 2, Naruto still asks out Sakura. Right now it doesn?t matter if he is rejected or not, what I?m trying to say is that Uzumaki Naruto is and has always been *interested* in the opposite sex. If it was the opposite, Kishimoto will have dropped that at the start of Part 2, but it hasn?t been the case.

Also, about the assuming thing, I believe that everyone here assumes things that are still to be comfirmed, but unfortunately it is part of the debate, it is unavoidable. And I don?t see how we can be assuming to much and you in the other hand are not. Just like there is no proff that Naruto will reciprocate Hinata?s feelings, at the same time there are no kinds of proff that Sasuke and Naruto?s bond go far beyond friendship and reach the realm of romance(which is the argument you couragously and unshamefully support)


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 17, 2009)

Continued


*Spoiler*: __ 



About Naruto not going to be killed in chapter 437, I?m afraid you are overlooking an important piece of information: If Pain managed to get away of the village with Naruto under his power, Naruto eventually would die because the Kyuubi would be extracted from him.

Also:



Naruto?s whole body was impaled with _seven_ chakra rods courtesy of Pain. He was inmovolized, he was helpless, he could not escape nor move, etc. The perfect chance for Pain to carry him back to Amegakure or one of the Akatsuki?s bases and ultimately seal away the Kyuubi from him, thus ending Naruto?s life. Besides, Pain was going to use Bansho Ten?nin to take with him Naruto.



Ignore Hinata appearing behin Pain, I want you to look on Pain?s stance and the position of his hand. It is the same pose he makes when he is about to use Bansho Ten?nin. Pain was about to Bansho Ten?nined Naruto with all the rods glued to his body and that was going to be quite...um...painful.

You are right, Hinata?s action can be seen as suicide. But isn?that what a sacrifice is? An elegant way to die while you preserve the life of someone precious, important, irreplaceable to you? Even if it costs you your dreams or goals?

One of the most meaningful sacrifices that has taken place in _Naruto_ has been by no other than Naruto?s friend and rival.



In that moment, Sasuke had no idea why he did what he did. He didn?t understand how the hell he ended up taking a fatal and lethal blow for the dope of Naruto that was meant for him and not him, Uchiha Sasuke. He flashbacks on everything he has experienced with Naruto and gets to the conclusion that he used to hate him.



Naruto demands an answer of why Sasuke took the blow for him, he shouts at him that he never asked for his help. The only thing that Sasuke responds is that his body moved on its own. He did not ordered his body to serve as a pillow for the attack, it just happened. An self-reflex one could say that activates when your _friend/s_ is/are in danger.



Sasuke promised to himself that he wouldn?t stop breathing until the man who killed his family, Uchiha Itachi(Sasuke?s brother)was killed by Sasuke?s own hands. But here he was, agonizing from grave injuries that were not aimed to him at the first place but nevetheless took them. He "dies" while Haku remarks that Sasuke protected Naruto from his attack knowing that it was a trap for Naruto. At the end, Sasuke indeed is a shinobi that deserves respect, for putting his life on the line for another one while being fully aware of the consequences and aftermaths. Sasuke was one of the first to fulfill the theme of "protecting your precious people and never abandon them"

An admirable sacrifice.

When you say that Hinata failed to protect her precious one, do you say it because at the end Naruto tap in the Kyuubi?s chakra?



Because the exact thing happened here after Sasuke "died". He protected Naruto and later Naruto went Kyuubi for what Haku had done.

Hinata?s actions are no different to Sasuke?s back then. However, there is something different in this scenario.



In the panel that features Hinata?s mouth, she is seen biting her lip. Before this, Naruto asked her what she was doing there and told her to get away, that she was no match for Pain.

But she didn?t . The difference in this scene with the one that transcurred with Sasuke is that no one warned Sasuke to get away or to escape. Sasuke decided to protect Naruto and Hinata did the same thing but here she was _warned_, with Naruto telling her to get away was a chance for Hinata to go out of there and save herself.



*Hinata was given the chance, the opportunity, had the moment to escape by her own will and by listening Naruto?s words, but decided to stay and be there by her own will.* She knew better than anyone that it will be futile, none of her jutsus would work on Pain and that this were possibly her last moments of breathing, but after seeing all the battle, jumping in by her _own will_ to later escape and leave the person at the mercy of such a foe that saved her with his smile...

That would have been the most seflish act in _Naruto._

And about "Naruto never hearing that he was loved by someone and yada" argument...





I don?t understand why he seems so shocked or how many times he has had that disbelief expression on his face.




And to conclude, I seriously doubt Hinata was used as a plot device for pairing fodder when practically Naruto?s current goal is to rescue Sasuke(and looking at it in your personal preference view, it is because he loves him beyond frienship and SasuNaru will be canon. How that doesn?t makes Naruto pairing fodder if he has gone to the extreme of putting a halt to his Hokage dream if he cannot save Sasuke?)

And don?t worry, the canonization of any of the Big 3(if there is)will definately not put in jeopardice the SasuNaru bond in any way someone percieves it, brotherly or romantic. Nothing can and nothing will. I just wanted to voice my opinion regarding how similar and different were those moments and that Hinata?s sacrifice deserves as much respect as Sasuke?s was. Because none of them were selfish at all.

Hope you don?t take this seriously or personal.

And now I?ll hit the bed.


----------



## Hikui (Mar 18, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> ?Sakura, I can see that you really care about Naruto?
> 
> Well of course she cares about him, they're teammates and friends, aren't they? If that's all he was going to say, then why bother making the whole statement so ambigious?



It's pretty simple really. So we could be here and debate about pairings even when it isn't that important compared to the plot. See, after months we're still discussing the same argument. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Why hasn't he shown if Hinata will definately live through (though I think she will)? It's the same reason, to steer people's interest. The forum went crazy when that happened. 






EarthBenderGal said:


> ability to see?
> 
> Doesn't look very WTH look to me, looks more like a look of comprehension.
> 
> Or maybe she was surprised because somebody was blatantly pointing out what she could be feeling? It's possible Sakura has those feelings, but didn't know exactly what they were or how to deal with them.



To ME, It looks more like surprise not necesarily a 'now I get it, I've been blind all this time' look. But just as almost any other moment in Narusaku is all about interpretation. I guess. So I won't argue your point, we all choose what we want to see. It is still ambigious. We'll never know what she was thinking at that time. So don't assume.


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## HappyGawl (Mar 18, 2009)

Finally felt the need to post concerning the degrading of Hinata?s confession. Many have argued that the confession was misplaced, selfish, and even unneeded to the plot. I just wanted to put something into perspective; I think it?s something that some have, not forgotten, but set to the side in our watching and reading of this wonderful story. Okay, are we ready?

*This story?is about a bunch of ninjas fighting for their very lives*

Okay, now that that is finally brought up to light, let us talk about something that hasn?t really been brought up; the setting. The Naruto storyline is set in a time of constant battle and war. Hell, the children of Konoha are taught from a young age to handle themselves on the battlefield. That?s right, instead of teaching them about arts and others things, they teach them how to live in a setting that very much becomes a part of their lives:

*The Battlefield.*

As what one would expect of a story about ninjas, the most important events of the character?s lives happen on?yeah?the battlefield.. Saying that, it?s not uncommon for these following things to occur in a story about ninjas fighting for their very survival:

*Friendships can begin on the Battlefield.*
*Bonds can be begin and forged on the Battlefield.*
*LOVE can begin on the Battlefield.*

We all knew that Hinata was going to confess to Naruto at some point, did you honestly expect her to confess to him under a tree near a pretty lake with a street band playing romantic music in the back round?

*NO*

This is a story about ninjas, or course she?s going to express her feeling to Naruto on the battlefield. Yes, it was in the face of a super bad guy that, if he really wanted to, could turn her into human salsa, but that isn?t the point. Hinata?s confession is not out of character nor misplaced in the storyline and setting. If anything, it happened the only way it could have, with her jumping in, defending the man that she loves against a godly opponent on the battlefield.

To some of us, her actions could appear selfish, but taking into account the storyline and setting, there is no other way that she could have realistically, in this story, expressed her feelings to Naruto other than the way that she did. As to her saying that she?s selfish, of course she?s going to say that, she?s *Hinata*. She puts herself down way too much and she could interpret her feelings of wanting to protect Naruto as being selfish. Anyone who knows that character well would realize that. It?s irritating that some would place their own sense of what is selfish and childish on the situation when they are forgetting that this is a story about ninjas, in a setting that is no way related to ours, where the most important elements of the story and characters lives happen on the battlefield.

This is Shonen.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 18, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> Naruto has been _in love_ with Sakura since chapter _3_?
> 
> Seriously?



Care to prove me wrong?  



Marina Ismail said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I think we are to shelve them because Naruto's attraction to her has been constantly played for laughs, he has never claimed to be in love with her like Sakura and Hinata have said for Sasuke and Naruto, they have not had one explicitly romantic scene, they are at odds when it matters most (Jiraiya's death and Naruto's grief) and outside of thinking that she is good-looking he has never demonstrated sincere depth in _romantic_ feeling towards her.



I wouldn't be talking about laughs when Hinata's fainting and stutterings were the same as well.

And do quit with the double standards.   Up until recently, you NaruHinas were using blushings and other indirect gestures as evidence in how Hinata loved Naruto.   But when it comes to Naruto and Sakura, it doesn't apply.

Chapter 3 was pretty damn clear that Naruto loved Sakura.



Erendhyl said:


> No, it's not serious abuse. Her punches are what's comic relief. What they show though is that Sakura completely dominates the Naruto-Sakura relationship. Naruto does not stand up to her when she punches him. During the reintroduction at the start of part 2, she punches him back several feet, then starts shaking him while ranting to him. Kakashi even comments that she's scaring Konohamaru. And yet Naruto is not fighting back at all.



You realize Sakura only punched Naruto 3 times in Part 2, right?   And once was because he got in the way of her punching Sai.  (It's just as bad as Hinata's faintings.)   Come to think of it, when was the last time she hit Naruto in Part 1?  



gabzilla said:


> Started in part 1? Sure.
> 
> But saying Naruto was in love with Sakura in chapter 3 specially after what he did and considering what he had tried to do is ridiculous. Is like saying Sakura's crush on Sasuke was mature back then.



Yes, he went too far.  But shows that he loved Sakura so much, he wanted to get a kiss.   Then he had reality hit him that he was pushing her away, so he changed his ways.

However, it doesn't mean he gave up on her totally.   As we seen in Chapter 343, he very much was still in love with her.



gabzilla said:


> It's been explained to death.
> 
> Why don't you answer this?: Why would the captain that was willing to leave an _injured Naruto_ behind confuse her _already_ upset medic by talking about her obvious yet hidden feelings of true love for her friend just before paying _Orochimaru_ a visit?



And why would Yamato talk about Naruto in private, in giving up the Kyuubi to protect Sakura?


----------



## Damaris (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Care to prove me wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How 'bout you quit making assumptions? I don't ship NaruHina. I'm not for it or against it. I recognize it as a likely pairing, and I believe it will become canon, but that's it. It's not as if I'm in the FC or cheering for it to happen.

And no one loved anyone in Chapter 3. Naruto didn't love Sakura then. Sakura didn't love Sasuke. Sasuke didn't care about either of them.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 18, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> How 'bout you quit making assumptions? I don't ship NaruHina. I'm not for it or against it. I recognize it as a likely pairing, and I believe it will become canon, but that's it. It's not as if I'm in the FC or cheering for it to happen.



Hard to tell when you use their arguements.  



Marina Ismail said:


> And no one loved anyone in Chapter 3. Naruto didn't love Sakura then. Sakura didn't love Sasuke. Sasuke didn't care about either of them.



Say what?


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## Damaris (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Hard to tell when you use their arguements.



Sorry, but I go with the pairing that at least has some romantic basis, even if it isn't requited at this time (NaruHina) over "interpreting".





> Say what?



Naruto had a shallow fanboy crush on Sakura. Sakura had a shallow fangirl crush on Sasuke. Sasuke thought they were both annoying. It's pretty obvious emotions in the THIRD chapter of the manga should not be brought up as significant pairing evidence as the manga enters its 440th chapter.


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## Kurama (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Care to prove me wrong?




He loves her soooooooo much he's willing to make his rival look bad because she can't stand him. Right.



> I wouldn't be talking about laughs when Hinata's fainting and stutterings were the same as well.



You calling this humor? As for her second faint, it was an obvious tool to cut Naruto's meeting with Team 8 short. And the events leading up to the faint weren't the least bit humorous.



> And do quit with the double standards.   Up until recently, *you NaruHinas*


I lol'd. Seriously.



> were using blushings and other indirect gestures as evidence in how Hinata loved Naruto.



Thats because it IS evidence of her affection.



> But when it comes to Naruto and Sakura, it doesn't apply.



For Naruto [taking the feeding scene for example], indeed, it can be taken as evidence of an attraction, but it isn't presented with the intensity of Hinata's to consider it as serious. Not all blushes are created equal.

As for Sakura, her only notable blushes involve her asking about how much she's grown [she'd blush no matter who she was asking, but its Naruto who's coming back after 2.5 years], and admiring his supposed maturity, both of which are countered by his naivete, resulting in her taking back what she said.


> Chapter 3 was pretty damn clear that Naruto _liked_ Sakura.


Fix'd. 

It was pretty damn clear that Sakura liked Sasuke too. and pretty damn clear that Naruto annoyed her. And pretty damn clear they both annoyed Sasuke. just as it was pretty damn clear Hinata liked Naruto in chapter 42 [just look at that. the girl had it _bad_], in case his introduction of her always looking away when he looks at her wasn't clear enough.

Yea, it was clear he had interest in her, but when to take into account his damn near complete disregard of her in that context in favor of Sasuke, and the introduction of a girl [Hinata] that connects with him far deeper on that aspect [acknowledgment], all the while Sakura is growing closer to Sasuke and more _respectful_ of Naruto, and Naruto's next consideration of her in a romantic sense is to take notice of how serious hre feelings for Sasuke are, serious enough for him to back off, its kind of hard to just assume he somehow hid these oh so serious feelings as impulsive as he is when he barely paid her mind. 

Where on the other hand, Hinata's feelings for Naruto are consistently showcased whenever she is shown, and Sakura's for Sasuke were shown to gradually grow over the course of Part 1. Naruto's for Sakura has only seen light in half assed date requests and excitement upon the thought of his pretty female teammate feeding him. 

As for Sakura's feelings for Naruto, the only difference between the end of Part 1 [where she accepts him as a true friend and precious person] and where things stand in Part 2 is her knowledge of the Fox, and that moment in 296 where she tried to do something to help him, but failed. While we can go back and forth about whether her motivations were romantic or not, 143 chapters since Yamato's speech, with several interactions between them since, we haven't gotten a single instance of Sakura contemplating her feelings towards Naruto, or showing consideration of his feelings for her when he approaches her with them. what we do have is her in her room after the failed mission, with a picture in her lap, crying behind closed doors, with the moment both beginning and ending with a panel of the crescent moon, just as it did in chapter 181, and another scene where she flashes back to Naruto unconsciously acknowledging her value in the effort to rescue Sasuke, and for that reason she decides to help her injured teammate eat his ramen, and of course not get the least bit upset at being interrupted.




> You realize Sakura only punched Naruto 3 times in Part 2, right?



You realize Hinata only fainted ONCE in Part 2 right?



> And once was because he got in the way of her punching Sai.  (It's just as bad as Hinata's faintings.)



I repeat. Hinata fainted ONCE. As a device to cut Team 8's appearance short after some panels establishing Hina's affection is even stronger and that she wants to confront him with something more than admiration.



> Come to think of it, when was the last time she hit Naruto in Part 1?



When was Naruto around to pester her enough to desire to hit him?



> Yes, he went too far.  But shows that he loved Sakura so much, he wanted to get a kiss.



So wanting to kiss someone means you love them oh so intensely? So then Sakura loved Sasuke just as much then?



> Then he had reality hit him that he was pushing her away, so he changed his ways.



No. He ignored her in favor of his rivalry with Sasuke and everything else that caught his attention. He comes back to his team to realize a change in the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura. He backs down. What a gentleman to value his friends happiness above a petty crush he simply didn't have the focus to develop into anything deeper.



> However, it doesn't mean he gave up on her totally.   As we seen in Chapter 343, he very much was still in love with her.


Happy to have his pretty female teammate he has a lingering attraction to feed him? Yes. In love with? Far from it.




> And why would Yamato talk about Naruto in private, in giving up the Kyuubi to protect Sakura?



You forgot to put "and to save Sasuke".

"Protecting Sakura" is because she is his teammate, and likely to be around when he just carelessly lets the fox out to play. You need to stop trying to put a romantic angle in everything to do with the two of them. It makes you look desperate. He isn't "giving up the Kyuubi" for Sakura. He's no longer depending on its power so that he no longer puts his precious people at risk. It's quite evident the Fox will always be a tool in his arsenal, only to be utilized when absolutely necessary.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 18, 2009)

First off I appreciate the posts esp being expressed so level-mindedly, and find the comparison very interesting, but the main fact is that NaruHina is not like SasuNaru under key aspects. I bother to compare only the admiration/chasing complex similarity between Naruto and Hinata towards their "interested". Sorry if I had to do some trimming to make this fit together.



Sennin of Hardwork said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there is no proff that Naruto will reciprocate Hinata´s feelings, at the same time there are no kinds of proff that Sasuke and Naruto´s bond go far beyond friendship and reach the realm of romance(which is the argument you couragously and unshamefully support)



*Spoiler*: __ 






			
				from 2nd post said:
			
		

> the canonization of any of the Big 3(if there is)will definately not put in jeopardice the SasuNaru bond in any way someone percieves it, brotherly or romantic. Nothing can and nothing will.



It's a question of whose point can be supported the most. I don't see Naruto and Sasuke's relationship as mere friendship by any standards. I don't think a person should be romantically involved with them if they explicitly have more eyes for each other. That is just unfair to whoever they are with. I find Naruto and Sasuke romantically inappropriate for Sakura especially.

*Spoiler*: __ 



And basically any pairing fret I have is cos I have no wish to see Sasuke even dare being stimulated in a special way by someone who isn't Naruto. As has been emphasized by Orochimaru and Kabuto, Naruto changes Sasuke's heart and shifts him away from his revenge mode unlike any other. Helk the !DATABOOK #1 [mentioning it for the lulz] I have right in front of me says on Sasuke's profile "Naruto is able to lighten Sasuke's heart, filled with dark feelings. One day will he be able to pacify it completely!?"  I can't bear to see Naruto lose that. I feel their interaction goes _past platonic_. It's not that far-fetched for two people of the same-sex despite of presumed orientation to feel more than mere friendship for each other. _Love is human._ I'm not going to stop feeling accordingly about something just cos this isn't Nobel literature  I am headstrong about it cos I don't see anything missing except explicit lust [though Kishi leaves plenty of space for one's imagination]: _Sasuke is far more good-looking than that Sai Sakura! Not even comparable!!1one_






> You also have a point that romantic love is not Naruto´s goal in life, he wants to become Hokage and earn the acknowledgement of the village, his peers and the one from Sasuke(although I think he already has it, when Sasuke put on his hitaiate, symbolizing that he and Naruto were equals in the VotE)



Naruto doesn't want only that. He wants Sasuke next to him. He wants to be on equal standing to Sasuke for bigger reasons that are not mere dignity.



> Right now it doesn´t matter if he is rejected or not, what I´m trying to say is that Uzumaki Naruto is and has always been *interested* in the opposite sex. If it was the opposite, Kishimoto will have dropped that at the start of Part 2, but it hasn´t been the case.



Wasn't it because it's a red herring or something ?
Just cos Naruto continues to show an interest in girls - why should one ignore his concern for boys? He's a kid, you can't expect him to have his sexuality carved in stone that proves where his romantic interests truly lie. It's totally arbituary. People love to say, "Oh this isn't reality!" so why should this be any different. I happen to support SasuNaru cos it overshadows any sort of romantic tenancy or bond Naruto has towards Sakura or anyone. That isn't ordinary. Screwed up childhood or not - Naruto is ambiguously obsessed with Sasuke. So your points fail to hold anything against how I see it for that part.



Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Continued
> 
> The perfect chance for Pain to carry him back to Amegakure or one of the Akatsuki´s bases and ultimately seal away the Kyuubi from him, thus ending Naruto´s life. Besides, Pain was going to use Bansho Ten´nin to take with him Naruto.



Hinata doesn't know about Kyuubi or not?



> Pain was about to Bansho Ten´nined Naruto with all the rods glued to his body and that was going to be quite...um...painful.



I know Hinata suffers seeing Naruto getting hurt. One thing I really am annoyed about is debating here against NaruHina. I'm not used to it cos 1. I used to be a NaruHina supporter, 2. I still hold it in some favoriticism for what I think it's worth. 3. I simply did not like this "development". Kishi didn't take care to amplify practically anything of Hinata except her stalking Naruto and revolving herself around him. Disappointing. And I don't need to hear pairing logic beaten on me anymore to redeem such further disappointment. Many other people who could have cared less about pairings didn't like the chapter if you haven't noticed.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 18, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> You are right, Hinata´s action can be seen as suicide. But isn´that what a sacrifice is? An elegant way to die while you preserve the life of someone precious, important, irreplaceable to you? Even if it costs you your dreams or goals?



That SasuNaru protection scene does not have romantic pretension first off. Yeah you can stick the things side by side but in the end it won't change a general impression of a scene. Sasuke sacrificed his dream/ambitions, to save that person there. Give me the panel that shows what Hinata is sacrificing. "Assumptions" that giving up her life she is renouncing to something life-motivating doesn't do it for me. In that scene it is made as if Naruto was her life motivator - so there is nothing as special I could argue. That is what lack or rush development will do. I cannot change my impression for that reason. Sasuke's feelings were not encircled around Naruto in the way Hinata's were on Naruto. This is the difference - Sasuke admired/liked Naruto for who he was not only for his way of being in such a self-inspirational sense, by getting to know him AND having empathy that just grew stronger and stronger between them. It is a mutual relationship dictated by the laws of attraction. Any significant bond between people with involve such a dynamic - platonic or not. As I already mentioned, I have already addressed the matter many times therefore did not adequately express ANY supported opinion in that post I made. I cannot EXPLAIN with mere words a reaction that couldn't be twisted for the sake of arbituary reasoning such as that which is being made. I said specifically I do not wish to dissect it, cos my feelings are not based on the scene as they are on what has happened up until then. I've seen people die for Naruto cos they understood his loneliness AND value as a person [including far more set up circumstances] which I think on Hinata's side was rushed. She never approached the lonely boy she had always watched despite whatever acknowledgment she had. Sasuke did. Naruto confirms he did more than anyone else. Yes, NaruHina could develop and they could spend more time together, but he has seen now for the SECOND time Hinata making a stand. I do not believe he will fall into romantic interest now.



> When you say that Hinata failed to protect her precious one, do you say it because at the end Naruto tap in the Kyuubi´s chakra?



Sasuke did not die uselessly. They were BOTH in that fight and Sasuke stopped the needles from pwning Naruto. Hinata's gesture simply let Pein play with Naruto's emotions and push him over the edge. This is mere comparison and not nessarily a criticism. I've said more than thrice that it is not about the consquences. It's about how the gesture was performed and what position it puts Naruto in due to its romantic claim.

*Spoiler*: __ 





> And about "Naruto never hearing that he was loved by someone and yada" argument...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Naruto was in disbelief when Sasuke sacrificed for him as well. He cried unlike when Iruka or Hinata did it [not necessarily assuming anything with that]. And Naruto is surprised cos guess what, he is someone who can empathize with such words and had no friggen idea she would have gone to such an extent just for him like that esp since they never had mutual development of significant nature compared to other relationships.



> And to conclude, I seriously doubt Hinata was used as a plot device for pairing fodder when practically Naruto´s current goal is to rescue Sasuke(and looking at it in your personal preference view, it is because he loves him beyond frienship and SasuNaru will be canon. How that doesn´t makes Naruto pairing fodder if he has gone to the extreme of putting a halt to his Hokage dream if he cannot save Sasuke?)



I never said Naruto HASN'T become by any means pairing fodder in Part 2 for SasuNaru. Which is why I support NARUSasu  Kidding aside just cos I am aiming the bat at NaruHina now doesn't mean I can't do the same thing for my pairing. Anyway the difference is that Naruto and Sasuke's bond is too developed since the very beginning, consistantly, subtly, to ever truly deserve the same condemnation I am making towards NaruHina. 'Romantically pathetic' doesn't enter SasuNaru's vocabulary cos it's never been established as romantic to begin with. It is "undefinable".

And no, I don't think SasuNaru will be canon, more than it already is  if that makes any sense. I am hoping for a status quo. I've been beaten with the shounen stick too many times to dare hope again that it will become canon. Don't need it anyway as much as I'd like to see the Big 3 RIP.



> I just wanted to voice my opinion regarding how similar and different were those moments and that Hinata´s sacrifice deserves as much respect as Sasuke´s was. Because none of them were selfish at all.



It was immature imo and mostly any onesided romance which is unfounded on a mutual level will have lotssss of pretention - and "idolization". Don't get me wrong on this - I don't snob her feelings for Naruto. I simply don't think it's comparable to something mutual/empathic and which developed from hatred like SasuNaru. Sasuke and Naruto saw each other without any romantic bias. Which is why the sacrifice is more meaningful. Which is why Sakura running to KN4 was meaningful. If you can grasp the reason WHY I didn't like 437 after reading this post, feel free to let me know cos the more I try to explain the farther I get from satisfactorily justifying it. After all, we are interpreting a story by our own personal experience and that is why I tried to put an end to various approaches I was getting. With so few chapters all this "NEW" reasoning is too arbituary and wanton for me to bother debating against it anymore.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Care to prove me wrong?







Tyrannos said:


> Yes, he went too far.  But shows that he loved Sakura so much, he wanted to get a kiss.   Then he had reality hit him that he was pushing her away, so he changed his ways.



That's not love. That's attraction. That's a crush. You don't trick somebody you love to get a kiss. You don't use her feelings to get what you want.

Naruto didn't love Sakura back then. He matured and he learned to really care about her. The Naruto that gave up on her because he respected her feelings for Sasuke would never try to do what the Naruto in chapter 3 did.



Tyrannos said:


> However, it doesn't mean he gave up on her totally. As we seen in Chapter 343, he very much was still in love with her.



You mean "Sakura-chan, date?"

The last time we saw Naruto being serious about her feelings for Sakura was when he gave her up.



Tyrannos said:


> And why would Yamato talk about Naruto in private, in giving up the Kyuubi to protect Sakura?



You think Yamato wants Naruto to give up the Kyuubi mainly to protect Sakura?


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 18, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> Sorry, but I go with the pairing that at least has some romantic basis, even if it isn't requited at this time (NaruHina) over "interpreting".



Isn't that what we all are doing?   Each pairing has their own moments.



Marina Ismail said:


> Naruto had a shallow fanboy crush on Sakura. Sakura had a shallow fangirl crush on Sasuke. Sasuke thought they were both annoying. It's pretty obvious emotions in the THIRD chapter of the manga should not be brought up as significant pairing evidence as the manga enters its 440th chapter.



Even if it's a crush, it's still love.   And I wouldn't throw it out because it's on Chapter 3, for it establishes NaruSaku and SasuSaku.



kyuubi425 said:


> He loves her soooooooo much he's willing to make his rival look bad because she can't stand him. Right.



And yet:  this



kyuubi425 said:


> You calling this humor? As for her second faint, it was an obvious tool to cut Naruto's meeting with Team 8 short. And the events leading up to the faint weren't the least bit humorous.



Yes, it was humorous, because she was freaking out in the third panel.

And the lead up isn't humorous?  

Now that's funny in itself, seeing how Naruto was going WTF at Kiba not noticing Akamaru is the size of a small horse not and that he's riding him, and how Shino was all grumpy that Naruto didn't know who he was at first.



kyuubi425 said:


> I lol'd. Seriously.



Well GFY.  



kyuubi425 said:


> Thats because it IS evidence of her affection.



Yeah, that's right.  When Hinata blushes it's love, but when Sakura blushes around Naruto, it's all for Sasuke.




kyuubi425 said:


> For Naruto [taking the feeding scene for example], indeed, it can be taken as evidence of an attraction, but it isn't presented with the intensity of Hinata's to consider it as serious. Not all blushes are created equal.
> 
> As for Sakura, her only notable blushes involve her asking about how much she's grown [she'd blush no matter who she was asking, but its Naruto who's coming back after 2.5 years], and admiring his supposed maturity, both of which are countered by his naivete, resulting in her taking back what she said.



There you go, unequal opportunity. 

But that's not enough to discount NaruSaku by a longshot.




kyuubi425 said:


> Fix'd.
> 
> It was pretty damn clear that .....  ....and of course not get the least bit upset at being interrupted.



There, I fixed yours.  Too much rambling.  

You could've just solved it by simply saying, Naruto likes Sakura, Sakura likes Sasuke, Hinata likes Naruto.   

There we go, back to square one.



kyuubi425 said:


> You realize Hinata only fainted ONCE in Part 2 right?



Yep, and twice altogether. 



kyuubi425 said:


> I repeat. Hinata fainted ONCE. As a device to cut Team 8's appearance short after some panels establishing Hina's affection is even stronger and that she wants to confront him with something more than admiration.



Nope, once in Part 2.   Twice throughout the manga.  



kyuubi425 said:


> When was Naruto around to pester her enough to desire to hit him?



Oh, you mean the beginning of the Chuunin Exam?   Awfully long time between that last one and the one in Chapter 245. 



kyuubi425 said:


> So wanting to kiss someone means you love them oh so intensely? So then Sakura loved Sasuke just as much then?



Never denied SasuSaku.   Has more of a possibility than NaruHina, that's all.



kyuubi425 said:


> No. He ignored her in favor of his rivalry with Sasuke and everything else that caught his attention. He comes back to his team to realize a change in the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura. He backs down. What a gentleman to value his friends happiness above a petty crush he simply didn't have the focus to develop into anything deeper.



Funny, the PotLT and Naruto giving Sakura hope seem to disagree with that statement.



kyuubi425 said:


> Happy to have his pretty female teammate he has a lingering attraction to feed him? Yes. In love with? Far from it.



Funny, Naruto screaming "You're ruining the mood!"  Sure seems like he has more than just a crush to me.



kyuubi425 said:


> You forgot to put "and to save Sasuke".
> 
> "Protecting Sakura" is because she is his teammate, and likely to be around when he just carelessly lets the fox out to play. You need to stop trying to put a romantic angle in everything to do with the two of them. It makes you look desperate. He isn't "giving up the Kyuubi" for Sakura. He's no longer depending on its power so that he no longer puts his precious people at risk. It's quite evident the Fox will always be a tool in his arsenal, only to be utilized when absolutely necessary.



Even so, he was doing it for her.



gabzilla said:


>



Careful Gabz, you gunna get wrinkles.  



gabzilla said:


> That's not love. That's attraction. That's a crush. You don't trick somebody you love to get a kiss. You don't use her feelings to get what you want.
> 
> Naruto didn't love Sakura back then. He matured and he learned to really care about her. The Naruto that gave up on her because he respected her feelings for Sasuke would never try to do what the Naruto in chapter 3 did.



True, but like with SasuSaku and NaruHina, a crush can develop into love.



gabzilla said:


> You mean "Sakura-chan, date?"
> 
> The last time we saw Naruto being serious about her feelings for Sakura was when he gave her up.



Even though he did, we still see that Naruto cares greatly for her.   But he knows his limits.

And what's to say that won't be the key to Sakura's heart. 



gabzilla said:


> You think Yamato wants Naruto to give up the Kyuubi mainly to protect Sakura?



Hard to disagree with the manga, so what it was also to bring back Sasuke.  Wouldn't have mattered anyhow since the Sharingan clips the Kyuubi.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Careful Gabz, you gunna get wrinkles.



By debating with you? I doubt it. 



Tyrannos said:


> True, but like with SasuSaku and NaruHina, a crush can develop into love.



I missed the part where I say it couldn't. I said Naruto didn't love Sakura in chapter 3. That's it.



Tyrannos said:


> Even though he did, we still see that Naruto cares greatly for her.   But he knows his limits.



Eh... sure. He cared so much he was willing to use her feelings to get a kiss. That changed, but in that chapter he did not love her.



Tyrannos said:


> And what's to say that won't be the key to Sakura's heart.



So far it hasn't. 



Tyrannos said:


> Hard to disagree with the manga, so what it was also to bring back Sasuke.  Wouldn't have mattered anyhow since the Sharingan clips the Kyuubi.



Yamato doesn't want Naruto to use Kyuubi because he could hurt his friend_s_ and because it hurts Naruto himself.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 18, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> By debating with you? I doubt it.



Well that's a good thing, in concidering how beautiful you are.



gabzilla said:


> I missed the part where I say it couldn't. I said Naruto didn't love Sakura in chapter 3. That's it.
> 
> Eh... sure. He cared so much he was willing to use her feelings to get a kiss. That changed, but in that chapter he did not love her.



Yep, all that love in Chapter 3, never existed.  



gabzilla said:


> So far it hasn't.



Yep, like a confession is going to be enough for another.  



gabzilla said:


> Yamato doesn't want Naruto to use Kyuubi because he could hurt his friend_s_ and because it hurts Naruto himself.



Not exactly.

Yamato didn't want to use the Kyuubi because Tsunade and Jiraiya said it was bad for Naruto.  All he did was suggest to Naruto that was better off in using his own strength, which would result in people not getting hurt.  And Naruto understood.

Which clearly goes into the "protecting those close to you" theme.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Well that's a good thing, in concidering how beautiful you are.







Tyrannos said:


> Yep, all that love in Chapter 3, never existed.



In chapter 3? Sakura didn't love Sasuke and Naruto didn't love Sakura. Their feelings matured with time, but at that point both were selfish and childish.



Tyrannos said:


> Yep, like a confession is going to be enough for another.



Never said that. 



Tyrannos said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> Yamato didn't want to use the Kyuubi because Tsunade and Jiraiya said it was bad for Naruto.  All he did was suggest to Naruto that was better off in using his own strength, which would result in people not getting hurt.  And Naruto understood.
> 
> Which clearly goes into the "protecting those close to you" theme.



Last time I checked "those close to you" =/=Sakura alone"

Though it seems Naruto was destined to use the Kyuubi anyway.


----------



## Kurama (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Even if it's a crush, it's still love.



No, it isn't.



> And yet:  Pain flew off at a clear angle away from Tsunade.


Right. You do realize the page I posted comes two pages after that one?



> Yes, it was humorous, because she was freaking out in the third panel.


I meant the top panel [and the near full page of hesitation preceding it]. The third is an obvious cover up because she isn't ready to come out with her feelings yet. It doesn't discount the intensity of the top panel.



> And the lead up isn't humorous?


"I heard he was back but...what do I do... I'm not ready... I haven't seen him in three years... what do I say...um...um..."

No, it isn't.



> Now that's funny in itself, seeing how Naruto was going WTF at Kiba not noticing Akamaru is the size of a small horse not and that he's riding him, and how Shino was all grumpy that Naruto didn't know who he was at first.


That had nothing to do with Hinata's thoughts before Naruto came up.



> Yeah, that's right.  When Hinata blushes it's love, but when Sakura blushes around Naruto, it's all for Sasuke.


...

You need to stop trying to argue double standards -snip-



> There you go, unequal opportunity.


It's the truth. Bear with it.



> But that's not enough to discount NaruSaku by a longshot.


Sakura's blatant romantic disinterest and Naruto's lack of effort does well enough.



> There, I fixed yours.  Too much rambling.
> 
> You could've just solved it by simply saying, Naruto likes Sakura, Sakura likes Sasuke, Hinata likes Naruto.
> 
> There we go, back to square one.


I applaud your attempt to be witty, but  at the sad excuse for a lack of counter. When you can't counter it, just simplify it taking out all the factors establishing the differences so you can go back to claiming double standards and hypocrisy like a broken record.



> Yep, and twice altogether.


Point being?




> Nope, once in Part 2.   Twice throughout the manga.


Nitpicking. I was referring to Part 2 genius. The first faint was upon seeing his bandaged body after VotE. She's a worrywart, what do you expect? This still does not discount the intensity of her feelings. Rather it enhances it.



> Oh, you mean the beginning of the Chuunin Exam?   Awfully long time between that last one and the one in Chapter 245.


Yea, because Naruto wasn't paying Sakura any sort of mind to earn a punch in the first place.



> Never denied SasuSaku.   Has more of a possibility than NaruHina, that's all.


Care to explain how exactly?


*Spoiler*: __ 



The ball is entirely in NH's court at the moment. Sakura won't fail in saving Hinata's life. Naruto will confront her after the battle. SasuSaku has to go through Sasuke's vengeance against Konoha. NaruSaku needs Naruto to go back to considering Sakura as a romantic possibility, but thats as good as shot now, especially since she simply hasn't given him romantic consideration.





> Funny, the PotLT and Naruto giving Sakura hope seem to disagree with that statement.


Disagree how? He gives her hope that they will get Sasuke back. How exactly does this disagree with Naruto backing down?



> Funny, Naruto screaming "You're ruining the mood!"  Sure seems like he has more than just a crush to me.


You're really serious. 


> Even so, he was doing it for her.


No, he wasn't. He was doing it for alot more than Sakura, and far from because he has a crush on her. That's like saying Sakura wants Sasuke back solely because of her romantic feelings for him.



> True, but like with SasuSaku and NaruHina, a crush can develop into love.


Sure it can, if one devotes focus to said crush for it to develop into something more than the pettiness it was in the beginning of the story. Unless you're arguing the more Sakura fell in love with Sasuke on panel, the more Naruto fell in love with Sakura in between the panels, since we see next to nothing regarding growth of romantic feelings on his part. Just a little hurt feelings when he realizes how close she and Sasuke have grown while he was dealing with things outside of the team.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 18, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> In chapter 3? Sakura didn't love Sasuke and Naruto didn't love Sakura. Their feelings matured with time, but at that point both were selfish and childish.



Well by that logic, then Chapter 4 doesn't mean anything as well.  



gabzilla said:


> Never said that.



Nope, but I did!  



gabzilla said:


> Last time I checked "those close to you" =/=Sakura alone"



Never said it wasn't.



gabzilla said:


> Though it seems Naruto was destined to use the Kyuubi anyway.



Well that was pretty obvious when 370 came out.  



kyuubi425 said:


> No, it isn't.



Of course it is, it's just not definitive love.



kyuubi425 said:


> Right. You do realize the page I posted comes two pages after that one?



You realize my point is that Naruto realized his feelings for her, but he wanted to know what she thought of him.



kyuubi425 said:


> I meant the top panel [and the near full page of hesitation preceding it]. The third is an obvious cover up because she isn't ready to come out with her feelings yet. It doesn't discount the intensity of the top panel.



Please, it still was humorous.  Even the Animators saw that and made the reunion with a joke with her keep passing out.



kyuubi425 said:


> "I heard he was back but...what do I do... I'm not ready... I haven't seen him in three years... what do I say...um...um..."
> 
> No, it isn't.



Yes it was, it was building up to her fainting, because she was panicing.



kyuubi425 said:


> That had nothing to do with Hinata's thoughts before Naruto came up.



Can't deny it, that whole reunion was one big joke.   Just like Naruto's reunion with the members of Team 10.



kyuubi425 said:


> ...
> 
> You need to stop trying to argue double standards.



Well if that was a foolish statement, then you should applaud yourself.  Because I took that from one of your own arguements.   So if anyone is to blame, it's yourself.



kyuubi425 said:


> It's the truth. Bear with it.



Yep, so don't go crying to me when Hinata gets screwed, well for the third time.  



kyuubi425 said:


> Sakura's blatant romantic disinterest and Naruto's lack of effort does well enough.



We shall see.



kyuubi425 said:


> I applaud your attempt to be witty, but at the sad excuse for a lack of counter. When you can't counter it, just simplify it taking out all the factors establishing the differences so you can go back to claiming double standards and hypocrisy like a broken record.



Funny, I did answer that.  All you basicaly said was Naruto loves Sakura, Sakura loves Sasuke, Hinata loves Naruto.  That's all.

But if you wish to assume I was still avoiding it, then all the power in the world to you.  



kyuubi425 said:


> Point being?



Just as much point as you all keep bringing up Sakura punching Naruto.  



kyuubi425 said:


> Nitpicking. I was referring to Part 2 genius. The first faint was upon seeing his bandaged body after VotE. She's a worrywart, what do you expect? This still does not discount the intensity of her feelings. Rather it enhances it.



Because it's hard to nitpick when that is practically all to Hinata.



kyuubi425 said:


> Yea, because Naruto wasn't paying Sakura any sort of mind to earn a punch in the first place.



Yep, and he learned from that, didn't he?  



kyuubi425 said:


> Care to explain how exactly?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



No pairing is ahead of another until that definitive requiting scene, buddy.



kyuubi425 said:


> Disagree how? He gives her hope that they will get Sasuke back. How exactly does this disagree with Naruto backing down?



Because Naruto doesn't give up.  



kyuubi425 said:


> You're really serious.



Oh that's right, NaruSaku's nothing but red herring.  



kyuubi425 said:


> No, he wasn't. He was doing it for alot more than Sakura, and far from because he has a crush on her. That's like saying Sakura wants Sasuke back solely because of her romantic feelings for him.



*"If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were."* - Richard Bach.

Learn it.



kyuubi425 said:


> Sure it can, if one devotes focus to said crush for it to develop into something more than the pettiness it was in the beginning of the story. Unless you're arguing the more Sakura fell in love with Sasuke on panel, the more Naruto fell in love with Sakura in between the panels, since we see next to nothing regarding growth of romantic feelings on his part. Just a little hurt feelings when he realizes how close she and Sasuke have grown while he was dealing with things outside of the team.



Oh there is romantic growth, but some people just dislike it so much that they are blind to it.


----------



## Damaris (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Oh there is romantic growth, but some people just dislike it so much that they are blind to it.



What is this romantic growth you keep mentioning? I want to see actual proof: a page of the manga where Naruto demonstrates sincere development in loving Sakura _romantically_, not an instance where he think she's pretty or cares for her as a team mate.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> *"If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were."* - Richard Bach.


 
And Sakura has not gone back. I doubt she will, since her sights have been set on someone else for quite a long time, romantically-relative.


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 18, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Well by that logic, then Chapter 4 doesn't mean anything as well.



On the contrary. I believe chapter 3 was a grow up call for both Naruto and Sakura. That's when they start growing up.



Tyrannos said:


> Nope, but I did!



Aw, don't tell me you believe Hinata confessing means Naruhina is canon now!





Tyrannos said:


> Never said it wasn't.



RLY?



			
				You said:
			
		

> And why would Yamato talk about Naruto in private, *in giving up the Kyuubi to protect Sakura?*







Tyrannos said:


> Well that was pretty obvious when 370 came out.



_Really?_ I think some people still believe Naruto should't use Kyuubi... even after reading the latest spoilers.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 18, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> What is this romantic growth you keep mentioning? I want to see actual proof: a page of the manga where Naruto demonstrates sincere development in loving Sakura _romantically_, not an instance where he think she's pretty or cares for her as a team mate.



Please visit the NaruSaku FC, I'm very sure there are plenty of people that would oblige with that request.  

Or you could visit the previous incarnations of this thread, which said moments were already discussed to death.  



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> And Sakura has not gone back. I doubt she will, since her sights have been set on someone else for quite a long time, romantically-relative.



Don't be so presumptuous, Miss Pulchritudinous.   The manga isn't over just yet.


----------



## Kanai (Mar 19, 2009)

NaruHina Fans, this is how the story will end! 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata confesses. Sakura heals her. She lives. Naruto realizes he loves her. 




SasuSaku Fans:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sasuke kills elders. Needs someone to restore the clan with. Finds Sakura. <3




NaruSaku Fans:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto doesn't like Hinata but treats her as a friend. Kiba loves Hinata. Naruto <3 Sakura, vice versa. 




///thread.


----------



## Emily (Mar 19, 2009)

ShiinsetsuChan said:


> NaruHina Fans, this is how the story will end!
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Um, how about a no? I'm quite speechless, you'd need to be reading something else to see all of that happening. Although I admit I could see it all aside from the SS part.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 19, 2009)

ShiinsetsuChan said:


> NaruHina Fans, this is how the story will end!
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



































And no. I don't see SasuSaku ending in that way. What, a baby machine named Sakura? That's quite degrading and humiliating.


----------



## ironblade_x1 (Mar 19, 2009)

Caran said:


> Um, how about a no? I'm quite speechless, you'd need to be reading something else to see all of that happening. Although I admit I could see it all aside from the SS part.



Cheater.

You aren't supposed to read all three, you're supposed to read the topic that applies.

Unless you're a fan of all three, in which you have my full approval. Foursome ftw


----------



## kubik (Mar 19, 2009)

> That's quite degrading and humiliating.


And who are you to judge? If she is happy with that so be it.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 19, 2009)

kubik said:


> And who are you to judge? If she is happy with that so be it.



Would be nice to see where "restoring" clan is treated as if it actually means having babies 

If he was so interested he could have treated her better.

I feel like saying THIS IS SHOUNEN 

Since when is it Sasuke's goal to get laid by a girl he clearly said he couldn't stay with [without giving her any romantic predisposition at all]?

Makes a lot of sense.

Any yeah it basically screws Sakura's development for it to happen in such a manner


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Don't be so presumptuous, Miss Pulchritudinous. The manga isn't over just yet.


 
How is it presumptuous? I simply thought if there were romantic implications for NaruSaku, there would be something a little less vague by now.

I wasn't aware that I liked SasuSaku so she could be a baby-maker and he could to treat her like crap.  --_____--

So does anyone know a legitimate reason for fans enjoying it? Doesn't seem as if anyone does.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 19, 2009)

kubik said:


> And who are you to judge? If she is happy with that so be it.


Dear sir/madam,

Any woman with some dignity and self-respect would not accept to be a man's DNA spreading tool/sex tool.
Besides, he hasn't even shown sexual interest in her. Why wouldn't he 'use' another woman to revive his clan? Why not, let's say... Karin, the arch-enemy of SasuSaku?

Confused,
-KN


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 19, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> How is it presumptuous? I simply thought if there were romantic implications for NaruSaku, there would be something a little less vague by now.



Vague, I disagree.   Because it's not obvious like a confession, doesn't mean it's not there.  

Remember, "Look underneath the underneath."


----------



## Karmillina (Mar 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Vague, I disagree.   Because it's not obvious like a confession, doesn't mean it's not there.
> 
> Remember, "Look underneath the underneath."



Sometimes, underneath the underneath, there is nothing.

It's interesting how every proof in favor of NaruSaku is "underneath the underneath". Why isn't it, like, kind of obvious? Because if we talk about obvious feelings, Hinata's are the most obvious as of right now, and don't need comic relief to show the "underneath the underneath".

Again, not saying NaruHina is here because Hinata confessed, just wondering, if Hinata's feelings towards Naruto are so obvious, why aren't Naruto or Sakura's feelings obvious as well?


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

Karmillina said:


> Sometimes, underneath the underneath, there is nothing.
> 
> It's interesting how every proof in favor of NaruSaku is "underneath the underneath". Why isn't it, like, kind of obvious? Because if we talk about obvious feelings, Hinata's are the most obvious as of right now, and don't need comic relief to show the "underneath the underneath".
> 
> Again, not saying NaruHina is here because Hinata confessed, just wondering, if Hinata's feelings towards Naruto are so obvious, why aren't Naruto or Sakura's feelings obvious as well?


With Naruto's feelings towards Sakura--it is called:, anticipation,suspense, climatic, growth. With the other it is called: fodder


----------



## Karmillina (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> With Naruto's feelings towards Sakura--it is called:, anticipation,suspense, climatic, growth. With the other it is called: fodder



So a love declaration made with a lot of effort and showing huge development, before sacrificing onself in such a climatic moment in he middle of a battle with one of the toughest guys to save the loved one's ass (with the extra of causing the loved one to trigger KN6 out of rage) is called fodder :3 and the comic relief is tr00 wub.


*fod⋅der*
   /ˈfɒdər/  [*fod*-er]
–noun
1. 	coarse food for livestock, composed of entire plants, including leaves, stalks, and grain, of such forages as corn and sorghum.
2. 	people considered as readily available and of little value: _cannon fodder._
3. 	raw material: _fodder for a comedian's routine. _


Seems like the definition of "fodder" is quite subjective and it's used too arbitrarily in here n___n Not to mention it's an insult to an author who probably thought about this scene for a long, long time, as an important part of the battle between Naruto and Pein. If it were Sakura instead of Hinata, I'm pretty sure you'd be all "it's canon!"

After all, who are we to call serious, climatic scenes "fodder"? I thought we were using the manga canon as primary evidence?


----------



## Kek (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> With Naruto's feelings towards Sakura--it is called:, anticipation,suspense, climatic, growth.



When there's Sauce. 

Any other time its called; hardly focused on or "Sakura, date?"


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

Now that I am thinking about it...fodder and disappointed that her life meant nothing to herself. She could have invited him for dinner ya know *N*ull*H*umdrum <--that's what it means to me. IMO.


----------



## Karmillina (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> Now that I am thinking about it...fodder and disappointed that her life meant nothing to herself. She could have invited him for dinner ya know *N*ull*H*umdrum <--that's what it means to me. IMO.



I think you need to read the manga again and take notes on Hinata's development before throwing arguments without backup. This topic isn't about "opinions". It's about "evidence".

So now that we jumped to the evidence part, explain how is 437 "Fodder". Because I read it a lot but nobody explains why is it fodder, and I fail to notice how was Hinata's sacrifice useless. :3


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 19, 2009)

Karmillina said:


> Sometimes, underneath the underneath, there is nothing.



Depends.  To one, underneath the underneath is nothing.  But to others, underneath the underneath, leads to something very well worth it!  



Karmillina said:


> It's interesting how every proof in favor of NaruSaku is "underneath the underneath". Why isn't it, like, kind of obvious? Because if we talk about obvious feelings, Hinata's are the most obvious as of right now, and don't need comic relief to show the "underneath the underneath".
> 
> Again, not saying NaruHina is here because Hinata confessed, just wondering, if Hinata's feelings towards Naruto are so obvious, why aren't Naruto or Sakura's feelings obvious as well?



Well of course Hinata's feelings for Naruto always were shown, her blushing, figiting, fainting, etc.  But what more is there to Hinata?  (Besides really nice boobs?  )

Now as for NaruSaku, why it's not transparent?   Perhaps one looked at the sun too long and now blind to what's going around them? 

But all in all, as we said all along, Kishi's have been taking the slow buildup approach.  Sakura outright hating Naruto's guts, and transitioning to where we all are now, with Kishi now hinting that Sakura might very well could be falling in love with Naruto.

So who is the winner?  Only time will tell?


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

Try Google, "pairing fodder"
 In part 2:The manga shows Hinata  "Naruto-kun" and "We'll do our best" NO INTERACTIONS between them. When she worried, Naruto ignored her  He was focused on Tobi to even hear her. Yup...that's *N*ull *H*umdrum alright.


----------



## Karmillina (Mar 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Depends.  To one, underneath the underneath is nothing.  But to others, underneath the underneath, leads to something very well worth it!



Perhaps not even the author thought about an "underneath the underneath". For example, when I want some "underneath the underneath" I pick Utena.



Tyrannos said:


> Well of course Hinata's feelings for Naruto always were shown, her blushing, figiting, fainting, etc.  But what more is there to Hinata?  (Besides really nice boobs?  )



Naruto was just her inspiration. But there's more than just "nice boobs", there's a girl who grew up, and is still growing up to be a wonderful kunoichi. She doesn't need to be under the wing of a Sannin to grow up from a "dark, shy weirdo" to a "really likeable person", if we take Naruto's words to define what she's becoming. She's overcoming her fears and strenghtening her soul, yet her feelings are still there, and those feelings help her make a choice: sacrifice. 

She's slowly learning to be a person who can stand by herself and for other people. She's becoming strong and independent, little by little. That's what makes Hinata such a deep, likeable character. She doesn't like to stay where she is. She tries to go beyond that.



Tyrannos said:


> Now as for NaruSaku, why it's not transparent?   Perhaps one looked at the sun too long and now blind to what's going around them?



Perhaps it's not transparent because neither of them take it too seriously.



Tyrannos said:


> But all in all, as we said all along, Kishi's have been taking the slow buildup approach.  Sakura outright hating Naruto's guts, and transitioning to where we all are now, with Kishi now hinting that Sakura might very well could be falling in love with Naruto.
> 
> So who is the winner?  Only time will tell?



Indeed. Only time will tell. But I still believe Sakura falling in love with Naruto and vice versa after all the development dedicated to Hinata (might looks as very little in comparison but it's deep and of a high quality, just take a look at her battle against Neji) and her sacrifice would be cruel, and stupid. I hope it won't be in vain, and Naruto will consider at least trying to bond with Hinata a little more. He noticed her for a long time, even if under a completely different light when they were in the Academy. But even back then, he found a pattern in her behavior, and later on, some kind of similarity, something that can get them closer to each other. Naruto completely ignoring Hinata and her feelings would be against his own character. She was the first who told him she loved him, after all. And here applies the principle of the "slow development", too. Naruto still has yet to decide what he feels for Hinata, now that her actions had cornered him to eventually make a choice.

Where's that interview, or whatever it is?



OrangeFlash said:


> Try Google, "pairing fodder"
> In part 2:The manga shows Hinata  "Naruto-kun" and "We'll do our best" NO INTERACTIONS between them. When she worried, Naruto ignored her  He was focused on Tobi to even hear her. Yup...that's *N*ull *H*umdrum alright.



Sorry, but focusing on Tobi is not "ignoring her". Of course he'd focus on Tobi, he's the bad guy, Naruto has to concentrate on winning, duh. In there, Hinata's feelings were not relevant to the battle. Here they were, because she stood up to save his life.

Of course, he didn't focus on Sakura much when that tail whip of sorts happened back when he has KN4.


*in⋅ter⋅ac⋅tion*
   /ˌɪntərˈækʃən/  [in-ter-*ak*-shuhn] 
–noun
1. 	reciprocal action, effect, or influence.
2. 	Physics.
a. 	the direct effect that one kind of particle has on another, in particular, in inducing the emission or absorption of one particle by another.
b. 	the mathematical expression that specifies the nature and strength of this effect.


Just in case.... When Naruto talks to Hinata, she reacts, blushes, and faints. when Hinata says "let's do our best", Naruto agrees with a smile. There! Interaction.


----------



## DattebaYAOI-chan♥ (Mar 19, 2009)

ShiinsetsuChan said:


> NaruHina Fans, this is how the story will end!
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I leik,
But you've regrettably left out the secret SasuNaru ending~
_~*is kicked outta thread*~_


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 19, 2009)

Karmillina said:


> Where's that interview, or whatever it is?



Huh, what interview you refering to?  



Karmillina said:


> Indeed. Only time will tell. But I still believe Sakura falling in love with Naruto and vice versa after all the development dedicated to Hinata (might looks as very little in comparison but it's deep and of a high quality, just take a look at her battle against Neji) and her sacrifice would be cruel, and stupid. I hope it won't be in vain, and Naruto will consider at least trying to bond with Hinata a little more. He noticed her for a long time, even if under a completely different light when they were in the Academy. But even back then, he found a pattern in her behavior, and later on, some kind of similarity, something that can get them closer to each other. Naruto completely ignoring Hinata and her feelings would be against his own character. She was the first who told him she loved him, after all. And here applies the principle of the "slow development", too. Naruto still has yet to decide what he feels for Hinata, now that her actions had cornered him to eventually make a choice.



I'm sorry, but I can't see how all the development went into NaruHina.  To me, NH is like a student driver slamming on the gas, then slamming on the brakes, repeatedly.  

She had her moment in the Chuunin Exam, then disappeared until the end of Part 1.  Then disappeared for another couple of years until the reunion. 
*Spoiler*: _then_ 



Disappear for another couple of years, this time teamed up with Naruto and all she did was act as a plot device in revealing Kabutomaru.  Then disappeared again until she was in the middle of the fight with Pain and jumped in, only to get seriously wounded.

Not exactly stellar romance if you ask me. 




And I wouldn't say Naruto was ignoring her, that would imply he knew her feelings.  He was just plain oblivious to her affection.

Now as for recent events, as I said all along, I just can't see Naruto suddenly falling in love with Hinata in such a manner.   That's not slow, that's a fast relationship.  It's like two classmates, who never really knew each other going, "Wanna go out on a date?"  "Sure".

I know plenty of NHs who wanted some kind of buildup, not have Kishi throw them together without substance.   Talk about whip-lash.  



Karmillina said:


> Naruto was just her inspiration. But there's more than just "nice boobs", there's a girl who grew up, and is still growing up to be a wonderful kunoichi. She doesn't need to be under the wing of a Sannin to grow up from a "dark, shy weirdo" to a "really likeable person", if we take Naruto's words to define what she's becoming. She's overcoming her fears and strenghtening her soul, yet her feelings are still there, and those feelings help her make a choice: sacrifice.
> 
> She's slowly learning to be a person who can stand by herself and for other people. She's becoming strong and independent, little by little. That's what makes Hinata such a deep, likeable character. She doesn't like to stay where she is. She tries to go beyond that.



Well we shall see where that takes her.   But she basically just fulfilled her storyline, don't you think?  She got something off her chest that's been burning in her for a while, and all that remains is daddy dearest.



Karmillina said:


> Perhaps it's not transparent because neither of them take it too seriously.



As so you are lead to believe, but perhaps something is more than meets the eye?


----------



## Karmillina (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't expect Naruto to fall for Hinata instantly either. All that development doesn't take the subplot into NaruHina, at least not yet. But at least we get to know, her feelings were still there and kept growing to what they are now.

She loves him, simple as that. Even though she doesn't see him all the time unlike Sakura (who is his teammate so she obviosuly interacts more), she loves him enough to stand up for him (as useless as it might be) instead of running away or simply witnessing, which is much more than what you can say about any other female "rookie" character. I'm sure that the sacrifice will touch Naruto's heart (if it hasn't already), in one way or another, she will receive some kind of reward, perhaps not being loved back, but knowing Naruto, it can only be something good.

I shall run or I won't have lunch or make my homework XD have fun everyone!


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## Kek (Mar 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't see how all the development went into NaruHina.  To me, NH is like a student driver slamming on the gas, then slamming on the brakes, repeatedly.



I see NH as a car stopping at stoplights along a long road. Stopping to let other more plot important cars go through. 



> Now as for recent events, as I said all along, I just can't see Naruto suddenly falling in love with Hinata in such a manner.



Neither does a large part of the NH fandom. Looks like you guys have something in common. *shrug*



> I know plenty of NHs who wanted some kind of buildup, not have Kishi throw them together without substance.   Talk about whip-lash.



We got build up. Kishi hasn't addressed Naruto's reaction to Hina other than surprise and anger, nothing about whether he'll accept, reject, or simply give her a chance and see where things go (which is what most of the NH fandom wants). So we don't know if Kishi will "throw them together" or not. Just be patient.  (lol irony)



> Well we shall see where that takes her.   But she basically just fulfilled her storyline, don't you think?  She got something off her chest that's been burning in her for a while, and all that remains is daddy dearest.



If Hinata still has to confront her clan, doesn't that mean she hasn't fulfilled her story? She's more than her love for Naruto.


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

Karmillina said:


> So a love declaration made with a lot of effort and showing huge development, before sacrificing onself in such a climatic moment in he middle of a battle with one of the toughest guys to save the loved one's ass (with the extra of causing the loved one to trigger KN6 out of rage) is called fodder :3 and the comic relief is tr00 wub.
> 
> 
> *fod⋅der*
> ...



*overall*?adverb, adjective
1. 	from one extreme limit of a thing to the other: the overall length of the bridge.
2. 	covering or includingeverything: an overall impression; to view something overall.
?noun
3. 	overalls, (used with a plural verb)
a. 	loose, sturdy trousers, usually with a bib or biblike piece to which shoulder straps are attached, originally worn over other trousers to protect them, as by factory workers or farmers.
b. 	long waterproof leggings.
4. 	British. a smock or loose-fitting housedress.
Origin: 
*Overall* (definitions 1 & 2), to me, for the most part of the manga, Hinata( definitions 3 & 4 to describe her outfit)was comic relief when it came to her and Naruto. I said fodder to describe it. I never meant her sacrificial position nor speech. Her speech was disappointing because she didn't value her life--she could have found another way. It was plot device, for me at least.  
I do hope this clears any misunderstanding.
Please don't drag the author into a pairing thread. I would never insult the author.


----------



## Kek (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> Her speech was disappointing because she didn't value her life--



She's a ninja. Thats what Ninjas do, and are taught to do. Its not a matter of not valuing your own life, its caring about someone else's (Or an entire village in Yondy's case) more.



> she could have found another way



For example?



> It was plot device, for me at least.



It was also character devleopment. Though, its seems like everything is a plot device in Naruto. :/


----------



## Crimson Cloak (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> Overall, to me, for the most part of the manga, Hinata was comic relief when it came to her and Naruto. I said fodder to describe it. I never meant her sacrificial position nor speech. Her speech was disappointing because she didn't value her life--she could have found another way. It was plot device, for me at least.
> I do hope this clears any misunderstanding.
> Please don't drag the author into a pairing thread. I would never insult the author.



So, by saying that it's mostly comic relief to you, you're saying that most of Hinata's character is comic relief?  A huge part of what has shaped Hinata to what she is today is her admiration and love for Naruto.  It's not the only thing that defines her, but it's by no means a small part either.

You must have not seen a lot of the manga if you believe that for between those two.  Such as her "I don't want you to disappear" line in the Written Test.  A lot of the Hinata vs Neji fight like when Naruto says, " I never knew Hinata was this incredible."  And lets not forget the "Proud Failure" speech that lifted Naruto's spirits to where he could fight and defeat Neji.

One other thing.  A whole lot of crap in this manga is a "plot device".  In case you haven't noticed.


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

Kek said:


> She's a ninja. Thats what Ninjas do, and are taught to do. Its not a matter of not valuing your own life, its caring about someone else's (Or an entire village in Yondy's case) more.


 She said she was being selfish as she was. Yondy died saving the village as a whole not confessing what he could think of to do about a crush.




> For example?


read the previous post





> It was also character devleopment. Though, its seems like everything is a plot device in Naruto. :/


agreed


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> So, by saying that it's mostly comic relief to you, you're saying that most of Hinata's character is comic relief?  A huge part of what has shaped Hinata to what she is today is her admiration and love for Naruto.  It's not the only thing that defines her, but it's by no means a small part either.
> 
> You must have not seen a lot of the manga if you believe that for between those two.  Such as her "I don't want you to disappear" line in the Written Test.  A lot of the Hinata vs Neji fight like when Naruto says, " I never knew Hinata was this incredible."  And lets not forget the "Proud Failure" speech that lifted Naruto's spirits to where he could fight and defeat Neji.
> 
> One other thing.  A whole lot of crap in this manga is a "plot device".  In case you haven't noticed.


 Clearly, *you* are not reading the manga--you are too fanatical. Plot device has been your whole argument--"Oh if only she would confess." "NaruHina is now coming--she confessed!"


----------



## Damaris (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> She said she was being selfish as she was. Yondy died saving the village as a whole not confessing what he could think of to do about a crush.



People are still arguing that Hinata was SELFISH?

She was willing to die so that Naruto could have the chance of living on. She was willing to risk her life to fight against a ninja more powerful than she will ever be just because there was the faintest chance that Naruto might keep living. Valuing your own life less than the chance the person you love might live--that's the least selfish thing I can think of.


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> People are still arguing that Hinata was SELFISH?
> 
> She was willing to die so that Naruto could have the chance of living on. She was willing to risk her life to fight against a ninja more powerful than she will ever be just because there was the faintest chance that Naruto might keep living. Valuing your own life less than the chance the person you love might live--that's the least selfish thing I can think of.


 Yup, people are still saying selfish. Can you believe it?


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 19, 2009)

Kek said:


> I see NH as a car stopping at stoplights along a long road. Stopping to let other more plot important cars go through.



Got engine trouble?  I'm sure you can find a nice mechanic around here. 



Kek said:


> We got build up. Kishi hasn't addressed Naruto's reaction to Hina other than surprise and anger, nothing about whether he'll accept, reject, or simply give her a chance and see where things go (which is what most of the NH fandom wants). So we don't know if Kishi will "throw them together" or not. Just be patient.  (lol irony)



Oh, I am.  I always believed that definitive pairing moment would be at the end and not before the climax.  



Kek said:


> If Hinata still has to confront her clan, doesn't that mean she hasn't fulfilled her story? She's more than her love for Naruto.



Ah, indeed.  But Naruto already changed the Hyuuga back in the Chuunin Finals, and Hiashi isn't as strict as he once was.   So effectively, Hinata's story is complete.


----------



## Crimson Cloak (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> Clearly, *you* are not reading the manga--you are too fantical. Plot device has been your whole argument--"Oh if only she would confess." "NaruHina is now coming--she confessed!"



Mind telling me where I said that just because she confessed, that NaruHina is canon?   Don't jump the gun so much skippy.  Don't throw in every NaruHina shipper into the same mold.  Most of us know that it's not gonna happen just like that because she confessed.

"Plot device has been your whole argument."  Mind telling me what you mean by that?  Cause most of this manga is made up of plot devices.


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> So, by saying that it's mostly comic relief to you, you're saying that most of Hinata's character is comic relief?  A huge part of what has shaped Hinata to what she is today is her admiration and love for Naruto.  It's not the only thing that defines her, but it's by no means a small part either.


She was willing to sacrifice her existence on a one sided notion



> You must have not seen a lot of the manga if you believe that for between those two.  Such as her "I don't want you to disappear" line in the Written Test.  A lot of the Hinata vs Neji fight like when Naruto says, " I never knew Hinata was this incredible."  And lets not forget the "Proud Failure" speech that lifted Naruto's spirits to where he could fight and defeat Neji.


Part one--there is a part TWO
 ERGO my rebuttal to your previous comment.
Again, not stressing the confession. The confession was a disappointment to me. I really hope that simplified it for you. I mean really simplified it for you.


----------



## Kek (Mar 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Got engine trouble?  I'm sure you can find a nice mechanic around here.



Nah, she runs great. Thanks for the concern though. 



> Oh, I am.  I always believed that definitive pairing moment would be at the end and not before the climax.



As did I. Though, recent events make me believe otherwise. 



> Ah, indeed.  But Naruto already changed the Hyuuga back in the Chuunin Finals, and Hiashi isn't as strict as he once was.   So effectively, Hinata's story is complete



I'm sure you'd like that (hurr), but even though Hiashi has gotten rid of the stick in his ass, its hardly evidence that Naruto changed the clan's ways. Come on Kishi, you know you want to write a Hyuuga arc.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 19, 2009)

Kek said:


> I'm sure you'd like that (hurr), but even though Hiashi has gotten rid of the stick in his ass, its hardly evidence that Naruto changed the clan's ways. Come on Kishi, you know you want to write a Hyuuga arc.



Perhaps, but frankly I think it's up to Neji now.  After all, what can Naruto do?  (Well except marrying the princess, of course.  )


*Spoiler*: __ 



Doubt there be anything major with the Clouds, unless the Raikage is looking for a bride.  Or Neji pulls a hissy fit.


----------



## Crimson Cloak (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> She was willing to sacrifice her existence on a one sided notion



If she didn't do anything just because of that, then she never truly loved him then.  A big theme in this manga is "protecting your precious people, even if it costs you your life."  Naruto is one of Hinata's precious people.  She loved him.  He was about to be taken away by Pain to have the Kyubi extracted, which would've killed him, and she wasn't just gonna sit by and do nothing.  Even if it gave him just a tiny bit more of a chance to live, she was gonna sacrifice her life if she had to, to give him that chance.



> Part one--there is a part TWO
> ERGO my rebuttal to your previous comment.
> Again, not stressing the confession. The confession was a disappointment to me. I really hope that simplified it for you. I mean really simplified for you.


Yep, exactly.  This story has a Part 1 *AND* a Part 2.  Anything that happens in Part 2, doesn't automatically nullify what has happened back in Part 1.  Including any events, or developments.  I actually thought that the confession was very well done.  There was romance, without taking anything away from the plot or action.


----------



## kubik (Mar 19, 2009)

> People are still arguing that Hinata was SELFISH?



Im sorry but yes she was.



> Ah, indeed. But Naruto already changed the Hyuuga back in the Chuunin Finals, and Hiashi isn't as strict as he once was. So effectively, Hinata's story is complete.


Agree
She has a bodyguard = she is important to Hyuuga now as opposed to what we could see before.
Hyuuga was never her story to begin with, it was Nejis. 
Hyuuga was only mentioned in her db profile to set some standards for her to reach.
So yes Hinatas character is finished.

Let me just say that every one of her databook profiles is based in 80%-90% on guess who. It isnt really hard really it isnt. As much as it pains me [as Hinata fan] to admit it.


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> If she didn't do anything just because of that, then she never truly loved him then.  A big theme in this manga is "protecting your precious people, even if it costs you your life."  Naruto is one of Hinata's precious people.  She loved him.  He was about to be taken away by Pain to have the Kyubi extracted, which would've killed him, and she wasn't just gonna sit by and do nothing.  Even if it gave him just a tiny bit more of a chance to live, she was gonna sacrifice her life if she had to, to give him that chance.


tsk, tsk you didn't read the previous post.   You are not reading what I am saying.
To be very simple: Her confession and so called sacrifice was *disappointing*. She is the heiress, she was told to stay out of it! Shikamaru wanted to intervene as well, but was talked out of it. It was disappointing because she was willing to throw her life away on a one-sided notion--on impulse. It was disappointing as a *former *HINATA fan (not to ever be confused with NH)



> Yep, exactly.  This story has a Part 1 *AND* a Part 2.  Anything that happens in Part 2, doesn't automatically nullify what has happened back in Part 1.  Including any events, or developments.  I actually thought that the confession was very well done.  There was romance, without taking anything away from the plot or action.


 I never said it nullified anything nor do I believe it was romantic--far from it actually.


----------



## Kek (Mar 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Perhaps, but frankly I think it's up to Neji now.  After all, what can Naruto do?  (Well except marrying the princess, of course.  )
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



As Hokage? I think he has _some _power. And if he doesn't, I think he'll he find a way. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Or they find that Hiashi is still alive, and have been duped for the past 13 or so years. 




Still, I doubt Kishi would utilize (or even see) the potential of such an amazing Arc.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Vague, I disagree. Because it's not obvious like a confession, doesn't mean it's not there.
> 
> Remember, "Look underneath the underneath."


 
Yet, as the main male and main female, many consider it "the most obvious". Anything relative to romance regarding them is vague. It _could _mean something, but it just as well could _not_.


----------



## Crimson Cloak (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> tsk, tsk you didn't read the previous post.   You are not reading what I am saying.
> To be very simple: Her confession and so called sacrifice was *disappointing*. She is the heiress, she was told to stay out of it! Shikamaru wanted to intervene as well, but was talked out of it. It was disappointing because she was willing to throw her life away on a one-sided notion--on impulse. It was disappointing as a *former *HINATA fan (not to ever be confused with NH)



Tsk tsk, you're not reading what I'm saying.  I was trying to relate what Hinata did, to a general theme of the manga that's been there ever since the beginning.  It might not of seemed logical to you, but the manga runs on a very different logic than real life logic.  Did Hinata care that her love was one-sided?  Heck no!  All that was on her mind was that her precious person, the one that she loves, was in mortal danger.  The kind where he could lose his life.  And she wasn't about to just sit around and do nothing.

As for the Shikamaru comment.  He wanted to help, but his leg was broken.  So it wasn't just because, "he was told not to."  He couldn't even if he wanted.  Plus, back then was when Naruto was kicking Pain's arse.  He wasn't in the helpless situation like he was when Hinata intervened.



> I never said it nullified anything nor do I believe it was romantic--far from it actually.



And I never said those moments were romantic.  A couple of important things about those moments was that:

1. It gave us a look at Hinata's feelings for Naruto, and how much she truly looked up to, and admired him.  Before he did anything, but be the always getting up, never giving up knucklehead that he was since the beginning.

2. It changed Naruto's view of Hinata from a "shy, dark weirdo" to "incredible", and "a person like you, I really like!"

I get the feeling that this won't change anyone's view points and that i just typed all of that for no reason.


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> Tsk tsk, you're not reading what I'm saying.  I was trying to relate what Hinata did, to a general theme of the manga that's been there ever since the beginning.  It might not of seemed logical to you, but the manga runs on a very different logic than real life logic.  Did Hinata care that her love was one-sided?  Heck no!  All that was on her mind was that her precious person, the one that she loves, was in mortal danger.  The kind where he could lose his life.  And she wasn't about to just sit around and do nothing.


You failed to be comical--unlike NH. I never misunderstood you. You did this post on purpose for those who just joined us. Shame on you. I fully understoodd your point--you failed(like NH) to make the connection. I am, if anything, very logical--that's why I am NOT a NH fan. There is always a smarter/better way.



> As for the Shikamaru comment.  He wanted to help, but his leg was broken.  So it wasn't just because, "he was told not to."  He couldn't even if he wanted.  Plus, back then was when Naruto was kicking Pain's arse.  He wasn't in the helpless situation like he was when Hinata intervened.


You know something? People may think one is smarter when one doesn't say anything. I already knew about Shikamaru You missed the point, like everything else,  though I am not surprised. The point was that Shikamaru wanted to help, but was discouraged. 





> And I never said those moments were romantic.  A couple of important things about those moments was that:
> 
> 1. It gave us a look at Hinata's feelings for Naruto, and how much she truly looked up to, and admired him.  Before he did anything, but be the always getting up, never giving up knucklehead that he was since the beginning.
> 
> ...


What is the point ? You don't know how to comprehend what you are reading.  I, as in  me, said that it wasn't romantic. I never said you said it. Clear?! I don't care about Hinata's point of view regarding Naruto. Is that clear?! I am embarrassed that I liked her up until she was willing to throw her life away over a boy because he didn't pay attention to her. Clear?!  You are still quoting about part ONE when you said that there is a part TWO. 
This is old news, but in case you missed it: In Part Two there was NOTHING  between them up until her SELFISH confession/sacrifice, which left me disappointed. Clear?! 
It is OK to read it twice you know.


----------



## Kanai (Mar 19, 2009)

ironblade_x1 said:


> Cheater.
> 
> You aren't supposed to read all three, you're supposed to read the topic that applies.
> 
> Unless you're a fan of all three, in which you have my full approval. Foursome ftw



:3 What she/he said.


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> You know something? People may think one is smarter when one doesn't say anything. I already knew about Shikamaru You missed the point, like everything else,  though I am not surprised. The point was that Shikamaru wanted to help, but was discouraged.



The first thing Shikamaru is seen thinking after hearing that Naruto is back is that his leg was broken. He was not discouraged first; he realized his physical inability to help first.



> You are still quoting about part ONE when you said that there is a part TWO.
> This is old news, but in case you missed it: In Part Two there was NOTHING  between them up until her SELFISH confession/sacrifice, which left me disappointed. Clear?!



By the end of part 1, Hinata's relationship with Naruto was already established as much as it needed to be. We had already seen that he inspired her, as was demonstrated by her preliminary match against Neji. We had already seen that she cared about him specially, as was demonstrated by her giving him healing balm after his preliminary match against Kiba. We had already seen that she loved him and why she did. And, as starkiller 88 just said, we saw Naruto's opinion of her change so that she went from being a "shy, dark weirdo" to someone he thought of as "incredibly cool". What more was there to put? In part 2, they had nothing left that they needed to develop that didn't _require_ Naruto being aware of Hinata's feelings for it to happen, which is _why_ there were no major interactions between them in part 2 until this scene. Part of the magnitude of Hinata's confession is that Naruto receives it not from a close friend that he's worked hard to earn the respect of, but from someone who's always respected him for who he is, someone who he would not have expected to have had this great of an effect on.

That scene's main purpose was for Naruto to become aware of Hinata's feelings. That was the only development that these two lacked. If he thought of her as someone who was cool, don't you think that they would have become close friends, had they interacted more? (Especially given that Naruto tends to form bonds with everyone and everything.) Then, the confession would have lost some of its meaning. It means a lot _because_ it came from someone who he impacted without even trying, not in spite of that fact.


----------



## Kek (Mar 19, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> I am embarrassed that I liked her up until she was willing to throw her life away over a boy because he didn't pay attention to her. Clear?!  You are still quoting about part ONE when you said that there is a part TWO.
> This is old news, but in case you missed it: In Part Two there was NOTHING  between them up until her SELFISH confession/sacrifice, which left me disappointed. Clear?!



It sounds to me that you were expecting too much from Kishi, and are now sore because those expectations weren't met. :/


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 19, 2009)

Kek said:


> It sounds to me that you were expecting too much from Kishi, and are now sore because those expectations weren't met. :/



Come now Kek, no need to go there.   After all, I recall you even voicing your disappointment at how certain events have been recently handled in the manga.  



Kek said:


> As Hokage? I think he has _some _power. And if he doesn't, I think he'll he find a way.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



He's not there yet.  

Frankly, I don't think he will be crowned Hokage until the very end.   So if any of those changes occur, at best it will parallel the Chuunin Exam where Naruto initiates the change and the Hyuuga's handle it from there.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I thought about that too, but you know I don't think the Raikage would start a war with Konoha, when he's after Akatsuki for capturing his brother.

Come to think of it, perhaps if the Raikage hears about Hizashi's sacrifice for his brother, he might see the value in his own brother and make a mends to Neji.  






Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Yet, as the main male and main female, many consider it "the most obvious". Anything relative to romance regarding them is vague. It _could _mean something, but it just as well could _not_.



Well not the first time a Male Lead and a Female Lead ended up together, isn't it?


----------



## OrangeFlash (Mar 19, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> The first thing Shikamaru is seen thinking after hearing that Naruto is back is that his leg was broken. He was not discouraged first; he realized his physical inability to help first.


Yup, you are not failing to meet my expectations. He wanted to help when he heard it was Naruto fighting Pain alone. Clear?! *Seriously, my fingers are crossed that you understand this*





> By the end of part 1, Hinata's relationship with Naruto was already established as much as it needed to be.


Agreed, he knows that she exists.



> We had already seen that he inspired her, as was demonstrated by her preliminary match against Neji. We had already seen that she cared about him specially, as was demonstrated by her giving him healing balm after his preliminary match against Kiba. We had already seen that she loved him and why she did. And, as starkiller 88 just said, we saw Naruto's opinion of her change so that she went from being a "shy, dark weirdo" to someone he thought of as "incredibly cool". What more was there to put?


 I don't know why you are explaining this to me, but I will entertain you. Go on--please, I insisit.


> In part 2, they had nothing left that they needed to develop that didn't _require_ Naruto being aware of Hinata's feelings for it to happen, which is _why_ there were no major interactions between them in part 2 until this scene. Part of the magnitude of Hinata's confession is that Naruto receives it not from a close friend that he's worked hard to earn the respect of, but from someone who's always respected him for who he is, someone who he would not have expected to have had this great of an effect on.


 As here it is...the unexpected. I agree he he was shocked! It was unexpected. So what is the point? I never said that Naruto wasn't shocked. I said that I was disappointed. Seriously, why are you guys having hard time understanding a simple subject pronoun?



> If he thought of her as someone who was cool, don't you think that they would have become close friends, had they interacted more? (Especially given that Naruto tends to form bonds with everyone and everything.)


I don't know, considering he was always ignoring her. I got the feeling that he was in the zone of Sasuke, Sakura and everything and anything apart from getting to know Hinata.


> the confession would have lost some of its meaning.


It lost all of its meaning to me.


> It means a lot _because_ it came from someone who he impacted without even trying, not in spite of that fact.


  It meant a lot to you. It meant a disappointment for me. As for Naruto, it probably will mean guilt, because he is a nice guy. OK I hope that I was clear with my POV.
It was...um...well, good night.


----------



## Kek (Mar 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Come now Kek, no need to go there.   After all, I recall you even voicing your disappointment at how certain events have been recently handled in the manga.



Recently? Hardly. 




> He's not there yet.



Obviously. 



> Frankly, I don't think he will be crowned Hokage until the very end.   So if any of those changes occur, at best it will parallel the Chuunin Exam where Naruto initiates the change and the Hyuuga's handle it from there.



As long as there's Hyuugas. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 19, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I find it really funny how a confession made on the toll of death means epic love or canon. Dying for a friend or ideal in this manga makes sense - but this, in my view, doesn't. Hinata and Naruto weren't close, no matter how much the former aspired to the other. NH is saying Hinata died for love - but is that really love even if the manga shows how much it is heavily based on herself? Yes. At least when she fighting against Neji she had only _her_ life on the line, and was in mutual agreement with Naruto. She could have died for an ideal or on empathy- but dying for _love_? There is a sense of vacuity, that not only rival pairing fans perceived.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 19, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I find it really funny how a confession made on the toll of death means epic love or canon. Dying for a friend or ideal in this manga makes sense - but this, in my view, doesn't. Hinata and Naruto weren't close, no matter how much the former aspired to the other. NH is saying Hinata died for love - but is that really love even if the manga shows how much it is heavily based on herself? Yes. At least when she fighting against Neji she had only _her_ life on the line, and was in mutual agreement with Naruto. *She could have died for an ideal or on empathy- but dying for love*? There is a sense of vacuity, that not only rival pairing fans perceived.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Did you miss the part where she pretty much told us she was doing it because he inspired her to become a better person?  That she was able to die protecting him because he showed her the right way?  Yes, she loves him, but that isn't the only reason.

And last time I checked LOVE was a pretty noble ideal.


----------



## Pia-chan (Mar 20, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> You failed to be comical--unlike NH. I never misunderstood you. You did this post on purpose for those who just joined us. *Shame on you*. I fully understoodd your point--*you failed(like NH)* to make the connection. I am, if anything, very logical--that's why I am NOT a NH fan. *There is always a smarter/better way.*
> 
> You know something? People may think one is smarter when one doesn't say anything. I already knew about Shikamaru You missed the point, like everything else,  though I am not surprised. The point was that Shikamaru wanted to help, but was discouraged.
> 
> ...



you talk as if you've lost your mind, and if you're just saying your view point it's good as your fandom beliefs.
Don't act as if you're really desesperated, bashing fandoms doesnt sound as smart as you wanna seem.

But I am a Hinata fan, and as a Hinata fan, before being NaruHina fan, I like how she has been moving. I liked her act of love. I think anyone that loves someone would do what she did. It's not about what her clan wait from her, it's about HER OWN NINDO. Hinata has her own nindo, because of nobody in her clan helped to grow, nobody in her clan understood her. Only Naruto gave her the courage, he's the reason of her growth. This story is about to change the ninja's world, a ninja's world has not only ninjas but humans. Humans have feelings, and those are because they fight: because they must protect people they love. Humans make mistakes, also. It wouldn't be helpful to her character just remain there seing how Naruto was kidnaped without doing anything. It was the most important person in her life that was going to dissapear. She HAD to do something about that. I feel really proud of what she did. As a Hinata fan, I never thought she was just wasting her life in order to protect her most important person. It was not as stupid as you say, just because you don't like NaruHina. You just never understood Hinata's character, and that's all.
I'm not dissapointed, and I think the most of Hinata fans aren't, too.


----------



## Zeky (Mar 20, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I find it really funny how a confession made on the toll of death means epic love or canon. Dying for a friend or ideal in this manga makes sense - but this, in my view, doesn't. Hinata and Naruto weren't close, no matter how much the former aspired to the other. NH is saying Hinata died for love - but is that really love even if the manga shows how much it is heavily based on herself? Yes. At least when she fighting against Neji she had only _her_ life on the line, and was in mutual agreement with Naruto. She could have died for an ideal or on empathy- but dying for _love_? There is a sense of vacuity, that not only rival pairing fans perceived.



LongPostAlert!

*Spoiler*: _My Opinion_ 





I find really funny the fact that dying for love means nothing to you . Dying for someone you love it's the maximum sacrifice. Love itself was the reason for her action. She loved him, she saw him in pain, she had no time, so she did what she did. Even though i found it pretty silly at the time (you know... she fighting against pain) it's clear to me now that she had no other option. If she wouldn't jump in the battle, Naruto would've never turn into 6/8 tails and consequently he would've never had the talk with his father. He would've just been taken by pein to a direct death. 



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> NH is saying Hinata died for love - but is that really love even if the manga shows how much it is heavily based on herself? Yes.



Not only NH, everyone else who is not anti-nh can see it clearly. Besides ... isn't NS love heavily based only in Naruto's feelings? Yes.

Where we see love, they see selfishness and stupidity. Where they see love we see friendship. My point is clear... having NH and NS debating each other has no real purpose other than to point out the shittiness every fan thinks it each of the pairings has .



> Hinata and Naruto weren't close, no matter how much the former aspired to the other.



Well.. that's not true. Even since 1st part finished it was clear that Naruto's view of Hinata was changed and so his relationship with her.

It is true that the interaction between Naruto and Hinata in the 2nd part was nearly to unexisting but that was obviously Kishi's doing. The only thing that NH was missing was the confession from Hinata. It was the push Naruto needed to realize what all of us already knew: it seemed that Naruto was realizing, as Hinata confesses, that he never noticed Hinata's feelings before. That can further change his mind in the future about his feelings for her, he's human.

To avoid a possible comment: Saying NH it's not possible just because Naruto it's a Shonen can be applied to every pairing in the series.. so get over it.


----------



## santanico (Mar 20, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


attack the debate, not the debater.


You claim he ignored her, and you say it as if he didn't like her. 
He considered her his friend/comrade.
btw, sasuke and sakura were not his only "family", you forgot about jiriaya,kakashi, tsunade, konohamaru, etc.


----------



## hmph (Mar 20, 2009)

I would like to mention, there is more in the way of NH than Naruto's (lack of) feelings for Hinata. His feelings for Sakura. A relationship is not going to be practical if he's still chasing after someone else's skirt, and I should hope you wouldn't expect him to pick Hinata over Sakura because shes easier to get. I really don't see how never-give-up Naruto is going to just drop his feelings for Sakura somewhere on the road, unless Kishi just throws them together at the last moment with still no development.


----------



## Pia-chan (Mar 20, 2009)

hmph said:


> I would like to mention, there is more in the way of NH than Naruto's (lack of) feelings for Hinata. His feelings for Sakura. A relationship is not going to be practical if he's still chasing after someone else's skirt, and I should hope you wouldn't expect him to pick Hinata over Sakura because shes easier to get. I really don't see how never-give-up Naruto is going to just drop his feelings for Sakura somewhere on the road, unless Kishi just throws them together at the last moment with still no development.


His feelings for Sakura? the crush that has lacked development since part 1? Those strong feelings that talk about he joking all the time for dates and she punching him? Those romantic scenes of him being impressed (in front of his "beloved girl") by a coarse yuri-jutsu done by Konohamaru? That goal of gaining her love that he never mentioned? Or maybe all those thoughts that he only devotes to her when his alone (pls, he only thinks on Sasuke).

OMG, those strong feelings of romantic love are really difficult to ruin, ya' know... 

Pls don't get offended, but... if there's something that has not grown in post skip have been Naruto's romantic feelings towards Sakura, if they were really serious ever.


----------



## Zeky (Mar 20, 2009)

hmph said:


> I would like to mention, there is more in the way of NH than Naruto's (lack of) feelings for Hinata. His feelings for Sakura. A relationship is not going to be practical if he's still chasing after someone else's skirt, and I should hope you wouldn't expect him to pick Hinata over Sakura because shes easier to get. I really don't see how never-give-up Naruto is going to just drop his feelings for Sakura somewhere on the road, unless Kishi just throws them together at the last moment with still no development.





This could be troublesome as fans interpret the relationships their own way.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I think Naruto it's not in love with Sakura.. he only likes her (physically). And Sakura is only confused about her feelings. Sasuke is no longer there for her so she relies more in Naruto. That can be misunderstood as love.

That's the main problem I have with NS: the confusion between the words "I Like her" and "I love her". Though both phrases are similar, they mean completely different things.



> I should hope you wouldn't expect him to pick Hinata over Sakura because shes easier to get. I really don't see how never-give-up Naruto is going to just drop his feelings for Sakura



I really don't expect him to do that. I, as a NH follower, expect Naruto to really understand this feelings and start thinking that loving the person who gave his life for him it's possible.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 20, 2009)

hmph said:


> I would like to mention, there is more in the way of NH than Naruto's (lack of) feelings for Hinata. His feelings for Sakura. A relationship is not going to be practical if he's still chasing after someone else's skirt, and I should hope you wouldn't expect him to pick Hinata over Sakura because shes easier to get. I really don't see how never-give-up Naruto is going to just drop his feelings for Sakura somewhere on the road, unless Kishi just throws them together at the last moment with still no development.



Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura haven't been treated seriously since the PoaL in which he effectively gave them up when acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.  He gets less and less interested in her that way until even DB3 lacks an arrow from him to her.  So he seems to have dropped his romantic feelings for Sakura down the road a while back.

Naruto's nindo is to never go back on his words- and he has never voiced, internally or externally, that his goal was to win Sakura's love.  He announces he wants to protect her, or that he'll bring Sasuke back.  And this is not the same thing.

The manga isn't over yet, so there is still time for NaruHina awesomeness


----------



## Kage (Mar 20, 2009)

Pia-chan said:


> His feelings for Sakura? the crush that has lacked development since part 1? Those strong feelings that talk about he joking all the time for dates and she punching him? Those romantic scenes of him being impressed (in front of his "beloved girl") by a coarse yuri-jutsu done by Konohamaru? That goal of gaining her love that he never mentioned? Or maybe all those thoughts that he only devotes to her when his alone (pls, he only thinks on Sasuke).
> 
> OMG, those strong feelings of romantic love are really difficult to ruin, ya' know...
> 
> Pls don't get offended, but... if there's something that has not grown in post skip have been Naruto's romantic feelings towards Sakura, if they were really serious ever.


has more going for it then his _not crush_ on hinata 

if you expect him to spend his every waking moment thinking about sakura and wanting to be with her then your reading the wrong type of manga.

not to mention his lack of romantic development for _anyone_ other then sasuke her.

as far as we know naruto still has a crush on sakura but that's debatable only because people don't like to take anything he does with sakura seriously  whether it's love (i don't think so) or whether something will ever come out of it is still uncertain.

i believe he can very well live without sakura as a love interest and not be all that troubled about it but i also believe she doesn't have to be his entire world that spot is taken in order for him to remain, at least, interested.

he has a crush on her, flirts when he can, but oh wait look there's an organization that wants to kill him and he can't seem to stop obsessing over bringing back his wayward bestfriend. his priorities obviously lie elsewhere.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 20, 2009)

kageneko said:


> has more going for it then his _not crush_ on hinata



Or his _not crush_ on Sasuke any one else?  



> if you expect him to spend his every waking moment thinking about sakura and wanting to be with her then your reading the wrong type of manga.
> 
> not to mention his lack of romantic development for _anyone_ other then sasuke her.
> 
> ...



Of course his priorities lie elsewhere now, but even in downtime there is no thoughts of Sakura on how to win her love- nothing but halfhearted date requests that no one takes seriously.


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## Tenrol (Mar 20, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Of course his priorities lie elsewhere now, but even in downtime there is no thoughts of Sakura on how to win her love- nothing but halfhearted date requests that no one takes seriously.



This isn't a shoujo buddy


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 20, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> This isn't a shoujo buddy



Do you follow me or something?

Shoujo would have his romantic thoughts _the _priority.  Shounen is allowed to have romance, you know.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 20, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Do you follow me or something?
> 
> Shoujo would have his romantic thoughts _the _priority.  Shounen is allowed to have romance, you know.



I do.

Yea it can. But in a shounen since  when a main character is thinking how about to win the girl heart? Just tell me one shounen please.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 20, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> I do.
> 
> Yea it can. But in a shounen since  when a main character is thinking how about to win the girl heart? Just tell me one shounen please.



Heh, the funny thing is that in shounen- the main character usually has his love interest _told to him_.

Chichi told Goku she was going to marry him.
Keiko pretty much demanded Yusuke.
Dita attached herself to Hibiki.
Etc...
Now who has done something similar in _Naruto_?

I haven't read every shounen series, but how about Claymore?  Raki and Clare?


----------



## Kage (Mar 20, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Or his _not crush_ on Sasuke any one else?
> 
> Of course his priorities lie elsewhere now, but even in downtime there is no thoughts of Sakura on how to win her love- nothing but halfhearted date requests that no one takes seriously



what's you point?  i already admitted to the fact that he doesn't have romantic development with anyone else. lol if only his not crush on sasuke was anything like his not crush on hinata you might have something there

he has/had? a crush on sakura. has expressed a romantic interest in her even if it doesn't come up constantly and people like you will never take it seriously. he has none of this with hinata was the point i was making. simply knocking it because it doesn't meet the ridiculous double standards i've seen around here is pointless and spiteful.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 20, 2009)

kageneko said:


> what's you point?  i already admitted to the fact that he doesn't have romantic development with anyone else. lol if only his not crush on sasuke was anything like his not crush on hinata you might have something there
> 
> he has/had? a crush on sakura. has expressed a romantic interest in her even if it doesn't come up constantly and people like you will never take it seriously. he has none of this with hinata was the point i was making. simply knocking it because it doesn't meet the ridiculous double standards i've seen around here is pointless and spiteful.




I don't take it seriously because it is _never presented seriously_ after the PoaL.  Naruto doesn't take it seriously, neither does Sakura or Kakashi or any other character in the manga, so why should I?
I've made this point before... It's like expecting me to take Jiraiya's peeping as a pathological voyeurism.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 20, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Heh, the funny thing is that in shounen- the main character usually has his love interest _told to him_.
> 
> Chichi told Goku she was going to marry him.
> Keiko pretty much demanded Yusuke.
> ...


As for Dragonball Z, that is totally different and it's a faulty explanation of what happened. Goku touched Chichi in a very private place, yet it was meant innocent. Chichi then believed that it was right for them to marry and told this to Goku; whom did not know what marriage truly was. He made a promise without knowing what it meant.

Differences: physical contact, Goku never showed interest in any other female on a romantic level, and he did not know what Chichi meant by 'marriage'.

Now where have we seen these in Naruto? I've learned not to compare other shounen mangas to this one, as every one is unique in a way. Especially when it comes to pairings.

Also, please don't try to cut up a single scene into bits that are useful to you and try to keep the information complete and accurate.

/off to bed rofl
Cya


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## Kage (Mar 20, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> I don't take it seriously because it is _never presented seriously_ after the PoaL.  Naruto doesn't take it seriously, neither does Sakura or Kakashi or any other character in the manga, so why should I?
> I've made this point before... It's like expecting me to take Jiraiya's peeping as a pathological voyeurism.



never presented seriously in comparison to...say...a confession of love?
yup guys in naruto are all over that one 

and i already said he has bigger priorities and marrying sakura to make his life complete and live happily after is not one of them nor do i believe it ever will be and it shouldn't be the priority of the other characters to press and question the issue of his sincere feelings of everlasting love for her either. but it seems like this is _exactly what has to happen_ in order for you to even consider the thought 
'hey, maybe he does still like her and wouldn't mind dating her if the opportunity ever presented itself' 

excuse me for thinking it's _a little_ unreasonable.

and this coming from a person who thinks he's not all that interested


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## OrangeFlash (Mar 20, 2009)

Pia-chan said:


> you talk as if you've lost your mind


Nope my mind is intact. Struck a nerve did I? :ho



> But I am a Hinata fan, before being NaruHina fan, I like how she has been moving


 Well, as a former fan, I didn't like how she moved right into a Shin Tensi and is barely alive.


> it's about HER OWN NINDO. Hinata has her own nindo, because of nobody in her clan helped to grow, nobody in her clan understood her. Only Naruto gave her the courage, he's the reason of her growth.


 Koh, did tell her she would only be a burden if she helped. Naruto did tell her that she was no match for Pain, but her NINDO was more important? Oh yeah, she did tell Naruto that she understood that she was no match and how she was being selfish and didn't mind dying to protect him. I guess her NINDO was really important. 





> She HAD to do something about that. I feel really proud of what she did.


True she did go down quickly. You must really proud that she is barely alive now. 


> I'm not dissapointed


 I am


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## Zeky (Mar 20, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> Nope my mind is intact. Struck a nerve did I? :ho
> 
> Well, as a former fan, I didn't like how she moved right into a Shin Tensi and is barely alive.
> Koh, did tell her she would only be a burden if she helped. Naruto did tell her that she was no match for Pain, but her NINDO was more important? Oh yeah, she did tell Naruto that she understood that she was no match and how she was being selfish and didn't mind dying to protect him. I guess her NINDO was really important.
> ...



It was not her NINDO what was motivating Hinata to jump into the fight, i think that she truly wanted to demonstrate Naruto how much she cared about him, and to fully open herself to him. She knew that Pein was going to own her but she continued. You may think that's stupid but others admire that action.

So plz men... it's simple... she was willing to die for the one she loved.. there's nothing more to understand .

Though i've read your comments before, where you expressed your dissapointment for her actions, i can't fully understand the nature of this feeling of yours.

Are You dissapointed because of she jumping into the scene?
Are You dissapointed because she continued to fight pein?
Are You dissapointed because she confessed her love?
Are You dissapointed because she saved Naruto?
or Are You dissapointed because she's nearly dead?

It's clear to me that Hinata will survive this arc, so i don't understand why do you keep saying the same thing over and over.

I suggest you open your mind a just a little more to think more clearly about this matter, don't get stucked in your dissapointment.


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## OrangeFlash (Mar 20, 2009)

Zeky said:


> It was not her NINDO what was motivating Hinata to jump into the fight.She knew that Pein was going to own her but she continued. You may think that's stupid but others admire that ac tion.


 Yes, I thought that it was stupid.



> So plz men... it's simple... she was willing to die for the one she loved.. there's nothing more to understand


 It's simple, she was willing to die and I never misunderstood  the stupidity of this.



> Though i've read your comments before, where you expressed your dissapointment for her actions, i can't fully understand the nature of this feeling of yours.


 I don't want you to understand the nature of my feelings; it too simple that you keep misundertanding that I was disappointed.



> Are You dissapointed because of she jumping into the scene?
> Are You dissapointed because she continued to fight pein? She didn't continue in fighting Pein. She was quickly defeated
> Are You dissapointed because she confessed her love?
> Are You dissapointed because she saved Naruto?
> or Are You dissapointed because she's nearly dead?


 to avoid repeating my sentiment. Read the previous comments



> It's clear to me that Hinata will survive this arc, so i don't understand why do you keep saying the same thing over and over.


 It's simply too complicated for you.


> I suggest you open your mind a just a little more to think more clearly about this matter, don't get stucked in your dissapointment.


 Haha! this made me chuckle. You seem to very interested about my disappointment to the point that it is to the extreme  that I am getting your attention, to the point that you are repeating yourself over and over (your words) and explaining everything and now you are giving me advice. Why? Because you simply can't understand that I don't agree


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## Zeky (Mar 20, 2009)

OrangeFlash said:


> Yes, I thought that it was stupid.
> 
> It's simple, she was willing to die and I never misunderstood  the stupidity of this.
> 
> ...



Woo, youre far more complex than i predicted.

I just wanted to know if there was a real arguement beneath the "i think it was stupid" thing. I think it's lame.

Just remember.. noble acts are usually marked as stupid, but they're not.

btw your mental health means nothing to me.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 20, 2009)

> I would like to mention, there is more in the way of NH than Naruto's (lack of) feelings for Hinata. His feelings for Sakura. A relationship is not going to be practical if he's still chasing after someone else's skirt, and I should hope you wouldn't expect him to pick Hinata over Sakura because shes easier to get. I really don't see how never-give-up Naruto is going to just drop his feelings for Sakura somewhere on the road, unless Kishi just throws them together at the last moment with still no development.


I would hope that after this, Naruto would think seriously on the fact that someone has loved him for a very long time. Naruto accepting Hinata's confession does not indicate the choice for him [to be canon], but I do believe Hinata deserves a chance, and frankly, it would be unlike Naruto to give her it. I am not implying Naruto would be an ass if he did not, but what grounds does he have for saying "I don't love you" when he hasn't even had the chance to discuss it or think on it? He did not even realize, and I can't see him outright rejecting her without considering that she's told him all these things:  That she loved him, that she always has, that he has impacted her in so many ways. That this was occuring under his nose for so long and he had little inkling . . . he needs a reflection, whether shown or implied, before it would make much sense to ignore this.



> Nope my mind is intact. Struck a nerve did I?


 
Insulting the debater and not the argument . . . you must be so proud. If you provoke, do not act as if the other is acting unreasonable.

---
Here is what bothers me. Why, when Sakura rushed forward to Naruto and was smacked back, hurt, it struck chords of emotion throughout the supporters [and even non-supporters; it was a good scene], then this wave of "this proves she loves him; she was risking her life!" rises?

But when Sakura put nothing but her body and a kunai in front of Sasuke, facing, again, an opponent she realized she didn't have much of a chance against, that was attributed to nothing but "friendship", or even, "she was just acting on that wholly selfish crush". 

Sacrificing your life is on par with acting selfish? Sakura doing _anything _for Sasuke has been reduced to nothing but selfish motivation, and now it is happening to Hinata.

I am really not understanding this.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 20, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Don't talk to me as if I didn't read it. Your tone is uncalled for.
Yeah, and that's why I said it was based heavily on herself. She can die for an ideal, but not for love. Why? Cos she doesn't know him _really_, got it?





Zeky said:


> LongPostAlert!
> 
> *Spoiler*: _My Opinion_
> 
> ...



You have no idea what LOVE I'm talking about. You can't truly love someone if you don't know them. This is how I'll explain.
Sakura hated Naruto in the beginning. She got to know him and she likes him knowing and tolerating him.
Hinata liked Naruto in the beginning. She didn't get to know him and she continues to like him for what he represents.
That is blind love. Close friendship or true love closes its eyes.
And didn't Pein have to capture the other x-tails before killing Naruto ? You can't draw assumptions on something you don't know would have happened.



> Not only NH, everyone else who is not anti-nh can see it clearly. Besides ... isn't NS love heavily based only in Naruto's feelings? Yes.



Sorry, NS isn't based only on Naruto's feelings  that is absolute blasphemy. NS is heavily based on Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, which Naruto selflessly respects.



> Where we see love, they see selfishness and stupidity. Where they see love we see friendship. My point is clear... having NH and NS debating each other has no real purpose other than to point out the shittiness every fan thinks it each of the pairings has .



Luckily I don't like either 



> Well.. that's not true. Even since 1st part finished it was clear that Naruto's view of Hinata was changed and so his relationship with her.



And it was left at friendly acknowledgment 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It is true that the interaction between Naruto and Hinata in the 2nd part was nearly to unexisting but that was obviously Kishi's doing. The only thing that NH was missing was the confession from Hinata. It was the push Naruto needed to realize what all of us already knew: it seemed that Naruto was realizing, as Hinata confesses, that he never noticed Hinata's feelings before. That can further change his mind in the future about his feelings for her, he's human.



*Spoiler*: __ 




Yeah...doesn't take back the fact he never was interested in her till then. Some people like natural progression...of course they can develop a deeper relationship, but funny how it took Hinata a death-situation to pucker up. To someone who was LONELY.





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> To avoid a possible comment: Saying NH it's not possible just because Naruto it's a Shonen can be applied to every pairing in the series.. so get over it.





If you have something to say about that don't aim it in response to me who simply expressed my contrariety. I'm sick of all this jumping down everyone's throat. This is a debate thread, not "I hear you don't agree with x - please die."


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 20, 2009)

Izzy is right, NS is based not on Naruto's feelings for Sakura like observers tend to believe, but instead is based upon _mutual development._ Not simply a foil so that Naruto "gets the girl" its based on the fact that throughout the series both Sakura & Naruto have grown together as team members (and in my opinion more), based on their shared experiences, continuously changing views and commitments and dedications toward each other, Sasuke included.

To try and place NS in a corner insinuating that NaruSaku exists only because Naruto had feelings for Sakura at one time is foolish for all parties involved because that is obviously not the case in this situation.


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## Emily (Mar 20, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> ---
> Here is what bothers me. Why, when Sakura rushed forward to Naruto and was smacked back, hurt, it struck chords of emotion throughout the supporters [and even non-supporters; it was a good scene], then this wave of "this proves she loves him; she was risking her life!" rises?
> 
> But when Sakura put nothing but her body and a kunai in front of Sasuke, facing, again, an opponent she realized she didn't have much of a chance against, that was attributed to nothing but "friendship", or even, "she was just acting on that wholly selfish crush".
> ...




*Spoiler*: _manga_ 



I agree. In my opinion, sacrificing your life for someone important is the same in all of the cases, being it Sakura-->Sasuke, Sakura-->Naruto, Sasuke-->Naruto or Hinata-->Naruto. It implies that for that person the other is worth dying for. It's not that selfish, don't you think? I don't know if I should think that what Hinata did was selfish. In my opinion it wasn't (although her sacrifice didn't do that much on a larger scale), but she apparently thought it was, so I can't go around pointing at people and say that they're wrong.




--

I believe it's nonsense to claim that Sakura's purpose to protect Sasuke in part one was simply for platonic and friendship reasons. One would have to be kind of blind not to see that she had the hots for the Uchiha and not Naruto. However, she was annoying and selfish too when it came to him. People can't deny that either, especially since Kishimoto has said so himself a few times.

To my mind Sakura was selfish when she craved for Sasuke's attention, sometimes acting as if Naruto was nothing important and focusing only on helping Sasuke in the battle, praising him for whatever reason. It was selfish of her to be talking mostly about _herself_ in chapter 181. Some people seem very keen on defending her love for Sasuke by saying that she was only 12 and couldn't possibly think of better ways; it's okay to be a bit selfish as a kid. But if that is the case I can't help but wonder that how in the world could she have known something about true love if that was the case.

As for other arguments that I've seen floating around on these forums, I have seen something like this quite often:

# Person 1: "Sakura's love for Sasuke couldn't possibly be that of true and genuine love. She was twelve for gods' sake!"

# Person 2: "She said she loved him. I mean, she's a ninja, right? If she's ready to kill, she must be ready to love too."

The second person's argument might sound good, but to me that's just stupid. First, when have we seen Sakura ready to kill? In part one, she mostly just stood there useless, always needing Naruto and Sasuke to save her. Second, love and being a ninja are two different things for simple reasons:
1. Basic ninja skills are learned at the academy and via experienced teachers.
2. Love can't be teached, it's personal and has to be learned by ourselves.​
I've mentioned this before, but in my opinion Sakura needs to find the answer by herself. Now she's learned more about being a ninja, but we still don't know about her current feelings for Sasuke. If asked from me I'd say that there's been some subtle, more mature hints for her having some feelings for Naruto, but the possibility for her to be in love with Sasuke is still there. I know I wouldn't mind either that much, me not being particularly interested in her love life, but on the other hand I think someone like Naruto or Lee would do her good.


/wall of text


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 20, 2009)

Caran said:


> *Spoiler*: _manga_
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. In my opinion, sacrificing your life for someone important is the same in all of the cases, being it Sakura-->Sasuke, Sakura-->Naruto, Sasuke-->Naruto or Hinata-->Naruto. It implies that for that person the other is worth dying for. It's not that selfish, don't you think? I don't know if I should think that what Hinata did was selfish. In my opinion it wasn't (although her sacrifice didn't do that much on a larger scale), but she apparently thought it was, so I can't go around pointing at people and say that they're wrong.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I also agree, Hinata did what she thought she could in the context of the situation because all she thought about was protecting him. It would be nonsense to say that Hinata didn't love Naruto (even though i'm not sure how its possible as she didn't know him that well, maybe an idealistic love perhaps?) because that's really probably what Kishimoto was trying to imply. 

What i'm more concerned about however, is how if Naruto loves Sakura, how people can assume that after Hinata's recent confession, Naruto would simply abandon his feelings for the girl that he's shown for the better part of the series for one that he's hardly talked to, and we knew for sure that Kishimoto has had many chances to develop them outside of the storyline, but he's never taken the chance to, i wonder why that is?


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 20, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




That's one of the problems with NaruSaku.  Naruto's feelings have never been shown as being anything other than a simple crush.  I'd be able to take NaruSaku in a more serious light, if only at least Naruto took it a bit more seriously.  I mean, I know that this is  Shonen and all that, but would it really kill Kishi to show maybe one panel in Part 2 that shows Naruto at least having a little bit of a stray thought about Sakura?  Naruto hasn't made a single reference about his feelings for Sakura in all of Part 2 outside of, "Sakura, date?", which almost always ended in a comedic fashion.  And the fact there's no mention of them in the databooks, either in his bio, or even in the relationship chart, where at least there was an arrow pointing from Naruto to Sakura.

In any case, this is all my opinion, and formed from my own observation and speculation.


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## Emily (Mar 20, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, but then again, the problem with SasuSaku and NaruHina is that they're not very mutual. Sasuke always paid more attention to Itachi and Naruto; Naruto didn't notice Hinata. Even as being a NH fan, I think the pairing lacks so much chemistry and _communication_ that I know I'd be disappointed if we just saw them married after a timeskip or something. I know it's shounen and STILL can't help but feel the frustration when Kishimoto apparently does have time to make very beautiful relationships (Sasuke & Naruto and Sakura & Naruto for example), but, sadly, they aren't taken as seriously among the fandoms. And that's probably because there's no (a bit selfish) love confessions or typical heterosexual relationship.

As for Naruto's attraction to Sakura, there's the PoaL and the ramen scene, whereas there's nothing Sakura-->Sasuke. I don't understand your point.


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 20, 2009)

Caran said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Isn't love in itself a bit selfish?  To love someone so much that you just want to be with them, and have them to yourself?  Who's to say that they won't be mutual later on down the road?  Naruto just recently heard Hinata's confession, and we're bound to get a response from him (good or bad) sometime after the Pain situation is taken care of.  Sasuke currently has too much of a revenge-complex to love anyone.  In Part 1, for both of the boys, their views on the respective girls changed over time.  For Sasuke, Sakura became a trusted comrade and a friend.  For Naruto from his point of view, Hinata went from being a "shy, dark weirdo", to "people like you, I really like."  Basically into a trusted friend.

I don't know about you, but I thought that Naruto and Hinata had some good communication in Ch 98 at the training field.  Naruto was able to share some of his doubts about himself, and Hinata was able to lift his spirits up and give him the confidence he needed to defeat Neji.  And this was even with the lack of _interaction_ between them.

As for Naruto's attraction to Sakura, I find the PoaL to be more of him acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.  After all, he already wanted to get Sasuke back.  He didn't need Sakura to beg him to get him back.  Not to mention, I haven't seen Naruto make one comment, or mention of that promise in all of Part 2.  In the feeding scene, Naruto was about to get fed by his pretty female teammate.  I mean, wouldn't you have enjoyed that?   Plus, I think he was kinda caught off-guard by it as well.

The thing that I love about Naruto and Sakura's relationship is that they have a great friendship going on right now, and I really love it.  It would kinda kill it for me if it all of a sudden turned into some romance.  Not to mention the fact that NaruSaku requires that Sakura brushes off the guy that she pursued, and even confessed her love to in Part 1 (she even continues to pursue him now), and for Naruto to brush off the girl that was willing to sacrifice even her own life for him, and confessed her love to him.  It would just leave a bad taste in my mouth.


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## Kurama (Mar 20, 2009)

Caran said:


> Yes, but then again, the problem with SasuSaku and NaruHina is that they're not very mutual.



None of the big 3 are. Romantically at least. Yet.



> Sasuke always paid more attention to Itachi and Naruto;



Yet still considers Sakura a precious person he was once willing to sacrifice his life to protect in the Gaara fight. Remember the Forest of Death.



> Naruto didn't notice Hinata.



On the contrary, he noticed her [shy dark weird girl that always looks away when i look at her], he just didn't understand why she acted the way she did, and what with being on separate teams, they don't get the luxury of seeing each other every other chapter.




> Even as being a NH fan, I think the pairing lacks so much chemistry and _communication_ that I know I'd be disappointed if we just saw them married after a timeskip or something.


Actually, they do indeed have gfreat chemistry and communication, as noted in the Chuunin Exam. What NH lacks is screen time [not that it really needs soooo much]. But it isn't over yet. We've only reached the beginning of the end. I have faith in Kishi's ability.



> I know it's shounen and STILL can't help but feel the frustration when Kishimoto apparently does have time to make very beautiful relationships (Sasuke & Naruto and Sakura & Naruto for example), but, sadly, they aren't taken as seriously among the fandoms.



How is taking them as they are presented [brotherhood and friendship] not taking them seriously?



> And that's probably because there's no (a bit selfish) love confessions or typical heterosexual relationship.



SasuNaru and "typical heterosexual relationships" aside [since anyone seriously thinking there's going to be a yaoi ending really needs to look for some yaoi manga. Naruto explicitly expressed he sees Sasuke as a brother, and shows disgust towards homosexuality, and attraction towards women despite his strong bond with his rival], NaruSaku's weakness is not only internal [Naruto's lack of effort and Sakura's lack of consideration], but external [Sakura's pre-established love for Sasuke, Naruto's acceptance of those feelings, Hinata's established love for Naruto].



> As for Naruto's attraction to Sakura, there's the PoaL and the ramen scene, whereas there's nothing Sakura-->Sasuke. I don't understand your point.



Promise of a Lifetime [should this really apply? its pre-skip, and its Naruto acknowledging her feelings for Sasuke]? 319.

Ramen Scene? Konohamaru's Yaoi Henge. They're equally silly.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 20, 2009)

Once again I'm forced to defend NaruSaku 

How can ANYONE say that the ramen scene or even henge scene are silly or not worthy of consideration?

Yeah - if you ignore the factors that led to them.

Naruto was upset how Sakura had beaten him over the accident kiss with Sasuke. He was frustrated seeing the guy he could barely stand deserving Sakura's fawning. So let me remind you that Sakura's being an awful bitch to Naruto isn't to be forgotten. He basically did it to find out what Sakura thought about him and then got carried away by the moment and his obvious childness. He is intrigued by Sakura for bigger reasons than physical attraction naysayers. And when Sakura was made a promise by him she remembered that SCENE - that very scene you all demonize as stupid and childish - and she nearly choked on her tears - thanking Naruto and regretting what she had done in his regards.

Now ramen scene. Sakura willingly approached physically Naruto for what he had told her in the hospital broken-arm scene - and you call that SILLY? NaruSaku isn't silly. It is subtle and without words. Making it an ambiguous relationship built on development and acknowledgment - though it cannot satisfactorily be considered romantic [imo]. This "shrugging off" is sickening. NaruHina was something that was clearly on the platonic and non-romantic level when it came to mutual interaction. The same thing CANNOT be said about NaruSaku in the same extent, no matter what "lack of intiative" you think there is. Naruto and Sakura have plenty of feelings for each other - but they do not meet on a romantic level so far. No one can say for sure what is the reason for that. Anti fans will have their belief on that matter.

And NO, just cos Naruto has shown some uneasiness towards homosexual interaction does NOT mean he is a homophobic and diehard heterosexual. He is a CLEAR fan of deep relationships - _whatever_ the sort, as shown by his heated defence of Zabu/Haku. Also things such as the examples provided to support such notion are highly justifiable or can be counter-argued with other evidence, let alone the fact people can change or have exceptions. I don't appreciate the "Yaoi ending is for Yaoi mangas" slogan when anyone who isn't in denial can see they clearly have an ambiguous relationship. Keep these condemnations out if this is a NH/SS/NS debate thread. The fail of various relationships isn't going to change just cos this is shounen.


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## Kage (Mar 20, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *This "shrugging off" is sickening. NaruHina was something that was clearly on the platonic and non-romantic level when it came to mutual interaction. The same thing CANNOT be said about NaruSaku in the same extent, no matter what "lack of intiative" you think there is.* Naruto and Sakura have plenty of feelings for each other - but they do not meet on a romantic level so far. No one can say for sure what is the reason for that. Anti fans will have their belief on that matter.



dear lord thank you.

i try to point this out and get jabs at my OTP as a result 

and the 'nothing sakura and naruto do together is serious for anything other then lulz' speech of course.

it's refreshing but mostly sad that only a handful of Anti fans can be reasonable about this despite their preference.


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## Emily (Mar 20, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Love is always a bit selfish, that's why I clearly stated that I am not actually planning on lining any pairing completely out yet. 
I believe that there will be more of Hinata and Naruto but I'm not expecting as much as most of the other NH fans. I usually prefer no pairings, but IF one pairing were to become canon, of course I wish for it to be NaruHina. However, with its lack of development (more about this on my reply to Kyuubi), I'd prefer NaruSaku although I don't recognize myself as a fan.

As for Sasuke and Naruto considering Sakura and Hinata as trusted friends, I do have noticed that. Of course I have. I'm not some n00b who's just entered these forums. I have read the manga. It's just that there hasn't been any romantic, mutual situations between these characters. As for Sasuke just being focused on his revenge, I beg to differ. As Orochimaru and Kabuto stated, Naruto is taking Sasuke's thoughts away from revenge which was a problem to the bad guys in turn. Also we know for sure that Sasuke spent some of his spare time with Naruto, they did get to know each other. Then think about how he acted around Sakura; most of the time rather coldly. He was blunt. Never seemed to be interested in getting to know her better. So what I'm implying here is that maybe there was an actual love triangle. Or that's what I have thought since I began reading "Naruto". *small smile*




When it comes to Naruto and Sakura, I sure have heard of that kind of opinion plenty of times during my stay here. I find the PoaL very noble of Naruto. Maybe he did acknowledge Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, but don't you think that him choosing Sakura's happiness over his own is very mature, much more meaningful than Sakura cheerleading behind Sasuke - I mean of course she did a lot more than that, but seldom did Sasuke appreciate it -? In my opinion it says that he was being very serious with Sakura. Also at the same time, Naruto can sympathize with her, share her pain that Sasuke caused for both of them. He could understand. So, okay, he hasn't mentioned the promise ever since (unless we count his latest databook profile), but how has Sakura implied that she's still interested in Sasuke romantic way? I have only seen her wanting to bring him back, and to me it seems that she's more interested in bringing him back for Naruto than herself.

As for the feeding scene, even I could notice that Naruto is still interested in Sakura in some level. He complained about Konohamaru "ruining the mood", so even if Sakura didn't consider it romantic, Naruto clearly thought there was something to ruin. 

And, finally, for your thoughts on NaruSaku: my thoughts are pretty similar regarding SasuSaku. In my opinion it can work brilliantly as a friendship, both being smart and working some time together, but that's it. Whereas there is a lot of development between Sakura and Naruto, there's not much markable things in Sasuke and Sakura's friendship. They didn't seem that close friends to me even if Sasuke did consider Sakura a good teammate. So, wishing for them to become lovers would require quite a lot of development, and I can hardly imagine Kishimoto doing that. NaruHina has got very little of that, too, but the difference is that their relationship has always been surrounded by positive aspects.



kyuubi425 said:


> None of the big 3 are. Romantically at least. Yet.



Uh-huh, but there's many kinds of development. Even when we're talking about the platonic development, I still think that NaruHina and SasuSaku are the ones with the least of that.



> Yet still considers Sakura a precious person he was once willing to sacrifice his life to protect in the Gaara fight. Remember the Forest of Death.



Um, yeah? I said he paid _more_ attention to Itachi and Naruto. He also considers Kakashi as a precious person and has saved him too. He also cares about his family. Has done all of that and then a bit more for Naruto.



> Actually, they do indeed have gfreat chemistry and communication, as noted in the Chuunin Exam. What NH lacks is screen time [not that it really needs soooo much]. But it isn't over yet. We've only reached the beginning of the end. I have faith in Kishi's ability.



Yeah well, it may be just the lack of screen time. I don't have much to disagree with you anyway.



> How is taking them as they are presented [brotherhood and friendship] not taking them seriously?
> 
> SasuNaru and "typical heterosexual relationships" aside [since anyone seriously thinking there's going to be a yaoi ending really needs to look for some yaoi manga. Naruto explicitly expressed he sees Sasuke as a brother, and shows disgust towards homosexuality, and attraction towards women despite his strong bond with his rival], NaruSaku's weakness is not only internal [Naruto's lack of effort and Sakura's lack of consideration], but external [Sakura's pre-established love for Sasuke, Naruto's acceptance of those feelings, Hinata's established love for Naruto].



Aah, pardon me. Was talking about how they're taken romantically among the fans of other fandoms. They're awfully often treated like they don't stand the slightest chance, but then again NH and SS are both one-sided romantic relationships. 


*Spoiler*: _SN_ 



Well, I have yet to meet a SasuNaru fan who really believes that it's canon, so I suppose that's not a problem in this thread. However that does not erase the possibility of there being _one-sided_ romantic feelings, which is the most I am hoping for as a fan of said pairing. Also, Naruto seeing Sasuke his brother can be argued with (in my opinion) quite good points, but since this is not the thread for it I won't go there.




I think Izzy covered the rest pretty nicely.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 20, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Once again I'm forced to defend NaruSaku
> 
> How can ANYONE say that the ramen scene or even henge scene are silly or not worthy of consideration?



Who is saying that? They both clearly establish certain key elements - Naruto and Sakura growing closer to finding Sasuke and why Naruto liked Sakura in the first place respectively- that have come up in the manga.



> Yeah - if you ignore the factors that led to them.
> 
> Naruto was upset how Sakura had beaten him over the accident kiss with Sasuke. He was frustrated seeing the guy he could barely stand deserving Sakura's fawning. So let me remind you that Sakura's being an awful bitch to Naruto isn't to be forgotten. He basically did it to find out what Sakura thought about him and then got carried away by the moment and his obvious childness. He is intrigued by Sakura for bigger reasons than physical attraction naysayers. And when Sakura was made a promise by him she remembered that SCENE - that very scene you all demonize as stupid and childish - and she nearly choked on her tears - thanking Naruto and regretting what she had done in his regards.
> 
> Now ramen scene. Sakura willingly approached physically Naruto for what he had told her in the hospital broken-arm scene - and you call that SILLY? NaruSaku isn't silly. It is subtle and without words. Making it an ambiguous relationship built on development and acknowledgment - *though it cannot satisfactorily be considered romantic* [imo].



I agree, especially the bolded part.



> This "shrugging off" is sickening.



Again, who is shrugging anything off?  



> NaruHina was something that was clearly on the platonic and non-romantic level when it came to mutual interaction. The same thing CANNOT be said about NaruSaku in the same extent, no matter what "lack of intiative" you think there is. *Naruto and Sakura have plenty of feelings for each other - but they do not meet on a romantic level so far*. No one can say for sure what is the reason for that. Anti fans will have their belief on that matter.



Again, I agree for the most part.  However, it seems that NaruHina on _Hinata's_ end is not platonic.

I'm not commenting on NaruSasu- it's not the place.



> dear lord thank you.
> 
> i try to point this out and get jabs at my OTP as a result
> 
> ...



I'm glad so many people are just so _honorable and reasonable_- keep the insults out thank you.

I don't know why saying, 'this relationship has little to no romantic growth' is tantamount to saying, 'this relationship sucks and doesn't mean a thing.'
Naruto and Sakura have developed a strong bond.  They have an admirable friendship.  They support each other in bringing back Sasuke.  Why does this have to go to the wayside when I say, 'but they haven't moved past a crush romantically?'


----------



## Kage (Mar 21, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> I'm glad so many people are just so _honorable and reasonable_- keep the insults out thank you.


wha?  i don't recall insulting anybody. unless you consider the fact that i don't agree with you insulting well then there's not much i can do about that.

and you should take your own advice. you're far more patronizing then you need to be.



> I don't know why saying, *'this relationship has little to no romantic growth' is tantamount to saying, 'this relationship sucks and doesn't mean a thing.'*
> Naruto and Sakura have developed a strong bond.  They have an admirable friendship.  They support each other in bringing back Sasuke.  Why does this have to go to the wayside when I say, 'but they haven't moved past a crush romantically?'



because that's exactly what it sounds like when you dismiss/nitpick just about everything that gives the relationship some potential. but anything in regards to other one-sided crushes/feelings (whatever you want to call it) in which the characters rarely interact has far more potential for moving past platonic because one is in love and the other is not. go figure.

so their relationship as just friends is meaningful and beautiful so long as they keep thinking about sasuke and never consider each other right?

they haven't moved past a crush romantically yes but then again no one else has. at least anyone who might have hasn't had the honor of having it reciprocated.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 21, 2009)

Because I missed a few points earlier.



izzyisozaki said:


> You have no idea what LOVE I'm talking about. You can't truly love someone if you don't know them. This is how I'll explain.
> Sakura hated Naruto in the beginning. She got to know him and she likes him knowing and tolerating him.



I seem to have agreed with you about this...



> Hinata liked Naruto in the beginning. She didn't get to know him and she continues to like him for what he represents.
> That is blind love. Close friendship or true love closes its eyes.



And this is where I'll have to disagree.  Hinata _does _know Naruto.  She knew him better than most before the manga started.  She showed this in the chuunin exam.  She knew then how hard he had to try, how many times he failed.  But what did she admire about him?  That he got back up again.  Something it took quite awhile for the rest of the rookies to see.
The thing is that even when Naruto brought up his faults- she didn't disagree with him, but rather pointed out his good points instead.  She accepts him for who he is, faults and all.




kageneko said:


> because that's exactly what it sounds like when you dismiss/nitpick just about everything that gives the relationship some potential.



Sorry, it's called a straw man arguement.  Taking a postition I am not defending- Naruto and Sakura's relationship hasn't grown- and opposing it instead of the position I am defending-Naruto and Sakura's relationship hasn't grown in a romantic way.



> but anything in regards to other one-sided crushes/feelings (whatever you want to call it) in which the characters rarely interact has far more potential for moving past platonic because one is in love and the other is not. go figure.



Well, I would consider a onesided interaction to have more potential to move past platonic when one is _in love_ with the other, than a onesided interaction were neither one is in love with the other.




> so their relationship as just friends is meaningful and beautiful so long as they keep thinking about sasuke and never consider each other right?



But the thing is they never consider the other on Sakura's side, and Naruto hasn't since the PoaL.



> they haven't moved past a crush romantically yes but then again no one else has. at least anyone who might have hasn't had the honor of having it reciprocated.



Errr:
*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm pretty sure Hinata has moved on beyond a crush on Naruto.


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## Kage (Mar 21, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Sorry, it's called a straw man arguement.  Taking a postition I am not defending- Naruto and Sakura's relationship hasn't grown- and opposing it instead of the position I am defending-Naruto and Sakura's relationship hasn't grown in a romantic way.



that would be all fine and well if you didn't chalk up everything they have (be it friendship or the questionable otherwise) to just sasuke, confidence issues and the fact that there are other people whom they have one-sided affections for.

not really accusing you of it but depending on the argument naruto goes from earning sakura's respect and trust, to having it handed to him cause of sasuke's supposed good influence on her. or concern for naruto and his feelings get turned into feelings of pity, insecurities and guilt that overshadow everything else that implies it's for him because of him etc...



> Well, I would consider a onesided interaction to have more potential to move past platonic when one is _in love_ with the other, than a onesided interaction were neither one is in love with the other.



and i think it isn't too far-fetched for people who get to know each other well and form a good friendship to have that develop into something more (all the better if one held a romantic interest initially) as opposed to being in love with someone who has never showed a romantic interest in the first place. on top of not being very close to said object of affection.

you can't drive a car with only two wheels you know. loving someone doesn't mean they have to/will love you back.




> But the thing is they never consider the other on Sakura's side, and Naruto hasn't since the PoaL.


*sigh* KN4 was all about sasuke right? and um confidence issues >_> 
so was the concern she expressed for his well being during the rescue gaara arc too. not saying that does much for romance but you can't say sakura doesn't consider naruto because she does. 

whether you want to believe it or not it isn't always because she's just thinking of sasuke and that in turn makes her consider naruto.

can't say much for naruto though other then what's obvious in his desire to protect her and all his precious people really. but then again i already said i believe naruto shouldn't have to sit around dwelling on his woes concerning the lack of a love life with sakura either.

*Spoiler*: __ 




by this logic naruto should have been fretting over hinata's confession inside of his mind in order for it to be considered at all yes? or does having bigger priorities finally become applicable as a reason? 






> Errr:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



all the good that will do her if naruto doesn't reciprocate or at least express an interest in reciprocating her feelings.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 21, 2009)

kageneko said:


> can't say much for naruto though other then what's obvious in his desire to protect her and all his precious people really. but then again i already said i believe naruto shouldn't have to sit around dwelling on his woes concerning the lack of a love life with sakura either.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Honestly the only person Naruto seems to fret _constantly_ over for either distance or danger is Sasuke 





moonjump05 said:


> The thing is that even when Naruto brought up his faults- she didn't disagree with him, but rather pointed out his good points instead.  She accepts him for who he is, faults and all.



The same thing Sakura did too before she got to know Sasuke


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## moonjump05 (Mar 21, 2009)

kageneko said:


> that would be all fine and well if you didn't chalk up everything they have (be it friendship or the questionable otherwise) to just sasuke, confidence issues and the fact that there are other people whom they have one-sided affections for.



While those reasons you mentioned do exist- it is obvious to me at least that Naruto and Sakura care about each other as well as friends and teammates.  However a large part, but not all, of their bond is because they understand how important bringing Sasuke back is to each other, and a big part of why Sakura wants to help Naruto is because for a long time she wasn't able to contribute to the team effort.  These reasons to nothing to degrade their friendship, they are just reasons why.




> and i think it isn't too far-fetched for people who get to know each other well and form a good friendship to have that develop into something more (all the better if one held a romantic interest initially) as opposed to being in love with someone who has never showed a romantic interest in the first place. on top of not being very close to said object of affection.



I understand what you are saying, however Naruto and Sakura seem to bypass every chance they get for becoming more _romantically _involved with each other.  There were places where a conceivable romantic raport could have been established, but all we get are rejected date requests and white eyes of doom until even Naruto doesn't seem interested anymore.




> you can't drive a car with only two wheels you know. loving someone doesn't mean they have to/will love you back.



No, but it can certainly open up that someone's eyes, especially if they aren't that focused on romance to begin with.





> *sigh* KN4 was all about sasuke right? and um confidence issues >_>
> so was the concern she expressed for his well being during the rescue gaara arc too. not saying that does much for romance but you can't say sakura doesn't consider naruto because she does.



She considers him a friend and teammate.



> whether you want to believe it or not it isn't always because she's just thinking of sasuke and that in turn makes her consider naruto.



I don't remember saying it does.



> can't say much for naruto though other then what's obvious in his desire to protect her and all his precious people really. but then again i already said i believe naruto shouldn't have to sit around dwelling on his woes concerning the lack of a love life with sakura either.



No, but at least in Part 1 we get him looking sad in the hospital and accepting if still sad during the PoaL.  We simply don't get anything like that since then concerning his romantic feelings for her.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Quite honestly I expect some reaction once the fight is done, this is shounen after all the fight comes first.  A few chapters at most- not near two hundred of him _not _thinking about his romantic feelings for Sakura in a serious light.
I see no reason why Naruto would not at least consider reciprocating her feelings.  He has to at least think about it.  Does he have to jump up and say, 'Hina-chan!  I wub u 2!  Let's make babiez!'  Of course not, but for Naruto, the guy who has never been anyone else's goal, who had to struggle for the bonds he had, who wants to make more bonds to reject her outright screams OOC to me.






> The same thing Sakura did too before she got to know Sasuke



Huh?


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## Emily (Mar 21, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> She considers him a friend and teammate.



Now this sounds similar... Oh yeah, Sasuke considers Sakura a friend and teammate. Naruto considers Hinata a friend.

Sakura never said - anywhere - what she really thinks of Naruto so in my honest opinion the possibility of romantic feelings can't be forcefully ruled out just because she had romantic feelings for Sasuke 259 chapters ago. Also it seems that Kishimoto has made her feelings ambiguous for a reason.


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## Kage (Mar 21, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly the only person Naruto seems to fret _constantly_ over for either distance or danger is Sasuke




*Spoiler*: __ 



and the urge to point out that oh so important _hetero_ romantic requirement had to be ruthlessly stomped on i assure you 
because i can't bring that up without being off topic. i'm trying to be good Izzy! 





> While those reasons you mentioned do exist- it is obvious to me at least that Naruto and Sakura care about each other as well as friends and teammates. However a large part, but not all, of their bond is because they understand how important bringing Sasuke back is to each other, and a big part of why Sakura wants to help Naruto is because for a long time she wasn't able to contribute to the team effort. These reasons to nothing to degrade their friendship, they are just reasons why.


i'd say the big part of why she wants to help naruto is because she wants to help naruto  but for the most part i agree. 
 i also happen to think that somewhere along the line naruto worries less about how important it is to sakura to bring sasuke back not only because he's mostly motivated by his own reasons but because sakura _never presses the issue with him._ and by that i mean it's more likely for naruto to bring up sasuke in their conversations.



> I understand what you are saying, however Naruto and Sakura seem to bypass every chance they get for becoming more romantically involved with each other. There were places where a conceivable romantic raport could have been established, but all we get are rejected date requests and white eyes of doom until even Naruto doesn't seem interested anymore.



if you're going to look at things that way then it's safe to say that every pair missed such a chance. naruto/hinata at the chuunin exams. she encouraged/cheered him up when he was down, admitted that she didn't want to see him disappear and called him a proud failure. naruto responded with slight shock, gratitude and then 'i like people like you!' and that was it. romantic raport went right over his head.

sasusaku the same. only in this case instead of bringing them closer together romantically it only bonded them closer as a team since it was during this time sasuke managed to gain some respect for her as a result of working through the exam.  

the difference between this and NaruSaku is the number of _opportunities_ missed because between the 3 narusaku has the most panel time.



> No, but it can certainly open up that someone's eyes, especially if they aren't that focused on romance to begin with.


still doesn't guarantee anything. 

if a casual acquaintance or just someone you get along with fairly well but rarely see admitted to being in love with you, what would be the first thing to cross your mind?

that maybe you should look into these feelings and pursue a relationship despite not having the thought cross your mind to begin with?

somehow forcing yourself to consider the idea when it's not something you're really focused on at all doesn't really bode well with me.



> She considers him a friend and teammate.


what caran said 


> No, but at least in Part 1 we get him looking sad in the hospital and accepting if still sad during the PoaL. We simply don't get anything like that since then concerning his romantic feelings for her.



because since then dwelling on his feelings for sakura takes a back seat to retrieving the most important bond in his life. which in the hospital was not a concern at the time and during the Poal were he was confident in being successful.  


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Quite honestly I expect some reaction once the fight is done, this is shounen after all the fight comes first. A few chapters at most- not near two hundred of him not thinking about his romantic feelings for Sakura in a serious light.



this is what i don't understand. and yet for the same reason,not near two hundred chapters of him not even _seeing_ hinata is enough to make him consider seriously reciprocating her feelings in a few?



> I see no reason why Naruto would not at least consider reciprocating her feelings. He has to at least think about it. Does he have to jump up and say, 'Hina-chan! I wub u 2! Let's make babiez!' Of course not, but for Naruto, the guy who has never been anyone else's goal, who had to struggle for the bonds he had, who wants to make more bonds to reject her outright screams OOC to me.



i honestly don't know what to make of any possible reactions to it in the aftermath. acceptance or not. but it sounds to me like with the way it's being talked about around here that while many don't expect him to immediately take to the idea they don't expect him to say _no_ either.

and in all honesty i can't image that myself, however it's possible to accept her feelings _without_ returning them. and i'm pretty sure he can do that without managing to be an OOC jackass about it because bonds are indeed important to him. say he does consider it for a few chapters, would you be satisfied with that even if the answer is no?


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 21, 2009)

kageneko said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



You're sure a lot better at behaving than me 



What I really can't tolerate is this "Naruto rejecting Hinata would be OOC"  like lolwut? Naruto getting in a relationship with Hinata when he doesn't feel the same would be OOC. And apparently NaruSaku isn't allowed to have time to develop when they have bigger issues on their mind whereas NaruHina can pop out of no where


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## Kathutet (Mar 21, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> She considers him a friend and teammate.
> 
> but for Naruto, the guy who has never been anyone else's goal, who had to struggle for the bonds he had, who wants to make more bonds to reject her outright screams OOC to me.


My good friend, everybody is a friend and a teammate in Naruto. Hinata is a friend. Shino, Kiba, Kakashi,... Do I need to continue? Why is it, that Naruto should not even look at Sakura anymore, and vice versa, and he should give someone he has not even had a decent conversation with since he fought against Neji a chance?

The OOC part is highly hypocritical. See above.
I want Gabzilla here, /sigh...


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## Erendhyl (Mar 21, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Why is it, that Naruto should not even look at Sakura anymore, and vice versa, and he should give someone he has not even had a decent conversation with since he fought against Neji a chance?



No one's saying (at least, I don't think anyone's saying) that Naruto shouldn't look at Sakura romantically anymore. What we're saying is that we _don't see_ him looking at Sakura romantically anymore.

As people have said before, Naruto and Sakura have a great deal of panel time together, as they are two of the three main characters. Since Naruto sees Sakura a lot, it wouldn't be all that unreasonable for him to think about her once or twice in an obviously romantic light. I'm not saying have chapters devoted to Naruto fantasizing about Sakura, because retrieving Sasuke will come before romance for him, but just one or two panels of him thinking about her wouldn't be that unreasonable to add. If your crush it sitting right in front of you, chances are that at some point in about 200 chapters, you're going to think of your feelings for them. Instead, we get some date requests that he wasn't even considering making five seconds before. It just doesn't sound like even Naruto is taking his pursuit of Sakura seriously.

Now onto the second part of your post: why he would give Hinata a chance. In the previous paragraph, I explained why I personally don't see Naruto as being all that serious in his pursuit of Sakura. Assuming that's correct though, why would he consider accepting Hinata's feelings?

In childhood, Naruto was always alone. For nearly four years now, he hasn't been, but he still has to remember what those first twelve years were like. He remembers how painful that darkness was, and he remembers what it was that brought him out of it: his precious people. He comments during his fight with Gaara that this is why he is so determined to save and protect them, because they saved him already.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Now, he hears from Hinata that he has been that precious person to her; that it was he that pulled her from her darkness.


We've seen the degree of a bond that he formed with Gaara simply because he could empathize with his plight. Why wouldn't he do the same thing with Hinata now?

During her introduction before the first part of the Chuunin Exams, Naruto describes Hinata as "a weirdo who always looks away when I talk to her. A shy, dark girl." This leads me to believe that he wasn't aware at this time of the situation she had with her family, where she was nearly as alone as him. While Hinata had her clan, her father considered her a disgrace, Neji wanted to kill her, and she was sent to live with Kurenai before becoming a genin. With Sasuke, Naruto knew that he was alone, and obsessed over him because of it, forming their rivalry because he wanted to be like Sasuke. If he had known that Hinata was in nearly the same situation as him and Sasuke, would Naruto not have approached her and tried to become her friend? She wasn't a genius, nor was she particularly popular in the Academy, and, with her father's declaration that she was less valuable than Hanabi, her social status had become rather irrelevant; there was nothing to isolate Naruto from Hinata the way there was to isolate him from Sasuke.

Basically, the fact that Naruto has just now heard of someone else like him, someone who knows the pain of loneliness, in itself is enough to mean that he will start forming a strong bond with Hinata now. Add to that the fact that she said that it was Naruto who saved her, back at a time when he really was dead last in their class, and I think that Naruto will be pretty intrigued.

So why does that mean that Naruto will fall in love with her? It doesn't. However, he is going to be paying a lot more attention to her now because of the reasons described above.
*Spoiler*: __ 



He's not oblivious to her feelings anymore. He's going to think about them, because they are a part of Hinata. If someone confesses their love to you and says that they're not afraid to die in order to protect you, chances are that you will at least ponder your own feelings for them before outright rejection. Naruto knows how it feels to be rejected from his crush on Sakura. And he also knows how it felt to be rejected by Sasuke, the person that he admired and wanted to be like. He fills both roles to Hinata. Is he really going to just reject her and give her that pain without even considering the possibility of the two of them together?


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## Entaria (Mar 21, 2009)

Wow lots of debate and stuff on whos Naruto going to end up with. I probably prefer Naruto with Hinata but it doesn't really bother me but I think theres an even chance because Hinata might be able to be more open towards Naruto after expressing her feelings and I get the feeling that Sakura might have a slight romantic interest in Naruto!!


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## Kanai (Mar 21, 2009)

Personally, I'm actually fine with NaruHina. Even though I prefer NaruSaku, i'm fine. >_> 

The only thing is, what is NARUTO going to do about 
*Spoiler*: __ 



the confession?

Cause, well, you can't really say that he was THAT romantically interested in Hinata, no? Up until then, he did still have some sort of interest for Sakura, but he was mostly intent on getting back Sasuke. 

So, if he implies that he still doesn't like Hinata, it'll be heartbreaking for her. NaruHina fans will be outraged at how poorly Naruto treated her. But, it isn't Naruto's fault if he doesn't like her. Just like it isn't Sasuke's fault that he doesn't like Sakura. Just like it isn't Sakura's fault that she might not like Naruto. 

But then, if he loves her back, most NaruHina fans will be enthusiastic, I'm sure. But, can you really call that mutual love? No offense, but NaruSaku has had much more development. I'm not saying that this implies that they have to be a couple, but I'm just saying that I haven't seen much development between Naruto and Hinata, so I can't agree with Naruto going, "Omg, she loves me.. I think I love her!" 

>_< Either way, Masashi Kimoto has brewed another pairing war. 

To solve this, one way would be to kill Hinata, and have Naruto's feelings for her undetermined, but at this point, I doubt Hinata will truly die. Kishi has a nice habit of putting people near the gates of death, then reviving them. Aka, Neji, Chouji, Kiba, Naruto, and a whole lotta others. 
Which leads me to another point: If Hinata was placed so close to Naruto, when Nagato made that ball-thing that encased Naruto, could she have been in it? If so, that's... utter crap. >_> 




//end rant. Thing.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 21, 2009)

^ 

The thing with that is

*Spoiler*: __ 



 I can still see Hinata dying at this time, because of the finality i found in her words, beyond the fact that sadly Kishimoto has made it depressingly apparent that Naruto is the only reason she breathes, confessing to him at this critical time after him being so oblivious and then dying would mature him greatly.


As logically responding to a confession, like you said, after not being particularly receptive to said female in a romantic manner for almost the entirety of the series is more than a little baffling to me.

 Especially when he has other things to deal with...if Kakashi or shizune can die after this, i find it fitting with the storyline. Then it would atleast give her more relevance beyond being a 





> "ROMANTIC LOVE INTEREST"


, i can't say say i wanted it for her, and its had me pissed for a while now.

Beyond that however...on the major pairing front...i can't see him returning her feelings in any case...it may probably just be my bias, but i've seen Naruto's dedication to Sakura in many situations in the series, and beyond that, i've seen Sakura's disposition towards him become more and more evident in the past chapters...which annoys me somewhat because it seems like after such a dramatic confession via Hinata, Kishimoto would take that and put it in a box after all of these sideways hints at something


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## Kage (Mar 21, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> You're sure a lot better at behaving than me



*Spoiler*: __ 



your fuse is shorter then mine love  plus you expose yourself to naysayers more. it's only natural.






> What I really can't tolerate is this "Naruto rejecting Hinata would be OOC"
> like lolwut? Naruto getting in a relationship with Hinata when he doesn't feel the same would be OOC. And apparently NaruSaku isn't allowed to have time to develop when they have bigger issues on their mind whereas NaruHina can pop out of no where



and once again you hit the nail right on the head. 
and this is exactly why, for me, as a naruhina fan, if it were to happen now victory would seem rather hollow. :/


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 21, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> ^
> 
> The thing with that is
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



But the thing is, Naruto already thinks that Hinata is dead when Pain stabbed her.  It would just be anti-climatic if Naruto has to see her die _again_.

Sakura: Hey Naruto, Hinata is still alive.

Naruto: Really!? 

Sakura: Yeah.  But she's about to die anyways.

Naruto: Oh. 

I just don't see on how that would work.

After this whole Pain matter is dealt with, I don't see why he wouldn't give some thought about her feelings for him.  I mean, think about it.  A girl that just confessed her love to you, says that you're the reason she didn't go the wrong way, and was willing to die protecting you, I don't see on how he could just simply shrug that off.  I think it would be very OOC for him.

Just so you know, Naruto has shown a lot of dedication to all of his friends.  By far, he's shown the most dedication to the one he considers like a brother to him, Sasuke.  I don't see him giving more or less to Sakura than he has to any of his other good friends.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 21, 2009)

^


*Spoiler*: __ 






starkiller88 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





I never said it would be like that, she doesn't have to stay alive before Naruto gets back, and even then had your scenario actually come to pass, how different would it have been from asuma? But i'm not intending to debate whether she'll live or die here, its just a theory i've got.



> After this whole Pain matter is dealt with, I don't see why he wouldn't give some thought about her feelings for him.  I mean, think about it.  A girl that just confessed her love to you, says that you're the reason she didn't go the wrong way, and was willing to die protecting you, I don't see on how he could just simply shrug that off.  I think it would be very OOC for him.



I never said that he woulden't "think about it". My point was that i don't see how he could shrug off his feelings for Sakura that i feel are there, for Hinata who he's barely talked to or even knows. Multiplied by the fact that it even further angers me from your own words, as to how the situation has been placed on Naruto so as to be obligated to return her feelings because of the paramount situation her confession was placed in. I don't see that as some kind of mutual romantic development, not at all.



> Just so you know, Naruto has shown a lot of dedication to all of his friends.  By far, he's shown the most dedication to the one he considers like a brother to him, Sasuke.  I don't see him giving more or less to Sakura than he has to any of his other good friends.



If this is how you feel, then obviously you are one who does not feel that Naruto has serious romantic feelings for Sakura based on his own actions and feelings in regard to that girl, and if that's your opinion i can't sway you. There are things that can be argued and things that will go in a loop regardless of what is brought out, and this is one of those things.


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## Emily (Mar 21, 2009)

kageneko said:


> and this is exactly why, for me, as a naruhina fan, if it were to happen now victory would seem rather hollow. :/



Ugh, I agree. I mean, if you're going to make _any_ pairings, please, at least show some mutual development between the two characters... AsuKure was a good one for a pairing in a shounen manga in my opinion even with the lack of screentime, so of course I'd be disappointed if Naruto were to start considering Hinata romantically _now_, after he's being kind of "forced" to.


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## tyheru (Mar 21, 2009)

Okay this is apart from the topic you guys were debating, but I feel I should fix a common misconceptions about NaruHina fans. A lot of people think NaruHina fans like Hinata because she's so quiet and submissive and shy. This is not true.

To be honest her shy quiet personality doesn't do anything for me really. Let me put it like this. Say the situation was reversed. Hinata was in Sasuke's team and she was Sasuke's fangirl. She still has her quiet and shy personality and she's still nice to Naruto, but she's crazy over Sasuke. Meanwhile Sakura is in team 8, but she has a big crush on Naruto. She's still has the same personality and she even responds with violence when naruto does sexy no jutsu. But secretly she's in love with Naruto and has always been inspired by Naruto and always saw the potential in Naruto. If this scenario was the case, I would be a big Sakura fan and a big NaruSaku fan. Most of Hinata's fanbase is a compliment to Naruto, it's the fact that she was mature enough to understand that being awesome looking and the best rookie ninja is not what makes a person a good lover.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 21, 2009)

^ There are NaruHina fans who think like that including all of the tropes that they hate concerning the "rival character". But to generalize i agree is plenty ignorant.

However i'm not understanding your point, your saying that people like NaruHina because Hinata saw Naruto as someone to look up to before most people, okay i understand that. I am attracted to that subset of NaruHina.

But really..is that all that there is when concerning NaruHina? They haven't talked much...they've hardly gone through any painstaking situations together in which they'd get to know one another intimately...and Naruto acknowledges her as a person to be respected, but has never seen her in a romantic light before...

Why is it, that because Hinata knew about Naruto "before anybody" makes it so that she is the one who "deserves him"? Because that's what i've always heard, and that's what i'm hearing from you now as well.


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## Zeky (Mar 21, 2009)

^ I agree on the fact that makin NH cannon right now would be silly. I believe that the confession was only the begining, it is the FACT that is going to allow them to develop their relationship. As for me... i only expect some kind of reaction from Naruto after pain is gone (assuming she will survive of course).


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## Tsukasa009 (Mar 21, 2009)

^ completely agreed, naruhina obviously won't just happen, the confession was a gateway for more character development to occur, if it just happened out of nowhere i think everyone would be kind of dissapointed


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 21, 2009)

The point being...that people are already jumping the gun, assuming that its a fact of life, when really..all of these issues come into play. Assuming all of these things that Naruto has to do..would developing a relationship with Hinata because she confessed to him really be something on Kishimoto's mind at this point in time? I sincerely doubt that! Especially considering all of the chances he's missed up to this point, in particular, the rescue sasuke arc we just had before the itachi sasuke fight. 

Which is one reason why i've felt all along that a NaruHina relationship would lack any type of continuity towards the plot or series in general. Because you see, there was time to develop NaruHina up to this point and make it believable for everyone involved so that this confession would not seem so repellent to fans, and Kishimoto missed it atleast 50 chapters back.


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## Milkshake (Mar 21, 2009)

^I agree, I believe it's way too late for a budding relationship of Naruto/Hinata, Kishi could've elaborated more in the chunin prelims as well but he didn't. I most I think Naruto will do in response to her confession is show graditude, ponder his feelings for her, possibly give her a 'hug' or something to show that he appreciates it(?) It's just maybe however, because Naruto never was good at these kind of things, such as with Gaara, when he didn't know what to say about his 'death' and the whole situation that occured.

I just doubt that NaruHina can develop quickly as in 10-15 chapters from now, or when Naruto beats Pain (?) because it would still seem rushed to me and not gradual romance. Naruto has never thought of Hinata in a romantic light, or wanted her acknowlegement or has needed her in any way, she was always just a nice girl who complemented him and watched from the sidelines. I just don't understand how you can develop feelings for someone who you haven't thought/ talked about in 200+ chapters, even in a friendly way. I just don't like the fact that Naruto has to develop feelings of romance that were never initially there in the first place, just due to a confession of love that Hinata harbored that he thought never existed. I don't know how to explain it properly, and I'm getting tired.


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## tyheru (Mar 21, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> ^ There are NaruHina fans who think like that including all of the tropes that they hate concerning the "rival character". But to generalize i agree is plenty ignorant.
> 
> However i'm not understanding your point, your saying that people like NaruHina because Hinata saw Naruto as someone to look up to before most people, okay i understand that. I am attracted to that subset of NaruHina.
> 
> ...




Oh don't get me wrong. The point with my post wasn't to say that because of that reason NaruHina is canon, or should become canon. I didn't say anything about Hinata deserving Naruto because of this. I was simply explaining why a lot of people liked NaruHina from the start. Whatever reason Naruto and Hinata may or may not get together has nothing to do with what I said. There are plenty of other reasons why Naruto Hinata is a good idea, and plenty of other reasons why Naruto and Sakura should  get together. All I'm saying is that what makes NaruHina attractive to me is that Hinata was that girl from the start. When Sakura wouldn't believe that Naruto was the one who saved her from Gaara, Hinata had every faith in Naruto. For most guys, this reason alone is a reason to consider Hinata as a potential love interest. It's like how a lot of guys when they are young pine over some beautiful girl that doesn't give them the time of day, when there's an equally or more beautiful girl who already loved them from the start. When a guy finds out about this, no matter what the circumstances, the girl who liked him from the start will gain a lot of points with him.

Also, I don't understand where people get this idea that Hinata's confession is too late, or that we expect NaruHina to happen just like that. First off, from the looks of it, the manga is FAR from over. We got a lot of things to cover before the manga finishes. I'm guessing another 200 chapters at least. Secondly, the confession was as good as time as any. Whether it happened a hundred episode ago or just now, a confession is a confession. In real life, people don't usually fall in love and get married to their best friend anyways. It's a sweet idea and when it happens it's very romantic, but most of the time best friends just remain best friends. And Kishimoto has done very little to develop the romantic relationship between Naruto and Sakura, he hasn't done much more with that than with Hinata. So really, it could go either way.

What I think is going to happen is that Kishimoto is going to ignore any romantic developments for the most part, there will hints and sweet moments here and there, between NaruHina and NaruSaku. IF Kishimoto solves the NaruHina or NaruSaku mystery, it will be at the end of the manga. And even then I doubt he's going to seriously wrap up the romantic relationships. Best keep it open and leave it to fanfiction writers to come up with their own stories and how it ends.

Anyways Inuhunyou, I'm a little confused by you. You have a NaruHina avatar and NaruHina sig, yet you're arguing against NaruHina?


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## moonjump05 (Mar 21, 2009)

> Now this sounds similar... Oh yeah, Sasuke considers Sakura a friend and teammate. Naruto considers Hinata a friend.
> 
> Sakura never said - anywhere - what she really thinks of Naruto so in my honest opinion the possibility of romantic feelings can't be forcefully ruled out just because she had romantic feelings for Sasuke 259 chapters ago. Also it seems that Kishimoto has made her feelings ambiguous for a reason.



That's the thing, where you see ambiguity I don't.  She treats him like a friend and teammate and that's it.  I dont' remember ever disagreeing that Sasuke and Naruto treat Sakura and Hinata as teammates and friends respectively.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> this is what i don't understand. and yet for the same reason,not near two hundred chapters of him not even seeing hinata is enough to make him consider seriously reciprocating her feelings in a few?



Hinata just doesn't appear that often.  But Sakura is there in front of his face in every arc.  It would be natural for him to think about Sakura more often-just because she appears more- but we don't even get that.



> and in all honesty i can't image that myself, however it's possible to accept her feelings without returning them. and i'm pretty sure he can do that without managing to be an OOC jackass about it because bonds are indeed important to him. say he does consider it for a few chapters, would you be satisfied with that even if the answer is no?



Of course, but I've seen alot around here that he's going to immediately shoot her down too.






> What I really can't tolerate is this "Naruto rejecting Hinata would be OOC"  like lolwut? Naruto getting in a relationship with Hinata when he doesn't feel the same would be OOC. And apparently NaruSaku isn't allowed to have time to develop when they have bigger issues on their mind whereas NaruHina can pop out of no where



Naruto immediately rejecting Hinata would be OOC.  Naruto getting into a relationship with her even if he doesn't feel the same would be OOC.  I would expect him to think on it and consider it.
NaruSaku just hasn't developed for me, YMMV.

I don't know where you are getting that NaruHina _has _to happen now.  That he _has _to return her feelings in intensity and immediately- because I'm surely not saying those things.  



> My good friend, everybody is a friend and a teammate in Naruto. Hinata is a friend. Shino, Kiba, Kakashi,... Do I need to continue? Why is it, that Naruto should not even look at Sakura anymore, and vice versa, and he should give someone he has not even had a decent conversation with since he fought against Neji a chance?



Because Naruto isn't looking at Sakura anymore?  That his romantic interest in her has faded to comic relief?  Why should he bother hanging onto that when someone has expressed sincere romantic interest in him?



> Why is it, that because Hinata knew about Naruto "before anybody" makes it so that she is the one who "deserves him"? Because that's what i've always heard, and that's what i'm hearing from you now as well.



It's not a question of 'deserving' him, that would ring hollow to me.  It's a stance on the opinion of others that she doesn't know him well.



> Which is one reason why i've felt all along that a NaruHina relationship would lack any type of continuity towards the plot or series in general. Because you see, there was time to develop NaruHina up to this point and make it believable for everyone involved so that this confession would not seem so repellent to fans, and Kishimoto missed it atleast 50 chapters back.



Put NaruSaku in there instead and I'll agree.  At this point it would be too late to see it as anything other than Kishi being lazy and trying to tie up loose ends before they got out of control so he can end the manga.  Of course, he'd probably have to kill off Hinata and Sasuke, have Sakura do a 180, and revert Naruto back to before the PoaL.


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## tyheru (Mar 21, 2009)

Yeah, that's another thing. Where are the anti-NaruHina people getting the idea that we think Hinata DESERVES Naruto, and that Naruto will love Hinata right away and that we think NaruHina is canon? I mean no one in this thread or on this forum is saying that. Don't attack the stawman, debate the real arguments. Anyways, I'd like a reply to my post before this one, you can ignore this one if you want to.


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## Kage (Mar 21, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Put NaruSaku in there instead and I'll agree.  At this point it would be too late to see it as anything other than Kishi being lazy and trying to tie up loose ends before they got out of control so he can end the manga. Of course, he'd probably have to kill off Hinata and Sasuke, have Sakura do a 180, and revert Naruto back to before the PoaL.



oh the irony 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Hinata just doesn't appear that often. But Sakura is there in front of his face in every arc. It would be natural for him to think about Sakura more often-just because she appears more- but we don't even get that.


and how does this make hinata's absence irrelevant when concerning a possible love life with naruto again? because naruto doesn't spend at least one moment every arc to think about sakura?


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## tyheru (Mar 21, 2009)

> and how does this make hinata's absence irrelevant when concerning a possible love life with naruto again? because naruto doesn't spend at least one moment every arc to think about sakura?



Well that whole part isn't something FOR NaruHina, it's something against NaruSaku. Why, if Naruto is still so in love with Sakura as people say he is? don't we get a few panel times with Naruto thinking about Sakura? Why don't we get any typical anime love reaction from Sakura when those comic relief dates come up? Why didn't Sakura blush or something like that when she said she'd go eat with Naruto, as long as he pays? Why didn't Sakura blush or do something similar when she offered to feed Naruto?


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## Kage (Mar 22, 2009)

tyheru said:


> Well that whole part isn't something FOR NaruHina, it's something against NaruSaku. Why, if Naruto is still so in love with Sakura as people say he is? don't we get a few panel times with Naruto thinking about Sakura? Why don't we get any typical anime love reaction from Sakura when those comic relief dates come up? Why didn't Sakura blush or something like that when she said she'd go eat with Naruto, as long as he pays? Why didn't Sakura blush or do something similar when she offered to feed Naruto?



why are we expecting so much from narusaku when we're satisfied with _far less then that_ for naruhina? is what i'm getting at.


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## tyheru (Mar 22, 2009)

> why are we expecting so much from narusaku when we're satisfied with far less then that for naruhina? is what i'm getting at.



Except that we're not really. That's what a whole lot of NakuSaku fans hate about NaruHina, and pretty much all NaruHina fans agree that there needs to be more development for NaruHina, if it's going to be canon. But even then, with NaruHina we have a clear undeniable confession of love while with NaruSaku we have pretty much nothing (in part 2).

Anyways, NaruSaku and NaruHina are different things. What should make sense for NaruSaku doesn't mean it should work the same way for NaruHina. Naruto and Sakura had plenty of moment in part 2 to show clear signs of love but they didn't(although there was one hint, when Yamato said Sakura cared a lot for Naruto). Naruto and Hinata didn't really have much chance to interact, especially in part 2, but all there interactions have been a clear sign of love from Hinata to the totally oblivious Naruto.


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## Kage (Mar 22, 2009)

tyheru said:


> Except that we're not really. That's what a whole lot of NakuSaku fans hate about NaruHina, and pretty much all NaruHina fans agree that there needs to be more development for NaruHina, if it's going to be canon. But even then, with NaruHina we have a clear undeniable confession of love while with NaruSaku we have pretty much nothing (in part 2).
> 
> Anyways, NaruSaku and NaruHina are different things. What should make sense for NaruSaku doesn't mean it should work the same way for NaruHina. Naruto and Sakura had plenty of moment in part 2 to show clear signs of love but they didn't(although there was one hint, when Yamato said Sakura cared a lot for Naruto). Naruto and Hinata didn't really have much chance to interact, especially in part 2, but all there interactions have been a clear sign of love from Hinata to the totally oblivious Naruto.




*Spoiler*: _ugh_ 



yes and because it doesn't have to work the same way it's okay for hinata's confession to be the only thing the pairing needs to get the ball rolling _despite_ the lack of interaction, _despite_ the lack of interest on naruto's part. it's had it's missed opportunities too but those are treated as a buffer of sorts that keeps the pair from crumbling in on itself and ultimately  lead to this moment and all the wonderful things that are sure to follow cause naruto clearly has no other attachments.

sorry but even as a naruhina fan _and_ anti-narusaku i'm not buying it.


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## ironblade_x1 (Mar 22, 2009)

At least the NaruHina debate has some substance now 

And the NaruSaku interactions everyone's been pointing at for Part 2 haven't been as strong as people seem to be explaining. 20 panels hardly makes a relationship, no matter how hard the anime's been nudging NaruSaku/KibaHina. 

NaruSaku in part 2: A few select scenes projected to incredible size for the sake of shipping fans. 
NaruHina in part 2: 

This hasn't been a very romance-oriented manga. It's just as easy to pass off NaruSaku as a sibling love as it is to make an argument for NaruSasu.


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## Kage (Mar 22, 2009)

ironblade_x1 said:


> And the NaruSaku interactions everyone's been pointing at for Part 2 haven't been as strong as people seem to be explaining. *20 panels hardly makes a relationship,* no matter how hard the anime's been nudging NaruSaku/KibaHina.
> 
> NaruSaku in part 2*: A few select scenes projected to incredible size for the sake of shipping fans.*
> NaruHina in part 2:


and the double standards continue 



> This hasn't been a very romance-oriented manga. It's just as easy to pass off NaruSaku as a sibling love as it is to make an argument for NaruSasu.



let's not even go there.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 22, 2009)

kageneko said:


> *Spoiler*: _ugh_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



And Sakura doesn't even need to show any romantic feelings towards Naruto to keep NaruSaku alive?  So despite the lack of mutual romantic intent and lack of interest on Sakura's part we just have to wait for Hinata and Sasuke to die for her to come to her senses?  That the whole of part 2 is just Kishi pussyfooting around their oh so obvious attraction to jump into it at the end?  because second place is fine for Sakura

Look, the confession will make Naruto have to at least think about what it means to him.  I think we can agree that he won't just shrug it off.


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## Kage (Mar 22, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



it's amazing how a confession seems to make people forget _there are no signs of mutual attraction for *any* pairing_or we wait for naruto to digest this information, have an epiphany and fall madly in love. oh and wait for sasuke to come to his senses eventually too  narusaku has at least positive mutual growth on top of the panel time that went into it. was it explicitly romantic? no. has kishimoto defined it as otherwise? no. has he made sakura's/naruto's stance on where their hearts lie *perfectly* clear? _no_

you can claim there's evidence to the contrary all you want but the fact is we don't even get the oh so important panels of sakura constantly brooding over sasuke that tell us she's already madly in love and there's no reason to think otherwise.

if there isn't a good reason for that and kishimoto's not 'pussyfooting' then what exactly does he intend to do if he's _purposely_ not making anything clear?

and no naruto shouldn't be obligated to do _anything_ even if it's not in his character to be dismissive.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 22, 2009)

kageneko said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> it's amazing how a confession seems to make people forget _there are no signs of mutual attraction for *any* pairing_or we wait for naruto to digest this information, have an epiphany and fall madly in love. oh and wait for sasuke to come to his senses eventually too  narusaku has at least positive mutual growth on top of the panel time that went into it. was it explicitly romantic? no. has kishimoto defined it as otherwise? no. *has he made sakura's/naruto's stance on where their hearts lie perfectly clear? no*




*Spoiler*: __ 



On each other?  Yes.  Sakura's on Sasuke?  Yes.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ]you can claim there's evidence to the contrary all you want but the fact is we don't even get the oh so important panels of sakura constantly brooding over sasuke that tell us she's already madly in love and there's no reason to think otherwise.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't see why she would need it.  She made her stance on her feelings for Sasuke clear in chapter 181, and nothing I've seen so far contradicts this.







> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> if there isn't a good reason for that and kishimoto's not 'pussyfooting' then what exactly does he intend to do if he's _purposely_ not making anything clear?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Seems pretty clear to me over my reading of the manga.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> and no naruto shouldn't be obligated to do _anything_ even if it's not in his character to be dismissive.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I think you misunderstand me.  Naruto isn't obligated to return feelings or anything of the sort, but to make that decision he has to consider what it means to him.


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## Rasengan2theface (Mar 22, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> ^I agree, I believe it's way too late for a budding relationship of Naruto/Hinata, Kishi could've elaborated more in the chunin prelims as well but he didn't. I most I think Naruto will do in response to her confession is show graditude, ponder his feelings for her, possibly give her a 'hug' or something to show that he appreciates it(?) It's just maybe however, because Naruto never was good at these kind of things, such as with Gaara, when he didn't know what to say about his 'death' and the whole situation that occured.
> 
> I just doubt that NaruHina can develop quickly as in 10-15 chapters from now, or when Naruto beats Pain (?) because it would still seem rushed to me and not gradual romance. Naruto has never thought of Hinata in a romantic light, *or wanted her acknowlegement* or *has needed her in any way*, she was always just a nice girl who complemented him and watched from the sidelines. *I just don't understand how you can develop feelings for someone who you haven't thought/ talked about in 200+ chapters, even in a friendly way. I just don't like the fact that Naruto has to develop feelings of romance that were never initially there in the first place, just due to a confession of love that Hinata harbored that he thought never existed.* I don't know how to explain it properly, and I'm getting tired.



I have some problems with your logic of the parts I have in bold. 

Naruto did want her acknowledgement. After he beat Neji in the Chunnin Exams, when he was looking around at the cheering crowd, he was only really looking around for one person. He says something to the effect of "Where's Hinata? Did she see me?" something along those lines. That's not an outright "Acknowledge me!" statement, but he wanted her to see that he kept his promise.

I believe whole heartedly that Naruto needed Hinata BEFORE his fight with Neji. The first time in the entire story, Naruto didn't 100% believe in his ability to win and come out on top, but Hinata tells him that she believes in him and why and Naruto's attitude turns around. I'm not sure that you could just substitue any other character in Hinata's place and have that exact same effect. Maybe the closest you could get was Iruka or Kakashi, in those terms. 

Love has to start somewhere and you don't always fall in love with someone that you're around all the time. Often enough in life, love starts out onesided because you're so whole heartedly set on another person that doesn't recipracate the feelings, thus you miss the little things that the person that truly loves you does for you, like help heal your wounds and support you in your darkest hours. Little by little, those things creep in and accumulate and when a confession occurs when you least expect it, it hits you and you suddenly see a person in a different light.


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## Milkshake (Mar 22, 2009)

Rasengan2theface said:


> I have some problems with your logic of the parts I have in bold.
> 
> Naruto did want her acknowledgement. After he beat Neji in the Chunnin Exams, when he was looking around at the cheering crowd, he was only really looking around for one person. He says something to the effect of "Where's Hinata? Did she see me?" something along those lines. That's not an outright "Acknowledge me!" statement, but he wanted her to see that he kept his promise.
> 
> ...



Exactly like you said; that wasn't an outright acknowledgement statement. Naruto wanted to keep Hinata's promise for him, so of course he wanted Hinata to see him in his victory. And I was regarding Part II with the whole acknowledgement arguement; he never shows a need for her encouragement as you proclaimed, and even with him being friends- even when she was there on the rescue Sasuke arc, he never seemed as if he needed her there at all (however, this is arguable) I won't go into it right now.

Naruto didn't NEED Hinata's encouragement in particular, I'm sure he needed any source of encouragement, not just hers. Besides, he wasn't even looking forward to talk to her that day- he passed her by on his way to the training grounds. And of course the person he made that promise to, assuring that he can keep that promise of beating his opponent would have that effect. And no one had ever said that to him thus far, it's going to be special especially once again- coming from the person he wants to make happy by going through with his promise. It would've been the same if it were Sakura. 

And your views of love and mines are different, I do agree on most of it. I won't elaborate on love, because it's all of opinion and personal experience in the end.

Sorry if I didn't get my point across, I'm sleepy


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 22, 2009)

ironblade_x1 said:


> And the NaruSaku interactions everyone's been pointing at for Part 2 haven't been as strong as people seem to be explaining. 20 panels hardly makes a relationship, no matter how hard the anime's been nudging NaruSaku/KibaHina.



LOLWUT? NaruSaku has plenty of substance, it's just not satisfactorily romantic and based on undefinable feelings.



> NaruSaku in part 2: A few select scenes projected to incredible size for the sake of shipping fans.
> NaruHina in part 2:



One consisted of progressive development.



> This hasn't been a very romance-oriented manga. It's just as easy to pass off NaruSaku as a sibling love as it is to make an argument for NaruSasu.



How can you compare something mutual, exceedingly developed, regarding the feelings of the entire team in arguing NaruHina against NaruSaku ...?


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## tyheru (Mar 22, 2009)

> yes and because it doesn't have to work the same way it's okay for hinata's confession to be the only thing the pairing needs to get the ball rolling despite the lack of interaction, despite the lack of interest on naruto's part. it's had it's missed opportunities too but those are treated as a buffer of sorts that keeps the pair from crumbling in on itself and ultimately lead to this moment and all the wonderful things that are sure to follow cause naruto clearly has no other attachments.
> 
> sorry but even as a naruhina fan and anti-narusaku i'm not buying it.



Well Kageneko, I think you're misunderstanding what a lot of people are saying. But this post of mine explains a lot of what you're saying:



> Oh don't get me wrong. The point with my post wasn't to say that because of that reason NaruHina is canon, or should become canon. I didn't say anything about Hinata deserving Naruto because of this. I was simply explaining why a lot of people liked NaruHina from the start. Whatever reason Naruto and Hinata may or may not get together has nothing to do with what I said. There are plenty of other reasons why Naruto Hinata is a good idea, and plenty of other reasons why Naruto and Sakura should get together. All I'm saying is that what makes NaruHina attractive to me is that Hinata was that girl from the start. When Sakura wouldn't believe that Naruto was the one who saved her from Gaara, Hinata had every faith in Naruto. For most guys, this reason alone is a reason to consider Hinata as a potential love interest. It's like how a lot of guys when they are young pine over some beautiful girl that doesn't give them the time of day, when there's an equally or more beautiful girl who already loved them from the start. When a guy finds out about this, no matter what the circumstances, the girl who liked him from the start will gain a lot of points with him.
> 
> *Also, I don't understand where people get this idea that Hinata's confession is too late, or that we expect NaruHina to happen just like that. First off, from the looks of it, the manga is FAR from over. We got a lot of things to cover before the manga finishes. I'm guessing another 200 chapters at least. Secondly, the confession was as good as time as any. Whether it happened a hundred episode ago or just now, a confession is a confession. In real life, people don't usually fall in love and get married to their best friend anyways. It's a sweet idea and when it happens it's very romantic, but most of the time best friends just remain best friends. And Kishimoto has done very little to develop the romantic relationship between Naruto and Sakura, he hasn't done much more with that than with Hinata. So really, it could go either way.
> 
> ...



Again, NO ONE is saying the confessing at 437 is going to make NaruHina canon, or disprove NaruSaku. And again, I don't understand this idea that the NaruHina confession is too late. Like I said, the manga is far from over, I predict another 200 chapters at least. So that's plenty of time to improve their bonds if Kishi decided too. Likewise, even though there's little romantic foreshadowing for NaruSaku now, Kishimoto can change all of that in the future. But anyways, Hinata's confession was a good time as any, even better than most time. I mean they're still sixteen, meaning they're pretty young, meaning they have plenty of times for new bonds in their lives.


----------



## Rasengan2theface (Mar 22, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> LOLWUT? NaruSaku has plenty of substance, it's just not satisfactorily romantic and based on undefinable feelings.


NaruSaku has some substance, yes, but even as a NaruSaku fan, you'd have to admit that, for the most part, it's pretty flimsy and really circumstantial



> One consisted of progressive development.



if you're referring to the Yamato scene, which I believe you are, you have to consider two factors

1) Yamato had never interacted with anyone outside of Team Kakashi at this point and time, that we know of, so he'd never have met any other potential love interests

2) Although he doesn't finish his sentence, Yamato could have said one of two things, "Love" or "Care For"

If it's the first, the I guess you could call it "progressive" but if it's the second, which I tend to lean towards because it seems more believeable considering the amount of time Yamato has actually spent with the team, it just states the truth, because it is pretty clear that Sakura does care for Naruto, but that form of caring can be symbolized as purely a siblingesque deal. In which there's no real progression. But you can't consider it PROGRESSIVE if you leave it to speculation, because it's left totally up to interpretation, which means only one person knows the right answer. 



> How can you compare something mutual, exceedingly developed, regarding the feelings of the entire team in arguing NaruHina against NaruSaku ...?



Just as easily as you can argue NaruSaku against NaruHina, which if you compare the quality of proof vs quantity of face time for each, NaruHina actually comes out on top. But the end of the current arc will either negate or confirm all the possible counters to my arguement, so let's wait until Naruto finishes this Arc and we see where Kishi takes it.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 22, 2009)

Rasengan2theface said:


> NaruSaku has some substance, yes, but even as a NaruSaku fan, you'd have to admit that, for the most part, it's pretty flimsy and really circumstantial



NaruSaku fan WHO?


> if you're referring to the Yamato scene, which I believe you are, you have to consider two factors



Er...no. Amazing how one sentence is enough for jumping to conclusions.



> it is pretty clear that Sakura does care for Naruto, but that form of caring can be symbolized as purely a siblingesque deal. In which there's no real progression. But you can't consider it PROGRESSIVE if you leave it to speculation, because it's left totally up to interpretation, which means only one person knows the right answer.



Considering it non-romantic is just as much speculation then. That makes NaruHina better cos...?



> Just as easily as you can argue NaruSaku against NaruHina, which if you compare the quality of proof vs quantity of face time for each, NaruHina actually comes out on top.



You got to be kidding. One-sided romance is not mutual development.



> But the end of the current arc will either negate or confirm all the possible counters to my arguement, *so let's wait* until Naruto finishes this Arc and we see where Kishi takes it.



That would be better.


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## Andre (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm just going to say a few words. NaruHina fans... the side character girl having a crush on the main character but the main character likes someone else is not original and every experienced Manga/Fantasy reader knows the one truth that always fails to be acknowledged.

*THE SIDE CHARACTER NEVER EVER EVER WINS!!*

and you know what's funny? When then the main male character and the main female character gets together for the millionth time, *IT'S THE LEAST EXPECTED PAIRING OF THEM ALL!*


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## kubik (Mar 22, 2009)

Just like saying 'I lub u!' by shy girl is a death sentence... oh wait!
gb2ed or whatever



> When then the main male character and the main female character gets together for the millionth time, IT'S THE LEAST EXPECTED PAIRING OF THEM ALL!


I like sasusaku too... well not that much as I like nh but whatever...


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 22, 2009)

timoteyo7 said:


> I'm just going to say a few words. NaruHina fans... the side character girl having a crush on the main character but the main character likes someone else is not original and every experienced Manga/Fantasy reader knows the one truth that always fails to be acknowledged.
> 
> *THE SIDE CHARACTER NEVER EVER EVER WINS!!*
> 
> and you know what's funny? When then the main male character and the main female character gets together for the millionth time, *IT'S THE LEAST EXPECTED PAIRING OF THEM ALL!*



In a basic sense i understand what your saying, but even so, it pisses me off about how you attempt to strip down the characters to mere designations in order to prove your point, makes the argument sound really stupid and frankly very condescending.

What should be looked at are the situations in the series and the characters themselves. The archetype that you described is hardly worth much and can be disproved in any number of ways, in many other series.


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## Andre (Mar 22, 2009)

kubik said:


> Just like saying 'I lub u!' by shy girl is a death sentence... oh wait!
> gb2ed or whatever



lol, I heard of that cliche but I never actually seen that before.


> I like sasusaku too... well not that much as I like nh but whatever...



Actually I was implying NaruSaku but then again SS is actually the least expected pairing, but theres a difference between knowing what's going to happen and being plain stupid. I don't even know why SasuSaku is even debatable anymore.


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## kubik (Mar 22, 2009)

> Actually I was implying NaruSaku


NO WAI!
:?!



> but then again SS is actually the least expected pairing, but theres a difference between knowing what's going to happen and being plain stupid. I don't even know why SasuSaku is even debatable anymore.


Thats not what you said! You said:


> main male character and the main female character gets together



Sasuke is main Sakura is main, Sasusaku is canon. There is no way around it now my good man. And adding stuff like:


> I don't even know why SasuSaku is even debatable anymore.


Just makes me lulz harder  at that FAILED logic.

Peace.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 22, 2009)

timoteyo7 said:


> Inuhanyou- Oooh I'm sorry if I pissed you off, but a word of advice, stay calm because I love to mess with people who takes the net too seriously.



The words are hard to translate over the internet, my tone was intended to come out like "i am annoyed by".

All i'm sayin is, relegating the characters to main character main female character, and side character designations in order to somehow prove that a pairing would work isnt an effective way to debate your point, the characters themselves and situations presented would make a far more effective argument


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## gangcro (Mar 22, 2009)

What Inu is saying holds truth, but due to NS being the generic shonen dense guy/fiery heroine pairing that almost always happens, for those that are saying that NS is impossible, just by the cliche of the gender, gives the pairing enough validity, plus its buttloads of screentime in contrast to the other two..

Than again, i fail to see how Hinata or Sakura confessing their 'trulubz' to their clearly not interested crushes lowers the chances of NS, but that could just be me.


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## Andre (Mar 22, 2009)

Pfft whatever Inu, I read many manga and fantasy books with characters that aren't as unrealistic, predictable, and cliche as Naruto's characters. In almost every single one, the potential couple with the most panel time and attention. Wins. No if, ands, or buts about it. No long essay full of fail and irony will ever make an experienced or non~stupid reader think otherwise. Sure there are a few exceptions but Naruto's cliched and predictable ass is not going to be one of them.


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## kubik (Mar 22, 2009)

> Sasuke is a main character but so is Naruto. So does that mean they both are canon? No, Sasuke chose his side, and in terms of fantasy evil never wins in the end. So I guess I should rephrase that last post of mine and put "good" in front of main male and main female character.


But that is not what you said, you said:


> main male character and the main female character gets together


Sasuke is main Sakura is main, Sasusaku is canon. There is no way around it now my good man.

Or maybe you will admit that what you posted was bullshit to begin with?

You realise that you got owned by your own logic right? There is no way around it, you either accept SasuSaku and NaruSaku as both being canon [by your logic] or not thus your logic fails.

oh and btw


> No, Sasuke chose his side, and in terms of fantasy evil never wins in the end.


Wut? Evil? oh my, your knowledge about Narutos characters sure is poor. Sasuke is gray at least. IMO he IS good, but thats just my opinion.
and
No. You can never say that Sasuke rejected Sakura, you can say that he chose his revenge [however it was more like protecting his bond with naruto reread chapters when Itachi returns to Konoha] over her but he never flat out rejected her love. 'Thank you' could mean 1000+ things.

Me defending SasuSaku.... whats next? Hyuugacest?


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 22, 2009)

> Again, NO ONE is saying the confessing at 437 is going to make NaruHina canon, or disprove NaruSaku. And again, I don't understand this idea that the NaruHina confession is too late. Like I said, the manga is far from over, I predict another 200 chapters at least. So that's plenty of time to improve their bonds if Kishi decided too. Likewise, even though there's little romantic foreshadowing for NaruSaku now, Kishimoto can change all of that in the future. But anyways, Hinata's confession was a good time as any, even better than most time. I mean they're still sixteen, meaning they're pretty young, meaning they have plenty of times for new bonds in their lives.


 
Agreeing with most of this. Though regarding the last sentence, I highly doubt new people are going to be introduced for the sake of romantic bonds. I guess I believe it is more likely they'll "hook up", if any do, within their select group of the younger generation, which has already been introduced.


*Spoiler*: _manga_ 




Hinata's confession does not guarantee canon. But why are people denying the importance of it? It is there, it occured, and something will happen with it, good or not.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 22, 2009)

kubik said:


> No. You can never say that Sasuke rejected Sakura, you can say that he chose his revenge [however it was more like protecting his bond with naruto reread chapters when Itachi returns to Konoha] over her but he never flat out rejected her love. 'Thank you' could mean 1000+ things.



Whoever says Sasuke didn't reject Sakura, when he spent the entirety of Part 1 doing so, is the one who needs to do some reevaluation. Saying I CAN'T BE WITH YOU GUYS and remembering another person while a girl screams truluvs is not a romantic predisposition. They were friends, and therefore thanking her draws such a conclusion since otherwise has never been suggested.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 22, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Whoever says Sasuke didn't reject Sakura, when he spent the entirety of Part 1 doing so, is the one who needs to do some reevaluation. Saying I CAN'T BE WITH YOU GUYS and remembering another person while a girl screams truluvs is not a romantic predisposition. They were friends, and therefore thanking her draws such a conclusion since otherwise has never been suggested.



The main thing being that Sasuke had never thought about Sakura in a way that would have allowed for romantic implications in the first place. As in part 1, all we ever saw from her on Sasuke's side was with another character in tow, he was never shown thinking about her implicitly, in passing or otherwise, or anything else that would indicate he aquired some kind of hidden feeling that he just never showed, from what we've seen, an astute observation would be that he never had those kinds of feelings in the first place, thus making the pairing onesided.


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## kubik (Mar 22, 2009)

Ouch! That hurted you know 
So much for being SasuSaku defender 

My mistake I didnt take all of part 1 in consideration :/


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 22, 2009)

^

As a die-hard hater of SS all I can say in its defence is 'anything can happen' ..since I never saw anything promising in Sasuke's nature or feelings towards her on a romantic level. He said he'd "never forgive even her" if she got in the way of his revenge and canon-wise she has always been the team member able to do the least in affecting that mindset.


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## gabzilla (Mar 22, 2009)

timoteyo7 said:


> *THE SIDE CHARACTER NEVER EVER EVER WINS!!*



**

Tell that to Dragon Ball. You know, the _King_ of Shounen.


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## ironblade_x1 (Mar 22, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> **
> 
> Tell that to Dragon Ball. You know, the _King_ of Shounen.



It should've been GokuxBulma


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## Farih (Mar 22, 2009)

timoteyo7 said:


> I'm just going to say a few words. NaruHina fans... the side character girl having a crush on the main character but the main character likes someone else is not original and every experienced Manga/Fantasy reader knows the one truth that always fails to be acknowledged.
> 
> *THE SIDE CHARACTER NEVER EVER EVER WINS!!*
> 
> and you know what's funny? When then the main male character and the main female character gets together for the millionth time, *IT'S THE LEAST EXPECTED PAIRING OF THEM ALL!*



I have to agree with Inu on this; you're downplaying NaruSaku like it's a default just because it's main girl x main guy.  There have been plenty of shounens where the main guy does not get with the main girl, i.e. Yu-Yu Hakusho (YuusukexKeiko rather than YuusukexBotan). 

That, and I have never heard a single NS fan say that NaruSaku should happen because they're the hero and heroine, especially considering Sakura isn't as much a heroine as she as a lead female (who gets slightly above average screen time) since Kishi doesn't do much with females but I digress...  

What fans like myself enjoy about NaruSaku is the mutual relationship that Kishi's been focusing on.  It stems from a lot of little things like Naruto's determination to save her in the Gaara fight, Sakura willing to throw her Chuunin Exams for Naruto's dream, Sakura's "What is this feeling?", the Promise of a Lifetime which, in the very least, showed that Naruto's feelings for Sakura were far more than a crush if he was mature enough to think of her happiness above his own.  And that's all part 1 stuff.

Whereas with NaruHina, yes Hinata's been in love with him.  To be honest, Main Guy x Shy Side Character is not nearly as uncommon as you implied.  It's actually a pretty cliched couple.  My problem isn't with the couple itself since Hinata actually gets something from Naruto, like the desire to become stronger.  My problem is it becoming canon due to the lack of screen time it gets.  And yeah, I know shounen couples don't need a ton of development, but the last time Kishi had a significant moment between the two was in ch. 98 where they had a decent conversation.  Then...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's confession over 300 chapters later.  If Kishi tries to develop them now, no matter how much screen time it gets, I can't think of it as anything more than a rushed couple.  He should've given it a little more spotlight in part 2 for it to seem believable to me, but that's just my opinion and a NaruHina fan probably disagrees.


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## Kanai (Mar 22, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> ^
> 
> The thing with that is
> 
> ...



I agree with you on so many levels. If every other NaruSaku and NaruHina fan were like this, I'd probably be a good fan of NaruHina as well. 

Like I've mentioned before, if NaruHina or NaruSaku were to happen, I would accept it. 

What I'm not pleased about is about Kishi. 
First, excluding all the NaruHina-implied fillers like the Sailor Hinata, Hinata vs the Bugs, and Hinata vs Guren parts, there hasn't been any real development in the actual plot. This makes it harder for Naruto, because he has hardly had any experience with Hinata except for the fact that he knows she's shy and nice. That's all. If it's going to end as NaruHina, I'd like it if there were at least a LITTLE bit more development between them before her 
*Spoiler*: __ 



confession


. 

So, if Naruto begins to notice Hinata more, what about Sakura? Are all her actions just "friendliness"? Are you still thinking that she still likes Sasuke? 

*Spoiler*: __ 



People also point out that the confession is the beginning to much more character development.





*Spoiler*: __ 



So, by character development, you mean dragging Hinata along to Naruto's search for Sasuke? The "epic" battle between the two is probably going to come soon, considering how Sasuke is already planning to kill the elders. I don't see how that leaves space for character development, unless you're indicating that Kishi will make about a couple hundred more chapters for the NaruHina development after the "Sasuke business." 

Besides, how will Sakura feel if she really admits that she does like Naruto? Is she going to go, "Oh Hinata, I guess my love for Naruto is just some friendliness! You should go with him instead!" That seems way too OOC, considering her more extroverted personality. 

On to NaruSaku. If Naruto still goes for Sakura, I think he'll feel guilty. Hinata just confessed to him, but it's not like he can actually say "YES!" 
Because I think getting back Sasuke affects Team 7 the most. I don't think suddenly dragging Hinata for development will be good,either. 

It'll also break Hinata's heart, like I mentioned earlier. In a way, Naruto was part of Hinata's trigger to become stronger, better, and to believe in herself more. She would probably accept Naruto loving Sakura, but it would, in a way, somewhat ruin her character. 




My conclusion is still the same: I think, it should remain a shounen story. No NaruHina. No NaruSaku. No pairings. As much as I would like to see Naruto and Sakura together, I think this would be the best choice. People would just take the ending of the story, and fantasize the sequel of how Naruto and Hinata/Naruto and Sakura get together. XD


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 22, 2009)

^ The thing with that is


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Kishimoto has already established a trigger for things to move forward, a "cause" if you will..now if there's no effect, it'll feel lopsided because if that was the case, Kishimoto could have just made a one piece type story with no romantic attachments, if he was not intending to close them out in a way that justified their creation, excluding Sakura's which was development for her own character.

I agree with you on the vast majority of points you mentioned, however Naruto can't help who he loves, if he can't pursue something with Hinata, that is just how it is, the same thing would be true for any other character.  

Although there's a difference from being logical and being slapped on as you know   And beyond that...if naruto did reject her, it would not necessarily "break" her only reason for existing, but perhaps do as it did with Sakura, and allow her to move on with her life without being binded to Naruto's influence and have her grow in her own right.


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## gabzilla (Mar 22, 2009)

ironblade_x1 said:


> It should've been GokuxBulma



Yuck



farihstar said:


> That, *and I have never heard a single NS fan say that NaruSaku should happen because they're the hero and heroine*, especially considering Sakura isn't as much a heroine as she as a lead female (who gets slightly above average screen time) since Kishi doesn't do much with females but I digress...


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 22, 2009)

gabzilla said:


>



You coulden't really call em fans, if that's all the reason they have for the pairing to come to pass.


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## gabzilla (Mar 22, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> You coulden't really call em fans, if that's all the reason they have for the pairing to come to pass.



I've lost count of the number of times I've heard the "one of the reasons NS is going to be canon is because they are main characters"

Heck, there is one in the previous page!


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## Farih (Mar 22, 2009)

gabzilla said:


>



Well, like Inu said, I don't consider them fans then.  Like, go in the NS FC and I bet you won't see anyone who legitimately ships them say that they should be together solely for the fact that they're the Main Guy x Main Girl.  That's never the only reason, and i'm pretty sure most don't consider it a reason at all.  

And if you're talking about the guy on the previous page, well, he was banned for a reason, wasn't he?


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## gabzilla (Mar 22, 2009)

farihstar said:


> Well, like Inu said, I don't consider them fans then.  Like, go in the NS FC and I bet you won't see anyone who legitimately ships them say that they should be together solely for the fact that they're the Main Guy x Main Girl.  That's never the only reason, and i'm pretty sure most don't consider it a reason at all.
> 
> And if you're talking about the guy on the previous page, well, he was banned for a reason, wasn't he?



You misunderstand me. I don't believe there are many fans that ship for that reason only.

I was merely amused at your comment because I've heard people say one of the reason NS is going to be canon is because main characters always pair up. ^_^


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## Tyrannos (Mar 22, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with people believing in the *Lead Male x Lead Female* relationship in mangas and anime.  Frankly, it's no different than people using the Goku x Chichi argument in justifying NaruHina.   Everyone is welcome to voice their opinions.

Sure, there is no guarantee that the Lead Male x Lead Female relationship will happen, but judging from the hundreds of manga out there, it's a very safe bet.  


With NaruSaku, people keep saying there is no progress, Naruto has given up, the confessions, and that the Lead Male x Lead Female relationship is invalid.  But yet, in a good majority of stories that use this pairing model, the pairings are never fully confirmed until the end.  The only exceptions are, if they were introduced as husband and wife or boyfriend-girlfriend at the beginning.   

And laugh as you may, but the way Kishimoto is handling the slow buildup, surely Naruto and Sakura's relationship is an encouraging sign that he is indeed using this model.  He started off that Naruto has eyes for this girl, they have their ups and downs, their bond grows, and then he tosses moments where Sakura has to choose between Naruto and Sasuke.   And people say there is nothing happening?  

With the manga estimated in being 80 remaining chapters (given he plans on ending the manga at 520 Chapters like Dragonball), given LMxLF model, the final pairings should be confirmed in the last 10 to 30 Chapters.


Now as for the Goku x Chichi argument, people forget that Chichi was introduced as Goku's wife as a way to introduce Gohan later on in the Dragonball storyline. Because after Gohan is born, she became the kyoiku mama and a comedic tool while Goku was off fighting.      

However, Hinata isn't the same type of character, even if she was introduced 30 chapters later.  She is more in line of those standard shy girls that pretty much stays in the background, liking the Lead Male.  For example:  Tessa in Full Metal Panic, the sisters in Asu no Yoichi, and Miu in Linebarrels of Iron.   They very well may have a confessional moment, but doesn't mean because of that the pairing is locked in stone.   Most of the time, they are happy they finally let it out, even if the Lead Male doesn't respond.

Frankly, given what I said, I still say Naruto x Sakura with this argument alone has pretty solid ground to stand on, while Naruto x Hinata does not.  If you don't believe me, then please feel free to state your case.


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## Damaris (Mar 23, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> There is nothing wrong with people believing in the *Lead Male x Lead Female* relationship in mangas and anime.  Frankly, it's no different than people using the Goku x Chichi argument in justifying NaruHina.   Everyone is welcome to voice their opinions.
> 
> Sure, there is no guarantee that the Lead Male x Lead Female relationship will happen, but judging from the hundreds of manga out there, it's a very safe bet.
> 
> ...



Now I can't speak for the others, since of your examples I've only see FMP, but Tessa's feelings for Sousuke were never as elaborate or given as much attention as Hinata's for Naruto were. She liked him, but he wasn't the very focus of her development like Naruto is for Hinata.

And I still want to know. If NaruSaku is what Kishi intended, why did Hinata ever have a crush on Naruto on the first place? Why would he have her be the first person to acknowledge him, the first person to admire and look up to him? The first person to tell him straight up that she loves him more than her own life? I'm sure Kishi could have found a way to write the manga without her feelings for Naruto. So why didn't he?


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 23, 2009)

Marina Ismail said:


> Now I can't speak for the others, since of your examples I've only see FMP, but Tessa's feelings for Sousuke were never as elaborate or given as much attention as Hinata's for Naruto were. She liked him, but he wasn't the very focus of her development like Naruto is for Hinata.



Tessa's feelings were pretty pronounced.   In fact, in "A Dancing Very Merry Christmas", she confessed to Souske and got dissed when he said he liked Chidori.   And before then, her affection was so blantent that even the crew realized.  Just like how Sakura, Kiba, and the others saw Hinata's affection for Naruto.   

And Souske was very much Tessa's development, because it was her chasing him that led her to have a taste of a normal life during downtime.  Which she was very thankful for.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



Which is like Hinata being thankful for Naruto, in freeing her.






Marina Ismail said:


> And I still want to know. If NaruSaku is what Kishi intended, why did Hinata ever have a crush on Naruto on the first place? Why would he have her be the first person to acknowledge him, the first person to admire and look up to him?
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Why does multiple girls have crushes of guys in anime and in manga?  They just do.   Some for dramatic effect, some for comedy, and some just to mess with your mind.

Now you point out Hinata was the first person to acknowledge him, but Naruto doesn't know that.  While he was being tortured, she was off in the shadows watching him suffer.  But the one who saved him and whom Naruto acknowledged first was Iruka.


*Spoiler*: __ 



So she confessed to Naruto, it doesn't mean he's going to be with her because of that.

"Kishi could've worked around it" "Why didn't he?", well why did he have Naruto fall in love with Sakura and wanted to be with her?   It keeps things interesting if you got a love triangle involved.  What else was he going to do with Hinata?


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Now as for the Goku x Chichi argument, people forget that Chichi was introduced as Goku's wife as a way to introduce Gohan later on in the Dragonball storyline. Because after Gohan is born, she became the kyoiku mama and a comedic tool while Goku was off fighting.



Chichi was introduced in _Dragonball_ as a young girl.  



> However, Hinata isn't the same type of character, even if she was introduced 30 chapters later.  She is more in line of those standard shy girls that pretty much stays in the background, liking the Lead Male.  For example:  Tessa in Full Metal Panic, the sisters in Asu no Yoichi, and Miu in Linebarrels of Iron.   They very well may have a confessional moment, but doesn't mean because of that the pairing is locked in stone.   Most of the time, they are happy they finally let it out, even if the Lead Male doesn't respond.



Hinata never gets a scene where she acknowledges another females interest in the male lead.  Take Tamao from _Shaman King_, her crush is never elaborated on, and is brought up and crushed by Anna on the same page.  Or Caska from _Berserk_, she sees Princess Charlotte and Griffith at that ball.
In fact, the closest scene we get to this in _Naruto _is the hospital scene where Naruto leaves after watching Sakura hug Sasuke.


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## Damaris (Mar 23, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Why does multiple girls have crushes of guys in anime and in manga?  They just do.   Some for dramatic effect, some for comedy, and some just to mess with your mind.
> 
> Now you point out Hinata was the first person to acknowledge him, but Naruto doesn't know that.  While he was being tortured, she was off in the shadows watching him suffer.  But the one who saved him and whom Naruto acknowledged first was Iruka.
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Of course Naruto didn't know that before she told him, but he does now. Do you honestly believe that that sort of revelation is going to have no effect on him whatsoever? As for the off in the shadows bit--that's the whole point of this confession. She's always been watching him, even as he saved her, but now it's her turn to defend him and let him know how she feels.

No one has said that just because she confessed he has to be with her. But it does open up a possibility for him that he never thought of before; being with Hinata, whose loved him since the very beginning.

Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura just aren't comparable with Hinata's romantic feelings for Naruto. Naruto does not think of Sakura alone. She is not the sole driving force for his motivation to get better. He uses "dates" with her to cover up his angst over Sasuke, even though he wasn't even thinking of her before she showed up and almost caught him moping. You would think that Naruto, who is so loud and impulsive and says what he feels--you would think that if he still loved Sakura romantically, if he wanted to be with her, he would have said something. She hasn't mentioned Sasuke at all in part 2, after all. Why should he think she's still in love with him? They have all this time together--why doesn't he mention his feelings for her?


----------



## ironblade_x1 (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm not a NaruHina, NaruSaku, or NaruSasu fan, for those asking. 

If we're using the Lead MalexLead Female philosophy here, and Dragonball as a sample template, it couldn't be more wrong. Chichi, was she was introduced, was engaged to Goku in a single conversation upon their initial meeting (to which Goku acquiesed due to his naivety, but whatever). If there was a lead female at all in Dragonball, it was Bulma.

Calling Sakura the lead female is a stretch. We're used to thinking of her as a main character by virtue of being a team 7 member, when in reality her overall plot significance is almost nonexistant. Kishi admitted himself when he first created her; he created her merely for the intrigue of having another personality. 

What we've noticed in Naruto/Sakura's relationship as we progressed through the early arcs of part 2, if anything, was an interesting increase in interest from Sakura and a decrease from Naruto (or a much less expressive Naruto), but Sakura didn't have much to start off from. 

I think what Kishi tried to establish when Saku/Naru first met in part 2 was that Sakura had during the timeskip shed Sakura's initial view of Naruto (a moron, in short) by having the cute little scene where Sakura asks Naruto on his opinion of her looks, because his opinion _does_ matter. But romance wasn't supposed to be implied; having Sakura fall in love with Naruto after a 2 year absence seems terrible to me.

For me Kishi had this scene (comparing height, looks, etc.) to set the base for their relationship for the rest of part 2, not necessarily something to build off of. Their initial conversation as it was was fairly intimate considering their time apart; looking at the rest of their conversations from this lens takes away the romantic edge that NaruSaku fans see and brings about a more loving relationship that lacks real substance. I can't call it a sibling thing, since there's still a slight barrier, but the intimancy level is still very close, indicative of their relationship as teammates.

When you look at the "Sakura feeding Naruto" scene, to me it wouldn't be outlandish to suggest that Ino would do the same for both Shikamaru and Chouji, or that Tenten would do the same for Lee or Neji (I'm not being sexist here). When we see the concern she shows for him, it isn't hard to see Hinata doing the same for Kiba, or hell, even Rin doing the same for Obito. It's the relationship that's formed by necessity and time.

That being said, I still don't really believe in NaruHina. It's still one-sided, and for me that isn't a justification, no matter how strong that one side is (this whole manga's been one-sided love).


----------



## hmph (Mar 23, 2009)

The simple thing with NaruSaku is that if it happened tomorrow it wouldn't be an asspull. People who have differing interpretations of scenes would have to go back and change their interpretation, yes, but from a story perspective it wouldn't be out of no where. The same can't be said for NaruHina or SasuSaku. For that reason alone, it's unfair to say the pairings have an equal chance of happening - they may all have chance, but they not equal.


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 23, 2009)

hmph said:


> The simple thing with NaruSaku is that if it happened tomorrow it wouldn't be an asspull. People who have differing interpretations of scenes would have to go back and change their interpretation, yes, but from a story perspective it wouldn't be out of no where. The same can't be said for NaruHina or SasuSaku. For that reason alone, it's unfair to say the pairings have an equal chance of happening - they may all have chance, but they not equal.



Actually, it would still be sudden and underdone. Where the series is now, Sakura has never stopped loving Sasuke. In real life, yes, you could argue that she would have dropped her feelings over three years, but this is fiction. Her feelings would not have been brought up so close to the end of part 1 if they were only going to vanish over the timeskip. If they were going to vanish at all, it would be addressed concretely. Not in a cut-off line from a character who barely knows her.

Where the series stands now, NaruHina, SasuSaku, _and_ NaruSaku are all onesided.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 23, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Actually, it would still be sudden and underdone. Where the series is now, Sakura has never stopped loving Sasuke. In real life, yes, you could argue that she would have dropped her feelings over three years, but this is fiction. Her feelings would not have been brought up so close to the end of part 1 if they were only going to vanish over the timeskip. If they were going to vanish at all, it would be addressed concretely. Not in a cut-off line from a character who barely knows her.
> 
> Where the series stands now, NaruHina, SasuSaku, _and_ NaruSaku are all onesided.


Dear debating colleague,

Sakura has not quit loving Sasuke as a team mate and a respectable friend, but is most likely confused between the feelings she carries for both Naruto and Sasuke.

Corrected,
Kitsune Naruto



capparye said:


> Apparently, Sakura isn't apart of Kishi's original Idea, Hinata was. Sakura was an add on to add a girl touch to the main characters Naruto and Sasuke. Hinata was Kishi's oringal idea for Naruto's love interest and a regular house wife, but changed mind and made her a ninja.


Dear new member,

Please provide a valid link to where Kishimoto himself makes this statement and not a databook which he has taken credit for.

Searching,
Kitsune Naruto


----------



## Nadini (Mar 23, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Please provide a valid link to where Kishimoto himself makes this statement and not a databook which he has taken credit for.
> 
> Searching,
> Kitsune Naruto



Dear Friend

That's Jizz.

Rereading FC's,
nadini


hey, this is kinda cool


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 23, 2009)

nadini said:


> Dear Friend
> 
> That's Jizz.
> 
> ...


Amusing ally,

I have not noticed that this is actually Jizz. I have to be more careful when replying to nonsense and fanwanking next time. I was merely trying to see if said person was actually able to back up statements that he made up on the spot.

Moderatly amused,
Kitsune Naruto

It is! XD


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 23, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Chichi was introduced in _Dragonball_ as a young girl.



And your point with this, is?  



moonjump05 said:


> Hinata never gets a scene where she acknowledges another females interest in the male lead.  Take Tamao from _Shaman King_, her crush is never elaborated on, and is brought up and crushed by Anna on the same page.  Or Caska from _Berserk_, she sees Princess Charlotte and Griffith at that ball. In fact, the closest scene we get to this in _Naruto _is the hospital scene where Naruto leaves after watching Sakura hug Sasuke.



So?  There is no rule that says that they have to acknowledge another girl's love, to justify their own.



Marina Ismail said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Of course Naruto didn't know that before she told him, but he does now. Do you honestly believe that that sort of revelation is going to have no effect on him whatsoever? As for the off in the shadows bit--that's the whole point of this confession. She's always been watching him, even as he saved her, but now it's her turn to defend him and let him know how she feels.



Well judging how people are screaming, "NaruHina is confirmed", I sure get the impression people are believing that's the case.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



Last night, I read the Japflap scan, which uses Hisshou's translations, and it was more intriguing than the speed translations.  Because, Hinata said her love for Naruto was "selfish" and that she admitted that she never was catching up to him romantically.  Though she protected him nontheless.  

(Which in hindsight, Hinata didn't accomplish bumpkus because Naruto's situation didn't change after she arrived.  The only thing that saved him was his transformation, which her being stabbed, triggered).






Marina Ismail said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> No one has said that just because she confessed he has to be with her. But it does open up a possibility for him that he never thought of before; being with Hinata, whose loved him since the very beginning.



I will admit it opens up a new possibility, but unless some kind of follow up occurs, I'm doubtful.  The main key to this, is Naruto giving up his love for Sakura, whom he always loved.



Marina Ismail said:


> He uses "dates" with her to cover up his angst over Sasuke, even though he wasn't even thinking of her before she showed up and almost caught him moping.



Hate to tell you, but the first Date in Part 2 didn't have anything to do with Sasuke.  



Marina Ismail said:


> Naruto does not think of Sakura alone. She is not the sole driving force for his motivation to get better.



So what if lots of people motivate Naruto?  It doesn't make Sakura any less important to him.



Marina Ismail said:


> You would think that Naruto, who is so loud and impulsive and says what he feels--you would think that if he still loved Sakura romantically, if he wanted to be with her, he would have said something. She hasn't mentioned Sasuke at all in part 2, after all. Why should he think she's still in love with him? They have all this time together--why doesn't he mention his feelings for her?



Have you forgotten Chapter 172?   Where Naruto quietly left Sasuke's hospital room after Sakura hugging him.  To which Tsunade comments that he's more sensitive than he makes himself out to be.

And why he isn't blantently chasing her?  Need I remind you of Chapter 3 in what she said about him?  That's when Naruto stopped actively chasing her, but retained an obvious affection for Sakura.



ironblade_x1 said:


> If we're using the Lead MalexLead Female philosophy here, and Dragonball as a sample template, it couldn't be more wrong. Chichi, was she was introduced, was engaged to Goku in a single conversation upon their initial meeting (to which Goku acquiesed due to his naivety, but whatever). If there was a lead female at all in Dragonball, it was Bulma.



But nobody said that Dragonball was using the Lead Male x Female Lead pairing standard.  



ironblade_x1 said:


> Calling Sakura the lead female is a stretch. We're used to thinking of her as a main character by virtue of being a team 7 member, when in reality her overall plot significance is almost nonexistant. Kishi admitted himself when he first created her; he created her merely for the intrigue of having another personality.



I disagree.

Even if Kishimoto was told originally by his editors to put in a love interest (Sakura) and a rival (Sasuke), doesn't change the fact that they both evolved to be main characters of the story.

Naruto is the title character and thus the lead male.  Sakura being the only female main character, gets the female lead title by default.


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 23, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Dear debating colleague,
> 
> Sakura has not quit loving Sasuke as a team mate and a respectable friend, but is most likely confused between the feelings she carries for both Naruto and Sasuke.
> 
> ...



However, in chapter 181, when Sakura told Sasuke that she loved him, she was talking about romantic love. In my original comment, I was referring specifically to her romantic feelings for Sasuke, which I do not feel that there is justifiable canon evidence to say that she no longer harbors. I do not believe that Kishimoto would have brought them up to the degree that he did with her confession if those romantic feelings were not going to remain present after the timeskip.

My original comment was made to say that all pairings are still onesided. I have yet to see anything that convinces me that Sakura cares for Naruto except for as a teammate and very close, sometimes respectable, friend. I also have yet to see anything that makes me believe that she is confused about her feelings for Naruto compared to her feelings for Sasuke. If you have an example of this confusion, could you please provide it? Otherwise, this is my interpretation, based on how I perceive the events of the manga.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 23, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> However, in chapter 181, when Sakura told Sasuke that she loved him, she was talking about romantic love. In my original comment, I was referring specifically to her romantic feelings for Sasuke, which I do not feel that there is justifiable canon evidence to say that she no longer harbors. I do not believe that Kishimoto would have brought them up to the degree that he did with her confession if those romantic feelings were not going to remain present after the timeskip.
> 
> My original comment was made to say that all pairings are still onesided. I have yet to see anything that convinces me that Sakura cares for Naruto except for as a teammate and very close, sometimes respectable, friend. I also have yet to see anything that makes me believe that she is confused about her feelings for Naruto compared to her feelings for Sasuke. If you have an example of this confusion, could you please provide it? Otherwise, this is my interpretation, based on how I perceive the events of the manga.


Kind poster,

It has come to my attention that you like to use the data book and as such, I am currently using it as well. It was stated in the data book that she is confused. As other excellent posts from Gabzilla have shown, nothing is romantic love until it is stated that way. Of course, it is only to become like this when the character states this herself, in a true and genuine way, such as Hinata did towards Naruto. Therefore, my statement was correct.

Romantically yours,
Kitsune Naruto


----------



## Zeky (Mar 23, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> And your point with this, is?



I think he was referring to the storyline. He met ChiChi as a boy, he made a promise without thinking. Time passed by and out of nowhere he crosses chichi in the martial-arts tourney. There you go, lead male - side female.



> So?  There is no rule that says that they have to acknowledge another girl's love, to justify their own.



I rather say that there are not rules at all. (in a romantic way).



> Well judging how people are screaming, "NaruHina is confirmed", I sure get the impression people are believing that's the case.



 yes... and no. People are screaming, but saying "it's confirmed" it's stupid at this moment. I'm (as a nh fan) screaming at the possibility for them to be together. Things are just not predictable right now, more facts are needed in order for both sides to claim victory.

I've read your previous post, where you said this:



> With the manga estimated in being 80 remaining chapters (given he plans on ending the manga at 520 Chapters like Dragonball), given LMxLF model, *the final pairings should be confirmed in the last 10 to 30 Chapters.*



*Bolded:* I agree, it's a possibilty, but not 100% sure though.

The rest... well... even though he plans to do that.. there's no guarantee he will. You don't know if things are going to turn up as he wants to, so that point is just a doubt.

Also i've read comments like "there are at least 80 chapter, so there's no time for them to develop". Well.. sorry but that's bullshit.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



As far as i know (from reading the pages) Hinata claims her action as selfish and not her love as stated here. Saying that "she never was catching up to him romantically" doesn't make sense to me. She clearly says "I was always chasing you, trying to overtake you... I just wanted to walk with you", dont know you but that sounds like she wanted to be with him romatically.
Even though you do have a point here: "the only thing that saved him was his transformation..." I'll have to disagree. I accept that Hinata was not the only or main reason, (as many stated because there's Kakashi, ero-sennin, the frogs, Konoha, etc) but it is clear that the chain of events that Hinata provoked in Naruto were the cause of his transformation. Im sure that Naruto was caught into Pein's mind trick and that he was almost hopeless before Hinata jumped in. 

As you said, Hinata was the trigger for his transformation so if you state that the transformation saved him.. then.. Hinata saved him 






> I will admit it opens up a new possibility, but unless some kind of follow up occurs, I'm doubtful.  The main key to this, is Naruto giving up his love for Sakura, whom he always loved.



I don't fully agree on that part. I would say that in order to be with Hinata, Naruto must think again (and seriously) about his feelings for Sakura and take a decision.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Although I still believe he was never so in love as NS says he was


 



> So what if lots of people motivate Naruto?  It doesn't make Sakura any less important to him.



I agree.




> Have you forgotten Chapter 172?   Where Naruto quietly left Sasuke's hospital room after Sakura hugging him.  To which Tsunade comments that he's more sensitive than he makes himself out to be.
> 
> And why he isn't blantently chasing her?  Need I remind you of Chapter 3 in what she said about him?  That's when Naruto stopped actively chasing her, but retained an obvious affection for Sakura.



I do remember that. But you also need to remember that he acknowledges Sakura's love for Sasuke. Even though he left quietly he seemed to understood Sakuras feelings. I don't think he was jealous at all.


----------



## tyheru (Mar 23, 2009)

One question to NaruSaku fans. For all the complaints about NaruHina being to rushed (which I don't think it is) and Naruto being forced to fall in love with Naruto (which I don't think will be the case), how do you feel about Sakura going with Naruto? Don't you feel like she's "settling" for Naruto? That she decided Sasuke is too evil/dead/whatever so she might as well go with Naruto? I mean last time Naruto asked Sakura to grab a bite with him, her reaction was less than sweet. It was as if she decided to finally give him and go eat with him, as long as he pays. Not exactly romantic in my opinion, to act like a date with naruto is a pity date.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 23, 2009)

tyheru said:


> One question to NaruSaku fans. For all the complaints about NaruHina being to rushed (which I don't think it is) and Naruto being forced to fall in love with Naruto (which I don't think will be the case), how do you feel about Sakura going with Naruto? Don't you feel like she's "settling" for Naruto? That she decided Sasuke is too evil/dead/whatever so she might as well go with Naruto? I mean last time Naruto asked Sakura to grab a bite with him, her reaction was less than sweet. It was as if she decided to finally give him and go eat with him, as long as he pays. Not exactly romantic in my opinion, to act like a date with naruto is a pity date.


Dear questioner,

This love has had development instead of mindless fangirling from one direction.

That will be all,
Kitsune Naruto

I fucking love typing like this x3


----------



## tyheru (Mar 23, 2009)

> With the manga estimated in being 80 remaining chapters (given he plans on ending the manga at 520 Chapters like Dragonball), given LMxLF model, the final pairings should be confirmed in the last 10 to 30 Chapters.



Not true, Kishimoto said that Naruto was going to be a lot bigger than dragonball z. If I had to make a guess I say at least another 150 to 200 chapters.


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 23, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Kind poster,
> 
> It has come to my attention that you like to use the data book and as such, I am currently using it as well. It was stated in the data book that she is confused. As other excellent posts from Gabzilla have shown, nothing is romantic love until it is stated that way. Of course, it is only to become like this when the character states this herself, in a true and genuine way, such as Hinata did towards Naruto. Therefore, my statement was correct.
> 
> ...



Huh? I've never seen the data book, and if anything in my post sounded like something from it, the resemblance was purely coincidental.

I thank you for the evidence though, and for clearing up what you were saying in your previous post about Sakura's feelings being confused. I still do have a question though: When you said (in your previous post) that she has not quit loving Sasuke as a teammate and respectable friend, was that in the data book as well? I have already explained why I believe that she still loves him romantically, but are you saying that the data book said that she loved him as a teammate and respectable friend only, or is that your personal interpretation of the manga? Or are you saying that the data book was intentionally vague and only clarified that she at least cared for him as a teammate and respectable friend, but could still have feelings for him that are something more?

Do you have a link to the page of the data book that you are referring to? I think that that would probably help me to understand this better. At the moment I think I'm just confusing myself...


----------



## tyheru (Mar 23, 2009)

> Dear questioner,
> 
> This love has had development instead of mindless fangirling from one direction.
> 
> ...



Well that's where NaruHina and NaruSaku fans disagree. You guys see loads of undisputed development, we don't. In the end we can argue about this all day but we'll get no where. So we'll just have to wait and see. Personally I think NaruSaku have about as much development as Harry/Hermione. We all know how that turned out.

Anyways, you didn't answer my question. Don't you feel that with the way things are potrayed in the manga, if Sakura chooses Naruto, that she'll be "settling" for him?


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 23, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Huh? I've never seen the data book, and if anything in my post sounded like something from it, the resemblance was purely coincidental.
> 
> I thank you for the evidence though, and for clearing up what you were saying in your previous post about Sakura's feelings being confused. I still do have a question though: When you said (in your previous post) that she has not quit loving Sasuke as a teammate and respectable friend, was that in the data book as well? I have already explained why I believe that she still loves him romantically, but are you saying that the data book said that she loved him as a teammate and respectable friend only, or is that your personal interpretation of the manga? Or are you saying that the data book was intentionally vague and only clarified that she at least cared for him as a teammate and respectable friend, but could still have feelings for him that are something more?
> 
> Do you have a link to the page of the data book that you are referring to? I think that that would probably help me to understand this better. At the moment I think I'm just confusing myself...


Fellow debater,

Yes, I was only saying that the data book was intentionally vague about what Sakura, Naruto and Sasuke actually desire. This, is much like Kishimoto's writing himself. I don't own a link to it, but will be searching for it later on this evening.

Out of time,
KN


tyheru said:


> Well that's where NaruHina and NaruSaku fans disagree. You guys see loads of undisputed development, we don't. In the end we can argue about this all day but we'll get no where. So we'll just have to wait and see. Personally I think NaruSaku have about as much development as Harry/Hermione. We all know how that turned out.
> 
> Anyways, you didn't answer my question. Don't you feel that with the way things are potrayed in the manga, if Sakura chooses Naruto, that she'll be "settling" for him?


Kind poster,

No, because I feel that it has had development and this is different from a pairing that has never had any conversation worth mentioning with, ignoring the chuunin exams conversation.

Answered,
KN

I'm out of time. 
TTYL guise.


----------



## tyheru (Mar 23, 2009)

> Kind poster,
> 
> No, because I feel that it has had development and this is different from a pairing that has never had any conversation worth mentioning with, ignoring the chuunin exams conversation.
> 
> ...



Well good thing Naruto and Hinata well have plenty of time to talk after the whole pain arc is over. 

But you still didn't completely ask the question. Even if they did spend more time talking together, that doesn't mean Sakura wouldn't be "settling" for Naruto. So far, the feel I get from the story, is that naruto would be Sakura's second pick. A distant second to Sasuke.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 23, 2009)

tyheru said:


> Not true, Kishimoto said that Naruto was going to be a lot bigger than dragonball z. If I had to make a guess I say at least another 150 to 200 chapters.



He said he wanted to surpass the Dragonball Manga of 519 Chapters.  And let's not forget he stated "2 to 3 years remaining" at Jump Fiesta 07 (which now is believed could be late 2010 or early 2011).  And then there are the interviews stating he wanted to move on to his next project.



tyheru said:


> One question to NaruSaku fans. For all the complaints about NaruHina being to rushed (which I don't think it is) and Naruto being forced to fall in love with Naruto (which I don't think will be the case.



You don't think NaruHina is rushed?   Especially when it was 309 Chapters between significant NaruHina moments?  



tyheru said:


> How do you feel about Sakura going with Naruto?



I'm for it.  



tyheru said:


> Don't you feel like she's "settling" for Naruto? That she decided Sasuke is too evil/dead/whatever so she might as well go with Naruto?



I do feel that Sakura is currently in a transition where she does still love Sasuke, but now is starting to see Naruto in a romantic light as well.   

But she isn't choosing Naruto because Sasuke isn't around.   That's just as retarded as the "so and so pairing happened because so and so died" arguement.



tyheru said:


> I mean last time Naruto asked Sakura to grab a bite with him, her reaction was less than sweet. It was as if she decided to finally give him and go eat with him, as long as he pays. Not exactly romantic in my opinion, to act like a date with naruto is a pity date.





So what if you feel Chapter 247 wasn't "Romantic" in your book, he asked, she accepted.  End of story.

Frankly, I'm glad it wasn't romantic, because you would have people asking, "What about her feelings for Sasuke?"   Which would've effectively killed the plot and the suspense in finding Sasuke.



Zeky said:


> I think he was referring to the storyline. He met ChiChi as a boy, he made a promise without thinking. Time passed by and out of nowhere he crosses chichi in the martial-arts tourney. There you go, lead male - side female.



No, he was asking about her being a young girl.  Which had nothing to do with the arguement.



Zeky said:


> I rather say that there are not rules at all. (in a romantic way).



There are rules, you just don't throw in relationships without a reason.



Zeky said:


> yes... and no. People are screaming, but saying "it's confirmed" it's stupid at this moment. I'm (as a nh fan) screaming at the possibility for them to be together. Things are just not predictable right now, more facts are needed in order for both sides to claim victory.



Was it a NaruHina Moment?  Definitely

Was that moment a pairing confirmation?  No



Zeky said:


> The rest... well... even though he plans to do that.. there's no guarantee he will. You don't know if things are going to turn up as he wants to, so that point is just a doubt.



True, it could very well be next chapter for we know.  But normally, when it comes to pairings, the resolution normally occurs at the end.



Zeky said:


> Also i've read comments like "there are at least 80 chapter, so there's no time for them to develop". Well.. sorry but that's bullshit.



Then let me ask you.  Given what we know so far, how is Kishimoto going to develop that romance, given the plots that remain?


*Spoiler*: __ 



If Hinata should survive, we all know she is going to be in the hospital for a long time.   So she obviously not going to be at Naruto's side leading up to the final battle with the Akatsuki






Zeky said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> As far as i know (from reading the pages) Hinata claims her action as selfish and not her love as stated here. Saying that "she never was catching up to him romantically" doesn't make sense to me. She clearly says "I was always chasing you, trying to overtake you... I just wanted to walk with you", dont know you but that sounds like she wanted to be with him romatically.




*Spoiler*: _If that is the case then_ 





If her action wasn't selfish love then why she said, "I'm here because I want to be"?

Then she said, "I chased you forever, always wishing I could catch up."  Which indicates to me that she strived after him, but never could get his attention.

Which to me basically says to me, she knows he doesn't love her, but shes going to protect him anyhow.






Zeky said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



No, Naruto saved himself, or should I say the Kyuubi saved Naruto.  Not Hinata, because I don't think she intended to get hurt, in order to trigger the Kyuubi.

Hinata was the "final straw", because prior to that moment, he put his feelings on the backburner knowing this was the guy who killed Jiraiya and Kakashi.  But when he killed Hinata in front of him, that was it.

And those who said that Naruto transformed out of love, then how come was he wasn't sure of himself afterward?






Zeky said:


> I don't fully agree on that part. I would say that in order to be with Hinata, Naruto must think again (and seriously) about his feelings for Sakura and take a decision.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'm sorry, but those statements were very close-minded. 

Saying Naruto wasn't in love with Sakura, when it was more apparent than Hinata's love for Naruto.  And now your saying for NaruHina to happen, he has to second guess himself why he's been chasing her all these years? 

My gawd, that doesn't even sound like something Naruto would do. 



Zeky said:


> I do remember that. But you also need to remember that he acknowledges Sakura's love for Sasuke. Even though he left quietly he seemed to understood Sakuras feelings. I don't think he was jealous at all.



I never said he didn't. 

In fact, I wholeheartedly believe that Chapter 3's moment very much still plays an important part in Naruto's feelings for Sakura in Part 2.  Where he does still love her, but doesn't want to get between her love with Sasuke, and hurt her. 


*Spoiler*: _To Demonstrate_ 



Chapter 261, when Sakura sheds a tear for Naruto's sake, knowing that his fate would be death, Naruto changes the subject in making like it was for Gaara's sake.  Then when she tries to say something, he cuts her off.  

In fact, to everyone's surprise, I do believe we see this in Chapter 297 as well.  Naruto very well could've purposely said those insults to keep her from showing concern for him once again.

Also, remember in Chapter 298, when she was forced to make a decision between Naruto and Sasuke, Naruto made the decision for her, in choosing Sasuke.





But to those who think that this is Anti-NaruSaku, en contrare, its Pro-NaruSaku.   Because Naruto is giving up his own happiness for her sake.  And Sakura could very well realize that with a smile, and choose him.  (Which obviously would surprise Naruto.  )

And _that_ is more romantic than a simple confession of the heart, because Naruto demonstrated his love with action and not words.


----------



## tyheru (Mar 23, 2009)

> You don't think NaruHina is rushed? Especially when it was 309 Chapters between significant NaruHina moments?




Well I don't have time to answer everything in your post so I'll just answer this one. No it's not rushed. Because Naruto/Hinata has not happened. This is a possible beginning to NaruHina. Assuming they still have a over a 150 chapters to go, there's plenty of time to develop NaruHina (or NaruSaku). People keep saying it's rushed, but the timing was perfect in my opinion. Perfect moment for a NaruHina moment to happen, not that it means it's going to be canon, but it's definitely a memorable moment in the manga. It was a confession, not a get2gether. If Naruto and Hinata had just hooked up in 437 then yes it would have been rushed. But any confession is good at pretty much any time really. 

I mean in real life, when you have a crush on someone, it's not always on someone that you've had lot's of deep interaction right? You don't always fall in love with your best friend, a lot of time it's just a stranger at your school or work place. At some point your going to have let that person know how you feel. Nobody is going to tell you that you can't tell that person how you feel or that nothing will happen between you and that person because you don't have a very big history together. You'll MAKE the history together.


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## tyheru (Mar 23, 2009)

> But to those who think that this is Anti-NaruSaku, en contrare, its Pro-NaruSaku. Because Naruto is giving up his own happiness for her sake. And Sakura could very well realize that with a smile, and choose him. (Which obviously would surprise Naruto. )



That's just your interpretation. For all we know Naruto doesn't mean anything with those actions. Anyways, this NEVER happens in real life. Any guy or girl who's been in the friend zone at least once knows this.



> And that is more romantic than a simple confession of the heart, because Naruto demonstrated his love with action and not words



Hey, Hinata has demonstrated her through action plenty of times also. chapter 437 was pretty much all action.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 23, 2009)

Sorry for butting in, but I get an Anti-NaruSaku itch once in a while.



Tyrannos said:


> In fact, I wholeheartedly believe that Chapter 3's moment very much still plays an important part in Naruto's feelings for Sakura in Part 2.  Where he does still love her, but doesn't want to get between her love with Sasuke, and hurt her.



And where is that written ...? He still asks for dates and right after the stomache ache he had FULL intentions of going back there to slander Sasuke. So no. There is no evidence Naruto is putting romantic feelings aside for merely _Sakura's_ happiness in the sense you wish just cos he respects them. And considering how much he values them both [Sasuke & Sakura], there is no particular need to assume that till concrete evidence arises. It is canon fact that Naruto wants Sasuke's recognition above anyone else's [as Sakura said she did in the henge scene which she flashbacks in the Poal].
Here's a recap [I use a copyrighted translation so take it as you will]:
N: "You really adore Sasuke huh?"
S: "I know how much pain you're in for Sasuke. I can understand." What happens during the Retrieval arc supports the notion I am making.
_"Naruto, like Kimimaro was for Orochimaru...fights for his important person" [paraphrase] -Gaara_
That's what Sakura and Naruto have in common according to the evidence that gathers the most. Naruto has stated nothing more than wishing to be "liked" by her in the beginning of Part 1, and by the Naruto vs. Gaara battlee, he had her acknowledgment, never taking it _further_. There can be different excuses for that, thing is that he doesn't express his regard towards her in a *supremely* romantic manner, esp in Part 2. You don't see Naruto wanting to take Sasuke's place in Sakura's heart anywhere that isn't ambiguous [yes that means hospital scene]. I really wonder how people can see someone 'who never backs down on what he REALLY wants' loving a girl in an _amazingly_ romantic way when he's giving no signals of jealousy, but rather, a "brotherly" obsession towards the so-said rival in a way that makes straight guys shift in their seats. I see Naruto happy with Sakura's acknowledgment on a friendship level and not taking his assumed romantic disappointment so at heart... Even if it was deep down there, to me NaruSaku's attempts in proving it seem like nitpicking that isn't needed. Imo Sakura's romantic disinterest is not on Naruto's heartstrings canon-wise, though I'm sure he has some disappointment, his pride always seems threatened when it comes to that 



> [=To Demonstrate]Chapter 261, when Sakura sheds a tear for Naruto's sake, knowing he would die, Naruto changes the subject in making like it was for Gaara's sake.   Then when she tries to say something, he cuts her off.
> 
> In fact, to everyone's surprise, I do believe we see this in Chapter 297 as well.  Naruto very well could've purposely said those insults to keep her from showing affection for him.



I noticed that some like to push this argument. To me it was just Naruto not wanting her to excessively worry...you know? One can't draw a conclusion like that in a satisfactory manner without more evidence I think :/ and tbh I think you're taking that insult occurrence in 297 out of context. Naruto being himself isn't NaruSaku evidence; he didn't know what had happened, thus the assumption he made from her tears was totally random. As you see he had no clue until Yamato told him expressly the gravity of what took place.



> But to those who think that this is Anti-NaruSaku, en contrare, its Pro-NaruSaku.   Because Naruto is giving up his own happiness for her sake.  And Sakura could very well realize that with a smile, and choose him.  (Which obviously would surprise Naruto).



She already realizes whatever there is to realize on that matter - and she doesn't do any serious romantic move on it. 'Feeding ramen' is an affectionate gesture, of course, but it's still a fact she doesn't pursue him that way after ALL THAT HE'S DONE. Either Sakura is made of ice/is thick-headed, or doesn't love him romantically imo.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 23, 2009)

> But to those who think that this is Anti-NaruSaku, en contrare, its Pro-NaruSaku. Because Naruto is giving up his own happiness for her sake. And Sakura could very well realize that with a smile, and choose him. (Which obviously would surprise Naruto. )


 
How is Naruto giving up his own happiness? I just cannot see Naruto being one [a long way away from Chapter Three at this point] to immediately think "Now's my chance!" when an opening surfaces. So if he isn't being forward about [questionable] romantics, what exactly is he losing? Not to mention just as much --if not more-- panels deal with Sakura reacting over Sasuke, her asking Tsunade to heal him, and Tsunade also notices that Sakura has been there every day, watching him [devotion, daffodil reference again] And Naruto is intent on addressing SASUKE, not Sakura, so how can we tell if his focus is even on Sakura, or is it Sasuke? Or both? We're not particularly sure what he's thinking, and Tsunade's "sensitive" comment could mean more than one thing.​ 
I am unbelievably irritated with people that have, for such a long time, been waiting with bated breath for "Sakura's Choice". Honestly, what has indicated at all that Sakura needs to mull over, in her head, whom she loves; what indicates that she has to choose someone at all? What indicates she wants to choose?​


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## Tyrannos (Mar 23, 2009)

Zeky said:


> Did i say it was confirmed? Nope, just the opposite.


 
I know you wasn't saying that, but others were.



Zeky said:


> I didn't say that Hinata was planning to set the kyuubi free. It was the chain of events what led to that. You may say that if Hinata wouldn't jump in the kyuubi would have come alone by himself, i wont, but again.. it's your point of view against my point of view u_u


 
I never said you said so. 

Anyhow, Hinata is like a person who caused a pileup on the highway, because she saw a hazard and slammed on the brakes. In which in turn caused everyone behind her to smack one another. 



Zeky said:


> You say Naruto is in love with Sakura i say that it's only a crush, nothing romantic. But yet again.. it's your crap against my crap so.. it's pointless.
> 
> Btw.. i wont be posting here anymore.. every new page it's a loop over the previous one.. im sorry for being sucked in here.. the topic should wait till everything is cannon because so far it's like going into NH/NS FC and hear why and why not they believe it's/it isn't possible. Crappy.


 
Which what always happens in these debates. People running around in circles, vouching for their paring. In the meantime the circle they are running around in, gets larger as new pairing hints flow in. That has been the cycle since the pairing thread was created three years ago. 



Zeky said:


> btw... jumping in battle knowing that you are probable going to be killed just because you want to protect the one you love it is not an act of love... OK! and then confessing doesn't add nothing to the relationship... OK! It's your opinion i guess ^^


 
Tell that to those who fought in wars and saved their fellow troops in heroic action. I guarantee you they will say it's an act of love. A love for corp, honor, and country.

(I.E. for those who are ignorant, it's not romantic love, but comraderic / platonic love).



tyheru said:


> Well I don't have time to answer everything in your post so I'll just answer this one. No it's not rushed. Because Naruto/Hinata has not happened. This is a possible beginning to NaruHina. Assuming they still have a over a 150 chapters to go, there's plenty of time to develop NaruHina (or NaruSaku). People keep saying it's rushed, but the timing was perfect in my opinion. Perfect moment for a NaruHina moment to happen, not that it means it's going to be canon, but it's definitely a memorable moment in the manga.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes, it's possible that was the start of NaruHina. But personally, I'm not going to put a wager on it. Especially with the action plots that remains unresolved. I don't think any pairing is going to get any time in.



tyheru said:


> I mean in real life, when you have a crush on someone, it's not always on someone that you've had lot's of deep interaction right? You don't always fall in love with your best friend, a lot of time it's just a stranger at your school or work place. At some point your going to have let that person know how you feel. Nobody is going to tell you that you can't tell that person how you feel or that nothing will happen between you and that person because you don't have a very big history together. You'll MAKE the history together.


 
True, most of the time a crush is with people hardly knew on a personal level.

But I wouldn't say you wouldn't fall in love with your best friend. Men who are very close to women do end up together (school, work, etc.) In fact most men in marriages regard their wives as their best friend.

Hmm, come to think of it, why does that sound familiar? 



tyheru said:


> That's just your interpretation. For all we know Naruto doesn't mean anything with those actions.


 
Well no duh it's an intrepretation. 



tyheru said:


> Anyways, this NEVER happens in real life. Any guy or girl who's been in the friend zone at least once knows this.


 
This doesn't happen in the real world? 

Man, don't make me laugh. 

I bet there are plenty of people here that gave up their happiness, for the sake of another. Whether it's best friends having an interest in the same person, and one giving up so the other can be happy. Or a guy liking a girl, who liked another guy, giving up his chance to be with that girl, so that girl's happiness could happen.

I for one seen that first hand, so don't tell me that wasn't real. 



tyheru said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, Hinata has demonstrated her through action plenty of times also. chapter 437 was pretty much all action.


 
Please use spoiler tags in the HoU. 

And Hinata hasn't seen action since the Chuunin Exam, where she was used as a plot to get Naruto and Neji to fight. (Sounds familiar. )



izzyisozaki said:


> Sorry for butting in, but I get an Anti-NaruSaku itch once in a while.


 
What, you were doing such a good job defending it. 



izzyisozaki said:


> And where is that written ..?


 
What, there a law saying I'm not allowed to intrepret the story? 



izzyisozaki said:


> I noticed that some like to push this argument. To me it was just Naruto not wanting her to excessively worry...you know? One can't draw a conclusion like that in a satisfactory manner without more evidence I think :/ and tbh I think you're taking that insult occurrence in 297 out of context. Naruto being himself isn't NaruSaku evidence; he didn't know what had happened, thus the assumption he made from her tears was totally random. As you see he had no clue until Yamato told him expressly the gravity of what took place.


 
Uh huh, and why's that? 

And I wasn't saying Naruto being himself is or isn't NS evidense. 



izzyisozaki said:


> She already realizes whatever there is to realize on that matter - and she doesn't do any serious romantic move on it. 'Feeding ramen' is an affectionate gesture, of course, but it's still a fact she doesn't pursue him that way after ALL THAT HE'S DONE. Either Sakura is made of ice/is thick-headed, or doesn't love him romantically imo.


 
What does this have to do with Chapter 343? I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the future. 






Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> How is Naruto giving up his own happiness? I just cannot see Naruto being one [a long way away from Chapter Three at this point] to immediately think "Now's my chance!" when an opening surfaces. So if he isn't being forward about [questionable] romantics, what exactly is he losing? Not to mention just as much --if not more-- panels deal with Sakura reacting over Sasuke, her asking Tsunade to heal him, and Tsunade also notices that Sakura has been there every day, watching him [devotion, daffodil reference again] And Naruto is intent on addressing SASUKE, not Sakura, so how can we tell if his focus is even on Sakura, or is it Sasuke? Or both? We're not particularly sure what he's thinking, and Tsunade's "sensitive" comment could mean more than one thing.​


 
Naruto is giving up his chance to be with Sakura, so she can be with Sasuke.

And BTW, notice how you ignore Naruto's reaction (heart break) of Sakura hugging Sasuke as he wakes up. And ignores Tsunade's comment about his sensitivity. 







Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I am unbelievably irritated with people that have, for such a long time, been waiting with bated breath for "Sakura's Choice". Honestly, what has indicated at all that Sakura needs to mull over, in her head, whom she loves; what indicates that she has to choose someone at all? What indicates she wants to choose?​


 
How about the Sakura's Databook for starters? 

Which confirms what I been saying in this debate thread for the past few years, that Sakura is starting to see Naruto in a romantic light.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 23, 2009)

> Naruto is giving up his chance to be with Sakura, so she can be with Sasuke.


 
Where exactly is his "chance"?



> And BTW, notice how you ignore Naruto's reaction (heart break) of Sakura hugging Sasuke as he wakes up. And ignores Tsunade's comment about his sensitivity.


 
Sakura had already hugged / been hugging Sasuke. Then Naruto says "Sasuke . . ." his mind on Sasuke, no surprise, and THEN stops talking. She's already been hugging him, so how do you know what Naruto is reacting to.

Ignored it?



> And Naruto is intent on addressing SASUKE, not Sakura, so how can we tell if his focus is even on Sakura, or is it Sasuke? Or both? *We're not particularly sure what he's thinking, and Tsunade's "sensitive" comment could mean more than one* *thing.*


 


> How about the Sakura's Databook for starters?
> 
> Which confirms what I been saying in this debate thread for the past few years, that Sakura is starting to see Naruto in a romantic light.


 
The same Databook(s) that confirms Sakura loves Sasuke and Hinata loves Naruto, but people keep denying it? All of a sudden, people want to use it when it is supportive. Databooks support what's been shown in the manga; personally, I haven't seen Sakura's romantic change of heart.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 24, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> And your point with this, is?



It's a she by the way...

Parallels leave something to be desired, but Chichi wasn't just created for Gohan to appear in _Dragonball Z_.  She was a side/support character from her first appearance.





> So?  There is no rule that says that they have to acknowledge another girl's love, to justify their own.



Again, parallels from other manga and anime leave something to be desired.  However, shounen is typically straightforward with pairings.  So if a crush is brought up you usually know fairly soon and irrevocably if it has a chance or not.  
Sorry any LeeSaku fans  Take that scene in the FoD where Lee has to catch all the leaves otherwise Sakura would never love him.  That last leaf falls.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 24, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> What, you were doing such a good job defending it.


 
Well the former sure is easier.



> What, there a law saying I'm not allowed to intrepret the story?


 
Sorry if I asked for evidence.



> Uh huh, and why's that?
> 
> And I wasn't saying Naruto being himself is or isn't NS evidense.


 
Look, I'm just countering what YOU said.


> > In fact, to everyone's surprise, I do believe we see this in Chapter 297 as well. Naruto very well could've purposely said those insults to keep her from showing affection for him



And cos they're FRIENDS 



> What does this have to do with Chapter 343? I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the future.


 
I just used that as an EXAMPLE of when Sakura realizes how Naruto respects her feelings  thus stimulating her to do something for him... I think I'll facepalm now to the fact you couldn't counter my post in any way.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 24, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Where exactly is his "chance"?


 
The chance he could've taken without Sasuke around.  



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Sakura had already hugged / been hugging Sasuke. Then Naruto says "Sasuke . . ." his mind on Sasuke, no surprise, and THEN stops talking. She's already been hugging him, so how do you know what Naruto is reacting to.
> 
> Ignored it?


 
Well since we aren't seeing eye to eye, lets analyze Chapter 172, shall we?

Ranks please


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Page 13:* Naruto enters the room enthusiastically with Tsunade.

*Page 14:* Tsunade comments on the flowers (which indicate Sakura's been frequently at Sasuke's bedside).

*Page 15:* Tsunade does her voodoo and Sakura tears up thinking it's not working. But Tsunade reassures her.

*Page 17:* Sasuke wakes up and Sakura glomps him.

Naruto says, "Sasuke you..." and cuts himself off as he sees Sakura tearfully hugging Sasuke. Naruto's face first shows one of shock, then as Sakura continues hugging him, his face becomes one of heartbreak.

*Page 18:* Naruto leaves the room, and Tsunade comments on his sensitivity.




Look at Naruto's expression change as Sakura hugs Sasuke.  He obviously is upset, seeing her hug Sasuke.   He becomes bothered enough he has to leave the room.

Why is that?   Could it be hes heart broken as the girl he loved, showing affection for his rival?   I sure got that impression. 



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> The same Databook(s) that confirms Sakura loves Sasuke and Hinata loves Naruto, but people keep denying it? All of a sudden, people want to use it when it is supportive. Databooks support what's been shown in the manga; personally, I haven't seen Sakura's romantic change of heart.



I don't recall anyone denying Sakura loving Sasuke, or Hinata having a thing for Naruto.

And think about what you said.  Databooks supplement the manga.  Which means that there is something in the manga and not pulling something out of thin air, like you are not accusing it of doing.  

You said you havn't seen it, well I have.   Chapter 298 is a very obvious moment of that.   Does she go after Sasuke and leave a very weakened Naruto to fend for himself?   Or does she stay by Naruto's side and risk never seeing Sasuke ever again?



moonjump05 said:


> Parallels leave something to be desired, but Chichi wasn't just created for Gohan to appear in _Dragonball Z_.  She was a side/support character from her first appearance.



Toriyama would disagree with you there.  



moonjump05 said:


> Again, parallels from other manga and anime leave something to be desired.  However, shounen is typically straightforward with pairings.  So if a crush is brought up you usually know fairly soon and irrevocably if it has a chance or not.



If thats the case then why is everyone on NaruHina's side, saying Naruto's feelings for Sakura are nonexistant or irrelevant?   After all, Naruto is the title character, so shouldn't his feelings be more relevant?



izzyisozaki said:


> Well the former sure is easier.



Very interesting.  



izzyisozaki said:


> Sorry if I asked for evidence.



And that would be?



izzyisozaki said:


> And cos they're FRIENDS



What, it's not possible that two friends, one by and one girl, couldn't get together?  



izzyisozaki said:


> I just used that as an EXAMPLE of when Sakura realizes how Naruto respects her feelings  thus stimulating her to do something for him... I think I'll facepalm now to the fact you couldn't counter my post in any way.



Sorry, I really don't see Sakura in Chapter 343 being manipulative in helping Naruto so he can bring Sasuke back sooner.   That makes Sakura look like a user and not a heroine.

Not to mention it kills the romantic hints during that chapter.


----------



## tyheru (Mar 24, 2009)

> Well since we aren't seeing eye to eye, lets analyze Chapter 172, shall we?
> 
> This
> 
> ...



I got to disagree with you on one part. naruto does not look upset when Sakura hugs Sasuke. He looks almost happy, content with all that's happening. I mean look, he's smiling.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 24, 2009)

^Please tell me you're kidding.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 24, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> The chance he could've taken without Sasuke around.


 
And you really believe Naruto would do that?



> Well since we aren't seeing eye to eye, lets analyze Chapter 172, shall we?
> 
> This
> 
> ...


 
I'm not seeing shock or heartbreak, really. Surprise, maybe, for the former, and content in the latter. It's a very mild reaction for apparent heartbreak, in my opinion. Not denying he is upset, but I have no firm belief he is in love with her. And again, Naruto's attention was on Sasuke, not Sakura. Is his reaction to Sakura, or Sasuke? Both? Maybe.



> I don't recall anyone denying Sakura loving Sasuke, or Hinata having a thing for Naruto.


 
Hah, read past debate threads.



> And think about what you said. Databooks supplement the manga. Which means that there is something in the manga and not pulling something out of thin air, like you are not accusing it of doing.
> 
> You said you havn't seen it, well I have. Chapter 298 is a very obvious moment of that. Does she go after Sasuke and leave a very weakened Naruto to fend for himself? Or does she stay by Naruto's side and risk never seeing Sasuke ever again?


 
That "something", however, hasn't been explicitly expressed as romance; I see a different type of bond forming than you do. When of the utmost, friendship is stressed throughout, I'm not going to assume they're in love because they save one another.


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## tyheru (Mar 24, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ^Please tell me you're kidding.



No, I'm not. Look at his mouth, he's smiling one of those bittersweet smiles.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 24, 2009)

tyheru said:


> No, I'm not. Look at his mouth, he's smiling one of those bittersweet smiles.



Doesn't mean he loves SasuSaku. Cos he doesn't. It makes him feel _left out_ (just look at the anime scene if it's that hard for you to pick up). He left with a forlorn smile cos his love [for either] isn't selfish.


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 24, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> The chance he could've taken without Sasuke around.



This is -fantastic- evidence for NaruSaku!  When Sasuke isn't around, it's possible!  Oh Minato's shining crotch, I've seen the light!



> If thats the case then why is everyone on NaruHina's side, saying Naruto's feelings for Sakura are nonexistant or irrelevant? After all, Naruto is the title character, so shouldn't his feelings be more relevant?



Oh pish-posh, Naruto's feelings for Sakura are very existant and relevant (to this discussion, anyway, not really to the plot)!  But those feelings are, for the most part, displayed as being more platonic rather than romantic.



Bit off-tangent from my point but I think I'll say it anyway:

Really, the only times we see him seriously considering his feelings are only at moments when he sees Sakura _with Sasuke_, _being_ with Sasuke (not necessarily being with him in a romantic way, but being with him regardless).  And how Naruto reacts to these moments has to be interpreted. *shrug*  But because they haven't been able to get Sasuke back, we haven't seen Naruto take anything seriously, other than asking Sakura for dates for comedic affect.

Honestly, NaruSaku hints have to be _interpreted_ that way.  Sakura's "romantic" feelings for Naruto?  Interpreted.  They can be friendship or romantic.  Depends how you _interpret_ it, and because she's never had confirmed romantic feelings for Naruto before, romantic feelings have to be interpreted in Part Two.  Hinata's romantic feelings?  _Canon_ taken seriously.  Sakura's romantic feelings for Sasuke?  _Canon_ taken seriously (and there isn't anything to confirm that her love for him has faded -- any fading feelings for him must be _interpreted_).  Naruto's feelings?  Canon _comedy_.

And hey, it's a shonen.  Everyone's romantic feelings are pretty irrelevant for everything, except in the case where a lot of their characterization is revolved around those romantic feelings -- Sakura (her feelings for Sasuke) is pretty much attached to Sasuke's hip for most of Part One (well, at least during the Forest of Death arc) and we see those romantic feelings mature as Part One goes on (leading to her confession at the end of Part One/training and working hard to be stronger in Part Two), and Hinata's romantic feelings for Naruto (who inspired her) is the whole reason why she's grown to be stronger so she could be more like Naruto.  Sakura has grown stronger because of Naruto -- _and_ Sasuke, there is no singling out either of them in this way.  When Naruto trains, he doesn't do it to gain recognition from Sakura.  She already recognizes him as a good person and a great friend.  Naruto grows stronger for Sasuke, for _himself_ and his _village,_ which include both Sakura _and_ Sasuke (at least, he wants Sasuke to be a part of the village again -- time will tell).

NOTE: I am NOT saying that romantic love is the most important part of Sakura and Hinata, not even close (everyone should know that both Sakura and Hinata have huge characterization both behind and ahead of them without any relevance to the men they love), but I don't think anyone can deny that loving Sasuke was a huge chunk of Sakura's characterization (just as he was a huge chunk of Naruto's), just like no one can deny Naruto was a huge chunk of Hinata's.  Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura, however, are not a huge part of his character (he doesn't say, "I'm going to be recognized, become Hokage, and capture Sakura's heart!", he says "Everyone will recognize me and I will become Hokage!".  Sakura says, "I'll save Sasuke, and I'll get stronger and improve myself to get Sasuke back".  Hinata says, "I will become stronger to protect my precious ones, because Naruto has shown me strength!").

Feelings that have to be interpreted is not proof.  It's interpretations so that not all their moments are comic relief.  A couple that only has interpreted romantic moments and comic-relief moments is poor proof for couple hints, at least when matched against hardcore canon evidence where another person's feelings aren't always used as a joke (Hinata's feelings, Sakura's feelings; will Naruto return them?  Who knows.  Will Sasuke return them?  Who knows -- that's not my point).  Note that this isn't supposed to be an argument for NaruHina or SasuSaku or anything, just an argument against NaruSaku -- imho, NaruHina and SasuSaku will probably become canon (or at least one of them will), but my point isn't arguing _for_ them, it's arguing against NaruSaku (I want to emphasize this, since someone prior thought that just because I brought up Sakura and Hinata's feelings, I was automatically saying that NaruHina = SasuSaku, which honestly isn't what I was arguing at all, and it's absolutely not what I'm arguing now, my point is purely against NaruSaku -- Sakura's and Hinata's feelings are merely a catalyst to that point).






> What, it's not possible that two friends, one by and one girl, couldn't get together?



........

I think you missed Izzyisozaki's point.


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## tyheru (Mar 24, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Doesn't mean he loves SasuSaku. Cos he doesn't. It makes him feel _left out_ (just look at the anime scene if it's that hard for you to pick up). He left with a forlorn smile cos his love [for either] isn't selfish.



Yeah but again we are left having to interprete feelings. If we have to infer what they are saying, then it can't be considered evidence for or against NaruSaku. It's a case of "read between the lines" vs "isn't it obvious?". If you have to read between the lines for evidence for a romantic pairing, then it doesn't prove anything for that pairing. Just look at the Harry/Hermione vs Ron/Hermione.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 24, 2009)

tyheru said:


> Yeah but again we are left having to interprete feelings. If we have to infer what they are saying, then it can't be considered evidence for or against NaruSaku. It's a case of "read between the lines" vs "isn't it obvious?". If you have to read between the lines for evidence for a romantic pairing, then it doesn't prove anything for that pairing. Just look at the Harry/Hermione vs Ron/Hermione.



Oh but that never seems to lack in SasuSaku 

First, circumstances are circumstances that can be backed up by evidence. Naruto had worked his ass off to get Tsunade back to cure Sasuke. And right when he gets up to ask how Sasuke is, Sakura whoops and gropes a hazy consternated Sasuke. Naruto shifts into a state of evident _discomfort_ seeing them together like that. He leaves the room, not wanting to be a third wheel [Sakura is crying and thus Tsunade picks up on Naruto's respectful gesture ]. Having ramen with Iruka eventually cheers him up. WHY NOT? It's not like Sasuke and Sakura just got married. He immediately goes back to check on _Sasuke_.
So am I defending NaruSaku in that scene? Hell no  I'm telling you his bad feelings towards SasuSaku are serious. The author didn't put it there for laughs. It was revolting for anyone who gives a care about Naruto's feelings, romantic or not. Either way it is canon FACT Naruto didn't want Sakura ignoring him over Sasuke.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 24, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Toriyama would disagree with you there.



Huh?  He's the one who put Chichi in Dragonball, with a subplot to be resolved.  If she was only there for teh making of the Gohan and Goten why bother.





> If thats the case then why is everyone on NaruHina's side, saying Naruto's feelings for Sakura are nonexistant or irrelevant?   After all, Naruto is the title character, so shouldn't his feelings be more relevant?



Because they are never elaborated on after chapter 3, never a main motivation for him, and never taken seriously after the PoaL.  Quite frankly NaruSaku died at the hospital scene when Sakura hugged Sasuke and Naruto left them alone.


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## tyheru (Mar 25, 2009)

> Oh but that never seems to lack in SasuSaku



Oh I don't really care about SasuSaku. If it happens or not, I don't care. I don't agree with you that Naruto was upset when he saw Sasuke and Sakura hugging, at least I don't see it as canon fact. Not with the pages you've shown me. I see Naruto about to burst in and say something to Sasuke, then he sees the SasuSaku moment and he smiles and leaves and decides to give them some time alone. He goes eat some ramen with iruka and then decided to go back and talk to Sasuke. However if you can find the anime version for me, I might agree with you.


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 25, 2009)

tyheru said:


> Oh I don't really care about SasuSaku. If it happens or not, I don't care. I don't agree with you that Naruto was upset when he saw Sasuke and Sakura hugging, at least I don't see it as canon fact. Not with the pages you've shown me. I see Naruto about to burst in and say something to Sasuke, then he sees the SasuSaku moment and he smiles and leaves and decides to give them some time alone. He goes eat some ramen with iruka and then decided to go back and talk to Sasuke. However if you can find the anime version for me, I might agree with you.



Except, I must admit that Tsunade's comment seems to say otherwise.  Even he was a bit bummed, that didn't seem to last very long, since Naruto goes to have ramen with Iruka and decides to go see Sasuke afterwards.  He seemed to be in a cheerful mood too, so looks like he wasn't dwelling on it or anything.


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## saasha (Mar 25, 2009)

Actually, doesnt Tsunade simply comment that even naruto is capable of being sensitive on rare occasions. Can someone tell me what chapter this is from so I can confirm it? That to me only implies that Tsunade is noticing that Naruto is being considerate of sasuke & sakura by deciding to give them some alone time. I'm not sure she was commenting on hw upset naruto was or else she would have attempted to comfort him or smthing. He was hurt but not hurt enough to imply a broken heart imo. His smile was one of tender acceptance.

Great post & QFT Spiffy is Glory!!


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 25, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> Except, I must admit that Tsunade's comment seems to say otherwise. Even he was a bit bummed, that didn't seem to last very long, since Naruto goes to have ramen with Iruka and decides to go see Sasuke afterwards. He seemed to be in a cheerful mood too, so looks like he wasn't dwelling on it or anything.


 
He is bummed, because he wanted to speak to Sasuke, who is busy being held by the girl whom he wants the attention of. I just have a serious issue with people making it sound as if his heart was ripped out, or he's positively crushed, because he honestly does _not_ look as if his emotions are wrenched in all directions and torn into pieces. Saying that is basically implying that Naruto is already deeply and madly _in love_ with Sakura. 

Bittersweet smile doesn't equate to a torn-out, stomped-on heart.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 25, 2009)

Okay - for those who doubt what epic phail Naruto felt like when he saw that scene, take a look at the episode in the anime.
Source <--click on player's "English subbed" button and go to 12:00.

*Spoiler*: _it's not that hard to see_ 











Then take a good look at the scene again.

*Spoiler*: __ 







He is isolated.
I can't believe this is getting argued over. Naruto has never enjoyed "romantic" SasuSaku. EVER. Shrugging off evidence cos he doesn't announce it bending over in agony is really... He left cos he was being CONSIDERATE [-Tsunade]. _Sakura was crying._ Stop shrugging it off cos he doesn't have jealousy tantrums when it regards the two people he loves the most. IT WAS JUST A HUG AND THAT WAS ENOUGH TO AFFECT HIM. It was put there for a reason. His bestfriend's life just got saved and he's gonna go around and mope? Please. I understand that people don't care about Naruto's emotional positions except if it's Hinata, but this is going too far.



> Bittersweet smile doesn't equate to a torn-out, stomped-on heart.



It was _just a hug_. Not a toast to Sasuke and Sakura's engagement


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## DancingPetal (Mar 25, 2009)

> Bittersweet smile doesn't equate to a torn-out, stomped-on heart.



In Naruto's case, it actually might. Considering his background he wouldn't expect things to actually go his way - meaning that he gets Sakura in whatever way. So that he's "simply" smiling in this bittersweet way for him is showing a broken heart because he's so used to it now that emotional fits for an expected letdown are too much. He's just too emotionally abused to react in a "normal" way.


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## tyheru (Mar 25, 2009)

Okay I will admit, from what I see in the ANIME scene, you might be right. I still don't see it in the manga panel, but that's not needed since I think anime is just as canon as manga for the most part.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 25, 2009)

^It's supposed to be an automatic assumption  if he felt so great his smile wouldn't have disappeared.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 25, 2009)

tyheru said:


> I got to disagree with you on one part. naruto does not look upset when Sakura hugs Sasuke. He looks almost happy, content with all that's happening. I mean look, he's smiling.



I disagree, it's far from one of happiness.  

Seeing Sakura hug Sasuke bothered him and that's why he left the room.  (Aka, he was heartbroken.)  Even in the anime version, as she's hugging Sasuke, it shows him becoming distant, then he leaves the room.   So Naruto's obviously not him putting on a smile as if saying, "I'm happy that she's happy."



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> And you really believe Naruto would do that?



Well let me put it this way, if anyone here saw someone they really liked, and they were alone, wouldn't you try to get close to them in hopes of becoming a couple?  So why not Naruto?

But that's a "what if", the Naruto we know now, doesn't want to get between her and Sasuke.  He wants her happy and will go the limits for her sake.

Now it doesn't rule out NaruSaku, because like I said before, Naruto's efforts could be winning her over.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I'm not seeing shock or heartbreak, really. Surprise, maybe, for the former, and content in the latter. It's a very mild reaction for apparent heartbreak, in my opinion. Not denying he is upset, but I have no firm belief he is in love with her. And again, Naruto's attention was on Sasuke, not Sakura. Is his reaction to Sakura, or Sasuke? Both? Maybe.



If that was the case, then do explain the anime version, showing Naruto in a white background, getting distant? 


And I'm disappointed you and everyone else here that are so blinded by bias,  that you do not acknowledge Naruto's love for Sakura.  It's clearly there, to which even the anime teams see it.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> That "something", however, hasn't been explicitly expressed as romance; I see a different type of bond forming than you do. When of the utmost, friendship is stressed throughout, I'm not going to assume they're in love because they save one another.



Ironic statement considering you SasuSakus and your NaruHina friends use "saving" moments in justification for your pairings.  

BTW, romance doesn't have to be obvious like a confession.   There are other types that exist as well.   You be surprised, the most common type of romance are people who knew one another for a long time, and their bonds became so strong that they end up together as husband and wife.



moonjump05 said:


> Huh?  He's the one who put Chichi in Dragonball, with a subplot to be resolved.  If she was only there for teh making of the Gohan and Goten why bother.





So you're whole reasoning was because he put Chichi in.  Even though you ignore his own words?   



moonjump05 said:


> Because they are never elaborated on after chapter 3, never a main motivation for him, and never taken seriously after the PoaL.  Quite frankly NaruSaku died at the hospital scene when Sakura hugged Sasuke and Naruto left them alone.



Well, bud.  The manga and even the databooks, sure disagrees with your assessment.


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## saasha (Mar 25, 2009)

Of course, Naruto did not feel great. He felt terrible. It hurt him imensely to see the girl he likes demonstrate her deep-seated feelings for his best friend & to recognize that his best friend just might not be as immune to her feelings as he pretends to be. His smile disappears & he distantly watches them as he's grappling with his emotions & then he comes to a conclusion & his smile reappears, this time being one of tender acceptance. 

It is important to note that he doesnt slowly back away, his hurt feelings fading into the background implying feeelings of isolation. Instead, he gives them a tender smile of acceptance, recognizing that it is futile to force his half-hearted affections on someone, who so clearly is in love with his best friend & especially not, if there is even an inkling of a chance that his best friend might return her feelings. These feelings/reactions of naruto aren't exclusive to a broken heart. Even a guy/gal with a crush is entitled to these emotions. There is no way to tell if Naruto really has a broken heart or not.


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## hmph (Mar 25, 2009)

No hes just being selfless. He wants to be with her, but he wants her to be happy more, so he won't try to interfere. Which is quite different from "I won't bother because I don't care enough to fight for this." It's contrastable to, say, Sakura's infautation with Sasuke in that scene, where she throws herself on Sasuke.


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## saasha (Mar 25, 2009)

It was, without a doubt a selfless action on Naruto's part. Didn't deny it. There still isn't anything that proves he is in love with her; has romantically inclined feelings for her-yes, in love with her-no. 

Though, don't see the contrast you are trying to create with sakura's actions & neither do I see any infatuation. She tearfully hugs sasuke, the boy she's fallen in love with, her friend & teammate, after he wakes up from a coma. How you see her actions as selfish is beyond me. There isn't even any indication that saske doesn't want her warmth near him this time around.


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## N120 (Mar 25, 2009)

i dont think sakura deserves naruto, and sasuke doesnt want to be with sakura, they will go their seperate ways in terms of pairings.

 naruto and sakura just doesnt fit in any way shape or form, he needs someone calm,brave,patient and little more attentive to sort himself out and sasuke needs someone who simply ready to do what he wants at a moments notice and someone who isnt fussy and requires little maintance.

as 4 sakura, i dont really care about her - it doesnt really matter who she ends up with really, her story is not really that interesting.


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## ironblade_x1 (Mar 25, 2009)

I'll be completely honest here.
When I supported SasuSaku, it was for one reason and one reason only:

Colors. Red and Blue seem so nice together, as do Pink and Black. 

I don't openly support the pair anymore, but I still can't help looking at colors


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## moonjump05 (Mar 25, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Well, bud.  The manga and even the databooks, sure disagrees with your assessment.



Really?  I'd like to see where.



izzyisozaki said:


> He is isolated.
> I can't believe this is getting argued over. Naruto has never enjoyed "romantic" SasuSaku. EVER. Shrugging off evidence cos he doesn't announce it bending over in agony is really... He left cos he was being CONSIDERATE [-Tsunade]. _Sakura was crying._ Stop shrugging it off cos he doesn't have jealousy tantrums when it regards the two people he loves the most. IT WAS JUST A HUG AND THAT WAS ENOUGH TO AFFECT HIM. It was put there for a reason. His bestfriend's life just got saved and he's gonna go around and mope? Please. I understand that people don't care about Naruto's emotional positions except if it's Hinata, but this is going too far.



As for the hug, I don't think it's _isolation _per se.  But more like him feeling like a third wheel at that point.  Sakura and Sasuke were having a moment between themselves, he saw that, gave a bittersweet smile and left.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 25, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Really?  I'd like to see where.



I'll give you a hint, start with Sakura's profile.


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## Andre (Mar 25, 2009)

N120 said:


> naruto and sakura just doesn't fit



You're joking... Naruto is the loud and dense and all about power character while Sakura is the one with the brains and knowledge and is level headed and calm and collected one. They balance each other out.

Plus theres the fact Sakura is a very typical re-curring character in manga as far as romance goes. I mean, I can't even count how many of the different stories I read with the same archetype. They fit dude, end of discussion.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 25, 2009)

saasha said:


> Of course, Naruto did not feel great. He felt terrible. It hurt him imensely to see the girl he likes demonstrate her deep-seated feelings for his best friend & *to recognize that his best friend just might not be as immune to her feelings* as he pretends to be. His smile disappears & he distantly watches them as he's grappling with his emotions & then he comes to a conclusion & his smile reappears, this time being one of tender acceptance.
> 
> It is important to note that he doesnt slowly back away, his hurt feelings fading into the background implying feeelings of isolation. Instead, he gives them a tender smile of acceptance, recognizing that it is futile to force his half-hearted affections on someone, who so clearly is in love with his best friend & especially not, if there is even an inkling of a chance that his best friend might return her feelings. These feelings/reactions of naruto aren't exclusive to a broken heart. Even a guy/gal with a crush is entitled to these emotions. There is no way to tell if Naruto really has a broken heart or not.



No proof.

Sasuke, when he's in a state of vulnerability, as in INJURED, never pushes Sakura violently off  so your statement fails to prove anything about Sasuke that isn't, almost extreme, speculation. Naruto left the room most probably _for Sakura_. People forget, for the 1000th time,* Naruto was just as worried as she was* . Sometimes I wonder if there is any sense of literary coherency on this board. Naruto isn't Sasuke's bestfriend and Sakura's most trusted person for nothing.

*Spoiler*: _Yeah Sakura's feelings are srs bsns compared to Naruto's_ 









So many notions people aren't even backing up just to make their pairing look blessed by the protagonist. Naruto isn't selfish. He gives space esp when it comes to Sakura's feelings [this has been hammered over and over again], and for either. He is regardful despite of his own feelings, opposite of the insensitive imbecile SasuSaku loves to portray him as to make Sasuke seem worthy of what he doesn't even pursue. It isn't an excuse for SasuSaku to dance on than rather just show the pairing doesn't even happen by itself. This blatant ignorement of the seriousness of Naruto's feelings by instumentalizing Sasuke in a way to suit pairing logic is just abominable...


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## Erendhyl (Mar 25, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> No proof.
> 
> Sasuke, when he's in a state of vulnerability, as in INJURED, never pushes Sakura violently off  so your statement fails to prove anything about Sasuke that isn't, almost extreme, speculation. *Naruto left the room most probably for Sakura.* People forget, for the 1000th time,* Naruto was just as worried as she was* . Sometimes I wonder if there is any sense of literary coherency on this board. Naruto isn't Sasuke's bestfriend and Sakura's most trusted person for nothing.



I agree with most of your points in here. The bolded part (that is not also underlined) is the only bit that I disagree with. Naruto left for Sasuke as well.

insgesamt 3

Starting at the second row, we see Sakura crying, Naruto begin to say something to Sasuke, and then Naruto stopping with a semi-startled expression on his face. The next panel shows a close up of Sasuke's face as he looks at Sakura, followed by Naruto's face again and then that expression that's been debated for the past page or so.

_Sasuke_ was what caused that reaction from Naruto. Not Sakura. If Naruto's reaction had been in response to Sakura, then it would have been her face that was pictured in the middle of Naruto's shock. Instead, it was Sasuke's. There was something in _Sasuke's_ expression that caused the reaction seen. Do I think it was Sasuke's deep romantic feelings for Sakura? No. However, there was something about _Sasuke_ that caused the reaction we see in Naruto.



> *Spoiler*: _Yeah Sakura's feelings are srs bsns compared to Naruto's_



Please note that I am really not trying to belittle Naruto's reaction by saying this. Naruto reacted very strongly to that situation because his bond with Sasuke is the most precious one he has. However, comparing this particular reaction of Naruto's to Sakura's reaction when Sasuke wakes up is unfair.

In the panels shown, Naruto has just witnessed Sasuke be tortured at the hands of his older brother. He's seen Sasuke screaming in pain and being beaten even after it was already clear that Itachi had won.

Sakura hasn't seen that. Gai hadn't shown up yet during Itachi and Sasuke's (rather onesided) battle, or else he wouldn't have been able to mistake Naruto and Jiraiya for Itachi and Kisame, as he would have clearly seen the Akatsuki flee already. If Gai hadn't seen it, no one in Konoha would have been able to tell her what had happened to Sasuke, beyond that he was now in a coma with a fractured arm and ribs after fighting Uchiha Itachi. Actually seeing those chapters is a lot more powerful than hearing the results described to you and having to imagine the circumstances under which those damages were inflicted.

Sakura witnessed the comatose patient for the past month. Naruto witnessed the boy being tortured. The difference between what they've seen would impact their reactions to it.



> Naruto isn't selfish. He gives space esp when it comes to Sakura's feelings [this has been hammered over and over again], and for either. *He is regardful despite of his own feelings, opposite of the insensitive imbecile SasuSaku loves to portray him as to make Sasuke seem worthy of what he doesn't even pursue.*



Once again, I agree with the first part of your post, but the bolded part I find myself in disagreement with. Sasuke doesn't need to be proven worthy of Sakura. Whether or not he is actually worthy of her is completely irrelevant to the pairing. For the pairing, all that matters is if Sakura thinks that he is worthy of her, and if Sasuke begins to return her romantic feelings. (I am not trying to argue that he does return her feelings at the moment; I am saying that that is what matters for the pairing.)

As for Naruto being portrayed as an insensitive imbecile... I find this just as disgusting as you do, and I support SasuSaku. Both this scene and the Promise of a Lifetime demonstrate that Naruto is not going to be an idiot wherever Sakura demonstrates that she has feelings for Sasuke. Even if it upsets him, he's going to be selfless about it and not act like an immature child, because Sakura matters to him. (As does Sasuke.)


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 25, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> I agree with most of your points in here. The bolded part (that is not also underlined) is the only bit that I disagree with. Naruto left for Sasuke as well.



I know Naruto left for Sasuke as well - but not in the overenhanced SS sense that is implied by the poster.



> Starting at the second row, we see Sakura crying, Naruto begin to say something to Sasuke, and then Naruto stopping with a semi-startled expression on his face. The next panel shows a close up of Sasuke's face as he looks at Sakura, followed by Naruto's face again and then that expression that's been debated for the past page or so.
> _Sasuke_ was what caused that reaction from Naruto. Not Sakura. If Naruto's reaction had been in response to Sakura, then it would have been her face that was pictured in the middle of Naruto's shock. Instead, it was Sasuke's. There was something in _Sasuke's_ expression that caused the reaction seen. Do I think it was Sasuke's deep romantic feelings for Sakura? No. However, there was something about _Sasuke_ that caused the reaction we see in Naruto.



No it wasn't imo. Naruto left cos of how shaken Sakura was over Sasuke. Sasuke's face was seen after the shocked look because he FELT LEFT OUT. Sasuke just woke up and reacted to the most immediate thing that was there. There was nothing unusual in the sequence and Naruto leaves on behalf of both, but it's a natural conclusion that it was Sakura's emotivity, cos like I said, he was just as worried to then go unnoticed. Just shows how much SasuSaku hurts him and I don't think it's for mere NaruSaku merit.



> Please note that I am really not trying to belittle Naruto's reaction by saying this. Naruto reacted very strongly to that situation because his bond with Sasuke is the most precious one he has. However, comparing this particular reaction of Naruto's to Sakura's reaction when Sasuke wakes up is unfair.
> 
> In the panels shown, Naruto has just witnessed Sasuke be tortured at the hands of his older brother. He's seen Sasuke screaming in pain and being beaten even after it was already clear that Itachi had won.
> 
> ...



Naruto was the one who went and did something about it. His effort and reaction is just as tantamount as Sakura's. When Naruto comes back to the room, Sasuke says "you thought you saved me?" and Naruto gets extremely pissed at Sasuke's dismissal of his efforts to bring Tsunade to cure him. I don't pull SasuNaru/whatever interpretation out of my ass. Naruto didn't like the hugging scene for well-grounded, though not shared by many, logic.



> Once again, I agree with the first part of your post, but the bolded part I find myself in disagreement with. Sasuke doesn't need to be proven worthy of Sakura. Whether or not he is actually worthy of her is completely irrelevant to the pairing. For the pairing, all that matters is if Sakura thinks that he is worthy of her, and if Sasuke begins to return her romantic feelings. (I am not trying to argue that he does return her feelings at the moment; I am saying that that is what matters for the pairing.)



If that's so true SasuSaku needs to stop dismissing Naruto's feelings.



> As for Naruto being portrayed as an insensitive imbecile... I find this just as disgusting as you do, and I support SasuSaku. Both this scene and the Promise of a Lifetime demonstrate that Naruto is not going to be an idiot wherever Sakura demonstrates that she has feelings for Sasuke. Even if it upsets him, he's going to be selfless about it and not act like an immature child, because Sakura matters to him. (As does Sasuke.)



Amen. But you're not like all SasuSaku reasoners.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 25, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> It was _just a hug_. Not a toast to Sasuke and Sakura's engagement


 
I know that. Tyrannos said he had a "broken heart", and I think that's a bit heavy of a description.



Tyrannos said:


> Well let me put it this way, if anyone here saw someone they really liked, and they were alone, wouldn't you try to get close to them in hopes of becoming a couple? So why not Naruto?


 
When they clearly have eyes for someone else? Ehhh, prolly not. Perhaps I'm not one to step in that way. =/



> But that's a "what if", *the Naruto we know now, doesn't want to get between her and Sasuke.* He wants her happy and will go the limits for her sake.


 
*That's what I was stating. *



> If that was the case, then do explain the anime version, showing Naruto in a white background, getting distant?
> 
> And I'm disappointed you and everyone else here that are so blinded by bias, that you do not acknowledge Naruto's love for Sakura. It's clearly there, to which even the anime teams see it.


 
I haven't watched the anime for a couple years; I stick to the manga. And it appears different in the manga, which is what I reference. 

Haha, everyone is biased. 

I'm disappointed in you, too: You keep lumping us SasuSaku and NaruHina people together, which is not always the case. I have a different [other than NaruHina], favourite, Naruto X character pairing, you know.




> Ironic statement considering you SasuSakus and your NaruHina friends use "saving" moments in justification for your pairings.
> 
> BTW, romance doesn't have to be obvious like a confession. There are other types that exist as well. You be surprised, the most common type of romance are people who knew one another for a long time, and their bonds became so strong that they end up together as husband and wife.


 
Using "saving moments" as explicit romantic moments? Not usually. The only one I can think of, actually, is the recent manga chapters, which there was an obvious romantic context.

I'm dating my best [male] friend of four years. I'm not against / ignorant of that dynamic. However, it isn't /always/ the case. 



> If that's so true SasuSaku needs to stop dismissing Naruto's feelings.


 
If this is referring to me, how in the world did I dismiss Naruto's feelings? Just because I don't think his heart was ripped out and shattered?


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 25, 2009)

^Nah Miss P it's just the general misunderstanding. In fact neither of us have much favor for NaruSaku interpretation so I wasn't referring to you in a specific sense, however, to dismiss it completely is just nonsensical.


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 25, 2009)

saasha said:


> Great post & QFT Spiffy is Glory!!



Aw, thanks.   You've made some great points, yourself.



Also, *raises hand* I'm also with the bunch of SasuSaku and NaruHina shippers who don't want to dismiss Naruto's feelings for Sakura.  Just wanted to point that out that not all of us are like that, I (as I noted in my last post) absolutely recognize Naruto's feelings (I even sympathize with them -- who wouldn't?), I just disagree with the sentiment that they're as intense as some (emphasis: some) NaruSaku-ers make them out to be, or that he hasn't grown beyond the initial hurt.  But again, (going with my earlier point) that's my own interpretation.  I could find myself wrong in the future, even if I doubt it. =)

Honestly, I'm with Miss P (? is that an okay name? XD) on this one.  The lumping is starting to get a little irritating.  While I think that SasuSaku and NaruHina will be canon, I enjoy a variety of other ships myself (LeeSaku, i.e., or even sometimes NaruSaku itself!  ).  But that's off-topic, so. *shrug*



> You're joking... Naruto is the *loud and dense and all about power* character while Sakura is the one with the brains and knowledge and is level headed and calm and collected one. They balance each other out.



Actually, if you want to go about balance, do you know who Naruto's opposite (female-wise) could also be a fantastic candidate for?  Let's see, who's insanely *shy*, *decisively quick*, and all about *no longer being weak*?   The fact that NaruSaku balance each other out isn't a good hint, because I can find just as many people who can balance out both characters  just as much as they do each other.

Or let's talk about Temari.

She's got many of Sakura's same characteristics.  She's got strategical skill (something that, except in the heat of battle, Naruto can sometimes lack XD), she knows when to be quiet/cunning (rather than screaming, "I'LL KICK ALL YOUR ASSES!" like a certain knuckleheaded ninja we all love; she'll sometimes give the "I'm gonna win" grin, but so does Sakura XD), and she's brains, knowledge, she's calm and collected, blah blah blah.

Hm, maybe I'll start shipping Temari/Naruto now. 


Or like Kiba and Sakura.  Do I even  need to explain how these two are opposites?  It's a fun crack ship (hey, I'd read it lol), but does anyone seriously think Kiba and Sakura will end up together? XD


I'm not saying that NaruHina will happen because she's his opposite or because their opposites balance each other out (not even close, that's a ridiculous argument).  I was merely countering your point.  Just because two people are each other's opposites does not mean they fit together.  Yeah, yeah.  Opposites attract and all that shiz -- complimentary, yadda yadda yadda pity pity pancakes.  But I think in some cases, opposites repel.


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## saasha (Mar 25, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> I know Naruto left for Sasuke as well - but not in the overenhanced SS sense that is implied by the poster.



I haven't implied anything of the sort. You are reading too much into my post. In any case, Erendhyl took the words right out of my mouth before I could reply to ur post & I agree with her.





> No it wasn't imo. Naruto left cos of how shaken Sakura was over Sasuke. Sasuke's face was seen after the shocked look because he FELT LEFT OUT. Sasuke just woke up and reacted to the most immediate thing that was there. There was nothing unusual in the sequence and Naruto leaves on behalf of both, but it's a natural conclusion that it was Sakura's emotivity, cos like I said, he was just as worried to then go unnoticed. Just shows how much SasuSaku hurts him and I don't think it's for mere NaruSaku merit.



Like you said, its your opinion & interpretation of the scene. We'll have to agree to disagree here. Though, I think you're being a little contradictory imo. You say naruto left because of how shaken sakura is & then you also say he left on behalf of both sasuke & sakura? How do you figure that out? 





> Amen. But you're not like all SasuSaku reasoners.



Its not very nice to generalize & lump people into groups. Its a little annoying, (especially, when I & a bunch of other sasusaku & naruhina-ers *do not *do any of those things you mentioned/implied in your post)


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## Sephero (Mar 25, 2009)

So NaruHina gets a slice of fanservice pie, and suddenly 437 chapaters of creative apathy towards Hinata and her relationship with Naruto will suddenly be reversed and canonized? 

I mean, besides the obvious question of why, it seems to me that to canonize NaruHina OR SasuSaku now, at the end of the series, would be the worlds biggest catch-22 for it's fans; so why does anybody still care?

If it weren't to be canonized now, it would suck because then pairing fans don't get what they want, but if it *were* to be canonized now, it would still suck, because NaruHina and SasuSaku have had no build-up. 

I can see it being exciting and/or rewarding for NaruSaku at least, because they have had the bonus of seeing a close relationship change over time, and evolve into something possibly more than friends. At least that's romantic and fulfilling. I don't see how you can have a character with less panel time than Asuma suddenly appear out of nowhere and confess feelings of love and not think it was a shitty, contrived, fanservice ploy. 

I mean, regardless about how you feel on the subject, I can tell you with succinct authority that Hinata's confession was not only bad, it was _*terribad*_, and her subsequent survival was even worse. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



So wait, _Pain_, who has never lost a fight and has defeated two of the most powerful Shinobi in history, MISSED the vitals of an unconcious teenage girl right in front of him? 

How does this not smell of editoral pressure to you guys? 


Editors: People really like this Hinata person in the states. I think you should have her confess during this fight.

Kishimoto: Really? Because that sounds pretty stupid.

Editors: I don't think you understand, Masashi. We have a comic to sell. This is a BUSINESS, so get your nonexistent ass in gear and deliver us tripe or said ass is FIRED. 

Kishimoto: Alright, Hinata jumps on Pain, confesses her feelings and dies.

Editors: No, no. I'm afraid not. Hinata has to survive.

Kishimoto: What the fuck? I already drew her getting stabbed!

Editors: He missed her vitals. Say that he missed her vitals.

Kishimoto: He's Pain! He just blew up half of Konoha!

Editors: I'LL BLOW UP HALF OF YOUR SALARY UNLESS YOU FUCKING DRAW THAT WOMAN ALIVE AND WELL!


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## Tsukasa009 (Mar 25, 2009)

Sephero said:


> So NaruHina gets a slice of fanservice pie, and suddenly 437 chapaters of creative apathy towards Hinata and her relationship with Naruto will suddenly be reversed and canonized?
> 
> I mean, besides the obvious question of why, it seems to me that to canonize NaruHina OR SasuSaku now, at the end of the series, would be the worlds biggest catch-22 for it's fans; so why does anybody still care?
> 
> ...



hypothetically if naruhina were to become canonized no one would be dumb enough to just shove it into the story like that, hinata's confession wasn't double sided and the her feelings are just out in the open... i can DEFINITELY agree with you that if naruhina were SUDDENLY canonized it would be.... HORRIBLE. But we don't know how kishi will go about anything at this point. IMO the confession was just a way of nudging hinata into more of a spotlight and maybe add a bit more characterization/screen time for her character, maybe to help justify or do the opposite for naruhina. though the situation you gave was definitely agreeably terribad


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 25, 2009)

> If it weren't to be canonized now, it would suck because then pairing fans don't get what they want, but if it were to be canonized now, it would still suck, because NaruHina and SasuSaku have had no build-up.



Just because you don't see a character every chapter doesn't make their development null.



> I can see it being exciting and/or rewarding for NaruSaku at least, because they have had the bonus of seeing a close relationship change over time, and evolve into something possibly more than friends. At least that's romantic and fulfilling. *I don't see how you can have a character with less panel time than Asuma *suddenly appear out of nowhere and confess feelings of love and not think it was a shitty, contrived, fanservice ploy.



NaruSaku: Quantity over Quality. 



> I mean, regardless about how you feel on the subject, *I can tell you with succinct authority *that Hinata's confession was not only bad, it was terribad, and her subsequent survival was even worse.



o rly?

Objection!  Your authority is overruled!

Next you'll be telling me bisexual English majors don't exist. 

In all honesty, I actually liked the confession a lot, and I wasn't even a huge NaruHina supporter at the time. I just kind of liked the thought of them, even if they hadn't gone canon.  Not to mention, it turned a lot of on-the-fence people into liking NaruHina, so I don't think it was _that_ bad.  But hey, that's just my opinion. 



New law: when people sink to the degree of saying, "THE EDITORS MADE THE AUTHOR DO EET!!!!!", they have officially lost the argument and/or seriously damaged their argument by resorting to made-up behind-the-scenes speculation.

kthxbai.

(_Wow, lol, and I thought when people said that was an anti-NaruHina argument, I thought they were making with the hyperbole_)



Edit: lol.  Just thought of this.  Even if the editors _did_ force the author to write something, it still happened! 


Son of Edit: edited to tone down my sarcasm. I apologize.  Sometimes my fingers get the better of me. :ho


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## Sephero (Mar 25, 2009)

Tsukasa009 said:


> the confession was just a way of nudging hinata into more of a spotlight and maybe add a bit more characterization/screen time for her character



Exactly. 

I've said it before, I'll say it again; Hinata's confession was the tying up of loose ends that would otherwise have been left unadressed, and some stale fanservice bread her fans can mong on before she is swiftly cast back into the cold, sterile abyss of anonymity. 

Let's just stand back and take a look at what has actually happened: Hinata told Naruto something we've already known since chapter 2, she's been on two covers, and she's still alive. How is this at all unexpected? 

Yes, Kishimoto is putting strong emphasis on Hinata-chan (and paying for it with his credibility, by the way), but does this indicate any kind of scientific trend that NaruHina is in the works? Sakura fawned on Sasuke since the beggining, right up until he left, even confessed HER love for him, and what came of it? Nothing. 

So before we start waving the fact flag around in the air, and before I am subjected to anymore self-pity from the NaruSaku camp, let's all sit down and drink a nice hot cup of rationality. 

First off, what is the only legitimate moment NaruHina has gotten in the past few chapters? Naruto got angry when Pain stabbed her and turned into the Kyuubi. 

Ok, that's fine. I could accept the possibility that he got angry because he cares about Hinata. If Sakura got stabbed, he'd be mad too; EXPLOSIVELY mad, in a similar manner. Do you see how using that as a moment doesn't stand up under scrutiny? He feels the same way about Sakura, so how does that prove anything beyond basic human empathy in your minds?

Second, in the latest chapter: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



He cries when he hears she's okay. Same thing as above. He'd cry for Sakura. Is he in love with Sakura? He'd cry for Kakashi. Is he in love with Kakashi? 




You are still standing on shaky ground here.


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 26, 2009)

> Yes, Kishimoto is putting strong emphasis on Hinata-chan (and* paying for it with his credibility,* by the way),



How?  Just because certain factions of the fandom don't like this development doesn't in any way disturb his credibility.  Kishimoto will always have haters, no matter what direction the story goes in.  If he decides to put in NaruHina, nothing will change this.  If anything, at least with Japanese fans, he'd lose more credibility with NaruSaku for the simple fact that not nearly as many people like it in Japan as they do in the Western area.

Please back up your facts, and not with generalizations / opinions.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> He cries when he hears she's okay. Same thing as above. He'd cry for Sakura. Is he in love with Sakura? He'd cry for Kakashi. Is he in love with Kakashi?




*Spoiler*: __ 



I would never disagree.

However, the point is that he cries for _Hinata_, not for Sakura or Kakashi.  The fact that Hinata confessed to him makes it possible (if not necessary -- if they do hook up at some point) to see this in a romantic light.

I'm not saying that NaruHina will become canon or anything (I'm not that cocky), but I do believe you're willfully ignoring the way Kishimoto may have just set this up.  If you want build-up, don't ignore it.


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## Sephero (Mar 26, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> Just because you don't see a character every chapter doesn't make their development null.



Yes it does, because then they have less of it. 



Spiffy is Glory said:


> NaruSaku: Quantity over Quality.



Hinata's moments with Naruto have been quality? Really? Fainting and hiding? I think you're just saying that because otherwise the situation would be:

NaruSaku: Quantity over Nothing. 




Spiffy is Glory said:


> o rly?
> 
> Objection!  Your authority is overruled!
> 
> Next you'll be telling me bisexual English majors don't exist.



What?



Spiffy is Glory said:


> New law: when people sink to the degree of saying, "THE EDITORS MADE THE AUTHOR DO EET!!!!!", they have officially lost the argument and/or seriously damaged their argument by resorting to made-up behind-the-scenes speculation.



No, i'm still winning the argument, because I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying it's so bad that's what could've happened.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> How?  Just because certain factions of the fandom don't like this development doesn't in any way disturb his credibility.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata survived getting stabbed by one of the strongest Shinobi on earth at point blank range. I can say as a statement of fact that that fucking sucks.






Spiffy is Glory said:


> Please back up your facts, and not with generalizations / opinions.



You first.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 26, 2009)

What you have said Sephero is interesting. Naruto cares deeply for all the people that surrounds him and the scenario you provided could have also taken place.

There is just one tiny little difference that you might have possibly overlooked in the parallell you made with Hinata and Sakura.

When Hinata jumped in the battlefield to defend Naruto and before she "fell" before Pain, she said this.



Hinata told him she *loves him.* How many times Naruto hears something like that coming out of someone?s mouth and it is directed to him and only himself? It?s quite ironic that he always looked for it in Sakura, but now he hears it from the most unexpected person he could ever believe.

It is hardly that he atleast won?t give her a chance and try to feel something new. That?s what life is about.

Feel free to respond, cos this dude here is going to hit the bed right now.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 26, 2009)

LOL, Sephero strikes again!  :xzaru



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I know that. Tyrannos said he had a "broken heart", and I think that's a bit heavy of a description.



Guess you never seen a heartbreak moment before.   



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> When they clearly have eyes for someone else? Ehhh, prolly not. Perhaps I'm not one to step in that way. =/



Well, there are plenty of guys and girls who wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of that opening.   With Naruto, he obvious didn't take the direct approach, but working alongside Sakura is starting to get her attention as she see's Naruto's good traits (persistance, hope, care, and more).



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> *That's what I was stating. *



Not exactly.

You're basically saying, "Naruto knows Sakura chosen Sasuke, so he gave up on her."

While I'm saying, "He's given her space so he doesn't interfere with her love.  and is going to let Sakura decide for herself.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I haven't watched the anime for a couple years; I stick to the manga. And it appears different in the manga, which is what I reference.
> 
> Haha, everyone is biased.



Yes, we all are biased.  But some people here are so blinded by it, they refuse to see the other's viewpoint.





Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Using "saving moments" as explicit romantic moments? Not usually. The only one I can think of, actually, is the recent manga chapters, which there was an obvious romantic context.
> 
> I'm dating my best [male] friend of four years. I'm not against / ignorant of that dynamic. However, it isn't /always/ the case.



Actually, its more common than you realize.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> If this is referring to me, how in the world did I dismiss Naruto's feelings? Just because I don't think his heart was ripped out and shattered?



More than that, you don't wish to acknowledge any kind of romantic possibilities between Naruto and Sakura, because it threatens SasuSaku.


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## saasha (Mar 26, 2009)

Sephero said:


> If it weren't to be canonized now, it would suck because then pairing fans don't get what they want, but if it *were* to be canonized now, it would still suck, because NaruHina and SasuSaku have had no build-up.



You're kidding me?  They've both had plenty of decent build up. Its scattered in spades & mounds throughout the manga. It would only suck to those who've been blind to it & purposely ignored all the build-up in favour of the belief that narusaku would become canon. 



> I mean, regardless about how you feel on the subject, I can tell you with succinct authority that Hinata's confession was not only bad, it was _*terribad*_, and her subsequent survival was even worse.



Pfft!! Regardless of how you feel on the subject, I can tell you with conviction that Hinata's confession was bloody brilliant & essential for her character development & her subsequent survival was an absolutely satisfactory & deserving consequence for the resolution of Hinata as a character in the Narutoverse. And naruhina isn't even my OTP.



> So wait, _Pain_, who has never lost a fight and has defeated two of the most powerful Shinobi in history, MISSED the vitals of an unconcious teenage girl right in front of him?



Yes, Because we've never had teenage girls in danger of being mauled to death by a riduculously strong villain, survive & escape the jaws of death by a fraction of an inch & lived to tell the tale in mangas & animes before.... Oh, wait,  but that's not true.



> How does this not smell of editoral pressure to you guys?



:amazed Because it isn't?




> Editors: People really like this Hinata person in the states. I think you should have her confess during this fight.
> 
> Kishimoto: Really? Because that sounds pretty stupid.
> 
> ...



Honestly, this feels like wishful thinking to me since the manga clearly isn't going to give you what you want. Kishi has given no indication that he favours narusaku over the other pairings. Infact, he made sure to load Part 1with sasusaku & naruhina, while still dropping subtle hints for them in Part 2. 

Narusaku, imo, has had no romantic development whatsoever in Part 2 or 1. Not to mention, Kishi's interviews say that he adores Sakura's feelings for sasuke(selfish or not) & that he would like for Hinata to have her love requited or something to that effect. Narusaku wasn't even mentioned. This doesn't make naruhina & sasusaku canon, but it does show that Kishi has plans for these two & that he doesn't view them negatively.


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## Sephero (Mar 26, 2009)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Hinata told him she *loves him.* How many times Naruto hears something like that coming out of someone?s mouth and it is directed to him and only himself? It?s quite ironic that he always looked for it in Sakura, but now he hears it from the most unexpected person he could ever believe.



NaruHina has become FAR more likely in the last few chapters than it ever was before, just because if you take a look at the overall trend and focus on the character, you'll see that the situation for the fandom is alot better off, to be fair. 

But what you're talking about is mostly an assumption. 

Yes, Naruto has never heard that from someone, that is true.

But only _inferences_ can be made as to what effect this statement has on him. To say that Naruto's reaction was more intense because of it is unprovable, and can't be used to debate NaruHina's legitimacy. 

The primary reason NaruHina isn't going to be made canon I've gone over before, but I'd like to reiterate that if this moment hadn't been guaranteed to happen since Hinata's inception as a character, it would hold more weight. 

Hinata HAD to confess eventually. Now we are just waiting for Naruto's reaction to it, which will not culminate in their coupling. I'm not even going to deny the possibility that it will culminate in a date, but by the end of the series, Naruto and Sakura will be the implied couple. Watch and see.


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## tyheru (Mar 26, 2009)

No offens Sephero, but you're being pretty stupid here. You can't honestly believe Kishimoto was pressured into doing the confession by his superiors? Or that Kishimoto hates NaruHina and SasuSaku (when interviews have shown that he actually likes these pairings)?

A lot of NaruSaku fans on this board says they think the confession was horrible, but I see nothing wrong with it. It was perfect if you ask me. even my Naruto fans who could care less about the pairing loved it. In fact, I even showed it to a non anime friend and she liked it. Thought it was sweet and that the timing was perfect.



Sephero said:


> NaruHina has become FAR more likely in the last few chapters than it ever was before, just because if you take a look at the overall trend and focus on the character, you'll see that the situation for the fandom is alot better off, to be fair.
> 
> But what you're talking about is mostly an assumption.
> 
> ...



Wanna bet?


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## saasha (Mar 26, 2009)

@ Sephero 

Its no different from all the inferences you are continuously making except you seem to think your _inferences_ are facts.


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 26, 2009)

> Yes it does, because then they have less of it.



So you're basically saying main characters can't get together with non-main characters?



> Hinata's moments with Naruto have been quality? Really? Fainting and hiding? I think you're just saying that because otherwise the situation would be:
> 
> NaruSaku: Quantity over Nothing




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm sorry, was I arguing NaruHina?  I was pointing out why NaruSaku isn't going to be together just because they have more interaction.  NaruHina was merely (once again) a catalyst to that point. 

Even so, the hints at Naruto and Hinata's potential romance seem to be treated better/differently than, "Sakura-chan, date?" "NO, DUMBASS!"   Hinata finally revealing her feelings is met with a sacrifice to at least attempt to save her precious one, and Naruto going 6/8/9 tails and crying over her.  Naruto revealing his feelings to Sakura?  An upper-cut.

Also with Naruto and Hinata's quality interaction (note that I'm not really trying to argue NaruHina, I'm merely picking holes in your theory), you have Naruto making a blood oath, and blood oaths seem to always hold significance since the beginning of the manga. This is purely Naruto getting pissed at Neji over how he treats Hinata, because it reminds him of how he was treated his whole life (this is a Naruto and Hinata quality moment, with Neji as a catalyst) -- the Promise of a Lifetime was promising Sakura he'd get _Sasuke_ back, and it was a promise more to himself than necessarily to Sakura.  I would count the blood oath as being an important "quality build-up" moment (especially when you count the other factors of that scene, such as Naruto being Hinata's inspiration, yaddax3), but ymmv.

Hinata grows stronger because of Naruto's inspiration, and blah blah blah.  Just like I wouldn't trivialize Sakura's heart-felt moments with Naruto (her realizing he's a Jinchuuriki, the promise of lifetime which is more like a Team 7 moment rather than a NaruSaku moment, and a variety of other scenes that can be interpreted as friendship or romantic), it's impossible to trivialize Hinata's interaction with Naruto just on the basis of screentime.  Again, not really arguing NaruHina here, just stating that their interactions are considered (one-sidedly) romantic (just like the NaruSaku moments can be interpreted), they are not nothing, and some of them are downright damn good quality. 






> No, *i'm still winning the argument,* because I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying *it's so bad that's what could've happened*.



Pardon me if I disagree.



> Hinata survived getting stabbed by one of the strongest Shinobi on earth at point blank range. I can say as a statement of fact that that fucking sucks.



Kishimoto can explain him missing Hinata's vital points a variety of ways I'm not going to explain in a romance debate thread.  If you have any gripes on that issue, bring it to the Prediction thread.



> You first.



?

Not the one using generalizations and opinions to state facts "of succinct authority".  If you're talking about NaruSaku being less popular in Japan than it is in Western areas, you can check a variety of romance polls on this factor.  Here's one from 2007:

Itachi Uchiha and Yondaime Hokage ~ Equivalent Legacies

In worldwide fandom, NaruSaku was ranked fourth below SasuSaku (#1), NaruHina (#2), and SasuNaru (#3).  However, in _Japanese_ fandom, NaruSaku isn't even in the top ten.  Took me _forever_ to find this link, lol. XD I wish it was a more recent poll, but my Google foo has failed me. 

That doesn't prove it won't happen. I'm merely covering my ass, since you asked for back-up, so I gave you back-up.  Your turn.


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## Sephero (Mar 26, 2009)

saasha said:


> You're kidding me?  They've both had plenty of decent build up. Its scattered in spades & mounds throughout the manga. It would only suck to those who've been blind to it & purposely ignored all the build-up in favour of the belief that narusaku would become canon.



I'm not even a pairing fan. I don't think any of the romances are particularly engaging, but SasuSaku and NaruHina are especially terrible. Sakura chasing around Sasuke like a needy ex is pathetic, and Hinata being practically immobile in Naruto's presence is equally irritating. 

I mean, you are more than entitled to feel that one conversation during the Chuunin Exams and a couple of scattered instances of fainting and blushing is better than an entire manga of two contradictory personalities playing off of eachother and growing to respect one another if you want, just like a Twitard is entitled to like Twilight, but that doesn't mean what you like is good or has had decent "build up" in the objective sense. 



saasha said:


> Pfft!! Regardless of how you feel on the subject, I can tell you with conviction that Hinata's confession was bloody brilliant



I don't feel anything on the subject, YOU feel "anything" on the subject, which is why it seems like a good moment to you.

It sucked though. Trust me on this. It wasn't essential for anything except tying up a loose end during an action sequence so Kishi doesn't have to waste precious post-battle panel space that could be better used to develop the relationships in team 7. 




saasha said:


> Yes, Because we've never had teenage girls in danger of being mauled to death by a riduculously strong villain, survive & escape the jaws of death by a fraction of an inch & lived to tell the tale in mangas & animes before.... Oh, wait,  but that's not true.



The mangas and animes you are referring to I don't read, because manga and anime sucks. I wasn't denying that these types of moments happen, only that they are bad.



saasha said:


> @ Sephero
> 
> Its no different from all the inferences you are continuously making except you seem to think your _inferences_ are facts.



I haven't even warmed up yet and I'm already making people cry.


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 26, 2009)

> I don't feel anything on the subject, YOU feel "anything" on the subject, which is why it seems like a good moment to you.



She's just using as much succinct authority as you are.  "Treat others how you wish to be treated", eh?



> It sucked though. Trust me on this.



It rocked, though.  Trust  me on this.


*Spoiler*: __ 



It flowed into Hinata's character, it fit her, it was a kickass way to confidently confess her feelings, apparently (I might be wrong on this) she saved Frog Ma's life by intervening at that perfect moment, it prevented Naruto from giving up to Pein at that moment, it was a catalyst to Naruto finally meeting his papa (*bows to Minato*), and finally we'll be seeing whether or not Hinata's feelings will be returned.




C wut i did thar?


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 26, 2009)

Sephero said:


> I can't trust anyone with Hinata in their avatar.



Not really sure how to respond to this.  Hmm.  I'll take it as a joke. 

Hinata's a great character (imho) and she'll have lots of scenes with Naruto.  Will these scenes be romantic?  Who knows.  But it's frankly ridiculous to say that their moments are null, because they're not.


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## Sephero (Mar 26, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> Not really sure how to respond to this.  Hmm.  I'll take it as a joke.
> 
> Hinata's a great character (imho) and she'll have lots of scenes with Naruto.  Will these scenes be romantic?  Who knows.  But it's frankly ridiculous to say that their moments are null, because they're not.



Never said that. Just said NaruHina won't happen.


----------



## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 26, 2009)

> LoL guys, Naruto cried when he found out Sasuke [who had protected him and confessed something vague, if not romantic love] had survived too. Double standards ftw.



If not romantic love?  What do mean by that?  Just curious.  Not getting on your ass or anything, I'm just curious how you interpreted it that way. It's an interesting view on it. 

I have lots of SasuNaru love partially for the depth of their bond and what it means to Naruto, so it's not double standards here.  I like both ships.




> Never said that. Just said NaruHina won't happen.



Wasn't really responding to you, just adding onto prior posts. 

Tho I did just catch this...



> I haven't even warmed up yet and I'm already making people cry.



Yeeeeeeeah. But I'm not sure they're the tears of sorrow you're looking for.  



> I mean, you are more than entitled to feel that one conversation during the Chuunin Exams and a couple of scattered instances of fainting and blushing is better than an entire manga of two contradictory personalities playing off of eachother and growing to respect one another if you want, just like a Twitard is entitled to like Twilight, but that doesn't mean what you like is good or has had decent "build up" in the objective sense.



There was build-up/payoff during part one during the Chuunin Exams arc (Naruto's victory over Neji among other things)... that's an objective fact, isn't it?  And, besides, gaining respect for someone you used to hate doesn't mean it has to be romantic.

Also, keep in mind that just because you don't like something doesn't make it _bad_, either.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 26, 2009)

@Spiffy- Sorry if my wording seemed ambiguous. Since SasuNaru is judged not to be romantic I put it that way, just implying that his response to "why?" was ambiguous and didn't end with a clear-cut "I love you" 
*Spoiler*: __ 



like Hinata's speech did.


 Sasuke said he didn't know why he did it [flashback moment] and that his body simply moved on his own, furtherly admitting that by saving Naruto he had sacrificed his life ambition...


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 26, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> @Spiffy- Sorry if my wording seemed ambiguous. Since SasuNaru is judged not to be romantic I put it that way, just implying that his response to "why?" was ambiguous and didn't end with a clear-cut "I love you"
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, I see.  I can see how you'd see it that way.  It's a fantastic shippy moment (whether platonic/romantic, imo). While I personally see that as a friendship moment myself (that's my personal interpretation), if I were a bigger shipper of the two, I'd definitely take that and run with it. *nodnod* I approve, dammit.

Also, I think I should probably clarify my earlier point a bit more.  I think there might have been a slight misunderstanding (my fault, haha).  
*Spoiler*: __ 



I wasn't necessarily saying that Naruto crying over her was romantic (though, rereading my post, I can see how it could be read that way), I was just depicting the difference in results between Hinata's confession and Naruto constantly asking Sakura on dates (Naruto has a big reaction, Hinata has a big sacrificing confession; this is matched against someone who constantly asks the girl out on dates and gets punched for it -- not to trivialize Naruto's feelings or anything, but the only time Naruto canonically confesses any sort of romantic feelings for her in Part Two, it's when he asks her out on dates). I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to make it romantic, I think my point was that, "NaruSaku is just that much more unlikely". XD


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 26, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> Ah, I see.  I can see how you'd see it that way.  It's a fantastic shippy moment (whether platonic/romantic, imo). While I personally see that as a friendship moment myself (that's my personal interpretation), if I were a bigger shipper of the two, I'd definitely take that and run with it. *nodnod* I approve, dammit.
> 
> Also, I think I should probably clarify my earlier point a bit more.  I think there might have been a slight misunderstanding (my fault, haha).
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Yes it's a shippy moment  but just for adding to a developing relationship I find to be intimate to the point the word romance doesn't really mean anything to me. When someone is on the life motivation and special emotional influence level to me it's canon. Thanks for the clarification, cos a lot of things sound a bit wrong lately even if not intended. Though I don't ship NaruSaku, when SasuNaru is out of the picture, I find it has quite a deal that's left hanging before a pairing like NaruHina could break through it.


----------



## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 26, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Yes it's a shippy moment  but just for adding to a developing relationship I find to be intimate to the point the word romance doesn't really mean anything to me. When someone is on the life motivation and special emotional influence level to me it's canon. Thanks for the clarification, cos a lot of things sound a bit wrong lately even if not intended. *Though I don't ship NaruSaku, when SasuNaru is out of the picture, I find it has quite a deal that's left hanging before a pairing like NaruHina could break through it.*



lol @ your siggie. Oh sad. 

=) Very nice points.  SasuNaru will probably always have a place in my heart, even if I don't think it'll be the ending relationship (I could be wrong, obviously, who knows? XD If it happens, I wouldn't mind it at all).  I've felt the same about various ships, and (emphasis on the bolded part) I feel very much the same about certain other ships in both this fandom and other fandoms, so I very much agree, heh.  I won't divulge those ships, though, for the simple fact that I don't want to be lumped or generalized.

Speaking of generalizing, I was just going through the posts I missed while writing up responses to other posts.

Oh jeez.



> Tyrannos:
> Guess you never seen a heartbreak moment before.



Not that I'm trying to bring real life into the argument, but people view heartbreak differently than others do; something that seems like heartbreak to someone is different to someone else.  i.e. let's say you're afraid of getting a shot, so whenever you get one, it really hurts.  Let's say I'm not afraid of shots, so whenever I get one, it doesn't hurt at all.  Something that _looks_ painful to you (Naruto's expression/shot) might not look as painful to someone else.

Yes, I think Naruto was disappointed seeing Sakura and Sasuke being like that.  But in the end, he moved beyond it and was able to solidify his bonds with Sasuke. Yes yes, I know, I'm using interpretations after making a huge honking post about them, but dammit, everyone else is doing it!  I promise to do it very rarely from now on, kay?



> Well, there are plenty of guys and girls who wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of that opening. With Naruto, he obvious didn't take the direct approach, but working alongside Sakura is starting to get her attention as she see's Naruto's good traits (persistance, hope, care, and more).




Many claim that NaruSaku is selfless.

But if it's so selfless, why would Naruto see working alone with Sakura as a stepping stone to hook up with Sakura?  You mentioned that you didn't want to believe Sakura to be taking advantage of Naruto or anything like that, yet this is blatantly Naruto taking advantage of Sakura.  At least, in the way you phrased it.

If Kishimoto decides to do something like this, he'd probably be able to do it and make it seem alright, but honestly, how does this not make Naruto look petty or at least somewhat manipulative?

Not to mention, it doesn't really put your ship in a good light if the male counterpart has to rely on Sasuke's absense in order to happen. 



> Yes, we all are biased. But some people here are so blinded by it, they refuse to see the other's viewpoint.



Mm, I don't think that person is Miss P.  In fact, from what I've seen, she and various others in this thread (on all four sides of the argument) have been absolutely open-minded in their debates (Sennin of Hardwork instantly comes to mind).

Then again, you did mention "some" -- that just seemed to me to be a pointed comment.  Maybe I'm being too sensitive?  It is 3 AM (time flies when you're having fun, haha).




> Actually, its more common than you realize.



Who said it wasn't common? And does that automatically mean it's what's going to be canon?

Nope.



> More than that, you don't wish to acknowledge any kind of romantic possibilities between Naruto and Sakura, because it threatens SasuSaku.



Attack the argument, not the poster.  Personally, while I can't speak for Miss P, I think you misunderstood.

This is how I feel about the subject, because I'm allowed to give it and dammit I shall:

I acknowledge that Naruto has a crush on Sakura (or at least had).  I do not think it'll grow to be anything else (is it possible?  Sure.  Likely?  Not in my opinion).  Do I believe this because it threatens SasuSaku?  No.

Do I believe that you don't wish to acknowledge the possibility of SasuSaku because of NaruSaku?  Frankly, it's none of my business.  Will I generalize that you do and say it in the debate thread?  No.  Why?  Because it's a personal issue and frankly, irrelevent and most likely untrue.


Shi-at.



(also, sorry if some points come out a little weird; I'm pumped up on coffee and Mountain Dew at the moment (deadly ninja combination!  Sneak attack caffeine, go! pew, pew), sooooo... XD)


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 26, 2009)

Sorry I only saw your post now Seph distracted me 



saasha said:


> I haven't implied anything of the sort. You are reading too much into my post. In any case, Erendhyl took the words right out of my mouth before I could reply to ur post & I agree with her.



Now maybe you're the one reading too far into my posts. After someone, who actually loathes NaruSaku, reads post after post which dismiss it with heavy speculation [imo] or what not I wonder what you guys are even trying to point out in the first place. I'm honestly too lazy to quote and underline the insinuations but I will if you make me. Cos there is nothing, NaruSaku hater by all means speaking, to *seriously* refute the notion that Naruto doesn't love Sakura in a significant romantic way. None. 2.5 years and still swinging romantic interest towards one girl only isn't going to enter the fodder section with the mere shrugging off some call "comic relief". Reading the chapters around KN4 one can't help seeing how Sakura was worried out of her wits. She can't bear to lose Naruto. He is someone who has earned her admiration on his own, who never faltered in protecting, understanding, and consoling her as best as he could, giving her feelings for Sasuke a respect I still fail to understand completely. This is why saying utter nonsense like "NaruSaku has no romantic development" is disgustingly hypocritical [you can't deny this is often said in posts by your fellow shippers]. At least I can admit I don't acknowledge NaruSaku's romantic potential cos I adapt my pairing logic to it [cos with SasuNaru I can without falling in evident fallacy or sound like I'm reading with my eyes closed].



> Like you said, its your opinion & interpretation of the scene. We'll have to agree to disagree here. Though, I think you're being a little contradictory imo. You say naruto left because of how shaken sakura is & then you also say he left on behalf of both sasuke & sakura? How do you figure that out?



I explained it in the best way that wouldn't get to SasuNaru-ish on the thread. My reasons for not taking NaruSaku seriously are heavily based on the fact I find that Naruto wants Sakura's attention for ambiguous reasons connected to Sasuke. Therefore all my reasoning is based on this consistant ambiguity in the manga, as the parallels between the henge scene and the Poal, where Sakura says she only wants Sasuke to acknowledge her, which, almost TOO clearly, suggests is the same for Naruto. I find that Naruto is repressing something towards Sasuke that is _erupting_ more and more throughout the progression of the manga. So you can't blame me for not being completely clear when SasuNaru isn't considered pairing material here.



> Its not very nice to generalize & lump people into groups. Its a little annoying, (especially, when I & a bunch of other sasusaku & naruhina-ers *do not *do any of those things you mentioned/implied in your post)



Affirming Naruto's is a mere crush and that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are srs bsns _is such_ from my point of view when I read related posts on this thread. I repeat that I can quote you to prove the so-called "generalizations" I made about whatever you want. You don't take his feelings for Sakura seriously on a romantic level period. But you don't ship SasuNaru as I do. You ship NH and SS, the epitome of undeveloped romantic relationships. I'll give NH a break though cos at least it seemed promising once.

@Spiffy- For the sig...it's just the forum mood...causing me to develop an allergic reaction to NH.
I'm glad there seems to be a more balanced approach here now...
As for SasuNaru being a ending relationship...it doesn't matter. It's not really something which can be "surpassed" whatever supposed couples take place. Even if SasuNaru isn't pairing material, over-all on this manga the bromance > romance on almost every level - emotionally and development/plot-wise.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 26, 2009)

Well, this place looks to have been on a roll last night. Anyway, I´ll just adress somethings.


Sephero said:


> NaruHina has become FAR more likely in the last few chapters than it ever was before, just because if you take a look at the overall trend and focus on the character, you'll see that the situation for the fandom is alot better off, to be fair.
> 
> But what you're talking about is mostly an assumption.
> 
> ...



As far as I know, a great majority of post here are based on assumptions, so it is quite difficult to determine what is and what is not an assumption.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Considering that the words that were uttered to Naruto, someone who has always strived for any kind of acknowledgement possible to him, an individual tha has relentlessly fought to gain the recognition of all the people that surrounded him in order to comfirm, have a significant purpose in his life, obtain validation of his existance, I can´t see how Hinata´s words cannot have had an intense impact on him.

Hinata told him that she loves him. And when you love someone, you love everything that makes that person special and that includes flaws and virtues. A person´s existance is made of those two things.

Naruto has worked hard so that a _village_ sees the good things in him in order to have his existance be accepted, something that lead him to the decision of becoming the greatest Hokage ever to be officially acknowledged as a Konoha shinobi and a member of the village(which had been already comfirmed in chapter 426 that Naruto has finally achieved the village´s care and respect)

But he never _had_ to do it for Hinata. That "shy wierdo" acknowledged him since the beginning. He *never* had to prove her anything in order to have her recognize his existance as he had to do it for his own homeland and with the girl that he "kinda liked" in the start of the series.

Hinata confessing to him feelings of love and acception that he always sought while not doing anything in the first place to even earn it in contrast to everything that he HAD to, is if not intense, powerfull.




And regarding your last sentence, I hope you have fundamental reasons or legitimate proof to back up the result you pointed out as what would be implied pairing and not just what you stated earlier, an assumption.

Don´t worry, I´ve been watching these from the beginning and I will see it till the end.



> Never said that. Just said NaruHina won't happen.



I hope that you have somewhere Kishi´s number, e-mail or know some of his editors to make such an claim, ´cause if it turns out to be untrue, it is going to be quite dissapointing.


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## Alyze (Mar 26, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Cos there is nothing, NaruSaku hater by all means speaking, to seriously refute the notion that Naruto doesn't love Sakura in a significant romantic way. None. 2.5 years and still swinging romantic interest towards one girl only isn't going to enter the fodder section with the mere shrugging off some call "comic relief". Reading the chapters around KN4 one can't help seeing how Sakura was worried out of her wits. She can't bear to lose Naruto. He is someone who has earned her admiration on his own, who never faltered in protecting, understanding, and consoling her as best as he could, giving her feelings for Sasuke a respect I still fail to understand completely. This is why saying utter nonsense like "NaruSaku has no romantic development" is disgustingly hypocritical [you can't deny this is often said in posts by your fellow shippers].



First: i see why you would say that naruto has romantic feeling for sakura and im not saying that he doesn't by supporting naruhina. imo there really wasn't anything to support the idea that he did have romantic feelings for her after the itachi returns arch. I believe that his only reason for really liking her in the first place was because she was so obsessed with sasuke, his rival. 

second: i agree that sakura was scared about losing naruto but i also think i may be for different reasons than you. Sasuke has already left her and the thought of losing a second teammate is a bit much. Naruto also became close to her because he shared her pain of losing sasuke in the first place. 

Third: i agree that naruto has always been there for her to consult her and that he has always protected her but i think its more of a brotherly kind of love than actual romantic love. I think the toleration for her feelings towards sasuke only supports this. Looking at it that way, naruto has accepted that sakura loves sasuke and is content to protect her and comfort her like a brother or best friend would. 

Overall i agree that it's impossible to write off narusaku as having no romantic development.


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## saasha (Mar 26, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Sorry I only saw your post now Seph distracted me



No, problem, I understand how hard it is to ignore him XD.



> Now maybe you're the one reading too far into my posts. After someone, who actually loathes NaruSaku, reads post after post which dismiss it with heavy speculation [imo] or what not I wonder what you guys are even trying to point out in the first place. I'm honestly too lazy to quote and underline the insinuations but I will if you make me. Cos there is nothing, NaruSaku hater by all means speaking, to *seriously* refute the notion that Naruto doesn't love Sakura in a significant romantic way. None. 2.5 years and still swinging romantic interest towards one girl only isn't going to enter the fodder section with the mere shrugging off some call "comic relief". Reading the chapters around KN4 one can't help seeing how Sakura was worried out of her wits. She can't bear to lose Naruto. He is someone who has earned her admiration on his own, who never faltered in protecting, understanding, and consoling her as best as he could, giving her feelings for Sasuke a respect I still fail to understand completely. This is why saying utter nonsense like "NaruSaku has no romantic development" is disgustingly hypocritical [you can't deny this is often said in posts by your fellow shippers]. At least I can admit I don't acknowledge NaruSaku's romantic potential cos I adapt my pairing logic to it [cos with SasuNaru I can without falling in evident fallacy or sound like I'm reading with my eyes closed].



For one thing, I dont loathe Narusaku. I adore all Team 7 interactions, narusaku included. I just dont see any romantic development in it. I dont see why that makes me or anyone else who thinks that way 'disgustingly hypocritical'. 

Thing is, neither can you nor any of the narusaku-ers concretely prove that Naruto's affections for Sakura have intensified romantically besides the saving her with everything he's got, POAL & the comic date requests. 

POAL would have been very strong evidence, if they had had any strong romantic development prior to that or if we had gotten a minor, even 5 sec inner monologue from Naruto, confirming his deep-seated romantic feelings for sakura. 





> I explained it in the best way that wouldn't get to SasuNaru-ish on the thread. My reasons for not taking NaruSaku seriously are heavily based on the fact I find that Naruto wants Sakura's attention for ambiguous reasons connected to Sasuke. Therefore all my reasoning is based on this consistant ambiguity in the manga, as the parallels between the henge scene and the Poal, where Sakura says she only wants Sasuke to acknowledge her, which, almost TOO clearly, suggests is the same for Naruto. I find that Naruto is repressing something towards Sasuke that is _erupting_ more and more throughout the progression of the manga. So you can't blame me for not being completely clear when SasuNaru isn't considered pairing material here.



Sry, it makes sense to me now. 





> Affirming Naruto's is a mere crush and that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are srs bsns _is such_ from my point of view when I read related posts on this thread. I repeat that I can quote you to prove the so-called "generalizations" I made about whatever you want. You don't take his feelings for Sakura seriously on a romantic level period. But you don't ship SasuNaru as I do. You ship NH and SS, the epitome of undeveloped romantic relationships. I'll give NH a break though cos at least it seemed promising once.



There you go, making assumptions again. I do sort of ship sasunaru (depending on my mood, just not vocal about it since sasusaku is my OTP), just dont see it becoming canon. I can see how naruto's feelings for sasuke could be considered romantic (atleast the sasunaru ship has strong evidence to support this unlike narusaku), though, I can also see how naruto's feelings could be considered strong familial love (which is what I believe naruto & sasuke feel) as seems the author's intent. 

Also, I don't ship naruhina. Sry, if it sounded like I did. I did always think it was cute & had potential but never got into it. I was neutral about it up until Hinata's confession when I started liking it some. I'm not really sure if that mean I'm shipping it now or not, since I'm not really familiar with what shipping entalis, to tell you the truth? I just felt I had to step in when Hinata was critisized unfairly for her 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 kickass confession 


 & when someone said they didnt have build up, when they clearly did. 






> I'm glad there seems to be a more balanced approach here now...
> As for SasuNaru being a ending relationship...it doesn't matter. It's not really something which can be "surpassed" whatever supposed couples take place. Even if SasuNaru isn't pairing material, over-all on this manga the bromance > romance on almost every level - emotionally and development/plot-wise.



Agreed, somewhat hesitantly XD



Sephero said:


> I'm not even a pairing fan. I don't think any of the romances are particularly engaging, but SasuSaku and NaruHina are especially terrible. Sakura chasing around Sasuke like a needy ex is pathetic, and Hinata being practically immobile in Naruto's presence is equally irritating.
> 
> I mean, you are more than entitled to feel that one conversation during the Chuunin Exams and a couple of scattered instances of fainting and blushing is better than an entire manga of two contradictory personalities playing off of eachother and growing to respect one another if you want, just like a Twitard is entitled to like Twilight, but that doesn't mean what you like is good or has had decent "build up" in the objective sense.



There seems to be something we can agree on atleast. I thought Twilight ( the novel) was pretty lame too. Strangely, I'm sorta looking forward to the movie though. I haven't even finished the 1st book yet; couldnt read past the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 edward & bella restaurant scene after he saves her from a bunch of thugs


. It so full of cliches & somehow none of them impressed me or made me swoon. Go figure.

If I recall right, you seem to like to compare sasusaku to bella & edward & I can't for the life of me think why, they're nothing alike & neither are their situations.* shrug*






> The mangas and animes you are referring to I don't read, because manga and anime sucks. I wasn't denying that these types of moments happen, only that they are bad.



Well, get used to it. It's a recurring theme in most mangas, animes, movies, novels, comics, TV series, pretty much anything you would see or read for entertainment. 





> I haven't even warmed up yet and I'm already making people cry.



I second Spiffy's response to this.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 29, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> Not that I'm trying to bring real life into the argument, but people view heartbreak differently than others do; something that seems like heartbreak to someone is different to someone else.
> 
> Yes, I think Naruto was disappointed seeing Sakura and Sasuke being like that.  But in the end, he moved beyond it and was able to solidify his bonds with Sasuke. Yes yes, I know, I'm using interpretations after making a huge honking post about them, but dammit, everyone else is doing it!



Last I checked, Naruto's bond with Sasuke didn't solidify after that.  Sasuke broke it and stomped on it, without a care in the world.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Many claim that NaruSaku is selfless.
> 
> But if it's so selfless, why would Naruto see working alone with Sakura as a stepping stone to hook up with Sakura?  You mentioned that you didn't want to believe Sakura to be taking advantage of Naruto or anything like that, yet this is blatantly Naruto taking advantage of Sakura.  At least, in the way you phrased it.
> 
> ...



Only Anti NaruSaku's see being alone with Sakura as a stepping stone.

And I never said I didn't want to believe Sakura is taking advantage.  I said that you make like she's using Naruto for her own gain.

As for Kishimoto, he's not going to have Naruto do such a thing.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Who said it wasn't common? And does that automatically mean it's what's going to be canon?
> 
> Nope.



That's _your_ opinion.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> I acknowledge that Naruto has a crush on Sakura (or at least had).  I do not think it'll grow to be anything else (is it possible?  Sure.  Likely?  Not in my opinion).  Do I believe this because it threatens SasuSaku?  No.
> 
> Do I believe that you don't wish to acknowledge the possibility of SasuSaku because of NaruSaku?  Frankly, it's none of my business.  Will I generalize that you do and say it in the debate thread?  No.  Why?  Because it's a personal issue and frankly, irrelevent and most likely untrue.



Go ahead and believe that, because everyone who knows me, knows that I never discounted SasuSaku, nor said it's not going to happen.  In fact, I think it has a good chance of happening.   But I just don't think it has a greater chance that NaruSaku.

No matter how people see it, it is still pointing at NaruSaku, because of their development.   Because you need more than just a simple confession to justify a pairing.


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 29, 2009)

con't



> That's your opinion.



So you think it'll automatically be canon because Naruto and Sakura are good friends with each other?  Just curious.

Btw, it's not an opinion. It's a fact.  Just because you're good friends with a member of the opposite sex doesn't mean you're going to end up with him/her.  Yes, it's possible to get together with your best friend, but it doesn't always happen.  In fact, lots of the time, especially at Naruto's and Sakura's age, it's discouraged for the simple fact that it can really screw up things.


*Spoiler*: _real life examples because this started as commenting on rl stuff_ 



I was together with my best friend for a while, but we realized we were too much like friends and broke it off.  But it screwed things up, and now we don't talk to each other much anymore.  That doesn't always happen (oh, goodness no, and I doubt it'd happen with Sakura and Naruto considering they're on the same team), but that's a common ending for two _teenaged_ best friends who date.

Now I have another best friend who's also a guy, but I can't picture myself being with him because he's like a brother.  I ain't ever going there.




These are just two examples of best friend dating.  It can work out exceptionally well (my parents, who've been married for 25+ years, is a good example -- then again, they weren't teenagers when they became best friends).  However, it's not always the case.  Not saying it's not possible, just not always the case.  [will not comment on any rl stuff anymore]

In a story?  It's a common theme.  But in Naruto?  Naruto hasn't had any canon evidence in Part Two of deepening his feelings for Sakura (all possible hints have to be interpreted -- there is nothing set in stone).  Sakura hasn't had any canon evidence of even getting a crush on Naruto, or feeling love.  There has definitely been a growth in friendship -- oh, HELL yeah *is a fan of Naruto/Sakura friendship* -- but there is nothing canon of her feelings growing deeper than that, just like there's nothing cononically confirmed that Sakura's love for Sasuke has faded, any sort of faded feelings have to be interpreted.

Honestly, putting it into canonically confirmed terms:

Naruto: Crush on Sakura.  Has not been confirmed to have grown anything beyond that.  Has recently learned of 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's love.  How he deals with that confession has yet to be dealt with, but it has been canonically confirmed that he's concerned for her (this does NOT mean he'll say yes, merely that he cares and hasn't forgotten).


 

Sakura: Deep friendship with Naruto.  Confirmed love for Sasuke.  Has not been confirmed if she has feelings for Naruto, and there's no confirmation of faded feelings for Sasuke (not to mention, if her feelings for Sasuke faded, it'd rob a lot of drama and conflict from their next confrontation; I don't see any sane writer willing to rob the readers of this kind of moola-making drama).  Every time Naruto does anything confirmed romantic (asking out on dates), it earns him a punch, a scream, and at one time, even a "DUMBASS".  Again, these are only what we know from confirmed canonical evidence -- these are not interpreted.  You can interpret their growing friendship as romantic, _but it has not been confirmed in any way._

Looking at it this way,



> In fact, I think it has a good chance of happening. But I just don't think it has a greater chance that NaruSaku.



Considering the fact that Sakura and Hinata both have stronger _romantic_ canon growth, I'd say they have a bigger chance than NaruSaku.

Not trying to argue SasuSaku or NaruHina, but hey, I'm just stating canon fact.  Naruto hasn't had confirmed love for Sakura, Sakura doesn't even have a confirmed crush on Naruto, but we've already gotten confirmed deeper more mature feelings from the other girls that don't have to be interpreted.



> No matter how people see it, it is still pointing at NaruSaku, because of their development. Because you need more than just a simple confession to justify a pairing.



Their development is purely platonic (again, romance has to be interpreted for it to work).  Naruto's romantic feelings have not matured into love.  If they had, they would have been confirmed by now considering he's the main character (and on this tangent -- correct me if I'm wrong, but... hasn't he not even thought about her or said her name in over 90 chapters now?).  Sakura, knowing how she wears her feelings on her sleeve, would have confirmed a crush on Naruto.  

Some argue that these feelings are buried deep inside her somewhere and have to be brought out by someone else mentioning how much she must love Naruto, but how is this a good foundation for their romantic growth?  What, Sakura can't figure out her own feelings and has to have someone else figure them out for her?  That's weak.  A lot weaker than, say, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



sacrificing your life while confessing your love,


 or trying to stop the man you love by telling him you'd do anything to stay with him even if it means betraying your village, or hinging your entire life's goal to train to become strong enough to drag back your most precious person.

Anyway, looking at what's confirmed and canon, NaruSaku is not more likely.  In all honesty, it really needs to catch up.  It's "obvious" at face-value (in that it's main girl/main guy, growth in friendship, main guy kinda likes main girl), but looking deeper into the more intricate canon details, it lacks clear-cut evidence it's going to go any further over 400 chapters into the story.  Of course you need more than a simple confession, but you also need more substance than interpreted evidence -- that's not evidence, that's an interpretation.

Also, there is more substance than a confession between 
*Spoiler*: __ 



NaruHina


 and SasuSaku.  The confessions are, however, NaruSaku's achilles heel for the simple fact that they solidify half the pairing's feelings in an instant as _love_.  Not crush.  Love.  People can say all they want that, "NaruSaku doesn't need a confession to happen!" but the fact of the matter is that, by this point, they need _canonically confirmed_ feelings first of all, and they don't even have that.  It's looking less and less likely with every chapter nowadays, it seems.

Don't get me wrong.  Once in a while, I like NaruSaku depending on my mood (yes, I'm also Anti-NaruSaku, but I'm more a "pairings peace" type -- I'd like any pairing ending, really, though with a preference for it making sense and having canon back-up/development behind it, which is something NaruSaku... currently lacks).


Aaaanyway, don't know how often I'll be posting in this thread.  Spring break's almost over, then I'll be flooded with homework again.


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## Griever (Mar 29, 2009)

Hmm i'm gonna have to go with Naruto & Sakura, reasons Naruto is not the type to give up on something he wants... that is however a vary small part of my point, i think one of the things that the Manga trys to get across is that if you keep going and Never give up the things you want will come to you.
Along with all the Development that NaruSaku have had in the series it's kinda hard to dissmis, Sakura has shown many times in the manga that she has feeling for Naruto that go deeper than friendship where as we know Naruto has feeling for Sakura, and if you take there personalitys into acount NaruSaku personalitys go togather and complament eachother. Wile Naruto and Hinata's personalitys are to different to work togather.


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## Tyrannos (Mar 29, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> If Naruto's bond with Sasuke was never solidified, then how come Naruto still wants to rescue Sasuke?



You didn't get what I said.  I said they had a bond of friendship / rivalry, then Sasuke destroyed it, and since then Naruto tried to restore it. 

If it a solid bond, then it would not have broke so easily.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Either way, this is a debate thread between NaruSaku, NaruHina, and SasuSaku not Naruto's and Sasuke's bond, so I'll leave this issue at that.



Naruto's bond has every much to do with the debate.   It establishes possible motives for Naruto and Sakura's actions, regarding Sasuke.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> It's not only anti-NaruSaku people.  I've seen plenty of posters that aren't anti-NaruSaku and still roll their eyes at the theory of Naruto making a serious move on Sakura while Sasuke's gone.



I'll just ignore those direct attacks.  

Anyhow, not even real NaruSaku fans believe that Naruto being alone means that Naruto's going to put the moves on her.   It's not in his character.

Naruto's going to remain himself, and the situation will decide their fate.  Because the ball wasn't always in Naruto's court, but Sakura's.   It's her choice alone that decides the fate of the Big 3.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> One point is this: Sakura using the PoaL to get Naruto to save Sasuke is not a good argument for NaruSaku, because he's not saving Sasuke for Sakura.  She's a _part_ of that reason, but so is the rest of Konoha, and he's especially doing it because _he_ wants to.  Sakura doesn't take advantage of this.  It's not either of them taking advantage of each other.  Either way, my comment was pointed at your theory that Naruto would be stupid to not take advantage of Sasuke's absence.
> 
> My other point is that (unless I've greatly misunderstood something) you make it sound like Naruto is going to take advantage of Sasuke being gone by making moves on Sakura, who was hurt by Sasuke leaving.



As I said it's not in Naruto's character to do such a thing.   But without Sasuke around, it gives Sakura a chance to see Naruto in a whole different light, does it not?   She's discovering a side that's far from the stupid idiot she once knew.

And what's to say she isn't falling in love with that Naruto?



Spiffy is Glory said:


> So you think it'll automatically be canon because Naruto and Sakura are good friends with each other?  Just curious.



Nope, far much more to that, than "good friends".



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Just because you're good friends with a member of the opposite sex doesn't mean you're going to end up with him/her.  Yes, it's possible to get together with your best friend, but it doesn't always happen.  In fact, lots of the time, especially at Naruto's and Sakura's age, it's discouraged for the simple fact that it can really screw up things.



