# Totsuka can seal Kaguya (actually it can't but read OP)



## Stonaem (Nov 28, 2019)

The main arguement here is NLF. NLF only works when qe are able to establish a (likely) limit. 

Kaguya being the most powerful doesn't automatically grant immunity to certain things due to "she's  powerful" alone. 

There has to be a particular mechanism. 

Now based on Red Nagato vs Totsuka, sealing items don't  seem to care much about levels. 

Based on Iruka vs KCM Naruto, actually they do, but their threshold is really really high. (Iruka level seals can force Naruto to use KCM to break them, imagine ancient level seals, imagine ancient level items) 

So how high? We don't  know coz we aren't given numbers. Based on implied numbers and mechanics I'd rather not go into, Kaguya is the very border of what can and cant overpower Totsuka sealing power. 

But there's other factors besides numbers: mechanics

Totsuka works in one of two ways - it either transports to a dimension of illusions or creates this illusion itself using seals (don't ask). 
If it creates this illusion, maybe Kaguya could absorb it. Based on Nagato having been there and Kisamehada vs Kurenai, theres a chance illusionary chakra can't  be absorbed. Being the originator of earthly chakra (and therefore chakra effects) means she could be able to comprehend and undo the illusion, but she couldn't  undo the seal of Hagy so maybe not. 
If it transports to another dimension, then Kaguya is a dimension hopper so she trolls it. 

That still needs her to at least recognise the illusion, since the thing is clearly meant to keep opponents asleep (else Orochimaru, Nagato and whoever else could be in there would just band together to overpower it). 

So it cometh down to the things she can do, not simply her being "Kaguya" GG


----------



## Topace (Nov 28, 2019)

Totsuka isn’t even piercing her in the first place. She’d probably grab the sword and backhand Itachi with it.


----------



## J★J♥ (Nov 28, 2019)

From what i seen totsuka transcends reality of Narutoverse and seals braincells from ours as well.


----------



## Djomla (Nov 28, 2019)

She would grab it, pick up Susanoo alongside it and smack Itachi like a whack a mole.


----------



## Cognitios (Nov 28, 2019)

Itachi jumps not in Susanoo jams Yata Mirror into kaguya then puts totsuka in the open wound. Gg


----------



## MShadows (Nov 28, 2019)



Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Hina uzumaki (Nov 28, 2019)

Topace said:


> Totsuka isn’t even piercing her in the first place. She’d probably grab the sword and backhand Itachi with it.


Kakashi's raikiri slashed her arm but totsuka won't?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## t0xeus (Nov 28, 2019)

>Base Sakura's punch damaged Kaguya
>but Totsuka is never ever piercing Kaguya


----------



## Topace (Nov 28, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Kakashi's raikiri slashed her arm but totsuka won't?


Wasn’t that God tier Kakashi? Wouldn’t that Kakashi straight up cleave Itachi susanno and him and him in half with it?


----------



## Hina uzumaki (Nov 28, 2019)

Topace said:


> Wasn’t that God tier Kakashi? Wouldn’t that Kakashi straight up cleave Itachi susanno and him and him in half with it?


Isn't  totsuka blade a god tier sealing weapon? And no, Itachi's yata mirror WILL neg DMS kakashi's six paths raikiri


----------



## Draco Bolton (Nov 28, 2019)

Lmao Totsuka fail to seal random snake



Who believes Kaguya will be sealed by that ?


----------



## Arles Celes (Nov 28, 2019)

A regular sword can kill even top tiers provided they do not have powerful regenerating powers as EMS Madara's death had shown (hell...Hashi was implied to be killable via kunai).

Can Totsuka seal Kaguya? Depends how said sealing works. If it puts the person asleep forever rather than try to contain a persons power then...maybe? Otherwise it would be like Gaara sealing Urashiki. It would work but Kaguya would overpower the seal in no more than a day.

That is assuming Totsuka lands on her and Itachi isnt killed beforehand.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## MaruUchiha (Nov 28, 2019)

Topace said:


> Totsuka isn’t even piercing her in the first place. She’d probably grab the sword and backhand Itachi with it.





Djomla said:


> She would grab it, pick up Susanoo alongside it and smack Itachi like a whack a mole.


Based on what is she intercepting a blade fast enough to pierce before the target can even mentally perceive that it happened?


Draco Bolton said:


> Lmao Totsuka fail to seal random snake


I highly doubt Kishi intended for that panel to be perceived that way, it seemed more for dramatic/artistic effect


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> >Base Sakura's punch damaged Kaguya
> >but Totsuka is never ever piercing Kaguya


Im sorry but whats your argument here?

Even ignoring the fact Kaguya being damaged by Sakura is a massive outlier, this argument makes no sense.

Sakuras CES, even "in Base" has better DC feats than an MS users Susanoo...By like a lot...

Susanoos thing has never been its offensive power, its defensive power has always FAR outclassed what it can dish out. Until PS, that gap is ocean fucking wide in fact. And even with PS, theres still a gap.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## t0xeus (Nov 28, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im sorry but whats your argument here?
> 
> Even ignoring the fact Kaguya being damaged by Sakura is a massive outlier, this argument makes no sense.
> 
> ...


if Base Sakura, whose punch did exactly this to White Zetsu:

(bad quality sorry, but it basically did no visible damage at all),

actually managed to punch Kaguya's horn off...

then anything is possible is my argument basically

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Siskebabas (Nov 28, 2019)

Sword aint sealing shit under any circumstances, kaguya was beyond anything normal thus needed unormal mean to seal her aka rikudo seal


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> if Base Sakura, whose punch did exactly this to White Zetsu:


Well thats dishonest af

Thats a much weaker Sakura before she stopped funneling her chakra to Byalugo to fill it to capacity

Base Sakuras ACTUAL best feat is the following

*Link Removed*

And no Susanoo that isnt PS tier or Rikudo amped is replicating that


t0xeus said:


> actually managed to punch Kaguya's horn off...
> 
> then anything is possible is my argument basically


Its an outlier that exists in the most PIS stricken fight in the series hands down

And as I said youre also MADLY underestimating Sakuras power even ignoring that

"Sakura did it so anyone can" is dumb logic as Sakuras DC is unironically top tier among Kage level characters, she hits obscenely harder than itachi


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Nov 28, 2019)

@Naemlis Orez 
The burden of proof is always on the person who asserts a claim.  You haven't actually proven that Kaguya can escape the sealing of totsuka or escape the jar once sealed, yet in your OP you say that she can....


First of all, as you stated, Totsuka's ability to seal isn't power based.

 This much is obvious when you compare Totsuka Blade's showings to that of the Death Reaper Seal. In both instances that the Death Reaper Seal is used, we see direct evidence that there is a large power struggle component that goes into the sealing. We are shown and told that Old Hiruzen (especially with a sword in his chest)  lacked the strength/stamina necessary to fully pull out Orochimaru's soul, who was actively resisting. We are shown and told that even with Kushina's help, Minato struggled to take in half of the Kyuubi's chakra for the Seal (calling the chakra incredibly heavy). So there is clearly a skill component but also a large power component , which makes sense because the RDS is still a ninjutsu that is limited by the power of the caster.

With totsuka (arguably an ancient relic) , we saw the opposite. Itachi was literally walking on his last legs down into the grave with a body weakened through exhaustion from the fight with Sasuke, weakened by injuries, his terminal illness, as well as the strain of V4 Susano'o , sealing away Orochimaru, who literally was in his strongest form to date, outputting so much chakra through his hydra that even a non sensor like Itachi could sense its presence just by the "feel" of Oro's chakra despite being blind in both eyes. Unless you are gonna make the argument that Dying sick Itachi has more chakra than Orochimaru or is significantly stronger than Old Hiruzen, then Totsuka's sealing mechanic is independent of chakra/strength levels, as there was no sign or even a hint of a struggle to seal Oro away, when the gap between their strength couldn't have been greater at the time. This is further supported when Totsuka sealed away Nagato who was jacked up on a V2 cloak's worth of Gyuki's chakra. Edo Tensei still maintain their alive chakra reserves and this can be increased by getting chakra from another source, and that was apparent given that Nagato's chakra reserves went up and made him youthful again. The gap between Edo Nagato and Edo Itachi in power/stamina/chakra volume is massive, yet the blade immediately severed Kabuto's connection to Nagato and Itachi said that Nagato would be sealed away, without any shiver of a doubt, and that's exactly what happened.

There is no reason to assume that Totsuka would be unable to seal Kaguya ( as the NLF counterargument has no basis in this case given that the only relevant difference between Kaguya and Nagato/Orochimaru is just chakra volume, which is already established to not make a difference in Totsuka's ability to seal a victim) on the basis of power difference. You have no evidence that once she is sealed away that chakra volume would make a difference as we also know that the genjutsu world Totsuka places you in must also be independent of Itachi's power and skill. She may have powerful chakra reserves and antigenjutsu abilities thanks to her rinnegansharingan, but at the end of the day she isn't immune to genjutsu and you would have to prove that she is strong enough to resist the genjutsu of the gourd (which has an unknown strength) and even if she could teleport out of the gourd, you would have to prove that she is able to activate ninjutsu under such conditions when we saw Totsuka cut off Kabuto's control over Nagato, which means the blade has the ability to disrupt ninjutsu. And we have seen in other cases if a genjutsu is strong enough you won't be able to activate any kind of ninjutsu period while under its effects. 


And after Itachi's death, Totsuka never would have been a part of the discussion for whether it can seal Kaguya or not, because firstly there is no proof that Hagoromo even knows Totsuka exists, Naruto and sasuke certainly didn't know about its capabilities in detail  either, and  Black Zetsu had no reason to tell them that.


----------



## MaruUchiha (Nov 28, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> @Naemlis Orez
> The burden of proof is always on the person who asserts a claim.  You haven't actually proven that Kaguya can escape the sealing of totsuka or escape the jar once sealed, yet in your OP you say that she can....
> 
> 
> ...


Someone actually speaking logical about Totsuka Blade and it's portrayal, mechanics, limits, etc. This is gonna trigger some users


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 28, 2019)

> People in here suggesting theres no proof Kaguya cant be sealed by Totsuka

Guess they missed the part where Hagoromo and Hamura needed the Yin Yang seals to beat her

*Link Removed**Link Removed*

*Link Removed**Link Removed*, *Link Removed*

*Link Removed*

On no less than 3 occasions, RSM users, who possess an inherent understanding of EVERYTHING chakra, state and agree that Kaguya > Anything that isnt Rikudo CT

There is no argument to be had here

This is asinine


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Nov 28, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> > People in here suggesting theres no proof Kaguya cant be sealed by Totsuka
> 
> Guess they missed the part where Hagoromo and Hamura needed the Yin Yang seals to beat her
> 
> ...



1) lol already countered this. Sasuke literally never saw Totsuka blade ever nor does he know about it. Only orochimaru did and when Sasuke regained his bearings Itachi was no longer using it actively. Naruto saw the blade in action once when it sealed Nagato but he knows nothing of the lore behind the blade or what it's "limits" are. So Naruto's and Sasuke's statements are invalid, the characters are not sufficiently informed on the blade.

2) Black Zetsu saying that the ying and yang seals are the strongest doesn't help your argument. Even if Totsuka is second place, we know that there already exists a seal capable of sealing Kaguya *even though the seal was created and implemented by a being weaker than herself.* So you just shot another bullet in the foot of the power based NLF counterargument. It could be yin/yang seal > Totsuka> Kaguya, so neither you or the OP has justified their assertion/met burden of proof.

3) Secondly, you are taking several of those statements out of context to begin with. Zetsu and Kaguya are often saying that Naruto on his own can't seal her away, so remind me of what that has to do with Totsuka, when Naruto does not and has not ever possessed Totsuka Blade???? And Totsuka Blade went with Itachi  to the grave, so it practically doesn't exist as an option to begin with short of Sasuke reviving him somehow. Furthermore, why would Black Zetsu and Kaguya  even tell them that Totsuka was an option lolol. That would be stupid. The less options your opponent thinks they have available to beat you, the better.   Not once was Totsuka Blade  explicitly stated to be unable to seal Kaguya.


----------



## Stonaem (Nov 29, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> @Naemlis Orez
> The burden of proof is always on the person who asserts a claim.  You haven't actually proven that Kaguya can escape the sealing of totsuka or escape the jar once sealed, yet in your OP you say that she can....
> 
> 
> ...


You're underrated

Victims are trapped in an illusion (also look at their faces) so they don't recognise what is/has happened and don't  fight back. Hence there's no known power struggle. Its like someone in genjutsu getting their hand cut off without trying to dodge. It doesn't mean the blade is undodgeable, just that they didn't  try for a specific reason. 

How can this illusion get Nagato and Kaguya? 
Seals tend to target the spirit. No one trains the spirit. Kaguya and Nagato are chakra monsters, hardly spirit monsters. Probably a Yamanaka could resist. 

This also explains why the ET link was broken immediately. ET binds spirits, so what Totsuka did is capture said spirit in an illusion and seal it away within itself. 

It also explains why Oro could divide up and try to escape as a small snake: he separates his spirit into multiple parts for a living. 

So what i meant is that Totsuka doesn't use a strong sealing power, but rather uses an illusion to prevent a power struggle. All techniques are based on power. 

I agree with anything else you said but i think Totsuka was created either by Indra  or the Uchiha ancestors based on the genjutsu common factor. So the power of its illusion can also be guesstimated. I wager its either just enough or a tad short of Kaguya, but its conjecture.


----------



## blk (Nov 29, 2019)

I think this falls on the "doesn't make sense from a plot perspective" argument.

The general power levels of Rikudo beings are so much higher than anyone else, that it is seems extremely unlikely Kishi would ever consider the notion of Totsuka beating Kaguya.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 5, 2019)

blk said:


> I think this falls on the "doesn't make sense from a plot perspective" argument.
> 
> The general power levels of Rikudo beings are so much higher than anyone else, that it is seems extremely unlikely Kishi would ever consider the notion of Totsuka beating Kaguya.



I disagree with this assessment , because you would first have to prove that Totsuka's sealing mechanism takes into account power levels, which is unlikely based on the evidence I presented in my earlier post. And we have no idea who made Totsuka or why it was so famous that Orochimaru and "others" according to Black Zetsu were searching for it , for all we know its an artifact left behind by a Rikudō tier being. It seems to have a connection to Susano'o,  but that could just be Itachi manifesting it through Susano'o, and clearly it functioned on par with what Black Zetsu knew about it from the lore so..... So I feel you are assuming a lot with little evidence in this case. Black Zetsu is pretty much one of the few go to sources for any raw knowledge on the lore in this show, so Black Zetsu being the voice behind the The hype for Totsuka Blade may as well be the author himself talking on the subject.



Naemlis Orez said:


> Victims are trapped in an illusion (also look at their faces) so they don't recognise what is/has happened and don't fight back. Hence there's no known power struggle. Its like someone in genjutsu getting their hand cut off without trying to dodge. It doesn't mean the blade is undodgeable, just that they didn't try for a specific reason.



The blade's speed is a function of the thrusting strength of the wielder. Itachi's V4 Susano'o just has an incredibly fast jab, so fast that someone at the level of V2 Enhanced Nagato couldn't visually process it as it exited a smokescreen with 30 feet of distance still remaining before it pierced his chest.  That is a separate issue of what happens once the blade stabs its target and the sealing/genjutsu process begins.



Naemlis Orez said:


> So what i meant is that Totsuka doesn't use a strong sealing power, but rather uses an illusion to prevent a power struggle. All techniques are based on power.



perhaps, but It isn't based on *Itachi's power* is what my point is, otherwise he should have fared no better than Old Hiruzen in sealing away Orochimaru. If Old Hiruzen with diminished chakra can only pull out an arm from Oro, then an already exhausted and dying and injured sick Itachi shouldn't have fared any better at all. They are on the same tier stamina wise.




Naemlis Orez said:


> I agree with anything else you said but i think Totsuka was created either by Indra or the Uchiha ancestors based on the genjutsu common factor. So the power of its illusion can also be guesstimated. I wager its either just enough or a tad short of Kaguya, but its conjecture.



It is hard to know who would have been able to create it. Unlikely to have been Hagoromo based on all the evidence, definitely not Kaguya, and unlikely to be Indira or any relevant Uchiha really because Black Zetsu watched that bloodline very carefully and was still surprised to see Totsuka in Itachi's posession, while at the same time he knew how powerful and legendary that blade was. It doesn't necessarily have to be an Uchiha creation to be able to employ genjutsu. Frog song is one of the most powerful Genjutsu created ever and its not related to the uchiha.

I say its enough to seal Kaguya because Black Zetsu, the person who knows Kaguya the most intimately, considered a half dead Itachi invincible while wielding it with Yata. The way he said what he said was portrayed to be authorial intent in my opinion, as Black Zetsu more or less served as a plot device to give info on lore and was Akatsuki's information specialist.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Stonaem (Dec 5, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> The blade's speed is a function of the thrusting strength of the wielder. Itachi's V4 Susano'o just has an incredibly fast jab,


It shape shifts, does it not? 

Since this shape-shifting is decided by the user, i think it does this part at the speed of thought of the user. 

Based on Itachi going for a few cuts at Yamata and doing a little jab at Red Nagato, i think the size limits of the blade are related to the user as well, perhaps predetermined by their total will power. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> That is a separate issue of what happens once the blade stabs its target and the sealing/genjutsu process begins.


Since Kabuto also knows about this blade, why didn't he ST it away? 

What are your thoughts on that?


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 5, 2019)

Naemlis Orez said:


> t shape shifts, does it not?
> 
> Since this shape-shifting is decided by the user, i think it does this part at the speed of thought of the user.
> 
> Based on Itachi going for a few cuts at Yamata and doing a little jab at Red Nagato, i think the size limits of the blade are related to the user as well, perhaps predetermined by their total will power.



The blade might be capable of shape shifting since it lacks a physical form.  It does seem to have undergone changes in size. So it's possible the blade can enlongate itself when it's being thrusted. But either way the elongation + V4 thrust is fast.



Naemlis Orez said:


> Since Kabuto also knows about this blade, why didn't he ST it away?
> 
> What are your thoughts on that?



Because Nagato couldn't react. Most people don't pay any close attention to the scene. The smokescreen's effect is negligible because Nagato was standing around ten meters away from the smokescreen and the point at which the Blade would have emerged be very visible, and furthermore he was also looking directly at the spot in which the blade emerged. The blade is fairly large and easy to see especially since it was angled downward. Nagato's head shifts upward slightly when the blade pierces through him, as indicated by the Blurgit (parenthesis shaped) movement lines on his head which indicate the slight jerking of his head in this context, since he isn't walking and is standing in the exact same spot before and after being hit by the blade, as well as the sound effect AND reaction marks that appear on his head the instant the blade pierces through him.

 That means he only reacted to the blade piercing through him, and not to the thrust of the blade, despite Kabuto looking where the blade was coming from and also being aware he was in a fight: a fight  against 3 S rank shinobi who just destroyed Nagato's most powerful technique and were also clearly hiding in the smokescreen, which again, was right in front of him at a distance of ten meters....

Nagato can't Shinra Tensei something that is faster than his eye's ability to see coming (), and evidently, once you are hit by the blade its game over.


----------



## Big king (Dec 5, 2019)

Do people actually believe totsuka can seal Kaguya? We should really have IQ test for this section

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 5, 2019)

Big king said:


> Do people actually believe totsuka can seal Kaguya? We should really have IQ test for this section



Yep. Welcome to the NBD where the most nonsensical interpretations dominate!

Also does your name signify that you are a larger than normal King or did you name yourself after the Burgerking Bic Mac rip off the big king?


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yep. Welcome to the NBD where the most nonsensical interpretations dominate!


None of you that deny it can seal her have a legitimate reason why it can't. Which is why you can't bring evidence for your stance like me. It's the definition of a Limits Fallacy


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 5, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> 1) lol already countered this. Sasuke literally never saw Totsuka blade ever nor does he know about it. Only orochimaru did and when Sasuke regained his bearings Itachi was no longer using it actively. Naruto saw the blade in action once when it sealed Nagato but he knows nothing of the lore behind the blade or what it's "limits" are. So Naruto's and Sasuke's statements are invalid, the characters are not sufficiently informed on the blade.
> 
> 2) Black Zetsu saying that the ying and yang seals are the strongest doesn't help your argument. Even if Totsuka is second place, we know that there already exists a seal capable of sealing Kaguya *even though the seal was created and implemented by a being weaker than herself.* So you just shot another bullet in the foot of the power based NLF counterargument. It could be yin/yang seal > Totsuka> Kaguya, so neither you or the OP has justified their assertion/met burden of proof.
> 
> 3) Secondly, you are taking several of those statements out of context to begin with. Zetsu and Kaguya are often saying that Naruto on his own can't seal her away, so remind me of what that has to do with Totsuka, when Naruto does not and has not ever possessed Totsuka Blade???? And Totsuka Blade went with Itachi  to the grave, so it practically doesn't exist as an option to begin with short of Sasuke reviving him somehow. Furthermore, why would Black Zetsu and Kaguya  even tell them that Totsuka was an option lolol. That would be stupid. The less options your opponent thinks they have available to beat you, the better.   Not once was Totsuka Blade  explicitly stated to be unable to seal Kaguya.


