# Obito Vs Itachi



## GilgameshXFate (Jun 29, 2015)

Location: Uchiha Hideout
Distance: Sasuke Vs Itachi, just replace Sasuke with Obito
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: This is Pre Rinnegan Obito, and Sick Itachi
Scenario: Instead of Sasuke showed up, Obito warps in and decides to settle things with Itachi personally.


Was Obito's "Fear" of Itachi warranted? Or could Obito kill Itachi if he went all out?


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## ShadoLord (Jun 29, 2015)

I really can't see Itachi winning this, not only is he time-limited in his weakened form but Tobi is simply much stronger as he can avoid any type of attack with his kamui, and his genjutsu can cancel out tsukuyomi, amatertasu is useless. He can also use the mokuton, everything points toward Tobi being stronger.


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## Matty (Jun 29, 2015)

Does Obito ever use genjutsu? I don't remember that. Does Itachi know of his ST jutsus? Because Itachi with that knowledge can win. More than likely he is fucked even if he does know though because he is so weak at this point. Without that weakness ITachi wins. With it Obito low difs


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## Empathy (Jun 29, 2015)

If Obito truly wanted to, he could've had Itachi killed. Not that he could necessarily kill him himself (I think a fight between the two could be close enough where the victor is indiscernible), but if he outed Itachi as a traitor, then Itachi's moving hideouts every three days like Orochimaru or something. Obito still had the strongest Akatsuki member, Nagato, under his thumb by the time of Itachi's death. He could've lured Itachi into a trap under the guise of a meeting, and even Itachi can't handle a whole group of Akatsuki members at once. But why go through all that trouble when he still had Itachi working for him and knew he was living on burrowed time? He also stated the other Akatsuki members' lives were worth gaining control of Sasuke.


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## Kai (Jun 29, 2015)

Obito also knew everything about Itachi since Itachi was a boy, and self admittedly kept a couple secret(s) even from him, always making sure to stay one step ahead. Obito knew Itachi had extensive knowledge on "Madara's" existence, the inner workings of Akatsuki, as well as the inner workings of the Leaf Village. Itachi is the only other member of Akatsuki with this kind of intel, and Obito had to be very cautious in how he operated around Itachi but knew Itachi could be used to his advantage for the organization's benefit at the same time.

Never once did Obito express fear over Itachi's techniques. He knew all about Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susanoo already.


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

Obito wins low to mid difficult at most.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

Couple things here:

*If Itachi has knowledge, Obito dies. Canon.*



*Obito fled from Itachi after Itachi said he knew a way around Kamui*

[youtube]IEKiAonlYXc[/youtube]

*Obito waited YEARS because of Itachi's looming presence.*



*Itachi said Obito was a "pathetic shell" of Madara.*



*Itachi did not think he'd lose to Obito, in any capacity.*



*Conclusion*

Obito plain and simply _did not want to fuck with Itachi_.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2015)

Itachi wins this without quesiton.
Izanami is the perfect counter for Obito.

If you restrtict Izanami, then you have to restrict Izanagi to make it fair, and then Itachi still wins.

There is a reason why Obito never crossed Itachi.

I used to think Obito'd have a shot because he potentially could outlast Itachi with Izanagi, but after learning Itachi had the technique specifically made to counter Obito's trump card, things have changed.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 29, 2015)

Obito wins, there isn't anything Itachi can do about the intangibility, something that took Minato w/Hiraishin in order to counter. Itachi in his weakened state wouldn't be able to compete at all.


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi wins this without quesiton.
> Izanami is the perfect counter for Obito.
> 
> If you restrtict Izanami, then you have to restrict Izanagi to make it fair, and then Itachi still wins.
> ...



How is itachi going to touch Obito twice in order to use Izanami?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How is itachi going to touch Obito twice in order to use Izanami?



The same way he didn't touch Kabuto


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

He did. 
That's the whole point of the clones, and the stabbing. Izanami require a physical contact. 

Kamui makes that impossible for him to do..

Also, Itachi does not really have the type of attacks to force Obito to use Izanagi to begin with.


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## Kai (Jun 29, 2015)

Y'all want to campaign Izanami > Izanagi for the fight's outcome when Kamui, Obito's signature technique, counters Izanami, a physical sensation based ninjutsu. Kamui completely phases through Izanami's hunger for physical contact 



Strategoob said:


> *If Itachi has knowledge, Obito dies. Canon.*


Yeah, not much different than Pain praising Jiraiya after his death. 

Postmortem praise for the one that died as a high sign of respect for the other's skill.


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

> Yeah, not much different than Pain praising Jiraiya after his death.


There is a different actually. 
Jiraiya faced Pain directly. Itachi was only able to do so by using Sasuke. Which is different than when
you face an opponent and you are trying to be on-guard at all time.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He did.
> That's the whole point of the clones, and the stabbing. Izanami require a physical contact.
> 
> Kamui makes that impossible for him to do..
> ...



Itachi didn't touch Kabuto. Kabuto stabbed him, which created the physical sensation.

Obito grabs his opponents so that he can warp them and he is a one trick pony, he repeatedly tried to do it to Minato or others he fought.


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

Obito uses izanagi and wins 
Short of that he isn't going to beat itachi through Susanoo
How is he going to physically become tangible inside itachi chakra and not get murdered 

He could exhaust itachi as well but seeing that I havent seen a fight in the manga where one plays for time 

Gotta go with izanagi takes it


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Obito uses izanagi and wins
> Short of that he isn't going to beat itachi through Susanoo
> How is he going to physically become tangible inside itachi chakra and not get murdered
> 
> ...



You think the same Itachi that faced Sasuke is going to have the stamina to go against Obito?


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

stabbing the clone was considered to be physical contact. I don't know how that makes sense honestly, but it's Kishi, and he wanted itachi and Sasuke to win regardless, so all we can do is to go with that. 



> Obito grabs his opponents so that he can warp them and he is a one trick pony, he repeatedly tried to do it to Minato or others he fought.



That's true. 

But can you perhaps suggest one of itachi's jutsu that continue more than 10 minutes, and Obito can do nothing about it, except with Izanagi?


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> You think the same Itachi that faced Sasuke is going to have the stamina to go against Obito?



Like I said Unless obito plays for time then yes
Sick itachi only needs V1 susanoo to force obito to exhaust him

Obito cannot become tangible within susanoo and wrap itachi before susanoo cuts him in half 

It doesn't require itachi to move to strike and it would strike quick if obito is already surrounded by itachi susanoo


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

> Obito cannot become tangible within susanoo and wrap itachi before susanoo cuts him in half



Says who? 
How is Susanoo going to cut him in half, if he is already inside it?


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2015)

Obito avoids everything Itachi tries or sets up thanks to Kamui phasing and teleporting, with far better reflexes, physical speed + mobility and stamina. Itachi is smarter yeah but he can do nothing here. Obito surprises and warps him.


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Like I said Unless obito plays for time then yes
> Sick itachi only needs V1 susanoo to force obito to exhaust him
> 
> Obito cannot become tangible within susanoo and wrap itachi before susanoo cuts him in half
> ...



Obito feints to warp, phases through Itachi's counterattack, then warps. Easy.


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

Lol Hussain its chakra that itachi can shape how he wants that much is obvious 

Obito being inside itachi chakra simply means itachi murks him once he becomes tangible in that chakra . Think about obito trying to wrap BM naruto when naruto is in his avatar . Is obito going to jump into the avatar and wrap naruto?

Susanoo is faster than obito physically. No point debating that

@raikiri19 feinting to wrap works but U forget itachi can also attack while within susanoo with other attacks

So if susanoo gets feinted then itachi attacks with other jutsu while in susanoo 

Now with the ability to create clones so quick neither EMS Sasuke or kabuto could tell leads me to believe itachi at the very least can counter a feint 

Also he can feint all he wants but he must be tangible and wrap itachi while being in itachi chakra if itachi susanoo camps


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## Bonly (Jun 29, 2015)

Welp it looks like Itachi has just booked himself a first class flight to the wonderful world of boxland as he will be sucked up eventually


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

Honestly, Obito outclass itachi in everything. 

In term of Genjutsu, it is probably a none factor here, but Obito's feats are superior to itachi with him controlling Yagura, 6 Bijuus at the same time, and Kurama. 

In term of tools, Obito can use the Huge Shurkens he used against BM Naruto, and the Hachibi. Those are obviously stronger than the ragular Kunais itachi uses. He also showed good usage of other type of tools.

In term of elements. Obito can use a Juubi's size fire jutsu. That WAY superior to any fire jutsu itachi has ever showed. He can also use the wood which can pretty much get itachi killed. 

His Kamui makes Amatersu and Susanoo useless. 

And he has the uchiha barrier or whatever it called that stopped the Hachibi's attack on the GM. 

He also outsmarted itachi several times.

And there is no doubt that Obito's chakra far exceeds itachi it is not even funny.

The only thing itachi is better than Obito with is hand-seals, which obito does not need in his fighting style anyway.


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol Hussain its chakra that itachi can shape how he wants that much is obvious
> 
> Obito being inside itachi chakra simply means itachi murks him once he becomes tangible in that chakra . Think about obito trying to wrap BM naruto when naruto is in his avatar . Is obito going to jump into the avatar and wrap naruto?
> 
> ...



Obito thanks to his reflexes and Kamui phasing would have never been hit by a team made of BM Naruto, War Arc Kakashi and Gai. And Killer B too, not that he did much but anyway he was still here. Itachi hitting him is simply not happening.


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol Hussain its chakra that itachi can shape how he wants that much is obvious
> 
> Obito being inside itachi chakra simply means itachi murks him once he becomes tangible in that chakra . Think about obito trying to wrap BM naruto when naruto is in his avatar . Is obito going to jump into the avatar and wrap naruto?
> 
> Susanoo is faster than obito physically. No point debating that



Pfff, no, the Susanoo has a specific shape, he can't make it look like a turtle, or bird for example.  use, he can use parts of it, but the shape remains the same.  

The Susanoo is not going to stab itself, and break itself.  
We have seen that the Susanoo sword can't get through when Tsunade tried to attack madara with his attack.


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Pfff, no, the Susanoo has a specific shape, he can't make it look like a turtle, or bird for example.  use, he can use parts of it, but the shape remains the same.
> 
> The Susanoo is not going to stab itself, and break itself.
> We have seen that the Susanoo sword can't get through when Tsunade tried to attack madara with his attack.



The sword didn't get through because it's madara chakra . It was simply assimilated back into the susanoo structure 

Yes itachi can bring forth part of it so if obito runs through V1 for example he got a little distance before getting to itschi 

If itschi reshapes it to just susanoo arm he got surprise attack obito . Itachi can change its shape from V1 to V2 or vice Versa very simply and quickly which would land a surprise attack 

And no I never implied he could make it look like a turtle don't know why U so quick to troll


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

Kai said:


> Y'all want to campaign Izanami > Izanagi for the fight's outcome when Kamui, Obito's signature technique, counters Izanami, a physical sensation based ninjutsu. Kamui completely phases through Izanami's hunger for physical contact.



How do you figure? Offensive Kamui warping requires physical touch.

The clone-Izanami strategy is perfect for Obito.

Literally the most perfect counter in the manga for Izanagi-Obito.


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Obito thanks to his reflexes and Kamui phasing would have never been hit by a team made of BM Naruto, War Arc Kakashi and Gai. And Killer B too, not that he did much but anyway he was still here. Itachi hitting him is simply not happening.



Obito ability to phase through shit is impressive howveer notice he failed to wrap any of tjem at all 

Obito could even phase through Juudara point blank attack so there isn't a question he is the most difficult character to hit 

However he isn't kamui wrapping itachi without risking getting hit by susanoo and its that simple 

Obito thought with MS Sasuke could keep the gokage hostage while he never assumed he could do such 

While that was a nasty horrendous over estimation of Sasuke abilities 

Point still stands he felt Sasuke stood a better chance than himself


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## thechickensage (Jun 29, 2015)

QUESTION ABOUT FIGHTING VS KAMUI: Would this strategy work?

1.  Get a Kunai which has a tag that emits 1000s of liters of poison gas.  Or a kunai that summons explosive tags for 5 minutes.  Or a kunai that has [insert several-minute long AOE damaging jutsu here].

2.  Get Obito to send the kunai into KamuiLand

3.  Kamuiland is now poisoned/burning/exploding/etc for the next 5 minutes.  If Obito chooses to warp parts of himself there, he ends up getting poisoned/burned/exploding.

4.  Fight Obito normally, since he can't warp.


^ wouldn't that work?!!!!  It's different than Konan's method of fighting vs him, which is pretty much unfeasible for anyone but her....or tenten.  Tenten could be Obito .  JP, pls don't obsess over that throwaway, obviously joking statement...

Would it work!??!?!!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2015)

Itachi had to sneak attack Obito via Sasuke because he was too scared to fight Obito himself. Itachi himself said he needed the EMS to have a chance of beating Obito, even then this doesn't factor in the information Itachi didn't have. 

Obito stomps Itachi, easily.


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## StickaStick (Jun 29, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Was Obito's "Fear" of Itachi warranted? Or could Obito kill Itachi if he went all out?


Obito actually had no reason to "confront" Itachi when Itachi for the most part was being a good solider for the Akatsuki and was on his way out eventually anyway. While he could have had Itachi killed if he so chose, the prospect that he might escape or somehow relay information to Konoha and divulge the Ataksuki's (and Tobi's) secrets would have made it a risky proposition ultimately not worth it.

You also might have to change the OP so that Itachi has his PTI health or something so that Obito at least has to work a little bit here, because Obito takes this Itachi--who had trouble dodging a basic shurikien feint after a single use of his MS--behind the wood shed, and might not even need Kamui to do that.


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## Six (Jun 29, 2015)

Obito tries to warp him, gets hit by an exploding clone


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## StickaStick (Jun 29, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Obito tries to warp him, gets hit by an exploding clone


Except for the fact that even PTI Kakashi with only his 3-tomoe was able to discern Itachi's exploding bunshin


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

Kakashi's an ass-load smarter than Obito though.