I didn't say because people are "good friends", but its a fact that people who known one another for a very long time have a strong possibility of becoming a couple.

Besides, isn't SasuSaku the same?   Sakura wasn't close to Sasuke until they became a team, and she learned the real Sasuke (both good and bad).



Spiffy is Glory said:


> But in Naruto?  Naruto hasn't had any canon evidence in Part Two of deepening his feelings for Sakura (all possible hints have to be interpreted -- there is nothing set in stone).



Chapter 343 would disagree with you, even though people challenge Sakura's motives in feeding Naruto, you can't ignore Naruto scolding of Sai, in claiming, "It's romantic!"

So Naruto himself clearly still has strong feelings for Sakura.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Sakura hasn't had any canon evidence of even getting a crush on Naruto, or feeling love.  There has definitely been a growth in friendship -- oh, HELL yeah *is a fan of Naruto/Sakura friendship* -- but there is nothing canon of her feelings growing deeper than that, just like there's nothing cononically confirmed that Sakura's love for Sasuke has faded, any sort of faded feelings have to be interpreted.



Everyone would agree with you, because all pairings still haven't had any requitting.   Sasuke hasn't thought about Sakura and Naruto hasn't thought about Hinata in a romantic light.   However, with Sakura there are strong hints that she is seeing Naruto in a new light which can indeed end up with her falling in love with Naruto.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Honestly, putting it into canonically confirmed terms:
> 
> Naruto: Crush on Sakura.  Has not been confirmed to have grown anything beyond that.  Has recently learned of
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I wouldn't get too excited with that.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto isn't going to suddenly drop his years of having feelings for Sakura, soley because Hinata confessed.   At most he will state he's thankful that she's alive.   Then that will be the last we see of her for a while.






Spiffy is Glory said:


> Sakura: Deep friendship with Naruto.  Confirmed love for Sasuke.  Has not been confirmed if she has feelings for Naruto, and there's no confirmation of faded feelings for Sasuke (not to mention, if her feelings for Sasuke faded, it'd rob a lot of drama and conflict from their next confrontation; I don't see any sane writer willing to rob the readers of this kind of moola-making drama).



True, no confirmed love, but there are indeed hints that does point to her to be starting to fall in love with him.

And I highly doubt Kishimoto is going to alter his story for the sake of $$$.  He's plenty rich already.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Every time Naruto does anything confirmed romantic (asking out on dates), it earns him a punch, a scream, and at one time, even a "DUMBASS".  Again, these are only what we know from confirmed canonical evidence -- these are not interpreted.  You can interpret their growing friendship as romantic, _but it has not been confirmed in any way._



Date 1 = No punching, screaming or insulting.
Date 2 = No punching, screaming or insulting.

The Raman Scene = No punching, screaming or insulting.

Besides, this is the typical biased arguement in looking at the negatives of Sakrua being "rough" with Naruto, but never seeing the good moments between one another.

BTW, I should also point out that this is a Shonen Manga, where women tend to be rough with their women and not "lovey dovey" like in Shoujo mangas.

Come to think of it, NaruHinas love to equate NaruHina to GokuxChichi, but yet, last I recall Chichi was just as abusive with Goku as Sakura is with Naruto.  



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Considering the fact that Sakura and Hinata both have stronger _romantic_ canon growth, I'd say they have a bigger chance than NaruSaku.
> 
> Not trying to argue SasuSaku or NaruHina, but hey, I'm just stating canon fact.  Naruto hasn't had confirmed love for Sakura, Sakura doesn't even have a confirmed crush on Naruto, but we've already gotten confirmed deeper more mature feelings from the other girls that don't have to be interpreted.



This also goes with your last point.

Because they confessed doesn't mean automatic romance, especially in Shonen mangas. 

You're taking the typical Shoujo expectation that confessions lead to love, but in Shonens that's not normally the case because romance is an afterthought.  It's about action, not drama.

So don't be surprised by the end of this manga that Sakura ends up with Naruto.


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 29, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> Hmm i'm gonna have to go with Naruto & Sakura, reasons Naruto is not the type to give up on something he wants... that is however a vary small part of my point, i think one of the things that the Manga trys to get across is that if you keep going and Never give up the things you want will come to you.
> Along with all the Development that NaruSaku have had in the series it's kinda hard to dissmis, Sakura has shown many times in the manga that she has feeling for Naruto that go deeper than friendship where as we know Naruto has feeling for Sakura, and *if you take there personalitys into acount NaruSaku personalitys go togather and complament eachother. Wile Naruto and Hinata's personalitys are to different to work togather.*




*Spoiler*: __ 



In 437, Hinata commented that she is not afraid to die saving Naruto because she loves him. I don't think that she thinks their personalities are too different to work together.




As for Naruto and Sakura, it has been shown that they have different personalities, however, do you have any examples of those differences being used to complement one another? (Meaning some time where things worked out better _because_ Naruto and Sakura are different, as opposed to the manga just showing us that they are different.)

During Hinata's preliminary match with Neji, it was shown that Naruto's refusal to allow her to back down caused her to continue fighting and improve herself so that Kurenai commented, "that child... I have never seen her with eyes like that."

this


*Spoiler*: __ 



In chapter 437 Hinata says that it was Naruto's smile, his refusal to admit defeat even when beaten, that saved her.

this




In chapter 98, it was Hinata's unwavering belief in Naruto that allowed him to regain his confidence in himself. (Which was a trait that he lacked, at least on that day.)

this
(Read through page 15 here.)

Naruto goes from "acting tough because he's so frustrated from always failing" to telling her to "come watch him kick Neji's ass." Because Hinata told him that she believed in him.


----------



## Griever (Mar 29, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well what i mean by different personalitys is that thay clash, haveing different personality's is not a bad thing but to different and it get's messy, For exaple taking Naruto and Sakura's personalitys,
Sakura is a strong woman who is active like Naruto (With Naruto's stamina a girl who has stamina not to match his but a good amout would be optimal for a lasting relationship)  

Hinata on the other hand is a vary shy person who is not active nearly at all, Naruto in all likelihood would run her into the ground.. this pairing is the least desirable in the series based on compatibility of personalitys. (I just can't see Naruto and Hinata because of the difference in personality, and development of characters) it's not a good match in my opinion..


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 29, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> Well what i mean by different personalitys is that thay clash, haveing different personality's is not a bad thing but to different and it get's messy, For exaple taking Naruto and Sakura's personalitys,
> Sakura is a strong woman who is active like Naruto (With Naruto's stamina a girl who has stamina not to match his but a good amout would be optimal for a lasting relationship)
> 
> *Hinata on the other hand is a vary shy person who is not active nearly at all*, Naruto in all likelihood would run her into the ground.. this pairing is the least desirable in the series based on compatibility of personalitys. (I just can't see Naruto and Hinata because of the difference in personality, and development of characters) it's not a good match in my opinion..



Serious question: how is Hinata barely active yet Sakura is active? Hinata is a kunoichi and a Chuunin, like Sakura.


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## Griever (Mar 29, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Serious question: how is Hinata barely active yet Sakura is active? Hinata is a kunoichi and a Chuunin, like Sakura.



What i mean is stamina wise, i don't mean active as in a shinobi takeing missions... ya know?.


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## Griever (Mar 29, 2009)

Hmm i don't know to much about "leafninja" is the info from the "Data book" that Kishi writes?.

anyways there personalitys are the main focuse here i don't think that Hinata and Naruto have compatible in the least.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 29, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> Hmm i don't know to much about "leafninja" is the info from the "Data book" that Kishi writes?.
> 
> anyways there personalitys are the main focuse here i don't think that Hinata and Naruto have compatible in the least.



I think that the info was from the databook. There was no citation though, so I can't be certain.

Well, I've already said why I think that their personalities complement each other a couple of posts ago. Naruto is Hinata's motivation, and Hinata showed that she is able to inspire Naruto, as demonstrated by her "proud failure" speech Naruto when he was doubting himself before his fight with Neji. On this point, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, at least for the moment, since I can't think of any other scenes to try to show you right now.

Also, a couple of posts ago, I asked if you had evidence of where the difference between Sakura and Naruto's personalities is used to better the situation in the manga, as opposed to the two of them simply possessing different personalities. In the interests of keeping the debate alive, could you please provide some scenes about this?


----------



## Griever (Mar 29, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> I think that the info was from the databook. There was no citation though, so I can't be certain.
> 
> Well, I've already said why I think that their personalities complement each other a couple of posts ago. Naruto is Hinata's motivation, and Hinata showed that she is able to inspire Naruto, as demonstrated by her "proud failure" speech Naruto when he was doubting himself before his fight with Neji. On this point, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, at least for the moment, since I can't think of any other scenes to try to show you right now.
> 
> Also, a couple of posts ago, I asked if you had evidence of where the difference between Sakura and Naruto's personalities is used to better the situation in the manga, as opposed to the two of them simply possessing different personalities. In the interests of keeping the debate alive, could you please provide some scenes about this?





*Spoiler*: __ 



But from the top part of you post. your only looking at it from Hinata's point Sakura has been shown motivate Naruto alot more than Hinata 

about Naruto and Sakura's personalitys.

Naruto is a carefree kinda Guy and Sakura is the type to worry but she is also strict which is vary good for keeping Naruto focused an exaple here.

Bunta barely dodges

this is an examle of Sakura's care for Naruto.

Link removed

In that link you can tell that Sakura wanted to do something, it is in my opinion that she wanted to take the Bijuu out of Naruto before knowing that it would kill him.

i don't really have any links that show that there personalitys complament eachother but it is seen in the manga not literaly but there personality type... like how thay go togather and what makes them a good match. Like Sakura's worry over Naruto. For someone like Naruto it is good to have someone to keep him in line Hinata would just stand there and watch Sakura would do something about it.
do you see where i'm comming from?.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 29, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> But from the top part of you post. your only looking at it from Hinata's point Sakura has been shown motivate Naruto alot more than Hinata



Yes, I was looking at Hinata in the top part of my post. Naruto is her key motivation, as she said in chapter 437; there are going to be a lot more examples of how this affects her than how she affects Naruto. However, my third example, out of three, was of how Hinata has helped Naruto.

Can you please provide an example of where Sakura in particular motivates Naruto? (By Sakura in particular, I mean that it is shown that it is only Sakura that is motivating him, and not Sakura and Sasuke at the same time.)



> about Naruto and Sakura's personalitys.
> 
> Naruto is a carefree kinda Guy and Sakura is the type to worry but she is also strict which is vary good for keeping Naruto focused an exaple here.
> 
> Bunta barely dodges



That scene was of her punching the ground during the redo of the bell training. It was not an example of her keeping Naruto focused; he was commenting that she has improved to the point where, if she tries, her punches _can_ kill him. The previous panels of that chapter had also shown that Naruto was already plenty focused on that fight _before_ Sakura's demonstration of her strength.



> this is an examle of Sakura's care for Naruto.
> 
> incredibly bright
> 
> In that link you can tell that Sakura wanted to do something, it is in my opinion that she wanted to take the Bijuu out of Naruto before knowing that it would kill him.



This is a scene that we'll just have to agree to disagree on, I guess. You see romantic implications; I see that she's concerned for her teammate and close friend because she's just heard that people like him have been used as human weapons before and doesn't want to see that happen to Naruto. I do agree with you that she was obviously concerned for him, and that she might have wanted to do something, but I don't see how that concern has to be romantic.



> i don't really have any links that show that there personalitys complament eachother but it is seen in the manga not literaly but there personality type... like how thay go togather and what makes them a good match. Like Sakura's worry over Naruto. For someone like Naruto it is good to have someone to keep him in line Hinata would just stand there and watch Sakura would do something about it.
> do you see where i'm comming from?.[/SPOILER]



I really do see where you're coming from, but I disagree with it. Hinata does not just stand there when Naruto is out of line. What the training field scene demonstrates is that, when she disagrees with him, she stands up for her opinions. It was not gently, I admit, but she was still contradicting him. She also did it in such a way that she pointed out his strengths as well. When Sakura keeps Naruto in line, she hits him. That has the effect of controlling Naruto through fear, which I do not consider to be a very positive basis for a relationship.

Also, Sakura's punches are not shown to have a lasting or important effect on Naruto. For example, in chapter 245, Naruto goes to demonstrate his "new perverted jutsu", Sakura punches him, Naruto reacts to the initial pain, and then all evidence of it has vanished a couple of panels later. He doesn't stop being perverted because it upsets Sakura, or because her control has inspired him to end those tendencies; 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 in fact he shows the same interest in chapter 347 when Konohamaru demonstrates the Double Knockout Girls technique.




When Hinata cheered Naruto up before his fight with Neji, it had the effect that he wanted to know if she in particular was watching during chapter 105 after he beat Neji. (The scene of Hinata and Naruto's interaction had occurred seven chapters prior to this in chapter 98.) This shows that he remembered the interaction they had had and that his invitation (for lack of a better word) for her to watch his match was more than just the casual "watch me kick Character X's ass" gloating that Naruto is so prone to do.


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Can you please provide an example of where Sakura in particular motivates Naruto? (By Sakura in particular, I mean that it is shown that it is only Sakura that is motivating him, and not Sakura and Sasuke at the same time.)


Databook



> -The Sakura who was constantly encouraged by Naruto is now the one who gives him strength. Her mental growth is apparent.





> That has the effect of controlling Naruto through fear, which I do not consider to be a very positive basis for a relationship.




I guess chichixGoku shouldnt have happened then.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 29, 2009)

All women are scary in the end in order to whip their guys into shape..its not necessarily an uncommon trait in that regard...


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## Griever (Mar 29, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Yes, I was looking at Hinata in the top part of my post. Naruto is her key motivation, as she said in chapter 437; there are going to be a lot more examples of how this affects her than how she affects Naruto. However, my third example, out of three, was of how Hinata has helped Naruto.
> 
> Can you please provide an example of where Sakura in particular motivates Naruto? (By Sakura in particular, I mean that it is shown that it is only Sakura that is motivating him, and not Sakura and Sasuke at the same time.)
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




This is one that i consider, however you are really makeing this heard since the manga is all about Sakura, Naruto and Sasuke it's really hard to find a scen of emotional distress that does not have Sasuke involved in someway or another.

Link removed

and also when Gaara was going to kill Sakura with his hand of sand, Sasuke played a vary little role in that it was all to save Sakura, i mean Sasuke's words to Naruto where only "I don't want to lose anyone close to me again" i think Sakura's life being indanger was more of a motivation that those words.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 29, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My apologies for the difficulty. If this helps at all, what I am asking for is a scene where it is clear that it is indeed Sakura having the influence on him, and not simply Team Seven as a whole. I added the specification to not include Sasuke because in a great many scenes, Sakura is mentioned as Naruto's motivation, but while being mentioned she is not separated from Sasuke and from the entity of Team Seven; thus those scenes are not speaking of Sakura's influence so much as Team Seven's influence.

In the scene you provided, it really didn't seem to me like Sakura's words had that great of an effect on Naruto. He didn't get off of the ground until after Sai had spoken, indicating that Sai motivated Naruto there as well as Sakura. I do agree that Sakura was definitely a motivation there, just not the only motivation.

Gaara going to kill Sakura... yes, Sakura did, undeniably, have the biggest influence on him there. It wasn't through any act of her own though, and I think we're still debating about personality motivating Naruto. (I'm honestly not sure though... feel free to disregard this if we're not.) Sakura was a motivation because she was going to _die_ if he didn't save her, and because Naruto cares about her and doesn't want that to happen. But the only thing that she actively did during this fight was stand as a human shield in front of Sasuke; it wasn't that she was consciously trying to motivate him and succeeding in doing so.

@Inuhanyou:

Despite this, Sakura's actions towards Naruto have not had a very large effect on whipping him into shape. He stops whatever action was offending her at that time, but is then seen doing similar actions later on in the manga while in her presence. (Such as his interest in perverted techniques.)

@Tenrol:

Do you happen to have a scan or link to that databook? I still haven't had much luck finding any useful results off of Google...

Nowhere in my post did I mention GokuxChichi. I've never seen Dragonball, so I have no opinions on its pairings, and therefore I can't tell you if a given pair should have happened or not.


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> @Tenrol:
> 
> Do you happen to have a scan or link to that databook? I still haven't had much luck finding any useful results off of Google...



Didn't i gave a link to you before? Anyway no need for google it's here on Naruto fan.

Sakura's translation by gottheim

*Spoiler*: __ 



Main text

Page 1

There's a saying: "Turning hardship and grief into nourishment is what makes a sakura, a cherry tree's flower, so gorgeous". Indeed, Haruno Sakura, a kunoichi from Konoha grew up beautifully out of the sorrows she's experienced. The death of a close one (tn: Duh?!), then the parting of ways with the person she loved... But whenever she was hurt, she faced forward, and tearfully vowed to become stronger (tn: This sentence confused the hell outta me. I cannnot vouch for its accuracy). Those sorrows engraved into her heart, her predispositions as a shinobi will certainly prove even more fruitful, as she's obtained apprencticeship under Tsunade, the legendary kunoichi. The day when the entrancingly graceful, fully bloomed sakura flower dances upon the battleground is close at hand!

Page 2

[Medical Ninjutsu]
Learning medical ninjutsu is a gruesomely difficult task, for in addition to pinpoint chakra control abilities, it requires an extensive amount of knowledge and perseverance. But Sakura, blessed with such dispositions, mastered it at a speed that amazed even Tsunade. She grew into a medical ninja prominent even in the whole village.

[Super-Strength]
Insanely strong: not exactly a qualification a teenage girl would be happy about, but contrary to the larger-than-life appearances, it's actually a ninjutsu that requires extreme accuracy in chakra control. One kneads a maximal amount of chakra inside their body, and concentrates it all into their fist in an instant! When one uses super-strength, courage and the ability to grasp the situation are even more indispensable. Delicacy, attention, and bravery: you could say that jutsu is a compilation of womanly qualities.

[Evasion Skills]
"A medical ninja musn't die by any means", says Tsunade. Incidentally, the fate of surviving while being constantly surrounded by death is more painful to a shinobi than death itself: those words of her master echo loudly into her heart... And because she's aware of her heavy responsibility, Sakura starts to build up her evasion skills! Not because her master frightens her. And certainly not to run away either. To save her many friends even all by herself, to leave a great hope behind for the future at least once, Sakura avoids daggers in a dodging ballet with definite resolve in her heart...!!

[Guts]
Medical ninjutsu smashes even stone and heals just about any wound. However, even with such great cards in hand, whether it revives or kills ultimately depends on the user. Losing the ability to use it freely in real battle eventually turns it into a dead weight. Sakura has the means to use her cards efficiently. A spirit that remains imperturbable even in critical situations... To give things a name, she has guts!

Page 3

[Fighting Spirit]
Sakura had a fighting spirit and a strong heart before, but studying under Tsunade made these traits even more obvious in her. This might have to do with both her master's influence, and her wish to rescue Naruto and Sasuke, among others. "I'll protect the two of them": as long as that vow remains, Sakura's spirit will never break!

[A Woman's Heart and a Short Temper]
"A woman's heart is a complicated thing". A saying the many people who've been in contact with Sakura must know by heart. Delicacy and boldness, shyness and anger, kindness and agression. Predicting what her ever-changing state of mind will jump to next is distressingly difficult. "Gotta stop fooling around in front of Sakura-chan", swears Naruto. "Dang it, she's grown into a fairly good second coming of Tsunade...", sighs Jiraiya.

[Tsunade]
She'd discovered and gotten the basics of her chakra control abilities down thanks to Kakashi, and upon acquiring a master the likes of Tsunade, those abilities flourished in a heartbeat! While Tsunade is happy her successor has appeared, Sakura is mustering a sense of respect and utmost confidence towards her master. 

[Sai]
Sakura entertains complex feelings towards Sai, who was assigned to Team Kakashi as a replacement for Sasuke. Acknowledging Sai as a team member means acknowledging Sasuke's absence. But following Sai's evolution, Sakura learned how to bond with him as well.

[naruto]
In her childhood, Sasuke was the object of her yearning, then loving feelings. Naruto was just that annoyance that would force itself between Sasuke and her, and ruin the day in some fashion. But looking back on the past after a few missions handled together, Sakura suddenly realized. In her painful moments, when she'd abandoned even the will to live, the one who'd protect her and encourage her was Naruto, the supposedly annoying one... What feelings does she harbor towards Naruto?... As of now, Sakura hasn't found the answer.

Page 4

[Promise]
To bring back the fleeting, ordinary life that crumbled away upon Sasuke's desertion from the village... And to keep her friends out of harm's way. The day she knocked on Tsunade's door is the day she bid farewell to the Sakura who could do nothing but cry during "that night".

[Resolve]
Sakura knows that in the shinobi world, one must pay a suitable compensation to obtain something. Despite this, if she could recover Sasuke... and the daily life that were lost, Sakura would gladly make any sacrifice. And that resolve gives Sakura the strength to open a way towards the future.

Captions

Page 1

-I'll become strong too, you won't be alone

-Having surmounted and fed off a great amount of grief, the battleground's cherry blossom now blooms profusely!

Page 2

-The fighting spirit her mentor passed down upon her at heart, kunoichi Sakura runs onto the frontline!!

Page 3

-Just how many faces does a woman have?! They're just as multiple as the emotional facets she hides under her chest.

-New allies, a new master. And budding new feelings...?!

Page 4

-Earnestly wishing "the old days" back, she chases after him!!

Picture comments

Page 1

-She wants to know the truth... Her ardor pushes her to investigate things such as Akatsuki and the bijuu.

-Day after day of strict training under Tsunade give Sakura confidence in herself.

-Originally, Sakura's a supporting type, but she displays growth in taijutsu, enough to endorse an offensive position.

-Warmhearted and romantic on the one hand, down-to-earth to the point of callousness on the other...

Page 2

-Using medical ninjutsu in battle requires one to be extremely skilled in the art.

-Along with her explanation about the importance of dodging skills, Tsunade puts her disciple through intensive training...!

-Handling herself with wonderful ease, she dodges attacks even from a hundred of puppets!!

-(The bottom picture that expands over p.138 & p.139)Even Hiruko, in which Sasori, the master craftsman as they call him, had great confidence, she crushed in one blow!

-"Bravery" is not the same as recklessness. It's the ability to put a rational judgment into action.

Page 3

-Because of her feelings for her friends, and her confidence in her master, Sakura smiles boldly, even in a critical situation.

-Does her heart beat unexpectedly fast before the unforeseen, rapid growth of her childhood friend...?

-The next second, her punch flies in the blink of an eye and hits him! Is Naruto a major pain in her neck......?!

-Perhaps because Tsunade put her through hell while training her, Sakura herself shows absolute obedience to her!

-Sakura is also the one who immediately found out about Sai's complex personality.

-Her various memories with Naruto float like like a night fog* across her mind...

-Moved as she is by Naruto's devotion, tears are flowing down her cheeks.

Page 4

-She couldn't stop Sasuke and Naruto was harmed as a result, a past that now shapes her present.

-The Sakura who was constantly encouraged by Naruto is now the one who gives him strength. Her mental growth is apparent.

-Upon thinking about Sasuke, regret tightly grips her heart, and strength invades it at the same time! 




funny btw that it say Sasuke was the boy she had loving feelings for but only in her childhood


Anyway here the link for epic' fic lists 



> Nowhere in my post did I mention GokuxChichi. I've never seen Dragonball, so I have no opinions on its pairings, and therefore I can't tell you if a given pair should have happened or not.



No but you mentionned narusaku isn't positive because naturo fear Sakura. In dragon ball Chichi is the Goku person fear the most doesn't change the fact that they are together. Anyway it's always like that in shounen most of the time.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> I guess chichixGoku shouldnt have happened then.




*Spoiler*: __ 



The difference with Chichi and Goku is that Goku gets his way more often than not.  Chichi yells and uses her frying pan, but when it boils down to it she listens to Goku's side too.
It's a give and take between them, not one completely steamrolling the other, not one being a doormat.





For Sakura's data book entry, it's clear that her regret at not being able to do anything when Sasuke left and her determination to bring him back have not faded.  Sasuke was and still is her goal.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see any difference.





> For Sakura's data book entry, it's clear that her regret at not being able to do anything when Sasuke left and her determination to bring him back have not faded.  Sasuke was and still is her goal.




Yes he is an important friend after all.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> I don't see any difference.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura steamrolls over Naruto, while he just takes it like a doormat.
In fact the only ones to give back as bad as they get from Sakura are Sasuke and Konohamaru.











> Yes he is an important friend after all.





> ...then the parting of ways with the person she loved...
> ...Acknowledging Sai as a team member means acknowledging Sasuke's absence...
> ...To bring back the fleeting, ordinary life that crumbled away upon Sasuke's desertion from the village...
> ...if she could recover Sasuke... and the daily life that were lost, Sakura would gladly make any sacrifice....
> ...Upon thinking about Sasuke, regret tightly grips her heart, and strength invades it at the same time! ...



Sasuke is her goal.  He is an important person to her, like Naruto and Lee and Tsunade and others- but Sasuke is the one she strives for.  He's the one she's willing to do anything for to give up anything for.


----------



## Krix (Mar 29, 2009)

I can't believe I'm getting myself into this...



> ...then the parting of ways with the person she* loved*...


 
That just speaks for itself.  She lov*ed *him, and she's pretty much 'over him' - romantically. He's an important person to her, yes, but now all she wants is *TEAM 7 *to be back to normal. She wants an ORDINARY life again. 



moonjump05 said:


> Sasuke is her goal.  He is an important person to her, like Naruto and Lee and Tsunade and others- but Sasuke is the one she strives for.  He's the one she's willing to do anything for to give up anything for.



 Yes, she strives for him because she wants to go back to the *OLD DAYS.*
That whole thing from the DB is basically saying how she wants it all to go back to normal.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well NAruto doesn't mind anyway.



It's the dynamic between the two that's lacking.  If you want to argue typical shounen slap/kiss dynamics, then Naruto and Sakura don't have it.






> Yeah the quote you posted is only proving she's chasing him for her old daily life. It's nothing new since she'll do anything for team 7.



It's certainly part of it- she brought it up during chapter 181 as well.  But she also said something else then.

, his biggest push and inspiration remains Sakura

"I...love you with all my heart!...I would do anything for you!"

Her old daily life is centered around _Sasuke being there_.  She wants that back and she wants _him _back.  
The rest is not enough to satisfy her.  Even though she has friends and family she would still be lonely without Sasuke.



> That just speaks for itself.  She loved him, and she's pretty much 'over him' - romantically. He's an important person to her, yes, but now all she wants is TEAM 7 to be back to normal. She wants an ORDINARY life again.



Since when is she over him?


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It's certainly part of it- she brought it up during chapter 181 as well.  But she also said something else then.
> 
> , his biggest push and inspiration remains Sakura
> 
> ...




When she said she'll be lonely without him it wasn't true because right after she said that Sasuke had a flashback of her with Naruto. She was just desperate.


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## Krix (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It's certainly part of it- she brought it up during chapter 181 as well.  But she also said something else then.
> 
> , his biggest push and inspiration remains Sakura
> 
> ...



Her whole life doesn't revolve around Sasuke.  The thing is, *Naruto's *feelings affect Sakura as well. 

When Naruto went kyubbi, she wanted to save Sasuke for him.

She wants him back because she *cares *about him, and obviously it tears Naruto apart. To care for someone doesn't meant you have to love them.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> When she said she'll be lonely without him it wasn't true because right after she said that Sasuke had a flashback of her with Naruto. She was just being desperate.



So Sakura was lying?  
And since when does Sasuke's flashback negate her confession?



Dance Hime ♡ said:


> Her whole life doesn't revolve around Sasuke.  The thing is, *Naruto's *feelings affect Sakura as well.
> 
> When Naruto went kyubbi, she wanted to save Sasuke for him.
> 
> She wants him back because she *cares *about him, and obviously it tears Naruto apart. *To care for someone doesn't meant you have to love them*.



Her main goals revolve around Sasuke, and Naruto's feelings do affect her- she isn't a heartless bitch.  But quite frankly she wants Sasuke back for herself mainly.
Naruto's pain isn't enough to deter her from that goal, only enough to make her want to contribute more.
The bolded part I agree on.  Sakura said she loves Sasuke.  Sakura cares about Naruto- it doesn't mean that she's in love with him.


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 29, 2009)

Dance Hime ♡ said:


> Her whole life doesn't revolve around Sasuke.  The thing is, *Naruto's *feelings affect Sakura as well.
> 
> When Naruto went kyubbi, she wanted to save Sasuke for him.
> 
> She wants him back because she *cares *about him, and obviously it tears Naruto apart. *To care for someone doesn't meant you have to love them.*



Exactly.  So I guess that means that Sakura can care about Naruto and not be in love with him! 

The thing is, we have no idea whether Sakura still loves Sasuke or not.  It's something has yet to be addressed.  Until said otherwise, I'm gonna believe that she still feels the same way towards him.  Hinata's feelings for Naruto never changed over the timeskip, so why should Sakura's for Sasuke?

As long as we're mentioning databooks, let me just say this.  The databooks kinda works against NaruSaku from Naruto's side.  It never mentions anywhere in them about his feelings for Sakura.  However, in the relationship chart, there's no longer an arrow from Naruto to Sakura.  While for Sakura, there's still an arrow from her to Sasuke that says "like", which is something that has yet to change from any of the previous databooks.


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## JERITROLL (Mar 29, 2009)

*sigh*, let's just take the databook out of context and ignore the bulk of it, shall we? No offense meant, but I'm sorry, if that's what Kishi was trying to say, we'd see more of it in the Manga. So far, that just isn't happening.

If we're going to go off and do that, then we could take the height chart from the Databook and say that it screams NaruSaku 'cause of Sakura's pose and Naruto's arm location.

I hope my point has been made clear. Besides, the databook clearly states that Sakura doesn't know what her feelings are anymore.

But that really doesn't matter, as the books don't count. What does is the Manga, and until I see Kishi blatantly show something more from Sakura, I just can't see her still liking Sasuke. Especially after that close call with the sword XD.


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> So Sakura was lying?
> And since when does Sasuke's flashback negate her confession?



No she was desperate. Sasuke's flashback was there just to prove what she just said doesn't make any sense. either way even the databook said she has feelings for Sasuke but only in her childhood. not now. She's bringing him back because he's an important friend.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> *sigh*, let's just take the databook out of context and ignore the bulk of it, shall we? No offense meant, but I'm sorry, if that's what Kishi was trying to say, we'd see more of it in the Manga. So far, that just isn't happening.
> 
> If we're going to go off and do that, then we could take the height chart from the Databook and say that it screams NaruSaku 'cause of Sakura's pose and Naruto's arm location.
> 
> ...



And until Kishi shows something more from Sakura, I can't see her changing romantic feelings for Naruto. 



> No she was desperate. Sasuke's flashback was there just to prove what she just said doesn't make any sense. either way even the databook said she has feelings for Sasuke but only in her childhood. not now. She's bringing him back because he's an important friend



Actually Sasuke's flashback seems to echo Sakura's words... that without the two of them he would be lonely as well.
And the one quote you are using for Sakura's feelings is about how she used to think Naruto was screwing up the romance between her and Sasuke.  Something that happened in their childhood.


----------



## Crimson Cloak (Mar 29, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> *sigh*, let's just take the databook out of context and ignore the bulk of it, shall we? No offense meant, but I'm sorry, if that's what Kishi was trying to say, we'd see more of it in the Manga. So far, that just isn't happening.
> 
> If we're going to go off and do that, then we could take the height chart from the Databook and say that it screams NaruSaku 'cause of Sakura's pose and Naruto's arm location.
> 
> ...



Ah, yes.  I still remember the days when people would put down the databooks, when it said that Hinata was in love with Naruto.  "It's only admiration!" is what they would say.  
*Spoiler*: __ 



But now looky here.  She confessed to Naruto that she's loved him all this time!  So much for it just being "admiration."

Mind telling me on how that height chart proves your point?  It's a height chart.  Meant for showing the height differences between the characters.  Naruto and Sakura are teammates, so obviously they'd be next to each other.



Tenrol said:


> No she was desperate. Sasuke's flashback was there just to prove what she just said doesn't make any sense. either way even the databook said she has feelings for Sasuke but only in her childhood. not now. She's bringing him back because he's an important friend.



Where does it say that her love for Sasuke was only in her childhood?


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Actually Sasuke's flashback seems to echo Sakura's words... that without the two of them he would be lonely as well.
> And the one quote you are using for Sakura's feelings is about how she used to think Naruto was screwing up the romance between her and Sasuke.  Something that happened in their childhood.



it doesn't talk about Naruto in that sentence.




> In her childhood, Sasuke was the object of her yearning, then loving feelings.



in her childhood SAsuke was the object of loving feelings. it isn't now.

Another sentence



> then the parting of ways with the person she loved



yes she loved him. not loves him now.


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> in her childhood SAsuke was the object of loving feelings. it isn't now.



Thanks for pointing out the obvious.  Now where does it say that she doesn't still love him now?


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> Thanks for pointing out the obvious.  Now where does it say that she doesn't still love him now?




if you did read the quote correctly you'll see that it said SAsuke was the boy she had loving feelings for. *not has*  She doesn't love him anymore. she just loved him.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> it doesn't talk about Naruto in that sentence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> In her childhood, Sasuke was the object of her yearning, then loving feelings. Naruto was just that annoyance that would force itself between Sasuke and her, and ruin the day in some fashion.





10 char limit


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> if you did read the quote correctly you'll see that it said SAsuke was the boy she had loving feelings for. *not has*  She doesn't love him anymore. she just loved him.



And yet, the relationship chart says otherwise.  Until it's stated in the manga that she no longer has feelings for him, I'm not gonna be entirely convinced that she no longer does.


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> > In her childhood, Sasuke was the object of her yearning, then loving feelings. Naruto was just that annoyance that would force itself between Sasuke and her, and ruin the day in some fashion./QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JERITROLL (Mar 29, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> Mind telling me on how that height chart proves your point?  It's a height chart.  Meant for showing the height differences between the characters.  Naruto and Sakura are teammates, so obviously they'd be next to each other.



Look at it again, Naruto's outstretched arm, Sakura's positioning, etc, easy fodder, no?

As for your comments on the books, they contradict each other enough to make it still a bad idea to rely on them for anything more than power levels.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Yes the sentence after. See? in her childhood Sakura had loving feelings for Sasuke but she doesn't now. In her child hood Naruto was just that annoyance he isn't now.



It says nothing that her feelings towards Sasuke have changed.  The sentence is in the past tense- their childhood- to reflect on the way she has come to appreciate and value Naruto currently.  It does nothing to downplay her feelings for Sasuke.
And the rest of her profile goes on about how Sasuke is still her goal and such.


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It says nothing that her feelings towards Sasuke have changed.  The sentence is in the past tense- their childhood- to reflect on the way she has come to appreciate and value Naruto currently.  It does nothing to downplay her feelings for Sasuke.
> And the rest of her profile goes on about how Sasuke is still her goal and such.



Exactly Sasuke is just past. She moved on.


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Exactly Sasuke is just past. She moved on.



Did it say she moved on?  No?  Well then, there ya have it.


----------



## Krix (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Her main goals revolve around Sasuke, and Naruto's feelings do affect her- she isn't a heartless bitch.  But quite frankly she wants Sasuke back for herself mainly.
> Naruto's pain isn't enough to deter her from that goal, only enough to make her want to contribute more.
> The bolded part I agree on.  Sakura said she loves Sasuke.  Sakura cares about Naruto- it doesn't mean that she's in love with him.



She said she loves Sasuke in pt 1. And her 'love' for him was selfish, and immature. 

I don't ship NaruSaku.  I guess I should have made that clear. I just prefer it over SS/NH.

She DOESNT want Sasuke back for herself. That would be horribly selfish. Sasuke gone is tearing Naruto apart - Doesn't she want him back so she could relive those days where Naruto and _everyone_ was happy?






starkiller88 said:


> Exactly.  So I guess that means that Sakura can care about Naruto and not be in love with him!
> 
> The thing is, we have no idea whether Sakura still loves Sasuke or not.  It's something has yet to be addressed.  Until said otherwise, I'm gonna believe that she still feels the same way towards him.  Hinata's feelings for Naruto never changed over the timeskip, so why should Sakura's for Sasuke?
> 
> As long as we're mentioning databooks, let me just say this.  The databooks kinda works against NaruSaku from Naruto's side.  It never mentions anywhere in them about his feelings for Sakura.  However, in the relationship chart, there's no longer an arrow from Naruto to Sakura.  While for Sakura, there's still an arrow from her to Sasuke that says "like", which is something that has yet to change from any of the previous databooks.



I don't 'ship' NaruSaku. But I guess I do prefer it over SS/NH.  

DB - It said: 





> ...Then parting with ways with the one she *loved*...



She used to love him.  Past tense. It indeed did change.

Sakura's feelings _should _ for Sasuke because he made it blantly obvious he wasn't interested in her. (Guys feelings matter too, you know). You don't say 'thank you' after someone confesses to you.

*Girl*: I.. love you with all my heart!
*Boy*: Thank you. 

That doesn't fit, does it?

Sasuke made her anxious, made her cry at some parts, and even slapped her hand away. Relationships should never work like that.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Exactly Sasuke is just past. She moved on.



Did you not read my post?  



			
				me said:
			
		

> The sentence is in the past tense- their childhood- to reflect on the way she has come to appreciate and value Naruto currently.  It does nothing to downplay her feelings for Sasuke.
> And the rest of her profile goes on about how Sasuke is still her goal and such.



There is nothing there to say she has moved on from Sasuke.   There's a lot there to show what she felt at the PaoL- that Naruto's sole purpose _wasn't _to get in the way of her and the Sauce.



> She said she loves Sasuke in pt 1. And her 'love' for him was selfish, and immature.



I'll disagree.  It certainly started out that way, but by the end of Part 1?  No way.



> She DOESNT want Sasuke back for herself. That would be horribly selfish. Sasuke gone is tearing Naruto apart - Doesn't she want him back so she could relive those days where Naruto and everyone was happy?



She does want him back for herself.  Just like Naruto wants him back for himself.  Him being gone does tear up Sakura too, she just doesn't have a tailed beast in her to manifest it the same way, instead we get her crying over a picture with a crescent moon in the background.
They also want him back as part of Team 7.



> Sasuke made her anxious, made her cry at some parts, and even slapped her hand away. Relationships should never work like that.



Sasuke did worse to Naruto, so did Sakura for that matter.


----------



## Crimson Cloak (Mar 29, 2009)

Dance Hime ♡ said:


> She said she loves Sasuke in pt 1. And her 'love' for him was selfish, and immature.
> 
> I don't ship NaruSaku.  I guess I should have made that clear. I just prefer it over SS/NH.
> 
> She DOESNT want Sasuke back for herself. That would be horribly selfish. Sasuke gone is tearing Naruto apart - Doesn't she want him back so she could relive those days where Naruto and _everyone_ was happy?



I'm sure she does.  But she also wants Sasuke back for herself as well.  It's not like the whole reason for her chasing after Sasuke is for Naruto.  In fact, it's been shown more of her wanting Sasuke back for herself.  Why?  Because she cares about him a great deal.  Like how Naruto wants Sasuke back because _HE_ wants him back.




> I don't 'ship' NaruSaku. But I guess I do prefer it over SS/NH.
> 
> DB - It said:
> 
> ...



How many times do I have to repeat this?  I don't freakin give a crap if it was past tense or not.  It talked about her feelings in her childhood, sure.  But it doesn't mention how she feels _NOW._  If it doesn't say her feelings have changed, then I'm gonna assume that they haven't changed.

You make it sound like Sasuke will never change or something.  Right now Sasuke can't have a relationship with anybody as is.  However, if he was to change for the better, what then?


----------



## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Did you not read my post?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing there to say she has moved on from Sasuke.   There's a lot there to show what she felt at the PaoL- that Naruto's sole purpose _wasn't _to get in the way of her and the Sauce.



Well the databook say she loved him. btw, it also say Sasuke was the boy she had feelings for. Why doesn't it talk about her feelings in present? i think she moved on.



> I'll disagree.  It certainly started out that way, but by the end of Part 1?  No way.



proof please.



> She does want him back for herself.  Just like Naruto wants him back for himself.  Him being gone does tear up Sakura too, she just doesn't have a tailed beast in her to manifest it the same way, instead we get her crying over a picture with a crescent moon in the background.
> They also want him back as part of Team 7.




lol? Naruto is also doing it for Sakura or else there woudnt be any Poal.[/QUOTE]


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## Crimson Cloak (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well the databook say she loved him. btw, it also say Sasuke was the boy she had feelings for. Why doesn't it talk about her feelings in present? Could it be her feelings for Sasuke was just past?



Or maybe, *gasp* Kishi just wants to screw with our heads, so that we'd be debating like crazy for years on end!  Her feelings for Sasuke are unconfirmed, and her feelings for Naruto are unconfirmed.  If it said that she still loved Sasuke, then we wouldn't even need to debate, now would we?



> proof please. Even her confession was selfish.



I must not be keeping up with the times or something.  Since when was love not selfish?  Wanting to be with someone so bad, that you'd be willing to give up everything, just to have them to yourself? 



> lol? Naruto is also doing it for Sakura or else there woudnt be any Poal.



Yep.  A promise that he hasn't made a single reference to since Part 2 began.  Naruto already had a very strong desire to bring Sasuke back without Sakura's pleading.  The PoaL just merely gave him another reason.


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## Krix (Mar 29, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> I'm sure she does.  But she also wants Sasuke back for herself as well.  It's not like the whole reason for her chasing after Sasuke is for Naruto.  In fact, it's been shown more of her wanting Sasuke back for herself.  Why?  Because she cares about him a great deal.  Like how Naruto wants Sasuke back because _HE_ wants him back.




I'll agree with this for the most part.



> How many times do I have to repeat this?  I don't freakin give a crap if it was past tense or not.  It talked about her feelings in her childhood, sure.  But it doesn't mention how she feels _NOW._  If it doesn't say her feelings have changed, then I'm gonna assume that they haven't changed.
> 
> You make it sound like Sasuke will never change or something.  Right now Sasuke can't have a relationship with anybody as is.  However, if he was to change for the better, what then?




...And *now *it (DB) says she has feelings that she doesn't understand for Naruto. What do you think that's implying?

If he was to change for the better, good for him.

Sasuke has to learn to love himself before he can love anyone.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Well the databook say she loved him. btw, it also say Sasuke was the boy she had feelings for. Why doesn't it talk about her feelings in present? Could it be her feelings for Sasuke was just past?



It does talk about how important it is to bring Sasuke back for her- that she'll do anything.  That he is her goal and thinking about him fills her with regret and strength.
How does any of this downplay her feelings for him?  How is any of this showing that she's moved on from him?
It doesn't, it shows her conviction to bringing him back.  It shows he is still her goal, in her thoughts, in her heart.





> proof please.



I made a long detailed post about this months ago. 






> lol? Naruto is also doing it for Sakura or else there woudnt be any Poal.



And he's doing it for himself too.  He would've went after Sasuke without the PoaL, in fact he was on his way when Sakura showed up.


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## hmph (Mar 29, 2009)

So how exactly do you get Naruto's databook not mentioning his feelings for Sakura meaning he no longer has a crush on her, and Sakura not mentioning Sasuke meaning she still loves him?


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

starkiller88 said:


> Or maybe, *gasp* Kishi just wants to screw with our heads, so that we'd be debating like crazy for years on end!  Her feelings for Sasuke are unconfirmed, and her feelings for Naruto are unconfirmed.  If it said that she still loved Sasuke, then we wouldn't even need to debate, now would we?



If you think so.





> I must not be keeping up with the times or something.  Since when was love not selfish?  Wanting to be with someone so bad, that you'd be willing to give up everything, just to have them to yourself?



Love is selfish? since when?  I thought  Love and selfishness didn't belong together.




> Yep.  A promise that he hasn't made a single reference to since Part 2 began.  Naruto already had a very strong desire to bring Sasuke back without Sakura's pleading.  The PoaL just merely gave him another reason



 But if his promise didn't matter then he wouldn't feel bad at the fact he failed to bring back Sasuke. Hell there's a chapter named *his promise that he couldn't keep. His promise to SAkura must mean something.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> proof please.



Naruto vs. Gaara. Gaara is charging at Sasuke, who is unable to move, in order to kill him. Sakura jumps in front of Sasuke holding a kunai.

Link removed

Sakura does not make any attempt to fight off Gaara. If you look at the way she's holding the kunai, she can't really use it for anything unless Gaara's charge causes him to impale himself on it. Plus, I think she's seen from Lee's preliminary match what a blade does against the sand.

She was not fighting off Gaara. She was protecting Sasuke. At this point, she didn't think that Naruto was strong enough to fight off Gaara, as demonstrated by her disbelief when Sasuke says that it was Naruto who saved her. If Naruto hadn't been able to fight off Gaara, as Sakura didn't think that he could, she would have died. And yet, looking at her face, there is no hesitation. She is really prepared to die to give Sasuke a chance to live.

If that's not selfless, I don't know what is.


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It does talk about how important it is to bring Sasuke back for her- that she'll do anything.  That he is her goal and thinking about him fills her with regret and strength.
> How does any of this downplay her feelings for him?  How is any of this showing that she's moved on from him?
> It doesn't, it shows her conviction to bringing him back.  It shows he is still her goal, in her thoughts, in her heart.



It's also important for Naruto to bring back Sasuke. I guess he must be in love with him. 

Her goal is to protect the precious peuple close to her.







> I made a long detailed post about this months ago.



And i bet  they countered it[/QUOTE]


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## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

hmph said:


> So how exactly do you get Naruto's databook not mentioning his feelings for Sakura meaning he no longer has a crush on her, and Sakura not mentioning Sasuke meaning she still loves him?



Sakura's profile does mention Sasuke- quite a bit actually.  



Tenrol said:


> It's also important for Naruto to bring back Sasuke. I guess he must be in love with him.



If he had a confessing scene like Sakura.




> And i bet  they countered it



Try again


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## Tenrol (Mar 29, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Naruto vs. Gaara. Gaara is charging at Sasuke, who is unable to move, in order to kill him. Sakura jumps in front of Sasuke holding a kunai.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...




So she can't protect a friend? When she'll protect Naruto somehow later since it's one of her goal i guess she'll do this because she think Naruto as a brother right?


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## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> So she can't protect a friend? When she'll protect Naruto somehow later since it's one of her goal i guess she'll do this because she think Naruto as a brother right?



Well until she shows some romantic interest in Naruto, then she'll protect him as a friend and teammate and perhaps brother.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> So she can't protect a friend? When she'll protect Naruto somehow later since it's one of her goal i guess she'll do this because she think Naruto as a brother right?



Yes, she can protect friends. Sasuke, however, was specified as her object of affection in chapter three, and established as the boy she loved in chapter 181. This scene fell between the two, therefore it is assumed that she had some degree of romantic interest in Sasuke at this time, be it a crush or love.

Naruto has never been established as an object of affection with Sakura. Until Sakura herself is shown reflecting about whether or not she likes Naruto "like that", she is protecting him because he is a friend.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> So Naruto you doesn't need to confesse to love someone buddy.



Romantically?  Well, he surely needs to step up in that area if that's how he feels, because I see a lot of brotherly love between them but nothing romantic.





> So she can't protect Sasuke because he is a friend?



If that's all she professed for him, then yes.  However, there's that "I love you with all my heart!"


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## Milkshake (Mar 29, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I think it's painfully obvious that Sakura's character is surrounded around Naruto's and Sasuke's. Other than that, I don't think she actually has a goal or aspiration. I think her Part II character surrounds around the facts that she wants to have a normal life again, Team 7 back together as a whole, no drama attached. Yes, Sakura cares alot of Sasuke, it is obvious that she still holds some sort of respect/care for him due to the fact that she reacts whenever his name pops up also and she still calls him "Sasuke-*kun*".

Although, like I said above she's also cares about Naruto's feelings and can see how much it aches him that Sasuke is gone also. Yes, Naruto and Sakura came closer together due to one: Sasuke's departure, the lost of a close friend/teammate/first "love" but also (what most seem to neglect) two: due to the conflicts in Naruto's life, because she doesn't want to lose another close person especially one that has had a great affect on her life, believe it or not.  Her learning more about the effects of Akatsuki capturing Naruto due to his position as a Jinchuriki made her extremely worried for him, (however this doesn't exactly have to have a romantic connotation) and that itself has NOTHING TO DO WITH SASUKE. Don't belittle their relationship with the whole "99% Saving Sasuke" deal. 

There has been no direct indication that Sakura still harbors the feelings she once had for Sasuke (romantic) like I said, yes, she obviously still gives a shit about him and what happens to him (that's common concern of a teammate/ someone who was close to someone) but she hardly speaks of him, (could be of how it'll hurt Naruto? Idk.) or given a big implication that she DOES INDEED STILL "LOVE" SASUKE. 

 Using the whole 'Sasuke's her main goal so she obviously still loves him' arguement is getting completely embarassing. Her main goal is to get Sasuke back, yes, but it's also one of Naruto's most mains goals, does that mean Naruto too loves Sasuke?  And also, didn't I state how aware Sakura is of Naruto's feelings in Part II? She IS NOT just doing this for "her love of Sasuke" but for the sake of Naruto's feelings as well.

Like I noted, there isn't direct or strong indications that Sakura still harbors romantic feelings for Sasuke so infering wouldn't be _ completely foolish_ but it would in some light downgrading her development over the timeskip. Now I know what some of you are going to think: Why can't Sakura become mature AND still love Sasuke? Isn't she over her fangirls days and wants to be sophisicated with her love for him?  

My answer: Because in my eyes, it was never a "mature love" in the first place, more as a 'selfish, clingy and pushed-on" love. You can't try to make a 'mature love' for someone if they aren't there to progress it with. So what if Sakura still 'loves' Sasuke like she did before the time skip? Then she would obviously still have those 'selfish, clingy' feelings, no?

As we all know Sakura wasn't your best character in Part I, and most can say that it is solely due to her fangirlish and irritating behavior/affection for said Uchiha. 

Liking Sasuke just added a whole another negative layer to her character, sending insults to those who disrespected him/ tried to get in the way of her romantic persue of Sasuke, even her once good friend Ino who she stop being friends but instead rivals due to the fact that she too liked Sasuke and would like to be on equal terms with to compete for his love. 

The way she clinged to Sasuke obviously irritated him, because he is a selfish solo type guy. He insulted her, and pushed her away many times to tell her that he doesn't want a romantic relationship with her. She is precious, and a good friend but he doesn't want her as a girlfriend. And it wasn't because he was busy with his revenge ambition because he had made this clear before the Chunin Exams that he didn't like her that way.  

My question: Why would anyone promote such a disfunctional relationship? Where the girl must kill her development, her sense of pride and self-esteem just to be with someone who pushes her away none the less, and has made it clear that she doesn't like her that way? Please do explain. When Sakura (having ambigious feelings for Naruto) who has inspired positive factors in her that Sasuke hasn't (even though he's done his slim fair share of that) could POSSIBLY learn to turn to him for love? Especially due to how closer she is Naruto than she ever was to Sasuke. 

Btw, I do not support NS. Thank you


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## JERITROLL (Mar 29, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Yes, she can protect friends. Sasuke, however, was specified as her object of affection in chapter three, and established as the boy she loved in chapter 181. This scene fell between the two, therefore it is assumed that she had some degree of romantic interest in Sasuke at this time, be it a crush or love.
> 
> Naruto has never been established as an object of affection with Sakura. Until Sakura herself is shown reflecting about whether or not she likes Naruto "like that", she is protecting him because he is a friend.



... And Sakura has been an object of Naruto's affection since Chapter 3 if we're gonna play by those rules. And if that's the case, then something's gotta give. Naruto hasn't had time to think about it in Part 2 in a manner outside of the sidethoughs. But then again, it's Naruto we're talking about, and Sakura hasn't been in a life or death situation or hurting like when he made the PoaL since then. Before that, this is just the sort of thing Naruto would do, so the point is moot.

Now, the latter, I do agree with. But that doesn't mean she isn't falling for him, not one bit.


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## The Duchess (Mar 29, 2009)

I have a request for anybody who's pro-SS: please show examples where Sakura has _directly expressed_ her supposed love for Sasuke in recent chapters (by that I mean a little something called "Part Two"). And please don't answer this with petty responses such as "NS hasn't any expressed love either!" please.

Why am I asking this? Simply anti-NSers keep repeating the "Naruto's never expressed any feelings toward Sakura, and vice versa!" mantra while somehow SS still exists on Sakura's side. I just wanna kill this particular double-standard.

Speaking of double standards, what happened to the people who depended on the databooks so much? Didn't Sakura's entry say something about not being sure what her feelings are for Naruto anymore? That behind everything that's happened, Naruto's always been the one there for her, not Sasuke? Funny how that part gets ignored, while only lack of arrows and hearts don't. Hinata didn't get an arrow, did she? Yet we all know what she really feels for Naruto.

I'm not a DB fan by any means, but the information above highlights what we should already know from the manga: Sakura is developing feelings that aren't friendship for Naruto. Why bother having that part of the entry if it were only friendship?

And before anybody accuses me of being a DB naysayer and then "desperately" turning to it after recent chapters, I was never one of those people who said the DB were full of crap. Kthnx.

If Sakura still loves Sasuke, why would it be kept on such a nonexistent quiet level? One of her biggest characteristics was her feelings for Sasuke. So why haven't they been shown at all? For laughs?


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## moonjump05 (Mar 30, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> ... And Sakura has been an object of Naruto's affection since Chapter 3 if we're gonna play by those rules. And if that's the case, then something's gotta give. Naruto hasn't had time to think about it in Part 2 in a manner outside of the sidethoughs. But then again, it's Naruto we're talking about, and Sakura hasn't been in a life or death situation or hurting like when he made the PoaL since then. Before that, this is just the sort of thing Naruto would do, so the point is moot.
> 
> Now, the latter, I do agree with. But that doesn't mean she isn't falling for him, not one bit.



Yet there is the PoaL.  Where Naruto accepts Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.  Sakura hasn't been his serious romantic interest since then, he thinks nothing of his romantic relationship with her.  Shows no great interest in seriously pursueing her.  Seeing this I can't help but conclude he's just not that interested.




EarthBenderGal said:


> Speaking of double standards, what happened to the people who depended on the databooks so much? Didn't Sakura's entry say something about not being sure what her feelings are for Naruto anymore? That behind everything that's happened, Naruto's always been the one there for her, not Sasuke? Funny how that part gets ignored, while only lack of arrows and hearts don't. Hinata didn't get an arrow, did she? Yet we all know what she really feels for Naruto.
> 
> I'm not a DB fan by any means, but the information above highlights what we should already know from the manga: Sakura is developing feelings that aren't friendship for Naruto. Why bother having that part of the entry if it were only friendship?



About the databooks, the time span DB3 covers in the manga is up until what?  
Focused on the seeing Sasuke again arc?
This part in the manga greatly highlights Naruto and Sakura's bond.  Before this time their bond was left on the wayside and it needed the time to show exactly how much they have grown.
Sakura's profile does mention Naruto as someone who's been there for her, as someone who she isn't quite sure how she feels about.  Why?  Because before this time Naruto was an annoyance and it was only recently-relative to the DB timespan- that she started to change her mind about this.  It was only shown in this timespan just how much she had changed her mind about him, how she went from seeing him as a nuisance to seeing him as a friend and teammate.

So when I read that she isn't sure how she feels about him, the first thing that comes to mind is her changed attitude towards him that started at the PoaL.  That when Naruto is someone who's been there for her, that it has to do with her thinking Naruto was only someone who wanted to get in her way.

All the info in the databook should highlight what we should be seeing in the manga, I don't see why Sakura's profile is different.  And since this series is mainly focused on friendship I don't see why it would be out of place.

Oh, and Hinata did get an arrow right to Naruto's heart


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 30, 2009)

> Tyrannos:
> I'll just ignore those direct attacks.



Those weren't direct attacks.  That was actually fact.  Weren't you the one who said, what was it, "If it talks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's a duck"?  Isn't that not only flamebaiting, but also generalizing and a direct attack not only on Miss P but a variety of other people in this debate thread?

You admitted that you generalize, so I said that not everyone who thinks one NaruSaku theory is ridiculous is an Anti-NaruSaku person (this was after you made another generalizing comment by saying, "Only Anti-NaruSaku-ers think blah blah blah").

Look.  Honestly, if I had a problem with you, I'd PM you about it.  However, if you have a personal issue with me or you think I have issues with you, feel free to pm me about it. I'd be glad to have a civil conversation about it.



> As I said it's not in Naruto's character to do such a thing. But without Sasuke around, it gives Sakura a chance to see Naruto in a whole different light, does it not? She's discovering a side that's far from the stupid idiot she once knew.
> 
> And what's to say she isn't falling in love with that Naruto?



True, I never argued against that fact. ^^  As I said, I'm a huge fan of Naruto/Sakura friendship, I just don't view their moments in a romantic light.

Also, to reply to your last question, I was arguing facts only confirmed in canon.  Over 400 chapters into the story and we don't have concrete canon of Sakura getting over Sasuke and falling for Naruto, just like we don't have concrete canon evidence of Naruto's feelings deepening into love.

It's possible.


*Spoiler*: __ 



We didn't have hard concrete evidence of Hinata's feelings until latest chapters, either.




But the thing about Hinata is that she's not a main character.  It's easy to miss her own feelings (even if in every scene she has, it's always centered around how she feels about Naruto or about the Hyuuga family).  Naruto and Sakura, however, are the main characters in Part Two, and other than strengthening their friendship, we still don't have hard canon proof of her falling for him, or Naruto's feelings deepening into love.

Between Sasuke and Sakura, Sasuke hasn't been around long enough for them to talk about their issues.  That, and Sasuke is still bent on revenge -- he can't allow his precious people (Kakashi, Naruto, and Sakura) to get in the way or be hurt by the people he hates, just like he can't have them around to soften him and make him not want his revenge anymore.  He needs his revenge, thus he hasn't been able to even think of building a life in Konoha with anybody, friends or otherwise. Will he ever?  Who knows, that's not what I'm arguing.  What I _am_ arguing is that we haven't had a chance to see those feelings exposed yet because he hasn't been around the other main characters; he's been intentionally staying away from them.

However, Sakura and Naruto are the main characters.  They don't have an excuse anymore.

My point is that if it hasn't happened already, it's not likely to happen.  It's _possible_, especially because there's nothing confirming that Naruto's crush has faded.  However, they're main characters, are constantly around each other, have been in countless battles, and have a strong friendship now -- Kishi had many chances to make that friendship something more by now (with solid confirmed evidence), but he doesn't take those chances.

That's what has, in fact, led me to believe that they're not likely, because there's nothing confirming either of their feelings deepening, and over 400 chapters into the story and neither main characters have confirmed deeper feelings?


Again, it's possible.


But... it's not likely.  At least at this point.



> Nope, far much more to that, than "good friends".



Please reread what I said then.  You made it sound like you were saying, "It's your opinion that just because they're best friends they won't get together".  I said "good friends" because Sasuke is Naruto's best friend, not Sakura.



> I didn't say because people are "good friends", but its a fact that people who known one another for a very long time have a strong possibility of becoming a couple.



Well yeah, but just because they've known each other for a long time doesn't mean they _will_ become a couple.  But then again, you did say "strong possibility". *shrug*



> Besides, isn't SasuSaku the same? Sakura wasn't close to Sasuke until they became a team, and she learned the real Sasuke (both good and bad).



Wasn't arguing SasuSaku. 


Even so, it's not the same. Sakura has canonically confirmed feelings of grown/matured love for Sasuke.  Have these faded? It's not the point.  Naruto has only a confirmed crush on Sakura.  Has this faded? It's not the point.  Sakura's feelings for Sasuke grew into love. Naruto's feelings for Sakura haven't been confirmed to be anything more than a crush.  Could they? Not the point. _They haven't been_, that's the point.



> Chapter 343 would disagree with you, even though people challenge Sakura's motives in feeding Naruto, you can't ignore Naruto scolding of Sai, in claiming, "It's romantic!"
> 
> So Naruto himself clearly still has strong feelings for Sakura.



Just because he wanted Sakura to feed him does _not_ mean his crush has grown.  Again, I'll state it: it's been confirmed he has a _crush_ on Sakura and there is no confirmation that these feelings have faded (that means it's likely he still has a crush). But there has been no confirmation that these feelings have deepened.

Again: Wanting your crush to feed you doesn't mean you love them.  If it does, me and about a gagzillion other shounen heroes would've been in love multiple times by now.



> Everyone would agree with you, because all pairings still haven't had any requitting. Sasuke hasn't thought about Sakura and Naruto hasn't thought about Hinata in a romantic light. However, with Sakura there are strong hints that she is seeing Naruto in a new light which can indeed end up with her falling in love with Naruto.



Again, I'm not arguing NaruHina or SasuSaku, however they are in fact above NaruSaku in the _confirmed_ romance area (emphasis: confirmed).  Anything between Naruto and Sakura has to be interpreted, over 400 chapters into the story _between the two main characters_.

Sakura = seeing Naruto in a new light.  I interpret it as good friendship and recognition.  You interpret it as her falling in love with Naruto.  Canon has confirmed friendship, but hasn't confirmed romance (there's a chance it might turn out this way, but as of now it's less likely).  Has also confessed love to Sasuke.  Has not had any evidence of those feelings fading, just as Naruto has no evidence of his crush fading (nor deepening -- his deepening feelings for Sakura are interpreted as romantic to you, but only as deep friendship to myself -- see?).  However, love > crush.


I don't want to argue interpretations because that's all NaruSaku has, other than a confirmed crush on Sakura.  That's not much for the two main characters of a story who've been in many situations that could easily push them together.  If Kishi sucks at romance, he's making it even more complicated for himself.



> True, no confirmed love, *but there are indeed hints that does point to her to be starting to fall in love with him*.



Interpretations.

I view the "hints" purely as a deepening friendship for Naruto.  All of her life, Sakura viewed him as that annoying kid who was a total loser.  However, now he's all she really has, and that's a huge difference to her.  I view this as a huge character development moment simply for the fact that now he's gone from loser to best friend who supports her even though she treated him badly all his life.  Can it be interpreted as romantic?  Sure.  Can it be interpreted as platonic?  Absolutely.



> And I highly doubt Kishimoto is going to alter his story for the sake of $$$. He's plenty rich already.



lol, when did I imply he was going to alter his story? SasuSaku, NaruHina, NaruSaku, doesn't matter -- they'll be in the plans from the get-go. Don't tell me you're of the "the EDITORS made him do it!!!11" crowd?

I was simply stating that he probably won't rob the audience of writing the drama between Sasuke and Sakura (since he hinged a huge Part One moment on Sakura trying to stop Sasuke; he wanted us to care about these two crazy kids).  A huge part of her character in Part One was her love for Sasuke, obviously Kishi isn't going to ignore this side of hers by making those feelings fade.  If Sakura's feelings shift and are confirm to shift, it honestly makes the conflict a lot less interesting between her and Sasuke (and not just in a romantic light -- even before I was a shipper of anyone, I kept thinking how interesting it'll be to see how the two deal with her confession, be it that he doesn't return her feelings or if he does).

Lee?  Not a main character.  It's okay if his feelings fade.  It makes me sad, because his crush on Sakura was really humorous and cute in Part One, but it's okay because he's not a main character and his crush was used for comedic effect, not srs bns.

Ino?  Not a main character.  It's okay for her feelings to fade for Sasuke.  You can say, "Well Hinata's not a main character so it's okay if her crush fades", but the thing is that her crush isn't a crush anymore, and while Lee's and Ino's crushes were used for comedic effect, Hinata's wasn't.

Sakura?  A main character.  Her confession -- which was taken seriously, as opposed to Lee's -- weighs more heavily on her personal character.  It doesn't mean she can't fall for anyone else, but it also means that her feelings aren't likely to fade just like that.  It's possible, but unlikely.

con'd


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## Spiffy is Glory (Mar 30, 2009)

con'd



> Date 1 = No punching, screaming or insulting.
> Date 2 = No punching, screaming or insulting.



Date 1 = The one where Sakura was worried sick about Sasuke? 
Date 2 = Just to catch up, wasn't really romantic.

That, and Sakura was looking for free meals. XD

So, I take it back.  NaruSaku = Has punching, screaming, insulting, Sauce-lovin, or used as a humor punching bag (especially in part two).  Serious NaruSaku moments can be interpreted as friendship or as romantic, but they're not confirmed to be either. 



> The Raman Scene = No punching, screaming or insulting.



Still used as humor.



> Besides, this is the typical biased arguement in looking at the negatives of Sakrua being "rough" with Naruto, but never seeing the good moments between one another.



Not biased.  Might be typical, but not biased.  Again, I'll say it: while my preferences lie with SasuSaku and NaruHina, I ship them because I view them as most likely canon.  I also ship a variety of other characters together, of which NaruSaku is included.  I have no reason to be biased, I just view something differently than you do.

Also, I see good moments all the time.  I've said it several times that I'm a fan of Naruto/Sakura friendship.  However, I view their moments as purely platonic, not as romantic, and until I get canon confirmation for a shift of these feelings like we've gotten for Sakura's or Hinata's, I don't think my position on that will budge.



> BTW, I should also point out that this is a Shonen Manga, where women tend to be rough with their women and not "lovey dovey" like in Shoujo mangas.




*Spoiler*: __ 



It's also common in not only shonen manga but in entertainment in _general_ that a girl throws herself between the main character and the main villain, thus saving his life and possibly negating her own.




Again, not arguing NaruHina -- I'm just using it as a device to point out that there are many stereotypes in shonen manga.  Naruto also likes to take stereotypes and bend them.



> Come to think of it, NaruHinas love to equate NaruHina to GokuxChichi, but yet, last I recall Chichi was just as abusive with Goku as Sakura is with Naruto.



Actually, Chichi didn't get rough with Goku until after their marriage (before then, it was mostly cute accidental shoves when he said something that embarrassed her.  The only exception to this before they're married is the case when he checked if she was a girl).  We haven't seen Naruto and Hinata married, so... 

It's funny you're equating Chichi with Sakura.  I mean, there's some similarities, but the similarities are more uncanny when paralleling Chichi with Hinata and Sakura with Bulma.

Chichi/Hinata:
-Their colors (cool colors -- seeing as Kishi loves using colors, this pretty much confirms that if anyone would be Chichi, it'd probably be Hinata considering they have the same colors; this goes with Goku/Naru being orange/blue and Vegeta/Sauce being blue).

-Chichi's father (the world-renown powerful Ox King who's known for his strength) plays a huge role in her life.  Who does the Ox King remind you of?  Daddy Hyuuga by chance, who's also world renown for his strength and Byakuugan?  Also, the Ox King was at one time a cruel asshole who turned into a good ruler very much liked by the people.  Doesn't this sound somewhat like Hinata's dad, who was supposed to seem like an asshole at first only to talk over his issues with Neji?  We haven't seen any talk between Hinata and her father, but we do know that he's not as much as an asshole as we were supposed to at first think.

-In Dragonball (not Z), Chichi pretty much gets a crush on Goku the moment she sees him.  Note that Chichi didn't start liking Yamcha until he lied that he loved her -- in fact, when she first saw Yamcha, she was afraid of him.  However, she wasn't afraid of Goku when she first saw him, even though he was moving quickly toward her on the Nimbus.  So she pretty much likes him from the beginning -- who does this remind you of?  Even if Sakura starts liking Naruto in Part Two, she didn't love him right off the bat.  Chichi (and most likely Hinata) did.

-Pretty much all of the beginning girls of the Dragonball series were either used as humor or fanservice (with the exception of Bulma's mechanical skills and Chichi's powerful attacks she gets from her father), so a lot of them are pretttty dang "Oh, booooyz yey!".  However, out of the Dragonball girls, I'd say Chichi is the closest to being the most shy about her feelings for Goku (always blushing, holding her face, looking away from him when he says something that she views as romantic -- shoving him to push him away).  This is much different than the more direct approach females like, say, Bulma (or Sakura) do.  Though, I'd say this point is probably the weakest of them, considering Chichi isn't too shy about it.

-Most of all, we hardly see her in Dragonball except for at the end, and even then she gets a multitude of, what, five episodes?  She's pretty much a cameo character.  Can't say that about Sakura, although I can say that about Hinata.

-She's not a vicious manbeater in the beginning.  Again, she only hits Goku while blushing or in order to "flirt" with him by doing little shoves or pushes when she thinks he's trying to be romantic.  She doesn't start hitting him until Dragonball Z, when they're married.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata and Naruto aren't married, and this is the first time we've seen Hinata reveal her feelings for Naruto.





Bulma/Sakura:
-Brainy (don't even need to explain this)

-The main heroine of the story

-She begins Dragonball with her hair to her shoulders.  For a few sagas later on, her hair gets shorter (remind you of a certain pink-haired Kunoichi?).

-Her colors are hot colors (mainly pink).  This goes with the color theme Kishimoto has set up.

-Her first relationship is, in fact, with Goku's _first rival_, Yamcha.  While Yamcha and Bulma break up eventually, she then goes on to be with Goku's ultimate rival, Vegeta.  The point of this: Bulma was attracted to Goku's rivals, like Sakura.

-Bulma is flirty and looks for the perfect boyfriend.  Sasuke is, as stated by plenty of fangirls, a perfect man.  Sakura likes Sasuke, who she thinks would be the "perfect boyfriend".


Honestly?  Really?  Comparing Chichi and Sakura only opens a whole other can of worms, but frankly it's ridiculous debating that Dragonball = Naruto.  For one thing, Goku was pretty asexual until he got older and said he'd marry Chichi, whereas Naruto was attracted to Sakura since the beginning.  Goku grew up in the mountains and never saw another human being other than Grandpa Gohan.  Naruto grew up in a village who treated him like a loser.

Goku is pretty much a good fighter right off the bat.

Naruto was, at first, a proud failure who worked hard to be as strong as he is now.

Goku only lost his first tournament to his mentor, whereas Naruto has never faced his mentors in a serious one-on-one duel, especially during the Chuunin Exams (in fact, Sasuke was the one who seriously faced his future mentor, Orochimaru).

So really, DBZ =/= Naruto. 



> Because they confessed doesn't mean automatic romance, especially in Shonen mangas.
> 
> You're taking the typical Shoujo expectation that confessions lead to love, but in Shonens that's not normally the case because romance is an afterthought. It's about action, not drama.



You're completely right, it's a Shonen manga.  

Tyrannos, you made me realize something I hadn't before.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Shonen manga don't typically linger on the romantic aspects of their story.  Yet, it's a shonen manga with two confessions in it, both played seriously and romantically and intricately... *both having huge impacts on both the character/s and the storylines, to the point where they are vital to set up future plotlines* (poal/6tails)...




Huh.

For such an afterthought, they must be really important, not only to those who confessed it, but to those they confessed it to.  Especially if they're so romantic in a manga aimed at boys.  Odd that such important romantic moments have to be brushed aside for a couple with only interpretations and a confirmed crush, especially when all evidence and past behavior points to the plot building on the foundations the plot's already given.

^^

I agree with the sentiment that romance isn't important in shonen.  But the confessions we've seen had impact, and weren't just an afterthought.


Not saying NaruHina and SasuSaku will end up together because of the confessions, just saying you can't say that Kishi put them in there just because he could.  I mean, seriously?  In a _shonen_ manga.  Two _very_ romantic confessions.  Which plot took time to go somewhere with.

...



> So don't be surprised by the end of this manga that Sakura ends up with Naruto.



I'd actually laugh in amusement if NaruSaku happened.   But I'm pretty much 90% sure it won't, tbh.


----------



## Griever (Mar 30, 2009)

As Naruto is inspired by DBZ it won't be the same exact thing it is a story in it's own.

useing DBZ to dabate Relationships in Naruto is not a sure thing because you never know, i mean NaruHina fans often say that Sakura=Bulma and that is there debate.. but at that same time what if Kishi was a GokuXBulma fan?.


*Spoiler*: __ 



As to Sasuke and Sakura in part 2 i have not seen anything that would lead me to think that Sakura has feeling's for Sasuke in the same way she did in part 1 of the manga. She is closer to Naruto now than she ever was to Sasuke.

Hinata's confession to Naruto: I've read a cuple of forums wile serfin the net and there are alot of NaruHina fans saying that it was final NaruHina is gonna happen which is foolish.. just because someone confesses does not mean the relationship is absolute.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Mar 30, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> I agree with the sentiment that romance isn't important in shonen.  But the confessions we've seen had impact, and weren't just an afterthought.



It's also for character development and thickening the plot effectively; Naruto isn't an extremely typical shounen.

Either way, I still think

constant care/support > constant ignorement/indifference [NH less negative]

progressive screentime > embarrassing/pathetic plot role [NH _may_ get the farfetched chance]

mutual ambiguous relationship > one-sided romance 

productive interaction > poor interaction [NH: suddenly pulling out your lazor doesn't make up for what lacks]

comic violence > actual emotional/physical violence [NH exempted]

NS > NH/SS


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 30, 2009)

Kind debaters,

I would like to point out that Sakura's punching is merely the same kind of comedic relief like Chichi used on Goku. You do not see broken bones, severed jaws or torn apart organs. It's merely _for crying out loud_ comedic relief.

Oh, and we all know how Chichi and Goku ended up, eh. Just for those who like to compare DBZ to Naruto. not that that is even close to evidence, but fuck.

Halucinating,
Kitsune Naruto


----------



## Queen Vag (Mar 30, 2009)

Lmao, Chichi isn't ANYTHING like Hinata. I can't believe some of you are making that comparison.


----------



## Tyrannos (Mar 30, 2009)

Spiffy is Glory said:


> Those weren't direct attacks. That was actually fact. Weren't you the one who said, what was it, "If it talks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's a duck"? Isn't that not only flamebaiting, but also generalizing and a direct attack not only on Miss P but a variety of other people in this debate thread?


 
If such a thing was a direct attack or flamebaiting, the Moderators would've edited that out. All you are doing is making a mountain out of a molehill.

So if you're not here to debate, then please take it elsewhere.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> True, I never argued against that fact. ^^ As I said, I'm a huge fan of Naruto/Sakura friendship, I just don't view their moments in a romantic light.


 
And you're free to post that opinion, but NaruSaku fans believe there is a growing bond that will eventually lead to them becoming a couple.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> But... it's not likely. At least at this point.


 
You are greatly underestimating it's potential. 

Thoughout the manga, we always knew Naruto had feelings for Sakura. And there were moments where Sakura alone was jealous or being impressed by him. Which she never really did with Sasuke, except when we first ran into the Sand Siblings.

If you doubt this, then NaruHina is wrong, because they use that same line of evidence with Hinata's feelings for Naruto.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Well yeah, but just because they've known each other for a long time doesn't mean they _will_ become a couple. But then again, you did say "strong possibility". *shrug*


 
You're more likely to get together with someone you know, more than someone you know little about.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Wasn't arguing SasuSaku.
> 
> 
> Even so, it's not the same. Sakura has canonically confirmed feelings of grown/matured love for Sasuke. Have these faded? It's not the point. Naruto has only a confirmed crush on Sakura. Has this faded? It's not the point. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke grew into love. Naruto's feelings for Sakura haven't been confirmed to be anything more than a crush. Could they? Not the point. _They haven't been_, that's the point.


 
No, that's your opinion that it was a mature love. Kishimoto himself says the opposite, that her love for Sasuke was a "selfish love".

And if she was still in love, then why was she ready to be the snot out of him during the reunion, for Naruto's sake? (Also, Sasuke obviously was not returning that same sentiment when he had a look of murderous intent).

As for Naruto's feelings, nobody said it was anything more. NaruSaku's believe in the potential that is slowly building up between the two. 



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Just because he wanted Sakura to feed him does _not_ mean his crush has grown. Again, I'll state it: it's been confirmed he has a _crush_ on Sakura and there is no confirmation that these feelings have faded (that means it's likely he still has a crush). But there has been no confirmation that these feelings have deepened.
> 
> Again: Wanting your crush to feed you doesn't mean you love them. If it does, me and about a gagzillion other shounen heroes would've been in love multiple times by now.


 
Nobody said it grew, we said it proves people wrong in stating that he lost interest in her.

BTW, last I checked in Japan, women feeding men is a great romantic sentiment. (Yes, this goes for Sakura feeding Sasuke apples - if he ate them. )



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Sakura = seeing Naruto in a new light. I interpret it as good friendship and recognition. You interpret it as her falling in love with Naruto.


 
Friendship was established back in the Wave Arc.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Date 1 = The one where Sakura was worried sick about Sasuke?


 
Never said it had to do with Sasuke, you stated previously that Sakura abuses him on dates. And I simply proved you wrong.



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Still used as humor.


 
And your point is? Last I checked women being agressive against men are a staple in mangas. And the majority of the time they always end up as a couple. 



Spiffy is Glory said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

*Spoiler*: __ 



True, but the woman typically dies after doing so. 

If fact, aside from Chichi, I don't recall any secondary characters confessing, ever ending up with the main character. 






Spiffy is Glory said:


> Actually, Chichi didn't get rough with Goku until after their marriage (before then, it was mostly cute accidental shoves when he said something that embarrassed her. The only exception to this before they're married is the case when he checked if she was a girl). We haven't seen Naruto and Hinata married, so...
> 
> It's funny you're equating Chichi with Sakura. I mean, there's some similarities, but the similarities are more uncanny when paralleling Chichi with Hinata and Sakura with Bulma.


 
Oh, she was rough before hand. Very demanding infact. Goku just went along, because he didn't know better. 



Spiffy is Glory said:


> Chichi/Hinata:
> Bulma/Sakura:


 
I did not just see that.  



Spiffy is Glory said:


> So really, DBZ =/= Naruto.


 
Well no shit, Sherlock. 



Spiffy is Glory said:


> You're completely right, it's a Shonen manga.
> 
> Tyrannos, you made me realize something I hadn't before.
> 
> ...


 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Pretty presumptious when nothing had came about Hinata's confession. 






Spiffy is Glory said:


> Not saying NaruHina and SasuSaku will end up together because of the confessions, just saying you can't say that Kishi put them in there just because he could. I mean, seriously? In a _shonen_ manga. Two _very_ romantic confessions. Which plot took time to go somewhere with.


 
Not you, but from this debate thread and what's said in the Pairing FCs, many do equate character's confession as permanently sealing those people as a couple.

Hell, I recall one FC in particular, recently rubbing it in peoples faces in when their 1/2 of their pairing confessed, and saying pairing war was over, because their pairing won. 



Spiffy is Glory said:


> I'd actually laugh in amusement if NaruSaku happened. But I'm pretty much 90% sure it won't, tbh.


 
Well, start laughing, chuckles!


----------



## Hyku (Mar 30, 2009)

unfortunetlly i think sakura is going to get with naruto in the end. He's been in love with her since episode 1. Theres also a chance that sasuke will somehow be magically forgivin of becoming a nuke-nin, and attacking a fellow konoha shinobi. Sakura will either fall in love with naruto or sasuke. theres a small chance that hinata will get with naruto but considering how messed up kishimoto is then im pretty sure that we'll see either naruto/sakura, sasuke/sakura and hinata/her fingers


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## Sasuko (Mar 30, 2009)

Hyku said:


> unfortunetlly i think sakura is going to get with naruto in the end. He's been in love with her since episode 1. Theres also a chance that sasuke will somehow be magically forgivin of becoming a nuke-nin, and attacking a fellow konoha shinobi. Sakura will either fall in love with naruto or sasuke. theres a small chance that hinata will get with naruto but considering how messed up kishimoto is then im pretty sure that we'll see either naruto/sakura, sasuke/sakura and hinata/her fingers


 
So, by your statement, you're saying Naruto will end up with Sakura because he's liked her the longest, from episode 1? That's not true, nor does it make any sense. Sakura and Ino liked Sasuke before the series began. Hinata liked Naruto too, from day one.

I'm not saying NaruHina will end up together. But please don't belittle what she has done in her part so far. They may not end up together but they still have a chance like everyone does.


----------



## Alyze (Mar 30, 2009)

Hyku said:


> unfortunetlly i think sakura is going to get with naruto in the end. He's been in love with her since episode 1. Theres also a chance that sasuke will somehow be magically forgivin of becoming a nuke-nin, and attacking a fellow konoha shinobi. Sakura will either fall in love with naruto or sasuke. theres a small chance that hinata will get with naruto but considering how messed up kishimoto is then im pretty sure that we'll see either naruto/sakura, sasuke/sakura and hinata/her fingers





tsuki-tenshou said:


> So, by your statement, you're saying Naruto will end up with Sakura because he's liked her the longest, from episode 1? That's not true, nor does it make any sense. Sakura and Ino liked Sasuke



if you are saying (Hyku) as Tsuki pointed out that naruto will end up with hinata because he's liked her the longest i just think i should point out that in naruto people aren't simple or static. They change as they grow. Take sakura for example. Over the course of part one she changed and at the end she was a totally different person. The more obvious change would be Gaara, i think that one is self explanatory. 
When naruto made the POAL i took that as an acceptance of sakura's feelings for sasuke and his attitude in part two only supports that. 
 anyway that's my two cents. ^^

(doesn't really matter how much we argue over this stuff case we don't have any say in the matter in the end)


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 30, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> If such a thing was a direct attack or flamebaiting, the Moderators would've edited that out. All you are doing is making a mountain out of a molehill.


 
It wasn't a direct attack; it was just indirect, condescending, and rude.



Tyrannos said:


> Guess you never seen a heartbreak moment before.


 


> Actually, its more common than you realize.


 


> More than that, you don't wish to acknowledge any kind of romantic possibilities between Naruto and Sakura, because it threatens SasuSaku.


 
^Just like the above replies.



> So if you're not here to debate, then please take it elsewhere.


 


> I did not just see that.





> Well no shit, Sherlock.





> Well, start laughing, chuckles!


 
^Yes, because you are clearly "debating" when you use condescending emoticons.
--


> No, that's your opinion that it was a mature love. Kishimoto himself says the opposite, that her love for Sasuke was a "selfish love".


 
And where does it state that past that point, her feelings remained selfish?



> Sakura will either fall in love with naruto or sasuke.


 
She already fell in love with someone. 

I do not understand why Sakura cannot remain devoted to Sasuke romantically, yet Naruto can to Sakura [if he is, which I disagree with].


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## Griever (Mar 30, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> It wasn't a direct attack; it was just indirect, condescending, and rude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The reasons are Simple. After the time skip Naruto Still showed feeling's for Sakura, at the same time Sakura's feeling's grew for Naruto as the series pregressed.

Reason why Naruto remains devoted to Sakura: Naruto never really had a selfish crush on Sakura (maybe at the beggining he did) with Naruto's past it is likely that he would not give up on Sakura for a multiple of reasons.

Sakura's Crush on Sasuke: well that was a shallow crush based for the most part on Popularity, such relationships never work and die out vary quick.

if you take a look at the personalitys of both Naruto and Sasuke and look at it from a womans poin of view who would be the logical choice to start a relationship with be?... Well it would be Naruto hands down would it not? he is willing to sacrifice his own happiness to make her happy, Sasuke is Selfish he will always put himself first over everyone else and make her sad and cry alot, Naruto would not.
I think it's pretty clear.


----------



## moonjump05 (Mar 30, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> The reasons are Simple. After the time skip Naruto Still showed feeling's for Sakura, at the same time Sakura's feeling's grew for Naruto as the series pregressed.



Actually, Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura have been on the decline and Sakura's friendship/teammate bond with Naruto has grown.



> Reason why Naruto remains devoted to Sakura: Naruto never really had a selfish crush on Sakura (maybe at the beggining he did) with Naruto's past it is likely that he would not give up on Sakura for a multiple of reasons.



And yet he did during the PoaL by directly acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.



> Sakura's Crush on Sasuke: well that was a shallow crush based for the most part on Popularity, such relationships never work and die out vary quick.



It was selfish and immature in chapter 3.  Can you honestly say her feelings for him didn't deepen?  That she didn't try and understand him as a person?  That she was lying when she said she loved him?



> if you take a look at the personalitys of both Naruto and Sasuke and look at it from a womans poin of view who would be the logical choice to start a relationship with be?... Well it would be Naruto hands down would it not? he is willing to sacrifice his own happiness to make her happy, Sasuke is Selfish he will always put himself first over everyone else and make her sad and cry alot, Naruto would not.
> I think it's pretty clear.



I am a woman.  And while logic isn't always relevant to the heart, I can't say I would get with someone I wasn't interested in.
Besides, Naruto would exaperate her to no end.  Some of his basic personality traits she just doesn't handle.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 31, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> The reasons are Simple. After the time skip Naruto Still showed feeling's for Sakura, at the same time Sakura's feeling's grew for Naruto as the series pregressed.


 
"Feelings" is completely vague. Affection isn't necessarily "deeply in love"; once in a while, he showed a glimpse of affectionate feelings. The rest of the time was comedic, dealing with Team Seven bonds, and Sakura never explicitly returned anything.



> Reason why Naruto remains devoted to Sakura: Naruto never really had a selfish crush on Sakura (maybe at the beggining he did) with Naruto's past it is likely that he would not give up on Sakura for a multiple of reasons.


 
Yes, his crush was selfish in the beginning. After that, she was basically the only female who paid him any mind; Naruto's lack of bonds and knowledge of them [at that early point] makes it logical for him to be trying to hold on to the one girl who is in his team, who is the cute one [but liking looks doesn't mean canon] he already wants attention from. When no other girl is paying him any mind and Sakura begins to soften from disliking him as much as she did:  Why wouldn't Naruto press the crush?​ 


> Sakura's Crush on Sasuke: well that was a shallow crush based for the most part on Popularity, such relationships never work and die out vary quick.


 
Naruto's was also based on an _arguably _shallow reason [looks], but apparently it turned into love. So why couldn't Sakura's? Oh wait, it did. 

Sakura first announced she liked Sasuke before she had any inkling he was popular. Assuming she was therefore attracted by looks [like Naruto], popularity has nothing to do with either initial crush. 

And what do people notice first about other people? If they catch a glimpse of them? Shake their hand once at a party? There is so much you can gather from a quick glimpse or "hello". Attraction and looks. What will make you approach another and stay away from the other?



> if you take a look at the personalitys of both Naruto and Sasuke and look at it from a womans poin of view who would be the logical choice to start a relationship with be?...


 
But she doesn't have to choose one. I'm sure Sakura would be alone before being with someone she doesn't love. 



> Well it would be Naruto hands down would it not? he is willing to sacrifice his own happiness to make her happy,


 
Because he's choosing to be that way does not mean she would love him just out of returning the favour. 



> Sasuke is Selfish he will always put himself first over everyone else and make her sad and cry alot, Naruto would not.


 
Yes, because everyone was just so kind to Sasuke. Look, no one can expect Sasuke to be a happy person; so much happened in his life. Still, Sakura fell in love [is still in love] with someone who has faults, and she understands that. Just because she isn't going after someone who was the hero, the one cracking jokes, the hothead, people think it's wrong. Whatever, it's love, and love is always blind in some aspect. Sakura had many chances to step back and stop loving Sasuke, but she didn't; she loved him even if he wasn't perfect. And everyone seems to liken Naruto to being the perfect guy. =/


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## JERITROLL (Mar 31, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Actually, Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura have been on the decline and Sakura's friendship/teammate bond with Naruto has grown.



No evidence for this, Kishi hasn't had Naruto deny them outright, only placed them on hold. And even then, at least it's there, even if it is comedic. Sakura hasn't said anything about Sasuke in that light since Part 1.



> And yet he did during the PoaL by directly acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.



Again, it's been shown that the feelings still linger at the very least. It'd also be very OOC for him to just simply 'give up'. He's constantly said he'll never give up, ESPECIALLY in Part 2. 



> It was selfish and immature in chapter 3.  Can you honestly say her feelings for him didn't deepen?  That she didn't try and understand him as a person?  That she was lying when she said she loved him?



No, she wasn't lying, but they didn't deepen either. Sakura clearly stated that Sasuke never talked to her, the whole thing is that even though SHE tried, it didn't work out 'cause Sasuke *didn't care*. That's the reason that it's shallow and immature, because it went nowhere. It's also the reason that I think Sakura has moved on by now. But that part is an opinion that Canon has yet to solidify, so we'll see....



> I am a woman.  And while logic isn't always relevant to the heart, I can't say I would get with someone I wasn't interested in.
> Besides, Naruto would exaperate her to no end.  Some of his basic personality traits she just doesn't handle.



I'm a guy, so.... No comment...?! XD From my POV, I'd be beating the crap out of Sasuke if I saw him treating Sakura like that, but whatever..... And I don't see Sakura having problems with Naruto, if that were the case, then they wouldn't be interacting the way they are now, would they? They still put up with each other day in and day out, heck, they enjoy spending time together as friends, so you can't really say that.


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## Griever (Mar 31, 2009)

Hmm you say she still Loves Sasuke? that has not been shown at all in Part 2 it's been shown that she cares for him but not loves, more along the lines of friend.
Naruto still feels the same about Sakura but he has grown up in the last 2 years that right there give NarSaku more value than SasuSaku while both Naruto and Sakura where 12 in Part 1 thay are now what was it 16? Well anyways them being 16 and Naruto still showing romantic interust in Sakura holds more value than the feelings that Sakura had for Sasuke in Part 1 of the manga because of the fact that she was 12 years old..... 

I think it is because of Naruto's life that he has had up till now that he has not gotten over Sakura with everyone hateing him and all.

but as to the comment about "Sakura retuneing the Favour" to Naruto for being willing to give up his happiness, i think you missed the whole point there it was more along the lines of why would she choose the asshole over prince charming? i guess one could say...

but lets be real here can you really take the love interust of a 12 year old girl or boy as truth? no no that is the last thing in the world that we can do i don't think anyone is still with or has any feelings for a girlfriend/boyfriend thay had when thay where 12 years old much less remember there Names.

and the last part.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Okay it was stated in the manga that Naruto's body was to small to contain the Kyuubi and that is why he is so hyper as his body grew his ability to contain the Stamina became i don't know better, anyways the Stamina was a big part of the reason that Naruto was crawling all over Sakura.


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## saasha (Mar 31, 2009)

Its really simple, guys. 

An established fact remains a fact until someone disproves it or the fact itself visible changes. 

The Earth is round.- Established fact until proven false or new discoveries are made.

Itachi massacred the entire Uchiha clan on a selfish whim (we learned this in Part 1)- It was an established fact until it was proven false in Part 2.

Sakura declared that she is so in love with Sasuke that she cant even stand it. (we learnt this in Part 1)- Its an Established fact & will remain so until Kishi decides to disprove it. Period.

I honestly feel sad for the narusaku fans who claim that Sakura isn't in love with Sasuke in Part 2, because it really makes them seem desperate & eager to grasp at straws, imo. Nothing in Part 2 disproves the established fact that Sakura is in love with Sasuke. 

Her reactions whenever Sasuke is mentioned are still as intense as ever. You ask for evidence to prove her love for sasuke, but dont you see that the fact sakura reacts still so intensely to sasuke even in Part 2 is proof enough that her feelings haven't changed? 

How do you differentiate b/w love & care? How do you figure that her intense reactions to sasuke are care while her intense reactions to naruto are love? 

We (sasusaku-ers) can say that it is love because of Sakura's already established confession in Part 1, not to mention sakura's paralysed, stuttering, transfixed state when she finally clapps eyes on sasuke at the reunion after 3 yrs being a clear indication that she is still hung up on him. What do narusaku-ers have other than interpretations & a deepening friendship to say that it is love & not care that drives her relationship with naruto?  

After the reunion, Naruto & sakura grieving alone & not seeking to comfort or not seeking comfort from each other is very significant. If they were chasing sasuke for each other only, then they would have instinctively reached for the other & shared their pain. It proves that each of them want Sasuke back for their own reasons, a private pain that neither wants to share with each other.   


If she was beginning to have romantic feelings for Naruto, the least she could have done was mention in passing to naruto that she wasn't interested in sasuke like that anymore.


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## Kathutet (Mar 31, 2009)

saasha said:


> Its really simple, guys.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


But does Sasuke show any signs of love for her? How can you say that it's 'love' when it's not mutual?

They do share their pain, but for God's sakes, it's not like they'll start to cry in each other's arms. That would be highly OOC. Their characters are not like that. They are both strong, independent shinobi. Not a bunch of pansy's/uke's.


----------



## Kage (Mar 31, 2009)

saasha said:


> I honestly feel sad for the narusaku fans who claim that Sakura isn't in love with Sasuke in Part 2, because it really makes them seem desperate & eager to grasp at straws, imo. Nothing in Part 2 disproves the established fact that Sakura is in love with Sasuke.



it's far more desperate to think that feelings can't change (and grasping at straws...i won't even get into _that_) and sakura will forever remain the pathetic 12-year old girl who was a hindrance to her team because she spent so much time worrying over a boy who wouldn't give her the time of day instead of training to better herself. willing to say anything to get him to stay with her forever (cause her being all alone and unhappy was her big selling point) despite admitting to the fact the he never talked to her, opened up to her and acted like he hated her. 

but that's okay since it's for the sake of such a _devoted true_ love of course. it's not sad to think that way at all.

it's just a coincidence that she became a more competent kunoichi in his absence.

nothing in part two confirms it either. her reactions to sasuke can never just be about wanting him home and safe it's always because of her love which she never bothers to bring up but that's okay too cause it's established fact. like naruto's crush on her only that's different because even if he hasn't said he doesn't have a crush on her anymore we can just assume otherwise cause he never mentions it and when he asks her on dates, blushes at the prospect of her feeding him and yells at sai for 'ruining a mood' he's only just joking around.



> Her reactions whenever Sasuke is mentioned are still as intense as ever. You ask for evidence to prove her love for sasuke, but dont you see that the fact sakura reacts still so intensely to sasuke even in Part 2 is proof enough that her feelings haven't changed?


she punched sai when he was bad mouthing him, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



was relieved when she discovered he was no longer in danger of losing his body to orochimaru


 and has a fair amount of determination to bring him home but otherwise seems to be able to function in most other missions/activities without thinking about him. unlike naruto who thinks about him when he trains, thinks about him when he's not, and is easily riled by just the mention of his name.


*Spoiler*: __ 



well up until recently where he handled it really well, ignoring pains jibe




yup. her reactions are absolutely _intense_.


> After the reunion, Naruto & sakura grieving alone & not seeking to comfort or not seeking comfort from each other is very significant. If they were chasing sasuke for each other only, then they would have instinctively reached for the other & shared their pain. It proves that each of them want Sasuke back for their own reasons, a private pain that neither wants to share with each other.


naruto is definitely the kind of person who shares his pain with others whenever the opportunity presents itself for self-gratification. sakura too.



> If she was beginning to have romantic feelings for Naruto, the least she could have done was mention in passing to naruto that she wasn't interested in sasuke like that anymore.



yes there is ample opportunity to discuss their love life's in the midst of the not so important things happening around them.


----------



## saasha (Mar 31, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> But does Sasuke show any signs of love for her? How can you say that it's 'love' when it's not mutual?



Sasuke does love her, it just isn't romantic as of now. And love doesn't have to be mutual for it to be called love. For example, Take a mother's unconditional love for a son who's ungrateful & only takes advantage of her... u're not going to say her love is void/null because her son can't be bothered to appreciate it will you? 

For that matter, take naruto's love for sasuke....isn't what naruto feels for sasuke love as well even if sasuke doesn't have the time to appreciate it as of now? Why should it be any different for Sakura?



> They do share their pain,



Nope, not with each other, & that makes all the difference to me.



> but for God's sakes, it's not like they'll start to cry in each other's arms. That would be highly OOC. Their characters are not like that. They are both strong, independent shinobi. Not a bunch of pansy's/uke's.




It would have been a step in the right direction for narusaku. They don't have to cry in each others arms, just simply sitting, leaning against each others backs with tears running down their faces would have sufficed, nothing OOC abt it. It wouldn't have deterred them from still remaining strong independent shinobi.


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## moonjump05 (Mar 31, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> No evidence for this, Kishi hasn't had Naruto deny them outright, only placed them on hold. And even then, at least it's there, even if it is comedic. Sakura hasn't said anything about Sasuke in that light since Part 1.



Hmmm, Sakura constantly denying date requests.
Naruto not really caring one way or the other.
Sakura crying over a picture with Sasuke in it with a crescent moon in the background.




> Again, it's been shown that the feelings still linger at the very least. It'd also be very OOC for him to just simply 'give up'. He's constantly said he'll never give up, ESPECIALLY in Part 2.



Nonserious barely there interest... okay.

And when has Naruto ever said internally or externally that Sakura's romantic acknowledgement is his goal?  He wants aqcknowledgement from her- just like everyone else.
The 'give up' isn't quite right.  He says he'll never go back on his word.  There is a difference.  And even if you want to use the 'give up' wording, since when was Sakura's returning of his romantic feelings ever that much of a priority for him?





> No, she wasn't lying, but they didn't deepen either. Sakura clearly stated that Sasuke never talked to her, the whole thing is that even though SHE tried, it didn't work out 'cause Sasuke *didn't care*. That's the reason that it's shallow and immature, because it went nowhere. It's also the reason that I think Sakura has moved on by now. But that part is an opinion that Canon has yet to solidify, so we'll see...



Her feelings for Sasuke deepened.  She tried to understand him as a person, she saw him at some of his lowest moments and still loved him.  
Sakura didn't love Sasuke in chapter 3, it was a childish selfish crush.  
And Sasuke, jerkwad that he is, did care.  Sure it wasn't necessarily romantic, but he was willing to die for her.
I'm not a SakuSasu fan, but I'm not blind.  Sakura went from a fangirling crush to understanding him as a person and attempting whatever she could to help him and that is not immature or shallow.  There was development from both sides as Sasuke also grew to care for Sakura as well.

And I haven't seen Sakura moving on either.  She clearly poured her heart out in chapter 181, was transfixed by the sight of him, learned all she could about his clan, cried over a picture of him after telling Naruto that crying wouldn't bring him back.  Where does any of this say she's moving on?




> I'm a guy, so.... No comment...?! XD From my POV, I'd be beating the crap out of Sasuke if I saw him treating Sakura like that, but whatever..... And I don't see Sakura having problems with Naruto, if that were the case, then they wouldn't be interacting the way they are now, would they? They still put up with each other day in and day out, heck, they enjoy spending time together as friends, so you can't really say that.



Actually Sasuke should beat the crap out of Sakura for treating Naruto like that...

But seriously, some of Naruto's basic personality traits irritate Sakura.  Sure they get alongwhen going after Sasuke well enough... most of the time... when Sakura isn't beating him or they completely fail to realize what makes the other tick.  Just getting along isn't enough.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 31, 2009)

saasha said:


> Sasuke does love her, it just isn't romantic as of now. And love doesn't have to be mutual for it to be called love. For example, Take a mother's unconditional love for a son who's ungrateful & only takes advantage of her... u're not going to say her love is void/null because her son can't be bothered to appreciate it will you?



What logic, does that mean Sasuke's love for Naruto can become romantic with the fact it's far more significant ?

The basis of any true love that's lasting needs to be based on mutual understanding and development - not to mention influence. SasuSaku lacks a lot of that.



> For that matter, take naruto's love for sasuke....isn't what naruto feels for sasuke love as well even if sasuke doesn't have the time to appreciate it as of now? Why should it be any different for Sakura?



Because he could kill her without thinking twice. With Naruto he didn't though he could have 1. A power up, 2. A general advantage, even related to pride [srs bsns] 3. An "important bond" [hammered by the manga and even SASUKE himself] broken for further strength 4. Kyuubi not thinking he's a pussy Uchiha for his _best_friend 



> It would have been a step in the right direction for narusaku. They don't have to cry in each others arms, just simply sitting, leaning against each others backs with tears running down their faces would have sufficed, nothing OOC abt it. It wouldn't have deterred them from still remaining strong independent shinobi.



What do you think this is?


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## Farih (Mar 31, 2009)

saasha said:


> I honestly feel sad for the narusaku fans who claim that Sakura isn't in love with Sasuke in Part 2, because it really makes them seem desperate & eager to grasp at straws, imo. Nothing in Part 2 disproves the established fact that Sakura is in love with Sasuke.



I honestly feel bad for the SasuSaku fans because nothing in part  indicates that those feelings are still there.  Meanwhile, NaruSaku at the very least has an "ambiguous" speech from Yamato about what Sakura feels for Naruto, and then Sakura offering to feed Naruto (which is, indeed, considered a romantic gesture in Japan when the girl isn't related to the boy).  



> Her reactions whenever Sasuke is mentioned are still as intense as ever. You ask for evidence to prove her love for sasuke, but dont you see that the fact sakura reacts still so intensely to sasuke even in Part 2 is proof enough that her feelings haven't changed?



So?  She doesn't want to see anyone badmouth her old teammate, but I don't see anything that can be romantic there.  It could all be friendship.



> How do you differentiate b/w love & care? How do you figure that her intense reactions to sasuke are care while her intense reactions to naruto are love?



The great thing about NaruSaku is, we don't really rely on reactions in part 2 because we have better development than that.  There's no denying that the NaruSaku bond has been emphasized in part 2, and most NaruSaku fans are of the opinion that that's being done to foreshadow the eventual romance between the two.

Like, for example, the Yamato speech.  Kishi specifically dedicated a few pages to these few lines of dialog with Sakura looking confused, Yamato smiling to himself and saying, "In reality you...."

It's not impossible that she still has feelings for Sasuke.  I just think that since her care for Naruto has been emphasized on more than one occasion in part 2, her feelings for him are growing into something more.



> We (sasusaku-ers) can say that it is love because of Sakura's already established confession in Part 1, not to mention sakura's paralysed, stuttering, transfixed state when she finally clapps eyes on sasuke at the reunion after 3 yrs being a clear indication that she is still hung up on him. What do narusaku-ers have other than interpretations & a deepening friendship to say that it is love & not care that drives her relationship with naruto?



IMO, Naruto's reaction to Sasuke was more intense.  Does that mean Naruto is in love with Sasuke?  No, because Sakura's reaction was normal after seeing her old teammate for the first time in three years.  This wasn't any ordinary reunion, as it emphasized the bonds between team 7, but that doesn't mean Sakura was in love with him.

And, hmm, if I remember correctly, Sakura knew that there was a chance she would see Sasuke again if they (Team Yamato) followed Orochimaru.  But when Naruto was injured, Sakura argued for waiting until Naruto got better and then completing the mission.  If Sakura really was in love with Sasuke at that point, she put the care of Naruto above the boy she was in love with...wait a minute...



> After the reunion, Naruto & sakura grieving alone & not seeking to comfort or not seeking comfort from each other is very significant. If they were chasing sasuke for each other only, then they would have instinctively reached for the other & shared their pain. It proves that each of them want Sasuke back for their own reasons, a private pain that neither wants to share with each other.



If that were the case, Kishi wouldn't have included the line of them getting through this "together".  He would've had them crying on their own, not exchanging anything.

And then what of that line in ch. 343 where Naruto tells Sakura it feels like they're getting closer to Sasuke "together".  That line had a positive effect of Sakura, as she was given an entire panel simply reacting to what Naruto said.  Why would Sakura be that affected to hear Naruto saying that if she really had this "private pain" for Sasuke? 




> If she was beginning to have romantic feelings for Naruto, the least she could have done was mention in passing to naruto that she wasn't interested in sasuke like that anymore.



Maybe Kishi wants to...idk...focus on shounen aspects of the manga rather than a convo about love interests?!  I'm just throwing that out there..


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## JERITROLL (Mar 31, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Hmmm, Sakura constantly denying date requests.
> Naruto not really caring one way or the other.


You're taking them out of context, each time there's a reason that she denys them. And don't you dare bring up the "No, Dumb@$$" pannel, 'cause not only was that an exaggeration of the real dialogue, but also when they were running late.



> Sakura crying over a picture with Sasuke in it with a crescent moon in the background.


That had Naruto in the same picure, might I add XD.



> Nonserious barely there interest... okay.


Again, at least I don't have to take it out of context XP. No offense meant, by the way, just in case that comes across a bit harsh.



> And when has Naruto ever said internally or externally that Sakura's romantic acknowledgement is his goal?  He wants aqcknowledgement from her- just like everyone else.
> The 'give up' isn't quite right.  He says he'll never go back on his word.  There is a difference.  And even if you want to use the 'give up' wording, since when was Sakura's returning of his romantic feelings ever that much of a priority for him?


Since Chapter 3. The goal of never giving up is everywhere, it's not just his word, either. And though there is a difference, he does make it clear that the same goes for his actions. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 This theme is actually all over the current arc's battle to boot. The 4th was telling him not to give up, and he's taken this to heart this last stretch.


 Granted, this is a different situation, but this is Naruto's mentality, don't discount it.



> Her feelings for Sasuke deepened.  She tried to understand him as a person, she saw him at some of his lowest moments and still loved him.
> Sakura didn't love Sasuke in chapter 3, it was a childish selfish crush.
> And Sasuke, jerkwad that he is, did care.  Sure it wasn't necessarily romantic, but he was willing to die for her.
> I'm not a SakuSasu fan, but I'm not blind.  Sakura went from a fangirling crush to understanding him as a person and attempting whatever she could to help him and that is not immature or shallow.  There was development from both sides as Sasuke also grew to care for Sakura as well.


And so was Naruto in the Gaara battle, don't forget that one either. Anyways, there's still no more than Naruto and Sakura have, heck, they have even more than just that. (On a side note, who are you a fan of anyway?)



> And I haven't seen Sakura moving on either.  She clearly poured her heart out in chapter 181, was transfixed by the sight of him, learned all she could about his clan, cried over a picture of him after telling Naruto that crying wouldn't bring him back.  Where does any of this say she's moving on?


In Part 2, Sakura has moved on. That's the main thing, it's been two and a half years, and she's finally getting the picture. Another thing to keep in mind, she's not going to compromise anymore. Sakura blatantly gets involved the next time they meet with Sasuke, and it doesn't look like she's too pleased to see him. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Even during the arc they were just recently chasing after Sasuke in, it's never hinted at that Sakura is there with this reason in mind. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke haven't been mentioned so far, so until they bring them up again, it's safe to say that she's moved on. In my opinion, at least, don't take that one as me saying anything more.






> Actually Sasuke should beat the crap out of Sakura for treating Naruto like that...



Okay, I somewhat agree, but she's gotten better since then, so...



> But seriously, some of Naruto's basic personality traits irritate Sakura.  Sure they get alongwhen going after Sasuke well enough... most of the time... when Sakura isn't beating him or they completely fail to realize what makes the other tick.  Just getting along isn't enough.


Umm, it's not just when they're going after Sasuke. It's even when they're in the village, just resting between missions. Sakura isn't constantly beating on Naruto, I think It's happened maybe three times in Part two, last time she was aggressive with him was yelling at him 'cause they were going to be late.


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## Hikui (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, I'm back into the debate after 10 or so pages. 
I'll try to keep my mind open, I'm looking forward to be convinced. 



TwilightLink20xx said:


> No, she wasn't lying, but they didn't deepen either. Sakura clearly stated that Sasuke never talked to her, the whole thing is that even though SHE tried, it didn't work out 'cause Sasuke didn't care. That's the reason that it's shallow and immature, because it went nowhere. It's also the reason that I think Sakura has moved on by now. *But that part is an opinion that Canon has yet to solidify, so we'll see....*



Agreed on the bold part. Other than that you can't say Sakura's feelings didn't deepen, the fact that her love for Sasuke was stated as 'selfish' does not mean her feelings weren't serious. You can't disregard Part 1 as a whole and say Sakura's feelings for Sasuke didn't grow from a fangirl crush, because otherwise Sasuke would have never considered her EVEN a comrade, she was just an annoying pest at the begging. In the begging her feelings for Sasuke were shallow but they grew into something more genuine (albeit selfish for some), when she realized she couldn't do something for Sasuke's sake (and Team 7 as a whole) that's when she really started to grow. 

And you can't say the reason why her feelings they were shallow and immature is because Sasuke didn't care and they went nowhere. Honestly, take Hinata for example, her feelings for Naruto have gone nowhere (as in they're not a couple) but you can't seriously say that her feelings are immature. JUST NO.

If I misunderstood you, please elaborate.



Grieverff8 said:


> Hmm you say she still Loves Sasuke? that has not been shown at all in Part 2 it's been shown that she cares for him but not loves, more along the lines of friend.
> Naruto still feels the same about Sakura but he has grown up in the last 2 years that right there give NarSaku more value than SasuSaku while both Naruto and Sakura where 12 in Part 1 thay are now what was it 16? Well anyways them being 16 and Naruto still showing romantic interust in Sakura holds more value than the feelings that Sakura had for Sasuke in Part 1 of the manga because of the fact that she was 12 years old.....



I won't touch the whole "Can you say she still loves Sasuke? argument", to me it's just plain pointless and a flame bait. I will believe that until it is stated false. PERIOD. (I don't even ship them that much.) It would've been anticlimactic if Kishimoto had outrageously announced Sakura still loved Sasuke from the start of Part 2. Would we be here debating for Sakura's feelings now if that had happened?  (Probably...)

Also, you can't say Naruto's feelings for Sakura have more value than Sakura's for Sasuke just because he's 16 now (and asked her to couple of dates) and Sakura was 12 when last stated she loved Sasuke. First, Sakura still loves Sasuke even if people claim it isn't romantic. Second, Sakura's feeling for Sasuke played a great part of her character and developed through all Part 1 continuously, Naruto has only showed us a couple of instances that indicates us he still has some sort of crush on her (he still loves her, just not so strongly in the romantic department). 

So really, that's just a false premise. 



Grieverff8 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Okay it was stated in the manga that Naruto's body was to small to contain the Kyuubi and that is why he is so hyper as his body grew his ability to contain the Stamina became i don't know better, anyways the Stamina was a big part of the reason that Naruto was crawling all over Sakura.



*Spoiler*: __ 



I never read that, care to show us where? That said, I don't think that's of much importance. It was still immature BACK in CHAPTER 3. 






Kitsune Naruto said:


> But does Sasuke show any signs of love for her? How can you say that it's 'love' when it's not mutual?



I know they've already answered tot his but love doesn't have to be mutual to be love. Just a reminder, NaruSaku is still not mutual ROMANTIC love. 



kageneko said:


> it's far more desperate to think that feelings can't change (and grasping at straws...i won't even get into _that_) and sakura will forever remain the pathetic 12-year old girl who was a hindrance to her team because she spent so much time worrying over a boy who wouldn't give her the time of day instead of training to better herself. willing to say anything to get him to stay with her forever (cause her being all alone and unhappy was her big selling point) despite admitting to the fact the he never talked to her, opened up to her and acted like he hated her.....ETC...ETC



I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you stopped nitpicking and using sarcastic remarks. 

You don't have to bitter about it, ONE of Sakura's MAIN motivations is to get Sasuke back and that's a PART of why she got stronger. It doesn't matter if you think it's pathetic, it's just FACT. That's just how love is sometimes (and how Kishimoto decided to portray it, he said so himself. The SasuSaku relationship was not meant to be perfect or mutual in the begging -who knows later. The relationship was selfish and flawed, it's human). 

Other than that, (can anyone) care explain why can Sakura get over Sasuke and Naruto can't get over Sakura? (In a respectful and clear way may I add). I just don't get the double standards. 

That said, please don't use the Naruto "never gives up" argument", to me it's too general to be taken seriously. 



farihstar said:


> I honestly feel bad for the SasuSaku fans because nothing in part 2 indicates that those feelings are still there.  Meanwhile, NaruSaku at the very least has an "ambiguous" speech from Yamato about what Sakura feels for Naruto, and then Sakura offering to feed Naruto (which is, indeed, considered a romantic gesture in Japan when the girl isn't related to the boy).



I say Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are ambiguous, does that means it's in common ground with NaruSaku? 	

And almost about anything is considered romantic IRL Japan. But I'll give you that, it had some 'sort' of romantic innuendo even if it was comic relief. 



farihstar said:


> So?  She doesn't want to see anyone badmouth her old teammate, but I don't see anything that can be romantic there.  It could all be friendship.



It could. It could not. 

Ambiguous:
1) having more than one possible meaning
2) open to two or more interpretations; or of uncertain nature or significance; or (often) intended to mislead
3)having no intrinsic or objective meaning

*It's ambiguous.  *





farihstar said:


> The great thing about NaruSaku is, we don't really rely on reactions in part 2 because we have better development than that.  There's no denying that the NaruSaku bond has been emphasized in part 2, and most NaruSaku fans are of the opinion that that's being done to foreshadow the eventual romance between the two.
> 
> Like, for example, the Yamato speech.  Kishi specifically dedicated a few pages to these few lines of dialog with Sakura looking confused, Yamato smiling to himself and saying, "In reality you...."
> 
> It's not impossible that she still has feelings for Sasuke.  I just think that since her care for Naruto has been emphasized on more than one occasion in part 2, her feelings for him are growing into something more.



Sakura cares for Naruto, that's clear. Whether it's romantic or not is ambiguous, so are her feelings for Sasuke. 

I would take Yamato's speech as a grain of salt. It's misleading, Kishimoto gave Hinata's confession important panels and a very dramatic effect. That doesn't mean it will be cannon, tho. 



farihstar said:


> And, hmm, if I remember correctly, Sakura knew that there was a chance she would see Sasuke again if they (Team Yamato) followed Orochimaru.  But when Naruto was injured, Sakura argued for waiting until Naruto got better and then completing the mission.  If Sakura really was in love with Sasuke at that point, she put the care of Naruto above the boy she was in love with...wait a minute...
> 
> If that were the case, Kishi wouldn't have included the line of them getting through this "together".  He would've had them crying on their own, not exchanging anything.
> 
> And then what of that line in ch. 343 where Naruto tells Sakura it feels like they're getting closer to Sasuke "together".  That line had a positive effect of Sakura, as she was given an entire panel simply reacting to what Naruto said.  Why would Sakura be that affected to hear Naruto saying that if she really had this "private pain" for Sasuke?




First, Sakura, of course, wasn't about to leave Naruto behind. He has done a lot for her, he risked his life, they are going after Sasuke together, THEY ARE CLOSE FRIENDS. SO NO...

Don't make it sound as if it is romantic.

Second, the reason why that comment affected Sakura is not mainly because Naruto said, it's because of what he said. Through all Part 1, Sakura wasn't able to help Sasuke at all, so for Naruto to acknowledge her that she's making her part ("we're in this together"), that she's contributing and helping get Sasuke back this time, when he was the only that did something, meant a lot to her. She doesn't want to feel like a hindrance anymore, even when sometimes she still feels like that.

Continues in next post...


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## Hikui (Mar 31, 2009)

Continues....(this is long )



TwilightLink20xx said:


> In Part 2, Sakura has moved on. That's the main thing, it's been two and a half years, and she's finally getting the picture. Another thing to keep in mind, she's not going to compromise anymore. Sakura blatantly gets involved the next time they meet with Sasuke, and it doesn't look like she's too pleased to see him.



Having Sakura move on without Sasuke's acknowledgment, seems to be very void and just, meaningless. People say that she should/could have gotten over him, but truth is Sakura never really got closure. That's just my opinion.

Kishimoto likes to play emotions, that's why I don't think he would let Sakura get over Sasuke during the time-skip. 

To me she was more determined than "non pleased" to see him.  

The difference between Part 1 Sakura and Part 2 Sakura concerning Sasuke is that she's no longer going to dwell about her feelings, or cry, or be useless, quite the contrary, she's determined to use action to bring him back, even if it meant she would have to use force. (Please don't niptick on the whole "she can't get Sasuke back against his will" argument, Naruto is doing the same). 

She's actively taking part. If you love someone show it, not just say it. That and the dramatic tension, even if they are little...Kishimoto likes to play up his "romantic moments". XD (reference: Hinata's confession....do I still have to use spoiler tags?)

Two questions: What do you mean by she's finally getting the picture? and what do you also mean with not compromising anymore? To me, she seems very compromised to bring Sasuke back... 

Oh that was long....I wonder if I'll be back....
I'm surprised I defended SasuSaku so much when I'm not even in the fanclub...

 I guess I just had to defend my interpretation on Sakura's feelings.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 31, 2009)

> But does Sasuke show any signs of love for her? How can you say that it's 'love' when it's not mutual?


It may not be love, this is true. But then, what is he implying with lines like:

"I can't forgive _even you_ [if you take that away from me]".

Then Shikamaru repeating the same words later on: "_Even you_ couldn't convince him [or: bring him back; translations vary slightly], right?"

Where does it imply that Sasuke singling out Sakura as "even you" means she's clean-cut, explicitly his friend and nothing more? Frankly, that sounds ambiguous. Those lines show some form of reciprocation from Sasuke's side, whether something other than a friend, or something else.


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## Griever (Mar 31, 2009)

@Hikui.
well what i mean By Sakura's crush on Sasuke not holding the same ground as Naruto's crush on Sakura, is because a 12 year old girls crush does not hold to much baring with me...

Hmm i'm new to the site so i don't really get how saying Sakura has not shown any romantic feeling for Sasuke in part 2 is a flamebait...? 


*Spoiler*: __ 



I can't remember the exact chapter that is was said that Naruto's body was too small to contain the Kyuubi... but i am pretty sure that eather Jiraiya or Ebisu said it/thought it when Naruto was doing his walking on Water training.


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## JERITROLL (Mar 31, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Agreed on the bold part. Other than that you can't say Sakura's feelings didn't deepen, the fact that her love for Sasuke was stated as 'selfish' does not mean her feelings weren't serious. You can't disregard Part 1 as a whole and say Sakura's feelings for Sasuke didn't grow from a fangirl crush, because otherwise Sasuke would have never considered her EVEN a comrade, she was just an annoying pest at the begging. In the begging her feelings for Sasuke were shallow but they grew into something more genuine (albeit selfish for some), when she realized she couldn't do something for Sasuke's sake (and Team 7 as a whole) that's when she really started to grow.
> 
> And you can't say the reason why her feelings they were shallow and immature is because Sasuke didn't care and they went nowhere. Honestly, take Hinata for example, her feelings for Naruto have gone nowhere (as in they're not a couple) but you can't seriously say that her feelings are immature. JUST NO.
> 
> If I misunderstood you, please elaborate.



Okay, yeah, that wasn't what I was trying to say there. Her moving on is what I was saying was an opinion. For me, it appears there's enough evidence to point towards that, but she hasn't outright said that, so it isn't an undenyable truth. Thus, simply my educated or mislead, depending on Kishi's mood opinion. 



Hikui said:


> Having Sakura move on without Sasuke's acknowledgment, seems to be very void and just, meaningless. People say that she should/could have gotten over him, but truth is Sakura never really got closure. That's just my opinion.
> 
> Kishimoto likes to play emotions, that's why I don't think he would let Sakura get over Sasuke during the time-skip.


I can somewhat agree with this. As I've said, I'm not sure she's moved on 100%, but there's enough threads to show that she's at least far enough in that process that it's not on her mind.



> To me she was more determined than "non pleased" to see him.
> 
> The difference between Part 1 Sakura and Part 2 Sakura concerning Sasuke is that she's no longer going to dwell about her feelings, or cry, or be useless, quite the contrary, she's determined to use action to bring him back, even if it meant she would have to use force. (Please don't niptick on the whole "she can't get Sasuke back against his will" argument, Naruto is doing the same).
> 
> ...


@the tags, yeah you do, but that's because of the fact that we're in the HoU, and that's the rules for Manga material.

Okay, I won't, because I don't approve of him doing that either. Besides the point, they're in it because he's their friend, not because of Sakura's crush. 

While I do agree actions speak louder than words, that's the whole reason I don't think SS can work. Because of Sasuke's actions. Sakura was throwing herself after someone that could have cared less, and I think that with the maturity that she's gained, it's one of the things that she no longer will chase after. But again, just opinion, and Kishi hasn't thrown the bone on this JUST yet, but I sense it coming soon.

As for the spoiler tagged part.... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



It hasn't been resolved yet, and something tells me that it's not going to be positive for Hinata. Yes, she's going to live, but I highly doubt anything will come of that. She did more damage than help, and that's why Katsuyu was trying to keep everyone from getting involved. It's better not to use a plot-line that hasn't had any resolve whatsoever, we don't even know what's going through her mind right now, for all we know she could be regretting her actions, or be scared to death of the guy! Just my thoughts, though, we'll wait and see on this one, we should have our answers this and next week.






> Two questions: What do you mean by she's finally getting the picture? and what do you also mean with not compromising anymore? To me, she seems very compromised to bring Sasuke back...
> 
> Oh that was long....I wonder if I'll be back....
> I'm surprised I defended SasuSaku so much when I'm not even in the fanclub...
> ...


By finally getting the picture, I was refering to the fact that Sasuke didn't care. Sakura, towards the end of Part 1, clearly knew that she and Sasuke really didn't have much of a relationship, and she knows that Naruto and Sasuke were closer (as bothers, just making that clear). 

By compromising, I mean that she won't abandon her other responsibilities for her (what I believe to be) past goals. Even though getting Sasuke back is high on her and Naruto's list, she knows that it's not the priority when there's other work that needs to be done. 

Actually, that's kinda where the whole story's been headed XD. Anyways, I think the word you were searching for was determined, and while such is the case, I just don't think that her motivations are the same anymore. But we'll see. The manga is speeding up, Kishi's throwing things at us we never expected, and soon enough, we will have our answers.


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## xVenomousrage (Mar 31, 2009)

> And Sasuke, jerkwad that he is, did care. Sure it wasn't necessarily romantic, but he was willing to die for her.



Didn't Sasuke Die for naruto(Then came back to life. XD) In The Zabuza arc?


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 31, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> It may not be love, this is true. But then, what is he implying with lines like:
> 
> "I can't forgive _even you_ [if you take that away from me]".
> 
> ...



Wow Shikamaru is an even better matchmaker than Yamato !

"I won't forgive even you" and then Sasuke turns to Naruto in acknowledgement? That BURNS, not give support to SasuSaku. She was a worried teammate, therefore the context makes sense for him to say that. And using "I won't forgive even you" basically digs your own grave in trying to give the pairing support, since it suggests "Sorry Sakura, you're not as important."

Shikamaru didn't hint anything, because due to context, "not even you were able" means that a teammate of Sasuke who was in love with him wasn't able to stop him from leaving. That's even a bigger emphasis on why SasuSaku fails, and why Sakura says to Naruto probably only he can bring back Sasuke. You are using evidence without taking in consideration other factors or context. Shikamaru, in Part 2 nonetheless, goes up to Naruto to say he'll help him with Sasuke next time, and seems to pick up on Naruto's pain.

THAT is explicit and can be suggestive, not a line such as that which could have referred to Kakashi as well had he showed up (hope you get what I mean). Shikamaru heard what had happened but doesn't seem a better judge than the reader who has seen closely Team 7 interaction to be assuming something more.

@hikui- Where is Kageneko tremendously nitpicking? Sakura's love for Sasuke has been described as selfish and has given highly negative vibes. Also the sense of pain of loneliness Sasuke would feel has been expressed exclusively to Naruto and Team 7 separately, never ONCE to Sakura alone. That is why SasuSaku is weak in providing romantic evidence that cannot be obliterated by even NaruSaku. Ambiguity fails to even scratch the consistancy of other pairings. That's all. It's not saying Sasuke didn't care for her and what not. But no one can assume Sakura had "special" hold on Sasuke's emotions [like Naruto], or that he had to take her love seriously in a romantic manner. Sakura gives a lot more to Naruto in comparison.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 31, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Wow Shikamaru is an even better matchmaker than Yamato !
> 
> "I won't forgive even you" and then Sasuke turns to Naruto in acknowledgement?



Naruto was _shouting_ at him there. Not only would Sasuke automatically turn toward the louder teammate due to sheer need to get Naruto to shut up before he makes Sasuke go permanently deaf, there is also another factor with the context of the scene. Sasuke was just trying to keep Sakura from raising her hand to tell the proctors about his curse seal, but Naruto shouting draws just as much attention as a raised hand. Sakura was mostly placated by what Sasuke had just said to her, but Naruto would need to be talked to himself or his shouting _would_ draw attention. And the words Sasuke uses happen to be exactly what it took to get Naruto quiet...




> Shikamaru didn't hint anything, because due to context, "not even you were able" means that a teammate of Sasuke who was in love with him wasn't able to stop him from leaving. *That's even a bigger emphasis on why SasuSaku fails*, and why Sakura says to Naruto probably only he can bring back Sasuke. You are using evidence without taking in consideration other factors or context. Shikamaru, in Part 2 nonetheless, goes up to Naruto to say he'll help him with Sasuke next time, and seems to pick up on Naruto's pain.



Sasuke was leaving that night in order to seek his vengeance. Nothing comes between Sasuke and revenge, not even his bond with Naruto. He granted Naruto the concession of sparing his life. He granted Sakura the concession of thanking her. We still don't know exactly what he was referring to with that thank you, but the fact is, how often does Uchiha Sasuke thank people? By that line alone, he was acknowledging that she had done something special for him, since he is never seen even thanking Kakashi for training him individually before his third round Chuunin Exam match and teaching him Kakashi's personal move Chidori.

Also, what had Sakura done to warrant thanks that teaching Sasuke a personal and high-level jutsu wasn't equal to? It certainly wasn't for helping him in battle. The only things Sakura has done for Sasuke are emotional things, things that would give her a "special" hold on Sasuke's emotions (in response to your comment later in this post).



> @hikui- Where is Kageneko tremendously nitpicking? Sakura's love for Sasuke has been described as selfish and has given highly negative vibes. *Also the sense of pain of loneliness Sasuke would feel has been expressed exclusively to Naruto and Team 7 separately, never ONCE to Sakura alone.*



In regards to the bolded part, in chapter 7 Sasuke commented to Sakura alone that there's a man only he can kill... that time, he was crying... he is an avenger.

son

Naruto and Kakashi along with Sakura had already received the Avenger Speech when Kakashi asked them to describe their goals, but Sasuke did not mention that he was crying then. This scene is actually the first time we hear that particular detail, and he says it to Sakura.



> That is why SasuSaku is weak in providing romantic evidence that cannot be obliterated by even NaruSaku. Ambiguity fails to even scratch the consistancy of other pairings. That's all. It's not saying Sasuke didn't care for her and what not. *But no one can assume Sakura had "special" hold on Sasuke's emotions [like Naruto], or that he had to take her love seriously in a romantic manner.* Sakura gives a lot more to Naruto in comparison.



See my comment on the "thank you" a couple of paragraphs ago.

As for taking her love seriously in a romantic manner, he is an avenger, as he has commented I don't know how many times in the series. He believes that hatred makes you strong and that other bonds weaken that hatred. How would taking Sakura's love seriously in a romantic manner help with feeding his hatred and increasing his power to kill Itachi? He was able to build a friendship bond with Naruto through that evolving from their rivalry, but Sakura had always made it very clear that she was pursuing Sasuke romantically. It would be impossible for him to develop a bond with Sakura like the one he had with Naruto because of this fact. While his rivalry with Naruto could be used by Sasuke to prove what a wonderful ninja he is and of his potential to actually surpass Itachi, there is no way that a bond with Sakura could be formed from this. Romance, in Sasuke's mind, does not make you stronger. If he took her feelings seriously in a manner that was at all romantic, it would only be a distraction from his quest to kill Itachi, and, as said before, nothing comes between Sasuke and killing his brother.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 31, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Naruto was _shouting_ at him there. Not only would Sasuke automatically turn toward the louder teammate due to sheer need to get Naruto to shut up before he makes Sasuke go permanently deaf, there is also another factor with the context of the scene. Sasuke was just trying to keep Sakura from raising her hand to tell the proctors about his curse seal, but Naruto shouting draws just as much attention as a raised hand. Sakura was mostly placated by what Sasuke had just said to her, but Naruto would need to be talked to himself or his shouting _would_ draw attention. And the words Sasuke uses happen to be exactly what it took to get Naruto quiet...



Well yeah according to Sauce Naruto wasn't merely yelling at him [for Sakura's sake], cos he flashbacks that moment which causes his CURSE SEAL to go away. But what I said about Sasuke still saying he wouldn't forgive her not supporting the pairing is still valid.



> Sasuke was leaving that night in order to seek his vengeance. Nothing comes between Sasuke and revenge, not even his bond with Naruto. He granted Naruto the concession of sparing his life. He granted Sakura the concession of thanking her.



He granted Naruto the concession of acknowledgment when doing so would have denied his reason of existance -Kakashi.
He granted Naruto the concession of admitting they were bonded in a significant way which would cause him to suffer _pain of loneliness_.
He granted Naruto the concession of constant attention and "closest" friend - not to mention equal.
He granted Naruto the concession the latter is willing to die for without looking like a selfish self-depreciating pushover [no offensive to Sakura, but her wooing of Sasuke in Part 1 isn't my ideal of romance].

I'm going to be blunt. If SASUKE now can't even love NARUTO, he is NOT going to be loving SAKURA.



> We still don't know exactly what he was referring to with that thank you, but the fact is, how often does Uchiha Sasuke thank people? By that line alone, he was acknowledging that she had done something special for him, since he is never seen even thanking Kakashi for training him individually before his third round Chuunin Exam match and teaching him Kakashi's personal move Chidori.



They were friends. He's leaving. "Thank you [but no thank you]". I really wonder how that can even can compare with anything when in the one-on-one emotional exchange with Naruto during the VotE he was even more mentally gone but still reacting more 



> Also, what had Sakura done to warrant thanks that teaching Sasuke a personal and high-level jutsu wasn't equal to? It certainly wasn't for helping him in battle. The only things Sakura has done for Sasuke are emotional things, things that would give her a "special" hold on Sasuke's emotions (in response to your comment later in this post).



Why does he visualize Naruto too when she mentions loneliness from love towards him then ? Failing to be impressed.



> In regards to the bolded part, in chapter 7 Sasuke commented to Sakura alone that there's a man only he can kill... that time, he was crying... he is an avenger.
> 
> is Naruto blushing while thinking about Sasuke?
> 
> Naruto and Kakashi along with Sakura had already received the Avenger Speech when Kakashi asked them to describe their goals, but Sasuke did not mention that he was crying then. This scene is actually the first time we hear that particular detail, and he says it to Sakura.



Sasuke doesn't mind admitting things to Sakura cos she doesn't challenge him in any way  in other words, she was good "I can bother to say whatever I feel like to you" material. He's capable of understanding she wasn't only good for _Sasuke-kun, you're so cool_ .

Sasuke isn't made of stone, or stupid. More reason I have to think he didn't give hoot about her romantically. Romance needs compelling emotion, not half-assed friendship. He admitted to Naruto he gave up his LIFE instead of having revenge - still failing to be impressed. 



> Romance, in Sasuke's mind, does not make you stronger. If he took her feelings seriously in a manner that was at all romantic, it would only be a distraction from his quest to kill Itachi, and, as said before, nothing comes between Sasuke and killing his brother.



Why didn't he kill Naruto then ?


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## Hikui (Mar 31, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> Okay, yeah, that wasn't what I was trying to say there. Her moving on is what I was saying was an opinion. For me, it appears there's enough evidence to point towards that, but she hasn't outright said that, so it isn't an undenyable truth. Thus, simply my educated or mislead, depending on Kishi's mood opinion.
> 
> I can somewhat agree with this. As I've said, I'm not sure she's moved on 100%, but there's enough threads to show that she's at least far enough in that process that it's not on her mind.



I think...I agree. 



TwilightLink20xx said:


> @the tags, yeah you do, but that's because of the fact that we're in the HoU, and that's the rules for Manga material.


Thanks!



TwilightLink20xx said:


> While I do agree actions speak louder than words, that's the whole reason I don't think SS can work. Because of Sasuke's actions. Sakura was throwing herself after someone that could have cared less, and I think that with the maturity that she's gained, it's one of the things that she no longer will chase after. But again, just opinion, and Kishi hasn't thrown the bone on this JUST yet, but I sense it coming soon.



Agreed. The fact that I think Sakura is still in love with him doesn't mean I think SasuSaku will happen. I'm just not very hopeful about them. But who knows, Kishimoto can always do another time-skip. 

I see a resolve coming soon too....



TwilightLink20xx said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It hasn't been resolved yet, and something tells me that it's not going to be positive for Hinata. Yes, she's going to live, but I highly doubt anything will come of that. She did more damage than help, and that's why Katsuyu was trying to keep everyone from getting involved. It's better not to use a plot-line that hasn't had any resolve whatsoever, we don't even know what's going through her mind right now, for all we know she could be regretting her actions, or be scared to death of the guy! Just my thoughts, though, we'll wait and see on this one, we should have our answers this and next week.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree! Imho, Kishimoto had given Hinata too much emphasis in the latest chaptersto just throw it away. If he had wanted to resolve that part of Hinata's theme he could've drawn a less dramatic confession with much less importance. Naruto would've rejected her and they're all "happy" (?). But he didn't, so if he plans to still COMPLETELY reject Hinata then he'll probably gain lots of people's hate and lose some people's respect. Not mine but you get my point.
So at this point it'll be very hard for me like NaruSaku, not happening. That said, if Sakura confesses I don't think she'll be able to top Hinata's confession without turning a rip-off. I just don't see that happening believably. 






TwilightLink20xx said:


> By finally getting the picture, I was referring to the fact that Sasuke didn't care. Sakura, towards the end of Part 1, clearly knew that she and Sasuke really didn't have much of a relationship, and she knows that Naruto and Sasuke were closer (as bothers, just making that clear).
> 
> By compromising, I mean that she won't abandon her other responsibilities for her (what I believe to be) past goals. Even though getting Sasuke back is high on her and Naruto's list, she knows that it's not the priority when there's other work that needs to be done.
> 
> Actually, that's kinda where the whole story's been headed XD. Anyways, I think the word you were searching for was determined, and while such is the case, I just don't think that her motivations are the same anymore. But we'll see. The manga is speeding up, Kishi's throwing things at us we never expected, and soon enough, we will have our answers.



Interpretation, not something considered to be CANNON:
Well, I think Sakura does get the picture. Imo, she is no longer fighting for Sasuke's love, she knows he doesn't love her that way but that doesn't mean her feelings for him will change. She still loves him, she's still in love with him and she's going to show him and bring him back. I don't think him loving her back matters that much. Matters of the heart are hard to understand. That is as far as it goes with my understanding of Sakura, I hope it makes sense. (It does in my head ). If Sakura decides to get over Sasuke, I think I'll have to be by the end of the manga or something. They need to clear things out. (<-- comment not expected to be debated). 

I also foresee something unexpected. Hahaha. 



izzyisozaki said:


> @hikui- Where is Kageneko tremendously nitpicking? Sakura's love for Sasuke has been described as selfish and has given highly negative vibes. Also the sense of pain of loneliness Sasuke would feel has been expressed exclusively to Naruto and Team 7 separately, never ONCE to Sakura alone. That is why SasuSaku is weak in providing romantic evidence that cannot be obliterated by even NaruSaku. Ambiguity fails to even scratch the consistancy of other pairings. That's all. It's not saying Sasuke didn't care for her and what not. But no one can assume Sakura had "special" hold on Sasuke's emotions [like Naruto], or that he had to take her love seriously in a romantic manner. Sakura gives a lot more to Naruto in comparison.



I didn't say tremendously, don't exaggerate. If you find my use of words unclear and rude/condescending, then I'm sorry. We shouldn't get heated in a debate. That's what I meant. 

I agree, Sasuke's bond with Sakura is not as strong as Naruto's and it's completely different. The reason Sakura gives a lot more to Naruto is because Naruto accepts it, that's all.

Sasuke is not ready to give or accept anyone's feelings, now. Not even Naruto's, hopefully we'll see how that develops .


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## Erendhyl (Mar 31, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> He granted Naruto the concession of acknowledgment when doing so would have denied his reason of existance -Kakashi.
> He granted Naruto the concession of admitting they were bonded in a significant way which would cause him to suffer _pain of loneliness_.
> He granted Naruto the concession of constant attention and "closest" friend - not to mention equal.
> He granted Naruto the concession the latter is willing to die for without looking like a selfish self-depreciating pushover [no offensive to Sakura, but her wooing of Sasuke in Part 1 isn't my ideal of romance].
> ...



When did I say that Sasuke didn't love Naruto? I think that Sasuke loves Naruto more than he loves anyone else in the series 
*Spoiler*: __ 



With the possible exception of Itachi after hearing Madara's revelation.


 I agree with you that his bond with Naruto is not entirely platonic love, but I do not think that it is romantic. Because of the way I view their bonds, I don't view it as any problem for the SasuSaku pairing that Sasuke loves Naruto. (And no, I am not saying that I think that his bond with Sakura, if it ever becomes romantic, should take second place in his life to his bond with Naruto. The only things I am saying with this are that I do not deny that Sasuke loves Naruto, and that I don't find it to be romantic love that the two of them share.)



> They were friends. He's leaving. "Thank you [but no thank you]". I really wonder how that can even can compare with anything when in the one-on-one emotional exchange with Naruto during the VotE he was even more mentally gone but still reacting more



Yes. They were friends. And Sakura just confessed that she loves him more than everyone else combined.

Sasuke was severing his bonds with Konoha that night. He wasn't coming back for years, if ever. And Sakura confessed to him. It would have been kinder to say "Shut up, you are a creepy, obsessed stalker; stop following me." The line itself is cruel, but it at least sends the message that he doesn't want to be followed. It sure does a better job of cutting his bond with her than _thanking_ her.

As for this scene comparing with the Valley of the End... this was one chapter long. And the Valley of the End was the greatest part of the series. Period. Sasuke and Naruto bond mutually over beating the snot out of each other. Sakura bonds through emotions, while Sasuke tries to deny that he has any. He is going to open up more and produce more gorgeous emotional scenes while beating up Naruto than if Sakura talks to him about feelings.




> Why does he visualize Naruto too when she mentions loneliness from love towards him then ? Failing to be impressed.



I never tried to say that Sasuke did not have a deep and meaningful bond with Naruto as well. The only thing that I was trying to do was respond to your comment that Sakura has no special emotional hold on him.



> Sasuke doesn't mind admitting things to Sakura cos she doesn't challenge him in any way  in other words, she was good "I can bother to say whatever I feel like to you" material. He's capable of understanding she wasn't only good for _Sasuke-kun, you're so cool_ .



Your original comment was that he never shares things with Sakura in particular, only with Team 7 or Naruto in particular. I provided with you of an example of a time to the contrary, and now you're saying that said example doesn't mean anything?



> Sasuke isn't made of stone, or stupid. More reason I have to think he didn't give hoot about her romantically. Romance needs compelling emotion, not half-assed friendship. He admitted to Naruto he gave up his LIFE instead of having revenge - still failing to be impressed.



Once again, I was not trying to provide impressive canon evidence that SasuSaku is an undeniable pairing. I was just providing an example to counter your comment that he never shares anything with Sakura specifically.

Also, you say that "he admitted to Naruto he gave up his LIFE instead of having revenge"... whose life are you referring to there? Are you referring to where he spared Naruto's life at the Valley of the End instead of killing him for the Mangekyo? (Your wording just confused me, and I seriously would like to know the answer to this.)



> Why didn't he kill Naruto then ?



I'm sorry for forgetting that. I concede to you on this point. May I rephrase my previous argument?

As I said in my past post, Sasuke's bond with Naruto developed from their rivalry, which is why he allowed it to develop. He and Naruto related in areas that he did not relate to anyone else and formed Sasuke's most precious bond. As I also said in my previous post, Sakura's bond with Sasuke was always overshadowed by her desire for romantic acknowledgment from him, thus Sasuke was less willing to allow her to grow close to him. He was already taking a death blow for Naruto before he'd really admitted to himself how much Naruto meant to him. For Sakura though, there was no bond while struggling together to improve themselves; there was no literal demonstration of "I will die to protect you." Her desire for romantic acknowledgment only slowed their bonding further; as I said before, rivalry can help him grow strong, romance can't. With Sakura, there simply wasn't enough time for them to bond between the Land of Waves, when his teammates stopped being dead weights, and his one-sided battle with Itachi, where they started being unnecessary bonds that distracted him from his hatred.

Naruto was spared because he was, quite simply, the most precious person to Sasuke at that time.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 31, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> When did I say that Sasuke didn't love Naruto? I think that Sasuke loves Naruto more than he loves anyone else in the series
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Darnit Erendhyl I can't argue adequately against so much logic 

Anyway, I don't support the notion of being in the dark, dark, shadow of your boyfriend's bestfriend  thus it's similar to the reason I hate NARUSAKU too



> Yes. They were friends. And Sakura just confessed that she loves him more than everyone else combined.



And _exaggeration_ didn't cross your mind?



> Sasuke was severing his bonds with Konoha that night. He wasn't coming back for years, if ever. And Sakura confessed to him. It would have been kinder to say "Shut up, you are a creepy, obsessed stalker; stop following me." The line itself is cruel, but it at least sends the message that he doesn't want to be followed. It sure does a better job of cutting his bond with her than _thanking_ her.



Sasuke is brutally honest, he's not going to act any different.



> As for this scene comparing with the Valley of the End... this was one chapter long. And the Valley of the End was the greatest part of the series. Period. Sasuke and Naruto bond mutually over beating the snot out of each other. Sakura bonds through emotions, while Sasuke tries to deny that he has any. He is going to open up more and produce more gorgeous emotional scenes while beating up Naruto than if Sakura talks to him about feelings.



And one would think it would be harder to admit such things to a rival... 



> I never tried to say that Sasuke did not have a deep and meaningful bond with Naruto as well. The only thing that I was trying to do was respond to your comment that Sakura has no special emotional hold on him.
> 
> Your original comment was that he never shares things with Sakura in particular, only with Team 7 or Naruto in particular. I provided with you of an example of a time to the contrary, and now you're saying that said example doesn't mean anything?



I put "special" in inverted commas for a reason, just to let you know. I'm not really the type that totally shrugs off SasuSaku, but it's only literarily convenient with NaruSaku. SasuSaku can't hold hardly anything against SasuNaru IMVHO.



> Also, you say that "he admitted to Naruto he gave up his LIFE instead of having revenge"... whose life are you referring to there? Are you referring to where he spared Naruto's life at the Valley of the End instead of killing him for the Mangekyo? (Your wording just confused me, and I seriously would like to know the answer to this.)



Haku scene. I can even use the _!_databook to confirm what I wrote [ie, Sasuke choose to gave up his life for Naruto instead of revenge in that scene].



> As I said in my past post, Sasuke's bond with Naruto developed from their rivalry, which is why he allowed it to develop.



Says who :/? That's like saying Sasuke has no preference for Naruto besides his promising skills. 



> He and Naruto related in areas that he did not relate to anyone else and formed Sasuke's most precious bond.



Yes. But maybe there's more...something like [mutual]..admiration, fondness, compatibility...possessivity :ho? You can't stand up convincedly for a relationship's romantic viability when it lacks so much.



> As I also said in my previous post, Sakura's bond with Sasuke was always overshadowed by her desire for romantic acknowledgment from him, thus Sasuke was less willing to allow her to grow close to him.



Says who? They could actually interact and Sasuke didn't seem to have any particular inclination that wasn't justifiable.



> He was already taking a death blow for Naruto before he'd really admitted to himself how much Naruto meant to him. For Sakura though, there was no bond while struggling together to improve themselves; there was no literal demonstration of "I will die to protect you." Her desire for romantic acknowledgment only slowed their bonding further; as I said before, rivalry can help him grow strong, romance can't. With Sakura, there simply wasn't enough time for them to bond between the Land of Waves, when his teammates stopped being dead weights, and his one-sided battle with Itachi, where they started being unnecessary bonds that distracted him from his hatred.



Ok, so you're saying Sakura is only pairing fodder, she is useless for anything else when it comes to Sasuke ? And then one wonders why people don't like it. Not everyone thinks Sasuke is too much of a revenger to just _hint_ he could fall for someone romantically in the future.



> Naruto was spared because he was, quite simply, the most precious person to Sasuke at that time.



Let me make this simple. I don't believe Sasuke was socially retarded enough to _not_ be intrigued by someone therefore prevent him to form a viable relationship for romance; thus my rejection of SasuSaku. Moreover, I like deep mutuality on any level, and I still have to see SasuSaku enter any of those categories IMO. Putting moments on pedestals doesn't make up for what lacks on a consistant or significant literary level.



Hikui said:


> I didn't say tremendously, don't exaggerate. If you find my use of words unclear and rude/condescending, then I'm sorry. We shouldn't get heated in a debate. That's what I meant.
> 
> I agree, Sasuke's bond with Sakura is not as strong as Naruto's and it's completely different. The reason Sakura gives a lot more to Naruto is because Naruto accepts it, that's all.
> 
> Sasuke is not ready to give or accept anyone's feelings, now. Not even Naruto's, hopefully we'll see how that develops .



Well I think your response to her was a bit out of the blue, but the clarification was helpful.


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## JERITROLL (Mar 31, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I think...I agree.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> ...



Well, good to see where you're coming from! 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



 I somewhat agree that it should have been ended sooner if that's what Kishi was wanting to do, but something tells me that the editors got involved..... Besides the point, I just can't see NaruHina happening from this. It feels like Kishi rushed into it, and I don't really see how anything realistically can come of it. But that's more opinion XD. 

As a side prediction, I figure that Naruto might actually scold her for doing that. Will it hurt? Yes, but the fact of the matter is, she made things worse, rather than better. And that's why I see both NH and SS as not going to happen, because the amount of negativity that has come dwarfs the positives. Thus why I like NaruSaku, it just seems to have more positive things to say. But that's sheer opinion, you can pick up with that if you'd like XD.


 



> Interpretation, not something considered to be CANNON:
> Well, I think Sakura does get the picture. Imo, she is no longer fighting for Sasuke's love, she knows he doesn't love her that way but that doesn't mean her feelings for him will change. She still loves him, she's still in love with him and she's going to show him and bring him back. I don't think him loving her back matters that much. Matters of the heart are hard to understand. That is as far as it goes with my understanding of Sakura, I hope it makes sense. (It does in my head ). If Sakura decides to get over Sasuke, I think I'll have to be by the end of the manga or something. They need to clear things out. (<-- comment not expected to be debated).


I don't know about that... . Well, anyways, I agree that Sakura is at least at that point, but I do think that her feelings have changed already. Keep in mind, all that both Naruto and Sakura have had (yeah, I'm willing to admit it), is a crush. That, and the fact that they were young tell us that they really don't know what it is they're feeling. For that reason, and the fact that Sasuke is gone, I don't see it as a problem that she hasn't resolved it with him. This is Sakura's heart we're taking about, not Sasuke's, and as far as we know, he only saw her as a teammate. Chances are, though, it'll be at the end... Although the way things have been going.....



> I also foresee something unexpected. Hahaha.


That's Kishi for ya XD.


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## Tony Lou (Mar 31, 2009)

As suggested by Yondaime,i'm reposting here:

NaruHina:

Naruto: Cares about Hinata.

Hinata: Loves Naruto.

__

NaruSaku:

Naruto: Cares about Sakura and has a little crush on her. 
Link removed

It's always a comedy scene. we still haven't seen it happening in a serious moment.

Sakura: Has never shown that it's more than friendship. There's only Yamato's response.

Point: NaruHina: Deeper,even though it's more from Hinata's side.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 31, 2009)

^Yeah, Hinata surely has _deeper_ feelings for Naruto when Sakura can run to KN4 saying she'll save Sasuke-KUN so he doesn't have to risk doing so


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## Tony Lou (Mar 31, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ^Yeah, Hinata surely has _deeper_ feelings for Naruto when Sakura can run to KN4 saying she'll save Sasuke-KUN so he doesn't have to risk doing so



Link removed

third panel


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 31, 2009)

^Now show me the panel where Sakura says "I don't love Naruto like I do Sasuke"


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## moonjump05 (Mar 31, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ^Now show me the panel where Sakura says "I don't love Naruto like I do Sasuke"




*creeps in*

Link removed

*creeps out*


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 31, 2009)

^2.5 fucking years later and after what I quoted perhaps  development isn't going to disappear for a pairing's convenience


----------



## ilovemashedpotatoes (Mar 31, 2009)

The Luiz said:


> As suggested by Yondaime,i'm reposting here:
> 
> NaruHina:
> 
> ...



Fixed for you


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## moonjump05 (Mar 31, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ^2.5 fucking years later and after what I quoted perhaps  development isn't going to disappear for a pairing's convenience



^and character growth/friendship isn't turning romantic much to the dismay of a certain pairing.


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## izzyisozaki (Mar 31, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> ^and character growth/friendship isn't turning romantic much to the dismay of a certain pairing.



Despite of Yamato, you mean :ho

Let's ignore SasuSaku is heavily one-sided in more than one way pek

And so was NaruHina till a few weeks ago


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 1, 2009)

The Luiz said:


> As suggested by Yondaime,i'm reposting here:
> 
> NaruHina:
> 
> ...



1. I dislike when one mocks the strength of Naruto's feelings just because they have...more lighthearted moments then angsty inner monologues.

2. Relegating Sakura's feelings to nothing, in itself, is flawed, as that's not where the manga has pointed for a long time, and i can debate you on that.

3. In spite of the blatant ignorance of attempting to simplify and condense NaruSaku into an offhand saying by Yamato, i can say with clarity that your statement is heavily biased and not at all thought out.


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## Kage (Apr 1, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you stopped nitpicking and using sarcastic remarks.


that's rich 


> You don't have to bitter about it, ONE of Sakura's MAIN motivations is to get Sasuke back and that's a PART of why she got stronger.



_one_. i'm glad you understand that and i never implied that it wasn't. only that it took his leaving for her to wake up and smell the goddamn coffee thanks.

i'll admit i have no nice things to say about sasusaku and coming off harsh when it's concerned just comes natural to me. doesn't help when people like to paint it in a light where it's some tragic angsty romance that's beautiful cause it's not perfect and everything else sucks or is inadequate in comparison with it's mutual positive influence and it's ambiguity.  

it annoys me. hence the hostility. 



> It doesn't matter if you think it's pathetic, it's just FACT. That's just how love is sometimes (and how Kishimoto decided to portray it, he said so himself. The SasuSaku relationship was not meant to be perfect or mutual in the begging -who knows later. The relationship was selfish and flawed, it's human).


you're right. so what if i think it's pathetic? indeed the fact remains, she poured her heart out to him and he rejected her. 

yeah yeah loves not perfect and that's why sasusaku works! _sure_.

it'd like to think a relationship should have a little more going for it then _just_ it's flaws but maybe that's just me.

and before you jump down my throat about what makes sasusaku _not_ completely horrible i am aware of the fact that they can be civil to one another and are/were at the very most friends(not particularly close ones but nonetheless) do i think it's enough for an epic but flawed and very human love? no.



> Other than that, (can anyone) care explain why can Sakura get over Sasuke and Naruto can't get over Sakura? (In a respectful and clear way may I add). I just don't get the double standards.


I will when you can answer me why naruto's perfectly capable of getting over her and she'll never get over sasuke. (see how these double standards work?)

i wonder if you'll throw one-sided love confessions at me..



> That said, please don't use the Naruto "never gives up" argument", to me it's too general to be taken seriously.



about as tired as the 'sasuke's revenge is so important that he's unable to show he's at least a _little_ interested in sakura romantically' argument is to me.
talk about _too general to be taken seriously_.


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## Tyrannos (Apr 1, 2009)

The Luiz said:


> *NaruHina:*
> 
> Naruto: Cares about Hinata.
> 
> ...



Okay, Luiz.  Please tell us the why NaruHina is "deeper" than NaruSaku? 


*Spoiler*: _Is it because_ 



Hinata confessed to Naruto?  (Especially waiting all these years)?

If so, then why did she say her actions were selfish? 

Why is it deep, when she totally ignored his request that nobody interfere?




How is it Deep, when Naruto was clueless to Hinata's affection all these years?

Why didn't she come to his aid when he was being treated like crap by the villagers?


BTW, last I checked Naruto doesn't care about Hinata in a romantic fashion, he only cares about her in a platonic fashion.



The Luiz said:


> *NaruSaku:*
> 
> Naruto: Cares about Sakura and has a little crush on her.
> Link removed
> ...



God, not this load of tripe again.  _Always_ going for the negativity, never the positives.  

1)  Comedy is a staple in Shonen.   Men always tend to get beaten up by a woman.  (Which almost always guarantees a couple.  )

2)  Sakura never shown more than friendship?   Only 297 is it?   How about Chapter 261?  Chapter 298?  Chapter 343!    Some even consider Chapter 429 to be significant.

Now let's move on to that NH > NS with "Deeper" moments.

If NH is deeper, than how come Naruto and Sakura know each other more than Hinata does with Naruto.  That is by definition of "deeper".   

Sakura innately trusts Naruto, while Hinata has shown in Part 2 that she worries over him (I.E. she doesn't trust him).


*Spoiler*: __ 



People getting full of themselves because of Hinata's confession, and picking up Naruto being relieved Hinata was all right in Chapter 441 as "proof" of NaruHina.

But yet people ignore the fact that Naruto wasn't worried solely about Hinata, he was worried about _everyone_ in Konoha as well.  Because he thought he killed them in Kyuubi mode.




All in all this arguement is highly biased against NaruSaku.  NaruHina is far from being a "deep romance".  In fact, SasuSaku has more "Deep" moments than NaruHina.  



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> It wasn't a direct attack; it was just indirect, condescending, and rude.



"Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck" is rude and condensending?Hate to tell you, but that saying been around for decades and you're making Mt. Everest out of a speedbump.

Because I was stating you don't like to be called a NH, then don't use their arguements.


And I'm not going to bother with the rest of those other unnecessary statements.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> And where does it state that past that point, her feelings remained selfish?



And prove me it's not.   No biased or opinionated comments.  

Show me definitive proof that Kishimoto changed his mind and made it a serious love.  Then I and other NaruSaku's will no longer use this as part of our arguements.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> She already fell in love with someone.



What, is there a law saying characters aren't allowed to change their feelings and fall in love with another? 



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I do not understand why Sakura cannot remain devoted to Sasuke romantically, yet Naruto can to Sakura [if he is, which I disagree with].



Why does Sakura have to remain devoted to Sasuke, why isn't she allowed to fall in love with Naruto?

Why should she end up with Sasuke when he treated her like trash, while Naruto gave it his all to make her happy?


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 1, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Why should she end up with Sasuke when he treated her like trash, while Naruto gave it his all to make her happy?



NOT GOOD ENOUGH !!! He isn't what she wants! That Naruto knows just how srs her fixation is on Sasuke even if he continues to fancy her . Wait, Naruto doesn't understand Sakura at all, he is inadequate  Plus you can like totallllly tell in Part 2 she'd choose Sasuke over him in no time pek


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 1, 2009)

I can see now that Naruto's feelings don't have to be taken into account in order for a logical pairing with him to take place.

After all there is no other possibility besides Naruto's one sided misbegotten crush on Sakura promptly being eradicated in favor of the true never ending love with Hinata, its plain easy to see that the only reason NaruHina isnt already canon, is because Hinata didn't confess before now.


 I'm glad we also have it straightened out, that all of Sakura's emotions are dictated by her arbitrary love object true love sasuke, and there is really no other point to her besides being with him, in reality she hardly tolerates Naruto but at the same time loves him as a platonic friend and brother because she's Sasuke's and noone else's. She'd be so flighty if she didn't end up with him after all.


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## Milkshake (Apr 1, 2009)

So too you SS fans: So I'm presuming (just presuming/inferring, not knowing your intended idea) that there is no such things as maturing from a one-sided 'love' that has caused her so much pain and trauma- over a 2 1/2 year separation in Sakura's case, no? Sakura must always love Sasuke because that's her ONE GOAL; no, not because she obviously cares that Naruto's also in pain from the departure of his close friend and that she doesn't want to see him hurt anymore, but JUST SOLELY due to the fact that she has a undying, unconditional true love for Sasuke that can never break, no matter how closer she is with Naruto than she ever was with Sasuke, and that Naruto has had more the positive influence over her than Sasuke will ever have, no. Because Sakura has a confession, a declaration of love to Sasuke's backside back in PART I, she must still and always love him.

 Rite?


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## Hikui (Apr 1, 2009)

kageneko said:


> that's rich
> 
> 
> _one_. i'm glad you understand that and i never implied that it wasn't. only that it took his leaving for her to wake up and smell the goddamn coffee thanks.
> ...



Let's just try to be civil to each other. I get along with people that's hostile all the time, so I guess I'll have to get used to it. Oh well, I was just trying to play it cool. 

I'm sorry it annoys you. We all are annoyed by something and blah but being harsh doesn't help our dilemma, does it?



kageneko said:


> you're right. so what if i think it's pathetic? indeed the fact remains, she poured her heart out to him and he rejected her.
> 
> yeah yeah loves not perfect and that's why sasusaku works! _sure_.
> 
> ...



I'm not going to jump in your throat....I never said they relationship works, btw. Don't generalize, just because I think Sakura still has romantic feelings for him doesn't mean I think they could/should end up together. 

At this point, that scenario is highly unlikely. From my point of view, the only way Sasusaku can believably end up together is via a time-skip. 
But who knows, anything can happen with Kishimoto...

Also, I can't argue if Sasusaku is beautiful as of now because the relationship doesn't exist (now). Back in Part 1, it was painful and not healthy, if some people find that beautiful then be it, but it's just a matter of opinion. I for one, don't think it's beautiful. I still sort of like them tho. *shrug*

Sakura loves Sasuke. Sasuke cares(d) about Sakura. They were friends. There was love (from Sakura's part), but there wasn't a love relationship. I agree.




kageneko said:


> I will when you can answer me why naruto's perfectly capable of getting over her and she'll never get over sasuke. (see how these double standards work?)
> 
> i wonder if you'll throw one-sided love confessions at me..
> 
> ...



I know how double standards work, thanks. That's actually why I asked....

If had taken the time to read my post you would've noticed I said that Sakura couldn't get over Sasuke in the time-skip (because it would be meaningless story-wise) but that if that is what Kishimoto intends then it'll probably be by the end of the manga. 

And about the "sasuke and revenge" thing, I won't even care to argue. 

Nighty for now.

PS. I hope someone answers my question.


----------



## WriterforHire (Apr 1, 2009)

Hello everyone! 

   It's very unlikely that any of you remember me. I registered for this site a while ago, almost entirely to join up and participate in this thread, because debating happens to be a thing I find very fascinating. But, when I did do that, it had been at a time when these threads had a very different feel to them and were almost entirely dominated by Narusaku fans. I came back when the newest spoiler came out, because I figured that this would throw in some new material on the debates (since nothing particularly groundbreaking for any of the pairings had happened in the last few chapters) and I must say, almost immediately; I was shocked by what I found. 

There's _ way _ too much animosity here. 

   Really, we are all civilized adults here, and we're debating over a topic that really, when it comes down to it, has no real value to it. These people are fictional. They live in a fictional world. It'll really have very little bearing on your life if so or so ends up with so and so. 

With that out of the way, it's time I threw in my two cents. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Hinata's Confession: 

Let's look at this a bit more, now shall we? 

   From what I've understood of what I've read in the post, the main objection that is risen over her confession is not that it "ruins the chances for Narusaku" or anything like that, but mainly that it was a) Rushed, unexpected and too sudden, and b) Doesn't actually change the standing of the pairings at all. 

   I want to focus on the second one first. Most Narusakuers seem very protective of this point; in fact, I would like to suggest that we are all way too jumpy to admit that this confession doesn't actually make NaruHina canon. We all get it. Naruto has yet to respond to her declaration, and, from the look of it, will not do so for a while. The NaruHina supporters do not claim that their pairing is now 100% certified truth. But there is one new thing they are now stating. 

That NaruHina is now _ likely._ 

   This is where the key difference that I see between the two parties. Everyone agrees that the Confession does not really set in stone either pairing. (Save that one fella who argued that Kishi wouldn't have the two Confessions in his story unless he intended to make those his established pairings, of which I say that rejected love is both a fact of reality and literature.) But what is mainly being argued is how strong each pairing is compared to each other due to these recent events. 




With this in mind, I want to look at the development of Naruto's and Hinata's relationship as a whole. 

    Early on in the manga, it is revealed that Hinata was a secret admirer of Naruto's. It was also revealed that the two knew literally nothing about each other. (And that still probably stands till this point, actually) But what drew Hinata to be attracted to Naruto, despite his class clown antics, was how hard he worked and his determination. 

    Time goes on and the two don't speak to each other, or, if the rare occasion does spring up, Hinata stutters, blushes and possibly faints. Then comes the moment, right prior to the Chunin Examins, where the two have a short talk and Naruto actually decides to become her friend. It is likely that this is the first actual conversation of any significance the two of them ever had. 

    After this, Naruto watches Hinata get beat up by her cousin, and he jumps down and makes the Blood Oath, defending his new friend. After this the shift goes onto Naruto and his forming of a bond with Neji and his forming of a bond with Gaara (which immediately overshadows the other one by far) 

    I think if one is fair, they?ll have to admit that things stagnate for the relationship after this point. The two hardly speak to each other or have any other moment where they grow closer. Then there is Naruto?s training trip, where he is gone for three years. 

    Naruto?s meeting up with Hinata would have been the perfect opportunity for Kishi to further develop the pairing. I was mainly hoping that over the three year gap that Hinata would have grown a bit more confident and they would have a decent conversation after their initial meeting. But that didn?t happened. But, by that point, I was not surprised. I had found out that Kishi used the time skip mainly as a tool to age all of his characters while still giving them their same personality and skills as before and, far more oddly, keeping the state of their relationships to each other the same as before. 

In all cases, that is, save one. 

   I think we all can agree that over the time gap and in the proceeding chapters after the time gap, the friendship between Naruto and Sakura became stronger. This is particularly noteworthy because all the other relationships between the already established characters stayed utterly the same, with the exception of the Asuma/Kurenai relationship, which, as we all know, was to make the relationship (before then undefined) into a romantic one, which I find peculiar. I personally found it interesting that of all the relations between the original characters in the manga, only two relationships changed one that became romantic and another that became exceedingly intimate. 

    Now, I hope by now you can tell which side I?m leaning towards, if not, it?ll become abundantly clear in these next few points. First, I want to say that it is entirely possible that Hinata will become one of Naruto?s most precious people and therefore be standing by his side in that long line of ?precious people? that we always see in his mind sequence. There seems to be a misconception that once someone becomes close to Naruto that they will forever stay that way. Take Iruka, for example. Iruka was _the_ precious person, the very first one, the sole person Naruto had to cling to when literally the entire world hated him. But then he got Team 7. After that, Iruka was seen less and less as Naruto spent more time with Sasuke, Sakura and Kakashi. In a sense, Iruka became neglected. So, while it?s possible that Hinata will become one of Naruto?s most precious people, it will literally mean the fractioning of Team 7 once and for all. Because in order for them to get together and _stay_ together that would require constant interaction, which, at the moment, Naruto is using with spending time around Sakura and other very precious people like the Tsunade, Kakashi and, most importantly, chasing after Sasuke. 

    I?ve been hearing a lot of comments about how Naruto?s feelings are merely comedic and that because whenever Naruto asks dates they always end up in Sakura hitting him (which, by the way, seems to be the fallback criticism for anti-Narusaku, a picture of Sakura hitting Naruto while she is angry is the main picture on the anti-Narusaku FC) or since the fact that all their interactions focus around Sasuke that means that neither Naruto?s crush or the pairing of Narusaku should be taken seriously. 

    But this is a grave injustice to the pairing. After all, could I not say that since the constant interaction between Naruto and Hinata has always involved Hinata blushing, stammering and fainting, that her feelings should not be taken seriously because such moments were meant as a comedic moments and clearly show that their relationship only does harm to Hinata in the long run. (After all, Naruto never passes out because Sakura hits him too hard). Now, Naruhina fans will, and should rightly so, point out that there are many serious moments in Naruhina, by far not the least of which is the latest development, and so Naruhina should not be dismissed. In the same way, I _must_ insist that you treat Narusaku with the same respect. There have been serious moments. Narusaku may not have a love confession but it has many other strong points. 

Another point I want to make: Love confessions. 

    Now, we all know about Sakura?s confession, so, I?ll stick there for now since it flows nicely into the recent events. Now, what does this confession tells us? That Sakura is deeply in love with Sasuke? That is a love that will last and be the foundation for a long-standing relationship? 

No. 

    Love confessions, both in Naruto, and in all medias merely show that the character _believes_ that he or she is in love. It is possible, and in fact, very likely, that one can deceive themselves into believing they are in love when they in fact they are not. This is a reason given for many divorces actually. I do not believe that anyone ?falls out of love?, it?s simply that what they felt was not true love to begin with at all. 

   So, should we say that since Sakura confessed to Sasuke that she loved him that her feelings for Sasuke are stronger than Naruto?s feelings for Sakura? Definitely not. Even if Naruto thinks lightly of his feelings and dismiss them, even if everyone else thinks lightly of his feelings and dismiss them, that by no means shows that those feelings are not true love, just that no one pays them much heed.     

   Speaking of Sakura?s confession, I want to bring up the main argument that Sasusaku supporters use to back up the possibility that Sasuke will one day return her feelings. The fact that Sakura is one of Sasuke?s precious people and is his friend-

Wait. 

Is Sakura Sasuke?s friend? 

Answer to this in part 2! Sorry, but there's too much. I need to double-post.


----------



## WriterforHire (Apr 1, 2009)

Here's the second half. You we're all waiting with baited breath - weren't you? 

Now, we all know that scene, where he asks Naruto to protect Sakura because he is unwilling to let anyone who he cares about to die again…but I thought that Sasuke had severed those bonds that he had decided that his friendships to Naruto and Sakura, and their bonds as Team Seven were worthless compared to his mission to acquire power and kill Sasuke. 

   This is the predicament that Sasusakuers must overcome. Sasuke doesn’t want to be involved with Sakura romantically. In fact, he doesn’t want to be her friend. He doesn’t want to be involved with Konaha at all. And, it is quite clear that unless something change (a la epic Naruto fight – bonding moment scene) Sasuke will not change. 

   Never did Kishi glorify the revenge that now consumes Sasuke. In fact, the moment that motivation appeared he had Kakashi think that such dark revenge will destroy Sasuke, which, of course, it does. The fact of the matter is, Sasuke completed his mission: 


*Spoiler*: __ 





He killed Itachi. 

    Yet, what did he do immediately afterward? He determined that there was more people he had to kill for revenge. Even with Itachi’s death Sasuke did not find fulfillment or serenity. He had to find another target. He had to kill again. Do you really think that if Naruto does not step in and intervene, that Sasuke will naturally stop, and say, of himself, “Yeah. I’ve had my revenge. I am content now”. I can’t. I think Sasuke will spend the rest of his life, the way he is now, hunting down every last person he believes is even remotely related to the Uchiha Massacre, he might very well decide, at his very lowest point, that all humanity must be eradicated (after all, they all could have done something, anything to prevent it. Why didn’t they? They didn’t stop it! They all wanted it to happen! The ninjas! The villagers! The entire world! No one could match up to the greatest of the Uchihas! They are all jealous! All of them!) 

I can see him thinking along those lines. 
















    What I am attempting to say in this, is that for Sasusaku to happen, something radical must happen to Sasuke. While there’s a high possibility that such a thing will happen (it’s been hinted enough that Naruto will pound sense into Sasuke one way or another for that to be very clear) it still stands that currently if things were to continue naturally Sasuke would never return to Konaha, and therefore Sasusaku could not occur. 

    Prior to this event, the natural, day-to-day interactions between Naruto and Hinata also would have prevented them ever getting together. Think about it for a moment: Why is Hinata a side character? It’s because she’s less important to Naruto then those others who are main characters. To Naruto, whether he knows it or not, there are levels of precious people. They are all important to him: He wants their respect and he would willingly fight, protect and die for all of them. But he’s infinitely more close to those who stand directly beside him on that line of people to those who stand farther away. If Naruhina were to happen, Hinata would have to _ become _ a main character, such a transformation happened to Chichi, after all. 

    But due to the very nature of their relationship, something drastic like the recent development _had_ to have happened in order for Hinata to break through Naruto’s obliviousness, but not for Naruhina to become a strong possibility.

This is not so for Narusaku. 

    Nothing needs to change in their current relationship. Sasuke needs to come back to Konaha and willing wants to stay there and abandon his thirst for revenge. Hinata had to overcome the shyness of her character and have some decent conversations and interactions with Naruto. But Naruto and Sakura don’t need any change. Since the very beginning of the manga, the Sasusaku bond started negative, became stronger and then broke as Sasuke left. The Naruhina bond started neutral, became stronger (with the Chunin Exams arc) and then stagnated as no significant moments occurred, but with Narusaku there was growth and constant growth. Naruto _never_ becomes annoyed with Sakura. Not when she demands that he retrieve Sasuke for her own sake, not when she hits him, or yells at him, or calls him an idiot. Likewise, such negative things appear less and less from Sakura and we see that the two of them become close friends. At the moment, of all the three pairings, they are the single most, closest bond. Naruto cares more for Sakrua than he does for Hinata. And that is solely in a purely platonic sense. With Narusaku I have a firm foundation: I _know_ how they interact, day to day. I don’t know how Sasuke and Sakura would interact should he suddenly have a constant presence in her life, or how Naruto and Hinata would react, especially if she reverts back to her shy behavior around him now that his life isn’t immediately in danger. 

    My last argument for Narusaku is a purely aesthetic one, and merely comes form my inner writer and personal believes. I don’t believe in love at first sight. I think love must be _made_ which is why I think Hinata’s feelings are so dwarfed by Naruto’s feelings for Sakura. Because Naruto _knows_ Sakura. He sees her everyday. He talks to her everyday. Hinata’s feelings originated from an aspect of Naruto that she greatly admired: His determination and will to never give up. She saw one scene and “fell in love” after that. Yet, for some reason or another, she couldn’t find the courage to come up and speak to him. Sakura didn’t want to be near Naruto, and didn’t see his positive side, but through their constant interactions she was forced to see what Hinata saw naturally and came to respect and admire Naruto. But here’s the thing. Sakura’s admiration for Naruto is _growing_ while Hinata’s have _peaked_. 

    Naruto was my first manga and my first anime. I came into it looking through it with the eyes of an obsessive reader; therefore, I saw a great deal of poetic potential in the latest developments. Sasuke had everything that Naruto desired. He had the skills early on, which gave him the respect of the village and also set him up as the most likely shinobi of their generation to receive the title of Hokage (which, to add insult to injury, was a thing that Sasuke didn’t even want!) He was smart and “cool” and, according to his Uchiha Fan Club ™ - good looking. 

And he had Sakura; the girl that Naruto “had a thing for”.

    Now, I will be the first to say that Naruto did not love Sakura then, remember the “no love at first sight” thing? But you don’t have to be in love to be jealous. I’ve never been in love but I’ve felt jealousy many times over girls who never even knew I liked them. (Probably…) 

    Yet here is where the poetry sets in. Sasuke throws it all away. He throws away the admiration and respect of Konaha, his relationship with Naruto and Sakura and all the moments they shared. He determined that it was worthless compared to his thirst for power and revenge. 

And, because of this, Naruto got everything that he threw away. 

Naruto is now respected in the village. And he is by far the most powerful shinobi. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



 No one else could take on Pein 


.

So why shouldn’t he get Sakura too? I’m gonna root for Naruto – he tends to win.


----------



## Griever (Apr 1, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *creeps in*
> 
> Link removed
> 
> *creeps out*



Let's try to look for things from part 2 of the manga as i have said the crush of a 12 year old girl holds no ground in my book.



moonjump05 said:


> ^and character growth/friendship isn't turning romantic much to the dismay of a certain pairing.



That is really not true Naruto and Sakura have had the most chartacter development out off all the characters in the manga.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 1, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> Let's try to look for things from part 2 of the manga as i have said the crush of a 12 year old girl holds no ground in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> That is really not true Naruto and Sakura have had the most chartacter development out off all the characters in the manga.



First....pass. Cos it's all speculation in the end.

Second...Naruto and Sasuke have far more development, even _together_.


			
				WriterforHire said:
			
		

> I think love must be made which is why I think Hinata’s feelings so dwarfs Naruto’s feelings for Sakura. Because Naruto knows Sakura. He sees her everyday. He talks to her everyday. Hinata’s feelings originated from an aspect of Naruto that she greatly admired: His determination and will to never give up. She saw one scene and “fell in love” after that. Yet, for some reason or another, she couldn’t find the courage to come up and speak to him. Sakura didn’t want to be near Naruto, and didn’t see his positive side, but through their constant interactions she was forced to see what Hinata saw naturally and came to respect and admire Naruto. But here’s the thing. Sakura’s admiration for Naruto is growing while Hinata’s have peaked.



Oh sweet logic 

As much as Sasuke deserves redemption and who not, NaruSaku is far more substantial than any NH or SS up to this point  [my opinion]


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## Milkshake (Apr 1, 2009)

Writer-sama, you are wins. 
I loved that little manifesto, NS is unfortuantly pwning NH and SS. They have that background.


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## Kage (Apr 1, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Let's just try to be civil to each other. I get along with people that's hostile all the time, so I guess I'll have to get used to it. Oh well, I was just trying to play it cool.



i have no problems being civil. in fact the initial post you quoted was me being _nice._ it really was. (well as nice as the post i responded to allowed with it's overall message of 'i pity those narusaku fools with their straw grasping and inability to understand sakura's never ending devotion to her one tru love D:' )

also I did refrain from getting into the finer aspects of SS straw grasping after all.


> I'm sorry it annoys you. We all are annoyed by something and blah but being harsh doesn't help our dilemma, does it?


no it doesn't. but accusing an already annoyed person of being essentially the _only one_ _"I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you"_ in this thread of nitpicking and sarcasm doesn't really help either. 



> I'm not going to jump in your throat....I never said they relationship works, btw. Don't generalize, just because I think Sakura still has romantic feelings for him doesn't mean I think they could/should end up together.



sorry. it's the impression you gave me with the 'loves not perfect' speech.
it's been used multiple times to justify the fact that their non existent romantic relationship wouldn't exactly be beneficial and rewarding to any character in the long run.



> At this point, that scenario is highly unlikely. From my point of view, the only way Sasusaku can believably end up together is via a time-skip.
> But who knows, anything can happen with Kishimoto...


indeed.



> Also, I can't argue if Sasusaku is beautiful as of now because the relationship doesn't exist (now). Back in Part 1, it was painful and not healthy, if some people find that beautiful then be it, but it's just a matter of opinion. I for one, don't think it's beautiful. I still sort of like them tho. *shrug*


i can respect that. especially since you understand what it is and isn't. (though it being beautiful is indeed a matter of opinion and i'm not trying to say anyone is "wrong" for believing that only that i seriously disagree)



> Sakura loves Sasuke. Sasuke cares(d) about Sakura. They were friends. There was love (from Sakura's part), but there wasn't a love relationship. I agree.



i still think how deep her feelings run are debatable but otherwise agree.




> I know how double standards work, thanks. That's actually why I asked....


good. then you understand where i was coming from.



> If had taken the time to read my post you would've noticed I said that Sakura couldn't get over Sasuke in the time-skip (because it would be meaningless story-wise) but that if that is what Kishimoto intends then it'll probably be by the end of the manga.



just like it would be meaningless to reiterate them or naruto's own for that matter.

honestly i wouldn't have even noticed you responded to me if i didn't read another posters reply to it  

so i basically went back and zeroed in on what you said to just me and took it from there.



> And about the "sasuke and revenge" thing, I won't even care to argue.


excellent. it would be a waste of time to do so.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Apr 1, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> My last argument for Narusaku is a purely aesthetic one, and merely comes form my inner writer and personal believes. I don’t believe in love at first sight. I think love must be _made_ which is why I think Hinata’s feelings so dwarfs Naruto’s feelings for Sakura. Because Naruto _knows_ Sakura. He sees her everyday. He talks to her everyday. Hinata’s feelings originated from an aspect of Naruto that she greatly admired: His determination and will to never give up. She saw one scene and “fell in love” after that. Yet, for some reason or another, she couldn’t find the courage to come up and speak to him. Sakura didn’t want to be near Naruto, and didn’t see his positive side, but through their constant interactions she was forced to see what Hinata saw naturally and came to respect and admire Naruto. But here’s the thing. Sakura’s admiration for Naruto is _growing_ while Hinata’s have _peaked_.




And even this my friend, is also a major part of NaruSaku as well as we can both see in chapter three

Link removed

That Naruto, like Hinata, has his own reasons for caring about Sakura, its not a matter of her being an arbitrary love object like Sakura to Sasuke, who probably has no idea why she even started to like him in the first place besides him being cool and whatnot.  

She's never once thought about why she actually cared about him, she just did because it was him and there was no need to think about anything else beyond that point.

To me this feels like just another step to her realization to recognizing her own self and the people around her, most especially the one who she did not notice at first.

This whole series has just been Sakura slowly growing and growing closer Naruto and she recognizes elements about herself and others, its never been static and its never been purely about half baked romance, and the same can be said for Naruto who although gushes over Sakura at the drop of a hat, displays his own dedication and determination to keep her happy as much as he possibly can.


That's why i can continue to reiterate that Naruto's emotions towards Sakura and viceversa are not to be cast aside without a thought, because it is hardly a one-dimensional affair.


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## Griever (Apr 1, 2009)

@izzyisozaki
I don't think saying that a 12 year old girls crush holds no ground is speculation it's really logic, a 12 year old is a child that does not understand the world yet exspecily something like love shit not even adults fully understand love, a 12 year old could get really confused with there feelings and mistake it compleatly it's not reliable at all.

Naruto and Sasuke you mean as a gay pairing?. if i have mistaken that really sorry.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 1, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> @izzyisozaki
> I don't think saying that a 12 year old girls crush holds no ground is speculation it's really logic, a 12 year old is a child that does not understand the world yet exspecily something like love shit not even adults fully understand love, a 12 year old could get really confused with there feelings and mistake it compleatly it's not reliable at all.
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke you mean as a gay pairing?. if i have mistaken that really sorry.



Sakura isn't 12 anymore, and she can be stupid enough since this is manga to love Sasuke to her dying day. Just look at Hinata [though the she has never been rejected]. Sakura is still pursuing Sasuke as well in a form, though for ambiguous and bigger reasons than getting in his pants.

No you simply said they [Naruto and Sakura] had the most development as characters in the manga, and I corrected you.


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## saasha (Apr 1, 2009)

kageneko said:


> it's far more desperate to think that feelings can't change (and grasping at straws...i won't even get into _that_)



Really? Why? It is a manga after all & officially declared, genuine, romantic feelings dont normally change every few yrs, unless it is a shojo manga which Naruto obviously isn't. Besides, _Sakura_ has given no indication at all that her feelings for sasuke have waned to platonic love. When she does, I'll begin to believe it.



> and sakura will forever remain the pathetic 12-year old girl who was a hindrance to her team because she spent so much time worrying over a boy who wouldn't give her the time of day instead of training to better herself



I'm honestly tired of people calling Sakura pathetic or useless. Imo, pathetic or useless doesn't freaking describe sakura at all ( & yes, I'm talking about the old sakura) The only thing she was is selfish & self-absorbed. I didn't think she was that much of a hinderance to her team either, after all she stepped in front of Tazuna as early as the zabuza arc when even naruto froze up in fear. 

She had plenty of potential; she just never had special abilities like naruto or sasuke or even a competent teacher that could help bring out her potential. Yes, Sakura in the beginning concentrated more on wooing sasuke rather than on training, but if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that this sakura all but disappeared before the end of the chuunin exams & it was partly due to sasuke's influence that she corrects herself. 




> willing to say anything to get him to stay with her forever (cause her being all alone and unhappy was her big selling point)



Yes, it was, because it showed _Sasuke_ the depth of her feelings for him. He understood her pain of lonliness even if you didnt. How you feel about her confession isn't important  (thank god for that), What matters is that _Sasuke_ was touched by it & felt that it warranted a heartfelt Thank You. 




> despite admitting to the fact the he never talked to her, opened up to her and acted like he hated her.



uh.. Because he didn't?. Sasuke didn't open up to anyone about his past not to her & not to naruto or Kakashi. He never willingly talked to her, naruto or kakashi about his past & he did act like he hated her, most of the time. Sasuke tended to repress & keep all his feelings bottled up. The only time he let his guard down with naruto was when he was dying & with sakura? Whenever he felt pressurised by her, he tended to let slip a little of himself to her. So, it was natural that sakura would bring his unwillingness to confide in anyone in an attempt to get him to open up some more & what do you know, it worked ! He does attempt to explain things to her, even though he didn't have to give in at all. 

 Sasuke is the type that is bent on suffering alone, never complaining & always refusing help from anyone. She knew this, which is why she questions him on these things. How does this change anything? How does this negate sakura's confession or the sasusaku or sasunaru bond ?


----------



## saasha (Apr 1, 2009)

contd.



> but that's okay since it's for the sake of such a _devoted true_ love of course. it's not sad to think that way at all.



Of course it's sad, it's painful & angsty to boot; one of the main selling points of the sasusaku pairing. It just isn't the pathetic sad that you are implying. I love sasusaku because I love Sasuke & Sakura. 

I'm no sasuke fangirl but _*sasuke*_ makes me want to shower him with tomatoes & affection,  because I see that he needs to be loved, genuinely & unconditionally loved. [I'd love to be able to adopt an orphan lil kid like him (smday), one of my life's longterm goal]. 

Sakura is the only one who can provide sasuke with gentle love of this magnitude while naruto & kakashi can provide him with tough familial love. He _needs_ them to show him that his life is worth living again, worth dreaming & looking forward to a bright future once again. 

Sasuke is a very private person. He rarely lets anyone in, but once he lets em in, he finds it difficult to cast them out, as seen by his lingering attachment to his clan, to Itachi, to Team 7. He was a boy that had forgotten how to live, love & trust. Then comes Team 7 who wormed their way into a dying heart that began to want to live, love & trust again. He couldn't afford to feel this way as long as Itachi was alive. So, he leaves, giving up his chance at happiness. 

Note, I see this move as self-sacrificial & stupidly noble on sasuke's part & not selfish like most seem to believe. So, I just feel that it is _poetic justice_ for sasuke to be rewarded with all the happiness that he felt he had to sacrifice. To me, for sasuke's character to begin healing completely, he would have to achieve both his goals- revenge & revival of his clan; a perfect resolution for his character. The only woman I can see him falling in love with is Sakura. The only woman I can see him accepting such a form of love from is someone he already has a strong bond with. Sakura is the only one that fits the bill.

As for Sakura, she feels incomplete without sasuke by her side. As long as it's Sasuke that she is in love with, she won't be happy with anyone else besides him. I believe she genuinely loves him, always, no matter how much of a jerk he is to her (imo, he was never a jerk to her without good reason &  even Sakura is aware of this, which why she still loves & respects him so much). Her happiness lies in Sasuke & as long as that holds true, I will continue to wish her all the best. I want her happy & to stop giving those occasional strained fake smiles of hers that no one seems to be able to detect.




> it's just a coincidence that she became a more competent kunoichi in his absence.



No, it was quite intentional. I find it funny that people view this as a negative thing, almost as funny as blaming sasuke for her immaturity & inability to concentrate on training. 

lol. So, I guess this means I should tell my boyfriend, my friends, my laptop, TV, music, novels, mangas, paints...etc all to leave canada for atleast 3 yrs because I can't become a competent kunoichi...I mean a competent student if they insist on distracting me by just simply being around me.  Or are you saying that sasuke intentionally meant to distract sakura & manipulated her into skipping training so she could have fun with him?

You ignore the very important fact that she becomes strong _especially for him, in order to bring him back_ to her side. This is a good thing for sasusaku, it only goes to show how far she is willing to go to see him safe & sound beside him.  



> nothing in part two confirms it either. her reactions to sasuke can never just be about wanting him home and safe it's always because of her love which she never bothers to bring up but that's okay too cause it's established fact.



Of course it is about wanting him home & safe, but how does this disprove her love for him ( which is an established fact* smiles sweetly*)? It is you who needs to prove that she isn't still in love with him because there is nothing that says that she isn't, while everything supports the fact that the intensity of her love for him hasn't faded a tad bit.

You want her to dwell on something that brings back painful memories for her. This is sakura we're talking about. She tends to push her vulnerabilities to the back of her mind & act tough in front of her friends. She mentions that she is different from the old sakura, that from now on she was not going to cry about spilt milk & instead was going to concentrate on bringing sasuke back. It is as clear as black & white, why she isn't going to bring up her love for sasuke until the situation calls for it. 





> like naruto's crush on her only that's different because even if he hasn't said he doesn't have a crush on her anymore we can just assume otherwise cause he never mentions it and when he asks her on dates, blushes at the prospect of her feeding him and yells at sai for 'ruining a mood' he's only just joking around.



Ahh, but this is just you making assumptions. When have any of us said that naruto doesn't have a crush on sakura?




> she punched sai when he was bad mouthing him,
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Naruto is more of a protagonist than Sakura is & therefore there  is more focus on him. As of now, we don't know if sakura has thought about him as much or not because she hasn't been focused on as much as naruto. Let's wait until her turn comes before we make any hasty judgements alright? 

In any case the sasuke-thinking moments that she has been given focus on have been pivotal & intense enough for me. *shrug*




> naruto is definitely the kind of person who shares his pain with others whenever the opportunity presents itself for self-gratification. sakura too.



Actually naruto is to an extent, he just needs someone to persistently reach out to him, imo. ( I don't see how self-gratification fits in with anything I said in my prev post, so i'll leave it out) Yes, he tends to push his pain aside & put on a cheery pretense but he's definitely more receptive to sharing his pain, fears & vulnerability than someone like, say Sasuke or even sakura for that matter. He just needs people to genuinely reach out to him, feelings of pity or guilt excluded.  Iruka managed, Hinata managed, Shikamaru managed, Sai & Sakura managed, they all managed to reach out to him at different moments of pain & vulnerability. 

Sakura, OTOH, I agree, is harder to read & tends to give out fake smiles as easily as genuine ones & she seems pretty good at them since none of her friends can tell them apart. ( I wonder if Ino or sasuke can?XD)







> yes there is ample opportunity to discuss their love life's in the midst of the not so important things happening around them.



Exactly, Its soooo funny that you conveniently use this as an excuse for her not mentioning her fading love sasuke to naruto while at the same time you expect her to renew her vows....uh sry, I meant discuss her love for sasuke in the midst of the not so important things happening around them.


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## saasha (Apr 1, 2009)

kageneko said:


> i have no problems being civil. in fact the initial post you quoted was me being _nice._ it really was. (well as nice as the post i responded to allowed with it's overall message of 'i pity those narusaku fools with their straw grasping and inability to understand sakura's never ending devotion to her one tru love D:' )



Sry, I didn't mean to sound like I was pitying them. I guess my frustration just spilled out into my sentence without me even realizing it. Didn't mean to offend. I don't normally let it happen.  I'm sure you understand what I mean, since you tend to do that a lot yourself. 



> also I did refrain from getting into the finer aspects of SS straw grasping after all.



well, no one asked you to. I don't see how SS requires any straw grasping at all, imo.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 1, 2009)

> but if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that this sakura all but disappeared before the end of the chuunin exams & it was partly due to sasuke's influence that she corrects herself.



Panel evidence and something more than speculation would be nice 



> What matters is that Sasuke was touched by it & felt that it warranted a heartfelt Thank You.


You really asked for it:

Guess what. Sakura acknowledges Naruto's feelings for her in that scene.

Yeah. I said it. And I'm a SasuNaru fan.
And she thanks him.



> Sakura is the only one who can provide sasuke with gentle love of this magnitude while naruto & kakashi can provide him with tough familial love.



I honestly can't believe anyone can even _assume_ the person Sasuke needs to RELAX is Sakura. I guess bigger the indifference the more it just proves that.

I really can't bother to counter such generalized notions - maybe Kageneko will pull out some miracle >_>.


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## moonjump05 (Apr 1, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> Let's try to look for things from part 2 of the manga as i have said the crush of a 12 year old girl holds no ground in my book.



And the crush of a twelve year old boy is so much better?



> That is really not true Naruto and Sakura have had the most chartacter development out off all the characters in the manga.



Oh they've had character development for sure.  Can you show it to be romantic?



WriterforHire said:


> What I am attempting to say in this, is that for Sasusaku to happen, something radical must happen to Sasuke. While there?s a high possibility that such a thing will happen (it?s been hinted enough that Naruto will pound sense into Sasuke one way or another for that to be very clear) it still stands that currently if things were to continue naturally Sasuke would never return to Konaha, and therefore Sasusaku could not occur.



So for SasuSaku to happen, a foreshadowed event that will likely take place has to occur?  



> Prior to this event, the natural, day-to-day interactions between Naruto and Hinata also would have prevented them ever getting together. Think about it for a moment: Why is Hinata a side character? It?s because she?s less important to Naruto then those others who are main characters. To Naruto, whether he knows it or not, there are levels of precious people. They are all important to him: He wants their respect and he would willingly fight, protect and die for all of them. But he?s infinitely more close to those who stand directly beside him on that line of people to those who stand farther away. If Naruhina were to happen, Hinata would have to _ become _ a main character, such a transformation happened to Chichi, after all.
> 
> But due to the very nature of their relationship, something drastic like the recent development _had_ to have happened in order for Hinata to break through Naruto?s obliviousness, but not for Naruhina to become a strong possibility.




*Spoiler*: __ 



You do know that Hinata's confession and 'death' are almost the exact same conditions that happened when Sasuke jumped in front of Haku in the Wave Country Arc?  Someone sacrifices themselves for Naruto- he is shocked and doesn't know why- he goes crazy- the other person doesn't die- and he develops a strong bond with someone he never thought he would.  Even the reaction panels, tears and Naruto gripping his shirt are parallels.






> This is not so for Narusaku.
> 
> Nothing needs to change in their current relationship. Sasuke needs to come back to Konaha and willing wants to stay there and abandon his thirst for revenge. Hinata had to overcome the shyness of her character and have some decent conversations and interactions with Naruto.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Will Naruto fail in his goal of redeeming Sasuke?  Do you really think Hinata hasn't just shown her own change?  






> But Naruto and Sakura don?t need any change. Since the very beginning of the manga, the Sasusaku bond started negative, became stronger and then broke as Sasuke left.



If their bond broke, then why is Sakura going to such extremes to bring him back?  If she cut herself off from him, she wouldn't still be trying to protect him.



> The Naruhina bond started neutral, became stronger (with the Chunin Exams arc) and then stagnated as no significant moments occurred,




*Spoiler*: __ 



I think we are in the middle of a fairly significant moment of their relationship.






> but with Narusaku there was growth and constant growth.



Once Sasuke left sure.  They became the teammates that they should have been since part 1.



> Naruto _never_ becomes annoyed with Sakura. Not when she demands that he retrieve Sasuke for her own sake, not when she hits him, or yells at him, or calls him an idiot.



So Naruto taking it like a doormat is a good thing?



> Likewise, such negative things appear less and less from Sakura and we see that the two of them become close friends. At the moment, of all the three pairings, they are the single most, closest bond.



Well I would hope such negative things appear less, since you know they are becoming friends.  And they do have an amazingly close bondover their mutual desire to bring back Sasuke, but I still don't see any romantic arguments in your post.



> Naruto cares more for Sakrua than he does for Hinata. And that is solely in a purely platonic sense. With Narusaku I have a firm foundation: I _know_ how they interact, day to day. I don?t know how Sasuke and Sakura would interact should he suddenly have a constant presence in her life, or how Naruto and Hinata would react, especially if she reverts back to her shy behavior around him now that his life isn?t immediately in danger.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm sure Kishi is going to have Hinata not blush or stutter and prove herself a changed person only to immediately revert back...






> My last argument for Narusaku is a purely aesthetic one, and merely comes form my inner writer and personal believes. I don?t believe in love at first sight. I think love must be _made_ which is why I think Hinata?s feelings so dwarfs Naruto?s feelings for Sakura. Because Naruto _knows_ Sakura. He sees her everyday. He talks to her everyday. Hinata?s feelings originated from an aspect of Naruto that she greatly admired: His determination and will to never give up. She saw one scene and ?fell in love? after that. Yet, for some reason or another, she couldn?t find the courage to come up and speak to him. Sakura didn?t want to be near Naruto, and didn?t see his positive side, but through their constant interactions *she was forced to see what Hinata saw naturally and came to respect and admire Naruto*. But here?s the thing. Sakura?s admiration for Naruto is _growing_ while Hinata?s have _peaked_.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Since when did Hinata's feelings for Naruto happen overnight?  She saws that's she watched him for a long time, Sakura said that Hinata was always watching Naruto.  And this happened mainly before the series started.
Hinata did see naturally what Sakura was forced to see... how in any way does that make her feelings less?
Hinata's love for Naruto has peaked?  Oh, yeah, she 'peaked' at l_oving Naruto enough to die for him_.  While Sakura's feelings for Naruto are 'growing'... somewhere... who knows...  So of course Sakura's feelings are stronger...


 



> So why shouldn?t he get Sakura too? I?m gonna root for Naruto ? he tends to win.



A Sakura who doesn't want him that way?  A Sakura he himself doesn't seem to want all that much?  Not to mention Sakura doesn't owe Naruto anything for whatever he does on his own.


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## m o l o k o (Apr 1, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Oh they've had character development for sure.  Can you show it to be romantic?



I don?t think it was said to be necessarily romantic.
The point is that their bond between them have grown to much just to be thrown out of the way now.


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## Tony Lou (Apr 1, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> 1. I dislike when one mocks the strength of Naruto's feelings just because they have...more lighthearted moments then angsty inner monologues.
> 
> 2. Relegating Sakura's feelings to nothing, in itself, is flawed, as that's not where the manga has pointed for a long time, and i can debate you on that.
> 
> 3. In spite of the blatant ignorance of attempting to simplify and condense NaruSaku into an offhand saying by Yamato, i can say with clarity that your statement is heavily biased and not at all thought out.



1. I didn't mock,what i meant was that,since it's a comedy scene,it's not supposed to be taken seriously.

2. I didn't mean it was nothing,i only meant that it has never seemed to be more than friendship on her side.

3. We are all biased here.


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## WriterforHire (Apr 1, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> Writer-sama, you are wins.
> I loved that little manifesto, NS is unfortuantly pwning NH and SS. They have that background.



Thank you. I don't know necessarily if it was a manifesto, I just read through the posts and made a overall arguement for all the topics raised and threw it in here to see what happens. I was waiting for a debater to arrive, and I believe I found one in Moonjump, who, by the way, I'm sorry to say must wait a tiny bit as I gather up my counterarguements. As you can see, I'm a tad..._longwinded._


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## Kathutet (Apr 1, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that Hinata's confession and 'death' are almost the exact same conditions that happened when Sasuke jumped in front of Haku in the Wave Country Arc?  Someone sacrifices themselves for Naruto- he is shocked and doesn't know why- he goes crazy- the other person doesn't die- and he develops a strong bond with someone he never thought he would.  Even the reaction panels, tears and Naruto gripping his shirt are parallels.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto's deep bond with Sasuke was already created wway before Sasuke sacrificed himself. Your argument is invalid, sorry.


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## kubik (Apr 1, 2009)

^ but not brotherly just like his bond with hinata was not romantic

meh why am I even posting this :/


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## Emily (Apr 1, 2009)

saasha said:


> Yes, it was, because it showed _Sasuke_ the depth of her feelings for him. He understood her pain of lonliness even if you didnt.



What pain of loneliness? Honestly, if Sasuke had the nerve to question _Naruto's_ pain, why do you think he'd willingly acknowledge something like that about Sakura, who had family and friends?



> Sasuke didn't open up to anyone about his past not to her & not to naruto or Kakashi. He never willingly talked to her, naruto or kakashi about his past & he did act like he hated her, most of the time. Sasuke tended to repress & keep all his feelings bottled up. The only time he let his guard down with naruto was when he was dying & with sakura? Whenever he felt pressurised by her, he tended to let slip a little of himself to her.



I think that Sasuke opened up to Naruto in the fight against Haku, seemed to be fond of him through the chuunin exams and then spat out his guts at the Valley of the End. 



> As for Sakura, she feels incomplete without sasuke by her side. As long as it's Sasuke that she is in love with, she won't be happy with anyone else besides him. I believe she genuinely loves him, always, no matter how much of a jerk he is to her (imo, he was never a jerk to her without good reason & even Sakura is aware of this, which why she still loves & respects him so much). Her happiness lies in Sasuke & as long as that holds true, I will continue to wish her all the best. I want her happy & to stop giving those occasional strained fake smiles of hers that no one seems to be able to detect.



I'm pretty shocked to be honest. Sakura doesn't seem "incomplete" in any way. When Sasuke was around, we saw her whimpering and worrying after him most the time. But Naruto was able to make her smile. _That's_ when I thought she looked happier than ever.

As for Sasuke being a jerk to Sakura, he was. When Sakura worried after him, he told it was none of her business and even told her bluntly to shut up. That seems pretty jerk-ish to me. Also, according to the image I've gotten of Sakura, I can't imagine her, both physically and emotionally strong girl, going around Sasuke's feet obeying his every wish in an attempt to fix his poor soul or something like that. More like that she hits his face in or smashes his nuts. I mean... sure she's got a soft spot for him, just like she does for Naruto, but to me it doesn't look like she's pursuing him romantically anymore.


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## Griever (Apr 1, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> And the crush of a twelve year old boy is so much better?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kathutet (Apr 1, 2009)

kubik said:


> ^ but not brotherly just like his bond with hinata was not romantic
> 
> meh why am I even posting this :/


Then why does your friend not even blink when he's comparing them?

Oh, and his bond with Hinata is not romantic. Hinata's bond with him is romantic. _Difference._

Because it gets you postcount just like me?


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 1, 2009)

The Luiz said:


> 3. We are all biased here.


 
Quoted for truth of the utmost. Don't know how many times I've said this.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 1, 2009)

Some are more biased than others.

Or provide weak arguements. Doesn't hurt to counter one's own claims before others have to.


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## Kathutet (Apr 1, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Some are more biased than others.
> 
> Or provide weak arguements. Doesn't hurt to counter ones own claims before others have to.


Quoted for truth of the utmost. Don't know how many times I've said this.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 1, 2009)

> Some are more biased than others.


 
I would love to know how you measure that.



> Quoted for truth of the utmost. Don't know how many times I've said this.


 
Mocking is for those who have nothing important to say.

Anyway, I do believe the next few chapters [as the past few ones] are going to change the romantic dynamics in this manga. Until then, we have little to argue.


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## kubik (Apr 1, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:
			
		

> Then why does your friend not even blink when he's comparing them?


My friend? Im too old I dont know any new ppl here 



			
				Kitsune Naruto said:
			
		

> Oh, and his bond with Hinata is not romantic. Hinata's bond with him is romantic. Difference.


In the words of mighty Q:

Irrelevant totally irrelevant to my post  

My point was to prove that moonjump05 statement had valid reasons to exist. Not to prove that Naruto has romantic bonds with Hinata. Besides, you didnt actually counter my opinion/fact that Naruto bond with Sasuke wasnt brotherly before Zabuza arc. Because this is what you should do if you want to counter MY post. And I don't think you can because they really started their brotherly relationship after haku arc. Before it was just rivaly.

But you know what, even IF 


> Naruto's deep bond with Sasuke was already created way before Sasuke sacrificed himself.


is true. It doesnt change the fact that this arc is bloody simillar in some aspects and panel usage to the point of copy and paste.




			
				Kitsune Naruto said:
			
		

> Because it gets you postcount just like me?


Xd rep pawah!  




> NS is unfortuantly pwning NH and SS.


Opinion: 
Okay Im sorry it slipped ;p its just amusing how different you can view the same manga panel 

btw Izzy I  your av ;P



> I would love to know how you measure that.


As a narusasu fan [and hater of ns, ss and nh] Izzy is the least biased in this discussion.


----------



## Kathutet (Apr 1, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I would love to know how you measure that.
> 
> .
> 
> ...


Hypocrisy is for those who don't like consistency.

They will? Well, truthfully, if 441 chapters didn't change Naruto's opinion on Sakura, why would a few chapters do so? Because someone sacrificed herself? Because he was hurt? Or just because NH was planned out from the beginning? Honestly, if this was to be true it would have happened a while ago, don't you think?

_This_ is what will happen. Naruto will have immense respect for our admirable Hyuuga, Hinata. He will respect and care for her. He will not ignore her like at the start of part one again, he will notice her. It's a fairly easy concept. Kishi is showing us what will change. Naruto not noticing Hinata → Naruto will notice Hinata. Sakura not noticing Naruto → Sakura noticing Naruto. Etc. 

This concept is so easy to grasp, that even twelve-year-olds have noticed. I kid you not, and you know this to be true when you listen to what a young fellow fan has to say (relative perhaps?).

But there is a difference between _noticing_ and _loving romantically.
_That is why I don't think Narusaku, SasuSaku and NaruHina are possible... _Yet_. Yes, I ship NaruSaku. But I am realistic, not biased. If NaruHina happens, so fucking be it. I'll ignore the twelve panels of NaruHina in this manga and move on with my life. If NaruSaku happens, so fucking be it. I'll skip the other twelve panels in this manga and move on.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 1, 2009)

> As a narusasu fan [and hater of ns, ss and nh] Izzy is the least biased in this discussion.


 
An opinion by one person does not really quantify it. Wasn't saying she was more / less biased; you can't measure it without being biased yourself.


----------



## Kathutet (Apr 1, 2009)

kubik said:


> My friend? Im too old I dont know any new ppl here
> 
> 
> In the words of mighty Q:
> ...


Oki.

Partially agreed. Moonjump had valid reasons indeed. However;
Did you even look at the panels during the VotE fight? It shows them multiple times before they were in the same team, as friends. There was brotherly love even before the Zabuza arc.


----------



## kubik (Apr 1, 2009)

> An opinion by one person does not really quantify it. Wasn't saying she was more / less biased; you can't measure it without being biased yourself.


I was wrong damn.. ;d
Izzy IS biased... in negative way towards the big 3. 
Thus she will hunt down and destroy every stupid pro-ns/nh/ss-argument that is not really valid.



> Kubik I don't know whether to be scared or amazed


Amazed, amazed! 

@Kitsune Naruto



> But there is a difference between noticing and loving romantically.


HSD




> That is why I don't think Narusaku, SasuSaku and NaruHina are possible... Yet. Yes, I ship NaruSaku. But I am realistic, not biased. If NaruHina happens, so fucking be it. I'll ignore the twelve panels of NaruHina in this manga and move on with my life. If NaruSaku happens, so fucking be it. I'll skip the other twelve panels in this manga and move on.


There will be romance, Kishi said it :ho



> Did you even look at the panels during the VotE fight? It shows them multiple times before they were in the same team, as friends. There was brotherly love even before the Zabuza arc.


plot device
Chouji, Kiba, Nara and Naruto were friends also in academy and YET Naruto was soo alone and Sasuke was his first bond. 
BUT
I can also say that did not realise that Sasuke was that important to him, and yes it could be the case with Hinata too.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 1, 2009)

Before the Team 7 bond Naruto explains it nicely what he had towards Sasuke.

Admiration 
Wish to be aknowledged/speak to the other 
Empathy 
Less loneliness since they both recognized/understood each other's plight [he said he was happy] 

--> friendship

Which is why Naruto flashbacks all that and says, "I won't let Orochimaru take you Sasuke" 

Kubik is right about me. But she forgets I hate double standards more and can use them against my own pairing.


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## Kathutet (Apr 1, 2009)

kubik said:


> @Kitsune Naruto
> 
> 
> HSD
> ...


That's noticing. Lulz.

And I just said that I will put up with it no matter what becomes canon.
But I might stab Kishi in the eyes if he makes the choice that I don't really want.

My preferences are as follows (lol random... ) NS > NH > SS
I'd rather see NaruSaku. But I'd rather see NaruHina, not SasuSaku. 
And one pairing that tops them all, but will likely never become canon at all.

SasuNaruSasu.


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## kubik (Apr 1, 2009)

> Kubik is right about me. But she forgets I hate double standards more and can use them against my own pairing.


God I wish :< I'd stay at home and play with my breasts all the time 


Yes Im a boy 



> That's noticing. Lulz.


NARUHINA IZ HIR!!!1111oneoneonmoe and twelve 

You know its those tiny pieces like that one that I love in nh ;p


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 1, 2009)

Ah sorry Kubik, I knew you were a boy [srsly]. I just forget things sometimes. Like how running to KN4 isn't romantic development.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Apr 1, 2009)

The Luiz said:


> 1. I didn't mock,what i meant was that,since it's a comedy scene,it's not supposed to be taken seriously.
> 
> 2. I didn't mean it was nothing,i only meant that it has never seemed to be more than friendship on her side.
> 
> 3. We are all biased here.




1. from what i could see, you insinuated that from that scene,that  NaruSaku as a whole was not to be taken seriously because of Sakura's comedic reaction, hence my response.

2. Like i said, i'll debate with you on that if you wish.

3. Biased or non biased, there are facts and there are interpretations, being biased has nothing to do with observing facts and making observations.


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## Kathutet (Apr 1, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> 3. Biased or non biased, there are facts and there are interpretations, being biased has nothing to do with observing facts and making observations.


Merely correcting you;

Being biased affects your observations. I can see SasuNaru when you see brotherly love, I can see a timid girl in Hinata while you see a stalker.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 1, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Merely correcting you;
> 
> Being biased affects your observations. I can see SasuNaru when you see brotherly love, I can see a timid girl in Hinata while you see a stalker.



On the contrary, like i've told izzy many times, i can understand where NaruSasu comes from, its not like one refuses to see implications and where they could lead, that's where interpretation and fact are split. You can think something and at the same time understand where the other person is coming from.  And again contrary to your belief, Hinata is my third favorite character, and i've never felt her to be a stalker, but a girl who tries to follow her inspiration into being a better stronger individual.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Its only after 437 that i've become disappointed in Kishi's depiction of  her as being merely pairing fodder who's only goal in life is to earn Naruto's love, i'd like her to become stronger, but not just because of NaruHina or anything like that.


----------



## Milkshake (Apr 1, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> Thank you. I don't know necessarily if it was a manifesto, I just read through the posts and made a overall arguement for all the topics raised and threw it in here to see what happens. I was waiting for a debater to arrive, and I believe I found one in Moonjump, who, by the way, I'm sorry to say must wait a tiny bit as I gather up my counterarguements. As you can see, I'm a tad..._longwinded._



Manifesto was just a word for which I couldn't find another just as well, it's a compliment none the less.  

And I can't wait until you post again, I like your longwinded wisdom.


----------



## Milkshake (Apr 1, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> So too you SS fans: So I'm presuming (just presuming/inferring, not knowing your intended idea) that there is no such things as maturing from a one-sided 'love' that has caused her so much pain and trauma- over a 2 1/2 year separation in Sakura's case, no? Sakura must always love Sasuke because that's her ONE GOAL; no, not because she obviously cares that Naruto's also in pain from the departure of his close friend and that she doesn't want to see him hurt anymore, but JUST SOLELY due to the fact that she has a undying, unconditional true love for Sasuke that can never break, no matter how closer she is with Naruto than she ever was with Sasuke, and that Naruto has had more the positive influence over her than Sasuke will ever have, no. Because Sakura has a confession, a declaration of love to Sasuke's backside back in PART I, she must still and always love him.
> 
> Rite?


 Answer to my question would be fairly pleasing


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 1, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> Answer to my question would be fairly pleasing



I'll answer you peaceluv pek you know how I love SasuSaku



> So I'm presuming (just presuming/inferring, not knowing your intended idea) that there is no such things as maturing from a one-sided 'love' that has caused her so much pain and trauma- over a 2 1/2 year separation in Sakura's case, no?



Sakura has matured, and the obvious conclusion is so has her love. Now she doesn't walk all over Naruto anymore [thanks to Sasuke btw!] and she has grown independent [which is the obvious reason she's going to save Sasuke herself and feels Naruto shouldn't ]. You see her feelings have grown so serious for instance when she cries over a Team 7 picture with a moon in the background. Fear my flawless evidence.



> Sakura must always love Sasuke because that's her ONE GOAL; no, not because she obviously cares that Naruto's also in pain from the departure of his close friend and that she doesn't want to see him hurt anymore, but JUST SOLELY due to the fact that she has a undying, unconditional true love for Sasuke that can never break, no matter how closer she is with Naruto than she ever was with Sasuke, and that Naruto has had more the positive influence over her than Sasuke will ever have, no. Because Sakura has a confession, a declaration of love to Sasuke's backside back in PART I, she must still and always love him.



I will obliterate this. Walking away from a confession with a _thank you_ isn't rejection. Don't give me the "Who wouldn't say thank you to whipe their hands" notion cos this isn't real life and Sasuke is emotionally retarded thus he is so amazingly grateful it's as if he never ignored or mistreated her ever. Sakura has no reason to not wait for Sasuke to come back and sweep her up in his arms. I have faith in the fact when Sasuke comes back, he will learn to love her if he already doesn't. Why? Cos Sasuke can be healed with her love. Her devotion and care is just what he needs I say. Even if he never wanted or sought it in any way under romantic circumstances it is still suggestive, guarantee. NaruSaku ain't got nothing on this. She can't change despite ambiguous development. But Sasuke can. He's as mutable as a ninja turtle. Same for Naruto, he will realize what true love is and be fascinated by Hinata, whose protection goes far and beyond normal standards cos she said I love you at the end. All other interactions are fodder cos they're aren't labelled romantic with open declarations. Cos love is loud. Naruto would totally do so if he loved her so much [though Sasuke doesn't...he has other to worry about ...]. I mean, he understands there is no hope for him. That Sakura surely never showed him affection or tears for his sake in Part 2 that could suggest romantic viability. He asks dates for sport. Hinata's I'm-not-doing-anything is justified by her shyness


----------



## JERITROLL (Apr 1, 2009)

^XD, I love your sarcasm Izzy, it makes life on this board fun .



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Merely correcting you;
> 
> Being biased affects your observations. I can see SasuNaru when you see brotherly love, I can see a timid girl in Hinata while you see a stalker.



QFT, 'cause that paragraph..... That's me. Although I wouldn't label Hinata a stalker, I'd call her background fodder. But again, just me, and I know that others think differently. That's why I constantly say I don't mean to offend, but that I simply am stating my biased opinion, and unless I have solid facts, it should be taken with a heavy dosage of salt XD.


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## Milkshake (Apr 1, 2009)

Wow, I nao see the world clearly  Thank you Goddess of SasuSaku aka Izzy. I would've never realized such canonz and ability in this pairing if it wasn't for that remarkable speech.

Another question: But what about the fact that 'Sasuke didn't really want to kill his Sakura-chan because he could've used the body flicker technique if he REALLY WANTED to!1 The look in his eyes showed love not annoyance/irritation!' Sasuke could kill his brother/ the closest person he has in the entire village but he can't kill his love!Sakura becuz' he heard her confession and his backside seen HER TEARS! 

Rite?


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 1, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> Another question: But what about the fact that 'Sasuke didn't really want to kill his Sakura-chan because he could've used the body flicker technique if he REALLY WANTED to!1 The look in his eyes showed love not annoyance/irritation!' Sasuke could kill his brother/ the closest person he has in the entire village but he can't kill his love!Sakura becuz' he heard her confession and his backside seen HER TEARS!


i don't remember hearing a sasusaku fan saying that sasuke couldn't kill sakura cos it's obvious that he could!
just as you said he _*killed*_ his brother who normally is your dearest and  balallalalla person


----------



## Milkshake (Apr 1, 2009)

Sarcasm is a wonderful thing my dear friend :ho
I have seen a SS say that theory before, not anyone in this thread however.
Sasuke _was_ going to kill Sakura, he wouldn't have lightened up his sword and zooming over to her very spot, and Yamato wouldn't have sensed it if not. At the end of the all, he was going to kill both Naruto and Sakura. I just dislike that arguement.


----------



## Hikui (Apr 1, 2009)

@Kageneko: Sorry for the late response! 



kageneko said:


> no it doesn't. but accusing an already annoyed person of being essentially the _only one_ _"I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you"_ in this thread of nitpicking and sarcasm doesn't really help either.



Oh then I'm sorry, I know you're not the only one but if my words were too harsh then my bad. It wasn't meant as a direct and hateful attack. 

Peace?



kageneko said:


> just like it would be meaningless to reiterate them or naruto's feelings for that matter.
> 
> honestly i wouldn't have even noticed you responded to me if i didn't read another posters reply to it
> 
> so i basically went back and zeroed in on what you said to just me and took it from there.



Agreed. I still think Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura whether they exist or not need to be addressed if NaruHina is happening. That is what should be done to make it clear but at this point.... I just don't know what Kishimoto is planning. I have my theories tho. 



kageneko said:


> excellent. it would be a waste of time to do so.



Exactly my thoughts. 

It's funny what's happening in this thread. Not much has been said in the last couple of pages...

*bored*


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## kubik (Apr 1, 2009)

> Agreed. I still think Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura whether they exist or not need to be addressed if NaruHina is happening.


If I remeber right Kishi already adressed that back in that famous hospital scene and with poal. Not direcly connected to NaruHina but to his feelngs for Sakura nevertheless


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## moonjump05 (Apr 1, 2009)

yalimei said:


> I don´t think it was said to be necessarily romantic.
> The point is that their bond between them have grown to much just to be thrown out of the way now.



And again I ask why does it have to be thrown away?  Especially if their bond is not romantic.



Grieverff8 said:


> moonjump05 said:
> 
> 
> > And the crush of a twelve year old boy is so much better?
> ...



Well, we'll have to disagree here because I've seen nothing that makes me think Sakura's romantic feelings for Sasuke are gone.  Sure it isn't highlighted much- only a few scenes like crying with the moon and her reactions towards him.  But certainly nothing to show her feelings have changed or are gone.
All while Naruto has shown signs of moving on, not caring about rejected dates, using a date to cover up his own feelings, no arrow or mention in his databook profile of Sakura as a romantic interest anymore, plus the PoaL where he acknowledges Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and accepts them.

And Sakura's romantic feelings for Sasuke grew into love while Naruto's romantic feelings for her never seemed to get beyond crush phase.


----------



## The Duchess (Apr 1, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> And again I ask why does it have to be thrown away?  Especially if their bond is not romantic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that seriously that only basis for SS canon? Really?

How does a moon represent anything? And her reactions towards him? Like shock? She hasn't seen Sasuke in 2 1/2 years, he deserted the village! Of course she's gonna be shocked to see him. Wasn't Naruto shocked as well?

I'm smelling a double standard. So only Naruto's feelings can fade, not Sakura's? Asking Sakura out apparently isn't enough to prove that _he still has feelings for her_. I still can't get over that ridiculous logic. What do you _want_ him to do? Confession undying love to her? That's hardly Naruto's style, to randomly go "I love you, Sakura-chan!". It seems like the only way for people to actually take Naruto's feelings seriously is if he does something blatantly in your face. Yet somehow, this doesn't apply with SS, or NH. We have to rely on stuff like tears and shock for SS, and a one-sided confession for NH, with nothing coming from the other sides.

So using your logic, nothing's been shown to prove that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are gone, either.


----------



## kubik (Apr 1, 2009)

> It seems like the only way for people to actually take Naruto's feelings seriously is if he does something blatantly in your face. Yet somehow, this doesn't apply with SS, or NH.


LOLWUT?! You speak about double standards using THIS example?
I still remember how according to NS Hinata only admired Naruto.
;/



> What do you want him to do?


Be serious about them. Yes Im referring to chapter called 'nicknames' That comical atmosphere that is there almost everytime isnt helping in taking them serious too.



> So using your logic, nothing's been shown to prove that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are gone, either.


I am fully aware that Naruto loves Sakura. 
But like I said many times in the past, Kishi made him realise that Sakura loves Sasuke for a reason.


----------



## moonjump05 (Apr 1, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> Is that seriously that only basis for SS canon? Really?
> 
> How does a moon represent anything? And her reactions towards him? Like shock? She hasn't seen Sasuke in 2 1/2 years, he deserted the village! Of course she's gonna be shocked to see him. Wasn't Naruto shocked as well?



The moon is the same that appeared during chapter 181 when she confessed- it's a direct visual link to that scene.  Her reactions were more of shock, transfixtion, worry, anxiety from when she first saw him again and when they were searching for him later.  Again, these aren't proofs of her love- that's her confession.  But rather signs that she still harbors those feelings.



> I'm smelling a double standard. So only Naruto's feelings can fade, not Sakura's?



And I'm smelling a straw man.  I never said that Sakura's feelings couldn't fade- only that I saw nothing to make me think they had.



> Asking Sakura out apparently isn't enough to prove that _he still has feelings for her_. I still can't get over that ridiculous logic. What do you _want_ him to do? Confession undying love to her? That's hardly Naruto's style, to randomly go "I love you, Sakura-chan!". It seems like the only way for people to actually take Naruto's feelings seriously is if he does something blatantly in your face.



I've never said that his romantic feelings for her are completely gone- I've said that they are not serious.  Naruto doesn't take them seriously, Kishi never bothers to portray them in a serious light.

If Naruto were truly serious in his feelings, then I would expect more from him than what I've seen so far.




> Yet somehow, this doesn't apply with SS, or NH. We have to rely on stuff like tears and shock for SS, and a one-sided confession for NH, with nothing coming from the other sides.




*Spoiler*: __ 



With NaruHina we will have to wait a few chapters before we can definitively say that there is nothing from Naruto's side- however we do get him thinking about her clutching his chest above his heart and crying in relief that she isn't dead.






> So using your logic, nothing's been shown to prove that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are gone, either.



I already posted my reasons for thinking that Naruto's interest in Sakura has faded.  If you want to debate those then be more specific.


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 1, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto was relieved that nobody from Konoha was hurt, not just Hinata.  Hinata got focus because he was right next to him when he went Kyuubi.

So there is nothing romantic about that, it's platonic.




And I seriously doubt Naruto's feelings had faded.  After all, he's had alot to contend with lately.


----------



## WriterforHire (Apr 2, 2009)

First off, I want to apologize for this being so delayed, I've been a bit busy this week, hope you all don't mind. But, before I jump in, I have a few things I must say. First, of most importance, what the heck happened to the site? What is all this BWAKAME and Excalibur junk? Was the site hacked? It seems that way to me. Secondly, could someone possibly show me how to quote multiple people in my posts? I've tried the "Multiquote" button beneath replies but it doesn't seem to work, so it looks like I'm going to have to focus on one individual at a time, which will further slow me down. Finally, a note to everyone in general: I promise this will be the last time you hear of it from me, but please, lay low on the sarcasm and insults. All it really does is stir up animosity and sting pride enough for individuals to lash out without actually thinking through and forming sound arguments. A calm, civic behavior is essential in any debate...if such discussions can still be considered debates, that is. 

Anyway: Here I go. (Pulls up sleeves)



moonjump05 said:


> Oh they've had character development for sure.  Can you show it to be romantic?



  The problem with development, of any kind, is that it's largely up to the viewer to determine whether or not that development is actually romantic in context or not. For example, prior to the recent events many Narusakuers believed that Hinata's feelings for Naruto were not meant to be viewed as romantic at all. Luckily, I can claim to be not among them, but, even so, it proves that point. 

  When looking at a character, one must balance three equally potent things. One: How are their feelings depicted? Two: What do you personally believe the nature of their feelings is? And Three: (the most important) What does the author intend to do with this character and their feelings? 

  Hinata can love Naruto all she wants, but if Kishi decides that her feelings will not be reciprocated or even not last over time, then that won't do her any good. To be honest, I'll take a strong, growing development that can be interpreted as either platonic or romantic at the discretion to the reader any day. 

  The problem with such debates is that the pairings are designed to mirror particular people and particular relationships, and because of that they are very much like flavors of ice-cream -  you can pick out which pairing you like the best at your own discretion due to the particular chemistry or "taste" of that pairing. In NaruHina we have a shy, introvert girl who admires a guy yet can't quite bring herself to speak to him, and I suspect, correct me if I am wrong, that the main draw to this pairing is the building up of Hinata's character till the point where she has the strength to confession and "win over" Naruto's heart. 

  In Narusaku, the draw, definitely on my end, is developing relationship between two friends, who share a common goal - a common link - and are determined to grow stronger together to bring back someone they care for. In comparing the two bonds, I view the Narusaku bond (purely platonic) as infinitely stronger than the Naruhina bond (purely romantic). 

  Because this is a common misconception that many have, that since a relationship is romantic in content that means it'll be stronger than a platonic, friendly relationship. I do not believe this. Despite it all, despite her love for him, Hinata does not yet _know_ Naruto. How could she? You can't get to know someone by watching them or by knowing facts about them. Hinata knows that Naruto is a goof and that he's also very determined, courageous and never gives up...but are these facts about him that she's observed or things that have come out because she _knows_ him? 

Perhaps this will be clearer: You ask if the development is romantic in content. I say: I don't know. And here's my question for you: Is open, stated, undeniable romantic development needed for a pairing to become canon? 





moonjump05 said:


> So for SasuSaku to happen, a foreshadowed event that will likely take place has to occur?



Ah! That was a bit of a slip up on my part. Thank you for catching that. 

   What I meant to say is for SasuSaku to be _possible_ Sasuke will have to come back. Also, I did not mean that this foreshadowed event (Naruto and Sasuke's confrontation) is likely to occur in Naruto's bringing Sasuke back, but rather it's very likely, almost assured, that the two will meet again and Naruto will try to convince him to turn his back to revenge and return to his old way of life. It's a assurance of a climax, not the assurance of a pairing. 

   What Sasusaku needs to become canon is threefold. First, Naruto has to find Sasuke again and they need to fight, which, is not entirely assured, even if very likely. Second, Naruto has to win and Sasuke must have a change of heart (not as likely, more on this later). Thirdly, Sasuke has to develop romantic feelings for Sakura. (Least likely of them all) 

   I think it’s safe to say that the fight between Naruto and Sasuke will happen near the end of the manga, if not be the very climax of the manga itself. Likely the conflict will be over Sasuke (and Madara) wishing to attack and destroy Konaha and Naruto singlehandedly (perhaps with Sakura and a few others) trying to stop them. Tragic endings could include Sasuke winning and destroying Konaha, Naruto having to kill Sasuke to protect Konaha (as foreshadowed by Itachi) and Naruto winning (or ending at a draw) but Sasuke decides to leave anyway and not stay with Naruto and help rebuild and live in Konaha. Another ending could be Sasuke agreeing to stay behind but it was a ruse to later destroy Konaha or him being forced out due to animosity by other ninjas / villagers. 

Basically, in order for Sasusaku to be possible everything must go perfectly right. Fate must be very kind indeed.  





moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that Hinata's confession and 'death' are almost the exact same conditions that happened when Sasuke jumped in front of Haku in the Wave Country Arc?  Someone sacrifices themselves for Naruto- he is shocked and doesn't know why- he goes crazy- the other person doesn't die- and he develops a strong bond with someone he never thought he would.  Even the reaction panels, tears and Naruto gripping his shirt are parallels.



An interesting parallel!

   And if your argument was because of this moment Naruto and Hinata can become closer as friends, then I'll agree with you. However, the parallel falls short in two main ways. One: That scene in the Wave Country Arc was not meant to be seen as romantic while this scene obviously was. Second: Naruto had a close bond (one of rivalry) with Sasuke even before this moment, while Naruto and Hinata did not have as close of a a bond. 

  Yet even if it was a parallel that held up in all aspects, was it a parallel that Kishi wanted to make? That's a problem I have with many of the parallel arguments. Just because a reader can draw out different aspects from various relationships and compare them to other relationships does not mean that Kishi had planned for such parallels. Such is the case with much poetry. Unless the author comes out and say, "This is what I meant / intended" it remains, and forever remains, a guess, a educated guess perhaps, but a guess nonetheless. 





moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Will Naruto fail in his goal of redeeming Sasuke?  Do you really think Hinata hasn't just shown her own change?



As I showed above, yes, I believe it’s entirely possible for Naruto to fail. After all, he failed in his last two attempts, did he not? In the end, almost anything is possible, even Naruhina (for me) and Narusaku (for you). But, there are levels to how _likely_ or how _unlikely_ such events are, which is the heart and soul of these debates. 

  As for the second part, I'm particularly glad you mentioned that. I have my own criticism against the recent development, but it has nothing to do with how "out of the blue" or "rushed" it was. Though I do believe that there is some truth in such claims, but my main issue isn't that it shouldn't have happened, but that it shouldn't have happened _yet._ More on this later. 

That's about it. A second part is coming.


----------



## Kage (Apr 2, 2009)

saasha said:


> Really? Why? It is a manga after all & officially declared, genuine, romantic feelings dont normally change every few yrs, unless it is a shojo manga which Naruto obviously isn't. Besides, _Sakura_ has given no indication at all that her feelings for sasuke have waned to platonic love. When she does, I'll begin to believe it.



don't normally so they can't? 0_o

doesn't really help your case much now does it if sasuke's _not_ romantic feelings for sakura won't change cause naruto is not a shojo manga. at least that much i can agree with you on.

hasn't been confirmed _or_ denied that much is evident regardless of what you believe.



> I'm honestly tired of people calling Sakura pathetic or useless. Imo, pathetic or useless doesn't freaking describe sakura at all ( & yes, I'm talking about the old sakura) The only thing she was is selfish & self-absorbed. I didn't think she was that much of a hinderance to her team either, after all she stepped in front of Tazuna as early as the zabuza arc when even naruto froze up in fear.



selfish and self-absorbed is so much better 
she stepped in front of zabuza and accomplished....? i suppose it's the thought that counts. she was uber useful the rest of that mission after all. standing there, in the mist, with a kunai...


> She had plenty of potential; she just never had special abilities like naruto or sasuke


because that obviously matters. just look at people like lee, gai, jiraiya, ten-ten....they didn't have to work for the special abilities they had. not at all. was born with it they were.



> or even a competent teacher that could help bring out her potential.


let's blame kakashi when she was just as _enthusiastic_ about learning ninjutsu as he was about teaching it! 



> Yes, Sakura in the beginning concentrated more on wooing sasuke rather than on training, but if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that this sakura all but disappeared before the end of the chuunin exams & it was partly due to sasuke's influence that she corrects herself.



i'd rather not discuss who's not paying attention to what because i could just point out that a wooing sakura didn't disappear until _sasuke_ did. wanna know how i know? because she actually _went_ to a teacher, _asked_(oh look finally some *initiative*) to be trained and _started *training*_ as a result 

 small part of a whole hun. she was influenced heavily by others moreso. 




> Yes, it was, because it showed _Sasuke_ the depth of her feelings for him. He understood her pain of lonliness even if you didnt. How you feel about her confession isn't important  (thank god for that), What matters is that _Sasuke_ was touched by it & felt that it warranted a heartfelt Thank You.



he did? that's why he was telling her he can't be like her and _naruto_? and he would think of _team 7_, her and _naruto _whenever she brought it up? and then told her that she's _still_ annoying? this was him understanding _her_ pain and loneliness?

yes thank god despite the fact i think it was tripe sasuke at least appreciated a genuine show of concern/care when he saw one. 

thank god how you feel about it is not important either or else SS would have been canon by now 

thank you is probably the best you're going to get so i don't blame you for  cherishing it so.




> uh.. Because he didn't?. Sasuke didn't open up to anyone about his past not to her & not to naruto or Kakashi. He never willingly talked to her, naruto or kakashi about his past & he did act like he hated her, most of the time. Sasuke tended to repress & keep all his feelings bottled up.


nah really? 
didn't stop him from eventually revealing bits of himself to each of them.


> The only time he let his guard down with naruto was when he was dying & with sakura? Whenever he felt pressurised by her, he tended to let slip a little of himself to her. So, it was natural that sakura would bring his unwillingness to confide in anyone in an attempt to get him to open up some more & what do you know, it worked ! He does attempt to explain things to her, even though he didn't have to give in at all.


only she didn't. she brought up his unwillingness to confide in _her_.
not just because he did it with everyone else too but because he wouldn't talk to _her_. letting a few things slip and never elaborating on them when asked was obviously upsetting to her.

yeah i pretty much figured out by now that sasuke's not a complete ass and was trying to make her understand. of course getting her to go back home and leave him be was a good incentive too.




> Sasuke is the type that is bent on suffering alone, never complaining & always refusing help from anyone. She knew this, which is why she questions him on these things. How does this change anything? How does this negate sakura's confession or the sasusaku or sasunaru bond ?


how is it suppose to? 

negate her confession? regardless of how ineffective it was it happened even i acknowledge that but _because it was selfish_ it has less of an impact on what something like this should make me feel. it certainly didn't get sasuke to realize the error of his ways or to empathize with sakura _exclusively_. 

i'm not trying to disprove (the however fragile) sasusaku bond itself only saying that confession didn't make it a romantic one. (nor did it really give it much hope for becoming one)

i don't know why you brought up sasunaru. but you really really _don't_ want to continue on that train of thought.



saasha said:


> Of course it's sad, it's painful & angsty to boot; one of the main selling points of the sasusaku pairing. It just isn't the pathetic sad that you are implying. I love sasusaku because I love Sasuke & Sakura.


if you say so but just because _you_ think it isn't pathetic doesn't mean i have to.


> I'm no sasuke fangirl but _*sasuke*_ makes me want to shower him with tomatoes & affection,  because I see that he needs to be loved, genuinely & unconditionally loved. [I'd love to be able to adopt an orphan lil kid like him (smday), one of my life's longterm goal].
> 
> Sakura is the only one who can provide sasuke with gentle love of this magnitude while naruto & kakashi can provide him with tough familial love. He _needs_ them to show him that his life is worth living again, worth dreaming & looking forward to a bright future once again.


....

and sakura's the absolute _best_ person for the job of tender lovin care amirite?

if i didn't know any better this would have convinced me your trolling. though knowing that you're _serious_ makes me wish you were 



> Note, I see this move as self-sacrificial & stupidly noble on sasuke's part & not selfish like most seem to believe. So, I just feel that it is _poetic justice_ for sasuke to be rewarded with all the happiness that he felt he had to sacrifice. To me, for sasuke's character to begin healing completely, he would have to achieve both his goals- revenge & revival of his clan; a perfect resolution for his character. The only woman I can see him falling in love with is Sakura. The only woman I can see him accepting such a form of love from is someone he already has a strong bond with. Sakura is the only one that fits the bill



sasuke "sacrificed" not out of _necessity_ because he didn't need to break his bonds just was damn convinced that he had too. he'd be lucky to get any of it back after giving it away to indulgence himself in revenge and power. 

such a character should certainly be rewarded for such a _noble_ deed and what better way to do that then to pair him up with a girl who doesn't really understand him and one he has never shown a romantic interest in. oh lets' not forget how thrilled the very idea of romantic prospects makes him in general.

and lol @ clan revival = points for SS
because sasuke's made that very clear it's about repopulating and not about his clan's pride and honor.

i can just see it now. sasuke's idea of a happy life. after getting his revenge on his revenge...he'll settle down with a nice...er....sakura because she's desperately in love and devoted to him and he...well he doesn't hate her! and he's secretly longed for a life of peace with her and the many children that are sure to come. numbers efficient enough to repopulate a clan mind you would be preferable. can't really be that much of a clan with two or three...

you seem just as privy to what would make sasuke happy as sakura was.

maybe you really _do_ want sasuke to be 'rewarded' for his stupidly noble sacrifice after all


----------



## Kage (Apr 2, 2009)

> As for Sakura, she feels incomplete without sasuke by her side. As long as it's Sasuke that she is in love with, she won't be happy with anyone else besides him..


sakura can only ever be truly happy and complete with her dark prince sasuke. gotcha. i can't believe you're not trolling



> No, it was quite intentional. I find it funny that people view this as a negative thing, almost as funny as blaming sasuke for her immaturity & inability to concentrate on training.


of course change for the better isn't a negative thing but one would think it would have been nice if she could have shown such a resolve and follow through with it while he was around. doesn't say positive things about sasuke's influence on her progression or lack there of up until that point. 

i think it's funny that people think sasuke (however unintentional) didn't cause her to act immature or distract her at all. let's ignore how she treated naruto and Ino (and everyone else) because of him and let's also ignore the training she never did because she spent so much time fusing over him. ha. ha.




> lol. So, I guess this means I should tell my boyfriend, my friends, my laptop, TV, music, novels, mangas, paints...etc all to leave canada for atleast 3 yrs because I can't become a competent kunoichi...I mean a competent student if they insist on distracting me by just simply being around me.  Or are you saying that sasuke intentionally meant to distract sakura & manipulated her into skipping training so she could have fun with him?


see above post. it's not sasuke's..i mean their job to police you but doesn't change the fact the you are indeed distracted by those things and you should probably get your head out of your ass and realize what should take priority. helps when the distracting things aren't exactly encouraging your behavior when they tell you you're annoying and to stay out of their business and to train...study more.   




> You ignore the very important fact that she becomes strong _especially for him, in order to bring him back_ to her side. This is a good thing for sasusaku, it only goes to show how far she is willing to go to see him safe & sound beside him


.  

guess she was jerking naruto around about that together stuff then. 

especially for him? to bring him back to her side? sounds like your mixing up characters here. you're obviously confusing sakura for the boy in orange

see what i did there? i provided panels with clear context of how said boy becomes strong especially for him, to be by his side, and how far he is willing to go.

i didn't have you just, ya know, take my word for it.



> Of course it is about wanting him home & safe, but how does this disprove her love for him ( which is an established fact* smiles sweetly*)? It is you who needs to prove that she isn't still in love with him because there is nothing that says that she isn't, while everything supports the fact that the intensity of her love for him hasn't faded a tad bit.



you telling me that _ everything supports the intensity of her love hasn't faded_ doesn't count as proof just so you know. provide not exaggerated panel proof plz. but telling me she wants him home mostly because she's in love with him is easy to disprove considering whenever she thinks about it she thinks of how she wants to keep him _and_ naruto safe.

i'm i not saying that she _couldn't_ still be in love with him only that it's possible for her to have moved on based on what's been happening in the manga with her thus far.



> You want her to dwell on something that brings back painful memories for her. This is sakura we're talking about. She tends to push her vulnerabilities to the back of her mind & act tough in front of her friends. She mentions that she is different from the old sakura, that from now on she was not going to cry about spilt milk & instead was going to concentrate on bringing sasuke back. It is as clear as black & white, why she isn't going to bring up her love for sasuke until the situation calls for it.



no it's not cause it's not an _established_ fact! she has to outright say so or else...right? 



> Ahh, but this is just you making assumptions. When have any of us said that naruto doesn't have a crush on sakura?



LAWL.



> Naruto is more of a protagonist than Sakura is & therefore there  is more focus on him. As of now, we don't know if sakura has thought about him as much or not because she hasn't been focused on as much as naruto. Let's wait until her turn comes before we make any hasty judgements alright?



don't you think it's a bit hasty to assume she'll never get over him and love anybody else before we even get to her turn? sorry to say but you jumped on the 'hasty judgments' train almost for the entirety of your post.



> In any case the sasuke-thinking moments that she has been given focus on have been pivotal & intense enough for me. *shrug*


[/QUOTE]
for you yes. for me it scrapes the bottom of the pairing barrel.


> Actually naruto is to an extent, he just needs someone to persistently reach out to him, imo. ( I don't see how self-gratification fits in with anything I said in my prev post, so i'll leave it out)


because you were saying they should have ran into each others arms to wangst about sasuke in order for it to be a significant step for NS and i was saying that naruto (and sakura) are the type of people who share such pains with others purposely to make themselves feel better. at least that was what i was understanding from what you said.

as for the rest of that point i'm not sure what you were rambling about.



> Exactly, Its soooo funny that you conveniently use this as an excuse for her not mentioning her fading love sasuke to naruto while at the same time you expect her to renew her vows....uh sry, I meant discuss her love for sasuke in the midst of the not so important things happening around them.


oh look you caught that! maybe now you'll stop doing it too! 
oh wait you're the 'establish fact' one. sakura's still madly in love with sasuke cause nothing in the manga says she isn't even if her feelings seem rather ambiguous at the moment. you're just one of the ones that outright ignore that part all together. sorry 



saasha said:


> Sry, I didn't mean to sound like I was pitying them. I guess my frustration just spilled out into my sentence without me even realizing it. Didn't mean to offend. I don't normally let it happen.  I'm sure you understand what I mean, since you tend to do that a lot yourself


. 

i do. can't be helped sometimes.



> well, no one asked you to. I don't see how SS requires any straw grasping at all, imo.



if you believe that 

crescent moons = romantic intent
chapter cover text> the rest of the manga
feelings of love can grow but can _never_ change
sakura's sole motivator/reason for living/goal in life is to be sasuke's solution to clan revival

say 'grasping at straws!!!!!' 

there. happy now? and i know there's a bunch i omitted simply because this post is long enough and i can't believe i bothered to dignify it with a response at all.

now...


Hikui said:


> Oh then I'm sorry, I know you're not the only one but if my words were too harsh then my bad. It wasn't meant as a direct and hateful attack.
> 
> Peace?


sure. direct attacks in here on opposing fandoms are not uncommon so i was immediately on the defensive. 



> Agreed. I still think Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura whether they exist or not need to be addressed if NaruHina is happening. That is what should be done to make it clear but at this point.... I just don't know what Kishimoto is planning. I have my theories tho.


heh we have more in common then i initially thought.

Izzy epic posts as always


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## Kathutet (Apr 2, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You definitely live up to your name. This was an extremely fun to read mini-manifesto. 
I really hope to read more of you.


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## moonjump05 (Apr 2, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Like I said, it's not definitive and I don't think we'll get anything for a few more chapters at least.  However, I do think with the emphasis on Hinata she is the larger part of the Hinata/villager reaction.






WriterforHire said:


> The problem with development, of any kind, is that it's largely up to the viewer to determine whether or not that development is actually romantic in context or not. For example, prior to the recent events many Narusakuers believed that Hinata's feelings for Naruto were not meant to be viewed as romantic at all. Luckily, I can claim to be not among them, but, even so, it proves that point.



It's all up to interpretation for sure, but if you want me to change my mind you're going to have to bring up something concrete.



> Hinata can love Naruto all she wants, but if Kishi decides that her feelings will not be reciporacated or even not last over time, then that won't do her any good. To be honest, I'll take a strong, growing development, that can be interpreted as either platonic or romantic at the discretion to the reader any day.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's feelings seem to have persisted over the timeskip, throughout the series and possibly even before then.  It is something that has been with her character since her first appearance.

Kishi can decide that it'll be unrequited, but personally why bother at this point?  He's spent so much time developing a supporting character's romantic feelings and then gives her a dramatic confession scene only to be turned down?  He could have downplayed her feelings but instead they are _love_.  He could have dropped them altogether, but instead they persist.  He could have done so many other things, but he chose to develop her feelings to the point of love.  And this isn't really a manga 'proof', but rather a sign of my own writer/reader senses tingling.  It would be an unnecessarily elaborate red herring in a shounen manga especially when we are given no evidence of an established alternate romantic pairing that would warrant her to be rejected.

And while Naruto and Hinata's bond hasn't been given the same amount of screen time as others- they have a strong growing development as well, whether romantic or platonic.  







> The problem with such debates is that the pairings are designed to mirror particular people and particular relationships, and because of that they are very much like flavors of icecream - one can pick which one they like the best at their own discretion due to the particular chemistry or "taste" of that pairing. In NaruHina we have a shy, introvert girl who admires a guy yet can't quite bring herself to speak to him, and I suspect, correct me if I am wrong, that the main draw to this pairing is the building up of Hinata's character till the point where she has the strength to confession and "win over" Naruto's heart.



For me, I like NaruHina for a variety of reasons.



> In Narusaku, the draw, definitely on my end, is developing relationship between two friends, who share a common goal - a common link - and are detemined to grow stronger together to bring back someone they care for. In comparig the two bonds, I view the Narusaku bond (purely platonic) as infinitely stronger than the Naruhina bond (purely romantic).



I like Naruto and Sakura's friendship too.  They have an amazingly strong bond over bringing back Sasuke.



> Because this is a common misconception that many have, that since a relationship is romantic in content that means it'll be stronger than a platonic, friendly relationship. I do not believe this. Despite it all, despite her love for him, Hinata does not yet _know_ Naruto. How could she? You can't get to know someone by watching them or by knowing facts about them. Hinata knows that Naruto is a goof and that he's also very determined, courageous and never gives up...but are these facts about him that she's observed or things that have come out because she _knows_ him?



I'm sorry, but Hinata knows Naruto.  She made that clear in the chuunin exam.  She empathsizes with him and that in itself means that she sees something in him that she can relate to.  She understood many things about him then that the rest of his peers- Sakura included didn't.
Sakura has an advantage of circumstance- she is on the same team, she has the same goal of bringing back Sasuke.  
And isn't observing someone one method of knowing them?  How did Sakura get to know Naruto... partially by observing him.  She saw during the PaoL that Naruto wasn't getting in her way- how?  By seeing him promise to bring Sasuke back, as far as I could see there was no conscious effort of Naruto to make sure she knew that particular thing.  Hinata saw Naruto's determination many times.  She saw how he failed and continued to get back up and drew strength from Naruto's strength from no conscious effort on Naruto's part.  Hell, Naruto watched Hinata during her fight with Neji and came to understand her a little better, get to know her a little more.
Observing someone is just one way of getting to know someone.  Just like talking or listening.




> Perhaps this will be more clear: You ask if the development is romantic in content. I say: I don't know. And here's my question for you: Is open, stated, undeniable romantic development needed for a pairing to become canon?



No it's not.  However, I would expect more than ambiguous _at best_ situations, especially when up against undeniable romantic development even if one sided.
If Kishi wanted to make NaruSaku possible, what would he have to do?  Maybe make Sakura's rejections of Naruto's dates less clear?  Have her shown considering it?  Maybe make Naruto have some sort of reaction when she denies him?  Make Sakura think back on Sasuke unfavorably?Have Hinata witness some special moment between Naruto and Sakura?
He doesn't do any of these, and I've only seen evidence to the contrary in the manga so far.  





> What I meant to say is for SasuSaku to be _possible_ Sasuke will have to come back. Also, I did not mean that this foreshadowed event (Naruto and Sasuke's confrontation) is likely to occur in Naruto's bringing Sasuke back, but rather it's very likely, almost assured, that the two will meet again and Naruto will try to convince him to turn his back to revenge and return to his old way of life. It's a assurance of a climax, not the assurance of a pairing.



Maybe you misunderstood, Sasuke coming back doesn't mean that SasuSaku will become canon- only that it is one 'hurdle' that needs to be overcome that seems not really to be a hurdle at all.



> What Sasusaku needs to become canon is threefold. First, Naruto has to find Sasuke again and the two need to fight. (Which, is not entirely assured, even if very likely.



If Naruto and Sasuke didn't fight again then everything in the manga is a lie.



> Second, Naruto has to win and Sasuke must have a change of heart (not as likely, more on this later).



At this point I can't even imagine Naruto _failing to save his best friend_.  This has been his goal for the entirety of part 2. 
This just isn't the type of story to have Naruto's dream epically crash down like that.



> Thirdly, Sasuke has to develop romantic feelings for Sakura. (Least likely of them all)



Meh... I'm not a SasuSaku shipper.

Continued below


----------



## moonjump05 (Apr 2, 2009)

> I think its safe to say that the fight between Naruto and Sasuke will happen near the end of the manga, if not be the very climax of the manga itself. Likely the conflict will be over Sasuke (and Madara) wishing to attack and destroy Konaha and Naruto singlehandedly (perhaps with Sakura and a few others) trying to stop them. Tragic endings could include Sasuke winning and destroying Konaha, Naruto having to kill Sasuke to protect Konaha (as foreshadowed by Itachi) and Naruto winning (or ending at a draw) but Sasuke decides to leave anyway and not stay with Naruto and help rebuild and live in Konaha. Another ending could be Sasuke agreeing to stay behind but it was a ruse to later destroy Konaha or him being forced out due to animosity by other ninjas / villagers.
> 
> Basically, in order for Sasusaku to be possible everything must go perfectly right. Fate must be very kind indeed.



Speculation.



> A interesting parrellel!
> 
> And if your arguement was because of this moment Naruto and Hinata can become closer as friends, then I'll agree with you. However, the parrellel falls short in two main ways. One: That scene in the Wave Country Arc was not meant to be seen as romantic while this scene obviously was. Second: Naruto had a close bond (one of rivalry) with Sasuke even before this moment, while Naruto and Hinata did not have as close of a a bond.



No, my arguement was that Naruto can deepen his bond with Hinata in a very similar way to how it happened with Sasuke.
And Sasuke's sacrifice wasn't meant to be romantic- it was meant to show the depth of his feelings.  
*Spoiler*: __ 



And Hinata's was meant to showcase the depth of her feelings.



Naruto and Hinata didn't have as close of a bond but you'll be hard pressed to find one that does.  It surely doesn't mean that it didn't matter at all.  



> Yet even if it was a parellel that held up in all aspects, was it a parellel that Kishi wanted to make?



Considering so many of the same reaction shots were near identical and the situation as a whole was so similar I have a hard time imagining otherwise.  



> As I showed above, yes, I believe its entirely possible for Naruto to fail. After all, he failed in his last two attempts, did he not?



And Naruto keeps getting up again and trying again until he succeeds, too.



> In the end, almost anything is possible, even Naruhina (for me) and Narusaku (for you). But, there are levels to how _likely_ or how _unlikely_ such events are, which is the heart and soul of these debates.



Sure.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 2, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> No, my arguement was that Naruto can deepen his bond with Hinata in a very similar way to how it happened with Sasuke.
> And Sasuke's sacrifice wasn't meant to be romantic- it was meant to show the depth of his feelings.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Too bad Naruto and Sasuke actually had *mutual* grudges, empathy, understanding, admiration, care before that protection scene  ever notice that Hinata flashbacked herself stalking while Sasuke actually flashbacked not only things which affected him but involved heavy mutual interaction with Naruto !?

How would you know what Sasuke's gesture meant essentially? As far as SasuNaru fans know the only person Sasuke _exclusively_ will bend on his reason for existance [ie revenge] for is Naruto. Yeah, the gesture represents the depth of his feelings, which are far deeper than whatever NaruHina has done till 400. This is why the comparison fails. [Saying this to all NH'ers that use this logic.]

Expect whatever development you want, but don't compare SasuNaru to NaruHina just cos it's a protection scene that involves sacrifice towards Naruto who goes Kyuubi [when it was explicit WHAT he was transforming for!] unless you are going to say Sasuke has special feelings for Naruto  cos nitpicking isn't going to provide evidence for your pairing that _lacks_ the requisites to even bring up the Haku arc. I'll happily link you to the LAP I already made on this thread on why if you feel like debating more on it. Sakura's acknowledgment is far more essential than Hinata's but not even she gets the honor of butting into SasuNaru's _important person_ theory. Doing so you are admitting ZabuHaku not being only GAY, but like SasuNaru and thus blasphemous double standard.

It cannot hope for a similar development on the standards used.

I find it funny how you regard Writer's paragraph providing some plot theories just to imply SasuSaku needing major development in order to occur "speculation". Maybe cos, shipping NaruHina, you think it will pop out of no where cos Hinata just confessed with major drama. Sasuke, who so far won't even let Naruto take him back, is just gonna swing to Sakura with a magic twist? Shippuden Sasuke?? Please. He'll need major psychotherapy from Naruto before even being emotionally available in that sense. It's called being realistic, not speculation. Yeah you can assume Sasuke can be saved, but so far Naruto continues to struggle. Well either way apparently you don't ship SasuSaku but you sure do repeat some of its nonsense.



kageneko said:


> if you believe that
> 
> crescent moons = romantic intent
> chapter cover text> the rest of the manga
> ...



That was beautiful  I agree.


----------



## moonjump05 (Apr 2, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Too bad Naruto and Sasuke actually had *mutual* grudges, empathy, understanding, admiration, care before that protection scene  ever notice that Hinata flashbacked herself stalking while Sasuke actually flashbacked not only things which affected him but involved heavy mutual interaction with Naruto !?



Too bad Naruto watched Hinata during her fight with Neji and cheered her on because he related to her, and that conversation they had before he fought Neji where she pointed out one of Naruto's admirable qualities.
Mutual empathy, understanding, admiration and care WTF.  Admittedly no grudges...



> How would you know what Sasuke's gesture meant essentially? As far as SasuNaru fans know the only person Sasuke _exclusively_ will bend on his reason for existance [ie revenge] for is Naruto. Yeah, the gesture represents the depth of his feelings, which are far deeper than whatever NaruHina has done till 400. This is why the comparison fails. Saying this to all NH'ers that use this logic.



And you are the greater measure of what Sasuke's gesture meant?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Quite frankly both gestures show the depths of both of their feelings.  As far as NaruHina fans know the only person Hinata _exclusively _will bend her dreams and life for is _Naruto_.  I fail to see the difference in depth of their respective sacrifices.






> Expect whatever development you want, but don't compare SasuNaru to NaruHina just cos it's a protection scene that involves sacrifice towards Naruto who goes Kyuubi [when it was explicit WHAT he was transforming for!] unless you are going to say Sasuke has special feelings for Naruto



Lol, I have no problem saying that Naruto is important to Sasuke.  It's clear from his actions.  Just like Naruto is important to Hinata, it's clear from her actions.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I see no reason not to compare the two _very similar events_ just because Hinata said 'I love you'.  That's ridiculous.  If you want to read romantic motives into Sasuke's action go ahead.  For me, both scenes highlight just how important Naruto is to each of them.  Do they both have to be for only platonic  or romantic reasons?  No.  Sasuke and Hinata both have different reasons for doing similar actions.







> cos nitpicking isn't going to provide evidence for your pairing that _lacks_ the requisites to even bring up the Haku arc.



  Elitism much?  I merely pointed out the very similar panels, reactions, and situation between the two.  If _you _don't think it's appropriate take it up with Kishi, he's the one who made them so similar.




> I'll happily link you to the LAP I already made on this thread on why if you feel like debating more on it.



I could use some light reading.



> Sakura's acknowledgment is far more essential than Hinata's but not even she gets the honor of butting into SasuNaru's _important person_ theory. Doing so you are admitting ZabuHaku not being only GAY, but like SasuNaru and thus blasphemous double standard.




*Spoiler*: _huh?_ 




Since when was I _attacking _Naruto and Sasuke's bond?  I really have no idea why you are getting so defensive when I merely point out similarities between two events that have taken place.  Hinata loving Naruto doesn't make Naruto and Sasuke's bond go away or diminish.

*Spoiler*: _OT_ 



Why are you throwing around a 'gay' argument?  I could honestly care less if the characters are gay for each other or not.  If that's where I though the characters were heading, why would I have a problem with it?  If that's what the character wanted why should I say no? 





 




> It cannot hope for a similar development on the standards used.



Okay...



> I find it funny how you regard Writer's paragraph about SasuSaku needing major development in order to occur "speculation". Maybe cos, shipping NaruHina, you think it will pop out of no where cos Hinata just confessed with major drama. Sasuke, who so far won't even let Naruto take him back, is just gonna swing to Sakura with a magic twist? Shippuden Sasuke?? Please. He'll need major psychotherapy from Naruto before even being emotionally available in that sense. It's called being realistic, not speculation. Yeah you can assume Sasuke can be saved, but so far Naruto continues to struggle.



Thanks for assuming whatever you like and using it to make an argument.

I didn't feel the need to reply to someone's speculation on what needed to take place- especially when I don't ship SasuSaku anyway.

As for NaruHina:
*Spoiler*: __ 



The 'major drama' refers to the statement I made regarding why, based not on manga panels but my own experiences and expectations as a writer/reader, the confession was included.  Please, take with a grain of salt and don't look much further than that.






> Well either way apparently you don't ship SasuSaku but you sure do repeat some of its nonsense.



I may not ship it, but I can certainly see the characters motives, actions, and feelings.  And what you call nonsense makes a lot of sense to others.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 2, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Too bad Naruto watched Hinata during her fight with Neji and cheered her on because he related to her, and that conversation they had before he fought Neji where she pointed out one of Naruto's admirable qualities.
> Mutual empathy, understanding, admiration and care WTF.  Admittedly no grudges...



Naruto didn't take her in further consideration from there. It's what you call ONE-SIDED romance and mere friendship/comradeship. Naruto has had those moments with lots of people y'know, even lolwho's like Inari. Doesn't put them on his significant relationship list. Even Konohamaru is closer to Naruto.



> And you are the greater measure of what Sasuke's gesture meant?



According to manga evidence, not mere pairing wishes .



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Quite frankly both gestures show the depths of both of their feelings.  As far as NaruHina fans know the only person Hinata _exclusively _will bend her dreams and life for is _Naruto_.  I fail to see the difference in depth of their respective sacrifices.



Hinata didn't have the same position as Sasuke, nor the mutual development...thus the sucky comparison.



> Lol, I have no problem saying that Naruto is important to Sasuke.  It's clear from his actions.  Just like Naruto is important to Hinata, it's clear from her actions.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



This has nothing to do with what you are not saying about SasuNaru. It's about what is implied with such logic.

I see every reason NOT to compare the two, but you can read that in my LAP if you want 



> Elitism much?  I merely pointed out the very similar panels, reactions, and situation between the two.  If _you _don't think it's appropriate take it up with Kishi, he's the one who made them so similar.



 And I'm telling you they aren't that similar when it comes to context. I even heard Gabzilla and Miss P saying such relationships couldn't be compared when daring to bring up how Naruto confessed an analogous speech to Sasuke in the VotE [in his mind] just without saying I love you. Even Hinata when she fought Neji wasn't sure why she "had watched" Naruto. The admiration complex of Hinata and Naruto can be compared imo, but Hinata sacrificing herself for Naruto in comparison to Sasuke's as a development device cannot. Cos first, Sasuke gave up something that wasn't just his life, and he didn't die under undeveloped romantic bias [so you really guessed wrong that I was making romantic implications, SasuNaru doesn't enter the petty romance section ]



> I could use some light reading.



Could clear some things up.
SM Naruto



> *Spoiler*: _huh?_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wrote in the post that this was to ALL the general Wave Arc argument for a reason. I don't counter things piece by piece. Which is why I may sound accusing but essentially it's just fully countering something I see consistantly throughout the thread, but not aimed personally [when I do that it's pretty clear, like when I mentioned your pro-SasuSaku]. Hope eventually you'll get what I mean if you are paralleling the scenes like you say you are. You are assuming it will develop in a similar sequence and I simply disagree in using that comparison 
A love confession doesn't equate a close bond with someone on a mutual level.

Especially two who spent so little time together. I'm serious. 



> Thanks for assuming whatever you like and using it to make an argument.



I wasn't assuming anything cos I read what she wrote too.



> I didn't feel the need to reply to someone's speculation on what needed to take place- especially when I don't ship SasuSaku anyway.



Why obliterate with nothing 



> As for NaruHina:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





I wasn't referring to any of that, just your arguments for SasuSaku I've read here. Was too lazy to quote and think they go hand and hand anyway.


----------



## moonjump05 (Apr 2, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Naruto didn't take her in further consideration from there. It's what you call ONE-SIDED romance and mere friendship/comradeship. Naruto has had those moments with lots of people y'know, even lolwho's like Inari. Doesn't put them on his significant relationship list. Even Konohamaru is closer to Naruto.



I never said it went any further.  I was pointing out the hole in your argument that Naruto and Hinata's bond lacked those things.





> According to manga evidence, not mere pairing wishes .



Sure...





> Hinata didn't have the same position as Sasuke, nor the mutual development...thus the sucky comparison.



And again Naruto and Hinata have had mutual development and both Hinata and Sasuke are willing to die for Naruto.  If you want to call it sucky go ahead- it's only your personal opinion.







> This has nothing to do with what you are not saying about SasuNaru. It's about what is implied with such logic.
> 
> I see every reason NOT to compare the two, but you can read that in my LAP if you want




*Spoiler*: __ 



And what exactly is implied?  If I didn't make myself clear please let me know-  both scenes highlight how important Naruto is to Sasuke and Hinata respectively.  What exactly am I _not _saying about Naruto and Sasuke's bond?  That Naruto isn't important to him?

Can I only compare the two if both Hinata and Sasuke have romantic feelings for Naruto?  











> And I'm telling you they aren't that similar when it comes to context. I even heard Gabzilla and Miss P saying such relationships couldn't be compared when daring to bring up how Naruto confessed an analogous speech to Sasuke in the VotE [in his mind] just without saying I love you. Even Hinata when she fought Neji wasn't sure why she "had watched" Naruto. The admiration complex of Hinata and Naruto can be compared imo, but Hinata sacrificing herself for Naruto in comparison to Sasuke's as a development device cannot. Cos first, Sasuke gave up something that wasn't just his life, and he didn't die under undeveloped romantic bias [so you really guessed wrong that I was making romantic implications, SasuNaru doesn't enter the petty romance section ]


 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Well gab and miss p are entitled to their own opinions, but saying that _nothing _can be compared in the _ultimate Naruto Sasuke_ bond is ridiculous.  

I'm comparing manga panels, reactions, and a situation that is very similar to a previous one.  How two very similar events have been depicted in the same way.  

I am _not comparing_ how much Naruto feels for Sasuke to how much he feels for Hinata.  Because it seems superfluous to compare and contrast the deep bonds like that.  _They are all important_.

I'm amazed you can downplay Hinata's sacrifice like that just because it has romantic motives.  The romantic motives don't make her risking her life and her dream any less.  











> I wrote in the post that this was to ALL the general Wave Arc argument for a reason. I don't counter things piece by piece. Which is why I may sound accusing but essentially it's just fully countering something I see consistantly throughout the thread, but not aimed personally [when I do that it's pretty clear, like when I mentioned your pro-SasuSaku]. Hope eventually you'll get what I mean if you are paralleling the scenes like you say you are. You are assuming it will develop in a similar sequence and I simply disagree in using that comparison



Well, we can agree to disagree then.





> A love confession doesn't equate a close bond with someone on a mutual level.
> 
> Especially two who spent so little time together. I'm serious.



I don't remember saying otherwise.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 2, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> I never said it went any further.  I was pointing out the hole in your argument that Naruto and Hinata's bond lacked those things.



And I never assumed it lacked interaction. But it still lacks the same level of understanding. Hasn't even Pein said that you can't understand someone without having experienced their same pain? Well Hinata and Naruto don't even have the development for that like NaruSaku. This is what I mean. Naruto can empathize _generally_ with people but that doesn't mean he always emotionally catches onto them or has the need to.



> Sure...



Sasuke being Naruto's most important person is canon; there is consistant evidence and direct quotes. The fact it's not romantic is a sword with a double edge if you want to use it as a comparison 



> And again Naruto and Hinata have had mutual development and both Hinata and Sasuke are willing to die for Naruto.  If you want to call it sucky go ahead- it's only your personal opinion.



This is a debate thread and that wasn't the point. Personally I found Hinata's dying for true love bullshit and think she died for an ideal based on her empathy with Naruto but that doesn't mean she can't die cos she cares. The issue is SIGNIFICANCE. If some classmate died for your sake would it be like your close friend dying?
No.
And I simply think the allegations she made weren't very anchored or set up thus not something which will necessarily stimulate Naruto in a romantic manner [imo]. You can't force yourself to love someone.


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I already said I was countering a bigger arguement than what you mentioned in your post.
If you are going to compare those for the sake of showing the depth of her feelings in that sense, I find it pointless. Cos Naruto, according to the context, most probably went Kyuubi for multiple reasons, and there are plenty of other persons who have risked their life to defend Naruto. So if one uses the Haku scene, which already implies a hell of a lot, it's contradictory since 1. Sasuke didn't die on romantic pretensions 2. Naruto went Kyuubi and was going to kill Haku clearly to exclusively AVENGE Sasuke and that was it 3. Sasuke's body moved automatically and he was already in the battle, thus no selfish behavior was entailed etc.

Yeah, Hinata decided to die protecting someone she considered precious. That does not mean it's usefully comparable to that scene unless you are stating the former obvious.



> Well gab and miss p are entitled to their own opinions, but saying that _nothing _can be compared in the _ultimate Naruto Sasuke_ bond is ridiculous.



Only *male/male* and maybe Saku-->Sasu have been compared to Sasuke/Naruto IN THE MANGA. See what I did there? I don't need to pull parallels out of my ass, cos I already have them in the manga. Here's the list of what SasuNaru has been compared to: Sai/unrelated brother [according to Sai], Orochimaru/Kimimaro [according to Gaara], Haku/Zabuza [in an indirect way], Orochimaru/Jiraiya [difficult comparison according to Kakashi]. As for the thing meant about Gabz/MissP's opinions it's not always ridiculous when it comes to certain things: cos NaruHina can't be compared with the uncomparable till now. It's mainly supposed to be confronting itself with "romantic themed" pairings like NaruSaku, not SasuNaru, unless you seriously intend to treat SasuNaru as romantic material. And so far NH is not even as near as complex as NaruSaku. Do you see the double standard?? 



> I'm comparing manga panels, reactions, and a situation that is very similar to a previous one.  How two very similar events have been depicted in the same way.



I disagree since the circumstances, insinuations, and emotional positions were different.



> I am _not comparing_ how much Naruto feels for Sasuke to how much he feels for Hinata.  Because it seems superfluous to compare and contrast the deep bonds like that.  _They are all important_.



Yeah but it gets messy when the _important person_ stuff comes up. Cos not even Sakura can compete with that. I'm talking about for Naruto, not for Hinata [even if I find her "true love" allegations quite weak].



> I'm amazed you can downplay Hinata's sacrifice like that just because it has romantic motives.  The romantic motives don't make her risking her life and her dream any less.



You misunderstand. Pairing fans are saying it's for true love and what not. That can't be when you have no significant relationship with that other person! She can die for an ideal and empathy but not for _true_ love. I don't believe she understands him all that much except when it's in relation to _herself_ [though she sure was more promising than Sakura at times]. A love confession will not make up for what _lacks_. It needs development.



> Well, we can agree to disagree then.



We can.



> I don't remember saying otherwise.



Then don't insist on Hinata and Naruto's amazing mutual development.


----------



## WriterforHire (Apr 2, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> If their bond broke, then why is Sakura going to such extremes to bring him back?  If she cut herself off from him, she wouldn't still be trying to protect him.



Please excuse me: I'm about to use an example, and one that I am not sure will actually make sense in the end, so bare with me. 

    In _A Rose For Emily,_ a eighteenth century short story, we see a young woman who was deeply in love with this young man, which is rather typical for most stories. However, that man himself wished to leave, because he decided he wasn't "the marrying sort". But, Emily arranged things so this would not be possible, so, night after night; they slept by each other's sides, in the same bed; a very happy ending. 

That is, of course, if her young lover wasn't dead and the body in the bed wasn't a corpse. 

   But, despite this, Emily believed that she had a relationship with a man who was no longer among the living, no longer there to reciprocate her feelings and help develop their relationship. Yet every day she slept by his side, perhaps even spoke to his corpse, and filled the gap where he once was with the man's physical (purely physical) presence. Yet, undeniably, their bond was severed, broken, but Emily deceived herself into thinking that something was still there. 

   In the same way, I think Sakura and Naruto are both deceiving themselves into thinking that their bond with Sasuke remains, and, perhaps, deep down it does. But that does not matter. What matters is that Sasuke decided that those bonds were worthless compared to his mission to gain power so that he can have his revenge, and while both Naruto and Sakura are attempting to restore that bond, to Sasuke they are both dead to him. 

  If you do not believe this, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Itachi's death 


 nearly proves it. For it shows that Itachi was the single most important person to Sasuke at that point of time, which, prior to that moment, had been a space reserved for Naruto. Sasuke's replacement brother was kicked out for the real deal. 





moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I think we are in the middle of a fairly significant moment of their relationship.



Without a doubt. 

    This latest event has great promise, both in a romantic light and a platonic light. But that is just what it is: promise. There was promise in multiple different scenarios, ways that Kishi could have subtly built up their relationship to the point where the readers really were rooting for Hinata. But Kishi didn't take those opportunities. I really wish, _really, really _ wish, that Kishi had developed this pairing more. A lot more. Then I might believe that such a scene we so recently saw could have happened in real life. Personally, even with the "manga laws of anime" or whatever you call them, I can't see this happening.  



moonjump05 said:


> Once Sasuke left sure.  They became the teammates that they should have been since part 1.



Undoubtedly Sasuke was the catalyst that caused Naruto and Sakura to grow closer together. But, in the end, does it matter how they got where they are? The fact of the matter is that the two of them are very close, two peas in a pod (in more ways then one). Naruto and Hinata are not that close. And Sasuke out rightly decided that his bond with Sakura and Naruto was actually _weakening_ him, holding him back. 





moonjump05 said:


> So Naruto taking it like a doormat is a good thing?



   It's a very, very good thing, especially if you're going to treat it so seriously. Because the way that Sakura treats him is a two - edged sword. If your going to say that the beatings should be considered serious moments that actually portray a significant flaw in Sakura's character, then the question then arrives, why does Naruto put up with her? Sasuke will not work. It really won't. Nor the fact they are on the same team. For if he had a problem couldn't he simply tell her to stop? Or avoid her? Or heck just show a bit of anger at her! The way he acts around her, the fact that he seems content with the way she treats him, the fact that he seems to want to spend every available amount of spare time around her indicates one thing and one thing alone: 

That despite the way she treats him, Naruto _still_ likes Sakura. 

   That's one heck of a devotion, which would put serious doubt on the claim that Naruto only feels platonic feelings for Sakura with that alone, and doubly so since it?s establish fact that he has a crush on her. If anything, these interactions can be used to testify to the strength of Naruto's feelings, for if _I _ was being put under such abuse, there would be no way I'd put up with it, even if it was from a girl I positively worshiped. (Not that such a girl exists....) 





moonjump05 said:


> Well I would hope such negative things appear less, since you know they are becoming friends.  And they do have an amazingly close bondover their mutual desire to bring back Sasuke, but I still don't see any romantic arguments in your post. [/SPOILER]
> 
> Only that such an amazingly close bond can easily dwarf Hinata's openly romantic one.
> 
> ...


----------



## WriterforHire (Apr 2, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey. No need for sarcasm. I fully intend to explain myself. At length. With a ramble. 

   I'm not claiming that Hinata's feelings developed overnight. Indeed, I think the developing of those feelings is a great testimony to the strength of her character, for, unlike all the other kunochi women, she alone valued actual substantial traits within another ninja and saw the good in a person that many underestimated / overlooked. However, despite this, while Hinata may have seen more of Naruto at that time than any of the other kunochis, she still didn't know him. For to say that one can come to truly love someone only by watching what that person does, even over a great extent of time, would be the equivalent of me saying that I fell in love with Miley Cyrus because I read the tabloids and watched every movie and video I found that she was in. It takes more than mere observation for love to form. 

   So originally Hinata's feelings for Naruto were greater than Sakura's for Naruto...but then again, at the beginning, Sakura had not feelings for Naruto. She hated him; pure and simple. What makes it more valueable _now_ is that Sakura came to know Naruto while Hinata, after seeing a great glimpse of the strength of Naruto's character, left it at that, and then held that glimpse up as a idol, saying "This is who Naruto-kun is! I must be like him!"

  I think this is a reason why Sakura stayed behind while Naruto was fighting while Hinata jumped in to help. It's not because Sakura would not sacrifice her life for Naruto's or that she did not want to help him. It's because she knew him enough to know that he could and would defeat Pein. Hinata jumped in because she believed he needed her help, even if that help meant her life being spent in the process.  





moonjump05 said:


> A Sakura who doesn't want him that way?  A Sakura he himself doesn't seem to want all that much?  Not to mention Sakura doesn't owe Naruto anything for whatever he does on his own.



I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here: the words are all jumbled. But, if I have you right, this is essencially what you're saying. Why should Narusaku happen since Sakura doesn't want him that way, and he (Naruto) doesn't seem to want it all that much and not to mention that Sakura doesn't owe Naruto anything for whatever he does on his own. 

   If this is correct, and excuse me if it is not, then I want to address the last part first, since the other two are by far stronger points and will take a bit of work to refute them. To begin with: Who said that Sakrua was indebted to Naruto at all? Surely that wasn't anything I had hinted at, and even if I could imagine how such a thing could be worked out, debts and repaying debts is not a theme seen in Naruto whatsoever, so it would merely be a opinion. And if it's an opinion, why bother with it unless the debater is attempting to use it as a fact? 

As for your other two questions: Who says that Naruto doesn't take his feelings seriously? You? Kishi? Everyone in the manga? His own actions? 

Even if this was the case: Naruto can still care for her deeply. 

   The fact of the matter is, we don't see the daily thoughts of Naruto. He might very well be thinking of Sakura more often then we see in the actual manga. In fact, I can guarantee it. Also, just because you act childish and dismiss your own feelings doesn't mean they are not there. Even if everyone else dismiss your feelings also, and say that your just fooling around, you can know, deep down, that those feelings are real, but so long as you don't act on them in a serious or mature manner, most won't see it. 

   As for Sakura not feeling that way for Naruto; I have a serious question for you. Can you name for me one relationship in the manga, save the Narusasu one, that is stronger than the Narusaku bond? While we might be able to say that since Shikamaru and Choji were childhood friends and are on the same team that they should be very close, but we see both of them only a handful of times, so their relationship is nowhere near as developed as Naruto's and Sakura's. Such is the case for all the other relationships also. The interworking of Team 7 has been the highlight of this manga for many years. 

  When it comes down to the nitty gritty, the main problem I have with Naruhina is the fact was not interested in Hinata originally. While this may not seem to be a lot, it really is. That?s because Naruto is seen as an agent of change. He makes people change. But Naruto himself never does. That's why he is so reliable, so trustworthy. He's like a rock. People should change. People do change. But Naruto has the unique ability to win people over to his side, to his way of thinking, and to make strong, long lasting bonds. So, while Sakura may not like him romantically now, I feel confident that such a thing could change, for we have seen, time and time again, that Naruto changes people just by being himself. If he were to change now and develop feelings for Hinata, that would be an anomaly in the course of the manga. Someone would be changing _him_. 

Besides, what better word could sum up Naruto then determined? Stubborn, perhaps?  

That's about it. Feel free to tear it apart while I work on your first piece.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 2, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> As for your other two questions: Who says that Naruto doesn't take his feelings seriously? You? Kishi? Everyone in the manga? His own actions?
> 
> Even if this was the case: Naruto can still care for her deeply.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, we don't see the daily thoughts of Naruto. He might very well be thinking of Sakura more often then we see in the actual manga. In fact, I can guarantee it. Also, just because you act childish and dismiss your own feelings doesn't mean they are not there. Even if everyone else dismiss your feelings also, and say that your just fooling around, you can know, deep down, that those feelings are real, but so long as you don't act on them in a serious or mature manner, most won't see it.


Sakura might very well be thinking of Sasuke more often than we see in the actual manga.In fact,i can guarantee it! 



> As for Sakura not feeling that way for Naruto; I have a serious question for you. Can you name for me one relationship in the manga, save the Narusasu one, that is stronger than the Narusaku bond? While we might be able to say that since Shikamaru and Choji were childhood friends and are on the same team that they should be very close, but we see both of them only a handful of times, so their relationship is nowhere near as developed as Naruto's and Sakura's. Such is the case for all the other relationships also. The interworking of Team 7 has been the highlight of this manga for many years.


There are many other bonds that are stronger than narusaku in the NARUTO MANGA such as itasasu or zabuhaku inosaku narugaara etc


----------



## First Tsurugi (Apr 2, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> Sakura might very well be thinking of Sasuke more often than we see in the actual manga.In fact,i can guarantee it!



But you can't prove that.
What you are suggesting is purely speculation.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 2, 2009)

First Tsurugi said:


> But you can't prove that.
> What you are suggesting is purely speculation.


do i have to use  for you to understand that it was sarcasm?
EXPLANATION
WriterforHire can guarantee that naruto thinks of sakura off panel...i can do teh same think for my pairing to seem believableThat's what i wanted to point out!








still


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 2, 2009)

You have a point cuteyume, but you are forgetting something...
















He still asks dates.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 2, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> He still asks dates.


sakura still rejects him!







very very very


----------



## kubik (Apr 2, 2009)

> He still asks dates.


inb4 hes not serious. 

cuteyume its gonna be kinda hard to prove that sakura suki sasuke but it seems that her every interaction with sasuke proves your point...
not that its your job to prove it anyway


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 2, 2009)

^Speculation. There is suggested no where that he isn't serious about dates. Only NaruSasu makes it look like that.

@cuteyume- Sasuke still rejects Sakura.

More than VERY.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 2, 2009)

sakura still wants sasuke back and i don't see her moving on from sasuke and fall in love with his best friend.... rival... brother.... soulmate.... whatsoever....










not very  anymore 
but


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 2, 2009)

Bah I'm not going to defend NaruSaku's petty dating issues 

His feelings for Sakura are serious - whatever nature they are.


----------



## kubik (Apr 2, 2009)

> His feelings for Sakura are serious - whatever nature they are.





> ^Speculation. There is suggested no where that he isn't serious about dates. Only NaruSasu makes it look like that.



I can point you to chapter that suggest that. 

hell i'll do it right now
Link removed "Saskekuuun..."
Link removed "Yeah I was JUST thinking about dating you."

oh my I just remembered how much respect Sakura has for Naruto


----------



## Griever (Apr 2, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> sakura still rejects him!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sakura does not reject Naruto when he asks her on dates.

Naruto asking Sakura on Dates in Part 2.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Remember after the Kakashi bell test in Part 2 of the manga? Naruto asked her on a date and Sakura said sure.
i think there is also a time Naruto asked Sakura on a date when sai was there but i can't remember the outcome, I'll have to go read that chapter again.




Sasuke and Sakura's relationship in part 2.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura does want Sasuke to come back to the village but there has been no sign of romantic feelings on eather Sasuke or Sakura's part, i'm not saying there is no chance of it, but we don't have enough to say if Sakura still likes Sasuke or not.


----------



## Erendhyl (Apr 2, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> In the same way, I think Sakura and Naruto are both deceiving themselves into thinking that their bond with Sasuke remains, and, perhaps, deep down it does. But that does not matter. What matters is that Sasuke decided that those bonds were worthless compared to his mission to gain power so that he can have his revenge, and while both Naruto and Sakura are attempting to restore that bond, to Sasuke they are both dead to him.
> 
> If you do not believe this,
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



And yet right before Sasuke attacks Killer Bee with his Amaterasu, he pictures Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi.

manga page

If his old team really meant as little to him as he said, he wouldn't have pictured them at a time where he was picturing his new teammates demonstrating their willingness to sacrifice themselves for his sake. He doesn't even flashback to any actions of Team Seven done for his sake; he just pictures them.

As for Itachi, I don't disagree that he is definitely the most important person to Sasuke right now. (Sasuke gaining the Mangekyo with his death proved that enough.) However, I still don't think that this says that Sasuke's old team no longer holds a place in his heart. Sasuke was told by Madara that Itachi spared his life when he killed all others, and that Itachi threatened the elders and chose to die at Sasuke's feet in order to keep his little brother safe. Hearing that a person would go that far for you is _going_ to make them important to you, but that doesn't mean that your previous bonds become meaningless.






> Undoubtedly Sasuke was the catalyst that caused Naruto and Sakura to grow closer together. But, in the end, does it matter how they got where they are? The fact of the matter is that the two of them are very close, two peas in a pod (in more ways then one). Naruto and Hinata are not that close. *And Sasuke out rightly decided that his bond with Sakura and Naruto was actually weakening him, holding him back.*



My main issue with the bolded part. Sasuke decided that his bonds were weakening him. And yet the entire point of this manga seems to be to prove that you are at your strongest when protecting those precious to you. Naruto learned this on his first real mission in the Land of Waves. Later, he fought Gaara in a battle that was all about proving that Naruto, the boy fighting to protect his precious people, was stronger than Gaara, the boy fighting for his hatred. Naruto has shown people before that protecting others makes you stronger, and Sasuke himself indirectly demonstrated this when he protected Naruto. This is my opinion, but I _really_ don't think that Naruto will succeed in showing this to a guy bent on murdering the two people dearest to Naruto, and yet fail to show it to Sasuke, his most precious person and the second most important character in the series.



> It's a very, very good thing, especially if you're going to treat it so seriously. Because the way that Sakura treats him is a two - edged sword. If your going to say that the beatings should be considered serious moments that actually portray a significant flaw in Sakura's character, then the question then arrives, why does Naruto put up with her? Sasuke will not work. It really won't. Nor the fact they are on the same team. For if he had a problem couldn't he simply tell her to stop? Or avoid her? Or heck just show a bit of anger at her! The way he acts around her, the fact that he seems content with the way she treats him, the fact that he seems to want to spend every available amount of spare time around her indicates one thing and one thing alone:
> 
> That despite the way she treats him, Naruto _still_ likes Sakura.
> 
> That's one heck of a devotion, which would put serious doubt on the claim that Naruto only feels platonic feelings for Sakura with that alone, and doubly so since it?s establish fact that he has a crush on her. If anything, these interactions can be used to testify to the strength of Naruto's feelings, for if _I _ was being put under such abuse, there would be no way I'd put up with it, even if it was from a girl I positively worshiped. (Not that such a girl exists....)



What I think Sakura's hitting represents is an inability for her to work in a relationship between her and Naruto. She hits him for being perverted, which I admit, I would too. But being perverted is a part of what makes Naruto Naruto. His first jutsu invented was Sexy no Jutsu for crying out loud! He hasn't been shown to grow out of this as he ages; in fact, judging by his interaction with Konohamaru immediately following his return to the village, it intensified. Naruto is not going to grow out of being perverted anytime soon, and yet Sakura tries to get him to stop with her hitting.

Additionally, her hitting has not been shown to be tremendously effective. He stops whatever immediate action offended her, yes, but shows no aversion to similar actions later, such as during chapter 347 when he's still interested in Konohamaru's technique (while Sakura is present). What was accomplished in the long run by Sakura's action? She'd only have to hit him again when he next performs one of these jutsu, since he hasn't been shown to be cured of his love of them.



> Only that such an amazingly close bond can easily dwarf Hinata's openly romantic one. *(example cut due to length)*
> 
> I think the situation mirrors enough to say that if I did to my crush exactly what Hinata did for Naruto, that the bond these two have is so strong that it'll forever but a gap between the two of us, even if, for some reason, she decides to take me seriously and we start to date. In the same way, I believe that Naruto's relationship with Sakura is so strong that even if Naruto decides to give Hinata a chance Sakura will forever be at a forefront of his mind, unless he comes to value Hinata so much that she replaces Sakura, which takes a lot of time. A girlfriend must take priority of a friend who is a girl.



And a girlfriend must take priority over a friend who is a guy.

Naruto can grow to care for Sakura on a level that is equal to Sasuke. Easily. But, as of right now in the manga, Sasuke still is more important to him than Sakura is. Any romantic pairing with Naruto must first become equal to his bond with Sasuke. His bond with Sakura is, at the moment, the closest to doing this, but
*Spoiler*: __ 



based on the last couple of chapters, I predict some Naruto-Hinata development soon. (Not necessarily develop of the romantic sort, but a development of their bond certainly.)




continued in part 2


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## Erendhyl (Apr 2, 2009)

> This would have been different had Hinata been shown, in the beginning of Part 2, to have grown some over the time gap, due to Naruto's influence of course, and was able to have a decent conversation with Naruto without stuttering or blushing. That's the issue I have: it seems to me that Hinata magically overcame her troubles, faults and weaknesses without proper addressing of them. That's the reason why most people were surprised by the latest events. It's not because her feelings were not obvious enough (or at least, that shouldn't have been the case) but because she herself was not yet at the point of her growth to come out and do what she did. Granted, a good part of this has to do with the fact that Naruto's life was in danger, so that might have given her the motivation to overcome her fear and be so bold, but even so that should have been directly mentioned.



I get what you are saying here.
*Spoiler*: __ 



My first reaction to 437, beyond my obligated fangirlish shrieking, was me thinking that it seemed rather? off for Hinata to be so absolutely without fear or nervousness. But, after looking back at the buildup to that chapter, I don?t find it to be unreasonable. For several chapters (since 434), Hinata had been watching Naruto and worrying over him. Her first reaction was to want to help him, but she was initially talked out of it by Koh. Until 437, she makes sparse appearance in which she worries about Naruto. Then comes her infamous scene.




We know that over the timeskip Hinata became a chuunin. That tells us that either she improved a great deal ninja-wise, or that she drew an easy bracket in the finals. (Unlikely, but not impossible.) In part 1, we saw her improving in confidence during her preliminary fight with Neji _where Naruto was watching._ As most characters continued to improve over the timeskip, we assumed that she would as well.

But then we saw her disastrous meeting with Naruto, where she fainted within a chapter after thinking that she ?wasn?t ready?.

She wasn?t ready for what? Talking to the one she loved and admired? She did that in chapter 98 and didn?t seem to have thing big of a problem, and I really don?t think that Kishimoto would have had her character regress like that. So far, there were two things Hinata lacked: she hadn?t developed an especially close bond with Naruto, and she hadn?t told him that she loved him. The first one wouldn?t have been that hard?it?s Naruto, the boy who walks around giving out friendship the way Santa gives out presents. The second one, I could see being hard.

So where am I going with this? Well, if Hinata was planning on confessing to Naruto, it would explain a lot of her awkwardness, would it not? Aren?t we all awkward when confessing how we really feel about someone? Does that mean that we are incredibly shy people, or that we aren?t mature as people? No. It?s a human reaction to be nervous about confessing, and it doesn?t reflect on us as people.


*Spoiler*: __ 



In fact, later in part 2 we see Hinata interacting with Naruto with significantly less difficulty. In chapter 354, she managed to tell him ?Let?s do our best!? with only a slight stutter and a blush. (And remember, this is Hinata we?re talking about.) And we see her interacting with other characters just fine, such as the way she talks with Koh. Koh is a Hyuuga, a member of the very family that previously rejected her, and yet she talks to him without any apparent problem when asking if he?s alright when the village is destroyed.

What I am trying to show with this is that Hinata did mature, and that her confidence issues were lessened over part 2. As you said in your original post though, a large part of it was that Naruto was threatened. Pain was going to take him to extract the Kyuubi, killing him in the process, before she intervened. A central theme of this series, as I mentioned before, is that you become truly strong only when you are fighting to protect what is precious to you. Like when Naruto took himself to a whole other level during his fight with Gaara, Hinata took herself to another level here.




I hope that this helped you some in trying to see where people are coming from when they say that Hinata wasn?t OOC here. 



WriterforHire said:


> I'm not claiming that Hinata's feelings developed overnight. Indeed, I think the developing of those feelings is a great testimony to the strength of her character, for, unlike all the other kunochi women, she alone valued actual substantial traits within another ninja and saw the good in a person that many underestimated / overlooked. However, despite this, while Hinata may have seen more of Naruto at that time than any of the other kunochis, she still didn't know him. For to say that one can come to truly love someone only by watching what that person does, even over a great extent of time, would be the equivalent of me saying that I fell in love with Miley Cyrus because I read the tabloids and watched every movie and video I found that she was in. It takes more than mere observation for love to form.



I disagree with the comment that Hinata can?t truly love Naruto. None of us have ever spoken to the characters of Naruto or interacted with them at all. (At least, I don?t think we have?) And yet we know them, or at least think we do, well enough to create this thread. Everything we know about them, we?ve gained through watching what they said and did over a great extent of time. We?ve come to understand their characters, and to view them as important or even precious people.



> So originally Hinata's feelings for Naruto were greater than Sakura's for Naruto...but then again, at the beginning, Sakura had not feelings for Naruto. She hated him; pure and simple. What makes it more valueable _now_ is that Sakura came to know Naruto while Hinata, after seeing a great glimpse of the strength of Naruto's character, left it at that, and then held that glimpse up as a idol, saying "This is who Naruto-kun is! I must be like him!"



I agree with you about how Sakura has come to know Naruto. However, I disagree about Hinata for the reason that I explained above.



> I think this is a reason why Sakura stayed behind while Naruto was fighting while Hinata jumped in to help. It's not because Sakura would not sacrifice her life for Naruto's or that she did not want to help him. It's because she knew him enough to know that he could and would defeat Pein. Hinata jumped in because she believed he needed her help, even if that help meant her life being spent in the process.




*Spoiler*: __ 



But Naruto couldn?t defeat Pain. Before Hinata intervened, Pain had Naruto pinned down with chakra rods and was preparing to take him to have the Kyuubi extracted. Naruto was not in a position to do anything. When Pain blasted Shima, all Naruto did was say ?You bastard!? Normally, Naruto would be clobbering Pain for attacking anything, even a frog, that Naruto considered a friend. The fact that he doesn?t I find to be evidence that he can?t.

I don?t think that Sakura stayed behind because she was unwilling to sacrifice her life for Naruto. I think it was because she lacked a Byakugan, unlike Hinata, to see what was happening. During the next chapter, 438, she is shown listening to what Koh tells her about what?s happening with Naruto, and being totally dependent on this information for knowledge of the fight. Koh was not with Sakura during 437 as he was with Hinata. During 437, Sakura would have been without a Hyuuga to tell her what was happening, and therefore without a way to know.






> Actually. I was wrong before...A third part is up and coming. Sorry about all of this, I'm still getting into the flow of debating on this site, I have to learn to be more concise with my points. Either way, a counterargument is in the works.



I look forward to it. (Seriously, I do.) You have good points, and I enjoy debating with you.

The later parts of your post were already addressed by others, and this reply is long enough as it is.


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## kubik (Apr 2, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> Sakura does not reject Naruto when he asks her on dates.


Why are you spoiler tagging this?



> Naruto asking Sakura on Dates in Part 2.
> Remember after the Kakashi bell test in Part 2 of the manga? Naruto asked her on a date and Sakura said sure.


She said, if you pay. And Naruto was very happy to pay for a date with the girl of his dreams. 
imo tbh it was yet another plot device to intruduce ShikaTema in romantic light



> i think there is also a time Naruto asked Sakura on a date when sai was there but i can't remember the outcome, I'll have to go read that chapter again.


chapter called "Nicknames" cant remember number 




> Sasuke and Sakura's relationship in part 2.
> Sakura does want Sasuke to come back to the village but there has been no sign of romantic feelings on eather Sasuke or Sakura's part, i'm not saying there is no chance of it, but we don't have enough to say if Sakura still likes Sasuke or not.


Sakuras feelings for Sasuke are romantic *until proved* otherwise. Just like Narutos, just like Hinatas. Just like everything said in manga. Kishimoto doesnt need to state that AGAIN every 50 chapters or so because romance is not that important. 
Now NaruSasu bond, this is important.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 2, 2009)

First both Anti-NaruSaku AND NaruSaku take the dating shit too seriously. NaruSaku isn't about Naruto asking dates. It just reflects the fact he has physical attraction towards her and would like this acceptance. So yeah he doesn't take the matter religiously. On the other hand, I don't see why he should when he's pretty coherent in doing what's best for her even though she's into Sasuke. You know, distancing himself from expected disappointment, which would explain why he was so incredulous about Sakura feeding him ramen []. You ain't got nothing on NaruSaku that isn't reversible, cos if you guys don't ship NaruSasu, then you can't make the same suppositions its pairing logic does. Doing so you are insinuating that Naruto wants Sakura's attention for complexes he has towards Sasuke O.o that would be really gay. So I really suggest you don't use it.


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## Griever (Apr 2, 2009)

kubik said:


> Why are you spoiler tagging this?
> 
> 
> She said, if you pay. And Naruto was very happy to pay for a date with the girl of his dreams.
> ...



I don't know aren't you supposed to spoiler tag them when you are talking about events that have happend in the manga? or am i mistaken?.

well for me Saukra's feelings for Sasuke are not romantic and thay are not..not romantic untill proven otherwise because there is nothing saying she does not feel that was but nothing that says she does feel that way.(But that's my opinion)

But the point of it was that she said yes to Naruto asking her on a date.

ahh right "Nicknames" thank you.


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## kubik (Apr 2, 2009)

Grieverff8 said:


> I don't know aren't you supposed to spoiler tag them when you are talking about events that have happend in the manga? or am i mistaken?.


Nah just the recent ones... I hope 



> well for me Saukra's feelings for Sasuke are not romantic and thay are not..not romantic untill proven otherwise because there is nothing saying she does not feel that was but nothing that says she does feel that way.(But that's my opinion)


So you took my statement, flip it around so it suits your needs, and post it again?
Fair enough 



> But the point of it was that she said yes to Naruto asking her on a date.


Im sure that she didnt think about it as romantic date 


> ahh right "Nicknames" thank you.


 glad to be helpful


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## JERITROLL (Apr 2, 2009)

Don't have anything to debate about ATM, but I do have a reminder. YES, you DO have to spoiler tag stuff that hasn't happened in the Anime yet. This is the House of Uzumaki, and there are some (though I honestly don't know how many) users that come here that aren't reading the Manga, let's be considerate here.


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## moonjump05 (Apr 2, 2009)

Alright, here we go!



izzyisozaki said:


> And I never assumed it lacked interaction. But it still lacks the same level of understanding. Hasn't even Pein said that you can't understand someone without having experienced their same pain? Well Hinata and Naruto don't even have the development for that like NaruSaku. This is what I mean. Naruto can empathize _generally_ with people but that doesn't mean he always emotionally catches onto them or has the need to.



Naruto and Hinata don't have the development of bonding over Sasuke like Naruto and Sakura, just like Naruto and Sakura don't have the development of bonding over determination and their shared nindo like Naruto and Hinata.  The same could be said of any comparison between any two bonds.  Just because it isn't the same doesn't mean it's not significant.

And with Naruto's goal of acknowledgement, he does have a need to emotionally catch on to other characters- it's how he forms those friends and family that he never had.





> Sasuke being Naruto's most important person is canon; there is consistant evidence and direct quotes. The fact it's not romantic is a sword with a double edge if you want to use it as a comparison



And I don't remember ever saying he's not.  I remember questioning your insistence that you are the supreme authority on what Sasuke meant by jumping out for Naruto:


> me said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And guess what?  I don't ship Sasuke with anyone.

How is it double edged if I want to compare the two scenes in question- focused on how much Naruto means to each of them respectively?  I can compare the very similar scenes, Hinata's and Sasuke's just like I can compare them both to Iruka's or Tsunade's.  Not every exact thing in any four of those scenes are the same, however so many things are similar it doesn't detract from the comparison.



> This is a debate thread and that wasn't the point. Personally I found Hinata's dying for true love bullshit and think she died for an ideal based on her empathy with Naruto but that doesn't mean she can't die cos she cares. The issue is SIGNIFICANCE. If some classmate died for your sake would it be like your close friend dying?
> No.
> And I simply think the allegations she made weren't very anchored or set up thus not something which will necessarily stimulate Naruto in a romantic manner [imo]. You can't force yourself to love someone.



And Hinata isn't some random Konoha ninja that barely knows Naruto.



> I already said I was countering a bigger arguement than what you mentioned in your post.
> If you are going to compare those for the sake of showing the depth of her feelings in that sense, I find it pointless. Cos Naruto, according to the context, most probably went Kyuubi for multiple reasons, and there are plenty of other persons who have risked their life to defend Naruto. So if one uses the Haku scene, which already implies a hell of a lot, it's contradictory since 1. Sasuke didn't die on romantic pretensions 2. Naruto went Kyuubi and was going to kill Haku clearly to exclusively AVENGE Sasuke and that was it 3. Sasuke's body moved automatically and he was already in the battle, thus no selfish behavior was entailed etc.
> 
> Yeah, Hinata decided to die protecting someone she considered precious. That does not mean it's usefully comparable to that scene unless you are stating the former obvious.



And again, I am not undermining Sasuke's sacrifice.  One sacrifice doesn't cancel out the other you know.  1.  And why does a romantic motive negate the sacrifice? Oh right, it's _Hinata's _romantic pretensions. 2.  Yeah, and then he empathsizes with Haku and doesn't kill him- way to go on that avenging Naruto!  Meanwhile...
*Spoiler*: __ 



Having Jiraiya killed recently, unable to find Sasuke, his village destroyed, Kakashi seemingly dead, Tsunade exhausted, Frogman killed, Shima next, being pinned down unable to answer a question of utmost importance, and about to be dragged away to have the monster inside of him extracted- not only killing him but allowing Pain to have the ultimate weapon- wasn't enough to make Naruto go Kyuubi.  Hinata dying in front of him was the trigger.  3.  Hinata was about to run out to Naruto before- something that looked like an automatic reaction to me.  And are you still arguing that it was selfish?  Hinata was willing to die for Naruto so that he could live.  It's pretty much the most unselfish thing a person can do.








> Only *male/male* and maybe Saku-->Sasu have been compared to Sasuke/Naruto IN THE MANGA. See what I did there? I don't need to pull parallels out of my ass, cos I already have them in the manga. Here's the list of what SasuNaru has been compared to: Sai/unrelated brother [according to Sai], Orochimaru/Kimimaro [according to Gaara], Haku/Zabuza [in an indirect way], Orochimaru/Jiraiya [difficult comparison according to Kakashi]. As for the thing meant about Gabz/MissP's opinions it's not always ridiculous when it comes to certain things: cos NaruHina can't be compared with the uncomparable till now. It's mainly supposed to be confronting itself with "romantic themed" pairings like NaruSaku, not SasuNaru, unless you seriously intend to treat SasuNaru as romantic material. And so far NH is not even as near as complex as NaruSaku. Do you see the double standard??



So only relationships that were compared in the manga are comparable to me now?

*Spoiler*: __ 



And I'll repeat myself again, where am I comparing _Naruto's _feelings for Sasuke to his feelings for Hinata?  As far as I can tell I've been comparing the way Sasuke and Hinata showed how much Naruto means to them each respectively.  I haven't said anything about how Naruto views them- beyond the fact that they are both important to him in different ways.

You're reading way too much into my comparison of the two scenes.  The two scenes highlight how much Naruto means to Sasuke and Hinata respectively- just like the scenes with Iruka, also another similiar scene and one I was going to point out as well, and Tsunade, not quite as similar but still comparable.  I wonder if you would have a problem with me comparing those two scenes to Hinata's or Sasuke's.




I need to go back to work- more later...


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## moonjump05 (Apr 3, 2009)

It's dead... spoilers must be out...





> I disagree since the circumstances, insinuations, and emotional positions were different.
> 
> Yeah but it gets messy when the _important person_ stuff comes up. Cos not even Sakura can compete with that. I'm talking about for Naruto, not for Hinata [even if I find her "true love" allegations quite weak].



Again, I feel it superfluous to compare the deep bonds in a quantitative way.  I'd rather see the differences between the bonds- why the two characters relate to each other, how the two characters relate to each other.
Not only for pairings, but to see the differences in  the bonds themselves- how one can be a student/teacher and another can be more family like.




> You misunderstand. Pairing fans are saying it's for true love and what not. That can't be when you have no significant relationship with that other person! She can die for an ideal and empathy but not for _true_ love. I don't believe she understands him all that much except when it's in relation to _herself_ [though she sure was more promising than Sakura at times]. A love confession will not make up for what _lacks_. It needs development.



Well, all the pairing need more development.  I think it a bit premature to throw in the towel development wise.



> Then don't insist on Hinata and Naruto's amazing mutual development.



But mutual development doesn't equal romantic love


*Spoiler*: __ 



I was saying that I hope I didn't imply that a confession by itself was indicative of canoness or reciprocation.






WriterforHire said:


> Please excuse me: I'm about to use an example, and one that I am not sure will actually make sense in the end, so bare with me.
> 
> In _A Rose For Emily,_ a eighteenth century short story, we see a young woman who was deeply in love with this young man, which is rather typical for most stories. However, that man himself wished to leave, because he decided he wasn't "the marrying sort". But, Emily arranged things so this would not be possible, so, night after night; they slept by each other's sides, in the same bed; a very happy ending.
> 
> ...



It's not that Naruto and Sakura were worthless to Sasuke, but that his need for revenge greater.
So much emphasis was put on Sasuke's parting with both of them, so many times it showed he cared.  But before them- he lived for his revenge.  It was his dream to kill his brother.  It was something that he had to do, not only for himself but for the other slain Uchiha.
Does this mean that Naruto and Sakura were worthless to him?  No.  They were bonds he couldn't help but make.  They were bonds he knew he would have to try and sever when his revenge came.  They were bonds that gave him happiness for a short while, that he came to cherish.

And this is more personal interpretation, but I think he really had to work hard to try and sever the bonds he made with the two of them.  Try being the operative word.  
*Spoiler*: __ 



Because even now he thought of them favorably at the Naruto Bridge.


  Perhaps it was because he didn't want them in the way, or maybe because he didn't want them in the way to get- in his mind -even more hurt and crushed than they would have if he just left.



> Without a doubt.
> 
> This latest event has great promise, both in a romantic light and a platonic light. But that is just what it is: promise. There was promise in multiple different scenarios, ways that Kishi could have subtly built up their relationship to the point where the readers really were rooting for Hinata. But Kishi didn't take those opportunities. I really wish, _really, really _ wish, that Kishi had developed this pairing more. A lot more. Then I might believe that such a scene we so recently saw could have happened in real life. Personally, even with the "manga laws of anime" or whatever you call them, I can't see this happening.




*Spoiler*: __ 



And this is where we'll have to disagree.  For a supporting female character, Hinata has had remarkable buildup- yeah I don't expect much for women when it comes to Kishi- in the times she has appeared.
And what would have been more out of place?  Hinata hanging around when she's not on the same team and has no reason to be there, or everytime Hinata does appear she thinks about Naruto and is concerned for him?  

And since I am a NaruHina shipper of course I want more interaction, but what they have had is enough for me to ship them together.




part 1


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## moonjump05 (Apr 3, 2009)

> Undoubtedly Sasuke was the catalyst that caused Naruto and Sakura to grow closer together. But, in the end, does it matter how they got where they are? The fact of the matter is that the two of them are very close, two peas in a pod (in more ways then one). Naruto and Hinata are not that close. And Sasuke out rightly decided that his bond with Sakura and Naruto was actually _weakening_ him, holding him back.



The problem, In my eyes, of Sasuke in the NaruSaku romantic bond is that not only is he the only thing they really click on, or Sakura's romantic feelings for him, but rather that they are both still fixated on him.  Before anything romantic between them could ever happen, Naruto and Sakura have to resolve the Sasuke issue.  Sasuke will always stand between them as long as he is gone.  And if he dies or something, Sasuke will always stand between them as a reminder of their failure.
Of course Naruto and Sakura are close, however if anything happens that isn't Sasuke related they don't really relate.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Jiraiya dies, Sakura is more concerned about Tsunade and yells at Naruto- she doesn't know how to handle him, Iruka, Shikamaru, Tsunade and even Shiho show her up.


  And this isnt' meant as a proNaruHina but only as an antiNaruSaku.
And Sasuke did think that his bonds weakened him, does that mean that his thought was right?  Do you really think that was the undeniable truth or him explaining away to himself why he had to hurt Naruto and Sakura to go through with his revenge?



> It's a very, very good thing, especially if you're going to treat it so seriously. Because the way that Sakura treats him is a two - edged sword. If your going to say that the beatings should be considered serious moments that actually portray a significant flaw in Sakura's character, then the question then arrives, why does Naruto put up with her? Sasuke will not work. It really won't. Nor the fact they are on the same team. For if he had a problem couldn't he simply tell her to stop? Or avoid her? Or heck just show a bit of anger at her! The way he acts around her, the fact that he seems content with the way she treats him, the fact that he seems to want to spend every available amount of spare time around her indicates one thing and one thing alone:
> *
> That despite the way she treats him, Naruto still likes Sakura*.



Doesn't say much about Sakura though...



> That's one heck of a devotion, which would put serious doubt on the claim that Naruto only feels platonic feelings for Sakura with that alone, and doubly so since it?s establish fact that he has a crush on her. If anything, these interactions can be used to testify to the strength of Naruto's feelings, for if _I _ was being put under such abuse, there would be no way I'd put up with it, even if it was from a girl I positively worshiped. (Not that such a girl exists....)



And if a guy gave that abuse to me- I wouldn't think he loved me.  

Naruto takes the abuse that Sakura continues to give out.  And this is a sign of his devotion?  At best it shows him starving for attention, at worst a sign of masochism.  If it were real, then people would be calling the police.
That's not love or devotion.  That's an unhealthy obsession with someone who doesn't care about you.



> Only that such an amazingly close bond can easily dwarf Hinata's openly romantic one.



Again, I feel it superfluous to compare the bonds _quantitatively_.  Naruto and Sakura can have a close bond just like Naruto and plenty of other characters- but if it never develops romantically, how does it prevent a romantic bond for Hinata?

It's like saying that Naruto has an amazingly close platonic bond with Gaara, but how does that prevent a romantic bond from forming with Hinata?  Or any other character for that matter?



> For instance, there's a girl at school I really like. But, like Hinata, I refrained from telling her my feelings, but, unlike Hinata, I never decieved myself into thinking I had a chance. That's because this girl has a friend. Just a friend. They are both dating someone else. (Which, originally, I thought was the reason for my hesitation) Yet it's so clear to everyone that they like each other. They talk every day. Spend every moment with each other. They laugh and joke constantly. Yet, for some reason, they seem oblivious even when everyone else sees it; there's a pool going on to guess when the guy will finally ask this friend out.



And Hinata has never witnessed these supposed close moments between Naruto and Sakura- if she had it would've been a device in which to drop her feelings and hype the others, a common shounen staple.




> I think the situation mirrors enough to say that if I did to my crush exactly what Hinata did for Naruto, that the bond these two have is so strong that it'll forever but a gap between the two of us, even if, for some reason, she decides to take me seriously and we start to date. In the same way, I believe that Naruto's relationship with Sakura is so strong that even if Naruto decides to give Hinata a chance Sakura will forever be at a forefront of his mind, unless he comes to value Hinata so much that she replaces Sakura, which takes a lot of time. A girlfriend must take priority of a friend who is a girl.



And the situations aren't that similar.  Hinata has never given any indication that she thinks Naruto and Sakura are an item.  Sakura and Naruto romantic relationship doesn't exist at this point- only humor.

You really think Naruto is in love with Sakura to that point?



> I'm not so sure.
> 
> This would have been different had Hinata been shown, in the beginning of Part 2, to have grown some over the time gap, due to Naruto's influence of course, and was able to have a decent conversation with Naruto without stuttering or blushing. That's the issue I have: it seems to me that Hinata magically overcame her troubles, faults and weaknesses without proper addressing of them. That's the reason why most people were surprised by the latest events. It's not because her feelings were not obvious enough (or at least, that shouldn't have been the case) but because she herself was not yet at the point of her growth to come out and do what she did. Granted, a good part of this has to do with the fact that Naruto's life was in danger, so that might have given her the motivation to overcome her fear and be so bold, but even so that should have been directly mentioned.



Hinata has grown over the timeskip- she became chuunin, at the very least addressing her ninja shortcomings.  She was able to interact with Naruto while 
*Spoiler*: __ 



searching for Sasuke


 without excessive stuttering or blushing or any fainting.  And then
*Spoiler*: __ 



Her confession.  She appears three times collectively and confesses.  I think a good portion of her motivation was that Naruto was in danger like you said.


 however this Hinata is one that had been hinted at since the chuunin exam.  During her fight with Neji- after Naruto motivates her- she becomes strong and determined and doesn't stutter or blush in embarrassment.  She falls, but she has become stronger from that event- in her own words, Kurenai's and even Naruto's.  Do you see the similarities between the two events?
*Spoiler*: __ 



I think we will see something similar now- a stronger Hinata that drew strength from Naruto to change herself just like she did way back then.




part 2


----------



## moonjump05 (Apr 3, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> Hey. No need for sarcasm. I fully intend to explain myself. At length. With a ramble.
> 
> I'm not claiming that Hinata's feelings developed overnight. Indeed, I think the developing of those feelings is a great testimony to the strength of her character, for, unlike all the other kunochi women, she alone valued actual substantial traits within another ninja and saw the good in a person that many underestimated / overlooked. However, despite this, while Hinata may have seen more of Naruto at that time than any of the other kunochis, she still didn't know him. For to say that one can come to truly love someone only by watching what that person does, even over a great extent of time, would be the equivalent of me saying that I fell in love with Miley Cyrus because I read the tabloids and watched every movie and video I found that she was in. It takes more than mere observation for love to form.



But then again, reading about someone or watching videos of them isn't empathsizing with them or relating to them either.



> So originally Hinata's feelings for Naruto were greater than Sakura's for Naruto...but then again, at the beginning, Sakura had not feelings for Naruto. She hated him; pure and simple. What makes it more valueable _now_ is that Sakura came to know Naruto while *Hinata, after seeing a great glimpse of the strength of Naruto's character, left it at that, and then held that glimpse up as a idol, saying "This is who Naruto-kun is! I must be like him*!"



My comment about the beginning was in reference to the timescale of Hinata's feelings- not an argument of she was the first.

The bolded part I must disagree with.  You really think Hinata idolizes him?  Idolization involves overlooking any negative points, which Hinata clearly acknowledges Naruto's negative points during their conversation before his fight with Neji.  She does admire him and want to be like him.  She draws strength to change herself from him.  I don't think in anyway that this is idolization or a negative thing for her.  In fact, Sakura does these too to a certain extent, as do most other characters that Naruto is close with- Gaara especially.  Are they merely idolizing him, too?  Are their bonds somehow less?



> I think this is a reason why Sakura stayed behind while Naruto was fighting while Hinata jumped in to help. It's not because Sakura would not sacrifice her life for Naruto's or that she did not want to help him. It's because she knew him enough to know that he could and would defeat Pein. Hinata jumped in because she believed he needed her help, even if that help meant her life being spent in the process.



I don't think Sakura wouldn't have done those things either.  However:
*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto wasn't- at the point Hinata intervened- able to defeat Pain.  He was immobilized and about to be taken away to be killed, he was questioning himself on his philosophy.  Hinata stopped the first part, Minato stopped the second.
What was she supposed to do?  Say, 'It's alright... Naruto-kun will do it!  I don't need to do jack even though Pain just left with him.'?
It's not a lack of believing in him- but doing what she could to help, and Naruto needed help at that point.










> I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here: the words are all jumbled. But, if I have you right, this is essencially what you're saying. Why should Narusaku happen since Sakura doesn't want him that way, and he (Naruto) doesn't seem to want it all that much and not to mention that Sakura doesn't owe Naruto anything for whatever he does on his own.



Correctamundo



> If this is correct, and excuse me if it is not, then I want to address the last part first, since the other two are by far stronger points and will take a bit of work to refute them. To begin with: Who said that Sakrua was indebted to Naruto at all? Surely that wasn't anything I had hinted at, and even if I could imagine how such a thing could be worked out, debts and repaying debts is not a theme seen in Naruto whatsoever, so it would merely be a opinion. And if it's an opinion, why bother with it unless the debater is attempting to use it as a fact?



It's the NF forums... get used to it for reals.



> As for your other two questions: Who says that Naruto doesn't take his feelings seriously? You? Kishi? Everyone in the manga? His own actions?
> 
> Even if this was the case: Naruto can still care for her deeply.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, we don't see the daily thoughts of Naruto. He might very well be thinking of Sakura more often then we see in the actual manga. In fact, I can guarantee it. Also, just because you act childish and dismiss your own feelings doesn't mean they are not there. Even if everyone else dismiss your feelings also, and say that your just fooling around, you can know, deep down, that those feelings are real, but so long as you don't act on them in a serious or mature manner, most won't see it.



Invisible thoughts that are never given panel time.  Childish actions to cover up truelove.  Naruto's feelings are just deep down where no one can see them.

Kishi needs to show these things.

Besides the fact that everytime romance comes up between the two it's treated as a joke or buildup for a joke after the PoaL.  That Naruto shows no disappointment in being rejected by Sakura,  That no one comments on how it hurts Naruto.  That no one else feels any remorse of embarrassment for interrupting their supposed moments.  It's still serious.



> As for Sakura not feeling that way for Naruto; I have a serious question for you. Can you name for me one relationship in the manga, save the Narusasu one, that is stronger than the Narusaku bond?



I don't like to rank them like that but here goes:
Naruto and Gaara
Naruto and Jiraiya
Naruto and Tsunade
Naruto and Iruka
Lee and Gai
Sasuke and Itachi
Sakura and Ino
Sakura and Tsunade
Do I need go on?



> While we might be able to say that since Shikamaru and Choji were childhood friends and are on the same team that they should be very close, but we see both of them only a handful of times, so their relationship is nowhere near as developed as Naruto's and Sakura's. Such is the case for all the other relationships also. The interworking of Team 7 has been the highlight of this manga for many years.



It may not be given the highlight, but does that make it any less?



> When it comes down to the nitty gritty, the main problem I have with Naruhina is the fact was not interested in Hinata originally. While this may not seem to be a lot, it really is. That?s because Naruto is seen as an agent of change. He makes people change. But Naruto himself never does. That's why he is so reliable, so trustworthy. He's like a rock. People should change. People do change. But Naruto has the unique ability to win people over to his side, to his way of thinking, and to make strong, long lasting bonds. So, while Sakura may not like him romantically now, I feel confident that such a thing could change, for we have seen, time and time again, that Naruto changes people just by being himself. If he were to change now and develop feelings for Hinata, that would be an anomaly in the course of the manga. Someone would be changing _him_.



But Naruto does change over the course of the manga- each and every bond he makes brings a new perspective to him.  The people he has met have shaped him into the person he is today.  Like taking a lump of clay and slowly sculpting it.  And it is one of the reasons why I like Naruto as a character- he is very dynamic for shounen.  And one of the reasons I can't stand Goku
And Sakura has already made an amazing change- from hating him to holding him as a friend and teammate- someone who she wants to protect.

part 3


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 3, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> Naruto and Hinata don't have the development of bonding over Sasuke like Naruto and Sakura, *just like Naruto and Sakura don't have the development of bonding over determination and their shared nindo* like Naruto and Hinata.



Sakura's opinion on Naruto and also her character in regards to that has changed completely. There is evidence that he inspires her on that.



> And with Naruto's goal of acknowledgement, he does have a need to emotionally catch on to other characters- it's how he forms those friends and family that he never had.



You're kidding right? Naruto wants to be acknowledged in a special way by Sasuke and by alternate reasoning Sakura. It isn't a coincidence, he has REASONS to be drawn to people. Someone who lacked love their entire life doesn't make them emotional whores in that sense. They are even more sensitive to what they want! Why the helk is Naruto stalking Sasuke!?!?! It's based on mutual attraction, in any significant relationship this dynamic will be there.



> And I don't remember ever saying he's not.  I remember questioning your insistence that you are the supreme authority on what Sasuke meant by jumping out for Naruto:



Manga evidence and even the databook 



> And guess what?  I don't ship Sasuke with anyone.



Doesn't change anything.



> How is it double edged if I want to compare the two scenes in question- focused on how much Naruto means to each of them respectively?  I can compare the very similar scenes, Hinata's and Sasuke's just like I can compare them both to Iruka's or Tsunade's.  Not every exact thing in any four of those scenes are the same, however so many things are similar it doesn't detract from the comparison.



Look, for the millionth time, I'm not making a rebuttal of that mere comparison in that sense  you admitted yourself that "You are assuming it will develop in a similar sequence and I simply disagree in using that comparison" so don't try to twist your arguements with me.



> And Hinata isn't some random Konoha ninja that barely knows Naruto.



Then why did she let him suffer in the loneliest years of his life 



> And again, I am not undermining Sasuke's sacrifice.  One sacrifice doesn't cancel out the other you know.  1.  And why does a romantic motive negate the sacrifice? Oh right, it's _Hinata's _romantic pretensions. 2.  *Yeah, and then he empathsizes with Haku and doesn't kill him- way to go on that avenging Naruto!*  Meanwhile...



Guess why, cos Haku escaped  read the manga.

Where did I say that one sacrifice cancels out another ? I just said they aren't the same.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Having Jiraiya killed recently, unable to find Sasuke, his village destroyed, Kakashi seemingly dead, Tsunade exhausted, Frogman killed, Shima next, being pinned down unable to answer a question of utmost importance, and about to be dragged away to have the monster inside of him extracted- not only killing him but allowing Pain to have the ultimate weapon- wasn't enough to make Naruto go Kyuubi.  Hinata dying in front of him was the trigger.  3.  Hinata was about to run out to Naruto before- something that looked like an automatic reaction to me.  And are you still arguing that it was selfish?  Hinata was willing to die for Naruto so that he could live.  It's pretty much the most unselfish thing a person can do.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Automatic reaction indeed. It's called last straw when having your back against the wall when someone just died helplessly in front of you using you as the reason.

No, Hinata died knowing she couldn't compete.





> So only relationships that were compared in the manga are comparable to me now?



No  it's when they're too dissimilar to let you prove anything new.


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And I'll repeat myself again, where am I comparing _Naruto's _feelings for Sasuke to his feelings for Hinata?  As far as I can tell I've been comparing the way Sasuke and Hinata showed how much Naruto means to them each respectively.  I haven't said anything about how Naruto views them- beyond the fact that they are both important to him in different ways.


Already replied to this above. I'm tired of repeating myself.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> You're reading way too much into my comparison of the two scenes.  *The two scenes highlight how much Naruto means to Sasuke and Hinata respectively- just like the scenes with Iruka, also another similiar scene and one I was going to point out as well, and Tsunade, not quite as similar but still comparable.*  I wonder if you would have a problem with me comparing those two scenes to Hinata's or Sasuke's


Well good.


----------



## KnightEnvy (Apr 3, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> The problem, In my eyes, of Sasuke in the NaruSaku romantic bond is that not only is he the only thing they really click on, or Sakura's romantic feelings for him, but rather that they are both still fixated on him.  Before anything romantic between them could ever happen, Naruto and Sakura have to resolve the Sasuke issue.  Sasuke will always stand between them as long as he is gone.  And if he dies or something, Sasuke will always stand between them as a reminder of their failure.
> Of course Naruto and Sakura are close, however if anything happens that isn't Sasuke related they don't really relate.



I agreed with most of this up till recently.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Lately, Kishi has been bringing romantic issues to the forefront.  This suggests that developing the romance aspect might happen concurrently with the save Sasuke storyline.  That includes both Naruhina and NaruSaku.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And is she supposed to know how to act?  When in the manga has Naruto acted this way?  The only other time he was this angry (arguably) is when Kabuto and Orochimaru goaded him into going Kyuubi.  I don't think anyone would 'know' how to deal with Naruto at this point.

The other thing is that Sakura has never really pulled punches with Naruto.  She is honest and forthright with him.  Even though he was upset and angry, she was telling him he was out of line, and probably the only one he would listen to when he is told like that.



> And if a guy gave that abuse to me- I wouldn't think he loved me.



Because it is a manga, it deals with extremes.  When I say something silly, my g/f has in the past slapped my shoulder or do some playful (yet semi-violent) action that would let me know that she disapproved.  In the manga something like this would be exaggerated.  Such as Sakura punching Naruto for saying something stupid causing him to slide 100 yards on his stomach, and leaving a trench the whole way.  If we were really to apply realism, then we would expect him to go to the hospital or die on the spot from such power.  Read up on the suspension of disbelief.



> Naruto takes the abuse that Sakura continues to give out.  And this is a sign of his devotion?  At best it shows him starving for attention, at worst a sign of masochism.  If it were real, then people would be calling the police.
> That's not love or devotion.  That's an unhealthy obsession with someone who doesn't care about you.



The hatred is real, but the results are fake?  That doesn't make sense.  You have to take the whole scene into context.  Obviously she wasn't trying to hurt him, otherwise he would be hurt if he took that punch.  Instead he jumps up and the scene goes on. 

So what does it mean then?  Well usually it is in context to him saying something absurd.  Ie. pervertedness.  So we can say that her hitting him is a sign of disapproval of his actions.  This isn't an overall disapproval of Naruto himself, but instead just what he is doing at that moment.  So we can not take the 'punching' scenes as a sign of dislike for Naruto.  I can say this because the majority of the time, she listens, talks with, helps, and even saves Naruto.  That makes these some isolated but extreme circumstance.  

Also note that with most other characters in the Manga (other than her best friend Ino), she is very reserved.  It seems to me that she is most comfortable with Ino and Naruto, and it shows when she lets down her guard, and acts with less restraint.



> Again, I feel it superfluous to compare the bonds _quantitatively_.  Naruto and Sakura can have a close bond just like Naruto and plenty of other characters- but if it never develops romantically, how does it prevent a romantic bond for Hinata?



I agree with this.  One doesn't nullify the other till one is canon.  There could be a romantic NaruSaku bond right now, yet it hasn't been developed because neither has openly admitted to the other their feelings.  So therefore there isn't a romantic relationship as of yet.  As long as this remains like this, NaruHina has a chance.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And Hinata has never witnessed these supposed close moments between Naruto and Sakura- if she had it would've been a device in which to drop her feelings and hype the others, a common shounen staple.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Or it could be that Hinata's confession forces Sakura to face her own feelings.







> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes I believe Naruto is in love with Sakura, but you are correct in the fact that there is no visible relationship other than them being teammates.  The only ones that know there might be feelings between Naruto and Sakura are Kakashi, Yamagichi (the frog), Konohamaru, and Sasuke (they all know Naruto has feelings for Sakura) as well as Yamato and Sai (both have made comments suggesting Sakura having feelings for Naruto).  None of this is in the form of a formal relationship however.



> Hinata has grown over the timeskip- she became chuunin, at the very least addressing her ninja shortcomings.  She was able to interact with Naruto while
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Most of that development came in the span of 4 pages.  Hinata has had very little development at all.  This includes not only NaruHina development, but just general development overall. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



To be honest, the latest seemed a little thrown in there, though it is plausible with what we know of Hinata.  I also look forward to what it could mean to the story. But up untill lately, there has been virtually nothing.   Hinata's character has had more development in the last few chapters than all of part 2.


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## Kanai (Apr 3, 2009)

Uhm. I cast my vote for NaruHina, but I like NaruSaku.
In other words, I want NaruHina to happen, but I hate NaruHina.
But most of all, I KNOW that Hinata's all so wonderful and she did a "courageous" thing. But most of all,

*Spoiler*: __ 



I WANT TO KNOW NARUTO'S REACTION! NAOUGH! *screams*


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## Miss Happy (Apr 3, 2009)

KnightEnvy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Lately, Kishi has been bringing romantic issues to the forefront.  This suggests that developing the romance aspect might happen concurrently with the save Sasuke storyline.  That includes both Naruhina and NaruSaku.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Narusaku can't become canon if sasuke comes back...i'm not kishi-sama but i just don't see it...don't see how those two will be together with sasu-kun aroundi mean narusaku will mean less attention to the sauce






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Or it could be that Hinata's confession forces Sakura to face her own feelings.



*Spoiler*: __ 



i'll say only this short phrase:NARUTO IS _*NOT*_ TWILIGHT!SAKURA is not BELLA!
 i just hope that this manga is a bit more serious!


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 3, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Narusaku can't become canon if sasuke comes back...i'm not kishi-sama but i just don't see it...don't see how those two will be together with sasu-kun aroundi mean narusaku will mean less attention to the sauce



That's bs.

Sasuke already gets too much of their attention  NaruSaku doesn't stop anything


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## Miss Happy (Apr 3, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> That's bs.
> 
> Sasuke already gets too much of their attention  NaruSaku doesn't stop anything



yes that bs!
i don't really know what bs means but it's bs!




..............................................................................................
  








...ok narusaku is fine!
as long as sasu-kun finds himself a cute girl!
he's still young he has plenty of time to find one and to develop a strong bond with her!


----------



## KnightEnvy (Apr 3, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Narusaku can't become canon if sasuke comes back...i'm not kishi-sama but i just don't see it...don't see how those two will be together with sasu-kun aroundi mean narusaku will mean less attention to the sauce



ROFL.  Well, my opinion is that Sasuke coming back will be the end of the series, so it wouldn't be a big issue.  Plus, Sasuke now is much different than Sasuke when he left.  To say it would be the same as before is silly.  All three of them are different in various ways.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't know.  I have never seen or read anything with those names in it.


----------



## moonjump05 (Apr 3, 2009)

KnightEnvy said:


> I agreed with most of this up till recently.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'd add SasuSaku in there as well, especially if it's another 'Save Sasuke' arc.








> And is she supposed to know how to act?  When in the manga has Naruto acted this way?  The only other time he was this angry (arguably) is when Kabuto and Orochimaru goaded him into going Kyuubi.  I don't think anyone would 'know' how to deal with Naruto at this point.




*Spoiler*: __ 



And yet Tsunade knew enough to leave him alone for a while.  Shikamaru knew enough to bring Naruto to Kurenai.  Iruka knew enough to share the popsicle with him.






> The other thing is that Sakura has never really pulled punches with Naruto.  She is honest and forthright with him.  Even though he was upset and angry, she was telling him he was out of line, and probably the only one he would listen to when he is told like that.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura is honest and forthright.  But the way she went about it didn't help Naruto.  The others were much more effective and they didn't lie or coddle Naruto either.






> Because it is a manga, it deals with extremes.  When I say something silly, my g/f has in the past slapped my shoulder or do some playful (yet semi-violent) action that would let me know that she disapproved.  In the manga something like this would be exaggerated.  Such as Sakura punching Naruto for saying something stupid causing him to slide 100 yards on his stomach, and leaving a trench the whole way.  If we were really to apply realism, then we would expect him to go to the hospital or die on the spot from such power.  Read up on the suspension of disbelief.



Me and writer were taking it seriously for a comparison.  I'm not saying the punches were not for comedy or not exaggerated.



> ]The hatred is real, but the results are fake?  That doesn't make sense.  You have to take the whole scene into context.  Obviously she wasn't trying to hurt him, otherwise he would be hurt if he took that punch.  Instead he jumps up and the scene goes on.
> 
> So what does it mean then?  Well usually it is in context to him saying something absurd.  Ie. pervertedness.  So we can say that her hitting him is a sign of disapproval of his actions.  This isn't an overall disapproval of Naruto himself, but instead just what he is doing at that moment.  So we can not take the 'punching' scenes as a sign of dislike for Naruto.  I can say this because the majority of the time, she listens, talks with, helps, and even saves Naruto.  That makes these some isolated but extreme circumstance.
> 
> Also note that with most other characters in the Manga (other than her best friend Ino), she is very reserved.  It seems to me that she is most comfortable with Ino and Naruto, and it shows when she lets down her guard, and acts with less restraint.



See above.



> I agree with this.  One doesn't nullify the other till one is canon.  There could be a romantic NaruSaku bond right now, yet it hasn't been developed because neither has openly admitted to the other their feelings.  So therefore there isn't a romantic relationship as of yet.  As long as this remains like this, NaruHina has a chance.



Well I'd add that it hasn't been developed because neither one is in love with the other, but that't just me being nitpicky.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Or it could be that Hinata's confession forces Sakura to face her own feelings.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I would be dissatisfied with this for a number of reasons.  First it does nothing for Sakura's character growth or her character.  She has developed into a strong capable person who wants to protect those she holds dear- she isn't a jealous fangirl anymore who would throw away her friendship with Ino over Sasuke.  Making Sakura realize she loves Naruto over this would make her look shallow and unable to know herself.  Second, Sakura has shown no sign before hand that would warrant this type of behavior from a writing standpoint.  I could understand using Hinata's actions as a vehicle for NaruSaku- to some extent- if Sakura had ever shown ambiguity in a romantic sense or if Hinata knew of Naruto and Sakura's feelings.  Third, as a Hinata fan it makes her sacrifice look like a pointless endeavor.  Now if this was a more grity series I might be able to see it, however _Naruto _is mostly very positive in themes and I can't see Kishi backpedaling on his 'protecting other people' and 'accepting other people' themes.






> Most of that development came in the span of 4 pages.  Hinata has had very little development at all.  This includes not only NaruHina development, but just general development overall.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Again, Hinata is not a main character.  She isn't Shikamaru or Gaara.  She's just not going to have the same amount of panel space or screentime.  It doesn't negate her growth so far.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I think Kishi was purposefully hiding her from us throughout Part 2.  She gets a cameo, put on a mission( a misson that held backburner to Sasuke), and then this.  Perhaps now she has finally 'stepped out into the light'


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## Kathutet (Apr 4, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you think this event can be compared to what happened earlier? Naruto has not suffered like this in a very long time. In fact, I don't think he's suffered as much as he's doing right now.

That's the only way to make Naruto pay attention. The shock effect.


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## moonjump05 (Apr 4, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> And you think this event can be compared to what happened earlier? Naruto has not suffered like this in a very long time. In fact, I don't think he's suffered as much as he's doing right now.
> 
> That's the only way to make Naruto pay attention. The shock effect.





*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you are saying.  I didn't compare the scene where Naruto finds out about Jiraiya's death to anything else.  I was only talking about that scene.


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## mystic868 (Apr 6, 2009)

In my personal opinion NaruSaku is supposed to be revealed through all manga/anime series and that's the reason why they're not already pair. From hate through friendship and finally to love. Sasuke and Hinata plots are done to enrich whole storyline and Naruto-Sakura relations so it won't be simple way of feelings and more interesting also.
Sakura hitting lessons are for joke and to keep Naruto in order. As dictum says - "The quarrels of lovers are the renewal of love". And after conffesion I can say that Hinata will become his best friend, they will eventually meet often, talk more etc. And after 442 chapter in my opinion Sakura will be jealous and start to think a little more seriously about her feelings for Naruto. Btw the sacrifice made by Hinata is easilly compared to Sakura sacrifice during Naruto first 4 tail transformation.


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## CharLots (Apr 6, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> In my personal opinion NaruSaku is supposed to be revealed through all manga/anime series and that's the reason why they're not already pair. From hate through friendship and finally to love. Sasuke and Hinata plots are done to enrich whole storyline and Naruto-Sakura relations so it won't be simple way of feelings and more interesting also.



Sorry, just had to butt in ^^

I think that whether one thinks NaruHina, NaruSaku or SasuSaku will happen, it's just a clear disregard for what _Naruto_ is all about to say that the "Sasuke plot" is simply meant to "enrich" the series and serve the purpose of the ultimate romantic pairing. This is a shonen, not a shoujo. Whatever pairing becomes canon - and I speak as a NaruHina and SasuSaku fan - it definitely won't take up a lot of panels (I'm not even sure we'll get much more than a hint of a kiss) and will become a background to Naruto continuing to fight for Konoha and getting Sasuke back. 