@ShinAkuma @Cherry @Mar55 
I'd love to see one of you debate this, but we all know you won't


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 5, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> None of you that deny it can seal her have a legitimate reason why it can't. Which is why you can't bring evidence for your stance like me. It's the definition of a Limits Fallacy



Two things:

Nobody gives a shit about your fanfiction nonsense limits fallacy. This is the NBD not fanfiction.net

Secondly....I'm more interested in why the Big King is the Big King than any of your wacky fanfiction pull outta yer ass fallacies that don't exist.

We already know you love you some no limits fallacies. Great. You don't need to remind the world every chance you get.


----------



## Mar55 (Dec 5, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> @ShinAkuma @Cherry @Mar55
> I'd love to see one of you debate this, but we all know you won't


View media item 86578

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Serene Grace (Dec 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> @ShinAkuma @Cherry @Mar55
> I'd love to see one of you debate this, but we all know you won't


I got a test tmmrw. I’d rather save my brain cells for that


----------



## Big king (Dec 6, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yep. Welcome to the NBD where the most nonsensical interpretations dominate!
> 
> Also does your name signify that you are a larger than normal King or did you name yourself after the Burgerking Bic Mac rip off the big king?



I call myself the big King because I'm larger/greater than other kings. Thus I am the big king.


I can tell many of the posters here lack IQ. Guess that's what debating naruto for 5 years after it ended does to you.


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 6, 2019)

I have been saying that for a long time but people will just consider you a fanboy or wanker just for using your common sense. Even so I make it clear that that won't mean she will definitely get sealed. She can still use other means to escape totsuka but the fanbase trying to cap totsuka's limit with head canon has always been ridiculous.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Dec 6, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I have been saying that for a long time but people will just consider you a fanboy or wanker just for using your common sense. Even so I make it clear that that won't mean she will definitely get sealed. She can still use other means to escape totsuka but the fanbase *trying to cap totsuka's limit with head canon has always been ridiculous.*


But posters trying to elevate Totsuka sealing capabilities based of sealing Nagato and the Hydra isn’t? 

Lol where is the worst statement thread when you need it

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 6, 2019)

Cherry said:


> But posters trying to elevate Totsuka sealing capabilities based of sealing Nagato and the Hydra isn’t?


It's not about sealing 8 Branches Orochimaru or Edo Nagato.. It's about the fact Kishi never gave Totsuka Blade a capacity like Reaper Death Seal, and as far as it's showings that's exactly the case. The fact all of you can't provide a shred of evidence Totsuka Blade has limits only proves my point further. Your best arguments are "That doesn't sound right! " and "No Limits Fallacy! "

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shazam (Dec 6, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> 1) lol already countered this. Sasuke literally never saw Totsuka blade ever nor does he know about it. Only orochimaru did and when Sasuke regained his bearings Itachi was no longer using it actively. Naruto saw the blade in action once when it sealed Nagato but he knows nothing of the lore behind the blade or what it's "limits" are. So Naruto's and Sasuke's statements are invalid, the characters are not sufficiently informed on the blade.
> 
> 2) Black Zetsu saying that the ying and yang seals are the strongest doesn't help your argument. Even if Totsuka is second place, we know that there already exists a seal capable of sealing Kaguya *even though the seal was created and implemented by a being weaker than herself.* So you just shot another bullet in the foot of the power based NLF counterargument. It could be yin/yang seal > Totsuka> Kaguya, so neither you or the OP has justified their assertion/met burden of proof.
> 
> 3) Secondly, you are taking several of those statements out of context to begin with. Zetsu and Kaguya are often saying that Naruto on his own can't seal her away, so remind me of what that has to do with Totsuka, when Naruto does not and has not ever possessed Totsuka Blade???? And Totsuka Blade went with Itachi  to the grave, so it practically doesn't exist as an option to begin with short of Sasuke reviving him somehow. Furthermore, why would Black Zetsu and Kaguya  even tell them that Totsuka was an option lolol. That would be stupid. The less options your opponent thinks they have available to beat you, the better.   Not once was Totsuka Blade  explicitly stated to be unable to seal Kaguya.



@WorldsStrongest Do you concede? Lol where are you? Leaving him on read like that lol

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 6, 2019)

Shazam said:


> @WorldsStrongest Do you concede? Lol where are you? Leaving him on read like that lol


I dont concede to bullshit ramblings 

Which is all any argument that suggests Totsuka does dick to Kaguya are

It is confirmed on no less than 4 occasions that Rikudo CT is all that flies against Kaguya 

No matter what bullshit circlejerk @MaruUchiha and @ThirdRidoku have going 

Manga spoonfed us thats all that works

So thats all that works

And then theres the whole bit about Totsuka having no feats to suggest its doing anything to even a lower Biju

Then theres the fact that NARRATIVELY also doesnt make sense considering it took the entire Akatsuki, WITH Itachi included, DAYS to seal a Biju.

Basically youd need to break your own spine with mental gymnastics to attenpt any argument on this subject that isnt “Kaguya tanks neg diff”


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I dont concede to bullshit ramblings
> 
> Which is all any argument that suggests Totsuka does dick to Kaguya are
> 
> ...



This.

It's over.

We won.


----------



## Tri (Dec 6, 2019)

Why is this still a thing?


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I dont concede to bullshit ramblings
> 
> Which is all any argument that suggests Totsuka does dick to Kaguya are


You just admitted you're gonna stonewall no matter how good the evidence is. ThirdRikudou actually made great points that made you hit the hills, but apparently it's automatically "bullshit ramblings" in your eyes


WorldsStrongest said:


> It is confirmed on no less than 4 occasions that Rikudo CT is all that flies against Kaguya


And ThirdRikudou already addressed this point but you hit the hills instead of responding


WorldsStrongest said:


> Manga spoonfed us thats all that works
> 
> So thats all that works


Once again showing that you stonewall, and love ABC logic


WorldsStrongest said:


> Then theres the fact that NARRATIVELY also doesnt make sense considering it took the entire Akatsuki, WITH Itachi included, DAYS to seal a Biju.


You just shot yourself in the foot.. 8 Branches Orochimaru and Nagato are easily Bijuu level in chakra, but we're sealed by Totsuka Blade in seconds!


WorldsStrongest said:


> Kaguya
> tanks neg diff


That's the best you could come up with? I thought your reasoning was atleast something better (but still bad) like "She has too much chakra " or "She can escape from the genjutsu world " but that's what you're gonna stand on? She can't be pierced by a spirit/etheral weapon that should bypass conventional physical limits like durability?


Tri said:


> Why is this still a thing?


Ikr? Me and ThirdRikudou are the only ones that came with solid evidence and reasoning. All of you denying haven't come with any logical evidence or even a decent argument. We already won this debate


----------



## Mar55 (Dec 6, 2019)

View media item 86731View media item 86730View media item 86576


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 6, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> View media item 86731View media item 86730View media item 86576


Continue proving my point that all of you denying can't debate for your stance if your life depended on it. Stuff like this is the best you guys can respond with


----------



## Mar55 (Dec 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> can't debate for your stance


What stance is that? That Kaguya is noted as unstoppable without a seal created by the highest of god for the express purpose of sealing her away and preventing her continued actions?

The same god that created several high level sealing items akin to the Totsuka Blade, but didn’t even bother considering them options?


In my personal opinion, this isn’t debatable and I just find the shit storm that is this thread very funny and entertaining.

The memes are just memes, relax dude. Smoke some bud or something, you seem a little high strung.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 6, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> What stance is that? That Kaguya is noted as unstoppable without a seal created by the highest of god for the express purpose of sealing her away and preventing her continued actions?


Again, ThirdRikudou already addressed this but you guys are too scared to try debating him because you know you have nothing to stand on


Mar55 said:


> The same god that created several high level sealing items akin to the Totsuka Blade, but didn’t even bother considering them options?


You mean Hagoromo's tools? Based on what are those created by Kaguya or hyped to be limitless like Totsuka Blade?


----------



## Mar55 (Dec 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Again


Let me stop you here, I don’t care about what some other user has said or thinks. Hence why I didn’t respond to him.

If you want to be his cheerleader, do it with someone who gives a shit.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 6, 2019)

Cherry said:


> But posters trying to elevate Totsuka sealing capabilities based of sealing Nagato and the Hydra isn’t?
> 
> Lol where is the worst statement thread when you need it



No that is exactly what I am saying. It's ridiculous that people use head canon to say totsuka can't seal anything above Nagato. It is literally just head canon. Noone stated what it can and can't seal. Period.


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 6, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> No that is exactly what I am saying. It's ridiculous that people use head canon to say totsuka can't seal anything above Nagato. It is literally just head canon. Noone stated what it can and can't seal. Period.


They also can't provide a shred of evidence for their stance. I've been asking for months now


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> They also can't provide a shred of evidence for their stance. I've been asking for months now



The entire point of the no limits fallacy is to prevent these types of nonsensical requests and wank.

Just because something isn't stated to have a limit (especially something poorly understood and defined) doesn't mean it has no limits. One could make the argument that we don't know the limits of Totsuka, which would at least be fair to say.

Also where does it stop if it wasn't stated to have a limit? Can it seal god? If not what about the tier below god? Or the tier below that?


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 6, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Also where does it stop if it wasn't stated to have a limit? Can it seal god? If not what about the tier below god? Or the tier below that?


Take it up with Kishi for being an Itachi wanker not us, and find a decent argument while you're at it instead of the terrible "No Limits Fallacy" scapegoat


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Take it up with Kishi for being an Itachi wanker not us,



There is multiple instances of poorly understood phenomenon that can be extrapolated to infinity in this manga. It has nothing to do with "Kishi wanking Itachi".



> and find a decent argument while you're at it instead of the terrible "No Limits Fallacy" scapegoat



No limits fallacy is a real argument. Anybody with a shred of logic knows this, so not you obviously.


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 6, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> There is multiple instances of poorly understood phenomenon that can be extrapolated to infinity in this manga. It has nothing to do with "Kishi wanking Itachi".


Such as?


ShinAkuma said:


> No limits fallacy is a real argument.


Not in this case. It's you having nothing else to stand on and being in denial of the fact Kishi gave it the ability to seal any and everything


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Such as?



Frog song.



> Not in this case. It's you having nothing else to stand on and being in denial of the fact Kishi gave it the ability to seal any and everything



It was not stated to seal any and everything.

*Link Removed*

Also note that even tho Zetsu tells us it should seal away those it pierces "for ALL TIME" it in fact failed to do such a thing immediately.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No matter what bullshit circlejerk @MaruUchiha and @ThirdRidoku have going
> 
> Manga spoonfed us thats all that works
> 
> ...



1)




WorldsStrongest said:


> I dont concede to bullshit ramblings
> 
> Which is all any argument that suggests Totsuka does dick to Kaguya are
> 
> It is confirmed on no less than 4 occasions that Rikudo CT is all that flies against Kaguya



4 occasions that were debunked. In the first two occasions, you used characters that have zero intel on the Totsuka Blade to gauge its abilities. You even took a Databook statement completely out of proportion to serve this purpose. If RSM Naruto has an innate understanding of everything chakra, then why couldn't he recognize that he was dealing with a clone of Madara without Sasuke telling him (limbo) ? He clearly has the pinnacle of sensory ability so he can definitely sense anything that has chakra, but it doesn't grant complete and utter omniscience. All he could do was detect that something was moving about and trying to attack him, nothing more. When Naruto has actual scientific or historical knowledge on the Totsuka Blade that shows he actually would be able to calculate its limits, then I'll be listening.

Then in the latter two occasions, you used characters (Zetsu and Kaguya) who have no reason to inform their enemies of alternate sealing methods. We can assume for example the amber pot wouldn't be able to seal Kaguya, because The guy who was confirmed to have created the amber pot needed to use the yin yang seal to seal Kaguya with the help of his brother, and he never suggested the amber pot as a backup option for sealing Kaguya. So that pretty much rules out the other six path sealing tools as well.  But there is zero evidence that Hagoromo knows of the Totsuka Blade or created it so you have no evidence that he knew Totsuka was even an option.

Black Zetsu is the only one worth discussing, as he has more intelligence than his mother. And all he said was that the yin yang seal was a "most powerful seal" that sealed his mother, not that it was the only seal that could do it. Nothing else can be reliably concluded from his statements. He couldn't lie to them about the power of the yin and yang seals because it already worked on Kaguya once, and he went out of his way to have Kaguya separate the reincarnates, which already lets us know that they would work. Outside of that, he can plead the fifth on any other sealing method working, and he for dam sure isn't gonna volunteer that information to his enemies. His entire character revolves around information gathering, information tampering (like editing the stone tablet to trick Madara), and information denial.



2)

lol @MaruUchiha already schooled you here but I'm just gonna reinforce. You are telling me that Red Nagato doesn't have bijuu levels of chakra? After the bro absorbed a  V2 Gyuki cloak and part of a KCM  Naruto chakra arm + rasengan + being an 100 percent uzumaki (Plus Black Zetsu also said Nagato is a Senju descendant on top of that, another closely related bloodline known for chakra prowess)? A single V2 Bee cloak on its own had so much chakra that Kisame, someone who was confirmed multiple times to have bijuu levels of chakra, couldn't believe that Killer Bee could maintain his sanity.

Your stance is also massively flawed in many ways. One is,  Black Zetsu , Orochimaru, and "others (Most probably other Akatsuki members)" were searching for the blade, meaning its sealing properties are clearly highly coveted. Itachi very clearly, obviously had motive to hide the fact that he poessesed the blade from Akatsuki given his role in the organization. Not even Black Zetsu was aware Itachi got to it first. So why would he just shout out to the organization that they can use it to seal bijuu? 

Not that we have reason to believe that using the blade for this purpose makes any lick of sense in the first place. The goal was to revive the ten tails to either use it as a nuke that could be rented or to use it to cast the infinite tsykuyomi depending on which "leader" of the Akatsuki you asked, and reviving the ten tails requires the bijuu to be placed inside the* Gedo Mazo, not a gourd lol. We have no idea if people trapped in the Totsuka gourd can  even be released.*

 Furthermore, The reason The Akatsuki took so long to seal bijuu was because they needed to bypass the defenses of the seal that was used to place the bijuu in the jinchuriki in the first place, so this is a massive false equivalence. I don't think Totsuka can rip Gyuki out of Killer Bee for example unless he was already in Full BM, and I imagine something similar to what happened in the war arc would happen based. Gyuki would be sealed away but its possible  Bee could substitute out in a stray tentacle.
But otherwise, if Bee isn't in Full BM and he was stabbed, he would be sealed away and Gyuki would remain inside him, but both end up being sealed obviously since Gyuki is still inside of Bee. But that's completely different than ripping Gyuki from inside Killer Bee....




ShinAkuma said:


> Also note that even tho Zetsu tells us it should seal away those it pierces "for ALL TIME" it in fact failed to do such a thing immediately.



Massive nitpick. That statement could easily be interpreted to mean that the genjutsu begins once the victim is trapped in the gourd, as there is no evidence that they are in a state of "drunken stupor" anytime before that. Both Orochimaru and Nagato maintained the ability to speak coherently without any signs of drowsiness or impaired consciousness after being stabbed. 



ShinAkuma said:


> T*he entire point of the no limits fallacy is to prevent these types of nonsensical requests and wank.
> 
> Just because something isn't stated to have a limit (especially something poorly understood and defined) doesn't mean it has no limits. One could make the argument that we don't know the limits of Totsuka, which would at least be fair to say.*
> 
> Also where does it stop if it wasn't stated to have a limit? Can it seal god? If not what about the tier below god? Or the tier below that?



I agree with the bolded, but you the underlined shows a bit of a contradiction in your argument. @WorldsStrongest was making the positive claim  (which they have yet to properly substantiate) that Totsuka's limit is Kaguya, and has apparently even scaled that limit down to below bijuu level now even though the blade already sealed a bijuu level entity on panel, and yet you claimed he "won". My original argument was never any kind of NLF. I simply debunked the most common argument against Totsuka, which is that Itachi's power level is linked to the blade's ability, and therefore sealing Nagato doesn't mean we can extrapolate his abilities to people more powerful than that. I demonstrated that the blade's effectiveness is highly unlikely to be related to his power and skill, because we have already seen that other high level sealing techniques confirmed to be ninjutsu (DRS) were heavily dependent on the stamina of the user. Minato literally said he could not seal the entirety of Kurama, half of it was his limit, and even that was a struggle. Old Hiruzen could barely pull out two arms from Orochimaru despite being roughly in the same tier of stamina as an already exhausted Itachi, who showed no struggle whatsoever in sealing Orochimaru despite the massive  gap in power. Same thing goes for Itachi sealing Gyuki Boosted Nagato.

 The mechanics of Totsuka aren't understood entirely, but we know for almost certain that it is not based on the power of the wielder, which makes sense because it was heavily implied that both Totsuka and Yata were relics/artifacts/tools. So Kaguya being more powerful is irrelevant to this discussion. She is a character of the Narutoverse, he has a chakra network so she isn't immune to genjutsu no matter how powerful and how resistant she is to it, and the sealing method of Totsuka seems to counteract the victim's ability to use ninjutsu once the sealing process has begun (which we have seen other powerful sealing methods do, as Orochimaru couldn't cast any ninjutsu while Hiruzen was pulling out his soul). So I don't think she can dimension hop if she was to be pierced by the blade.  

On my end, I justified my positive claim that it can seal Kaguya because of Black Zetsu's neutral statements on the blade (used as a plot device to explain the lore and he has the resume that allows us to take his word to be an expert authority on the subject), and he is literally the most informed person in the show, and Databook 3 was used to reinforce the statement, and I don't recall him ever calling his beloved mother invincible, yet he called a man dying of a terminal illness and nearly gassed out of chakra invincible simply based on the fact he was simultaneously wielding both of these artifacts. He literally said " ... *so combined with Totsuka for attacks*, he's invincible..." Right there is the author explicitly telling you that the blade , at least as far as the narutoverse is concerned, can seal away all targets it pierces.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 6, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Massive nitpick.



It's not. 

It's simply the facts.

If the argument is based on the idea that Zetsu said X, yet X is immediately debunked, then your premise fails immediately.



> That statement could easily be interpreted to mean that the genjutsu begins once the victim is trapped in the gourd, as there is no evidence that they are in a state of "drunken stupor" anytime before that.



Sure but that would imply that stabbing + time = sealing. If that is the case then there is obviously a window to resist the technique, in which a being of Kaguya's power would take advantage thus supporting the idea that Totsuka cannot seal Kaguya.



> I agree with the bolded, but you the underlined shows a bit of a contradiction in your argument.



It's not contradictory to *my argument*, which specifically is I can agree that we do not know the limits not that it has no limits.

Those are two distinctly different positions that elicit two different answers. The premise of no limits comes with the answer of "yes" when asked if Totsuka could seal Kaguya. My premise comes with the answer of "we don't know".



> @WorldsStrongest was making the positive claim  (which they have yet to properly substantiate) that Totsuka's limit is Kaguya, and has apparently even scaled that limit down to below bijuu level now even though the blade already sealed a bijuu level entity on panel, and yet you claimed he "won". My original argument was never any kind of NLF. I simply debunked the most common argument against Totsuka, which is that Itachi's power level is linked to the blade's ability, and therefore sealing Nagato doesn't mean we can extrapolate his abilities to people more powerful than that. I demonstrated that the blade's effectiveness is highly unlikely to be related to his power and skill, because we have already seen that other high level sealing techniques confirmed to be ninjutsu (DRS) were heavily dependent on the stamina of the user. Minato literally said he could not seal the entirety of Kurama, half of it was his limit, and even that was a struggle. Old Hiruzen could barely pull out two arms from Orochimaru despite being roughly in the same tier of stamina as an already exhausted Itachi, who showed no struggle whatsoever in sealing Orochimaru despite the massive  gap in power. Same thing goes for Itachi sealing Gyuki Boosted Nagato.



Don't conflate my trolling of @MaruUchiha as an actual argument, just as one should never conflate anything Maru says as an actual argument.



> The mechanics of Totsuka aren't understood entirely, but we know for almost certain that it is not based on the power of the wielder, which makes sense because it was heavily implied that both Totsuka and Yata were relics/artifacts/tools. So Kaguya being more powerful is irrelevant to this discussion. She is a character of the Narutoverse, he has a chakra network so she isn't immune to genjutsu no matter how powerful and how resistant she is to it, and the sealing method of Totsuka seems to counteract the victim's ability to use ninjutsu once the sealing process has begun (which we have seen other powerful sealing methods do, as Orochimaru couldn't cast any ninjutsu while Hiruzen was pulling out his soul). So I don't think she can dimension hop if she was to be pierced by the blade.



The blade couldn't stop Oro from escaping. As a result there is no reason to assume the most powerful entity ever seen couldn't put up any defense.

As to why Nagato didn't do anything - my theory is Totsuka broke the Edo hold on Nagato evidenced by him speaking on his own behalf and not Kabuto. As a result he would have no reason to resist even if that option were available to him.

If you don't buy it, that's fine. I'm not trying to convince you one way or another.