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## StickaStick (Jun 29, 2015)

Eh, Obito personally one-up'd Kakashi when he fooled him into removing the curse-seal that allowed him to become the Juubi's Jinchuuriki; contrast that to Kakashi fooling Itachi with a clone feint back in early PTII. Generally though yes, Kakashi is a cut above the rest in terms of intelligence.

However, in terms of perceptive abilities which would be the key to discerning something such as an exploding bunshin Obito is clearly a cut above Kakashi at said point given the 3-tomoe versus MS discrepancy.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kakashi's an ass-load smarter than Obito though.




Where did you get this BS from?


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## Amol (Jun 29, 2015)

Obito stomps Itachi.
Itachi has nothing to put Obito down.
Obito even has better Genjutsu feats than him.
Ameratsu, Susanoo are pointless infront of Kamui.
And I am more than sure that Obito is faster than sick Itachi.
Obito warps him up and sends him to Kamui land .


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Eh, Obito personally one-up'd Kakashi when he fooled him into removing the curse-seal that allowed him to become the Juubi's Jinchuuriki; contrast that to Kakashi *fooling Itachi with a clone feint back in early PTII*.



Silly point. Clone feints aren't a sign of superior intellect.

Or else Zabuza > Kakashi. 

But you disagree that Kakashi's smarter overall than Obito?


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## Empathy (Jun 30, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Literally the most perfect counter in the manga for Izanagi-Obito.



How exactly does he spurn Obito to resort to _Izanagi_? I'm not saying that like he can't; I have a vague idea of how he could do it and I'm just interested in your view. Or do you think he could do it without Obito having first used _Izanaji_, like with Kabuto?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 30, 2015)

Itachi puts Obito in Izanami and makes him suck his dick.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Silly point. Clone feints aren't a sign of superior intellect.


Neither is discerning an exploding bunshin a sign of intelligence as much as it is of one's perceptive abilities which, again, Obito is a cut above Kakashi in regards to. 



> But you disagree that Kakashi's smarter overall than Obito?


"Overall" encompasses a lot of aspects in terms of intelligence to the point were I'm hesitant to say as much (even if I already essentially did so), as Kakashi has not been shown to be demonstrably more intelligent than Obito in any area sans pure critical thinking and as I referenced was even out-smarted by Obito in their encounter, albiet unbeknonst to Kakashi. However, to simply answer your query I'll refer to my previous post: 

Me in my previous post: *"Generally though yes, Kakashi is a cut above the rest in terms of intelligence."*


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi puts Obito in Izanami and makes him suck his dick.




How is Izanami possible, when you need to touch someone twice in order to activate it, as soon as Itachi tries to set up the first point hes getting warped, I'll also like to know to not only you but to everyone else, why would Itachi straight up go to Izanami when Itachi only resorted to it once ever, In all of his fights he only used it once. Every other fight Itachi's been in he started off with basic techniques. Hell Itachi himself said Izanami wasn't created for combat purposes to begin with.

Anyway I agree with the majority of the thread that Obito will win, If you break it down its quite simple

*Speed*- a Weaker Obito was only slightly slower then Minato, so this older faster Obito should be ATLEAST the same speed as Itachi if not faster.

*Genjutsu*- Obito's Genjutsu feats shit on Itachi's with being able to keep Yagura a PERFECT JIN under a Genjutsu for YEARS without anyone finding out, thats the best Genjutsu feat in the entire manga.

*Ninjutsu*- Obito's katons shit all over Itachi's and for Amaterasu, Obito can phase through it, and Tsukiyomi wont work, as theres a high chance of Obito being able to break it. Susan'o Totsuka blade cant pierce a intangible being and Yata Mirror can't stop a non corporeal being

Match Verdict: *Obito Mid-High*


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

Empathy said:


> How exactly does he spurn Obito to resort to _Izanagi_? I'm not saying that like he can't; I have a vague idea of how he could do it and I'm just interested in your view. Or do you think he could do it without Obito having first used _Izanaji_, like with Kabuto?



Well the Izanami strategy would work regardless of whether Obito uses Izanagi.

As he just needs two clones to get touch-warped.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 30, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> How is Izanami possible, when you need to touch someone twice in order to activate it, as soon as Itachi tries to set up the first point hes getting warped,



He can use clones, like he did with Kabuto.

Problem solved.



> I'll also like to know to not only you but to everyone else, why would Itachi straight up go to Izanami when Itachi only resorted to it once ever, In all of his fights he only used it once. Every other fight Itachi's been in he started off with basic techniques.



I never said he would use Izanami right away. But everything else up until then is gonna fail, so I just cut out the middleman. There isn't exactly any mystery that needs explaining; anything else Itachi uses is gonna be fazed through with Kamui. Amaterasu is the lone exception, if he gets the timing right, and that's gonna force Obito to use Izanagi (like the Amaterasu trap in the manga).



> Hell Itachi himself said Izanami wasn't created for combat purposes to begin with.



That's obviously not true, since it's a Jutsu created to stop Izanagi, which in turn is activated when the user is killed in *combat.* The way I recall Itachi saying it, Izanami is not _*practical*_ to use in battle because there is a way to escape it. If there is any doubt, perhaps a translator could clarify.



> *Genjutsu*- Obito's Genjutsu feats shit on Itachi's with being able to keep Yagura a PERFECT JIN under a Genjutsu for YEARS without anyone finding out, thats the best Genjutsu feat in the entire manga.



This was an off-panel feat...and something we have no way of comparing to Itachi, because it's not something that should *work* and Kishimoto never addressed *why* it worked. Like I've said in the past, for all we know, Obito got Danzo on the phone and asked for a favor (Kotoamatsukami).


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> > I never said he would use Izanami right away. But everything else up until then is gonna fail, so I just cut out the middleman. There isn't exactly any mystery that needs explaining; anything else Itachi uses is gonna be fazed through with Kamui. Amaterasu is the lone exception, if he gets the timing right, and that's gonna force Obito to use Izanagi (like the Amaterasu trap in the manga).


Well this is all assuming Itachi makes it far enough to try Izanami in the first place as we both know how shitty Itachi's eyesight is at this point, Itachi has no room for error. But speaking of clones if Obito knew about Izanami couldn't he send a clone in to be caught in Izanami, while the real Obito warps behind Itachi?





> That's obviously not true, since it's a Jutsu created to stop Izanagi, which in turn is activated when the user is killed in *combat.* The way I recall Itachi saying it, Izanami is not _*practical*_ to use in battle because there is a way to escape it. If there is any doubt, perhaps a translator could clarify.



Well realistically speaking you can only use Izanagi 2 times ever, before you go blind, unless your Danzo or something. Also I thought they were speaking of Izanagi in a way that people used it to erase any mistakes their made, like any mistakes not necessarily combat related. Say for example if you cheated on your wife and got caught you could Izanagi and then hide the evidence.





> This was an off-panel feat...and something we have no way of comparing to Itachi, because it's not something that should *work* and Kishimoto never addressed *why* it worked. Like I've said in the past, for all we know, Obito got Danzo on the phone and asked for a favor (Kotoamatsukami).



Well theres also the feat of Obito controlling the Kyubi, the only other Uchiha to do that was Madara. But the real point I was trying to make is that Obito probably would be able to break any of Itachi's genjutsu so its kinda of a non factor.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

Izanagi works by time.

Danzo's Izanagi was 1 minute per eye.

Obito is more refined, and is 5 minutes per eye.

You can die as much as you want and respawn in that timeframe.

(And Obito was constantly dying to Konan's trap, but was immortal via Izanagi.)


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> > I wonder about a couple of things:
> >
> > 1) Are clones even a conventional part of Obito's arsenal? It's not exactly an exclusive Jutsu, but Kishimoto seems to pick and choose who uses them regularly--probably because this manga would drag on forever if everyone could just clone feint everything, and that shit would get older even faster than it did. Think about it: Why didn't Obito just clone feint his mutual stab with Kakashi? Or reverse it, and why didn't Kakashi just clone feint their mutual stab? Shit makes no sense, except even Kishimoto gets bored with that gag.
> 
> ...


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> How is Izanami possible..


It's not; well, at least with any kind of respectable likelihood. 

Anyone who tries to sell the idea that Obito is going to carelessly warp a clone, and against Itachi of all people, without first testing it as he consistently did in canon against KCM Naruto is trying to sell a bill of goods. The most likely outcome is that Obito sniffs out the real Itachi through the deception and then sends him on an extended vacation. That, or Itachi keels over first through chakra exhaustion.


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## Ersa (Jun 30, 2015)

Although I have been the original Minato fan since 09' and despise Itachi, he is simply too perfect and the difference between them is huge. It hurts me to say it but I think Itachi will win this. As a extensively, skilled debater Obito is a pedo and his tactics and analysis are not on par with Itachi. He will be read by Itachi and suck a clone into his dimension. 

This is why I choose to support characters like Minato over Itachi, because they are not strong or perfect but pedophiles. It's also why I despise Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> stabbing the clone was considered to be physical contact. I don't know how that makes sense honestly, but it's Kishi, and he wanted itachi and Sasuke to win regardless, so all we can do is to go with that.


What would you call it then ? Stabbing someone with a sword is as physical as it can get. 



> That's true.
> 
> But can you perhaps suggest one of itachi's jutsu that continue more than 10 minutes, and Obito can do nothing about it, except with Izanagi?



Wot ?



StickaStick said:


> It's not; well, at least with any kind of respectable likelihood.
> 
> Anyone who tries to sell the idea that Obito is going to carelessly warp a clone, and against Itachi of all people, without first testing it as he consistently did in canon against KCM Naruto is trying to sell a bill of goods. The most likely outcome is that Obito sniffs out the real Itachi through the deception and then sends him on an extended vacation. That, or Itachi keels over first through chakra exhaustion.



He'll get caught by Izanami regardless of what he does.

If he is afraid to warp a clone and attempts to pop it with a kunai, that also can be used an instance to start Izanami.

Obito's limited skillset makes him one of the easiest Izanami wins Itachi'd ever have in this manga.

I think the notion that "Obito didn't dare to cross Itachi" became perfectly justified after we learned about Izanami.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 30, 2015)

Itachi managed to perform the same trick twice against a perceptive Sage User.

 That's very impressive.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Yes and the condition was pretty ridicluous.

Its pretty dumb to think that Itachi can't replicate a much less complicated instance alot easier. And Obito is one of the least versatile Shinobi in the series.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Izanagi works by time.
> 
> Danzo's Izanagi was 1 minute per eye.
> 
> ...


Or maybe he died just once and then went intangible for 5 minutes.


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## Ersa (Jun 30, 2015)

I'd disagree on Obito not being versatile. While he primarily relies on Kamui, he is pretty well versed in all areas. 

As for the actual thread, sick Itachi probably loses to Obito. While he has the tools to deal with him, he simply won't get there while sick. Use of clones and MS will be needed to fend off Kamui and he doesn't have that luxury for long. Izanami is an option but Obito is pretty smart. He'll need Edo perks to win here.


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## Icegaze (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Eh, Obito personally one-up'd Kakashi when he fooled him into removing the curse-seal that allowed him to become the Juubi's Jinchuuriki; contrast that to Kakashi fooling Itachi with a clone feint back in early PTII. Generally though yes, Kakashi is a cut above the rest in terms of intelligence.
> 
> However, in terms of perceptive abilities which would be the key to discerning something such as an exploding bunshin Obito is clearly a cut above Kakashi at said point given the 3-tomoe versus MS discrepancy.



only EMS though for sure can distinguish a clone from the original obito is not immune to being tricked by itachi exploding bunshin. Even war arc obito couldnt tell the original naruto from the clone 

exploding bunshin to me is a sure way to get the first hit on obito 

what do you think about obito being able to run through susanoo and wrap itachi before itachi can change the form of susanoo to counter attack 

keep in mind sasuke went from no susanoo to V1 in the time it took danzo to swing at point blank range

this is an inexperienced sasuke with susanoo who was restrained by a cursed seal

obito hasnt shown physical speed far above danzo for me to believe he phases through V1 or higher forms of susanoo(which arent needed) grabs itachi and wraps him before itachi changes the form of susanoo to counter attack


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Or maybe he died just once and then went intangible for 5 minutes.



This could very well be the case. 



Ersatz said:


> I'd disagree on Obito not being versatile. While he primarily relies on Kamui, he is pretty well versed in all areas.



Post war arc perhaps. 

The dude tried to use chains against Minato 
It also demonstrates how he needs his opponent to stay in one place to be able to properly warp them.


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## Ersa (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Post war arc perhaps.
> 
> The dude tried to use chains against Minato
> 
> It also demonstrates how he needs his opponent to stay in one place to be able to properly warp them.


Which is why it's absolutely comical that anyone could reason 14 year old Obito is equal to his War Arc self.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Which is why it's absolutely comical that anyone could reason 14 year old Obito is equal to his War Arc self.



OP specified this is pre Rinnegan Obito, so I assumed this is pre-war arc Obito who was also a one trick pony with 0 versatility.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> OP specified this is pre Rinnegan Obito, so I assumed this is pre-war arc Obito who was also a one trick pony with 0 versatility.


Yeah but I'm certain, Obito could have used his fire jutsu and weapons from kamui land though. I don't think he needed the Rin'negan in order to do that.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He'll get caught by Izanami regardless of what he does.
> 
> If he is afraid to warp a clone and attempts to pop it with a kunai, that also can be used an instance to start Izanami.


Who said anything about popping a clone? 

Obito doesn't have to touch Itachi period unless he's absolutely certain he has the real Itachi; alone he can decipher which is a clone just by feigning to attack while actually staying intangible in order to see how the clone reacts (i.e., whether it's trying to bait an Izanami sensation, etc).

Face it man, Itachi can't win here. And certainly not via Izanagi by having Obito do all the work for him.