Sasuke and Naruto's friendship, the emulation to get stronger, the possibility of proving yourself worthy even if your personal history makes it seem impossible: those are the main themes of the series, and any romance will simply have to fit in there or get the hell out.


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## Miss Happy (Apr 6, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> In my personal opinion NaruSaku is supposed to be revealed through all manga/anime series and that's the reason why they're not already pair. From hate through friendship and finally to love. *Sasuke and Hinata plots are done to enrich whole storyline and Naruto-Sakura relations so it won't be simple way of feelings and more interesting also.*Sakura hitting lessons are for joke and to keep Naruto in order. As dictum says - "The quarrels of lovers are the renewal of love". And after conffesion I can say that Hinata will become his best friend, they will eventually meet often, talk more etc. *And after 442 chapter in my opinion Sakura will be jealous and start to think a little more seriously about her feelings for Naruto. Btw the sacrifice made by Hinata is easilly compared to *Sakura sacrifice during Naruto first 4 tail transformation.


whaa......:amazed

​
this is how you want it to be but it's not!
Naruto manga it's not about narusaku!It's not about naruhina or sasusaku neither!
from what you wrote i understood that you think  sasuke is there only to enrich the bond between naruto and sakura...
I don't want to offend you but you got it all wrong!

As for the naruhina thing...
I dislike sakura 
but i don't have such  a bad impression of her to think taht she will lower to such a base spiritual level...and starts having  a cat fight with hinata over naruto!
I don't see her doing that not even with karin so...again you got it very very wrong...Sakura it's not that kind of person ...and she's not in love with naruto and probably she'll never be... 


CharLots said:


> Sasuke and Naruto's friendship, the emulation to get stronger, the possibility of proving yourself worthy even if your personal history makes it seem impossible: those are the main themes of the series, and any romance will simply have to fit in there or get the hell out.


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## Kathutet (Apr 6, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> this is how you want it to be but it's not!
> 
> *Is that coming from a SasuSaku fan? *
> 
> ...



Well, I partially agree.


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## Miss Happy (Apr 6, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Well, I partially agree.



so after all  that laughing teh final conclusion is that i'm right!
thank you for your support!
but don't do that again i'm your natural enemy


*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't mind narusaku taht much anymore cos sasuke doesn't really need them more than friends...naruto and sakura will always be just his friends! 
if naruto will fall  in love with sakura and sakura with naruto then there is nothing  i can do about it...i'll just accept it...but i do not want sasu-kun to be alone even if narusaku will happen...he needs someone to love him cos he needs love!
as i said sasuke will probably marry when he will be 30 years old or even later
-if he won't die by then-so he has time to find a very cute girl(i want her to be the cutest from the series!) who can truly match my expectations! 
until that miracle happends i ship sasusakupek


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## Kathutet (Apr 6, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> so after all  that laughing teh final conclusion is that i'm right!
> thank you for your support!
> but don't do that again i'm your natural enemy


Actually;





Kitsune Naruto said:


> Well, I *partially* agree.





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You seem to be a realistic fan. I appreciate that and I fully agree with all of this.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 6, 2009)

Seriously you guys...lol.

Those who think Sakura can't fall in love with Naruto are delusionary. Those who think she can't love Naruto just as a friend are exaggerating. Those who think Naruto loves Sakura the most are SERIOUSLY exaggerating. Those who think Hinata's feelings for Naruto are more significant than others' are wishful-thinkers. Those who think Sasuke loves Sakura deep down are hallucinating. /my opinion

Speaking with just opinions really doesn't get us anywhere.


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## mystic868 (Apr 6, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> whaa......:amazed
> 
> this is how you want it to be but it's not!
> Naruto manga it's not about narusaku!It's not about naruhina or sasusaku neither!
> ...



I know it's not mainly about feelings and romances but it is hardly mixed within main plot(sasuke case). I just watched most important in my opinion moments of anime and I can say that some romance will eventually occure. Maybe with Hinata(but not for now), maybe with Sakura(not for now too) or maybe Naruto will remain alone Hokage


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## The Duchess (Apr 6, 2009)

Sorry for taking such a long time to respond. I guess I sort of lost the enthusiasm for quick responses. 



kubik said:


> LOLWUT?! You speak about double standards using THIS example?
> I still remember how according to NS Hinata only admired Naruto.


*shrug* I believed it was only admiration because we had hardly seen Hinata at all in Part 2 (during which she stuttered and fainted once) and during Part 1, she said she wanted him around and was inspired by him, so it didn't strike to me as love. That's _my_ reason, anyway. And frankly, there wasn't any blatant signs for it, like what you guys are asking for when it comes to NS. So why should I have believed that Hinata full-on loved Naruto?



kubik said:


> Be serious about them. Yes Im referring to chapter called 'nicknames' That comical atmosphere that is there almost everytime isn't helping in taking them serious too.


Could you give me a link to that chapter, please?

Anyway, some of the scenes with Naruto's feelings might be used for comic relief, but _they're there_. He didn't want Sakura to worry about him at all when she found out Naruto would die if the Kyuubi gets extracted, etc.

Whenever I ask for someone to give a straight-up example of what they want Naruto to be serious about his feelings, I never get a straight answer. Why is that?



kubik said:


> *I am fully aware that Naruto loves Sakura.*
> But like I said many times in the past, Kishi made him realise that Sakura loves Sasuke for a reason.


So if you know that Naruto loves Sakura, why do you say that Naruto needs to be serious about his feelings with Sakura? I'd say being in love is pretty serious.

Yes, Naruto realized that Sakura loved Sasuke. I personally believe it was a part of both Naruto's and Sakura's development. Remember this?

[2]

Sakura used to think that Naruto would do anything to destroy her love life. After the PoaL, she realizes the exact opposite, that he was always there for her.

In the early stages of the manga, Naruto was most likely to say “No, I'd rather not save Sasuke 'cause that means I'd have you for myself” (not exactly like that, but you get what I mean). But after realizing what Sasuke meant to Sakura, he realized that her happiness should come before hers, that her wants were more important than his. He grew up.



moonjump05 said:


> The moon is the same that appeared during chapter 181 when she confessed- it's a direct visual link to that scene.  Her reactions were more of shock, transfixtion, worry, anxiety from when she first saw him again and when they were searching for him later.  Again, these aren't proofs of her love- that's her confession.  But rather signs that she still harbors those feelings.


Not necessarily. That's up to the reader's interpretation.

Yes, she was reflecting on her confession. Maybe it was a sign that she was confronting the idea of falling out of love with Sasuke, or realizing that she was having conflicted feelings for the two boys. The anime clearly shows this. It even has Yamato's line of “It's not what you do for Naruto that counts, it's what you feel for him that matters” in echoing in Sakura's head.

Before I get jumped for mentioning the anime, I just to point out that the anime team adds specific details to more clearly point out a scene in the manga. If Kishi didn't want the idea of Sakura mulling over the idea of falling for Naruto instead of Sasuke to come across in that scene (in the anime), I'm pretty sure he had the power to tell the anime team to cut out all the extra stuff they added. Yet those details are still there. Why?



moonjump05 said:


> And I'm smelling a straw man.  I never said that Sakura's feelings couldn't fade- only that I saw nothing to make me think they had.


That's more or less what I said you said. You think that Sakura's feelings have not faded. 



moonjump05 said:


> I've never said that his romantic feelings for her are completely gone- I've said that they are not serious.  Naruto doesn't take them seriously, Kishi never bothers to portray them in a serious light.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, Naruto's got an arrow to Sakura in the newest databook. I'm pretty sure they've been proven to be serious now.






moonjump05 said:


> If Naruto were truly serious in his feelings, then I would expect more from him than what I've seen so far.


My take on the NS development is that in Part 1, we realize how Naruto and the lengths of his devotion to her. Part 2 is when the ball's in Sakura's court. It's when Sakura starts to realize that she just could be falling for Naruto. There's no need to have a jillion serious moments with Naruto, because we already know he loves her. We just need a resolution to Sakura's feelings. That's what really determines the outcome of NS.



moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> With NaruHina we will have to wait a few chapters before we can definitively say that there is nothing from Naruto's side- however we do get him thinking about her clutching his chest above his heart and crying in relief that she isn't dead.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata, along with the rest of the village. Besides, hasn't Sakura cried for Naruto? Naruto for Gaara? Sasuke for Itachi? Naruto for Jiraiya? Iruka for Naruto? And hundreds of other times? Why should this moment, out of all the others, be the romantic one?

“I'm glad I didn't kill her” shouldn't translate into “I'm glad Hinata's in love with me so that we can get started on re-creating the Uzumaki clan” 






moonjump05 said:


> I already posted my reasons for thinking that Naruto's interest in Sakura has faded.  If you want to debate those then be more specific.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Again, check the databook. Usually I wouldn't use this for debate so much, but you were one of the people who used the databook to promote NH, so...


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## moonjump05 (Apr 7, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> Not necessarily. That's up to the reader's interpretation.
> 
> Yes, she was reflecting on her confession. Maybe it was a sign that she was confronting the idea of falling out of love with Sasuke, or realizing that she was having conflicted feelings for the two boys. The anime clearly shows this. It even has Yamato's line of ?It's not what you do for Naruto that counts, it's what you feel for him that matters? in echoing in Sakura's head.
> 
> Before I get jumped for mentioning the anime, I just to point out that the anime team adds specific details to more clearly point out a scene in the manga. If Kishi didn't want the idea of Sakura mulling over the idea of falling for Naruto instead of Sasuke to come across in that scene (in the anime), I'm pretty sure he had the power to tell the anime team to cut out all the extra stuff they added. Yet those details are still there. Why?



It's all interpretation it seems like.  I didn't see a thing in that scene to suggest that Sakura was conflicted about her romantic feelings or falling out of love of Sasuke.  I saw a lot of dissapointment and sadness, feelings tied to their failure mission and her inability to bring back Sasuke.
As for the anime- I never watched that particular scene.  If that's what did echo then it probably tied to her sitting there feeling sorry for herself on being unable to bring back Sasuke again.  How she couldn't do anything for Naruto to help bring back Sasuke yet again.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Well, Naruto's got an arrow to Sakura in the newest databook. I'm pretty sure they've been proven to be serious now.



In DB3?  Where?



> My take on the NS development is that in Part 1, we realize how Naruto and the lengths of his devotion to her. Part 2 is when the ball's in Sakura's court. It's when Sakura starts to realize that she just could be falling for Naruto. There's no need to have a jillion serious moments with Naruto, because we already know he loves her. We just need a resolution to Sakura's feelings. That's what really determines the outcome of NS.



In part 1, Naruto is way more concerned with his rivalry with Sasuke/his foil Gaara/Training/ramen than gaining Sakura's romantic love.  Aside from a few early advances from him, what is there?  For someone devoted, he pays very little attention to Sakura.
This doesn't read like love to me.

Then in part 2, Sakura does learn to appreciate and care for Naruto.  And still cries over a picture of Sasuke.  Still is fixated on finding him.

I just don't see it because there is already resolution on each of their feelings.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Again, nothing definitive.  But he didn't forget about her either like some speculated.  







> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Again, check the databook. Usually I wouldn't use this for debate so much, but you were one of the people who used the databook to promote NH, so...



DB3?  Like I said no arrow from Naruto to Sakura no mention of her romantically in his profile or him in hers.


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## mystic868 (Apr 7, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





EarthBenderGal said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you please tell me where exactly is that arrow for Sakura? I want to read about it more 

BTW I found this(from 3 databook)



> A strong-willed, red haired Kunoichi who sees her dream for the future through the life she carries.
> 
> Main text: A former Kunoichi from the Uzu no kuni, she's the woman who gave birth to Naruto. In the gruesome girlhood's upheavals of wars Kushina went through, she was looking for one thing, a daily "peace" that appease the heart. *Kushina'd had a child with her lifelong companion*, she got what should had been her peace.



It's about Naruto's mother and in that text it looks like Minato was her lifelong companion - looks familiar?


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## Chippy (Apr 7, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



EarthBendergal's just mentioned the wrong thing. She means the relationship chart in the newly released handbook.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 7, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It's all interpretation it seems like.  I didn't see a thing in that scene to suggest that Sakura was conflicted about her romantic feelings or falling out of love of Sasuke.  I saw a lot of dissapointment and sadness, feelings tied to their failure mission and her inability to bring back Sasuke.
> As for the anime- I never watched that particular scene.  If that's what did echo then it probably tied to her sitting there feeling sorry for herself on being unable to bring back Sasuke again.  How she couldn't do anything for Naruto to help bring back Sasuke yet again.



...

Her inability to bring back SASUKE [and their mission failure]?

In that scene it's about her inability to not do enough for _Naruto_. As an Anti-NaruSaku fan I find these affirmations just insulting to Naruto and Sakura, cos not everything between them is about how much they love the sauce. For instance the 'confidence issues' is seriously the worst case of strawman pony in pairing debates I've ever seen.

About Sakura being concerned about how she can't help Naruto bring Sasuke back again I agree, but the extent it regards Naruto's well-being is undeniable. She doesn't smile with his encouragement, worry about him, become emphasizedly motivated, cry, run to KN4, feel admiration, scoot towards him to feed him ramen, cos she loves Sasuke. You cannot prove she doesn't love him when everything says the opposite. The only thing that's arguable is the romantic placement of her feelings.


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## phoenixblood (Apr 7, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ...
> 
> Her inability to bring back SASUKE [and their mission failure]?
> 
> ...



Really?  I thought the chapter was all about Naruto and Sakura's emotional reaction to failing to bring back Sasuke and what he means to each of them since the chapter was called, "The Source of Determination" - namely Sasuke.

As far as Sakura's lack of confidence in her contributions to her team - that's been a staple since pre-chuunin exam.  Sasuke first chastised her for being lower than Naruto, followed by she thinks she's not good enough to enter the chuunin exam, to the FoD speech of no longer wanting to watch their backs, to being left to beg Naruto to bring Sasuke back, to being encouraged by Naruto's never-give-up attitude to train under Tsunade to pull her share of the weight in bringing Sasuke back, so Sakura frequently talking about going after Sasuke "together" (in other words, not just rely on Naruto like she did toward the end of Part 1).

And the infamous chapter 297 conversation started with Sakura saying "I can only do the smallest things for Naruto" - namely, she feels she doesn't *do* enough to contribute, the basis of her character development since nearly the beginning of the series.

I don't understand Sakura feeling like she doesn't *do* enough for those she cares about is such an out there concept, but a commander stopping to play matchmaker is presumably more realistic?  That Yamato would take time to comment on romantic feelings rather than give the ever so common advice of 'it's the thought that count' (It's not so much what you *do* for Naruto, but rather your thoughts and feelings behind it - I know I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist, emphasis mine).  See how it's a natural progression of Sakura feeling inadequate in what she does, and the response being what really counts is that she cares and tries rather than what she actually can do.

As someone who suffers from the exact same obstacle of self-esteem, this is the most natural interpretation for a character I can relate to.  But other people see it as romantic implications - which it could still be a part of even by the interpretation I explained if the context is someone you're in love with.  I just don't think that's the case because for me, Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were illustrated too much, and that she made the offer of her feelings to Sasuke at his departure which, structurally speaking, should be something that is solid and carried over until Sasuke returns for its (in this positive and full of hope series, very likely positive) resolution.  But that's getting into a different argument.


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## Miss Happy (Apr 7, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





mystic868 said:


> It's about Naruto's mother and in that text it looks like Minato was her lifelong companion - looks familiar?


probably...nobody can tell it...
lifelong companions can be seen in more than one way...




yes you don't have to tell me...i'm a genius


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 7, 2009)

phoenixblood said:


> Really?  I thought the chapter was all about Naruto and Sakura's emotional reaction to failing to bring back Sasuke and what he means to each of them since the chapter was called, "The Source of Determination" - namely Sasuke.



Who was talking about that chapter? And to be blunt, it was only specified with Naruto that Sasuke made him determined. For both Sakura and Naruto the motivation is their Team too, and assumptions don't do much in proving love interest.



> As far as Sakura's lack of confidence in her contributions to her team - that's been a staple since pre-chuunin exam.  Sasuke first chastised her for being lower than Naruto, followed by she thinks she's not good enough to enter the chuunin exam, to the FoD speech of no longer wanting to watch *their* backs,



See the last sentence you wrote? Her effort to not watch their backs is never referred to Sasuke alone let alone out of romantic interest.



> to being left to beg Naruto to bring Sasuke back, to being encouraged by Naruto's never-give-up attitude to train under Tsunade to pull her share of the weight in bringing Sasuke back, so Sakura frequently talking about going after Sasuke "together" (in other words, not just rely on Naruto like she did toward the end of Part 1).



Getting Sasuke back together is obviously because instead of being able to do something she had to rely on Naruto. All I'm saying is that she goes to a special extent for Naruto that the goal of getting back the person in question cannot deny.



> And the infamous chapter 297 conversation started with Sakura saying "I can only do the smallest things for Naruto" - namely, she feels she doesn't *do* enough to contribute, the basis of her character development since nearly the beginning of the series.



ERR...you're forgetting that this is about her and Naruto. If I feel like giving a flying rat's ass about what her theme is then I'll go straight to the fact SasuSaku did a lot to pull her backwards compared to NaruSaku.



> I don't understand Sakura feeling like she doesn't *do* enough for those she cares about is such an out there concept, but a commander stopping to play matchmaker is presumably more realistic?  That Yamato would take time to comment on romantic feelings rather than give the ever so common advice of 'it's the thought that count' (It's not so much what you *do* for Naruto, but rather your thoughts and feelings behind it - I know I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist, emphasis mine). *See how it's a natural progression of Sakura feeling inadequate in what she does, and the response being what really counts is that she cares and tries rather than what she actually can do*.



Where did I say that I disagreed with this interpretation? Taking the value of something away with a lame thematic excuse like "confidence issues" is not like merely thinking it's not romantic.



> As someone who suffers from the exact same obstacle of self-esteem, this is the most natural interpretation for a character I can relate to.  But other people see it as romantic implications - which it could still be a part of even by the interpretation I explained if the context is someone you're in love with.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Maybe you'd sound more believable if Sakura wasn't visually saddened at how Hinata [out of romantic love as it's implied] could do so much for Naruto.





> I just don't think that's the case because for me, Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were illustrated too much,



 and those for Naruto weren't!? She thanked Naruto, and apparently 'thank you's' mean everything to SasuSaku.



> and that she made the offer of her feelings to Sasuke at his departure which, structurally speaking, should be something that is solid and carried over until Sasuke returns for its (in this positive and full of hope series, very likely positive) resolution.  But that's getting into a different argument.



Not everyone thinks SasuSaku is like a rock and demands resolution [...]. Just look at it in comparison to SasuNaru, which is 'just brotherly' 

You can hope as much as you like. But assuming that with a confession your pairing is set out in stone compared to development and a relationship far more stressed upon in more than one way, fails to prove ANYTHING except mere chance imo. I guess we can just disagree.


----------



## JERITROLL (Apr 7, 2009)

For those that were referencing the new databook - pamphlet that was just released in last weeks jump, here's the chart. 



Consider this an expansion to DB3, as it doesn't seem to include some lines from DB3.... Anyways, although the databooks shouldn't be taken as pure fact, it does tell us that Naruto still has something for Sakura AS OF NOW. This could change at any moment (though I doubt it), so again, Manga will always be > than Databook charts. 

Anyhow, I'll leave now, seeing as I really don't have anything else really worth mentioning ATM...


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 7, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> Consider this an expansion to DB3, as it doesn't seem to include some lines from DB3.... Anyways, although the databooks shouldn't be taken as pure fact, it does tell us that Naruto still has something for Sakura AS OF NOW. This could change at any moment (though I doubt it), so again, Manga will always be > than Databook charts.
> 
> Anyhow, I'll leave now, seeing as I really don't have anything else really worth mentioning ATM...



Databooks are bullshit plain and simple. Take what your statement was for example.

"It does tell us that Naruto still has something for Sakura as of now."

This is erroneous. Because if that was the case, Sakura still likes Sasuke romantically, and Ino apparently still likes Sasuke romantically, and Hinata platonically idolizes Naruto as stated in DB3.  This is the main problem with Databooks and charts in that they give out static information that can be ill placed and thrown out at a moments notice. The only thing we really have to go on in regards to Naruto's feelings, is the manga itself.


----------



## phoenixblood (Apr 7, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Databooks are bullshit plain and simple. Take what your statement was for example.
> 
> "It does tell us that Naruto still has something for Sakura as of now."
> 
> This is erroneous. Because if that was the case, Sakura still likes Sasuke romantically, and Ino apparently still likes Sasuke romantically, and Hinata platonically idolizes Naruto as stated in DB3.  This is the main problem with Databooks and charts in that they give out static information that can be ill placed and thrown out at a moments notice. The only thing we really have to go on in regards to Naruto's feelings, is the manga itself.



First - it's not yet clear or proven that Sakura _doesn't_ still like Sasuke romantically.

Second - Ino no longer had the "suki" arrow to Sasuke.  Doesn't hurt to double check before posting claims.

Third - it is a misconception that Hinata "akogare"-ing Naruto means she only has platonic feelings for him.  Both by the fact that her admiration for him is the more defining feature so even if the word could only be used in a platonic manner, which it can also imply a crush/feelings for someone.  And if you don't want to trust my Japanese knowledge, how about the fact that BOTH "akogare" and "suki" (as well as "koi wo suru") are all used within her one entry.  Therefore, admiration and love are not mutually exclusive with the term "akogare".

Claiming the databooks, or the relationship chart, erroneous is based on what exactly?  Are Sakura and Ino not rivals?  Is Jiraiya not Naruto's teacher?  Are Yondy and Kushina not Naruto's family?  Are Sasuke and Itachi not brothers?

Granted, the databooks can be misused, but so can any line taken from the manga out of context and/or with falsely added significance.  Or even just any line in the manga that's meant for hype.  Just use some common sense when pulling info from the databooks and I've had no trouble lining them up with the manga.

*@ izzy -* I'll have to get to your response later.


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## The Duchess (Apr 7, 2009)

moonjump05 said:


> It's all interpretation it seems like.  I didn't see a thing in that scene to suggest that Sakura was conflicted about her romantic feelings or falling out of love of Sasuke.  I saw a lot of dissapointment and sadness, feelings tied to their failure mission and her inability to bring back Sasuke.


So how would that constitute as romantic, SS-wise? Wasn't Naruto just as disappointed, if not more?



moonjump05 said:


> As for the anime- I never watched that particular scene.  If that's what did echo then it probably tied to her sitting there feeling sorry for herself on being unable to bring back Sasuke again.  How she couldn't do anything for Naruto to help bring back Sasuke yet again.


“It's not what you do for Naruto that counts, it's what your feelings that matter.”

Not seeing the connection to Sasuke here.



mystic868 said:


> Can you please tell me where exactly is that arrow for Sakura? I want to read about it more






moonjump05 said:


> In DB3?  Where?


As Chippy pointed out, I was referring to the wrong DB. I mean the newest mini-DB that came with last week's chapter.

Like several other people have mentioned, I wouldn't solely depend on that chart for proof, Naruto's actions in the manga is what really what counts. But since a lot of people weren't convince of Naruto's feelings because of the lack of suki arrow, there ya go.



moonjump05 said:


> In part 1, Naruto is way more concerned with his rivalry with Sasuke/his foil Gaara/Training/ramen than gaining Sakura's romantic love.  Aside from a few early advances from him, what is there?  For someone devoted, he pays very little attention to Sakura.
> This doesn't read like love to me.


I guess fighting tooth and nail against Gaara (something Sasuke pointed out for Sakura), saying stuff like “I have to defeat him to save Sakura-chan”, and almost dying because of that fight doesn't count as devotion. Nor does promising to save Sasuke for Sakura even though he himself has feelings for her.

After all that, how did Hinata's love compare? She hadn't done anything for him except give him that talk before his fight with Neji. You somehow saw love from her, didn't you? Why didn't you see anything from Naruto?



moonjump05 said:


> Then in part 2, Sakura does learn to appreciate and care for Naruto.  And still cries over a picture of Sasuke.  Still is fixated on finding him.


As is Naruto.

Still not seeing how crying over a photo with the entire Team 7 means she still has feelings for Sasuke. That's the key word here, Team 7. Sasuke wasn't the only one in that photo. The most realistic interpretation from that scene was that she misses the old Team 7 days.



moonjump05 said:


> I just don't see it because there is already resolution on each of their feelings.


No, there hasn't been. We haven't been given anything to show that Naruto's given up on Sakura. Sakura still hasn't been clear on her feelings for Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke hasn't shown feelings for anybody.

Nothing's been resolved, nothing.


moonjump05 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Again, nothing definitive.  But he didn't forget about her either like some speculated.



*Spoiler*: __ 



I may be anti-NH and not a huge fan of Hinata herself, but even I think it's ridiculous that Naruto would forget about Hinata. She told him she loves him, I don't think he's gonna forget her right away.

Besides, people have also speculated that Sakura's going to become some NH matchmaker based on her comment in the last chapter. So I would take other people's speculations with a grain of salt.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 7, 2009)

phoenixblood said:


> *@ izzy -* I'll have to get to your response later.



Sure. But please, for the sake of my sanity, don't forget that I think Sakura still can have romantic interest in Sasuke and that her feelings [albeit strong] for Naruto aren't all that romantic. I just prefer to dwell on things that are actually _suggested_ and not just assumed.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 7, 2009)

phoenixblood said:


> First - it's not yet clear or proven that Sakura _doesn't_ still like Sasuke romantically.



I'm going by the NS point of view when i say that(in which Sakura is not romantically involved with Sasuke and instead holds romantic feelings for Naruto), its an example, not a fact. 



> Second - Ino no longer had the "suki" arrow to Sasuke.  Doesn't hurt to double check before posting claims.



Never said Ino in reference to DB3, i was referring to the 2nd databook in which ino's passion for Sasuke would "never falter".



> Third - it is a misconception that Hinata "akogare"-ing Naruto means she only has platonic feelings for him.  Both by the fact that her admiration for him is the more defining feature so even if the word could only be used in a platonic manner, which it can also imply a crush/feelings for someone.  And if you don't want to trust my Japanese knowledge, how about the fact that BOTH "akogare" and "suki" (as well as "koi wo suru") are all used within her one entry.  Therefore, admiration and love are not mutually exclusive with the term "akogare".



Idolization is what was put there. If your going to resort to arguing semantics with me such as "yearn for", when it just as easily would have been the same thing to put down what everyone else had in response to their romantic interest, your wasting your time. 



> Claiming the databooks, or the relationship chart, erroneous is based on what exactly?  Are Sakura and Ino not rivals?  Is Jiraiya not Naruto's teacher?  Are Yondy and Kushina not Naruto's family?  Are Sasuke and Itachi not brothers?



Is the databook not static information that can change at a moments notice? Is not the information incorrectly or melodramatically overstated in many cases? Is it not fact that much information is not shown or referenced to?

Your not seriously trying to agrue against this are you?



> Granted, the databooks can be misused, but so can any line taken from the manga out of context and/or with falsely added significance.  Or even just any line in the manga that's meant for hype.  Just use some common sense when pulling info from the databooks and I've had no trouble lining them up with the manga.



Scenes are taken out of context by anyone in every situation, this is what it means to have opinions is it not? I'm not talking about that, i'm referring to the *fact*, that many facts in said book being unusable in debate or even credible in many cases because of their static inconsistency. That has nothing to do with one's point of view.


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## gabzilla (Apr 7, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Databooks are bullshit plain and simple. Take what your statement was for example.



Databooks and Kishimoto are wrong. 



Inuhanyou said:


> "It does tell us that Naruto still has something for Sakura as of now."
> 
> This is erroneous. Because if that was the case, Sakura still likes Sasuke romantically, and Ino apparently still likes Sasuke romantically, and Hinata platonically idolizes Naruto as stated in DB3.  This is the main problem with Databooks and charts in that they give out static information that can be ill placed and thrown out at a moments notice. The only thing we really have to go on in regards to Naruto's feelings, is the manga itself.



Eh... static information that then is updated with the next databook. Just like Ino, Lee and Hinata's feelings were updated in the new Databook (Hinata still likes Naruto, Ino doesn't like Sasuke anymore, Lee's crush has disappeared). Just like something that is stated in the manga is a fact until proven otherwise. 

The difference is that the manga updates faster because the chapters are released on a weekly basis, while the databook is released every once in a while.

Seriously, this must be the only fandom that claims the _official guide_ of the show is bullshit.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 7, 2009)

^ Misconception gabzy, there's no need to bring the entire NS fandom into it, this is just how i view the databooks. 

Even you yourself, why would you defend said databooks when twilight posted such a chart which negates what you believe in that Naruto does not like Sakura in a serious romantic manner?

That's exactly what i'm saying though, even if the charts and whatever are updated to conform to the manga, that's still a static timeline in between said update in which you can only guess at if said information is still valid, what's the point of basing said opinion on a booklet instead of the series?? Do ya get what i'm trying to say or am i going off on a tangent here


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## phoenixblood (Apr 7, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Who was talking about that chapter? And to be blunt, it was only specified with Naruto that Sasuke made him determined. For both Sakura and Naruto the motivation is their Team too, and assumptions don't do much in proving love interest.



moonjump05 and EarthBenderGal were.  Ok, let me go back and trace the convo:



izzyisozaki said:


> moonjump05 said:
> 
> 
> > EarthBenderGal said:
> ...



They were talking about chapter 319, and EarthBenderGal referenced the convo in 297 as the anime flashed back to it (but not the manga).

As for what you say "bluntly" - I disagree.  I think there was a parallel connection structure between Naruto and Sakura that implies they were both thinking of Sasuke in their respective places.  And just for some additional visual support, as what was already brought up - the crescent moon is emphasized on Sakura's contemplation, which is the same moon as what was clearly shown during their last conversation in 181.

Which for anyone who thinks something like the moon is inconsequential, the Japanese pay more attention to such things in nature than we do in the West, and as further evidence, in one chapter Sasuke specifically references the moon on the night of his family's massacre.  So things like the moon can be of referential note.

Also, Sakura has one tear streak (where usually she is shown with two), and it happens to be on Sasuke's side of the photo.

These are just other little details that I think adds to concept that Sakura is thinking of Sasuke specifically and not 'simply' the old days of Team 7 in general.  I'm not saying this has to be romantic, but it doesn't hurt the idea of Sakura *retaining* previously established feelings.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> See the last sentence you wrote? Her effort to not watch their backs is never referred to Sasuke alone let alone out of romantic interest.



I'm not the one arguing for a romantic interpretation.  My case was for a platonic one, so why would the support for my interpretation be based in romance for Sasuke? 



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Getting Sasuke back together is obviously because instead of being able to do something she had to rely on Naruto. All I'm saying is that she goes to a special extent for Naruto that the goal of getting back the person in question cannot deny.



And I disagree - while Sakura does care about Naruto greatly, we seem to more get fierce emotional outbursts related to Sasuke.

A Few Examples:
Chapter 267
Chapter 286

And with the previously established romantic feelings for Sasuke, this leads me to believe that her care for Naruto is strong, but platonic, and that her romantic feelings for Sasuke are unchanged.  If not for Sakura's previously established romantic feelings, I would not claim these as romantic evidence.  But established context/bonds makes a difference for me to categorize her actions of concern and attention toward the boys due to a lack of established change but rather, continued intensity.

To effectively show Sakura falling for Naruto, we should also be seeing signs of Sakura's intensity for Sasuke lessoning, or some kind of change to clue the reader in that while Sakura still cares strongly for Sasuke (because that's not changing - Team 7), the romantic tension is no longer there.  Please share evidence of this if there's something I have missed.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> ERR...you're forgetting that this is about her and Naruto. If I feel like giving a flying rat's ass about what her theme is then I'll go straight to the fact SasuSaku did a lot to pull her backwards compared to NaruSaku.



So a character's theme of development is irrelevant in interpreting said character's actions and speech?  Are you being serious?  I am asking for real.

And feel free to list scenes where SasuSaku pulled Sakura's development backwards and I believe I will be able to show a scene in the same arc that is positive development for Sakura.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Where did I say that I disagreed with this interpretation? Taking the value of something away with a lame thematic excuse like "confidence issues" is not like merely thinking it's not romantic.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Well, I didn't think I was taking away the value of a scene by thinking it fits with a character's development progression.  Just because something is not romantic doesn't mean it has no or less value.  For example - the Gai/Lee bond is student-teacher, and yet it is very strong and unbreakable, to the point where Gai will die along with Lee should his surgery have gone wrong.  They are completely dedicated and connected, and yet not romantic.  I don't devalue the bond between Naruto and Sakura simply because I don't see romance between them.

And thanks for calling my honest impression a pathetic excuse.  It's always good to reminded how easy it is for people to devalue one's opinion because they don't see it the same and/or understand where it comes from.  What I explained is exactly what I read when I read the raw for that chapter, not some twisted interpretation I came up with to deny something I didn't want to acknowledge.  I could care less about canon - I'm not going to delude myself when I'm perfectly capable of liking what I like whether it ever becomes canon or not.


*Spoiler*: _manga spoilers_ 



Maybe if I was convinced Sakura was upset that someone else loved Naruto.  I'm waiting to see more in the subsequent chapters before making a final conclusion.




_To be continued....._


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## phoenixblood (Apr 7, 2009)

izzy said:
			
		

> and those for Naruto weren't!? She thanked Naruto, and apparently 'thank you's' mean everything to SasuSaku.



Please give specific examples, but I have yet to see something between Naruto and Sakura that implies a romantic context to me.  And to clarify - I don't take most of the "SasuSaku" development as specifically romantic either.  But it's had enough specifically romantic - especially at the crucial time period Team 7 breaking - that left me defining the SasuSaku bond as potentially romantic.  Context is everything in a manga that highlights care and strength of bonds between _everyone_.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Not everyone thinks SasuSaku is like a rock and demands resolution [...]. Just look at it in comparison to SasuNaru, which is 'just brotherly'
> 
> You can hope as much as you like. But assuming that with a confession your pairing is set out in stone compared to development and a relationship far more stressed upon in more than one way, fails to prove ANYTHING except mere chance imo. I guess we can just disagree.



It's not 'just a confession', but the placement of said confession in the story.  It is the final interaction between Sasuke and Sakura before Sasuke leaves Konoha and they will face each other as enemies.  Thus, that last interaction should be defining and the context in which the bond will later be resolved and reformed.

You may not believe Sasuke and Naruto are 'merely' brothers, but considering brotherhood is the strongest bond in the series, and the many, many allusions and parallels to brothers (including to and by Itachi) in Naruto's struggle to bring Sasuke back - that is the context of their bond reforming.  The suspense is not just will Sasuke come back, but will Sasuke come back and finally accept Naruto as his brother (that is not a bond of hatred).  Likewise, Sasuke left Sakura with a romantic offer.  So the suspense is again not just will Sasuke come back, but what will things be like between Sasuke and Sakura then.

Now, being the happy, hopeful series this is, I believe the answers to both of those will be affirmative.  It doesn't have to be.  But structurally speaking, this is where the bonds were left off, and so this is where the bonds should be picked up for resolution for yea or nay from Sasuke.

To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what you're implying with the 'just brotherly' comment except that any strong bond can't possibly be anything but romantic.  Which I think is very clear to not be the case in this series.



Inuhanyou said:


> I'm going by the NS point of view when i say that(in which Sakura is not romantically involved with Sasuke and instead holds romantic feelings for Naruto), its an example, not a fact.



But you were using that "example" as a basis for discrediting the databooks.  You can't say a source is erroneous based on one subjective viewpoint, but only if you can show a concrete contradiction.  Which you thus far have not.



			
				Inu said:
			
		

> Never said Ino in reference to DB3, i was referring to the 2nd databook in which ino's passion for Sasuke would "never falter".



Hmmm, not sure where that translation is from, but I translated it as, "A female's integration of refinement and study!?  She's relentless in the pursuit of gaining Sasuke's affections."

And even if it does say something along the lines of, "She will never falter in her pursuit." - that could just as easily be something a competitive character says in speech, even if they do eventually give up or move on.  For example, Ino swore never lose to Sakura; but Sakura, likewise, was determined to not lose to Ino.  Each claimed to be better than the other  How was this resolved in the manga?  They tied, so they were both right, but they were also both wrong.  Are you going to start claiming that the manga's own dialogue can't be trusted?

Like I said, common sense.



			
				Inu said:
			
		

> Idolization is what was put there. If your going to resort to arguing semantics with me such as "yearn for", when it just as easily would have been the same thing to put down what everyone else had in response to their romantic interest, your wasting your time.



I was explaining semantics for your benefit, but I don't even need to rely on that - how do you explain the use of BOTH "akogare" and clearly romantic wording within the same entry if these are mutually exclusive?  What you claim doesn't make sense if they're both used to describe how Hinata feels about Naruto.  There is no way around that.



			
				Inu said:
			
		

> Is the databook not static information that can change at a moments notice? Is not the information incorrectly or melodramatically overstated in many cases? Is it not fact that much information is not shown or referenced to?
> 
> Your not seriously trying to agrue against this are you?



Gabz already answered this one.



			
				Inu said:
			
		

> Scenes are taken out of context by anyone in every situation, this is what it means to have opinions is it not? I'm not talking about that, i'm referring to the *fact*, that many facts in said book being unusable in debate or even credible in many cases because of their static inconsistency. That has nothing to do with one's point of view.



An opinion is applying what you believe is the context.  Taking things out of context is pointless and rarely going to yield accurate results.

Anyway, I already showed how your examples where the databooks are erroneous have actually not been, so you still have to provide a clear contradiction between the two.


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## gabzilla (Apr 7, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> ^ Misconception gabzy, there's no need to bring the entire NS fandom into it, this is just how i view the databooks.



I was joking.



Inuhanyou said:


> Even you yourself, why would you defend said databooks when twilight posted such a chart which negates what you believe in that Naruto does not like Sakura in a serious romantic manner?



Let's see, databook chart has no suki in the Naruto > Sakura arrow. Mini chart has a suki in the Naruto > Sakura arrow. And no arrow between Naruto and Sasuke. Am I correct?

I'm curious, does the Karin > Sasuke arrow include a suki too? 



Inuhanyou said:


> That's exactly what i'm saying though, even if the charts and whatever are updated to conform to the manga, that's still a static timeline in between said update in which you can only guess at if said information is still valid, what's the point of basing said opinion on a booklet instead of the series?? Do ya get what i'm trying to say or am i going off on a tangent here



Eh, I think that what you just said it's different than saying that the databooks are _filler_.

Databooks, as any guide, have to be read in context with the manga.


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## lynxie (Apr 7, 2009)

There are actually only 3 true facts on the romance.

1. Naruto likes Sakura. (We can be pretty sure he loves her)
2. Sakura said she loves Sasuke. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



3. Hinata said she loves Naruto.




That are the facts, the rest is just what we readers think.

Kishi written every other "romantic" moment in a way you can take as friendship or as romantic.

The biggest problem I have with Naruto x Sakura is that Naruto isn't Sakura's first love. 
Sakura has a lot of devolpment of her love on her side of the story, and as a climax a confession. 

Naruto will always feel as a second choise and that is not good for a main character, I think.

But this is shounen so it could happen... 

I am SasuSaku fan, my second pair was always NaruSaku, but recently it changed to NaruHina. 
Now NaruSaku is on the 3th place for me. 

I lost my hope for SasuSaku, but I doubt Kishi could write a good SasuSaku relationship that I would like, so I guess I must be happy. 

So I support NaruHina and even NaruSaku more then SasuSaku, for that reason.


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## mystic868 (Apr 8, 2009)

Whatever will happen I just wish Naruto to be happy because even if he is stubborn, clumsy sometimes and acting strangely his life was full of pain from the beginning, also he risked his life many times to safe people important for him.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 8, 2009)

phoenixblood said:


> They were talking about chapter 319, and EarthBenderGal referenced the convo in 297 as the anime flashed back to it (but not the manga).



Thanks for clarifying that. I think I got mixed up by the anime references.



> As for what you say "bluntly" - I disagree.  I think there was a parallel connection structure between Naruto and Sakura that implies they were both thinking of Sasuke in their respective places.  And just for some additional visual support, as what was already brought up - the crescent moon is emphasized on Sakura's contemplation, which is the same moon as what was clearly shown during their last conversation in 181.
> 
> Which for anyone who thinks something like the moon is inconsequential, the Japanese pay more attention to such things in nature than we do in the West, and as further evidence, in one chapter Sasuke specifically references the moon on the night of his family's massacre.  So things like the moon can be of referential note.
> 
> Also, Sakura has one tear streak (where usually she is shown with two), and it happens to be on Sasuke's side of the photo.



Do what you want with the moon, even if it has never been referred to [unlike the _full_ moon and obvious symbolic objects like Naruto's necklace] or the fact it has appeared behind Shino and Kakashi on various covers or other contexts ] but you gotta be kidding about using as evidence which side of her face the tear was on. SERIOUSLY. That's just unnecessary. I could go on forever about the various raptures on Naruto's face when in reference to Sasuke or mention how Sasuke was half of his body during Itachi's fear-inducing justu. But I don't.

DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING.



> These are just other little details that I think adds to concept that Sakura is thinking of Sasuke specifically and not 'simply' the old days of Team 7 in general.  I'm not saying this has to be romantic, but it doesn't hurt the idea of Sakura *retaining* previously established feelings.



Such "little details" do nothing for me. They don't foreshadow anything in a significant matter throughout the manga. Even if Sakura can have lingering feelings for Sasuke doesn't mean Naruto can't mean more to her. She was REJECTED. Such memories will hurt. I'm glad you are saying this doesn't have to be romantic, cos it really doesn't hold anything except an impression. Naruto thinks solely about Sasuke numerous times, but we don't get the leisure of assuming god knows what despite of it being 1000 times more explicit and stressed by him and everyone 



> I'm not the one arguing for a romantic interpretation.  My case was for a platonic one, so why would the support for my interpretation be based in romance for Sasuke? : huh



Then why are we even discussing? I thought I told you I don't think Sakura is off of Sasuke in any way but that context is still context.



> And I disagree - while Sakura does care about Naruto greatly, we seem to more get fierce emotional outbursts related to Sasuke.
> 
> A Few Examples:
> Chapter 267



You want to get into FIERCE? Of course she cares about Sasuke.
But you do realize that she does that for Naruto as well/more often and Naruto is ten times more fiercer for Sasuke than she is?



> Chapter 286



I just knew you'd use that. That is arbituary. You are taking a scene that can be easily be taken as neutral, for Naruto, or devoid of significance for SasuSaku itself. Sakura intervened when Sai pushed Naruto's pressure point. Also, when she didn't hit Sai for the second time she said she didn't cos of Naruto expressing how he would put up with the Sai in order to save Sasuke no matter what. And then Sai, after hearing her say so, goes "You are...kind with Naruto, I don't understand why but I read that blabla"

She was utterly focused on Naruto.  As you see at the end of the page 
So yeah. That scene of Sakura punching Sai over Sasuke isn't amazing evidence when she's doing it while standing up for Naruto 
I can gather intense scenes of Sakura going apeshit over Naruto's "honor" as well.



> And with the previously established romantic feelings for Sasuke, this leads me to believe that her care for Naruto is strong, but platonic, and that her romantic feelings for Sasuke are unchanged.  If not for Sakura's previously established romantic feelings, I would not claim these as romantic evidence.  But established context/bonds makes a difference for me to categorize her actions of concern and attention toward the boys due to a lack of established change but rather, continued intensity.



Categorizing can go too far though when you totally disregard the context of assumed "platonic" scenes! Being oblivious due to so-called "established" romance or context is like reading with your eyes closed. Kishimoto develops/changes his characters even if he sticks them into themes.



> To effectively show Sakura falling for Naruto, we should also be seeing signs of *Sakura's intensity for Sasuke lessoning*, or some kind of change to clue the reader in that while Sakura still cares strongly for Sasuke (because that's not changing - Team 7), the romantic tension is no longer there.  Please share evidence of this if there's something I have missed.



Sakura running to KN4 to stop Naruto from going so far to save Sasuke is pretty explicit imo. Sakura matured or truly got to know Naruto in my view so I don't jump to romantic conclusions in regards to that, but I also believe Naruto has become of undeniable importance to her after the Poal/VotE. He assured her in the hospital scene to carry out his promise, and I believe he became of special importance - since, when she went to Tsunade, she had something significant to fight for [a step to self-reliance] that just wasn't Sasuke and what surrounded those feelings.



> So a character's theme of development is irrelevant in interpreting said character's actions and speech?  Are you being serious?  I am asking for real.



No, you're the one who can't be serious. A theme doesn't excuse ambiguous feelings of a character towards another.



> And feel free to list scenes where SasuSaku pulled Sakura's development backwards and I believe I will be able to show a scene in the same arc that is positive development for Sakura.



Are you honestly inviting me to do so? Sasuke didn't make amends for anything he didn't already damage when it comes to general influence [cos team-wise they all collaborated together]. She didn't want to be praised by Kakashi during the tree-climbing chakra training cos she didn't want Sasuke to be angry at her for being better than him . You guys think that his critism towards her prompted her to improve, but then why did he have to make up for it when they went to the Chuunin exams cos she felt discouraged - proving that he didn't stimulate her to improve at all - but made her feel inadequate. He did a nice thing and the boosted her morale - but like hell has Sasuke been a direct postive influence for her development except being determined. He is inside the team concept and the center of her romantic ambitions, SO WHAT if he was able to set an example when Naruto has just as much without him needing to be her love interest? Sasuke inspired Naruto to make progress evidently, this is stated in the manga, the databook - a common fact. Grasping at whatever positive went on between them when they simply managed to be FRIENDS isn't going to impress me when compared to NaruSaku or even NaruHina.



> Well, I didn't think I was taking away the value of a scene by thinking it fits with a character's development progression.  Just because something is not romantic doesn't mean it has no or less value.  For example - the Gai/Lee bond is student-teacher, and yet it is very strong and unbreakable, to the point where Gai will die along with Lee should his surgery have gone wrong.  They are completely dedicated and connected, and yet not romantic.  I don't devalue the bond between Naruto and Sakura simply because I don't see romance between them.



Good.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 8, 2009)

phoenixblood said:


> Please give specific examples, but I have yet to see something between Naruto and Sakura that implies a romantic context to me.  And to clarify - I don't take most of the "SasuSaku" development as specifically romantic either.  But it's had enough specifically romantic - especially at the crucial time period Team 7 breaking - that left me defining the SasuSaku bond as potentially romantic.  Context is everything in a manga that highlights care and strength of bonds between _everyone_.



In Part 1 we see Sakura acknowledging she was wrong about Naruto being a loser [Naruto vs. Kiba], we see her acknowledging that he thinks more about his team than himself [so would raise her hand for him so he wouldn't risk his hokage dream], we see her motivated positively and inspired DIRECTLY by him just being him [after the Neji fight etc.], we see her acknowledging he wasn't set out to make her unhappy and that he always understood her, we see her trust him completely and feel evident relief thanks to him, we see them interacting in a way that will lead to a clearly mutual and positive relationship [minus both of their immaturity].

NaruSaku is as potentially romantic also cos Sasuke sorta failed in being influenced significantly by Sakura  I think she sensed it too [thanks to what she said to Ino during their fight and to Sasuke in the goodbye scene].



> It's not 'just a confession', but the placement of said confession in the story.  It is the final interaction between Sasuke and Sakura before Sasuke leaves Konoha and they will face each other as enemies.  Thus, that last interaction should be defining and the context in which the bond will later be resolved and reformed.



It was pretty much "solved" at the reunion IMO. He had nothing to say to her.



> You may not believe Sasuke and Naruto are 'merely' brothers, but considering brotherhood is the strongest bond in the series, and the many, many allusions and parallels to brothers (including to and by Itachi) in Naruto's struggle to bring Sasuke back - that is the context of their bond reforming.  The suspense is not just will Sasuke come back, but will Sasuke come back and finally accept Naruto as his brother (that is not a bond of hatred).  Likewise, Sasuke left Sakura with a romantic offer.  So the suspense is again not just will Sasuke come back, but what will things be like between Sasuke and Sakura then.



Sasuke does not consider Naruto A BROTHER. He's denied it, and never once in the VotE expressed anything when Naruto tried to compare him to one until he asked him WHY. And Naruto said to Sasuke that he was a bond he had been searching so long that prompted him to acknowledge Naruto as an equal and admit they were connected, bring up the pain of loneliness he would feel in breaking such bond.

I do not think they have a brotherly bond. And the comparisons are so many [Kimimaro/Orochimaru, Sai/unrelated brother, Naruto telling off Itachi, difficult comparison between Orochimaru/Jiraiya by Kakashi] that brotherliness is just an aspect of the relationship imo cos Naruto can't define it adequately or Sasuke want it to influence him. They have so much unresolved they actually have _numerous_ [and clear] significant references to each other. Even NaruSaku gets some of that on a side. That's all I'll say.



> Now, being the happy, hopeful series this is, I believe the answers to both of those will be affirmative.  It doesn't have to be.  But structurally speaking, this is where the bonds were left off, and so this is where the bonds should be picked up for resolution for yea or nay from Sasuke.



Some think that bonds build throughout the story till now in a significant way even if a arguably one-sided and just don't "restart".



> To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what you're implying with the 'just brotherly' comment except that any strong bond can't possibly be anything but romantic.  Which I think is very clear to not be the case in this series.



What I'm saying is that romantic influence is supposed to be important. Just look at Hinata or Sakura. The only person to have influenced Sasuke in a significant emotional way in exception of Itachi confirmed and explicit was Naruto. And not even Naruto, who regards Sakura FAR MORE, can put Sakura before his bond with Sasuke. Get what I'm trying to say now? Sakura doesn't deserve to be with someone that has more eyes for his bestfriend, especially who had more eyes for her well-being than he ever did.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 8, 2009)

> And thanks for calling my honest impression a pathetic excuse.  It's always good to reminded how easy it is for people to devalue one's opinion because they don't see it the same and/or understand where it comes from.  What I explained is exactly what I read when I read the raw for that chapter, not some twisted interpretation I came up with to deny something I didn't want to acknowledge.  I could care less about canon - I'm not going to delude myself when I'm perfectly capable of liking what I like whether it ever becomes canon or not.



Look, being Anti-NaruSaku I can understand an extent at what you're trying to get at - but IMO it's grasping at too many straws and ignoring how reversible that logic is. And saying that "confidence issues" is a _lame thematic excuse_ isn't necessarily aimed at your personal opinion as a whole, it's just my personal opinion that _sometimes_ such considerations really go too far, and I don't see your name written on it to take it personally when I was talking about such general cases.



> *Spoiler*: _manga spoilers_
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if I was convinced Sakura was upset that someone else loved Naruto.  I'm waiting to see more in the subsequent chapters before making a final conclusion.



*Spoiler*: __ 



ME TOO D8




That was long.


----------



## phoenixblood (Apr 8, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Thanks for clarifying that. I think I got mixed up by the anime references.



Np.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Do what you want with the moon, even if it has never been referred to [unlike the _full_ moon and obvious symbolic objects like Naruto's necklace] or the fact it has appeared behind Shino and Kakashi on various covers or other contexts ] but you gotta be kidding about using as evidence which side of her face the tear was on. SERIOUSLY. That's just unnecessary. I could go on forever about the various raptures on Naruto's face when in reference to Sasuke or mention how Sasuke was half of his body during Itachi's fear-inducing justu. But I don't.
> 
> DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING.



Very few woven intricacies can be PROVEN in literature.  That's what makes it so subjective and how different people can come away from the same piece of writing with just as many interpretations.  If you will dismiss anything that is not PROVEN with SOLID FACTS, then I suggest you try debating something less subjective in nature than literary interpretations.

Now, if you're willing to debate various currently valid interpretations, then I am willing to continue.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Such "little details" do nothing for me. They don't foreshadow anything in a significant matter throughout the manga. Even if Sakura can have lingering feelings for Sasuke doesn't mean Naruto can't mean more to her. She was REJECTED. Such memories will hurt. I'm glad you are saying this doesn't have to be romantic, cos it really doesn't hold anything except an impression. Naruto thinks solely about Sasuke numerous times, but we don't get the leisure of assuming god knows what despite of it being 1000 times more explicit and stressed by him and everyone



Naruto was REJECTED by Sasuke as well.  In fact, not only did Sasuke hurt him emotionally, he tried to kill him.  Such memories do hurt, but it doesn't stop neither Naruto NOR SAKURA in their desire to have him back.

If you're going to give a reason for Sakura to move on from Sasuke, then it should be one that's not immediately contradicted multiple times in the manga.

And I don't usually pick up on the "little" visual things so much as the structure of a story (I'm much more left-brained than right).  Those were just added bonuses.  The chapter is titled "Source of Determination".  I gave examples in my previous post of Sasuke also being one of Sakura's sources of determination.  Naruto is linked to Sakura in that chapter, and I think it is rather clear that it is over their shared reflection of Sasuke.  Naruto's the title character so he gets more of a showcase, plus he had something physical to show in his training exercise success.  But the layout of the chapter I think aptly implies that they were both thinking of Sasuke in their own ways.  The extra visuals I mentioned were just added bonus, not the foundation of my interpretation.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Then why are we even discussing? I thought I told you I don't think Sakura is off of Sasuke in any way but that context is still context.



To argue against the romance of one pairing, I don't have to always be arguing for the romance of another in the same scene.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> You want to get into FIERCE? Of course she cares about Sasuke.
> But you do realize that she does that for Naruto as well/more often and Naruto is ten times more fiercer for Sasuke than she is?



I don't argue that Sakura cares just as much for Naruto.  But the topic for debate is in what context (romantic, or platonic) does she feel for each of them.

But I'm curious that you think she's shown more emotional outbursts in relation to Naruto than Sasuke.  Why don't we each take a count and see, hmmm?  But more important than count, though, is what are the context of her feelings, and that is where I feel NaruSaku has yet to be on the winning side.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> I just knew you'd use that. That is arbituary. You are taking a scene that can be easily be taken as neutral, for Naruto, or devoid of significance for SasuSaku itself. Sakura intervened when Sai pushed Naruto's pressure point. Also, when she didn't hit Sai for the second time she said she didn't cos of Naruto expressing how he would put up with the Sai in order to save Sasuke no matter what. And then Sai, after hearing her say so, goes "You are...kind with Naruto, I don't understand why but I read that blabla"
> 
> She was utterly focused on Naruto.  As you see at the end of the page
> So yeah. That scene of Sakura punching Sai over Sasuke isn't amazing evidence when she's doing it while standing up for Naruto
> I can gather intense scenes of Sakura going apeshit over Naruto's "honor" as well.



Then why on page 10 of chatper 286 does Sakura make the threat of "If you bad-mouth Sasuke-kun one more time".  Not "If you upset/anger Naruto one more time"; not even "If you bad-mouth Sasuke-kun in front of Naruto one more time".  She is protective of both now, but if it was just protecting Naruto, she could have stopped prior to punching Sai, or her explanation for the punch and threats of more would be on the subject of Naruto, which they weren't.  Yes, she was concerned about Naruto losing his temper, but her own physical reaction was over Sasuke.

In the scenes that you brought up, yes, she is once again still concerned about Naruto's feelings, but this is what was said:

"I told you that if you bad-mouthed Sasuke-kun once more, I wouldn't hold back...." (notice again, this is about Sasuke)
"But I didn't just do that because of what Naruto just said...that to save Sasuke-kun, he'd even work with someone like you who bad-mouths him." (the justification of her stopping herself is not for Naruto's sake, but following Naruto's example for Sasuke's sake)
"...no matter who you are...to save Sasuke-kun, I won't hurt you." (again, the subject is the goal of saving Sasuke, not protecting Naruto's feelings)

This is why, while I don't deny Sakura does also want to protect Naruto's feelings for Sasuke, she also has a personal stake in this regarding Sasuke herself.

*ran out of time, will continue later.....*


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 8, 2009)

@Phoenix- I'm not denying Sakura having her own motives to react. I'm simply saying that she is heavily driven by Naruto. Why? Cos she is watching something in which she can hardly interfere: the relationship between Sasuke and Naruto. Her bond with Sasuke cannot compare at all, which is why "her source of determination" isn't COMPARABLE to Naruto's, which is WHY she became Tsunade's apprentice fighting for them _both_ and was a step of development - realizing the feelings of those around her.
And the point was that Sai brought up how she was behaving _FOR NARUTO_, and that is why the neutrality arisen from that scene is stronger than you try to imply. You need to follow or consider the context at some point if a character supports it.

I'll answer more next time as well.


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## phoenixblood (Apr 8, 2009)

_Continuation from earlier_



izzyisozaki said:


> Categorizing can go too far though when you totally disregard the context of assumed "platonic" scenes! Being oblivious due to so-called "established" romance or context is like reading with your eyes closed. Kishimoto develops/changes his characters even if he sticks them into themes.



Well, continue to point out where you believe I'm being oblivious and blinding myself due to how I think the manga is structurally laid out.  But I do not think I only look at structure, but each scene in its context, and then look at how it fits in the overall structure.  I argue from both perspectives and it hasn't failed me thus far in predictions.

For example, because of the strong importance of Team 7, and Sasuke having met Kakashi, Sakura, then Naruto on his exit, I will not believe Kakashi is truly dead (and not coming back) without Sasuke having interacted with him in Part 2 or that he will be excluded in his share of Sasuke's redemption (or even the confidence of Sasuke being redeemed) is also born from a structural or thematic perspective.  And so far, nothing has transpired that has fully shaken this belief.  Kishi may for a time make things look dark and grim to create suspense (at least for the younger and more gullible readers), but leaves that little sliver of hope that will be acted upon later in resolving where he left off structurally and thematically.  Which we shall see if I am right in these as they are currently unanswered.

But I don't see myself as blinding myself to the events of the manga, but using a tool to help shine light on it, and not be swept of by misleading suspense.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Sakura running to KN4 to stop Naruto from going so far to save Sasuke is pretty explicit imo. Sakura matured or truly got to know Naruto in my view so I don't jump to romantic conclusions in regards to that, but I also believe Naruto has become of undeniable importance to her after the Poal/VotE. He assured her in the hospital scene to carry out his promise, and I believe he became of special importance - since, when she went to Tsunade, she had something significant to fight for [a step to self-reliance] that just wasn't Sasuke and what surrounded those feelings.



I don't disagree, except that this shows a lessoning of romantic tension/expectation of Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.  There you will have to explain what is so "explicit" to me because I'm afraid I don't see it.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> No, you're the one who can't be serious. A theme doesn't excuse ambiguous feelings of a character towards another.



I don't deny that it is ambiguous, so that's why I turn to the bigger picture to help make sense of the ambiguity.  I would think an over-arcing theme would be applicable in fitting into the bigger picture of that character's development and behavior.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Are you honestly inviting me to do so? Sasuke didn't make amends for anything he didn't already damage when it comes to general influence [cos team-wise they all collaborated together]. She didn't want to be praised by Kakashi during the tree-climbing chakra training cos she didn't want Sasuke to be angry at her for being better than him . You guys think that his critism towards her prompted her to improve, but then why did he have to make up for it when they went to the Chuunin exams cos she felt discouraged - proving that he didn't stimulate her to improve at all - but made her feel inadequate. He did a nice thing and the boosted her morale - but like hell has Sasuke been a direct postive influence for her development except being determined. He is inside the team concept and the center of her romantic ambitions, SO WHAT if he was able to set an example when Naruto has just as much without him needing to be her love interest? Sasuke inspired Naruto to make progress evidently, this is stated in the manga, the databook - a common fact. Grasping at whatever positive went on between them when they simply managed to be FRIENDS isn't going to impress me when compared to NaruSaku or even NaruHina.



This is a debate, right?  I'm going to break down each scene by scene.

- Tree climbing: something Sakura was needed to improve, but that is more her personal development than something negative of the pairing.  Plus she was kind of right in that even Naruto who adored her felt a bit negative having her be so much better than him.

- Sasuke's criticism/compliment: the criticism alone did not drive Sakura to improvement, but it did cause her to take a serious look at herself which was the starting point to her later revelations in the FoD, and later at the end of Part 2.  Sasuke was driven only by harsh criticism and high expectation, and so that is how he treated Naruto and Sakura.  That method, however, works better for Naruto, and at the realization of how it did affect Sakura, Sasuke did take time and passed on credit he could have taken for himself to remedy it.  I don't see this as all negative, especially since it did come out positive and showed they were learning about each other.

Also since you bring in NaruSaku as comparison, notice that Naruto did not even notice Sakura was in a depressed mood to do anything about it.  This isn't necessarily a stumbling block if they should pursue a relationship, but just showing that Sasuke relates to Sakura in ways that Naruto can't (along with Sasuke relates to Naruto in ways Sakura can't, Naruto relates to Sakura in ways Sasuke can't, etc., etc.).  I bring this up more in respect to the idea that SasuSaku is a "negative" bond while the other Team 7 bonds are "positive".  What would be the point of Team 7 if this were the case?  How could this team be a symbol of the strength of bonds if one of them is so weak and destructive?  Rather, I think it is the individual character flaws that are in the process of being worked through that gets used as a excuse to call the bond or relationship itself as "bad".

As far as Naruto being the only inspiration on the team, that job was actually Sasuke's to both Sakura AND Naruto for a long time.  Sasuke instigated feeding Naruto in the bell test; Sasuke jumped in front of Sakura to protect her against the demon brothers; Sasuke was the first to sacrifice imself for a teammate in the Haku fight; Sasuke took leadership position in the FoD.  Now Naruto was climbing his way up as well, and he is an inspiration to Sakura in that he started as dead last and his improvement is very apparent.

So Naruto became a symbol of improvement, as well as encouragement by example, for Sakura, but Sasuke has also led the whole team by example.  I think people just dismiss his influence on her as Sakura's infatuation with him, but I think her speech in the FoD shows that she observed positive qualities in not only Naruto, but also Sasuke (and Lee).  Which to also add to the list, Sasuke also protected her from the Grass nin and disguised Oro just prior to this, just like Lee, showing strength, courage, and aptitude.

It is just unfortunate that after this point, Naruto gets to continue to rise as an example, while Sasuke has several outside forces dragging him down.  So we see less of his positive examples after this point.  But for me, Sasuke does what Naruto doesn't - force Sakura to look at her own flaws.  While this may seem negative, I think it's something Sakura needed because she did show up in the series rather self-absorbed.  Could she have reached the same development without Sasuke's criticisms and harsh words, but only Naruto's "positive" influence?  Perhaps, but as I said, each team member plays a unique role for the other two, and I think as far as relating on a more personal elvel, Sasuke fits Sakura better than Naruto, who only mainly influenced by example from a distance and not specific interaction and conversation (Sakura's development through Naruto from everything I can recall came from Sakura's thoughts observing Naruto from a distance).

To each his/her own for what they believe works best in a relationship, but I choose the one that has more personal involvement, even if it means taking the positive with the negative.

And it's not like with Naruto it's all positive either.  He annoys and also insults her (but without the subsequent development in the area of the insult as we get no progression but only the comedic response), even through the more recent chapters, for one; and two, he doesn't recognize her in her times of feeling low, which isn't a negative, but still an absent of a positive, imo.


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## phoenixblood (Apr 8, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> In Part 1 we see Sakura acknowledging she was wrong about Naruto being a loser [Naruto vs. Kiba], we see her acknowledging that he thinks more about his team than himself [so would raise her hand for him so he wouldn't risk his hokage dream], we see her motivated positively and inspired DIRECTLY by him just being him [after the Neji fight etc.], we see her acknowledging he wasn't set out to make her unhappy and that he always understood her, we see her trust him completely and feel evident relief thanks to him, we see them interacting in a way that will lead to a clearly mutual and positive relationship [minus both of their immaturity].
> 
> NaruSaku is as potentially romantic also cos Sasuke sorta failed in being influenced significantly by Sakura  I think she sensed it too [thanks to what she said to Ino during their fight and to Sasuke in the goodbye scene].



These are all good examples of their bond development in general, but where is the romantic tension?  That is what I specifically requested.  Your second paragraph gives NaruSaku romance by default rather than something it contains on its own (I know you're not NaruSaku, but it is what you're arguing, so....).

On the topic of Sakura being an influence (or lack of one) to Sasuke - I disagree.  You'll have to point out the page for the Ino-Sakura fight, I'm not immediately recalling what you could be referencing, as for chapter 181, I assume you mean the "You always hate me" and "never open up to me" stuff.

If she truly believed that, would she have tried?  No, I took it as the kinds of things you say when you're trying to get a person to open up.  This is a shallow example but the first thing I thought of, like when you say to someone that you look horrible, because you want to hear them deny it and say you look beautiful.  Or you whine that you're no good at something to hear the person disagree and say that you are.  You say "you never talk/open up to me" to the person you're trying to get open up.  You say "you really hate me" to the person from whom you want to hear that they don't.  You don't REALLY believe the negative statement you're making, but rather the goal is to confirm or elicit the opposite.

I'll get Sakura's influence on Sasuke at the end of the post.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> It was pretty much "solved" at the reunion IMO. He had nothing to say to her.



I guess we'll have to wait and see at the next reunions because I disagree that a lack of resolution is the resolution.  Especially since Kakashi wasn't even present to get his.  All three met Sasuke on his way out, so all three should again confront Sasuke in their different areas of relating to Sasuke.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Sasuke does not consider Naruto A BROTHER. He's denied it, and never once in the VotE expressed anything when Naruto tried to compare him to one until he asked him WHY. And Naruto said to Sasuke that he was a bond he had been searching so long that prompted him to acknowledge Naruto as an equal and admit they were connected, bring up the pain of loneliness he would feel in breaking such bond.
> 
> I do not think they have a brotherly bond. And the comparisons are so many [Kimimaro/Orochimaru, Sai/unrelated brother, Naruto telling off Itachi, difficult comparison between Orochimaru/Jiraiya by Kakashi] that brotherliness is just an aspect of the relationship imo cos Naruto can't define it adequately or Sasuke want it to influence him. They have so much unresolved they actually have _numerous_ [and clear] significant references to each other. Even NaruSaku gets some of that on a side. That's all I'll say.



Sasuke denied it because I believe that is what will eventually be resolved.  Sasuke will come to acknowledge Naruto as his brother.  To not go off topic, I will only give my opinion that the complexities of relationships you detail that is otherwise described by many characters as "brothers" would escape the target audience; especially when pretty much every other example of romantic interest has been spelled out plainly.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> Some think that bonds build throughout the story till now in a significant way even if a arguably one-sided and just don't "restart".



I'm sorry, I don't follow.



			
				izzy said:
			
		

> What I'm saying is that romantic influence is supposed to be important. Just look at Hinata or Sakura. The only person to have influenced Sasuke in a significant emotional way in exception of Itachi confirmed and explicit was Naruto. And not even Naruto, who regards Sakura FAR MORE, can put Sakura before his bond with Sasuke. Get what I'm trying to say now? Sakura doesn't deserve to be with someone that has more eyes for his bestfriend, especially who had more eyes for her well-being than he ever did.



I'm not sure what you mean by Naruto puts Sakura before his bond with Sasuke.

But for Sakura's influence on Sasuke?  I think she has affected him.  While Naruto has been someone Sasuke can view as a positive rival to push him, it is with Sakura that he finds comfort.

....sorry, have to go again, but I'll pick up here when I get back so please wait to respond to this point until I have time to back my stance.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 9, 2009)

> But for me, Sasuke does what Naruto doesn't - force Sakura to look at her own flaws.



Which is why she cried changing her mind about Naruto at the Poal, why she became Tsunade's apprentice, or said that he made her feel like she had to improve after seeing him fight against Neji Had any of those been under Sasuke's influence...I won't even imagine how much they'd be used as SS pairing support. Let alone that Naruto pulled her out of psychological justu hold from Ino.



> Could she have reached the same development without Sasuke's criticisms and harsh words, but only Naruto's "positive" influence?  Perhaps, but as I said, each team member plays a unique role for the other two, and I think as far as relating on a more personal elvel, *Sasuke fits Sakura better than Naruto*, who only mainly influenced by example from a distance and not specific interaction and conversation _(Sakura's development through Naruto from everything I can recall came from Sakura's thoughts observing Naruto from a distance)_.



Well it's not
Naruto is able to make her have realizations without being harsh. Even Kakashi admonished Sakura, but her improvement is mainly Sasuke's merit cos...it just is, one doesn't need explicit evidence but assume so because her character rotates around him . If she can say that she trusts Naruto completely, and that he always understood her, not much can be argued. Naruto makes Sakura question herself, and brought her relief whenever it came to Sasuke. Sasuke has been only able to do that with her in reference to, guess who, Naruto, by yelling at her and setting an example that even Naruto was similar in to Sasuke.



> To each his/her own for what they believe works best in a relationship, but I choose the one that has more personal involvement, even if it means taking the positive with the negative.



To each his/her own... The only thing that makes him superior to Naruto as in a pairing is the fact Sasuke is Sakura's type (in her preference) and her long-been romantic interest.



> And it's not like with Naruto it's all positive either.  He annoys and also insults her (but without the subsequent development in the area of the insult as we get no progression but only the comedic response), even through the more recent chapters, for one; and two, he doesn't recognize her in her times of feeling low, which isn't a negative, but still an absent of a positive, imo.



Oh Naruto is so mean and it's not Sakura who's bad-tempered and can't take a joke.  And the guy needs a crystal ball to know the reasons he didn't witness for her feeling bad.
Also Naruto mocked Inari for instance, and we can TELL it encouraged the latter in an explicit way after, unlike Sasuke's mocking of Sakura.

Also you are forgetting that's fodder when it comes to things that actually matter. He relieves her when she is suffering. 
But who cares I guess. Sasuke complimented her _once_. Neji not only saying Naruto had better eyes than he did, Sakura admitting herself that Naruto had always knew her feelings and helped her (even if she felt differently) doesn't matter when compared to teh sauce.



phoenixblood said:


> These are all good examples of their bond development in general, but where is the romantic tension?  That is what I specifically requested.  Your second paragraph gives NaruSaku romance by default rather than something it contains on its own (I know you're not NaruSaku, but it is what you're arguing, so....)



Sakura isn't waiting for Sasuke on his white horse. She is flirty. And I clearly said _potentially romantic_. I can't at all be someone to support the notion of romance in NaruSaku, but I CAN support the notion that Naruto is more important to her in a close relationship sense.



> On the topic of Sakura being an influence (or lack of one) to Sasuke - I disagree.  You'll have to point out the page for the Ino-Sakura fight, I'm not immediately recalling what you could be referencing, as for chapter 181, I assume you mean the "You always hate me" and "never open up to me" stuff.



Yeah prove to me that Sakura influences Sasuke more than a friend [...].

Sakura more or less consciously admits to Ino that something that attracts Sasuke's attention is being _strong_; thus that Sasuke wouldn't be interested in Ino and taunts her.



> If she truly believed that, would she have tried?  No, I took it as the kinds of things you say when you're trying to get a person to open up.



Assumptions can't contradict what's said. Sakura didn't feel he was open _to her_. Sasuke didn't even reply to that.



> You don't REALLY believe the negative statement you're making, but rather the goal is to confirm or elicit the opposite.



This is where reading too far into the Goodbye scene takes you: utter hypothesis that sounds nice but doesn't have ANY words or real circumstance to back it up, literal or theoretical.



> Sasuke denied it because I believe that is what will eventually be resolved.  Sasuke will come to acknowledge Naruto as his brother.  To not go off topic, I will only give my opinion that the complexities of relationships you detail that is otherwise described by many characters as "brothers" would escape the target audience; especially when pretty much every other example of romantic interest has been spelled out plainly.



That's what happens when "important person" is insignificant for pairing debate due to shounen excuses.



> I'm not sure what you mean by Naruto puts Sakura before his bond with Sasuke.
> 
> But for Sakura's influence on Sasuke?  I think she has affected him.  While Naruto has been someone Sasuke can view as a positive rival to push him, it is with Sakura that he finds comfort.
> 
> ....sorry, have to go again, but I'll pick up here when I get back so please wait to respond to this point until I have time to back my stance.



Not even Naruto who cares about Sakura more can put Sasuke before her in level of importance.


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## UchihaUzumaki (Apr 9, 2009)

Somehow, i dont think sasuke is ever gonna end up with anyone in the near future. He's never shown any interest in another person that was not a uchiha, he seems intent upon avenging his family and nothing else. Even if he does find love, i think its gonna take him a long time to get over his own pain and suffering to let anyone else into his life. 
As for naruhina, i think theres a maybe, though after the recent ep where hinata finally confessed her feelings for naruto, im not sure how he's gonna take it. He likes sakura after all, so i dont know that he'd just drop those feelings and go flying after hinata. Either way, its gonna be pretty awkward between those two i think...


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## UchihaUzumaki (Apr 9, 2009)

Another thing i found interesting when in the last ep. sakura replied to neji's question, that 'hinata loves naruto,' she seemed really sad, im wondering whether that was not pity for hinata or that perhaps naruto meant more to her than she's currently admitting and might not be a little sad that someone else might become closer to him than her.... i dont really know though... only theorizing.....


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## WriterforHire (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm baaaaack! 

   Seriously though, sorry about the incredibly long wait. I've been a bit busy lately, but, hey, at least I finally learned the multi-quote function, so I'll get this all out in one fell sweep. I'm a bit rusty, please bear with me. 





Inuhanyou said:


> And even this my friend, is also a major part of NaruSaku as well as we can both see in chapter three
> 
> fast
> 
> That Naruto, like Hinata, has his own reasons for caring about Sakura, its not a matter of her being an arbitrary love object like Sakura to Sasuke, who probably has no idea why she even started to like him in the first place besides him being cool and whatnot.



Now, I think this is a tad unfair to Sakura. She knows exactly why she started to like him; it was because he was cool and because everyone else admired him. She followed the crowd in that regard, yet, that does not mean her love confession at the end of Part 1 would have held as little weight as if one of those Uchiha fangirls TM came up and confessed also. I think we all can agree that at that point of time Sakura had formed a bond with Sasuke due to the moments they shared and him to her also, though his bond with Naruto outshone it by far. By the end of Part 1, all of them were close friends who had fought and died for each other and that is a strength for both Narusaku and Sasusaku while a weakness for Naruhina.   



Inuhanyou said:


> She's never once thought about why she actually cared about him, she just did because it was him and there was no need to think about anything else beyond that point.



This was the distinction I made to cuteyume (below). While we never see in the manga panels Sakura openly stopping and wondering why she "loves" Sasuke, that does not mean she hasn't done it. There's a great deal of things that goes on behind the scenes, and considering Sakura's fangirlish attitude for the first half of the manga, I'm pretty sure she thought of Sasuke and her feelings for Sasuke regularly, and I'm quite sure she also wondered why she kept "loving" him even when it became clear, in Team 7, that he didn't care for her in that way. The answer to which, is the same answer to why Naruto still cares for Sakura although she does not reciprocate his feelings...at least not yet. 



Inuhanyou said:


> To me this feels like just another step to her realization to recognizing her own self and the people around her, most especially the one who she did not notice at first.



This is indeed a key aspect of Sakrura's character. Her development has all been about growth, change, in personality and perspective of the true nature of things around her. While Naruto's key aspect is growth in physical strength, the bettering of techniques and so on, while no great, long-lasting personality shift has ever occured to him throughout the course of the manga. 



Inuhanyou said:


> This whole series has just been Sakura slowly growing and growing closer Naruto and she recognizes elements about herself and others, its never been static and its never been purely about half baked romance, and the same can be said for Naruto who although gushes over Sakura at the drop of a hat, displays his own dedication and determination to keep her happy as much as he possibly can.



This is all very true, if a bit heavily leaning towards Naruto's and Sakura's own interaction. I would say, rather, that the entirety of the manga has been focused mostly on Team 7 interactions as a whole. Narusasu brotherly bond being foremost, and then Narusaku friendship bond/romance bond on Naruto's end second, and then Sasusaku - she likes him but he dismisses her mostly but deep down finally considers her one of his precious people bond third and last. 

   The reason why I spent such a lengthy amount of words describing the Sasusaku bond is because it’s the hardest to capture. Sasuke does admit that Sakura has become one of his precious people, just like Naruto and Kakashi did. But overall throughout the course of the manga, he does largely dismiss her, almost entirely, though, because of his difficulty in displaying emotion. It's the shakiest of the three Team 7 bonds, and I truly hope Kishi spends more time on it, especially if he plans on giving his manga the supreme happy ending that most expect it will go. 




Inuhanyou said:


> That's why i can continue to reiterate that Naruto's emotions towards Sakura and viceversa are not to be cast aside without a thought, because it is hardly a one-dimensional affair.



Indeed, all of the Team 7 bonds have many dimensions, as do many of the bonds throughout the manga itself. Bonds, the forming and breaking of them, is a huge theme within the manga itself, in fact, one might say it's the core concept that ties all the stories together. And while I agree with you completely that the Narusaku bond should be nothing to be sneezed at, I also hold that the Sasusaku bond is the same also, though I would hold that it's at a far shakier and flimsy foundation, which, I know already, some Sasusakuer will contend against me on that. 



cuteyume said:


> Sakura might very well be thinking of Sasuke more often than we see in the actual manga.In fact,i can guarantee it!



Indeed, I can too. And that's neither for nor against. But it's a fact that many should realize. A good deal of development and moments can happen in between each chapter, before each chapter, and after each chapter, but it always stays within its bounds. For instance, while there might be a scene where Sakura and Shikamaru meet while walking down a road and greet each other that Kishi never decides to write into the manga, there can never be a scene where Sakura spends several months, or years, with Shikamaru, Choji and Ino while they go off on missions, something that important Kishi would inevitably add in should it actually occur. So, while we can say that Sakura probably has thought of Sasuke more often then we see in the actual manga, we can not say that Sasuke has secretly "opened up his heart" to Sakura behind the scenes, for that directly contradicts what is seen in the manga. Canon must rule. One way or another.  




cuteyume said:


> There are many other bonds that are stronger than narusaku in the NARUTO MANGA such as itasasu or zabuhaku inosaku narugaara etc



Not so, my friend. But since this exact claim was made elsewhere, by Erendhyl (below) I'll put my answer there. If you’re still interested, just read that one. 



Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





Ah. But you see. These are his inner thoughts. The most sacred and locked up part of a person, their innermost mind. How are we to know that those images were what he was consciously thinking of, or whether they were part of his subconscious? Could it not be that some deep part of him, a part he is trying to kill off, holds them more dearly then he would like to admit? I think that's the best way to explain it. He has formed his new team. He has made new companions, to, in essence, replace the old ones. He tried to kill them off. Scare them off. He does not want them around. He dismissed them. But yet, despite himself, he still thinks about them. The bond is there, but he wants it to be gone. 

This, of course, can’t be a good thing for either Sasusaku or Narusasu.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 9, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> Now, I think this is a tad unfair to Sakura. She knows exactly why she started to like him; it was because he was cool and because everyone else admired him. She followed the crowd in that regard, yet, that does not mean her love confession at the end of Part 1 would have held as little weight as if one of those Uchiha fangirls TM came up and confessed also. I think we all can agree that at that point of time Sakura had formed a bond with Sasuke due to the moments they shared and him to her also, though his bond with Naruto outshone it by far. By the end of Part 1, all of them were close friends who had fought and died for each other and that is a strength for both Narusaku and Sasusaku while a weakness for Naruhina.



This is true, but my main point i was intending to illustrate while focusing on Sakura's feelings is that there's a reason why Sakura's attraction to Sasuke was termed in "selfish" terms. Throughout a majority of their interactions, Sasuke had been largely at the focal point of her being unable to change. 

First it had been her vanity, then it had been her other relationships connected to him, then it came down to her attachment to him himself. Its not that SasuSaku as a bond is not strong, because i'm sure they were friends the same as all of the other rookie nine, and probably even closer due to the team 7 bond.

But the thing you must remember is that from a romance standpoint...this says little in comparison to many other relationships in the series. As we had seen that from the beginning Sasuke, had neither shown attraction nor interest in forming the kind of bond that Sakura wanted with him throughout part 1, and regardless of some off the wall change in the future, there is really no indication of there actually being any evidence or proof that such a development would occur, because it is still as one sided as it started out, probably more so with Sasuke's disconnection towards Konoha.




> This is all very true, if a bit heavily leaning towards Naruto's and Sakura's own interaction. I would say, rather, that the entirety of the manga has been focused mostly on Team 7 interactions as a whole. Narusasu brotherly bond being foremost, and then Narusaku friendship bond/romance bond on Naruto's end second, and then Sasusaku - she likes him but he dismisses her mostly but deep down finally considers her one of his precious people bond third and last.



It has been, this i won't contest, but my phrase there was intended to focus more on Sakura's relations throughout the manga, not exactly her as a focal point of the manga itself. NaruSasu has always been the most focal bond of the series, as Rivals, Brothers and Otherwise, but like has been said before, there isnt much in the way of saying that NaruSaku is second on that list, besides maybe Iruka's contribution to his life.


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## WriterforHire (Apr 9, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> As for Itachi, I don't disagree that he is definitely the most important person to Sasuke right now. (Sasuke gaining the Mangekyo with his death proved that enough.) However, I still don't think that this says that Sasuke's old team no longer holds a place in his heart. Sasuke was told by Madara that Itachi spared his life when he killed all others, and that Itachi threatened the elders and chose to die at Sasuke's feet in order to keep his little brother safe. Hearing that a person would go that far for you is _going_ to make them important to you, but that doesn't mean that your previous bonds become meaningless.



But you see here's the key thing: Sasuke wants those bonds to be meaningless to him. He wouldn't have left Konaha if he did not believe that by staying there he was being weakened, softened, and that he would become stronger by joining up with Orichimaru, which, also, the same thing happened here as it happened at Konaha. When he believed that Orichimaru has taught him as much as he could, that he had surpassed the Sanin, Sasuke decided to kill him and join another group which could help him with his aim: Team Snake. (Or Team Eagle, whatever). I feel rather sure that he'll abandon them once his goal is accomplished also. 

   And there was a specific reason why I brought up Itachi, and I'm glad you agree that Itachi is now the closest one to Sasuke, for it saves me a lot of effort. You see, prior to the Battle at the Valley, Naruto was the closest person to Sasuke, Sasuke believed that if he killed Naruto he would acquire the Mangekyo, and while this does not mean that Naruto is now meaningless to Sasuke it does show that he is less important than Itachi. Before, it was Naruto, Itachi, all the Uchihas who had died, Kakashi, Sakura, ect. But now Naruto has been bumped down a peg, so it's fair to assume that Sakura has also, since, as you yourself admitted, she’s less important to Sasuke then Naruto is. 





Erendhyl said:


> My main issue with the bolded part. Sasuke decided that his bonds were weakening him. And yet the entire point of this manga seems to be to prove that you are at your strongest when protecting those precious to you. Naruto learned this on his first real mission in the Land of Waves. Later, he fought Gaara in a battle that was all about proving that Naruto, the boy fighting to protect his precious people, was stronger than Gaara, the boy fighting for his hatred. Naruto has shown people before that protecting others makes you stronger, and Sasuke himself indirectly demonstrated this when he protected Naruto. This is my opinion, but I _really_ don't think that Naruto will succeed in showing this to a guy bent on murdering the two people dearest to Naruto, and yet fail to show it to Sasuke, his most precious person and the second most important character in the series.



Yes. I agree with you entirely. Naruto probably will "enlighten" Sasuke. However, I am not concerned with the things to come, but merely what is present and current in the manga. And at the current state of things, Sasuke will never return to Konoha of his own violation. That's what I meant about the natural state of things. Prior to the last couple of chapters, the state of these three pairings was that Sasuke was openly trying to harm and create a negative, weakening, effect on both Narusasu and Sasusaku, Narusaku was steadily growing, due to Sasuke's very absence, and Naruhina was stagnated, due to a lack of development on either side. But, after the Hinata's confession (There! I said it! You really shouldn't be reading this if you haven't read the last few chapters anyway) things have evened out a bit. How much so, however, depends on the individual readers.





Erendhyl said:


> What I think Sakura's hitting represents is an inability for her to work in a relationship between her and Naruto. She hits him for being perverted, which I admit, I would too. But being perverted is a part of what makes Naruto Naruto. His first jutsu invented was Sexy no Jutsu for crying out loud! He hasn't been shown to grow out of this as he ages; in fact, judging by his interaction with Konohamaru immediately following his return to the village, it intensified. Naruto is not going to grow out of being perverted anytime soon, and yet Sakura tries to get him to stop with her hitting.



     The hitting is undoubtedly suppose to be seen as one of Sakura's faults, or, depending on Kishi's own personal view, one of her innate characteristics. She has a temper. When someone does something she doesn't like (which usually involves something stupid) that temper rises up. Such is common in real life. The only difference here is that this temper is exaggerated to great lengths to stir up a comedic effect. But the same is with Hinata and her fainting. Her shyness is suppose to be an actual personality trait of her own, it too is exaggerated for comedic effect, and is (again, depending on Kishi and his view and the view of the readers) supposed to be seen as a comedic effect. They are the same. Yet, in this sense, Sakura is actually bettered by her short-fused temper, because it's what makes her believable, it is a fault and all human beings have faults. 

Hinata no longer has a fault. 

    Think of it: if these last few chapters do in fact indicate that Hinata will no longer be shy around Naruto, but instead indicate a newfound strength of character and self-expression, then Hinata is (Oh boy: I hear the screams already) then Hinata is a Mary Sue. Hinata is beautiful (so is almost all of the girls in the anime, even the elderly ones, like Chiyo, are rather good looking elderly women, considering) and she is strong enough to be a Chunin. If Hinata no longer stutters, blushes, or faints, then what fault will she have? 

So can we not say that since Sakura has a fault, and is therefore more human (which, if I remember correctly, was Kishi's goal in the creation of her character - to make her humanlike) then her temper and "abuse" can actually be a good thing? 



Erendhyl said:


> Additionally, her hitting has not been shown to be tremendously effective. He stops whatever immediate action offended her, yes, but shows no aversion to similar actions later, such as during chapter 347 when he's still interested in Konohamaru's technique (while Sakura is present). What was accomplished in the long run by Sakura's action? She'd only have to hit him again when he next performs one of these jutsu, since he hasn't been shown to be cured of his love of them.



   Exactly, and then we have more comedic moments. Such is the way that Kishi decided to form that particular aspect of their relationship, and, in some ways, that is a good thing, because, at the very least, it'll mean that there will never be a dull moment in the Narusaku household. (Should they actually end up as a couple that is). Sasusaku had no comedic moments, and the Naruhina comedic moments would not make sense in a marriage setting, and, if the latest developments still stand, these comedic moments may stop altogether. 

   In real life, this sort of thing would never happen. Typically, shy, quiet individuals do not faint or stutter every time that "Special Someone" even looks there way and those who have a temper do not punch back their friend and create a huge trench along the ground as they do. Yet since these moments, toned down in real life, do occur, when we see them in the manga, we as readers relate to them. If such a thing were to happen realistically, we would say it was terrible, but then again, in real life people tend also to finch, or scream, or bleed, when someone cuts off their arm. (Yes! I'm looking at you Orichimaru!) 

  But by no means am I taking the, Oh! It's just a manga, approach. All works of fiction, even the most bizarre, have some relation to our actual world, or else they would be meaningless to us. All the characters have two arms, a body, two legs and a head with eyes, ears and a nose and mouth. (Granted there are some exceptions...) and all of them speak Japanese, and, later, English when translated. There are trees, dirt, rocks and a sky. There was even a TV in little Sasuke's bedroom. Our universe overlaps with Naruto's in more ways then one.


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## WriterforHire (Apr 9, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> And a girlfriend must take priority over a friend who is a guy.
> 
> Naruto can grow to care for Sakura on a level that is equal to Sasuke. Easily. But, as of right now in the manga, Sasuke still is more important to him than Sakura is. Any romantic pairing with Naruto must first become equal to his bond with Sasuke. His bond with Sakura is, at the moment, the closest to doing this, but
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



    All of this, too, is very true. (Too much agreement...bad or good sign?) However, as you admited, Sakura is the one closest to him after Sasuke, and, as time goes on, both their bond to Sasuke and their bond to each other grows. In order to even keep up, Hinata had to confess, or else there would still be that stagnation of their development. Yes. There will probably be some development, but how much - though? Also, you have to realize that Hinata's confession does not only affect Hinata and Naruto. I thought the look on Sakura's face last chapter as she was healing Hinata, and her thoughts, we're very promising. It's entirely possible that Hinata's confession can serve as development for Narusaku. All it would take is for Sakura to begin to feel jealous and then to wonder why she was jealous. (Which, I would think would fit her character to a T. It has something to do with that temper I mentioned earlier.) 

   The problem with the last couple of chapters is that I see it as Kishi setting up things for the end of the manga. I really do. In the last few chapters we have seen that Naruto has now been come to be seen by the ninjas as the most powerful one among them. He's now in a league of his own...why does that sound familiar? Because that's the very definition of a Hokage. All it would take is a confirmation of Kakashi being dead, and possibly Tsunade dieing (though that's not neccesary) and literally Naruto will be the only canidate that is left. 

   That and it seems to me to be highly foreshadowed that the confrontation with Madara and Sasuke is up next. After all, the two of them are now coming to destroy Konoha, and Naruto now knows that Madara is the real mastermind behind it all. And after Pain is gone, the only thing left is Madara and Sasuke. All other enemies have been dealt with, all other threats gone. It really seems to me that the manga is nearing a close. 

   And if it is, then there's not enough time for either Sasusaku or Naruhina to occur naturally. All of it would have to be done behind the scenes. Naruto would have to bring back Sasuke, and then we will have to skip several years into the future, where Konoha is rebuilt or being rebuilt and find out, somehow, that the two couples have come together. There will be no way to form the foundation of a relationship inside the manga itself. Which is why I'm hoping that Narusaku occurs if the manga is drawing to a close, for then it will seem more natural to me. But if the manga isn't coming to a close anytime soon, and a new threat will arrive, then everything's up in the air. I think that's what you Sasusaku and Naruhina supporters should be hoping for, what we all should be hoping for actually.  



Erendhyl said:


> I get what you are saying here.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



    But how is her watching over Naruto and worrying about him any different then what she normally does? Or, for that matter, her initial instinct to go in and help Naruto? As I said before, Sakura, had she known what was going on (good point about the Byakagan, whoever said it), would have happily jumped in and risked her life for Naruto's sake. But that does not mean it's foreshadowing of her suddenly stepping out and doing something about it. But this is neither here nor there. I simply wished that Kishi had spent more time building up Hinata's courage so that the confession didn't take me for such a loop. 



Erendhyl said:


> We know that over the timeskip Hinata became a chuunin. That tells us that either she improved a great deal ninja-wise, or that she drew an easy bracket in the finals. (Unlikely, but not impossible.) In part 1, we saw her improving in confidence during her preliminary fight with Neji _where Naruto was watching._ As most characters continued to improve over the timeskip, we assumed that she would as well.



    Indeed, Hinata, like many other characters, did improve and change, however, some of it was more natural and gradual - like Sakura, for instance. It was a long, painful process for Naruto to finally get to the level of closeness he is with Sakura now. And I don't have any reason to believe it would not be as long and painful of a process for Hinata to get that close to Naruto, for such closeness necessitates much shared time, emotions, feelings and thoughts. There must be a common ground for both parties, and the stronger the ground, the stronger the relationship, and the more varied that ground/foundation, more interesting/ unique that relationship becomes. 

   Hinata is strong...for a secondary character. However, as I mentioned before, Naruto has now reached a level of power that is very distinctly Hokage-like. And, one thing about Sakura's character is that she can keep Naruto in line. For short spans of time, granted, but for the unstoppable force that is the # 1 Most Unpredictable Ninja Naruto Uzimaki, that's rather impressive. But could Hinata restrain Naruto any better than Sakura could? I don't know, because we have not seen the two truly interact in a profound and undeniable level. What would their day-to-day interactions be like? How would their personalities clash or mold together? These sorts of things must be defined, especially if the one overarching theme that has so far defined their relationship (that awkwardness on Hinata's end and obliviousness on Naruto's) is to be stripped away. Something new must be formed, and that must take time and a author must make his readers buy it. 



Erendhyl said:


> But then we saw her disastrous meeting with Naruto, where she fainted within a chapter after thinking that she “wasn’t ready”.
> 
> She wasn’t ready for what? Talking to the one she loved and admired? She did that in chapter 98 and didn’t seem to have thing big of a problem, and I really don’t think that Kishimoto would have had her character regress like that. So far, there were two things Hinata lacked: she hadn’t developed an especially close bond with Naruto, and she hadn’t told him that she loved him. The first one wouldn’t have been that hard—it’s Naruto, the boy who walks around giving out friendship the way Santa gives out presents. The second one, I could see being hard.



Here is where we differ considerably. The first one is infinitely harder than the second one ever will be. In fact, the first one is necessary for the second one to have any weight at all! If you say: "I love you" to a stranger, it has no effect save them thinking you're really weird. But if you say: "I love you" to your closest friend in the world, it'll have quite the effect. Logically speaking, Hinata should have focused on becoming closer to Naruto. Also, while Naruto willingly puts anyone and everyone who is interested into that overarching category of "precious people" only a few of them share the deepest recesses of his heart Iruka, originally, but now Sasuke and Sakura. Hinata falls only under the first category; Naruto loves her as much as he loves Konahamaru. In order for her love to actually have something to support it she needs to become special, more so then she is now. 

   Also, when I saw that chapter, I distinctly thought that she wasn't ready to talk with Naruto again after 3 years, the thought that she was preparing, since then, to confess never reached my mind. And, naturally, it would be awkward for you to see someone again, who still admired and "loved" after 3 years, especially if you were the type of person that Hinata was. If anything, I was both glad and disappointed with Hinata in that chapter. Glad, because it shows that she was, indeed, acting in a way that seems realistic and humanlike, disappointed because somehow I wanted her to keep that fault while still triumphing over it. Confusing, I know, but it's the best I can relate.


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## WriterforHire (Apr 9, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> So where am I going with this? Well, if Hinata was planning on confessing to Naruto, it would explain a lot of her awkwardness, would it not? Arent we all awkward when confessing how we really feel about someone? Does that mean that we are incredibly shy people, or that we arent mature as people? No. Its a human reaction to be nervous about confessing, and it doesnt reflect on us as people.



However, Hinata _is_ a shy person, such is her established nature since the beginning of the manga. Her change was not to get rid of this essential characteristic, but to overcome it to be strong when the need arose. Do you know the expression, "It is always the quiet ones -" ? Well, that expression can be taken two ways in fiction, either a negative light (like serial killer, sort of light) or a positive light (superhero in disguise). But there's still this stereotype that the quietest, shyest person always have something secret, some hidden depth. And such was the case with Hinata. She had her secret feelings for Naruto and her secret desire to be like him and become stronger. 

   You see you're trying to justify her actions by saying: She was nervous about confessing - anyone else would be nervous! You're trying to cover up a flaw and push it aside. Don't. It's good. Her stuttering, blushing, fainting - it was perfectly fine, so was her determination to overcome these faults. Don't try to say that she grew during the time skip, when we clear see she has not and also don't consider it a negative thing that she was still awkward around Naruto, for such is part of her nature. As I said, I had split emotions on viewing that scene, I both wished she had grown a bit stronger during the time-skip, but I was also glad she had not and stayed her essential nature - that way we could see the change occur! What I wanted for Hinata was more screen time with Naruto (or others) so that we see that she has grown a bit during the time skip, perhaps, but more so see her _growing_ in the manga itself. We did not get this. 



Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, later in part 2 we see Hinata interacting with Naruto with significantly less difficulty. In chapter 354, she managed to tell him Lets do our best! with only a slight stutter and a blush. (And remember, this is Hinata were talking about.) And we see her interacting with other characters just fine, such as the way she talks with Koh. Koh is a Hyuuga, a member of the very family that previously rejected her, and yet she talks to him without any apparent problem when asking if hes alright when the village is destroyed.



    The second part doesn't really concern us much, for while it's very good that we see her interacting with other Hyuugas, the question was not whether Hinata could gather up the courage to talk to other people in general, but the focus is entirely on her interactions with Naruto, especially whether those interactions are enough to establish a romantic tone. For instance, that one line: "Let's do our best!". Wasn't that the sole line she ever said? And how exactly did Naruto react? Did he look over at her and smile and nod his head? Did he thank her later? What came of it? Such small moments are good in the sense that they lay the foundation for other such moments to occur, but, if not addressed, they are left by the wayside. One line from Hinata does not seem like growth to me, especially if that's the sole line she managed to drag out while around Naruto. 

   Moments, specifically romantic moments, are designed with establishing a basis for similar such moments in mind. As such, the infamous, and, somewhat controversial, date requests are a good example. Each one of those dates is a separate moment, and, they've all led up and supported each other. Naruto asks for a date: Sakura rejects. Naruto asks for a date: Sakura rejects. Naruto asks for a date: Sakura accepts - they talk about Sasuke. Naruto asks for a date: Sakura accepts - Naruto has to pay. Each one of them have a different outcome, and they've all established an aspect of the twos constant, daily interactions. Does it matter if Naruto is rejected or accepted? Not really, because he has the opportunity to ask again later, and has ample opportunity for many of such moments. Hinata does not have such a wide variety of opportunities, she doesn't hang around Naruto 24-7, as such each moment has to be particularly noteworthy to break through the day-to-day routine that Naruto and Sakura have established, in order to make Hinata truly stick out in Naruto's mind. 



Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> What I am trying to show with this is that Hinata did mature, and that her confidence issues were lessened over part 2. As you said in your original post though, a large part of it was that Naruto was threatened. Pain was going to take him to extract the Kyuubi, killing him in the process, before she intervened. A central theme of this series, as I mentioned before, is that you become truly strong only when you are fighting to protect what is precious to you. Like when Naruto took himself to a whole other level during his fight with Gaara, Hinata took herself to another level here.



But the problem is that we have not seen enough of these moments. Yes, some moments did occur, and they can be considered progress, but not enough of them. What we needed was something similar to this scenario: Kiba is talking to Neji and telling him that Hinata has been spending a lot of time lately in the training grounds, and once she heard her mutter Naruto's name. This would actually go a long way, for it shows that Hinata is taking action because of Naruto, and that this is a repeated string of actions, for the "a lot" can mean days or weeks or even months, thus, it would give a foundation when a new jutsu is thrown out, and it'll show furthermore how Naruto is indirectly strengthening Hinata. 

Yet more then this, Hinata needed more actions with Naruto himself, before she was ready for such a leap, she needed to overcome her stuttering, fainting and blushing, before she made her confession, and make at least one meaningful conversation with him. They needed to become close friends. Now Hinata doesn't even have this option anymore, anything she does or say to him from now on will have the confession looming over them. It _might_ be the something needed for that strong bond to form, or it might actually hinder such a bond from forming. 

In the end, the way I view the confession is this: Hinata jumped the gun. It was too early. 

Granted, as I said before, she probably thought there was no other time. She was fully expecting to die. She still might. (Unlikely though now, Sakura's working on her.)




Erendhyl said:


> I disagree with the comment that Hinata cant truly love Naruto. None of us have ever spoken to the characters of Naruto or interacted with them at all. (At least, I dont think we have) And yet we know them, or at least think we do, well enough to create this thread. Everything we know about them, weve gained through watching what they said and did over a great extent of time. Weve come to understand their characters, and to view them as important or even precious people.



   The problem here is that none of us is trying to say that we are in love with a certain character in the manga by simply reading it (at least, I hope we're aren't!). Also, unless you're using the compatibility argument ("Naruto and Sakura just compliment each other! That's why they should get together!")none of us are using our observations of individual characters to determine what their feelings are, we are using what is specifically given to us by the manga (or the anime and databooks). 

   As for Hinata not truly loving Naruto, if you wish to believe she truly does, if you truly believe she has seen enough of Naruto, knows enough of him, for her feelings to be 100% legitimate love, then that is fine. What I mean is that I personally, can not accept that Hinata truly loves Naruto, because to me, the difference between loving someone and crushin' on them is as different as night and day. It's a personal belief. But it's a belief that might not be shared by Kishi, so it really can't be used as an argument in these debates. 

  But think of it this way: Does Hinata know that Naruto likes Ramen? Or that he lives in an apartment? Or that he hated that cat in their first mission? Or the real reason why he's after Sasuke? (Granted, a part of me thinks not even Naruto knows why he's really so obsessed with Sasuke) Or that he couldn't swim in the beginning of part one? Did she see him alone stand up against Orichimaru when both Sasuke and Sakura were scared motionless due to that venom? 

  These are all different things that Sakura has come to learn about Naruto through first-hand experience, and each one of them has a different tale behind it, like Ichirakus, the cat-chasing mission, Naruto and Sasuke's tragic pasts, and Naruto falling into a river and being pulled downstream as Sasuke jumps in to rescue the poor damsel in distress. Hinata has had less of an opportunity to get to know Naruto through first-hand moments, experiences and memories. But this is, indeed, a start - 

I still can't help but feel as if it's a bit too late, especially if the manga is close to ending.


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## WriterforHire (Apr 9, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> I hope that this helped you some in trying to see where people are coming from when they say that Hinata wasn?t OOC here.



No, it was not OOC. It was very in character for her to confess, in fact, that was something I, and Naruhina supporters in general, were expecting. The problem I have is that I don't think she was the level in her development to willingly make that choice to confess yet, but, as I said before, that whole "Naruto-kun is going to die!" clause _miiiiight_ have something to do with it... (Shifty eyes) 




Erendhyl said:


> I agree with you about how Sakura has come to know Naruto. However, I disagree about Hinata for the reason that I explained above.



How about this then, who understands Naruto better? Hinata or Sakura? 





Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> But Naruto couldn?t defeat Pain. Before Hinata intervened, Pain had Naruto pinned down with chakra rods and was preparing to take him to have the Kyuubi extracted. Naruto was not in a position to do anything. When Pain blasted Shima, all Naruto did was say ?You bastard!? Normally, Naruto would be clobbering Pain for attacking anything, even a frog, that Naruto considered a friend. The fact that he doesn?t I find to be evidence that he can?t.



*Spoiler*: __ 





Who says Naruto couldn't defeat Pain? O you of little faith! 

   In all seriousness though, such situations Naruto strives in, and such situations make up the bulk of anime and videogames. The protagonist is stuck in a situation where death seems nigh on assured, yet, somehow, he escapes it, normally within an inch of his life. Even as Naruto was pinned to the ground, I figured he would found someway out. I knew Kishi would provide some means, and he did: the means was Kyubbi through Hinata's confession and then assault. But can we say that Naruto definitely would have died if Hinata hadn't jumped in then? Perhaps not. But I would have thought that Hinata would have been the first to believe that Naruto would manage to escape out unharmed - he's that odds defying sort. 



Erendhyl said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I don?t think that Sakura stayed behind because she was unwilling to sacrifice her life for Naruto. I think it was because she lacked a Byakugan, unlike Hinata, to see what was happening. During the next chapter, 438, she is shown listening to what Koh tells her about what?s happening with Naruto, and being totally dependent on this information for knowledge of the fight. Koh was not with Sakura during 437 as he was with Hinata. During 437, Sakura would have been without a Hyuuga to tell her what was happening, and therefore without a way to know.



As I somewhat hinted at above, thank you for this clarification. I completely missed that. In that case, yes, she couldn't have known when to jump in, but I still hold that if she was aware of the situation, she would have felt the desire to protect Naruto as much as Hinata did, and she has a better foundation for those feelings also, for it is based on shared, mutual experience instead of one-sided romantic feelings, but whether these romantic feelings for Naruto are stronger than Sakura's platonic feelings for Naruto, that is almost entirely up to the reader's discretion.





Erendhyl said:


> I look forward to it. (Seriously, I do.) You have good points, and I enjoy debating with you.



And I with you. While my points are as lengthy as they were before, I can't help but feel that they are not as sound, but then again it's _finally_ spring break and my brain is practically dead, so I'm sure that's a good excuse. 



Erendhyl said:


> The later parts of your post were already addressed by others, and this reply is long enough as it is.



Yes, and I think I addressed those parts, but I'm not entirely sure. Anyway, it was fun. Hopefully you'll come up with some interesting counterarguments and I'll reply to them more quickly this time around. (Instead of waiting, what, two weeks? Dang.) 

Anyway. That's about it. I'm going to be working on Moonjump's arguments and other stuff right about now, but you all should expect to hear from me soon, perhaps even later today! It's great having so much time on your hands! I'm already starting to look forward to spring break.


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## mystic868 (Apr 10, 2009)

WOW nice essay 
You gave many arguments for NaruSaku and I can clearly say that I'm impressed by this mini relationship databook of yours  
I can only add that in my opinion NaruSaku was developed from the beginning but hidden from our eyes and mixed with main "Sasuke retrieval". That was done to make this relationships non obvious 
And actually I'm comparing Naruto to Misato and Sakura to Kushina - both pairs are/were lifelong companions and also the have/had similar characters


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## Erendhyl (Apr 10, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> Ah. But you see. These are his inner thoughts. The most sacred and locked up part of a person, their innermost mind. How are we to know that those images were what he was consciously thinking of, or whether they were part of his subconscious? Could it not be that some deep part of him, a part he is trying to kill off, holds them more dearly then he would like to admit? I think that's the best way to explain it. He has formed his new team. He has made new companions, to, in essence, replace the old ones. He tried to kill them off. Scare them off. He does not want them around. He dismissed them. But yet, despite himself, he still thinks about them. The bond is there, but he wants it to be gone.
> 
> This, of course, cant be a good thing for either Sasusaku or Narusasu.



One thing I noticed though is that, in the scene I provided, Sasuke didn't picture the team that he knew and left behind. He pictured them as they appear in part 2 of the manga. While the last time that Sasuke saw them was in part 2, part 2 was not the time when he had a bond with them that he would try to deny. Part 1 was. If it was only a subconscious, fleeting thought, then I doubt that he would have pictured his team as he saw them for only about an hour or so, rather than how he saw them for their entire time as a team.

Or Kishimoto could have been so used to drawing the part 2 characters that he overlooked this, but I find that unlikely.


*Spoiler*: _About creating a new team to replace the old one_ 



This is only speculation, and not meant to be taken as evidence, but I can't help but notice that Sasuke picked a female with good chakra abilities, healing abilities, and a crush on him; a guy who is loud and tends to annoy the female, resulting in her hitting him; and a quiet, slightly eccentric other guy who makes you wonder at first why he is a ninja. I'm not saying that this definitely means anything, but if Sasuke was trying to get rid of Sakura, Naruto, and Kakashi, he picked replacements who are an awful like them respectively.






WriterforHire said:


> But you see here's the key thing: Sasuke wants those bonds to be meaningless to him. He wouldn't have left Konaha if he did not believe that by staying there he was being weakened, softened, and that he would become stronger by joining up with Orichimaru, which, also, the same thing happened here as it happened at Konaha. When he believed that Orichimaru has taught him as much as he could, that he had surpassed the Sanin, Sasuke decided to kill him and join another group which could help him with his aim: Team Snake. (Or Team Eagle, whatever). I feel rather sure that he'll abandon them once his goal is accomplished also.
> 
> And there was a specific reason why I brought up Itachi, and I'm glad you agree that Itachi is now the closest one to Sasuke, for it saves me a lot of effort. You see, prior to the Battle at the Valley, Naruto was the closest person to Sasuke, Sasuke believed that if he killed Naruto he would acquire the Mangekyo, and while this does not mean that Naruto is now meaningless to Sasuke it does show that he is less important than Itachi. Before, it was Naruto, Itachi, all the Uchihas who had died, Kakashi, Sakura, ect. But now Naruto has been bumped down a peg, so it's fair to assume that Sakura has also, since, as you yourself admitted, shes less important to Sasuke then Naruto is.



First off, let me say that I agree with what you are saying here. All of Sasuke's non-Itachi bonds were bumped down. However, as I said before, I don't really think that this means much, because of how important Itachi would have just become. They are all less important now, but not meaningless.
*Spoiler*: __ 



As for how much less important, I personally will  have to wait to find out how much. The only canon scene we have dealing with his bonds with his team now is where Sasuke is talking to Madara and says that he now wishes to destroy all of Konoha. Apart from the fact that that only addresses his team bonds rather indirectly, I also am not sure how honest he was being here, as he was talking to _Madara_, the guy with the huge grudge against Konoha who would probably love it if his new subordinate shared that hatred.






> The hitting is undoubtedly suppose to be seen as one of Sakura's faults, or, depending on Kishi's own personal view, one of her innate characteristics. She has a temper. When someone does something she doesn't like (which usually involves something stupid) that temper rises up. Such is common in real life. The only difference here is that this temper is exaggerated to great lengths to stir up a comedic effect. But the same is with Hinata and her fainting. Her shyness is suppose to be an actual personality trait of her own, it too is exaggerated for comedic effect, and is (again, depending on Kishi and his view and the view of the readers) supposed to be seen as a comedic effect. They are the same. Yet, in this sense, Sakura is actually bettered by her short-fused temper, because it's what makes her believable, it is a fault and all human beings have faults.
> 
> Hinata no longer has a fault.
> 
> ...



I agree with the bits concerning Sakura's temper being a character fault, and that this serves to humanize her. However, I disagree about Hinata now being a Mary Sue.


*Spoiler*: __ 



As we've both said before in this debate, a large part of why Hinata acted the way that she did during 437 was because Naruto was in danger. We have yet to see how she will act towards him when she is no longer in danger. For all we know, she might wind up being even shyer around him at first, due to awkwardness from just having confessed. However, I do agree that she will probably eventually stop fainting around him.




I do not think that that will make her a Mary Sue. The strength of a Mary Sue is rarely average levelgenerally they are significantly more powerful than everyone around. Mary-Sue-level strength would be more like how Naruto is now than how Hinata is. Hinata is a chuunin. She is a middle level ninja, at an age when most of her peers are also middle level ninja. The only ones who aren't yet are Naruto and Sasuke, the two genin who are probably both Kage-level in strength. Hinata is hardly unusually strong; if she had not become a chuunin when so many of her peers had, it would have been like saying that she was incredibly weak.

Also, while Hinata is referred to as beautiful by a great many people in real life, it is never remarked upon in the series. With Mary Sues, their beauty is overdone, so that everyone constantly remarks upon it. You also comment that most girls in the Narutoverse are rather good-looking, which actually serves to take away from any Mary Sue qualities this would give Hinata, since she is not outstandingly beautiful when compared to her peers.

If Hinata no longer stutters, blushes, or faints, it will signify that she has grown as a character. Naruto has done the same thing: early on in the series, he was, to put it mildly, rather dense. This has been significantly lessened now: he has shown the use of good tactics in battle, and he can actually think about things other than ramen and becoming Hokage. He's no Shikamaru, but he has grown. The same thing I believe will happen with Hinata, where her blushes, faints, stutters, etc. are lessened, but she still keeps some trace of the shyness that makes her Hinata.



> Exactly, and then we have more comedic moments. Such is the way that Kishi decided to form that particular aspect of their relationship, and, in some ways, that is a good thing, because, at the very least, it'll mean that there will never be a dull moment in the Narusaku household. (Should they actually end up as a couple that is). Sasusaku had no comedic moments, and the Naruhina comedic moments would not make sense in a marriage setting, and, if the latest developments still stand, these comedic moments may stop altogether.



I agree with what you are saying here, but I disagree with what it means. (If that makes any sense...) Basically, I agree that the lack of long-term effects from Sakura hitting Naruto would generate further comedy. However, when you are actually involved in a relationship, comedy is not what is desired. Romance is. Sakura hitting Naruto would not help their relationship because, while it is exaggerated for manga, she is _mad_ at him when she hits him. It wouldn't leave dull moments, but having non-dull moments because you are angry at the other person in the relationship is not a good thing.


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## Erendhyl (Apr 10, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> All of this, too, is very true. (Too much agreement...bad or good sign?) However, as you admited, Sakura is the one closest to him after Sasuke, and, as time goes on, both their bond to Sasuke and their bond to each other grows. In order to even keep up, Hinata had to confess, or else there would still be that stagnation of their development. Yes. There will probably be some development, but how much - though? Also, you have to realize that Hinata's confession does not only affect Hinata and Naruto. I thought the look on Sakura's face last chapter as she was healing Hinata, and her thoughts, we're very promising. It's entirely possible that Hinata's confession can serve as development for Narusaku. All it would take is for Sakura to begin to feel jealous and then to wonder why she was jealous. (Which, I would think would fit her character to a T. It has something to do with that temper I mentioned earlier.)



Lots of agreement is a good sign. It means that we?re on a similar page with the manga, and therefore we actually can debate without having so many contradictory interpretations that we might as well be speaking another language.

This is a part where our interpretations of characters will probably force us to just agree to disagree.
*Spoiler*: __ 



From Sakura, you saw hints of jealousy. I saw Sakura's concern for one of her classmates and stress from all that has happened in the last couple of chapters.

Even if Sakura was jealous, I don't see her doing anything from it. She already did almost the same thing with Ino and her rivalry for Sasuke in part 1 of the series. I really think that she would have learned from that enough to not get into a rivalry over a guy again, especially not against a rival who has just proven that she would die to save the guy they are fighting over. 

I also would not see the point, from a literary perspective, if Hinata?s confession was only used as a device to make Sakura give her own confession and have it be immediately accepted by Naruto. That just strikes me as rather unnecessarily cruel to Hinata, and while she is a fictional character, it still sounds harsh.






> And if it is, then there's not enough time for either Sasusaku or Naruhina to occur naturally. All of it would have to be done behind the scenes. Naruto would have to bring back Sasuke, and then we will have to skip several years into the future, where Konoha is rebuilt or being rebuilt and find out, somehow, that the two couples have come together. There will be no way to form the foundation of a relationship inside the manga itself. Which is why I'm hoping that Narusaku occurs if the manga is drawing to a close, for then it will seem more natural to me. But if the manga isn't coming to a close anytime soon, and a new threat will arrive, then everything's up in the air. I think that's what you Sasusaku and Naruhina supporters should be hoping for, what we all should be hoping for actually.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Even if Kishimoto is setting up the end, I don't think that that end will be reached very quickly. Remaining necessary plots include: Madara, and everything concerning him; returning Sasuke to the good side and redeeming him in the eyes of the village; establishing Kabuto-Orochimaru and what he plans to do, plus stopping him; and Danzou's goals and thwarting them. While Kishimoto may be _establishing_ an ending, I think that it will take quite some time to actually get there.






> But how is her watching over Naruto and worrying about him any different then what she normally does? Or, for that matter, her initial instinct to go in and help Naruto? As I said before, Sakura, had she known what was going on (good point about the Byakagan, whoever said it), would have happily jumped in and risked her life for Naruto's sake. But that does not mean it's foreshadowing of her suddenly stepping out and doing something about it. But this is neither here nor there. I simply wished that Kishi had spent more time building up Hinata's courage so that the confession didn't take me for such a loop.



Believe me, I'm not trying to say that she was doing anything unusual for Hinata. I was trying to show that there was at least some buildup, rather than Hinata just acting. Not a great deal of buildup, but there was foreshadowing that she would do _something_. Hinata is a minor character, after all, and there wouldn't really be anything added to the story if Kishimoto had left out
*Spoiler*: __ 



the confession


and simply shown her worrying for Naruto's safety.



> Indeed, Hinata, like many other characters, did improve and change, however, some of it was more natural and gradual - like Sakura, for instance. It was a long, painful process for Naruto to finally get to the level of closeness he is with Sakura now. And I don't have any reason to believe it would not be as long and painful of a process for Hinata to get that close to Naruto, for such closeness necessitates much shared time, emotions, feelings and thoughts. There must be a common ground for both parties, and the stronger the ground, the stronger the relationship, and the more varied that ground/foundation, more interesting/ unique that relationship becomes.



But the Naruto-Sakura bond first had to overcome the fact that Sakura initially hated Naruto, while Naruto had a crush on her. The Naruto-Hinata bond had Naruto initially being indifferent towards Hinata, while Hinata had a crush on him. I don?t think that Naruto and Hinata would take quite as long to become close to one another because their bond lacked the necessity of overcoming the hatred of one party.

I agree that a common ground is necessary. Naruto and Hinata share the common ground of their struggle for acknowledgement. While Sakura also struggles for acknowledgement, she sought Sasuke?s romantic acknowledgement, and Naruto sought the acknowledgement of the village as a whole and the non-romantic acknowledgement of Sasuke. Hinata sought the acknowledgement of Naruto in particular.


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## Erendhyl (Apr 10, 2009)

> Hinata is strong...for a secondary character. However, as I mentioned before, Naruto has now reached a level of power that is very distinctly Hokage-like. And, one thing about Sakura's character is that she can keep Naruto in line. For short spans of time, granted, but for the unstoppable force that is the # 1 Most Unpredictable Ninja Naruto Uzimaki, that's rather impressive. But could Hinata restrain Naruto any better than Sakura could? I don't know, because we have not seen the two truly interact in a profound and undeniable level. What would their day-to-day interactions be like? How would their personalities clash or mold together? These sorts of things must be defined, especially if the one overarching theme that has so far defined their relationship (that awkwardness on Hinata's end and obliviousness on Naruto's) is to be stripped away. Something new must be formed, and that must take time and a author must make his readers buy it.



Please, please, do not use the "Sakura controls Naruto" argument. I can view those scenes as comic relief, but the idea that it is necessary for Sakura to control Naruto I find to be both annoying and degrading to Naruto's character. He is not a dog that needs to be punished when he uses the carpet for a toilet instead of going outside. He would understand it just as well if he was told that something was unappreciated rather than being hit for it. I really don't see Sakura keeping Naruto in line at all, beyond that she stops him before the series ever hits anything beyond a PG-13 rating. As I've said before, he does the same thing again later, while in Sakura's presence. Unless Sakura is acting as Kishimoto's censor, she is not controlling Naruto to any meaningful degree.

As for the second part... I agree that at the moment interactions between Hinata and Naruto are undefined. However (and I know that this is a really corny argument) the series is not over yet. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's confession happened only about six chapters ago. Since then, Naruto has been fighting Pain constantly. There has been literally no downtime in which the two of them could interact about it, unless Pain decided to be obliging (and completely OOC) and hold off the battle so that Naruto could talk with her. Naruto needs to defeat Nagato before he can talk with Hinata; until then there is no way for us to know this.


 



> Here is where we differ considerably. The first one is infinitely harder than the second one ever will be. In fact, the first one is necessary for the second one to have any weight at all! If you say: "I love you" to a stranger, it has no effect save them thinking you're really weird. But if you say: "I love you" to your closest friend in the world, it'll have quite the effect. Logically speaking, Hinata should have focused on becoming closer to Naruto. Also, while Naruto willingly puts anyone and everyone who is interested into that overarching category of "precious people" only a few of them share the deepest recesses of his heart Iruka, originally, but now Sasuke and Sakura. Hinata falls only under the first category; Naruto loves her as much as he loves Konahamaru. In order for her love to actually have something to support it she needs to become special, more so then she is now.


 
I agree that, for Hinata to reach the level of closeness that Naruto possesses with other characters, the two of them need development. Once again though, I will ask if we can please discuss this point again after the battle has finished and Naruto has had a chance to talk with her. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



At the very least, he just heard that he has been the inspiration that saved another person, back before he was even trying to do so for anyone, and that this person would die to protect him. Even if Naruto completely rejects her romantic feelings, that degree of devotion is going to have an effect on how he views Hinata.




As for the difficulty of talking vs. confessing, I still disagree with you somewhat. By the end of the training field scene, Hinata had changed from "a shy, dark weirdo" to "but a person like you, I really like". Basically, she had won his respect. It may not be elevation to the highest tier of his precious people, but she still changed a great deal in his eyes. I think that this change would make it harder to confess. By Naruto's standards, that change is enough to become one of his friends. I agree with you that that change to friend status is necessary for her confession to hold any weight. However, it also adds difficulty for Hinata, because now she has the potential to ruin her relationship with Naruto by confessing her feelings to him if he does not feel the same way.



> Also, when I saw that chapter, I distinctly thought that she wasn't ready to talk with Naruto again after 3 years, the thought that she was preparing, since then, to confess never reached my mind. And, naturally, it would be awkward for you to see someone again, who still admired and "loved" after 3 years, especially if you were the type of person that Hinata was. If anything, I was both glad and disappointed with Hinata in that chapter. Glad, because it shows that she was, indeed, acting in a way that seems realistic and humanlike, disappointed because somehow I wanted her to keep that fault while still triumphing over it. Confusing, I know, but it's the best I can relate.



That makes sense, and I actually felt rather similarly when I first read that scene.



WriterforHire said:


> However, Hinata _is_ a shy person, such is her established nature since the beginning of the manga. Her change was not to get rid of this essential characteristic, but to overcome it to be strong when the need arose. Do you know the expression, "It is always the quiet ones -" ? Well, that expression can be taken two ways in fiction, either a negative light (like serial killer, sort of light) or a positive light (superhero in disguise). But there's still this stereotype that the quietest, shyest person always have something secret, some hidden depth. And such was the case with Hinata. She had her secret feelings for Naruto and her secret desire to be like him and become stronger.
> 
> You see you're trying to justify her actions by saying: She was nervous about confessing - anyone else would be nervous! You're trying to cover up a flaw and push it aside. Don't. It's good. Her stuttering, blushing, fainting - it was perfectly fine, so was her determination to overcome these faults. Don't try to say that she grew during the time skip, when we clear see she has not and also don't consider it a negative thing that she was still awkward around Naruto, for such is part of her nature. As I said, I had split emotions on viewing that scene, I both wished she had grown a bit stronger during the time-skip, but I was also glad she had not and stayed her essential nature - that way we could see the change occur! What I wanted for Hinata was more screen time with Naruto (or others) so that we see that she has grown a bit during the time skip, perhaps, but more so see her _growing_ in the manga itself. We did not get this.



I think that I probably didn't explain my interpretation of this very well the first time. I'm not trying get rid of Hinata's flaw, and I apologize if it came out sounding like that. What I was trying to say was that Hinata's reaction there was, if anything even more extreme than her reactions to Naruto pre-timeskip, and that was what I was trying to defend. Naruto and Hinata's reunion was one of only two times that Hinata actually fainted in front of Naruto. (The first being when she saw him covered in bandages after the Valley of the End, according to Kiba. I'm not counting her preliminary match with Neji in this because she fainted then due to battle damage, not Naruto's presence.)

Hinata is incredibly shy, and that is why her reaction was taken to the degree of fainting. Most people, if put in this situation, would feel extremely awkward, but not faint. Hinata, being both a manga character and an incredibly shy person, did. My phrasing in my previous argument was poor, and I apologize for that.


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## Erendhyl (Apr 10, 2009)

> The second part doesn't really concern us much, for while it's very good that we see her interacting with other Hyuugas, the question was not whether Hinata could gather up the courage to talk to other people in general, but the focus is entirely on her interactions with Naruto, especially whether those interactions are enough to establish a romantic tone.



What I was trying to do by pointing out her interactions with Koh is show that there was a very subtle change in Hinata. It wasn't really proof, so much as a small addition to my point that she has grown slightly less shy over the course of part 2. While that doesn?t say anything for how she would react to Naruto, who has always evoked the most extreme reactions from her, it does show that she was changing herself, at least some, and makes the startling amount of courage she displayed during her 437 action to be slightly less startling. 



> For instance, that one line: "Let's do our best!". Wasn't that the sole line she ever said? And how exactly did Naruto react? Did he look over at her and smile and nod his head? Did he thank her later? What came of it? Such small moments are good in the sense that they lay the foundation for other such moments to occur, but, if not addressed, they are left by the wayside. One line from Hinata does not seem like growth to me, especially if that's the sole line she managed to drag out while around Naruto.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto looked over, smiled at her, and agreed. That was one of the few lines that Hinata managed to get during their time on that team. During the Eight Man Squad's time, Naruto and Hinata's group appeared for the conversation with Kabuto-Orochimaru, and with the rest of the group when they met up with Tobi near the end of Sasuke and Itachi's fight. The meeting with Kabuto-Orochimaru was more geared toward interaction with Kabuto about Sasuke and Orochimaru than anything Hinata would have been likely to comment on. When the Eight Man Squad met up with Tobi, first the entire squad was focused on battling him, then Zetsu showed up with the news of Itachi's defeat by Sasuke, and Naruto's fixation on Sasuke took precedence over everything else.

Overall, Hinata didn't really have that much of an opportunity to be able to say anything. She got about five chapters in which she appeared here with Naruto, and almost all of them were focused on Sasuke and Akatsuki. Until Pain's attack on Konoha, Hinata had very little involvement in the latter, and she still lacks any personal link to recovering Sasuke.






> Moments, specifically romantic moments, are designed with establishing a basis for similar such moments in mind. As such, the infamous, and, somewhat controversial, date requests are a good example. Each one of those dates is a separate moment, and, they've all led up and supported each other. Naruto asks for a date: Sakura rejects. Naruto asks for a date: Sakura rejects. Naruto asks for a date: Sakura accepts - they talk about Sasuke. Naruto asks for a date: Sakura accepts - Naruto has to pay. Each one of them have a different outcome, and they've all established an aspect of the twos constant, daily interactions. Does it matter if Naruto is rejected or accepted? Not really, because he has the opportunity to ask again later, and has ample opportunity for many of such moments. Hinata does not have such a wide variety of opportunities, she doesn't hang around Naruto 24-7, as such each moment has to be particularly noteworthy to break through the day-to-day routine that Naruto and Sakura have established, in order to make Hinata truly stick out in Naruto's mind.



And Hinata's interactions with Naruto have been noteworthy. When they sit together during the written part of the Chuunin Exam, Hinata offers to let Naruto to copy her paper (something that impacted him simply because he didn't expect it) and Naruto refuses so that they both wouldn't get in trouble, followed immediately by Naruto regretting the lost opportunity. Later, Hinata gives him medicinal cream after his preliminary match against Kiba, despite the fact that Kiba was her teammate. During Hinata's preliminary match against Neji, it is Naruto's cheering that inspires her to keep getting back up, and Naruto winds up making an oath in her blood that he will defeat Neji. During the training field scene, Hinata inspires Naruto when he doubted his ability to stand against Neji, and she becomes a person he really likes. Later, after his match against Neji, he is shown wondering if Hinata is watching. They may have few interactions, but many of the ones that they do have are noteworthy.



> But the problem is that we have not seen enough of these moments. Yes, some moments did occur, and they can be considered progress, but not enough of them. What we needed was something similar to this scenario: Kiba is talking to Neji and telling him that Hinata has been spending a lot of time lately in the training grounds, and once she heard her mutter Naruto's name. This would actually go a long way, for it shows that Hinata is taking action because of Naruto, and that this is a repeated string of actions, for the "a lot" can mean days or weeks or even months, thus, it would give a foundation when a new jutsu is thrown out, and it'll show furthermore how Naruto is indirectly strengthening Hinata.



I do agree that such a scene would have added a great deal to it. A scene rather similar to this did appear in the Bikochu filler arc of the anime, though as this is filler the amount of weight it holds is highly questionable. In the manga, Hinata was seen saying that she would work hard as well when Naruto left the village to train with Jiraiya, which might qualify as saying that she took action because of Naruto, although that would be stretching it.



> Yet more then this, Hinata needed more actions with Naruto himself, before she was ready for such a leap, she needed to overcome her stuttering, fainting and blushing, before she made her confession, and make at least one meaningful conversation with him. They needed to become close friends. Now Hinata doesn't even have this option anymore, anything she does or say to him from now on will have the confession looming over them. It _might_ be the something needed for that strong bond to form, or it might actually hinder such a bond from forming.



I actually disagree with this. While I think that Naruto will probably need more explanation for why Hinata was willing to take this step, I think that we as the readers have seen enough of Hinata's feelings for Naruto to justify that she would take such a step to protect him. She had a meaningful conversation with Naruto during the training field scene, which I will skip describing because I did so several other times in this response. (Sorry, but I?m getting lazy after typing for more than an hour already.)

As for the second part of this, I really think we'll just have to wait and see.



> In the end, the way I view the confession is this: Hinata jumped the gun. It was too early.



I think we'll wind up having to agree to disagree on this. While a little more development with Naruto would have been appreciated, I really think that their bond had grown as far as it could without Hinata's romantic feelings coming to light. As you've said, becoming one of Naruto's most precious people is a bond that takes time to develop. I really think that in that time, Naruto would have realized Hinata's feelings one way or another.



> Granted, as I said before, she probably thought there was no other time. She was fully expecting to die. She still might. (Unlikely though now, Sakura's working on her.)




*Spoiler*: __ 



I agree with the first part of this, though I think it is very unlikely that she will die.


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## Erendhyl (Apr 10, 2009)

> The problem here is that none of us is trying to say that we are in love with a certain character in the manga by simply reading it (at least, I hope we're aren't!). Also, unless you're using the compatibility argument ("Naruto and Sakura just compliment each other! That's why they should get together!")none of us are using our observations of individual characters to determine what their feelings are, we are using what is specifically given to us by the manga (or the anime and databooks).



(As far as I know, no one is saying that they?re in love with a certain character.) We are using evidence that we see, but we are also interpreting it to some degree, or else we wouldn?t be forming different opinions on the same manga and this debate would be rather pointless. While we may not be falling in love with the characters, we are still forming opinions of them based off of their actions.



> As for Hinata not truly loving Naruto, if you wish to believe she truly does, if you truly believe she has seen enough of Naruto, knows enough of him, for her feelings to be 100% legitimate love, then that is fine. What I mean is that I personally, can not accept that Hinata truly loves Naruto, because to me, the difference between loving someone and crushin' on them is as different as night and day. It's a personal belief. But it's a belief that might not be shared by Kishi, so it really can't be used as an argument in these debates.



Alright, I see what you are saying now. I do agree that there is a huge difference between crushing on someone and loving them, but the rest I will agree to disagree on.



> But think of it this way: Does Hinata know that Naruto likes Ramen? Or that he lives in an apartment? Or that he hated that cat in their first mission? Or the real reason why he's after Sasuke? (Granted, a part of me thinks not even Naruto knows why he's really so obsessed with Sasuke) Or that he couldn't swim in the beginning of part one? Did she see him alone stand up against Orichimaru when both Sasuke and Sakura were scared motionless due to that venom?
> 
> These are all different things that Sakura has come to learn about Naruto through first-hand experience, and each one of them has a different tale behind it, like Ichirakus, the cat-chasing mission, Naruto and Sasuke's tragic pasts, and Naruto falling into a river and being pulled downstream as Sasuke jumps in to rescue the poor damsel in distress. Hinata has had less of an opportunity to get to know Naruto through first-hand moments, experiences and memories. But this is, indeed, a start -
> 
> I still can't help but feel as if it's a bit too late, especially if the manga is close to ending.



I think Hinata probably knows he likes ramen--we all knew that from the very first chapter! As for the rest, I get what you are saying. I do agree that Hinata and Naruto need shared memories as well. And they do have some, such as the majority of the Chuunin Exam and their years together at the Academy, but overall, yes, they have les than Naruto and Sakura do.



WriterforHire said:


> How about this then, who understands Naruto better? Hinata or Sakura?



Sakura does.



> Who says Naruto couldn't defeat Pain? O you of little faith!
> 
> In all seriousness though, such situations Naruto strives in, and such situations make up the bulk of anime and videogames. The protagonist is stuck in a situation where death seems nigh on assured, yet, somehow, he escapes it, normally within an inch of his life. Even as Naruto was pinned to the ground, I figured he would found someway out. I knew Kishi would provide some means, and he did: the means was Kyubbi through Hinata's confession and then assault. But can we say that Naruto definitely would have died if Hinata hadn't jumped in then? Perhaps not. But I would have thought that Hinata would have been the first to believe that Naruto would manage to escape out unharmed - he's that odds defying sort.



He is the odds defying sort, but he also had limits. (Yes, Kishimoto did actually put limits on his character. The Valley of the End is an example of this.)
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata just saw Pain destroy her entire village with one jutsu. Before her action, he had Naruto pinned down and unable to do anything but shout, at least as far as Hinata knew. Naruto is the #1 Unpredictable Ninja for a reason, but Hinata also had every reason to believe that he'd finally run out of tricks.

Whether or not she was right, we will never know.




Whew, finally done! And don't worry, your posts seemed just fine.


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## stella270 (Apr 11, 2009)

I think there is a high possibility for a NaruHina pairing right now, judging from the confession of Hinata. Kishimoto didn't just add this confession without an intention in mind, in fact it's pretty obvious this is hinting at a possible Naruto and Hinata pairing in the future. Besides, I do think that Naruto considers Hinata as "an important person". While she may not to elevated to the same level as Sasuke is, nevertheless anybody can tell that Naruto does feel to a certain degree affection for Hinata.

At this point I think that a Narusaku pairing is quite unlikely. If Sakura did have any romantic feelings for Naruto, she would have said so. Sakura isn't somebody who would hide her feelings, or feel that it is an insurmountable difficulty to express her feelings, unlike Hinata. In fact, I think deep inside Sakura is still waiting for Sasuke to return, clearly demonstrated by the fact that when Sakura has a heart-to-heart talk with Naruto, it focuses mainly on sasuke. But whether Sasuke is ready for such a relationship is another issue.


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## Kathutet (Apr 11, 2009)

stella270 said:


> I think there is a high possibility for a NaruHina pairing right now, judging from the confession of Hinata. Kishimoto didn't just add this confession without an intention in mind, in fact it's pretty obvious this is hinting at a possible Naruto and Hinata pairing in the future. Besides, I do think that Naruto considers Hinata as "an important person". While she may not to elevated to the same level as Sasuke is, nevertheless anybody can tell that Naruto does feel to a certain degree affection for Hinata.
> 
> At this point I think that a Narusaku pairing is quite unlikely. If Sakura did have any romantic feelings for Naruto, she would have said so. Sakura isn't somebody who would hide her feelings, or feel that it is an insurmountable difficulty to express her feelings, unlike Hinata. In fact, I think deep inside Sakura is still waiting for Sasuke to return, clearly demonstrated by the fact that when Sakura has a heart-to-heart talk with Naruto, it focuses mainly on sasuke. But whether Sasuke is ready for such a relationship is another issue.


The problem is, that these moments keep switching every 50 chapters. NaruSaku and NaruHina moments have been there, but Kishi keeps focusing on one pairing, then switches to another one in an instant. It's frustrating and confusing. But, that _is_ what he wants, so I like to believe.


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## Takagou (Apr 11, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> The problem is, that these moments keep switching every 50 chapters. NaruSaku and NaruHina moments have been there, but Kishi keeps focusing on one pairing, then switches to another one in an instant. It's frustrating and confusing. But, that _is_ what he wants, so I like to believe.



Hey...I think that's the first thing i've ever read from you that I agree with!  YAY for common ground 

I'm going with Naruhina f0r teh uuber wIn .  I just feel that if kishi didn't want naruhina, killing her off would have been the easiest route.  I'm not saying I would have been HAPPY about it.  I simply mean that to injure her after a confession, but NOT kill her, just to have a very UN-naruto (as in the manga, not the character  ) moment of rejected feelings (a manga about acknowledgment and dreams come true=/= rejection x.x ) is very awkward, and takes up more panel space than other routes.  I know that there is the argument that HINATA will realize she doesn't love Naruto...but c'mon people, kishi isn't the type to write something where a character CLAIMS to love someone, but actually doesn't.  If a naruto character reveals a feeling, then they feel that feeling.  If Sakura claims to love Naruto, I'm not going to question the girls own feelings; if she feels a way, she feels that way.  UNTIL she does this, I will question it.  Thusly, I would appreciate the argument, "Hinata doesn't REALLY love him, she just SAYS she does!" being dropped.  Let's respect Kishi and the characters to know their own feelings, shall we?


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## Kathutet (Apr 11, 2009)

Takagou said:


> Hey...I think that's the first thing i've ever read from you that I agree with!  YAY for common ground
> 
> I'm going with Naruhina f0r teh uuber wIn .  I just feel that if kishi didn't want naruhina, killing her off would have been the easiest route.  I'm not saying I would have been HAPPY about it.  I simply mean that to injure her after a confession, but NOT kill her, just to have a very UN-naruto (as in the manga, not the character  ) moment of rejected feelings (a manga about acknowledgment and dreams come true=/= rejection x.x ) is very awkward, and takes up more panel space than other routes.  I know that there is the argument that HINATA will realize she doesn't love Naruto...but c'mon people, kishi isn't the type to write something where a character CLAIMS to love someone, but actually doesn't.  If a naruto character reveals a feeling, then they feel that feeling.  If Sakura claims to love Naruto, I'm not going to question the girls own feelings; if she feels a way, she feels that way.  UNTIL she does this, I will question it.  Thusly, I would appreciate the argument, "Hinata doesn't REALLY love him, she just SAYS she does!" being dropped.  Let's respect Kishi and the characters to know their own feelings, shall we?


Har har, finally! 

I came to respect your choice for NaruHina, but to be honest... I don't want any pairing to become canon anymore. Except for ShikaTema. Because there will be a serious shitstorm whenever any pairing becomes canon. And I do not want this.

And I agree; Sakura's feelings are completely and utterly unknown to this day. There's no need to speculate, there is virtually no proof that Naruto loves Hinata and/or Sakura loves Naruto. None. 
I mean this in a romantical sense, of course. 

And Hinata _does_ love Naruto. It was obvious from the very beginning of this tale; Hinata said and did enough and showed us that she was in love. This argument shouldn't have been there in the first place.


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## Takagou (Apr 11, 2009)

I've had to deal with people claiming she doesn't REALLY love him, she just thinks she does.  I hate that argument.  Just wanted to address it in my official claim.

Edit:  

Looked over an old kishi interview.  Apparently he only planned one unrequited love to be requited, and agrees that he hopes Hinata gets her chance  Me likey...


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## Fay (Apr 11, 2009)

Takagou said:


> Edit:
> 
> Looked over an old kishi interview.  *Apparently he only planned one unrequited love to be requited,* and agrees that he hopes Hinata gets her chance  Me likey...



No he didn't. He said "maybe atleast one of them", not "only one" and not "definitily one".

Meaning that he *may* make *atleast* one case requited.


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## Griever (Apr 11, 2009)

I personaly think that Naruto and Sakrua would be a better story than Naruto and Hinata. I mean Naruto has had a crush on Sakura since the start of the manga and he never really gave up on it, it started as Naruto likeing Sakura wile Sakura Hated Naruto and as time went on Sakura started to like Naruto and see him as a person rather than the monster that everyone thought he was and tought there kids to think he was.

In part 2 Sakura started to care deeply about Naruto and thay became best friends, and as it went on Sakura may have developed romantic feelings for Naruto, Wile Naruto is to busy to think about women all the time he has made atemps to get with Sakura by asking her out on dates a few times in part 2, (people may debate rather this was just comic nonsense however what would be the point of him asking her on dates if it was just comic bull?) so Naruto and Sakura shows that is you keep going and never give up no matter what things that you want will happen.

Wile Naruto and Hinata well that would say.... nothing really but WTF was that about i mean it has no real value to the story it does not really say anything about the main character and i think there relationship would be rather dull.

The thing that set's Naruto and Sasuke apart if the fact that Naruto originaly had nothing. He was not liked by anyone he had no friends, but he worked hard for them and he got them.
Wile Sasuke lost his family but was well liked throughout the start of the manga had talent, so Sasuke is not as special as Naruto in my book.

That's my opinion anyways.


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## typeg (Apr 11, 2009)

If Kishimoto had wanted a difficult paring to happen since he said he was crap at romance, he'd probably choose NaruHina. Sakura and Naruto seem like the people who will be bonds closer to bro/sis than romance.


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## The Duchess (Apr 11, 2009)

Because a sister would feed a brother in a culture where such an act is considered romantic, amirite?


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## typeg (Apr 11, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> (As far as I know, no one is saying that they?re in love with a certain character.) We are using evidence that we see, but we are also interpreting it to some degree, or else we wouldn?t be forming different opinions on the same manga and this debate would be rather pointless. While we may not be falling in love with the characters, we are still forming opinions of them based off of their actions.


Sakura actions towards naruto have been friendship, loyalty and trust. She knows what she and Naruto have in common and thats is the entire basis of their relationship. Without Sasuke I don't think they would even have some conection to be a pair.





> Alright, I see what you are saying now. I do agree that there is a huge difference between crushing on someone and loving them, but the rest I will agree to disagree on.


But you think Sakura understands Naruto more than Hinata.





> I think Hinata probably knows he likes ramen--we all knew that from the very first chapter! As for the rest, I get what you are saying. I do agree that Hinata and Naruto need shared memories as well. And they do have some, such as the majority of the Chuunin Exam and their years together at the Academy, but overall, yes, they have les than Naruto and Sakura do.


Naruto and Sakura have more memories with Sasuke than anything else, see without Sasuke, Sakura wouldn't cope with Naruto and still find him a annoying pest. Hinata and Naruto share a connection because they understand how it's like to be a failure to people they have a connection to.




> Sakura does.


Sakura knows about Naruto and his deep bond with Sasuke. Hinata knows the knooks and crannies of Naruto's ambition and intent of being a proud failure. I'd say Hinata understands Naruto better. 





> He is the odds defying sort, but he also had limits. (Yes, Kishimoto did actually put limits on his character. The Valley of the End is an example of this.)
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata choose to save Naruto reguardless of that because of her undying love for him

Whether or not she was right, we will never know.






> Whew, finally done! And don't worry, your posts seemed just fine.


Okay.


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## typeg (Apr 11, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> Because a sister would feed a brother in a culture where such an act is considered romantic, amirite?


Yes, and feeding someone is always a act of kindness and friendship know matter what. Sasuke fed Naruto and Kakashi did as well.


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## Sage (Apr 11, 2009)

Sakura does know Naruto better than Hinata... 

Sakura and Naruto have been in the same team for years and these two have spent more time together than anyone else... how do you expect Hinata to know more about Naruto when she shows up once in a blue moon in the manga?

how do you expect Hinata (who is barely even a third string character) to know more about Naruto than Sakura who is by Naruto side majority of the time!... unless if Byakugan could read peoples thoughts too 

I can see the point in where Naruto and Hinata share a connection to both being failures and wanting to improve... and Sakura has that same connection with Naruto too!

Sakura was a failure too and she got her encouragement from Naruto just like Hinata... for every connection you can think of that NaruHina has, NaruSaku would have ten.


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## NaruSaku12345 (Apr 11, 2009)

Takagou said:


> Hey...I think that's the first thing i've ever read from you that I agree with!  YAY for common ground
> 
> I'm going with Naruhina f0r teh uuber wIn .  I just feel that if kishi didn't want naruhina, killing her off would have been the easiest route.


All of the rookie 12 have character sheild; it has nothing to do with the pairings.





> I'm not saying I would have been HAPPY about it.  I simply mean that to injure her after a confession, but NOT kill her, just to have a very UN-naruto (as in the manga, not the character  ) moment of rejected feelings (a manga about acknowledgment and dreams come true=/= rejection x.x ) is very awkward, and takes up more panel space than other routes.  I know that there is the argument that HINATA will realize she doesn't love Naruto...but c'mon people, kishi isn't the type to write something where a character CLAIMS to love someone, but actually doesn't.


First of all, we are not claiming that Hinata will "fall out of love with Naruto, she could stay in love with him for the rest of eternity for all I care.





> If a naruto character reveals a feeling, then they feel that feeling.  ?


Lee loves Sakura. Do you see any LeeSaku?





> If Sakura claims to love Naruto, I'm not going to question the girls own feelings; if she feels a way, she feels that way.  UNTIL she does this, I will question it.  Thusly, I would appreciate the argument, "Hinata doesn't REALLY love him, she just SAYS she does!" being dropped.  Let's respect Kishi and the characters to know their own feelings, shall we



I understand that. But just because Hinata loves Naruto, does not mean that he will accept her (as a lover/gf). Did Sasuke accept Sakura?.... no.


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## Milkshake (Apr 11, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _ Big 3 Rant_ 



As of this point, any pairings have the same equalvalent amount of chance to become canon - Kishi is a clever bastard and won't stop until we're all mentally screwed. Yes, even SasuSaku which hasn't had any time of development; specifically romantic in over 300+ chapters. But truly neither has of any other pairing.

NaruSaku has what other pairings lack; a strong mutual base- they grew up with one another and know one another, their teammates, and they can share the pain of having lost a teammate as well. Naruto has earned Sakura's respect as a being over the years, that's wonderful to grow from hate to outmost respect and trust. However; there is nothing explicit to say that Sakura loves Naruto romantically (atleast not to me) but she is indeed growing closer and closer to him each day. Sakura has not been shown nodding any feelings for Naruto (from platonic to romantic)  over to atleast give us a brief glimpse of what she feels for him, but she is indeed growing closer to Naruto than she will ever have with Sasuke. 

Naruto has been shown to give her various date requests ; just like Sakura used to do to Sasuke, however uncomparable in their own ways. I blame Kishi for not making Naruto give us a vivid picture of his feelings for Sakura; all those times that she could've passed his thoughts ; or maybe an inner boost of confidence to ask her on a date again, but it wasn't there. However, Naruto does indeed care for Sakura above many others, but nothing too explicitly romantic to say that he's deeply in love with her that his world shatters apart because of it. However Naruto does love Sakura in a sense that is far beyond a teammate but as a person. Because of this, his feelings can seem debatable. Altogether it doesn't matter what anyone thinks; if Sakura were to pursue Naruto, it would be a yes. I believe this pairing is ambigious until Sakura is shown thinking about her romantic feelings for Naruto, or any feelings at all. It is ambigious because somehow people think there's some loose strings she has with Sasuke; which is also ambigious. Both her relationships with the boys (Sasuke and Naruto ) have not been explicitedly addressed for a reason; and only Kishi knows that for now.

NaruHina too has a solid mutual base, Naruto thinks of her a comrade, a good friend, but the other loose ends from her confession has yet to be addressed. Naruto knows little of Hinata as a person, he has little interaction with her and was completely oblivious to her crush on him until recently. It is still possible but not exactly plausible for him to consider her affection and give her a chance; forgetting the long time crush he had on Sakura. Until he explicitedly states his stand on romantic terms with Hinata and/ or Sakura, Naruto's part of this shipping is ambigious as well. At this point I don't know if he'll accept her love and give her a try or reject it kindly due to his liking to Sakura. Kishi is also doing this for a reason.

SasuSaku never had a strong or solid mutual base; they were comrades and Sasuke hardly talked to her in his spare time. Sasuke should no very little about Sakura's personal life.  Sasuke cut off their bond with a thank you, and at the reunion didn't even bother to talk to her; only proceeding to send his sword through her. However from the flashbacks, Sasuke still channels from type of feelings for Team 7 as whole, but nothing explicitedly shows that he does or has ever shown that he has or does like Sakura romantically. Sakura's feelings are hardly addressed, since there is not DIRECT EXPLICIT evidence that states or shows that Sakura is over him or not, it is ambigious on Sakura's side. On Sasuke's side it is clear that he has never or does have romantic feelings for Sakura, but does still think of her in his Team 7 flashbacks as a comrade. 


Hope that made sense.


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## Kathutet (Apr 11, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> *Spoiler*: _ Big 3 Rant_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And that is _exactly_ how it is. EXACTLY.


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## Milkshake (Apr 11, 2009)

I hope I got that right. :/


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## NaruSaku12345 (Apr 11, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> I hope I got that right. :/



I can't think of a better way to put it. But then, I have no one to debate now...


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## Sage (Apr 11, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> *Spoiler*: _ Big 3 Rant_
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I tip my hat to you..

+1 rep


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## One-Shot (Apr 12, 2009)

Ok, i've come to give my own little discussion (i prefer the term rant) on NaruSaku... Where to start...

Ok first things first, i have no dislike of NaruHina, it's less likely, but i see nothing wrong with it. I simply hate SasuSaku because, like NaruHina, it's less likely, -snip-

Ok, commonly used defenses...

"But in Part I Sasuke knocked Sakura out so that he wouldn't-"


*Spoiler*: __ 



Blah blah blah you all know this, it's old. Yes, he did. If i was any more blunt i'd simply respond with "He'd do it to anyone, he's a dick." Not to say he's not, he really can just go to hell. But i think of it like, it was a requirement of the situation. Put anyone in Sakura's place, and he'd just leave because he knows they know his mind is made up. Sakura however, being more persistant than a starving dog desperately chasing the last bone in existance, would of course had come after him, if not just followed him despite anything he said. I hate to say this because i'm against all that mary-sue accusation crap, but she was clingy as hell, and just about anyone else in Sasuke's place, hell, even Naruto, probably would have done the same.


 "But now that Hinata got hurt and admitted her love,-"


*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto is going to completely change his character and give up the girl of his dreams because Hinata couldn't control her damn hormones. Yeah, i thought so. The thing about NaruHina is that she's too quiet, personally, i think that's like muting Sakura. However it just doesn't work out. Naruto is the loud, full-of-surprises ninja who's not afraid to break a few bones, or hell, his entire spine. He and Hinata are on good terms right now, but it seems that unless she had a complete change of character, this isn't going to work out. Which brings me to my next commonly used defence. 



"They're just too different" 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, thank you for proving my point.



Alright, alright... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



That's the thing, unlike Naruto and Hinata, Naruto and Sakura are on good terms *because* of their nearly opposite personalities. While Naruto is high strung and, well you heard it all before, he's already shown to be calm and peaceful around Sakura, so she may be the only one to get a leash around him, lord knows he needs one. He's actually calm around her because he both respects her and fears her, and Sakura, while sometimes taking advatage of that, respects him in return and as it seems recently, actually looks up to him.


 Thanks for reading. If you're understanding to my arguement, thanks! If you're not, screw you! (Joking) And by understanding i actually mean you don't have to agree with it, just realise where i'm coming from if nothing else.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 12, 2009)

*....*

ok so i will make this simple
with all that theories it just looks artificial
ok so naruto isnt the type of manga/cartoon where there's a lot of "love" and romantic parts. It's just like that... so if we want to make theories i think that there won't be any couples before the last episode/chapter 
so now simple part: naruto likes sakura and that's obvius. we can't know is that love like a crush or a real one but we can make theories  so i am for narusaku because naruto has dreams of his own (hokage and stuff) but he worked so hard through all series and fullfilled almost all of his promises so i think it would be fair to him to get everything he wanted or he believed into, like for example sakura 

i think of sasuke, sakura and naruto more like orochimaru, tsunade and jiraiya
do you think that tsunade would like orochimaru if he would come back?! 
forget the looks but what he did was mean just like Sasuke and if we all remember after jiraiya left to find pain tsunade said that if he comes back alive that she won't be so cold hearted to him!
so i think that naruto was always here for sakura, watching over her and fullfiling his promises and that's what matters!
i don't think that sakura would so easily forget what sasuke done.
and i think sasuke already has a new fan of his Karin ^^ 

about hinata... i do agree that naruto makes her to never give up and stuff but isn't that something that friends are for? i understand that hinata has feeling for him that she told him (finally) but i think it would be really weird (cuz hinata is alive) if naruto would come back with the same feelings....
it would become more of a romantic manga/cartoon and that's not exactly what masashi kishimoto wants

when naruto turned into 4th tailed sakura healed him and she kinda took care of him. i don't know if this is true becuse it looked kinda odd to me, maybe they translated it wrong but when sakura was saying that only things she can do for naruto are small and insignificant Yamato said that it's not the size that counts, it's her feelings for naruto, that he can see from a look on her face that she lo..... and then naruto woke up. SO WHAT THE HELL IS LO... SUPOSED TO BE THAN LOVE HIM?! and maybe i rlly watched the wrong translated cartoon, i didn't read manga cuz i started reading from the part that cartoon stoped (the part where orochimaru died) and sakura was later sitting in her room and watching at picture of naruto, sasuke, kakashi and her and she remembered those words and she cried! so....

but all of those are theories that make me feel better cuz i'm rlly kinda down since hinata admited her love.... -.-


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## phoenixblood (Apr 13, 2009)

_*Continuing from last week, sorry for the delay, holiday weekend and all....*_



izzyisozaki said:


> What I'm saying is that romantic influence is supposed to be important. Just look at Hinata or Sakura. The only person to have influenced Sasuke in a significant emotional way in exception of Itachi confirmed and explicit was Naruto. And not even Naruto, who regards Sakura FAR MORE, can put Sakura before his bond with Sasuke. Get what I'm trying to say now? Sakura doesn't deserve to be with someone that has more eyes for his bestfriend, especially who had more eyes for her well-being than he ever did.



Question - in terms of _this series_, is romantic influence supposed to be important, or the most important?  And I think I prefer the term significant over important.  Importance I think carries the connotation of more constant focus - which, using the example of Gaara - they have the very minimum paneltime of interaction - basically one fight.  And yet, Naruto reacts on Sasuke-level rashness and temper.  Because Gaara was that significant to him despite very little focus or paneltime.  In a way, Naruto relates to Gaara like no one else due to their shared fate of being hated jinchuuriki.  Even left Sakura to fight Akatsuki (with others to help) and went after Gaara personally.

That's pretty significant, and yet, it's showcased minimally, with no hint of romance.  And I don't bring this up to downplay other bonds in comparison - because I don't think that's the point - nitpicking who is "more important", because that kind of defeats the message of bonds are important if its readers are arguing over which they rank as THE MOST important.  Especially if we're measuring romance by the same stick, because Kishi has admitted to not really knowing how to write girls, so they get less paneltime.  That doesn't mean the relationships with the girls are less important/significant, just Kishi prefers to write the bromance, so we see a lot more of that than anything else.

Having written all that, I'll now get to what I view as Sakura's influence on Sasuke.

I'll once again bring up Chapter 36 just as an illustration.  This time I want to bring up the point that Sasuke sets aside his normally comparative/competitive nature (a result of his avenger goal) and has no trouble acknowledging an area that Sakura exceeds him.  With Naruto, he's not satisfied if Naruto does more than _tie_ him.  While this does push him, Sakura is someone he can just be a normal person around who isn't quite as obsessed about improving to face Itachi.  Let me bring up more examples where Sakura is someone Sasuke finds comfort in, or someone to talk to (outside of near-death moments).

Chapter 7 - Sasuke didn't need to stay and explain anything.  In fact, he missed his chance for one last attempt before the time was up in order to stay with her until she woke up, and then talked about why he had to try so hard.

Chapter 50 - Sasuke grips Sakura's hand for support.  She provides not only physical comfort to him (hand holding), but tries to give him words of comfort as well.  This also makes me recall when they finally make it through the 2nd round and it is Sakura who Sasuke is willing to lean on for support (Chapter 63).  These are just little things, but things he lets Sakura do for him that I don't recall him looking to anyone else for.

Chapter 56 - I want to draw attention to page 16 in particular.  Look at the close up of their eyes.  This, to me anyway, signifies an emotional connection.  And I believe DB1 also describes this scene as there being an emotional connection between the two, but I'd have to look up Sakura's profile again to refresh my memory.  But my point is Naruto isn't the only one Sasuke feels a connection to.  With Sakura, it's a calming effect, while with Naruto is a driving effect.  Both are important and significant.

Chapter 60 - This takes place after the CS battle, which I think heightened Sasuke's respect for Sakura (although he was always there to protect her in battle, he didn't approve of her lack of skills in battle - see Chapter 46) after she did help fight the Sound.  Anyway, he had wanted to continue fishing and giving Naruto a hard time, but quickly dropped it at Sakura's request.

Chapter 66 - I know Sasuke often gets the credit for being "mean", but this is more a result of what he believes he must do than who he really is.  While yes, the conversation isn't sunshine and kitties, Sasuke does ponder her words.  Like back in Chapter 7 (and later Chapter 181(, he does offer some explanation to her.  He just can't let even Sakura (or Naruto, or Kakashi) stop him.  He does this with all three of them, but for some reason, his bond with Sakura somehow is devalued because of said treatment.  Plus, even though other may view this scene as negative, I still see the fact that Kishi has them have these conversations.  Sakura is standing up to him (out of concern), and Sasuke cedes some explanation.  Scenes like this give me the impression of two people who are important to each other - emotionally equals even - but one is going down a dangerous path, and that's where the negativity comes from, not their relationship.

*I'm running out of time so I'll just jump to one more*

Chapter 138 - This comes after the speech where Sasuke willingly and verbally acknowledges how much Team 7 has come to mean to him - Sakura specifically included as Sasuke directs Naruto to rescue her no matter what while he throws his life away to give them a chance to escape.  Anyway, to further demonstrate that Sakura has become someone of comfort to him, look at his expression as he lays her down.

My goal is not to say that Sakura is more important to Sasuke than Naruto, but that they have their own unique bond that stands on its own, and they relate in a way that Sasuke and Naruto do not; each bond in Team 7 is different.  Naruto has influenced Sasuke as a rival and brother-figure, but Sakura has also softened his heart in a way he can find comfort from Sakura that he won't allow himself with Naruto because of their intense rivalry.  Anyway, wish I had more time to further support this, but oh well, hopefully this will do.



izzyisozaki said:


> Look, being Anti-NaruSaku I can understand an extent at what you're trying to get at - but IMO it's grasping at too many straws and ignoring how reversible that logic is. And saying that "confidence issues" is a _lame thematic excuse_ isn't necessarily aimed at your personal opinion as a whole, it's just my personal opinion that _sometimes_ such considerations really go too far, and I don't see your name written on it to take it personally when I was talking about such general cases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I'll just say I was the first one saying this in the debate thread when chapter 297 was released, and I was called many things because of it.  I will say, though, that one of the respected translators on this forum (although he's been inactive for a long time) read my explanation for a platonic interpretation, and he agreed.  He prefers to remain anonymous because he wants to stay far, far away from the shipping wank on this forum.  But a credible translator on this forum agrees with me (of course, you have to trust that I'm not lying, so it makes it difficult to use this claim as a claim, but I am being honest for what it's worth).

Now, I saw other people come to the same conclusion independent of me on other forums and such - one also a translator, others not - so I'm not taking credit as being the only person to see it this way.  Which I find promising if people came to the same conclusions in isolated areas.  But I admit it is still an interpretation that I associate with myself since I was on the receiving end of a lot of insults here because of it.

Anyway, you may not have insulted me as a person, but basically you are calling my point of view uncredible even when I offer explanation and you have yet to show where it is invalid other than to say you think I am grasping at straws, and calling my use of character development an excuse.  Now if you can provide an adequate case where you demonstrate that the interpretation is illogical or somewhere contradicted - then I welcome you to call it invalid.  But until and unless you do, you are labeling my (and others') interpretation as invalid based solely on your own opinion.  And I do find that insulting.

_*As already mentioned, ran out of time, so I'll continue with your next posts later*_


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## ButterflyGod (Apr 13, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> *Spoiler*: _ Big 3 Rant_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Except for the bolded, I agree with your points, of course what we can consider a "strong and solid base" is merely a difference of opinion. 

*On the sword scenerio:*
*Spoiler*: __ 




May I remind that _it is possible _Sasuke _would not _have attempted to try to run his sword through her had Sakura decided not to attack first. It is _very _possible he would have completely ignored her and not have attempted to harm her.

And on that note, I find it amazing how much of the fault in this Sasuke/Sakura scenerio how much of the blame is set completely and squarely on Sasuke's shoulders when, in fact, it was _Sakura _ who prompted Sasuke to even take this action. Okay, I'll just let her run at me, I have no idea what she intends to do once she reaches me but damn she looks serious! I know, I'll just do nothing and pray for the best! 

Please. I wouldn't do that and neither would any of you. 

This is Sasuke. He doesn't care who you are or what you may or may not have meant to him in the past. If you are running at him with what he sees as an intent to harm or kill, he has every right to defend himself.




I have my opinions on the Big 3 but I'll simply bow out for now.


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## NaruSaku12345 (Apr 13, 2009)

ButterflyGod said:


> Except for the bolded, I agree with your points, of course what we can consider a "strong and solid base" is merely a difference of opinion.
> 
> *On the sword scenerio:*
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Sadly, I highly doubt sasuke would single out Sakura and killed everyone else. Had orochimaru not jumped in, He would  have or could have klled all four of them. He was trying to get rid of all of them so they would leave him alone, he would probably kill sakura first because she started the whole "Rescue sasuke" thing back in volume 21.


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## Takagou (Apr 13, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> ok so i will make this simple
> with all that theories it just looks artificial
> ok so naruto isnt the type of manga/cartoon where there's a lot of "love" and romantic parts. It's just like that... so if we want to make theories i think that there won't be any couples before the last episode/chapter
> so now simple part: naruto likes sakura and that's obvius. we can't know is that love like a crush or a real one but we can make theories  so i am for narusaku because naruto has dreams of his own (hokage and stuff) but he worked so hard through all series and fullfilled almost all of his promises so i think it would be fair to him to get everything he wanted or he believed into, like for example sakura



Because Sakura is just a prize for the hero?  That is her role?  And she has no say in if she gets with him?

I am fully with you that Naruto deserves a great girl at the end for all his hard work; I happen to think that the girl who believed in him all along would be the best choice.  Sakura has been a good friend, but I don't believe Naruto's crush stems beyond just that.  Sakura is in the manga almost as much as Naruto himself, and despite all that screen time, there has been much more heavily involved love from her to Sasuke and from Hinata to Naruto.  None of these are reciprocated, mind you, but they do exist.  Meanwhile, Naruto's feelings for Sakura have always remained on the comedic side.  There has never been a SERIOUS declaration of love and admiration on his part.  So I believe we need BOTH naruto and sakura to give us a big revelation before I start to think she is the right choice for him to be with in the end.


Black Flicka said:


> i think of sasuke, sakura and naruto more like orochimaru, tsunade and jiraiya
> do you think that tsunade would like orochimaru if he would come back?!
> forget the looks but what he did was mean just like Sasuke and if we all remember after jiraiya left to find pain tsunade said that if he comes back alive that she won't be so cold hearted to him!
> so i think that naruto was always here for sakura, watching over her and fullfiling his promises and that's what matters!
> ...


@____@

First I will address your decision that team 7 are like the sanin.  I agree 100%.  Fully, completely, totally agree.  Which is why I don't believe any of them will get together.  People like to forget that Tsunade married and loved a man who was NOT Jiraiya.  She didn't get with Jiraiya or Orochimaru, and I don't think Sakura will get with Naruto or Sasuke...I just don't think the team dynamic is meant to shift that way.  

HOWEVER!  It is a blatant rape of Sakura's character to think she wouldn't be forgiving.  She has one of the kindest hearts of any of the females in Naruto, and she would welcome Sasuke back to Konoha with open arms.  We can debate how she would FEEL about him if he did this, but I am not here to debate SasuSaku   But she would never turn her back on him, she would forgive him immediately.


Black Flicka said:


> about hinata... i do agree that naruto makes her to never give up and stuff but isn't that something that friends are for? i understand that hinata has feeling for him that she told him (finally) but i think it would be really weird (cuz hinata is alive) if naruto would come back with the same feelings....
> it would become more of a romantic manga/cartoon and that's not exactly what masashi kishimoto wants


Because having Sakura randomly show signs of love for naruto after rejecting him for 400+ chapters, realizing her own feelings out of catty, immature jealousy because another girl admitted love for naruto, ISN'T shoujo?  That is so much more romantically involved than Naruto eventually returning Hinata's feelings, which were there all along.  This just goes back to what I first said.  Hinata has established a deep love for Naruto, Sakura for Sasuke, but NOT naruto for sakura.  We need double the development for them to become a couple, which means double the work for kishi when he already has a good deal of development tied with a nice pretty bow for Hinata towards Naruto.  I do agree it'd be random if he came back and suddenly felt the same, but the same can be said for Sakura for Naruto.  I won't deny Naruto isn't in love with Hinata, but Sakura also isn't in love with him.  



Black Flicka said:


> when naruto turned into 4th tailed sakura healed him and she kinda took care of him. i don't know if this is true becuse it looked kinda odd to me, maybe they translated it wrong but when sakura was saying that only things she can do for naruto are small and insignificant Yamato said that it's not the size that counts, it's her feelings for naruto, that he can see from a look on her face that she lo..... and then naruto woke up. SO WHAT THE HELL IS LO... SUPOSED TO BE THAN LOVE HIM?! and maybe i rlly watched the wrong translated cartoon, i didn't read manga cuz i started reading from the part that cartoon stoped (the part where orochimaru died) and sakura was later sitting in her room and watching at picture of naruto, sasuke, kakashi and her and she remembered those words and she cried! so....
> 
> but all of those are theories that make me feel better cuz i'm rlly kinda down since hinata admited her love.... -.-



I'm not the best one here to debate that one.  I BELIEVE it is based off of which translation one reads.  NaruSaku-loving translators tended to put in "lo" while those who did not ship it only said, "Sakura, you really-" I'm not positive on that, so don't quote me if i am wrong.  

I will address the fact that Sakura is a big girl though, and doesn't need somebody else telling her how she feels.  She isn't secretive with her emotions.  She was horrified by naruto and lee...then they became her friends and she has defended them with all her might ever since.  I trust Sakura to know how she feels.  Until SHE tells me she loves Naruto, not a guy who has known her for two days, I won't believe it.  

With that, may the best pairing win


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## mystic868 (Apr 13, 2009)

From comedy to real thing, not obvious from beginning to make us believe it's one big joke and youth adrenaline than sth really serious. In addition some minor romantic feelings to create hard-to-understand mix of complicated storyline and platonic/real love/friendship. That's what in my opinion is N/NS and the most unpredicted thread is Naruto-Sakura relationship from completely harsh across friendship to sth really nice like platonic love and maybe real love at the ending


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## Miss Happy (Apr 13, 2009)

WriterforHire said:


> I'm baaaaack!
> This was the distinction I made to cuteyume (below). While we never see in the manga panels Sakura openly stopping and wondering why she "loves" Sasuke, that does not mean she hasn't done it. There's a great deal of things that goes on behind the scenes, and considering Sakura's fangirlish attitude for the first half of the manga, *I'm pretty sure she thought of Sasuke and her feelings for Sasuke regularly, and I'm quite sure she also wondered why she kept "loving" him even when it became clear, in Team 7, that he didn't care for her in that way*. The answer to which, is the same answer to why Naruto still cares for Sakura although she does not reciprocate his feelings...at least not yet.


I'm  a sasusaku fan who never thought that sasuke loved sakura in that way!
The reason why i still ship  sasusaku is because i strongly believe that one day he will reciprocate her feelings
At this point in the manga there is no evidence that she gave up on sasuke and i also don't think sakura will ever give up on sasuke
But that's just me!


> Indeed, I can too. And that's neither for nor against. But it's a fact that many should realize. A good deal of development and moments can happen in between each chapter, before each chapter, and after each chapter, but it always stays within its bounds. For instance, while there might be a scene where Sakura and Shikamaru meet while walking down a road and greet each other that Kishi never decides to write into the manga, there can never be a scene where Sakura spends several months, or years, with Shikamaru, Choji and Ino while they go off on missions, something that important Kishi would inevitably add in should it actually occur. So, while we can say that Sakura probably has thought of Sasuke more often then we see in the actual manga, we can not say that Sasuke has secretly "opened up his heart" to Sakura behind the scenes, for that directly contradicts what is seen in the manga. Canon must rule. One way or another.


I'm a  sasusaku fan that knows that sasuke hasn't secretly opened up his heart to sakura and probably never will!


> Ah. But you see. These are his inner thoughts. The most sacred and locked up part of a person, their innermost mind. How are we to know that those images were what he was consciously thinking of, or whether they were part of his subconscious? Could it not be that some deep part of him, a part he is trying to kill off, holds them more dearly then he would like to admit? I think that's the best way to explain it. He has formed his new team. He has made new companions, to, in essence, replace the old ones. He tried to kill them off. Scare them off. He does not want them around. He dismissed them. But yet, despite himself, he still thinks about them. The bond is there, but he wants it to be gone.


True damn it!That's true!



> This, of course, can?t be a good thing for either Sasusaku or Narusasu.


even truer!


it's *truer* even a word?


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## Kakugo (Apr 13, 2009)

Takagou said:


> Because Sakura is just a prize for the hero?  That is her role?  And she has no say in if she gets with him?
> 
> I am fully with you that Naruto deserves a great girl at the end for all his hard work; I happen to think that the girl who believed in him all along would be the best choice.  Sakura has been a good friend, but I don't believe Naruto's crush stems beyond just that.  Sakura is in the manga almost as much as Naruto himself, and despite all that screen time, there has been much more heavily involved love from her to Sasuke and from Hinata to Naruto.  None of these are reciprocated, mind you, but they do exist.  Meanwhile, Naruto's feelings for Sakura have always remained on the comedic side.  There has never been a SERIOUS declaration of love and admiration on his part.  So I believe we need BOTH naruto and sakura to give us a big revelation before I start to think she is the right choice for him to be with in the end.



I agree and I disagree with this segment. I do absolutely agree in that Naruto is indeed deserving of a great girl who would best suit him, and I also disagree to the idea of Sakura being regarded as a "prize." Though to say that Naruto has never shown any portrayals of love or admiration towards Sakura is, I believe, false.

For now I'm not going to go the extra mile to highlight every minimal portrayal which shows any indications in favor of NaruSaku, though I will list a few just to demonstrate my point.

First example in part 2:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Sakura's medical skills put to the test to save Kankuro, followed by Naruto's dumb stricken face. I will not say for sure that this scene emits signs of "love" per say, though more than certainly admiration to say the least. If this scene were not important, I don't believe the extent taken to really emphasize on this scene would have been taken; both in the anime, as well as the manga.




Second example in part 2:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, once again, the "Ramen" scene.



I do personally find this scene relatively important because it demonstrates another example as to how and why the NaruSaku relationship is far from that of a Brother/Sister type analogy. This scene portrays to me not only how much Sakura herself has grown and matured (especially in comparison to part 1,) but it also clearly shows that Naruto does indeed still harbor feelings for her. As to how strong those feelings are, well, certainly til this point its still left to individual interpretation; nonetheless though, those feelings ARE still present. I highly, highly doubt that given his persistent and "never give up" personality would his feelings for Sakura deplete, *regardless* of whether or not she chose to be with someone else.




There's of course other examples for Naruto's signs of "love and admiration," but I'll leave it here for now.



Takagou said:


> @____@
> 
> First I will address your decision that team 7 are like the sanin.  I agree 100%.  Fully, completely, totally agree.  Which is why I don't believe any of them will get together.  People like to forget that Tsunade married and loved a man who was NOT Jiraiya.  She didn't get with Jiraiya or Orochimaru, and I don't think Sakura will get with Naruto or Sasuke...I just don't think the team dynamic is meant to shift that way.
> 
> HOWEVER!  It is a blatant rape of Sakura's character to think she wouldn't be forgiving.  She has one of the kindest hearts of any of the females in Naruto, and she would welcome Sasuke back to Konoha with open arms.  We can debate how she would FEEL about him if he did this, but I am not here to debate SasuSaku   But she would never turn her back on him, she would forgive him immediately.



I understand that metaphors and theories are not permitted into this discussion, so I will do my best to refrain myself from doing so. I do need to make mention though of a segment in the manga which very much directs the the "legendary sanin" and the "team 7" differences.


*Spoiler*: __ 







Jiraiya had made mention of that he wishes for Naruto to accomplish the things in life that he himself was unable to accomplish himself. There's no debating of course that the core of Jiraya's expectancy for Naruto is for him to find the answer to "peace" in a world of hatred and violence, though it *does* leave you to also consider the importance of these very points in which that were highlighted in these panels above. Naruto's predicaments are nearly identical to that of what Jiraiya's were; and given Naruto is considered the "child of prophecy," hes not only expected to achieve what the others before him have not, but I'm sure Naruto would ultimately have those same expectations of himself as well.

Not to mention that getting turned down repeatedly will only make a man stronger, as stated by Jiraiya himself.






Takagou said:


> Because having Sakura randomly show signs of love for naruto after rejecting him for 400+ chapters, realizing her own feelings out of catty, immature jealousy because another girl admitted love for naruto, ISN'T shoujo?  That is so much more romantically involved than Naruto eventually returning Hinata's feelings, which were there all along.  This just goes back to what I first said.  Hinata has established a deep love for Naruto, Sakura for Sasuke, but NOT naruto for sakura.  We need double the development for them to become a couple, which means double the work for kishi when he already has a good deal of development tied with a nice pretty bow for Hinata towards Naruto.  I do agree it'd be random if he came back and suddenly felt the same, but the same can be said for Sakura for Naruto.  I won't deny Naruto isn't in love with Hinata, but Sakura also isn't in love with him.



I very, very much detest the idea of Sakura suddenly and openly declaring her "love" for Naruto because of Hinata's confession towards him. I do believe that Sakura harbor's romantic feelings for Naruto, and perhaps much more so than she herself can depict; though that's the issue. Her feelings, despite the portrayal of compassion and vaguely romantic expressions in notable segments of the manga, have not fully come into fruition yet. You are right however, that it's no guarantee of whats to come of Sakura's feelings for Naruto in the near future given the recent events, but to exclude the possibility of Sakura coming to terms and realization of that her feelings for Naruto may indeed be romantic is unjustifiable.  

As far as the topic of Hinata's confession, certainly her act of bravery is more than commendable. Though sincerely, my interpretation of that scene depicted from *personal* development on Hinata's part, more than so much for NaruHina. Hinata has been long awaiting a chance to be put into the spot light after much absence and neglect of panel time, and she was much deserving of an opportunity to demonstrate that she, as an *individual*, has grown and changed. She has indeed demonstrated that when it comes down to it, she bears no fear in being serious given the situation at hand. I still do not understand, however, how this is reflective of mutual development between herself and Naruto, though that is of course until we see what Naruto's own reaction will be on the matter once hes given the opportunity to do so.



Takagou said:


> I'm not the best one here to debate that one.  I BELIEVE it is based off of which translation one reads.  NaruSaku-loving translators tended to put in "lo" while those who did not ship it only said, "Sakura, you really-" I'm not positive on that, so don't quote me if i am wrong.
> 
> I will address the fact that Sakura is a big girl though, and doesn't need somebody else telling her how she feels.  She isn't secretive with her emotions.  She was horrified by naruto and lee...then they became her friends and she has defended them with all her might ever since.  I trust Sakura to know how she feels.  Until SHE tells me she loves Naruto, not a guy who has known her for two days, I won't believe it.



Well, this segment I have mixed feelings about frankly. I do believe though that there is a more than plausible explanation as to why this scene was even brought about. If Yamato's observation of Sakura's feelings for Naruto were left to be ill interpreted or misjudged as "what the hell does this guy know," then not only do I think that this scene would be far less important than what it is, but it also wouldn't have been remotely emphasized. It was obviously important enough to be brought to the readers attention that Sakura's feelings are going through a huge, huge shift in direction; though to leave the suspense built, it was not stated openly as to whether or not she loves him. Nonetheless, this scene would be left insignificant or completely unnecessary if Sakura's feelings haven't changed; because if they haven't, then why the "waste" of panel time?


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## Forlong (Apr 13, 2009)

Okay, I'm sorry I can't read this whole thread.  Over 40 pages makes that a little hard.

Anyway, SasuSaku doesn't seem likely.  What Sakura said "I love you", Sasuke responded "You're annoying".  Not exactly the king of romance there.  And he's tried to murder Naruto twice.  So, Sakura has no reason to hold on to those feelings for Sasuke.  She's had three years to reflect on how Sasuke treated her.  I think that's enough time to decide that he's not worth it.

The closest we'll get to a SasuSaku moment is Sakura _not_ killing Sasuke after kicking his ass.  Yes, she will fight him!  She will kick his ass!  And it will be awesome! 

Now NaruHina and NaruSaku is the _real_ debate.

Here's what I think:

*Spoiler*: __ 



After Hinata recovers, Naruto will decide that he needs to know how Sakura feels about him before he decides who he'll be with.  He tries several times to ask her, but gets interupted every time.  When he finnally manages to ask, Sakura _lies_ and tells him that she doesn't love him.  She does this because she believes Hinata deserves Naruto more than she does, and she wants her beloved to be happy. 

Maybe Sakura will see Naruto going on a date with Hinata and get a pained look on her face.  Hinata will confront her and find out about how Sakura feels about Naruto.



As for who Naruto will choose, I'm not sure anymore.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 13, 2009)

I think that there is a small possibility that less important people, like Lee and Hinata (not less important, i don't know the word for it, just not main characters...) could get what they want. Like Lee gets Sakura and Hinata gets Naruto. But I don't like to think in that way . I just don't think that masashi kishimoto would make naruto and sakura relationship so complicated and mysterious that we need to guess who is feeling what if he doesn't need something with that. 

And about Sasuke. Narusaku fans like to think about sasuhina. I must say i thought about it and i realized that sasuke practically didn't spoke with hinata not even once. (maybe he did, i can't remember, but if it was some important talk i would remember) don't you think that's kinda weird?

And sakura already said she is in love with sasuke, so if sasuke comes back it wouldn't be the same. there wouldn't be any "magic" in it again. masashi gave the pair their chance so the fans don't need to ask themselves what would be, if it would be. the same thing is with hinata. if naruto loves her back it would turn into kissing, loving, romantic manga. and that's just not the real personality of the manga. so i think masashi is giving naruhina a chance. i think that's fair because sakura had her chance with sasuke and now naruto and sakura are even. 

And now I'll refer to a cartoon again (didn't read that part of manga -.-) when I say that when Naruto hurt Sakura in the 4th tailed form and she was sitting by the tree, he came really close to her and she blushed! So that gotta mean something. She wouldn't blushed if Chouji or someone else was on his place (he would probably punch him), so.....


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## Black Flicka (Apr 13, 2009)

okay, so that's true Hinata deserves him more
but masashi developed narusaku relationship from the begining! sure, sasusaku had their moments in part 1 but even in part 1 narusaku relationship became more mature and serious. 

and now i'll quote narusaku fans:
i think that naruto is sakura's inspiration, hope and shield like i said before and that's worth more than anything else. sure you can say that for naruhina too, that naruto is her inspiration but sakura is naruto's inpiration too. naruto and sakura cheer each other on. each of them finds the other to be a inspiration to become stronger and a better ninja. they are a source of hope for each other. and they enjoy each other's company. despite of their worries for sasuke, they still have fun. what started as irritation on sakura's side has turned into friendly banter. sakura still insults him or pops him, but it's with affectionate undertones. sakura even enjoys some of naruto's antics. they've become comfortable around each other and can be themselves. i think they've both matured enormously and have been willing to give up their own dreams to help the other. like in the first chuunin exam, sakura was willing to sink her own chances to advance in order to protect naruto's dream of becoming Hokage. And she's tried to let naruto out of his promise of a lifetime twice after seeing what he's gone through. naruto's best example of that selflessness is the same promise of a lifetime. they're both ready to support and help out the other whenever the other needs it. 

we have been reading this manga from the start. and we have seen the long ways naruto and sakura have come. manga readers have gotten the point; have even gone as far as to say that masashi has been pushing narusaku down the throats of his readers since part II started. masashi has been driving a point across from the start, and that is that good things take a while to come. that you need to work your ass off for them. narusaku is the same. through whole manga, narusaku and sasuke's and naruto's friendship have been the relationships to get more spotlight. and that's fact.
so why in the world would masashi waste a relationship he has spent SO MUCH TIME, developing over new one that he didn't give a damn about for over 200 chapters? logically, it makes no sense. it won't happen. 

sakura was the girl he fell in love with and this was quite obviously so not even in the numerous times he saved her life even risking his own. and you can say that naruto had a crash on sakura. that's not a real love. but if i remember right when naruto watched with a sad smile how sakura hugged sasuke he said:
"If she's happy, then I'll be happy as well"
this, this is the truest form of true love. selfless, true love is what ties these two. 
why would something as precious as this be swayed by the confession of a girl, whose intentions even though pure, hasn't interacted with him at all? 

the possibility of naruhina exists. of course it does. but why would masashi do it? why waste so much time, years, and effort giving another pairing everything and more of what he could have given naruhina? please. and there isn't even the possibility of us misinterpreting narusaku's bond as something it is not, because it has been SO CLEARLY hinted at to be romantic that I seriously have to shake my head at those who deny it. so what if sakura hasn't confessed yet? i would be dissapointed as hell if naruto's reaction to sakura's confession was merely that panel with a o.o face that hinata got. no, when sakura and naruto's relationship reaches their prime we'll have something HUGE, because narusaku has been HUGE from the start. it won't be a sudden thing pulled out of nowhere as plot-device to get him to go kyuubi, or a closure to one of their themes. it'll be the future for both them, as simply as that. and probably the last step that sakura needs to give as a character for her to stop being "selfish" as masashi titles her. So all in all, NaruSaku can't be doubted, because it IS there, clear as the day to see. because at the end, narusaku will still stand as the most beautiful and well-developed relationship in the manga.

HELL YEAH!


----------



## Renxx (Apr 13, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> I think that there is a small possibility that less important people, like Lee and Hinata (not less important, i don't know the word for it, just not main characters...) could get what they want. Like Lee gets Sakura and Hinata gets Naruto. But I don't like to think in that way . I just don't think that masashi kishimoto would make naruto and sakura relationship so complicated and mysterious that we need to guess who is feeling what if he doesn't need something with that.



We don't even know if Lee still likes Sakura. Nothing in part 2 has shown that, and the databook had nothing about it.
I find it more likely for Hinata to get Naruto. I don't think Naruto likes her yet, but he has shown that he _could_.
Ever heard about a red herring? NaruSaku is probably that in Naruto. Hinata has been out of the spotlight for so long, and Naruto and Sakura have been since they're in the same team and all. It's only normal for their relationship to develop, but doesn't mean it will develop into _romance_ and it's too late for that now. I just can't see Sakura realizing hidden romantic feelings for Naruto after being his friend for so long. That and her attitude towards Naruto _romanticly _hasn't changed: whenever he asks her out for dates, she still says no, and doesn't even hesitate. Sure she tried to feed him, after she had a flashback on what Naruto said to her about Sasuke(that they were getting closer to _Sasuke). _That scene was similar to the bell test in part 1, when Sasuke feeds Naruto and Sakura feeds him too just because Sasuke is doing it. Sasuke (or the mention of him) was present in both scenes, and was who "pushed" Sakura to feed Naruto.



Black Flicka said:


> And about Sasuke. Narusaku fans like to think about sasuhina. I must say i thought about it and i realized that sasuke practically didn't spoke with hinata not even once. (maybe he did, i can't remember, but if it was some important talk i would remember) don't you think that's kinda weird?



Lol. SasuHina. They never talked to each other, or felt attracted to one another. So, as a canon couple? No.



Black Flicka said:


> And sakura already said she is in love with sasuke, so if sasuke comes back it wouldn't be the same. there wouldn't be any "magic" in it again. masashi gave the pair their chance so the fans don't need to ask themselves what would be, if it would be. the same thing is with hinata. if naruto loves her back it would turn into kissing, loving, romantic manga. and that's just not the real personality of the manga. so i think masashi is giving naruhina a chance. i think that's fair because sakura had her chance with sasuke and now naruto and sakura are even.



Magic? If Sasuke comes back, Sakura's chance to be with him just goes sky high. I don't think they will automaticly get together, but I sure don't see any logic in Sakura being with Naruto, and Sasuke just getting pushed aside. The team wouldn't be balanced at all:
Naruto<likes>Sakura
Sasuke<brother/best friend>Naruto
Sasuke<friend?>Sakura (Sasuke and Sakura's relationship has never been based on friendship, so in comparison to NaruSaku and NaruSasu, it would be pretty weak.)
Now if Sakura and Sasuke got together: Naruto and Sakura would have a strong friendship. Sasuke and Naruto would have an even stronger one. And Naruto would have Hinata (outside of the team), so things would _not _be bad for him.



Black Flicka said:


> And now I'll refer to a cartoon again (didn't read that part of manga -.-) when I say that when Naruto hurt Sakura in the 4th tailed form and she was sitting by the tree, he came really close to her and she blushed! So that gotta mean something. She wouldn't blushed if Chouji or someone else was on his place (he would probably punch him), so.....


That doesn't happen in the manga. 
Seriously, I get the feeling the anime team is trying to build up NaruSaku to get more ratings...


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## Milkshake (Apr 13, 2009)

ButterflyGod said:


> Except for the bolded, I agree with your points, of course what we can consider a "strong and solid base" is merely a difference of opinion.
> 
> *On the sword scenerio:*
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I agree with your point ; I assume he probably didn't think of her as worthy; her being completely weak the last time he had seen her, so his face while she attempting to attack told me that he was appauled that she would pull such a bold move. He probably would've ignored her had she not done it; but if Sasuke can break one of his most important bonds with Naruto, I don't see why he wouldn't have with Sakura as well by killing her. At the end of it all he was going to kill everyone; including Sakura.

As for the Kushina -> Sakura reference; I disagree. Kushina's personality hasn't been explained throughly for anyone to think she is comparable to Sakura, but the atrributes that she do have of her are; 'that she was big-mouthed, loud, and has much of Naruto's personality, she was also a tomboy'. Sakura is not a tomboy, she wears skirts each timeskip and she isn't lazy, and focuses alot on her looks both timeskips. She uisn't training savy, she has little to none boyish attributes period, other than her being as flat-chested as one. You don't have enough information on Kushina to compare her to anyone at this point, so that comparision is invalid.


Once again as of now Sakura's feelings are still in the air; her feelings are definitely changing but nothing specific to state that she has romantic feelings for Naruto as of yet. If Sakura isn't questioned; she doesn't address her feelings for Naruto, and until she does clearly address him to him or anyone else, I will name her bond with Naruto ambigious.


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## mystic868 (Apr 13, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> sakura was the girl he fell in love with and this was quite obviously so not even in the numerous times he saved her life even risking his own. and you can say that naruto had a crash on sakura. that's not a real love. but if i remember right when naruto watched with a sad smile how sakura hugged sasuke he said:
> *"If she's happy, then I'll be happy as well"*
> this, this is the truest form of true love. selfless, true love is what ties these two.
> why would something as precious as this be swayed by the confession of a girl, whose intentions even though pure, hasn't interacted with him at all?
> ...


That's really nice argument but can you say exactly where it was written in manga? I just want to read it


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## Milkshake (Apr 13, 2009)

Wait?  Naruto never said anything in response to his hug, he just had a sad smile on his face, or which one I do not know. I don't know where you got this from Black Flicka.


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## Sage (Apr 13, 2009)

Takagou said:


> Because Sakura is just a prize for the hero?  That is her role?  And she has no say in if she gets with him?
> 
> I am fully with you that Naruto deserves a great girl at the end for all his hard work; I happen to think that the girl who believed in him all along would be the best choice.  Sakura has been a good friend, but I don't believe Naruto's crush stems beyond just that.  Sakura is in the manga almost as much as Naruto himself, and *despite all that screen time, there has been much more heavily involved love from her to Sasuke and from Hinata to Naruto.*  None of these are reciprocated, mind you, but they do exist.  Meanwhile, Naruto's feelings for Sakura have always remained on the comedic side.  There has never been a SERIOUS declaration of love and admiration on his part.  So I believe we need BOTH naruto and sakura to give us a big revelation before I start to think she is the right choice for him to be with in the end.
> 
> With that, may the best pairing win



durr? are you reading the same manga as everyone else?


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## Milkshake (Apr 13, 2009)

^ I dissagree as well. When in the hell has she been seen talking or thinking about Sasuke if he isn't brought up, and when did Naruto think about Hinata? Even more than that, love?


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## Takagou (Apr 13, 2009)

Never said naruto thought about hinata  .  He is as in love with her as Sasuke is with Sakura and sakura is with naruto.  ...Aka, not at all 

What I mean is that the manga as a WHOLE has developed Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and Hinata's for naruto much more than Naruto for sakura's.  Besides Naruto doing the normal things, such as saving her life (why wouldn't he?  He likes her x.x ) and being a bit emo over sakura wanting the sauce more than him, he hasn't had the grand, grab sakura, tell her she means the world to him, say that he LOVES her, emphasis on how his feelings are dramatic, and unchanging moment....it hasn't happened.  I understand he crushes, but I am not convinced that Kishi has provided nearly enough serious development on Naruto's feelings for Sakura.  He _likes_ her, but I want to read a serious Daisuki, not a half assed attempt at a date.


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## Renxx (Apr 13, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> ^ I dissagree as well. When in the hell has she been seen talking or thinking about Sasuke if he isn't brought up, and when did Naruto think about Hinata? Even more than that, love?



You expect Sakura to rub in Naruto's face that she _really really really really _wants Sasuke back? Naruto already knows that. They both want him back. For their own reasons. Sure you can say how selfless his promise to bring back the guy she loves was, but he clearly isn't bringing him back just for her.
And did you notice that, the only time we saw Sakura alone in part 2, she was crying over a team 7 picture (a tiny detail: her thumb was on Sasuke's part of the photo). So what tells us that she doesn't do that more often than we know? In front of Naruto, she keeps all her feelings in, but when she's alone, that happens.
And by the way, Naruto has been thinking about Hinata quite a bit in the latest chapters... Obviously doesn't mean he loves her, but she must be one of the most important people for him at this point.


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## Milkshake (Apr 13, 2009)

Ren said:


> You expect Sakura to rub in Naruto's face that she _really really really really _wants Sasuke back? Naruto already knows that. They both want him back. For their own reasons. Sure you can say how selfless his promise to bring back the guy she loves was, but he clearly isn't bringing him back just for her.
> And did you notice that, the only time we saw Sakura alone in part 2, she was crying over a team 7 picture (a tiny detail: her thumb was on Sasuke's part of the photo). So what tells us that she doesn't do that more often than we know? In front of Naruto, she keeps all her feelings in, but when she's alone, that happens.
> And by the way, Naruto has been thinking about Hinata quite a bit in the latest chapters... Obviously doesn't mean he loves her, but she must be one of the most important people for him at this point.



Correct; Naruto and Sakura want Sasuke back for their own reasons however Sakura's reasons are heavily influenced by Naruto's as well. Around the KN4 arc, she became to realize how much Naruto too was hurt by the loss of Sasuke, and with that became even more motivated to get Sasuke back _ for Naruto_ Don't ignore this aspect as well. Sakura has yet to elaborate on any of her feelings for Sasuke but to say that she still loves him romantically is pushing it too far; there isn't enough evidence to deny or agree with this. Sakura cares for Sasuke, he's her first 'love' and teammate. That time where she was crying can also be called for more of a T7 moment that a SasuSaku moment, because she could've been crying because she wants Sasuke back _for the team;_ for everyone's happiness. P2S is learning to be selfless with those around her; unlike her P1 self. Sakura still feels that pain of losing Sasuke as well, but once again nothing can be concluded that she still loves him. There's nothing specifically apparant to debate on.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, Naruto has been thinking about Hinata in quite the few chapters, yanno having remembering that she was indeed unconcious due to Pain's attack, he would be worrying about and thinking about her more because he doesn't want to lose someone who was a fellow comrade to his villiage and has always been sincerely nice to him. One thing however; if Tenten had token that shot, wouldn't you think he'd be thinking about her as well? Important person is somewhat pushing too far; saying that Naruto hasn't talked to Hinata since the confession, and hasn't established any gratitude to her as of yet; I'm not even sure if he remembers the confession from his flashbacks.


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## The Duchess (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm not sure if red herrings have been brought up here or not, but I've noticed that in many debates, NS's been labeled as a "red herring" throughout the whole series. For anybody who still believes that, here's my two cents. Feel free to debate.

A red herring is a fake clue or hint, right? Generally used in mysteries to throw off the readers to make them believe that something is going to happen or end a certain way. Lemme ask you something: _would a red herring really be dragged out for such a long period of time?_

Sounds kinda desperate, to be honest.

Anyway, ever since chapter 437, NH's been widely declared as set in stone, meant to be, blah blah blah. Not by all NH shippers of course, but a good majority of them. Now think, exactly how many chapters has this recent NH development gotten? Let's see:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's confession in chapter 437, and Hinata waking up from her healing in chapter 443.




1 + 1 = 2

And people claim that "all this development means that NH HAS to happen, because Kishi's given it so much panel time."

Two chapters.

My point is that a red herring should be around that length (probably a little longer, like four chapters, because Hinata's feelings still need that resolution). Not practically all of Part 2.

It screams a double standard, because people are expecting huge love exclaimations and such from NS (no matter how much development), while only two chapters is all NH needs to become canon in the future.

That's where complacency gets you.


----------



## Kathutet (Apr 13, 2009)

Ren said:


> Lol. SasuHina. They never talked to each other, or felt attracted to one another. So, as a canon couple? No.


This has GOT to be the best double standard I've seen.
Congraturations, a winrar is you.



> Magic? If Sasuke comes back, Sakura's chance to be with him just goes sky high. I don't think they will automaticly get together, but I sure don't see any logic in Sakura being with Naruto, and Sasuke just getting pushed aside. The team wouldn't be balanced at all:
> Naruto<likes>Sakura
> Sasuke<brother/best friend>Naruto
> Sasuke<friend?>Sakura (Sasuke and Sakura's relationship has never been based on friendship, so in comparison to NaruSaku and NaruSasu, it would be pretty weak.)
> Now if Sakura and Sasuke got together: Naruto and Sakura would have a strong friendship. Sasuke and Naruto would have an even stronger one. And Naruto would have Hinata (outside of the team), so things would _not _be bad for him.


Do you honestly think he'll be interested now? He hasn't shown any interest in her. Any. He thanked her and moved on.

The team is a love triangle, where's the imbalance? It's always been like this.


> That doesn't happen in the manga.
> Seriously, I get the feeling the anime team is trying to build up NaruSaku to get more ratings...


Talking about humorous comments. I do recall the majority of the fillers having NaruHina in them...


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 13, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Naruto has been thinking about Hinata in quite the few chapters, yanno having remembering that she was indeed unconcious due to Pain's attack, he would be worrying about and thinking about her more because he doesn't want to lose someone who was a fellow comrade to his villiage and has always been sincerely nice to him. One thing however; if Tenten had token that shot, wouldn't you think he'd be thinking about her as well? Important person is somewhat pushing too far; saying that Naruto hasn't talked to Hinata since the confession, and hasn't established any gratitude to her as of yet; I'm not even sure if he remembers the confession from his flashbacks.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I would think so.   

Naruto would've been concerned no matter who it was.  But NaruHina fans are expecting more out Naruto thinking about Hinata, because of her confession.   Yet, Naruto isn't specifically thinking about Hinata, but others as well.  

So in the end, it wouldn't matter if it was Sakura, Tsunade, TenTen, Neji, or whoever, they would've been thought of as much as Hinata was.






EarthBenderGal said:


> I'm not sure if red herrings have been brought up here or not, but I've noticed that in many debates, NS's been labeled as a "red herring" throughout the whole series. For anybody who still believes that, here's my two cents. Feel free to debate.
> 
> A red herring is a fake clue or hint, right? Generally used in mysteries to throw off the readers to make them believe that something is going to happen or end a certain way. Lemme ask you something: _would a red herring really be dragged out for such a long period of time?_
> 
> ...



Oh dear, that _old_ arguement again.  

Certain people who were against NaruSaku brought up that arugument a few years ago, saying NaruSaku was a "Red Herring", which perpetuates until today.

People, "Red Herrings" are for mysteries, in determining the "real culprit", not for pairings.

Even if it was, Red Herrings are established _after_ the first couple of chapters in establishing characters and motives.   Like in mysteries in establishing the crime and the possibilities.  So NaruSaku couldn't be it, because it was the _first_ established pairing in the manga, because Naruto expressed his interest in Sakura before she expressed her interest in Sasuke.

Second, Red Herrings are more prominent in distracting the reader from the truth.  Which I find ironic, because as we seen here in this very pairing debate thread, many people claim they don't see NaruSaku.  

Third, Red Herrings are not despelled until the end when the truth is revealed.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's nor Sakura's confessions are not at the end.  So by the rules of Red Herring establishment, these would be the Red Herrings.




So all in all, I have to disagree to those who claim NaruSaku is "Red Herring"m because it doesn't follow the basic rules.  However, certain other pairings do.


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## saasha (Apr 13, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> Correct; Naruto and Sakura want Sasuke back for their own reasons however Sakura's reasons are heavily influenced by Naruto's as well. Around the KN4 arc, she became to realize how much Naruto too was hurt by the loss of Sasuke, and with that became even more motivated to get Sasuke back _ for Naruto_ Don't ignore this aspect as well.



No one is ignoring it. The fact remains that she's not doing it for Naruto _alone_. They want him back- for their own individual selves, for Sasuke, for each other, for Kakashi & for Team 7. ( I don't see how this implies that the target of her romantic feelings has shifted from sasuke to naruto?)

The Question is why does Sakura want him back for herself? It is quite clear why naruto wants him back for himself but Sakura obviously doesn't see sasuke as her brother or she would have come out & said it. 

Friendship? Were they even friends? Was sasuke ever friends with her? He was definitely there for her in his own odd way but they never approached each other as friends. What they had was an awkward tension-filled emotional connection. Their bond is undefined as of now. ( Some of you even claim he never cared about her beyond comraderie & she's come to terms with this)

Considering this, I find it odd that people believe she desperately wants to save sasuke because she values his friendship. I mean, seriously, you dont think its odd that she would want so badly to save sasuke simply because of friendship? Especially when he wasn't exactly a good friend to her. Their role in each other's lives can't be so easily defined as friendship, because that was never the basis of their bond. 




> Sakura has yet to elaborate on any of her feelings for Sasuke but to say that she still loves him romantically is pushing it too far; there isn't enough evidence to deny or agree with this. Sakura cares for Sasuke, he's her first 'love' and teammate. That time where she was crying can also be called for more of a T7 moment that a SasuSaku moment, because she could've been crying because she wants Sasuke back _for the team;_ for everyone's happiness. P2S is learning to be selfless with those around her; unlike her P1 self. Sakura still feels that pain of losing Sasuke as well, but once again nothing can be concluded that she still loves him.



How do you figure that? Her romantic feelings for him have already been established in part 1 & also through flashbacks of each of their farewell scenes with sasuke at the beginning of Part 2 which to me strongly indicates that their reasons for wanting sasuke back haven't changed from part one at all. While all of your reasons for sakura crying alone make sense, none of them disprove the fact that she still feels as strongly for Sasuke as ever.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Naruto has been thinking about Hinata in quite the few chapters, yanno having remembering that she was indeed unconcious due to Pain's attack, he would be worrying about and thinking about her more because he doesn't want to lose someone who was a fellow comrade to his villiage and has always been sincerely nice to him. One thing however; if Tenten had token that shot, wouldn't you think he'd be thinking about her as well? Important person is somewhat pushing too far; saying that Naruto hasn't talked to Hinata since the confession, and hasn't established any gratitude to her as of yet; I'm not even sure if he remembers the confession from his flashbacks.



Hypothetical situations involving other girls doesn't do much for your argument. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Hinata was the one he thought of & Hinata was the only one who would have confessed to him while doing what she did. 


 Whether you like it or not, Hinata isn't merely a 'comrade of the village who was sincerely nice to him'. She has always been included as one of his important people along with lee, neji, sakura, gaara....etc. 

So, let me get this straight, your saying that because Naruto didn't say 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 'Hinata, the girl who just confessed her love to me', it makes you doubt that he even remembers her confession


 .. Atleast that's what your post clearly implied.


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## Kathutet (Apr 13, 2009)

saasha said:


> Hypothetical situations involving other girls doesn't do much for your argument.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


No, allow me to intrude.

Did you know that _every single person_ in Konoha is Naruto's important person? That's the hokage's mindset that Kishi's given him. Everyone.

Oh, he was also thinking of the villagers, but obviously Hinata > villagers. Great. _Yokatta!_ Hinata and The villagers are alright.

So let me get this straight; you're saying that because of this confession, he will not only give her a chance, but put her above his first love as well? You know, the pink dot in the distance (for many among you) that keeps annoying her Sasuke-kun?

At least, that's what I've read.


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## Milkshake (Apr 13, 2009)

* @ Saasha*



			
				 Me  said:
			
		

> Correct; Naruto and Sakura want Sasuke back for their own reasons however Sakura's reasons are heavily influenced by Naruto's as well.



When have I stated that she is doing this for Naruto _alone?_ I clearly stated that Sakura has her _ own reasons as well for wanting Sasuke back and I never said anything about Sakura's romantic status shifting over from him to Naruto. _ 

Your correct; there's no correct basis for their bond. You can't even call them 'friends' in my eyes. Sasuke knows little about Sakura and never even attempts to try to know her. Whenever their in the same room together; he's simply quietly thinking (as displayed in the hospital screen) while Sakura is trying to pursue him in ways in which he said that he wasn't up for. Sakura doesn't know much about Sasuke other than he's a Uchiha, and that little snippet he shared with him about Itachi. Also the things she researched over the timeskip. So what do they share? Being on the same team and growing together T7 was what solely brought them close to 'important comrades'. Sakura was cared for Sasuke in the bad times, and Sasuke learned to respect that and as a comrade/teammate; he did the same for her because he knew wasn't in the position to do so herself as well. 

And where is this 'desperately wanting to save Sasuke' coming from? She's not nearly as desperated as said 'brother' Naruto in this ambition, she barely speaks of him enough, but is shown to have visual concern and worry in him. She might miss him but she isn't hopping up everyday- Sasuke on her mind 24/7 trying to find him and trying to train more so she and Naruto can both save him. Once again, she's concerned for him as a being, a lost teammate, and a 'first love'. *There is not ANYTHING to point out whether she feels romantically for Sasuke or not. Her side with both Naruto AND Sasuke is rather ambigious at this point.*



			
				 You said:
			
		

> How do you figure that? Her romantic feelings for him have already been established in part 1 & also through flashbacks of each of their farewell scenes with sasuke at the beginning of Part 2 which to me strongly indicates that their reasons for wanting sasuke back haven't changed from part one at all. While all of your reasons for sakura crying alone make sense, none of them disprove the fact that she still feels as strongly for Sasuke as ever.



Part I and Part II are two different scenerios to this plot; and obviously Sakura underwent a huge characteristic development in maturing and with that _ learning to be selfless; a big improvement to her selfish pr1 personality_ Just because she confessed her love for him at still at a immature peak of her life; doesn't mean she can't forget about that once called 'love' that brought her emotional pain to just lessen it to a deep bond that she still wants to keep for herself and others around her. She doesn't have to be madly in love with him anymore especially since there was no reciprocation in the first place. It's just wishful thinking. Part I Sasuke said that her and Naruto were his 'important people', does it really seem that he stills harbors these things the way he used to? No, but they still are of significance.

If you can give me some clear romantic evidence that Sakura still loves Sasuke, or even clearly contradict this; I'll give you five cookies and rep you. Because I have not seen any so far, from both sides of the trade.

--


*Spoiler*: __ 



As for the NH arguement, let me get this straight to you. EVERYONE IN THE VILLAGE IS Naruto's important people; some stand as people who have acknowledged him and those who he wants to acknowledge; as the Hokage- he will achieve that goal. Each one of the Rookie 9 is special to him in many ways.



			
				 You said:
			
		

> Hinata was the one he thought of & Hinata was the only one who would have confessed to him while doing what she did.



Using hypotheical situations in this equation DO fit because I wasn't talking about someone like Tenten confessing to him; I was talking about her taking the hit by Pein like she did - in which Naruto remembered in his flashback after he got out of Kyuubi mode, _ he remembered Hinata was hurt and felt bad because he didn't want to hurt her- like he had previously hurted Sakura_ Seeing that he remembered Hinata was hurt and was concerned for her, I can compare to this to any other female/guy- someone like Shikamaru and say that he would've felt bad as well and said "Shikamaru and the villiagers are alright". Shikamaru was the person he remembered hurt, right in front of him so of course he would've addressed his name separatedly. Overall this all has nothing to do with Hinata's level of importance because he did say * Hinata (the girl who he remembers was hurt/unconcious) AND THE VILLIAGERS. (the rest of the people he is also concerned that he might've hurt.) Hinata just happened to be there because he remembers all of the other hurt ninjas as well in his latest flashback. *

And the reason I said that he probably didn't remember because he hasn't flashbacked it yet (but then again that could be him focused on bigger things) and that when he gets out of Kyuubi mode, he usually doesn't remember things. That's all.


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## saasha (Apr 13, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> No, allow me to intrude.



Please do. 



> Did you know that _every single person_ in Konoha is Naruto's important person? That's the hokage's mindset that Kishi's given him. Everyone.



Yes, Of course, but while the villagers are important to him ( Hokage mindset) there a bunch of them that he has persoanlly interacted/formed personal bonds with & who he has mentioned are among his important people. There is a difference. Mocking me for stating a fact wont change that.





> So let me get this straight; you're saying that because of this confession, he will not only give her a chance, but put her above his first love as well? You know, the pink dot in the distance (for many among you) that keeps annoying her Sasuke-kun?
> 
> At least, that's what I've read.



I have no idea where you are getting these ideas, but none of my posts implied any of what you are saying while peaceluvx's post clearly did.


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## Kathutet (Apr 13, 2009)

saasha said:


> Yes, Of course, but while the villagers are important to him ( Hokage mindset) there a bunch of them that he has persoanlly interacted/formed personal bonds with & who he has mentioned are among his important people. There is a difference. Mocking me for stating a fact wont change that.
> 
> I have no idea where you are getting these ideas, but none of my posts implied any of what you are saying while peaceluvx's post clearly did.


Okay, and speaking of personal interaction... Whom did he have the most interaction with? Let's... Compare.

Hinata: a few chapters, and recently a confession.
Sakura: pretty much every chapter, albeit not always in a positive way.

Would you like to date someone that you never spoke to, never noticed or barely saw? I think not. Hinata is 'special' to Naruto because she's one of the Rookie Nine. Now, whom would be 'moar special', the girl that is part of the Rookie Nine, or the girl that's a part of the Rookie Nine, part of his team and who he has actually (dare I say it?) blushed for. Not to mention countless of other events that allowed them to bond even further/deeper and made them understand each other. They grew closer.

Now, Naruto does appreciate and most likely admire Hinata as of now because of her sacrifice, but that does not change the simple fact that he does not understand her and she does not understand him. No, she does not. She looks at Naruto like he's a demi-god; a semi-perfect being with flaws that are excusable, and based on this she has created an image of him. She knows _nothing_ of his problems. She wasn't there for him when Sasuke left, she wasn't there when he was informed what happened to jinchuuriki's that lose their Bijuu, she wasn't there when he collapsed on the ground, crying over his friend Sasuke, she wasn't there for him when Jiraya died, she wasn't there for him when he trained for days/weeks without end trying to become stronger in order to fulfill his goal; bringing back Sasuke, becoming Hokage and earning the _respect and admiration_ of Sakura (succeeded!) and she was there when... Naruto was beaten. One time. That's it, and that is the actual development of NH in part two.

I thought these posts implied said statements because that's what interpretation does, that's what we fans do each chapter and debate about; interpretation.

So technically, I can say I've interpreted your post as offensive (I did not, this is an example) and you can't really change what I interpreted; it's my interpretation. It's something that just... Happens. /mystery! 

Alright, this has turned out to be a bit longer than I first expected.
Apologies in advance, you will probably find some inconsistencies here and there.


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## Hikui (Apr 14, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Talking about humorous comments. I do recall the majority of the fillers having NaruHina in them...


Of course, the anime team needs to exploit anything that makes the naruto fans happy, and let's not forget the "let's throw this in just in case" scenario. 
That said most of the fillers are just fodder/fan service (and so are extended scenes). We should just take them as a grain of salt and enjoy the ride. 
I enjoyed some fillers...*guilty*



Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



You're sort of right. Thing is I also hate this argument because people downplay it saying it that it could've been anyone and forget to look at the big picture. Kishimoto did it for a reason (I mean they're fictional characters, after all). He chose Hinata in that particular moment. It is important, that's all. So justifying Naruto's reaction saying "it could've been anyone" means nothing. It wasn't just anyone, it was Hinata, period. And the fact that she confessed does mean a lot more.

Say if it had been Chouji and had him say some sort of friendship speech it would've been the same purpose (Naruto goes Kyuubi) but it wouldn't have the same emotional impact with that person (as in the Naruto-Hinata relationship/dynamic). So yeah, it's different. I hope I made sense. 






Tyrannos said:


> Oh dear, that _old_ arguement again.
> Certain people who were against NaruSaku brought up that argument a few years ago, saying NaruSaku was a "Red Herring", which perpetuates until today.
> People, "Red Herrings" are for mysteries, in determining the "real culprit", not for pairings.


Tyrannos I happen to disagree on your definition of red herring. Red herring is anything that misleads and yes, it can be applied to romance. (JKR did this; lots of shojo manga do this). 


Tyrannos said:


> Even if it was, Red Herrings are established _after_ the first couple of chapters in establishing characters and motives.   Like in mysteries in establishing the crime and the possibilities.  So NaruSaku couldn't be it, because it was the _first_ established pairing in the manga, because Naruto expressed his interest in Sakura before she expressed her interest in Sasuke.


That said, red herrings are not always the later established (in Star Wars Luke and Leia shared some sort of relationship -first- but they didn't end up together, everyone knows why). Also, Sakura's liking to Sasuke is also showed in the same chapter (a page after).....so I don't think it is a valid point.  


Tyrannos said:


> Second, Red Herrings are more prominent in distracting the reader from the truth.  Which I find ironic, because as we seen here in this very pairing debate thread, many people claim they don't see NaruSaku.


The other point you make is the fact some people don't see Narusaku when red herrings are supposed to be obvious. Back in HP, lots of people claimed H/Hr weren't obvious and hence was the real pairing and vise versa, again, we all know how that turned out. So no, it cannot always be applied. Red Herrings are used be authors however they see fit and are a double edge sword.



Tyrannos said:


> Third, Red Herrings are not despelled until the end when the truth is revealed.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Lastly, I don?t think that last rule of yours applies. Most if not all stories have the romance resolved before getting to the end, with some exceptions in romance novels. (In Dragonball it was resolved very early, in HP in book 6/7, and don?t let me get started on typical shonen). 

So could NaruSaku be a red herring? Yes. Could NaruHina be a red herring? Yes What about SasuSaku? That too. 
That said, even when it might have been sort of intentional, I just think Kishimoto is sloppy in the romance area. (And he's making a mess xD)

THE COMPARISONS I USED ABOVE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE DIRECT AND UP FOR DEBATE, THEY WERE USED TO PROVE A POINT. 



peaceluvx said:


> *
> 
> Spoiler:
> 
> ...


*

Spoiler:  




So by that logic Sakura has the same importance to Naruto than Kiba or Shino? Weren't people saying that Sakura was almost as important as Sasuke a while ago? *confused*

Even when they're all their important people, I just don't think it would've been the same if it had been Chouji or Hinata. It would've served the same purpose (go Kyuubi) but the relationship with that person, in this instance Hinata, would definitely change and would be completely different if it had been Chouji, Hinata or any random Hyuuga. 






peaceluvx said:



 

Spoiler:  



Using hypotheical situations in this equation DO fit because I wasn't talking about someone like Tenten confessing to him; I was talking about her taking the hit by Pein like she did - in which Naruto remembered in his flashback after he got out of Kyuubi mode,  he remembered Hinata was hurt and felt bad because he didn't want to hurt her- like he had previously hurted Sakura Seeing that he remembered Hinata was hurt and was concerned for her, I can compare to this to any other female/guy- someone like Shikamaru and say that he would've felt bad as well and said "Shikamaru and the villiagers are alright". Shikamaru was the person he remembered hurt, right in front of him so of course he would've addressed his name separatedly. Overall this all has nothing to do with Hinata's level of importance because he did say  Hinata (the girl who he remembers was hurt/unconcious) AND THE VILLIAGERS. (the rest of the people he is also concerned that he might've hurt.) Hinata just happened to be there because he remembers all of the other hurt ninjas as well in his latest flashback. 

And the reason I said that he probably didn't remember because he hasn't flashbacked it yet (but then again that could be him focused on bigger things) and that when he gets out of Kyuubi mode, he usually doesn't remember things. That's all. 




Click to expand...




Spoiler:  



The whole Naruto naming Hinata separately is to give her emphasis from Kishimoto's part and to show us that he hadn't forgotten about her like some hypothesized. I don't think it should be dismissed as a "he would've done it for anyone", which even when it is a true statement, I don't think should be taken to that extent. It was still HINATA, period. 

Look at it form this point of view. If you hit someone with a car you would be worried about that person whoever he/she might be. But if that person happened to be someone who is close to you then it would have a lot more of an impact if it had been a nameless hobo.
At least that's the point I am (and other NHs) trying to convey. 




I'm back to have some fun. :ho*


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## Black Flicka (Apr 14, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> That's really nice argument but can you say exactly where it was written in manga? I just want to read it



i think it's episode 172


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## Kathutet (Apr 14, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Of course, the anime team needs to exploit anything that makes the naruto fans happy, and let's not forget the "let's throw this in just in case" scenario.
> That said most of the fillers are just fodder/fan service (and so are extended scenes). We should just take them as a grain of salt and enjoy the ride.
> I enjoyed some fillers...*guilty*


Ooh, guilty as charged!  I enjoy some fillers as well. Darn it all. 


Black Flicka said:


> i think it's episode 98


But can you link us to the _chapter_, please?


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 14, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> But can you link us to the _chapter_, please?



He's referring to the Hospital Scene, at the end of the Tsunade arc.

Chapter 172.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 14, 2009)

here's the link
Death Piea
yep i think that cartoon is pushing narusaku, not that i have anything against that 
but i'm sure i watched that episode and that he said it, and on wiki and everywhere u watch it says he said it
so...
but i think you must be blind if you don't understand what he meant with that look.....


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## Kathutet (Apr 14, 2009)

First Tsurugi said:


> He's referring to the Hospital Scene, at the end of the Tsunade arc.
> 
> Chapter 172.


Thanks, but I was calling him out. Naruto never said that in that chapter. In fact; Tsunade mentions that Naruto is more sensitive than he looks. Not that Sasuke & Sakura = trulubz and Naruto approves of them being together.

*Edit:* For God's sake. That's interpretation. He is hurt.
Mentally hurt by seeing that. He doesn't approve, what the hell?

*Edit edit: *Oh gawd... Filler =/= canon. It took me several minutes to figure out what you meant. Hahahahahah! The anime =/= canon.

Lord, I thought people knew this. 

I guess I'm... _Blind_ then. Hahah! I guess you must be blind when you mistake a hurt look for an approving one.

Good night, this Narutard is going to bed. Hahah! You made me laugh, kid. +rep for you.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 14, 2009)

ok i couldn't believe when i saw someone wrote that narusaku hasn't been developed!!!!!!!!!
what the hell is that?!
do you read this manga?!
if you haven't seen any scenes in shippuden that doesn't make you think that sakura likes naruto than.... i don't know what to say O.O
and naruhina ISN'T POSSIBLE in this moment
what is naruto going to say?!¨
hi hinata, i don't love you, but we can try?!
that's not real naruto!
and if we all understood these last chapters, naruto grow up!
and the same thing is with sasusaku! 
sasuke DOES NOT love sakura, no matter what you say, he didn't showed it!
ok you can say he said thank you when he was going away but what the hell is that suposed to mean? oh gee thanks, you liked me! YEY! that's a great love -.-
but narusaku HAS BEEN developed! do yo remember what sakura first did when we met her in manga?! she said to naruto: move it you morron! i wanna sit on the other side of you (by sasuke) and she came to taking care of naruto and worrying about him! that was a long way to go over. maybe she didn't confessed but SO WHAT?! hinata didn't conffesed after 400 episodes! so now she did and now narusaku doesn't have a chance?! i mean c'mon!

and it's not true that sakura wants sasuke for herself! she tried to let naruto escape the promise of a lifetime twice! doesn't that prove us something?! she likes her "friend" and his life more than she would like sasuke to come back. maybe she would like sasuke to come back but NEVER at a cost of naruto's life! and when she wanted to feed naruto ramen IT WASN'T because she remembered sasuke! it was because she remembered what naruto DID for her to get her sasuke! 

i mean why would relationship that masashi hasn't developed through whole naruto become real in 2 CHAPTERS! WHY OH WHY?! IF NARUSAKU HAS BEEN DEVELOPED THROUGH 400 CHAPTERS! you can say whatever the hell you want that narusaku hasn't been developed but i can show you how they did even BEFORE sasuke left!

so there....


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## Black Flicka (Apr 14, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Thanks, but I was calling him out. Naruto never said that in that chapter. In fact; Tsunade mentions that Naruto is more sensitive than he looks. Not that Sasuke & Sakura = trulubz and Naruto approves of them being together.
> 
> *Edit:* For God's sake. That's interpretation. He is hurt.
> Mentally hurt by seeing that. He doesn't approve, what the hell?
> ...



lol i said it was a hurt look not an approving one
lol


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## Kathutet (Apr 14, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> lol i said it was a hurt look not an approving one
> lol



Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of NaruSaku and do not want NH or SS to happen. However; your statement was somewhat incorrect.


Black Flicka said:


> but if i remember right when naruto watched with a sad smile how sakura hugged sasuke he said:
> "If she's happy, then I'll be happy as well"


That's actually approval, and I based my replies on this. Sorry, but I think we've both been confused here. 

He did not say this in the manga [which is canon] and this is completely interpretation. Surely, his look was one of sadness and inner defeat, but claiming that he said that is not really the way to debate around here.

Don't worry, I've made these mistakes myself. Merely correcting you as a fellow fan before someone else does.


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## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> * @ Saasha*
> When have I stated that she is doing this for Naruto _alone?_ I clearly stated that Sakura has her _ own reasons as well for wanting Sasuke back and I never said anything about Sakura's romantic status shifting over from him to Naruto. _



Then why even bring it up if it isn't relevant to her romantic status? because that is what we are debating isn't it? Her romantic status?



> Your correct; there's no correct basis for their bond. You can't even call them 'friends' in my eyes. Sasuke knows little about Sakura and never even attempts to try to know her. Whenever their in the same room together; he's simply quietly thinking (as displayed in the hospital screen) while Sakura is trying to pursue him in ways in which he said that he wasn't up for.



I agree with this to an extent. You forgot to mention that he tends to go out of his way to explain himself & his actions to her quite often, despite how unnescessary they are. He also looks to her for comfort. She has a calming effect on him. Pb's post on Sakura's effect on Sasuke shed's much light on their unique bond which imo is not quite friendship & not quite romantic but somewhere in between. 




> Sakura doesn't know much about Sasuke other than he's a Uchiha, and that little snippet he shared with him about Itachi. Also the things she researched over the timeskip.



She knows a hell of a lot more than that. She knows that he is broken, that he isn't invincible, that he is hurting, that he is consumed with a desire to avenge his clan, that he is capable of showing kindness to someone he doesn't like,  that he feels lonely, that he purposely keeps away from people because he is an avenger, that he can be brutally honest, that he would risk his life for his teammates even if he believes that they are a burden, that he would compliment her to cheer her up even if he finds her annoying, that he feels fear & is capable of freezing up in a battle just like any other less skilful ninja, that he enjoys his bickering & rivalry with naruto even if he pretends otherwise, that he would protect them both in a heartbeat when he was still their teammate, that he wants revenge so bad that he is willing to attack his best friend, that the sasuke they know & the curse seal induced sasuke are not the same, that he appreciates her love & care even if he cannot return it....etc (I'm sure there's more but I'm too lazy to list em all, hopefully you get the idea). The fact that she was the only one to realize that sasuke would leave is a testament to how well she knew Sasuke, the boy that shone through his avenger mask, the real core of the boy that remained after the Uchiha massacre. 





> So what do they share? Being on the same team and growing together T7 was what solely brought them close to 'important comrades'. Sakura cared for Sasuke in the bad times, and Sasuke learned to respect that and as a comrade/teammate; he did the same for her because he knew wasn't in the position to do so herself as well.



That isn't all there was to it. They got close enough to consider each other as one among their most important people. They had a significant bond, an emotional connection, romantic or not, or else they wouldn't consider each other as important people.






> And where is this 'desperately wanting to save Sasuke' coming from? She's not nearly as desperated as said 'brother' Naruto in this ambition, she barely speaks of him enough, but is shown to have visual concern and worry in him. She might miss him but she isn't hopping up everyday- Sasuke on her mind 24/7 trying to find him and trying to train more so she and Naruto can both save him. Once again, she's concerned for him as a being, a lost teammate, and a 'first love'.



She's clearly desperate to save him whenever she has been focused on in regards to Sasuke. Naruto is the titular character, so obviously he will be focused on more. For example, just because Hinata's feelings weren't focused on doesn't mean she wasn't in love with him all this time right? Even better, Naruto's own feelings are hardly focused on, even less than Sakura's for Sasuke & the majority of you still believe he's in love with her, right? Double standard much?


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## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

contd. Spoiler tagged entire post to be on the safe side. Too sleepy to recheck.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> *There is not ANYTHING to point out whether she feels romantically for Sasuke or not. Her side with both Naruto AND Sasuke is rather ambigious at this point.*



Actually, there is. She still reacts as strongly as ever whenever Sasuke is mentioned. This indicates that her already established romantic feelings for him have not waned in the least; they're just as intense as ever. There is no proof of her lessening romantic feelings for him. To me, the fact that she still reacts strongly as ever to Sasuke proves that she still holds feelings for him.  

However, I will give you that it is possible that she has also developed romantic feelings for naruto. The series doesn't look to me like it is heading this way, but I will give you that it is a possibility. 





> Part I and Part II are two different scenerios to this plot;



No, Part I is the foundation on which Part II is built. Dismissing Part I revelations is like dismissing the backbone of the story. Moreover, Part II began with flashbacks to Sasuke's farewell in Part I.





> and obviously Sakura underwent a huge characteristic development in maturing and with that _ learning to be selfless; a big improvement to her selfish pr1 personality_ Just because she confessed her love for him at still at a immature peak of her life;



I disagree. Her development into a mature Sakura was a process that began in Part I & also ended before the end of Part I itself, when Sasuke was still around. It was a mature Sakura that confessed her love for him, a Sakura that was no longer selfish & insensitive & unaware of her own shortcomings. Her ninja skills, OTOH, developed when she decided to become Tsunade's apprentice after Sasuke's defection & Naruto's failure to bring Sasuke back. 

Part II merely shows off the Sakura that has already matured.




> doesn't mean she can't forget about that once called 'love' that brought her emotional pain to just lessen it to a deep bond that she still wants to keep for herself and others around her. She doesn't have to be madly in love with him anymore especially since there was no reciprocation in the first place.



How do you propose she do that when the reason she fell in love with him in the first place still exists? Until Sasuke specifically tells her that he's in love with someone else (fat chance), I dont see her attempting to move on. 

It seems like she crushed on him/liked him for all the wrong reasons( like his cool indifference, wicked smirks, sinfully hot being & his supertastic ninja skills). While these are crushworthy reasons, they alone, aren't a good enough basis for truly, madly, deeply (XD)  loving him. She was expecting/hoping for positive responses from him & although disappointed by his unresponsiveness to her flirtations, she seemed to find his lack of response just as appealing & they did not deter her in the least. I hope we agree so far.

I believe she fell in love with him for the right reasons. It is important to note that most of her conceptions regarding Sasuke were slowly but surely shot down ( except for his still eminent hotness XD) as the manga progressed. 

Her ideal image of him started to fall apart with her 1st glimpse of the real Sasuke, when he bluntly called her annoying for mocking Naruto’s lonely childhood. In anger at her insensitivity, he reveals his empathy for Naruto’s loneliness & unintentionally gives away that he understands the pain of loneliness himself. (Sakura doesn’t forget this, as is clear by her flashback, referring to this convo in ch 181 during her confession)

Imo, She fell in love with him because of his brokeness, his pain & lonliness, the occasional kindness he exercised with Team 7 giving her a glimpse of the real Sasuke, his stubborn intent to suffer alone & refusal to let anyone get too close. She wants to fix him/heal him. She knows she can't erase all his pain but she wants to atleast ease as much of his pain as she can. When I watch her, I feel like she's hurting along with him. She wants him to live for himself again. She wants to save him from himself. She, like Naruto, believes that the Sasuke they know is still in there somewhere. And as long as she continues to pursue him & hopes & believes that there is goodness in him, I don't see her love for him ever fading away. She is aware that he will continue to push her away, but that never stopped her in the past, why should it now? There's more but I'm kinda sleepy, I'll continue this once you raise more questions.




> Part I Sasuke said that her and Naruto were his 'important people', does it really seem that he stills harbors these things the way he used to? No, but they still are of significance.



I believe they still are. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 His flashback to Team 7 indicates that they still are his most important people after Itachi. You can believe otherwise, but manga heavily suggests that he hasn't severed his bonds with them as he led everyone to believe, including a vast majority of the fandom.






> If you can give me some clear romantic evidence that Sakura still loves Sasuke, or even clearly contradict this; I'll give you five cookies and rep you. Because I have not seen any so far, from both sides of the trade.



lol. That would be awesome,but I'm not sure you'll buy into my logic since we favor different pairings & all. How abt we make a bet instead?( unless you're too chicken to give it a shot) Manga ends with Sasusaku or Narusaku? Whoever wins will do a manifesto for the other pairing. Bet's off if manga ends with no pairings or naruhina alone. You up for it?

--



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> As for the NH arguement, let me get this straight to you. EVERYONE IN THE VILLAGE IS Naruto's important people; some stand as people who have acknowledged him and those who he wants to acknowledge; as the Hokage- he will achieve that goal. Each one of the Rookie 9 is special to him in many ways.



I'll copy/paste my reply to kitsune for you.

Yes, Of course, but while the villagers are important to him ( Hokage mindset) there a bunch of them that he has personally interacted/formed personal bonds with & who he has mentioned are among his important people. There is a difference. ( Similar to the president- all citizen's are important to him but are they as important as his friends & family with whom he has personal connections?)





> Using hypotheical situations in this equation DO fit because
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but hypothetical situations never fit & don't ever make a convincing argument imo, for the express reason that the author chose to use Hinata & not another random character


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## Kathutet (Apr 14, 2009)

saasha said:


> contd. Spoiler tagged entire post to be on the safe side. Too sleepy to recheck.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


And I shall do the same. You've either missed it or were too busy typing all of that out [impressive, holy shit].


*Spoiler*: __ 



Okay, and speaking of personal interaction... Whom did he have the most interaction with? Let's... Compare.

Hinata: a few chapters, and recently a confession.
Sakura: pretty much every chapter, albeit not always in a positive way.

Would you like to date someone that you never spoke to, never noticed or barely saw? I think not. Hinata is 'special' to Naruto because she's one of the Rookie Nine. Now, whom would be 'moar special', the girl that is part of the Rookie Nine, or the girl that's a part of the Rookie Nine, part of his team and who he has actually (dare I say it?) blushed for. Not to mention countless of other events that allowed them to bond even further/deeper and made them understand each other. They grew closer.

Now, Naruto does appreciate and most likely admire Hinata as of now because of her sacrifice, but that does not change the simple fact that he does not understand her and she does not understand him. No, she does not. She looks at Naruto like he's a demi-god; a semi-perfect being with flaws that are excusable, and based on this she has created an image of him. She knows _nothing_ of his problems. She wasn't there for him when Sasuke left, she wasn't there when he was informed what happened to jinchuuriki's that lose their Bijuu, she wasn't there when he collapsed on the ground, crying over his friend Sasuke, she wasn't there for him when Jiraya died, she wasn't there for him when he trained for days/weeks without end trying to become stronger in order to fulfill his goal; bringing back Sasuke, becoming Hokage and earning the _respect and admiration_ of Sakura (succeeded!) and she was there when... Naruto was beaten. One time. That's it, and that is the actual development of NH in part two.

I thought these posts implied said statements because that's what interpretation does, that's what we fans do each chapter and debate about; interpretation.

So technically, I can say I've interpreted your post as offensive (I did not, this is an example) and you can't really change what I interpreted; it's my interpretation. It's something that just... Happens. /mystery! 

Alright, this has turned out to be a bit longer than I first expected.
Apologies in advance, you will probably find some inconsistencies here and there.


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 14, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Thanks, but I was calling him out.



I didn't think he'd answer/know.
Sorry.


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## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Okay, and speaking of personal interaction... Whom did he have the most interaction with? Let's... Compare.
> 
> Hinata: a few chapters, and recently a confession.
> Sakura: pretty much every chapter, albeit not always in a positive way.



Romance isn't dependant on the amount of personal interaction, it is dependant on the significance of each personal interaction. 



> Would you like to date someone that you never spoke to, never noticed or barely saw? I think not. Hinata is 'special' to Naruto because she's one of the Rookie Nine. Now, whom would be 'moar special', the girl that is part of the Rookie Nine, or the girl that's a part of the Rookie Nine, part of his team and who he has actually (dare I say it?) blushed for. Not to mention countless of other events that allowed them to bond even further/deeper and made them understand each other. They grew closer.



Your perception of NaruHina interaction is skewed. Since I am not primarily a Naruhina fan, I will pass on this & let a naruhina fan deal with it.



> Now, Naruto does appreciate and most likely admire Hinata as of now because of her sacrifice, but that does not change the simple fact that he does not understand her and she does not understand him. No, she does not. She looks at Naruto like he's a demi-god; a semi-perfect being with flaws that are excusable, and based on this she has created an image of him. She knows _nothing_ of his problems. She wasn't there for him when Sasuke left, she wasn't there when he was informed what happened to jinchuuriki's that lose their Bijuu, she wasn't there when he collapsed on the ground, crying over his friend Sasuke, she wasn't there for him when Jiraya died, she wasn't there for him when he trained for days/weeks without end trying to become stronger in order to fulfill his goal; bringing back Sasuke, becoming Hokage and earning the _respect and admiration_ of Sakura (succeeded!) and she was there when... Naruto was beaten. One time. That's it, and that is the actual development of NH in part two.



Blech, More Skewed perception. Sry, I'm not a Naruhina fan but I'm hoping someone else will correct you. I'm too sleepy , If no one else does, then maybe I'll try tom.



> I thought these posts implied said statements because that's what interpretation does, that's what we fans do each chapter and debate about; interpretation.
> 
> So technically, I can say I've interpreted your post as offensive (I did not, this is an example) and you can't really change what I interpreted; it's my interpretation. It's something that just... Happens. /mystery!
> 
> ...



Apology noted. Accept mine as well; I might come across as more dismissively agressive than necessary. I'm sleepy, Gdnite.


----------



## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

First Tsurugi said:


> I didn't think he'd answer/know.
> Sorry.



If you're referring to me, I'm a she. If not, I'm sorry for butting into your convo. Blame it on my sleep-induced mind.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Apr 14, 2009)

saasha said:


> If you're referring to me, I'm a she. If not, I'm sorry for butting into your convo. Blame it on my sleep-induced mind.



Nah, I meant Black Flicker.
You seem to be quite proficient as far as this debate goes.


----------



## Pachees N' Cream (Apr 14, 2009)

waaaw...I've been away for years, and the debate's hotter than ever!
Is fun! Geez, years ago I'd gladly offer kunais to those who wanna fight over the romance sht in NarutoVerse.

And I must say, my opinions have changed over the years. I prefered that Naruto end up with a girl he loves and a girl who loves him. T It'd be NOT NICE for a girl (i.e. Hinata) to end up as second choice. The same goes for Naruto, if Sakura still mushes over Sasuke. In Part 1, it seemed improbable that Sakura would get her mind off Sasuke.
So i voted for NaruHina SasuSaku, hoping all four would be alive and well in the end.

Then again, by observation of real men, they are least likely to love a second choice more than the first choice. Rawr. And real women are more adaptable in settling for what God places on their laps.

But then..rawr..things change. Geez, I guess we have to wait until the dust settles. Like, found out first who's gonna survive or not.


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## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

Pachees N' Cream said:


> Then again, by observation of real men, they are least likely to love a second choice more than the first choice. Rawr. And real women are more adaptable in settling for what God places on their laps.



Actually , I find the case to be opposite. Women tend to exercise deep emotional involvement & are stubbornly intent on loving their first choice while men are more easily swayed by new contenders of their heart. Though, there are always exceptions to either cases.


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## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

First Tsurugi said:


> Nah, I meant Black Flicker.
> You seem to be quite proficient as far as this debate goes.



Oh, really? Thanx. I'm glad. I really am sleepy but I can't bring myself to go just yet. Couple more things to do. Seeya.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 14, 2009)

in my opinion i think woman are more interested in narusaku cuz' most of us would like to have someone who run around us like naruto does. that's why we don't really adore sasuke cuz' seeing girl get dumped again and again kinda screw's our mood.

btw i'm a girl too hehe


----------



## Black Flicka (Apr 14, 2009)

hey how the hell do i put my signature on?! oh this is how
crap this is big
how i put it smaller?!


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## mystic868 (Apr 14, 2009)

I just wanna see Sakura's face when she will see Sasuke and Karin


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## Peter (Apr 14, 2009)

Black Flicka, put your sig in spoiler tags. 

Anyways, that sig is a little biased, but we're not here to debate people's signature. .-.


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## NaruSaku12345 (Apr 14, 2009)

saasha said:


> contd. Spoiler tagged entire post to be on the safe side. Too sleepy to recheck.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Oh my fucking god, she does not act strongly with romantic fellings when sasuke is mentoned. Actually when was the last time she mentioned him aside from being on a mission? It does not prove he still has romantic feelings for him, that is un-proven until we see Sasuke come back to Konoha and see sakura herself say "I love Uchiha sasuke and want to make Uchiha babies." As for sakura's feelings towards Naruto.... even fucking complete strangers see it after being around her for what? Less then a day. 



> No, Part I is the foundation on which Part II is built. Dismissing Part I revelations is like dismissing the backbone of the story. Moreover, Part II began with flashbacks to Sasuke's farewell in Part I.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I majorly disagree with your entire statement. Who on earth says she has any feelings towards him? So far in the series, it appears highly unlikely that Sakura still loves him. Actually the way Sakura confessed back in Part 1 shows that Sakura was completely immature and selfish. She would have abanded her village and all her friends and family just so she could have a nice fuck with the hottest guy in the village.



> It seems like she crushed on him/liked him for all the wrong reasons( like his cool indifference, wicked smirks, sinfully hot being & his supertastic ninja skills). While these are crushworthy reasons, they alone, aren't a good enough basis for truly, madly, deeply (XD)  loving him. She was expecting/hoping for positive responses from him & although disappointed by his unresponsiveness to her flirtations, she seemed to find his lack of response just as appealing & they did not deter her in the least. I hope we agree so far.
> 
> I believe she fell in love with him for the right reasons. It is important to note that most of her conceptions regarding Sasuke were slowly but surely shot down ( except for his still eminent hotness XD) as the manga progressed.
> 
> ...




 this whole thing you wrote is flawed to the motherfucking core. Sakura grew her *crush* on sasuke back when she was like 7 or something because he was hot and she wanted to fit in with her group of friends. Through out part one her feelings did not change and it remained a crush on some hot emo kid that doesn't exactly like her. And as a crush, after he knocks her out on a bench, rejects her in cold blood, joins the enemy village and never return, after not seeing her for three years the first thing he does is try to stab her with some Chidori sword. Sakura seems throughout that encounter to be thinking Naruto more then Sasuke and showed significan development from the to the PoaL.



> I believe they still are.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



No I'm not up for "it", as for the manga ending with NaruHina?  That's just retarded and In Japan, Kishis homeland, NaruHina has the same chance of happening as LeeSaku: 1% +You act as if sasuke is remembering sakura alone, he is remembering Team 7 overall and in the big picture, hes not thinking of Team 7, he's thinking of teamwork an friendship in general. Sooo....

Teamwork=SasuSaku? 




> I'll copy/paste my reply to kitsune for you.
> 
> Yes, Of course, but while the villagers are important to him ( Hokage mindset) there a bunch of them that he has personally interacted/formed personal bonds with & who he has mentioned are among his important people. There is a difference. ( Similar to the president- all citizen's are important to him but are they as important as his friends & family with whom he has personal connections?)
> 
> ...





 Hinata is just as random as tenten.


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## Miss Happy (Apr 14, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> I just wanna see Sakura's face when she will see Sasuke and Karin


if i were you i wouldn't want sakura to see sasuke and karin because if she does... you should be more than sure that i will lead to sasusaku
to me karin and her deep _*or*_ shallow love is actually the key for them to finally get together!
Don't you think the same?






for those that will accidentaly read this post and don't agree please don't neg me


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## gabzilla (Apr 14, 2009)

Black Flicka said:
			
		

> in my opinion i think woman are more interested in narusaku cuz' *most of us would like to have someone who run around us like naruto does.*



No, not really. If I wanted somebody to run around me, I'd buy a dog.



Black Flicka said:


> hey how the hell do i put my signature on?! oh this is how
> crap this is big
> how i put it smaller?!



I'm afraid to ask, but why would you want to put that in your signature?


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## Kathutet (Apr 14, 2009)

↑ Woman, your speed is too great for me to handle. 


Black Flicka said:


> hey how the hell do i put my signature on?! oh this is how
> crap this is big
> how i put it smaller?!


A spoiler tag. Do it.


mystic868 said:


> I just wanna see Sakura's face when she will see Sasuke and Karin


Most likely she'll stare, go into jealousy mode etc.


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## phoenixblood (Apr 14, 2009)

electoraljew2 said:


> Oh my fucking god, she does not act strongly with romantic fellings when sasuke is mentoned. Actually when was the last time she mentioned him aside from being on a mission? It does not prove he still has romantic feelings for him, that is un-proven until we see Sasuke come back to Konoha and see sakura herself say "I love Uchiha sasuke and want to make Uchiha babies." As for sakura's feelings towards Naruto.... even fucking complete strangers see it after being around her for what? Less then a day.



First, could you be a little less antagonistic in your replies.  It's rude.

Second, let me understand your line of reasoning.  Sakura already confessed her romantic feelings out loud to Sasuke, but unless she says it *again* out loud, then it is not proven (I agree it's not *proven* although I believe likely to remain as there has been no clear evidence to the contrary or even any kind of lessening/change in her regard of Sasuke, so I think previously established stance is more probable); on the other hand, Sakura, who has otherwise rejected Naruto's date requests, does not in this case need to say her feelings for Naruto out loud to be "obvious".  Tell me, why does Sakura need to verbalize her feelings in the case where she already had previously, but not the other where there is no prior romantic context established?



			
				electoraljew2 said:
			
		

> I majorly disagree with your entire statement. Who on earth says she has any feelings towards him? So far in the series, it appears highly unlikely that Sakura still loves him. Actually the way Sakura confessed back in Part 1 shows that Sakura was completely immature and selfish. She would have abanded her village and all her friends and family just so she could have a nice fuck with the hottest guy in the village.



Ok, let me ask you this - is Team 7 supposed to be an example of the strength of bonds, and Naruto and Sakura's continued pursuit and not giving up on Sasuke a testament to this strength?  If you agree on this very basic theme of the manga, do you not find it curious that one half of that continued determined search is based on immature selfish feelings, per your description?

And with Sasuke absent, it's not like their relationship could improve in the meantime.  So you're trying to argue that the bond between Sasuke and Sakura is shallow and therefore weak?  I find this hard to align this with the basic tenet of the series.

Also, for someone who is so brutally honest to the point of sometimes being inconsiderate, why would Sasuke thank Sakura before he left?  He didn't have to leave her with any positive sentiment.  In fact, he had planned not to when he told her to go back to bed and he would walk off like that.  So if everything Sakura offered was only immature and selfish, what would Sasuke be grateful for from her?  Why would he falter in his plan to cleanly cut his ties with Team 7 for something you deem immature and selfish, per your description?

I think rather that there would have to be some strong base there for the conversation to end the way it did.  Granted, Sakura still needed to fully mature - as do they all - but her growth into Part 2 was not about realizing how much of a jerk Sasuke was (which he really wasn't all that much, and what he was I think is understandable from his tragic past and painted that way with all the good and selfless things he did for them), but rather not relying on others but finding the strength within herself.  Rather than just wanting Sasuke back and having to depend on Naruto to go after him, she chose to grow and be able to help bring Sasuke back as well protect Naruto.  No change of feelings required in this line of character development.



			
				electoraljew2 said:
			
		

> this whole thing you wrote is flawed to the motherfucking core. Sakura grew her *crush* on sasuke back when she was like 7 or something because he was hot and she wanted to fit in with her group of friends. Through out part one her feelings did not change and it remained a crush on some hot emo kid that doesn't exactly like her. And as a crush, after he knocks her out on a bench, rejects her in cold blood, joins the enemy village and never return, after not seeing her for three years the first thing he does is try to stab her with some Chidori sword. Sakura seems throughout that encounter to be thinking Naruto more then Sasuke and showed significan development from the to the PoaL.



Actually, if her crush on Sasuke was about fitting in, she wouldn't have been surprised that Sasuke is the choice of pretty much all the girls in the class.  She also wouldn't have used it as an excuse to break away from her strongest friendship to step out of Ino's shadow.  How is that fitting in?

And I think the "rejects her in cold blood" is inaccurate if you read how the conversation ended.  It ended with a kind, although cryptic, word.  And he set her down on the bench.  If he was truly as cold as you claim, he would have left her a crumpled heap on the ground.

I agree he does not intend to return, but he also chose he revenge over Naruto, and yet others have commented on his influence on Sasuke.  So the fact that Sasuke chose revenge over Sakura isn't a reflection on his lack of relationship (I'm not referring to romantic here, just bond in general) with Sakura, but the strength of his belief he needed to follow the avenger path.

Also, Sasuke made no attempt to strike at Sakura until she first attacked him.  He also attacked Naruto, Sai, and Yamato.  His exact thoughts are unclear

*Spoiler*: _manga spoilers_ 



but with subsequent revealing of his current character, it seems he does not kill anyone except for Itachi.



Again, the resolution in question is which will ultimately prevail - his path of hate, or accepting his bonds with Team 7.  There has always been this oscillation with Sasuke since the beginning (several times Team 7 won out as Sasuke willingly would give his life, and therefore not complete his revenge, for their sakes).  It is the obstacle for Team 7, but just because that obstacle is there doesn't mean Team 7, including Sakura, means nothing to him.  If it did, there would be no suspense on whether Naruto and Sakura will succeed in bringing Sasuke back if it was so decided like you describe, and that would have been a waste of quite a few arcs.

Anyway, I pointed out quite a few instances where your depiction was less than accurate.  Perhaps you should not be so quick to cuss others out over mistakes you fall into yourself.



			
				electoraljew2 said:
			
		

> No I'm not up for "it", as for the manga ending with NaruHina?  That's just retarded and In Japan, Kishis homeland, NaruHina has the same chance of happening as LeeSaku: 1% +You act as if sasuke is remembering sakura alone, he is remembering Team 7 overall and in the big picture, hes not thinking of Team 7, he's thinking of teamwork an friendship in general. Sooo....
> 
> Teamwork=SasuSaku?



If you don't have respect for your opponent or their stance, I suggest you remove yourself from the debate.  A real debate should start with respect, no matter how much you may disagree with your opponent.  Otherwise it will escalate into fighting and insults and feed the wars between fandoms.  Why don't you try to be better than that?

And you do realize that SasuSaku is much more popular in Japan, and NaruHina is still more popular than NaruSaku.  In fact, KakaSaku is more popular than NaruSaku.  So I'm not sure what you mean by NaruHina has no chance in Japan?  Besides, what do fandoms have to do with what will be canon?

Anyway, while Sasuke thinking of Team 7 doesn't automatically equate to SasuSaku, his bond with Sakura was left off with a romantic offer - so logically, that is context it will be addressed at some point, whether requited or no.  But while the hope remains of Sasuke coming back to Team 7 and re-accepting those bonds, the hope for SasuSaku remains while Sakura is not shown to have moved on.



			
				electoraljew2 said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: _manga spoilers_
> 
> 
> 
> Hinata is just as random as tenten.




*Spoiler*: _manga spoilers_ 



It is not the same because Tenten would not be confessing feelings for Naruto.  In terms of Naruto's reaction of going kyuubi, it could be the same for anyone he relates to, yes.  But that doesn't mean the scene is interchangeable specifically because of the love confession.  This isn't like on a mission where Kishi has to work with the team members - everyone was getting updates on Naruto's battle, but it was Hinata who chose to jump in while the others held back.

And the reason included so the author could bring in the love confession which he will later address.  If it wasn't Hinata, then this would lead to no addressing of Hinata's feelings by Naruto (or Sakura's reaction awaited by the NaruSaku fandom).  I don't understand how you can just replace another character when the scene did have a context specific aspect to it.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 14, 2009)

kk i think i did it
so i don't rlly understand are we debating narusaku, sasusaku and naruhina anymore or are we just gonna wait for about 3 weeks or so for final conclosure


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## NaruSaku12345 (Apr 14, 2009)

phoenixblood said:


> First, could you be a little less antagonistic in your replies.  It's rude.
> 
> Second, let me understand your line of reasoning.  Sakura already confessed her romantic feelings out loud to Sasuke, but unless she says it *again* out loud, then it is not proven (I agree it's not *proven* although I believe likely to remain as there has been no clear evidence to the contrary or even any kind of lessening/change in her regard of Sasuke, so I think previously established stance is more probable); on the other hand, Sakura, who has otherwise rejected Naruto's date requests, does not in this case need to say her feelings for Naruto out loud to be "obvious".  Tell me, why does Sakura need to verbalize her feelings in the case where she already had previously, but not the other where there is no prior romantic context established?



Because there has been a 3 year intervein, and I think that it is likely that her feelings have changed towards Sasuke, and so far in Part 2, she has shown no romantic feelings towards him. And Sakuras feelings towards Naruto do need to be stated too.



> Ok, let me ask you this - is Team 7 supposed to be an example of the strength of bonds, and Naruto and Sakura's continued pursuit and not giving up on Sasuke a testament to this strength?  If you agree on this very basic theme of the manga, do you not find it curious that one half of that continued determined search is based on immature selfish feelings, per your description?
> 
> And with Sasuke absent, it's not like their relationship could improve in the meantime.  So you're trying to argue that the bond between Sasuke and Sakura is shallow and therefore weak?  I find this hard to align this with the basic tenet of the series.
> 
> ...



Ha the thank thing, First of all here is a thought that I haven't heard anyone mention. What if he was saying that to catch her off guard so he can knock her out and escape? And still, if he truely cared, he wouldn't have left and just trained to get stronger in Konoha.



> Actually, if her crush on Sasuke was about fitting in, she wouldn't have been surprised that Sasuke is the choice of pretty much all the girls in the class.  She also wouldn't have used it as an excuse to break away from her strongest friendship to step out of Ino's shadow.  How is that fitting in?
> 
> And I think the "rejects her in cold blood" is inaccurate if you read how the conversation ended.  It ended with a kind, although cryptic, word.  And he set her down on the bench.  If he was truly as cold as you claim, he would have left her a crumpled heap on the ground.
> 
> ...




His bond with sakura was left off with fighting her and the rest of Team 7, who were trying to bring him back. And no, Narusaku is more popular then NaruHina in Japan. And all the crack pairings are more popular, for godsakes there, the most popular is Kakashi x Iruka. wtf?



> *Spoiler*: _manga spoilers_
> 
> 
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata's confession will probably get the same reaction as Lee's confession. (By the characters.)


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 14, 2009)

Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not only that, those who initally used the "Red Herring" arguement initially threw it together to justify their pairing.  Which was nothing but a way of making excuses.


*Spoiler*: _As for Hinata_ 



Of course he chose Hinata, she had a lingering plot that has been needing to be revolved since the Chuunin Exam.  And now was a good opportunity with the classic confession cliche.

Now if Naruto doesn't talk with Hinata by the end of this Arc and the beginning of the next Arc, then it will be pretty clear that Kishi was just resolving Hinata's feelings and basically getting her out of the way.  However, if Naruto does requits Hinata's love, then NaruHina is effectively locked in stone. 

Personally, I honestly don't see Naruto requiting Hinata's love.  Especially when there is the Sakura dynamic still in play.






Hikui said:


> Tyrannos, I happen to disagree on your definition of red herring. Red herring is anything that misleads and yes, it can be applied to romance. (JKR did this; lots of shojo manga do this).



Sorry to tell you, but what I said is the set definition regarding Red Herring that's been taught in Colleges and Universities all over the world for decades.  

And you are very much incorrect about your assumption of Red Herrings being used.  Yes, JKR did use Red Herring in her Harry Potter Novels, but it wasnt with the romance, it was used to disguise the main plot revolving around Vordemort.

As for Red Herrings in Shoujo Mangas, trust me they aren't Red Herrings.   Instead, they are simple foreshadows.  



Hikui said:


> That said, red herrings are not always the later established (in Star Wars Luke and Leia shared some sort of relationship -first- but they didn't end up together, everyone knows why). Also, Sakura's liking to Sasuke is also showed in the same chapter (a page after).....so I don't think it is a valid point.



No offense, but you _really_ don't know what a Red Herring arguement is.   Those aren't even close to being Red Herring.   



Hikui said:


> The other point you make is the fact some people don't see Narusaku when red herrings are supposed to be obvious. Back in HP, lots of people claimed H/Hr weren't obvious and hence was the real pairing and vise versa, again, we all know how that turned out. So no, it cannot always be applied. Red Herrings are used be authors however they see fit and are a double edge sword.



Well those people were morons, because I for one pretty much saw Ron was going to end up with Hermione since the very beginning when they first interacted on the train.  Especially over the books with the romantic tension that was between them and none between Harry and Hermione.  

And Red Herrings are never double edged swords, unless an inexperienced novelist reveals what the Red Herring was trying to hide, ahead of time.



Hikui said:


> Lastly, I don’t think that last rule of yours applies. Most if not all stories have the romance resolved before getting to the end, with some exceptions in romance novels. (In Dragonball it was resolved very early, in HP in book 6/7, and don’t let me get started on typical shonen).



Last I checked, Dragonball was an Action Manga, not a romantic manga.  

And again I reiterate with Dragonball, Chichi was just a plot to introduce Gohan for the second half of the story.  Outside of that she had no relevance.

Harry Potter, it was pretty obvious Ron was going to end up with Hermione since the very beginning.  

And if you knew shonen, you will see that the Hero normally gets the girl.  



Hikui said:


> So could NaruSaku be a red herring? Yes. Could NaruHina be a red herring? Yes What about SasuSaku? That too.
> That said, even when it might have been sort of intentional, I just think Kishimoto is sloppy in the romance area. (And he's making a mess xD)



Yes, Kishimoto isn't good on the romance, because pretty much he's stuck to classic cliched scenes that many experienced readers of Manga and viewers of Anime have seen used dozens of times.   But many should recall that the manga revolves around the action and of Naruto's plot (being the title character).   So if anything, Naruto's feelings for Sakura are very significant.   

Which basically goes back to the old standby arguement:

NaruHina can't exist without Naruto requiting.
NaruSaku can't exist without Sakura requiting.
SasuSaku can't exist without Sasuke requiting.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 14, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Which basically goes back to the old standby arguement:
> 
> NaruHina can't exist without Naruto requiting.
> NaruSaku can't exist without Sakura requiting.
> SasuSaku can't exist without Sasuke requiting.



i completely agree with that part
it's just a "love" triangle
you can't have one without another
but we know some things
first about naruhina: hinata confessed and naruto did O.O face
second about narusaku: i mean how blind you must be not to see that naruto is in love with sakura?! that's so obivous! BUT we didn't get confession from neither side
third about sasusaku: sakura confessed and she got knocked out from sasuke -.-

so the only pair left WITHOUT any I LOVE YOU'S is NARUSAKU! so they will get their chance last so guess what happens then.... 

and i saw some people saying that narusaku DOES NOT develop!
tall
ok so on this link it's quite obvious that sakura is naruto crush 
yea, yea she's not his real love blah, blah etc. you'll see  
tall
here we see naruto is jelous! i mean duh!
tall
and here is how much alike they are! and that's good  
tall
naruto practically understands sakura so much here that he knows exactly what she wants to hear!
tall
now here naruto understands why he loves sakura! because they are so much alike! only thing she wants is to acknowledge her! the same as naruto! AND HERE IS MENTIONED LOVE NOT A CRUSH!  
tall
and finally sakura starts to understand a bit of naruto's feelings and decides to be nicer to him!
AND ALL OF THIS HAPPENS JUST IN MANGA NUMBER 3! HOW BLIND ARE U?! NARUSAKU NOT DEVELOPING?! SOME OF YOU ARE REALLY PISSING ME OFF!
I read too that some of you think that naruto's trick are pissing of sakura! well not everytime! here you go:
WoT fans, I have news for ye.
and again how alike they really are:
tall


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 14, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> if i were you i wouldn't want sakura to see sasuke and karin because if she does... you should be more than sure that i will lead to sasusaku
> to me karin and her deep _*or*_ shallow love is actually the key for them to finally get together!
> Don't you think the same?


It can also makes up her mind and deeply change her feelings for the people which were risking their lifes for her. 
Black Flicka I think personally that Naruto-Sakura developing of feelings were unwittingly made from beginning. What is really curious about it is that Sakura love for Sasuke was obviously shown, Hinata love for Naruto was obviously shown and about our lifelong companions? There wasn't so many obvious things about that - only speculations and missed interpretations. So maybe Kishi intends to make something non obvious more obvious at the end and make us suprise in sudden action change 
Btw he is planning at least 1 requited case to emerge (he wasn't thinking about any cases of love at the beginning but changed his mind) 

Why Go After Sasuke When You Have Everyone Else?


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## Forlong (Apr 14, 2009)

Ren said:


> We don't even know if Lee still likes Sakura. Nothing in part 2 has shown that, and the databook had nothing about it.


Dude, don't _ever_ trust the databooks.  They're total crap!



Ren said:


> I just can't see Sakura realizing hidden romantic feelings for Naruto after being his friend for so long. That and her attitude towards Naruto _romanticly _hasn't changed: whenever he asks her out for dates, she still says no, and doesn't even hesitate.


I think you missed the _only_ time in part 2 that he asked her out.  She said "okay".  Did that get mistraslated when you read it? 



Ren said:


> Magic? If Sasuke comes back, Sakura's chance to be with him just goes sky high. I don't think they will automaticly get together, but I sure don't see any logic in Sakura being with Naruto, and Sasuke just getting pushed aside. The team wouldn't be balanced at all:
> Naruto<likes>Sakura
> Sasuke<brother/best friend>Naruto
> Sasuke<friend?>Sakura (Sasuke and Sakura's relationship has never been based on friendship, so in comparison to NaruSaku and NaruSasu, it would be pretty weak.)
> Now if Sakura and Sasuke got together: Naruto and Sakura would have a strong friendship. Sasuke and Naruto would have an even stronger one. And Naruto would have Hinata (outside of the team), so things would _not _be bad for him.


Last time I checked, love isn't dictated by ballance between your opposit sex friends. 



Ren said:


> That doesn't happen in the manga.
> Seriously, I get the feeling the anime team is trying to build up NaruSaku to get more ratings...


Do you know how much of the anime has to get Kishimoto's okay, before it's made?  I don't think so.  I'm sure he's told them a few key detales that are important, but we can't be sure yet how valid those are.



Takagou said:


> Never said naruto thought about hinata  .  He is as in love with her as Sasuke is with Sakura and sakura is with naruto.  ...Aka, not at all
> 
> What I mean is that the manga as a WHOLE has developed Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and Hinata's for naruto much more than Naruto for sakura's.  Besides Naruto doing the normal things, such as saving her life (why wouldn't he?  He likes her x.x ) and being a bit emo over sakura wanting the sauce more than him, he hasn't had the grand, grab sakura, tell her she means the world to him, say that he LOVES her, emphasis on how his feelings are dramatic, and unchanging moment....it hasn't happened.  I understand he crushes, but I am not convinced that Kishi has provided nearly enough serious development on Naruto's feelings for Sakura.  He _likes_ her, but I want to read a serious Daisuki, not a half assed attempt at a date.


Er...WHAT!?   You're saying Naruto doesn't _like_-like Sakura?  Naruto made a lifelong promise to her.  And to do what?  Bring back the guy she likes so she can be happy and lower his chances of having her.  I don't know where you learned about love; but, if you don't think that's love, I'd say you missed a few critical leasons. 



EarthBenderGal said:


> Anyway, ever since chapter 437, NH's been widely declared as set in stone, meant to be, blah blah blah. Not by all NH shippers of course, but a good majority of them. Now think, exactly how many chapters has this recent NH development gotten? Let's see:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


I agree.  I like NaruHina.  It's cute, and could work under the right cercomstances.  But most NaruHina shippers act like they're soul-mates, and nothing can stop them from loving each other.  I don't believe in soul-mates.  I believe a relationship works because you _make_ it work.

I support NaruSaku more because it makes more sense.  Naruto spends all his time with Sakura.  Could he spend that it with Hinata?  Yeah, but what's the motivation?  She loves him, so suddenly he's got to drop everything for her?  I've noticed most NaruHina shippers are _female_.  That explains that belief. 



Kitsune Naruto said:


> Now, Naruto does appreciate and most likely admire Hinata as of now because of her sacrifice, but that does not change the simple fact that he does not understand her and she does not understand him. No, she does not. She looks at Naruto like he's a demi-god; a semi-perfect being with flaws that are excusable, and based on this she has created an image of him. She knows _nothing_ of his problems. She wasn't there for him when Sasuke left, she wasn't there when he was informed what happened to jinchuuriki's that lose their Bijuu, she wasn't there when he collapsed on the ground, crying over his friend Sasuke, she wasn't there for him when Jiraya died, she wasn't there for him when he trained for days/weeks without end trying to become stronger in order to fulfill his goal; bringing back Sasuke, becoming Hokage and earning the _respect and admiration_ of Sakura (succeeded!) and she was there when... Naruto was beaten. One time. That's it, and that is the actual development of NH in part two.


Yeah, I was hoping for a NaruHina scene back in the "Search For Sasuke".  But do we get that?  Nope. 



Black Flicka said:


> i mean why would relationship that masashi hasn't developed through whole naruto become real in 2 CHAPTERS! WHY OH WHY?! IF NARUSAKU HAS BEEN DEVELOPED THROUGH 400 CHAPTERS! you can say whatever the hell you want that narusaku hasn't been developed but i can show you how they did even BEFORE sasuke left!



Exactly why I'm more supportive of NaruSaku.  Also because so many NaruHina shippers are blind Sakura-bashers.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 14, 2009)

saasha said:


> How do you propose she do that when the reason she fell in love with him in the first place still exists? Until Sasuke specifically tells her that he's in love with someone else (fat chance), I dont see her attempting to move on.


It could be a number of things that make her let go.  Him just not loving her, for one.  And I'm pretty sure his attemptive murder of Naruto affected her.



Zhang said:


> Black Flicka, put your sig in spoiler tags.
> 
> Anyways, that sig is a little biased, but we're not here to debate people's signature. .-.


I am!


*sarcasm ends*



phoenixblood said:


> Second, let me understand your line of reasoning.  Sakura already confessed her romantic feelings out loud to Sasuke, but unless she says it *again* out loud, then it is not proven (I agree it's not *proven* although I believe likely to remain as there has been no clear evidence to the contrary or even any kind of lessening/change in her regard of Sasuke, so I think previously established stance is more probable); on the other hand, Sakura, who has otherwise rejected Naruto's date requests, does not in this case need to say her feelings for Naruto out loud to be "obvious".  Tell me, why does Sakura need to verbalize her feelings in the case where she already had previously, but not the other where there is no prior romantic context established?


Sakura says "okay" the _ONLY_ time Naruto asks her out in part 2.




phoenixblood said:


> Also, Sasuke made no attempt to strike at Sakura until she first attacked him.  He also attacked Naruto, Sai, and Yamato.  His exact thoughts are unclear


Considering that, as far as he knew, Sakura wasn't a threat...why do you think he didn't try to kill her until she attacked him?



phoenixblood said:


> If you don't have respect for your opponent or their stance, I suggest you remove yourself from the debate.  A real debate should start with respect, no matter how much you may disagree with your opponent.  Otherwise it will escalate into fighting and insults and feed the wars between fandoms.  Why don't you try to be better than that?


Respect is not granted, it's erned.  If someone is not worth your respect, don't give it.  But I do think that we should expect people on this threat to deserve a certain level of respect.



phoenixblood said:


> And you do realize that SasuSaku is much more popular in Japan, and NaruHina is still more popular than NaruSaku.  In fact, KakaSaku is more popular than NaruSaku.  So I'm not sure what you mean by NaruHina has no chance in Japan?  Besides, what do fandoms have to do with what will be canon?


Last I heard, NejiHina is the popular Hinata pairing.  Where did you get your information.  Mine, basically, came from a friend of a friend.  I want a _reliable_ source to be trusted with this information.



Black Flicka said:


> i completely agree with that part
> it's just a "love" triangle
> you can't have one without another
> but we know some things
> ...



Nice work.  This should slow down the NaruSaku-bashers for a while.


----------



## Milkshake (Apr 14, 2009)

> So by that logic Sakura has the same importance to Naruto than Kiba or Shino? Weren't people saying that Sakura was almost as important as Sasuke a while ago? *confused*
> 
> Even when they're all their important people, I just don't think it would've been the same if it had been Chouji or Hinata. It would've served the same purpose (go Kyuubi) but the relationship with that person, in this instance Hinata, would definitely change and would be completely different if it had been Chouji, Hinata or any random Hyuuga.


*
When have I said that; I said that all of the Rookie 9 mean differently for each person; however in my opinion- anyone he hasn't had much mutual conversations with, someone who he hardly notices like Hinata would be of less importance than some who he knows one-on-one and actually likes at that. Sakura IS more important than Kiba or Shino, because they've shared one of the most strongest bond thus far. Have Kiba and Naruto talked in their spare time? Off missions? No, but Sakura and Naruto have. They have that strong connection that you can see how it differs from ones he has with members from the other teams. Shikamaru is possibly the closest person (other than Gaara) who is closest with out of T7. They've bonded more than both Hinata and Naruto have; and have shared mutuality in a sense that Hinata didn't step up and do. That doesn't mean Hinata isn't important in any way to Naruto, just not that is THAT MUCH differenting from his bonds with Neji, Kiba, Shino.

I don't think the situation would've changed tremendously; just as in the fact that he'd be just as worried as he was now with Hinata, because someone like Chouji is equally as important as well. Some NH fans are trying to make it seem like Hinata's the most important person in this equation; however, I'm only using this comparision to make you see that this is most likely invalid- seeing that Naruto's most precious bonds originate from Team 7 but there still are other important bonds that he doesn't get so often to develop. (the rest of the Rookie 9, excluding Shikamaru in a way) <<<Hinata is apart of that group.

I won't go into the difference of Naruto's bonds he has with everyone because their all special in his regard just in different ways.*



> The whole Naruto naming Hinata separately is to give her emphasis from Kishimoto's part and to show us that he hadn't forgotten about her like some hypothesized. I don't think it should be dismissed as a "he would've done it for anyone", which even when it is a true statement, I don't think should be taken to that extent. It was still HINATA, period.
> 
> Look at it form this point of view. If you hit someone with a car you would be worried about that person whoever he/she might be. But if that person happened to be someone who is close to you then it would have a lot more of an impact if it had been a nameless hobo.
> At least that's the point I am (and other NHs) trying to convey.



*
Are you inferring (remember I'm only inferring) that if Chouji toke the hit; he would be a nameless hobo while Hinata would be important because she's HINATA? I take the fact that Kishimoto possibly used Hinata as the person to protect him from Pein because not only that; he could tie off loose ends of her crush on him as well. Hinata's feelings hadn't come in light and who else would be capable of pulling this off other than Hinata; the girl who likes Naruto, and was basically fodder for much of P2? That doesn't set aside the fact that it makes Hinata more important to Naruto than someone like Chouji or Shikamaru, just because he singled her out. That what it seemed was inferred.*

[/QUOTE]



saasha said:


> Then why even bring it up if it isn't relevant to her romantic status? because that is what we are debating isn't it? Her romantic status?
> *The reason I said that Sakura's reasons for wanting Sasuke back was highly influenced by Naruto's is because it seemed like you were inferring that because of ONLY HER BOND WITH SASUKE, it seemed like JUST that one fact took the cake. Which is not true in any sense. I was just making it clear that Sakura isn't only doing this because of her needs but for others like Naruto as well, SHE'S NOT SELFISH WITH HER FEELINGS FOR SASUKE ENOUGH TO IGNORE NARUTO'S AND JUST WANT HIM BACK FOR HERSELF ONLY. Using her strong feelings towards Naruto into this contribute with that fact. I'm not inferring you said this but that's the vibe I got.*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> *
> When have I said that; I said that all of the Rookie 9 mean differently for each person; however in my opinion- anyone he hasn't had much mutual conversations with, someone who he hardly notices like Hinata would be of less importance than some who he knows one-on-one and actually likes at that.*


* 

Again, he has had mutual conversations with Hinata & he does like her as a person. They have enough of a basis for Naruto to think about dating her.





			Sakura IS more important than Kiba or Shino, because they've shared one of the most strongest bond thus far. Have Kiba and Naruto talked in their spare time? Off missions? No, but Sakura and Naruto have. They have that strong connection that you can see how it differs from ones he has with members from the other teams. Shikamaru is possibly the closest person (other than Gaara) who is closest with out of T7. They've bonded more than both Hinata and Naruto have; and have shared mutuality in a sense that Hinata didn't step up and do. That doesn't mean Hinata isn't important in any way to Naruto, just not that is THAT MUCH differenting from his bonds with Neji, Kiba, Shino.
		
Click to expand...


You were clearly delegating Hinata's level of importance to that of the villagers. I simply pointed out to you that that wasn't the case. I don't have a issue with the rest.




			I won't go into the difference of Naruto's bonds he has with everyone because their all special in his regard just in different way.
		
Click to expand...


Agreed. It would be nice if people acknowledged this about Hinata as well instead of downplaying her importance.*


----------



## LDA (Apr 14, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I think you missed the _only_ time in part 2 that he asked her out.  She said "okay".  Did that get mistraslated when you read it?
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly why I'm more supportive of NaruSaku.  Also because so many NaruHina shippers are blind Sakura-bashers.



I just passed by and wanted to address these two points. The first part; are *you* reading the manga and not missing points? Not to be rude, but he's asked her out several times. The first, she said, "Does that mean [Naruto's] buying?", The second, "If [Sakura] had that much free time, [she]'d study more ninjutsu!", the third, "*Fool*! Lady Tsunade has summoned [them]." (These are VIZ translations)

and I just wanted to say to please not generalize; I am a NaruHina supporter and I absolutely adore Sakura. You generalizing the NaruHina fandom is a fallacy. Please try to stay away from comments such as those.


----------



## Milkshake (Apr 14, 2009)

saasha said:


> Again, he has had mutual conversations with Hinata & he does like her as a person. They have enough of a basis for Naruto to think about dating her.
> *
> One conversation = still not as close as they SHOULD BE. Hinata could've token the intiative to go out to Naruto herself; but she didn't.
> However I will agree this gives her somewhat of a basis for Naruto to think about accepting her confession.
> ...



Thanks for the conversation ^_^ I'm getting lazy so I'll be off.


----------



## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

> The reason I said that Sakura's reasons for wanting Sasuke back was highly influenced by Naruto's is because it seemed like you were inferring that because of ONLY HER BOND WITH SASUKE, it seemed like JUST that one fact took the cake. Which is not true in any sense. I was just making it clear that Sakura isn't only doing this because of her needs but for others like Naruto as well, SHE'S NOT SELFISH WITH HER FEELINGS FOR SASUKE ENOUGH TO IGNORE NARUTO'S AND JUST WANT HIM BACK FOR HERSELF ONLY. Using her strong feelings towards Naruto into this contribute with that fact. I'm not inferring you said this but that's the vibe I got.



*I didn't infer anything of the sort. *




> Sasuke can't go out of his way for the person he considers 'important?' He went out of his way to actually turn around and look at Naruto at the VOTE, what does that say? He explained fully to him about his reasoning other than with Sakura where he had his back turned away and gave her simple reasons compared.



*Actually, as far as I can recall, he didnt explain himself to Naruto at all. Instead, he raged at him & told him that he doesn't understand what it means to have bonds & then lose them. Sakura is the only one he's ever tried to explain himself too as far as I can remember. *




> Sakura giving him a calming affect goes into tribute with her caring personality with him. Where has Sasuke shown nothing but outmost friendship to Sakura? Show me some manga panels, not your opinion.



*You're being contradictory. Weren't you the one who said that they weren't friends; that he didn't consider her his friend, that she was just a teammate who he felt obligated to care for? I never claimed that Sasuke felt anything romantic towards Sakura back then.*



> Sakura WAS Sasuke's important person. Naruto WAS Sasuke's important person as well. Are they that important that he would turn around and sail back home anymore? No. But the significance [sp] is still there.



*We're at an impasse here. Imo, the reason he couldn't turn back was because they were too important to him. His defection, in my eyes was a necessity, a necessity to protect them, to keep them away from the bloody mess that his past was, to fulfill his duty to his clan, to his brother & to himself, & to learn how to supress his curse seal, courtesy of orochimaru. He forced himself to sever his bonds with them, only to find out several hundred chapters later, that he never managed to do it at all. They still are his most important people to my knowledge.  *



> Show me some manga panels in which she showed atleast implying that her feelings for Sasuke are romantic.



*Like I already said, her romantic feelings for Sasuke have already been established. Imo, It is you who needs to prove whether or not her romantic feelings have waned/lessened. Any lessening of romantic feelings for Sasuke & growth of romantic feelings for naruto have to be interpreted. That is all. My stance on this isn't going to change until Sakura reveals her real feelings in the next few chapters.*

Also, I don't know how to link panels, how do I do that? My memory pretty good though, so hopefully that'll suffice for now. You can always correct me if my memory proves faulty.



> You can't compare Hinata and Naruto's relationship to those of Sakura and Sasuke.



Of, course. They're worlds apart. When did I compare them?




> Hinata is a side character, she's not supposed to have her feelings focused on, unless it's truly important to the plot.



I realise that, which is why I mentioned Naruto's feelings & how they weren't focused on at all. 





> Hinata didn't like Naruto for superficial reasons



*True*



> like Sakura did and didn't just decide that she would randomly at 7 years old because he was cute and popular.



*You dont know that she liked him because he was cute & popular. She didn;t even know he was popular when she first liked him. In fact, we don't know why it was that she was drawn to him.*



> Hinata/Naruto hardly has negative development like "Your annoying" to backslash one character's love for another.



*Sasuke has only ever called her annoying twice, both times for significant reasons. The first one brought out positive development in Sakura. The second one actually drove the point home that he didn't forget their first interaction like he pretended to. Neither felt like 'backlashing one character's love for another.*



> Two different relationships, both however one-sided. I'm not a NS fan, (shocker rite?)



*Not really, there have been other 'not NS' fan's who defend NS because they prefer that to SS. Hmm... maybe that's why you guys are so bad at it XD ( I kid)*



> so I can't debate on Naruto's focus of Sakura during the timeskip because I think there could've been more to make it less ambigious as well. Also the fact that Sakura's feelings are hardly focused on for Sasuke and even Naruto helps me maintain my stance of saying Sakura's side of SasuSaku is still ambigious, because it's not specifically romantic. Most of it is due to her selfless personality towards Naruto, but also her own reasonings. Atleast SOMETHING Naruto's side as been apparant to say that he atleast still LIKES her no? That's more for both Sakura and Sasuke in my regards.



*You need to elaborate on what her 'own reasons' might be & how do they prove her lessesning romantic feelings for Sasuke. It isn't ambiguos enough for me, though it will be, if in the next chapters she reveals that she also feels something romantic for Naruto.

As for Naruto, not really, no, I really see nothing that seriously suggests that he's in love with Sakura. Crushes are easier to get over once they have a new focus.*

I see that no one's confident enough to take my bet, too bad. I figured that it'd be a fun thing to do, XD

And, Thanx, Phoenixblood( Is Peebs alright? its shorter) for picking up my gauntlet against electricjaw.


----------



## Hikui (Apr 14, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Sorry to tell you, but what I said is the set definition regarding Red Herring that's been taught in Colleges and Universities all over the world for decades.
> 
> And you are very much incorrect about your assumption of Red Herrings being used.  Yes, JKR did use Red Herring in her Harry Potter Novels, but it wasnt with the romance, it was used to disguise the main plot revolving around Vordemort.
> 
> As for Red Herrings in Shoujo Mangas, trust me they aren't Red Herrings.   Instead, they are simple foreshadows.



No offense taken, but you're kidding me, right? Red Herrings can be used anywhere in the narrative. I said the it could be applied, not that the red herrings are always romantic.

 And I know JKR used red herrings for her plot (hell, I know HP like the back of my hand) but what I wanted to convey was that she also used red herrings for the romance. (And I think she stated so herself in an interview). Even when she never intended for people to take it seriously.

 I'm not illiterate, I know what I'm talking about.  



> In literature, the *most commonplace use* of a "red herring" is in mystery fiction.



This is probably what you're referring to. See the bold part? Yes, it meas it is not only used for solving mysteries. And just so you know, the first and oldest definition of red herring has nothing to do with literature or plot but on logic arguments. 

Here:


> A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.



That said, in narrative red herring means this:



> Red herrings are all about misdirection, misconceptions, and mistaken perceptions. They're about reading the clues wrongly, missing things, jumping to the wrong conclusions.



So yeah, it can be applied to romance. 



Tyrannos said:


> As for Red Herrings in Shoujo Mangas, trust me they aren't Red Herrings.   Instead, they are simple foreshadows.



How are they foreshadows? I don't get your logic....



Tyrannos said:


> No offense, but you _really_ don't know what a Red Herring arguement is.   Those aren't even close to being Red Herring.
> 
> Well those people were morons, because I for one pretty much saw Ron was going to end up with Hermione since the very beginning when they first interacted on the train.  Especially over the books with the romantic tension that was between them and none between Harry and Hermione.



The term Red Herring can be used for all kinds of arguments Tyrannos, as I pointed out above. That said, I'm not much of a Star Wars fan but as far as I know there were lots of people that believed Luke/Leia was cannon after the 5th (was it really the 5th?) movie was out.  But they turned out to be siblings  So, Luke/Leia diverted attention from the real pairing Han/Leia. So yeah, the term can be applied. 

As for knowing Ron/Hermione was going to happen then good for you. But lots of very educated people would strongly disagree with you (I don't mean me). And just so you know, Rowling did some faulty job in the romance department. 

That said, don't you think the H/Hr dynamic resembles N/S? Funny...



Tyrannos said:


> And Red Herrings are never double edged swords, unless an inexperienced novelist reveals what the Red Herring was trying to hide, ahead of time.



In the plot scenario, you're right. 

When used in romance they're double edged swords when say most of your audience "ships" for the other pairing. Even when you try to make it out interesting and know that there might be a pairing war (and might lose fans), if the majority of your readers root for the "wrong" relationship it means you failed to demonstrate the nature and the reason why the "original" is the best fit. Most of the time. So yeah, Kishimoto is awkward at romance. 




Tyrannos said:


> Last I checked, Dragonball was an Action Manga, not a romantic manga.
> 
> And again I reiterate with Dragonball, Chichi was just a plot to introduce Gohan for the second half of the story.  Outside of that she had no relevance.
> 
> ...



I mentioned Dragonball because the romance was dealt with "early" on the series not because it has a red herring. 

That said, action series ≠ no red herring. 

Btw, Chici wasn't a plot but a plot device. It might have no relevance for you but most of the characters if not all the characters are plot devices for the main character's growth. 




Tyrannos said:


> Yes, Kishimoto isn't good on the romance, because pretty much he's stuck to classic cliched scenes that many experienced readers of Manga and viewers of Anime have seen used dozens of times.   But many should recall that the manga revolves around the action and of Naruto's plot (being the title character).   So if anything, Naruto's feelings for Sakura are very significant.
> 
> Which basically goes back to the old standby arguement:
> 
> ...



Agreed, even when I don't really get your point. 
Is this supposed to be a pro-Narusaku argument? a pro-Naruto can't get over Sakura argument? I don't get the relevance. 

To end this argument, my original idea was only to show you that red herrings can be applied to romance, and that NaruSaku might be one.

That said, I just don't think Kishimoto is doing this for the simple reason that he isn't good with romance and that emotions in the Naruverse are normally very straightforward (so using red herrings would be counterproductive if he's not experienced. So if NaruSaku is not the final pairing and people claim it's a red herring I would call it coincidence-to fit the description....sort of.)

I just wanted to prove a point. Hope I made sense and we don't come back to this. 

I'll be back


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## Misha (Apr 14, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> first about naruhina: hinata confessed and naruto did O.O face
> second about narusaku: i mean how blind you must be not to see that naruto is in love with sakura?! that's so obvious! BUT we didn't get confession from either side
> third about sasusaku: sakura confessed and she got knocked out from sasuke -.-



You obviously took Sasuke's leaving to lightly. True, he knocked her out, but to make sure she wouldnt scream or follow him. He didn't knock her out because he felt like being a jerk. 



Black Flicka said:


> so the only pair left WITHOUT any I LOVE YOU'S is NARUSAKU! so they will get their chance last so guess what happens then....



your working on pure assumption 



Black Flicka said:


> and i saw some people saying that narusaku DOES NOT develop!
> Here
> ok so on this link it's quite obvious that sakura is naruto crush
> yea, yea she's not his real love blah, blah etc. you'll see
> ...



he said he understood why he _liked_ her, not loved her. Secondly, Naruto really wanted acceptance from everyone,which includes Sakura, and that is what Sakura wanted from Sasuke. 
Not to mention I dont take Naruto's feelings for her very seriously at the start of the manga. 



Black Flicka said:


> Here
> and finally sakura starts to understand a bit of naruto's feelings and decides to be nicer to him!



She only decides to do this because of Sasuke


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## saasha (Apr 14, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> No, not really. If I wanted somebody to run around me, I'd buy a dog.



LOL.

I really wanna know, Who's that in your avatar & sig? What anime is it? They're too cute.


----------



## LDA (Apr 14, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> i completely agree with that part
> it's just a "love" triangle
> you can't have one without another
> but we know some things
> ...



Dazzle me.



> Link removed
> here we see naruto is jelous! i mean duh!



Yeah, Naruto is jealous that Sakura, "...looks like she's in total ecstasy," as she stares at Sasuke. Sasuke is also jealous when Sakura looks at Naruto in chapter 144 pg. 6-7. Parallels are neat, aren't they?



> Link removed
> and here is how much alike they are! and that's good


 alikeness=/= romantic. It is a start, though. But this scene is more of a parallel of Sakura's hate for Naruto and Naruto's love/like/crush/whatever for Sakura. Good try, though.



> Link removed
> naruto practically understands sakura so much here that he knows exactly what she wants to hear!


...And disguises himself as her crush as he says it and thinks of manipulating her through trying to make her hate Sasuke (Pg.19; "[Naruto] could make Sakura hate Sasuke..." background sound effects, "Heh-heh-heh-heh," as he finishes with, "...that could work."

Very romantic and good for a basis of a relationship? Once again, no, but good try.



> Link removed
> now here naruto understands why he loves sakura! because they are so much alike! only thing she wants is to acknowledge her! the same as naruto! AND HERE IS MENTIONED LOVE NOT A CRUSH!



In the *official* translated Naruto volume 1, it says, "... What [Naruto] love *about* [Sakura!]." This is a single attribute and not a whole. What I love about my best friend is for her ability to make me laugh, but I don't love her romantically.

(I use VIZ translations due to them not being bias. Translators tend to add things or change context due to pairing bias. This has happened before in the Naruto series, so you shouldn't place random translators so high on pedestals.)

Once again, good try.



> Link removed
> and finally sakura starts to understand a bit of naruto's feelings and decides to be nicer to him!
> AND ALL OF THIS HAPPENS JUST IN MANGA NUMBER 3! HOW BLIND ARE U?! NARUSAKU NOT DEVELOPING?! SOME OF YOU ARE REALLY PISSING ME OFF!



...Because Sasuke told her that what she said made him sick. If he had said nothing she would not think to treat him nicer. Besides, treating nicer =/= love/romatic feelings.



> I read too that some of you think that naruto's trick are pissing of sakura! well not everytime! here you go:
> Calaberas Neutralized
> and again how alike they really are:
> Link removed



Woot! You have something we can agree with! I personally think Sakura thinks his tricks are cool *in the beginning* and this is proof. 

So, overall, many of these, "moments", are based on misconceptions of context as a whole. Bring something else and I will be happy to go through this again (or if you have a rebuttal to my statements, that is fine too.)


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## Forlong (Apr 14, 2009)

LuvDaAlchemist said:


> I just passed by and wanted to address these two points. The first part; are *you* reading the manga and not missing points? Not to be rude, but he's asked her out several times. The first, she said, "Does that mean [Naruto's] buying?", The second, "If [Sakura] had that much free time, [she]'d study more ninjutsu!", the third, "*Fool*! Lady Tsunade has summoned [them]." (These are VIZ translations)
> 
> and I just wanted to say to please not generalize; I am a NaruHina supporter and I absolutely adore Sakura. You generalizing the NaruHina fandom is a fallacy. Please try to stay away from comments such as those.



I'm sorry if it seamed like I was generalizing.  Like I said, most NaruHina shippers I've met hate Sakura for no rational reason.  So, maybe I do have a tendancy to generalize them.

As for your points of Naruto asking her out:
I don't see anything wrong with her telling Naruto to pay.  I hope you're not implying that it negtates that fact that it was a date.  Of course, she backs out when he asks her to pitch in.  But that doesn't make her a b*%$&.  She might have thought he was just being cheap, not that he couldn't affort it.  Jiraiya probably emptied Naruto's wallet ages ago.

Your second point is refering to a time when Sakura was asking Sasuke out.  I don't see how that's relivent to what I was talking about.

The third point you brought up was when Naruto thought Sakura was asking him out.  That's a bit different, I think.

You are right, though.  That wasn't the only time Naruto asked Sakura out.  He did it twice in part 1.  The first case was when they were on The Great Naruto Bridge.  Sakura said no.  The second case was after Sasuke just finished talking down on her.  I think he was trying to cheer her up, but she was to glum to respond.

The point I was making was that she doesn't seem to upset at the prospect of being on a date with Naruto as people are making out.


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## Hikui (Apr 14, 2009)

I missed you! 	
I think you need to spoiler tag 


peaceluvx said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



I get your point, I was only asking for clarification. And yeah some NH fans are trying to to make it seem as if she were the most important, I'm not. I'm just saying that it isn't fair to say "it could have been anyone". And even when I agree with you to some extent, I don't think Hinata has the same relevance than Chouji. Don't forget he did bond with her separately, he made a blood oath for her, so yeah. 

And I don't think Kishimoto was writing that scene and decided "this is a good place to end Hinata's theme, yeah!". He wanted it to happen that way, and probably had it planned all along, because he wanted the confession to be important. Sure it killed two birds of one shot, but if he had wanted us to say "it could have been anyone" he would've made Hinata's confession less critical and dramatic. 

I hope I made sense.







peaceluvx said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Are you inferring (remember I'm only inferring) that if Chouji toke the hit; he would be a nameless hobo while Hinata would be important because she's HINATA? I take the fact that Kishimoto possibly used Hinata as the person to protect him from Pein because not only that; he could tie off loose ends of her crush on him as well. Hinata's feelings hadn't come in light and who else would be capable of pulling this off other than Hinata; the girl who likes Naruto, and was basically fodder for much of P2? That doesn't set aside the fact that it makes Hinata more important to Naruto than someone like Chouji or Shikamaru, just because he singled her out. That what it seemed was inferred.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I didn't say Chouji=nameless hobo. Just to clarify. And please don't call Hinata fodder, I like her	. That statement had to do with Hinata meant the same than anyone in the village argument, say Villager #1156. That's just degrading her character like Saasha said.


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## Erendhyl (Apr 14, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Your second point is refering to a time when Sakura was asking Sasuke out.  I don't see how that's relivent to what I was talking about.



There was a time when Naruto asked Sakura out though, and Sakura responded by saying if he had time to do that he should go study ninjutsu or something.


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## LDA (Apr 14, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I'm sorry if it seamed like I was generalizing.  Like I said, most NaruHina shippers I've met hate Sakura for no rational reason.  So, maybe I do have a tendancy to generalize them.



That's okay  I tend to run into the exact opposite you do and never see NH shippers who hate Sakura. I know they do, but we shippers never see the darkness of our own fandoms; it's a sad fate.




> As for your points of Naruto asking her out:
> I don't see anything wrong with her telling Naruto to pay.  I hope you're not implying that it negtates that fact that it was a date.  Of course, she backs out when he asks her to pitch in.  But that doesn't make her a b*%$&.  She might have thought he was just being cheap, not that he couldn't affort it.  Jiraiya probably emptied Naruto's wallet ages ago.



No, no. I have no problem if Sakura paid. Actually, according to dating ettiquette, whoever asks whom out is supposed to pay (but who follows the rules anyway, ne?). I pointed it out because it was a failed date attempt. (And I agree about that Jiraiya comment )



> Your second point is refering to a time when Sakura was asking Sasuke out.  I don't see how that's relivent to what I was talking about.



:/ No, this happened in volume 35 when they were about to go see Kakashi when he was bedridden from using the mangekyou sharingan.



> The third point you brought up was when Naruto thought Sakura was asking him out.  That's a bit different, I think.



She still reacted pretty violently (not physically, mind you) to the idea that he thought of it. 



> You are right, though.  That wasn't the only time Naruto asked Sakura out.  He did it twice in part 1.  The first case was when they were on The Great Naruto Bridge.  Sakura said no.  The second case was after Sasuke just finished talking down on her.  I think he was trying to cheer her up, but she was to glum to respond.



It kind of saddens me that the only time Kishi allowed them to have a date centers around Sasuke and to cheer her up. I'm an anti-NS fan, but I like to look at pairings from what is logical- i.e. if there is an NS moment I'll admit it and not try to downplay it.



> The point I was making was that she doesn't seem to upset at the prospect of being on a date with Naruto as people are making out.



She only reacted badly once, so I won't argue that "OMG she hates it!!!"; and I agree that it is sometimes blown out of proportion (as are all things in the narutoverse for the sake of pairings)


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## Forlong (Apr 14, 2009)

LuvDaAlchemist said:


> Yeah, Naruto is jealous that Sakura, "...looks like she's in total ecstasy," as she stares at Sasuke. Sasuke is also jealous when Sakura looks at Naruto in chapter 144 pg. 6-7. Parallels are neat, aren't they?


Sorry, but I looked and I don't see it.  Maybe he is jealous, but I don't see any pannels indicating that.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> ...And disguises himself as her crush as he says it and thinks of manipulating her through trying to make her hate Sasuke (Pg.19; "[Naruto] could make Sakura hate Sasuke..." background sound effects, "Heh-heh-heh-heh," as he finishes with, "...that could work."
> 
> Very romantic and good for a basis of a relationship? Once again, no, but good try.


He _was_ the class clown, so it doesn't surprise me.  He did fail epically, so Sakura _might_ not be to mad, if she finds out.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> In the *official* translated Naruto volume 1, it says, "... What [Naruto] love *about* [Sakura!]." This is a single attribute and not a whole. What I love about my best friend is for her ability to make me laugh, but I don't love her romantically.



Some languages have more than one word for love.  Is Japanese one of those languages?  That might help settle this.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> ...Because Sasuke told her that what she said made him sick. If he had said nothing she would not think to treat him nicer. Besides, treating nicer =/= love/romatic feelings.


I knew Sasuke was good for something. 



Erendhyl said:


> There was a time when Naruto asked Sakura out though, and Sakura responded by saying if he had time to do that he should go study ninjutsu or something.


Ah, I did forget that.  But the actual context is:

Naruto: I was just devising a plan for the two of us to go on a walk, almost like a date!
Sakura: If you have the time to do that, then you should go study ninjutsu or something!
...
Sakura: Training involves the mind as well as the body.

Now, Sakura isn't being harsh here.  Maybe saying that Naruto doesn't have to make devious plans, he can just ask.  Maybe I'm drawing to much from it there, but look at her face.  She seems amused, not angry.  She's also trying to get Naruto to better himself.  Look what it took for her to better herself.  Oh, Sasuke telling her the _same thing_.

I'll admit, I misunderstood what LDA said.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> No, no. I have no problem if Sakura paid. Actually, according to dating ettiquette, whoever asks whom out is supposed to pay (but who follows the rules anyway, ne?). I pointed it out because it was a failed date attempt. (And I agree about that Jiraiya comment )


I hope Naruto told Jiraiya that he got out of a date because of all the money the old perv took. 



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> :/ No, this happened in volume 35 when they were about to go see Kakashi when he was bedridden from using the mangekyou sharingan.


Yeah, I understand that now.  Sorry I misunderstood.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> She still reacted pretty violently (not physically, mind you) to the idea that he thought of it.


Maybe she was mad that he couldn't tell from her tone that it was a business call.  Maybe that coupled with him eating junk and sleeping in.  I'm not sure how else to explain it.  But your point is valid.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> It kind of saddens me that the only time Kishi allowed them to have a date centers around Sasuke and to cheer her up. I'm an anti-NS fan, but I like to look at pairings from what is logical- i.e. if there is an NS moment I'll admit it and not try to downplay it.


Glad to see you're big enough to admit that.  I'll admit the NaruHina momments.  In fact, I like them.  But one NaruHina momment doesn't make the pairing canon.  We'll see what Naruto does about his interesting situation in time.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> She only reacted badly once, so I won't argue that "OMG she hates it!!!"; and I agree that it is sometimes blown out of proportion (as are all things in the narutoverse for the sake of pairings)



Agreed.  There are wierdos in both branches.  Maybe my disbelieve in soul-mates has made me supportive of NaruSaku.


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## Milkshake (Apr 14, 2009)

To Saasha: My post wasn't submitted successfully, however I will be back tomorrow to reply one last time. This is getting sickly boring.


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## Drunkenwhale (Apr 14, 2009)

LuvDaAlchemist said:


> She still reacted pretty violently (not physically, mind you) to the idea that he thought of it.



It wasn't the idea of a date, she had some pressure put on her because Tsunade wanted them both there _immediately_ and he was still half-asleep. As Tsunade's student she should know that getting the Hokage mad is dangerous.


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## Milkshake (Apr 14, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I missed you!
> I think you need to spoiler tag
> 
> 
> ...



I agree on some points but still; at the point I really though Hina was fodder enough that said villiage could've token that shot and had the same as well. i don't see how it was degrading her character because she is sorta fodder for just getting some attention now, and her lack of mutality with naruto shows that.

nice debating with you.~


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 14, 2009)

phoenixblood said:


> _*Continuing from last week, sorry for the delay, holiday weekend and all....*_



No problem at all.



> Question - in terms of _this series_, is romantic influence supposed to be important, or the most important?  And I think I prefer the term significant over important.  Importance I think carries the connotation of more constant focus - which, using the example of Gaara - they have the very minimum paneltime of interaction - basically one fight.  *And yet, Naruto reacts on Sasuke-level rashness and temper.*  Because Gaara was that significant to him despite very little focus or paneltime.  In a way, Naruto relates to Gaara like no one else due to their shared fate of being hated jinchuuriki.  Even left Sakura to fight Akatsuki (with others to help) and went after Gaara personally.
> 
> That's pretty significant, and yet, it's showcased minimally, with no hint of romance.  And I don't bring this up to downplay other bonds in comparison - because I don't think that's the point - nitpicking who is "more important", because that kind of defeats the message of bonds are important if its readers are arguing over which they rank as THE MOST important.  Especially if we're measuring romance by the same stick, because Kishi has admitted to not really knowing how to write girls, so they get less paneltime.  *That doesn't mean the relationships with the girls are less important/significant, just Kishi prefers to write the bromance,* so we see a lot more of that than anything else.



Look, think what you like, but reading other shounen and just interpreting in general I can't give significance to what I believe lacks. The Big 3 fails in terms of romance in different ways but SasuSaku in almost every one of them it's almost embarrassing [just my opinion, of  course]. And I'll tell you why the Gaara example is faulty to the extent it fails to demonstrate anything on the matter.
Not only was Naruto _already_frustrated in that arc cos he failed to save Sasuke [or why the helk would he had mentioned it when he was crying for Gaara?], he couldn't afford to see an example of himself and a person he managed to reach in the darkness be lost again, let alone to the Akatsuki [...]. Ignoring context to make the "lack of panel-time" justification is just another way of grasping at straws to me. A character's role is explicitly there or it isn't. It's not a question of just the lack of panel-time, genre of the manga, or the author's lack of ability in _romance_. It's Kishimoto's clear intent until further notice especially since the lack is more than evident. Plus, if Naruto left Sakura one needs to take in account Kakashi did as well. In evaluation of what each could accomplish on that mission Naruto didn't just "leave Sakura for Gaara" [as many love to use as some sort of arguement]. Like you seem to have mentioned yourself, it isn't a case for comparison. However, this does NOT give various influences significance they do not have or bring the ability to categorize the Naruto/Sasuke interaction in such generalizing manner. This is what I think.



> Having written all that, I'll now get to what I view as Sakura's influence on Sasuke.
> 
> I'll once again bring up Chapter 36 just as an illustration.  This time I want to bring up the point that Sasuke sets aside his normally comparative/competitive nature (a result of his avenger goal) and has no trouble acknowledging an area that Sakura exceeds him.  With Naruto, he's not satisfied if Naruto does more than _tie_ him.  While this does push him, Sakura is someone he can just be a normal person around who isn't quite as obsessed about improving to face Itachi.  Let me bring up more examples where Sakura is someone Sasuke finds comfort in, or someone to talk to (outside of near-death moments).



Okay. You are totally ignoring out of convenience the complexity of the Naruto/Sasuke interaction to put SasuSaku on a pedestal it doesn't deserve in terms of strong evidence or common knowledge. The fact Sasuke won't let Sakura in his way is pounded upon in many of those moments let alone by Sakura herself in the end. I totally disagree that Sasuke can be a normal person around Sakura in a particular way, esp that favors romance, let alone for the fact that the excuse that he is not obsessed with competition when it comes to her, when he has shown the contrary including his total lack of consideration in general; thus I'm afraid dismissal is unavoidable.
1. Naruto being the person that diffracts Sasuke's mind from revenge effectively and the most is utter CANON in the manga, anime, and databook. And that means by changing, swaying, and *calming* Sasuke's heart.
2. Sasuke treated Naruto in a redeeming way, showing not only conspicuous emotion, but undeniable fondness of Naruto, unlike to Sakura in any obvious way.
3. Sasuke has been able to acknowledge Naruto's qualities AND abilities far more than he ever did with Sakura, and became disoriented negatively after his encounter with Itachi since Naruto is an actual threat to his goal with his influence and not only to Sasuke's superiority complex. But guess what, he acknowledged Naruto as an equal [not just "supposedly" with jumbled notions, but symbolically (putting his headband on during the VotE - that bastard of Sasuke even smiled) and after Kakashi made it clear that recognizing Naruto would have been like denying his reason of existance.]. This alone destroys your presumed equality theory for SasuSaku.
The notion that Sakura doesn't give Sasuke any obligation of competition is just another reason for me to think the pairing fails! His compliment towards her wasn't only DUE and coincidently perfect for his ego, it fails to show that he is intrigued by her in any way over Naruto when it comes to the countless times he's shown admiration for the latter! Do you ever see Sasuke reflecting about Sakura for consideration that isn't in relation to Naruto ? No. How can _one_ compliment, when Sasuke has been able to give up ambition and body for Naruto admitting it to the latter's face and feeling so shy about it after, prove ANYTHING that is seriously valid? Derived logic not even NaruSaku would use in such shameless manner, even if they have more examples _with validity_ than SasuSaku does [not to mention related to relief and encouragement!] - but double standards are ignored unless you're somene of rare objectivity. I honestly still need to see SS apply the same standards it gives to its pairing to the others as well. Too hard I guess when those are clearly superior, with or without whatever context. You can't single out things to give birth to unfounded theories that support other pairings far more. For instance I can affirm that Sakura is her more normal [and in various ways positive] self thanks to Naruto and actually have numerous, not to mention pivotal, canon events to support it.



> Chapter 7 - Sasuke didn't need to stay and explain anything.  In fact, he missed his chance for one last attempt before the time was up in order to stay with her until she woke up, and then talked about why he had to try so hard.



Explaining to her was pretty necessary since she didn't have a friggen clue [even after he told her]. She had provoked his response by saying "we can just do it next time" and as always it never failed to remind him how petty and hindering she/everything else [except strong people, even Naruto despite of it all, lol] is in comparson to his life-meaning revenge. Impressive...



> Chapter 50 - Sasuke grips Sakura's hand for support.  She provides not only physical comfort to him (hand holding), but tries to give him words of comfort as well.  This also makes me recall when they finally make it through the 2nd round and it is Sakura who Sasuke is willing to lean on for support (Chapter 63).  These are just little things, but things he lets Sakura do for him that I don't recall him looking to anyone else for.



Sasuke grips Sakura's hand for WHAT!?

Lmao. Not merely for the idea itself but the evidence used. Not only - ONCE AGAIN - does Sasuke show instances of this sort with Naruto when he is pwnt or suffering, it doesn't prove anything.
She had took his hand and he was too warped to probably even care _who_ it was. The poor tree he was digging his nails in is just as worthy of giving him physical comfort from what I see ._.
"These little things" pale to those of NaruSaku, or, heaven forbid, Sasuke/Naruto. Sasuke has always been very unambiguous in the fact Sakura gives him no special relief physically [!?!?!?!?] or mentally. Let's ignore that Sakura is his teammate and a good-willing girl who may take any chance to help him so, and make farfetched assumptions she has some significant physical affect of him, when she most probably doesn't. Naruto, unlike Sakura, has never groped or shown direct physical affection to Sasuke except when the latter was unconscious in the Wave Arc but even then STILL surpasses Sakura in such sense. Remember all those times Sasuke said "let go" or "that's enough" to her with no visible or lingering regret (esp when he was mentally stable)? Well I do. And I don't see him leaning on her body like he did with Naruto in the reunion scene.

Seriously. This is an evidently wishful arguement that could work better for even ItaSasu.

[to be continued]


----------



## Hikui (Apr 14, 2009)

peaceluvx said:


> I agree on some points but still; at the point I really thought Hina was fodder enough that said villiage could've token that shot and had the same as well. i don't see how it was degrading her character because she is sorta fodder for just getting some attention now, and her lack of mutuality with naruto shows that.
> 
> nice debating with you.~



I don't think Hinata= village, just no.  Even the villagers as a whole mean a lot to Naruto (he wants to be Hokage afterall,) Naruto doesn't have any kind of relationship with all villagers. Same as I said before, even if it would've had the same end (Kyuubi) it would be completely different in the personal level. 

That said, you can disagree if you want. 

And about her being fodder because she lacks mutuality with Naruto is just a weak argument. The relationship between Sasuke and Naruto is no longer mutual, but it still means a lot to him. 

And even when Naruto/Hinata are not romantically mutual, there's friendship between them that is definitely mutual.

So *if *Hinata is fodder, how you say, that isn't the reason. 

Nice debate. 

*bored*

@izzyisozaki: that's what I call a long post.


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## Milkshake (Apr 14, 2009)

Oh shit, I mean to say that she lacks 'conversations' with Naruto, or just having screentime in general if it wasn't for this stunt she pulled. and Hinata does have a signifigant relationship with Naruto in her own way; just as the other Rookie 9 as I stated to Saasha.


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## gabzilla (Apr 15, 2009)

saasha said:


> LOL.
> 
> I really wanna know, Who's that in your avatar & sig? What anime is it? They're too cute.



Edge and Rydia from FF4



Forlong said:


> The point I was making was that she doesn't seem to upset at the prospect of being on a date with Naruto as people are making out.



She doesn't seem interested either.



Forlong said:


> He _was_ the class clown, so it doesn't surprise me.  He did fail epically, so Sakura _might_ not be to mad, if she finds out.



You don't think Sakura would be pissed if she found out Naruto henged as Sasuke to make Sakura hate Sasuke and trick her into kissing Naruto?


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## Drunkenwhale (Apr 15, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> You don't think Sakura would be pissed if she found out Naruto henged as Sasuke to make Sakura hate Sasuke and trick her into kissing Naruto?



If I was a girl I would be.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 15, 2009)

> Chapter 56 - I want to draw attention to page 16 in particular.  Look at the close up of their eyes.  This, to me anyway, signifies an emotional connection.  And I believe DB1 also describes this scene as there being an emotional connection between the two, but I'd have to look up Sakura's profile again to refresh my memory.  But my point is Naruto isn't the only one Sasuke feels a connection to.



Emotional eye-contact ? SASUNARU FTW!
Okay let me explain shortly why I don't find such scene considerable unless one wishes to enter double standard land, let alone find Sakura's "calming effect" on any important level in comparison to Naruto's. I'll even ignore she looks terrified by his glare during so-called "connection".
Sasuke just woke up from a nightmare reminding him of his impotence to save or defend anything near to him, giving him an incredible desire to try out his new power to fulfill such purpose, that of being an avenger. Cackling in laughter while doing so just supports my reasoning, let alone she stopped him just as Naruto could have, with far less perhaps, considering it was enough for him to say "what's this showing off for" to help give Sasuke strength during his first Chuunin match to suppress his curse seal, cos be just those mere words, Sasuke felt or was reminded of Naruto's concern for him without it having to be said out loud [not to mention look like NaruSaku, lol] but no one cares about Naruto's regard towards Sasuke in the FoD . This isn't even one of the main reasons I don't think Sasuke and Sakura connect meaningfully. SasuSaku gets such merit cos Sasuke has no significant vulnerability with her, which is seen as an advantage when in fact it dismisses an important concept in romance, esp that which is of mutual strength.
Let me show you how even I can "dig for evidence" in attempt to construct favorable notions for my pairing in that range of chapters.
Sasuke uses his sharingan in attempt to help Naruto, after Naruto insisted that Sasuke do nothing and not get involved etc. cos he felt Sasuke had something wrong after seeing Sasuke be paralyzed in front of a kunai. When Sasuke screams in pain, Naruto turns around automatically even though he's in the middle of a fight for concern, risking to get stabbed by a ninja clone Creating interpretative notions is fun, but pretty useless when it comes to debating with well-founded evidence  and hopefully you'll realize why I keep telling you this.



> With Sakura, it's a calming effect, while with Naruto is a driving effect.  Both are important and significant.



Naruto isn't just a driving effect. And since you decided to bring out the databook I decided to use it as well to show you how open-ended such statements are.


> From Sasuke's profile in Databook 1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> > "Naruto is able to lighten Sasuke's heart, filled with dark feelings. One day will he be able to pacify it completely!?"



Naruto isn't his foreshadowed savior and constantly mentioned bond for nothing. And that esp goes for the brotherly theme since it's been denied and been given such ambiguity [imo].



> Chapter 60 - This takes place after the CS battle, which I think heightened Sasuke's respect for Sakura (although he was always there to protect her in battle, he didn't approve of her lack of skills in battle - see Chapter 46) after she did help fight the Sound.  Anyway, he had wanted to continue fishing and giving Naruto a hard time, but quickly dropped it at Sakura's request.



That isn't even evidence. Sasuke stopped Naruto from fishing cos the latter challenged him to come inside the water in his place  he used Sakura's excuse not to. Honestly, you can't expect me to even take that in consideration at all. Just proves to me once again how the Naruto/Sasuke interaction is lively and intriguing.



> Chapter 66 - I know Sasuke often gets the credit for being "mean", but this is more a result of what he believes he must do than who he really is.  While yes, the conversation isn't sunshine and kitties, Sasuke does ponder her words.  Like back in Chapter 7 (and later Chapter 181(, he does offer some explanation to her.  He just can't let even Sakura (or Naruto, or Kakashi) stop him.  He does this with all three of them, but for some reason, *his bond with Sakura somehow is devalued because of said treatment*.  Plus, even though other may view this scene as negative, I still see the fact that Kishi has them have these conversations.  Sakura is standing up to him (out of concern), and Sasuke cedes some explanation.



It's not devalued as a bond if you don't try justifying Sasuke's "negative" treatment as some sort of positive motivation for her and what not. And so what if he offers some explanation to her? There is no reason to leave his worrisome teammate clueless so she can just bother him more. Howcome he tries to hide from Naruto just can't help it in the end? Yeah, in those emotionally intense moments where nothing exists except them and they can imply the mutual pain felt without the other.



> Scenes like this give me the impression of two people who are important to each other - *emotionally equals even* - but one is going down a dangerous path, and that's where the negativity comes from, not their relationship.



Good grief. I really think you and I shouldn't debate if it's going to go on like this. I really don't want to be harsh with you [cos honestly I can't help it when I see such faulty logic which I find not only lacks any worthy nuance in the manga, but is hardly credible with such "evidence". Having to counter such affirmations takes any pleasure I have in debating different point of views. I know almost every SasuSaku notion out there unfortunately, and though worded differently it somehow manages to bring forth the usual terms of inconsistancy and double standards, bringing me to simply lose respect for the pairing more and more. This is just my honest _opinion_ with consideration of your politeness and attempt of compromise.



> Chapter 138 - This comes after the speech where *Sasuke willingly and verbally acknowledges how much Team 7 has come to mean to him* - Sakura specifically included as Sasuke directs Naruto to rescue her no matter what while he throws his life away to give them a chance to escape.



And NARUTO? Also he did the EXACT same thing. How come his feelings aren't taken in consideration on such basis then? Oh yeah he doesn't matter when it comes to romance.
I esp don't see what it proves when it comes to SOLE importance. Last time I checked Sasuke was encouraging and entrusting faith in Naruto. And what about the panels right after?? Naruto is reminded of how Sasuke died for him and then how Sakura protected Sasuke and so forth. This is a Team 7 moment and not a silly pairing spree. Even so I still find the Naruto/Sasuke or Naruto/Sakura reaction more significant in that case. 



> Anyway, to further demonstrate that Sakura has become someone *of comfort* to him, look at his expression as he lays her down.



What does that have to do in relation to what you are trying to prove before!? And since when is pairing evidence based on highly questionable gazes!? That just screams random, and that's putting aside the fact I find it one of the worst SasuSaku supports ever [I've seen it used 1000's of times]. Sasuke had been preoccupied for Naruto during the entire preceding battle sequence, and he hopped away immediately after putting Sakura down leaving her to Pakkun, I mean ASAP. Do you know what Sakura being free from the sand entailed? It meant that Naruto had defeated Gaara, something that could have easily cost his life. His expression, bluntly, was due to the situation, unless you are openly admitting that's pairing speculation, which is ok, but not to be insinuated as fact. Sasuke even did the same sort of thing with Naruto a lot more clearly [...] 





> My goal is not to say that Sakura is more important to Sasuke than Naruto, but that they have their own unique bond that stands on its own, and they relate in a way that Sasuke and Naruto do not; *each bond in Team 7 is different.*



But not in the way you wish until considerable evidence or in an effective romantic way for SasuSaku that obliterates the others.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 15, 2009)

> Naruto has influenced Sasuke as a rival and brother-figure, but *Sakura has also softened his heart in a way he can find comfort from Sakura that he won't allow himself with Naruto because of their intense rivalry*.  Anyway, wish I had more time to further support this, but oh well, hopefully this will do.



Says who ?  You still can't prove or come close to supporting it with such evidence. Sasuke spilled everything to Naruto despite of their rivalry, and it's actually _evident_ though in many occasions subtle that their interaction permits them to have *anything* - from acting upfront to being in utter denial. They have the most stressed development. That's why Naruto is Sasuke's closest friend. That's why Naruto considers him his important person. The rivalry is OVERRATED. You don't stalk a guy like an ex-boyfriend if you have a complex that isn't easily overcome [which it was by Naruto mostly in the VotE]. Part 2 has been all about Naruto gaining the power to bring Sasuke back to him and protecting his important people and some are still going on about rivalry in that sense? Things go in a certain direction despite thematic excuses and Sai's picture book of two boys holding hands in the middle is just an example.



> But a credible translator on this forum agrees with me (of course, you have to trust that I'm not lying, so it makes it difficult to use this claim as a claim, but I am being honest for what it's worth).



Uh, where did I say there was something wrong with the platonic interpretation? The point is that NaruSaku ISN'T devoid of serious romantic elements, whether we like it or not. I know a good translator personally I can even name [Tora-chan] and she shares a lot of my views. Don't see what your point is when it's clear one needs to give coherent evidence for a stronger hold of such interpretation if you don't want the other person p-shawing. 



> Anyway, you may not have insulted me as a person, but basically you are calling my point of view uncredible even when I offer explanation and you have yet to show where it is invalid other than to say you think I am grasping at straws, and calling my use of character development an excuse.  Now if you can provide an adequate case where you demonstrate that the interpretation is illogical or somewhere contradicted - then I welcome you to call it invalid.  But until and unless you do, you are labeling my (and others') interpretation as invalid based solely on your own opinion.  And I do find that insulting.



So having a declared _opinion_ of the invalidity of arguements due to flaws one finds in them is offensive? Mmm... I'm simply blunt when it comes to these things if anyone knows my polemic style of debate. I don't think I've ever insulted you or fans personally for having related ideas. You've basically given me no personally convincing analysis so far [even if you may have one] and you want to presume my attitude is insulting? Also I come from somewhere. I'd find it extremely obnoxious more than I already do if I were a NaruSaku fan how confidently their pairing is brushed off no matter what evidence they can provide, even if the same sort of evidence is utlilized and sublimed by its main rival fandoms [in general]. There's even someone whose username humiliates the pairing using the _red herring_ notion.
It has gotten ridiculous, and that's just my opinion as an Anti-NaruSaku fan by all means >.>
Despite whoever agrees with such interpretation this is a debate thread. Blatant nitpicking or double standards is something I will always denounce if I have that impression, whatever pairing it is.
How should I feel as a SasuNaru fan seeing how such flimsy evidence is enough to support and "validate" said pairings while the one of my own is NEVER enough? It's pretty mortifying honestly, on many levels.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 15, 2009)

angstyteenmuffin said:


> You obviously took Sasuke's leaving to lightly. True, he knocked her out, but to make sure she wouldnt scream or follow him. He didn't knock her out because he felt like being a jerk.



i didn't said he wanted to act like a jerk, what i meant was that she wasn't that important to him even after she said she loves him he didn't wanted to stay.





angstyteenmuffin said:


> your working on pure assumption


if i remember right these all are pure assumptions -.- 





angstyteenmuffin said:


> he said he understood why he _liked_ her, not loved her. Secondly, Naruto really wanted acceptance from everyone,which includes Sakura, and that is what Sakura wanted from Sasuke.
> Not to mention I dont take Naruto's feelings for her very seriously at the start of the manga.


exactly! i just wanted to show that narusaku relationship does develop. even if it is because of sasuke. it is true that nausaku became closer because sasuke left. hey it's his loss  this is kinda a regular story: girl likes a boy, boy leaves, another boy does everything he can for her to bring her back her "beloved", girl falls in love with him and they go into the sunshine or something -.-
do you read fairytales?! 



angstyteenmuffin said:


> She only decides to do this because of Sasuke


no she only decides to do that because now she knows how it feels to be ignored. i said narusaku takes time.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 15, 2009)

LuvDaAlchemist said:


> alikeness=/= romantic. It is a start, though. But this scene is more of a parallel of Sakura's hate for Naruto and Naruto's love/like/crush/whatever for Sakura. Good try, though.


hey i did not said that in this scene it shows how much they like eachother, i said how much alike they are. and this scene shows that naruto DOES like her. i hate when some naruhina fans say that we DON'T have a proof that naruto likes sakura -.-




LuvDaAlchemist said:


> ...And disguises himself as her crush as he says it and thinks of manipulating her through trying to make her hate Sasuke (Pg.19; "[Naruto] could make Sakura hate Sasuke..." background sound effects, "Heh-heh-heh-heh," as he finishes with, "...that could work." Very romantic and good for a basis of a relationship? Once again, no, but good try.


again, that wasn't my point. and then they were only 12/13 so explain what kind of relationship could they begin (never mind sasusaku and her crazy wishes, girls get more mature before boys )



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> In the *official* translated Naruto volume 1, it says, "... What [Naruto] love *about* [Sakura!]." This is a single attribute and not a whole. What I love about my best friend is for her ability to make me laugh, but I don't love her romantically.
> 
> (I use VIZ translations due to them not being bias. Translators tend to add things or change context due to pairing bias. This has happened before in the Naruto series, so you shouldn't place random translators so high on pedestals.)
> 
> Once again, good try.



yea well if you try to kiss your friend after you say that, you DO love her romantically -.-



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> ...Because Sasuke told her that what she said made him sick. If he had said nothing she would not think to treat him nicer. Besides, treating nicer =/= love/romatic feelings.


hey they are D E V E L O P I N G! that's a good start . remember from what they started 



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> So, overall, many of these, "moments", are based on misconceptions of context as a whole. Bring something else and I will be happy to go through this again (or if you have a rebuttal to my statements, that is fine too.)[/COLOR]


I will bring more hehe


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## Black Flicka (Apr 15, 2009)

this link shows us that sakura get out of her hiding place to warn naruto. i do know that she would do that for sasuke, but this proves she would do it for naruto too...

she feels sorry for naruto. now you can haha what a relationship, but i think that this shows us that how much they got from that: moron move it! i wanna sit on the other side of you. now she cares and she is worried!

she blushed here, and it wasn't because of sasuke!
Link
sakura is suprised and impressed by naruto, blushing again  of course naruto will ruin that soon, don't worry :'(

here following sasuke's example she offers naruto food. my point is that naruto is touched by that and ANOTHER proof that he likes sakura! he wasn't touched by sasuke's act -.-
Link
sakura! SAKURA suggests they get back to village to help naruto. worried again, even though if they finish this mission they would probably get better ones but she is unselfish and tries to make the group to help naruto! selflessnes is the main characteristic of narusaku relationship and it's clear visible here.

now let me see your theories


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## LDA (Apr 15, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Sorry, but I looked and I don't see it.  Maybe he is jealous, but I don't see any pannels indicating that.


Next page. Sorry I wasn't specific ^^;



> He _was_ the class clown, so it doesn't surprise me.  He did fail epically, so Sakura _might_ not be to mad, if she finds out.


Sakura wouldn't punch Naruto's lights out for trying to kiss her and trying to make her hate her crush? Sakura, of all people? She's quite tempermental, even before the timeskip. Heck, even people who aren't tempermental would probably knock him out for that. For Naruto to do that, even if he is the class clown, is not something she will just wave off. Or any girl for that matter.




> Some languages have more than one word for love.  Is Japanese one of those languages?  That might help settle this.



Yes, japanese is one of those languages. They are very specific about how they say "love" in context (Not just the word for love, but the entire sentence structure). However, I am not the expert or a very good source. Peraps if someone comes in with good japanese knowledge of language and culture (<--The culture part is a big part in finding the context of how the "love" is used) they can helps us out. 

But the "about" context sets it off. Not saying Naruto doesn't have feelings for her, but it is a crush here.




> I knew Sasuke was good for something.



Yeah, Sasuke was great for helping Sakura develop and mature  I'm glad we agree.




> Ah, I did forget that.  But the actual context is:
> 
> Naruto: I was just devising a plan for the two of us to go on a walk, almost like a date!
> Sakura: If you have the time to do that, then you should go study ninjutsu or something!
> ...



In the VIZ translations, it says:

Naruto: But... I thought it was just gonna be the two of us, Sakura! Y'know, like a _date_!
Sakura: If I had that much free time, I'd study more ninjutsu!
Naruto: ...Study, Study, Study! Is that all you do?
Sakura: I believe in training my brain... Not just my body. You should try it sometime... Because you really need it! You *Fool*.
Naruto: ... Sakura! Don't Say that!

She wasn't harsh in the beginning, but she turned harsh at the end. She seems amused for the first half, but when she starts calling him a fool you can't see her expression. She could still have the same expression, but it is all speculation towards the end.

Yes, Sasuke told her the same thing. I'm glad you pointed that out! Because if you recall correctly, Sakura stopped asking Sasuke on dates. Instead, she tried to better herself (This is marked when she cuts off her hair to protect her comrades) and took his advice. But Naruto has not. Naruto hasn't taken her advice to study and strengthen his mind and has mentioned a date in the comedic fashion since that point.





> I hope Naruto told Jiraiya that he got out of a date because of all the money the old perv took.



lol, that would have been funny 



> Yeah, I understand that now.  Sorry I misunderstood.



That's okay. We all make mistakes now and then. I should have worded it better and made it more specfic, so it's my fault.




> Maybe she was mad that he couldn't tell from her tone that it was a business call.  Maybe that coupled with him eating junk and sleeping in.  I'm not sure how else to explain it.  But your point is valid.



Yeah, that's what I hate when arguing with NaruSaku- she is completely and utterly amiguous from both sides of the debate. Some will see her actions romantic while others see platonic.  In Part I she was a lot easier to read.




> Glad to see you're big enough to admit that.  I'll admit the NaruHina momments.  In fact, I like them.  But one NaruHina momment doesn't make the pairing canon.  We'll see what Naruto does about his interesting situation in time.



Yeah, I hate people who scream from rooftops through one moment that the pairing is canon. I hate how some NH fans are saying it is absoltuely canon after 437 (It raises its chances but there's still a little something called Naruto's verbal reaction) and I hate how some NS fans claim it is absolutely canon after 297 (which is, again, debatable; but it has been debated so much I don't see the point in it anymore )

We'll see in due time (assuming Kishi ends the madness that is pairing wars).





> Agreed.  There are wierdos in both branches.  Maybe my disbelieve in soul-mates has made me supportive of NaruSaku.



 They pop up a lot. Too much, really  Oh, and I don't believe in soul mates either. I believe love is a series of chemical reactions- but that's in real life. In manga or writing, the author can screw you over and put two people that have never talked to each other in canon together. It can happen- we just have to hope and believe that Kishi won't screw us over _too_ badly.

*My stuff to Black Flicka shall come soon.*


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## Tenrol (Apr 15, 2009)

LuvDaAlchemist said:


> Next page. Sorry I wasn't specific ^^;



I don't see jealousy there and if he was so in lub with her then why did he slapped her apples she did kindly for him? Wait because he loves her right?



> Yeah, Sasuke was great for helping Sakura develop and mature  I'm glad we agree.



Yeah she matured great when he left. Better than he was there with her in Konoha.



> Instead, she tried to better herself (This is marked when she cuts off her hair to protect her comrades) and took his advice. But Naruto has not. Naruto hasn't taken her advice to study and strengthen his mind and has mentioned a date in the comedic fashion since that point.




No she didn't change herself at all after that. When she cut her hair and all because she was getting tired getting protected by Sasuke, Naruto  and lee of course.


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## LDA (Apr 15, 2009)

*To Black Flicka:*



> hey i did not said that in this scene it shows how much they like eachother, i said how much alike they are. and this scene shows that naruto DOES like her. i hate when some naruhina fans say that we DON'T have a proof that naruto likes sakura -.-



I never said that Naruto doesn?t like Sakura. Please do not generalize. I can see he has somewhat of a crush at that point; he calls her a babe 





> again, that wasn't my point. and then they were only 12/13 so explain what kind of relationship could they begin (never mind sasusaku and her crazy wishes, girls get more mature before boys )



But that _was_ your point. You said that NaruSaku does develop (Using the word NaruSaku gives it a romantic connotation). At twelve and thirteen you can start a relationship. A good one, though, depends on maturity levels. How much someone can handle. It?s just as debatable as, ?What makes a person an adult?? Being the legal age of your country or through life experience and how you understand the world?

But that?s more philosophical.




> yea well if you try to kiss your friend after you say that, you DO love her romantically -.-



No, you could just want to get in their pants. That?s not loving a person romantically. Of course, Naruto isn?t like this (for the most part, anyway ), but wanting a kiss from someone does not mean you love them romantically. Crush.




> hey they are D E V E L O P I N G! that's a good start . remember from what they started



It?s not a great start, but it is a start. 




> 40,000 tons worth of gravity
> this link shows us that sakura get out of her hiding place to warn naruto. i do know that she would do that for sasuke, but this proves she would do it for naruto too...



I?m glad Sakura didn?t want Naruto to be killed (as she had said, ?Naruto---!!! Get out of there!!! [Naruto]?ll be killed!? When she saw Kakashi had made the seal of the tiger). Sasuke sure wasn?t going to warn him at that point. 

Yes, she did it for Sasuke- well, she actually completely left her hiding spot to find Sasuke while for Naruto she just yelled and warned him. But It shows that she cares for Naruto?s well being- but no context of it is romantic.

Budding friendship =/= romantic love



> 40,000 tons worth of gravity
> she feels sorry for naruto. now you can haha what a relationship, but i think that this shows us that how much they got from that: moron move it! i wanna sit on the other side of you. now she cares and she is worried!



Using VIZ translations, Sakura say, ?And [Kakashi]?s still chuckling over his book? [Kakashi]?s just playing with Naruto.? She?s not really worried for Naruto?s  well being as much as Kakashi?s strength.



> 40,000 tons worth of gravity
> she blushed here, and it wasn't because of sasuke!



Blushing?? Lol. Even Sasuke was blushing in that scene.  

Besides, Sasuke blushed at Kakashi but that isn?t romantic. Naruto blushed at Gaara for nearly a page and a half but that isn?t romantic. There?s more than one type of blush. In this case- admiration. 



> how many times do you masturbate?
> sakura is suprised and impressed by naruto, blushing again  of course naruto will ruin that soon, don't worry :'(



Same as above.



> 40,000 tons worth of gravity
> here following sasuke's example she offers naruto food. my point is that naruto is touched by that and ANOTHER proof that he likes sakura! he wasn't touched by sasuke's act -.-



I never said Naruto didn?t give a crap about Sakura -_- And Naruto blushes at Sasuke just before that when Sasuke offers his food first. 

And Naruto is touched(emotionally) by a lot of things. His entire drive about helping people is because they have touched him emotionally.



> how many times do you masturbate?
> sakura! SAKURA suggests they get back to village to help naruto. worried again, even though if they finish this mission they would probably get better ones but she is unselfish and tries to make the group to help naruto! selflessnes is the main characteristic of narusaku relationship and it's clear visible here.



She?s also talking about quitting the mission right before. Treating Naruto?s wounds is a viable option considering he is infected by poison and is about to die (of course, he has the fox to heal him but only Kakashi knows at this point). And this angers Naruto. Greatly.




> now let me see your theories



Let me see your rebuttal, now. 


*Tenrol:*



> I don't see jealousy there and if he was so in lub with her then why did he slapped her apples she did kindly for him? Wait because he loves her right?



Then clarify what you do see so we can debate on it. 

I never said Sasuke was in love with her. Please do not make assumptions on things that are not specifically stated. Just because I parallel it with other situations does not mean I think it is absolutely canon. Because no pairings in the Big three are canon because they are all one-sided (hence why they are not canon). I do not believe Sasuke is in love with Sakura at this point in the manga. Get the facts right before you assume.

To answer your question, he knocked the apple out of her hand because he was casting away all of his Konoha ties because of his inferiority complex + temptation to power.





> Yeah she matured great when he left. Better than he was there with her in Konoha.



So you're saying that Sakura made absolutely no development in maturity after Forest of Death? And of course she matured when he left- there has been three years in between Sasuke's departure and the current manga.





> No she didn't change herself at all after that. When she cut her hair and all because she was getting tired getting protected by Sasuke, Naruto and lee of course.



You just contradicted yourself. She never stood up for herself before that point and would merely cling to others for strength. At that point she decided to protect her comrades, so that they can, "watch [her] back," instead. How is that not changing herself?


----------



## Tenrol (Apr 15, 2009)

LuvDaAlchemist said:


> *Tenrol:*
> 
> 
> 
> Then clarify what you do see so we can debate on it.


 
Funny i only heard this from SS fan



> I never said Sasuke was in love with her. Please do not make assumptions on things that are not specifically stated. Just because I parallel it with other situations does not mean I think it is absolutely canon. Because no pairings in the Big three are canon because they are all one-sided (hence why they are not canon). I do not believe Sasuke is in love with Sakura at this point in the manga. Get the facts right before you assume.




Well saying Sasuke that was jealous yeah i'd obviously assume you're saying that he was in loves with her.



> To answer your question, he knocked the apple out of her hand because he was casting away all of his Konoha ties because of his inferiority complex + temptation to power.




So he need to slap her apples because he was feeling inferior? I'm feeling inferior to one of my friend in video games i guess ill go destroy his tv 







> So you're saying that Sakura made absolutely no development in maturity after Forest of Death? And of course she matured when he left- there has been three years in between Sasuke's departure and the current manga.




She did but surely not because Sasuke told her to learn some ninjutsu.




> You just contradicted yourself. She never stood up for herself before that point and would merely cling to others for strength. At that point she decided to protect her comrades, so that they can, "watch [her] back," instead. How is that not changing herself?[/COLOR]




What i mean is she wanted to something else than her always getting protected you know.


----------



## LDA (Apr 15, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Funny i only heard this from SS fan



And I heard from an NS fan that sakura loves Naruto. But that doesn't mean I believe all think the same thing. That is generalizing and generalizing is a fallacy.






> Well saying Sasuke that was jealous yeah i'd obviously assume you're saying that he was in loves with her.



Jealousy =/= love. It refers, once again, to sasuke's inferiority complex. Naruto has been progressing at a rapid pace and now the girl who used to treat Naruto as a pest is happy with him. Seeing such a change is bound to mess up someone, such as Sasuke, who has such a drive to kill someone and is suddenly falling behind. 





> So he need to slap her apples because he was feeling inferior? I'm feeling inferior to one of my friend in video games i guess ill go destroy his tv



It is a culmination of events. After so many things happened, he's snapping. He also tries to a chidori through Naruto several times and even entertains the thought of killing him.

Sasuke is messed up mentally. He was starting to crack. 






> She did but surely not because Sasuke told her to learn some ninjutsu.



I never said it was a direct comparison; once again this is a culmination of events. Sakura saw that she needed to better herself (Sasuke voiced this and she saw through her teammates protecting her even though she was unable to protect herself) and so she did.