> On my end, I justified my positive claim that it can seal Kaguya



You can't prove a positive claim of an NLF or an unknown quantity. The best one can argue is that it's unknown. You feel it's justified? Sure. I will let you sort that out with @WorldsStrongest


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 7, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> 4 occasions that were debunked


You are incapable of debunking a single one actually


ThirdRidoku said:


> In the first two occasions, you used characters that have zero intel on the Totsuka Blade


That was also not the putpose of me bringing them up or are you incapable of reading?

I TOLD you exactly why they were brought up





WorldsStrongest said:


> *Link Removed**Link Removed*





WorldsStrongest said:


> *Link Removed*


2 dudes who have HORRENDOUSLY better feats of sealing and HILARIOUSLY higher hyped seals than fucking Totsuka blade, BOTH of those dudes look at Kaguya, and state "Yeah fam no fucking dice" "Rikudo CT or bust" "Good thing we have these seals or wed be fucked"

So no

Totsuka isnt doing shit



ThirdRidoku said:


> You even took a Databook statement completely out of proportion to serve this purpose


Not...Really?


ThirdRidoku said:


> If RSM Naruto has an innate understanding of everything chakra, then why couldn't he recognize that he was dealing with a clone of Madara without Sasuke telling him (limbo) ?


Probably because Limbo doesnt even EXIST in his plain of reality

Not really applicable to Titsuka bud

Naruto SAW Totsuka ON PANEL and also would have SENSED its sealing process

He knows EXACTLY what that technique is, how it functions and what its capable of and he states ONLY Rikudo CT works

Hes also aware of multitudes of other powerful sealing methods like his own Magnet release, RDS, Amber pot and who the fuck knows what else via RSM, and he states ONLY RIKUDO CT WORKS

Sasuke ALSO saw Totsuka in action and knows of its existence and states the only chance for the ENTIRE WORLD is Rikudo CT

You have no argument here bud

There is genuinely not one fucking piece of evidence in this series you can use to indicate Totsuka is even 1/1000th as strong as you are claiming it is

Youre a deluded Itachi fanboy clinging to NLF like your life depends on it


ThirdRidoku said:


> it doesn't grant complete and utter omniscience.


I never said it did

He also doesnt need it to

As hes WITNESSED and SENSED Totsuka in action ON PANEL and is capable of his own ridiculously powerful seals and states only Rikudo CT works

This is corroborated by LITERALLY EVERYONE who speaks about sealing Kaguya whos testimony is worth even half a damn

Including not 1, not 2, but fucking 3 PEOPLE who have seen Totsuka blade

EVen ignoring Totsukas completely dirt tier feats relative to this level of ability, your argument is still just hilarious

Get better opinions please


ThirdRidoku said:


> When Naruto has actual scientific or historical knowledge on the Totsuka Blade that shows he actually would be able to calculate its limits, then I'll be listening.


Try him BEING PRESENT and WITNESSING ITS POWER IN PERSON while using a TOP TIER SENSORY ABILITY

Jesus H Christ its like...Are you even capable of logic?

At all?


ThirdRidoku said:


> Then in the latter two occasions, you used characters (Zetsu and Kaguya) who have no reason to inform their enemies of alternate sealing methods.


Their enemies are capable of insanely powerful seals and they both know it

They dont need to worry about informing them of alternate seals

And again, their every seal is worlds more powerful than Totsuka

This argument makes no sense


ThirdRidoku said:


> Black Zetsu is the only one worth discussing, as he has more intelligence than his mother. And all he said was that the yin yang seal was a "most powerful seal" that sealed his mother, not that it was the only seal that could do it.


*Link Removed*

*Link Removed* *Link Removed*

You have no fucking idea what youre talking about


ThirdRidoku said:


> l @MaruUchiha already schooled you here


Please Maru isnt capable of schooling shit 

Like you, theres a solid argument to be made whether youve read this manga at all in fact


ThirdRidoku said:


> You are telling me that Red Nagato doesn't have bijuu levels of chakra?


He factually does not have that level of chakra

*Link Removed*, and *Link Removed*

3x Part 1 KN0 Naruto (if hes even being compared to that Naruto, im giving Kisame the benefit of the doubt here and comparing him to the strongest Naruto Neji has ever seen) is NOT anywhere CLOSE to Biju levels

Kisame isnt Biju level, and Nagato is inferior to him

End of story


ThirdRidoku said:


> After the bro absorbed a V2 Gyuki cloak and part of a KCM Naruto chakra arm + rasengan + being an 100 percent uzumaki



Being "100%" Uzumaki was just debunked as being anywhere NEAR Biju level. Full Biju >>> V2 Jins >>> Full V1 Jins > Partial V1 Jins > Kisame > Initial V1 Jins (KN0) >=< Nagato is stated
A V2 cloak is literally nothing to a Bijus full power or reserves, it aint close either. That thrown onto Nagato really doesnt mean shit and makes him in no way Biju level
A single chakra arm? Fucking really?
Youre also omitting the dude used Ningendo, Asura path, summoned, AND used fucking CT the most taxing Rinnegan Jutsu all before he was sealed if we are getting super nitpicky here Mr. Chakra arm doe



ThirdRidoku said:


> Kisame, someone who was confirmed multiple times to have bijuu levels of chakra


He isnt tho

Hes compared to JINCHURIKI, and on the LOWER SPECTRUM of it at that

Jins =/= Biju at any given time, thats asinine.

You are also aware that you debunked yourself here right? Actually youre probbaly not so Ill educate you

You just admitted that Kisame looked at a single V2 shroud and was amazed Bee wasnt fucking insane after using it


ThirdRidoku said:


> A single V2 Bee cloak on its own had so much chakra that Kisame, someone who was confirmed multiple times to have bijuu levels of chakra, couldn't believe that Killer Bee could maintain his sanity.


That line of reasoning ALONE debunks the notion Kisame is "biju level" in any fucking way

If a single V2 cloak was making him trip the fuck out, hes not Biju level.

Period.

Thats also backed bu Nejis testimony as well considering he states 30% of Kisame = KN0 Part 1 Naruto at best

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Big king (Dec 7, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> None of you that deny it can seal her have a legitimate reason why it can't. Which is why you can't bring evidence for your stance like me. It's the definition of a Limits Fallacy



Usually the sane doesn't engage the insane. We just lock you guys up in Quarantine

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 7, 2019)

Big king said:


> Usually the sane doesn't engage the insane. We just lock you guys up in Quarantine





MaruUchiha said:


> Continue proving my point that all of you denying can't debate for your stance if your life depended on it. Stuff like this is the best you guys can respond with


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 7, 2019)

Tri said:


> Why is this still a thing?



Because it is still unknown whether it can or can't seal Kaguya.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 7, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Because it is still unknown whether it can or can't seal Kaguya.


No it isnt

Its literally stated like half a dozen times all that works on kaguya is Rikudo CT

Totsukas best feat also isnt even Low Biju tier, let alone Yang Kurama whos worth 5 times that, let alone full Kurama, let alone the Juubi, let alone a Juubi Jin, Let alone a Juubi Jin with Shinju, let alone Kaguya whos above said Juubi Jin

Theres no argument here at all

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No it isnt
> 
> *Its literally stated like half a dozen times all that works on kaguya is Rikudo CT*
> 
> ...



That isnt stated at all.


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 7, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That isnt stated at all.


It is, but by Sasuke who doesn't know shit about Totsuka Blade or it's capabilities


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 7, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That isnt stated at all.


It is stated several times bud

Ive posted no less than 4 instances

3 of whom literally saw Totsuka in action no less

Read the manga 

Or my posts


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 7, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> It is, but by Sasuke who doesn't know shit about Totsuka Blade or it's capabilities


Sasuke saw Totsuka seal Oro

Its also stated by Naruto who saw and sensed it seal Nagato

And stated by BZ who gave us literally everything we know about it


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke saw Totsuka seal Oro
> 
> Its also stated by Naruto who saw and sensed it seal Nagato
> 
> And stated by BZ who gave us literally everything we know about it


Which changes nothing because Itachi was fucking dead.. Why in God's name would they bring that up as a possible option to seal her?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 7, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Which changes nothing because Itachi was fucking dead.


Changes literally everything 

Rikudo CT wouldnt be referred to as the only possible fucking method for the entire world if something as trash as Totsuka blade was an option


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 7, 2019)




----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 7, 2019)

The wheel spinning if like 3 people in here is actually pathetic

Cant accept stated facts and Totsukas utter lack of impressive showings apparently

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 8, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> It is stated several times bud
> 
> Ive posted no less than 4 instances
> 
> ...



nope it isn´t. Totsuka blade doesn´t even exist anymore since the only way to get it was activating Itachi´s Susano again so none of the statements you would try to use consider Totsuka blade as available which is most likely why it can´t be used. Don´t get me wrong I want to believe you but so far your posts lack conclusive evidence.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> nope it isn´t


Yes

Yes it is

"Thats the power you need to seal mother"

Is outright stated

Among several other instances, but the dude who HYPED UP TOTSUKA, aka the mouthpiece for EVERY BIT OF EVIDENCE we have for Totsuka, stated this

It is fucking asinine to believe Totsuka is anything impressive

Just look at its dirt tier feats, the entire argument is debunked there too

But the fact Kaguya, Black Zetsu, Sasuke and Naruto all stated 'ONLY RIKUDO CT WORKS" should also be real telling

The fact THE SAGE OF SIX FUCKING PATHS and HIS BROTHER as a TEAM also needed Rikudo CT to win should ALSO be telling

But we have dudes like you and maru and rikudo in here actually just denying manga evidence over nothing but your own personal opinions 

Its nonsense 


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Totsuka blade doesn´t even exist anymore


It doesnt need to for the statements to be validated bud

Naruto and Sasuke are both capable of more powerful sealing techniques, everyone present knows this, and its still stated Rikudo CT is all theyeve got, literally their only hope

Dude, Narutos magnet release slapped one of JJ Madaras Limbo clones...That is HILARIOUSLY a better showing than anything Totsuka has done, and magnet release was stated to be a "no go"

Sasukes base CTs were strong enough to slap diff all 9 Biju at once, thats ALSO a hilariously better feat than Totsuka has, and thats also stated to not be an option

There is no argument here

"Totsuka wouldnt have been relevant to bring up" doesnt matter, STRONGER seals were PERFECTLY relevent and its stated the ONLY THING THAT WORKS IS RIKUDO CT

Period

Kishi had 4 different characters on the God tier level all state this, couldnt have been clearer 


DiscoZoro20 said:


> the only way to get it was activating Itachi´s Susano again


This is also bullshit

Totsuka is a physical weapon that one can attain as stated by BZ and Oro, there likely is another method to gain it, as its not like Itachi or Totsuka were sealed away or whatever.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> none of the statements you would try to use consider Totsuka blade as available


They dont need to


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Don´t get me wrong I want to believe you but so far your posts lack conclusive evidence.


Thats cute


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 8, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes
> 
> Yes it is
> 
> ...



You sound desperate. I'm on phone so I won't bother with this wall of text but I repeat. You have yet to provide convincing evidence. All I see is forced interpretations and downplay of totsuka blade's sealing abilities. 

Try again but this time with *factual* evidence. The bold is important here. Not your head canon.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 9, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> P*robably because Limbo doesnt even EXIST in his plain of reality
> 
> Not really applicable to Titsuka bud*
> 
> ...




Bolded is an excuse. Limbo clones are very much a manifestation of Madara's chakra and they interact with matter in the normal realm, as clearly evidenced by them hitting and transferring momentum to 9 bijuus, sakura feeling it blocking her punch, and Naruto and Sasuke perceiving them. Naruto could not identify or explain what was happening other than basal levels of object identification and motion detection. Therefore he doesn't have the inherent capacity to understand something like Totsuka which he only experienced once while in an inferior sensory mode.

Seeing something in action/sensing it  doesn't mean you understand it lol, are you serious bud? I have seen a plane flying before, heard it flying too, doesn't mean I know how the physics of how it flies. Sasuke couldn't identify the Totsuka Blade or Yata mirror when he saw them in action at any point in time. Please prove he knows what Totsuka is * by name,* let alone it's  limits lol.

Also, I never used any NLF. When did I say Totsuka has no limits at all lol? Please show that to me. I don't believe it can necessarily seal characters in other verses, because it uses genjutsu in some way which requires a chakra network as a base.  And BZ's knowledge doesn't extend to other verses and Kishimoto didn't write this to be applied to other verses....I simply believe that in the Narutoverse everything is fair game because the author went out of his way to hype it through the most informed character in the show. That isn't NLF bud. I'm telling you I believe what I believe because WE WERE TOLD SO ON PANEL lol.



WorldsStrongest said:


> 2 dudes who have HORRENDOUSLY better feats of sealing and HILARIOUSLY higher hyped seals than fucking Totsuka blade, BOTH of those dudes look at Kaguya, and state "Yeah fam no fucking dice" "Rikudo CT or bust" "Good thing we have these seals or wed be fucked"




Not at all. Totsuka's hype is easily on par with the yin yang seals. Black zetsu knows Totsuka just as much as the yin yang seals. And he considered a blind guy dying of an unknown illness and chakra exhaustion invincible just on the mere fact he had these two artifacts, one of which Akatsuki had been looking for explicitly.




WorldsStrongest said:


> I never said it did
> 
> He also doesnt need it to
> 
> ...




No, the problem is you refuse to take into account the credibility of your sources. Kaguya literally had never seen transformation jutsu before, yet I'm supposed to believe she knows anything about a rare artifact that almost certaintly came after her time? And again, characters are allowed to lie/withhold information from their enemies, especially to bluff. If the characters are not being neutral, then their statements aren't absolute. If the characters don't have sufficient knowledge on the subject , their statements can't be absolute.
Kabuto thought he gave Madara the rinnegan and he was mistaken because he didn't know the full story of what happened at the Valley of the End.
Seeing something doesn't mean understanding how it works lol, just rehashing.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Being "100%" Uzumaki was just debunked as being anywhere NEAR Biju level. Full Biju >>> V2 Jins >>> Full V1 Jins > Partial V1 Jins > Kisame > Initial V1 Jins (KN0) >=< Nagato is stated
> 
> A V2 cloak is literally nothing to a Bijus full power or reserves, it aint close either. That thrown onto Nagato really doesnt mean shit and makes him in no way Biju level
> 
> ...





WorldsStrongest said:


> He isnt tho
> 
> Hes compared to JINCHURIKI, and on the LOWER SPECTRUM of it at that
> 
> ...



Lol, Kisame is literally called the Tailless Tailed Beast? His chakra is on par with one of the weaker bijuus for certain. Not all Bijuus have the same quantity of chakra. Killer Bee's single V2 cloak simply dwarfs the amount of chakra that Kisame has drained before in his other jinchuriki hunts. That's a feat for Gyuki.  A4's V2 Cloak also contained bijuu levels of chakra  according to Karin (who was likely using Killer Bee as reference since that's the only bijuu she has fought lol)  and A4 was always portrayed to have  a similar amount  of chakra to cloaked Bee so.....
Nagato using all those jutsu is irrelevant, because you are forgetting he is an Edo tensei, which means his chakra reserves are constantly refilling. Absorbing Bee's Chakra simply increased the size of his  chakra reserves back to what they were before Nagato used rinne tensei, which is why Nagato also got back his prime body hair color and all.  The Nagato that Itachi sealed  objectively has bijuu levels of chakra.

And the point here is, the blade can certainly seal things at the bijuu level because it sealed someone who had bijuu levels of chakra lol. No further extrapolation is needed. It has an on panel feat for that.




WorldsStrongest said:


> Hes also aware of multitudes of other powerful sealing methods like his own Magnet release, RDS, Amber pot and who the fuck knows what else via RSM, and he states ONLY RIKUDO CT WORKS



Lol. Seals in his arsenal aside from the yin yang seals  obviously won't work. I trust that Naruto knows the limits of his own personal sealing techniques, that's obvious. Amber pot and other six path tools? sure, because Hagomoro didn't ever suggest them and explicitly emphasized the use of the seals. So Sasuke's statement surely includes those tools. RDS definitely won't work because its power is  based on the stamina of the user. Any seals below that won't work as well too. In fact almost all other seals we have seen aside from the aforementioned are dependent on user stamina. so yeah, pretty much all other seals bar Totsuka are ruled out then and there.  So yeah, I know that already. Doesn't prove a thing about Totsuka's limitations though, you need to first prove Naruto is a credible source on Totsuka when he doesn't know about it's lore in any capacity nor is his RSM an inherently reliable source when it failed to understand a ninjutsu on panel lol. Same goes For Hagomoro. He missed things. He couldn't even comprehend that the juubi was his own mother rofl. He also didn't know his stone tablet strategy failed because it was edited by BZ. I have no reason to assume that he knows of the Blade.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Their enemies are capable of insanely powerful seals and they both know it
> 
> They dont need to worry about informing them of alternate seals
> 
> ...



lol no. First PROVE beyond reasonable doubt that yin yang seals are more "powerful" than Totsuka. The seals work completely differently first of all. One puts you in a jar and puts you in genjutsu. The other puts you in a giant rock.  If Totsuka does work, then Kaguya and Zetsu have every reason to omit that information from their enemies. Basic stuff here man. Zetsu himself was searching for the Totsuka Blade and considered it to be an invincible attack, something which the Databook entry elaborates on further. So before you call me "deluded" , take it up with the man you are also citing for your arguments.

"The power to seal mother" doesn't mean the *only *power to seal mother btw. I have the power to travel to Canada. I can either take a plane or take a train.  In naruto and sasuke;s case, its through Hagomoro's seals. Black Zetsu never once says its the only possible option. Furthermore, the guy wasn't being neutral when it came to Kaguya's abilities the entire fight. Bluffing his mother could absorb any and all jutsu yet she never showed the ability to absorb susano'o, got fucked up by 9 FRS and nearly lost control of her bijuu, and couldn't absorb the yin yang seal ninjutsu that creates the Chibaku tensei. Its basic pyshcological warfare to make yourself seem invincible to your ENEMIES.




ShinAkuma said:


> It's not.
> 
> It's simply the facts.
> 
> If the argument is based on the idea that Zetsu said X, yet X is immediately debunked, then your premise fails immediately.


Not really because the databook entry also uses the same wording and also more clearly emphasizes the gourd as the final destination for the souls sucked out by the Blade. That's what they end up being sealed and  trapped in, and its heavily implied that that is the genjutsu world of drunken stupor they enter, whatever that means. The point is they are sealed away (in the gourd) for all time, implicating there is no escape once the sealing is done. Nagato ain't coming back. The sealing process was never stated to be immediate, but when the target is actually sealed they are sealed for all time. The lexical intent is clear even though not worded in the best fashion. I said I felt it was a nitpick because in this case its clear what the author meant to say, especially when he repeats the same thing in his databook. So BZ isn't at fault there imo.



ShinAkuma said:


> Sure but that would imply that stabbing + time = sealing. If that is the case then there is obviously a window to resist the technique, in which a being of Kaguya's power would take advantage thus supporting the idea that Totsuka cannot seal Kaguya.




Not inherently.  DB confirms the blade sucks your soul. We saw that Orochimaru was powerless to use any ninjutsu during this process in the case of the RDS, even though he was actively resisting the removal  of his soul. Totsuka likely works the same and more on that below. Kaguya is more powerful but her power again isn't really relevant when we already saw that Orochimaru's power to resist ( due to the stamina gap between himself and dying Hiruzen) didn't help him at all in casting ninjutsu.




ShinAkuma said:


> The blade couldn't stop Oro from escaping. As a result there is no reason to assume the most powerful entity ever seen couldn't put up any defense.
> 
> As to why Nagato didn't do anything - my theory is Totsuka broke the Edo hold on Nagato evidenced by him speaking on his own behalf and not Kabuto. As a result he would have no reason to resist even if that option were available to him.
> 
> If you don't buy it, that's fine. I'm not trying to convince you one way or another.



Oro didn't escape. it was confirmed in the databook that Oro was sealed. Oro =/= his snakes, and its evident because that snake died to a measly amaterasu. The real Orochimaru wouldn't have succumbed to that. The snakes weren't directly tagged by the blade so its not surprising that it escaped. Only Oro and the remaining hydra head were tagged. 

With regards to Nagato, going back to my earlier point, the instant he was hit the soul hijacking process began as Kabuto's control over Nagato was rescinded, as per Itachi's statement and the change in Nagato's eyes. The pellet on Kabuto's board only cracked when Nagato entered the gourd though. That is evidence that Totsuka blade interferes with ninjutsu/chakra in the enemy upon piercing, much like RDS, which we already had evidence for based on DB3 entry. Itachi also implied that once the sealing process begins, there was nothing more that could be done other than Nagato giving his last word. Otherwise, there would be little reason not to stop the process and not have Nagato join the war effort, since he was an ally of Naruto's at this point and was completely free of Kabuto's control in the same way that Itachi was (thanks to Koto). Nagato absorbing the blade, pushing it out of his chest with ST, etc were all  options that could have been attempted  to theorectically free himself, but weren't done. Nagato didn't (or couldn't) and Itachi didn't suggest it either (most probably because it couldn't be done).  Combining all of that that with Zetsu's claim the blade and the DB3 entry largely rehashing Zetsu's words that it iss an invincible attack and you have my conclusion. It might as well have come from Kishimoto's mouth because these are literally the only two sources on the blade, and both of them have credibility (BZ was a neutral third party observer that served to inform us as lore and again, information specialist and DB3 comes from the author). I see no compelling reason to question the information we were given since nothing has really contradicted it.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 9, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Not really because the databook entry also uses the same wording and also more clearly emphasizes the gourd as the final destination for the souls sucked out by the Blade.