> Obito's limited skillset makes him one of the easiest Izanami wins Itachi'd ever have in this manga.


*Obito*:

Kamui Phasing
Kamui Warping
Kamui Projectiles
Izanagi
Juubi-Sized Katons / Bakufū Ranbu
Uchiha Kaenjin
Mokuton

*Itachi*:

Amaterasu
Tsukuyomi
Susano'O
Gōkakyū no Jutsu
Clones / Exploding Bunshin
Izanami (w/ limited application)


Honestly the only reason it's even close is because Itachi had both of his eyes, while Obito was always limited to his one. When Obito possesses both people in Itachi's tier, like Itachi himself, get stomped.



> I think the notion that "Obito didn't dare to cross Itachi" became perfectly justified after we learned about Izanami.


Might want to re-read the manga on that one, because the manga if anything tells us it was Itachi who avoided Obito and used round-about tactics in order to try to kill him; while at the snap of Obito's finger he could have had Itachi killed whenever he wanted and was so not afraid of him that he went as far as to thumb his nose at Itachi by sending him (and Kisame) to Konoha in order to capture Naruto.



Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah but I'm certain, Obito could have used his fire jutsu and weapons from kamui land though. *I don't think he needed the Rin'negan in order to do that.*


He doesn't. I've had this discussion with Grimm before and while he tried to deny Obito's War-Arc feats that easily could be replicated with his pre-Rinnegan self (Akasuki cloak version), he was all too willing to grant Itachi the ability to use Izanami which he displayed in the War-Arc and only as an Edo. Yeah.


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2015)

Using Tensha Fuin: Amaterasu through Sasuke was Itachi's fail-safe move to possibly get rid of Obito.

Anything else simply wasn't practical while Itachi was alive. Obito knows too much about Itachi, more than anyone else aside from Danzo.


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## Reznor (Jun 30, 2015)

> If Itachi has knowledge, Obito dies. Canon.


 That refers specifically to the trap he placed via Sasuke's MS


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Who said anything about popping a clone?
> 
> Obito doesn't have to touch Itachi period unless he's absolutely certain he has the real Itachi; alone he can decipher which is a clone just by feigning to attack while actually staying intangible in order to see how the clone reacts (i.e., whether it's trying to bait an Izanami sensation, etc).


Any kind of contact can be used as Izanagi sensation. What are you suggesting ? Obito sits back and does nothing ? @ the very best case that ends up in a stalemate.
Obito is pretty limited, he has one go to strategy, and that is engaging in CQC, letting an attack phase through him and then grab and warp his opponent at the right time.



> Face it man, Itachi can't win here. And certainly not via Izanagi by having Obito do all the work for him.


There is no way Itachi can lose against Obito, unless the fight is rigged(knowledge advantage or restrictions).
Izanami hard counters obito, and other than that, Obito's only chance is trying to outlast Itachi and he isn't doing it against a smarter fighter.



> Obito:
> Kamui Phasing
> Kamui Warping
> *Kamui Projectiles*
> ...


Bold are war arc feats. 
We already know about Kamui. Izanagi is useless.
His Mokuton is a nonfactor.

I repeat, Kamui is Obito's strongest defense and offense. And he has 1 strategy and that revolves around phasing and grabbing and warping. 



> Might want to re-read the manga on that one, because the manga if anything tells us it was Itachi who avoided Obito and used round-about tactics in order to try to kill him; while at the snap of Obito's finger he could have had Itachi killed whenever he wanted and was so not afraid of him that he went as far as to thumb his nose at Itachi by sending him (and Kisame) to Konoha in order to capture Naruto.


Itachi gave Obito an Ultimatum and Obito was complying. Itachi had absolutely no reason to confront Obito.
But Obito admitted that Itachi stood between him and Konoha and he was a thorn on his side. If he could get rid of Itachi, he certainly would. The fact that he didn't even attempt to do so, is perfectly justified when you know Itachi could have defeated him Izanami.


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But Obito admitted that Itachi stood between him and Konoha and he was a thorn on his side. If he could get rid of Itachi, he certainly would. The fact that he didn't even attempt to do so, is perfectly justified when you know Itachi could have defeated him Izanami.


Itachi was a thorn on his side because he knew where Itachi's allegiances lay but Obito could still use Itachi's services.

If Itachi was of no value to him, he certainly would have gotten rid of Itachi. There was value in using Itachi for his benefit.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 30, 2015)

Both Naruto and Itachi served the same purpose for Obito


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## Icegaze (Jun 30, 2015)

Sorry what are juubi sized katon supposed to do to itachi outside waste his time?
or the moukton obito used?

obito will stick to kamui as that's the only thing remotely threatening


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Any kind of contact can be used as Izanagi sensation. What are you suggesting ? Obito sits back and does nothing ? @ the very best case that ends up in a stalemate.


Correction, best case scenario is Obito discerns the real Itachi and warps him. Worst case scenario is, yes, a draw. Better than losing, however.

Point is, the outcome is in Obito's hands.



> There is no way Itachi can lose against Obito, unless the fight is rigged(knowledge advantage or restrictions).
> Izanami hard counters obito, and other than that, Obito's only chance is trying to outlast Itachi and he isn't doing it against a smarter fighter.


You have it backwards: if Izanagi and Izanami are unrestricted, the best Itachi can hope for it a draw. If both are restricted than Itachi losses pretty convincingly as his win-conditions are all useless against Obito. 



> Bold are war arc feats.


Izanami is a War-Arc feat Grimm.



> I repeat, Kamui is Obito's strongest defense and offense. And he has 1 strategy and that revolves around phasing and grabbing and warping.


If you ignore that this strategy can be complimented by his other abilities, sure. 



> Itachi gave Obito an Ultimatum and Obito was complying. Itachi had absolutely no reason to confront Obito.


Except for the fact that Obito was clearly still set on capturing all the bijuu and doing crazy shit with them. And of course there is Sasuke of which Itachi confirmed his fear of Obito's manipulation when he tried to kill him via a surprise attack. But sure, Itachi had no reason to confront Obito.



> But Obito admitted that Itachi stood between him and Konoha and he was a thorn on his side. If he could get rid of Itachi, he certainly would. The fact that he didn't even attempt to do so, is perfectly justified when you know Itachi could have defeated him Izanami.


When taken into context it makes sense: why would Obito confront Itachi when Itachi was still serving the role of a good solider and possessed secrets that if leaked could be damaging to the Akatsuki and, thus, Obito. In other words, the fear of Itachi pulling a Jiraiya and sending intel to Konoha is what held him back, logically.

This is why there was no reason to go after Itachi despite the fact that he wanted he could have sent Pain + whoever else (including himself) to gang bang Itachi _if he wanted him dead_. Overkill, obviously, but brings the point home.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Kai said:


> Itachi was a thorn on his side because he knew where Itachi's allegiances lay but Obito could still use Itachi's services.


What service exactly ? 



> If Itachi was of no value to him, he certainly would have gotten rid of Itachi. There was value in using Itachi for his benefit.



Speculation.

I am pretty sure Eye of the moon plan was more important than anything, and Obito literally had to wait years for Itachi to die.



StickaStick said:


> Correction, best case scenario is Obito discerns the real Itachi and warps him.


Fanfiction.



> Worst case scenario is, yes, a draw. Better than losing, however.


That is the best case scenario for him, if he initiates a fight he loses. Simple as that.



> Point is, the outcome is in Obito's hands.


Itachi holds Obito's destiny in his hands, as Izanami grants him the capability.



> You have it backwards: if Izanagi and Izanami are unrestricted, the best Itachi can hope for it a draw. If both are restricted than Itachi losses pretty convincingly as his win-conditions are all useless against Obito.


This doesn't even make sense.



> Izanami is a War-Arc feat Grimm.


Did the OP specify this was pre war arc Itachi ? 



> If you ignore that this strategy can be complimented by his other abilities, sure.


Like what ? So for he hasn't done anything different.




> Except for the fact that Obito was clearly still set on capturing all the bijuu and doing crazy shit with them. And of course there is Sasuke of which Itachi confirmed his fear of Obito's manipulation when he tried to kill him via a surprise attack. But sure, Itachi had no reason to confront Obito.


He still couldn't touch Konoha and capture Naruto, which he need to complete moons eye plan.
Itachi only thought about shutting him up in case he and Sasuke crossed paths.



> When taken into context it makes sense: why would Obito confront Itachi when Itachi was still serving the role of a good solider and possessed secrets that if leaked could be damaging to the Akatsuki and, thus, Obito. In other words, the fear of Itachi pulling a Jiraiya and sending intel to Konoha is what held him back, logically.


So you'r saying that keeping Itachi in Akatsuki for a service that didn't do them any good was worth delaying the Moon's eye Plan which was Obito's life time goal ? 



> This is why there was no reason to go after Itachi despite the fact that he wanted he could have sent Pain + whoever else (including himself) to gang bang Itachi _if he wanted him dead_. Overkill, obviously, but brings the point home.



Or he didn't want to risk it.


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## Rocky (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Did the OP specify this was pre war arc Itachi?



He did. Itachi wasn't sick in the war.

Don't know what you're arguing about, but just sayin'.


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry what are juubi sized katon supposed to do to itachi outside waste his time?
> or the moukton obito used?
> 
> obito will stick to kamui as that's the only thing remotely threatening



Waste his time? Other than Susanoo and Amaterasu, that will quickly waste his chakra and weaken himself, Itachi isn't able to hide and move underground and can't fight Obito's Katon head on, they are too powerful for his Suiton and Katon level, the range they cover will be too much even for Itachi's speed, if he spams them and combos with Mokuton, and Kamui projectiles.



StickaStick said:


> Who said anything about popping a clone?
> 
> Obito doesn't have to touch Itachi period unless he's absolutely certain he has the real Itachi; alone he can decipher which is a clone just by feigning to attack while actually staying intangible in order to see how the clone reacts (i.e., whether it's trying to bait an Izanami sensation, etc).
> 
> ...



The funny thing is that Kamui phasing and teleporting alone nullifies all Itachi's offensive arsenal


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fanfiction.


So Obito is going to purposely put himself into an Izanami loop? 

So this is what it takes for Itachi to win, ah I see 



> That is the best case scenario for him, if he initiates a fight he loses. Simple as that.


I already wrote that if he initiates contract at all it will only be under the condition that he's discerned the real Itachi first.



> Itachi holds Obito's destiny in his hands, as Izanami grants him the capability.


It's literally impossible for Itachi to pull off Izanami, because that would require Obito to initiate the contact and under a worst case scenario he doesn't have to.

Simply put, you know your argument is weak as shit when you expect Obito to purposely put himself into the loop when instead he can sit back and do nothing instead.



> This doesn't even make sense.


What part?



> Did the OP specify this was pre war arc Itachi ?





GilgameshXFate said:


> Location: Uchiha Hideout
> Distance: Sasuke Vs Itachi, just replace Sasuke with Obito
> Knowledge: Manga
> Mindset: IC
> ...


I also find it interesting that you would assume that this is War-Arc Itachi but not War-Arc Obito, as if that doesn't show any bias at all.



> He still couldn't touch Konoha and capture Naruto, which he need to complete moons eye plan.
> Itachi only thought about shutting him up in case he and Sasuke crossed paths.


He didn't need to right away, considering the Kyuubi needed to be sealed last and considering the fact that Itachi was due to die soon anyhow then why bother.



> So you'r saying that keeping Itachi in Akatsuki for a service that didn't do them any good was worth delaying the Moon's eye Plan which was Obito's life time goal ?


The mere fact that Itachi wasn't out on his own attempting to foil Obito's plans in an active fashion alone was a beneficial service, as well as aiding in capturing the other bijuu. To your point about the MEP see above.



> Or he didn't want to risk it.


Risk what? That Itachi would defeat Pain + rest of Akatsuki


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## Icegaze (Jun 30, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Waste his time? Other than Susanoo and Amaterasu, that will quickly waste his chakra and weaken himself, Itachi isn't able to hide and move underground and can't fight Obito's Katon head on, they are too powerful for his Suiton and Katon level, the range they cover will be too much even for Itachi's speed, if he spams them and combos with Mokuton, and Kamui projectiles.
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is that Kamui phasing and teleporting alone nullifies all Itachi's offensive arsenal



Rib cage susanoo should suffice. NOw do u assume obito keeps spewing his katon for X amount of time till itachi runs out of steam? 

also amaterasu hard counters it. and actually puts obito at risk if he doesn't phase quickly once amaterasu starts eating the flames. phasing will deactivate the katon. 

so like I said obito katon= wasting obito time 

moukton projectiles are trolled with rib cage and kamui projectiles alike

obito only way of being a risk to itachi is kamui wrap. short of that he is simply buying time for kamui wrap 

though I see obito more likely to use kamui projectiles if susanoo comes out vs trying to touch and grab

kamui phasing nullifies 99.9% of Narutoverse offensive or defensive arsenal


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> So Obito is going to purposely put himself into an Izanami loop?
> 
> So this is what it takes for Itachi to win, ah I see


Izanami is probably the most suble jutsu we've seen so far. Obito won't even know until he is stuck in the loop.
Like I said, to be able to avoid Izanami, he has to avoid all kinds of contact with Itachi.
Considering Kamui warping is his only means of proper offense, he will need to initate Itachi sooner or later. 



> I already wrote that if he initiates contract at all it will only be under the condition that he's discerned the real Itachi first.


There is no way he can discern the real Itachi.

But even if we assume that Obito can magically discern the real one, Itachi can intiaite Izanagi himself, he doesn't need a clone. The moment Obito puts his hand on Itachi, Itachi can flash activate Susano'o and punch him or uses Amaterasu which forces Obito to go intangible. That becomes point A.
Then Itachi can close the loop as meeting the conditions would be very easy.



> It's literally impossible for Itachi to pull off Izanami, because that would require Obito to initiate the contact and under a worst case scenario he doesn't have to.


If he doesn't, then it is stalemate(which is what happened in the manga).
If he does then its most likely a loss.