> What i mean is she wanted to something else than her always getting protected you know.



That's exactly my point. What did you have a problem with earlier with what I typed?


----------



## Black Flicka (Apr 15, 2009)

geez you shure give me a headache 



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> No, you could just want to get in their pants. That’s not loving a person romantically. Of course, Naruto isn’t like this (for the most part, anyway ), but wanting a kiss from someone does not mean you love them romantically. Crush.


i think that this is just a difference of opinions, someone will say its romantical (that is Narusaku fans will say that) and someone won't. you can discuss this a lot....



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> I’m glad Sakura didn’t want Naruto to be killed (as she had said, “Naruto---!!! Get out of there!!! [Naruto]’ll be killed!” When she saw Kakashi had made the seal of the tiger). Sasuke sure wasn’t going to warn him at that point.
> 
> Yes, she did it for Sasuke- well, she actually completely left her hiding spot to find Sasuke while for Naruto she just yelled and warned him. But It shows that she cares for Naruto’s well being- but no context of it is romantic.
> 
> Budding friendship =/= romantic love


from the thing that she "dislikes" to a buddy is a great progress if you ask me. but i don't see any romantical develop between narusaku till' shippuden. i just show you developing between them that will make their bond stronger and get them to the point they are now.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> [Besides, Sasuke blushed at Kakashi but that isn’t romantic. Naruto blushed at Gaara for nearly a page and a half but that isn’t romantic. There’s more than one type of blush. In this case- admiration. [/COLOR]


you can discuss this.... again difference of opinions....



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> [I never said Naruto didn’t give a crap about Sakura -_- And Naruto blushes at Sasuke just before that when Sasuke offers his food first.
> 
> And Naruto is touched(emotionally) by a lot of things. His entire drive about helping people is because they have touched him emotionally.


and he does that for sakura too. but with every person he has a different kind of bond you can say. like sasuke is more of a brother to him, you can't say that for sakura (now). kiba is his *buddy*. you can't say the same for sakura... -.- they have a stronger bond.





LuvDaAlchemist said:


> She’s also talking about quitting the mission right before. Treating Naruto’s wounds is a viable option considering he is infected by poison and is about to die (of course, he has the fox to heal him but only Kakashi knows at this point). And this angers Naruto. Greatly.


hey i juts said here that she worries 

and don't worry i'll give you more to think over


----------



## Tenrol (Apr 15, 2009)

LuvDaAlchemist said:


> And I heard from an NS fan that sakura loves Naruto. But that doesn't mean I believe all think the same thing. That is generalizing and generalizing is a fallacy.


Well there's a reason to.



> Jealousy =/= love. It refers, once again, to sasuke's inferiority complex. Naruto has been progressing at a rapid pace and now the girl who used to treat Naruto as a pest is happy with him. Seeing such a change is bound to mess up someone, such as Sasuke, who has such a drive to kill someone and is suddenly falling behind.




Well good to know that you're confirming that he doesn't have any hiding feelings for her. that's all i wanted to know.



> It is a culmination of events. After so many things happened, he's snapping. He also tries to a chidori through Naruto several times and even entertains the thought of killing him.
> 
> Sasuke is messed up mentally. He was starting to crack.



I don't even need to respond to this since you confirmed that he doesn't have any hiding feelings for her.







> I never said it was a direct comparison; once again this is a culmination of events. Sakura saw that she needed to better herself (Sasuke voiced this and she saw through her teammates protecting her even though she was unable to protect herself) and so she did.



Unless you're giving a panel where's Sakura is flashbacking a panel where's Sakura herself is saying something *Sasuke was right* or something like that. then no i don't believe you.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 15, 2009)

40,000 tons worth of gravity
so when danger came sakura's 1st reaction is to push naruto down. it's how we narusaku fans see it. you can discuss that she fell or that sasuke wasn't close enough to her.... idk but pushing naruto down 1st is one of the options too
Link removed
*suprised*, blushing. well at least we don't see sasuke here blushing... -.-
Link removed
*a sudden realization*
40,000 tons worth of gravity
*a sudden feeling* well that's how i see it, no sasuke blushing -.-
Link removed
hehe trying to get a little "peek" together. again it shows us how much alike they rlly are.
Link removed
sakura is slowly starting to acknowledge naruto
Link removed
naruto cheering for sakura. too bad she is busy thinking about sasuke -.-
40,000 tons worth of gravity
sakura is thinking that naruto is about to give up, but he comes to look for her advice. surprise!
Link removed
sakura is impressed by naruto's improvement

here i tried to show that naruto can impress sakura and impression is kinda on what is sakura's love for sasuke based. his looks, coolness and impression
even though naruto mess it up almost always he can make an impession on sakura

enjoy 
and wow sakura is shining up like a sun hehe xD
40,000 tons worth of gravity
"Naruto too" eh? It seems like sakura changed her mind about naruto's skills...
40,000 tons worth of gravity
sakura is relieved to see naruto safe and sound
Link removed


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 15, 2009)

Hikui said:


> No offense taken, but you're kidding me, right? Red Herrings can be used anywhere in the narrative. I said the it could be applied, not that the red herrings are always romantic.
> 
> And I know JKR used red herrings for her plot (hell, I know HP like the back of my hand) but what I wanted to convey was that she also used red herrings for the romance. (And I think she stated so herself in an interview). Even when she never intended for people to take it seriously.
> 
> I'm not illiterate, I know what I'm talking about.



Nobody is saying you're illiterate.  

And no, you can't arbitarily throw in Red Herrings in Narratives without a set purpose.

As for Rowlings, do point out where she used Red Herring for romance.  Frankly, outside of Ron and Herimone, romance wasn't really at the forefront of the novels.



Hikui said:


> This is probably what you're referring to. See the bold part? Yes, it meas it is not only used for solving mysteries. And just so you know, the first and oldest definition of red herring has nothing to do with literature or plot but on logic arguments.
> 
> Here:
> 
> ...



You quoted from Wikipedia......  



Hikui said:


> How are they foreshadows? I don't get your logic....



Come now, it's pretty obvious when it comes to mangas. 



Hikui said:


> The term Red Herring can be used for all kinds of arguments Tyrannos, as I pointed out above. That said, I'm not much of a Star Wars fan but as far as I know there were lots of people that believed Luke/Leia was cannon after the 5th (was it really the 5th?) movie was out.  But they turned out to be siblings  So, Luke/Leia diverted attention from the real pairing Han/Leia. So yeah, the term can be applied.
> 
> As for knowing Ron/Hermione was going to happen then good for you. But lots of very educated people would strongly disagree with you (I don't mean me). And just so you know, Rowling did some faulty job in the romance department.



See there you go again, you're basing decisions based on heresay and second-hand information.

And your saying "well it's Red Herring because it distracted", when it's not the case.   You _assume_ it was distracting because you had the illusion of a love triangle. 

"Well Luke had feelings for Leia".........

You know what, that sounds exactly what people are doing with NaruHina.  "Well Hinata has feelings for Naruto, therefore they are meant for one another."  (And yes, the same can be said for NaruSaku and SasuSaku as well).

And frankly, I couldn't give a damn about "very educated" peoples opinion.  Because _all_ pairings are people's opinion.



Hikui said:


> That said, don't you think the H/Hr dynamic resembles N/S? Funny...



No, I don't.   For that to be true, Harry would've had romantic feelings for Herimone.  And best I recall, there was none.




Hikui said:


> In the plot scenario, you're right.
> 
> When used in romance they're double edged swords when say most of your audience "ships" for the other pairing. Even when you try to make it out interesting and know that there might be a pairing war (and might lose fans), if the majority of your readers root for the "wrong" relationship it means you failed to demonstrate the nature and the reason why the "original" is the best fit. Most of the time. So yeah, Kishimoto is awkward at romance.



No, they don't.  I guarantee you that 99% of storytellers out there aren't sitting in thought going, "Okay I need to put this girl in to distract from the real one".

And they definitely aren't concerned over pairings when writing out the plot.

It's their story, and they aren't going throw their long-developed plot, solely to appease the majority of the fanbase, because they like such and such pairing. 



Hikui said:


> I mentioned Dragonball because the romance was dealt with "early" on the series not because it has a red herring.



Eh, there really wasn't any romance in the Dragonball Manga.  

You assumed it is because of Goku and Chichi getting together.   But in reality Goku was totally clueless to Chichi's actions, even up until he got married.   The only time we saw anything close to romance was when those to got it on, which resulted in Goten.  



Hikui said:


> That said, action series ≠ no red herring.
> 
> Btw, Chichi wasn't a plot but a plot device. It might have no relevance for you but most of the characters if not all the characters are plot devices for the main character's growth.



I never said there was no red herring in action, I said there isn't red herring when it comes to romance in action manga.   

And Chichi isn't really a plot device, because her importance was only for the procreation of the children.   Plot devices are long-term.

In _Dragonball_, the Dragonballs themselves are the plot device.

In _Naruto_, the Kyuubi is the plot device.



Hikui said:


> Agreed, even when I don't really get your point.
> Is this supposed to be a pro-Narusaku argument? a pro-Naruto can't get over Sakura argument? I don't get the relevance.
> 
> To end this argument, my original idea was only to show you that red herrings can be applied to romance, and that NaruSaku might be one.
> ...



Well we strayed from the original Red Herring arguement which was intitially designed as very Anti-NaruSaku, and some still use that today. 

So in a way yes, my arguement is very Pro-NaruSaku because Red Herrings can't be stablished until other scenarios are brought forth.   So NaruSaku can't be the Red Herring for NaruHina, because NaruHina wasn't introduced until 30+ Chapters later, when Hinata's feelings were known. And NaruSaku can't be the Red Herring for SasuSaku, because Sakura's confession would've negated the any NaruSaku Red Herring.  


Though it seems you are starting to see my viewpoint that with Kishimoto being so inexperienced with romance, putting in a Pairing Red Herring would be too much for him.  So all he does is just simply bring moments to light that has us question "who will it be?"  One day it will be NaruSaku, the next be NaruHina, then he will bring out SasuSaku.   He keeps us on our toes until that final resolution of the definitive winner.


----------



## LDA (Apr 15, 2009)

*To Black Flicka:*



> geez you shure give me a headache



lol, sorry. I don't mean to ^^;




> i think that this is just a difference of opinions, someone will say its romantical (that is Narusaku fans will say that) and someone won't. you can discuss this a lot....



Yeah; I wish Kishi would end the madness already. His ambiguity irritates me.




> from the thing that she "dislikes" to a buddy is a great progress if you ask me. but i don't see any romantical develop between narusaku till' shippuden. i just show you developing between them that will make their bond stronger and get them to the point they are now.



Yes, it is great progress. They are becoming friends. That's how I see it.




> you can discuss this.... again difference of opinions....


True 




> and he does that for sakura too. but with every person he has a different kind of bond you can say. like sasuke is more of a brother to him, you can't say that for sakura (now). kiba is his *buddy*. you can't say the same for sakura... -.- they have a stronger bond.



Yes, Naruto has a different bond with everyone. But may I ask, why _can't _you say Sakura has a friendship bond with Naruto?






> hey i juts said here that she worries



This I agree with whole-heartily.



> 442
> so when danger came sakura's 1st reaction is to push naruto down. it's how we narusaku fans see it. you can discuss that she fell or that sasuke wasn't close enough to her.... idk but pushing naruto down 1st is one of the options too



I agree that she pushed Naruto down to save him (I'm glad she did otherwise we would have two Naruto's on our hands!).



> 2007 Nitro+CHiRAL Calendar
> suprised, blushing. well at least we don't see sasuke here blushing... -.-



Yeah, Sasuke just has a confused expression. But she is surprised Naruto is getting back up on his feet after being knocked back pretty far.



> 2007 Nitro+CHiRAL Calendar
> a sudden realization



Yes, she realizes he went for his headband instead of stupidly charging.



> 442
> a sudden feeling well that's how i see it, no sasuke blushing -.-



See, this is where I hate Kishimoto. He just can never finish sentences. I think she's about to say, "cool," but everyone else probably has a different adjective. And, yes, Sasuke is not blushing just like you said. He is fairly amused- a smirk on his face. 



> 2007 Nitro+CHiRAL Calendar
> hehe trying to get a little "peek" together. again it shows us how much alike they rlly are.



Alikeness =/= romantic feelings, but alikeness = friendship.



> 2007 Nitro+CHiRAL Calendar
> sakura is slowly starting to acknowledge Naruto



Yes, she is starting to acknowledge him. Good friendship basis.



> 2007 Nitro+CHiRAL Calendar
> naruto cheering for sakura. too bad she is busy thinking about sasuke -.-



Yeah, he cheers for her despite that fact that, “…It does kind of tick [Naruto] off!” And she goes gloomy since Sasuke isn’t the one who is cheering.



> Link removed
> sakura is thinking that naruto is about to give up, but he comes to look for her advice. surprise!



Yes, it is a surprise that he is asking for help. But not surprising that he asks the person who actually finished the exercise and knows what she is doing.


> 2007 Nitro+CHiRAL Calendar
> sakura is impressed by naruto's improvement
> 
> here i tried to show that naruto can impress sakura and impression is kinda on what is sakura's love for sasuke based. his looks, coolness and impression
> ...



Yes, she is impressed.

And she shines even more when Sasuke is at the top and says, “Yessss! Sasuke saves the Day!! He gives me shivers!!!”


> Link removed
> "Naruto too" eh? It seems like sakura changed her mind about naruto's skills...



She just says, “Naruto!” No indication that she changed her mind *here*. He appeared out of nowhere and she looks happy that he is about to help them out.



> Link removed
> sakura is relieved to see naruto safe and sound



She mentions him as an afterthought and doesn’t know that he is okay. She just believes in her *teammates*.


> 2007 Nitro+CHiRAL Calendar



Yes, she’s relieved, at the moment, that he is not dead.


*To Tenrol:* 



> Well there's a reason to.


A reason to what?





> Well good to know that you're confirming that he doesn't have any hiding feelings for her. that's all i wanted to know.



I never said that. Those just aren't moments. If you want me to clarify on how I think he does feel something for her (Although it may not be romantic love), then please ask away 




> Unless you're giving a panel where's Sakura is flashbacking a panel where's Sakura herself is saying something *Sasuke was right* or something like that. then no i don't believe you.



That's fine- you don't have to have the same beliefs that I do. Diversity, ne?


----------



## Renxx (Apr 15, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Dude, don't _ever_ trust the databooks.  They're total crap!


I didn't use only the databook, now did I? 
Thought so.
And I'm not a dude.



Forlong said:


> I think you missed the _only_ time in part 2 that he asked her out.  She said "okay".  Did that get mistraslated when you read it?



I just _knew_ someone was gonna point it out. I didn't say anything on that, because I think it was pretty clear on why she accepted. If you don't remember, go back and check her _expression_. Do you see someone happy for being able to realize her life-long dream? Or do you see someone desperate for food and has no other way than to get it through Naruto right there? oh and before you bring it up: The part in the anime where Sakura goes to eat alone after that and regrets on not going on a date with him? Filler. Not valid.



Forlong said:


> Last time I checked, love isn't dictated by ballance between your opposit sex friends.



Do you seriously think Naruto and Sakura are bringing him back just so he could get put into a corner and watch them cuddle? How sweet. If you think like that, can you point out who else is waiting for Sasuke in Konoha?... You obviously can't since there is no one else but Naruto and Sakura who truly want him back. So, do you think he would come back for that?



Forlong said:


> Do you know how much of the anime has to get Kishimoto's okay, before it's made?  I don't think so.  I'm sure he's told them a few key detales that are important, but we can't be sure yet how valid those are.



Exactly. _Key _details. Romance is not one of them, otherwise Kishimoto would have made it very clear in the manga that he's a NaruSaku fan when he's had many chances to.

(might as well reply to the rest of you post)



Forlong said:


> Er...WHAT!?   You're saying Naruto doesn't _like_-like Sakura?  Naruto made a lifelong promise to her.  And to do what?  Bring back the guy she likes so she can be happy and lower his chances of having her.  I don't know where you learned about love; but, if you don't think that's love, I'd say you missed a few critical leasons.



Try and and describe a narusaku "moment" in part 2 that hasn't turned into a comedic one. Don't use the Sai unfinished line with the mistranslation, because it makes no sense: "Sakura you're really gentle with Naruto aren't you?" *6 pages later* Sakura to Naruto: "_Idiot_! That's why we're able to get so close!" Change the gentle to understanding of Naruto's feelings and it changes everything, and, say, it actually makes sense within the context! 
And still using the promise as evidence?... I don't see the NaruSaku in that. Maybe it's my biased view, but let's see: Naruto recognizes Sakura really likes Sasuke and makes a promise of a *lifetime* to bring back the guy Sakura *loves*. Hm. So there wouldn't be a promise of a *lifetime* if Sakura didn't *love* Sasuke, right? You, as the NaruSaku fan you are, saw the selfless thing he did. Thing is, though, his influence to bring Sasuke back doesn't come mainly from Sakura. Want proof? Alright:Questions to ask (and Avoid) on a first date He could have said "He's loved by a close friend of mine" or something like that (or what he said _and _that). Promise or no promise, he's more focused on bringing Sasuke back because he's like a brother to him, not because Sakura loves him.



Forlong said:


> I agree.  I like NaruHina.  It's cute, and could work under the right cercomstances.  But most NaruHina shippers act like they're soul-mates, and nothing can stop them from loving each other.  I don't believe in soul-mates.  I believe a relationship works because you _make_ it work.



Umm... stereotyping much?
And what circumstances would those be? Naruto has been oblivious to Hinata's feelings. But haven't you noticed how they have developped? From a "dark shy weirdo" to "someone I really like/you're the kind I like/whatever" (it all leads to the same thing). Their development stopped there because: 1. He's oblivious to her feelings. Now he isn't. 2. She was too shy to say it. She isn't now. 3. They didn't spend enough time together, nor had the time to. Maybe they will now, I don't believe Naruto would turn down Hinata without even giving her chance, since he has shown that he could.



Forlong said:


> I support NaruSaku more because it makes more sense.  Naruto spends all his time with Sakura.  Could he spend that it with Hinata?  Yeah, but what's the motivation?  She loves him, so suddenly he's got to drop everything for her?  I've noticed most NaruHina shippers are _female_.  That explains that belief.



So, you support NaruSaku because... they share panel time. They _never _spend time alone with each other. In part 1 they were with Sasuke. In part 2 with Sai, Kakashi. But never alone.
And what's _everything_ exactly? Couldn't he hang out with both Hinata and Sakura,Sai, Kakashi? Just because you have a girlfriend, doesn't mean you have to spend all your days with her.
And I've noticed a lot of NaruSaku fans are _male. _Wonder why's that..




Forlong said:


> Yeah, I was hoping for a NaruHina scene back in the "Search For Sasuke".  But do we get that?  Nope.



Of course, if you take out all the Hina parts where she worries about Naruto quite a lot, that were interpreted by some people as "She totally doesn't have confidence in Naruto". And I'm sure in her perspective she knew it wasn't exactly the right time to confess to Naruto..



Forlong said:


> Exactly why I'm more supportive of NaruSaku.  Also because so many NaruHina shippers are blind Sakura-bashers.



I'm not.


----------



## Black Flicka (Apr 15, 2009)

LuvDaAlchemist said:


> Yes, Naruto has a different bond with everyone. But may I ask, why _can't _you say Sakura has a friendship bond with Naruto?


probably because i cheer for narusaku 
we don't cheer on our favourite couples because we think the coulors match 
-.- we just see some romantic moments in some different situations that makes us think wow these 2 are great together



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> Alikeness =/= romantic feelings, but alikeness = friendship.


yea well for some people alikeness makes relationship stronger and better. it doesn't need to mean friendhsip. alikenessnes sometimes leads to romantic feelings....



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> She just says, “Naruto!” No indication that she changed her mind *here*. He appeared out of nowhere and she looks happy that he is about to help them out.
> 
> She mentions him as an afterthought and doesn’t know that he is okay. She just believes in her *teammates*.


yea that's kinda my fault.... i mixed links....


----------



## LDA (Apr 15, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> probably because i cheer for narusaku
> we don't cheer on our favourite couples because we think the coulors match
> -.- we just see some romantic moments in some different situations that makes us think wow these 2 are great together



lol, color scheme  But I believe there are sane fans on all sides and tards that make up most of each pairing fandom. They believe weird crap about our favorite pairing and make the rest of the fandom look bad. 



> yea well for some people alikeness makes relationship stronger and better. it doesn't need to mean friendhsip. alikenessnes sometimes leads to romantic feelings....



I was just saying alikeness = friendship and alikeness =/= romantic love in a way that just because they are alike doesn't mean they are in love. I do, however, agree with the notion that alikeness builds a foundation for love. But not in all cases 



> yea that's kinda my fault.... i mixed links....



That's okay- we all make mistakes ;D


----------



## Forlong (Apr 15, 2009)

gabzilla said:


> You don't think Sakura would be pissed if she found out Naruto henged as Sasuke to make Sakura hate Sasuke and trick her into kissing Naruto?


Yeah, I don't what I was thinking. 



Black Flicka said:


> SM Naruto, greater strength than Sakura, again hits Pain, he survives, and continues to fight.
> this link shows us that sakura get out of her hiding place to warn naruto. i do know that she would do that for sasuke, but this proves she would do it for naruto too
> Link removed
> she feels sorry for naruto. now you can haha what a relationship, but i think that this shows us that how much they got from that: moron move it! i wanna sit on the other side of you. now she cares and she is worried!
> ...


That last one bugs me.  Why was Sakura the only one that _cared_ about Naruto being poisoned?



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> Next page. Sorry I wasn't specific ^^;


I looked at the next page and a few after that.  He is jealous of Naruto's delevopement.  Is that what you meant?  He doesn't seem to effected by Sakura's attention shifting to Naruto.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> Yes, japanese is one of those languages. They are very specific about how they say "love" in context (Not just the word for love, but the entire sentence structure). However, I am not the expert or a very good source. Peraps if someone comes in with good japanese knowledge of language and culture (<--The culture part is a big part in finding the context of how the "love" is used) they can helps us out.


Until we can get that confermation, it's still up in the air.



LuvDaAlchemist said:


> In the VIZ translations, it says:
> 
> Naruto: But... I thought it was just gonna be the two of us, Sakura! Y'know, like a _date_!
> Sakura: If I had that much free time, I'd study more ninjutsu!
> ...


The point I made was she was trying to teach him the same leason she'd learned.  It took someone being harsh to get her to shape up.  After she said that to Naruto and he took Kakashi's badass training, he did get a whole lot smarter.



Black Flicka said:


> next page and a few after that
> so when danger came sakura's 1st reaction is to push naruto down. it's how we narusaku fans see it. you can discuss that she fell or that sasuke wasn't close enough to her but pushing naruto down 1st is one of the options too
> -fangirls-
> *suprised*, blushing. well at least we don't see sasuke here blushing... -.-
> ...


This developement does progress to friendship.  And it has a romantic spin to it.



Ren said:


> I just _knew_ someone was gonna point it out. I didn't say anything on that, because I think it was pretty clear on why she accepted. If you don't remember, go back and check her _expression_. Do you see someone happy for being able to realize her life-long dream? Or do you see someone desperate for food and has no other way than to get it through Naruto right there? oh and before you bring it up: The part in the anime where Sakura goes to eat alone after that and regrets on not going on a date with him? Filler. Not valid.


Her tone in the anime is consistant.  She's not acting like it's something she's crazy about.  SO!?  She's still saying "yes", isn't she?  The fact that she's okay with going on a date with Naruto means nothing?

As for anime not being valid, niether are the databooks.  And it's something to go on.  We have no idea how much say Kishimoto-sensei has in the content of the anime.  The databooks have made it clear that anything Kishimoto-sensei says is ignored.



Ren said:


> Do you seriously think Naruto and Sakura are bringing him back just so he could get put into a corner and watch them cuddle? How sweet.


Still irrelevant!  Naruto clearly wants Sasuke back for his own reasons (not just the pommise he made to Sakura).  Sakura clearly wants Sasuke back because he's her teammate and she wants to free Naruto of the oblogation.  If they end up together, that _doesn't_ effect the search for Sasuke.



Ren said:


> Try and and describe a narusaku "moment" in part 2 that hasn't turned into a comedic one. Don't use the Sai unfinished line with the mistranslation, because it makes no sense: "Sakura you're really gentle with Naruto aren't you?" *6 pages later* Sakura to Naruto: "_Idiot_! That's why we're able to get so close!"


Any time Naruto compliments Sakura!  Each time, she blushes...until he brings up her "brute strength".

So calling him "Baka" makes a romantic relationship with him impossible?  I got two words for you: Mara Jade.



Ren said:


> And what circumstances would those be? Naruto has been oblivious to Hinata's feelings. But haven't you noticed how they have developped? From a "dark shy weirdo" to "someone I really like/you're the kind I like/whatever" (it all leads to the same thing). Their development stopped there because: 1. He's oblivious to her feelings. Now he isn't. 2. She was too shy to say it. She isn't now. 3. They didn't spend enough time together, nor had the time to. Maybe they will now, I don't believe Naruto would turn down Hinata without even giving her chance, since he has shown that he could.


Naruto _not_ being oblivious to her feelings would be a cercomstance.
As for the developement: NaruSaku has had five times more developement and somehow you say that pairing is impossible.



Ren said:


> So, you support NaruSaku because... they share panel time. They _never _spend time alone with each other. In part 1 they were with Sasuke. In part 2 with Sai, Kakashi. But never alone.
> And what's _everything_ exactly? Couldn't he hang out with both Hinata and Sakura,Sai, Kakashi? Just because you have a girlfriend, doesn't mean you have to spend all your days with her.


He could, but he _doesn't_.  He still spends his time with Sakura.  Note that Sai is on his squad, and he doesn't spend as much time with him.  Most of his time with Kakashi and Yamato are devoted to training.  Hinata was there when Naruto needed her, but Sakura is _always_ there for Naruto.


----------



## Kei (Apr 15, 2009)

Forlong said:


> He could, but he _doesn't_.  He still spends his time with Sakura.  Note that Sai is on his squad, and he doesn't spend as much time with him.  Most of his time with Kakashi and Yamato are devoted to training.  Hinata was there when Naruto needed her, but Sakura is _always_ there for Naruto.



It been a long time since I posted in this thread and its pobably going to be my last time too, thanks to my friends I have some confidence in myself. I been looking at the way u argue and I would like to say..Wow...but still u state that Naruto spends most of his time with Sakura...

I would like just to say that doesn;t mean romantic development..


*Spoiler*: __ 



Lets take Asuma and Kurenai for example..they had no screen time together as a couple, but yet we find out that she pregeant




Which means u don't have to be in the panels to get romantic development

Another thing I would like to point out is the Heaven and Earth arc or whatever..

As Iruka state"If you lack Earth run in the fields seek advantages" thats for Naruto, "If You lack Heaven seek wisdom be prepared"

This where the balance thing come from, am I right? Naruto lacks Heaven and Sakura lacks Earth. But as for Sasuke he was completly balance, (somewhere someone is looking at this and saying whoopie doo da day)...

Kay now fast forward to the time skip, where Sakura is completly showing off her strenght and smarts.....*strenght and smarts*, Sakura doesn't lack Earth anymore, she completly strong and smart, while Naruto stills lack Heaven in the time skip.

Take it when he went KN4( i think) when trying to find Sasori bug or something, he completly *lost his MIND!!!*, And Sakura couldn't do anything..So throws off the Sakura can control Naruto

Isn;t that kinda degrading to a character? Espicially Naruto? but back to topic..

This now means Sakura is completly balance, she has both Heaven and Earth, she is....BALANCED!!!, happy right NS fans..

Oh, Sakura is balanced now...So she needs someone who is also balance...Catching on??

Well this is all I'm gonna write becuz i sleepy


----------



## M4verick (Apr 15, 2009)

Naruto's Hinata said:


> It been a long time since I posted in this thread and its pobably going to be my last time too, thanks to my friends I have some confidence in myself. I been looking at the way u argue and I would like to say..Wow...but still u state that Naruto spends most of his time with Sakura...
> 
> I would like just to say that doesn't mean romantic development..



Well, yea...  Naruto and Sakura have great friendship development and romantic development.  In a relationship; Friendship+Romance=Win

Hinata's development is a one sided love.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





Neither of them are main characters, heck, even support characters.  That point is invalid.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> Another thing I would like to point out is the Heaven and Earth arc or whatever..
> 
> As Iruka state"If you lack Earth run in the fields seek advantages" thats for Naruto, "If You lack Heaven seek wisdom be prepared"
> 
> ...



Well, Naruto actually is becoming more balanced himself so...


----------



## Hikui (Apr 15, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> And no, you can't arbitarily throw in Red Herrings in Narratives without a set purpose.
> 
> As for Rowlings, do point out where she used Red Herring for romance.  Frankly, outside of Ron and Herimone, romance wasn't really at the forefront of the novels.



*sigh* 
You don't seem to get my point at all. And yes, romance wasn't the forefront of the novel. Red Herrings can be used to all subplots and even when romance isn't the forefront of most novels red herrings can be applied. 

Just because romance isn't as serious as other subplots/main plot, it doesn't mean red herrings can't be applied, it is just another way for the author to have fun with the readers. (Lots of people are very passionate about pairings, hence we're here). 
Red herrings in romance if used are not applied for no reason at all, but to confuse people about who the "real" pairing is until the end. 



Tyrannos said:


> You quoted from Wikipedia......



First, I only quoted the first (or the second?) definition from Wikipedia because I was lazy. So, there's no reason to point it out to me. Does using Wikipedia make me less legit? :amazed

So, if I take this argument too seriously: I would have to find all the info I read about the subject, it would waste my time and it would be fruitless since you don't seem open to change your opinion

It's not debate about red herrings but about the main three pairings. 




Tyrannos said:


> Come now, it's pretty obvious when it comes to mangas.



You didn't answer my question. 



Tyrannos said:


> See there you go again, you're basing decisions based on heresay and second-hand information.
> 
> And your saying "well it's Red Herring because it distracted", when it's not the case.   You _assume_ it was distracting because you had the illusion of a love triangle.



That's what red herrings are all about. Whether they have some truth to it or whatever, it doesn't matter.That's what a red herring is. You have the illusion that something is going on when it clearly isn't. 



> Thus, a "red herring"  *distracts* the audience from the issue in question through the introduction of something else.





> Sources:
> 
> * Aristotle, On Sophistical Refutations, Section 1, Part 5; W. A. Pickard-Cambridge, translator.
> * S. Morris Engel, Analyzing Informal Fallacies (Prentice-Hall, 1980), pp. 95-99.



Happy? See the legit references? 



Tyrannos said:


> "Well Luke had feelings for Leia".........
> 
> You know what, that sounds exactly what people are doing with NaruHina.  "Well Hinata has feelings for Naruto, therefore they are meant for one another."  (And yes, the same can be said for NaruSaku and SasuSaku as well).



Valid points, we all could be wrong.



> *Red herring* is a *plot device* that *distracts* the reader's or the audience's attention from the *plot twist*s that are really important for the story. This is often done on purpose to *maintain tension and uncertainty.*Glory Box



Naruhina sounds like a twist ending to lots of people. (You don't have to take this seriously). 



Tyrannos said:


> No, I don't.   For that to be true, Harry would've had romantic feelings for Herimone.  And best I recall, there was none.



Not necessarily, because that would mean that all heroes end up with the first person they have crush on (Harry/ Cho! :amazed), but it's not always the case (it's all about the development). As for no romantic feelings in the relationship that is something that can be debatable (on Hermione's part) to some people, but I won't touch that subject. (at all, don't try please). 



Tyrannos said:


> No, they don't.  I guarantee you that 99% of storytellers out there aren't sitting in thought going, "Okay I need to put this girl in to distract from the real one".
> 
> And they definitely aren't concerned over pairings when writing out the plot.
> 
> It's their story, and they aren't going throw their long-developed plot, solely to appease the majority of the fanbase, because they like such and such pairing.



Almost all romance novels use it, (hell) Jane Austen is famous for this, there goes like I don't know 10% of all authors?

And of course they're not changing the plot to please the fanbase, what I said was that if they (author) didn't convince the audience (with their writing not interviews, etc) that whatever is true and real (so that it leaves it-in this case pairings- to personal taste) then they fail. 

That said, I already pointed out that I don't think Kishimoto is necessarily doing this. 




Tyrannos said:


> Eh, there really wasn't any romance in the Dragonball Manga.
> 
> You assumed it is because of Goku and Chichi getting together.   But in reality Goku was totally clueless to Chichi's actions, even up until he got married.   The only time we saw anything close to romance was when those to got it on, which resulted in Goten.



Of course there wasn't romance, what I had meant with my statement is that there was never a place for say other love interests because the author made clear who Goku was ending up with since almost the begging.




Tyrannos said:


> I never said there was no red herring in action, I said there isn't red herring when it comes to romance in action manga.
> 
> And Chichi isn't really a plot device, because her importance was only for the procreation of the children.   Plot devices are long-term.
> 
> ...





> A plot device is an object, a character or a concept introduced into the story by the author to advance its plot.



There, she advanced the plot introducing (giving birth to) Gohan, she's a plot device. Plot devices are not always long termed. 



Tyrannos said:


> Well we strayed from the original Red Herring arguement which was intitially designed as very Anti-NaruSaku, and some still use that today.
> 
> So in a way yes, my arguement is very Pro-NaruSaku because Red Herrings can't be stablished until other scenarios are brought forth.   So NaruSaku can't be the Red Herring for NaruHina, because NaruHina wasn't introduced until 30+ Chapters later, when Hinata's feelings were known. And NaruSaku can't be the Red Herring for SasuSaku, because Sakura's confession would've negated the any NaruSaku Red Herring.



Yeah we strayed away, my only point was to prove that the term red herring can be valid to refer to NaruSaku (and for the sake of the debate all pairings). 

I disagree for your reasons of why NaruSaku is not a red herring, but since I want to stop the whole red herring mess, I won't elaborate on something some others have. 



Tyrannos said:


> Though it seems you are starting to see my viewpoint that with Kishimoto being so inexperienced with romance, putting in a Pairing Red Herring would be too much for him.  So all he does is just simply bring moments to light that has us question "who will it be?"  One day it will be NaruSaku, the next be NaruHina, then he will bring out SasuSaku.   He keeps us on our toes until that final resolution of the definitive winner.



That's what I believed all along. 
Let the debate continue. 
Nice debating with you.


----------



## Nadini (Apr 15, 2009)

Naruto's Hinata said:


> say..Wow...but still u state that Naruto spends most of his time with Sakura...
> 
> I would like just to say that doesn;t mean romantic development..
> 
> ...


No, it certainly doesn't, but it means mutual development, romance must start from _somewhere_

Asuma and Kurenai are minor character and are not relevant to the plot, _at all_, besides giving Shikamaru his angst spree.





> Another thing I would like to point out is the Heaven and Earth arc or whatever..
> 
> As Iruka state"If you lack Earth run in the fields seek advantages" thats for Naruto, "If You lack Heaven seek wisdom be prepared"
> 
> ...


Naruto is pretty smart in battle, he's tricky and unpredictable(hey, at least to the villains, RASENGAN!!! ain't that predictable to the readers) the only thing naruto actually lacks is book smarts, which he will _never_ have, so technically he will _always_ lack heaven.

doesn't mean he can't outsmart anyone 



> Take it when he went KN4( i think) when trying to find Sasori bug or something, he completly *lost his MIND!!!*, And Sakura couldn't do anything..So throws off the Sakura can control Naruto


this ain't a 2bit shoujo, 'power of love' ain't gonna return naruto from Kyuubi, not sasuke's, not sakura's and most certainly not Hinata's.




> This now means Sakura is completly balance, she has both Heaven and Earth, she is....BALANCED!!!, happy right NS fans..
> 
> Oh, Sakura is balanced now...So she needs someone who is also balance...Catching on??



heavy opinion, and what has H&E got to do with them getting together?
If that's your reason for discounting NS, amongst other, more worthwhile scenes, it doesn't work, least to me.



@izzy
i love you, keep up the great posts 
yes, only posted here to say that, that up there is just an excuse so a mod doesn't kill me for 'spamming'


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## Forlong (Apr 15, 2009)

Naruto's Hinata said:


> It been a long time since I posted in this thread and its pobably going to be my last time too, thanks to my friends I have some confidence in myself. I been looking at the way u argue and I would like to say..Wow...but still u state that Naruto spends most of his time with Sakura...
> 
> I would like just to say that doesn;t mean romantic development..


When you don't have screne time with the MAIN CHARACTER, you're unlikely to become his love interest.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> Another thing I would like to point out is the Heaven and Earth arc or whatever..
> 
> As Iruka state"If you lack Earth run in the fields seek advantages" thats for Naruto, "If You lack Heaven seek wisdom be prepared"
> 
> ...



Er...here.  Naruto is ballanced.  Arguement dead.

Now for this that was said:


> Take it when he went KN4( i think) when trying to find Sasori bug or something, he completly *lost his MIND!!!*, And Sakura couldn't do anything..So throws off the Sakura can control Naruto


I never supported that arguement, so I don't know why you brought it up.


----------



## Takagou (Apr 16, 2009)

Forlong said:


> \
> 
> The point I made was she was trying to teach him the same leason she'd learned.  It took someone being harsh to get her to shape up.  After she said that to Naruto and he took Kakashi's badass training, he did get a whole lot smarter.




While I disagree with 90$ of what your entire post said, I don't have the stamina for counterpointing each aspect of your argument 

So just this one, which is one that bothers me in general about narusaku.

Sakura should treat Naruto like that, because he is her friend.  I think the idea that Naruto needs someone to control him (in a romantic sense) and change him is horrible.  He should be respected and loved by his wife/girlfriend/soul mate/whateva for who he is, not who she wants to beat nag him into being.  It's up to friends and family and Naruto himself to make a guy like Naruto the best he can be, and it is up a love interest to appreciate him for all his successes, failings, high points and down falls. 

It's this general principle that made me lean toward NaruHina to begin with.  She always liked Naruto just as he was, and Sakura has always been disagreeable with his more immature or pervy side.  I can't see her going from "DUMBASS!" to "Aww, that's my Naruto!" unless it means altering who Naruto is to begin with.


----------



## M4verick (Apr 16, 2009)

Takagou said:


> While I disagree with 90$ of what your entire post said, I don't have the stamina for counterpointing each aspect of your argument
> 
> So just this one, which is one that bothers me in general about narusaku.
> 
> ...



Thats not a principal, that 100% your opinion.

Also, Sakura does love and respects Naruto.  And to add to that, she cares about him, encourages him, believes in him, and understands him.  Also, Naruto is her knight in shining armour.


  Just because she hits him means nothing.  In many mangas, the love interest of the protagonist hits them from time to time.

What sides of Naruto has Hinata even seen?  She's seen him never giving up right, and a lil bit of his stupid side, What else?


----------



## Black Flicka (Apr 16, 2009)

Forlong said:


> This developement does progress to friendship.  *And it has a romantic spin to it.*


all i wanted to prove


----------



## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

> This developement does progress to friendship. And it has a romantic spin to it.


WAT?!

I'm sorry, but no, there's no romantic spin in any of those pages. As a matter of fact, even in the anime, Sakura did at no moment blush or showed any romantic attitude towards Naruto in those scenes. As a matter of fact, it is not until after Sasuke leaves that there's any hint of any romantic feelings between the two at all.

The "What is this feeling, is this Naruto?" was an expression used at many times, Ino even said the same thing during Naruto's fight with Kiba in the Chuunin arc, and more recently during the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu... I have yet to see a sign that Ino wants to get in Naruto's pants, so, my conclusion: It does not hint at anything romantic. 

As for the other scenes, the ones that indicate relief or concern. 

I was once run over by a car and was hospitalized for about two weeks. I remember my best friend who happens to be a FEMALE (OMFG!! COULD THAT BE POSSIBLE?!) showing the same amount of concern and relief when I was stabilized even though she herself was ENGAGED. So, either I'm a homewrecker or you guys could be reading too much into simple expressions of humanity and friendship.

You can't bring any possible example of actual romance between Sakura and Naruto before the time skip because THERE ARE NONE. Sakura does learn to acknowledge, respect, and believe in Naruto during this arc, but she develops no romantics feelings for him until AFTER the time-skip.



> Also, Sakura does love and respects Naruto. And to add to that, she cares about him, encourages him, believes in him, and understands him. Also, Naruto is her knight in shining armour.


Now, THESE can be taken as serious examples of Sakura's romantic feelings towards Naruto. And they are strong examples too... But even so, none of them are as strong as an ACTUAL CONFESSION OF LOVE, or as actually putting her life at risk against a borderline invincible enemy to save him. The databook itself says that even Sakura is unsure now of her feelings for Naruto, which is an obvious hint at romance between the two, so I will not go like your standard NaruHina fan to say: "naruto is leik a bro to sakura!!1one!eleven" because it's obvious her feelings have blossomed to something else... Though that doesn't necessarily means she's in love with him.

Still, let's look at the cold hard facts here... (or rather the extremely cute, warm, fuzzy, but still hard FACTS...)

Hinata was the first person in the whole Konoha to actually see the true Naruto, not the class clown who was loud and annoying as hell and screwed up even though he spoke big, but rather the boy with a dream who always struggled to move forward and believed in his own worth in spite of everything else.

Naruto brings out the best in Hinata, and it has been proved that Hinata can do the same for him.

Hinata's feelings, unlike Sakura's are not open to argument or discussion, as much as many of you would like to discard them as simple admiration, it has from day one been obvious that she is in love with Naruto. Where as Sakura still has a lot of things to sort out...

*Spoiler*: __ 




Hinata's confession is a huge step for the relationship between both Naruto and Hinata. It is impossible now even for someone as dense as Naruto to ignore it, and the fact that he cares for her is now undeniable. Whether or not he loves her, is an entirely different matter but at the very least she now undeniably holds an IMPORTANT place in Naruto's heart. As demonstrated here. (Notice the tears of joy and relief he sheds afterwards, it almost makes me d'awwwww.)



Naruto's attempts at romance with Sakura during both the first and second part of the series can NOT possibly be taken seriously. Since he makes his approaches in the same manner I always made my approaches to the pretty girls in class when I was 10, even though I really liked the cute quite girl on the back (true story).

Finally...

During my life I've backed a good number of couples doomed to failure, Keitaro/Motoko from Love Hina, Ichitaka/Itsuki from I's, Shiro/Rin from F/S Night, Ruki/Takato from Digimon: Tamers, Shinji/Rei from NGE... And I have backed some winning couples, like Daisuke/Riku from DNAngel, Shaoran/Sakura from CCS, Misa/Hikaru from Robotech, Daisuke/Hinako from Bitter Virgin,  Sana/Akito from Kodocha, Kaoru/Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin, Renton/Eureka from Eureka 7, Tate/Mai from Mai Hime, Bell/Kenichi from OMG.

As many of you (the veteran anime fans mostly) have realized, I have no aversion to canon couples, or obvious couples, my belief is rather, that couple should bring out the best in each other, that both parts should look and accept each other as who they really are, and that the faith in each other must be unwavering, and that in love, struggle and and effort should be rewarded with a happy ending.

Looking at my chosen losing couples... Motoko is the one who struggled the hardest to change for the sake of her feelings to Keitaro, Itsuki never ever stopped believing in Ichitaka, Takato helped Ruki to love and accept her true non digimon queen girly self, Shiro allowed Rin to be who she really was around him, and Shinji awakened the humanity in Ayanami's heart... These facts are undeniable.

If I had to compare NaruSaku to a relationship in other anime, it would be to Keitaro/Naru from Love Hina, and there is a reason why I dislike both. The first reason is that in both cases, Naru and Sakura are weak, self-involved characters with unnecessarily aggressive personalities. 

Even in spite of of their relationship with the main character... Naru remains weak, self involved and unnecessarily aggressive, and while Sakura lets go of the "self involved" she retains the "weak and unnecessarily aggressive" part. As even in the fights she's been involved in since the time skip, Sakura remains a basically useless character even with Tsunade's monster strength (And please, don't bring the Sasori fight into this either, because we all know without Chiiyo there, Sakura would have never been able to defeat the puppet Master).

Naruto does not bring out the best from Sakura, and if he does, and what Sakura has shown in the second part of Naruto is really the best in her... Well, then, quite frankly she sucks... I still have yet to see Sakura beat a truly strong enemy on her own devices, with her own strategies and taking  herself to her own limits, and I've never seen her do anything for Naruto's sake only (Hinata may not have beaten Neji or Pain either, but at the very least she gets the points for ACTUALLY TRYING and risking her life in the process). Just like I never did see Naru Narusegawa make an effort to improve her relationship with Keitaro, or for Keitaro's sake only. Which is why, in spite the fact that the couple was canon, I hated it with all my might.

Also, THIS:



> - Hinata seems to share similarities with a somewhat established stereotype of typical manga/anime girls - characterised by cuteness to the point of adorability, introversion, dark and/or blue hair, a fierce resolve to work harder, and a crush on the unaware main character. The "Sailor Hinata" incident is consistent with this, as the uncharacteristic encounter where the main character is shocked by a side of the character he hasn't seen before, often involving nudity, is a recurring theme as well. Compare Shinobu Maehara, Nodoka Miyazaki and partly Ami Mizuno (who is, funnily enough, Sailor Mercury) and Rei Ayanami. In these series, the main characters' love interest traditional stereotype was loosely established as the fierce, often violent, brave and resourceful, hot-headed girl with a hair color to match, who deep inside cares for the main character a lot more than she is willing to admit - a stereotype that Sakura obviously matches closely, suggesting that if this trend continues, she will be Naruto's love interest. Despite this (and even maybe partly because of this - *there is a fine line between a recurring theme and a clich?*), Hinata is currently the much more popular match for Naruto in the show's fandom.


Of course, I do not approve of Keitaro/Shinobu in Love Hina, since the girl is 12 and the guy 21. Besides, Motoko and Hinata both share the same Yamato Nadeshiko archetype, and with the sole difference that Motoko is confident in her combat skills and outspoken, and Hinata is not confident in anything, they still share tons of things in common.

EDIT: I apologize for not tagging the spoilers before... I got carried away in the discussion


----------



## Renxx (Apr 16, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I looked at the next page and a few after that.  He is jealous of Naruto's delevopement.  Is that what you meant?  He doesn't seem to effected by Sakura's attention shifting to Naruto.



He says  Naruto was the one who saved her, he didn't. She smiles at Naruto. He stares at _her _with some kind of an expression_._ if it was solely jealousy over Naruto's power, then why did he kept staring at Sakura and didn't even look at Naruto?



Forlong said:


> The point I made was she was trying to teach him the same leason she'd learned.  It took someone being harsh to get her to shape up.  After she said that to Naruto and he took Kakashi's badass training, he did get a whole lot smarter.



Again, he did not take Kakashi's training because of what Sakura told him. He took the training to get stronger with influence from Sasuke, clearly. Sakura is not mentioned once in that part as his influence to train.
While Sakura, when Sasuke was being harsh to her, she only learned from it. We see her realizing that what he said about her being weaker than Naruto was true. The result: she was depressed, and Sasuke cheered her up (when Naruto saw nothing wrong with Sakura, I wonder what that tells us?). And later, she finally "woke up" and protected her friends when they needed her.



Forlong said:


> Her tone in the anime is consistant.  She's not acting like it's something she's crazy about.  SO!?  She's still saying "yes", isn't she?  The fact that she's okay with going on a date with Naruto means nothing?



The next time he asked her if they were going on a date she overreacted and said a big no, with a "dumbass" included. I know that they had to go meet Tsunade, but if going on a date with him was something she didn't mind to do occasionally, she would have reacted at least in a calmer way. 



Forlong said:


> As for anime not being valid, niether are the databooks.  And it's something to go on.  We have no idea how much say Kishimoto-sensei has in the content of the anime.  The databooks have made it clear that anything Kishimoto-sensei says is ignored.



The databook is based on the manga, it is directly made by Kishimoto. I don't get why people have such a hard time understanding that, nor why they despise it.
And check this thread's rules. No fillers. Only canon.



Forlong said:


> Any time Naruto compliments Sakura!  Each time, she blushes...until he brings up her "brute strength".



wait what. When did he compliment her in part 2?



Forlong said:


> So calling him "Baka" makes a romantic relationship with him impossible?  I got two words for you: Mara Jade.



I didn't say that calling him baka would make a romantic relationship impossible. I'm just pointing out that _normally_, you don't call someone a jerk/fool/dumbass/idiot that you're _supposedly_ gentle with, do you?
Hence, why the "considerate of Naruto's feelings" translation would have made a lot more sense within the context, since, well, they _were _talking about Naruto and Sasuke's relationship.
And why are you bringing Star Wars into this?  If Kishi was the creator of SW, I would have understood that but... he isn't.



Forlong said:


> Naruto _not_ being oblivious to her feelings would be a cercomstance.
> As for the developement: NaruSaku has had five times more developement and somehow you say that pairing is impossible.



Well, he obviously isn't now. Does that turn *now* into a circumstance?
If Naruto's crush was actually treated as serious business in the manga, I would have more respect towards the pairing. But he never took it too seriously. Here's an exemple: next page and a few after that or when he said that Haku was prettier than Sakura, or when he said she hadn't changed at all in 245, when he accidently insults her in 297 That and they only got one thing in common: Sasuke. They only understand each other's pain when it comes to Sasuke. Sakura was harsh towards Naruto when he learned Jiraiya had died; she lied to him when Kyuubi Naruto injured her (being shielded from the truth is something Naruto doesn't need. He's not exactly a little kid anymore.).
Think Sakura's beginning crush on Sasuke. She asked him out on dates quite some times, he turned her down every time and told her to go study or train. Over time, she stopped asking him out and her crush developped into love (Mara Jade if you have doubts about her feelings. And funny how the scene where Hinata was ready to sacrifice her life to save Naruto is similiar to this one. Hinata's feelings are now recognized as love, so why are Sakura's different?). We have yet to see that with Naruto.



Forlong said:


> He could, but he _doesn't_.  He still spends his time with Sakura.  Note that Sai is on his squad, and he doesn't spend as much time with him.  Most of his time with Kakashi and Yamato are devoted to training.  Hinata was there when Naruto needed her, but Sakura is _always_ there for Naruto.



Just when have they spent time alone together? And, of course Sakura is there for Naruto, they kind of are teammates (therefore, spend more time together because they have to)


----------



## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

I think it is fair to say, that while Sakura MAY or MAY NOT have romantic feelings for Naruto (Hell, even she doesn't know if she does...). We can safely assume that Naruto does not hold any more than a simple childish crush for her, and hell, I've had those, and I teach a class of Tae Kwon Do for 10 year olds, so I've seen it too... There's a real difference between a simple crush, and the kind of love where you jump in front of a class S ninja, announce your love to for the person you're trying to protect to the world then launch yourself to a certain death.

And even if she DOES have romantic feelings for Naruto, she hasn't had them for as long as Hinata has, and she has never demonstrated them at the level that Hinata has.


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 16, 2009)

It's true that for example Hinata feelings for Naruto were obvious a long time ago, that reffers to Sakura -> Sasuke feelings also. Naruto<->Sakura feelings weren't clarified at all. They were rather more and more complicated because at the beginning we knew that Sakura hated Naruto clearly. Later she started to admire him slowly but that was also cleared. And when the time passed their mutual relationship began to be incomprehensible. It's true that Sakura started to care a lot more about Naruto, also in anime there were several moments where they were talking alone(usually about Sasuke) however their conversations also had deeper meanings(other feelings, places called "home", bijuu thread). I can say that I like not only Sakura but also Hinata and actually for me they're both very close and important persons but in case that Sakura spent more time with Naruto she seems to be a little(more than little  )closer to him.
I think that manga isn't going to show us a lot more about this three mutal relations and it will just be shown at the end what will become with these characters feelings. More we will see in anime for sure(even in fillers). What I think also is that Kishi will mix this relationships even more to make us dizzy as hell then it will be decided at the very end who will end up with who (but I guess that not all reasons will be revealed and we will have to figure it out by ourselves).


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 16, 2009)

Hikui said:


> You don't seem to get my point at all. And yes, romance wasn't the forefront of the novel. Red Herrings can be used to all subplots and even when romance isn't the forefront of most novels red herrings can be applied.
> 
> Just because romance isn't as serious as other subplots/main plot, it doesn't mean red herrings can't be applied, it is just another way for the author to have fun with the readers. (Lots of people are very passionate about pairings, hence we're here).
> Red herrings in romance if used are not applied for no reason at all, but to confuse people about who the "real" pairing is until the end.


 
Again you are using wordplay to justify Red Herrings in Naruto, which I say once again, "There is none". 

Red Herrings are *not* used to distract readers with pairings, they are tools to distract the reader / viewer of the truth of the plot. So unless it's a romantic story that revolves solely around a couple, red herrings isn't going to be involved in romances.



Hikui said:


> It's not debate about red herrings but about the main three pairings.


 
Yes, this thread is all about the "Three Pairings", and people using Red Herrings to justify their Anti-NaruSaku / Pro-NaruHina sentiment.



Hikui said:


> You didn't answer my question.


 
How are they foreshadows? Simple, because they do. Interest foreshadows development, even if it doesn't work out. 



Hikui said:


> That's what red herrings are all about. Whether they have some truth to it or whatever, it doesn't matter.That's what a red herring is. You have the illusion that something is going on when it clearly isn't.


 
Red Herrings is about people guessing and gossiping? 

No, Red Herrings is a tool to distract the reader from the truth of the plot, and to keep them guessing until the truth of the plot is revealed.



Hikui said:


> Happy? See the legit references?


 
Better, but all you did was cite the basic definition in emphasizing the "distracts" to justify your arguement.

But I know for a fact there is much more to that definition than that. I don't see it mentioning it being "distracts from the central plot". In which we all here know that Naruto's central plot isn't around romance. 



Hikui said:


> Valid points, we all could be wrong.


 
That's the thing about stories, you don't know until the very end. And why this thread exists, to "discuss" our viewpoints and hopefully come to a concensus of the definitive pairing before the end.



Hikui said:


> Naruhina sounds like a twist ending to lots of people. (You don't have to take this seriously).


 
Twists are sudden events in the middle of a story. So with Naruto pairings, having them come out the blue would've been true twists. Like if Sakura suddenly started going out with Sai. That would've been a twist. But since character's fondness for one another been long established, NS, NH, or SS can't be twists.



Hikui said:


> Not necessarily, because that would mean that all heroes end up with the first person they have crush on (Harry/ Cho! ), but it's not always the case (it's all about the development). As for no romantic feelings in the relationship that is something that can be debatable (on Hermione's part) to some people, but I won't touch that subject. (at all, don't try please).


 
You realize your mixing up Western Literature with Japanese Manga. 

Apples with Oranges! 



Hikui said:


> Almost all romance novels use it, (hell) Jane Austen is famous for this, there goes like I don't know 10% of all authors?
> 
> And of course they're not changing the plot to please the fanbase, what I said was that if they (author) didn't convince the audience (with their writing not interviews, etc) that whatever is true and real (so that it leaves it-in this case pairings- to personal taste) then they fail.
> 
> That said, I already pointed out that I don't think Kishimoto is necessarily doing this.


 
Well 1 famous writer doesn't jump all storytellers from 1% to 10%, unless you got like 1 out of 9 writers doing it. 

Anyhow with Kishimoto, he long established how the story was going to end, so we have to see what he comes up with. But people need to remember that his interviews (like any mangaka's) are meant to be cryptic and illusive. Sometimes people see things when they were never the truth. 



Hikui said:


> Of course there wasn't romance, what I had meant with my statement is that there was never a place for say other love interests because the author made clear who Goku was ending up with since almost the begging.


 
No, Toriyama didn't show who Goku was going to be with in the beginning, which is rare with manga and anime.



Hikui said:


> There, she advanced the plot introducing (giving birth to) Gohan, she's a plot device. Plot devices are not always long termed.


 
Okay, I'll conceed on that. But you know that makes Hinata one too. <Cough> X Ray <Cough> 



Hikui said:


> Yeah we strayed away, my only point was to prove that the term red herring can be valid to refer to NaruSaku (and for the sake of the debate all pairings).
> 
> I disagree for your reasons of why NaruSaku is not a red herring, but since I want to stop the whole red herring mess, I won't elaborate on something some others have.


 
Well I still disagree that NaruSaku is the "Red Herring" for NH and SS, because some people don't view it seriously and they claim it has no significant moments.

For the sake of arguement, if NS was the Red Herring, then don't you think that those confessions would not have been so powerful? And how could NS be the red herring for pairings that didn't exist prior? Again that goes against the basic rules.

You can't hide something that doesn't yet exist. 



Hikui said:


> That's what I believed all along.
> Let the debate continue.
> Nice debating with you.


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## Forlong (Apr 16, 2009)

Takagou said:


> Sakura should treat Naruto like that, because he is her friend.  I think the idea that Naruto needs someone to control him (in a romantic sense) and change him is horrible.  He should be respected and loved by his wife/girlfriend/soul mate/whateva for who he is, not who she wants to beat nag him into being.


First off, I don't agrue that Sakura belongs with Naruto because she can control him.  Please stop talking about it.
Naruto _is_ going to change, regardless of what Sakura or Hinata does.  We don't know how Hinata feels about change, but it's part of life.  You _should_ incourage your significant other to better himself/herself.  We know Sakura does that.  She wants Naruto to get stronger and smarter.  So it's understandable that she gets upset when he slacks off.  Are you saying she shouldn't care if he doesn't have a regular schedule or eat healthy? 

Now, maki:


> I'm sorry, but no, there's no romantic spin in any of those pages. As a matter of fact, even in the anime, Sakura did at no moment blush or showed any romantic attitude towards Naruto in those scenes. As a matter of fact, it is not until after Sasuke leaves that there's any hint of any romantic feelings between the two at all.


Some of the examples _are_ times when she blushes.



> The "What is this feeling, is this Naruto?" was an expression used at many times, Ino even said the same thing during Naruto's fight with Kiba in the Chuunin arc, and more recently during the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu... I have yet to see a sign that Ino wants to get in Naruto's pants, so, my conclusion: It does not hint at anything romantic.


Maybe she does. 



> I was once run over by a car and was hospitalized for about two weeks. I remember my best friend who happens to be a FEMALE (OMFG!! COULD THAT BE POSSIBLE?!) showing the same amount of concern and relief when I was stabilized even though she herself was ENGAGED.


Yeah, well you were hit by a *car*, not fighting someone only a few years older than you.  You were _very_ likely to die.  Sakura didn't believe Naruto would die fighting Haku.



> Now, THESE can be taken as serious examples of Sakura's romantic feelings towards Naruto. And they are strong examples too... But even so, none of them are as strong as an ACTUAL CONFESSION OF LOVE, or as actually putting her life at risk against a borderline invincible enemy to save him.


Yeah, she never fought a guy that would have killed Naruto...like a guy who could control puppets...



> Naruto brings out the best in Hinata, and it has been proved that Hinata can do the same for him.


Yeah, she brings out the best in Naruto...

*Spoiler*: __ 



...like the 6-tailed Kyuubi form.






> Naruto's attempts at romance with Sakura during both the first and second part of the series can NOT possibly be taken seriously. Since he makes his approaches in the same manner I always made my approaches to the pretty girls in class when I was 10,


So...who gives Naruto dating advice?  You had a dad (or perhaps a father figure) to set you strait (mom probably helped too).  But who's going to set Naruto strait on that?



> (And please, don't bring the Sasori fight into this either, because we all know without Chiiyo there, Sakura would have never been able to defeat the puppet Master)


:rofl
That's so rediculess.  Chiiyo didn't do jack-crap in that fight.  She was all like: "Sakura, you do all the hard work, while I hang back and screw up."
Look at this page and the next...4 pages.  I don't see Chiiyo even _getting out of the way!_



> Link r us does not bring out the best from Sakura, and if he does, and what Sakura has shown in the second part of Naruto is really the best in her... Well, then, quite frankly she sucks... I still have yet to see Sakura beat a truly strong enemy on her own devices, with her own strategies and taking  herself to her own limits, and I've never seen her do anything for Naruto's sake only


Wait..._WHAT!?_  What about this (check this page and the next one), this, and this?  And, as I pointed out earlier, she beat the crap out of Sasori without any real help from Chiiyo.

Now for Ren:


> He says  Naruto was the one who saved her, he didn't. She smiles at Naruto. He stares at _her _with some kind of an expression_._ if it was solely jealousy over Naruto's power, then why did he kept staring at Sakura and didn't even look at Naruto?


Maybe he is jealous of Naruto getting Sakura's attention.  I'm not to sure, though.



> Again, he did not take Kakashi's training because of what Sakura told him. He took the training to get stronger with influence from Sasuke, clearly. Sakura is not mentioned once in that part as his influence to train.
> While Sakura, when Sasuke was being harsh to her, she only learned from it. We see her realizing that what he said about her being weaker than Naruto was true.


Yeah, but Sakura didn't improove until Sasuke's life was in danger.  So...yeah...



> The result: she was depressed, and Sasuke cheered her up (when Naruto saw nothing wrong with Sakura, I wonder what that tells us?).


How do you know Naruto talking to her wasn't an attempt to cheer her up?  It didn't do the job, he might have been trying.  And trying to cheer her up does not mean Sasuke loves her.



> The databook is based on the manga, it is directly made by Kishimoto.


One of the databooks said that Naruto was Hinata's on-off boyfriend.  Sounds like crap to me.



> I didn't say that calling him baka would make a romantic relationship impossible. I'm just pointing out that _normally_, you don't call someone a jerk/fool/dumbass/idiot that you're _supposedly_ gentle with, do you?
> Hence, why the "considerate of Naruto's feelings" translation would have made a lot more sense within the context, since, well, they _were _talking about Naruto and Sasuke's relationship.
> And why are you bringing Star Wars into this?  If Kishi was the creator of SW, I would have understood that but... he isn't.


You seriously haven't seen it happen before?  Romantic relationships start out this way _a lot_.  Especially in manga!  I brought up Mara Jade, because her relationship with Luke Skywalker is the clearest case of it.  There's also Serina and Darien (Sailor Moon), Vageta and Bulma (Dragonball), probably a lot more I don't know about or can't remember.  Bringing up that she used to be mean to him means nothing.



> If Naruto's crush was actually treated as serious business in the manga, I would have more respect towards the pairing.


  That made no sense.



> But he never took it too seriously. Here's an exemple: and this or when he said that Haku was prettier than Sakura,


So he can't find any other women atractive?  And, since they aren't offically together, he's free to date whoever he feels like.



> or when he said she hadn't changed at all in 245,


 So...how does that disproove his feelings for Sakura?



> when he accidently insults her in 297


You just disprooved your own statement by using the word "accidently".



> That and they only got one thing in common: Sasuke. They only understand each other's pain when it comes to Sasuke.


Read chapters 3 & 4 of this manga!  Seriously, how can you say they have nothing in common?



> Sakura was harsh towards Naruto when he learned Jiraiya had died;


What the H-E-double "L" are you talking about?  Let's see she looks worried.



> What about this (check this page and the next one) lied to him when Kyuubi Naruto injured her (being shielded from the truth is something Naruto doesn't need. He's not exactly a little kid anymore.).


You're saying she should have told him he nearly killed her?



> Just when have they spent time alone together? And, of course Sakura is there for Naruto, they kind of are teammates (therefore, spend more time together because they have to)


They don't have to spend time alone together.  You said that Naruto could hang out with Hinata, Sakura, and Sai.  Well, that's not being alone with Hinata, so it would make NaruHina impossible, right?



maki0129 said:


> We can safely assume that Naruto does not hold any more than a simple childish crush for her, and hell, I've had those, and I teach a class of Tae Kwon Do for 10 year olds, so I've seen it too... There's a real difference between a simple crush, and the kind of love where you jump in front of a class S ninja, announce your love to for the person you're trying to protect to the world then launch yourself to a certain death.
> 
> And even if she DOES have romantic feelings for Naruto, she hasn't had them for as long as Hinata has, and she has never demonstrated them at the level that Hinata has.



Naruto risked his life fighting Gaara to protect Sakura and risked his life to bring Sasuke back just to make her happy.  Is that just a "simple crush"?
As for Hinata having feelings for him longer than Sakura, that's irrelevant.  I don't see how that makes Sakura's feelings any less meaningful.  At least, what Naruto had Sakura's respect, he _KNEW_ it!


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## Black Flicka (Apr 16, 2009)

Hell yeah! I completely agree with Forlong. With every sentence!

I wanna add something. you know guys not everything is about hinata! what about naruto's feelings?! he wouldn't have fought so hard for sakura if he would just throw his feelings for her in the trash and settle for second best.

hinata's not even a main character but a side character and the anime rules state that there is little to no chance of a side character EVER getting with a main character except through fanfiction. thus that also says that naruhina has about as much chance happening as a snail does beating a car in a race.

also the anime rules state that the main female character ALWAYS falls in love with the main character at the end. just look at ranma 1/2 and you'll see what I mean and believe me akane is worse than sakura ever is at points.

as far as sasuke goes. in my mind he doesn't deserve love of any kind since he's done nothing to really deserve it and c'mon sakura could do so much better than him. I mean why would she want someone who just put's her down all the time and treats her like trash when she could have someone like naruto. someone who's always there for her and treats her with respect. if sakura were to go with sasuke she'd be freakin miserable and the only reason sasuke would even consider sakura is because she's on the same team as him and even then he'd only use her to pump out as many uchiha babies as possible. he'd treat her more like property than a human being and sakura deserves better than that.

But then again that's all my opinion


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## Black Flicka (Apr 16, 2009)

while sakura does care deeply for sasuke, we haven't seen any solid reasons WHY she had her crush on him - asides from "Sasuke-kun's so cool!"

but I agree there will be conflict with the three potential couples in the near future. sakura will probably have to contend with conflicting feelings and have to let sasuke go. And there is the possible hinata/sakura "rivalry" for naruto's feelings. i think that's very possible because we all see somethings not ok with sakura, she is thinking too much to herself and WE CAN'T SEE WHAT THE HELL IS SHE THINKING?! so maybe kishimoto wants to make it more complicated 

of course, there is going to be something really big coming up in the next few weeks involving naruto and sakura's relationship in the manga.

the key here is that sasuke DOES NOT return Sakura's feelings asides from being a sort of brother to her. naruto DOES NOT return hinata's crush(from what we know), he just likes her. you can't make a relationship if the feelings are all one way.

we can only hope 

and if you still don't get it sasuke betrayed the leaf. and still those sasusakus think he'll just prance back into konoha, tsunade will let him off easy and he'll express his love for sakura. (well maybe tsunade WILL let him, i mean whats the point looking for him if she wont)
or that Sakura will run off and find him, and they'll embrace.

sasuke's already betrayed konoha (he RAN OFF and he is planning on DESTROYING IT, but don't worry pain already took care of that -.-). he almost killed naruto, and sakura is not stupid. in fact, she's very bright - she's just had her eyes shut for a long time. she'll know what Sasuke did was wrong, and she won't hurt naruto.

again only my opinion 
if i will speak truth the reason why i'm kinda rude is that i'm pissed off, too many naruhina fans are turned on forums now and a lot of narusaku gave up just because 3 words I LOVE YOU! everywhere i go naruhina 
crap -.-


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## Black Flicka (Apr 16, 2009)

i don't think you guys kinda get what i'm saying. or you didn't read all of my posts. AGAIN i will try to prove sasusaku fans they ARE WRONG. jesus christ you really DO give me a headache.... (everyone besides narusaku fans )

Chapter 172 page 13

sakura looked at naruto when he emerged, cheerfully telling her sasuke would be fine. she gave him a grateful smile, which is also clearly shown in the anime. (now yea sakura hugged sasuke and etc. but...) after the hug, she didn't have a chance to say anything to naruto because he had already left - the focus of the scene was on him feeling sad sakura may not hug him in that way. even tsunade noticed his reaction and remarked to herself that he was more sensitive than she thought. this also shows naruto has deep feelings for sakura.

Chapter 178, page 15-17

sakura BROKE a promise to sasuke in order to tell naruto about the curse seal. she was worried sick and wanted to confide in naruto. naruto told her sasuke would be fine BECAUSE he didn't want sakura to worry. if you look at the panels before he says sasuke will be OK, you see him looking at a worried sakura with a concerned look on his face. he didn't like seeing her worried.

Chapter 181, basically the whole thing

again, I ask you to look at the details and not just the big picture.  of course sakura didn't want sasuke to leave - she CARES for him. her statement proved that sasuke does not care for her as any more than a teammate/friend. because she thinks he hates her. she's tried to get closer to sasuke but has failed because he doesn't want to know her. this highlights how one-sided sasusaku is, and even sakura knows it. if you read carefully, you even notice how she has dropped the "kun" suffix at times, reflecting her wavering feelings.

she knew he was going to go to orochimaru, so she would have done anything to get him to stay and be safe. note, however, after sasuke continued to walk on after her offer to go with him, she did NOT run after him. instead, she threatened to scream out for the guards.

this shows sakura was smart enough to know that running off with sasuke would have been wrong. she wasn't willing to become a missing-nin for him. she just wanted him to stay in konoha, away from orochimaru.

now, if you look at sakura begging naruto to bring sasuke back - that shows he was the guy she trusted and believed in. she believes in him enough to think that he is the only one who can bring sasuke back. when he told her he understood (after looking hurt again), sakura was very shocked to hear that. you see her expression looking shocked, then pained as it sinks in. she realises he's always known (some readers say she realises about the day naruto henged as sasuke, others says she realises he always knew of her pain) and always helped her. she cries and tells him "Naruto... thank you." while naruto was walking away, she was just standing there in shock - seriously thinking about what she had just realised. she didn't even pay attention to lee.


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## mystic868 (Apr 16, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> *hinata's not even a main character but a side character and the anime rules state that there is little to no chance of a side character EVER getting with a main character except through fanfiction*. thus that also says that naruhina has about as much chance happening as a snail does beating a car in a race.


Well I think everything is possible even for side character to become main character(that is the thing only author can decide). However it's also true that making Hinata main character(or very important one) without bringing us more descriptions about herself will be not suitable for whole story. Sakura had many time to show us her real self, but even if we know a lot about her we can figure out that we don't know her also  Probably in the next few chapters as Black Flicka said we will at least get a little more info about Sakura feelings(we already know what Hinata feelings are), and what our poor MH will do about it


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Naruto risked his life fighting Gaara to protect Sakura and risked his life to bring Sasuke back just to make her happy.  Is that just a "simple crush"?



He fought to save Gaara, because he was like him, and he brought Sasuke back because he was his friend and considered him a brother. He was thinking about those things and pretty much nothing else during BOTH fights. Could it be that you people save time reading by watching the pretty drawings and ignoring the dialogs and inner monologues? 



> As for Hinata having feelings for him longer than Sakura, that's irrelevant.  I don't see how that makes Sakura's feelings any less meaningful.  At least, what Naruto had Sakura's respect, he _KNEW_ it!



Oh please... show me one instance in which Naruto seriously with an upright face admits to himself or others a feeling of LOVE not LIKE to Sakura.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 16, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> He fought to save Gaara, because he was like him, and he brought Sasuke back because he was his friend and considered him a brother. He was thinking about those things and pretty much nothing else during BOTH fights. Could it be that you people save time reading by watching the pretty drawings and ignoring the dialogs and inner monologues?


i don't think he meant shippuden.... -.-
did you watched episodes after chunin exam?! -.- 



maki0129 said:


> Oh please... show me one instance in which Naruto seriously with an upright face admits to himself or others a feeling of LOVE not LIKE to Sakura.


i think everybody knows that he never admited his love, but neither he did that for hinata or sasuke for sakura!
but some thing are pretty OBVIOUS!


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

First of all I did not ever in my life "watched" any episodes of anything in my life. I did however WATCH a lot of them. Care to tell my How do I shot web?

Second of all, I have the full series on my hard drive. Every Naruto episode, and every shippuuden episode. I've never seen any evidence of romance between Naruto and Sakura before the Time skip. I remember a lot of memories and inner monologue of him calling Sasuke a brother, I remember him thinking of how similar Gaara and him were during their fights. I don't remember him ever thinking first and foremost of Sakura during any of these instances...


*Spoiler*: __ 



And third, if we're gonna play the OBVIOUS GAME. OMFG's NUTS!! The eyes with which he saw Hinata after she confessed to him and the tears of joy he releases when he realizes she is still alive are such obvious signs that he loves her!!!




Seriously, let's not play the obvious game again, makes people look stupid.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 16, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> And third, if we're gonna play the OBVIOUS GAME. OMFG's NUTS!! The eyes with which he saw Hinata after she confessed to him and the tears of joy he releases when he realizes she is still alive are such obvious signs that he loves her!!!



did u ever thought he was crying because villagers were ok and not only hinata?! hinata happens to be the closest to him on the field so practically he would blow her up first.

and i think it's time to play obvious game again -.-
i rlly don't wanna write that much, oh well...

when we first see sakura, naruto thinks her name blushes and there is a little picture of a heart near his face. haruno sakura: a cute girl that I?m kinda interested in. apparently naruto can sense sakura cause the first time we see her plan to beat him up after the kiss, he sensed her. as whom naruto wants to be teamed up with, his first thought was sakura. naruto cheered when he found out that sakura was on his team. apparently sakura does the same cheer, but it was for sasuke. well we can tell in that part sakura and naruto did the same exact reactions except in different words.

when naruto takes sasuke?s appearance, sakura feels warm eyes on her when she notices sasuke/naruto. she feels as if sasuke/naruto is looking directly in her heart. sakura wonders off in a daydream, and thinks about sasuke telling her that she has a beautiful forehead and that he would like to kiss it. sasuke/naruto does in fact say those words to sakura (surprisingly, the exact same words) and admits that would be something naruto may say. so this shows they are almost thinking exactly alike. at the point naruto is about to kiss her, that moment, naruto thinks and I quote ?I feel like I finally understand why I like her.?

well after that incident of sasuke talking to sakura and telling her for the first time she is annoying, sakura does learn how it feels when she tells naruto that he is annoying, so they know that pain.

the kakashi prank! sakura actually likes those type of things naruto does but pretends not to, and also really liked the outcome of it, so did naruto.

hehe when she tells kakashi she dislikes naruto, naruto looks like he is crying a bit and feels hurt. he really likes her, which does hurt when she said something like that.

(I would like to say something here; Kakashi says, ?Girls at this point think more of love then Ninjutsu. think about what she is doing now since sasuke left.)

seems like naruto and sakura are the only ones who yell at kakashi for being late.
hmm, here is something interesting, for some sakura warns naruto that kakashi was behind him in the first training session where they have to past the test!
hmm, is that blush sakura has on her when naruto jumps on kakashi?s back?

she compliments naruto after that.

hmm, both fell for traps easily, naruto that rope trap, and sakura that genjutsu. sakura, didn?t even try to run to help sasuke, she just fainted.

well when kakashi said they don?t need to go back to the academy again, sakura and naruto cheered the same way, except naruto was tied to a stump, they both thought the same exact thing.

well when sakura offered naruto food, he seemed really happy about it.

after zabuza kicked naruto, sakura called at naruto in worry. seems that sakura does have some worry for naruto with out realizing it. (this nothing real big, don?t look to deep into it.)

here is one of everyone?s favorites ?What is this feeling? This is Naruto?? sakura thinks as she blushes.

sakura looks at naruto after kakashi says naruto is growing the fastest. I don?t know if that is blush on her cheeks, but she did agree with kakashi, by saying ?he does seem better then he used to be but?? which still shows she has doubts.

well, naruto announced that sakura is great and he has confidence in her after she climbed the tree.

looks like sakura blushed after naruto asked her for tips in climbing trees. 

(after sakura learns about why the bridge is so important she says in her mind ?Sasuke-kun? Naruto?? notice in the latest chapters she said naruto?s name before sasuke?s. a lot of change there.)

when naruto does his little trick of faking to fall off the tree, sakura was worried about him actually falling.

well in the beginning volumes, the author would usually explain some stuff about ninja?s, and the characters. In sakura?s info, he even admitted that sakura?s love for sasuke was selfish.

Well after naruto appears in the final fight with zabuza, sakura does cheer for him! looked like she was happy to see him that time. she is changing herself in a fast pace like naruto. her attitude towards things has been changing like naruto has. seriouse moments sakura and naruto don?t goof off as in sakura sucking up to sasuke, and naruto just trying to joke around. when time comes to be serous both forgot about those quails and put on their serous attitude.

well Sakura is thinking of naruto a bit more now, instead of just thinking sasuke can win haku, she thought sasuke and naruto can beat haku!

but this is just a begining 
i put every moment that has anything to do with naruto and sakura
there's more


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## mystic868 (Apr 16, 2009)

BTW it didn't like for me that she was crying at last manga episode, rather was happy and no tears were shown  
I mean Hinata


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## hmph (Apr 16, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> He fought to save Gaara, because he was like him, and he brought Sasuke back because he was his friend and considered him a brother. He was thinking about those things and pretty much nothing else during BOTH fights. Could it be that you people save time reading by watching the pretty drawings and ignoring the dialogs and inner monologues?



Just to jump in here for a moment but - if I cut you, would you bleed hypocrisy?

On Gaara's fight:
Naruto Chapter 247

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/131/15/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/131/17/


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/131/17/


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/131/17/


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/131/17/

Link removed

Shiro Higi - Jikki Chikamatsu no Shuu

Link removed

That entire fight was about which method is stronger - fighting for yourselves or fighting for others. Naruto's entire reason to do it was to save his friends. More specifically, Sakura.

Also, I have to say I find something funny. You say you saw nothing of NaruSaku in part 1, yet part one is full with Naruto saying he likes Sakura. This is obvious evidence for a pairing. Not only that, but you've acknowledge it in your arguments, that Naruto says he likes Sakura. Contradiction 
Anyways, if anyone actually thinks Naruto doesn't bring out the best in Sakura, just compare part 1 and part 2 Sakura.


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

WAit... so having faith in Naruto's combat abilities is the same loving him?

Oh, gawd... I think you proved SasuNaru to be canon!!

Again, the like that Naruto claims to have for Sakura is a not that different from a crush between 10 year olds.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 16, 2009)

oh crap, i rlly did wrote a lot
oh who cares i'm bored...  you are the ones who will have to read it 

well one point in the manga after the zabuza incident when they do another small mission yet again that we dont see, sakura is actually letting naruto use her as support to keep himself up.

sasuke says after that page, that sakura is the same as naruto.

well kohohamaru does the famous pinky thing, which means he thinks sakura is naruto?s girlfriend. hmm if you notice that, when people do see naruto and sakura for the first time, sometimes they do think they are boyfriend and girlfiend.

well sakura and naruto still keep agreeing that kakashi is way to late and they both complain about it.

and yet again they say the exact same thing at the exact same time to kakashi ?Yeah right, Liar, apologize!? basically is what they say at the same time and some how the same exact words.

hmm, in the second floor when the chuunnins had the genjutsu to trick the gennins, sakura actually said, ?Naruto, Sasuke, lets go.? naruto?s name came first. (nothing too big, just something I would like to point out)

after lee is caught by his sensei breaking a rule and they hug, naruto looks and tells sakura ?you know?that?s some good stuff.? mainly he wanted sakura to hug him.

after kabuto told everyone about his info cards and about lee and gaara, sakura saw naruto shaking. even thought she thought he was nervous, she for some reason found herself naturally wanting to make him feel better.

during the interrogation test, sakura keeps thinking of naruto and how she is worried about him knowing he could not answer these difficult questions. she made the decision to accept the fact if naruto raises his hand she won?t mind. this shows she really does care about him and will accept the fact that if he can?t do it, that they can try next time. she begins to think of the past of how naruto pledged to become hokage, that he would do anything no matter what it takes, she becomes more worried about naruto, she has sweat on her face, you can tell she is nervous about him.

in one thought during this, she thinks naruto is a fool trying to go for a dream he can not reach, but not just that, she says in her mind exactly ?I don?t want to see you crushed!!? sakura really developed feelings for naruto, her heart is changing with out her knowing. he had the best and greatest effect on her, and she is slowly changing because of it, but she is changing also the fastest out of all that naruto does change.

after orochimaru attacked team 7, sakura did not start crying until she saw dangling on the tree with the kunai as his only support. (too bad sasuke was closer, I think she would of even hugged naruto tightly if he was closer)

after sasuke woke up and defeated the sound nins, everything goes back to normal, and in naruto?s dream as he is knocked out he is dreaming of protecting sakura with a big smile on his face. he looks so happy, probably one of his top favorite dreams. (of course we all know his number one dream is becoming hokage and at the same time having sakura in his bedroom swimming in a giant bowl of ramen.)

naruto seemed to notice before sasuke, that something is wrong with sakura?s hair. (he pays a lot of attention to her in detail.)
naruto liked her hair longer, but I think he is still ok with how it looked. (seems as if naruto was the one who liked her hair longer, when she tried to impress sasuke with longer hair.)

sakura congratulates naruto after defeating the mist nins.

well, we begin this volume with the all famous, Heaven and Earth! naruto is earth; he has strength and stamina, but lacks brains and chakara control. sakura is heaven, smart and has perfect chakara control, but lacks strength and stamina. if you put the both together, you gain a perfect ninja. (they say that couples are a part of each other, they need each other to function, and so we can consider a single person only half of what is truly needed to be perfect. you need both half?s to complete the puzzle and sakura and naruto complete each other. i am sure you guys can find a better way of saying this then me.) ( i did notice somebody saying that sakura now has strenght and smartness so she doesn't need earth, she needs someone with both of it. i need to agree with that but i also have to say naruto has both of them to now  he grew up like we all saw in last episodes. not charging at enemies, now he tries to find a way of peace and forgivness. that kinda proves us he is smarter than most of ninjas )

when sakura tells sasuke to quit because of what orochimaru did to him, sakura begins to cry and it seems that naruto cares about this but is still way to confused to understand anything that is going on.

during the sakura VS ino fight, when sakura attacks, naruto thinks she ?Rules.?

when ino takes over sakura?s body, naruto notices something is wrong with sakura right away.

naruto cheers sakura on after ino takes over sakura?s mind.

after sakura pushes ino out of her, kakashi has a few thoughts, which I shall repeat. ?Once you are caught in that jutsu, it isn?t easy to push out the invader??
?Ino?s lack of chakara?that may be part of it but??
?Naruto?s cheer acted as a trigger to awaken that? and that defeated the jutsu.?
?That?s not even it??
?Sakura is the same as Naruto??
?Her inability to accept defeat is beyond the average person. But both can?t have very much chakara left??

after kakashi brings sakura upstairs, naruto runs to her and asks if she was ok. (she was knocked out so she couldn?t awnser.)

after sakura wakes up and walks next to naruto she talks to him and she worries about naruto again, she seems happy with him.

she admits that she could have not tied with ino if it wasn?t for him. (this shows that she needs him in a way)

when naruto goes to his fight with kiba, sakura cheers naruto on.

only sakura and kakashi know that naruto can take that hit. that is why they both smile knowing that attack did not affect naruto too much.

after that page sakura has her own thoughts. she thinks about how she thought naruto was a loser and how he would never make it to his dream but then she says in her mind
?I was wrong?.?
??Naruto?Tell Everyone??
?Don?t? Underestimate me!!?-(I don?t know if sakura is thinking this while naruto is saying this. I am pretty sure naruto says that line that finishes sakura?s thoughts.)

she then cheers naruto on again.

after biting kiba, sakura yells to naruto ?You?re Great!!! Naruto!!!?

after kiba hits naruto again, sakura still cheers him on.

after naruto farted on kiba?s face, sakura cheers him on again because naruto has an opening.

after naruto defeated kiba sakura says this ?Hell yeah!!! This feels Great!!!? (seeing naruto win a battle made her feel good.)

naruto offers to share his medical cream with sakura.

i have more don't worry 
my point is when i was 13 i didn't loved anyone. i likes some guys and etc.
but even a guys who did liked me didn't do things that naruto does
they did less andyou can't say they didn't had a chance to be worried or to be sad because i'm sad....
believe me they did and they didn't do anything
so my point in that age to act like that is far more than have a crush


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## Rinoa (Apr 16, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> while sakura does care deeply for sasuke, we haven't seen any solid reasons WHY she had her crush on him - asides from "Sasuke-kun's so cool!"


_I had to answer this above all because Sakura is my fave female character that i respect in addition to the look of the pairings.
Sakura, Naruto and Sasuke share a strong bond and during part1 Sakura  learned to know and accept Sasuke as he is beyond the "Sasuke's so cool".
Ignoring that is ignoring the strong ties that started to exist between Team7 and their development and acknowledgment during the part1 and also make Sakura's character looks so damn frivolous and futile.
When she told him that she loved him she already had passed the stage of "Sasuke-kun's so cool" and between Team7 members already had well developed stronger ties.
Ties that make Naruto and Sakura continue to want Sasuke back.
I am sure that Sakura does not continue to fight and cry to bring Sasuke back along with Naruto because he "looks cool".
So those are probably the same reasons that led her to experience feelings for him.Immature or not.Depending from personal point of views.
I can not ensure that these feelings remain till today-none of the big3 can ensure nothing at this point besides Hinata's feelings- but I am sure that when she made her confession was not only based on the appearance of Sasuke.



			she knew he was going to go to orochimaru, so she would have done anything to get him to stay and be safe.
		
Click to expand...

But Sakura was not going to lie and be hypocritical enough to say she loved him only for him to stay because she knew that Sasuke tried not create bonds and she's better than that.



			AGAIN i will try to prove sasusaku fans they ARE WRONG. jesus christ you really DO give me a headache.... (everyone besides narusaku fans )
		
Click to expand...

And fandoms + fans mentions should be avoid.
People debate the pairings here not the fans.
Just *butt in* to say this.
Keep your debating.
*off*_


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## Black Flicka (Apr 16, 2009)

after neji closes naruto?s chakara holes, sakura does become worried, she does have a sweat bead on her face and she thinks his name.

after neji attacks naruto again (after telling his story to naruto) sakura again has more sweat on her head and says naruto?s name in her head. she looks worried about him.

after naruto beat neji, sakura was so happy that naruto won, she cheered happily. seeing naruto achieve his goals seems to make sakura happy. to see him make it through a battle makes her excited.

sakura?s thoughts ?Naruto is getting Stronger and Stronger?.? she smiles
?Sigh,? she says and then she thinks, ?I?m kind of jealous of you??
more of sakura?s thoughts in the next page are ?When I watch you fight, I feel like I have to try harder. That?s an incredible thing.

ino notices something is wrong with sakura after she thinks that. sakura looks happy

during the chuunnin exam, at sasuke?s battle, you can clearly see, that sakura is not cheering for sasuke, and if I recall she never cheered for sasuke in his matches such as when he fought in the preliminaries also. she doesn?t even look excited or happy even after being happy the fact that sasuke?s seal has been semi sealed. the fight doesn?t really affect her, it seems it is just like another interesting fight.

naruto and sakura caught up with sasuke, but when gaara attempts to attack sasuke and sakura blocks, naruto yells her name in worry and fear for her.

sakura is caught and naruto yells her name again in worry.

sakura calls naruto?s name while she is being strangled on the tree.

gaara hurts sakura more and naruto is shocked.

naruto is nervous after gaara hurt sakura more but he is angry, you can see it in his eyes.

naruto tells himself he has to save sakura after gaara attacks him.

after gaara releases his sand arm and tells naruto that it will get tighter and tighter until she dies, naruto seems to feel fear, anger, nervousness, and worry for sakura. he thinks her name in his mind ?Sakura-chan.?

when naruto thinks about his precious people, sakura asks if sasuke said anything about her, as usual sasuke says nothing, but naruto does have feelings for sakura and he would love to tell her. he looked as if he were hoping that she would let him tell her, he also looked really happy.

automatically gaara?s hand hurts sakura, naruto?s attention changes to her in worry and anger. 

gaara threatens to kill sakura, it angers naruto and he rushes into battle with only little thought.

sakura gets hurt again and naruto looks at her with worry and he thinks her name ?Sakura chan??
then he thinks of blowing up gaara?s ass. (this did in fact really hurt gaara good.)

even sasuke knows that naruto has to save sakura no matter what. he knows naruto can save her.

i conceder this part of naruto foreshadowing the future! naruto remembers haku and he remembers this saying 
?Do you have someone??
??. Who is special to you??
??When you have something special that you want to protect??
?Only then you can become truly strong!!!?
I believe this was mainly hitting towards sakura. even though naruto says ?I will protect them no matter what!!? I really think it?s meant for sakura, because she is the only one that naruto needs to protect right now, but he also can be referring to future tense and now. right now he is doing this all for sakura all this true power that sasuke couldn?t believe naruto had, and yet naruto had it. he pulled this power for sakura I believe.

after naruto does his full power Kage Bunshin ninjutsu, it says to the left corner
?To protect someone important??
?Naruto becomes even more stronger!!?
I believe they were referring to him protecting sakura. (to protect sakura, naruto was able to pull so much chakara after doing so many kage bunshin ninjutsu?s with gaara. don?t forgot it was still the same day he fought with neji, so he could still have been exhausted from that. It?s amazing how he pulled all his chakara with neji, and pulled the kyubi?s chakara with neji, and now he is pulling out so much chakara even after it would seem he wasted it all. he did this for sakura! and that's far more harder than turn into 6th tailed and destroy everything around -.- not that i complain  i like kyuubi )

gaara transforms and sakura is once again hurt. naruto?s eyes change to kyubi?s eyes. He ran out of chakara also but I still think he used his chakara with a bit of the kyubi?s chakara. (usually he calls for the kyubi?s chaka when he wants it stable. so it could have been a mixture of both his and kyubi?s chakara. naruto claimed to run out, but to protect sakura, I believe he was able to pull out just enough to summon.)

naruto yells out in his mind
?I will protect Sakura chan!? he summons the frog boss.

after the summoning naruto finishes his thought sentence from ?I will protect Sakura chan!? to finishing it with this last thought,
?No matter what!!?

naruto yells at the toad boss where sakura is and told him to try to stay away from that side. (he is worried about sakura and doesn?t want to get her hurt anymore.)

even frog boss jr, believes that sakura is naruto?s girlfriend when he does the all famous pinky sign.

naruto really wants to save sakura, he tells that to the frog boss.

frog boss knows that naruto is out of chakara.
(would like to note, that the frog boss knows naruto is out of chakara, and naruto is still capable of moving so he can protect sakura.)

naruto is trapped in the sand and no one can help him. sakura wasn?t hurt this time but naruto looks back and he thinks of someone important,
?Sakura Chan!?

he looks at her and from a worried face he changes to pure anger!

naruto concentrates and he begins to beg the kyubi in thought,
?I?m beggin? you??
?All I need is a little bit?.?
?Give me??
?Enough so I can protect everyone?? (he is only protecting sakura, so I think that means she is everyone to him. hehe. just some thought into how important she is to him.)
?Your chakara!?

to protect sakura, naruto pulls out more chakara from the kyubi then he ever did in that point of time.

so much chakara he pulled out for sakura, it blew off his headband and opened his jacket.

naruto is crawling on the floor and he keeps moving, he tells gaara, if he tries to hurt anyone precious to him (mainly sakura) he will stop him.

after he explains that to gaara, gaara comes to one conclusion, that naruto fought for love. he also comes to believe that is why naruto is so strong; because he protected someone he loved.

sasuke tells naruto that sakura is now safe and naruto looks happy, he falls unconscious with a smile on his face. ( naruto wouldn?t of stopped, he would of kept going to kill gaara if necessary to save sakura. All he wanted was sakura to be safe.)

jiraiya tells naruto that they are going to find a girl and that he wants naruto to come with him. after convincing naruto to do so he runs to his house with these thoughts.
?Sasuke, Kakashi sensei, I will surprise you all.
?Sakura-Chan, maybe she?ll start to like me..!!?

sakura is by her window and she begins to think of a time where her, sasuke, naruto, and kakashi are on top of the roof and naruto wants to learn chidori from kakashi.

sakura?s face as she hears that naruto saved her changes into a surprised stunned face.
then she calms down and looks sorta happy and full of emotions. strang emotions that make her look cute. (cute in my opinion at least.)

she thinks of Naruto?s name ?Naruto??

she looks at naruto pathetically attempt the chidori and her expression changes from worried to being happy to be able to see him. it looks like she feels calm just seeing him work hard. (i bet if she could watch naruto train all day, watch him work so hard, it would make her feel so calm and relaxed that hole entire day.)

still not done 
just one more post
but i'm tired so i'll call the day off


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## mystic868 (Apr 16, 2009)

Black Flicka you can put that all into one big damn good essay 
Anyway you're giving very good arguments for NS. But I guess if both Naruto and Sakura are now Earth&Heaven so they could also remaine alone?  (I hope that didn't happen).


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

OK, really... people have got to stop thinking that when Naruto means "protecting everyone" he means "protecting Sakura". If I remember correctly, Sasuke, Shino and Shikamaru were all down there next to her. Maybe when he said "Protect everyone", he actually meant to include his friends too... Maybe he's a good person that way... MAYBE! Hell, JUST MAYBE he did intend to protect Sakura, I know I would kick the ass of anyone who touched my friends. But at no moment did it seem like he was fighting Gaara just for Sakura's sake...

Let's make a deal, you don't pretend he was fighting Gaara and Sasuke just for Sakura's sake and I won't pretend he was fighting Neji just for Hinata's. Let's stick with realistic facts around here... Hell, 10 manga chapters after that Naruto was ogling a girl with Jiraiya in the same fashion he ogled Sakura.


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## Hikui (Apr 16, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Again you are using wordplay to justify Red Herrings in Naruto, which I say once again, "There is none".
> 
> Red Herrings are *not* used to distract readers with pairings, they are tools to distract the reader / viewer of the truth of the plot. So unless it's a romantic story that revolves solely around a couple, red herrings isn't going to be involved in romances.



Let me try to be clearer. First I never said NaruSaku was the red herring and that Kishimoto is doing this, only that the term can be applied to the couple (and others). 

And I meant to use Red Herrings in treating a subplot alone, so when I'm saying that whatever relationship can be a red herring, I mean romantic red herring, not THIS IS THE ONLY RED HERRING THERE IS AND THAT'S THE ONLY MEANING. 

There, it's clear, I said it. Please don't misjudge/misunderstand. I was trying to debate your justification on why NaruSaku is not a red herring, not whether NaruSaku is a red herring. There's a difference. (I won't address the subject again).



Tyrannos said:


> Red Herrings is about people *guessing* and gossiping?
> 
> No, Red Herrings is a tool to distract the reader from the truth of the plot, and to keep them *guessing* until the truth of the plot is revealed.



There you said it. Red Herrings are to keep people guessing....if that created gossip or whatever, well then it's an extra (gossip sells, ha). 




Tyrannos said:


> Better, but all you did was cite the basic definition in emphasizing the "distracts" to justify your arguement.
> 
> But I know for a fact there is much more to that definition than that. I don't see it mentioning it being "distracts from the central plot". In which we all here know that Naruto's central plot isn't around romance.



Like I tried to say before, I'm not talking about all kinds of red herrings (as in romance in Naruto distracts us from action! ) but romantic red herrings, don't confuse. (As in, *insert pairing* is just leading us on and might end up platonic in the end, since pairings are all about interpretation there's lots of space for wrong assumptions-that even when your logic is good, your assumption might be mistaken and lead to false conclusion). 

Romance is a category apart just like Character development is different from plot development. Plot development might lead to character development but it isn't character development. 




Tyrannos said:


> Twists are sudden events in the middle of a story. So with Naruto pairings, having them come out the blue would've been true twists. Like if Sakura suddenly started going out with Sai. That would've been a twist. But since character's fondness for one another been long established, NS, NH, or SS can't be twists.



Have you heard of twist endings? There are lots of them around....
And people claimed Hinata's confession came out of the blue, so that's why I said that. It wasn't serious though. 



Tyrannos said:


> You realize your mixing up Western Literature with Japanese Manga.
> 
> Apples with Oranges!



Narrative devices and archetypes are *almost* the same in all kinds of literature because they're pre-established roles in our minds. 

Heroes, Anti-heroes, Villains (of all types), Good versus evil, etc. 
Themes might be different and the way they're treated, the way characters develop, the ethical point of view, etc....that's different (just like customs). 

In Japan, giving your life for something you love (person, ideal) is sort of like the ultimate sacrifice. Some Western people (trying not to generalize) claim that is suicide/stupid. :/



Tyrannos said:


> Well 1 famous writer doesn't jump all storytellers from 1% to 10%, unless you got like 1 out of 9 writers doing it.
> 
> Anyhow with Kishimoto, he long established how the story was going to end, so we have to see what he comes up with. But people need to remember that his interviews (like any mangaka's) are meant to be cryptic and illusive. Sometimes people see things when they were never the truth.



I'm not about to list all the famous romance authors there are, and all who use it. That's beside the point. 

I agreed on the second paragraph. 



Tyrannos said:


> No, Toriyama didn't show who Goku was going to be with in the beginning, which is rare with manga and anime.



By beginning I didn't necessarily meant the real beginning but early on. There was only one love interest to chose from, she sort of forced him to promise to marry her in the future, etc. 



Tyrannos said:


> Okay, I'll conceed on that. But you know that makes Hinata one too. <Cough> X Ray <Cough>



Yeah, all Naruto Characters are plot devices or use plot devices in some point, it is fantasy after all....



Tyrannos said:


> Well I still disagree that NaruSaku is the "Red Herring" for NH and SS, because some people don't view it seriously and they claim it has no significant moments.
> 
> For the sake of arguement, if NS was the Red Herring, then don't you think that those confessions would not have been so powerful? And how could NS be the red herring for pairings that didn't exist prior? Again that goes against the basic rules.
> 
> You can't hide something that doesn't yet exist.



I don't get this point, but I don't think we should debate about this. I'm not a fan of going in circles, and quite frankly....this is getting boring. No offense.


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## Renxx (Apr 16, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Now for Ren:
> 
> Maybe he is jealous of Naruto getting Sakura's attention.  I'm not to sure, though.



I don't see what else could it be, but, hey I'm biased, or so it seems.




Forlong said:


> Yeah, but Sakura didn't improove until Sasuke's life was in danger.  So...yeah...



But she did.



Forlong said:


> How do you know Naruto talking to her wasn't an attempt to cheer her up?  It didn't do the job, he might have been trying.  And trying to cheer her up does not mean Sasuke loves her.



attack Naruto shows he doesn't know what the heck it was all about.
It doesn't men he loves her (something I never said), but it sure shows who is more aware of Sakura's state.



Forlong said:


> One of the databooks said that Naruto was Hinata's on-off boyfriend.  Sounds like crap to me.



I don't recall any of that. I do remember they said Naruto and Hinata's relationship was an up and down love story or something like that. It probably wasn't that well translated, but I guess people were trying to dismiss Hinata's feelings as admiration and nothing else, so they said the databook was bullshit.



Forlong said:


> You seriously haven't seen it happen before?  Romantic relationships start out this way _a lot_.  Especially in manga!  I brought up Mara Jade, because her relationship with Luke Skywalker is the clearest case of it.  There's also Serina and Darien (Sailor Moon), Vageta and Bulma (Dragonball), probably a lot more I don't know about or can't remember.  Bringing up that she used to be mean to him means nothing.



Let's see if I understood what you just said: no matter how bad a girl treats a guy verbally or physically(and that guy doesn't fight back, which is even worse), they _always _have the possibility to end up together? Wow.
And Vegeta and Bulma? Seriously? If anything, that pairing resembles SasuSaku. But this is a tendency isn't it? I've seen a lot of people take other pairings from other manga/movies and use them as evidence that their favorite pairing will come true. That's just not how it is. You can't expect every creator to be un-original and follow someone else's trends.



Forlong said:


> That made no sense.



Geez, english is not my first language but I think that was clear enough. I'll repeat it: if Naruto's crush was taken more seriously throughout the manga (as in him actually _thinking_ about Sakura romanticly when she's not with him, actually showing some seriousness when he asks her out for dates, and if every time they spoke to each other about something deep it wasn't about Sasuke, and so on) I would think that NaruSaku _could_ have a chance (and if Sakura didn't treat him as she does sometimes). But that doesn't happen, so.



Forlong said:


> So he can't find any other women atractive?  And, since they aren't offically together, he's free to date whoever he feels like.



He is drooling.
When some NaruSaku fans say Naruto is so in *love* with Sakura, they really make it seem like there really is no one else on his mind, when in reality there is. Hey at least Sakura hasn't "drooled" over anyone else besides Sasuke (with Sai, if you count the yaoi scene  )



Forlong said:


> So...how does that disproove his feelings for Sakura?


Prooves he still has no idea about what she wants to hear and when.




Forlong said:


> You just disprooved your own statement by using the word "accidently".


He still did it, and invented a whole new insult for her.



Forlong said:


> Read chapters 3 & 4 of this manga!  Seriously, how can you say they have nothing in common?



Sasuke. That's the conclusion I reach when I read both chapters. They both wanna be acknowledged by Sasuke. How can that be oh so romantic that makes me think they truly belong together?



Forlong said:


> What the H-E-double "L" are you talking about?  Let's see she looks worried.



I was talking about this: she looks worried
She was more comprehensive with Tsunade than with Naruto she looks worried



Forlong said:


> You're saying she should have told him he nearly killed her?



She should have told him something about what happened. It was a missed chance for them to connect over something other than Sasuke.



Forlong said:


> They don't have to spend time alone together.  You said that Naruto could hang out with Hinata, Sakura, and Sai.  Well, that's not being alone with Hinata, so it would make NaruHina impossible, right?



I didn't say all of them together at once every time he had to be with Hinata. of course if naruto wants giver Hinata a chance, he'll spend time with her _alone_. He's not stupid. Just not every time.



Forlong said:


> Naruto risked his life fighting Gaara to protect Sakura



And Sasuke.
Sakura risked her life protecting Sasuke when Gaara charged at him. There was no one else on her mind there.
Sasuke was ready to risk his life to protect both Naruto and Sakura there too.



Forlong said:


> and risked his life to bring Sasuke back just to make her happy.



Not _just_ to make her happy. To make himself happy too. And Sasuke. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Promise or no promise, he would still bring back Sasuke with the same determination



Forlong said:


> Is that just a "simple crush"?



I see then. When it comes to Naruto, his feelings endure 3 years, but when it comes to Sakura, "she must have realized during that time that Sasuke wasn't worthy of her". 



Forlong said:


> As for Hinata having feelings for him longer than Sakura, that's irrelevant.  I don't see how that makes Sakura's feelings any less meaningful.  At least, what Naruto had Sakura's respect, he _KNEW_ it!



Hinata is the one who is sure about her feelings and isn't hiding anything. (so is Sakura, but I guess NS always know better). She is the one who has confessed. Now it's up to Naruto to decide what he'll do with the confession. But as I've said before, I really don't he's that fixated on Sakura to not consider someone else.


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## yupmai (Apr 16, 2009)

Sakura understands Sasuke, Hinata understands Naruto. Both these girls want to comfort this two. I see NaruHina happening. Because Hinata can take Naruto's brash nature and turn it into a powerful mature man. Sasuke has one bond precious to a girl whom he encouraged and protected(databook is shit) Sakura. Thats my two cents.


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

yupmai said:


> Sakura understands Sasuke, Hinata understands Naruto. Both these girls want to comfort this two. I see NaruHina happening. Because Hinata can take Naruto's brash nature and turn it into a powerful mature man. Sasuke has one bond precious to a girl whom he encouraged and protected(databook is shit) Sakura. Thats my two cents.


umm, sorry to screw your two cents but, didnt naruto mature alot more in shippuden? >.>' and another thing, sakura doesnt understand sasuke as much as naruto does, (refere to VOTE arc)and how did hinata ever understand naruto? the only thing she was doing was watching him from the bushes like once or twice only training. She hasnt even met sasuke, to understand or know how he feels on losing him. o .o


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

Yes, but he retains his brash nature...


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## Kei (Apr 16, 2009)

*HAHAAHAHA IIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMM BBBBBAAACCCCKKKK!!!!!*

OKay down to busniess(if u guys seriously get one me on spelling...that just a shame).. As in recent post I told u guys that Sakura was balance and Naruto isn't, where u guys comment back that Naruto is becoming balance and he much smarter then before...

Ummmm...Heaven deals with the mind period.... Lets count how many times Naruto went Kyuubi


Chapter 313
NS fans least Favorite, someone made a comment back in 48 or 49, which said *"Sakura brings the best out of Naruto...Like the 6 tails*.......Really...Really, She wasn't even their, he haven't even being thinking about her like that(get on my gammer and I kill u)...

Chapter 313

Ooooo r u going to say Sakura trigger this one?? The nine tails was trigger because of who..Orochimaru...does this make Oro/Naru a canon

So in short becuz I have to rush out is that NARUTO IS STILL NOT BALANCE....IF SAKURA SUPPOSE TO BE HIS OTHER HALF WHY CAN'T SHE CONTROL HIM WHEN HE IN KYUUUBI???

And if u dare pull up the running scene where she screams stop...I'll personally will trash u


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> Yes, but he retains his brash nature...


and naruto wanting to ask nagatos way of piece instead of beting the crap out of him first isnt maturity?


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

Yes, but he still hogs down a bowl of ramen in 3 seconds, speaks his mind without a care in the world and does things without first thinking of the consequences. Last time I checked, that was brash. You can be both, brash and mature...


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

Naruto's Hinata said:


> *HAHAAHAHA IIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMM BBBBBAAACCCCKKKK!!!!!*
> 
> OKay down to busniess(if u guys seriously get one me on spelling...that just a shame).. As in recent post I told u guys that Sakura was balance and Naruto isn't, where u guys comment back that Naruto is becoming balance and he much smarter then before...
> 
> ...


as i recall hinata cant even control kyuubi or seen him in kyuubi form or was ever near him when he was in kyuubi form. 


> NS fans least Favorite, someone made a comment back in 48 or 49, which said "Sakura brings the best out of Naruto...Like the 6 tails.......Really...Really, She wasn't even their, he haven't even being thinking about her like that(get on my gammer and I kill u)...


and wth? Yes she was, go to the next chapter. -_-''


> Ooooo r u going to say Sakura trigger this one?? The nine tails was trigger because of who..Orochimaru...does this make Oro/Naru a canon
> 
> So in short becuz I have to rush out is that NARUTO IS STILL NOT BALANCE....IF SAKURA SUPPOSE TO BE HIS OTHER HALF WHY CAN'T SHE CONTROL HIM WHEN HE IN KYUUUBI???
> 
> And if u dare pull up the running scene where she screams stop...I'll personally will trash u


She wasnt the trigger, but atleast she tried to stop him, and in 437, hinata wasnt the only trigger(Note: Konoha destruction,kakashi,jiraya,etc..), she was "The last straw" which made him go KN.


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> Yes, but he still hogs down a bowl of ramen in 3 seconds, speaks his mind without a care in the world and does things without first thinking of the consequences. Last time I checked, that was brash. You can be both, brash and mature...


Isnt that called personality? so what if he hogs down a bowl of ramen in 3 seconds, wouldnt you do that if you saw your favourite food on the table? and how was speaking his mind a bad thing, last time i checked it saved gaara when he yelled at grandma chiyo, sakura, and other people.


> You can be both, brash and mature...


I lol'd.


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## Erendhyl (Apr 16, 2009)

xVenomousrage said:


> Isnt that called personality? so what if he hogs down a bowl of ramen in 3 seconds, wouldnt you do that if you saw your favourite food on the table? and how was speaking his mind a bad thing, last time i checked it saved gaara when he yelled at grandma chiyo, sakura, and other people.



You're right--all those things are a part of Naruto's personality. And they are brash. There is a difference between being brash and being mature. Webster's Third New International Dictionary defines 'brash' as:

(definition 2) "prone to act in a headlong fashion; impetuous; foolhardy"

(definition 4a) "lacking in restraint or discernment; tactless"

(definition 4b) "shamelessly self-assertive"

(definition 4c) "lacking in refinement, polish, or finesse; coarse"

All of which, in my opinion, fit Naruto pretty well. He has definitely matured a great deal since the manga began, but he has retained some of the traits that made him Naruto in the beginning. This is one of them.

Naruto spoke his mind to Chiyo, and succeeded in saving Gaara. And Chiyo died. Naruto thought that she was just unconscious from overuse of chakra after using that technique; it wasn't until Kankuro told him of the jutsu's effects that he knew what the consequences of his action were. He spoke without thinking of or knowing the consequences of it... that fits under definition 2 pretty well.

Scarfing down three bowls of ramen the moment it hits the table seems to fall under what definition 4c describes as well. Naruto is a brash character, and he has been since the beginning of the series. Once again though, I would like to stress that this does not make him immature. As the recent manga chapters demonstrate, he is capable of dealing with incredibly high level adult concepts, yet at the same time, he also manages to carry some traces of the wild, out-of-control kid that he was at the beginning into the adult that he is today.


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> You're right--all those things are a part of Naruto's personality. And they are brash. There is a difference between being brash and being mature. Webster's Third New International Dictionary defines 'brash' as:
> 
> (definition 2) "prone to act in a headlong fashion; impetuous; foolhardy"
> 
> ...


I still lol. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



youre describing him as reckless. He is developing through out the manga, its true that he didnt realize chiyo sacrificed herself for gaara, but as the recent chapters shows he is Asking nagato way of peace, therefore thinking before acting, and had a good strategy of find him, neh? and since you are a naruhina(as i observe from your dp)didnt hinata fall in "love" with naruto because of what hes done, and doesnt mind the "brash" actions at all? >.>


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



And going alone to the enemy's lair without knowing exactly what lies in it doesn't seem reckless to you... HOW? Spending all his sage chakra in two rasen shurinken and betting it all on a much less effective technique, the rasengan, at a long distance that he might not get to clear doesn't seem reckless to you how? Hell, coming back to Konoha to face an enemy of unknown strength without even completing his Sage training doesn't seem reckless to you, how?

These act may be acts of maturity, but they were all poorly thought through and executed bluntly and aggressively without the minimum finesse.




Also, you're supposed to encase in spoiler anything that hasn't been animated in Shippuden.


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



 How can you not understand his reason in going alone? they might get in his way and probably end up killed. as how hinata in 437 stepped in she kinda got herself beat up and got in the way supports my point. And do you think naruto ever faced pain before? he didnt know how he fought until the middle of the fight, he had to take risks. end still ended up smashing him. and also, if you noticed that konoha kinda got destroyed, if he didnt come any sooner, who knows what would of happen, more deaths and destruction maybe? someone more than kakashi would of been killed. He took a risk and suceeded. As I think back Naruto questions the opponent before or during a fight.(Remember the zabuza arc? Gaara arc? VOTE? need I say more?)




my bad.


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## Erendhyl (Apr 16, 2009)

*Maki0129* already addressed the first part of your post, so I will only respond to the later bit.



xVenomousrage said:


> and since you are a naruhina(as i observe from your dp)didnt hinata fall in "love" with naruto because of what hes done, and doesnt mind the "brash" actions at all? >.>



Yes. Her reason for loving him was what he has done: he never gave up or accepted being a failure. He kept going, and that inspired Hinata. His "brash" actions have been shown to play a part in doing this, as seen in Hinata's preliminary match against Neji.

Oh yeah I do... (That page as well as the second and third of the next chapter.)

I fail to see how this is affected by what I posted before however, as I said that Naruto retains his brashness while at the same time growing into a more mature person.

Also, I prefer not to be referred to as "a NaruHina". It's a pairing I support, not a religion.


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## Milkshake (Apr 16, 2009)

Just coming in for brief suggestions -

Correction: Sasuke was the trigger to make Naruto go fourtails, just by Orochimaru talking as if Sasuke belonged to him for one or two panels, he began to get pissed off and turned four tails.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Correction: Hinata was 'the last straw' as Shikamaru says in the chapter for KN6. After seeing his villiage be destroyed, the villiagers he cared for, the teachers who he cherishes and other innoccent lives shattered in front of him like Hinata, he could no longer keep his anger in and released Kyuubi's chakra.




*Spoiler*: _ Heaven/Earth ; how it doesn't relate to pairings in general_ 



Iruka mentioned that Sakura had 'heaven' and lacked earth, the inablity to have physical strength in the human body, so he suggested that she work in the field and train harder.
Naruto had 'earth' and lacked heaven; the inablity to think with the human mind; so he then suggests that he gain knowledge (ninja knowhow) and prepare himself for missions.  
Sasuke had both.
If anyone can use this arguement, then I'd say Sakura + Naruto = Sasuke. 

The purpose of him saying this is for their shinobi skills (and that having both heaven & earth would helped them develop themselves as true 'Chunnin')  not god given affinities. In the beginning of Part II, Sakura shows her original abblity known of 'heaven' ; her already well-developed intellegence and her 'earth'; her new abblity to use her human body as a shinobi. Like Sasuke does, she now as both. Throughout Part II, Naruto has been gaining knowledge with situations, and can handle himself well in combat with his new found techniques. As he matures; he is getting wiser by the help of his teachers and by growing through tough life experiences. Kakashi has tought him a fair amount of shinobi knowledge of affilinities and learning to place a certain concentration in order to do things at a faster rate over the RasenShuriken/ Kakuzu-Hidan fight. With that, all three of Team 7's members have gained both Heaven and Earth stats, thus making them exceptional 'Chunin'. I don't believe there is any romantic connotation there for any pairings of T7.


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

I was refering to this post





> Sakura understands Sasuke, Hinata understands Naruto. Both these girls want to comfort this two. I see NaruHina happening. Because Hinata can take Naruto's brash nature and turn it into a powerful mature man. Sasuke has one bond precious to a girl whom he encouraged and protected(databook is shit) Sakura. Thats my two cents.





> Also, I prefer not to be referred to as "a NaruHina". It's a pairing I support, not a religion.


Im sorry i offended you in anyway.


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

> Just coming in for brief suggestions -
> 
> Correction: Sasuke was the trigger to make Naruto go fourtails, just by Orochimaru talking as if Sasuke belonged to him for one or two panels, he began to get pissed off and turned four tails.




*Spoiler*: __ 




Correction: Hinata was 'the last straw' as Shikamaru says in the chapter for KN6. After seeing his villiage be destroyed, the villiagers he cared for, the teachers who he cherishes and other innoccent lives shattered in front of him like Hinata, he could no longer keep his anger in and released Kyuubi's chakra.




Isnt that what I said? o .o


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

Uggghhhh... I UNDERSTAND his reasoning doing what he did. That doesn't make the action less reckless. He is reckless, impulsive and lacks finesse, he has made up for that by honing his instincts and his skills.

Seriously... though... And I mean REALLY. Is discussing pairings this painful EVERY day, or did I just catch you guys in a particularly bad one?

Have people here ever stopped to consider that debating which pairing is better might actually not be a good idea? I mean seriously, I'm starting to think this thread is the "Crossfire" of the Naruto fandom.


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> Uggghhhh... I UNDERSTAND his reasoning doing what he did. That doesn't make the action less reckless. He is reckless, impulsive and lacks finesse, he has made up for that by honing his instincts and his skills.
> 
> Seriously... though... And I mean REALLY. Is discussing pairings this painful EVERY day, or did I just catch you guys in a particularly bad one?
> 
> Have people here ever stopped to consider that debating which pairing is better might actually not be a good idea? I mean seriously, I'm starting to think this thread is the "Crossfire" of the Naruto fandom.


what he has done hasnt failed him, no matter how reckless it was. -_-''


and lol, read the other posts and see what its like. =P


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## maki0129 (Apr 16, 2009)

Reckless doesn't always mean stupid and doomed to failure. Sometimes a reckless action is the best action you can take. Some times a frontal attack is best to win the battle.


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 16, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> Reckless doesn't always mean stupid and doomed to failure. Sometimes a reckless action is the best action you can take. Some times a frontal attack is best to win the battle.


I thought you were describing his reckless ways in a bashing way, its hard to tell on the net.


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## Milkshake (Apr 16, 2009)

@Saasha 

Told ya I'd be back for more. :ho

*I didn't infer anything of the sort. *
_
I just didn't want you to neglect that stance; excuse me because I said I was inferring as well._

*Actually, as far as I can recall, he didnt explain himself to Naruto at all. Instead, he raged at him & told him that he doesn't understand what it means to have bonds & then lose them. Sakura is the only one he's ever tried to explain himself too as far as I can remember. *

_Throughout the whole VOTE fight; Sasuke was slipping bit by bit by thinking of his past memories with Itachi and his family and those from Konoha. He explained more during combat then to Sakura who was staring at his backside. Where do you think Sakura gets the "why don't you tell me anything?" from? Sasuke doesn't throughly explain his reasonings for almost anyone but during that battle with Naruto; he gives him much more than what he said to Sakura, explaining more on his past ambitions and it all tied to his new goal. "My dream is in the past, not in the future with my comrades"- Sasuke and esp. when he so called gets enraged with Naruto; 'you've never had a family! what the hell would you know? huh?' (or something around those words). He's implying that he's mad due to his loss of his family specifically. I won't get into it all, but Izzysozaki has a much better explanation to this in her rant. _

*You're being contradictory. Weren't you the one who said that they weren't friends; that he didn't consider her his friend, that she was just a teammate who he felt obligated to care for? I never claimed that Sasuke felt anything romantic towards Sakura back then.*

_Excuse me for saying that 'friends' and comrades weren't of a similar definition.
*Comrade*1. a person who shares in one's activities, occupation, etc.; companion, associate, or friend 
*Friend*
one of the definitions; a member of the same nation, party, etc. 

Does this fit Sasuke's stance of Sakura? I never said SASUKE DIDN'T CONSIDER A FRIEND; I said that THEIR BOND wasn't that of a 'functional friendship' (meaning little to nothing grew in the mutuality area that wasn't in combat)  but of something of a comradeship bond that was rooted from the fact that Sasuke was on T7 with Sakura, he felt obligated at times because of his ego and superiority complex and that she was much a weakling to rescue her out of danger, just like he did at times with Naruto. That doesn't set aside the fact that relationship did indeed grow into something that hung in Sasuke's and Sakura's emotional core; that Sasuke did indeed grow to have a bond with Sakura due to all the things she contributed to him in his time of need and that she became ' a good comrade/friend ' and with Sasuke's first target supposely being a loner/ avenger that's a great title to have, especially since he hasn't let any other female in quite the same.  

Just because Sasuke's half was 'good comradeship' doesn't mean it wasn't important to him; just not in a significance of let's say Naruto; but I suppose you get the jist of that because that's a whole different relationship you'd have to scope into. Each T7 member as a different meaning to Sasuke, but all important and to me; it's easiest to see the most significant due to it's more vivid development - Naruto/Sasuke. You have a right to disagree, but please explain more on why you'd think this way instead of just giving me opinion like most do._



*We're at an impasse here. Imo, the reason he couldn't turn back was because they were too important to him. His defection, in my eyes was a necessity, a necessity to protect them, to keep them away from the bloody mess that his past was, to fulfill his duty to his clan, to his brother & to himself, & to learn how to supress his curse seal, courtesy of orochimaru. He forced himself to sever his bonds with them, only to find out several hundred chapters later, that he never managed to do it at all. They still are his most important people to my knowledge.  *

_ Where do you get this from? Don't use the 'Sasuke left to protect them/ they were too important arguement' because Sasuke left out of own selfishness and greed for power to kill Itachi. The Sound Four had forced much anger and desperation for killing Itachi, which triggered his leaving to go to Orochimaru to get that power to tell him. 

Sasuke knows that leaving them caused him to be unhappy and he was fine with that; he was willing to sacrifise and utterly demolish those bonds to reach that goal. Their importance to him couldn't matter anymore if he wanted to reach that goal. Their bonds distracted him from that; so by saying that 'I'm different from you all, I can't be traveling the same path as you guys' he was inferring that he can't be traveling the same path due to the fact that he is a avenger, and that was now his goal. 

" Up until now, we've done everything as a group. But there is something else... I must do... " 
" Deep inside my heart, I've decided on revenge; For that reason ONLY, do I live..."
"I'll never be like you or Naruto"- Sasuke.

How is Sasuke not talking about his own selfish deeds, and screwing over the fact that they were of importance? They were different people with different goals; those in which those two can't be of because he has to do this ALONE. _



*Like I already said, her romantic feelings for Sasuke have already been established. Imo, It is you who needs to prove whether or not her romantic feelings have waned/lessened. Any lessening of romantic feelings for Sasuke & growth of romantic feelings for naruto have to be interpreted. That is all. My stance on this isn't going to change until Sakura reveals her real feelings in the next few chapters.*


Also, I don't know how to link panels, how do I do that? My memory pretty good though, so hopefully that'll suffice for now. You can always correct me if my memory proves faulty.

_ I don't mind the fact that since Sakura's feelings hardly are in the light anymore that you'd think that she'd still love Sasuke romantically, however you have to take in the fact that her feelings for Naruto are indeed changing; however I can't say how explicitedly because that hasn't been elaborated enough yet. That is why I'd call her relationship with both Sasuke and Naruto more ambigious than it is just precise with on Sakura's Prt I 'love' for Sasuke and Naruto's out of the question; as some would say. _

Of, course. They're worlds apart. When did I compare them?
Contradictory yourself my good friend ;
_


			
				You said:
			
		


			She's clearly desperate to save him whenever she has been focused on in regards to Sasuke. Naruto is the titular character, so obviously he will be focused on more. For example, just because Hinata's feelings weren't focused on doesn't mean she wasn't in love with him all this time right?
		
Click to expand...

 Comparing SasuSaku to NH._


*You dont know that she liked him because he was cute & popular. She didn;t even know he was popular when she first liked him. In fact, we don't know why it was that she was drawn to him.*

_ There is nothing you have to back that up. Sakura as a seven yr old girl declared to a bunch of kunoichi that she 'liked someone', and right away the fodder kunoichi inferred that it was 'Sasuke'. It is known in flashbacks that even back then Sasuke was popular and admired by the kunoichis in the academy. Sakura replies 'how did you know?' because obviously she wasn't aware that everyone else liked him too; even Ino. Also since Sakura was split up in divisions with the kunoichi and there is no flashbacks to show what she specifically seen in Sasuke; it is more efficient to say that she had a superficial crush on him due to the fact that she hardly knew him until she was in T7 meaning that she knew hardly anything else about him except the little rumours that went around that he liked long-haired girls, which proved her superficialness because she was willing to grow out her hair to gain his attention, because he was cool, smart, cute and popular.  _


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## Milkshake (Apr 16, 2009)

*Sasuke has only ever called her annoying twice, both times for significant reasons. The first one brought out positive development in Sakura. The second one actually drove the point home that he didn't forget their first interaction like he pretended to. Neither felt like 'backlashing one character's love for another.*
_ Right after Sakura got called annoyed she felt depressed and thought about how Naruto felt. So the life lession for today was ....? Treat others the way you want to be treated; she was talking about Naruto being unruly and annoying, and went too far about him not having parents, which related to Sasuke and irritated him and to say the least; "Your annoying" came up. How is this a life lesson? It's not because she still treats Naruto pretty harsly during Prt1.  After so, I never see her trying to train harder in anything other than her looks  If your going by positive influence you need to go with the Naruto direction.

The second time; I presume Sasuke didn't just say that to imply he remembered the past experience because like you said; Sasuke is brutally honest . 





			
				You said:
			
		


			that he can be brutally honest
		
Click to expand...

 Maybe he did but there was no way to distinguish this from his true opinion on her; which was that she was annoying. After so and the whole Sasuke depature experience; due to the encouragement from Naruto and Sasuke's departure; she begins to train.

_


*Not really, there have been other 'not NS' fan's who defend NS because they prefer that to SS. Hmm... maybe that's why you guys are so bad at it XD ( I kid)*

*You need to elaborate on what her 'own reasons' might be & how do they prove her lessesning romantic feelings for Sasuke. It isn't ambiguos enough for me, though it will be, if in the next chapters she reveals that she also feels something romantic for Naruto.

 Sakura's 'own reasons' = her bond with Sasuke, wanting to save him because he's precious to her. 


As for Naruto, not really, no, I really see nothing that seriously suggests that he's in love with Sakura. Crushes are easier to get over once they have a new focus.*

_ That's your opinion that I respect because as a Anti-NS; there isn't really much a serious romantic material for this pairing to seem COMPLETELY accurate; but to me there's more than the others of the Big 3 which is why I prefer it to the others. I think Kishi could've done numerous tactics to make this pairing have atleast a more clearer approach than it does now; but that's why I say that this pairing is ambigious as well. _


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## Tyrannos (Apr 17, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Let me try to be clearer. First I never said NaruSaku was the red herring and that Kishimoto is doing this, only that the term can be applied to the couple (and others).
> 
> And I meant to use Red Herrings in treating a subplot alone, so when I'm saying that whatever relationship can be a red herring, I mean romantic red herring, not THIS IS THE ONLY RED HERRING THERE IS AND THAT'S THE ONLY MEANING.
> 
> There, it's clear, I said it. Please don't misjudge/misunderstand. I was trying to debate your justification on why NaruSaku is not a red herring, not whether NaruSaku is a red herring. There's a difference. (I won't address the subject again).



No, I know you never said NS was RH.  But others do.   And they do that out of not understanding what RH really is.  All they see is "distraction from the truth" and go "that's it!", but it's not.

See people think RH is used to hide the truth in romantic plots, but they don't.  They hide the truth of the plot that surrounds the romantic plot.



Hikui said:


> There you said it. Red Herrings are to keep people guessing....if that created gossip or whatever, well then it's an extra (gossip sells, ha).



A+B =/= C you know.

Again you see "distraction" and equate that to pairings, but not the plot.  What benefit would Kishimoto have in having Naruto's affection for Sakura be a red herring all this time?  "Hey, Naruto is Hokage, got his acknowledgement.  But that girl he always loved, pfft, that was just a lie.  He ends up with a girl he hardly knew."

Don't that sound stupid to you?



Hikui said:


> Like I tried to say before, I'm not talking about all kinds of red herrings (as in romance in Naruto distracts us from action! ) but romantic red herrings, don't confuse. (As in, *insert pairing* is just leading us on and might end up platonic in the end, since pairings are all about interpretation there's lots of space for wrong assumptions-that even when your logic is good, your assumption might be mistaken and lead to false conclusion).
> 
> Romance is a category apart just like Character development is different from plot development. Plot development might lead to character development but it isn't character development.



But again it's not used in Naruto.   You don't know what's truely a Red Herring until the end, after the truth is revealed. People are just throwing around that term to justify their hatred of NaruSaku. 

And ever since the term was first used here in the debate, _nobody_ has yet to justify the use of Red Herring in the Naruto story.



Hikui said:


> Have you heard of twist endings? There are lots of them around....
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



You need to spoiler tag that.


Anyhow, once again you are throwing around terms to justify your beliefs.

Like Red Herring, why would Kishimoto throw in a twist ending of instead of ending up with Sakura, he ends up with Hinata?  "Hey, Naruto's always loved Sakura.  But you know what?  We will just throw him together with Hinata because she loves him."  

That my friend is _poor_ storytelling.  Because there is no justification for that.


Besides, seems you are seemingly using Western logic.   How many Shonen mangas or Shonen anime that you know that ended with such an ending? 



Hikui said:


> Narrative devices and archetypes are *almost* the same in all kinds of literature because they're pre-established roles in our minds.
> 
> Heroes, Anti-heroes, Villains (of all types), Good versus evil, etc.
> Themes might be different and the way they're treated, the way characters develop, the ethical point of view, etc....that's different (just like customs).
> ...



And yet nobody gives credit for Naruto saying "I'll save Sakura", when putting his life on the line in battling Gaara.   Which we all know that saying such thing is a very profounded and romantic thing to do in Japan.

But oh, the girls confessed to the guys they like, so that trumps the Title Character's feelings.  



Hikui said:


> I'm not about to list all the famous romance authors there are, and all who use it. That's beside the point.



I don't care about Western or Romance writers.   Our mindset needs to be on Mangas, not novels, literature tools, or western authors.

Japanese Authors are not the same as Western Authors.

Apples and Oranges



Hikui said:


> By beginning I didn't necessarily meant the real beginning but early on. There was only one love interest to chose from, she sort of forced him to promise to marry her in the future, etc.



Which doesn't mean Naruto is going to end up with Hinata.



Hikui said:


> Yeah, all Naruto Characters are plot devices or use plot devices in some point, it is fantasy after all....



Yep, people still get pissed when I say Hinata is a FOIL Character, which is very much the truth.   Which is one of many reasons why I don't see her ending up with Naruto.



Hikui said:


> I don't get this point, but I don't think we should debate about this. I'm not a fan of going in circles, and quite frankly....this is getting boring. No offense.



It's the way of the debate thread.  Circles is Life!  

I just hate it because I don't like spending hours rebuttaling.


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## Black Flicka (Apr 17, 2009)

i kinda saw that you guys are now mostly debating is naruto mature or not
it would be sad if he, now when he understands the pain, becomes serious and doesn't eat ramen "in 3 seconds"
i think we all like naruto who "isn't mature" but i think that's more who he is, what is his personality like
to be mature means to understand the consequences of your decisions
i would be happy if naruto is mature with the same personality
if he isn't we wouldn't have anything to laugh at...


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## Forlong (Apr 17, 2009)

maki0129 said:


> Oh please... show me one instance in which Naruto seriously with an upright face admits to himself or others a feeling of LOVE not LIKE to Sakura.


"I will protect Sakura-chan...no matter what!"



hmph said:


> Just to jump in here for a moment but - if I cut you, would you bleed hypocrisy?


Nice. 



Ren said:


> no matter what!" Naruto shows he doesn't know what the heck it was all about.
> It doesn't men he loves her (something I never said), but it sure shows who is more aware of Sakura's state.


Okay, but that doesn't negate all the times Naruto knew _exactly_ what was bugging Sakura. 



Ren said:


> I don't recall any of that. I do remember they said Naruto and Hinata's relationship was an up and down love story or something like that. It probably wasn't that well translated, but I guess people were trying to dismiss Hinata's feelings as admiration and nothing else, so they said the databook was bullshit.


I'm going to bet the translater didn't know jack crap.  Okay, I'll take back what I said.  It was the translation that was the problem.



Ren said:


> Let's see if I understood what you just said: no matter how bad a girl treats a guy verbally or physically(and that guy doesn't fight back, which is even worse), they _always _have the possibility to end up together? Wow.
> And Vegeta and Bulma? Seriously? If anything, that pairing resembles SasuSaku. But this is a tendency isn't it? I've seen a lot of people take other pairings from other manga/movies and use them as evidence that their favorite pairing will come true. That's just not how it is. You can't expect every creator to be un-original and follow someone else's trends.


There was someone else that brought up pairings from other forms of fiction to proove NaruHina.  And, wow, no one said anything.  But, once I defend NaruSaku with the same method, it's totally unreasonable. 
Ever heard of a "Tsundere"?  That's a Japanese fetish.  And...oh, Kishimoto-sensei is _Japanese_.



Ren said:


> Geez, english is not my first language but I think that was clear enough. I'll repeat it: if Naruto's crush was taken more seriously throughout the manga (as in him actually _thinking_ about Sakura romanticly when she's not with him, actually showing some seriousness when he asks her out for dates, and if every time they spoke to each other about something deep it wasn't about Sasuke, and so on) I would think that NaruSaku _could_ have a chance (and if Sakura didn't treat him as she does sometimes). But that doesn't happen, so.


Wait, you don't think Naruto was serious when he asked Sakura out?  I don't even think I want to bother.
Naruto took his feelings for Sakura seriously!  He risked his life to protect her and promised to "protect her no matter what".  Good enough for you?  Of course not!  Because he said that about Sakura, not Hinata.



Ren said:


> When some NaruSaku fans say Naruto is so in *love* with Sakura, they really make it seem like there really is no one else on his mind, when in reality there is.


I'm not one of those.



Ren said:


> Prooves he still has no idea about what she wants to hear and when.


And that means their relationship is impossible!  How couldn't I have seen that sooner? 



Ren said:


> He still did it, and invented a whole new insult for her.


I don't follow your logic.  He suspected Sai of insulting her, and said something he thought Sai said.  How does that act as a sign that he doesn't feel "that way" about Sakura?



Ren said:


> Sasuke. That's the conclusion I reach when I read both chapters. They both wanna be acknowledged by Sasuke. How can that be oh so romantic that makes me think they truly belong together?


Er..._WHAT!?_  So, they both like pranks because of Sasuke?  They both are impatient because of Sasuke?  They both understand what it feels like not to have friends because of Sasuke?   I think my I.Q. dropped from just reading that.



Ren said:


> I was talking about this: Link removed
> She was more comprehensive with Tsunade than with Naruto Link removed


Okay, please actually _READ_ the manga!  This is when Naruto is told Jiraiya is dead!  This the first thing Sakura says to him afterwards.  Just so you know, that's like a minute after he found out.  This thing you linked happened a while later over something completely different.



Ren said:


> She should have told him something about what happened. It was a missed chance for them to connect over something other than Sasuke.


I'm not justifying what she did.  I'm just saying it's not proof that she doesn't love Naruto.  Just the opposit, in fact.  She knows he'd never be able to forgive himself for hurting her.  She didn't want to put him through that pain.  Hasn't he been through enough crap already?  I'd bet money I _don't_ have that, if she did tell him, you'd be going on about what a horid bi*%& she is.



Ren said:


> And Sasuke.
> Sakura risked her life protecting Sasuke when Gaara charged at him. There was no one else on her mind there.
> Sasuke was ready to risk his life to protect both Naruto and Sakura there too.


Read it!  See Gaara saying "_she_ will die".  Not talking 'bout Sasuke there.



Ren said:


> Not _just_ to make her happy. To make himself happy too. And Sasuke. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Promise or no promise, he would still bring back Sasuke with the same determination


That's part 2.  At first, he only wanted to bring Sasuke back for Sakura's sake.  After the failed attempt, he wanted to for other reasons.



Ren said:


> I see then. When it comes to Naruto, his feelings endure 3 years, but when it comes to Sakura, "she must have realized during that time that Sasuke wasn't worthy of her".


Let's break-down both relationships:
*Naruto/Sakura*
Sakura is mean to Naruto at first, but grows to admire him.  Just before the time skip, they are good friends.  Naruto has no _reason_ to let go of his feelings for her.
*Sasuke/Sakura*
Sasuke was nice to Sakura _maybe_ twice.  She's had three years to think about the fact that she gave him her heart and he treated her like crap.  You can say "love is blind" all you want.  But Sakura isn't stupid.  Sasuke doesn't deserve her love.  I'd be seriously shocked, if she still loved Sasuke.



Ren said:


> Hinata is the one who is sure about her feelings and isn't hiding anything. (so is Sakura, but I guess NS always know better). She is the one who has confessed. Now it's up to Naruto to decide what he'll do with the confession. But as I've said before, I really don't he's that fixated on Sakura to not consider someone else.


True.  But don't count your chickens before they hatch.  We've got at least 100 more chapters before this wraps up.  The romance isn't going to be settled until then.  That means there's going to be _something_ stopping NaruHina from happenning right away.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> Ummmm...Heaven deals with the mind period.... Lets count how many times Naruto went Kyuubi


He thought Hinata died in front of him.  Of course, he was going to lose it.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> Senei: Jyashu
> NS fans least Favorite, someone made a comment back in 48 or 49, which said *"Sakura brings the best out of Naruto...Like the 6 tails*


*

I was reffering to Hinata. *


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## Kei (Apr 17, 2009)

xVenomousrage said:


> as i recall hinata cant even control kyuubi or seen him in kyuubi form or was ever near him when he was in kyuubi form.
> 
> and wth? Yes she was, go to the next chapter. -_-''
> 
> She wasnt the trigger, but atleast she tried to stop him, and in 437, hinata wasnt the only trigger(Note: Konoha destruction,kakashi,jiraya,etc..), she was "The last straw" which made him go KN.



ooo...i didn't say Hinata can control Naruto...i hate the theme of "[insert character here]  is the only one that can control Naruto"..And if i did say that please show me by bolding my words. If u talk about that being a scene um lets see: Let see before she rushed in to save him

Sharingan sees Chakra in the ground.

"It can't be controlled..." 

Sakura even knows that she can't control Naruto in this form, so thsi bashes the thing of "[insert character here] can control Naruto" Unless Sakura can magically stop Naruto dead in his track when he go Kyuubi...THEN...AND ONLY THEN WILL MY FAITH BE WAVERED..( not saying...I will give up on my NH)

emphasize

Next is this one, Kabuto mention that, "He must want ot save Sasuke pretty badly to end up like that.."
Flashback time...

Sakura goes all the way back when Naruto made that promise of a life time, "Don't worry Sakura, I'll bring Sasuke!", "I won't give up...Thats my Ninja way!!"

K, she is remembering what he told her, she thinks that he been doing this all along, with no help, and Kabuto who keep pushing her buttons says "He's not even concusions right now...What a sad kid."
This does it for Sakura and she rushes to save him, or anything else that she could do

emphasize "THe so called rush of Love"

She runnin towards him screaming "I'LL SAVE SASUKE FOR YOU..THAT ENOUGH YOU DON'T NEED TOO-----"

And she stops there becuz KN4 slaps her away...Um kay let me start, First off she didn't finsh her sentence, but I bet you know where she going with this, she doesn't want him to push himself any further for her, She wants to be helpful by helping him save Sasuke...

*She wants him to know that he isn;t alone...She wants to save Sasuke too*

Sasuke...Even though u eat me out sayin, "Sasuke is irrvelant to this discussion".But still even though she saw what was coming, she knew that Naruto went this far for Sasuke, so why couldn't she do the same?

She wanted to be helpful...That why she trained, 

To be helpful somehow...to Naruto...to Sasuke...*To her team*
That Sakura nindo..just to be helpful any way she can..And to see Naruto pushing himself to KN4, and Kabuto constantly pushing her buttons saying how he doing this alone.."

What else u can do, to know that the only thing u really can do is watch ur best friend destroy himself...HELLZ I EVEN RUSH IN TO STOP HIM..

SHE RUSHED IN TO HELP HIM...NOT BECUZ SHE LOVES HIM..

NS fans...Don't u say Sakura is confused about her feelings??


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## xVenomousrage (Apr 17, 2009)

Naruto's Hinata said:


> ooo...i didn't say Hinata can control Naruto...i hate the theme of "[insert character here]  is the only one that can control Naruto"..And if i did say that please show me by bolding my words. If u talk about that being a scene um lets see: Let see before she rushed in to save him
> 
> Sharingan sees Chakra in the ground.
> 
> ...


I lol'd.
I never said that she can control him, i only said that she can atleast try to stop it. im not even a NS fan and im defending her. -_-
Lol rush of love? hasnt anyone thought that she was trying to stop him from going more berserk?


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## Renxx (Apr 17, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Okay, but that doesn't negate all the times Naruto knew _exactly_ what was bugging Sakura.



Which were...?




> There was someone else that brought up pairings from other forms of fiction to proove NaruHina.  And, wow, no one said anything.  But, once I defend NaruSaku with the same method, it's totally unreasonable.
> Ever heard of a "Tsundere"?  That's a Japanese fetish.  And...oh, Kishimoto-sensei is _Japanese_.


I never brought any other pairing from other fiction up, so maybe you should do the same (don't wanna sound rude).
Tsundere? Let's see: *Tsundere* is a japanese word for a character architype which describes a person with a conceited, spiky, combative personality that suddenly becomes modest and loving when triggered by some sort of cause (such as being alone with someone). It can also describe a personality that is good-willed, but its attitude and actions often contradict its nature.
Let's compare that with Sakura:
conceited, spiky, combative personality, check. 
Suddenly becomes modest and loving when triggered by some sort of cause, not really applying to NaruSaku, since she is not modest _or _loving towards Naruto (see insults, lied to him once that I remember, feeding scene was because of a Sasuke-related flashback), and he's pretty much the only person she insults, so not checked.
Attitude and actions that often contradict its nature: uh, no. Everytime she yells at Naruto or says no to one of his dates, we _never _see her regretting that.



> Wait, you don't think Naruto was serious when he asked Sakura out?  I don't even think I want to bother.


Thats EXACTLY what happened... (*hint**hint*, it's in his expression!)
Thats EXACTLY what happened...
Taken from here (even Sakura's more serious here than Naruto here)
I forgot this one: Thats EXACTLY what happened... (he's even lying here. He was thinking about Sasuke, not a date.)
Yeah, I wonder why I don't take them seriously.



> And that means their relationship is impossible!  How couldn't I have seen that sooner?


  Have you actually read any of my other arguments against the pairing? Obviously this and everything else combined does not make a good relationship, actually far from the fan-portrayed "healthy" one.




> I don't follow your logic.  He suspected Sai of insulting her, and said something he thought Sai said.  How does that act as a sign that he doesn't feel "that way" about Sakura?


Because he came up with an insult on his own, just like Sakura said.




> Er..._WHAT!?_  So, they both like pranks because of Sasuke?  They both are impatient because of Sasuke?  They both understand what it feels like not to have friends because of Sasuke?   I think my I.Q. dropped from just reading that.


Naruto realizes why he likes Sakura so much: because she wants to be acknowledged by Sasuke.
And funny thing is: Sakura from the begining of the series isn't liked by NS fans because she was a fangirl. But when it comes to her liking pranks (which she doesn't now), she is _likeable_ because that's so _Naruto_, and they're so much alike!
And say what? They both understand what it feels like not to have friends? Where is that shown in those 2 chapters? Sakura didn't go through that half as much as Naruto. Sakura became friends with Ino quickly when she was 6/7, while Naruto, the first real friend he had was probably Iruka or Sasuke, when the series began.




> Okay, please actually _READ_ the manga!  This is when Naruto is told Jiraiya is dead!  This the first thing Sakura says to him afterwards.  Just so you know, that's like a minute after he found out.  This thing you linked happened a while later over something completely different.


She obeys Tsunade, and the next time they interact she was harsh to him over something different, but was still related to Jiraiya. Another time when Sakura wasn't really aware of Naruto's state. 
And why the heck wouldn't she worry about him? They're friends! You worry about your friends don't you? I'm just saying that her worry over Naruto didn't seem as strong as over Tsunade. Her expression when she was talking to Shikamaru...



> I'm not justifying what she did.  I'm just saying it's not proof that she doesn't love Naruto.  Just the opposit, in fact.  She knows he'd never be able to forgive himself for hurting her.  She didn't want to put him through that pain.  Hasn't he been through enough crap already?  I'd bet money I _don't_ have that, if she did tell him, you'd be going on about what a horid bi*%& she is.


He ended up knowing from Yamato, and I don't remember him being that disturbed over it. I don't think he apologized or anything either. True, though, that hurting Sakura was his wake up call that he shouldn't rely on the Kyuubi's power, but if he had hurt any one else, he would still try to supress the kyuubi's powers, so it really doesn't mean she's irreplaceable there. 
And I like honesty. I prefer to hear what someone has to tell me right away than not telling me. So don't risk your non-existant money.



> Read it!  See Gaara saying "_she_ will die".  Not talking 'bout Sasuke there


Deidara concluding he shouldn't fight Sasuke up close and personal.



> That's part 2.  At first, he only wanted to bring Sasuke back for Sakura's sake.  After the failed attempt, he wanted to for other reasons.


Start from here: Taken from here
not just for Sakura.



> Let's break-down both relationships:
> *Naruto/Sakura*
> Sakura is mean to Naruto at first, but grows to admire him.  Just before the time skip, they are good friends.  Naruto has no _reason_ to let go of his feelings for her.


*She still is mean to him when it comes to romance. Even after the timeskip.

*


> *Sasuke/Sakura*
> Sasuke was nice to Sakura _maybe_ twice.  She's had three years to think about the fact that she gave him her heart and he treated her like crap.  You can say "love is blind" all you want.  But Sakura isn't stupid.  Sasuke doesn't deserve her love.  I'd be seriously shocked, if she still loved Sasuke.


Shocked? Really?
Even with these: 





> Read it!
> From
> 
> 
> ...


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## Black Flicka (Apr 18, 2009)

what if all that never happens?
what if naruto doesn't need to choose just yet between sakura and hinata?
what if he leaves on a training or something after he defeats pein?
he needs to be prepared for madara and maybe that will result in more training
and we still dont know is there more pieces of sharingan that aren't revealed to us yet
my thinking is that last part of sharingan will result in both persons dead 
and just when naruto is suposed to die sasuke will sacrifice himself or something
but that's just my theory


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## Kage (Apr 18, 2009)

Ren said:


> [/B]Shocked? Really?
> Even with these: Link removed
> From Link removed until the end of the chapter. Sure seems like her determination to bring him back is as high as ever.
> Link removed And she doesn't rest until she gets information out of Sasori.The chapter is even called violent determination. And she really is way more determined then she was in part 1.
> ...


soo..._none_ of that is about wanting sasuke safe and home or wanting to help naruto by getting stronger _together_?  i'm not even going to address what was in the tags -_-

tru lubs ftw. kishi's teasing with all this SS alright 

and no kishi _doesn't_ know it's a big part of the fanbase because if he were going to pay attention to the biggest pairing fandoms in naruto in _japan where he lives_ _sasusaku_ is *not* what he's going to find.

that point is moot and the fact that you think kishi would cater to SS fans just cause they're the majority doesn't give your 'proof' much creditability besides the fact that none of it is explicitly romantic in the first place. 

sakura could very well still be 'in love' with sasuke but nothing post-time skip indicates that is her sole motivation for any of her reactions to him. 



> We don't have to _see_ them interact that way a lot (like Asuma and Kurenai for example). Just once or twice between missions and I think we get the picture, since this isn't a shoujo.


and this is what will make lack of panel time/development okay.


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## Peter (Apr 18, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> what if all that never happens?
> what if naruto doesn't need to choose just yet between sakura and hinata?
> what if he leaves on a training or something after he defeats pein?
> he needs to be prepared for madara and maybe that will result in more training
> ...



Well, he _will_ have to 'choose' eventually. Even if he went off on another training trip (which I highly doubt he will) he'll have to confront Hinata and Sakura sometime or another. 

Though, I do think Sasuke sacrificing himself is possible, and it would be pretty dramatic part of the story, but anyways, he can always train at Konoha (once it's rebuilt, anyways), plus he has to help out with the rebuilding of Konoha.


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## Renxx (Apr 18, 2009)

kageneko said:


> soo..._none_ of that is about wanting sasuke safe and home or wanting to help naruto by getting stronger _together_?  i'm not even going to address what was in the tags -_-



You're seriously missing my point, and I'm really tired of pointing out the obvious all the time.
What was in the tags was an opinion. I could care less if you address it or not.



kageneko said:


> and no kishi _doesn't_ know it's a big part of the fanbase because if he were going to pay attention to the biggest pairing fandoms in naruto in _japan where he lives_ _sasusaku_ is *not* what he's going to find.



Heterosexual pairings. Not homosexual. And yes, SS is still more popular than NS and NH.
The "Thank you" scene was voted the most dramatic in part 1. How could that not tell him something about the fanbase?



kageneko said:


> that point is moot and the fact that you think kishi would cater to SS fans just cause they're the majority doesn't give your 'proof' much creditability besides the fact that none of it is explicitly romantic in the first place.



Yeah, her confession in part 1 wasn't really explicitly romantic and despite she actually being more determined _now _in part 2 than she was in part 1 to bring him back, that totally doesn't hint that her feelings are still there, if not stronger!  SO we need another confession where she is ready to sacrifice her life for him _again_ just to be sure!



kageneko said:


> sakura could very well still be 'in love' with sasuke but nothing post-time skip indicates that is her sole motivation for any of her reactions to him.



I liked the way you said she was *'*in-love*'* with Sasuke. Once again, the feelings that she prooved she had in part 1 get dismissed. You obviously sacrifice your life to protect a crush.
And of course it isn't her sole reason. She is also trying to bring him back to restore her Team, and Naruto's bond with Sasuke.
I don't like to use parallels, but the Tsunade/Sakura actually works here: Tsunade wanted to protect both Dan and Nawaki, her lover and her brother. Nawaki is a lot like Naruto both physically and emotionally, just like Tsunade remarked. Sakura in part 2, says she wants to protect both Sasuke and Naruto. Figure it out.



kageneko said:


> and this is what will make lack of panel time/development okay.



As long as those times are actually meaningful, clearly romantic (not vaguely romantic) and show development. But like Black Flicka said, something might happen after 
*Spoiler*: __ 



fighting Nagato


 that prevents Naruto from choosing, like 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Sasuke and co. arriving


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## Kage (Apr 18, 2009)

Ren said:


> You're seriously missing my point, and I'm really tired of pointing out the obvious all the time.
> What was in the tags was an opinion. I could care less if you address it or not.



if by "point" you mean _still so madly in love_ then yes i suppose i did 

and that's why i didn't bother to address it so get the stick out of your ass plz.



> Heterosexual pairings. Not homosexual. And yes, SS is still more popular than NS and NH.
> The "Thank you" scene was voted the most dramatic in part 1. How could that not tell him something about the fanbase?



still matters very little in japan.
voted most dramatic? by _who?_ and how is this suppose to make kishi care bout sasusaku again?

just look at the most popular characters polls


*Spoiler*: __ 



a good number of them are dead. kishi was sure thinking of the people 






> Yeah, her confession in part 1 wasn't really explicitly romantic and despite she actually being more determined _now _in part 2 than she was in part 1 to bring him back, that totally doesn't hint that her feelings are still there, if not stronger!  SO we need another confession where she is ready to sacrifice her life for him _again_ just to be sure!



yeah like omg her confession was so not romantic, just like it was so not selfish and so effective. and her determination in part 2 is clearly all about wanting sasuke to return to her side cause she never got over him. it really does have nothing to do with bringing him home safe or protecting him and naruto like she says so herself every time it's mentioned.

sacrifice her life for him _again_? do you mean being willing to join him in sound? the same offer she reneged when he refused? 

we don't need confirmation of such a noble sacrificial love over and over again do we? cause sakura is still the same girl who depended on others and never did anything herself!




> I liked the way you said she was *'*in-love*'* with Sasuke. Once again, the feelings that she prooved she had in part 1 get dismissed. You obviously sacrifice your life to protect a crush.


excuse me for being a _little_ skeptical about a love that originated from a shallow crush and never developed into something more meaningful romantic wise. and what i mean by that is she never had a good reason to fall in love with him considering he was distant and curt with her, she didn't understand anything about him and she herself admits that he never talked to her and acted like he hated her. that doesn't prove anything you're implying about her love. i don't doubt that she cared for him that much is evident.

and she didn't...ah hell think whatever you want 



> And of course it isn't her sole reason. She is also trying to bring him back to restore her Team, and Naruto's bond with Sasuke.
> I don't like to use parallels, but the Tsunade/Sakura actually works here: Tsunade wanted to protect both Dan and Nawaki, her lover and her brother. Nawaki is a lot like Naruto both physically and emotionally, just like Tsunade remarked. Sakura in part 2, says she wants to protect both Sasuke and Naruto. Figure it out.


what? so sasuke's _Dan_  no matter how many times i hear that it never gets old. Dan and Sasuke are so similar it's scary. not to mention the fact that Tsu/Dan were in an *actual romantic relationship* and sasusaku... *is not!*



> As long as those times are actually meaningful, clearly romantic (not vaguely romantic) and show development. But like Black Flicka said, something might happen after
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



clearly romantic...yes...so the few times it does occur it's developed and clearly romantic on just one end...couple hundred chapters of nothing later...so when it comes together...still just on one end...the other just kinda goes with it cause this isn't a shojo...makes perfect sense. no really, it does


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## Afalstein (Apr 18, 2009)

Yo. 

I'm new here and everything, and I can't pretend to know much about the series, I just got interested in it a month ago and have been digging up everything I could possibly find on the internet.  

I must confess I'm a little surprised by this thread.   I'm surprised it exists, because most fandoms just put the separate ships into separate threads and just content themselves with occasional stabs at the other thread.  

But I did really want to discuss this issue, and I should at least give my two cents to relieve my own mind.

Again, I haven't seen the whole series, so I can't bring up specific examples of everything.  I'll stick with what I know.  Hinata's been obsessed with Naruto since day One.  Okay.  Sakura was obsessed with Sasuke.  Okay.  Naruto was obsessed with Sakura.  Okay.  Sasuke is currently an evil megalomaniac who both Naruto and Sakura are working together to save.  Okay.  Sakura happens to be a more central figure than Hinata.

Those are facts.  None of them prove anything inherently.  Into that we drop Hinata's confession (which, I believe, was what prompted this thread initially).  Granted, I'm not up to speed on how Naruto and Sakura have completely changed over the years.  But this confession is really going to be hard to get around.  In my mind, if Kishi wanted Hinata as a subplot, this would have been a perfect place for her to die.  Naruto could go angsty, and Sakura could pull him out of it.  Mind you, this doesn't mean that Hinata ISN'T a subplot, it just means he had a perfect point to end it and he didn't.  

Which means if this doesn't confirm the NaruHina shipping, it will bring up another subplot between Sakura and Hinata, with some interesting dilemnas there.  Sakura clearly is astounded by Hinata's devotion. She may also be jealous, but I tend to think she really respects Hinata for this.  It's possible that this may awaken Sakura to the fact that there's a lot more in Naruto than she saw before.  But even if it does, it seems doubtful she'll try to undermine Hinata.

Of course, by saying "undermine," I'm implying that Hinata has a position which Sakura does not, which is not necessarily the case.  But she has confessed, which Sakura hasn't, and that's important.  A number of people have pointed out that Sakura confessed to Sasuke, and the results were disastrous.  But Naruto isn't Sasuke.  He's not going to hear something like that and just say "You really ARE annoying (or dark, timid, and weird)."  

Granted, he might not take her in his arms and ask her to marry him.  But he's not going to forget it either, and I don't think he's likely to turn her down.  There aren't many people Naruto has said "NO" too, in terms of friendship.  So either way, the relationship between Hinata and Naruto is probably going to grow closer.  Perhaps it may be dissolved at some later point (Hinata may die, or it may not work out, or something may happen to Sakura), but for the present, if Naruto returns, I think things are going to turn in that direction.

There.


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## Kage (Apr 18, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Of course, by saying "undermine," I'm implying that Hinata has a position which Sakura does not, which is not necessarily the case.  But she has confessed, which Sakura hasn't, and that's important.  A number of people have pointed out that Sakura confessed to Sasuke, and the results were disastrous.  But Naruto isn't Sasuke.  He's not going to hear something like that and just say "You really ARE annoying (or dark, timid, and weird)."
> 
> Granted, he might not take her in his arms and ask her to marry him.  But he's not going to forget it either, and I don't think he's likely to turn her down.  There aren't many people Naruto has said "NO" too, in terms of friendship.  So either way, the relationship between Hinata and Naruto is probably going to grow closer.  Perhaps it may be dissolved at some later point (Hinata may die, or it may not work out, or something may happen to Sakura), but for the present, if Naruto returns, I think things are going to turn in that direction.
> 
> There.  Let the mud-slinging begin.



my only problem with this is that naruto's character, in the fact that he's not a jackass, is being used as leverage for this pair and to me that's really a sad thing to be _counting_ on the fact that he's not a jerk so hinata can get her big chance despite naruto's lack of romantic interest in her prior and even at this point.

if you don't come across as condescending or rude then you don't have to fear any backlash, assuming your opinion on the matter regardless of how it's presented will get mud thrown your way anyway is just _asking_ for it.

in short don't make assumptions like that.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 18, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Yo.
> 
> I'm new here and everything, and I can't pretend to know much about the series, I just got interested in it a month ago and have been digging up everything I could possibly find on the internet.



We'll be sure to remember that when debating 



> I must confess I'm a little surprised by this thread.  First, I'm surprised it exists, because most fandoms just put the separate ships into separate threads and just content themselves with occasional stabs at the other thread.  Second, I'm really pretty astonished at how childish everyone is being.  I haven't seen name calling this bad since I got involved in a YouTube debate.  It's probably incredibly stupid of me even to poke my head in here, as I'm probably going to get splattered worse than anyone else.



Welcome to NF my friend, your going to love it here i'm sure 



> But I did really want to discuss this issue, and I should at least give my two cents to relieve my own mind.
> 
> Again, I haven't seen the whole series, so I can't bring up specific examples of everything.  I'll stick with what I know.  Hinata's been obsessed with Naruto since day One.  Okay.  Sakura was obsessed with Sasuke.  Okay.  Naruto was obsessed with Sakura.  Okay.  Sasuke is currently an evil megalomaniac who both Naruto and Sakura are working together to save.  Okay.  Sakura happens to be a more central figure than Hinata.
> 
> ...



Your correct, about the initial set up of course, that was what started the series, many things have changed since that time. And there have been four incarnations of this thread prior to this one, this thread actually being up since last year, was hardly the product of that confession of Hinata's.



> Granted, I'm not up to speed on how Naruto and Sakura have completely changed over the years.  But this confession is really going to be hard to get around.  In my mind, if Kishi wanted Hinata as a subplot, this would have been a perfect place for her to die.  Naruto could go angsty, and Sakura could pull him out of it.  Mind you, this doesn't mean that Hinata ISN'T a subplot, it just means he had a perfect point to end it and he didn't.



Kishimoto has never killed rookie 9, no matter who they were, even if they were in a position to die. Its just his style. Hinata just gave Naruto his father and the start of his way on the path to peace, it was a plot device, and unlike many other foreshadowed elements in this series,the fact that she herself lived doesn't necessarily have to be proof of anything.



> Which means if this doesn't confirm the NaruHina shipping, it will bring up another subplot between Sakura and Hinata, with some interesting dilemnas there.  Sakura clearly is astounded by Hinata's devotion. She may also be jealous, but I tend to think she really respects Hinata for this.  It's possible that this may awaken Sakura to the fact that there's a lot more in Naruto than she saw before.  But even if it does, it seems doubtful she'll try to undermine Hinata.



Of course, Sakura is not that way, she may seem particularly spiteful and at times childish, but she would not resort to being underhanded in any situation. Being "astounded by Hinata's devotion" is also a bit much however, seeing as how she cut off her own revelation about Hinata's feelings for Naruto, its something she could figure out, but it wasn't about what Hinata did, but what she did implied about her feelings that Sakura was sullen.




> Of course, by saying "undermine," I'm implying that Hinata has a position which Sakura does not, which is not necessarily the case.  But she has confessed, which Sakura hasn't, and that's important.  A number of people have pointed out that Sakura confessed to Sasuke, and the results were disastrous.  But Naruto isn't Sasuke.  He's not going to hear something like that and just say "You really ARE annoying (or dark, timid, and weird)."



But like Sasuke did that first time, if he doesn't feel that way about her, or is not in a position to feel that way about the girl who just confessed to him, one should not expect that this gives Hinata some sort of advantage, as he HAS had his eye on another girl for the majority of the series, a confession cannot change much about that, unless we saw some development towards Naruto and Hinata's relationship, a confession will do nothing but make him grateful for her feelings, ala LeeSaku.



> Granted, he might not take her in his arms and ask her to marry him.  But he's not going to forget it either, and I don't think he's likely to turn her down.  There aren't many people Naruto has said "NO" too, in terms of friendship.  So either way, the relationship between Hinata and Naruto is probably going to grow closer.  Perhaps it may be dissolved at some later point (Hinata may die, or it may not work out, or something may happen to Sakura), but for the present, if Naruto returns, I think things are going to turn in that direction.
> 
> There.  Let the mud-slinging begin.



The thing you must remember, and what many people seem to forget about, is that you must replay exactly what your implying to yourself before throwing it out as an option. Your saying that he's going to go with Hinata, after all of this time, and basically say "screw Sakura, your much better than her", and basically ditch that one for the one which is easier? It reminds me of people who say that Naruto will stop looking for Sasuke because he obviously doesn't want to be saved. Naruto above all things is one who won't settle for compensation and this applies to all things.

And beyond Naruto's part of the equation, if Naruto was simply intending to end up with Hinata in the first place, Kishimoto surely wasted plenty of panel space towards Sakura's growing feelings and disposition towards Naruto, while leaving Hinata's chances of getting closer to Naruto and allowing for a flowing relationship in the dust.

If you want to debate more, go right ahead. I'll respond.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 18, 2009)

Ren said:


> Tsundere? Let's see: *Tsundere* is a japanese word for a character architype which describes a person with a conceited, spiky, combative personality that suddenly becomes modest and loving when triggered by some sort of cause (such as being alone with someone). It can also describe a personality that is good-willed, but its attitude and actions often contradict its nature.
> Let's compare that with Sakura:
> conceited, spiky, combative personality, check.
> Suddenly becomes modest and loving when triggered by some sort of cause, not really applying to NaruSaku, since she is not modest _or _loving towards Naruto (see insults, lied to him once that I remember, feeding scene was because of a Sasuke-related flashback), and he's pretty much the only person she insults, so not checked.
> Attitude and actions that often contradict its nature: uh, no. Everytime she yells at Naruto or says no to one of his dates, we _never _see her regretting that.


Shot 1
Shot 2
Shot 3
Shot 4
Shot 5
That's five times Sakura was nice to Naruto in the first 20 chapters.  Read a few pages back and forward of the examples and she'll say something rude.  Sounds like a Tsundere to me. 



Ren said:


> Shot 5 (*hint**hint*, it's in his expression!)
> Shot 5
> Shot 3 (even Sakura's more serious here than Naruto here)
> I forgot this one: Shot 5 (he's even lying here. He was thinking about Sasuke, not a date.)
> Yeah, I wonder why I don't take them seriously.


Doesn't look like a joke to me.  Let me ask what your oppinion of a serious...er...ask out is?  We deffinately don't see eye to eye on that.



Ren said:


> Have you actually read any of my other arguments against the pairing? Obviously this and everything else combined does not make a good relationship, actually far from the fan-portrayed "healthy" one.


And obsessing about someone you _don't know_ is healthy? 



Ren said:


> Naruto realizes why he likes Sakura so much: because she wants to be acknowledged by Sasuke.
> And funny thing is: Sakura from the begining of the series isn't liked by NS fans because she was a fangirl. But when it comes to her liking pranks (which she doesn't now), she is _likeable_ because that's so _Naruto_, and they're so much alike!
> And say what? They both understand what it feels like not to have friends? Where is that shown in those 2 chapters? Sakura didn't go through that half as much as Naruto. Sakura became friends with Ino quickly when she was 6/7, while Naruto, the first real friend he had was probably Iruka or Sasuke, when the series began.


And that's only the tip of the iceburg.  Ino was the _only_ friend Sakura had, so yeah she understood that.  Better than Sasuke did.  She's also determined, but somehow that doesn't count in your mind.  She gets excited easily.  And...well...Konohamaru discovered that she's also a perv.



Ren said:


> She obeys Tsunade, and the next time they interact she was harsh to him over something different, but was still related to Jiraiya. Another time when Sakura wasn't really aware of Naruto's state.
> And why the heck wouldn't she worry about him? They're friends! You worry about your friends don't you? I'm just saying that her worry over Naruto didn't seem as strong as over Tsunade. Her expression when she was talking to Shikamaru...


Well, I pointed out that she wasn't cruel to Naruto about Jiraiya's death.  What are you talking about?  Shikamaru already snapped Naruto out of his funk.  He was back to normal.
Also, since Naruto wants to be Hokage, shouldn't Sakura expect him to try to understand how to do the job?



Ren said:


> He ended up knowing from Yamato, and I don't remember him being that disturbed over it. I don't think he apologized or anything either. True, though, that hurting Sakura was his wake up call that he shouldn't rely on the Kyuubi's power, but if he had hurt any one else, he would still try to supress the kyuubi's powers, so it really doesn't mean she's irreplaceable there.
> And I like honesty. I prefer to hear what someone has to tell me right away than not telling me. So don't risk your non-existant money.


Well, unlike you, Naruto understood why Sakura didn't tell him.  He could have hurt someone else, but who else would have tried to reach him?  Face facts, Sakura is more important to him than Hinata.  That hasn't changed, and won't be anytime soon.



Ren said:


> Start from here: Shot 3
> not just for Sakura.


But he didn't start thinking about that until he saw Sasuke...so my point still stands.



Ren said:


> *She still is mean to him when it comes to romance. Even after the timeskip.*
> Shocked? Really?


She said "okay" the only time Naruto asked her out. 
Shocked?  That she would end up with a guy who tried to murder her best friend twice?  Gee, I wonder why? 



Ren said:


> Even with these: (1)Shot 5
> (2)From Shot 5 until the end of the chapter. Sure seems like her determination to bring him back is as high as ever.
> (3)Shot 5 And she doesn't rest until she gets information out of Sasori.The chapter is even called violent determination. And she really is way more determined then she was in part 1.
> (4)Shot 5 Not really evidence, but just to show that she feels guilty putting more pressure on him with the promise, so it could be one of the reasons she doesn't shove in his face that she still loves Sasuke.
> ...


1: She was thinking about a guy that responded to "I love you" with "You're annoying".  Could _that_ possibly have been bugging her?
2: I read the whole speach, and she ends it to encourage Naruto.  They're a step closer to finding Sasuke.
3:  My forehead is starting to hurt!  LOOK!  See her trying to kill Sasori without getting the information?
4: Or maybe she doesn't still love Sasuke.  This is the best arguement here.  And that's the sad part.
5: Surprise =/= Love.  Take it from someone who _has_ met up with a friend after not seeing her for years.  This reaction is normal.
6: She cries for Sasuke, but she's cried for Naruto more.  So...how are they defferent?
7: They just had their asses handed to them!  Of course she's going to try and figure out how it went wrong!
8: That's...what?...five tears for Sasuke...against at least fifty for Naruto.
9: Attraction =/= Love.
10: You're link isn't right here.  There's no Sakura on that page.
11: Determined that the mission will be a success...could be because of Sasuke.  Or because she wants Naruto to be free of his promise.
12: She's shown after him...so that's a hint that she still loves him?
I don't want or need another love confession from Sakura.  Just some indication that she still loves him, which there are none.  Note that once she got her barrings after seeing Sasuke for three years, she attacked him.  Didn't talk to him.  ATTACKED HIM.  Considing you act like her hitting Naruto makes NaruSaku unlikely, that makes SasuSaku impossible.

Would you like some ice for that burn?



Ren said:


> We don't have to _see_ them interact that way a lot (like Asuma and Kurenai for example). Just once or twice between missions and I think we get the picture, since this isn't a shoujo.


Naruto is the frickin' MAIN CHARACTER!


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## Afalstein (Apr 18, 2009)

I'm being intentionally bare-bones in my assessment, which is probably annoying, I know, but it's what I have to rely on.  So, kageneko, you're probably right, but I'm trying to stick with what I know.  And maybe I shouldn't have assumed mud-slinging, but it's happened on enough boards.

True.  None of the Konoha 9 have ever been killed.  Part of the series theme, I suppose, about how the younger generation is surpassing the older.  It still seems like it would have been a very interesting way to have ended the subplot.  Bittersweet, very moving, etc.  Especially because I have a hard time seeing Hinata give up, which would be another way to end this subplot. Of course, that might just be my lack of imagination.  It's entirely possible.

I didn't mean to imply that Naruto is going to just jump on Hinata and ask her out, but I suppose that was in the back of my mind, so you have a point there.  More broadly, I meant that there's going to have to be a definite acknowledgment between them about it.  Something maybe obvious to say, but Naruto's definitely going to have a different way of looking at Hinata. In my mind, it's going to be more positive (though how much I couldn't say). I suppose I just mean that Hinata is at least on the open field now in Naruto's mind.  It's impossible for her to remain the secret admirer that just watches sadly as Naruto goes elsewhere.  And she's impossible for Naruto to overlook.

 If it doesn't change for the better, it seems almost as close to the "Screw you Sakura" scenario.  I mean, the girl practically died trying to save him, explicitly because she loved him.  It's not so much a case of taking the easier girl (as a matter of fact that never crossed my mind), as of rejecting the avowed girl.  Basically, if the relationship doesn't take a turn for the better, it's a sort of "Screw you, Hinata" setup, which doesn't seem like Naruto's style. As kagneko points out, that's bypassing a lot of things about Naruto, but it's true nonetheless.

Note, though, that acknowledging this change doesn't necessarily amount to a dating relationship (nice as that would be), nor does it equal a "screw you, Sakura" mindset.  He's not rejecting Sakura in any way, because Sakura hasn't ever opened herself to rejection.  He might very well have a crush on Sakura, but he doesn't have any concrete evidence that it's returned.  So it's not a rejection of Sakura.  

Essentially, I see the choices for him as "Screw Hinata in order to keep self free for doubtful relationship with Sakura-chan." or "Acknowledge Hinata's almost-sacrifice (preferrably, though not necessarily, with a relationship)"  This is incredibly simplistic, I know, but I honestly see these as his choices.  And I think the latter seems more likely for him to follow.


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## Forlong (Apr 18, 2009)

kageneko said:


> soo..._none_ of that is about wanting sasuke safe and home or wanting to help naruto by getting stronger _together_?  i'm not even going to address what was in the tags -_-


Exactly.  I totally agree.




Afalstein said:


> Again, I haven't seen the whole series, so I can't bring up specific examples of everything.  I'll stick with what I know.  Hinata's been obsessed with Naruto since day One.  Okay.  Sakura was obsessed with Sasuke.  Okay.  Naruto was obsessed with Sakura.  Okay.  Sasuke is currently an evil megalomaniac who both Naruto and Sakura are working together to save.  Okay.  Sakura happens to be a more central figure than Hinata.
> 
> Those are facts.  None of them prove anything inherently.  Into that we drop Hinata's confession (which, I believe, was what prompted this thread initially).  Granted, I'm not up to speed on how Naruto and Sakura have completely changed over the years.  But this confession is really going to be hard to get around.  In my mind, if Kishi wanted Hinata as a subplot, this would have been a perfect place for her to die.  Naruto could go angsty, and Sakura could pull him out of it.  Mind you, this doesn't mean that Hinata ISN'T a subplot, it just means he had a perfect point to end it and he didn't.
> 
> ...


You are so right.  NaruHina could very well be just a subplot that won't end with them getting married and having five kids.


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## Afalstein (Apr 18, 2009)

Well, the point of my post was that I didn't think NaruHina was a subplot, but yes, it very well could.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 18, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> If it doesn't change for the better, it seems almost as close to the "Screw you Sakura" scenario.  I mean, the girl practically died trying to save him, explicitly because she loved him.  It's not so much a case of taking the easier girl (as a matter of fact that never crossed my mind), as of rejecting the avowed girl.  Basically, if the relationship doesn't take a turn for the better, it's a sort of "Screw you, Hinata" setup, which doesn't seem like Naruto's style. As kagneko points out, that's bypassing a lot of things about Naruto, but it's true nonetheless.



He can acknowledge Hinata the same way, like i said beforehand. Lee almost died for Sakura in the forest of death, however there was no necessary returning of feelings, besides Sakaura actually becoming more receptive to him as a person, risking your life for someone after confessing your love doesn't mean you have to consider them as a love interest, if you don't feel that way about that person, you just don't.




> Note, though, that acknowledging this change doesn't necessarily amount to a dating relationship (nice as that would be), nor does it equal a "screw you, Sakura" mindset.  He's not rejecting Sakura in any way, because Sakura hasn't ever opened herself to rejection.  He might very well have a crush on Sakura, but he doesn't have any concrete evidence that it's returned.  So it's not a rejection of Sakura.



This is also partially correct, however in a NaruSaku point of view, Naruto loves Sakura, and Sakura has been gaining feelings for him that he has not realized yet, its open to interpretation sure. Its less about rejecting Sakura when one says "screw Sakura" and more about the individuals interpretation of the strength of his feelings for that girl. If you think about it in that way, Naruto going to Hinata would seem more like pity because of what she did for him than actually considering her a love interest in her own right. 

In one case because of his feelings for Sakura, in another because he doesn't know Hinata enough as a person. Unlike Sakura, i doubt he's going to get more than 200 chapters to actually get to know her likes and dislikes, don't you agree? 



> Essentially, I see the choices for him as "Screw Hinata in order to keep self free for doubtful relationship with Sakura-chan." or "Acknowledge Hinata's almost-sacrifice (preferrably, though not necessarily, with a relationship)"  This is incredibly simplistic, I know, but I honestly see these as his choices.  And I think the latter seems more likely for him to follow.



Again, this goes with many things Naruto goes, in accordance with many other people, even if he doesn't know the result, he'll rush in anyway, that's how he lives. So even if it should come to pass, there's no need to pass it off as something not expected.


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## Afalstein (Apr 18, 2009)

True.  Personally, I kinda like SakuLee, but I can't pretend that's gone anywhere, so you have a point there.  But Lee is always shouting vows (not that that means he's insincere), and Hinata hasn't done anything like this before.

You're very correct, I doubt Hinata is getting another 200 episodes with Naruto.  In fact, if there were 200 left it would be a very serious problem.  But something's been bothering me, even outside of this debate.  

Character profiles haven't been able to give me much information about Sakura at all, outside of her obsession with Sasuke and her freindship with Ino.  Obviously her character is fleshed out a great deal more than Hinata's, as she appears in many more episodes, but it strikes me as odd that she has no deeply developed backstory.  I mean, half of the people you meet in Konoha seem to have some kind of traumatic past.  Of course, from that perspective, Sakura IS refreshing as one of the few non-traumatized people.  

But... I dunno, it just seems like such a pattern in the series to give people sad childhoods.  Does it ever hint she had problems as a child?  Apart from the whole "big forehead" thing? (EDIT: This is partly a point, but partly mere curiousity)

Of course, outside of what is shown in the manga, Naruto's spent a lot more time with her than Hinata, and therefore doubtless he knows more about her than Hinata.  But a big theme in the series is "the pain of loneliness," and how people need other people to understand their pain.  It just seems like... Sakura doesn't really have much pain to understand, outside of Sasuke.


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## mystic868 (Apr 18, 2009)

Probably it was done specially to hide Sakura's true feelings and also to make us dizzy a little too 
We can see clearly what Hinata feelings are but Sakura's ? It's one big mystery. We only know that she likes Naruto and that she changed her feelings for him but how much?
And you're right that if Hinata would become someone important to Naruto it should be shown in many chapters(started from deeper view into her feelings and character)


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 18, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Character profiles haven't been able to give me much information about Sakura at all, outside of her obsession with Sasuke and her freindship with Ino.  Obviously her character is fleshed out a great deal more than Hinata's, as she appears in many more episodes, but it strikes me as odd that she has no deeply developed backstory.  I mean, half of the people you meet in Konoha seem to have some kind of traumatic past.  Of course, from that perspective, Sakura IS refreshing as one of the few non-traumatized people.
> 
> 
> But... I dunno, it just seems like such a pattern in the series to give people sad childhoods.  Does it ever hint she had problems as a child?  Apart from the whole "big forehead" thing? (EDIT: This is partly a point, but partly mere curiousity)




Kishimoto stated Sakura to be one of the few "normal" children in the storyline. When he created her, he wanted a normal person who exhibited almost normal traits and growth of an ordinary person to mirror this. Sakura not having any known family members is an issue, but it doesn't really matter. For almost 400 chapters we had no idea who Naruto's mother was (and for many people his father as well). She may not have back story perse, but she has plenty of characterization. 





> Of course, outside of what is shown in the manga, Naruto's spent a lot more time with her than Hinata, and therefore doubtless he knows more about her than Hinata.  But a big theme in the series is "the pain of loneliness," and how people need other people to understand their pain.  It just seems like... Sakura doesn't really have much pain to understand, outside of Sasuke.



The pain of being helpless, and the pain of not understanding the people around you, and feeling like your a weakling due to not being able to help others you care about is not understandable pain? Its been a part of her for a long while now. Sakura in part 1, was worried for Sasuke, and his descent into darkness, in part 2, its always been about team 7, and her desire to connect all of them together again, like it used to be, as well as her desire to protect Naruto, and her pain that she can't do as much for him as he has for her throughout the manga.

Sakura does have plenty of issues she needs to work out. When you consider the fact that Hinata's only issue right now is her feelings for Naruto, as her family issues and confidence issues in regards to herself were patched up in part 1, i'm not sure i understand your uhm, point on that one. If you could make it abit more clearer


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## Afalstein (Apr 18, 2009)

Right.  Sorry, I'm not always so clear.  I meant it as an objection to your argument that Hinata will not have 200 chapters for Naruto to get to know her (or it is to be hoped not).  I was arguing that in some ways, Hinata has been developed a great deal already, so development would not be such an issue. Naruto may not have a lot of time to get to know here, but he knows her a little bit already, and its conceivable the series might end with them still getting to know each other.

The latter part of my argument, about the pain of loneliness is slightly different.  I wasn't saying Sakura didn't have any pain in her life, I just didn't think there was any direct comparison to Naruto's pain of loneliness like, say, Gaara or Sasuke.  Those were big factors in how they became friends with Naruto. (Or almost did, in Sasuke's case).  Sakura doesn't seem like she's ever been alone, like, really alone, before.  It would be easier to make a case that Hinata has (though that was brought up a long while back and hasn't been renewed since, as you point out), and therefore has a closer understanding of what Naruto went through.

Though, again, we don't know much about Sakura's past, so maybe they will reveal something about her family, who knows.  And even if not, it would be completely possible for Naruto to be more attracted to someone without his pain.  A sort of "opposites attract" sort of thing.  It doesn't necessarily hold with the pattern, but it would make sense.  

Not sure if that answers your question.  My main point was that Hinata's had a good deal of development over the course of the series.  The whole thing with Pain was a sidetrack I got interested in.


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## Saunion (Apr 18, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> The latter part of my argument, about the pain of loneliness is slightly different.  I wasn't saying Sakura didn't have any pain in her life, I just didn't think there was any direct comparison to Naruto's pain of loneliness like, say, Gaara or Sasuke.  Those were big factors in how they became friends with Naruto. (Or almost did, in Sasuke's case).  Sakura doesn't seem like she's ever been alone, like, really alone, before.  It would be easier to make a case that Hinata has (though that was brought up a long while back and hasn't been renewed since, as you point out), and therefore has a closer understanding of what Naruto went through.



I don't think that's the case at all. I think neither Sakura nor Hinata understood what Naruto went through. Sakura thought he was just an idiot who didn't have a normal childhood and was lucky, Hinata saw him struggle as a failure and used him as a source of inspiration. Some will say Hinata's behavior was so much more admirable, personally I don't see it.

She never tried to reach out to him when he was the village's pariah. Two explanations to that: she understood his pain of loneliness yet still did nothing out of shyness (unlikely how she's never been shown regretting it) or she only saw what she wanted to see, his determination in the face of the only hardship she could understand because she was able to relate to it, which is the fact they were both considered no talent losers.

I think it's obvious the second possibility is the most likely. Afterall how could she even begin to understand Naruto's situation? She wasn't an orphan, and more importantly she wasn't hated by the entire village because of the demon sealed inside her. Sure, her dad was harsh with her, but there's nothing telling us the rest of her family mistreated her, and it's likely her reputation in the village was good as a member of the prestigious Hyuuga clan.

So really I don't think Hinata understands Naruto particularly well, or even knows him particularly well for that matter.


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## Forlong (Apr 18, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> The latter part of my argument, about the pain of loneliness is slightly different.  I wasn't saying Sakura didn't have any pain in her life, I just didn't think there was any direct comparison to Naruto's pain of loneliness like, say, Gaara or Sasuke.  Those were big factors in how they became friends with Naruto. (Or almost did, in Sasuke's case).  Sakura doesn't seem like she's ever been alone, like, really alone, before.  It would be easier to make a case that Hinata has (though that was brought up a long while back and hasn't been renewed since, as you point out), and therefore has a closer understanding of what Naruto went through.


Sakura had no friends because everyone picked on her.  Ino befriended her.  But she basicly made Sakura her sidekick.  Sakura has a certain understanding for how Naruto feels.  How pissed to do you think she is to realise he was alone for _protecting_ the village?



Saunion said:


> She never tried to reach out to him when he was the village's pariah. Two explanations to that: she understood his pain of loneliness yet still did nothing out of shyness (unlikely how she's never been shown regretting it) or she only saw what she wanted to see, his determination in the face of the only hardship she could understand because she was able to relate to it, which is the fact they were both considered no talent losers.
> 
> I think it's obvious the second possibility is the most likely. Afterall how could she even begin to understand Naruto's situation? She wasn't an orphan, and more importantly she wasn't hated by the entire village because of the demon sealed inside her. Sure, her dad was harsh with her, but there's nothing telling us the rest of her family mistreated her, and it's likely her reputation in the village was good as a member of the prestigious Hyuuga clan.
> 
> So really I don't think Hinata understands Naruto particularly well, or even knows him particularly well for that matter.



You are right.  I've been making that arguement for some time.  Hinata probably doesn't even know Naruto's favorite food.


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## Afalstein (Apr 18, 2009)

The second does sound more likely, though I would still consider that a step up from viewing Naruto as a dropout who gets lucky. But Sakura has altered her position since then, so it doesn't have much pertinence on the current debate.  Point is not so much the beginning, but the end.  

I sense we may be straying into the "who's-better-than-who" cycle, which is fine and all, but I can't really contribute much to that and it doesn't actually have much to do with the argument, i.e., where do things go from here?

The point I was trying to make was that Hinata has enough of a development with Naruto where a romance could believably occur (okay, obviously, since enough people believe it)  They don't need to spend the next 200 episodes getting Naruto and Hinata to know each other better.  So I don't see a problem with some kind of romance starting up now, near the end.  I've already gone through my reasons for why I think it will start up and you've already answered them, so I won't go through that again.  But the time frame isn't an issue for me.

PS.  Do you think Kishi surfs the fan forums and laughs in delight at our mad scrambling?


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## Saunion (Apr 18, 2009)

The problem with that is, as often with NaruHina, you're only arguing from Hinata's perspective. Sure, Hinata has been interested in Naruto for a long time. What about Naruto though?

What I find extremely unsatisfying with NaruHina and the arguments in its favor is that Naruto spent the vast majority of the manga ignoring Hinata. Or at least, not showing her the attention and care a potential love interest should deserve. They say hate is the closest thing from love, but they surely don't say the same thing for indifference.

It's made especially worse as, according to anti NaruSaku fans, his "love" for Sakura is actually a silly crush, and that he only wants a girl to love him romantically, no matter which girl. Nevermind the fact it's ignoring current Naruto isn't the same character as 12 year old beginning of the manga Naruto who was hopelessly wanting to be acknowledged by someone, anyone, and that he now has plenty of people genuinely caring for him, but what does it say about Naruto's interest in Hinata if, even as hopeless for romantic acknowledgement as he is, even after being rejected by Sakura many times, even after supposedly accepting her love for Sasuke, he still shows no incentive to even consider Hinata as a potential romantic partner?

NaruHina fans love to mention that infamous training ground scene in part 1 where Naruto tells Hinata he "likes people like her". Surely that could be interpreted as him starting to warm up to her romantically... If it hadn't been followed by scenes during the Gaara fight where the readers are privy to his inner thoughts, showing Hinata relegated to Shino, Lee and Chouji status, while Naruto's most important persons are shown to be Iruka and Team 7... Including a girl he supposedly only has a silly crush on. And after all that, here come 300 something chapters where Naruto keeps on awkwardly showing he's interested in that same girl, while ignoring the one who's supposed to become the love of his life. 

I often read fans from all sides throw the "this isn't shojo!" "this is shonen so that development makes sense for the genre!" argument. I'll tell you what I've never seen in my modest experience of shonen manga; I've never seen a title character switch love interests almost 50 volumes into the story. I guess Kishimoto could break the trend, but given how formulaic Naruto is I honestly doubt it.

And yes, if Kishi could read English and browsed these forums he'd obviously be appalled.


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## mystic868 (Apr 19, 2009)

Hinata almost didn't have any pain in her history(family problems was like a small beer in comparision with REAL problems of Sakura or Naruto). 



Saunion said:


> The problem with that is, as often with NaruHina, you're only arguing from Hinata's perspective. Sure, Hinata has been interested in Naruto for a long time. What about Naruto though?



Fully agree



Saunion said:


> I often read fans from all sides throw the "this isn't shojo!" "this is shonen so that development makes sense for the genre!" argument. I'll tell you what I've never seen in my modest experience of shonen manga; I've never seen a title character switch love interests almost 50 volumes into the story. I guess Kishimoto could break the trend, but given how formulaic Naruto is I honestly doubt it.


So do you think that making NaruHina romantic issue will require a lot more chapters about themselves right? 
And in my opinion that will be ridiculous to change Naruto way of feelings to Hinata, after a long description of Sakura's feelings.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 19, 2009)

nadini said:


> yes, only posted here to say that, that up there is just an excuse so a mod doesn't kill me for 'spamming'



Posting is a waste of time 
It's sad how this place was actually better before 437 cos there wasn't as much fatuity.
Just take the "_Sasuke_ makes Sakura improve" and "Naruto trains for _Sakura_". When those are considered invincible pairing logic you know something's wrong.


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## hmph (Apr 19, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Hinata almost didn't have any pain in her history(family problems was like a small beer in comparision with REAL problems of Sakura or Naruto).



What real problems for Sakura  Oh no, she had no friends and she didn't compare the ideal of feminine beauty. Until she found a friend. Gee, what a horrible story.


*Spoiler*: __ 



So, whos up for discussion of parrallels between Dr. Love and Sakura in one of the newest chapters?


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## ButterflyGod (Apr 19, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Hinata almost didn't have any pain in her history(family problems was like a small beer in comparision with REAL problems of Sakura or Naruto).



All right. I have to take issue with this. Everyone suffers from pain and everyone has problems. Hinata experienced real pain and she also had real problems too. Just because she was not going through the same experiences Sakura and Naruto were going through doesn't mean they don't matter as much.


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## XXXTurkey (Apr 19, 2009)

Hmm, i'm gonna have to butt in here cos something is bugging me with all that i've been reading...

I don't like the way the word "love" has been bandied about.  When someone loves someone else, that should mean something and be based on something.  Specifically, putting Hinata's feelings towards Naruto in the same boat as Lee's to Sakura is just wrong.

For a start i'll say that i love Lee as a character, but where do his (short lived) feelings (i said feelings, not love.  I could also say his attraction) for Sakura come from?  An in depth understanding of her character?  No.  So when Lee is rejected, i.e. let down gently by Sakura, you can see why she did it.  Lee's intentions were honourable (they always are ) but his feelings were shallow and based on very little.  Not only that, but Sakura didn't reject him just because she didn't feel "that way" about him.  She liked Sasuke in "that way".

Conversely, Hinata's love is deeply rooted and shows an evident understanding of Naruto's character.  From the training ground talk we know that he inspires Hinata, she knows he isn't perfect and that he does fail, but she loves him because of that, because he will never stop trying.  On top of that there is chapter 437, which speaks for itself, Hinata loves Naruto.

The only argument that can possibly disprove that is one that can prove Hinata's understanding of Naruto is wrong.  And that can't be done.  Naruto himself acknowledges the fact that Hinata understands him way back in part 1, and at any point during chapter 437 does Naruto look like he is thinking "she doesn't know what she is talking about"?  On top of that, has anything Hinata has ever said about Naruto missed the mark, or shown that she doesn't understand him?  From what i can see, there is only evidence that she does.

The question then is whether Naruto can return Hinata's feelings, and the obvious answer is why not?  I won't trivialise Naruto's feelings for Sakura as a "silly crush", but any feelings he does have certainly aren't love.  In fact, the only internalising of Naruto's feeling we have been given are "Sakura-chan, a cute girl i kind of like" and "now i understand why i like Sakura-chan".  Where in the rest of the story is there any clear indication that Naruto is harbouring a love for his pink-haired team-mate that stops him thinking about anyone else?  When his date requests are rejected by Sakura, is he heartbroken?  Are any of his date requests seriously planned or thought out to maximise the chance of her accepting?  I'm not saying that he wouldn't be interested in a relationship with her if the opportunity arose, but the dynamic between them is pretty established and as such, what exactly is stopping Naruto from exploring a relationship with another girl?  As has been said it is possible that Naruto would not feel "that" way about Hinata, but from what i can see there isn't really any way that it would be anything to do with Sakura or his supposed "feelings" for her.

To give a real life example (and i know, Naruto is a story and as such shouldn't be compared in that way.  Think of it as an insight into why i feel the way i do) i had a crush on one of my friends.  I had known her for ten years (and still know her for that matter) and i know a hell of a lot about her, likes/dislikes, life goals, even what she would name her children!  We go out and watch movies, talk about nothing in particular, basically spend loads of time together.  If she had asked me out i would probably have said yes.  But i wasn't actively pursuing her in any meaningful way.  Around that time, we were out together (with some other friends) and another girl approached me.  She said "are you with her" pointing to the girl i had a crush on.  I said "no", i went with her and a week later we were in a relationship.

I knew nothing about this other girl, she didn't know anything about me, and we ended up together.  Conversely, Hinata and Naruto already know each other, and even share a Nindo.  Why would it matter if she doesn't know every mission he went on, or what his favorite food is?  It would seem that the main argument Naruto cannot try a relationship with Hinata is because there has not been enough interaction between the two of them but that is missing the point.  But you don't need to know every little detail about someone to love them and you don't need to know every little detail about someone to consider them a potential love interest.  Knowing and accepting someone's core beliefs, accepting all of someone despite their flaws and being willing to sacrifice yourself for them, i think that is love (Hinata).  On the other side, (Naruto) finding someone who will sacrifice themself for you, who understands you and accepts you despite your flaws, wouldn't you be willing to at least try a relationship with that person?

In the end, this will all be decided by Naruto's feelings for Hinata.  Naruto may think about Sakura while making his decision, but if he wants to pursue a relationship with Hinata his supposed feelings for Sakura will not get in the way.  He will not reject Hinata to continue his current "pursuit" (if you can call it that) of Sakura.  If he rejects Hinata, it should be because of Hinata, no-one else.

And to be honest, i can't see him rejecting her.  Taking into account everything i've just said, there's also *no-one has ever said they loved Naruto to him before* something Naruto as a character is incredibly unlikely to throw away, *this manga's theme is acceptance not rejection* a theme that has not yet been broken and i don't think ever will, and *Naruto has never rejected a new bond offered to him and has fought tooth and nail to preserve those that have already been created*.

Saying that, i'm not saying that Naruto is instantly going to start dating Hinata.  It will be awkward (look at the two characters involved, a love starved, brash boy and a shy, withdrawn girl with family issues), it will be hesitant, but i seriously believe it will happen.

Is what i think...


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## Black Flicka (Apr 20, 2009)

oh crap:amazed
i'm not here for 2 days and narusaku fans already losing
oh well, my turn

ok so I'll go with the whole concept of sakura finally realizing that naruto knows about her than she realized. if you look back in chapter 3 sakura said straight out that naruto knew NOTHING about her. that entire moment just showed her how much naruto DOES know her. naruto knows what it feels like to love someone and not get back the same feelings in return. to only want the love and acknowledgement of that person and to never receive it. so yeah naruto DOES know what sakura's going through but it's not as though he's just given up on her. naruto's far too stubborn to give up on something once he's put his mind to it and sakura is one of his goals. he wants sakura's love and acknowledgment and he wouldn't let go that easily.

also sakura's shocked expression is just showing sakura starting to realize that all this time she's misjudged naruto. that maybe he was never trying to annoy her and hurt her chances at finding love. she's finally beginning to realize how much naruto DOES care about her and how much she means to him. that he would do anything even sacrifice his happiness with her. as long as it would make sakura happy. that's how much naruto loves sakura.

yet why would sakura BREAK a promise to sasuke(when he told her not to talk about orochimaru and cursed seal). after all at first she denied even seeing the curse seal because of the promise she made to sasuke. yet she was willing to break that promise and confide in naruto because she IS starting to trust him and she's beginning to see him far differently than she did in the past. would sakura have confided in naruto at the beginning of the manga? I bet not.

I wouldn't say that naruhina doesn't have ANY possibilities, naruhina it's pretty much one sided love like narusaku but the difference between these two is that hinata barely is shown in the anime so I don't think that a character who doesn't show up would end up with a main character that is naruto but still anything is possible, I hope that narusaku still happens though. sakura needs to cool off her feelings for sasuke and start looking for people who like her and would do anything for her (best example is naruto)


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## M4verick (Apr 20, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Hmm, i'm gonna have to butt in here cos something is bugging me with all that i've been reading...
> 
> I don't like the way the word "love" has been bandied about.  When someone loves someone else, that should mean something and be based on something.  Specifically, putting Hinata's feelings towards Naruto in the same boat as Lee's to Sakura is just wrong.
> 
> For a start i'll say that i love Lee as a character, but where do his (short lived) feelings (i said feelings, not love.  I could also say his attraction) for Sakura come from?  An in depth understanding of her character?  No.  So when Lee is rejected, i.e. let down gently by Sakura, you can see why she did it.  Lee's intentions were honourable (they always are ) but his feelings were shallow and based on very little.  Not only that, but Sakura didn't reject him just because she didn't feel "that way" about him.  She liked Sasuke in "that way".



Hinata's love for Naruto is based on just watching him, so although its different from Lee, its really not that far either.




XXXTurkey said:


> Conversely, Hinata's love is deeply rooted and shows an evident understanding of Naruto's character.  From the training ground talk we know that he inspires Hinata, she knows he isn't perfect and that he does fail, but she loves him because of that, because he will never stop trying.  On top of that there is chapter 437, which speaks for itself, Hinata loves Naruto.
> 
> The only argument that can possibly disprove that is one that can prove Hinata's understanding of Naruto is wrong.  And that can't be done.  Naruto himself acknowledges the fact that Hinata understands him way back in part 1, and at any point during chapter 437 does Naruto look like he is thinking "she doesn't know what she is talking about"?



Hinata only understands a degree of Naruto, the only degree which she's seen from her distance observing.

Also, where does Naruto say Hinata understands him?

And if you want to talk about understanding, the one who probably fully understands Naruto more than anyone else is the manga is Sakura.



XXXTurkey said:


> On top of that, has anything Hinata has ever said about Naruto missed the mark, or shown that she doesn't understand him?  From what i can see, there is only evidence that she does.



Really, not a big deal when they have only had one conversation in the whole manga.


Here, she says he has he strength to get back up, but when he takes one kick, she's scared to death. 

How much does she truly understand him?



XXXTurkey said:


> The question then is whether Naruto can return Hinata's feelings, and the obvious answer is why not?  I won't trivialise Naruto's feelings for Sakura as a "silly crush", but any feelings he does have certainly aren't love.  In fact, the only internalising of Naruto's feeling we have been given are "Sakura-chan, a cute girl i kind of like" and "now i understand why i like Sakura-chan".  Where in the rest of the story is there any clear indication that Naruto is harbouring a love for his pink-haired team-mate that stops him thinking about anyone else?  When his date requests are rejected by Sakura, is he heartbroken?  Are any of his date requests seriously planned or thought out to maximise the chance of her accepting?  I'm not saying that he wouldn't be interested in a relationship with her if the opportunity arose, but the dynamic between them is pretty established and as such, what exactly is stopping Naruto from exploring a relationship with another girl?  As has been said it is possible that Naruto would not feel "that" way about Hinata, but from what i can see there isn't really any way that it would be anything to do with Sakura or his supposed "feelings" for her.



You say your not gonna trivialize Naruto's feelings for Sakura as a crush, but you way its no love.  What is in between?  Although the manga hasn't stated Naruto loves her, its obvious by his his

Naruto may have never gotten heartbroken from Sakura's rejections, but is that really his character to get heartbroken?  Is it really his character to plan some super romantic date? When he does get rejected, does he give up? Not at all.





XXXTurkey said:


> To give a real life example (and i know, Naruto is a story and as such shouldn't be compared in that way.  Think of it as an insight into why i feel the way i do) i had a crush on one of my friends.  I had known her for ten years (and still know her for that matter) and i know a hell of a lot about her, likes/dislikes, life goals, even what she would name her children!  We go out and watch movies, talk about nothing in particular, basically spend loads of time together.  If she had asked me out i would probably have said yes.  But i wasn't actively pursuing her in any meaningful way.  Around that time, we were out together (with some other friends) and another girl approached me.  She said "are you with her" pointing to the girl i had a crush on.  I said "no", i went with her and a week later we were in a relationship.



The big difference is that you weren't pursuing her.



XXXTurkey said:


> I knew nothing about this other girl, she didn't know anything about me, and we ended up together.  Conversely, Hinata and Naruto already know each other, and even share a Nindo.  Why would it matter if she doesn't know every mission he went on, or what his favorite food is?  It would seem that the main argument Naruto cannot try a relationship with Hinata is because there has not been enough interaction between the two of them but that is missing the point.  But you don't need to know every little detail about someone to love them and you don't need to know every little detail about someone to consider them a potential love interest.  Knowing and accepting someone's core beliefs, accepting all of someone despite their flaws and being willing to sacrifice yourself for them, i think that is love (Hinata).  On the other side, *(Naruto) finding someone who will sacrifice themself for you, who understands you and accepts you despite your flaws, wouldn't you be willing to at least try a relationship with that person?*



Or how about someone that sacrifice for you, fully understands you, and knows your flaws but pushes you to be better?  Sounds like an even better person.



XXXTurkey said:


> In the end, this will all be decided by Naruto's feelings for Hinata.  Naruto may think about Sakura while making his decision, but if he wants to pursue a relationship with Hinata his supposed feelings for Sakura will not get in the way.  He will not reject Hinata to continue his current "pursuit" (if you can call it that) of Sakura.  If he rejects Hinata, it should be because of Hinata, no-one else.
> 
> And to be honest, i can't see him rejecting her.  Taking into account everything i've just said, there's also *no-one has ever said they loved Naruto to him before* something Naruto as a character is incredibly unlikely to throw away, *this manga's theme is acceptance not rejection* a theme that has not yet been broken and i don't think ever will, and *Naruto has never rejected a new bond offered to him and has fought tooth and nail to preserve those that have already been created*.



Hinata was the first person to tell Naruto he is truly strong, didn't really change much in there relationship now did it?

The manga is actually about "not giving up". There has been plenty of rejection to go around in the manga.

The bonds he's fights tooth and nail for are the bonds in danger of being broken.  Kind of like his bonds with um...what his name...Sasuke.
[/QUOTE]


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## Black Flicka (Apr 20, 2009)

and i want to discuss naruhina a little bit more 

I have to be honest on this. the only reason naruto even cheered for hinata was because of neji. if neji hadn't been ranting on with his failure's and losers are always failure's and losers speech then naruto would have just stayed quiet. (well maybe not, he's never quiet)

also that entire section of the manga was more about neji anyways. hinata was just there and gave more of a reason. after all they needed SOMEONE for neji to rant towards is it any coincidence that it was HINATA and not shino, chouji, or any of the other genin's? after all without neji's rants and speeches naruto wouldn't have had any reason to fight neji and prove his ideals about failures always being failures wrong. 

also the entire point of proving neji wrong was not to avenge hinata. he never even thought of her during that fight. his main purpose was to prove neji wrong because NARUTO in general was considered a loser and a failure. someone who wouldn't even succeed no matter how hard he tried and heck if naruto was going to let neji get away with saying that he'd always remain a failure. 

also that line to hinata that naruto said towards the match. that basically meant that he went from thinking that she was nothing but some weirdo to someone he respects and thinks of as a friend. it's not like he made any declaration of love or changed his feelings from sakura to hinata right then and there because then why would naruto fight so hard against gaara JUST to save sakura? why would naruto work so hard to bring sasuke back JUST for sakura? lately a lot of the things he's done is because he's doing it FOR sakura.

but ok well that's my opinion 
i'm explaining you why i feel the way i feel about pairings 
so there....


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## Miss Happy (Apr 20, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> also that entire section of the manga was more about neji anyways. hinata was just there and gave more of a reason. after all they needed SOMEONE for neji to rant towards is it any coincidence that it was HINATA and not shino, chouji, or any of the other genin's? after all without neji's rants and speeches naruto wouldn't have had any reason to fight neji and prove his ideals about failures always being failures wrong.


no the entire section of the manga was about the internal problems taht the hyuuga clan hasand about *hinata and neji*!
manga


> also the entire point of proving neji wrong was not to avenge hinata. he never even thought of her during that fight. his main purpose was to prove neji wrong because NARUTO in general was considered a loser and a failure. someone who wouldn't even succeed no matter how hard he tried and heck if naruto was going to let neji get away with saying that he'd always remain a failure.


on the contrary he really wanted to avenge her
Chapter 240
he saw taht in a way she was just like him she simply refused to give up...she had no chance of winning but she fought on!She impressed him!he even said she was cool!


> also that line to hinata that naruto said towards the match. that basically meant that he went from thinking that she was nothing but some weirdo to someone he respects and thinks of as a friend. it's not like he made any declaration of love or changed his feelings from sakura to hinata right then and there because then why would naruto fight so hard against gaara *JUST to save sakura? why would naruto work so hard to bring sasuke back JUST for sakura? lately a lot of the things he's done is because he's doing it FOR sakura.*


she was the girl that by saying out loud her impression about naruto made the latter feel once again confident and hopeful. 
hinata was the only girl that admired naruto ever since the beginning!her reasons for falling in love were not shallow and i strongly believe that these are the most profound feellings a girl felt for a boy in this manga so far.She *always* wanted to reach him,to overcome him,to be with him and to walk with him...if this is not enough for you to accept her then my question is:What did sakura did or felt towards naruto that makes her the perfect girl for him?Cos naruto always liked her i have the nerve here to differ!
manga
see he never was into sakura seriously because he never understood this interest in women...i never said that naruto doesn't love sakura cos it will be a lie!all the team 7 members love each other and are willing to die for one another but that doesn't mean they are in love! 
oh my dear.......
the bold part...
the bold part....
the bold part...
i won't say  anything cos i'm afraid i'll offend you
​







proud to be a sasusaku *fangirl *


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## Miss Happy (Apr 20, 2009)

i've changed my mind about not saying anything in regards to the bold part
sasuke...
where does sasu-kun fit in your story?
you know sasuke that bastard who left
naruto's so called "brother"
sasuke... is also the cute being who makes naruto go crazy for him
please can you tell me where is that cute creature?
i don't see him
naruto wants to do everything for sakura now...
poor sasu-kun he was the one that accepted naruto's existence the most and now teh only thing that he deserves is to die alone 
anyway who cares about him...
after all naruto did everything for sakura ...he fought gaara for her...he fought even neji for her (oh the power of love!!!)...his rival was the boy that sakura had a crush on aka sasu-kun...
he hates sasuke but he wants him back for sakura...
and he wants to become hogake for sakura too!he thinks taht sakura will fell for him if she will see him the best in the fricking village...
he fought pain for sakura...he went so many times kyuubi mode for her..... i forgot about haku he fought him for her too................................
...........................................................................................
to be continued​


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 20, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> What did sakura did or felt towards naruto that makes her the perfect girl for him?Cos naruto always liked her i have the nerve here to differ!
> answer



Om..g... that is so gay

The thing is that Naruto does a lot of heart-wrenching stuff to make Sakura happy, unlike Sasuke


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## mystic868 (Apr 20, 2009)

ButterflyGod said:


> All right. I have to take issue with this. Everyone suffers from pain and everyone has problems. Hinata experienced real pain and she also had real problems too. Just because she was not going through the same experiences Sakura and Naruto were going through doesn't mean they don't matter as much.


So what was that real pain in her case? her character problems? or maybe that her father wasn't good for her? It's still nothing comparing it to for example Naruto loneliness during his life or Sakura's lost of Sasuke.


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## Renxx (Apr 20, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Shot 1


Chapter 4 page 8. "The thing I dislike is Naruto". Yeah, she really was trying to be nicer.



> Shot 2


? She fed him because Sasuke did it (she only did it after him).



> Shot 3


She was scared of the mission and wanted to go back, so used Naruto as an excuse?



> Shot 4 and 5


This one is the best that represents a Tsundere, but doesn't apply to NS. You only consider saving your friend if you're in in love with him?
You only give advice when to the one you like?



> That's five times Sakura was nice to Naruto in the first 20 chapters.  Read a few pages back and forward of the examples and she'll say something rude.  Sounds like a Tsundere to me.


5 becomes 2. Not really much of a Tsundere. Specially now in part 2. And just one thing: She did those things when she had a crush on Sasuke (later became serious). She wasn't even considering Naruto romantically. Doesn't apply to NS.



> Doesn't look like a joke to me.  Let me ask what your oppinion of a serious...er...ask out is?  We deffinately don't see eye to eye on that.


Oh any time he isn't: a)having an awkward expression; b)taking advantage of Sakura asking Sasuke out to bring up his own (in chapter 33, if she didn't ask Sasuke out, Naruto wouldn't have either. He'd shut up right there.); c)lying that he was thinking about asking her out, when in reality he was thinking about Sasuke (once again Sakura can't see when Naruto lies to her and vice-versa)



> And obsessing about someone you _don't know_ is healthy?


Here we go again. I have always said she was a fangirl in the beginning. She clearly got to know him better, she finally got to know that he wasn't perfect, and didn't have the perfect life. What happenned then? She stopped fangirling and fell in love with him.



> And that's only the tip of the iceburg.  Ino was the _only_ friend Sakura had, so yeah she understood that.


She didn't understand that. When she found out in the Rescue Gaara arc, she pitied him. First she was only friends with Ino but gained more friends when Ino introduced her to her own, and it wasn't long.



> Better than Sasuke did.


 
Show me.



> She's also determined, but somehow that doesn't count in your mind.


So is Hinata and every other rookie in Konoha.



> She gets excited easily.


She wasn't excited during the conversation (minus the kissing part. But still she wasn't exactly jumping up and down)



> And...well...Konohamaru discovered that she's also a perv.


And how? By transforming into _Sasuke_ and _Sai_. I wonder what made him change his mind about the type Sakura likes... Oh well, it kinda worked!



> Well, I pointed out that she wasn't cruel to Naruto about Jiraiya's death.  What are you talking about?  Shikamaru already snapped Naruto out of his funk.  He was back to normal.


No he wasn't. You think you get over the death of someone dear to you just after a pep talk? He working towards avenging Jiraiya, so yeah, it was related.



> Also, since Naruto wants to be Hokage, shouldn't Sakura expect him to try to understand how to do the job?


And because of that, she had to be harsh to him, otherwise he wouldn't learn, just like a little kid. 
Just like she punches and insults him. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't respect an Hokage that had a leash put on by his wife.



> Well, unlike you, Naruto understood why Sakura didn't tell him.  He could have hurt someone else, but who else would have tried to reach him?  Face facts, Sakura is more important to him than Hinata.  That hasn't changed, and won't be anytime soon.


_Are you sure? _He just recently has shown more care for Hinata than Sakura. And he doesn't even know where/how Sakura is. In fact, he grouped Sakura with the rest of the villagers, while caring for Hinata _specifically_. That doesn't tell me much about his true love.



> But he didn't start thinking about that until he saw Sasuke...so my point still stands.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but he didn't think about her when he was heading there, did he?



> She said "okay" the only time Naruto asked her out.


? What about the "No dumbass!" or "You should be studying ninjutsu if you have the time for that". Are those 'yes'?



> Shocked?  That she would end up with a guy who tried to murder her best friend twice?  Gee, I wonder why?


If we're heading that way, then why does Naruto want to bring back a guy who's tried to kill him twice?



> 1: She was thinking about a guy that responded to "I love you" with "You're annoying".  Could _that_ possibly have been bugging her?


There was no thank you. A thank you that he had never said to anyone, and didn't surprise her at all. Besides, she wasn't devastated when he left or anything like that. Nothing to be bugged about.



> 2: I read the whole speach, and she ends it to encourage Naruto.  They're a step closer to finding Sasuke.


Ignore the part where she says she has researched all she could and more. She is as determined as Naruto is (hence the "Sakura-chan...you too..." from Naruto).



> 3: LOOK!  See her trying to kill Sasori without getting the information?


Chapter 272, page 17. "No matter how much you resist, no matter what you do! I'll beat you half to death and make you talk about Orochimaru!"



> 4: Or maybe she doesn't still love Sasuke.  This is the best arguement here.  And that's the sad part.


Whatever you think.



> 5: Surprise =/= Love.  Take it from someone who _has_ met up with a friend after not seeing her for years.  This reaction is normal.


Oh come on. Not even Naruto had such a focus.



> 6: She cries for Sasuke, but she's cried for Naruto more.  So...how are they defferent?


Go back and reread part 1.



> 7: They just had their asses handed to them!  Of course she's going to try and figure out how it went wrong!


...She is researching on Sasuke. On his condition, what caused it.



> 8: That's...what?...five tears for Sasuke...against at least fifty for Naruto.
> Part 1 doesn't exist, or so it seems.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ButterflyGod (Apr 20, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> So what was that real pain in her case? her character problems? or maybe that her father wasn't good for her? It's still nothing comparing it to for example Naruto loneliness during his life or Sakura's lost of Sasuke.



Who gives anyone the authority to decide what is real pain? If you're in pain, physical or emotional, and you're feeling it, it's real. What does it matter what kind it is that makes it any less? If Hinata's problems weren't causing her pain she wouldn't have tried to do anything about them! She wouldn't even have mentioned them! Yes, her problems in comparison to Naruto's and Sakura's, are probably less gigantic in scale, but my issue here isn't the size of her problems, it's the reality of them.

Bottom line: No one has the right to tell you your pain isn't real regardless of what that pain is. Every character: Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Hinata, Kakashi, Nagato (hell he CALLS himself Pain for pete's sake!), Shikamaru, Tsunade... all of their pain was/is real. Why? Read the manga. Look at what it's made them think, say, and feel, look at the expressions on their faces. Doesn't matter what the nature of the pain it is, it's real and they were/are feeling it.  

I will say no more on this. I can't believe I even had to defend it.


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 20, 2009)

ButterflyGod said:


> Who gives anyone the authority to decide what is real pain? If you're in pain, physical or emotional, and you're feeling it, it's real. What does it matter what kind it is that makes it any less? If Hinata's problems weren't causing her pain she wouldn't have tried to do anything about them! She wouldn't even have mentioned them! Yes, her problems in comparison to Naruto's and Sakura's, are probably less gigantic in scale, but my issue here isn't the size of her problems, it's the reality of them.
> 
> Bottom line: No one has the right to tell you your pain isn't real regardless of what that pain is. Every character: Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Hinata, Kakashi, Nagato (hell he CALLS himself Pain for pete's sake!), Shikamaru, Tsunade... all of their pain was/is real. Why? Read the manga. Look at what it's made them think, say, and feel, look at the expressions on their faces. Doesn't matter what the nature of the pain it is, it's real and they were/are feeling it.
> 
> I will say no more on this. I can't believe I even had to defend it.



Of course all characters had their bad moments, Hinata also suffered but her family problems really were nothing in compare to for example Naruto. Are family problems as much full of pain as living all the time without parents and as class clown(in the beginning)? No they're not the same. There ARE more and less painfull moments in life.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 20, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> So what was that real pain in her case? her character problems? or maybe that her father wasn't good for her? It's still nothing comparing it to for example Naruto loneliness during his life or *Sakura's lost of Sasuke*.


the real pain hinata went true was because of lack of affection especially from her family
please don't try to compare hinata with sakura when we are talking about problems!our heroine has NO problems!absolutly NO problems she just like to think that she has-please don't bring up the lack of confidence cos hinata will win here too!
Hinata wasn't *alone* she was lonely!she had *real problems *because people around her had great expectations from her(and no matter how much she tried it was still not enough!)her father tought she was a  *failure * and that's made her feel insecure and hopeless!
hinata can understand better naruto than sakura can!people like to believe that sakura was changed by naruto but they forget that  the first girl naruto changed  was hinata(and he didn't even realized it).
Hinata said it herself taht she always used to cry a lot and give up but naruto showed her the way!*his smile saved her*!
i guess it's pointless to debate here since it's obvious that hinata's love for naruto is deeper than the one sakura has for him!and also hinata was the first girl to see the real NARUTO not sakura!


wha...so you do agree that sasuke meant a lot to sakura 
great!


----------



## Black Flicka (Apr 20, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> i've changed my mind about not saying anything in regards to the bold part
> sasuke...
> where does sasu-kun fit in your story?
> you know sasuke that bastard who left
> ...



kk....
i didn't understood were u being sarcastic or something.... O.O
but i do know that i don't like sasuke very much and if u ask me his destiny is to die alone -.-
but if naruto wants him back that's fine with me
and naruto did fought gaara to protect sakura
and he would went kyuubi for every single person who cares about him in any way
and i just said he didn't fought neji for hinata he fought him for his beliefs
but ok u can have ur opinion and i will try my best to prove you wrong cuz' my beliefs are different


----------



## Forlong (Apr 20, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _manga spoilers within MUST be tagged_ 





XXXTurkey said:


> Conversely, Hinata's love is deeply rooted and shows an evident understanding of Naruto's character.  From the training ground talk we know that he inspires Hinata, she knows he isn't perfect and that he does fail, but she loves him because of that, because he will never stop trying.  On top of that there is chapter 437, which speaks for itself, Hinata loves Naruto.


Your arguement is a good one.  That could very well happen. 
However, I still find NaruSaku the more likely pairing.  We know Naruto loves Sakura, and Sakura cares for Naruto.  It's pretty one-sided on NaruHina.  We don't know how Naruto is going to deal with this.  Hinata or Sakura could become targets for Madara, if Naruto isn't careful.  He also doesn't want to hurt Hinata or Sakura's feelings.  Yes, Sakura would feel hurt on some level knowing Naruto has given up on her.

Your real life example is a good one, but you didn't persue it.  I've been in that same boat myself.



cuteyume said:


> What did sakura did or felt towards naruto that makes her the perfect girl for him?


We can start here, and go on four more pages.  First, she asks how to remove a Bijuu.  She wanted to know if she could get rid of the Kyuubi and end Naruto's pain.  And then she finds out the process kills a Jinchuriki.  There will be no end to Naruto's pain.  And she cries over that.



Ren said:


> Chapter 4 page 8. "The thing I dislike is Naruto". Yeah, she really was trying to be nicer.


Thank you for prooving my point.  She goes from being nice to being mean. 



Ren said:


> She was scared of the mission and wanted to go back, so used Naruto as an excuse?


Wow, you must really hate Sakura to try and use that to demean her character.  Is it so hard to believe that she _didn't_ want Naruto to die?



Ren said:


> Oh any time he isn't: a)having an awkward expression; b)taking advantage of Sakura asking Sasuke out to bring up his own (in chapter 33, if she didn't ask Sasuke out, Naruto wouldn't have either. He'd shut up right there.); c)lying that he was thinking about asking her out, when in reality he was thinking about Sasuke (once again Sakura can't see when Naruto lies to her and vice-versa)


A: He's sixteen.  He's _supposed_ to feel awkward asking girls out.
B: That's only two times.
C: Now you're demeaning Naruto's character to make NaruSaku unlikely.  He could have been thinking about that, then started thinking about Sasuke.  Did that possiblity occur to you?



Ren said:


> Here we go again. I have always said she was a fangirl in the beginning. She clearly got to know him better, she finally got to know that he wasn't perfect, and didn't have the perfect life. What happenned then? She stopped fangirling and fell in love with him.


I was refering to Hinata.



Ren said:


> She didn't understand that. When she found out in the Rescue Gaara arc, she pitied him. First she was only friends with Ino but gained more friends when Ino introduced her to her own, and it wasn't long.


So...her tears for Sasuke are "love tears", but all her tears for Naruto are "pity tears"?  She was told the only way to end the pain the Kyuubi caused him was to kill him.  She was crying because he would always have that hanging over his head.



Ren said:


> No he wasn't. You think you get over the death of someone dear to you just after a pep talk? He working towards avenging Jiraiya, so yeah, it was related.


This is Naruto we're talking about.



Ren said:


> And because of that, she had to be harsh to him, otherwise he wouldn't learn, just like a little kid.
> Just like she punches and insults him. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't respect an Hokage that had a leash put on by his wife.


:rofl
You _must_ be single!  That was rediculess!



Ren said:


> _Are you sure? _He just recently has shown more care for Hinata than Sakura. And he doesn't even know where/how Sakura is. In fact, he grouped Sakura with the rest of the villagers, while caring for Hinata _specifically_. That doesn't tell me much about his true love.


WTF!?
You just negated your own point.  He _knew_ Hinata was right in front of him when he went Kyuubi.  He _didn't_ know where Sakura was.



Ren said:


> What about the "No dumbass!" or "You should be studying ninjutsu if you have the time for that". Are those 'yes'?


I believe I explained those two already:
"If you had the time to do that..."  She doesn't look mad.  She looks amused.  Probably letting him know that he doesn't need to come up with some elaborate plan, he can just ask.
"No, dumbass!"  She's upset that he isn't taking care of himself.  Sleeping in is unhealthy, so is eating all that junk food.  And, on top of that, he can't tell that she's refering to a business call.



Ren said:


> There was no thank you. A thank you that he had never said to anyone, and didn't surprise her at all. Besides, she wasn't devastated when he left or anything like that. Nothing to be bugged about.


Wasn't bugged about him leaving?  Did you miss all the crying!?



Ren said:


> Ignore the part where she says she has researched all she could and more. She is as determined as Naruto is (hence the "Sakura-chan...you too..." from Naruto).


Still don't see how that prooves that she still loves Sasuke.  Knowing what he's planning would be kind of important to _finding_ him.



Ren said:


> Chapter 272, page 17. "No matter how much you resist, no matter what you do! I'll beat you half to death and make you talk about Orochimaru!"


I KNOW!
And I just showed her trying to kill Sasori _without_ learning anything!  The only reason she got any information was because Sasori wanted her to kill Orochimaru.  Notice that she didn't ask for the information after he came near death.  He just gave it to her, and she was _surprised_.



Ren said:


> Go back and reread part 1.


The point isn't if Sakura ever loved Sasuke, but if she still does.  Now, she's showing more concern and care for Naruto than the guy she said "I love you" to.  What could that mean? 



Ren said:


> ...She is researching on Sasuke. On his condition, what caused it.


Well, when she talks about it, she doesn't seem to concerned with how this could harm Sasuke.



Ren said:


> Right, because you fall in love with a person you're not attracted to. If this were true, it would apply to NS.


I recall Naruto saying he "likes" Sakura.  Not that he's "attracted to her".



Ren said:


> It's when
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, that's what I thought you were talking about.  You're right, she did shed one tear.  She's _still_ crying more for Naruto.  Face facts, Naruto is more important to her than Sasuke.



Ren said:


> ATTACKING HIM was better than standing back and watch. She wanted to do something to bring him back, and attacking him seemed to be the only thing she could do for that.
> Has it ocorred to you that they're different types of hitting? Sakura hits Naruto because he does something perverted or bad in her eyes, and Naruto never learns from her.
> Sakura attacked Sasuke because she wanted to bring him back.
> See the similarities? I don't.



Let's see.  She's thinking: "I'll stop Sasuke-kun myself."  Not "bring back"...STOP!  And what did she think just beforehand?  About how she promised _Naruto_ that she would help next time.  Then she glares at Sasuke and tries to break his ribs, or something of that nature.  So who is it that she loves again?


----------



## Hikui (Apr 20, 2009)

I laughed for a while.

Originally, I didn't intend to answer to anyone but I'm bored. 



Black Flicka said:


> so yeah naruto DOES know what sakura's going through but it's not as though he's just given up on her. naruto's far too stubborn to give up on something once he's put his mind to it and sakura is one of his goals. he wants sakura's love and acknowledgment and he wouldn't let go that easily.



I don't think Naruto has ever stated he wanted Sakura as his wife/girlfriend as one of his ultimate goals in life. He wants to be Hokage, he said so, but that's a different story. 

And about his feelings for Sakura, even if he still asks her on dates (that have comic relief purposes), I don't think Naruto is as serious with his feelings for her as so much people say. I don't want to belittle his feelings, but a) He still thinks Sakura loves Sasuke, and respects that (I don't think he would actually make a real serious move on her, for now) b) He probably doesn't know much about real romantic relationships. 

So the extend of his feelings are debatable, hence we are here. 



Black Flicka said:


> also sakura's shocked expression is just showing sakura starting to realize that all this time she's misjudged naruto. that maybe he was never trying to annoy her and hurt her chances at finding love. she's finally beginning to realize how much naruto DOES care about her and how much she means to him. that he would do anything even sacrifice his happiness with her. as long as it would make sakura happy. that's how much naruto loves sakura.



Agreed somewhat. Sakura is grateful for Naruto after realizing that Naruto has been good to her, hence the "thank you" (that was also for his promise, because you're talking about the PoLT, right?)

Also, Naruto was going after Sasuke anyway, so promising her that is just another motivation that he knows will make her happy. That doesn't mean he's going after their teammate just for her. It's a Win-Win situation. It has been covered plenty of times. 



Black Flicka said:


> yet why would sakura BREAK a promise to sasuke(when he told her not to talk about orochimaru and cursed seal). after all at first she denied even seeing the curse seal because of the promise she made to sasuke. yet she was willing to break that promise and confide in naruto because she IS starting to trust him and she's beginning to see him far differently than she did in the past. would sakura have confided in naruto at the beginning of the manga? I bet not.



She tells on Sasuke because she's worried, and she tells Naruto because he trusts him. Is this supposed to be romantic?

Just because Sakura doesn't treat Naruto like trash and considers him her friend doesn't mean she is in love with him....



Black Flicka said:


> I wouldn't say that naruhina doesn't have ANY possibilities, naruhina it's pretty much one sided love like narusaku but the difference between these two is that hinata barely is shown in the anime so I don't think that a character who doesn't show up would end up with a main character that is naruto but still anything is possible, I hope that narusaku still happens though. *sakura needs to cool off her feelings for sasuke and start looking for people who like her and would do anything for her (best example is naruto)*



And Naruto needs to cool off his feelings for Sakura and start looking for people whole like him and would do anything for him (best example is Hinata) 



Black Flicka said:


> Really, not a big deal when they have only had one conversation in the whole manga.
> 
> Here, she says he has he strength to get back up, but when he takes one kick, she's scared to death.
> 
> How much does she truly understand him?



Being worried for him is not knowing him now? :amazed

I've never talked with Naruto (he's fictional, duh) and I understand him. You understand him, and pretty much everyone understand him. Read above. 

And just because Sakura has had a lot more of conversations with Naruto doesn't mean she understands him 100%. You can know someone for years and still never get to understand them. 



Black Flicka said:


> Naruto may have never gotten heartbroken from Sakura's rejections, but is that really his character to get heartbroken?  Is it really his character to plan some super romantic date? When he does get rejected, does he give up? Not at all.



Naruto has been heartbroken.  Just because he fails at something and stands up to continue, doesn't mean he isn't heartbroken. 

As for dates: When you want to do something special for that special someone, it doesn't really matter if it's in your nature to be romantic or not. 

Has it ever occurred to you that he doesn't give up because he doesn't take them seriously. Although, I'll give you that, he isn't easily discouraged (*cough*Sasuke*cough*)



Black Flicka said:


> Or how about someone that sacrifice for you, fully understands you, and knows your flaws but pushes you to be better?  Sounds like an even better person.



Not if that person happens to be in love with your best friend.  (that's what he thinks anyway).

Continue next post....


----------



## Hikui (Apr 20, 2009)

Continuation..


M4verick said:


> Hinata only understands a degree of Naruto, the only degree which she's seen from her distance observing.
> 
> Also, where does Naruto say Hinata understands him?
> 
> And if you want to talk about understanding, the one who probably fully understands Naruto more than anyone else is the manga is Sakura.



So, being worried about him is not knowing him? :amazed
Just because Sakura understands Naruto's feelings for Sasuke doesn't mean she is the one that understands him the most. 

Quite honestly, I think Sakura and Hinata (both) understand Naruto to a degree. But understanding him is different to be able to relate to him, you know. 

I can understand that my friend is sad because her mother died, but I can't understand the real pain of losing my mom because it didn't happen to me. 

Both Sakura and Hinata can relate to him in one aspect, and understand why he does things (Sakura can understand Naruto's extreme loneliness, Hinata can understand Naruto wants Sasuke back) but they can't directly relate to the same experience. 

So no, it's not a valid enough argument. 



Forlong said:


> We can start here, and go on four more pages.  First, she asks how to remove a Bijuu.  She wanted to know if she could get rid of the Kyuubi and end Naruto's pain.  And then she finds out the process kills a Jinchuriki.  There will be no end to Naruto's pain.  And she cries over that.



She can't cry for Naruto without being romantic, now? 




Forlong said:


> Wow, you must really hate Sakura to try and use that to demean her character.  Is it so hard to believe that she _didn't_ want Naruto to die?



a) Naruto wasn't dying. b) She is scared for her life, and even when she doesn't consider Naruto her friend then, she isn't mean enough to want anyone to die... 

She wanted the easy way out: go back. 

You shouldn't take everything to the extreme.



Forlong said:


> C: Now you're demeaning Naruto's character to make NaruSaku unlikely.  He could have been thinking about that, then started thinking about Sasuke.  Did that possiblity occur to you?



I'm answering. That isn't shown, and we are shown his thoughts, so...no. Assumptions differ from cannon. 
~snip~



Forlong said:


> I believe I explained those two already:
> "If you had the time to do that..."  She doesn't look mad.  She looks amused.  Probably letting him know that he doesn't need to come up with some elaborate plan, he can just ask.



Lol. She's amused at Naruto's second comment: "How can you two even stand it at the library, it's uncomfortable there"

Her back is given to us when she says: "If you have time for that you should go study ninjutsu or something," 

She isn't taking him seriously, and what's the Sakura's trademark answer to his requests? Tell him off. 



Forlong said:


> "No, dumbass!"  She's upset that he isn't taking care of himself.  Sleeping in is unhealthy, so is eating all that junk food.  And, on top of that, he can't tell that she's referring to a business call.



Lol, again. She isn't upset about him not taking care of himself. He always eats ramen...she would've said something before it that were the case. 

She reacts like that because he has the nerve to ask for a date when it obviously isn't the case...oh and he's lazing around. Look at her face. 



Forlong said:


> The point isn't if Sakura ever loved Sasuke, but if she still does.  Now, she's showing more concern and care for Naruto than the guy she said "I love you" to.  What could that mean?



That she considers Naruto a close friend now, and Sasuke isn't around. 



Forlong said:


> Well, when she talks about it, she doesn't seem to concerned with how this could harm Sasuke.



Lol,her face looks concerned to me....is interpretation...I guess.



Forlong said:


> I recall Naruto saying he "likes" Sakura.  Not that he's "attracted to her".



It's sort of the same...



Forlong said:


> You're right, she did shed one tear.  She's _still_ crying more for Naruto.  Face facts, Naruto is more important to her than Sasuke.



Tears are different from romantic love, that said don't make assumptions. 



Forlong said:


> Let's see.  She's thinking: "I'll stop Sasuke-kun myself."  Not "bring back"...STOP!  And what did she think just beforehand?  About how she promised _Naruto_ that she would help next time.  Then she glares at Sasuke and tries to break his ribs, or something of that nature.  So who is it that she loves again?



Wrong interpretation. Just a couple of panels a go she is thinking..."Next time I'm going to help too" (bring Sasuke back). The only way to help Sasuke now is stopping him from self-destruction (and others along the way)....and brute force seems to be the only way so far, before they can sit him down to talk (right). 

So yeah, it's her way of helping out. Definitely not a, I'm going to hit Sasuke to show him how much I hate him kind of thing.

I'm out for now. 
Cheers.


----------



## Erendhyl (Apr 20, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Your arguement is a good one.  That could very well happen.
> However, I still find NaruSaku the more likely pairing.  *We know Naruto loves Sakura*, and Sakura cares for Naruto.  It's pretty one-sided on NaruHina.  We don't know how Naruto is going to deal with this.  Hinata or Sakura could become targets for Madara, if Naruto isn't careful.  He also doesn't want to hurt Hinata or Sakura's feelings.  Yes, Sakura would feel hurt on some level knowing Naruto has given up on her.



Do you have any manga confirmation that he loves her? Anywhere that he mentioned _loving_ her, as opposed to just mentioning that he "kind of liked her" in chapter 3 and "realized why he liked her" later on?



> We can start here, and go on four more pages.  First, she asks how to remove a Bijuu.  She wanted to know if she could get rid of the Kyuubi and end Naruto's pain.  And then she finds out the process kills a Jinchuriki.  There will be no end to Naruto's pain.  And she cries over that.



She wanted to remove the Kyuubi? She just found out that Jinchuuriki were used many times for war; do you really think that she wants her teammate to be used like that? She cried when she found out removing it would kill Naruto? She was just told that her close friend and teammate has the options of being used as a human weapon and dying, and you expect her not to cry? Sakura?



> Thank you for prooving my point.  She goes from being nice to being mean.



No. She never actually acted nice towards him. She _planned on_ acting nicer towards him. The only scene between the end of chapter 3, where she plans this, and chapter 4 page 8 is the eraser scene, where Sakura is not mean towards Naruto, but doesn't seem to be particularly nice towards him either. (While she may enjoy pranks internally, there is no visible sign of Sakura either remembering that she is trying to be nicer towards him, or outwardly acting in a significantly different way.)



> Wow, you must really hate Sakura to try and use that to demean her character.  Is it so hard to believe that she _didn't_ want Naruto to die?



It's not hard to believe that she didn't want Naruto to die, but it's also not hard to believe that Sakura, the one who is later shown being initially afraid to sign up for the Chuunin Exams, is also afraid of a mission on which they were just attacked by ninja of Chuunin level that seemed to have no reservations against killing them.



> A: He's sixteen.  He's _supposed_ to feel awkward asking girls out.
> B: That's only two times.
> C: Now you're demeaning Naruto's character to make NaruSaku unlikely.  He could have been thinking about that, then started thinking about Sasuke.  Did that possiblity occur to you?



B: Two times out of... how many in all the manga? I can think of on the way back from the Land of Waves, in chapter 247 after Kakashi ditches them, in chapter 311, and in chapter 350 where she shows up at his apartment. I have a feeling that I'm forgetting at least one during part 1, but even if that's added, that's still two requests out of five.
C: No, Ren is not demeaning Naruto's character. He or she is going with what is presented in the manga and using that for their argument. Naruto is not shown thinking of Sakura _at all_ in that scene until she shows up. Why would he be shown not thinking of her (and instead be shown thinking of Sasuke, who they just failed to rescue in the previous chapter) if he was actually planning on arranging a date for the him and Sakura?



> This is Naruto we're talking about.



Being Naruto does not mean that he's going to get over the death of Jiraiya, someone he traveled with for two and a half years, in under five chapters. He still becomes depressed when Kakashi just mentions Sasuke's name during their repeat of the bell training in part 2, three years after Sasuke actually left. And Sasuke isn't even dead yet.



> I believe I explained those two already:
> "If you had the time to do that..."  She doesn't look mad.  She looks amused.  *Probably letting him know that he doesn't need to come up with some elaborate plan, he can just ask.*
> "No, dumbass!"  She's upset that he isn't taking care of himself.  Sleeping in is unhealthy, so is eating all that junk food.  And, on top of that, he can't tell that she's refering to a business call.



In the later panel where the are discussing Naruto's need to study, she does look amused, but her face is not shown when she's actually telling him to go study ninjutsu. The bolded part, though, is what I actually disagree on. There is nothing to indicate that she is trying to let him know that he doesn't have to create plans for asking her out, as she is still shown being annoyed by the idea in chapter 350 (discussed in the next paragraph).

In the second one, she doesn't get mad until he mentions a date. The link is already in your post, so I won't bother re-linking to it, but if you look, she sees Naruto, sweatdrops for a panel, then has another panel in which she says Tsunade needs them (and appears to have gotten over her initial annoyance with him). Then Naruto asks her out. _Then_, she gets the white eyes of fury and gets ticked off. There was a pause between her being upset over Naruto's poor care for himself and her getting ticked off.



> I KNOW!
> And I just showed her trying to kill Sasori _without_ learning anything!  The only reason she got any information was because Sasori wanted her to kill Orochimaru.  Notice that she didn't ask for the information after he came near death.  He just gave it to her, and she was _surprised_.



Of course she was surprised--do your really expect the guy you were just trying to kill (and succeeded in killing) to _help_ you?! Chiyo was poisoned, had just healed Sakura with a supposedly fatal jutsu, and Sasori was saying he would be unaffected if she died. Chiyo and her condition were far more relevant to what was happening than Sasuke was.



> Well, when she talks about it, she doesn't seem to concerned with how this could harm Sasuke.



How does Sakura not look concerned in those panels?



> Ah, that's what I thought you were talking about.  You're right, she did shed one tear.  She's _still_ crying more for Naruto.  Face facts, Naruto is more important to her than Sasuke.



And she cries for Naruto when? When she hears that he's a Jinchuuriki, and will die if a demon is extracted from him? Because you can't cry if you hear that your friend will be killed? When he's going four-tails, in Sakura's mind because of the pressure of the Promise of a Lifetime, the promise that he made to her? I know that there are definitely more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head, and quantitative data should be provided if you want to make a quantitative conclusion.



> Let's see.  She's thinking: "I'll stop Sasuke-kun myself."  Not "bring back"...STOP!  And what did she think just beforehand?  About how she promised _Naruto_ that she would help next time.  Then she glares at Sasuke and tries to break his ribs, or something of that nature.  So who is it that she loves again?



Sasuke had just electrocuted both Naruto and Sai and they were lying on the ground. Sasuke wasn't just going to sit there and come home quietly. Stopping him would definitely come before bringing him back to the village.

She promised Naruto that she would help next time. What are you trying to say that means? That was right after Sasuke Retrieval, the mission that Naruto went on and she didn't. In other words, the mission where she was unable to help bring Sasuke back. At the Promise of a Lifetime scene, she'd told Naruto that he was her only hope of bringing Sasuke back. In the hospital, she said that she would train so that next time she could do more than just tell him that. I fail to see how that is at all a NaruSaku hint.

As for the fact that she attacked him, Naruto attacked Sasuke at the Valley of the End. Are you trying to imply that Naruto doesn't find Sasuke to be his most precious person?


----------



## DreamZz (Apr 20, 2009)

Okay, so this is probably a very big mistake for me to debate with some of you, but I was reading through some of the posts and couldn't help myself. 

Firstly, character's feelings seem to be dismissed from all 3 pairings when debating-

For NaruHina: Naruto's feelings.
For NaruSaku: Sakura's feelings.
For SasuSaku: Sasuke's feelings.

In N\H, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



We know that Hinata loves Naruto, however you want to percieve it, she herself believes that she truely is in love with Naruto. However, Naruto hasn't shown any affection of romance towards her, and has only just found out how Hinata feels about him. Now, i'm not saying that there is no possibility that NaruHina can have a romantic relationship, but up until Hinata's confession, it was extremely unlikely of that sort of relationship being created, and just because of a confession, it doesn't mean that the tables have dramatically changed. They haven't. Extremely unlikely has changed to possible with the correct interaction and development.


 

In N\S 
*Spoiler*: __ 



We know that Naruto at least has a crush on Sakura, anything more than that is assumption based on certain scenes. It is possible that Naruto is in love with Sakura, however we can not be 100% certain (That's what makes this so unbearably frustrating...). Sakura's feelings are also unknown, but have also been hinted at (depending which side you're playing for results in how you see this, I suppose). They do however deeply care for one another, and whether or not this could lead to romance is not for me to say, BUT they do have a mutual understanding/affection for the other, which is needed for any relationship of any kind.




Now, onto S\S...
*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura confessed her love to Sasuke in part I, and as I stated with Hinata's feelings, Sakura herself believed that she loved him at that time, so I will not go into detail about how her love could have been sincere or might not have. Now another frustrating bit: Sakura may still love Sasuke, or she may not. There has been nothing significant enough to prove or massively hint at either opinions, so no one can say for certain where her feelings stand. Now, we also have Sasuke. As far as we know, Sasuke doesn't like Sakura in that way--At all. It could be debatable for part I (In a crush-sense, or something that could turn into a crush), but ever since destroying or trying to destroy his bonds, I would highly think we would have seen something that would suggest a special care for Sakura *individually* if he did once harbour feelings.


 

Pretty much, all 3 are possible, just some are more possible than others.

Hmm...Onto those posts...


cuteyume said:


> please don't try to compare hinata with sakura when we are talking about problems!our heroine has NO problems!absolutly NO problems she just like to think that she has-please don't bring up the lack of confidence cos hinata will win here too!



I'll admit that Hinata did have her problems...But they were at the same importance of Neji's or Lee's for example. Many characters have some sort of past problems, especially ones that interact with Naruto (The story is revolved around Naruto being accepted and changing people after all), some worse than others, but Sakura does have problems, and I'm not talking about being ridiculed because of her forehead, or that she was weak in comparison to her team or anything from that timeframe. I mean that when Sasuke left, when she found out about the Kyuubi, when her and Naruto failed to bring Sasuke back etc. Sakura lost someone who was very close to her, she then experienced another precious person to her hurting and couldn't really do anything about it. I would call these pretty big problems. So really, if we must compare, I think Sakura's problems are worse than Hinata's, or perhaps are just more focused on. Hinata's problems are pretty bad, but are in no way shown as largely as Sakura's are, therefore paleing them in comparison.
Oh...And what lack of confidence?



cuteyume said:


> hinata can understand better naruto than sakura can!people like to believe that sakura was changed by naruto but they forget that  the first girl naruto changed  was hinata(and he didn't even realized it).
> Hinata said it herself taht she always used to cry a lot and give up but naruto showed her the way!*his smile saved her*!
> i guess it's pointless to debate here since it's obvious that hinata's love for naruto is deeper than the one sakura has for him!and also hinata was the first girl to see the real NARUTO not sakura!



No, she can't. Sakura understands more of Naruto than Hinata does; Hinata mainly knows only one part of Naruto's personality (She has likely seen glimpses of others), she sees him as someone who never gives up, and always tries his hardest. This is a major part of his character, however she hasn't seen him when he is at his most desperate moments, she hasn't seen him in many circumstances. Sakura may not have been there for every moment, but she was there for far more than Hinata. Sakura has also seen how Naruto is affected by his problems (E.g. Kyuubi), all of which leads to, at the very least, somewhat understanding. You can not understand someone unless you truely know their problems and them- That or you have experienced something similar. Since Hinata doesn't know all of him, and doesn't have a detailed idea of what he is going through (We haven't even seen reactions from her that incline she knows about them at all), she can't hope to _really_ understand him. 

Sakura was changed by events that involved Naruto, Sasuke and others close to her's influence. I'm not too sure on who was first, but that has no relevance. Hinata may be the first girl Naruto changed, but what point does that hold?

'Hinata's love for Naruto is deeper than Sakura's?'...I love how different people see 'deeper'. Now I'm not sure if you mean Sakura's love in a romantic or platonic sense, but if we're going by Sakura's platonic love vs Hinata's romantic, I don't see why that makes Hinata's deeper. I don't know why romantic bonds are immediatley classified as deeper than friendship bonds. Look at the SasuNaru bond for example. Even just as a platonic bond, it is _far_ deeper than Hinata's to Naruto. So, why can't Sakura's bond be deeper than Hinata's? Especially considering deeper usually means developed, and Sakura's-->Naruto has been developed more than Hinata's-->Naruto.

... That was longer than expected...


----------



## Saunion (Apr 20, 2009)

On the subject of Naruto's feelings for Sakura somehow only being a silly crush as opposed to the impressive depths of the female characters tru lub:

I wonder how people supporting this notion interpret Naruto's words during the infamous promise of a lifetime scene. "I know how much pain you (Sakura) feel because of Sasuke... I can understand". 

To me it's quite clear Kishimoto, through Naruto's words, is creating a parallel between Naruto's feelings for Sakura and Sakura's feelings for Sasuke; Naruto understands Sakura's pain of being rejected by Sasuke, the one she loves, because Naruto himself has been rejected by Sakura, the one he loves. Therefore if you consider Sakura's feelings for Sasuke as serious romantic love, then I don't see why your opinion on the nature of Naruto's feelings for Sakura would be any different.

So then what's there to discuss? Except if you're willing to argue Naruto is so much of an idiot he doesn't know what he's talking about and, like Yamato everything coming out of his mouth must be dismissed as nonsense and Kishimoto just wasting panel space for shits and giggles, I don't see why this is that much of an issue.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 20, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I don't think Naruto has ever stated he wanted Sakura as his wife/girlfriend as one of his ultimate goals in life. He wants to be Hokage, he said so, but that's a different story.


He's a teenager.  They don't usually think about marrage. 



Hikui said:


> a) He still thinks Sakura loves Sasuke, and respects that (I don't think he would actually make a real serious move on her, for now) b) He probably doesn't know much about real romantic relationships.
> 
> So the extend of his feelings are debatable, hence we are here.


A: Why didn't I think about that?  An excellent point.
B: I've brought that up, but no one thinks it's worth answering.



Hikui said:


> Being worried for him is not knowing him now? :amazed


She wasn't aware of what Naruto could take.  When you say you believe in someone, then later question that; that does indicate that you don't know him well.



Hikui said:


> As for dates: When you want to do something special for that special someone, it doesn't really matter if it's in your nature to be romantic or not.


Naruto has *Jiraiya* as his role model in that respect.  So...yeah...



Hikui said:


> Quite honestly, I think Sakura and Hinata (both) understand Naruto to a degree. But understanding him is different to be able to relate to him, you know.


True.  We desagree on what is right.  Does Naruto belong with Hinata?  As cute as the pairing is, I say no.  The reason because Hinata isn't the stand-up and tough kind of girl that Naruto needs.  Does that mean NaruHina can't happen?  No.  That's just my reason for believing NaruSaku more likely. 



Hikui said:


> She can't cry for Naruto without being romantic, now?


Crying for someone indicates that you care for him.  She's crying more for Naruto than the guy she said "I love you" to...so...she must care about Naruto more than that guy.



Hikui said:


> a) Naruto wasn't dying. b) She is scared for her life, and even when she doesn't consider Naruto her friend then, she isn't mean enough to want anyone to die...


A: Rule number 1 about poison: All poison is Box Jellyfish poison, especially when it _isn't_.  A poison wound should be cleaned on the spot!  So, I'd say Sakura was the one with her head on strait there.
B: Considering that she shielded Tazuna with her body without hesitasion, I ceriously doupt that.



Hikui said:


> I'm answering. That isn't shown, and we are shown his thoughts, so...no. Assumptions differ from cannon.


Well, that wouldn't have exactly been important to the plot.  What Sasuke said was important.



Hikui said:


> Just because he doesn't see her doesn't mean he can't be worried about her, for all he knew Sakura could've died too. But hey, the villagers were alright, no danger!


Yeah, well Sakura wasn't dumb enough to throw herself in danger.  She knows Naruto can't be controled, if he lets a Kyuubi out.  I don't see why he'd be worried about her.



Hikui said:


> Lol,her face looks concerned to me....is interpretation...I guess.


Not about Sasuke.  At least not directly.  She does get worried when she's about to talk about Sasuke dying.  But, hmmm.  No tears?  She becomes a waterfall at the thought of Naruto dying, but can't shed one tear talking about Sasuke dying.



Hikui said:


> It's sort of the same...


Not really.  Forgive me for using real world examples, but that will make it easier.
I like Emma Watson (don't look at me like that).  I think she's cute, witty, and intelligent.  It's a lot more than just her looks.
I _don't_ like Britney Spears, but think she's an attractive person.

You can like someone without finding them attractive, and can find someone attractive without liking them.



Hikui said:


> Tears are different from romantic love, that said don't make assumptions.


Yeah, the guy who ditched her to murder his brother.  Why would she cry over that? 



Hikui said:


> Wrong interpretation. Just a couple of panels a go she is thinking..."Next time I'm going to help too" (bring Sasuke back). The only way to help Sasuke now is stopping him from self-destruction (and others along the way)....and brute force seems to be the only way so far, before they can sit him down to talk (right).


I meantioned that.  It seemed to me like her promise to Naruto was what was important to her.



Erendhyl said:


> Do you have any manga confirmation that he loves her? Anywhere that he mentioned _loving_ her, as opposed to just mentioning that he "kind of liked her" in chapter 3 and "realized why he liked her" later on?


"I will protect Sakura-chan...no matter what!"  To the Japanese, this is better than a declaration of love (from a guy).  It's a sign of not only love, but life long commitment.



Erendhyl said:


> She wanted to remove the Kyuubi? She just found out that Jinchuuriki were used many times for war; do you really think that she wants her teammate to be used like that? She cried when she found out removing it would kill Naruto? She was just told that her close friend and teammate has the options of being used as a human weapon and dying, and you expect her not to cry? Sakura?


Yet she doesn't shed even a single tear at the thought of Sasuke dying. 



Erendhyl said:


> Being Naruto does not mean that he's going to get over the death of Jiraiya, someone he traveled with for two and a half years, in under five chapters. He still becomes depressed when Kakashi just mentions Sasuke's name during their repeat of the bell training in part 2, three years after Sasuke actually left. And Sasuke isn't even dead yet.


So, you can't correct someone, if his teacher died?  I don't see how what she said was mean.  Naruto didn't just burst into tears or snap at Sakura, so I don't see any problem.  In fact, this shows how well Sakura knows Naruto.  She knows he's okay.  He doesn't need to be babied.



Erendhyl said:


> There is nothing to indicate that she is trying to let him know that he doesn't have to create plans for asking her out, as she is still shown being annoyed by the idea in chapter 350 (discussed in the next paragraph).


All right, I'll give you that one. 



Erendhyl said:


> Of course she was surprised--do your really expect the guy you were just trying to kill (and succeeded in killing) to _help_ you?! Chiyo was poisoned, had just healed Sakura with a supposedly fatal jutsu, and Sasori was saying he would be unaffected if she died. Chiyo and her condition were far more relevant to what was happening than Sasuke was.


The point I was trying to make.  Dispite what she said, she forgot it completely durring the fight.



Erendhyl said:


> And she cries for Naruto when?


When she realised that she can only do small, insignificant things for Naruto.



Erendhyl said:


> She promised Naruto that she would help next time. What are you trying to say that means? That was right after Sasuke Retrieval, the mission that Naruto went on and she didn't. In other words, the mission where she was unable to help bring Sasuke back. At the Promise of a Lifetime scene, she'd told Naruto that he was her only hope of bringing Sasuke back. In the hospital, she said that she would train so that next time she could do more than just tell him that. I fail to see how that is at all a NaruSaku hint.


She thinks about Naruto, _not_ the guy she said she loved in part 1.  Naruto was the first person she thought of.  Showed that he's on the top of her priority stack.  You don't think Sakura loves Naruto, FINE.  But how can she still love Sasuke, if another guy is more important to her?



Saunion said:


> So then what's there to discuss? Except if you're willing to argue Naruto is so much of an idiot he doesn't know what he's talking about and, like Yamato everything coming out of his mouth must be dismissed as nonsense and Kishimoto just wasting panel space for shits and giggles, I don't see why this is that much of an issue.



Excellent burn!


----------



## Forlong (Apr 20, 2009)

I'm tired of this, time for the big guns: Starting here.  I'll go page by page.
Page 1 is the cover.
Page 2: The caption says: "Sakura is gripped by an overwhelming anxiety".  The japanese "sound effect" for powerful emotion is used and she grips her heart.
Page 3 & 4: Nothing here.
Page 5: Sakura thinks back to Naruto's promise to her and cries.  Why?  Can't be because of the how far he's willing to go for her.  She's already realised that.  She's pained because this has caused more pain for him than she thought.
Page 6: She continues to cry, but grits her teeth and tries to reach him.
Page 7: "I'll save Sasuke for you!"  She's trying to free him of his promise.  Why didn't she do that before the time skip?  Why do that now?  She didn't think Naruto would do anything harmful to himself to keep his promise.  She's willing to take that risk instead.
Page 8-10: The Kyuubi attacks Sakura.  She's shocked, of course.  She knows Naruto would never hurt her, she expected that of him.
Page 11-16: The rest has little to do with Sakura's feelings for Naruto.
Page 17: Sakura doesn't check her wound.  She just looks at Naruto.  He's her priority.  Is she worried he's hurt?  Unlikely.  She wants to know he's mentally okay.
The next chapter
Page 1 is the cover.
Page 2-5: This part is all about Sai and Orochimaru.
Page 6: Naruto is fine, but Sakura is still sad.  She's upset that she's lead Naruto to do this to himself.
Page 7: She is worried about Naruto's well being.  The Kyuubi isn't healing him as fast as it would.  She feels pain, but works through it.
Page 8: _First_ thing she says afterwards.  She asks Yamato if she could learn that Jutsu.  She doesn't want Naruto to depend on Yamato, but HER.
Page 9: Yamato explains that she can't.
Page 10: She cries.  She wants to do big things for Naruto.  Note that he's singled out.  No meantion of other friends.  Just Naruto!
Page 11: Yamato's declaration.  He's _obviously_ about to say Sakura loves Naruto.  Sakura looks shocked at this.  Surprised that he could see it, maybe?
Page 12: Naruto wakes up and Sakura cries again.  This time it's tears of joy.  Naruto doesn't realize it and assumes Sai hurt her feelings.  He says something stupid and Sakura goes into Tsundere mode.
Page 13-17: The rest is about Sai.

Two whole chapters on Sakura's feelings and two pages on Hinata's.  Who's feelings to you think will end up more important?


----------



## M4verick (Apr 21, 2009)

^^
@Forlong

Great post man.


Hikui said:


> Continuation..
> 
> 
> So, being worried about him is not knowing him? :amazed



Glad I can amaze you, any more shocking truths you would like me to reveal for you?



Hikui said:


> Just because Sakura understands Naruto's feelings for Sasuke doesn't mean she is the one that understands him the most.



Sakura understands that about Naruto, among many other things...(Keep reading to see)



Hikui said:


> Quite honestly, I think Sakura and Hinata (both) understand Naruto to a degree.



True, you can say that.  The degree Hinata understands of Naruto is far less than Sakura's understanding of Naruto.


Hikui said:


> But understanding him is different to be able to relate to him, you know.



Hmm, and although Sakura's loneliness wasn't at the level of what Naruto went through, but she can still relate.

So Sakura understands and relates.



Hikui said:


> I can understand that my friend is sad because her mother died, but I can't understand the real pain of losing my mom because it didn't happen to me.



Yea, there's a word called empathy, look it up.



Hikui said:


> Both Sakura and Hinata can relate to him in one aspect, and understand why he does things (Sakura can understand Naruto's extreme loneliness, Hinata can understand Naruto wants Sasuke back) but they can't directly relate to the same experience.
> 
> So no, it's not a valid enough argument.



Again, pretty off.  Sakura does understand the loneliness he felt...

She also understands, like you said, about wanting Sasuke back, and his reason for why he tries so hard.

Sakura also understands about Naruto being a jinchuuriki(does Hinata even know that Naruto is a jinchuuriki yet?).  Even when Naruto told Sakura, she didn't look too surprised, more like her suspicions were true.
 Naruhina fans like to say the pink haired kunoichi was only researching about Sasuke, but it seems like she was doing her homework about Naruto as well.

And for every single NaruHina fan who uses the "Hinata admired him from the beginning" 

Tsunade's apprentice was the first girl to believe Naruto could become Hokage.  
Even when Naruto told Sakura, she didn't look too surprised, more like her suspicions were true.
(Did Hinata even believe he would get up?)
Even when Naruto told Sakura, she didn't look too surprised, more like her suspicions were true.

Even when Naruto told Sakura, she didn't look too surprised, more like her suspicions were true.


And I can go on with more examples of how much Sakura understands Naruto, while NaruHina fans could keep trying to spin, and get out as much as they can from the couple of interactions of our favorite blond ninja and the Hyuuga heir.


----------



## zantha (Apr 21, 2009)

*ironic*

i have started watching naruto again from the beggining, and i noticed something. 

first i am not sure if sakura ever found out that it was naruto she was talking too, not sasuke. on the day they where made a team. i dont think she knows. so my idea works on that prinacpel. 

sakura felt that she looked diffrent when she was younger, so she trys very hard to fit in. be like the other girls, who the majority of which have a chrush on sasuke. i think her chrush on sasuke at first was a result of wanting to fit in. she probely thought he was good looking thou. 

the first time she gets to spend any time with him he says all the right things, making her go form a chrush, to thinking she is in love with him. 

the ironic part is that it was naruto she was talking too. so in a way she thought she feel in love with sasuke, but it was naruto. so in away it was naruto she liked the whole time. 

poor naruto, he ended up making it harder for himself. 

what do you think.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 21, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> kk....
> i didn't understood were u being sarcastic or something.... O.O
> but i do know that i don't like sasuke very much and if u ask me his destiny is to die alone -.-
> but if naruto wants him back that's fine with me
> ...


i was  very serious 
i can't wait to prove me wrong


----------



## Addams (Apr 21, 2009)

Hinata/Naruto, the girl confessed her love and you can be sure that Kishi did not made that for nothing.

Sakura/Naruto is just a silly childish crush for Naruto, he's already over it anyway.

Maybe Sakura loves him, yes, but who cares ? it's too late for that.

Geez, it's your first shonen guys or something ?


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 21, 2009)

Addams said:


> Geez, it's your first shonen guys or something ?



Never seen a shy girl confess and not get her feelings returned on a shounen ?

If Naruto's crush is so childish why is it still there? For lolz of course, unlike NaruHina whose development is so obvious


----------



## Grasshopper (Apr 21, 2009)

First, I'd like to point out that I don't think Sakura had a crush on Sasuke just to fit in, simply because when she told her friends, none of them thought very much of it, and she was then surprised to find out that a lot of people had a crush on Sasuke.  Whether it was love, or infatuation, I just want to point out the she fell for Sasuke on her own accord.

In the conversation they had - by 'all the right things' I'm assuming you're referring to the charming forehead comment.  Although it probably was the best thing to say, it gets brushed off as a joke, which kills her idea of taking the comment seriously, as well as kills the idea of irony .  Even so, the comment is then said to be 'something Naruto would say' which to me looks like an opening for her to fall in love with Naruto instead .


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 21, 2009)

> Forlong said:
> 
> 
> > Your arguement is a good one.  That could very well happen.
> ...


----------



## Inuhanyou (Apr 21, 2009)

Addams said:


> Hinata/Naruto, the girl confessed her love and you can be sure that Kishi did not made that for nothing.



Of course there was a reason, Hinata's feelings have APPARENTLY, been obvious since the chapter she was introduced, so its a plot point that most likely would need to be resolved anyway, it has no bearing on whether or not he would return her feelings.



> Sakura/Naruto is just a silly childish crush for Naruto, he's already over it anyway.
> 
> Maybe Sakura loves him, yes, but who cares ? it's too late for that.



Lol. I'm sure he is, i'm sure the silly little crush that nobody should take seriously is gone...its been gone since chapter 3 IMO 

Beyond that, though your hypocrisy is showing. So "Hinata woulden't confess her love" is something that woulden't be done for nothing. But "Sakura slowly gaining feelings for Naruto throughout the story even before the time Hinata was even introduced" doesn't matter at all?

Mmhm.



> Geez, it's your first shonen guys or something ?



 Considering your logic, i doubt you'd have room to talk to anyone else about their experience with shounen manga.


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 21, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> please don't try to compare hinata with sakura when we are talking about problems!our heroine has NO problems!absolutly NO problems she just like to think that she has-please don't bring up the lack of confidence cos hinata will win here too!



Last I checked, Sakura does have problems.  She's concerned about Naruto and wanting Sasuke back.  

And isn't the "lack of confidence" an A-NS arguement, not a Pro-NS arguement? 



cuteyume said:


> Hinata wasn't *alone* she was lonely!she had *real problems *because people around her had great expectations from her(and no matter how much she tried it was still not enough!)her father tought she was a  *failure * and that's made her feel insecure and hopeless!



She was alone, until she became a Genin.   And I don't recall "everyone" had expectations for Hinata.  All I remember is that Hiashi had great expectations Hanabi, because she was more gifted than Hinata.



cuteyume said:


> hinata can understand better naruto than sakura can!people like to believe that sakura was changed by naruto but they forget that  the first girl naruto changed  was hinata(and he didn't even realized it).



The manga disagrees with you.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



Chapter 289 and 291: Sakura defends Naruto, understanding his pains.

Chapter 338:  Sakura demonstrates her trust, knowing Naruto would be victorious indefeating Kakuzu.

Chapter 382: she didn't know Naruto enough to know he was okay, while Sakura didn't even have to turn her head back to know that he was okay.

Chapter 404 / 405:  Sakura knows Naruto's in pain after learning of Jiraiya's death.

Chapter 429:  In the midst of destruction, Sakura calls out to Naruto for help.

After he returns, he tells people not to interfere, for they might get hurt.  Sakura knows Naruto not to question it, and everyone but Hinata respects that decision.  And guess what, Hinata nearly gets killed and she later gets publicly embarassed when told she did a stupid thing.  




Compared to that, the only thing Hinata know about Naruto, was his determination to not be a loser (from her stalking him all those years).  



cuteyume said:


> Hinata said it herself that she always used to cry a lot and give up but naruto showed her the way!*his smile saved her*!
> i guess it's pointless to debate here since it's obvious that hinata's love for naruto is deeper than the one sakura has for him!



If you havn't realized it, but that's what Naruto does.  He changes people.   

He gave Hinata courage, he gave Neji compassion, he gave Gaara love, he gave Zabuza honor, he gave the villagers of Konoha understanding, he gave Tsunade compassion, and he gave Jiraiya someone he can believe in.



cuteyume said:


> And also hinata was the first girl to see the real NARUTO not sakura!



I disagree.  Chapter 252, the Kyuubi revelation, Sakura was there when Naruto was persecuted by the villagers for being the Kyuubi. Which was a significant moment in Naruto's past.

All Hinata saw was Naruto's determination to fight that persecution while he was training to pass the Academy.


----------



## Black Flicka (Apr 21, 2009)

ok so sakura still wants sasuke back, but she definitely doesn't want naruto to get killed - she really values him. she was willing to forget about the promise because she knew he did his best, and didn't want the worst to happen as it almost did (of course, I doubt she knows it almost went completely wrong - sasuke trying to kill naruto). another way to look at it is she noticed how badly injured naruto was, and the look in his eyes said it all -he was truly sorry. she wouldn't want him to feel so bad - just like he hates it when she's looking down.

feelings can change, and kishimoto provided NO real basis for sakura's crush on sasuke. she didn't know him well enough in the first place and gushed over how "cool" he was. naruto, meanwhile, liked sakura but didn't understand why. however, when he disguised himself as sasuke and saw the real sakura, he realised that she was the same as him deep inside. he wanted to do anything for her so she could be safe, happy, loved and acknowledged. of course, there is no need to explain that sasuke has no feelings for sakura.

I think it's unrealistic to expect a crush can last for a long time and for true loving feelings to go away quickly. even if Naruto thought he would never get with sakura, it would take him months, even years to get over his feelings. if he even can. while Sakura is already realising her crush for sasuke will never be returned. she just wants to get him back because he is like a brother to her and naruto. (heh well i see him like that)

if naruto hadn't said he still wanted to get sasuke back for her, there's a chance that sakura would have just completely let sasuke go because she didn't feel she had any chance of being able to bring him back. but she completely trusts and believes in naruto, so she feels there is a chance they can bring sasuke back TOGETHER.

if we read all the hints correctly, it's now:

sasuke -> sakura: family
sakura -> sasuke: love (might be turning into family though, she knows sasuke doesn't love her)
naruto -> sakura: love, deepening
sakura -> naruto: deepening feelings
sasuke = naruto: brotherhood

but anyway, while I was thinking on narusaku, why never sakura gets to see the moments when naruto rescues her? one example is when naruto was fighthing gaara, she was unconscious and she though later that sasuke saved her, even in filler we see naruto saving sakura while she is unconscious. it's odd if you think about it for a while since it's like having sakura not noticing naruto's will and love for her in purpose, I think masashi has something store for us, it can't be councidence because it's always like that.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 21, 2009)

Who cares whether Hinata or Sakura did whatever first anymore? It's a question of who does it better and why.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Apr 21, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Who cares whether Hinata or Sakura did whatever first anymore? It's a question of who does it better and why.



Who would you say does it better and why?


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 21, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Who would you say does it better and why?



To be honest I think neither does  but NARUSAKU is far more substantial without any doubt. In the outcome and rendering of its development, NaruHina is an utter fiasco in comparison *dodges bricks*.

Sakura has gained deep understanding of Naruto by being with him.
Hinata has gained more-or-less deep understanding of Naruto by stalking him.

It's not that hard to see which is lacking.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Apr 21, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> To be honest I think neither does  but NARUSAKU is far more substantial without any doubt. In the outcome and rendering of its development, NaruHina is an utter fiasco in comparison *dodges bricks*.
> 
> Sakura has gained deep understanding of Naruto by being with him.
> Hinata has gained more-or-less deep understanding of Naruto by stalking him.
> ...



Relationship wise that's true, but in regards to NH being canon, what's your response to Naruto being an asshole if he rejects Hinata at this point after she got injured?


----------



## Forlong (Apr 21, 2009)

M4verick said:


> ^^
> @Forlong
> 
> Great post man.


  Thank you.  Thank you.



Addams said:


> Hinata/Naruto, the girl confessed her love and you can be sure that Kishi did not made that for nothing.
> 
> Sakura/Naruto is just a silly childish crush for Naruto, he's already over it anyway.
> 
> ...


:rofl
Right, Naruto's feelings are just a crush he's over now.  That's why he's still asking her out on dates, and giving her warm looks.
To late for Sakura?  I've never heard anything so rediculess.  So it won't bug Naruto that going with Hinata will break his best friend's heart (that'd be Sakura)?
I have read other shonen, and I've noticed that lead male characters tend to end up with lead female characters. 



cuteyume said:


> says who?
> you would like to see sakura "the victim" and hinata "the bitch" that steals her man!
> dear god how uncute that is...


So you're saying there's _no_ romantic developement for NaruSaku?  Read the manga!



cuteyume said:


> have you noticed that every single time hinata is around she's hell  worried for naruto more than sakura ever was?
> You've been warned.
> see the difference?


I noticed _Sakura_ asking if Naruto is okay.  And Sakura knows she doesn't have to worry about Naruto.  She *did* see Naruto make a frickin' crater with one jutsu.


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 21, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I don't think Naruto has ever stated he wanted Sakura as his wife/girlfriend as one of his ultimate goals in life. He wants to be Hokage, he said so, but that's a different story.



True, Naruto said he wanted two things:  To become Hokage and to be acknowledged as the Greatest Ninja of all times.  But because he never declares he loves Sakura, doesn't means he doesn't love her.

If you notice, we knew Sakura loved Sasuke, but she never said she loved him until that day he left.  And the same goes for Hinata as well.



Hikui said:


> And about his feelings for Sakura, even if he still asks her on dates (that have comic relief purposes), I don't think Naruto is as serious with his feelings for her as so much people say. I don't want to belittle his feelings, but a) He still thinks Sakura loves Sasuke, and respects that (I don't think he would actually make a real serious move on her, for now) b) He probably doesn't know much about real romantic relationships.
> 
> So the extend of his feelings are debatable, hence we are here.



Aside from the Naruto respecting Sakura's love for Sasuke, do you have anything that can back up those other claims?



Hikui said:


> Just because Sakura doesn't treat Naruto like trash and considers him her friend doesn't mean she is in love with him....



Manga and the Databook disagrees.  Sakura sees Naruto in a different light than that loudmouth idiot.  And she's starting to fall in love with that person.

And who was there by Sakura all the time?   It was Naruto.



Hikui said:


> And Naruto needs to cool off his feelings for Sakura and start looking for people whole like him and would do anything for him (best example is Hinata).



Poor excuse for NaruHina to be canon, don't you think? 



Hikui said:


> Being worried for him is not knowing him now?


I'm sure people would bring out how Sakura was worried when Naruto went Mini-Kyuubi against Orochimaru.  But it's not the same with Hinata's worrying.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura's worrying for Naruto was literally because he became a monster and she knew it was out of pain.

With Hinata, her worrying demonstrates a "lack of faith" because she doesn't really know Naruto.   

For example, in Chapter 382, Naruto is knocked in the puddle and she's worried, while everyone knows he was okay and was unharmed.

In Chapter 437, Hinata is worried for Naruto and disregards his order because she sees his life in danger.  And she nearly gets killed because of it.  Not only that, she gets chewed out by Sakura.....again.






Hikui said:


> And just because Sakura has had a lot more of conversations with Naruto doesn't mean she understands him 100%. You can know someone for years and still never get to understand them.



But yet Sakura has demonstrated in the manga many times she does understand Naruto.  



Hikui said:


> Naruto has been heartbroken. Just because he fails at something and stands up to continue, doesn't mean he isn't heartbroken.
> 
> As for dates: When you want to do something special for that special someone, it doesn't really matter if it's in your nature to be romantic or not.
> 
> Has it ever occurred to you that he doesn't give up because he doesn't take them seriously. Although, I'll give you that, he isn't easily discouraged (*cough*Sasuke*cough*)



Opinons my dear.  Show us facts.  



Hikui said:


> Not if that person happens to be in love with your best friend. (that's what he thinks anyway).



And yet, there is the possibility that Sakura could fall in love with Naruto.  



Hikui said:


> So, being worried about him is not knowing him? :amazed
> Just because Sakura understands Naruto's feelings for Sasuke doesn't mean she is the one that understands him the most.
> 
> Quite honestly, I think Sakura and Hinata (both) understand Naruto to a degree. But understanding him is different to be able to relate to him, you know.
> ...



More than Hinata and Sakura can relate to Naruto you know.   Iruka, Haku, Jiraiya, Neji, Gaara, and ...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Kabuto all relate to Naruto.

And seems Pain is going to be the latest to relate to Naruto as well.




Hinata only relates to Naruto's determination to be acknowledged, not his loneliness.

But with Sakura, there is more than just their loss of Sasuke.   Sakura too strived for acknowledgement like Naruto and Hinata has, where she wanted to be acknowledged by Sasuke (and later Naruto's hope gave her to train over the timeskip).

Also, Sakura knows Naruto more than people give her credit for.  She knows Naruto's pain of loss and defened him when Sai and Kabuto criticsized him.   And she knows how much Pain Naruto is in when it comes to loss and being treated baddly because of the Kyuubi.  Hinata doesn't know about Naruto's pain.




Hikui said:


> Lol. She's amused at Naruto's second comment: "How can you two even stand it at the library, it's uncomfortable there"
> 
> Her back is given to us when she says: "If you have time for that you should go study ninjutsu or something,"
> 
> She isn't taking him seriously, and what's the Sakura's trademark answer to his requests? Tell him off.



Didn't know teasing was the equivalent to telling someone off.   



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> She reacts like that because he has the nerve to ask for a date when it obviously isn't the case...oh and he's lazing around. Look at her face.



You are supposed to spoiler tag everything that hasn't happened in the anime yet, you know.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



Please read Chapter 350 again.  Naruto didn't ask her out, he assumed she was there for a date (it was their day off).






Hikui said:


> That she considers Naruto a close friend now, and Sasuke isn't around.



I seriously doubt Sakura wouldn't stop regarding Naruto as a close friend once Sasuke is back.  



Hikui said:


> Tears are different from romantic love, that said don't make assumptions.



You should not criticsize others for assuming when you have been doing that yourself.  



Hikui said:


> Wrong interpretation. Just a couple of panels a go she is thinking..."Next time I'm going to help too" (bring Sasuke back). The only way to help Sasuke now is stopping him from self-destruction (and others along the way)....and brute force seems to be the only way so far, before they can sit him down to talk (right).
> 
> So yeah, it's her way of helping out. Definitely not a, I'm going to hit Sasuke to show him how much I hate him kind of thing.



Sakura was enacting on her vow that Naruto wasn't going to bear all the burden in bringing back Sasuke.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 21, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Relationship wise that's true, but in regards to NH being canon, what's your response to Naruto being an asshole if he rejects Hinata at this point after she got injured?



Naruto being an asshole :rofl no one can force Naruto do anything, let alone love someone he doesn't. There's a thing called gratitude. I don't know how many times Naruto has got his ass kicked for Sakura, but it's not as if she fell in love with him [arguably] for it. There are other examples. Oh but NaruHina is the _exception_


----------



## m o l o k o (Apr 21, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> > says who?
> > you would like to see sakura "the victim" and hinata "the bitch" that steals her man!
> > dear god how uncute that is...
> 
> ...


----------



## Inuhanyou (Apr 21, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Naruto being an asshole :rofl no one can force Naruto do anything, let alone love someone he doesn't. There's a thing called gratitude. I don't know how many times Naruto has got his ass kicked for Sakura, but it's not as if she fell in love with him [arguably] for it. There are other examples. Oh but NaruHina is the _exception_



If that's how you feel izzy, then what would you say is the most likely scenario to happen after all of this is over and done with?


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 21, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> If that's how you feel izzy, then what would you say is the most likely scenario to happen after all of this is over and done with?



I'm too SasuNarutarded to give an answer to that question on this thread B:. I don't think he'll reciprocate Hinata, but I can't say whether NaruSaku is going to happen either.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Apr 21, 2009)

^ Thats all that i needed to know anyway  

With NaruHina's development, and the way things had been going just prior to the recent chapters, its just not likely for me to see NaruHina being cast into a plausible enviorment, especially considering that Hinata herself is not exactly the center of the universe, so that the plot would slow down in order to give time to have the pairing actually make sense.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 21, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> ^ Thats all that i needed to know anyway
> 
> With NaruHina's development, and the way things had been going just prior to the recent chapters, its just not likely for me to see NaruHina being cast into a plausible enviorment, especially considering that Hinata herself is not exactly the center of the universe, so that the plot would slow down in order to give time to have the pairing actually make sense.



I see you got my jist without me having to word it. If NaruHina happened, it would be lame and still second to other relationships in the manga.
*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't see how a romantic relationship can start after needing a borderline suicide to confess romantic feelings without any prior nuanced mutual involvement for over 200 chapters


----------



## Hikui (Apr 22, 2009)

And the disaster continues  
Lol.



Forlong said:


> A: Why didn't I think about that?  An excellent point.



It is, isn' it?



Forlong said:


> She wasn't aware of what Naruto could take.  When you say you believe in someone, then later question that; that does indicate that you don't know him well.



Lolz. And believing in someone so much you're blind enough to notice that person is in serious trouble of dying is knowing someone. I bet that if Hinata had believed in Naruto that way, everyone would be saying Hinata didn't care enough for Naruto to go help. 

Even if Naruto is the strongest ninja in the world, Hinata will always be worried about him. It's not a matter of not believing in him, really. 

I'm always worried for my bf whenever he goes into a tournament (martial arts), even when I know he's very capable (he's won 1st places and all), and that doesn't mean I don't know him/don't love him. 

Your mom can be the one that believes in you all along, and she'll always be scared for whatever happens to you. 

Look at the bigger picture. Kishimoto didn't make Hinata do that so people can say: "Hahaha, Hinata doesn't know Naruto and is helping him when he can on his own!" Of course not! 

And Sakura didn't help because she 'believed' in Naruto. I mean, she did believe in Naruto, but she couldn't see what was going on...so she didn't know Naruto was incapacitated and about to be taken. She knew Naruto was fighting pain, she didn't know, exactly, what was going on. If she had known Naruto's situation in the other hand.....but hey! that's hypothetical and I'm not going there. 



Forlong said:


> True.  We desagree on what is right.  Does Naruto belong with Hinata?  As cute as the pairing is, I say no.  The reason because Hinata isn't the stand-up and tough kind of girl that Naruto needs.  Does that mean NaruHina can't happen?  No.  That's just my reason for believing NaruSaku more likely.



Says who? All we know is: Naruto likes people who want to be acknowledged. That's all. 



Forlong said:


> Crying for someone indicates that you care for him.  She's crying more for Naruto than the guy she said "I love you" to...so...she must care about Naruto more than that guy.



Disagree. Besides, we don't really know how much Sakura has cried for Sasuke....we only know she has cried for Naruto several times because he was there. And for Sasuke/Team Seven, once. I don't think you should make this kinds of claims. 



Forlong said:


> Yeah, well Sakura wasn't dumb enough to throw herself in danger.  She knows Naruto can't be controled, if he lets a Kyuubi out.  I don't see why he'd be worried about her.



Why wouldn't he be worried about her, he technically blew up the village! But hey, she's with the villagers she's fine (sorry, couldn't resist. Don't take this seriously). 

You say Sakura isn't dumb enough to throw herself in danger. She was dumb enough to go after Naruto!4tails....



Forlong said:


> Not about Sasuke.  At least not directly.  She does get worried when she's about to talk about Sasuke dying.  But, hmmm.  No tears?  She becomes a waterfall at the thought of Naruto dying, but can't shed one tear talking about Sasuke dying.



They didn't say Sasuke was dying but that he was using 'bad' methods to get stronger. 

Then again, tears doesn't equal powerful love. Hinata hasn't cried for Naruto (I think) but she's the character with the strongest romantic feelings (that are showed). 



Forlong said:


> I meantioned that.  It seemed to me like her promise to Naruto was what was important to her.
> 
> "I will protect Sakura-chan...no matter what!"  To the Japanese, this is better than a declaration of love (from a guy).  It's a sign of not only love, but life long commitment.



Hinata practically gave her life for Naruto, if that's not love I don't what is (that's the ultimate sacrifice for Japanese, and if it just happens to be romantic it multiplies tenfold). I can promise "I will protect my brother...no matter what!" and not be romantic. 

But yeah, he promised that...so did Lee...now tell, are Lee's affections for Sakura on the same boat?

Fun debating with you! 	:ho

continue next post...


----------



## Hikui (Apr 22, 2009)

Tyrannous, I see you're back  



Tyrannos said:


> True, Naruto said he wanted two things:  To become Hokage and to be acknowledged as the Greatest Ninja of all times.  But because he never declares he loves Sakura, doesn't means he doesn't love her.



Because Sakura hasn't declared again her love for Sasuke, doesn't means she doesn't love her! See how that works?



Tyrannos said:


> Aside from the Naruto respecting Sakura's love for Sasuke, do you have anything that can back up those other claims?



My own interpretation, it's pretty much in the same boat with the NaruSaku interpretation of Sakura's feelings for Naruto. I could be wrong, so could everyone. 




Tyrannos said:


> Manga and the Databook disagrees.  Sakura sees Naruto in a different light than that loudmouth idiot.  And she's starting to fall in love with that person.



Databook says Sakura sees Naruto different, does that means it's romantic? Not. And who says she's starting to fall in love with him? 




Tyrannos said:


> Poor excuse for NaruHina to be canon, don't you think?



I was using Forlong's same excuse against him. 



Tyrannos said:


> I'm sure people would bring out how Sakura was worried when Naruto went Mini-Kyuubi against Orochimaru.  But it's not the same with Hinata's worrying.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





Why does everyone has to transverse everything she does? Kishimoto didn't do that so people could "infer": She doesn't know him, hence doesn't deserve him. 

She was worried for him because, he was apparently losing, pinned down with no means to move, and about to be taken. That is cannon. 



Tyrannos said:


> For example, in Chapter 382, Naruto is knocked in the puddle and she's worried, while everyone knows he was okay and was unharmed.



That's just how she is. She's a a worrywart. And and excuse for Kishimoto to give her more panel time. 



Tyrannos said:


> But yet Sakura has demonstrated in the manga many times she does understand Naruto.



Yeah I guess, unfortunately is still debatable.  




Tyrannos said:


> Opinons my dear.  Show us facts.


We're on dear basis, now? s 
That said, I'll say the same for NaruSaku love relationship. 





Tyrannos said:


> And yet, there is the possibility that Sakura could fall in love with Naruto.



Just that there's a possibility that Naruto falls for Hinata, and vise versa. 



Tyrannos said:


> More than Hinata and Sakura can relate to Naruto you know.   Iruka, Haku, Jiraiya, Neji, Gaara, and ...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Exactly my point! 



Tyrannos said:


> Hinata only relates to Naruto's determination to be acknowledged, not his loneliness.
> 
> But with Sakura, there is more than just their loss of Sasuke.   Sakura too strived for acknowledgement like Naruto and Hinata has, where she wanted to be acknowledged by Sasuke (and later Naruto's hope gave her to train over the timeskip).
> 
> Also, Sakura knows Naruto more than people give her credit for.  She knows Naruto's pain of loss and defened him when Sai and Kabuto criticsized him.   And she knows how much Pain Naruto is in when it comes to loss and being treated baddly because of the Kyuubi.  Hinata doesn't know about Naruto's pain.



Sakura knows because she was there, that is unfair . But I'll give you that. My point was, everyone understands Naruto to some extent, and Sakura even when she understands him might not be necessarily he one that understands him the most. That's all I wanted to say. (But I agree with your argument). 



Tyrannos said:


> Didn't know teasing was the equivalent to telling someone off.


Just another way (more gentle) to say no. And it's not the same, I was lazy.




Tyrannos said:


> You are supposed to spoiler tag everything that hasn't happened in the anime yet, you know.



Oh my, I always forget. Thanks. 



Tyrannos said:


> I seriously doubt Sakura wouldn't stop regarding Naruto as a close friend once Sasuke is back.


Me too.



Tyrannos said:


> You should not criticsize others for assuming when you have been doing that yourself.



I guess, but at least I don't state it as cannon. 




Tyrannos said:


> Sakura was enacting on her vow that Naruto wasn't going to bear all the burden in bringing back Sasuke.



She was. 

Great debate!
I'm off for now!


----------



## saasha (Apr 22, 2009)

sweets. said:


> @Saasha
> 
> Told ya I'd be back for more. :ho



Bring it on. 





> _Throughout the whole VOTE fight; Sasuke was slipping bit by bit by thinking of his past memories with Itachi and his family and those from Konoha. He explained more during combat then to Sakura who was staring at his backside._


_

*Exactly what I'm trying to get at. Sasuke lets his guard down in front of Naruto in extreme situations only -in the heat of a battle as angered as he is, not to mention under the influence of curse seal lvl 2 or when he's dying.  which to me seem like he only opens up more, due to the circumstances rather than due to the person himself. You might be satisfied with this but I require more, if ever a romantic connection b/w them is to be established. * shrug* Imo, Sakura alone has managed to make sasuke let his guard down & attempt to make Sakura understand his actions.*




			where do you think Sakura gets the "why don't you tell me anything?" from?
		
Click to expand...


*From actual truth. Sasuke doesn't tell her anything or more accurately doesn't tell her enough. Anything he has let slip, he has done reluctantly and she knows it. What she is trying to do there, is to get him to tell her more. A very good probing question & it did get him to talk more about himself.*




			Sasuke doesn't throughly explain his reasonings for almost anyone but during that battle with Naruto; he gives him much more than what he said to Sakura, explaining more on his past ambitions and it all tied to his new goal. "My dream is in the past, not in the future with my comrades"- Sasuke and esp. when he so called gets enraged with Naruto; 'you've never had a family! what the hell would you know? huh?' (or something around those words). He's implying that he's mad due to his loss of his family specifically.
		
Click to expand...


*I remember. My argument above still stands.  

Also, If there's there's one thing I've learnt from this Manga is that there are different kinds of loneliness & different kinds of pain. No one can understand or relate to one another completely but they sure can come to a compromise. I'm not sure where I'm going with this but what I'm trying to say is that even Sasuke & Naruto don't understand each other completely. 

They understand each other's pain of loneliness but there are aspects of the other that they cannot relate with as well. Each & every bond in the Manga is like that, which is why I don't hold one bond's significance over the other. They are all significantly important imo. While the Sasunaru bond may be focused on more ( it basically drives the plot), I don't believe other bonds are less important than it. Sry, I uh, went on a tangent of my own with this even though your post didn't ask for it, heh, heh.*





Excuse me for saying that 'friends' and comrades weren't of a similar definition.
*Comrade*1. a person who shares in one's activities, occupation, etc.; companion, associate, or friend 
*Friend*
one of the definitions; a member of the same nation, party, etc. 

Click to expand...



* Sry, but like the definitions indicate, comraderie has a wider definition than friends. People can be comrades without any emotional ties holding them together.  A perfect example of plain comradeship is the present team Hebi. They don't have an emotional connection binding them together like Team 7 did & yet they look out for each other as good comrades do. Team 7, all had an emotional connection with each other. Are you trying to liken the Sasusaku bond to simple comradeship? similar to what Team Hebi has now? If so, I would have to respectfully disagree.*




			Does this fit Sasuke's stance of Sakura? I never said SASUKE DIDN'T CONSIDER A FRIEND; I said that THEIR BOND wasn't that of a 'functional friendship' (meaning little to nothing grew in the mutuality area that wasn't in combat)
		
Click to expand...


*I'm sry, but I'm still finding this contradictory. How can there be no mutuality when they both considered each other as  their important people? 
I am not talking about romantic mutuality here. They may not have had a functional friendship but they had a functional relationship (not rooted in friendship or romance) which only started deteriorating after oro vamp-bit Sasuke, just like the sasunaru bond. * 






			Just because Sasuke's half was 'good comradeship' doesn't mean it wasn't important to him; just not in a significance of let's say Naruto; but I suppose you get the jist of that because that's a whole different relationship you'd have to scope into.
		
Click to expand...


*
I already explained my stance on the very broad term that is 'comradeship' & also how I don't hold one bond's significance over the other just because it is focused on more & is basically what drives the plot.*




			Each T7 member as a different meaning to Sasuke, but all important and to me; it's easiest to see the most significant due to it's more vivid development - Naruto/Sasuke. You have a right to disagree, but please explain more on why you'd think this way instead of just giving me opinion like most do.
		
Click to expand...


*I believe I unintentionally answered this already, but I'll copy/ paste it again for you.

Also, If there's there's one thing I've learnt from this Manga is that there are different kinds of loneliness & different kinds of pain. No one can understand or relate to one another completely but they sure can come to a compromise. I'm not sure where I'm going with this but what I'm trying to say is that even Sasuke & Naruto don't understand each other completely. 

They understand each other's pain of loneliness but there are aspects of the other that they cannot relate with as well. Each & every bond in the Manga is like that, which is why I don't hold one bond's significance over the other. They are all significantly important imo. While the Sasunaru bond may be focused on more ( it basically drives the plot), I don't believe other bonds are less important than it. Sry, I uh, went on a tangent of my own with this even though your post didn't ask for it, heh, heh.*_


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## saasha (Apr 22, 2009)

CONTD.

*We're at an impasse here. Imo, the reason he couldn't turn back was because they were too important to him. His defection, in my eyes was a necessity, a necessity to protect them, to keep them away from the bloody mess that his past was, to fulfill his duty to his clan, to his brother & to himself, & to learn how to supress his curse seal, courtesy of orochimaru. He forced himself to sever his bonds with them, only to find out several hundred chapters later, that he never managed to do it at all. They still are his most important people to my knowledge.  *



> _ Where do you get this from? Don't use the 'Sasuke left to protect them/ they were too important arguement' because Sasuke left out of own selfishness and greed for power to kill Itachi. _


_ 

*From the manga. I agree that he left because he desired power to kill Itachi but what I disagree on is that this decision was purely selfish. He has plenty of reasons to kill Itachi, his supposed selfishness being the least of them. Simply put youself in his shoes & you'll see. It's Psychology.
- Duty to his clan. Loyalty to his Clan. An Obligation he can't free himself of if he possesess even an ounce of a conscience
- Survivor's Guilt. I wasn't strong enough to protect them. I should have died along with them. I don't deserve to live a normal life when I am partly responsible for everyone's death's.
- Goaded on by his brother to hate & kill him. Knowledge that he alone is cpable of defeating the monster that he deemed Itachi to be. The burden to kill Itachi is his alone, his brother, his sin,no one else can do it. I am the only one who can. Killing Itachi would bring peace not only to his clan but also redemption to himself as well as his demented brother who needed sasuke to kill him to free him of his guilt.
-Did Sasuke have any guarantee that if he ever settled down to a normal life with Team 7 & rebuilt his clan that His demented bro would never come back to test his capabilities on his loved ones again? Did he have the right to subject Team 7 & his family to the trauma of another massacre when he could have prevented it instead of living a carefree life for himself? *




			The Sound Four had forced much anger and desperation for killing Itachi, which triggered his leaving to go to Orochimaru to get that power to tell him.
		
Click to expand...


*They did. They also mentioned that his inexperienced use of the curse seal was consuming him, causing his to slowly lose himself resulting in his death. Orochimaru would teach him to use this power to his advantage without sasuke having to lose himself or dieing. A very strong argument. It is quite obvious to me why Sasuke felt defecting to Orochimaru was a necessity. *





			Sasuke knows that leaving them caused him to be unhappy and he was fine with that; he was willing to sacrifise and utterly demolish those bonds to reach that goal. Their importance to him couldn't matter anymore if he wanted to reach that goal. Their bonds distracted him from that; so by saying that 'I'm different from you all, I can't be traveling the same path as you guys' he was inferring that he can't be traveling the same path due to the fact that he is a avenger, and that was now his goal.
		
Click to expand...


*Yes. The way I see it, he decides to break his bonds with them, because they were becoming too important to him. They were tempting him to live a normal carefree life, a life that he couldn't yet afford to live not until he accomplishes his goal; not until all obligations to his past are fulfilled & not until all threats to his loved ones & future are obliterated.

Considering all things, I'd definitely say that it was a necessity. It was a painful choice for all parties involved but definitely a necessity. No matter which way I look at it, the way Kishi has presented all the facts regarding Sasuke's departure compels me to see his defection as a necessity. It remains consistent with Sasuke's character. I've never seen him as a selfish or self- absorbed individual. His interactions with Team 7 support this fact.*





			" Up until now, we've done everything as a group. But there is something else... I must do... " 
" Deep inside my heart, I've decided on revenge; For that reason ONLY, do I live..."
"I'll never be like you or Naruto"- Sasuke.

How is Sasuke not talking about his own selfish deeds, and screwing over the fact that they were of importance? They were different people with different goals; those in which those two can't be of because he has to do this ALONE.
		
Click to expand...

_
*Like I said, while he is doing everything for revenge, you are mistaking his reasons for revenge. It isn't as simple as ' you screwed up my life, Itachi, & so I'll screw your's'. There is more to it than that, like I've already explained. 

His decision to carry his burden alone, I can't help but see it as being stupidly noble. Sooner or later, he's going to realize that there is nothing wrong with having people who love you, help you with your goal.  There's no way Naruto, Sakura & Kakashi ( he's alive, he cant die before he meets sasuke. I'm fervently hoping it's sasuke that saves him while Naruto's busy with nagato. Maybe even Sakura turns up or somethin. heh heh * crosses fingers*)) will let him do everything on his own. *




> _ I don't mind the fact that since Sakura's feelings hardly are in the light anymore that you'd think that she'd still love Sasuke romantically, however you have to take in the fact that her feelings for Naruto are indeed changing; however I can't say how explicitedly because that hasn't been elaborated enough yet. That is why I'd call her relationship with both Sasuke and Naruto more ambigious than it is just precise with on Sakura's Prt I 'love' for Sasuke and Naruto's out of the question; as some would say. _



*I can't see how Sakura's feelings for Naruto are stepping into romantic territory. Until Kishi says it is romantic, it remains platonic in my eyes. *




> Contradictory yourself my good friend ;
> _ Comparing SasuSaku to NH._



*Not Quite. I didn't compare their relationship dynamics which are worlds apart.*


*I'll get to the rest next time.*


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## Miss Happy (Apr 22, 2009)

Forlong said:


> So you're saying there's _no_ romantic developement for NaruSaku?  Read the manga!




 i've read that manga so many times that i'm tired of it!
why don't you read it in my place?


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 22, 2009)

If it isn't one of my favorite SasuSaku debaters. Warning, this may sound rough but it's not intended to offend you personally, just for me to make some things _clear_ once and for all to why I can't take such SasuSaku pairing arguements seriously, esp in comparison to the pairing that shall not be named.



saasha said:


> *Exactly what I'm trying to get at. Sasuke lets his guard down in front of Naruto in extreme situations only -in the heat of a battle as angered as he is, not to mention under the influence of curse seal lvl 2 or when he's dying.  which to me seem like he only opens up more, due to the circumstances rather than due to the person himself. You might be satisfied with this but I require more, if ever a romantic connection b/w them is to be established. * shrug* Imo, Sakura alone has managed to make sasuke let his guard down & attempt to make Sakura understand his actions.*



Ok now the VotE or whatever emotionally significant scene Sasuke had with Naruto is fodder.
*Spoiler*: __ 



NaruHina SO didn't need drama or the heat of battle for its confession, lol! Sasuke giving up his life for Naruto over revenge isn't as meaningful...!


Let's ignore they didn't have a relationship that was introduced with OMG MY TRULUV!! and they couldn't help getting closer to each other despite said grudges. When they're in the forest training together during the Haku arc and in the training scenes brought up in the VotE they are not connecting at all, duh, cos so-called *brothers* and *bestfriends* cannot open to each other. SasuNaru isn't capable because subtlety which gives them something more sure than words isn't comparable to the self-centered avenger monologues Sasuke gives to Sakura when she just _asks_ for it, lol. Their feelings for each other mean nothing since they are merely confirmed by dramatic outbreak, lol, and covers. Sai, Gaara, Haku, Kakashi, Sakura, Neji, even Orochimaru/Kabuto [and don't make me use Databook-sama] - everything they've had to say in regards to such bond is trivial! Naruto goes apeshit with Kyuubi so many times, like when Orochi says Sasuke is _his_, cos he obviously doesn't have a dynamic of significant sort with Sasuke. It's not like Naruto is putting aside his greatest dream or anything...a boy wishing on a star for another one can't compare to that crescent moon that has been seen in SasuNaru scenes too...click if you dare...<-- That's the hugest crescent moon in the entire friggen manga. Oh. But that's just because it's part of nature, lol. Oh not AGAIN!!
Sasuke is forced to react to Naruto because of the circumstances - which is why SasuNaru fails and SasuSaku doesn't~~~!
this one
this one
Do I need to even mention how shamelessly every Big 3 pairing would use that as evidence if it referred to their pairing?

It doesn't get more *obvious* than that. I'm sick and tired of SS's constant lack of objectivity for the sake of what isn't proved to be there in contrast to SasuNaru, an _omnipresent_ and undefinable [imo] relationship. I suggest SS [with NH] sticks to NaruSaku instead of comparing itself to the uncomparable. It's sad - for your pairing, not mine.

It's also clear that Part 2 Sasuke SMILES at bridges all the time for sport and to take up panel spaceLoL that Naruto so doesn't get under that avenger's skin. Nope. I dare to defend an abusive, run on drama, in denial relationship with characters that cannot relate in ways significant for romance [aka hogwash]!


I just think you need to stare at that a bit.

*Spoiler*: _FFFFFFFFFodder_ 






And of course Naruto's reactions or feelings about the guy that called him his bestfriend don't have any say when it comes to Sasuke, cos you know, Naruto's just dumb after all. Saying Sasuke recognized his worth more than anyone has no evidence at all except in dramatic situations  SasuNaru is based only on drama, they aren't repressing anything and could never have the lovely deep conversations like the ones of SasuSaku!!! Naruto and Sasuke have NEVER bonded on a normal level!!
[Sasuke's reactions to Naruto don't matter]
^Sasuke winning his first Chuunin match after Naruto's prompting is just _one_ example of that. There's even a panel where Sasuke blushes just because Naruto looked at him - and he even bothers to flashback it during his 'death' scene!! See, I can go down to this level of evidence if you want me to since you do bother to do so with SasuSaku.





> They understand each other's *pain of loneliness* but there are aspects of the other that they cannot relate with as well.



I'm curious to hear which those are that SasuSaku has that Sasu/Naru doesn't. I want you to honestly look at that panel and say what you think it means. Clue: Naruto understands and relates to Sasuke more than anyone else and wishes to protect him [Sasuke got away I'm weak BOOO HOOOOO at the end of the reunion anyone?]
*Spoiler*: __ 



even PEIN brought his relation/understanding he had of Sasuke up!


 Are you noticing a certain trend? Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is far more significant with or without the PLOT!!! The story is not about Naruto and Sasuke, they are about the story.

Sasuke faced Naruto as an equal after Naruto confessed that to him - that is mile progress for my standards of any relationship.Then he emphasized the pain of loneliness he'd feel breaking from Naruto - and said it was what would have made him stronger. How Naruto reacts to such words in a plot significant way is confirmed by recent chapters.
Oh but dramatic moments are fodder, even if Sakura said Sasuke wouldn't be interested in Ino cos she isn't strong and acknowledging Naruto would have jabbed Sasuke's pride and life reason.



> Each & every bond in the Manga is like that, which is why I don't hold one bond's significance over the other. They are all significantly important imo. While the Sasunaru bond may be focused on more ( it basically drives the plot), I don't believe other bonds are less important than it. Sry, I uh, went on a tangent of my own with this even though your post didn't ask for it, heh, heh.



Yep, SasuNaru isn't more significant since it gets focus, that blabbering Gaara did about Sasuke being Naruto's important person who he fought for before the VotE was for the lulz. 
It's obviously not because the relationship is actually deeply MUTUAL. No no. Not to mention the more depth given to their relationship less romantic vaildity it has. Naruto definitely isn't pissed here cos Sasuke is rejecting him; esp since covers [<-- see side-liner] are only valid for SasuSaku...because because because - romance has never shone so bright.Well have fun watering things down in attempt to obliterate SasuNaru's potential [cos yeah, you'll totally win by pwning SasuNaru instead of NaruSaku on a Big 3 debate thread] for the sake of what continues to prove to be absent.

Sorry if this turned into a LAP, but Sasu/Naru has too much support I don't understand how anyone could brush it off without even using _actual_ evidence for their comfortable pairing assumptions. Just cos others don't see the holes since all the Big 3 is so used to scrapping up whatever, doesn't mean SasuNaru can be treated like something lacking [let alone in _few_ romantic senses, such as lust] because of shounen. It has enough chemistry, potential, and dynamic to be _anything_ involved with stimulation.


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## skygunner41 (Apr 22, 2009)

According to newest databook 3 it seem sakura like >> sasuke and worry about >> naruto.IMO naruto already give up on sakura because he had no chance what so ever to break the bond between sakura and sasuke....thus poal is the indication of that white flag.


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## Farih (Apr 22, 2009)

skygunner41 said:


> According to newest databook 3 it seem sakura like >> sasuke and worry about >> naruto.IMO naruto already give up on sakura because he had no chance what so ever to break the bond between sakura and sasuke....thus poal is the indication of that white flag.



Databook 3 also implies, in three different parts of Sakura's profile, that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are "budding" and that she might be developing romantic feelings for her childhood friend.

And in the databook 3 chart, which you are using as if it were as canon as the manga, Hinata's arrow to Naruto says "she looks up to him", and as we all know now...


*Spoiler*: __ 



She's in love with him.




So I don't recommend using the DBs as your only credential for why NaruSaku won't happen.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 22, 2009)

As farihstar said, databooks are crap, so don't use em in debates because they won't really prove anything when said arguments are dispelled.

Naruto has never shown that he gave up somehow on Sakura, not even once. NaruSasu may be canon and everything, but beyond them, NaruSaku has been shown to be the second strongest and most often emphasized bond in the series. NaruHina, and SasuSaku won't work simply because they have had "confessions" or whatever as opposed. There's a difference between subtle development that builds up, and "in your face" actions such as 437, and as sure as that is, the latter hardly makes a pairing canon.


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## Tyrannos (Apr 22, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Tyrannous, I see you're back.


 
Tyrant's always are around, until they either die on their own or they are vanquished. 



Hikui said:


> Because Sakura hasn't declared again her love for Sasuke, doesn't means she doesn't love her! See how that works?


 
"She doesn't love her"? 

People here sometimes like to bring up that moment in Chapter 4 where they give their aspirations and use that as a possible foreshadow of what Kishimoto has planned for the end.

-Naruto becomes a powerful Hokage and to be acknowledged.
-Sasuke kills Itachi and resurrects of the Uchiha clan.
-Sakura, well she never said anything, just giggled. (Implying Sasuke). The only thing certain she says is that she hates Naruto.


*Spoiler*: _The Future_ 



Recently, Naruto has gained that acknowledgement of the villagers and has achieved his dream in becoming stronger than a Hokage. All that remains is him becoming the Rokudaime Hokage.

Sasuke had long killed Itachi, but he continues on the path of revenge (which Kakashi foreshadowed in Chapter 177). As for the resurrection of the Uchiha clan, after what's happened, as much as SasuSaku and Uchiha fans might hate me to say this, but to me it looks like Sasuke might not resurrect the Uchiha clan, due to what has happened with the rebellion and Madara.

With Sakura, well she's done a complete 180 with Naruto, going from outright hated to someone she greatly cares about.




So they are indeed foreshadows, but not everything is going to be what people expect it to be. 



Hikui said:


> My own interpretation, it's pretty much in the same boat with the NaruSaku interpretation of Sakura's feelings for Naruto. I could be wrong, so could everyone.


 
You shouldn't degrade NaruSaku fan's beliefs when everyone here is on the same boat, including SasuSaku and NaruHina fans.



Hikui said:


> Databook says Sakura sees Naruto different, does that means it's romantic? Not. And who says she's starting to fall in love with him?


 
Databook disagrees with your assessment. 


			
				Sakura's DB3 Profile said:
			
		

> *[naruto]*
> In her childhood, Sasuke was the object of her yearning, then loving feelings. Naruto was just that annoyance that would force itself between Sasuke and her, and ruin the day in some fashion. But looking back on the past after a few missions handled together, Sakura suddenly realized. In her painful moments, when she'd abandoned even the will to live, the one who'd protect her and encourage her was Naruto, the supposedly annoying one... *What feelings does she harbor towards Naruto?... As of now, Sakura hasn't found the answer.*


And NaruSaku fans can easily point to Chapter 343 as one of the signs that Sakura's starting to realize things.



Hikui said:


> Why does everyone has to transverse everything she does? Kishimoto didn't do that so people could "infer": She doesn't know him, hence doesn't deserve him.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


 
Hey, tag those spoilers! 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Because Hinata ran up to Naruto to save him and confess, doesn't mean that NaruHina is canon. 

BTW, if this is romantic, then those who hate NaruSaku must admit Sakura running up to the Kyuuubi is indeed a romantic moment.  It’s no different than Sakura running up to Sasuke and hugging him in the Forest of Death. 

Come to think of it, seems Kishimoto is purposely doing this to keep all NS, SS, and NH fans on their toes. 



Again, Hinata didn't listen to Naruto and nearly got her ass killed. And then she got talked down for doing it.

As for Naruto, he got out of those spikes on his own (with the Kyuubi's help). So he surely could've gotten out of it without Hinata's help.






Hikui said:


> That's just how she is. She's a a worrywart. And excuse for Kishimoto to give her more panel time.


 
Odd to see a NaruHina fan say such things about Hinata. 



Hikui said:


> Yeah I guess, unfortunately is still debatable.


 
I disagree, the manga clearly shows Sakura understands Naruto.



Hikui said:


> We're on dear basis, now?
> That said, I'll say the same for NaruSaku love relationship.


 
I can easily turn this around and have you prove NaruHina's as well. From our end, NaruHina only has 4 significant moments: Test 1, the Prelims, the Finals, and Recently. 

While NaruSaku has a ton more, which I'm sure NaruSaku fans would be all too obliging to list out those moments.. 



Hikui said:


> Just that there's a possibility that Naruto falls for Hinata, and vise versa.


 
To be honest, I have better odds in winning the lottery. 

Inspite of what happened, recently, for NaruHina to be canon, requires Naruto to shift his affection to her (and away from Sakura).  Given the remaining plots ahead, having time to develop that relationship.  Which I honestly don't realistically see occurring.

The last possibility of NaruHina is Kishimoto throwing her together with him at the end.

Frankly, NaruSaku and SasuSaku has more momentum in the romantic department than NaruHina anyhow. 



Hikui said:


> Sakura knows because she was there, that is unfair. But I'll give you that. My point was, everyone understands Naruto to some extent, and Sakura even when she understands him might not be necessarily he one that understands him the most. That's all I wanted to say. (But I agree with your argument).


 
Well I will admit, Sakura might not know every single thing, but she knows a great deal about Naruto than others give her credit for. 



Hikui said:


> I guess, but at least I don't state it as cannon.


 
Not sure on others, but I typically cite the moments in the manga in the arguments to assure I'm correctly stating the facts to those I'm debating with, and if I have to interpret, I do so explaining why.


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## Forlong (Apr 22, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Lolz. And believing in someone so much you're blind enough to notice that person is in serious trouble of dying is knowing someone. I bet that if Hinata had believed in Naruto that way, everyone would be saying Hinata didn't care enough for Naruto to go help.


I was refering to this (note: it contains spoilers).  Not her self sacrifice.



Hikui said:


> And Sakura didn't help because she 'believed' in Naruto. I mean, she did believe in Naruto, but she couldn't see what was going on...so she didn't know Naruto was incapacitated and about to be taken. She knew Naruto was fighting pain, she didn't know, exactly, what was going on. If she had known Naruto's situation in the other hand.....but hey! that's hypothetical and I'm not going there.


NaruSaku shippers were making that point several pages ago. 



Hikui said:


> Why wouldn't he be worried about her, he technically blew up the village! But hey, she's with the villagers she's fine (sorry, couldn't resist. Don't take this seriously).


Pain was the one who blew up the village.



Hikui said:


> You say Sakura isn't dumb enough to throw herself in danger. She was dumb enough to go after Naruto!4tails....


I said that she wouldn't have then.  I didn't say she didn't learn that the hard way.



Hikui said:


> They didn't say Sasuke was dying but that he was using 'bad' methods to get stronger.


They mention the possiblity of him dying here.  Well, they _almost_ say it, but it's obvious what Naruto is about to say.



Hikui said:


> Then again, tears doesn't equal powerful love. Hinata hasn't cried for Naruto (I think) but she's the character with the strongest romantic feelings (that are showed).



*Spoiler*: __ 



Right after she found out Naruto was okay. 






Hikui said:


> Hinata practically gave her life for Naruto, if that's not love I don't what is (that's the ultimate sacrifice for Japanese, and if it just happens to be romantic it multiplies tenfold). I can promise "I will protect my brother...no matter what!" and not be romantic.
> 
> But yeah, he promised that...so did Lee...now tell, are Lee's affections for Sakura on the same boat?


Yeah, but Sakura isn't Naruto's sister, is she?  Lee's feelings aren't in the same boat as Naruto's because there's no progression.  We see indications of Hinata's feelings for Naruto prior to the love confession (which no one is spoiler tagging, I might add); but nothing for Lee's feelings towards Sakura.



Hikui said:


> She was worried for him because, he was apparently losing, pinned down with no means to move, and about to be taken. That is cannon.


That is certainly the case in his fight against Pain.  He did get pummled for a little while there.  He's still better than Sasuke though. 



Hikui said:


> That's just how she is. She's a a worrywart. And and excuse for Kishimoto to give her more panel time.


True.  Though, if she is meant to be Naruto's love interest, Kishimoto-sensei shouldn't have to make an excuse to give her panel time.



Hikui said:


> We're on dear basis, now? s


Don't worry, I won't tell your boyfriend.


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## Forlong (Apr 22, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Hey, tag those spoilers!
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


So many people have neglected to spoiler-tag that, I don't think it counts as a spoiler anymore. 



Tyrannos said:


> I can easily turn this around and have you prove NaruHina's as well. From our end, NaruHina only has 4 significant moments: Test 1, the Prelims, the Finals, and Recently.
> 
> While NaruSaku has a ton more, which I'm sure NaruSaku fans would be all too obliging to list out those moments..


I brought that up before and no one said anything.  What's up with that?  I'll just re-post it:
Starting here.  I'll go page by page.
Page 1 is the cover.
Page 2: The caption says: "Sakura is gripped by an overwhelming anxiety".  The japanese "sound effect" for powerful emotion is used and she grips her heart.
Page 3 & 4: Nothing here.
Page 5: Sakura thinks back to Naruto's promise to her and cries.  Why?  Can't be because of the how far he's willing to go for her.  She's already realised that.  She's pained because this has caused more pain for him than she thought.
Page 6: She continues to cry, but grits her teeth and tries to reach him.
Page 7: "I'll save Sasuke for you!"  She's trying to free him of his promise.  Why didn't she do that before the time skip?  Why do that now?  She didn't think Naruto would do anything harmful to himself to keep his promise.  She's willing to take that risk instead.
Page 8-10: The Kyuubi attacks Sakura.  She's shocked, of course.  She knows Naruto would never hurt her, she expected that of him.
Page 11-16: The rest has little to do with Sakura's feelings for Naruto.
Page 17: Sakura doesn't check her wound.  She just looks at Naruto.  He's her priority.  Is she worried he's hurt?  Unlikely.  She wants to know he's mentally okay.
The next chapter
Page 1 is the cover.
Page 2-5: This part is all about Sai and Orochimaru.
Page 6: Naruto is fine, but Sakura is still sad.  She's upset that she's lead Naruto to do this to himself.
Page 7: She is worried about Naruto's well being.  The Kyuubi isn't healing him as fast as it would.  She feels pain, but works through it.
Page 8: _First_ thing she says afterwards.  She asks Yamato if she could learn that Jutsu.  She doesn't want Naruto to depend on Yamato, but HER.
Page 9: Yamato explains that she can't.
Page 10: She cries.  She wants to do big things for Naruto.  Note that he's singled out.  No meantion of other friends.  Just Naruto!
Page 11: Yamato's declaration.  He's _obviously_ about to say Sakura loves Naruto.  Sakura looks shocked at this.  Surprised that he could see it, maybe?
Page 12: Naruto wakes up and Sakura cries again.  This time it's tears of joy.  Naruto doesn't realize it and assumes Sai hurt her feelings.  He says something stupid and Sakura goes into Tsundere mode.
Page 13-17: The rest is about Sai.

Two whole chapters on Sakura's feelings and two pages on Hinata's.  Who's feelings to you think will end up more important?




Tyrannos said:


> Inspite of what happened, recently, for NaruHina to be canon, requires Naruto to shift his affection to her (and away from Sakura).  Given the remaining plots ahead, having time to develop that relationship.  Which I honestly don't realistically see occurring.


And that dog's name is "Bingo"!


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## Hikui (Apr 22, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I was refering to this (note: it contains spoilers).  Not her self sacrifice.


I know, she was still worried. That doesn't mean she doesn't believe in him. But, I guess we should agree to disagree. 



Forlong said:


> Pain was the one who blew up the village.


Yeah, what I meant was when Naruto went Kyuubi the village was sort of blown up again. 

this So I meant this, 



Forlong said:


> They mention the possiblity of him dying here.  Well, they _almost_ say it, but it's obvious what Naruto is about to say.



If you say so. 



Forlong said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Right after she found out Naruto was okay.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I didn't notice there were tears! :amazed Okay, she cried once. (Haha, that's just cute )






Forlong said:


> Yeah, but Sakura isn't Naruto's sister, is she?  Lee's feelings aren't in the same boat as Naruto's because there's no progression.  We see indications of Hinata's feelings for Naruto prior to the love confession (which no one is spoiler tagging, I might add); but nothing for Lee's feelings towards Sakura.



Do we really see progression from Naruto's feelings when all he does is ask her out on dates (lamely..)? You could count the PoLT, I guess, but I'm still not convinced because doing that for Sakura is like a bonus, he wants Sasuke back for himself too. 

I think this is the main argument everyone always goes about, isn't it?



Forlong said:


> True.  Though, if she is meant to be Naruto's love interest, Kishimoto-sensei shouldn't have to make an excuse to give her panel time.



Welcome to shonen, love is rarely the theme so if that's the main driving force behind Hinata's development/actions (the fact that she's not a main character doesn't help much...), all panel time he could come up with is valuable. 



Forlong said:


> Don't worry, I won't tell your boyfriend.


You better not.


----------



## Hikui (Apr 22, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> "She doesn't love her"?
> 
> People here sometimes like to bring up that moment in Chapter 4 where they give their aspirations and use that as a possible foreshadow of what Kishimoto has planned for the end.
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I agree, not everything will be as stated in the begging. I'm almost certain about Naruto living to be Hokage. I'm not so sure about Sasuke, if he's not dying...he will have redemption. As for SasuSaku's future...I would prefer to be surprised. And even when Sakura has done a complete 180 about Naruto, I just don't think their relationship will be romantic. (Yeah, you could say I'm hoping for Hinata's happy ending) But hey, we all have our own "future".  






Tyrannos said:


> You shouldn't degrade NaruSaku fan's beliefs when everyone here is on the same boat, including SasuSaku and NaruHina fans.



I didn't intend to degrade, I just said what was true. That belief is something I came up with my interpretation, just like you've come up with "Sakura is in love with Naruto, now" by your own interpretation. It's not cannon. 

And yeah, we're all sort of in the same boat. 




Tyrannos said:


> Databook disagrees with your assessment.
> ​And NaruSaku fans can easily point to Chapter 343 as one of the signs that Sakura's starting to realize things.



Sorry, I don't debate Databooks. And that's your own interpretation. Sakura's flashback mentions Sasuke, I can't believe this interpretation 100%, sorry. 



Tyrannos said:


> Hey, tag those spoilers!
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I know NaruHina is not cannon, thanks. 
I can't agree that's is romantic when Sakura never stated as so, and the fact that she had close to nothing of follow up (that isn't up to interpretation). And that thing about SasuSaku is romantic because Sakura had already stated she had romantic feelings for him. SO, her actions (Sakura's) towards Naruto might have been romantic, but I don't think so. 






Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Again, Hinata didn't listen to Naruto and nearly got her ass killed. And then she got talked down for doing it.



Where?



Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> As for Naruto, he got out of those spikes on his own (with the Kyuubi's help). So he surely could've gotten out of it without Hinata's help.



Doubt it. 



Tyrannos said:


> Odd to see a NaruHina fan say such things about Hinata.


I try to be as unbiased as I can.  That and I don't think it makes Hinata's character less worthy. 



Tyrannos said:


> I can easily turn this around and have you prove NaruHina's as well. From our end, NaruHina only has 4 significant moments: Test 1, the Prelims, the Finals, and Recently.
> 
> While NaruSaku has a ton more, which I'm sure NaruSaku fans would be all too obliging to list out those moments..



All I can prove is that Hinata has strong romantic feelings for Naruto and infer that from that relationship love can get to blossom. All NaruSaku can really prove to me is that Naruto likes Sakura (and has feels a strong friendship for her). 

What I don't like about NaruSaku, is that there's lots of people out there claiming there's a romantic bond when there clearly isn't, as of yet. 




Tyrannos said:


> To be honest, I have better odds in winning the lottery.


That's your opinion. 



Tyrannos said:


> Inspite of what happened, recently, for NaruHina to be canon, requires Naruto to shift his affection to her (and away from Sakura).  Given the remaining plots ahead, having time to develop that relationship.  Which I honestly don't realistically see occurring.




*Spoiler*: __ 




Imho, I find NaruSaku happening quite unlikely now. Sakura realizing her feelings now is too late, and being the kind of person she is I don't see her confessing (if she has those feelings). 
Mainly, because Hinata did a better job of protecting Naruto than she ever did (in her mind). (She understands the depth of her feelings). If she confessed now, it would mean character regression. She can't be selfish.  In her mind, Hinata would be more worthy (this is a big issue for her) and if being the way she is, she would probably step aside, hoping for his happiness (whether that is or not). That, and she would probably be hated by lots of people if she intervenes, you just don't meddle in that. SO quite frankly, making NaruSaku cannon now, would make Kishimoto's story a lot more complicated in the romance department and I don't think he's that skilled to pull it off (in romance).






Tyrannos said:


> The last possibility of NaruHina is Kishimoto throwing her together with him at the end.



Agreed, quite frankly I don't see any of the big 3 happening until Naruto saves Sasuke. Naruto can't have a honest romantic relationship with anyone if Sasuke is his "most important person". 



Tyrannos said:


> Frankly, NaruSaku and SasuSaku has more momentum in the romantic department than NaruHina anyhow.



That's your opinion. 



Tyrannos said:


> Not sure on others, but I typically cite the moments in the manga in the arguments to assure I'm correctly stating the facts to those I'm debating with, and if I have to interpret, I do so explaining why.



So do I.


----------



## Esmereina (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't see any romantic bonds as of yet..for any of these pairings.  Why?

well its simple...for is to be a "bond"  it has to be mutual...otherwise its not a bond.  

I only see hinata in love wit naruto (does not equal a bond..at all...has to be mutual )
Naruto liking sakura and has a deep connection with Sasuke. (can be bonds just not definitive in a romantic level)
Sakura liked Sasuke in pre-timeskip but now seem to focus more on Naruto. (SS could still be a bond..but not in a romantic level... unless Kishi develops it more in post time skip)

none of these constitute a factual romantic bond.   These thing only can lead to a potential of it.  

although, in my humble opinion... because this is about Naruto... I can see either NaruSaku...or NaruSasu for a potential canon.  Naruto liking Sakura is important..and so is his deep connection with Sasuke.  

Because Sakura is slowly coming to realize why she is concerning herself more with Naruto... I can only predict that sooner or later she is going to understand that she does love Naruto..and would evaluate that love with her love of Sasuke... and most likely she will see that her love for Naruto is more so now... She might be at a point of giving up on Sasuke romantically.  (this is only speculation)

and Hinata's feelings shouldn't be the basis of a "romantic" bond..especially since the manga is not about her.  I never see love confessions as romantic bonds until the other person responds with "I love you too".... Clearly Naruto did not say that...so chapter 437 should not be a basis of anything... unless in the end there is clear Naruhina... then you can use 437....until then... 437 is just another plot device.  (ofcourse this is just my opinion... i don't care for others to share the same view if they don't want to)


that my arguement about this..^^;   in all honesty... i have little faith in any pairings being canon from the rookie 9.... but i can assure you there will be atleast hinted possible pairings in the end... its all up to Kishi.


----------



## saasha (Apr 22, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> If it isn't one of my favorite SasuSaku debaters. Warning, this may sound rough but it's not intended to offend you personally, just for me to make some things _clear_ once and for all to why I can't take such SasuSaku pairing arguements seriously, esp in comparison to the pairing that shall not be named.



Hello again, Izzy. Aww, thanx, You're one of my favourite debate buddies as well. Don't worry abt it. I'm pretty thick skinned. I can respect your opinion if you can respect mine. Though, I see that most of what you are challenging are points that I never made or implied. But I take it, this is more of a general/personal rant?





> Ok now the VotE or whatever emotionally significant scene Sasuke had with Naruto is fodder.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Sasunaru & Naruhina are two dynamically different relationships based on different sentiments. It's funny but you know, I haven't come across a single sasusaku-er or naruhina-er in this thread that has ever dismissed the emotional significance of the sasunaru bond but I see the sasunaru-ers & narusaku-ers dismiss the emotional significance of the sasusaku bond & the naruhina bond on a daily basis. Double standard much? When will people learn that to form a romantic connection, you don't need to be someone's bestfriend? The sasunaru bond is not fodder but you know what, neither are the sasusaku bond or the naruhina bond.  





> Let's ignore they didn't have a relationship that was introduced with OMG MY TRULUV!! and they couldn't help getting closer to each other despite said grudges. When they're in the forest training together during the Haku arc and in the training scenes brought up in the VotE they are not connecting at all, duh, cos so-called *brothers* and *bestfriends* cannot open to each other. SasuNaru isn't capable because subtlety which gives them something more sure than words isn't comparable to the self-centered avenger monologues Sasuke gives to Sakura when she just _asks_ for it, lol.Their feelings for each other mean nothing since they are merely confirmed by dramatic outbreak, lol, and covers.



I am sorry but this has to be said. As much as I love sasunaru, I cannot deny that all of the subtlety that you claim is steeped in romantic sentiments can just as easily be interpreted as a strong familial bond. I am sorry, but all of the romantic subtlety has to be interpreted by the fans who wish to interpret it this way. I give you ( & me) that there is strong basis for such a interpretation but if you take all the manga facts & authorial intent, the sasunaru bond was never meant to be interpreted as romantic. Manga facts state that that Naruto considers Sasuke to be his brother & MS that Sasuke desired implies that Naruto is Sasuke's closest friend after Itachi. 

Nowwhere is romance implied. A strong familial bond b/w them is completely believable to me just as a romance would be if it were so implied or if either naruto or sasuke were so inclined, which they're not. In any case, we aren't supposed to be debating sasunaru here & since we are both entitled to our opinions, we need to stop discussing this further. Truthfully, I don't wish to debate against sasunaru since I like it as well, but I dont like it when sasunaru is used to dismiss sasusaku, especially when it is an equally valid pairing, if not more.







> Sai, Gaara, Haku, Kakashi, Sakura, Neji, even Orochimaru/Kabuto [and don't make me use Databook-sama] - everything they've had to say in regards to such bond is trivial! Naruto goes apeshit with Kyuubi so many times, like when Orochi says Sasuke is _his_, cos he obviously doesn't have a dynamic of significant sort with Sasuke. It's not like Naruto is putting aside his greatest dream or anything...a boy wishing on a star for another one can't compare to that crescent moon that has been seen in SasuNaru scenes too...click if you dare...<-- That's the hugest crescent moon in the entire friggen manga. Oh. But that's just because it's part of nature, lol. Oh not AGAIN!!



I don't remember having ever used the crescent moon in any of my arguments. The crescent moon may or may not have any significance. I dont know; Therefore I will not talk about things I do not know for sure.



> Sasuke is forced to react to Naruto because of the circumstances - which is why SasuNaru fails and SasuSaku doesn't~~~!
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Do I need to even mention how shamelessly every Big 3 pairing would use that as evidence if it referred to their pairing?



I didn't mean to say that Naruto has no influence on Sasuke. They've both had the strongest influence on each other. Look, it is a fact that the Sasuke that fought against Naruto at VOTE was not completely himself. A curse seal influenced Sasuke that doesn't know how to control it, has all of his emotions amplified & running rampant, pain, anger, rage, hatred, love, he tends to react extremely violently, right? That is all I meant when I said due to circumstances, not that sasunaru fails because of this which it obviousily doesnt. A normal Sasuke rarely lets his guard down, which is why, I find it more significant that a normal Sasuke felt pressurized enough by 'annoying' lil Sakura to show cracks in his safely guarded emotional barrier.   




> It doesn't get more *obvious* than that. I'm sick and tired of SS's constant lack of objectivity for the sake of what isn't proved to be there in contrast to SasuNaru, an _omnipresent_ and undefinable [imo] relationship. I suggest SS [with NH] sticks to NaruSaku instead of comparing itself to the uncomparable. It's sad - for your pairing, not mine.



I see no reason to comply with your suggestion. I do not see sasunaru as uncomparable nor do I see it as undefined. The Manga has defined their bond. You choose to see it as undefined. If you are sick of SS's lack of objectivity, I am equally sick of some SN & NS's  lack of objectivity, dismissal, hypocrisy & doublestandardness for the sake of what isn't proved to be there. 



> It's also clear that Part 2 Sasuke SMILES at bridges all the time for sport and to take up panel spaceLoL that Naruto so doesn't get under that avenger's skin. Nope. I dare to defend an abusive, run on drama, in denial relationship with characters that cannot relate in ways significant for romance [aka hogwash]!



Smiles at bridges all the time is a definite exaggeration. In any case, I personally believe that just because the bridge is called 'Naruto' doesn't mean that Naruto is the only one he is thinking of. You don't have any proof that the only thing that crossed his mind was Naruto, it could be a memory of Team 7, because Naruto wasn't the only one he bonded with back then, you know. You can scoff at my opinion because it is different from yours but that still doesn't make your opinion any more right than it does mine because neither of us have real concrete proof. 



> I just think you need to stare at that a bit.



Sakura says that Naruto is the only one now who can stop Sasuke which is the truth. She tried & failed. Kakashi wasn't around. Naruto was the only one who could beat some sense into Sasuke cos that's the Naruto way. And the result?  He also failed. They all failed when they tried to bring him back individually. Next time, they plan to bring him back together. That is what has been foreshadowed for Part two. It is obvious that Naruto will play the biggest part but I expect the rest of Team 7 to play their own lil part in bringing him back as well. 

If you are trying to imply romance with the 'only you' by oro, sakura & neji then do I take it that the 'even you' by sasuke & Shikamaru implies romance as well?


----------



## saasha (Apr 22, 2009)

CONTD



> *Spoiler*: _FFFFFFFFFodder_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I sincerely don't believe Naruto & Sasuke are repressing any romantic feelings for the other, though I can see how it could possibly be argued so, atleast for Naruto. Also, I never said that Sasuke & Naruto never bonded on a normal level. In fact, I think they did plenty of bonding on the normal level, more so than any other bond. They're best friends for Christ's sake. To be honest, I don't think he ever felt the need to guard himself as strongly against Naruto, simply because, Naruto wasn't asking for romantic reciprocation from him. Imo, he was more comfortable with Naruto because there was nothing romantic abt their relationship. Sakura was asking him to feel something he couldn't afford to feel as an avenger. He couldn't give her what she was asking for, hence the cracks in the emotional barrier he has up against sakura; hence the exposition, an attempt to explain his reluctance to respond to her feelings.     






> [Sasuke's reactions to Naruto don't matter]
> ^Sasuke winning his first Chuunin match after Naruto's prompting is just _one_ example of that.



You need to reread that match against that sound nin. Naruto's prompting wasn't the reason he won his first Chuunin match. It was Sasuke's strong will & desire to not worry both Sakura & Naruto. It was a Team 7 moment, whether you like it or not.  

Wait, sry you're talking abt the one with Gaara? If so, how do you figure that Naruto's prompting was the reason sasuke won his match, which he didn't actually win, since he never got to finish it, because chaos happened & his curse seal got activated.





> There's even a panel where Sasuke blushes just because Naruto looked at him - and he even bothers to flashback it during his 'death' scene!!



*sigh* you really tend to take things out of context sometimes you know. Sasuke didn't blush because Naruto looked at him. _Sasuke blushed because he was embarrased at wanting to know the tips Naruto learned from Sakura._



> I'm curious to hear which those are that SasuSaku has that Sasu/Naru doesn't.
> 
> That entire paragraph about the significance of bonds was supposed to be about all bonds in general, not shipping related. Imo, all bonds are equally significant in their own way. Romance to me, isn't dependant on which bond is supposedly the strongest bond in the entire series. No one is able to relate to another completely, be it sasunaru, sasusaku, narusaku or naruhina, but that doesn't mean that they cannot relate to atleast a few aspects of the others needs.
> 
> ...


----------



## saasha (Apr 22, 2009)

Btw, I really like your avatar & sig, they're are sooo fluffy & cute.




sweets. said:


> *Sasuke has only ever called her annoying twice, both times for significant reasons. The first one brought out positive development in Sakura. The second one actually drove the point home that he didn't forget their first interaction like he pretended to. Neither felt like 'backlashing one character's love for another.*
> _ Right after Sakura got called annoyed she felt depressed and thought about how Naruto felt. So the life lession for today was ....? Treat others the way you want to be treated; she was talking about Naruto being unruly and annoying, and went too far about him not having parents, which related to Sasuke and irritated him and to say the least; "Your annoying" came up. How is this a life lesson? It's not because she still treats Naruto pretty harsly during Prt1.  After so, I never see her trying to train harder in anything other than her looks  If your going by positive influence you need to go with the Naruto direction. _


_

It is significant because Sasuke got her to take a second look at her actions. No one changes their behaviour overnight or at a snap of their fingers. The first step to maturity & change is always recognising & admitting your faults which Sakura did due to Sasuke's rebuke. People need to cut Sakura some slack here. She did try, not very hard but her prejudiced dislike for Naruto isn't going to simply disappear just like that, even if the boy she likes chides her for it. Not to mention any sane girl would be rude to a boy who constantly makes unwanted romantic advances like Naruto does with Sakura. 




			The second time; I presume Sasuke didn't just say that to imply he remembered the past experience because like you said; Sasuke is brutally honest .  Maybe he did but there was no way to distinguish this from his true opinion on her; which was that she was annoying.
		
Click to expand...


Sasuke is brutally honest, but you are obviously not looking at the context of the scene if you actually believe that Sasuke meant she was annoying in the same harsh way as when he said it on their first real interaction, which as you can see he didn't forget, which in turn means that he was pretending, not being brutally honest. Then again, there are multiple reasons why someone is annoying to you, you know, not all the reasons have to be bad. 









 That's your opinion that I respect because as a Anti-NS; there isn't really much a serious romantic material for this pairing to seem COMPLETELY accurate; but to me there's more than the others of the Big 3 which is why I prefer it to the others. I think Kishi could've done numerous tactics to make this pairing have atleast a more clearer approach than it does now; but that's why I say that this pairing is ambigious as well. 

Click to expand...


Hmm..... Kishi could have, but he didn't. The material it does have is great for a friendship, but as a romantic relationship, it is sorely lacking, imo. To be honest, liking Narusaku as a pairing is alright & all, but I am at a loss as to why it is one of the big three. * dodges & munches on the tomatoes thrown at me*  Imo, I really don't see it as being in running for canon at all, the manga direction isn't pointing towards it & I've never thought it ever did after the initial few chapters of Part 1.  I'd happily replace Sasunaru in its place if I could. * frantically dodges heavier & harder objects*_


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## Black Flicka (Apr 23, 2009)

oh crap
i see u guys are active as usual
i'll skip the day and i'll start bombarding u tommorow
i need to study 
anyways
NARUSAKU ROCKS! lol


----------



## Near Reality (Apr 23, 2009)

I like them both equally, they both have different likable attributes.
They're both beautiful in their own way.

If I had to choose one I would possibly say NaruHina, only because it would give me a sense of accomplishment in the series. If NaruSaku happened I would feel just as happy, but that Sakura finally took notice of Naruto. Really both the same reasons.

I'm happy with either happening, and hope it does happen.


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## Near Reality (Apr 23, 2009)

skygunner41 said:


> According to newest databook 3 it seem sakura like >> sasuke and worry about >> naruto.IMO naruto already give up on sakura because he had no chance what so ever to break the bond between sakura and sasuke....thus poal is the indication of that white flag.



I don't think that's entirely correct.

I think Naruto still strongly likes Sakura, but hasn't had much of a chance to express it in the manner he wants.

No point getting up in her face, when she will just smack him down again, I think he's waiting for the right time.