Which is immediately debunked by the fact it *failed to seal Oro*.

The wording is specifically "seal away for all time".

When determining if something is accurate or not you only have a maximum of 3 boxes to check.

True

False

Maybe

In the case the "seal away for all time" box is checked as - false.

Oro was neither sealed completely (white snake escaped) nor was it for all time. (Sasuke released Oro without ever interacting with Totsuka or the seal)

As a result your premise is immediately debunked by the evidence.

That still doesn't mean the databook is necessarily wrong about Totsuka or what it intends, however *Itachi's use of the blade* does not result in fulfilling the databook hype.

The rest of your content isn't relevant as your premise, at least in how it related to Itachi's use of the blade, is a false one from the outset.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 12, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Which is immediately debunked by the fact it *failed to seal Oro*.
> 
> The wording is specifically "seal away for all time".
> 
> ...



Firstly, we don't know when those 3 snakes were created, they could have been created prior to the stabbing. And those snakes certainly weren't Orochimaru. we have seen Kabuto hide himself in snakes and then remerge. Orochimaru said himself his return was directly facilitated by Sasuke, which means he never substituted out of the Totsuka gourd or escaped. Orochimaru 's consciousness was split among the various curse marks he had, and he is able to view the world through those curse marks, and his body can be reconsistiuted from any of those curse marks. Its no different than the chakra that Minato stored in Baby Naruto that allowed Naruto to meet with both Minato and Kushina later in life. The real Minato was trapped in death Reaper Seal, while apart of Minato's chakra and consciousness remained in Naruto and observed the world through Naruto. t=Those two Minato's don't have the same experience

Sasuke didn't release the Orochimaru that was sealed in the gourd.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 12, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Firstly, we don't know when those 3 snakes were created, they could have been created prior to the stabbing. And those snakes certainly weren't Orochimaru.



They were attached to his 8 branches technique, the entity that was stabbed by Totsuka.

Implicitly these snakes should have also been sealed, yet were not.....



> we have seen Kabuto hide himself in snakes and then remerge. Orochimaru said himself his return was directly facilitated by Sasuke, which means he never substituted out of the Totsuka gourd or escaped.



That's not the point.

The fact that Orochimaru could be brought back *without interacting with Totsuka* proves that Totsuka does not seal you away for all time, invalidating the databook hyperbole.



> Orochimaru 's consciousness was split among the various curse marks he had, and he is able to view the world through those curse marks, and his body can be reconsistiuted from any of those curse marks.



Oh so if you are a being of divided consciousness you can bypass Totsuka's ability to seal you?

Again, another limitation to Totsuka disproving it's hyperbole.



> Its no different than the chakra that Minato stored in Baby Naruto that allowed Naruto to meet with both Minato and Kushina later in life.The real Minato was trapped in death Reaper Seal, while apart of Minato's chakra and consciousness remained in Naruto and observed the world through Naruto. t=Those two Minato's don't have the same experience



I don't understand this argument?

Nobody said death reaper seal had no limits. Comparing Totsuka (a sealing technique being argued as having no limits) to a sealing technique *known to be limited* is inadvertently admitting Totsuka is limited.

Your comparison is invalid if you believe Totsuka has no limit. Your comparison can only be valid if you believe Totsuka *has a limit*. If you believe it has a limit then we can move on from this aspect.



> Sasuke didn't release the Orochimaru that was sealed in the gourd.



The fact that Oro *could not be completely sealed* is the point. It establishes a limitation to Totsuka's sealing.

Totsuka has proven to fail at sealing Oro:

Physically. The white snakes escaped from the 8 branshes technique.

Metaphysically. It was incapable of sealing Oro's consciousness.

We have established it has a limitation. We have established it needs time to seal. The question of Totsuka having limits is answered - yes it does. Now the question is how does this apply to Kaguya?


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 13, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I don't understand this argument?
> 
> Nobody said death reaper seal had no limits. Comparing Totsuka (a sealing technique being argued as having no limits) to a sealing technique *known to be limited* is inadvertently admitting Totsuka is limited.
> 
> Your comparison is invalid if you believe Totsuka has no limit. Your comparison can only be valid if you believe Totsuka *has a limit*. If you believe it has a limit then we can move on from this aspect.





ShinAkuma said:


> Oh so if you are a being of divided consciousness you can bypass Totsuka's ability to seal you?
> 
> Again, another limitation to Totsuka disproving it's hyperbole.


For the first quote:

Sorry about that, to clarify, my point about the DRS wasn't to highlight another of one of its weaknesses. Its a good observation though that even after sealing Yin Kurama, Minato was still able to maneuver, take a fatal blow in the chest, seal Yang kurama, part of his chakra/consciousness as well as Kushina's all before the Death Reaper Seal was able to seal the remainder of his soul away. Hold on to this for later.

Rather, my point was to highlight examples to use as reference for the concept of soul partitioning in the Narutoverse. Minato's feat of sealing his chakra in Naruto could have been done without him ever using the Death Reaper Seal, just illustrating that what Orochimaru did wasn't something only achieved by him.  But unavoidably, much of the evidence for soul partitioning comes from feats that involved the Death Reaper Seal.

For starters, the whole existence of Yin and Yang Kurama. They are both Kurama, two fragments of a now divided consciousness and chakra, but they are two independent beings now each with different experiences. They are basically copies of the same being, and were sealed into two different people. And yet they can also recombine and become a unified consciousness again.

Then there is the fact that Hiruzen's shadow clones each had their own souls that entered the death reaper seal along with Tobirama and Hashirama back in part one. the OG Hiruzen's soul only entered the reaper after it took Orochimaru's soul, so there were 3 separate  but identical Hiruzen souls. And even after Orochimaru was "revived" by Sasuke, the soul of his arms remained in the reaper, up until Oro cut the reaper's belly open. So more evidence that souls can be distinct, fragmented elements  originating from one being.

 Lastly, we saw that the Minato that was brought back from the Death Reaper Seal was very unaware of his son's progress, not knowing he had SM, not knowing sharp his quick thinking had become, etc.... these were all things that the other Minato sealed in Naruto was aware of during the Pain Arc.

Now, Totsuka only seals/sucks the soul contained in * the being it pierces though*, that was a limit that was defined in both manga and databook. Orochimaru, already had pieces of his chakra and his consciousness in at least one other person, who was not pierced by Totsuka (Anko), prior to his final battle with Itachi.

 Further, we know the fragment of Orochimaru's soul that was in Sasuke got sealed away completely because Sasuke's curse mark seal was removed (which contains Orochimaru's chakra + consciousness) when Totsuka pulled him out. The same thing happens when Orochimaru is extracted from Anko, her curse mark disappears. Plus,  he was unable to resurface (via oral rebirth or similiar means) after Totsuka sealed him, which only serves as further evidence that his body (and the soul within) was sealed. If he really reversed the sealing process, then the smart thing to do would have been to remain in Sasuke, because as long as he is in Sasuke, his prized poesession is still in reach, and already severely exhausted.  But the lack of the curse mark on Sasuke post Totsuka rules this out.

For the second quote:

Well, just like in Harry Potter, all of Voldemort's horcruxes had to be destroyed. So if Itachi truly wanted to put Orochimaru down for good without a chance of him "coming back", he needed to use the totsuka Blade on each and every curse mark seal of heaven that Orochimaru created or anyone or anything containing his senjutsu chakra. Most characters don't have their soul partitioned across the globe. But Totsuka would limitlessly seal each and everyone of Orochimaru's horcruxes without fail, if put to the task. The Orochimaru that Sasuke " revived" wasn't  shown or stated to have been restored from the Totsuka gourd. There is zero evidence of that, and Orochimaru's original arm souls also didn't magically come back either to him when Sasuke " brought him back", which tells us that once a soul is removed it doesn't necessarily come back unless you release it from wherever it was moved to.  All the evidence suggests that this "revived" Orochimaru is really  a copy, equivalent to the Minato that was placed in Naruto's seal.  I see no evidence that would suggest otherwise.  Even if in his version memories are shared across all the divided consciousnesses, then the orochimaru stored in Anko (call that one Ankomaru ) would still be up to date on everything that happened to the Oro that was in Sasuke (Sasumaru ) at the very least up until the moment Sasumaru was sealed. But I find it unlikely that's how it works, because he had to directly extract and reclaim his senjutsu chakra that was stored in Kabuto to gain access to Kabuto's intel, which means in reality he was reabsorbing the consciousness that was stored in Kabuto and watching from within Kabuto. So, not totally sure, but I will look more into this later, as I won't be able to look at Naruto stuff until early next week.

Combine with: the other mountain of evidence, like Itachi's confidence in the blade's ability to seal Oro ( the whole purpose of his prolonged fight with Sasuke was to seal Oro using Totsuka, and the moment it landed he was sure of his victory), and the anxiety that appeared on Orochimaru's face when he realized what he was stabbed by, despite  being extremely arrogant about the attack not doing much physical damage just a moment before, plus as I said before, the fact that Orochimaru couldn't return without a third party  using one of his horcruxes.
So that pretty much is why i think we are looking at what is _*technically a duplicate of Orochimaru.*_




ShinAkuma said:


> They were attached to his 8 branches technique, the entity that was stabbed by Totsuka.
> 
> Implicitly these snakes should have also been sealed, yet were not.....



What is the importance of them being attached? They are still separate living entities that could be killed by Amaterasu (the real Orochimaru would troll with Oral Rebirth).... and none of the three snakes were pierced so why would they be sealed?  Each of those snakes had its  own soul/consciousness, as each snake had to be killed independently of the other snakes. 





ShinAkuma said:


> We have established it has a limitation. We have established it needs time to seal. The question of Totsuka having limits is answered - yes it does. Now the question is how does this apply to Kaguya?



Now, recall the instance from above where Minato was able to do things even after sealing Kurama via DRS.

For the Totsuka blade ,  It also  takes time to seal, but based on the instances  with Nagato and Orochimaru,  the sealing process  immediately eliminates the target's ability to do anything relevant  but talk, and the victims begin deforming rather rapidly after they are pierced. The Blade basically has  a better version of a feat performed Kotoamatuskami, in that it completely and instantly overwrote Kabuto's strongest level of Edo Tensei mind control, which is clearly a powerful ninjutsu spell of sorts acting in the victim's body, upon piercing. And as I said in a previous post, it's heavily implied in any case that even the rinnegan was powerless to do anything, which is why I also find it highly unlikely that Sasumaru did anything at all that would suggest he was able to troll the totsuka blade's sealing.

 Kaguya would be able to talk, since Totsuka isn't able to prevent that. And to my knowledge, she doesn't have any preexisting horcruxes that would allow her to be "revived" at a later date, so the 'limitation' that Orochimaru was able to exploit is not something Kaguya would be able to do to my knowledge.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 13, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> For the first quote:
> 
> Sorry about that, to clarify, my point about the DRS wasn't to highlight another of one of its weaknesses. Its a good observation though that even after sealing Yin Kurama, Minato was still able to maneuver, take a fatal blow in the chest, seal Yang kurama, part of his chakra/consciousness as well as Kushina's all before the Death Reaper Seal was able to seal the remainder of his soul away. Hold on to this for later.



You intention isn't relevant. The fact that it does have limitations and you are making a *lateral comparison to a weapon you are arguing has no limits* is the relevant part.



> Rather, my point was to highlight examples to use as reference for the concept of soul partitioning in the Narutoverse.



Sure.

Totsuka cannot seal those with partitioned souls. That is a _limitation_. One that you are admitting to.

The point here isn't why/how Totsuka failed. It's that *it did*. Invalidating the no limits interpretation. We know for a fact Totsuka has limits.



> For the second quote:
> 
> Well, just like in Harry Potter, all of Voldemort's horcruxes had to be destroyed. So if Itachi truly wanted to put Orochimaru down for good without a chance of him "coming back", he needed to use the totsuka Blade on each and every curse mark seal of heaven that Orochimaru created or anyone or anything containing his senjutsu chakra. Most characters don't have their soul partitioned across the globe. But Totsuka would limitlessly seal each and everyone of Orochimaru's horcruxes without fail, if put to the task. The Orochimaru that Sasuke " revived" wasn't  shown or stated to have been restored from the Totsuka gourd. There is zero evidence of that, and Orochimaru's original arm souls also didn't magically come back either to him when Sasuke " brought him back", which tells us that once a soul is removed it doesn't necessarily come back unless you release it from wherever it was moved to.  All the evidence suggests that this "revived" Orochimaru is really  a copy, equivalent to the Minato that was placed in Naruto's seal.  I see no evidence that would suggest otherwise.  Even if in his version memories are shared across all the divided consciousnesses, then the orochimaru stored in Anko (call that one Ankomaru ) would still be up to date on everything that happened to the Oro that was in Sasuke (Sasumaru ) at the very least up until the moment Sasumaru was sealed. But I find it unlikely that's how it works, because he had to directly extract and reclaim his senjutsu chakra that was stored in Kabuto to gain access to Kabuto's intel, which means in reality he was reabsorbing the consciousness that was stored in Kabuto and watching from within Kabuto. So, not totally sure, but I will look more into this later, as I won't be able to look at Naruto stuff until early next week.
> 
> ...



I don't think you understand what's going on here.

Your premise is predicated on the assumption that the databook is making a truth statement in relation to Totsuka. However the actions of Totsuka within the manga *show that to be false* at least in relation to Itachi's ability with Totsuka.

Did Totsuka seal Oro for all time? No. Did Tosuka seal Oro completely physically? No. Does Totsuka allow for actions even after being pierced? Yes.

Offering esoteric excuses as to why Totsuka didn't live up to the hype *does not invalidate anything I have pointed out.*

The obvious conclusion is Totsuka can be bypassed/defeated. The only question now is Kaguya the person to do it?

The likely answer is yes. If you can talk, be immune via divided consciousness or have parts of your self slither away then a being of Kaguya's magnitude would likely bypass it in any number of ways. Totsuka couldn't even seal instantly regular kage tiers, who were also able to take action after being hit. It's neither logical or likely that somebody of Kaguya's power, which is hilariously above Oro and Nagato, would be helpless against this weapon.


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 13, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> You intention isn't relevant. The fact that it does have limitations and you are making a *lateral comparison to a weapon you are arguing has no limits* is the relevant part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




@bold part

This is some big nonsense. You are trying to invalidate what Zetsu says. What Zetsu says is that it seals everything it pierces. Not that it seals everything that looks similar to what it pierces or shares the same name. Like what is wrong with you?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 13, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> @bold part
> 
> This is some big nonsense. You are trying to invalidate what Zetsu says. What Zetsu says is that it seals everything it pierces. Not that it seals everything that looks similar to what it pierces or shares the same name. Like what is wrong with you?



This was already disproven.

Zetsu said It seals everything it pierces *for all time*.

It doesn't seal everything it pierces because PARTS OF ORO'S 8 BRANCHES ESCAPED. Durrrrr

It also didn't seal Oro's consciousness FOR ALL TIME because Oro is back.

Did it seal Oro's body? Most of him. Did it seal Oro's mind. No.

If the argument is it can't seal X for X reason THEN THAT IS A FUCKING LIMITATION. Zetus words were disproven OUT OF THE GATE.

Go be desperate somewhere else.


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 13, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> This was already disproven.
> 
> Zetsu said It seals everything it pierces *for all time*.
> 
> ...



You are reaching so hard it is funny and sad at the same time.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 13, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are reaching so hard it is funny and sad at the same time.


 
Top 10 Itachi.

I can cut your desperation with a Totsuka blade.


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 13, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Top 10 Itachi.
> 
> I can cut your desperation with a Totsuka blade.



You can cut whatever you want I don't care.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> You intention isn't relevant. The fact that it does have limitations and you are making a *lateral comparison to a weapon you are arguing has no limits* is the relevant part.



Except that wasn't the main point. The point was that souls can be partitioned into separate entities. RDS has nothing to do with that. Minato can make a copy of his consciousness and seal it in another person just like Orochimaru does.




ShinAkuma said:


> Sure.
> 
> Totsuka cannot seal those with partitioned souls. That is a _limitation_. One that you are admitting to.
> 
> The point here isn't why/how Totsuka failed. It's that *it did*. Invalidating the no limits interpretation. We know for a fact Totsuka has limits.



No it doesn't invalidate its hype. Totsuka seals *what it pierces* and it sealed the *copy* of Orochimaru that it pierced....  What you are saying makes no sense. Totsuka's 'limit' is that it can't pierce what it didn't even attack? That's obvious. Totsuka didn't fail at its job. It sealed away the copy of Orochimaru that was inside Sasuke. Its' job isn't to seal what it doesn't pierce. Like I said, once a consciousness is divided the two entities are distinct. Attacking Yin Kurama or sealing Yin Kurama has nothing to with attacking or sealing Yang Kurama. The entities are now independent. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Did Totsuka seal Oro for all time? No. Did Tosuka seal Oro completely physically? No. Does Totsuka allow for actions even after being pierced? Yes.



It sealed the copy of Orochimaru it pierced for all time
It sealed the copy of Orochimaru it pierced physically for all time.
It allowed the victims  to talk, think, nothing more. There is a reason why Itachi specifically said he was waiting for Oro to emerge. Simply sealing the 8 hydra heads or the random fodder snakes does nothing because those aren't Orochimaru. Sealing them or decapitating them does nothing to Oro. These are all independent entities.... Being physically attached =/= having the same soul or consciousness. Orochimaru and the hydra were melting as they were being sealed, because they were actually pierced, not the 3 random fodder snakes. 





ShinAkuma said:


> The obvious conclusion is Totsuka can be bypassed/defeated. The only question now is Kaguya the person to do it?
> 
> The likely answer is yes. If you can talk, be immune via divided consciousness or have parts of your self slither away then a being of Kaguya's magnitude would likely bypass it in any number of ways. Totsuka couldn't even seal instantly regular kage tiers, who were also able to take action after being hit. It's neither logical or likely that somebody of Kaguya's power, which is hilariously above Oro and Nagato, would be helpless against this weapon.



Talking literally only means that the victim has functional vocal cords and a functional brain. The victims were clearly unable to do anything ninjutsu wise. Even under RDS, Orochimaru could talk yet not cast ninjutsu. So it doesn't relate. 

Being unable to seal instantly means nothing, because victims were shown to be unable to do anything to stop the sealing process. The sealing process could take 100 years for all I care, doesn't mean they are able to counter or reverse the effects of the sealing. And mind you, Totsuka instantly stopped Kabuto's mind control over Nagato, so it clearly has effects on its victim that happen instantly


You have offered zero proof of Kaguya being able to counter the blade, only speculation based on power differential between herself and Oro/Nagato, when power difference was shown not to matter in the slightest.  Edo Nagato was massively stronger than Orochimaru and it did nothing to help him, especially with V2 Bee chakra powering him.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 17, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Except that wasn't the main point. The point was that souls can be partitioned into separate entities. RDS has nothing to do with that. Minato can make a copy of his consciousness and seal it in another person just like Orochimaru does.



The difference is Oro is Oro. It's not an echo of him or a recording or whatever.

The Oro that was released is not a distinct entity from the one who was sealed. He has the same memories and soul as the Oro who was sealed. They are the same person.



> No it doesn't invalidate its hype.



Yes it does.

The hype is "sealed for ALL TIME". That is *proven to be untrue*. It doesn't matter that you have an elaborate excuse for it, the facts are the facts. Totsuka is said to seal mind and body for all time, yet we know this is not the case.

Yes you have reasons for it but that doesn't change the fact that the no limits hype is proven to have *limits*.



> It sealed the copy of Orochimaru it pierced for all time



Who said it was a copy?



> It sealed the copy of Orochimaru it pierced physically for all time.



Where do you get this copy nonsense from? Oro was not a copy, he simply transcends physical limitations via the curse seal. 



> It allowed the victims  to talk, think, nothing more.



It allowed Oro's snakes from his hydra tech to escape.



> There is a reason why Itachi specifically said he was waiting for Oro to emerge. Simply sealing the 8 hydra heads or the random fodder snakes does nothing because those aren't Orochimaru. Sealing them or decapitating them does nothing to Oro. These are all independent entities.... Being physically attached =/= having the same soul or consciousness. Orochimaru and the hydra were melting as they were being sealed, because they were actually pierced, not the 3 random fodder snakes.



The snakes are a part of his overall form. They escaped.



> Talking literally only means that the victim has functional vocal cords and a functional brain. The victims were clearly unable to do anything ninjutsu wise. Even under RDS, Orochimaru could talk yet not cast ninjutsu. So it doesn't relate.



Oro isn't Kaguya. Comparing a regular dude who got some snakes to escape to the most powerful being ever seen is a bit of a stretch.



> Being unable to seal instantly means nothing,



Sure it does. It's a window of opportunity that Oro took advantage of.



> because victims were shown to be unable to do anything to stop the sealing process.



Oro couldn't stop the seal but had snakes escape and he wasn't actually sealed forever.