> Simply put, you know your argument is weak as shit when you expect Obito to purposely put himself into the loop when instead he can sit back and do nothing instead.


If my argument is weak, then why don't you refute it ? 
So far you haven't been able to and your best piece of argument is that Obito sits back and does nothing.
Now thats some strong argument 



> What part?


All of it.
Why does Izanagi being unrestricted makes this a draw ? Izanagi is a non factor as long as Itachi has Izanami.



> I also find it interesting that you would assume that this is War-Arc Itachi but not War-Arc Obito, as if that doesn't show any bias at all.



War Arc Obito has the rinnegan and the war fan was portrayed as a much stronger character overall.
But even if we give him his katons and kamui projectiles, it doesn't change anything in the long run because despite having all those, Obito's main means of offense and defense were always Kamui.
You can read his fight against Kakashi - Gai and Naruto. He phased out, phased in, and attempted to grab and warp them. 



> He didn't need to right away, considering the Kyuubi needed to be sealed last and considering the fact that Itachi was due to die soon anyhow then why bother.


They didn't need to seal Kyuubi, they could have captured Naruto and kept him as a prisoner whenever they wanted. 
Waiting on Naruto surely didn't help as he got stronger, to the extend that Pain couldn't defeat him.
Waiting didn't benefit them in anyway.


> The mere fact that Itachi wasn't out on his own attempting to foil Obito's plans in an active fashion alone was a beneficial service, as well as aiding in capturing the other bijuu. To your point about the MEP see above.


Itachi didn't capture any Bijuu. He helped them seal it, but they'd seal the Bijuu with or without him, so it doesn't matter.



> Risk what? That Itachi would defeat Pain + rest of Akatsuki


I don't think Obito could mobilize Akatsuki on Itachi without Itachi's notice.
Itachi was a thorn on Obito's side when he was idly sitting by. If he was actively working against them, that'd set them back a whole alot more. 
So yeah, Obito didn't want to risk it. 

Like I said, keeping Itachi alive didn't give Obito anything, other than forcing him to postpone his life time goal.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2015)

Itachi was no threat. The only reason Itachi stayed alive was so Sasuke could eventually be within Tobi's grasp.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 30, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi was no threat. The only reason Itachi stayed alive was so Sasuke could eventually be within Tobi's grasp.



Yup that's how I see it too, both Naruto and Itachi were used in order to make sure Sasuke was ready. Personally, I thought Sasuke was Obito's failsafe in the unlikely event the real Madara turned on him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi was no threat. The only reason Itachi stayed alive was so Sasuke could eventually be within Tobi's grasp.



As we've seen afterwards, Sasuke had no part to play in Obito's Moon's eye Plan.
So that excuse isn't going to fly anymore.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

Plus Obito could just take Itachi's eyes if he could kill him.

But Itachi certainly didn't think "Madara's shell" could beat him.

And Obito never indicated he thought he could beat Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yup that's how I see it too, both Naruto and Itachi were used in order to make sure Sasuke was ready. Personally, I thought Sasuke was Obito's failsafe in the unlikely event the real Madara turned on him.



Tobi _did_ have some plan using Sasuke. Though it seemed to go down the gutter when Kabuto revealed that Kabuto had revived Madara. It seemed reviving Madara was never the plan since Nagato betrayed... or reviving Madara became the plan but he planned to use Sasuke, which probably links to your point.

Either way we both agree: the notion that Itachi (who went through the trouble to avoid Obito) was a threat to Obito is inherently flawed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> As we've seen afterwards, Sasuke had no part to play in Obito's Moon's eye Plan.
> So that excuse isn't going to fly anymore.



Of course, that's because any plan Obito had went down the gutter when Madara was revived. That's why he went to get the Rinnegan.

The only excuses that don't fly are the ones the Itachi arguments _choose_ to misinterpret to get its points across... Yet those seem to "fly". 



Strategoob said:


> Plus Obito could just take Itachi's eyes if he could kill him.



You forgot Itachi's death, by Sasuke's hand, is one of the events Tobi used to win Sasuke to his side.



> But Itachi certainly didn't think "Madara's shell" could beat him.



Except he went the extra mile to avoid confronting him, directly.



> And Obito never indicated he thought he could beat Itachi.



He indicated that if Itachi had knowledge, Itachi could design *the seal* to burn more things. Nothing about Itachi's actual battle ability.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 30, 2015)

Empathy said:


> If Obito truly wanted to, he could've had Itachi killed. Not that he could necessarily kill him himself (I think a fight between the two could be close enough where the victor is indiscernible), but if he outed Itachi as a traitor, then Itachi's moving hideouts every three days like Orochimaru or something. Obito still had the strongest Akatsuki member, Nagato, under his thumb by the time of Itachi's death. He could've lured Itachi into a trap under the guise of a meeting, and even Itachi can't handle a whole group of Akatsuki members at once. But why go through all that trouble when he still had Itachi working for him and knew he was living on burrowed time? He also stated the other Akatsuki members' lives were worth gaining control of Sasuke.


Nagat isn't going to follow Obito's command like a dog, especially if it includes killing another Akatsuki member. Both men had their own ideals and methods of doing things. They even had different plans and the only reason why Nagato did what Obito wanted was merely due to both plans having identical steps leading to them (collecting tailed beasts). You can even see it in their dialogue. Nagato always asked how Obito was doing with his tasks to see if he was holding up his end.
Nagato is no fool, if their was something he disagreed with there'd be no way for Obito to force him, as Nagato would just thrash him and sweep him away. As for the other the other members going after Itachi, if Pain didn't command it they wouldn't do it since they didn't recognize Obito as the leader of the organization.

More on topic, Itachi would win, as Obito clearly didn't want to put his plans into action until his main obstacle Itachi was deceased.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Of course, that's because any plan Obito had went down the gutter when Madara was revived. That's why he went to get the Rinnegan.
> 
> The only excuses that don't fly are the ones the Itachi arguments _choose_ to misinterpret to get its points across... Yet those seem to "fly".
> .



So you are admitting that by no means Sasuke was essential in Obito's plans ? 
Good.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you are admitting that by no means Sasuke was essential in Obito's plans ?
> Good.



He was not essential to plan b. 

Now, the only thing you're showing is that you're purposely misinterpreting the manga to force the Itachi point to stick. We had clear pages showing Obito wanted Sasuke on his side. You can *choose* to ignore that, but that will be one of the many sticking points which makes your stance the wrong one.


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Nagat isn't going to follow Obito's command like a dog, especially if it includes killing another Akatsuki member. Both men had their own ideals and methods of doing things. They even had different plans and the only reason why Nagato did what Obito wanted was merely due to both plans having identical steps leading to them (collecting tailed beasts). You can even see it in their dialogue. Nagato always asked how Obito was doing with his tasks to see if he was holding up his end.
> Nagato is no fool, if their was something he disagreed with there'd be no way for Obito to force him, as Nagato would just thrash him and sweep him away. As for the other the other members going after Itachi, if Pain didn't command it they wouldn't do it since they didn't recognize Obito as the leader of the organization.
> 
> More on topic, Itachi would win, as Obito clearly didn't want to put his plans into action until his main obstacle Itachi was deceased.


Nice effort. But I'll just say it like this: Nagato was played like a dog. 

Just like Obito was played like one. Just like Madara was played like one.

I get a good laugh when fans try to skew the circumstances of their favorite manipulated characters into having their own independent agendas when in fact they were operating in the hands of someone else most of their shinobi career. 

BZ/Kaguya > Madara > Obito > Nagato as Kishimoto has structured his manipulative chain and that's pretty much never going to change.

As far as Akatsuki is concerned, Obito never revealed all his cards and made sure to keep the secret(s) to himself. He had everything under control until Kabuto changed the whole game.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What service exactly ?


Itachi actively recruited new Akatsuki members and participated all sealing ceremonies with the Gedo Mazo. He also gave Akatsuki intel on Naruto and Kakashi when Pain ordered him to answer Deidara.

Last but not least, Obito used Itachi's death by Sasuke's hands to win Sasuke over. There was no better way to get Sasuke to his side if Itachi was disposed of by anyone else but Sasuke himself.

You like to say this alot: It's 2015. The big picture should be clear by now


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He was not essential to plan b.
> 
> Now, the only thing you're showing is that you're purposely misinterpreting the manga to force the Itachi point to stick. We had clear pages showing Obito wanted Sasuke on his side. You can *choose* to ignore that, but that will be one of the many sticking points which makes your stance the wrong one.



Obito wanted Sasuke on his side, who wouldn't want a strong shinobi on their side ? 

Was he indispensable ?  No he wasn't. Obito didn't even mention Sasuke's absence once through the entire battle. 

Again, the excuse doesn't fly as we know that Sasuke wasn't an essential piece in Obito's plan.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Izanami is probably the most suble jutsu we've seen so far. Obito won't even know until he is stuck in the loop.
> Like I said, to be able to avoid Izanami, he has to avoid all kinds of contact with Itachi.
> Considering Kamui warping is his only means of proper offense, he will need to initate Itachi sooner or later.


You yourself attributed part of the reason to Obito "avoiding" Itachi to the fact that Itachi possessed Izanami, meaning Obito knows Itachi has Izanami; meaning subtle or not Obito is not going to fall into the trap of triggering the Izanami loop process when instead he can sit back all day with his superior chakra reserves and wait out Itachi. This applies even more so ITT where Itachi is at his sickest point prior to his death.



> There is no way he can discern the real Itachi.


Not true. Like I said, feigning to attack Itachi while remaining intangible would force the targets hand into revealing whether it's a clone or not, as a clone wouldn't attempt to avoid contract while the real Itachi would or otherwise risk being warped.



> But even if we assume that Obito can magically discern the real one, Itachi can intiaite Izanagi himself, he doesn't need a clone. The moment Obito puts his hand on Itachi, Itachi can flash activate Susano'o and punch him or uses Amaterasu which forces Obito to go intangible. That becomes point A.
> Then Itachi can close the loop as meeting the conditions would be very easy.


I think you're focusing too much on Itachi allowing himself to be hit and Obito not doing serious damage in the process. For instance, Obito can send a large Katon his way to skew Itachi's LoS, pop up behind him completely unaware to Itachi (since going intangible erases Obito's chakra presence) and then jab him in the back with a large shuriken, which is an all of nothing proposition seeing as Itachi either has to let it connect to start the loop or attempt to defend himself with, say, Susano'O flash activation. That's just one way Obito can approach the situation, and if he happens to make contract then he won't even need to bother continuing fighting because Itachi will already have suffered a serious wound that will lead to blood loss and further fatigue.



> *If he doesn't, then it is stalemate(which is what happened in the manga)*.
> If he does then its most likely a loss.


I've always felt that both Obito and Itachi were weary of what the other was capable of (hench Obito keeping secrets from Itachi and hence Itachi not risking trying to deal with "Tobi" himself) so I'm fine with this.



> If my argument is weak, then why don't you refute it ?
> So far you haven't been able to and your best piece of argument is that Obito sits back and does nothing.
> Now thats some strong argument


When you're best argument is that an Alive-Itachi is going to resort to Izanami without first testing Obito with his other abilities considering that in the actual manga-canon Itachi thought he could beat Obito with a surprise Ama which clearly shows he underestimated him and quite frankly didn't know jack shit about main power (Kamui) then I can't take this seriously.

Sitting back and doing nothing is hardly something to laugh at when the alternative means death. Or would you also expect Obito to get into a fist fight with an 8th-Gated Gai?



> All of it.
> Why does Izanagi being unrestricted makes this a draw ? Izanagi is a non factor as long as Itachi has Izanami.


I was just pointing out that if each of their jutsu are unrestricted, Izanagi and Izanami respectively, that that means Obito is more likely to settle for a draw since he won't want to get caught in the loop. Izanagi is only unrestricted to make it even with Izanami being unrestricted.



> War Arc Obito has the rinnegan and the war fan was portrayed as a much stronger character overall.
> But even if we give him his katons and kamui projectiles, it doesn't change anything in the long run because despite having all those, Obito's main means of offense and defense were always Kamui.
> You can read his fight against Kakashi - Gai and Naruto. He phased out, phased in, and attempted to grab and warp them.


Initially, yes, But when it became apparent that this straight forward strategy wasn't going to work against them then he started using these other things. It was literally the failure of his ability to simply grab Naruto that led to him expanding his repertoire in the fight. 

BTW, since this is pre-War-Arc Itachi what are your thoughts now on the outcome?



> They didn't need to seal Kyuubi, they could have captured Naruto and kept him as a prisoner whenever they wanted.
> Waiting on Naruto surely didn't help as he got stronger, to the extend that Pain couldn't defeat him.
> Waiting didn't benefit them in anyway.


If that's the route you want to take, then you should talk about why didn't Obito take Naruto the very next day after the Kyuubi-Attack or during the Kage-Summit. Shit doesn't make sense but it doesn't entirely have to either. At the end of the day Obito wasn't concerned with Naruto's power and for good reason; he still ended up in a position to complete Mugen Tsukuyomi but lost for other reasons unrelated to power.



> Itachi didn't capture any Bijuu. He helped them seal it, but they'd seal the Bijuu with or without him, so it doesn't matter.


Adding Itachi to the sealing process doesn't make a difference? And again, even you will agree that Itachi playing a passive role in the Atasuki as opposed to an active one on the frontlines working against Obito was a win in itself.



> I don't think Obito could mobilize Akatsuki on Itachi without Itachi's notice.
> Itachi was a thorn on Obito's side when he was idly sitting by. If he was actively working against them, that'd set them back a whole alot more.
> So yeah, Obito didn't want to risk it.


Obito could warp Pain and himself there.

And yeah, I already said that the risk would not be worth the reward in the off-chance that Itachi someone manged to escape or relay information another way. 



> Like I said, keeping Itachi alive didn't give Obito anything, other than forcing him to postpone his life time goal.