NaruSaku can happen, NaruHina can happen also. 
NaruHina on the other hand has the happen soon, or else it won't ever happen.

NaruSaku can happen when ever, also on top of that with maturing age, comes maturing thoughts.


----------



## skygunner41 (Apr 23, 2009)

The problem is where does naruto stand in pairing wars...excluding sasunaru. In part 1 naruto had a crush at sakura cause she is the 1st girls to notice him....after several event or so... the feeling I think is growing ....but the problem is sakura doesn't like naruto and crush his other teammate sasuke. 

Because of lack of social skill all the atempt to woo sakura end with humorous effect.but the turning point in the narusaku is in the hospital scene where sakura hugs sasuke with tear...I think at that time naruto know that he doesn't had a chance against sakura.Still he happy at least sakura got what she want(naruto thought she did).

When sasuke deflect from konoha , sakura devastated and heartbroken.Sakura turn to naruto to stop sasuke. So poal happen. after all naruto know how painful to get rejected.

Point 2:I think because of naruto is jinchuuriki, he thought no girl will be attracted romantically at him. So he never pursue any girl. At least I think he thought so.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 23, 2009)

yalimei said:


> Uncute? I would think that to be pretty entertaining
> ...What I wanted to say is: Sakura _has_ feelings for Naruto, romantic or not. We can assume that Sakura would not like Naruto to have someone else he has romantic interest in- it´s not something to make fun about
> IMO, it would be IC and everything you mentioned is the opposite of that, as far as I´m concerned.



as expected of my rival
yes she has feelings for naruto but you *don't *have to be a genius to  realize that sakura *won't* be depressed if naruto will find a girlfriend
by using your logic then sasuke *has *feelings for sakura and he'll be hurt  if she'll fall in love with another boy!


Black Flicka said:


> oh crap
> i see u guys are active as usual
> i'll skip the day and i'll start bombarding u tommorow
> i need to study
> ...


i just love narusaku.....so much....when i see this kind of posts


Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: _The Future_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



here tyrannos makes sense about sasu-kun
i just hope that he'll be a hero in the end...dead or alive





Inuhanyou said:


> Relationship wise that's true, but in regards to NH being canon, what's your response to Naruto being an asshole if he rejects Hinata at this point after she got injured?


from now on you got my respect


----------



## ManiMan (Apr 23, 2009)

i wanted to say something to the whole hinataXnaruto thing:

Hinata "fits" quite simply not to naruto.When you look at Narutos character then you notice immediately that hinata can not keep up with narutos behavior,however sakura stops him from talking stupid,or behave stupid or being a "loudmouth."Sakura character fits better to naruto because shes loud and not that shy.I think the manga / anime would be very boring if hinata would be in it more,shes not a "funny" "hyperactive" character who makes funny things(or faces) with naruto like sakura,i never saw a "funny" scene with hinata!


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## Miss Happy (Apr 23, 2009)

ManiMan said:


> i wanted to say something to the whole hinataXnaruto thing:
> 
> *Hinata "fits" quite simply not to naruto*.When you look at Narutos character then you notice immediately that hinata can not keep up with narutos behavior,however sakura stops him from talking stupid,or behave stupid or being a "loudmouth."Sakura character fits better to naruto because shes loud and not that shy.I think the manga / anime would be very boring if hinata would be in it more,shes not a "funny" "hyperactive" character who makes funny things(or faces) with naruto like sakura,i never saw a "funny" scene with hinata!


the reason why hinata is the perfect girl for naruto is because she's shy quite and does not behave stupid...among many other things


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 23, 2009)

saasha said:


> CONTD
> *sigh* you really tend to take things out of context sometimes you know. Sasuke didn't blush because Naruto looked at him. _Sasuke blushed because he was embarrased at wanting to know the tips Naruto learned from Sakura._



 You have no idea what scene I'm referring to. Sasuke didn't flashback that which you are even referring to I think anyway, and I don't even care. I take things out of context. How would kageneko phrase this..that's _rich_.



> Don't hate me for my preference & my opinions.



I don't :ho I'll be replying the rest of your post when I get the chance. Just feel like mentioning now how's funny how you can dismiss the fact Sasuke looking at Naruto Bridge and smiling doesn't imply anything when almost every SasuSaku claim is like that based on much less. It's a question of likelihood. And you can't deny that bridge is named after Naruto for who _Naruto_ was and Sasuke was moved by Naruto as no other on a canon basis.

I also have a question about the MS since I haven't been able to read some of those chapters (I read a slower copyrighted editon carefully).
*Spoiler*: __ 



Didn't Sasuke get it cos Itachi gave him his techiques? And if MS is so important, then the fact Itachi could kill his lover but not his brother is like saying no matter HOW romantic a pairing is, doesn't mean the person doesn't love someone more.


  And that is why SasuNaru will always be above SasuSaku; thus the error to say bonds don't have a level of significance in whatever sense you're trying to make when they do. And it's far too obvious esp since they have no amazing mutual relationship in the first place that isn't heavy speculation. Well anyway. I'll get to the rest later.


----------



## Renxx (Apr 23, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Thank you for prooving my point.  She goes from being nice to being mean.


Read the rest of my last post in regards to that. If you think she was a Tsundere back then, she sure isn't one now.




Forlong said:


> Wow, you must really hate Sakura to try and use that to demean her character.  Is it so hard to believe that she _didn't_ want Naruto to die?



I don't hate Sakura. You only have to know her old self, how she was. She didn't focus much on being a ninja then, only chasing Sasuke (as stated by Kakashi on chapter 4). It was only normal (for her) that she was scared and used Naruto as an excuse to go back. However, I'm not saying she didn't _care_ about him then.



Forlong said:


> A: He's sixteen.  He's _supposed_ to feel awkward asking girls out.
> B: That's only two times.
> C: Now you're demeaning Naruto's character to make NaruSaku unlikely.  He could have been thinking about that, then started thinking about Sasuke.  Did that possiblity occur to you?


Could. That's a possibility, not something we saw. But considering it's been just a while since their encounter with Sasuke, I doubt he would think about anyone else so soon
The way he said that didn't convince me either.




Forlong said:


> I was refering to Hinata.


What do you mean she doesn't know him?
She watched him from afar, training hard, never giving up. She looked up to him, admired him, cared for him. From admiring to loving isn't that much of a big step. And here, it seems his dedication and hard-work was enough to make her fall for him.



Forlong said:


> So...her tears for Sasuke are "love tears", but all her tears for Naruto are "pity tears"?  She was told the only way to end the pain the Kyuubi caused him was to kill him.  She was crying because he would always have that hanging over his head.


I wasn't talking about that. Chapter 252, page 5,6.
And her tears for Sasuke are "love tears" because we have always known in part 1 that she liked/loved Sasuke. But if she cries for Naruto, saying she cries because she loves him is an interpretation, since we have yet to see that confirmed or anything as close. And why wouldn't she cry if she cared about her friend when she heard that?



Forlong said:


> This is Naruto we're talking about.


And because this is Naruto... he gets over people's deaths fast? 

*Spoiler*: __ 



It was shown in a recent chapter that he is avenging Jiraiya.






Forlong said:


> :rofl
> You _must_ be single!  That was rediculess!


Okay. First: learn how to spell. I'm not a native-english speaker and I can spell better than you. Think about that.
Second: If you say I must be single because of that, then I can deduct you're currently in an abusive relationship. Am i rite?



Forlong said:


> You just negated your own point.  He _knew_ Hinata was right in front of him when he went Kyuubi.  He _didn't_ know where Sakura was.


You missed my point. He doesn't know where _Sakura_ is. Has he shown any care about that? No.



Forlong said:


> I believe I explained those two already:
> "If you had the time to do that..."  She doesn't look mad.  She looks amused.  Probably letting him know that he doesn't need to come up with some elaborate plan, he can just ask.


That's just an interpretation. She clearly tells him to study ninjutsu instead because he's "as stupid as things are".



Forlong said:


> "No, dumbass!" She's upset that he isn't taking care of himself.  Sleeping in is unhealthy, so is eating all that junk food.  And, on top of that, he can't tell that she's refering to a business call.


Umm, no. What she says after she sees him like that: "Well, whatever. Hurry up, wash your face and change. I'll wait for you." She gets annoyed and says "No, dumbass!" when he asks her if it's a date.



Forlong said:


> Wasn't bugged about him leaving?  Did you miss all the crying!?


Sarcasm. I used it.



Forlong said:


> Still don't see how that prooves that she still loves Sasuke.  Knowing what he's planning would be kind of important to _finding_ him.


Let's see. Sasuke leaves, Sakura cries her heart out for Naruto to bring him back. Naruto comes back, Sakura thinks he brought Sasuke with him, is about to open the door to the hospital room where Naruto is, hears the conversation between Shika and him, and if it weren't for Tsunade to notice her standing there, Sakura wouldn't even have entered the room. After hearing from Naruto that he won't give up on Sasuke, Sakura realizes she has to help next time, and goes to Tsunade to train hard for 2.5 years, and during that training, she researched on Sasuke. Sasuke. Not Naruto. So, what here indicates that she doesn't love Sasuke anymore and considered Naruto as a potential love interest?



Forlong said:


> I KNOW!
> And I just showed her trying to kill Sasori _without_ learning anything!  The only reason she got any information was because Sasori wanted her to kill Orochimaru.  Notice that she didn't ask for the information after he came near death.  He just gave it to her, and she was _surprised_.


I didn't notice it until now actually. You're right. The fight probably got out of hand and Sasori was stronger than Sakura thought, and became more focused on defeating him.



Forlong said:


> The point isn't if Sakura ever loved Sasuke, but if she still does.  Now, she's showing more concern and care for Naruto than the guy she said "I love you" to.  What could that mean?


She isn't showing as much concern and care for Naruto as she did for Sasuke in part 1. You wanna know who's showing more care and concern for Naruto than Sakura? Chapter 383 page 2, 12. 437, page 3, 443 page 8.




Forlong said:


> Well, when she talks about it, she doesn't seem to concerned with how this could harm Sasuke.


The book is called the effects of medical drugs. Probably has the negative effects on the person who uses them too? They were talking about how strong he was, not his condition, it's only normal she talked about his strenght.



Forlong said:


> I recall Naruto saying he "likes" Sakura.  Not that he's "attracted to her".


"A cute girl I'm kinda interested in" is how she is introduced by Naruto. 



Forlong said:


> Ah, that's what I thought you were talking about.  You're right, she did shed one tear.  She's _still_ crying more for Naruto.  Face facts, _Naruto is more important to her than Sasuke_.


That's why she says she'll protect them *both*, why she trained 2.5 years. 
They're both important to her, but with different reasons.



Forlong said:


> Let's see. She's thinking: "I'll stop Sasuke-kun myself."  Not "bring back"...STOP!  And what did she think just beforehand?  About how she promised _Naruto_ that she would help next time.


She remembers she _said_ she was going to help bring him back, (there's no Naruto in that flashback, only what she said she would do) because she couldn't do anything while Naruto was going on the Rescue Sasuke mission. So what did she do? Train for 2.5 years so she could be strong enough to help.



Forlong said:


> Then she glares at Sasuke and tries to break his ribs, or something of that nature.  So who is it that she loves again?


God. If we go that way, then we can deduct Naruto doesn't want to be friends with Sasuke anymore because he used force to bring him back! Now, is that true? *No*.


----------



## saasha (Apr 23, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> You have no idea what scene I'm referring to. Sasuke didn't flashback that which you are even referring to I think anyway, and I don't even care.



I care & I'm curious as to which flashback you were actually referring to? 




> I take things out of context. How would kageneko phrase this..that's _rich_.



I did mention sometimes. Everyone takes things out of context sometimes.





> I don't :ho I'll be replying the rest of your post when I get the chance. Just feel like mentioning now how's funny how you can dismiss the fact Sasuke looking at Naruto Bridge and smiling doesn't imply anything when almost every SasuSaku claim is like that based on much less. It's a question of likelihood. And you can't deny that bridge is named after Naruto for who _Naruto_ was and Sasuke was moved by Naruto as no other on a canon basis.



I didn't dismiss the 'naruto bridge' moment. I just gave you my personal opinion. It's possible he was thinking of naruto only *shrug* doesn't hurt my argument either way. I still see no romance being implied. 

Also, to my knowledge, I have always felt sasusaku is based mostly on facts. It is only Sasuke's half that is shrouded in interpretation which will have to come together before the end of the manga. At the very least, sasusaku is guaranteed a resolution to Sakura's feelings. In whose favour it will rule is up to interpretation. 





> I also have a question about the MS since I haven't been able to read some of those chapters (I read a slower copyrighted editon carefully).
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



  Regarding the MS, I'm not exactly sure how it works. Itachi did transfer his eye techniques to Sasuke but I don't know if the eye-techniques transfer i.e the MS was only transferred because sasuke defeated itachi or not. Maybe someone else can give a better explanation? 

Itachi's actions make perfect sense to me. He loved his little brother more than anything. I know there are people out there who believe this love is romantic but I disagree violently with this. Platonic love sometimes can surpass romantic love. Doesn't mean that one kind of love is more significant than the other. Sasuke was a child, a seven year old child who was his beloved younger brother. You'd have to be a monster to kill a child who means as much to you, for the sake of duty or not. I could have never forgiven Itachi if he had chosen to keep his lover alive instead. It would have been betrayal of the worst kind. It would be as despicable as a mother or a father choosing to save her/his lover instead of her 7 yr old/ or older son/ daughter. The only instance that I can condone an action such as this is when the father chooses to keep his lover alive instead of an unborn child. 

The sasunaru bond is very like the Itasasu bond where sasuke plays the role itachi played in his life for naruto( except sasuke is more reticent than itachi, of course). It is why I cannot label the sasunaru bond as inherently romantic, just like I cannot label the itasasu bond as romantic. In any case, sasuke, naruto & sakura are all of the same age. Try as I can, I can never imagine any of them ever choosing to save one of the other two in danger, no matter what. I can see all three of them dieing together, but I can never see any of them abandoning one for the other when two of their lives are in danger at the same time, both being within reach.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 23, 2009)

Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I predict that...

*Spoiler*: __ 



...Naruto will decide that, before he tries going out with Hinata, he'll find out how Sakura feels about him.  Expect many interruptions.  When he finally does ask Sakura, she _lies_ and tells Naruto that she doesn't love him.  This is because she feels Hinata deserves Naruto more and wants him to be happy.
Ironically, this would make Sakura more worthy of Naruto's love. 






saasha said:


> People need to cut Sakura some slack here. She did try, not very hard but her prejudiced dislike for Naruto isn't going to simply disappear just like that, even if the boy she likes chides her for it. Not to mention any sane girl would be rude to a boy who constantly makes unwanted romantic advances like Naruto does with Sakura.


Thank you.  Sakura is my favorite character, and I've had to defend her left and right.



Ren said:


> What do you mean she doesn't know him?
> She watched him from afar, training hard, never giving up. She looked up to him, admired him, cared for him. From admiring to loving isn't that much of a big step. And here, it seems his dedication and hard-work was enough to make her fall for him.


Watching from afar=STALKING!
Sakura has had conversations with Naruto.  _Far_ more than Hinata.  And your surprised I think Sakura knows Naruto better than Hinata?



Ren said:


> I wasn't talking about that. Chapter 252, page 5,6.
> And her tears for Sasuke are "love tears" because we have always known in part 1 that she liked/loved Sasuke. But if she cries for Naruto, saying she cries because she loves him is an interpretation, since we have yet to see that confirmed or anything as close. And why wouldn't she cry if she cared about her friend when she heard that?


We didn't always know she loved Sasuke!  Most of us brushed it off as a stupid crush until the love confession.
She cries a lot more when thinking about Naruto dying than Sasuke.



Ren said:


> And because this is Naruto... he gets over people's deaths fast?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Yeah, and notice that...

*Spoiler*: __ 



...he said he _won't_ kill Nagato.






Ren said:


> If you say I must be single because of that, then I can deduct you're currently in an abusive relationship. Am i rite?


WRONG!  I'm single currently (easy, ladies).  I said that you must be single, because you found the thought of a women "controling" her man to be ridiculous.  That doesn't fly in real life _or_ fiction.  Especially manga!



Ren said:


> Let's see. Sasuke leaves, Sakura cries her heart out for Naruto to bring him back. Naruto comes back, Sakura thinks he brought Sasuke with him, is about to open the door to the hospital room where Naruto is, hears the conversation between Shika and him, and if it weren't for Tsunade to notice her standing there, Sakura wouldn't even have entered the room. After hearing from Naruto that he won't give up on Sasuke, Sakura realizes she has to help next time, and goes to Tsunade to train hard for 2.5 years, and during that training, she researched on Sasuke. Sasuke. Not Naruto. So, what here indicates that she doesn't love Sasuke anymore and considered Naruto as a potential love interest?


What makes you think she _could_ learn anything about Naruto?  Considering that no one has meantioned Naruto's parrentage to him, I'd say that's because most people don't know.



Ren said:


> She isn't showing as much concern and care for Naruto as she did for Sasuke in part 1. You wanna know who's showing more care and concern for Naruto than Sakura? Chapter 383 page 2, 12. 437, page 3, 443 page 8.


Since you've said nothing when I brought up chapters 296 & 297, I don't see any reason to respond to this.
Yeah, but about chapter 443:

*Spoiler*: __ 



We _don't_ see Sakura's reaction, so we _don't_ know.  I recall you saying that against my arguements *for* NaruSaku.  Try taking your own advice.






Ren said:


> The book is called the effects of medical drugs. Probably has the negative effects on the person who uses them too? They were talking about how strong he was, not his condition, it's only normal she talked about his strenght.


No indications that she's worried about how this could harm Sasuke.  She wants to know _if_ he's using drugs, so knowing the good and bad effects would help regardless of if she cares about him.



Ren said:


> "A cute girl I'm kinda interested in" is how she is introduced by Naruto.


Asside from that and "you're forehead is so charming", all indications of Naruto's feelings are that he LIKES Sakura, not "finds her hot".  So, I'd have to say that he's more than attracted to her.



Ren said:


> That's why she says she'll protect them *both*, why she trained 2.5 years.
> They're both important to her, but with different reasons.
> 
> 
> She remembers she _said_ she was going to help bring him back, (there's no Naruto in that flashback, only what she said she would do) because she couldn't do anything while Naruto was going on the Rescue Sasuke mission. So what did she do? Train for 2.5 years so she could be strong enough to help.


Yes, what she said...to Naruto.  She doesn't think about Sasuke, just what she said to Naruto.  And there's


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 23, 2009)

saasha said:


> Also, to my knowledge, I have always felt sasusaku is based mostly on facts. It is only Sasuke's half that is shrouded in interpretation which will have to come together before the end of the manga. At the very least, sasusaku is guaranteed a resolution to Sakura's feelings. In whose favour it will rule is up to interpretation.



SasuSaku is really romantic canon but what results will we get at the end of manga I wonder


----------



## saasha (Apr 23, 2009)

I wonder too,  though, what do you mean by romantic canon? It isn't canon yet but it could be soon or by the very end of the manga. Wanna make a bet with me?


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## mystic868 (Apr 23, 2009)

Romantic canon in my opinion because it has strong roots to be nice romantic tale. However I think that what is most interesting in this manga is that it's completely unpredictable ^^
Rather wanna make a bet with Kishi who will ends up with who


----------



## Kage (Apr 23, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> I take things out of context. How would kageneko phrase this..that's _rich_.


ooh references to moi 
it's great when the pot calls the kettle black isn't it? <3


> And that is why SasuNaru will always be above SasuSaku; thus the error to say bonds don't have a level of significance in whatever sense you're trying to make when they do. And it's far too obvious esp since they have no amazing mutual relationship in the first place that isn't heavy speculation. Well anyway. I'll get to the rest later.


no amazing mutual relationship? i think someone has forgotten 'thank you' doesn't get anymore amazing and mutual then that 

on a more serious note i still don't understand how sakura's tru wub feelings for sasuke are _completely_ indisputable despite her clearly ambiguous (kishi has NOT made her stance on this crystal clear at this point and crescent moons/over analyzing/taking things out of context doesn't change that) feelings and sasuke's are 'open to interpretation' considering his _very_ clear lack of romantic interest in her.


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 24, 2009)

Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, not everything will be as stated in the begging. I'm almost certain about Naruto living to be Hokage. I'm not so sure about Sasuke, if he's not dying...he will have redemption. As for SasuSaku's future...I would prefer to be surprised. And even when Sakura has done a complete 180 about Naruto, I just don't think their relationship will be romantic. (Yeah, you could say I'm hoping for Hinata's happy ending) But hey, we all have our own "future".




*Spoiler*: __ 



A SasuSaku surprise?  That would mean like NaruHina that Kishimoto just throwing pairings together.  With Sasuke, he actually have to show emotion once again and requit his love for Sakura.   That or Kishi just throwing them together in the end.






Hikui said:


> I didn't intend to degrade, I just said what was true. That belief is something I came up with my interpretation, just like you've come up with "Sakura is in love with Naruto, now" by your own interpretation. It's not cannon.
> 
> And yeah, we're all sort of in the same boat.



No, I never said that.  I said Sakura is starting to fall in love with Naruto.  And it isn't intrepretation, because even the Databooks point this out.  And for those wisenheimers who mock me in pointing out that passage in Sakura's Databook 3 Profile, need I remind how I pointed out Chapter 297 and Chapter 343, which are very significant moments in themselves.



Hikui said:


> Sorry, I don't debate Databooks. And that's your own interpretation. Sakura's flashback mentions Sasuke, I can't believe this interpretation 100%, sorry.



Yet you purposely leave out how Naruto says, "We will do it together!"  And after that, she's in shock.   Why would she be in shock?   And why would that flashback prompt her to feed Naruto ramen?

You can't take things out of context to justify your arguement.



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## A. Waltz (Apr 24, 2009)

Sakura is thankful for Naruto and finally realized she should show some tlc to him, but it doesn't mean she's IN love with him. She just realizes now that she should care for him. Her romantic feelings probably still lie with Sasuke. I always say she loves Naruto as a brother, a comrade, but that is just an interpretation. 

Naruto won't simply ignore Hinata's confession either, he finally met/found out that someone out there loved him and is in love with him for who he is and was even when he was a child when everyone thought he had no true potential, except like iruka.


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## mystic868 (Apr 24, 2009)

AznUchihaChick said:


> Sakura is thankful for Naruto and finally realized she should show some tlc to him, but it doesn't mean she's IN love with him. She just realizes now that she should care for him. Her romantic feelings probably still lie with Sasuke. I always say she loves Naruto as a brother, a comrade, but that is just an interpretation.
> 
> Naruto won't simply ignore Hinata's confession either, he finally met/found out that someone out there loved him and is in love with him for who he is and was even when he was a child when everyone thought he had no true potential, except like iruka.



Sakura feelings for Naruto can be at friendship level as well as something more than friendship. We still cannot figure this out until Kishi will provide us with some really clear and simple-telling panels in manga what are their feelings for real.
About Hinata yes he won't simply ignore Hinata's confession but also it doesn't mean he will fall in love in her.


----------



## m o l o k o (Apr 24, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> as expected of my rival
> yes she has feelings for naruto but you *don't *have to be a genius to  realize that sakura *won't* be depressed if naruto will find a girlfriend


Oh, really? If I had feelings for a guy and he would date another girl, I would definitely not be pleased



> by using your logic then sasuke *has *feelings for sakura and he'll be hurt  if she'll fall in love with another boy!


No, that is not “using my logic” because this would imply Sasuke having the same relationship with Sakura as Sakura has with Naruto. And that is not the case, at least IMO.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 24, 2009)

kageneko said:


> it's great when the pot calls the kettle black isn't it? <3





SasuSaku is never disputable, see. It's clear as day, unlike SasuNaru.



saasha said:


> I care & I'm curious as to which flashback you were actually referring to?



*Spoiler*: __ 






It's all interpretation.


> I did mention sometimes. Everyone takes things out of context sometimes.



One who hates the _Big 3_ will do it less often I hope.



> I didn't dismiss the 'naruto bridge' moment. I just gave you my personal opinion. It's possible he was thinking of naruto only *shrug* doesn't hurt my argument either way. I still see no romance being implied.



I can take a personal opinion.

This isn't about romance, we can't categorize such actions. This is about who Sasuke is most emotionally affected by in a certain way. 



> I have always felt sasusaku is based mostly on facts.



Yeah. Two facts. That Sakura "loved" Sasuke and that Sasuke considered her a friend.



> At the very least, sasusaku is guaranteed a resolution to Sakura's feelings. In whose favour it will rule is up to interpretation.



Yeah, cos thanks to 437 apparently build-up doesn't matter.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




I disagree violently too 





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> The sasunaru bond is very like the Itasasu bond where sasuke plays the role itachi played in his life for naruto( except sasuke is more reticent than itachi, of course). It is why I cannot label the sasunaru bond as inherently romantic, just like I cannot label the itasasu bond as romantic.



*Spoiler*: __ 




ItaSasu isn't like SasuNaru in that sense. One is that Naruto and Sasuke aren't brothers, two is that they did not act the same or give off the same implications. Sasuke is Naruto's important person and Naruto is Sasuke's closest friend with plenty of other themes that are given different meaning, like their rivalry and hatred. Oh god. If I hate the comparison.





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> In any case, sasuke, naruto & sakura are all of the same age. Try as I can, I can never imagine any of them ever choosing to save one of the other two in danger, no matter what. I can see all three of them dieing together, but I can never see any of them abandoning one for the other when two of their lives are in danger at the same time, both being within reach.


That's not the point when talking about highest emotional significance. Guess such reasoning is comfortable when it comes to how Naruto is far more caring to Sakura than Sasuke ever has been.


saasha said:


> Hello again, Izzy. Aww, thanx, You're one of my favourite debate buddies as well. Don't worry abt it. *I'm pretty thick skinned.* I can respect your opinion if you can respect mine.



And this is why you're one of my favorites :ho



> Though, I see that most of what you are challenging are points that I never made or implied. But I take it, this is more of a general/personal rant?



Yes, mine was, but also a response to your approach. And btw I'm REALLY happy to know you don't make appeal to the crescent moon.



> Sasunaru & Naruhina are two dynamically different relationships based on different sentiments. It's funny but you know, I haven't come across a single sasusaku-er or naruhina-er in this thread that has ever dismissed the emotional significance of the sasunaru bond *but I see the sasunaru-ers & narusaku-ers dismiss the emotional significance of the sasusaku bond & the naruhina bond on a daily basis*. Double standard much?



ORLY? The first thing is that SasuNaru isn't even on this thread - and that, my friend, is already a dismissal of its emotional significance. I use it when it's necessary to point of what's not there for SasuSaku etc. and it's a miracle if I'm actually taken seriously. I have to be defensive.
And no, you must haven't been around when 437 came out and NaruSaku became a fodder pairing according to the logic of many NH/SS fans.



> When will people learn that to form a romantic connection, you don't need to be someone's bestfriend?



So that justifies the romance being shallow? No, it doesn't. Romance in shounen has often meant that the female has undisputable sway over the male, in a way their bestfriend can't compare even if they aren't given as much screen time.



> The sasunaru bond is not fodder but you know what, neither are the sasusaku bond or the naruhina bond.



BONDS? SasuSaku passes, but one-sided love doesn't have the same weight as mutual relationships. And they don't have the same significance in the plot or to the characters. They're no fodder but they also aren't what they haven't been.



> I am sorry but this has to be said. As much as I love sasunaru, I cannot deny that all of the subtlety that you claim is steeped in romantic sentiments can just as *easily be interpreted as a strong familial bond*.



Easily? Suuuuuure.

*Spoiler*: __ 






And that's why NaruSaku and SasuSaku pale in comparison to it, cos it's so brotherly . I can respect that to an extent, though.



> I am sorry, but all of the romantic subtlety has to be interpreted by the fans who wish to interpret it this way. I give you ( & me) that there is strong basis for such a interpretation *but if you take all the manga facts & authorial intent, the sasunaru bond was never meant to be interpreted as romantic.*



*Spoiler*: __ 



No, those are meant to be excuses for those who don't take the ambiguity in account. Meaning, for those who only read the SasuSaku/NaruHina/NaruSaku and do NOT read the SasuNaru. Was the ZabuzaXHaku canon? If you think they were, I don't see how you can be 100% positive that SasuNaru was not to be "romantically" interpreted. What the helk? It's far too recurrent and develop-ed/ing to be underestimated to whoever pays attention to what they're reading, SHOUNEN OR NOT. You don't at all have to agree, but to put it as if that's totally sure is tantalizing.





> Nowwhere is romance implied. A strong familial bond b/w them is completely believable to me just as a romance would be if it were so implied or if either naruto or sasuke were so inclined, which they're not.



You can't prove that. Cos there are just as many elements that make the relationship undefined on a literary level.  If Naruto and Sasuke are so NOT inclined in a romantic sense for each other, why does Naruto seemingly understand Sakura so well in that sense ? This is my question to you as an Anti-NaruSaku fan, unless you think Naruto truly loves Sakura.



> In any case, we aren't supposed to be debating sasunaru here & since we are both entitled to our opinions, we need to stop discussing this further.



Mentioning SasuNaru isn't for supposed to be for its pairing purposes, but to show what's there and what's not.



> Truthfully, I don't wish to debate against sasunaru since I like it as well, but I dont like it when sasunaru is used to dismiss sasusaku, especially when it is an equally valid pairing, if not more.



I don't like when SasuSaku is used to dismiss SasuNaru. It burns. And that's why I'm debating with you.



> I don't remember having ever used the crescent moon in any of my arguments. The crescent moon may or may not have any significance. I dont know; Therefore I will not talk about things I do not know for sure.



This is a miracle.



> Look, it is a fact that the Sasuke that fought against Naruto at VOTE was not completely himself.



So basically that would mean Part 2 Sasuke is not himself 

This doesn't mean anything significant doesn't come out from deep down. For instance, acknowledging Naruto as an equal would have been like denying the reason of his existance according to Kakashi, but he did anyway. Sasuke preaches how he so could have killed Naruto, but he still reacts to the latter more than to anything else except Itachi.

Will continue when I get time again.


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 24, 2009)

Nor Sakura, nor Hinata, nor Sasuke will become Naruto love. It will be Shion


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## Forlong (Apr 24, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> No, I never said that.  I said Sakura is starting to fall in love with Naruto.  And it isn't intrepretation, because even the Databooks point this out.  And for those wisenheimers who mock me in pointing out that passage in Sakura's Databook 3 Profile, need I remind how I pointed out Chapter 297 and Chapter 343, which are very significant moments in themselves.


I brought up Chapter 297 myself (and the chapter before it).  No one has responded to it. 



Tyrannos said:


> As for SasuSaku, remember Sakura's confession was out of deseperation.   So technically that isn't romantic.   And Sasuke blew it off and never gave it another thought.


That's why I think Sakura got over him.  That's a valid reason to try and get over someone.



Tyrannos said:


> No, you make as if people are saying that.   When all NaruSaku fans know is that their bond is strong and eventually their bond will lead to love.
> 
> (Which honestly isn't that different than NaruHina's beliefs.   Because it requites Naruto to acknowledge Hinata and they become a couple).


The differance is that Naruto and Sakura are friends.  And that does make the pairing more likely.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 24, 2009)

@mystic868- Naruto doesn't need filler characters in his harem .



			
				sasha said:
			
		

> A curse seal influenced Sasuke that doesn't know how to control it, has all of his emotions amplified & running rampant, pain, anger, rage, hatred, love, he tends to react extremely violently, right? That is all I meant when I said due to circumstances, not that sasunaru fails because of this which it obviousily doesnt. A normal Sasuke rarely lets his guard down, which is why, I find it more significant that a normal Sasuke felt pressurized enough by 'annoying' lil Sakura to show cracks in his safely guarded emotional barrier.



No. A normal Sasuke feels comfortable with his teammates and doesn't need to explain anything to someone who _already_ understands him. He also doesn't want Naruto to worry about him for his curse seal, but SasuSaku takes that as amazing evidence of them sharing some kind of secret, when it does nothing but give Sakura the excuse to look like she worries for Sasuke more.I don't see what your trying to demonstrate with the curse seal. He doesn't have it the entire time in the VotE, if you didn't notice.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto was confused because he didn't exactly know why Sasuke was doing this. He thought they were friends, so the fact Sasuke is trying to kill him shakes him enormously [_Sasuke...could you really kill me...without feeling anything? (in tears)_]. His feelings and faith in Sasuke are so strong that he almost can't believe it, and continues pursuing Sasuke no matter what. He obviously must have this confidence from something Sasuke showed towards him, or he wouldn't have been able to say to Sai "Sasuke recognized my worth more than anyone". This alone confirms that Sasuke is extremely involved with Naruto in a very "suggestive" way, no matter how platonic the relationship is - their dreams are too wrapped in to it. No, that doesn't mean they'll bang each other, but damn if that's not borderline homoerotic. Of course there are exceptions and circumstances, but Sasuke and Naruto seem to clearly not be the case. Naruto has been driven and obsessed with Sasuke in ways no one can deny. Fierce admiration and expections that exceed the rest he has for other characters. Each time someone questions why he pushes so far he NEVER says merely "for Sakura". I don't see these as over-elaborations, just as interwoven facts that are hard to acknowledge if you don't see them or think they're just following the brotherly theme.





> I see no reason to comply with your suggestion. I do not see sasunaru as uncomparable nor do I see it as undefined. _The Manga has defined their bond._



Yeah. In a dozen ways and continuously _developing_. Best/closest friend, comparison to a brother, important person, bond searched so long, connection, admired one, bla bla.

Wasn't it some chapters ago some people wondered if NaruHina was idolage since she said she didn't know why she had watched Naruto all those years when she fought against Neji? There is no absolute definition of anything since Sasuke *never* mentions seeing Naruto as brother, rather that they are connected.



> You choose to see it as undefined. If you are sick of SS's lack of objectivity, I am equally sick of some SN & NS's  lack of objectivity, dismissal, hypocrisy & doublestandardness for the sake of what isn't proved to be there.



Yeah, SN is sooo hypocritical cos it claims to have implications that pass the line of platonic giving a shitload of evidence. And I'm so not objective cos I claim SasuSaku isn't as viable for romance when it comes to *mutuality* for reasons that don't depend on shounen or thematic excuses. That's some real bias there.



> Smiles at bridges all the time is a definite exaggeration.



Which is why it was sarcasm.



> In any case, I personally believe that just because the bridge is called 'Naruto' doesn't mean that Naruto is the only one he is thinking of. You don't have any proof that the only thing that crossed his mind was Naruto, it could be a memory of Team 7, because Naruto wasn't the only one he bonded with back then, you know. You can scoff at my opinion because it is different from yours *but that still doesn't make your opinion any more right than it does mine* because neither of us have real concrete proof.



The power of denial is amazing.
You don't have proof that _Naruto bridge_ doesn't clearly imply NARUTO, cos 99.99% chance it obviously does, or it would have been called Team 7 bridge. That's why I think my opinion is a _tad_ more valid.



> Sakura says that Naruto is the only one now who can stop Sasuke which is the truth. She tried & failed. Kakashi wasn't around. Naruto was the only one who could beat some sense into Sasuke cos that's the Naruto way. And the result?  He also failed.



No, the result is that he failed while giving Sasuke the most serious and emotional doubt of all, changing his mind about killing him over revenge. Seriously, this is ignoring half of the manga's implications.



> They all failed when they tried to bring him back individually. Next time, they plan to bring him back together. That is what has been foreshadowed for Part two. It is obvious that Naruto will play the biggest part but I expect the rest of Team 7 to play their own lil part in bringing him back as well.



What's foreshadowed is that they're just as entwined as in Part 1 whether Sakura is there or not.



> If you are trying to imply romance with the 'only you' by oro, sakura & neji then do I take it that the 'even you' by sasuke & Shikamaru implies romance as well?/zaru



The 'even you' was used according to the context of the situation. Cos it's more than obvious that "even Sakura who so loves Sasuke" doesn't affect him like his declared bestfriend. How come SN doesn't to be taken seriously with FAR more significant phrases like "You're the bond I searched for so long" or "I don't know why but I don't want Orochimaru to take you"



saasha said:


> CONTD
> 
> I sincerely don't believe Naruto & Sasuke are repressing any romantic feelings for the other, though I can see how it could possibly be argued so, atleast for Naruto.



OK.



> Also, I never said that Sasuke & Naruto never bonded on a normal level. In fact, I think they did plenty of bonding on the normal level, more so than any other bond. They're best friends for Christ's sake. To be honest, I don't think he ever felt the need to guard himself as strongly against Naruto, simply because, *Naruto wasn't asking for romantic reciprocation from him.*



That excuse doesn't stand though since they're heated rivals too 



> Imo, he was more comfortable with Naruto because there was nothing romantic abt their relationship. Sakura was asking him to feel something he couldn't afford to feel as an avenger. He couldn't give her what she was asking for, hence the cracks in the emotional barrier he has up against sakura; hence the exposition, *an attempt to explain his reluctance to respond to her feelings*.



What reluctance? He can't feel what he doesn't. This feels extremely forced.

There is no labelling what Naruto exactly wants from Sasuke - and either way it seems to get in Sasuke's way the most unlike Sakura's feelings.



> You need to reread that match against that sound nin. Naruto's prompting wasn't the reason he won his first Chuunin match. It was Sasuke's strong will & desire to not worry both Sakura & Naruto. It was a Team 7 moment, *whether you like it or not*.



The curse seal business was BEFORE.
Naruto prompted Sasuke when the latter was losing and Sasuke reacted, and won - there is no point in denying it. LOL at the bold.



> > I'm curious to hear which those are that SasuSaku has that Sasu/Naru doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> That entire paragraph about the significance of bonds was supposed to be about all bonds in general, *not shipping related.*



I was trying to make a deeper point. This is what's ignored about SN. Haku asked Naruto before if he had someone precious to him that he followed his dream of becoming hokage for . Gaara says Sasuke is that person. Not to mention this parallel is emphasized over and over again.  It IS shipping business, for SN at least.



> Imo, all bonds are equally significant in their own way. Romance to me, isn't dependant on which bond is supposedly the strongest bond in the entire series. No one is able to relate to another completely, be it sasunaru, sasusaku, narusaku or naruhina, but that doesn't mean that they cannot relate to atleast a few aspects of the others needs.



It's about who affects who in the most emotionally questionable way, hopefully in a positive sense.

I'm going to need to continue in the next.


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## XXXTurkey (Apr 25, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _HUGE, OPEN AT OWN RISK_ 



@izzisozaki

I've been reading through this whole argument and i've become very interested in your SN arguments.

Basically, i'll start with saying that i agree with pretty much evey point that you've made about the NaruSasu bond.  I've even gone as far as to try to swallow my prejudices and read through all the main page stuff from the SN fanclub.

As you've said, they are the focus of the story and have the most emphasised connection.  Naruto _obviously_ cares very, very deeply for Sasuke and Sasuke has at the very least admitted that Naruto was his best friend and his strongest bond.

My question is this; do you actually believe that in this manga, the two of them will end up together in a "we're sleeping together" kind of way?

I really don't mean that in a combative way, i'm just turning on my dispassionate side and i find it really interesting.  The problem is that i can't get beyond the idea of them as friends.  Am i being homophobic?  I mean, put it this way, i'm applying my some of my own relationships to this idea and i still can get my head around it.  For example, i _love_ both of my brothers and if either of them got into a bad situation i would fight tooth and nail until they were safe and they wouldn't leave my thoughts for a second.  Does that mean i want to sleep with them?

The overriding issue for me is not (and never will be) the strength of their bond, it is the idea of attraction.  Naruto may _love_ Sasuke, but is he attracted to him?  I mean, there's that situation you pointed out when Naruto argues that Sasuke is cooler/better looking than Sai, but do we really live in a world where someone can't make an observation between two men without being accused of being gay?

To put it another way, hasn't Naruto displayed enough attraction towards women to disprove the idea he might be homosexual?  I would understand if Naruto had been disinterested in the opposite sex, or even if it hadn't been covered at all but neither is true.  I've got to say, i find the idea that 'deep emotional connection=attraction' unsettling because i would then have to go though some serious emotional therapy in regard to basically my entire family.

I guess to sum it all up i would say that as a fandom idea, SN is perfectly valid, i can't take away personal preferences and prejudices after all.  But when i take into account the writer's emphasis, my understanding of the characters and my own view on relationships i see nothing more than _an incredibly strong *friendship*_.

Of course, if Naruto ends up turning around and rejecting Hinata with the words "I'm gay", i'm perfectly willing to eat my own words.  I doubt it'll happen though. 

But like i said, i'm interested in your views, so if you think you can prove me otherwise i'd be perfectly willing to listen.  I may not agree, but hey...

Just please don't hurt me... 

To bring myself back on topic slightly i'm gonna repost something i said before, but add in comments that otehr people left for me...

I don't like the way the word "love" has been bandied about. When someone loves someone else, that should mean something and be based on something. Specifically, putting Hinata's feelings towards Naruto in the same boat as Lee's to Sakura is just wrong.

For a start i'll say that i love Lee as a character, but where do his (short lived) feelings (i said feelings, not love. I could also say his attraction) for Sakura come from? An in depth understanding of her character? No. So when Lee is rejected, i.e. let down gently by Sakura, you can see why she did it. Lee's intentions were honourable (they always are ) but his feelings were shallow and based on very little. Not only that, but Sakura didn't reject him just because she didn't feel "that way" about him. She liked Sasuke in "that way".



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> Hinata's love for Naruto is based on just watching him, so although its different from Lee, its really not that far either.



A split second decision compared to a number of years watching someone.  They've also had conversations.  Granted they were short, but they were definitely significant.  More importantly, we know that Hinata's love that stems from her watching him is based on very real parts of his character.  What she has said about him was true, she's not talking bollocks.

The thing is, Hinata's love is deeply rooted and shows an evident understanding of Naruto's character. From the training ground talk we know that he inspires Hinata, she knows he isn't perfect and that he does fail, but she loves him because of that, because he will never stop trying. On top of that there is chapter 437, which speaks for itself, Hinata loves Naruto.

The only argument that can possibly disprove that is one that can prove Hinata's understanding of Naruto is wrong. And that can't be done. Naruto himself acknowledges the fact that Hinata understands him way back in part 1, and at any point during chapter 437 does Naruto look like he is thinking "she doesn't know what she is talking about"? 



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> Hinata only understands a degree of Naruto, the only degree which she's seen from her distance observing.
> 
> Also, where does Naruto say Hinata understands him?
> 
> And if you want to talk about understanding, the one who probably fully understands Naruto more than anyone else is the manga is Sakura.



Again, we know that Hinata understands him because what she has said about him has been true, and actually, when has he said anyone understands him (apart from possibly Sasuke)?  And Sakura does not fully understand Naruto either.  She doesn't understand what having a tailed beast inside him is like.  Gaara understands that better than anyone.  And in terms of being a _failure_, i think Hinata understands Naruto the best.  Admittedly, there are aspects she understands less well, but as unresolved issues go and considering what was said to Yondaime, Naruto does seem to still have issue with being a failure.  Hinata can connect to him through that.

On top of that, has anything Hinata has ever said about Naruto missed the mark, or shown that she doesn't understand him? From what i can see, there is only evidence that she does.



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> Here, she says he has he strength to get back up, but when he takes one kick, she's scared to death.
> 
> How much does she truly understand him?



Why isn't she allowed to be worried?  The boy she loves has just been attacked by an Akatsuki member.  You can understand someone, have faith in someone, but still be worried about them.  To be honest, it was more proof that she cared about him (loved him ) than that she didn't understand him.

The question then is whether Naruto can return Hinata's feelings, and the obvious answer is why not? I won't trivialise Naruto's feelings for Sakura as a "silly crush", but any feelings he does have certainly aren't love. In fact, the only internalising of Naruto's feeling we have been given are "Sakura-chan, a cute girl i kind of like" and "now i understand why i like Sakura-chan". Where in the rest of the story is there any clear indication that Naruto is harbouring a love for his pink-haired team-mate that stops him thinking about anyone else? When his date requests are rejected by Sakura, is he heartbroken? Are any of his date requests seriously planned or thought out to maximise the chance of her accepting? I'm not saying that he wouldn't be interested in a relationship with her if the opportunity arose, but the dynamic between them is pretty established and as such, what exactly is stopping Naruto from exploring a relationship with another girl? As has been said it is possible that Naruto would not feel "that" way about Hinata, but from what i can see there isn't really any way that it would be anything to do with Sakura or his supposed "feelings" for her.



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> You say your not gonna trivialize Naruto's feelings for Sakura as a crush, but you way its no love. What is in between? Although the manga hasn't stated Naruto loves her, its obvious by his this
> 
> Naruto may have never gotten heartbroken from Sakura's rejections, but is that really his character to get heartbroken? Is it really his character to plan some super romantic date? When he does get rejected, does he give up? Not at all.



I said i wasn't going to trivialise Naruto's feelings as a _*silly* crush_.  It was a crush, it just wasn't silly.  In terms of the idea that is it in his character to get heartbroken, yes, it is.  Just look at his reactions to Sasuke leaving and Jiraiya's death.  In both of those cases, Naruto was heartbroken and there is emotional follow up (especially with Sasuke ).  Wheras in the case of his supposed "love" for Sakura, we get a couple of "ambigous face" panels at the exact moment and then no emotional follow up.  And about Naruto planning, when it really matters to him he doesn't stop thinking about it and is always looking to improve.  Look at the effort he puts into his training (for Sasuke) and then compare it to the effort he puts into pursuing Sakura.  There isn't a comparison.




continued below...


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## XXXTurkey (Apr 25, 2009)

continued from above...


*Spoiler*: _Slightly less huge..._ 



To give a real life example (and i know, Naruto is a story and as such shouldn't be compared in that way. Think of it as an insight into why i feel the way i do) i had a crush on one of my friends. I had known her for ten years (and still know her for that matter) and i know a hell of a lot about her, likes/dislikes, life goals, even what she would name her children! We go out and watch movies, talk about nothing in particular, basically spend loads of time together. If she had asked me out i would probably have said yes. But i wasn't actively pursuing her in any meaningful way. Around that time, we were out together (with some other friends) and another girl approached me. She said "are you with her" pointing to the girl i had a crush on. I said "no", i went with her and a week later we were in a relationship.



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> The big difference is that you weren't pursuing her.



And to be honest, if you look above again, it would seem that Naruto isn't really pursuing Sakura either...

I knew nothing about this other girl, she didn't know anything about me, and we ended up together. Conversely, Hinata and Naruto already know each other, and even share a Nindo. Why would it matter if she doesn't know every mission he went on, or what his favorite food is? It would seem that the main argument Naruto cannot try a relationship with Hinata is because there has not been enough interaction between the two of them but that is missing the point. But you don't need to know every little detail about someone to love them and you don't need to know every little detail about someone to consider them a potential love interest. Knowing and accepting someone's core beliefs, accepting all of someone despite their flaws and being willing to sacrifice yourself for them, i think that is love (Hinata). On the other side, (Naruto) finding someone who will sacrifice themself for you, who understands you and accepts you despite your flaws, wouldn't you be willing to at least try a relationship with that person?

In the end, this will all be decided by Naruto's feelings for Hinata. Naruto may think about Sakura while making his decision, but if he wants to pursue a relationship with Hinata his supposed feelings for Sakura will not get in the way. He will not reject Hinata to continue his current "pursuit" (if you can call it that) of Sakura. If he rejects Hinata, it should be because of Hinata, no-one else.

And to be honest, i can't see him rejecting her. Taking into account everything i've just said, there's also no-one has ever said they loved Naruto to him before something Naruto as a character is incredibly unlikely to throw away, this manga's theme is acceptance not rejection a theme that has not yet been broken and i don't think ever will, and Naruto has never rejected a new bond offered to him and has fought tooth and nail to preserve those that have already been created.



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> Hinata was the first person to tell Naruto he is truly strong, didn't really change much in there relationship now did it?
> 
> The manga is actually about "not giving up". There has been plenty of rejection to go around in the manga.



Hmm, she went from a "dark, timid, and weird person" to "someone like you, i like" over the course of that conversation.  I would have to disagree with you.  And from what i remember the theme of part two according to Kishimoto was "people accepting other people".  *Shrugs*.

Saying that, i'm not saying that Naruto is instantly going to start dating Hinata. It will be awkward (look at the two characters involved, a love starved, brash boy and a shy, withdrawn girl with family issues), it will be hesitant, but i seriously believe it will happen.

Is what i think... 



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> Your arguement is a good one. That could very well happen.
> However, I still find NaruSaku the more likely pairing. We know Naruto loves Sakura, and Sakura cares for Naruto. It's pretty one-sided on NaruHina. We don't know how Naruto is going to deal with this. Hinata or Sakura could become targets for Madara, if Naruto isn't careful. He also doesn't want to hurt Hinata or Sakura's feelings. Yes, Sakura would feel hurt on some level knowing Naruto has given up on her.
> 
> Your real life example is a good one, but you didn't persue it. I've been in that same boat myself.



Hmm, my argument was basically that the word "love" has been overly used, and in innappropriate cases.  Whatever Naruto feels for Sakura isn't "love", its a word with too much meaning and strength of feeling that i don't believe has been exhibited for the reasons mentioned above.  I agree Sakura cares for Naruto though.  And again like i said, like me with my friend, i don't think Naruto is really pursuing Sakura (see above).




Hope everyone enjoyed reading all that...


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## 王志鍵 (Apr 25, 2009)

ManiMan said:


> i wanted to say something to the whole hinataXnaruto thing:
> 
> Hinata "fits" quite simply not to naruto.When you look at Narutos character then you notice immediately that hinata can not keep up with narutos behavior,however sakura stops him from talking stupid,or behave stupid or being a "loudmouth."Sakura character fits better to naruto because shes loud and not that shy.I think the manga / anime would be very boring if hinata would be in it more,shes not a "funny" "hyperactive" character who makes funny things(or faces) with naruto like sakura,i never saw a "funny" scene with hinata!



That's what character development is all about. Changing into something better, and that's what Hinata has been trying to do for the last 3-4 years, maybe even earlier.Who knows how she will turn out in the end, the same goes with Naruto.


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## Amai106 (Apr 25, 2009)

AznUchihaChick said:


> Naruto won't simply ignore Hinata's confession either, he finally met/found out that someone out there loved him and is in love with him for who he is and was even when he was a child when everyone thought he had no true potential, except like iruka.




can i join,im supporting NaruSaku

anyways,if u think of naruto and hinatas relationship theres really nothing to it except the confession and hinata stalking him (not trying to bash hinata)
honestly do u think u want someone thats been stalking u for a long time?? also, all of a sudden on this one day naruto is going to fall head over hills in love with hinata.i doubt that he'll say "oh hinata im sorry i havent noticed you because i've been chasing after sakura for all this time and even though i hardly know you,i've grown these feelings for you in a couple of minutes",then he skips down the field with hinata.
like i said i really doubt that.

plus naruto and sakura's relationship has development over time.

i want any1 to anwser this question, would u return those feelings,even though u hardly know this person?

i think its not good to rush things cause you probably dont know much about this person,u think u do but u dont.im referring to naruto and hinatas relationship,but on the other hand naruto and sakura's relationship is blossming to be something thats great,something that is beautiful,something that is love.pek



i think wat naruto means by love is someone to love as a family member,someone to claim him as a special person or family bond(meaning mom or dad)


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## Afalstein (Apr 25, 2009)

I don't think anyone's suggesting Naruto's going to fall head over heels this instant.  But even in the Manga, it's not like he barely knows Hinata.  He just doesn't understand her completely, something that started to change in the Chunin exams.  He's just seen a whole another side of her personality, and I would say he's definitely going to start showing a strong interest in her from here out.

The argument with Sakura is whether it's love or merely respect that is coming out.  Granted, they're a lot closer than they were before, but I don't think they're quite there yet.  Naruto still likes Sakura, obviously, but he hasn't really given a definitive reason beyond that she's pretty.  Sakura is beginning to see that Naruto is powerful, and she is starting to admire his dedication, but he's still something in the background for her. 

And this is part of the thing.  Sakura is just starting to realize Naruto's dedication and perseverance, something Hinata realized way back in the academy.  Essentially the main difference is the amount of attention Naruto has paid either, and I would say these events are going to raise the amount of attention he pays to Hinata.  If not at least equal to Sakura, then maybe above.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 25, 2009)

^ He doesn''t understand her, he's hardly talked to her besides that one time at the Chuunin exams, that's the whole point, he DOES barely know her. The only insight he's gotten onto herself is the chuunin exams, and this one confession scene. That's hardly enough to base a relationship on.

Your second point is also a bit erroneous, because you could have possibly been right...had he not stated in chapter 3 that he finally understood what he liked about her (loved in the official english version). Its not the way your trying to make it seem, like its some kind of superficial thing that he really has never thought about, if so, it would never have lasted this long. Sakura thinking of Naruto as something "in the backround"...i think is something she destroyed a long time ago, when Sasuke actually make the observation to her about not seeing him. She's dealt with that ever since the POALT..its altogether different now.

As for your last point, its only a matter of viewpoints. Sakura has gradually come to see who Naruto is, through hardship, experience, and time. Hinata has liked the aspect of him that she does since the beginning of the series and apparently it was immediately after she met him. It all comes down to if your one who enjoys the journey more than the destination.


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## Afalstein (Apr 25, 2009)

I'm not familiar with the scene you're talking about (not surprising, considering I have only cursory knowledge of part II), but that does sound interesting.  I wonder: was that all he said or did he mention something specific?  That's an issue more of curiosity, though I also wonder how deep the thing is.

I would say Sakura is definitely starting to see Naruto as more in the foreground, but it seems that whenever she thinks of him, it tends to be in the context of their relation to Sasuke. I.E. his promise to bring Sasuke back, her own usefulness in the quest, the fact that her healing them brings them closer to Sasuke together.  Mind you, that could easily be a story device TO bring them together, especially if Sasuke never returns (though I think he will),  but the point is she hasn't quite gotten to the point of really liking him yet.

Not sure what to say about his interaction with Hinata.  This tends to be the major sticking point of the debate: Sakura is a main character, Hinata is not.  So if the series is centered around Naruto and what a wonderful guy he is (as the title would suggest), Sakura is more likely.  If, however, it's more about the younger generation surpassing the older (as a number of scenes have suggested), then things are more open.  Especially as Sakura=Tsunade, Jiraiya=Naruto, Orochimaru=Sasuke.  Jiraiya and Tsunade aren't married (to anyone), their relationship seems more a kind of mutual respect.  But then, perhaps their younger incarnations will surpass them there too.

Moving back to the point.  I'm mostly familiar with the anime, which I've recently learned places a great deal more emphasis on Hinata than the manga does.  (Of course, Kishi might be influenced by the anime also, but that's hypothetical.)  But if I recall correctly, during the Chunin exams, Naruto didn't have a lot of interaction with Sakura either.  Or at least, I feel he had more with Hinata.  Considering the importance of that arc, it's pretty substantial.  Of course, Hinata had NO role in the Sasuke retrieval, an even more important arc, but she's not associated with Sasuke, as Sakura is.  And again, Sakura's relation to Naruto here is put in terms mostly of their relation to Sasuke.


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## kinglingtime (Apr 25, 2009)

NaruHina is canon, it was confirmed by Sakura and Pain. Hinata failing to win Naruto makes Kishi go against his constant writing.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 25, 2009)

kinglingtime said:


> NaruHina is canon, it was confirmed by Sakura and Pain. Hinata failing to win Naruto makes Kishi go against his constant writing.



^ Naruto aint a prize, there's no logic in Hinata "winning him" because there is "deserve" system in place.  By your logic, Sakura's obsession with Sasuke was alright regardless of the fact that he apparently never thought of her that way, because she stalked him all the time so it gives her some sort of claim. It doesn't work like that.

Sakura has nothing to do with NaruHina being confirmed, and neither does Pain to be honest. Its about mutual reciprocation, and there is none of that atm.


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## Kazekage Gaara (Apr 25, 2009)

I am for NaruHina,i mean Hinata was in love in Naruto her hole life,and Sakura wasn't,she was saying he is annoying.....So...


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## kinglingtime (Apr 25, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> ^ Naruto aint a prize,


Neither is Sakura. 





> there's no logic in Hinata "winning him" because there is "deserve" system in place.


It's not a matter of winning or losing, it's the fact that the love of a person you protect is finally realized by the latter. Naruto should see this in Hinata if not learn by now that Sakura is just a simple crush and ture love is in his face.  





> By your logic, Sakura's obsession with Sasuke was alright regardless of the fact that he apparently never thought of her that way,


Sakura always loved Sasuke and it was appaerent she'd do anything for him, it's not matter of what Sasuke thinks because he follows a dark and confused path. Sakura always gave 300 percent in Sasuke despite him not realizing it. 





> because she stalked him all the time so it gives her some sort of claim. It doesn't work like that.


And Naruto is no better with his constant Sakura chan humoristic crush?



> Sakura has nothing to do with NaruHina being confirmed, and neither does Pain to be honest. Its about mutual reciprocation, and there is none of that atm.


Sakura knows Hinata is in love with Naruto and somehow Pain also knows how killing somebody who is in love with you matters in the long run.


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## Petros (Apr 25, 2009)

kinglingtime said:


> NaruHina is canon, it was confirmed by Sakura and Pain. Hinata failing to win Naruto makes Kishi go against his constant writing.


By _that_ logic, NaruSaku is canon, because it was confirmed by Naruto himself to love Sakura (chapter 3, desire to protect her no matter the cost during the shukaku battle, Gamakichi lifting his pinky finger, the promise of a lifetime...). 
And since it's Naruto's nindo (way of life, ninja way, whatever the hell you wish to call it) to _never_ give up, Naruto failing to have his feelings reciprocated by Sakura goes against Kishi's constant writing. (cii wut I did thar?)

How I loathe these double standards that go absolutely nowhere... 
And I'm still to understand how -apparently- a side character's feelings top the main character's to the point he is _obliged_ to accept them no matter what... sigh... pairing logic for ya 

just saw your reply to Inu...


kinglingtime said:


> Neither is Sakura.


When did Inu even mention Sakura as a prize to Naruto?
No need to divert the subject like that....


> It's not a matter of winning or losing, it's the fact that the love of a person you protect is finally realized by the latter. Naruto should see this in Hinata if not learn by now that Sakura is just a simple crush and ture love is in his face.


Wait... what?
Naruto protected Sakura from Gaara with his life, cheered her up when she felt down, put her happiness above his own (by promising her to bring Sasuke back, and yes, he did it for himself aswell, after all, SasuNaru is the most emphasized bond on this whole freaking manga)
So, again, using YOUR LOGIC, Naruto should get the love of the person who he always loved because he did all those things for her.
And, consequentially, Sakura should learn by now that Sasuke was just a simple crush (popular, brooding, good-looking guy who never talked to her outside of missions - she said so herself) and true love is in her face (the guy who protected her, cheered her up, sacrificed his feelings for hers).
Again, this all just to show how your logic fails.


> Sakura always loved Sasuke and it was appaerent she'd do anything for him, it's not matter of what Sasuke thinks because he follows a dark and confused path. Sakura always gave 300 percent in Sasuke despite him not realizing it. And Naruto is no better with his constant Sakura chan humoristic crush?


Remind me again, who turned 4 tails at the mere mention of Sasuke belonging to Orochimaru?
Who was it that didn't punch Sai because if it'd mean getting Sasuke back, he'd tolerate Sai?
But, hey, never mind Naruto, Sakura's 300% commited because she loves him! No doubt there! 'tebayo! :sigh


> Sakura knows Hinata is in love with Naruto and somehow Pain also knows how killing somebody who is in love with you matters in the long run.


Naruto also knew Sakura was in love with Sasuke, yet he still loves her (chapter 343).

Jizz is fun


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 25, 2009)

kinglingtime said:


> Neither is Sakura.



I never said she was did i?



> It's not a matter of winning or losing, it's the fact that the love of a person you protect is finally realized by the latter. Naruto should see this in Hinata if not learn by now that Sakura is just a simple crush and ture love is in his face.



Naruto can realize Hinata's feelings, but that has nothing to do with him returning her feelings. Its pure conjecture for you to say his feelings for Sakura are "just a crush", not to mention making a mockery of Naruto's bonds.



> Sakura always loved Sasuke and it was appaerent she'd do anything for him, it's not matter of what Sasuke thinks because he follows a dark and confused path. Sakura always gave 300 percent in Sasuke despite him not realizing it. And Naruto is no better with his constant Sakura chan humoristic crush?



The difference is, Naruto made Sakura feel like she could actually do better than she was at a time when she felt her most lowest, Sasuke made her frankly feel like shit.



> Sakura knows Hinata is in love with Naruto and s[/omehow Pain also knows how killing somebody who is in love with you matters in the long run.



Which is why 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 he conveniently missed her vitals? 




The confession gets to people's heads without having one properly understand the situation, think it over, then come back.

Of course Jizz, you would anyway hmm?


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## Afalstein (Apr 25, 2009)

Oi.

I actually agree that Kishi goes against his constant writing style if Naruto doesn't go with Hinata, but I still wouldn't consider the pairing canon yet.  Personally, I wish Naruto would just get on with the Pein thing and kill him already, and get back to the village so we can see how things pan out.

I've heard the argument that Naruto "never stops trying" and hence won't take the "easy route" by going for Hinata instead of Sakura.  The problem with this is that while Naruto does have aspirations of being Sakura's boyfriend, it's not one of those big proclamation things.  It's not like "I'm going to be the next Hokage and marry Sakura-chan!"  I'm not saying it's not a goal, I'm just saying it hasn't been presented as crucial to his personality as becoming Hokage or bringing Sasuke back.  (Another reason why I think Sasuke will come back).  Stating it in terms of "Naruto never gives up" makes it sound like some kind of accomplishment list, along the lines of Lee's "I will run around the village 500 times" thing.

The big question that keeps getting tossed around is whether Naruto will return Hinata's feelings.  And the primary argument against it is that Naruto doesn't really, at this time, love Hinata.  I'd say that's a valid argument.  But that's because he's never reallly looked at her in romantic terms before.  Now he can't really help it.  Whether he does end up liking her or not, he's not going to be able to escape looking at her in those terms.  There's a new level of interest in her character for him.

So then the question becomes, does he turn her down in favor of Sakura?  It's tempting to see this in terms of "Who does Naruto love more: Sakura or Hinata?"  But I don't quite see it that way.  Naruto is still a hopeful in the Sakura department, he hasn't yet found any concrete evidence she likes him.  So he's not being asked to choose who he loves more, he's being asked whether or not turn down a girl who loves him.  Essentially he has no reason not to.

One more thing before I close this: the other thing to do is to compare this confession to Lee's confession to Sakura.  (I actually like this pairing, but I don't think it's coming off).  But there are some fundamental differences.  First of all, Hinata isn't Lee, obviously.  They're pretty much opposites.  Lee's always making vows and oaths of great passion, Hinata more or less keeps things to herself.  Also, from what I've seen, Hinata's confession in the manga has been presented as much more profound and meaningful than Lee's was, back in the day.

Also, Naruto now is not like Sakura then.  Sakura was still in her "Sasuke obsession" phase, and tended to knock down any boy who wasn't him.  She was pretty loud, obnoxious, and inconsiderate. IMO. Even given that, though, she showed a great deal of compassion to Lee post-confession.  Naruto may arguably be in a similar, or even greater, relation to Sakura; but he's not nearly as inconsiderate as she was then.  He's very likely to pay much more attention to Hinata than Sakura did to Lee.

If not... maybe we can start a Lee/Hinata board


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## 王志鍵 (Apr 25, 2009)

There are some good Narusaku vs Naruhina debates here.But I'm sticking with Naruhina.Naruto at least like Hinata as a friend and is most likely to look a Hinata differently after the confession which could also mean developing stronger feelings. As for Him loving Sakura I think he mostly only loves her as a friend and only has a crush on her because she's pretty. Yeah sure. He likes her more than Hinata...but I honestly don't think he's madly in love with Sakura like Hinata is to him.Yeah sure,their feelings developed after Sasuke left,but I still can't see anything except a brother-sister bond there. I also think that Sakura might even support NaruHina. Just a theory.

     If Narusaku would happen, it leaves me to wonder, what would the other characters think? Most of the Konoha 12 already know that Hinata fell protecting Naruto.They know that Hinata loves Naruto. Sakura even came to the conclusion that Hinata loves Naruto alot.Right now, Sakura would feel guilty for just taking Naruto without thinking about Hinata's feelings first. Not the mention, the other characters would be wondering why Narusaku happened instead of Naruhina.

     How would Hinata benefit from Narusaku? From her confession, we all know that Hinata wants to be more than just freinds with Naruto, she dreams of a day where she would finally catch up to Naruto and _walk side by side_ with him.Not just catch up to him.Hinata doesn't see Naruto as just admiration.It's more than that.Why would Kishi just leave Hinata hanging while he hooks up Naruto and Sakura after he clearly stated what Hinata wanted in life?Just why would he do that? It's cruel.

     Another question, What is the main reason why Naruto wants to bring back Sasuke?So Naruto can be with Sakura in the end?NO Answer:Because he promised Sakura that he would bring Sasuke back. Naruto already knows that Sakura loves Sasuke alot.Near the end of part 1 he sorta "gave up" on Sakura(we can tell from his facial expressions) because he knows Sakura loves Sasuke romantically and not him. It was a life promise.

Other Questions you guys can answer:
Why did Kishimoto decide keep Naruhina after the time skip but abandon other pairings such as LeexSakura and Inoxsasuke?Wouldn't he have abandoned Naruhina a long time ago if he didn't intend for it to happen?Wouldn't abandoning Naruhina cause less trouble since Hinata isn't really an important anyway?Finally,What do you think would happen to Hinata if Narusaku does happen?


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## Forlong (Apr 25, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> but do we really live in a world where someone can't make an observation between two men without being accused of being gay?


Of course not.



XXXTurkey said:


> For a start i'll say that i love Lee as a character, but where do his (short lived) feelings (i said feelings, not love. I could also say his attraction) for Sakura come from? An in depth understanding of her character? No. So when Lee is rejected, i.e. let down gently by Sakura, you can see why she did it. Lee's intentions were honourable (they always are ) but his feelings were shallow and based on very little. Not only that, but Sakura didn't reject him just because she didn't feel "that way" about him. She liked Sasuke in "that way".


I'm pretty sure Sakura would have shot Lee down, even if she didn't _like_-like Sasuke. 



XXXTurkey said:


> Again, we know that Hinata understands him because what she has said about him has been true, and actually, when has he said anyone understands him (apart from possibly Sasuke)?  And Sakura does not fully understand Naruto either.  She doesn't understand what having a tailed beast inside him is like.  Gaara understands that better than anyone.  And in terms of being a _failure_, i think Hinata understands Naruto the best.  Admittedly, there are aspects she understands less well, but as unresolved issues go and considering what was said to Yondaime, Naruto does seem to still have issue with being a failure.  Hinata can connect to him through that.


Sakura does understand what it means to fail.  That's why she asked the devil Tsunade to train her.



gaara@ said:


> I am for NaruHina,i mean Hinata was in love in Naruto her hole life,and Sakura wasn't,she was saying he is annoying.....So...


But Naruto always loved Sakura.  So how is that different from how Hinata feels?



kinglingtime said:


> It's not a matter of winning or losing, it's the fact that the love of a person you protect is finally realized by the latter. Naruto should see this in Hinata if not learn by now that Sakura is just a simple crush and ture love is in his face.


_Silly crush?_   He's done everything to protect Sakura.  That's *number one* on his priority list!



kinglingtime said:


> Sakura always loved Sasuke and it was appaerent she'd do anything for him, it's not matter of what Sasuke thinks because he follows a dark and confused path. Sakura always gave 300 percent in Sasuke despite him not realizing it. And Naruto is no better with his constant Sakura chan humoristic crush?


Yeah, and it wouldn't be stupid for a girl to love a murdering psychopath.  I know Sasuke isn't this, but he's working in that direction.  How can you support a healthy pairing like NaruHina, and such a damaging one (that'd be SasuSaku)?

And Naruto always loved Sakura. 



Afalstein said:


> I've heard the argument that Naruto "never stops trying" and hence won't take the "easy route" by going for Hinata instead of Sakura.  The problem with this is that while Naruto does have aspirations of being Sakura's boyfriend, it's not one of those big proclamation things.  It's not like "I'm going to be the next Hokage and marry Sakura-chan!"  I'm not saying it's not a goal, I'm just saying it hasn't been presented as crucial to his personality as becoming Hokage or bringing Sasuke back.  (Another reason why I think Sasuke will come back).  Stating it in terms of "Naruto never gives up" makes it sound like some kind of accomplishment list, along the lines of Lee's "I will run around the village 500 times" thing.


Not many 16-year-olds think about who they'll marry.  Just thought I'd point that out.



BruceLeefan said:


> Naruto at least like Hinata as a friend and is most likely to look a Hinata differently after the confession which could also mean developing stronger feelings. As for Him loving Sakura I think he mostly only loves her as a friend and only has a crush on her because she's pretty.


When did he say that he liked Sakura because she was pretty?



BruceLeefan said:


> He likes her more than Hinata...but I honestly don't think he's madly in love with Sakura like Hinata is to him.


Yeah, it's not like Naruto ever risked his life to protect Sakura.  Oh, wait...he DID!



BruceLeefan said:


> I also think that Sakura might even support NaruHina. Just a theory.


*Chapter 442 spoiler:* 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Let's take a look.  That doesn't look like support on Sakura's face.  More like concern...when thinking "Hinata loves Naruto"...hmm...






BruceLeefan said:


> If Narusaku would happen, it leaves me to wonder, what would the other characters think? Most of the Konoha 12 already know that Hinata fell protecting Naruto.


Sasuke: Doesn't care, regardless.
Shikamaru: He probably suspects Hinata's feelings for Naruto, and knows about Naruto's for Sakura.  But he probably doesn't care much.  It'd be such a drag to worry about.
Ino: Don't know exactly how she feels about it.  But, if Naruto has Sakura, Sasuke is open market for Ino.
Choji: I don't think he has a clue.  _Maybe_ he knows about Naruto's feelings for Sakura.
Shino: Knows about Hinata's feelings for Naruto, but hasn't done anything about it.
Kiba: I don't think I even need to say it. 
Lee: Same as Kiba.
Neji: Probably figured out about Hinata's feelings for Naruto.  But, like Shino, hasn't seen to do anything regarding it.
Tenten: Wait...who's Tenten again?
The only people who will care if Naruto doesn't end up with Hinata are reading this thread.



BruceLeefan said:


> Right now, Sakura would feel guilty for just taking Naruto without thinking about Hinata's feelings first. Not the mention, the other characters would be wondering why Narusaku happened instead of Naruhina.


Regardless of how Sakura or Hinata feel about this, it's Naruto decision.  And no one will wonder why Naruto isn't dating Hinata, because Shino, Neji, and Sakura are the only ones who figured it out.



BruceLeefan said:


> How would Hinata benefit from Narusaku? From her confession, we all know that Hinata wants to be more than just freinds with Naruto, she dreams of a day where she would finally catch up to Naruto and _walk side by side_ with him.  Not just catch up to him.


I think the manga is titled "Naruto", not "Hinata".  It doesn't matter if Hinata benefits from NaruSaku.  Hinata is still a long way from walking side by side with Naruto (at least in the terms she was speaking).  Sakura hasn't said anything like that, because she doesn't have to.  Hinata dreams of being someone Naruto can count on, Sakura already _is_ someone he can count on.



BruceLeefan said:


> Why would Kishi just leave Hinata hanging while he hooks up Naruto and Sakura after he clearly stated what Hinata wanted in life?  Just why would he do that? It's cruel.



*Spoiler*: __ 



:rofl
Yes, compared to that, killing Kakashi was minor.



Let's flip the question: Why would Kishimoto-sensei leave Naruto hanging?  Why does Naruto have to be the one to get over his "crush"?
I don't understand NaruHina shipper logic.  Naruto has to get over Sakura, because it's just a "silly crush".  Yet, if Naruto doesn't return Hinata's love, she can't possibly move on.  Can you say, "double standard"?



BruceLeefan said:


> Another question, What is the main reason why Naruto wants to bring back Sasuke?  So Naruto can be with Sakura in the end?  NO Answer: Because he promised Sakura that he would bring Sasuke back. Naruto already knows that Sakura loves Sasuke alot. Near the end of part 1 he sorta "gave up" on Sakura(we can tell from his facial expressions) because he knows Sakura loves Sasuke romantically and not him. It was a life promise.


 Naruto promised to make Sakura happy, even if he couldn't be.  I don't know where you learned what love is; but, if you don't think that's love, you apparently missed some critical leasons.
He also wants Sasuke back because he's "like a brother".  Naruto's own words.



BruceLeefan said:


> Why did Kishimoto decide keep Naruhina after the time skip but abandon other pairings such as LeexSakura and Inoxsasuke?  Wouldn't he have abandoned Naruhina a long time ago if he didn't intend for it to happen?  Wouldn't abandoning Naruhina cause less trouble since Hinata isn't really an important anyway?


To get Naruto all angsty and confused.  And he hasn't abandoned NaruSaku either.


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 25, 2009)

gaara@ said:


> I am for NaruHina,i mean Hinata was in love in Naruto her hole life,and Sakura wasn't,she was saying he is annoying.....So...



Funny how that logic doesn't work for SasuSaku; it's NEVER too late for Sasuke to realize his truluv for Sakura.



XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: _HUGE, OPEN AT OWN RISK_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



It's simply arbituary. Deep platonic relationships between men exist but also those that go past platonic do. I saw you use an example from personal experience, therefore so will I. You don't need to be predominantly homosexual to love someone that way, especially when you grew up like Naruto (this is my personal view); you don't follow such social restrictions [though this may be done subconsciously]. Bisexual potential is human. This is a post which adds some more to why I think SasuNaru is gay  [cos I'm not really free to go into pairing analysis for SasuNaru here] . Even if SasuNaru doesn't have explicit [I]sexual[/I] tension, that doesn't mean it screams platonic. Naruto's approach is too deep, and the way Sasuke is affected is too odd.

As for it happening. It already has. I'm willing to sink with this ship even if I can see them not sexually interacting, because I just cannot see them with anyone else that way. It's unfair to those they're with and it's unfair to them [just my opinion]. Also I don't believe explicit romance needs to happen for a pairing to be canon :oh
Not to mention I get all the fanservice I need.[/SPOILER][QUOTE]
Just please don't hurt me... :cry[/QUOTE]

I don't hurt when unharmed ;33 [facepalming counts as harm]

[QUOTE=saasha][B]Yes, but that doesn't change the fact there are some aspects of the other that they can never completely get because they have had different experiences.[/B] They are not a carbon copy of each other that they can know exactly how the other feels in every aspect. It is humanely & psychologically impossible. Even the Manga addresses these facts- There are different kinds of pain & lonliness & everyone has a unique experience that they can relate  with & form their own unique bonds.[/QUOTE]

I never said anything that suggested that. Sorry if I don't think SasuSaku is so unique in a way beyond friendship/comradeship. For instance it's very arguable that Sai is used as a device to prove SasuNaru is brotherly, rather than show the need they have for each other in a special sense. [SPOILER][/SPOILER][SPOILER][/SPOILER][SPOILER][/SPOILER] That is far more sure than whatever SasuSaku. The thing is that Naruto and Sasuke [I]know[/I] each other, and not only "get to know each other". There was no need of avenger monologues or whatever you think is so easygoing about SasuSaku, when she's 1. a harmless (towards him)/caring girl, 2. his teammate. Naruto and Sasuke have EMPATHY that isn't petty teammate stuff. It's repressed, or the Pre-Team 7 bond matters wouldn't have popped out in the VotE illuminating SasuNaru fans permanently. Things were implied and confirmed by drama, so what? Just makes it deeper to me.
It was Sasuke himself who claimed Naruto to be someone who could read his thoughts by the exchange of fists.[SPOILER][/SPOILER] It was Naruto himself who claimed he and Sasuke didn't need to cross first to know from a subtle exchange of words that they were friends.[SPOILER][/SPOILER]It’s Naruto that always knew Sasuke was alone, and viceversa.
 Now, can you give me evidence of such deep understanding in SasuSaku? I think not.
I even have a quote of Kishi from his artbook about the illustration of the 181 chapter cover [lol @ coincidence] where he says [U]Naruto and Sasuke know each other very well that they can hold kunai to their throats calmly[/U].

[QUOTE]I acknowledge that Sasuke & Naruto have a mutual relationship, a mutual friendship, even the Manga has addressed this as fact. What I dont see is how this is canonically translated into mutual romantic reciprocation. It can only be interpreted as such.[/QUOTE]

It's not a question of whether or not you think SasuNaru is brotherly, the point is you cannot give SasuSaku credit it doesn't have by contrasting it to SasuNaru. [I]Also I'm not the person to say SasuNaru is [I]romantic[/I].[/I] I say it's not platonic. I'm not debating against things you haven't insinuated either if you remember the post you wrote that made me reply to you. I don't underestimate the SasuSaku bond by saying it has proved to be nothing more than mutual comradeship and care. I'm serious. People may say to me [I]what makes SasuNaru gay!?[/I] when I'd just would love to say in return, wth makes SasuSaku so heterosexually doubtless. SasuSaku has a chance, but a real random one. Sasuke doesn't need her "special" healing that Naruto can't give. I'm not saying this for fandom, but for what's based on the most evidence. It's not my fault if Sasuke remembered Naruto when she mentioned truluv loneliness, if he sacrificed his life for Naruto over revenge cos his body moved "automatically", has constant foreshadowing/literary devices with Naruto, acknowledged him as an equal despite of what that meant, specifically referring to Naruto as a cause for real pain of loneliness in breaking bonds, can repress his curseseal too, or his bond with Naruto has plenty of the focus it actually deserves.


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## Mogami Kyoko (Apr 25, 2009)

(I'm just nitpicking a few things that bugged me. )



BruceLeefan said:


> How would Hinata benefit from Narusaku? From her confession, we all know that Hinata wants to be more than just freinds with Naruto, she dreams of a day where she would finally catch up to Naruto and _walk side by side_ with him.Not just catch up to him.Hinata doesn't see Naruto as just admiration.It's more than that.Why would Kishi just leave Hinata hanging while he hooks up Naruto and Sakura after he clearly stated what Hinata wanted in life?Just why would he do that? It's cruel.



I couldn't help but notice that this piece of argument you threw out is all about Hinata, Hinata, Hinata and more Hinata. What about Naruto? That's one thing I never liked about NaruHina. It was always based off of Hinata's feelings and not Naruto's.
This is Naruto's series and its his story. I believe his feelings matter the most.

So, okay. Hinata loves Naruto. Cool. But what about Naruto? Last time we all checked, he's still in love with Sakura. He's not going to drop his feelings just like that to go for a girl he hardly even knows.
That's one of the problems with NaruHina. Naruto and Hinata don't know each other very well at all.
Hinata fell in love with Naruto because of his determination. She admired him because he was hated in the village and yet he never gave up. And she wanted to be like him. Other than that, she knows _nothing and absolutly nothing about him._
Naruto isn't in love with Hinata. Most of the time in the Ninja academy, he believed she was a dark and plain weirdo. Until their chat during the chunnin exams, that is. That is when Naruto accepted her as a _friend._

Naruto's famous saying in that conversation, "_I like *people like* you._" Is often flipped around into. "_I like you Hinata._"

And after that, they've been friends. Nothing more. At least that's Naruto's view. 

As forlong said, this manga *is not* about Hinata. It's all about _Naruto._
When you think about it, Lee and Hinata's situation are very, very similar. Lee risked his life to protect Sakura in the forest of death, because he "loved" her. 
Sakura still didn't accept his feelings. She respected his feelings and respected Lee, but nothing more.
Do we see Lee moping about it? Nope.
And if Naruto doesn't accept Hinata's feelings, then I believe she'll get over it as well. It's not like she'll turn emo for the rest of the series and be a "poor, tortured girl" like many people think she'll be if Naruto doesn't start dating her.
Besides...if Hinata truly does love Naruto, then _she'll be happy with whomever Naruto chooses to be with. Whether its her or not._ If she's not happy for him and gets all mopey about him not choosing her, then that would be kinda selfish of Hinata.

If Kishi doesn't pair Naruto with Hinata, then no. It would not be "cruel". 
I did a recent analyzation of Hinata in the manga recently. And what I came to; IMHO, her character is mostly all about Naruto. Most of the things she does, if not all, have something to do with Naruto.
A lot of people have said that her development was finished in chapter 437, while others say her development isn't finished. 
Since I don't believe in NaruHina, then I would say her final development would be to move on from Naruto and become her own person and make her own choices without doing it for someone else. AND getting her own inspiration instead of copying someone else's. Not to mention, finding her own strength instead of relying on Naruto. That's a horrible and bad way to live. 
Besides, there are other things she should be focusing on. Like becoming a better Ninja and the fact that she's the heiress of her clan.

Just a reminder, this series is NOT about Hinata. Very, very far from it, actually. Just because she stated something that she wanted, doesn't mean she's gonna get it. 
There are things I want in life. And I can't get them. 
You don't always get the things you want. It's a fact of life. 
And Hinata will have to deal with that harsh reality. 

(That reply was longer than I thought...)



gaara@ said:


> I am for NaruHina,i mean Hinata was in love in Naruto her hole life,and Sakura wasn't,she was saying he is annoying.....So...



I'm not sure if this would be considered a valid debate argument or not. 

Sakura sees Naruto in a whole new light. She's not the girl she was in Part 1. 
As for Hinata, why does her feelings only matter? Naruto has been in love with Sakura forever. So he should just throw is feelings to the side and go for Hinata? I don't think so. Sounds like double standards to me.


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## Forlong (Apr 25, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> As forlong said, this manga *is not* about Hinata. It's all about _Naruto._
> When you think about it, Lee and Hinata's situation are very, very similar. Lee risked his life to protect Sakura in the forest of death, because he "loved" her.
> Sakura still didn't accept his feelings. She respected his feelings and respected Lee, but nothing more.
> Do we see Lee moping about it? Nope.
> ...



Great point.  Thank you for making that statement.  I was actually unsure of how this could smooth out, but now I am (but not 100%).  Naruto will end up with Sakura, and Hinata's character development will be getting over him.


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## 王志鍵 (Apr 25, 2009)

Since I'm still trying to figure out this quote shit I guess I'll just have to reply like this:

@Serena-hime

Hmm what is Naruto about anyway?To put it in simple terms,
"Naruto" is about the life of a young ninja named Naruto and his pursuit for acknowledgement, love, respect, and acceptance among his villagers.
What does Naruto want most in life? Acknowledgement, love, respect, and acceptance.
Naruto worked hard everyday,he was determined to earn acknowledgement from his villagers.While everyone saw Naruto as a failure, there was one person who saw Naruto for who he truly was. That person was Hinata. A girl who had already acknowledged Naruto before he even realized he was being acknowledged.Hinata gave Naruto what he desperately seeked for, Acknowledgement.
Did I _just_ talk about Hinata in this paragraph?No, I mostly talked about Naruto.

I don't get what you mean by saying "she knows nothing and absolutly nothing about him." Hinata understood Naruto the most at the time when everyone thought he was just an annoying failure.

Alright, lets talk about Naruhina for a while.

Why is this pairing even still around?Kishimoto could've easily gotten rid of it if he didn't intend for it to happen.Just like how he got rid of Lee's feelings for Sakura. Naruhina would be a major obstacle to get over if he wanted Narusaku to happen in the end.So why hasn't he gotten rid of it yet? Hinata isn't even important right? 
But just when the Naruhina fans were about to give up, instead of getting rid of it, he goes and makes it even stronger than ever.

Hinata's confession wasn't just a half-assed confession like Lee's.No, it was a beautiful confession that made us fluffy inside. You can tell Kishimoto put alot of time and effort into making it the best confession in the series.

The time for Naruto's reply still hasn't come yet, but why would Naruto reject Hinata anyway? Why would he reject someone who openly admitted loving him? Naruto isn't a _playa_ you know.Naruto doesn't have a phonebook with a bunch of girl's digits inside.Isn't that one of the things Naruto has been searching for his whole life?Love?Well he certainly got it alright.

Lastly, let's talk about what you said about Hinata

Naruto is Hinata's inspiration, you can't deny that. Naruto inspires Hinata to find her own strength,work hard, and not give up.There's absolutely nothing wrong with finding someone to be inspired by. Unlike most shy girls in other anime, Hinata is actually trying hard to improve herself, being inspired by Naruto and all.




*sorry for my bad english, even though I read alot, I don't write much.


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## hmph (Apr 25, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Hmm what is Naruto about anyway?To put it in simple terms,
> "Naruto" is about the life of a young ninja named Naruto and his pursuit for acknowledgement, love, respect, and acceptance among his villagers.
> What does Naruto want most in life? Acknowledgement, love, respect, and acceptance.
> Naruto worked hard everyday,he was determined to earn acknowledgement from his villagers.While everyone saw Naruto as a failure, there was one person who saw Naruto for who he truly was. That person was Hinata. A girl who had already acknowledged Naruto before he even realized he was being acknowledged.Hinata gave Naruto what he desperately seeked for, Acknowledgement.
> Did I _just_ talk about Hinata in this paragraph?No, I mostly talked about Naruto.



Just pressing the "quote" button opens up an advanced reply with the quote in it. Press multi quote on any quote you want to add on, and press regular quote on the final thing being quoted to open up the reply.

Or just put [quot] [/quot] around what you want to have quoted after typing it out, except spell quote properly.

Anyways, back to shipping: Hinata never acknowledged Naruto in any dimension but her head. Regadless of her opinions, it never mattered. And anyways, long before Hinata, there was the Sandaime, the Yondaime, and possibly Iruka, if we want to go by what goes on in their heads. And for that very reasong, the argument I quoted falls apart.


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## Kage (Apr 25, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Naruto worked hard everyday,he was determined to earn acknowledgement from his villagers.While everyone saw Naruto as a failure, *there was one person who saw Naruto for who he truly was. That person was Hinata. A girl who had already acknowledged Naruto before he even realized he was being acknowledged.Hinata gave Naruto what he desperately seeked for, Acknowledgement.*
> Did I _just_ talk about Hinata in this paragraph?No, I mostly talked about Naruto.



this is the problem with NaruHina.  

Hinata's acknowledgment of who he was would have been real nice when he needed it most. acting like she gave him exactly what he always wanted from the very beginning is flawed for more reasons then one. primarily because *he never knew* so in a sense you are _still_ talking about only hinata because naruto was very much unaware, alone and sad.

the first to acknowledge him for who he was and _tell him so when he needed to hear it most_ was Iruka


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## Drunkenwhale (Apr 26, 2009)

Damn I hate going into this place... Little irks here and there.... Plus the fact my favorite pairing is One Piece based...



BruceLeefan said:


> Hinata's confession wasn't just a half-assed confession like Lee's.No, it was a beautiful confession that made us fluffy inside. You can tell Kishimoto put alot of time and effort into making it the best confession in the series.



It made some of you guys fluffy inside, it just creeped me out. As for best confession? She stated she always admired him, she was being selfish for wanting to hook up with him, and told him she loved him before Pain pretty much took her out of the fight.

That... And there's always a possibility for more confessions to be made, more beautiful than "this" one.



> The time for Naruto's reply still hasn't come yet, but why would Naruto reject Hinata anyway? Why would he reject someone who openly admitted loving him? Naruto isn't a _playa_ you know.Naruto doesn't have a phonebook with a bunch of girl's digits inside.Isn't that one of the things Naruto has been searching for his whole life?Love?Well he certainly got it alright.



Why would he reject her? Maybe because he might not feel the same way for her. It's been stated that the two barely know each other, Naruto didn't think much of her and Hinata mainly admires him, falling for him in the process. She doesn't know Naruto as much as she think she does.



> Naruto is Hinata's inspiration, you can't deny that. Naruto inspires Hinata to find her own strength,work hard, and not give up.There's absolutely nothing wrong with finding someone to be inspired by. Unlike most shy girls in other anime, Hinata is actually trying hard to improve herself, being inspired by Naruto and all.
> 
> *sorry for my bad english, even though I read alot, I don't write much.



But it can't be ignored that while she's still inspired by Naruto, she doesn't achieve much improvement. If anything, if she stops having Naruto be her constant inspiration she could more than likely have decent character development and become a more well-rounded character, along with ending her growth.

*Then practice more. One's english can always improve if they take the time to work on it. In other topics though it's best if you just type in the way you speak. Okay? =3


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## Amai106 (Apr 26, 2009)

to me hinata only "loves or likes" naruto out of admiration,she looks up to naruto, she wants to be like naruto,she follows naruto. example the fight between hinata and neji where naruto encourages her to fight. just because someone encourages you to do something doesnt mean u like them because of wat they did. who knows,that person could feel different about there actions or wat they feel like, and maybe naruto didnt want any1 to talk down to his friend, key word "FRIEND"


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## Mogami Kyoko (Apr 26, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Hmm what is Naruto about anyway?To put it in simple terms,
> "Naruto" is about the life of a young ninja named Naruto and his pursuit for acknowledgement, love, respect, and acceptance among his villagers.
> What does Naruto want most in life? Acknowledgement, love, respect, and acceptance.




That's true. But Naruto is grown up now. He's not the 12 year old boy who was desperate for anyone's love.
He HAS that acknowledgment he's been wanting. He has it from 
Iruka (The first official person to acknowledge Naruto.)
Sasuke 
Sakura 
Kakashi 
Jiraiya 
Tsunade 

Need I go on?

So Naruto has the acknowledgment and friends he's always wanted. It doesn't matter "who acknowledged Naruto first." 

The villager's have accepted Naruto.
He has people who respect him. (Like Konohamaru, for example.)
Love, he's still going after, and so far the person he wants Love/Romance from is still Sakura.

So Naruto has those already. The only two things he wants now is, to for fill his goal of bringing back his best friend/brother, Sasuke and to become Konohagure's very own Hokage.
I don't think Naruto is so desperate for love, that he would go out with any girl whom confessed to him.

Every manga has a main theme, by the way. Naruto's main theme, that I see right now, is "Bonds". Other themes include, "never giving up" and "friendship". But Friendship is kinda the same as Bonds.




> Naruto worked hard everyday,he was determined to earn acknowledgement from his villagers.While everyone saw Naruto as a failure, there was one person who saw Naruto for who he truly was. That person was Hinata. A girl who had already acknowledged Naruto before he even realized he was being acknowledged.Hinata gave Naruto what he desperately seeked for, Acknowledgement.
> Did I _just_ talk about Hinata in this paragraph?No, I mostly talked about Naruto.



I have to disagree with you on that.
Hinata *did not* give Naruto what he needed. For a long time, she kept it to herself. 
By the time she admitted that she admired him and acknowledged him, he was already being acknowledged by quite a few people. And that was during the chunnin exam. 
And because she acknowledged him, that's why he accepted her as his friend. That and because she seemed like a nice person.
But he didn't fall head over heels in love with her. And currently, he still isn't in love with her.
I'll say it again, his current love is still Sakura.

Plus, I don't think Hinata could completely see who Naruto was. The only thing she knew about him was that he was "the proud failure". That's all she saw him for and that's why she grew a crush on him.



> I don't get what you mean by saying "she knows nothing and absolutly nothing about him." Hinata understood Naruto the most at the time when everyone thought he was just an annoying failure.



Well, that's the only thing she knows about him, like I mentioned before. The only thing she knows about Naruto is that he's the "proud failure". Other than that, she doesn't know anything about him.
Besides. If I remember correctly, Iruka always knew that there had to be more to Naruto. So even though he got annoyed with him easily, he was still kind to Naruto. 
And I sure know that Iruka knows a lot more about Naruto than Hinata.



> Alright, lets talk about Naruhina for a while.
> 
> Why is this pairing even still around?Kishimoto could've easily gotten rid of it if he didn't intend for it to happen.Just like how he got rid of Lee's feelings for Sakura. Naruhina would be a major obstacle to get over if he wanted Narusaku to happen in the end.So why hasn't he gotten rid of it yet? Hinata isn't even important right?
> But just when the Naruhina fans were about to give up, instead of getting rid of it, he goes and makes it even stronger than ever.



Kishimoto is the author of Naruto. And believe it or not, he has had Naruto planned out for quite a while.
Why doesn't he end NaruHina? Because he knows that it's not time for that to happen yet. That's kind of like asking, "Why hasn't Naruto become Hokage yet?" Because Kishimoto has a planned time for that to happen and it's not now.

The way I see it, NaruHina is very, very close to an end. But we'll have to see.

The manga is closing to an end. Believe it or not. Kishimoto didn't end all the pairings that weren't going to happen, at once, because that would make for a pretty boring story. 
So he's canceling out the pairings one by one. NaruHina just happens to be on the later list. (At least I believe so.)

To be honest, I don't see how NaruHina is "stronger than ever". NaruHina has always had one fatal flaw. It's a one-sided love. 
And so far, that's all NaruHina has been. That's how it's been since the beginning to the current chapters. 
Everyone just got excited because Hinata confessed. Therefore, NaruHina has to end up with some kind of conclusion. And a lot of people believe that it'll end up with Naruto accepting her feelings.
I don't believe Naruto will. But to each their own.



> Hinata's confession wasn't just a half-assed confession like Lee's.No, it was a beautiful confession that made us fluffy inside. You can tell Kishimoto put alot of time and effort into making it the best confession in the series.



Oh? Is that so? The way I see it, Hinata's confession just annoyed me. 
But what effect Hinata's confession and Lee's confession have on people is different to everyone.
So, Lee's confession was only "half-assed" in your eyes and maybe to a few other people.
Hinata's confession being: "beautiful and made us feel all warm and fuzzy inside" is only your opinion as well. Me and a lot of other people I see/know, think otherwise. Believe it or not, there are quite a few people who were annoyed/angry/disgusted at Hinata's "confession".

Plus, Hinata's confession being, "The most beautiful confession in the series" is also only your opinion.
Some people may agree with you, other's may not.



> The time for Naruto's reply still hasn't come yet, but why would Naruto reject Hinata anyway? Why would he reject someone who openly admitted loving him? Naruto isn't a _playa_ you know.Naruto doesn't have a phonebook with a bunch of girl's digits inside.Isn't that one of the things Naruto has been searching for his whole life?Love?Well he certainly got it alright.



Alright. Let me ask you this.
"Why does Naruto HAVE to accept Hinata's feelings?"

If someone came up to you and confessed their feelings for you, and you hardly knew this person and didn't feel the same way...WOULD you accept their feelings just because they supposedly, "love you the most"?

Most people would answer "no", to that question. Naruto doesn't have any obligation or responsibility to accept Hinata's feelings. The way I see it, if he does, it will be out of pity. And therefore, Naruto would be unhappy.

Plus, where did this, "playa" thing come from? I never said Naruto was a player.

But, to answer your first question: "Why would Naruto reject Hinata?"
My answer is: "Because he doesn't feel the same way/he loves someone else."




> Lastly, let's talk about what you said about Hinata
> 
> Naruto is Hinata's inspiration, you can't deny that. Naruto inspires Hinata to find her own strength,work hard, and not give up.There's absolutely nothing wrong with finding someone to be inspired by. Unlike most shy girls in other anime, Hinata is actually trying hard to improve herself, being inspired by Naruto and all.



No, you're right. I can't deny that Naruto is Hinata's inspiration. BUT, that's one of the bigger problems about Hinata. That's one of her flaws. 
This all goes hand-in-hand with my recent research on Hinata's character.

Hinata shouldn't be relying on Naruto for strength, determination, and inspiration. That makes her a flat character. 
She needs to have her OWN strength. Her OWN determination. And her OWN inspiration. That way, she can become her own person and actually be independent. 
Yes, you can be inspired by someone, but to revolve your whole life around that person? Like how Hinata is? That's very bad.

I have a question for you.
Have you asked yourself, "Why is Hinata trying to be better?"
I have an answer. Because she wants to be acknowledged by _Naruto._
That's what her whole character is about. Naruto, Naruto, Naruto. And that's one of the things that annoys me about her. Her whole entirety is based around Naruto. And that's bad. 
It makes her look like she has no life out side of Naruto, Naruto and more Naruto.
If she's going to be developed, she first needs to get rid of her Naruto obsession and move on. 

Hinata is like how Sakura was in Part 1.
Sasuke was Sakura's life. Everything was about Sasuke, Sasuke, Sasuke. Sasuke was her life. Her inspiration. Her strength. Her happiness. Her everything. And when Sasuke rejected her and betrayed Konoha, that's when her eyes were starting to open to reality.
And because of her realizing reality, that's when she was able to find her *own strength, power, determination and inspiration.* Her life was no longer orbiting around a boy. Sakura grew up, matured and became stronger because of seeing the light of reality.
Plus, when Sasuke left, she was able to not only see reality, but to see Naruto in a new light. 
And that's one of the reasons why Sakura is one of my favorite characters. She became independent and strong.
Something Hinata has yet to accomplish. I believe for Hinata to become like Sakura (having her own power, inspiration, determination, ect.) she needs to move her obsession with Naruto so it's no longer blocking the light of reality.

So until that happens, Hinata is no better than Sakura was in Part 1.




> *sorry for my bad english, even though I read alot, I don't write much.



Nah, it's all good.


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## mystic868 (Apr 26, 2009)

Naruto is Hinata's source of inspiration. She became stronger because she was watching his strong will of life. And in my opinion she misjudged her feelings of admiration with real love for him. Even if her feelings are really love, still Naruto is thinking about her only as a great person/friend not as a girlfriend. So it's one sided. Also it's as it was said already - this pairing will finish soon, when Hinata will understand that she just wanted to find person similar to her, which will give her strengh and determination to become strong, reliable shinobi. Then she will start to look for her real life road.
As for Sakura I can tell that she was introduced to us and evolved from the beginning. She is also most important person to Naruto(as much or even more than Sasuke). She is the "woman of his dreams". Of course her annoying behavior was shown to complicate a little their mutual relationships. Because isn't that too sweet to see that she will agree to dating, and kissing and everything from his side? It was their destiny to grow up. Naruto in my opinion already grown up. As for Sakura... well she is still a little far away from the state Naruto is already in. But it will change soon or it already started to change during chapter 443.
To sum up - Hinata is really great person and I wish her to be happy with someone who will retaliate her feelings, but Naruto should ends up with his lifelong companion - Sakura.


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## PinkLover (Apr 26, 2009)

I am pretty sure naruto will end up with sakura....after all he is a main character and he always liked sakura....plus sakura got over sasuke ( i think ) and now in shippuden sakura likes naruto,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Hinata is a nice girl and i think she will understand that naruto likes sakura.....and by the way kiba likes hinata and kibahina will make such a cute couple.
so i'll say NaruSaku and KibaHina


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## PinkLover (Apr 26, 2009)

and by the way i love mystic868's comment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Naruto is Hinata's source of inspiration. She became stronger because she was watching his strong will of life. And in my opinion she misjudged her feelings of admiration with real love for him. Even if her feelings are really love, still Naruto is thinking about her only as a great person/friend not as a girlfriend. So it's one sided. Also it's as it was said already - this pairing will finish soon, when Hinata will understand that she just wanted to find person similar to her, which will give her strengh and determination to become strong, reliable shinobi. Then she will start to look for her real life road.
As for Sakura I can tell that she was introduced to us and evolved from the beginning. She is also most important person to Naruto(as much or even more than Sasuke). She is the "woman of his dreams". Of course her annoying behavior was shown to complicate a little their mutual relationships. Because isn't that too sweet to see that she will agree to dating, and kissing and everything from his side. It was their destiny to grow up. Naruto in my opinion already grown up. As for Sakura... well she is still a little far away from the state Naruto is already in. But it will change soon or it already started to change during chapter 443.
To sum up - Hinata is really great person and I wish her to be happy with someone who will retaliate her feelings, but Naruto should ends up with his lifelong companion - Sakura.


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## mystic868 (Apr 26, 2009)

PinkLover said:


> and by the way i love mystic868's comment



Thank you


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## Griever (Apr 26, 2009)

Well i think that Hinata confessed to add drama nothing more, i don't really see any romance in the future of Naruto and Hinata. kishi just want's to tip the Scales alittle i think to make the fans panic and celabrate alittle bit, before he makes a final pairing for Naruto. 
But on the note if Naruto and Sakura i think there has been to much development between the 2 to push then aside due to a confession by Hinata, if anything it will make Sakura more aggressive in trying to get Naruto. because as of this point in the manga Sakura hasn't said anything about how she feels for naruto only in action... Maybe Hinata acted as a bridge to make Sakura open up and say how she feels about Naruto.


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## Saunion (Apr 26, 2009)

> The time for Naruto's reply still hasn't come yet, but why would Naruto reject Hinata anyway? Why would he reject someone who openly admitted loving him? Naruto isn't a playa you know.Naruto doesn't have a phonebook with a bunch of girl's digits inside.Isn't that one of the things Naruto has been searching for his whole life?Love?Well he certainly got it alright.



This I find very interesting. Naruto isn't a "playa", indeed. So I guess he's pathetic to the point of falling in love with the first girl who tells him she loves him? Seriously, read what you post. 

Naruto had plenty of opportunities to seek romantic love with another girl than Sakura during all these chapters. He never did, especially not with Hinata. Why is that? 

If he's hopeless for romantic love, if he "likes people like Hinata", if he knows he has zero chance with Sakura, and finally if he's not that serious with his feelings for Sakura... Then why is she the only one he's been pursuing romantically? Something doesn't add up.

The way NaruHina fans portray Naruto is simply contradictory with what's been shown in the manga. Naruto is NOT hopeless for romantic love. He isn't some kind of pathetic love sick puppy who'd hump random girls legs for attention. 

What Naruto has been searching for his whole life has never been romantic love first and foremost. Simply love, people acknowledging him and caring for him. And Naruto has that, since chapter 1 with Iruka actually TELLING him what he so desperatly needed to hear.

I can't believe Hinata is actually being praised for her complete lack of action when Naruto needed it the most. "She gave him what he needed"... What? How the hell did she give him anything? Through telepathy? You can't just think about people in your mind and pretend you helped them that way. You also have to act. 

Hinata never did, not before Iruka, then Team 7, then Jiraiya and Tsunade and Gaara and Minato gave Naruto what he was looking for. That's why he only considers her as a good friend, and not one of his precious people. She wasn't one of these people who saved him from the pain of loneliness. Reread the Gaara fight.

So there, once again it's interesting to see that in order for NaruHina to work its supporters need to twist characters and actions into things that simply contradict the manga: making Naruto a pathetic social reject like he was before the story started, and Hinata an admirable angel of compassion who was the first to reach out to Naruto.  

Sorry, but it didn't happen like that.


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## 王志鍵 (Apr 26, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> The villager's have accepted Naruto.
> He has people who respect him. (Like Konohamaru, for example.)
> Love, he's still going after, and so far the person he wants Love/Romance from is still Sakura.
> 
> ...


Yes,Naruto is much more respected nowadays, which is awesome since he got what he wanted his whole life.But Naruto is still feeling the pain of being a Jinchuriki.His pain isn't fully eliminated yet.We can tell from the recent chapters, Naruto actually feels for Pein.He's relating his own pain to Pein's pain.Why would he care if he didn't?
Naruto only started being acknowledged by other people, besides Iruka and Hinata of course, after he became a ninja.People saw him as a failure before that.It wasn't until he stopped being a failure,is when people finally saw his true strength and started respecting him. Hinata was the only person that saw his stength even when he was still a failure.That's true understanding there.
Btw, Kishimoto stated that the overall theme of Naruto Part II is, "People accepting other people". Rejection would contradict this theme.


Serena-hime said:


> Plus, I don't think Hinata could completely see who Naruto was. The only thing she knew about him was that he was "the proud failure". That's all she saw him for and that's why she grew a crush on him.


Hmmm...good points, good points.But what other things are there to know about Naruto besides being a "Proud Failure"? Currently, Hinata knows that he's a strong person, doesn't give up, works hard, a good and caring person, doesn't break promises, and she feels his pain. What else is there?Hmmm...




Serena-hime said:


> Well, that's the only thing she knows about him, like I mentioned before. The only thing she knows about Naruto is that he's the "proud failure". Other than that, she doesn't know anything about him.
> Besides. If I remember correctly, Iruka always knew that there had to be more to Naruto. So even though he got annoyed with him easily, he was still kind to Naruto.
> And I sure know that Iruka knows a lot more about Naruto than Hinata.


She doesn't know what about him? Got any examples? I basically stated what Hinata knew about Naruto before.Oh wait, I got one, He's mildly perverted, yeah...that's one.




Serena-hime said:


> Kishimoto is the author of Naruto. And believe it or not, he has had Naruto planned out for quite a while.
> Why doesn't he end NaruHina? Because he knows that it's not time for that to happen yet. That's kind of like asking, "Why hasn't Naruto become Hokage yet?" Because Kishimoto has a planned time for that to happen and it's not now.
> 
> The way I see it, NaruHina is very, very close to an end. But we'll have to see.
> ...


Hmmm I guess Kishimoto likes dealing with more problems then. I don't really see the importance of Naruhina if Narusaku would happen in the end. I still don't get why he decided to make Hinata confess.
Like all typical shy girls in other manga that don't confess,Not having her confess would be even better wouldn't it? Especially for a girl that looks at Naruto as just inspiration to get stronger. Hmmm just why did he make her confess? It's too early to figure out, but maybe it would mean something more in the future. who knows..



Serena-hime said:


> To be honest, I don't see how NaruHina is "stronger than ever". NaruHina has always had one fatal flaw. It's a one-sided love.
> And so far, that's all NaruHina has been. That's how it's been since the beginning to the current chapters.
> Everyone just got excited because Hinata confessed. Therefore, NaruHina has to end up with some kind of conclusion. And a lot of people believe that it'll end up with Naruto accepting her feelings.
> I don't believe Naruto will. But to each their own.


And rejection wouldn't totally contradict with the overall theme  of partII right?Keep in mind that Naruto still thinks Sakura is in love with Sasuke,why would he reject someone just to be with a girl that loves someone else?





Serena-hime said:


> Oh? Is that so? The way I see it, Hinata's confession just annoyed me.
> But what effect Hinata's confession and Lee's confession have on people is different to everyone.
> So, Lee's confession was only "half-assed" in your eyes and maybe to a few other people.
> Hinata's confession being: "beautiful and made us feel all warm and fuzzy inside" is only your opinion as well. Me and a lot of other people I see/know, think otherwise. Believe it or not, there are quite a few people who were annoyed/angry/disgusted at Hinata's "confession".
> ...


I can see why other people are "annoyed/angry/disgusted" at her confession. There are some things Narusaku fans don't see in Naruhina, and there are some things Naruhina fans don't see in Narusaku. Some people might see it as "rushed" or "unplanned", but other people see it as something that wasn't "rushed" or "unplanned", but developed overtime and was bound to happen.



Serena-hime said:


> Alright. Let me ask you this.
> "Why does Naruto HAVE to accept Hinata's feelings?"
> 
> If someone came up to you and confessed their feelings for you, and you hardly knew this person and didn't feel the same way...WOULD you accept their feelings just because they supposedly, "love you the most"?
> ...


I would certainly look at that person differrently, that's for sure, who knows what might happen in the future.




Serena-hime said:


> Hinata shouldn't be relying on Naruto for strength, determination, and inspiration. That makes her a flat character.
> She needs to have her OWN strength. Her OWN determination. And her OWN inspiration. That way, she can become her own person and actually be independent.
> Yes, you can be inspired by someone, but to revolve your whole life around that person? Like how Hinata is? That's very bad.


It's called being in love with someone, my friend.
It's too early to judge what Hinata would be in the future, but a character can certainly grow strong while loving a person at the same time.


Serena-hime said:


> I have a question for you.
> Have you asked yourself, "Why is Hinata trying to be better?"
> I have an answer. Because she wants to be acknowledged by _Naruto._
> That's what her whole character is about. Naruto, Naruto, Naruto. And that's one of the things that annoys me about her. Her whole entirety is based around Naruto. And that's bad.
> ...


Hinata trying to be better for herself, her family, her team, and yes, Naruto.Not Just Naruto.


Serena-hime said:


> Hinata is like how Sakura was in Part 1.
> Sasuke was Sakura's life. Everything was about Sasuke, Sasuke, Sasuke. Sasuke was her life. Her inspiration. Her strength. Her happiness. Her everything. And when Sasuke rejected her and betrayed Konoha, that's when her eyes were starting to open to reality.
> And because of her realizing reality, that's when she was able to find her *own strength, power, determination and inspiration.* Her life was no longer orbiting around a boy. Sakura grew up, matured and became stronger because of seeing the light of reality.Plus, when Sasuke left, she was able to not only see reality, but to see Naruto in a new light.



I don't really think you should compare Naruto with Sasuke since they are completely different people. Naruto wouldn't coldly reject someone, or betray Konoha.Hinata also had *true* reasons to like someone.While Sakura, well...lets just say her reasons weren't as good, but she certainly bonded well with Sasuke before he took off to find power, and kill Itachi.


Serena-hime said:


> And that's one of the reasons why Sakura is one of my favorite characters. She became independent and strong.


Yeah I like Sakura too.


Serena-hime said:


> Something Hinata has yet to accomplish. I believe for Hinata to become like Sakura (having her own power, inspiration, determination, ect.) she needs to move her obsession with Naruto so it's no longer blocking the light of reality.


I'm pretty sure a character can be strong and love someone at the same time.Actually, Love makes someone stronger, am I right?Just like what Dumbledore said in Harry Potter.



Serena-hime said:


> So until that happens, Hinata is no better than Sakura was in Part 1.


It's too early to judge her now, but in the future we will know.






Serena-hime said:


> Nah, it's all good.


thx


----------



## Amai106 (Apr 26, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Hinata also had *true* reasons to like someone.While Sakura, well...lets just say her reasons weren't as good, but she certainly bonded well with Sasuke before he took off to find power, and kill Itachi.



how can u say sakura and sasuke bonded well together,when he rejected her everytime she asked him to go out on a date??other than sasuke being on the team they didnt talk or have a friendly conversation, sakura didnt give sasuke that warm cute smile that she gives naruto whenever he makes her happy or makes her feel like shes special.

let me ask u this,did sasuke ever put the effort into making sakura happy or even tell her that shes beautiful??did sasuke try so hard to impress sakura that he faild but still made her feel special and happy??

can u explain these "true" reasons why hinata likes naruto and not sakura??


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## 王志鍵 (Apr 26, 2009)

Amai106 said:


> how can u say sakura and sasuke bonded well together,when he rejected her everytime she asked him to go out on a date??other than sasuke being on the team they didnt talk or have a friendly conversation, he didnt make sakura give him that warm cute smile that she gives naruto whenever he makes her happy or makes her feel like shes special.
> 
> let me ask u this,did sasuke ever put the effort into making sakura happy or even tell her that shes beautiful??did sasuke try so hard to impress sakura that he faild but still made her feel special and happy??
> 
> can u explain these "true" reasons why hinata likes naruto and not sakura??



Sasuke did care for Sakura you know. Like during the Naruto vs Gaara fight.Sasuke didn't want to lose Sakura. He also cared about Naruto alot, wanting to save Naruto from Itachi and all.But his meeting with Itachi changed him.
Sasuke is a cocky individual you know,showing emotions on the outside,like the ones you listed is rare.(unless he changes himself)
Hinata liked Naruto because of the reasons I stated before (Look up^)
Sakura liked Sasuke because he's hot, talented, and smart.(hmm, yeah I guess those are real reasons to like someone)


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## Erendhyl (Apr 26, 2009)

Amai106 said:


> how can u say sakura and sasuke bonded well together,when he rejected her everytime she asked him to go out on a date??other than sasuke being on the team they didnt talk or have a friendly conversation, he didnt make sakura give him that warm cute smile that she gives naruto whenever he makes her happy or makes her feel like shes special.



Can you please provide a panel of the "warm cute smile that she gives Naruto whenever he makes her happy"? I am not sure what precisely you are referring to with that comment.

I really don't get why you are saying that Sasuke and Sakura did not bond just because he rejected her date requests. Sakura has rejected three out of four date requests Naruto has made towards her (with the one she has accepted being the one where they had been initially planning to have Kakashi come along as well, and she only agreed to go with just Naruto after saying that he would have to pay). And yet I don't think that this in any way says that the two of them don't share a bond.

Date acceptances =/= bonding. Here we see Sasuke's curse seal recede because of Sakura. Here we see Sasuke tell Naruto to save Sakura. And here we see Sasuke tell Pakkun to take care of her. I am not trying to say that either of those moments indicates romantic feelings from Sasuke to Sakura. What I am trying to say is that Sasuke and Sakura _did_ share a bond. It is not as strong as the one Sasuke shared with Naruto, but it _is_ there, and it _is_ important to them.

I am honestly trying to list the times Sakura asked Sasuke for a date and he rejected her, and the only ones I can think of are the time while they were on the way back from the Land of Waves and the one that occurred during the short downtime between the Land of Waves and the Chuunin Exams. Both of which occurred so early on in her development that even I as a Sakura fan and a SasuSaku fan would refer to her as a fangirl.



> let me ask u this,did sasuke ever put the effort into making sakura happy or even tell her that shes beautiful??did sasuke try so hard to impress sakura that he faild but still made her feel special and happy??



Here, we see Sasuke cheer Sakura up when she is upset.

Has Naruto ever told Sakura that she was beautiful _to her face_? He referred to her as "cute" in chapter 3, but that was in his mind. He complimented her large forehead later in that same chapter (while masquerading as Sasuke), but ruined the compliment by laughing it off and saying it was something that Naruto would say. (Which, given that Sakura thought he was Sasuke at the time, and not Naruto, did not make her feel very complimented.) When asked if she looked more womanly in chapter 245, he responded that she looked the same as ever (not what Sakura wanted to hear, judging by the anger veins she has in the next panel).

I am wondering about the last sentence of this quoted bit. Has Naruto ever "tried to hard to impress Sakura that he failed but still made her feel special and happy"? If so, can you please provide a link to the chapter in which he did so? I honestly cannot remember an instance of him making her feel special and happy when he was actually _trying_ to impress her.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 26, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Naruto worked hard everyday,he was determined to earn acknowledgement from his villagers.While everyone saw Naruto as a failure, there was one person who saw Naruto for who he truly was. That person was Hinata. A girl who had already acknowledged Naruto before he even realized he was being acknowledged.Hinata gave Naruto what he desperately seeked for, Acknowledgement.


You could also say that Naruto has erned Sakura's love an admiration, like he's erned respect from the village.
And let's actually _read_ the manga for a second.  The first girl to acknowledge and admire Naruto in any way was Sakura.
ZARU!



BruceLeefan said:


> The time for Naruto's reply still hasn't come yet, but why would Naruto reject Hinata anyway? Why would he reject someone who openly admitted loving him? Naruto isn't a _playa_ you know.  Naruto doesn't have a phonebook with a bunch of girl's digits inside.  Isn't that one of the things Naruto has been searching for his whole life?  Love?  Well he certainly got it alright.


Why would Naruto reject Hinata?  What, the fact that he doesn't love her isn't good enough for you!?  Sakura managed to keep from being mean after rejecting Lee, didn't she?
And I don't recall having a girlfriend, wife, or family being all that important to Naruto.



BruceLeefan said:


> Naruto is Hinata's inspiration, you can't deny that. Naruto inspires Hinata to find her own strength,work hard, and not give up.There's absolutely nothing wrong with finding someone to be inspired by. Unlike most shy girls in other anime, Hinata is actually trying hard to improve herself, being inspired by Naruto and all.


Same with Sakura.  How is that any different?



Serena-hime said:


> So Naruto has the acknowledgment and friends he's always wanted. It doesn't matter "who acknowledged Naruto first."


I like how Sakura has _verbally_ acknowledged Naruto for years, and still doesn't deserve the time day; but Hinata just ackowledges him in her mind, and she's basicly the Virgin Mary. 



Serena-hime said:


> And that's one of the reasons why Sakura is one of my favorite characters. She became independent and strong.


You know, in the offical Naruto anniversary polls, Sakura is more popular than Hinata.  Hinata was only voted more popular twice.  Currently Sakura is in 6th and Hinata in 11th.



BruceLeefan said:


> People saw him as a failure before that.  It wasn't until he stopped being a failure, is when people finally saw his true strength and started respecting him.


People didn't like Naruto because they saw him as a monster.  NOT a failure.



BruceLeefan said:


> Hmmm I guess Kishimoto likes dealing with more problems then. I don't really see the importance of Naruhina if Narusaku would happen in the end. I still don't get why he decided to make Hinata confess.


Why bother with all those hints on Sakura's feelings for Naruto, if nothing happens?  See how sad that arguement is? 



BruceLeefan said:


> Like all typical shy girls in other manga that don't confess, Not having her confess would be even better wouldn't it? Especially for a girl that looks at Naruto as just inspiration to get stronger. Hmmm just why did he make her confess?


I think Kishimoto-sensei has already prooven that he has no desire to "follow the crowd".



BruceLeefan said:


> And rejection wouldn't totally contradict with the overall theme  of partII right?


And Naruto giving up on winning Sakura's love _wouldn't_? 



BruceLeefan said:


> It's called being in love with someone, my friend.


Yeah, but Sakura and Lee both managed to have a _life_ outside their crushes.



BruceLeefan said:


> Hinata trying to be better for herself, her family, her team, and yes, Naruto. Not Just Naruto.


When did Hinata say that she wanted her father's approval?  Or Neji's?  I don't recall anything of that nature.


----------



## Amai106 (Apr 26, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Sasuke did care for Sakura you know. Like during the Naruto vs Gaara fight.Sasuke didn't want to lose Sakura.



sasuke dont give shit about sakura,he wanted to kill her example in the reunion:chapter 308 pg 6-7. where sasuke pulls out his sword and tries to stab sakura.is that wat u call love
as sasuke said he will kill anyone that will get in the way of him killing itachi


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## 王志鍵 (Apr 26, 2009)

Amai106 said:


> sasuke dont give shit about sakura,he wanted to kill her example in the reunion:chapter 308 pg 6-7. where sasuke pulls out his sword and tries to stab sakura.is that wat u call love
> as sasuke said he will kill anyone that will get in the way of him killing itachi



And that is what makes Sasuke different from Naruto.So I don't think Naruhina would have the same outcome as Part1's Sasusaku.

Well Sasuke was Normal before he met Itachi, that's all I'm saying.
I'm sure Naruto can change him. He's better than Jiraya after all.
I doubt Kishimoto would let him make the same mistake as his master.


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## Amai106 (Apr 26, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> Can you please provide a panel of the "warm cute smile that she gives Naruto whenever he makes her happy"? I am not sure what precisely you are referring to with that comment.
> 
> I really don't get why you are saying that Sasuke and Sakura did not bond just because he rejected her date requests. Sakura has rejected three out of four date requests Naruto has made towards her (with the one she has accepted being the one where they had been initially planning to have Kakashi come along as well, and she only agreed to go with just Naruto after saying that he would have to pay). And yet I don't think that this in any way says that the two of them don't share a bond.
> 
> ...



here is the picture

[pic]

[/IMG]
[/pic]

ok well maybe not the date request,but have sakura and sasuke ever have a friendly conversation??

if your saying that they share a bond,wat kind of bond do they share??


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 26, 2009)

I think *BruceLeefan* is looking a little outnumbered here, maybe i should provide some friendly support...

I've already put forward all of my points, and reposted some of my arguments so i'll just sum up.

Naruto doesn't *love* Sakura, in my opinion.  Not *romantically* in any case.  Why?

Because all of the supposed "romantic" moments between them can also be interpreted as "friendship" moments.  The proof of these moments being friendship over romance is that any moment that has even a little romantic implication goes on to lack one massive thing:

Follow up.

If Naruto is so determined to "win Sakura's love", then where is the proof?  If the NaruSaku story is one of built-up love then where is the clear romantic progression that can't be attributed to friendship?  With so much interaction between the two of them as teammates, added to the amount of time that we have observed that is between their missions, added to the "never giving up attitude" that Naruto should supposedly be exhibiting in this case, why haven't we seen a planned date request?  Prove that Naruto is *pursuing* Sakura beyond what he has already gained, a very close *friendship*.  Please.

Because if the maximum Naruto's supposed romantic "love" for Sakura can produce from him is spur-of-the-moment, inappropriately-timed date requests then i would have to call into question the use of the word "love" in a romantic context.

And on that basis, accepting that Naruto doesn't seem to love Sakura romantically and is seemingly not pursuing her romantically, what reason is stopping Naruto from accepting Hinata's feelings?  The only two i can think of are "I'm gay" and "I'm not attracted to you".

The former would make this forum explode with Yaoi-ness and force me into kneeling before *izzyisozaki* and apologising profusely (i totally respect your stance by the way *izzy*, i just don't share it.  Either way, i'm glad i didn't get flayed alive ).

The latter would be such a massive anti-climax i would have to applaud Kishimoto for writing it.

Is what i think...


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## Amai106 (Apr 26, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> I think *BruceLeefan* is looking a little outnumbered here, maybe i should provide some friendly support...
> 
> I've already put forward all of my points, and reposted some of my arguments so i'll just sum up.
> 
> ...



first of all, Naruto is not a shojo,so of course there isnt going to be any major romantic senes and as i recall in an interview that kishi did,he said he wasnt good at romance.

also,have you ever seen any romantic moments with naruto and hinata??you hardly see the girl in the manga except the past few weeks.i have yet to seen a "romantic" naruhina moment.

wat kind of bond does naruto and hinata have??


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## XXXTurkey (Apr 26, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> you neglect to mention he then changes his view during the henge scene when he comes to realize what he loved about her. (official translation)



Did the official translation say "love"?  I don't think it did... it said "like", i'm fairly sure (but willing to be corrected if you have proof).

But again, where's the follow up?  If he has loved her for this long (which i would seriously dispute) then my point still stands.  Why isn't he pursuing her more actively?  I don't see it.


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## Forlong (Apr 26, 2009)

Amai106 said:


> here is the picture
> 
> [pic]
> 
> ...


Er...just before the page you posted there. 



XXXTurkey said:


> Naruto doesn't *love* Sakura, in my opinion.  Not *romantically* in any case.  Why?
> 
> Because all of the supposed "romantic" moments between them can also be interpreted as "friendship" moments.  The proof of these moments being friendship over romance is that any moment that has even a little romantic implication goes on to lack one massive thing:
> 
> Follow up.


This arguement has been made against _several_ now cannon pairings.  I'm not going to bother naming any of them, as that's not the point of this thread.
How 'bout chapters 296 & 297, which lead up to this?  Yamato is clearly about to say Sakura loves Naruto.  If Kishimoto-sensei is going to have a payoff for a minor character like Hinata, why would he do this for no reason?
And before that is this.
Sakura's promise to Naruto > Defending Sasuke's honor



XXXTurkey said:


> If Naruto is so determined to "win Sakura's love", then where is the proof?  If the NaruSaku story is one of built-up love then where is the clear romantic progression that can't be attributed to friendship?  With so much interaction between the two of them as teammates, added to the amount of time that we have observed that is between their missions, added to the "never giving up attitude" that Naruto should supposedly be exhibiting in this case, why haven't we seen a planned date request?  Prove that Naruto is *pursuing* Sakura beyond what he has already gained, a very close *friendship*.


He doesn't want to risk losing what he's got.
As for him making no plans.  Although this series has been running for 10 years, Naruto and Sakura have had very little free time.  The only gap in time sufficent for Naruto to plan a date with Sakura was after failing to get Sasuke back.  Do you think planning a date with her would be on his mind, after letting her down like that?
That's why it's mostly spur-of-the-moment.  They could be asked to leave the village any moment.  Also, Naruto doesn't exactly have a lot of people to turn to for advice on women.  No chance he'd ask Jiraiya.  Maybe Kakashi.  And Tsunade, I don't know.



XXXTurkey said:


> And on that basis, accepting that Naruto doesn't seem to love Sakura romantically and is seemingly not pursuing her romantically, what reason is stopping Naruto from accepting Hinata's feelings?  The only two i can think of are "I'm gay" and "I'm not attracted to you".


You forgot "Madara will rip your heart out".  Nobody seems to think about that possibility.



XXXTurkey said:


> The latter would be such a massive anti-climax i would have to applaud Kishimoto for writing it.


Yeah like...

*Spoiler*: __ 



...Kakashi dying to protect Choji.  Oh, wait. 




Note: Read my sig and you'll realise the truth about Hinata's love confession.


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 26, 2009)

Sasuke is an interesting point.  Both Naruto and Sakura have been chasing after Sasuke for most of Part II, even though Sasuke has pretty much stated he has no intention of going back. In fact that's been the main point for Naruto and Sakura working so closely together.  Generally, it seems, when a tender moment comes along (ramen scene), it's closely associated with their desire to return Sasuke.  Or, as I've said elsewhere, Naruto and Sakura's relationship seems to be in terms largely of their mutual relation to Sasuke.

Of course, this might simply be a story device to bring them closer together, period.  But I'm pretty sure Sasuke is going to come back because a) Naruto said he was going to bring him back, and Naruto never goes back on his word; b) Jiraiya told Naruto it was impossible, and Naruto always proves him wrong when he says that; and c) Naruto said that somebody who can't bring back a freind isn't worthy to become Hokage.  And Naruto wants to be Hokage.

Now, this isn't really the time/place to debate Sasuke's return, perhaps.  But while it doesn't necessarily follow that Sakura is going to jump back into Sasuke's arms the minute he comes back, it's nonetheless hard to see it going any other way.  At the very least, Sakura still thinks she's in love with Sasuke, and there has to be SOME reason for Sasuke to return to the village.  If he just comes back and stands in the corner, it's kinda stupid.  

I suppose he could come "in their hour of need" and then die, but that seems equally stupid.


----------



## Saunion (Apr 26, 2009)

? Sasuke can't come back to the village if he doesn't hook up with Sakura?

What kind of reasoning is that? No seriously now. What?


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 26, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Because he is chasing after Sasuke maybe? unless chasing after a girl is more important



One point i can draw from that:

Naruto's bond with Sasuke is stronger than Naruto's with Sakura, in that Naruto is not "chasing" the girl he "loves" in order to concentrate on Sasuke.  *izzy* would love this argument.

The other point i will argue:

There *has* been time for Naruto to go "chasing" Sakura.  When he damaged his arm after the Kazuku fight, he couldn't train.  Did we see any effort or planning on his part that would prove his "love" to Sakura?  I didn't see any...

I wish i was on my computer so i could have manga evidence to prove stuff. 



> first of all, Naruto is not a shojo,so of course there isnt going to be any major romantic senes and as i recall in an interview that kishi did,he said he wasnt good at romance.
> 
> also,have you ever seen any romantic moments with naruto and hinata??you hardly see the girl in the manga except the past few weeks.i have yet to seen a "romantic" naruhina moment.
> 
> wat kind of bond does naruto and hinata have??



I was arguing that Naruto does not love Sakura.  Hinata only enters the picture when you consider what is stopping Naruto from pursuing a relationship with her now.  On the basis that Naruto doesn't love Sakura, the answer is nothing.

And in terms of openly romantic moments, NaruHina has had one.  In which Hinata states and then proves her love for Naruto by defending him and attacking Pain.

It's one sided at the moment, but like i said, there is nothing stopping Naruto from seriously considering Hinata as a love interest.  We'll have to wait and see.

I believe we will see what NaruSaku has not had.  *Follow up*.

But on that note, i have to go to bed.  Hope i've at least raised debateable issues.  I originally came here to defend an  embattled like-minded person .

EDIT:



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> *He doesn't want to risk losing what he's got.*
> As for him making no plans. Although this series has been running for 10 years, Naruto and Sakura have had very little free time. The only gap in time sufficent for Naruto to plan a date with Sakura was after failing to get Sasuke back. Do you think planning a date with her would be on his mind, after letting her down like that?
> That's why it's mostly spur-of-the-moment. They could be asked to leave the village any moment. Also, Naruto doesn't exactly have a lot of people to turn to for advice on women. No chance he'd ask Jiraiya. Maybe Kakashi. And Tsunade, I don't know.



And you are basing this unseen thought of Naruto's on what?

I said above that Naruto has had time.  Plus, what about the entire time-skip.  If he's "loved" Sakura for as long as people claim then i think *three years* to plan *one date request* should be sufficent time.

And why does Naruto need romantic advice from anyone?  Again, if he does love her then shouldn't he be able to express it himself?



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> This arguement has been made against several now cannon pairings. I'm not going to bother naming any of them, as that's not the point of this thread.
> How 'bout chapters 296 & 297, which lead up to this? Yamato is clearly about to say Sakura loves Naruto. If Kishimoto-sensei is going to have a payoff for a minor character like Hinata, why would he do this for no reason?
> And before that is this.
> Sakura's promise to Naruto > Defending Sasuke's honor



I was arguing Naruto does not love Sakura.  But since you mention it, where is the follow up in this case?  These "romantic" moments are hazy, open to interpretation and have not been followed up.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> Note: Read my sig and you'll realise the truth about Hinata's love confession.





Goodnight.


----------



## Tenrol (Apr 26, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> One point i can draw from that:
> 
> Naruto's bond with Sasuke is stronger than Naruto's with Sakura, in that Naruto is not "chasing" the girl he "loves" in order to concentrate on Sasuke.  *izzy* would love this argument.




What i mean is saving Sasuke is more important than  pursue a romantic relationship with someone.




> There *has* been time for Naruto to go "chasing" Sakura.  When he damaged his arm after the Kazuku fight, he couldn't train.  Did we see any effort or planning on his part that would prove his "love" to Sakura?  I didn't see any...



Well there was only one (or 2 but it was focused on Sasuke barely on Naruto) chapter where we see Naruto with his broken arm and it's in 343 when he is blushing at Sakura romanticaly.


----------



## Saunion (Apr 26, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> One point i can draw from that:
> 
> Naruto's bond with Sasuke is stronger than Naruto's with Sakura, in that Naruto is not "chasing" the girl he "loves" in order to concentrate on Sasuke.  *izzy* would love this argument.
> 
> ...



... He said he was planning to go on a walk with Sakura, "almost like a date", and showed disappointment at Sai tagging along.

What exactly would you want him to do to "prove" his love for Sakura? Have entire chapters dedicated to him inviting Sakura to a nice restaurant, buying her a ring and roses, and confessing his love on the way back to her home?

I thought "this isn't a shojo!" was one of NaruHina fans favored argument for some reason. What happend to that?

In Naruto's case, you've got him pondering reasons why he "likes (Sakura) so much". You've got him openly wishing for her to like him back. You've got him looking hurt twice at Sakura ignoring him in favor of Sasuke. You've got him making multiple mentions of dates with her. You've got him saying he understands Sakura's pain after she was rejected by Sasuke, implying his feelings for Sakura are the same as Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. But somehow this isn't good enough. 

Date requests are comic relief and only show he isn't serious. Blushing and looking at Sakura with a fond smile and a soft facial expression when she shows her skills and strength means nothing. 

When he fights against Gaara to save her, it's actually only out of friendship, let's ignore Gamakichi calling Sakura Naruto's girlfriend, what does he know he's just a frog (?) and Sasuke somehow gets all the credit for telling him to save her, because words are so much more important than actions. 

When he swears off Kyuubi because he hurt her, it's also out of friendship and he'd do that for everyone. 

He doesn't show excitement at the prospect of Sakura feeding him, which isn't a romantic gesture in Japanese culture, and isn't disappointed when Sai, then Kakashi feed him instead.

It's easy to claim there's no moments showing Naruto loves Sakura romantically when you ignore all the moments that do under the pretext they somehow aren't good enough for the unwritten law of shonen romance (that constantly changes to fit with what's more convenient for NaruHina at the moment).


----------



## Forlong (Apr 26, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Naruto's bond with Sasuke is stronger than Naruto's with Sakura, in that Naruto is not "chasing" the girl he "loves" in order to concentrate on Sasuke.


We could put it this way:  You know how Sasuke asked why Naruto was wasting his time, when he should have been working towards becoming Hokage?  And Naruto said, "Someone who can't save a friend doesn't deserve to be Hokage."  Awesome.  What if Naruto feels that he's not worthy of Sakura's love, if he can't keep his promise to her?  Just a thought.



XXXTurkey said:


> There *has* been time for Naruto to go "chasing" Sakura.  When he damaged his arm after the Kazuku fight, he couldn't train.  Did we see any effort or planning on his part that would prove his "love" to Sakura?  I didn't see any...



*Spoiler*: _Chapter 343 spoiler_ 



Here's what they do right after Naruto get's out of the hospital.  Go out together.  Now look at their faces as Sakura is about to feed Naruto.  Sakura has an almost seductive smile on her face, and Naruto is blushing.  Curse Sai for ruining that moment. 






XXXTurkey said:


> And in terms of openly romantic moments, NaruHina has had one.  In which Hinata states and then proves her love for Naruto by defending him and attacking Pain.


And I just posted one for NaruSaku.  And that's two really, if you count the flashback.



XXXTurkey said:


> It's one sided at the moment, but like i said, there is nothing stopping Naruto from seriously considering Hinata as a love interest.  We'll have to wait and see.


I agree 100% with that.



XXXTurkey said:


> I believe we will see what NaruSaku has not had.  *Follow up*.


NaruHina not having follow up for over 300 chapters didn't quiet all the NaruHina fans.



XXXTurkey said:


> I said above that Naruto has had time.  Plus, what about the entire time-skip.  If he's "loved" Sakura for as long as people claim then i think *three years* to plan *one date request* should be sufficent time.


Planning and _doing_ are two different things.  When I want to ask a girl out, I prefer to ask her first and agree on what to do.  But that's just me.



XXXTurkey said:


> And why does Naruto need romantic advice from anyone?  Again, if he does love her then shouldn't he be able to express it himself?


Yes, the guy who was never loved as a child shouldn't have trouble expressing that emotion. :rofl



XXXTurkey said:


> I was arguing Naruto does not love Sakura.  But since you mention it, where is the follow up in this case?  These "romantic" moments are hazy, open to interpretation and have not been followed up.


They need to be followed up.  The series is _ongoing_, so this still needs to be settled.  NaruHina fans have been arguing forever that Kishimoto-sensei wouldn't give NaruHina all that "screen time" without a follow up.  Well, NaruSaku has five times the "screen time", so there will _deffinately_ be a follow up.


----------



## Hikui (Apr 27, 2009)

I know I was supposed to answer Tyrannos a couple of pages ago, but I'm lazy. Sorry, Tyrannos . We can deal with that later.



Saunion said:


> What exactly would you want him to do to "prove" his love for Sakura? Have entire chapters dedicated to him inviting Sakura to a nice restaurant, buying her a ring and roses, and confessing his love on the way back to her home?



Lolz. Perhaps a simple: "I really love Sakura," in his head would be nice. Chapter 3 doesn't count, he was twelve, just because he realized the 'reason' why he liked her doesn't mean it is omgtrulub. 



Saunion said:


> I thought "this isn't a shojo!" was one of NaruHina fans favored argument for some reason. What happend to that?



And that's why Kishimoto won't lose panel time making Sakura 'realize' her feelings for Naruto. Or Angsty!Naruto because he doesn't know who to chose...or a much more complicated romantic scenarios. 



Saunion said:


> In Naruto's case, you've got him pondering reasons why he "likes (Sakura) so much". You've got him openly wishing for her to like him back. You've got him looking hurt twice at Sakura ignoring him in favor of Sasuke. You've got him making multiple mentions of dates with her. You've got him saying he understands Sakura's pain after she was rejected by Sasuke, implying his feelings for Sakura are the same as Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. But somehow this isn't good enough.



Maybe. (Thing is, not everyone interprets it that way . )



Saunion said:


> Date requests are comic relief and only show he isn't serious. Blushing and looking at Sakura with a fond smile and a soft facial expression when she shows her skills and strength means nothing.



It's Kishimoto who isn't serious. 



Saunion said:


> When he fights against Gaara to save her, it's actually only out of friendship, let's ignore Gamakichi calling Sakura Naruto's girlfriend, what does he know he's just a frog (?) and Sasuke somehow gets all the credit for telling him to save her, because words are so much more important than actions.



It could have been anyone (just like Hinata ) and he would have save him/her either way whatever his reasons were (I seen this argument used *so* many times-to Hinata saving Naruto, lolz.). And yeah, it means nothing whatever Gamakichi said. And Sasuke doesn't get all the credit, it just shows that he actually cares about the girl even if it isn't romantic. 



Saunion said:


> When he swears off Kyuubi because he hurt her, it's also out of friendship and he'd do that for everyone.



Yes, he would.



Saunion said:


> He doesn't show excitement at the prospect of Sakura feeding him, which isn't a romantic gesture in Japanese culture, and isn't disappointed when Sai, then Kakashi feed him instead.



He still likes her, doesn't mean it's trulub. 



Saunion said:


> It's easy to claim there's no moments showing Naruto loves Sakura romantically when you ignore all the moments that do under the pretext they somehow aren't good enough for the unwritten law of shonen romance (that constantly changes to fit with what's more convenient for NaruHina at the moment).



There are, they're just ambiguous. What a shame. :amazed



Forlong said:


> They need to be followed up.  The series is _ongoing_, so this still needs to be settled.  NaruHina fans have been arguing forever that Kishimoto-sensei wouldn't give NaruHina all that "screen time" without a follow up.  Well, NaruSaku has five times the "screen time", so there will _deffinately_ be a follow up.



Thing with NaruSaku is that "screen time" was needed for them to team up to "Save Sasuke". Oh, and I almost forget, that "follow up" made them close friends...it isn't romantic (yet) so there is no need to be a *mutual* romantic closure....(maybe from Naruto's part but that's just me being picky). 

No offense intended to anyone, I'm just having fun using logic. 
Cheers!


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## Saunion (Apr 27, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Lolz. Perhaps a simple: "I really love Sakura," in his head would be nice. Chapter 3 doesn't count, he was twelve, just because he realized the 'reason' why he liked her doesn't mean it is omgtrulub.



Aaah, sure, he was twelve so it doesn't count. I guess Sakura's confession doesn't count either then? Why, she was twelve!




> And that's why Kishimoto won't lose panel time making Sakura 'realize' her feelings for Naruto. Or Angsty!Naruto because he doesn't know who to chose...or a much more complicated romantic scenarios.



But he's going to have Naruto immediately fall in love with a girl he never showed any interest for, just because she confessed, while he wasted dozens of scenes showing Naruto being interested in another girl.

Which is a typical shonen plot device, shown in countless manga such as... Uh... I'll find examples just give me a minute!

And even in Naruto, Kishimoto obviously doesn't go for "more complicated romantic scenarios". Look how Sakura fell in love with Lee after he risked his life for her and how Sasuke did the same after Sakura's confession!  Kishimoto sure likes his romance to be clear cut, not the least bit ambiguous, quickly resolved and not drawn out!

Oh wait, I forgot the only one who could get his feelings completely ignored was the main character. Silly me!



> Maybe. (Thing is, not everyone interprets it that way . )



No. Not "maybe". It's pretty clearly a flawed interpretation to think these scenes only imply friendship on Naruto's part. Good for you if you think it is, but I'm pretty much sure you're wrong.



> It's Kishimoto who isn't serious.



Uh hu. Interesting.



> It could have been anyone (just like Hinata ) and he would have save him/her either way whatever his reasons were (I seen this argument used *so* many times-to Hinata saving Naruto, lolz.). And yeah, it means nothing whatever Gamakichi said. And Sasuke doesn't get all the credit, it just shows that he actually cares about the girl even if it isn't romantic.



Are you going to give actual arguments instead of IT DOESNT COUNT!!! rebuttals? For the moment you're only making empty claims. 



> Yes, he would.



See above.



> He still likes her, doesn't mean it's trulub.



So what, does he like her romantically or as a friend? 



> There are, they're just ambiguous. What a shame. :amazed



No, you aren't asking friends on a date. You don't wish for friends to "like" you, especially after these friends already showed they considered you as a friend. You don't blush at friends feeding you, and then get pissed off because other friends do it instead. You don't look hurt when friends romantically ignore you in favor of another person. There's nothing "ambiguous" here. Only people turning a blind eye because it conflicts with their pairing of choice.


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## hmph (Apr 27, 2009)

Hikui said:


> He still likes her, doesn't mean it's trulub.



To butt in, claims like this are common attempts to downplay the significance of an event because it fails to show everything in one package. We're looking for depth of feelings and form of feelings, and just because an event doesn't show both doesn't mean it doesn't show one. And if both are shown at different points, well then they're both there, obviously.

Depth for NaruSaku from Naruto's side can easily be seen as Sakura is time and time again on his list of important people. Form is also all over the place, starting with request for dates.


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## santanico (Apr 27, 2009)

Amai106 said:


> how can u say sakura and sasuke bonded well together,when he rejected her everytime she asked him to go out on a date??other than sasuke being on the team they didnt talk or have a friendly conversation, sakura didnt give sasuke that warm cute smile that she gives naruto whenever he makes her happy or makes her feel like shes special.
> 
> l*et me ask u this,did sasuke ever put the effort into making sakura happy or even tell her that shes beautiful??did sasuke try so hard to impress sakura that he faild but still made her feel special and happy??*





Sasuke is Sasuke, he does not have Naruto's personality and would not react the same way as Naruto would.



> can u explain these "true" reasons why hinata likes naruto and not sakura??



Simple, the manga. I can't really say anything else about the topic at hand because it's been discussed over and over again.

look back  10 or more pages



SasuNaru Monomaniac said:


> NaruSaku!!!!



Posts like these are considered spam, look at the first page if your confused.


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## Kage (Apr 27, 2009)

Starr said:


> Sasuke is Sasuke, he does not have Naruto's personality and would not react the same way as Naruto would.



that's right. sasuke is sasuke and sasuke was/is very uninterested in trying in the first place.



SasuNaru Monomaniac said:


> NaruSaku!!!!




aww this simple response sorta makes light of all the blood-shed debating going on in here.

SNM  
but it is spam hon. unless you want to tell us _why_ you think NaruSaku is love


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## mystic868 (Apr 27, 2009)

Saunion said:


> No, you aren't asking friends on a date. You don't wish for friends to "like" you, especially after these friends already showed they considered you as a friend. You don't blush at friends feeding you, and then get pissed off because other friends do it instead. You don't look hurt when friends romantically ignore you in favor of another person. There's nothing "ambiguous" here. Only people turning a blind eye because it conflicts with their pairing of choice.



That's true, blushing, dating is not dedicated for friends.
About Sasuke I think that he doesn't love/like Sakura anymore, because his wish was to kill his brother. After that his revenge supposed to end. Despite of that he killed Itachi, now he is going to destroy Konoha so in my opinion nothing is connecting him to the village anymore.
And also it's true that NaruSaku relations weren't clearly shown at manga. But don't you think that Kishimoto made that to make us dizzy? To make us thinking and debating who will ends up with who? And to make NaruSaku feelings developing slowly? It was probably done to make their mutual relations not obvious and hard to read by fans.


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## SasuNaru Monomaniac (Apr 27, 2009)

Starr said:


> Posts like these are considered spam, look at the first page if your confused.





kageneko said:


> SNM
> but it is spam hon. unless you want to tell us _why_ you think NaruSaku is love



I don't want bringing back what people said 

I just choice NaruSaku

because I can feel love


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## Black Flicka (Apr 27, 2009)

I'm baaaaaaack!
MWAHAHAHA! 
now let's start with bombarding
I see u guys are on fire these days
First for narusaku fans i need to share something with u!
i found THE BEST song that rlly cheers me up and let's me think that nothing can beat narusaku
the song is from Mandy Moore - Cry
i watched it on this link with narusaku but u can probably find it on utube User Notifications
now the debate 
i left the question about anime animators pushing narusaku opened so i'll tell something about that

I don't think the anime animators are telling masashi "it should be narusaku". ^_^ we have had a lot of development in the naruto/sakura relationship ever since the hospital rooftop fight, and I think the animators are trying to make the hints clearer. she has had so many realisations in such a short time - she realises naruto is not a fool, he understands her, and he would never go back on his word, that he would do anything for her. with Sasuke, she has realised he has no room in his heart for her, that he only wants revenge and power.

I think the animators are trying to make the changing feelings clearer in the anime, since it is easy to miss some of the hints in the manga.

I think masashi is going for narusaku because of how everything is building up. ^_^ naruhina and sasusaku have not really changed - they are both still one-sided, but narusaku is starting to show feelings from sakura to naruto as well. they have not blossomed into love yet, but she holds deep feelings for him. ^_^

this is the love-triangle manga, which is "hero loves girl, but girl loves cool guy who doesn't love her". now the girl has seen there are problems with the "cool guy" and she is confiding in the hero. she is now seeing that the hero is more than she thought. ^_^

I think some people accepted naruhina and sasusaku too quickly - they only looked at who the girls like and how "cute" they looked together, rather than how the relationships work. it is so easy to accept the obvious and miss the smaller hints. masashi is fond of "seeing underneath the underneath". 

naruto and sakura compliment each other perfectly, they are both brave people who will protect the ones they love with their lives. they also have different strengths and weaknesses that fit together beautifully like two halves - heaven and earth. ^_^ they work so well together and understand each other so well it would be such a shame if they did not become a couple! for naruhina and sasusaku to happen would require a very large twist in the plot not just conffesion (like u see with sasusaku) ^_^

and I really really wanted to clear up some things before naruto left
most of ppl say that sakura wanted only naruto to bring her sasuke back and when he bring tsunade like she didn't care -.-
i dont think its true
but i need proof 

when sakura sees naruto after he comes back with tsunade, her sad expression had changed to a bit of a happier one!

naruto looks sad and surprised when sakura cries and hugs sasuke. his expression changes to a smile. (i think he wants sakura to be happy and he is happy that sasuke is back to normal, most logical explanation).

sasuke acts strange to sakura after asking naruto to fight him, sakura looks towards naruto hoping that he can be the one that will stop this silliness. (she relied on naruto to stop this, instead of keep asking sasuke to stop acting foolish.)

when kakashi asked if sasuke was just trying to kill naruto at that moment, sakura?s face becomes real surprised with worry.

after naruto tells sakura to not stop him and sasuke, she looks sad, naruto?s expression changes to worried a sad worried one. he looks a bit hurt that sakura is sad.

sakura asked naruto on a date, even though it was for different intentions, sakura has her first date with naruto.

after naruto tells sakura about orochimaru, sakura looks sad and then he cheers sakura up. she does become cheered up because in the last picture, even though it is hard to tell if she is sad or happy, you can see blush, and that blush couldn?t mean she is sad. (naruto makes sakura happy when she is feeling sad)

naruto thinks of what he told sakura about sasuke not doing stupid things, (which sasuke did anyways.) if you see in the flash back, sakura becomes happy when naruto tells her this. (he is the only one that has ever made her truly smile in the manga.)

sakura finally acknowledges naruto, and believes he can bring sasuke back. all her faith is in naruto now. naruto is filled with many emotions, including, being shocked, angry, sad, and hurt. he stops to think for a moment and smiles; he asks sakura that she really does like sasuke with a smile. naruto finally understands how much she may care for him, even though it hurts him. (he really cares for her, that he is willing to make the sacrifice of his heart for her.)

naruto tells sakura he understands that pain, he is hurt also, and he is now experiencing the pain of not gaining the love he wants from sakura. he knows that pain. (he doesn?t want her to feel that pain even if it does mean brining back sasuke for her. at least that's what i think. this is how much naruto loves and cares for sakura.)

sakura remembers the moment where she talked to sasuke/naruto (she thought it was sasuke.) sasuke/naruto asked her what she thought of naruto, and she replied that she thinks he enjoys watching her being troubled, that he doesn?t understand her.(she realizes at this moment, how wrong she was, that naruto understands her more then anyone. sasuke doesn?t understand her like that.)

sakura then thinks about how naruto always knew how she felt, how he always helped her.

after sasuke breaks out of his container, naruto yells at him to come back with them happily, and then he starts seeing something is wrong, he realized sasuke may have gone crazy. naruto thinks of sakura and his anger rises because he remembered how sad she was because of sasuke.

lee reminds naruto that he made a promise, and naruto, a promise naruto will do his best to for fill for sakura.

naruto thinks about when sakura was crying and telling him that he could only bring sasuke back. His anger begins to grow more and more because of this. (I think her crying made him really angry because he wants her happy. I think he also may felt sad. so he din't went kyuubi only because of hinata -.-)

as he fights sasuke, naruto is hit once more and falling towards the water. he thinks about sakura and how he told her that everything will be all right. (he is going all out for her and for his friend. this battle meant more then friendship and more then a crush. naruto fought for the person he loves, and for a brother that is not blood. in naruto?s case that is the closest he will ever have to a family and the best family in the world. but as for now, he only thought of sakura and what he told her.)
remembering this helped naruto pull out some strength that he needed to fight sasuke.

naruto is in the hospital bed and he is thinking about sakura when she was crying and how he made his promise of a lifetimes. he looks sad and hurt. (i believe he really wanted to make sakura happy even if it wasn?t with him. you can see every time, how much naruto cares for her and would do anything to make her happy.)

when sakura reaches the hospital she tells ino that she will go see naruto and then she pauses for a bit, then says sasuke?s name.

when sakura see?s naruto all bandaged up she looks sad. naruto seems to remember his promise to her again and he looks even sadder that he couldn?t complete the promise he made. naruto sadly apologizes to sakura. sakura finally does something different and tries to make naruto cheered up. she doesn?t feel that naruto needs to apologize. naruto wont let her do that, all he can think about is the promise he made to her and how he will not break it because he made a lifelong promise. sakura tells naruto it is all right, but naruto won?t let her, he puts a smile on his face and tells her he will keep his promise because that is his ninja way. (I think it is one of his false smiles that he puts on when he feels different.)

sakura looks sad. (I don?t think she wants to see naruto hurt anymore). tsunade and shikamaru make a face, I think they are beginning to understand how much naruto loves sakura. sakura looks sad as she remembers the life long wish she made to naruto. she remembers everything.
she then see?s naruto laugh, her sadness changes into a beautiful smile. she says naruto?s name. she trusts naruto completely.

sakura apologizes to naruto, and i quote, she says,
??I?m sorry Naruto??
?I had to make you wait a while but??
?Next time we?ll do it together!?
(this could mean her feelings have finally opened to a new light and that light that always hit her but bothered her eyes now shines bright, a beautiful bright light that leads towards naruto.)

tsunade had talked about the most important thing in a medical nin with shikamaru but never said what it was. when sakura asks to become tsunade?s apprentice, tsunade thinks about in her head,
?That one most important thing?? and she thinks of her brother and dan. (maybe that one important person for sakura is naruto, since he is the one that inspires her to try harder.)

now thisiis only my opinion 
enjoy


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## Hikui (Apr 27, 2009)

I guess using sarcasm is not a good idea. Hmm...Shall I try getting serious?



Saunion said:


> Aaah, sure, he was twelve so it doesn't count. I guess Sakura's confession doesn't count either then? Why, she was twelve!



I thought that was a anti-SasuSaku argument (the whole she's young and selfish thing I mean). I don't know whether to count it or not, there's a big difference between feelings on Chapter 3 (before being ninja) and Chapter (what was it?) 181 (?) (after being ninja). All of the matured greatly (even Sakura, yes). 



Saunion said:


> But he's going to have Naruto immediately fall in love with a girl he never showed any interest for, just because she confessed, while he wasted dozens of scenes showing Naruto being interested in another girl.
> 
> Which is a typical shonen plot device, shown in countless manga such as... Uh... I'll find examples just give me a minute!



Lolz, he's not going to immediately fall in love with her. For the way this is going, I can't see any of the romantic relationship being cannon until after-the timeskip (if there is one, which I think there'll be). And, that doesn't mean he can't go out with her on a date...

It's actually pretty common in Japan, for people to confess without knowing much of each other and go out. Sometimes if the situation is too rocky the say something like: We could start like friends if you want! 

It's not as farfetched as most make it out to be. We don't even need to see the dates. *shrug*



Saunion said:


> And even in Naruto, Kishimoto obviously doesn't go for "more complicated romantic scenarios". Look how Sakura fell in love with Lee after he risked his life for her and how Sasuke did the same after Sakura's confession!  Kishimoto sure likes his romance to be clear cut, not the least bit ambiguous, quickly resolved and not drawn out!



And that's why I don't see Sakura liking Naruto. Her feelings should be "clear cut, not the least bit ambiguous, quickly resolved and not drawn out!". 




Saunion said:


> Oh wait, I forgot the only one who could get his feelings completely ignored was the main character. Silly me!



We're all silly. And just remember, I'm debating whether NaruSaku has a romantic bond (or potential). As of now, all are one-sided.




Saunion said:


> No. Not "maybe". It's pretty clearly a flawed interpretation to think these scenes only imply friendship on Naruto's part. Good for you if you think it is, but I'm pretty much sure you're wrong.



I also think lots of people are wrong. Naruto's feelings of friendship by far surpass his feelings of 'liking' Sakura. 

Naruto said: "A girl I'm kinda interested in" back in Chapter 3. (Definitely not a: A girl I want to marry or the like). 



Saunion said:


> Are you going to give actual arguments instead of IT DOESNT COUNT!!! rebuttals? For the moment you're only making empty claims.



I was using the same rebuttal someone used on Hinata a while ago. 



Saunion said:


> So what, does he like her romantically or as a friend?


They don't need to fight with the other, is not whether is romantic or friendship. I he only felt 'romantic love' for Sakura then her importance would probably degrade, this is Naruto. Friendship plays a lot more of a role in the manga,and it happens to have a lot more panel time. 




Saunion said:


> No, you aren't asking friends on a date. You don't wish for friends to "like" you, especially after these friends already showed they considered you as a friend. You don't blush at friends feeding you, and then get pissed off because other friends do it instead. You don't look hurt when friends romantically ignore you in favor of another person. There's nothing "ambiguous" here. Only people turning a blind eye because it conflicts with their pairing of choice.



I have thought of some friends as potential 'romantic material' and would've gone out with them if the situation aroused, however I can definitely say I did not feel strong romantic feelings for them. My friendship with them is by far more important. 



hmph said:


> To butt in, claims like this are common attempts to downplay the significance of an event because it fails to show everything in one package. We're looking for depth of feelings and form of feelings, and just because an event doesn't show both doesn't mean it doesn't show one. And if both are shown at different points, well then they're both there, obviously.



I repeat, I was using the same logic applied to Hinata saving Naruto by someone on this thread. So just like you said, the claim that person did was: in order to "downplay the significance of an event (Hinata saving Naruto) because it fails to show everything in one package". 



hmph said:


> Depth for NaruSaku from Naruto's side can easily be seen as Sakura is time and time again on his list of important people. Form is also all over the place, starting with request for dates.


I agree on this.


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## mystic868 (Apr 27, 2009)

Black Flicka said:


> I'm baaaaaaack!
> First for narusaku fans i need to share something with u!
> i found THE BEST song that rlly cheers me up and let's me think that nothing can beat narusaku
> the song is from Mandy Moore - Cry
> i watched it on this link with narusaku but u can probably find it on utube this



Thanks it's really great song 
I will try to look for another at least one which can compare to your's 



Hikui said:


> Naruto said: "A girl I'm kinda interested in" back in Chapter 3. (Definitely not a: A girl I want to marry or the like).


interesting can also mean sth more than friendship
"Sakura you're amazing, exactly as the woman of my dreams" - friendship? I don't think so


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## Miss Happy (Apr 27, 2009)

PinkLover said:


> I am pretty sure naruto will end up with sakura....after all he is a main character and he always liked sakura....plus *sakura got over sasuke *( i think ) and now in shippuden *sakura likes naruto*,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> *Hinata* is a nice girl and i think she *will understand that naruto likes sakur*a.....and by the way *kiba likes hinata *and kibahina will make such a *cute* *couple*.
> so i'll say *NaruSaku and KibaHina*



yeah right...
please let me continue
*the sky is pink and the pigs are flying*... *sasuhina is canon*... *and i don't like sasuke*... *the word"cute"is non-existent in my vocabulary*...

hope you liked it​​


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## izzyisozaki (Apr 27, 2009)

Naruto may not be head over heels [he's a guy with just as many priorities as Sasuke] in love when it comes to Sakura, but there is no doubt he has romantic interest in her.
You don't want to be 'liked' by a specific girl for the sunshine and rainbows of friendship unless there is something twisted behind such interest . Sasuke's absence is a clear deadweight on Naruto's pursuit of Sakura, cos they both love that guy [in arguable ways] and need to overcome that before anything. Romance also isn't explicit focus in shounen and one can assume Kishi does it on purpose. So lack of 'deep' love declarations doesn't necessarily mean he's not serious about her when his feelings, whatever the type, and very strong when it comes down to the essential. You don't fawn over someone and go promising the world for them when you don't give two shits about them romantically. Naruto has put trifold effort to make this bitch girl happy and people STILL don't take it seriously cos he's not moping over some unrequitted love. The males are NOT going to be warped by their supposed romantic interest in this series, at least that has been made clear. It's enough the fact he was surprised and excited about being fed ramen to suggest the lingering romantic feelings are still there like in Part 1 despite their comedic nature. This 'thing' is enough for me to feel he would reject Hinata. Naruto doesn't try for nothing.


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## Farih (Apr 27, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Lolz. Perhaps a simple: "I really love Sakura," in his head would be nice. Chapter 3 doesn't count, he was twelve, just because he realized the 'reason' why he liked her doesn't mean it is omgtrulub.



Actually you'd be surprised at how many NaruHina fans use, "Hinata and Naruto have the same nindo/Hinata has a deep reason to love Naruto," as reasoning for the couple.  It's a valid claim, or just as valid as it is to say that because both Naruto and Sakura seek acknowledgment, NaruSaku will happen.  



> And that's why Kishimoto won't lose panel time making Sakura 'realize' her feelings for Naruto. Or Angsty!Naruto because he doesn't know who to chose...or a much more complicated romantic scenarios.



OR Kishimoto will have Naruto turn Hinata down.  Therefore, there would be no paneltime wasted on Naruto brooding in angst.


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## Afalstein (Apr 27, 2009)

I should probably look for quotes to cite specific examples, but all these things go on for so long and I don't have the energy or time to look them all up, so I'll just address some general concerns I saw some people bring up.

The Hinata confession keeps getting compared to the Sakura confession and the Lee confession.  Problem being that Hinata a) is not as forward as either; and b)Naruto is not nearly as obnoxious as either Sakura or Sasuke were at the time.  The presentation of Hinata's confession here is overwhelmingly positive and very poignant.  In fact, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it would have been a perfect death scene, if Kishi had decided to go with that.  And it clearly has a great effect on Naruto, you can see in his eyes.  He's not just going to discount her as Sakura did Lee.

Now granted, Sakura's confession to Sasuke was equally poignant, and that didn't go anywhere.  But it arguably did have an affect on Sasuke.  And more to the point, Naruto isn't half the arrogant idiot that Sasuke was.  

Also, to people who keep bringing up that Sakura's relationship with Sasuke was a silly obsession that she's long over, the whole point of her confession was that she'd moved past that silly obsession and gone into something deeper.

Another claim that keeps being brought up is that Sakura is a major character, while Hinata is not.  But actually it's not uncommon for secondary characters to marry the hero.  Harry Potter, for instance, marries Ginny, a secondary character, instead of Hermoine, a major one.  Aragon marries Arwen, who only appears twice in the book, as opposed to Eowyn, a much more developed character.  And, of course, Luke Skywalker married Mara Jade, despite Princess Leia being a much more major character (Of course, there were other reasons for that).  Point being, just because two characters spend a lot of time together doesn't mean they'll get married.  

It's not uncommon for writers to change their minds.  I think for a number of these the writers may have started with the two major characters marrying, but decided as the characters developed that it wasn't working.  Hence, they bring up a secondary character.

I'm not going to go through all the different examples, but I have noticed most of the NaruSaku examples are fairly early in the series.  Like the ramen scene, or the Yamato speech, both within the first 100 episodes of a 300-part series (speaking of Part II).  Since then, such moments have been much less defined and less frequent.  Kishi, like others, may be changing his mind (if he started meaning for NaruSaku to happen).


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## Emily (Apr 27, 2009)

kageneko said:


> that's right. sasuke is sasuke and sasuke was/is very uninterested in trying in the first place.




*Spoiler*: __ 



But didn't you see the panels where he was training with Sakura and bonding with her? 






Hikui said:


> I don't know whether to count it or not, there's a big difference between feelings on Chapter 3 (before being ninja) and Chapter (what was it?) 181 (?) (after being ninja). All of the matured greatly (*even Sakura*, yes).



I don't think Sakura had matured much as a ninja before chapter 181. Most of her improvement happened only after Sasuke had left. 

I find it extremely funny how Naruto risking his life for Sakura several times and caring for her feelings to an extent where his _own_ romantic feelings don't matter doesn't count according to many of you guys, but when Sakura confesses her love in a rather selfish way it's true lubz and Sasuke should fall straight into her healing arms although there's no chemistry and they hardly ever talked. 

I still don't care for NaruSaku as a pairing much, but to be honest here I'd rather see something that's been mutually developing for years than a girl confess and BAM! we have a canon couple.


----------



## Hikui (Apr 27, 2009)

farihstar said:


> Actually you'd be surprised at how many NaruHina fans use, "Hinata and Naruto have the same nindo/Hinata has a deep reason to love Naruto," as reasoning for the couple.  It's a valid claim, or just as valid as it is to say that because both Naruto and Sakura seek acknowledgment, NaruSaku will happen.



Yeah, I'm surprised. And yeah I do think Hinata has valid reasons to love him, just as Naruto probably has valid reasons to love her, I just think his feelings for her stronger on the friendship department and given the time, he could get over his crush on Sakura (or not). 




farihstar said:


> OR Kishimoto will have Naruto turn Hinata down.  Therefore, there would be no paneltime wasted on Naruto brooding in angst.


Agreed, I just don't consider it likely, but that is just my opinion. 

@Afalstein: I agree with your post. I think Kishimoto is testing the waters (pairing-wise), as of now. Hence, anything can happen, I just hope that in the end it'll be believable.



Caran said:


> I don't think Sakura had matured much as a ninja before chapter 181. Most of her improvement happened only after Sasuke had left.
> 
> I find it extremely funny how Naruto risking his life for Sakura several times and caring for her feelings to an extent where his _own_ romantic feelings don't matter doesn't count according to many of you guys, but when Sakura confesses her love in a rather selfish way it's true lubz and Sasuke should fall straight into her healing arms although there's no chemistry and they hardly ever talked.
> 
> I still don't care for NaruSaku as a pairing much, but to be honest here I'd rather see something that's been mutually developing for years than a girl confess and BAM! we have a canon couple.



Well, I agree Sakura had not completely matured, but she was a different person than the 'fangirl' back in Chapter 3. Hence, whether her confession was selfish or not (all confessions are selfish in first place), I think it should be considered valid. 

And I do think Naruto's feelings count, but I just don't think his 'romantic feelings' for Sakura (now) are that serious (as in he actively wants to pursue her), he thinks Sakura still loves Sasuke (that might be true), hence he doesn't try too hard. 

In the end, it's a matter of opinion and interpretation, I guess. Some people believe Sakura is falling in love with Naruto, others do not. Some people believe Naruto feels 'strong romantic love' for Sakura some do not. I think it should be respectable, although it is debatable. 

Okay, that was way more diplomatic than expected. (I'm not always like this, weird).


----------



## M4verick (Apr 27, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Yeah, I'm surprised. And yeah I do think Hinata has valid reasons to love him, just as Naruto probably has valid reasons to love her, *I just think his feelings for her stronger on the friendship department and given the time, he could get over his crush on Sakura (or not)*.



I'm sorry, but I really don't see the logic.  Almost every time team 7 has down time, he's asking or plotting to go on a date with Sakura.  The main things we see in Naruto's mind is;

1. Ramen
2. Bringing back Sasuke(Naruto Ship. Movie #2 was actually pretty good)
3. Hokage
4. Training 
5. Dating Sakura

As Naruto gets older, and his hormones start to rage, that order will change.

Also, for the NaruHina fans that say Naruto only "likes" Sakura from chapter 3.  *442* chapters later, there relationship has grown tremendously.  

1. The Promise of a lifetime showed how much Naruto loves Sakura sacrificing his own feelings to make her happy.

2. With Sakura, Yamato was only with the two of them for a short time, and already saw how Sakura loves Naruto as he was about to say...


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## mystic868 (Apr 27, 2009)

M4verick said:


> I'm sorry, but I really don't see the logic.  Almost every time team 7 has down time, he's asking or plotting to go on a date with Sakura.  The main things we see in Naruto's mind is;
> 
> 1. Ramen
> 2. Bringing back Sasuke(Naruto Ship. Movie #2 was actually pretty good)
> ...


I think that this ranking will turn around to 5, 2, 3, 4, 1


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## Emily (Apr 27, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Well, I agree Sakura had not completely matured, but she was a different person than the 'fangirl' back in Chapter 3. Hence, whether her confession was selfish or not (all confessions are selfish in first place), I think it should be considered valid.
> 
> And I do think Naruto's feelings count, but I just don't think his 'romantic feelings' for Sakura (now) are that serious (as in he actively wants to pursue her), he thinks Sakura still loves Sasuke (that might be true), hence he doesn't try too hard.
> 
> ...



Well, the thing is that I really dislike SasuSaku...

...however I don't really care who Sakura loves or does she love anyone at all - in my opinion she's much more interesting when she's not drooling after some guy. 

I agree she had matured, but more like that she ignored Naruto less and focused more on teamwork. She still acted pretty immature around Sasuke. Just because _she_ matured, doesn't mean she automatically took her crush onto a new level and was suddenly all mature about him. She hardly even _knew_ him that well.


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## santanico (Apr 27, 2009)

kageneko said:


> that's right. sasuke is sasuke and sasuke was/is very uninterested in trying in the first place.



I get really annoyed when people expect Sasuke to act like some fanboy when Sakura confessed, because we all know _how_ Sasuke is personality wise.
Sasuke had many chances to come in and sweep Sakura off her feet... but that is yet to actually happen..
I could care less about sasusaku, but I don't hate it either


----------



## Louchan (Apr 27, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> I think that this ranking will turn around to 5, 2, 3, 4, 1


Sorry, but if you at any point think that dating Sakura will be more important for Naruto than saving Sasuke, then you're an idiot.
And this is coming from a huge NaruSaku fan.
Saving Sasuke is and will always be Naruto's number one priority.
The same goes for Sakura.
I don't think NaruSaku can truly happen until the Sasuke situation has been solved out and everyone has their happy ending.


----------



## Kage (Apr 27, 2009)

Caran said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> But didn't you see the panels where he was training with Sakura and bonding with her?




*Spoiler*: __ 



how could i forget when it was the entirety of part I amirite? 








Starr said:


> I get really annoyed when people expect Sasuke to act like some fanboy when Sakura confessed, because we all know _how_ Sasuke is personality wise.
> Sasuke had many chances to come in and sweep Sakura off her feet... but that is yet to actually happen..
> I could care less about sasusaku, but I don't hate it either


expecting him to show some interest doesn't mean expecting him to act like a fanboy. this _is_ sasuke we are talking about after all. i hate that being just sasuke is an excuse as to why he can't be nicer or interested in anything romantic thereof his lack of interest in someone romantically is justifiable. he wasn't interested in making bonds but he made them anyway _despite_ his personality. what does that tell you?

i hate sasusaku. it's disgusting


----------



## Forlong (Apr 27, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Lolz. Perhaps a simple: "I really love Sakura," in his head would be nice. Chapter 3 doesn't count, he was twelve, just because he realized the 'reason' why he liked her doesn't mean it is omgtrulub.


What about this?  I'd like to know the actually Japanese phrase, because I've seen two different translations.  In this one Narto says, "That's the girl I put my confidence in."  I remember another that goes: "That's the girl I have high hopes for."
Sound anything like how Hinata refers to Naruto? 



Hikui said:


> And that's why Kishimoto won't lose panel time making Sakura 'realize' her feelings for Naruto. Or Angsty!Naruto because he doesn't know who to chose...or a much more complicated romantic scenarios.


Sakura is a main character, and more popular than Hinata (according to the offical polls).  So her developement can hardly be called a waste of panel space.



Hikui said:


> He still likes her, doesn't mean it's trulub.


It's still a _romantic_ gesture.  And I pointed out that he blushed.  Did he do that because a friend was going to do something nice for him?  That doesn't make sense.



Hikui said:


> It's actually pretty common in Japan, for people to confess without knowing much of each other and go out. Sometimes if the situation is too rocky the say something like: We could start like friends if you want!


Yet there is no way that will happen to NaruHina? 



Hikui said:


> It's not as farfetched as most make it out to be. We don't even need to see the dates. *shrug*


Same arguement can be made for NaruSaku.  They could have gone on a few off-screne dates.  We see them hanging out together, so it's an easy assumption to make.



Hikui said:


> And that's why I don't see Sakura liking Naruto. Her feelings should be "clear cut, not the least bit ambiguous, quickly resolved and not drawn out!".


Yeah, and girl's feelings are _always_ clear cut. 



Hikui said:


> Naruto said: "A girl I'm kinda interested in" back in Chapter 3. (Definitely not a: A girl I want to marry or the like).


Not something most 13-year-olds think about.
ZARU! 



Hikui said:


> I have thought of some friends as potential 'romantic material' and would've gone out with them if the situation aroused, however I can definitely say I did not feel strong romantic feelings for them. My friendship with them is by far more important.


Did you regularly ask them out?



Afalstein said:


> He's not just going to discount her as Sakura did Lee.


Yeah, and once Sakura saw how genuine Lee's feelings where...what did she do?  Run into him arms?  Or agknowledge him?
Why are only Hinata's feelings important?



Afalstein said:


> And, of course, Luke Skywalker married Mara Jade, despite Princess Leia being a much more major character (Of course, there were other reasons for that).


Mara wasn't a minor character, but that's beside the point.



Afalstein said:


> It's not uncommon for writers to change their minds.  I think for a number of these the writers may have started with the two major characters marrying, but decided as the characters developed that it wasn't working.  Hence, they bring up a secondary character.


If Kishimoto-sensei has changed his mind, it's probably in _favor_ of Sakura.  She is the most popular female character in the series.  Also he said that we'd see Sakura doing something big sometime soon ("soon" being a relative term ).  I don't recall him _ever_ saying that Hinata would ever do anything important.  So why is he paying so much attention to Sakura, and so little to Hinata?
SON OF ZARU! 



Afalstein said:


> I'm not going to go through all the different examples, but I have noticed most of the NaruSaku examples are fairly early in the series.  Like the ramen scene, or the Yamato speech, both within the first 100 episodes of a 300-part series (speaking of Part II).  Since then, such moments have been much less defined and less frequent.  Kishi, like others, may be changing his mind (if he started meaning for NaruSaku to happen).



*Spoiler*: _Chapter 343 spoiler_ 



The ramen scene was in chapter 343.





*Spoiler*: _Chapters 405 & 409 spoilers_ 



There's Sakura calling out to Naruto here.  And her wishing Naruto luck.




Naruto and Sakura have _plenty_ of moments all across the series.


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 27, 2009)

Forlong said:


> *Spoiler*: _Chapter 343 spoiler_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ummm... Okay, I'll give you the first one, but calling out "Good luck" does NOT count as a romantic moment.  

And though I can see where you're coming from with the first one, I don't see it as significant as it seems to be made.  Sakura's action here is prompted by a memory of Naruto talking about how they're getting closer to SASUKE together.  A lot of times that seems to be the thing with these two, their relation is put largely in terms of their relation to Sasuke.


----------



## Mogami Kyoko (Apr 27, 2009)

Ah, I'm late replying again. Sorry. 



BruceLeefan said:


> Yes,Naruto is much more respected nowadays, which is awesome since he got what he wanted his whole life.But Naruto is still feeling the pain of being a Jinchuriki.His pain isn't fully eliminated yet.We can tell from the recent chapters, Naruto actually feels for Pein.He's relating his own pain to Pein's pain.Why would he care if he didn't?



True, Naruto still has the Pain of being a Jinchuuriki, but that's something that may never, if not, take a long time, to go away.
Naruto already has someone to lean on for that, anyways. He has Gaara. Even though Gaara is no longer a Jinchuuriki, he still knows the pain of being one.  
But I'm not sure what Pein's pain and Naruto's pain have to do with this debate.



> Naruto only started being acknowledged by other people, besides Iruka and Hinata of course, after he became a ninja.People saw him as a failure before that.



As forlong also said, before Naruto became a ninja, they didn't view him only as a "failure". The biggest reason the village looked down on him was because they all believed he was a monster because of the Kyuubi sealed inside of him. Something that Naruto and Naruto's generation didn't know about then.
Plus, allow me to point something out to you.
*We don't know when Hinata actually, truly began to acknowledge Naruto.*
Why? Because when Hinata first appeared, in was in chapter 39. Yes, she appeared in episode 1 in the anime, but her appearance in episode one, was not canon since she did not appear in the manga until chapter 39.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know when Hinata first got a crush or started acknowledging Naruto. Therefore, we cannot say that Hinata was the first, or one of the first to acknowledge Naruto. 



> I can see why other people are "annoyed/angry/disgusted" at her confession. There are some things Narusaku fans don't see in Naruhina, and there are some things Naruhina fans don't see in Narusaku. Some people might see it as "rushed" or "unplanned", but other people see it as something that wasn't "rushed" or "unplanned", but developed overtime and was bound to happen.



And that's what I don't understand. A lot of people believe NaruHina was "developed very well" over time.
When in reality.
There is only one scene that really could count as NaruHina.

1. The Naruto and Hinata talk before the final chunnin exams.

That's the only one.
Everything else is only on Hinata's part.
The pairing name is, "NaruHina", correct? It uses both Naruto's name and Hinata's name. But the talk Naruto and Hinata had after the chunnin exams was the only thing that could be considered a NaruHina moment. 
Everything else was on Hinata's view. Let's explore that for a moment.
I will use a few, what people call, NaruHina moments, when they're really only Hinata moments.

Hinata blushes/faints around Naruto: That's only Hinata. Naruto has shown no romantic reply/interest in Hinata when she does that.

Hinata loved/acknowledged Naruto for a long time: For a very long time, Naruto didn't even know. He found out she acknowledged him in that talk before the chunnin exams. Didn't change the fact he wasn't in love with her. 

Hinata wanted to cheer for Naruto at the chunnin exams in his fight with Kiba: Okay, yeah she wanted to, but she didn't. Because she didn't want to upset Kiba. Again, Naruto didn't know. He's no mind-reader, mind you.

Hinata gave Naruto that medicine!: Again, it was Hinata -> Naruto. Naruto appriciated it, but it didn't change his feelings at all. After telling his love interest to try the medicine, he never gave Hinata's kindness a second thought.

Hinata wanted to say goodbye to Naruto before the time-skip! She was the last to see him off!: That doesn't prove anything. Naruto didn't even see or notice Hinata at all as he ran off to the village gates to leave for 2-3 years.

What about Hinata and Naruto's reunion after the time-skip?: Hinata hid from Naruto, not knowing what to say to him. Naruto came up and asked why Hinata was hiding. Hinata blushed, fainted. Naruto was confused as to why she did that.
All romantic feelings come from Hinata. Not Naruto.

Most NaruSaku moments, to us NaruSaku fans, are actually mutual.  
So I think it's pretty clear to see which is the most developed.




> I would certainly look at that person differrently, that's for sure, who knows what might happen in the future.



I never doubted that Naruto would see Hinata differently. I just highly, highly, doubt that he'll return her feelings. 
When Lee protected Sakura from the Sound Ninja's, after that Sakura started to treat Lee with respect and as a friend. But never returned his feelings. I believe that's what Naruto will do to Hinata. 




> It's called being in love with someone, my friend.
> It's too early to judge what Hinata would be in the future, but a character can certainly grow strong while loving a person at the same time.
> 
> Hinata trying to be better for herself, her family, her team, and yes, Naruto.Not Just Naruto.



Again, as forlong said, at least Sakura, Naruto and Lee all had a life outside of their loves/crushes.
The way Hinata is, it appears she doesn't. 

True, we don't know how Hinata will turn out in the future, but I doubt we'll see much of her after this. 

Yeah, a character can grow up and grow strong while being in love, but Hinata's obviously not doing that great of a job. 

I have a doubt that Hinata's mainly doing it for her family and team. Whenever she's doing something big, all I see her say is:

"I want *Naruto-kun* to acknowledge me."

"I have to get better so *Naruto-kun* will acknowledge me."

"I don't want to look bad in front of the person I admire! (*Naruto*)"

I've never seen her say:

"I need to get strong for my family!"

Or

"I need to get better for my team!"
Everything has always pointed to Naruto with her.



> I don't really think you should compare Naruto with Sasuke since they are completely different people. Naruto wouldn't coldly reject someone, or betray Konoha.Hinata also had *true* reasons to like someone.While Sakura, well...lets just say her reasons weren't as good, but she certainly bonded well with Sasuke before he took off to find power, and kill Itachi.



True. Naruto wouldn't *coldly* reject someone. But you're assuming that Naruto would never reject anyone in general.
Which is not true. 
Naruto can reject Hinata without being cold. Being cold to people just isn't Naruto's style. He can reject someone while being kind.
Sasuke's style IS being cold. And that was his way of rejecting Sakura.

I wouldn't say Hinata had a *true* reason to liking Naruto. She liked him because she believed everyone hated him because he was a "failure". And she felt like she could relate to him.
That's about it. Other than that, they have nothing in common and they don't know much about each other.

True, Sakura's reason for liking Sasuke was shallow, but she got over it and grew-up. Something Hinata has yet to do.




> I'm pretty sure a character can be strong and love someone at the same time.Actually, Love makes someone stronger, am I right?Just like what Dumbledore said in Harry Potter.



We've already been through this. You can be strong and love someone at the same time, yes. But Hinata hasn't been doing a very good job at it yet. She has a lot of maturing and growing up before she can get stronger. 
And she needs to let go of Naruto to become stronger. Everything she does is circled around him. Her nindou, her inspiration and everything else. She needs to find her OWN inspiration, strength, motivation and nindou while she's at it. Copying Naruto in everything he believes and does isn't going to develop or help Hinata anytime soon.

And the whole, "Love makes someone stronger" thing can be applied to Hinata in only one way I can think of. The only reason why Hinata has gotten stronger anywhere at all is because Naruto "motivates her". And that's not good. She needs to find her own motivation.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 27, 2009)

Just want to say something.



Serena-hime said:


> We've already been through this. You can be strong and love someone at the same time, yes. But Hinata hasn't been doing a very good job at it yet. She has a lot of maturing and growing up before she can get stronger.
> And she needs to let go of Naruto to become stronger. *Everything she does is circled around him. Her nindou, her inspiration and everything else. She needs to find her OWN inspiration, strength, motivation and nindou while she's at it. Copying Naruto in everything he believes and does isn't going to develop or help Hinata anytime soon.*
> 
> And the whole, "Love makes someone stronger" thing can be applied to Hinata in only one way I can think of. The only reason why Hinata has gotten stronger anywhere at all is because Naruto "motivates her". And that's not good. She needs to find her own motivation.



Since Hinata was little she had difficult confidence problems. It was displayed through Part I many times, maybe the best example of it is the moment where she meets her cousin Neji in the Hyuuga meeting. When she realizes her cousin is looking at her, she tries to get behind her father?s clothes, not so thrilled by the attention she was recieving. When she entered in Team 8 it?s obvious that her childhood problems had not faded and had only gotten worse, to the point that her comments were a whisper.

Childs like her needs guidence since a premature age. Childs need some example to follow when they are growing up, an example to look up to, an example from where they can learn. And imitate.

One of the essentials tacticts of human learning is imitation. How do we humans learn as we grow up? By doing 3 simple things:

Watching.

Imitating.

Experimenting.

Obviously the "example" one is going to follow has to be a positive, inspiring and encouring one. Usually this objects that become our source of imitation are parental figures or guardians that look after us. Hiashi, Hinata?s father was not the best parental figure to look up to for her, as to the only thing he did was put stressed on have and have an strict behaviour. In other words: He deemed her as a failure.

Hinata found Naruto. She _watched_ how he pushed himself through adversity and never gave up, unlike her. Since her father could not provide her the encouragement she needed to believe in herself and something she could look up to, she went for what Naruto showed her and she ended up _looking up_ to him.

From there, she started to _imitate_ Naruto?s "never give up" attitude to improve and find *in* her the strenght that she had. In the Chunnin Exams, we can say that she _experimented_ everything she had seen and put it to the test agaisnt Neji and his phylosophy of fatalism. What was the result? She became a new person. Hinata is in love with Naruto, but when Naruto came back, she had achieved the rank of Chunnin, by herself and without his presence. If it had been the opposite, she will have remained as a Genin, thus still being a failure. Her promotion represents her own mental growth and matureness. She attained what you could say, Heaven and Earth, as Iruka stated what were the elements that composed a Chuunin. 

While Naruto was away, she found the strenght inside of her and became as you state, her own hero. Do you believe she became a Chuunin for Naruto? She has a family, a clan that has expectations of her, a father to prove that she is worthy and not a lost cause. So not everything she does "circles" around Naruto. She is not obsessed. 

You confuse that by copying Naruto that she became a clone of himself and always acts like him and wears the same clothes, etc, which is not true(Lee is an *positive* example of copying )And she definetaly doesn?t do everything he does, because so far I haven?t seen her order a dozen of miso ramen. 

Hinata is still herself. Shy, modest, kind, reserved but like everyone of Naruto?s generation, has developed. And believes in herself. A prime example of that is 437, she pushed away her fears and launched herself to protect Naruto, she believed in that she could make a difference. Part I Hinata would have obeyed Koh?s words. Hinata Part II is someone who *believes in herself.*

And many characters, including Naruto himself, find strenght bia motiviation that comes from important people.

Prime example? Sasuke gives Naruto strenght. Hell, FRS is a jutsu that was created in order to bring Sasuke back and by thinking in him, Naruto was able to do it.

And that is. Feel free to continue with the debate, because I was just passing by.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 27, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Ummm... Okay, I'll give you the first one, but calling out "Good luck" does NOT count as a romantic moment.
> 
> And though I can see where you're coming from with the first one, I don't see it as significant as it seems to be made.  Sakura's action here is prompted by a memory of Naruto talking about how they're getting closer to SASUKE together.  A lot of times that seems to be the thing with these two, their relation is put largely in terms of their relation to Sasuke.



Okay here's a much more deffined NaruSaku moment, though it's mostly Sakura's.

*Spoiler*: _Chapter 443 spoiler_ 



Once Sakura knows Pain is done, she asks how Naruto is.  Hinata doesn't.




You know, I've just thought of something.  Some NaruHina shippers have been saying that any NaruSaku scenes can be interpreted as platonic.  But how are any NaruHina scenes any different?  Other than Hinata's love confession, where's the proof, eh.
ZARU!


----------



## Forlong (Apr 27, 2009)

toreta said:


> Naruto could care less about sakura in that fashion, the kid always made it clear he would never give up his dreams and goals, but as far as romance goes, he's stop this routine with Sakura the second he saw Sakura hug Sasuke and admited to them and smiled that Sasuke and Sakura were meant to be. Now it's just some humor with Sakura, and a habit of his. I never seen him go the distance for Sakura withouta a 3rd party influnencing him.


So giving up on Sakura is somehow not a contradiction of his "never give up" attitude?



toreta said:


> *Spoiler*: _Chapter 343 spoiler_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know "you're bias" isn't a good counter-point.  That aside, here's what Sakura looks like when she's annoyed: Chapter 350 spoiler!  And here's the look you're refering to: Chapter 343 spoiler!
Yeah...she's clearly pissed...



toreta said:


> If thats was NaruSaku than that other scene with Sai was SaiSaku.


Except Naruto and Sakura weren't talking about how she felt about Sasuke.



toreta said:


> NaruSaku has 5 times the screen time? Most of them have been about the Team 7 mantra and Sasuke. You can't say without Sasuke as a motivation would make to two bond closer. At least Hinata has the abilty to make Naruto relate to her. That should be enough.


Naruto can relate to Sakura.  Sakura knows how it feels not to have friends.  She understands perfectly why Naruto wants Sasuke back.  She has the same "never give up" attitude.  How is Hinata better?



toreta said:


> Sakura confession was clearly geniune, despite her age, she loved Sasuke even if she didn't reconize the consequences.


And Naruto's feelings magically aren't!? 
Naruto has risked his life to save Sakura while fighting Gaara.  If that doesn't count, *niether does what Hinata did!?*



toreta said:


> Kishimoto said he didn't have knack for romance, so he was going to try a different approach to it, not the typical kind. You can't say Kishimoto doesn't value Hinata as a character who doesn't have a tie to the main character romantically. There's a reason he drew her before Sakura. She was his ideal girlfriend.


Are you saying the ideal girlfriend follows her boyfriend arround like a lost puppy? 
As for him drawing her first, that really has nothing to do with how important she is.  By that logic, Sasuke isn't important at all, because he wasn't in Kishimoto-sensei's original story-line.



toreta said:


> His feelings for Sasuke and Ramen are stronger than his feelings for Sakura.


I don't recall him risking his life to protect a bowl of ramen!  And weren't his priorities: protect Sakura & bring Sasuke back.  He wants to protect Sakura, _not_ Sasuke.  She's more important to him.
ZARU!



toreta said:


> All scenes confirm that Naruto is a fuck up and a humorous character. The feeding scene was comedic, so was naruto date requests, so was Naruto liking Sakura. Not an ounce of true love.


Teen romance is _always_ played for laughs.  And I don't recall the before-meantioned ramen feeding scene being funny.



toreta said:


> Naruto will never be the same, so Naruto denying a girls love is bullshit. Even if it isn't from his little crush on pinky.



And Sakura's feelings don't count for jack?  Niether do Naruto's?

How would a date between Naruto and Hinata go anyway?  Has _anyone_ actually thought about that?  I have, and it only took five seconds to sound stupid.


----------



## Hikui (Apr 27, 2009)

> M4verick said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry, but I really don't see the logic.  Almost every time team 7 has down time, he's asking or plotting to go on a date with Sakura.  The main things we see in Naruto's mind is;
> ...



This is a joke, right? 

It should be more like:
1. Bringing back Sasuke
2. Training 
3. Hokage
4. Ramen & Dating Sakura

Part II is all about saving Sasuke. Naruto goes into training 2.5 years, learns new jutsus and sage mode. Without training you can't be Hokage. He still wants to be Hokage and worries about every single villager. Ramen & dating Sakura are last, because going on a date with Naruto means going to Ichiraku (remember he doesn't plan them through...). 

On a serious note, you can't just simplify Naruto's character in 5 points. 



Forlong said:


> What about this?  I'd like to know the actually Japanese phrase, because I've seen two different translations.  In this one Narto says, "That's the girl I put my confidence in."  I remember another that goes: "That's the girl I have high hopes for."
> Sound anything like how Hinata refers to Naruto?



 I don't understand the point about Hinata, and that page doesn't mean it's romantic...he's just cheering her up. I can cheer up any of my male friends and it doesn't need to be romantic.



Forlong said:


> Sakura is a main character, and more popular than Hinata (according to the offical polls).  So her developement can hardly be called a waste of panel space.



Spending too much time in romance is waste panel space in most shonen, Naruto included. That's why we only get tidbits. 

I was waiting for this to be addressed. Let's see the numbers shall we?

Now, about Sakura being more popular....

Sakura who is a main character who has appeared in (I dunno...about...) 350/445 (?) chapters is in 6th place or 10th place (I still need the confirmation about her place). 

Hinata who is a secondary character and has appeared (in about?) 50/445 chapters is in place 11th. 

I wonder who is more popular is direct comparison with it's importance and panel time. 



Forlong said:


> It's still a _romantic_ gesture.  And I pointed out that he blushed.  Did he do that because a friend was going to do something nice for him?  That doesn't make sense.


So he blushed? Blush now equals trulub? (if so, NaruHina and SasuSaku would also be cannon, and lots of other pairings). He likes her, he can blush. 



Forlong said:


> Yet there is no way that will happen to NaruHina?


Used same argument (for Hinata confessing) when people say feeding someone is a romantic gesture in Japan. 



Forlong said:


> Same arguement can be made for NaruSaku.  They could have gone on a few off-screne dates.  We see them hanging out together, so it's an easy assumption to make.


Dates are different from hanging out. It's different and you can't make that assumption. That's like saying that Hinata became Naruto's bf, off-screen...didn't happen. 



Forlong said:


> Yeah, and girl's feelings are _always_ clear cut.


Sakura's and Hinata's are. This is shonen, they should be. 



Forlong said:


> Not something most 13-year-olds think about.


Then you must agree with my conception that Naruto doesn't feel romantic trulub for Sakura (at least then), right?



Forlong said:


> Did you regularly ask them out?


Lol no, I'm an old fashioned girl. 



Forlong said:


> Naruto and Sakura have _plenty_ of moments all across the series.


That aren't 100% romantic.


----------



## 王志鍵 (Apr 27, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> As forlong also said, before Naruto became a ninja, they didn't view him only as a "failure". The biggest reason the village looked down on him was because they all believed he was a monster because of the Kyuubi sealed inside of him. Something that Naruto and Naruto's generation didn't know about then.


Naruto's generation saw him as a failure.The older generation saw him as a 
failure and monster,so yes, I agree.


Serena-hime said:


> *We don't know when Hinata actually, truly began to acknowledge Naruto.*
> Why? Because when Hinata first appeared, in was in chapter 39. Yes, she appeared in episode 1 in the anime, but her appearance in episode one, was not canon since she did not appear in the manga until chapter 39.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know when Hinata first got a crush or started acknowledging Naruto. Therefore, we cannot say that Hinata was the first, or one of the first to acknowledge Naruto.


In the anime,While she was thinking about Naruto, and fighting Neji,Hinata said in her mind, 
"I've been watching you for many years now".I don't know if that quote is in the 
actual manga, but I'm pretty sure it is.That should give you an idea on 
how long she's been watching, or acknowledging Naruto.



Serena-hime said:


> And that's what I don't understand. A lot of people believe NaruHina was "developed very well" over time.
> When in reality.
> There is only one scene that really could count as NaruHina.


Let me give you a run down on the Narusaku moments:
1.Naruto has a crush of Sakura
2.During the Chunin exams, Sakura finally starts to acknowledge Naruto
3.Naruto wanted to save Sakura from Gaara,Exactly what Sasuke wanted too.
4.Sakura goes on a date with Naruto because she's worried about Sasuke.
5.Sasuke is about to leave, Sakura is like,"I like you!",Sasuke leaves anyway because he's busy.
So the next day,Sakura was like"Please bring Sasuke back!".Naruto was like,
"OK,promise of a LIFETIME"
6.Two years later,they meet up again.Sakura was like"what sup"Naruto was like"sup"
7.Sakura sees Naruto in kn4.Gets beat.Yamato stops kn4.Sakura heals Naruto.Yamato
was like,"Sakura in reality you...", and didn't finish because something happened.
8.Naruto gets his arm messed up,Sakura feeds him.
9.Pein comes in,wrecks Konoha.Sakura was like, "Naruto come back!"

I think that's it.Part 1 was all Sasusaku,so there's not really any mutual development there, besides acknowledgement of course.You can count
part one, but I don't really count that since Sakura liked Sasuke.
I can't really think of any moments which are purely Naruto,besides Naruto's obvious crush and him asking her out on a
date.I can't think of any at the moment.
I'm fresh with Loooong running manga, but shouldn't a MainboyxMaingirl pairing have more development than that?




Serena-hime said:


> I have a doubt that Hinata's mainly doing it for her family and team. Whenever she's doing something big, all I see her say is:
> 
> "I want *Naruto-kun* to acknowledge me."
> 
> ...


Her father thinks she's weak,she keeps failing her missions in part 1,
she lacks confidence, and You say she only wants to get stronger for 
Naruto's acknowledgement?...



Serena-hime said:


> True. Naruto wouldn't *coldly* reject someone. But you're assuming that Naruto would never reject anyone in general.
> Which is not true.
> Naruto can reject Hinata without being cold. Being cold to people just isn't Naruto's style. He can reject someone while being kind.
> Sasuke's style IS being cold. And that was his way of rejecting Sakura.
> ...


Besides evil, I don't think Naruto rejected anything at all in the 
story.(If you find one, it would be great if you point it out.)
No,Hinata didn't think he was a failure at all.She only saw strength in 
Naruto.
Hinata and Naruto are actually very similar,and very different at the sametime.
Just to name a few,they both have very similar goals and desires,but their 
personalities are totally different.


Serena-hime said:


> We've already been through this. You can be strong and love someone at the same time, yes. But Hinata hasn't been doing a very good job at it yet. She has a lot of maturing and growing up before she can get stronger.
> And she needs to let go of Naruto to become stronger. Everything she does is circled around him. Her nindou, her inspiration and everything else. She needs to find her OWN inspiration, strength, motivation and nindou while she's at it. Copying Naruto in everything he believes and does isn't going to develop or help Hinata anytime soon.
> 
> And the whole, "Love makes someone stronger" thing can be applied to Hinata in only one way I can think of. The only reason why Hinata has gotten stronger anywhere at all is because Naruto "motivates her". And that's not good. She needs to find her own motivation.


Because of Hinata's lack of Panel time in Part 2(thanks Kishi...),
we aren't sure how much she developed during the timeskip.It's too early to 
find out.But I believe her confession was the turning point.What will happen 
with her and Naruto?We don't know.Kishimoto has yet to draw that.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 27, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _NH/NS 437_ 



Personally I don't like how 437 made Hinata look like she rotated around Naruto, making even her fight against Neji looks like a show up to the guy she liked, but I guess that's understandable for a girl that's in love with someone to inspire her like that 
essentially even Sakura is inspired by Naruto getting to know him better and being around Naruto, thus changing herself without having a romantic fixation towards him, which is why I see the influence in a better light. I prefer a character that gets better for themselves to accomplish their goals and dreams, not for merely the obsession they have with someone [or at least some kind of balance or development to reach such status ]
that's why I find NaruHina's recent outcome so unstandable, everything that made her look decisive to affirm her _own_ identity [not from the One Manga translation where Kurenai just says she's trying to change herself] just sunk imo


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 27, 2009)

*My opinion...*

Let's think about how Hinata's love for Naruto has been portrayed throughout this manga.

It's encouraged her to improve herself (she's become a chuunin) and have more confidence in herself (437 proved that).  On Naruto's side, we can see positivity because of her feelings in that because of them, Hinata was able to encourage Naruto before his fight with Neji.

The portrayal and results of her feelings have all been positive to both characters, so why would anyone twist her feelings into something negative and against what the author has portrayed?

If people don't like Hinata's so-called obsession with Naruto, then what about Naruto's feelings in regard to Sasuke?  If Hinata feelings are an unhealthy obsession that must be rejected in order to allow Hinata's character to progress then why isn't it the same with Sasuke?  To be honest, Sasuke's negative effect on Naruto is far more pronounced than whatever percieved negative effect Hinata's love for Naruto has on her.  Naruto almost gave up on Jiraiya's training to pursue Sasuke and it was only Jiraiya accepting the fact that Naruto wouldn't give up on Sasuke that prevented Naruto's potential from going down the toilet because of Sasuke.

The problem with seeing either Naruto's feelings for Sasuke or Hinata's feelings for Naruto as negative is namely:

*Both Hinata's and Naruto's feelings have been portrayed as positive to both characters in each relationship*

So the argument that "Hinata's feelings are detrimental to her character" is basically rejecting what Kishimoto is trying to say.

I mean:



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I prefer a character that gets better for themselves to accomplish their goals and dreams, not for merely the obsession they have with someone [or at least some kind of balance or development to reach such status ]



Isn't Naruto getting better for the "obsession" he has with Sasuke?  So how can you like Naruto?

Either both Naruto's and Hinata's feelings, about Sasuke and Naruto respectively, are "obsession" and negative (which i don't think is true) or their feelings are positive.  The latter is how they have been portrayed throughout this manga, so that is what i choose to believe.

So if her feelings are positive, why should Hinata be rejected?


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 27, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Isn't Naruto getting better for the "obsession" he has with Sasuke?  So how can you like Naruto?



Did you read what I wrote? With *at least some kind of balance or development to reach such status*

1. Naruto doesn't have romantic bias towards Sasuke...unless you want to go there :ho

2. Naruto and Sasuke have a strong mutual relationship strengthened by development for the need they have for each other 



> Either both Naruto's and Hinata's feelings, about Sasuke and Naruto respectively, are "obsession" and negative (which i don't think is true) or their feelings are positive.  The latter is how they have been portrayed throughout this manga, so that is what i choose to believe.



Love isn't given on a deserved basis whether it's positive or not.



> So if her feelings are positive, why should Hinata be rejected?



Cos he doesn't relate to her in a significant way for romance.


----------



## Tenrol (Apr 27, 2009)

my bad i did a mistake had to repost.



BruceLeefan said:


> Part 1 was all Sasusaku?


  care to give me a list?

Here mine. 

1:All Sasuke had to say to Sakura when whe was worried MrPain

2. Sasuke rejecting her concern  this here again  this

3. Sasuke has the dog to watch over Sakura this

4. yet again Sasuke reject Sakura's kindness this

5. lol Sasuke is mean this

6. Because they talk alot to each other. this

7. lol i forgot to post the page the first time Sasuke said she was annoying in chapter 3. this

my ss list 





> Her father thinks she's weak,she keeps failing her missions in part 1,
> she lacks confidence, and You say she only wants to get stronger for
> Naruto's acknowledgement?...



I don't know but she sure didn't said otherwise.




> No,Hinata didn't think he was a failure at all.She only saw strength in
> Naruto.



no of course she didn't this


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 27, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Did you read what I wrote? With *at least some kind of balance or development to reach such status*
> 
> 1. Naruto doesn't have romantic bias towards Sasuke...unless you want to go there :ho
> 
> ...



What balance?  Naruto was rejected by Sasuke.  My point is that the feelings that Naruto and Hinata have are presented as positive.  In a similar way, we have been shown reasons for those feelings on both Naruto and Hinata's parts.

If you take into account that the feelings should be seen as positive, and then consider that we are then given reasons for those feelings, does that suggest that the reasons for those feelings are moot?  No.

And on the basis of development, we're gonna have to disagree, because i feel there was enough between both Naruto and Hinata and Naruto and Sasuke to warrant what they all feel about each other.

Whatever you say, Naruto and Hinata do have a mutual relationship.  Granted, in terms of their relationship it's friendship at the moment, but like i said, they've had enough interaction to justify Hinata's feelings.  Otherwise, what is Kishimoto doing by continuing to play up those feelings?



> No,Hinata didn't think he was a failure at all.She only saw strength in
> Naruto.
> 
> no of course she didn't this



Doesn't this show that Hinata has a deep understanding of Naruto?  She says he was a "proud failure" and that true strength is having the strength to get back up.  Tell me that doesn't sum Naruto up perfectly...


----------



## Amai106 (Apr 27, 2009)

Starr said:


> Sasuke is Sasuke, he does not have Naruto's personality and would not react the same way as Naruto would.
> 
> 
> 
> Simple, the manga. I can't really say anything else about the topic at hand because it's been discussed over and over again.



im sorry refresh my memory.

also when have you seen that in the manga??,i need something more specific than that. example,i could say narutoxino is cannon but i have no proof and say just look in the manga.it doesnt work like that


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 27, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> What balance?  Naruto was rejected by Sasuke.  My point is that the feelings that Naruto and Hinata have are presented as positive.  In a similar way, we have been shown reasons for those feelings on both Naruto and Hinata's parts.



I'm talking about balance of objectives. Sasuke isn't just Naruto's obsession, he is necessary for _his_ dream in the first place.

I don't think the way Hinata has been shown to rotate around Naruto as positive for her independence or development.



> If you take into account that the feelings should be seen as positive, and then consider that we are then given reasons for those feelings, does that suggest that the reasons for those feelings are moot?  No.



Take a look at how they were presented. Stalking.



> And on the basis of development, we're gonna have to disagree, because i feel there was enough between both Naruto and Hinata and Naruto and Sasuke to warrant what they all feel about each other.



I'm afraid not. Naruto wasn't affected significantly by Hinata with so little interaction. They are not close.



> Whatever you say, Naruto and Hinata do have a mutual relationship.  Granted, in terms of their relationship it's friendship at the moment, but like i said, they've had enough interaction to justify Hinata's feelings.  Otherwise, what is Kishimoto doing by continuing to play up those feelings?



No, it justifies an over-idealized love which isn't mature.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 27, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> I'm talking about balance of objectives. Sasuke isn't just Naruto's obsession, he is necessary for _his_ dream in the first place.
> 
> *I don't think the way Hinata has been shown to rotate around Naruto as positive for her independence or development*.
> 
> ...



She was inspired by Naruto, yes?
She has improved, yes?
That's positive, yes?
Doesn't this manga stress the interdependance of people, and how making yourself an island is a bad thing?  And even though Naruto was her inspiration, Hinata has improved *herself*.

Next point.

She wasn't stalking him, even Sakura says "She was always watching you" in chapter 80.  It's portrayed as positive, and Sakura says it with a smile.  Again, when Hinata confesses, when she says she was always watching him it is a postive statement.  You're the one applying the negative spin.

They may not be the absolutely best of friends that spend all their time together, but they're not exactly distant.  And Hinata did have a significant effect in chapter 98.  I mean:

Naruto: "Thanks Hinata, i was feeling uncharacteristically depressed but... now i feel great!"

I don't even have to interpret that, just read the words...

And Hinata does not idolise Naruto.  She is aware of his flaws (chapter 98 again), it is the fact that she sees them and loves him anyway that makes it a deeper love in my opinion.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 27, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I don't understand the point about Hinata, and that page doesn't mean it's romantic...he's just cheering her up. I can cheer up any of my male friends and it doesn't need to be romantic.


By that logic, Hinata encouraging Naruto before his fight with Neji doesn't count as a NaruHina hint!  He wasn't cheering her up because she wasn't depressed!  And he was using phrases you don't normally use for "just friends".



Hikui said:


> Now, about Sakura being more popular....
> 
> Sakura who is a main character who has appeared in (I dunno...about...) 350/445 (?) chapters is in 6th place or 10th place (I still need the confirmation about her place).
> 
> ...


Sakura is in 6th place with over 9,000 votes.  Not that it's all that important.



Hikui said:


> So he blushed? Blush now equals trulub? (if so, NaruHina and SasuSaku would also be cannon, and lots of other pairings). He likes her, he can blush.


I was refuting a claim that it was totally platonic.  I don't need that scene to proove Naruto loves Sakura, that's already a given.



Hikui said:


> Dates are different from hanging out. It's different and you can't make that assumption. That's like saying that Hinata became Naruto's bf, off-screen...didn't happen.


Dating is hanging out.  The rest is surely true, part of the point I was making.



Hikui said:


> Then you must agree with my conception that Naruto doesn't feel romantic trulub for Sakura (at least then), right?


I'm sorry, you apparently don't get it.  Boys can fall in love at that age, but they don't think about who they're going to marry!



Hikui said:


> That aren't 100% romantic.


Then there are also absolutely 0 romantic moments between Naruto and Hinata.  There isn't even a hint of mutual feelings between Naruto and Hinata.  At least I've been able to find indications that Sakura might feel the same way for Naruto.  Hell, _KISHIMOTO_ says it outright in the databook: "Sakura is unsure about how she feels about Naruto".  Can you find any indication that Naruto has ever looked at Hinata as more than a friend?



BruceLeefan said:


> Naruto's generation saw him as a failure.The older generation saw him as a failure and monster,so yes, I agree.


Nope.  They saw how the adults treated him and picked up on it.



BruceLeefan said:


> In the anime,While she was thinking about Naruto, and fighting Neji,Hinata said in her mind,
> "I've been watching you for many years now".I don't know if that quote is in the
> actual manga, but I'm pretty sure it is.That should give you an idea on
> how long she's been watching, or acknowledging Naruto.


But while Hinata was thinking that, Sakura was cheering for Naruto.  Regardless of what you say Hinata _DID NOT_ acknowledge Naruto until he beat the living crap out of Kiba.  Sakura acknowledged him long before that.



BruceLeefan said:


> Let me give you a run down on the Narusaku moments:
> 1.Naruto has a crush of Sakura
> 2.During the Chunin exams, Sakura finally starts to acknowledge Naruto
> 3.Naruto wanted to save Sakura from Gaara,Exactly what Sasuke wanted too.
> ...


1: No problem there, but after that, you should have included:
* Sakura warning Naruto of danger.
* Sakura giving Naruto advice on how to maintain chakra control.
2: Wrong.  She started acknowledging him at the end of the Zabuza Arc.  And you also forgot:
* Defending Naruto's dream in the first test.
* Back-talking Sasuke for looking down on Naruto.
3: And Sasuke wanting that suddenly negates it?  Naruto said, "I will protect Sakura-chan, no matter what".  I've explained it a hundred times.  This is a confession of love and everlasting commitment to the Japanese.
* You forgot the warm smile she gave Naruto when Sasuke told her who saved her.
4 & 5: No problem here.  Naruto feels Sakura's happiness is more important than his own.  That's nothing _but_ love.
* Sakura promises to be there for Naruto next time.
6: Actually, Sakura asks him if she looks more womenly.  Hmmmmm.
* Sakura thinking "I promised Naruto we'd work together...I promised that I'd protect them both."  She thought of Naruto first.
* Sai's assessment of Sakura's feelings.
7: You forgot about Sakura crying because she can't do anything she thinks is meaningful for Naruto.  Not "her friends"...NARUTO!
* Sakura watched Naruto train.  Most likely to give him support.
8: You didn't bring up the flashback?
9: And making sure he's okay after he beats Pain.
And that's just off the top of my head.



BruceLeefan said:


> I think that's it.Part 1 was all Sasusaku,so there's not really any mutual development there, besides acknowledgement of course.You can count


Then you can't count any of NaruHina.  I'll say it again: "Proove Hinata loved Naruto _without_ the love confession".
ZARU!


----------



## Amai106 (Apr 27, 2009)

dropsoap said:


> Sakura isn't on the list he "never gives up on", it's a quirk of his not a defining characteristic, like the Hokage, Sasuke and Ramen.
> 
> 
> She looks like sleeping.
> ...



just because sakura had friends doesnt mean she cant be with someone that didnt have as much friends.
you act like there are 2 kinds of ppl.the ppl that have friends and the ppl that dont have friends and they should stick to there "group" or somethin. thats not a rule.
.



> The ideal girlfriend is the one who would support her man and sacrafice her life to save a loved one.



so your saying that sakura wouldnt risk her life to save the one she loves or even her friends??thats idiotic. sakura has a heart and i think she would save them no matter how close they are




> Sakura feelings were proven real. Naruto's were proven to be a joke when he keeps asking Sakura on a date like a fool



i dont think naruto is joking about his feelings for someone special i mean come on,u make it sound like narutos stupid and he damn aint stupid for trying to sakura to go out on a date with him


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 27, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> She was inspired by Naruto, yes?
> She has improved, yes?
> That's positive, yes?
> Doesn't this manga stress the interdependance of people, and how making yourself an island is a bad thing?  And even though Naruto was her inspiration, Hinata has improved *herself*.
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Hinata got pwnt by Pein with him as toll in 5 secs causing Naruto to explode for emotional turmoil yes?





> She wasn't stalking him, even Sakura says "She was always watching you" in chapter 80.  It's portrayed as positive, and Sakura says it with a smile.  Again, when Hinata confesses, when she says she was always watching him it is a postive statement.  You're the one applying the negative spin.



No, I'm not making lack of panel-time or development something it's not.



> They may not be the absolutely best of friends that spend all their time together, but they're not exactly distant.  And Hinata did have a significant effect in chapter 98.  I mean:
> 
> Naruto: "Thanks Hinata, i was feeling uncharacteristically depressed but... now i feel great!"
> 
> I don't even have to interpret that, just read the words...



Many characters have encouraged Naruto and inspired him to react  I wonder how canon those pairings are. Let's take the fact he bothered to flashback those moments too.

Lack is lacking, I never said NaruHina didn't have potential.



> And Hinata does not idolise Naruto.  She is aware of his flaws (chapter 98 again), it is the fact that she sees them and loves him anyway that makes it a deeper love in my opinion.



Only when it comes to herself. When I say lack of maturity I mean mostly she lacked understanding of him
*Spoiler*: __ 



and I think she made rash decisions in 437. Sakura points this out.


 But that aside I said her love was idealized, not she idolized him. You can't truly love someone you don't know, that's my opinion. She isn't close to him, period, or she would have helped him with his loneliness issues way back.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 27, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> They may not be the absolutely best of friends that spend all their time together, but they're not exactly distant.  And Hinata did have a significant effect in chapter 98.  I mean:
> 
> Naruto: "Thanks Hinata, i was feeling uncharacteristically depressed but... now i feel great!"
> 
> I don't even have to interpret that, just read the words...



Sakura has done that too, has she not?

"Naruto, crying will not bring Sasuke back.  I told you that we'd do it together.  We'll get stronger together."

ZARU-TASTIC!


----------



## 王志鍵 (Apr 27, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> my bad i did a mistake had to repost.
> 
> 
> care to give me a list?
> ...



Nice list.I would love to see your ns list though.

She was explaining something...... Proud failure would also mean a person that keeps trying until they get something right.Proud failure doesn't technically mean failure right?...Oh F$%k it, I need a drag


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 28, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Hinata got pwnt by Pein with him as toll in 5 secs causing Naruto to explode for emotional turmoil yes?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What Hinata did in 437 was positive.  That's how it was portrayed.  She was protecting someone important to her, a major theme of this story.  The fact that she was defeated is irrelevant (no really, it was ).  What about when Naruto defended Tsunade and was defeated and nearly died?  The fact he wanted to protect Tsunade was positive and was presented as such, even if it resulted in something bad.

And i know i keep returning to this question but...

*When has Hinata exhibited a lack of understanding of Naruto?*  All we have proof of is that she *does* understand him.  When you say she "hardly knows" him, you are basing that on what?  The fact we haven't seen them in 100+ panels together?  Some moments are more important than others, and at important times, Hinata has proved that she understands Naruto.

And many characters might have encouraged him to react, but to who else has he admitted that he isn't as strong as he makes himself out to be?  He has only opened himself up and spoken about his fears to Iruka, after Jiraiya died, and his father, after he lost himself following the critical injury of a certain girl.

Basically, your argument is flawed because she does know enough about Naruto.  And you don't need to know every single little thing about someone to love them.

Lack of panel time, yes.  Lack of development, no.  And lack of understanding, definitely not.

Finally, using the fact that she didn't approach him when they were younger to prove she isn't close to him now is stretching things a little.  And we know she had issues with self-worth and confidence, is it really so hard to understand why it might have been hard for her to approach him then?



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> Sakura has done that too, has she not?
> 
> "Naruto, crying will not bring Sasuke back. I told you that we'd do it together. We'll get stronger together."



Naruto hasn't opened up to her in the same way as he did for Hinata.  In that scene, Naruto and Sakura are hurt because of Sasuke, and don't gain any further understanding of each other.  She already knows that Naruto really wants Sasuke back, and Naruto already knows Sakura wants to get him back too.  It's a team 7 moment, proved by the fact that Sai then steps in and offers his support and Naruto thanks him for his words, and not Sakura.  Naruto says *nothing* in response to Sakura's words.

And what about Sakura's tears in that scene?  What are they for?  In all honesty, the only time we really see Naruto and Sakura bonding is when Sasuke is the subject, which does seem an odd way to begin a relationship if you ask me...


----------



## 王志鍵 (Apr 28, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Nope.  They saw how the adults treated him and picked up on it.


You did see how the other kids looked down on him right?(As seen during the Chunin exams.)



Forlong said:


> But while Hinata was thinking that, Sakura was cheering for Naruto.  Regardless of what you say Hinata _DID NOT_ acknowledge Naruto until he beat the living crap out of Kiba.  Sakura acknowledged him long before that.


check it:
Here
You can say whatever you want.But we do know Hinata has been watching Naruto for *years*.




Forlong said:


> 1: No problem there, but after that, you should have included:
> * Sakura warning Naruto of danger.
> * Sakura giving Naruto advice on how to maintain chakra control.
> 2: Wrong.  She started acknowledging him at the end of the Zabuza Arc.  And you also forgot:
> ...


My list was very bland, I apologize.Thx for adding the details. 
If MainguyxMaingirl that is bound to happen,according to you,it should have more development in the beginning don't you think?But instead, Kishi decided to focus on OthermainguyxMaingirl in half of his story so far.

Without the love confession huh?ch 434, read it.


----------



## hmph (Apr 28, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Let's think about how Hinata's love for Naruto has been portrayed throughout this manga.



No. Lets not. Lets talk about *someone else's* feelings for once in this thread, because believe it or not, it takes more people than Hinata to make a relationship.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 28, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> > What Hinata did in 437 was positive.



*Spoiler*: __ 




Which is why she mentions selfishness?

Which is why no one else with a brain intervened?

Which is why Sakura disapproved?



It is arbituary.



> That's how it was portrayed.  She was protecting someone important to her, a major theme of this story.  The fact that she was defeated is irrelevant (no really, it was ).  What about when Naruto defended Tsunade and was defeated and nearly died?  The fact he wanted to protect Tsunade was positive and was presented as such, even if it resulted in something bad.



It's called "justified development" vs. "out of no where".

Hinata's theme was change and upholding an ideal represented by Naruto.
*Spoiler*: __ 



And she interfered KNOWING she couldn't do anything, admitting the selfishness of her action, causing him to explode from the shock. By any logic seeing something like that would have left someone hurt and guilty.





> *When has Hinata exhibited a lack of understanding of Naruto?*  All we have proof of is that she *does* understand him.  When you say she "hardly knows" him, you are basing that on what?  The fact we haven't seen them in 100+ panels together?  Some moments are more important than others, and at important times, Hinata has proved that she understands Naruto.



*Spoiler*: __ 



To me, suddenly dying in front of Naruto as he watches helplessly is clear ignorement or disregard of his feelings. Had her action been justified by some damn development or sensible transition I wouldn't be saying this. Instead she had to confess and almost die with her blatantly onesided love. Great.





> And many characters might have encouraged him to react, but to who else has he admitted that he isn't as strong as he makes himself out to be?  He has only opened himself up and spoken about his fears to Iruka, after Jiraiya died, and his father, after he lost himself following the critical injury of a certain girl.



Naruto confessed his heart out in the VotE, not all outloud, cos obviously one will try to hide deep significant feelings 

This arguement is abused for SasuSaku as well. Admitting shit easily doesn't prove anything for a pairing if nothing becomes of it to said person. And for SasuSaku this reasoning is a thousand times more valid.

Anyway what I really want to point out is subtle relationships don't become fodder cos one is able to say something to someone outloud. Look at Naruto and Sakura. They don't need words to feel for each other in a mutual way even if it doesn't always meet. Hinata's exchanges with Naruto seem far more light-hearted on Naruto's part, and that makes the _difference_.



> Basically, your argument is flawed because she does know enough about Naruto.  And you don't need to know every single little thing about someone to love them.
> 
> Lack of panel time, yes.  Lack of development, no.  And lack of understanding, definitely not.



Excuse me if I think romantic potential is well seated in mutually developed relationships that show up during 200+ chapters.



> Finally, using the fact that she didn't approach him when they were younger to prove she isn't close to him now is stretching things a little.  And we know she had issues with self-worth and confidence, is it really so hard to understand why it might have been hard for her to approach him then?



She didn't perceive his pain of loneliness period. Just the fact he was alienated thus the pain of the lack of recognition.


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 28, 2009)

> 1: No problem there, but after that, you should have included:
> * Sakura warning Naruto of danger.
> * Sakura giving Naruto advice on how to maintain chakra control.
> 2: Wrong. She started acknowledging him at the end of the Zabuza Arc. And you also forgot:
> ...



A number of these I can see, but some of them are stretching more than a few points.  Sakura warning of Naruto of danger and helping him learn chakra control is romantic?  Kakashi must be love with the kid, then.  Watching Naruto train is romantic?  Hinata has been doing that for years.  Making sure he's okay?  Shows concern, but doesn't imply anything further.  

The others, I can see a little bit further, but they're all mostly in the framework of a team setting.  Generally, as I've said before, Sakura looks at Naruto in terms of their quest to return Sasuke.  Now, it's possible she's starting to look at him as something more.  But everyone is starting to see more to Naruto then they thought.  Heck, Pein is.  In my opinion, it's too little, too late.



> Then you can't count any of NaruHina. I'll say it again: "Proove Hinata loved Naruto without the love confession".
> ZARU!



I'm curious: what does "ZARU" mean?  Is it just a fun statement of yours or does it mean "Gotcha" in some language?

As for proving Hinata loved Naruto (without use of confession), even if we ignore the Chunin exam moments, we have her fainting when first meeting Naruto and expressing a hope to be acknowledged by Naruto during Three-Tails.  Granted, that's one-sided, but you're asking for proof that HINATA loves Naruto.  Even outside of the confession, it's well documented.

Something else... I find it hard to believe that people are still getting after Hinata for charging in to save Naruto.  The manga doesn't portray it as a negative thing at all.  Was she outmatched?  Yes.  Did she think she was going to die?  Oh yes.  Did she think her contribution would have much effect?  No.  

Essentially, she charged in because she couldn't stand it anymore.  She loves Naruto, so she acts like Sakura did in jumping front of Gaara during the Orochimaru invasion.  There was absolutely no point to that (Oh yeah, I'm going to stop the enormous sand monster with a little kunai.  That'll work)  She acts instinctively.  That's a fairly well-established love-action.

Additional question.  Did Hinata's contribution end up having an effect?  OH YEAH.

Essentially, if she hadn't, Naruto would've gotten sucked away pretty quickly and ended up occupying a space in the "Sealing Statue."  Granted, her interference indirectly caused the emergence of the 6-8-9 tailed fox, which toasted what was left of the village, but she can't be blamed for that.  And the fact that he reacted so strongly to her (supposed) death, shows at the very least that he was VERY stirred by what happened.

I might be reading my own feelings into the strip somewhat, but everyone's reaction to Hinata doesn't seem like disapproval.  Shock, perhaps.  Disbelief, perhaps.  But not disapproval in the sense of "You naughty girl, why did you run in to die?  You should know better."  Sakura's statement seems more like awe, almost.  "Shouldn't" is much like the Western: "You shouldn't have taken that bullet.  That bullet was meant for me, you shouldn't have sacrificed yourself for me."


----------



## hmph (Apr 28, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Sakura warning of Naruto of danger and helping him learn chakra control is romantic?  Kakashi must be love with the kid, then.



Yes. Precisely. 

More seriously, it's a display of caring, a sign of depth, Sakura decided to spend her free time on Naruto.


----------



## Drunkenwhale (Apr 28, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> If MainguyxMaingirl that is bound to happen,according to you,it should have more development in the beginning don't you think?But instead, Kishi decided to focus on OthermainguyxMaingirl in half of his story so far.



Considering it has been, although quite slowly...

Sakura hated Naruto. But throughout part 1 she slowly began seeing that he wasn't the kid that was trying to get in the way of her romance but a person who cared about her and someone she could count on.

From hating him to trusting him, and it wasn't a sudden thing here, it was a path that could only be noticed if you paid attention, if the audience saw what was going on and waited for it to smack them right in the face.

And as Part 2 continues, that trust and friendship seems to be taking a course into something more...


----------



## Mogami Kyoko (Apr 28, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> You did see how the other kids looked down on him right?(As seen during the Chunin exams.)



What forlong said was correct. It was because of the children's parents that they hated Naruto.

Here's proof:
Yes. Precisely. 

As Sarutobi (The third hokage) said to Iruaki:
"But the adults of this villages don't see Naruto this way. (He mentioned earlier, the 4th Hokage sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto so he could be a hero.)
Not only that, but because of their attitude towards him...*the children act the same way...*"



> check it:
> Yes. Precisely.
> You can say whatever you want.But we do know Hinata has been watching Naruto for *years*.



Okay. Now that it's been confirmed I'll admit that's the truth. But. I as I may or may not have mentioned before, when Hinata started to acknowledge Naruto, doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to him is when he found out. And by the time he found out, many other people had already acknowledged him.




> If MainguyxMaingirl that is bound to happen,according to you,it should have more development in the beginning don't you think?But instead, Kishi decided to focus on OthermainguyxMaingirl in half of his story so far.



I've heard this a lot in Anti-NaruSaku arguments. 
Naruto and Sakura's relationship WAS developed in part 1. They were subtle hints, but they were there.

I'll be happy to show them to you:


*Spoiler*: _Because there is a lot_ 



Chapter 3: Yes. Precisely. 
-The famous, "I feel like I finally understand...why I like her." (Naruto to Sakura)

Chapter 3: Yes. Precisely. 
-After Sasuke told Sakura she was annoying, Sakura began to realize that Naruto may have been hurt the same way she just was, when Sakura called him annoying. So she decided she could be a little nicer to him.

Chapter 5: Yes. Precisely. 
-A lot of NaruSaku fans pointed this out. In the previous chapter, Sakura claimed she "hated" Naruto. But if she truly did "hate" him, then she wouldn't have given her position away to Kakashi just to cry to Naruto, saying that he would get killed by Kakashi. 
A little something that proves that Sakura didn't hate Naruto in part 1.

Chapter 13: Yes. Precisely. 
-Here, we have Sakura acknowledging him and wondering what this "unknown" feeling he was giving her was.

Chapter 17: How To Get Rid Of Genital Warts
-In this page, we have a whole top panel of Sakura, again, acknowledging Naruto.

Chapter 18: How To Get Rid Of Genital Warts
-Sakura, having the best chakra control, surpassed Naruto and Sasuke in the tree climbing training. Even though Naruto was annoyed that he couldn't do it well on the first time, like Sakura, he was very happy and proud of Sakura, admiring her skills.

Chapter 18: Yes. Precisely. 
-After a while of training, Sakura is worn out while the boys still have energy to burn. Sakura assumed that Naruto would just get angry and give up. And just when she thought she was right, Naruto goes to her and asks her for help/advice. Looking at Sakura's face, she's clearly surprised. And it looks like she has something of a blush on her face. But if it's a blush or not can be up to the reader.

Chapter 31: Yes. Precisely. 
-Sasuke is believed to be dead and Sakura finds him, crying for his supposed death. When Naruto starts to hear Sakura's cries, he clenches his heart in pain. It hurt him to hear the one he loved in pain.

Chapter 43: How To Get Rid Of Genital Warts and Yes. Precisely. 
-It's the last question on the first test of the chunnin exam. If you fail the final question you will never become a chunnin. Sakura is worried about this and is thinking about Naruto. She recalls all the times he's said he was going to become Hokage. Even though she believes it's an impossible dream, she doesn't want to see Naruto's dream crushed. So she was about to raise her hand and make the whole team quit the exams. And she was doing it for Naruto, not even thinking of how Sasuke would feel/react.

Chapter 49: Yes. Precisely. 
-Sasuke was about to give up the whole exam to save his life and Sakura yells at him, calling him a coward. Saying that at least Naruto wasn't a coward. 

Chapter 66: Yes. Precisely.  and Link removed
-Sakura is worried about Sasuke ever since he received the cursed seal from Orochimaru. She asks him to forfeit the next exam with tears in her eyes. Naruto is moved by her tears.
Sakura is then unable to convince Sasuke while Sasuke tells Sakura to stay out of his business, saying that he would never forgive her if she told the examiners about the cursed seal and leaves her depressed. Naruto gets ticked off at Sasuke basically telling him to stop acting cool while Sakura is worried about him.


----------



## Mogami Kyoko (Apr 28, 2009)

(Sorry for the double post. The last post was too big.)


*Spoiler*: _Continued_ 



Chapter 134: Link removed and Link removed
-For me and other NaruSaku fans, this is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, NaruSaku scene(s) in all of part 1.
The whole time Naruto was fighting Gaara, one of the biggest reasons why Naruto was fighting him was because of Sakura. Gaara was going to take Sakura's life if Naruto didn't fight/defeat him.
And in the pages I provided for you, on page 12 (which I didn't post) Naruto states he has no chakra left; he used it all up on the kage bunshins. He was about to be killed by Gaara's desert coffin and while the sand was gathering around him, he looked at Sakura. Seeing that her life was still on the line, Naruto didn't give up and summoned Gamabunta; exclaiming that he would protect "Sakura-chan", just before the desert coffin technique crushed him.


Chapter 138: Link removed and How To Get Rid Of Genital Warts
-After Naruto defeated Gaara, Sasuke came over to Naruto and said that Sakura was fine and safe now. Naruto was glad that she was safe. Knowing that Sakura was safe, Naruto was able to relax; passing out.

Chapter 144: Link removed
-It's not long after the fight with Gaara and Sakura thanks Sasuke for saving her from Gaara while Naruto is in the background, trying to do Chidori.
Sasuke says he didn't save her, Naruto did. She doesn't believe him at first until Sasuke says it again, saying Naruto risked death to save her and that she hasn't really "seen" Naruto or his strength yet.
Sakura looks at Naruto and smiles softly. A smile we've never seen Sakura give Naruto or even Sasuke before.


Chapter 172: How To Get Rid Of Genital Warts and Link removed
-It's nothing too big, but Sakura is sitting by Sasuke's (who is unconscious)  hospital bed. Tsunade comes in and Sakura asks who she is. Naruto suddenly appears from behind Tsunade and promises Sakura that Sasuke will be okay and that Tsunade is an amazing doctor. Sakura smiles at Naruto, encouraged.


Chapter 172: Link removed and Link removed
-When Sasuke wakes up, Sakura begins to cry and hugs him in relief. Naruto watches them and heartbreak is clear on his face. He smiles sadly, knowing that at least Sakura is happy. Without saying anything, Naruto turns and leaves. Tsunade notices this and states that Naruto is more sensitive than he looks. 


Chapter 178: Link removed and Link removed

-Sakura is at her home, leaning out the window and remembering previous events: Sakura breaks her promise to Sasuke and tells Naruto that she needs to tell him something and makes it a date. 
While they're on their date, Sakura opens up to Naruto and tells him everything that happened to Sasuke. Naruto is starting to understand and says that Orochimaru is an extremely powerful and one of the three legendary sennin. Sakura starts to look depressed and when Naruto sees this he immediately cheers her up, telling her not to worry. His smile and words cause current Sakura, who is still leaning out her window, to smile.


Chapter 183: Link removed  Link removed  Link removed and Link removed
-Okay. I was wrong about the Gaara fight being the biggest NaruSaku moment in part 1. THIS is the biggest moment.
The very famous, "Promise of a Lifetime". 
Sakura talks to Naruto before he leaves to bring back Sasuke with his team. She begins to cry and says she wasn't able to stop Sasuke and that Naruto is the only one who can. She begs him to bring him back.
Naruto, again, has a heartbroken face for a moment before putting on a smile for Sakura, saying that she really likes Sasuke. He also says that he understands her pain for Sasuke. Sakura then realizes that she was completely wrong about Naruto. He wasn't the person she thought he was. She thanks Naruto and Naruto tells her that he will bring Sasuke back; It's a promise of a lifetime! 
Sakura then says to herself that Naruto always knew and always helped her. 
This is Naruto's ultimate act of love for Sakura. Putting her happiness before his own. An unselfish love.
But one mistake people make is saying that Naruto dropped his feelings for Sakura when he made that promise. Which is not true.


Chapter 236: Link removed  Link removed  Link removed   Link removed  Link removed  and  Link removed
-Naruto failed his mission to bring Sasuke back. Sakura enters Naruto's hospital room after hearing the results of the mission. Naruto apologizes to Sakura. Sakura puts on a fake smile to try and cheer Naruto up and to hide her own sadness. She asks why he's apologizing and tries to lighten the mood a little. Naruto apologizes again and Sakura still tries to lighten the mood. Naruto then tells her that he's defiantly going to keep his promise, saying its a lifelong promise. Sakura tries to tell him it's alright but Naruto says that he won't go back on his word because it's his ninja way. 
Sakura looks at him sadly and remembers what she asked of him before he left. She realizes that her selfish requests has caused Naruto a lot of pain and has even put him in a hospital bed. But Naruto's cheerfulness causes her to smile. She thinks to herself that she trusts Naruto completely. 
She turns to leave and tells herself that she couldn't do anything to help and makes a decision. She tells Naruto that next time, they would do it together!
Thus she requests Tsunade to make her, her apprentice.





So as you can see, there is a ton of NaruSaku development in Part 1. The biggest thing you can notice through this development is Sakura's view on Naruto and Naruto's matured feelings for Sakura. 

But I would suppose that the NaruSaku wasn't as noticeable because there was a lot of SasuSaku related things. (One-sided though.)


----------



## M4verick (Apr 28, 2009)

Hikui said:


> This is a joke, right?
> 
> It should be more like:
> 1. Bringing back Sasuke
> ...




Debatable, depends how you looks at it really.

Naruto needs to eat to be able to bring back Sasuke, and what does Naruto mainly eat? Ramen.  Naruto trains hard because he wants to be Hokage.  Hokage is his vision which comes first.  Than he puts forth the work to achieve his vision.




Hikui said:


> On a serious note, you can't just simplify Naruto's character in 5 points.



Seriously, these are top 5, I never said the end all above all points now did I?  Than again, I guess I never said top 5, oh well.

_PS: I'm new here, so this may seem odd, but.....what is up with everyone using the cookie monster in there post all the time?_


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 28, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Which is why she mentions selfishness?
> 
> Which is why no one else *with a brain *intervened?
> 
> Which is why Sakura disapproved?



1. It wasn't selfish.  Again, you're applying negative spin to something that is meant to be seen positively.  I also find it slightly odd that you believe Hinata when she says she is being selfish, but not when she says she loves Naruto.

2. Kishimoto chose Hinata.  Make of that what you like.

3. Sakura didn't disapprove, at least not for the reason that you seem to be suggesting.  Sakura disapproved because she doesn't want to see one of her friends injured or killed, not because Hinata tried to defend Naruto or because she confessed to him.  Sakura doesn't know that Hinata confessed, so how can she disapprove?

And from that bolded comment i think you're straying into bashing territory there, and i suspect that's where your feelings against this pairing really come from.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> It's called "justified development" vs. *"out of no where".*
> 
> Hinata's theme was change and upholding an ideal represented by Naruto.
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Again, see above.

Hmm, if it were me, i would apprieciate the fact that someone was willing to die for me.  Put it this way, which is better; Naruto dying or Naruto having his feelings hurt?  She's putting his physical safety above his feelings, which is pretty sensible if you ask me.  The fact she's willing to intervene when she knows she's no match proves the strength of her feelings.  She has to try, she's afraid of losing him.

Agin, this is boiling down to how Hinata's feelings are seen.  Sorry for those people who think i'm focusing too much on Hinata's feelings, but until it is accepted that these feelings come from a positive and thematically backed up place, i can't drop it.

Hinata's feelings have been positively portrayed throughout this story, and especially in 437.  And as far as "out of nowhere" goes, again i would have to disagree.  Whenever we have had Hinata in this story, her feelings towards Naruto have been highlighted.  In the actual battle between Pain and Naruto, Kishimoto showed us the concern Hinata had, and almost had her going to him.  Furthermore, considering what we had been given by Kishimoto, the only other person for whom such a gesture in that part of the story wouldn't have been "out of nowhere" would have been Shikamaru, but he was broken.  We weren't shown concern for Naruto or willingness to help Naruto from anyone other than Hinata or Shikamaru.

And compare Hinata's sacrifice to the one Naruto made for Tsunade back in part 1.  On all counts, Naruto knew less about Tsunade than Hinata does about Naruto, and yet was still willing to protect her.  Are you arguing that was out of nowhere?

Your objections seem to rest totally on the confession part of Hinata's character and the feelings that Hinata has for Naruto.  To be honest, i think that because of your dislike for Hinata, your arguments are based on devaluing her as a character and purposefully reading scenes in that way instead of taking what the author is obviously trying to portray into account.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> This arguement is abused for SasuSaku as well. *Admitting shit easily doesn't prove anything for a pairing if nothing becomes of it to said person*. And for SasuSaku this reasoning is a thousand times more valid.



But something did become of Naruto admitting how he felt to Hinata.  His view of her changed.  And i'm not arguing about SasuSaku.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Anyway what I really want to point out is subtle relationships don't become fodder cos one is able to say something to someone outloud. Look at Naruto and Sakura. They don't need words to feel for each other in a mutual way even if it doesn't always meet. *Hinata's exchanges with Naruto seem far more light-hearted on Naruto's part, and that makes the difference*.



I assume when you say subtle, you are referring to a romantic relationship between Naruto and Sakura, because their friendship is obvious.  Look, with the ambiguousness of this so called romantic development there comes a point when you have to say that "subtle" has become "not really there".  I thought that because Kishimoto doesn't have time for protracted romance in this story that he had to make romance obvious?



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Excuse me if I think romantic potential is well seated in mutually developed relationships that show up during 200+ chapters.



Mutually developed relationship, i agree.  But it's a mutually developed *friendship*.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 28, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> 1. It wasn't selfish.  Again, you're applying negative spin to something that is meant to be seen positively.  I also find it slightly odd that you believe Hinata when she says she is being selfish, but not when she says she loves Naruto.



I never said I didn't think Hinata loved Naruto  I'm not one of those NaruSaku fans that took it as mere idolage even if the admiration complex is definitely there.



> 2. Kishimoto chose Hinata.  Make of that what you like.



So, Kishimoto choose Naruto for Sasuke and Sasuke for Naruto a million times, oh, but that's cos it's shounen 

I can see Hinata being used as a plot device, and unlike what you think, being a Hinata _fan_ I didn't like such excuse at all. Just cos I'm against a pairing doesn't mean I hate the characters for biased reasons. I can despise Sasuke and I'm a SasuNaru fan.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Sakura didn't disapprove, at least not for the reason that you seem to be suggesting.  Sakura disapproved because she doesn't want to see one of her friends injured or killed, not because Hinata tried to defend Naruto or because she confessed to him.  Sakura doesn't know that Hinata confessed, so how can she disapprove?



*Spoiler*: __ 



Oh so now you KNOW why Sakura disapproved ? I'd like to see the panel that says that. When I said disapproved I was referring to how Hinata almost got herself killed butting into Naruto's battle. It's not the first time she scolds Hinata for fretting over Naruto.





> And from that bolded comment i think you're straying into bashing territory there, and i suspect that's where your feelings against this pairing really come from.



I can also mention how I find Sasuke egotistic and Sakura bitchy even if I like those characters. Hinata is not perfect.



> Hmm, if it were me, i would apprieciate the fact that someone was willing to die for me.  Put it this way, which is better; Naruto dying or Naruto having his feelings hurt?  She's putting his physical safety above his feelings, which is pretty sensible if you ask me.  The fact she's willing to intervene when she knows she's no match proves the strength of her feelings.  She has to try, she's afraid of losing him.



*Spoiler*: __ 




Naruto wouldn't have died. Pein can't take his bijuu out until last. He wasn't giving Naruto any final blow. Naruto needs to learn how to use his brain, not explode, cos if you didn't see what Minato said, it _shouldn't_ happen again.





> Agin, this is boiling down to how Hinata's feelings are seen.  Sorry for those people who think i'm focusing too much on Hinata's feelings, but until it is accepted that these feelings come from a positive and thematically backed up place, i can't drop it.
> 
> Hinata's feelings have been positively portrayed throughout this story, and especially in 437.



That's not the point whether they're positively themed or not. It doesn't mean they're perfect. Naruto's feelings for Sasuke are not perfect, why should Hinata's for Naruto be.



> And as far as "out of nowhere" goes, again i would have to disagree.  Whenever we have had Hinata in this story, her feelings towards Naruto have been highlighted.  In the actual battle between Pain and Naruto, Kishimoto showed us the concern Hinata had, and almost had her going to him.



Showing concern and being a developed character or having a relation with said interest are two different things.



> Furthermore, considering what we had been given by Kishimoto, the only other person for whom such a gesture in that part of the story wouldn't have been "out of nowhere" would have been Shikamaru, but he was broken.  We weren't shown concern for Naruto or willingness to help Naruto from anyone other than Hinata or Shikamaru.



Oh yeah. Sakura definitely doesn't have special concern to help Naruto in ways unlike others based on literary evidence.

"Out of no where" isn't merely what is suggested by her character, but the purpose that the action was performed on. If it really is "out of no where", then everything I said about Hinata being too warped by Naruto without knowing him better isn't changing.



> And compare Hinata's sacrifice to the one Naruto made for Tsunade back in part 1.  On all counts, Naruto knew less about Tsunade than Hinata does about Naruto, and yet was still willing to protect her.  Are you arguing that was out of nowhere?



He was involved with Tsunade in the fight and was tied to her by a promise . Let alone it wasn't the same level of adversary and he's the main character - the sequence had no abrupt feeling about it.



> Your objections seem to rest totally on the confession part of Hinata's character and the feelings that Hinata has for Naruto.  To be honest, i think that because of your dislike for Hinata, your arguments are based on devaluing her as a character and purposefully reading scenes in that way instead of taking what the author is obviously trying to portray into account.



Lmao. Tell yourself that while I try to go back and change my natural reaction.



> But something did become of Naruto admitting how he felt to Hinata.  His view of her changed.  And i'm not arguing about SasuSaku.



Also Sasuke's view of Sakura changed. Doesn't mean he's intrigued by her in a significant way for romance.



> I assume when you say subtle, you are referring to a romantic relationship between Naruto and Sakura, because their friendship is obvious.



Yeah, soooooooooo obvious.



> Look, with the ambiguousness of this so called romantic development there comes a point when you have to say that "subtle" has become "not really there". * I thought that because Kishimoto doesn't have time for protracted romance in this story that he had to make romance obvious?*
> 
> Mutually developed relationship, i agree.  But it's a mutually developed *friendship*.



Says who? I guess SasuNaru really isn't there either, oh well. Ambiguity and characters commenting on such bonds is irrelevant when one-sided romance comes in.


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 28, 2009)

The real problem of all anti narusaku fans is that they cannot see beyond actual situation in manga. They are only basing on the panels. It is obvious that NaruSaku relationships reach far deeper than that. Their mutual feelings are still developing and people should see that even if in panels not everything was shown, still it's still out there, a little masked but is there for sure. The time will reveal this feelings for you in panels if you cannot understand true development of love.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 28, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I never said I didn't think Hinata loved Naruto  I'm not one of those NaruSaku fans that took it as mere idolage even if the admiration complex is definitely there.



Okay, now we're getting somewhere.  You think that Hinata has an admiration *complex*.  I'm just trying to get to the root of why you think her feelings are negative.  Please, qualify the reasons you think it's a complex.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> So, Kishimoto choose Naruto for Sasuke and Sasuke for Naruto a million times, oh, but that's cos it's shounen



Yeah, Kishimoto chose to have important moments between Sasuke and Naruto.  The result of those was strengthening their bond.  In this case Kishimoto has chosen to have an important moment that involves Hinata.  You're kind of proving my point, the fact that he chose to include those characters in those important scenes does mean something.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I can see Hinata being used as a plot device, and unlike what you think, being a Hinata _fan_ I didn't like such excuse at all. Just cos I'm against a pairing doesn't mean I hate the characters for biased reasons. I can despise Sasuke and I'm a SasuNaru fan.



No, you think its a plot device because you don't think there will be a follow up to this.  If there is no follow up then it was a plot device for the Kyuubi transformation.  If there is follow up then the scene will have been for more than just KN6.  Don't dismiss it, because if you're a real fan of Hinata, this route would elevate that scene above the level of plot device.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so now you KNOW why Sakura disapproved ? I'd like to see the panel that says that. When I said disapproved I was referrring to how Hinata almost got herself killed butting into Naruto's battle. It's not the first time she scolds Hinata for fretting over Naruto.



She's not scolding Hinata for fretting over Naruto... Sakura doesn't mention Naruto.  She says "Don't ever try anything crazy like that again".  She's talking about facing an opponent like Pain in single combat.  And Hinata was not "butting in".  "Buttin in" implies that Naruto and Pain were in the middle of fighting.  Naruto was down and out, were you expecting him to get up?  If so, how?



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I can also mention how I find Sasuke egotistic and Sakura bitchy even if I like those characters. Hinata is not perfect.



Agreed, so what about Hinata's character *do* you like?



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, so what do you think that Hinata should have done?  Tell me how Naruto would have escaped or what would have happened if Pain had taken Naruto away.  Do you seriously believe that once Pain had gone, anyone from Konoha would have been able to get him back?  Naruto has had enough trouble with Pain even after going KN6.  If Naruto had been taken away, that would have been the end of it.

Look at it another way.  You're Hinata.  The person you love is trapped, unable to move, and about to be taken away to god knows where.  You can step in now, and try in a hopeless situation, or do nothing and watch him go.  If you really do understand that Hinata does love Naruto like you say, then how is Hinata going to choose the second option?



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> That's not the point whether they're positively themed or not. It doesn't mean they're perfect. Naruto's feelings for Sasuke are not perfect, why should Hinata's for Naruto be.



It does matter if they are positively themed because it gives an idea of what the author thinks of them and therefore where he is going with them.  Obviously none of these feelings are perfect, but what does that matter?  Nothing is perfect...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Showing concern and being a *developed character* or having a relation with said interest are two different things.



Are you arguing that because Hinata is a secondary character she can't be in a romantic relationship with Naruto?  Because she is definitely a developed character.  Definitely more so than certain other members of the rookie nine.  I mean, i love Shino but we've been given nothing in terms of his motivations or dreams in comparison to Hinata.

Primary characters are obviously going to get more development, but why does that mean their feelings mean more, or that the main character pairings have more of a chance?  Like i've said, Hinata's development on the Naruto front has been good enough to prove that she loves him and now she has confessed, what is preventing their relationship from developing?  The fact she is a secondary character?



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Oh yeah. Sakura definitely doesn't have special concern to help Naruto in ways unlike others based on literary evidence.
> 
> "Out of no where" isn't merely what is suggested by her character, but the purpose that the action was performed on. If it really is "out of no where", then everything I said about Hinata being too warped by Naruto without knowing him better isn't changing.



I don't understand... but i've said that everything that has happened hasn't been out of nowhere...

And "warped"?  Again, like the "complex", you're gonna have to back that up...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> He was involved with Tsunade in the fight and was tied to her by a promise . Let alone it wasn't the same level of adversary and he's the *main character* - the sequence had no abrupt feeling about it.



Ahhhh, it *is* about main characters having to be the focus.  I understand now.  And completely disagree.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Also Sasuke's view of Sakura changed. Doesn't mean he's intrigued by her in a significant way for romance.



Maybe not, but you were arguing that there was no impact on Naruto and i proved that there was.  It was development.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Says who? I guess SasuNaru really isn't there either, oh well. *Ambiguity and characters commenting on such bonds* is irrelevant when one-sided romance comes in.



Ambiguity isn't irrelevant at all.  I'm using that ambiguity to suggest that this supposed "romantic development" between Naruto and Sakura isn't really there.  By its very nature, using the word ambiguity gives me license to do that.

Of course, should any more concrete proof be produced, those ambigous moments might mean something.  But they haven't, so they're not.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 28, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> And many characters might have encouraged him to react, but to who else has he admitted that he isn't as strong as he makes himself out to be?


Sakura, Jiraiya, and Yamato.  I think Kakashi did it too.



XXXTurkey said:


> Finally, using the fact that she didn't approach him when they were younger to prove she isn't close to him now is stretching things a little.  And we know she had issues with self-worth and confidence, is it really so hard to understand why it might have been hard for her to approach him then?


Okay, here's the deffinition of acknowledge:
To show or express recognition or relization.
When did she _show_ recognition before the Chuunin Exams?



XXXTurkey said:


> Naruto hasn't opened up to her in the same way as he did for Hinata.  In that scene, Naruto and Sakura are hurt because of Sasuke, and don't gain any further understanding of each other.  She already knows that Naruto really wants Sasuke back, and Naruto already knows Sakura wants to get him back too.  It's a team 7 moment, proved by the fact that Sai then steps in and offers his support and Naruto thanks him for his words, and not Sakura.  Naruto says *nothing* in response to Sakura's words.


He said, "Thanks a lot, guys."  He's talking to both of them.



XXXTurkey said:


> And what about Sakura's tears in that scene?  What are they for?


Instead of worrying about herself, she thinks about how Naruto feels.  Sound relevant enough?



BruceLeefan said:


> Link removed
> You can say whatever you want.But we do know Hinata has been watching Naruto for *years*.


As the deffinition of acknowledge says, she has to _show_ it.



BruceLeefan said:


> If MainguyxMaingirl that is bound to happen,according to you,it should have more development in the beginning don't you think?But instead, Kishi decided to focus on OthermainguyxMaingirl in half of his story so far.


'Cause all cannon pairings start out fine?  It's called Wrong Guy First.



BruceLeefan said:


> Without the love confession huh?ch 434, read it.


How is that any different from all the times Sakura showed concern for Naruto?  You keep saying all the NaruSaku moments are platonic, yet the same can be said of NaruHina.
How are Naruto's feelings for Sakura childish and stupid, yet Hinata's feelings for Naruto aren't?



Afalstein said:


> A number of these I can see, but some of them are stretching more than a few points.  Sakura warning of Naruto of danger and helping him learn chakra control is romantic?  Kakashi must be love with the kid, then.  Watching Naruto train is romantic?  Hinata has been doing that for years.  Making sure he's okay?  Shows concern, but doesn't imply anything further.


That's no different from all the NaruHina moments.  Well, Kakashi did say he loved Naruto.  Maybe he's gay.  Also, Hinata might have watched Naruto train, but Kakashi and Sakura have _helped_.  Actions speak louder than words.



Afalstein said:


> The others, I can see a little bit further, but they're all mostly in the framework of a team setting.  Generally, as I've said before, Sakura looks at Naruto in terms of their quest to return Sasuke.  Now, it's possible she's starting to look at him as something more.  But everyone is starting to see more to Naruto then they thought.  Heck, Pein is.  In my opinion, it's too little, too late.


And yet, it's never to late for Naruto to return Hinata's love?  Sakura has been acknowledging Naruto's strength ever since he kicked Haku's ass.  Hinata didn't start that until it became "cool" to support Naruto.  Where was Hinata when Naruto had no friends?  Sakura was one of the first people to exstend friendship towards him.  Is that the kind of girl Naruto needs?  One that isn't there when he needs her the most?



Afalstein said:


> I'm curious: what does "ZARU" mean?  Is it just a fun statement of yours or does it mean "Gotcha" in some language?


I really don't have a clue. 



Afalstein said:


> As for proving Hinata loved Naruto (without use of confession), even if we ignore the Chunin exam moments, we have her fainting when first meeting Naruto and expressing a hope to be acknowledged by Naruto during Three-Tails.  Granted, that's one-sided, but you're asking for proof that HINATA loves Naruto.  Even outside of the confession, it's well documented.


Malnourishment.  Someone get that girl a burger.
But, seriously, my point was that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are just as well documented.
"That's the girl I admire."
"I will protect Sakura-chan, no matter what!"
"Sakura-chan...you're...amazing."
You can't just refute NaruSaku, as NaruHina is in the same boat.



Afalstein said:


> Essentially, if she hadn't, Naruto would've gotten sucked away pretty quickly and ended up occupying a space in the "Sealing Statue."  Granted, her interference indirectly caused the emergence of the 6-8-9 tailed fox, which toasted what was left of the village, but she can't be blamed for that.  And the fact that he reacted so strongly to her (supposed) death, shows at the very least that he was VERY stirred by what happened.



Do you honestly believe Naruto couldn't have broken free in the _days_ it would have taken Pain to get him to Akatsuki central?  Or are you just refering to how Hinata percieved it?


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 28, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> The real problem of all anti narusaku fans is that they cannot see beyond actual situation in manga. They are only basing on the panels. It is obvious that* NaruSaku relationships *reach far deeper than that. Their mutual feelings are still developing and people should see that even if in panels not everything was shown, still it's still out there, a *little masked *but is there for sure. The time will reveal this feelings for you in panels* if you cannot understand true development of love*.


so off-panel something is going on between those two!
 so narusaku is there but i can't see it cos it's masked and i don't understand true development of love...


izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





*Spoiler*: __ 



well...at least she did something unlike sakura...


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 28, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> so off-panel something is going on between those two!
> so narusaku is there but i can't see it cos it's masked and i don't understand true development of love...



NaruSaku mutual feelings are much deeper than much people think. 
Anti -NaruSaku fans keep telling us that their relations aren't clear. That's right but only in panels. If we will look carefully at their relationship development we will see that between those two are a lot more feelings than it was shown in manga. That makes NaruSaku not obvious and also we have to divine the real point of this pairing to understand that if sth wasn't shown at panels, it doesn't mean there is nth more than this


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 28, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> NaruSaku mutual feelings are much deeper than much people think.
> *Anti -NaruSaku fans keep telling us that their relations aren't clear. That's right but only in panels*.* If we will look carefully at their relationship development we will see that between those two are a lot more feelings than it was shown in manga*. That makes NaruSaku not obvious and also we have to divine the real point of this pairing to understand that if sth wasn't shown at panels, *it doesn't mean there is nth more than this*


so narusaku is not clear in panels but is clear outside the manga which is made up by many panels...if it's not clear in the manga how can it be clear?
so the manga doesn't show that there are feelings between naruto and sakura but that means they are off-panel!
narusaku is canon but it is not in the manga...
please explain it to me again... i'm just a stupid sasusaku fangirl that uses way to much emoticos cos she's stupid... 
so i probably just got it wrong...


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 28, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Okay, now we're getting somewhere.  You think that Hinata has an admiration *complex*.  I'm just trying to get to the root of why you think her feelings are negative.  Please, qualify the reasons you think it's a complex.



What did I ever say that made complex sound negative? Even Naruto has an admiration complex towards Sasuke.

complex
8. 	a fixed idea; an obsessive notion.

Just cos I don't think Hinata's love is mature doesn't mean I think it's entirely negative and what not. I find her self-identification with Naruto goes too far.



> Yeah, Kishimoto chose to have important moments between Sasuke and Naruto.  The result of those was strengthening their bond.  In this case Kishimoto has chosen to have an important moment that involves Hinata.  You're kind of proving my point, the fact that he chose to include those characters in those important scenes does mean something.



Number of times and how makes a difference. And it was mutually gradual, not sudden.
*Spoiler*: __ 



 I find it really annoying how it took a suicide act for her to confess to Naruto.





> No, you think its a plot device because you don't think there will be a follow up to this.  If there is no follow up then it was a plot device for the Kyuubi transformation.  If there is follow up then the scene will have been for more than just KN6.  Don't dismiss it, because if you're a real fan of Hinata, this route would elevate that scene above the level of plot device.



Don't put words in my mouth please. Of course there will be a result but I don't think it will be romantic reciprocation. So?



> She's not scolding Hinata for fretting over Naruto... Sakura doesn't mention Naruto.  She says "Don't ever try anything crazy like that again".  She's talking about facing an opponent like Pain in single combat.  And Hinata was not "butting in".  "Buttin in" implies that Naruto and Pain were in the middle of fighting.  Naruto was down and out, were you expecting him to get up?  If so, how?



*Spoiler*: __ 



The translation I read said "You shouldn't have done that".


Like I said before, Naruto needs to use his brain and not explode. That is how he defeated Gaara.



> Agreed, so what about Hinata's character *do* you like?



Her desire to change by taking Naruto as an example.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so what do you think that Hinata should have done?  Tell me how Naruto would have escaped or what would have happened if Pain had taken Naruto away.  Do you seriously believe that once Pain had gone, anyone from Konoha would have been able to get him back?  Naruto has had enough trouble with Pain even after going KN6.  If Naruto had been taken away, that would have been the end of it.



See above. You should tag btw.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Look at it another way.  You're Hinata.  The person you love is trapped, unable to move, and about to be taken away to god knows where.  You can step in now, and try in a hopeless situation, or do nothing and watch him go.  If you really do understand that Hinata does love Naruto like you say, then how is Hinata going to choose the second option?


I wouldn't have put that person's life as a toll.



> It does matter if they are positively themed because it gives an idea of what the author thinks of them and therefore where he is going with them.  Obviously none of these feelings are perfect, but what does that matter?  Nothing is perfect...



It's a question of comparison. With the author "thinks of them" you are basically supporting of Dr. Love Yamato.



> Are you arguing that because Hinata is a secondary character she can't be in a romantic relationship with Naruto?  Because she is definitely a developed character.  Definitely more so than certain other members of the rookie nine.  I mean, i love Shino but we've been given nothing in terms of his motivations or dreams in comparison to Hinata.



She is a developed character APART from Naruto. Sakura jumping to KN4, flashbacking a promise made for her sake and remembering who Naruto IS by being near to him isn't as comparable in a relationship sense.



> *Primary characters are obviously going to get more development, but why does that mean their feelings mean more, *or that the main character pairings have more of a chance?  Like i've said, Hinata's development on the Naruto front has been good enough to prove that she loves him and now she has confessed, what is preventing their relationship from developing?  The fact she is a secondary character?



What is important is what I said above.



> I don't understand... but i've said that everything that has happened hasn't been out of nowhere...



What I meant is that her stalking is still stalking. She hasn't been interacting with this guy like in the anime fillers.



> And "warped"?  Again, like the "complex", you're gonna have to back that up...



The admiration is what it is. Nothing to back up if you already know it yourself.



> Ahhhh, it *is* about main characters having to be the focus.  I understand now.  And completely disagree.



I didn't say that. I meant that Naruto is the main character who always does that for built up circumstances.



> Maybe not, but you were arguing that there was no impact on Naruto and i proved that there was.  It was development.



Oh great. So NaruSaku is _super_ developed in comparison.



> Ambiguity isn't irrelevant at all.  I'm using that ambiguity to suggest that this supposed "romantic development" between Naruto and Sakura isn't really there.  By its very nature, using the word ambiguity gives me license to do that.



NaruSaku is just as ambiguous as SasuNaru. And that means it's pretty OUT THERE. You're not proving anything for NaruHina over NaruSaku just cos Hinata put the word "love" there. Characters are not going to realize everything immediately or out loud. NaruSaku has just enough development now to tip over romantically if Kishi has been planning it. That is why being AMBIGUOUS makes it just as valid as a ONE-SIDED relationship, if not more.



> Of course, should any more concrete proof be produced, those ambigous moments might mean something.  *But they haven't, so they're not.*



Yeah, sure. Let the manga finish at least 



cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> well...at least she did something unlike sakura...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Which is why Hinata's is still alive 


Blaming characters for circumstances they weren't involved in isn't evidence for a pairing.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 28, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I find it really annoying how it took a suicide act for her to confess to Naruto.



*Spoiler*: __ 



really?a shy girl who loved a boy for so long is willing to die for him....she confesses only to prove her feelings were not conditioned... she just loves him that's all! she asks for nothing in return...
real love is when nothing is looked for in return IMHO! hinata knew that she won't survive,she just wanted naruto to see her even if it was just for a moment!





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> The translation I read said "You shouldn't have done that".



*Spoiler*: __ 



yeah hinata should care about herself the most...but it's not her fault taht naruto holds the first place in her heart...







> Her desire to change by taking Naruto as an example.


well why did she took naruto as an example?
kishi kept hinata's feelings ambiguous too until this recent events!there was more than admiration from hinata's part...it was love! 



> I didn't say that. I meant that Naruto is the main character who always does that for built up circumstances.


so if naruto is the main character he's the only one that counts...




> Oh great. So NaruSaku is _super_ developed in comparison.


yeah but not in the panels



> NaruSaku is just as ambiguous as SasuNaru. And that means it's pretty OUT THERE. You're not proving anything for NaruHina over NaruSaku just cos Hinata put the word "love" there. Characters are not going to realize everything immediately or out loud. NaruSaku has just enough development now to tip over romantically if Kishi has been planning it. That is why being AMBIGUOUS makes it just as valid as a ONE-SIDED relationship, if not more.


hinata didn't realized it immediately!do you remember when she was fighting neji she was wondering why she watched naruto all that time!she was watching him cos she was in love!but she had no clue then 


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why Hinata's is still alive



*Spoiler*: __ 



then bravo sakura





> Blaming characters for circumstances they weren't involved in isn't evidence for a pairing.


that goes for you too


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 28, 2009)

Cuteyume don't answer my post if you're going to take it totally out of context 

XXXturkey asked me what I liked about Hinata so there is no need for you to interpret it as me saying Hinata doesn't love Naruto. 

There is no point of repeating the things I just countered with an explanation.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 28, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> well...at least she did something unlike sakura...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm getting sick of pointing this out: Sakura didn't know what was happening!  And Hinata didn't ask if Naruto was okay, Sakura did.  That's how stupid that statement sounds. 




I thought about how a date between Naruto and Hinata would go.  All I came up with was this:
Naruto: So, Hinata, are you having fun.
Hinata: Er...um...well,...Naruto-kun...
Naruto: Huh?  What is it, Hinata?  Speak up.
Hinata: Er...well...I...

Yeah, that's pure gold.


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 28, 2009)

Forlong said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting sick of pointing this out: Sakura didn't know what was happening!  And Hinata didn't ask if Naruto was okay, Sakura did.  That's how stupid that statement sounds.



*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm getting sick of pointing this out too!
when something just doesn't go well for narusaku is not a matter of will it was just ignorance!sakura did *not* know!you must have a hen brain to not realize that your "life long companion" is in danger and you got to go and  defend him  until the very end cos he's the love of your life!everybody knew that naruto was fighting pain! *everyone*!
_no_ sakura didn't knew!noooo she's so innocent!that hinata should have just died cos she did nothing for naruto!she hasn't asked if he is ok!sakura *did* taht!
see you are dicriminating hinata that's what you're doing my friend!
you are dicriminating her because ...
i'll stop here cos it'm getting it way too personal...





> I thought about how a date between Naruto and Hinata would go.  All I came up with was this:
> Naruto: So, Hinata, are you having fun.
> Hinata: Er...um...well,...Naruto-kun...
> Naruto: Huh?  What is it, Hinata?  Speak up.
> Hinata: Er...well...I...


yes because creating a stupid dialogue means debating!


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 28, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> so narusaku is not clear in panels but is clear outside the manga which is made up by many panels...if it's not clear in the manga how can it be clear?
> so the manga doesn't show that there are feelings between naruto and sakura but that means they are off-panel!
> narusaku is canon but it is not in the manga...
> please explain it to me again... i'm just a stupid sasusaku fangirl that uses way to much emoticos cos she's stupid...
> so i probably just got it wrong...



Not stupid just when people are getting a lot older and gain more life experience they can feel deeper meaning of feelings. Actually there is also deeper meaning of feelings. The same goes for manga pairing(if it's already developed enough to become sth more than friendship). In my opinion NaruSaku relations which developed from early beginning of the manga changed into sth really interesting. I can agree that Sakura's feelings are mixed and unclear because she is still thinking(in my opinion) about Sasuke. However she is caring very much about Naruto. As fo Naruto I think that he still wants to make Sakura happy and the reason why he is not trying anything serious for now is that he thinks that she still loves Sasuke. So he didn't want to force her to choose between him and his best friend/brother.
Of course in panels it wasn't shown as clearly romantic but in anime in my opinion it was shown that NaruSaku relationships are coming to sth more than friendship. Of course I know that my opinion can be wrong and different from many people but that's the way I feel about this pairing, adding my personal life experience in romantic ways(life is not manga but sometimes it's really close to it).


----------



## Miss Happy (Apr 28, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Not stupid just when people are getting a lot older and gain more life experience they can feel deeper meaning of feelings. Actually there is also deeper meaning of feelings. The same goes for manga pairing(if it's already developed enough to become sth more than friendship). In my opinion NaruSaku relations which developed from early beginning of the manga changed into sth really interesting. I can agree that Sakura's feelings are mixed and unclear because she is still thinking(in my opinion) about Sasuke. However she is caring very much about Naruto. *As fo Naruto I think that he still wants to make Sakura happy and the reason why he is not trying anything serious for now is that he thinks that she still loves Sasuke.* So he didn't want to force her to choose between him and his best friend/brother.
> *Of course in panels it wasn't shown as clearly romantic but in manga in my opinion it was shown that NaruSaku relationships are coming to sth more than friendship*. Of course I know that my opinion can be wrong and different from many people but that's the way I feel about this pairing, adding my personal life experience in romantic ways(life is not manga but sometimes it's really close to it).


if something is not presented in a manga panel it means it doesn't exist*.*
sakura still loves sasuke ...it's not *what* naruto is thinking!
everything nowadays comes with something more than friendship right!
the poor asexuals!they feel like they just don't belong to this world!


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 28, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> sakura still loves sasuke ...it's not *what* naruto is thinking!



It's what Sakura has been thinking which hasn't been addressed clearly, that's why Naruto can be seen ambiguously in relation to that.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 28, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Apparently, I didn't identify my sarcasm well.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I was pointing out how idiotic the statement sounded.  It was like saying Hinata doesn't care about Naruto because she didn't ask.
Sure everyone knew Naruto was fighting Pain, and Hinata was the only one who didn't go "all right, he can do it".  I'm not going to degrate Hinata's character.  She could see what was going on with Byakugan.  Sakura couldn't.  Hinata knew right away, when Naruto was pinned down.  How was Sakura supposed to know?




Sorry I didn't make that clear, I'm just tired of expaining it.


----------



## Louchan (Apr 28, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Haha, what?
The hell is that supposed to mean?
How are things _"not going well for NaruSaku"_?
And forgive me, but I've never seen any NaruSaku fans pulling any kind of _"Ignorance!Sakura"_ excuse that you speak of in any kind of situation ever.
How about explaining what you're talking about?
Because right now it just sounds like you're spewing out some shitty prejudice about NaruSaku fans.






cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> you must have a hen brain to not realize that your "life long companion" is in danger and you got to go and  defend him  until the very end cos he's the love of your life!



*Spoiler*: __ 



She knew he was fighting, yes.
She didn't know he at one point was losing and in serious danger, no.






cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> everybody knew that naruto was fighting pain! *everyone*!



*Spoiler*: __ 



*EVERYBODY* knew, yet *NOBODY* did anything!

Why?
Because Naruto had asked them not to.
And if they had, they would just have gotten in the way.
If you're blaming Sakura for not coming to Naruto's rescue _(even though she had no way of knowing that he was in serious danger)_ then you might as well blame every single man, woman, and child in Konoha.






cuteyume said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> _no_ sakura didn't knew!noooo she's so innocent!



*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes.
Sakura is not guilty of anything.
Hell, the girl was busy saving lives by healing all the injured victims!




-snip-


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 28, 2009)

Yeesh.  Two posts in a row deleted.  That's not a good sign.

I'm going to try to answer this question about Hinata's action.  I doubt anyone will be satisfied, but I feel the need to get it off my chest.

A selfish death, by definition, would be one purely for one's own benefit.  A suicide, for instance, could be considered incredibly selfish because it serves no purpose and simply makes everyone else feel bad.  The person avowedly does it because their life is so awful.  So their action is based entirely on thoughts of their own well-being, and everyone else feels terrible because they never did anything to make it any better.

I apologize if anyone is offended by that, I'm skipping through a lot of stuff on this debate for the sake of time.

So now.  Analyzing Hinata's confession scene, from one stance.  You could say that it didn't serve any point, Hinata knew she was outmatched. She definitely went in with the knowledge that she'd be likely to die. And you could say her confession served no point except to make Naruto feel really awful. She called her action selfish herself, which strengthens the point.

But.  From the other side.

First of all, her actions WEREN'T pointless.  I've heard people argue that Naruto probably could have escaped somehow along the trip to Akatsuki, but considering Gaara's experience, as well as the fact that Pein only needs to take him to wherever they can use the Summoning Statue, I'd say he would've been pretty screwed if Hinata hadn't showed up.  Certainly the manga suggests that he would've been, Naruto is pretty helpless.  And Hinata jumps in JUST as Pein is saying they need to leave.  It's one of those "darkest before dawn" moments.  Yes, Naruto should've found a way outside of the six-tails.  But he certainly didn't seem to be getting anywhere, either because Pein was depressing him too much, or simply because there wasn't anything to do.

Now, you could say that Hinata might've considered her actions pointless.  But that doesn't necessarily follow.  She says "not afraid to die protecting you."  Whether she thought Naruto might be able to escape in the interim, or whether she had some wild hope of disabling Pein, it doesn't necessarily follow that she thought her death would be meaningless. And she doesn't really TRY to die, I mean, it's not like she just stands there.  Granted, she's still horribly out of her league, but against anybody else, she might've been able to do something.

Secondly, Hinata is NOT doing this to make everyone else feel bad.  I could see where people might say that, but I don't see that as the case.  She's not wailing or berating Naruto here, feeding him sob stories or what have you.  She's speaking very plainly and simply.  She's not even looking to see how he reacts. 

This is the sense in which Hinata's action is "selfish."  She's not doing it for the effect it will have on anyone's view of her.  She's not doing it so Naruto will pay attention to her.  She's doing it because she can't do anything else.  Ko Hyuuga, the one person she's saving, tells her he couldn't forgive himself if anything happened to her, and it's much the same case with her and Naruto.  She just can't live with herself if Naruto dies.

The reason she's telling all Naruto this is because she's probably going to die.  It's like battlefield confessions time.  Sorta like when Lisa Hayes goes to Rick Hunter just before the battle, to tell him she loves him.  (right in front of Rick's girlfriend).  Lisa considered that "selfish" too, but did it because she might never see him again.  It's a load she needed to get off her chest.

And thirdly, this isn't just about her well-being, obviously.  It's about Naruto's, too.  Even if logically she knows that she doesn't stand a chance against Pein, there's a difference between knowing that and standing by.  Some people have suggested that if Sakura had seen things, she would've run in herself.  I imagine almost anyone would have, actually.  Hyuuga and Ko just happened to be the only ones that knew about it.  In fact, just after Hinata jumps down there, we see Ko yelling after her, wanting to jump down and save her.  Does he stand any better chance against Pein?  Probably not.  But if his leg hadn't been shattered, he would've done the same for Hinata as Hinata did for Naruto.

Also, this is Japan.  Japanese kamikazes have a long and noble history.  Giving your life in defense of your country (or unidentified group of loved ones) is considered noble, even if you fail in the attempt.  Kishi is tapping into that here.

So ultimately, I would say that Hinata's action is not selfish.  It's maybe the most fulfilling thing her character has ever done.  As I've said before, if she HAD died there, I would've been sad, but it would've been a fitting end.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 28, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> What did I ever say that made complex sound negative? Even Naruto has an admiration complex towards Sasuke.
> 
> complex
> 8. 	a fixed idea; an obsessive notion.
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Okay, Hinata's love is positive but not mature?  I would have to disagree.  Going back to the whole understanding issue, Hinata doesn't idolise Naruto, she knows his faults and has built a love for him despite those faults.  She's taken inspiration from his  efforts and applied it to her own, a trait that you like in her.  Most importantly, she has defended Naruto with her life.  I would say that selflessness is a very mature emotion.

To put the ball back in your court, how is Hinata's love *immature?*






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Number of times and how makes a difference. And it was mutually gradual, not sudden.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'll say it again, it really wasn't sudden.  Hinata had wanted to get into the battle from the time she saw Naruto fighting Pain.  Once he was down it made sense for that to be the trigger for Hinata to jump in.  You've admitted that she loves him, so doesn't it actually make *sense* for her character, as it has been portrayed, to have done what she did?






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Don't put words in my mouth please. Of course there will be a result but I don't think it will be romantic reciprocation. So?



Interesting.  So why will he not reciprocate her romantically?  I'm not arguing that he'll say "I love you", but why wouldn't he agree to date her? (though perhaps after all this is over).  A while back i said that i don't believe Naruto is pursuing Sakura romantically and i can pull up my arguments again if you want.  And as you've admitted, Sakura's feelings on this subject are ambiguous *at best*.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



The gist of each translation is the same.  Sakura doesn't know about Hinata's confession so she can't be disapproving of it.  What else can her words mean?  That she was worried about Hinata.  And i don't entirely understnad the point you are making about Naruto...






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> See above. You should tag btw.
> 
> *I wouldn't have put that person's life as a toll.*
> 
> It's a question of comparison. *With the author "thinks of them"* you are basically supporting of Dr. Love Yamato.



Whoops, i am doing now...

Er, what?  Is the bolded actually english?  Sorry, i can't understand it.  Maybe i'm just tired but could you put it a different way?

Do you mean *when* the author thinks of them?  I would have to disagree with that because as you've said, all of the supposed "romantic" moments that "support" NaruSaku are ambiguous.  We don't know what the author is thinking and so therefore cannot draw any definitive conclusions from those scenes about what he thinks about the idea of love between the two of them.  In comparison, Hinata's undeniable *love* is positively portrayed in every instance that it arises.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> She is a developed character APART from Naruto. Sakura jumping to KN4, flashbacking a promise made for her sake and remembering who Naruto IS by being near to him isn't as comparable in a relationship sense.



I'm not saying Naruto and Sakura didn't bond over those instances, i'm just saying they weren't romantic.  Isn't that what we are discussing?  We both know that Sakura is going to get more friendship development with Naruto, but in terms of romantic development, or even one sided romantic thought or contemplation there is little to none.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> What I meant is that her stalking is still stalking. She hasn't been interacting with this guy like in the anime fillers.



This is the definition of stalking that i've found:

-The crime of following or harassing another person, causing him or her to fear death or injury.

What Hinata was doing was *watching*.  And they have had interaction, but i'd be repeating myself.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> The admiration is what it is. Nothing to back up if you already know it yourself.



Exactly, her admiration is a positive thing.  It has inspired her to improve herself.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I didn't say that. I meant that Naruto is the main character who always does that for built up circumstances.




*Spoiler*: __ 



And Hinata defended Naruto for built up circumstances.  She loves him (which you don't dispute) and she had been shown to be watching and be worried about him (which is indisputable).






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Oh great. So NaruSaku is _super_ developed in comparison.



You were arguing that Naruto and Hinata's bond hadn't been developed at all so i provided you with proof that it had.  And NaruSaku is "super developed", but in terms of *friendship*, not romance.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> NaruSaku is just as ambiguous as SasuNaru. And that means it's pretty OUT THERE. You're not proving anything for NaruHina over NaruSaku just cos Hinata put the word "love" there. Characters are not going to realize everything immediately or out loud. NaruSaku has just enough development now to tip over romantically if Kishi has been planning it. That is why being AMBIGUOUS makes it just as valid as a ONE-SIDED relationship, if not more.



Actually, the word "love" is important because it provides everything needed from Hinata's side.  And i'm not saying that NaruSaku can't happen and if it did, all those ambiguous moments would turn out to be foreshadowing.  However, at the moment, with no follow up provided thus far, we have no obvious romance in terms of NaruSaku.

Conversely, we have one side of the relationship cemented in terms of NaruHina.  And considering my points on Naruto's supposed "romantic interest" in Sakura, and the ambiguity of Sakura's developing "romantic" feelings there is not yet any reason to believe that Naruto wont give Hinata a chance.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Yeah, sure. Let the manga finish at least



Sorry, i meant it to read:

But they haven't, *yet*.  So they're not, *yet*.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> Instead of worrying about herself, she thinks about how Naruto feels. Sound relevant enough?



So Sasuke's just escaped again and Sakura starts crying because Naruto is upset?  You can't just delete Sakura's feelings for Sasuke...  Where is the evidence she's given up on him?

Naruto is not getting Sasuke back just for Sakura and Sakura is not getting Sasuke back for Naruto.  They both want him back for their own reasons.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 28, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't understand why I have to keep spelling this out to you. I don't believe she knows Naruto more than Sakura - therefore - will see it accordingly whether her "watching" skills are amazing or not. Even Iruka could see Naruto never gave up despite his faults by observing him as his student, but he connected to Naruto on a far closer level through a sequence of mutual actions that continue throughout the entire friggen manga.


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I'll say it again, it really wasn't sudden.  Hinata had wanted to get into the battle from the time she saw Naruto fighting Pain.  Once he was down it made sense for that to be the trigger for Hinata to jump in.  You've admitted that she loves him, so doesn't it actually make *sense* for her character, as it has been portrayed, to have done what she did?



*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata can die how many times she wants for Naruto
but not in the name of utter true love.
People seem to not know what a love relationship is. It is built on mutual development. Even I "loved" a guy I observed carefully; thinking I knew him and all that jazz, feeling I could do anything for him. Was it comparable to love born from mutual development...NO.





> Interesting.  So why will he not reciprocate her romantically?



Cos if Naruto isn't gay for Sasuke there is little doubting that he loves Sakura, no matter HOW sucky it looks.



> A while back i said that i don't believe Naruto is pursuing Sakura romantically and i can pull up my arguments again if you want.



Try again plz. He still asks dates.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> The gist of each translation is the same.  *Sakura doesn't know about Hinata's confession so she can't be disapproving of it.*  What else can her words mean?  That she was worried about Hinata.  And i don't entirely understnad the point you are making about Naruto...



*Spoiler*: __ 



That's not the point. She saw the extent Hinata went for Naruto which was enough to awaken something inside her.





> Er, what?  Is the bolded actually english?  Sorry, i can't understand it.  Maybe i'm just tired but could you put it a different way?



Yes it was articulated English.

toll = tax



> Do you mean *when* the author thinks of them?  I would have to disagree with that because as you've said, all of the supposed "romantic" moments that "support" NaruSaku are ambiguous.  We don't know what the author is thinking and so therefore cannot draw any definitive conclusions from those scenes about what he thinks about the idea of love between the two of them.  *In comparison, Hinata's undeniable love is positively portrayed in every instance that it arises.*



What the helk does positivity have to do with NaruSaku being ambiguous? Naru<--Hina simply had 437 to categorize its actions. Doesn't prove it will succeed.



> I'm not saying Naruto and Sakura didn't bond over those instances, i'm just saying they weren't romantic.  Isn't that what we are discussing?  We both know that Sakura is going to get more friendship development with Naruto, but in terms of romantic development, or even one sided romantic thought or contemplation there is little to none.



WTH? So if NaruHina didn't have 437 then NaruSaku could go on and on just like you are doing about how NaruHina isn't romantic.


> This is the definition of stalking that i've found:
> 
> -The crime of following or harassing another person, causing him or her to fear death or injury.
> 
> What Hinata was doing was *watching*.  And they have had interaction, but i'd be repeating myself.



This is the definition of stalking I found: _to pursue (game, a person, etc.) stealthily._

Interaction doesn't equal amazingly significant development.



> Exactly, her admiration is a positive thing.  It has inspired her to improve herself.



*Spoiler*: __ 



And commit a suicidal act in Naruto's name.





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And Hinata defended Naruto for built up circumstances.  She loves him (which you don't dispute) and she had been shown to be watching and be worried about him (which is indisputable).


Concern was built up but the pretension was absurd. And before you ask me what I'm talking about I mean her pretexts to perform such action.



> You were arguing that Naruto and Hinata's bond hadn't been developed at all so i provided you with proof that it had.  And NaruSaku is "super developed", but in terms of *friendship*, not romance.



"hadn't been developed at all" is a hyberbole ignoring what I actually meant.

NaruHina is super developed for neither friendship NOR romance! 
*Spoiler*: __ 



You think Naruto is going to suddenly go OMG!1!! HINATA! NOW I THINK ILU 2 COS U PROTECTED ME OUT OF ROMANTIC LOVE!!





> Actually, the word "love" is important because it provides everything needed from Hinata's side.  And i'm not saying that NaruSaku can't happen and if it did, all those ambiguous moments would turn out to be foreshadowing.  However, at the moment, with no follow up provided thus far, we have no obvious romance in terms of NaruSaku.



One-side love confessions make love _so_ obvious. Mutual love which is given probable hints of repression ain't got nothing on it; who needs foreshadowing or development?? SS/NH 4ever!



> Conversely, we have one side of the relationship cemented in terms of NaruHina.  And considering my points on Naruto's supposed "romantic interest" in Sakura, and the ambiguity of Sakura's developing "romantic" feelings there is not yet any reason to believe that Naruto wont give Hinata a chance.



OK


----------



## Hikui (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm sure having fun now, debating you is fun. 



Forlong said:


> By that logic, Hinata encouraging Naruto before his fight with Neji doesn't count as a NaruHina hint!  He wasn't cheering her up because she wasn't depressed!  And he was using phrases you don't normally use for "just friends".



Hint? Why are you bringing up this argument? If you consider any romantic interaction, even when they're one-sided, there are hints for both pairings. If you consider mutual romantic interaction then there are NO HINTS for any pairing in Naruto, at all. It might be a hint that NaruHina can work, or is a positive relationship (yadda, yadda) but not a hint that NaruHina will become canon. 

If you want to consider Naruto's: "Sakura you're awesome" as romantic then you must consider Naruto cheering Hinata in her fight, and telling her "the people like you, I really like" as romantic moments from Naruto's side. But they aren't (strictly on that sense). 

As for regarding Hinata's speech as "platonic" you could be right in the sense that the speech was 'platonic' but you cannot deny that her feelings for him are romantic. And by that logic, only confessions would be considered romantic....




Forlong said:


> Sakura is in 6th place with over 9,000 votes.  Not that it's all that important.



I don't think it is. There's still a very big gap between Sakura's importance to the plot and Hinata's. By the number of her appearances she should be like in the perhaps the 15th-30th gap. 

And character popularity is not that important, last time I checked Naruhina was more popular than NaruSaku. (and it means nothing)



Forlong said:


> I was refuting a claim that it was totally platonic.  I don't need that scene to proove Naruto loves Sakura, that's already a given.



Yeah, whenever he blushes is not strictly platonic from his part. But just because he has a crush on Sakura doesn't make all of their interactions "romantic". 

Is this very same fact, that Sakura shares a close friendship bond with Naruto that is hard to tell whenever something is romantic or not. 



Forlong said:


> Dating is hanging out.


So every time I hang out with my female friends, I'm dating them, right? 




Forlong said:


> I'm sorry, you apparently don't get it.  Boys can fall in love at that age, but they don't think about who they're going to marry!



I'm sorry, I was referring to some people's claim that Naruto felt trulub for Sakura because he said so in Chapter 3. I was generalizing. 

Then again, so if Naruto fell in love with Sakura...when did it become trulub? (there's definitely a difference). 



Forlong said:


> Then there are also absolutely 0 romantic moments between Naruto and Hinata.  There isn't even a hint of mutual feelings between Naruto and Hinata.  At least I've been able to find indications that Sakura might feel the same way for Naruto.  Hell, _KISHIMOTO_ says it outright in the databook: "Sakura is unsure about how she feels about Naruto".  Can you find any indication that Naruto has ever looked at Hinata as more than a friend?



There are also 0 MUTUAL romantic moments between Sakura and Naruto. And yes, you have found indications that Sakura might feel the same way but I haven't (along with thousands of others). 

Again, I don't debate Databooks. Hell, they said Ino felt something near to trulub for Sasuke...right.  

And yeah, Naruto has not looked at Hinata like more than a friend before, but now that she confessed it's inevitable. By this I don't mean he'll fall in love with her instantly, but that he now will be forced to see her in a different light. (Like some people claim Sakura is looking at Naruto). 



M4verick said:


> Debatable, depends how you looks at it really.
> 
> Naruto needs to eat to be able to bring back Sasuke, and what does Naruto mainly eat? Ramen.  Naruto trains hard because he wants to be Hokage.  Hokage is his vision which comes first.  Than he puts forth the work to achieve his vision.


I guess...I agree? Lol.



M4verick said:


> Seriously, these are top 5, I never said the end all above all points now did I?  Than again, I guess I never said top 5, oh well.



Yep, you never said top 5. 



Forlong said:


> 'Cause all cannon pairings start out fine?  It's called Wrong Guy First.



Are you seriously using that argument? 

I have some problems as to why that isn't the case. 

1) Sakura isn't the main character, that would be Naruto. (So in that sense, Sakura was first, Hinata is second? Hence Naruhina will be cannon? )

2) Sakura didn't start with two suitors, Sasuke never pursued her romantically. 

3) Sakura was never happy for a while with Sasuke because they never had a romantic relationship. 

4) Naruto didn't console Sakura because Sasuke 'left her', instead he promised her: "I'll bring him back". 



> Why does the young woman choose the wrong guy first? Because if she picked the right guy first, there wouldn't be a plot.



5) Naruto isn't a manga about romance (and definitely doesn't need it to make the plot move further), so there's no excuse to throw this scenario (like it is stated). 

Though, it could be Betty or Veronica now but I just don't think so. To me is more like . :amazed

@Afalstein: Your post is made of win.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 28, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I don't understand why I have to keep spelling this out to you. I don't believe she knows Naruto more than Sakura - therefore - will see it accordingly whether her "watching" skills are amazing or not. Even Iruka could see Naruto never gave up despite his faults by observing him as his student, but he connected to Naruto on a far closer level through a sequence of mutual actions that continue throughout the entire friggen manga.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





But i'm not saying Hinata knows Naruto more than Sakura.  I've admitted that Sakura has had more time with Naruto to get to know him.  I just believe that Hinata knows enough about Naruto for her love to be justified.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I was arguing that Hinata loves Naruto.  But to address your point, your view of a loving relationship isn't entirely true.  There's such a thing as unconditional love.  And "unrequited love" is still love.  The hint is in the name.  True, the two of them (Naruto and Hinata) aren't in a relationship but then neither are Naruto and Sakura and that's the only way we can be 100% assured of mutuality.  Furthermore, we haven't seen Naruto's reaction to Hinata yet, therefore NaruHina's mutuality (or lack of) isn't confirmed yet.






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Cos if Naruto isn't gay for Sasuke there is little doubting that he loves Sakura, no matter HOW sucky it looks.
> 
> Try again plz. He still asks dates.



I have addressed this.  These so called date requests are on the spur of the moment, with no planning, and usually preceded by him thinking about something completely different from Sakura and his supposed "love".

In the "date request" (which isn't actually a date request) on chapter 311, Naruto lies to Sakura by saying "I was just devising a plan for us to go on a walk, like a date".  Wheras in actuality he was "just" thinking about Sasuke.

Don't you think its odd that Naruto isn't ever honest with Sakura about his feelings, and yet we've seen Naruto open up to Hinata (and others, granted.  But not Sakura...).



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> That's not the point. She saw the extent Hinata went for Naruto which was enough to awaken something inside her.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Firstly, i think its kind of sad that Sakura would have to have Hinata confess her feelings for her to realise her own.  But that's just my opinion if this scenario actually turns out to be the case, which i doubt.

More to the point "awaken something inside her"?  Her words: "Hinata, you must really love Naruto" come across in a similar way to the "Don't ever try anything crazy like that again".  Bear in mind Hinata had a serious injury and Sakura had to heal her, why wouldn't she have a serious face?  I see it as Sakura being impressed at the lengths Hinata would go to to protect Naruto.  But however anyone interprets it, its open to interpretation.  Again, it's ambiguous...






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Yes it was articulated English.
> 
> toll = tax



Sorry, still don't understand... "I wouldn't have put that persons life as a tax"?

Can't you explain it more simply?  Please.  Thanks. 



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> What the helk does positivity have to do with NaruSaku being ambiguous? Naru<--Hina simply had 437 to categorize its actions. Doesn't prove it will succeed.



I was arguing that the portrayal of positivity gives us an insight into what the author thinks.  We've got to remember this is a story.  I'm a history student and one of the major parts of my degree has been to analyse the writing of the source and the intent of the author as much as the material itself.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> WTH? So if NaruHina didn't have 437 then NaruSaku could go on and on just like you are doing about how NaruHina isn't romantic.



No, not really.  How were Hinata's feelings ambiguous?  You've already admitted that Sakura's are.  You've also admitted that Hinata loves Naruto.  I stand by what i said.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> This is the definition of stalking I found: _to pursue (game, a person, etc.) stealthily._



Okay, so we have different definitions.  How about looking at what the characters said?  Sakura said "She was always *watching* you?".  If we agree to a stalemate in terms of definitions (even if i don't think yours applies), our source material seems to disagree with your sentiment.  Hinata isn't a stalker.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Interaction doesn't equal amazingly significant development.



And if i apply this statement to NaruSaku?  They've had plenty of interaction, but no earth shaking development...

We know that after Naruto's various interactions with Hinata, she does change in his eyes and he admits to as much himself.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



What made the pretext absurd?  Like you've admitted, she loves Naruto.  She sees him in danger, trapped and unable to move.  She then performs an act that mirrors many of the others in this manga, protecting someone important to her.  Her act is no more suicidal than Shikamaru's in delaying the sound ninja in part 1 or Naruto's in protecting Tsunade or Sasuke's in protecting Naruto.  Suicide is a hopless act.  Conversely what Hinata's actions are an example of, along with the rest of the examples, is *sacrifice*.  There is a big difference.






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> "hadn't been developed at all" is a hyberbole ignoring what I actually meant.
> 
> *NaruHina is super developed for neither friendship NOR romance!*
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



When have i ever stated that i think that?  I've openly admitted that Naruto doesn't love Hinata.  What i'm arguing is that there is currently no visible reason for him not to give her a chance and accept her feelings.

But about the bolded... you don't even think Naruto and Hinata are friends?  And i don't entirely understand what you mean about "super developed" either.  Is it panel time that you need?  Because earlier you were arguing that:



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Interaction doesn't equal amazingly significant development.



So it has to be significant interaction?  Well then by this logic Naruto is more friends with Hinata than any of the other rookie nine then (excepting his team mates) because he has openly admitted to "liking people like her".

I guess i disagree with your apparent need for "super development".  Unless you were just making a needlessly sarcastic point about your view that Naruto and Hinata have had no development, in which case i disagree on that point too.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> One-side love confessions make love _so_ obvious. Mutual love which is given probable hints of repression ain't got nothing on it; who needs *foreshadowing or development*?? SS/NH 4ever!



Every pairing needs foreshadowing and development.  NaruHina has evidence for both, and i've given such evidence in support of said pairing.

Unless you can disprove what i've said, eventually you're gonna have to admit that my thoughts are at least a possibility.  If i can get you to at least admit that then i'll be happy.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 28, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> But i'm not saying Hinata knows Naruto more than Sakura.  I've admitted that Sakura has had more time with Naruto to get to know him.  I just believe that Hinata knows enough about Naruto for her love to be justified.



Who doesn't know Naruto was wretched from loneliness does NOT know Naruto. Period. That is why I don't think her feelings are as justified.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I was arguing that Hinata loves Naruto.  But to address your point, your view of a loving relationship isn't entirely true.  There's such a thing as unconditional love.  And "unrequited love" is still love.  The hint is in the name.  True, the two of them (Naruto and Hinata) aren't in a relationship but then neither are Naruto and Sakura and that's the only way we can be 100% assured of mutuality.  Furthermore, we haven't seen Naruto's reaction to Hinata yet, therefore NaruHina's mutuality (or lack of) isn't confirmed yet.



What does UNCONDITIONAL or UNREQUITTED love have to do with my claim that a love relationship requires mutual development??? What does it have to do with knowing someone or connecting with them on a mutual level? Even SasuSaku convinces me more when it comes to justified feelings.

Oh I can't wait until Naruto addresses it. A person cannot develop feelings for someone out of thin air. Which is why I find gratitude a safer assumption.



> I have addressed this.  These so called date requests are on the spur of the moment, with no planning, and usually preceded by him thinking about something completely different from Sakura and his supposed "love".



NaruSaku isn't about dates. They're just valid to suggest romantic inclination.



> In the "date request" (which isn't actually a date request) on chapter 311, Naruto lies to Sakura by saying "I was just devising a plan for us to go on a walk, like a date".  Wheras in actuality he was "just" thinking about Sasuke.
> 
> Don't you think its odd that Naruto isn't ever honest with Sakura about his feelings, and yet we've seen Naruto open up to Hinata (and others, granted.  But not Sakura...).



Once again, a person who doesn't say stuff either has nothing to say or is repressing something for significant reasons. I am not a NaruSaku fan but if I were to ignore NaruSasu then I would say he probably isn't too hopeful about being corresponded therefore doesn't give impression of serious pursuit.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, i think its kind of sad that Sakura would have to have Hinata confess her feelings for her to realise her own.  But that's just my opinion if this scenario actually turns out to be the case, which i doubt.



LoL. The usual Anti-NaruSaku "how disappointing it would be". 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura has nothing to realize _because_ Hinata confessed. She has something to realize that was already suggested, just like how Hinata was suggested to confess something sooner or later.





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> More to the point "awaken something inside her"?  Her words: *"Hinata, you must really love Naruto"* come across in a similar way to the "Don't ever try anything crazy like that again".  Bear in mind Hinata had a serious injury and Sakura had to heal her, why wouldn't she have a serious face?  I see it as Sakura being impressed at the lengths Hinata would go to to protect Naruto.  But however anyone interprets it, its open to interpretation.  Again, it's ambiguous...



It's a clamorously incorrect translation.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Her words were around this: "You were able to go so far for Naruto". She DIDN'T witness the confession.





> Sorry, still don't understand... "I wouldn't have put that persons life as a tax"?
> 
> Can't you explain it more simply?  Please.  Thanks.



*Spoiler*: __ 



I love you Naruto, all this time even if you hardly noticed, so watch me die in front of you.





> I was arguing that the portrayal of positivity gives us an insight into what the author thinks.



Then I wonder what the author thinks of SasuNaru ... /non sequitur



> We've got to remember this is a story.  I'm a history student and one of the major parts of my degree has been to analyse the writing of the source and the intent of the author as much as the material itself.



*still thinking about SasuNaru*



> No, not really.  How were Hinata's feelings ambiguous?  You've already admitted that Sakura's are.  You've also admitted that Hinata loves Naruto.  I stand by what i said.



Sakura wanting to do more for Naruto isn't ambiguous and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata never referred to love before 437.





> Okay, so we have different definitions.  How about looking at what the characters said?  Sakura said "She was always *watching* you?".  If we agree to a stalemate in terms of definitions (even if i don't think yours applies), our source material seems to disagree with your sentiment.  Hinata isn't a stalker.



I never said Hinata was a stalker and that's not the point when it comes to expressing one's self for general comprehension.



> And if i apply this statement to NaruSaku?  They've had plenty of interaction, but no earth shaking development...





No seriously, for that statement it was mandatory.



> We know that after Naruto's various interactions with Hinata, she does change in his eyes and he admits to as much himself.



Maybe cos Naruto already knew and had faith in Sakura 



> What made the pretext absurd?  Like you've admitted, she loves Naruto.  She sees him in danger, trapped and unable to move.  She then performs an act that mirrors many of the others in this manga, protecting someone important to her.



She flashbacked herself literally *watching* Naruto

I already told you what I had to say about justified feelings.



> Her act is no more suicidal than Shikamaru's in delaying the sound ninja in part 1 or Naruto's in protecting Tsunade or Sasuke's in protecting Naruto.  Suicide is a hopless act.  Conversely what Hinata's actions are an example of, along with the rest of the examples, is *sacrifice*.  There is a big difference.



Dying flaunting romantic pretentions isn't the same as dying for an ideal or comradeship.



> When have i ever stated that i think that?  I've openly admitted that Naruto doesn't love Hinata.  What i'm arguing is that there is currently no visible reason for him not to give her a chance and accept her feelings.



The visible reason is Sasuke Sakura whether you like it or not.



> But about the bolded... you don't even think Naruto and Hinata are friends?  And i don't entirely understand what you mean about "super developed" either.  Is it panel time that you need?  Because earlier you were arguing that:



NO. I need deep understanding and mutual influence, not panel time.



> So it has to be significant interaction?  Well then by this logic *Naruto is more friends with Hinata than any of the other rookie nine then (excepting his team mates) because he has openly admitted to "liking people like her"*.



I honestly wonder how that followed any logic.



> I guess i disagree with your apparent need for "super development".  Unless you were just making a needlessly sarcastic point about your view that Naruto and Hinata have had no development, in which case i disagree on that point too.



Development means something that appears over 200+ chapters that goes beyond "let's do our best".



> Every pairing needs *foreshadowing* and development.  NaruHina has evidence for both, and i've given such evidence in support of said pairing.



Hinata is on the cover of Ch. 297 pek [this is me when I'm being what you call "needlessly sarcastic"]



> Unless you can disprove what i've said, eventually you're gonna have to admit that my thoughts are at least a possibility.  If i can get you to at least admit that then i'll be happy.



The thing I'd like you to admit is that NaruSaku doesn't have much less than NaruHina.

I hate NaruSaku, so I'm neither happy or sad if you think NaruHina has a chance


----------



## 王志鍵 (Apr 28, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> Okay. Now that it's been confirmed I'll admit that's the truth. But. I as I may or may not have mentioned before, when Hinata started to acknowledge Naruto, doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to him is when he found out. And by the time he found out, many other people had already acknowledged him.


Naruto does indeed know that Hinata has been watching him for a long time.
"Kanmaru"
"Kanmaru"

This surprised Naruto. He had no idea someone(other than Iruka) had already acknowledged him early on, before he had the power to earn anyone's acknowledgement.



Serena-hime said:


> I've heard this a lot in Anti-NaruSaku arguments.
> Naruto and Sakura's relationship WAS developed in part 1. They were subtle hints, but they were there.
> 
> I'll be happy to show them to you: [*add Serenea-hime's whole list here]




Nice list.But after reading all that, I came to realize that a lot of the major development between Naruto and Sakura doesn't really relate to Naruto himself, but were all about, or related to Sasuke...
But some were okay though.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 29, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> I'm not saying Naruto and Sakura didn't bond over those instances, i'm just saying they weren't romantic.  Isn't that what we are discussing?  We both know that Sakura is going to get more friendship development with Naruto, but in terms of romantic development, or even one sided romantic thought or contemplation there is little to none.


NaruHina is one-sided.  I've found whole pages indicating Sakura's feelings for Naruto.  We've seen two pannels that indicate Naruto has romantic feelings for Hinata, and suddenly all Sakura's moments mean nothing?



XXXTurkey said:


> You were arguing that Naruto and Hinata's bond hadn't been developed at all so i provided you with proof that it had.  And NaruSaku is "super developed", but in terms of *friendship*, not romance.


By that logic, niether has NaruHina.

ZARU!



XXXTurkey said:


> So Sasuke's just escaped again and Sakura starts crying because Naruto is upset?  You can't just delete Sakura's feelings for Sasuke...  Where is the evidence she's given up on him?
> 
> Naruto is not getting Sasuke back just for Sakura and Sakura is not getting Sasuke back for Naruto.  They both want him back for their own reasons.


Thanks for taking everything I said out of context.  I was pointing out that Sakura thought about how _Naruto_ felt.  She was hurting to, but she cared about Naruto's feelings first and hid her own.  And, in case you failed Love 101, thinking about someone else before yourself is love.
Say "It was platonic" all you want.  You still don't have any proof that Naruto loves Hinata in even a platonic sense.



Hikui said:


> Hint? Why are you bringing up this argument? If you consider any romantic interaction, even when they're one-sided, there are hints for both pairings. If you consider mutual romantic interaction then there are NO HINTS for any pairing in Naruto, at all. It might be a hint that NaruHina can work, or is a positive relationship (yadda, yadda) but not a hint that NaruHina will become canon.


Gee, sorry to use the word "hint".  I didn't know it was forbidden.  I'll keep using the word "moment" from now on.  Are you happy? 



Hikui said:


> If you want to consider Naruto's: "Sakura you're awesome" as romantic then you must consider Naruto cheering Hinata in her fight, and telling her "the people like you, I really like" as romantic moments from Naruto's side. But they aren't (strictly on that sense).


"Amazing" isn't a term people often use for their friends.  And he was blushing at the time.



Hikui said:


> As for regarding Hinata's speech as "platonic" you could be right in the sense that the speech was 'platonic' but you cannot deny that her feelings for him are romantic. And by that logic, only confessions would be considered romantic....


I was making a point to the NaruHina crowd that was saying all the NaruSaku moments were platonic.  I simply pointed out that the same could be said of NaruHina.



Hikui said:


> Yeah, whenever he blushes is not strictly platonic from his part. But just because he has a crush on Sakura doesn't make all of their interactions "romantic".
> 
> Is this very same fact, that Sakura shares a close friendship bond with Naruto that is hard to tell whenever something is romantic or not.


True.  That is often the case.



Hikui said:


> So every time I hang out with my female friends, I'm dating them, right?


Sure, let's go with that.




Hikui said:


> And yeah, Naruto has not looked at Hinata like more than a friend before, but now that she confessed it's inevitable. By this I don't mean he'll fall in love with her instantly, but that he now will be forced to see her in a different light. (Like some people claim Sakura is looking at Naruto).


Like it was inevitable that Sakura would after Lee's confession? 



Hikui said:


> Are you seriously using that argument?
> 
> I have some problems as to why that isn't the case.
> 
> ...


1: Er...it's called Wrong _Guy_ First.  It's usually the lead female character that goes through it, regardless of wiether or not she's the main character.
2: Suitor #1 doesn't have to.  If he did, he might deserve the girl's love.  Can't have that now, can we?
3: She said to Sasuke: "When we were all together...it was fun."
4: And _that_ wasn't consoling?
con/sole [k_uh_n-sohl'] _v_ *consoled, consoling*
To alleviate or lessen grief, sorrow, or disappointment.  Give solace or comfort.
5: All the reason to use tropes.  Makes everything easier.
ZARU!
Again.



XXXTurkey said:


> I have addressed this.  These so called date requests are on the spur of the moment, with no planning, and usually preceded by him thinking about something completely different from Sakura and his supposed "love".


That's a matter of personal style.  I don't plan dates beforehand.  I ask the girl out, and plan it with her.  I *dare* you to accuse me of not taking it seriously.  Honestly, Naruto is a spur of the moment kind of guy.



XXXTurkey said:


> In the "date request" (which isn't actually a date request) on chapter 311, Naruto lies to Sakura by saying "I was just devising a plan for us to go on a walk, like a date".  Wheras in actuality he was "just" thinking about Sasuke.
> 
> Don't you think its odd that Naruto isn't ever honest with Sakura about his feelings, and yet we've seen Naruto open up to Hinata (and others, granted.  But not Sakura...).


Excuse me?  When has he lied to Sakura?



XXXTurkey said:


> And if i apply this statement to NaruSaku?  They've had plenty of interaction, but no earth shaking development...


No earth shaking development?  Read the manga will you.  What about Sakura doing a complete 180 from thinking Naruto is a loser, to saying he's awesome?  How 'bout Sakura saying that Naruto didn't have to keep his promise to her?



XXXTurkey said:


> So it has to be significant interaction?  Well then by this logic Naruto is more friends with Hinata than any of the other rookie nine then (excepting his team mates) because he has openly admitted to "liking people like her".


Seriously, are you even _reading_ this manga?  Who is Naruto spending all his free time with?  Sakura...Sai...Kakashi...Shikamaru.  Those are his best friends.  Maybe..._MAYBE_...Hinata is in slot # 5 or 6, but not his best friend.


----------



## mystic868 (Apr 29, 2009)

cuteyume said:


> if something is not presented in a manga panel it means it doesn't exist*.*
> sakura still loves sasuke ...it's not *what* naruto is thinking!
> everything nowadays comes with something more than friendship right!
> the poor asexuals!they feel like they just don't belong to this world!



And that's the problem I was talking about earlier. NaruHina fans are telling that even if Hinata had less panel time than Sakura it doesn't really matter because her feelings for him developed during off panel time. So why it shouldn't be also reffered to Sakura off panel time? If you're saying sth doesn't exist if is not presented in manga panels then it also reffers to Hinata off panel feelings development. And no it's not clearly spoken that she still loves Sasuke. We can only guess that.
I can agree that Hinata matured like most of younglings in Konoha, but there is nowhere said that Naruto loves her. It was spoken that he admires her and like her - that's true. But any other presumptions are not affirmed/showed in panels. And NaruHina fans shouldn't reffer to *their mutual romantic feelings *because it's one big failure.



> And yeah, Naruto has not looked at Hinata like more than a friend before, but now that she confessed it's inevitable. By this I don't mean he'll fall in love with her instantly, but that he now will be forced to see her in a different light. (Like some people claim Sakura is looking at Naruto).


Exactly


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 29, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Who doesn't know Naruto was wretched from loneliness does NOT know Naruto. Period. That is why I don't think her feelings are as justified.



I don't think that sentence makes sense...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> What does UNCONDITIONAL or UNREQUITTED love have to do with my claim that a love relationship requires mutual development??? What does it have to do with knowing someone or connecting with them on a mutual level? Even SasuSaku convinces me more when it comes to justified feelings.



You may have admitted that Hinata loves Naruto but i was addressing the fact that you were devaluing Hinata's love for him.  I agree that a love *relationship* requires mutual development but i was providing examples of how Hinata doesn't need to have Naruto love her for her love to be "genuine" or "mature".



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Oh I can't wait until Naruto addresses it. A person cannot develop feelings for someone out of thin air. Which is why I find gratitude a safer assumption.



I don't think any feelings he might develop would be "out of thin air".  We've seen the progression of Hinata's character in Naruto's eyes.  She is one of his friends.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> NaruSaku isn't about dates. They're just valid to suggest romantic inclination.



I would agree, if there had been any follow up to this ambiguous so called "suggestion" of romantic inclination.  I can't wait for Naruto to address Hinata either because it will give us a clear indication of whether the ambiguous romantic "suggestion" that was displayed in those scenes actually meant anything.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Once again, a person who doesn't say stuff either has nothing to say or is repressing something for significant reasons. I am not a NaruSaku fan but if I were to ignore NaruSasu then I would say he probably isn't too hopeful about being corresponded therefore doesn't give impression of serious pursuit.



So he's afraid of rejection if he pursues her seriously?  She's rejected him plenty of times before and it hasn't had any emotional impact.  But i've got to be honest, you could be a little clearer cos i'm not 100% sure if i've addressed the point you were actually making...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> LoL. The usual Anti-NaruSaku "how disappointing it would be".
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



That bit was my opinion.  My point was that Sakura hasn't done anything about her supposed "feelings" for Naruto so far and deciding to do something off the back off this would be a bit... poor.  It could happen though, i just think it would reflect badly on Sakura's character... i mean if Sakura's feelings are so obvious and strong then can't she realise them herself?






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> It's a clamorously incorrect translation.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I know she didn't witness the confession but *Japflap*'s  translation, *HisshouBuraiKen*'s translation and *Yagami1211*'s translation all have Sakura saying something involving Hinata loving Naruto.  But again, in my opinion even "you were able to go so far for Naruto" is an expression of awe.  It also links into Sakura's insecurities about not being able to do enough for him.


*Spoiler*: __ 



And your spoiler tagged stuff is missing the point entirely.  Hinata jumped in to save Naruto, not to die in front of him.  She expressed her intent by attacking Pain.  Hypothetically, if Hinata had merely defended Naruto and not confessed, or another character had defended him and attacked Pain, would you accuse them of wanting to die?






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Then I wonder what the author thinks of SasuNaru ... /non sequitur





			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> *still thinking about SasuNaru*



Considering the amount of time that Kishimoto has placed on their bond and the positivity that both Naruto and Sasuke exhibit towards it, he obviously thinks that their bond is the most important in this story.

I just think that it goes too far to pair them.  It's mutual friendship but neither sided romance.

But again i think you're missing the point.  Just because it applies to Naruto and Sasuke's bond it doesn't mean it can't be applied to Naruto and Hinata's.  You're not really countering my point and by admitting a parallel with Naruto and Sasuke, almost supporting it...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Sakura wanting to do more for Naruto isn't ambiguous and
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Not ambiguous in terms of friendship.  Completely ambiguous in terms of romance.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I never said Hinata was a stalker and that's not the point when it comes to expressing one's self for general comprehension.





			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> What I meant is that her stalking is still stalking.



Page 62, post 1228.  You said it yesterday...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> No seriously, for that statement it was mandatory.





			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Maybe cos Naruto already knew and had faith in Sakura



Please, support your assertions.  This is a debate so we need evidence to prove things.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> She flashbacked herself literally *watching* Naruto
> 
> I already told you what I had to say about justified feelings.



Exactly, watching.  Not stalking.  Now we have that out of the way.  How are her feelings not justified?  I've asked for examples of where Hinata doesn't show an understanding of Naruto, or where Naruto expresses that Hinata has got him wrong.  I've suppied examples of how she does understand him and how Naruto acknowledges that she does.

Imagine a set of scales.  I've put evidence in one side, so the balance is tipping in my points' favour.  Until you supply more than baseless opinion i can't really do more than repeat myself...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Dying flaunting romantic pretentions isn't the same as dying for an ideal or comradeship.



I addressed this before.  Hinata was sacrificing herself for the person she loves.  You've already admitted that she does love him so i don't accept your use of the word "pretensions" and so therefore how is it all that different from sacrifice for comradeship?



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> The visible reason is Sasuke Sakura whether you like it or not.



Until there is follow up to that effect, no.  You've also admitted that NaruSaku is ambigous and more than that is needed.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> NO. I need deep understanding and mutual influence, not panel time.



I know i keep repeating this but Hinata has shown deep understanding of Naruto.  I've given you the evidence for this and i need something to prove otherwise before i will believe otherwise.  Please, produce evidence for me becuase all i see is conjecture on your part.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I honestly wonder how that followed any logic.



Okay.

Would you dispute the fact that Naruto is friends with all of the rookie nine (plus team Gai)?  If you don't think any of them are friends then i think you are missing something but at least you are consistent...  If you think Naruto is friends with everyone other than Hinata then you are just plain wrong.

Hinata has shared moments of significance with Naruto (blood oath, training field, both of their fights against Neji) that have not happened between him and others within the Konoha 12.  Shino for example, or Kiba, or Chouji.  Shikamaru has admitted to being inspired by Naruto's presence and you would accept that they're friends right?  It just seems that as soon as love enters the equation you're not willing to accept it.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Development means something that appears over 200+ chapters that goes beyond "let's do our best".



Again, you seem to be asserting that panel time is the only way to get development.  I disagree, significant panel time equals development.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Hinata is on the cover of Ch. 297 pek [this is me when I'm being what you call "needlessly sarcastic"]



And oddly enough this is one of the few pieces of primary evidence you've given me...

In terms of replying to Forlong... Sorry mate, i'm hungry so i'm gonna cut this short.  Basically i've said that all of these so called "romantic moments" between Naruto and Sakura can be attributed to friendship as well.  It's ambiguous at best in terms of romance.  Until we get follow up, if we get follow up, they will stay that way.

Conversely, from Hinata's side, the romance part is already there.  In a similar way to NaruSaku, we need positive follow up from Naruto to Hinata's romantic feelings to cement the pairing.  Naruto after all, hasn't thought of Hinata romantically so far.  I just believe, for the many reasons i've stated, that Naruto can accept her and that Kishimoto is heading for NaruHina as a pairing.

As far as where he *could* go though, we're on the knife edge.  Anything is still possible...


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 29, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> I don't think that sentence makes sense...



Maybe that's why you're not getting my point even if I've repeated it over and over again.

HINATA DOESN'T COMPREHEND NARUTO'S PAIN OF LONELINESS.

Conclusion: Hinata is missing an essential side of Naruto's character. She only understands him in relation and comparison to herself. It's not that hard to understand.

So you can rejoice. You have literally forced me to defend the pairing I hate with explicit evidence since you no comprende mi inglés.

_Kurenai: [thinking] You used to always be a quitter, but you began to try to change yourself. I saw how much you'd train...But you'd always fail in the missions.. you were weak when it mattered most and you'd quickly lose confidence

but today Hinata's different

Neji: Why do you stand... if you keep pushing yourself, you'll die...

Hinata: He is finally watching me... in front of the person I admire..

Neji: [thinks] Why?

Hinata: (more about being seen by Naruto)

[when the match is over before she faints]

Hinata: Naruto-kun... ....was I able... to change a little?_

Ok. So Hinata wants to change, yes? Watching Naruto gives her confidence. Cos no matter how much people think he's a good for nothing he continues to keep going despite the failures, showing a strength she wished to have.

This supports the notion that HINATA understands NARUTO as much as he understands her - the desire to change. Which is WHY Naruto gets into a fight with Neji when the latter says a loser cannot change 

That is the END to where there is significant understanding in NaruHina. 

Such cases of _understanding_ is in COUNTLESS circumstantial events in the manga. Naruto understanding Inari. Naruto understanding Sakura. Naruto understanding Sasuke. Naruto understanding Gaara. Naruto understanding Neji.

How can NaruHina flatter itself in being on par for justified feelings when LOVE which isn't developed from mutual interaction isn't comparable to that which is. It's like saying the friendship between Naruto and Gaara is greater than between Sasuke and Naruto cos Naruto could deeply understand Gaara from his situation, just worse and not even in that case comparable to the distance between NaruHina and NaruSaku.

Naruto and Sakura KNOW each other on a close, emotionally connected, literary [meaning by manga devices] consistant basis - that's called DEVELOPMENT in the general sense _in contrast_ to the situation of ceasing to be a mere acquaintance to someone due to empathy based on personal experience - NOT knowing the other individual on a personal level or even spending time together. Hinata has had some scenes with Naruto, but he has never comprehended half of her feelings at all. Either cos 1. he is not intrigued or responsive to her - meaning no significant dynamic has come forth spontaneously from his side, 2. he DOESN'T REALLY KNOW HER. When someone doesn't know you like helk that's not even _close_ to an understanding relationship. Which is why, her feelings are not as justified for my standards to perform a sacrifice on such pretext without looking OVERRATED. That is all.



> You may have admitted that Hinata loves Naruto but i was addressing the fact that you were devaluing Hinata's love for him.  I agree that a love *relationship* requires mutual development but i was providing examples of how Hinata doesn't need to have Naruto love her for her love to be "genuine" or "mature".



Answer above.



> I don't think any feelings he might develop would be "out of thin air".  We've seen the progression of Hinata's character in Naruto's eyes.  She is one of his friends.



Ok. But take in count he has never been particularly responsive to her UNLIKE to Sakura. She is one of the only characters Naruto has approached for very particular reasons. I'm serious about this. His relating to her is very vague and is given the context of romantic interest.

That _cannot_ be ignored or underestimated if you don't think Naruto is gay for Sasuke.



> I would agree, if there had been any follow up to this ambiguous so called "suggestion" of romantic inclination.  I can't wait for Naruto to address Hinata either because it will give us a clear indication of whether the ambiguous romantic "suggestion" that was displayed in those scenes actually meant anything.



Once again Anti-NaruSaku brings up the "follow up card". This is shounen. This is Sakura stuck between Sasuke and Naruto. This is Naruto stuck between Sasuke and Sakura.

There isn't supposed to necessarily be any follow up card so soon.

Plus, I wonder how this shit is never valid for SasuSaku, many who use this reasoning to discriminate NaruSaku.

Oh, but that is because the poor Avenger is too socially handicapped to have any romantic inclination and is consumed by revenge, which forces him to _emotionally_ focus on males only [also cos this is shounen !]



> So he's afraid of rejection if he pursues her seriously?  She's rejected him plenty of times before and it hasn't had any emotional impact.  But i've got to be honest, you could be a little clearer cos i'm not 100% sure if i've addressed the point you were actually making...



My point is that this is PART 2. Naruto is stuck between Sasuke and Sakura. And I'm sorry, the Poal was emotional impact. Unless you think Naruto understands Sakura's desire to be acknowledged only by Sasuke cos he's gay for him too, I suggest you revaluate Naruto's feelings for that girl who choked on her tears realizing Naruto always understood her feelings and "thanking" [but no OMFG! cos it isn't SasuSaku] him on presumed realization of his in her regards.

And for the millionth time males will NOT be consumed by their supposed love interest in this manga like the girls.
Ever realized that you barely have any MALE character to compare Naruto's romantic interest in Sakura with except for Lee, whose thing for Sakura has been unaddressed in ANY way [unlike his in Part 2]!?

There is no saying for sure how serious Naruto is about Sakura, but, without NaruSasu, it's pretty damn evident he tried really damn hard esp compared to the "evidence" SasuSaku uses on itself.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> That bit was my opinion.  My point was that Sakura hasn't done anything about her supposed "feelings" for Naruto so far and deciding to do something off the back off this would be a bit... poor.  It could happen though, i just think it would reflect badly on Sakura's character... i mean if Sakura's feelings are so obvious and strong then can't she realise them herself?



Yeah. It's so poor for Sakura to *grow* a romantic love for Naruto 

Sakura's feelings are not obvious. They never have been towards Naruto. The simple fact she has not taken romantic intiative either shows she has not reached that conclusion or doesn't feel like that, but that doesn't mean the possibility isn't clearly there. Cos Naruto is NOT like a brother to Sakura even if her feelings do not prove to have romantic impulse.  The way she has been impressed by Naruto throughout the manga is too suggestive.



> I know she didn't witness the confession but *Japflap*'s  translation, *HisshouBuraiKen*'s translation and *Yagami1211*'s translation all have Sakura saying something involving Hinata loving Naruto.  But again, in my opinion even "you were able to go so far for Naruto" is an expression of awe.  It also links into Sakura's insecurities about not being able to do enough for him.



CONFIDENCE ISSUES 

They don't get rid of Sakura's carefully PORTRAYED feelings towards Naruto I'm afraid. Poor Yamato. The notion seems to just downplay whatever the Naruto/Sakura interaction can have to me and therefore I refuse to follow such line of thought even if I LIKE TO BELIEVE hers are actions based on platonic feelings in reaction to Naruto's feelings for her and her care for his wellbeing etc..cos after all this guy just happens to make her promises of a life-time 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And your spoiler tagged stuff is missing the point entirely.  Hinata jumped in to save Naruto, not to die in front of him. She expressed her intent by attacking Pain.



*Spoiler*: __ 



She said she knew she couldn't compete and said she wasn't afraid to die cos of [insert speech]. Pein pwning her 5 secs later can support the point.





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Hypothetically, if Hinata had merely defended Naruto and not confessed, or another character had defended him and attacked Pain, would you accuse them of wanting to die?



The problem is that they didn't. Gee I wonder why. They must not care about Naruto like she does 



> Considering the amount of time that Kishimoto has placed on their bond and the positivity that both Naruto and Sasuke exhibit towards it, he obviously thinks that their bond is the most important in this story.



I AGREE'D.



> I just think that it goes too far to pair them.  It's mutual friendship but neither sided romance.



Which can never change cos...ambiguity isn't valid


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 29, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:
			
		

> But again i think you're missing the point.  Just because it applies to Naruto and Sasuke's bond it doesn't mean it can't be applied to Naruto and Hinata's.  You're not really countering my point and by admitting a parallel with Naruto and Sasuke, almost supporting it...



I'm countering your point by pointing out the insignificance in comparison to what I consider significant development for a mutual relationship. Cos romance just happens to be something extremely ARBITUARY with the need of also mutual development to be something strong and lasting.



> Not ambiguous in terms of friendship.  Completely ambiguous in terms of romance.



Yeah...right  this is where YOU aren't giving me any evidence. If you can't prove something is friendship that means it's not completely unambiguous for romance! Cos you don't have the counter statement of either Sakura saying _OMG! I still LOVE Sasuke_ or _Oh gee Naruto, you're like a brother to me_.



> Page 62, post 1228.  You said it yesterday...



And I SAID in my post just before that STALKING was used as a general expression to not be read in a tightass manner.



> Please, support your assertions.  This is a debate so we need evidence to prove things.



Nice if I got the same favor in return.



> Exactly, watching.  Not stalking.  Now we have that out of the way.  How are her feelings not justified?  I've asked for examples of where Hinata doesn't show an understanding of Naruto, or where Naruto expresses that Hinata has got him wrong.  I've suppied examples of how she does understand him and how Naruto acknowledges that she does.



I've expressed my view on this and I hope you've finally understood or we're just going to have to give up on each other.



> Imagine a set of scales.  I've put evidence in one side, so the balance is tipping in my points' favour.  Until you supply more than baseless opinion i can't really do more than repeat myself...



*Spoiler*: __ 



If you don't know for yourself what it means to see Hinata in 437 flashbacking herself simply *watching* Naruto I'm afraid you'll never get my point about what the relationship lacks.





> I addressed this before.  Hinata was sacrificing herself for the person she loves.  You've already admitted that she does love him so i don't accept your use of the word "pretensions" and so therefore how is it all that different from sacrifice for comradeship?



*Spoiler*: __ 



She doesn't know the dude enough to justifiedly trade her life to merely "cover" his for LOVE. I feel sorry for Naruto, he must have felt like a dumbass for never noticing her in that way and having the latter willingly lose her life in his name he should have been strong enough to protect himself as his tie to the village 

Utterly horrified by that scene and how it affected Naruto. I don't see Naruto going Kyuubi as NICE.





> Would you dispute the fact that Naruto is friends with all of the rookie nine (plus team Gai)?  If you don't think any of them are friends then i think you are missing something but at least you are consistent...  If you think Naruto is friends with everyone other than Hinata then you are just plain wrong.
> 
> Hinata has shared moments of significance with Naruto (blood oath, training field, both of their fights against Neji) that have not happened between him and others within the Konoha 12.  Shino for example, or Kiba, or Chouji.  Shikamaru has admitted to being inspired by Naruto's presence and you would accept that they're friends right?  It just seems that as soon as love enters the equation you're not willing to accept it.



Naruto has had more mutual interaction and understanding with Shikamaru, hell god knows even Choji. Naruto has been with them in death situations and they support him in his pursuit of Sasuke. They're on the covers with him as if they were best buddies. Shikamaru has been with him when Gaara attempted murder on Lee. He noticed Naruto's pain for Sasuke when the former came back. These things all happened nicely spread throughout the manga and were shone on for what they were worth in relation to Naruto, and there's no comparison to prove any point for NaruHina. And that's all I'm going to say to counter your assumptions cos I'm not going to waste time showing you the relevence of his brothers of the Leaf who risked their lives to bring Sasuke back. These dudes are brought up in the VotE. Unlike Hinata, just saying.


> Again, you seem to be asserting that panel time is the only way to get development.  I disagree, significant panel time equals development.



Sorry if I don't think Naruto fighting against Neji means Naruto has got amazing potential with Hinata when for 200+ chapters barely anything went on between them that wasn't...let's not go there.



> And oddly enough this is one of the few pieces of primary evidence you've given me...



Don't enjoy going A, B, C for pairings I hate.


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 29, 2009)

It might be a little cheap for me to copy a post I did earlier, but I don't feel like repeating myself, and since no one ever refuted these points, I figure it can't hurt to stick this up again. 

Analyzing Hinata's confession scene, from one stance.  You could say that it didn't serve any point, Hinata knew she was outmatched. She definitely went in with the knowledge that she'd be likely to die. And you could say her confession served no point except to make Naruto feel really awful. She called her action selfish herself, which strengthens the point.

But.  From the other side.

First of all, her actions WEREN'T pointless.  I've heard people argue that Naruto probably could have escaped somehow along the trip to Akatsuki, but considering Gaara's experience, as well as the fact that Pein only needs to take him to wherever they can use the Summoning Statue, I'd say he would've been pretty screwed if Hinata hadn't showed up.  Certainly the manga suggests that he would've been, Naruto is pretty helpless.  And Hinata jumps in JUST as Pein is saying they need to leave.  It's one of those "darkest before dawn" moments.  Yes, Naruto should've found a way outside of the six-tails.  But he certainly didn't seem to be getting anywhere, either because Pein was depressing him too much, or simply because there wasn't anything to do.

Now, you could say that Hinata might've considered her actions pointless. After all:



izzyisozaki said:


> She said she knew she couldn't compete and said she wasn't afraid to die cos of [insert speech]. Pein pwning her 5 secs later can support the point.[/SPOILER]



 But that doesn't necessarily follow.  She says "not afraid to die protecting you."  Whether she thought Naruto might be able to escape in the interim, or whether she had some wild hope of disabling Pein, it doesn't necessarily follow that she thought her death would be meaningless. And she doesn't really TRY to die, I mean, it's not like she just stands there.  Granted, she's still horribly out of her league, but against anybody else, she might've been able to do something.



izzyisozaki said:


> She doesn't know the dude enough to justifiedly trade her life to merely "cover" his for LOVE. I feel sorry for Naruto, he must have felt like a dumbass for never noticing her in that way and having the latter willingly lose her life in his name he should have been strong enough to protect himself as his tie to the village
> 
> Utterly horrified by that scene and how it affected Naruto. I don't see Naruto going Kyuubi as NICE.



But Hinata is NOT doing this to make everyone else feel bad.  I could see where people might say that, but I don't see that as the case.  She's not wailing or berating Naruto here, feeding him sob stories or what have you.  She's speaking very plainly and simply.  She's not even looking to see how he reacts. 

This is the sense in which Hinata's action is "selfish."  She's not doing it for the effect it will have on anyone's view of her.  She's not doing it so Naruto will pay attention to her.  She's doing it because she can't do anything else.  Ko Hyuuga, the one person she's saving, tells her he couldn't forgive himself if anything happened to her, and it's much the same case with her and Naruto.  She just can't live with herself if Naruto dies.

The reason she's telling all Naruto this is because she's probably going to die.  It's like battlefield confessions time.  Sorta like when Lisa Hayes goes to Rick Hunter just before the battle, to tell him she loves him.  (right in front of Rick's girlfriend).  Lisa considered that "selfish" too, but did it because she might never see him again.  It's a load she needed to get off her chest.

And thirdly, this isn't just about her well-being, obviously.  It's about Naruto's, too.  Even if logically she knows that she doesn't stand a chance against Pein, there's a difference between knowing that and standing by. 



izzyisozaki said:


> The problem is that they didn't. Gee I wonder why. They must not care about Naruto like she does



 Some people have suggested that if Sakura had seen things, she would've run in herself.  I imagine almost anyone would have, actually.  Hyuuga and Ko just happened to be the only ones that knew about it.  In fact, just after Hinata jumps down there, we see Ko yelling after her, wanting to jump down and save her.  Does he stand any better chance against Pein?  Probably not.  But if his leg hadn't been shattered, he would've done the same for Hinata as Hinata did for Naruto.

Also, this is Japan.  Japanese kamikazes have a long and noble history.  Giving your life in defense of your country (or unidentified group of loved ones) is considered noble, even if you fail in the attempt.  Kishi is tapping into that here.

So ultimately, I would say that Hinata's action is not selfish.  It's maybe the most fulfilling thing her character has ever done.  As I've said before, if she HAD died there, I would've been sad, but it would've been a fitting end.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 29, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> I
> Also, this is Japan.  Japanese kamikazes have a long and noble history.  Giving your life in defense of your country (or unidentified group of loved ones) is considered noble, even if you fail in the attempt.  Kishi is tapping into that here.



Yeah. Sure, cos selflessly dying to protect someone is totally new school.  Not to mention the Japanese lost WWII.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Whether the action is selfish or not wasn't the point in this case. I was talking about the justified placement of her feelings. I really don't feel like debating what's selfish and what not. NH sees she had a difficult decision by sacrificing Koh's desire there, but in evaluation of the situation it seemed useless and I didn't like such circumstances for something like a romantic confession to take place, which is something that bids to be returned or give pressure whether she lived or not. Moreover I found it horribly rushed, instead of feeling for her [like I had during Neji vs. Hinata] I just facepalmed and cringed for Naruto.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 29, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> I would agree, if there had been any follow up to this ambiguous so called "suggestion" of romantic inclination.  I can't wait for Naruto to address Hinata either because it will give us a clear indication of whether the ambiguous romantic "suggestion" that was displayed in those scenes actually meant anything.


Hate to break it to you, but that's not going to be resolved anytime soon.  Not because NaruSaku is more likely, but becuase the manga has a ways to go before it finishes. 



XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> That bit was my opinion.  My point was that Sakura hasn't done anything about her supposed "feelings" for Naruto so far and deciding to do something off the back off this would be a bit... poor.  It could happen though, i just think it would reflect badly on Sakura's character... i mean if Sakura's feelings are so obvious and strong then can't she realise them herself?



*Spoiler*: __ 



*Letting Naruto know that she cares about him.
*Trying to find ways she can help him.
*I'd hate to bring up the feeding scene again.  Oh, who am I kidding?  I love doing that. 
I agree with you that it would be poor for Hinata's confession to induce Sakura's.  All the better that she doesn't know.






XXXTurkey said:


> In terms of replying to Forlong... Sorry mate, i'm hungry so i'm gonna cut this short.


I'm hungry to.  I think I'll have pizza.  Ooh, that's nice.



izzyisozaki said:


> So you can rejoice. You have literally forced me to defend the pairing I hate with explicit evidence since you no comprende mi ingl?s.


You are a prince among angels.

And I don't even have a clue what that means.

ZARU!
Is that starting to get annoying?



izzyisozaki said:


> Yeah. Sure, cos selflessly dying to protect someone is totally new school.  Not to mention the Japanese lost WWII.


Take that claim to the Chinese.


----------



## faceoffkang** (Apr 29, 2009)

Once Naruto is done dealing with Pein/Nagato and can either confront Hinata or just THINK about what she said in ch.437 everyone will have the answer to this debate or we'll all just end up debating over what happens then.
I personally think that the only reason naruto went 8tails/6tails is because she's a comrade...nothing more nothing less
I honestly tried reading the last couple pages of posts but that....didn't work


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 29, 2009)

Seriously?  The manga still has a long way to go?

*Spoiler*: __ 




That stinks.  I mean, it makes sense, but it seemed as if it was getting to the last few battles.  Orochimaru is dead, Itachi is dead, Kakashi and Jiraiya are dead, Pein is as-good-as dead, as far as I'm concerned.  Not only that, but the village is pretty much ground into the dirt.  And nearly all the demon-things have been sucked into the Sealing Statue.  

Essentially, all that remains to be done is some big last battle with Madara and Sasuke and that sealing statue thing.  I mean, I suppose we haven't yet completely seen the FULL Nine-tails (though apparently it did emerge at one point), but aside from that it seems all the story arcs were getting tied up.

Did Kishi make an announcement?  For some reason I was hoping for a conclusion in the next 100 chapters or so.