> The sealing process could take 100 years for all I care, doesn't mean they are able to counter or reverse the effects of the sealing. And mind you, Totsuka instantly stopped Kabuto's mind control over Nagato, so it clearly has effects on its victim that happen instantly



The sealing process wasn't stopped by *regular dudes*.

But it did fail to seal Oro as it was hyped to be capable off, which is the important point. Both his mind soul and body where revived without ever *interacting with the Totsuka*.



> You have offered zero proof of Kaguya being able to counter the blade,



I don't have to. My argument is that we can't know one way or the other.

However the fact that Totsuka failed to live up to the hype is telling.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 18, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The difference is Oro is Oro. It's not an echo of him or a recording or whatever.
> 
> The Oro that was released is not a distinct entity from the one who was sealed. He has the same memories and soul as the Oro who was sealed. They are the same person.



I'm gonna stop you right here, since this is the premise upon which you are drawing conclusions. Orochimaru only has the same memories because he reabsorbed the part of his consciousness that was stored in Kabuto. The part of himself that was stored in Kabuto had identical memories to the one that got stored in Sasuke, up until the moment the ritual started,  because the consciousnesses only got separated after Sasuke absorbed the Orochimaru that tried to take his body. After that, the consciousness stored in Kabuto also gain's Kabuto's memories. But all of the memories were reunited once Oro took back his senjutsu chakra from Kabuto. Before taking back the senjutsu chakra from Kabuto, he only knew what he knew from all of Anko's experiences. It's not surprising that he recognized Suigetsu and the others, because he knew about them before he even created curse mark seals in the first place, which is what divided his consciousness, or rather cloned it.

I already told you two posts go, once souls are partitioned in the narutoverse, the consciousnesses associated with them are identical but different. Hence why the Minato stored in Naruto had different memories than the one stored in RDS. Hence why Oro's arm souls didn't spontaneously return to him after Sasuke revived him, the souls are different, distinct, once partitioned. Yin and Yang Kurama re identical copies of each other, but different. Just because Itachi sealed one of Orochimaru's identical twins doesn't mean he would seal all of them, he can only seal what he pierces with the blade. Same thing with Hiruzen's shadow clones. Shadow clones are identical copies of the OG each with an identical but separate consciousness and soul, which is why each of them could seal tobirama and Hashi.

The point is, You have zero evidence that the Orochimaru that was sealed in the Totsuka Blade was released. All the evidence suys that he was sealed away for all eternity, while the copies of him that were stored in Kabuto and Anko were just fine because they had long been partitioned away. Hence, Totsuka did not fail. If totsuka had the opportunity to pierce Anko and Kabuto, then the Orochimuaru's contained in each of them would also be sealed. 



ShinAkuma said:


> It allowed Oro's snakes from his hydra tech to escape.



because they weren't pierced bud. The databook and Zetsu couldn't be more clear. it only seals what it PIERCES lol. By your logic, Itachi didn't even need to wait for Orochimaru or decapitate 7 of those snakes, he could have just pierced one of the hydras and everything would have been sealed. Each one of those snakes were independent life forms. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Sure it does. It's a window of opportunity that Oro took advantage of.



He didn't. Oro himself was powerless. His snakes which _*weren't pierced*_ took advantage of it. Big difference.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 18, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I'm gonna stop you right here, since this is the premise upon which you are drawing conclusions. Orochimaru only has the same memories because he reabsorbed the part of his consciousness that was stored in Kabuto.



Uh...no?

He gained *Kabuto's memories*. He already had all of his own.



Otherwise he wouldn't have a point in commenting it was Sasuke that revived him.

The only thing he took from Kabuto was his own chakra and Kabuto's intel. He never mentioned his "memories".



Everything you comment based on this false premise will be snipped.




> I already told you two posts go, once souls are partitioned in the narutoverse,



Look man repeating your fanfiction doesn't make it any more valid. I get you believe something, just don't expect me to believe.

You haven't established anything about your fanfiction. No evidence that RDS and the curse seal function the same. No evidence that Oro was a copy or whatever. Simply nothing but your speculation.

Speculation which amazingly enough *still proves that Totsuka has limits*.



> The point is, You have zero evidence that the Orochimaru that was sealed in the Totsuka Blade was released.



His mind was released, the same mind because we have no reason to assume it was different.



> All the evidence suys that he was sealed away for all eternity, while the copies of him that were stored in Kabuto and Anko were just fine because they had long been partitioned away.



You've provided no evidence of anything. Fanfiction isn't evidence.

You say one of these Oro's was a copy, yet nothing in the manga refers to him as such.

You say the sealed Oro is a distinct and unique entity to the Oro we currently have, yet nothing in the manga suggests such a thing.

I get you believe what you believe, but your belief isn't proof.



> Hence, Totsuka did not fail.



It did.

Failed to seal the snakes attached to the Hydra.

Failed to seal Oro for all time.



> If totsuka had the opportunity to pierce Anko and Kabuto, then the Orochimuaru's contained in each of them would also be sealed.



You haven't proven that these "other Oro's" are not the one Oro.



> because they weren't pierced bud.



The hype is the victim's consciousness would be sealed in a genjutsu dream for all time. Oro's was not.

It's great that you have a theory as to why, but even with your theory we see Totsuka has *limits* which is the point.



> The databook and Zetsu couldn't be more clear. it only seals what it PIERCES lol.



His mind was pierced, yet not sealed for all time.



> By your logic, Itachi didn't even need to wait for Orochimaru or decapitate 7 of those snakes, he could have just pierced one of the hydras and everything would have been sealed. Each one of those snakes were independent life forms.



Except that isn't my logic.



> He didn't. Oro himself was powerless. His snakes which _*weren't pierced*_ took advantage of it. Big difference.



They detached themselves from the larger entity showing you can flee the sealing process. Again this is another limit. If the physical body it stabs can break apart into smaller parts to escape the sealing process then it's a limit.

I don't even take issue with your theories about why Totsuka didn't seal, my point is that it did fail to seal. Now if that failure is because it can't seal a consciousness that transcends a single body, then that establishes a limit.  

The point is we know it has limits.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 18, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Uh...no?
> 
> He gained *Kabuto's memories*. He already had all of his own.
> 
> ...





ShinAkuma said:


> Look man repeating your fanfiction doesn't make it any more valid. I get you believe something, just don't expect me to believe.
> 
> You haven't established anything about your fanfiction. No evidence that RDS and the curse seal function the same. No evidence that Oro was a copy or whatever. Simply nothing but your speculation.
> 
> Speculation which amazingly enough *still proves that Totsuka has limits*.



We are explicitly told that Oro's senjutsu chakra contains parts of his consciousness, which were established to be able to view the world through their host as per Oro's statement about Anko and as per Minato's consciousness observing the world for 16 years through Naruto. 

He gained kabuto's memories because he absorbed the senjutsu chakra( and therefore consciousness) that was observing the world through Kabuto. 


Further, Yin Kurama also called Yang Kurama "me". Things get confusing when your consciousness have been divided into multiple copies, aren't they? 

We have seen multiple times that separated/duplicated consciousness of the same entity can exist. The 9 tailed beasts were created by separating the ten tails chakra nine ways. The nine tailed beasts themselves could also transfer pieces of their chakra and consciousness to naruto for example, each which persisted long after the full fledged beasts were sealed in the Gedo Mazou by Madara. Even Obito hijacked part of the one tails and 8 tails consciousness and put them in Naruto and he called upon them in RSM.
And we know separated consciousness can be rejoined, as seen with Yin and Yang Kurama.

 Minato's ability to transfer his chakra/consciousness is also independent of the RDS. He told Kushina that he was gonna seal part of her consciousness inside of Naruto before he even activated RDS. The RDS also works the same way. No reason to assume Orochimaru's works any different, when we saw that him being revived did nothing to free his arm souls that were stored in RDS. He still needed to go an open up the Reaper's stomach to gain his original arm souls back. That alone proves that the Orochumaru "revived by Sasuke" isn't the same Orochimaru that was sealed by Itachi, *because he had completely new arm souls (and arms) upon his revival. Hence, he is a copy*. It isn't fanfiction, its literally what we are shown.  If arm souls can be duplicated, why wouldn't consciousness be, especially when we are already shown that they can be? That's the whole basis of shadow clones, and why their experiences can be transfered back to the original after they poof, and why each one has its own soul as demonstrated clearly by Hiruzen. You have zero evidence that the piece of Oro's mind sealed by Totsuka was what was restored. All the evidence suggests otherwise in fact.

Totsuka has limits? YES, limits that were clearly defined. Doesn't mean it isn't invincible at what it is defined to be able to do. Everything it pierced through was sealed, canonically, for all time





ShinAkuma said:


> The hype is the victim's consciousness would be sealed in a genjutsu dream for all time. Oro's was not.
> 
> It's great that you have a theory as to why, but even with your theory we see Totsuka has *limits* which is the point.



That wasn't the hype. The hype is that souls it pierces are sucked out and sealed for all time. Orochimaru had other copies of his soul that weren't pierced, so what? Just because he has an identical twin doesn't mean they are the same  exact being.  




ShinAkuma said:


> They detached themselves from the larger entity showing you can flee the sealing process. Again this is another limit. If the physical body it stabs can break apart into smaller parts to escape the sealing process then it's a limit.



Yeah, but you aren't telling me anything new. Totsuka Blade only seals the souls it pierces through. The snakes may have been physically attached, but they were still separate entities with separate souls that weren't pierced through. We know this because killing one hydra didn't kill all the others. And going by your logic, Sasuke would have been sealed away too because he was also physically attached. But he wasn't. Why? because only Orochimaru (and his remaining hydra) were pierced and only their souls were tagged. Sasuke and the 3 fodder snakes could be detached because they weren't pierced through lol. If totsuka hit those 3 fodder snakes they would have been each sealed, and those snakes couldn't even defend themselves from Amaterasu. Like I told you, Orochimaru didn't do anything to counter the blade. His snakes doing things was independent of him. Life can persist long after their creators have died. Hashirama's cells persist and even have a mind of their own long after Hashirama's soul was sealed or sent the pure land, as they continued to grow into trees for example when used by Danzo, or the fact that all the trees we see around the hidden leaf are the descendants of the trees created from  Hashirama's chakra


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 18, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> We are explicitly told that Oro's senjutsu chakra contains parts of his consciousness, which were established to be able to view the world through their host as per Oro's statement about Anko and as per Minato's consciousness observing the world for 16 years through Naruto.
> 
> He gained kabuto's memories because he absorbed the senjutsu chakra( and therefore consciousness) that was observing the world through Kabuto.
> 
> ...



Dude....you just proved that the revived Oro is the same Oro and you just don't realize it.

The revived Oro comes from Anko's cursed seal. That cursed seal was given to Anko *before Oro had his arms sealed*. This "copy" should have full use of his arms, yet he doesn't. That means there is only *1 soul because the revived Oro's was missing his soul arms*.

This also means that Totsuka failed to seal Oro's soul for all time because they could just revive him via his cursed seal *soul and all*.

You also inadvertently proved that RDS is a superior sealing technique because *there is no bypass of the seal*. Oro arms remained sealed no matter what yet Oro's soul could be freed via cursed seal extraction when sealed via Totsuka.

RDS>Totsuka

Thanks homie.

I suppose the question now is are you willing to accept the implications of *your own logic*?



> Totsuka has limits? YES, limits that were clearly defined. Doesn't mean it isn't invincible at what it is defined to be able to do. Everything it pierced through was sealed, canonically, for all time



You just proved it can't seal a soul even as well as RDS.

Don't see how it works on Kaguya now.

Anyway the rest of your response is not relevant at this point.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 18, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Dude....you just proved that the revived Oro is the same Oro and you just don't realize it.
> 
> The revived Oro comes from Anko's cursed seal. That cursed seal was given to Anko *before Oro had his arms sealed*. This "copy" should have full use of his arms, yet he doesn't. That means there is only *1 soul because the revived Oro's was missing his soul arms*.
> 
> ...



I am willing to accept them, but I don't quite see how my own logic led to those implications, at least not yet. Maybe I missed something. But we actually have already been through this. There isn't only one soul. Minato's soul was split in two, so was Kushina's, so was each of the 9 bijuu at one point or another.   

Kurama's chakra was split by the RDS just like Oro's. The difference being, half of Kurama's soul in its entirety (not just its arms_) was sealed. So half of its consciousness, half of its chakra, half of its soul were sealed away and the other half placed in Naruto.  So the result is there are two copies of Kurama. And both Kuramas have a full,  functional set of head, body and  limbs.  

The difference with Oro that you missed is that Oro didn't seal entire copies of his entire soul, *only pieces of his consciousness (mind soul)*. We clearly see from the instance with Hiruzen that arm souls can be detached from your mind's soul, and the rest of your body's soul in general. There was only ever one copy of *his arm souls *and they were completely sealed away by Hiruzen. 

Totsuka removed the curse mark from Sasuke, so it means at the very least, the consciousness of Oro that was in Sasuke was sealed away. If it wasn't sealed, then Oro should have been able to use oral rebirth to escape, and wouldn't have ever needed third party help to "return"

The piece of his consciousness sealed in Anko was able to reconstruct a body using the flesh taken from Kabuto's body. Since this copy never had Oro's arm souls to begin with, it obviously would need to extract them directly from the reaper and absorb them in order to use the ninjutsu he needed. 

Thus, there is no evidence that the Orochimaru that was sealed by Totsuka was restored. I'm still waiting for you to prove this.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 18, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I am willing to accept them, but I don't quite see how my own logic led to those implications, at least not yet. Maybe I missed something. But we actually have already been through this. There isn't only one soul. Minato's soul was split in two, so was Kushina's, so was each of the 9 bijuu at one point or another.



There is only one soul in relation to Oro proven by the fact that the revived Oro also had bum arms and the sealed portion of his soul returned to him and not where ever Totsuka is. This shows that the soul that was revived is the soul that was RDS'd



> Kurama's chakra was split by the RDS just like Oro's. The difference being, half of Kurama's soul in its entirety (not just its arms_) was sealed. So half of its consciousness, half of its chakra, half of its soul were sealed away and the other half placed in Naruto.  So the result is there are two copies of Kurama. And both Kuramas have a full,  functional set of head, body and  limbs.



None of this is relevant.

The revived Oro was missing his arms, which by *your logic* he should not have been. If the soul is copied or partition or whatever, then the revived Oro should have full use of his arms because he would have been created *prior to Hiruzen sealing him*.

The fact he lacks his arms proves he is the same Oro we have always seen.



> The difference with Oro that you missed is that Oro didn't seal entire copies of his entire soul, *only pieces of his consciousness (mind soul)*. We clearly see from the instance with Hiruzen that arm souls can be detached from your mind's soul, and the rest of your body's soul in general. There was only ever one copy of *his arm souls *and they were completely sealed away by Hiruzen.



None of this is relevant. If the revived Oro was a copy he would not have the same affliction because he was copied at an earlier date.



> Totsuka removed the curse mark from Sasuke, so it means at the very least, the consciousness of Oro that was in Sasuke was sealed away. If it wasn't sealed, then Oro should have been able to use oral rebirth to escape, and wouldn't have ever needed third party help to "return"



None of this is relevant...again.

Nobody said anything about not being sealed.



> The piece of his consciousness sealed in Anko was able to reconstruct a body using the flesh taken from Kabuto's body. Since this copy never had Oro's arm souls to begin with, it obviously would need to extract them directly from the reaper and absorb them in order to use the ninjutsu he needed.



This is just wild desperation.

Oro's soul had the same affliction as totsuka Oro. That means it wasn't copied because why the fuck would the copy end up with the exact same disability? You can't just pull shit out of your ass and say he magically had the same disability because reasons. That is not supported anywhere in the manga.

There is only *1 soul* in regards to Oro. We know that because the single item that defines Oro's soul as unique is the sealed part via RDS. Totsuka failed to seal Oro's soul for all time.

It's that simple.



> Thus, there is no evidence that the Orochimaru that was sealed by Totsuka was restored.



Yes - Oro's soul is identical. It's not less or copied or whatever. It's the same. So identical that the missing piece returned to him. It didn't go to the genjutsu dimension, it went to him. Showing us the soul he has is the same soul that was RDS'd.

The implication is in Oro's case there is a single soul that was released without ever interacting with Totsuka.

Totsuka hype is busted.



> I'm still waiting for you to prove this.



I did two posts ago and have continued to do so.

You can either accept the logical implications here or go into some wild fanfiction in a desperate attempt to believe whatever it is your are pimping here.

Your choice.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 18, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> None of this is relevant.
> 
> The revived Oro was missing his arms, which by *your logic* he should not have been. If the soul is copied or partition or whatever, then the revived Oro should have full use of his arms because he would have been created *prior to Hiruzen sealing him*.
> 
> The fact he lacks his arms proves he is the same Oro we have always seen.



It doesn't actually. Ever since his arm souls were sealed away, he has been creating new arms left and right without any issue. Let's be clear, the revived Orochimaru also clearly had two  physical arms, just not his arm soul.  So clearly, you don't need the soul associated with a certain body part to recreate it. *Oro was only stated to have divided his mind, not his entire soul*. *We know that the mind soul can be separated from the body soul because no part of Oro's consciousness, legs, or other body parts were sealed by the reaper, only the souls in his arms, as stated and shown*. I repeat, only the soul associated with his mind was stated to have been copied into senjutsu chakra. And Hiruzen showed you can select parts of the soul to be removed when he specifically targeted Oro's arm souls, and left everything else alone. His arm souls on its own don't have a consciousness, and we know his consciousness was untouched because we see only his arms go bum, not any other part of his body. And We don't see a second Orochimaru in the Death Reaper seal either, like we saw for Kurama, and we surely didn't see any lingering Orochimaru after the Edo tensei was performed on the 4 previous hokages.

 You  have to first prove that Oro cloned his arm souls when he placed his senjutsu chakra into Anko for this counter-argument to be convincing. If Oro can recreate arms without their respective souls, then it means he can reasonably recreate any body part. Which means all he would need is a copy of his consciousness in order to do this, which is a box we already checked off. The second piece is of the pie is just some flesh (which he got from Kabuto). So, of course, he would have the same disability if the arm souls are necessary for him to use ninjutsu. Creating new arms wouldn't fix that issue. We have no reason to believe that his arm souls were cloned into Anko when he created her Curse Mark. 

Further, we know Oro doesn't have one soul/consciousness because he had to reabsorb the consciousness he had in Kabuto in order to gain the experiences/knowledge that it had from observing Kabuto's actions starting from the day Kabuto absorbed Oro's remains. That means there are multiple, different copies, than can be rejoined together through direct contact. 




ShinAkuma said:


> This is just wild desperation.



Lol there is no desperation.  I mean, I'll say it again.  Itachi used this blade with the active goal of stripping Orochimaru from Sasuke, specifically. He was confident it would work, and he obviously had knowledge of Oro's abilities. Orochimaru showed anxiety when he identified the blade, the complete opposite of the arrogance he was showing just before. Black Zetsu hyped the blade. Databook hyped the blade. we literally have all  4 possible perspectives of people who are all knowledgable on the blade : the user of the blade, the victim of the blade, third party spectator, and then the author.   

I give the manga and databook the benefit of the doubt first. The fact I can introduce an alternate theory that fits with all the existing evidence we have shows that we have no reason to* assume* that your theory is true.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 18, 2019)

What this wild rubbish? LMAO



ThirdRidoku said:


> It doesn't actually. Ever since his arm souls were sealed away, he has been creating new arms left and right without any issue.



He could never use Edo Tensei with his arms sealed. That's the point of getting his arms back.



> Let's be clear, the revived Orochimaru also clearly had two  physical arms, just not his arm soul.



He's always had two arms.

WTF?



> So clearly, you don't need the soul associated with a certain body part to recreate it.



Literally non sequitur. At no point was this ever argued.

If you're going to be desperate at least try to make sense.



> *Oro was only stated to have divided his mind, not his entire soul*. *We know that the mind soul can be separated from the body soul because no part of Oro's consciousness, legs, or other body parts were sealed by the reaper, only the souls in his arms, as stated and shown*. I repeat, only the soul associated with his mind was stated to have been copied into senjutsu chakra.



Are you really so desperately married to this Itachi wank that you are oblivious to what you  are arguing?

Ok sure, he didn't copy his soul into the cursed seal. Yeah that's fine.

Guess what that means? THE REVIVED ORO IS REAL BECAUSE HE HAS A SOUL.

Durrrrr

Or are you arguing that the soul associated with his mind? (pure fucking fanfiction but whatever, your logic is so poor it doesn't matter)

Great. Let's go with that then.

Guess whaaaaaaat? The soul associated with his mind was poured into Anko's cursed seal BEFORE HE WAS SEALED BY HIRUZEN.

There is no reason for this Oro to be lacking in arms.

Now I'm sure rather than just admit you're wrong you will spew some wild fanfiction combining multiple theories like a partial soul and a partial seal or some pick and choose nonsense.



> And Hiruzen showed you can select parts of the soul to be removed when he specifically targeted Oro's arm souls, and left everything else alone. His arm souls on its own don't have a consciousness, and we know his consciousness was untouched because we see only his arms go bum, not any other part of his body. And We don't see a second Orochimaru in the Death Reaper seal either, like we saw for Kurama, and we surely didn't see any lingering Orochimaru after the Edo tensei was performed on the 4 previous hokages.