It wasn't postponed since they didn't have the other bijuu yet. Naruto being held captive wouldn't have changed the fact that they were still missing the Hachibi and some others.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito wanted Sasuke on his side, who wouldn't want a strong shinobi on their side ?
> 
> Was he indispensable ?  No he wasn't. Obito didn't even mention Sasuke's absence once through the entire battle.



Taking your approach, to get a this strong shinobi, Itachi had to live. But again, as you chose to ignore the manga you forgot the part where the original plan was to synchronise Sasuke with the Gedo Mazo... a process which involved him getting the EMS.

He didn't care about Sasuke's role the moment Madara was in the picture. I like how you chose to forget this.



> Again, the excuse doesn't fly as we know that Sasuke wasn't an essential piece in Obito's plan.



Again, your take on it doesn't fly unless we ignore key parts of the manga.

Face it: Itachi was just a pawn in Obito's game. That is the only reason why Obito chose not to kill Itachi.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 30, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tobi _did_ have some plan using Sasuke. Though it seemed to go down the gutter when Kabuto revealed that Kabuto had revived Madara. It seemed reviving Madara was never the plan since Nagato betrayed... or reviving Madara became the plan but he planned to use Sasuke, which probably links to your point.
> 
> Either way we both agree: the notion that Itachi (who went through the trouble to avoid Obito) was a threat to Obito is inherently flawed.



Yup, couldn't have said it better myself.

Personally, I don't think Obito planned on resurrecting Madara at all.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yup, couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> *Personally, I don't think Obito planned on resurrecting Madara at all.*


You don't even have to guess, the manga made this abundantly clear. Obito had every intention of starting Mugen Tsukuyomi without Madara, which is funny when you think about how he tried to jack this dude's plan from right under him.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You forgot Itachi's death, by Sasuke's hand, is one of the events Tobi used to win Sasuke to his side.



Excellent point, I agree with you there.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yup, couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> Personally, I don't think Obito planned on resurrecting Madara at all.





StickaStick said:


> You don't even have to guess, the manga made this abundantly clear. Obito had every intention of starting Mugen Tsukuyomi without Madara, which is funny when you think about how he tried to jack this dude's plan from right under him.



It seemed like he did, he was annoyed Nagato couldn't use Rinne Tensei for his sake anymore.  Presumably he wanted Sasuke to be the replacement... but there wouldn't be much use when Madara became an ET.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You don't even have to guess, the manga made this abundantly clear. Obito had every intention of starting Mugen Tsukuyomi without Madara, which is funny when you think about how he tried to jack this dude's plan from right under him.


That genin level intelligence got the better of him


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It seemed like he did, he was annoyed Nagato couldn't use Rinne Tensei for his sake anymore.  Presumably he wanted Sasuke to be the replacement... but there wouldn't be much use when Madara became an ET.


Yeah, I remember, which is odd because Obito wouldn't be able to convert himself into Kaguya would he?

Also, I suppose that's why Zetsu revealed Madara's body to Kabuto.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> Nice effort. But I'll just say it like this: Nagato was played like a dog.
> 
> Just like Obito was played like one. Just like Madara was played like one.
> 
> ...


It's beyond comical to believe carrying out orders from another man due to it benefiting you can be called being "played". If that's your idea of manipulation, you'd be astonished as to see Aizen in action. But other than that, unfortunately you are sadly mistaken.


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## Clowe (Jul 1, 2015)

What is this? Obito is better that Itachi in almost every category.

Ninjutsu: Obito's Juubi sized katon > Itachi's Katon and Suiton, Not to mention CQC Mokuton
Genjutsu: Obito breaks Itachi's Genjutsu so this is a non factor in this fight.
Taijutsu: In technique i'd say their equal, but Obito is a lot stronger physically.
Tools: While I believe Itachi to be more skilled using tools, the sheer size and force of Obito's tools will overpower Itachi's.
Chakra/Stamina: Obito shits on Itachi here.
Intelligence: The only place where itachi is superior but not by much.

Obito's Kamui makes Susanoo and Amaterasu completely irrelevant.

Izanami: Madara taught Obito about the Uchiha Kinjutsu = Izanagi and Izanami, Obito is well informed regarding these, so if Itachi plans to use them Obito will notice and will counter accordingly.

Clones: If Obito actually worried about getting hit in the other dimension by people he warped he wouldn't have tried to warp anyone other than Naruto and Bee during that fight, like Guy for example. Hitting Obito in the other dimension is not that easy, Obito's body parts only remain there for miliseconds before Obito finishes passing through his opponents bodies/attacks, not to mention, any clones warped would not have any way to know where the body parts would be coming from anyway. Also if kakashi can differentiate explosive clones, so can Obito.

Sorry but there is no way in hell Itachi can win this.

Obito wins Low to Mid difficulty at most, and I'm being generous only because I don't like to say Itachi gets negged.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You yourself attributed part of the reason to Obito "avoiding" Itachi to the fact that Itachi possessed Izanami, meaning Obito knows Itachi has Izanami; meaning subtle or not Obito is not going to fall into the trap of triggering the Izanami loop process when instead he can sit back all day with his superior chakra reserves and wait out Itachi. This applies even more so ITT where Itachi is at his sickest point prior to his death.


You are aware that Itachi is the one who triggers Izanami right ? Obito has no say in it.
Obito has literally no way of knowing when or how Izanami can start. 



> Not true. Like I said, feigning to attack Itachi while remaining intangible would force the targets hand into revealing whether it's a clone or not, as a clone wouldn't attempt to avoid contract while the real Itachi would or otherwise risk being warped.


Or Itachi knows this and he doesn't avoid contact making Obito think he is a clone.
The thing is, meta game strategies are counter productive in a debate.
We can't guess what exactly the characters will do in every situation.
But the thing is, If Obito wants to kill Itachi, he has to take the risk of engaging a clone, just like he was taking major risks when he was fighting Kakashi and CO, despite knowing that they had a way around his Kamui.



> I think you're focusing too much on Itachi allowing himself to be hit and Obito not doing serious damage in the process. For instance, Obito can send a large Katon his way to skew Itachi's LoS, pop up behind him completely unaware to Itachi (since going intangible erases Obito's chakra presence) and then jab him in the back with a large shuriken, which is an all of nothing proposition seeing as Itachi either has to let it connect to start the loop or attempt to defend himself with, say, Susano'O flash activation. That's just one way Obito can approach the situation, and if he happens to make contract then he won't even need to bother continuing fighting because Itachi will already have suffered a serious wound that will lead to blood loss and further fatigue.


Again, you are meta-gaming. We can't decide for Characters actions. 

All we can agree on is that, Itachi has methods he can use to interrupt Obito's warp attempt, so getting touched by Obito is hardly game over for him. So in that sense, depending on the circumstances, he doesn't need a clone to initiate Izanami as he can do it himself.



> When you're best argument is that an Alive-Itachi is going to resort to Izanami without first testing Obito with his other abilities considering that in the actual manga-canon Itachi thought he could beat Obito with a surprise Ama which clearly shows he underestimated him


Is that why he placed Koto inside Naruto and gave him the talk about Sasuke's heart being a blank canvas and the right person can paint it the way he wants ? 
Itachi clearly anticipated Obito's chances of surviving it, his real counter measure against Obito's influence on Sasuke was Koto, not his Amaterasu trap.
You can also confirm this when Naruto tells him about Madara spoiling Sasuke about the truth behind the massacre.
Itachi wasn't surprised that Madara survived Ama.



> and quite frankly didn't know jack shit about main power (Kamui) then I can't take this seriously.


Kamui is very easily to figure out, Fuu and Torune figured it out in a matter of seconds.
Also Izanami doesn't just counter Izanagi, it counters Kamui as well, because it is really hard to land a physical attack on Obito. Izanami is legit against Obito.



> Sitting back and doing nothing is hardly something to laugh at when the alternative means death. Or would you also expect Obito to get into a fist fight with an 8th-Gated Gai?


I don't get your point here, are you admitting that Obito can't defeat Itachi ? 



> I was just pointing out that if each of their jutsu are unrestricted, Izanagi and Izanami respectively, that that means Obito is more likely to settle for a draw since he won't want to get caught in the loop. Izanagi is only unrestricted to make it even with Izanami being unrestricted.


Obito has always been pretty reckless in combat. 
And this is a BD scenario, sitting back isn't an option. 



> Initially, yes, But when it became apparent that this straight forward strategy wasn't going to work against them then he started using these other things. It was literally the failure of his ability to simply grab Naruto that led to him expanding his repertoire in the fight.


Like what really ? I don't remember him doing anything different TBH. He only brough the Kamui projectiles when he realized they were forcing him to phase through attacks and still got outplayed.



> BTW, since this is pre-War-Arc Itachi what are your thoughts now on the outcome?


If Itachi is restricted to pre war feats, then he likely loses because Obito has a shot @ outlasting him with Izanagi but I doubt that was among OP's restrictions.



> If that's the route you want to take, then you should talk about why didn't Obito take Naruto the very next day after the Kyuubi-Attack or during the Kage-Summit. Shit doesn't make sense but it doesn't entirely have to either. At the end of the day Obito wasn't concerned with Naruto's power and for good reason; he still ended up in a position to complete Mugen Tsukuyomi but lost for other reasons unrelated to power.


Because an infant is not comparable to a teenager. Its no brainer that Naruto as a child would pose no threat. 

But we know for a fact that Obito didn't go after him because Itachi told him to. So we know his reasoning for not chasing Naruto @ a certain point in the time line, post Uchiha massacre till Itachi's death.
I can't speak for his reasoning before that because we weren't told why.



> Adding Itachi to the sealing process doesn't make a difference? And again, even you will agree that Itachi playing a passive role in the Atasuki as opposed to an active one on the frontlines working against Obito was a win in itself.


Of course it doesn't. 
We have seen them complete the sealing process after Sasori, Kakuzu and Hidan were dead. 
That'd take them an extra day or so. Compare that to waiting for years... Thats a legitimate compromise.



> It wasn't postponed since they didn't have the other bijuu yet. Naruto being held captive wouldn't have changed the fact that they were still missing the Hachibi and some others.


Has it occured to you that they weren't in a rush to capture the rest of them because they couldn't go after Naruto ? Like you said, it would be meaningless if they rushed capturing them as long as they didn't have Naruto.



Kai said:


> Itachi actively recruited new Akatsuki members and participated all sealing ceremonies with the Gedo Mazo. He also gave Akatsuki intel on Naruto and Kakashi when Pain ordered him to answer Deidara.


You mean he recruited only one who'd be recruited(or killed) eitherway ?
Also the intel he gave Akatsuki on Naruto actually  gave away his true intentions. He could have described Naruto in detail but he said "he is the one who'll yell and charge @ you first."
It is vauge and worthless as information.



> Last but not least, Obito used Itachi's death by Sasuke's hands to win Sasuke over. There was no better way to get Sasuke to his side if Itachi was disposed of by anyone else but Sasuke himself.


Winning Sasuke over was beneficial, but definitely not significant enough to postpone his lifetime goal no matter how you look at it.



> You like to say this alot: It's 2015. The big picture should be clear by now



I completely agree, this isn't 2008-2009 where lots of the pieces of the puzzle were missing.

We learned that Sasuke wasn't essential in completing Obito's lifetime goal. At that point we thought he was.
We also learned that Itachi has a jutsu that hard counters Obito, at that point we didn't know Itachi possessed Izanami.

In the light of new evidence, when Obito mentioned Itachi being a thorn on his side, he literally meant it. Itachi stood in his way. It is very clear now.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> That genin level intelligence got the better of him


Not even man. Obito actually had it figured out pretty well when you consider that if he hadn't lost resolve in the plan he would have succeeded (theoretically) and when you consider that he knew Madara was trying to use him.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are aware that Itachi is the one who triggers Izanami right ? Obito has no say in it.
> Obito has literally no way of knowing when or how Izanami can start.


Perhaps I'm not making this clear, but Itachi can't start Izanami if Obito doesn't initiate the necessary physical sensations. He can literally stand there, turn intangible if he needs to, and wait Itachi out.



> But the thing is, If Obito wants to kill Itachi, he has to take the risk of engaging a clone, just like he was taking major risks when he was fighting Kakashi and CO, despite knowing that they had a way around his Kamui.


You do realize this works both ways, right? As in, if Itachi wants to win then he must engage Obito as well seeing as Obito literally holds the advantage of being the one who needs to trigger the loop, and he doesn't need to as I explained above. 



> Again, you are meta-gaming. We can't decide for Characters actions.
> 
> All we can agree on is that, Itachi has methods he can use to interrupt Obito's warp attempt, so getting touched by Obito is hardly game over for him. So in that sense, depending on the circumstances, he doesn't need a clone to initiate Izanami as he can do it himself.


You seemed perfectly fine with meta-gaming before when you assumed that the scenario would play out with Obito initiating contact and end of being rope-a-doped, but now that I present an alternate scenario you want no part of it. So please save that shit.

The truth is yeah we don't know how these guys are going to react and what strategies they're going to put forth because we're not Kishi, but if that's the case then there's pretty much no point to the strength debates we have here where there's a lot of uncertainty involved, which just happen to make for the best and most active matchups.



> Is that why he placed Koto inside Naruto and gave him the talk about Sasuke's heart being a blank canvas and the right person can paint it the way he wants ?
> Itachi clearly anticipated Obito's chances of surviving it, his real counter measure against Obito's influence on Sasuke was Koto, not his Amaterasu trap.
> You can also confirm this when Naruto tells him about Madara spoiling Sasuke about the truth behind the massacre.
> Itachi wasn't surprised that Madara survived Ama.


No offense, but what does any of this have to do with Itachi underestimating "Tobi"? 

Koto was a nice counter-measure, but Itachi wouldn't have gone through the effort of placing the transcription seal in Sasuke's eye if he didn't at least think there was a solid possibility it would work. And in this matchup where Obito is taking Sasuke's spot instead, there's no reason to believe Itachi won't fall into the mistake considering he literally did so in the manga-canon.