----------



## faceoffkang** (Apr 29, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Honestly, I do not think Kakashi is dead i read thru the past chapters kinda fast but I didn't see any definitive evidence that K-man is dead.
Tho you do have a point...Akatsuki is in shambles really.
But the fact that the village is in ruins means that he manga cant end soon kishi COULD end it with the village in ruins but....that would suck
and honestly....Naruto...he doesn't impress me...he's always has to some extent because he just wont quit and thats cool but when will he become mature...or more mature...maybe after talking to pein?
There are many lose ends and i dont feel they could be tied in 100-150 chapters


----------



## Hikui (Apr 29, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Gee, sorry to use the word "hint".  I didn't know it was forbidden.  I'll keep using the word "moment" from now on.  Are you happy?


It isn't forbidden, but my initial reaction was: why the hell is he/she talking about hints? And yeah, I think moment is a better word.



Forlong said:


> "Amazing" isn't a term people often use for their friends.  And he was blushing at the time.



"Amazing" is "amazing"...whoever can use it as the please. I can say: My friend is amazing, my dog is amazing, my dad is amazing, the game is amazing. etc. 

I'm quoting the dictionary definition now:


> Amazing (adj. )
> 1.inspiring awe or admiration or wonder
> 2. surprising greatly



The term seems very platonic to me. Hinata probably thought Naruto was amazing, but we all know that was only admiration. 

Saying it isn't a term not often used for friends is a weak argument. And he was blushing....I don't think it means much. The scene itself is just 'meh', definitely not the ultimate proof Naruto's trulub for Sakura. I say, let's drop the argument over such a (almost) meaningless panel. 



Forlong said:


> I was making a point to the NaruHina crowd that was saying all the NaruSaku moments were platonic.  I simply pointed out that the same could be said of NaruHina.



You're not debating with the NaruHina crowd, you're debating with me.  And I guess they could be the same, with the difference that Naruto has always been something more than a friend (close friend, best friend, *insert whatever isn't romantic here) to her, it's hard to see it as platonic.



Forlong said:


> Like it was inevitable that Sakura would after Lee's confession?


It's not fair to compare two different situations. Hinata's confession was different from Lee's, like people had said before so I'm not repeating. And Sakura and Naruto are two different characters, with different reactions....I'll just leave it as that.



Forlong said:


> 1: Er...it's called Wrong _Guy_ First.  It's usually the lead female character that goes through it, regardless of whether or not she's the main character.
> 2: Suitor #1 doesn't have to.  If he did, he might deserve the girl's love.  Can't have that now, can we?
> 3: She said to Sasuke: "When we were all together...it was fun."
> 4: And _that_ wasn't consoling?
> ...



1. Of course, I forgot. Kishimoto has probably planned out Sakura's "romantic journey". (And why would he use a trope for Sakura and not for his main character?)
2. To break things off you don't need to be in a relationship? Okay...
3. All together means "Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura" not "Sasuke and Sakura"
4. Well, I guess I'll give you this point because I'm not a sore loser. 
5. So Kishimoto uses tropes because it's easier? Don't think so. 

Knowing that Naruto is the main character, and to simplify even more the equation the likeliest of the tropes is:  



> Given the romantic resolution occurs late in the series, this has to applied rather quickly, as there isn't much time left. This can create a subset of moderate shippers, who aren't bothered so much at being unfulfilled as it being done in a silly manner.



It sounds awfully familiar. And it still goes either way.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 29, 2009)

Hikui said:


> 1. Of course, I forgot. Kishimoto has probably planned out Sakura's "romantic journey". (And why would he use a trope for Sakura and not for his main character?)
> 2. To break things off you don't need to be in a relationship? Okay...
> 3. All together means "Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura" not "Sasuke and Sakura"
> 4. Well, I guess I'll give you this point because I'm not a sore loser.
> 5. So Kishimoto uses tropes because it's easier? Don't think so.


1: He may very well have.  In research, I found out that Kishimoto-sensei originally didn't plan to make Hinata a ninja (making her even _less_ important to the plot), and didn't plan Sasuke at all!  Yet, as far as I can tell, Sakura was planned early and had a well deffined roll.  So, I'd say her romance was ploted out at some point.
2: "I must break off my bonds."  Isn't that what Sasuke said.  He did have some sort of bond with Sakura.
3: Well, whatever...
4: Gald you're big enough to admit it.
5: _Everyone_ uses Tropes.



Hikui said:


> Knowing that Naruto is the main character, and to simplify even more the equation the likeliest of the tropes is:



So all tropes only apply to the main character?


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 30, 2009)

Forlong said:


> 1: He may very well have.  In research, I found out that Kishimoto-sensei originally didn't plan to make Hinata a ninja (making her even _less_ important to the plot), and didn't plan Sasuke at all!  Yet, as far as I can tell, Sakura was planned early and had a well deffined roll.  So, I'd say her romance was ploted out at some point.



This is actually a very interesting point.  I heard the same.  Initially, Hinata was just a Hyuuga family member, chosen, I imagine, to accent Neji's bitterness.  Given that her story was emphasized more in the initial fight with Neji, I'm pretty sure he discarded that idea before she appeared.  The "ninja" thing was played up to show how her family viewed her.

It's interesting how you bring up Sasuke.  I've also heard that Sasuke wasn't initially planned, essentially the producer recommended that Kishi add a "rival" for Naruto's character.  Sasuke basically started as a foil to Naruto.  That's why he's so completely different.

But obviously, Sasuke's role changed a lot over the course of the series.  The conclusion of Part I showed that clearly enough, and you could argue that Part II is ALL about him and the other two's quest to recover him.  He's become an incredibly pivotal figure.  Shoot, his family's massacre must've changed nearly three times.

Given that, isn't it possible that a character like Hinata could become equally pivotal?  I mean, lets face it, half the development of characters in this series is done through flashbacks.  Prior to Chouji's fight with Jirouyou, he had no real background.  Sakura's relationship with Ino only came out through flashbacks in their fight.  All we had for Sasuke was that he was a genius who Naruto hated, and then all of a sudden at the end we got this "enormous unspoken bond that's existed since childhood days."  And now in Part II he's this obsession of Naruto's.  

See, actually, this is an argument of how LITTLE Kishimoto had planned out at the start of his series.  That's often the way with comics, you start with a fun character, and before you know it, he's run off someplace else entirely.  Even if he did plan out Sakura's romantic involvement, there's no guarantee he would stick with that.  

It would be incredibly easy, and not even contradictory, for Kishi to build up a whole new backstory for Naruto's and Hinata's relation, giving all sorts of moments to them in the past.  In fact, it would be even easier, because he has the apocyrphal anime fillers to back him up if he wants.  He knows NaruHina has a strong fan base.  And Kishi's not above easy.  Seriously, he's not.


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 30, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I don't think it is. There's still a very big gap between Sakura's importance to the plot and Hinata's. By the number of her appearances she should be like in the perhaps the 15th-30th gap.
> 
> And character popularity is not that important, last time I checked Naruhina was more popular than NaruSaku. (and it means nothing)



It's been nearly 2 years since I brought this up in the debate and thought it was time to brush the dust off.  



Statistically, Sakura is just as popular as Hinata, but Sakura has nearly *2800 votes more than Hinata* (Overall).  Which is confirmed inside Databook 3 (Page 334), with a summary of these 6 polls, where Sakura has *6th place* and Hinata is in *11th place*.


BTW, while looking at DB3 I saw a pie chart of the Bloodtypes and almost forgot about the Bloodtype arguement.   If you don't know, A-types like Hinata don't go with B-Types like Naruto.   (You be surprised how culturally significant this is in Japan).  




Hikui said:


> There are also 0 MUTUAL romantic moments between Sakura and Naruto. And yes, you have found indications that Sakura might feel the same way but I haven't (along with thousands of others).
> 
> Again, I don't debate Databooks. Hell, they said Ino felt something near to trulub for Sasuke...right.
> 
> ...



Hey, those spoilers again!  

Well with the means of a confession, but I wouldn't rule out Chapter 343 as insignificant.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



But because Hinata confessed doesn't mean Naruto's suddenly going to go out with her.  

Frankly, it's a lousy time for romance to kick in, when we are starting to get to the climax of the story.  Romance tends to kill the action, unless it's intertwined somehow.  And I honestly don't see Hinata being significant to Naruto other than background support, like the other Rookies.






Hikui said:


> Though, it could be Betty or Veronica now but I just don't think so. To me is more like .



I disagree with this website's analysis. Because Naruto's not torn between Sakura and Hinata.   Instead, Sasuke is most likely to be in this situation.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Between Sakura and Karin.  (Perhaps Ino too).






Hikui said:


> You're not debating with the NaruHina crowd, you're debating with me. And I guess they could be the same, with the difference that Naruto has always been something more than a friend (close friend, best friend, *insert whatever isn't romantic here) to her, it's hard to see it as platonic.



True, we are debating between individuals.  But here in the debate thread, we also represent our fanbases.  (In fact, people on all sides are reading our posts.  Some taking notes, others laughing their asses off at people's "stupidity".  )

As for Naruto's relationship with Sakura, yes it's a powerful friendship, but there isn't anything that says that couldn't develop into something else. 



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gotta remember those spoilers.  

And it's very fair to bring up Lee's confession to Sakura.   Kishimoto tends to use parallels quite a bit, especially with significant moments. 



Hikui said:


> 1. Of course, I forgot. Kishimoto has probably planned out Sakura's "romantic journey". (And why would he use a trope for Sakura and not for his main character?)



Yes, he said he had the ending figured out within the first couple of chapters, pairings and all.  



Hikui said:


> 5. So Kishimoto uses tropes because it's easier? Don't think so.



Even though the trope and cliche' are technically the same term.  It's better to use the term cliche' instead.   Because cliche' tends to emphasize more on the obvious reuse of storylines and characters that are widely known, while tropes are more in-line with the use of not-so-well-known storyline devices.



Hikui said:


> Knowing that Naruto is the main character, and to simplify even more the equation the likeliest of the tropes is:



You realize all those "romantic loose ends" tend to occur at the end of the mangas, right?   Which Naruto is expected to still well over 50 chapters away from the end.  

If anything, the romantic loose ends will be with Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 30, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Maybe that's why you're not getting my point even if I've repeated it over and over again.
> 
> HINATA DOESN'T COMPREHEND NARUTO'S PAIN OF LONELINESS.
> 
> ...



Aha, you've given me something to debate with you about!

No, it isn't (see bolded).  In fact, you're wrong that Hinata deosn't understand the pain of Naruto loneliness too.

Chapter 76, page 11.  Hinata expresses an understanding of why Naruto wants to change.  He was alone and unacknowledged.  She also understands that a trait she lacks, believing in her self worth, is one that Naruto has in abundance and that is why she both admires him 
*Spoiler*: __ 



(and eventually loves him)


 and wishes to emulate him.  She clearly understands the roots of his desire to change, his loneliness and lack of acknowledgement.

Hinata is the one giving us this inner monologue precisely because she understands that part of Naruto's character.  So i'll have to disagree with you.

In fact its not even just her understanding of the fact that he wants to change or her understanding his loneliness.  She exhibits further understanding in the training field scene...

Chapter 98, page 11-12.  Hinata shows her understanding of why Naruto is a strong person, i.e. because he doesn't give up.  She knows herself what it is like to fail, and how hard it is to get up and try again  You might say this is obvious but Hinata is the first person to personally acknowledge how difficult it was for Naruto to get back up when he did fail, and call him strong because of it.  She might be the only one, but i can't say for sure because to back that up i'd pretty much have to read the entire manga again...

And Naruto acknowledges the degree to which she understands by not only saying he felt better because of her, but he also visibly (to the reader) changes his view of her.  That's obvious development right there.

So i would have to disagree completely when you say she is missing "an essential part of Naruto's character".



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Such cases of _understanding_ is in COUNTLESS circumstantial events in the manga. Naruto understanding Inari. Naruto understanding Sakura. Naruto understanding Sasuke. Naruto understanding Gaara. Naruto understanding Neji.



Are you calling Naruto understanding all of these various characters "circumstantial events"?  I don't understand, what are you trying to prove?  More importantly, why is Naruto understanding Sasuke a "circumstantial event"?  Isn't it important in understanding their bond?



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> How can NaruHina flatter itself in being on par for justified feelings when LOVE which isn't developed from mutual interaction isn't comparable to that which is. *It's like saying the friendship between Naruto and Gaara is greater than between Sasuke and Naruto cos Naruto could deeply understand Gaara from his situation, just worse and not even in that case comparable to the distance between NaruHina and NaruSaku.*



That paragraph is grammatically correct (as far as i can make out) but incredibly badly put.  Please, let me just take a quick aside and try to help your debating skills.

The onus should not be on me to decipher what you are trying to say.  Part of good writing and good debating is to be clear with the points you are trying to make.  I'll take the example above in bold as a case in point, you could quite easily split that sentence into two sentences and make it a lot easier to read.  For example:

*The bond between Naruto and Gaara isn't stronger than the one between Naruto and Sasuke even if Gaara understands Naruto's Bijuu situation.  Similarly, just because Hinata understands one portion of Naruto's character reasonably well, it doesn't mean she understands Naruto better than Sakura.*

I think that is more accessable.  I hope i managed to convey what you were saying.  But anyway, that's just an example.  Hope i'm helping. 

I'm still gonna disagree though. 

I don't think that Hinata understands Naruto better than Sakura.  For example, Hinata hasn't shown an understanding of why Naruto wants Sasuke back so badly.  That's something only one of team seven can really empathise with, because Hinata hasn't lost Sasuke the way Naruto and Saukra have.

I'm arguing that Hinata understands enough of Naruto to justify her love for him.  I gave you examples above of the ways in which she understands him, and considering those, i think she has exhibited a deep enough understanding of him to justify her love. 



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Naruto and Sakura KNOW each other on a close, emotionally connected, literary [meaning by manga devices] consistant basis - that's called DEVELOPMENT in the general sense _in contrast_ to the situation of ceasing to be a mere acquaintance to someone due to empathy based on personal experience - NOT knowing the other individual on a personal level or even spending time together. Hinata has had some scenes with Naruto, but he has never comprehended half of her feelings at all. Either cos 1. he is not intrigued or responsive to her - meaning no significant dynamic has come forth spontaneously from his side, 2. he DOESN'T REALLY KNOW HER. When someone doesn't know you like helk that's not even _close_ to an understanding relationship. Which is why, her feelings are not as justified for my standards to perform a sacrifice on such pretext without looking OVERRATED. That is all.



I think i can sum that all up by saying:  Naruto and Sakura are team mates.  Are you arguing that only team mates can end up in a romantic pairing?  Because that's how it seems.  I've shown you (above) how interaction between Naruto and Hinata has developed their relationship.  Whereas, by mentioning the importance of such things as "spending time together" it would seem that you feel that only team mates can be paired.

Put it this way, how is Hinata meant to be able to compare to Sakura when Sakura will spend more time with Naruto by just being his team mate?  The answer is in what i have said all along, the significance of scenes has to be taken into account.  Spending time together only means you have spent time together.  If you have meaningful conversation in that time, whether it is a short or long time, that means more than merely sharing day to day life.  That's what i think anyway.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Ok. But take in count he has never been particularly responsive to her UNLIKE to Sakura. She is one of the only characters Naruto has approached for very particular reasons. I'm serious about this. *His relating to her is very vague and is given the context of romantic interest.*
> 
> That _cannot_ be ignored or underestimated if you don't think Naruto is gay for Sasuke.



The bolded:  You're saying "His relating to her is given the context of romantic interest"?  Isn't that a pro NaruHina point in the midst of your anti-NaruHina arguement?

But anyway...

In response to her resolve to fight Neji, Naruto says "I never knew Hinata was this cool".

In response to her defeat by Neji, Naruto swears an oath in her blood.  There is *follow up* to this when Naruto asks "is Hinata watching?" after he beats Neji.

In response to her encouragement in the training field, Naruto admits that she has made him feel better.  She changes in his eyes, becoming someone he really likes.

Those are examples of him being responsive to her.  Show me where he is unresponsive to her...  Again, you're just making baseless statements...

Continued below.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 30, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Once again Anti-NaruSaku brings up the "follow up card". This is shounen. This is Sakura stuck between Sasuke and Naruto. This is Naruto stuck between Sasuke and Sakura.
> 
> *There isn't supposed to necessarily be any follow up card so soon.*
> 
> ...



I've not been mentioning SasuSaku... and i don't know that much about it either.  I'm just debating the flaws of NaruSaku, not how different people utilise different arguments.  Put the irrelevant agenda aside for a moment and let's get back on topic... 

Bolded:  But you agree that there has to be follow up at some point?  The fact you used the words "so soon" led me to believe this is what you meant.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> My point is that this is PART 2. Naruto is *stuck* between Sasuke and Sakura. And I'm sorry, the Poal was emotional impact. Unless you think Naruto understands Sakura's desire to be acknowledged only by Sasuke cos he's gay for him too, I suggest you revaluate Naruto's feelings for that girl who choked on her tears realizing Naruto always understood her feelings and "thanking" [but no OMFG! cos it isn't SasuSaku] *him on presumed realization of his in her regards.*



When you say stuck, do you mean "his feelings are conflicted between"?  The sentence would read "Naruto's feelings are conflicted between Sasuke and Sakura".  If this is what you mean, i'm sorry but i'm going to have to ask you to prove it...  You can't just make statements and then expect me to know what i'm countering.

And Sakura "choked on her tears" because Sasuke had left.  The proof?  Sakura starts crying *before* her realisation that Naruto understood her feelings.  What would make her cry before she had realised this?  Sasuke.

That last bolded bit i don't understand.  Actually, it?s the "his in her regards" that confuses me...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> And for the millionth time males will NOT be consumed by their supposed love interest in this manga like the girls.
> Ever realized that you barely have any MALE character to compare Naruto's romantic interest in Sakura with except for Lee, whose thing for Sakura has been unaddressed in ANY way [unlike his in Part 2]!?
> 
> There is no saying for sure how serious Naruto is about Sakura, but, without NaruSasu, it's pretty damn evident he tried really damn hard esp compared to the "evidence" SasuSaku uses on itself.



So you're saying that because we've only been given two examples of male romantic interest, one of them must be serious?  That's pretty flawed logic...

And "pretty damn evident he tried really damn hard"?  At what?  To get Sasuke back?  Yeah.  To win Sakura over?  No.  I've already covered (with evidence) why i think that Naruto isn't seriously pursuing Sakura so i'm not going to repeat myself.

But again, i'm having to draw your arguments out of your vague words.  I'm sorry if i'm misinterpreting you but it's really not my fault.  When you say "pretty damn evident" you've got to back that up with something other than more conjecture.  Like i said, part of debating is making yourself clear.  I can't do all the work here. 

Continued below.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Apr 30, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Yeah. It's so poor for Sakura to *grow* a romantic love for Naruto



No, it's poor for Sakura to be motivated to make her move off the back of someone else's actions.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Sakura's feelings are not obvious. They never have been towards Naruto. The simple fact she has not taken romantic intiative either shows she has not reached that conclusion or doesn't feel like that, but that doesn't mean the possibility isn't clearly there. Cos Naruto is NOT like a brother to Sakura even if her feelings do not prove to have romantic impulse.  The way she has been impressed by Naruto throughout the manga is too suggestive.



Am i far off if i sum up by saying what i've been saying all along?  Her feelings are ambiguous.  The scenes can mean different things.  Therefore, we need follow up to make them unambiguous.

Can we agree on that?



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> CONFIDENCE ISSUES
> 
> They don't get rid of Sakura's carefully PORTRAYED feelings towards Naruto I'm afraid. Poor Yamato. The notion seems to just downplay whatever the Naruto/Sakura interaction can have to me and therefore I refuse to follow such line of thought even if I LIKE TO BELIEVE hers are actions based on platonic feelings in reaction to Naruto's feelings for her and her care for his wellbeing etc..cos after all this guy just happens to make her promises of a life-time



"Carefully portrayed feelings".  Yes, they are "carefully portrayed".  And i'm not arguing that because those feelings are a result of "confidence issues", it erases them.  I was *suggesting* another reason for her feelings, not arguing it as fact.  The fact that i can plausibly do that makes the scene ambiguous.  I mean, it's ambiguous by its very nature because Sakura doesn't finish her sentence.  That scene pretty much defines ambiguous.

So we have to return to follow up.  Which there hasn't been.  Yet.  And there might never be.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> [/SPOILER]
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Aha, evidence again!  So you're saying that the speech was not justifying her reasons for protecting him, but to show why her life was no longer worth living?  That seems to be the only way to reconcile your view of the confession with her attacking Pain.  Again, i'm having to guess that your "point" was that it was a suicidal act.

It's hard for me not to just leave that hanging and hopefully allow you to realise how strange that sounds, but i do think that is wrong.  Hinata confessed to justify her reasons for *protecting* him.  Naruto did ask why after all.  You're focusing on the fact that she lost rather than the fact she was *trying*.  The proof of that is when you say "Pein pwning her 5 secs later can support the point".






			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Which can never change cos...ambiguity isn't valid



Sorry, i wasn't clear enough then.  I should have said:

"I just think that it goes too far to pair them. It's mutual friendship but neither sided romance.  *Yet*."

The ambiguity has to be dissolved by follow up.  Like i said, i think we can agree on that. 



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I'm countering your point by pointing out the insignificance in comparison to what I consider significant development for a mutual relationship. Cos romance just happens to be something extremely ARBITUARY with the need of also mutual development to be something strong and lasting.



Your counterpoint is circular logic and self-fullfilling.  Let me explain this.  You think that NaruHina is less significant than NaruSaku.  And you're using your belief that NaruSaku is more significant to prove that argument...

That's not proof...



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Yeah...right  this is where YOU aren't giving me any evidence. If you can't prove something is friendship that means it's not completely unambiguous for romance! Cos you don't have the counter statement of either Sakura saying OMG! I still LOVE Sasuke or Oh gee Naruto, you're like a brother to me.



No, you misunderstood me.  In fact, i think that you misread me.  I said that romantically NaruSaku was completely *ambiguous*.



			
				xxxturkey said:
			
		

> Completely ambiguous in terms of romance.



Therefore, by completely ambiguous i mean that it might be romance or it might not.  The point i was making was that we don't have enough evidence to prove either "unromantic" or "romantic" on any of the NaruSaku moments.  Depending on who you are and how you look at them, they can be interpreted as merely friendship, or all the way up to love.  Therefore, romantically, NaruSaku is "Completely ambiguous".

Do you disagree?

Your point would have been valid if i had said "unambiguous".  In fact, i suspect you thought that was what i said because you mention the word "unambiguous" yourself.  I certainly didn't.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> I've expressed my view on this and I hope you've finally understood or we're just going to have to give up on each other.



I understand your view, i just think you're wrong.  Hence why i'm here, still debating.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't know for yourself what it means to see Hinata in 437 flashbacking herself simply *watching* Naruto I'm afraid you'll never get my point about what the relationship lacks.



Oh, this is about the fact that she didn't approach him?  You're making a big deal out of a small thing really...

For starters, Hinata did not believe in herself.  She says so herself.  With her own self worth issues, how would she compare to a boy who is the complete opposite of her?  Is it so unbelievable to think that she didn't think she would be worthy of him?  Or that she was afraid of rejection?  Think about her levels of confidence at the point at which she is watching him.

Similarly, if your issues with Hinata are about her "obviously not being able to realise how alone he was if she didn't go to him when she was younger", then there's something else to consider.  How old was Hinata when she was first watching him?  You're expecting Hinata, at such a young age, to put all of the pieces of Naruto's character together and arrive at the idea that she should go to him?  He wants the recognition of the whole village.  To Hinata at that point, what is she compared to the whole village?  Furthermore, like you said, she's *looking back*.  But that only means that she realises these things *now* and not necessarily at the time.  You can't apply her thoughts now to the thoughts of her younger self.

To sum up, your idea of what the realationship "lacks" stems from the fact that at a young age Hinata didn't manage to:

A) Instantly recognise that Naruto needed recognition.
and then
B) Get over her crippling shyness and lack of self belief *on her own*.

So basically, i'm trying to prove that the fact that she didn't go to him then doesn't mean as much as you believe.  But if you have a different opinion, go ahead and make your argument. 



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Naruto has had more mutual interaction and understanding with Shikamaru, hell god knows even Choji. Naruto has been with them in death situations and they support him in his pursuit of Sasuke. *They're on the covers with him as if they were best buddies.* Shikamaru has been with him when Gaara attempted murder on Lee. He noticed Naruto's pain for Sasuke when the former came back. These things all happened nicely spread throughout the manga and were shone on for what they were worth in relation to Naruto, and there's no comparison to prove any point for NaruHina. And that's all I'm going to say to counter your assumptions cos I'm not going to waste time showing you the relevence of his brothers of the Leaf who risked their lives to bring Sasuke back. These dudes are brought up in the VotE. Unlike Hinata, just saying.



Oh.  My.  (Insert deity here).  You *are* trying to say that Naruto is more friends with the rest of the cast than he is with Hinata...

Hinata is also on covers with Naruto... Volume 34 for example... so what?  Either they're all significant or none of them are.  Please don't read selectively.

But i don't understand how you can just (continually) dismiss the development that Naruto and Hinata have shared.  Naruto has said "He likes people like her" and i think that's a solid indication he thinks of her as a friend.  What are your conditions for Naruto accepting a friendship, or your reasons for thinking that Naruto doesn't see her as a friend?  I've given you my proof that there is a relationship there, where is yours to prove there isn't?  You can't just keep saying "lack of development" to me when i'm showing development to you.  You've got to prove me wrong.

It's easy to attack, try defending your assertions.

All done.  Going to bed.  Have a good one. 

Later.


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 30, 2009)

I am quite impressed by your amount of research on this subject



Tyrannos said:


> And it's very fair to bring up Lee's confession to Sakura.   Kishimoto tends to use parallels quite a bit, especially with significant moments.



I can see why people think this, but I have difficulty seeing the parallel, really.  Lee pretty much ran up to Sakura in the street, Hinata jumped in the middle of the battle.  Hence, Sakura rejected Lee before he risked his life and she got to see how awesome he was; whereas Naruto hasn't even had a chance to reply.  In any case, he's more likely to be grateful rather than offended.

And Lee's offer was pretty much portrayed as ridiculous, I mean, he's Lee.  I may be biased about Hinata's, but it definitely seemed more profound than Lee's did.  So I find it hard to believe it'll end the same.  


Which really, Sakura did kinda have a thing with Lee going for a while there.  With a little more push it could've easily gone further.



Tyrannos said:


> Yes, he said he had the ending figured out within the first couple of chapters, pairings and all.  :



You're probably joking here, but I'm a little gullible, so I'll just make sure.  Cause I find it very hard to believe that he knew about Madarra Uchiha when he wrote in Sasuke.



Tyrannos said:


> If anything, the romantic loose ends will be with Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura.



It's very easy to see these three as the Love Triangle that gets resolved.  (I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but it seems like it.)  But as I've mentioned before, love triangles don't always end with the major guy getting the major girl.  For instance: Harry, Hermoine, and Ron. Arwen, Aragorn, and Eowyn.  Luke, Leia, and Han (different reasons, sure, but point holds).  Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman .  It's not uncommon for good writers to take a secondary character and make her the love interest for the hero.

Yes, the romantic loose ends will be resolved, or at least hinted at a resolution.  The question is with who.

...

Now I'm wondering if that wink meant you were joking.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Apr 30, 2009)

*XXXTurkey*, Hinata understands Naruto's pain for _lack of recognition_  there is nothing you proved against my point on how she doesn't understand his pain of loneliness or only understands him in relation to herself. Why? Cos she has never done anything for him during those years of his suffering nor ever defended him openly on that regard.

Yeah, it's really great Hinata could *think* all that about Naruto.

And I never said Naruto didn't want to get back at Neji for Hinata. What I was saying is that was where it ended. He understood her and responded to that. That's where it ends. Being responsive due to the event at hand is what I meant with circumstantial. And event at hand can make a person something for another in a certain degree of significance. And Hinata didn't enter a greater degree than nice friend-comrade he had a good opinion of. He never sought her for anything more after seeing her give everything she got and receiving her support. Dynamic is important for romance and significant relationship material you know. And for the one-hundreth time, I'm not going to waste time making a wonderfully explained debate against NaruHina with NaruSaku since it takes me a lot more effort to write in comprehensive English [I don't live in an English-speaking country] and I reason only in relation to what makes sense to me [SasuNaru ]. I must be expecting too much from you to follow what I'm saying when I refer to HUGE scene without having to point out every single panel in it.
Sakura fucking flashbacked the time Naruto was transformed as Sasuke asking what she thought _of him_. There Sakura declared she saw Naruto as someone annoying who she didn't give two shits about. After she does so she sobs and thanks HIM.

My compliments for making Sakura look like she doesn't have any significant emotional response to Naruto when it comes to Sasuke-kun.

For me both NaruSaku and NaruHina are petty *romantically*, so go head and complain how I suck at debating for them, I don't care. If I bring up SasuSaku in comparison it's for my own amusement as a sideship of NaruHina, not for you.

You also abuse my use of ambiguity. By the relationships I describe as being ambiguous it means there is evidence that counters the label of friendship. Therefore they aren't less significant than a one-sided relationship for romance. Kishi doesn't put stuff there for the lulz. Though I can see why one doesn't think Sakura loves Naruto romantically or him pursuing her seriously doesn't mean NaruHina makes more sense.

Naruto strived to be liked by Sakura in Part 1. This is canon. Sakura thanked him and said he _always understood AND helped her_. She realized this shit after flashbacking the way she badmouthed Naruto [who had realized why he liked her in that scene].

You have no way to show he doesn't have significant romantic feelings for Sakura when he continues to show a such predisposition [has blushes of admiration, wants dates, shows disappointment when possibility fails (ex. scolding Sai in the ramen scene)]. The way he gives her feelings importance isn't ignorable in Part 2, which is why one who ignores NaruSasu can say he still feels the same as in Part 1.

And instead at nitpicking at how I pointed out how Naruto and Shikamaru etc. show signs of intimate friendship towards each other on covers pay more attention to why I find the basis of their mutual interaction throughout the entire manga more substantial than Hinata's stuttering over Naruto.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 30, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Given that, isn't it possible that a character like Hinata could become equally pivotal?  I mean, lets face it, half the development of characters in this series is done through flashbacks.  Prior to Chouji's fight with Jirouyou, he had no real background.  Sakura's relationship with Ino only came out through flashbacks in their fight.  All we had for Sasuke was that he was a genius who Naruto hated, and then all of a sudden at the end we got this "enormous unspoken bond that's existed since childhood days."  And now in Part II he's this obsession of Naruto's.
> 
> See, actually, this is an argument of how LITTLE Kishimoto had planned out at the start of his series.  That's often the way with comics, you start with a fun character, and before you know it, he's run off someplace else entirely.  Even if he did plan out Sakura's romantic involvement, there's no guarantee he would stick with that.


True.  I just that that'd be interesting to bring up.  What Kishimoto-sensei says about the series is just as important as what he writes.



Tyrannos said:


> BTW, while looking at DB3 I saw a pie chart of the Bloodtypes and almost forgot about the Bloodtype arguement.   If you don't know, A-types like Hinata don't go with B-Types like Naruto.   (You be surprised how culturally significant this is in Japan).


I laugh at this.  According to the Chinese Zodiac, my parrents aren't compatable.  I view superstition as waffle.



XXXTurkey said:


> Oh.  My.  (Insert deity here).  You *are* trying to say that Naruto is more friends with the rest of the cast than he is with Hinata...
> 
> Hinata is also on covers with Naruto... Volume 34 for example... so what?  Either they're all significant or none of them are.  Please don't read selectively.


Yes, that's exactly what was being said.  Sure Hinata was on the covers, but never _with_ Naruto.

ZARU!



XXXTurkey said:


> But i don't understand how you can just (continually) dismiss the development that Naruto and Hinata have shared.  Naruto has said "He likes people like her" and i think that's a solid indication he thinks of her as a friend.


See the arguement made against Naruto thinking "I finally understand why I like Sakura-chan."


----------



## Mogami Kyoko (Apr 30, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Naruto does indeed know that Hinata has been watching him for a long time.
> Chapter 402 page 14
> Chapter 402 page 14
> 
> This surprised Naruto. He had no idea someone(other than Iruka) had already acknowledged him early on, before he had the power to earn anyone's acknowledgement.



This took me a moment to think about. 
But there's something I think you've missed. Naruto values his bonds and friendships more than acknowledgment. Therefore, even though Naruto, no doubt, really appriciated that he was acknowledged by Hinata, at the time, she wasn't really his friend. She wasn't accepted as his friend until they had that talk at the chunnin exams. 

Either way, when you think about it, whether Hinata has acknowledged him since the beginning of time or not, it DID NOT change how Naruto felt about Sakura. Nor did it cause him to change his feeling towards Hinata into love.

Besides. Who acknowledged Naruto first or not, isn't a good basis for a romantic relationship. If Naruto started liking Hinata because she "acknowledged him first", then that would make for a pretty poor relationship, wouldn't it?

Naruto and Hinata have spent about 15 mins at the most together in the manga; in total. They have hardly spent any time together at all. That's one of the reasons why I say that Naruto and Hinata don't hardly know anything about each other.

But when you look at Naruto and Sakura, they're around each other 97% of the manga. They know each other very, very well. They've eaten together. Fought together, spent time with each other, traveled together, and so on.
Basically everything Naruto and Hinata haven't done together.
Naruto and Sakura are best friends. Naruto is still in love with Sakura though, and Sakura is obviously growing romantic feelings for Naruto.
Not everybody may agree with that, but that's how I see it. And that's how a lot of other people see it too.

Plus, there's something I heard once. "Best friends make the best/healthiest couples".  




> Nice list.But after reading all that, I came to realize that a lot of the major development between Naruto and Sakura doesn't really relate to Naruto himself, but were all about, or related to Sasuke...
> But some were okay though.



Out of the 19-20 NaruSaku moments I posted, only 11 of them had Sasuke there while the moment happened, or he was related somehow.
But it really doesn't matter whether they were related to Sasuke or not. Sometimes events with other people or other things can push people closer.
And even though 11 of them are Sasuke related, Naruto and Sakura's development all throughout part 1 are genuine. 



By the way, I think you posted something a while ago that I never answered. 
You mentioned something like, "Part 2's theme is all about accepting other people"?
I'm gonna have to disagree on that. I don't recall it ever being like that.
If I remember correctly, part 2's theme is *Bonds.* And that's what the whole series has been all about.
Besides, even if the theme was "accepting other people", that doesn't mean "accepting other people romantically".
Accepting other people can mean a few things. Becoming friends, respecting others, acknowledging others, ect.
It hardly ever means "accepting other people romantically."


----------



## Tyrannos (Apr 30, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I laugh at this.  According to the Chinese Zodiac, my parrents aren't compatable.  I view superstition as waffle.



Well Horoscopes are funny.  Especially those who take it seriously.  

But none-the-less, Japanese really do take their bloodtypes seriously.  I heard a story once, of a happy Japanese couple that was together for years.  One day they took a blood test and learned that one was A-type and the other was B-type.   And they immediately broke up.



Afalstein said:


> I can see why people think this, but I have difficulty seeing the parallel, really.  Lee pretty much ran up to Sakura in the street, Hinata jumped in the middle of the battle.  Hence, Sakura rejected Lee before he risked his life and she got to see how awesome he was; whereas Naruto hasn't even had a chance to reply.  In any case, he's more likely to be grateful rather than offended.
> 
> And Lee's offer was pretty much portrayed as ridiculous, I mean, he's Lee.  I may be biased about Hinata's, but it definitely seemed more profound than Lee's did.  So I find it hard to believe it'll end the same.



It's not the confession moment in itself, but Lee's action in protecting Sakura from the Sound Trio.   In which Lee did it out of affection for Sakura.



Afalstein said:


> Which really, Sakura did kinda have a thing with Lee going for a while there.  With a little more push it could've easily gone further.



No, Sakura never had a thing for Lee.   Her heart was firmly set on Sasuke.

With Lee, she was appricative that he put his life on the line in protecting her.  And later, she felt bad that Lee had his dreams crushed by Gaara.



Afalstein said:


> You're probably joking here, but I'm a little gullible, so I'll just make sure.  Cause I find it very hard to believe that he knew about Madarra Uchiha when he wrote in Sasuke.



No, Kishimoto actually said a long time ago that he already had the ending pictured in his mind.   

And no, it's not as hard as you make it out to be.   He obviously started with the simple storyline of "the alienated, loser ending up having his dreams come true", that's the story of Naruto in a nutshell.   And over the years before Part 2, he had plenty of time to fine-tune the deeper details of the story.  




Afalstein said:


> It's very easy to see these three as the Love Triangle that gets resolved.  (I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but it seems like it.)  But as I've mentioned before, love triangles don't always end with the major guy getting the major girl.  For instance: Harry, Hermoine, and Ron. Arwen, Aragorn, and Eowyn.  Luke, Leia, and Han (different reasons, sure, but point holds).  Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman .  It's not uncommon for good writers to take a secondary character and make her the love interest for the hero.
> 
> Yes, the romantic loose ends will be resolved, or at least hinted at a resolution.  The question is with who.



You shouldn't use Western examples when we are talking about Japanese Mangas.  You are dealing with Apples and Oranges.

In most Shonen Mangas, the Lead Male typically ends up with the women they most associate themselves with or have a fondness for.


So with Naruto's affection still being solely on Sakura.  The odds are still very strong IMHO, that NaruSaku will be the definitive pairing in the end.  And this is backed up with Sakrua's feelings starting to be in question.



Afalstein said:


> Now I'm wondering if that wink meant you were joking.



You're looking too deeply with that wink.   Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura are the main characters, and the ending will revolve around them.  Secondary characters like Hinata, Lee, Shikamaru, and the others will get a brief mention.

For instance, with Shikamaru, we will see him in his 20s, teaching Asuma and Kurenai's child.   Ino, probably nagging at whoever she ended up with.


----------



## percy (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm sure if naruto wanted, he'd give Hinata a chance because of his knack for making friends who are just as flawed as him. You can't really say Sakura's flawed. She's normal, and technically one the most competant ninja's for her gender, hergrowth was probably the most amazing out of the konoha tweleve which is kinda like Sasuke's growth. Naruto and Hinata still correlate in terms of being behind, if you know what I'm saying.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Apr 30, 2009)

percy said:


> I'm sure if naruto wanted, he'd give Hinata a chance because of his knack for making friends who are just as flawed as him. You can't really say Sakura's flawed. She's normal, and technically one the most competant ninja's for her gender, hergrowth was probably the most amazing out of the konoha tweleve which is kinda like Sasuke's growth. Naruto and Hinata still correlate in terms of being behind, if you know what I'm saying.



This observation is partially erroneous however, because Sakura did play all of part 1 catching up to her peers, where you could actually say that Hinata got out of her funk early on during the...chuunin exams. Naruto even commented on more than one occasion of Sakura being similar to himself and that being one of the reasons why he was attracted to her(not even counting the fact that Naruto has not been a "loser" to the village for a long time, this theme of being "bound by similar circumstance" would not even fly theoretically, atleast concerning NH. But this isnt even about that..

What you must remember is that even regardless of if you were right about your statment or not, being bound by being a "loser" does not validate any pairing.


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 30, 2009)

Well, the point I was trying to make with the SakuLee thing was that Sakura did become appreciative after that event.  I wasn't trying to suggest that she ever fell in love with him (fun as that would be.  Lee is pretty awesome).  But she was bringing him flowers and stuff, so there was a light friendship there (a great difference from her earlier rejection).  

So at the least, the parallel argues for a much stronger relationship between Hinata and Naruto.  Even more, because Sakura started thinking of Lee as an obnoxious wierdo before he saved her, and she was obsessed with Sasuke at the time.  Naruto has demonstrated he respects Hinata (at the very least), and while he doubtless retains some hopes of Sakura, he's not what I would call obsessed with her.  So Hinata has a better starting point than Lee, and much less to work against.

And as I've said before, I don't quite see the parallel either, so I don't think that necessarily holds.



Tyrannos said:


> No, Kishimoto actually said a long time ago that he already had the ending pictured in his mind.
> 
> And no, it's not as hard as you make it out to be.   He obviously started with the simple storyline of "the alienated, loser ending up having his dreams come true", that's the story of Naruto in a nutshell.   And over the years before Part 2, he had plenty of time to fine-tune the deeper details of the story.



Okay, so you weren't joking.  I can buy your argument about him having that simple storyline in mind when he started (I mean, one needs a general idea, and THAT one could fit just about anything).  But I sincerely doubt he had the ending pictured, unless he was talking about Part I.  Even if Kishi had "the deeper details" of the plot worked out before Part II came along, that itself could easily change.

Madara Uchiha didn't even exist until recently.  He wasn't referenced, there was no "legend of the last Uchiha," nothing.  Not even among the Akatsuki.  There was little or no foreshadowing of his revelation as Tobi.  Personally, I don't even think he existed when Tobi did, because Tobi sure looks like a lousy villain.  (But that's just me)  Sure, he's supposed to be one of the two statues at the Valley of the End, but you could have made that other statue be anybody.  And obviously Madarra is going to have great importance to the end of the story.

Kishi is a manga writer.  Writes in weekly installments.  As more chapters are added, the characters change.  Sometimes they go in directions completely different from what the writer originally planned, and the story changes.  Ask any writer.  As I've observed elsewhere, there have been three different re-tellings of the Uchiha slaughter, and in all probability there's another one coming up.  I mean, heck, Kishi couldn't even be completely sure the manga would last this long.    He might've had an extremely vague idea of the ending, and even of the pairings, at the beginning, but simply because it's so vague, it's subject to change.



> You shouldn't use Western examples when we are talking about Japanese Mangas. You are dealing with Apples and Oranges.
> 
> In most Shonen Mangas, the Lead Male typically ends up with the women they most associate themselves with or have a fondness for.
> 
> So with Naruto's affection still being solely on Sakura. The odds are still very strong IMHO, that NaruSaku will be the definitive pairing in the end. And this is backed up with Sakrua's feelings starting to be in question.



Part of the role of this debate is to debate whether Naruto's affection is really on Sakura, or whether it's such a strong affection.  But I'm not going to get into that, because it's largely a subjective issue.

And it might be unreasonable of me to compare Japanese manga to Western Literature, but the two do influence each other. But my point was that the main girl and the main guy do not always get together.  Even you admit that not all shounen manga has this.  Samaurai Champloo has a similar three-man-team, and neither of the guy's ends up marrying the girl.

Plus, other people have observed that they've never seen a shy girl get turned down in a shounen before.  Actually I think shy ones have an inherent advantage as far as Japanese culture goes.  And Hinata definitely has an edge.  One of the sites I consulted described her as the image of the perfect Japanese wife.  Granted, Kishi may not go for that.  But culture is not all against hinata.


----------



## faceoffkang** (Apr 30, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Samaurai Champloo has a similar three-man-team, and neither of the guy's ends up marrying the girl.


Lol this is funny because Mugen,Jin and Fuu can be compared to Naruto,Sas[gay] and Sakura in some aspects but what seperates the two is that Mugen and Fuu share MUTAL feelings but Mugen's just too untamed and split between so they don't end up together, while we're here trying to figure out if NaruSaku share those MUTAL feelings.


----------



## faceoffkang** (Apr 30, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Plus, other people have observed that they've never seen a shy girl get turned down in a shounen before.  Actually I think shy ones have an inherent advantage as far as Japanese culture goes.  And Hinata definitely has an edge.  One of the sites I consulted described her as the image of the perfect Japanese wife.  Granted, Kishi may not go for that.  But culture is not all against hinata.



I also agree in the manga i've read the shy gurl doesn't get turned down and the gurls like Sakura either don't show their feelings or they get rejected.(in some FEW cases the Sakura-type girl isnt rejected)
About Hinata being the perfect Jap. wife I certainly agree in a sense. The way I see it Hinata is an old-school girl and Sakura's new-school...


----------



## wiffy (Apr 30, 2009)

I eneter the race as NaruSaku.


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 30, 2009)

> I also agree in the manga i've read the shy gurl doesn't get turned down and the gurls like Sakura either don't show their feelings or they get rejected.(in some FEW cases the Sakura-type girl isnt rejected)
> About Hinata being the perfect Jap. wife I certainly agree in a sense. The way I see it Hinata is an old-school girl and Sakura's new-school...



It's an interesting question, definitely.  You can view that statement about Hinata either in a positive or a negative way.  I'm traditional myself, but I can see why people might think it sorta cheap.  

The question you get then is: is Kishi more an old-school person, or a new-school?


----------



## 王志鍵 (Apr 30, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> This took me a moment to think about.
> But there's something I think you've missed. Naruto values his bonds and friendships more than acknowledgment. Therefore, even though Naruto, no doubt, really appriciated that he was acknowledged by Hinata, at the time, she wasn't really his friend. She wasn't accepted as his friend until they had that talk at the chunnin exams.


I have to disagree.At that time, Naruto didn't have as much friends as he has today.Like I've said before, many people looked down on him.His main goal was still to earn everyone's acknowledgement. Acknowledgement was more important to him than friendship, since acknowledgement is the road that leads to friendships.Even though Naruto values friendship more than acknowledgement now, it was, and  still is very important to him.



Serena-hime said:


> Either way, when you think about it, whether Hinata has acknowledged him since the beginning of time or not, it DID NOT change how Naruto felt about Sakura. Nor did it cause him to change his feeling towards Hinata into love.


I'm not saying it changed his feelings towards Hinata into love,but what I am saying is that Naruto see's Hinata in a different light.


Serena-hime said:


> Besides. Who acknowledged Naruto first or not, isn't a good basis for a romantic relationship. If Naruto started liking Hinata because she "acknowledged him first", then that would make for a pretty poor relationship, wouldn't it?


A good basis for a relationship is how much they care for each other.We all know that Hinata cares alot about Naruto.Naruto also cares alot about the people who are important to him.
"R word"
I just added this because it relates to what I said.



Serena-hime said:


> Naruto and Hinata have spent about 15 mins at the most together in the manga; in total. They have hardly spent any time together at all. That's one of the reasons why I say that Naruto and Hinata don't hardly know anything about each other.


The time they spent together were all Major development.Keep that in mind.
Also, the time Hinata spent watching Naruto is *Years*.



Serena-hime said:


> But when you look at Naruto and Sakura, they're around each other 97% of the manga. They know each other very, very well. They've eaten together. Fought together, spent time with each other, traveled together, and so on.
> Basically everything Naruto and Hinata haven't done together.
> Naruto and Sakura are best friends. Naruto is still in love with Sakura though, and Sakura is obviously growing romantic feelings for Naruto.
> Not everybody may agree with that, but that's how I see it. And that's how a lot of other people see it too.


They are the main characters.It's typical for main characters to get most of the panel time.Hinata is just a supporting character,so it's obvious that she wouldn't be getting as much panel time as the main characters of the story.
Also, just because two characters spend alot of time together, doesn't necessarily make them a good couple. Panel time doesn't always equal  Development.


Serena-hime said:


> Plus, there's something I heard once. "Best friends make the best/healthiest couples".


Best friends also develop a brotherly and sisterly bond with each other.





Serena-hime said:


> Out of the 19-20 NaruSaku moments I posted, only 11 of them had Sasuke there while the moment happened, or he was related somehow.
> But it really doesn't matter whether they were related to Sasuke or not. Sometimes events with other people or other things can push people closer.
> And even though 11 of them are Sasuke related, Naruto and Sakura's development all throughout part 1 are genuine.


I forgot to mention, alot of the moments you posted contained very little development or are just plain friendship moments.




Serena-hime said:


> By the way, I think you posted something a while ago that I never answered.
> You mentioned something like, "Part 2's theme is all about accepting other people"?
> I'm gonna have to disagree on that. I don't recall it ever being like that.
> If I remember correctly, part 2's theme is *Bonds.* And that's what the whole series has been all about.
> ...


Actually in one of his interviews, Kishimoto stated that the overall theme of Part II is *"People accepting other people"*. It wasn't me that said that.
check it:
"R word"

"People accepting other people" can mean alot of things. But accepting is still accepting.


----------



## faceoffkang** (Apr 30, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Actually in one of his interviews, Kishimoto stated that the overall theme of Part II is *"People accepting other people"*. It wasn't me that said that.
> check it:
> Wikipedia's answer
> 
> "People accepting other people" can mean alot of things. But accepting is still accepting.



People accepting others is so vague...whats the point of Kishi saying that just gives us all another factor with a value we dont know


----------



## Forlong (Apr 30, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> A good basis for a relationship is how much they care for each other.We all know that Hinata cares alot about Naruto.Naruto also cares alot about the people who are important to him.
> Wikipedia's answer
> I just added this because it relates to what I said.


Naruto and Sakura also care about each other a great deal.  Is it somehow platonic between Naruto and Sakura, but not between Naruto and Hinata?


----------



## Tenrol (Apr 30, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Okay, so you weren't joking.  I can buy your argument about him having that simple storyline in mind when he started (I mean, one needs a general idea, and THAT one could fit just about anything).  But I sincerely doubt he had the ending pictured, unless he was talking about Part I.  Even if Kishi had "the deeper details" of the plot worked out before Part II came along, that itself could easily change.



Here the proof then. Kishi was already at part 2 when he said that. and he is decided so i doubt he'll change anything.



> SJ: Oda-sensei says he knows how One Piece will end---do you know how Naruto will end?
> 
> MK: Yes, I have the last episode clearly drawn in my mind. I've already decided on the layout, text, and scenes. Not just the story ideas, but the visual ideas are solid.
> 
> All I have to do is just head toward the ending I have, but there are still so many things that need to be resolved before reaching that point. Maybe I have thrown in too many ideas, so I need to wrap them up neatly.


----------



## Caddy (Apr 30, 2009)

Just gonna come in and share my two cents:

NaruHina WILL happen. Looking at it from an objective point of view (pay no heed to my sig <______<), I don't see how it can't.

1. It will make Sakura look like a complete bitch. Up to this point, she's never shown any true romantic interest in Naruto, AND she all but knows Hinata loves Naruto. To go after Naruto now would make he look awful and OOC, because the connection between Naruto and Sakura is more brother/sister than anything else.

2. If Naruto rejects her after all that, it not only makes him look like a dick and go against his character, but also goes against the main theme of "people accepting other people". It just doesn't work.

3. Why go through all the effort what with the confession and everything only to completely crap all over it? I doubt Kishi would put that in there unless something was to come of it.

4. Let's be honest here, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that NaruHina is the most popular non-yaoi pairing in Naruto. Kishi would be alienating a lot of fans if he went with NaruSaku now.

There's just way to much pointing in NaruHina's favor. This isn't an argument of which pairing is better, it's the objective truth. It would be plain bad writing at this point, make Naruto's character look shitty, go against the theme of Naruto, and alienate the fanbase.


----------



## Kage (Apr 30, 2009)

Caddy said:


> 1. It will make Sakura look like a complete bitch. Up to this point, she's never shown any true romantic interest in Naruto, AND she all but knows Hinata loves Naruto. To go after Naruto now would make he look awful and OOC, because the connection between Naruto and Sakura is more brother/sister than anything else.


so much for being objective.


> 2. If Naruto rejects her after all that, it not only makes him look like a dick and go against his character, but also goes against the main theme of "people accepting other people". It just doesn't work.



how dare he not reciprocate feelings he's never had for her just because she has them for him. and he's never accepted hinata before now. not ever. not when he encouraged her during her fight with neji and certainly not after he admitted to 'liking people like her' not accepting her romantic advances means he rejects her as a character and therefore is going against the entire theme of the manga. sakura never accepted naruto's advances and sasuke never accepted hers and that's why they aren't even friends.


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Why go through all the effort what with the confession and everything only to completely crap all over it? I doubt Kishi would put that in there unless something was to come of it.



*Spoiler*: __ 



that remains to be seen. the last confession hasn't exactly shown great promise of wonderful things to come thus far.






> 4. Let's be honest here, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that NaruHina is the most popular non-yaoi pairing in Naruto. Kishi would be alienating a lot of fans if he went with NaruSaku now.


popularity means everything. that's why no character in naruto dies.
kishi created this story just for pairing fans and that's why naruhina has to happen and not the minority like NaruSaku.



> There's just way to much pointing in NaruHina's favor. This isn't an argument of which pairing is better, it's the objective truth. It would be plain bad writing at this point, make Naruto's character look shitty, go against the theme of Naruto, and alienate the fanbase.


nothing about this is objective let alone the truth.


----------



## JERITROLL (Apr 30, 2009)

Caddy said:


> Just gonna come in and share my two cents:
> 
> NaruHina WILL happen. Looking at it from an objective point of view (pay no heed to my sig <______<), I don't see how it can't.


Okay then, please ignore my pic in there then. Alright, let's go.



> 1. It will make Sakura look like a complete bitch. Up to this point, she's never shown any true romantic interest in Naruto, AND she all but knows Hinata loves Naruto. To go after Naruto now would make he look awful and OOC, because the connection between Naruto and Sakura is more brother/sister than anything else.



This is a bit on the ambiguous side. While Sakura has yet to be open about it, it doesn't rule out the possibility that she might have feelings for him. Before certain events occurred, Hinata had little time on-screen, and when she did have it, it was always presented in a 'fangirl' type fashion. It wasn't exactly the way that Sakura fawned over Sasuke, but it was as close as Hinata could be to this in-character. (Remember, not exactly the same because Sakura has always been more outgoing, while Hinata is a shy character)


*Spoiler*: __ 



In the same panel that Sakura is showing the thoughts about Hinata loving Naruto (by the way, those translations are a bit ambiguous. Not that it really matters, but if directly translated to convey the point, it's close enough), she looks far from pleased. If she were only seeing Naruto as a brother or friend, then I rather doubt that she'd look at him like that.






> 2.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Tag it my friend, we're in the House of Uzumaki, and the rules state that we have to spoiler tag the events that haven't occurred in the anime yet.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Again, as others have stated, the theme isn't about 'accepting other people, it's about bonds. It isn't against Naruto's character to reject Hinata if he does it in a way that comes across both sincerely and warmly; He obviously wouldn't going to be a jerk about it. 






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Why go through all the effort what with the confession and everything only to completely crap all over it? I doubt Kishi would put that in there unless something was to come of it.




*Spoiler*: __ 



That's a very good point, why would Kish have a confession for something he wouldn't have happen? Simple, for the same reasons he had a confession in Part 1 for Sakura. Now granted, you'd have to prove that Sakura doesn't love Sasuke in Part 2, which is something that we can't do at the moment. However, if such is indeed the case, then it would be for this very reason: To tie the loose ends of Hinata's character. Kishi had said in Volume 41 or 42 that he was going to keep his eyes on the finish line. This was something that needed to be addressed at one point or another, and this was, in his eyes, the perfect time to do so. (It's his story, he can tell it however he wants to, therefor it must be the right time, you all get what I mean, right?)







> 4. Let's be honest here, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that NaruHina is the most popular non-yaoi pairing in Naruto. Kishi would be alienating a lot of fans if he went with NaruSaku now.



Well, seeing as Kishi already has it plotted out, popularity really shouldn't matter. However, one thing to keep in mind; NaruHina isn't as popular in Japan, and this is where Kishi focuses a lot of his attention for what fans are saying. Over there, I believe reading that NaruHina and NaruSaku are supposed to be around the same numbers, but don't take that as fact, as I cannot back it up with solid facts at the moment. Another thing to keep in mind; most fans simply don't care. I don't think that a lot of people would drop it just because a pairing didn't go their way. I certainly wouldn't (be dissapointed, yes, but I like the series way too much to drop it for one thing I didn't like.).



> There's just way to much pointing in NaruHina's favor. This isn't an argument of which pairing is better, it's the objective truth. It would be plain bad writing at this point, make Naruto's character look shitty, go against the theme of Naruto, and alienate the fanbase.



Well, I tend to disagree, as there's just as much evidence that this could simply be the tying of loose ends. However, in the grand scheme of things, you and I simply cannot look at this without skewing what is shown a bit, so we must simply sit back and wait.


----------



## Hikui (Apr 30, 2009)

Forlong said:


> 1: He may very well have.  In research, I found out that Kishimoto-sensei originally didn't plan to make Hinata a ninja (making her even _less_ important to the plot), and didn't plan Sasuke at all!  Yet, as far as I can tell, Sakura was planned early and had a well defined roll.  So, I'd say her romance was ploted out at some point.
> 2: "I must break off my bonds."  Isn't that what Sasuke said.  He did have some sort of bond with Sakura.
> 3: Well, whatever...
> 4: Gald you're big enough to admit it.
> ...



Honestly, this was 'okay' in the beginning but it's starting to get annoying.

1. Afalstein covered it (yes, I'm that lazy)
2. That wasn't romantic. 
3. This is where you're supposed to say: You're right!
4. Thank you! 
5. Tropes are archetypes, so yeah. But I highly doubt Kishimoto goes and thinks: Oh, I'll give Sakura this tropes. That was my point. 

Not all tropes are main character centered, I was referring to romantic tropes in a shonen manga, where romance outside of the main character isn't that important. 

--
Tyrannos you're back 



Tyrannos said:


> It's been nearly 2 years since I brought this up in the debate and thought it was time to brush the dust off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I want a new poll, after everything that has passed. 
And Blood types O don't go with Blood types B, either. 
AB on the other hand goes with everyone, wanna try to guess who's AB?



Tyrannos said:


> Hey, those spoilers again!
> 
> Well with the means of a confession, but I wouldn't rule out Chapter 343 as insignificant.
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Maybe, maybe not. But it's still a possibility.(And Hinata will be more important that Rooki #1, it would be dumb if she wasn't). And yeah, I don't expect Kishimoto to get very hard on romance. I say it will be kind resolved (after Sasuke is saved, we'll see) and then BAM! Epilogue. There will be lot of complaining but it's very likely. Of course, we all want to be surprised.







Tyrannos said:


> I disagree with this website's analysis. Because Naruto's not torn between Sakura and Hinata.   Instead, Sasuke is most likely to be in this situation.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



That's why I didn't want to use tropes, I just thought that was the closest it could get. And about Sasuke...
*Spoiler*: __ 



he isn't torned between them, he's not interested in them. 







Tyrannos said:


> True, we are debating between individuals.  But here in the debate thread, we also represent our fanbases.  (In fact, people on all sides are reading our posts.  Some taking notes, others laughing their asses off at people's "stupidity".)



Agreed, but it's not fair to generalize, don't you think?




Tyrannos said:


> As for Naruto's relationship with Sakura, yes it's a powerful friendship, but there isn't anything that says that couldn't develop into something else.


Agreed, I just don't think it will be the case, but of course that is my personal opinion.




Tyrannos said:


> Gotta remember those spoilers.
> 
> And it's very fair to bring up Lee's confession to Sakura.   Kishimoto tends to use parallels quite a bit, especially with significant moments.


I guess...but I whole heatedly disagree it is supposed to be a parallel. 



Tyrannos said:


> You realize all those "romantic loose ends" tend to occur at the end of the mangas, right?   Which Naruto is expected to still well over 50 chapters away from the end.
> 
> If anything, the romantic loose ends will be with Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura.



Naruto is coming to an end. Might not be a close end (next 10 chapters) but it is coming to a conclusion (unless another BIG BAD is uncovered). It would be horribly done if the pairings (even when not that important plot wise) were dealt with two chapters before the end.



Daron said:


> I believe Naruto and Hinata would have cuter kids than Naruto and Sakura.



Kishimoto did say Sakura was not cute. 



Caddy said:


> 3. Why go through all the effort what with the confession and everything only to completely crap all over it? I doubt Kishi would put that in there unless something was to come of it.


@Caddy: Quoted for truth. 

And about Hinata is old school and Sakura is new school, I agree.
Hinata is sort of Yamato Nadeshiko and Sakura is sort of a Tsundere. 

@Afalstein:


----------



## Afalstein (Apr 30, 2009)

kageneko and Twilight Link bring up good points, so I'll address them together



kageneko said:


> popularity means everything. that's why no character in naruto dies.
> kishi created this story just for pairing fans and that's why naruhina has to happen and not the minority like NaruSaku.



True.  Very true.  But even granted that, popularity is still an important factor.  Kishi is as good a salesman as any.  While I don't think he's going to change the entire course of the series for the popularity of the thing, it's still got a claim on his attention.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> That's a very good point, why would Kish have a confession for something he wouldn't have happen? Simple, for the same reasons he had a confession in Part 1 for Sakura. Now granted, you'd have to prove that Sakura doesn't love Sasuke in Part 2, which is something that we can't do at the moment. However, if such is indeed the case, then it would be for this very reason: To tie the loose ends of Hinata's character. Kishi had said in Volume 41 or 42 that he was going to keep his eyes on the finish line. This was something that needed to be addressed at one point or another, and this was, in his eyes, the perfect time to do so. (It's his story, he can tell it however he wants to, therefor it must be the right time, you all get what I mean, right?)




*Spoiler*: __ 



This actually was a viable possibility in my eyes--before Hinata came back to life. In my opinion, Hinata dying at this point would've been perfectly acceptable.  Sad, sure, but bittersweetly fulfilling.  It would have tied up the ends of her character without causing any further problem.  In fact when I first heard about it, it did seem a fitting way for Hinata to die.

But now that she's alive, that changes.  I'm very much of Caddy's opinion in this matter, her being alive creates all sorts of problems for NaruSaku, while her being dead would've been very nice.  In fact, I would almost prefer it to Naruto turning her down at this point.  Essentially, Kishi had a perfect chance to tie up the Hinata subplot, and he didn't.  Why?  Either because he wants a whole another subplot with Sakura and Hinata dancing around each other, or because he wanted to begin a romance with NaruHina (guess which one I think).




Cool.  Someone quoted me as a supporting argument.


----------



## Krix (Apr 30, 2009)

Caddy said:


> Just gonna come in and share my two cents:
> 
> NaruHina WILL happen. Looking at it from an objective point of view (pay no heed to my sig <______<), I don't see how it can't.



..And this is where I come in.  Alright. 'OBJECTIVE' point of view. Got it.




> 1. *It will make Sakura look like a complete bitch*. Up to this point, she's never shown any true romantic interest in Naruto, AND she all but knows Hinata loves Naruto. To go after Naruto now would make he look awful and OOC, *because the connection between Naruto and Sakura is more brother/sister than anything else*.



lol obejective
 Brother/Sister? 
I don't recall brothers asking girls out on dates.  And the "sister" asking if she "looks more womanly now". That'd be pretty awkward.



> 2. If Naruto rejects her after all that, it not only makes him look like a dick and go against his character, but also goes against the main theme of "people accepting other people". It just doesn't work.



So just because Hinata confesses, AUTOMATICALLY - if Naruto doesn't accept, he's a jerk? I don't think so. People reject others all the time - mostly because they don't have FEELINGS FOR THEM.

*Just because he rejects her, does not mean he doesn't like her as a friend.*



> 3. Why go through all the effort what with the confession and everything only to completely crap all over it? I doubt Kishi would put that in there unless something was to come of it.


*
Kishimoto said he wanted to tie loose ends*. This is tying loose ends. SS got tied up with it's confession, *Sasuke rejected her*.

Kishi's not afraid of rejection at all.




> 4. Let's be honest here, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that NaruHina is the most popular non-yaoi pairing in Naruto. Kishi would be alienating a lot of fans if he went with NaruSaku now.



LOL OMG. 
NaruHina isn't that popular in Japan. It's pretty much only popular in the West. Does Kishimoto give a darn about his fans? Nah. Look at how much characters DIED in the manga. 




> There's just way to much pointing in NaruHina's favor. This isn't an argument of which pairing is better, it's the objective truth. It would be plain bad writing at this point, make Naruto's character look shitty, go against the theme of Naruto, and alienate the fanbase.



*Fanbase means nothing.*

I suggest looking up what objective means next time, because there is nothing like that in this post. =/


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## Mogami Kyoko (Apr 30, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> I have to disagree.At that time, Naruto didn't have as much friends as he has today.Like I've said before, many people looked down on him.His main goal was still to earn everyone's acknowledgement. Acknowledgement was more important to him than friendship, since acknowledgement is the road that leads to friendships.Even though Naruto values friendship more than acknowledgement now, it was, and  still is very important to him.
> 
> I'm not saying it changed his feelings towards Hinata into love,but what I am saying is that Naruto see's Hinata in a different light.



Naruto currently has all the acknowledgment he wants. He has a different goal now.

Yes, he see's Hinata in a different light than he did at first.
He saw her as a "Dark, creepy, weirdo" to "Friend".
That "different light" you said, isn't anything more than friendship.




> A good basis for a relationship is how much they care for each other.We all know that *Hinata cares alot about Naruto.Naruto also cares alot about the people who are important to him.*
> 
> I just added this because it relates to what I said.



I think you just smacked yourself with this statement.
Yes, Hinata cares about Naruto. BUT Naruto only cares about the people who are important to him? That's all his friends. Not Hinata.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Naruto is still in love with Sakura. And as long he still does, NaruHina can't happen.

Might I also point out, Naruto has a few people are are *MOST* important to him. I'll list these people:
Iruka, Sakura, Sasuke, Jiraiya. Possibly Tsunade, Yamato, Kakashi and Gaara.
But Hinata is certianly not on his "most important people" list. 

And as for the manga page you stuck on there; the "most precious person to you" speech from Haku. Currently, it is believed that Naruto's most precious person is either Sakura or Sasuke. But that's for another debate. 



> The time they spent together were all Major development.Keep that in mind.
> Also, the time Hinata spent watching Naruto is *Years*.



Please. Enough with the "Hinata has been watching Naruto for YEARS!" argument. That will not get you anywhere. How long Hinata has been watching Naruto does not matter. Hinata watching Naruto holds NO mutual development. For there to be a pairing to happen, there needs to be *MUTUAL* development.

The time Hinata and Naruto *was not* "major" development. If you can point out scenes that show "major NaruHina development", than please do.
I told you earlier. The only mutual development Naruto and Hinata have had is the talk after the chunnin exams in part 1. Over 300 chapters ago. They haven't had any major development since then.
If you're talking about all the times Hinata said, "Naruto-kun, Naruto-kun, Naruto-kun" then you're sadly mistaken.
For a pairing to happen, they need mutual development. And like I said, the only mutual development NaruHina had was when Naruto accepted Hinata as his friend. Everything else that is considered "NaruHina" is all one-sided from Hinata.
In order for a pairing to happen, it needs to be mutual. Which is what NaruHina is not. End of story.




> They are the main characters.It's typical for main characters to get most of the panel time.Hinata is just a supporting character,so it's obvious that she wouldn't be getting as much panel time as the main characters of the story.
> Also, just because two characters spend alot of time together, doesn't necessarily make them a good couple. Panel time doesn't always equal  Development.
> *Best friends also develop a brotherly and sisterly bond with each other.*



Don't even try to use that dead end argument. Naruto and Sakura's bond ARE NOT Brother and Sister. I'm tired of hearing that.
If you're going to try and pull that on me, then I will demand cold, hard PROOF that they only view each other as Brother and Sister. Show me a page in the manga where Naruto or Sakura say to one another that they only view each other as siblings. 

Also, as for your first statement, Kishimoto didn't have to have Naruto and Sakura together all the time. If he was really aiming for Naruto and Hinata development, he certianly would have had a lot more than what he has.

A lot of panel time PLUS development is certianly better than little panel time with NO development.



> I forgot to mention, alot of the moments you posted contained very little development or are just plain friendship moments.



Nope. I'm afraid you're wrong.
Most of them either includes Naruto showing his love for Sakura, or showing how Sakura has started to understand and warm up to Naruto. 
How I see it, Kishimoto is doing a great job at developing NaruSaku. Slowly and naturally. The way true and real, good relationships are made. That's why I consider all those moments to be NaruSaku. They were hardly just "friendship" moments. 




> Actually in one of his interviews, Kishimoto stated that the overall theme of Part II is *"People accepting other people"*. It wasn't me that said that.
> check it:
> 
> 
> "People accepting other people" can mean alot of things. But accepting is still accepting.



I don't really read Kishimoto's interviews, so its no wonder I missed that one. 
No need to get arrogant about it, okay? 

Still, what I said still stands. "People accepting other people" can mean a lot of things. Naruto has already accepted Hinata as his friend. Why does he absolutely have to accept her romantically when he's in love with Sakura? 
The answer is, he doesn't. 

For example, if Ino all of the sudden confessed her love for Naruto, does that mean Naruto HAS to accept? No. It doesn't. 
Kishimoto isn't going to ruin Naruto's character and how he feels just for a theme that doesn't even really apply to Hinata's confession.


----------



## Kage (Apr 30, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> True.  Very true.  But even granted that, popularity is still an important factor.  Kishi is as good a salesman as any.  While I don't think he's going to change the entire course of the series for the popularity of the thing, it's still got a claim on his attention.



i don't see the point of whether or not it's got his attention if in fact it _won't_ change the entire course of his series and the way he has buildup and presented relationships between characters.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> But now that she's alive, that changes.  I'm very much of Caddy's opinion in this matter, her being alive creates all sorts of problems for NaruSaku, while her being dead would've been very nice.  In fact, I would almost prefer it to Naruto turning her down at this point.  Essentially, Kishi had a perfect chance to tie up the Hinata subplot, and he didn't.  Why?  Either because he wants a whole another subplot with Sakura and Hinata dancing around each other, or because he wanted to begin a romance with NaruHina (guess which one I think).




*Spoiler*: __ 



i would like to see the problems it really creates _after_ we see a proper reaction from naruto  hinata being dead would have put an end to it quickly sure. her being alive provides hope that there can be more to it _but_ doesn't drastically change the relationships between characters already _unless_ we are given definite proof of this.(for example naruto seriously considering her feelings and possibly reciprocation. as of now he never gave any such inclinations to consider her romantically before. not one.) 

jumping to the conclusion that this means 'big trouble for NaruSaku' when so far nothing short of a potential catastrophe happened in it's wake (one nearly dead character and another who was willing to destroy everything as a solution for his pain and uncertainty) is a bit presumptuous i think.


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## Afalstein (May 1, 2009)

kageneko said:


> i don't see the point of whether or not it's got his attention if in fact it _won't_ change the entire course of his series and the way he has buildup and presented relationships between characters.



Ah.  A good point, and one that has often been brought up before.  I'm not going to get into the "buildup" debate, because it's essentially the same every time.  Each group claims a number of scenes and describes all the other scenes as "platonic."  In any case, I don't have nearly the knowledge of the manga that most of you do, so I can't compete there. 

However, I have already expressed my doubt about how much a writer can plan out the entire course of his series.  Characters take on a life of their own and often end up running someplace different than what the writer intended.  This seems especially true for Kishi, who's revised the whole Uchiha clan thing three different times and keeps sticking on enormous sideplots that have nothing to do with the main action.

Mind you, I don't doubt he knows where he's going.  But I have to think it's changed over the course of the writing.  Part I didn't really indicate any "tailed beasts" (Gaara said his spirit was that of an old monk's soul, I believe), and Madarra Uchiha, as I've said, came out of the blue.  And I don't think Kishi pays a whole lot of attention to the romance side of his plots. The moments are always few and far between, usually used for comic effect, and always ambiguous.  I read on another forum that he actually confessed as much in an SJ interview. So this could very well be a flexible issue for him.

And, of course, we can't even tell for sure what his original plan WAS to begin with.  That's the backup argument, which I'm not going to get into.  But I'd like to point out that it's not uncommon for characters to suddenly develop a whole backstory involving Naruto (instance Sasuke).  Kishi's not above inventing new material.


----------



## Temp_Position (May 1, 2009)

*Im putting myself in a mosh-pit here....But anyway I think that they could all work, but they all have flaws. 

1) SasuSaku: Dominating wife beating male. Dotting wife. Typical. You see this all the time. 

2) NaruSaku: Dominating wife. Submissive male. Same here. Very typical. 

3) Naruhina. Dotting wife. loving, but bored husband that doesnt want to spend time with his wife. Typical as well. 

And, here is a snap shot of their everyday life...

1) SasuSaku: I see it like this.

Sakura: "Sasuke-kun! I made dinner. 
Sasuke: "This taste like shit!*throws plate at her. 
Sakura: *cleans up mess, " where are you going?
Sasuke: "out. *slams door. 
Sakura: 

lol, im gonna be bad here: 

*Spoiler*: __ 



 love scene: 
Sakura: oh Sasuke!
Sasuke: Hn...whatever




2) NaruSaku:

Sakura: "Idiot! where is dinner! and why arent the dishes done?! *pulls out frying pan.
Naruto: " Sa- Sa- Sakura-chan! Ill do it, dont worry. 
Sakura: "shannaro! *hits Naruto with the frying pan. 
Naruto:

and here: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 love scene:

Naruto: Sa- Sakura-chan, too rough
Sakura: Oh, Sasuke! I love you. 




3) NaruHina.

Hinata: "Na-Naruto-kun... do you want to watch a movie with me?
Naruto: "Huh? oh, um...Im kinda busy here, *points at ramen and smiles nicely at her.
Hinata: *goes to bedroom and says to herself, "he never pays attention to me...."

And here: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 love scene?:
Hinata: Ano...Naruto-kun, shouldnt we consumate our wedding bed?
Naruto: *snore..mmmm, ramen...drools...


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## Kage (May 1, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Ah.  A good point, and one that has often been brought up before.  I'm not going to get into the "buildup" debate, because it's essentially the same every time.  Each group claims a number of scenes and describes all the other scenes as "platonic."  In any case, I don't have nearly the knowledge of the manga that most of you do, so I can't compete there.


thank you for sparing me. i really mean that. and knowledge of the manga only goes as far as the one who perceives it. there are many who would claim to be knowledgeable but few who can do so objectively. 

i try even if i don't manage it all the time but that's why normally i don't bother at all.


> However, I have already expressed my doubt about how much a writer can plan out the entire course of his series.  Characters take on a life of their own and often end up running someplace different than what the writer intended.  This seems especially true for Kishi, who's revised the whole Uchiha clan thing three different times and keeps sticking on enormous sideplots that have nothing to do with the main action.


i don't believe everything he's planned out so far is written in stone. i just don't think he's making most of it up as he goes along.

*Spoiler*: __ 




when he claimed there would be a year of uchiha that's exactly what we got. on the flip side he also said something about focusing more on kakashi and sakura as characters and he's really just scratched the surface on that. -_-






> Mind you, I don't doubt he knows where he's going.  But I have to think it's changed over the course of the writing.


naturally.



> *Part I didn't really indicate any "tailed beasts"* (Gaara said his spirit was that of an old monk's soul, I believe), and Madarra Uchiha, as I've said, came out of the blue.


 actually that was the first thing he established with his story of a nine-tailed beast who was sealed in a boy. elaboration of 8 others comes later on.

*Spoiler*: __ 




Uchiha Madara ties in with sasuke's sub-plot _and_ was mentioned (however vaguely) _twice_ before he showed up.





> And I don't think Kishi pays a whole lot of attention to the romance side of his plots. The moments are always few and far between, usually used for comic effect, and always ambiguous.  I read on another forum that he actually confessed as much in an SJ interview. So this could very well be a flexible issue for him


it could be but we can't be too certain about that. i'm almost positive we may not even get _one_ pairing out of this because he's not paying much attention to romance. 



> And, of course, we can't even tell for sure what his original plan WAS to begin with.  That's the backup argument, which I'm not going to get into.  But I'd like to point out that it's not uncommon for characters to suddenly develop a whole backstory involving Naruto (instance Sasuke).  Kishi's not above inventing new material.


maybe so but i fail to see how this would be beneficial to naruhina. we already know of hinata's past and naruto's respectively. so there would have to be a creation of a whole _new_ back story for both in order to change what's between them now? that doesn't bode very well IMO.


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## Kakugo (May 1, 2009)

Caddy said:


> Just gonna come in and share my two cents:
> 
> NaruHina WILL happen. Looking at it from a *biased* point of view (pay no heed to my sig <______<), I don't see how it can't.



Fixed.



Caddy said:


> 1. It will make Sakura look like a complete bitch. Up to this point, she's never shown any true romantic interest in Naruto, AND she all but knows Hinata loves Naruto. To go after Naruto now would make he look awful and OOC, because the connection between Naruto and Sakura is more brother/sister than anything else.



Heaven forbid if Naruto were to reject Hinata after her confession, especially considering hes had his eyes on Sakura since the beginning. 

And oh the redundant "brother/sister" argument again. I honestly laugh at such declarations of their relationship, since that just sort of tells me what little attention one must be paying to their characters if they think that's the case.



Caddy said:


> 2. If Naruto rejects her after all that, it not only makes him look like a dick and go against his character, but also goes against the main theme of "people accepting other people". It just doesn't work.



But it wouldn't make him look like a dick to date Hinata out of obligation/pity? And quite the contrary, it would be against his character if he were to abruptly depart from his feelings for Sakura, just as much as it would be against his character to stop caring about Sasuke. 



Caddy said:


> 3. Why go through all the effort what with the confession and everything only to completely crap all over it? I doubt Kishi would put that in there unless something was to come of it.



I wouldn't go as far as to say that the confession will get crapped on, though to jump the gun and declare that NaruHina will surely become canon is far from being objective. Wouldn't you perhaps think that there may be other purposes to her confession having been implemented, like oh I don't know... *Hinata* development?



Caddy said:


> 4. Let's be honest here, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that NaruHina is the most popular non-yaoi pairing in Naruto. Kishi would be alienating a lot of fans if he went with NaruSaku now.



Actually, NaruHina is among the least popular non-yaoi pairings in Japan, despite its popularity out in the west. Based on that as well, your statement of "kishi alienating alot of fans" could just as well be applied if NaruHina became canon.



Caddy said:


> There's just way to much pointing in NaruHina's favor. This isn't an argument of which pairing is better, it's the objective truth. It would be plain bad writing at this point, make Naruto's character look shitty, go against the theme of Naruto, and alienate the fanbase.



Well when you look at the story in its entirety, there's much more supporting evidence pointing to that of NaruSaku than there is of NaruHina, but of course selective reading tends to interfere in such cases when one does not support the pairing. I suppose putting Naruto and Hinata together without any real mutual development (yes I said *mutual*) with one another wouldn't be considered shitty writing nor wouldn't be against Naruto's character? Not to mention the alienation of the NaruSaku fanbase, since well, NaruHina isn't the only pairing with a fanbase. 

And please, stop using the word "objective"... because nothing you have said is objective, its all based on biased viewpoint and opinions.


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## mystic868 (May 1, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> Please. Enough with the "Hinata has been watching Naruto for YEARS!" argument. That will not get you anywhere. How long Hinata has been watching Naruto does not matter. Hinata watching Naruto holds NO mutual development. For there to be a pairing to happen, there needs to be *MUTUAL* development.
> 
> Don't even try to use that dead end argument. Naruto and Sakura's bond ARE NOT Brother and Sister. I'm tired of hearing that.
> If you're going to try and pull that on me, then I will demand cold, hard PROOF that they only view each other as Brother and Sister. Show me a page in the manga where Naruto or Sakura say to one another that they only view each other as siblings.



Fully agree



> For example, if Ino all of the sudden confessed her love for Naruto, does that mean Naruto HAS to accept? No. It doesn't.
> Kishimoto isn't going to ruin Naruto's character and how he feels just for a theme that doesn't even really apply to Hinata's confession


Yeah. NaruHina fans think that he will fall in love with Hinata because he never refused any bond. So if for example Sakura and Hinata will tell him both they love him, he should make a harem to make them both happy? I don't think so. He will look at her in different light after confession but definitely not in love light.


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## Afalstein (May 1, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Fully agree
> 
> 
> Yeah. NaruHina fans think that he will fall in love with Hinata because he never refused any bond. So if for example Sakura and Hinata will tell him both they love him, he should make a harem to make them both happy? I don't think so. He will look at her in different light after confession but definitely not in love light.




"Definitely not" is a dangerous phrase, especially when talking about ongoing Japanese cartoon series.

I think you're missing the point with this argument. The point isn't so much that Naruto would accept Hinata out of pity or obligation.  Most NaruHina fans would say that Naruto has always had a friendship with Hinata, he's just never looked at her in a romantic light before.  So from that standpoint, the acceptance springs from a sudden realization of who she is.  

The point is that the audience would view Naruto as a jerk. Recall for that NaruHina fans, this isn't something completely out of the blue, this has been foreshadowed before.  And while you may debate the nature of that foreshadowing, you can't debate the size of the fanbase that thinks so. So for them, it's much as if Sakura confessed and he rejected her.  (Granted, that would be at odds with his stated intentions toward her)  It might not mean he's a jerk, but you would certainly see him as such.

Also, the argument that Naruto has never refused a bond  builds on the idea that Naruto has never had a reason to.  If Sakura suddenly confessed her love (which would be a little anti-climactic, in my opinion), then he would be put into the position of having to refuse one or the other.  

This is slightly off-topic, but Sakura does not seem like the "confession" type.  By all arguments, if she has feelings for Naruto she is only just starting to realize them.  Which, in my opinion, if she was just discovering them she could very well quench them if she had a reason to (i.e., someone else falling in love with Naruto)


Kishi knew, I imagine, when he wrote this that there was a strong following for this pairing.  He couldn't help but know, really.  That's why it's immensely different than when Lee confessed to Sakura.  Lee was virtually an unknown at that point. There was no buildup, and no one who supported the pairing.  Kishi meant it to be slightly odd-ball and it was.  This was meant to be the big controversial point that it is.  I sincerely doubt he's going to diminish this into the "Lee" area, with only a quiet acknowledgement of friendship.  Of course, he could work it (as I've said before), into some kind of tension between Sakura and Hinata, making a whole new love triangle (as opposed to the Naruto-Sakura-Sasuke one), but it's not just going to go away.


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## JERITROLL (May 1, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I agree that if he killed Hinata, it would have been better for both NS and my theory. However, we don't know what goes on in Kishi's mind. The way that 437 was drawn, it was entirely possible that Kishi intended to kill Hinata then and there, but chickened out last minute to avoid angry fans by killing a character who's death would neither add nor remove from the story.

A bad theory? Probably, but it's entirely possible, as it doesn't look like Pain was messing around in 437.


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## Kei (May 1, 2009)

-evil smirk-

Who missed me???

I would like to start off with the topic of Hinata Hyuuga. The main thing about Hinata is that some of u guys were right that Hinata wasn't really planned, but she was and now she here now, so to late to regret the decision of anime u chossen to watch...

Let talk about Hinata's problems, let face it all the characters in Naruto has problems except...who?...SAKURA....SHE WAS SUPPOSE TO BE THE ONLY NORMAL NINJA(which I like to point out she is)...

What is Hinata problem?She wants to be acknowledge by her father, her clan, and her idol...Naruto, she isn't just a mere love intrest for Naruto, if she was it would be like Lee's and Ino crushes...

KEYWORD CRUSHES!!!

If it was just a crush Hinata wouldn't be in the state she in now, she wouldn't be shy around Naruto, she wouldn't risk her life for Naruto, she would just wish him well and move on with her life, but no even after the time skip, Kishi stills show that Hinata still has feelings for Naruto...EVEN AFTER THE TIME SKIP, so heck with the theory of Hinata wasn't planned so throw her away thingy...

Constantly Hinata thought about Naruto, wanting to get close to him without fainting, wanting to change herself so she can get close to him, so her can be acknowledge by her clan..by her father..

Next, is the thing of '*Hinata is just some submissive push over!!*'....May I laugh at u for a moment -laughs 4 a good hour-, wrongo again, think about it if she was she would have totally agreed that infact that Naruto is weak and he should give up the fight with Neji, but she didnt she completly stated that Naruto was strong and can take on Neji, ad change him..

She would have ran away from the fight vs Pain, without even thinking, becuz u know why...She would be a pushover...But she isnt she can be strong and she can be confident in herself..

Next is that..'*If Hinata so strong let her do her own path, she doesn't need help from Naruto*'...Again...-laughs-...If u saying that people who follow Naruto path are weak characters, then lets name people who looked at Naruto and changed themselves...Gaara,Lee,SAKURA,Neji, and so on..Naruto is the beakon of light in the show, he helps those who need help...Sakura wasn't a little different..

She made a effort to change herself after Sasuke left, so Naruto couldn't help her there becuz it was he own choice, she didn't look at Naruto and said "Naruto....I'm going to be just like u someday.."

No..She didn't..She waited until Sasuke left to make a effort to change herself...so let me wait and hear all NS fan kill me with their Sakura logic

And with Fillers I would like to point out, of how u guys say '*Oh it just a filler, it doesn't count...*'...Then why are the people who help out around Naruto choose NH scenes??? And not NS??? Maybe becuz they know Kishi's plans, they are not sick..(I don't think) that they will acutally say 'hey lets screw around and mess up NH fans for fun!!!', no I don't think they are like crazy and cruel..

And didn't Naruto give up on Sakura's Love??In part 1 during the Sasuke retrival?? He even states that '*Wow...Sakura really loves Sasuke*', and if u scream at me that Naruto ninja way is too never give up..well I say that his true mission in life is too become Hokage and to be respected by everyone

Not to make Sakura fall head ove heels in love with him!!!

Kishi even states that the dates with Naruto and Sakura isn;t romantical.....

Taddaaa now I'm done


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 2, 2009)

Naruto's Hinata said:


> Let talk about Hinata's problems, let face it all the characters in Naruto has problems except...who?...SAKURA....SHE WAS SUPPOSE TO BE THE ONLY NORMAL NINJA(which I like to point out she is)...


 Sakura WAS normal. Her problems (Sasuke's defection, her connection with Naruto and Akatsuki, etc.) are worse than Hinata's.


Naruto's Hinata said:


> What is Hinata problem?She wants to be acknowledge by her father, her clan, and her idol...Naruto, she isn't just a mere love intrest for Naruto, if she was it would be like Lee's and Ino crushes...


Low-self esteem and being a terrible, selfish, shy person aren't problems. Of course she isn't Naruto's love interest, he doesn't care about her.


Naruto's Hinata said:


> KEYWORD CRUSHES!!!
> 
> If it was just a crush Hinata wouldn't be in the state she in now, she wouldn't be shy around Naruto, she wouldn't risk her life for Naruto, she would just wish him well and move on with her life, but no even after the time skip, Kishi stills show that Hinata still has feelings for Naruto...EVEN AFTER THE TIME SKIP, so heck with the theory of Hinata wasn't planned so throw her away thingy...


Life risking.  


Naruto's Hinata said:


> Constantly Hinata thought about Naruto, wanting to get close to him without fainting, wanting to change herself so she can get close to him, so her can be acknowledge by her clan..by her father..
> 
> Next, is the thing of '*Hinata is just some submissive push over!!*'....May I laugh at u for a moment -laughs 4 a good hour-, wrongo again, think about it if she was she would have totally agreed that infact that Naruto is weak and he should give up the fight with Neji, but she didnt she completly stated that Naruto was strong and can take on Neji, ad change him..


Because she's obsessive. Wrongo?  Anyway, yes she did. But that's irrelavant, her being brave in small bursts won't make NaruHina happen.


Naruto's Hinata said:


> She would have ran away from the fight vs Pain, without even thinking, becuz u know why...She would be a pushover...But she isnt she can be strong and she can be confident in herself..
> 
> Next is that..'*If Hinata so strong let her do her own path, she doesn't need help from Naruto*'...Again...-laughs-...If u saying that people who follow Naruto path are weak characters, then lets name people who looked at Naruto and changed themselves...Gaara,Lee,SAKURA,Neji, and so on..Naruto is the beakon of light in the show, he helps those who need help...Sakura wasn't a little different..


 Woah! 
*Spoiler*: __ 



She was confident. She completely disobeyed Naruto's order. She confessed. But that won't make NaruHina happen. Naruto's done nothing to show he likes her.



Who said that? Well, Hinata following Naruto also won't make NH happen. And Sakura, and those others, have done something to prove strength. 


Naruto's Hinata said:


> She made a effort to change herself after Sasuke left, so Naruto couldn't help her there becuz it was he own choice, she didn't look at Naruto and said "Naruto....I'm going to be just like u someday.."
> 
> No..She didn't..She waited until Sasuke left to make a effort to change herself...so let me wait and hear all NS fan kill me with their Sakura logic



That was catalyst. Naruto drove the change. Hinata hasn't changed for the entire manga. At ALL. For example: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



This to This


 What has changed? Also, unlike Hinata, Sakura doesn't need to be like Naruto, because she has a personality.


----------



## Forlong (May 2, 2009)

Caddy said:


> (pay no heed to my sig <______<)


Well, look at my sig.  That's what Hinata _really_ meant to say. 



Caddy said:


> 1. It will make Sakura look like a complete bitch. Up to this point, she's never shown any true romantic interest in Naruto, AND she all but knows Hinata loves Naruto. To go after Naruto now would make he look awful and OOC, because the connection between Naruto and Sakura is more brother/sister than anything else.


I think Kishimoto-sensei has already prooved that he doesn't want to make Sakura a complete bitch.  As was said before: Sakura has asked Naruto to comment on her looks.  _I'd_ feel awkward if my sister or "friend like a sister" asked me that.  And Sakura has EVERY right to persue Naruto, regardless of how Hinata feels about him.  Hinata's feelings mean NOTHING!  Sakura's feelings mean NOTHING!  It's Naruto's feelings that count, but are you thinking about that?



Caddy said:


> 2. If Naruto rejects her after all that, it not only makes him look like a dick and go against his character, but also goes against the main theme of "people accepting other people". It just doesn't work.


In case the time skip hasn't been a clue, this series is about growing up.  Sakura realized that she had to think about others instead of herself, and she has.  Naruto realized that he has to take being a ninja and becoming Hokage seriously, and he has.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata needs to realize that she shouldn't obsess over one person.  She has to have a life outside her crush.  Sasuke needs to realize that he has to appreciate his friends while he still can.



Now, I might be wrong; but I happen to be brilliant when it comes to this.



Caddy said:


> 3. Why go through all the effort what with the confession and everything only to completely crap all over it? I doubt Kishi would put that in there unless something was to come of it.



Like Lee's love confession?  Like Sakuras?  I know those are different cases, but they are regections.  Naruto barely knows Hinata.  He's not going to just jump in.  He's learned how well that works out.



Caddy said:


> 4. Let's be honest here, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that NaruHina is the most popular non-yaoi pairing in Naruto. Kishi would be alienating a lot of fans if he went with NaruSaku now.


I've seen less bullshit on a dairy farm.  Let me explain something to you: you are NOT going to stop reading this manga!  If Hinata died, you wouldn't stop reading it.  If Naruto rejects Hinata, you won't stop reading it.  You've read over 8,500 pages of "Naruto"; you're not going to stop until Kishimoto-sensei _tells_ you to stop.

ZARU!



Hikui said:


> Tropes are archetypes, so yeah. But I highly doubt Kishimoto goes and thinks: Oh, I'll give Sakura this tropes. That was my point.


I don't think anyone thinks like that.  I've realized that I'm using at least five tropes in the book I'm writing.  But, tropes and my book are not the main subject of this thread, so consider the subject dropped.



Hikui said:


> AB on the other hand goes with everyone, wanna try to guess who's AB?


SasuNaru fans:
SASUKE!!! SQUEEEEEE!!!



Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Obviously, if Sakura loves Naruto too, that will drag this out.  That might get a bit annoying.


----------



## Forlong (May 2, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> And as for the manga page you stuck on there; the "most precious person to you" speech from Haku. Currently, it is believed that Naruto's most precious person is either Sakura or Sasuke. But that's for another debate.


And might I add: "I will protect Sakura-chan...no matter what!!"



Naruto's Hinata said:


> -evil smirk-
> 
> Who missed me???


No one.  We all hate you! 



Naruto's Hinata said:


> What is Hinata problem?She wants to be acknowledge by her father, her clan, and her idol...Naruto, she isn't just a mere love intrest for Naruto, if she was it would be like Lee's and Ino crushes...
> 
> KEYWORD CRUSHES!!!
> 
> If it was just a crush Hinata wouldn't be in the state she in now, she wouldn't be shy around Naruto, she wouldn't risk her life for Naruto, she would just wish him well and move on with her life, but no even after the time skip, Kishi stills show that Hinata still has feelings for Naruto...EVEN AFTER THE TIME SKIP, so heck with the theory of Hinata wasn't planned so throw her away thingy...


Well, Naruto still has feelings for Sakura, so that's not a crush.  And, it's Naruto's feelings that count.

ZARU!



Naruto's Hinata said:


> And with Fillers I would like to point out, of how u guys say '*Oh it just a filler, it doesn't count...*'...Then why are the people who help out around Naruto choose NH scenes??? And not NS??? Maybe becuz they know Kishi's plans, they are not sick..(I don't think) that they will acutally say 'hey lets screw around and mess up NH fans for fun!!!', no I don't think they are like crazy and cruel..



How 'bout you actually _watch_ the anime?  Give it a shot.
The Fuuma Clan arc: Episodes 136-141 (HUGE NaruSaku)
Find the Bikouchuu arc: Episodes 148-151 (NaruHina)
Episodes 175 & 176 (slight NaruHina)
Vegetable Country arc: Episodes 187-191 (NaruHina)
Gennou the Trap Maker arc: Episodes 197-201 (NaruSaku, anti-NaruHina)
Yakimo's Genjutsu arc: Episodes 203-207 (maybe NaruSaku)
Menma arc: Episodes 213-215 (NaruSaku)
NaruSaku has gotten about the same attention as NaruHina.

ZARU!



Naruto's Hinata said:


> And didn't Naruto give up on Sakura's Love??In part 1 during the Sasuke retrival?? He even states that '*Wow...Sakura really loves Sasuke*', and if u scream at me that Naruto ninja way is too never give up..well I say that his true mission in life is too become Hokage and to be respected by everyone


There is no smilicon to express how dumb that sounds!
Okay, read this slo-o-owly so you understand!  Naruto was setting asside _his_ feelings for Sakura so that _she_ could be happy, even if he couldn't be.  He puts her happiness above his own.  That's love!


----------



## Amai106 (May 2, 2009)

its funny how naruhina fans can say it will happen based off the confession and that hinata deserves naruto because sakura "supposably" treats naruto wrong.the only time sakura treats naruto wrong is in the anime fillers,so that doesnt count.

when has anyone seen a naruhina moment....IN THE MANGA NOT THE ANIME?? other than the confession,which i dont consider a naruhina moment,so tell me when has there ever been a naruhina moment??besides we dont know much about hinata anyway other than her stalking naruto,being shy, and her little appearances in the manga. so how do the naruhina fans  know if hinata is actually compatible with naruto. if you really think about it, how much time does naruto and hinata spend together, wat else does she want other than admiring naruto??

if you naruhina ppl havent realized it yet that hinata wants to be like naruto then your kinda lost, cause she always watches naruto and analyzes wat his personality is like,so she can be more like him. Instead of trying to be like other ppl, which is very hard for some ppl to do.try being yourself.

plus naruto knows more about sakura and have esablished a pretty good friendly/romantic relationship.wat does naruto know about hinata??its been wat 445 chapters and we still know little about hinata.  



sakura to me is a very interesting character that has a strong body and mind that desereves naruto,someone that will treat her right instead of sasuke hinata needs to realize that shes always had someone that cares and acknowleges her for her ability and her personality,it isnt naruto but kiba.

also some ppl act like sakura is a cold bitch that can  only like sasuke.those feelings for sasuke has changed.i think if sasuke really liked sakura he would have returned those feelings by now and not try to stab her.sakura deserves better than that
unlike sasuke,naruto has made it clear as day that he likes sakura. apparently sasuke is too blinded by power to have any interest in love or friendship, he could care less about it.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 2, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Well, the point I was trying to make with the SakuLee thing was that Sakura did become appreciative after that event.  I wasn't trying to suggest that she ever fell in love with him (fun as that would be.  Lee is pretty awesome).  But she was bringing him flowers and stuff, so there was a light friendship there (a great difference from her earlier rejection).
> 
> So at the least, the parallel argues for a much stronger relationship between Hinata and Naruto.  Even more, because Sakura started thinking of Lee as an obnoxious wierdo before he saved her, and she was obsessed with Sasuke at the time.  Naruto has demonstrated he respects Hinata (at the very least), and while he doubtless retains some hopes of Sakura, he's not what I would call obsessed with her.  So Hinata has a better starting point than Lee, and much less to work against.



You're right, Naruto's not as obsessed with Sakura, like he was at the very beginning.  The same can be said for Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.   Their feelings developed from a simple crush, to something more tangible.

With Lee, his crush with Sakura evolved to one of deep respect.


But Hinata having a better starting point than Lee?   Not really.   She just shown her affection in more subtle ways and had more solid reason for that love than Lee had with Sakura.



Afalstein said:


> And as I've said before, I don't quite see the parallel either, so I don't think that necessarily holds.




*Spoiler*: _As I said_ 



They both acted out of their crush and defended the ones they had the crush on.

If you don't see it, then there is nothing further to discuss.






Afalstein said:


> Okay, so you weren't joking.  I can buy your argument about him having that simple storyline in mind when he started (I mean, one needs a general idea, and THAT one could fit just about anything).  But I sincerely doubt he had the ending pictured, unless he was talking about Part I.  Even if Kishi had "the deeper details" of the plot worked out before Part II came along, that itself could easily change.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Okay, you gotta remember those spoilers!   If it's not shown in Shippuuden, you spoiler tag it, okay?

Anyhow, the most basic thing to writing stories is knowing the beginning and the end.   Because it's like a road, if you don't know where your destination is, you aren't going anywhere.   And Kishimoto clearly said he had the ending of _Naruto_ in his head, not Part 1.   It's in his interviews, go read it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Go read the manga again, Kishimoto left some powerful clues in Part 1, hinting at Madara (without mentioning him by name).

1)  The Kyuubi's attack, there was hints when it was discussed why it appeared out of nowhere.

2)  The 3 Uchihas that Itachi Mentioned.

3)  Madara's statue at the VotE.

So Kishimoto obviously didn't invent him as suddenly as you make it out to be.






Afalstein said:


> Kishi is a manga writer.  Writes in weekly installments.  As more chapters are added, the characters change.  Sometimes they go in directions completely different from what the writer originally planned, and the story changes.  Ask any writer.  As I've observed elsewhere, there have been three different re-tellings of the Uchiha slaughter, and in all probability there's another one coming up.  I mean, heck, Kishi couldn't even be completely sure the manga would last this long.    He might've had an extremely vague idea of the ending, and even of the pairings, at the beginning, but simply because it's so vague, it's subject to change.



Ask any writer?   I am a writer, thank you very much.  

Mangakas are like rivers.   You think of them always flowing down the same path, but in reality they can have small changes along the way, but always flowing in the same general direction.  Meaning, yes his editors will surely suggest changes, but he isn't going to completely change the outcome of the story because of it.

For Example:  Naruto will be a grand hero, but how he comes about it is what remains in question.



Afalstein said:


> As I've observed elsewhere, there have been three different re-tellings of the Uchiha slaughter, and in all probability there's another one coming up.



I disagree.  Kishimoto's never altered the story of the massacre.  It just looks that way because it was told through various perspectives.



Afalstein said:


> Part of the role of this debate is to debate whether Naruto's affection is really on Sakura, or whether it's such a strong affection.  But I'm not going to get into that, because it's largely a subjective issue.
> 
> And it might be unreasonable of me to compare Japanese manga to Western Literature, but the two do influence each other. But my point was that the main girl and the main guy do not always get together.  Even you admit that not all shounen manga has this.  Samaurai Champloo has a similar three-man-team, and neither of the guy's ends up marrying the girl.



Whoa, whoa, whoa!  

1) Because Japanese and Western storytelling influences one another, doesn't guarantee the thinking is going to be the same.   And you definitely can't use that assumption with the story of _Naruto_.

2)  Because Champloo has a 3-man team, doesn't automatically mean _Naruto_ is going to follow the same way.



Afalstein said:


> *Plus, other people have observed that they've never seen a shy girl get turned down in a shounen before.*  Actually I think shy ones have an inherent advantage as far as Japanese culture goes.  And Hinata definitely has an edge.  One of the sites I consulted described her as the image of the perfect Japanese wife.  Granted, Kishi may not go for that.  But culture is not all against hinata.



Looks like you are taking other people's word for granted.  

As for shy girls never getting turned down?  I can easily point you to Full Metal Panic.  That definitely had the shy girl being rejected.   

Heck, outside of Nia in TTGL and the possibility of Orihime in Bleach, I don't recall many other shy girls winning the hearts of the lead male, especially over Tsunderes.

If you want to correct me, then please do so.



Hikui said:


> I want a new poll, after everything that has passed.



Oh there surely will be another poll, as part of Databook 4.   Which won't come out until after the manga's done.  



Hikui said:


> And Blood types O don't go with Blood types B, either.
> AB on the other hand goes with everyone, wanna try to guess who's AB?



Bah! You're misleading people! 

B-types are *not* compatiable with A-types
B-types are most compatiable with AB and other B-types.

With O-types it's more on neutral ground:  Not bad, nor great, but okay.

And yes Sasuke is AB, but AB goes with anything.  (Bet Izzy is happy with this) 



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, maybe not. But it's still a possibility.(And Hinata will be more important that Rooki #1, it would be dumb if she wasn't). And yeah, I don't expect Kishimoto to get very hard on romance. I say it will be kind resolved (after Sasuke is saved, we'll see) and then BAM! Epilogue. There will be lot of complaining but it's very likely. Of course, we all want to be surprised.



Pfft, everyone knows that the most important Rookie (outside of Team 7) is Shikamaru.   He has the most relevance to the story.

With Hinata, her plot mainly revolved around Naruto.  (God, if I had a quarter for every damn "Naruto-kun" she said, I'd be a millionare.)


Oh and trust me, there _will_ be a surprise at the end, with regards to pairings.  



Hikui said:


> That's why I didn't want to use tropes, I just thought that was the closest it could get. And about Sasuke...
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Well then by that logic, SasuSaku isn't going to happen.  



Hikui said:


> I guess...but I whole heatedly disagree it is supposed to be a parallel.



I disagree.  Lee had a crush on Sakura and jumped in to protect her.   


*Spoiler*: _Just like_ 



Hinata-hime! 






Hikui said:


> Naruto is coming to an end. Might not be a close end (next 10 chapters) but it is coming to a conclusion (unless another BIG BAD is uncovered). It would be horribly done if the pairings (even when not that important plot wise) were dealt with two chapters before the end.



Doubt there will be a new villian introduced, unless Kishimoto changes his mind about a Part 3.  

And the pairings would only be horrible done in the last 3 chapters if the couples were thrown in together without any real development.  



Hikui said:


> Kishimoto did say Sakura was not cute.



No, you're taking what he said out of context! 

Kishimoto did *not* say that Sakura wasn't cute, he said that the way he drew Sakura (early in Part 1) didn't made her look cute.  Because he sucked at drawing girls.

no matter what!!"


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 2, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> Sorry with the late post, I had stuff to do. Anyway,
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Serena-hime said:


> Nope. I'm afraid you're wrong.
> Most of them either includes Naruto showing his love for Sakura, or showing how Sakura has started to understand and warm up to Naruto.
> How I see it, Kishimoto is doing a great job at developing NaruSaku. Slowly and naturally. The way true and real, good relationships are made. That's why I consider all those moments to be NaruSaku. They were hardly just "friendship" moments.


These are the ones I don't get.
Chapter 13: Link removed
Chapter 31: Link removed
Chapter 17: Link removed
Chapter 18: Link removed
Chapter 172: Link removed

comments:
chapter 13:He was about to get owned...someone was about to die
chapter 31:He could be feeling sad because Sasuke died
chapter 17:she still has her doubts
chapter 18 p.20:teammate asking another teammate how to do something 
chapter 172 p.17:Wow, poor Naruto,he had to stand and watch that. 




Serena-hime said:


> Still, what I said still stands. "People accepting other people" can mean a lot of things. Naruto has already accepted Hinata as his friend. Why does he absolutely have to accept her romantically when he's in love with Sakura?
> The answer is, he doesn't.



Every story is built on top of it's theme.Adding things that contradict the theme would make it untrue, thus, not making it an overall theme at all.The story of PartII has always been following that theme, so I don't get why it should suddenly stop following it just because you think Naruto having a crush on Sakura is an exception.
Why on earth would Kishimoto choose "People accepting other people" as his story's overall theme if he isn't planning to follow it later on?


----------



## mystic868 (May 2, 2009)

There was a training scene during part 1: tree climbing. Naruto said sth like that: Sakura-chan you're amaizing, like a woman of my dreams. In my opinion if he didn't reffer to Sakura, he reffered to Sakura-type person. And so it showed that he wants to find a girl with strong temper and Hinata definitely doesn't match this description cause she's complete opposite of Sakura strong temper character.


----------



## Forlong (May 2, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Hinata went from a dark,plain, weirdo, to a person Naruto can like.
> I'm pretty sure that indicates how much she developed in Naruto's
> eyes.He also sees her as an amazing person.


Same with Sakura.



BruceLeefan said:


> Read Haku's lines carefully.Now relate that to Hinata's confession.Hinata is undoubtly the first person to ever say in Naruto's face that she loves him.On top of that, she went through the trouble of proving her love by risking her own life to protect him when she perfectly knew that she had no chance against Pain.
> Naruto didn't just get plain acknowledgement from Hinata,No, it was love. Being loved by someone is more valuable to Naruto than being acknowledged by someone.
> I don't think they would remain "plain friends" after that incident.I'm pretty sure Hinata has earned a spot in Naruto's list of most important people.


Haku's lines also relate to Naruto protecting Sakura.  And Kishi-sensei indended us to make that conection, as he had Naruto flashback to it while protecting Sakura.  Could that be a _hint_?
They can remain friends after this.  When I was young (younger than Hinata) I had a crush on a friend of mine.  I asked her about it, she didn't resiprocate (ooh, I like that word).  We stayed friends.
I used to be a lot like Hinata.  I once followed a girl around that I had a crush on, but I was smart enough to realize that I needed to develope a relationship with a girl.  That next girl I had a crush on, I became friends with first (ironically, she was that other girl's sister )

Note: you didn't need spoiler tags for this next part.


BruceLeefan said:


> Part 1:
> Jijatsu
> Jijatsu
> Hinata offers him her test paper.At first he was glad she wanted help him, but later declined the offer because he didn't want her to get in trouble.
> ...


Chapter 42: How 'bout we take what she said at face value?  She said they needed to stick together.  Platonic.
Chapter 80: Lee is also like Naruto.  Does that make NaruLee a likely pairing?  I've pointed out undeniable simularities between Naruto and Sakura.  How do his simularities with Hinata magically make that pairing the only one possible.
Chapter 81: And yet, all the times he's protected Sakura are platonic.  But somehow, whenever he's protecting Hinata it's proof that he loves her and not Sakura? 
Chapter 98: Hinata could have just been chearing up a friend.  That's magically how it is with Sakura, whenever _she_ chears Naruto up.
Chapter 103: Naruto's ninja way is to never go back on his word.  Of course he's going to remember a promise he made only a month ago.  And he remembered his promise to Sakura for THREE YEARS!  Which one _seems_ more important to him?
Chapter 105: Platonic.  She tried and failed to beat Neji.  She also cheared Naruto up, when he felt down.
Chapter 238: She not saying "good bye", so...where's the moment?



BruceLeefan said:


> Let me give you two examples since I have to go to bed soon:
> Juujika
> Chapter 238(good chapter to read)


1: So women would only punch their brothers? 
2: I don't see it.  Getting annoyed that he's sleeping in?  That he's eating junk food?  Not platonic.
Apparently, you don't understand.  What would proove that Naruto and Sakura are like brother and sister is them SAYING it.  They don't, so you have no point.



BruceLeefan said:


> These are the ones I don't get.
> Chapter 13: Chapter 238
> Chapter 31: Chapter 238
> Chapter 17: Chapter 42
> ...


Chapter 13: I don't get it.  What's wrong?  Sakura is getting a wierd feeling about Naruto.  What's not to get?
Chapter 31: Keyword: "COULD".  We know he cares for Sakura.  Her feelings are important to him.
Chapter 17: Don't see your point.  She's backsliding a bit.  She's seen Naruto in action, but is still uncertain about him.  It can take five seconds to make a first impression, and five _years_ to live it down.
Chapter 18: Odd, I don't see Sakura telling Sasuke.  Why's that?
Chapter 172: Don't see a point here.  He sad because Sakura prefers Sasuke, but she's happy.  And her happiness is more important to him than his own.



BruceLeefan said:


> Every story is built on top of it's theme.Adding things that contradict the theme would make it untrue, thus, not making it an overall theme at all.The story of PartII has always been following that theme, so I don't get why it should suddenly stop following it just because you think Naruto having a crush on Sakura is an exception.
> Why on earth would Kishimoto choose "People accepting other people" as his story's overall theme if he isn't planning to follow it later on?



So Naruto has to except that he's been REJECTED by Sakura to maintain the "People accepting others" theme?  Yet him rejecting Hinata would be nothing like this.

ZARU!


----------



## Afalstein (May 2, 2009)

Let me rant for a paragraph.  Skip it if you want.

No offense, but I'd really prefer it if people kept their personal lives out of these arguments.  On both sides.  Yes, it's important stuff and it makes good points, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with the manga itself.  Stories may relate to real life, but that doesn't mean they relate to any one's in particular.  And personal stories make it really hard to argue intelligently, because then if we criticize, we're criticizing your personal life.

Okay.  Back to actual argument

A lot of the question seems to hinge on the significance or existence of different "crushes."  Sakura's crush on Sasuke.  Naruto's crush on Sakura.  Hinata's crush on Naruto. Each of these, it seems, has at least some mutual reciprocation, except perhaps for SasuSaku (though he was prepared to risk his life for her and Naruto when fighting Gaara).  The way these things work is that people say relationship "A" is a simple crush that doesn't mean much to the person, while relationship "B" is clearly the real deal.  And then people go back and forth with different "romance scenes" to prove which one is more "real."  Which is always difficult, because most of Kishi's "romance" scenes are lighthearted or used for comic effect. (ramen scene, Hinata fainting, etc.)

Given this triad, it just seems that at last we have a chance for something different.  Sakura has always rejected Naruto's advances (Lately with more playfulness, perhaps).  Sasuke definitely rejected Sakura's advances.  Generally, it's because the one found the other annoying, they wanted to be alone, or they were obsessed with someone else.

Hinata has never made any advances until just recently, so Naruto never had to reject her.  And Naruto doesn't really have the attitude toward her that Sasuke did toward Sakura, or even Sakura toward him.  He's always liked and respected her.  Maybe he hasn't seen her in a romantic light previously, but even when he thought of her as a shy, dark, weirdo (romance scene with comic effect), he did like her. 

So it's hard to see him taking the same path as Sakura and Sasuke in this matter.  We have a crush that might actually be realized.  And while Naruto might like or even love Sakura, he's not obsessed with her. (anymore)  So he's not concerned about "keeping himself single for Sakura-chan" as Sakura was with Sasuke (evidence Naruto and Lee).  Hence, it's hard to see him rejecting Hinata.


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## 王志鍵 (May 2, 2009)

I usually like having one debate at a time but since it's a rainy Saturday, I guess I have time.


Forlong said:


> Same with Sakura.


I know but,can you explain?provide examples maybe?



Forlong said:


> Haku's lines also relate to Naruto protecting Sakura.  And Kishi-sensei indended us to make that conection, as he had Naruto flashback to it while protecting Sakura.  Could that be a _hint_?
> They can remain friends after this.  When I was young (younger than Hinata) I had a crush on a friend of mine.  I asked her about it, she didn't resiprocate (ooh, I like that word).  We stayed friends.


Which line are you refering to? "Is there someone precious to you" or "If someone appeared,and acknowledged you from the bottom of their heart, would that person be the most important to you?"



Forlong said:


> Note: you didn't need spoiler tags for this next part.
> 
> Chapter 42: How 'bout we take what she said at face value?  She said they needed to stick together.  Platonic.
> Chapter 80: Lee is also like Naruto.  Does that make NaruLee a likely pairing?  I've pointed out undeniable simularities between Naruto and Sakura.  How do his simularities with Hinata magically make that pairing the only one possible.
> ...


comments on your comments:
ch42:That's not what she meant, didn't you see the panel where the     background faded black?She's regretting not revealing her true feelings to Naruto.
ch80:Who said anything about NaruLee?Naruto isn't gey.
ch81:who said I said Naruto protecting Sakura isn't development?
ch98: She cheered up Naruto for Naruto only and not because of some other dude. Can you find any moments where Naruto was actually cheered up by Sakura?Sorry,I'm bad at remembering things that I have no interest in.
ch103:It's not just for sakura, it's for himself and Sasuke too.
ch105mm...isn't that why Naruto is avenging her defeat?
ch238: She didn't say goodbye directly to him because she's still shy,but she's the only rookie and last person to see him off.

Oh if you haven't noticed, all of these besides the last one, is all Naruto. I didn't even put up the Hinata ones.



Forlong said:


> 1: So women would only punch their brothers?
> 2: I don't see it.  Getting annoyed that he's sleeping in?  That he's eating junk food?  Not platonic.
> Apparently, you don't understand.  What would proove that Naruto and Sakura are like brother and sister is them SAYING it.  They don't, so you have no point.


sigh...of course a Narusaku fan like yourself wouldn't say they are brother and sister because you obviously wan't them to be together.



Forlong said:


> Chapter 13: I don't get it.  What's wrong?  Sakura is getting a wierd feeling about Naruto.  What's not to get?
> Chapter 31: Keyword: "COULD".  We know he cares for Sakura.  Her feelings are important to him.
> Chapter 17: Don't see your point.  She's backsliding a bit.  She's seen Naruto in action, but is still uncertain about him.  It can take five seconds to make a first impression, and five _years_ to live it down.
> Chapter 18: Odd, I don't see Sakura telling Sasuke.  Why's that?
> Chapter 172: Don't see a point here.  He sad because Sakura prefers Sasuke, but she's happy.  And her happiness is more important to him than his own.


my comments on your comments on my comments:

ch13: She didn't say "Naruto" in the Japanese version.
ch31:Keep in mind, Sasuke just died.But you may be right, who knows.
ch17:if someone's gonna put that there, they might as well but down every    singe panel with Naruto and Sakura...<=====this was what she was thinking.While kakashi was like 
ch18: She never asked because she's better than Sasuke at climbing trees...
ch172:This can be taken in alot of ways depending on what side you are on.Some may see it as what you just said,and some may see it as Naruto being happy for Sakura and respecting her choice of man.Why try to get a date with a friend if that friend likes another friend?<===That's what he's thinking according to my _opinion_.No one knows yet.



Forlong said:


> So Naruto has to except that he's been REJECTED by Sakura to maintain the "People accepting others" theme?  Yet him rejecting Hinata would be nothing like this.


Naruto isn't even aware of her feelings towards him,so there's no rejection there.Naruto knows Sakura still has feelings for Sasuke(ch350 is proof).He's been indirectly rejected _way_ before "People accepting other people" became the theme.


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 2, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> I
> sigh...of course a Narusaku fan like yourself wouldn't say they are brother and sister because you obviously wan't them to be together.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kage (May 2, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Read Haku's lines carefully.Now relate that to Hinata's confession.Hinata is undoubtly the first person to ever say in Naruto's face that she loves him.On top of that, she went through the trouble of proving her love by risking her own life to protect him when she perfectly knew that she had no chance against Pain.
> Naruto didn't just get plain acknowledgement from Hinata,No, it was love. Being loved by someone is more valuable to Naruto than being acknowledged by someone.


er...hate to break it to you but those lines have _nothing_ to do with hinata's confession in particular. in fact whenever naruto reflects on them he's usually thinking of his precious people in _general._ that's why it's just as easy to connect it to someone else who's important to him.

hinata's the first to acknowledge him _in such a way_ yes but you can't assume it's going to be so much more important to him then his other bonds are. especially since we have yet to see him react in a way that tells us such.
nobody else is 'just plain acknowledging' him. you really underestimate the value of his other bonds when you make it sound so ordinary and inferior.

plus...


BruceLeefan said:


> Which line are you refering to? "Is there someone precious to you" or "If someone appeared,and acknowledged you from the bottom of their heart, would that person be the most important to you?"


hinata's already been beat in this department. naruto already has a person he considers most precious to him. one who 'acknowledges him from the bottom of their heart'


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## Mogami Kyoko (May 2, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> I know but,can you explain?provide examples maybe?



You don't _need_ examples to see that Naruto believes that Sakura is an amazing person. It's written all over the manga.
But if it'll satisfy you, I'll provide an example from part 1 and part 2.

Part 1: Psilocybin: Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide

Part 2: Link removed

Naruto's opinion on Sakura hasn't change a bit. And neither has his love for her.




> comments on your comments:
> ch42:That's not what she meant, didn't you see the panel where the     background faded black?She's regretting not revealing her true feelings to Naruto.
> ch80:Who said anything about NaruLee?Naruto isn't gey.
> ch81:who said I said Naruto protecting Sakura isn't development?
> ...



Ch42: That was just reflecting Hinata's low self-confidence. It doesn't add anything to "NaruHina". 
Ch80: forlong was using the example that Naruto see's Hinata the same way as Lee. And just because he see's Hinata that way, doesn't mean he'll fall in love with her.
Ch81: forlong was just stating something that happens a lot. 
Ch98: Sakura's presence alone, usually cheers Naruto up. 
Ch103: Not quite. Naruto was going to go after Sasuke anyways. Even before he made the promise. Naruto made that promise *to* Sakura and *for* Sakura and Sakura alone. It was proof to show how much Naruto cares for Sakura.

Ch105: I think you missed the point of the vow Naruto made and the Naruto vs. Neji fight. The point of it was, was to prove that "failures will not always be failures like Neji said." Naruto got ticked off when Neji was going on to Hinata about how failures will always be failures, because Naruto was seen as a failure most of his life. He took Neji's words personally. 
Naruto made the vow to prove that not *all failures* will always be failures. This includes every "failure" in the Naruto manga. Including Lee. He wasn't making a vow for only "Hinata". 
In the Naruto vs. Neji fight, Naruto was able to prove his point. He wanted Hinata to see because he believed that Hinata was fighting for the same thing he was when she fought Neji. He wanted her to believe that what they were fighting for wasn't in vain. And Naruto's fight proved that.
He wasn't doing all of that just for Hinata. It was for all failures. It doesn't add anything to NaruHina.

Ch238: Ooookay. So she was the last person to see him off. So? How is that mutual development between Naruto and Hinata. It isn't. Naruto didn't see or notice Hinata at all. And Hinata didn't even speak to him. No points for NaruHina here.




> sigh...of course a Narusaku fan like yourself wouldn't say they are brother and sister because you obviously wan't them to be together.



Oh? Are you going to be like that?
Okay.

*sigh* Of course a NaruHina fan like yourself would say that Naruto and Sakura have only a brother and sister bond because you obviously don't want them to be together.

See? Your words can be flipped around and thrown back at you in an instant. Heck, I might as well say to you, "NaruHina can't happen because Naruto and Hinata have a brother and sister bond." And guess what? I can see that happen. This "Brother and Sister" bond between Naruto and Sakura has zero positive proof to it. Therefore, the argument is invalid.




> my comments on your comments on my comments:
> 
> ch13: She didn't say "Naruto" in the Japanese version.
> ch31:Keep in mind, Sasuke just died.But you may be right, who knows.
> ...



Ch13: I'm sorry, but that argument isn't very good. So what if she didn't say "Naruto" in the Fan translation? It was 100% proof positive she was aiming at Naruto when she had that thought. Naruto was the focus of everyone at that moment. Was Sakura aiming that thought at their client? Certainly not!

Ch31: If Naruto had already expressed his pain for Sasuke's "supposed death" by going Kyuubi on Haku. Naruto gripped his heart in pain *only when* Sakura began to cry.

Ch17: When I posted that manga page, it was to prove that Sakura had started acknowledging Naruto earlier than people think. 
Sakura's face was like that because she was still frowning from her previous statement; which was "Sensei!! What's a little training going to do?!! Our enemy is a ninja you struggled against even with the Sharingan!!" 

Here's the page: Psilocybin: Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide
And if you look at the page after that, when she's acknowledging Naruto, you can notice that her frown has softened a little, compared to the last panel she was in.

Ch18: I think you misunderstood what forlong said. He said that Sakura wasn't giving Sasuke any advice on the training. And instead, she gave it to Naruto.

Ch172: No. It can't be taken in a lot of different ways. There is only one way Kishi meant it to be, and it's pretty clear.
When Sakura hugged Sasuke, Naruto would about to say something but he stopped. He grew a sad smile on his face and turned and walked away, with Tsunade mentioning that Naruto was more sensitive than he looked.
The sad smile indicated that Naruto was happy for Sakura, even though he was hurt. He left to give them alone time, again, Naruto putting Sakura's feeling's before his own; which is followed by Tsunade's comment.
And just because Naruto put Sakura's happiness before his own, never meant that he was going to give up on Sakura. He still loves her. That's why there are still date requests. 
Plus, if Naruto gave up on Sakura, don't you think that would contradict Naruto's "Never give up" way of living?




> Naruto isn't even aware of her feelings towards him,so there's no rejection there.Naruto knows Sakura still has feelings for Sasuke(ch350 is proof).He's been indirectly rejected _way_ before "People accepting other people" became the theme.



Right now, a lot of people believe that Sakura has given her feelings for Sasuke up. I am one of those people. Chapter 350 proves nothing. Both Naruto and Sakura were both happy because they believed that since Sasuke killed Orochimaru, that would mean that Sasuke would return to Konoha. Even though it their belief wasn't true. There was no proof of Sakura still having feelings for Sasuke. 
Yes, Naruto has been rejected by Sakura before, but that was wayyy back in part 1. Plus, as I mentioned in my last statement, Naruto giving up on Sakura would be a contradiction of his character.



There's also a very wise saying I heard once. And I believe it applies to NaruSaku.

"If you truly love something/someone, then you'll let them go. If they don't come back to you, then it was never truly yours."

A lot of people claim Naruto no longer holds love for Sakura, when in reality all he has done is stop forcing his love onto her, while still being able to be in love with her. 
I believe that wise saying is coming true with NaruSaku. Sakura is starting to grow feelings of love towards Naruto, therefore, as it would go in the wise saying, she is coming back to Naruto.


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## Forlong (May 2, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> No offense, but I'd really prefer it if people kept their personal lives out of these arguments.  On both sides.  Yes, it's important stuff and it makes good points, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with the manga itself.  Stories may relate to real life, but that doesn't mean they relate to any one's in particular.  And personal stories make it really hard to argue intelligently, because then if we criticize, we're criticizing your personal life.


Okay, consider it dropped.  At least by me.



BruceLeefan said:


> I know but,can you explain?provide examples maybe?


Serena-Hime beat me to it.  Bless her heart.  That is, if she's a...she...
Er...SEGWAY!



BruceLeefan said:


> Which line are you refering to? "Is there someone precious to you" or "If someone appeared,and acknowledged you from the bottom of their heart, would that person be the most important to you?"


If memory serves, the line Naruto recalled was "Is there someone precious to you".



BruceLeefan said:


> comments on your comments:
> ch42:That's not what she meant, didn't you see the panel where the     background faded black?She's regretting not revealing her true feelings to Naruto.
> ch80:Who said anything about NaruLee?Naruto isn't gey.
> ch81:who said I said Naruto protecting Sakura isn't development?
> ...


Ch42: Regardless if that's what she meant, that's how it could be taken.  I was giving an example of what _I_ hear whenever people say "that NaruSaku moment is totally platonic".
Ch80: You're basing the relationship on simularities.  A good basis, but the same can be applied to any pairing.
Ch81: It shows that Naruto not only loves Sakura, but is willing to make a life-long commitment to her.  She smiles at him later, when Sasuke tells her; respecting Naruto all the more.
Ch 98: Ta-DA!
Ch 103: Let's bring that logic to a NaruHina moment, shall we? Naruto didn't beat Neji just for Hinata, but for himself and other failures.
Ch 105: It can and should be taken as platonic, since Naruto remained clueless of Hinata's feelings.
Ch 238: Irrelevant.  People are seen for what they do, not what they _wish_ they did.



BruceLeefan said:


> sigh...of course a Narusaku fan like yourself wouldn't say they are brother and sister because you obviously wan't them to be together.



You fail logic forever!  Sakura was annoyed that Naruto was sleeping in and not taking proper care of himself.  Could that be platonic?  Yes.  Could that be romantic?  Once again, yes.  So, what's your point?  The fact that it is open-ended makes the "they're like brother and sister" arguement dead.



BruceLeefan said:


> ch13: She didn't say "Naruto" in the Japanese version.
> ch31:Keep in mind, Sasuke just died.But you may be right, who knows.
> ch17:if someone's gonna put that there, they might as well but down every    singe panel with Naruto and Sakura...<=====this was what she was thinking.While kakashi was like
> ch18: She never asked because she's better than Sasuke at climbing trees...
> ch172:This can be taken in alot of ways depending on what side you are on.Some may see it as what you just said,and some may see it as Naruto being happy for Sakura and respecting her choice of man.Why try to get a date with a friend if that friend likes another friend?<===That's what he's thinking according to my _opinion_.No one knows yet.


Ch 13: Who _else_ could she be talking about?
Ch 17: So she can NEVER have doupts about Naruto?  Hasn't Hinata done just that? 
Ch 18: She didn't give Sasuke any advice.  Why is that?
Ch 172: And yet, Naruto still looks at Sakura in the same light, before and after the time skip.



BruceLeefan said:


> Naruto isn't even aware of her feelings towards him,so there's no rejection there.Naruto knows Sakura still has feelings for Sasuke(ch350 is proof).He's been indirectly rejected _way_ before "People accepting other people" became the theme.



You mean this (note: it's a spoiler)?

*Spoiler*: _Chaper 350 comment_ 



Wow!  _One_ tear for Sasuke.



Not like she's ever shed tears of joy for Naruto...

And might I add:
ZARU!


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 2, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> Serena-hime said:
> 
> 
> > You don't _need_ examples to see that Naruto believes that Sakura is an amazing person. It's written all over the manga.
> ...


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 2, 2009)

@forlong,
you made alot of similar posts to Serene-hime, chances are I've already answered it.
But I'll answer this:

[/QUOTE]

*Spoiler*: _Chaper 350 comment_ 



Wow!  _One_ tear for Sasuke.



Not like she's ever shed tears of joy for Naruto...

And might I add:
ZARU![/QUOTE]

Wow,That was an unfair comparison.You're comparing the day when a loved one might  come home, to a day when a friend turns into a scary demon and returns back to normal.


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## Kage (May 2, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> There's no proof that indicates Sakura has given up her feelings for Sasuke.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



no she teared up because he wasn't going to be taken over by orochimaru 
it was naruto who thought that meant he would come home.

and how else is she _suppose_ to act when she discovers someone she cares about isn't going to have his body taken over? if you haven't noticed sakura cries _a lot_. especially as a response to a friends turmoil. or even in [DLMURL="http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-297-page-13.html"]relief[/DLMURL] as you so kindly pointed out. she so wasn't happy that he was okay btw.


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## Kei (May 2, 2009)

believeit6 said:


> BruceLeefan said:
> 
> 
> > I
> ...


----------



## Mogami Kyoko (May 2, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Serena-Hime beat me to it.  Bless her heart.  That is, if she's a...she...
> Er...SEGWAY!



No worries. I'm a she.  lol




BruceLeefan said:


> @forlong,
> you made alot of similar posts to Serene-hime, chances are I've already answered it.
> But I'll answer this:
> 
> Wow,That was an unfair comparison.You're comparing the day a loved one might  come home, to a day when a friend becomes crazy and returns back to normal.



There's nothing "unfair" about it.

In chapter 350, Sakura shed a tear of joy because Naruto and her long lost friend was possibly coming home. Sakura doesn't have to be in love with Sasuke to be happy that he might come back to Konoha. 
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Not ONLY were Naruto and Sakura happy that he was probably going to come home, but also they didn't have to worry about Orochimaru taking possession of his body anymore. That alone, is enough for her to cry for joy about. It does not prove that she's still in love with him.

As for chapter 297, Sakura cries for Naruto about his situation and his possible fate as a Jinchuuriki. She knows how serious of a matter it is.
When Naruto returned to normal, he was seriously damaged and the Kyuubi chakra wasn't doing a very good job on healing him.
Plus she knows that the Kyuubi could kill Naruto. Of course she was crying for joy when he woke up, completely back to normal.
To Sakura, Naruto's situation as a Jinchuuriki is a very important matter to her.
Also, if you look into the next chapter, when Naruto collapses, Sakura holds him and actually wants to postpone the mission so Naruto can recover completely. That means putting off rescuing and seeing Sasuke.

Here's the page:
Juujika 

The way I see it, the theory of "Sakura still in love with Sasuke" doesn't score many points with this scene. 
Naruto wanted to continue and see/rescue Sasuke more than Sakura did.


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## Mogami Kyoko (May 2, 2009)

*Continued:*




BruceLeefan said:


> I'm pretty sure Naruto can relate to Hinata's determination better than Sakura's skill.Since Naruto's strength relies on his determination after all.



Naruto can relate to quite a few people when it comes to determination.
There's nothing special about that.



> ch42: Hinata offers him her test paper.At first he was glad she wanted help him, but later declined the offer because he didn't want her to get in trouble.My original post wasn't talking about Hinata's lack in self confidence.
> ch80:This is early development,there isn't going to be love yet...but it's developing.She wen't from a plain dark weirdo ,to an incredibly strong and determined person in front of Naruto's eyes.Naruto had no idea Hinata was that strong, but he already knew Lee was strong.
> ch81: Shocked to see Hinata fall in battle,he rushes immediately by her side, he makes a Blood Oath in front of everyone vowing to avenge her defeat.Naruto sees Hinata as a person too,not just another failure.Also, he made that vow before he noticed Lee's determination.But When Lee fell, he didn't make another blood oath with lee's blood.
> ch103:It's for Sakura,because he wants her to be happy with Sasuke back,it's for himself, because he wants his brother-like friend to come back,it's for Sasuke because he wants him to be good again.It wasn't just for Sakura



Ch42: Naruto rejected Hinata's help not because he didn't want her to get in trouble. If I remember correctly, he said that to her so he could look "cool". (At least according to the official translation.) Plus, he didn't want him and his team to suffer because of him cheating. 
I know. But that's what the scene was suggesting. Hinata couldn't tell him why she didn't want him to leave because of her lack of self-confidence.

Ch80: She went from "Plain Dark, Weirdo" to "Friend". And that's all it's been for over 300 chapters.

Ch81: Let's see here. The battle was over. Hinata suddenly doubled over, coughed up a bunch of blood and collapsed. Naruto *and Sakura and Lee and Kurenai* all rushed over to her side.
Of COURSE everyone would do that. The girl lost a crap-load of blood and collapsed. 
It doesn't change the fact that Naruto made the vow to all failures. Because he made the vow to all failures, of course he didn't need to make another vow with Lee's blood. 
And Naruto did understand Lee's situation to an extent. Before Naruto made the vow, Neji trash-talked failures in front of Naruto. Naruto got angry and would about to beat him for that. Lee stops Naruto and tells him that he understands Naruto's feelings so much, it hurts.
And I know Naruto views Hinata as a person. But the only reason he bothered to make that vow was because she was viewed as a failure like he was.

But when you think about it now, Naruto isn't viewed as a failure anymore. So if you think that Naruto and Hinata can grow closer because they're both failures, then I'm afraid you're mistaken. That chance has already passed them.

Ch103: Are you sure you read my post all the way through? Naruto was *already going to go after Sasuke for Sasuke and for himself before he made the promise to Sakura.* Before he made the promise to Sakura, he was about to head out on a mission to bring Sasuke back with his friends. 
Before they left, that's when Sakura showed up and Naruto made the promise after they talked. 



> ch13:You call, "what is this feeling" development? You might as well put down every panel with Naruto and Sakura and call that development.
> ch31r it could be, Naruto is blaming himself for not saving Sasuke.
> ch17:Everyone knows Sakura acknowledged Naruto during that mission.Why else would she hesitate when deciding whether or not to enter the chunin exams? Even Kakashi started to acknowledge him.It doesn't make Sakura any different.
> ch18:That's because Naruto asked for it...
> ...



Ch13: Hold on there, dude. Not all panels that have Naruto and Sakura in them include Sakura thinking: "What's this feeling? This is Naruto..." With Sakura blushing as she thinks it.
What you just said is like me saying to you, "Every panel that has Naruto and Hinata in it makes you believe that it's NaruHina development."

Ch31: Naruto wasn't going to blame himself for not being able to save Sasuke. Because Sasuke went up and did what he did all on his own. There wasn't anything Naruto could do. Plus, I doubt Kishi would put in something so vague as that.
Naruto already started to look in pain when Sakura asked where Sasuke was. He didn't say anything because he couldn't tell her. He knew it would hurt her.
Besides, at that time, everyone all knew, 100% sure, that Naruto was in love with Sakura. Unlike now where people actually have doubts, for some odd reason. 
It makes sense. Naruto clutched his heart because hit broke his heart to hear the girl he loved in pain. End of story. There's nothing else to it.

Ch17: I just put it out, in the first place, to show how Naruto and Sakura's relationship had developed through-out part 1. There were a lot of bumpy roads because Sakura apparently "hated" Naruto. 
Through-out part 1, in the NaruSaku relationship the development goes like this for each one of them.

Sakura = Naruto went from annoying, in the way of her love, idiot, to Most trusted friend and teammate who she was wrong about in the very beginning.

Naruto = If anything, Naruto's love for Sakura grew and matured. And all through-out part 1, Naruto expressed his love for her over and over again.

Part 2, to me will be more about their friendship and growing feelings for each other.

Ch18: Again, I point to what I just wrote above. That was thrown out to show Sakura's changing view on Naruto. Besides, I'm surprised she didn't go to Sasuke, after giving Naruto her advice, asking him if he wanted advice too. I could see her do it, but she didn't.

Ch172: No one said that people were thinking that Naruto was going to be with Sakura while reading that scene. 
Naruto just wants Sakura to be happy with whatever she chooses and left her and Sasuke alone. That doesn't mean Naruto gave up his love for her. In fact, what he did in that scene proved he loves her. 

And I can't believe you're bringing up that old, dead-end argument.
Naruto never took them seriously? Then why on earth would Kishi waste panel time putting those scenes in? The answer is, is because Naruto was completely serious about it. Kishi put them in for comedic reasons, but he wouldn't have put them in if Naruto didn't really love Sakura.
It would be pointless.




> There's no proof that indicates Sakura has given up her feelings for Sasuke.



You're right. There isn't. But there isn't proof of Sakura still having her feelings for Sasuke either.
So it looks like we're at a moot point, doesn't it? 
We'll have to wait and see what the Sasuke and Sakura conclusion will be like. 




> Let me tell you what ch350 indicates.Sakura was tearing up in happiness when she thought Sasuke was coming home.
> You claim that ch 350 indicates nothing, but let me ask you this,lets say Sakura still had feelings for Sasuke.What would Kishimoto draw instead of making her tear up in happiness?



Be sure to read my first reply to you at the top of the page. 

I wasn't expecting Kishi to draw Sakura any other way. Girls are emotional people. Especially Sakura. She's an emotional person. 
Whether she still has feelings for Sasuke or not, it comes as no surprise that she would tear up. 
She would cry from joy either way.




Naruto's Hinata said:


> Naruto called Sakura an ugly whore...development??



I'm sorry, I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I have to say something.

That scene:

1. Was for comedy

2. Naruto was half-asleep 

3. *That was filler!*  

Filler doesn't count, I'm afraid. 
Whatever isn't in the manga, is not canon.


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 3, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> Serena-hime said:
> 
> 
> > *Continued:*
> ...


----------



## Mogami Kyoko (May 3, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> This isn't about other people is it?It's about Sakura and Hinata, and who he can relate to.



Alright. If you want to talk about relations, he can relate to Sakura as well. 
Both of them want to be acknowledged. 




> He rejected her offer because an examiner wrote him down for cheating.Naruto even said himself she might get in trouble for helping him.



Re-read this:

Cristiano Madrid dream is dead, could have it been done by the 2-6? 

Naruto was also doing this so Sakura and Sasuke didn't have to pay the penalty either.
Also, just correcting, Naruto didn't think to himself that Hinata would get in trouble too, he told her directly. 




> Are you forgetting the confession?She went from Plain Dark Weirdo, to friend, to important person who loved him and would protect him with her life.



No, I haven't forgotten the confession. And as for how Naruto feels/responds to this confession officially, we don't know yet. Therefore, I'm leaving the confession out.



> Actually Kurenai was already there.Naruto rushed in, and Sakura and Lee followed.The other rookies stayed back



Yeah, Kurenai was already there, but she wasn't by Hinata's side. She was busy holding Neji back from killing her off completely. She didn't go to Hinata's side until she collapsed.

And if you look here:

pwned
It looks like Naruto, Sakura and Lee arrived, pretty much at the same time.




> That blood vow was mostly towards Hinata, he didn't know any other failures at that time.



Don't make me repeat myself. Naruto made it, generally, to *all failures.* Including himself.
Plus, I'm sure Naruto took a hint from Lee when Lee said that he understood Naruto so well, that it hurt. 




> No, that's not the only reason,another reason he made that vow is because Hinata tried her hardest to get respect from Neji, but Neji resented her for being a main branch member.It relates to Naruto trying to get respect from villagers.



I don't recall Naruto adding that into his vow. The vow he made was to beat Neji to prove that failures will not always remain failures, like he said.
Naruto didn't say or think a thing about how hard Hinata tried to gain Neji's respect.




> After the three year time skip, you think Hinata is still like what she was in Part1?



Honestly, yes, I think she is the same. I don't see any outstanding characteristics that are different from her 12 year old self.
I am willing to believe that the recent chapters might include her development, but I can't know for sure.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, Hinata, to me, is like Part 1 Sakura. 




> Lol I don't know how this relates to ch103 but oh well.
> Exactly, because he was already going to go after Sasuke for Sasuke and himself before he made the promise to Sakura, he's not just doing it for Sakura, but himself too.



I think we have the wrong chapter in mind. The chapter we were aiming for is chapter 183.

What do you mean you don't know how it relates?? It was in the same chapter!
Oy...

Look, this part of the argument started when you said that Naruto's promise to Sakura was not only for Sakura.

Yes, Naruto was doing it for Sasuke and himself. But the Promise of a Lifetime he made to Sakura was for Sakura and Sakura alone. It was him showing how much he cared for Sakura and her happiness.




> Ok since you said before, that Hinata thinking about Naruto is all one sided and doesn't count as development, I guess it means Sakura thinking about Naruto doesn't count as development either, it's only fair since you said that.And I don't want to hear about how it's just slow development , because that's not always the case.



So what you're saying is that if I say that Hinata's thoughts for Naruto are one-sided, then so are Sakura's?
Good grief. Forgive me if I sound rude but...what's wrong with you?
We already know *Naruto is in love with Sakura.* Therefore, it cannot be one-sided!

No, it's not always the case, but apparently Kishi wanted it that way, because it seems to me that this IS the case!
Slowly developed relationships are more realistic anyways. For all we know, that could be what Kishi is aiming for.



> Another situation that could be possible is that Naruto is clutching his heart and thinking "Sasuke why did you sacrifice yourself for me?". Because if you think about it, Sasuke sacrificed himself without thinking and without reason.It makes perfect sense if Naruto feels hurt, for being the reason of Sasuke's supposed "death",and not being able to fend for himself in a tough situation



You're just assuming things now.
Okay, okay. Since you're SO bent on trying to convince me that Naruto gripped his heart for Sasuke instead of Sakura's cries, which were in the same panel as Naruto gripping his heart, then please.
Show me cold hard proof and evidence that Naruto was thinking about Sasuke at the time. Show me.
I'm pretty sure that if Kishi was having Naruto thinking about Sasuke, then he would have added some sort of dialogue on Naruto's part. Otherwise, the readers would never be able to figure out that Naruto was thinking about Sasuke.
Since he didn't, the only conclusion is that Naruto was gripping his heart for Sakura.

Geez, Kishi didn't write this manga so you would have to look into it so hard. In Japan, this story is originally aimed for ages 10 and up. (Yes! 10 year olds in Japan read Naruto!) I don't think he's going to add in things that pre-teens can't figure out.

And by the way you're arguing with me, it almost seems as if you're trying to convince me that Naruto wasn't in love with Sakura in part 1. And if you're trying to prove that, then that's like trying to prove that Kakashi didn't have the sharingan in his left eye. 




> I only see partII as deepening in friendship since their friend is gone and they are working hard to bring him back.



YOU only see that because you're being very close minded. You admitted that to me in one of the earlier posts.
"I don't notice anything I'm aren't interested in."
You haven't seen it because you refuse to acknowledge anything that isn't NaruHina.
While in comparison, many other people, even unbiased people have said that NaruSaku is the most likely pairing of them all. 




> She wasn't even planning on giving anyone advice in the first place.But since Naruto asked, why the hell not? Btw, Sasuke is a genius he can do it himself.Why bother to ask him?



Why not? Because many people assume that Sakura hate's Naruto's guts. If Sakura hated Naruto, then she wouldn't have given him the advice.
And it was fairly obvious that Sasuke was struggling with the training like Naruto. One would think that Sakura would normally go and give Sasuke advice too.

But this argument is pointless, so I'm dropping this section of it.




> I hate repeating myself.All I can say is, it can mean a lot of things. Opinions on what we think they are thinking don't make fact.This arguement can go on to infinity.



I could say the same thing. I've been repeating things to you countlessly.

Are you saying that we're arguing through opinions?
I'm arguing through facts. That's all I'm doing.




> Comedy. They're always funny when Sakura rejects him over and over again.And Naruto asks at the most random times.ch350 p.1 is a good example of comedy.



Hey. I'm not the writer. If Kishi thinks it's funny, then that's why he added it.
A lot of this kind of humor is seen in many other anime/manga too. Surely you've seen it right?
I've read and watched many anime/manga for years. This sort of comedy is not uncommon to me at all.

Guy asks girl he likes out, girl rejects him. 
And it's put in a comedic way. 

It's fairly common, actually.


----------



## mystic868 (May 3, 2009)

Naruto's Hinata said:


> U say that oh, that KN4 scene was the rise of u guys when Yamoto made that comment, hey he didn't even finsh that sentence!!!


That was done for special <omg> That would be too easy just to say "You really...love him" And what then? NaruHina fans would make suicide 



Serena-hime said:


> To Sakura, Naruto's situation as a Jinchuuriki is a very important matter to her.
> Also, if you look into the next chapter, when Naruto collapses, Sakura holds him and actually wants to postpone the mission so Naruto can recover completely. That means putting off rescuing and seeing Sasuke.



Yes it' really important matter to her. And yes IMO she would postpone the mission if Naruto would decide that he cannot go any further. But that wouldn't be our brave Naruto so he decided to continue first of all for HER and for sake of lifetime promise even that she relased him from it before.


----------



## m o l o k o (May 3, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Comedy. They're always funny when Sakura rejects him over and over again.And Naruto asks at the most random times.ch350 p.1 is a good example of comedy.



This argument was dead even before it became an argument.
If it wasn?t comedy, we would see Naruto being actually disappointed.
It?s the same with the hitting: If it was meant to be physically abuse, Naruto would avoid Sakura?s company or at least feel threatened by it.


----------



## The Duchess (May 3, 2009)

Naruto's Hinata said:


> Believe it6, I will try to make this as respectful and friendly as possible, I hate to argue...But the reason why we NH supporters are here is becuz we think about the nice love, the cute one, not the one where, OMG SHE JUST GAVE HIM A BLACK EYE, love...


Yeah, cute love where only Hinata's feelings matter.

Face it, there's no such thing as a perfect fandom. NH's no exception.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> We also support logic, each one of u say Hinata is weak, obessive, and sometimes a stalker, and thats major disrespect for her character...But hey if I say that Sakura is agressive, abusive, emotionally weak character, then hell u guys would kill me in a instant, but I respect Sakura becuz she is just so similar to me.


Wait, so NS shippers always say that Hinata's weak, a stalker, etc, while NH shippers don't do that kind of thing at all?



I guess you haven't really gone on Youtube, FF.net, or this forum in general because the amount of Sakura bashing is kinda hard to miss.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> U say that oh, that KN4 scene was the rise of u guys when Yamoto made that comment, hey he didn't even finsh that sentence!!!


Tell me how the KN4 scene _didn't_ hint towards NS at all, without using lame grasping-at-straws examples instead.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> Yet u guys thought he was about to say something about Naruto, u call Hinata selfish once....
> 
> WTF!!!!REALLY NOW!!!
> 
> ...


Just so you know, Hinata called her own actions selfish. So, yeah.

By the way, what do you mean "pushing back the guy to give your crush some time"?

Anyway, I think Hinata said she was being selfish because she was trying to tell Naruto her feelings while he was in the middle of a battle. She knew she couldn't defeat Pain, the only reason she intervened was for her own feelings.

You decide whether that's selfish or not. I'm just stating what I think Hinata meant by "selfish".



Naruto's Hinata said:


> But no, *screaming at Naruto to bing back Sasuke*, and crying over it so long and hard that ur eyes turn red, knowing that Naruto has a crush on u...Then when he comes back go out with a few dates with him, meet Sasuke again and be reminded how much u missed him and cry a bit, then when Naruto turns KN4, STILL scream the other guy name while running to Naruto...
> 
> That not selfishness THATS DEVELOPMENT!!!!


What the hell? When did Sakura scream for Naruto to do that?

Ok, I'm guessing that your point here is that Sakura was selfish because she was screaming Sasuke's name while running towards Naruto.



Sakura: *sees Naruto and KN4 mode and runs towards him* SASUKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!



Naruto's Hinata said:


> Naruto becoming Hokage, getting acknowleged by the village, returning his best friend back home, and getting the girl who completly ignored him during the first half of part one
> 
> Sakura sound like a trophey wife now, she won't mean much any more, she just some woman, who beats the crap out of Naruto if he does the slightest thin wrong


Do you even know what a trophy wife _is_? Because there's a difference between a woman who doesn't do anything and exists soley for her husband and a woman who "beats the crap out of her husband if he does the slightest thing wrong"?

Anyway, how could you possibly think that somebody with Sakura's archetype would ever become a trophy wife? She's more strong-willed than that, something you should know if you respect her as much as you say you do.

If you're looking for trophy wife, try Hinata. You know, someone who's actually proven to live mostly for Naruto.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> That sound like friendship, truthful friendship, and if Naruto is so comfortable with Sakura, why do he half to lie about his feelings, he lied once telling Sakura he was thinking of a way to get her alone when in tuthfully he was thinking of Sasuke...


See, this is what gets me confused. Anti-NSers say that Sakura's way too abusive for Naruto, yet they're still really good friends and/or brother and sister. I'm pretty sure that being abusive to someone wouldn't just alienate a romantic possibility, it would alienate any friendship at all. So pick a side, will ya? Either Sakura's too abusive to be with Naruto at all (romantic or not) or she isn't.

It's funny how the abusive thing only works from a romantic aspect.



Naruto's Hinata said:


> Love, u don't need to lie about ur feelings, u can tell the other person everything thats on u mind without feeling that 'oh I'm going to get hit' or 'she might kill me'


Wasn't the "she might kill me" thought brought with a smile? I'm pretty sure Naruto wasn't serious or he wouldn't be friends with her.


----------



## Nadini (May 3, 2009)

This 'abusive' shit has gone on long enough, if people actually read other manga besides NARDOOO, BLEEECH and DETHNOET, you'd figure out its overused and cliche, and _never_, _ever _impaired the characters relationship


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## Louchan (May 3, 2009)

nadini said:


> This 'abusive' shit has gone on long enough, if people actually read other manga besides NARDOOO, BLEEECH and DETHNOET, you'd figure out its overused and cliche, and _never_, _ever _impaired the characters relationship


Ironically enough, it's usually the exact opposite.
The _"girl hits boy"_ pairings being the ones that happen 90% of the time. 
Of course, I'm not saying that just because Sakura hits Naruto _(in a comedic fashion)_ it means that NaruSaku is destinied to happen.
I'm just saying that it hardly lowers it's chances in any way.
Especially since Kishi is known to be a man of clichés.


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 3, 2009)

yalimei said:


> This argument was dead even before it became an argument.
> If it wasn´t comedy, we would see Naruto being actually disappointed.
> It´s the same with the hitting: If it was meant to be physically abuse, Naruto would avoid Sakura´s company or at least feel threatened by it.


Exactly, because it is comedy.
I'm sure a ton of people would agree with me, but i don't see how asking someone on a date out of the blue, at the most random times,and getting rejected with a funny response, taking it seriously.

Are you sure you got me on the right side?


----------



## Nadini (May 3, 2009)

^
So, because a relationship has a comedic aspect to it, its not serious?

There much be, tears, blood, angst, depression, and other sad shit that doesn't belong in this genre, right? 




I kindly ask you, how much manga have you read in your life?


OH LOOK! HINATA FAINTED INFRONT OF NARUTO! ITS COMEDIC!!

LOL NOTSRSBZNS 

see how that works?


----------



## αce (May 3, 2009)

If Naruto doesn't take hinata, he'll be responsible for her suicide.

I'd cut both my arms off from the shoulders rather than see a NaruSaku tragedy.


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## Louchan (May 3, 2009)

mangekyoo sasuke said:


> If Naruto doesn't take hinata, he'll be responsible for her suicide.
> 
> I'd cut both my arms off from the shoulders rather than see a NaruSaku tragedy.


So you're saying that Hinata exists for no other reason than to be Naruto's potential wife?
And that Naruto *must* date her out of pity rather than love?
Oh wow. 

And do explain what you mean by _"a NaruSaku tragedy"_.
This is a debate thread after all.


----------



## doobrer (May 3, 2009)

Louchan said:


> Ironically enough, it's usually the exact opposite.
> The _"girl hits boy"_ pairings being the ones that happen 90% of the time.
> Of course, I'm not saying that just because Sakura hits Naruto _(in a comedic fashion)_ it means that NaruSaku is destinied to happen.
> I'm just saying that it hardly lowers it's chances in any way.
> Especially since Kishi is known to be a man of clich?s.


Not really, 90 percent of shonen romances are plot focused or unreasolved. Plus there's shonen anime where the main character isn't hit by their love interest alot, like Simon for TTGL, Yugi from Yugi oh, Kenshin, Light, Mako, and even that guy from Buso Renkin.


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## Louchan (May 3, 2009)

doobrer said:


> Not really, 90 percent of shonen romances are plot focused or unreasolved. Plus there's shonen anime where the main character isn't hit by their love interest alot, like Simon for TTGL, Yugi from Yugi oh, Kenshin, Light, Mako, and even that guy from Buso Renkin.


You misunderstood me.
I'm saying that in shonen anime *where there is* a _"girl hits boy"_ pairing, it's usually the one that will happen in the end.
If there is no such pairing, then it obviously can't happen, can it?


----------



## doobrer (May 3, 2009)

Thats not true either, Yoko and simon where the main characters and they didn't end up with each other. Neither did Light or Misa. Ban Mido and Lady Poison.


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## Louchan (May 3, 2009)

doobrer said:


> Thats not true either, Yoko and simon where the main characters and they didn't end up with each other. Neither did Light or Misa. Ban Mido and Lady Poison.


You're not listening to what I'm saying. 


Louchan said:


> *where there is a "girl hits boy" pairing*


I've said *nothing* about main characters.


----------



## Kathutet (May 3, 2009)

mangekyoo sasuke said:


> If Naruto doesn't take hinata, he'll be responsible for her suicide.


Sure, Naruto'll be responsible for another person's idiocy. 
Not to mention that he isn't even that interested in Hinata. For crying out loud.



> I'd cut both my arms off from the shoulders rather than see a NaruSaku tragedy.


I approve.


----------



## doobrer (May 3, 2009)

Louchan said:


> You're not listening to what I'm saying.
> 
> I've said *nothing* about main characters.


Oh okay, well Nami hits Luffy and she's not into him.



> Sure, Naruto'll be responsible for another person's idiocy.
> Not to mention that he isn't even that interested in Hinata. For crying out loud.


Are your saying Naruto won't be interested into someone who killed herself for knowing she's in love with him, if anything it just make Naruto so angry he'd let the Kyuubi out again and this time he'd let it stay out.

And you don't know Naruto's not interested, he's dense as a rock so he's probably doesn't even notice. I'm sure that'll change.


----------



## Kathutet (May 3, 2009)

doobrer said:


> Oh okay, well Nami hits Luffy and she's not into him.


What are you trying to prove by using other manga as evidence?
Chichi hits Goku 99% of they day and they are a couple.

There. Now let's start using _this_ manga for evidence.


----------



## doobrer (May 3, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> What are you trying to prove by using other manga as evidence?
> Chichi hits Goku 99% of they day and they are a couple.
> 
> There. Now let's start using _this_ manga for evidence.


Goku is either dead or doing Chi Chi's biding. I've never seen her hit Goku constantly. Besides Chi Chi hits everyone. Plus Chi Chi isn't the main female, Bulma is.


----------



## Kathutet (May 3, 2009)

doobrer said:


> Goku is either dead or doing Chi Chi's biding. I've never seen her hit Goku constantly. Besides Chi Chi hits everyone. Plus Chi Chi isn't the main female, Bulma is.


Did you see Sakura constantly hitting Naruto? No. Only for comedic relief, which happens to be the same reason for Chichi's hitting on Goku. Consistency please.

The main female is Tsunade, so... What are you trying to prove here?

This has nothing to do with _this_ manga. It's been done to death.
Let's get back to Naruto, alright?


----------



## doobrer (May 3, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> *Did you see Sakura constantly hitting Naruto?* No. Only for comedic relief, which happens to be the same reason for Chichi's hitting on Goku. Consistency please.
> 
> The main female is Tsunade, so... What are you trying to prove here?
> 
> ...


In the anime maybe, but thats just how it is. Sakura is a bipolar violent prude. She hit Konoharmaru to.

Sakura is main female. And Bulma is the main female as well, she didn't end up with Goku despite her hitting him back alot in the manga.


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## Louchan (May 3, 2009)

doobrer said:


> Oh okay, well Nami hits Luffy and she's not into him.


I haven't read One Piece so I can't give my opinion about that.



doobrer said:


> Are your saying Naruto won't be interested into someone who killed herself for knowing she's in love with him,


... Huh? 
Sorry, but I don't remember Hinata killing herself.
Last I checked she was very much alive.
And no, I don't think you can magically fall in love with someone you hardly know just because they made a sacrifice for you.
That would just be out of pity.



doobrer said:


> if anything it just make Naruto so angry he'd let the Kyuubi out again and this time he'd let it stay out.


I have no idea what you're talking about anymore.



doobrer said:


> And you don't know Naruto's not interested, he's dense as a rock so he's probably doesn't even notice. I'm sure that'll change.


So you're saying Naruto secrectly loves Hinata, a person whom he's spent less than 10 minutes interacting with throughout the entire series, but is too stupid to realize it himself?
Haha, oh wow. 
So what about his feelings for Sakura?
Go on, I'm very curious about your opinion on them.



doobrer said:


> Goku is either dead or doing Chi Chi's biding. I've never seen her hit Goku constantly. Besides Chi Chi hits everyone. Plus Chi Chi isn't the main female, Bulma is.


Again, no one has said *ANYTHING* about a pairing needing to consist only of main characters to happen.
You're the one who's constantly bringing it up.


----------



## Kathutet (May 3, 2009)

doobrer said:


> In the anime maybe, but thats just how it is.


Uh, exactly.



> Sakura is a bipolar violent prude. She hit Konoharmaru to.


It seems that you're not capable of understanding when beating people is for comedic relief and when it's for real in this manga. So, I got ya an example.

Naruto headbutting Gaara's head: srs.
Sakura pimpslapping Konohamaru 'cause he called her ugly: not srs, comedic relief durr.




> Sakura is main female.


Well, fine. Even if she is it doesn't change anything.



> And Bulma is the main female as well, she didn't end up with Goku despite her hitting him back alot in the manga.


... Can't you read? Quit this BS DBZ talk. It's not relevant.


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 3, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> Serena-hime said:
> 
> 
> > Alright. If you want to talk about relations, he can relate to Sakura as well.
> ...


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 3, 2009)

nadini said:


> ^
> So, because a relationship has a comedic aspect to it, its not serious?
> 
> There much be, tears, blood, angst, depression, and other sad shit that doesn't belong in this genre, right?
> ...


We were talking about Naruto's date requests...

 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I've read quite alot of manga actually,too much to remember.


----------



## m o l o k o (May 3, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> You see,the problem I have with your wave arc development is that, do you really think a blush, or an eye contact is enough to signify romantic development in another person?



Same could be asked about NaruHina

As for Naruto?s date requests, I wasn?t quite sure what you were trying to say. First Sakura rejecting Naruto must be taken serious and only NaruSaku shipper say it?s for comedic relief, then suddenly it i_s_ comedy and therefor not serious enough to be a solid pro NaruSaku argument (which it isn?t anyways)?
Doesn?t make sense to me.


----------



## Temp_Position (May 3, 2009)

I think anyone of these pairings could work. When it comes to love and relationships, it doesnt have to make sense, so why try to make sense of your pairing? Its a fantasy manga. You can like anyone you like without having someone tell you other wise. 

I dont see why everyone has to stress over proving there pairing elite. They are all good and could all happen.


----------



## Peter (May 3, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> I think anyone of these pairings could work. When it comes to love and relationships, it doesnt have to make sense, so why try to make sense of your pairing? Its a fantasy manga. You can like anyone you like without having someone tell you other wise.
> 
> I dont see why everyone has to stress over proving there pairing elite. They are all good and could all happen.



You're right, they all have a chance of happening. 

But it would be *bad writing* if a pairing just magically happened.


----------



## ILikeToast (May 3, 2009)

I can understand why NaruSaku fans are saying that theres always room for comedy in pairings, such as hitting and rejections initially.

But there seems to be too much of this now. Its getting to the stage where its gonna be - 

Naruto: Date?
Sakura: Nope
Naruto: *sigh*

the amount of times she has hit him  simply phenominal. Theres just too much 'comedy' now and too few real moments. I know NaruHina has had 0 development so far in Part 2 besides the Confession (which btw was the most development ive ever seen in one chapter of anything), but NaruSaku hasnt had much to boast about either.

And Naruto hasnt replied to Hinata yet either, so you cant say that he doesnt care.


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 3, 2009)

yalimei said:


> Same could be asked about NaruHina
> 
> As for Naruto?s date requests, I wasn?t quite sure what you were trying to say. First Sakura rejecting Naruto must be taken serious and only NaruSaku shipper say it?s for comedic relief, then suddenly it i_s_ comedy and therefor not serious enough to be a solid pro NaruSaku argument (which it isn?t anyways)?
> Doesn?t make sense to me.


It was shown Hinata cares alot about Naruto.It's different from early acknowledgment.

When did I say Sakura rejecting Naruto should be taken seriously?
Nah it's all comedy dude.But it sure is random...


----------



## Temp_Position (May 3, 2009)

I have a feeling that everyone is acting like they're defending *there* relationship, not the pairings relationship. Its like someone insulted your relationship with your sig other, you get defensive and feel like you have to rationalize it. You already know why you like the pairing you like. (Because you identify with one of the characters in your OTP). No need to defend it. 

Screw everyone else's opinions and "facts." All these so called facts are inconclusive because they are interpretative and colored by your own feelings. not logic. geez.

lol, the romance in this manga is already badly written. It cant get any worst.


----------



## Forlong (May 3, 2009)

> U say that oh, that KN4 scene was the rise of u guys when Yamoto made that comment, hey he didn't even finsh that sentence!!!


So, what do you think he was trying to say? 



> But no, screaming at Naruto to bing back Sasuke, and crying over it so long and hard that ur eyes turn red, knowing that Naruto has a crush on u...Then when he comes back go out with a few dates with him, meet Sasuke again and be reminded how much u missed him and cry a bit, then when Naruto turns KN4, STILL scream the other guy name while running to Naruto...


"I'll save Sasuke-kun for you!"
Sounds pretty selfless to me.



> Sakura sound like a trophey wife now, she won't mean much any more, she just some woman, who beats the crap out of Naruto if he does the slightest thin wrong


:rofl
A women who "beats the crap out of a guy" would become a trophey wife?  What manner of bullshit is this?



> That sound like friendship, truthful friendship, and if Naruto is so comfortable with Sakura, why do he half to lie about his feelings, he lied once telling Sakura he was thinking of a way to get her alone when in tuthfully he was thinking of Sasuke...


Truthful friendship is him lying?  Your logic is flawed.



> @Forlong, Naruto called Sakura an ugly whore...development??


Not in filler, it doesn't.

ZARU!



Serena-hime said:


> No worries. I'm a she.  lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You beat me to it again.  I really like you.  Let's be friends.



BruceLeefan said:


> I only see partII as deepening in friendship since their friend is gone and they are working hard to bring him back.


An logically, love NEVER comes from deepening friendship. 



mystic868 said:


> That was done for special <omg> That would be too easy just to say "You really...love him" And what then? NaruHina fans would make suicide


Yeah, better to wait 'til near the end of the manga to make them do that.



nadini said:


> This 'abusive' shit has gone on long enough, if people actually read other manga besides NARDOOO, BLEEECH and DETHNOET, you'd figure out its overused and cliche, and _never_, _ever _impaired the characters relationship


I haven't noticed it in "Bleach".



BruceLeefan said:


> Exactly what Hinata wants


And Sakura.  There goes that arguement.



BruceLeefan said:


> You see,the problem I have with your wave arc development is that, do you really think a blush, or an eye contact is enough to signify romantic development in another person?Didn't it occur to you that Sakura was just faintly surprised that an "idiot" who couldn't even perfect one bunshin no jutsu, was able to improve drastically, and be a leader for once?Even Sasuke and Kakashi was surprised at his improvement, so does that mean that they have romantic interests in Him too?No


First off, Sakura wasn't surprised that Naruto knew the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu.  She found out about that well before that mission.  Kakashi and Sasuke didn't blush.



BruceLeefan said:


> Alright sure since he's gripping his heart for sakura I guess this panel:
> well before that mission
> He 's gripping his heart for Hinata, because Hinata was the first to come into his mind,when he asked Katsuyu is everyone is alright.Naruto crys in relief, and Hinata happens to show in the next page.
> well before that mission



*Spoiler*: __ 



Have to say that does indicate that Naruto might love Hinata, even in the platonic sense.  Congradulations for FINNALLY finding concrete evidance to your arguement.  And it only took you a month after that chapter came out.


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 3, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> I have a feeling that everyone is acting like they're defending *there* relationship, not the pairings relationship. Its like someone insulted your relationship with your sig other, you get defensive and feel like you have to rationalize it. You already know why you like the pairing you like. No need to defend it.
> 
> Screw everyone else's opinions and "facts." All these so called facts are inconclusive because they are interpretative and colored by your own feelings. not logic. geez.
> 
> lol, the romance in this manga is already badly written. It cant get any worst.


I get where you're coming from dude.These debates don't really change the other side's mind.But it helps the new readers decide for themselves which side to take.


----------



## Temp_Position (May 3, 2009)

Your right, people are pretty much set with their pairings, not because of logic, but because its personal to them.  Maybe its stress-relieving for the debators, lol, I shouldnt burst there bubble. I should just leave it alone. Real life relationships or lack of a relationship is stressful enough. Its nice to debate about other people's relationships.


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## Mogami Kyoko (May 3, 2009)

Forlong said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Have to say that does indicate that Naruto might love Hinata, even in the platonic sense.  Congradulations for FINNALLY finding concrete evidance to your arguement.  And it only took you a month after that chapter came out.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Since we both seem to be on the same team here, I'm going to correct you here:

That scene did not prove anything about how Naruto feels about Hinata.
Yes, he remembered Hinata, because her supposed death was the last thing he saw before he went Kyuubi. And once he remembered her, he remembered the whole village. Naruto knew he went Kyuubi and he began to worry/panic that he may have killed/hurt the villagers and destroyed the village. 
In sage mode, he's able to feel chakra from quite a ways away. When he felt that the village and his friends were okay, he gripped his heart in relief. Katsuya the slug also realized this and said she's glad that no one got hurt because of Naruto.
Naruto then cries saying "Thank Goodness" and grips his heart in relief that no one was killed or hurt because of him.

Remember, Naruto made a vow that he would never use the Kyuubi's power ever again _because_ he ended up hurting his loved ones when he did. (Sakura and Jiraiya)

Therefore, it is not solid evidence at all.

Hehe, didn't want you to be mislead.


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## Temp_Position (May 3, 2009)

^ I agree. Sakura and Hinata do care about the guys they say they love. The only question that needs to be answered is "do the guys acknowledge and like them back?"  We hardly have any information on there thoughts or feelings about the girls that like them. Its not rational to assume anything. Its best to wait for the manga to be completed.


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## Temp_Position (May 4, 2009)

^lol, are you on a break from school?

Ill get on topic. In conclusions. Lets not fight each other because its unknown in the end. who knows? Kishi might pair Naruto or Sasuke with some random girl from a random village. You might like her, or be forced to like her. Its a likely chance this might happen since there are so many holes in pairing either Sakura or Hinata with either two. Love/crushes only gets you so far if your incompatible.


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## incrediboy (May 4, 2009)

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been addressed, but...

nowhere

Kishi's notes on Sakura as a character. Just wondering what Sasusaku fans think of Kishi defining it as "selfish love". Seems to me that it isn't exactly the same as true love, more at the crush end of the scale, and that this isn't exactly a real relationship.


----------



## mystic868 (May 4, 2009)

IMO Sakura and Naruto are like Misato and Kushina even if they were described lightly 
And if NaruHina fans said - Naruto won't throw away any bond so it goes for Hinata too, then what will happen to Sakura's bond if she will(as Kishi said) grow up soon and will confess her true feelings for Naruto? He will reject her because he was made to accept only Hinata's love?


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## Afalstein (May 4, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> IMO Sakura and Naruto are like Misato and Kushina even if they were described lightly
> And if NaruHina fans said - Naruto won't throw away any bond so it goes for Hinata too, then what will happen to Sakura's bond if she will(as Kishi said) grow up soon and will confess her true feelings for Naruto? He will reject her because he was made to accept only Hinata's love?



Never read the description of Misato and Kushina before, but Jiraiya and Tsunade seem like a more obvious comparison.

By the way, this is a little off topic, but does anyone get the impression that Nagato is like Sasuke and his freind (forget his name) like Naruto?  Except his friend died, of course.

Did Kishi say that?  I haven't heard that before.  Half the debate on here is whether Sakura actually feels that way (which I'm not going to debate here).  If such an event occurs, then there will be a conflict and he will probably have to reject one or the other.  I don't pretend to know which.  But presently, there is no such conflict, so I see no reason why he shouldn't accept Hinata.


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## m o l o k o (May 4, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> It was shown Hinata cares alot about Naruto.It's different from early acknowledgment.



Wait, what?
It is also shown that Sakura cares a lot about Naruto.
What´s so bad about her coming to acknowledge him?



> When did I say Sakura rejecting Naruto should be taken seriously?
> Nah it's all comedy dude.



So you actually _do_ agree with me and a whole lot of NaruSaku shippers: Sakura rejecting Naruto should not be taken seriously.
(I would prefer not to be adressed with "dude", by the way.)



> But it sure is random...


And a shy girl confessing her undying love to a guy who will immediately fall in love with her after that isn´t random?


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

NaruSaku is the most serious _relationship_ after NaruSasu 

So Naruto being rejected by Sakura isn't a joke


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## mystic868 (May 4, 2009)

It would be really shame to create NaruHina after this long and beautiful evolution of mutual feelings between Naruto and Sakura. And as Kishimoto-sama said she will grow up, so I think it's just right time for her to confess her true feelings for Naruto.


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## Nadini (May 4, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> NaruSaku is the most serious _relationship_ after NaruSasu
> 
> So Naruto being rejected by Sakura isn't a joke



nope, SasuSaku is the most serious relationship after NaruSasu, NaruSaku are brother and sister and everything is comedic around them comedy =/= seriousness, SasuSaku is very serious.
Because Sakura is mature and Sasuke needs to revive his clan.


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## Kathutet (May 4, 2009)

It all comes down to this:



Sakura is a bitch that hits him.
Naruto is too good for Sakura.
Hinata is awesome and therefore she must claim Naruto as her own.
Development = shit, there is only trulubs from the start or there is nothing.
Naruto has always trulubz'd Hinata, while he didn't even want to look to Sakura.
Hinata deserves Naruto more than anyone else.
Sasuke is destined to use Sakura to revive his clan (I poop'd a little)
Sakura's feelings can never change.
Naruto's feelings _can_ change.
Sasuke doesn't have feelings YET, but he WILL develop them as soon as he meets Sakura again.
And so on, and so on.

This pairing debate is pathetic.


----------



## Afalstein (May 4, 2009)

@Kitsune Naruto

Dude, I'm a NaruHina myself, but are you TRYING to make people mad?  You've got so many unwarranted assumptions in there I can't even keep track of them.


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## Kathutet (May 4, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> @Kitsune Naruto
> 
> Dude, I'm a NaruHina myself, but are you TRYING to make people mad?  You've got so many unwarranted assumptions in there I can't even keep track of them.


Reading this garbage is what is getting me mad.

As for the last part; you've no idea how many unwarranted assumptions I've been seeing by any. Type. Of pairing fan here. No idea.

Too many double standards by all three of these pairings. For crying out loud. Naruto can't change his love for Sakura, but Sakura can for Naruto. Wtf?
Sasuke is very interested in Sakura, but Naruto is not in Sakura. Wtf?
Holy fucking shit, I've even seen 'Hinata is not in love with Naruto' pass by.

Do you see why I'm raging?


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

nadini said:


> nope, SasuSaku is the most serious relationship after NaruSasu, NaruSaku are brother and sister and everything is comedic around them comedy =/= seriousness, SasuSaku is very serious.
> Because Sakura is mature and Sasuke needs to revive his clan.



What can I do against such invincible logic 

The fact Naruto doesn't wangst negatively over the past like Sasuke does doesn't make his position less serious when it comes to romance. Sasuke never lacked attention [in Team 7] or obvious romantic pursuit. And he never gave a flying rat's ass about Sakura's lurve in ways that aren't _extremely_ arguable. All he cared about in the end was being superior for just his revenge, ignoring the dear people of the present or possible future. The fact he can break bonds like that isn't a joke. SasuSaku is close to being non-existant while Sasuke fails to be swayed by even Naruto, who undeniably represents Sasuke's possibility to turn away from the darkness.
Naruto, who holds onto someone like Sasuke in a *very* unordinary way, can't be taken seriously when it comes to Sakura? People got to be kidding. The PoaL is a heavily emotional scene by all effects that doesn't just regard Sasuke's loss; it has to do with the feelings Naruto harbored towards Sakura, however one feels to interpret them. It would have been awesome for me if Naruto could have just NOT thought about Sakura's well-being so much, but I'm that fantarded to not acknowledge what's there. Not considering Naruto's care for Sakura means not arguing much for the rest of the Big 3 either. In Part 2 Naruto's pursuit is extremely ambigious [cos the poor guy just doesn't have as much on his mind like avenger Sasuke ] but that gives no excuse to an *evidently* one-sided pairing like SasuSaku for flattering itself as more "serious". Just degrading to a character who would die for both.

As for NaruHina - too bad its seriousness can't overcome how much its underdeveloped.


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## JERITROLL (May 4, 2009)

@Afalstein

lol, yes, he is. Look into the users, you'll understand.



Afalstein said:


> Never read the description of Misato and Kushina before, but Jiraiya and Tsunade seem like a more obvious comparison.



He means Minato and Kushina. It's not a good comparison because we know so little about it. Jiraiya and Tsunade is good though.



> By the way, this is a little off topic, but does anyone get the impression that
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I get the same impression as well. And the friend's name is 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Yakiho 


, btw. This isn't the place for discussing that (and you have to tag stuff like that in Hou), but I'll gladly discuss it anywhere it's supposed to be discusses 



> Did Kishi say that?  I haven't heard that before.



Yes, he has, and he has said it multiple times IIRC. 



> Half the debate on here is whether Sakura actually feels that way (which I'm not going to debate here).  If such an event occurs, then there will be a conflict and he will probably have to reject one or the other.  I don't pretend to know which.  But presently, there is no such conflict, so I see no reason why he shouldn't accept Hinata.



Personally, I don't see any reason Naruto should have to jump into a relationship with someone he hardly knows, but that's just me. Anyways, I'm not so sure about that... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



We need to wait for the next chapters with Hinata and Sakura, as well as seeing what happens when Naruto and Sakura see each other the first time since the place was nuked before we can really say that NH or NS has a higher chance as of right now. Sakura did NOT look pleased in the two chapters she was healing Hinata in, not to mention that in the original Japanese text, the "Hinata... Loves... Naruto..." was actually a fragmented sentence that PROBABLY would have had love in there (there's little else that works in the context, but it was jumping the gun and ignoring the fact that it was supposed to be vague. Honestly, if the mis-trans were cannon, it would help me more XD).


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 4, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> NaruSaku is the most serious _relationship_ after NaruSasu
> 
> So Naruto being rejected by Sakura isn't a joke



How about this question then.  If Sakura's feeling's have been growing for Naruto then why hasn't she accepted one of the date requests yet?  Or at least given an indication that she would like to go on a date with Naruto at some point?  Or at least treated his feelings seriously?

Each date request has been blown off by either:

a) disinterest (i'm classifying 247 as disinterest since Sakura stipulates that the date be on the proviso that her food is free.  She stated she was hungry the page before the so called request.  There is no indication that she wants to go with him other than the prospect of free food, proved in the next chapter when Sakura is not there.  If it was about Naruto, she would go anyway).  No follow up in terms of Naruto nor Sakura's feelings.
b) Changing the subject, chapter 311.  Again, not taking Naruto's so called feelings seriously.  No follow up in terms of Naruto nor Sakura's feelings.
c) Extreme anger/disgust, chapter 350.  Immediate reaction to date request.  No follow up in terms of Naruto nor Sakura's feelings.

Seriously. If she's been gradually growing to love him as is claimed then why not accept one of the date requests? Put it this way, if her feelings are unsure (and some people claim that she already loves him, though i have issues with this...) shouldn't she be willing to give it a shot or at the very least take Naruto seriously?

And to take that point on, the fact that Naruto and Sakura are friends makes the idea that she might like him romantically even harder to reconcile. If one of my friends approached me with romantic interest, i woud treat it seriously because i value that friendship. Rejecting someone the way Sakura does to Naruto is awful if the request in question is serious.

The only time you deny it categorically, or treat it as a joke, or act violently in response, basically, the only time you *don't address the issue* is when both of you know that neither of you are being hurt in the process and that the idea of that relationship is ridiculous.

Until the characters start to take the idea of romance seriously, its hard for me to take it seriously.  I've said this a number of times on here but NaruSaku *needs* follow up, not ambiguous scenes that can be interpreted any which way.



			
				Kitsune Naruto said:
			
		

> It all comes down to this:
> 
> 
> Sakura is a bitch that hits him.
> ...



That's not a very constructive comment is it?  You are bascially asking for an argument, rather than a debate.  You obviously have ideas on this subject so put them forward, with evidence or reasoning for why you do.  If you're not going to add anything useful, then don't comment at all.

I'm well aware that there are people on both sides of this debate that spam and post inflammatory comments, but just because one side does it, that doesn't justify anyone else's actions.

Let's keep it civil. 



			
				Kitsune Naruto said:
			
		

> Reading this garbage is what is getting me mad.
> 
> As for the last part; you've no idea how many unwarranted assumptions I've been seeing by any. Type. Of pairing fan here. No idea.
> 
> ...



If you're getting worked up just take a few deep breaths and go and do something else for a while.

In the end, this is all about a story.  With fictional characters.  I can see why someone would get exasperated, but not enraged...


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

Okay. Before needing to read a wall of text about the fail of NaruSaku, the fact it lacks serious romantic tension is pretty damn obvious. The reason for that has various justifcations, one nicely summarized by the essence known as SASUKE. If Naruto, who supposedly had romantic interest in Sakura, gets distracted by his thing with Sasuke, then there is little to imagine why neither of them are able to focus on each other in such sense.


----------



## Forlong (May 4, 2009)

yalimei said:


> (I would prefer not to be adressed with "dude", by the way.)


What's wrong with that, dude? 



nadini said:


> nope, SasuSaku is the most serious relationship after NaruSasu, NaruSaku are brother and sister and everything is comedic around them comedy =/= seriousness, SasuSaku is very serious.
> Because Sakura is mature and Sasuke needs to revive his clan.


There is no proof that they are like brother and sister, so stop bringing that arguement up.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> [1]Sakura is a bitch that hits him.
> [2]Naruto is too good for Sakura.
> [3]Hinata is awesome and therefore she must claim Naruto as her own.
> [4]Development = shit, there is only trulubs from the start or there is nothing.
> ...


This list is what's pathetic.
1: Filler doesn't count.  She's hit him about three times in the manga (I might be missing one).  Yeah, what a horid bitch. 
2: Naruto doesn't CARE!
3: I don't see how "awesomeness" makes a pairing canon. 
4: Did you type that, or just crap on your keyboard?  Plenty of people fall in love after knowing each other for years.  Developement doesn't automatically make a pairing, but it sure _helps_.
5: Where's the proof that Naruto loves Hinata?
6: Irrelevent.
7: It only makes perfect sense for Sakura to go back to a guy who tried to kill her, doesn't it? 
8 & 9: What manner of bullshit is this?
10: There are other women out there.



Afalstein said:


> @Kitsune Naruto
> 
> Dude, I'm a NaruHina myself, but are you TRYING to make people mad?  You've got so many unwarranted assumptions in there I can't even keep track of them.



Probably.


----------



## Kathutet (May 4, 2009)

Forlong said:


> This list is what's pathetic.
> 1: Filler doesn't count.  She's hit him about three times in the manga (I might be missing one).  Yeah, what a horid bitch.
> 2: Naruto doesn't CARE!
> 3: I don't see how "awesomeness" makes a pairing canon.
> ...


Kiddo, are you telling me you took this list for a fact? I've pointed out the idiocy that I've seen so far, not my own opinion on the subject. Holy...

I've truly seen it all now.

Let me give you my honest opinion then.

NH has a chance because of the latest development.
Naruto wants to score with Sakura. Sakura doesn't have those feelings yet.
Sasuke isn't interested in anything but his goals.
Sakura doesn't know what to do, love the blond or love the duckbutt.
Hinata knows what she wants since the start of this manga.

In short, there's nothing to debate about. That's why it's pathetic.
Now if you don't mind, consult wikipedia on the subject of sarcasm. Thanks. There was no need to use any type of argument to prove me wrong 'cause I know they're wrong.


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## Forlong (May 4, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Kiddo, are you telling me you took this list for a fact? I've pointed out the idiocy that I've seen so far, not my own opinion on the subject. Holy...
> 
> I've truly seen it all now.
> 
> ...


You might want to identify your sarcasm with one of these:
*sarcasm ends*




Even the smartest can make a mistake.  I don't see how there's no debate.  If there is none, why did you bother to post on this thread?


----------



## Kathutet (May 4, 2009)

Forlong said:


> You might want to identify your sarcasm with one of these:
> *sarcasm ends*
> 
> 
> ...


There's no need for me to identify my sarcasm. It's so obvious that even a toddler could have recognized the amounts of bullshit in that particular post. But for your convenience and my amusement, I will do so in the future. I will pick this one: 

That one is rather taunting and amusing to use.

Why? For the lulz.


----------



## Nadini (May 4, 2009)

This is somewhat embarrassing.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> There is no proof that they are like brother and sister, so stop bringing that arguement up.



Nu uh, yes they are, Sakura Hits Naruto all the time and she's always annoyed at him, just like sisters in manga do, Naruto isn't serious about his romantic pursuit, but he does it out of habit, because if he suddenly fell in love with another girl out of the blue, it would look stupid and unrealistic.

And besides, best friends can't cross the line into Romance into shonen, its impossible.
Sakura and Naruto are too close for a romantic relationship, they need someone that they need to learn more about, because best friend romance is really boring and unrealistic.


----------



## ButterflyGod (May 4, 2009)

nadini said:


> This is somewhat embarrassing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would hesitate to use the brother and sister moniker if I were you. Despite the fact I don't think either character is seriously romantically interested in one another (especially Sakura) brothers don't ask sisters out on dates. You'd have a strong case otherwise. 

If you would please indicate to me where it says that best friends cannot become romantic with each other, I would appreciate it. In my opinion, in fiction, regardless of the medium, anything is possible if the author wills it. There are no rules.

No one can be too close for a romantic relationship, it just depends on how each person views the other. I do agree, that best friends romance is boring, however, unrealistic it is not.


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

@Nadini- Sarcasm doesn't work on this thread without constant winking so that even the newbs can understand.


----------



## Nadini (May 4, 2009)

ButterflyGod said:


> I would hesitate to use the brother and sister moniker if I were you. Despite the fact I don't think either character is seriously romantically interested in one another (especially Sakura) brothers don't ask sisters out on dates. You'd have a strong case otherwise.
> 
> If you would please indicate to me where it says that best friends cannot become romantic with each other, I would appreciate it. In my opinion, in fiction, regardless of the medium, anything is possible if the author wills it. There are no rules.
> 
> No one can be too close for a romantic relationship, it just depends on how each person views the other. I do agree, that best friends romance is boring, however, unrealistic it is not.




I told you he asks her on dates because its a force of habit, he isn't interested in Sakura anymore, its plainly obvious, besides, the 'date' requests aren't actual requests for a hope of getting closer romantically to her, he asks her on his so called 'dates' because he wants to talk to his nee-chan, and help her with boy problems.

pfft, i've never seen a manga where best friends became lovers, and i've been reading manga for 5 and half years.
Kishi's gotta stick to cliches, so its obvious the 'Angsty, broody lonely guy + spiky headed heroine' is gonna happen in the end, Naruto isn't that romantically serious in anything, and he's too stupid and dumb for romance, so Kishi will put him with Hinata at the end so it doesn't piss off the fanbase.

of course it is, Naruto and Sakura have absolutely no chemistry, they know eachother _too well_, which is dull and would make the relationship more boring than it already damn is, they have nothing in common and they can't talk like normal human beings without Sakura kicking Naruto into the stratosphere.

goddamn violent barbarian slut... pathetic.




izzyisozaki said:


> @Nadini- Sarcasm doesn't work on this thread without constant winking so that even the newbs can understand.



Excuse me, but who are you to state such baseless comments about me.
I'm always serious, _always_, when discussing pairings.


----------



## mystic868 (May 4, 2009)

nadini said:


> Sakura and Naruto are too close for a romantic relationship, they need someone that they need to learn more about, because best friend romance is really boring and unrealistic.



But do you really think that it's impossible for them being together? Especially now when Naruto finally grown up and Sakura will grow up soon(As Kishi said).


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 4, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> But do you really think that it's impossible for them being together? Especially now when Naruto finally grown up and Sakura will grow up soon(As Kishi said).



It pretty much is impossible. Sakura growing up means for her to acheive her goal that she stated at the beginning of the series (IE catching sasuke) like naruto wanted to become hokage and Sasuke wanted to kill Itachi. And it lines up with him resurrecting his clan, Sakura just happens to fall into the category of love interest for Sasuke, he doesn't dislike her after all.

Naruto is the one who needs to grow hell up. He's the main character yet he childishly holds onto a girl who kicks him three ways to sunday. Hinata has always loved him and everything...so he realizes he only likes Sakura as a sister and hooks up with Hinata instead reciprocating the feelings she wanted him to, and all four of them get happy endings.


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

Sasuke really has a weakness for Sakura.

Of course she'll bear the children he always expected from her.


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## mystic868 (May 4, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> It pretty much is impossible. Sakura growing up means for her to acheive her goal that she stated at the beginning of the series (IE catching sasuke) like naruto wanted to become hokage and Sasuke wanted to kill Itachi. And it lines up with him resurrecting his clan, Sakura just happens to fall into the category of love interest for Sasuke, he doesn't dislike her after all.
> 
> Naruto is the one who needs to grow hell up. He's the main character yet he childishly holds onto a girl who kicks him three ways to sunday. Hinata has always loved him and everything...so he realizes he only likes Sakura as a sister and hooks up with Hinata instead reciprocating the feelings she wanted him to, and all four of them get happy endings.



I don't think Sasuke will end up happily. It's not Shojo so after Kishi killed so many important characters(et. Jiraya, Asuma) he can also kill Sasuke at the end. About Naruto crush on Sakura hmm.. IMO it's still romantical. She was in love in Sasuke when she was young and stupid. Now she is starting to realize that there are more important ppl which will protect her at any cost. About NH - it's still one sided.


----------



## ilovemashedpotatoes (May 4, 2009)

NaruHina was canon after he saw her nekkid in the waterfall


----------



## Forlong (May 4, 2009)

nadini said:


> Nu uh, yes they are, Sakura Hits Naruto all the time and she's always annoyed at him, just like sisters in manga do, Naruto isn't serious about his romantic pursuit, but he does it out of habit, because if he suddenly fell in love with another girl out of the blue, it would look stupid and unrealistic.
> 
> And besides, best friends can't cross the line into Romance into shonen, its impossible.
> Sakura and Naruto are too close for a romantic relationship, they need someone that they need to learn more about, because best friend romance is really boring and unrealistic.


:rofl
There is so much critically wrong with this post.  I'll face each point one by one.
"Sakura hits Naruto all the time and she's always annoyed at him, just like sisters in manga do," _So do the lovers.  And for the LAST TIME, she's hit him like four times over the course of the_ *entire* _manga!_
"Naruto isn't serious about his romantic pursuit," _What would you expect of him?  Maybe he doesn't want to make to complicated plans, because they could be called out of the village at any moment._
"because if he suddenly fell in love with another girl out of the blue, it would look stupid and unrealistic." _Thank you for that anti-NaruHina point._ 
"Sakura and Naruto are too close for a romantic relationship," _That's impossible!  Romance is about closeness, so that's a contradiction._
"because best friend romance is really boring and unrealistic." _Don't even try that shit!  YOU don't even believe that crap._



nadini said:


> I told you he asks her on dates because its a force of habit, he isn't interested in Sakura anymore, its plainly obvious, besides, the 'date' requests aren't actual requests for a hope of getting closer romantically to her, he asks her on his so called 'dates' because he wants to talk to his nee-chan, and help her with boy problems.


Apparently, you missed something.  Naruto calls Sakura "Sakura-_chan_", and he has yet to stop.  Now, for a guy to call a girl older than him "chan" is a sign of effection, romantic interest, and intimacy.  Not something one would use to refer to a sister. 



nadini said:


> pfft, i've never seen a manga where best friends became lovers, and i've been reading manga for 5 and half years.


Missed _Rurouni Kenshin_, did you?



nadini said:


> so Kishi will put him with Hinata at the end so it doesn't piss off the fanbase.


Your ignorance is amusing.  Okay, if Kishi-sensei is effected by the fanbase, it's the one in Japan.  And, well, NaruHina is not popular in Japan.  And what the fans want is irrelevant.  We've read over 8,500 pages of this, we're not going to stop until Kishi-sensei tells us to.



nadini said:


> of course it is, Naruto and Sakura have absolutely no chemistry, they know eachother _too well_, which is dull and would make the relationship more boring than it already damn is, they have nothing in common and they can't talk like normal human beings without Sakura kicking Naruto into the stratosphere.



_NO_ chemistry?  What do you call this?
Also you can never know someone "to well".  That just makes no sense.
And lastly, Sakura has hit Naruto a GRAND TOTAL of four times (_maybe_ five).  That's nowhere near as violent as some manga chicks.

And for el douche:
ZARU!


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 4, 2009)

No, that's all irrelavant. Naruto would love Hinata because he loves her.


----------



## Nadini (May 4, 2009)

> Inuhanyou said:
> 
> 
> > It pretty much is impossible. Sakura growing up means for her to acheive her goal that she stated at the beginning of the series (IE catching sasuke) like naruto wanted to become hokage and Sasuke wanted to kill Itachi. And it lines up with him resurrecting his clan, Sakura just happens to fall into the category of love interest for Sasuke, he doesn't dislike her after all.
> ...



These wise people both speak irrefutable proof.



Forlong said:


> :rofl
> There is so much critically wrong with this post.  I'll face each point one by one.
> "Sakura hits Naruto all the time and she's always annoyed at him, just like sisters in manga do," _So do the lovers.  And for the LAST TIME, she's hit him like four times over the course of the_ *entire* _manga!_
> "Naruto isn't serious about his romantic pursuit," _What would you expect of him?  Maybe he doesn't want to make to complicated plans, because they could be called out of the village at any moment._
> ...



She still hits him, she's constantly annoyed by his presence, not something that's supposed to happen to people that love eachother ,  i can't understand how someone can love someone romantically that constantly belittles and abuses him, its fuckin' disgusting and degrading, Hinata-chan would never do that, she's an angel.

Sakura is serious, Hinata is serious about their romantic pursuit, why can't Naruto be?
He is the main character afterall, face it, he isn't that interested in Sakura anymore.

Guess you missed the other part of the post.

*Scenario:*

Naruto comes back from training trip:

I dun like Sakura anymore, lol, OH HI HINATA!! /wave

^
See what i mean?
Kishi needs to make it subtle, he can't possibly rush such beautiful romance as NaruHina, he's been _slowly_ and gradually developing it over the course of the manga.

No, being close as brother and sister is a bad thing, you know everything about your partner and you can't be surprised anymore, romance is supposed to be explosive, not dull and boring 

It isn't?
Lets say you somehow miraculously develop feelings for your best friend, and she develops feelings for you, what happens?

You go on a date and you kiss and have sex, nothing in your relationship changed, you already know everything about the person, you want to start a relationship with someone because you _want to get to know them better_.



Forlong said:


> Apparently, you missed something.  Naruto calls Sakura "Sakura-_chan_", and he has yet to stop.  Now, for a guy to call a girl older than him "chan" is a sign of effection, romantic interest, and intimacy.  Not something one would use to refer to a sister.



Chan is a affectionate suffix, not only applying for romantic intent.

Wiki:



> In general, chan is used for* babies* and young girls. It* may* also be used towards cute animals, lovers, and v*ery close friends*.



See what i mean?
How you want the suffix to be applied to Sakura is up to you, but its plainly obvious he's not interested in her.




Forlong said:


> Missed _Rurouni Kenshin_, did you?



Kaoru ended up with Kenshin?
So?

Kenshin had a bunch of close friends, and how does one ancient manga make NaruSaku more believable?




Forlong said:


> Your ignorance is amusing.  Okay, if Kishi-sensei is effected by the fanbase, it's the one in Japan.  And, well, NaruHina is not popular in Japan.  And what the fans want is irrelevant.  We've read over 8,500 pages of this, we're not going to stop until Kishi-sensei tells us to.



Oh really?
Why is the most popular western character/pairing getting so much screentime?

And besides SasuSaku is the most popular het pairing in Japan, and its very cute as well, and when SasuSaku happens, NaruHina will undoubtedly happen, Sasuke's happiness is more important than Naruto's.



Forlong said:


> _NO_ chemistry?  What do you call this?
> Also you can never know someone "to well".  That just makes no sense.
> And lastly, Sakura has hit Naruto a GRAND TOTAL of four times (_maybe_ five).  That's nowhere near as violent as some manga chicks.



Rejection?
"I was thinking of us going on a date" as i said, habit, he was thinking about sasuke before that, not sakura. he was trying to change the topic.

And of course, Sakura rejected him, like she always does.




Forlong said:


> And for el douche:
> ZARU!



?


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 4, 2009)

I think that Naruhina will be canon, because she is cute.


----------



## Forlong (May 4, 2009)

nadini said:


> She still hits him, she's constantly annoyed by his presence,


Okay, I want links to the times she's annoyed by Naruto.  As I recall, she only gets annoyed at him about eight times.  You know, out of like eighty interactions.


nadini said:


> not something that's supposed to happen to people that love eachother , i can't understand how someone can love someone romantically that constantly belittles and abuses him, its fuckin' disgusting and degrading,


Did I miss the rule that you were never to say anything negative about someone you love.  She wants Naruto to do better.  That makes Sakura a total bitch!?


nadini said:


> Hinata-chan would never do that, she's an angel.


Don't EVER say that again!  When Naruto needed a friend the most, Hinata didn't do jack crap.  Sakura was there for him _long_ before Hinata, and she screamed it as loud as she could.  So...who's the better person? 



nadini said:


> Sakura is serious, Hinata is serious about their romantic pursuit, why can't Naruto be?
> He is the main character afterall, face it, he isn't that interested in Sakura anymore.


He gives Sakura warm looks, smiles whenever he sees her, does everything he can to keep her from worrying, and compliments her frequently.  Sounds like he still has feelings for her.



nadini said:


> See what i mean?
> Kishi needs to make it subtle, he can't possibly rush such beautiful romance as NaruHina, he's been _slowly_ and gradually developing it over the course of the manga.


NaruSaku has had _far_ more developement than NaruHina.  Don't give me any "well she's a main character" crap.  If Kishi-sensei meant for NaruHina to happen, it wouldn't be to hard to make Hinata a frickin' main character.



nadini said:


> No, being close as brother and sister is a bad thing, you know everything about your partner and you can't be surprised anymore, romance is supposed to be explosive, not dull and boring


But they are not like brother and sister.  You have no proof of that.  Let me ask you something: Have you ever found a conversation bewteen Naruto and Sakura borring?  If the answer is "yes", how can you have grounds that the pairing is borring?



nadini said:


> It isn't?
> Lets say you somehow miraculously develop feelings for your best friend, and she develops feelings for you, what happens?
> 
> You go on a date and you kiss and have sex, nothing in your relationship changed, you already know everything about the person, you want to start a relationship with someone because you _want to get to know them better_.


Maybe to you sex is nothing.  But to some people it is a meaningful act.  I'd say that would count as a change in a relationship.  The best marrages are between friends.  So your whole "Naruto and Sakura are to close" arguement is not only pointless, but dense.



nadini said:


> Chan is a affectionate suffix, not only applying for romantic intent.
> 
> See what i mean?
> How you want the suffix to be applied to Sakura is up to you, but its plainly obvious he's not interested in her.


I've read a lot of manga.  And very rarely to guys even refer to their love interests with "chan", so I would have to say that strongly supports NaruSaku.



nadini said:


> Kaoru ended up with Kenshin?
> So?
> 
> Kenshin had a bunch of close friends, and how does one ancient manga make NaruSaku more believable?


Your statement was that best friends never end up together in Japanese manga.  I prooved you wrong.  There's also "Speed Racer" and "Final Fantasy 7" might quallify.



nadini said:


> Why is the most popular western character/pairing getting so much screentime?


 Not again!
How 'bout you actually _watch_ the anime?
The Fuuma Clan arc: Episodes 136-141 (HUGE NaruSaku)
Find the Bikouchuu arc: Episodes 148-151 (NaruHina)
Episodes 175 & 176 (slight NaruHina)
Vegetable Country arc: Episodes 187-191 (NaruHina)
Gennou the Trap Maker arc: Episodes 197-201 (NaruSaku, anti-NaruHina)
Yakimo's Genjutsu arc: Episodes 203-207 (maybe NaruSaku)
Menma arc: Episodes 213-215 (NaruSaku)
NaruSaku has gotten about the same attention as NaruHina.  Probably more.



nadini said:


> Rejection?
> "I was thinking of us going on a date" as i said, habit, he was thinking about sasuke before that, not sakura. he was trying to change the topic.


I was talking about the conversation.  Looks like chemestry to me.  Can you find examples of chemestry between Naruto and Hinata?  Of course not!  Because they DON'T TALK TO EACH OTHER!  There's a spanner in the works.


----------



## CharLots (May 4, 2009)

Forlong said:


> When Naruto needed a friend the most, Hinata didn't do jack crap.  Sakura was there for him _long_ before Hinata, and she screamed it as loud as she could.  So...who's the better person?



I don't think this can be adressed in terms of who's the "better" person. Kishi developped both Sakura and Hinata as extremely positive characters who have strong, sincere feelings for Naruto, although (in my opinion) very different. Let's not forget that Hinata cared for Naruto and admired him long before Sakura and Sasuke did, since they basically thought he was annoying and useless in the very beginning of the manga.   

Seeing Hinata as some sort of foil for Sakura is skewed. In Part 1, Ino served as Sakura's rival, and in Part 2, it's pretty clear that Kishi is setting up Karin for that role (see the panel where they cross each other in the street without recognising each other - oh, the tremendous irony!) Furthermore, there are many ressemblances between Karin and Ino as far as Sasuke goes: both of them are more obnoxious and irritating in their pursuit of him than Sakura is. Karin also has the advantage of being on the "bad" side, making a confrontation with Sakura coherent with the main plot of Konoha vs. Akatsuki and Co. Why then would Kishi choose to set up shy, quiet Hinata, one of the rookie 9 fighting for Konoha, as Sakura's rival?



Forlong said:


> NaruSaku has had _far_ more developement than NaruHina.  Don't give me any "well she's a main character" crap.  If Kishi-sensei meant for NaruHina to happen, it wouldn't be to hard to make Hinata a frickin' main character.



The love interest doesn't have to be one of the three main characters, especially when romance is a subplot (see Potter, Harry). It's sufficient to give her enough page time for the reader to recognize her abilities and qualities, and associate her with romantic feelings. I'd say this is definitely the case for Hinata. Unsubtly so, perhaps, but this is a shonen after all, and pairings don't have that much page time alloted to them anyway. With regards to the main readership of the series, they have to be pretty straightforward. 

Also, another interesting question to ask is the purpose Hinata would serve if she didn't end up being the love interest. What's Kishi's authorial intent in making Hinata desperately in love with Naruto, if not to use this in the plot? And if it was only to have Sakura realise her feelings for Naruto, prompted by Hinata's confession, wouldn't it be a tad tedious? There would have been a million ways to do it without taking the time and effort to develop Hinata's character from the very beginning. 

It's said that Kishi meant for Hinata to be Naruto's love interest in the first drafts, making her a regular member of a noble family, and then choosing to make her a shinobi. I don't see any sign in manga that he somehow changed his mind, especially in the latest chapters.


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 4, 2009)

I think Forlong makes a good point, because he has logic. But Naruhina has logic too, because they love eachother.


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 4, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> Since we both seem to be on the same team here, I'm going to correct you here:
> 
> That scene did not prove anything about how Naruto feels about Hinata.
> Yes, he remembered Hinata, because her supposed death was the last thing he saw before he went Kyuubi. And once he remembered her, he remembered the whole village. Naruto knew he went Kyuubi and he began to worry/panic that he may have killed/hurt the villagers and destroyed the village.
> ...



I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but here's how myself and other people see it:
This is the cliff

After returning back to normal from Fox mode, he wonders why he is so far away from the village. Katsuyu tells him that he did that in fox mode. After hearing that, worry floods him as he finally remembers Hinata. He grips his heart fearing the worst, and asks Katsuyu if he had destroyed Hinata and the rest of the villagers. Worried about Hinata's safety primarily, he seeks out her life force, and eventually finds it. He grips his heart even tighter,knowing that Hinata is alright. Naruto's question regarding the villagers' safety is shortly answered by Katsuyu, saying that the villagers were all unharmed. Relieved, he replies "Thank God" twice, one directed at Hinata's safety and the other directed at the villagers' safety. He tears up in relief, knowing that everyone is alright. This is closely followed by Hinata worrying about Naruto's safety over her own.


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 4, 2009)

um timeout here people, balrog i dont know what your trying to pull but its not very smart imean hinata has loved naruto before anyone else ever knew his name before even iruka haku said that the person who aknolwedges you the most becomes your most important person hinata is narutos most important person because she loves him before anyone and aknowledgement before anybody elsde shes gonna be more important than narutos current bonds they dont understand him like hinata does because she saw past his outside before anybody into the sad boy he was who wanted to be aknowledged now tht he knows hinata aknowledges him he will love her he does not like sakura that way its already been proven, when he gave up his crush in part 1 afterhe saw her hug sasuke he knows he cant possibly compete i dont understand why your trying to be so argument its been obvious since chapter 1...


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Um timeout here people, balrog i dont know what your trying to pull but its not very smart imean hinata has loved naruto before anyone else ever knew his name before even iruka haku said that the person who aknolwedges you the most becomes your most important person hinata is narutos most important person because she loves him before anyone and aknowledgement before anybody elsde shes gonna be more important than narutos current bonds they dont understand him like hinata does because she saw past his outside before anybody into the sad boy he was who wanted to be aknowledged now tht he knows hinata aknowledges him he will love her he does not like sakura that way its already been prooven when he gave up his crush in part 1 afterhe saw her hug sasuke he knows he cant possibly compete i dont understand why your trying to be so argument its been obvious since chapter 1



Holy shit 



CharLots said:


> Let's not forget that Hinata cared for Naruto and admired him long before Sakura and Sasuke did, since they basically thought he was annoying and useless in the very beginning of the manga.



Lolwut? Admiration...who did what first, who gives a care. Naruto has been fapping to his admiration of Sasuke since he was a kid, but yeah, that's not amazing or anything 
Sasuke has realized the reason behind Naruto's behavior before anyone, but yeah, nothing special 

Sasuke has been referred to specifically as Naruto's important person, the one who recognized his worth the most, and a bond he valued cos it what it took to make, but yeah, his opinion or preferences don't matter, he obviously likes it easy and undeveloped


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 4, 2009)

I think Naruto will will confess because she is very cut e anf desreved love. Whats a NaruHina? I thought it was NarHin.


----------



## Nadini (May 4, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> um timeout here people, balrog i dont know what your trying to pull but its not very smart imean hinata has loved naruto before anyone else ever knew his name before even iruka haku said that the person who aknolwedges you the most becomes your most important person hinata is narutos most important person because she loves him before anyone and aknowledgement before anybody elsde shes gonna be more important than narutos current bonds they dont understand him like hinata does because she saw past his outside before anybody into the sad boy he was who wanted to be aknowledged now tht he knows hinata aknowledges him he will love her he does not like sakura that way its already been proven, when he gave up his crush in part 1 afterhe saw her hug sasuke he knows he cant possibly compete i dont understand why your trying to be so argument its been obvious since chapter 1...



rep'd my good sir, you speak convincing truth


----------



## CharLots (May 4, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Holy shit
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not going to disagree with you here. I think that Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is the most important one in the entire story, that much has been made clear from the beginning. Given the type of manga that this is, the ultimate resolution of the plot will be the one involving Naruto and Sasuke's reconciliation. 

But that's exactly why I don't think their bond is romantic in any way. Romance is taking a backseat in this story centered around emulation in battle and brotherhood. So Naruto and Sasuke's relationship, because it's prominent, will not take that direction.


----------



## The Duchess (May 4, 2009)

CharLots said:


> The love interest doesn't have to be one of the three main characters, especially when romance is a subplot (see Potter, Harry). It's sufficient to give her enough page time for the reader to recognize her abilities and qualities, and associate her with romantic feelings. I'd say this is definitely the case for Hinata. Unsubtly so, perhaps, but this is a shonen after all, and *pairings don't have that much page time alloted to them anyway. With regards to the main readership of the series, they have to be pretty straightforward.*


And that's why NaruSaku's more likely to happen. There's been too many moments focused on the ambiguity on Sakura's feelings (platonic or not) for Naruto to just call it frienship or sisterhood anymore. We already know Naruto still has feelings for Sakura (whether you say they're "serious" or not, they're still there). Pretty straightforward for what pairing's going to become endgame.

For NaruHina, we'd need pages and pages of Naruto developing feelings for Hinata while somehow dropping his feelings for Sakura. Then another several few pages of him working up the nerve to ask out Hinata or profess his new love, whatever.

This is a _shonen_, do you really think the last option's realistic?



CharLots said:


> Also, another interesting question to ask is the purpose Hinata would serve if she didn't end up being the love interest. What's Kishi's authorial intent in making Hinata desperately in love with Naruto, if not to use this in the plot? And if it was only to have Sakura realise her feelings for Naruto, prompted by Hinata's confession, wouldn't it be a tad tedious? There would have been a million ways to do it without taking the time and effort to develop Hinata's character from the very beginning.


Hinata wasn't created soley to become Naruto's girlfriend. If I remember correctly, she was created as a minor character with a few moments of spotlight with her trying to become more like Naruto himself: brave and not wanting to give up.

I think she was made to fall in love with Naruto to create growth for Naruto. How he'll let her down in a mature way.

Maybe it was also for Hinata's well-needed growth as well. Her confession showed that she pretty much has her whole life revolve around Naruto. She clearly needs to snap out of that, because look where it got her: almost killed.

As for Sakura realizing her feelings for Naruto after the confession, I don't buy that. I think she already knows she has feelings for him, but the confession could motivate her to actually do something. Or maybe the opposite, fake a smile and be happy for Naruto, even though she's fallen for him. That would show the growth Kishi's promised for Sakura.



CharLots said:


> *It's said that Kishi meant for Hinata to be Naruto's love interest in the first drafts,* making her a regular member of a noble family, and then choosing to make her a shinobi. I don't see any sign in manga that he somehow changed his mind, especially in the latest chapters.


Wait, _what_? Proof, please.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

Naruto and Sasuke's relationship being this or that WAS NOT the point . I simply was taking credit away from something that doesn't have anything substantial over others with the 'first' arguement. It's about who does it better. Sakura came to admire Naruto being around him with development despite of her fangirlhood for Sasuke. There is nothing to boast.


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 4, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> Wait, _what_? Proof, please.



 Does someone really have to explain it so that you understand obviously that conceptualized sketch of Hinata with Naruto in the backround means that Hinata was his love intrest because hinata is almost the same as him, it could be nothing else besides that after all, he put him there for a reason nobody else got an entire scan with naruto in the rought drafts that we know of, this means without a doubt that Naruto and Hinata will be together just you wait


----------



## CharLots (May 4, 2009)

EarthBenderGal said:


> Wait, _what_? Proof, please.



I'll post the link here as soon as I'm able to find it again.

As for Hinata's admiration of Naruto, I thought my post made it clear that I wasn't trying to prove she did anything "better" than Sakura or Sasuke. I was just answering to the statement made above that Sakura was a "better" person because she had cared for Naruto longer than Hinata had. 

It's a bit discouraging the way every argument in this thread is taken from a defensive angle regarding this character or that one in opposition to another. I have absolutely no preference between Hinata, Sakura and Sasuke. They are all great characters bringing something important to the main protagonist. Debating which pairing is going to be canon is another matter entirely.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

I'm afraid Inu is the best NaruHina debater I've ever come across; I can't even attempt countering such irrefutable arguements :amazed


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 4, 2009)

Illustration by Masashi Kishimoto


----------



## Milkshake (May 4, 2009)

One question; what's the point of this thread?

Seriously talking; do people actually believe that if Sakura wanted Naruto, he wouldn't comply because of Hinata? You can argue all you want, but if somehow Sakura does confess romantic feelings towards Naruto, it is very likely that he'll consider it. Do you seriously believe Naruto will grow feelings for a girl he didn't know liked him until recently? Are you sure that he'd throw all those years of trying to impress and ask out Sakura just for one girl who acknowledged him, when he has tons of other people who've actually went up and acknowledged him through those years. Hinata might've been the first to see that he wasn't a bad person, but it's just not justified imo, when she didn't stand up for him ONLY FOR THE REASON OF HER TIMID AND SHY NATURE. 

All pairings are ambigious, except SasuSaku because imo, Sasuke never wanted romantic acknowledgement from Sakura and most likely still doesn't, however their is no clear love interest on Sakura's side so it's common to suggest she might love Naruto romantically- I don't see how that's ridiculous when the hints were there. Their fictional, and they all have their chances but only one will win.


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 4, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Illustration by Masashi Kishimoto



See guys she even has a swirl necklace on if u magnify the resolution  u can see the swirl on it, and there are swirls in the clouds Hinata and Naruto weremeant to be.

Oh ya if u dont belive me itll be canon cuz naruto and hinata went on a DATE in sum thin i wantched and it was the same clothes she had on in this pic its her THEME to get Naruto naruto cant resist for long she loved him before anybody see i told you.


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Illistration by Masashi Kishimoto





izzyisozaki said:


> in the Databook (Italian *copyrighted* translation, so it's _extremely_ reliable imo) Kishimoto clearly states that he drew the picture only for fun and to show an assistant how to draw Hinata and use it as a base. LoL. Seriously can't believe tards use it as evidence anyway.
> 
> And that's where the NaruHina legend of this picture comes to an end




Enjoy. **

*needs to reload pic


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## Farih (May 4, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Illustration by Masashi Kishimoto



Look, notice the shadows all along Hinata's body.  Then see the jewelry reflecting very vividly in the sunlight?  The incredibly obvious contrast in color demonstrates the two sides of Hinata:  the sweet, shy girl and the kunoichi who always struggles to get her footing.  Kishi was foreshadowing that much of Hinata's personality there.  Is it a stretch to say that Naruto being in the background indicates NaruHina?

I think not


----------



## Megumi (May 4, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> @Kitsune Naruto
> 
> Dude, I'm a NaruHina myself, but are you TRYING to make people mad?  You've got so many unwarranted assumptions in there I can't even keep track of them.



It's an obvious joke. That lulzy Fucker is into Yaoi. 

@Kitsune Naruto, you're god.


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

Fetus said:


> It's an obvious joke. That lulzy Fucker is into Yaoi.
> 
> @Kitsune Naruto, you're god.



More specifically a pairing called SasuNaru, kthx 

Everyone has to face that Kishi was going to pull NaruHina out of his ass all along


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 4, 2009)

That picture of hinata is very cute.


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## 王志鍵 (May 4, 2009)

farihstar said:


> Look, notice the shadows all along Hinata's body.  Then see the jewelry reflecting very vividly in the sunlight?  The incredibly obvious contrast in color demonstrates the two sides of Hinata:  the sweet, shy girl and the kunoichi who always struggles to get her footing.  Kishi was foreshadowing that much of Hinata's personality there.  Is it a stretch to say that Naruto being in the background indicates NaruHina?
> 
> I think not


Regarding the sketch,


Hyuuga="towards the sun"

As Hinata moves "towards the sun", she meets Naruto on the way since he's near the sun.




*nice observation eh?


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

I wonder who Naruto follows...


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## Temp_Position (May 4, 2009)

believeit6 said:


> That picture of hinata is very cute.



I agree. Its a very cute picture. 

I honestly think no one is getting paired with anyone. But, if any pairing will happen, Naruhina and Sasusaku have a high chance. Not for any reason except that the girls get their wish and its a pairing that most people who like the whole cliche (tell me why its not cliche) pairing thing will agree on. 

Its obvious Hinata loves Naruto and Sakura loves Sasuke. At the moment. 
(Its obvious Lee loves Sakura, but who cares about him, he's a guy he can get over her).

Its less apparent what Naruto feels for Sakura (friend, girlfriend, important person, whatever) and its even less apparent what Sasuke feels for Anybody. Maybe its because they're both goal/career oriented and guys who dont sit around talking about girls they like, so its hard to assume who they like or who they could potentially like. But for this reason, its unfair to assume what they feel. They never spoke about either girl and if they did, its very sparse and unromantic. 

But, since this is manga and fantasy. Its not fair for the girls to not end up with the guys of their dreams, right? If they cant have them, than who will?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 4, 2009)

farihstar said:


> Look, notice the shadows all along Hinata's body.  Then see the jewelry reflecting very vividly in the sunlight?  The incredibly obvious contrast in color demonstrates the two sides of Hinata:  the sweet, shy girl and the kunoichi who always struggles to get her footing.  Kishi was foreshadowing that much of Hinata's personality there.  Is it a stretch to say that Naruto being in the background indicates NaruHina?
> 
> I think not



Give a better reason why Kishimoto decided to include Naruto in a sketch in where the fundaments of Hinata?s character should only have been displayed and not a possible romance instead.

What you said has relevance. But explain why Kishi had to add the _main character _ to the initial design of a secondary character.


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## Temp_Position (May 4, 2009)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Give a better reason why Kishimoto decided to include Naruto in a sketch in where the fundaments of Hinata´s character should only have been displayed and not a possible romance instead.
> 
> What you said has relevance. But explain why Kishi had to add the _main character _ to the initial design of a secondary character.



I can think of a few. For instance, kishi added Naruto in the background because naruto represents the person Hinata likes and is inspired by. Its like a mind trick he uses so that everytime someone thinks of Hinata, they automatically associate her thinking about Naruto. It shows how much of an inspiration Naruto is to her. Naruto is oblivious of course and his back is turned from her. Interpret that as you may. 

He also added Naruto in the background because he likes adding Naruto in his sketches. Its like his signature or something.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 4, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> I can think of a few. For instance, kishi added Naruto in the background because naruto represents the person Hinata likes and is inspired by. Its like a mind trick he uses so that everytime someone thinks of Hinata, they automatically associate her thinking about Naruto. He's all the way in the background because she was stalking him from a distance and someone decided to take her photo. Naruto is oblivious of course and his back is turned from her.
> 
> He also added Naruto in the background because he likes adding Naruto in his sketches. Its like his signature or something.



Good points. The only problem is that by doing that the romantic context is available. Feeling inspired and liking Naruto is already something that apports to NaruHina.

And Hinata didn?t stalk. That was only the anime.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 4, 2009)

Holy shit.

Even here?


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## 王志鍵 (May 4, 2009)

It sucks we have to see all _that_ before we can report a guy....


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

What's seen on the debate thread cannot be unseen  /stolen reference


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 4, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> It sucks we have to see all _that_ before we can report a guy....



I don?t understand these recent storm of porn-pics lately.

Tch, this guy will be gone in no time.


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## Temp_Position (May 4, 2009)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Good points. The only problem is that by doing that the romantic context is available. Feeling inspired and liking Naruto is already something that apports to NaruHina.
> 
> And Hinata didn?t stalk. That was only the anime.



I agree. Its pairing material.Its also an example of her character. The quiet and anxious love struck girl. Her entire personality revolves around her liking and being inspired by Naruto. Its really sweet. If only Naruto would notice her.  

 Maybe she didnt stalk, but she did follow and watch him, like when he's training. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



ch 437 flashback


. Its still looks onesided since we have no idea how Naruto feels about her. I would feel sorry for Hinata if Naruto doesnt feel the same. But, Naruto is a nice guy, he might not refuse a date. Who knows if something will develop between the two.


----------



## Forlong (May 4, 2009)

CharLots said:


> I don't think this can be adressed in terms of who's the "better" person. Kishi developped both Sakura and Hinata as extremely positive characters who have strong, sincere feelings for Naruto, although (in my opinion) very different. Let's not forget that Hinata cared for Naruto and admired him long before Sakura and Sasuke did, since they basically thought he was annoying and useless in the very beginning of the manga.


Okay, maybe I made that out a bit harsh.  I just don't get how Sakura is a horid bitch for begin mean to Naruto before he erned her respect, and yet Hinata does nothing for him for years and she's the Virgin Mary.



CharLots said:


> Also, another interesting question to ask is the purpose Hinata would serve if she didn't end up being the love interest. What's Kishi's authorial intent in making Hinata desperately in love with Naruto, if not to use this in the plot? And if it was only to have Sakura realise her feelings for Naruto, prompted by Hinata's confession, wouldn't it be a tad tedious? There would have been a million ways to do it without taking the time and effort to develop Hinata's character from the very beginning.


A good question, and I thnk I have an answer.  Hinata's purpose could be to at as a female character that, like Naruto, has had to ern respect and admiration of the village.  Like Naruto, she may have to deal with the fact that the one she loves doesn't love her back.  Those of you who have a problem with that should just grow up.



nadini said:


> @forlong
> Eh naruhina is cannon and your a jelous hater and your evil nd we hate you
> 
> stupiad narusaku fan


So now you just resort to insults?  NaruHina is NOT cannon.  Naruto has made no confession or commitment to Hinata, he has already given Sakura that.  Could NaruHina happen?  Possibly.  But don't act like life has no meaning unless it does.



Inuhanyou said:


> Does someone really have to explain it so that you understand obviously that conceptualized sketch of Hinata with Naruto in the backround means that Hinata was his love intrest because hinata is almost the same as him, it could be nothing else besides that after all, he put him there for a reason nobody else got an entire scan with naruto in the rought drafts that we know of, this means without a doubt that Naruto and Hinata will be together just you wait


One original drawing of Hinata negates all of Naruto and Sakura's character developement?  It's and old DRAWING!



Temp_Position said:


> I honestly think no one is getting paired with anyone. But, if any pairing will happen, Naruhina and Sasusaku have a high chance. Not for any reason except that the girls get their wish and its a pairing that most people who like the whole cliche (tell me why its not cliche) pairing thing will agree on.
> 
> Its obvious Hinata loves Naruto and Sakura loves Sasuke. At the moment.
> (Its obvious Lee loves Sakura, but who cares about him, he's a guy he can get over her).
> ...



It is 100% clear how Naruto feels about Sakura.  He was willing to die to protect her.  He spend all his chakra and then some to save her life.  Sounds like he loves her.

ZARU!


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 4, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> I agree. Its pairing material.Its also an example of her character. The quiet and anxious love struck girl. Her entire personality revolves around her liking and being inspired by Naruto. Its really sweet. If only Naruto would notice her.
> 
> Maybe she didnt stalk, but she did follow and watch him, like when he's training.
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Well, that is. She watched him and learned from him valuable things to find the strenght inside of her. And when Naruto felt down, she reminded him of his greatest cuality.

As a NaruHina fan and supporter, I don?t see nothing bad in Naruto giving Hinata and himself a chance to try out something new and see what can come off of it. That to me will be when it is showed if NaruHina does becomes canon or not.

It was nice talking to you. Till later.


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

> Hinata does nothing for him for years and she's the Virgin Mary.



Sad but true 

Wait, she said he was a proud failure that time he bumped into her 

The problem with NaruHina is the "deserved chance" thing.
Why is it not more about "Why they work together"? Maybe since there's little evidence on why they do. So she admires him and that gives him some boost.
He still isn't intrigued in a special way like with Sakura. Attraction is kind of important for romance ...


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## Temp_Position (May 4, 2009)

Forlong said:


> It is 100% clear how Naruto feels about Sakura.  He was willing to die to protect her.  He spend all his chakra and then some to save her life.  Sounds like he loves her.ZARU!



He would do the same for the people he think is important. Like his teammates and commrades. If your talking about the Gaara fight, it was more about protecting his precious commrades, sakura and sasuke. As influenced by Sasuke.

I agree that Naruto said in pt.1 that he has a crush on her. He keeps asking her out on dates and he even said that she is the girl he sort of likes. unlike the problem with NaruHina, we know that Sakura doesnt see him in a romantic light. She could like him in time (like how Naruto could like Hinata if he gave her a chance), but than what about her feelings for Sasuke? Who would be paired up with Sasuke.  All that pining for nothing and she ends up with the guy she finds most annoying. And if Naruto ends up with Sakura, what happens to Hinata?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 4, 2009)

"Why they work together"?

I´ll tell you why they work together.

Naruto will never have to *prove* or impress her as he had to do it with Sakura and everyone he met. He will be just himself, with someone who loves him for values and flaws.

Hinata will be happy to finally be there for him after banquishing her bashful self. And giving your loved one "some boost" is important. When has Sakura give him that?

You know, is not that much "deserved" as it looks. I will have no problem if Naruto does not decide to spent sometime with Hinata to see if something happens. If that is what he wants, so be it.

But thinking that he is just going to let it go like that and wait till Sakura has a last moment realization of her "feelings" for him when there already is someone who feels romantically _attracted_ to him, its to farfetched, if not, stupid from him. He is not that fool.

But it looks like even the possibility of it happening is forbidden.


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## Mogami Kyoko (May 4, 2009)

I know I'm takin' a break from the debate thread and all, but I felt like I needed to hop in a say something about that picture. 

If I remember correctly, that was just a character sketch of Hinata. Possibly the first one Kishi did of her.
And originally, Hinata was going to be a villager, not a ninja.
Why is Naruto in there? Who knows? Kishi can draw whatever the heck he wants. Doesn't mean every picture he draws of Hinata is foreshadowing. 
And if Hinata and Naruto tend to be in the same picture, it still does not foreshadow NaruHina. 
This picture is years old. 
And no, Hinata wasn't made to be Naruto's love interest when Kishi drew the picture.
Kishi's editor said that Naruto needed a love interest, and that's where Sakura came in. That was one of the reasons why Kishi created Sakura. 


K' I'm done.


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## Afalstein (May 4, 2009)

Forlong said:


> One original drawing of Hinata negates all of Naruto and Sakura's character developement?  It's and old DRAWING!



Gotta say I agree with Forlong on this one.  A concept sketch doesn't mean an awful lot.  Granted, it's a cool picture, but it's hardly anything worth noting.



> It is 100% clear how Naruto feels about Sakura. He was willing to die to protect her. He spend all his chakra and then some to save her life. Sounds like he loves her.



True, but he did so only after Sasuke was going to run in and sacrifice himself.  That might have been just because he was scared stiff of Gaara, but Naruto didn't really kick it in until Sasuke spoke up.  I'm not saying he was going to leave her there, and he did end up risking his life as things went on, but it seemed a little strange for a complete "love vow."



> The problem with NaruHina is the "deserved chance" thing.
> Why is it not more about "Why they work together"? Maybe since there's little evidence on why they do. So she admires him and that gives him some boost.
> He still isn't intrigued in a special way like with Sakura. Attraction is kind of important for romance ...



Naruto has said once, I think, that he understood what he liked about Sakura, but he's never really elaborated on it.  Most of the time it just seems like further progression of the triangle from Part I.  So I'm not sure where you get the "intrigued in a special way" argument.  And no, he hasn't been intrigued with Hinata up to this point, but that's because he hasn't paid any attention to her.  Until recently (if at all), Sakura hasn't been intrigued with Naruto either.

Char_Lots, if you could find that link where Kishi said that, it would be amazing.  I'm a trifle dubious... it just seems a little too easy.  Like more people would have picked up on it.  But if he did say that, it would be pretty cool.


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## Farih (May 4, 2009)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Give a better reason why Kishimoto decided to include Naruto in a sketch in where the fundaments of Hinata?s character should only have been displayed and not a possible romance instead.
> 
> What you said has relevance. But explain why Kishi had to add the _main character _ to the initial design of a secondary character.



Isn't it obvious?  A major part of Hinata's character revolves around Naruto.  Her theme of getting stronger, where the shadows of that picture mix with the light, have everything to do with Naruto.  He's the reason she gets stronger, why she works so hard.  Seeing him gives her strength.  Her character _is_ Naruto. 

Therefore, I don't care if she's a secondary character.  It's painfully striking once you think about it.


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## izzyisozaki (May 4, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Naruto has said once, I think, that he understood what he liked about Sakura, but he's never really elaborated on it.  Most of the time it just seems like further progression of the triangle from Part I.  So I'm not sure where you get the "intrigued in a special way" argument.  And no, he hasn't been intrigued with Hinata up to this point, but that's because he hasn't paid any attention to her.  Until recently (if at all), Sakura hasn't been intrigued with Naruto either.



ur kidding rite

The reasons he likes Sakura are implied, let alone he makes it clear to admire her for just who she is [not that I personally think anything amazing about it ]

As for Sakura not being intrigued by Naruto...what have you been reading ? She has shown so many instances of her growing amazement towards Naruto it's embarrassing.

@SoH- Someone like Naruto openly admits he had to work his ass off to receive acknowledgment. Hinata is no different in this though she's head over heels for him. He still had to work. I still fail to see how Hinata's recognition of Naruto's worth is SO special at this point, esp when she could hardly fill the loneliness he had the entire time. Something that neither progressed naturally [not even over time!] or took forth a significant dynamic on its own isn't on the same level to me.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (May 4, 2009)

After Naruto returns from his talk with Nagato, who do you think would be more willing to hug Naruto right on the spot - Hinata or Sakura. Or better question, which of the two has it in them to do so


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## Temp_Position (May 4, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ur kidding rite
> 
> The reasons he likes Sakura are implied, let alone he makes it clear to admire her for just who she is [not that I personally think anything amazing about it ]
> 
> As for Sakura not being intrigued by Naruto...what have you been reading ? She has shown so many instances of her growing amazement towards Naruto it's embarrassing.



I agree that although he said he likes sakura, he doesnt have much reason for liking her, except for the reason that he admires her for wanting Sasuke to acknowledge her.

lol, her being amazed at Naruto until its embarassing sounds like she is competing with him or is embarrased that she used to think so low of him.


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## Afalstein (May 4, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> ur kidding rite
> 
> The reasons he likes Sakura are implied, let alone he makes it clear to admire her for just who she is [not that I personally think anything amazing about it ]
> 
> As for Sakura not being intrigued by Naruto...what have you been reading ? She has shown so many instances of her growing amazement towards Naruto it's embarrassing.




Hm.  This is why I shouldn't get into evidence debate.  I'm not actually very familiar with the manga.

I just know that in the past, that when I've asked for evidence whether Naruto actually has any reason to like Sakura beyond her being pretty, I've been given a reference from Part I where he states that he finally understands what he likes about her. But I don't think he ever said what it was.

 I'm aware that since then he's been impressed by her abilities as a med nin and her strength levels.  But I don't really consider him to be "Intrigued" so much.  "Intrigued" implies a desire to learn more about a somewhat mysterious subject.  That in turn implies that not much is known about the subject (or at least a side of the subject that has not been seen before). 

Naruto knows too much about Sakura to really be "intrigued."  Vice-versa also.  Sakura is impressed by Naruto's growth--maybe intrigued too, because she never paid much attention to him before.  This is kinda the "brother-sister" argument, I suppose.  It seems like love demands a certain mystique about the other person (at least initially), which Sakura and Naruto don't really have.

Now, of course, this is my own opinion, and you can argue about the niceties between the two words and whether it is one more than the other.  But I'm explaining why I said that.


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## Temp_Position (May 5, 2009)

*for Afalstein* here is the link to the page where Naruto implies why he likes Sakura. What do you think of his reason?relatively unscathed


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## Afalstein (May 5, 2009)

Oh thanks.  I'd always wondered about that.

Hm  So he likes her because she struggles for acknowledgement from Sasuke?  That makes sense, it sorta puts them in the same boat.  Especially because she says she's willing to do anything for it.  

And that's Naruto thinking?  But... oh.  Oh I see.  Okay.  Seems like that would have some major repercussions once she found out.  Doggone Kishi and his comic romance scenes.

Still.  It puts their relationship more or less in terms of the team.  It's not really a shared frame of mind, since this seems to be more Sakura just with Sasuke.  It's not like Sakura struggles to be acknowledged by everyone, she just wants Sasuke to.  So that seems to be the only thing that she would "do anything for."  So essentially, he likes her because of her devotion to Sasuke.


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## Temp_Position (May 5, 2009)

^hehe, keep reading. She does find out eventually.

I find it weird that the reason Naruto likes Sakura is because she likes another guy. It almost seems like he is a girl stealer. He likes girls that like other guys. Or,maybe he likes the challenge and the chase of getting something he cant get? I dont know....


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## izzyisozaki (May 5, 2009)

Had this stuff been part of SasuSaku's development it would have been sooooooooo romantic <3

*Spoiler*: __ 






 Link removed
Link removed
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Link removed
Still hate it though.


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## Kathutet (May 5, 2009)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> "Why they work together"?
> 
> I?ll tell you why they work together.
> 
> Naruto will never have to *prove* or impress her as he had to do it with Sakura and everyone he met. He will be just himself, with someone who loves him for values and flaws.


Actually, Naruto's character has revolved around proving himself and impressing others since CH1 until now. Just in different degrees.

This manga is about acknowledgment and Hinata is no exception.
Naruto will acknowledge Hinata's existence and will not ignore her like before. That, is my opinion.


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## Fay (May 5, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Actually, Naruto's character has revolved around proving himself and impressing others since CH1 until now. Just in different degrees.
> 
> This manga is about acknowledgment and Hinata is no exception.
> *Naruto will acknowledge Hinata's existence and will not ignore her like before*. That, is my opinion.


Naruto's character revolves around getting acknowledged (the whole reason he wants to become hokage) by others.

He already acknowledged her 'existence' [chuunin arc: Neji fight, chapter 98]..and he hasn't ignored her since her fight with Neji. He never ignored her actually, just he didn't notice her up untill her fight with Neji.


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## Kathutet (May 5, 2009)

Fay said:


> Naruto's character revolves around getting *acknowledged* (the whole reason he wants to become hokage) by others.
> 
> He already acknowledged her 'existence' [chuunin arc: Neji fight, chapter 98]..and he hasn't ignored her since her fight with Neji. He never ignored her actually, just he didn't notice her up untill her fight with Neji.


Which is done by proving himself & impressing others.

Let me rephrase that; he will notice her more often.


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## izzyisozaki (May 5, 2009)

The manga is about bonds, strength, and the conflict between Sasuke and Naruto.

Evidence:



			
				Kishimoto in his artbook said:
			
		

> [About the cover of 181] Here I intended to express, in one picture, the main theme of the story, that is the conflict between Sasuke and Naruto.


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## Let'sFightingLove (May 5, 2009)

Ya, conflict leads to bad ass kung fu ninja beat downs, it's all about the kung fu beat downs.


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## Inuhanyou (May 5, 2009)

so on all this information the bond between naruto and sasuke is thereso therefore sasuke is like the second main character so he needs a girl too or else hell be out in the cold while naruto getsthe girl that sasuke was intrested in thats not a very good theme if hes one of the main characters naruto has hinata anyway so it isn like narutowould be that depresed cuz hes goin to return hinatas feeligs too because she loved him forever before anybody else knows him for what he is too

hinata lovednaruto forever and sakura was an anoying dumbass in part 1 alls fair in love so even if s akura liked naruto that way she never loved him when hinata did undonditional love him FOR WHO HE WAS and thats what matters


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## izzyisozaki (May 5, 2009)

Inu your seriousness is killing me 



Let'sFightingLove said:


> Ya, conflict leads to bad ass kung fu ninja beat downs, it's all about the kung fu beat downs.



Not exactly.

Just the entire quote about the illustration to get the point across



			
				Kishi in his artbook said:
			
		

> Here I intended to express, in one picture, the main theme of the story, that is the conflict between Sasuke and Naruto. Since they know each other very well, they don't let hostility show through not even while they are pointing weapons at each other. They seem rather calm. I thought if I had given them an aggressive expression I would have betrayed the spirit of the manga. On the contrary I believe their apparent tranquility is more stunning. I put the sea silhouetted against the sky in the background to express the battle between the two and the differences between themselves. The green and the red - and the sea and the sky - represent what never mixes.



Kishi is pretty deep about his manga


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## Kathutet (May 5, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> The manga is about bonds, strength, and the conflict between Sasuke and Naruto.
> 
> Evidence:


And each & every one of those bonds was created thanks to... Yes! Acknowledgment. I don't know what you're trying to prove with a quote that's only about one picture. =/


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## Rashman (May 5, 2009)

Serena-hime said:


> I know I'm takin' a break from the debate thread and all, but I felt like I needed to hop in a say something about that picture.
> 
> If I remember correctly, that was just a character sketch of Hinata. Possibly the first one Kishi did of her.
> And originally, Hinata was going to be a villager, not a ninja.
> ...



You are not really in the position to say that, friend. 

You said it yourself..No one knows what kishi was thinking when he drew that hinata sketch so you can't just rule out a possibility that he was foreshadowing naruhina. I'm not saying he was though, just to be clear.

Just so you know the picture was drawn because he wanted to show his editors how far he had gone with hinata's character design. the whole naruhina speculation comes because there was no need for him to draw naruto in the background for that.





> This picture is years old.
> And no, Hinata wasn't made to be Naruto's love interest when Kishi drew the picture.
> Kishi's editor said that Naruto needed a love interest, and that's where Sakura came in. That was one of the reasons why Kishi created Sakura.
> 
> ...



Is that right? where's your source? 

Because if you don't have a source, you couldn't be more wrong. 

From what i heard/read, Kishi's editor told him that naruto *needed a rival*, not a "love interest" as you said. Sakura being naruto's love interest was never one of the reasons why he created her. In reality, the actual reason or at least one of the reasons kishi stated as to why he created sakura was because *he thought it would be interesting if he introduced a dislikable character.*





> - Next, focusing on Sakura. What do you see as the image of a heroine?
> 
> K: My idea of a heroine isn't very clear. Because of that, even though I tried
> to depict a heroine, it didn't end up like one. "Someone unable to understand
> ...



So there you go...

Also seeing as how hinata liked naruto the moment she was introduced, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that she was partly created to be a *possible* love interest for naruto. 


Long story short, sakura did not come in because naruto needed a love interest as you said. i wonder where you got that from


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## Kathutet (May 5, 2009)

^ I'd love to hear your opinion on why Hinata should/could be the one to break the 'love triangle'. Afterall, if NH becomes canon, the love triangle Kishi has spent so much work on would be destroyed, wouldn't it?

Also, holy shit! It's been quite a while since you entered this thread.


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## izzyisozaki (May 5, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> And each & every one of those bonds was created thanks to... Yes! Acknowledgment. I don't know what you're trying to prove with a quote that's only about one picture. =/



That the manga goes beyond mere violence. I'm sick of lol, this is shounen, when the story doesn't exactly follow the typical shounen genre [ex. Dragon Ball] even if it's full of clichès.

@rashman- Kishi made it clear more than twice that he drew it only for fun and his assistant etc. Naruto is obviously there cos he's a key figure to her.


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## Kathutet (May 5, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> *That the manga goes beyond mere violence.* I'm sick of lol, this is shounen, when the story doesn't exactly follow the typical shounen genre [ex. Dragon Ball] even if it's full of clichès.


*That was already an established fact.*  But I never said this manga was following the typical shounen genre. I merely pointed out that everything (sadly) revolves around acknowledgment.

I'm sick of that argument as well. Maybe because we are both into another pairing that makes more sense than any of the 'Big' 
*Spoiler*: __ 






 3.


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## mystic868 (May 5, 2009)

believeit6 said:


> No, that's all irrelavant. Naruto would love Hinata because he loves her.



Best argument against NaruSaku and pro NaruHina I've ever heard  
Sorry cannot stop laughing


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## Rashman (May 5, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> ^ I'd love to hear your opinion on why Hinata should/could be the one to break the 'love triangle'. Afterall, if NH becomes canon, the love triangle Kishi has spent so much work on would be destroyed, wouldn't it?





The reason for that is simple. She is the only other girl intrested in naruto romantically. I mean you wouldn't expect a girl who has no serious romantic intrest in either naruto or sasuke to end the love triangle.

But honestly, i think the love triangle thing with team 7 was already destroyed when sakura said she loved sasuke. In a way, hinata won't really be breaking anything. 




> Also, holy shit! It's been quite a while since you entered this thread.



I'm being watched? 

But seriously, You should know how annoying this friggin debate thread can become  You would probably get tired of this place soon...


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## Kathutet (May 5, 2009)

rashman said:


> The reason for that is simple. She is the only other girl intrested in naruto romantically. I mean you wouldn't expect a girl who has no serious romantic intrest in either naruto or sasuke to end the love triangle.
> 
> But honestly, i think the love triangle thing with team 7 was already destroyed when sakura said she loved sasuke. In a way, hinata won't really be breaking anything.
> 
> ...


Actually it was never destroyed. There are still signs here and there that all three members still care for one another, albeit a bit sporadically. And, it can't be destroyed to be honest. As of now, the love interest of three members is very one-sided. Sakura loves Sasuke (fact), Naruto loves Sakura (fact), Sasuke loves... Both (more like caring for than really 'loving' but...)

They're all love rivals of each other. So if Hinata were to enter this triangle, it would become a love square. And if Kishi manages to pull that off, I'll tip my hat and salute him. That is not an easy thing to do.

Oh, you are. 
Yeah, I just raged a few posts back. I used to avoid this thread too, but I'm kind of back now.


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## izzyisozaki (May 5, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> But I never said this manga was following the typical shounen genre. I merely pointed out that everything (sadly) revolves around acknowledgment.



Don't recall myself arguing with you.



> I'm sick of that argument as well. Maybe because we are both into another pairing that makes more sense than any of the 'Big'
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah I imagine you'd know that argument; this manga is meant to be shallow/old school therefore SasuNaru fails. Oh but the Big 3 pairing becoming canon will be epic win of course. You can go back to your fanfics.


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## Kathutet (May 5, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Don't recall myself arguing with you.


I'm only here for some random lulz/posts/fun 





> Yeah I imagine you'd know that argument; this manga is meant to be shallow/old school therefore SasuNaru fails. Oh but the Big 3 pairing that will be canon will be epic win of course. You can go back to your fanfics.


I see it every two minutes. 

IMO, the so called "BIG" three has nothing on a certain other pairing when it comes to showing raw emotion. We've been deceived from the start, Izzy!


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## Rashman (May 5, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> Actually it was never destroyed. There are still signs here and there that all three members still care for one another, albeit a bit sporadically. And, it can't be destroyed to be honest. As of now, the love interest of three members is very one-sided. Sakura loves Sasuke (fact), Naruto loves Sakura (fact), Sasuke loves... Both (more like caring for than really 'loving' but...)
> 
> They're all love rivals of each other. So if Hinata were to enter this triangle, it would become a love square. And if Kishi manages to pull that off, I'll tip my hat and salute him. That is not an easy thing to do.



I see where you are coming from. 

But i still disagree mainly because i don't think naruto is in love with sakura...i have no concrete evidence for this so don't take this too seriously. Unless you want to hear my own personal reasoning for that...


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## Fay (May 5, 2009)

My personal opinion is, that there will not be a romance between characters in Team 7.

I see team 7 as being reunited soon, and Naruto and Sakura's dream of bringing back Sasuke come true. [Latest Kishimoto interview said that he'd make the conclusion to Sasuke vs. Naruto as happy as possible. The theme in part 2 is people accepting other people, thus I see Sasuke finally accepting his old teammates]

Sasuke still cares about his teammates deep in his heart, as 
*Spoiler*: __ 



the flashback in the kirabi fight shows us




I think a romance would destroy the bond between the team 7 members, and that is one of the reasons I don't see Kishimoto making a team 7 couple.


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## Kathutet (May 5, 2009)

rashman said:


> I see where you are coming from.
> 
> But i still disagree mainly because i don't think naruto is in love with sakura...i have no concrete evidence for this so don't take this too seriously. Unless you want to hear my own personal reasoning for that...


Hehe, don't worry. I have based my reasons to believe that Naruto is in love with Sakura on old evidence. They're all rivals of each other and I've also based my opinion on the way Naruto reacted to Sakura's presence on this page

I know, it's very old and shouldn't be taken that seriously anymore. He was the same like Sakura drooling over Sasuke back then, remember? 

By all means, do so. I'll have something to look forward to when I get back from work. Cya Rash.


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## izzyisozaki (May 5, 2009)

NaruSaku has plenty of raw emotion imo, I just see it better platonic. It's ambiguity is horribly irritating therefore romantic interaction between them would scar me for life, despite causing no permanent brain damage


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## Temp_Position (May 5, 2009)

SakuNaru would have be an awesome pairing, but Kishi had to go and complicate it with Sakura liking Sasuke. 

If Sakura liked Naruto, in pt.1 and a little more in pt.2. and Naruto, of course says he likes her and asks her out, why wont she just go out on a date with the guy?

(Im answering my own qurstion here). I understand its because she still has feelings for Sasuke, but because of that fact, it looks bad if she decided to say "what the hell" and go out with him. Naruto would look like the rebound guy, and not a love interest, even if Sakura starts listing off reasons for liking Naruto over Sasuke.

In a way, Sakura's refusal to go out with Naruto gives her character more props IMO. At least she cares enough to not use the guy for her own feelings. Its fair to start a relationship without baggage. 

In conclusion: Sasuke makes SakuNaru a sticky relationship. Its too much drama. They would fair better as platonic friends. (like Will and Grace, lol, j/k).


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## Rashman (May 5, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> @rashman- Kishi made it clear more than twice that he drew it only for fun and his assistant etc. Naruto is obviously there cos he's a key figure to her.



But that still doesn't rule out a posibility of him hinting at naruhina. Your interpretation is also a possible reason but it is still naruhina-ish. 

 I'm just saying nobody can rule out any possibility. 




Kitsune Naruto said:


> Hehe, don't worry. I have based my reasons to believe that Naruto is in love with Sakura on old evidence. They're all rivals of each other and I've also based my opinion on the way Naruto reacted to Sakura's presence on this page
> 
> I know, it's very old and shouldn't be taken that seriously anymore. He was the same like Sakura drooling over Sasuke back then, remember?



That's true but the thing is as part one went on, sakura's feelings went to the next level while naruto's just stayed the same. Remember that the chapter you posted mainly opened up the possibility of narusaku.



> By all means, do so. I'll have something to look forward to when I get back from work. Cya Rash.



Very well. 

When i look at the feelings characters have for another character, i create an imaginary line. Basically, if a character's feelings for someone cross the line, then that character is seriously in love with the person the character has feelings for and there probably won't be any going back.

Now naruto's feelings for sakura has not crossed that line IMO. He still likes sakura of course but how do i say it....there is no naru -> saku moment that completely ties naruto to sakura so simply put, while there are narusaku moments, the possibility of naruto falling for another girl is still open and if that possibility is open, then he isn't in love with sakura.

If you look at some of the major naru -> saku moments, kishimoto goes to the line but for some reason, doesn't cross it IMO. for example the gaara fight. Naruto risked his life to save sakura but kishi never stated it was because naruto romantically loved sakura instead it was because she was his important friend just like the rest of team 7. If it was done out of romantic love then the line would have been crossed.

Recent events in part 2 also hint at naruto liking but not being in love with sakura. His feelings for sakura are still childish just as it was in part one but even worse, it's reduced and this is bad at this point in the manga. All this proving that he likes but not romantically love her. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




when naruto leaves to train at myobokuzan, his goobbye to sakura was just....simple. Even now with the state konoha is in, naruto has not personally thought about sakura. With what god has done to konoha, if naruto was in love with sakura, you would expect him to think about the her even if only briefly but we get nothing. You have to see the problem with this.




I mean there just isn't any moment that seals naruto to sakura but if you think there are some, tell me.


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## mystic868 (May 5, 2009)

rashman said:


> But that still doesn't rule out a posibility of him hinting at naruhina. Your interpretation is also a possible reason but it is still naruhina-ish.
> 
> I'm just saying nobody can rule out any possibility.
> 
> ...



So the question is : Will Kishi cross it and where exactly is that border? Also is Kishi's meaning for Sakura to grow up connected with this border? IMO this relationships are still evolving, actually it has a little slowdown but it will probably emerge after Naruto' return from Nagato.


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## Forlong (May 5, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> He would do the same for the people he think is important. Like his teammates and commrades. If your talking about the Gaara fight, it was more about protecting his precious commrades, sakura and sasuke. As influenced by Sasuke.


To that extent?  I'm not sure about that.  He'd do it for Sasuke, but anyone else?  I'm not sure.



Temp_Position said:


> I agree that Naruto said in pt.1 that he has a crush on her. He keeps asking her out on dates and he even said that she is the girl he sort of likes. unlike the problem with NaruHina, we know that Sakura doesnt see him in a romantic light. She could like him in time (like how Naruto could like Hinata if he gave her a chance), but than what about her feelings for Sasuke? Who would be paired up with Sasuke.  All that pining for nothing and she ends up with the guy she finds most annoying. And if Naruto ends up with Sakura, what happens to Hinata?


Doesn't that make SasuSaku into "tying up romantic lose ends".  I honestly don't want Kishi-sensei to clarify who Hinata or Sasuke end up with.  It would just seem corny to me.  I imagine that Hinata would get over it and grow from the experience.  I see Hinata growing more if Naruto doesn't return her feelings than if he does.  But that's just me.



Serena-hime said:


> And no, Hinata wasn't made to be Naruto's love interest when Kishi drew the picture.
> Kishi's editor said that Naruto needed a love interest, and that's where Sakura came in. That was one of the reasons why Kishi created Sakura.


You'd better lock your door.  The NaruHina fans are going to open a bag of freak on you.



Afalstein said:


> True, but he did so only after Sasuke was going to run in and sacrifice himself.  That might have been just because he was scared stiff of Gaara, but Naruto didn't really kick it in until Sasuke spoke up.  I'm not saying he was going to leave her there, and he did end up risking his life as things went on, but it seemed a little strange for a complete "love vow."


It could be that Sasuke just reminded Naruto why he's fighting.  But that's just speculation on my part.



NarutoIzDaMan said:


> After Naruto returns from his talk with Nagato, who do you think would be more willing to hug Naruto right on the spot - Hinata or Sakura. Or better question, which of the two has it in them to do so


Maybe they both will and then have an awesome threesome that night. 



Inuhanyou said:


> hinata lovednaruto forever and sakura was an anoying dumbass in part 1 alls fair in love so even if s akura liked naruto that way she never loved him when hinata did undonditional love him FOR WHO HE WAS and thats what matters


That's how you feel, but what about Naruto?  He doesn't know she loved him for so long.  Also, if she loved him so much, why wasn't she there for him when he needed a friend the most?



Fay said:


> My personal opinion is, that there will not be a romance between characters in Team 7.
> 
> I see team 7 as being reunited soon, and Naruto and Sakura's dream of bringing back Sasuke come true. [Latest Kishimoto interview said that he'd make the conclusion to Sasuke vs. Naruto as happy as possible. The theme in part 2 is people accepting other people, thus I see Sasuke finally accepting his old teammates]
> 
> ...


I strongly disagree.  Romance will not destroy the team dynamics.


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## izzyisozaki (May 5, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> True, but he did so only after Sasuke was going to run in and sacrifice himself.  That might have been just because he was scared stiff of Gaara, but Naruto didn't really kick it in until Sasuke spoke up.  I'm not saying he was going to leave her there, and he did end up risking his life as things went on, but it seemed a little strange for a complete "love vow."



What ? Naruto was already fighting his ass off before any awesome Sauce came up.


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## Inuhanyou (May 5, 2009)

Forlong said:


> That's how you feel, but what about Naruto?  He doesn't know she loved him for so long.  Also, if she loved him so much, why wasn't she there for him when he needed a friend the most?




it doest mater naruto didnt know

hes gonna lov her BECUZ he didnt no it makes the return of feelins bigger god don't you know ththinatas feeling woud not b there if hinat wasnt gonna be with naruto her THEME IS TO BE WITH HIM and she worked hard at gettin him, hinatas theme iss the same as his WORKING HARD.

thats just 1 hint that its gonna hapen.

plus hinata didnt know about him bein picked on so it not fair for u to saythat she wuold nothave done anythin unlike sakura who aactully WAS THE MAIN ONE pickin on him do u think kishi would make them be together since shes like the main 1 who bullied him shes the enemy and hinata is the good choice kinda its like that and naruto will see tht hinata alwayas loved him before anybodym shes the right 1 cuz she actualy loves narutofor him and naruto never said nothin about likin sakura for a reson its just a crush for comedy theyre never serious after all and sakura never said anythin about likin naruto that way neither i think u better read the comic aagain.


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## Forlong (May 5, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> it doest mater naruto didnt know


Kinda does, since resipracation is essental to a romantic relationship.  Wow!  Please give spell check a shot.



Inuhanyou said:


> hes gonna lov her BECUZ he didnt no it makes the return of feelins bigger god don't you know ththinatas feeling woud not b there if hinat wasnt gonna be with naruto her THEME IS TO BE WITH HIM and she worked hard at gettin him, hinatas theme iss the same as his WORKING HARD.


So he's going to love her just because she loves him? 



Inuhanyou said:


> plus hinata didnt know about him bein picked on so it not fair for u to saythat she wuold nothave done anythin unlike sakura who aactully WAS THE MAIN ONE pickin on him do u think kishi would make them be together since shes like the main 1 who bullied him shes the enemy and hinata is the good choice kinda its like that and naruto will see tht hinata alwayas loved him before anybodym shes the right 1 cuz she actualy loves narutofor him and naruto never said nothin about likin sakura for a reson its just a crush for comedy theyre never serious after all and sakura never said anythin about likin naruto that way neither i think u better read the comic aagain.


Hold on.  She knew.  EVERYONE knew.  And were's the proof that Sakura was the one picking on him the most?
Naruto still cares for Sakura on the same level after three years.  That's "just a crush"?  And you need Sakura to confess her love for Naruto for you to eccept it as a possiblity?  You didn't need that for NaruHina.


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## Temp_Position (May 5, 2009)

Forlong said:


> To that extent?  I'm not sure about that.  He'd do it for Sasuke, but anyone else?  I'm not sure.



- Fighting for someone precious is what Naruto does. He's pretty intense when he does so. So, maybe thats why its difficult to discern what emotion he is running on. As for the Gaara fight, I interpret it as him fighting for _both_ of his precious people, Sakura and Sasuke. This fight wouldnt be a great example for NaruSaku. There are more examples of Naruto fighting for Sasuke (the Haku fight, the fight near the bridge) than there are of Naruto fighting for Sakura. I guess his promise of a lifetime might be something like fighting only for her? I dont know. 




> Doesn't that make SasuSaku into "tying up romantic lose ends".  I honestly don't want Kishi-sensei to clarify who Hinata or Sasuke end up with.  It would just seem corny to me.  I imagine that Hinata would get over it and grow from the experience.  I see Hinata growing more if Naruto doesn't return her feelings than if he does.  But that's just me.



SasuSaku would be like tying up loose ends. It would be quick, easy and less complicated for the 4 characters. IMO, I think Kishi-sensei is a big fan of corniness. Personally, I wouldnt like it, since im not a fan of the big 3. But, if there are going to be any pairings in the end, it just seems like thats the most likely outcome. I honestly dont want ANYONE to be paired with anyone, but im not the mangaka. 

I agree that if Naruto rejects her, she would grow, and grow into an individual. Its more strength to her. She would no longer be "Hinata, the shy girl who always watches Naruto," but she would be "Hinata, the independent girl who learned a lot from Naruto."


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## Inuhanyou (May 5, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Kinda does, since resipracation is essental to a romantic relationship.  Wow!  Please give spell check a shot



wtf is resipracation? 




> So he's going to love her just because she loves him?



no thts not wut im sayingg, im tellin u tht hinata love is pure and their would not be a reson for hinata to have such pure feelins just to b rrejected, that aint the good hardwork massage tht kishi is showin wiht naruto too.

if u serious think tht hinata gonna be in lov with him n suport him for so long jus for naruto to go off wit sum girl that dont even like him and hit him all the time for no reson and who LIKE SOMEONE ELSE WHO IS SASUSKE ur barkin up a tree. sakura even confes that she love sasuke like a long time ago and hinata confess too. the girls lov those too boys do u actualy think kishi gonna get rid of all that love 4 no reason i heard he sed he was gonna put love in shippuuden so this is the love hinatanaruto & sasukesakura after karin died after the fight with sakura.




> Hold on.  She knew.  EVERYONE knew.  And were's the proof that Sakura was the one picking on him the most?
> Naruto still cares for Sakura on the same level after three years.  That's "just a crush"?  And you need Sakura to confess her love for Naruto for you to eccept it as a possiblity?  You didn't need that for NaruHina.



??? um wut r u tallking about Nobody said nething nobody knew tht naruto was the fox cuz it was a secrt with the hokage god cant yo remember even the FACTS

lemme put it down for u

1 all u got is those retarded date askings 4 ur proof about naruto likin sakura and its JUST COMEDY she reject him every time cuz she dont like him that way and she hit him still even now after u say she love him

2 no i never say she confess she jus gotta show sum love to him to let ppl no. u actualy call SAKURA BEING A BITCH RIGHT AFTER JIRAIYA DYIN AND NOT EVEN SAYIN "IM SORRY UR ALMOST GRANDFATHER IS DEAD" bein in love wit him that idiot didnt even say sorry after goin off on him when she shoulda been helpin out

sakura dont like anruto and thats fact so dont come sayin that "oh u need sakura to confess" junk cuz shes had time n she failed its hinatas love now


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## Forlong (May 5, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> wtf is resipracation?


"Reciproation".



Inuhanyou said:


> if u serious think tht hinata gonna be in lov with him n suport him for so long jus for naruto to go off wit sum girl that dont even like him and hit him all the time for no reson and who LIKE SOMEONE ELSE WHO IS SASUSKE ur barkin up a tree. sakura even confes that she love sasuke like a long time ago and hinata confess too. the girls lov those too boys do u actualy think kishi gonna get rid of all that love 4 no reason i heard he sed he was gonna put love in shippuuden so this is the love hinatanaruto & sasukesakura after karin died after the fight with sakura.


Still don't understand half of what you're sayin'.



Inuhanyou said:


> 1 all u got is those retarded date askings 4 ur proof about naruto likin sakura and its JUST COMEDY she reject him every time cuz she dont like him that way and she hit him still even now after u say she love him


And Hinata fainting at the vary sight of Naruto isn't played for laughs?



Inuhanyou said:


> 2 no i never say she confess she jus gotta show sum love to him to let ppl no. u actualy call SAKURA BEING A BITCH RIGHT AFTER JIRAIYA DYIN AND NOT EVEN SAYIN "IM SORRY UR ALMOST GRANDFATHER IS DEAD" bein in love wit him that idiot didnt even say sorry after goin off on him when she shoulda been helpin out


What manga are you reading?  This is how Sakura treats Naruto after Jiraiya died (chapter 405 spoiler).


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## Farih (May 5, 2009)

Forlong said:


> So he's going to love her just because she loves him?



You're missing the forest for the trees.  Don't think too much about it.  See, Hinata's feelings have been a major part of her character since her introduction.  This isn't something Kishi just introduced.  NH fans have been waiting for a looonngg time (since ch. 98) for more NaruHina development.  True, it was put on hold for a bit, but everything's changed in the past couple of chapters.

Anyway, because Hinata's feelings are so important to her character, do you think Kishi will just brush them off now?  More importantly, do you think _Naruto_ will?  Why would he, when Sakura constantly bashes him like a tyrant and rejects all the date offers he makes.  Here's a girl who's willing to throw her life away for him, and he's going to choose the one that squashes every date offer he ever made?  Ok, yeahhh....

He doesn't have to immediately fall in love with her.  He just has to give her a chance.  Kishi just needs to show him going on a date or two with Hinata, and then all that fighting stuff can happen, and at the end of the series we can see Naruto and Hinata happily married with children and everything.


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## Kathutet (May 6, 2009)

rashman said:


> That's true but the thing is as part one went on, sakura's feelings went to the next level while naruto's just stayed the same. Remember that the chapter you posted mainly opened up the possibility of narusaku.


I know, that page is so old. 



> Very well.
> 
> When i look at the feelings characters have for another character, i create an imaginary line. Basically, if a character's feelings for someone cross the line, then that character is seriously in love with the person the character has feelings for and there probably won't be any going back.
> 
> ...


I... Have nothing to say, nor do I have anything to counter your statements.

I'm intrigued by your reasoning to say the least. Thanks Rash, it was a fun read.


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## JERITROLL (May 6, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Still don't understand half of what you're sayin'.
> 
> 
> And Hinata fainting at the vary sight of Naruto isn't played for laughs?
> ...



1. You aren't, lol.

2. Thank you, I've been dying for someone to bring this up.

3. Again, thank you, I hate that people bash Sakura for her reactions. The fact of the matter is that she doesn't understand what he's dealing with and is worried for both him and Tsunade at this point (she knows how much J-Man meant to both of them).



Anyways, for Naruto not crossing the line... It's all in perspective, I think. I see Naruto fighting Gaara as crossing it, as well as the Promise of a Lifetime. He didn't have to do that if it was only for him.

Now I'm going to give you points on bringing up that Naruto hasn't dwelt on thoughts of Sakura in Part 2. That's very true. But you can't throw out the bathwater, either. Naruto hasn't completely given up, and although said scenes are played for comedy more often than not, he still shows interest in her. That's more than could be said of Sakura towards Sasuke in Part 2. Again, not throwing the bathwater out here either. Basically, you can't say that Sakura's still in love with Sasuke and say that Naruto isn't still in love with Sakura. It just doesn't work that way. (not talking about you Rash, but about others, just thought I'd clarify that, didn't want you to take it the wrong way)

As for recently....
*Spoiler*: __ 



The goodbye was simple because he was never going to be gone for long. It was supposed to be just like any other training mission, and no one expected things to turn out the way they did. 

Now, the current arc....Frankly, I don't have an answer for this at all. I'm actually kind of baffled that he didn't. Even if he doesn't like her that way anymore (which I don't think is the case), you'd think he'd care about the status of one of his closer friends. The one thing I can think of is the fact that he can feel chakra in Sage mode and felt that she was far away from the battle and safe. But again, that's assuming way to much. I do think we'll have an answer to this soon enough, though, so patience is key. That's the main reason I don't care for debating current events until they're all played out.


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## mystic868 (May 6, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Kinda does, since resipracation is essental to a romantic relationship.  Wow!  Please give spell check a shot.
> 
> 
> So he's going to love her just because she loves him?
> ...



That's the problem cause NH fans need to see clearly confession from Sakura's site to belive in this pairing(or to have dubts for NH at least). 
Hinata's love was made to let her grow up. Now if she really loves Naruto, she will see that he's still worrying and caring about Sakura and will understand that she's very important for him. Real love sometimes need sacrifice so if she REALLY loves him she will let him go with Sakura, that's the real blessing of true love - to forgive and to let other person be happy.
And also I hope Sakura will finally grow up soon as Kishi-sama said. Maybe then she will be able to understand that the most important things in life are sometimes at hand's grasp.


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## Rashman (May 6, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> I know, that page is so old.



That's not bad..naruhina survived on old evidence for long time afterall. :amazed




TwilightLink20xx said:


> Anyways, for Naruto not crossing the line... It's all in perspective, I think. I see Naruto fighting Gaara as crossing it, as well as the Promise of a Lifetime. He didn't have to do that if it was only for him.





Let me ask you this Sasuke was ready do fight with all his might to protect sakura would you say it was because he was romantically in love with sakura?

The imaginary line i am talking about is a romantic one, not a regular line. Naruto fought with all his might to protect sakura but he didn't do it out out romantic love for sakura just like how sasuke willing to die for sakura wasn't done out of romantic feelings for her. 





> Now I'm going to give you points on bringing up that Naruto hasn't dwelt on thoughts of Sakura in Part 2. That's very true. But you can't throw out the bathwater, either. Naruto hasn't completely given up, and although said scenes are played for comedy more often than not, he still shows interest in her. That's more than could be said of Sakura towards Sasuke in Part 2. Again, not throwing the bathwater out here either. Basically, you can't say that Sakura's still in love with Sasuke and say that Naruto isn't still in love with Sakura. It just doesn't work that way. (not talking about you Rash, but about others, just thought I'd clarify that, didn't want you to take it the wrong way)



But i can say that. Sakura moved to the next step "love" while naruto still stayed  on the mere crush level IMO.

All the naru -> moments showed that still liked sakura but what you need are moments that show that he will only like sakura or at least he won't easily give up on her. The comedy in narusaku isn't exactly making narusaku look helping. 
I




> As for recently....
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



This still doesn't excuse the fact that there wasn't a good naru -> saku moment in that scene. If naruto is in love with sakura, there really is no excuse for that type of goodbye.

Also this isn't the first time. At the end of part if you remember he also did not even say sort of goodbye to sakura and he was leaving for 2 and a half years. So this isn't the first time. Doesn't that question his romantic love for sakura? (Just to be sure Do not misinterprete my coments.. sakura is important to naruto.)





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Now, the current arc....Frankly, I don't have an answer for this at all. I'm actually kind of baffled that he didn't. Even if he doesn't like her that way anymore (which I don't think is the case), you'd think he'd care about the status of one of his closer friends. The one thing I can think of is the fact that he can feel chakra in Sage mode and felt that she was far away from the battle and safe. But again, that's assuming way to much. I do think we'll have an answer to this soon enough, though, so patience is key. That's the main reason I don't care for debating current events until they're all played out.




Oh no you don't! The word "PATIENCE" belongs to us! 

But seriously, You are right. we should wait for the current events to play out.......



mystic868 said:


> That's the problem cause NH fans need to see clearly confession from Sakura's site to belive in this pairing(or to have dubts for NH at least).
> Hinata's love was made to let her grow up. Now if she really loves Naruto, she will see that he's still worrying and caring about Sakura and will understand that she's very important for him. Real love sometimes need sacrifice so if she REALLY loves him she will let him go with Sakura, that's the real blessing of true love - to forgive and to let other person be happy.
> And also I hope Sakura will finally grow up soon as Kishi-sama said.



You realize that you are just saying this just because you don't want naruhina to happen because this reasoning you are using should also apply to naruto. 

Also worrying and carring about sakura? when last did he do that? Sakura isn't the only important person to naruto. You see, Naruto hasn't singled her out of all the chaos that has happened so you really aren't in the position to do that.

Also one thing i don't understand from your post, hinata was willing to die for naruto doesn't that tell you how much she loves naruto? why does she have to let him go to prove her love for him again?




> Maybe then she will be able to understand that the most important things in life are sometimes at hand's grasp.



I really don't think sakura growing up has anything to do with pairings. You know, i could also turn this arround and a say that naruto growing up also involves him growing out of his crush on sakura.



*@Inuhanyou* and *Farihstar*: Looks like you two have lost it...


----------



## mystic868 (May 6, 2009)

rashman said:


> You realize that you are just saying this just because you don't want naruhina to happen because this reasoning you are using should also apply to naruto.
> 
> Also worrying and carring about sakura? when last did he do that? Sakura isn't the only important person to naruto. You see, Naruto hasn't singled her out of all the chaos that has happened so you really aren't in the position to do that.
> 
> Also one thing i don't understand from your post, hinata was willing to die for naruto doesn't that tell you how much she loves naruto? why does she have to let him go to prove her love for him again?



Well IMO true love that Hinata proclaimed to Naruto is unquestionably. But it's also true love when one person will see that another one is happy with someone other and then this person will let another one go freely for sake of deep feelings. And IMO Naruto risked so many times his life for Sakura to protect her and why he wasn't protecting Hinata's life? If she is so important person then why Kishi haven't placed her there for at least one situation where Naruto could save her life? Naruto is source of inspiration for Hinata, thanks to him she was able to grown up, but nothing more than that. And also if he would be in love with Hinata why he wasn't at least blushing near her? She was fainting all the time and what was his reaction? none reaction, he was just suprised why she's acting so strange. I personally like Hinata but  I also think that her role isn't to be main character gf but to be great example how he as future's Hokage should behave(he also realised that in last few chapters, and he grown up also). As for Sakura - she and Naruto will at first place want to bring their friend back(Naruto because he promised, and because Sasuke is like brother to him, Sakura because she wants it for Naruto and to recreate team 7 unfortunately without Kakashi). She IMO healed herself up from childish love for Sasuke and she will soon realise that sometimes the true happiness is at hand's grasp.


----------



## Forlong (May 6, 2009)

farihstar said:


> You're missing the forest for the trees.  Don't think too much about it.  See, Hinata's feelings have been a major part of her character since her introduction.  This isn't something Kishi just introduced.  NH fans have been waiting for a looonngg time (since ch. 98) for more NaruHina development.  True, it was put on hold for a bit, but everything's changed in the past couple of chapters.


NaruSaku fans have been waiting since chapter 3.  Though, I really don't see how that's relevant.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship is important to _both_ characters.



farihstar said:


> Anyway, because Hinata's feelings are so important to her character, do you think Kishi will just brush them off now?  More importantly, do you think _Naruto_ will?  Why would he, when Sakura constantly bashes him like a tyrant and rejects all the date offers he makes.  Here's a girl who's willing to throw her life away for him, and he's going to choose the one that squashes every date offer he ever made?  Ok, yeahhh....


Let's take a look at Naruto's situation.  He was ignored by everyone.  Sakura did pay attention to him, even if only to tell him to back off.  And whenever she turns him down for dates, she never tells him to stop asking.  It's been: "not if you can't pay", "you don't need to spend time thinking so much about that", and "not now".  Sakura is treating him very will with her rejections, don't you think.  She's letting him continue, if he wants, but is also letting him know what efforts she thinks are foolish.

If Sakura isn't interested in Naruto romantically, she must be a crappy friend for egging Naruto on like this.  And I'm positive she's not doing that.



rashman said:


> Also this isn't the first time. At the end of part if you remember he also did not even say sort of goodbye to sakura and he was leaving for 2 and a half years. So this isn't the first time. Doesn't that question his romantic love for sakura? (Just to be sure Do not misinterprete my coments.. sakura is important to naruto.)


That did bug me a bit.  I'm wondering if that moment will be used as a flashback.  I have no clue why Kishi-sensei didn't include it.



rashman said:


> Also worrying and carring about sakura? when last did he do that? Sakura isn't the only important person to naruto. You see, Naruto hasn't singled her out of all the chaos that has happened so you really aren't in the position to do that.


He stopped drawing on the Kyuubi's power after he found out it hurt Sakura.  The Kyuubi ripped Jiraiya's chest open and that didn't convince him, but it gives Sakura a little bruise and he can't stand for it.  Maybe he felt Jiraiya kind of deserved it.


----------



## Rashman (May 6, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Well IMO true love that Hinata proclaimed to Naruto is unquestionably. But it's also true love when one person will see that another one is happy with someone other and then this person will let another one go freely for sake of deep feelings. And IMO Naruto risked so many times his life for Sakura to protect her and why he wasn't protecting Hinata's life? If she is so important person then why Kishi haven't placed her there for at least one situation where Naruto could save her life?



1) i never said Hinata was more important to naruto, my main man. 

2) Hinata has already proven that she truly loves naruto more than anything else so there is no point in her letting naruto go to show how much she loves him. Also IMO, naruto's feelings for sakura are not deep enough for your senario to happen.

3) How many times has naruto saved sakura's life? I can only think of the gaara fight... Also Naruto doesn't have to save hinata's life to hint at naruhina. A girl being damsel in distress is not necessary hint for a pairing to happen.





> Naruto is source of inspiration for Hinata, thanks to him she was able to grown up, *but nothing more than that*.



Hinata disagrees with you on this. 




> And also if he would be in love with Hinata why he wasn't at least blushing near her? She was fainting all the time and what was his reaction? none reaction, he was just suprised why she's acting so strange.



That's because he never knew about hinata's romantic feelings for him. He knew, the chances are that he won't act the way he did but i suppose we will find that out soon.





> I personally like Hinata but  I also think that her role isn't to be main character gf but to be great example how he as future's Hokage should behave(he also realised that in last few chapters, and he grown up also).



Well i wouldn't say that. 






> As for Sakura - she and Naruto will at first place want to bring their friend back(Naruto because he promised, and because Sasuke is like brother to him, *Sakura because she wants it for Naruto and to recreate team 7 unfortunately without Kakashi).* She IMO healed herself up from childish love for Sasuke and she will soon realise that sometimes the true happiness is at hand's grasp.



Sakura also personally wants sasuke back and not just because of naruto to recreate team 7. If i recall she loved team 7 mainly because sasuke was there.




Forlong said:


> He stopped drawing on the Kyuubi's power after he found out it hurt Sakura.  The Kyuubi ripped Jiraiya's chest open and that didn't convince him, but it gives Sakura a little bruise and he can't stand for it.  Maybe he felt Jiraiya kind of deserved it.



Dude get that tight grip you have off my balls! Naruto thought jiraiya deserved it? you're breaking my ball man! 

He stopped using the kyuubi's chakra because he wanted to protect both sasuke and sakura. He still would have used the power to try and bring sasuke back even after he knew he hurt sakura.


----------



## Kathutet (May 6, 2009)

Forlong said:


> NaruSaku fans have been waiting since chapter 3.  Though, I really don't see how that's relevant.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship is important to _both_ characters.
> 
> *Actually, we've been waiting since the KN4 incident.*
> 
> ...


That is totally uncalled for. He *loves* Jiraiya to death. I don't think I need to elaborate on this.


----------



## Kathutet (May 6, 2009)

rashman said:


> 1) i never said Hinata was more important to naruto, my main man.
> 
> *Correct. In fact, everyone of the Rookie 9 is very important to Naruto.*
> 
> ...


It would have been the same if Sakura or Naruto would have left. Sasuke leaving the team has created a void in Team 7. I'd like to think of the NS relationship to be platonic at this level. The NH relationship at this moment is Naruto being confused and Hinata still the same (love). The SasuSaku bond hasn't changed in all of those chapters.


----------



## Tenrol (May 6, 2009)

> 3) How many times has naruto saved sakura's life? I can only think of the gaara fight... Also Naruto doesn't have to save hinata's life to hint at naruhina. A girl being damsel in distress is not necessary hint for a pairing to happen.




i don't know me too but since db3 said Naruto was always the one protecting Sakura imma go with that.


----------



## Forlong (May 6, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> That is totally uncalled for. He *loves* Jiraiya to death. I don't think I need to elaborate on this.



I was mostly joking there.  I seriously don't know why the Kyuubi trying to kill his sensei didn't convince him not to trust it.  But somehow, it hurting Sakura has done just that.  Seems that Sakura is more important to him than Jiraiya.  And I believe someone said that Naruto loved Jiraiya.  So...yeah...


----------



## Kathutet (May 6, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> i don't know me too but since db3 said Naruto was always the one protecting Sakura imma go with that.


As much as I hate to admit it, wrong. Sasuke told Naruto



			
				Sasuke said:
			
		

> Save Sakura, no matter what



Sasuke wished to save her as well, but ran out of chakra and was unable to do so. Databooks = not canon.

Mind you, I'm not on any side. Just leaning towards NS. I'm merely correcting you.

*Forlong* you have been forgiven my son! 
Thought so, but with all of these trolls, I don't know what to take serious and what not anymore.


----------



## Tenrol (May 6, 2009)

Kitsune Naruto said:


> As much as I hate to admit it, wrong. Sasuke told Naruto
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah he told him to but Naruto was gonna save Sakura even if Sasuke wouldnt have said anything.


----------



## Kathutet (May 6, 2009)

Tenrol said:


> Yeah he told him to but Naruto was gonna save Sakura even if Sasuke wouldnt have said anything.


You said:


> i don't know me too but since db3 said Naruto was always the one protecting Sakura imma go with that.



I disproved the fact that Naruto is *always* the one protecting Sakura. I don't know what you're trying to justify here, heh.


----------



## Forlong (May 6, 2009)

rashman said:


> Dude get that tight grip you have off my balls! Naruto thought jiraiya deserved it? you're breaking my ball man!
> 
> He stopped using the kyuubi's chakra because he wanted to protect both sasuke and sakura. He still would have used the power to try and bring sasuke back even after he knew he hurt sakura.



Actually, he stopped using it because he wanted to protect Sakura with his own power, and get Sasuke back with his own power.

And, for future reference, I have no desire to grip your balls.


----------



## Farih (May 6, 2009)

rashman said:


> *@Inuhanyou* and *Farihstar*: Looks like you two have lost it...



... I don't get it...



Forlong said:


> NaruSaku fans have been waiting since chapter 3.  Though, I really don't see how that's relevant.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship is important to _both_ characters.



I thought NaruSaku had been getting development all throughout part 2.  How is that "waiting since chapter 3"?

And how can you say the NaruHina bond isn't important to both characters?  Kishi put specific emphasis on Naruto learning to acknowledge Hinata.  Naruto even said, "I like people like you."  Hinata _is_ important to Naruto, and for obvious reasons Naruto _is_ important to Hinata.




> Let's take a look at Naruto's situation.  He was ignored by everyone.  Sakura did pay attention to him, even if only to tell him to back off.  And whenever she turns him down for dates, she never tells him to stop asking.  It's been: "not if you can't pay", "you don't need to spend time thinking so much about that", and "not now".  Sakura is treating him very will with her rejections, don't you think.  She's letting him continue, if he wants, but is also letting him know what efforts she thinks are foolish.



A rejection is still a rejection.  It doesn't matter if she does it nicely or not; she still denies his date requests, and they mostly just accumulate to comic relief.  Again, in contrast Naruto has just seen a girl willing to give her life up for him.  _Her life._  Nicely rejecting date requests pales in comparison to that kind of affection, don't you think?



> If Sakura isn't interested in Naruto romantically, she must be a crappy friend for egging Naruto on like this.  And I'm positive she's not doing that.



Egging Naruto on?  Manga proof, please.  You make it sound like she goads Naruto into the date requests, and I have yet to see that.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 6, 2009)

rashman said:


> Let me ask you this Sasuke was ready do fight with all his might to protect sakura would you say it was because he was romantically in love with sakura?
> 
> The imaginary line i am talking about is a romantic one, not a regular line. Naruto fought with all his might to protect sakura but he didn't do it out out romantic love for sakura just like how sasuke willing to die for sakura wasn't done out of romantic feelings for her.



Of course not! That was not what I meant.

Granted, it's up to the reader to determine it however they please, but you cannot ignore the fact that during the fight, he flashbacks to her numerous times (I'd post the number, but I don't have it in my head at the moment XD I'll come back w/ that in a little bit, I just know it's in the double digits.) Granted, Sakura's out cold, but it doesn't change the facts. 




> But i can say that. Sakura moved to the next step "love" while naruto still stayed  on the mere crush level IMO.



I really don't get how you can see Sakura's clear crush as the next step. If anything, I'd say that Sakura's so called "love" was even lower than Naruto's crush! What I mean to say by this is that Sakura had given her mind to Sasuke, and by the end of Part 1 was ready to give up. The reason she didn't give up on Sasuke (as a person) was because Naruto reaffirmed the PoaL at the end of Part 1. Even then, in Part 2, she points out that it's Naruto's bond that's strong, not hers.



> All the naru -> moments showed that still liked sakura but what you need are moments that show that he will only like sakura or at least he won't easily give up on her. The comedy in narusaku isn't exactly making narusaku look helping.
> I



Didn't get that last sentence completely, but I think I got the gist of it. You have a point, but it's still there. And it's more than he's shown to anyone else, that is certain. 

One thing to point out: It hasn't been stated yet because there is no one else.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Until 437, Naruto had no clue about Hinata having something for him. So, obviously, he never had to think about that. At this point, we just need to wait and chill out for Naruto's thoughts on the matter, it's that simple.







> This still doesn't excuse the fact that there wasn't a good naru -> saku moment in that scene. If naruto is in love with sakura, there really is no excuse for that type of goodbye.


While I agree, you also have to keep in mind that 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Naruto was recoiling from the death of Jiraiya. Heck, he still is in Naruto vs. Pain! Again, I agree that it doesn't excuse the fact that the good-bye should have been done better if Naruto does indeed love Sakura, but as stated before, it was unexpected, and Naruto's plate was already pretty full.






> Also this isn't the first time. At the end of part if you remember he also did not even say sort of goodbye to sakura and he was leaving for 2 and a half years. So this isn't the first time. Doesn't that question his romantic love for sakura? (Just to be sure Do not misinterprete my coments.. sakura is important to naruto.)



I do remember that actually. And if I recall correctly, Sakura was busy training w/ Tsunade when he and Jiraiya were leaving. So no, it doesn't question it that much, as he kind of got his good-bye for Sakura two chapters prior, when she leaves to become Tsunade's apprentice (Kishi tried to drag out the ending so he could set up Part 2). More reason it doesn't change anything: Upon his return to Kohona he says that she hasn't changed one bit. While it's a flub on his part, it's also telling that his opinion of her hadn't changed after the time-skip.




> Oh no you don't! The word "PATIENCE" belongs to us!
> 
> But seriously, You are right. we should wait for the current events to play out.......


Heh, consider it hijacked XD. And glad we can agree.




> *@Inuhanyou* and *Farihstar*: Looks like you two have lost it...



Heh, they probably have. Lots of interesting events have occured lately, but this isn't the place to speak of them. There's an explanation for everything, VM or PM me if you must know XD.


----------



## Forlong (May 6, 2009)

farihstar said:


> I thought NaruSaku had been getting development all throughout part 2.  How is that "waiting since chapter 3"?


Sakura went from thinking Naruto was nothing to being his number 1 supporter.  That's in part 1.  I'd call that significant developement.

ZARU!



farihstar said:


> And how can you say the NaruHina bond isn't important to both characters?  Kishi put specific emphasis on Naruto learning to acknowledge Hinata.  Naruto even said, "I like people like you."  Hinata _is_ important to Naruto, and for obvious reasons Naruto _is_ important to Hinata.


We've also had clear indication that Naruto and Sakura are important to each other, so both relationships are going to be significant.



farihstar said:


> A rejection is still a rejection.  It doesn't matter if she does it nicely or not; she still denies his date requests, and they mostly just accumulate to comic relief.


I have to disagree here.  She's not telling him to stop asking her out all together.  Why is that?


----------



## Tony Lou (May 6, 2009)

Hinata accepted Naruto as the loser he is,since the beginning. Sakura took time to do the same.

/thread


----------



## mystic868 (May 6, 2009)

rashman said:


> 1) i never said Hinata was more important to naruto, my main man.
> 
> 2) Hinata has already proven that she truly loves naruto more than anything else so there is no point in her letting naruto go to show how much she loves him. Also IMO, naruto's feelings for sakura are not deep enough for your senario to happen.
> 
> ...



Naruto's feelings for Sakura are deep and IMO her unrevealed feelings for him are also deep.
In manga he saved her hmm 1 or 2 times. Still manga is most important, I also take some hints from anime where Naruto saved her many times. Even if anime is not revelant well with anime still this scenes show us that he's caring about her so much to risk his life everytime she's in danger.
He didn't know about Hinata's feelings? Well that goes for Sakura too. He didn't think she has some romantic feelings for him still he was blushing. Accident? Don't think so
She loved whole team 7 especially Kakashi for his wisdom and Sasuke(childish love)


----------



## Louchan (May 6, 2009)

The Luiz said:


> Hinata accepted Naruto as the loser he is,since the beginning. Sakura took time to do the same.
> 
> /thread


So what?
This argument kinda confuses me.
Just because Sakura took longer time when it came to acknowledging Naruto, it means she's less _"worthy"_ of him?
What is this, some kind of first-come-first-serve?


----------



## Rashman (May 6, 2009)

farihstar said:


> ... I don't get it...


 
Really? awesome



Forlong said:


> Actually, he stopped using it because he wanted to protect Sakura with his own power, and get Sasuke back with his own power.



Exactly. Sakura wasn't the only reason why he decided to stop using the power. He didn't stop "just" because he hurt sakura. 



TwilightLink20xx said:


> Of course not! That was not what I meant.
> 
> Granted, it's up to the reader to determine it however they please, but you cannot ignore the fact that during the fight, he flashbacks to her numerous times (I'd post the number, but I don't have it in my head at the moment XD I'll come back w/ that in a little bit, I just know it's in the double digits.) Granted, Sakura's out cold, but it doesn't change the facts.



He gets flashbacks involving the whole of team 7 and iruka and eventually the rest of the rokie 9 and fodder. Sakura was not a major point of the flashbacks even with sakura being in immediate danger.




> *I really don't get how you can see Sakura's clear crush as the next step.* If anything, I'd say that Sakura's so called "love" was even lower than Naruto's crush! What I mean to say by this is that Sakura had given her mind to Sasuke, and by the end of Part 1 was ready to give up. The reason she didn't give up on Sasuke (as a person) was because Naruto reaffirmed the PoaL at the end of Part 1. Even then, in Part 2, she points out that it's Naruto's bond that's strong, not hers.



Apart from her confession? the reason why she loved team 7 was because of sasuke. I don't think she was going to give up on sasuke she was just extreemely depressed. I would go in detail but i don't want to debate sasusaku.

Sakura was talking about naruto's bond with sasuke there is no need for he to mention her own bond with sasuke. Sai wanted to know why naruto wanted sasuke back so badly, not sakura wanted sasuke back.





> Didn't get that last sentence completely, but I think I got the gist of it. You have a point, but it's still there. And it's more than he's shown to anyone else, that is certain.
> 
> One thing to point out: It hasn't been stated yet because there is no one else.
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Agreed.  

Afterall, my point is that naruto isn't deeply in love with sakura, I'm not saying he doesn't like her anymore.




> While I agree, you also have to keep in mind that
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I get your point but it's still not convincing enough. 



> I do remember that actually. And if I recall correctly, Sakura was busy training w/ Tsunade when he and Jiraiya were leaving. So no, it doesn't question it that much, as he kind of got his good-bye for Sakura two chapters prior, when she leaves to become Tsunade's apprentice (Kishi tried to drag out the ending so he could set up Part 2). More reason it doesn't change anything: Upon his return to Kohona he says that she hasn't changed one bit. While it's a flub on his part, it's also telling that his opinion of her hadn't changed after the time-skip.



I'm pretty sure if naruto loved sakura, we would have gotten something especially if hinata who is less important than sakura at least saw him off.




> Heh, they probably have. Lots of interesting events have occured lately, but this isn't the place to speak of them. There's an explanation for everything, VM or PM me if you must know XD.







mystic868 said:


> Naruto's feelings for Sakura are deep and IMO her unrevealed feelings for him are also deep.



If you say so.

Just don't be surprised if it turns out that naruto's feelings for sakura are mere crush level. Consider all possibilites!

i won't even bother talking about sakura's feelings for naruto.




> In manga he saved her hmm 1 or 2 times. Still manga is most important, I also take some hints from anime where Naruto saved her many times. Even if anime is not revelant well with anime still this scenes show us that he's caring about her so much to risk his life everytime she's in danger.



You really don't want me to bring up naruhina fillers, do you? 




> He didn't know about Hinata's feelings? Well that goes for Sakura too.He didn't think she has some romantic feelings for him still he was blushing. Accident? Don't think so
> She loved whole team 7 especially Kakashi for his wisdom and Sasuke(childish love)


I don't get this quote :S


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 6, 2009)

thx guys 4 backin me up

 u see NS fans?? like everbody is sayin, Hinata loved naruto b4 anybody so easy 2 see tht they gonna be together kishi isntt gonna put all tht love out ther e for nothin an hav it rejeted cuz hinata's love is the most truest out of any of the young kids hinata love naruto before anybody + sasuke n sakure even mor sakura tho cuz she was a bitch to naruto an rly still is she ddint even help wit pain when hinata did so hes gonna go to hinata now





Forlong said:


> "Reciproation".
> 
> 
> Still don't understand half of what you're sayin'.



????



> And Hinata fainting at the vary sight of Naruto isn't played for laughs?



uhh were u not listenin 2 wut i just said hinata love is serius like in chuunin exams cuz she even said wut she loved bout him then so it only naruto who need to learn about it now. fainting is cute type love for hinata cuz shes shy around him, u must not watch lotsa shows cuz sakurae is usually the bitch popular girl who goes out with the popular guy like sasuke n the geek boy got a best friend who he ignore tryin to get the popiular girl an in the end the geek an best friend get together wile the popular 1 is jelous.

plus sakura hittin naruto an bein so evil n a bitch isnt laughes thats just sad n pitiful that naruto go for a girl like that who dont care about him at all just usin him so she can get sasuke back. u narusakus only think she like naruto cuz sasuke aint there right now.



> What manga are you reading?  This is how Sakura treats Naruto after Jiraiya died (chapter 405 spoiler).



UM, NO


*Spoiler*: __ 




This is how Sakura treats Naruto after Jiraiya died

as u can see if u had actualy LOOKED at the manga she fuckin went off on him an had a damn attitude like she was some kinda king for the longest when she shoulda been bein nice an understandin about jiraya cuz she KNEW that he was sad about tht she was just bein a bitch cus she didnt get her way hinata woulda been diffrent to him if she knew about jiriaya dyin


----------



## Tony Lou (May 6, 2009)

Louchan said:


> So what?
> This argument kinda confuses me.
> Just because Sakura took longer time when it came to acknowledging Naruto, it means she's less _"worthy"_ of him?
> What is this, some kind of first-come-first-serve?



It means Sakura had a harder time at doing so.


----------



## Afalstein (May 6, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Naruto's feelings for Sakura are deep and IMO her unrevealed feelings for him are also deep.
> In manga he saved her hmm 1 or 2 times. Still manga is most important, I also take some hints from anime where Naruto saved her many times. Even if anime is not revelant well with anime still this scenes show us that he's caring about her so much to risk his life everytime she's in danger.



People keep bringing up how Naruto's feelings for Sakura are supposedly "deep."  But I've really yet to hear any reason why.  Sure, he's risked his life to save her, but he does that for all his friends.  Sure, he feels the same about her after a two-year timeskip, but she apparently still thinks he's annoying after the timeskip.  Plus, people keep calling Hinata's relationship with Naruto a "crush," although she's risked her life to save him (which is somewhat out of character), and kept her feelings over the timeskip.  

The only reason I've heard as to why he even likes her is some reference in Part I about how he "finally understands" what he likes about her.  Which, interestingly enough, is her dedication and perseverence in pursuing Sasuke.  Apart from that, I realize there have been may indications of him being impressed by her skills as a med nin and an uber-strong powerhouse, but that doesn't really reflect deep feeling.

I'm not going to say his feelings for Hinata are very deep as yet, though in my mind Hinata's one of the few people who knows how he can be insecure (not because she watched him--the Chunin exam scene where he revealed how nervous he was).  As of now, he doesn't really have any feelings for her outside of friendship.  But I don't quite understand why people keep saying Naruto has this deep relationship, where the only thing I can really see is a lot of time spent around each other.


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## izzyisozaki (May 6, 2009)

Whoever thinks Naruto doesn't really love Sakura needs to explain the PoaL without sounding gay


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## Nadini (May 6, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Whoever thinks Naruto doesn't really love Sakura needs to explain the PoaL without sounding gay



why obviously Naruto saw his sister in distress, accepted the love of SasuSaku, gave up on sakura, and vowed to get Sakura's boyfriend back for her.. not that he'll be left alone after that... He's got Hinata.


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## izzyisozaki (May 6, 2009)

nadini said:


> why obviously Naruto saw his sister in distress, accepted the love of SasuSaku, gave up on sakura, and vowed to get Sakura's boyfriend back for her.. not that he'll be left alone after that... He's got Hinata.



That's...so beautiful and coherent


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## Inuhanyou (May 6, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> That's...so beautiful and coherent



of course it is NEWB 

hintas the only 1 whos cared mostly about naruto thruoughout the series so shes gonna get narutos love. Naruto gonna relize jus like sakura from cardcaptors lerned(love dat show BTW ) bout her first crush tht she got sumbody who loves her for real an she gonna be with him instead its like that except naruto an hinata instead of sakura & syaoran ppl who dont read the manga and animes like that wont understand how its suposed to be


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## Rashman (May 6, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Whoever thinks Naruto doesn't really love Sakura needs to explain the PoaL



You are talking to me right? since i'm the only person here saying this. 

Sakura is an important person to naruto and he would do anything for her just like he will do anything for sasuke. Everything he does for her won't necessarily be out of romantic love for sakura but it can also be done out of platonic feelings. do you agree?

Even though he made the promise, bringing back sasuke is mostly about his fixing his bond with the sauce and not because he promised his true lub that he would bring back her tru lub for her.



> without sounding gay



You know how ironic this sounds? coming from you.. 

jk






At any rate, I guess i'm done with this thread. Seeing anti-naruhina fans pretending to be naruhina is just.....too much for me.


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## twilight (May 6, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> of course it is NEWB
> 
> hintas the only 1 whos cared mostly about naruto thruoughout the series so shes gonna get narutos love. Naruto gonna relize jus like sakura from cardcaptors lerned(love dat show BTW ) bout her first crush tht she got sumbody who loves her for real an she gonna be with him instead its like that except naruto an hinata instead of sakura & syaoran ppl who dont read the manga and animes like that wont understand how its suposed to be



I don't even understand what the hell you wrote. Your post makes about as much sense as a baby's hand writing. I suggest you use some type of grammar,spelling check if you expect people to actually make sense of this and be able to come up with a decent argument.


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## Louchan (May 6, 2009)

The Luiz said:


> It means Sakura had a harder time at doing so.


Again, so what?
Let's take a look at how Sakura's opinion of Naruto has changed from the very start of the series.
Sakura's early opinion of Naruto was based on plain old prejudice as well as a huge misunderstanding of his charcter.
In chapter 3 she describes Naruto as _"someone who enjoys watching her struggle"_.
Definitely doesn't sound like Naruto at all, now does it?
She has clearly misunderstood his character and intentions, thinking he's just messing around with her for the lulz.
However, after spending some time with him she quickly started to change her opinion about him.
A lot quicker than most people believe.
Chapter 13 is when she's for the first time *truly* stunned by Naruto's actions. There's even a small mention of her getting some kind of unknown _"feelings"_ from watching him.
During chapter 17 she silently admits to herself that Naruto really is growing stronger and stronger.
During chapter 27 she puts Naruto in the same boat as Sasuke, saying that neither of them will lose to Haku.
So by the end of the first arc of the series, Sakura has already started to acknowledge Naruto's skills, but is still having some problems with him as a person.
Her opinion of Naruto then goes on a rapid pace upward during the second arc, the chuunin exam.
During chapter 43 she almost raises her hand during the first test. Planning on giving up on the whole freaking thing, just to save Naruto's dream of becoming Hokage. She's ready to do this even though she knows that it would ruin both her *and* Sasuke's chances of becoming Chuunin.
During chapter 49 she calls Sasuke a coward compared to Naruto, and is by doing so putting Naruto in a higher position than Sasuke.
During chapter 74 she thanks Naruto for the first time, addmitting that without him she would have lost to Ino.
And finally, we have chapter 75.
Which is, in my opinion, the chapter where we finally get to see Sakura truly and fully acknowleding Naruto.

*Spoiler*: __ 









So yes, compared to Hinata, a character who starts of as someone who already fully admires and acknowledges Naruto, Sakura's path to doing so was quite a proccess.
But that's one of the things I so like about NaruSaku.
_Development._
In the end, they both have full acknowledgement and great admiration for Naruto.
So why does it matter so much who was first in doing so?
In fact, I think having to go through some progress and change of heart makes Sakura's acknowledgement of Naruto much more admirable than Hinata's.


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## izzyisozaki (May 6, 2009)

Oh Lou 



rashman said:


> You are talking to me right? since i'm the only person here saying this.
> 
> Sakura is an important person to naruto and he would do anything for her just like he will do anything for sasuke. Everything he does for her won't necessarily be out of romantic love for sakura but it can also be done out of platonic feelings. do you agree?
> 
> Even though he made the promise, bringing back sasuke is mostly about his fixing his bond with the sauce and not because he promised his true lub that he would bring back her tru lub for her.



But that's ignoring the implications of Naruto's words to her and why she flashbacked the time he was transformed as Sasuke.

You can't counter that without a heavily SasuNaru-suggestive argument.

The problem is he is shown as someone who's making a sacrifice to take in consideration her feelings. Naruto has given her _plenty_ of concern, but it's still not serious? Without SasuNaru I just don't get it 



> You know how ironic this sounds? coming from you..



Gay = good

But not if you ship a heterosexual pairing with Naruto 



> At any rate, I guess i'm done with this thread. Seeing anti-naruhina fans pretending to be naruhina is just.....too much for me.



I think it's more to point out what's bad about various anti-narusaku arguements.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (May 6, 2009)

Seriously....what in the world?

Naruto has shown great maturity by sacrificing his OWN feelings...by putting Sakura's happiness above his very own...by making the Promise of a Lifetime.  Even though, he was clearly hurting because of all this.

...How can that not be shown as how deep his feelings for Sakura are when he was selfless for her ?

Again and again, the reason why he did what he did is because....she is his love interest.....

Sakura's feelings have been ambiguous throughout part II....while Naruto has confirmed that he still feels really deeply for her (ramen scene: chapter 343).



One of Naruto's most important goals is to save Sasuke...and protect Sakura: 

Chamelon

Chamelon

They are Naruto's two most important people for different reasons, that should be obvious based on how Naruto views them, respectively.


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## mystic868 (May 6, 2009)

rashman said:


> Just don't be surprised if it turns out that naruto's feelings for sakura are mere crush level. Consider all possibilites!
> 
> i won't even bother talking about sakura's feelings for naruto.
> 
> You really don't want me to bring up naruhina fillers, do you?



I'm considering all possibilities, the reason why NS is not popular actually is that it's not obvious and clear as NH after confession. However it's still far more better developed from particulary zero to the strong bond between two people close to each other linked by associated by bringing their best friend back.



Louchan said:


> Again, so what?
> Let's take a look at how Sakura's opinion of Naruto has changed from the very start of the series.
> Sakura's early opinion of Naruto was based on plain old prejudice as well as a huge misunderstanding of his charcter.
> In chapter 3 she describes Naruto as _"someone who enjoys watching her struggle"_.
> ...


Louchan that's really nice talking. Big thx for that post


----------



## Farih (May 6, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> I think it's more to point out what's bad about various anti-narusaku arguements.



_Thank you!_  That's what I was trying to prove.  

Every argument I used pretending to be a NaruHina fan was actually an argument I had seen used against me somewhere on the web.  Like, the shadows and jewelry on that original sketch of Hinata indicate something major about NaruHina, "missing the forest for the trees"/Naruto just has to give Hinata a chance, Sakura constantly "abusing" Naruto and rejecting him...I was just simplifying them and trying to show what was so obviously wrong about these extremes.  These beliefs bring out the worst in the characters, like making Sakura into a punchcrazy freak, minimalizing Naruto's feelings for Sakura and simplifying the character of Naruto as a whole to make it look like he'll accept the confession of the first girl who does it, and much, much more.   

I dunno why Inu's doing it, probably for the lulz.


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## Rashman (May 6, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> But that's ignoring the implications of Naruto's words to her and why she flashbacked the time he was transformed as Sasuke.



I don't get this. Sakura believed that naruto never understood her until the POALT. I personally saw nothing romantic.




> You can't counter that without a heavily SasuNaru-suggestive argument.
> 
> The problem is he is shown as someone who's making a sacrifice to take in consideration her feelings. Naruto has given her _plenty_ of concern, but it's still not serious? Without SasuNaru I just don't get it



Concern? yes. Romantically? no. 

There is a difference between "love" and "romantic love". The reason i use "like" is just to make sure no one misinterpretes my posts. iI am not downplaying sakura's importance to naruto. Every single thing you are saying about the POALT scene is correct however, i just don't believe his romantic feelings for sakura wasn't a huge part of the reason he made the promise

Even if i agree with what you are saying, it doesn't still change the fact that naruto even after the POALT doesn't seriously pursue his "romantic love" for sakura. People need to realize that the sort of narusaku moment they are trying to create from the POALT scene is a double edged sword.



> Gay = good
> 
> But not if you ship a heterosexual pairing with Naruto



..............................



Fruits Basket Fan said:


> Seriously....what in the world?
> 
> Naruto has shown great maturity by sacrificing his OWN feelings...by putting Sakura's happiness above his very own...by making the Promise of a Lifetime.  Even though, he was clearly hurting because of all this.



He looked more hurt over sasuke breaking up with him...

Right, so naruto was mature to let sakura go... maybe that would explain the lack of seriousness in his feelings for sakura in part 2. 



> ...How can that not be shown as how deep his feelings for Sakura are when he was selfless for her ?



Oh he has deep feelings for sakura alright.... i just don't think the *romantic* part of all his feelings for her are "deep".



> Again and again, the reason why he did what he did is because....she is his love interest.....



Well i wouldn't say that.



> Sakura's feelings have been ambiguous throughout part II....while Naruto has confirmed that he still feels really deeply for her (ramen scene: chapter 343).



If you say so my main man. 

His romantic feelings for sakura IMO haven't crossed the line.




> One of Naruto's most important goals is to save Sasuke...and protect Sakura:
> 
> Itachi crow throwing Genjutsu
> 
> ...



No need to tell me this. It's not like i'm saying sakura isn't important to naruto.




mystic868 said:


> I'm considering all possibilities, the reason why NS is not popular actually is that it's not obvious and clear as NH after confession. However it's still far more better developed from particulary zero to the strong bond between two people close to each other linked by associated by bringing their best friend back.



I can agree with you that naruto and sakura probably has better development than naruhina and even sasusaku. but that is just development and not romantic development.

The thing is if a pairing has good development, it doesn't gurantee that romantic development will follow but if a pairing has romantic development, regular development is guranteed to come.

What makes a pairing canon is romantic development so narusaku just gets development and they don't get serious romantic development, it won't happen.

I'm actually interested to see if kishi would start to give romantic development to narusaku at this point.


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## Kaekoro (May 6, 2009)

Here's my two-cents on this:

It all depends on Sasuke's actions. 

If he 
*Spoiler*: __ 



attacks Konoha and kills non-Elders in cold-blood


, it'll be NaruSaku.

If Sasuke does not to the above, it will be NaruHina. 

Simple but I think logical.


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## Forlong (May 6, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> u see NS fans?? like everbody is sayin, Hinata loved naruto b4 anybody so easy 2 see tht they gonna be together kishi isntt gonna put all tht love out ther e for nothin an hav it rejeted cuz hinata's love is the most truest out of any of the young kids hinata love naruto before anybody + sasuke n sakure even mor sakura tho cuz she was a bitch to naruto an rly still is she ddint even help wit pain when hinata did so hes gonna go to hinata now


Seriously.  Learn...to...write!  This is the last time I'm going to respond to you.



Inuhanyou said:


> UM, NO
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: _Chapter 408 spoiler_ 



That was three chapters after the fact.  I'd say a few days have passed.  Jiraiya's death sank in for Naruto.  And that had NOTHING TO DO WITH JIRAIYA!  He didn't understand something Sakura probably expected him to grasp.  Hell!  Maybe she explained it before.






nadini said:


> why obviously Naruto saw his sister in distress, accepted the love of SasuSaku, gave up on sakura, and vowed to get Sakura's boyfriend back for her.. not that he'll be left alone after that... He's got Hinata.


I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Naruto wanted Sakura to be happy, even if he couldn't be.  That's love.



twilight said:


> I don't even understand what the hell you wrote. Your post makes about as much sense as a baby's hand writing. I suggest you use some type of grammar,spelling check if you expect people to actually make sense of this and be able to come up with a decent argument.


He's been bugging me for a while.  Just ignor him.



Louchan said:


> Again, so what?
> Let's take a look at how Sakura's opinion of Naruto has changed from the very start of the series.
> Sakura's early opinion of Naruto was based on plain old prejudice as well as a huge misunderstanding of his charcter.
> In chapter 3 she describes Naruto as _"someone who enjoys watching her struggle"_.
> ...


Yay!  Great points.  I don't understand what NaruHina fans mean by how important Hinata is.  She wasn't introduced for about 40 chapters.  Kind of a long wait for a major character. 



rashman said:


> Right, so naruto was mature to let sakura go... maybe that would explain the lack of seriousness in his feelings for sakura in part 2.


Er...how about Naruto no longer using the Kyuubi's power after it hurt Sakura?  Continuing to give her all those warm looks?  Blushing occationally while talking to her?



Kaekoro said:


> Here's my two-cents on this:
> 
> It all depends on Sasuke's actions.
> 
> ...



How does that have to do with anything?


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## A. Waltz (May 6, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Naruto wanted Sakura to be happy, even if he couldn't be.  That's love.



That, my friend, is called ONE-SIDED LOVE. Which all these pairings are. And there is no proof that Sakura is in love with Naruto in a romantic way. Interpret all you want, the only person we know so far that she truly loves in a romantic way is Sasuke. 



> I don't understand what NaruHina fans mean by how important Hinata is.  She wasn't introduced for about 40 chapters.  Kind of a long wait for a major character.




Excuse me? Hinata was first seen in episode one! Kishi made it really clear that she liked Naruto. Kishi also made it very clear that Sakura really really does not like Naruto and she likes Sasuke. Kishi also made it clear that Sasuke doesn't gaf about either of them until Kakashi teaches them about teamwork, and the 1st person he protected and used teamwork during a mission was Sakura. [When he stood in front of her before those ninja can attack when they where leaving Konoha to the land of waves] 

If you "NaruSaku" fans think Kishi DID NOT waste his time in Part One with developing the characters and how Sasuke left and about Naruto, then what gives you any right or reason to even consider that the mutual and romantic action, feelings, and relationships where for nothing?


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## Forlong (May 7, 2009)

AznUchihaChick said:


> Excuse me? Hinata was first seen in episode one! Kishi made it really clear that she liked Naruto. Kishi also made it very clear that Sakura really really does not like Naruto and she likes Sasuke. Kishi also made it clear that Sasuke doesn't gaf about either of them until Kakashi teaches them about teamwork, and the 1st person he protected and used teamwork during a mission was Sakura. [When he stood in front of her before those ninja can attack when they where leaving Konoha to the land of waves]
> 
> If you "NaruSaku" fans think Kishi DID NOT waste his time in Part One with developing the characters and how Sasuke left and about Naruto, then what gives you any right or reason to even consider that the mutual and romantic action, feelings, and relationships where for nothing?



Filler don't count!  Kishi-sensei developed NaruSaku plenty.  Didn't you see Louchan's post?


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## Tyrannos (May 7, 2009)

AznUchihaChick said:


> Excuse me? Hinata was first seen in episode one! Kishi made it really clear that she liked Naruto. Kishi also made it very clear that Sakura really really does not like Naruto and she likes Sasuke. Kishi also made it clear that Sasuke doesn't gaf about either of them until Kakashi teaches them about teamwork, and the 1st person he protected and used teamwork during a mission was Sakura. [When he stood in front of her before those ninja can attack when they where leaving Konoha to the land of waves]
> 
> If you "NaruSaku" fans think Kishi DID NOT waste his time in Part One with developing the characters and how Sasuke left and about Naruto, then what gives you any right or reason to even consider that the mutual and romantic action, feelings, and relationships where for nothing?



Whoa, there!   What you are refering is called character development and the building up of Naruto and Sasuke's plots.   Part 1 was specifically focused on Team 7's unity and then it's destruction at the end.   Part 2 was focused on their darker emotions where they are having to deal with tragedy and restore what they had.

And you have *no* right to say that Sakura's romantic feelings for Sasuke is more important than Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura.   Remember, Naruto is the title character, so his affection for Sakrua isn't insignificant.


As for Hinata being in Episode 1.  You know that's *filler* and that Kishimoto had no say over it, right?


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## Kaekoro (May 7, 2009)

NaruSaku has been developed plenty, in fact there are several more incidents of NaruSaku than SasuSaku, in fact the only real manga evidence is for NaruHina and NaruSaku, SasuSaku barely exists. The one incident I can think of that supports Sakura and Sasuke getting together is when he says "Thank you" to Sakura... that's it. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata nearly died for Naruto and Sakura has become increasingly attached and proud of Naruto.





*Spoiler*: __ 



NaruHina will not happen simply because of 437. If this was so, NaruSaku would have happened after the Yamato-Sakura dialogue following Naruto's fight with Orochimaru.


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## A. Waltz (May 7, 2009)

oh but it happened in the 1st chapter too. didnt it? xP 

And what makes you Sakura's feelings are less important than Naruto's?

The biggest flaw in NaruSaku is one thing; Sakura's feelings towards Naruto have not been explained as ROMANTIC feelings, have they? no. She's never said that she liked Naruto in a romantic way. ever. She HAS said it for sasuke. but up to this point in the manga, we dont know if she still has feelings for sasuke or if she has romantic feelings for naruto. theres just no telling up to this point and discussing it right now would be useless. its like saying who is going to win in a race, anything could happen from the point they leave the starting line and by the time they get to the end. we won't know what happens with these pairings until at LEAST it's back to normal naruto world. and hinata's confession might have triggered some sparks. weather its jealousy confusion attraction, that was sparked, and then we'll see some more romantic action, well, not like THAT, but you know what i mean o__o people will realize who they like and what not. whatever happens im still a sasusaku fan though..


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## KawaiiKurochan (May 7, 2009)

I also think Narusaku has developed since a while back especially on Shippuden...


Though i greatly support NaruHina and SasuSaku...

And Hinata does like Naruto and I think theyll end up... so that'll leave Sakura and Sasuke... And Sasuke does care for Sakura ne?


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## Inuhanyou (May 7, 2009)

KawaiiKurochan said:


> I also think Narusaku has developed since a while back especially on Shippuden...
> 
> 
> Though i greatly support NaruHina and SasuSaku...
> ...



Yea your rigt, sasukey doesnt hate sakura and he said thank u to her for loving him so that means theyr gonna b together 

he was jus going revenge for itachi for the clan and went in to orochimaru cause he had to get strong, soon as he turns good agan he will be with sakura cause she truly loves him an never gave up on him she trained for three year to get him back cause she loves him so much 

hinata too loves naruto so theyll b together hinata would be sad if naruto didnt love her back...and the hole series havin hinata love naruto before anybody would be wasted thats a bad message i think


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## A. Waltz (May 7, 2009)

yes... who's side r u on Inuhanyou? because you're either being sarcastic or good. o__o


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## Kathutet (May 7, 2009)

Hello, throwing in something random again.

I think Sakura doesn't like to show her emotions to Naruto like that (love). I've read someone's post regarding her not comforting Naruto after Jiraya's... Yeah. She does not talk to him or runs after him until he has left the room himself. Maybe Sakura is insecure about her feelings for Naruto?

Please, discuss. I'm just bringing this up because I am pretty bored atm and am searching for a debate without disturbing someone else's. Lol.

Oh, and also because I don't like to read walls of text of which I don't know what they're all about (srsly).


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## Temp_Position (May 7, 2009)

IMO I think that Sakura would be insecure about "feelings" she has for Naruto. I think it makes sense because it would be weird for her character to all of a sudden start caring about Naruto. She probably doesnt want to lead him on because she knows that he likes her and she cant offer her heart to him because of Sasuke. She has too much emotional baggage over Sasuke for her to even accept any feelings she has for Naruto. If she has any that are romantic. 

Anyway, If she did comfort him during Jiraiya's death,than...more power to NaruSaku, although even this scenario could be interpreted as platonic friendship. 

All of these pairings have loose ends. All we know of these 4 characters is this:

1) Naruto claims to have romantic feelings for Sakura
2) Sakura claims to have romantic feelings for Sasuke
3) Hinata claims to have romantic feelings for Naruto
4) Sasuke is too ambiguous to even bring up in this debate. 

Until we get a positive response from Naruto for Hinata, than NaruHina cant happen. 
Until we get a positive response from Sasuke for Sakura, than SasuSaku cant happen.
Until we get a positive response from Sakura for Naruto, than NaruSaku cant happen. 

Well, thats how it is. Incomplete. We just have to wait til all of there political drama subsides.


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## A. Waltz (May 7, 2009)

@Inuhanyou..hm..sorry..its cuz im a sasusaku and naruhina fan, but in the sasusaku club i heard people like being sarcastic and giving funny reasons for why narusaku fans r narusaku fans..so i thought you where a narusaku fan being sarcastic and all that xd sozz... x( 

@Kitsune Naruto..im pretty sure Sakura has no trouble showing her feelings of annoyance and hate and love. She isn't the kind to not say what she's thinking..unless its about sasuke xDD


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## Kathutet (May 7, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> @Kitsunenaruto - that's not possible i mean jus cuz she never said they were jus friends dont mean she don't love him as a platonic friend, narusaku fan like to say tht sakura love naruto because of yamato, but wut would happen if u took yamato away there would b 0 narusaku fan...


I never said she doesn't love him nor did I say anything about Yamato or NaruSaku fans. I asked if this sounds like a plausible theory.


Temp_Position said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed! Not to mention that Sakura is a pride being. She admitted to not liking him in the past, perhaps her pride and insecurities prevent her from taking back her words and replacing them with 'I love you'.


AznUchihaChick said:


> @Kitsune Naruto..im pretty sure Sakura has no trouble showing her feelings of annoyance and hate and love. She isn't the kind to not say what she's thinking..unless its about sasuke xDD


Well, she has no problems showing hate, annoyance and love, but this is something different. Please read my statement above & reply.


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## Louchan (May 7, 2009)

AznUchihaChick said:


> oh but it happened in the 1st chapter too. didnt it? xP


No.
Hinata didn't make an apperance until chapter 34, in which she has a quick silent pannel with her team.
She wasn't properly introduced until chapter 39 though, together with the rest of the other rookies.

_(Sadly, I don't have time to reply to any longer posts, since I'm off to school now.)_


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## Forlong (May 7, 2009)

Kaekoro said:


> NaruSaku has been developed plenty, in fact there are several more incidents of NaruSaku than SasuSaku, in fact the only real manga evidence is for NaruHina and NaruSaku, SasuSaku barely exists. The one incident I can think of that supports Sakura and Sasuke getting together is when he says "Thank you" to Sakura... that's it.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent burn.



Kitsune Naruto said:


> I think Sakura doesn't like to show her emotions to Naruto like that (love). I've read someone's post regarding her not comforting Naruto after Jiraya's... Yeah. She does not talk to him or runs after him until he has left the room himself. Maybe Sakura is insecure about her feelings for Naruto?


Well the first guy she said "I love you" to responded with "you're annoying".  That might have had a effect on her.  She also might feel that she doesn't deserve Naruto's love.



AznUchihaChick said:


> @Kitsune Naruto..im pretty sure Sakura has no trouble showing her feelings of annoyance and hate and love. She isn't the kind to not say what she's thinking..unless its about sasuke xDD



Sakura never had trouble expressing her feelings for Sasuke, and look where that's gotten her.  And Kishi-sensei has said that she's unsure about her feelings for Naruto.


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## XXXTurkey (May 7, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:
			
		

> Whoever thinks Naruto doesn't really love Sakura needs to explain the PoaL without sounding gay



Okay, so page nine is first time Naruto thinks of Sakura.  He remembers reassuring Sakura that Sasuke wouldn't leave the village.  But Sasuke has.  Why is Naruto upset? ("Dammit, Sasuke, why?")  Because he was wrong.  No NaruSaku there.

Page ten and eleven.  Naruto surprised at the fact that Sakra couldn't stop him.  In fact, so is Shikamaru and Lee.

Page 12.  Sakura starts crying.  Because of Sasuke ("Please bring him back").  There is no other reason she is crying.  She acknowledges that Naruto is the only other person with a strong enough bond to bring him back ("The only person who can probably save Sasuke-kun now is you...Naruto").

I don't know how to say this without sounding crude but i don't think this amounts to Sakura acknowledging that Naruto and Sasuke are, in your words, "gay".  It's just that Naruto is the only person that Sasuke has a strong bond with, who he hasn't faced yet.  Sasuke had already spoken to both Sakura and Kakashi.

Then, bottom of the page, we have Naruto acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. "You really like Sasuke, huh?", and at this point, i have to branch off slightly.

Is he giving up on her here or not?  I've heard many arguments on this and i have to work this out in my head, perhaps with some help from other people here.

I have heard:

*If he's giving up on her, then that proves he's willing to sacrifice his feelings for hers.  So he loves her.*

Well hold on, can't we say there's a similar amount of truth in the statement that:

*He realises that her feeling's are for someone else, is hurt (but not devastated), and decides to move on.*

The answer, i think, comes on the next page.

Here, the important words on Naruto's part are "I know how much pain you're in because of Sasuke.  I can understand"

And the question is, what does he understand?  I think it is the fact that someone very important to him has left, and is trying to sever the bond between them.  You can't ignore the fact that Naruto has a very strong bond with Sasuke himself.

That moment, that "understanding" is *not* Naruto drawing a parallel between Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and his feelings for Sakura.  Why do i think that?  Because it is not Naruto that flashbacks to the chapter 3 moment, it is Sakura.  Had it been Naruto flashing back that moment, his feelings would have been put in sharp relief.  It would have shown that the pain from what Sakura said to him in chapter 3 is similar to what Sakura is feeling now.

As it is, the fact it was Sakura that flashed back is completely separate from Naruto's feelings.  It is a growth moment for Sakura, *not* a highlight of Naruto's feelings.  The reason there is confusion is because of the *other* scene in chapter 3 which is a (flimsy) basis for another supposed NaruSaku moment.

I mean, even the promise itself is not solely for Sakura's sake.  It's also for his own sake.  He promises himself that he will get Sasuke back.  Proof?

When Naruto eventually meets Sasuke in part 2, what does Naruto say?  Chapter 307:

"Like there's any chance that someone who can't save a friend, could become Hokage".

Naruto has put his biggest dream behind saving Sasuke.  He has made a decision that he can't become Hokage before he saves Sasuke.  Is it much of a stretch to argue that this decision was made back at the PoLT?  Perhaps the thought wasn't fully fledged, but that is a demonstration of how Naruto's thoughts are not focused solely on Sakura.

So i guess that's why, when it is suggested that Naruto's promise to get Sasuke back is just for Sakura, i just don't buy it.  To do so is to completely devalue Naruto's friendship with Sasuke, which is pretty much the entire basis of this manga.  Naruto wants Sasuke back himself, as much as, if not more than, he is getting him back for Sakura.

Furthermore, reducing Naruto's desire to get Sasuke back to a romantic gesture is proved wrong to a much greater degree later on in the manga.  If Naruto is getting back Sasuke "for" Sakura, letting her help devalues that gesture.  Unless, the actual reason is that the goal is to return Sasuke to the village and not win Sakura over.  The latter is obviously the case.

To be honest, in my eyes, the PoLT harms NaruSaku more than enhances it.

I guess the point i am making is that the promise is not a romantic moment and i've tried to argue why i think that is.

Everything else that is being argued, i've already covered.  I could trawl through my previous posts and put them up but this post will probably get enough debate as it is.  I just can't believe people are still questioning Hinata's feelings...


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## mystic868 (May 7, 2009)

Sakura's heart was hurt by Sasuke so it's not strange that she will now have problems with expressing her feelings to someone else.


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## Forlong (May 7, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Page 12.  Sakura starts crying.  Because of Sasuke ("Please bring him back").  There is no other reason she is crying.  She acknowledges that Naruto is the only other person with a strong enough bond to bring him back ("The only person who can probably save Sasuke-kun now is you...Naruto").


Couldn't that logically be taken as Sakura giving up on Sasuke?  She acknowledged that Sasuke was closer to Naruto than to her. 



XXXTurkey said:


> That moment, that "understanding" is *not* Naruto drawing a parallel between Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and his feelings for Sakura.  Why do i think that?  Because it is not Naruto that flashbacks to the chapter 3 moment, it is Sakura.  Had it been Naruto flashing back that moment, his feelings would have been put in sharp relief.  It would have shown that the pain from what Sakura said to him in chapter 3 is similar to what Sakura is feeling now.
> 
> As it is, the fact it was Sakura that flashed back is completely separate from Naruto's feelings.  It is a growth moment for Sakura, *not* a highlight of Naruto's feelings.  The reason there is confusion is because of the *other* scene in chapter 3 which is a (flimsy) basis for another supposed NaruSaku moment.


But isn't that developement of Sakura's feelings for Naruto?  And I don't think Naruto was "giving up" on Sakura.  I thought he was doing something to make her happy, even if he couldn't be.  He still held onto his feelings for her.  So that makes it a NaruSaku moment, doesn't it?



XXXTurkey said:


> I mean, even the promise itself is not solely for Sakura's sake.  It's also for his own sake.  He promises himself that he will get Sasuke back.  Proof?


Apparently the promise is still important to him.  When Itachi used Genjutsu to make Naruto face his worst fears, he saw Sakura coming out of his stomach (wierd) and saying "I trusted you".  Just to make sure you know, the Japanese believe the stomach is where the soul lives, and where your deepest fears reside.  So Naruto's worst fear is facing the fact that he didn't come through for Sakura.


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## ButterflyGod (May 7, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Okay, so page nine is first time Naruto thinks of Sakura.  He remembers reassuring Sakura that Sasuke wouldn't leave the village.  But Sasuke has.  Why is Naruto upset? ("Dammit, Sasuke, why?")  Because he was wrong.  No NaruSaku there.
> 
> Page ten and eleven.  Naruto surprised at the fact that Sakra couldn't stop him.  In fact, so is Shikamaru and Lee.
> 
> ...



Pretty much agree with everything word for word. The PoaL is perverted beyond sense. It is what it is for when it was said. I see it as a catalyst for Sakura's decision to train so she could do her part to help get Sasuke back too and not burden Naruto like that i.e. having him make such a grand sweeping statement like that with no garuantee whatsoever that he'd able to even live up to it.

But the bolded makes absolutely no sense to me. Hinata loves Naruto. I can understand arguing about whether _he _will return her feelings but you can't use evidence that isn't there to claim the same about Hinata. Must flash cards be used? Or small words? How about a manga scan?

 Bansho Tenin

I'm not nuts about NaruHina myself, it's cute and all and I'd be happy if it happened cause they're both nice kids, but, I mean, come on... there's loving what you ship and then there's what's in the actual manga. I love SasuSaku myself and think it has a decent chance of going canon but I'm not living in fantasy land. Sasuke may not return her feelings. Sakura may not love him the way she used to. But I do not ever doubt that she did sincerely love him when she confessed to him and I'm not going to pretend she meant anything else other than what she said.


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## Kage (May 7, 2009)

i don't understand what you're trying to prove turkey. anybody who thinks PoaL is primarily about naruto bringing back sasuke for sakura's sake is doing some horribly selective reading.

but to deny that naruto is taking special consideration of sakura's feelings and that sakura doesn't recognize that and come to value naruto more as a person is a bit much. 

it's not the most ground breaking evidence for NaruSaku there is considering the context over all but i don't think it's especially damming either.





XXXTurkey said:


> Everything else that is being argued, i've already covered.  I could trawl through my previous posts and put them up but this post will probably get enough debate as it is.  *I just can't believe people are still questioning Hinata's feelings...*



honestly it's not _hinata's_ feelings people are worried about. most of everyone i've seen in here is arguing _naruto's_ cause apparently he's so love starved and in serious need of romantic acknowledgment (_ordinary_ acknowledgment of his existence is never what he really wanted from people anyway)  he will react in a way that's positive for naruhina as a result. never mind he's never once considered hinata romantically. never mind he didn't get the chance to. never mind the fact he does have someone he's considered romantically and he appears to still harbor such thoughts (if brief and not heavily emphasized) 

in fact just never mind naruto _at all_ because hinata is such a nice girl and she's loved him from the very beginning and surely that grants her any and all rights to his person. and since the manga is about bonds and accepting them surely naruto won't reject her because that would go against the entire theme of the manga and against naruto's very character. naruto will recognize hinata as the first person to accept him from the bottom of their heart (there is most certainly *no one else* who can make that claim) and that will move him to give her a chance and inevitably fall in love with her too. 

come _on._ talk about PoaL being flimsy for NaruSaku ...we've got people here claiming naruto not reciprocating hinata's feelings throws off the _entire_ manga


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## Louchan (May 7, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Okay, so page nine is first time Naruto thinks of Sakura.  He remembers reassuring Sakura that Sasuke wouldn't leave the village.  But Sasuke has.  Why is Naruto upset? ("Dammit, Sasuke, why?")  Because he was wrong.  No NaruSaku there.


I disagree.
Like you said, Naruto remembers the promise he made to Sakura back then, that Sasuke would never leave them for the Sound ninjas.
The next pannel then has a large zooming in of Sakura's smiling face, to which Naruto then grits his teeth and thinks the words _"Dammit, Sasuke, why?"_.
I believe that the biggest reason why Naruto is so upset here is because Sasuke, by leaving them, betrayed and let Sakura down.
Which by doing so made that promise and all those comforting words he told Sakura totally meaningless.
Otherwise there wouldn't be such a huge focus on Sakura _(especially the quite large pannel of her smiling face)_ during this page.
I honestly don't believe Naruto is very crushed about Sasuke leaving at this point.
Pissed off, sure, but not sad, worried, or crushed.
Why?
Because he still doesn't believe that Sasuke has truly left them.
The reason I think this is because of this scene in chapter 209, where Naruto finally catches up with Sasuke again.

His happy and carefree reaction speaks for itself, doesn't it?
One has to remember that Naruto is exteremly naive.
Up to this point, the thought that Sasuke, his best friend and rival, had really decided to leave them on his own accord was something that Naruto just couldn't immagine.
I should add another interesting thing about this scene, which comes with the next page.

Naruto once again thinks of Sakura's worried face, grows angry, and shouts at Sasuke.
Now tell me, why do you think is?




XXXTurkey said:


> Page ten and eleven.  Naruto surprised at the fact that Sakra couldn't stop him.  In fact, so is Shikamaru and Lee.


He's surprised to see her there and surprised that she's already spoken with Sasuke so yes, that is correct.



XXXTurkey said:


> Page 12.  Sakura starts crying.  Because of Sasuke ("Please bring him back").  There is no other reason she is crying.  She acknowledges that Naruto is the only other person with a strong enough bond to bring him back ("The only person who can probably save Sasuke-kun now is you...Naruto").


Agreed.



XXXTurkey said:


> I don't know how to say this without sounding crude but i don't think this amounts to Sakura acknowledging that Naruto and Sasuke are, in your words, "gay".  It's just that Naruto is the only person that Sasuke has a strong bond with, who he hasn't faced yet.  Sasuke had already spoken to both Sakura and Kakashi.


Once again, I agree.
... Well, minus the whole "gay" thing. 



XXXTurkey said:


> Then, bottom of the page, we have Naruto acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. "You really like Sasuke, huh?", and at this point, i have to branch off slightly.
> 
> Is he giving up on her here or not?  I've heard many arguments on this and i have to work this out in my head, perhaps with some help from other people here.
> 
> ...


I don't think that second theory of him _"moving on"_ holds much water considering how Naruto continues being obviously attracted to Sakura throughout the rest of the series and up to present point. 



*EDIT:* Fixed the broken picture links. (1/2)


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## Louchan (May 7, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> The answer, i think, comes on the next page.
> 
> Here, the important words on Naruto's part are "I know how much pain you're in because of Sasuke.  I can understand"
> 
> ...


I fully *dis*agree.
I do believe that the pain Naruto was speaking of was indeed the pain of being a victim to one-sided love.
One might find it obvious for me to have this opinion since I'm a NaruSaku fan, but for me it's also the theory that makes the most sense.
First of all, like I said earlier, I do not think Naruto truly believes that Sasuke has left them at this point. _(For reasons I also explained earlier in this post.)_ Thus there is no reason for him to be all sad about it.
Second, Naruto's thoughts during this scene are supposed to be vague _(his eyes not showing in the first pannel visually supports this)_ so I think it's obvious that he's not in the position to be the one having the flashback and frankly, I don't see how it matters.
What really matters is the flashback itself.
If Naruto was indeed talking about the loss of Sasuke, then why on earth would Sakura have a flashback to chapter 3 where Naruto asks her what she thinks of him?
They are totally unrelated.
It would make a lot more sense if a flashback of their memories together with Sasuke were the first things to appear in her mind, but this is not the case.
Sakura knows what kind of pain Naruto is talking about here, remembers the time where he asked her about her feelings, and how incredibly wrong she was about him back then.
I sorta agree with you that the flashback itself is more of a growth moment for Sakura.
A point were she truly realizes how badly she has treated Naruto in the past and, as she states herself, how he all the time was the one who truly understood her the most.
But I disagree with you saying that this is completely separate from Naruto's feelings, since it's exactly Naruto's feelings that put this flashback into action.



XXXTurkey said:


> I mean, even the promise itself is not solely for Sakura's sake.  It's also for his own sake.  He promises himself that he will get Sasuke back.  Proof?
> 
> When Naruto eventually meets Sasuke in part 2, what does Naruto say?  Chapter 307:
> 
> ...


Again, I disagree.
I believe that was a promise directed fully to Sakura, not himself or anyone else.
Because, like I've already reffered back to a dousin times by now, he still didn't believe at this point that Sasuke had truly left them.
So his only concern during the PoaLT was to once again comfort and reassure Sakura that he would bring Sasuke back to her no matter what.
If this was a promise that wasn't only directed towards Sakura, then how come Naruto thinks of her so much while chasing, and even while fighting Sasuke?
Chapter 209 I've already posted.
Then there's...


*Spoiler*: _Chapter 218_ 








I should also mention that each time he has a flashback about Sakura, it's the trigger that gets him going and keep on struggling again.
Of course he wants to get Sasuke back for himself, he's his best friend after all, but getting him back for Sakura's sake is equally important.
Because he loves her.
Also, I don't think PoaLT is related to that scene in chapter 307.
At all.



XXXTurkey said:


> So i guess that's why, when it is suggested that Naruto's promise to get Sasuke back is just for Sakura, i just don't buy it.  To do so is to completely devalue Naruto's friendship with Sasuke, which is pretty much the entire basis of this manga.  Naruto wants Sasuke back himself, as much as, if not more than, he is getting him back for Sakura.


See above.
Also, even though the main story of Naruto is indeed the bond between Naruto and Sasuke, that doesn't mean there isn't any place for any other bonds.
Like the bond between Naruto and the girl he's in love with.
So I don't see how making a promise to that girl in order to secure her happiness _(even if it means sacrificing some of his own)_ _"devalues"_ Naruto's friendship with Sasuke in any way.



XXXTurkey said:


> Furthermore, reducing Naruto's desire to get Sasuke back to a romantic gesture is proved wrong to a much greater degree later on in the manga.  If Naruto is getting back Sasuke "for" Sakura, letting her help devalues that gesture.


I don't see how.
It's not like he has much say in the matter anyway. 
And of course he's not bringing back Sasuke as a _"romantic gesture"_.
Naruto wants to bring back Sasuke for his own sake, of course, but also for Sakura.
Sakura wants to bring back Sasuke for her own sake, of course, but also for Naruto.
Naruto proves this very well during the PoaLT, and Sakura during the KN4 scene, with the whole _"I'll save Sasuke *for you*"_ thing.
This is one of the things I find so beautiful about their relationship.



XXXTurkey said:


> Unless, the actual reason is that the goal is to return Sasuke to the village and not win Sakura over.  The latter is obviously the case.


Haha, Naruto has no intentions to _"win Sakura over"_.
In fact, ever since the PoaLT he has pretty much stopped to seriously pursue her all together.
Because he believes her heart is still with Sasuke, and if he's the one she wants then Naruto is ready to aceept that, even though it so obviously hurts him.
Because he loves her. x 2
The reason they want Sasuke back is for the sake of all of their happiness.
Both for each other, for themselves, and for Sasuke.



XXXTurkey said:


> To be honest, in my eyes, the PoLT harms NaruSaku more than enhances it.


How come?