Amazingly irrelevant word salad.

Literally none of this is relevant to the point.

Amazing.



> You  have to first prove that Oro cloned his arm souls when he placed his senjutsu chakra into Anko for this counter-argument to be convincing.



What the fuck are you babbling about rofl?

You have literally proven nothing and I am simply using your wacked out logic.

You're choices are Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal, or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal.

More incoming desperation I'm sure.



> If Oro can recreate arms without their respective souls, then it means he can reasonably recreate any body part.



Like literal nonsense. Nobody said Oro couldn't have arms with his arms sealed. We know he kept them even in part 1. His ability to use ninjutsu is what sealing his arms handicapped, hence needing his fractured soul back in order to cast Edo Tensei.

Good lord this logic is a mess.



> Which means all he would need is a copy of his consciousness in order to do this, which is a box we already checked off. The second piece is of the pie is just some flesh (which he got from Kabuto). So, of course, he would have the same disability if the arm souls are necessary for him to use ninjutsu. Creating new arms wouldn't fix that issue. We have no reason to believe that his arm souls were cloned into Anko when he created her Curse Mark.



Simply an unrelated tangent that addresses literally nothing.

Wonderful.



> Further, we know Oro doesn't have one soul/consciousness because he had to reabsorb the consciousness he had in Kabuto in order to gain the experiences/knowledge that it had from observing Kabuto's actions starting from the day Kabuto absorbed Oro's remains. That means there are multiple, different copies, than can be rejoined together through direct contact.



More absolutely nothing to do with any of the points.

Reposting until you understand what is actually being discussed.

You're choices are Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal, or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal.



> Lol there is no desperation.



LOL

Dude you're so desperate that you are literally making relentless irrelevant points.

This is what cognitive dissonance looks like.



> I mean, I'll say it again.  Itachi used this blade with the active goal of stripping Orochimaru from Sasuke, specifically. He was confident it would work, and he obviously had knowledge of Oro's abilities. Orochimaru showed anxiety when he identified the blade, the complete opposite of the arrogance he was showing just before. Black Zetsu hyped the blade. Databook hyped the blade. we literally have all  4 possible perspectives of people who are all knowledgable on the blade : the user of the blade, the victim of the blade, third party spectator, and then the author.



Absolutely nothing here has anything to do with anything.

it's like something snapped in your mind and you can't offer relevant points.

My apologies.



> I give the manga and databook the benefit of the doubt first.



Except of course when the manga interferes with what you want to believe.

We see revived Oro with the same soul that was sealed. For you through the power of relentless and incoherent mental gymnastics we can ignore the most obvious and logical interpretations.

Cool.



> The fact I can introduce an alternate theory that fits with all the existing evidence we have shows that we have no reason to* assume* that your theory is true.



You haven't tho. Wild fanfiction with no logical consistency may _qualify_ as a theory, but it sure doesn't make any sense.

There's a thing called occams razor. You should look into it.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Or are you arguing that the soul associated with his mind? (pure fucking fanfiction but whatever, your logic is so poor it doesn't matter)
> 
> Great. Let's go with that then.
> 
> ...



What are you talking about? Hiruzen literally shows us that certain parts of a soul can be removed/ or duplicated ? Why can't Oro do the same? Oro's soul consciousness was never sealed in RDS even though his arm souls were. That means there is such a thing as a mind soul. his mind soul was duplicated whenever he put his senjutsu chakra into another being. That does not inherently mean he cloned the entirety of his soul, that was never stated. Only his consciousness was stated to be stored in these horcruxes. And we literally see him oral rebirthing new arms out of thin air on a regular basis. 

We also saw that in order to clone consciousness, you must speficially copy the mind soul. The entirety of Kurama's soul was duplicated when half of its soul in its entirety was sealed in RDS. These two examples debunk your premise.

*Further, we saw that the different consciousness that Oro has created aren't one in the same, or he wouldn't need to reabsorb the one that was present in Kabuto. So very obviously, the one in Sasuke =/= the one in  anko =/= the one in Kabuto. absorbing the one that was in Kabuto didn't give him back any functional arms either. Which just proves my theory that he never cloned anything except his soul's consciousness. He never cloned his arm souls or any part of his body's soul at all, only his mind soul.*




ShinAkuma said:


> You haven't tho. Wild fanfiction with no logical consistency may _qualify_ as a theory, but it sure doesn't make any sense.
> 
> There's a thing called occams razor. You should look into it.





ShinAkuma said:


> We see revived Oro with the same soul that was sealed. For you through the power of relentless and incoherent mental gymnastics we can ignore the most obvious and logical interpretations.



Actually, occam's razor on my side believe it or not. Kishimoto tells us through 4 sources that Orochimaru (at the least one that was in Sasuke and got pierced) was sealed away for all time. Databook 4 had the opportunity to update Totsuka's entry if a retcon had been added.  Totsuka and Itachi in general was portrayed above Oro, so of course I am gonna be skeptical as fuck if Oro supposedly escaped lmao. We are also shown that Oro's arm souls could be completely detached from the rest of his soul all together, so why can't he transfer only specific parts of his soul (like his consciousness) to targets of interest when we are shown and told him doing so? To believe your theory. We have to assume that Oro, BZ, Itachi, and Databook are all bumbling fools when they are all credible sources of information on this subject. Orochimaru's consciousness being released from the Totsuka gourd was never hinted or even stated. And even then, I already poked a gaping hole in your theory. I admit, you have pushed me to high diff so far in this debate , but my theory still fits with what we were already told, versus your's retcons everything lmao. 






ShinAkuma said:


> Are you really so desperately married to this Itachi wank that you are oblivious to what you are arguing?



lol is it really wank when BZ ( who knows Kaguya intimiately btw) considers this tool invincible? At this rate, Nagato can be released from the gourd too going by this logic. I wonder why Kabuto (who also knows of the blade) was so upset when Nagato was sealed by it?


----------



## Onyx Emperor (Dec 19, 2019)

Totsuka can seal anything, it can seal the earth, the sky, the space and even allah!
*Spoiler*: __ 



joke


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 19, 2019)

Not to mention @ShinAkuma 

Orochimaru never once thought to temporarily reasborb the parts of his soul that were in the Sound 5 in order to regain his arms. Not even the one that was in pre time skip Sasuke. He had curse mark seals in each of these targets that each would have possessed parts of Oro's consciousness that existed before the RDS incident. If he actually had cloned his arm souls into them, then he would have been able to absorb those arm souls and have access to his ninjutsu. This thought never crossed his mind at any point. So that just provides more evidence of my theory. only copies of his mind soul was sealed in these targets, never the rest of his body.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 19, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> What are you talking about?



Logic and reason is what I'm talking about.

Apparently you like wilding out on fanfiction.



> Hiruzen literally shows us that certain parts of a soul can be removed/ or duplicated ? Why can't Oro do the same? Oro's soul consciousness was never sealed in RDS even though his arm souls were. That means there is such a thing as a mind soul. his mind soul was duplicated whenever he put his senjutsu chakra into another being. That does not inherently mean he cloned the entirety of his soul, that was never stated. Only his consciousness was stated to be stored in these horcruxes. And we literally see him oral rebirthing new arms out of thin air on a regular basis.



So prove Oro clones his soul then.

And why do you keep talking about his arms? NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT HIS PHYSICAL ARMS.

lol



> We also saw that in order to clone consciousness, you must speficially copy the mind soul.



Look man, your fanfiction is getting ridiculous.

Prove there is a "mind soul". Where in the manga or databook has this ever been referenced?



> The entirety of Kurama's soul was duplicated when half of its soul in its entirety was sealed in RDS. These two examples debunk your premise.



Prove Kurama has a soul.

Prove a soul was duplicated.

Prove why this duplicate was duplicated in whole even tho half was sealed. This is contrary to what we see RDS do.

*



			Further, we saw that the different consciousness that Oro has created aren't one in the same,
		
Click to expand...

*
No we didn't.
*



			or he wouldn't need to reabsorb the one that was present in Kabuto.
		
Click to expand...

*
Oro reabsorbed his chakra and Kabuto's intel. He never mentioned anything about a soul.
*



			So very obviously, the one in Sasuke =/= the one in  anko =/= the one in Kabuto. absorbing the one that was in Kabuto didn't give him back any functional arms either. Which just proves my theory that he never cloned anything except his soul's consciousness. He never cloned his arm souls or any part of his body's soul at all, only his mind soul.
		
Click to expand...

*
You haven't proven that a soul is duplicated. You also haven't proven why the wackiest nonsense of all - cloning his own soul, would result in him not cloning his arms.

Then you argue that a soul gets clones exactly (via Kurama) while simultaneously arguing that Oro didn't clones his soul entirely?

Your arguments are pure nonsense and rife with double standards.



> Actually, occam's razor on my side believe it or not.



No.

No it's not.

Occams razor doesn't support wild amounts of fanfiction.

Cloned souls, partial cloned souls, reabsorbing souls, fuck literally everything you offered is fanfiction.

That's not how occams razor works dude.



> Kishimoto tells us through 4 sources that Orochimaru (at the least one that was in Sasuke and got pierced) was sealed away for all time.



No he didn't.

We are never told Oro is sealed for all time. Hype statements are not specific to Oro. Don't conflate the two.



> Databook 4 had the opportunity to update Totsuka's entry if a retcon had been added.



There is nothing to retcon. We are shown Oro escaping.



> Totsuka and Itachi in general was portrayed above Oro, so of course I am gonna be skeptical as fuck if Oro supposedly escaped lmao.



And here is the problem - your so married to your idea of Itachi's portrayal that you can't even believe the manga showing us Oro escapes.



> We are also shown that Oro's arm souls could be completely detached from the rest of his soul all together, so why can't he transfer only specific parts of his soul (like his consciousness) to targets of interest when we are shown and told him doing so?



More arbitrary desperation.

So Oro duplicates his soul in Anko, but he juuuuuuust so happens to leave out his arms? LMAO

Nothing you say makes any sense.

The amount of cherry picking, fanfictioning and wank is off the charts here.



> To believe your theory. We have to assume that Oro, BZ, Itachi, and Databook are all bumbling fools when they are all credible sources of information on this subject.



No.

You believe what we are shown.

Oro escaping.



> Orochimaru's consciousness being released from the Totsuka gourd was never hinted or even stated.



Which is the entire point. Oro was released without ever interacting with Totsuka.



> And even then, I already poked a gaping hole in your theory.



Not only have you not poked any holes in anything, you have offered zero proof of your own theories.



> I admit, you have pushed me to high diff so far in this debate , but my theory still fits with what we were already told, versus your's retcons everything lmao.



Desperate wank personified.



> lol is it really wank when BZ ( who knows Kaguya intimiately btw) considers this tool invincible? At this rate, Nagato can be released from the gourd too going by this logic. I wonder why Kabuto (who also knows of the blade) was so upset when Nagato was sealed by it?



Oh good more double standards.

Black Zetsu is the authority all of a sudden, but when BZ tells us the sun and moon seal are the only things that can seal Kaguya....well we just ignore those.

LMAO

Keep going homie.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Not to mention @ShinAkuma
> 
> Orochimaru never once thought to temporarily reasborb the parts of his soul that were in the Sound 5 in order to regain his arms. Not even the one that was in pre time skip Sasuke. He had curse mark seals in each of these targets that each would have possessed parts of Oro's consciousness that existed before the RDS incident. If he actually had cloned his arm souls into them, then he would have been able to absorb those arm souls and have access to his ninjutsu. This thought never crossed his mind at any point. So that just provides more evidence of my theory. only copies of his mind soul was sealed in these targets, never the rest of his body.



Even more slippery slope double standards.

So Oro cloned his soul into Anko, without his arms of course for some wanked out  reason, but with the sound 5 he cloned none of his soul? So the curse seal only contains a part of Oro's soul when you want it too? Or maybe you think he cloned his soul into the curse seal but they all conveniently missing his arms, again for some wanked out reason. Wildly incoherent.

You are literally just spewing nonsense at this point.

You're choices are Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal, or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal.

Somehow you come up with "Oro copies his soul only sometimes and when he does he leaves out his arms because reasons, and Black Zetsu is the authority except when I don't want him to be and occams razor is secretly on my side even with my 67 points of unproven and irrelevant fanfiction".....

You're a mess dude,


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Prove Kurama has a soul.
> 
> Prove a soul was duplicated.
> 
> Prove why this duplicate was duplicated in whole even tho half was sealed. This is contrary to what we see RDS



Rofl. Death reaper seal sucks out souls  as per how it functions ?  what are you on about ? Hiruzen explanation wasnt enough for you ? Databook explanation not enough either ???  We literally see half of the entire kyuubi's soul being ripped out , creating yin kurama on Panel. Minato explicitly stated he couldn't seal all of it , so he settled for half, and it was better that way because konoha would still have access to its powers this way for miliitary purposes. And I literally showed you a scan of yin and yang kurama talking  to each other and yin kurama saying " it feels weird being asked for favours From MYSELF ". I.e they are copies of the same being each with half the chakra of the original. 

You seem to  not be understanding that minato ripped out half of everything in kurama 's case , whereas hiruzen ripped out ALL of oro's arm soul and NOTHING ELSE. Oro's concisousness was NOT sealed in the death resper seal.

That sets a clear precedent that the consciousness can be separated from the rest of your soul and vice versa, i.e partial souls can exist, full stop. 

You have zero evidence that Oro cloned his entire soul into his horcruxes. We are only explicitly told he sealed bits of his conciousness not his entire soul, yet I'm the one spewing fanfic ? 

There is also clear evidence he didnt clone his entire soul. He never reabsorbed the the senjutsu chakra he had in the sound 5 or sasuke , which all would have had copies of him PRIOR to the RDS incident with Hiruzen. If those copies of his consciousness also had full copies of his body soul, then he would have been able to get a copy of his original arm souls from any of those curse Mark's. Yet he never did so. Orochimaru is highly intelligent and desperate to get his arms back in any way  he could, even willing to force Tsunade to help him  , yet the idea of using his curse mark seals never struck him ever ?  Yeah , no. You could argue that he never thought of it but that's unlikely.  He had plenty of time to think it over and he was actively focused on the subject constantly ever since he lost his arm souls.


Further, when he was absorbed by sasuke in p2,  he obviously  recombined with the part of his consciousness that had been sealed in sasuke in the  part one- installed curse mark , again which by your logic should have had a fresh copy of his million dollar  , edo tensei casting arm souls. Yet when this oro was sealed by totsuka blade , we know sasuke curse mark was removed as well, yet this copy of orochimaru never had his original arm souls. Your counter argument  to my theory is thereby invalid. Oro objectively and factually didnt clone his arm souls into his targets when creating curse Mark's.




ShinAkuma said:


> Oh good more double standards.
> 
> Black Zetsu is the authority all of a sudden, but when BZ tells us the sun and moon seal are the only things that can seal Kaguya....well we just ignore those.
> 
> ...


 

Black zetsu never once said that, nice fanfiction though.  He said naruto and sasuke couldn't seal kaguya if they were separated , big difference. And he has no reason to tell them about the totsuka blade. He is a lying liar when it comes to his enemies and his pawns, objectively, or did you miss the part where he tricked Madara? And he said the ying yang seals have the ability to seal kaguya , not that it was the only seal that could do it. In the fight between itachi and sasuke he was a third party spectator used by kishimoto to explain lore and had no bias toward itachi or sasuke. In fact he knew itachi was a spy for konoha, and before Totsuka and yata were revealed he wasnt even sure who would win between itachi and sasuke after tsukuyomi ' flopped'. He is an objective, unbiased source in this context and had the resume to suggest that he  knows what he is talking about.
The author was outright speaking through the character in this case, as proven by him rehashing what zetsu said in an official databook. Nice try though.



ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> You believe what we are shown.
> 
> Oro escaping.



Lmao HOLD UP WITH THIS BS. Show me a scan of orochimaru escaping from the gourd. I'll wait. What we saw was oro coming out of anko. What we saw was that oro stores pieces of his mind in his senjutsu chakra. What we saw was oro taking back HIS OWN senjutsu chakra that kabuto stole from him, which is why he got kabuto intel, the same way he got anko intel from watching from inside her. We are already shown duplicated consciousness can be recombined , see yin and yang kurama. See shadow clones returning their memories to the original. Which then proves that oro  must reabsorb his other consciousness in order to reunify with them. Which shows that each oro that comes out of a curse mark is just a separate copy with different experienced unless they fuse with each other.

What I see is a copy of oro being extracted from anko. Your counterargument was debunked. You attempted to use my own logic against me , and I then countered your counter. 


ShinAkuma said:


> No he didn't.
> 
> We are never told Oro is sealed for all time. Hype statements are not specific to Oro. Don't conflate the two.


Actually we were. Black zetsu witnessed the blade sealing orochimaru and said it seals its victim for all time. Itachi was confident it would work. Databook also clearly shows you an image of the blade sealing orochimaru in the same breath as it says it seals its victim for all time. So excuse me for defaulting to what the manga and databook tells us. The manga nor databook ever said that orochimaru escaped from the gourd. Rather, it shows us a copy of him being restored. Provide a proper counter argument and I promise to divorce my "marriage to itachi's portrayal "


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 19, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Rofl. Death reaper seal sucks out souls  as per how it functions ?



It's one of it's functions.

It also seals chakra.

So provide evidence that Kurama has a soul.

Moving along.



> You seem to  not be understanding that minato ripped out half of everything in kurama 's case ,



Yes half of the chakra yin and yang.



> whereas hiruzen ripped out ALL of oro's arm soul and NOTHING ELSE. Oro's concisousness was NOT sealed in the death resper seal.



Yes his soul, which now is unique and we can use to identify the real Oro with. IE: The revived Oro is the same as the RDS Oro.



> That sets a clear precedent that the consciousness can be separated from the rest of your soul and vice versa, i.e partial souls can exist, full stop.



Nobody is arguing against transcendent consciousness. You keep being as non sequitur as possible.



> You have zero evidence that Oro cloned his entire soul into his horcruxes.



This isn't Harry Potter. There are no horcruxes.

And it's *your premise that Oro cloned any part of his soul* not mine. I simply exposed the gaping flaws in your logic.



> We are only explicitly told he sealed bits of his conciousness not his entire soul, yet I'm the one spewing fanfic ?



Soul and consciousness are not the same thing.



> There is also clear evidence he didnt clone his entire soul.



You haven't provided any evidence.

Prove something you are fanfictioning about.

Can a soul be cloned?

Does Oro clone his soul?

Provide proof.



> He never reabsorbed the the senjutsu chakra he had in the sound 5 or sasuke , which all would have had copies of him PRIOR to the RDS incident with Hiruzen.



Anko is a copy of Oro prior to RDS.



> If those copies of his consciousness also had full copies of his body soul, then he would have been able to get a copy of his original arm souls from any of those curse Mark's. Yet he never did so.



Then obviously they had no soul.

There is no reason for Oro to clone a soul without arms. This sad excuse for a debate is just you wanking fanfiction desperately trying to hold on to some wacked out unproven premise.



> Further, when he was absorbed by sasuke in p2,  he obviously  recombined with the part of his consciousness that had been sealed in sasuke in the  part one- installed curse mark , again which by your logic should have had a fresh copy of his million dollar  , edo tensei casting arm souls. Yet when this oro was sealed by totsuka blade , we know sasuke curse mark was removed as well, yet this copy of orochimaru never had his original arm souls. Your counter argument  to my theory is thereby invalid. Oro objectively and factually didnt clone his arm souls into his targets when creating curse Mark's.



Ok so now you are proving that Oro's soul wasn't actually sealed into his cursed mark.

Back to square 1:

You're choices are Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal, or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal.




> Black zetsu never once said that, nice fanfiction though.  He said naruto and sasuke couldn't seal kaguya if they were separated , big difference.



This was already debunked by @WorldsStrongest

Snip the rest.



> Lmao HOLD UP WITH THIS BS. Show me a scan of orochimaru escaping from the gourd.



He escaped via his curse seal, which is worse because it proves Totsuka is incapable of sealing him for all time as per the hype.

That's the entire fucking point.



> What I see is a copy of oro being extracted from anko.



With the one real soul, that was supposedly sealed via Totsuka.



> Your counterargument was debunked. You attempted to use my own logic against me , and I then countered your counter.



No you're clowning it up with fanfiction and desperate nonsense.



> Actually we were. Black zetsu witnessed the blade sealing orochimaru and said it seals its victim for all time.



And then Oro escapes via his curse seal.

All time sealing is debunked.

You're choices are Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal, or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 19, 2019)

Why the fuck is this thread still ongoing?

Team Itachis baggage handlers have no evidence at all to substantiate their claim

There is no room for discussion here at all

their entire fucking stance boils down to 

"Well I mean its not like we ever saw Itachi tag Kaguya and FAIL to seal her! Until you give me that, its obviously super possible and basically canon fact at this point! So there!"

Meanwhile it couldnt seal all of Yamata...

And its best feat is taking out Nagato who isnt even Biju tier...

And Kaguya is stated multiple times to only be vulnerable to Rikudo Ct even by Hagoromo who invented several sealing tools with better feats and hype than Totsuka...