> Kamui is very easily to figure out, Fuu and Torune figured it out in a matter of seconds.
> Also Izanami doesn't just counter Izanagi, it counters Kamui as well, because it is really hard to land a physical attack on Obito. Izanami is legit against Obito.


I never said Izanami wasn't legit against Obito, as it's literally Itachi's only way of winning this match. It's for that reason that this will probably end in a draw or possibly even with Obito outlasting Itachi over an extremely long battle of doing nothing.



> I don't get your point here, are you admitting that Obito can't defeat Itachi ?


I've already made my point on this clear: unless Obito is positive he has figured out the real Itachi then he won't risk triggering an Izanami activation. And even then if it discerns the real Itachi he will probably take one shot at him and if that doesn't work then sit back anyway because he will already have triggered Point A of the loop. That's just common sense.



> Obito has always been pretty reckless in combat.
> *And this is a BD scenario, sitting back isn't an option.*


You realize Itachi's strategy is baiting Obito into a loop and not actively fighting, right? If Itachi actually goes all out, meaning MS techs and shit, then he losses badly, because he cannot sustain an offense against Obito and win a battle of attrition. 

Obito sitting back and doing nothing is no more of a pussy tactic, if not less so, then Itachi relying on his "lol-villain-who-doesn't accept-himself-I-Win" button. So sorry if I can't take that seriously 

And it's not only a strategy of sitting back. but also one of attrition since Itachi even not doing anything is going to fatigue and wear out before Obito who also isn't going anything, even if it might take days. So in a sense it is a legit battle strategy as a kind of man-to-man siege of sorts.



> Like what really ? I don't remember him doing anything different TBH. He only brough the Kamui projectiles when he realized they were forcing him to phase through attacks and still got outplayed.


Idk all I can say is re-read the fight if you want.



> If Itachi is restricted to pre war feats, then he likely loses because Obito has a shot @ outlasting him with Izanagi but I doubt that was among OP's restrictions.


Obito doesn't need Izanagi to outlast Itachi.



> Because an infant is not comparable to a teenager. Its no brainer that Naruto as a child would pose no threat.


This isn't consistent with him not taking Naruto at the Kage-Summit, so you're Itachi defense doesn't fly here. 



> But we know for a fact that Obito didn't go after him because Itachi told him to.


And yet he told him to go capture him back in PTI and it almost led to the death of several of Konoha's most important shinobi and Naruto losing limbs so apparently Obito wasn't that concerned with what Itachi thought. And on the flip-side there was no retaliation from Itachi again Obito for trying to spit in his face. 

Look, I know Obito didn't go after Konoha because of Itachi, but the difference is in why. You seem to suggesting that he was afraid of Itachi confronting him, when there's no reason to believe he couldn't have had Itachi dead if he wanted. The most sensible explanation is because of the possibility that Itachi would somehow relay information, not because Itachi "told him not to". 



> Of course it doesn't.
> We have seen them complete the sealing process after Sasori, Kakuzu and Hidan were dead.
> That'd take them an extra day or so. Compare that to waiting for years... Thats a legitimate compromise.


Again, them waiting years was not entirely related to Naruto. You're trying to make Itachi thee reason Mugen Tsukuyomi took so long to come to fruition when Itachi didn't have anything to do with not having the other bijuu.



> Has it occured to you that they weren't in a rush to capture the rest of them because they couldn't go after Naruto ? Like you said, it would be meaningless if they rushed capturing them as long as they didn't have Naruto.


Grimm, you are seriously fooling yourself if you believe that they couldn't have captured the rest of the bijuu, killed Itachi if they wanted, and then went after Naruto. I know you place a lot of value on Itachi's worth, but this is some overboard shit if I've ever seen it.


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## Garcher (Jul 1, 2015)

how about you guys stop rejecting canon and admit Itachi beats Obito 100%?


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Aikuro said:


> how about you guys stop rejecting canon and admit Itachi beats Obito 100%?



Stop rejecting canon indeed


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## Garcher (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Stop rejecting canon indeed



you seem to have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old



Obito manages to escape Itachi's Amaterasu because of Izanagi. Then Obito thinks to himself: "Damn if Itachi knew I had Izanagi as a backup, he would have come up with something else that kills me for sure, but luckily I managed to keep it a secret."
Then Obito just tells Sasuke his brother's plan has failed - but he doesnt mention anything else. As soon as Obito would use Izanagi even once, Itachi had the knowledge and would beat him. And forcing him to use Izanagi doesnt seems to be that difficult, as you could see in that scene Obito wasnt able to dodge with Kamui

Therefore, Itachi solos


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Aikuro said:


> you seem to have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old
> 
> 
> 
> Obito manages to escape Itachi's Amaterasu because of Izanagi.


Might want to educate yourself bruh, it's canon that Kamui allowed him to survive it.

And Obito was specifically referring to the transcription sealing killing him, not Itachi. So reading comprehension indeed


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## Reznor (Jul 1, 2015)

I think an eye audit would reveal that Obito didn't use Izanagi. 

And it's quite a leap to say that a failed trap by Itachi means Itachi could kill Obito under normal circumstances just because Obito saved a trump card. At most, that means that Itachi could kill an unaware Obito if he got another chance to rig Sasuke up as a trap for him.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

I think Obito saying he was "constantly amazed" by Itachi, and not murking Konoha until Itachi died, is more than enough reason to think Obito didn't rule out the possibility of Itachi killing him.

Itachi, in turn, told Sasuke that he believed himself to be unstoppable during life, which indicates that Itachi also thought he could wreck Obito's shit if the shit hit the fan.

Plus there's Kishimoto's movie, where Obito flees. All in all, there's a solid case for Itachi from all angles.​


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Reznor said:


> I think an eye audit would reveal that Obito didn't use Izanagi.


An eye audit isn't really necessary--the DB tells us it was Kamui.



> And it's quite a leap to say that a failed trap by Itachi means Itachi could kill Obito under normal circumstances just because Obito saved a trump card. At most, that means that Itachi could kill an unaware Obito if he got another chance to rig Sasuke up as a trap for him.


I agree. I mean, this precisely appears to be what the manga is telling us, that Itachi choose to avoid confrontation and felt safer trying to catch Obito "off-guard" through other means. Credit to Itachi though for coming up with such a plan, as it very well might have worked against any individual _other __than _Obito.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Reznor said:


> I think an eye audit would reveal that Obito didn't use Izanagi.
> 
> And it's quite a leap to say that a failed trap by Itachi means Itachi could kill Obito under normal circumstances just because Obito saved a trump card. At most, that means that Itachi could kill an unaware Obito if he got another chance to rig Sasuke up as a trap for him.



I think it is clear as day that he used Izanagi.

In the databook entry, before Obito's powers were fully explored : 



> No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception,* keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu*, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air. And here is the biggest question of all: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged.* The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone...*


It seems as if it is referring to STJ powers, but then it mentions how he decieved Hashirama @ vote and outlived him. In the most recent arc we learned that Madara survived vote with Izanagi.


Also attacks failing to connect nad keeping his body unscratched are two seperate instances.

Also Kamui can't replicate what Izanagi can do. Obito was clearly hit, Amaterasu manifested on him and must have harmed him given his continuous screams. Then he came completely unharmed, not even a scratch on his suit. Thats not the definition of Kamui, that is the definition of Izanagi.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Do you realize how sad the denial in your post seems dude.


----------



## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

It was Kamui. Obito screamed because the flames did connect on him, but he quickly reacted after the fact and disconnected from the flames using space-time ninjutsu.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Do you realize how sad the denial in your post seems dude.



Pretty ironic coming from you. But yeah, the proof is there. Refute it if you can.



Kai said:


> It was Kamui. Obito screamed because the flames did connect on him, but he quickly reacted after the fact and disconnected from the flames using space-time ninjutsu.



How can he "disconnect" the flames ? The flames grew on him and he kept screaming for a while until he went completely silent.
Also if the flames were enough to hurt him, I'm pretty sure his clothes would be burned down.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> An eye audit isn't really necessary--the DB tells us it was Kamui.
> 
> 
> I agree. I mean, this precisely appears to be what the manga is telling us, that Itachi choose to avoid confrontation and felt safer trying to catch Obito "off-guard" through other means. Credit to Itachi though for coming up with such a plan, as it very well might have worked against any individual _other __than _Obito.


That isn't what the Manga is telling you directly, that's your favorable comprehension and interpretation of what was given to you. What was specifically given to you was that Itachi placed that trap in Sasuke because he predicted an encounter between Obito and Sasuke, so as a means of keeping Obito away he placed the trap within his younger brothe. Anything else is basically your unconfirmed perspective on the subject.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pretty ironic coming from you. But yeah, the proof is there. Refute it if you can.


Holy shit man you want me to refute something the DB doesn't say 

DB/Kishimoto: It was Kamui.

Grimmjow: no it wasn't.



sanninme rikudo said:


> That isn't what the Manga is telling you directly, that's your favorable comprehension and interpretation of what was given to you. What was specifically given to you was that Itachi placed that trap in Sasuke because he predicted an encounter between Obito and Sasuke, so as a means of keeping Obito away he placed the trap within his younger brothe. Anything else is basically your unconfirmed perspective on the subject.


You know what part you left out? The part where Itachi didn't confront Obito despite feeling invincible. So using Itachi-fan logic I guess that would make Obito better than invincible


----------



## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

We've witnessed the black flames make contact with Minato and then severed after he used Hiraishin, another space-time ninjutsu.



Space-time ninjutsu > Amaterasu. Sorry bud :ignoramus


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> We've witnessed the black flames make contact with Minato and then severed after he used Hiraishin, another space-time ninjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> Space-time ninjutsu > Amaterasu. Sorry bud :ignoramus



That was not amaterasu.

Minato jumped before the flames engulfed him.

Obito was already engulfed in flames.

Sorry bro, what you said makes no sense.



StickaStick said:


> Holy shit man you want me to refute something the DB doesn't say
> 
> DB/Kishimoto: It was Kamui.


It doesn't say it was Kamui.
It refers to it as a part of "Tobi's powers." Izanagi was a part of his power.
And Obviously Kishimoto couldn't make the distinction without spoiling anything.
He didn't name the jutsu as Kamui either... try to guess why he didn't 



> Grimmjow: no it wasn't


.
It clearly wasn't.
Why would Kishimoto bring up the technique Madara used to survive Vote if it was just about Kamui ?


----------



## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why would Kishimoto bring up the technique Madara used to survive Vote if it was just about Kamui ?



Wasn't Obito still posing as Madara at that point?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Wasn't Obito still posing as Madara at that point?


So ? 
10char


----------



## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That was not amaterasu.
> 
> Minato jumped before the flames engulfed him.
> 
> ...


You can see Minato being pushed back, so contact was made. The flames made contact with Minato and didn't stay with him when Minato jumped with space-time.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It doesn't say it was Kamui.


If specifically refers to Kamui.

*In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air.*



> It refers to it as a part of "Tobi's powers." Izanagi was a part of his power.


So is Kamui, which is what the text refers to. Actually, you're wrong on two fronts because, as you said, it refers to his powers, as in more than one. Even if you look at how it's presented:

_No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air. ///*And here is the biggest question of all: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone...*_

(emphasis added.)

So why would it be asking how Madara survived if it _just told us_ what his other power was? It could be refering to Kamui and Izanagi. Furthermore, even if it were refering to only one ability it makes more sense that Kishimoto had in mind to make Kamui the reason that Madara/Tobi survived VotE, not the other way around.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

The entry was about "Tobi-Madara," who is Obito. The jutsu that kept Obito alive against Hashirama doesn't exist because the two never fought.

That's an interpretation that could work. If Obito didn't actually possess Izanagi, the entry still wouldn't have to change at all.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> If specifically refers to Kamui.
> 
> *In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air.*



Ugh no it doesn't. Like I already mentioned, attacks failing to connect = phasing. Keeping his body unscratched after an attack landing = / = phasing beccause phasing doesn't heals existing damage.



> So is Kamui, which is what the text refers to. Actually, you're wrong on two fronts because, as you said, it refers to his powers, as in more than one. Even if you look at how it's presented:
> 
> _No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air. ///*And here is the biggest question of all: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone...*_
> 
> (emphasis added.)


and ? 



> So why would it be asking how Madara survived if it _just told us_ what his other power was? It could be refering to Kamui and Izanagi. Furthermore, even if it were refering to only one ability it makes more sense that Kishimoto had in mind to make Kamui the reason that Madara survived VotE, not the other way around.


He didn't tell us what the power is.
He only highlighted the things his power has done. 

And he isn't asking us anything, he is giving a clue(he may have survived vote with this power). Kishimoto obviously knows what it is 



Kai said:


> You can see Minato being pushed back, so contact was made. The flames made contact with Minato and didn't stay with him when Minato jumped with space-time.


Then why did he carry Madara's orbs with him when he jumped ?



Rocky said:


> The entry was about "Tobi-Madara," who is Obito. The jutsu that kept Obito alive against Hashirama doesn't exist because the two never fought.
> 
> That's an interpretation that could work. If Obito didn't actually possess Izanagi, the entry still wouldn't have to change at all.



@ one point, they were one person, considering Tobi was being refered to as Madara in the databook and the manga.
So yeah, anything Madara did was done by Tobi because like you said, he was posing as Madara, in other words Kishimoto wanted us to believe he was Madara.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> It was Kamui. Obito screamed because the flames did connect on him, but he quickly reacted after the fact and disconnected from the flames using space-time ninjutsu.



It also hit the Zetsu-side of his body.

Which we saw against Torrune he can nigh-instantly replace.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ugh no it doesn't. Like I already mentioned, attacks failing to connect = phasing. Keeping his body unscratched after an attack landing = / = phasing beccause phasing doesn't heals existing damage.