XXXTurkey said:


> I guess the point i am making is that the promise is not a romantic moment and i've tried to argue why i think that is.


And I've tried to argue why I think it is.



XXXTurkey said:


> Everything else that is being argued, i've already covered.  I could trawl through my previous posts and put them up but this post will probably get enough debate as it is.  I just can't believe people are still questioning Hinata's feelings...


Oh yes.
How could anyone possibly question Hinata's feelings?
They are obviously pure love grown from watching a person without having almost any type of interaction with him for... _oh wait._ 



*EDIT:* Fixed the broken picture links. (2/2)


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## XXXTurkey (May 7, 2009)

Forlong said:
			
		

> Couldn't that logically be taken as Sakura giving up on Sasuke? She acknowledged that Sasuke was closer to Naruto than to her.



No, she acknowledged Naruto was *another* close bond with Sasuke who had a chance of bringing him back.  The fact is, they all failed.  This is where i think NaruSasu ideas come from.  Not everything has to be black and white.  Sasuke can have bonds with Sakura and Naruto.  They're both strong bonds and so both have a chance of making him come back.

Sakura had already failed by this point.  Naruto still had to try, that is why Naruto was the "Only person who can probably save Sasuke-kun".

More importantly, how have you come up with the idea that Sakura had "given up" on Sasuke?  She wants him back and is crying about being unable to stop him.  What do you think she wants him back for?  Moreover, we have yet to get any proof in the *entire manga* that Sakura has given up on Sasuke.  It's one of the reasons i still can't understand NaruSaku.  I'll go with a similar line to *ButterflyGod*, i'm not nuts about SasuSaku myself, but there is clear romantic interest on Sakura's part that has never been revoked.  On the other hand, we have had Naruto acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> But isn't that developement of Sakura's feelings for Naruto? And I don't think Naruto was "giving up" on Sakura. I thought he was doing something to make her happy, even if he couldn't be. He still held onto his feelings for her. So that makes it a NaruSaku moment, doesn't it?



I'm confused, from your last comment and this one, are you suggesting that in the space of about a day Sakura gives up on Sasuke and falls in love with Naruto?  Sakura changes her stance on Naruto and thanks him.  What does she thank him for?  Understanding her feelings about *Sasuke* and trying to bring back *Sasuke*.  You keep ignoring the fact that Sasuke is a part of that scene.  Actually, the entire scene is about Sasuke.  Without him, what on earth are Lee, Shikamaru, Kiba and Neji doing there?

And i did say that his promise wasn't just for Sakura.  He wants to bring back Sasuke too.  He was going to get him back *before* Sakura turned up.  And assuming that everything would have gone the same way, do you think that Naruto would have just given up on Sasuke if he hadn't had that scene with Sakura?  I don't agree with that at all.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> Apparently the promise is still important to him. When Itachi used Genjutsu to make Naruto face his worst fears, he saw Sakura coming out of his stomach (wierd) and saying "I trusted you". Just to make sure you know, the Japanese believe the stomach is where the soul lives, and where your deepest fears reside. *So Naruto's worst fear is facing the fact that he didn't come through for Sakura*.



Yes, the "I trusted you" moment is an interesting one.  But this "Sakura fear" also mentions "Why didn't you stop Sasuke-kun", referencing the fact that Naruto still knows Sakura wants Sasuke back.  Put simply, Naruto's worst fear (by which i mean the worst thing she can say, since that's what that illusion was about) about Sakura is that she could bring up the fact he failed to return Sasuke.  It isn't, "I don't love you" or  "I will never love you" or "I will never go out with you" or anything to do with his supposed "love" for her.  If he does love her, wouldn't his worst fear in terms of Sakura be the idea of his love never being reciprocated?  Conclusion, Naruto doesn't love Sakura.  And once again, Sasuke has entered into the picture.

I would therefore have to rephrase your comment:

"So Naruto's worst fear *in terms of Sakura* is facing the fact that he didn't come through for Sakura *and get Sasuke back*.

The *"in terms of Sakura"* bit is important.  It's not his absolute worst fear.  That comment was the worst thing Sakura could say to him.  The *"and get Sasuke back"* part is self-explanatory.

Still, although i diagree with you, you have made some interesting points.  I really didn't know about that Japanese soul belief.  You really do learn something new every day...


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## izzyisozaki (May 7, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> No, she acknowledged Naruto was *another* close bond with Sasuke who had a chance of bringing him back.  The fact is, they all failed.  This is where i think NaruSasu ideas come from.  Not everything has to be black and white.  Sasuke can have bonds with Sakura and Naruto.  They're both strong bonds and so both have a chance of making him come back.
> 
> Sakura had already failed by this point.  Naruto still had to try, that is why Naruto was the "Only person who can probably save Sasuke-kun".



No. The point NaruSasu fans make is that half of the cast says so - not just Sakura 



> More importantly, how have you come up with the idea that Sakura had "given up" on Sasuke?  She wants him back and is crying about being unable to stop him.  What do you think she wants him back for?  Moreover, we have yet to get any proof in the *entire manga* that Sakura has given up on Sasuke.  It's one of the reasons i still can't understand NaruSaku.



It's cos there are two instances in the manga where she gives slack on Naruto's promise of bringing Sasuke-kun back 

Nadini had a point. People will ignore NaruSaku implications for the sake of even weaker reasoning.


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## mystic868 (May 7, 2009)

True love means not only to share feelings but also the power to sacrifice what you have most important for the sake of other person happiness. That's like Naruto behaved in hospital scene where Sakura gave Sasuke hug. He didn't say anything even that it hurt him. Her happiness is most important for him so he will put it before his own happiness also.


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## Forlong (May 7, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> No, she acknowledged Naruto was *another* close bond with Sasuke who had a chance of bringing him back.  The fact is, they all failed.  This is where i think NaruSasu ideas come from.  Not everything has to be black and white.  Sasuke can have bonds with Sakura and Naruto.  They're both strong bonds and so both have a chance of making him come back.


Don't misunderstand.  I was only...well...the question came to mind, and I just asked it.  I was only seeing if anyone had an explaination.  I didn't take the question to seriously, if that makes sense.

I'd say you're right.



XXXTurkey said:


> Yes, the "I trusted you" moment is an interesting one.  But this "Sakura fear" also mentions "Why didn't you stop Sasuke-kun", referencing the fact that Naruto still knows Sakura wants Sasuke back.  Put simply, Naruto's worst fear (by which i mean the worst thing she can say, since that's what that illusion was about) about Sakura is that she could bring up the fact he failed to return Sasuke.  It isn't, "I don't love you" or  "I will never love you" or "I will never go out with you" or anything to do with his supposed "love" for her.  If he does love her, wouldn't his worst fear in terms of Sakura be the idea of his love never being reciprocated?  Conclusion, Naruto doesn't love Sakura.  And once again, Sasuke has entered into the picture.
> 
> I would therefore have to rephrase your comment:
> 
> ...



Well, considering Naruto already accepted that Sakura prefered Sasuke over him, I don't think he's afriad of Sakura not returning his feelings.  Also, guys often feel that they have to ern a girl's love.  Hearing a girl say "you failed me" has a more profound effect on a guy than a girl saying "I don't love you".


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## Afalstein (May 7, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> True love means not only to share feelings but also the power to sacrifice what you have most important for the sake of other person happiness. That's like Naruto behaved in hospital scene where Sakura gave Sasuke hug. He didn't say anything even that it hurt him. Her happiness is most important for him so he will put it before his own happiness also.



A number of people have portrayed Naruto's quest to return Sasuke as "sacrificial."  While I can see where you're getting this idea, I just don't buy it.   I don't doubt he knows that bringing Sasuke back will restore Sakura's obsession with him, and on that level you could say he's being sacrificial, but I don't really think that's a big consideration.

1st of all, Naruto wants Sasuke back himself, not simply because it's a promise he made to Sakura, but because he himself has a bond with Sasuke.  He's already leaving when she comes up to him,and at that point he's largely thinking of why Sasuke left, not about what effect it will have at Sakura.

2nd, Naruto isn't really as sacrificial as he appears to be. He's definitely not above using Sasuke's absence as a time to get in with Sakura.  He's still asking her for dates, (which she still keeps rejecting).  Of course, you could say this is his way of trying to get Sakura to move on past Sasuke, but certainly he's never brought it up in that context, in fact he's never really talked with Sakura about whether she should look into other men.  

3rd.  The argument you're using implies that if Sakura ever did become interested in him, Naruto would drop the quest for Sasuke, as it would only bring up more pain for her (heartbreak and all that).  Quite frankly I don't see that happening.  He's devoted to bringing Sasuke back, simply because Sasuke is a friend of his.

Interestingly, every time someone asks Naruto why he is willing to go so far for Sasuke, he never says "because I made the promise of a lifetime." or "because of Sakura-chan,"  he always says, "because he's my friend."  And Naruto's not one to hide his feelings, especially where Sakura is concerned.  

Naruto definitely has his reasons for trying to get Sasuke back, but his promise to Sakura is definitely not the only, or even the most important, one.

EDIT


> No. The point NaruSasu fans make is that half of the cast says so - not just Sakura



Isn't that interesting?  And the reason they all say that is because they all know how good Naruto is at changing people.  Certainly that's Neji's perspective.  It's not only in terms of Naruto's bond with Sasuke, it's in terms of Naruto's very nature.  He changes people for the better.  That, in my mind, was the entire point of the Sasuke retrieval arc, and part of the reason why Gaara was brought in.  To show how Naruto had already changed some lives.


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## A. Waltz (May 7, 2009)

Naruto loves Sasuke too -__-" even if its brotherly. The whole "the only reason Naruto tries to bring Sasuke back is for Sakura" thing is just BS. He's bringing back Sasuke for himself too. Sure, Sakura's pain fuels him too, but she isn't the only reason to bringing him back.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 7, 2009)

I don't see why Naruto should go to the ends of the earth to demonstrate his romantic intentions towards Sakura are serious if no one gives a care about SasuNaru.


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 7, 2009)

@a few people 


Nobody said that Sakura was the only reason he would bring back Sasuke, that would be an idiotic notion no matter how you want to look at the situation..some people in here were merely saying, that you can't devalue the significance of his determination for one of the other just because of what he promised to do for one, that would be a discredit to Naruto either way.


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## Kaekoro (May 7, 2009)

My opinion on pairings can be summed down to this: Kishimoto has hinted about certain couples for years and has not acted on any but AsumaXKurenai... NaruHina, will appearing promising currently, is not guaranteed. I think we can all agree on this, until it's written and thus canon, it's up in the air.


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## mystic868 (May 8, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> A number of people have portrayed Naruto's quest to return Sasuke as "sacrificial."  While I can see where you're getting this idea, I just don't buy it.   I don't doubt he knows that bringing Sasuke back will restore Sakura's obsession with him, and on that level you could say he's being sacrificial, but I don't really think that's a big consideration.
> 
> 1st of all, Naruto wants Sasuke back himself, not simply because it's a promise he made to Sakura, but because he himself has a bond with Sasuke.  He's already leaving when she comes up to him,and at that point he's largely thinking of why Sasuke left, not about what effect it will have at Sakura.
> 
> ...



Well after Kakashi's fight episode Sakura agreed to Naruto's request about a date but he didn't have money to pay for them together(however after a while she was thinking that she could agree for a date even if he would pay only half of bill). So you shouldn't say that she was still rejecting him.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 8, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Well after Kakashi's fight episode Sakura agreed to Naruto's request about a date but he didn't have money to pay for them together(however after a while she was thinking that she could agree for a date even if he would pay only half of bill). So you shouldn't say that she was still rejecting him.



Sorry Mystic, but that's filler (and the anime team is biased towards NaruSaku, as they felt that was the direction Kishimoto was headed when they started Shippuden (remember, they started it post-KN4, which was the most pairing-based scene in Part 2 at the time). They don't know any more than we do... At least that I know of, I think I saw somewhere that they talked to Kishi about the latest filler arc, though.) , so you can't really go off of it. Just a friendly reminder, as manga facts can't be denied. Anime filler can.


----------



## mystic868 (May 8, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> Sorry Mystic, but that's filler (and the anime team is biased towards NaruSaku, as they felt that was the direction Kishimoto was headed when they started Shippuden (remember, they started it post-KN4, which was the most pairing-based scene in Part 2 at the time). They don't know any more than we do... At least that I know of, I think I saw somewhere that they talked to Kishi about the latest filler arc, though.) , so you can't really go off of it. Just a friendly reminder, as manga facts can't be denied. Anime filler can.



Unfortunately TwilightLink20xx it's NOT a filler:
Link removed
She agreed as I said.


----------



## Afalstein (May 8, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Well after Kakashi's fight episode Sakura agreed to Naruto's request about a date but he didn't have money to pay for them together(however after a while she was thinking that she could agree for a date even if he would pay only half of bill). So you shouldn't say that she was still rejecting him.



Well, the point I was making was that Naruto's not being as sacrificial as people say, as he's still asking Sakura out on dates.  But you're right, that's an interesting scene and I should examine it.

First, Naruto should know already that he's supposed to pay for a food, that's largely what distances a date from just general hanging out.  Given, he's never been on a date before, so it's not surprising, but it still shows that this isn't something he's thought out a lot.  To him, it's just been an idea, not something he's actually pictured as a reality,

Then Sakura.  Yes, she agrees on the condition that Naruto pay (Not surprising, as I said, that's standard).  But she doesn't seem very interested in the idea of a date, and definitely isn't sympathetic when she learns Naruto can't treat her.  True, she has a passing thought later that she maybe she should have taken him up on it, but then she orders another bowl.  It seems her main motivation was the free food, not getting to spend more time with Naruto (which would seem to be natural, they have some catching up to do).  So if you look at this scene, it shows maybe a growing tolerance of Naruto's character, but not much more.

EDIT:  After looking through the manga around then, I see that actually, Sakura's scene wasn't in the manga.  Drat, now I look like an idiot.  Well, she definitely isn't at the ramen shop later, so it doesn't seem like she was sympathetic.


----------



## mystic868 (May 8, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Well, the point I was making was that Naruto's not being as sacrificial as people say, as he's still asking Sakura out on dates.  But you're right, that's an interesting scene and I should examine it.
> 
> First, Naruto should know already that he's supposed to pay for a food, that's largely what distances a date from just general hanging out.  Given, he's never been on a date before, so it's not surprising, but it still shows that this isn't something he's thought out a lot.  To him, it's just been an idea, not something he's actually pictured as a reality,
> 
> ...



Well interpretation of this scene is different depending on people own feelings for it. IMO it was mix of her feelings for him(how he has changed since 2,5 years - she was impressed after all) and maybe she also wanted to talk more after this long break. And motivation for free food can also be added 
But after all it's a good proof that she wasn't rejecting him all the time


----------



## JERITROLL (May 9, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Unfortunately TwilightLink20xx it's NOT a filler:
> link 6
> She agreed as I said.



Hey, I'm on your side! And no, that's not the part I was talking about. Yes, she agreed, that part is indeed cannon.



> (however after a while she was thinking that she could agree for a date even if he would pay only half of bill)



This, unfortunately, isn't. That whole half-bill part was filler.


----------



## mystic868 (May 9, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> Hey, I'm on your side! And no, that's not the part I was talking about. Yes, she agreed, that part is indeed cannon.
> 
> 
> 
> This, unfortunately, isn't. That whole half-bill part was filler.


Ok sorry  
But even if the second part was a filler it doesn't change the fact that she agreed. And so many NH fans are talking that Sakura was still rejecting Naruto...well I guess that this argument is not up to date anymore


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## Inuhanyou (May 9, 2009)

The entire point is guys, that date requests don't matter in the overall scheme of things.


----------



## Peter (May 9, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> The entire point is guys, that date requests don't matter in the overall scheme of things.



Inu's right, the dates are for comedic relief, which is a big part of NaruSaku. 
I think Kishi's just trying to make the pairing more obvious with the date requests and Sakura excepting them. 

It's not the big picture.


----------



## mystic868 (May 9, 2009)

Peter said:


> Inu's right, the dates are for comedic relief, which is a big part of NaruSaku.
> I think Kishi's just trying to make the pairing more obvious with the date requests and Sakura excepting them.
> 
> It's not the big picture.



Same may goes for punching poor Naruto


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 10, 2009)

It's been awhile since it's been brought up so I'm going to write why I think SasuSaku should happen and is in fact a very promising pairing. Both Sasuke and Sakura have been yielded from any major interaction during Part 2, and I think this is a gap that Kishimoto will naturally fill esp with the possible advent of NaruHina. Naruto and Sakura have failed to bond in a serious romantic manner during Sasuke's absence, and I have a feeling this is definitely because Sakura is holding onto to Sasuke and Naruto feels as if he can't interfere possibly due to the fact he isn't all that interested in her in that sense, esp after what he saw in the hospital scene. Nothing truly explicit has happened that doesn't make sense for their shattered team. He could renounce to her easily in consideration of her feelings for Sasuke, which are a determining factor to her pursuit as shown by subtlely hinted instances despite her preoccupation for Naruto. The ambiguity has not contradicted SasuSaku effectively. She could never see Sasuke as a mere friend with all the implications there's been between them and he has that conception of her as well. If he gets to come back he will feel like he lost something which he came to appreciate despite their rough beginning and could have had, making him even more unhappy. Sasuke could find special relief with the type of caring, utterly devoted love Sakura has offered cos she doesn't stir his defences as much, unlike Naruto does who gets major response only in violently dramatic situations. Sakura's lack of understanding of him is what will make him open to her and this is what's so positive about the pairing; Sasuke needs to learn how let someone in that has nothing to do with getting stronger, and she mature emotionally under his influence. She evidently became someone that took this role of support to him and that is why he has high possibility of coming to love her. Sakura showed desperate concern for him and this is one of the reasons her love for him considerable. The fact she claimed she'd leave everything behind proves how serious she was, and how she saw the latter at his worst she proved to see past that. This culminates esp in the scene where she stops his curseseal. She flashbacks the softer side she sees of Sasuke, saying that's not the Sasuke she knows [or obviously loves].  This is why her imperfections so rooted in the romantic context just make the pairing more worthy. She acknowledges in the FoD that though she constantly claims to like Sasuke and be superior to Naruto, she is in fact always behind.  She wants to stand in front, demonstrating that while she matures with such struggles, her feelings for Sasuke remain unchanged. He has been set as her clear goal since Part 1 and her maturity in relation to Naruto just enforces why it should happen. For this reason Ino is reminded of the time Sakura broke their friendship over their rivalry for Sasuke.  Sakura wanted to earn him with her very own strength without Ino giving her any mercy. For a similar reason she doesn't want Naruto risking to save Sasuke; she wants to do it instead. Her way of keeping such goal doesn't always seem evident but that is mainly due to the fact Naruto is the protagonist and gets primary focus. One doesn't need much more when it comes to establishing how she feels for Sasuke in comparison to Naruto.

Everything really leads to this pairing with its sense of tragedy, so it can ultimately wrap up Sasuke's character in a highly positive way.

**


----------



## Temp_Position (May 10, 2009)

^ I agree. I think this logic can apply to NaruHina as well. It seems that Sakura is like Hinata in this sense. They are both so in love with the guys they like that you never see them flirt with someone else or accept anyone elses romantic advances. They never give up on the love they feel for them and they wouldn't want another person to fill that spot. Its like Naruto's dream and Sasuke's revenge. No one can deter them from liking the guy they love. Just like nothing can deter Naruto from being Hokage and Sasuke from getting his revenge. 

Mini rant. Personal views on the romance in this manga.Dont read if you dont want too: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 I understand the concept, I think sasusaku and naruhina can work because of this and can happen, but I personally dont like it. I dont even see the chemistry. Unlike working for your dream career, finding your dream job requires more than a resume full of undying love. It also requires a mutual attraction. I cant believe in these pairings until i see something promising, like MUTUAL passion, understanding, respect and acknowledgement.  Even more important, what do the guys think? There isnt even ANY subtle hints about what the guys feel for the girls (naruto for hinata and sasuke for sakura). This is why Kishi sensei sucks at romance. He's trying to equate finding love to finding a career. In real life, its not like that at all. You cant win a persons heart over if they dont feel a connection. If thats the case, the best you can do with a resume of undying love is be a platonic friend until you find someone who feel the way you do. Love isnt something anyone should work hard for. In real life, people would call the girls pathetic. I've never seen anyone pine over a guy that doesnt even think about them and get any good results. I dont believe that you can make someone love you just because you love them, but thats my personal opinion on love. But, these pairings can definitely happen. This mini rant isnt apart of my arguement for the reason that....Reality is stranger than fiction and this is fantasy.


----------



## DarkFlameDragon (May 10, 2009)

well...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Okay Hinata confessed her love to Naruto, what makes us think that Naruto will foget Sakura who loves Naruto and suddenly love Hinata?.


----------



## Afalstein (May 10, 2009)

DarkFlameDragon said:


> well...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Well, part of the main argument going on here is whether Sakura really does love Naruto, or if she merely has a fondness for him.  Or if she even knows herself.  You could argue a number of scenes that show a gradual awakening of senses toward Naruto, but nothing that fully shows an acknowledged love, especially considering how she acted toward Sasuke.  Even if she is starting to love Naruto, she might not know it herself.

And more to the point, if she does, Naruto has not been acquainted with this.  So far as he knows, Sakura still views him as a teammate, nothing more.  So it's not really a matter of "forgetting" about her.


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## Forlong (May 10, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Naruto and Sakura have failed to bond in a serious romantic manner during Sasuke's absence, and I have a feeling this is definitely because Sakura is holding onto to Sasuke and Naruto feels as if he can't interfere possibly due to the fact he isn't all that interested in her in that sense, esp after what he saw in the hospital scene.


Naruto and Hinata have failed to bond romantically, so have Sasuke and Sakura.  Why does that suddenly matter for NaruSaku?



izzyisozaki said:


> She could never see Sasuke as a mere friend with all the implications there's been between them and he has that conception of her as well. If he gets to come back he will feel like he lost something which he came to appreciate despite their rough beginning and could have had, making him even more unhappy. Sasuke could find special relief with the type of caring, utterly devoted love Sakura has offered cos she doesn't stir his defences as much, unlike Naruto does who gets major response only in violently dramatic situations.


Are you saying that Sasuke should have Sakura when he returns just "because"?  I think it will help him grow, if he realises that the girl that crushed on him while they were young has moved on.  It would help if he paid for being such an ass.


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## izzyisozaki (May 10, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Naruto and Hinata have failed to bond romantically, so have Sasuke and Sakura.  Why does that suddenly matter for NaruSaku?



Cos those two other pairings haven't had the opportunity to interact accordingly.



> Are you saying that Sasuke should have Sakura when he returns just "because"?  I think it will help him grow, if he realises that the girl that crushed on him while they were young has moved on.  It would help if he paid for being such an ass.


Love isn't given on a deserved basis and by then he should have realized his mistakes


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## Kathutet (May 10, 2009)

*I AM NOT BIASED.*



Forlong said:


> Naruto and Hinata have failed to bond romantically, so have Sasuke and Sakura.  Why does that suddenly matter for NaruSaku?
> 
> 
> Are you saying that Sasuke should have Sakura when he returns just "because"?  I think it will help him grow, if he realises that the girl that crushed on him while they were young has moved on.  It would help if he paid for being such an ass.


Because they have conversations on a daily basis? Hinata talking with Naruto normally every day would be a shocking sight for me.

However, I believe that this is true. Sakura is very much in love with Sasuke because she likes him a lot and this has been 100% prooven in one of the very first chaptorz.

It would help if he payed for being such an ass? Well, this is a shounen and shounen doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. =/

Lol sorry, just adding my two cents durr.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 10, 2009)

AznUchihaChick said:


> If you "NaruSaku" fans think Kishi DID NOT waste his time in Part One with developing the characters and how Sasuke left and about Naruto, then what gives you any right or reason to even consider that the mutual and romantic action, feelings, and relationships where for nothing?



You're right, just learn to discern where the development has taken place.

Also, thankfully you were banned before I followed in suit.


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## M4verick (May 10, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Um scuse me but wut does a dead guy have 2 do with hinatas pure loving feelings for naruto, shes not even apart of tht team so u cant say tht its the same thing. also that was like 300 chapters ago it not gonna be the same
> thing now. plus lol u just ruined urself ur tryin to compare naruto wit obito but kakashi the 1 who in love with rin an sasuke similar 2 kakashi so sasuke gonna be with sakure and do wut kakash didnt do.



ROFL, do you even understand what you typed?  I sure as heck don't.  Clear it up, and I will be happy to give a response.



Inuhanyou said:


> y dont u start givin me sum proof insted of just sayin tht, im waitin oh wait u cant right cuz theres NONE



I have given plenty of proof in previous posts, as well as many others in this thread.  If you don't see any proof, than thats on you.  Also, take your own advice and give proof of all your alleged claims.


Inuhanyou said:


> now ur just bein biased cuz hinata has loveing type feelins for naruto n sed so along time ago sakura never said nothin about no feelins for naruto so which 1 of us is the real answer the 1 who always suported naruto no matter wut and loved him for him or the 1 who wanna control his life abuse him an hit him and made fun of him without even sayin sorry yea thts right its obvious yea?



Now who's making the comparison from 300 chapters ago.  Way to contradict your self in one post.  Give yourself a pat on the back.

Hinata may have loved him from the beginning, but she definitely didn't support him except for one time.  That support came when he already defeated Kiba and was acknowledged by everyone in the room watching.  Where was she when he really needed the support?  Behind a tree? Staring at his misfortune with out lending a hand or saying a word.  

The last time I will say this... Sakura hits Naruto for comic relief.  Thats it.  If you can't comprehend that, I can't help you.

Hinata just simply watched Naruto which manifested into love for him.  Than she was verbal about it, amiright?  Sakura actually shows her love for Naruto through her actions which is obvious for characters in the manga to see.  Too bad some of the people reading the manga can't see it...

1. Yamato
2. Just so you can understand what I'm hinting at in #3.
3.1 Ino + Sasuke
3.2 (and in part 1 too)
4. Sai


Inuhanyou said:


> ok an for bein 1 sided its pretty "up and down *love story*" isnt it  it wuldent be a good story if naruto fall in lov wit hinata rite at the beginnin witch he prolly woulda if he knew about hinatas feelins, thats BUILDIN DEVELOPMENT now he love her its gonna start wen they talk again..an thts the truth.



Wouldn't even be possible since Hinata was not even introduced or shown in the beginning.  Also, Naruto found out this, and Hinata told him this, it really didn't change anything in there relationship past an acquaintance after he beat Neji.  Well, from Naruto's side of the relationship that is.

"now he love her its gonna start wen they talk again..an thts the truth fanfic."


----------



## Kaekoro (May 10, 2009)

M4verick said:


> ROFL, do you even understand what you typed?  I sure as heck don't.  Clear it up, and I will be able to give a response.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Best post ever.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 10, 2009)

> Sakura actually *shows her love for Naruto through her actions which is obvious for characters in the manga to see*. Too bad some of the people reading the manga can't see it...
> 
> 1. Yamato
> 2. Just so you can understand what I'm hinting at in #3.
> ...


Ok. I have _no idea_ what Sakura not telling Naruto what happened to her hair* and so forth has to do with her so-called love towards him. Ino remarked on how Sakura was hiding her feelings cos the latter was grateful how they had saved her team. It has nothing to do with Sakura --> Naruto. You either are joking or pulling unnecessary panels out of no where cos other straw-graspers tend to do it. 'Best post ever' yeah right. *Sai* remarking about Sakura being kind to Naruto does not prove she has special god-knows-what towards him that isn't friendship. It indicates how she is being defensive of Naruto for feelings Sai does not understand, and probably that she isn't losing her composure due to the fact the penis-lover insulted Prince Sasuke's honor. So yeah, great proof...I wonder why such subtle shit never works when Sai is applied to Sasuke and Naruto. Oh yeah cos it's brotherhood. While NaruSaku is evident romance and not friendship  Not telling someone something troublesome that happened means you love them.... God, I don't want to even imagine what validity other ships would love to claim with that.



> ROFL, do you even understand what you typed?  I sure as heck don't.  Clear it up, and I will be happy to give a response.


Let me tell you a thing about this debate thread. There are 3-4 people who will use sarcasm or reverse psychology cos it's just that lame here. Three have already posted on this page. Good luck finding who they are. Clue: They usually type RLY badly.


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## M4verick (May 11, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Ok. I have _no idea_ what Sakura not telling Naruto what happened to her hair* and so forth has to do with her so-called love towards him. Ino remarked on how Sakura was hiding her feelings cos the latter was grateful how they had saved her team. It has nothing to do with Sakura --> Naruto. You either are joking or pulling unnecessary panels out of no where cos other straw-graspers tend to do it.



Wow, you seem really sure of your self.  Please show evidence how I'm wrong so we no your not just shooting hot air.

I'm not straw grasping anything.  Since your so fixated on your own opinions, your not even giving your mind a chance to comprehend what I'm trying to say.  If it was all so simple.  Why in the world would Ino and Sasuke have a shocked expression after Sakura gave Naruto the lie?



izzyisozaki said:


> *Sai* remarking about Sakura being kind to Naruto does not prove she has special god-knows-what towards him that isn't friendship. It indicates how she is being defensive of Naruto for feelings Sai does not understand, and probably that she isn't losing her composure due to the fact the penis-lover insulted Prince Sasuke's honor. So yeah, great proof...




And there is nothing to indicate its just friendship either.  See what I did there... Pretty easy to rationalize everything w/o evidence now isn't it.  

Hmm, so gentle translates to defensive huh? Interesting.

If you notice(some how I doubt you do)every time Sakura's feelings are close to being put out there, Kishi interrupts so it wont take a way from that powerful moment when it will all come together.  This was another one of those moments.  Call it whatever you want, but it will not change what it is.

About her not loosing her temper.  I could flip that so easy.  Maybe more of the fact, while he insulted Sasuke, she had her hands pressed to her chest more concerned about Naruto than the promise she gave to Sai earlier.
So yea, great rationalization... Stop bashing my evidence and show some of your own.  



izzyisozaki said:


> I wonder why such subtle shit never works when Sai is applied to Sasuke and Naruto. Oh yeah cos it's brotherhood. While NaruSaku is evident romance and not friendship  Not telling someone something troublesome that happened means you love them.... God, I don't want to even imagine what validity other ships would love to claim with that.


Thats an easy question to answer... Naruto is not gonna hook up with Sasuke.  Its not gonna happen, sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't sugar coat things.  
1.1. Naruto looks at Sasuke as a brother...
1.2  Its official
1.3  Sakura confirms in for us in Part 2

It's not people on the forums brushing it off as brotherly, its Kishimoto.  The writer of this manga.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 11, 2009)

M4verick said:


> It's not people on the forums brushing it off as brotherly, its Kishimoto.  The writer of this manga.



Huh?

I think a simple 'That's gay' would suffice. 

Take your eyes off the panel for a second and look at the real world. Homosexuality is an anomaly. It will always be a minority. 

I understand all that effort was put in to be courteous and perhaps as an excuse to justify your views, however, is this really necessary? Whether or not the poster is of homosexual orientation matters not to disillusionment. We should all be treated equally regardless.

Understand NaruSasu simply won't happen. Why? Cause life sucks, all you can do is think of the positives, and not the HIV ones I might add. (If you take proper care and protection into consideration)

 Point is, at least you're not ga- black.


----------



## Kathutet (May 11, 2009)

M4verick said:


> 1.1. Naruto looks at Sasuke as a brother...
> 1.2  Its official
> 1.3  Sakura confirms in for us in Part 2


Did you happen to miss the meaning of 'I WONDER IF', which implies that the character does not know what those feelings are?

So you think that other character's interpretation is completely valid? That reminds me of Doctor Love, AKA Yamato.

I bet Sakura must be saying 'Lover turning I?' on a daily basis.


----------



## Nadini (May 11, 2009)

I still think Hinata deserves Naruto


----------



## M4verick (May 11, 2009)

Kenneth said:


> Did you happen to miss the meaning of 'I WONDER IF', which implies that the character does not know what those feelings are?
> 
> So you think that other character's interpretation is completely valid? That reminds me of Doctor Love, AKA Yamato.
> 
> I bet Sakura must be saying 'Lover turning I?' on a daily basis.



Interesting justification, yet, really changes nothing.

Do I think other character's interpretation is completely valid? Yes, you wanna know why?  Its still Kishi writing it.


----------



## Kathutet (May 11, 2009)

nadini said:


> I still think Hinata deserves Naruto


More than anyone else. 


M4verick said:


> Interesting justification, yet, really changes nothing.
> 
> Do I think other character's interpretation is completely valid? Yes, you wanna know why?  Its still Kishi writing it.


I believe it does. You can't say someone makes you think of your brother or that you think of him as such when you never experienced the feeling.

Oh, then this means that every pairing is canon. Kishi wrote every moment and every interpretation of every character.


----------



## M4verick (May 11, 2009)

nadini said:


> I still think Hinata deserves Naruto


Not really, but whatever.  Nice spam.


Kenneth said:


> I believe it does. You can't say someone makes you think of your brother or that you think of him as such when you never experienced the feeling.



Well, he did, so the argument is irrelevant.



Kenneth said:


> Oh, then this means that every pairing is canon. Kishi wrote every moment and every interpretation of every character.



Now your taking it out of context for the sake of your argument.  When Kishi makes it obvious that its cannon, than it will cannon.  Kishi wrote that Naruto see's Sasuke as a brother.  Thats cannon, no matter what way you look at it.


----------



## Kathutet (May 11, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Not really, but whatever.  Nice spam.
> 
> 
> Well, he did, so the argument is irrelevant.
> ...


Who, Naruto? A brother? I'd love to see the panel.

Hey, isn't that what we're supposed to do here?
Besides, I am detecting a double standard here. Kishi never said anything about Naruto loving Sakura or Hinata, nor did he do so for Sasuke and Sakura. So I am allowed to speculate and take things "out of context" as much as I want to.


----------



## M4verick (May 11, 2009)

Kenneth said:


> Who, Naruto? A brother? I'd love to see the panel.
> 
> Hey, isn't that what we're supposed to do here?
> Besides, I am detecting a double standard here. Kishi never said anything about Naruto loving Sakura or Hinata, nor did he do so for Sasuke and Sakura. *So I am allowed to speculate and take things "out of context" as much as I want to. *



Its your prerogative, do what you want.  My original response was directed to the guy that tried to dismiss my original post for the sake of his unlikely pairing.

I'm not giving a double standard.  There is no relationship that's cannon right now, nor have I said there was.  I do feel that one has a exponentially higher probability than the others from the development and clues that Kishi has given us.

My apologies if I have offended you.


----------



## Kathutet (May 11, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Its your prerogative, do what you want.  My original response was directed to the guy that tried to dismiss my original post for the sake of his unlikely pairing.
> 
> I'm not giving a double standard.  There is no relationship that's cannon right now, nor have I said there was.  I do feel that one has a higher probability than the others from the development and clues that he has given us.
> 
> My apologies if I have offended you.


No problem. I lean towards NaruSaku, but I'll need more to convince me. The most likely pairing to happen is indeed NaruSaku.

 For people who don't believe this and lean towards another pairing; lolno it's one-sided. Give up. 

'Kay, I'm off. Cya around Mav.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 11, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Wow, you seem really sure of your self.  Please show evidence how I'm wrong so we no your not just shooting hot air.



I just was telling you why it wasn't considerable. It's not hard to tell when someone is making what is obviously an assumption without much to support it.



> I'm not straw grasping anything.  Since your so fixated on your own opinions, your not even giving your mind a chance to comprehend what I'm trying to say.  If it was all so simple.  Why in the world would Ino and Sasuke have a shocked expression after Sakura gave Naruto the lie?


I did get what you said  and I disagree. Ino and Sasuke do not have "shocked" expressions. They are "in the know" and have those dot bubbles. Why? Cos Sakura was beaten up and went through a lot of shit in that earlier scene. So when Sakura is brushing it off they will show knowing expressions compared in contrast to those who are totally clueless to what she is saying.



> And there is nothing to indicate its just friendship either.  See what I did there... Pretty easy to rationalize everything w/o evidence now isn't it.


Debate thread is debateable, but there is still what has more likelihood or sense.



> Hmm, so gentle translates to defensive huh? Interesting.


Oh, cos she isn't defensive of Naruto now ? Please show which scene you define as _gentle_ to Naruto that Sai was referring to.



> If you notice(some how I doubt you do)every time Sakura's feelings are close to being put out there, Kishi interrupts so it wont take a way from that powerful moment when it will all come together.  This was another one of those moments.  Call it whatever you want, but it will not change what it is.


Please list those "other" moments  Right now I can only think of the Yamato scene.

On the other hand the most mutual moments have a lot to do with Sasuke, and that's pretty telling.



> About her not loosing her temper.  I could flip that so easy.  Maybe more of the fact, while he insulted Sasuke, she had her hands pressed to her chest more concerned about Naruto than the promise she gave to Sai earlier.
> So yea, great rationalization... Stop bashing my evidence and show some of your own.


Hold your horses. Just because I bring a notion that supports Sakura--> Naruto while I disagree with your evidence doesn't mean I'm not providing any. You can't tell me "GIVE ME EVIDENCE!11" when in fact I'm telling you to give me something that actually can be taken in serious consideration. I can debate for NaruSaku just as much.



> Thats an easy question to answer... Naruto is not gonna hook up with Sasuke.  Its not gonna happen, sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't sugar coat things.


What the fuck does does the fact Sai is learning about friendship and therefore cannot be good romantic evidence have to do with NaruSasu in context ? I don't need your sugar coating honey.



> 1.1. Naruto looks at Sasuke as a brother...


God I love this one 


> 1.2  Its official


Yeah. And Iruka is EXACTLY like a father to Naruto eh? Plus it was an interrogation. Very convincing indeed considering Naruto's extremely questionable behavior 



> 1.3  Sakura confirms in for us in Part 2


Yeah. Sakura _really knows _everything between them [lol yeah, we didn't even know before the VotE!] when she spent most of Part 1 absorbed in her love for Sasuke-kun and in Part 2 continues to observe their relationship in amazement. There are panels and scenes supporting such notion that show up in key occasions and I don't even need to fish for them.



> It's not people on the forums brushing it off as brotherly, its Kishimoto.  The writer of this manga.


Like a friend of mine who used to hate SasuNaru told me, how convenient is it that Sasuke and Naruto are just brothers? Yeah...very convenient! I have no reason to take in consideration your _opinion_ over mine when in fact I just look at the evidence. Don't care if it's not happening. Sasuke never acknowledged Naruto as a brother, nor was it the answer to his question in the VotE Therefore please knock it off with the SasuNaru, cos I will answer whatever bullshit notions [my opinion, of course] I hear whether they regard the Big 3 or not.


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## M4verick (May 11, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> I just was telling you why it wasn't considerable. It's not hard to tell when someone is making what is obviously an assumption without much to support it.
> 
> I did get what you said  and I disagree. Ino and Sasuke do not have "shocked" expressions. They are "in the know" and have those dot bubbles. Why? Cos Sakura was beaten up and went through a lot of shit in that earlier scene. So when Sakura is brushing it off they will show knowing expressions compared in contrast to those who are totally clueless to what she is saying.
> 
> ...



Nice, I'm really not inclined to respond to your hypocritical statements asking me to give evidence.  When all the evidence you show is, Sasuke never responded back with seeing Naruto as a brother?  With most of your arguments, you could actually re-read my post you linked, and have your answers.  

But hey, I will humor you.  Here is simple evidence.  Sakura being more concerned about Naruto than continuing pursuit of Sasuke.  As close as they may be to Sasuke, and this has been there only true lead in a long time, she was more concerned about Naruto.  If your familiar with SakuSasu's history, there is no need for to me to go in more detail.

Than you see her conflicting battle within of her old feelings for Sasuke, and her continually growing feelings for Naruto.

When I link manga, and all you come back with is your "off" interpretations of those scenes with out linking your own evidence is a pointless debate.  I would continue to link pages, you would continue to only see your interpretations, and become more vulgar to think it will make your post more accurate, making the whole argument futile.  Holla at me when you can bring a better argument than "Sasuke never acknowledged Naruto as a brother, nor was it the answer to his question in the VotE ".
Sasuke not responding likewise is irrelevant.  Naruto's see's Sasuke as his brother, not lover.

If you want, I will show plenty of evidence pointing at the NaruSaku pairing, if you do the same for your pairing.  I will not take so much time to do so, to only have them easily dismissed by someone's own interpretation that may not stay consistent with the manga.


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## izzyisozaki (May 11, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Nice, I'm really not inclined to respond to your hypocritical statements asking me to give evidence.  When all the evidence you show is, Sasuke never responded back with seeing Naruto as a brother?  With most of your arguments, you could actually re-read my post you linked, and have your answers.



Hypocritical what? I just said there is nothing directly supporting those scenes as evidence for romance. The Sai one can pass, but the ones in the FoD are just speculation. I don't NEED to provide any more evidence than an explanation of the scene's context.



> But hey, I will humor you.  Here is simple evidence.  Sakura being more concerned about Naruto than continuing pursuit of Sasuke.  As close as they may be to Sasuke, and this has been there only true lead in a long time, she was more concerned about Naruto.  If your familiar with SakuSasu's history, there is no need for to me to go in more detail.


Who denied that ?? Doesn't mean she loves Naruto romantically.



> Than you see her conflicting battle within of her old feelings for Sasuke, and her continually growing feelings for Naruto.


Conflicting what ? It was about Teamwork and what to do for their mission. Yeah her feelings for Naruto are emphasized and there is conflict, but that scene itself doesn't necessarily evaluate their romantic value. It is a questionable scene, however.



> When I link manga, and all you come back with is your "off" interpretations of those scenes with out linking your own evidence is a pointless debate.


It's about using _those_ scenes. Explained context IS possible evidence against them. Stop assuming things about what I'm trying to argue. I don't give a flying rat's ass about the Big 3, just the evidence that's used for them and in relation to the others.



> I would continue to link pages, you would continue to only see your interpretations, and become more vulgar to think it will make your post more accurate, making the whole argument futile.  Holla at me when you can bring a better argument than "Sasuke never acknowledged Naruto as a brother, nor was it the answer to his question in the VotE ".
> Sasuke not responding likewise is irrelevant.  Naruto's see's Sasuke as his brother, not lover.


This IS not about _SasuNaru is romance_ here. This is about what most evidence shows. And most evidence shows that Sasuke does NOT acknowledge Naruto as a brother. Sasuke contradicted what Sakura told Sai about the brother thing.

*Spoiler*: __ 









> If you want, I will show plenty of evidence pointing at the NaruSaku pairing, if you do the same for your pairing.  I will not take so much time to do so, to only have them easily dismissed by someone's own interpretation that may not stay consistent with the manga.


As much as I'd like to I CANNOT debate SasuNaru as a _pairing_ with you here. The point is that you think there are implications despite Sakura's feelings being labelled as "friendship", right? Well yeah, same goes for Sasuke and Naruto. Their behavior can have implications that go beyond what is clichèd, being already expressed in a very arguable way like I showed you a bit. Like helk I can write you a SasuNaru manifesto here, so I suggest you drop the idea that I'm debating it against NaruSaku because I argue context


----------



## mystic868 (May 11, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Wow, you seem really sure of your self.  Please show evidence how I'm wrong so we no your not just shooting hot air.
> 
> I'm not straw grasping anything.  Since your so fixated on your own opinions, your not even giving your mind a chance to comprehend what I'm trying to say.  If it was all so simple.  Why in the world would Ino and Sasuke have a shocked expression after Sakura gave Naruto the lie?
> 
> ...



That's true that NS is hard to understand for much people. It's pretty not straight - forward, unclearly and hard to read in most of romantic moments which occured during it's panel time. However if we will look carefully we will see that Sakura really started to care about Naruto more and more and that care is still increasing despite of Sakura inner problems, Hinata confession etc. As it was said by Sai she's really gentle about Naruto. I know that anime is not cannon however it was also said by Sai that "She's always upset when it comes to Naruto". He joined lately to Kakashi's Team and as a newcomer he can see that their mutual relations are not only friendly but sth more. And I can fully agree that punching was done to make story more funny(maybe for exchange of Inner Sakura-I really miss it).


----------



## M4verick (May 11, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Hypocritical what? I just said there is nothing directly supporting those scenes as evidence for romance. The Sai one can pass, but the ones in the FoD are just speculation. I don't NEED to provide any more evidence than an explanation of the scene's context.
> 
> Who denied that ?? Doesn't mean she loves Naruto romantically.
> 
> ...



The only thing I will argue, is the only evidence you brought to the table.  Your other weak rationalizations are pointless for me to respond to.   Also, I never said Sasuke views Naruto as a brother so I have no idea why you keep stating it.  And you can write as much NaruSasu manifestos as you want, but it will not change the fact that Naruto looks at Sasuke as a brother.  Although Sasuke does not view Naruto as a brother, he did view him as a best friend, since thats why he wanted to kill him, but chose not to.


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## M4verick (May 11, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> That's true that NS is hard to understand for much people. It's pretty not straight - forward, unclearly and hard to read in most of romantic moments which occured during it's panel time. However if we will look carefully we will see that Sakura really started to care about Naruto more and more and that care is still increasing despite of Sakura inner problems, Hinata confession etc. As it was said by Sai she's really gentle about Naruto. I know that anime is not cannon however it was also said by Sai that "She's always upset when it comes to Naruto". He joined lately to Kakashi's Team and as a newcomer he can see that their mutual relations are not only friendly but sth more. And I can fully agree that punching was done to make story more funny(maybe for exchange of Inner Sakura-I really miss it).



No offense but, why are you telling me this?  I'm a NaruSaku supporter.

EDIT//

Seriously, I'm not trying to be jerk, I'm just trying to figure out who your supporting.  NaruSaku, or NaruSasu.  I think I misread your post the first time, but I'm not positive.  

I have a headache, so my bad.


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## izzyisozaki (May 11, 2009)

Okay, you can't counter and you continue to try debating SasuNaru with me, so I won't reply to you either . Too bad that whatever Naruto considers Sasuke as, Sasuke is his important person according to Gaara; thus surpassing NaruSaku anyway.


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## M4verick (May 11, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Okay, you can't counter and you continue to try debating SasuNaru with me, so I won't reply to you either . Too bad that whatever Naruto considers Sasuke as, Sasuke is his important person according to Gaara; thus surpassing NaruSaku anyway.



Lol, counter what.  Your only counter arguments are "doesn't mean its romantic".  Even if Sakura did say I love you, you would probably say she means platonic. 

Also, I linked 3 different pages that shows Naruto viewing Sasuke as a brother, but you still want to think the relationship is romantic or will escalate to romance.  So regardless of what is said in the manga, your gonna hold on to your own fantasy.  So whatever, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.


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## Afalstein (May 11, 2009)

Um, interesting as this is and all, the thread says "Official NaruSaku/SasuSaku/NaruHina Debate thread."  Doesn't mention NaruSasu.  And actually, I think the rules for this particular thread stipulate that discussions of other pairings, including NaruSasu, are forbidden.  I'm sure it's interesting, but this isn't really the place for it.


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## Kaekoro (May 11, 2009)

I fail to see the reason to debate, the only thing both NaruSaku and NaruHina have going for them are one-sided loves...Hinata loves Naruto and Naruto loves Sakura. NaruHina does NOT have more validity than NaruSaku as Naruto does not love Hinata at this current point of time.


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## Forlong (May 11, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> On the other hand the most mutual moments have a lot to do with Sasuke, and that's pretty telling.


I fail to see the problem with that.



izzyisozaki said:


> Like a friend of mine who used to hate SasuNaru told me, how convenient is it that Sasuke and Naruto are just brothers? Yeah...very convenient! I have no reason to take in consideration your _opinion_ over mine when in fact I just look at the evidence.


So guys can't care about each other without being gay?

ZARU!



izzyisozaki said:


> Who denied that ?? Doesn't mean she loves Naruto romantically.


She's showing that she cares more for Naruto than the guy she said "I love you" to.  Gee...what could that mean?


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## Inuhanyou (May 11, 2009)

Firstly, I think everyone should take a step back and have a breather for a minute, the attitude level seems to be over nine thousand...secondly this is a debate thread for debating, there's no point in questioning the reason for debate, and its explained in the rules as being off topic.

As far as pairings go, none are confirmed yet, NaruSaku has a distinct possibility of already being more than one sided. NaruHina and SasuSaku at this point and time are still one sided, and unless something drastic happens in the next few chapters, it'll continue to stay that way. 

Now...the reason i can say this is because, while NaruHina and SasuSaku lack mutual development in most shapes or forms, Naruto and Sakura have spent time together, and also have grown much closer then they were just starting out or probably even at the end of part 1 as well. Unless we see Sasuke paying more attention to Sakura whenever it is that they meet up again, or Naruto for Hinata these two pairings are at a disadvantage when looking at the possibilities based on what's happened so far.


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## Afalstein (May 11, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Firstly, I think everyone should take a step back and have a breather for a minute, the attitude level seems to be over nine thousand...secondly this is a debate thread for debating, there's no point in questioning the reason for debate, and its explained in the rules as being off topic.
> 
> As far as pairings go, none are confirmed yet, NaruSaku has a distinct possibility of already being more than one sided. NaruHina and SasuSaku at this point and time are still one sided, and unless something drastic happens in the next few chapters, it'll continue to stay that way.
> 
> Now...the reason i can say this is because, while NaruHina and SasuSaku lack mutual development in most shapes or forms, Naruto and Sakura have spent time together, and also have grown much closer then they were just starting out or probably even at the end of part 2 as well. Unless we see Sasuke paying more attention to Sakura whenever it is that they meet up again, or Naruto for Hinata these two pairings are at a disadvantage when looking at the possibilities based on what's happened so far.



Very true, and thank you for reminding the rest of us to calm down a little.

Now, as to debate. While I can see what you're saying about the one-sidedness between the pairings, I don't quite agree.  I'm not going to argue SasuSaku... but the other two are different.  Sakura is beginning to respect Naruto, sure, and Naruto, according to his admission, has always loved Sakura.  So we see a one-sided relation slowly turning to two-sided.  

But Hinata, by her own admission, has always loved Naruto, and as far as I know Naruto has always respected Hinata (even if he hasn't thought much more beyond that.)  So as far as that goes, the two are fairly equal.

Of course, you can argue whether Sakura feels "respect" or true affection, but it seems Sakura herself isn't sure, so the point is moot.  Especially since you can also argue that Naruto hasn't given much thought to his own "respect."  I don't claim he's secretly been in love with Hinata all this time, but he hasn't ever really bothered to examine his relation to her, much as Sakura hasn't really bothered to define her relation to Naruto.


Part of what is being said here is that Sakura is a main character (she spends more time in the episodes with Naruto.)  And as has been pointed out, that's not really a benefit in terms of matching.  Main characters sometimes do end up with a sideline figure (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars).  I was looking over some of the old boards, and most people thought Hinata would never do anything major again.  After 437, most people thought she was dead.  Both claimed this because she was a secondary character.  Kishi isn't above using secondary characters for primary roles.


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## Believe it!!! (May 11, 2009)

Kaekoro said:


> I fail to see the reason to debate, the only thing both NaruSaku and NaruHina have going for them are one-sided loves...Hinata loves Naruto and Naruto loves Sakura. NaruHina does NOT have more validity than NaruSaku as Naruto does not love Hinata at this current point of time.



NaruHina= one-sided. It has too little development, Naruto never thinks of her, etc. 

NaruSaku= Mutual, because Naruto has shown his care for Sakura, and Sakura has shown her care for Naruto, in situations such as 296. That forms mutual development, a pairing with two sides. You can't just say it has no two sided development, especially not without proof. 

So NaruHina is EXTREMELY invalid, it can't be compared to the development NaruSaku has.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, Hinata confessed, but she what does that mean to Naruto? He has talked with her for little over 30 minutes in his LIFE altogether. She doesn't know who he is, he doesn't know her. There is no romance.


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## Inuhanyou (May 11, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Very true, and thank you for reminding the rest of us to calm down a little.
> 
> Now, as to debate. While I can see what you're saying about the one-sidedness between the pairings, I don't quite agree.  I'm not going to argue SasuSaku... but the other two are different.  Sakura is beginning to respect Naruto, sure, and Naruto, according to his admission, has always loved Sakura.  So we see a one-sided relation slowly turning to two-sided.
> 
> ...




^ But if you were to argue that point of them being equal, you'd also be saying that Hinata and Naruto are "best friends" and while one side loves the other, the other side has slowly shown that the feelings for the other are ambiguous and may possibly be romantic. This for NaruHina is incorrect, as Naruto has never considered Hinata in that way, and although he has just found out about her feelings for him, it hardly makes the possibility of it being two sided legitimate. He'd have to first consider her role in his life, and also actually make an effort to understand her before moving on the the "possible romantic feelings" scenario.

And for the record, comparisons are also invalid in the rules. And i hated the HP pairing equivalents for the exact same reasons i hate the Naruto ones, so its not a good argument at all


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## Kaekoro (May 11, 2009)

Believe it!!! said:


> NaruHina= one-sided. It has too little development, Naruto never thinks of her, etc.
> 
> NaruSaku= Mutual, because Naruto has shown his care for Sakura, and Sakura has shown her care for Naruto, in situations such as 296. That forms mutual development, a pairing with two sides. You can't just say it has no two sided development, especially not without proof.
> 
> ...



I'll agree that Sakura does have "feelings" for Naruto, but as of yet we are unsure of what they are exactly. It's somewhere between more than friends but less than lovers. This is why Kishimoto annoys me... he is playing NaruSaku and NaruHina against one another... most of Part II was NaruSaku-centric, now it's all about NaruHina... for now... for all we know 500+ will be NaruSaku again...


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## Afalstein (May 11, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> ^ But if you were to argue that point of them being equal, you'd also be saying that Hinata and Naruto are "best friends" and while one side loves the other, the other side has slowly shown that the feelings for the other are ambiguous and may possibly be romantic. This for NaruHina is incorrect, as Naruto has never considered Hinata in that way, and although he has just found out about her feelings for him, it hardly makes the possibility of it being two sided legitimate. He'd have to first consider her role in his life, and also actually make an effort to understand her before moving on the the "possible romantic feelings" scenario.



A good point.  Naruto and Hinata are not best friends.  I would almost consider this a good thing, as I think romances require a certain amount of mystique, but that's irrelevant.

When Naruto looks at Hinata in the future, however, it is going to have to be in a romantic light (either positively or otherwise).  Like you say, he'll need to take some time to consider--I'm not trying to say anyone's going to be leaping into anyone's arms--but regardless of what he decides, he's at least going to be in position similar to Sakura's throughout the years.  That is, he's not going to be able to look at her without knowing that she loves him.  Much like Sakura can't really look at Naruto without knowing that he loves her.  Difference is, Sakura knew this a long time before she started to respect him, and Naruto respects Hinata already.

And here's something interesting.  Like you say, Sakura knows Naruto likes her already.  So in terms of making moves, she knows she has nothing to fear.  Yet if her respect is turning to affection, she certainly hasn't made any move on it.  If she wanted to find out more, she would certainly have no difficulty.  Sakura's not a shy one.  So it doesn't appear to be a pressing concern with her.

I guess the point I'm making is that the two are more or less equal at this point.  Naruto's now in a position similar to Sakura, but he's not going to go through the same process she did (i.e. he's not going to slap Hinata and say "get lost, Baka" like Sakura started doing with him).  I'd say he's likely to be at least as sympathetic to her as Sakura is being towards him right now.


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## izzyisozaki (May 12, 2009)

M4verick said:
			
		

> Lol, counter what. Your only counter arguments are "doesn't mean its romantic". Even if Sakura did say I love you, you would probably say she means platonic.



Stop being dense. CONTEXT demonstrates the likelihood of a scene meaning more. You can't say that Ino and Sasuke looking at Sakura with dotted bubbles suggests they think something that has _no_ major back up to be suggested at all! She was lying about what had happened to her. Him knowing or not doesn't compromise his safety nor does his concern demonstrated to be a problem for her. It's called speculation and explaining why is counter-evidence.



> Also, I linked 3 different pages that shows Naruto viewing Sasuke as a brother, but you still want to think the relationship is romantic or will escalate to romance. So regardless of what is said in the manga, your gonna hold on to your own fantasy. So whatever, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.


I can think what I want due to other things and you can adhere to brotherhood how much you want. For the hundreth time, I'm NOT going to debate NaruSasu as a pairing with you! So stop demanding me as if I should provide more evidence and go to the Is Naru♥Sasu (becoming) canon? thread I if you feel so convinced of yourself. Also, I never fucking said NaruSasu was _romantic_.



Forlong said:


> I fail to see the problem with that.



It suggests they are emotionally caught up with said person preventing mutual focus.



> So guys can't care about each other without being gay?
> 
> ZARU!


So guys can't care about each other _being_ gay?

Stop feeding the jackassery. I debate in favor of your pairing even too much.



> She's showing that she cares more for Naruto than the guy she said "I love you" to.  Gee...what could that mean?


Mind your own debate  I've said more than a thousand times NaruSaku > SasuSaku for how that's implied by various scenes. But she still hasn't jumped in Naruto's arms genius.


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## αshɘs (May 12, 2009)

*first and last post here*



> Hinata is the only character that was presented by respected and acknowledging him way before Sakura or even Kakashi started to.



Same argument over and over again. It doesn't matter what she thought to herself,because quite frankly she certainly didn't voice it.So for Naruto it's Iruka,Sandaime,Kakashi,Sasuke(especially him) and Sakura...
Where was she when Naruto needed emotional support?She saw everything ,no?



> While Sakura had to take a huge chunk of the story to start liking Naruto as a friend.



At least she had *development* .And unlike Hinata she saw Naruto at his darkest moments.She knows about his problems. Hinata proly knows too,but it was handled *off*-panel.
For a relationship to work you need to know the negative side of your partner too,not only the virtues.
And Hinata is rather a fangirl,worshipper than a soulmate.
End.

*I was in the mood...*
edit: I had to pick Jizz of all people


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## M4verick (May 12, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Stop being dense. CONTEXT demonstrates the likelihood of a scene meaning more. You can't say that Ino and Sasuke looking at Sakura with dotted bubbles suggests they think something that has _no_ major back up to be suggested at all! She was lying about what had happened to her. Him knowing or not doesn't compromise his safety nor does his concern demonstrated to be a problem for her. It's called speculation and explaining why is counter-evidence.



Funny that you bring up the only argument that you can give a counter too.  But yea, im sure Kishi decided to put the expressions of Sasuke and Ino in there with the dotted bubbles for no reason.  If you think about it, Sakura has a natural tendency to want to protect Naruto through out the course of the whole manga.  Sakura not telling that to Naruto was a way to protect his feelings.  If Naruto knew all that happened to Sakura while he was out cold, he would feel ashamed and pissed at the same time.




izzyisozaki said:


> I can think what I want due to other things and you can adhere to brotherhood how much you want. For the hundreth time, I'm NOT going to debate NaruSasu as a pairing with you! So stop demanding me as if I should provide more evidence and go to the Is Naru♥Sasu (becoming) canon? thread I if you feel so convinced of yourself. Also, I never fucking said NaruSasu was _romantic_.



Than you shouldn't be dense....  Who the heck brought up NaruSasu in the first place.  My original post had nothing to do with that pairing, and you brought it in.  If you don't want me to say anything about it, than stop bringing it up.  After every single one of your post, you added in your two cents about it.  But than you say "I don't wanna debate it".  Stop contradicting yourself.


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## Forlong (May 12, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> And here's something interesting.  Like you say, Sakura knows Naruto likes her already.  So in terms of making moves, she knows she has nothing to fear.  Yet if her respect is turning to affection, she certainly hasn't made any move on it.  If she wanted to find out more, she would certainly have no difficulty.  Sakura's not a shy one.  So it doesn't appear to be a pressing concern with her.


Well, after having her heart broken once, she might be a bit nervious about that.



izzyisozaki said:


> Mind your own debate  I've said more than a thousand times NaruSaku > SasuSaku for how that's implied by various scenes. But she still hasn't jumped in Naruto's arms genius.


Okay, I'll back off.



falconpawn said:


> NaruSaku is never going to happen as long as Sasuke is a constant compass in her life. Sakura love life revovles around the Uchiha. Naruto as a character wants nothing to do with that anymore. Since the guy himself is so dumb he doesn't even know how to love Sakura in a normal way.



There is very little evidence that Sakura still feels that way about Sasuke.  And as for Naruto not wanting anything to do with it, I have no clue what you're talking about.
Wow, a ban in one post.  I think that's a new record.
ZARU!


----------



## mystic868 (May 12, 2009)

M4verick said:


> No offense but, why are you telling me this?  I'm a NaruSaku supporter.
> 
> EDIT//
> 
> ...



Sorry for misunderstanding my friend, I was just speaking generally about this situation and it was mostly directed to NaruHina fans. I'm of course NaruSaku fan  
If I offended you in any way then forgive me I didn't have intentions to do that.
BTW do you think there will be 500+ manga chapters? That's unreal for me


----------



## M4verick (May 12, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Sorry for misunderstanding my friend, I was just speaking generally about this situation and it was mostly directed to NaruHina fans. I'm of course NaruSaku fan
> If I offended you in any way then forgive me I didn't have intentions to do that.
> BTW do you think there will be 500+ manga chapters? That's unreal for me



Not offended at all.  I thinks its gonna go over 500+ easily.  There's still so many things that need to be tied up.  Like NaruSaku making it official.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 12, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Funny that you bring up the only argument that you can give a counter too.  But yea, im sure Kishi decided to put the expressions of Sasuke and Ino in there with the dotted bubbles for no reason.  If you think about it, Sakura has a natural tendency to want to protect Naruto through out the course of the whole manga.  Sakura not telling that to Naruto was a way to protect his feelings.  If Naruto knew all that happened to Sakura while he was out cold, he would feel ashamed and pissed at the same time.



What's funny is that I countered or acknowledged whatever you wrote in the same exact way. Stop dodging what I've been repeating to you for the last several posts.



> Than you shouldn't be dense....  Who the heck brought up NaruSasu in the first place.  My original post had nothing to do with that pairing, and you brought it in.  If you don't want me to say anything about it, than stop bringing it up.  After every single one of your post, you added in your two cents about it.  But than you say "I don't wanna debate it".  Stop contradicting yourself.


No. Bringing up Naruto and Sasuke is not like debating for its own pairing purpose. If you can't handle _one_ comparison that was for showing why Sai CANNOT be reliable as romantic evidence then don't start arguing about it and complain cos I countered your bashing of something I cannot defend adequately here.


----------



## kalunga (May 12, 2009)

iRob said:


> Same argument over and over again. It doesn't matter what she thought to herself,because quite frankly she certainly didn't voice it.So for Naruto it's Iruka,Sandaime,Kakashi,Sasuke(especially him) and Sakura...
> Where was she when Naruto needed emotional support?She saw everything ,no?


Oppsss... Well, they were talking about the feelings between each other, and in this case, it matters... Hinata always respected and acknowledged him, and he as well seems to always respect her... That's not a beginning of a romance, but it is some kind of relationship, isn't it? And well said, when someone said that they haven't one...



iRob said:


> At least she had *development* .And unlike Hinata she saw Naruto at his darkest moments.She knows about his problems. Hinata proly knows too,but it was handled *off*-panel.
> For a relationship to work you need to know the negative side of your partner too,not only the virtues.
> And Hinata is rather a fangirl,worshipper than a soulmate.
> End.


Every character had development... Mainly when a character that coulnd't even say a word near her beloved, now confessed and even tried to save him.


----------



## M4verick (May 12, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> What's funny is that I countered or acknowledged whatever you wrote in the same exact way. Stop dodging what I've been repeating to you for the last several posts.



Nice, way to say I'm dodging as you nicely dodged my response.  Kudos to you.



izzyisozaki said:


> No. Bringing up Naruto and Sasuke is not like debating for its own pairing purpose. If you can't handle _one_ comparison that was for showing why Sai CANNOT be reliable as romantic evidence then don't start arguing about it and complain cos I countered your bashing of something I cannot defend adequately here.



What I couldn't handle was the terribly wrong rationalization you gave of Sai's words.  Sai's words come from Kishi.  And like I explained, every time Sakura's feelings are close to being exposed, Kishi changes the subject.  With Sai's words,  the subject changed  which stays consistent with the other situations where Sakura's feelings for Naruto were almost exposed.  

Yes, I admit the NaruSasu thing and not bringing it up since you can not share your views in this thread, but don't say I was bashing when I did nothing but show my evidence of how it was impossible.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 12, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Nice, way to say I'm dodging as you nicely dodged my response.  Kudos to you.



I'm not going to retype them for you. You hadn't acknowledged my countering of that scene till NOW [in your last post]. Enough 



> What I couldn't handle was the terribly wrong rationalization you gave of Sai's words.  Sai's words come from Kishi.  And like I explained, every time Sakura's feelings are close to being exposed, Kishi changes the subject.  With Sai's words,  the subject changed  which stays consistent with the other situations where Sakura's feelings for Naruto were almost exposed.
> 
> Yes, I admit the NaruSasu thing and not bringing it up since you can not share your views in this thread, *but don't say I was bashing when I did nothing but show my evidence of how it was impossible.*


TERRIBLY WRONG ?
Prove what  Sai is implying or that he knew what he was talking about by mentioning kindness. He knows about "brotherly bonds", not friendship ones.
Sakura and Naruto had a very one-sided looking relationship in Part 1. So the way Kishi drags out emotion doesn't necessarily prove romance just cos there's an interruption. Also Sasuke was interrupted before he finished speaking in front of Naruto's body in the VotE.

-snip-


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 12, 2009)

kalunga said:


> Every character had development... Mainly when a character that coulnd't even say a word near her beloved,
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Hinata at the beginning: Ooh, Naruto-kun! I must do my best!


*Spoiler*: __ 



Later: Oh Naruto-kun! must do my best! CONFESSION!




As you can see, she didn't change at all. She had the same stuff to confess in part one.


----------



## M4verick (May 12, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> I'm not going to retype them for you. You hadn't acknowledged my countering of that scene till NOW [in your last post]. Enough



Yea, cuz there wrong, which I just pointed out [in my last post]


izzyisozaki said:


> TERRIBLY WRONG ?
> Prove what  Sai is implying or that he knew what he was talking about by mentioning kindness. He knows about "brotherly bonds", not friendship ones.
> Sakura and Naruto had a very one-sided looking relationship in Part 1. So the way Kishi drags out emotion doesn't necessarily prove romance just cos there's an interruption. Also Sasuke was interrupted before he finished speaking in front of Naruto's body in the VotE.



Yea, he doesn't know, thats why he stated he was reading about it in a book, but he didn't understand.  

The argument "does not mean its romantic" is the most played out argument in this forum, and its the argument you have to resort to time and time again.  Besides Hinata's confession, and the NaruSakuYamo scene, you can almost say that argument for any and all romantic development for all characters in the manga period.  You repeating that over and over again is much like a resounding *GONG*.

-snip-


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 12, 2009)

Believe it!!! said:


> Hinata at the beginning: Ooh, Naruto-kun! I must do my best!
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


When did she ever say "Oh Naruto-kun! must do my best!" In part II?

I only remember her saying "Lets do our best" to Naruto during their first mission together.


----------



## Forlong (May 12, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> When did she ever say "Oh Naruto-kun! must do my best!" In part II?
> 
> I only remember her saying "Lets do our best" to Naruto during their first mission together.



Oh, big difference!


----------



## Temp_Position (May 12, 2009)

M4verick said:


> The argument "does not mean its romantic" is the most played out argument in this forum, and its the argument you have to resort to time and time again.  Besides Hinata's confession, and the NaruSakuYamo scene, *you can almost say that argument for any and all romantic development for all characters in the manga period.*  You repeating that over and over again is much like a resounding *GONG*.
> 
> -snip-



I agree with this statement, but thats because I find it hard to tell the difference  between romantic feelings and platonic feelings of friendship and respect in this manga when it comes to some dialogue and actions. Everything is so vague and can be interpreted in so many ways. Nothing is mutual because its either unrequited or misunderstood/developing love or repect between the girls and the guys. Everything in this manga is about development, so its understandable if nothing is set in stone. Everyone is single for a reason. The way the relationships develop is confusing. It could be romantic, or it could be platonic. 

Because the relationships in this manga are developing, the evidence isnt strong enough as proof for a pairing, but you can use it for speculation. Until we get something _more_ suggestive, like for example, lets say Sakura says something like: " I now see Sasuke as a friend that I cherish, but, Naruto....I think I see you as something more. Someone, much, much more to me." than, we might have something to work with. This hypothetical statement could be debated otherwise, such as saying "well, she didnt say what. She could easily mean as a brother. A brother means more than a friend." And someone else might say " who the hell would say that about there brother?"
and on and on. The only way we can be sure is if Sakura says "Naruto, I love you." 

I interpret the character development of NaruSaku as two people that are getting to know and respect each other. Im tempted to say _romantically_, but I'll hold my tongue until I hear what Sakura has to says what Sasuke means to her now, in part 1.


----------



## Forlong (May 12, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> The only way we can be sure is if Sakura says "A, I A you."



Maybe not even then.


----------



## Temp_Position (May 12, 2009)

^lol, I know. She said that to Sasuke, if she changes her mind now.... "fickle betch"


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 12, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Oh, big difference!



Why would saying that prove she hasn't changed? Seriously...


----------



## Fay (May 12, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> When did she ever say "Oh Naruto-kun! must do my best!" In part II?
> 
> I only remember her saying "Lets do our best" to Naruto during their first mission together.



The japanese sentence she used "yoroshiku ne" doesn't mean that literally, but has many different meanings in english.
It's a polite japanese saying that goes along the lines of "please have me/please accept me" but can also be translated as "Let's do our best" or "pleased to work with you (viz translation)".


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 12, 2009)

They weren't quotes. They were interpretations of Hinata's personality. It was always that she would work her hardest for Naruto. She worked hard against Neji and lost, then 
*Spoiler*: __ 



she worked hard against Pain and lost.


 So she may have not said _that_ exactly, but that was not what I meant. That's who Hinata is, thats who she always was, she hasn'r changed abit. NO DEVELOPMENT!


----------



## Erendhyl (May 12, 2009)

Believe it!!! said:


> They weren't quotes. They were interpretations of Hinata's personality. It was always that she would work her hardest for Naruto. She worked hard against Neji and lost, then
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think it's fair to say that Hinata has no development because she lost to Pain. Naruto was pinned down by Pain's chakra rods before Hinata intervened, but that doesn't mean that Naruto hasn't grown at all since he fell unconscious during his and Sasuke's fight with Haku back in the Land of Waves. While fighting ability will often equal development in this series, it isn't the only way that a character can grow.

During her fight with Neji, Hinata was shown to be pretty much terrified by him. She actually begins to cry a little in the last panel on the second line. Yet against Pain, Hinata is shown as unafraid of him, despite Pain being a significantly stronger opponent than Neji. Hinata goes from trembling with nerves to unafraid against a villain that she knows full well can kill her. I'd call that character development.


----------



## Forlong (May 12, 2009)

Fay said:


> The japanese sentence she used "yoroshiku ne" doesn't mean that literally, but has many different meanings in english.
> It's a polite japanese saying that goes along the lines of "please have me/please accept me" but can also be translated as "Let's do our best" or "pleased to work with you (viz translation)".



"Please have me"?  

Looks like I was right, the phrase is no different.  It's just translated differently this time.  I'm not saying Hinata doesn't have developement, but if you're going to proove she does, you might not want to use two times she used the same line.


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 12, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> I don't think it's fair to say that Hinata has no development because she lost to Pain. Naruto was pinned down by Pain's chakra rods before Hinata intervened, but that doesn't mean that Naruto hasn't grown at all since he fell unconscious during his and Sasuke's fight with Haku back in the Land of Waves. While fighting ability will often equal development in this series, it isn't the only way that a character can grow.
> 
> During her fight with Neji, Hinata was shown to be pretty much terrified by him. She actually begins to cry a little in the last panel on the second line. Yet against Pain, Hinata is shown as unafraid of him, despite Pain being a significantly stronger opponent than Neji. Hinata goes from trembling with nerves to unafraid against a villain that she knows full well can kill her. I'd call that character development.



Ok then. I'll give you this; Hinata developed during her fight with Neji. But at the end she gained the resolve to fight and not to give up. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



It doesn't matter that Pain is stronger.


 I'm talking about emotional development, not physical. So Hinata faced Neji despite the odds at *the end* of the fight. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Against Pain she had that *same resolve.* Is that development? Because it seems nothing changed.




She is still relying on following Naruto.
She still references Naruto when she challenges ANYONE. 
She still fights without giving up.

She does these, no better, no worse. So name one thing that changed about Hinata within context. She didn't get more brave or less shy. She didn't deepen her feelings for Naruto, they stayed the same, and she had no encounters OR panels whatsoever to suggest this. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



437 isn't one of those. All of the flashbacks she had were from part one. That means that she had the same thoughts in part one.


 Nothing has changed about Hinata, nothing changed about NaruHina. It is still without change or development, and there's nothing at all for proof on Naruto's side.


----------



## Erendhyl (May 12, 2009)

Believe it!!! said:


> Ok then. I'll give you this; Hinata developed during her fight with Neji. But at the end she gained the resolve to fight and not to give up.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



There was a change. By the end of part 1, and even into part 2, Hinata still had not gained the courage to confess her feelings to Naruto.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Against Pain, she did.




Also, this was probably a little unclear in my last post: in the examples I provided, I wasn't talking about Hinata's physical state. I was using her physical reactions as clues to her emotional state. Since she was almost in tears and trembling, I assumed that her emotional state against Neji was one of fear and uncertainty. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Since she was willing to protest against Pain, I assumed that that meant that she was no longer afraid.


 This represents emotional development in how Hinata handles being in a situation where she stands a high chance of losing. In one she is afraid; in the other, she has courage. This is development.



> She is still relying on following Naruto.
> *She still references Naruto when she challenges ANYONE.*
> She still fights without giving up.



The second one in particular I will protest. Hinata has had a grand total of two fights in the manga so far. One was against Neji, where _Naruto was cheering her on_. Naruto was involved in that fight because of his own interest. Here we see Naruto telling Hayate not to stop the match, followed by Hinata standing back up on the next page. Naruto was commenting on her fight there, therefore Hinata is going to care about what he's seeing from her.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Against Pain, she was fighting to save Naruto, so Naruto actually was incredibly relevant to that fight, therefore it should be assumed that she _would_ mention him.

In regards to the third one "I always used to cry and give up..." This development occurred during her fight with Neji, where Kurenai comments that Hinata used to always be a quitter. What I am trying to point out with this is that, once again, Hinata did develop, but as it was during her fight with Neji, I'll not press it for this debate.

As for the first one... she comments that she wanted to overtake him. She isn't following Naruto so much as she is using Naruto as a measuring stick. Naruto is the loser who still smiled and kept trying even when he failed. Hinata is the loser who almost gave up, but because she saw someone like Naruto, she was willing to try to be like that. She's going to use him as an example, because he was the one who inspired her originally, but she's not going to always be content to be behind. (Main Character no Jutsu will probably keep Naruto ahead, but from a character perspective, Hinata doesn't just want to follow Naruto.)






> She does these, no better, no worse. So name one thing that changed about Hinata within context. She didn't get more brave or less shy. She didn't deepen her feelings for Naruto, they stayed the same, and she had no encounters OR panels whatsoever to suggest this.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I already sort of responded to this above, but I'll say it again. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



What changed is that she gained the courage to confess how she felt.


 If we go with your idea that Hinata has had these feelings to the same degree since part 1, then we can also see that, until recently, she lacked the either the emotional preparation or courage to be able to confess to them. That is development. She gained the ability to overcome shyness and (though this has never been touched upon in canon) the instinctive fear people have of rejection to be able to confess to Naruto how she feels for him. That is development.


----------



## KFC (May 12, 2009)

Believe it!!! said:


> They weren't quotes. They were interpretations of Hinata's personality. It was always that she would work her hardest for Naruto. She worked hard against Neji and lost, then
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'd hardly call what happened to her "trying hard" :rofl






kalunga said:


> Oppsss... Well, they were talking about the feelings between each other, and in this case, it matters... Hinata always respected and acknowledged him, and he as well seems to always respect her... That's not a beginning of a romance, but it is some kind of relationship, isn't it? And well said, when someone said that they haven't one...



Sure, it can be seen as a relationship, but not anything serious. Hinata's acknowledgment of Naruto was entirely to herself, and therefore had no effect on Naruto himself, which in turn means that it hardly counts. The relationship that it can be seen as hinting towards (at least up until the current chapters) is in the same tier as SasuSaku, as in, it's nonexistent except for a few VERY brief encounters.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 13, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> There was a change. By the end of part 1, and even into part 2, Hinata still had not gained the courage to confess her feelings to Naruto.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Very good point, she did gain bravery. But that happened after the initial Part 1 fight. Since then, Hinata had resolved to be more brave. Clearly this happened, however, I'll come back to this in a little bit.



> Also, this was probably a little unclear in my last post: in the examples I provided, I wasn't talking about Hinata's physical state. I was using her physical reactions as clues to her emotional state. Since she was almost in tears and trembling, I assumed that her emotional state against Neji was one of fear and uncertainty.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



That is indeed, true, HOWEVER, again, I will cover why it's wrong in a bit. (Yes, I'll get to the point, but I don't want to repeat myself for no reason.



> The second one in particular I will protest. Hinata has had a grand total of two fights in the manga so far. One was against Neji, where _Naruto was cheering her on_. Naruto was involved in that fight because of his own interest. Here we see Naruto telling Hayate not to stop the match, followed by Hinata standing back up on the next page. Naruto was commenting on her fight there, therefore Hinata is going to care about what he's seeing from her.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Again, you have very good points, but Naruto would have done that for anyone.  As for the spoiler part.... Well, heck for all the spoiler parts, I'll get to that in a minute.



> In regards to the third one "I always used to cry and give up..." This development occurred during her fight with Neji, where Kurenai comments that Hinata used to always be a quitter. What I am trying to point out with this is that, once again, Hinata did develop, but as it was during her fight with Neji, I'll not press it for this debate.
> 
> As for the first one... she comments that she wanted to overtake him. She isn't following Naruto so much as she is using Naruto as a measuring stick. Naruto is the loser who still smiled and kept trying even when he failed. Hinata is the loser who almost gave up, but because she saw someone like Naruto, she was willing to try to be like that. She's going to use him as an example, because he was the one who inspired her originally, but she's not going to always be content to be behind. (Main Character no Jutsu will probably keep Naruto ahead, but from a character perspective, Hinata doesn't just want to follow Naruto.)[/spoiler]



No comment... Other than the fact that all of this was not only in part 1, but that all of this hasn't progressed any since. Except for the bravery, but even then, it's debatable. I'll elaborate, again I say, at the end.





> I already sort of responded to this above, but I'll say it again.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, that is development... But that's not development from her Part 1 personality. At all. And this is where I'll get into the tagged 437 stuff (finally! XD)


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata hasn't changed in 437. You say that she's gained courage to stand up for Naruto and tell him about her feelings. I don't think that's the case. I think she was scared again. And the reason for this is because she constantly doubted Naruto throughout the whole battle. She jumped in right after he said that no one was to interfere. Yes, she went in knowing the consequences, and it did get Naruto out of a tight spot, but in the end, it wasn't a positive action. Naruto entered 6TK, and nearly destroyed the seal. That's not Hinata's fault, of course, but her actions were rash, and that was the result.

The main thing is that she has placed all her faith in Naruto. That's not what he was trying to tell her at all! The point was that she was supposed to have faith in herself, which is no doubt positive development. That is why I think this event happened the way it did. It's too early to see what direction Kishi is going with this, but it is indeed supposed to be her big development in this moment. Does this make sense?


----------



## faiN (May 13, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> There was a change. By the end of part 1, and even into part 2, Hinata still had not gained the courage to confess her feelings to Naruto.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



BANG, BANG, and more BANG.


----------



## M4verick (May 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Erendhyl said:


> There was a change. By the end of part 1, and even into part 2, Hinata still had not gained the courage to confess her feelings to Naruto.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...






Sorry to spam, but I had to commend you.  Even though I'm for NaruSaku, this is one of the best NaruHina arguments I have seen in awhile. Very clean.


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 13, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> Very good point, she did gain bravery. But that happened after the initial Part 1 fight. Since then, Hinata had resolved to be more brave. Clearly this happened, however, I'll come back to this in a little bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




I have to disagree, Saying Hinata doubted Naruto throughout the whole battle is untrue.Hinata didn't interfere with his fight at all. She jumped in at the *last second* to save him when he was pinned down, and about to be captured.Wouldn't you do the same to save your loved ones?
The fight had already ended, because Naruto had nothing up his sleeve, so there's no harm in being a Hero at this moment.


----------



## Tenrol (May 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





BruceLeefan said:


> I have to disagree, Saying Hinata doubted Naruto throughout the whole battle is untrue.Hinata didn't interfere with his fight at all. She jumped in at the *last second* to save him when he was pinned down, and about to be captured.Wouldn't you do the same to save your loved ones?
> The fight had already ended, because Naruto had nothing up his sleeve, so there's no harm in being a Hero at this moment.



Because you know that Naruto didn't have anything up to his sleeve . And yeah she doubted Naruto the whole fight even Kiba said we need to have faith in Naruto while Hinata is doubting him.


----------



## KFC (May 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Tenrol said:


> Because you know that Naruto didn't have anything up to his sleeve . And yeah she doubted Naruto the whole fight even Kiba said we need to have faith in Naruto while Hinata is doubting him.



An eagerness to help doesn't necessarily mean that you doubt the person's ability to do it themselves.


----------



## Tenrol (May 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





DarkUchiha said:


> An eagerness to help doesn't necessarily mean that you doubt the person's ability to do it themselves.



Well jumping in there knowing that she'll just be a burden i'd think she doubt him.


----------



## KFC (May 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Meh, I think it was ZOMG I LOVE HIMZ I MUST HELP NAO! more than anything.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 13, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First off, you might want to tag it, it's HoU, and we aren't supposed to leave non-Anime stuff untagged.


*Spoiler*: __ 



As for the not doubting, I'm not talking about interference. She was verbalizing doubt when he was winning. Case in point: Here (This leads to the next page). Granted, that's only one scene, but it is the only time Hinata is shown in the entire fight that she knows what's going on before her Kamikaze run. And this only lead to This, which ultimately led to the confession part. The point is, and I may be entirely wrong like I have been before in many other things, that Hinata did it out of doubt. Not out of a supposed "bravery". Yes, she actually did something, good for her, but the initial reaction is no different than the last time. Which was in part 2.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 13, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Yea, cuz there wrong, which I just pointed out [in my last post]



Don't remember what evidence made yours more valid than mine 



> Yea, he doesn't know, thats why he stated he was reading about it in a book, but he didn't understand.


ORLY ????

*Spoiler*: __ 






> The argument "does not mean its romantic" is the most played out argument in this forum, and its the argument you have to resort to time and time again.  Besides Hinata's confession, and the NaruSakuYamo scene, you can almost say that argument for any and all romantic development for all characters in the manga period.  You repeating that over and over again is much like a resounding *GONG*.


Sorry if I dared to contradict arguable NaruSaku evidence on a debate thread!!!!


----------



## Tyrannos (May 13, 2009)

I have to agree with Twilight regarding Hinata.

NaruHina's _always_ try to point out is that Hinata "knows" Naruto, but she only knows his persistence in his quest to be acknowledged.  In which she took that to heart in her own personal quest to be acknowledged.

Hinata doesn't know Naruto's pain of being hunted by the Akatsuki.  Nor has she demonstrated her understanding of Naruto's feelings regarding Sasuke and his endeavor to get him back.   And it's really ironic that in Part 2, she contradicts herself with what she said to Naruto in Chapter 98 in being a "proud failure" and getting up after being beaten down.  


*Spoiler*: _Because in_ 



*Chapter 383:*  Tobi knocks Naruto into a puddle and Hinata freaks out, thinking Naruto's hurt.   But the others knew Naruto was okay and didn't even have to react.  Not only that, Hinata was the only one who went against Ninja training in taking her eyes off the enemy.

She should know the Akatsuki are after Naruto and she let her guard down, which could've ended up in disaster.





*Spoiler*: _Later on_ 



*Chapter 431:*  Naruto tells that nobody is to assist.

*Chapter 434:*  Hinata's flipping out because "Naruto is alone", when he specifically told people not to help.  (I.E. he wants to be alone so people don't get hurt).   Everyone but Hinata accepts his wishes.

When she collapses on her knees, it's proof enough she doesn't have faith in Naruto.  She thinks he's going to get hurt, when everyone knows helping would only cause more problems.

*Chapter 437:*  While Naruto is chatting with Pain, Hinata's going "Naruto-kun", and is concerned for him, so much she's in deep thought to disregard his wishes of no interferance.

Pain pierces Naruto with more rods and says the piercings aren't deep. 

And here comes Hinata to the rescue, in "saving" Naruto.   Then she clearly says, she *acted out of selfishness*.   And then says she was willing to throw away her life out of her love for him.

BTW, when she says, "I chased you forever, always wishing I would catch up", seems like she acknowledged she wasn't going to win Naruto's heart.  Even if she does love him with all her heart.

Then she attacks futilely and is defeated without even laying a finger on Pain.   Pain stabs her and causes Naruto to awaken the 6-tailed Kyuubi.


When she recovers, she gets chewed out by Sakura (like she did in Chapter 383) in that her actions were _stupid_.





*Spoiler*: _Now then_ 



Now there is a debate that Naruto didn't need Hinata's help, and I agree.   Even though Hinata getting stabbed triggered the 6-tailed Kyuubi and he freed himself, in later chapters Naruto shown could've gotten out of that situation himself.

Why?   Remember the only thing keeping Naruto down was the pole though his hands, with chakra rods in keeping him from controlling himself.  

However, in later chapters Naruto gets stabbed at point blank and he still was in control of himself.   So clearly Hinata's actions was worthless and all she was used for was a * plot device* to show the Naruto's upper-tailed states and the Father-Son talk.


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 13, 2009)

Tyrannos said:
			
		

> I have to agree with Twilight regarding Hinata.
> 
> NaruHina's _always_ try to point out is that Hinata "knows" Naruto, but she only knows his persistence in his quest to be acknowledged.  In which she took that to heart in her own personal quest to be acknowledged.
> 
> *Hinata doesn't know Naruto's pain of being hunted by the Akatsuki.*  Nor has she demonstrated her understanding of Naruto's feelings regarding Sasuke and his endeavor to get him back.   And it's really ironic that in Part 2, she contradicts herself with what she said to Naruto in Chapter 98 in being a "proud failure" and getting up after being beaten down.



I'm sorry, what do you actually *mean* by saying that?  Are you trying to argue that Hinata doesn't know Naruto is being pursued by the Akatsuki?  Or are you making an argument that involves the pain Naruto felt when Gaara was killed?  Because no-one but another Jinchūriki really understands that pain, so singling out Hinata for not understanding that is a little harsh.

On the Sasuke front, that's true.  But The argument that has to be made is one that i have said before.  Does Hinata know enough about Naruto to fall in love with him?  Answer: Yes.

She knows his lonliness, his ability to get back up when he falls (proud failure), she knows his desire to be acknowledged.  Again, picking on Hinata for not thinking about Sasuke is a little harsh don't you think?  She gets little time as it is, and you want her to be able to demonstrate a complete understanding of Naruto's *entire* character before you'll accept her love as real.

I'll put it the same way as i have a number of times.  In many ways, Hinata has shown that she understands Naruto, and not just one aspect of him.  In what way has she shown that she does *not* understand him?  I'll be addressing what you said below in a second.


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> Tobi knocks Naruto into a puddle and Hinata freaks out, thinking Naruto's hurt.   But the others knew Naruto was okay and didn't even have to react.  Not only that, Hinata was the only one who went against Ninja training in taking her eyes off the enemy.
> 
> She should know the Akatsuki are after Naruto and she let her guard down, which could've ended up in disaster.






Hinata reacts because she is *concerned*.  It's one of those things that comes out of *loving* someone.  The feeling is not 100% rational, and to expect it to be is ridiculous.  More importantly, how do you think that scene is meant to be read?  Do you think that Kishimoto has included that scene because he wanted to demonstrate that Hinata does not understand Naruto?  If so, it is a very convoluted way of doing something that should be ultimately pointless if he is eventually going to make a different pairing canon.  Again, i'm returning to something i've said before.  Hinata's feelings for Naruto have been portrayed positively throughout this manga and you're reading it against how it is meant to be read.  Your bias against NaruHina is affecting how you read that scene.


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> Naruto tells that nobody is to assist.
> 
> *Chapter 434:*  Hinata's flipping out because "Naruto is alone", when he specifically told people not to help.  (I.E. he wants to be alone so people don't get hurt).   Everyone but Hinata accepts his wishes.
> 
> When she collapses on her knees, it's proof enough she doesn't have faith in Naruto.  She thinks he's going to get hurt, when everyone knows helping would only cause more problems.






Again, concern.  And again, you're seeing it negatively.  You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but your opinion makes 90% of Hinata's character negative and i honestly don't think that Kishimoto is trying to portray her in that way, ever.  Her concern is meant to be a good thing.  It shows that she cares, not that she doesn't have faith.  Surely you've been in a situation where you're concerned about someone, but you have faith in them?  If so, then why should Hinata be treated any differently?


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> *Chapter 437:*  While Naruto is chatting with Pain, Hinata's going "Naruto-kun", and is concerned for him, so much she's in deep thought to disregard his wishes of no interferance.
> 
> Pain pierces Naruto with more rods and says the piercings aren't deep.
> 
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 



When you say "chatting with Pain" you make it sound so nonchalant.  He's trapped, and admits so himself.  And again, saying "disregarding his wishes" sounds so negative when her feelings are blantantly not meant to be taken as such.

Similarly, you say "throwing her life away".  You're ignoring her saying "i'm not afraid of *protecting* you".  That's where her intentions lie.  She's not afraid to die, if it is by *protecting* him, no matter how futile.

The bolded text is stretching in attempt to prove something it cannot.  She uses the past tense because she doesn't think she will survive.  More importantly, the past tense is more natural english.  No-one would say "I'm chasing you, and i wish i would catch up" because that's bad english.

The reason she *says* she's being selfish is because she can't just stand by and watch the person she loves being taken away from her.  She *thinks* she is being selfish because she is not just trying to save Naruto for him, but also for *herself*.  But again, she is *trying to save him*.

Put it this way, why do *you* think she is being selfish?  You're the person putting negative spin on this, so justify it.

Because i don't think she is being selfish.  By saying that she is being selfish, she's being self-depreciating, a trait very in keeping with her character.  I mean, she is willing to give her own *life* in an attempt to save his, which is incredibly selfless.  Again, how do you think she is being selfish?

And the point about her actual success in fighting Pain is moot.  The fact is she was trying.  She said she wanted to protect Naruto, and she backed it up with her actions.  You're focusing on the negative again, the fact she failed.

And the comment of Sakura "chewing her out" is just not true.  "...Don't ever try anything crazy like that again..." is what Sakura says.  Pay attention to the pauses and the lack of an exclaimation mark.  Say it to yourself out loud.  Sakura is expressing her *concern*.  But again, you're reading that panel negatively... read it without bias, and tell me what you see.





*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> Now there is a debate that Naruto didn't need Hinata's help, and I agree.   Even though Hinata getting stabbed triggered the 6-tailed Kyuubi and he freed himself, in later chapters Naruto shown could've gotten out of that situation himself.
> 
> Why?   Remember the only thing keeping Naruto down was the pole though his hands, with chakra rods in keeping him from controlling himself.
> 
> However, in later chapters Naruto gets stabbed at point blank and he still was in control of himself.   So clearly Hinata's actions was worthless and all she was used for was a * plot device* to show the Naruto's upper-tailed states and the Father-Son talk.







*Spoiler*: __ 



You have missed the point on two counts.

One, none of Naruto, Hinata nor Pain know that he might be able to get up at that point.  Hinata and Pain certainly don't know, and i don't think that Naruto does either.

Two, Naruto only manages to resist Pain's chakra rods when he is in both Sage mode *and* uses the Kyuubi chakra.  When he is pinned down he is able to use neither.

Importantly, because Hinata doesn't know that Naruto might be able to escape, she sees the person she loves trapped and about to be taken away.  What does she have to do.  She has to *try* to save him.  It proves she loves him.

But her actions aren't just a Kyuubi trigger.  What kind of mental state was Naruto in while Pain was lecturing him, demanding his answer for peace?  Naruto didn't have the answer, and seemed to be also resigned to being taken away.  Hinata, by stepping in, confessing and attacking Pain, showed Naruto that he *could not give up*.

Hinata's actions are *not* worthless.  Without her, we have no reason to suggest that Naruto wouldn't have been taken away.

Everything's a plot device.  Don't diminish Hinata's actions by making an argument that is true for everything in the manga.




More importantly, stop reading Hinata's actions in the manga as negative when they are so obviously not meant to be seen as such.  Your bias is affecting how you read all of this.

I'm not arguing that i'm unbiased, but i truly believe that Kishimoto is portraying Hinata as a positive character.  Why read her actions as negative when she is meant to be seen as positive?


----------



## Forlong (May 13, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> I'm sorry, what do you actually *mean* by saying that?  Are you trying to argue that Hinata doesn't know Naruto is being pursued by the Akatsuki?  Or are you making an argument that involves the pain Naruto felt when Gaara was killed?  Because no-one but another Jinchūriki really understands that pain, so singling out Hinata for not understanding that is a little harsh.
> 
> On the Sasuke front, that's true.  But The argument that has to be made is one that i have said before.  Does Hinata know enough about Naruto to fall in love with him?  Answer: Yes.
> 
> She knows his lonliness, his ability to get back up when he falls (proud failure), she knows his desire to be acknowledged.  Again, picking on Hinata for not thinking about Sasuke is a little harsh don't you think?  She gets little time as it is, and you want her to be able to demonstrate a complete understanding of Naruto's *entire* character before you'll accept her love as real.


Sakura understands Naruto's loneliness as well.  I don't see how that understanding somehow makes Hinata special.



XXXTurkey said:


> Hinata reacts because she is *concerned*.  It's one of those things that comes out of *loving* someone.  The feeling is not 100% rational, and to expect it to be is ridiculous.  More importantly, how do you think that scene is meant to be read?  Do you think that Kishimoto has included that scene because he wanted to demonstrate that Hinata does not understand Naruto?  If so, it is a very convoluted way of doing something that should be ultimately pointless if he is eventually going to make a different pairing canon.


I'll give you that one.  Hinata was just concerned.  But the _entire manga_ is full of things that are ultimately pointless.


----------



## Temp_Position (May 13, 2009)

Concerning NaruHina, are we debating her qualifications for being with Naruto? I think that whether she knows, understands or even supports him or not shouldnt be an issue. We all know how she feels and thats all that matters in romance. The only thing we need to know is how Naruto feels about Hinata. So far, all I got is that Naruto thinks of her as this weird girl that he doesnt mind since he likes weird people. Other than that, there interaction and Naruto's thoughts on Hinata has been very minimal. The only time we get any info on what he thinks about Hinata is during the chuunin exam with Neji. He doesnt say anything bad about her. In fact he praises her for trying so hard to be a kunoichi and berrates Neji for not protecting her when he should have. It doesnt proove NaruHina, but they are friendly thoughts on her behalf. Thats the only NaruHina development on Naruto's side that I can think of.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 13, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> Concerning NaruHina, are we debating her qualifications for being with Naruto? I think that whether she knows, understands or even supports him or not shouldnt be an issue. We all know how she feels and thats all that matters in romance. The only thing we need to know is how Naruto feels about Hinata.



That's true, but we're basically aimlessly trying to explain why we think Naruto will say No or Yes, basically. By trying to see how Kishi had portrayed things in the past, we can see threads that lead to where he is headed. We know that he has planned this story out carefully, so there are things from time to time that are repeated for reasons. Thus the bringing up of Hinata's motives. 

Yes, this really doesn't have much to do with Naruto's feelings, but depending on how Kishi portrays Hinata's feelings, we might see if he intends to play it out with Naruto's choice of yes or no. After all, Kishi is both the narrator and the one who calls the shots.


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 13, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> There was a change. By the end of part 1, and even into part 2, Hinata still had not gained the courage to confess her feelings to Naruto.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


A spontaneous moment is not development. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



She confessed because she thought Naruto was about to die. She was never in a situation like that before, and she had no scenes of development through Part 2. So she could have done it in part one, Naruto just had to be on the brink of death in her mind. 





Erendhyl said:


> Also, this was probably a little unclear in my last post: in the examples I provided, I wasn't talking about Hinata's physical state. I was using her physical reactions as clues to her emotional state. Since she was almost in tears and trembling, I *assumed* that her emotional state against Neji was one of fear and uncertainty.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Did you read the Neji and Hinata fight? Hinata gained courage at the end. That was the same courage she had when facing Pain. 
Proof:Suiton Suijinheki
The hell is this?
BOLD: 




Erendhyl said:


> The second one in particular I will protest. *Hinata has had a grand total of two fights in the manga so far*. One was against Neji, where _Naruto was cheering her on_. Naruto was involved in that fight because of his own interest. Here we see Naruto telling Hayate not to stop the match, followed by Hinata standing back up on the next page. Naruto was commenting on her fight there, therefore Hinata is going to care about what he's seeing from her.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Naruto had nothing to do with that fight. He was just shouting. He decided to get involved later by challenging Neji and his views on destiny. Anyway, who was Hinata fighting for? 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Against Pain, again, who was Hinata fighting for?



Wheather or not Naruto is involved, she is still fighting for him.
BOLD: 


Erendhyl said:


> In regards to the third one "I always used to cry and give up..." This development occurred during her fight with Neji, where Kurenai comments that Hinata used to always be a quitter. What I am trying to point out with this is that, once again, Hinata did develop, but as it was during her fight with Neji, I'll not press it for this debate.



I know. That's the one time she got development, I already said that.


Erendhyl said:


> As for the first one... she comments that she wanted to overtake him. She isn't following Naruto so much as she is using Naruto as a measuring stick. Naruto is the loser who still smiled and kept trying even when he failed. Hinata is the loser who almost gave up, but because she saw someone like Naruto, she was willing to try to be like that. She's going to use him as an example, because he was the one who inspired her originally, but she's not going to always be content to be behind. (Main Character no Jutsu will probably keep Naruto ahead, but from a character perspective, Hinata doesn't just want to follow Naruto.)






...
*Spoiler*: __ 



She said her self she wanted to walk with him, to be with him; she was chasing him.Chasing is a frantic, desperate form of following. She said she wants to be with him, because she thinks that she will become better that way. Hinata is following Naruto to become like him.





Erendhyl said:


> I already sort of responded to this above, but I'll say it again.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



She had the courage packed inside. She needed a catalyst; Naruto almost dying (in her sight)



BOLD:


----------



## Temp_Position (May 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _manga spoiler_ 



Hinata's character has developed because of her admiration of Naruto, but I would say that comparing her base character to her current one, she probably developed around~ 20-25%. 

In pt.2 she is still the shy girl who always faints around Naruto. The confession is a big factor into how much her base character changed. I agree that Naruto had to have been almost dead for her to get motivated enough to confess, but thats a plus for NaruHina. It shows that her admiration of Naruto goes beyond fangirlism. She was willing to stake her life against an opponent that could kill her. I also agree that for someone as shy as her, confessing is a hard thing to do. If she was just a girl who only admired him, she would have thought about her safety and not try to save him. 

The possibility of NaruHina is possible because of the confession, but its still slight. Even though Hinata developed because of Naruto. The reason this relationship is difficult is because of Naruto's feelings for Sakura. Its established that Naruto likes Sakura. If Naruto gives up on liking Sakura, than we have something to work with.


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 13, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Sooo, she needs him to be on the brink of death to get her fangirling ass up and say something she's felt for three or more years? Even though she was supposed to gain his courage 300 chapters ago? I don't think so. If anything, the fact he had to be dying proves it's not love. If her feelings were that strong than she would have done it in chapter 98.


----------



## Erendhyl (May 13, 2009)

Believe it!!! said:


> A spontaneous moment is not development.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



You say that Hinata has had the courage to do this since part 1, yet here you also call it a "spontaneous moment". Which is it? A spontaneous moment would imply that it was something out of the blue, but later in your post you say that she has had it in her to confess since part 1. Would that not make it an incredibly anticipated moment, and therefore not spontaneous?


*Spoiler*: __ 



There were also a good four chapters of Hinata worrying over Naruto before acting, so the manga chapters weren't lacking in foreshadowing, if that was the point that you were trying to make. Hinata didn't just show up in 437, attack Pain, and confess. She'd been watching since 434, and she noticed when he was _pinned down and unable to fight back_.






> Did you read the Neji and Hinata fight? Hinata gained courage at the end. That was the same courage she had when facing Pain.
> Proof:Suiton Suijinheki
> Itachi wasn't serious
> BOLD:



What I was referring to was evidence from my first post, before you had acknowledged the development that occurred in Hinata during her fight with Neji. In that original post, I had provided her behaviors at the beginning of her fight with Neji and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



her fight with Pain


 as a contrast to indicate her development. I then clarified this in the part you quoted to indicate that I had been talking about her emotional development during those points, by using her physical behaviors as evidence of her emotional state. I was clarifying an issue I was using in regards to her development during her fight with Neji, which you had not acknowledged then, but have acknowledged now.



> Naruto had nothing to do with that fight. He was just shouting. He decided to get involved later by challenging Neji and his views on destiny. Anyway, who was Hinata fighting for?



Hinata was fighting to change herself. As she blacks out at the end of the fight, she asks if she was able to change a little.

Naruto was shouting. Naruto, the guy that Hinata admires and wants to be like, was cheering her on. He was telling her that she could do it. He was the one telling her to "kick that bastard's ass". Throughout the fight, Naruto was telling Hinata to get back up when she fell. Now, since Hinata loves Naruto, isn't she going to be affected by this? The boy she loves is cheering her on? Will that not make an impact on her? Will that not make him, in her eyes, relevant to her fight, as her fight now serves the purpose of proving herself to him?



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Against Pain, again, who was Hinata fighting for?




*Spoiler*: __ 



I am confused as to how you are using this for your original point, which was that she references Naruto whenever she challenges anyone. She challenged Pain in order to protect Naruto, therefore Naruto was relevant to that fight in anyone's terms.






> ...
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



My comment was that she is not just "following" Naruto. She is trying to be like him, but she is not trying to be just his shadow. 'Wanting to overtake him' means wanting to become better than him, which was my point.  Even "wanting to walk with him" implies being at least Naruto's equal, while "following" implies that she desires to remain as second to Naruto, which her comment clearly proves is not the case.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Catalyst, noun. Defintion 3: a person or thing that precipitates an event or *change*: His imprisonment by the government served as the catalyst that helped transform social unrest into revolution.

Is it not a change that Hinata was able to confess?  You say she had the courage packed inside, but is it not a change that she was able to use it? Is a change not a development from her previous inability to say anything about her feelings?


----------



## Hikui (May 13, 2009)

I don't know whether to butt in or not....oh well. 



Believe it!!! said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Sooo, she needs him to be on the brink of death to get her fangirling ass up and say something she's felt for three or more years? Even though she was supposed to gain his courage 300 chapters ago? *I don't think so. If anything, the fact he had to be dying proves it's not love.* If her feelings were that strong than she would have done it in chapter 98.




*Spoiler*: _manga spoiler_ 





:rofl

First, If Hinata had confessed back in chapter 98, we wouldn't be debating here. From a story-wise point of view, it would've been pointless if Part II was coming. Although, her getting rejected back then would have been positive for NaruSaku (or any Naruto pairing) and would've ended the pairing wars had Naruto accepted. BUT since that didn't happen speculation is out of the question. She didn't confessed because her character needed to grow more. 

Second, the fact that he had to be dying doesn't prove it is not true love. If it had been the same for Sakura, I seriously doubt you would be saying this. Back when she was introduced, she says 'she's not prepared'. She was planning on confessing, but she hadn't have the opportunity. She confessed when Naruto was 'dying' (how you put it) because she wasn't getting another shot. It was *now* or *never*. 

Just because Hinata confessed in that moment it doesn't mean it isn't tru lub, quite contrary. Kishimoto did that way to kill two birds with one shot. First, to trigger the Kyuubi. Second, to show that Hinata's feelings for Naruto were strong, and by extension developing Hinata into character closure (that still needs to be resolved). 

Honestly. Your questioning of Hinata's feelings at this point is just....how can I put it kindly....slow? It isn't a matter of whether people liked it or not or how it was done; it was pretty clear that her feelings for Naruto are serious and real. She was willing to *die protecting* him. Sakura's wants to "protect those two". Naruto want to protect "his important people". It's a theme. 

It's not as if Kishimoto decided to draw that scene saying: Now my readership will finally realize that Hinata doesn't love Naruto. And if:



> I don't think so. If anything, the fact he had to be dying proves it's not love.



Is the only argument you have to 'prove' Hinata doesn't love Naruto or that her love isn't legit then you must be in serious trouble. 

If that's not love, may I ask you what is? (Manga-wise, please)


----------



## Temp_Position (May 13, 2009)

Believe it!!! said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Sooo, she needs him to be on the brink of death to get her fangirling ass up and say something she's felt for three or more years? Even though she was supposed to gain his courage 300 chapters ago? I don't think so. If anything, the fact he had to be dying proves it's not love. If her feelings were that strong than she would have done it in chapter 98.



*Spoiler*: __ 






*Spoiler*: __ 



-The fact that she did jump in while no one did; not even Sakura, shows some kind of sincerity to her profession of love to him. Ch 98 is part.1 and is her base personality. Her base personality would have never jumped in to save Naruto. Besides, it was the Chuunin exam, so that would have embarassed him and her if she did that.


 

The Hinata now is more mature. She still has these feelings for him, but now she is a little more proactive, albeit, not by much. Every little improvement counts.


----------



## Kakugo (May 13, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> I'm sorry, what do you actually *mean* by saying that?  Are you trying to argue that Hinata doesn't know Naruto is being pursued by the Akatsuki?  Or are you making an argument that involves the pain Naruto felt when Gaara was killed?  Because no-one but another Jinchūriki really understands that pain, so singling out Hinata for not understanding that is a little harsh.
> 
> She knows his lonliness, his ability to get back up when he falls (proud failure), she knows his desire to be acknowledged.  Again, picking on Hinata for not thinking about Sasuke is a little harsh don't you think?  She gets little time as it is, and you want her to be able to demonstrate a complete understanding of Naruto's *entire* character before you'll accept her love as real.
> 
> I'll put it the same way as i have a number of times.  In many ways, Hinata has shown that she understands Naruto, and not just one aspect of him.  In what way has she shown that she does *not* understand him?  I'll be addressing what you said below in a second.



I think the main argument is that in comparison to what Sakura knows and understands of Naruto's position (especially considering they have always been together and that their relationship is much tighter,) Hinata simply does not understand to the same extent. How could she when their time together is as limited as it is? Excluding other jinchuuriki's who would know of Naruto's situation, there are really a hand full of people who have been alongside Naruto who could truly comprehend his thoughts and feelings in the matter of both being chased by Akatsuki as well as his journey to recover Sasuke, and among those people are Sakura, not Hinata.


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 13, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Sakura understands Naruto's loneliness as well.  I don't see how that understanding somehow makes Hinata special.



Iruka knows about the lonliness that Naruto felt as well.  As do other characters.  The point i was making was that Hinata's understanding of Naruto is not, as some people believe, one-dimensional.

Moving on from that, i wasn't comparing Hinata to other characters.  I was saying that from what Hinata has seen and understood of Naruto, she has fallen in love with him.  We have been given enough evidence to prove that.  The point of saying this is not that she understands *more* about Naruto than anyone else but that she understands *enough* to fall in love with him.

Conversely, i am not arguing that Sakura understands less about Naruto than Hinata does.  However, i *am* arguing that just because she does understand more of him it doesn't mean that she has romantic feelings for him.  Understanding more about someone doesn't make your feelings stronger than someone else's, or more romantic than someone else's.  I understand more about my brother than his girlfriend does, but i don't harbour romantic feelings for him just because my understanding is better.  Similarly, until we see an unambiguous panel where Sakura is looking at Naruto romantically, it isn't possible to argue that Sakura sees Naruto as anything more than a friend.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> I'll give you that one.  Hinata was just concerned.  But the _entire manga_ is full of things that are ultimately pointless.



I guess i'll give you a question.

How have Hinata's feelings for Naruto been projected in this manga?

Actually, sorry, that wasn't much of a question was it?

And neither was that...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Anyway, Hinata's feelings for Naruto have obviously been portrayed as positive throughout this story.  There is no negativity.  Her latest act has given Naruto a choice.

Now, we can sit here all day debating real world situations, manga evidence about Naruto's feelings and the likelihood that he will accept her.  But i've already written about why i don't think there's any reason for him to reject her.  So instead, this time i'll go with a look at the overarching theme that Hinata's feelings for Naruto have portrayed.

Kishimoto has been building up Hinata's feelings for Naruto througout this story.  He did not diminish them after the time skip, but increased them.  The events of chapter 437 finally gave rise to the confession hinted in chapter 282.

Moreover, as i have said, each interaction Naruto and Hinata have had has included a positive portrayal of Hinata's feelings.  Not only that, both Naruto and Hinata have positively influenced the other.  If we follow this theme, why would Kishimoto reverse the trend that he had built up over the course of the entire manga?  Because no matter what anyone says, a rejection by Naruto at this point would be a negative influence on Hinata.

I should make it clear that i'm not saying Naruto should accept Hinata because otherwise "he'd be a meanie! ".  After all, i believe there are legitimate reasons that Naruto would respond positively to her feelings.  However, the point i am making here is more about the general theme that has run through the NaruHina relationship.  They positively influence each other, and have done for the entire manga.

It ain't gonna change now.




Or it might.  I'm not gonna tell you what to think.  These are just my thoughts...


----------



## mystic868 (May 14, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _manga spoiler_ 



IMO Hinata's confession was made during her intervention because she wanted to tell him what her feelings truly are before she will die leaving Naruto unaware of it for rest of his life. And her mainly motive seemed to be to show him that she was working hard and was trying to be like him(always smiled and motivated) and that she achieved it(at least tried it came closer to his lifestyle level)


----------



## Forlong (May 14, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Iruka knows about the lonliness that Naruto felt as well.  As do other characters.  The point i was making was that Hinata's understanding of Naruto is not, as some people believe, one-dimensional.
> 
> Moving on from that, i wasn't comparing Hinata to other characters.  I was saying that from what Hinata has seen and understood of Naruto, she has fallen in love with him.  We have been given enough evidence to prove that.  The point of saying this is not that she understands *more* about Naruto than anyone else but that she understands *enough* to fall in love with him.
> 
> Conversely, i am not arguing that Sakura understands less about Naruto than Hinata does.  However, i *am* arguing that just because she does understand more of him it doesn't mean that she has romantic feelings for him.  Understanding more about someone doesn't make your feelings stronger than someone else's, or more romantic than someone else's.  I understand more about my brother than his girlfriend does, but i don't harbour romantic feelings for him just because my understanding is better.  Similarly, until we see an unambiguous panel where Sakura is looking at Naruto romantically, it isn't possible to argue that Sakura sees Naruto as anything more than a friend.


Ah, I was just getting confussed as to why so many people were saying "Hinata understands Naruto".  The arguemet really branched off there.



XXXTurkey said:


> Kishimoto has been building up Hinata's feelings for Naruto througout this story.  He did not diminish them after the time skip, but increased them.  The events of chapter 437 finally gave rise to the confession hinted in chapter 282.



Even with that, NaruHina isn't going to be resolved anytime soon, because the manga still has a ways to go.  They still have to...

*Spoiler*: __ 



...deal with Danzo, find Kabuto, hold the Kage Summit, kick Sasuke's ass, find Killer Bee, and defeat the Akatsuki.  That's about 100 chapters right there.

What I'm sure is going to happen here, regardless of which pairing becomes cannon, is that Naruto is going to spend time rethinking his feelings.  We've been given a hint that Sakura is going to go through the same thing.  It's not going to be completely resolved until the end of the whole story.

So this thread still has a good two years of life left in it.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 15, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Iruka knows about the lonliness that Naruto felt as well.  As do other characters.  The point i was making was that Hinata's understanding of Naruto is not, as some people believe, one-dimensional.



Iruka's loneliness came about from the death of his parents and Naruto's was brought out of alienation and having no family.  But Hinata's loneliness was basically self-inflicted because she withdrew from others.  Because even after her father gave up on her, she never went to her family, nor she tried to make friends.



XXXTurkey said:


> Moving on from that, i wasn't comparing Hinata to other characters.  I was saying that from what Hinata has seen and understood of Naruto, she has fallen in love with him.  We have been given enough evidence to prove that.  The point of saying this is not that she understands *more* about Naruto than anyone else but that she understands *enough* to fall in love with him.



That's a poor excuse to love someone.   To love someone not out of love itself, but out of necessity.



XXXTurkey said:


> Conversely, i am not arguing that Sakura understands less about Naruto than Hinata does.  However, i *am* arguing that just because she does understand more of him it doesn't mean that she has romantic feelings for him.  Understanding more about someone doesn't make your feelings stronger than someone else's, or more romantic than someone else's.



Nobody said that understanding more means romance.   But the closer a person to another, the better position you are to help them.

For instance, Sakura knew that Naruto was determined to rescue Sasuke and defended him from Sai, Kabuto, and Orochimaru's insults.

With Hinata, she knew Naruto enough through watching him that he was discouraged before his fight with Neji.   But later on......


*Spoiler*: __ 



She didn't demonstrate her understanding why Naruto was so determined in looking for Sasuke.

And she didn't know that Naruto had a personal grudge against Pain for killing Jiraiya and Kakashi (he doesn't know about Shizune yet), and destroying Konoha.






XXXTurkey said:


> Anyway, Hinata's feelings for Naruto have obviously been portrayed as positive throughout this story.  There is no negativity.  Her latest act has given Naruto a choice.



Not really, because he's never had feelings for her.



XXXTurkey said:


> Kishimoto has been building up Hinata's feelings for Naruto througout this story.  He did not diminish them after the time skip, but increased them.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Eh, no he hasn't.   All Hinata does is "Naruto-kun!"

Chuunin Exam, we see she has a crush on him.   And in the Prelims, we learn why she liked Naruto, because he gave her courage.

Then we don't see her again until the end of Part 1, where she "stalks" him as he leaves. 

We don't see her again until Chapter 282 where she faints at his appearance.   (There was no hint at any confession at all).


*Spoiler*: __ 



Then Chapter 354, she teams up with him and not one time shows anything but constant figiting and worrying over Naruto.   I don't see any development at all.

And finally comes the Konoha invasion.   She does nothing until Naruto gets pinned and she saves him.   Used as a plot device like she has throughout the manga (test copy, encouragement, X-ray, and Kyuubi Release).




Outside of the last event, none of these are significant romantic moments that justify NaruHina.



XXXTurkey said:


> Moreover, as i have said, each interaction Naruto and Hinata have had has included a positive portrayal of Hinata's feelings.  Not only that, both Naruto and Hinata have positively influenced the other.  If we follow this theme, why would Kishimoto reverse the trend that he had built up over the course of the entire manga?  Because no matter what anyone says, a rejection by Naruto at this point would be a negative influence on Hinata.



Last I checked, Naruto had a positive influence on everyone he came across in the manga.   You know, it's that gift thing that keeps being hinted.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 15, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> I'm sorry, what do you actually *mean* by saying that?  Are you trying to argue that Hinata doesn't know Naruto is being pursued by the Akatsuki?  Or are you making an argument that involves the pain Naruto felt when Gaara was killed?  Because no-one but another Jinchūriki really understands that pain, so singling out Hinata for not understanding that is a little harsh.



Oh, I see.  It's not important for Hinata to know how much pain Naruto is in when it comes to being a Jinchuuriki and missing his best friend.  


And yes, Sakura doesn't know exactly of Naruto's pain of being a Jinchuuriki, but she knows enough that she shed tears for his sake in Chapter 261.  And more afterwards.



XXXTurkey said:


> In many ways, Hinata has shown that she understands Naruto, and not just one aspect of him.  In what way has she shown that she does *not* understand him?  I'll be addressing what you said below in a second.



Nice reverseal, there.   But again, she doesn't know about his pain in being a Jinchuuriki, Sasuke, and more.   All she knew back in the Chuunin Exam that "he's lonely like me, but I like him because he gets up again.  And I want to be like that".

That's not love, that's admiration.  And her to pursuit love for that, is selfish.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Don't forget, she actually admits to this in her confession.






XXXTurkey said:


> Hinata reacts because she is *concerned*.  It's one of those things that comes out of *loving* someone.  The feeling is not 100% rational, and to expect it to be is ridiculous.  More importantly, how do you think that scene is meant to be read?  Do you think that Kishimoto has included that scene because he wanted to demonstrate that Hinata does not understand Naruto?  If so, it is a very convoluted way of doing something that should be ultimately pointless if he is eventually going to make a different pairing canon.  Again, i'm returning to something i've said before.  Hinata's feelings for Naruto have been portrayed positively throughout this manga and you're reading it against how it is meant to be read.  Your bias against NaruHina is affecting how you read that scene.



He who is without sin cast the first stone....

You don't have to be in love with someone to be concerned for them.  And last I checked, she wasn't alone in the concern department.  

And the rest, you will see in the other replies. 



XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> When you say "chatting with Pain" you make it sound so nonchalant.  He's trapped, and admits so himself.  And again, saying "disregarding his wishes" sounds so negative when her feelings are blantantly not meant to be taken as such.



Naruto never admitted such a thing.

And who cares about negativity.  If you don't like it, then don't post.   There isn't going to be positive feelings in a debate, that I promise you.



XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Similarly, you say "throwing her life away".  You're ignoring her saying "i'm not afraid of *protecting* you".  That's where her intentions lie.  She's not afraid to die, if it is by *protecting* him, no matter how futile.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hey, even the other characters said her actions were stupid.   Especially when her efforts yielded no results.






XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL, I'm being negative for pointing out that Hinata herself admitted?  

Guess what, she said it.  Get over it.   If you don't like it, take it up with Kishimoto.



XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And the comment of Sakura "chewing her out" is just not true.  "...Don't ever try anything crazy like that again..." is what Sakura says.  Pay attention to the pauses and the lack of an exclaimation mark.  Say it to yourself out loud.  Sakura is expressing her *concern*.  But again, you're reading that panel negatively... read it without bias, and tell me what you see.



Last I checked, crazy is a synonym of stupid.   And the pauses and exclaimation marks don't change anything.




XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> One, none of Naruto, Hinata nor Pain know that he might be able to get up at that point.  Hinata and Pain certainly don't know, and i don't think that Naruto does either.



Mute point, because it's a "what if" issue.   But still her actions was stupid.



XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Two, Naruto only manages to resist Pain's chakra rods when he is in both Sage mode *and* uses the Kyuubi chakra.  When he is pinned down he is able to use neither.




*Spoiler*: _Ahem_ 



Naruto wasn't in Sage mode nor Kyuubi mode when stabbing the rod in him, in looking for Nagato.

Also Jiraiya and Kakashi resisted Pain's influence as well.

So it's not about chakra, but willpower that overrides Pain's control.







XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Importantly, because Hinata doesn't know that Naruto might be able to escape, she sees the person she loves trapped and about to be taken away.  What does she have to do.  She has to *try* to save him.  It proves she loves him.



So then you shouldn't have disagree about Naruto saving Sakura is love as well.  



XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> But her actions aren't just a Kyuubi trigger.  What kind of mental state was Naruto in while Pain was lecturing him, demanding his answer for peace?  Naruto didn't have the answer, and seemed to be also resigned to being taken away.  Hinata, by stepping in, confessing and attacking Pain, showed Naruto that he *could not give up*.



*Spoiler*: __ 






*Spoiler*: __ 



Uh, how can he "not give up" if he was mentally screwed up?  Or do you not recall him crying out for help inside his own mind?






XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Said it in the manga, people thought Hinata's actions were stupid.   If you don't like it, take it up with Kishimoto.




And if you don't like what I have to say, then don't read my posts.   But I certainly not going to put Hinata up on a pedetal that she doesn't deserve to be on.



XXXTurkey said:


> More importantly, stop reading Hinata's actions in the manga as negative when they are so obviously not meant to be seen as such.  Your bias is affecting how you read all of this.
> 
> I'm not arguing that i'm unbiased, but i truly believe that Kishimoto is portraying Hinata as a positive character.  Why read her actions as negative when she is meant to be seen as positive?



Excuse me, but it's a free world and I can post negatively all I want.  If you don't like it then don't come to this thread and debate.

And if not glorifying and worshiping Hinata is bias, then so be it.   But I'm not going to give her more credit than she deserves.


----------



## Kaekoro (May 15, 2009)

I seriously think it'll be 50+ chapters before this gets resolved. NaruSaku has more evidence, NaruHina has more momentum.


----------



## Forlong (May 15, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



No one cares about Shizune.






Kaekoro said:


> I seriously think it'll be 50+ chapters before this gets resolved. NaruSaku has more evidence, NaruHina has more momentum.



I'm not sure I understand what you mean by more momentium.


----------



## mystic868 (May 15, 2009)

Forlong said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah what momentium means to you?


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 15, 2009)

By momentum he probably means that the emotional impact of such events can drag NaruHina somewhere.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 15, 2009)

Kaekoro said:


> I seriously think it'll be 50+ chapters before this gets resolved. NaruSaku has more evidence, NaruHina has more momentum.



I wouldn't say NaruHina has more momentum, just yet.   Especially after one significant moment.

For it to have real momentum, you need a second significant moment to justify it.   Else that moment was just another plot device.


----------



## Afalstein (May 15, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> I wouldn't say NaruHina has more momentum, just yet.   Especially after one significant moment.
> 
> For it to have real momentum, you need a second significant moment to justify it.   Else that moment was just another plot device.



True.  But would you say the two moments also have to be close together?  Because otherwise, another arguably significant moment was Naruto's conversation with Hinata at the Chunin exams.  That was a while ago, though, so it doesn't really count as momentum if you're thinking in terms of a bunch of significant moments.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



To some extent, though, the recent confession does have a certain amount of momentum, it begs follow-up of some kind.  I mean, it's not like Kishi is going to pretend it never happened. Thus most NaruHina fans live in hopes of another significant moment in the near future.



Perhaps we could say that NaruHina seems to move faster (when it moves) then NaruSaku.  Granted, it doesn't move very often, but when it does, it tends to leap forward.  This isn't really surprising, given Kishi's lack of skill in Romance, but it's the main problem most people have with the pairing.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 15, 2009)

I don't think Kishimoto lacks skill in romance when it comes to how things just are. Hinata is utterly fixated on Naruto for her motivation to change. Sakura was utterly fixated on Sasuke for her desire to be acknowledged by him for probable confidence reasons [god only knows]. Neither boys have seemed to be intrigued by this in an effective way for romance. Which is why I think neither will happen.


----------



## Believe it!!! (May 15, 2009)

Momentium sounds like an element.


----------



## Temp_Position (May 15, 2009)

More than likely no one is getting paired with anyone, even after 100+ chapters. Everything is going to be about dealing with all the politics, getting Sasuke home and hokage. 

I think that kishimoto tries to find reasons behind everyones motivation. I dont think he really cares about the outcome, especially romantic ones. He only cares about how it helps/hinders the characters development. If this was shojo, than he would have too. Pairing ppl up is optional in shonen. He has so much ground to cover besides the romance that you might not even see any development. 

Hinata's motivation for improving herself is her admiration of Naruto's determination and his ambition to be the best despite the odds. Sakura's motivation for being a good ninja is to be strong enough so that she can actually protect and fight alongside Sasuke and Naruto. Sakura's crush on Sasuke shows a similarity between her and Naruto. Her feelings for being accepted by Sasuke and Naruto's feelings of being accepted by everyone, esp Sasuke is strong enough motivation for them to be obsessed about bringing him home. I have no idea what Sasuke or Naruto feel for the girls, but whether they respond or not wouldnt affect the plot.  

I dont think NaruHina has more momentum. Maybe a better word would be some potential.


----------



## Forlong (May 15, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Perhaps we could say that NaruHina seems to move faster (when it moves) then NaruSaku.  Granted, it doesn't move very often, but when it does, it tends to leap forward.  This isn't really surprising, given Kishi's lack of skill in Romance, but it's the main problem most people have with the pairing.


Yeah, that makes more sense to me.  Thanks.



Believe it!!! said:


> Momentium sounds like an element.



Oh, it is.  And it's extremely volatile!  Do not handle it without a trained Momentologist nearby.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 15, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> True.  But would you say the two moments also have to be close together?  Because otherwise, another arguably significant moment was Naruto's conversation with Hinata at the Chunin exams.  That was a while ago, though, so it doesn't really count as momentum if you're thinking in terms of a bunch of significant moments.



Technically I would agree, but normally you would need that something that would bind that moment, like memories of of those events.


*Spoiler*: _And since_ 



Hinata confessed to Naruto after waiting all these years for her to do it, for that momentum to continue, Naruto would have to actually think about his affection for Hinata.   Else it wouldn't make sense for him to end up with her, if he didn't show any love.






Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> To some extent, though, the recent confession does have a certain amount of momentum, it begs follow-up of some kind.  I mean, it's not like Kishi is going to pretend it never happened. Thus most NaruHina fans live in hopes of another significant moment in the near future.




*Spoiler*: __ 



In western eyes it would beg a follow up.  But in Japanese manga, there has been times where girls confessions were never requitted.  So we just don't know.






Afalstein said:


> Perhaps we could say that NaruHina seems to move faster (when it moves) then NaruSaku.  Granted, it doesn't move very often, but when it does, it tends to leap forward.  This isn't really surprising, given Kishi's lack of skill in Romance, but it's the main problem most people have with the pairing.



Well, I guess you can say that.  For it parallels SasuSaku in many ways, which was quick in it's development.  But I personally still view NaruSaku like a small gradient, where it's going to take the entire manga to develop.

Now since Kishimoto doesn't really know romance, he sticks to cliches.  And in like other battle mangas, any relationships occur at the end.   So we really don't know until then.   


*Spoiler*: __ 



But right now, the next couple of chapters is "cure or kill" for NaruHina.  

If Naruto talks to Hinata, then the possibilities of NaruHina are strong.   Definite if he requits (which I think would be odd for Naruto to do, since he never had feelings for her).


Also, let's not forget about Sakura.   Kishimoto giving her that one panel in realizing that Hinata loved Naruto.  Which isn't something for us to write-off.


----------



## Dylan (May 15, 2009)

I have never really like the whole idea of shippind NaruHina. Naruto being some really little eager kid and Hinata being a really quite, shy girl. I think by this they are the complete opposite to eachother and never should have really taken any interest whatsoever.

My opinion on NaruSaku. Well, i always thought this would be a ship as i started to see their friendship grow thorughout the episodes. I always thought that she would fall in love with one of them but i always thought it would be Naruto for the fact that he was the main character. But then i thought he might say something stupid like, i can't have a girlfriend because i might put her in harms way with the people i fight. Like a spider-man kinda quote or something. Anyways, overall, a good ship imo.

As i pointed out in the last paragraph. Never going to work. I thought that she fancied Sasuke, but actually loved Naruto. So she would have had to choose out of the two.


----------



## Hikui (May 15, 2009)

I know this is between XXXTurkey and you but I just had to but in, there are just some arguments I really disagree on. Hope you don't mind. 



XXXTurkey said:


> Moving on from that, i wasn't comparing Hinata to other characters.  I was saying that from what Hinata has seen and understood of Naruto, she has fallen in love with him.  We have been given enough evidence to prove that.  The point of saying this is not that she understands *more* about Naruto than anyone else but that she understands *enough* to fall in love with him.





Tyrannos said:


> That's a poor excuse to love someone.   To *love someone not out of love* itself, *but* out of *necessity*.



XXXTurkey never stated that. I read it again and again and don't get where you got that impression. Just pointing it out. 



XXXTurkey said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And she didn't know that Naruto had a personal grudge against Pain for killing Jiraiya and Kakashi (he doesn't know about Shizune yet), and destroying Konoha.




*Spoiler*: __ 



So she didn't know. I don't see the point. What does that have to do with her love for him? And she knew about the destruction of Konoha, she was there remember? Just pointing it out. 







Tyrannos said:


> We don't see her again until Chapter 282 where she faints at his appearance.   (There was no hint at any confession at all).



Wrong, check it out again: Q shigan 

She said, "I'm not ready." You might think of facing him again after such a long time, but back in the chunnin exams when she actually talked to him she never said "I'm not ready". Ready for what? It isn't a stretch to say she wasn't ready to face him, because she wanted to confess. 

That said, from a story-wise point of view, a confession was needed from Hinata side so her character could get a closure. Whether that means she will rejected or not, it's a completely different thing. 



Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



 Noting happens in 354, in 355 however there's this: Q shigan Just pointing out Kakashi said "You're a Jinchuuriki" to Naruto in Hinata's presence.  

Kishimoto showed Hinata was worried for Naruto in that mission, so we the audience could point out that she still has romantic feelings for him, that would make sense with the previous belief that she wants to confess. 
In the Pain invasion arc Hinata didn't intervene at first because it was obvious Naruto wanted to fight by himself, she intervened until it she thought Naruto had no chance, and that she might actually make a difference (protecting him) and of course to confess. To say she was only a plot device, is too much of a stretch because in the long run every single character is a plot device. So don't go there. 






Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Outside of the last event, none of these are significant romantic moments that justify NaruHina.



May I remind you that NaruSaku doesn't have any significant 100% romantic moment that can be considered without a doubt by most if not all the audience as romantic? The closest it gets is: "Sakura is a girl I sort of really like" and "I finally understand why I like Sakura-chan" from Naruto in chapter three. Lol at the double standards. 



Tyrannos said:


> That's not love, that's admiration.  And her to pursuit love for that, is selfish.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Kishimoto is very forward with character relationships. If Hinata says she loves Naruto, she loves Naruto....she won't be confusing admiration with love. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't want to go in circles with the selfish thing. Just ugh. Giving your life for the person you love, in order to protect him is about as selfless as it can get. She said it was selfish because she was doing it for her own reasons (loving him).






Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, even the other characters said her actions were stupid.   Especially when her efforts yielded no results.



*Spoiler*: __ 



So Sakura saying: "you shouldn't have done that" is the same than saying "You were stupid", now?  And her efforts yielded results....
Pain 'killing her' enabled Naruto to meet his father, get out of his pinned down position, use Kyuubi, etc. 




I'm not putting Hinata in the pedestal saying she's the purest and loveliest character in the manga yadda yadda, but most of this claims don't make much sense. 

I'm out.


----------



## Afalstein (May 15, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> In western eyes it would beg a follow up.  But in Japanese manga, there has been times where girls confessions were never requitted.  So we just don't know.




*Spoiler*: __ 



True, I imagine.  But I'm also told that it's very uncommon in Japanese manga for the the confession of a SHY girl to go unrequited.  But again, we don't really know.  My point was that some kind of follow-up IS expected, positive or otherwise. Like you say, "cure or kill" time. 






Tyrannos said:


> Well, I guess you can say that.  For it parallels SasuSaku in many ways, which was quick in it's development.  But I personally still view NaruSaku like a small gradient, where it's going to take the entire manga to develop.
> 
> Now since Kishimoto doesn't really know romance, he sticks to cliches.  And in like other battle mangas, any relationships occur at the end.   So we really don't know until then.
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



True.  Relationships do occur at the end.  But c'mon, Naruto just took down the friggin' leader of the Akatsuki.  Pretty much the only major villains left are Madarra, Danzou, and Sasuke, and I feel like those all have to go together.  Granted, Kishi's writing style means that even one battle could take over a year to finish, but things are wrapping up, more or less.  Especially if Naruto suddenly decides to go off on a training trip.




Very definitely.  These next couple chapters will be immensely important in deciding the debate.  Once Naruto gets back to Konoha, that is.  That's partly why I don't think Kishi will actually take Naruto back to Konoha for a while, just so he can drag it out for a while.

Some have argued, however, that even if Naruto requits her love, it might simply fade away later to show a deeper affection for Sakura.  Or Hinata might be killed afterwards to awaken the full nine-tails.  


*Spoiler*: __ 





And no, lets not write off Sakura.  No one should try and do that.  She's obviously a major character and obviously her knowledge of Hinata's devotion will have an affect on her behavior.  Currently it seems like she and Naruto are the only ones aware of "why" Hinata ran in to save Naruto.  

But the question is what effect that knowledge will have.  It might help Sakura to see Naruto in a romantic light herself, since arguably she was moving there and this will suddenly awaken her to what she feels.  On the other hand, the knowledge might also cause any newly-awakening feelings to recede back.  After all, now she knows someone who does love Naruto, and she herself, by most accounts, isn't sure whether she does or not.  So she might stop investigating the idea just because she doesn't want to sideswipe Hinata. 

On the other hand, some people (not you), feel inclined to write off Hinata's entire confession scene, so from that standpoint, writing off Sakura's panel isn't that hard.


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 16, 2009)

This is an incredibly quick post cos i'm about to go to bed.  Sorry *Louchan*, i'm gonna get round to replying... 

Basically, to *Tyrannos*:

I think you misunderstood my post.  My point was that Naruto and Hinata's relationship has been portrayed as positive throughout the manga *by Kishimoto*.

You can *say* i'm turing the argument around, but there isn't any negativity supplied *by the author*.  When i was saying you were being negative, i wasn't saying "stop being negative, you're attacking poor Hinata's perfect character" i was saying "stop being negative, this positivity has all come from the dude writing this story".

Naruto's positive influence on Hinata and Hinata's positive influence on Naruto was created *by Kishimoto*.  It has nothing to do with me, or putting Hinata on any sort of surface, raised or not.



			
				Hikui said:
			
		

> Kishimoto is very forward with character relationships. If Hinata says she loves Naruto, she loves Naruto....she won't be confusing admiration with love.



Basically this.  Again, Kishimoto is the one writing the words Hinata says, you have to remember that.

And like i concluded before.  With the positivity that has been evident throughout their relationship, visible *on both sides*, i can't see something negative like a rejection.  It would turn against everything Kishi has portrayed so far between the two of them.


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## izzyisozaki (May 16, 2009)

Sad how rejection is so demonized. A person can't love someone they don't no matter how positive it is.


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## JERITROLL (May 16, 2009)

^Yeah, seriously.... If you don't love the girl/guy, just tell them, it's not gonna kill 'em...



XXXTurkey said:


> Naruto's positive influence on Hinata and Hinata's positive influence on Naruto was created *by Kishimoto*.  It has nothing to do with me, or putting Hinata on any sort of surface, raised or not.
> 
> Basically this.  Again, Kishimoto is the one writing the words Hinata says, you have to remember that.
> 
> And like i concluded before.  With the positivity that has been evident throughout their relationship, visible *on both sides*, i can't see something negative like a rejection.  It would turn against everything Kishi has portrayed so far between the two of them.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Kishi might be the one writing her character, but Kishi is the narrator. He is not obligated to agree with his characters POV. An excellent example of this is Sasuke. He constantly portrays his actions as negative in a fashion similar to the way that the others reacted to Hinata's actions. 




This isn't a new concept, and sometimes the characters can come across the way you're portraying Hinata as well. For example in another literary work, Stephen Crane's  The Red Badge of Courage. He constantly butchers his main character's POV, and yet one can feel for said character.

Yes, we're comparing apples to oranges, but my point is that it might be possible (again, this is from my biased eyes) that he is trying to make a point w/ Hinata. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



But we're discussing events that haven't been wrapped up, so it can go either way. Patience, our answer should be weeks away (remember, Naruto isn't that far from Kohona, and rebuilding it is going to be priority).


----------



## Forlong (May 16, 2009)

Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Noting happens in 354, in 355 however there's this: against Sakura and Naruto Just pointing out Kakashi said "You're a Jinchuuriki" to Naruto in Hinata's presence.



*Spoiler*: __ 



What bugged me about that was that there is no reaction shot of Hinata at this revelation.  Sakura turns into a human hose-pipe learning about Naruto being a Jinchuriki, but we see nothing of the sort with Hinata.  It's like Kishi-sensei is _deliberately_ trying to annoy us. 






Hikui said:


> May I remind you that NaruSaku doesn't have any significant 100% romantic moment that can be considered without a doubt by most if not all the audience as romantic? The closest it gets is: "Sakura is a girl I sort of really like" and "I finally understand why I like Sakura-chan" from Naruto in chapter three. Lol at the double standards.



*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm not sure, but doesn't Sakura offering to feed Naruto count?  That is a romantic gesture.






Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to go in circles with the selfish thing. Just ugh. Giving your life for the person you love, in order to protect him is about as selfless as it can get. She said it was selfish because she was doing it for her own reasons (loving him).


Hinata only said that to be cool.



Afalstein said:


> Some have argued, however, that even if Naruto requits her love, it might simply fade away later to show a deeper affection for Sakura.  Or Hinata might be killed afterwards to awaken the full nine-tails.


Oh, he'd better not try to kill off _my_ Hinata again! 



Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And no, lets not write off Sakura.  No one should try and do that.  She's obviously a major character and obviously her knowledge of Hinata's devotion will have an affect on her behavior.  Currently it seems like she and Naruto are the only ones aware of "why" Hinata ran in to save Naruto.



*Spoiler*: __ 



I think Neji has been able to figure it out.


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## Tyrannos (May 16, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> I think you misunderstood my post.  My point was that Naruto and Hinata's relationship has been portrayed as positive throughout the manga *by Kishimoto*
> 
> You can *say* i'm turing the argument around, but there isn't any negativity supplied *by the author*.  When i was saying you were being negative, i wasn't saying "stop being negative, you're attacking poor Hinata's perfect character" i was saying "stop being negative, this positivity has all come from the dude writing this story".
> 
> Naruto's positive influence on Hinata and Hinata's positive influence on Naruto was created *by Kishimoto*.  It has nothing to do with me, or putting Hinata on any sort of surface, raised or not.



What realationship with Hinata?  He barely knows her, which he clearly demonstrated in Chapter 98 in misjudging her.

And as I pointed out, she doesn't really know him outside the determined little boy whose searching for acceptance.  Because Hinata never learned or cared about why he was doing it.

Also, positivity doesn't guarantee NaruHina becoming canon.   Just look at SasuSaku, a very negative pairing.  Yet there are many here who defends such a pairing.




XXXTurkey said:


> Basically this.  Again, Kishimoto is the one writing the words Hinata says, you have to remember that.
> 
> And like i concluded before.  With the positivity that has been evident throughout their relationship, visible *on both sides*, i can't see something negative like a rejection.  It would turn against everything Kishi has portrayed so far between the two of them.



Sorry, but that's extremely naive of you.  You really expect Naruto to accept Hinata's affect, when he doesn't know her?   And when he's never shown her any affection?  

Let me ask you this. Would you accept love from a person of the opposite gender that you barely know?

I think not.



Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> True, I imagine.  But I'm also told that it's very uncommon in Japanese manga for the the confession of a SHY girl to go unrequited.  But again, we don't really know.  My point was that some kind of follow-up IS expected, positive or otherwise. Like you say, "cure or kill" time.



See, you said you were "told".  But how many mangas have you seen that the Shy girl has her feelings requited? 

Mind you, we talking about Shonen and not Shoujo stories here.



Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tyrannos (May 16, 2009)

Hikui said:


> XXXTurkey never stated that. I read it again and again and don't get where you got that impression. Just pointing it out.



Look at that last line:



			
				XXXTurkey said:
			
		

> The point of saying this is not that she understands more about Naruto than anyone else *but that she understands enough to fall in love with him*.



Understands enough to fall in love with him?   

You don't have to understand someone to fall in love with someone.  He makes like Hinata loves Naruto because they are were both alone and not her trying to be acknowledged by others.   That's my point.



Hikui said:


> Wrong, check it out again: missle
> 
> She said, "I'm not ready." You might think of facing him again after such a long time, but back in the chunnin exams when she actually talked to him she never said "I'm not ready". Ready for what? It isn't a stretch to say she wasn't ready to face him, because she wanted to confess.
> 
> That said, from a story-wise point of view, a confession was needed from Hinata side so her character could get a closure. Whether that means she will rejected or not, it's a completely different thing.



No, you assume she was thinking about confessing.  

To me, she simply wasn't ready to face Naruto after all these years.  Which is much more different since Naruto was gone for 3 years, and trained with Jiraiya (and becoming much stronger).  While in the Chuunin Exam, at best she didn't see Naruto for days or weeks within the village.



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah, and did we get a reaction out of Hinata?  No we did not.   Which means she doesn't know what a Jinchuuriki is.  (Remember, not even educated people like Sakura knew.  And Naruto being the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki is top secret).

And Hinata's always worried about Naruto.  It's gotten to the point it's extremely annoying.  Even in the anime!  





*Spoiler*: _As for the Plot Device_ 



Then preytell how do you explain Kabutomaru?   And Pain admitingly using Hinata to trigger Naruto?

That's a plot device by definition, my dear.






Hikui said:


> May I remind you that NaruSaku doesn't have any significant 100% romantic moment that can be considered without a doubt by most if not all the audience as romantic? The closest it gets is: "Sakura is a girl I sort of really like" and "I finally understand why I like Sakura-chan" from Naruto in chapter three. Lol at the double standards.




*Spoiler*: __ 



True, SasuSaku and NaruHina have their confession scenes.   

But need I remind you that Naruto vowing to protect Sakura is a very significant moment in Japan?   (Vowing to protect someone is a the most significant romantic thing you can say in Japan.  More powerful than a simple, "I love you".)

And lets not for get how Chapter 343 was very romantic to Naruto himself, until Sai and Kakashi ruined it.  And Chapter 297's cutoff is significant as well, because it's obviously to be resolved later.






Hikui said:


> Kishimoto is very forward with character relationships. If Hinata says she loves Naruto, she loves Naruto....she won't be confusing admiration with love.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



By your own logic, that would mean NaruSaku is more significant.  



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, you are!  


*Spoiler*: __ 





> "you shouldn't have done that" is the same than saying "You were stupid", now?



Well gee, yes it is the same thing.  It's just a more polite way of saying it.  



> Pain 'killing her' enabled Naruto to meet his father, get out of his pinned down position, use Kyuubi, etc.



*That is what a plot device is!*


----------



## kstark2009 (May 16, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I think NaruSaku Will never be
because I believe Sakura will get a very important role ,,to bring Sasuke back??
and it would be very bizarr if naruto and sakura holding hands while they try to defeat sasuke. or something like that!


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## Forlong (May 16, 2009)

kstark2009 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't think we need tags for this, but okay.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I think that's the point.  Sasuke will return to the Leaf Village on square one.  He will be aliened by the villagers, and Naruto given respect and sympathy.  See where I'm going with this?

So far, I have shown how NaruSaku will eventually induce character development in Sasuke, Hinata, Naruto, and Sakura.  How does SasuSaku bring character developement to Sakura?  To Sasuke?  To Naruto?


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## Hikui (May 16, 2009)

Forlong said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> What bugged me about that was that there is no reaction shot of Hinata at this revelation.  Sakura turns into a human hose-pipe learning about Naruto being a Jinchuriki, but we see nothing of the sort with Hinata.  It's like Kishi-sensei is _deliberately_ trying to annoy us.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I was just pointing it out, not going to debate about it. I too am annoyed about the lack of reaction, but it might just be Kishimoto being either careless (he forgot she didn't know?) or he didn't want to give it importance/she knew (because he doesn't want to lose panel time showing that or whatever). Back in the anime they know, and their reactions are pretty lame if you ask me. Maybe it isn't so much of a deal? Who knows...






Forlong said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure, but doesn't Sakura offering to feed Naruto count?  That is a romantic gesture.




*Spoiler*: __ 



It could count but some people still disregard it as not 100% romantic, so no.






Forlong said:


> Hinata only said that to be cool.


Of course. 
.....





Tyrannos said:


> Look at that last line:
> 
> Understands enough to fall in love with him?
> 
> You don't have to understand someone to fall in love with someone.  He makes like Hinata loves Naruto because they are were both alone and not her trying to be acknowledged by others.   That's my point.



Just a while ago people where saying Hinata couldn't love Naruto because she didn't understand him....now you say she must love because of love....which is it? 

XXXTurkey only point was that if Hinata needed reasons, she knew enough about Naruto to fall for him. period. She fell in love with Naruto because of how he was, it wasn't love at first sight. Just like Sakura will fall in love with him, if she does. There are reasons and that doesn't make their love any less. But I sort of get where you come from...so I think you misunderstood. 



Tyrannos said:


> No, you assume she was thinking about confessing.
> 
> To me, she simply wasn't ready to face Naruto after all these years.  Which is much more different since Naruto was gone for 3 years, and trained with Jiraiya (and becoming much stronger).  While in the Chuunin Exam, at best she didn't see Naruto for days or weeks within the village.



Like you assume Yamato was talking about love, am I right? 
It's interpretation I guess...and I did say it wasn't such an stretch....the confession wasn't out of the blue, that's the point. 



Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Already addressed this. It's Kishimoto's fault. Maybe she already knew....but that's a stretch. Who knows, maybe she doesn't make such a big deal because she doesn't know how dangerous that is? Who knows. It's more Kishimoto being neglectful than Hinata's character. I highly doubt he wanted to draw a "OMG, Naruto is a Jinchuuriki!" scene, so he might as well just made us assume they knew. 






Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: _As for the Plot Device_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I already accepted this. Every character is plot device, dear. 


> Definition: A plot device is a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot of the story









Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm sorry but Hinata said she was protecting Naruto. She had two of the most significant romantic things you can DO in Japan, protect someone and confess. 
And note what I said, 100% romantic. The problem with those moments is that they can be interpreted in lots of ways (because Kishimoto is particularly ambiguous), and you know what happens when the assumption is wrong even when the logic is good? You might be mistaken. 






Tyrannos said:


> By your own logic, that would mean NaruSaku is more significant.



How's that? :amazed Although, if you're willing to talk about NaruSaku in a platonic light then you are right. Team 7 is more significant. 



Tyrannos said:


> Yes, you are!


I am?  
I just said Hinata loves Naruto is that such a bad thing? And that she protected Naruto....those things are canon.



Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Oh really? It was more like a: That was too risky, you had to be more careful. I don't get the reason as to why Sakura would be mean. Even if she's in love with Naruto, she must be glad Hinata did something to stop Pain....
Sakura being negative about it just harms her character more than it helps her. 






Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know


----------



## Kaekoro (May 17, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



When the big NaruSaku moment of Part II died in the cradle, I felt the exact same for the NaruHina moment when it happened... Kishimoto doesn't even know which couple he'll choose and we're going to be left in the air until the end. We will probably see NaruSaku and NaruHina moments here and there up until the last chapter or so.


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## kstark2009 (May 17, 2009)

Kaekoro said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> When the big NaruSaku moment of Part II died in the cradle, I felt the exact same for the NaruHina moment when it happened... Kishimoto doesn't even know which couple he'll choose and we're going to be left in the air until the end. We will probably see NaruSaku and NaruHina moments here and there up until the last chapter or so.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I cant remember a big NaruSaku moment in part 2 ^^
I remember a thing with yamato but that wasnt realy a thing.
If you ask me there were more NaruGaara, NaruSasu, NaruJira and NaruIruka   moments as their were NaruSaku xDDD
well its just my oppinion ^,-


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## Tyrannos (May 17, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Just a while ago people where saying Hinata couldn't love Naruto because she didn't understand him....now you say she must love because of love....which is it?
> 
> XXXTurkey only point was that if Hinata needed reasons, she knew enough about Naruto to fall for him. period. She fell in love with Naruto because of how he was, it wasn't love at first sight. Just like Sakura will fall in love with him, if she does. There are reasons and that doesn't make their love any less. But I sort of get where you come from...so I think you misunderstood.


 
As I said, Hinata loved him simply because she views them as kindred spirits. And admired Naruto's determination to fight that. But yet, she doesn't know anything beyond that Naruto. She doesn't care why he's after Sasuke, she hasn't demonstrated any understanding why he's being hunted. Which in the end is pretty narrow-minded thinking.

But Sakura, throughout the manga time and again, Kishimoto gives her moments to reflect on Naruto and over time she starts to understand him to the point she's defending him.

Frankly, I would love a woman who takes the time to learn the real me and not someone who only looks at one aspect of me. 




Hikui said:


> Like you assume Yamato was talking about love, am I right?
> 
> It's interpretation I guess...and I did say it wasn't such an stretch....the confession wasn't out of the blue, that's the point.


 
Well he certainly wasn't refering to Sakura's "lack of confidence". 

Whoever invented that assumption of "lack of confidence" was surely "drawing at straws" themselves.  



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Already addressed this. It's Kishimoto's fault. Maybe she already knew....but that's a stretch. Who knows, maybe she doesn't make such a big deal because she doesn't know how dangerous that is? Who knows. It's more Kishimoto being neglectful than Hinata's character. I highly doubt he wanted to draw a "OMG, Naruto is a Jinchuuriki!" scene, so he might as well just made us assume they knew.


 
Oh it's Kishimoto's fault now! 

Especially for neglecting Hinata, in not giving her a more important role in the story! 



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I already accepted this. Every character is plot device, dear.


 
Yeah, but some are more so than others. Look up FOIL sometimes. That's exactly what Hinata is. 



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but Hinata said she was protecting Naruto. She had two of the most significant romantic things you can DO in Japan, protect someone and confess. And note what I said, 100% romantic. The problem with those moments is that they can be interpreted in lots of ways (because Kishimoto is particularly ambiguous), and you know what happens when the assumption is wrong even when the logic is good? You might be mistaken.


 
You easily assume something that hasn't been proven. The defining moments will come in the upcoming chapters that will "cure or kill" that moment, and a pairing. 



Hikui said:


> How's that? Although, if you're willing to talk about NaruSaku in a platonic light then you are right. Team 7 is more significant.


 
And yet people easily dismiss the possibility that Sakura could very well be falling in love with Naruto. 



Hikui said:


> I am? I just said Hinata loves Naruto is that such a bad thing? And that she protected Naruto....those things are canon.


 
No, nothing wrong with that. But people are overglorifying the reality and expect love to burst out of thin air. That's what many have problems with.



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You forget Sakura's personality, she's quite blunt. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



If Sakura was glad Hinata saved Naruto, we surely would've seen something. But instead, we find her sulking at the realization Hinata is in love with Naruto.

And why is that? 

Could it be that Sakura actually could be falling in love with Naruto herself?


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## m o l o k o (May 17, 2009)

kstark2009 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It wasn?t a real thing because it could be interpreted as romantic, unlike the NaruGaara, NaruJira or NaruIruka moments (I won?t talk about NaruSasu here) which were there to symbolize friendship or a feeling of family between Naruto and these characters?


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## Kaekoro (May 17, 2009)

yalimei said:


> It wasn?t a real thing because it could be interpreted as romantic, unlike the NaruGaara, NaruJira or NaruIruka moments (I won?t talk about NaruSasu here) which were there to symbolize friendship or a feeling of family between Naruto and these characters?



It still shows far more mutual feelings than any other couple so far... NaruSaku has SOME hints of love from the two of them, SasuSaku has nearly none and NaruHina is completely one-sided in a romantic sense.


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## NeutraGena (May 17, 2009)

mmmm.
i think that Naruto and Sakura should be together.  Even though Hinata shows more feelings towards Naruto I don't really like the pairing.  And Sasuke doesn't like Sakura!  He thinks she's annoying because she is.  Sasuke is better off by himself for the moment.  Sakura just needs to get over Sasuke and choose Naruto already!!!  I mean she might be already jealous of Hinata because she confessed her love for him.


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## Renxx (May 17, 2009)

Kaekoro said:


> It still shows far more mutual feelings than any other couple so far... NaruSaku has SOME hints of love from the two of them, SasuSaku has nearly none and NaruHina is completely one-sided in a romantic sense.



The only moment NaruSaku fans _could_ call a romantic moment is the Yamato speech one. That is, if you take it out of context and forget Sakura's feeling of being a burden and useless in part 1, and returning in part 2 right here: "Can I learn the jutsu you [Yamato] used to stop Kyubi Naruto?" "No." " I can only do the dumbest things for Naruto." How could that be leading to her secret feelings of love for him? As long as she loved him, it would be ok to not be able to help him? If that's what Yamato was trying to get to, sure as hell makes no sense  
And how would making her realizing her feelings for him right there do the mission any good? She wouldn't be focusing on it, but on her new feelings for Naruto.
Which leads to: Why would Yamato adress the supposed feelings he saw Sakura had in the first place? Yamato is a captain, not a match-maker. Furthermore, he was willing to leave Naruto behind in the next chapter. How's that for caring about people's feelings? Oh and Sakura did not show any care for what Yamato was about to say afterwards. We are already 150 chapters after that, and she has yet to shown any flashback, or thought about what Yamato was trying to tell her. Or, even better, has yet to see Naruto in a romantic light.

About the other pairings... well, SasuSaku had at least 4 hints that I remember: Sasuke complimenting Sakura before the written test; Sasuke asking Sakura who had hurt her after waking up in CS state; Sakura being able to reach him and stopping his rampage; Sasuke (very consciously) letting Sakura hug him in the hospital, and even looks at her.

NaruHina has had development, no matter what some people say, and has the potential to become canon. Hinata has cheered Naruto up, said exactly what he needed to hear once, something Sakura has _never_ done. Naruto thanked her with a "A person like you, I really like!". Makes me wonder, with little screentime they have had together, their relationship by then had already got that far. How much closer to canon would they be now if she was a main character?  Naruto and Hinata have far more in common than Naruto and Sakura: Naruto wants the village's acknowledgment, was always laughed at because he was a failure, and was alone; while Hinata wants her clan's acknowledgment, was always considered weak in comparison to her younger sister and was alone too. In contrast, Sakura was teased because of her forehead, until she was took under Ino's wing. By then, Sakura's goal was Sasuke, and nothing to do with being stronger.
And, as Naruto stated in chapter 3, his reason for liking Sakura was because she wanted to be acknowledged. What will he think of Hinata once he knows about her story?


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## izzyisozaki (May 17, 2009)

Wow...SasuSaku's '4 hints' are so amazing and can't be friendship, unlike NaruSaku ...


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 17, 2009)

^If there was ever someone he consciously hugged, it was Naruto 

Seriously, anything the dude did to Sakura has to be analyzed to the core cos he never thought of her exclusively, EVER


----------



## Kathutet (May 17, 2009)

*For crying out loud.*

I'll be dividing this in many little quotes if you don't mind.



Ren said:


> The only moment NaruSaku fans _could_ call a romantic moment is the Yamato speech one.


Let's forget all about what Naruto said in several chapters before that happened, shall we?



> That is, if you take it out of context


Now, I believe ANS members liked to look at things in context.



> and forget Sakura's feeling of being a burden and useless in part 1


Don't forget part two.



> and returning in part 2 right here: "Can I learn the jutsu you [Yamato] used to stop Kyubi Naruto?" "No." " I can only do the dumbest things for Naruto." How could that be leading to her secret feelings of love for him?


Obviously because she doesn't want to lose him when he goes Kyuubi again. And that she doesn't want him to hurt himself because of his promise. Dear God.



> As long as she loved him, it would be ok to not be able to help him?


That's what people who love others do. Try to help in any ways possible.



> If that's what Yamato was trying to get to, sure as hell makes no sense


Who are you to say something doesn't make sense? 



> And how would making her realizing her feelings for him right there do the mission any good?


Who said it started there?



> She wouldn't be focusing on it, but on her new feelings for Naruto.


Not really. I sure wouldn't when I'm in the middle of a battle with two superdominant powers that use giant stretch-able swords and lasers to battle one another. Wth?



> Which leads to: Why would Yamato adress the supposed feelings he saw Sakura had in the first place?


That's what happens all over the manga. Kishi likes to fuck around.


> Yamato is a captain, not a match-maker.


So what? He's supposed to be a robot too?



> Furthermore, he was willing to leave Naruto behind in the next chapter.


While Naruto was in no direct danger and was capable of returning to the village. 
Not to mention that Yamato knows Naruto was getting very close to his goal; saving Sasuke, and would not give up there. That's like taking a shit and being too lazy to wipe off your ass.



> How's that for caring about people's feelings?


Ooh, read above.



> Oh and Sakura did not show any care for what Yamato was about to say afterwards.


Indeed, her face looking all shocked and Sakura going 'wtf' sure isn't caring.



> We are already 150 chapters after that, and she has yet to shown any flashback


You were left with over 200 chapters of non NH flashbacks. Your point being?



> , or thought about what Yamato was trying to tell her.


I agree, I wouldn't think about all of that when your teammate is in constant danger. Yaay me!


> Or, even better, has yet to see Naruto in a romantic light.


I agree.



> About the other pairings... well, SasuSaku had at least 4 hints that I remember:


4 hints > NaruSaku now, amirite? I lol'd. Hard.


> Sasuke complimenting Sakura before the written test


He wanted to motivate her. Is this romantic?


> Sasuke asking Sakura who had hurt her after waking up in CS state


That's what you ask when a teammate looks battered up. Is this romantic? 


> Sakura being able to reach him and stopping his rampage


Agreed. 


> Sasuke (very consciously) letting Sakura hug him in the hospital, and even looks at her.


Hold your horses there. Didn't he knock something out of her hand out of rage? Ah, the sweet smell of trulubz hangs in the air.


> NaruHina has had development, no matter what some people say, and has the potential to become canon.


Agreed.



> Hinata has cheered Naruto up


Uh, so have the others. I'd like IrukaxNaruto to be canon now. 


> said exactly what he needed to hear once


Oh, and that's always a good thing right? Can you do the same for me? 


> something Sakura has _never_ done


She doesn't want to make Naruto delusional and wants to "keep it real" which I applaud. 


> Naruto thanked her with a "A person like you, I really like!


I remember seeing hearts in a panel right next to Naruto when he said 'Is Sakura-chan going to sit next to me!?' accompanied with a dreamy look. 


> Makes me wonder, with little screentime they have had together, their relationship by then had already got that far.


Far? Some motivation, two or three conversations that had around 4-7 speech bubbles and a sacrifice.


> How much closer to canon would they be now if she was a main character?


... I honestly don't know what you're aiming at here. 


> Naruto and Hinata have far more in common than Naruto and Sakura:


Lord. Not this again.



> Naruto wants the village's acknowledgment, was always laughed at because he was a failure, and was alone; while Hinata wants her clan's acknowledgment, was always considered weak in comparison to her younger sister and was alone too.


Hinata was weak back then, and learned. But wtf is having a sad past in common really a reason to say that this pairing could become canon? Okay, let's see...

GaaraxNaruto is canon. Same past, just a small difference. Gaara killed his mom. Awesome, I can't wait. SasukexNaruto is canon. No parents after being killed, raised alone, trained hard, wanted to be acknowledged.



> In contrast, Sakura was teased because of her forehead, until she was took under Ino's wing.


Agreed.


> By then, Sakura's goal was Sasuke, and nothing to do with being stronger.


No, it was purely because she wanted to be > Ino. You can see it in ever panel that has Sakura & Ino. Romantic rivalry, woah.


> And, as Naruto stated in chapter 3, his reason for liking Sakura was because she wanted to be acknowledged.


Hold on, what the fuck was this "she's the cutest girl" all about?


> What will he think of Hinata once he knows about her story?


This made me lol a bit. What would it change? Everybody in Konoha has the same story. They're either orphans that wanted to be loved or evil henchmen that seek power.

Can't wait to see a Konoha orgy.


----------



## kstark2009 (May 17, 2009)

Kenneth said:


> I'll be dividing this in many little quotes if you don't mind.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



dude what do you trying to say? xD


----------



## Forlong (May 17, 2009)

Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It could count but some people still disregard it as not 100% romantic, so no.


I can let that one go.



Hikui said:


> Like you assume Yamato was talking about love, am I right?
> It's interpretation I guess...and I did say it wasn't such an stretch....the confession wasn't out of the blue, that's the point.


WHAT ELSE COULD HE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT!? 



kstark2009 said:


> I cant remember a big NaruSaku moment in part 2 ^^
> I remember a thing with yamato but that wasnt realy a thing.
> If you ask me there were more NaruGaara, NaruSasu, NaruJira and NaruIruka   moments as their were NaruSaku xDDD
> well its just my oppinion ^,-


Wait, _what!?_  What manga have you been reading, 'cause it sure as Hell ain't "Naruto".  You pay attention too, Ren, you screwd up as well.
When Naruto said the Kyuubi was inside him, Sakura reacted like this.
When Sakura finds out how Jinchuriki are used (like Naruto), she gets superpissed!  Then she asks how to remove a Biiju, and cries when she learns that doing that would kill Naruto.
Forgetting this moment, are we?
Here we see Sakura seems to put Naruto's importance above Sasuke's.  This leads to Sai making this conclusion.
This little scene.
Cheering Naruto up.

*Spoiler*: _Chapter 343 spoilers_ 



I'll cap it off with the famious ramen feeding scene.








Ren said:


> The only moment NaruSaku fans _could_ call a romantic moment is the Yamato speech one.


See what I've posted above?  How wrong you are.



Ren said:


> How could that be leading to her secret feelings of love for him? As long as she loved him, it would be ok to not be able to help him? If that's what Yamato was trying to get to, sure as hell makes no sense
> And how would making her realizing her feelings for him right there do the mission any good? She wouldn't be focusing on it, but on her new feelings for Naruto.



Sakura was depressed.  If Yamato intended for the mission to succeed, Sakura feeling she was useless wouldn't help.



Ren said:


> Which leads to: Why would Yamato adress the supposed feelings he saw Sakura had in the first place? Yamato is a captain, not a match-maker.


Did you see Yamato drop it, once Naruto was up and about?  Once the team was recovered, the mission took priority.



Ren said:


> Oh and Sakura did not show any care for what Yamato was about to say afterwards. We are already 150 chapters after that, and she has yet to shown any flashback, or thought about what Yamato was trying to tell her. Or, even better, has yet to see Naruto in a romantic light.


Once again, what I posted above.



Ren said:


> About the other pairings... well, SasuSaku had at least 4 hints that I remember:


Making SasuSaku _much_ less likely than NaruSaku.



Ren said:


> Sasuke complimenting Sakura before the written test;


*gasp*  He was nice to her..._once_.  That negates all the times he was a complete ass to her?



Ren said:


> Sasuke asking Sakura who had hurt her after waking up in CS state; Sakura being able to reach him and stopping his rampage;


That is the closest we'll ever get to a SasuSaku moment.



Ren said:


> Sasuke (very consciously) letting Sakura hug him in the hospital, and even looks at her.


Looks to me like Sasuke is to groggy to know what going on.  And note the pained smile on Naruto's face.  Yeah, no NaruSaku moments for miles. 



Ren said:


> NaruHina has had development, no matter what some people say, and has the potential to become canon. Hinata has cheered Naruto up, said exactly what he needed to hear once, something Sakura has _never_ done.


What maner of bullshit is this?  I remember pointing this out before.



Ren said:


> Naruto thanked her with a "A person like you, I really like!".


And Naruto saying Sakura is a girl he likes means nothing?

Ladies and gentlemen: the double standard. 



Ren said:


> Makes me wonder, with little screentime they have had together, their relationship by then had already got that far. How much closer to canon would they be now if she was a main character?


But she's not, so they're not.



Ren said:


> Naruto and Hinata have far more in common than Naruto and Sakura:


Doesn't matter.  Since everyone has ignored when I've pointed out what Naruto and Sakura have in common.



Ren said:


> And, as Naruto stated in chapter 3, his reason for liking Sakura was because she wanted to be acknowledged. What will he think of Hinata once he knows about her story?


How are Hinata's feelings for Naruto any different?

ZARU!


----------



## Hikui (May 17, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> As I said, Hinata loved him simply because she views them as kindred spirits. And admired Naruto's determination to fight that. But yet, she doesn't know anything beyond that Naruto. She doesn't care why he's after Sasuke, she hasn't demonstrated any understanding why he's being hunted. Which in the end is pretty narrow-minded thinking.
> 
> But Sakura, throughout the manga time and again, Kishimoto gives her moments to reflect on Naruto and over time she starts to understand him to the point she's defending him.
> 
> Frankly, I would love a woman who takes the time to learn the real me and not someone who only looks at one aspect of me.



Sakura knows all that because she gets panel time. Had Sakura taken the time to know that about Naruto had she been on Hinata's place? No. Sakura needed to be with Naruto for her to find out that and actually get to care about him, she needed that panel so she could get from 'hating him' to 'liking him. She didn't take the time, she was 'forced to' realize she was mistaken by Kishimoto. It is part of her character, that said, it doesn't necessarily means it has to be tied to romantic acknowledgment. It would personally ruin it for me as she already happens to have a beautiful friendship with Naruto that I don't want Kishimoto to ruin with a romantic relationship. Friendship> Romance, already. And are they seriously going after Sasuke holding hands? Look Sasuke we missed you enough to hook up over your loss. Nope, I don't like it. 

About Hinata.  She doesn't know that because she wasn't there. And quite honestly, had Hinata taken the courage to ask Naruto all those questions to know more about him it would've made her character more prominent than she already is. Had Kishimoto taken more panel time to develop that kind of relationship NaruHina would be canon. But now, Kishimoto doesn't write romance and isn't good at it, hence he will deal with romance when it's necessary and whenever it ties directly to the plot, and with little panels here and there. You can't claim that she didn't go beyond what she likes about Naruto, because we just don't know. It's not that she doesn't care that he's going after Sasuke, she knows she's going after Sasuke because he is his team mate and an important person to him. What's beyond that? Do you seriously believe Kishimoto was going to waste panel time showing Hinata asking Tsunade, Kakashi, Sakura (etc) why was Naruto going after Sasuke? And just to add up, Hinata had already been clear on stating that she accepted Naruto, and everything that goes with him (even admires him for it). 

You coming up with those baseless arguments is pretty narrow-minded. 

We're shown Sakura realizes stuff about Naruto but not that she goes investigating about how or what he feels. We see she investigated about Sasuke but that's a different debate. 




Tyrannos said:


> Well he certainly wasn't refering to Sakura's "lack of confidence".
> 
> Whoever invented that assumption of "lack of confidence" was surely "drawing at straws" themselves.



Just like what I said, it's interpretation. And just so you know, there's lots of people who back up that reference just like there's lots of people who back up 'he's talking about love'. 

It's ambiguous just like most (if any) NaruSaku romantic panels. 




Tyrannos said:


> Oh it's Kishimoto's fault now!



Everything in this manga it's Kishimoto's fault. If in the end NaruSaku is the final pairing, then I would blame Kishimoto for his inability to portray a believable or successful romance. He's being too ambiguous. I accept NaruSaku can happen, whether it is well done for all the panel it gets is completely different.



Tyrannos said:


> Especially for neglecting Hinata, in not giving her a more important role in the story!


I said he neglected the way she knew about Kyuubi, or not (?). Her character is fine, even when it could be better, it's not a matter of importance whether she ends up with the hero or not. If that were the case we would have SasuNaru. 



Tyrannos said:


> Yeah, but some are more so than others. Look up FOIL sometimes. That's exactly what Hinata is.





> Foil: A character that reflects (like shiny foil) the attributes of another character. In the classic good-guy versus bad guy scenario, both the hero and villain can be considered a foil, in that each acts to show how the other behaves in certain situations.



Sasuke is the FOIL, he is a direct contrast to Naruto. Even Kishimoto said so. He created Sasuke as a contrast to Naruto. Completely different from head to toe.



> Sometimes a foil is a secondary, flat character that comes on stage, sparks a response, then fades from the story.*More often, though, the foil is a recurring character that has a personality, or an opinion of things, that is different from another recurring character. *



This just supports it. Kishimoto is pretty clich?. He will go for the more often. Hinata falls more into the love interest category, more into the Yamato Nadeshiko category. Btw, it's also classic in Japan and very popular.




Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> You easily assume something that hasn't been proven. The defining moments will come in the upcoming chapters that will "cure or kill" that moment, and a pairing.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Excuse me what is that I assumed? I said Hinata protected Naruto and that she loved him. She said both of them. 
here and Link removedAnd I never said it defined something, so I agree we'll get some sort of resolution soon.






Tyrannos said:


> And yet people easily dismiss the possibility that Sakura could very well be falling in love with Naruto.


I don't. I just think that if she is, it's sloppily done. Not horribly, it's just sloppy. Oh and anticlimatic, but it's all personal opinion. 



Tyrannos said:


> No, nothing wrong with that. But people are overglorifying the reality and expect love to burst out of thin air. That's what many have problems with.


That's why I support that if it happens, it'll be by the end and probably done with a pairing no jutsu, I mean time skip. Romance is not important to the plot line, it would be very weird for me to see any canon pairing in the future chapters. Especially NaruSaku. 



Tyrannos said:


> You forget Sakura's personality, she's quite blunt.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



So what if she's blunt? Had Sakura wanted to call Hinata stupid she would've, just like she calls Naruto all the time. Hinata just literally gave her life for Naruto (and lived, lol), saying that would make her heartless. Sakura is not like that at all. And about her sulking, I just don't think that is...exactly. The original text was something around the lines of: Hinata you must really love Naruto, but it was only the start of the sentence that would be: "Hinata you....", it was implied so they put: Hinata loves Naruto. She was very stressed and surprised, and of course is worried about Hinata and Naruto's health....so her expression is very understandable. She wasn't going to be happy. But it could mean something else, I agree. 




That was long.


----------



## Afalstein (May 17, 2009)

I really shouldn't get involved in evidence debates, as I'm not very familiar with the Manga.  But I have a few points, and everyone has been ragging on Ren.  Forlong, you happen to be closer to quote, so I'll use your statements.



Forlong said:


> Wait, _what!?_  What manga have you been reading, 'cause it sure as Hell ain't "Naruto".  You pay attention too, Ren, you screwd up as well.
> When Naruto said the Kyuubi was inside him, Sakura reacted like this.



So she suddenly realizes that Naruto was all alone when he was younger.  Something Hinata has known for years.  Granted, it shows movement from her habit of punching Naruto all the time, but not particularly romance. 



Forlong said:


> When Sakura finds out how Jinchuriki are used (like Naruto), she gets superpissed!  Then she asks how to remove a Biiju, and cries when she learns that doing that would kill Naruto.



I could argue that the first two are just general reactions to the concept of Jinchuuriki, but undoubtedly her opinion of Naruto is involved.  But even so, while this shows concern for Naruto, it does not necessarily indicate romance.  That would be why these aren't considered romantic moments by NaruHina (though I can see how they would be considered as such by NaruSaku)  Essentially they reflect a movement from Sakura's former abusive habits to one where she views Naruto as a person.



Forlong said:


> Forgetting this moment, are we?



She thinks of both Naruto and Sasuke, implying teamwork more than romance.  Also, true, indicates a desire to improve herself because of Naruto, but this was exhibited by Hinata years ago, and Neji, and Gaara.  Again, simply a move from abusive habits.



Forlong said:


> Here we see Sakura seems to put Naruto's importance above Sasuke's.  This leads to Sai making this conclusion.



Perhaps.  But Sai isn't good at reading feelings in general, including friendship.  And her own reaction isn't really putting Naruto's importance above Sasuke.  She is following a move Naruto put forth BECAUSE of Sasuke.  She realizes Naruto is correct in his policy, but the reason for the policy is Sasuke, not Naruto.  And she actually says that.



Forlong said:


> This little scene.
> Cheering Naruto up.
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Chapter 343 spoilers_
> ...



Okay, she's worried about his health, and she thinks Yamato's policy unfair.  It could be taken as Romance, but it's also easily readable as something else.  Recall much of this section is about the importance of teamwork, in reflection of the old theme.  That is the point of Sai's isolation, the other two's dislike of him, and the mission to free Sasuke in general. 

She's not cheering him up so much really, she's restoring his resolution.  Which is, arguably, a more proactive approach then Hinata's simple "You're strong" speech.  She's helping Naruto become better.

Ramen scene I can see better than most.  The main problem, though, is that Sakura's action is prompted by a statement about how they are both getting closer to SASUKE.  The relationship is defined largely in terms of Sasuke.  But again, it's a more clearly romantic scene than the others. (you don't have to spoiler tag this, it was in the anime.)




Forlong said:


> And Naruto saying Sakura is a girl he liked means nothing?
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen: the double standard.






Forlong said:


> How are Hinata's feelings for Naruto any different?
> 
> ZARU!



Exactly.  You provide an excellent example of your own double standard.

Naruto said Sakura is a girl he liked.  But we've known for years that NAruto likes Sakura, the question is about how deep that affection is.  Similarly, the question has never been whether Hinata likes Naruto, but whether Naruto likes Hinata.  And the example Ren supplies shows that he "likes people like her."   

Wonderfully ambiguous, of course, as so much Kishi does is, but nonetheless a hint that Naruto likes Hinata, at least as a simple friend.  Much as many of the NaruSaku moments hint that Sakura is starting to like Naruto, at least as a simple teammate.  Granted, there are more of one than the other.  But the main point of the NaruSaku development is that it has reached the point of NaruHina, only with the unrequited roles reversed.  And Hinata's confession puts her ahead again.

Naruto liked that Sakura was incredibly devoted to prove herself to Sasuke, because that was like him.  The point Ren is making is that now he learns that Hinata is also incredibly devoted to proving herself, except she wants to prove herself to HIM.  

I'm not really sure what your "objection" is trying to say.  That Hinata likes Naruto because of his desire to prove himself, just like her?  Certainly.  How is that a mark against her?  I don't really consider Naruto liking Sakura for her devotion a negative mark, and I don't think you do either.  It's very commendable.  But the difference is that here it is reciprocated.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 18, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> I really shouldn't get involved in evidence debates, as I'm not very familiar with the Manga.  But I have a few points, and everyone has been ragging on Ren.  Forlong, you happen to be closer to quote, so I'll use your statements.



Don't worry too much, I've been there, done that, you know the drill. It's cool, we'll call you on it if we see something that's totally wrong (we all do it, and I've probably been called on it before).





> So she suddenly realizes that Naruto was all alone when he was younger.  Something Hinata has known for years.  Granted, it shows movement from her habit of punching Naruto all the time, but not particularly romance.



Okay, while I semi-agree, the part about hitting Naruto is ridiculous. In the Manga, even in Part 1, she really didn't hit Naruto that much, maybe once every other arc. By the end of Part 1, she'd already given up this so-called habit. The Anime tends to add hits from Sakura, if I recall correctly, the only real time she had hit Naruto was pre-Chuunin Exams, and it was because he was about to pee in front of her. I don't remember how many times she did hit him in Part 1, but I know for a fact it wasn't nearly as often as people make it out to be.



> I could argue that the first two are just general reactions to the concept of Jinchuuriki, but undoubtedly her opinion of Naruto is involved.  But even so, while this shows concern for Naruto, it does not necessarily indicate romance.  That would be why these aren't considered romantic moments by NaruHina (though I can see how they would be considered as such by NaruSaku)  Essentially they reflect a movement from Sakura's former abusive habits to one where she views Naruto as a person.



Agreed. Except for the abusive part, Sakura gets a lot of flack for this, she's nowhere near as bad as people make her out to be.



> She thinks of both Naruto and Sasuke, implying teamwork more than romance.  Also, true, indicates a desire to improve herself because of Naruto, but this was exhibited by Hinata years ago, and Neji, and Gaara.  Again, simply a move from abusive habits.


Agreed, that is probably the case. But again, disagree w/ the abusive thing, for God's sake, Sakura isn't an abusive character! (This is one of the few times I want to kill the Anime team)




> Perhaps.  But Sai isn't good at reading feelings in general, including friendship.  And her own reaction isn't really putting Naruto's importance above Sasuke.  She is following a move Naruto put forth BECAUSE of Sasuke.  She realizes Naruto is correct in his policy, but the reason for the policy is Sasuke, not Naruto.  And she actually says that.



While that might be so, let me ask you this: How many times has he been wrong? Exactly. Granted, he hasn't been proven right either, but the point is that your argument is no better than ours, simple as that. As for the Sasuke thing, it's a bit of both, and she makes this point clear. She has not brought up her crush with Sasuke once in Part 2. Ever. Don't say anything about off-panel, because when you're a main character, it just doesn't work that way. That is poor writing, and I don't think Kishi is that bad (minor characters are okay to do this with simply because we don't see them all the time.)




> Okay, she's worried about his health, and she thinks Yamato's policy unfair.  It could be taken as Romance, but it's also easily readable as something else.  Recall much of this section is about the importance of teamwork, in reflection of the old theme.  That is the point of Sai's isolation, the other two's dislike of him, and the mission to free Sasuke in general.



Totally agree, I personally think it's a bit of both. But again, interpretation from biased eyes on both our ends.



> She's not cheering him up so much really, she's restoring his resolution.  Which is, arguably, a more proactive approach then Hinata's simple "You're strong" speech.  She's helping Naruto become better.



Pretty much agree, though it could (keyword: could) have been meant to mean more. We just won't know 'till it's done.



> Ramen scene I can see better than most.  The main problem, though, is that Sakura's action is prompted by a statement about how they are both getting closer to SASUKE.  The relationship is defined largely in terms of Sasuke.  But again, it's a more clearly romantic scene than the others. (you don't have to spoiler tag this, it was in the anime.)



I can see why, but it might have to do with PoaL, which Sakura had already told him to not worry about. BUT that would be off-panel, and it's never referenced, so consider that out-the-butt theory that really doesn't matter unless Kishi chooses to elaborate on it later.



> Exactly.  You provide an excellent example of your own double standard.
> 
> Naruto said Sakura is a girl he liked.  But we've known for years that NAruto likes Sakura, the question is about how deep that affection is.  Similarly, the question has never been whether Hinata likes Naruto, but whether Naruto likes Hinata.



Alright then, yes I agree with this completely.



> And the example Ren supplies shows that he "likes people like her."
> 
> Wonderfully ambiguous, of course, as so much Kishi does is, but nonetheless a hint that Naruto likes Hinata, at least as a simple friend.  Much as many of the NaruSaku moments hint that Sakura is starting to like Naruto, at least as a simple teammate.  Granted, there are more of one than the other.  But the main point of the NaruSaku development is that it has reached the point of NaruHina, only with the unrequited roles reversed.  And Hinata's confession puts her ahead again.



Alright, this is where we part company completely for the first time. The "people like her" line probably doesn't mean anything more than being a friend IN MY OPINION. Kishi can do whatever he wants, and I'll accept and be over it. But until he does this, I will assume that it was meant for that moment alone. Keep in mind, Hinata and Naruto have never flashed back to that line. A good spot for that, if Naruto truly felt that way, would have been... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



When he said "Thank God", which would have meant NH is more likely.


 I don't see that line as significant, as Sakura has "feelings" towards Naruto in prior chapters that she can't explain (Check the Zabuza arc, they poped up there first. No, it isn't romantic, but it proves that there's something going on that isn't exactly normal. And it isn't being impressed, either.).




> Naruto liked that Sakura was incredibly devoted to prove herself to Sasuke, because that was like him.  The point Ren is making is that now he learns that Hinata is also incredibly devoted to proving herself, except she wants to prove herself to HIM.
> 
> I'm not really sure what your "objection" is trying to say.  That Hinata likes Naruto because of his desire to prove himself, just like her?  Certainly.  How is that a mark against her?  I don't really consider Naruto liking Sakura for her devotion a negative mark, and I don't think you do either.  It's very commendable.  But the difference is that here it is reciprocated.



Okay, I see what you're saying, so yeah, I'd understand why it'd seem odd for us to be marking it as a negative for Hinata. Honestly, this is why: because it feels like an obsession, and that's not healthy.

Sakura has been there before as well with her obsessive crush on Sasuke in Part 1, and I feel it held her character back. Thanks to recent events, it has been revealed that Hinata's whole character revolves around Naruto, and that wasn't something he wanted. He wanted her to believe in herself, not him. I feel he saw this at the Exams, and believed she'd become confident in herself there. Clearly, this is not the case, and she's put her all on Naruto.

So that's why, because I feel that her character's development and potential is held back. I am by no means a Hinata fan, I actually think she's the shallowest of the side characters (well, except for maybe Tenten, but she doesn't get a lot of screentime so... lol) IN MY OPINION (sorry for all the IMOs in capitols throughout the posts, I just want to make it clear that it's my opinion, and that I don't see it as fact.).

As for the reciprocated, NaruHina is still one-sided, just as NaruSaku is. The only difference is that NaruSaku has hints that it might be becoming something more. NaruHina doesn't have that benefit yet. If Kishi wants to do this, then we'll see in a few weeks. Nice debating w/ you Afalstein, you have quite a few good points.


----------



## Afalstein (May 18, 2009)

I must say, that was a far better reply than I was expecting, especially because I didn't think I was being particularly polite myself.  I apologize for the many "abusive" tags, I'm more familiar with the anime, where it was more common.  I do believe she socked him in Part II when he returned and she asked him whether she had become more womanly.  But one event does not make a trend.



TwilightLink20xx said:


> Alright, this is where we part company completely for the first time. The "people like her" line probably doesn't mean anything more than being a friend IN MY OPINION. Kishi can do whatever he wants, and I'll accept and be over it. But until he does this, I will assume that it was meant for that moment alone. Keep in mind, Hinata and Naruto have never flashed back to that line. A good spot for that, if Naruto truly felt that way, would have been...
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



It can.  But at the time, it was more than anything Sakura had openly said to Naruto.  The point of the quote, though, is that NaruHina is not completely one-sided.  Naruto at the very least respects Hinata, and has since then.  Sakura has learned to respect Naruto (development, true.), at the very least.  So I say the two have become more or less equal.  

Now, the crux of this is, most NaruSaku say that Sakura has more than respect for Naruto, and Naruto arguably doesn't hold much more than respect for Hinata.  But this would be because he's never considered her in that light before.  Sakura has always had some part of that in her mind, because she knows Naruto adores her.  But even in that light, it's taken a while for her to get as far as she has. And while Sakura may very well have feelings for Naruto, as you point out, she's still not sure what they are.  Hence, in light of recent events, it might not be difficult for her to let go of them.

But that might just be a pipe-dream of mine.




TwilightLink20xx said:


> Okay, I see what you're saying, so yeah, I'd understand why it'd seem odd for us to be marking it as a negative for Hinata. Honestly, this is why: because it feels like an obsession, and that's not healthy.
> 
> Sakura has been there before as well with her obsessive crush on Sasuke in Part 1, and I feel it held her character back. Thanks to recent events, it has been revealed that Hinata's whole character revolves around Naruto, and that wasn't something he wanted. He wanted her to believe in herself, not him. I feel he saw this at the Exams, and believed she'd become confident in herself there. Clearly, this is not the case, and she's put her all on Naruto.
> 
> ...



Everything here is a person's opinion.  But it's good to recognize the fact.

Okay, that makes a little more sense. But then the comment "How is Hinata's love for Naruto any different" doesn't make sense, because it implies that Hinata's obsession over Naruto is similar to Naruto's obsession over Sakura.  But then, perhaps they thought the person was trying to say Naruto was obsessed with Sakura, so they... well anyway, you get the idea.  

It seems the two scenes have an implied contradiction.  Naruto likes Sakura for the same reason Hinata likes Naruto.  So if either crush is flippant or meaningless for that reason, chances are the other one is too.  Especially because arguably, Hinata's attitude is similar to Sakura's, and Sakura's attitude is slowly changing from devotion to Sasuke to devotion to Naruto.  (Though I don't honestly see Sakura having to "work" to obtain Naruto's acknowledgment).  I'll just leave that there.

I can understand the objection with Hinata, but really it doesn't seem like a concern.  We're not really arguing who has the healthier psyche of the two, after all.  And the fact that we haven't seen more development with Hinata doesn't mean that there isn't more.  Just like the fact that Tenten seeming so shallow is largely due to her lack of screen time.  Sasuke wasn't really terribly deep until Itachi showed up, and then pretty one-sided until the VotE.  Chouji had no importance until his battle with Jiroubou.  And so forth.  I can see how Hinata's character AS IT STANDS might seem unhealthy, but that doesn't mean it actually is.  Sakura is a main character, so she naturally gets more development.  But as I've said before, the main girl doesn't always get the main guy.

A pleasure arguing with you too, TwillightLink


----------



## M4verick (May 18, 2009)

Time for M4vericks dynamic entry into the argument! LOL, jp



Afalstein said:


> I really shouldn't get involved in evidence debates, as I'm not very familiar with the Manga.  But I have a few points, and everyone has been ragging on Ren.  Forlong, you happen to be closer to quote, so I'll use your statements.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow... ok.  A view can be romantic, an object can be romantic, a meal can be romantic, but no interaction between NaruSaku can be seen as romantic by you guys.  What in the world do you guys think "romantic" is? Seriously, explain it to me.  

My only logic is being completely biased, or if you admit to yourself of NaruSaku moments being romantic, than it would hurt the confidence you have in the naruhina pairing.




Afalstein said:


> Exactly.  You provide an excellent example of your own double standard.
> 
> Naruto said Sakura is a girl he liked.  But we've known for years that NAruto likes Sakura, the question is about how deep that affection is.  Similarly, the question has never been whether Hinata likes Naruto, but whether Naruto likes Hinata.  And the example Ren supplies shows that he "likes people like her."



The key difference between what Naruto said to Hinata is that he thinks "...I like Sakura" about Sakura. To Hinata he says, "a girl like you I could really like".  If Naruto said to Hinata, "Hinata, I really like you", it would change everything.


Afalstein said:


> Wonderfully ambiguous, of course, as so much Kishi does is, but nonetheless a hint that Naruto likes Hinata, at least as a simple friend.  Much as many of the NaruSaku moments hint that Sakura is starting to like Naruto, at least as a simple teammate.


Um..yea, she liked him as a simple teammate in part 1...


Afalstein said:


> Granted, there are more of one than the other.  But the main point of the NaruSaku development is that it has reached the point of NaruHina, only with the unrequited roles reversed.  And Hinata's confession puts her ahead again.



*Spoiler*: __ 



"it reached the point of NaruHina", I think you have it reversed.  In all of part 2, Naruto and Sakura have been growing closer together.  Naruto and Hinata is no where near the closeness of Naruto and Sakura.  What Hinata's confession did was put a big question mark which will probably be answered within the next 20 chapters.  





Afalstein said:


> Naruto liked that Sakura was incredibly devoted to prove herself to Sasuke, because that was like him.  The point Ren is making is that now he learns that Hinata is also incredibly devoted to proving herself, except she wants to prove herself to HIM.



Yea, Naruto liked that about her in chapter 3... Heaven forbid he developed any other feelings for her in the next 400+chapters.  For all we know, Sakura is Naruto's first crush, his only crush, and its obvious that his feelings have progressed from more than a mere crush.  


Afalstein said:


> I'm not really sure what your "objection" is trying to say.  That Hinata likes Naruto because of his desire to prove himself, just like her?  Certainly.  How is that a mark against her?  I don't really consider Naruto liking Sakura for her devotion a negative mark, and I don't think you do either.  It's very commendable.  But the difference is that here it is reciprocated.



Its not negative that Hinata is falling in love with Naruto because of that one aspect.  Its just weak compared to Sakura.  Sakura understand more about Naruto than almost everyone in the manga.  The pink haired kunoichi is falling in love with Naruto knowing the good and the bad, the light and the dark about him.


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 18, 2009)

Sorry for taking so long Louchan... hope the length of this post makes up for it. 



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> Like you said, Naruto remembers the promise he made to Sakura back then, that Sasuke would never leave them for the Sound ninjas.
> The next pannel then has a large zooming in of Sakura's smiling face, to which Naruto then grits his teeth and thinks the words "Dammit, Sasuke, why?".
> I believe that the biggest reason why Naruto is so upset here is because Sasuke, by leaving them, betrayed and let Sakura down.
> ...



That?s because at that point in the story, Sakura?s feelings are the focus.  Think about the narrative, Naruto can?t vent all of his feelings about Sasuke yet, it?s too early.  So yes, Naruto acknowledges Sakura?s feelings for Sasuke, and the fact Sasuke hurt her.  As an extension of that, Naruto is annoyed that what he said has now turned out to be untrue.  You?re not focusing enough on Sasuke.  He isn?t there, but he is the reason for that entire arc, the reason for Sakura?s feelings, and the reason for Naruto being annoyed.  You?re putting too much focus on conjecture about what Naruto may or may not be thinking.  It?s not something special for him to think about what he said to her, and in fact, it would be strange of him not to.  She?s right in front of him and upset so of course he?ll remember and feel bad.  But it isn?t a romantic moment because of that.



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> I honestly don't believe Naruto is very crushed about Sasuke leaving at this point.
> Pissed off, sure, but not sad, worried, or crushed.
> Why?
> Because he still doesn't believe that Sasuke has truly left them.
> The reason I think this is because of this scene in chapter 209, where Naruto finally catches up with Sasuke again.



That is interesting, but I think you have missed a very important character trait that Naruto exhibits.  Outwardly, Naruto is the most positive person in the entire story, but internally he is far more perceptive and realistic than people give him credit for.  There?s evidence before this in chapter 98 when he talks to Hinata and is actually worried about losing to Neji, and admits to as much despite trying to act like it will be a breeze, like he always does.  In fact that scene is one of the reasons I think Naruto and Hinata have the potential for a deep relationship, even if they are not incredibly close right now.

In chapter 311, on pages 6 and 7, Naruto is deep in thought about Sasuke and his revenge.  A page later he acts like his normal self and lies that he was thinking about a date with Sakura.  This is classic Naruto.

On the subject of ?Naruto doesn?t believe Sasuke?s gone?, there is further evidence of Naruto internalising before he sees Sakura.  When Shikamaru tells Naruto about Saskue leaving there is the classic external/internal Naruto scene.  His massive reaction at hearing the news and then the internal realisation that he really has gone.

And before I forget about chapter 98 and 310?

@Forlong, you said that chapter 310 was evidence that Sakura could cheer him up like Hinata did.  But that chapter 98 and chapter 310 are completely different.

For example, in chapter 98, Naruto and Hinata were alone.  Chapter 310 has Sai and Yamato.  Sai offers his help in returning Sasuke and when Naruto says thanks, it is to Sai as well.  It is undeniably a team moment, proved by the fact that the team is there and interacting.

Not only that, but Sakura is talking about Sasuke who again seems to have been ignored.  Sakura is crying in that scene as well.  Sakura wants him back as well.  Couple that with Sakura?s long and drawn out ?I see Sasuke? page and I can only assume that Sakura still feels the way she did when Sasuke left before.  Is it really that much of a leap in logic?  I don?t think it is?

Of course, if you want to explain 310, that?s cool.

Continued below.


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 18, 2009)

Continued from above.



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> His happy and carefree reaction speaks for itself, doesn't it?
> One has to remember that Naruto is exteremly naive.
> Up to this point, the thought that Sasuke, his best friend and rival, had really decided to leave them on his own accord was something that Naruto just couldn't immagine.
> I should add another interesting thing about this scene, which comes with the next page.
> ...


Naruto was doing what he always does at first; pretending as if everything was fine.  But he knows its not.  He in the middle of a fight against Kimimaro after all, and is losing.  Sasuke’s just come out of a weird sealed tub and was laughing maniacally.  Naruto isn’t stupid, and his actions follow his usual pattern:  Pretend everything is okay/big emotional outburst and then a scene that deals with his real thoughts.  Or vice versa.  The point is that occasionally Naruto doesn’t mean what he says.



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> I don't think that second theory of him "moving on" holds much water considering how Naruto continues being obviously attracted to Sakura throughout the rest of the series and up to present point.



Hmm, I’ll quote you and then make my point:



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> Haha, Naruto has no intentions to "win Sakura over".
> In fact, ever since the PoaLT he has pretty much stopped to seriously pursue her all together.
> Because he believes her heart is still with Sasuke, and if he's the one she wants then Naruto is ready to aceept that, even though it so obviously hurts him.
> Because he loves her. x 2
> ...



So:

You don’t think he’s moved on?
You don’t think he’s pursuing her seriously?
You think that he’s accepted that Sakura loves Sasuke and is selflessly giving her up?
You think that he’s still attracted to her?
You think he loves her?

I can understand where you’re coming from but I have a few issues with your argument.

Firstly, if what you say is true (but I’ll get to that…), what exactly is stopping Naruto from accepting Hinata’s feelings now then?  If he is giving Sakura up because he doesn’t think she feels the same way and isn’t pursuing her seriously then finding out Hinata has those feelings for him is surely worth exploring on Naruto’s part isn’t it?  I mean, holding onto a repeatedly unrequited so called “love” when you know those feelings will never be returned is a bit masochistic isn’t it?

Your argument for NaruSaku seems to hinge on Sakura realising feelings for Naruto and then approaching him over them and I’m sorry but despite the various arguments that Sakura has been falling in love with Naruto I can’t see beyond friendship and ambiguity that has never been followed up.  Similarly, no matter how many times people dismiss Sakura’s confession to Sasuke, those feelings for him would have to be addressed before any NaruSaku could happen.  It was a big scene for Sakura as a character and it can’t just be ignored by saying “look at these ambiguous scenes that haven’t been followed up”.

But anyway, I’m gonna take a quick aside.  I’ll be back to ya in a sec Louchan.

@Forlong again.  I really think you’re skewing the manga if your think that Sakura is crying because she is in love with Naruto when they're talking about the Kyuubi.  Why can’t she be crying because one of her closest friends could be killed?  What makes you think it’s romantic?  Is it just because it’s Sakura crying over Naruto?  I could prove Chouji has romantic feelings for his father on that basis…

And in “this moment” you seem to be conveniently forgetting Sasuke.  I mean, that scene you mention is a reference to the “We’ll get him (Sasuke) back together”.  And that in turn is a reference to the speech Sakura made that she had been useless before but would make herself useful and that next time they would stop Sasuke as a team.  Look at the picture of Naruto in the scene.  It’s the one when he’s bandaged up, i.e. chapter 236.  It’s about her usefulness, *not* them being a couple…

Similarly, when Sakura doesn’t want to leave Naruto behind, it’s for two reasons.  One, she knows that Naruto wants to get Sasuke back and two; she espouses a team ethic that Kakashi taught them.  It’s another team moment.  Not a pairing one.

Back to Louchan.  Sorry, that was longer than I thought…

Secondly (hope you’re still with me), I think there’s something very important that you’ve missed when you admitted that Naruto isn’t pursuing Sakura seriously.  You think that he’s not pursuing her seriously because he’s “given up on her” because he “loves” her?

But that’s not true.

Have you ever been in love with someone?  In fact, I have to say I haven’t yet been in love with someone but that will help my point.  If you’ve ever had romantic feelings for someone, you’ll know that the idea of a rejection from that person is very painful.  Breaking up is painful.  Not seeing them for a protracted length of time is painful.  And that’s just when you have romantic *feelings* for them.  Love is much stronger.

But what have we seen each and every time Naruto has had a date request rejected?  Nothing.  Nothing at all.  Ever.

For a person who has feelings for someone else to be rejected by that person is painful, even if (and I’m speaking from experience here) they’ve decided to not pursue that person.  The complete lack of emotional response to Sakura’s rejections, and the lack of follow up at any time leads me to believe that the *most* Naruto feels is attraction.

Y’see I’m not going as far to say that Naruto isn’t attracted to her.  The ramen feeding scene proves that much.  But that’s the most it proves.  You can’t base the idea that he loves her on the idea that he’d like to be fed by her.

Continued below.


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 18, 2009)

Continued from above.



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> I fully disagree.
> I do believe that the pain Naruto was speaking of was indeed the pain of being a victim to one-sided love.
> One might find it obvious for me to have this opinion since I'm a NaruSaku fan, but for me it's also the theory that makes the most sense.
> First of all, like I said earlier, I do not think Naruto truly believes that Sasuke has left them at this point. (For reasons I also explained earlier in this post.) Thus there is no reason for him to be all sad about it.
> ...



Hmm, some good points, but flawed because they’re based on something that’s not true.  Naruto had already acknowledged Sasuke had gone (Chapter 182 page 14 bottom left).  He had even had the situation explained to him by Shikamaru, who had had it explained to him by Tsunade (same chapter pages 9-13).    So that’s why I don’t think your first point is right…

You seemed to almost get what I was saying in your second point.

It *is* a growth moment for Sakura.  And of course it’s Naruto who initiated her flashback but my point was that the flashback *can’t* have been about unrequited love.  Why?  Because Sakura doesn’t know that it was Naruto transformed as Sasuke in that scene.  From her point of view, that scene is about thinking Naruto was annoying and that he didn’t understand her.  Chapter 183 changes that in her eyes.  But it *is* important that it was Sakura’s flashback because that’s what makes it about her changing her opinion about Naruto and growing and *not* about unrequited love.



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> Again, I disagree.
> I believe that was a promise directed fully to Sakura, not himself or anyone else.
> Because, like I've already reffered back to a dousin times by now, he still didn't believe at this point that Sasuke had truly left them.
> So his only concern during the PoaLT was to once again comfort and reassure Sakura that he would bring Sasuke back to her no matter what.
> ...



Again, I’ll stick with the idea that Naruto does know Sasuke’s gone, for the reasons I mentioned.  He doesn’t know *all* of the reasons that Sasuke left, true, but he does know about Itachi (if not the entire back story), about Orochimaru, and about the cursed seal.  The reason Naruto is so angry in the VotE is because he can’t understand Sasuke’s desire to break his bonds when he himself values them himself so highly and has wanted bonds for so long.

On the point that Sakura is the trigger that keeps him going, I would say that Naruto only thinks of her independently *once*, in chapter 219, page 14.  If Sakura was the inspiration for the entire retrieval then Naruto should be considering her himself more than that.

In chapter 210 for example, it is Lee who reminds Naruto of his promise to Sakura.  In chapter 218 Naruto only thinks of Sakura after Sasuke says “Is it you this time?”.  If this is primarily for her then why does he have to be reminded?  If this is for her then why doesn’t Naruto bring Sakura up when he rants at Sasuke?

And after 219 it rapidly turns into Naruto wanting Sasuke back for his bond with his best friend.  There’s another 14 chapters of fight when Sakura doesn’t enter his head.  I think you’re over promoting the importance of Sakura here.  After all, this manga is essentially about Naruto and Sasuke’s bond.  Kishimoto does have a tendency to sideline the girls…



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> See above.
> Also, even though the main story of Naruto is indeed the bond between Naruto and Sasuke, that doesn't mean there isn't any place for any other bonds.
> Like the bond between Naruto and the girl he's in love with.
> So I don't see how making a promise to that girl in order to secure her happiness (even if it means sacrificing some of his own) "devalues" Naruto's friendship with Sasuke in any way.



Of course there’s room in the story for other bonds.  Like the close friendship between Naruto and Sakura.  I’ve dealt with the idea of “love” in their relationship. The promise cements Naruto and Sakura’s friendship.  It’s not romantic.  And I’m not saying his promise devalues Naruto and Sasuke’s friendship.  I’m saying:

Arguing that the promise is chiefly for Sakura makes it look as if Naruto is rescuing Sasuke chiefly for Sakura’s benefit, which just isn’t true.  Otherwise the entire VotE would be interspersed with Naruto ending his sentences with “for Sakura”.



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> I don't see how.
> It's not like he has much say in the matter anyway.
> And of course he's not bringing back Sasuke as a "romantic gesture".
> *Naruto wants to bring back Sasuke for his own sake, of course, but also for Sakura.
> ...



Tell me then, why is Naruto bringing back Sasuke?  When you say Naruto is doing it “for Sakura” what do you mean?  And the same with Sakura for Naruto.

Because I would agree with the bolded text but I would say it’s completely unromantic.  How is getting Sasuke back romantic?  How is it furthering the pairing?  Once he’s back, how do you see everything panning out?  The way I see it is:

Naruto is getting Sasuke back for himself because Sasuke is his first and best friend.
Naruto is getting Sasuke back for Sakura because he acknowledges that Sakura loves Sasuke.
Sakura is getting Sasuke back for herself because she loves Sasuke.
Sakura is getting Sasuke back for Naruto because Sasuke is Naruto’s best friend.

Is that wrong?

Your right, it is a good aspect of their relationship (though I would hesitate to say beautiful).  In Part Two they’re good friends working together to get someone back who is important to them, whereas in Part One they were never a very good team or very good friends.  It’s just not romantic.

Continued below.


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 18, 2009)

Continued from above.



			
				Louchan said:
			
		

> And I've tried to argue why I think it is romantic.



But you haven?t really.  You?ve argued that Naruto has given up on Sakura (though I think that?s a misreading of the scene and there is little to give up) and that he isn?t pursuing her seriously anymore.  You?ve argued that they?re working together to return Sasuke but there isn?t anything inherently romantic about that.  I mean Kakashi, Yamato and Sai are now helping to return Sasuke, are they part of the pairing?

The massive problem with NaruSaku, that I think I have shown, is that the argument is based on the idea that each piece of so called ?evidence? for ?love? between these two is backed up only by the weight of more tenuous ?evidence? for ?love?.  In effect, so many scenes are merely showing that Sakura?s feelings *might* be developing into ?love? then that must mean that overall they must be developing in that way, right?  Well, I can see where you?re coming from, really I can.  But it?s a house of cards.  It?s all very tenuous evidence that together doesn?t actually add up to much at all.  To promote NaruSaku, every single ?progression? scene requires bias to get past its own undeniable ambiguity in order to promote romance.  There isn?t a single scene on Sakura?s side that is ?undeniable? for romance and a few that would suggest the opposite of romance.  And it its all at the very least deniable then what is the basis of the Sakura side of NaruSaku in terms of romance?  In a similar vein, all we?ve had from Naruto that we can *prove[/B/ is attraction.  So if there?s a negative reaction on one side and periodic mild interest on the other, where is the pairing?



			
				Louchan said:
			
		


			Oh yes.
How could anyone possibly question Hinata's feelings?
They are obviously pure love grown from watching a person without having almost any type of interaction with him for... oh wait.
		
Click to expand...


Y?see, I?ve acknowledged that Naruto and Sakura have development and interaction; I?ve just argued that it isn?t romantic.  But you?re just dismissing out of hand something that has been built up.

What NaruHina has is clear love on one side.  There isn?t any ambiguity, what you are arguing about is the ?pureness? of Hinata?s love, not whether it is love.  And even the arguments you use in that case are flawed.  I?ll refer you to my post about the positive interaction Naruto and Hinata have shared.

They?re on pages 81 and 82.  Posts 1682 and 1617.



			
				izzyisozaki said:
			
		


			Sad how rejection is so demonized. A person can't love someone they don't no matter how positive it is.
		
Click to expand...


And I?m so glad you posted this izzy cos it?s a perfect example of how to misunderstand what I say in my posts.

It?s not about real people it?s about the way the relationship between Naruto and Hinata has been portrayed so far.  This is a story and you have to acknowledge the themes that have run all the way through, something that doesn?t happen in real life.  And her post brings me to my last point.

We don?t know what Naruto thinks about Hinata in terms of romance.  He could think anything.  He could find her ugly, he could find her beautiful.  He could already have a crush on her or he could have already done what many people do and dismiss one of their friends as a romantic interest.

But we don?t know because we have been given absolutely no hints about what Naruto thinks of her by Kishi.  We can assume that the confession had an effect because Naruto seemed pretty shocked.  But compared to NaruSaku which has had a negative reaction on one side and sporadic interest on the other, NaruHina has positive love on one side and nothing yet on the other.

And the yet is important, because I could be completely and utterly wrong.  But at the point we are at now, this is what I am sticking with.  I?m a historian, until I get new evidence, I can?t come to any new conclusions?

?Our ideas held no water but we used them as a dam?

I?ll rep the first person to name the song and band.

Later. *


----------



## Louchan (May 18, 2009)

Holy hell. 
You weren't kidding when you said your reply would be long.
I'll get to replying to it, but it might take a while and I might not do it all in one go, so please be patient with me.


----------



## Kathutet (May 18, 2009)

Why don't you post that in the manifesto part of your FC, son? Holy fucking jumping Jesus on a pogo stick.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 18, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Sakura knows all that because she gets panel time. Had Sakura taken the time to know that about Naruto had she been on Hinata's place? No. Sakura needed to be with Naruto for her to find out that and actually get to care about him, she needed that panel so she could get from 'hating him' to 'liking him. She didn't take the time, she was 'forced to' realize she was mistaken by Kishimoto. It is part of her character, that said, it doesn't necessarily means it has to be tied to romantic acknowledgment. It would personally ruin it for me as she already happens to have a beautiful friendship with Naruto that I don't want Kishimoto to ruin with a romantic relationship. Friendship> Romance, already. And are they seriously going after Sasuke holding hands? Look Sasuke we missed you enough to hook up over your loss. Nope, I don't like it.


 
Because Sakura has panel time? More like she's a Main Character and Hinata's a secondary character. 

And Sakura was to what?  



Hikui said:


> About Hinata. She doesn't know that because she wasn't there. And quite honestly, had Hinata taken the courage to ask Naruto all those questions to know more about him it would've made her character more prominent than she already is. Had Kishimoto taken more panel time to develop that kind of relationship NaruHina would be canon. But now, Kishimoto doesn't write romance and isn't good at it, hence he will deal with romance when it's necessary and whenever it ties directly to the plot, and with little panels here and there. You can't claim that she didn't go beyond what she likes about Naruto, because we just don't know. It's not that she doesn't care that he's going after Sasuke, she knows she's going after Sasuke because he is his team mate and an important person to him. What's beyond that? Do you seriously believe Kishimoto was going to waste panel time showing Hinata asking Tsunade, Kakashi, Sakura (etc) why was Naruto going after Sasuke? And just to add up, Hinata had already been clear on stating that she accepted Naruto, and everything that goes with him (even admires him for it).
> 
> You coming up with those baseless arguments is pretty narrow-minded.
> 
> We're shown Sakura realizes stuff about Naruto but not that she goes investigating about how or what he feels. We see she investigated about Sasuke but that's a different debate.


 
Shouldn't accuse someone of narrow-mindedness when what you just said is all of personal opinion.



Hikui said:


> Just like what I said, it's interpretation. And just so you know, there's lots of people who back up that reference just like there's lots of people who back up 'he's talking about love'.
> 
> It's ambiguous just like most (if any) NaruSaku romantic panels.


 
Well those individuals are free to here and explain, because it's been proven time and again that arguement is stupid, because it sure doesn't explain the succeeding events. 

And feel free to keep thinking those scenes are insignficant. Because it's sure funny the manga itself sure doesn't think they are. 



Hikui said:


> Everything in this manga it's Kishimoto's fault. If in the end NaruSaku is the final pairing, then I would blame Kishimoto for his inability to portray a believable or successful romance. He's being too ambiguous. I accept NaruSaku can happen, whether it is well done for all the panel it gets is completely different.


 
Well if you don't like Kishimoto's work, then don't read the manga. Because not everyone is going to get there way. It's a fact of life.



Hikui said:


> I said he neglected the way she knew about Kyuubi, or not (?). Her character is fine, even when it could be better, it's not a matter of importance whether she ends up with the hero or not. If that were the case we would have SasuNaru.


 
Oh I agree there, Hinata's development throughout the manga was very lack luster. Shy girls always break out of their shell by the half-way point, but Hinata seems to be the exception to the rule. 



Hikui said:


> Sasuke is the FOIL, he is a direct contrast to Naruto. Even Kishimoto said so. He created Sasuke as a contrast to Naruto. Completely different from head to toe.


 
FOILS don't have to be good-vs-evil / hero-vs-villian. They can be side-kicks, or background characters with similar histories to explain to the reader more about the protagonist.

For instance, Hinata shares Naruto's loneliness and have opposite personalities (shyness vs outgoing). And Gaara shared being a Jinchuuriki and shown us what Naruto could've been if he continued down the path of hatred. His personality of calm is opposite of Naruto's energetic personality.

And that stories can have more than one FOIL. 



Hikui said:


> This just supports it. Kishimoto is pretty clich?. He will go for the more often. Hinata falls more into the love interest category, more into the Yamato Nadeshiko category. Btw, it's also classic in Japan and very popular.


 
No, Sakura is the love interest. 

In his notes explaining the origins of Sasuke and Sakura, Kishimoto told us that his editors wanted Naruto to have a rival (Sasuke) and a love interest (Sakura).

Besides, Naruto's never been interested in Hinata. 

Now Hinata is obviously Naruto's love interest. 



Hikui said:


> I don't. I just think that if she is, it's sloppily done. Not horribly, it's just sloppy. Oh and anticlimatic, but it's all personal opinion.


 
And how it would be anti-climatic? 

BTW, I think Kishi's doing an adequate job. He's giving us hints, but not overly so. 



Hikui said:


> That's why I support that if it happens, it'll be by the end and probably done with a pairing no jutsu, I mean time skip. Romance is not important to the plot line, it would be very weird for me to see any canon pairing in the future chapters. Especially NaruSaku.


 
Yep, the pairings will be resolved in the end. So we have to suffer for at least another year or two. 



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> So what if she's blunt? Had Sakura wanted to call Hinata stupid she would've, just like she calls Naruto all the time. Hinata just literally gave her life for Naruto (and lived, lol), saying that would make her heartless. Sakura is not like that at all. And about her sulking, I just don't think that is...exactly. The original text was something around the lines of: Hinata you must really love Naruto, but it was only the start of the sentence that would be: "Hinata you....", it was implied so they put: Hinata loves Naruto. She was very stressed and surprised, and of course is worried about Hinata and Naruto's health....so her expression is very understandable. She wasn't going to be happy. But it could mean something else, I agree.


 

*Spoiler*: __ 



She did say she was stupid. 

And even with that original text, she's still reflecting on Hinata's affection for Naruto.

Also, why do you say Sakura is surprised about Hinata loving Naruto, when she realized it back in the Chuunin Exam? Sakura was clearly upset when she thought of Hinata loving Naruto.


----------



## Forlong (May 18, 2009)

Hikui said:


> It is part of her character, that said, it doesn't necessarily means it has to be tied to romantic acknowledgment. It would personally ruin it for me as she already happens to have a beautiful friendship with Naruto that I don't want Kishimoto to ruin with a romantic relationship. Friendship> Romance, already. And are they seriously going after Sasuke holding hands? Look Sasuke we missed you enough to hook up over your loss. Nope, I don't like it.


I fail to see your point.  Why should Sasuke care?  He doesn't even _like_ Sakura.  At least we've seen a hint or two that Sakura might feel bad if Naruto and Hinata hook up.  If Naruto and Sakura got together before Sasuke returns, sure he'd feel like he screwed something up.  But he has to live with his mistakes.



Hikui said:


> Had Kishimoto taken more panel time to develop that kind of relationship NaruHina would be canon.


But he hasn't taken time, so what does that say? 



Hikui said:


> We're shown Sakura realizes stuff about Naruto but not that she goes investigating about how or what he feels. We see she investigated about Sasuke but that's a different debate.


Not true.  She knew that Itachi was after Naruto.  How did she find that out?  So, she tried to find out stuff about Naruto too.  I'm sure she just couldn't find anything about him.  But, I'm not going to put any bets on that.



Hikui said:


> This just supports it. Kishimoto is pretty clich?. He will go for the more often. Hinata falls more into the love interest category, more into the Yamato Nadeshiko category. Btw, it's also classic in Japan and very popular.


Tsundere and "First Girl Wins" are popular in Japan too.  And Sakura falls under both.  But I try to keep cliches out of this debate.



Afalstein said:


> So she suddenly realizes that Naruto was all alone when he was younger.  Something Hinata has known for years.  Granted, it shows movement from her habit of punching Naruto all the time, but not particularly romance.


A good point.  Just to make myself clear, what I was trying to do was disproove the statement: "There is no evidance of NaruSaku".  That's just rediculess.  You can call NaruHina more likely, if you want; but NaruSaku is far from impossible.



Afalstein said:


> I could argue that the first two are just general reactions to the concept of Jinchuuriki, but undoubtedly her opinion of Naruto is involved.  But even so, while this shows concern for Naruto, it does not necessarily indicate romance.  That would be why these aren't considered romantic moments by NaruHina (though I can see how they would be considered as such by NaruSaku)  Essentially they reflect a movement from Sakura's former abusive habits to one where she views Naruto as a person.


When they're talking about the possiblity of Naruto dying, she turns into the Niagra Falls; but, when talking about the possiblity of Sasuke dying, she's dry as a bone.  Makes it look like Naruto is now more important to her than Sasuke.  I probably should have brought that up in the first place.



Afalstein said:


> She thinks of both Naruto and Sasuke, implying teamwork more than romance.  Also, true, indicates a desire to improve herself because of Naruto, but this was exhibited by Hinata years ago, and Neji, and Gaara.  Again, simply a move from abusive habits.


I that translation, she thinks: "I promised Naruto we'd be together."  That seems to emply.



Afalstein said:


> Exactly.  You provide an excellent example of your own double standard.
> 
> Naruto said Sakura is a girl he liked.  But we've known for years that NAruto likes Sakura, the question is about how deep that affection is.  Similarly, the question has never been whether Hinata likes Naruto, but whether Naruto likes Hinata.  And the example Ren supplies shows that he "likes people like her."


I didn't say Hinata's feelings weren't honest.  Nor that Naruto didn't have feelings for her.  I pointed out that Naruto has feelings for Sakura _and_ Hinata.  Now, with Sakura, we see evidence other than that statement.  With Hinata, we have hardly anything.
I have admitted NaruHina as a possiblity, but I think NaruSaku is more likely.  I don't understand how Naruto saying he likes Sakura is somehow not romantic, but it magicly is when he says the same thing about Hinata.



XXXTurkey said:


> @Forlong, you said that chapter 310 was evidence that Sakura could cheer him up like Hinata did.  But that chapter 98 and chapter 310 are completely different.
> 
> For example, in chapter 98, Naruto and Hinata were alone.  Chapter 310 has Sai and Yamato.  Sai offers his help in returning Sasuke and when Naruto says thanks, it is to Sai as well.  It is undeniably a team moment, proved by the fact that the team is there and interacting.


Well, Sai didn't say anything until Sakura spoke up, so I fail to see the point.  It was a NaruSaku moment, until he chimed in.  And, if Kiba was on the training field too in chapter 98, wouldn't he have said something too?

You know, you talk about Naruto and Sakura's relationship supporting their team as if it's a bad thing.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship helps them work with their teammates to bring Sasuke back and fight the Akatsuki.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship helped them break through Sai's shell, and turn him against Danzou (who's basically his _father_ in a metaphorical sense).  So how does that harm the relationship?



XXXTurkey said:


> @Forlong again.  I really think you?re skewing the manga if your think that Sakura is crying because she is in love with Naruto when they're talking about the Kyuubi.  Why can?t she be crying because one of her closest friends could be killed?  What makes you think it?s romantic?  Is it just because it?s Sakura crying over Naruto?  I could prove Chouji has romantic feelings for his father on that basis?


As I said earlier in this post, Sakura didn't shed one tear at the thought of Sasuke dying.  She seems to put more importance in Naruto than a guy she said "I love you" to.  My conclution is a valid one.



XXXTurkey said:


> The massive problem with NaruSaku, that I think I have shown, is that the argument is based on the idea that each piece of so called ?evidence? for ?love? between these two is backed up only by the weight of more tenuous ?evidence? for ?love?.  In effect, so many scenes are merely showing that Sakura?s feelings *might* be developing into ?love? then that must mean that overall they must be developing in that way, right?


Well NaruHina shippers have had to wait 400 chapters for _ONE_ indicator that Naruto might love Hinata.

*Spoiler*: __ 



That is Naruto crying and thinking "Thank God" when he realises Hinata's okay.






XXXTurkey said:


> Well, I can see where you?re coming from, really I can.  But it?s a house of cards.  It?s all very tenuous evidence that together doesn?t actually add up to much at all.  To promote NaruSaku, every single ?progression? scene requires bias to get past its own undeniable ambiguity in order to promote romance.  There isn?t a single scene on Sakura?s side that is ?undeniable? for romance and a few that would suggest the opposite of romance.  And it its all at the very least deniable then what is the basis of the Sakura side of NaruSaku in terms of romance?  In a similar vein, all we?ve had from Naruto that we can *prove[/B/ is attraction.  So if there?s a negative reaction on one side and periodic mild interest on the other, where is the pairing?*


*
I like how none of this can be applied to NaruHina. *


----------



## JERITROLL (May 18, 2009)

Wow... XXXTurkey, that's huge! I think I'll have to take a look at that and help undergo this massive project you've placed before us XD!



Afalstein said:


> I must say, that was a far better reply than I was expecting, especially because I didn't think I was being particularly polite myself.  I apologize for the many "abusive" tags, I'm more familiar with the anime, where it was more common.  I do believe she socked him in Part II when he returned and she asked him whether she had become more womanly.  But one event does not make a trend.



It's okay, I've been in that boat myself, it's hard to remember which was which at times XD. As for your tone, it was a heck of a lot better than a lot of people I've debated before, so it was kinda refreshing, TBQH. Anyways, let's carry on.




> It can.  But at the time, it was more than anything Sakura had openly said to Naruto.  The point of the quote, though, is that NaruHina is not completely one-sided.  Naruto at the very least respects Hinata, and has since then.  Sakura has learned to respect Naruto (development, true.), at the very least.  So I say the two have become more or less equal.
> 
> Now, the crux of this is, most NaruSaku say that Sakura has more than respect for Naruto, and Naruto arguably doesn't hold much more than respect for Hinata.  But this would be because he's never considered her in that light before.  Sakura has always had some part of that in her mind, because she knows Naruto adores her.  But even in that light, it's taken a while for her to get as far as she has. And while Sakura may very well have feelings for Naruto, as you point out, she's still not sure what they are.  Hence, in light of recent events, it might not be difficult for her to let go of them.
> 
> But that might just be a pipe-dream of mine.



Very good point. However, as far as the cannon goes, Hinata is a friend in Naruto's eyes, and in Sakura's eyes, Naruto is at least just as much to her. 
Knowing Sakura's character, though, we know she's unlikely to just drop them, especially if... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Sakura's recent actions are supposed to be important.


 Sakura is not one to give up so easily (part of why Naruto made his comment at the beginning of Part 1, although she doesn't have Naruto's hyper-determination; Thus her giving up at the end), and can be jealous (Kishi's words here, not mine), so don't write off her as being able to move on this time.  



> Everything here is a person's opinion.  But it's good to recognize the fact.



Agreed, but sometimes, people will take opinions as facts. Very easy to do, but we should attempt to remove the facts from opinions.



> Okay, that makes a little more sense. But then the comment "How is Hinata's love for Naruto any different" doesn't make sense, because it implies that Hinata's obsession over Naruto is similar to Naruto's obsession over Sakura.  But then, perhaps they thought the person was trying to say Naruto was obsessed with Sakura, so they... well anyway, you get the idea.



Yes, I do. More on that in the next paragraph, because if that was the quote, then I disagree with the original argument. 



> It seems the two scenes have an implied contradiction.  Naruto likes Sakura for the same reason Hinata likes Naruto.  So if either crush is flippant or meaningless for that reason, chances are the other one is too.  Especially because arguably, Hinata's attitude is similar to Sakura's, and Sakura's attitude is slowly changing from devotion to Sasuke to devotion to Naruto.  (Though I don't honestly see Sakura having to "work" to obtain Naruto's acknowledgment).  I'll just leave that there.



Okay. So first off, to place my position, I don't think that Naruto's crush on Sakura is anything like Hinata's crush on Naruto (which I have compared to Sakura's crush on Sasuke, and believe is a fair comparison). So, in a way , you're right, if that were the case, then both would be screwed. However, I don't think it's like that.

I see Naruto's crush on Sakura as initally shallow, yes. Because he didn't know her yet. By the end of chapter 3, he has begun to know who she is by talking to her.  And this continues throughout the series, and both begin to understand the other better. Granted, they are on the same team, but it's still development, and Naruto and Sakura choose to use their free time together as friends. 

Now, I know that Hinata is a side-character, so you really have to give her a bit of slack, but she doesn't know who Naruto is IN MY OPINION. And this is because she has only observed Naruto. When you watch the way someone acts, you only see part of the story. Knowing the person face-to-face makes the connection.

That's the main reason I see it as different, thus making your argument correct. But I disagree that it proves your point. Make sense?



> I can understand the objection with Hinata, but really it doesn't seem like a concern.  We're not really arguing who has the healthier psyche of the two, after all.  And the fact that we haven't seen more development with Hinata doesn't mean that there isn't more.  Just like the fact that Tenten seeming so shallow is largely due to her lack of screen time.  Sasuke wasn't really terribly deep until Itachi showed up, and then pretty one-sided until the VotE.  Chouji had no importance until his battle with Jiroubou.  And so forth.  I can see how Hinata's character AS IT STANDS might seem unhealthy, but that doesn't mean it actually is.  Sakura is a main character, so she naturally gets more development.  But as I've said before, the main girl doesn't always get the main guy.
> 
> A pleasure arguing with you too, TwillightLink



I agree with this completely. I don't think that Hinata *won't* get development, on the contrary, I believe this will lead to development for her. I just disagree with you on the direction it is headed.

Well, that's about it for now, peace!


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 18, 2009)

I'll let *Hikui* and *Afalstein* defend themselves cos i don't think i have the energy for a post as long as the last one.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> Well, Sai didn't say anything until Sakura spoke up, so I fail to see the point.  It was a NaruSaku moment, until he chimed in.  And, if Kiba was on the training field too in chapter 98, wouldn't he have said something too?
> 
> You know, you talk about Naruto and Sakura's relationship supporting their team as if it's a bad thing.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship helps them work with their teammates to bring Sasuke back and fight the Akatsuki.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship helped them break through Sai's shell, and turn him against Danzou (who's basically his _father_ in a metaphorical sense).  So how does that harm the relationship?



Firstly, you can't compare Kiba turning up *after Naruto has already left* in chapter 98 with Sai and Yamato being there with Naruto and Sakura and *actually interacting with them*.

Secondly, just because Naruto and Sakura are speaking to each other, it doesn't make it a "moment", though that seems to be what you are arguing.  I have a coupla questions:

*Why is Sakura crying in that scene?* (if you only answer one of these questions i would like you answer this one the most).
If that is a NaruSaku moment, then why have Sai speak at all?
Is NaruSaku so obvious that it doesn't matter what is going on in the scene? If they are together is it proof of NaruSaku?  Is context *really* irrelevant?

Besides, you're devaluing Sai's input as a character.  He's not just "chiming in".  For him to make such a promise is important as well.  It is a team moment.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> As I said earlier in this post, Sakura didn't shed one tear at the thought of Sasuke dying.  She seems to put more importance in Naruto than a guy she said "I love you" to.  My conclution is a valid one.



You're drawing together two completely unrelated things.  In the scene where Sakura is crying she has learned that one of her closest friends could die.  Her crying is understandable but admit it, *alone* it isn't inherently romantic is it?

The only way you're able to make it even slightly romantic is by using a *separate scene* where Sakura's emotional state is completely different.  Put it this way, she has just taken part in a battle with the man who Sasuke wants to kill (chapter 257 page 2) and it has a pronounced effect on her.  Then she finds out one of her closest friends and team mate has been targetted by one of the most powerful organisations in the world and he could die.

Compare that to a safe and stable environment in a hospital.

You're completely misinterpreting the atmospehere in each scene...



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> Well NaruHina shippers have had to wait 400 chapters for _ONE_ indicator that Naruto might love Hinata.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



And that one indicator is just another step on the progression that has currently gone, from Naruto's side:

"Dark, plain, weirdo"
"Someone who i really like"
"Thank god"

But i have to admit that alone the "thank god" moment isn't inherently romantic.  In the same way that no so called NaruSaku "moments" have been romantic.

However, in Naruto and Hinata's case there can be follow up soon after.  Naruto isn't back in the village yet, not has he spoken to Hinata.  Conversely, there has never been any follow up in Naruto and Sakura's case.



			
				Forlong said:
			
		

> I like how _none_ of this can be applied to NaruHina.



If i stick with the house analogy and put aside the NaruSaku=House of cards thought, i'll put it in a way that compares the two pairings.

NaruHina is like an unfinished house.  The foundations are there, but the rest of the house has yet to be built.  Hinata obviously loves Naruto so on that front everything's fine.  We also know why Hinata loves Naruto.  You could say the previous two sentences show the foundations for this "house".  However, it's Naruto's reaction that will determine whether this phantom house will be completed.

The NaruSaku house on the other hand is stuck at the planning stages.  Until the ambiguity of the scenes between them is resolved, we can't be sure why or even *if* either of them is in love with the other.  I don't think either of them are, but i have to admit it is a possibility that has been left open.  To go back to the analogy, there isn't agreement on what the house looks like, where it will be or even *if* it will be.  In the case of the NaruSaku house it's not about "will this be finished?" it's about "will this even get started?"

Hehe.  Analogies are fun.

But seriously, your comment was open ended, vague and not backed up.  It's tiring answering unsupported comments y'know...

EDIT: Love the reaction my post is getting.  I had wanted to reply to *Louchan*, i just didn't think i would go off on one for such a long time...

Still, as long as people find it worth debating...


----------



## Forlong (May 18, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Firstly, you can't compare Kiba turning up *after Naruto has already left* in chapter 98 with Sai and Yamato being there with Naruto and Sakura and *actually interacting with them*.
> 
> Secondly, just because Naruto and Sakura are speaking to each other, it doesn't make it a "moment", though that seems to be what you are arguing.  I have a coupla questions:
> 
> ...


Let me ask you this: how do Sai's feelings make Sakura's irrelevant?  Would you expect Sai and Yamato to just stand there like idiots?  Kishi-sensei had just finished redeeming Sai's character.  Of course Sai was going to agree to help them.
My point was that Sai's statement doesn't suddenly make no feelings between Naruto and Sakura.  Sakura was the one that spoke first.  And she said "we'll get stronger together".  Sai didn't say anything like that, though clearly promised to help.
*Why is Sakura crying?*
Sakura didn't cry until after Naruto did, so she's crying because he's hurting.  Also because she's hurting and they failed, but Naruto crying is the trigger.
*If that is a NaruSaku moment, then why have Sai speak at all?*
Like I said, Kishi-sensei had just finished redeeming Sai's character.  Would you expect him to just stand there?  Also, even if it _became_ a "team moment", it started out a NaruSaku moment.
*Is NaruSaku so obvious that it doesn't matter what is going on in the scene?
If they are together is it proof of NaruSaku?  Is context really irrelevant?*
I don't follow you with these questions.  Because someone else is present, there can't be a NaruSaku moment? 



XXXTurkey said:


> You're drawing together two completely unrelated things.  In the scene where Sakura is crying she has learned that one of her closest friends could die.  Her crying is understandable but admit it, *alone* it isn't inherently romantic is it?
> 
> The only way you're able to make it even slightly romantic is by using a *separate scene* where Sakura's emotional state is completely different.  Put it this way, she has just taken part in a battle with the man who Sasuke wants to kill (chapter 257 page 2) and it has a pronounced effect on her.  Then she finds out one of her closest friends and team mate has been targetted by one of the most powerful organisations in the world and he could die.


Ooh, good arguement.  I'll have to think hard before I can properly respond.



XXXTurkey said:


> However, in Naruto and Hinata's case there can be follow up soon after.  Naruto isn't back in the village yet, not has he spoken to Hinata.  Conversely, there has never been any follow up in Naruto and Sakura's case.


Don't bet on it.  None of that will be resolved 'til the end of the manga, regardless of which pairing becomes cannon.  That's one reason I think Kishi-sensei will go down the Love Triangle route.



XXXTurkey said:


> If i stick with the house analogy and put aside the NaruSaku=House of cards thought, i'll put it in a way that compares the two pairings.
> 
> NaruHina is like an unfinished house.  The foundations are there, but the rest of the house has yet to be built.  Hinata obviously loves Naruto so on that front everything's fine.  We also know why Hinata loves Naruto.  You could say the previous two sentences show the foundations for this "house".  However, it's Naruto's reaction that will determine whether this phantom house will be completed.


Are you serious?  Naruto and Hinata have had like _two_ complete conversations.  They've only had one mission together.  They aren't even technically "friends".  More like fellows or acquantances.  They've barely laid the foundation.



XXXTurkey said:


> The NaruSaku house on the other hand is stuck at the planning stages.  Until the ambiguity of the scenes between them is resolved, we can't be sure why or even *if* either of them is in love with the other.  I don't think either of them are, but i have to admit it is a possibility that has been left open.  To go back to the analogy, there isn't agreement on what the house looks like, where it will be or even *if* it will be.  In the case of the NaruSaku house it's not about "will this be finished?" it's about "will this even get started?"


They've at least laid a foundation of a stable friendship.  Maybe they are starting without really knowing, but I won't put much store in that.


----------



## Hikui (May 18, 2009)

XXX Turkey it's  Missed The Boat by Modest Mouse: 



> everyone's unhappy, everyone's ashamed
> well we all just got caught looking at somebody else's page
> well nothing ever went quite exactly as we planned
> our ideas held no water but we used them like a dam







Tyrannos said:


> Because Sakura has panel time? More like she's a Main Character and Hinata's a secondary character.
> 
> And Sakura was to what?


I don't necessarily consider Sakura a main charcter, but yeah I'll go your way. We know all about Sakura's motivations and reactions because she's a 'main character' and yes, Hinata is secondary. 

To put it more simply, Sakura had to realize that Naruto actually understood her. From hating him --> to caring about him. It was a part of her character, which progression doesn't need to be romantic. 



Tyrannos said:


> Shouldn't accuse someone of narrow-mindedness when what you just said is all of personal opinion.


Fair enough. 



Tyrannos said:


> Well those individuals are free to here and explain, because it's been proven time and again that arguement is stupid, because it sure doesn't explain the succeeding events.
> And feel free to keep thinking those scenes are insignficant. Because it's sure funny the manga itself sure doesn't think they are.



What succeeding events? I've never seen a flashback about it, I believe it doesn't have a follow up, but you can correct me if you can prove me wrong. It's pretty much in the same boat will all NaruSaku 'romantic' scenes. 

And I never said they were insignificant. 



Tyrannos said:


> Well if you don't like Kishimoto's work, then don't read the manga. Because not everyone is going to get there way. It's a fact of life.


I never said I didn't like his work.  I won't stop liking the manga if NaruSaku happens, it would just annoy me for reasons I've stated before.



Tyrannos said:


> FOILS don't have to be good-vs-evil / hero-vs-villian. They can be side-kicks, or background characters with similar histories to explain to the reader more about the protagonist.
> 
> For instance, Hinata shares Naruto's loneliness and have opposite personalities (shyness vs outgoing). And Gaara shared being a Jinchuuriki and shown us what Naruto could've been if he continued down the path of hatred. His personality of calm is opposite of Naruto's energetic personality.
> 
> And that stories can have more than one FOIL.



And I still don't think she's a foil. The personality traits or circumstances that she shares with Naruto aren't to highlight Naruto's character, but to give more depth to their relationship and Hinata's character. She could have foil moments I guess, but she isn't a foil character. Setting a comparison between Naruto and herself is not a main attribute of her character. 

And yeah, Gaara is also foil. 

I'm quoting XXXTurkey.  



XXXTurkey said:


> The reason Naruto is so angry in the VotE is because he can’t understand Sasuke’s desire to break his bonds when he himself values them himself so highly and has wanted bonds for so long.



There, perhaps the best example to show a foil moment. 




Tyrannos said:


> No, Sakura is the love interest.
> 
> In his notes explaining the origins of Sasuke and Sakura, Kishimoto told us that his editors wanted Naruto to have a rival (Sasuke) and a love interest (Sakura).
> 
> ...



Sorry for my lack of technicality, I mentioned love interest because she is involved in a romantic subplot, but you're right. Hinata won't be a love interest until she is promoted, per see. But I wouldn't like that if he already likes Sakura since it would turn into "Betty and Veronica".  



Tyrannos said:


> And how it would be anti-climatic?


I don't know, I expect a platonic Team 7 reunion and Sakura & Naruto offering Sasuke the same bonds they had before he left. Having Sakura & Naruto as a couple would be awkward for me as a reader. 



Tyrannos said:


> BTW, I think Kishi's doing an adequate job. He's giving us hints, but not overly so.


I did say it's personal opinion. I actually sort of like fanon NaruSaku, but not the manga one. In the manga, NaruSaku has the potential of becoming a great couple but Kishimoto is sloppy if that's what he intends. You just don't discard the main female love interest over a time skip, and get a majority of the audience to sympathize with the shy girl who's in love with the hero (in terms of numbers, both ships are more popular). But that's my opinion, you don't have to agree. 



Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



No, Sakura pointed out Hinata watched Naruto a lot and it's probably in terms of "crush" category (during Part I everything was on crush category until 181 came along (that's the chapter, right?). I don't think Sakura ever thought Hinata's feelings were serious enough for her to risk her life that way. And her face was upset for ambiguous reasons.  I'm with XXXTurkey on this, unless she says it I won't change my mind, that's the way with fiction.




I'll continue later.


----------



## Hikui (May 18, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I fail to see your point.  Why should Sasuke care?  He doesn't even _like_ Sakura.  At least we've seen a hint or two that Sakura might feel bad if Naruto and Hinata hook up.  *If Naruto and Sakura got together before Sasuke returns, sure he'd feel like he screwed something up.  But he has to live with his mistakes.*



Of course you fail to see the point, because that wasn't the point. Sasuke wouldn't give a damn, I think. I meant it would ruin it for me as a reader because even when Sasuke doesn't care there's people (including me) that care. If Sakura and Naruto end up together, that would mean they're both each other most important person. There wouldn't be a Team 7, it would be Naruto & Sakura babying Sasuke. And Sasuke who needs healing would be second place to their romantic relationship. 

As long as Sasuke is their most important person whether is platonic or romantic, NaruSaku can't happen. (and NaruHina either, and that's the main reason why a Timeskip will most likely happen ). 

And about the bold, I think you have to take into account where the manga is going. Kishimoto will forgive Sasuke and he will have enough to deal with (village hate, etc.) to make NaruSaku happen in his face, unless he dies of course. If this were a more serious and realistic manga, Sasuke would probably get everything he deserved for his wrong doings. But this is shonen, directed at an audience of 11-16 (around that) on which Naruto defeats the main villain and gets Sasuke back. If it doesn't happen, I would be surprised, but it's not likely.  



Forlong said:


> But he hasn't taken time, so what does that say?


Had Kishimoto placed more highlight on Hinata doing all kinds of stuff to help Naruto, what would that tell? It would mean she's ending up with the hero. He didn't do that because it was irrelevant to the plot and because it would ruin the 'final pairing' moment. 



Forlong said:


> Not true.  She knew that Itachi was after Naruto.  How did she find that out?  So, she tried to find out stuff about Naruto too.  I'm sure she just couldn't find anything about him.  But, I'm not going to put any bets on that.



Show me manga panels. 



Forlong said:


> Tsundere and "First Girl Wins" are popular in Japan too.  And Sakura falls under both.  But I try to keep cliches out of this debate.


Yeah I agree, but it is fact that Tsunderes are more popular in the west, since some look over them as too meek. In Japan Yamato Nadeshiko is more valued as she represents the perfect Japanese wife. So if Sakura is "First Girl Wins" that means Hinata is the Lucky/Unlucky Childhood friend, who's also popular? (Everything is popular since it's been done hundreds of times ). And let's not forget that Sakura could be a Freeloader, but you're right let's keep the cliches out of this debate. 

I'm done for now


----------



## Forlong (May 18, 2009)

Hikui said:


> What succeeding events? I've never seen a flashback about it, I believe it doesn't have a follow up, but you can correct me if you can prove me wrong. It's pretty much in the same boat will all NaruSaku 'romantic' scenes.


Let's flip the question: how many NaruHina moments have been followed up on?  Answer: zero.  So you're no better off.



Hikui said:


> Sorry for my lack of technicality, I mentioned love interest because she is involved in a romantic subplot, but you're right. Hinata won't be a love interest until she is promoted, per see. But I wouldn't like that if he already likes Sakura since it would turn into "Betty and Veronica".


He does.  Unless you think he "got over" her for no reason.



Hikui said:


> I did say it's personal opinion. I actually sort of like fanon NaruSaku, but not the manga one. In the manga, NaruSaku has the potential of becoming a great couple but Kishimoto is sloppy if that's what he intends. You just don't discard the main female love interest over a time skip, and get a majority of the audience to sympathize with the shy girl who's in love with the hero (in terms of numbers, both ships are more popular). But that's my opinion, you don't have to agree.



How has Kishi-sensei "discarded" Sakura.  She's had more pannel time than Hinata.  Ten times more!



Hikui said:


> Of course you fail to see the point, because that wasn't the point. Sasuke wouldn't give a damn, I think. I meant it would ruin it for me as a reader because even when Sasuke doesn't care there's people (including me) that care. If Sakura and Naruto end up together, that would mean they're both each other most important person. There wouldn't be a Team 7, it would be Naruto & Sakura babying Sasuke. And Sasuke who needs healing would be second place to their romantic relationship.


You're saying NaruSaku would imbalance Team 7?  Wouldn't SasuSaku do the same?  They would treat Sasuke like a brother.  It wouldn't be to hard for Sakura to look at him that way, would it?



Hikui said:


> Show me manga panels.


Here you go.


----------



## Supa Swag (May 19, 2009)

*poofs in*
I'm surprised that those who are showing NaruSaku proof haven't brought up what I feel is the biggest evidence for Sakura probably feeling something for Naruto: her expression. There's one in particular I've seen her give to Naruto twice and no one else as far as I remember.

1) When she learns that Naruto is the one that saved her from Gaara.

2) When Naruto comes back in Part 2

The expression I'm talking about is the one where her eyes are half lidded and she shows a soft smile. In my experience that type of expression signifies deep affection.

Maybe I'm wrong and she's shown that expression towards someone other than Naruto. Whatever. I still don't think any pairing will happen.

*poofs out*


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 19, 2009)

^Yeah anyone who can't see the deep exclusive feelings Sakura has for Naruto are doing some damn selective reading.


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 19, 2009)

Supa Swag said:


> *poofs in*
> I'm surprised that those who are showing NaruSaku proof haven't brought up what I feel is the biggest evidence for Sakura probably feeling something for Naruto: her expression. There's one in particular I've seen her give to Naruto twice and no one else as far as I remember.
> 
> 1) When she learns that Naruto is the one that saved her from Gaara.
> ...



Its not that we haven't seen it perse (its actually been brought up a lot in the NS FC as "her smile", the gaara one was my favorite NS moment tbh), but its just that expressions are not really easy to confer to a rival ship in a debate as evidence. It would be passed off faster than you could say "selective interpretation" so, its not really worth bringing it up in that type of situation is all.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 19, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I don't necessarily consider Sakura a main charcter, but yeah I'll go your way. We know all about Sakura's motivations and reactions because she's a 'main character' and yes, Hinata is secondary.
> 
> To put it more simply, Sakura had to realize that Naruto actually understood her. From hating him --> to caring about him. It was a part of her character, which progression doesn't need to be romantic.



Nobody said those moments were romantic.   As we NaruSaku's keep repeating, it's _leading_ up to romance.

In Part I, a lot of Sakura's development was her discovering the real Naruto, how he wasn't that annoying clown that kept pestering her all these years.   And early on in Part 2, she finally understands who Naruto truly is. 

Now it all boils down to who she decides on.  Someone who abandoned her for revenge?  Or that someone who put his life on the line for her sake?



Hikui said:


> What succeeding events? I've never seen a flashback about it, I believe it doesn't have a follow up, but you can correct me if you can prove me wrong. It's pretty much in the same boat will all NaruSaku 'romantic' scenes.
> 
> And I never said they were insignificant.



Course you are, you keep downplaying it.

You keep saying the events in chapters 297, 299, 343, and more aren't signficant.  Especially when some events directly parallels other moments that NaruHina and SasuSaku fans regard heavily as "romantic". 

For example, those who say Sakura's moment with the Mini-Kyuubi isn't romantic, but Sakura running up to Curse Seal Sasuke is romantic.



Hikui said:


> And I still don't think she's a foil. The personality traits or circumstances that she shares with Naruto aren't to highlight Naruto's character, but to give more depth to their relationship and Hinata's character. She could have foil moments I guess, but she isn't a foil character. Setting a comparison between Naruto and herself is not a main attribute of her character.



Naruto and Hinata doesn't have a relationship.  

During both in the Chuunin Exam and recently, Hinata has flashbacks of the past of how she viewed Naruto.  Which by definition is that of a FOIL.   She helps us to understand him as much as for herself.

Where she failed, Naruto succeeded.



Hikui said:


> Sorry for my lack of technicality, I mentioned love interest because she is involved in a romantic subplot, but you're right. Hinata won't be a love interest until she is promoted, per see. But I wouldn't like that if he already likes Sakura since it would turn into "Betty and Veronica".



I honestly don't see that, the manga is reaching the climax of the story and soon to end (in a year), so there isn't really time for such complications such as that.

Even what happened in Chapter 437, I honestly don't see any development.  I still believe the only way NaruHina would be canon is if Kishi throws her together at the end.  



Hikui said:


> I don't know, I expect a platonic Team 7 reunion and Sakura & Naruto offering Sasuke the same bonds they had before he left. Having Sakura & Naruto as a couple would be awkward for me as a reader.



Well of course it would be a platonic scene.   Naruto and Sakura would be happy Sasuke would be back.   Unfortunately, I feel Kishimoto is going to have them reunite among the action where pleasentries would have to be held off until after the battles.   



Hikui said:


> I did say it's personal opinion. I actually sort of like fanon NaruSaku, but not the manga one. In the manga, NaruSaku has the potential of becoming a great couple but Kishimoto is sloppy if that's what he intends. You just don't discard the main female love interest over a time skip, and get a majority of the audience to sympathize with the shy girl who's in love with the hero (in terms of numbers, both ships are more popular). But that's my opinion, you don't have to agree.



That's the thing, people are expecting Sasuke and Sakura to pick up where they left off, like nothing happened.

And on top of that, Kishimoto hasn't shown that Sakura still has feelings for Sasuke.  Instead, he's been hinting at Sakura's developing feelings for Naruto.  To which people cannot ignore.

As for Hinata, I feel she was just used as a way to show that Naruto wasn't hated by everyone in the beginning.   I believe he intended on her winning Naruto's heart, because he always had feelings for Sakura.  



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> No, Sakura pointed out Hinata watched Naruto a lot and it's probably in terms of "crush" category (during Part I everything was on crush category until 181 came along (that's the chapter, right?). I don't think Sakura ever thought Hinata's feelings were serious enough for her to risk her life that way. And her face was upset for ambiguous reasons.  I'm with XXXTurkey on this, unless she says it I won't change my mind, that's the way with fiction.



To me, that's the same thing.   "She's always been watching you."  To me was saying, "she likes you".   Even your fellow NaruHinas argued as such in the past.

But because Hinata loves Naruto, doesn't guarantee she's going to win his hearts.  After all, in Shonen, the shy-girl typically gets the shaft, while the Tsundere wins.


----------



## mystic868 (May 19, 2009)

IMO if Kishimoto would like to make NaruHina, he would probably do it near the end of the manga. For example: As the story progress, feelings case will be solved (like Sakura will finally confess to Naruto and they will be together until the end), then Sasuke will face his old team 7, after some fights he will change his behaviour seeing his old village being attacked by his comrades, and Sakura will save him. Then Naruto will realise that she still loves him and will stay aside letting them be happy together. Then Hinata will confess her feelings - that would be sth better than it is now. 
It's to early for solid relationship between them for the rest of manga, especially that many dangerous and important things are still awaiting for Naruto. IMO as the confession was already done it showed us Naruto as the great source of inspiration for ppl like Hinata. It was I think good trigger for Sakura to start doing sth obvious with her feelings for him(if they're not already love like then they should soon become like that).


----------



## Hikui (May 19, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Let's flip the question: how many NaruHina moments have been followed up on?  Answer: zero.  So you're no better off.


I don't get the question....all NaruHina moments had closure (even when it's only romantic from her side). Naruto cheered Hinata on against Neji, Hinata stood up against him so Naruto could "watch" her. Naruto acknowledges that "Hinata is awesome". 

Naruto told Hinata he wasn't confident on winning against Neji. Hinata replies with the "Proud failure" speech. Naruto in return tells her he likes people like her. 

Then when she finally confesses we get flashbacks of how Naruto changed Hinata (that was part of her character in Part I) and she confesses. We'll have to wait if there's resolution, if this isn't addressed again then it would be a bad omen (and bad writing). 

*Most* (not all) NaruSaku 'moments' don't have closure like this with a notable exception of the Poalt (which I believe is Naruto giving up). Yamato tells Sakura she 'cares' a lot about Naruto, Naruto wakes up and then nothing. It isn't addressed again. Sakura suggest to feed Naruto, Sai interruptus, Sakura doesn't react. And there's nothing, it is never mentioned again. Had Sakura once remembered those instances and thought _(I don't know...XD)_: "Could it be that..."/ or something of the like then I would certainly take into consideration that she might like Naruto romantically. Or if she states that she's over Sasuke, something. 

The manga is coming to an end, after all is done, there will be lots of action and little time for romance (it's all about the pacing). If Kishimoto is dragging the NaruSaku relationship this far and plans to make it cannon, he needs to set a move now. But we'll see. 

I have little time....I don't think I addressed this as well as I wanted. 




Forlong said:


> He does.  Unless you think he "got over" her for no reason.


I believe Naruto started to get over Sakura in the Poalt/hospital scene. He might still ask her on dates out of habit but I don't think he's pursuing her seriously anymore. You've read why before, I won't bother.



Forlong said:


> How has Kishi-sensei "discarded" Sakura.  She's had more pannel time than Hinata.  Ten times more!



I'm sorry but I didn't mean Sakura.  If I wasn't clear, I meant Sasuke as Sakura's love interest. I've read lots of people say that she got over him on the time skip, and that just shouldn't happen in good works of fiction. If she got over Sasuke, we need to see a *clear* progression of that, or just make the character say it. I agree that she cares a lot more about Naruto now and all that jazz but it isn't enough to make me think she is in love with Naruto now and got over Sasuke. At least not both. 




Forlong said:


> You're saying NaruSaku would imbalance Team 7?  Wouldn't SasuSaku do the same?  They would treat Sasuke like a brother.  It wouldn't be to hard for Sakura to look at him that way, would it?


I never said SasuSaku would be canon. When Sasuke gets back, it would be impossible for him to start a romantic relationship. If SasuSaku is canon, it'll be after a Time Skip. So, when Sasuke gets back,I hope there'll be no relationship whatsoever inside Team 7. Clear enough? 

And about Sakura looking at Sasuke that way....who knows, if Kishimoto wanted us to know Sakura could look at Sasuke as a brother he should've indicated or hinted at. The closest it gets is to Sakura getting over Sasuke, and still wanting him back. But a brother? I'm sorry, I don't think so...perhaps a friend. BUT Sasuke was never a friend to Sakura, to her Sasuke was always the person she loved/had romantic feelings for; it would be hard for me to think Sakura could regard him as such when they never started on a friends basis (from Sakura's point of view). Sasuke wasn't friend--> love interest. For Sakura it was first love interest then she got to knew him and instead of becoming a friend, he became a "person she loved". Hope I made sense. 

And from a "bond" point of view....why would Sasuke need two brothers (Naruto & Sakura, Itachi is gone)? 



Forlong said:


> Here you go.


Are you serious? Are you telling me Sakura individually investigated about Itachi because she knew he was going after Naruto? Sasuke is just in the panels below....She investigated about Sasuke, and got also info as Naruto....I don't think Naruto was her main objective. 

Tyrannos I'll get back to you later, I'm kinda busy right now.


----------



## Hikui (May 19, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Nobody said those moments were romantic.   As we NaruSaku's keep repeating, it's _leading_ up to romance.
> 
> In Part I, a lot of Sakura's development was her discovering the real Naruto, how he wasn't that annoying clown that kept pestering her all these years.   And early on in Part 2, she finally understands who Naruto truly is.
> 
> Now it all boils down to who she decides on.  Someone who abandoned her for revenge?  Or that someone who put his life on the line for her sake?



First, I'm sorry for stating those moments were romantic, it was something I generalized. 

I don't know whether a lot of Sakura's development was centered around Naruto. To be honest, most of Sakura's timeline involved Sasuke. All the 'realizations' about Naruto where scarce during part I until the Poalt, where she gets the deal. In my personal opinion, Part I, was about Sakura finding out that she didn't contribute to Team 7, who Sasuke was, and who Naruto was. I wouldn't go for the "most". 

About her 'deciding', it is quite unlucky that love doesn't work that way. I believe it was you who said "you love who you love". 




Tyrannos said:


> Course you are, you keep downplaying it.
> 
> You keep saying the events in chapters 297, 299, 343, and more aren't signficant.  Especially when some events directly parallels other moments that NaruHina and SasuSaku fans regard heavily as "romantic".
> 
> For example, those who say Sakura's moment with the Mini-Kyuubi isn't romantic, but Sakura running up to Curse Seal Sasuke is romantic.



Hmmm, thinking it isn't romantic isn't downplaying it. I see those moments could imply romance, and accept that some moments are important to Sakura's development as a character and her relationship with Naruto, but I just don't think they're romantic. Period. 

Take as an example:Sakura wanting to feed Naruto was after a flashback that involved Sasuke, not about Sakura feeling tru lub for Naruto, it is significant but not necessarily romantic. I think Poalt, 297, her running to Kyuubi are also significant. Naruto lying about thinking on asking Sakura out on a date, however, isn't significant as the point wasn't the "date request" but him thinking about Sasuke AND lying. 





Tyrannos said:


> Naruto and Hinata doesn't have a relationship.



I didn't mean a romantic relationship. I think this is where the main problem resides. I do consider Naruto and Hinata at least friends. 



Tyrannos said:


> During both in the Chuunin Exam and recently, Hinata has flashbacks of the past of how she viewed Naruto.  Which by definition is that of a FOIL.   She helps us to understand him as much as for herself.
> 
> Where she failed, Naruto succeeded.


I still fail to see the comparison. 
Hinata doesn't give us new information about Naruto, all she says we already know, the "foil" would be futile. I'll repeat, the main point isn't how Naruto succeed and she didn't, but how Hinata's character changed because of Naruto. Those interactions don't 'highlight' Naruto's character, they serve us to understand Hinata's character. 

Now repeating myself again, Hinata might be used as a foil sometimes but that isn't her purpose. Virtually, any two characters can serve as foil to each other if they're put together properly. I could say Konohamaru is foil, Sakura is foil, Kiba is foil,*insert character* is foil if I set a logical comparison. 



Tyrannos said:


> I honestly don't see that, the manga is reaching the climax of the story and soon to end (in a year), so there isn't really time for such complications such as that.
> 
> Even what happened in Chapter 437, I honestly don't see any development.  I still believe the only way NaruHina would be canon is if Kishi throws her together at the end.



For me is the other way around. It seems that Kishimoto is only putting obstacles on the NaruSaku relationship, there's not enough time to making them happen after such complications. They need to clear out why Sakura got over Sasuke, clear Sakura's feelings for Naruto, have someone confess, make them cannon, all amongst battles and Sasuke. 

It could have been easy, but Kishimoto made it complicated for setting, for example, Hinata's confession in the way he did. He could've downplayed her crush, he didn't. He could've downplayed her confession, he didn't. Etc. 

How I see it, NaruHina has high possibilities of becoming cannon by the end, in a non flashy way and everyone happy. And a timeskip. If NaruSaku happens soon, their relationship would need a lot of emphasis, and I don't see that happening. 



Tyrannos said:


> Well of course it would be a platonic scene.   Naruto and Sakura would be happy Sasuke would be back.   Unfortunately, I feel Kishimoto is going to have them reunite among the action where pleasentries would have to be held off until after the battles.



Of course.  With the reunion, I meant the aftermath. 



Tyrannos said:


> To me, that's the same thing.   "She's always been watching you."  To me was saying, "she likes you".   Even your fellow NaruHinas argued as such in the past.
> 
> But because Hinata loves Naruto, doesn't guarantee she's going to win his hearts.  After all, in Shonen, the shy-girl typically gets the shaft, while the Tsundere wins.



Exactly my point. There's a vast if not gigantic difference between "liking" and "loving" someone. Sakura knew Hinata liked Naruto, she didn't know she loved him. It's VERY different. 

Well see about the last. It does seems Kishimoto has a soft spot for Hinata. We'll see. 

End.


----------



## Forlong (May 19, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Its not that we haven't seen it perse (its actually been brought up a lot in the NS FC as "her smile", the gaara one was my favorite NS moment tbh), but its just that expressions are not really easy to confer to a rival ship in a debate as evidence. It would be passed off faster than you could say "selective interpretation" so, its not really worth bringing it up in that type of situation is all.


Not true.  50% of human comunication is visual.  Body laguage.  So half of what you're saying ain't coming out of your mouth.



Hikui said:


> I don't get the question....all NaruHina moments had closure (even when it's only romantic from her side). Naruto cheered Hinata on against Neji, Hinata stood up against him so Naruto could "watch" her. Naruto acknowledges that "Hinata is awesome".
> 
> Naruto told Hinata he wasn't confident on winning against Neji. Hinata replies with the "Proud failure" speech. Naruto in return tells her he likes people like her.
> 
> ...


Ah, I misunderstood the question.  To me follow up is a future referance to the event and building on it.
Let me ask this question: why hasn't Kishi-sensei resolved those NaruSaku moments?  The fact that he's made so many lose ends between the two of them indicates that their relationship is very important to the plot.  You said that if he doesn't follow up on NaruHina, it will be bad writing.  But wouldn't the same be true if he didn't do that for NaruSaku?



Hikui said:


> I believe Naruto started to get over Sakura in the Poalt/hospital scene. He might still ask her on dates out of habit but I don't think he's pursuing her seriously anymore. You've read why before, I won't bother.


You have yet to proove that.  Saying he's asking her on dates out of habit makes him sound like a stupid child.  He doesn't exactly get a lot of free time to plan proper dates.



Hikui said:


> I'm sorry but I didn't mean Sakura.  If I wasn't clear, I meant Sasuke as Sakura's love interest. I've read lots of people say that she got over him on the time skip, and that just shouldn't happen in good works of fiction. If she got over Sasuke, we need to see a *clear* progression of that, or just make the character say it. I agree that she cares a lot more about Naruto now and all that jazz but it isn't enough to make me think she is in love with Naruto now and got over Sasuke. At least not both.


And if she cares for Naruto more than the guy she said "I love you" to, you can't blaim my logic.



Hikui said:


> I never said SasuSaku would be canon. When Sasuke gets back, it would be impossible for him to start a romantic relationship. If SasuSaku is canon, it'll be after a Time Skip. So, when Sasuke gets back, I hope there'll be no relationship whatsoever inside Team 7. Clear enough?


You'll be sadly disappointed.  I don't think a teammate romance will imbalance the team.  Some NaruSaku moments become Team 7 moments.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship strengthens their entire team.



Hikui said:


> And about Sakura looking at Sasuke that way....who knows, if Kishimoto wanted us to know Sakura could look at Sasuke as a brother he should've indicated or hinted at. The closest it gets is to Sakura getting over Sasuke, and still wanting him back. But a brother? I'm sorry, I don't think so...perhaps a friend. BUT Sasuke was never a friend to Sakura, to her Sasuke was always the person she loved/had romantic feelings for; it would be hard for me to think Sakura could regard him as such when they never started on a friends basis (from Sakura's point of view). Sasuke wasn't friend--> love interest. For Sakura it was first love interest then she got to knew him and instead of becoming a friend, he became a "person she loved". Hope I made sense.


As they only interacted once in part 2, we can't be to sure.



Hikui said:


> It could have been easy, but Kishimoto made it complicated for setting, for example, Hinata's confession in the way he did. He could've downplayed her crush, he didn't. He could've downplayed her confession, he didn't. Etc.


He wants to do Hinata's character justice.



Hikui said:


> How I see it, NaruHina has high possibilities of becoming cannon by the end, in a non flashy way and everyone happy. And a timeskip. If NaruSaku happens soon, their relationship would need a lot of emphasis, and I don't see that happening.


No pairing will be happening any time soon.  The manga still has a good two years of life left in it.  Plenty of time for Kishi-sensei to resolve romantic sub-plots.


----------



## mystic868 (May 20, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Sakura suggest to feed Naruto, Sai interruptus, Sakura doesn't react.(



Well not exactly. She stopped Naruto from punching Sai's face because of his impolite will of feeding him instead of Sakura


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 20, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Not true.  50% of human comunication is visual.  Body laguage.  So half of what you're saying ain't coming out of your mouth.



You misunderstood me. I said that facial expressions woulden't fly in a debate thread like this, i never said anything about the facts of visual communication.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 20, 2009)

Hikui said:


> Well see about the last. *It does seems Kishimoto has a soft spot for Hinata.* We'll see.



Wow I didn't have this impression at all


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 20, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> Wow I didn't have this impression at all



I think that person is referring to the premanga spread, and his comments about Hinata being "cute but plain" in his interviews. Of course it woulden't really matter, unless he did have something up his sleeve for her in the longrun for NaruHina anyway.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 20, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> I think that person is referring to the premanga spread, and his comments about Hinata being "cute but plain" in his interviews. Of course it woulden't really matter, unless he did have something up his sleeve for her in the longrun for NaruHina anyway.



I disagree with the premanga spread's "favoritism" NaruHina claims as well. There is nothing he has favored NaruHina with except the same exact doubt there is for the other pairings.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 20, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> I disagree with the premanga spread's "favoritism" NaruHina claims as well. There is nothing he has favored NaruHina with except the same exact doubt there is for the other pairings.



I agree w/ you Izzy, as Kishi's comments on Sakura show, it isn't all about design. Kishi clearly stated that she was originally not cute, but over time has become the current design. So even though I honestly believe that Kishi had the entire series planned out ahead of time, there's a few comments he's made that didn't have to do with the plot. That includes the ones on Hinata.


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## izzyisozaki (May 20, 2009)

^I think translations are what make the fans go wild. For instance, in the copyrighted edition I read, Kishi was simply making a point that he sucks at drawing girls and in fact he tries to draw her cute. He also made the point about her character. That girls aren't just cute [referring to Sakura] and that they have a nasty attitude as well, thus she was a bitch under those cute looks. Development on this behalf makes her an interesting character.


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## JERITROLL (May 20, 2009)

^Yeah, I read something to that extent IIRC in the trans I read (I don't have the early volumes yet, though I really need to...). But alas, such is the curse of the translated work; you never are quite sure how much bias there is, if any at all. Personally, I've always said that the art screams louder than the words, though, so everything will make sense at the end of it....


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## Tyrannos (May 20, 2009)

Don't forget that Kishimoto said that some characters were inspired by places he lived as a kid.  And there is a suburb of Tokyo named "Hinata".  



Hikui said:


> First, I'm sorry for stating those moments were romantic, it was something I generalized.
> 
> I don't know whether a lot of Sakura's development was centered around Naruto. To be honest, most of Sakura's timeline involved Sasuke. All the 'realizations' about Naruto where scarce during part I until the Poalt, where she gets the deal. In my personal opinion, Part I, was about Sakura finding out that she didn't contribute to Team 7, who Sasuke was, and who Naruto was. I wouldn't go for the "most".
> 
> About her 'deciding', it is quite unlucky that love doesn't work that way. I believe it was you who said "you love who you love".


 
You don't understand, that's all what people see in Sakura during Part 1. That her world revolved solely around Sasuke, and not Team 7 as a whole. That's what Kishimoto said Part 1 was about, them building their bonds.

Sakura's fangirling for Sasuke is what prevented her from growing. But yet when she saw Naruto's progression, she had to sit back and reflect. Eventually they got so far ahead that she got discouraged, until Naruto and Sasuke's lives depended on it. That's when she began to wake up. 

At the end of Part 1, when Sakura gave up on Sasuke, it was Naruto to gave her hope and she pushed herself during those three years to become someone strong. And when she found the truth of Naruto and discovered Sasuke's past, she became determined to protect them. Which we know all too well the theme of the "Will of Fire" - One becomes strong in protecting those they care about.

So it wasn't her love for Sasuke that made her develop, it was her bonds with Team 7 that made her strong.



Hikui said:


> Hmmm, thinking it isn't romantic isn't downplaying it. I see those moments could imply romance, and accept that some moments are important to Sakura's development as a character and her relationship with Naruto, but I just don't think they're romantic. Period.
> 
> Take as an example Sakura wanting to feed Naruto was after a flashback that involved Sasuke, not about Sakura feeling tru lub for Naruto, it is significant but not necessarily romantic. I think Poalt, 297, her running to Kyuubi are also significant. Naruto lying about thinking on asking Sakura out on a date, however, isn't significant as the point wasn't the "date request" but him thinking about Sasuke AND lying.


 
See, there you go with your bias again. "Feeling tru lub"? The focusing on the "lies". 

Was there any significance to those lies? NO! So drop it!

The only lie that had any relevance to the story was when Yamato told Naruto that Sakura lied for his own sake. But yet out of that lie, Naruto vowed to never use the Kyuubi again. And guess what? Naruto hasn't purposely used the Kyuubi since.


As for Chapter 343, all you see is "it's about Sasuke"! Well look again! 

Naruto is trying to eat his raman and Sakura looks at his bandaged arm, then she immedately recalls the moment where she's healing it. She's scolding him, and Naruto's being chipper self. And when Naruto says, "It feels like we are getting closer to Sasuke", she is in shock.

Why would she be in shock for? And then move her stool closer together?

Which BTW, moving a stool closer together is a classic romantic cliché. 

Then offer to feed him? (Another romantic cliché). To which even Naruto himself is surprised and later regarded as romantic.


Gee, could it be this is actually be a romantic moment? God forbid! 




Hikui said:


> I didn't mean a romantic relationship. I think this is where the main problem resides. I do consider Naruto and Hinata at least friends.


 
Yes, they are friends. 



Hikui said:


> I still fail to see the comparison.
> 
> Hinata doesn't give us new information about Naruto, all she says we already know, the "foil" would be futile. I'll repeat, the main point isn't how Naruto succeed and she didn't, but how Hinata's character changed because of Naruto. Those interactions don't 'highlight' Naruto's character, they serve us to understand Hinata's character.


 
Well not my fault you don't see the simple comparison of Hinata telling us that she liked Naruto because they were both alienated. And contrasts where Naruto fought against it, she didn't. 



Hikui said:


> Now repeating myself again, Hinata might be used as a foil sometimes but that isn't her purpose. Virtually, any two characters can serve as foil to each other if they're put together properly. I could say Konohamaru is foil, Sakura is foil, Kiba is foil,*insert character* is foil if I set a logical comparison.


 
My God! You are really being absurd now! All in order to protect Hinata's character, you start throwing out terms and stating every character's a foil. 

Instead of reading terms online, I suggest you take a literature course in college. 



Hikui said:


> For me is the other way around. It seems that Kishimoto is only putting obstacles on the NaruSaku relationship, there's not enough time to making them happen after such complications. They need to clear out why Sakura got over Sasuke, clear Sakura's feelings for Naruto, have someone confess, make them cannon, all amongst battles and Sasuke.


 
Okay, then show me these obstacles.

No opinions, show me definitive proof.



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Seems you're blaming Kishimoto for screwing up NaruHina.


*Spoiler*: __ 



"Kishimoto ruined NaruHina because he didn't give her a romantic confession scene." Oh please! Be grateful it was as a powerful moment as it was. 

But that confession isn't going to ammount to a hill of beans if Naruto doesn't requit her love. Which I honestly still don't see him doing, because he doesn't have feelings for her.





*Spoiler*: _As for NS_ 



Do explain this "emphasis", you are talking about?

To me, the material's all right there. Naruto's been pushing himself to bring back Sasuke, partly due to that promise (which Sakura still remembers). He's saved her life. She cares about Naruto. And Kishimoto's thrown in romantic cliche's.

And of course the classic theme of the loser winning the heart of the girl he's always loved.

But instead, you NH's switch it around where Hinata's the loser, even when the story isn't about her.






Hikui said:


> Of course. With the reunion, I meant the aftermath.


 
So romance picks up where it left off, even after Sasuke tried to kill them and avoided. Yeah, I see that happening. 

I honestly see Kishimoto doing the old love triangle cliche resolution.



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
He has a soft spot for Hinata? And what proof do you have? 

The only secondary character that Kishimoto has a fondness for is Shikamaru. Whom was even in the Naruto pilot.


*Spoiler*: __ 



And still, Sakura had to reflect on that, and still had a upset expression on her face. Why would that be?


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## Erendhyl (May 20, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> You don't understand, that's all what people see in Sakura during Part 1. That her world revolved solely around Sasuke, and not Team 7 as a whole. That's what Kishimoto said Part 1 was about, them building their bonds.
> 
> Sakura's fangirling for Sasuke is what prevented her from growing. But yet when she saw Naruto's progression, she had to sit back and reflect. Eventually they got so far ahead that she got discouraged, until Naruto and Sasuke's lives depended on it. That's when she began to wake up.
> 
> ...



Before I say anything, I want to apologize in advance if this comes out sounding harsh, Tyrannos. Your argument is something that I've always been annoyed by, but have never actually seen in a thread in which I am able to counter it, so I apologize if I wind up taking out all my rage in this post.

First off, I _do not think_ that Sakura's part one world revolved all around Sasuke. I am a huge fan of Sakura's character, and I find the idea that her character revolved entirely around a boy for a solid 238 chapters to be an insult to the development that she did have. However, I disagree with your idea that her crush on Sasuke held her back. I agree that it did so in the beginning, but Sakura's development throughout part one was _not_ impeded by her love of Sasuke.

When we first see Sakura, she is a complete fangirl for Sasuke, as evidenced by her introduction of herself in chapter 4. She liked Sasuke, her dream was something involving Sasuke (probably marriage), her hobbies were something involving Sasuke. And she disliked Naruto. She was also rather shallow and couldn't empathize well with people, judging by her description of how Naruto is lucky to not have parents. And, judging by how easily she got caught in Kakashi's genjutsu during the bell training, she wasn't very talented as a ninja beyond her mental abilities.

However, her change from this shallow girl with an unattractive personality was not something that waited until Sasuke left to happen. It was Sasuke's own comment words to her, "you're annoying" that originally caused her to start seeing outside herself. She wondered if this was what Naruto felt like, and she vowed to be nicer to him. Where earlier in that same chapter she had displayed a complete inability to see the pain that Naruto (and Sasuke as well) would be going through as orphans, she could now see that Naruto would feel bad as well when she treated him harshly. Even though we do not see her actually acting on this decision, the fact that she was thinking of how someone else felt was definitely progress from where she had been earlier in that chapter.

The next major stepping stone for Sakura occurred in the Land of Waves, when she cries for Sasuke's "death". Before she actually starts crying, she states rule #25, the one that forbids ninja to show their emotions. By crying, she breaks that rule. This represents a change from how she behaved in the Academy, where she used Inner Sakura to show her true emotions if she felt they would get her into trouble. Here, _Sakura_ shows her true emotions, despite the fact that her true emotions openly break one of the main shinobi rules.

Next was the scene in the Forest of Death where Sakura cut her hair. Originally, she had grown her hair long in order to impress Sasuke. Symbolically, by cutting it off, she is saying that impressing Sasuke is no longer her number one priority. Instead, her priority is to protect her teammates. Right here, she tries to do that with minimal success. Frankly, if Team 10 hadn't intervened, she would have failed, and at least Sasuke would have been killed. By herself, Sakura was not very effective against the Otonin. However, this is to be expected. Even right before the Chuunin Exam, she was described as "worse than Naruto" by Sasuke, who at this point hadn't even seen that Naruto had the Kyuubi within him. Sakura was naturally talented in chakra control, analysis, and genjutsu, but she was never shown to possess nearly as much interest in training as Naruto and Sasuke were, and she lacked the natural advantages of a bijuu and the Sharingan. A sudden resolution to be of use was not going to cause any results when she did not have the training or physical ability to back it up. What is important here is that she decided that she didn't want to be a burden anymore.

During Sakura's preliminary match, we see Sakura put her headband on her forehead, which was her and Ino's code that she considered herself to be Ino's equal. While Ino is not a shinobi on the level of say, Naruto or Sasuke, Ino was the measuring stick that Sakura had set for herself. Here, Sakura says that she now wants to not only equal that measuring stick, but she wants to surpass it as well.

The next major thing we see Sakura do is stand against Gaara. Judging by the angle of her kunai, she wasn't standing there to fight Gaara. Sakura's posture looks like she's bracing the weapon, but she's not extending it from her body at all. The only way that Gaara would actually be hit by that kunai is if he was standing less than a foot in front of her, and since he's jumping, his momentum would mean that he would wind up hitting her as well if he hit her kunai. What this indicates is that Sakura was not being woefully ineffective with her weapon--it indicates that she wasn't even really trying to use it. Instead, she was using her body as a human shield. If Gaara hit Sakura, then he wouldn't hit Sasuke. In order for Sakura's kunai to do anything, then she would have to be hit. Therefore, in order for Sakura to be actually doing anything in this scene, she would have to be hit, voluntarily sacrificing herself for Sasuke's sake.

Looking at Sakura's face, she doesn't appear scared by this idea. She looks determined and angry. Compare her face during that action to her face in chapter 10, where she jumps in front of Tazuna to protect him from the Demon Brothers. She looks much more terrified and uncertain in the latter than in the former.

There was a definite development in Sakura during part 1, _while_ she still loved Sasuke. Her growth in physical power occurred over the timskip, yes, just like Sasuke's and Naruto's did. But her emotional growth was happening over the entirety of part 1. The little girl who said Naruto was lucky for being an orphan wouldn't have jumped in front of Sasuke the same way Sakura did in chapter 129; she might have jumped in front of him, possibly, but she wouldn't have been nearly as unafraid or determined as she was against Gaara. That change requires growth of Sakura's mind _in addition to_ the growth of Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.

It was not only Naruto's progression that caused this change in Sakura; he was not the only thing that made her "wake up" as you put it. In chapter 54, she comments that she wants to be like "you guys", referring to Sasuke and Lee as well as Naruto. She was inspired by the examples that all three of them provided for her, not just the example of Naruto alone. Don't get me wrong--I'm _not_ trying to deny that Naruto was inspirational for Sakura's growth, but he was not the only inspiration she had.

I do agree with you on one point of your comment, Tyrannos: Sakura's fangirling of Sasuke kept her from growing. But her actual fangirling of him didn't last. After she cuts her hair in chapter 54, we don't once see Sakura shove down someone else to talk to Sasuke (bottom left panel), or make thinly veiled requests for ill-timed dates. If you have examples of any behavior of Sakura's post-chapter 54 that are examples of her fangirling specifically over Sasuke, please provide them; I am human and my memory is not perfect, and it is possible that I might have missed some.

Sakura's growth was inspired by Naruto, by Lee, and by Ino, but a part of it was inspired by her love for Sasuke as well. She didn't develop only for him, but to deny that she developed at least in part because of him is equally foolish. The timeskip was not where Sakura's growth occurred. Sakura's growth occurred during all of part 1, _while_ she loved Sasuke. What the timeskip did was give her the physical ability to match the emotional development she had received onscreen. As she grew, her bonds with Team Seven did make her strong, but her love for Sasuke made her strong as well.


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## izzyisozaki (May 20, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> The timeskip was not where Sakura's growth occurred. Sakura's growth occurred during all of part 1, _while_ she loved Sasuke. What the timeskip did was give her the physical ability to match the emotional development she had received onscreen. As she grew, her bonds with Team Seven did make her strong, but her love for Sasuke made her strong as well.



The point is that Sakura's growth in Part 2 was purged by what Naruto did for her


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## Erendhyl (May 20, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> The point is that Sakura's growth in Part 2 was purged by what Naruto did for her



I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you mean by this. "Purged" would mean that what Naruto did for her cleansed her growth in part 2, which would imply that her growth would have been bad without what Naruto did for her. Am I reading this wrong, or if I am not can you please elaborate on what you mean?


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## Inuhanyou (May 20, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you mean by this. "Purged" would mean that what Naruto did for her cleansed her growth in part 2, which would imply that her growth would have been bad without what Naruto did for her. Am I reading this wrong, or if I am not can you please elaborate on what you mean?



Semantics....

Basically what we've been saying here is, Naruto was the one who out of anyone inspired Sakura to grow into what she is now, end of story. There have been others who have helped on the way, Lee, Ino, to some degree Sasuke and also Tsunade. But it would have been for naught had Naruto not been there is basically the point.


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## izzyisozaki (May 20, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you mean by this. "Purged" would mean that what Naruto did for her cleansed her growth in part 2, which would imply that her growth would have been bad without what Naruto did for her. Am I reading this wrong, or if I am not can you please elaborate on what you mean?



I'll use an example. Sakura goes to punch Sasuke at the reunion scene. WHAT does she flashback before? ...Saying to Naruto they'll save him together.

Together.

What had caused Sakura to take this decision?

It was Naruto. Cos he touched her heart.


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## Erendhyl (May 20, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> I'll use an example. Sakura goes to punch Sasuke at the reunion scene. WHAT does she flashback before? ...Saying to Naruto they'll save him together.
> 
> Together.
> 
> ...



Oh, I see what you are saying now, and I do agree with you. My post was not to challenge the idea that Naruto has lead to part of Sakura's growth, because he definitely has, and it is a rather large part; it was to say that being in love with Sasuke did not impede Sakura's growth. So I have no disagreement with you here, izzy. It was the word "purged" that had me confused, because it sounded to me like you were saying that if Naruto was not there then Sakura's growth would have been a bad thing that needed to be cleansed, which was definitely not the case.

*@Inuhanyou:* I disagree that Naruto is "the one out of anyone that inspired Sakura to grow into what she is", because as I stated in my response to Tyrannos, Sasuke, Lee, and Ino (and Tsunade, since you are right that she contributed as well) helped her grow too. While you acknowledge this in your comment as well, I disagree with the levels of importance that you are assigning to the other characters. Sasuke was the one who first inspired her to think outside of herself in chapter 3 as well as a source of inspiration held equal to Naruto (referring to the many times she has commented "I will protect both of them"); Ino was her measuring stick that marked the growth Sakura had during the earlier portions of the series; Lee was mentioned equally with Sasuke and Naruto during the scene where Sakura cut her hair, symbolically shedding her fangirl self; and Naruto is her source of inspiration as well as a precious person to protect.

Overall, I would say Naruto's influence on Sakura has been about equal to Sasuke's influence on her. Sasuke definitely had the larger influence during part 1, while Naruto had a smaller but still important influence; in part 2 Naruto has the larger influence, while Sasuke has a smaller but still important influence. Sakura still wants to protect both boys though, and growing strong enough to retrieve Sasuke along with Naruto is still one of her motives.

By this:





			
				Inuhanyou said:
			
		

> But it would have been for naught had Naruto not been there is basically the point.



did you mean that it would have been for naught because she would have lost hope in her ability to retrieve Sasuke? I couldn't really tell what you were trying to imply with this comment.


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## izzyisozaki (May 20, 2009)

@Erendhyl- I guess we'll simply have to disagree on what we feel is good for Sakura. I do NOT think Sasuke makes her grow or benefit by good standards on a romantic level - but on one of friendship.


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## Kage (May 20, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> *Overall, I would say Naruto's influence on Sakura has been about equal to Sasuke's influence on her. Sasuke definitely had the larger influence during part 1, while Naruto had a smaller but still important influence;* in part 2 Naruto has the larger influence, while Sasuke has a smaller but still important influence. Sakura still wants to protect both boys though, and growing strong enough to retrieve Sasuke along with Naruto is still one of her motives.



and that's the point people have been refuting 

i don't think anybody doubts that sasuke's had an influence on her but to claim it's equal or greater then naruto's in terms of her growth is pretty absurd.

there has been nothing throughout the duration of part I that shows sakura gaining strength or courage from sasuke *exclusively*. when she cut her hair 'getting rid of her fangirl self' she's thinking of/is driven by her desire to protect Lee sasuke and Naruto. 

i don't see what the Ino/sakura fight has to do with sasuke and his positive influence on her growth considering it was naruto's encouragement that prevented her from losing. she even admits to such herself.

overall i don't understand how you're trying to prove your point when you provide examples of sakura gaining motivation from everyone around her if this is suppose to be about sasuke's "larger" influence.


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## Rinoa (May 20, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Semantics....
> 
> Basically what we've been saying here is, Naruto was the one who out of anyone inspired Sakura to grow into what she is now, end of story. There have been others who have helped on the way, Lee, Ino, to some degree Sasuke and also Tsunade. But it would have been for naught had Naruto not been there is basically the point.


_I have to disagree the goal they share made Sakura taked the decision to become stronger and protect both Sasuke and Naruto next time, and also help him to bring Sasuke back, since Sakura decided to not be a burden, even Chiyo was a Sakura inspiration.
Sakura never mention Naruto as her inspiration but as someone she decided to protect as she decided the same about Sasuke.
Something that started during the CE when she cutted her hair and matured with the character development and events.
Naruto is part of that growth but is not the only or main inspiration of Sakura.
Naruto is someone who is part of her character development and growth when Sakura started to recognize him and sees him as one of her precious people.(Something she began to consider only after Sasuke called her attention about that.)
She can always learn from him but i don't think of him as her main inspiration.
But her own decision and will.
_


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## Erendhyl (May 20, 2009)

kageneko said:


> and that's the point people have been refuting
> 
> i don't think anybody doubts that sasuke's had an influence on her but to claim it's equal or greater then naruto's in terms of her growth is pretty absurd.
> 
> there has been nothing throughout the duration of part I that shows sakura gaining strength or courage from sasuke *exclusively*. when she cut her hair 'getting rid of her fangirl self' she's thinking of/is driven by her desire to protect Lee sasuke and Naruto.



And I was not trying to say that she gained courage from Sasuke. I was trying to say that she _matured_ because of Sasuke. Is it not maturing for Sakura to think about how Naruto feels in chapter 3, where earlier in that chapter she had said he was lucky to be an orphan, clearly showing that she had not thought about how he feels at all? Is it not maturing for Sakura to be willing to show her own emotions and cry over the death of a comrade, even if doing so means breaking the rules? Is it not maturing that she was able to face Gaara without fear or hesitation in order to protect a precious comrade, where the same action during the Land of Waves arc had showed Sakura to be full of fear? That was what I was trying to show in my post.



> i don't see what the Ino/sakura fight has to do with sasuke and his positive influence on her growth considering it was naruto's encouragement that prevented her from losing. she even admits to such herself.
> 
> overall i don't understand how you're trying to prove your point when you provide examples of sakura gaining motivation from everyone around her if this is suppose to be about sasuke's "larger" influence.



These points in my original counter to Tyrannos were not _supposed_ to show _Sasuke's_ influence on Sakura. They were supposed to show that the fact that even though Sakura had feelings for Sasuke at the time, her feelings did nothing to impede her growth during those moments, and to show that Sakura did grow during part 1 _before_ Sasuke left.

*@izzy:* Alright, we can agree to disagree.


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## Inuhanyou (May 20, 2009)

sharingansasu said:


> _I have to disagree the goal they share made Sakura taked the decision to become stronger and protect both Sasuke and Naruto next time, and also help him to bring Sasuke back, since Sakura decided to not be a burden, even Chiyo was a Sakura inspiration.
> Sakura never mention Naruto as her inspiration but as someone she decided to protect as she decided the same about Sasuke.
> Something that started during the CE when she cutted her hair and matured with the character development and events.
> Naruto is part of that growth but is not the only or main inspiration of Sakura.
> ...




And i have no problems with you thinking that way...but we'll have to agree to disagree, as i personally believe the exact  opposite of Sasuke being a positive influence on Sakura in part 1 in almost any shape or form.

Sakura implies at the end of part 1 of Naruto to have been one of the few who understood her. I doubt someone with the role you seem to have Naruto placed in as Sakura's "friend who contributes an ok amount of stuff for Sakura's development but not as much as Sasuke" would be that person instead of Sasuke who she confirmed herself to have hardly talked to due to him being a brick wall around her.


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## Hikui (May 20, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Ah, I misunderstood the question.  To me follow up is a future referance to the event and building on it.
> Let me ask this question: why hasn't Kishi-sensei resolved those NaruSaku moments?  The fact that he's made so many lose ends between the two of them indicates that their relationship is very important to the plot.  You said that if he doesn't follow up on NaruHina, it will be bad writing.  But wouldn't the same be true if he didn't do that for NaruSaku?



I agree, sort of. Those loose ends haven't been addressed at all, after what? 100 chapters? That's a lot for a main recurring character. And by adressed I don't mean a romantic resolution/realization, just a mention would be fine. I mean she can suddenly get all the flashbacks and tie up everything into the conclusion that she loves Naruto but I don't think that could turn well. As for the NaruSaku "follow up", it wouldn't be needed if all those instances were platonic in nature. Although, even so, I would like closure about that too, but that's asking for too much. 



Forlong said:


> You have yet to proove that.  Saying he's asking her on dates out of habit makes him sound like a stupid child.  He doesn't exactly get a lot of free time to plan proper dates.


I guess I have. It's interpretation, just like the majority of the arguments in this thread. 



Forlong said:


> And if she cares for Naruto more than the guy she said "I love you" to, you can't blaim my logic.


I guess, but the instance on which you base this statement is ambiguous. If a friend of mine is self-destructing for something he promised to do for me while I do nothing, I would stop him too. And it doesn't need to be romantic. That's Sakura's part of course, we can't lose sight that Naruto wants Sasuke back for himself....probably more.  



Forlong said:


> You'll be sadly disappointed.  I don't think a teammate romance will imbalance the team.  Some NaruSaku moments become Team 7 moments.  Naruto and Sakura's relationship strengthens their entire team.


Exactly, and it doesn't need to be romantic. Kishimoto needed to place emphasis on their relationship in Part II because in Part I was almost non-existent until the end. IF he wanted a balanced team 7, it had to be done. 



Forlong said:


> As they only interacted once in part 2, we can't be to sure.


I guess.




Forlong said:


> He wants to do Hinata's character justice.


Of course, but to single her out of most of the rookies is in fact a lot. 




Forlong said:


> No pairing will be happening any time soon.  The manga still has a good two years of life left in it.  Plenty of time for Kishi-sensei to resolve romantic sub-plots.


It's not a matter of years, but a matter of chapters. There are more pressing matters than romantic sub-plots for 100 chapters or so. 



izzyisozaki said:


> Wow I didn't have this impression at all


I guess. For a secondary character, I think she gets more than usual. I'm not saying he loves her and is his favorite, just that he most likely likes her. The confession for one could have been crap. 

Lolz, I'll be back soon. I'm having fun.


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## Kage (May 20, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> And I was not trying to say that she gained courage from Sasuke. I was trying to say that she _matured_ because of Sasuke.


i see. i misunderstood then. however...



> Is it not maturing for Sakura to think about how Naruto feels in chapter 3, where earlier in that chapter she had said he was lucky to be an orphan, clearly showing that she had not thought about how he feels at all?


she begins to consider it yes but doesn't act on it until naruto _proves himself_ to her. this is not sasuke's merit for points in her maturity in the grand scheme of things.



> Is it not maturing for Sakura to be willing to show her own emotions and cry over the death of a comrade, even if doing so means breaking the rules?


i might have thought so if i didn't take in her major crush and the fact that sakura is a very emotional person overall into consideration. i recall during the bell test she warned naruto when kakashi was behind him forming a tiger seal. up until that point she was following the basics of a ninja to a tee by hiding herself well. by shouting to naruto she gave away her position. i don't chalk that up to maturity. in this case it's the same principle. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



oh and if she were nearly as keen or meticulous about following the shinobi rules as say a young kakashi was then i would have conceded to your point






> Is it not maturing that she was able to face Gaara without fear or hesitation in order to protect a precious comrade, where the same action during the Land of Waves arc had showed Sakura to be full of fear? That was what I was trying to show in my post.


she had an opportunity to protect someone precious not long after she vowed she would try harder to do so. yes that's maturing but again i'm not seeing how this comes back to _mainly because of sasuke._ or rather despite her feelings for him because any instance in which sakura is thinking of someone _other_ then herself is a sign of maturity.



> These points in my original counter to Tyrannos were not _supposed_ to show _Sasuke's_ influence on Sakura. They were supposed to show that the fact that even though Sakura had feelings for Sasuke at the time, her feelings did nothing to impede her growth during those moments, and to show that Sakura did grow during part 1 _before_ Sasuke left.


because her feelings for sasuke had nothing if very little to do with those points.
look at whats happens when she stops thinking about just him or her romantic feelings for him. she actually applies herself 

and this somehow makes sasuke's _positive_ influence on her and her maturity _larger?_

case in point what happens _after_ the sakura/ino fight. she worries herself sick over his curse seal/eventual coma later on and concerns herself with nothing else. least of all her _growth._


----------



## Rinoa (May 20, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> And i have no problems with you thinking that way...but we'll have to agree to disagree, as i personally believe the exact  opposite of Sasuke being a positive influence on Sakura in part 1 in almost any shape or form.
> 
> Sakura implies at the end of part 1 of Naruto to have been one of the few who understood her. I doubt someone with the role you seem to have Naruto placed in as Sakura's "friend who contributes an ok amount of stuff for Sakura's development but not as much as Sasuke" would be that person instead of Sasuke who she confirmed herself to have hardly talked to due to him being a brick wall around her.


I respect your point of view but even Sasuke creating a wall against bonds the true is that he started to create bonds with Team7.
During the part1?Yes, i think he was a positive influence, she decided to treat Naruto better after Sasuke called her the very same word she called before in the classroom to Naruto, she shared her food with Naruto only after Sasuke and that made them pass the Bells test, Sasuke told her to go training more, Sasuke told her how she was the best in genjutsus of Team7...
Sasuke helped Sakura to develop during Part1 even if in his way and criticism.
Naruto during Part1 was divided between fanboy and his rivalry/starting friendship with Sasuke.
During the part2  her decision is her main strenght, inspirations:Tsunade, Chiyo, Naruto and Sasuke... Sasuke is one of the reasons to Sakura desire to become more stronger and even after the reunion she decided to learn more about forbidden jutsus and drugs only because she found strange Sasuke's level, that shows that even if Sasuke is far away like Naruto she also decided to become stronger to bring him back and she still want to protect him, this will is a huge part of her motivations to grow.

This was Sakura mention about Naruto understood her during part1:
here
here
It was about her feelings.

And i'm sure they understand the Sasuke's loss that both share.


----------



## Forlong (May 20, 2009)

sharingansasu said:


> _Sakura never mention Naruto as her inspiration but as someone she decided to protect as she decided the same about Sasuke._


Ah, but she did. *dramatic reverb*



Hikui said:


> I agree, sort of. Those loose ends haven't been addressed at all, after what? 100 chapters? That's a lot for a main recurring character. And by adressed I don't mean a romantic resolution/realization, just a mention would be fine. I mean she can suddenly get all the flashbacks and tie up everything into the conclusion that she loves Naruto but I don't think that could turn well. As for the NaruSaku "follow up", it wouldn't be needed if all those instances were platonic in nature. Although, even so, I would like closure about that too, but that's asking for too much.


Well they haven't been interacting much in those 100 chapters.  And Kishi-sensei is going to drag this out as long as he can.  It's so annoying.


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## Erendhyl (May 20, 2009)

kageneko said:


> she begins to consider it yes but doesn't act on it until naruto _proves himself_ to her. this is not sasuke's merit for points in her maturity in the grand scheme of things.



She didn't act on it until Naruto proved himself to her, but the fact that she was even thinking about it was an improvement from where she was earlier in the chapter. It's not a huge deal, but this was the first sign of growth that we see in Sakura, and this was caused by Sasuke.



> i might have thought so if i didn't take in her major crush and the fact that sakura is a very emotional person overall into consideration. i recall during the bell test she warned naruto when kakashi was behind him forming a tiger seal. up until that point she was following the basics of a ninja to a tee by hiding herself well. by shouting to naruto she gave away her position. i don't chalk that up to maturity. in this case it's the same principle.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



She is an emotional person in general, but she also drew attention to the fact that she was breaking one of the shinobi rules there by even mentioning the rule in the first place. She didn't do that when she warned Naruto. That incident was more of a spur-of-the-moment thing, since she had to speak pretty much immediately after noticing if she didn't want Naruto to be killed. With Sasuke however, she actually paused from shock and mentioned the rule before she actually started crying, making it seem like a far more intentional action on her part.



> she had an opportunity to protect someone precious not long after she vowed she would try harder to do so. yes that's maturing but again i'm not seeing how this comes back to _mainly because of sasuke._ or rather despite her feelings for him because any instance in which sakura is thinking of someone _other_ then herself is a sign of maturity.



This isn't an example of her maturing "despite her feelings for him", since I think we can both agree that the fact that she had at least some kind of feelings for Sasuke played a huge part in her willingness to sacrifice herself. Instead, I was more using it as an example that Sakura herself matured at the same time as her feelings for Sasuke matured. If she still had the same fangirlish love for him that she had at the beginning of the series, then I highly doubt that Sakura would have cared enough to sacrifice her life for Sasuke. But here, we see that she cares enough for him to sacrifice her life to save his, and that she had grown in maturity of how she faces these kinds of situations.

It is possible for her to have saved Sasuke because she cares for him as a teammate, without her romantic feelings for him coming into play. However, as her feelings for Sasuke were introduced in chapter 3, and she confessed her love for him in 181, and this event (chapter 129) occurred between the two chapters, then I assume that her romantic feelings for him were present and played a part in her actions, as I sincerely doubt that Kishimoto is going to have her fall in and out of love with Sasuke over the course of just part 1.



> because her feelings for sasuke had nothing if very little to do with those points.
> look at whats happens when she stops thinking about just him or her romantic feelings for him. she actually applies herself



I could say the same thing about Naruto's feelings for Sakura. (I know that you yourself ship SasuNaru, but NaruSaku is the opposing pairing in this debate.) When Naruto doesn't think about his feelings for Sakura, he actually applies himself.

*I am not making that as a serious argument against the pairing, so please no one quote it and argue it. I am using it as an example.*

The point is, just because the major accomplishments of a character don't occur while they're thinking of their love interest, it doesn't mean that when they are thinking about their love interest they are unable to accomplish things. Some things, love interests really aren't relevant to. When Sakura is reflecting back on how Ino helped her out as a child, Sasuke really isn't relevant to that. Ino is. Likewise, when Naruto is battling Pain, the man who killed his sensei, Sakura really isn't relevant to that. Jiraiya is.



> case in point what happens _after_ the sakura/ino fight. she worries herself sick over his curse seal/eventual coma later on and concerns herself with nothing else. least of all her _growth._



How is it a bad thing for her to care for him when he receives a seal that she knows is bad for him, or when he winds up in a coma that no one in the hospital is able to do anything about? If she claimed to care about him but wasn't affected by those things, I would be seriously worried about her.

In the manga though, Sakura wasn't really getting a very good chance to do anything. Her sensei was busy training Sasuke after the preliminaries, and in a coma after Itachi came and Tsunade wasn't in Konoha yet, so there wasn't anyone to train her. She wasn't getting a lot of focus either. After her fight with Ino, we pretty much see the other matches, Naruto's training with Jiraiya, then the Third Exam that Sakura can't participate in, then the invasion where she stands up against Gaara, then Itachi invades and we focus on Sasuke, slightly on Kakashi, and on Naruto and Jiraiya's journey to find Tsunade, then Sasuke gets put in a coma. Here, we see Sakura once, for about a page, in an appearance that really seems more dedicated to the fact that Sasuke is still not waking up, and to give us some basis for Tsunade's observation that she comes every day. We're not told anything else about what she was doing during that month or so, because Sakura's story was not the focus there. Naruto's was. (I'm not claiming "it happened off-panel"; I'm just stating that we don't know what she _was_ doing during that month.)


----------



## Rinoa (May 20, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Ah, but she did. *dramatic reverb*


Because of this so became something positive.
To be worse than Naruto it was something almost unacceptable.
Start to acknowledge Naruto is part of Sakura's development as a character and during part1 always had ups and downs.
She recognized Naruto was getting stronger and she was kind of jealous of him.	
I would call it healthy competition more than inspiration at that time.


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## JERITROLL (May 20, 2009)

sharingansasu said:


> Because of this so became something positive.
> To be worse than Naruto it was something almost unacceptable.
> Start to recognize Naruto is part of Sakura's development and during part1 always had ups and downs.
> She recognized Naruto was getting stronger and she was kind of jealous of him.
> I would call it healthy competition more than inspiration at that time.



While such may be true, it is highlighted by negative implications. In other words, she saw it as wrong for Naruto to be better than her. That's Ego-stroking, and more importantly, Sakura didn't really get much stronger until much later in the series. After the Naruto vs. Gaara fight, and mostly after Sasuke Retrieval, (which had PoaL as a huge factor behind it, despite what many want to believe*). It seemed to me that it took Naruto's determination to drive her to make her decision, which was becoming Tsunade's student. Sasuke himself had nothing to do with it that time around, the only thing he did was leave.


*On the PoaL and Sasuke Retrieval

Now, to elaborate on why I say that. There's no doubt in my mind that Naruto went after Sasuke because he was his best friend. That's a given, but during that first battle, the inital thoughts and the constant stream of flashbacks kept going towards PoaL. The reason we don't see much more of it in Part II is because of that battle. Naruto saw what was really going on, and once he learned about the time crunch, was detirmined to save his friend. The focus changed because the promise was no longer the priority. Saving Sasuke's life was now #1 (remember, prior to Jiraiya's discussion, Naruto didn't know anything about Orochimaru wanting Sasuke's body.)

That's how I see it, anyways....


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## Rinoa (May 21, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> While such may be true, it is highlighted by negative implications. In other words, she saw it as wrong for Naruto to be better than her. It seemed to me that it took Naruto's determination to drive her to make her decision, which was becoming Tsunade's student. Sasuke himself had nothing to do with it that time around, the only thing he did was leave.



Not in a negative way it was a first step to her recognize Naruto and to her growth.
And it wasn't in a rivalry way but character development(Team7 bond development,too)
I don't think it is something negative in manga the desire to be as strong as your teammate has always been present in a positive way.	

The departure of Sasuke was the beginning of the goal that Naruto and Sakura share and a huge part of their determination to become stronger.
No doubts Naruto will try to save Sasuke without the promisse. 
Her decision to become stronger is to not be a burden and next time protect both, Naruto and Sasuke and help Naruto to bring him back.
None of both will give up on Sasuke, thats why i mention her determination to learn more about forbidden jutsus and drugs right after they met Sasuke again.
Sasuke is one of her determinations to grow.
They are trying to do this together because Sasuke is a precious person to both of them during all these years.


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## Kaekoro (May 21, 2009)

SasuSaku makes almost no sense to me personally, why would Sasuke choose Sakura? They have been apart for years now and he has a new fan girl, Karin, who worships him. I think that their friendship could be salvaged, it makes no sense for it to go from an obession Sakura had, to a mutual relationship after so being separated for so long.

NaruSaku/NaruHina are both credible in my eyes and I am mixed on them. I personally love both, but I feel Kishimoto caved in to NaruHina because of the rabid fanbase for it. I don't think NaruHina is certain per se, especially because NaruSaku has been extensively hinted IMO for most of Part II, so a pro-Hinata tilt means nothing until Naruto chooses one of them. Personally, I'd prefer a light love triangle because hearing how every girl wants to bang Sasuke gets really, really old. Naruto deserves to be fawned over.


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## Temp_Position (May 21, 2009)

A new love triangle? I like the idea. So instead of Naru--->Saku--->Sasu---> (lol) , it would be 

Hina--->Naru--->Saku-->(lol) It could work. There is about 10% more development on NaruSaku and NaruHina than SasuSaku. Sasuke is a mystery when it comes to romance. 

I still believe that Kishimoto put the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



love confession


from Hinata's side to show a growth in her character, not to pair her up. Sakura confesses to Sasuke (constantly), and it didnt go anywhere. There is no telling if Naruto would respond positively towards Hinata, since he's so hung over Sakura and his goals, etc. It doesnt mean that after all his stress is over he wont consider dating her. If Sakura goes out with Sasuke, he might, so there is a possibility. Naruto doesnt like to give up on people, but he likes to be fair. Once she is taken and there is no hope for him, than he would move on. 

Even if Naruto likes Sakura a lot, there is also no telling if she would respond positively towards him since she is still hung over Sasuke. No matter how much development there bond has, it would look bad on her part if she just GAVE UP on Sasuke for Naruto. How would the "Never give up on people" moral of the manga fit in this situation? Naruto might not like her anymore if she does that, since he likes her because she likes Sasuke.

Sasuke on the other hand....well, he doesnt seem to have one romantic bone in his body for Sakura. He is very goal oriented and its hard to tell what he is thinking. But, since he likes to do things on a whim, maybe SasuSaku might work if he decided to go out with her. He might also gets married to her on a "whim" and live happily ever after on a "whim." Then he might get bored and leave on a "whim." But, just because he sucks in romance and commitment, doesnt mean he cant get paired up with her. I personally dont like SasuSaku, because I think any girl would like to marry a guy who loves them and not only on a whim or whatever, but its not impossible. Unromantic stuff like that happens in real life too. 

So, in the end, with the right character development I think NaruHina and SasuSaku could happen without dis obeying any morals in the manga.


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## izzyisozaki (May 21, 2009)

Temp_Position said:
			
		

> So, in the end, with the right character development I think NaruHina and SasuSaku could happen without dis obeying any morals in the manga.



That's a very strange sense of morals in this manga you got there.

SasuSaku doesn't have the development to make any sort "omg" scene if Sakura gave up on Sasuke. He's been utterly rejecting her for the entire manga and she was still a 12 year old with major temperament problems. I don't see how Sakura giving up on getting into Sasuke's pants for Naruto is an objection to any morals where it's friggen common sense to get with a guy that treats you better.


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## Temp_Position (May 21, 2009)

izzyisozaki said:


> That's a very strange sense of morals in this manga you got there.
> 
> SasuSaku doesn't have the development to make any sort "omg" scene if Sakura gave up on Sasuke. He's been utterly rejecting her for the entire manga and she was still a 12 year old with major temperament problems. I don't see how Sakura giving up on getting into Sasuke's pants for Naruto is an objection to any morals where it's friggen common sense to get with a guy that treats you better.



Thats true. But, if Sakura and Hinata were trying to get there men like they try to get there dream jobs, it might make sense. Maybe the author is trying to say that if you try hard, you can force people to love you; just like how if you try hard enough you can be anything you want to be. 

Maybe Kishimoto wants his " never give up" on anyone or anything moral to be applicable to ALL things. Even if it goes against your respect for yourself as a human being. 

And, it wouldnt matter if they either treat you like $h!t or if they dont even know you exist, you can still get them if you "work hard." Hard work pays off, even when it comes to love. mutual attraction is irrelevant. believe it!

I think Kishi is saying that Sakura should "take the abuse" and Hinata should " continue to stalk a guy who doesnt even acknowledge her existence." I mean, even if it is common sense, these girls have no other life but to be with two guys who dont even like them. Screw self respect. 

Now, doesnt that sound like true luv?


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## izzyisozaki (May 21, 2009)

^_hard work_ in onesided romance 99% of the time doesn't pay off.

cos 99% of the time the love is unjustified and/or abusive.

pretty disgusting moral imo


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## Temp_Position (May 21, 2009)

^ I totally agree. If Kishimoto sensei lets that happen...I hate to think what he is teaching people about love. We would have a lot of people in abusive and onesided relationships.


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## Forlong (May 21, 2009)

sharingansasu said:


> I would call it healthy competition more than inspiration at that time.



I'd call that inspiration.  But I guess that's a matter of oppinion.


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## Inuhanyou (May 21, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> ^ I totally agree. If Kishimoto sensei lets that happen...I hate to think what he is teaching people about love. We would have a lot of people in abusive and onesided relationships.



Ironic considering that's the exact thing you were advocating just a few posts upward


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## Temp_Position (May 21, 2009)

^ yup! I was fighting on the side of NaruHina and SasuSaku. Those are my reasons on why they could possibly happen.


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## Tyrannos (May 21, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> First off, I _do not think_ that Sakura's part one world revolved all around Sasuke. I am a huge fan of Sakura's character, and I find the idea that her character revolved entirely around a boy for a solid 238 chapters to be an insult to the development that she did have. However, I disagree with your idea that her crush on Sasuke held her back. I agree that it did so in the beginning, but Sakura's development throughout part one was _not_ impeded by her love of Sasuke.



Well I would answer, but seems the others summed it up nicely.  

But I also thought this little excerpt from Sakura's DB3 Profile fits as well:



> [Naruto]
> In her childhood, Sasuke was the object of her yearning, then loving feelings. Naruto was just the nuisance that would force itself between Sasuke and her, and ruin the day in some fashion. But looking back on the past after a few missions handled together, Sakura suddenly realized. In her painful moments, when she'd abandoned even the will to live, the one who'd protect her and encourage her was Naruto, the supposedly annoying one... What feelings does she harbor towards Naruto?... As of now, Sakura hasn't found the answer.


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## mystic868 (May 21, 2009)

Temp_Position said:


> ^ I totally agree. If Kishimoto sensei lets that happen...I hate to think what he is teaching people about love. We would have a lot of people in abusive and onesided relationships.



Well maybe he will pair Naruto with Hinata for some time, then with Sakura for some time and at the end with Sasuke so there will be no "people rejection" and fans of all 3 pairings will be happy


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## Hikui (May 21, 2009)

I'm so behind  (Stupid computer). 

*rewrites*



Tyrannos said:


> You don't understand, that's all what people see in Sakura during Part 1. That her world revolved solely around Sasuke, and not Team 7 as a whole. That's what Kishimoto said Part 1 was about, them building their bonds.
> 
> Sakura's fangirling for Sasuke is what prevented her from growing. But yet when she saw Naruto's progression, she had to sit back and reflect. Eventually they got so far ahead that she got discouraged, until Naruto and Sasuke's lives depended on it. That's when she began to wake up.
> 
> ...



Did you read my post? That's exactly what I said. I said her timeline was Sasuke centered (as in most of the panels she appeared regarded Sasuke) not that her development was all thanks to Sasuke. I was simply countering your own argument that most of her development regarded Naruto by saying Sasuke also "helped". If I wasn't clear enough (although I think I was), her character revolved around Sasuke, not her development, at least not all.

In the end I agree. Both Naruto and Sasuke were pivotal to her development, Team 7 as a whole. Of course Sakura, herself, has also credit. 




Tyrannos said:


> See, there you go with your bias again. "Feeling tru lub"? The focusing on the "lies".
> 
> Was there any significance to those lies? NO! So drop it!
> 
> The only lie that had any relevance to the story was when Yamato told Naruto that Sakura lied for his own sake. But yet out of that lie, Naruto vowed to never use the Kyuubi again. And guess what? Naruto hasn't purposely used the Kyuubi since.



Fine, fine. I'll drop it. It wasn't significant, happy?



Tyrannos said:


> As for Chapter 343, all you see is "it's about Sasuke"! Well look again!
> 
> Naruto is trying to eat his ramen and Sakura looks at his bandaged arm, then she immedately recalls the moment where she's healing it. She's scolding him, and Naruto's being chipper self. And when Naruto says, "It feels like we are getting closer to Sasuke", she is in shock.
> 
> ...



I can see the romantic "innuendo" in the scene (Sakura moving the stool closer, etc.) but I just fail to see the romantic motivations, hence I don't consider it powerfully romantic. 

So they're in the hospital scene and she's shocked when Naruto says "it seems we're getting closer to Sasuke" and she's shocked.....okay. So now that means she's in love with him? I'm not trying to mock you here, I want to understand what you see because I don't understand how her being shocked means her motivations are romantic. Is she shocked because she was thinking about Naruto when he mentioned Sasuke, or what? I don't get it. 

As I see it, she was shocked because Naruto technically told her "she was doing her part". See the "WE"? Sakura has always felt bad about that, and then she does something nice for Naruto for a change, that she knows will make him happy when he is in need. Is this something so wrong to believe?




Tyrannos said:


> Well not my fault you don't see the simple comparison of Hinata telling us that she liked Naruto because they were both alienated. And contrasts where Naruto fought against it, she didn't.


I'll give up on debating this with you. 




Tyrannos said:


> My God! You are really being absurd now! All in order to protect Hinata's character, you start throwing out terms and stating every character's a foil.
> 
> Instead of reading terms online, I suggest you take a literature course in college.



Why am I being absurd? I'm not saying all characters are foils, only that I can twist my arguments into a good comparison and state they're foil. People love to do this in this thread. How I see it characters serve different purposes in a story but that doesn't necessarily means you can diminish most characters in to one-dimensional archetypes. Honestly, THAT is my point. It would be stupid if I were to settle that Sasuke is only a foil and Sakura a romantic interest for example. So if Hinata can act as a foil, it doesn't mean that is her whole purpose in the story, is it so hard to understand?

And of course I would love to take a literature course, but I'm not in college yet. That said, I can honestly say I'm quite versed in the department and been in all sorts of debates for too long. 




Tyrannos said:


> Okay, then show me these obstacles.
> 
> No opinions, show me definitive proof.


I had just mentioned some of them. I will do it later if I have time. Okay?



Tyrannos said:


> Seems you're blaming Kishimoto for screwing up NaruHina.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Blaming Kishimoto for screwing up Naruhina?  Not at all, I think you're taking out of context. I was referring that the way Hinata's confession was settled made NaruSaku more complicated, and that there were easy ways to discard Hinata's love for Naruto and get her out of the way. BUT that didn't happen. I am actually grateful with the way he placed it, it was very well done for someone who is bad at romance. I wouldn't change it. And of course Naruto isn't going to reciprocate her feelings right away, who said he was?  







Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: _As for NS_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



By emphasis I mean Naruto and Sakura stop to dwell on their relationship, lots of reflections on Sakura's part and an explanation on how she got over Sasuke for example. It was never clear in the story, so it has to be regarded. By emphasis I mean regard all the loose ends NaruSaku has and a confession. And that when they become canon, considering they're both leads that would mean that their relationship will be in the forefront. That's emphasis, if Sakura confesses to Naruto in the next chapter and Naruto says yes adn that's it, then it would be horribly done. 
Everyone says that Hinata has to get over Naruto, move on and mature? That Sakura got over Sasuke and moved on? but why can't Naruto be the one to move on and mature? I agree that the story is about Naruto, and it is this very fact that makes me want Naruto to get past his first crush. But that is personal opinion. 







Tyrannos said:


> So romance picks up where it left off, even after Sasuke tried to kill them and avoided. Yeah, I see that happening.
> 
> I honestly see Kishimoto doing the old love triangle cliche resolution.



By where they left, I meant Sakura will still love Sasuke and care about him, not that they'll start a romantic relationship. Have you read any of my posts? I'm not going to debate SasuSaku, actually. As I see it, the only way it will work will be no resolution in the end, and a time skip. If SasuSaku happens it would be like something extra, not something I think will happen or want to happen for the matter. I like the pairing, but it's different. 



Tyrannos said:


> He has a soft spot for Hinata? And what proof do you have?
> 
> The only secondary character that Kishimoto has a fondness for is Shikamaru. Whom was even in the Naruto pilot.
> 
> ...



I have no proof, but it seems to me that he treats her too well for not being Shikamaru, and being secondary. Because we know she's fodder. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



He gives her one hell of a confession; people can bitch all they want on whether they like it or not but it is supposed to be awesome. And he draws her the prettiest I've seen of him (we know Kishimoto is not that good with females). 

About Sakura. I never saw her reflecting. And about the upset expression, we'll have to see I guess, unless Kishimoto never addresses it again. Ps: If Sakura has to realize she loves Naruto because of Hinata's confession it would be the lamest thing ever.  (I don't mean to be offensive). She is smart enough to figure her own feelings. 






Forlong said:


> Well they haven't been interacting much in those 100 chapters.  And Kishi-sensei is going to drag this out as long as he can.  It's so annoying.


If that's what you think, go ahead. And it is annoying.

That was late.


----------



## Kage (May 21, 2009)

Erendhyl said:


> She didn't act on it until Naruto proved himself to her, but the fact that she was even thinking about it was an improvement from where she was earlier in the chapter. It's not a huge deal, but this was the first sign of growth that we see in Sakura, and this was caused by Sasuke.


and you don't think she would have bothered trying at all if sasuke didn't yell at her first? sorry but i don't buy that. with or without sasuke's chastising naruto proved himself. any positive opinion she had of him was one he earned not one he earned because sasuke gave her the push to _at least_ consider it. i don't see her reflecting on sasuke's words every time she has to think about being nice to naruto do you? 



> She is an emotional person in general, but she also drew attention to the fact that she was breaking one of the shinobi rules there by even mentioning the rule in the first place. She didn't do that when she warned Naruto. That incident was more of a spur-of-the-moment thing, since she had to speak pretty much immediately after noticing if she didn't want Naruto to be killed. With Sasuke however, she actually paused from shock and mentioned the rule before she actually started crying, making it seem like a far more intentional action on her part.


so not acting like a ninja's suppose to is not breaking the shinobi rules? she gave away her position when she was suppose to stay well hidden to have an advantage. she should have recited the rule first? she let her emotions get the best of her and had the situation been serious would have got them _both_ killed.  my point is sakura is _not_ a model shinobi despite all her book smarts on it. so when she breaks a rule that unsurprisingly she has memorized it's not one big step in the road to her growing maturity least of all because of sasuke. 

she got emotional because she thought her crush was dead, knew she shouldn't cry cause that's not what good ninja's do but did it anyway. she was playing the part of the kind of shinobi she was which at the time was not exactly adequate. you act as if sakura were zabuza.

let's not forget how far that moment of "maturity" takes her. as soon as sasuke wakes up having been so certain he was dead moments before she immediately gushes about how he must have avoided getting his vitals hit and proceeds to tell him she had faith in him all along. yes. mature indeed.




> This isn't an example of her maturing "despite her feelings for him", since I think we can both agree that the fact that she had at least some kind of feelings for Sasuke played a huge part in her willingness to sacrifice herself. Instead, I was more using it as an example that Sakura herself matured at the same time as her feelings for Sasuke matured. If she still had the same fangirlish love for him that she had at the beginning of the series, then I highly doubt that Sakura would have cared enough to sacrifice her life for Sasuke. But here, we see that she cares enough for him to sacrifice her life to save his, and that she had grown in maturity of how she faces these kinds of situations.


...i _really_ don't understand why you have to connect _every single thing _she does in terms of her growth as a character to her feelings for sasuke. sakura was growing as a character and it had absolutely *very little to do with her feelings for sasuke* she wanted to be useful. she wanted to be depended on. this wasn't _just_ about her feelings for him let alone signs of  _maturing_ feelings for him. if her feelings for him matured at all she wouldn't have responded to half the crap he gave her by crying and being _docile._

attributing her merits as a shinobi to her feelings for sasuke is far-fetched not to mention a desperate attempt to validate what started out and pretty much remained a shallow, baseless, counterproductive crush. the ultimatum she gave him during her confession of _stay or take me with you_ pretty much confirms that for me.

don't get me wrong i'm not saying she never genuinely cared only that her feelings didn't grow much from where they originally started. which was wanting to be with him no matter what despite not understanding much about him.



> It is possible for her to have saved Sasuke because she cares for him as a teammate, without her romantic feelings for him coming into play. However, as her feelings for Sasuke were introduced in chapter 3, and she confessed her love for him in 181, and this event (chapter 129) occurred between the two chapters, then I assume that her romantic feelings for him were present and played a part in her actions, as I sincerely doubt that Kishimoto is going to have her fall in and out of love with Sasuke over the course of just part 1.



possible? of course. even if it's quite far-fetched to assume otherwise! sakura's character was all about sasuke pre-time skip so naturally was the motivation behind every one of her actions! sorry bout the sarcasm but really... 

you are free to assume such of course but i'd like to think that kishi was thinking about a _little more_ then making sure sakura's romantic feelings for him stayed consistent. lord knows how important they were to sasuke in the long run.



> I could say the same thing about Naruto's feelings for Sakura. (I know that you yourself ship SasuNaru, but NaruSaku is the opposing pairing in this debate.) When Naruto doesn't think about his feelings for Sakura, he actually applies himself.
> 
> *I am not making that as a serious argument against the pairing, so please no one quote it and argue it. I am using it as an example.*


you want to compare when naruto applies himself and why to when sakura does and expect me not to quote and argue against this? i guess the whole "I will protect sakura-chan no matter what" during the gaara fight was a perfect example of him not applying himself while thinking of his feelings for her 



> The point is, just because the major accomplishments of a character don't occur while they're thinking of their love interest, it doesn't mean that when they are thinking about their love interest they are unable to accomplish things. *Some things, love interests really aren't relevant to.*



this is my point and i don't think it's fair to pick and choose what's relevant to a love interest, when convenient mind you, when a character is accomplishing something on their _own._



> How is it a bad thing for her to care for him when he receives a seal that she knows is bad for him, or when he winds up in a coma that no one in the hospital is able to do anything about? If she claimed to care about him but wasn't affected by those things, I would be seriously worried about her.


being worried about him isn't the problem. having it put a huge damper in her progress is. if naruto handled his worry for sasuke the way she did he would have never learned the rasengan. sakura never trained despite her worries _because_ she was too preoccupied with being worried. i don't see how that's a good thing.



> In the manga though, Sakura wasn't really getting a very good chance to do anything. Her sensei was busy training Sasuke after the preliminaries, and in a coma after Itachi came and Tsunade wasn't in Konoha yet, so there wasn't anyone to train her. She wasn't getting a lot of focus either. After her fight with Ino, we pretty much see the other matches, Naruto's training with Jiraiya, then the Third Exam that Sakura can't participate in, then the invasion where she stands up against Gaara, then Itachi invades and we focus on Sasuke, slightly on Kakashi, and on Naruto and Jiraiya's journey to find Tsunade, then Sasuke gets put in a coma. Here, we see Sakura once, for about a page, in an appearance that really seems more dedicated to the fact that Sasuke is still not waking up, and to give us some basis for Tsunade's observation that she comes every day. We're not told anything else about what she was doing during that month or so, because Sakura's story was not the focus there. Naruto's was. (I'm not claiming "it happened off-panel"; I'm just stating that we don't know what she _was_ doing during that month.)


excuses for her incompetence don't impress me. she isn't the main character of this story but she _is_ a main character and her deciding to _really_ do something about her training _after_ sasuke left is no coincidence.


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## Temp_Position (May 21, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> Well maybe he will pair Naruto with Hinata for some time, then with Sakura for some time and at the end with Sasuke so there will be no "people rejection" and fans of all 3 pairings will be happy



That would be more realistic. It would be nice if he did that, with the amount of panels he has.


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## ShayCaramelldansen (May 21, 2009)

Ok I believe narutoXHinata should be together sasuke and saukra I really dont care who they be with and the reason I choose narutoXHinata is because Saukra treats naruto so badly and Hinata LOVES naruto Now I really didnt care about sasuke and saukra until I played naruto utilmate ninja3 the only thing Saukra wants is for sasuke to be ok the only thing hinata wants is for him to smile when naruto trys to be nice to saukra it PUNCH IN THE FACE CHA! Hinata helps naruto as much as she cans how is punching naruto go in to loving him?


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## Mogami Kyoko (May 22, 2009)

ShayCaramelldansen said:


> Ok I believe narutoXHinata should be together sasuke and saukra I really dont care who they be with and the reason I choose narutoXHinata is because Saukra treats naruto so badly and Hinata LOVES naruto Now I really didnt care about sasuke and saukra until I played naruto utilmate ninja3 the only thing Saukra wants is for sasuke to be ok the only thing hinata wants is for him to smile when naruto trys to be nice to saukra it PUNCH IN THE FACE CHA! Hinata helps naruto as much as she cans how is punching naruto go in to loving him?



I'm not sure if this can be considered "debate material". 

I'll keep this simple.
First off: The problem with NaruHina. One-sided love. And all NaruHina is about is Hinata's feelings. Naruto's feelings are hardly considered or even thought of. Not to mention, Naruto has shown no romantic signs toward Hinata.

Second off: Sakura doesn't hit Naruto as much as everyone exaggerates. 

That is all. 
I'm still on my break from debating. Why am I posting here?


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## Tyrannos (May 22, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I can see the romantic "innuendo" in the scene (Sakura moving the stool closer, etc.) but I just fail to see the romantic motivations, hence I don't consider it powerfully romantic.
> 
> So they're in the hospital scene and she's shocked when Naruto says "it seems we're getting closer to Sasuke" and she's shocked.....okay. So now that means she's in love with him? I'm not trying to mock you here, I want to understand what you see because I don't understand how her being shocked means her motivations are romantic. Is she shocked because she was thinking about Naruto when he mentioned Sasuke, or what? I don't get it.
> 
> As I see it, she was shocked because Naruto technically told her "she was doing her part". See the "WE"? Sakura has always felt bad about that, and then she does something nice for Naruto for a change, that she knows will make him happy when he is in need. Is this something so wrong to believe?



And why would Sakura be shocked with Naruto saying "we doing it together" when she said it herself to Naruto twice before?  (Chapter 301 and Chapter 310).

Was Naruto giving Sakura encouragement?  No, because she wasn't depressed over Sasuke.  

So what was it?   If you notice, she focuses on Naruto's bandaged arm.  Now why is that?  Could it be that Naruto's giving it his all in getting stronger, to bring back Sasuke?  That's part of it.  


Now focus on the stool scooting and the offering to feed Naruto.  As we know from Chapter 297, Yamato pointed out that Sakura has feelings for Naruto.  So could it be that moment where she's shocked, Sakura's realizing something for the first time?  The classic stool scooting, and the offer to feed, two powerful romantic cliches.   And another interruption scene?   All too fishy in my book.


This is exactly why NaruSaku's say Chapter 343 is another significant moment in the pairing.   Because there is a good chance that Sakura's falling in love for Naruto.  



Hikui said:


> Why am I being absurd? I'm not saying all characters are foils, only that I can twist my arguments into a good comparison and state they're foil. People love to do this in this thread. How I see it characters serve different purposes in a story but that doesn't necessarily means you can diminish most characters in to one-dimensional archetypes. Honestly, THAT is my point. It would be stupid if I were to settle that Sasuke is only a foil and Sakura a romantic interest for example. So if Hinata can act as a foil, it doesn't mean that is her whole purpose in the story, is it so hard to understand?



Making those accusations was absurd, saying that Konohamaru and Sakura are foils.  If you understand what they are, foil characters don't turn on and off foil mode whenever the writer chooses, they are _always_ a foil.



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Blaming Kishimoto for screwing up Naruhina?  Not at all, I think you're taking out of context. I was referring that the way Hinata's confession was settled made NaruSaku more complicated, and that there were easy ways to discard Hinata's love for Naruto and get her out of the way. BUT that didn't happen. I am actually grateful with the way he placed it, it was very well done for someone who is bad at romance. I wouldn't change it. And of course Naruto isn't going to reciprocate her feelings right away, who said he was?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Only in people's minds it seems more complicated, because Hinata confessed and Sakura realized it.  But yet, Kishimoto hasn't resolved NaruSaku either.  There still two unresolved interuptions, which have just as much significance.

Which essentially brings us back to square one.   Who will requit first?

Hinata's confessed in front of Naruto to which even an idiot like him realized it, and yet has he developed feelings enough for Hinata to requit?  I honestly doubt it, but then again he might.

Then there is the Sakura factor, she's realized Hinata loves Naruto, and her feelings for Naruto are growing as well.  Could she be the one to requit?   Again time will tell.


NaruHina visibily might be in the lead, but NaruSaku is running neck-and-neck now.  






Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the thing, Kishimoto is purposely keeping the Love Triangle unresolved.   If either one is resolved now, there would be less an impact later on.


For example, if Sakura requited Naruto's love now and then they reunited with Sasuke, don't you think a good ammount of the shock value would be gone?  Of course you do.

That's why I said all these years that Kishimoto is going to hold off until the end (perhaps the climax at earliest), before any pairings do any requitting.  (Including NaruHina).


*Spoiler*: __ 



If Naruto returns to Konoha after his battle with Pain and requits Hinata's love, then it would already confirmed SasuSaku and the there be no mystery of "what's Sakura's real feelings".

And a good chunk of the expectations would be gone and thus no serious impact.   (Instead of a boom, it's a thud).


 



Hikui said:


> I have no proof, but it seems to me that he treats her too well for not being Shikamaru, and being secondary. Because we know she's fodder.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Exactly, you have no proof.  It's all opinion!

You say Kishimoto treats her well, but yet she hasn't had anything significant since the Chuunin Exam Prelims.  (Which includes the present).    And her moment in the Prelims was nothing but a set-up for Naruto's fight with Neji.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Just like how Kishimoto set her confession and near death to bring out an extreme emotional moment (an excuse) to bring out the Higher Kyuubi forms.




Meanwhile, Shikamaru's plot is heavily interconnected with Naruto.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Even recently, Shikamaru's pep-talk with Naruto has a small role, in which Shikamaru acknowledges how much Naruto is a good influence.   Which encouraged Shikaku to let Naruto face Nagato, alone.




Instead, certain fans overglorify Hinata and her actions in making them look significant, when they aren't.   If you had to rank her importance, they would be equivalent of Ino's.  No joke.


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## mystic868 (May 22, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's right requiting will resolve main story pairings case and fans wouldn't be able to speculate anymore


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## saasha (May 22, 2009)

Which is why I believe we will get a Sasusaku resolution (positive or negative) before any major interaction b/w Naruto & Hinata. 

@ Temp position

The problem with your reasoning behind Sasusaku & Naruhina, is that you are bastardizing Sasuke's character way out of proportion & devaluing Naruto's regard for Hinata & overestimating his feelings for Sakura.


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## XXXTurkey (May 22, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> And why would Sakura be shocked with Naruto saying "we doing it together" when she said it herself to Naruto twice before?  (Chapter 301 and Chapter 310).
> 
> Was Naruto giving Sakura encouragement?  No, because she wasn't depressed over Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Right, don't mean to butt in here *Hikui* but i couldn't let this slide...

This is another classic case of using tenous evidence support more tenous evidence.  This is mainly chapter 343 by the way.

First off, if we look at chapter 343 as a whole, you might notice that Sasuke takes up the first quarter of the chapter.  Why is this important?  Because it sets up Sasuke's involvement in this chapter while also giving us an idea of his power.  Kishi put Sasuke at the start of the chapter, and because he does so, it puts Naruto and Sakura's conversation later into context.  The context being Sasuke.

Then, in the flashback, why is Naruto happy?  It's because "It's like you [Sakura] and me are getting closer to *Sasuke*" (Page 7).  So for Naruto its all about Sasuke.  There's no indication that he is "kinda enjoying this" (page 6) because of his feelings for Sakura.

On Sakura's side too, this chapter follows the theme of "getting Sasuke back together".  What is Sakura's conclusion at the end of her flashback?  That She and Naruto are both going to return Sasuke.  So, to reflect that she moves closer and offers to feed him.  You're putting so much focus on the "together" part of both of their earlier statements (something that you can't even use this time because the word "together" isn't used), and implying a pairing, when neither of them are thinking in that way.  You're taking the statement out of context again...

Similarly with the so called "romantic cliches".  When the context of the chapter is getting back Sasuke and the end result of the scene is 4/5 of the current team 7 ending up at Ichiraku's, we are getting further and further away from romance as a viable concept in that scene.

But what's worse is the part of your statement that i bolded.  You're using "evidence" that is tenous at best.  We have *no idea* what Yamato was talking about in chapter 297 because *he didn't finish his sentence*.  I'll say it again, you're using unsupported and ambiguous "evidence" to back up more unsupported and ambigous "evidence".  And that is 99% of what NaruSaku is built on...


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## Afalstein (May 22, 2009)

Tyrannos, I can't get the quote thing to work properly, but this belongs to you.



> That's the thing, Kishimoto is purposely keeping the Love Triangle unresolved.   If either one is resolved now, there would be less an impact later on.
> 
> 
> For example, if Sakura requited Naruto's love now and then they reunited with Sasuke, don't you think a good ammount of the shock value would be gone?  Of course you do.
> ...


 

This is actually a good point.  Romantic climaxes usually come toward the end of a series.  Granted, Kishi is not terribly interested in romance, as he's stated several times, but he still has to be aware of the convention.

But then, the series is wrapping up, in my opinion.  I mean, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



after Pein, who's really the next big threat?  Kisame?  Deidara? Kabutomaru?  Essentially the only main enemies that can match Naruto right now are Madarra and Sasuke (possibly Danzou).  Aside from them, the other villains are challenges only for the side characters.

That's kinda why I think we may see Naruto dissapear for a while.  Maybe with this new jutsu that Nagato's cooking up.  He might stay around to help rebuild the village, but after that, he's probably going to vanish and train like he did with the toads, and the rest of the village is left to deal with the other villians.  Tsunade and Sakura vs. Danzou, for instance.  Or Yamato, Sai, and Anko vs. Kabutomaru.  Team Gai against Kisame.  




More to the point, the idea of Hinata romance isn't really a done deal.  It has a number of complications and plot ideas.  Hiashi, for instance.  Naruto's promise with the caged bird seal.  Hinata's role as heiress and what this means in the politics of the town.  In fact, if Naruto does requit Hinata's affection, it almost raises more questions than it answers.


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## M4verick (May 22, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Right, don't mean to butt in here *Hikui* but i couldn't let this slide...
> 
> This is another classic case of using tenous evidence support more tenous evidence.  This is mainly chapter 343 by the way.
> 
> ...



Its not being ambiguous, its more like you are being oblivious to the connotations of that scene.  If you understand Sakura's character, she wants to be involved, she wants to feel like she's contributing.  Why, because she was utterly useless in part 1.  Naruto saying that they are getting closer to Sasuke gave her more security, and helped her feel appreciated.  Thus bringing the look on her face, scooting her chair closer, Naruto blushing as she was going to feed him.  The fact that it was interrupted, like every scene where Sakura is getting her feelings exposed is evidence as well. 