Also stated by Kaguya herself

Stated by Rinnegan Sasuke who can use CT to seal 9 Biju at once which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any of Totsukas showings

Stated by RSM Naruto who HAS SEEN and SENSED Totsuka sealing Nagato and is capable of Magnet releasse seals that can seal Limbo clones thats ALSO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any of Totsukas showings

And stated by BZ who is the only dude who ever even talked about Totsuka ever...Still said Mommy > anything thats not Rikudo CT

This shit should have been locked months ago


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's one of it's functions.
> 
> It also seals chakra.
> 
> ...



 chakra has always been irremovably connected to the soul. Nagato was ripping out Naruto's soul, and Naruto said he was losing strength/stamina, which in turn means he was losing chakra. 
Every single time a soul has been removed in this manga the victim's chakra level dropped accordingly . That's the whole basis of Edo Tensei. When the Edo tensei jutsu was released by Itachi all the souls ( and thereby their chakra) left their Edo tensei bodies behind and reascended to the pure land.  The RDS inherently removes chakra because it removes the soul.  The soul removal is its function,  the chakra removal is directly related. Kurama has a soul because it has a living being with chakra and every living being with chakra has had a soul. Furthermore, we saw that as more of its chakra influences Naruto, the stronger Kurama's consciousness takes hold and the less control Naruto has. Chakra, consciousness, and the soul all clearly come as a package. RDS extracts souls, and we saw that it did just that to Kurama lol.


The consciousness is a soul because all Orochimaru needed was a piece of flesh in order to make a new body.





ShinAkuma said:


> You're choices are Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal, or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal.







Oro clearly states that placing his senjutsu chakra in Anko all those years ago caused part of his consciousness to be slipped into her. Viz translation also says the same thing. We know this is a duplicate because the OG  Oro has been continously walking about the world with Sasuke, Kabuto, the Sound 4, you name it, yet also simultaneously watching the world through Anko the entire time. He isn't in two places at once. We also know its a duplicate and that he cannot communicate with these duplicates or share experience without directly reabsorbing/merging, just based on this:



Oro also had a duplicate in sasuke's curse mark. This duplicate would have been observing Sasuke directly all these years. So the fact that the OG Orochimaru doesn't recognize the jutsu or know that Sasuke was coming for him a*t this precise moment *tells me that he cannot share information with his horcrux consciousnesses or vice versa, without directly reasborbing them. There are plenty more examples. We fail to see The OG Oro getting intel  from any of his other horcruxes, whether its any of the sound 4 or Kimimaro, while these curse marks were in play and scattered away from spatially. Each clone has its own unique experience. Each clone is different.

The OG Orochimaru had a copy of his consciousness in Sasuke's CM before Sasuke even had absorbed him.   We know this copy merged with the OG Oro when Sasuke  absorbed him, because only one Oro is seen emerging from Sasuke's Body When Itachi strips him of Orochimaru. The copy predates RDS, so it clearly should have a fresh copy of his soul, with his soul arms included. Yet the new, merged Oro, doesn't have useable arms for ninjutsu.

Your alternate theory makes no sense, as we already know that its impossible for the OG Orochimaru to insert himself into another horcrux remotely from a distance. Even after Sasuke "killed Oro", his copy in Anko still persisted all this time, continuing to gather intel from within Anko while Hebi Sasuke was out fighting Deidara and shit. And we know it was doing so independent of any of the other Orochimaru dopplegangers.  The copy in anko is the copy in anko, the OG Orochimaru was already sealed by Totsuka, as per canon.



ShinAkuma said:


> Then obviously they had no soul.
> 
> There is no reason for Oro to clone a soul without arms. This sad excuse for a debate is just you wanking fanfiction desperately trying to hold on to some wacked out unproven premise.



Actually, you're right on this point, it doesn't make any sense that he would clone a soul without arms. His arms were his most prized possession, which is why Hiruzen was sure to take them away when all else failed. His goal was to be timeless in every way possible. So that just helps solidify my modified argument now. Not a single copy of Oro had functional arm souls when SIX of those copies were created before the RDS incident. We know that each Oro is a unique copy. We know they can't share intel without remerging with one another.  But they're still probably linked in one way. Any permanent physical damage to one Oro's soul is also transfered to the other souls via quantum entanglement, simple. Such a concept already exists, we have seen Naruto's shadow clones have trouble focusing on gathering nature energy when too many other Shadow clones were present, proving a precedent that clones are linked in some ways:



We have  also seen at least one instance of  kurama's chakra in one clone causing pain in other clones of Naruto from a distance.



Lastly, we hear it directly from the creator of Shadow clones himself:



Either there is some kind of chakra linkage/quantum entanglement going on, or bad writing. Either way you explain it, I already proved that the Oro in Anko is just a clone, why it doesn't have its original arm soul is a separate issue. I proved that there CANNOT be only one Orochimaru consciousness.




ShinAkuma said:


> This was already debunked by @WorldsStrongest
> 
> Snip the rest.



He didn't debunk anything. I'll deal with him shortly though.




WorldsStrongest said:


> Meanwhile it couldnt seal all of Yamata...



It never tried to. Itachi's goal was to Seal Oro and remove Sasuke's CM, not waste time on fodder snakes. He waited for Oro to emerge because if he didn't he would have showed off Totsuka's sealing abilities too early (which is how Oro identified by the blade btw) and lose the element of surprise. Read the manga, and take context into account. The blade only seals what it pierces and it isn't that wide bud. Your ABC logic falls on its head.




WorldsStrongest said:


> And its best feat is taking out Nagato who isnt even Biju tier...



Plz, drop this fanfic. V2 Bee cloak contains Bijuu level of chakra. Nagato absorbs this chakra and never really loses it. Why?
V2 Bee cloak is comparable to V2 Ayy cloak which Karii  said is Bijuu level.

Now, you yourself said that V2 Bee cloak>>>> Kisame>>>> Nagato in chakra right? Nagato's strongest technique in Chibaku tensei is merely a fraction of his tiny ass uzumaki pools of chakra  ( admittedly a large fraction of it, but he could still cast it even after fighting all of Konoha and SM Naruto and using CST). A fraction of Nagato's chakra is literally a droplet of water in an ocean when compared to the fact that he added a V2 Bee cloak of chakra to his reserves. All those rinnegan techniques he used barely put a dent in his boosted reserves, and Edo tensei refilling his chakra makes it moot. His hair never returned to white from red and his body was never emaciated, again so we objectively know that he didn't expend this  V2 chakra in any significant capacity.





WorldsStrongest said:


> And Kaguya is stated multiple times to only be vulnerable to Rikudo Ct even by Hagoromo who invented several sealing tools with better feats and hype than Totsuka...
> 
> Also stated by Kaguya herself



Better feats because of plot based opportunity. Itachi was only ever put up against Oro and Nagato with intent to kill, so that's obviously the only feats we will get. Better hype? not at all. Hagoromo isn't the know it all of the verse, BZ knew things that Hagoromo didn't, and BZ was shown to know about the blade, not Hagoromo. Kaguya who didn't even know what transformation jutsu is just assumed to know about Totsuka now too? Give me a break. The databook actually speaks to Totsuka's hype and comes from the author himself.




WorldsStrongest said:


> Stated by Rinnegan Sasuke who can use CT to seal 9 Biju at once which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any of Totsukas showings



And? CT  has a bigger AOE, big surprise. Totsuka isn't even wider than Nagato's chest. Still doesn't stop it from sealing each of those bijuu if Itachi thrusts the blade through each of them though.







WorldsStrongest said:


> Stated by RSM Naruto who HAS SEEN and SENSED Totsuka sealing Nagato and is capable of Magnet releasse seals that can seal Limbo clones thats ALSO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any of Totsukas showings



Sensing and seeing =/= understanding. Madara is also a RSM user and he had to *consciously* analyze Sasuke's new teleportation technique over multiple tries just to START to understand its limitations.


Naruto failed to comprehend what Madara's limbo clone was. Hagoromo failed to understand that the juubi was his one and only mother. Where was their universal, innate, and 100 percent understanding of all things chakra in these instances? Databook clearly only means they are sensor types of the highest magnitude.

And lol, Naruto never sensed Totsuka in RSM btw, where did you get that fanfic from? There were clearly limits to his sensory abilities, as he couldn't sense Sasuke when he was pulled away to another dimension. And he only saw Totsuka in KCM, a mode that failed to even sense the invisible chameleon, so why would emotion sensing allow him to "sense and understand"  an artifact that has no emotions lol? It's like saying you can go into a room filled with objects blindfolded (KCM emotion sensing ), not see anything and therefore not know what was in the room, then 3 months later recalling the objects in the room with detailed descriptions just becasuse you have now taken off your blindfold (gained RSM) without ever looking in the room again.
Drop this fanfic.




WorldsStrongest said:


> And stated by BZ who is the only dude who ever even talked about Totsuka ever...Still said Mommy > anything thats not Rikudo CT


Fanfic. He said that in a context where he was fighting and talking down to his enemies,  and was not a neutral source. He also said Kaguya could absorb any and all jutsu, an obvious lie/bluff. His statements in a neutral context > in a biased context where he has every reason to lie or omit information to his enemies. Databook statement to confirm debunks you.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 20, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> chakra has always been irremovably connected to the soul.



Proof?

Because this obviously cannot be the case because people have existed before the advent of chakra.



> Nagato was ripping out Naruto's soul, and Naruto said he was losing strength/stamina, which in turn means he was losing chakra.



That's because removing your soul kills you. It doesn't steal you chakra.



> Every single time a soul has been removed in this manga the victim's chakra level dropped accordingly .



That's a death thing.

I'm not wasting my time addressing every point of your fanfiction. People existed before chakra so presumably souls existed before chakra. While a soul and chakra can interact they are two distinct and unique properties.



> The consciousness is a soul because all Orochimaru needed was a piece of flesh in order to make a new body.



Where in the manga are we told the consciousness and the soul are the exact same thing? I get you like to repeat your fanfiction, but repetition of unproven premises is not evidence.



> Oro clearly states that placing his senjutsu chakra in Anko all those years ago caused part of his consciousness to be slipped into her. Viz translation also says the same thing.



Nobody said otherwise.

The amount of strawman and non sequitur is amazing.



> We know this is a duplicate because the OG  Oro has been continously walking about the world with Sasuke, Kabuto, the Sound 4, you name it, yet also simultaneously watching the world through Anko the entire time. He isn't in two places at once. We also know its a duplicate and that he cannot communicate with these duplicates or share experience without directly reabsorbing/merging, just based on this:



We know it's the same Oro soulwise because he HAS THE SAME SOUL.

I don't care about physical bodies or split consciousness. The ability to create multiple bodies or split your consciousness is standard stuff in Naruto. (Kage bunshins)

The smoking gun here is the fact that the revived Oro had the sealed Oro's soul.

No need to get caught up in wild speculation that addresses nothing worthwhile. 



> Oro also had a duplicate in sasuke's curse mark. This duplicate would have been observing Sasuke directly all these years. So the fact that the OG Orochimaru doesn't recognize the jutsu or know that Sasuke was coming for him a*t this precise moment *tells me that he cannot share information with his horcrux consciousnesses or vice versa, without directly reasborbing them.



There is no horcrux. This isn't Harry Potter.

Information latency is a standard aspect of split consciousness and has no relevance to the point.



> The OG Orochimaru had a copy of his consciousness in Sasuke's CM before Sasuke even had absorbed him.   We know this copy merged with the OG Oro when Sasuke  absorbed him, because only one Oro is seen emerging from Sasuke's Body When Itachi strips him of Orochimaru. The copy predates RDS, so it clearly should have a fresh copy of his soul, with his soul arms included. Yet the new, merged Oro, doesn't have useable arms for ninjutsu.



You just proved you can't copy a soul.

Thanks.



> Your alternate theory makes no sense,



It's the only thing that makes sense.

It doesn't make sense to you because it destroys your wank fantasy of the unlimited Totsuka.



> as we already know that its impossible for the OG Orochimaru to insert himself into another horcrux remotely from a distance.



There is no such thing as horcruxes in Naruto.

Stop with the fanfiction nonsense.



> Even after Sasuke "killed Oro", his copy in Anko still persisted all this time, continuing to gather intel from within Anko while Hebi Sasuke was out fighting Deidara and shit. And we know it was doing so independent of any of the other Orochimaru dopplegangers.  The copy in anko is the copy in anko, the OG Orochimaru was already sealed by Totsuka, as per canon.



The release of Oro from his cursed seal with his original soul shows you can bypass the Totsuka SEALED FOR ALL TIME nonsense without interacting with Totsuka.

No amount of wacky fanfiction changes this.



> Actually, you're right on this point,



I'm right on everything I said. AGAIN:

You're choices are: 

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

So while Totsuka does seal those it stabs, there is a work around. It also shows that Totsuka is *an inferior sealing technique* to RDS because there is no bypass on RDS. You must undo the seal itself.

I await your next influx of unrelenting fanfiction.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 22, 2019)

This is coming in two posts, so cover both.



ShinAkuma said:


> Proof?
> 
> Because this obviously cannot be the case because people have existed before the advent of chakra.





ShinAkuma said:


> That's because removing your soul kills you. It doesn't steal you chakra.





ShinAkuma said:


> That's a death thing.
> 
> I'm not wasting my time addressing every point of your fanfiction. People existed before chakra so presumably souls existed before chakra. While a soul and chakra can interact they are two distinct and unique properties.









ShinAkuma said:


> Where in the manga are we told the consciousness and the soul are the exact same thing? I get you like to repeat your fanfiction, but repetition of unproven premises is not evidence.




"Soul or  (: ψυχή _psykhḗ_, of ψύχειν _psýkhein_, "to breathe") comprises the *mental abilities of a living being*: reason, character, *feeling, consciousness, memory, perception, thinking, etc*. Depending on the philosophical system, a soul can either be mortal or ."

"the principle of life, *feeling, thought, and action* in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part."


*"the immaterial essence*, animating principle, or *actuating cause of an individual life"*
Lets just review the fact that the definition of soul is pretty universal and always relates to consciousness. Now in universe confirmation you say?:

When Kakashi's soul was returned to him by Nagato his consciousness AND chakra returned. If removing the soul took away his chakra and consciousness, and putting it back returned his chakra and consciousness, then the soul is the source.



We know Kakashi had zero chakra when he died because he said so himself. Yet simply returning his soul restored all his chakra back.  Do the math.

Further proven by Naruto losing soul = losing chakra, and Killer Bee likening Naruto's tug of war with Nagato to the one  Naruto had with Kyuubi.
Plus, Minato was stated to have put his mental energy inside Naruto, which equal mind which equal = chakra = equal soul.
Gedo mazou dragons absorbing chakra and soul.

The Kyuubi literally is chakra+ consciousness created from ten tails and a technique that absorbs *souls, RDS, * literally took not just half its chakra, but also HALF its consciousness and created a sentient and self-aware clone.
The consciousness is A PART OF THE SOUL.


We literally See chiyo's soul talking and perceiving what was happening as she is returning to the afterlife. That means the consciousness is contained in the soul, even if your physical body dies/is destroyed. We even see that the soul can cast techniques ( souls of the previous Hokage helping Hagoromo's soul  summon Team 7 back to Earth, Dan's technique, Minato fixing Naruto's seal), have arms as well, meaning it also carries chakra, and can even share some of its chakra with others:









Pay particular attention to the DMS Kakashi creation. How did Obito's soul transfer six paths chakra to Kakashi that he took from Juubidara to Kakashi if his soul didn't possess chakra? How did his sharingan and kamui get transfered? and the chakra for  Obito's Susano'o? And then answer the reverse. Why did sharingan disappear from Kakashi when Obito's soul left?
We are also explicitly told by Mei that the soul does carry chakra or is chakra itself in these panels too. Also, Hagromomo's soul calls himself chakra.

And to revive a person, you don't even needed to return their soul to their original body, all you have to do is place their soul in another living person, which is the basis of the Edo Tensei, and now all of sudden their new host bodies are designed with their chakra and all of their genetic traits/physical traits and memories. This is basically how Oro's body transfer technique works as well, to begin with, and explains why he can change the physical features of his host to match his original appearance and body.



This also proves that chakra is also coupled with the mind/soul/consciousness, but you can remove the chakra from the mind/soul/consciousness, which is something we already know. Oro's soul's arms were separated from his consciousness by the RDS.

Even if the soul predated chakra, it doesn't matter. It's now directly interwoven with chakra and concisousness and we have no reason to assume they are separate unless explicitly shown or stated to have been separated. As I said, Mei and Hagoromo  literally said that  soul IS  chakra, debunking the idea that the soul existed before chakra.


And while we are at, it recall that Orochimaru no longer had a physical body when Sasuke absorbed his soul.  The other Oro that was originally sealed in Sasuke also had no physical body.  They fused. Now ,Orochimaru's chakra (i.e. soul) shoved itself to the surface and created a new physical body using flesh created by the CM2 transformation Sasuke used most likely.

All the evidence suggests that the soul is chakra, and the consciousness is stored with the soul. But chakra isn't necessarily the soul.




ShinAkuma said:


> Nobody said otherwise.
> 
> The amount of strawman and non sequitur is amazing.



No, you think its strawman because you were separating chakra from consciousness and consciousness from the soul. I posted that scan to remind you Oro was putting his SOUL into Anko BECAUSE he put his chakra and consciousness in her,




ShinAkuma said:


> Information latency is a standard aspect of split consciousness and has no relevance to the point.



No there isn't any significant latency. Naruto knew what his clone and Kakashi's clone were doing the moment they poofed, which was the trigger for information to be sent.  

Orochimaru knew all of Kabuto's experiences the moment he took back *his own senjutsu chakra* from Kabuto. Nice fanfic though lol. Even for the six paths of Pain controlled by Nagato, they were sending sensory information back to Nagato basically instantly and vice versa for Nagato talking through them and giving commands using signals from chakra rods even though he is always at great distances from them.  When the pain bodies share information with Nagato they also do so instantly with no real delay, which is part of what made Jiraiya and Pa come up with the theory of shared vision in the first place. Information travel through chakra, therefore, is at a minimum the speed of light, most probably literally instant using some kind of entanglement. Oro should have known who it was the moment he was stabbed; yet he was taking mad time to contemplate on who it might be, when he literally has a camera inside Sasuke watching Sasuke's every move, every nanosecond of the day,  for the last 3 years AND counting.  The moment Sasuke began thrusting that chidori stream through the door the OG Oro should have been able to identify him.

It has relevance because it shows that there isn't only one Orochimaru soul and they don't interact save for direct physical contact.




ShinAkuma said:


> The release of Oro from his cursed seal with his original soul shows you can bypass the Totsuka SEALED FOR ALL TIME nonsense without interacting with Totsuka.
> 
> No amount of wacky fanfiction changes this.




>didn't interact with Totsuka
> yet escapes the gourd according to you, escapes the genjutsu, made his way into Anko after being sealed, which means he must have interacted with it, broke its sealing barrier/bypassed it in order to escape.
I'm the one with wacky fanfiction, sure.


ShinAkuma said:


> You just proved you can't copy a soul.
> 
> Thanks.



Except you can. Hiruzen SHOWED us that the soul can be copied. His shadow clones had their own souls.
 and were fighting Tobirama's and Hashirama souls in the reaper.
Shadow clones thereby copy the souls of its user. And Tobirama's and Hashirama's souls obviously had their consciousnesses with them, and so did Hiruzen's shadow clones which were already established by the rasenshuriken training to have their own consciousness. Hell, the fact that SM Naruto showed shadow clones return chakra to the original (along with their consciousness) only corroborates that they have a soul. Those Hiruzen shadow clone souls were no longer present when Orochimaru undid the seal most likely because the OG  Hiruzen reabsorbed them the same why Oro reabsorbed his arm souls.

You are also  now being hypocritical. You (justifably) called me out or making the poor argument that Oro copied his souls without placing his arm souls. Now you are using the same argument.  Oro placed only his consciousness, and not the rest of his soul, in  all 7  horcruxes(sound 5, anko, sasuke),  just for the lolz, when having backups of his most prized possession (arm souls containing all the ninjutsu he has learned) literally benefits him in every way? We know he put his chakra and consciousness into the curse mark seals ? We know it had his soul because he placed the CHAKRA AND CONSCIOUSNESS inside the curse mark seal. He had no reason to separate his consciousness from the rest of his soul, and he for dam sure had no reason to specifically separate ALL 7 of the arm souls away from  ALL 7 of the consciousness of his Horcrux souls.




These backups no longer have arm souls most likely because of quantum entanglement, the permanent damage caused by the RDS caused his other clones to also lose their arm souls.  We have seen this kind of link exists, otherwise Naruto and Minato wouldn't have been able to teleport all other parts of the alliance without direct contact. Otherwise, it makes no sense that nine tails chakra in one clone would magically cause pain in another clone from a distance, when said other clone wasn't even drawing on any nine tails chakra, and it certainly wouldn't make sense that the attention capacity of each clone would be inhibited by the number of other clones doing separate complex tasks (SM Naruto clones trying at gathering nature energy while other clones are fighting Pain). Their body, minds, and chakra are all clearly entangled in some ways even from LONG distance, as the SM clones gathering nature energy were all the way in mount myoboku).