It's the same ability. And Kai already told you that S-T such as Kamui and FTG allow the user to somehow remove the flames without any noticeable damage. Call it lolmagic if you want but Kishi has made that aspect of it clear. Seriously, take a hint from me from the other thread and just say you're wrong.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

I've had long debates about this in the past. There's undeniably support for both positions. The Databook points to Kamui, but Izanagi makes (far) more sense now that the manga's over and we have a full understanding of what Obito's power was.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> It's the same ability. And Kai already told you that S-T such as Kamui and FTG allow the user to somehow remove the flames without any noticeable damage.


Its not the same ability.
Just read it again :

Attacks failing to connect = phasing
Vanishing into thing air = Warping / teleporting
Keeping his body unstratched = ???? What does this have anything to do with Kamui. Please tell me.

Also what Kai said is bullshit, so I wouldn't dwell on that.



> [Call it lolmagic if you want but Kishi has made that aspect of it clear. Seriously, take a hint from me from the other thread and just say you're wrong.


Kishi didn't make anything clear, Tobi's databook entry is vague as fuck because Tobi was vague as fuck @ that point in the manga.

I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm proven wrong.



Rocky said:


> I've had long debates about this in the past. There's undeniably support for both positions. The Databook points to Kamui, but Izanagi makes (far) more sense now that the manga's over and we have a full understanding of what Obito's power was.



Exactly, and when you think about it, Databook can't give you any new information without spoiling the manga, so there was no way Kishimoto could refer to Izanagi and Kamui distinctively. He was basicaly expanding on power of Madara/Tobi, and presented it as a package because there was nothing specfic about it in the manga @ that point. 
Izanagi was revealed around chapter 470, Kamui around 600.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also what Kai said is bullshit, so I wouldn't dwell on that.


This is all I needed to see. It was Ama and it clearly made contact and Minato come out after his jump unscathed.  

You're in complete denial.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> This is all I needed to see. It was Ama and it clearly made contact and Minato come out after his jump unscathed.



It was enton, not Amaterasu. And Minato jumped split second after it came into contact with him, probably before the flames had a chance to burn him and spread.



> You're in complete denial.


No, you are  just losing the debate. It happens, no need to panic. Deep breaths. Deep breaths.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was enton, not Amaterasu.


The flames are Ama, Enton is just the manipulation of said flames.



> And Minato jumped split second after it came into contact with him, probably before the flames didn't have a chance to burn him and spread.


Once the flames make contact then they're attached to the object, even if it's small amount. Minato came out of his jump with no flames or any sign of the flames whatsoever. You're graphing with fan-fiction and conjecture now.



> No, you are  just losing the debate. It happens, no need to panic. Deep breaths. Deep breaths.


Whatever makes you feel better


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> The flames are Ama, Enton is just the manipulation of said flames.


Amaterasu is forming of the flames on your focal point. There is certainly a difference : be decapitated



> Once the flames make contact then they're attached to the object, even if it's small amount. Minato came out of his jump with no flames or any sign of the flames whatsoever. You're graphing with fan-fiction and conjecture now


.
That is actually not the case.
There is a split second window between Amaterasu appearing and starting to burn(like it is the case with fire in general). We know this because A was able to move out of Sasuke's vision before the flames could fully emerge and Naruto was able to detach the flames with his bijuu shroud before they could spread. 
With that in mind, Minato simply jumped a split second after enton made contact with him.



> Whatever makes you feel better


There are other things that'll make me feel better but for now I'll settle for this.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Amaterasu is forming of the flames on your focal point. There is certainly a difference : be decapitated


All that page did was prove my point: Sasuke used Ama and Enton Kagutsuchi in conjunction with it to manipulate the flames. They're still flames manifested through the use of Amaterasu so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.



> That is actually not the case.
> There is a split second window between Amaterasu appearing and starting to burn(like it is the case with fire in general). We know this because A was able to move out of Sasuke's vision before the flames could fully emerge and Naruto was able to detach the flames with his bijuu shroud before they could spread.
> With that in mind, Minato simply jumped a split second after enton made contact with him.


The flames never made contract in the situation you're referencing with Ei; they did with Minato.

The way Naruto did it functions differently on a fundamental level from how it would work with the relevant S-T jutsu. The two aren't even comparable. But with that said, the flames didn't even make contact with Naruto period so I don't see your point as they did make contact with Minato and Obito


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, I remember, which is odd because Obito wouldn't be able to convert himself into Kaguya would he?
> 
> Also, I suppose that's why Zetsu revealed Madara's body to Kabuto.



That makes sense of why Kabuto said Obito had no choice but to work with Kabuto.



Reznor said:


> And it's quite a leap to say that a failed trap by Itachi means Itachi could kill Obito under normal circumstances just because Obito saved a trump card. At most, that means that Itachi could kill an unaware Obito if he got another chance to rig Sasuke up as a trap for him.



Agreed. 

Tbh, it should have been made obvious. The fact Itachi needed a superior Doujutsu which only Indra incarnates could obtain to surpass "Madara" (Obito), itself shows that Itachi couldn't just take Obito.



Kai said:


> It was Kamui. Obito screamed because the flames did connect on him, but he quickly reacted after the fact and disconnected from the flames using space-time ninjutsu.



Well that's yet another reason why Itachi will lose to Tobi.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Holy shit man you want me to refute something the DB doesn't say
> 
> DB/Kishimoto: It was Kamui.
> 
> ...


Why would he waste time getting his hands dirty on Obito when he had a trap set up to handle that. Especially when he has a pacifist mindset. He prefers to end things with the least amount of trouble or bloodshed.

Now, explain to me a place in the Manga that showed Itachi's fear of Obito.


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## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why did he carry Madara's orbs with him when he jumped ?


Minato actually aimed to bring the Gudodama along with him.



sanninme rikudo said:


> Why would he waste time getting his hands dirty on Obito when he had a trap set up to handle that. Especially when he has a pacifist mindset. He prefers to end things with the least amount of trouble or bloodshed.
> 
> Now, explain to me a place in the Managa that showed Itachi's fear of Obito.


The trap was stated to be a fail-safe, a last resort. Varying translations point to similar terms. 

Itachi had no other option left. It was stated Itachi tried to keep Tobi away from Sasuke.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

A fail-safe and last resort are not equivalent terms.

In the event of Obito betraying their deal, it was a "fail-safe."

And Koto was another "fail-safe" for the "fail-safe."

Made all the more impressive because Itachi didn't know Obito knew.

And had no real reason (in Obito's mind) to distrust Obito's word.


----------



## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

Look at the context of all three of each translations and tell me what you see is said about Itachi's final maneuver. Courtesy of the mangahelpers translators.



			
				tora-chan said:
			
		

> イタチの最後っ屁ってやつだな…
> オレには通用しなかったが…
> Tobi-Madara: In other words, it was his last effort... (note: he's actually using a pun here.. XD He literally says "a skunk's last fart": it's a saying originating from the fact that skunks, when cornered, emit particularly smelly gas. *It's used when referring to a person's last struggle [before dying or being captured or whatever]*. The name "itachi" means "weasel", but it may commonly refer to any member of the weasel family, skunks included XD ; ndt)
> 
> *Though it didn't work on me...*





			
				cnet said:
			
		

> Tobi: (But thankfully, even Itachi did not know everything there is to know about me... // ...Otherwise, I would have died.) // *This is Itachi's last little trick... / ...though I'm afraid it won't work against me...*




And of course, Hissho's translation is the one commonly used on the scans we cite.


			
				HisshouBuraiKen said:
			
		

> Tobi:Fortunately, I managed to keep a few secrets even from him...
> if I hadn't, I'd be dead right now.
> 
> *It's what you'd call a fail-safe...
> Although he only got as far as the "fail" part.*



So I'm confident by these translations that Itachi's transcription seal had nothing to do with convenience as a pacifist but as an act of desperation to provide separation between Tobi and Sasuke. No more manipulating context now.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

Hardly desperation.

It was only "ultra-caution" that he even suspected betrayal.

It was merely countering the _possibility_, twice (Ama, Koto.)


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> Minato actually aimed to bring the Gudodama along with him.
> 
> 
> The trap was stated to be a fail-safe, a last resort. Varying translations point to similar terms.
> ...


in no way do those terms mean the same thing at all. A fail-safe is there as a means of preventing something from happening. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a last resort. 

I'm sure Itachi can think of something far better than using Amaterasu to catch him off guard. But with Sasuke's arrival coming closer that was a rather proficient method to use especially when considering the type of mindset Itachi has.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2015)

When the Itachi arguments now involve distorting the context of the manga, namely why Obito kept Itachi alive and purposely misinterpreting the fail-safe comment: it becomes pretty clear Obito rapestomps Itachi.

Simply because the context distortion and the blatant disregard for manga facts highlight the desperation from the Itachi side.

The only new thing to this debate, to this subform, is what Kai noted: Kamui renders Amaterasu useless. With Sharingan prediction, Kamui renders Susanoo useless (and that's really the only other attack Itachi has which could hope to save him).
Tsukuyomi will fail against an MS user; more so against an MS user with Senju cells... especially when those cells have Asura's chakra.

Itachi is just outmatched.


----------



## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> in no way do those terms mean the same thing at all. A fail-safe is there as a means of preventing something from happening. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a last resort.
> 
> I'm sure Itachi can think of something far better than using Amaterasu to catch him off guard. But with Sasuke's arrival coming closer that was a rather proficient method to use especially when considering the type of mindset Itachi has.


Except fail-safe and last resort can be used interchangeably given the context in which Itachi wants to prevent Tobi from reaching Sasuke before Itachi died.

Tensha Fuin: Amaterasu was a fail-safe in case Itachi couldn't stop Tobi's advancements through conventional means, and it was also his last resort as he had no other options left given his time.

I didn't think the debate would shift to a more trivial level such as this. You're still wrong on this front


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

On the contrary, Munboy.

Kishimoto's movie specifically implies Itachi can counter Kamui.

[youtube]IEKiAonlYXc[/YouTube]

And that Obito's a little bitch.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> Minato actually aimed to bring the Gudodama along with him.



What about this ? 
Link removed
Link removed

Did he aim to bring the Bijuudama with him ? 
The scan shows otherwise.



StickaStick said:


> All that page did was prove my point: Sasuke used Ama and Enton Kagutsuchi in conjunction with it to manipulate the flames. They're still flames manifested through the use of Amaterasu so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.


It is important to note the difference because Amaterasu had always spread and burnt faster than Enton.



> The flames never made contract in the situation you're referencing with Ei; they did with Minato.


They had to emerge on A, because Sasuke focused his vision on A. A simply moved out of the way before they could start doing any damage.



> The way Naruto did it functions differently on a fundamental level from how it would work with the relevant S-T jutsu. The two aren't even comparable. But with that said, the flames didn't even make contact with Naruto period so I don't see your point as they did make contact with Minato and Obito


I know they are fundementally different, that isn't my point.
My point is, the flames won't start burning instantly, and in the scan you posted it isn't very clear whether Naruto had the bijuu chakra on initially, but I doubt he had it. The "!!" mark indicate surprise, which means he activated the shroud after he got hit.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> On the contrary, Munboy.
> 
> Kishimoto's movie specifically implies Amaterasu counters Kamui.
> 
> [youtube]IEKiAonlYXc[/youtube]



Distorting context yet again. Did you choose to forget Tobi just waited for Naruto to be weakened in that movie?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm not distorting anything.

Itachi was ready to fight. And said he could beat Kamui.

Obito bailed so fast Itachi didn't even have time to activate his MS.

Kishimoto wrote this. Relevant.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2015)

@munboy 
outside exhausting itachi how would obito actually touch itachi in susanoo

he has to phase through itachi susanoo then opt to become tangible right before he gets to itachi. but if itachi changes the form of his susanoo wont that counter obito manoeuvre 

do you get what I mean though


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hardly desperation.
> 
> It was only "ultra-caution" that he even suspected betrayal.
> 
> It was merely countering the _possibility_, twice (Ama, Koto.)


Who said anything about desperation? Itachi thought it would work and was wrong. Pretty clear that he was comfortable in his position (hence him only reaching the "fail" part). 

Also, you might want to ask someone who can explain to you why CEOs and those that run their company stay at the top, usually hidden from the public eye, and typically don't mingle with the common rabble at the bottom of the organization, because you're calling Obito a little bitch who hid from his organization just oozes of ignorance and that's not a good look 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is important to note the difference because Amaterasu had always spread and burnt faster than Enton.


Enton doesn't change the fact that when the flames come into contract with something they'll attach to it. How quickly they spread afterwards (after attaching) is a different matter. Otherwise, you're literally saying that once the flames make contact an object if pulled away fast enough can avoid catching them and that makes no sense whatsoever.



> They had to emerge on A, because Sasuke focused his vision on A. A simply moved out of the way before they could start doing any damage.


Why are you repeating yourself as if as if that makes the what you're saying anymore true. Again, your comparison is invalid.

Ei = *was not* hit by the flames; he moved outside of the targeted point. 

Minato = *was *hit by the flames.




> I know they are fundementally different, that isn't my point.
> My point is, the flames won't start burning instantly, and in the scan you posted it isn't very clear whether Naruto had the bijuu chakra on initially, but I doubt he had it. The "!!" mark indicate surprise, which means he activated the shroud after he got hit.


It's clear when you consider that Naruto's whole body was covered in Kyuubi chakra, otherwise he would have only use it on his arm/area it hit to "push" it off. The explanation points indicate that he was surprised that the cloak would shield it from him.

And so what if the flames don't spread instantly? _They're still there_. Which means they should have been present on Minato as well as he made contact with with them even if in a small amount.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

Obito is not a CEO. And even CEOs lead their executives.

Obito is the "Kage" of Akatsuki. The leader of elite warriors.

Warrior leaders (Kage) don't normally hide in shadows.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Enton doesn't change the fact that when the flames come into contract with something they'll attach to it. How quickly they spread afterwards (after attaching) is a different matter.



Amaterasu has been more potent when it comes to burning in its initial formation compared to enton.



> Otherwise, you're literally saying that once the flames make contact an object if pulled away fast enough can avoid catching them and that makes no sense whatsoever.