Even when you look at the page prior, Sakura is scolding Naruto.  Than Naruto says "though, I'm kind of enjoying this", and Sakura's face completely softens before any mention of Sasuke.  That set up makes it even more obvious for Naruto's next statement which created there little romantic scene.

With Yamato's statement, its completely obvious what he's gonna say.  Your just one of the few that don't want to admit it, exposing your insecurities in your own pairing.  You obviously feel threatened by the pairing, so you try to downplay any evidence that narusaku gets.  

The build up even in those chapters of Sakura's emotions to the point where she runs out to Naruto to stop him while he has 4tails.  Later, Sakura asks if she can learn the jutsu.  Yamato says she can't, than it shows 2 panels of her staring at Naruto feeling inadequate.  She than says "same as always... I can only do the dumbest things for Naruto", as it looks like she's forcing herself not to cry as she says it.

Yamato seeing all of this says "It's not what you do for Naruto that's important, it's *how strongly you feel about him* that counts". You know the rest, than it gets interrupted again.  If Yamato said any word besides love, it would be out of context.

When its Sakura's turn to confess, because of all the build up, it will be powerful.


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## Hikui (May 22, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> And why would Sakura be shocked with Naruto saying "we doing it together" when she said it herself to Naruto twice before?  (Chapter 301 and Chapter 310).
> 
> Was Naruto giving Sakura encouragement?  No, because she wasn't depressed over Sasuke.
> 
> ...



First, Sakura saying it and Naruto saying it are two completely different things. Look at the 'infamous' Yamato is Dr. Love scene (I'm joking on the names), Sakura still feels like she can't do anything for Naruto, Sasuke and over all Team 7. She has said so before, "we're doing it together" but that doesn't mean she recognizes that or feels like she's doing her part, it was more to remind Naruto and herself that she will also take part of that. Naruto actually telling her that is different. 

Look at it from another perspective. You try to help your friend but almost everything you do is fruitless in helping your friend even when you repeat yourself "I'm helping, I'm helping him", but still you feel useless. If said friend then says, "You're helping me, thanks". It means a lot. If he recognizes your work, it helps you believe that you're not that useless and do help. 

Now, you say to focus on the moment the moves the stool, right? I can see the romantic "innuendo" but not the motivation. So for this to work I need to have interpreted that Sakura's shocked expression is her 'discovering' that she might have feelings for Naruto, right? I guess I understand where you come from, but I STILL fail to see how Naruto saying "It seems we're getting closer to Sasuke" makes Sakura realize she likes or might like Naruto. If you can elaborate I would appreciate it. 



Tyrannos said:


> Making those accusations was absurd, saying that Konohamaru and Sakura are foils.  If you understand what they are, foil characters don't turn on and off foil mode whenever the writer chooses, they are _always_ a foil.


Oh god, why do you always butcher what I say? I said that if I am congruent enough with my arguments I could turn the tables and make any character fit the role of a foil, not that they're foils. 

And by your definition all characters are static and have just one role in the story. Good grief. So that means that Sasuke is a foil and only foil, then? Because you do agree that he has more foil attributes/moments than Hinata does, right?




Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



You're being fair enough here. So I guess, I agree.







Tyrannos said:


> That's the thing, Kishimoto is purposely keeping the Love Triangle unresolved.   If either one is resolved now, there would be less an impact later on.
> 
> 
> For example, if Sakura requited Naruto's love now and then they reunited with Sasuke, don't you think a good ammount of the shock value would be gone?  Of course you do.
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Why are we debating this? I agree, Naruto will not suddenly develop romantic feelings for Hinata when he gets back. I could almost place bets that he will leave it on hold, and definitely not reject her. And you must agree then, because if he rejects her now, it would mean the shock value for NaruSaku would be lost since everyone would know they would get together right? 

If that happens, NaruHina would wait for Naruto to do something, NaruSaku for Sakura and SasuSaku for either, I guess. 







Tyrannos said:


> Exactly, you have no proof.  It's all opinion!
> 
> You say Kishimoto treats her well, but yet she hasn't had anything significant since the Chuunin Exam Prelims.  (Which includes the present).    And her moment in the Prelims was nothing but a set-up for Naruto's fight with Neji.
> 
> ...



Hinata doesn't have significant role in that because, honestly, if she did it would mean that her feelings for Naruto would even more highlight and it would turn into some sort of horribly painful love triangle, you agree? It is already scary as it is. (Look at us debating!) 

And she is MORE significant than Ino.  Kishimoto could treat her the same than he did with Ino but he didn't, that's significant. He could have forgotten her love for Naruto, give her a lame confession, etc. For being a female role and a secondary role, Hinata is doing okay. Look at Anko, she's supposedly Kishimoto's favorite and she gets no panels. The fact that Hinata is used to introduce problems like Neji is also significant, she could've been left aside in that too. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Kishimoto could've used any other character than Hinata, take away the I love you bit and it would've been the same result. And she got pretty. (I accept the pretty bit is biased.) 




Done for now.

And XXXTurkey, no offense! I'm in a rush now so, it's good you went ahead. Don't worry.


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## Kage (May 22, 2009)

bireate said:


> You forget the reason why she wants more to do with Naruto, because since after Sasuke left, *she had no duty to protect anyone with a similar and tragic emotional baggage such as Sasuke*





> Sakura said huh? How does being questionable to the parties statement equal romantic tension. She was clueless when Naruto said that, and *then smiled when Sasuke was involved.*



\





> Sakura did that because she had guilt and sorrow over Naruto's condition for Sasuke and then emotional lost all thought because of putting the burden of saving Sasuke on him with extremes. *When she wants to save Sasuke just as much as he does, she feels selfish.*





> Sakura wants to help Naruto *Way to exaggerate her main objective as a character. *



i don't know what you consider all the above but...way to exaggerate her main objective as a character 



> She's already confessed, to Sasuke. *I see no reason for her to contridict her love for him for another boy that she never romantically saw in more ways than one.* And forget about Hinata?



what about hinata? 
naruto never gave hinata _the romantic time of day._ it's not okay for sakura to _contradict her love_ but naruto's love interests are easily subject to change. wait he never confessed and that's what makes a still very much unrequited love srs bsns.


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## Mogami Kyoko (May 22, 2009)

bireate said:


> Yes but Naruto's an idiot.



That's not an excuse. 

Sure, Naruto's not always the brightest crayon in the box, but he's not stupid enough to not show romantic interest in a girl he's interested in. And the girl he's romantically interested in is not Hinata.

It takes two to make a couple.

But really. Saying Naruto's an idiot because he hasn't shown any romantic interest towards Hinata...
It saddens me to see people disregard Naruto's feelings and insult him like that. All because Hinata likes him.


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## Inuhanyou (May 22, 2009)

Das jizz mah friends 

He knows what he's doing 

But i agree..Naruto's feelings are taken too lightly, and its really one of the reasons i actually detest hearing about the girls side of things and not neccisarily the guy's point of view. just because one doesn't mope around about how another doesn't like him that way doesn't mean the feelings aren't there


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## M4verick (May 22, 2009)

bireate said:


> You forget the reason why she wants more to do with Naruto, because since after Sasuke left, she had no duty to protect anyone with a similar and tragic emotional baggage such as Sasuke, this is a needy trait Sakura has in her even if it was for platonic reasons, the reason is Sakura wants to help people who suffer alot, but she doesn't understand how much she can do for them as a character who was particularly well endowed all her life.



Your extremely wrong here...  The whole manga, Sakura has aways been most protective of Naruto, not Sasuke.  Get your facts straight before you try to argue them.



bireate said:


> Her passion for Sasuke affirms that when she's with Naruto, she actually driving in a wedge of responsibilty for her comrades. She's simple like that by default.  Actually it just boosts Sakura's confidence in finding and saving Sasuke. Sakura doesn't value Naruto above all else when it comes to making a major change in her passion to save Sasuke. She's simply happy that Naruto has helped her all this time for not only her but the sake of being reuinte with Sasuke one day. Thus bringing the look on her face, scooting her chair closerU] Naruto,



The logic of these claims are completely off.  Through out part 2, clearly the bonds between Naruto and Sakura are way deeper than Sakura just being happy Naruto is helping her.  If it was pure happiness, the look on Sakura's face would not be as suggestive.


bireate said:


> When Sakura's feelings are interruped, she doesn't dwell on the issue more than she can.



Your point?  Most of the interrupts are mainly because there are more pressing issues at hand.


bireate said:


> She's never had a solitary moment where Naruto was there in her mind when the most emotional scenes takes place, she always confirms Naruto and Sasuke together when things in her heart burden her.



Like what things in her heart burden her.  Be more specific.


bireate said:


> Yamato always said he was never good at comparing human emotions easily,



Really, where does he *always *say this.


bireate said:


> he said he'll always keep a professional opinion about the things Naruto and Sakura do together when they have troubles.



And he says this where?


bireate said:


> Sakura never confirms those feelings ever, the outside party does so and they're alway ambigously taken out of context.



It does no matter if its an outside party.  If it came out of Sakura, it would kill the build up that Kishi is doing.  So its from the outside parties, than Kishi is writing.  Your ambiguously taking out of context the relationship between Naruto and Sakura as your generalizing there whole relationship as if its based on Sasuke.


bireate said:


> Sakura said huh? How does being questionable to the parties statement equal romantic tension.



Going from scolding expression with tense eyebrows to a complete softened expression.


bireate said:


> She was clueless when Naruto said that, and then smiled when Sasuke was involved.



She gave a smile after remembering the conversation not just Sasuke.


bireate said:


> Yamato wasn't going to say love.  There is no evidence since all the evidence is based on high speculative third parties that imput the duo's feelings for the situation invovling one another.



You contradict yourself.  Theres no evidence because the evidence comes from a third party?  That doesn't even make sense.


bireate said:


> It's conjecture that contrdicts the duo's bond to each other without a motive of theirs strengthening it.



Right, like Sakura's growing feelings for Naruto, and Naruto has been crushing on Sakura since the beginning of the manga.  But no motives...


bireate said:


> Sakura did that because she had guilt and sorrow over Naruto's condition for Sasuke and then emotional lost all thought because of putting the burden of saving Sasuke on him with extremes. When she wants to save Sasuke just as much as he does, she feels selfish.



Yea, thats part of it. Except for wanting to save Sasuke as much as he does.

What Sakura saw was how far Naruto would go for Sasuke.  And to protect Naruto, thats why she screamed, "...I'll save Sasuke for you".


bireate said:


> Sakura wants to help Naruto Way to exxgerate her main objective as a character. Odd, I thought it was clear Sakura gets depressed when she can't help anyone even Naruto to the point of being a useless cheerleader or have you forgotten the Forrest of Death scene, no scratch that the scene where Sakura feels emo when she came out of the mist arc and into the chunnin exams.



Not exaggerated at all.  As she did say "...the dumbest things for Naruto", not everyone else.  Same pattern, but more intense feelings and only directed towards Naruto.


bireate said:


> Kay, she said the same thing with Lee. So what? She can't cry and feel like shit without expressing some romance?



Really, link where she says "same as always... I can only do the dumbest things for Lee"


bireate said:


> Not really, NightJumper has a nice translation that makes more since than the generic sleepy fans line.



Right, as alternate translation that caters to your argument. I could care less.


bireate said:


> She's already confessed, to Sasuke. I see no reason for her to contridict her love for him for another boy that she never romantically saw in more ways than one. And forget about Hinata?



Yea, confessed in Part 1.  Things change in 3 years.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 22, 2009)

@Izzy and Kageneko

Okay guys, let's not get too carried away (you know where the best place for that is... XD)

Anyways, let's see here... 



Afalstein said:


> This is actually a good point.  Romantic climaxes usually come toward the end of a series.  Granted, Kishi is not terribly interested in romance, as he's stated several times, but he still has to be aware of the convention.
> 
> But then, the series is wrapping up, in my opinion.  I mean,
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





I beg to disagree. While I feel that the Manga is entering it's last couple of arcs, it's far from over.

[SPOILERS] Not only is the Danzou arc probably coming within the next few chapters, but you still must deal with the Kage summit, Madara, Sasuke, and we STILL don't know about Kabuto (for all we know, he could be an ally, though, so we'll see...). That's at least two years of material at a normal pace. Even if Kishi rushes, it'd still take over a year to do it properly. Oh, by the way, Diedara's dead, suicided in his fight with Sasuke, remember?[/SPOILERS]



> More to the point, the idea of Hinata romance isn't really a done deal. It has a number of complications and plot ideas. Hiashi, for instance. Naruto's promise with the caged bird seal. Hinata's role as heiress and what this means in the politics of the town. In fact, if Naruto does requit Hinata's affection, it almost raises more questions than it answers.



Agreed, and thus is why I heavily doubt anything will become of it. Kishi is looking to make solutions for his characters, not cause more problems.


----------



## XXXTurkey (May 22, 2009)

M4verick said:


> Its not being ambiguous, its more like you are being oblivious to the connotations of that scene.  If you understand Sakura's character, *she wants to be involved, she wants to feel like she's contributing.*  Why, because she was utterly useless in part 1.  *Naruto saying that they are getting closer to Sasuke gave her more security, and helped her feel appreciated.*  Thus bringing the look on her face, scooting her chair closer, Naruto blushing as she was going to feed him.  The fact that it was interrupted, like every scene where Sakura is getting her feelings exposed is evidence as well.



Agreed with the bolded.  So she decides to return the favour and do something nice for Naruto.  Does that mean that she loves him?  No, it doesn't have to mean anything other than her being nice.  Why can't she do something nice for him without it being misconstrued as a romantic gesture?  More importantly, the decision comes off the back off her remembering that he acknowledges her help.  She appreciates that and decides to return the favour.  I'll say it again, romance?  Where?

And if it truly was romance then why is "the fact it is interrupted" evidence?  Sakura isn't bothered in any way by either Sai or Kakashi doing it for her.  Surely if she did it with romantic intent there would be more of a reaction fromm her?  This is why i say that such a moment needs follow up.  Because without it the scene is *completely* ambiguous in terms of romance.

And Sakura's "expressions" are really neither here nor there.  How can you tell from an expression when someone is attracted to someone else?  Because the usual way in manga is the good old fashioned blush.  Either way, you've got completely the wrong end of the stick here:



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> Even when you look at the page prior, Sakura is scolding Naruto.  Than Naruto says "though, I'm kind of enjoying this", and Sakura's face completely softens before any mention of Sasuke.  That set up makes it even more obvious for Naruto's next statement which created there little romantic scene.



No, it doesn't.  Her single expression after Naruto's comment is "Huh?" (and yes she actually says that).  Then Sasuke is mentioned and we might be able to talk about her face "softening".  But even then we are bordering on the ridiculous.  Sakura's "Huh?" is not a romantic indication... no-one's is... otherwise we would be able to pair any character that was confused and the other character that caused said confusion.  I'm pretty sure Naruto would be paired with everyone by now...



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> With Yamato's statement, its completely obvious what he's gonna say.  Your just one of the few that don't want to admit it, exposing your insecurities in your own pairing.  You obviously feel threatened by the pairing, so you try to downplay any evidence that narusaku gets.



Okay, obvious huh?

Tell me, how many panels has Yamato been in with Sakura by that point?  It was twelve chapters and at a guess a couple of days at most.  If we take it as read that Yamato means Sakura loves Naruto then he would be basing that on what?  48 hourse of interaction?  Less?

And you don't even have Yamato *actually* saying those words.

Or, put it this way.  What is the context of the scene?  What has Sakura's main worry been?

Her not doing enough.  You admitted that yourself:



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> If you understand Sakura's character, she wants to be involved, she wants to feel like he's contributing.  Why, because she was utterly useless in part 1.  Naruto saying that they are getting closer to Sasuke gave her more security, and helped her feel appreciated.



So why couldn't the sentence end with "In reality you *do enough for Naruto as it is*"?  Yamato isn't repeating himself and would have been addressing something that she is evidently exhibiting and has comtemplated, even in part one.

As oppose to so called "romantic" feelings that Sakura herself has not exhibited or contemplated at any time.



			
				M4verick said:
			
		

> The build up even in those chapters of Sakura's emotions to the point where she runs out to Naruto to stop him while he has 4tails.  Later, Sakura asks if she can learn the jutsu.  Yamato says she can't, than *it shows 2 panels of her staring at Naruto feeling inadequate*.  She than says "same as always... I can only do the dumbest things for Naruto", as it looks like she's forcing herself not to cry as she says it.
> 
> Yamato seeing all of this says "It's not what you do for Naruto that's important, it's *how strongly you feel about him* that counts". You know the rest, than it gets interrupted again.  If Yamato said any word besides love, it would be out of context.



No.  The context has *never* been love and *really* wasn't in that scene.  The context has been Sakura's sense of worth to the team.  Something she actually admitted in that scene and something which was a main ingredient in her desire to improve.  Back in part 1 she said she wanted to be useful to Naruto and Sasuke.  You're making it unneccessarily complicated and attempting to introduce themes that just aren't there.  Look at the bolded stuff. Strong feelings aren't the same as love in Sakura's case because they've never been portrayed as such.  Think about it.

Either:

a) she's in love with Naruto already (even since part 1 maybe?):  In which case, why no date request acceptance or comtemplation of her loss of feelings for Sasuke or comtemplation of her feelings for Naruto?

Or

b) she's not in love with Naruto and this *is* about her self worth issues and not about her so called "love" for Naruto.  Supported by her own statements earlier in the chapter.



> When its Sakura's turn to confess, because of all the build up, it will be powerful.



Tell me, how would that go?  I love you because...


----------



## M4verick (May 22, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Agreed with the bolded.  So she decides to return the favour and do something nice for Naruto.  Does that mean that she loves him?  No, it doesn't have to mean anything other than her being nice.  Why can't she do something nice for him without it being misconstrued as a romantic gesture?  More importantly, the decision comes off the back off her remembering that he acknowledges her help.  She appreciates that and decides to return the favour.  I'll say it again, romance?  Where?



And why does every moment between them have to be only friendship?

Example;
If a boy and girl that are friends go to the beach at night to watch the stars, its not romantic.  

If a boy and a girl go to the beach at night, that kind of like each other, and they just watch the stars, its romantic.

The difference?  Its the feelings.

Its like giving a necklace to your mom, and the girl your trying to date.  Although the action may be the same, the feelings are different which changes the dynamic.


XXXTurkey said:


> And if it truly was romance then why is "the fact it is interrupted" evidence?  Sakura isn't bothered in any way by either Sai or Kakashi doing it for her.  Surely if she did it with romantic intent there would be more of a reaction fromm her?  This is why i say that such a moment needs follow up.  Because without it the scene is *completely* ambiguous in terms of romance.



Like I said, the follow ups will happen when Kishi finally brings out her feelings.  If there was follow up for every interrupt, than it would kill the build up of her feelings.


XXXTurkey said:


> And Sakura's "expressions" are really neither here nor there.  How can you tell from an expression when someone is attracted to someone else?  Because the usual way in manga is the good old fashioned blush.  Either way, you've got completely the wrong end of the stick here:



1. "And Sakura's "expressions" are really neither here nor there." That does not make sense, please clarify.
2. Did I type attraction?
3. Re-read what I typed cuz you have the wrong end of the stick.


XXXTurkey said:


> No, it doesn't.  Her single expression after Naruto's comment is "Huh?" (and yes she actually says that).  Then Sasuke is mentioned and we might be able to talk about her face "softening".  But even then we are bordering on the ridiculous.  Sakura's "Huh?" is not a romantic indication... no-one's is... otherwise we would be able to pair any character that was confused and the other character that caused said confusion.  I'm pretty sure Naruto would be paired with everyone by now...



 Actually, it really depends on the context.  In this case, yes.  "Huh", has no musical indication what so ever.  But James Brown would used it in songs and made it soulful.  It all depends on the context.


XXXTurkey said:


> Okay, obvious huh?
> 
> Tell me, how many panels has Yamato been in with Sakura by that point?  It was twelve chapters and at a guess a couple of days at most.  If we take it as read that Yamato means Sakura loves Naruto then he would be basing that on what?  48 hourse of interaction?  Less?
> 
> And you don't even have Yamato *actually* saying those words.



Oh my, I didn't know it takes a certain amount of time to tell if someone loves another? What is the prerequisite, 72 hours?
prerequisite


XXXTurkey said:


> Or, put it this way.  What is the context of the scene?  What has Sakura's main worry been?
> 
> Her not doing enough.  You admitted that yourself:



Yea, and I admitted other things as well that you conveniently left out.

She's feeling a lot of things.  Inadequacy, compassion, love, concern, care.  

Than its followed up with Naruto collapsing.  Sakura is than holding Naruto like she has never held him before.

Yes, very obvious.


XXXTurkey said:


> So why couldn't the sentence end with "In reality you *do enough for Naruto as it is*"?  Yamato isn't repeating himself and would have been addressing something that she is evidently exhibiting and has comtemplated, even in part one.



If thats what he was going to say, than why would it be interrupted?


XXXTurkey said:


> As oppose to so called "romantic" feelings that Sakura herself has not exhibited or contemplated at any time.



Nope, she has.


XXXTurkey said:


> No.  The context has *never* been love and *really* wasn't in that scene.



Oh really? Do you even know what love is?


XXXTurkey said:


> The context has been Sakura's sense of worth to the team.  Something she actually admitted in that scene and something which was a main ingredient in her desire to improve.  Back in part 1 she said she wanted to be useful to Naruto and Sasuke.  You're making it unneccessarily complicated and attempting to introduce themes that just aren't there.



Your fixating your self on one theme and ignoring what else is going on in that scene.



XXXTurkey said:


> Look at the bolded stuff. Strong feelings aren't the same as love in Sakura's case because they've never been portrayed as such.  Think about it.


To be frank, that logic is dumb.  How do you show love than with out it being verbal.  Or nothing that you do is love until you say your in love?


XXXTurkey said:


> Either:
> 
> 
> a) she's in love with Naruto already (even since part 1 maybe?):  In which case, why no date request acceptance or comtemplation of her loss of feelings for Sasuke or comtemplation of her feelings for Naruto?
> ...



Theres only those two options in XXXTurkey's world.  

I go with option C.  

Sakura has had a soft spot for Naruto since the beginning that she does not understand.  In Part two, she has growing feelings for Naruto which is conflicting with her feelings from the past of Sasuke.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 23, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> This is actually a good point. Romantic climaxes usually come toward the end of a series. Granted, Kishi is not terribly interested in romance, as he's stated several times, but he still has to be aware of the convention.
> 
> But then, the series is wrapping up, in my opinion. I mean,
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


 

*Spoiler*: __ 



The only major threats to Naruto is Danzou, Sasuke, and a BIG emphasis on Madara. (Even Yondaime himself admitted Madara was stronger than him). And with the Manga having roughly 50 to 100 chapters remaining, that's more than enough.

Naruto won't disappear again, he's Hokage Level now. The only thing that remains is him taking control of the Kyuubi.

As for NaruHina, we have to wait and see. To me, I honestly don't see how Hinata has anymore role in the story. Naruto changed the Hyuuga back in the Chuunin Finals, and now Hinata's changed. That's all there is with them.






XXXTurkey said:


> Right, don't mean to butt in here *Hikui* but i couldn't let this slide...And that is 99% of what NaruSaku is built on...


 
Come on, man. If the NaruSasu people can see it, why can't you? Last I checked they don't want NaruSaku to happen as much as SasuSaku and NaruHinas. 

You might want to stop staring at the sun. 



Hikui said:


> First, Sakura saying it and Naruto saying it are two completely different things. Look at the 'infamous' Yamato is Dr. Love scene (I'm joking on the names), Sakura still feels like she can't do anything for Naruto, Sasuke and over all Team 7. She has said so before, "we're doing it together" but that doesn't mean she recognizes that or feels like she's doing her part, it was more to remind Naruto and herself that she will also take part of that. Naruto actually telling her that is different.
> 
> Look at it from another perspective. You try to help your friend but almost everything you do is fruitless in helping your friend even when you repeat yourself "I'm helping, I'm helping him", but still you feel useless. If said friend then says, "You're helping me, thanks". It means a lot. If he recognizes your work, it helps you believe that you're not that useless and do help.
> 
> Now, you say to focus on the moment the moves the stool, right? I can see the romantic "innuendo" but not the motivation. So for this to work I need to have interpreted that Sakura's shocked expression is her 'discovering' that she might have feelings for Naruto, right? I guess I understand where you come from, but I STILL fail to see how Naruto saying "It seems we're getting closer to Sasuke" makes Sakura realize she likes or might like Naruto. If you can elaborate I would appreciate it.


 
Whoa, there! It's different because Sakura said it to Naruto, but not Naruto to Sakura??? Last I checked, those scenes were all about "getting closer to Sasuke".

And you easily use Chapter 301 after the fact that Naruto cheered her up afterwards in Chapter 298. She wasn't feeling useless or discouraged at that point, she was the other way around, she was hyped!

FYI, with that conversation with Yamato. She was feeling guilty that Naruto was bearing all the burden himself, not her feeling useless. 



Hikui said:


> So that means that Sasuke is a foil and only foil, then? Because you do agree that he has more foil attributes/moments than Hinata does, right?


 
No, Sasuke doesn't have more foil attributes than Hinata and the others. He just has more of a role because of he's one of the main cast and him being Naruto's rival.

Hinata, like Gaara, are characters that come out every blue moon. 



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Too bad more of your side doesn't have such wise thinking.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



All I hear that as soon as Naruto returns, the requitting happens. 

*Would Naruto reject Hinata?* I don't think so either. Frankly, he's got more important issues to deal with. At most Naruto will go to see how she's doing. 

*Naruto rejecting Hinata effect NaruSaku?* Not really. If Naruto rejected Hinata, it doesn't automatically lock NaruSaku. There is SasuSaku to deal with, and Kishimoto could very well surprise us with that.

After all, we knew for a very long time Hinata had feelings for Naruto, and the Databooks even said Hinata was working up a confession. So when Hinata finally confessed, there wasn't any shock value, it was more like "finally she did it!" But with SasuSaku, Sasuke pushed her away and Sakura hasn't been dwelling on her feelings openly, so that leaves that unknown value that gives shock value it's potentcy. Same with Sakura letting down Sasuke and choosing Naruto.






Hikui said:


> Hinata doesn't have significant role in that because, honestly, if she did it would mean that her feelings for Naruto would even more highlight and it would turn into some sort of horribly painful love triangle, you agree? It is already scary as it is. (Look at us debating!)
> 
> And she is MORE significant than Ino.  Kishimoto could treat her the same than he did with Ino but he didn't, that's significant. He could have forgotten her love for Naruto, give her a lame confession, etc. For being a female role and a secondary role, Hinata is doing okay. Look at Anko, she's supposedly Kishimoto's favorite and she gets no panels. The fact that Hinata is used to introduce problems like Neji is also significant, she could've been left aside in that too.
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


 
Turn into a horribly painful love triangle? What it isn't already? 

No, if there was too much emphasis on the romance, it wouldn't be a battle manga anymore, but either a comedic one or a romantic manga.

And don't get me started on Anko, she really got screwed. Which is ironic, because she was Kishi's favorite. :rofl


*Spoiler*: _With Hinata_ 



Yes, anyone could've filled the role. And yes, saving it for Hinata did have some umph because of her love, but it was just a momentary thing. Would've been something _major_ if Kishimoto went ahead and actually killed her off.

As for her being pretty, she is. But damn for someone that rich, I wish she ditch that bowl cut.


----------



## Buzz Killington (May 23, 2009)

> More to the point, the idea of Hinata romance isn't really a done deal. It has a number of complications and plot ideas. Hiashi, for instance. Naruto's promise with the caged bird seal. Hinata's role as heiress and what this means in the politics of the town. In fact, if Naruto does requit Hinata's affection, it almost raises more questions than it answers.



Well, the heiress to the Hyuuga Clan would be a perfect match for Naruto, especially if he becomes Hokage. If Hiashi wanted his daughter to marry someone strong and powerful, who better than the Hokage, and son of a previous Hokage? Any children they have would then be descended from two Hokages, become the next heir to the Hyuuga clan, switch between power attacks and Gentle Fist at will, and have massive amounts of chakra as well as the Byakugan. Not a bad scenario, if you ask me.



> Sure, Naruto's not always the brightest crayon in the box, but he's not stupid enough to not show romantic interest in a girl he's interested in. And the girl he's romantically interested in is not Hinata.



Well, how about when he once told Hinata she'd make one heck of a wife? And when he saw her bathing in a lake, he remarked about the beautiful girl he saw, though he didn't know it was her. The attraction is there, he just wasn't aware of it since he didn't know how Hinata felt about him.



> If Naruto returns to Konoha after his battle with Pain and requits Hinata's love, then it would already confirmed SasuSaku and the there be no mystery of "what's Sakura's real feelings"



Confirming NaruHina wouldn't automatically guarantee SasuSaku. *looks around for LeeSaku fans to come to my aid.*


----------



## Afalstein (May 23, 2009)

hopedlrer said:


> Isn't NaruHina the most popular Naruto Uzumaki het pairing in the entire world. Seriously, I've seen parodies of the two's dynamic in many flashes and magazines that highlight the two above everyone else.



Um, no.  I'm NaruHina myself, so I understand where you're coming from, but I believe in Japan NaruHina is not, actually, very popular.  The Western world likes it the best, which is why you've probably seen so much work done on it, but it's not the biggest in the entire world.

More to the point, though, NaruHina is easy to make fun of, because there's a great deal of opportunity for comic relief.  The anime made especial use of this, by having Hinata faint all the time.  Hilarious stuff, and pretty cute, but I think the only time it happens in the manga is when Naruto comes back to the village and Hinata sees him for the first time in a couple years.

Come to think of it, compared to NaruSaku, Kishi hasn't really done many comic scenes for NaruHina, as opposed to NaruSaku where most of it is portrayed comically.  Granted, Kishi doesn't do many NaruHina scenes to begin with, so the percentage is about equal, but most of the scenes have been very positive, even if they are one-sided.


----------



## A. Waltz (May 23, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Lol, 

Hinata means equal to or more than Sasuke in Naruto's book. How?

Sasuke has been able to awake the Fox's Cloak in the Zubasa arc. And again in the oro/sai trator arc. Except that time it goes up to 4 tail i think..


Hinata was able to get him to 8 tails in an instant. AND he ALMOST went 9 tails. xP 




And we all know Sasuke>Sakura in Naruto's book. xP


----------



## Kage (May 23, 2009)

^err what exactly are you trying to prove? 

*Spoiler*: __ 



hinata was the straw that broke the camels back btw. the whole village being destroyed, dead sensei's thing _kinda_ helped the transformation along too ya know


----------



## A. Waltz (May 23, 2009)

kageneko said:


> ^err what exactly are you trying to prove?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



your best friend taking a hit for you, Fox's Cloak. 

a girl you respect and admire, tells you she loves you since day one, has been true to you since the start, takes a hit against an enemy she knows she has no chance again, saves you some time at the cost of her being conscious, and takes the hit, 6 tails.

your village being destroyed by a cripple who doesn't know how to move on from his parents and bf being murdered by some konoha ninja, 1 tail of pissed off anger.

knowing your sensei got killed by the same guy who was also his student, 1 tail.

having your cloak be destroyed by that same cripple, *priceless*.

for everything else, there's master card. 

well.. 

i guess i am trying to prove that naruto cares about hinata more than sasuke. [psh like that will happen. i mean, i may be a naruhina fan and all but cmon! naruto cares about sasuke more.. ?] 

because sasuke only brought out the cloak. hinata+village+sensei destroyed=8.9. 

xP
i dont know what im saying either..


----------



## Kage (May 23, 2009)

gromis said:


> I'm sure SasuSaku is more popular over there. Anyway, Kishi didn't have a creative approach with Sakura so far so I don't think Naruto will have such a dynamic with her.



no it's not 

what does kishi's creative or lack there of approach for sakura have to do with anything? by this logic sakura's dynamic with _anyone_ will be severely lacking.

AznUchihaChick: ...ah.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 24, 2009)

AznUchihaChick said:


> i dont know what im saying either..



...What a relief.



gromis said:


> Kishi didn't have a creative approach with Sakura so far so I don't think Naruto will have such a dynamic with her.





gromis said:


> so far so I don't think





gromis said:


> think



Not trying to ruin the fantasy, but a factual basis tends to help convey your message.

It seems most lack in this department however. You jump right onto the bandwagon oblivious of the destination. 

How about some reasons your opinion should matter anymore than that of mine?


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 24, 2009)

its kakasaku kagesama in japan  

But i agree...popularity won't make a pairing, cause Kishi most likely already has these things mapped out in the development of the characters, he's almost said as much in part 2 whereas in part 1 he apparently "never even thought about it much" which kinda says alot considering the saku---> sasu thing was onesided along with the hina-->naru.  NaruSaku growing friendship was what i saw at that time, part 2 is a bit different tho imo....


----------



## mystic868 (May 24, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> But i agree...popularity won't make a pairing, cause Kishi most likely already has these things mapped out in the development of the characters, he's almost said as much in part 2 whereas in part 1 he apparently "never even thought about it much" which kinda says alot considering the saku---> sasu thing was onesided along with the hina-->naru.  NaruSaku growing friendship was what i saw at that time, part 2 is a bit different tho imo....


However NS friendship is still growing


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 24, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> However NS friendship is still growing



I partially disagree...i do agree that they are becoming closer as friends, but i feel that they are becoming much closer otherwise as well. Its not as platonic as some might claim, based on certain happenings.


----------



## JERITROLL (May 24, 2009)

^Agreed, and I think that's what mistic was talking about Inu, that it's that they're growing closer than just being friends. But again, that's, of course, debatable.


----------



## shurei (May 24, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Right, don't mean to butt in here *Hikui* but i couldn't let this slide...
> 
> 
> But what's worse is the part of your statement that i bolded.  You're using "evidence" that is tenous at best.  We have *no idea* what Yamato was talking about in chapter 297 because *he didn't finish his sentence*.  I'll say it again, you're using unsupported and ambiguous "evidence" to back up more unsupported and ambigous "evidence".  And that is 99% of what NaruSaku is built on...



As a reader of the manga, I concluded that Yamato was talking about Sakura's feeling for Naruto, feelings that Sakura herself couldn't see nor understand. It was a natural conclusion for me because I am not into pairings. But we all have to wait, and I can say that it won't take over 300 chapters before we get a confession.


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 24, 2009)

gromis said:


> And this is where I disagree, I feel Naruto and Sakura's growth as friends has concluded now and Kishi is heading Naruto to develop with other characters that take precedence into more major parts of the story. Hinata is one of these examples, and now after her confession it's inevitable Naruto will start seeing her more than just a comrade. Sakura has nothing more to connect with Naruto but faith in him and helping him bring back Sasuke.



Its not inevitable considering how Hinata has hardly had development prior to this point. Sasuke and Sakura as the two mains behind him take precedence over anyone else.

I disagreed with the claim that the relationship as friends has been the only one in part 2, and i disagree that the relationship as it is now is platonic and for that matter one sided as well.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 24, 2009)

gromis said:


> Hinata has made a break ground for herself and her feelings for Naruto above anything else. Kishimoto has made it to a point where Naruto and his undenaible passion for acceptance is above all else. Kishimoto won't contridict his own writing when it comes down to it. Sasuke and Sakura are his core bonds as a main character, but Hinata was always a piece of Naruto's main core values in romance and admiration(A girl like you I really like) even if he didn't realize it. One sided or not, Naruto and Hinata are perfect combinations for a husband and a wife.
> 
> It is platonic, Sakura has nothing but mutal friendship for Naruto. Sakura has yet to act on her feelings, and therefore she will not make haste for Naruto anymore than she has, she's accepted Hinata's love for Naruto and moves on. She still has Sasuke though.



I almost pissed myself.

It's quite ideal for you to convolute and distort the grounded basis of this manga for your own selfishness.

Hinata -> Naruto -> Sakura -> Sasuke

That's been established correct? 

Now the 'onus' is on you to reprove it, good luck.

I'm inclined to say your opinion is as relevant to the story as your posts are to my interest.

Also, keywords, 'I think'

That's cool you have an opinion bro, but you're not the author.


----------



## mystic868 (May 24, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> ^Agreed, and I think that's what mistic was talking about Inu, that it's that they're growing closer than just being friends. But again, that's, of course, debatable.



that's right I meant friendship and everything connected to mutual relations.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 24, 2009)

gromis said:


> But Sakura has no mutual relations to Naruto though in terms of romance.



As is the case for Naruto -> Hinata

Now let me ask you gromis, if this isn't stopping you from supporting your pairing, what leads you to believe it's right to use as a basis for your rebuttal in regards to another? 

I don't mind if you base it on preference, so long as you don't push those beliefs onto someone that places their faith where it counts, the story.

You see, I'm not simply a fan of Naruto & Sakura as a couple, I'm a fan of the manga.

It's not hard being hypocritical when you yourself are insecure.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 24, 2009)

gromis said:


> I base NaruHina off of the present tense of the couple and the idea. The idea is simple, Naruto is a kid who was hated and misunderstood and wants to become the greatest of Hokage, Hinata is a girl who stood out and acknowledged and understood him way before no one else did, but was shy and shunned by the burden she carries as a hyuuga and a secret admirer. Both characters live out the desires to realize their misfortunes and make the most of it by combining each others goals and ambitions with one another in a indirect sense. But the romance is a journey to reconzie each others feelings when they see only a hero and inspiration in each other rather than a love and passion. Or in Hinata's case a all of the above, Naruto however has never seen Hinata enough to see her more than that, he's only seen glimpses of her and acknowledges as something more than weird. He has trust in her and can easily come to her as friend but he's never seen what she strives for in live and the core motives for those goals. Thus showing a naivety to her character since Naruto is a open and out going guy. It's his decision but he knows how much he sees Hinata enough and now has the potential to be a part of her life without it being indirect.
> 
> Sakura just came in to late in Naruto's life to make a difference now.



Naruto is the inspirational character, hence Hinata's admiration. 

We've already established where Hinata's feelings stem from, her own lack of influence and insecurities. 

Her strength is drawn not from herself, but dependent on another character. Reminds one of Part 1 Sakura.

What else is there to base this relationship on other than Hinata's misplaced dependence?


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 25, 2009)

gromis said:


> Naruto is the key element to Hinata's will to change, yet Hinata has always wanted to improve herself despite Naruto's influence. Kuranai confirmed she's always trained yet failed at times, but because of Naruto she keeps going. You could say they stem confidence by  in different ways.



Crutches are temporary.



gromis said:


> Naruto has always never opened his true feelings to anyone, yet he talked to Hinata about him always putting on a poker face to look tough so he wouldn't feel weak and inseure. This confirms Naruto's trust in Hinata if she could sit and listen to him and not judge him for those flaws, gives him security and comfort despite what others think. A good relationship always starts in trust.



I'm quite sure Naruto 'trusts' Iruka too. Might explain all the free ramen.


----------



## Hikui (May 25, 2009)

Weird how everything turned to this. 

Anyway, I'm replying to Tyrannos. 



Tyrannos said:


> Whoa, there! It's different because Sakura said it to Naruto, but not Naruto to Sakura??? Last I checked, those scenes were all about "getting closer to Sasuke".
> 
> And you easily use Chapter 301 after the fact that Naruto cheered her up afterwards in Chapter 298. She wasn't feeling useless or discouraged at that point, she was the other way around, she was hyped!
> 
> FYI, with that conversation with Yamato. She was feeling guilty that Naruto was bearing all the burden himself, not her feeling useless.



It's different in both instances. You said it was the same because Sakura had told Naruto that before, I disagree. Both instances are different, and try to convey different situations. 

And what does Naruto cheering her up in chapter 301 has to do with anything? And in which chapter was she feeling hyped? I'm confused, so I can't understand your point fully, sorry. Maybe manga panels would help. 

And FYI, if she felt guilty because Naruto was bearing all the burden by himself it's because she felt she wasn't helping that translates in a feeling of uselessness. 




Tyrannos said:


> No, Sasuke doesn't have more foil attributes than Hinata and the others. He just has more of a role because of he's one of the main cast and him being Naruto's rival.
> 
> Hinata, like Gaara, are characters that come out every blue moon.



Just because Sasuke has central role doesn't mean he isn't a foil, you know. I'm done debating this, thank you. 




Tyrannos said:


> Too bad more of your side doesn't have such wise thinking.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'll ignore the attack. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



And just so you know, most if not all NaruHina shippers think Naruto will not suddenly develop romantic feelings for her out of the blue, just so you know. 

*Would Naruto reject Hinata?* No. And he will see how she is doing. Of the first things he thinks once he comes back to action is her well being, he will see if she's okay. 
*Naruto rejecting Hinata effect NaruSaku?* Agreed, it doesn't affect that much. 

And you're claiming NaruHina doesn't have shock value? Really? As a NaruHina shipper myself, even when I knew the confession needed to be done, didn't see it coming. On a personal level, the only ship I happen to think that has shock value is SasuSaku as they haven't interacted as of yet. NaruSaku....well, I wouldn't dare to say it would be unexpected if they happen. It would be sort of plain to me, but that's personal opinion (that I'm not going to debate). 







Tyrannos said:


> Turn into a horribly painful love triangle? What it isn't already?
> 
> No, if there was too much emphasis on the romance, it wouldn't be a battle manga anymore, but either a comedic one or a romantic manga.
> 
> ...



It isn't exactly painful for now, at least not for me, but it might get there. 
And poor Anko. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



I would've respected Kishimoto if he had killed Hinata if he didn't intend her to end up with the hero. It would've been a nice departure, but he didn't so we'll see what he has in store. 

And about the bowl cut, Kishimoto probably thinks it's cute. It doesn't bother me much, she's pretty either way. 




Out.


----------



## Afalstein (May 25, 2009)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> Naruto is the inspirational character, hence Hinata's admiration.
> 
> We've already established where Hinata's feelings stem from, her own lack of influence and insecurities.
> 
> ...



Three posts in a row.  That's a new one.

Yes, Naruto is the inspirational figure.  But arguably, that applies to Sakura as much as to Hinata.  Prior to his promise to definitely retrieve Sasuke, she was completely feeling mopey herself.  Most of the improvement Sakura has done since has been done so she won't get in Naruto's way.  Except with her it seems to be pure inspiration and not much more.  

And even Sakura's development is in doubt.  People have argued that despite Sakura's professed autonomy in Part II, she still pretty much has had to rely on Naruto or others for the entire manga.  The only major villian she's defeated is Sasori, and that was with Elder Chouji's help.  Many people argue that until she has truly faced up to and defeated a threat on her own, she hasn't really grown up.

Also arguably, by the end of the manga, Sakura's relation with Sasuke was shown positively in the fact that it had changed from simple obsession to something deeper.  It still ended badly, but it was never directly said that Sakura's devotion to Sasuke was a bad thing.

In fact, Naruto said, back then, that the thing he really liked about Sakura was her need to be acknowledged by Sasuke and her unwavering commitment to make that happen.  He admired that devotion/dependance.

Hey, you're right, that does sound like Hinata.  Wonder how Naruto will feel once he learns that she's like that too?



Let'sFightingLove said:


> I'm quite sure Naruto 'trusts' Iruka too. Might explain all the free ramen.



I don't get it.  I agree with you, Naruto trusts Iruka.  Iruka is one of the most important figure in his life, he's essentially a father figure.  But this would seem to support the fact that since he trusts Hinata, Hinata is also an important figure in his life.

Unless you're saying that Naruto trusts Iruka solely because of the free ramen, and that Naruto's trust does not actually mean much.  But then one wonders why he hasn't given something so trivial to someone so important as Sakura purportedly is.

I'm sorry, you're probably making a very different point, but I don't understand you.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 26, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> In fact, Naruto said, back then, that the thing he really liked about Sakura was her need to be acknowledged by Sasuke and her unwavering commitment to make that happen.  He admired that devotion/dependance.
> 
> Hey, you're right, that does sound like Hinata.  Wonder how Naruto will feel once he learns that she's like that too?



Taken out of context.

I hate delving into sensitivities such as interpretation and connotations, but fine.

If we're going into specifics here so be it.

Firstly, just to humor you, Sasuke was irrelevant in this, and along with him, the justification to your reasoning.

It was simply a congruence and affirmation in terms of relation, not meant to be interpreted as anything more or less. 

Remember, this was Naruto's impression, *HIS *reason, not hers. If you disagree, you might want to look up shipping costs for mail orders to japan.

However, if you're going to play that game; taking Naruto's ambitions into consideration (Hokage & Reciprocation in terms of Sakura's love) and the devotion that has posed influence amongst others, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of his character and relations with the influenced?

You articulated it perfectly, naruto's feelings for sakura stem from relation. Naruto too wishes to be acknowledged, to become hokage. Has this become any less true through the story's progression? 
I don't think I need to elaborate.

So we've established his feelings stand then?

In fact, his reason for continuing to 'love' Sakura is the basis for Naruto's presumable requited love for Hinata's character.

Naruto turning back on his word would mean he has given up feelings for Sakura, what're you left to work with then? Where would Hinata's feelings be for naruto if he lost the only reason she admired him from the start, his uncanny perserverence and determination? ie. Hokage & Sakura.

Although I agree Sakura is similar to Hinata in that sense, you've neglected the fact that without Naruto -> Sakura, NaruHina would lack incentive in itself, and remain a one-sided, baseless, inane cesspool harbouring home to ill mannered fantasy prone bigots that support one pairing, 
Left Hinata Breast x Right Hinata Breast

Hinata's feelings would be in vain regardless, no? 

And finally, 

Hinata -> Naruto -> Sakura -> Sasuke

The burden of proof is on you, and it's hard to refute fact with opinion. Regardless of future outcome, for the time being, I'm technically correct.

And that's just about all there is worth going over in your post, other points are too vapid to apply assertion to, honestly.

As for the 'Iruka Ramen' it was a sexual reference to the poster's notions of 'trust' meant to be taken as a joke more or less.


----------



## KFC (May 26, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> I partially disagree...i do agree that they are becoming closer as friends, but i feel that they are becoming much closer otherwise as well. Its not as platonic as some might claim, based on certain happenings.



Like...?

I'm not being rude or anything, I just haven't really noticed anything beyond Sakura realizing that Naruto is actually all right. Sure, I say this pairing so far makes the most sense, but even this one is kinda slow on the development part.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 26, 2009)

Hikui said:


> It's different in both instances. You said it was the same because Sakura had told Naruto that before, I disagree. Both instances are different, and try to convey different situations.
> 
> And what does Naruto cheering her up in chapter 301 has to do with anything? And in which chapter was she feeling hyped? I'm confused, so I can't understand your point fully, sorry. Maybe manga panels would help.



No, they aren't different.  It's them encouraging one another and not giving up.   And Chapter 301, it was Sakura telling Naruto, not Naruto to Sakura.   and she did it again in Chapter 310.

Why Naruto's arm was bandaged?  Because he used the FRS.   Which came about of his Wind Training in order to become stronger to bring back Sasuke.

And what chapter she was feeling hyped, I already told you.  Chapter 298.



Hikui said:


> And FYI, if she felt guilty because Naruto was bearing all the burden by himself it's because she felt she wasn't helping that translates in a feeling of uselessness.



If that was the case, then Sakura would not have asked Yamato to teach her the Kyuubi Restraining Technique.  And Yamato would not have talked about her feelings for Naruto. 



Hikui said:


> I'll ignore the attack.



That wasn't an attack, it was a compliment.  



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And just so you know, most if not all HaruHina shippers think Naruto will not suddenly develop romantic feelings for her out of the blue, just so you know.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Perhaps, but certain people within your fandom have given that impression to the majority of the Naruto fanbase.   And nobody corrected them.






Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> *Would Naruto reject Hinata?* No. And he will see how she is doing. Of the first things he thinks once he comes back to action is her well being, he will see if she's okay.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto already knows Hinata is okay.  He sensed her with Sennin Mode prior to fighting Pain.  As I said he probably would come over, but I seriously doubt Kishimoto is going to do it.   There more important things do deal with.






Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And you're claiming NaruHina doesn't have shock value? Really? As a NaruHina shipper myself, even when I knew the confession needed to be done, didn't see it coming. On a personal level, the only ship I happen to think that has shock value is SasuSaku as they haven't interacted as of yet. NaruSaku....well, I wouldn't dare to say it would be unexpected if they happen. It would be sort of plain to me, but that's personal opinion (that I'm not going to debate).




*Spoiler*: __ 



Everyone was seeing that confession coming for years, and everyone was wondering when it was going to happen.  The only thing that was shocking is that it finally happened and Kishimoto did it where Hinata nearly got killed.  So in short, it wasn't the confession itself, but how it came about.

The only things that would be shock worthy for SasuSaku is Sasuke requiting.  Because many expect Sakura to continue like nothing happened.

For NaruSaku, well for us we know if Sakura requits Naruto's love is not going to be as shocking as much as those who were opposed to the pairing.  






Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Pretty plain, especially for a rich girl.  

But we shall see.   I really don't expect anything major to happen between Naruto and Hinata from here on out.  It's all going to shift to the action.


----------



## Afalstein (May 26, 2009)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> You articulated it perfectly, naruto's feelings for sakura stem from relation. Naruto too wishes to be acknowledged, to become hokage. Has this become any less true through the story's progression?
> I don't think I need to elaborate.
> 
> So we've established his feelings stand then?
> ...



A good point.  But while pursuing Sakura has always been a goal of Naruto's, it was never a lifetime goal of his, like acheiving Hokage was.  He's never said, to anyone or even to himself, "I will definitely marry Sakura-chan no matter what."  Recall that romance is not a big thing with Kishi.  With Naruto it is much the same, romantic relationships do not play a big role in his character.  

That said, Naruto _giving up_ on Sakura would be out of character, I agree.  Giving up implies a sense of hopelessness that is alien to his character. To look at it that way would imply that Naruto is simply taking Hinata because he can't get Sakura, which no one on either side would agree with.  But moving to Hinata is not necessarily giving up, it's more like moving on to a more worthy goal.  Not implying that Hinata is a better person than Sakura, just that it would be a better relationship.  (Which I don't intend to argue.  Questions of worth are incredibly slippery)



Let'sFightingLove said:


> And finally,
> 
> Hinata -> Naruto -> Sakura -> Sasuke
> 
> ...



Glad to know you are honest, at the very least.

For the time being, yes, you are technically correct that Hinata loves Naruto and Naruto loves Sakura.  For the time being, however, you are also technically incorrect that Sakura loves Naruto, as your own graph shows.  Sakura is definitely learning to respect Naruto and perhaps feel even more, but if she is in love she doesn't even know herself yet.  Sai had to trick her to get out as much as he did, and she certainly hasn't started pursuing Naruto or even gently encouraging him.

So for the time being, all we can talk about are future possibilities. And how present events point to those possibilities.  Your own post contains many predictions about the future, based on information from the present.  The burden of proof is upon both of us.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 26, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Recall that romance is not a big thing with Kishi.  With Naruto it is much the same, romantic relationships do not play a big role in his character.



PERFECT!

I agree completely. Which is why I tie Naruto and Sakura's relationship into the story, regardless of romantic notions.



Afalstein said:


> A good point. But while pursuing Sakura has always been a goal of Naruto's, it was *never a lifetime goal of his*, like acheiving Hokage was.



Touche. Now to tip the scales in my favour;

Here Kisame is wondering why Itachi ran from Jiraiya
Here Kisame is wondering why Itachi ran from Jiraiya
Here Kisame is wondering why Itachi ran from Jiraiya

Naruto's devotion for Sakura's happiness is however.



Afalstein said:


> That said, Naruto _giving up_ on Sakura would be out of character, I agree.  Giving up implies a sense of hopelessness that is alien to his character. To look at it that way would imply that Naruto is simply taking Hinata because he can't get Sakura, which no one on either side would agree with.  But moving to Hinata is not necessarily giving up, *it's more like moving on to a more worthy goal*.  Not implying that Hinata is a better person than Sakura, just that it would be a better relationship.  (Which I don't intend to argue.  Questions of worth are incredibly slippery)



The graph happens to disagree. Hinata was never Naruto's goal, and as of now, we've yet to see any revelations or any reasoning to your impression. 



Afalstein said:


> For the time being, yes, you are technically correct that Hinata loves Naruto and Naruto loves Sakura.  For the time being, however, *you are also technically incorrect that Sakura loves Naruto, as your own graph shows*.  Sakura is definitely learning to respect Naruto and perhaps feel even more, but if she is in love she doesn't even know herself yet.  Sai had to trick her to get out as much as he did, and she certainly hasn't started pursuing Naruto or even gently encouraging him.



Never said she did. 

And truthfully, as of now the manga has yet to prove otherwise.

However, development is a gradual trek that makes sense for her character once you consider it. This may be a leap of faith, but it's based on the story's progression.



Afalstein said:


> So for the time being, all we can talk about are future possibilities. And how present events point to those possibilities.  Your own post contains many predictions about the future, based on information from the present.  The burden of proof is upon both of us.



I'm abiding by the manga, I'm simply in discordance with your opinion in regards to the story's interpretation.


----------



## Forlong (May 27, 2009)

ShayCaramelldansen said:


> Ok I believe narutoXHinata should be together sasuke and saukra I really dont care who they be with and the reason I choose narutoXHinata is because Saukra treats naruto so badly and Hinata LOVES naruto Now I really didnt care about sasuke and saukra until I played naruto utilmate ninja3 the only thing Saukra wants is for sasuke to be ok the only thing hinata wants is for him to smile when naruto trys to be nice to saukra it PUNCH IN THE FACE CHA! Hinata helps naruto as much as she cans how is punching naruto go in to loving him?


Punctuastion, please.  Don't draw anything from NUN3, it's not accurate.  Sakura wants a *lot* more than for Sasuke to be okay.  And in the anime, she's punched Naruto a grand total of five times.



Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm not so sure.  Naruto is pretty stupid. 






XXXTurkey said:


> But what's worse is the part of your statement that i bolded.  You're using "evidence" that is tenous at best.  We have *no idea* what Yamato was talking about in chapter 297 because *he didn't finish his sentence*.  I'll say it again, you're using unsupported and ambiguous "evidence" to back up more unsupported and ambigous "evidence".  And that is 99% of what NaruSaku is built on...


NaruHina is build on even sandier ground.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto only showed the _slightest_ hint that he might feel "that way" about Hinata like 2 chapters ago.






XXXTurkey said:


> And if it truly was romance then why is "the fact it is interrupted" evidence?  Sakura isn't bothered in any way by either Sai or Kakashi doing it for her.  Surely if she did it with romantic intent there would be more of a reaction fromm her?  This is why i say that such a moment needs follow up.  Because without it the scene is *completely* ambiguous in terms of romance.


Yeah, she should be thinking about that...
...DURRING A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION!?




XXXTurkey said:


> And Sakura's "expressions" are really neither here nor there.  How can you tell from an expression when someone is attracted to someone else?



Are you serious!?  How do you think people figure out someone is on love in real life and fiction?  Magic?  Half of human communication is visual.  Those looks speak volumes.



XXXTurkey said:


> Tell me, how many panels has Yamato been in with Sakura by that point?  It was twelve chapters and at a guess a couple of days at most.  If we take it as read that Yamato means Sakura loves Naruto then he would be basing that on what?  48 hourse of interaction?  Less?


So, if Kakashi was the one that said it, you would pay attention?



XXXTurkey said:


> So why couldn't the sentence end with "In reality you *do enough for Naruto as it is*"?  Yamato isn't repeating himself and would have been addressing something that she is evidently exhibiting and has comtemplated, even in part one.


Thank you for at least _trying_ to proove Yamato was about to say something else.  The fact that it went interupted says (plot-wise) that her feelings are deeper than just friendship.



XXXTurkey said:


> As oppose to so called "romantic" feelings that Sakura herself has not exhibited or contemplated at any time.



*Spoiler*: __ 



You're okay with waiting nearly 400 chapters for the first true-blue NaruHina moment, and pages of NaruSaku moments don't make that pairing even slightly possible?







XXXTurkey said:


> No.  The context has *never* been love and *really* wasn't in that scene.  The context has been Sakura's sense of worth to the team.  Something she actually admitted in that scene and something which was a main ingredient in her desire to improve.  Back in part 1 she said she wanted to be useful to Naruto and Sasuke.  You're making it unneccessarily complicated and attempting to introduce themes that just aren't there.  Look at the bolded stuff. Strong feelings aren't the same as love in Sakura's case because they've never been portrayed as such.  Think about it.


I didn't see her meantion Sasuke, or Kakashi, or Sai, or Yamato.  All she cared about at that moment was Naruto.  Gee, how could I draw romantic implications from that? 



Buzz Killington said:


> Well, the heiress to the Hyuuga Clan would be a perfect match for Naruto, especially if he becomes Hokage. If Hiashi wanted his daughter to marry someone strong and powerful, who better than the Hokage, and son of a previous Hokage? Any children they have would then be descended from two Hokages, become the next heir to the Hyuuga clan, switch between power attacks and Gentle Fist at will, and have massive amounts of chakra as well as the Byakugan. Not a bad scenario, if you ask me.



Let's leave the polotics out of it.


----------



## Forlong (May 27, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> More to the point, though, NaruHina is easy to make fun of, because there's a great deal of opportunity for comic relief.  The anime made especial use of this, by having Hinata faint all the time.  Hilarious stuff, and pretty cute, but I think the only time it happens in the manga is when Naruto comes back to the village and Hinata sees him for the first time in a couple years.


That was the day she missed lunch. 



AznUchihaChick said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, first off:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto going 1tail because of Sasuke was _before_ Jiraiya f***ed up the seal.  Nice work, Pervy-Sage.



And secondly: show me evidence that Naruto would risk his life just to make Sasuke happy.



Afalstein said:


> And even Sakura's development is in doubt.  People have argued that despite Sakura's professed autonomy in Part II, she still pretty much has had to rely on Naruto or others for the entire manga.  The only major villian she's defeated is Sasori, and that was with Elder Chouji's help.  Many people argue that until she has truly faced up to and defeated a threat on her own, she hasn't really grown up.


I wouldn't call what that old lady did "help".  All she did was one screw up after another while Sakura did all the _real_ work.  I am annoyed by the lake of limelight on Sakura.


----------



## Amai106 (May 27, 2009)

man, for all you people that say naruto and hinata are growing closer together 

1st: when have they ever been together,u people act like you create these scenes in your mind of them hanging out together or having any romantic moments together.srry but whAT you  want to think doesnt really matter.its like you think they've been together 24/7.chill out!

also hinata knows very little about naruto and vise versa. are yall that scared of narusaku happening that you make up scenes of them together so you think it might happen?>.<!


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 28, 2009)

Amai106 said:


> man, for all you people that say naruto and hinata are growing closer together
> 
> 1st: when have they ever been together,u people act like you create these scenes in your mind of them hanging out together or having any romantic moments together.srry but whAT you  want to think doesnt really matter.its like you think they've been together 24/7.chill out!
> 
> also hinata knows very little about naruto and vise versa. are yall that scared of narusaku happening that you make up scenes of them together so you think it might happen?>.<!



First off, what we post here must be canon evidence, otherwise we'd be breaking the rules. No one here is going to post make-believe scenes that never happened in the original manga because that isn't considered canon evidence. What we're doing here is simply interpreting the scenes from what was shown in the original manga. Both sides do it.

I'm pretty sure Hinata is one of the few people who truly understands Naruto.  She had been watching him for many years, and she relates to him in many ways.
And you shouldn't get all paranoid(if you are) into thinking Naruhina fans are scared. I don't see Naruhina and Narusaku as anything to worry about at all.


----------



## Kage (May 28, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Wow, first off:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



you should provide evidence of the same first  

contrary to a ridiculously high popular belief PoaL doesn't mean naruto's most important reason for bringing back sasuke revolves around _just_ making sakura happy. VoTE should be more then enough to annihilate such thoughts.



> I wouldn't call what that old lady did "help".  All she did was one screw up after another while Sakura did all the _real_ work.  I am annoyed by the lake of limelight on Sakura.


really? sakura would be nice and dead if all the old lady did was "screw up" 
i think your forgetting who was the _puppet_ and who was the _puppeteer_ for the majority of that fight


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 28, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Wow, first off:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



What he's doing at this very moment would prove that woulden't it? I mean...i belive in the POALT NS implications just fine..but when push comes to shove Naruto would probably do as much for Sasuke so that he's okay, why do you think he's chasing him around so much, for Sakura?  Well...that is partially the reason, but beyond her sake and his own piece of mind, they're doing it for Sasuke's own sake.



> I wouldn't call what that old lady did "help".  All she did was one screw up after another while Sakura did all the _real_ work.  I am annoyed by the lake of limelight on Sakura.



Chiyo helped in the battle just as much as Sakura did, it was a team effort. This does not detract from either one because they both helped out equally.


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 28, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Wow, first off:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto: I want to be the wind to Sasuke's fire 
Naruto: Sasuke...what are you doing now...are you okay?

You seriously are playing with fire if you bring up NaruSaku vs. SasuNaru.

Naruto has said more for Sasuke than anyone else in the entire manga. He said he will do anything to save Sasuke numerous times, starting from bringing the latter out of the darkness.

For Sasuke's happiness and well-being. Not only Naruto wants his acknowledgment above any others and post-poning his training for hokage, he is suffering by his absence in an explicit manner


----------



## ButterflyGod (May 28, 2009)

Evidence that Naruto wants to make Sasuke happy... Hmm... The entire manga isn't enough proof?

Naruto worries about Sasuke's well-being (when he reinterates about the body-snatching plan, when he lays on his bed wondering if Sasuke is okay), he defends him vigorously against anyone who badmouths him (Sai), and has been very proactive about bringing him home again. He trains hard to get strong enough so he can drag Sasuke home and get him out of the phychologically bad environment he's put himself in. Now why would he do that? Why would he waste all that time on someone who has done everything but give him the finger? Because he loves that duckbutt head, that's why. He sees Sasuke as his brother, so I ask you, if you saw your brother in with a bad crowd and ruining his own life, would you just stand idly by and watch? You love your brother, right? Imagine if Sasuke were on heroin, was out of control, about to OD and needed someone to cut him off. You can bet a shiny new penny Naruto would be the first one on the scene to do just that.

^This is why I think there really isn't much of a chance for NaruSaku in terms of the whole deep-closeness-soul-mates-devotion factor. Naruto only goes "Sakura-chan!" when she passes in front of his vision or is known to be in danger. Sasuke seems to be on his mind 24/7 in front of his vision and out of it. I'm not arguing for romantic NaruSasu because that's not how the bond is seen between the boys (though others may have their yaoi fantasies). I'm simply saying, there's just more going on there on an emotional level. No pairing involving Naruto or Sasuke will ever tantamount to the kind of connection these two share with each other. They can't even touch it.


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 28, 2009)

This isnt exactly the place to start up this kind of debate guys..but i've got something to say first 


*Spoiler*: __ 





NaruSasu is indeed the nost emphasized and arguably the most powerful bond of the series. What i disagree with, is the notion that this has to take away from any possible feelings...for Sakura that he may have, by presumably making them less serious or otherwise. 

Naruto values all of his bonds,and even though he's always had Sasuke at the forefront of his mind to be acknowledged by (and earlier on to surpass), he's also shown..that he's wanted acknowledgment from Sakura for a long while as well. It may not be presented in the same way as the NaruSasu bond but its still there, and that's something one should take into account.

On a personal level i can't distinguish between the two bonds, they've got the same kind of ambiguity and mutual development that makes a strong relationship. And being the 3 major characters who were introduced in team 7, makes it all the harder to distinguish Naruto's feelings in regards to the two of them (not to mistake that same thing for their own relations). But i just figured i'd put it out there that underestimating Naruto's feelings in regards to the both of them..is taking away from his credibility, seeing as how they besides iruka, and his foster parents are probably the most intimate precious people's he's got. This is just my view, and i won't force it on anyone but that's how it goes


----------



## Forlong (May 28, 2009)

kageneko said:


> you should provide evidence of the same first
> 
> contrary to a ridiculously high popular belief PoaL doesn't mean naruto's most important reason for bringing back sasuke revolves around _just_ making sakura happy. VoTE should be more then enough to annihilate such thoughts.


Enough with the acronyms.  What do "PoaL" and "VoTE" stand for?  I'm not responding to this until you do.



kageneko said:


> really? sakura would be nice and dead if all the old lady did was "screw up"
> i think your forgetting who was the _puppet_ and who was the _puppeteer_ for the majority of that fight


1: I was kidding arround.
2: Sakura's usefulness is not the point of this thread.
3: If you still insist, just reread chapters 264-273 (I think that's the whole battle).



ButterflyGod said:


> Evidence that Naruto wants to make Sasuke happy... Hmm... The entire manga isn't enough proof?



Has everyone missed the point completely?  Naruto doesn't want Sasuke to be happy.  He wants to bring Sasuke back, because it's what's *good* for him.  NaruSasu and SakuSasu shippers may say that the desire of either is romantic in nature, that is deffinately not the case (not for Naruto).  It's more like how a mom and dad would treat a child.

When Sasuke comes back, I think Naruto and Sakura are going to be more like his parrents than his teammates.  He's such a child.

Could Sakura still love him?  Possibly, but I seriously doubt it.


----------



## Hikui (May 28, 2009)

I'm replying to Tyrannos late again. 



Tyrannos said:


> No, they aren't different.  It's them encouraging one another and not giving up.   And Chapter 301, it was Sakura telling Naruto, not Naruto to Sakura.   and she did it again in Chapter 310.
> 
> Why Naruto's arm was bandaged?  Because he used the FRS.   Which came about of his Wind Training in order to become stronger to bring back Sasuke.
> 
> And what chapter she was feeling hyped, I already told you.  Chapter 298.



I'll try to convey what I understand, I'm getting mixed all this chapters you're pointing out. *goes to check*

Re-read chapter 298, I see Naruto pumped up before going unconscious I don't see Sakura pumped but worried. 

And she did say they're were doing it together, in both chapters 301 and 310, exactly my point.

Now on what I've been trying to say about this. We go back to 297 on which Sakura says "I can only do the dumbest things for Naruto", as in she feels guilty because Naruto is doing all the work in bringing Sasuke back and she feelings like she does nothing in comparison with everything Naruto has done for her. Then Yamato says that it's feelings what matter whatever that means (we'll leave that aside). 

Then we have chapters 301 and 310, in which Sakura tells Naruto he isn't alone and that they're "both" bringing Sasuke back together, which can be tied back to 297 where she "only did dumb things for him" and now she tells him "I'm here, I WILL help". 

And the the feeding scene in 343, this time mentions Naruto telling Sakura "it's like we're getting closer to Sasuke". Naruto acknowledging that made Sakura feel good, and she decides to do something nice for him that he would enjoy (and needs the help). 

This is what I've meant all along. Now, you still have failed to explain me how all this might have a romantic motivation. You could use the complete example, but I'm particularly interested in how the flashback in 343 and "sakura's shock" in the flashback after Naruto's statement of Sasuke means it's romantic. Thanks. 



Tyrannos said:


> If that was the case, then Sakura would not have asked Yamato to teach her the Kyuubi Restraining Technique.  And Yamato would not have talked about her feelings for Naruto.


If she feels useless, then of course she would try not to feel useless. It is only logical that she would ask Yamato about the technique since it would mean she could actually help. Sakura's talking about actions, and Yamato telling her "it's feelings what counts" is logical too, as in you're not completely useless since you care about Naruto and he appreciates it and gives him moral support.  



Tyrannos said:


> That wasn't an attack, it was a compliment.


I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand the wording. Peace. 




Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but certain people within your fandom have given that impression to the majority of the Naruto fanbase.   And nobody corrected them.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I loled at my own typo.  And well, all pairings give a bad impression to most of the Naruto fanbase. I can particularly say taht before getting in this thread I had a very bad impression of the NaruSaku fanbase. But hey, it's only normal since we only see bad stuff on the other. So, I try to be civil. 







Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Naruto already knows Hinata is okay.  He sensed her with Sennin Mode prior to fighting Pain.  As I said he probably would come over, but I seriously doubt Kishimoto is going to do it.   There more important things do deal with.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, he knows she's alive. But since Naruto has no idea of what is happening next is only logical that he goes to check out how she's doing (and Sakura and the village). 







Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I guess. I'm just saying. Or are you not going to tell me that a considerable portion of the fanbase claimed she only felt admiration, or that she wouldn't confess/get over Naruto over timeskip or whatever? And yeah, the way he went on about it was the most surprising thing.






Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It's all about personal opinion. Kishimoto said he wanted Hinata to be cute, and that he's opinion of cute (in a ninja world)...some like it osme don't, it's life. 

And if it shifts immediately to action, I could cope with that too. It could happen, and helps him drag out the 'final pairing' whatever that is.




This thread has been slow. :amazed


----------



## kumiko2sweet (May 28, 2009)

Kewl! A debate! 

but may I ask...? 
how did narusasu come up in a debate about narusaku/sasusaku/naruhina thread?

it's just confusing how another couple cam up..


----------



## izzyisozaki (May 28, 2009)

@Forlong- Naruto wants to save Sasuke from his loneliness, cos Naruto felt like his friend, and will not let Sasuke choose the darkness cos he knows what it's like  that is why the fans will say he wants to make him happy just as much as Sakura.


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## Inuhanyou (May 28, 2009)

syprodragon said:


> I don't think Naruto is mature or smart enough to understand the complete and utter compromise of his feelings for Sakura and his bond with Sasuke, he doesn't make a big deal out of Sakura to begin with and by his standards he puts Sasuke above her through all things he must fufill in is life. Sakura is just a fucking gag of his that is barely comic relief.
> 
> This is the only thing that Naruto takes seriously. He doesn't make and effort trying to prove his worth to Sakura, he indirectly finds the means to gain Sakura's respect. Yeah, thats not true. If it were, he wouldn't have been selfish about it when he henged as Sasuke to make her feel bad about him to get her to like him. It's never there as a individual theme like Naruto and Gaara. Naruto and Sakura's bond has got to be the most exxageratted bond through out the Naruto fandom. Sakura with Sasuke influence found herself to respect Naruto all by her lonesome, Naruto did nothing directly to change that.
> 
> Lets see, Naruto sees Sasuke as a rival, brother, and teammate and a person to be acknowledged by. Sasuke sees Naruto as a equal and a indirect brother and rival also a main part of him. Sakura sees Sasuke as a love and a lost bond, she sees Naruto as a friend, comrade and a loved one. But heres the thing, she doesn't revolve around their stories as much as they do with each other. Therefore her bond with them is not as mutual. But it's how Naruto acts with them than how he feels with them. SO far, Naruto has done nothing but protect and oggle over Sakura in a comedic sense like a fanboy. He hasn't done a single permenant thing over Sakura's character for her own sake. With Sasuke it's so much more.




I aint gonna respond to your propaganda with this one jizz..that was just my view on the Sasunaru/NaruSaku subject..if your hellbent on forcin NS down just because, that's your prerogative as well but i aint botherin in this instance.


----------



## Forlong (May 28, 2009)

Hikui said:


> And the the feeding scene in 343, this time mentions Naruto telling Sakura "it's like we're getting closer to Sasuke". Naruto acknowledging that made Sakura feel good, and she decides to do something nice for him that he would enjoy (and needs the help).


That kind of makes Sakura sound like a cock-tease.   I know you didn't mean for her to look that way.



Hikui said:


> This thread has been slow. :amazed


It's because I went on vacation.  This thread can't go on without me.



syprodragon said:


> I don't think Naruto is mature or smart enough to understand the complete and utter compromise of his feelings for Sakura and his bond with Sasuke, he doesn't make a big deal out of Sakura to begin with and by his standards he puts Sasuke above her through all things he must fufill in is life. Sakura is just a fucking gag of his that is barely comic relief.


Since Sakura hasn't left the village on a quest for revenge, you can hardly compare Naruto's relationship with Sasuke to his relationship with Sakura.



syprodragon said:


> This is the only thing that Naruto takes seriously. He doesn't make and effort trying to prove his worth to Sakura, he indirectly finds the means to gain Sakura's respect. Yeah, thats not true. If it were, he wouldn't have been selfish about it when he henged as Sasuke to make her feel bad about him to get her to like him. It's never there as a individual theme like Naruto and Gaara. *Naruto and Sakura's bond has got to be the most exxageratted bond through out the Naruto fandom.* Sakura with Sasuke influence found herself to respect Naruto all by her lonesome, Naruto did nothing directly to change that.


Naruto no longer has to proove his worth to Sakura.

Now, about the bold.  Have you even _read_ this thread?  Have you heard people talk about Hinata's relationship with Naruto?  Doesn't look like it. 



syprodragon said:


> Lets see, Naruto sees Sasuke as a rival, brother, and teammate and a person to be acknowledged by. Sasuke sees Naruto as a equal and a indirect brother and rival also a main part of him. Sakura sees Sasuke as a love and a lost bond, she sees Naruto as a friend, comrade and a loved one. But heres the thing, she doesn't revolve around their stories as much as they do with each other. Therefore her bond with them is not as mutual. But it's how Naruto acts with them than how he feels with them. SO far, Naruto has done nothing but protect and oggle over Sakura in a comedic sense like a fanboy. He hasn't done a single permenant thing over Sakura's character for her own sake. With Sasuke it's so much more.



I'll only ask this once: What manga are you reading?  'Cause is sure ain't Naruto.

Naruto has given Sakura plenty of compliments.  He's also told her not to worry a few times.


----------



## Afalstein (May 28, 2009)

This seems to be forgotten a lot, so I'll post this from the host's beginning post:



halfhearted said:


> *Rules
> 
> 1. This thread is for debating about NaruHina, NaruSaku, and SasuSaku only.
> 
> ...


*

I don't find the debate very interesting to begin with anyway.  Kishi seems to be a fairly typical writer, I sincerely doubt he's going to do anything with SasuNaru.

But as it happens, it doesn't matter because this isn't the place to talk about it.  I believe there IS another thread for this, post there.*


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## Porcelain (May 28, 2009)

NaruHina: Hinata has a crush on Naruto but only a crush.

SasuNaru: They act like brother's they really care for eachother.

NaruSaku: Sakura actually LOVES him.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (May 28, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> What he's doing at this very moment would prove that woulden't it? I mean...i belive in the POALT NS implications just fine..but when push comes to shove Naruto would probably do as much for Sasuke so that he's okay, why do you think he's chasing him around so much, for Sakura?  Well...that is partially the reason, but beyond her sake and his own piece of mind, they're doing it for Sasuke's own sake.



Indeed.

Consider Sasuke the stem, and Sakura a branching factor.




Inuhanyou said:


> Chiyo helped in the battle just as much as Sakura did, it was a team effort. This does not detract from either one because they both helped out equally.



Yes, anything else is poor interpretation. 



izzyisozaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is evident.

However, so is the thread title. 



ButterflyGod said:


> ^This is why I think there really isn't much of a chance for NaruSaku in terms of the whole deep-closeness-soul-mates-devotion factor. Naruto only goes "Sakura-chan!" when she passes in front of his vision or is known to be in danger. Sasuke seems to be on his mind 24/7 in front of his vision and out of it. I'm not arguing for romantic NaruSasu because that's not how the bond is seen between the boys (though others may have their yaoi fantasies). I'm simply saying, there's just more going on there on an emotional level. No pairing involving Naruto or Sasuke will ever tantamount to the kind of connection these two share with each other. They can't even touch it.



This makes no sense, how can you compare a friendship to a romantically inclined relationship?

Would Asuma save Kurenai's life or Shikamaru? That'd be a difficult decision for his character, however, for different reasons. 

In fact, you contradict yourself by claiming Naruto isn't gay. There's no other way your logic would work in this case. 



Temari141 said:


> None of those dumb pairings make sence.
> 
> Naruhina:
> Hinata has a crush on Naruto and he doesn't really know she exists and therefore it is "canon".
> ...



Agreed. 

That's why I follow the story, not foolish idealism. 

@syprodragon, I take NaruHina in the same liking as your posts, low quality works of fiction.


----------



## Kage (May 28, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Enough with the acronyms.  What do "PoaL" and "VoTE" stand for?  I'm not responding to this until you do.



"Valley Of the End" and "Promise of a lifetime" how you got this far without really knowing either i'll never know.




> 1: I was kidding arround.
> 2: Sakura's usefulness is not the point of this thread.
> 3: If you still insist, just reread chapters 264-273 (I think that's the whole battle).



orly
then why did you bring it up
no. you need to re-read it if you really think chiyo was a worthless screw up.



> Has everyone missed the point completely?  Naruto doesn't want Sasuke to be happy.  He wants to bring Sasuke back, because it's what's *good* for him.



...i'm not going to dignify this with a proper response  not that you'll listen anyway since others have already covered it. plus it's off-topic hence why i didn't bother to go to deep into it in the first place


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 28, 2009)

Hyuga Hinata said:


> NaruHina: Hinata has a crush on Naruto but only a crush.
> 
> SasuNaru: They act like brother's they really care for eachother.
> 
> NaruSaku: Sakura actually LOVES him.



ch. 437:

_"Because I *love* you Naruto-kun"_- Hyuuga Hinata

It's written in words


----------



## mystic868 (May 29, 2009)

Haha I told you that Kakashi and Shizune will survive and now who was right?


----------



## alangm89 (May 29, 2009)

i agree with alot of point in this form on both sides personaly im more of a naruhina person but i see narusaku happening more.


*Spoiler*: __ 



When Hinata did her confession about her love for naruto it opened the possiblty of those to hooking up later on.
on the other hand i see narusaku more of a possiblty because she from my point of view which is my interprotation of the events in the manga and the shows that sakura has feelings for naruto because she gives little hints her self to him for 1 was when they first best up post time skip and blushed saying dont i look grown up and then got made when he said up for me the interportation of this was he showing off or trying too and she is no longer 12 now and no longer outbursty when it comes to her fealings any more at least thats what i can see and when people say that she wasnt showing he fealings to him when she ran at naruto when he was in his KN4 form and it was just reckless from i would have to say that its debatable on her showing her fealings then or not however, whether it was wreckless or not i dont think so but i wont get into that here. and then when Sakura asked yamato on how to seal away the fox's cloak and he said that he cant teach her because only he can do it she got very sad because she cant help naruto in any major way and yamato said its not how much you do for him but you fealings for him and she looked at him like how did you know/find out or what ever.

and so far i havent seen her say once or even think (in post time skip)that i need sasuke to come back to me i have always seen come back to us.


 but then again some of my facts are a little off since i havent slept in 2 days and my memory is shot.
also sorry for spelling and punctuation.


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## JERITROLL (May 29, 2009)

alangm89 said:


> i agree with alot of point in this form on both sides personaly im more of a naruhina person but i see narusaku happening more.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Heh, hard to read because of a few missing words and punctuations (periods are your friend, my friend!), but otherwise, I agree.



BruceLeefan said:


> ch. 437:
> 
> _"Because I *love* you Naruto-kun"_- Hyuuga Hinata
> 
> It's written in words



Sakura said the same thing to Sasuke, and Naruto has said he likes Sakura in that manner back in Chapter 3. Something is going to break eventually, and SasuSaku clearly shows that a confession means jack squat. Actions speak louder than words anyway, and it has to come from both sides. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't think Naruto appreciates that Hinata was suiciding for him at all.  But I also think that Hinata's placing of Naruto on a pedistool is also unhealthy, so... Just interpretation right there.




Keep this in mind: Hinata may well love Naruto, but that doesn't mean that it's real or going to be reciprocated.


----------



## AiSakuraHana (May 29, 2009)

Hyuga Hinata said:


> NaruHina: Hinata has a crush on Naruto but only a crush.
> 
> SasuNaru: They act like brother's they really care for eachother.
> 
> NaruSaku: Sakura actually LOVES him.



_Back to the battlefield_
You cant say that hinatas crush is just a crush, and not saying that Narutos crush is just a crush.
Yes Sakura loves Naruto, but as a Brother/friend. And Naruto and Sakuras bond is strong, because they have the same goal, Finding Sasuke. They Bond is not Love/Romance. Its a very strong Friendship. 

Why is Sakuras and Hinatas love not real and and selfish, when Narutos love is not?
(Please no attacks on me  )


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 29, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> Sakura said the same thing to Sasuke, and Naruto has said he likes Sakura in that manner back in Chapter 3. Something is going to break eventually, and SasuSaku clearly shows that a confession means jack squat. Actions speak louder than words anyway, and it has to come from both sides.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



IMHO I don't think Naruhina will have the same outcome as Sasusaku in part 1. Naruto and Sasuke may share similar pain, but they are two very different people. Sasuke, after meeting Itachi, was focused more on pursuing his goal, than to care what other people feel about him. In other words, he put his goal over everything in his life, he didn't care what happened to him, or what other people felt, he just wanted to accomplish his goal.This perfectly explains why Sasuke rejected Sakura in part 1, his goal came first, and other people would get in his way.Is Sasuke still the same today even after completing his goal? We don't know.
Naruto on the other hand, puts his friends and their feelings over his own.He deeply cares about all of his comrades and would gladly put his life on the line to save them.It would seem highly unlikely that he would pick his own feelings over other people's feelings,because being selfish isn't what Naruto is like.


----------



## Kage (May 29, 2009)

> BruceLeefan said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO I don't think Naruhina will have the same outcome as Sasusaku in part 1. Naruto and Sasuke may share similar pain, but they are two very different people. Sasuke, after meeting Itachi, was focused more on pursuing his goal, than to care what other people feel about him. In other words, he put his goal over everything in his life, he didn't care what happened to him, or what other people felt, he just wanted to accomplish his goal.This perfectly explains why Sasuke rejected Sakura in part 1, his goal came first, and other people would get in his way.Is Sasuke still the same today even after completing his goal? We don't know
> ...


----------



## alangm89 (May 29, 2009)

The only selfish thing Naruto really wants is to be hokkage for RESPECT.
other then that he puts others infront of him self.


----------



## Chippy (May 29, 2009)

I'm pretty sure it's less for respect and acknowledgement now as it is his desire to protect Konoha and everyone.

Yes, Naruto is a selfless guy, but if he doesn't fall for Hinata, he won't make himself go with her. If he does fall in love with her great, no problem, but if his feelings don't change I doubt he, or she, would like it out of pity.


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 29, 2009)

...It's so hard explain something without sounding too direct or overthetop  Anyway...:


kageneko said:


> .
> you're forgetting the other half of sasuke's reason for rejecting sakura and that's because he just wasn't interested at all. this is also something him and naruto have in common considering naruto has never once expressed an interest in hinata romantically, sasuke was the same. he made that _very_ clear even _before_ firmly deciding on revenge.


But Naruto does respect Hinata in the terms of strength,will power and determination.Similar aspects Naruto has himself.They relate to each other I guess.


kageneko said:


> .
> do you understand the situation your setting naruto up for? in order for him to be considered selfless because it's unlike him to be otherwise he has to settle for something he may not even want but can't turn down because he puts the feelings of others above his own. while it's true he does tend to think of others first i really don't see how _forcing_ himself into a relationship to spare someone's feelings is good for anyone. hinata can't _make_ him fall in love with her if he doesn't want to and it shouldn't be an obligation because otherwise it would just be selfish.
> 
> naruto's not a horrible selfish person. if he can't bring himself to feel the same about her he wouldn't lie to her about it to make her feel better.


Let me ask you this, Has he ever done something where he chose to only favor himself over a person he respects? Hmmm..not that I can recall of. It's Questionable how Naruto feels about her right now. Only time will tell.


----------



## Crackers (May 29, 2009)

AiSakuraHana said:


> Yes Sakura loves Naruto, but as a Brother/friend. And Naruto and Sakuras bond is strong, because they have the same goal, Finding Sasuke. They Bond is not Love/Romance. Its a very strong Friendship.


Do you sincerely mean to say that thisor this or even this is all based off a purely sibling or friendly relationship? Clearly, there's a much deeper and far more intimate bond that Naruto and Sakura share than merely one shared between siblings or friends. 

Also, these panels should be more than clear indication that neither Naruto's and Sakura's goals are the same, nor are their intentions. I mean, sure, Sakura wants Sasuke back, but nothing to the extent that Naruto does, especially not to the lengths he's willing to go. Sakura's main problem is whether or not she can properly support her friends, and how little she's managed to do for them. Of course this ties in with her wanting to get Sasuke back because it would mean she'd help "save his life", but that's an entirely different reason than Naruto's, who wants Sasuke back for his own personal benefit and to save himself from countless grief of losing his "brother".


> Why is Sakuras and Hinatas love not real and and selfish, when Narutos love is not?


OK, then, why are Sakura's and Hinata's burning passions for Sasuke and Naruto respectively selfless when the feelings Naruto has been known to hold toward Sakura are selfish? 

Neither girl did anything for the ones they're supposed to be interested in that made a lasting and positive impact in the aftermath of their actions.

*Spoiler*: __ 



No, jumping in to save a boy you're supposed to love, knowing very well there is nothing you can do to save him and then proceed to try and kill yourself isn't something positive. Just because Hinata confessed doesn't mean her intentions were admirable and romantic. 

I'm probably going to die from neg reps and flames, but oh well


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## Kage (May 30, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> But Naruto does respect Hinata in the terms of strength,will power and determination.Similar aspects Naruto has himself.They relate to each other I guess.


naruto respects a lot of people for the same reasons. hinata is not special in this regard. the only thing she has on others is that she confessed and all the good that will do if naruto doesn't respond favorably.



> Let me ask you this, Has he ever done something where he chose to only favor himself over a person he respects? Hmmm..not that I can recall of. It's Questionable how Naruto feels about her right now. Only time will tell.



naruto has never been put into an emotional situation where he himself has to pretend to be something he's not. he accepted sakura's feelings for sasuke even if it hurt him yes but accepting someone's feelings because it will hurt them if he _doesn't_ is something else entirely. like i said i don't think he's willing to pretend to feel something he doesn't in order to spare someone's feelings. that's not fair to anyone. and yes we don't know the exact impact this has on him but you make it seem as though he has no choice one way or the other despite what he may or may not feel.


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## Terrence Urameshi (May 30, 2009)

Sasuke's probably gonna die, Hinata's probably gonna die, NaruSaku. BAM.


----------



## Tyrannos (May 30, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I'll try to convey what I understand, I'm getting mixed all this chapters you're pointing out. *goes to check*
> 
> Re-read chapter 298, I see Naruto pumped up before going unconscious I don't see Sakura pumped but worried.
> 
> ...


 
Apparently you taking "pumped-up" too literally.   You obviously see Sakura get focused again when Naruto says it's okay.  Naruto's giving her hope that she would soon reunite with Sasuke.

Now with 297, 301-310 as you can see she's not feeling useless.

With Chapter 343, I disagree.  You make like she's doing nice deeds for Naruto, which counteracts what Yamato said about her feelings.   If she was simply doing a nice thing, then why the "shock", why the stool scooting?   Why was she raising her fist in annoyance when Sai interfered?   Why is it NOT a romantic moment when Naruto himself is saying it was?  



Hikui said:


> If she feels useless, then of course she would try not to feel useless. It is only logical that she would ask Yamato about the technique since it would mean she could actually help. Sakura's talking about actions, and Yamato telling her "it's feelings what counts" is logical too, as in you're not completely useless since you care about Naruto and he appreciates it and gives him moral support.



Uh huh, "Feelings".   Sakura's trying to help Naruto, and she's doing it because she cares for him.

And on top of that, the classic interuption moment.   There is nothing else that could justify it's use, twice!



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I loled at my own typo.  And well, all pairings give a bad impression to most of the Naruto fanbase. I can particularly say taht before getting in this thread I had a very bad impression of the NaruSaku fanbase. But hey, it's only normal since we only see bad stuff on the other. So, I try to be civil.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well it's not easy here either when blood boils over.  We are here to logically explain actions in the manga from our pairing's perspective.  And you will quickly learn this is why there is war in the world.   Disagreements via religious views, political, economic, territorial, etc.

To seek common ground and resolution is what's called for.






Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, he knows she's alive. But since Naruto has no idea of what is happening next is only logical that he goes to check out how she's doing (and Sakura and the village).




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well we shall see.  But honestly, I doubt Kishimoto will have him do that, there more important things going on that needs his attention.






Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I guess. I'm just saying. Or are you not going to tell me that a considerable portion of the fanbase claimed she only felt admiration, or that she wouldn't confess/get over Naruto over timeskip or whatever? And yeah, the way he went on about it was the most surprising thing.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well it's a mute point now, she said she loved him.   But you must admit there are characters similar to Hinata in other mangas and anime that reveal their feelings and say it's admiration.  

But NaruHina needs Naruto to requit, and given the events, that doesn't appear likely for a while.






Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well I wouldn't focus too much on Hinata being the only cute one.  After all he intended on Sakura being cute as well.  

Well right now we are going into another lull chapter, so the action shouldn't start for another couple of weeks.   But things are definitely going into high gear now.

In other words, "It's make or break time!"


----------



## AiSakuraHana (May 30, 2009)

KittenLou said:


> Do you sincerely mean to say that thisor this or even this is all based off a purely sibling or friendly relationship? Clearly, there's a much deeper and far more intimate bond that Naruto and Sakura share than merely one shared between siblings or friends.
> 
> Also, these panels should be more than clear indication that neither Naruto's and Sakura's goals are the same, nor are their intentions. I mean, sure, Sakura wants Sasuke back, but nothing to the extent that Naruto does, especially not to the lengths he's willing to go. Sakura's main problem is whether or not she can properly support her friends, and how little she's managed to do for them. Of course this ties in with her wanting to get Sasuke back because it would mean she'd help "save his life", but that's an entirely different reason than Naruto's, who wants Sasuke back for his own personal benefit and to save himself from countless grief of losing his "brother".
> 
> ...



The only thing i see in those pictures are "402 forbibben", But im sure i have seen it all before!  I dont really get where you are going?

----

I havent said anything about Sakura and Hinata not being selfish. I dont see why loving a person and wanna help them tough the shadows are selfish. They dont do it only for them self, they wanna help.
I havent even said that Narutos love are selfish, But having a argument about Hinata and Sakuras love is Selfish, and Narutos not. It make no sense. Being in love is 50 % selfish, but you are also giving love to your love one. And that cant be 100 % selfish.



Terrence Urameshi said:


> Sasuke's probably gonna die, Hinata's probably gonna die, NaruSaku. BAM.



It could be the end of the manga, if sasuke die. And it could destory the plot of the manga. Ohhh yes NaruSaku gonna happen, if Sasuke died, of cooourse! And why should Hinata die? Having a close death again? Could make no sense.
Your argument make me laugh!


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## mystic868 (May 30, 2009)

People were predicting that Naruto manga will have a lot more chapters but according to the last one where Sasuke decided to return to Konoha I think that in about 100 chapters we will have the ending. And as you can see Kishi can suprise us with many things like "massive resurrection" the same goes for pairings - IMO sth unpredictable will happen in this issue.


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## Lizzy644 (May 30, 2009)

I think Sakura starts to lean more toward Naruto in shippuden. They seem so much closer especially with Sai around  Sai seemed to make them even closer personally. They really teamed together agianst him at first lol. And I think she's starting to realize sasuke rele is a jerk. (note that im only up to when Hidan And Kakuzu start comming around)


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## 王志鍵 (May 30, 2009)

kageneko said:


> naruto respects a lot of people for the same reasons. hinata is not special in this regard. the only thing she has on others is that she confessed and all the good that will do if naruto doesn't respond favorably.


Other than all the respect, acknowledgement, care, freindship, and trust shown by all of Naruto's most important people, there is a slight twist that makes Hinata different from all the others. Aside from all the other things I just listed, Hinata was the one who openly showed _deep_ love and affection towards Naruto. Love that Naruto has been longing for his whole life. There is no denying that Hinata is already one of Naruto's most important people,since everyone who has shown all those feelings towards Naruto automatically became important to him. Naruto has only met his father for a few minutes, yet, he is already very important to him.


kageneko said:


> naruto has never been put into an emotional situation where he himself has to pretend to be something he's not. he accepted sakura's feelings for sasuke even if it hurt him yes but accepting someone's feelings because it will hurt them if he _doesn't_ is something else entirely. like i said i don't think he's willing to pretend to feel something he doesn't in order to spare someone's feelings. that's not fair to anyone. and yes we don't know the exact impact this has on him but you make it seem as though he has no choice one way or the other despite what he may or may not feel.


It also wouldn't make sense for Naruto to go with a girl who he knows loves someone else and not him.Naruto has seen the deep feelings Sakura showed towards Sasuke.He knows that Sakura loves Sasuke romantically and not him. Yes it hurt him but he had to accept it.It wouldn't be right to forcefully change the deep feelings a girl has towards another boy to himself instead.

We don't know what he will do just yet, so We'll just have to wait for Naruto's decision in the weeks to come.


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## Afalstein (May 30, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> Sakura said the same thing to Sasuke, and Naruto has said he likes Sakura in that manner back in Chapter 3. Something is going to break eventually, and SasuSaku clearly shows that a confession means jack squat. Actions speak louder than words anyway, and it has to come from both sides.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...





kageneko said:


> > .
> > you're forgetting the other half of sasuke's reason for rejecting sakura and that's because he just wasn't interested at all. this is also something him and naruto have in common considering naruto has never once expressed an interest in hinata romantically, sasuke was the same. he made that _very_ clear even _before_ firmly deciding on revenge.
> >
> > do you understand the situation your setting naruto up for? in order for him to be considered selfless because it's unlike him to be otherwise he has to settle for something he may not even want but can't turn down because he puts the feelings of others above his own. while it's true he does tend to think of others first i really don't see how _forcing_ himself into a relationship to spare someone's feelings is good for anyone. hinata can't _make_ him fall in love with her if he doesn't want to and it shouldn't be an obligation because otherwise it would just be selfish.
> ...


----------



## Forlong (May 30, 2009)

kageneko said:


> contrary to a ridiculously high popular belief PoaL doesn't mean naruto's most important reason for bringing back sasuke revolves around _just_ making sakura happy. VoTE should be more then enough to annihilate such thoughts.


Does that completely negate Naruto's feelings for Sakura?  No.  Even though he wants Sasuke back for his own reasons, when he talks about why he says it's for Sakura.  So, even if that not his only reason, the fact that he says it is important.



kageneko said:


> ...i'm not going to dignify this with a proper response


Then you should just ignor it.



mystic868 said:


> Haha I told you that Kakashi and Shizune will survive and now who was right?


Thanks for the spam. 



BruceLeefan said:


> It also wouldn't make sense for Naruto to go with a girl who he knows loves someone else and not him.Naruto has seen the deep feelings Sakura showed towards Sasuke.He knows that Sakura loves Sasuke romantically and not him. Yes it hurt him but he had to accept it.It wouldn't be right to forcefully change the deep feelings a girl has towards another boy to himself instead.



Problem is that Sakura really had no reason to hold on to her feelings for Sasuke.  He was an ass.  Why does she still want him back then?  Because she still cares about him on a level she's unsure of, and because of Naruto.

It really is interesting that the only time Naruto said a reason he wants to find Sasuke, he said it was for Sakura.  The only time Sakura said a reason for finding Sasuke, she talked about how he's like a brother to Naruto.

Odd how everyone says that they want Sasuke back for themselves, but they don't seem to agree with that statement.

It's been a while since I've done this:
ZARU!


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## Amai106 (May 30, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> It also wouldn't make sense for Naruto to go with a girl who he knows loves someone else and not him.Naruto has seen the deep feelings Sakura showed towards Sasuke.He knows that Sakura loves Sasuke romantically and not him. Yes it hurt him but he had to accept it.It wouldn't be right to forcefully change the deep feelings a girl has towards another boy to himself instead.
> 
> We don't know what he will do just yet, so We'll just have to wait for Naruto's decision in the weeks to come.



after chapter 308,i dont think sakura still has those same feelings for sasuke any more.you think i would want someone that i had  a crush on try to stab me and purposely  try to kill me and still say i like them,i think not.those suposebly deep feelings were shattered a long time ago.naruto never gives up, so why would he give up on sakura....soon sakura will realize that sasuke was no good for her and know that naruto has been there for her all along and like hinata, kiba has been there for her she just hasnt realized it yet. those "deep feelings"  for sasuke are crushed, burned, destroyed, demolished, and finally DEAD!


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## Renxx (May 30, 2009)

Butting in temporarily.


Forlong said:


> Problem is that Sakura really had no reason to hold on to her feelings for Sasuke.  He was an ass.



Saying Sasuke is an ass is _your _opinion, not Sakura's. She has shown she still (at the very least) respects him, even after all he's done. That clearly tells me she doesn't think he's an ass.



> Even though he wants Sasuke back for his own reasons, when he talks about why he says it's for Sakura. So, even if that not his only reason, the fact that he says it is important.





> It really is interesting that the only time Naruto said a reason he wants to find Sasuke, he said it was for Sakura.  The only time Sakura said a reason for finding Sasuke, she talked about how he's like a brother to Naruto.


What manga are you reading, exactly?

Tell me, when has Naruto mentioned he wanted to bring Sasuke back for Sakura in part 2? Never. Not even once. When he 
*Spoiler*: __ 



encountered Itachi, he said he wanted to bring Sasuke back because he was more of a brother to him than Itachi himself (something along those lines)




And I'm out. I really don't see any point in using the same arguments over and over again, when we'll be having some new developments very soon in the manga, that will probably end everything (Sakura's reaction to seeing Sasuke again, Naruto's meeting with Hinata).


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## 王志鍵 (May 30, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Problem is that Sakura really had no reason to hold on to her feelings for Sasuke.  He was an ass.  Why does she still want him back then?  Because she still cares about him on a level she's unsure of, and because of Naruto.
> 
> It really is interesting that the only time Naruto said a reason he wants to find Sasuke, he said it was for Sakura.  The only time Sakura said a reason for finding Sasuke, she talked about how he's like a brother to Naruto.
> 
> ...





Amai106 said:


> after chapter 308,i dont think sakura still has those same feelings for sasuke any more.you think i would want someone that i had  a crush on try to stab me and purposely  try to kill me and still say i like them,i think not.those suposebly deep feelings were shattered a long time ago.naruto never gives up, so why would he give up on sakura....soon sakura will realize that sasuke was no good for her and know that naruto has been there for her all along and like hinata, kiba has been there for her she just hasnt realized it yet. those "deep feelings"  for sasuke are crushed, burned, destroyed, demolished, and finally DEAD!



I wasn't talking about Sakura's feelings. I was talking about Naruto's feelings. The last images implanted in his head about Sasuke and Sakura was the deep affection Sakura showed towards Sasuke.If Sakura did indeed give up on Sasuke (which I highly doubt she did), Naruto wouldn't know about it unless she openly admits it.And That's the problem, he _doesn't_ know.Naruto still thinks Sakura has romantic feelings for Sasuke.Which brings up why it wouldn't make sense for Naruto to go for a girl that loves someone else romantically and not him. It wouldn't be right to forcefully change a girl's feelings directed towards another boy towards himself instead.
Naruto and Sakura still see good in Sasuke, which is why they want to bring him back.
I don't see Sasuke as an "ass" or anything .But, I do see him as a troubled individual suffering from an emotional event that happened in the past.His meeting with Itachi triggered his anger, and that's what caused him to change. Other than trying to bring Sasuke back, Naruto and Sakura also wants to change him back to normal. As normal, I mean before he met Itachi again, because they shared a very close bond before that event happened.

Ex. Would you hate your best friends if they started cussing you out when they were drunk? I wouldn't,since they were drunk afterall.They were not themselves.


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## Rashman (May 30, 2009)

Amai106 said:


> after chapter 308,i dont think sakura still has those same feelings for sasuke any more.you think i would want someone that i had  a crush on try to stab me and purposely  try to kill me and still say i like them,i think not.those suposebly deep feelings were shattered a long time ago.naruto never gives up, so why would he give up on sakura....soon sakura will realize that sasuke was no good for her and know that naruto has been there for her all along and like hinata,* kiba has been there for her she just hasnt realized it yet.* those "deep feelings"  for sasuke are crushed, burned, destroyed, demolished, and finally DEAD!



Your whole arguement was destroyed the moment you said this. i like kibahina and all but please the real reality is that it just doesn't exist. Don't just assume that kiba is in love with hinata just because they are on the same team when kishi has clearly not given kiba romantic feelings for hinata. 

This isn't about your own feelings. it's about sakura's feelings. Sasuke has tried to kill naruto way more than sakura so why doesn't naruto go ahead and say " you know what sasuke? fuck youu!! "?

That is because sasuke a very important person to him and this same reasoning should apply to sakura.


----------



## ButterflyGod (May 30, 2009)

Terrence Urameshi said:


> Sasuke's probably gonna die, Hinata's probably gonna die, NaruSaku. BAM.



Doesn't anyone else besides me find it tragic and pathetic that this implies other characters have to die in order for NaruSaku to happen? That it can't happen without requiring the physical deaths of characters whose only crime is either being the object of another's spoken affections (Sasuke) or having voiced their affections (Hinata)? 

I kind of feel sorry for Sasuke. For a guy who is apparently not interested in Sakura so therefore he shouldn't even be in the way because of this lack of interest, yet he's _still _a threat to NaruSaku. Same goes for Naruto. If he's not interested in Hinata, then she shouldn't be a threat to NaruSaku no matter how Hinata feels about him. If NaruSaku should happen, it should happen because Naruto and Sakura have fallen in love with each other. To say that Sasuke needs to die implies a fear that Sakura continues to love Sasuke. With Naruto, it makes even less sense. He's never shown an interest in Hinata before oh no but he KNOWS now that changes EVERYTHING. You know what maybe it does! We don't know yet so I'm not going to say it either way.

I don't believe NaruSaku is going to happen at all. I don't even like it. BUT for the sake of discussion, if it were to happen other characters shouldn't have to need to die to make it happen. Stating that Sasuke and Hinata need to be removed implies to me a belief Naruto and Sakura's affections for each other have no legs to stand on. It implies Naruto may be able to like Hinata back and that Sakura may still like Sasuke.

I am sure there are more intelligent arguments to support NaruSaku, in fact I know there are because I've read them. I will tell you right now, this is the least logical thing I have heard from any pairing argument. If Kishimoto needs to kill off characters to make two people fall in love, that's pretty lame development in my book. It's not even good writing.


----------



## Kage (May 30, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Other than all the respect, acknowledgement, care, freindship, and trust shown by all of Naruto's most important people, there is a slight twist that makes Hinata different from all the others. Aside from all the other things I just listed, Hinata was the one who openly showed _deep_ love and affection towards Naruto. Love that Naruto has been longing for his whole life. There is no denying that Hinata is already one of Naruto's most important people,since everyone who has shown all those feelings towards Naruto automatically became important to him. Naruto has only met his father for a few minutes, yet, he is already very important to him.


openly showed deep love? if this were the case the confession wouldn't have been so surprising to him. she did no such thing. when naruto was around her she was shy, reserved, strange (in naruto's opinion) _but_ caring and that's what made her one of his important people but _nothing more._ she wasn't giving him anything he didn't find already in people like Iruka and his team. bonds with them and specifically _sasuke_ *is* what he's always longed for in life. he says so himself. assuming her love (or just romantic lubs in general) is what he's always wanted is just that. an _assumption_ because we have actual proof of him admitting it's something else.

people often like to use naruto's loneliness ,desperation for attention and acknowledgment before he was a genin as an excuse to paint him so loved starved and it's annoying. especially when he overcame such not long after becoming a genin and it didn't take the love of some girl to do it.



BruceLeefan said:


> We don't know what he will do just yet, so We'll just have to wait for Naruto's decision in the weeks to come.


agreed. i'll just leave it at that.



Afalstein said:


> The temptation to compare Hinata's confession to Sakura's or even (more plausibly) Lee's, is understandable but flawed for a very simple reason.  Naruto is not Sakura or Sasuke as they appeared in Part I.  Nor is Hinata like Sakura or Lee


this is evident. i simply brought it up because someone else mentioned it. naruto is not sasuke and sakura is not lee vice versa etc...but the one thing they all had in common (the team seven bunch anyway) is that none were interested romantically in their pursuers and that was the only point i was trying to make with that.



Afalstein said:


> Sasuke was acting like a jerk in rejecting Sakura, and he was portrayed as a jerk.  Sakura's confession itself was portrayed very positively, and it was presented as this "last chance" Sasuke has to continue living in the village. His rejection was a negative aspect of his character.


no. sasuke wasn't acting like a jerk he was being completely honest with himself and with sakura. granted he could have gone about it a bit more gently but sakura wasn't helping with her constant prying and badgering. i hate when people make her the victim of circumstance cause of big bad sasuke. _oh please._ he didn't like her that way and he let her know more then once but she continued to pursue him. that would annoy anyone. not to mention she should have been far more understanding considering she had a similar situation with naruto. she had no one to blame for his attitude but herself. 

honestly why are guys considered some sort of asshole if they can't make themselves feel something more for girls they aren't interested in to begin with? *no one should be obligated to return anyone feelings.*

and no sakura's confession was portrayed as anything but. she was willing to leave the village and people she cares about to delude this selfish desire to be with him. she knew very well they weren't very close "you never talk to me and act like you hate me" she knew very well revenge wouldn't make him happy and says so herself but what does she do after she fails to convince him to stay? _she offers to help him with it._ it suddenly wasn't a matter of what would be best for him and his happiness it was about what was best for *her* and her happiness. that confession was desperate, selfish, childish and horribly negative for _sakura's_ character not sasuke.



Afalstein said:


> Except Hinata is not Lee, and her confession was not anything like his.  Lee is constantly ridiculous.  Awesome yes, but ridiculous.  He is continually making vows of passion and fealty, so it was really hard to attach any importance to his confession.  Granted, it was sincere, but the confession was ridiculous and it was meant to be ridiculous.


so in others words we were never meant to take lee's feelings seriously because they were a little too showy despite being very sincere? right. hinata is special because she could only admit hers in the face of impending inevitable doom. very serious.



Afalstein said:


> Of course, as we keep hearing, just because Hinata sincerely loves Naruto doesn't mean Naruto will return her feelings.  This is a good point.  No one is suggesting that Naruto will hitch up with Hinata out of a mere feeling of obligation.


this is the only point of been trying to get across but it's been ignored in favor of 'naruto can't cause he'll be a jerk' 'he respects her too much to let her down' 'he's not sasuke' things like that make it *really* hard to believe people really sincerely think he _won't_ be with her simply because of obligation. 



Forlong said:


> Does that completely negate Naruto's feelings for Sakura?  No.  *Even though he wants Sasuke back for his own reasons, when he talks about why he says it's for Sakura. * So, even if that not his only reason, the fact that he says it is important.


no. when did i imply that?
no he doesn't  clearly you're over inflating it's importance to him.
look i'll even pull in a panel i already brought up in this post that proves my point perfectly. naruto is asked why he wants to bring sasuke back and his answer...gasp! is not sakura!


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## Inuhanyou (May 30, 2009)

kageneko said:


> no. when did i imply that?
> no he doesn't  clearly you're over inflating it's importance to him.
> look i'll even pull in a panel i already brought up in this post that proves my point perfectly. naruto is asked why he wants to bring sasuke back and his answer...gasp! is not sakura!



Remember that this is also a double edged sword. Just because he didn't mention Sakura at that point in time does not mean he's not getting Sasuke back for her as well. Sasuke's own importance to him is center stage of course there no mistake about that, but...its not worth shoving his consideration of her feelings to the wayside in order to point that out. Sakura is..also getting Sasuke back for Naruto's sake and her own..and Sasuke's own..although not nearly to the level of Naruto's dedication of course.

Forlong also was wrong in saying that he's referred to Sakura when saying he'd get Sasuke back, because he's never referred to her when asked by outside sources post timeskip.


----------



## Kage (May 30, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> Remember that this is also a double edged sword. Just because he didn't mention Sakura at that point in time does not mean he's not getting Sasuke back for her as well. Sasuke's own importance to him is center stage of course there no mistake about that, but...its not worth shoving his consideration of her feelings to the wayside in order to point that out.
> 
> Forlong also was wrong in saying that he's referred to Sakura when saying he'd get Sasuke back, because he's never referred to her when asked by outside sources post timeskip.



i never said that. i'm only proving _why_ it takes priority to him. forlong is under the impression that he's doing it mostly for sakura because of his feelings for her. i'm simply pointing out that's far from the case. it wasn't meant as a dismissal of the reason that involves sakura.


----------



## Forlong (May 30, 2009)

Ren said:


> Saying Sasuke is an ass is _your _opinion, not Sakura's. She has shown she still (at the very least) respects him, even after all he's done. That clearly tells me she doesn't think he's an ass.


Yeah, he only tried to stab Naruto in the back.  What was I thinking?

You _can_ think someone is a jerk or idiot and still respect and/or care for them.



Ren said:


> And I'm out. I really don't see any point in using the same arguments over and over again, when we'll be having some new developments very soon in the manga, that will probably end everything (Sakura's reaction to seeing Sasuke again, Naruto's meeting with Hinata).


Don't kid yourself.  This won't be over 'til the manga is.  Maybe not even then. 



kageneko said:


> no. when did i imply that?
> no he doesn't  clearly you're over inflating it's importance to him.
> look i'll even pull in a panel i already brought up in this post that proves my point perfectly. naruto is asked why he wants to bring sasuke back and his answer...gasp! is not sakura!


Okay, you're right about that.  But I don't see you telling me that I'm wrong about Sakura.  Interesting how she "loves" Sasuke so much; but, when she talks about him, it's only about how much he means to Naruto.


----------



## Kage (May 30, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Okay, you're right about that.  But I don't see you telling me that I'm wrong about Sakura.  Interesting how she "loves" Sasuke so much; but, when she talks about him, it's only about how much he means to Naruto.



wha?  

i was only ever trying to prove that naruto's most important reason for bringing back sasuke doesn't _revolve_ around sakura. i never said anything about sakura and naruto or sakura and sasuke


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 30, 2009)

kageneko said:


> i never said that. i'm only proving _why_ it takes priority to him. forlong is under the impression that he's doing it mostly for sakura because of his feelings for her. i'm simply pointing out that's far from the case. it wasn't meant as a dismissal of the reason that involves sakura.



thank you for the clarification then kagesama, i just misunderstood your statement is all :/

@forlong - i may be wrong, but i don't think that kage meant anything that implied sakura having feelings for sasuke or naruto, or really anything to do with sakura in that manner, but naruto's most important ambition for getting sasuke back


----------



## Kage (May 30, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> thank you for the clarification then kagesama, i just misunderstood your statement is all :/
> 
> @forlong - i may be wrong, but i don't think that kage meant anything that implied sakura having feelings for sasuke or naruto, or really anything to do with sakura in that manner, but naruto's most important ambition for getting sasuke back



*Spoiler*: __ 




pek



no problem. i'm a little flummoxed as to how you got that impression from my post to begin with. it wasn't what i was trying to say at all D: i may not think of NaruSaku in a romantic light but i'm certainly not going to ignore important aspects of the relationship. naruto took special consideration of sakura's feelings when he made that promise to her because he cares for her and it's important to him that she's happy but one cannot consider this his driving force behind retrieving sasuke when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

so you're not wrong. that is exactly what i was trying to prove


----------



## Inuhanyou (May 30, 2009)

kageneko said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, yes.  I guess i had my hackles raised when i had mistakenly assumed you insinuated that the POALT (or his promise to sakura) wasn't all that important to Naruto..until i realized what you said wasnt that, but that he was going after sasuke more than anything because of  how much he cared about him

i'm much more disturbed at how i ever reached that conclusion now that i read it outloud..


----------



## CharLots (May 31, 2009)

ButterflyGod said:


> Doesn't anyone else besides me find it tragic and pathetic that this implies other characters have to die in order for NaruSaku to happen? That it can't happen without requiring the physical deaths of characters whose only crime is either being the object of another's spoken affections (Sasuke) or having voiced their affections (Hinata)?
> 
> I kind of feel sorry for Sasuke. For a guy who is apparently not interested in Sakura so therefore he shouldn't even be in the way because of this lack of interest, yet he's _still _a threat to NaruSaku. Same goes for Naruto. If he's not interested in Hinata, then she shouldn't be a threat to NaruSaku no matter how Hinata feels about him. If NaruSaku should happen, it should happen because Naruto and Sakura have fallen in love with each other. To say that Sasuke needs to die implies a fear that Sakura continues to love Sasuke. With Naruto, it makes even less sense. He's never shown an interest in Hinata before oh no but he KNOWS now that changes EVERYTHING. You know what maybe it does! We don't know yet so I'm not going to say it either way.
> 
> ...



Excellent point. Putting all personal preferences asides, I've always found it a bad sign as far as canon predictions go when a pairing needs other characters to be evil and/or dead to work. 

True, Naruto never showed any interest in Hinata, and Sasuke replied to Sakura's confession with "You're annoying". However, the way the story is written and the characters developed does indeed imply that this could change. As soon as unrequited love is thrown into a story, especially if it's backed up with explicit confession scenes, the reader is, imo, expected to wonder if the tables might turn. If the only unrequited love in the story came from Naruto's crush for Sakura in Part 1, then naturally NS would clearly be Kishi's choice. As it is, only SS and NH have had the benefit of an "I love you" that has yet to be answered.


----------



## Forlong (May 31, 2009)

CharLots said:


> If the only unrequited love in the story came from Naruto's crush for Sakura in Part 1, then naturally NS would clearly be Kishi's choice. As it is, only SS and NH have had the benefit of an "I love you" that has yet to be answered.



You're kidding, aren't you? 
That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.  Yeah, it's not like Naruto had a crush on Sakura that grew to love.  And it's not like his "non-existant" dedication to Sakura made her respect and admire him.  It's not like it's slighty more visible than _blindingly obvious_ that Sakura is starting to fall for him.

ZARU!


----------



## 王志鍵 (May 31, 2009)

cloakclass said:


> Since Naruto heard Hinata confess, he's clearly not going to ignore such a action. He might like it, we don't know. But for one thing, Hinata has proven worthy to be Naruto's true love, unlike a certain pink haired bumble who can't even save her own hide from instant danger and has to rely on him for safety. Hell Hinata sacaficing her own life for him pretty much proves Sakura new found feelings for Naruto are worthless.
> 
> As for Sasuke, no man should live alone in this world. And he made it clear for Karin not to become his heart, so if he returns to the good guy side, he'll probably see Sakura for a mate.



Hmm,I wouldn't say she's "sacrificing" her life, but more like "protecting" him by all means necessary.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Jun 1, 2009)

Tyrannos said:
			
		

> Needless to say, people's logic in attacking NaruSaku is flawed because they only focus simply on the obvious and attacking out of pure bias.   Yet mangas always have hidden meaning that tend to get ignored until the moment the revelation occurs.
> 
> For instance, how can SasuSaku to happen if Sasuke abandoned her and Naruto was the one keeping her hope alive?  Or how NaruHina's expect a simple confession being enough to justify a pairing, when the two hardly know one another?   Because you all argue there is more to come.
> 
> *Though when it comes to NaruSaku, it's regarded as fantasy that nothing can develop beyond friendship.   Which negates the arguements above.   And that, is flawed logic of the Anti-NaruSaku arguement at it's core.  *



It really isn't that.  Aside from my love of NaruHina, you have to admit that there is a *lot* to either deal with or ignore in order for it not to happen.  And there's a lot of stuff that has to be overhyped in order to see NaruSaku as viable.

I guess the argument i'm trying to make is that i can incorporate the entire cast into the narrative (or put simply: themes of the story) that Kishimoto has given us *with* their back stories *and* character resolutions, and still see NaruHina happening.

Conversely, there's so much of the NaruSaku argument that ignores convienient pieces of characters back story.  Like: "Sakura no longer loves Sasuke", with no explanation of her feelings given in the story or evidence used other than the fact she's being nice to Naruto.

Or, writing characters out using themes that don't fit into anything like what we've been given before.  Like: "Naruto will reject Hinata and she will disappear" and not considering when the last rejection from Naruto was (never) or how has he responded to each person who has risked their life for him (Sasuke, Iruka)?

I guess if NaruSaku happened, especially the way many people argue on here, it would be a very jarring experience in my opinion because it wouldn't fit what i have seen so far in the story.


*Spoiler*: __ 



The reason we say "there is more to come" is because we have had these relationships building in tandem with the themes of the manga in similar ways to how Kishi has always presented them.  Example: The definite parallel between the way Hinata protected Naruto and how Sasuke and Iruka did.  Those two previous battles were the trigger for Naruto's bonds with Sasuke and Iruka so why not Hinata?  That's a clear theme and Kishi loves his themes.  Just look at Naruto's "talk no jutsu" (saving Gaara and Nagato).  Or "the will of fire" (espoused by the Third and Asuma, clearly passed onto Shikamaru among others).  Or the "abandoning your team mates makes you trash" (Obito, Kakashi, Naruto, even Sasuke with his new little team).




And all of the stuff i've said up there only concerns why i think NaruHina is the most probable pairing on the basis of *narrative themes*.  There's other stuff on their personal similarities, shared nindo, interaction, etc etc.  
*Spoiler*: __ 



It's really not just the confession.




But to go back a step, narratively, why do you think that NaruSaku is the most probable?  What has been previously shown in the story in terms of *themes of the manga* that makes you think they will be paired?  Because i don't think there is anything.  And that's just *one* of the reasons why i think that their relationship can't "develop beyond friendship".

Though if you think there is something then by all means go ahead.

I hope i haven't attacked the "obvious" there...

Later.


----------



## Kage (Jun 1, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> It really isn't that.  Aside from my love of NaruHina, *you have to admit that there is a lot to either deal with or ignore in order for it not to happen.  And there's a lot of stuff that has to be overhyped in order to see NaruSaku as viable.*



...

lol.

i'm sorry but that's just cute 

incredulous with the irony of that statement aside using _narrative themes_ sounds like an awfully convenient excuse to make up for lack of development. 

something like this


> Conversely, there's so much of the NaruSaku argument that *ignores convienient pieces of characters back story. Like: "Sakura no longer loves Sasuke", with no explanation of her feelings given in the story or evidence used other than the fact she's being nice to Naruto. *


can easily be turned around.

sakura's love is often considered very genuine and yet we aren't given a reason as to why or how she fell in love in the first place. a lot like to assume she had deeper reasons for her affection from the other girls when she started to crush on him simply because she didn't know he was popular and yet such _deeper_ reasons are never revealed or implied at all _and_ she's portrayed as a rather bratty fangirl to boot. then there's being on his team, working with him, getting to know him a _little_ better and worrying for his well-being. sounds awfully familiar. but with sasuke it's different cause sakura's obviously very shallow crush is what turns that into love? talk about conveniently ignoring pieces of a characters back story. 

there's no explanation given in the story or evidence used for her maturing serious love other then the fact that sasuke was on her team, she worried for his well-being (mostly as a result of her infatuation) and he was civil to her on occasion.


----------



## Tyrannos (Jun 1, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> It really isn't that.  Aside from my love of NaruHina, you have to admit that there is a *lot* to either deal with or ignore in order for it not to happen.  And there's a lot of stuff that has to be overhyped in order to see NaruSaku as viable.



And preytell what's overhyped about NaruSaku?   

Frankly, you shouldn't criticize one pairing when your own fandom has been guility of doing just that for years.  Always clinging on to that eventual confession and making as if something was going to come about it.  Like Naruto magically falling in love like it was some Shoujo story.



XXXTurkey said:


> I guess the argument i'm trying to make is that i can incorporate the entire cast into the narrative (or put simply: themes of the story) that Kishimoto has given us *with* their back stories *and* character resolutions, and still see NaruHina happening.



I'll call BS on that.  

Naruto doesn't revolve around NaruHina.  And it's not the center of the Galaxy.  



XXXTurkey said:


> Conversely, there's so much of the NaruSaku argument that ignores convienient pieces of characters back story.  Like: "Sakura no longer loves Sasuke", with no explanation of her feelings given in the story or evidence used other than the fact she's being nice to Naruto.



If that's the case, then why does Sakura's profile says she's starting to fall in love with Naruto?

Why does Shonen Jump itself state Sakura "had" a crush on Sasuke?



XXXTurkey said:


> Or, writing characters out using themes that don't fit into anything like what we've been given before.  Like: "Naruto will reject Hinata and she will disappear" and not considering when the last rejection from Naruto was (never) or how has he responded to each person who has risked their life for him (Sasuke, Iruka)?
> 
> I guess if NaruSaku happened, especially the way many people argue on here, it would be a very jarring experience in my opinion because it wouldn't fit what i have seen so far in the story.
> 
> ...



Oh so because Naruto got rejected by Sakura all those times, means Naruto is going to end up with Hinata?  


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata tried to save Naruto, so it's automatically is going to happen?  




By your logic, NaruSaku is viable since Naruto risked his life to save Sakura from Gaara.



XXXTurkey said:


> And all of the stuff i've said up there only concerns why i think NaruHina is the most probable pairing on the basis of *narrative themes*.  There's other stuff on their personal similarities, shared nindo, interaction, etc etc.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Ironic, you criticizing NaruSaku's of "overhyping" and yet here is a prime example of NaruHina's doing it.

Because Hinata adopted Naruto's Nindo of "never giving up" doesn't mean NaruHina is going to happen.   And if you think about it, it would justify people calling Hinata a stalker.   Because Naruto isn't in love with Hinata, instead he's in love with Sakura.

Btw, by this logic, it also would justify NaruSaku.   If Naruto never gives up, then he isn't going to give up loving Sakura.  



XXXTurkey said:


> Though if you think there is something then by all means go ahead.
> 
> I hope i haven't attacked the "obvious" there...



Sorry, but all you did was make a lot of big talk with little or no evidence to back up your claim.


----------



## alangm89 (Jun 1, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> And preytell what's overhyped about NaruSaku?
> 
> Frankly, you shouldn't criticize one pairing when your own fandom has been guility of doing just that for years.  Always clinging on to that eventual confession and making as if something was going to come about it.  Like Naruto magically falling in love like it was some Shoujo story.
> 
> ...


 i totally agree. sakura also took naruto's never give up nindo also. at least thats what i think since in fights she doesnt want to back down and become useless to naruto, she wants to help him out as much as she can, because he has been there for her even when she never knew it untill the end of part 1.

if im wrong plz point it out i like a good convo.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Jun 1, 2009)

Tyrannos said:
			
		

> And preytell what's overhyped about NaruSaku?
> 
> Frankly, you shouldn't criticize one pairing when your own fandom has been guility of doing just that for years.  Always clinging on to that eventual confession and making as if something was going to come about it.  Like Naruto magically falling in love like it was some Shoujo story.



Hmm, just because one fandom is guilty of something it doesn't mean the other side shouldn't be brought up on it.  Take the MP's expenses scam that's going on now here in England.  Just because Labour MP's are guilty of lying about spending public money it doesn't mean the Conservatives shouldn't be brought up on it too.  That's a very strange argument you're making there.

And in fairness, we did actually get a confession.  Lots of people said even that wouldn't happen.  If people were wrong about that then... why not again?

Y'know, in the same way that i could be wrong.  C'mon, you've got to admit it's possible for you to be wrong too. 

I'm just showing you why i think the way i do.



			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> I'll call BS on that.
> 
> Naruto doesn't revolve around NaruHina.  And it's not the center of the Galaxy.



*Rereads post*

I really don't think i claimed that...

What i was saying wasn't that "everyone's themes and backstory contribute to the inevitable NaruHina!" (sounds like some dictator ).  It was that NaruHina doesn't ignore characters or their backstories or the themes of the manga wheras many of the arguments made to support NaruSaku do.  I did give a couple of examples.



			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> If that's the case, then why does Sakura's profile says she's starting to fall in love with Naruto?
> 
> *Why does Shonen Jump itself state Sakura "had" a crush on Sasuke?*



Which profile where?  Is that the one that says something about Sakura being unsure about her feelings?  In any case, you are stretching that source beyond breaking point if you are claiming that as definitive evidence that Sakura loves Naruto.  It goes in the same category as pretty much all NaruSaku evidence: might mean something, might not.  Plus i could take the bolded statement and turn it around.  Sakura no longer has a *crush* on Sasuke.  She *loves* him.  But again, putting that aside, you're using very circumstantial evidence and then very tenous arguments to support that circumstantial evidence.  Looking at single words to claim deep feelings not obvious in the manga itself is going a little far.  At least to me.



			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> *Oh so because Naruto got rejected by Sakura all those times, means Naruto is going to end up with Hinata?*
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Well, it is a theme. 

No, but seriously, you have missed the point slightly.  For example, your last comment there takes what i was saying completely out of context.  Sasuke saving Naruto, Iruka saving Naruto and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata saving Naruto


 all focused solely on the relationship betwen Naruto and the one saving him.  Naruto protecting Sakura was after Sasuke had tried himself and then asked Naruto to.  Plus, there was no input from Sakura or Naruto in terms of their bond.  When Sasuke protected Naruto, Naruto asks *why* and Sasuke answers.  When Iruka protects Naruto, Naruto asks *why* and Iruka answers.  When 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata protected Naruto, Naruto asked *why* and Hinata answers


.  It is an important point to make because it shows that there is *interaction* at the important moment.



			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> Ironic, you criticizing NaruSaku's of "overhyping" and yet here is a prime example of NaruHina's doing it.
> 
> Because Hinata adopted Naruto's Nindo of "never giving up" doesn't mean NaruHina is going to happen.   And if you think about it, it would justify people calling Hinata a stalker.   Because Naruto isn't in love with Hinata, instead he's in love with Sakura.
> 
> Btw, by this logic, it also would justify NaruSaku.   If Naruto never gives up, then he isn't going to give up loving Sakura.



Well, aside from the fact i don't think Naruto loves Sakura i have an issue with that.  I'm not overhyping, i'm saying that there's a number of different reasons NaruHina could work that are based on their character, motivations, interactions, and the general theme of the manga itself.  Overhyping would be taking individual moments that are ambiguous in terms of romance, ignoring the context of the scene and using them to support a pairing.



			
				Tyrannos said:
			
		

> Sorry, but all you did was make a lot of big talk with little or no evidence to back up your claim.



The thing is, its hard to continually restate the same things over and over.  One of the reasons i made the point about "narrative themes" was because i was genuinely interested if you could produce a theme that has been introduced and use it to support NaruSaku.  That way i thought we might be able to get around this whole "going around in circles" problem.  I've given you examples of how i think 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata protecting Naruto


 fits into the theme of "Naruto's important people" and how that could eventually lead to their pairing.  Is there a theme that you can use to make a similar point with NaruSaku?

I would be *extremely* interested in reading your theory if you decided to try.

But anyway, i have a seminar to go to and i'm probably gonna be late now...

But hey.

Later.


----------



## hauntin (Jun 1, 2009)

Naruto needs to grow up, Naruto at this point is a childish idiot with a selfish desire to boot(Sakura chan date?). He'll never mature if he keeps acting like Sakura is his number 1 love. Naruto's feelings for Sakura is not love, it's admiration. He'll always see her as a saint, therefore will never be true to his feelings around her. So NaruSaku is just a pairing based on lies and conjectures.


----------



## alangm89 (Jun 1, 2009)

hauntin said:


> Naruto needs to grow up, Naruto at this point is a childish idiot with a selfish desire to boot(Sakura chan date?). He'll never mature if he keeps acting like Sakura is his number 1 love. Naruto's feelings for Sakura is not love, it's admiration. He'll always see her as a saint, therefore will never be true to his feelings around her. So NaruSaku is just a pairing based on lies and conjectures.


 so what your saying is hitting on the person you like is selfish desire???

I dont see how his feelings for her are lies and conjuctures...???


----------



## Saunion (Jun 1, 2009)

kageneko said:


> ...
> 
> lol.
> 
> ...



It's particulalry hilarious when NaruHina's best friend SasuSaku doesn't simply need to ignore "narrative themes" but actual words from the author himself because it contradicts their arguments.

"Sakura saw something in Sasuke no one else did, she had her reasons to fall for him!". Kishimoto's words: "Sasuke is her completely arbitrary love interest andt that makes her realistic". Translation: it was a 6 year old girl's dumb little crush and being realistic implies it isn't destined to last eternal against all odds and hurdles. "Sakura is the one who understands Sasuke the most!". Kishi once again: "Sakura is someone who doesn't understand the workings of men". Except if you want to argue Sasuke isn't male of course, which could be done I guess, but then that whole UCHIHA CLAN REVIVAL!!! master plan SasuSaku put all its hopes on becomes a bit pointless. 

But that makes it perfectly A-OK. As long as they have moons and cover page texts and suki arrows they'll be fine.

And if you want to talk about narrative themes, what about the fact Naruto has always been a story about a kid who has to strive to reach his goals? To me it seems more consistent with the story that Naruto would finally win the girl he's been interested in since the very beginning after lots of struggle and failures than simply picking up Hinata, which needs zero initiative and effort from his part, makes him seem like a bit of a quitter and more or less completely contradicts the way he's ever been portrayed.

And before I get jumped by the pseudo-feminists who're sure to show up with the usual "Sakura isn't a price!!!" rebuttal and are only interested in GIRL POWER when it's about defending the poor cherry blossom against the assaults of the obnoxious ramen eating rapist yet at the same time think her being used to lay eggs for the Uchiha colony is a charming prospect, not to mention thinking Hinata having no life outside of a boy who barely knows she exists is perfectly fine (two inspiring relationships for women worldwide without a doubt), do you honestly think Kishimoto, with the way he treats females, has anything else in store for Sakura than being the price wife of one of the two main male characters? It's obvious to me he doesn't, so no hypocritical indignation please.


----------



## JordanHalliday1993 (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm new to this forum so my arguments might not be like the usual quoting of other people's views. So don't get too offensive about the argument, but by all means, if you think I am wrong tell me why.

For a long time at the start I was hoping for Naruto and Sakura to get together in the end, and yes, lately there has been a few indications such as the way she treats him with more respect, noticed him more when he arrived back to the village after 2 years, and the thing that Yamato said (forgive me for forgetting the quote).

I have reasons against Naruto and Sakura that may or may not have crossed the mind of Masashi Kishimoto. The biggest reason for me is the fact that Sakura had those feelings for Sasuke. And I don't mean that in the obvious light. I mean it in the sense that if I was Naruto and the girl I long since had a crush on had no interest in me for a long time, but had complete obsession with my main rival, and we can only assume she started to lose this over the period which Sasuke was away. This would be an initial turn off I feel. Say, although this would be very unlikely, Sasuke decided randomly to come back to Konoha as he missed his friends and changed his ways. How would Sakura react? I think if Sasuke down that she would fall straight for Sasuke again. 

Saying this mean yes, I do still think Sakura has feelings for Sasuke. Much more than any possible romantic feelings she could have grown in very little time for Naruto.

I also think Naruto and Sakura have the friendship of Tsunade and Jiraiya. Jiraiya, like Naruto did with Sakura, had this youth crush on Tsunade which I think had went away over years of getting his prioritys right and realising what was more important. Just like I think Naruto has, I think he has realised he has a bigger part to play than to chaise love from a girl who gave hers to another boy. Just like Jiraiya decided to stop chaising Tsunade and go find his old friend and information on Akastuki - something worth while. And I think over the years Jiraiya became more mature about Tsunade and treated her more as a best friend, as we could see with their final talk. I think this will happen with Naruto and Sakura.

After the events with Hinata risking her life for Naruto I can see something happening here. The writers can't just let her do what she done, say what she said, for nothing to happen there. As soon as she said her speach I realised it has to be Naruto and Hinata. As I had seen someone saying, Naruto's views on everybody who had saved his life before changed once that had done so, and I think this will not be different.

Hinata and Naruto both have similar stories. Being failures to begin with, then suddenly deciding to change and step up to the mark. When you view the Naruto/Hinata pros and cons to the Naruto/Sakura pros and cons, the Naruto and Hinata relationship looks more believable. 

You may agree or disagree, we shall see lol.


----------



## alangm89 (Jun 1, 2009)

JordanHalliday1993 said:


> I'm new to this forum so my arguments might not be like the usual quoting of other people's views. So don't get too offensive about the argument, but by all means, if you think I am wrong tell me why.
> 
> For a long time at the start I was hoping for Naruto and Sakura to get together in the end, and yes, lately there has been a few indications such as the way she treats him with more respect, noticed him more when he arrived back to the village after 2 years, and the thing that Yamato said (forgive me for forgetting the quote).
> 
> ...


i see where ur comming from but at the same time i was thinking the same thing but backwards.

at first i wanted naruhina but now im more of a narusaku.



JordanHalliday1993 said:


> I also think Naruto and Sakura have the friendship of Tsunade and Jiraiya. Jiraiya, like Naruto did with Sakura, had this youth crush on Tsunade which I think had went away over years of getting his prioritys right and realising what was more important. Just like I think Naruto has, I think he has realised he has a bigger part to play than to chaise love from a girl who gave hers to another boy. Just like Jiraiya decided to stop chaising Tsunade and go find his old friend and information on Akastuki - something worth while. And I think over the years Jiraiya became more mature about Tsunade and treated her more as a best friend, as we could see with their final talk. I think this will happen with Naruto and Sakura.


 yes there relationship is Tsunade and Jiraiya but Jiraiya never gave up on Tsunade, also Jiraiya never grew up in a sence because he went after women every chance he got but Tsunade was the one he wanted the most.



JordanHalliday1993 said:


> After the events with Hinata risking her life for Naruto I can see something happening here. The writers can't just let her do what she done, say what she said, for nothing to happen there. As soon as she said her speach I realised it has to be Naruto and Hinata. As I had seen someone saying, Naruto's views on everybody who had saved his life before changed once that had done so, and I think this will not be different.


 yes i have to agree that it means more then it looks, however i dont think he will fall in love with her on a drop of a hate because she tryed to save him at the cost of her own life. what i think personaly what this might turn into is Hinata decided she cant be on the side lines hopeing that he will come after her and that she has to take a open/active role in trying to win him over. ferther more i think this was her opertunity to change they way she is and not be shy and closed about things.

im not saying your wrong or right i know im not totally right or wrong it all depends on what kishi does with the manga and how things turn out which we will probly see in the next couple weeks.


----------



## JordanHalliday1993 (Jun 1, 2009)

I can't be bothered quoting to be honest lol.

But with the Jiraiya bit, I don't actually feel he completely gave up on Tsunade. I think deep down he will have always had some feelings for her. But I think he just realised there are bigger issues.

You know, as unlikely as it may seem. Naruto might even be a free man all his life like his life like Jiraiya lol. But I doubt that since all the fans will be wanting the main character to have a relationship.

I just hope that the writer makes the right choice and does it in the right way so that we all can't complain.


----------



## hauntin (Jun 1, 2009)

JordanHalliday1993 said:


> I'm new to this forum so my arguments might not be like the usual quoting of other people's views. So don't get too offensive about the argument, but by all means, if you think I am wrong tell me why.
> 
> For a long time at the start I was hoping for Naruto and Sakura to get together in the end, and yes, lately there has been a few indications such as the way she treats him with more respect, noticed him more when he arrived back to the village after 2 years, and the thing that Yamato said (forgive me for forgetting the quote).
> 
> ...


I completely agree.


----------



## kstark2009 (Jun 1, 2009)

some people say that Naruto LOVES Sakura.
Then show me the Chapter in which Naruto said to Sakura :I love you! or Iam in love with sakura. or something like that^^(
*Spoiler*: __ 



romantic feelings are not realy important for the story nor are they main part


)
Naruto has a little crush on sakura! But between love and a crush are huge differences ^.- you all should know that! even children would know that (in my opinion)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto thinks about sasuke like a Brother. I can imagine that Sakura could be like a sister to him. And the crush could only like a habit (in part2)



We dont know what kind of feelings naruto have for Hinata (
*Spoiler*: __ 



romantic feelings are not realy important for the story nor are they main part


). It could be POSSIBLE that he fell in love with her or got a crush on her in the past.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I will not say NaruHina will happen^^ But I am Saying that NaruSaku will never happen


----------



## N4rut4rded (Jun 1, 2009)

Hmmm..... well if there isn't naruhina all the other pairs get muddled. personally i think if the pairs are Naruhina and sasusaku then naruto will have to forget about sakura. sasusaku may seem obvious but.....
i think sasuke doesnt deserve sakura....


----------



## Forlong (Jun 1, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Conversely, there's so much of the NaruSaku argument that ignores convienient pieces of characters back story.  Like: "Sakura no longer loves Sasuke", with no explanation of her feelings given in the story or evidence used other than the fact she's being nice to Naruto.


When she talks about Sasuke in part 2, it's always in relevance to Naruto.  How Naruto feels about Sasuke.  Why Naruto wants him back.  She hasn't talked about how she feels about him.  In creative works, what you leave out is as important as what you put in.  The fact that she hasn't talked about how she feels about Sasuke, indicates that she don't feel as strongly for him.



XXXTurkey said:


> And all of the stuff i've said up there only concerns why i think NaruHina is the most probable pairing on the basis of *narrative themes*.  There's other stuff on their personal similarities, shared nindo, interaction, etc etc.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, before I answer, I'll state the themes to Naruto: bonds, accepting others, and understanding each other.  That's what I've been able to gather of the themes.

Now, Naruto and Sakura's relationship.  They both strugled for acceptance, and that's why Naruto likes Sakura.  They were at odds, at first, but grew to understand each other and became friends.  Not just friends, BEST friends.  Sounds like it fits the theme quite nicely.

Good question, though.



XXXTurkey said:


> And in fairness, we did actually get a confession.  Lots of people said even that wouldn't happen.  If people were wrong about that then... why not again?


"I will protect Sakura-chan...
...no matter what!"

I am getting tired of pointing this out, but in Japan this is _better_ than a love confession.  He's expressing love AND life-long commitment.



XXXTurkey said:


> What i was saying wasn't that "everyone's themes and backstory contribute to the inevitable NaruHina!" (sounds like some dictator ).  It was that NaruHina doesn't ignore characters or their backstories or the themes of the manga wheras many of the arguments made to support NaruSaku do.  I did give a couple of examples.


:rofl
THAT'S RICH!  So even Sasuke's backstory prooves NaruHina as inavoidable?  I know that's not what you meant, but that's how silly that sounds.

Let me ask you this: what happens to Sakura if NaruHina happens?  Asside from ending up with Sasuke!  How does she grow?  How are you _not_ ignoring her?



XXXTurkey said:


> It goes in the same category as pretty much all NaruSaku evidence: might mean something, might not.  Plus i could take the bolded statement and turn it around.


The most ambiguous line I've read in the series is: "I actually like people like you." (note: Naruto said it to Hinata)  What the Hell is that supposed to mean?



XXXTurkey said:


> Naruto protecting Sakura was after Sasuke had tried himself and then asked Naruto to.


Are you talking about this?  If so, go back a few pages before that.  See Naruto risking his life to protect Sakura _before_ Sasuke says anything!?  And I don't recall Sasuke doing jack crap to protect Sakura.  Now he wanted to protect Sakura and Naruto, but Naruto told him it wasn't nessicary and...well, you know the rest.



XXXTurkey said:


> Plus, there was no input from Sakura or Naruto in terms of their bond.


Yeah, it's not like she ever risked her life for him or anything.  Actions speak louder than words.  Hinata may have been there when Naruto needed her, but Sakura is _always_ there for Naruto.



XXXTurkey said:


> Well, aside from the fact i don't think Naruto loves Sakura


And that's when I said:
"WTF!?"
By what logic do you conclude that!?


----------



## xVenomousrage (Jun 1, 2009)

@kstark2009
Throughout part 2 the naruto and sakura relationship has been developing, and kishi said himself he wanted a little romance in it. Im not saying Narusaku will happen, but theres more of a chance other than Naruhina(Who they have only with each other for about 1 chapter in total) and SasuSaku since well, im pretty sure has died out by the end of part 1. And yet, Sasunaru has had more interactions and moments than any other pairing of these pairings and yet we have this thread/argument

and I kinda found it funny how you said naruto's "crush" for sakura is a habbit and it doesnt mean anything, than shouldnt though hinatas "crush" be on the same level?


----------



## Tyrannos (Jun 1, 2009)

XXXTurkey said:


> Which profile where? Is that the one that says something about Sakura being unsure about her feelings? In any case, you are stretching that source beyond breaking point if you are claiming that as definitive evidence that Sakura loves Naruto. It goes in the same category as pretty much all NaruSaku evidence: might mean something, might not. Plus i could take the bolded statement and turn it around. Sakura no longer has a *crush* on Sasuke. She *loves* him. But again, putting that aside, you're using very circumstantial evidence and then very tenous arguments to support that circumstantial evidence. Looking at single words to claim deep feelings not obvious in the manga itself is going a little far. At least to me.


 
So Shonen Jump itself isn't a reliable source? :rofl

And where's the definitive proof Sakura loves Sasuke? If she loves him so much then why does her DB3 profile indicate her feelings are shifting to Naruto?



XXXTurkey said:


> Well, it is a theme.
> 
> No, but seriously, you have missed the point slightly. For example, your last comment there takes what i was saying completely out of context. Sasuke saving Naruto, Iruka saving Naruto and
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


 
*WRONG! *Naruto vowed he would save Sakura *BEFORE* Sasuke told him too.

Naruto saying he needs to save Sakura:

this

Sasuke tells him he needs to save Sakura:

this



*Spoiler*: _But with_ 



Hinata saving Naruto (really she didn't). The only thing that came about was Naruto going 6-tails.

I highly doubt anything of significance is going to come out of it because Naruto already knows Hinata is okay. Heck, he knows everyone in the village is okay. So why would he go to Hinata now to see if she's okay, when he already knows she is? That doesn't make sense at all.

Just wishful thinking that something would come out of a single moment. All because she confessed. 






XXXTurkey said:


> Well, aside from the fact i don't think Naruto loves Sakura i have an issue with that. I'm not overhyping, i'm saying that there's a number of different reasons NaruHina could work that are based on their character, motivations, interactions, and the general theme of the manga itself. Overhyping would be taking individual moments that are ambiguous in terms of romance, ignoring the context of the scene and using them to support a pairing.


 
Well you NaruHinas had no problem with Hinata being in love with Naruto all this time, so its hypocritical to say Naruto doesn't love Sakura when we have clear moments in the manga that do show he still has feelings for her.

As for your "different reasons" for NaruHina:

Character: It's only her, there is no real interaction. Just Naruto being oblivious.

Motivations: Only motiviation his Hinata's own crush. How come Naruto's for Sakura is brushed aside when he never even gave Hinata a second thought?

Interations: All but one is comical. 

The General theme? The theme is about bonds, not "girls determination to get guys". It's Shonen, its about action; not romance like in a Shoujo.



XXXTurkey said:


> The thing is, its hard to continually restate the same things over and over. One of the reasons i made the point about "narrative themes" was because i was genuinely interested if you could produce a theme that has been introduced and use it to support NaruSaku. That way i thought we might be able to get around this whole "going around in circles" problem. I've given you examples of how i think
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


 
Naruto's important people? I don't recall Hinata being on the list. Last I checked it's Iruka, Kakashi, Sasuke, Sakura, Jiraiya, and Tsunade. They are Naruto's family, not Hinata. Naruto regards Hinata at most as a friend.


You want a theme, how about the simple one of the "Loser becoming the Winner?"

Naruto wants to become Hokage and acknowledged, so why not the simplist ideal of him winning the heart of the woman he's always loved? 




kstark2009 said:


> some people say that Naruto LOVES Sakura.
> Then show me the Chapter in which Naruto said to Sakura :I love you! or Iam in love with sakura. or something like that^^(
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


 
Hypocritical for you to say that when Hinata never said she loved Naruto.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Until recently




Besides, I think Chapter 3 made it obvious Naruto had feelings for Sakura.



kstark2009 said:


> Naruto has a little crush on sakura! But between love and a crush are huge differences ^.- you all should know that! even children would know that (in my opinion)


 
Wow, to laugh at Naruto's crush for Sakura, when yet that's what NaruHina was about for 400 Chapters.

Hypocricy strikes again! 



kstark2009 said:


> Naruto thinks about sasuke like a Brother. I can imagine that Sakura could be like a sister to him. And the crush could only like a habit (in part2)


 
Well guess Naruto likes i*c*st then, because he's only had eyes for her throughout the manga. 



kstark2009 said:


> We dont know what kind of feelings naruto have for Hinata (
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


 
I can tell you what feelings Naruto has for Hinata - ZERO!

And if Naruto was in love with her, I think we would've found out after 400 chapters, don't you? And if he did, well he's a womanizer in chasing Sakura at the same time. :rofl


*Spoiler*: __ 



Don't come crying when NaruHina doesn't happen.


----------



## JmLapaxSF (Jun 1, 2009)

Uhm. I think for the most part. Naruto might learn to accept/love Hinata.


*Spoiler*: __ 



And in chapter 441, when he escaped chibaku tensei, Even though Naruto was still fighting Pain he noticed the place was destroyed and asks Katsuyu what has happened, the first thing on Naruto's mind was *Hinata* next was the villagers then after hearing that no one was harmed he *cried*. That shows how Naruto remembers Hinata's sacrifice, and note how he slipped unto 6-tails formation (and should have forgotten things or what had happened). But instead he *cried*.


----------



## Forlong (Jun 1, 2009)

JordanHalliday1993 said:


> I also think Naruto and Sakura have the friendship of Tsunade and Jiraiya.


One problem with that: Naruto and Sakura are _NOT_ Jiraiya and Tsunade.  They are very different people.



kstark2009 said:


> Naruto thinks about sasuke like a Brother. I can imagine that Sakura could be like a sister to him. And the crush could only like a habit (in part2)



What messed up logic is this!?  How the Hell do you have a crush on someone out of habit!?  That makes no sense...

...to anyone...

...EVER!

Now, as the finnal nail in that coffin, here's the deffinition to "crush":
_An intense but usually short-lived infatuation._


----------



## M4verick (Jun 1, 2009)

JmLapaxSF said:


> Uhm. I think for the most part. Naruto might learn to accept/love Hinata.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Right....I like how you conveniently forget that Naruto's last memory before loosing conciseness is Hinata being stabbed brutally, and in his mind, being killed...


----------



## xVenomousrage (Jun 1, 2009)

JmLapaxSF said:


> Uhm. I think for the most part. Naruto might learn to accept/love Hinata.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


lmao, naruto cries all the time. he cried over sasuke, sakura, Jiraya, etc..


----------



## M4verick (Jun 1, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Now, as the final nail in that coffin, here's the definition to "crush":
> _An intense but usually *short-lived infatuation.*_



Yea, and what comes next?  Too bad most naruhina have a tendency to over exaggerate what love is, unless its Hinata's feelings of course.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 1, 2009)

JmLapaxSF said:


> Uhm. I think for the most part. Naruto might learn to accept/love Hinata.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



LoL, wow. No one was saying that when he was bent over in a fetal position crying bitter tears when Sasuke got a way or when Sakura ran to KN4.


----------



## JmLapaxSF (Jun 1, 2009)

xVenomousrage said:


> lmao, naruto cries all the time. he cried over sasuke, sakura, Jiraya, etc..



Crying shows an affection when close to you disappears. He cried for Sasuke and Gaara coz he couldnt save them, he cried for Jiraiya coz he was the only father-figure/master he ever had.He cried over to someone that has said *LOVE*. No one has ever told Naruto that word and what it really meant.


----------



## xVenomousrage (Jun 1, 2009)

JmLapaxSF said:


> Crying shows an affection when close to you disappears. He cried for Sasuke and Gaara coz he couldnt save them, he cried for Jiraiya coz he was the only father-figure/master he ever had.He cried over to someone that has said *LOVE*. No one has ever told Naruto that word and what it really meant.


If naruto Has never new what the word love meant, How do you know he felt love for hinata? how do you know that he cried for her just because he couldnt save her(Like sasuke and gaara).

o .o lol Toker. xD


----------



## M4verick (Jun 1, 2009)

JmLapaxSF said:


> Crying shows an affection when close to you disappears. He cried for Sasuke and Gaara coz he couldnt save them, he cried for Jiraiya coz he was the only father-figure/master he ever had.He cried over to someone that has said *LOVE*. *No one has ever told Naruto that word and what it really meant.*



Right...where Naruto's important people were examples to Naruto of what love is.  They gave him the love in the times he needed it the most which helped mold him to what he has become.

Hinata passively observes Naruto most of the manga, than confesses love.

Using Turkey's favorite word in the whole universe, stop being "ambiguous".


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 1, 2009)

JmLapaxSF said:


> Crying shows an affection when close to you disappears. He cried for Sasuke and Gaara coz he couldnt save them, he cried for Jiraiya coz he was the only father-figure/master he ever had.He cried over to someone that has said *LOVE*. No one has ever told Naruto that word and what it really meant.



So Naruto needs lessons of love from Hinata ? What a joke. He cried in a context of understandable and probably general relief.


----------



## JmLapaxSF (Jun 1, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, if you look at the chapters closely it wasnt just a "relief".He did show a strong affection when Hinata fell down. And in the first place  he why did Naruto slipped unto the 6-tails if it was just somebody. It clearly states in chapter 437, pg. 16-17that "Naruto seethed with the worst motions he'd ever felt" now what does that mean. And he cried because of *somenone* not somebody.


----------



## Saunion (Jun 1, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



The mere idea he cried mainly for Hinata's sake and not because he was thoroughly relieved he didn't eviscerate her but also Tsunade, Sakura, Shikamaru and the dozens other people who were still alive in Konoha at that time is insulting.

Come on. Let's be serious here. I know Naruto's irresistible urge to ravish Hinata's helpless body was clearly focused on for most of the manga and that it'd be logical for him to ignore the fate of his surrogate mother, his "crush" and one of his closest friends in this situation but still.




Besides even if he did cry for Hinata and Hinata only I don't see how this could be considered a positive sign of him potentially returning her feelings when Sakura cried at the mere idea of him dying, cried at him going KN4, and cried tears of relief when he woke up from his "oh no I have no more skin" coma. But those were _tears of friendship_ of course.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 1, 2009)

JmLapaxSF said:


> Well, if you look at the chapters closely it wasnt just a "relief".He did show a strong affection when Hinata fell down. And in the first place  he why did Naruto slipped unto the 6-tails if it was just somebody.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Even that has context


----------



## xVenomousrage (Jun 1, 2009)

JmLapaxSF said:


> Well, if you look at the chapters closely it wasnt just a "relief".He did show a strong affection when Hinata fell down. And in the first place  he why did Naruto slipped unto the 6-tails if it was just somebody.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


in the past he has cried over "someone" to. o .o


----------



## Inuhanyou (Jun 1, 2009)

Saunion said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 






*Spoiler*: __ 



 She also just cried recently when everything got taken out, when he just so happened to show up seconds later


----------



## stella270 (Jun 1, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Actually I can see NaruHina happening. It's pretty clear that Kishi wants to end this manga (he killed Pain in one chapter, and Sasuke is FINALLY returning to Konoha). All he needs to do is to tie up the loose ends of this manga, and Kishi is officially done with Naruto.

If Kishi did want NaruSaku to happen, then why did he throw in that big confession of Hinata's? Wouldn't it be simpler to have Sakura protecting Naruto instead of Hinata? This way, Kishi can have Sakura confess her eternal love for Naruto, blah blah blah, and NaruSaku will be made official. End of Story.

However, we see Hinata confessing to Naruto instead. If Narusake were to happen, this would undoubtedly complicate matters. And Kishi has no intention of adding more plots to this saturated manga. Hence, it is more likely at this point of time that NaruHina will happen instead of NauSaku.

Besides, I don't think Sakura has got over her crush/love/infatuation(whatever you want to call it) with Sasuke. Her developing relationship with Naruto does not necessarily imply that she's done with Sasuke. Moreover, why do you think Kishi took the trouble and the time to create Karin? Obviously, she's not going to end up with Sasuke. I think her creation was intended to contrast her feelings for Sasuke to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke e.g. lust vs love.

Of course, this are just my interpretations of the events occuring in Naruto, which is subjected to personal opinion. But at least you must agree that NaruHina is getting somewhere, while NaruSaku has remained resolutely stagnant, and Karin wasn't just created for the lols.


----------



## Hikui (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm very surprised at the sudden action. It was getting slow.



Tyrannos said:


> Apparently you taking "pumped-up" too literally.   You obviously see Sakura get focused again when Naruto says it's okay.  Naruto's giving her hope that she would soon reunite with Sasuke.


I take most of the stuff literally. 



Tyrannos said:


> Now with 297, 301-310 as you can see she's not feeling useless.
> 
> With Chapter 343, I disagree.  You make like she's doing nice deeds for Naruto, which counteracts what Yamato said about her feelings.   If she was simply doing a nice thing, then why the "shock", why the stool scooting?   Why was she raising her fist in annoyance when Sai interfered?   Why is it NOT a romantic moment when Naruto himself is saying it was?
> 
> ...



So saying, "I can't do anything for Naruto" (paraphrasing, referring to help Naruto bring him back and all that jazz.), is not feelings useless? then what is? 

And about the fist rising, I wouldn't count for that. It's just hard to tell, Sakura does that for lots of stuff. As you can see, she doesn't yell at Sai like she usually would whenever she's annoyed. And about Naruto being saying is romantic, well it might as well is. I even accepted it before. It was a "romantic gesture" BUT I don't see Sakura's 'romantic' motivation to do that, hence I don't consider it a romantic moment. Clear? 




Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Well we shall see.  But honestly, I doubt Kishimoto will have him do that, there more important things going on that needs his attention.




*Spoiler*: __ 



O rly? To me it's seems pretty obvious that Naruto will be on his way back next chapter. It's closure chapter, so yeah. 







Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It's a mute point, indeed. And I agree, it might not happen for a while (and I mean next chapter, BUT it still could be possible even when I wouldn't want it that way.) 







Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I agree, it's make or break. I want the next chapter ASAP. Lol. 






Forlong said:


> When she talks about Sasuke in part 2, it's always in relevance to Naruto.  How Naruto feels about Sasuke.  Why Naruto wants him back.  She hasn't talked about how she feels about him.  In creative works, what you leave out is as important as what you put in.  The fact that she hasn't talked about how she feels about Sasuke, indicates that she don't feel as strongly for him.



I don't mean to butt in but I felt like I had to. You say that the reason why Sakura hasn't addressed her feelings for Sasuke in part 2 is because she doesn't love him. Now, even when this is a possible scenario it would be _very_ bad written if it were. So what if she's close to Naruto now? 
Sakura being nice and considerate of Naruto has nothing to do with her feelings for Sasuke. What does it tells us of her character if she gets over her feelings for Sasuke over the time skip (when those feelings were a central part of her character in Part I)? Nothing. This is fiction, if Sakura feels that way it must be shown. And by shown I don't mean Sakura being considerate of another person, but Sakura addressing her own feelings for Sasuke. 

You said, Yamato didn't finish his sentence (whatever that was) in chapter 297 because it is "important". By your own logic, Sakura's feelings haven't be addressed (I include Naruto) now not because they're forgotten but because they're important. Period. Kishimoto said he plans on giving Sakura a little bit more of development, this my friend, I think is the main reason her feelings haven't been addressed. Whether they're still there or not is different. But for now, there are close to no clear demonstrations that her feelings for Sasuke are gone.  

I'm not arguing that SasuSaku is going to happen, so don't get on my case, but that kinds of claims have no base. 

I'm out.


----------



## Tyrannos (Jun 2, 2009)

Hikui said:


> So saying, "I can't do anything for Naruto" (paraphrasing, referring to help Naruto bring him back and all that jazz.), is not feelings useless? then what is?



Wait, so you take her being discouraged in not able to be doing more for Naruto as being useless, while she's enduring pain of her own wounds to heal Naruto?  

Dunno about you, but she's doing plenty for Naruto at that point in saving his life. And on top of that, she sure didn't feel useless afterwards.  In fact, she's cheering Naruto on.



Hikui said:


> And about the fist rising, I wouldn't count for that. It's just hard to tell, Sakura does that for lots of stuff. As you can see, she doesn't yell at Sai like she usually would whenever she's annoyed. And about Naruto being saying is romantic, well it might as well is. I even accepted it before. It was a "romantic gesture" BUT I don't see Sakura's 'romantic' motivation to do that, hence I don't consider it a romantic moment. Clear?



So Kishimoto having Naruto yell out, "IT'S ROMANTIC!"  Isn't romantic?  

No offense, but when you clearly contradict the manga, it just makes you look foolish.



Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> O rly? To me it's seems pretty obvious that Naruto will be on his way back next chapter. It's closure chapter, so yeah.





Hikui said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It's a mute point, indeed. And I agree, it might not happen for a while (and I mean next chapter, BUT it still could be possible even when I wouldn't want it that way.)




*Spoiler*: __ 



We shall see.  






Hikui said:


> I don't mean to butt in but I felt like I had to. You say that the reason why Sakura hasn't addressed her feelings for Sasuke in part 2 is because she doesn't love him. Now, even when this is a possible scenario it would be _very_ bad written if it were. So what if she's close to Naruto now?
> Sakura being nice and considerate of Naruto has nothing to do with her feelings for Sasuke. What does it tells us of her character if she gets over her feelings for Sasuke over the time skip (when those feelings were a central part of her character in Part I)? Nothing. This is fiction, if Sakura feels that way it must be shown. And by shown I don't mean Sakura being considerate of another person, but Sakura addressing her own feelings for Sasuke.
> 
> You said, Yamato didn't finish his sentence (whatever that was) in chapter 297 because it is "important". By your own logic, Sakura's feelings haven't be addressed (I include Naruto) now not because they're forgotten but because they're important. Period. Kishimoto said he plans on giving Sakura a little bit more of development, this my friend, I think is the main reason her feelings haven't been addressed. Whether they're still there or not is different. But for now, there are close to no clear demonstrations that her feelings for Sasuke are gone.
> ...



I take you never encountered the "interuption" moments in other anime before, have you?  

And let's not forget Databook 3, which states that Sakura has feelings for Naruto now. 


*Spoiler*: _We seen this recently as well_ 



 When Sakura realized that Hinata acted out of love.

So her feelings are starting to surface now.

*EDIT:* Well forget "starting".   




Just like in Chapter 343 and 297.


----------



## Forlong (Jun 2, 2009)

stella270 said:


> Besides, I don't think Sakura has got over her crush/love/infatuation(whatever you want to call it) with Sasuke. Her developing relationship with Naruto does not necessarily imply that she's done with Sasuke. Moreover, why do you think Kishi took the trouble and the time to create Karin? Obviously, she's not going to end up with Sasuke. I think her creation was intended to contrast her feelings for Sasuke to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke e.g. lust vs love.
> 
> Of course, this are just my interpretations of the events occuring in Naruto, which is subjected to personal opinion. But at least you must agree that NaruHina is getting somewhere, while NaruSaku has remained resolutely stagnant, and Karin wasn't just created for the lols.


When has Sakura even thought about how she feels about Sasuke?  Never!  That's a bad sign.  NaruSaku...stagnant?  What manga have you been reading?  I noticed two people getting to know each other better an developing a strong bond.  Sounds like _developement_, doesn't it?



Hikui said:


> I don't mean to butt in but I felt like I had to. You say that the reason why Sakura hasn't addressed her feelings for Sasuke in part 2 is because she doesn't love him. Now, even when this is a possible scenario it would be _very_ bad written if it were. So what if she's close to Naruto now?
> Sakura being nice and considerate of Naruto has nothing to do with her feelings for Sasuke. What does it tells us of her character if she gets over her feelings for Sasuke over the time skip (when those feelings were a central part of her character in Part I)? Nothing. This is fiction, if Sakura feels that way it must be shown. And by shown I don't mean Sakura being considerate of another person, but Sakura addressing her own feelings for Sasuke.


Can you think of any better reason Sakura hasn't thought about her feelings toward Sasuke?  So we can be "surprised" when she says she still loves him?



Hikui said:


> You said, Yamato didn't finish his sentence (whatever that was) in chapter 297 because it is "important". By your own logic, Sakura's feelings haven't be addressed (I include Naruto) now not because they're forgotten but because they're important. Period. Kishimoto said he plans on giving Sakura a little bit more of development, this my friend, I think is the main reason her feelings haven't been addressed. Whether they're still there or not is different. But for now, there are close to no clear demonstrations that her feelings for Sasuke are gone.


So...you're arguing that Sakura has to develope by _still_ loving Sasuke?  That makes very little sense.


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## Inuhanyou (Jun 2, 2009)

^ How she feels about aka in a romantic manner. She's never even broached the subject the whole of part 2..that's got to be telling in atleast some way, beyond any other evidence atleast. 

Posting scans like that won't help your cause, dupe.


----------



## mystic868 (Jun 2, 2009)

stella270 said:


> Actually I can see NaruHina happening. It's pretty clear that Kishi wants to end this manga (he killed Pain in one chapter, and Sasuke is FINALLY returning to Konoha). All he needs to do is to tie up the loose ends of this manga, and Kishi is officially done with Naruto.
> 
> If Kishi did want NaruSaku to happen, then why did he throw in that big confession of Hinata's? Wouldn't it be simpler to have Sakura protecting Naruto instead of Hinata? This way, Kishi can have Sakura confess her eternal love for Naruto, blah blah blah, and NaruSaku will be made official. End of Story.
> 
> However, we see Hinata confessing to Naruto instead. If Narusake were to happen, this would undoubtedly complicate matters. And Kishi has no intention of adding more plots to this saturated manga. Hence, it is more likely at this point of time that NaruHina will happen instead of NauSaku.


Well Sakura was REALLY busy healing other villagers, couldn't see Naruto because she doesn't have buyakugan like Hinata and as Katsuyi said- "don't interrupt Naruto". As for her feelings - after she was rejected by Sasuke she started to hide her feelings. That's true she's crying sometimes especially when she's worrying about someone but she has problems with sth like official confession. That's not strange cause normally rejected person don't want to be rejected again. Plus after this whole Pain's action, and Hinata confession I think it's time for Sakura " to have her 5 minutes". 
Also you shouldn't talk about "bad writing" because that's Kishi's style - to suprise fans with unpredictable issues like massive unexpected resurrection.


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## Afalstein (Jun 3, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Well Sakura was REALLY busy healing other villagers, couldn't see Naruto because she doesn't have buyakugan like Hinata and as Katsuyi said- "don't interrupt Naruto".



An excellent practical reason, but also one very easy for Kishi to work around.  He could have easily placed Hinata a mile distant and have Sakura run over the second she heard about it from Katsuyi.  

The "don't interrupt" part is interesting.  Naruto did tell Sakura not to interfere with his fight with Sasuke before.  So in that case, you could argue that Hinata's intervention was wrong.  But as I've pointed out before, Hinata more simply couldn't help herself, and she did work from the best of motives.  Besides, Naruto's earlier reprimand of Sakura was due more to his feeling of rivalry with Sasuke.  The fight with Pain was much different.



mystic868 said:


> As for her feelings - after she was rejected by Sasuke she started to hide her feelings. That's true she's crying sometimes especially when she's worrying about someone but she has problems with sth like official confession. That's not strange cause normally rejected person don't want to be rejected again. Plus after this whole Pain's action, and Hinata confession I think it's time for Sakura " to have her 5 minutes".
> Also you shouldn't talk about "bad writing" because that's Kishi's style - to suprise fans with unpredictable issues like massive unexpected resurrection.



Sakura really shouldn't be worried about rejection from Naruto.  I mean, the guy's all but proposed to her at one time or another.  Mind you, that doesn't mean she ISN'T afraid about it, but given the kind of dominating person she is (especially around Naruto), it doesn't seem like a major concern in her character.

This is a little shameful, but I haven't thought a lot about how Sasuke's departure might have affected her personality.  I mean, aside from what it showed already (newfound desire to prove herself, etc.).  Looking at it again, though, it seems strange that she hasn't asked Naruto out.  Like on the rebound, just to feel loved by someone.  It would be a little shallow of her, but possibly understandable.  Especially IF Sasuke was the silly crush he's made out to be at times. 

Of course, you may simply have a girl who's having a hard time letting go.  This would imply that Sasuke was more than a little crush, but also that it would be a good thing for her to move on from it.  But I'm just saying there would be a precedent for her going for Naruto on the rebound, and Kishi could have used it.  But maybe he just wanted to make it longer.

And yes, that was a doggone unpredictable move on Kishi's part.  I'm still not sure how I feel about such an easy fix.


----------



## faceoffkang** (Jun 3, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Of course, you may simply have a girl who's having a hard time letting go.  This would imply that Sasuke was more than a little crush, but also that it would be a good thing for her to move on from it.  But I'm just saying there would be a precedent for her going for Naruto on the rebound, and Kishi could have used it.  But maybe he just wanted to make it longer.
> 
> And yes, that was a doggone unpredictable move on Kishi's part.  I'm still not sure how I feel about such an easy fix.



Does anyone think it's weird that Sakura hasn't moved on yet. At least to me it seems that way. Why is she having such a hard time letting go. It has been around three years at this point since he left the village (correct me if I am wrong as I am very tired). He has tried to kill them/seriously hurt them(them being team 7 when yamato was in charge [forget ch. #'s]).
It seems to me her love was a shallow one...(reasonably debatable).
I just can't understand why she can't get over things...the last couple of chapters or so we haven't seen anything about sas[gay] because pain was busy destroying everything but before that I still felt that Sakura was still sad and just laughed and was happy on the outside but grieving on the inside. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Its going to be a big moment when sas[gay] shows up a Konaha


----------



## mystic868 (Jun 3, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> An excellent practical reason, but also one very easy for Kishi to work around.  He could have easily placed Hinata a mile distant and have Sakura run over the second she heard about it from Katsuyi.


Well I think that Hinata's view range is a lot longer than 1 mile 


Afalstein said:


> The "don't interrupt" part is interesting.  Naruto did tell Sakura not to interfere with his fight with Sasuke before.  So in that case, you could argue that Hinata's intervention was wrong.  But as I've pointed out before, Hinata more simply couldn't help herself, and she did work from the best of motives.  Besides, Naruto's earlier reprimand of Sakura was due more to his feeling of rivalry with Sasuke.  The fight with Pain was much different.


Well I think she's afraid of being rejected only in small part. The biggest part of her feelings is that because she's dominating character then maybe she doesn't want to confess to anyone after this 3 years and prefers being confessed


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## Amai106 (Jun 3, 2009)

and as far as sasuke and sakura go, sakura needs to get over sasuke, if sasuke really liked sakura then he would have considered sakuras feelings like naruto would. also i dont think naruto would ever purposely try to kill sakura or bring harm her way.its just not the way naruto is.
plus sakura doesnt give sasuke that warm cute smile that she gives narutopek

moreover, if you really think about it,what experiences have they shared together?(naruto and hinata) when have they ever hung out with eachother, or even talk to each other without hinata fainting or blushing,and besides hinata only likes/love naruto out of admiration regarding to naruto's personality and his never give up attitude.


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## 王志鍵 (Jun 3, 2009)

^
You make it seem as if Naruto sees Hinata as a total stranger.
Remember the Chuunin exams? They got to know each other pretty well at that time.


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## AMtrack (Jun 3, 2009)

ROFL ok no...I've known people to have longer conversations with one-night stands.


Seriously, exchanging a few words does not equal knowing them pretty well.  But yes, they got a feel for each other.  I'm pretty sure Shino is the only person naruto has less of an idea about than hinata, to be frankly honest.  NaruHina is just not a realistic relationship for a lot of reasons.  

1) Naruto has not expressed the slightest romantic interest in hinata.  Ever.  Crying for her safety doesn't count, everyone knows he would have been bawling the same if it had been Chouji up there against pein.  Naruto is just a bit emotional.

2) Their personalities do NOT work well together.  In relationships, balance is important.  Without equality, a relationship is very much unhealthy.  Naruto's personality is WAY too dominating for Hinata to handle.  He's too loud, rambunctious, and reckless.  Honestly, hinata couldn't effectively stop him from doing something that was way too dangerous.  She's too shy, too reserved, and too introverted to really interact with Naruto well.  Their relationship would be very much one-sided...not good.

3) Hyuuga politics.  Nuff said.  Obviously Kishi could circumvent this any way he chooses, but realistically speaking I don't see Hyuugas marrying anyone but hyuugas.  Hokage or not.  This is more speculation than anything, but based off of what has been shown in the manga it is not likely.

4) No development.  Literally, there is practically none.  This manga is nearing its close, and I really think it is way too late to throw Hinata into the mix without it coming off as totally contrived.  Naruto and Hinata barely spoke, and all of the sudden she just comes out and says "I love you"??  And now everyone believes they're going to suddenly spend time together.  Too little too late to start building a relationship when one member of the party has had no prior interest.  I'm actually convinced that was a plot device/fanservice.  I could be wrong though.

5) She's a side character.  That pretty much seals her fate.  She has no bearing on the main plot whatsoever, so her ticket as an actual love interest seems pretty small to me.  This is more of an opinion than a fact though.  I dont read enough manga to compare the fate of side characters as love interests, and I wont.  

6) Awkward pair if I ever saw one.  This relates to one of my earlier points, but they just don't interact very well.  I'm sure some of you think its cute but let's face it, there really isn't much chemistry.  Love based purely off of admiration doesn't really translate into a relationship...just more idolatry.  Its GREAT for hinata's personal development, as we've seen with the confession and her bravery to confront pain, but doesn't work well in a relationship setting.


Thats basically it for now.  I know I'm about to be flamed to holy hell but it is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.  Of the three, SasuSaku and NaruSaku are the only likely pairings, NS being the most likely of all.  Thats been developing since the beginning of the manga, and is likely how it will finish.


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## 王志鍵 (Jun 3, 2009)

^
1) His prier respect towards Hinata is developable. Like it already has(ch.437).
2) Your opinion. Naruto and Hinata balance each other out.You have heard about these kinds of relationships right? Hmm, I guess not.
3) Your assumption. Btw HyuugaxHyuuga= i*c*st. 
4) Remember the Chuunin exams?Development doesn't always have to be direct you know.
5) Your opinion
6) Your opinion. It's not just admiration,Hinata is willing to help Naruto(written exam),  worries about Naruto's safety(neji vs. naruto, search for sasuke, naruto vs pain), and she's willing to die protecting him.(confession) I'm sure there's more, but that's all I could think of at the top of my head


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## AMtrack (Jun 3, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> ^
> 1) His prier respect towards Hinata is developable. Like it already has(ch.437).
> 2) Your opinion. Naruto and Hinata balance each other out.You have heard about these kinds of relationships right? Hmm, I guess not.
> 3) Your assumption. Btw HyuugaxHyuuga= i*c*st.
> ...




I already stated it was my opinion.  Repeating my own admission doesn't do anything.  Saying its my opinion doesn't make my assertions any less true.  Everything in this thread is opinion because none of the pairings are canon yet.  But what the heck, I'll play with you anyway.

1)  Respect doesn't = budding romantic relationship.  If thats the case than Naru(insert anyone here) is just as canon.  The fact that you had to grasp at that tiny straw shows there hasn't been any development.  If you have doubts compare NH to NS or even SS.  

2) Yes I have, but in this case the balance leads to unbalance.  Its one thing for naruto to be loud and hinata to be quiet.  There's nothing wrong with that.  But its different for naruto to be reckless, and hinata to not be assertive.  She won't be able to save him from himself.  Whereas Sakura can at least knock some sense into him, Hinata can barely speak to him.  If you look beyond obvious opposite traits, you will see that a NaruHina relationship is one-sided, with one party completely dominating.

3)  I said it was my assumption, it doesn't make it any less potentially true.

4) What about the Chuunin exams.  That was more Hinata development than NaruHina development.  All of that was purely for Hinata's progression as a character.  It had absolutely NO bearing on Naruto whatsoever.

5) Obvious is Obvious, you can't address it can you?

6)  Again obvious is obvious, you have to say more than "your opinion"...it doesn't disprove anything.

Everything here is opinion, including what you just said.  Opinions dont = wrong.  They are just that, opinions.  You barely addressed anything I said, which tells me that you must not have an answer to them yet.


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## 王志鍵 (Jun 3, 2009)

1) Well lets assume narusaku does happen, are you saying Sakura's respect towards Naruto didn't help start their relationship?
2)Can you explain why Sakura wasn't able to knock some sense into Sasuke when he left?
4)Naruto understood Hinata alot more during the Chuunin exams.She went from a Dark,shy,and plain in Naruto's eyes, to someone he really respects.


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## AMtrack (Jun 3, 2009)

1) Respect started their platonic relationship, something else would have to factor into their potentially romantic one...which would be the quest for Sasuke and everything they've been through together because of that.

2) Because Sakura is different towards Sasuke than she is with naruto.  She is actually much more comfortable around naruto.  Because of that SasuSaku is a bad pair as well, because Sakura tended to act like Hinata does towards naruto...except less shy and more fangirly.  But the dynamics would be the same.  Sasuke would dominate the relationship, and Sakura would be told to shut up and go somewhere.  Again, unbalanced and not really ideal.

4)  I know, but I'm saying that the whole "chuunin exam" thing was more for Hinata...not Naruto and Hinata.  Kishi develops hinata through her crush on naruto.  Naruto's newfound respect didn't really have much of an impact on him, it just got a mention and that was it.  Its not like he sat and thought about it.  It did, however, greatly impact hinata and helped her develop as a character.  The fact that she may not get the object of her affections could also greatly develop her character as well.  After all, the pursuit is what made her the character she is today.  


I actually kind of like NaruHina because its as cute pair....i just dont think they mesh as well as say...naruto and sakura.  NaruSaku reminds me of a dynamic pair, they play off of each other really well.  SasuSaku and NaruHina dont have that kind of chemistry in my opinion.  Its fun to think about, but in terms of likelihood i stand by NaruSaku.


EDIT:  Well pursuit is not a good word, because hinata isn't really pursuing naruto.  She more or less seems perfectly content at admiring him and wishing him the best.


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## XXXTurkey (Jun 3, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





AMtrack said:


> ROFL ok no...I've known people to have longer conversations with one-night stands.
> 
> 
> Seriously, exchanging a few words does not equal knowing them pretty well.  But yes, they got a feel for each other.  I'm pretty sure Shino is the only person naruto has less of an idea about than hinata, to be frankly honest.  NaruHina is just not a realistic relationship for a lot of reasons.



Actually, in terms of meaningful conversations Hinata is at least the equal of most of the konoha 12 and beats a number of them, excluding those from team 7 for one obvious reason.  Put it this way, find me any meaningful conversation between Naruto and any of: Kiba, Shino, Ino, Chouji, Tenten.  And i don't think Naruto knows anything about Sakura's background (chiefly because Kishi hasn't supplied us with any information on her background, but still).



> 1) *Naruto has not expressed the slightest romantic interest in hinata.*  Ever.  Crying for her safety doesn't count, everyone knows he would have been bawling the same if it had been Chouji up there against pein.  Naruto is just a bit emotional.



@ bolded: *Yet*

And Sakura has expressed continued extreme romantic *dis*interest in Naruto.

And Naruto's supposed romantic "interest" in Sakura has extended only to spur-of-the-moment, poorly executed date requests and the desire to be fed by her.



> 2) Their personalities do NOT work well together.  In relationships, balance is important.  Without equality, a relationship is very much unhealthy.  Naruto's personality is WAY too dominating for Hinata to handle.  He's too loud, rambunctious, and reckless.  Honestly, hinata couldn't effectively stop him from doing something that was way too dangerous.  She's too shy, too reserved, and too introverted to really interact with Naruto well.  Their relationship would be very much one-sided...not good.



I disagree.  Shouting at or physically reprimanding Naruto does not work as a means of stopping him.  There's numerous examples.

Tsunade shouts at him all the time for calling her old.  He hasn't stopped doing that.  Sakura has reprimanded him for being perverted (using the sexy jutsu) and there's no sign of that stopping.  Shouting at him for being rude to Tsunade didn't work either.  When Iruka shouted at him for being stupid in class, that didn't make Naruto stop.

No, what seems far more effective in terms of teaching Naruto or explaining something is when someone calmly explains something.  Kakashi has done it on numerous occasions to teach Naruto.  Iruka has done it too.  Hinata did it before Naruto fought Neji.  
*Spoiler*: _Pain, chapter 436_ 



In fact, even one of Naruto's enemies, Pain, managed to calm Naruto down to the point of hoplessness when he calmly talked to him in chapter 436




"Controlling" Naruto doesn't work, calmly explaining does, so your point is moot.  If anything, Hinata's personality is a good compliment for Naruto's.



> 3) Hyuuga politics.  Nuff said.  Obviously Kishi could circumvent this any way he chooses, but realistically speaking I don't see Hyuugas marrying anyone but hyuugas.  Hokage or not.  This is more speculation than anything, but based off of what has been shown in the manga it is not likely.



I'd love to see what evidence you have of intermarriage between Hyuuga members.  You say "based off of what has been shown in the manga", so what "in the manga" are you basing this assertion on?  The only "Hyuuga politics" we have seen have been in a flashback related to Hizashi and Hiashi.  Unless i've forgotten something...

Seriously though, phrases like "nuff said" aren't very useful, if only because it would seem that until this is all resolved there will never be "nuff said".  It also made me smile slightly how you said "nuff said" and then proceeded to say more...

Actually, i'm sorry, that's a bit mean of me... 



> 4) No development.  Literally, there is practically none.  This manga is nearing its close, and I really think it is way too late to throw Hinata into the mix without it coming off as totally contrived.  Naruto and Hinata barely spoke, and all of the sudden she just comes out and says "I love you"??  And now everyone believes they're going to suddenly spend time together.  Too little too late to start building a relationship when one member of the party has had no prior interest.  I'm actually convinced that was a plot device/fanservice.  I could be wrong though.



I'll refrain from showing you the numerous times their relationship has been developed and move straight onto the confession.  Kishimoto (the author) has added that scene, so he obviously feels there is enough development for Hinata to confess otherwise adding it would be completely random.  Hehe, i hear so many people shouting "but it is!" in response to that.  Have some respect for the author please.

Anyway, as you say, you could be wrong and i reckon you are.  But at least you're open to the idea you might be wrong, some people around here aren't. 



> 5) She's a side character.  That pretty much seals her fate.  She has no bearing on the main plot whatsoever, so her ticket as an actual love interest seems pretty small to me.  This is more of an opinion than a fact though.  I dont read enough manga to compare the fate of side characters as love interests, and I wont.



This is irrelevant.  Especially comparing this manga to other manga.  All of this is up to the author and it is his story.  Also, considering what he has given us so far it doesn't seem to matter that Hinata is a side character.



> 6) Awkward pair if I ever saw one.  This relates to one of my earlier points, but they just don't interact very well.  I'm sure some of you think its cute but let's face it, there really isn't much chemistry.  Love based purely off of admiration doesn't really translate into a relationship...just more idolatry.  Its GREAT for hinata's personal development, as we've seen with the confession and her bravery to confront pain, but doesn't work well in a relationship setting.



The times they have interacted they have had a positive influence on each other.  And chemistry is a weird thing and practically undefinable.  Identifying it in real life is hard enough.  Identifying it between two fictional characters is near impossible and comes down to personal opinion.  I think they'd interact just fine.  Put it this way; confident boy, shy girl?  I've been in a relationship like that and there was plenty of chemistry .  But that's just my personal experience and as such i'll refer you back to what i said about personal opinion.



> Thats basically it for now.  I know I'm about to be flamed to holy hell but it is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.  Of the three, SasuSaku and NaruSaku are the only likely pairings, NS being the most likely of all.  Thats been developing since the beginning of the manga, and is likely how it will finish.






I disagree (a lot) with you saying NS is the most likely but i ain't gonna flame you for it.  In fact, if someone has a go at you i'm totally willing to defend you.

Just keep it civil yourself, that's the best we can all do.

Have a good one.


----------



## faceoffkang** (Jun 3, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> 1) Well lets assume narusaku does happen, are you saying Sakura's respect towards Naruto didn't help start their relationship?
> 2)Can you explain why Sakura wasn't able to knock some sense into Sasuke when he left?
> 4)Naruto understood Hinata alot more during the Chuunin exams.She went from a Dark,shy,and plain in Naruto's eyes, to someone he really respects.



Everyone's different for some respect for someone can lead to romantic feelings...others not...


----------



## Forlong (Jun 3, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 







BruceLeefan said:


> You make it seem as if Naruto sees Hinata as a total stranger.


You mean the girl that he's had _one_ complete conversation with? 



AMtrack said:


> 3) Hyuuga politics.  Nuff said.  Obviously Kishi could circumvent this any way he chooses, but realistically speaking I don't see Hyuugas marrying anyone but hyuugas.  Hokage or not.  This is more speculation than anything, but based off of what has been shown in the manga it is not likely.


Can no one ever bring this theory up again.  I hate it.



BruceLeefan said:


> 5) Your opinion


Good comeback.  Want to add a few "niener...niener"s in there, while you're at it? 



BruceLeefan said:


> 2)Can you explain why Sakura wasn't able to knock some sense into Sasuke when he left?


Because Sasuke's an idiot.



XXXTurkey said:


> And Sakura has expressed continued extreme romantic *dis*interest in Naruto.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Like the ramen feeding scene?  Look at Sakura's face.  Her eyes are half closed and she has a slight smile on her face.  A sort of "come hither" look, if you will.



One possiblity is that she rebuffs his advances to force him to make more.  That _might_ be it.



XXXTurkey said:


> And Naruto's supposed romantic "interest" in Sakura has extended only to spur-of-the-moment, poorly executed date requests and the desire to be fed by her.


How much time does he have to plan a proper date?  Also they go to Ikarachu Ramen (spelling?) together quite a few times.



XXXTurkey said:


> Sakura has reprimanded him for being perverted (using the sexy jutsu) and there's no sign of that stopping.


You mean that one time just before he *stopped* using it?


Also there's this scene.  Naruto gets a bad idea, Sakura tells him so.  He doesn't do it.  No screaming.  No punching.  I believe _that_ was what he/she meant!



XXXTurkey said:


> "Controlling" Naruto doesn't work, calmly explaining does, so your point is moot.  If anything, Hinata's personality is a good compliment for Naruto's.


The word "control" was never used there.  The fact is, if Naruto is about to do something stupid, could Hinata stop him?  I don't think so.



XXXTurkey said:


> I'll refrain from showing you the numerous times their relationship has been developed and move straight onto the confession.  Kishimoto (the author) has added that scene, so he obviously feels there is enough development for Hinata to confess otherwise adding it would be completely random.  Hehe, i hear so many people shouting "but it is!" in response to that.  Have some respect for the author please.


Yeah, all TWO NaruHina scenes.
Are you seriously using Kishi-sensei writing style as your deffense?  That's like making a house of sticks on sand!  None of his other love confessions were requited.  You can say "Naruto isn't Sasuke" all you want, doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know Hinata well and is interested in someone else.



XXXTurkey said:


> Also, considering what he has given us so far it doesn't seem to matter that Hinata is a side character.


What are you talking about?  The last time he had Hinata in a story arc, she had what?  Three lines?  Of _no_ importance.  Yeah, he's sure proving how important she'll be to the plot. 



XXXTurkey said:


> The times they have interacted they have had a positive influence on each other.


As are the far more fequent NaruSaku interactions.



XXXTurkey said:


> And chemistry is a weird thing and practically undefinable.  Identifying it in real life is hard enough.


Chemistry [*kem*-_uh_-stree] _n_
3: The interaction of one personality with another.
4: Sympathetic understanding.

And the meaning of life is:
The condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

ZARU!


----------



## Hikui (Jun 4, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I just promised today I wasn't coming back for a while (lolz, days).



Tyrannos said:


> Wait, so you take her being discouraged in not able to be doing more for Naruto as being useless, while she's enduring pain of her own wounds to heal Naruto?Dunno about you, but she's doing plenty for Naruto at that point in saving his life. And on top of that, she sure didn't feel useless afterwards. In fact, she's cheering Naruto on.


 
I don't think Sakura is useless, but I do think Sakura thinks she's useless. "I only do dumb stuff for Naruto" or something like that. I know she does lots of stuff for Naruto (mainly cheers him on and stuff) but Sakura wants to be INVOLVED in retrieving Sasuke, so far she's done little. She got plenty of reasons to feel like she's not doing something. 





Tyrannos said:


> So Kishimoto having Naruto yell out, "IT'S ROMANTIC!" Isn't romantic?
> 
> No offense, but when you clearly contradict the manga, it just makes you look foolish.


 
 Just because Naruto said it's romantic doesn't mean it's romantic. And I never said that, all I said was that I don't take it as a romantic (MUTUAL) romantic moment because I don't see the reasons as to why Sakura would consider it romantic (and by reasons I mean reasons not "Look at her face is luv"). 






Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> We shall see.


 

*Spoiler*: __ 



I actually laughed at the hug. Sakura hits him and then sort of hugs him. It seems more like a brotherly relationship to me. Had Naruto been Sasuke (redeemed or whatever)would she have greeted him with a punch and then a hug? I don't think so. Don't get too excited, Kishimoto likes to troll his fandom.  Doesn't he?







Tyrannos said:


> I take you never encountered the "interuption" moments in other anime before, have you?
> 
> And let's not forget Databook 3, which states that Sakura has feelings for Naruto now.
> 
> ...


 
Who talked about interruption moments? I talked about Sakura not being shown that she's over Sasuke when it most be shown if she is going to fall for Naruto. Hell...if Kishimoto doesn't do that then it would seem like Sakura loves both romantically, and well that scenario is very crappy. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Oh god, if Sakura hugged Naruto because she suddenly realized she was in love with Naruto and because Hinata confessed (so she had to act), it's horrible.  You don't do that kind of stuff. However if Sakura hugged Naruto because she was actually concerned (he is her friend, for god's sake!) then it's different. Sakura was with all the villagers, personally I don't consider it particularly important. We haven't even seen the panels yet, let's not debate.






Forlong said:


> Can you think of any better reason Sakura hasn't thought about her feelings toward Sasuke? So we can be "surprised" when she says she still loves him?
> 
> So...you're arguing that Sakura has to develope by _still_ loving Sasuke? That makes very little sense.


 
It's suspense. (Just like Hinata's confession took this long even when we all knew she was going to). 

And I never argued that Sakura has to develop by still loving Sasuke but that Kishimoto needs to state that she's over Sasuke for NaruSaku to happen or any other Sakura pairing. That's what you do in fiction, one cannot go and make assumptions like that. Just like people cannot go and say Sakura "IS" falling in love with Naruto when it isn't clear. You can say she might, but not that she is. Just like you can say she might be over Sasuke but not that she's over Sasuke since you have 0 evidence to back up your claim. She hasn't even bad mouthed Sasuke or said negative stuff about him or said that she considers him as a comrade. 

That's all I'm officially out.


----------



## Tyrannos (Jun 4, 2009)

Hikui said:


> I don't think Sakura is useless, but I do think Sakura thinks she's useless. "I only do dumb stuff for Naruto" or something like that. I know she does lots of stuff for Naruto (mainly cheers him on and stuff) but Sakura wants to be INVOLVED in retrieving Sasuke, so far she's done little. She got plenty of reasons to feel like she's not doing something.


 
No. She's upset that Naruto is bearing all the burden and suffering cause of his vow. Which she doesn't want him too. 

That's not being useless, that's being concerned and considerate.



Hikui said:


> Because Naruto said it's romantic doesn't mean it's romantic. And I never said that, all I said was that I don't take it as a romantic (MUTUAL) romantic moment because I don't see the reasons as to why Sakura would consider it romantic (and by reasons I mean reasons not "Look at her face is luv").


 
Oh so Naruto's opinion doesn't matter now. 

And of course it wasn't mutual, Naruto was kind of busy trying to eat to think about love before she offered. 

But to deny that Kishimoto didn't intend that scene not to be romantic is foolish. For the thousandth time, he used some pretty cliche moments in there that dates back to early Hollywood. So to deny that is pretty ignorant.


And of course it wouldn't happen that way, that's how it is. But I'm just laughing my head off at people saying it's platonic and not romantic. However, if it was the other way around, it would've been romantic without a doubt. 


Kishimoto trolling? I told you people for years that he has people here on NF, and that other mangaka's also visit here. But you people thought I was blowing smoke. 



Hikui said:


> Who talked about interruption moments? I talked about Sakura not being shown that she's over Sasuke when it most be shown if she is going to fall for Naruto. Hell...if Kishimoto doesn't do that then it would seem like Sakura loves both romantically, and well that scenario is very crappy


 
Well gee, isn't that what her Databook 3 profile said? She's now in the position she had to choose one or the other, because she's falling in love with Naruto.

The scenario crappy? It's the staple of Love Triangle's my dear. It's been that way since Greek Times. 



Hikui said:


> It's suspense. (Just like Hinata's confession took this long even when we all knew she was going to).
> 
> And I never argued that Sakura has to develop by still loving Sasuke but that Kishimoto needs to state that she's over Sasuke for NaruSaku to happen or any other Sakura pairing. That's what you do in fiction, one cannot go and make assumptions like that. Just like people cannot go and say Sakura "IS" falling in love with Naruto when it isn't clear. You can say she might, but not that she is. Just like you can say she might be over Sasuke but not that she's over Sasuke since you have 0 evidence to back up your claim. She hasn't even bad mouthed Sasuke or said negative stuff about him or said that she considers him as a comrade.


 
Waiting for Sakura to say it again isn't suspenseful, because we know it's coming. What people are waiting for is what Sasuke has to say. And what's she going to do about Naruto.

And it is clear that Sakura's falling for Naruto, just people don't want to accept the moments.


----------



## AMtrack (Jun 4, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _XXXTurkey_ 





XXXTurkey said:


> Actually, in terms of meaningful conversations Hinata is at least the equal of most of the konoha 12 and beats a number of them, excluding those from team 7 for one obvious reason.  Put it this way, find me any meaningful conversation between Naruto and any of: Kiba, Shino, Ino, Chouji, Tenten.  And i don't think Naruto knows anything about Sakura's background (chiefly because Kishi hasn't supplied us with any information on her background, but still).



In terms of actual meaningful conversation you are totally correct.  I just dont think meaningful conversation is the only thing thats really important.  It pays to see how characters interact through casual conversation, and I really can't recall hinata and naruto having much of any.  I just don't think they "click" 





XXXTurkey said:


> @ bolded: *Yet*
> 
> And Sakura has expressed continued extreme romantic *dis*interest in Naruto.
> 
> And Naruto's supposed romantic "interest" in Sakura has extended only to spur-of-the-moment, poorly executed date requests and the desire to be fed by her.



This probably where most of the disagreement will be.  Namely, I think it has been made very clear Sakura has at least a budding romantic interest in Naruto.  Now of course, these "signs" are interpreted differently.  I may say "clue is obvious" when you might say "no clues at all".  

I woud also like to think that Naruto's romantic interest has matured to the point where he no longer really pursues it.  He is focused on much more important things, but the "interest", at least to me, is still visible through the way they interact.  They are very playful, gentle, and affectionate towards each other, moreso than any pair of characters in the manga...at least that i can recall.





XXXTurkey said:


> I disagree.  Shouting at or physically reprimanding Naruto does not work as a means of stopping him.  There's numerous examples.
> 
> Tsunade shouts at him all the time for calling her old.  He hasn't stopped doing that.  Sakura has reprimanded him for being perverted (using the sexy jutsu) and there's no sign of that stopping.  Shouting at him for being rude to Tsunade didn't work either.  When Iruka shouted at him for being stupid in class, that didn't make Naruto stop.
> 
> ...



Well, Pein had pretty much knocked Naruto silly at that point.  He didn't have much of a choice but to calm down.  But as far as the other stuff goes I can see your point.  I wasn't really referring to specifically yelling though.  There are times when Naruto's headstrong attitude requires sternness, rather than gentleness.  Tsunade has had to reprimand naruto this way, as has Kakashi and i *think* jiraiya.  Jiraiya is kinda fuzzy but I know Kakashi has had to do it numerous times.  My problem is I don't think Hinata can be stern with him ever.  She's not assertive enough.





XXXTurkey said:


> I'd love to see what evidence you have of intermarriage between Hyuuga members.  You say "based off of what has been shown in the manga", so what "in the manga" are you basing this assertion on?  The only "Hyuuga politics" we have seen have been in a flashback related to Hizashi and Hiashi.  Unless i've forgotten something...
> 
> Seriously though, phrases like "nuff said" aren't very useful, if only because it would seem that until this is all resolved there will never be "nuff said".  It also made me smile slightly how you said "nuff said" and then proceeded to say more...
> 
> Actually, i'm sorry, that's a bit mean of me...



Obviously I have no evidence.  I never really claimed to have any, for I speaking purely from a personal perspective.  Being that the Hyuuga are a royal family, it just made logical sense to me that they would keep the blood royal, so the bloodline would stay "pure".  Of course kishi never really explained bloodlines as far as marrying outside the bloodline goes, so there's not much to go off of.  Its just as likely that there is intermarriage as there is that there's not.  50/50 if you ask me.  And lol at the second part, no apology necessary.  I admit its pretty funny, but I type like I'm talking...so if i say nuff said and feel like saying more...i'll just do it.  Call it quirk 





XXXTurkey said:


> I'll refrain from showing you the numerous times their relationship has been developed and move straight onto the confession.  Kishimoto (the author) has added that scene, so he obviously feels there is enough development for Hinata to confess otherwise adding it would be completely random.  Hehe, i hear so many people shouting "but it is!" in response to that.  Have some respect for the author please.
> 
> Anyway, as you say, you could be wrong and i reckon you are.  But at least you're open to the idea you might be wrong, some people around here aren't.



Well, its not like Kishi hasn't pulled stuff out of his ass before, so its perfectly plausible, given the fact that him and hinata have very limited interaction.  To say "i love you" to someone you barely speak to or spend time with is a bit......sketch.  But this is probably where we'll infinitely disagree as well...because I feel that development was hinata development and not naruhina development.  I really feel that her whole crush is for sake of her own character development...as was the confession.  Nothing has had any real impact on naruto's character except maybe this confession.  We will see in later chapters.  Otherwise, I'm gonna have to say that all this so-called development is only for hinata, rather than the pairing.[/QUOTE]





XXXTurkey said:


> This is irrelevant.  Especially comparing this manga to other manga.  All of this is up to the author and it is his story.  Also, considering what he has given us so far it doesn't seem to matter that Hinata is a side character.



Well it is, I just felt like saying more.  A small point, but nevertheless it has an ounce of merit.  Shonen writers do tend to follow a formula.  I don't care to really argue this point though because I really just threw it out there as food for thought.





XXXTurkey said:


> The times they have interacted they have had a positive influence on each other.  And chemistry is a weird thing and practically undefinable.  Identifying it in real life is hard enough.  Identifying it between two fictional characters is near impossible and comes down to personal opinion.  I think they'd interact just fine.  Put it this way; confident boy, shy girl?  I've been in a relationship like that and there was plenty of chemistry .  But that's just my personal experience and as such i'll refer you back to what i said about personal opinion.



Well in my own personal experience, confident boy shy girl didnt really work out in the end.  Its great at first, because the shy one is feeding off the confident one.  But it tends to fizzle because one side tends to dominate the other.  Not in the sense of "bossing around" but in the sense that one relies on one more than the other.  I don't want to say "needy" but thats the most extreme form.   Again...personal opinion and personal experiences.





XXXTurkey said:


> I disagree (a lot) with you saying NS is the most likely but i ain't gonna flame you for it.  In fact, if someone has a go at you i'm totally willing to defend you.
> 
> Just keep it civil yourself, that's the best we can all do.
> 
> Have a good one.



Hey I'm all about being civil.  Flaming was never really my thing haha.  Obviously we disagree, so if anything we can agree to disagree.  I guess its still fun to debate for lulz, even though no one will really change their mind


----------



## Inuhanyou (Jun 4, 2009)

They aren't of course..not yet anyway, but that's what we're here to do..debate the validity of what's there, what isnt, and what could grow into more based on past interaction, characterization and scenario..

I'd agree personally that the "ramen scene" is overestimated in an NS sense, because it relies too much on conjecture.."oh look at her facial EXPRESSIONS!" "she's making a first of some sort in that barely seeable panel!", "Naruto talks about an atmosphere of some sort so the scene is automatically romantic, regardless of the fact that it was only his interpretation and not necessarily Sakura's!"

The flashback beforehand and what prompted that action of Sakura's to me is the thing people really want to look at if they want to make a case of ambiguous feelings in that scene, but that's just me.

In general though, i figure it to be an insult to Naruto's character, who builds up his bonds over time and plenty of effort, and Sakura's character as well who had so much time dedicated to her changing emotions for Naruto, from dislike to whatever it is now..just for someone to pass their relationship off as a joke or not anything serious, even if the possibility is there.


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## Kage (Jun 4, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> They aren't of course..not yet anyway, but that's what we're here to do..debate the validity of what's there, what isnt, and what could grow into more based on past interaction, characterization and scenario..


naturally but the urge to remind others of the still very one-sidedness of it *all* is strong from time to time 

in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter how much or how little we debate the validity of the pairs if it continues to remain unrequited.don't ask me why i bother anyway lord knows how well what's been given by kishi thus far has developed for the potentials here 

a part of me thinks kishi just might keep it that way.



> In general though, i figure it to be an insult to Naruto's character, who builds up his bonds over time and plenty of effort, and Sakura's character as well who had so much time dedicated to her changing emotions for Naruto, from dislike to whatever it is now..just for someone to pass their relationship off as a joke or not anything serious, even if the possibility is there.


well i can't really talk since i'm under the firm belief that sasusaku is one big joke and nothing can dissuade me from that  but it's not like we have awesome development between just the two of them in regards to how they act and effect each other, platonic or otherwise, so i can't feel bad about it. that's the only reason narusaku is spared the same treatment from me and why i bother to defend it if you could call it that on occasion.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Jun 4, 2009)

the difference between NaruSaku and SasuSaku for me though is that unlike impartial observation of the big three, its more like a comparison between the relationships themsevles..its been proven that Naruto's effect on Sakura and Sakura's effect on him have been pretty positive for their overall development whereas SasuSaku in general as we know has been painted by continous strokes of naivete, ignorance, selfishness..and pretty much every negative aspect out there  while at the same time hardly changing either character for the better (heck even taking one back multiple notches) 

That to me seals SasuSaku's "standing" in any kind of situation, nobody should have to lower themselves in order to pursue a relationship like that..especially if one part of the relationship wants nothing to do with it


----------



## Kage (Jun 4, 2009)

Inuhanyou said:


> the difference between NaruSaku and SasuSaku for me though is that unlike impartial observation of the big three, its more like a comparison between the relationships themsevles.*.its been proven that Naruto's effect on Sakura and Sakura's effect on him have been pretty positive for their overall development whereas SasuSaku in general as we know has been painted by continous strokes of naivete, ignorance, selfishness..and pretty much every negative aspect out there  while at the same time hardly changing either character for the better* (heck every taking one back multiple notches)
> 
> That to me seals SasuSaku's "standing" in any kind of situation, nobody should have to lower themselves in order to pursue a relationship like that..especially if one part of the relationship wants nothing to do with it



crap. i forgot to mention that above. effect it one thing, the _type_ of effect is another. sakura's infatuation was pretty damming to her character and it wasn't doing much for sasuke either not when he didn't separate her from a level of importance he connected with his team.


----------



## XXXTurkey (Jun 4, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 






Forlong said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Expressions again?

How about when Sakura talks to Sai when he's drawing? Err (*checks chapter*), chapter 287. Page 7. Her eyes are half lidded and you could say she has an "intrigued" look on her face. Maybe she has romantic feelings for Sai! But that is just a stupid assumption to make because the context of the scene isn't romantic. And neither is this so called NaruSaku scene.

In fact, that page in chapter 287 illustrates something else perfectly. The issue of focus. If Sakura feeding him, and her reaction afterwards, was so important then why didn't Kishi do what he *always* does during an important moment and focus on an expression. Or *anything* in that scene. I mean, look at the page i referenced earlier:

Sai states that none of his pictures have titles. Then we're given a close up of Sakura's face. Then he states he has no emotions and we are given a further close up of Sakura's eye. Throughout this story the "eye close up" signifies something is important to the character focused on. Probably an eye/window/soul thing.

Sakura isn't focused on at all in the so called NaruSaku scene. We are given none of the signs by Kishi that normally indicate an important moment. The important scene was above the phantom NaruSaku moment, when Naruto said they we're getting closer to Sasuke.

And "One possiblity is that she rebuffs his advances to force him to make more. That might be it"?

Please, re-read that again and think about that for me because that is the most convoluted argument i have ever heard. "She says 'no' because she wants him to ask again"? Surely 'pardon' or, 'could you repeat that' are more appropriate if she wants him to ask again. On the other hand, if she is interested in him then what is wrong with a more conventional 'yes'?

Unless Sakura's playing "hard to get", the cheeky little girl. Because she's that romantically precocious...

Somehow, i think not.



> *How much time does he have to plan a proper date?* Also they go to Ikarachu Ramen (spelling?) together quite a few times.


 
Two and a half years and the entire time he was injured. And i would take eating at Ichiraku ramen more seriously if they were alone and not there as team 7.



> You mean that one time just before he *stopped* using it?


 
Konohamaru has referenced the sexy jutsu since so Kishimoto acknowledges that is a part of Naruto's character that has not yet disappeared.



> Also there's this scene. Naruto gets a bad idea, Sakura tells him so. He doesn't do it. No screaming. No punching. I believe _that_ was what he/she meant!
> 
> The word "control" was never used there. The fact is, if Naruto is about to do something stupid, could Hinata stop him? I don't think so.


 
What i was saying was that a calm approach has been more effective than shouting or violence. I provided evidence of that and Hinata has shown she can provide that sort of approach. Of course, Sakura has too but i was saying that the argument that Sakura is the *only* one who can stop Naruto from doing something stupid, or that Hinata can't, is not a very good one.



> Yeah, all TWO NaruHina scenes.
> Are you seriously using Kishi-sensei writing style as your deffense? That's like making a house of sticks on sand! None of his other love confessions were requited. You can say "Naruto isn't Sasuke" all you want, doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know Hinata well and is interested in someone else.


 
Of course i'm using the author's writing style. It's an incredibly important factor to take into account. Do you disagree?

And on your other point, i'm not using Kishimoto's style as my only argument for NaruHina. I've said that i think Naruto and Hinata know each other well enough and that i don't think Naruto is seriously pursuing Sakura. See above reference to unplanned dates (among other things).



> What are you talking about? The last time he had Hinata in a story arc, she had what? Three lines? Of _no_ importance. Yeah, he's sure proving how important she'll be to the plot.


 
Are you referencing the "find itachi arc"?

Y'know, i could take a leaf out of your book and show you the one and only genuine smile (possibly the only smile at all) that Naruto shows in that arc. Chapter 355, page 4. It's at Hinata.

But i don't use that as serious evidence because that could mean *anything*. Facial expressions aren't evidence unless we get some idea of what the person is feeling at the time (flashbacks and such) or there is sufficient context within the scene to make it clear (expressions at VotE are pretty clear due to context for example).



> As are the far more fequent NaruSaku interactions.


 
Fair enough, frequent interaction. But you seem to think that any interaction between them is romantic. I think your constant focus on facial expressions is proof of that. There are more important factors to consider. Context, what is being said, who is with them etc etc. There is more to a romantic scene than two people being in the same place.



> Chemistry [*kem*-_uh_-stree] _n_
> 3: The interaction of one personality with another.
> 4: Sympathetic understanding.
> 
> ...


 
Knowing the dictionary definition of something like "chemistry" does not mean you understand it. Knowing something and understanding it are very different.

And i have no idea what the whole "meaning of life" thing was about... although... i could add my input if you like?

42?


----------



## Forlong (Jun 4, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





XXXTurkey said:


> Expressions again?
> 
> How about when Sakura talks to Sai when he's drawing?  Err (*checks chapter*), chapter 287.  Page 7.  Her eyes are half lidded and you could say she has an "intrigued" look on her face.  Maybe she has romantic feelings for Sai!  But that is just a stupid assumption to make because the context of the scene isn't romantic.  And neither is this so called NaruSaku scene.


You didn't quit have the right page.  But you do have a point.  Judging from her statement here, I'd say the look is sly, almost teasing.  So, her having that expression here does have a little support for NaruSaku, but I'll admit it's not all that strong.



XXXTurkey said:


> In fact, that page in chapter 287 illustrates something else perfectly.  The issue of focus.  If Sakura feeding him, and her reaction afterwards, was so important then why didn't Kishi do what he *always* does during an important moment and focus on an expression.


I never brought up her reaction to Sai's stupidity.



XXXTurkey said:


> Sai states that none of his pictures have titles.  Then we're given a close up of Sakura's face.  Then he states he has no emotions and we are given a further close up of Sakura's eye.  Throughout this story the "eye close up" signifies something is important to the character focused on.  Probably an eye/window/soul thing.


No.  Kishi-sensei did that because it looks cool.



XXXTurkey said:


> And "One possiblity is that she rebuffs his advances to force him to make more. That might be it"?
> 
> Please, re-read that again and think about that for me because that is the most convoluted argument i have ever heard.  "She says 'no' because she wants him to ask again"?  Surely 'pardon' or, 'could you repeat that' are more appropriate if she wants him to ask again.  On the other hand, if she is interested in him then what is wrong with a more conventional 'yes'?
> 
> ...


I thought I made it clear that I meant she was playing "hard to get".  And I did use the word "might".  I don't feel it's worth arguing over.



XXXTurkey said:


> Two and a half years and the entire time he was injured.  And i would take eating at Ichiraku ramen more seriously if they were alone and not there as team 7.


I thought I capped this arguement.  Naruto has placed more importance on finding Sasuke.  Before you say "so Sasuke's more important to him", let me remind you that he _knows_ finding Sasuke is important to Sakura.  So, he's still keeping her in mind.
Also, Naruto is more of a spur-of-the-momment kind of guy.  Maybe he doesn't think he needs to plan out a date beforehand.
Also what _would_ be proper date in the Leaf Village.  The only places I've seen in the manga and anime are quite a bit like that Ramen place they keep going.  So, that seems to be a proper date.



XXXTurkey said:


> What i was saying was that a calm approach has been more effective than shouting or violence.  I provided evidence of that and Hinata has shown she can provide that sort of approach.  Of course, Sakura has too but i was saying that the argument that Sakura is the *only* one who can stop Naruto from doing something stupid, or that Hinata can't, is not a very good one.


I don't recall Hinata ever stopping Naruto (or Kiba for another referance) from doing something stupid.  She can't even form a sentance arround him.  It was cute when you were 12, Hinata, now it's just annoying.



XXXTurkey said:


> Of course i'm using the author's writing style.  It's an incredibly important factor to take into account.  Do you disagree?


Which only makes NaruSaku more likely, concidering how much rejection is in this manga.  Oh, but Hinata can't be rejected because she's the most overrated character in this manga. 



XXXTurkey said:


> I've said that i think Naruto and Hinata know each other well enough and that i don't think Naruto is seriously pursuing Sakura.


Then by your own logic, Sakura never seriously pursued Sasuke, and Hinata doesn't seriously persue Naruto.  All because their efforts are unplanned and ineffective.  What do you expect from 16-year-olds?



XXXTurkey said:


> Are you referencing the "find itachi arc"?
> 
> Y'know, i could take a leaf out of your book and show you the one and only genuine smile (possibly the only smile at all) that Naruto shows in that arc.  Chapter 355, page 4.  It's at Hinata.


Oh, this?  I was expecting a lot more than that.  I was hoping for Hinata to at least _try_ and talk to Naruto, but no.  This doesn't make things look good for Hinata's future as a character in this manga.



XXXTurkey said:


> Fair enough, frequent interaction.  But you seem to think that any interaction between them is romantic.  I think your constant focus on facial expressions is proof of that.  There are more important factors to consider.  Context, what is being said, who is with them etc etc.  There is more to a romantic scene than two people being in the same place.


I don't.  I haven't pulled any part 1 scenes out (unless my memory has failed me).  That's because part 2 is enough.  You keep saying NaruSaku is ambiguous, but it's nowhere _near_ as ambiguous as NaruHina.






XXXTurkey said:


> Knowing the dictionary definition of something like "chemistry" does not mean you understand it.  Knowing something and understanding it are very different.
> 
> And i have no idea what the whole "meaning of life" thing was about... although... i could add my input if you like?
> 
> 42?



I understood.  I just felt like making a joke to ease the tention. 

42?  That's crazy.  Everyone knows the meaning of life is "cheese".  Maybe it's 42 different kinds of cheese...


----------



## AMtrack (Jun 4, 2009)

Ok, I have another point to make thats probably been raised before, but since it comes from the manga I have to tag it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



  Hinata's confession may not necessarily be as romantic as people are making it out to be.  If memory serves me correctly she used "daisuki" to convey her feelings...rather than "aishiteru".  Daisuki, in japanese, is a way to say that you like someone a LOT.  Commonly this can read as love, however, it is not as romantic as aishiteru.  This is important because daisuki can be used for nearly all forms of love:  romantic, familial, love between friends, love from admiration, etc etc.  So while its safe to say she loves naruto, it may not necessarily be as romantic as people are suggesting.  

Aishiteru is a word used among lovers, or to express deep romantic feelings.  Since this word wasn't used, I'm going to assume that hinata's feelings do not run this deep.  Now if she did use this word, and my memory totally failed, then I wasted a lot of time...but its worth noting the differences anyway.  Manga translators obviously translated what she said as just "love" but like I said, daisuki isn't typically used for romance.  Its more used to convey a "crush" or a very strong bond that would equate to a love:  friendship, comrades, family, etc etc.  Just food for thought.


----------



## Kek (Jun 4, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Ok, I have another point to make thats probably been raised before, but since it comes from the manga I have to tag it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



If I remember correctly, aishiteru is used by people in serious relationships, usually between adults, which Naruto and Hinata are not in. So I would not expect Hinata to use it to describe her feelings. Regardless, Hinata loves Naruto.


----------



## 王志鍵 (Jun 4, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Ok, I have another point to make thats probably been raised before, but since it comes from the manga I have to tag it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Expressing love through words can only go as far as saying "I love you". Expressing love through actions can go beyond that.


----------



## Forlong (Jun 4, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Ok, I have another point to make thats probably been raised before, but since it comes from the manga I have to tag it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


You'd better lock your door and sleep with one eye open.  NaruHina shippers ain't going to like that.



BruceLeefan said:


> Expressing love through words can only go as far as saying "I love you". Expressing love through actions can go beyond that.



In that case, how do Sakura's actions mean nothing, but Hinata's mean everything?


----------



## gabzilla (Jun 4, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Ok, I have another point to make thats probably been raised before, but since it comes from the manga I have to tag it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It's unlikely you'll find a teenager using "aishiteru" in a _shonen_ manga.

I would like to know if you'd say the same if Sakura was the one saying "daisuki" towards Naruto.


----------



## 王志鍵 (Jun 4, 2009)

Forlong said:


> In that case, how do Sakura's actions mean nothing, but Hinata's mean everything?


I was talking about Hinata's confession, and how saying 大好き　instead  of　愛してる wouldn't make it less romantic. It all depends on how it is said through actions, emotions, or whatever. 
Sakura wasn't even the one that made that confession so I don't know why you brought her up.

Edit:
Btw let me add that  Kishimoto could have easily put Sakura in that situation to save Naruto, but instead he choose Hinata.Either he really wants Naruhina to happen, or he just likes putting himself in tougher situtations.


----------



## Kage (Jun 4, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> I was talking about Hinata's confession, and how saying 大好き　instead  of　愛してる wouldn't make it less romantic. *It all depends on how it is said through actions, emotions, or whatever. *
> Sakura wasn't even the one that made that confession so I don't know why you brought her up.



funny, yamato seems to think the same.

as far as whether "Daisuki" or "Ashiteru" is used goes i agree that it doesn't really matter. there's more then one way to say the same thing and in the end it's more important what's done about it then what's said.

he brought up sakura because you were talking about actions _not_ words.


----------



## AMtrack (Jun 5, 2009)

Ehh my point is that daisuki and aishiteru are NOT the same thing.  They can be...sorta...but they are really not.  And the reason you dont hear aishiteru in a shonen manga is because this isn't shojo.  Romance isn't really the focus of shonen, and is largely unaddressed.  Its just that fandoms have to talk about it out of pure interest....and authors, knowing this, often throw out fanservice to keep the hype for the manga going.  Occasionally there are romantic subplots, but there's very little actual romance involved.  Just vague hitns so everyone can make debate threads like these and have another reason to await the next chapter.  

Daisuki is, literally, to like a lot.  In english, we substitute this as love...but its not the same as being in love.  If you like food a lot, you would say tabemono ga daisuki desu:  I love food.  Obviously this wouldn't translate as you having romantic feelings for food.  If you are talking to a family member, you would say daisuki desu:  I love you.  Again this does not have romantic tones.  You wouldn't really say aishiteru to a family member because that is exclusively heavy romantic.

Now daisuki can be "romantic" in the sense of a crush.  Boy really really likes girl.  Its not really boy is in love with girl...because "love" is a pretty heavy word to be throwing around, especially in japanese culture.  I'm getting into spoiler territory so...


*Spoiler*: __ 



If you guys want to talk about context, Hinata's confession and use of daisuki says a few things to me.  For one, she has only really admired naruto from a distance.  There is no way, then, that daisuki could believably have a romantic undertones because of the fact that she's never really spent much time with him.  They are close, but no closer than Naruto is to Kiba, Chouji, Rock Lee, etc etc.  I can see her having a crush on him, but in no way does that = love.  Given the situation, with her putting her life on the line and all, I believe she does love him..just not romantically.  Its the kind of love that could exist between friends, master and pupil, family, etc.  This kind of love is enough to make anyone put their life on the line...and is just as powerful.    And yes, the kind that can exist from admiration.




What if it was Sakura?  I'd probably say something a bit different, but the meaning would still be the same.  Sakura's relationship with naruto is much much closer than hinata's relationship with naruto...making the prospect of being "in love" more believable given the context of naruto and sakura's relationship.  However....I wouldn't necessarily label as a love confession.  I'd be pretty divided on that one and would have to see more evidence.  

Anyway I didnt want to go into all that...i just wanted it to be food for thought.  Unfortunately I had 4 people on it in no time flat lol.


----------



## Kage (Jun 5, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Ehh my point is that daisuki and aishiteru are NOT the same thing.  They can be...sorta...but they are really not.  And the reason you dont hear aishiteru in a shonen manga is because this isn't shojo.  Romance isn't really the focus of shonen, and is largely unaddressed.  Its just that fandoms have to talk about it out of pure interest....and authors, knowing this, often throw out fanservice to keep the hype for the manga going.  Occasionally there are romantic subplots, but there's very little actual romance involved.  Just vague hitns so everyone can make debate threads like these and have another reason to await the next chapter.


i get what you're saying but in a sense of the word both are used as affectionate terms/terms of endearment is the only point i was trying to make. there are no such serious romantic relationships between any of the rookie nine that would require the use of ashiteru. more so in the case of shounen. but people will take what they can get so it doesn't matter if 'daisuki' isn't as strong a term just as long as the idea of love can be understood and validated through actions and can, of course, be interpreted as one see's fit.


----------



## AMtrack (Jun 5, 2009)

^Aa, ok I gotcha now.  We totally understand each other then.  I guess it really does ultimately come down to how the context is interpreted.  You're right though, in a shonen it really doesn't matter because ppl will take what they can get.  Anyway, I think i'm done pissing off fandoms for the time being...but someone else is more than welcome to bring up something interesting.  Just no more linguistics, i think we're kinda burnt on that subject.


----------



## gabzilla (Jun 5, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Ehh my point is that daisuki and aishiteru are NOT the same thing.  They can be...sorta...but they are really not.  And the reason you dont hear aishiteru in a shonen manga is because this isn't shojo.  Romance isn't really the focus of shonen, and is largely unaddressed.  Its just that fandoms have to talk about it out of pure interest....and authors, knowing this, often throw out fanservice to keep the hype for the manga going.  Occasionally there are romantic subplots, but there's very little actual romance involved.  Just vague hitns so everyone can make debate threads like these and have another reason to await the next chapter.




*Spoiler*: __ 



So a love confession followed by almost death is fanservice?




No offense, but the fanservice excuse is kinda old. And pretty silly if you bear in mind which are the most popular fandoms in Japan, which is the fanbase that really matters. If Kishimoto was trying to please the fanbase, he would have made NejiHina or KibaHina canon and Sakura would be trying to get in Kakashi's pants.



AMtrack said:


> Daisuki is, literally, to like a lot.  In english, we substitute this as love...but its not the same as being in love.  If you like food a lot, you would say tabemono ga daisuki desu:  I love food.  Obviously this wouldn't translate as you having romantic feelings for food.  If you are talking to a family member, you would say daisuki desu:  I love you.  Again this does not have romantic tones.  You wouldn't really say aishiteru to a family member because that is exclusively heavy romantic.
> 
> Now daisuki can be "romantic" in the sense of a crush.  Boy really really likes girl.  Its not really boy is in love with girl...because "love" is a pretty heavy word to be throwing around, especially in japanese culture.  I'm getting into spoiler territory so...
> 
> ...



The context itself should be hint enough. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



If she just admired him, she would have told him so and never said she loved him.

But if a confession of love that was in a chapter titled "_Confession_" is not hint enough, I don't see how discussing it will ever change your mind, not even if NH ends up being canon.






AMtrack said:


> What if it was Sakura?  I'd probably say something a bit *different*, but the meaning would still be the same.  Sakura's relationship with naruto is much much closer than hinata's relationship with naruto...making the prospect of being "in love" more believable given the context of naruto and sakura's relationship.  However....I wouldn't necessarily label as a love confession.  I'd be pretty divided on that one and would have to see more evidence.



Different how? Because they have more screentime? The people in Konoha admire and love Naruto even if they barely know him. By the end of part 1 Gaara is one of his best friends and they barely exchanged words. You are basically saying the only person that can realistically love Naruto is one that shares more screentime with him.

ShikaNaru is canon, guys. 

What would be a _valid_ love confession? Hinata saying "aishiteru" which is rarely - if ever - used in shounen, then telling Naruto her feelings are romantic and she wants to bear his babies?



AMtrack said:


> Anyway I didnt want to go into all that...i just wanted it to be food for thought.  Unfortunately I had 4 people on it in no time flat lol.



You shouldn't be surprised. 

If I said that by saying "I like Sakura" in reality Naruto meant "I admire her" I'm sure people would not so politely disagree..


----------



## AMtrack (Jun 5, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





gabzilla said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I believe it was Hinata's development.  Thats it.  Not naruhina development, but purely hinata development.  I've said this 1000 times.  But in general ambiguous situations between characters are fanservice.  Filler writers do the same thing.  I don't see how you think there wouldn't be fanservice when romance isn't even the focus of shonen.  ShikaTema??  Fanservice.  Notice how that had no plot bearing whatsoever, and totally disintegrated within a few weeks.  And form what i've seen, crack pairings aren't always addressed.  Kubo, however, does throw bones in that direction though.  UlquiHime anyone?  Loads of fanservice.





gabzilla said:


> The context itself should be hint enough.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm unreasonable.  Unlike most fandoms, I'm actually sensible.  I have no problem with NaruHina becoming, as i have nothing against.  Stop acting like I'm some kinda overly stubborn shipper.  I dont even consider myself a shipper.  So please, take it down a notch.

Anyway I forgot about the chapter title, so thanks for bringing that up.  As I said before, I'm not saying it wasn't a love confession.  All I was saying is that there could possibly be other meanings behind it based on the language and context of the situation.  And I wasn't even grasping at obscurity...other possibilities aren't far off base.  But if I mention "other possibilities" to NH fandom they act as if I killed their babies.  Why so serious?





gabzilla said:


> Different how? Because they have more screentime? The people in Konoha admire and love Naruto even if they barely know him. By the end of part 1 Gaara is one of his best friends and they barely exchanged words. You are basically saying the only person that can realistically love Naruto is one that shares more screentime with him.
> 
> ShikaNaru is canon, guys.



Here is what you did.  Rather than just simply asking me what I meant, you answered for me and then argued against a completely contrived point I didn't even make.  Not only that, but you tacked on hyperbole afterwards.  No offense, but that was kinda silly.

To answer your question, no not because of screentime.  It doesn't take a genius to see that naruto and sakura have a very very close relationship.  Just look at everything they've been through together.  Sakura has been bawwing about how she can't do enough for him, and is willing to do anything to keep him from sacrificing everything for her sake.  She even went as far as to say she'll save sasuke FOR him....not even for her but for him.  Thats a special bond that doesn't exist anywhere in the manga, save for Sasuke and Naruto.

Long story short, Sakura and Naruto's relationship is much closer and more intimate (read: in the sense of closeness, im not speaking romance necessarily).  That isn't even arguable, so yes, the context of Sakura saying it and Hinata saying it would be different.  But obviously, they could both mean the same thing.  



gabzilla said:


> What would be a _valid_ love confession? Hinata saying "aishiteru" which is rarely - if ever - used in shounen, then telling Naruto her feelings are romantic and she wants to bear his babies?



Well duh.  Minus saying her feelings are romantic because that would be a tad redundant after aishiteru.  But that was very good, glad you understand.

In all seriousness I wasn't saying her confession wasn't valid.  I just think that under the circumstances, and given their interaction, its not very believable.  Thats why I feel like it's a contrived plot device...but it was also great character development.  But if its a confession its a confession.  I'm not saying its NOT a confession...I was just trying to give food for thought and have everyone try to look at it from many perspectives before going ZOMG canon.  

(Today's chapter can't be discussed until monday, so I will have to leave this out.)








gabzilla said:


> You shouldn't be surprised.
> 
> If I said that by saying "I like Sakura" in reality Naruto meant "I admire her" I'm sure people would not so politely disagree..



I'm not surprised at all...I expected as much.  For some reason ppl take this pairing shit way seriously.  I dont even care how it ends up in canon, so long as its done well.  This thread is about what is most likely to be canon..not which pairing you love most.  Ppl get that all twisted though, which is why everyone's panties are in a bunch.  But yes, ppl would react the same way had you done the same thing.  Rest assured, I would not be one of those ppl jumping down your throat.  As I said, I'm sensible.


----------



## gabzilla (Jun 5, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





AMtrack said:


> No, I believe it was Hinata's development.  Thats it.  Not naruhina development, but purely hinata development.  I've said this 1000 times.



It can't be both?



AMtrack said:


> But in general ambiguous situations between characters are fanservice.  Filler writers do the same thing.  I don't see how you think there wouldn't be fanservice when romance isn't even the focus of shonen.  ShikaTema??  Fanservice.  Notice how that had no plot bearing whatsoever, and totally disintegrated within a few weeks.  And form what i've seen, crack pairings aren't always addressed.  Kubo, however, does throw bones in that direction though.



Once again, why would Kishimoto include Hinata's confession as a form of fanservice when 1) Naruhina is not that popular in Japan and 2) Hinata is not _that_ popular in Japan either. If he wanted a plot device and at the same time please the fanbase, he would have used Iruka, not Hinata.



AMtrack said:


> UlquiHime anyone?  Loads of fanservice.



Naruto isn't Bleach. And once again, you are comparing NH to a pairing that is incredibly popular in Japan.



AMtrack said:


> Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm unreasonable.



Never said you were.



AMtrack said:


> Unlike most fandoms, I'm actually sensible.  I have no problem with NaruHina becoming, as i have nothing against.  Stop acting like I'm some kinda overly stubborn shipper.  I dont even consider myself a shipper.  So please, take it down a notch.



I know nothing of your pairing preferences and I don't really care. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it.



AMtrack said:


> Anyway I forgot about the chapter title, so thanks for bringing that up.



You are quite welcome.



AMtrack said:


> As I said before, I'm not saying it wasn't a love confession.  All I was saying is that there could possibly be other meanings behind it based on the language and context of the situation.  And I wasn't even grasping at obscurity...other possibilities aren't far off base.



Which other possibilities? Admiration? 



AMtrack said:


> But if I mention "other possibilities" to *NH fandom they act as if I killed their babies*.  Why so serious?



Who is jumping to conclusions now? I'd like to see which are these other possibilities.



AMtrack said:


> Here is what you did.  Rather than just simply asking me what I meant, you answered for me and then argued against a completely contrived point I didn't even make.  Not only that, but you tacked on hyperbole afterwards.  No offense, but that was kinda silly.



But silly is fun. 



AMtrack said:


> To answer your question, no not because of screentime.  It doesn't take a genius to see that naruto and sakura have a very very close relationship.  Just look at everything they've been through together.  Sakura has been bawwing about how she can't do enough for him, and is willing to do anything to keep him from sacrificing everything for her sake.  She even went as far as to say she'll save sasuke FOR him....not even for her but for him.  Thats a special bond that doesn't exist anywhere in the manga, save for Sasuke and Naruto.



If that's the case, we could say Sasuke is the only one that can really love Naruto. Not only is his bond with him stronger, they have more screentime.



AMtrack said:


> Long story short, Sakura and Naruto's relationship is much closer and more intimate (read: in the sense of closeness, im not speaking romance necessarily).  That isn't even arguable, so yes, the context of Sakura saying it and Hinata saying it would be different.  But obviously, they could both mean the same thing.



Interesting. 



AMtrack said:


> Well duh.  Minus saying her feelings are romantic because that would be a tad redundant after aishiteru.  But that was very good, glad you understand.



Are you sure? Maybe she should be very very specific about it. Just in case he believes she just admires him or likes him very much.



AMtrack said:


> In all seriousness I wasn't saying her confession wasn't valid.  I just think that under the circumstances, and given their interaction, its not very believable.  Thats why I feel like it's a contrived plot device...but it was also great character development.  But if its a confession its a confession.  I'm not saying its NOT a confession...I was just trying to give food for thought and have everyone try to look at it from many perspectives before going ZOMG canon.



I don't remember saying NH was canon because of the confession. It's more likely, yes. But far from being canon. Apart from AsuKure, no pairings are canon right now. And fans shouldn't celebrate beforehand.



AMtrack said:


> (Today's chapter can't be discussed until monday, so I will have to leave this out.)



Shame. 



AMtrack said:


> I'm not surprised at all...I expected as much.  For some reason ppl take this pairing shit way seriously.  I dont even care how it ends up in canon, so long as its done well.  This thread is about what is most likely to be canon..*not which pairing you love most.*  Ppl get that all twisted though, which is why everyone's panties are in a bunch.  But yes, ppl would react the same way had you done the same thing.  Rest assured, I would not be one of those ppl jumping down your throat.



If that was the case, I would be defending SakuHina and KakaSaku not Naruhina. 






AMtrack said:


> As I said, I'm sensible.



You are posting in a pairing thread. You can't be sensible.


----------



## AMtrack (Jun 5, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





gabzilla said:


> It can't be both?



Sure it can, I just don't personally think so 





gabzilla said:


> Once again, why would Kishimoto include Hinata's confession as a form of fanservice when 1) Naruhina is not that popular in Japan and 2) Hinata is not _that_ popular in Japan either. If he wanted a plot device and at the same time please the fanbase, he would have used Iruka, not Hinata.



I told you, I dont think its fanservice.  I think it was just a way for kishi to develop hinata's character since he doesn't do anything with her.  That and I think it was a contrived plot device so naruto would go KN8.  The fanservice comment was general, sorry for the miscommunication.





gabzilla said:


> Naruto isn't Bleach. And once again, you are comparing NH to a pairing that is incredibly popular in Japan.



I'm not, because NH isnt even a crack pairing, and I was making a comparison of pairings in general.  Not really NH specifically.





gabzilla said:


> Never said you were.



Then I misunderstood you, my apologies.





gabzilla said:


> I know nothing of your pairing preferences and I don't really care. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it.



You don't care ?  Lol Quite alright, I just thought I would make it clear anyway.




gabzilla said:


> Which other possibilities? Admiration?



Thats what I think.  The best parallel I can draw is kinda how sakura and ino really liked sasuke.  But hinata's is more genuine and less superficial.  A crappy parallel but I think you can see more or less what I mean.  Admiration can stir very strong emotions.  Thats actually the only other possibility I can see though besides just flat out loving him.  Maybe its a mixture of both.





gabzilla said:


> Who is jumping to conclusions now? I'd like to see which are these other possibilities.



I'm not, do you really want me to copy/paste some of the responses I've gotten?  I shouldn't say all of NH fandom is like that but I've run into a lot of bashing/insults and just really immature behavior.  Then again, all fandoms have people like that.  NH is just more vocal at the moment.  And by NH i mean the immature ppl...not the whole fandom.





gabzilla said:


> But silly is fun.



This is truth.





gabzilla said:


> If that's the case, we could say Sasuke is the only one that can really love Naruto. Not only is his bond with him stronger, they have more screentime.



I wouldn't disagree, but I'd say they'd probably have a more brotherly thing going.  No doubt their bond is the strongest though.  However, they are the only ones to share a kiss.  Maybe SasuNaru is canon 





gabzilla said:


> Interesting.



Glad you like it!





gabzilla said:


> Are you sure? Maybe she should be very very specific about it. Just in case he believes she just admires him or likes him very much.



Point taken.  Sometimes I think naruto is too dense for romance anyway.  She's better off hitting up Sakura...at least she understands this sort of thing.





gabzilla said:


> I don't remember saying NH was canon because of the confession. It's more likely, yes. But far from being canon. Apart from AsuKure, no pairings are canon right now. And fans shouldn't celebrate beforehand.



Totally agree, again my bad for the misunderstanding.





gabzilla said:


> Shame.



I know right...sometimes I hate these rules haha





gabzilla said:


> If that was the case, I would be defending SakuHina and KakaSaku not Naruhina.



KakaSaku??  Eww...Pedo-Sensei for the loss.  SakuHina??  Approved.








gabzilla said:


> You are posting in a pairing thread. You can't be sensible.



ROFL...genius


----------



## Afalstein (Jun 8, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



...

I can't believe no one has commented on the latest manga page yet.  I mean, I knew we weren't allowed to on Friday-Saturday-Sunday, but I figured once Monday hit this place would be flooded.

Since it appears I'm the first one to comment on it, let me first say I'm not going to ignore the significance of Naruto's return and what happened.  I AM going to say that it's not important in the way that NS view it, but I'm not going to say it's unimportant.  That is arguably the most moved I've ever seen Sakura, with possibly the exception of the Sai Sasuke arc when she first saw Sasuke after all those years.  She's obviously going through a lot of feelings right now.

Clearly this is NOT follow-up to Hinata's confession.  I say that not because it's a NS moment as opposed to an NH moment, but simply because Naruto doesn't even talk to Hinata.  There's little reference to the incident, this scene might largely have gone the same way without it.  (Unless you argue that Hinata's action was what prompted Sakura's)  That's part of what makes it so disapointing, for the past few weeks everyone's been saying "we'll have to wait and see what happens once Naruto gets back to the village.  Well, he's back, and it doesn't follow up on the confession.  I still think there will be follow-up, after all, there was for Sakura's confession and Lee's, but it isn't here.

I can't take away the fact, though, that the first major interaction upon returning to the village is between Sakura and Naruto.  That is significant.  I could blame it on the fact that Kishi isn't really interested in romance, but that wouldn't explain why he chose to include the scene.

Well, what is the scene about?  What is the overall context?  I would say it is about the realization of NAruto's dream of being acknowledged by the whole village.  That's the only direct reference to Naruto's past declarations that we get.  And here it is realized.  Everyone is turning out to greet and thank him, not just his friends in the Konoha 11.

Sakura is-arguably-Naruto's sternest critic in the village, or at least in the younger generation.  Not that she thinks him a demon like the rest of the village, or even that she dislikes him, but she usually is one of the first to point out what Naruto is doing wrong.  Like here, when she punches him for being reckless.  That's a good thing, after all, someone has to keep Naruto in line.  But the point is, she's one of the people who's hard on him and is always pushing him.  She's made it clear that she thinks he's strong, and she does admire his dedication--reference her speech to Sai--but she's never told him so herself.  She's always telling him what he should have done as opposed to what he did.  

So in this context of Naruto being accepted by the entire village, even Sakura, the one who's always been pointing out what he's done wrong, says he did a good job.  Sakura's really the last of the Konoha 11 to do something like this.  Neji, Shikamaru, Lee, even Sai, have long openly admired Naruto, but Sakura's kept it to herself up till now.  She thanks him, openly.  In my mind, the point Kishi is trying to get across is not so much romantic as fulfillment.  Naruto has fulfilled his dream of being accepted by the entire village, including the one girl who's always been hard to impress.  

I can't absolutely say it's NOT a romantic scene.  Certainly the potential is there, and it could be taken as one.  I'm saying it's not necessarily one, and that Kishi might have a different purpose in mind when he wrote it.  Certainly Hinata doesn't seem worried in the strip, though that could simply be the sacrificial dedication of knowing the one you love is happy(Like Naruto's PoaL).  And Naruto isn't hugging Sakura back.  That's because he's actually shocked still, of course, but it's an interesting omission.  It would be easy for Kishi to have him slowly relax and pull Sakura into a hug, making it much more romantic.  Instead, he follows up the scene with pictures of all of Naruto's friends looking on and smiling, making it more a communal than an intimate moment.




So.  That's my say.  I expect many to disagree.


----------



## JERITROLL (Jun 8, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> ...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Yeah, it is weird. But let's face it, it's kinda hard to debate against it. (I'm not saying it's undeniable as a cannon-making moment, because that's far from the truth, but it's hard to blow it off.) Anyways, let's get to it.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Totally agree with everything here, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 I expect a few panels to follow up the confession myself, though I don't know when. Hopefully soon, I'd like to see this taken care of, TBQH.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I can't take away the fact, though, that the first major interaction upon returning to the village is between Sakura and Naruto.  That is significant.  I could blame it on the fact that Kishi isn't really interested in romance, but that wouldn't explain why he chose to include the scene.




*Spoiler*: __ 



 I don't recall Kishi saying he's disinterested in it, but that he just sucks at it XD. If he wasn't interested, we wouldn't have 437 either, so anyone that would use that argument would be totally ignorant (not meant to be aimed at you, BTW). He's probably put it off for a while because he wants to make it right. That, and he wanted to place focus on other things that are far more important to the plot at that time. Not trying to say it's huge in Naruto; it isn't, but it's totally there, no doubt.






> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mayumi (Jun 8, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



 The hug scene was nicely done but for the most part i think kishimoto wanted to potray the scene as sakura acknowledges naruto just like everyone else in the village. only this time sakura did it intimately with a hug. now, i know people are saying naruto could return the hug but i really don't see naruto being comfortable with that at all.

naruto never received love when he was younger, he did not get hugs, no one told him they loved him or cared for him or admired him. this is all new to him. he is not comfortable in showing his feelings with intimate jestures. think back to the time when he had to shake hands with gaara, it was gaara who initiated the hand shake and it was gaara who moved naruto's hand with his sand. he didn't really like kakashi telling him that he loves him either.

in the latest chapter when his fans rushed him he wanted to not push him. i really don't think naruto was all that happy with this new ackowledgement as much as he is wanted it. naruto might have always wanted to be hugged when he was a kid and now that he finally is, there is no way he would be alright and give a hug back.

for this reason, i really don't know what naruto will do with hinata's confession. he won't reject her but he won't know how to deal with someone loving him so much. sasuke is used to all the girls hugging him and being close to him but naruto not so much.


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## Afalstein (Jun 8, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I have since realized there's a whole thread devoted to Sakura's hug on the Konoha Library board.  Oh well.






TwilightLink20xx said:


> You have a lot of stuff I agree with here, but there's one little thing I noticed...
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Glad we agree on so many points.  I tried to be as fair as I possibly could in the appraisal, because this isn't something you can just explain away.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura's acknowledgement of Naruto is interesting.  In a way, you're correct, she's acknowledged him as far back as the chunin exams.  Accepted him, really.  But never openly admired him, as the others have(Neji, Gaara, Sai).  The one thing about the Sakura-Sai conversation is that it's the moment Sakura really brings out what she thinks about Naruto, and even for that Sai had to trick her.  I suppose "admiration" would have been a better term, except it carries a romantic implication which I didn't want.

Kishi definitely loves playing around with us.  A lot of people have commented as to why Hinata just didn't simply die with the rest of the villagers and come back when Nagato raised them.  An example of how he likes to toy with our minds.  So it could easily be that he just wanted to leave it ambiguous.  But I'm putting forth an explanation that it's not necessarily a romantic scene, because that's the first explanation that comes to mind.






mayumi said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



An interesting point.  I hadn't considered Naruto being uncomfortable with acceptance.  He took it well enough after Neji's match, but that was a little different.  This is definitely a little overwhelming for him right now.

Perhaps instead of "uncomfortable", you could say, "uncertain."  He just doesn't know how to handle this level of hero-worship.  It simply blows him away.  Once he learns to deal with it, he'll be fine.


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## mystic868 (Jun 8, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _reference to manga_ 



Well we can see this hug scene as:

1. Sakura is like crowd representation giving Naruto the praise, also thanking for everything he has done
2. Sakura is hugging him personally, thanking him for everything and sharing finally some closer feelings than friendship. 
3. Other personal opinion

For me the second option is more probable because(not counting npc in anime) the only person ever hugged by her was... SASUKE. And now Naruto. She is doing sth like that when her feelings are really big and deep. That's my opinion about it.
About Hinata well... after such a deep and romantic confession we have... nothing. I know that Hinata is inner feeling type and Naruto was kinda busy getting gratz from the ppl but he even didn't look at her, or didn't tell her anything. If he couldn't see her then he should have asked someone where is she. Instead of that he went to Tsunade... Well I know that the private talk will be there soon but such ignorance is really awful if her confession shocked him so much. I'm worried that this private conversation which is supposed to be important will be disturbed by the 3 perverted ninjas. That will make it yeasty and the resolution of this pairing will be still unknown.

About the Hinata - when she saw Sakura hugging Naruto she smiled. Well ppl are thinking that it can mean:

1. Hinata is happy because Naruto's dreams come true, he was acknowledged by Konoha ppl and she realised that Sakura has deep feelings for him also. In addition she understands NS mutual relationships that's why she is calm, because she only wants Naruto to be happy and he can be with Sakura.
2. Hinata is happy because Naruto's dreams come true, he was acknowledged by Konoha ppl but she's calm because she knows that even if Sakura hugged Naruto, he still has deep feelings for her(Hinata). Plus she thinks that between Sakura and Naruto is only friendship.

Well IMO 1 option is more likely especially that Hinata really wants Naruto to be happy. She realises that Sakura is very close person to him and that they know each other for a long time. They also care about each other very much.
To sum up: There will be for sure private conversation soon but it can be disturbed by these pervninjas or sudden emergency like Danzou's case(IMO it was terrible - like in primary school voting).


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## Forlong (Jun 8, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura thanked Naruto openly just before he set off to bring back Sasuke.


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## Afalstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mystic868 said:


> *Spoiler*: _reference to manga_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




I agree with you that the lack of follow-up is annoying.  I attribute it to the fact that Kishi is not actually very interested (or at least competent) at writing romance.  But I also consider it because this scene is more about the effect on the village as a whole.  That's why we get Akatsuki, Danzou, the Cloud nin, and Tsunade's condition.  The scene is wrapping up the Pain arc and showing the effects on the community.  Not so much on individuals.  But then I said all that up above.

And yes, Hinata could be happy because she wants Naruto to be happy, but it still seems like it would be bittersweet for her.  Like she'd be crying while smiling or something.  But then that's just me.  I really hope we get to a private conversation of some kind soon.

Danzou's matter is more likely to interfere than the pervninjas (are you talking about the Cloud nins?)  That's going to be of immediate importance, and it should be more interesting to see if Naruto is now truly "greater than the Hokage."  If it is, than Hinata should be very useful as a political figure (heiress of Hyuuga clan, current head elsewhere).  Shikamaru and Shikaku should be handy also.  But that's for another thread.




@Forlong

Yes, I know, but when he came back he'd failed.  And she wasn't really concilatory about that (understandably).  So you could say she did trust him at that point, but then he failed her. Even if she doesn't see that way, he might.  So in a way this could be a redemptive moment.

And it's not so much that she doesn't trust or have faith in Naruto, it's just that she has the least out of the 11 (with the possible exception of TenTen, Ino, and Chouji, who seem to have no opinion whatsoever)


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 8, 2009)

Repost from the library



*Spoiler*: __ 



Personally I wish Kishi would just settle all the "romance" stuff and stick with one definitive pairing so people can stop focusing less on it and focus more on the plot. That being said, looking at it from an objective point of view, Hinata has nothing to be jealous about in the first place. She simply hasn't had enough interactions with Naruto to be jealous of Sakura (talking about the smile she gave them). I really couldn't care less who Naruto ends up with, especially when he has a whole bunch of women probably waiting (somewhere) to pounce on him. However, considering the whole underdog theme with Naruto, it's just not surprising to me that he ends up getting the girl he desired from the beginning (Sakura). Everything he wanted or didn't have at the start of the series is slowly coming to fruition.


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## AMtrack (Jun 9, 2009)

Repost from the library...I only copy pasted the relevant part.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



The only way a pairing can happen involving naruto is if it happens naturally through a well developed bond. The only such well developed bond that exists is between naruto and sakura. Naruto is too dumb to do anything with the ball when its in his court, so naturally a lady will have to make the first move. The only one I see capable of doing that is Sakura. You can argue hinata because of her confession, but 450 proves to me that she's just not comfortable enough to actually pursue him. In my opinion, the only pairing with a prayer is NaruSaku, judging by character personalities....and thats because Sakura would have to make the first move, as 450 proves again (not that it was a "move" but you get my point). Does that make sense? I feel like I lost myself trying to explain it.


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## medicatedminx (Jun 9, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Repost from the library...I only copy pasted the relevant part.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I agree with this and that's probably what makes the NS pairing so plausible IMO. I think many people believe that because of Hinata's confession she could do this, take initiative with Naruto physically and maybe she could (I mean, who the f*ck expected that confession anyway). But I also feel that similar to the confession, it will seem rushed, awkward and completely OOC. I mean there was no foreshadowing that her confession would even happen at that point, if I remember correctly, who knows. And also (I know, I know the defense of every NS fan) I think that NaruHina, no matter how hard Kishi tries to develop it, it just wouldn't seem like a viable option, whilst NS has been developed as a friendship throughout this whole manga. Honestly I think hugging and mutual confessions is all this manga's gonna get in the romance department. If that will ever happen. So no one should be expecting a kiss anytime soon, or _ever_. But I digress.

Anyways, I feel that it would take too much time and effort to focus on matching Naruto and Hinata's personalities and making NH seem real and relevant to the storyline, when NaruSaku already has a strong friendship and they are both reaching towards the same goal, Sasuke's retrieval. 

Not to say this will end with romance, most likely not actually because first and foremost this is a shounen. But I honestly cannot foresee a way of NH ever happening unless Kishi dumps all this shit out the window and moves into OOC Romance Fanfiction world. Then again I'm biased. 

That was a long ass rant that I had not intended to make, and I bet all these points have already been made or don't even make sense. 


Time to get prepared for an onslaught of backlash. Why did I get myself into this again?


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## M4verick (Jun 9, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know, but when he came back he'd failed.  And she wasn't really concilatory about that (understandably).  So you could say she did trust him at that point, but then he failed her. Even if she doesn't see that way, he might.  So in a way this could be a redemptive moment.



It really doesn't matter.  She thanked him before in front of people, so it still proves your original argument wrong.



Afalstein said:


> And it's not so much that she doesn't trust or have faith in Naruto, it's just that she has the least out of the 11 (with the possible exception of TenTen, Ino, and Chouji, who seem to have no opinion whatsoever)



*Spoiler*: __ 




Link removed
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I really don't know where your getting your far fetched ideas from, but they are completely wrong.  

Seriously, who are you really trying to convince that the NS hug wasn't romantic, us, or yourself...


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## Amuro-ro-ro (Jun 9, 2009)

I like how Sakura is the only one shown to take the initiative and hug him/make physical contact with him. And everyone else is a bystander to it smiling. Even Hinata, who was on the brink of death, and who just confessed her love to him, was smiling. That to me shows that her confession isn't as important as it was made out to be. It was a major catalyst for Naruto to beat Pain, but I think that's all it was was and is gonna be in the grand scheme of things. Naruto didn't even ponder over it for too long. If Sakura makes a move on him Hinata will stand no chance.


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## Afalstein (Jun 9, 2009)

medicatedminx said:


> I agree with this and that's probably what makes the NS pairing so plausible IMO. I think many people believe that because of Hinata's confession she could do this, take initiative with Naruto physically and maybe she could (I mean, who the f*ck expected that confession anyway). But I also feel that similar to the confession, it will seem rushed, awkward and completely OOC. I mean there was no foreshadowing that her confession would even happen at that point, if I remember correctly, who knows. And also (I know, I know the defense of every NS fan) I think that NaruHina, no matter how hard Kishi tries to develop it, it just wouldn't seem like a viable option, whilst NS has been developed as a friendship throughout this whole manga. Honestly I think hugging and mutual confessions is all this manga's gonna get in the romance department. If that will ever happen. So no one should be expecting a kiss anytime soon, or _ever_. But I digress.
> 
> Anyways, I feel that it would take too much time and effort to focus on matching Naruto and Hinata's personalities and making NH seem real and relevant to the storyline, when NaruSaku already has a strong friendship and they are both reaching towards the same goal, Sasuke's retrieval.
> 
> ...



The argument holds water in the sense that Sakura is a main character and that Hinata isn't.  But primary heroines don't always get the primary hero (HArry and Hermoine, Aragorn and Eowyn, Luke and Leia).  It usually is a secondary character that gets the hero (Ginny, Arwen, Mara Jade)  Granted, sometimes the two central characters DO end up together.  But not always.

And look at the models Kishi has for romance so far

...

Well, okay, the only canon one we have so far is AsumaxKurenai.  But lets look at that one.  Did not show a lot of interaction, not even any concrete expressions.  They hung out a lot and people joked them about being on a date, but aside from that... not much.  Didn't show a lot of interaction.

But we didn't see much of them anyway.  Okay, then ShikaTem.  It's not quite canon, but it seems a genuine possibility.  How much interaction did those have, prior to their appearance?  A battle against each other, a rescue mission, and a short conversation in the hospital.  Not really a close relationship with a lot of back-and-forth.  And Shikamaru is a more prominent character who gets more screentime.

Kishi doesn't spend a lot of time on romance.  I believe he's even said he's not very interested in that part of his manga.  So it could very well happen that he decides to have some secondary character come up and fall in love with the main character.  Especially as Hinata seems to be coming foward more:
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Confession scene, only person who didn't have to be brought back to life by pain, pictured alone apart from team in hug scene.




And I'm not sure about how "uneasy" Naruto is about initiating affection.  He's been bothering Sakura for years, and apparently he was friends with Shika, Kiba, and Chouji back at school in the day (going off anime here, let me know if I'm wrong).  He's naturally exuberant, and he likes to make friends.  He's just not used to some people (like Sakura) actually returning the sentiment.


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## mystic868 (Jun 9, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> The argument holds water in the sense that Sakura is a main character and that Hinata isn't.  But primary heroines don't always get the primary hero (HArry and Hermoine, Aragorn and Eowyn, Luke and Leia).  It usually is a secondary character that gets the hero (Ginny, Arwen, Mara Jade)  Granted, sometimes the two central characters DO end up together.  But not always.
> 
> And look at the models Kishi has for romance so far
> 
> ...


Well I think that we shouldn't compare Sci-fi or fantasy movies to manga. Each has own rights, and different way to set up main/side plots. There is no rule about it.
About Sakura - I think she finally realised that her feelings for her close friend are really deep and important. It would be bad to use Hinata's confession as a catalyst for NS. Even if I'm NS fan I still like Hinata and IMO it's not ok to use her feelings that way. Maybe that confession was done to show her feelings and admiration for Naruto and she will be happy when her beloved one will be happy no matter if with her or other girl.


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## JERITROLL (Jun 9, 2009)

^I'm going to have to take this to the next step and say that using other works to draw to a conclusion is probably the worst thing to do. 

While some say Kishi uses cliches, I tend to think he uses Archetypes, which are often misrepresented as cliches (fthese are storytelling mechanics and persons that have become used so much, that they are iconic skeletons that writers use. Often times, it's without realizing it.). That's why it seems so easy to compare Naruto to works like Star Wars, but to do so is not the wisest thing.

Basically, take what you have from the author, he isn't restricted to the choices other authors have made in their own stories. We haven't exhausted all creativity yet, and more importantly, he can tell it however he wished, with whatever he wants to.


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## Tyrannos (Jun 9, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> The argument holds water in the sense that Sakura is a main character and that Hinata isn't.  But primary heroines don't always get the primary hero (HArry and Hermoine, Aragorn and Eowyn, Luke and Leia).  It usually is a secondary character that gets the hero (Ginny, Arwen, Mara Jade)  Granted, sometimes the two central characters DO end up together.  But not always.



First off, Western stories and Japanese stories (manga / anime) are not the same.  They are two distinct cultures.   I.E.  Apples and Oranges.

And hate to break it to you, but in the Star Wars novels, Mara Jade is a main character, not a secondary character.  




Afalstein said:


> And look at the models Kishi has for romance so far
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Don't compare the romances with Primary characters to that of relations with Secondary characters.   There is no logic to that.

_Naruto_ is about Naruto, not Kurenai and Asuma, Hinata, Sakura, or whomever.  It's Naruto's story.


*Spoiler*: _BTW_ 



You're looking too much into those moments.






Afalstein said:


> And I'm not sure about how "uneasy" Naruto is about initiating affection.  He's been bothering Sakura for years, and apparently he was friends with Shika, Kiba, and Chouji back at school in the day (going off anime here, let me know if I'm wrong).  He's naturally exuberant, and he likes to make friends.  He's just not used to some people (like Sakura) actually returning the sentiment.



Sorry, but Naruto was never shy about showing his affection for Sakura.   Nor was he shy about receiving complements.  Everytime he did, he was giddy and happy.


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## JERITROLL (Jun 9, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> First off, Western stories and Japanese stories (manga / anime) are not the same.  They are two distinct cultures.   I.E.  Apples and Oranges.
> 
> And hate to break it to you, but in the Star Wars novels, Mara Jade is a main character, not a secondary character.  .



Heh, just thought I'd build on this; Mara Jade didn't exist in the films anyway. As much as I love the EU and it's glory, this is further reason that said comparison doesn't work out, as it was never in the original author's mind (you can thank Timothy Zahn for that one).

And that is why I hate seeing other works used as reason for things going one way or another. Especially Star Wars. Time to move on.


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## Afalstein (Jun 9, 2009)

TwilightLink20xx said:


> ^I'm going to have to take this to the next step and say that using other works to draw to a conclusion is probably the worst thing to do.
> 
> Basically, take what you have from the author, he isn't restricted to the choices other authors have made in their own stories. We haven't exhausted all creativity yet, and more importantly, he can tell it however he wished, with whatever he wants to.



True.  I was not trying to say that Kishi HAS to make Naruto fall in love with a secondary character.  I was just saying he DOESN'T have to fall in love with the main character.  The fact that Sakura has more screen time than Hinata doesn't necessarily give her an edge.

And yes, Tyrannos, I know MaraJade was a main character in the novels, but she didn't even appear in the movies.  The point I was making was that even though Leia was the main heroine, she didn't end up with the main hero (thank goodness)



Tyrannos said:


> Sorry, but Naruto was never shy about showing his affection for Sakura.   Nor was he shy about receiving complements.  Everytime he did, he was giddy and happy.



Well, yes, that was part of my point.  People have been saying that Naruto simply is almost uncomfortable with affection and doesn't know how to handle it.  (ref. his hesitation to shake hands with Gaara, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



his shocked-still reaction to Sakura's hug, etc.


)  Hence, the argument goes, any romance with him will take a strong-willed girl who's willing to step out and take the initiative.

So I was contending that that wasn't really the case, because Naruto's fine on initiating action, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



he's just not used to things like the whole village suddenly befriending him.  


I must say I didn't expect you to agree with me, but thanks.


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## mystic868 (Jun 9, 2009)

Naruto needs strong-willed girl because even if he can easilly asks for a date, he has problems with feelings expression. So the other person has to do it instead of him. Hinata is too shy for it and needs Naruto to take initiative. Sakura can takes this role easilly.


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## JERITROLL (Jun 9, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> True.  I was not trying to say that Kishi HAS to make Naruto fall in love with a secondary character.  I was just saying he DOESN'T have to fall in love with the main character.  The fact that Sakura has more screen time than Hinata doesn't necessarily give her an edge.
> 
> And yes, Tyrannos, I know MaraJade was a main character in the novels, but she didn't even appear in the movies.  The point I was making was that even though Leia was the main heroine, she didn't end up with the main hero (thank goodness)



That's what I figured, I just wanted to edify why, that's all. And agreed, getting together with your twin's just messed up! XD



> Well, yes, that was part of my point.  People have been saying that Naruto simply is almost uncomfortable with affection and doesn't know how to handle it.  (ref. his hesitation to shake hands with Gaara,
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


I would agree with you in that Naruto does indeed have issues conveying it, but it doesn't change the fact that he wants it. He'll eventually be at that point, but for now, I don't expect him to be initiating anything.


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## Tyrannos (Jun 9, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> True.  I was not trying to say that Kishi HAS to make Naruto fall in love with a secondary character.  I was just saying he DOESN'T have to fall in love with the main character.  The fact that Sakura has more screen time than Hinata doesn't necessarily give her an edge.



Yes, it does give Sakura an edge.   A very significant one in fact.


NaruHina's point to there not needing screentime, which would be only true if Naruto and Hinata were a couple since the start or along the lines of Dragonball that Hinata has some kind of importance.  (Chichi's importance was to introduce Gohan later on.)  But because she was introduced later and her most important moment was in the Chuunin Exam, the only thing the fandom is running off is "Hinata likes Naruto".


*Spoiler*: __ 



Especially after the recent confession.




But yet the reality is, Naruto still has no affection for her.  And given the remainder of the plot left in the manga, I seriously doubt there is going to be any more development.



Afalstein said:


> And yes, Tyrannos, I know MaraJade was a main character in the novels, but she didn't even appear in the movies.  The point I was making was that even though Leia was the main heroine, she didn't end up with the main hero (thank goodness)



Then why the hell did mention Mara Jade at all?  

Frankly, you really should be pointing out Anime or Mangas where the protagonist doesn't get the girl he always had an affection for.  Which frankly, I honestly can't think of any at the top of my head, can you?



Afalstein said:


> Well, yes, that was part of my point.  People have been saying that Naruto simply is almost uncomfortable with affection and doesn't know how to handle it.  (ref. his hesitation to shake hands with Gaara, his
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



With Gaara, Naruto clearly understood to handle the situation, he was just embarassed to shake hands with the Kazekage.

(Besides, this handshaking moment is one of the many scenes people would've seen in other anime.  So it's not a specific Naruto trait, more of a guy thing).


Now with the girl with a strong will, took me by surprise.   Because when it comes to strong hero types, there is always a girl that keeps the hero in line.   Ichigo has Rukia, Luffy has Nami, Sousuke has Chidori, Yoh had Anna, and the list goes on.

Though it's a weak argument, it seems to fit NaruSaku quite well.   Naruto does something stupid, theres Sakura to keep him in line.   So unless Hinata changes personality all of a sudden, I really don't see her keeping Naruto in line at all.


*Spoiler*: _Now with_ 



Naruto being flooded by affection all of a sudden, of course he's going to be surprised.  After all he wasn't expecting that to happen, nor Sakura hugging him affectionate out of the blue (and in front of the entire village).

So I doubt anyone in his position wouldn't act the same.


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## Afalstein (Jun 9, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Yes, it does give Sakura an edge.   A very significant one in fact.
> 
> 
> NaruHina's point to there not needing screentime, which would be only true if Naruto and Hinata were a couple since the start or along the lines of Dragonball that Hinata has some kind of importance.  (Chichi's importance was to introduce Gohan later on.)  But because she was introduced later and her most important moment was in the Chuunin Exam, the only thing the fandom is running off is "Hinata likes Naruto".



Um, I'm not incredibly familiar with Dragonball or Dragonball Z, so I could be wrong here, but ChiChi showed up first in Dragonball, I believe, before Gohan existed.  For that matter, before they could have known that there would be such a character.  I assume you have some reason for what you're saying, but it sounds like you're suggesting that ChiChi was inserted to explain a character that didn't exist yet.

And we're probably not going to agree on this matter of primary/secondary characters, because that's what the NaruSaku debate largely hinges on.  Sakura is a primary character and Hinata is not. 

Allow me to explain why I don't think this is a serious objection.  You won't agree with me, but I'd like to try it anyway.  Romance is not a major concern for Kishi.  It's not something he's interested in, really.  Hence, it would make sense that he wouldn't create a love interest from the very beginning.  In fact, considering his statement that he made Sakura to see if he could make a thoroughly unlikeable character, it seems that to start off with, he had no romantic subplot at all.

So since it's not major concern for him, he could easily feel fine with matching up the main character with a secondary one.  He probably wouldn't even mind leaving Naruto unmarried, as far as that goes (especially since he did model Naruto after Dragonball, where ChiChi has a limited appearance).  He might not even have decided yet.  

The point is, Kishi doesn't care very much. 
*Spoiler*: _mentioning some manga info_ 



 He's more interested in Nagato's interaction with Naruto than Sakura's interaction with Naruto.  It's no accident that the female characters in the series are some of the least developed.  Ino has no love interest, Tenten... well, Tenten has nothing, essentially.  Kishi doesn't write romance, and he certainly didn't think about it from day One.


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## medicatedminx (Jun 9, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Um, I'm not incredibly familiar with Dragonball or Dragonball Z, so I could be wrong here, but ChiChi showed up first in Dragonball, I believe, before Gohan existed.  For that matter, before they could have known that there would be such a character.  I assume you have some reason for what you're saying, but it sounds like you're suggesting that ChiChi was inserted to explain a character that didn't exist yet.
> 
> And we're probably not going to agree on this matter of primary/secondary characters, because that's what the NaruSaku debate largely hinges on.  Sakura is a primary character and Hinata is not.
> 
> ...



Concerning the whole Goku/ChiChi deal: The thing that happened in DB and DBZ is that it still follows and fits in this NS type relationship because ChiChi and Sakura's personalities are extremely similar. They're both loudmouth, bosy women who fit the Tsudere archetype almost perfectly. ChiChi was the one to step up and actively pursue Goku in the end (which I can't see Hinata putting up much of a fight, unless she suddenly turns into a Yandere). If we are relating ChiChi/Goku to Hinata/Naruto it doesn't quite fit because ChiChi is still the loudmouth tsundere woman who kept Goku in line (aka Sakura if we're talking parallels).
But then again they're two entirely different mangas so you can just disregard this point .


----------



## Tyrannos (Jun 9, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Um, I'm not incredibly familiar with Dragonball or Dragonball Z, so I could be wrong here, but ChiChi showed up first in Dragonball, I believe, before Gohan existed.  For that matter, before they could have known that there would be such a character.  I assume you have some reason for what you're saying, but it sounds like you're suggesting that ChiChi was inserted to explain a character that didn't exist yet.



Well no duh Chichi came before Gohan, it's a basic biological process that the mother comes before the son.  

And Chichi's only significance is being Goku's wife and the mother of Gohan, that's it.



Afalstein said:


> And we're probably not going to agree on this matter of primary/secondary characters, because that's what the NaruSaku debate largely hinges on.  Sakura is a primary character and Hinata is not.



Largely hinges on?   I like to know how you come to that conclusion, because in all this debate thread and its other incarnations, this is more of an after thought.

ALL the pairings hinge on one thing and one thing only:  The requiting of feelings.

NaruSaku needs Sakura to return Naruto's love.
SasuSaku needs Sasuke to return Sakura's love.
NaruHina needs Naruto to return Hinata's love.


*Spoiler*: _So far_ 



NaruSaku's got the lead with Sakura finally showing some kind of affection.

In second is NaruHina with Hinata's confession (but Naruto's still hasn't shown signs he's requiting anytime soon).







Afalstein said:


> Allow me to explain why I don't think this is a serious objection.  You won't agree with me, but I'd like to try it anyway.  Romance is not a major concern for Kishi.  It's not something he's interested in, really.  Hence, it would make sense that he wouldn't create a love interest from the very beginning.  In fact, considering his statement that he made Sakura to see if he could make a thoroughly unlikeable character, it seems that to start off with, he had no romantic subplot at all.
> 
> So since it's not major concern for him, he could easily feel fine with matching up the main character with a secondary one.  He probably wouldn't even mind leaving Naruto unmarried, as far as that goes (especially since he did model Naruto after Dragonball, where ChiChi has a limited appearance).  He might not even have decided yet.
> 
> ...



We all know romance isn't a major concern for Kishimoto, Naruto's an action-manga.  But I find it ridiculous (and laughable) that the title character's love is going to be put aside for a girl he never shown affection for.

BTW, I wouldn't say Ino has no love interest.  Last I checked she had a thing for Sai and Sasuke.


----------



## Forlong (Jun 9, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> Frankly, you really should be pointing out Anime or Mangas where the protagonist doesn't get the girl he always had an affection for.  Which frankly, I honestly can't think of any at the top of my head, can you?


Excellent burn, Tyrannos.



Tyrannos said:


> Now with the girl with a strong will, took me by surprise.   Because when it comes to strong hero types, there is always a girl that keeps the hero in line.   Ichigo has Rukia, Luffy has Nami, Sousuke has Chidori, Yoh had Anna, and the list goes on.


You...must not...bring up the IchiRuki pairing again.

I have my reasons...



Afalstein said:


> And we're probably not going to agree on this matter of primary/secondary characters, because that's what the NaruSaku debate largely hinges on.  Sakura is a primary character and Hinata is not.



I've made this point so many times it isn't even funny.  NaruSaku is more likely because Naruto and Sakura actually interact.  You can go "But that's because Sakura is a main character" all you want.  Doesn't change the fact.

Since you like to use other forms of fiction as examples, let me use it against you.  In _Bleach_, who Ichigo ends up with could easily and reasonably go either way: Orihime...or...or...

..._Rukia_...RUKIA!



medicatedminx said:


> Concerning the whole Goku/ChiChi deal: The thing that happened in DB and DBZ is that it still follows and fits in this NS type relationship because ChiChi and Sakura's personalities are extremely similar. They're both loudmouth, bosy women who fit the Tsudere archetype almost perfectly. ChiChi was the one to step up and actively pursue Goku in the end (which I can't see Hinata putting up much of a fight, unless she suddenly turns into a Yandere). If we are relating ChiChi/Goku to Hinata/Naruto it doesn't quite fit because ChiChi is still the loudmouth tsundere woman who kept Goku in line (aka Sakura if we're talking parallels).
> But then again they're two entirely different mangas so you can just disregard this point .


What gets me confused is that most of the NaruHina fanfics I've read have Hinata's character changing (usually without explaination), to a stronger and more bold character.  In other words: MORE LIKE SAKURA!  Are you guys _really_ fans of Hinata?

ZARU!


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## AMtrack (Jun 9, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Excellent burn, Tyrannos.
> 
> 
> You...must not...bring up the IchiRuki pairing again.
> ...



Oh this was delicious, reps for you.  I agree wholeheartedly, and if we're talking strictly about likelihood, NS takes the cake.  I find the last point really interesting though, because that would prove that the NH fandom recognizes the fact that NH can't happen unless hinata is totally OOC...in which case it might as well be NS.  I've yet to hear a logical argument involving naruto and hina hooking up and still remaining in character.  I'm content to believe there isn't one, but maybe someone with an extremely brilliant mind can present one.


And naruto has never initiated anything in serious situations.  Yes, he's hounded sakura for dates, but that was hardly a serious situation.  It was more of a running gag than anything.  I really don't consider any of the pairing situations remotely serious at all in part 1 (although sasusaku was supposed to be).  So the argument, at least in my view, still stands that he cannot initiate during a serious romantic/emotional moment.  Has he ever made a move to hug/confess or anything of the sort?  No...because he does not know how to really be comfortable in that area.  Prime example is when sakura was bawwwing during the sasuke retrieval arc.  "Naruto, its you I-"...and he cut her off.  Why?  Naruto is uncomfortable in deep emotional situations like those...think about it, he's not really used to it because he was ostracized for so long.


If love were to happen to naruto, I guarantee you the woman will make the first move.  For instance, if there was ever a kiss in naruto (btw i doubt it) then the female will be the one to initiate it.  I called it, lmao.


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## 王志鍵 (Jun 10, 2009)

Forlong said:


> What gets me confused is that most of the NaruHina fanfics I've read have Hinata's character changing (usually without explaination), to a stronger and more bold character.  In other words: MORE LIKE SAKURA!  Are you guys _really_ fans of Hinata?
> ZARU!





AMtrack said:


> Oh this was delicious, reps for you.  I agree wholeheartedly, and if we're talking strictly about likelihood, NS takes the cake.  I find the last point really interesting though, because that would prove that the NH fandom recognizes the fact that NH can't happen unless hinata is totally OOC...in which case it might as well be NS.  I've yet to hear a logical argument involving naruto and hina hooking up and still remaining in character.  I'm content to believe there isn't one, but maybe someone with an extremely brilliant mind can present one.



I have to disagree. I don't think it's out of character at all when Hinata is shown with more strength and confidence.
Change is a big part of Hinata's character. Her determination and desire to change, is what sets her different from all the backboneless shy types we see in other manga.Unlike the other shy types, Hinata is actually determined to change herself into a much stronger and bolder person. It's easy to see that by the end of the manga, Hinata wouldn't be the same girl that she was when she was first introduced. Since she's constantly growing stronger and more confident afterall .


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## AMtrack (Jun 10, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> I have to disagree. I don't think it's out of character at all when Hinata is shown with more strength and confidence.
> Change is a big part of Hinata's character. Her determination and desire to change, is what sets her different from all the backboneless shy types we see in other manga.Unlike the other shy types, Hinata is actually determined to change herself into a much stronger and bolder person. It's easy to see that by the end of the manga, Hinata wouldn't be the same girl that she was when she was first introduced. Since she's constantly growing stronger and more confident afterall .



Yes but our point is that she'll never be a Sakura-like character.  And it seems that fanfic writers tend to write her this way, which is way OOC.  For her to actively pursue naruto would mos def be out of character because she is not a "pursue" type of person.  She's a sidelines background sort.  

By the way, she may be determined to gain more confidence but how much time do you think there is left?  Let's not kid ourselves here, its not like kishi really spends much time on her.  She gets development like what....every couple hundred chapters?  And her development is strictly limited to her fapping over naruto from some distant corner.  So yeah, her being assertive at all = OOC.  Hell her actually being able to have a decent conversation with naruto is OOC.  So lets face it, not really likely in terms of a working relationship.  Unless of course, you rewrite her character, which fans like to do anyway.


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## mystic868 (Jun 10, 2009)

There must be strong-willed character to keep Naruto in line and to cheer him up if necessary. Hinata is caring and supporting character but she's rather too shy to say sth really shocking to encourage Naruto. There must be "hand of order" over him because he is still reckless sometimes.
About DB etc. we shouldn't compare characters from other mangas because they' re not relative. Naruto is Naruto and DB is DB and let it be as it is.


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## Afalstein (Jun 10, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Oh this was delicious, reps for you.  I agree wholeheartedly, and if we're talking strictly about likelihood, NS takes the cake.  I find the last point really interesting though, because that would prove that the NH fandom recognizes the fact that NH can't happen unless hinata is totally OOC...in which case it might as well be NS.  I've yet to hear a logical argument involving naruto and hina hooking up and still remaining in character.  I'm content to believe there isn't one, but maybe someone with an extremely brilliant mind can present one.



I was thinking about this the other night actually... how any follow-up to the confession would take place. There IS going to be some follow up, I'm reasonably certain. I have something completely speculative, but perhaps you might find it interesting.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hinata would not initiate the talk.  Agreed.  She is in no way inclined to make any kind of follow-up request demand, or even to naturally expect one (though she may be disappointed).  Naruto, on the other hand, probably will, though he is likely to be somewhat awkward.  I think we can safely agree he's not used to a girl seriously liking him.  You can argue that Sakura has (I have doubts), but he wouldn't know it anyway.

So how, in this awkward construction would he approach her?  Easily enough, probably in connection with some other task, probably involving her injuries or the problem of Danzou as Hokage (I imagine Naruto may need the Hyuuga clan's support in the future).  And somewhere in that conversation, he would probably ask her about or reference the confession.  I suppose you could say I expect Hinata to take a more prominent part in actions in the future.

Now, of course, this doesn't answer your question about how a NaruHina relationship would work.  I find it quite easy to construct, actually.  The model comes from the Chunin exams.  Naruto gets depressed and Hinata cheers him up.  It may sound ridiculous, after all, Naruto is the person who always believes in himself.  But I've heard a number of people complain about how Naruto has been a complete milksop this season.  He's always crying and folding over like a wet blanket.  (reference the Sasuke-Sai mission).  And he's said himself that his exuberance is often a cover for how he feels.




So that's that.  Completely ridiculous perhaps, and I don't like to get into diagnosing the relationships themselves, but I thought I could have fun.  

It's interesting though, that despite all these predictions, Hinata is, after all, the first one to make the move.  I would not have predicted that.  Sure, it took a near-death experience, but the point is she actually did initiate action.  It's not impossible for her to do it again.



AMtrack said:


> And naruto has never initiated anything in serious situations.  Yes, he's hounded sakura for dates, but that was hardly a serious situation.  It was more of a running gag than anything.  I really don't consider any of the pairing situations remotely serious at all in part 1 (although sasusaku was supposed to be).  So the argument, at least in my view, still stands that he cannot initiate during a serious romantic/emotional moment.  Has he ever made a move to hug/confess or anything of the sort?  No...because he does not know how to really be comfortable in that area.  Prime example is when sakura was bawwwing during the sasuke retrieval arc.  "Naruto, its you I-"...and he cut her off.  Why?  Naruto is uncomfortable in deep emotional situations like those...think about it, he's not really used to it because he was ostracized for so long.
> 
> If love were to happen to naruto, I guarantee you the woman will make the first move.  For instance, if there was ever a kiss in naruto (btw i doubt it) then the female will be the one to initiate it.  I called it, lmao.



Hm.  The NaruSaku movement seems undecided on this issue.  A moment ago one of you was agreeing with me. Granted, they have the option, NaruHina mostly has to stick to Naruto intiating action. (see above)

But again, I'm not sure this is always the case.  Immediately after the fight with Neji, he was just fine with accepting the crowd's praise.  And also in part I, when Sakura asked if he would take her for Ramen, he was just fine with that, and even offered to walk her home.  Granted, Naruto I is a completely different animal than Naruto II.  But even in Part II he was quick to ask her on a date after the bell test. The point is he's not so uncomfortable with affection as just shocked by it.

By the way, you're the first NS debater who's actually argued that Naruto asking Sakura out was a running gag.  I'm surprised, because that's usually one of their strongest points-Sakura is one of Naruto's lifetime goals, and he'll never give up until he acheives her.  I'm not saying it's inconsistent, because he could easily become more serious simply from being around her so much.  But it's unusual.

EDIT:  @Mystic868 I saw your post a littttle too late to quote, but I feel like I should respond to it nonetheless.

You're right.  They're completely different creatures.  But no work of literature is unrelated to another, and Kishi himself has said he took a lot of inspiration from Dragonball.  In fact, Naruto was modeled after Goku.  Try to tell me Rasengan doesn't look like that Super Saiyan thing they always do.

Of course, it doesn't mean they'll follow the same story.  But it's useful to study source material, to see what might be foremost in the mind of the creator.


----------



## Forlong (Jun 10, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> I have to disagree. I don't think it's out of character at all when Hinata is shown with more strength and confidence.
> Change is a big part of Hinata's character. Her determination and desire to change, is what sets her different from all the backboneless shy types we see in other manga.Unlike the other shy types, Hinata is actually determined to change herself into a much stronger and bolder person. It's easy to see that by the end of the manga, Hinata wouldn't be the same girl that she was when she was first introduced. Since she's constantly growing stronger and more confident afterall .



Er...she had almost no character developement durring the time-skip.  She's 16 and still can hardly form a sentence around Naruto.  Ever heard the old Christian saying: "Faith without works is dead"?  Wanting to be a better person doesn't make it so, you have to put in the hard effort.


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## Crackers (Jun 10, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Er...she had almost no character developement durring the time-skip.  She's 16 and still can hardly form a sentence around Naruto.  Ever heard the old Christian saying: "Faith without works is dead"?  Wanting to be a better person doesn't make it so, you have to put in the hard effort.




*Spoiler*: __ 



... Did you not read the chapter entitled "Confession"? Because it certainly looked to me like she had plenty capability of speaking fluently and decisively to Naruto. 

Since Part I, Hinata has been putting in the effort to change. The very fact that she sliced through the "finishing blow" on Naruto and tried to protect him has proven that, while not necessarily drastic in many peoples' views for the amount of time it took for her to finally take the initiative, she has changed enough for her to compromise dilemmas within herself and therefore make her own decisions without a second party member's influence. 

Hinata neither needs nor wants to become a better person; she's the best that comes. What she wants, however, is to become less submissive and shy  to more confident in herself and being decisive with herself. With "Confession", she was able to make these changes within herself, regardless if it was "on a whim" as some might say. Kishimoto has shown readers that not only does Hinata have the potential to change, she *can* change. It's just a matter how long it takes for the development to occur full-swing. 




Anyway, carry on.


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## JERITROLL (Jun 10, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Hm.  The NaruSaku movement seems undecided on this issue.  A moment ago one of you was agreeing with me. Granted, they have the option, NaruHina mostly has to stick to Naruto intiating action. (see above)



Heh, that would be me. And it's partially because they're disreguarding 437. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



With that small element, yes, all it needs is Naruto to return something. Here's the main issue for NaruHina: Naruto's blown it off so far. Argue what you want, but judging by the manga's direction, we may or may not ever see more on this. Perhaps Hinata's smile in 450 was the follow up (Not saying it is, I'm just saying it MIGHT be, I could see Kishi doing that).






> EDIT:  @Mystic868 I saw your post a littttle too late to quote, but I feel like I should respond to it nonetheless.
> 
> You're right.  They're completely different creatures.  But no work of literature is unrelated to another, and Kishi himself has said he took a lot of inspiration from Dragonball.  In fact, Naruto was modeled after Goku.  Try to tell me Rasengan doesn't look like that Super Saiyan thing they always do.
> 
> Of course, it doesn't mean they'll follow the same story.  But it's useful to study source material, to see what might be foremost in the mind of the creator.



But that's dangerous territory. Just because he was influenced by Dragon Ball doesn't mean that he liked every little part of it. I'm not denying that Kishi has borrowed concepts from it,  has he himself has said so, but it doesn't mean that he will take it's plot structure. I haven't read Dragon Ball, but from what I've heard from fans, it is a typical Shounen of it's time, and doesn't spend a lot of time on making the characters deeper; something Naruto has been trying to do since day 1.

So basically, it seems that Kishi isn't using DB for influence in his characters personas, but is using it for design ideas. At least to me, that's how it seems. 

But I reiterate my statements from earlier: If the facts aren't from the Manga Naruto, then they don't hold weight in an argument about said subject.


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## Amai106 (Jun 10, 2009)

KittenLou said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well depending on hinata's personality and how she reacts around naruto,that could take a long time and by that time naruto and sakura could already be together.i just think it will be to late for hinata to actually make a move on naruto or even have ask him out.just because hinata broke out of her syness one time, doesnt mean shes going to continue.it takes a lot out of shy person to do something like that again


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## 王志鍵 (Jun 10, 2009)

AMtrack said:


> Yes but our point is that she'll never be a Sakura-like character.  And it seems that fanfic writers tend to write her this way, which is way OOC.  For her to actively pursue naruto would mos def be out of character because she is not a "pursue" type of person.  She's a sidelines background sort.
> 
> By the way, she may be determined to gain more confidence but how much time do you think there is left?  Let's not kid ourselves here, its not like kishi really spends much time on her.  She gets development like what....every couple hundred chapters?  And her development is strictly limited to her fapping over naruto from some distant corner.  So yeah, her being assertive at all = OOC.  Hell her actually being able to have a decent conversation with naruto is OOC.  So lets face it, not really likely in terms of a working relationship.  Unless of course, you rewrite her character, which fans like to do anyway.


Yes,she will never be a Sakura like character,even we don't see her as a Sakura like character. I don't know what kind of fanfic you've been reading, but very rarely is Hinata portrayed as a Tsundere type character.To say an entire fanbase thinks the only way Naruhina will happen is if Hinata becomes Sakura-like is bullcrap.Hinata has a completely different personality than Sakura, and growth in strength and confidence does not make someone Sakura-like nor does it make someone OOC.
Since she's a side character and all, some of Hinata's development is not shown in panel. Which I'm fine with since Kishimoto has already showed us the basics of what Hinata's development is like.There doesn't have to be a complete arc dedicated to show her growing. Just showing how much she has grown from time to time is enough.If side characters are always focused on, it'll be another Bleach-like chapter that doesn't help move the plot forward.



Forlong said:


> Er...she had almost no character developement durring the time-skip.  She's 16 and still can hardly form a sentence around Naruto.  Ever heard the old Christian saying: "Faith without works is dead"?  Wanting to be a better person doesn't make it so, you have to put in the hard effort.



Have you been paying attention to Hinata at all?
Masculinity incarnate.
Wow no stutters


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## M4verick (Jun 10, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Have you been paying attention to Hinata at all?
> Masculinity incarnate.
> Wow no stutters



She thought she was gonna die so she thought she wouldn't face any repercussions? Anyway...

On the real tip, IMO, I think the next time we see her talk around Naruto, she won't stutter at all.  If she still does(assuming she doesn't have a speech impediment), I will be extremely annoyed at her character.


----------



## Forlong (Jun 10, 2009)

KittenLou said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



So Hinata doesn't want to be a better person, but she wants to become less submissive?  Doesn't that contradict.  And my statement still stands, she has to put forth the effort.  She hasn't done that a lot.






BruceLeefan said:


> Have you been paying attention to Hinata at all?
> Sharingan can see chakra
> Wow no stutters



Er...I was refering to right after the time skip.  First time she sees him and she hits the floor like a cheap date.


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## 王志鍵 (Jun 10, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Er...I was refering to right after the time skip.  First time she sees him and she hits the floor like a cheap date.


She was caught off by surprise, it was the first time seeing him in 3 years, she wasn't ready, and she didn't know what to say to him.Those are perfectly valid reasons.Btw just to clear some things up, this was the only time she fainted in the entire manga on-screen.


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## roninmedia (Jun 10, 2009)

look behind him

Always is definitely a hyperbole but the the statement indicates that this has occurred before. 

Granted Sakura initially react like a paralyzed fool the first time she saw Sasuke in three years but she is the personality that has the capability to quickly change her assertiveness towards another character.

Hinata, I believe is the individual who will take baby steps.


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## Afalstein (Jun 11, 2009)

roninmedia said:


> range
> 
> Always is definitely a hyperbole but the the statement indicates that this has occurred before.
> 
> ...



But Sakura hasn't quickly changed her assertiveness, at least not toward Naruto.  She has to know she could have Naruto any time she wanted.  But she's still waiting around.  In fact, Sai had to trick her to even get her to acknowledge she respects Naruto.

The fact that she hasn't quickly changed implies that either 1) she hasn't quite gotten over Sasuke yet, or 2) she doesn't change as quickly as people think.

I've heard the argument that's she was scarred in love by Sasuke's harsh response, but then one wonders why she hasn't come to someone else (say Naruto) for comfort.


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## Tyrannos (Jun 11, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> She has to know she could have Naruto any time she wanted.



By the sound of it, you make like Sakura's a whore.  

She's not in love with Naruto, yet.  It's more like she's beginning to fall in love with him.  



Afalstein said:


> In fact, Sai had to trick her to even get her to acknowledge she respects Naruto.



You know the Anime doesn't count, right?  



Afalstein said:


> The fact that she hasn't quickly changed implies that either 1) she hasn't quite gotten over Sasuke yet, or 2) she doesn't change as quickly as people think.
> 
> I've heard the argument that's she was scarred in love by Sasuke's harsh response, but then one wonders why she hasn't come to someone else (say Naruto) for comfort.



Funny, I never heard such thing being ever said.  Especially by the NaruSaku fandom.

And if Sakura dropped her feelings for Sasuke at the drop of a bucket, to be in love with Naruto, that would make her a slut or easy.  


If you read the manga, she gave up on getting Sasuke back at the end of Part 1.  But Naruto rekindled her hope and that's what encouraged her to train with Tsunade.   And throughout Part 2, she was just as determined to bring Sasuke back as Naruto.   Though along the way, she's learning more about Naruto and growing closer.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Jun 11, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> By the sound of it, you make like Sakura's a whore.


 
I don't believe he means Sakura is a whore. However, the arguments appear to be that she interacts much more with Naruto, and sometimes that is directly applied to her "growing affection" for him. If that interaction is the deciding factor, she DID have forever and a day to sort out the feelings that have [another argument] been growing since the beginning of Part Two. For such an intelligent girl, she could not realize she's been in love all this time? Naruto has a crush on her ["loves" her, in others' opinion]; all it really would have taken before might have been Sakura giving him more of a chance. Unfortunately, that is not the case anymore; more factors are involved.



> She's not in love with Naruto, yet. It's more like she's beginning to fall in love with him.


 

*Spoiler*: _manga_ 




Being grateful is now an indication of love? The moment was adorable.  However, nothing about it is very indicative of love aside from interpretation. And again, she had to witness a confession just to understand that she /might/ be falling in love with him? With all this time they have had interacting without any other obstacle [Hinata or Sasuke]? That does not strike me as in-character for Sakura to not even have an inkling of what she felt.






> And if Sakura dropped her feelings for Sasuke at the drop of a bucket, to be in love with Naruto, that would make her a slut or easy.


 
It wouldn't make her a slut, or easy. No one can prove she /has/ dropped her feelings for Sasuke.



> If you read the manga, she gave up on getting Sasuke back at the end of Part 1. But Naruto rekindled her hope and that's what encouraged her to train with Tsunade. And throughout Part 2, she was just as determined to bring Sasuke back as Naruto. Though along the way, she's learning more about Naruto and growing closer.


 
Again, nothing has proven she doesn't love Sasuke. Naruto and her have grown and learned more about one another, of course, but that bond has no direct bearing on what Sakura feels for Sasuke. She doesn't have to grow to appreciate Naruto more and at the same time, suddenly shun emotion towards her lost teammate; they are not mutually exclusive.


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## Forlong (Jun 11, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> She was caught off by surprise, it was the first time seeing him in 3 years, she wasn't ready, and she didn't know what to say to him.Those are perfectly valid reasons.Btw just to clear some things up, this was the only time she fainted in the entire manga on-screen.


Still, is that normal behavior for a 16-year-old?  I don't think so.



Afalstein said:


> I've heard the argument that's she was scarred in love by Sasuke's harsh response, but then one wonders why she hasn't come to someone else (say Naruto) for comfort.



This isn't "Lifetime".  Sakura doesn't want to go to Naruto for comfort because she knows he has enough of his own problems.


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## 王志鍵 (Jun 11, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Still, is that normal behavior for a 16-year-old?  I don't think so.



Then tell me, what is normal behavior for a 16 year old girl? 
Her age has nothing to do with fainting. Heck, even grown women faint due to surprise.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Jun 11, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> By the sound of it, you make like Sakura's a whore.
> 
> She's not in love with Naruto, yet.  It's more like she's beginning to fall in love with him.



That's debatable, many people here think she's in love with him already and does not understand what she is feeling.

Of course we don't know either way for sure yet, but how you say it makes it sound like that's the only option.


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## M4verick (Jun 11, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> *Spoiler*: _manga_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



The fact that she wrapped her arms around Naruto's neck in front of the whole village, and some of the villagers shocked reactions(including Kakashi's), is very indicative of very strong feelings if not yet love.  

Really, how the whole scene played out was perfectly.  How Kishi timed Sakura crying out for Naruto, than Naruto returning to the village in the next panel.  Than they share the hug in front of the whole village after. Perfect.

If it was just pure gratefulness in the scene, why would there be such a shocked reaction on Kakashi's face when she hugged him?  Seriously, the look on his face was priceless.


----------



## Tyrannos (Jun 11, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I don't believe he means Sakura is a whore. However, the arguments appear to be that she interacts much more with Naruto, and sometimes that is directly applied to her "growing affection" for him. If that interaction is the deciding factor, she DID have forever and a day to sort out the feelings that have [another argument] been growing since the beginning of Part Two. For such an intelligent girl, she could not realize she's been in love all this time? Naruto has a crush on her ["loves" her, in others' opinion]; all it really would have taken before might have been Sakura giving him more of a chance. Unfortunately, that is not the case anymore; more factors are involved.



You make like sorting your emotions is an easy thing for intelligent people.   Even the most intelligent people on Earth can be troubled by the matters of the heart.

Sakura was deeply in love with Sasuke, and he turned his back on her.   Then  she was about to lose all hope, until Naruto rekindled that hope within her.   And she was determined to bring Sasuke back.   But along the way, she started noticing more of Naruto, the real Naruto.   The person that kept helping her, the one that made a promise, even if it meant becoming a monster. 

And in the end, I find her love for Naruto being much more mature and real than the love she harbored for Sasuke.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> *Spoiler*: _manga_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, but I don't need Chapter 450 to prove my case.   Chapters 261, 289, 297, 343 are already available.

Chapter 261, Sakura weaps at knowing if the Kyuubi is removed, Naruto's fate is death.  

Chapter 289 and 297, others notice Sakura's feelings for Naruto, to which she didn't know herself.

Chapter 343, shes apparently starting to accept those feelings and willing to stand by Naruto's side and to believe in him.

As time goes on, her bond with Naruto becomes stronger and stronger in which the outcome very well could be requiting.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> It wouldn't make her a slut, or easy. No one can prove she /has/ dropped her feelings for Sasuke.



Nor can you confirm it either.   Hence why all romance hinges on Sakura.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Again, nothing has proven she doesn't love Sasuke. Naruto and her have grown and learned more about one another, of course, but that bond has no direct bearing on what Sakura feels for Sasuke. She doesn't have to grow to appreciate Naruto more and at the same time, suddenly shun emotion towards her lost teammate; they are not mutually exclusive.



You make like Sakura and Sasuke are going to get together like nothing has happened.   And the time Sakura had with Naruto, there is no possibility of love blossoming.

Sasuke never had romantic feelings for Sakura, but Naruto has.  And nearly killed himself for her sake.   By classical definition, that in itself is romantic.


----------



## Afalstein (Jun 12, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> By the sound of it, you make like Sakura's a whore.
> 
> She's not in love with Naruto, yet.  It's more like she's beginning to fall in love with him.



Oi.  I suppose I should be more clear with what I say.  

I never meant to imply that Sakura is picking up Naruto "at the drop of a bucket."  3 years is an awfully long drop for a bucket.  By the statement that she could have Naruto anytime, I meant that she has no reason to be timid if she is in love.  Granted, you say she's not(yet), so I can see why you took that interpretation.  But I've heard plenty on the other side also.

Besides, this relates to the point below.



Tyrannos said:


> Funny, I never heard such thing being ever said.  Especially by the NaruSaku fandom.



It may not be a popular argument.  But it actually was from a member of the NaruSaku fandom, in response to a question about why Sakura hasn't moved on in any sense.  I mean, she's not apparently interested in anyone else her age.

Actually, it's similar to your argument above (or at least it does to me), about how Sasuke's rejection left her feelings in turmoil and she hasn't sorted them out yet.  So it's not a NaruHina device, it's an understandable argument from the NaruSaku side.

My response to this is up above, though, so I won't belabor the point.


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## IHaveNoName (Jun 12, 2009)

May I join this debate?



Tyrannos said:


> Sakura was deeply in love with Sasuke, and he turned his back on her.   Then  she was about to lose all hope, until Naruto rekindled that hope within her.   And she was determined to bring Sasuke back.   But along the way, she started noticing more of Naruto, the real Naruto.   The person that kept helping her, the one that made a promise, even if it meant becoming a monster.



That...was worded perfectly. I also believe that compared to the feeling she felt for Sasuke, those which she has for Naruto are more deep-rooted and true. 

I kinda have to disagree, though, where Sakura was "deeply" in love with Sasuke. I do think Sakura is a caring person in general, and valued Sasuke as a individual, which could explain her strong desire to bring him back. In the process, she realized her feelings for Naruto (again, quoting Tyrannos), but in a subtle manner. I personally think that Naruto and Sakura's relationship shows more possibility of happening, because it's much less one-sided than Sasuke and Sakura's.

That...was long.


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## Tyrannos (Jun 12, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> Oi.  I suppose I should be more clear with what I say.
> 
> I never meant to imply that Sakura is picking up Naruto "at the drop of a bucket."  3 years is an awfully long drop for a bucket.  By the statement that she could have Naruto anytime, I meant that she has no reason to be timid if she is in love.  Granted, you say she's not(yet), so I can see why you took that interpretation.  But I've heard plenty on the other side also.



See that's the thing, you're making like she's all of a sudden have her eyes set on Naruto.

But what NaruSaku's believe is that throughout the story, Sakura's transitioning from the outright hate (in the beginning) to what believe is the eventual pairing in the end.  But along the way, she's realizing her feelings for Naruto are getting stronger.




Afalstein said:


> It may not be a popular argument.  But it actually was from a member of the NaruSaku fandom, in response to a question about why Sakura hasn't moved on in any sense.  I mean, she's not apparently interested in anyone else her age.
> 
> Actually, it's similar to your argument above (or at least it does to me), about how Sasuke's rejection left her feelings in turmoil and she hasn't sorted them out yet.  So it's not a NaruHina device, it's an understandable argument from the NaruSaku side.
> 
> My response to this is up above, though, so I won't belabor the point.



That's something we honestly can't answer.  I mean she did went crazy over Yaoi no Jutsu, didn't she?   So far as we can tell she could go ga-ga over any handsome guy.  But for the sake of the story, let's just keep it either Sasuke or Naruto.  


And I don't get your point with it also being a NaruHina device.  Last I checked, Naruto didn't reject Hinata.


*Spoiler*: _Unless_ 



You are paralleling how Hinata jumping infront of Pain, like Sakura did with Gaara.


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## Afalstein (Jun 12, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> And I don't get your point with it also being a NaruHina device.  Last I checked, Naruto didn't reject Hinata.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Unless_
> ...




My bad.

Up above you said you couldn't recall anyone from the NaruSaku fandom using the argument that Sakura was scarred.  I was afraid you might think that the NaruHina side just invented the "Sakura-scarred" debate to prove a point on their side.


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## Forlong (Jun 12, 2009)

BruceLeefan said:


> Then tell me, what is normal behavior for a 16 year old girl?


Well, I would expect her to at least be able to _talk_ to a boy.  She can barely stay concious in front of him.



IHaveNoName said:


> May I join this debate?


No!  Leave now...or DIE!




IHaveNoName said:


> I kinda have to disagree, though, where Sakura was "deeply" in love with Sasuke. I do think Sakura is a caring person in general, and valued Sasuke as a individual, which could explain her strong desire to bring him back. In the process, she realized her feelings for Naruto (again, quoting Tyrannos), but in a subtle manner. I personally think that Naruto and Sakura's relationship shows more possibility of happening, because it's much less one-sided than Sasuke and Sakura's.



In all honesty, I don't see SasuSaku happenning just because Sasuke is such a bratty morron.  I know we're supposed to feel sorry for him about losing his parrents, but he whines about it so much I just don't care anymore.  The way Naruto and Sakura talk about Sasuke, it's more like they're his parrents than his teammates.


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## Hidanpwnsgod (Jun 12, 2009)

I *COMPLETLEY* word for word belive what for long just said, besides sauske has totally denied every girl that came his way including sakura. SasuSaku had a _waaayy_ better chance before time skip, but know sakura is over sauske but still thinks of him as a friend.


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## 王志鍵 (Jun 12, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Well, I would expect her to at least be able to _talk_ to a boy.  She can barely stay concious in front of him.


Well,Not everyone in this world is the "outgoing" type or the social type. This world would be a boring place if we all were. Please accept the fact that not everyone in this world is the same,and that's what makes this world unique.People react differently to certain things according to their personality.


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## IHaveNoName (Jun 12, 2009)

Forlong said:


> No!  Leave now...or DIE!



GASP! I feel offended 




Forlong said:


> In all honesty, I don't see SasuSaku happenning just because Sasuke is such a bratty morron.  I know we're supposed to feel sorry for him about losing his parrents, but he whines about it so much I just don't care anymore.  The way Naruto and Sakura talk about Sasuke, it's more like they're his parrents than his teammates.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I totally agree. Sasuke IS a little WHINY about it (JUST a little )! I think at most Sasuke will be forgiven and reaccepted into Team 7 (although that would mean a really complicated plot ). And yes, I was really mad at Sasuke when he was, in Part I, like "How do you know what pain is if you've never had parents or relatives in the first place? Do you know what it is to lose them?!" Well, YEAH, I KNOW, but it's not like Naruto hasn't had his fair share of pain. Besides, that's why I like Naruto more. He took the pain but he stayed optimistic and I think it paid off in the end. Sasuke, however, seems to be swallowed up by his obsession for REVENGE. For EVERYTHING. He's just trying to avenge everything he avenged; it's all a big cycle! 




Okay. I'm done ranting. DEEP BREATH.


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## Amai106 (Jun 13, 2009)

if you think about it sasuke is slowly becoming more like pein because....
*Spoiler*: __ 



in one of the chapters he said he'll make people feel his hatred. like pein he wanted everyone else to feel his pain....weird




anyways back to the debate:like evry1 else is saying, sasuke doesnt care about sakura 1 bit. if he really cared for her he would've stayed in konoha. when has sasuke ever compliment her thats not dealing with her skills?? i'll tell u never!

i also agree with every1 else about sasukes whining. he needs to get over it. he cant change what has already happened and make other ppl suffer for what happened to him. i call that being selfish and cruel to other people. sasuke needs to grow up and let go of the past.


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## Afalstein (Jun 13, 2009)

Amai106 said:


> if you think about it sasuke is slowly becoming more like pein because....
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed that Sasuke needs to get over himself.  I do wish Naruto had something along those lines to him at VotE.  ("Oh, get over it already.")  I imagine something like that will happen before he rejoins Team 7 (which he WILL do, simply because it's one of those things Naruto never lets go of.)

Part of the question is, though, what would a non-revenge-obsessed Sasuke even be like?  I mean, we've never seen the guy otherwise.  And what would the result be on Sakura?  

See, I'm not so sure that Sakura's so over Sasuke.  Certainly in the Sai-Sasuke arc she didn't seem to be (she charged at him, but after Yamato intervened she pretty much stood there).  Most of her interaction with Naruto has revolved around getting Sasuke back.  She was once in love with the guy and he rejected her.  If she's not still in love with him, she should hate him.  

Now granted, she probably shouldn't still be in love with the guy.  She may even know that, but just not be able to let go.  But "valued friend" seems an odd category for a former crush who utterly rejected you.  Shoot, most people hate ex's who even leave them politely, never mind knocking them out and betraying the village.

I'm also not saying she's actually going to end up still in love with Sasuke when he comes back.  Those two have a LOT of issues to work out before they can figure out where they stand.  And they could very well decide to simply be "valued friends" after they get it worked out.  But I don't think Sakura's quite resolved the Sasuke issue in her own mind.


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## ButterflyGod (Jun 13, 2009)

M4verick said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Um, Kakashi has never seen Sakura hug Naruto before, of course he's surprised, especially since she socked him and then hugged him! If he was realizing OMG she's in love with him! he probably would have indicated it with a thought. As for Sakura's 'strong feelings' yes she has strong feelings... Naruto is one of her best friends. Far as she knows, he came back alive after facing an incredibly powerful opponent who could have killed him. It _is _pure gratefulness and relief and I'm not going to dare call it anything else.


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## ironblade_x1 (Jun 13, 2009)

Non-revenge Sasuke = nice guy. I'm assuming he'd be kid Sasuke (I lub you Itachi/I lub you mommy/Gtfo dad) except slightly more mature. Lots of smiles, serious about ninja-training, and playing tag with random strangers.


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## Kage (Jun 13, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> See, I'm not so sure that Sakura's so over Sasuke.  Certainly in the Sai-Sasuke arc she didn't seem to be (she charged at him, but after Yamato intervened she pretty much stood there).  Most of her interaction with Naruto has revolved around getting Sasuke back.  She was once in love with the guy and he rejected her.  If she's not still in love with him, she should hate him.
> 
> Now granted, she probably shouldn't still be in love with the guy.  She may even know that, but just not be able to let go.  But "valued friend" seems an odd category for a former crush who utterly rejected you.  Shoot, most people hate ex's who even leave them politely, never mind knocking them out and betraying the village.
> 
> I'm also not saying she's actually going to end up still in love with Sasuke when he comes back.  Those two have a LOT of issues to work out before they can figure out where they stand.  And they could very well decide to simply be "valued friends" after they get it worked out.  But I don't think Sakura's quite resolved the Sasuke issue in her own mind.



see this is the problem, you're putting sakura into a position she never had. you're acting like she's sasuke ex-girlfriend. she was never sasuke's girlfriend to begin with. there's nothing to work out between where they stand because what she means to sasuke is _not_ complicated. he was never confused about his feelings for her, or what they were or what they could be. he considered her a comrade worth protecting and even that he never said to her face.

as for sakura a lot like to assume that throwing her love for sasuke in the friend category cheapens her character and that's why it would be stupid for it to be anything else but at the same time have no problems making the same accusations (cheapens her character if she fell in love with naruto which is why it's dumb) if she developed less then friendly feelings for naruto.  

so i take claims like that with a grain of salt. sakura not loving sasuke in a romantic way is definitely not as absurd as many seem to think.


----------



## Believe it!!! (Jun 13, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _What NaruHina has_ 




A suicidal last minute unadressed confession that the confessor was sure would amount to nothing.
_She was right. And this will probably never be anything but a plot device for character resoulution._
Blushes. 
_OMG blushes! We know she loves him. Anything from the other side? ..._
Faints.
_She obviously can't have a healthy conversation, much less a relationship._
A surprised face.
_He was surprised. He didn't know._
"Let's do our best!"
_He would say this to ANYONE!_
"I like people like you!"
_That's called Naruto's personality._
Lack of faith.
_Hinata obviously doesn't trust Naruto to be able to do ANYTHING by himself. She has no faith._





*Spoiler*: _What NaruSaku has_ 





Mutual development.
_There is hints from BOTH SIDES._
Conversations
_They speak to eachother._
Numerous hints
_3,245, 296, 297, 343, 450, are all chapters that contain hints of NaruSaku. And that isn't everything._
Hug.

Trust
_Sakura knows Naruto can do it._


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## M4verick (Jun 13, 2009)

ButterflyGod said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> *Um, Kakashi has never seen Sakura hug Naruto before*, of course he's surprised, especially since she socked him and then hugged him! If he was realizing OMG she's in love with him! he probably would have indicated it with a thought. As for Sakura's 'strong feelings' yes she has strong feelings... Naruto is one of her best friends. Far as she knows, he came back alive after facing an incredibly powerful opponent who could have killed him. It _is _pure gratefulness and relief and I'm not going to dare call it anything else.




*Spoiler*: __ 




If it was just a pure friendship hug, Kakashi would not have such a shocked expression on his face... And your point about him needing to have a thought, makes no sense at all.  The expression says it all.

Naruto has faced opponents that have put his life in danger fighting dangerous opponents, and he has saved Sakura's life before.  No hugs than.  Sakura is hugging Naruto for the first time now because....  Put two and two together and by jolly, you just my get it.  




Or, just stay in denial, whatever works



kageneko said:


> see this is the problem, you're putting sakura into a position she never had. you're acting like she's sasuke ex-girlfriend. she was never sasuke's girlfriend to begin with. there's nothing to work out between where they stand because what she means to sasuke is _not_ complicated. he was never confused about his feelings for her, or what they were or what they could be. he considered her a comrade worth protecting and even that he never said to her face.
> 
> as for sakura a lot like to assume that throwing her love for sasuke in the friend category cheapens her character and that's why it would be stupid for it to be anything else but at the same time have no problems making the same accusations (cheapens her character if she fell in love with naruto which is why it's dumb) if she developed less then friendly feelings for naruto.
> 
> so i take claims like that with a grain of salt. sakura not loving sasuke in a romantic way is definitely not as absurd as many seem to think.



I see what your saying.  But in all honesty, I don' think anything will really jump off between NaruSaku untill there is closure between SakuSasu.  Untill than, I think Sasu will still linger in her head, thus keeping the confusion between her feelings for Sasuke, and her feelings for Naruto.


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## Kage (Jun 13, 2009)

M4verick said:


> I see what your saying.  But in all honesty, I don' think anything will really jump off between NaruSaku untill there is closure between SakuSasu.  Untill than, I think Sasu will still linger in her head, thus keeping the confusion between her feelings for Sasuke, and her feelings for Naruto.



agreed but only because it's sakura's feelings we are unsure of here (and to a lesser extent naruto's as well really) 

my point was people are acting like this is some weird awkward complicated issue between *sasuke* and sakura when it's not. sasuke's feelings are hardly debatable. he was never interested. that much is evident. i doubt 3 years has changed that.


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## M4verick (Jun 13, 2009)

kageneko said:


> agreed but only because it's sakura's feelings we are unsure of here (and to a lesser extent naruto's as well really)
> 
> *my point was people are acting like this is some weird awkward complicated issue between sasuke and sakura when it's not. sasuke's feelings are hardly debatable. he was never interested. that much is evident. i doubt 3 years has changed that.*



Yea, I completely agree with that.  All its gonna take is a lil conversation, and thats it.


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## Van the Dawn (Jun 14, 2009)

If this were a regular shonen, I'd say NaruSaku was going the way. But since this manga is heavily affected on Bromance and what not, I say NaruHina and NaruSaku since after Naruto and Sasuke, Sakura and Hinata are trophies to the two as a consolation prize. Seriously, Sakura could die and it wouldn't effect the plot at all and Hinata well she's just fodder for pairings. So really, I don't see Naruto putting Sakura on his pedestal when it comes to Sasuke's bond with him.


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## Xephia (Jun 14, 2009)

Just jumping into the thread with my two cents. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't support NaruHina because they don't really have any history together. I mean, in total, how many conversations have they _actually_ had? A handful. How many of those have been meaningful? One, during the chuunin exam. The only thing that would make Hinata any different in Naruto's eyes to any of the other female Chunin is her confession, and that's only because no one has ever confessed their love to him before. Any romantic feelings between the two have always been one sided, and I can't imagine Naruto falling in love with her. She's a flat, boring character and he knows nothing about her except that she loves him. 

With NaruSaku the relationship has actually developed over time. They've seen each other at their worst and their best, they've had their relationship trialed and tested, and they've been together since the beginning of the manga.

One of the common NaruHina debates is that 'Hinata obviously loves Naruto more', and 'Sakura obviously loves Sasuke.' What I hate about that arguement is that Hinata doesn't really even _know_ Naruto, just as Sakura never really knew Sasuke to the extent that Naruto did. The only two people who really know one another well are Naruto and Sakura, and that's because their bonds are stronger from spending so much time together and going through so many trails.

The only appeal I can see in NaruHina is that Hinata would make an ideal housewife and she and Naruto would make really tough babies. She's lacking something pretty important though. Naruto, begin alone all his life, really needs a wife/lover/girlfriend who he can really spend time with and talk to. Lets face it, Hinata might be cute but she isn't the kind of girl you could spend hours with without getting bored.


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## mystic868 (Jun 14, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _TAG MANGA INFO_ 



Well about NH - if this would become canon then it was obligatory to appear in 1,2 chapters after Naruto returned to the village(private conversation). And what we have? Nothing!! Nothing at all, even single word. That shows us how important was confession for Naruto. IMO he interpreted it as the strong friendship bond and nth more. 
About NS - yes they're really getting closer to each other, also this hug was sth important because in Sakura's case she isn't hugging everyone who she cares about. The last person was Sasuke. However her behaviour is still annoying sometimes when it comes to Naruto. Kishi-sama I beg you - let her finally grow up


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## shurei (Jun 14, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



NH is not there for me and it never was. Naruto has not thought of Hinata as far as seeking her out and thanking her, much to my surprise. I thought he would at least do that. The fact that Hinata smiled when Sakura hugged Naruto told me that  she is happy for him. I really believe that her confession was closure because she was facing a strong opponent and was not going to survive.
The embrace was so sincere that Kakashi's reaction of beig surprised is probably because he realized at the moment that Sakura's feelings for Naruto is not brother and sister. it is more and deeper than friendship.


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## IHaveNoName (Jun 14, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 





shurei said:


> NH is not there for me and it never was. Naruto has not thought of Hinata as far as seeking her out and thanking her, much to my surprise. I thought he would at least do that. The fact that Hinata smiled when Sakura hugged Naruto told me that  she is happy for him. I really believe that her confession was closure because she was facing a strong opponent and was not going to survive.
> The embrace was so sincere that Kakashi's reaction of beig surprised is probably because he realized at the moment that Sakura's feelings for Naruto is not brother and sister. it is more and deeper than friendship.



I agree. Kakashi has known both of them for several years and for him to surprised at such a small gesture is quite a suprise in itself. I can understand where people say Sakura and Naruto love each other as brother and sister, but I feel there's been enough proof that thier relationship goes past that.


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## Forlong (Jun 14, 2009)

Xephia said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> One of the common NaruHina debates is that 'Hinata obviously loves Naruto more', and 'Sakura obviously loves Sasuke.' What I hate about that arguement is that Hinata doesn't really even _know_ Naruto, just as Sakura never really knew Sasuke to the extent that Naruto did. The only two people who really know one another well are Naruto and Sakura, and that's because their bonds are stronger from spending so much time together and going through so many trails.



I disagree with you about Sakura's relationship with Sasuke.  She does understand him on some level.  He did once tell her "I cried on that day" (meaning the day the Uchiha clan was wiped out).  He openned up to her at least a little.


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## Inuhanyou (Jun 14, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I disagree with you about Sakura's relationship with Sasuke.  She does understand him on some level.  He did once tell her "I cried on that day" (meaning the day the Uchiha clan was wiped out).  He openned up to her at least a little.



That person said "to the extent naruto did" which is obvious, you can't compare their understanding even if he opened up a little towards her. Childhood rivals/best friend =/= teammate/somewhat friend


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## Xephia (Jun 14, 2009)

Forlong said:


> I disagree with you about Sakura's relationship with Sasuke.  She does understand him on some level.  He did once tell her "I cried on that day" (meaning the day the Uchiha clan was wiped out).  He openned up to her at least a little.



I did say 'to the extent Naruto did', my point being that Sasuke considered Naruto a friend and a rival - they understood each other (to an extent). Sakura never really understood Sasuke, and Sasuke never really cared to try and understand Sakura. If you don't understand someone you can hardly love them.

As far as I can remember, the only time Sasuke ever really showed that he appreciated Sakura's feelings, like he did Naruto's, was near the end of Part 1 just before Sasuke left. And there's a huge difference between appreciating someone's love and believing them. 

Sakura crushed on Sasuke because he was 'cool' and for a long time that was all she saw - a cool, good looking guy. She probably hadn't even spoken a single word to him before she decided to crush on him. And sure, she got to know him a little better as they worked together in Team 7, but by then her crush had already developed making it difficult to reevaluate and see him from a non-romantic view. 

If there was an actual reason behind Sakura's crush asides from 'he's hot stuff and everyone wants him so I'll fight for him' then I might consider SasuSaku, but there isn't. The only arguement I could come up with from a SasuSaku point of view would be that Sakura is a healer, and Sasuke is one of the characters most in need of healing. That might be an appeal to her - perhaps her love developed because she wanted to save Sasuke from his pain. Some woman are attracted to men that they can help emotionally. However, it's not really an attraction to _them_, and more an attraction to their problem and the desire to fix it, pity or empathy.

But I'll be honest - I don't remember most of the beginning of the manga so I could be missing some key moments. I never really considered SasuSaku at all when I first started Naruto so didn't make the effort to mentally take any notes. The same with NaruHina - there just wasn't enough background on either for me to bother with.


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## Afalstein (Jun 15, 2009)

Gonna take these two points together because they're related.



mystic868 said:


> *Spoiler*: _TAG MANGA INFO_
> 
> 
> 
> ...





shurei said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A number of good arguments, all very worth answering.  I'll give my opinion on the specific instances and then respond to the broad issue.  They're rather long, so I'll make them that you don't have to read.  Just look to the one's you're interested in.

On Hinata's closure...

*Spoiler*: __ 



The point about Hinata's confession is a good one, actually.  I used to put a good deal of emphasis on the fact that Hinata didn't actually die there.  The contention was that if the confession was all there was intended to be for her character, it would have been perfectly fine for her to die.  Expected, even.  And Kishi passed it up, which meant he had more for her to do, which meant that her role was not fulfilled.

That's lost some of it's importance now, as it's become evident that NO ONE in the village was intended to stay dead.  You can argue that special attention was drawn to Hinata through her natural survival, but the point is that regardless of how she was stabbed by Pain, she was going to live.  I don't know.  In theory, she could have been accidently killed by Naruto going Kyuubi (like his hurting Sakura before), but that's all speculative.

However you view it though, the confession as it stands is NOT closure.  If she had died, it would be, but as it is it needs follow-up, from any point of view.  Even the SakuLee confession had some amount of follow-up.




On Naruto's return...

*Spoiler*: __ 



I've given my opinion on the hug before, but whatever.  It's definitely a public moment, which means Sakura is either the grand finale of the village's universal acceptance or that she's simply not ashamed to hug Naruto in front of everyone.

(Not sure if shame is the right tack to take, though.  Sakura's never been ashamed about liking Naruto, just confused as to whether she does.)

In any case.  Can't pretend the scene is unimportant. Prior to his return, everyone, NH included, was saying "wait till he gets back to the village, and then we'll see."  Well, he got back to the village.  So it's a definite setback.

But I'd like to connect this to Mystic's point.  Kishi can be terrible at development at times.  Both Hinata's and Sakura's.  He hasn't done good follow-up for Sakura on a number of things, is it so surprising that he hasn't followed up on Hinata's thing?




This is one of the big issues.  The primary strong point of the debate is that Sakura is in the manga much more than Hinata is.  There is, to be honest, very little interaction between Naruto and Hinata.  I came on here when I was only familiar with the anime and thought there was a lot more than there is.  But I can't dispute the point that there's little writing done on their relationship.

But my argument... perhaps that of the NH base at large, I dunno... is that this is because Kishi isn't very interested in Romance.  Or at least he finds it difficult to write.  He's more interested in the fights and plot.  Romance is just so much horizon stuff for him.

It doesn't take much to point this out.  After all, most of the girl characters are woefully undeveloped. (including Sakura).  And romance of any kind is hard to come by.  The only canon pairing is AsumaxKurenai, and the only implied one ShikaxTemari.  Even the NS moments are few and far between (though still more than NH)

So the question this really comes down to is:  Does Kishi prefer to write Romance by leaps and bounds?  Or by more quietly implied moments?  The second may be the better way to write it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's what he does.  Personally, if I found certain kinds of writing difficult, I think I'd do them as little as possible and get through them as fast as I can.

But then, I'm not Kishi.  Now, to throw a new wrench into all this, I want opinions on the latest development.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto's conversation with Sakura, and the approach of Sasuke.  Discuss.


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## JERITROLL (Jun 15, 2009)

Heh, you bet.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto's conversation with Sakura just shows that the two have become that close as friends at the very least. Sakura's miserable because Tsunade died, and yet she's the one comforting Naruto! The thanks from this chapter has to do with Naruto's handling of the situation, nothing more. I'm sure plenty of people will try to over analyze this because of it's placement after the love triangle comment. Judging by Sakura's body language, the whole situation was making her uncomfortable, so Naruto took care of it. Thus the thank you. 

Now, Sasuke's return. This is when we will see what's left of Sakura's crush from Part 1. Keep in mind his goal of eradicating Kohona. I could see open hostility when he encounters Naruto and Sakura directed towards both of them, just as it was back at their last encounter. I personally think this will be the final nail in SasuSaku's coffin, but this is only my opinion on things. There's always the chance that Sakura still harbors the crush (which I feel would not only be ridiculous, but would also kill most of the development she has received since Naruto's return from VotE), but I severly doubt it.




But it's Kishi's manga, he can do whatever he wants and I can be completely wrong.


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## Chippy (Jun 15, 2009)

Well, judging from last chapter:


*Spoiler*: __ 



The comment of 'love triangle' may just indicate something in the upcoming arc. This arc is probably the 'Team 7 arc', the arc where Kishi has said he'd focus on Kakashi and Sakura. While I'm pretty sure Sakura will at least get a fight, a main bit of her development might be a choice itself:

Sasuke or Naruto?


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## Afalstein (Jun 15, 2009)

Chippy said:


> Well, judging from last chapter:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



He did say that?  Oh thank goodness.  Heaven knows Sakura needs more development, I thought there was a hint of some further growth in that comment of hers.



TwilightLink20xx said:


> Heh, you bet.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Agreed on the Sasu/Saku thing.  Don't know about the final nail, but it definitely should show where things have gone.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura being uncomfortable shows that the issue of Sasuke is still a touchy one with her, she's not over it at all.  Even if she doesn't have the crush, she's got some issues to work out with Sasuke.  Do you think the two might fight?  

I'm not so sure about the love triangle comment.  On the one hand, Sasuke DIDN'T leave because of the triangle, so it's a plain fact.  It definitely emphasizes the Team 7 nature, and again, opens it up for dealing with Sasu/Saku.  I've heard that Naruto said it just to comfort Sakura, but I'm pretty sure he's doing it for his own sake as much as hers.  Though that doesn't change the fact that she's grateful to him for smoothing it over.


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## Tyrannos (Jun 15, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _Eh Twilight_ 



Tsunade isn't dead, she's in a coma.  







Afalstein said:


> So the question this really comes down to is:  Does Kishi prefer to write Romance by leaps and bounds?  Or by more quietly implied moments?  The second may be the better way to write it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's what he does.  Personally, if I found certain kinds of writing difficult, I think I'd do them as little as possible and get through them as fast as I can.
> 
> But then, I'm not Kishi.  Now, to throw a new wrench into all this, I want opinions on the latest development.



See with battle mangas like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, etc.  Romance is not at the forethought of the mangakas.   Because these stories are meant for Japanese male teenagers.  So any romance in the story is going to be very simple.  

That's why Shonen mangas tend to have the first girl the main character encounters or the girl the main character likes, end up being the romantic interest.


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## Chippy (Jun 15, 2009)

Well Afa, he said in an interview he'd focus on Kakashi and Sakura, Kakashi especially, and that Naruto would have to wait. This was a bit before the Pain arc if irc, so I imagine this is where their development would be.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 15, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: _Eh Twilight_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Logically this would make sense, which is why I ultimately decided to choose Narusaku after much contemplation. Even though the feelings between Naruto and Sakura are still too ambiguous to come to an absolute conclusion, there is at least enough room to make it a real possibility. The thing that irks me the most with the other pairings is that it is so far undoubtedly one-sided. The NH and SS pairings don't have moments where there is *mutual* communication and understanding. Regardless of whether you want to claim if Narusaku will turn out to be romantic or not, there is no denying that they have the most genuine mutual interactions out of almost any other pairing.


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## Burnout4 (Jun 15, 2009)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> Logically this would make sense, which is why I ultimately decided to choose Narusaku after much contemplation. Even though the feelings between Naruto and Sakura are still too ambiguous to come to an absolute conclusion, there is at least enough room to make it a real possibility. The thing that irks me the most with the other pairings is that it is so far undoubtedly one-sided. The NH and SS pairings don't have moments where there is *mutual* communication and understanding. Regardless of whether you want to claim if Narusaku will turn out to be romantic or not, there is no denying that they have *the most genuine mutual interactions out of almost any other pairing*.


I see you haven't read part 1, watched the fillers, played the video games, and seen the shippuden special. Mostly, NaruHina is advertised far more than NaruSaku and it's everywhere in the media. That and the fact Kishimoto drew Hinata first before Sakura was even thought up and said he planned to make her the focus of Naruto's romantic interest shows me, this pairing is a unqiue concept compared to shonen main girl x main guy pairings.


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## Forlong (Jun 15, 2009)

Yay, we made 100 pages!
 

That asside, the whole issue with the most recient chapter.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura is contused as to why she's comforting Naruto, when she's so depressed.  She cares more about his feelings than her own, and doesn't quite understand why.  This reflects what Kishi-sensei has said in the databooks: "Sakura is unsure about her feelings toward Naruto".

I didn't expect to see those two guys from the Zabuza arc.  What were their names again?  I didn't really care.


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## mystic868 (Jun 15, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Although NS relations are still ambiguous, they're pretty close to each other. Well if Kishi-sama decided to develop Sakura's character then it's still far from it. I understand that Sakura is tired of this all events+sad because of her sensei but Naruto was also sad when pervsanin died, yet he rather wanted to spend time alone than complaining about cheering up the others(even if that was thought it was still there and it is damn annoying). If Sakura's feelings for Naruto are really serious she should prove it truly doing sth he will notice(and understand it's meaning). Maybe sth like that will occur soon when Sasuke will return to Konoha. It's also possible to have a little rebellion in Konoha(including "Who will finally be the Hokage" fight) and that Naruto and his friends along with Tsunade will run from the village and during their absence Sasuke will destroy village once again along with this damn old geezer ^^ And they will meet later in other circumstances.


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## JERITROLL (Jun 15, 2009)

Tyrannos said:


> *Spoiler*: _Eh Twilight_
> 
> 
> 
> Tsunade isn't dead, she's in a coma.




GAH! *slaps forehead* Dang it, I knew that!!!
*Spoiler*: __ 



I MEANT COMA!!! 

Anyways, more reason for Sasuke to head towards the Kage house .




Anyways, Alfastine:


*Spoiler*: __ 



I do, actually. I think that it's going to be Naruto and Sasuke fighting at first, but Sakura will make her choice then and there. It should resolve everything quickly if she decides to grab her Kunai and fight. But that's assuming Kishi is headed down that direction, of course. 

If it's the other way, well.... Yeah, it'll probably end up in a fight anyway. I just don't see Sakura siding with Sasuke on this one.

*I'm not talking about the final fight, just a skirmish that's bound to happen.


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## IHaveNoName (Jun 15, 2009)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> Logically this would make sense, which is why I ultimately decided to choose Narusaku after much contemplation. Even though the feelings between Naruto and Sakura are still too ambiguous to come to an absolute conclusion, there is at least enough room to make it a real possibility. The thing that irks me the most with the other pairings is that it is so far undoubtedly one-sided. The NH and SS pairings don't have moments where there is *mutual* communication and understanding. Regardless of whether you want to claim if Narusaku will turn out to be romantic or not, there is no denying that they have the most genuine mutual interactions out of almost any other pairing.




*Spoiler*: __ 



That's also why I'M a supporter of NaruSaku. Unlike NaruHina and SasuSaku, which is closer to a "girl has crush on boy but boy doesn't really care all that much" kind of relationship. That kind of pairing REALLY bugs me. If you think about it, Naruto _does_ care for Hinata all right, but in the same way he would a friend. Sasuke...I'm not too sure, but I think it's kinda obvious he doesn't really (at this moment) express particular interest in pursuing a romantic relationship with Sakura. Considering NaruSaku is most two-sided of the three pairings, I think it's fit to say that it's the most plausible one.


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## Afalstein (Jun 15, 2009)

Forlong said:


> Yay, we made 100 pages!
> 
> 
> That asside, the whole issue with the most recient chapter.
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes and no.  "Unsure" can mean a lot of things, and that's reflected here.  She's not wondering why she's comforting Naruto so much as feeling that she needs comfort herself.  (Which she does, obviously, it's her mentor after all.)  The thing that's at the forefront of her mind is her own need for comfort. It's passive.  She's simply not demanding comfort, though she wants it.

Quick note though.  I'm not going to say this is a selfish thought of Sakura's (That's a STUPID argument and I'm not going to go there.)  But it does maybe show that these two aren't quite as much in sync as they're often made out to be.  Naruto's supposed to be the attentive boyfreind willing to serve every need of Sakura's, and Sakura's supposed to be the tough cookie who is slowly softening due to knowing Naruto so well.  

You could say this shows Sakura's softening (as Forlong does above), but this is definitely a blow against Naruto's position as the attentive idolizer.  Understandable, true--the guy's been through a lot today, after all.  But he somehow completely misses how Sakura must be feeling about Tsunade.


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## JERITROLL (Jun 15, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
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*Spoiler*: __ 



 That's true, but it could mean that she's noticing something is wrong with Naruto. Remember, he clearly states that he had a lot of questions for her. They are questions no one else can answer, and I'm sure they have to do with the 4th Hokage. Naruto's mind is probably running on these thoughts, thus his not noticing Sakura's pain (who isn't visibly showing anything easily noticeable. I'm not giving Naruto a free pass here, he knows what to look for, but if he isn't paying attention, how could he?). 

I'm certain that there's a bit of both in it, but we won't know for a little while.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 15, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
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*Spoiler*: __ 



He redeemed himself by noticing how uncomfortable she was on the Sasuke topic and fabricated half a lie to make the situation better. She even thanks him silently which shows that she appreciates the gesture. How is that not being attentive?


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## IHaveNoName (Jun 16, 2009)

Afalstein said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'll have to disagree. Naruto can be sensitive to how Sakura is feeling, and before Naruto had a chance to try and comfort her, they were interrupted by Tazuna and Inari. He never actuallly got a chance to say anything or to show that he does know how he was feeling. Also, when Sasuke was mentioned, Naruto knew how Sakura felt about the issue, and acted accordingly. Sakura then thanked Naruto for the gesture.

Although I believe that Naruto and Sakura will eventually become a pairing, it doesn't mean they have to be completely understanding of each other at this point in time. Their relationship has been building for several years, but it's only recently started to show through.


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## mystic868 (Jun 16, 2009)

trihrams said:


> Confession > Hug, so NaruHina > NaruSaku.



That's silly comparision. You meant that Hinata's one sided Confession without ending and reciprocation? If yes then it's not even suitable to compare it with Sakura's hug.


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## m o l o k o (Jun 16, 2009)

Burnout4 said:


> I see you haven't read part 1, watched the fillers, played the video games, and seen the shippuden special. Mostly, NaruHina is advertised far more than NaruSaku and it's everywhere in the media. That and *the fact Kishimoto drew Hinata first before Sakura was even thought up and said he planned to make her the focus of Naruto's romantic interest *shows me, this pairing is a unqiue concept compared to shonen main girl x main guy pairings.



1. What?s up with Part 1? Naruto had a lot more interaction with Sakura than with Hinata in there. Also he slowly changed from being disliked by Sakura to becoming a close friend, while Naruto and Hinata were... introduced. He came to know and understand her better.
2. Fillers and video games hardly can be used as evidence.

For the bolded part: Where did that come from?


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## IHaveNoName (Jun 16, 2009)

Burnout4 said:


> I see you haven't read part 1, watched the fillers, played the video games, and seen the shippuden special. Mostly, NaruHina is advertised far more than NaruSaku and it's everywhere in the media. That and the fact Kishimoto drew Hinata first before Sakura was even thought up and said he planned to make her the focus of Naruto's romantic interest shows me, this pairing is a unqiue concept compared to shonen main girl x main guy pairings.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Um...didn't Sakura appear first way before Hinata? Sakura's debut was the third chapter, while Hinata appeared in Chapter...34...


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## Kakugo (Jun 16, 2009)

Kishimoto had made a statement a while back referring to that he hopes "Hinata will have her chance", and she got exactly that. She was out of the spotlight for quite a long time and was long due for a moment to demonstrate any growth on her part, and by her act in chapter 437, she displayed *Hinata* development. She being put back into the shadows again shouldn't be rendered as much of a shock or surprise to anyone, and to this day I don't know why people continue to neglect the fact that she is a *side character*. You cannot expect a side character to make continuous and regular appearances (which is among the things I find to be essential when it comes to mutual development between two characters). If/when Hinata becomes relevant to the plot, perhaps then you could expect more of her. In the mean time, Naruto and Sakura are continuing to spend time together and mutually grow closer to one another, which is a development that I cannot say that Naruto and Hinata share; because clearly they don't.


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## Inuhanyou (Jun 16, 2009)

Kakugo said:


> Kishimoto had made a statement a while back referring to that he hopes "Hinata will have her chance", and she got exactly that.



Just to correct you, Kishimoto said nothing about that..an interviewer said he hoped Hinata had her chance, Kishimoto responded with "me too".


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 16, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



It crossed my mind today that this thread should also add Sasukarin to the mix. While Naruto and Sakura have spent a lot of time together, Karin also has spent time with Sasuke (although to a much lesser degree than Narusaku). Nevertheless, I'm amazed no one has pointed out that even if Sakura is still interested in Sasuke the way she used to (highly unlikely), she would have Karin as her competition. It would be just like Sakura vs Ino in part 1. Foreseeing that both teams will eventually meet/clash, I can see Sakura seeing Karin as her old former self (immature, clingy, and obsessed). This just adds to my belief of why Sasusaku is the most least likely out of all the possible parings to happen at this point while Narusaku is the most likely.


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## Afalstein (Jun 16, 2009)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It crossed my mind today that this thread should also add Sasukarin to the mix. While Naruto and Sakura have spent a lot of time together, Karin also has spent time with Sasuke (although to a much lesser degree than Narusaku). Nevertheless, I'm amazed no one has pointed out that even if Sakura is still interested in Sasuke the way she used to (highly unlikely), she would have Karin as her competition. It would be just like Sakura vs Ino in part 1. Foreseeing that both teams will eventually meet/clash, I can see Sakura seeing Karin as her old former self (immature, clingy, and obsessed). This just adds to my belief of why Sasusaku is the most least likely out of all the possible parings to happen at this point while Narusaku is the most likely.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Ha.  I started a thread on this predicting a future Sakura vs. Karin fight.  The general consensus was that it would ruin both their characters, especially as Karin can't do anything besides bite herself.  

Personally I think it will happen anyway.  Kishi's foreshadowed it a little bit, and it would be completely in character.  Actually, when you think about it, the Saku vs. Ino fight didn't really destroy her character, it gave us some insight into "Inner Sakura" and the two's rivalry.


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