Why doesn't it make sense ?
Wanna try an experiment ?

Light a fire, presumably in a well contained area(so you don't accidentally burn down your house). Put your hand through the fire and pull really fast. And then put your hand through the fire and don't pull for a good couple of seconds, and tell me if you observe any difference.

I'll appreciate if you can record this and upload it to youtube or something.



> Why are you repeating yourself as if as if that makes the what you're saying anymore true. Again, your comparison is invalid.


But I have to repeat because you'r not getting it 



> Ei = *was not* hit by the flames; he moved outside of the targeted point.


Ok then tell me, what did Amaterasu form on, if not A ? 



> Minato = *was *hit by the flames.


*Only for a split second,* not enough time for the flames to attach to his clothes or do any damage.

Contrary to Obito's case, where he got lit up, got covered in flames and screamed in pain for a while.
You have to explain to me how he remained undamaged by something that made him scream in pain ? 



> It's clear when you consider that Naruto's whole body was covered in Kyuubi chakra, otherwise he would have only use it on his arm/area it hit to "push" it off. The explanation points indicate that he was surprised that the cloak would shield it from him.


Wait what ? There is no cloak around his whole body or anything when he first gets hit by Amateasu.



> And so what if the flames don't spread instantly? _They're still there_. Which means they should have been present on Minato as well as he made contact with with them even if in a small amount.


Read above, split second contact isn't enough for Amaterasu to attach and burn the target.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

@Strat. Obito was the AL and dealt with who he needed to; i.e., Nagato, Konan, and Zetsu. Obito ultimately decided what teams would be formed and which jins to go after. And he is one that decided how to carry out Mugen Tsukuyomi under the given circumstances.

And I don't know what books you pretend to read, but no, CEOs don't typically lead their lower-chain employees, of which Itachi was one, directly. They put people into place (e.g., managers, superiors) to do that. Based on Zetsu's interaction with different cells that was probably his responsibility. And yes most CEOs (at least in this culture) prefer to keep out of the public eye so they can, you know, do their job and not have to deal with arm-chair scrutiny. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Amaterasu has been more potent when it comes to burning in its initial formation compared to enton.


Proof?



> Why doesn't it make sense ?
> Wanna try an experiment ?
> 
> Light a fire, presumably in a well contained area(so you don't accidentally burn down your house). Put your hand through the fire and pull really fast. And then put your hand through the fire and don't pull for a good couple of seconds, and tell me if you observe any difference.
> ...


Comparing pulling your hand in and out of basic fire quickly to being slammed in the chest on clothing with an Ama-augmented Rasengan 

Tell you what Grimm, you replicate _that _experiment and post the video and I'll gladly believe you.



> Ok then tell me, what did Amaterasu form on, if not A ?


Are you serious? The whole point of that particular illustration was to highlight Ei's speed by showing that he could evade it at the last instant; hence there being an outline of where he previously was. So he was never hit by it. If he was, then when he moved to the side the flames would have traveled with him, not continue to travel forward.

I mean we can see it continue to travel and hit the fodder behind him 




> *Only for a split second,* not enough time for the flames to attach to his clothes or do any damage.


A second is all that's needed.



> Contrary to Obito's case, where he got lit up, got covered in flames and screamed in pain for a while.
> You have to explain to me how he remained undamaged by something that made him scream in pain ?


This isn't hard to understand. Obito doesn't remove the flames immediately (neither did Minato, they were still there for the brief instant before he jumped) so of course he was in pain/shock before he would have removed them. 

You're putting too much stock into Kishi's portrayal of how Obito reacted to the flames, when it was probably for dramatic effect and we've seen similar cases of the damage Ama does being erratic, see Karin. So seriously do yourself a favor and quite latching so hard onto that. 



> Wait what ? There is no cloak around his whole body or anything when he first gets hit by Amateasu.


Do you not see the faint outline around Naruto's body?



And again, this makes sense when you consider that on the next page we see Naruto's entire body covered in the cloak. Or did Naruto just decide to surround his entire self in the cloak when the flames were only on his arm for shits and giggles?



> Read above, split second contact isn't enough for Amaterasu to attach and burn the target.


See above.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> And I don't know what books you pretend to read



I pretend to read all books.



StickaStick said:


> but no, CEOs don't typically lead their lower-chain employees



That's not what I said. Try rereading.


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## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

Please don't turn this into what the Nagato vs. Minato thread eventually became.

Prove Obito and Itachi's fanbases are better than that


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

No, let it burn.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Calm down there Strat, no need to get all sensitive 

Anyhow, your post:


Strategoob said:


> Obito is not a CEO. And even CEOs lead their executives.


Wrong; Obito led his executives (Nagato, Konan, Zetsu). And Obito's job was more similar to a CEO than an active warrior out of the battlefront. Why you would even make this comparison is beyond me.



> Obito is the "Kage" of Akatsuki. The leader of elite warriors.


Wrong again; here is where you're insinuating that Obito should be leading his lower-chain employees (or are Nagato, Konan, and Zetsu the only "elite" warriors in the Ataksuki?) and, frankly, skewing Obito's role in the Akatsuki.



> Warrior leaders (Kage) don't normally hide in shadows.


Bad interpretation. See above.


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> Please don't turn this into what the Nagato vs. Minato thread eventually became.
> 
> Prove Obito and Itachi's fanbases are better than that



What does that mean Kai?


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

It means nobody bring up blow-up dolls


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @munboy
> outside exhausting itachi how would obito actually touch itachi in susanoo



Literally walk to him while Kamui is active.  Stage 4, Susanoo.



> he has to phase through itachi susanoo then opt to become tangible right before he gets to itachi. but if itachi changes the form of his susanoo wont that counter obito manoeuvre



The ones like rip cage? Just use some offensive jutsu then eventually grab Itachi.

It'll just be different ways to use Kamui.




Strategoob said:


> Itachi was ready to fight. And said he could beat Kamui.



When?



> Obito bailed so fast Itachi didn't even have time to activate his MS.



When?



> I'm not distorting anything.
> 
> Kishimoto wrote this. Relevant.



Kishimoto wrote this; you're distorting the context of his writing.


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## Sans (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> Please don't turn this into what the Nagato vs. Minato thread eventually became.
> 
> Prove Obito and Itachi's fanbases are better than that



No, bring it all down.


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## Sans (Jul 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No, let it burn.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 2, 2015)

There's clearly a reason why Obito said Konoha isn't off limits anymore while Itachi was dead. On top of that, Itachi wasn't truly for the Akatsuki motives, as he left tasks incomplete. Why wouldn't Obito dispose of him if Itachi wasn't properly carrying out orders. You also have the fact that Itachi was in the Organization to keep a close eye on it. Any "CEO" would get rid of someone like that. However, Obito couldn't so he let Itachi do what he wanted and only took serious action until after he died.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Proof?


Here : * he gets snapped out of it by the hachibi almost immediately after*
* he gets snapped out of it by the hachibi almost immediately after*
Check out @ the pace it burns Karin

And now compare it to this : 
* he gets snapped out of it by the hachibi almost immediately after*
* he gets snapped out of it by the hachibi almost immediately after*

Unless  you think Karin's clothes were more durable than a CS powered Katon or Sasuke's CS2 wing(which were eaten away an a second), then there is a clear difference @ the speed it can engulf and burn. 
Left over flames or enton never burned as fast as Amaterasu.



> Comparing pulling your hand in and out of basic fire quickly to being slammed in the chest on clothing with an Ama-augmented Rasengan
> 
> Tell you what Grimm, you replicate _that _experiment and post the video and I'll gladly believe you.


I am just comparing being exposed to fire for a split second, to being exposed longer.

But concession accepted.



> Are you serious? The whole point of that particular illustration was to highlight Ei's speed by showing that he could evade it at the last instant; hence there being an outline of where he previously was. So he was never hit by it. If he was, then when he moved to the side the flames would have traveled with him, not continue to travel forward.
> 
> I mean we can see it continue to travel and hit the fodder behind him


* he gets snapped out of it by the hachibi almost immediately after*
He moves right after the flames start to form on him.
So like I said, he was able to move out before he was properly exposed, so Amaterasu didn't lit him on fire and the flames continued towards the fodder because he left an after image, and when the after image dissapeared the fodder came in Sasuke's vision.



> A second is all that's needed.


Manga proves otherwise.



> This isn't hard to understand. Obito doesn't remove the flames immediately (neither did Minato, they were still there for the brief instant before he jumped) so of course he was in pain/shock before he would have removed them.


I'll explain it for the last time.
Minato jumped the instant the jutsu made contact with him, before the fire could start burning him.
Obito on the other hand was lit up, and engulfed, and screamed in pain for a while.

From this point on, I'll start to question your IQ if you still think what happened to Minato and Obito was exactly the same thing.



> You're putting too much stock into Kishi's portrayal of how Obito reacted to the flames, when it was probably for dramatic effect and we've seen similar cases of the damage Ama does being erratic, see Karin. So seriously do yourself a favor and quite latching so hard onto that.


I think you are putting too much effort into ignoring Kishimoto's portrayal of how Obito reacted to it, for the sake of justifying your unsubstantiated argument. Which we don't do in battledome.
Manga > your opinion.

I already explained Karin.
And even then, Karin's clothes were burned, albeit @ a slower pace. Obito on the other hand, came out without a scratch, despite being exposed to Amaterasu longer than Karin was.



> Do you not see the faint outline around Naruto's body?


No, there is nothing around him.



> And again, this makes sense when you consider that on the next page we see Naruto's entire body covered in the cloak. Or did Naruto just decide to surround his entire self in the cloak when the flames were only on his arm for shits and giggles?


It is irrelevant whether the shroud covered his arm or his whole body.
We are debating whether he activated the shroud before or after Amaterasu hit him.



> See above.


Nah, you see above


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## StickaStick (Jul 2, 2015)

Going to eliminate some of the petty back-and-forth. Not trying to dodge any points (if you feel so bring it up) but just the ones where we're basically just telling the other we're wrong. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Here : 2
> 2
> Check out @ the pace it burns Karin
> 
> ...


Uh, Sasuke didn't use Enton in the Karin example you're providing 

This is extremely silly to begin with because Enton is literally just the manipulation of the flames manifested through Ama. And there is literally no where in the manga nor databook that states that Enton makes the flames spread slower or with a lesser effect. All you've done here is further prove my point that the spreading and damage that Ama does is erratic, because that's what Kishi does with this jutsu.



> I am just comparing being exposed to fire for a split second, to being exposed longer.
> 
> But concession accepted.


Take a physics class or something dude, because this is either straight up trolling or ignorance.

Pulling hand (skin and flesh) inside and outside of fire quickly =/= being slammed in the chest on clothing with a ball of chakra spinning at a high velocity augmented with Amaterasu.



> 2
> He moves right after the flames start to form on him.
> *So like I said, he was able to move out before he was properly exposed, so Amaterasu didn't lit him on fire *and the flames continued towards the fodder because he left an after image, and when the after image dissapeared the fodder came in Sasuke's vision.


You basically just repeated what I said with the point being that the flames _never _touched him. So you're pretty much arguing nothing here that supports your position because they did make full-blown contact with Minato.



> I already explained Karin.
> And even then, Karin's clothes were burned, albeit @ a slower pace. Obito on the other hand, came out without a scratch, despite being exposed to Amaterasu longer than Karin was.


So what you're saying is that Ama burns and spreads inconsistently and that Kishi really doesn't give a darn 

I'm not trying to be an a-hole but really think about this. Here I'll take something you wrote:

*Attacks failing to connect = phasing
Vanishing into thing air = Warping / teleporting
Keeping his body unstratched = ???? What does this have anything to do with Kamui. Please tell me.*

So basically, these several parts on this one sentence referring to one ability _ALL _describe Kamui except for arguably the final part. So that means it's Kamui, and any fixation on the "keeping his body unscratched part" is just that, clinging onto something that's not really important. As I said previously, Kishi obviously wanted to add some kind of dramatic effect by having Obito scream in pain making us readers thinks "oh shit this guy is fucked" and then surprised in wonderment when he comes out _without a mark on him_. If you want to call it a retcon then fine we can say that if were to happen in the manga today (if there was one) than instead of coming out clean parts of his clothes may been burned off or at the very least some scratches/marks would be present. 

Because if that's what you're looking for I honestly think you're thinking too hard about this and not keeping on eye on the big picture which is that Kamui checks two of the boxes no questions asked and some fudging is possibly needed to check the last one. Doesn't make it not Kamui (because it still checks two of the three boxes), just means Kishi's portrayal was slightly differently back then as opposed to what it would be today because back then he was going for a dramatic effect.



> It is irrelevant whether the shroud covered his arm or his whole body.
> We are debating whether he activated the shroud before or after Amaterasu hit him.


That's the point: if he had activated his shroud first then it would make sense that his entire body was covered in it because he was healing himself or something. However, if Sasuke's Ama had landed on his arm _first _and Naruto _then _activated the shroud in response to it then the shroud would _only _need to cover his arm in order to remove it. I'm not even sure how it would work frankly if he was hit first with Ama and then used the shroud because doesn't the shroud *form/manifest *around him, not emanate from his skin like a second skin of sorts? So yeah.


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## Reznor (Jul 2, 2015)

> Warrior leaders (Kage) don't normally hide in shadows.



The word "kage" literally means 'shadow'.


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## Bloo (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How is itachi going to touch Obito twice in order to use Izanami?


You don't have to be touching to use Izanami... 

I know you hate Itachi, but at least do a better job at it.


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## Sans (Jul 2, 2015)

Bloo said:


> You don't have to be touching to use Izanami...
> 
> I know you hate Itachi, but at least do a better job at it.



uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## StickaStick (Jul 2, 2015)

Bloo said:


> You don't have to be touching to use Izanami...
> 
> I know you hate Itachi, but at least do a better job at it.


He probably meant create the necessary physical sensation twice which could be referred to loosely as _"touching"_ as that's kind of what Itachi's does in snap-shoting the loop.


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