And I'm calling them horcuxes because that's what they basically are dude lol. Two evil snake-loving men (voldemort and oro) putting pieces of their souls in other people.



ShinAkuma said:


> Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.



Nonsense. That Oro was present in Anko for years. Reviving in _Naruto _means giving one a body for their soul to be housed in , and drawing the soul to that body. The basis of the edo tensei. The basis of rinne tensei. EvenThe basis of Oro's soul transfer,as you can argue he is being reborn every time he steals a new body. Sasuke released his consciousness by releasing the seal AND gave him the necessary material to create a new body all in one go with Juugo's help. That's how he was "revived".

You haven't proved at all that the Oro that came out of anko is the original soul. We are explicitly told that he was created well before the  RDS or Totsuka incidents and had been experiencing everything through the lens of anko. Arguing against canon to create your own canon of events is a definition of fanfiction is it not? You say its the original soul because it lacks arm souls, but then ignore all the other plot holes that arise from that being the original soul, and ignore the fact that all the other Orochimarus lacked arm souls as well, meaning your counter-argument is moot. It's called proof by contradiction my friend. I showed why it cannot be the original.
*
 In your theory, Oro should have a fresh pair of  his souls's arms two times over. Because he remerged with the soul that was in Sasuke pre-time skip and pre RDS,  before being sealed in the Totsuka gourd. Then his soul merged again with the soul in Anko, which also predates RDS.  Your theory literally has the same apparent plot hole that mine does , except at LEAST I can give an  in-universe explanation that can explain why he no longer has his arms, thus filling the hole.   With yours it's hopeless, because Oro has ZERO reason to not have had  backup copies of his arm souls in these horcruxes. Literally every other time we have seen souls or clones of souls, they came with a full package, unless someone went out of their way to remove a specific part.*


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 22, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.




Not at all. Remember Occam's razor? To accept your theory, we have to :


1) fuck what DB3 (author ) says, fuck what Itachi says, fuck what Oro says ( said he needed to be revived through his other horcruxes that predate both RDS and Totsuka, with help from a  third party , meaning he never escaped the Totsuka gourd to begin with),  fuck with Zetsu says.  Itachi also knew the mechanics of Oro's soul technique, because he knew that pushing Sasuke to the point of chakra exhaustion would force Orochimaru out, and used the blade specifically for the purpose of stripping Sasuke of Oro.  DB3 and Zetsu have already been addressed, and it seems both you and @WorldsStrongest  have no counterargument on that, so let's focus on Oro's actions now, leading us to point 2.

2) Orochimaru escaped the gourd according to you right? Fine, okay,  Mr. I'm just gonna ignore what the mang and databook tells us. How exactly did Oro escape, and when?
You haven't explained at all how any of that works, so correct me where I'm wrong:
So he breaks the genjutsu, escapes the gourd, and then for whatever reason, doesn't fly back into Sasuke when Itachi dies or into one of the 3 fodder snakes (which also contain his chakra btw) that escaped the hydra, he instead magically somehow flies all the way to Anko, somehow enters her body when we saw that even for  BOS Sauske, who already had a CM just like anko,  he had to physically enter his body using the great white Snake just like he had to for Zetsu.




That means that unless he directly inserts senjutsu chakra into a person through physical contact/biting them, he also needs an existing body to transfer his soul to another person, which means Totsuka didn't even seal his body either LOL. Blade is complete and utter trash lol. I'm literally dying dude. Oro searched all his life for a blade that couldn't even seal himself, what a waste of time





But yeah, where was I? Oh yeah, So his body escaped Totsuka as well, despite us NEVER seeing this shit happen on panel. And just for the additional lulz, he didn't do this moment he identified the totsuka blade, he instead showed anxiety ( when he had nothing to fear) and just let himself get sealed , when he could have continued fighting and outlasted Itachi lol.  When Oro could have simply waited for Itachi to die, and then go after a sasuke whose chakra levels were so low he couldn't use sharingan and could barely stand up, and steal the latter's body.

So yeah, anywho,  when he instead decides to fly all the way out to meet Anko, and meets her, she has zero recollection of this happening afterwards, never reports it to anyone, no one else is ever aware of this, so a 1v1 battle must have went down in some secluded forest , and Oro entered her body, laid there dormantly , and hooked up with the other Orochimaru that had been sealed in her years ago. All Seems legit so far.

And not only that, when he merges with the soul/consciousness he had already had in Anko, he PURPOSELY traps himself in a seal that can only be opened up with third party intervention,  which, btw he had no way of acquiring. He was surprised that Taka even revived him, and he had no ability to anticipate that Taka would even dare to do so. All of Taka mistrusted/hated/feared him bar maybe Juugo, and they only reaccepted Oro because of Sasuke. Kabuto also betrayed Orochimaru; the servant had admired his master, but only seeked his intel and abilities in the end and desired to integrate Oro into himself and surpass Oro. Kabuto had no intention of reviving Oro.  No one in the Akatsuki was gonna revive him, they wanted him dead. And the rest of the ninja alliance considered Orochimaru an enemy.  THERE WAS LITERALLY NO ONE  at the time who would have willingly revived Oro except for Sasuke, which Oro didn't even see coming as per his own admission. So why would Oro be stupid enough to fly into a seal that he had no way of releasing himself from on his own?  At this point,  Why not fly back to the consciousness he had in Kabuto? Kabuto didn't have a curse mark that would have needed to be unsealed by a third party, and he possessed Oro's senjutsu chakra , and also possessed Oro's flesh. Literally all the ingredients for his revival were there.


You literally can't give me any rational explanation of your theory. Oro had several pieces of his soul spread across multiple people, and they never shared intel as I already proved, unless oro reabsorbed them through chakra absorption upon physical contact.  That means the consciousnesses are separate. We already have seen the ability to do this isn't even unique to Oro. Minato did the same shit with himself and Kuhshina, pouring their chakra AND consciousness into Naruto and  ended up leaking a clone of their souls into his seal. Obito did the same shit putting one tails and eight tails  CHAKRA AND CONSCIOUSNESS into Naruto.  The bijuu did the same shit putting Bijuu 2-7's chakra AND consciousness into Naruto which acted independently of the ones sealed in the Gedo Mazou. Tobirama did the same shit by creating Kage Bunshins. Oro never showed the ability to remotely contact his other souls/consciousness from a distance, or remerge with them from a distance,  he always needed physical contact with an actual physical body of his own to do so. We literally see him fail to use this purported ability in circumstances where it would have helped him greatly.





In my theory, DB3, Itachi, Oro, BZ statements aren't contradicted. The consciousness/soul in Anko was simply unsealed by Sasuke. It doesn't have arm souls because of some kind of damage transfer via some chakra based quantum entanglement, or Kishi just didn't think that hard about it. If Kishi just didn't think that hard about it, and you don't buy the partial quantum entanglement (meaning the souls don't share experiences  from a distance but perhaps only physical damage to the soul?),  it's still only ONE  plot hole in my theory, a plot hole that will always exist no matter what because Oro should have had 7 backups no matter how you look at it,   everything else fits, and it doesn't even matter in the end. In this work of fiction, well known for its inconsistency, it's the best I can do.  Compared to yours, my theory introduces less contradictions, less convoluted explanations/plot contrivances/PIS for Oro, less denial of chakra/soul/consciousness mechanics, less fanfiction abilities for Orochimaru, and less things that have no evidence backing them (literally no statement, or manga panel explicitly showing Orochimaru leaving the gourd, no Databook IV statements saying as such either, and literally a truckload of character statements/author statements saying he couldn't have).  Occam's razor says we go with the theory that has the least amount of undefined variables/assumptions, and that implicitly includes the one that has the least amount of contradictions just by standard rules of logical debating.









ShinAkuma said:


> I await your next influx of unrelenting fanfiction.



It's not fanfiction , I posted you character statements AND databook statements supporting my argument. And even if we pretend like your theory has the manga/databook backing it (it doesn't), that just means we both have two competing theories each, plausible, each that have their own problems because of Kishi's inconsistent writing. I happily await your next influx of canon denial. But nonetheless, I enjoy this  debate cause I have learned quite a bit and I admit I made some mistakes, but you really haven't done anything overall but relentlessly deny canon.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> This is coming in two posts, so cover both.
> 
> 
> "Soul or  (: ψυχή _psykhḗ_, of ψύχειν _psýkhein_, "to breathe") comprises the *mental abilities of a living being*: reason, character, *feeling, consciousness, memory, perception, thinking, etc*. Depending on the philosophical system, a soul can either be mortal or ."
> ...



I get you like to conflate other fictions with Naruto (Harry Potter) but that doesn't apply to *Naruto*.

Where in Naruto is the soul and chakra considered the same.

Here's a hint - it's not.



> When Kakashi's soul was returned to him by Nagato his consciousness AND chakra returned.



Yes being *alive* means you have chakra, it doesn't mean your chakra is your soul.

People existed before chakra. This is a fact that cannot be bypassed by unrelenting fanfiction.



> Further proven by Naruto losing soul = losing chakra,



He dying. That's why he's losing chakra. this was already covered.



> Gedo mazou dragons absorbing chakra and soul.



Yes I know. Chakra and soul are *two different things*.

Snipped the rest of that because it's non sequitur. It's just random babble about souls and chakra.



> No, you think its strawman because you were separating chakra from consciousness and consciousness from the soul.



I'm not separating it, the manga is. There's a reason they are all referred as distinctly unique.



> I posted that scan to remind you Oro was putting his SOUL into Anko BECAUSE he put his chakra and consciousness in her,



Posting a scan and narrating it with *your fanfiction* is NOT EVIDENCE.



> No there isn't any significant latency. Naruto knew what his clone and Kakashi's clone were doing the moment they poofed,



That's latency.

The information cannot be passed until the technique is released. Durrrrr



> It has relevance because it shows that there isn't only one Orochimaru soul and they don't interact save for direct physical contact.



We know the revived Oro is the same as the sealed Oro because his soul is damaged in the same way.

You can never fanfic  away from this.



> >didn't interact with Totsuka
> > yet escapes the gourd according to you, escapes the genjutsu, made his way into Anko after being sealed, which means he must have interacted with it, broke its sealing barrier/bypassed it in order to escape.
> I'm the one with wacky fanfiction, sure.



It's not according to me this is an observation of the manga. 

The sealed Oro was revived via his cursed seal. We know it's the same guy because he has *the same soul*. This debunks the Totsuka hype.

You cannot fanfiction your way out of this fact.




> Except you can. Hiruzen SHOWED us that the soul can be copied. His shadow clones had their own souls.



Only one Hiruzen soul was sealed in the death reaper. If these were copies there would have been 3. There wasn't so we know it was only 1 soul.



> You are also  now being hypocritical.



No.

I'm not a hypocrite by using your shit tier logic against you.

It's called irony not hypocrisy.

I've given you the reasonable interpretation that you keep mental gymnasticing your way around. Don't matter to me if you keep making awful arguments and fanfiction.

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal



> These backups no longer have arm souls most likely because of quantum entanglement,



Get the fuck outta here.



Don't ever talk about occams razor while offering fanfiction that includes quantum entanglement, cloned souls, horcruxes lmao

This is just garbage tier denial now.



> Nonsense.



Nope.

Released Oro had the same fractured soul as the sealed Oro.

Yeah, hurcruxes and quantum entanglement lmao fanfiction aside you're fucked.



> You haven't proved at all that the Oro that came out of anko is the original soul.



Yes i did.

He has the fractured soul of the sealed Oro.



> We are explicitly told that he was created well before the  RDS or Totsuka incidents and had been experiencing everything through the lens of anko.



Yes I know.

I'm the one who pointed this out.



> Arguing against canon to create your own canon of events is a definition of fanfiction is it not?



I'm not arguing against canon, I'm pointing it out.



> You say its the original soul because it lacks arm souls, but then ignore all the other plot holes that arise from that being the original soul,



There is no plot holes. Your wank getting blown up isn't a "plot hole" lol



> and ignore the fact that all the other Orochimarus lacked arm souls as well, meaning your counter-argument is moot.



There is no other Orochimaru's

*



			In your theory, Oro should have a fresh pair of  his souls's arms two times over.
		
Click to expand...

*
That's not my theory.

I'm saying he has 1 soul as shown by the canon.

Trashing the rest of this because it's a false premise.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Not at all. Remember Occam's razor? To accept your theory, we have to :



You have to accept what we are shown. No amount of fanfiction changes this. No amount of mental gymnastics changes this.

You're choices are: 

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal



> It's not fanfiction ,



Horcruxes? Fanfiction.

Soul/chakra the same thing? Fanfiction.

Quantum entanglement? Fanfiction.

You post fanfiction and then run off of it as tho it's "proof" but you're just wild speculating.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 23, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> That's latency.
> 
> The information cannot be passed until the technique is released. Durrrrr



No it isn't. once the signal is actually sent it is sent virtually instantly. The opposite of latency. Shadow clones are different because we know they don't share information until they poof. We are now talking about the mechanics of Oro's similar but different cloning technique.  Oro isn't sending signals between himself and his other copies from a remote distance, I already proved that. he has to absorb them through physical contact. This has always been the case for him



ShinAkuma said:


> Only one Hiruzen soul was sealed in the death reaper. If these were copies there would have been 3. There wasn't so we know it was only 1 soul.



We saw two souls in the reaper before the third Hiruzen entered, fighting Tobirama and Hashirama. Stop denying what we saw on panel. Split souls can be rejoined. Hiruzen rejoined his souls which is why one comes out . See yin and yang kurama rejoining as well.

Hagomoro, as a soul,  literally said the soul is chakra, yet you fanfiction and claim the soul predates chakra when we are TOLD it is chakra.  Just because people existed before chakra doesn't mean the soul existed. Even in real life the soul is just a religious concept, not scientifically proven, consciousness disappears when we die as far as science is concerned. Chakra is supernatural so it makes sense that it can behind the soul.



ShinAkuma said:


> We know the revived Oro is the same as the sealed Oro because his soul is damaged in the same way.
> 
> 
> You can never fanfic away from this.



Yes I can

Courtesy of @Turrin
"From inside the Juuin,* this jutsu releases Orochimaru's chakra which was previously given [I.e. the Chakra Orochimaru gave the target when placing the Juuin Seal]*, to summon the man himself [Orochimaru]. The "Fūja Hōin" that Kakashi had previously given Sasuke, is said to be intended as a pair with this Jutsu."
We are literally told that the chakra from inside Anko (predates Totsuka and RDS) was used to revive Oro.

We know Oro split his chakra and consciousness into anything that contained his senjutsu chakra, and in order to interact with these pieces of his soul, he needs to reabosrb via contact. Once he does any intel that soul collected gets transferred to him

He literally says "when he was inside Kabuto" he experienced what Kabuto was experiencing. But we know he only got this information once he remerged with the part of his soul that was in kabuto here:

.


ShinAkuma said:


> I'm saying he has 1 soul as shown by the canon.



There isn't one soul, he cloned himself 8 times if we are being conservative, the first 7 being sound 5+ anko+ sauske, the last one was accidental, as it was kabuto who did it :

he was constantly fighting Oro's consciousness since the day he absorbed him.
Edit:

He literally says Oro's life force was trying to take him over.

life force = soul

You can drop the fanfiction now dude.

Oro CLONED HIS SOUL. I literally dropped a textbook of evidence on you up to now.

Each soul comes with a full set of arms, yet none of these Horcruxes had a full set of arm souls.  We know souls can cast jutsu even without a physical body, which means they have arm souls, which means he should have had arms. Since none of his souls had arms, it means you cannot identify the original using the lack of arm souls as a metric. All the evidence suggests that Oro cloned himself the same way we saw others. ALL other examples show us that chakra + consciousness = soul that can be stored in other people, cast jutsu, and have their own unique experiences unless they rejoin with other clones or the original.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> No it isn't. once the signal is actually sent it is sent virtually instantly. The opposite of latency. Shadow clones are different because we know they don't share information until they poof. We are now talking about the mechanics of Oro's similar but different cloning technique.  Oro isn't sending signals between himself and his other copies from a remote distance, I already proved that. he has to absorb them through physical contact. This has always been the case for him



Ok sure. Perhaps I used the wrong terms. The point is the data is not transferred until the jutsu is released. With a KB you pop the clone, with the curse seal you release the seal.

However the point that this trait is consistent remains.



> We saw two souls in the reaper before the third Hiruzen entered,



It's one soul that exists over multiple bodies. We know this because only one Hiruzen soul was released from the death reaper seal not 3.



5 souls total.

Minato, Hiruzen, Tobirama, Hashirama and Oro's fractured soul.

We know that there were only 5 as a result your *premise cannot be true*.

This is how logic works. It's isn't a bunch of mental gymnastics to desperately hold on to some fanfiction. You examine the facts and accept the conclusion.



> Hagomoro, as a soul,  literally said the soul is chakra,



No he didn't.

There is no point in the manga that we are told the soul ad chakra are the exact same thing.

They may have similarities but they exist without the other.



> Yes I can
> 
> Courtesy of @Turrin
> "From inside the Juuin,* this jutsu releases Orochimaru's chakra which was previously given [I.e. the Chakra Orochimaru gave the target when placing the Juuin Seal]*, to summon the man himself [Orochimaru]. The "Fūja Hōin" that Kakashi had previously given Sasuke, is said to be intended as a pair with this Jutsu."
> ...



This is completely irrelevant.

Nobody said Oro couldn't split his consciousness. Split consciousness is standard in the manga. (clones)

Showing a split of chakra or consciousness  has nothing to do with proving they are the same as the soul.

Stop making awful irrelevant arguments.



> There isn't one soul,



Yes there is.

We know this because the sealed Oro and the revived Oro have the same soul.



> You can drop the fanfiction now dude.
> 
> Oro CLONED HIS SOUL.



No he didn't.

If you could clone his soul he would never need to release his fractured soul from the death reaper.



> I literally dropped a textbook of evidence on you up to now.



Yes a textbook of fanfiction. Par for the course.



> Each soul comes with a full set of arms, yet none of these Horcruxes had a full set of arm souls.  We know souls can cast jutsu even without a physical body, which means they have arm souls, which means he should have had arms. Since none of his souls had arms, it means you cannot identify the original using the lack of arm souls as a metric. All the evidence suggests that Oro cloned himself the same way we saw others. ALL other examples show us that chakra + consciousness = soul that can be stored in other people, cast jutsu, and have their own unique experiences unless they rejoin with other clones or the original.



WHAT THE FUCK?

Dude you just debunked yourself!

The released Oro was from Anko's seal which was created BEFORE HE LOST HIS ARMS.

It's like you don't even know what you're posting.

I have given you the only logical answer, multiple times. Here it is again. Although I do like watching you make arguments that debunk your own premises.

You're choices are:

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 23, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's one soul that exists over multiple bodies. We know this because only one Hiruzen soul was released from the death reaper seal not 3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, there were  6 separate souls. You forgot Yin Kurama. counting hiruzen's copies there were 8 total.

We literally see what the soul looks like when its pulled out from the body by RDS, and it's visually the same for Oro

visually the same for Hashi/Tobirama


And visually the same for half of Kurama's soul::


They literally all have those wrinkled , rectangular but defomred,  paper-like things floating inside them. Kurama has a soul as per visual confirmation. Kurama has a soul as per the RDS working on it in the first place, a technique explicitly stated multiple times to suck in souls, not whatever your fanfic interpretation is.  We are also told multiple times that the soul is effectively chakra plus the consciousness, so it losing half of its chakra is to be expected if half its soul is pulled out.


 Hagoromo's soul is CALLED CHAKRA.

Asura is reborn multiple times over the ages, and his soul clinging to Naruto is called CHAKRA.





And you're reaching really hard at this point. There were 3 hiruzens. All 3 of them cast the reaper jutsu at the same time. And now I'm supposed to believe that it is a coincidence that when Hashi and Tobirama were sealed by TWO hiruzen clones , that  TWO Hiruzen souls popped up next to them in the reaper? The same souls that are then devoured shortly after?


We know two additional Hiruzen souls were sealed because they were swallowed into the reaper,  while the original Hiruzen's soul remained suspended by the reaper's hair until Hiruzen took out Oro's soul arms.

There were 3 hiruzen souls in the reaper, one emerged because they fused, just like yin and yang kurama fused. It's really simple

yin kurama's soul can  has a chakra plus conciousness, can cast jutsu, and is a clone of yang kurama. Orochimaru who split his chakra and consciousness also split his soul. It's explicitly stated that his SOUL was inside Kabuto who absorbed his chakra. that means anyone else with his senjutsu chakra also has his consciousness, which means they have his soul, which means his soul was cloned 8 times. Until you accept this premise, you are not going to understand my argument.



ShinAkuma said:


> WHAT THE FUCK?
> 
> 
> Dude you just debunked yourself!
> ...



No i didn't debunk myself. My conclusion logically follows from the premise. The fact that he doesn't have arm souls in any one of the clones just means that Kishimoto fucked up. Which means we cannot identify the original soul based on the lack of arm souls. Which means your theory is just as fucked as mine in that regard,  except for the fact that mine offers less contradictions to the canon aside from this. Remember occam's razor?

Orochimaru's SOUL was present in Anko before RDS and Totsuka, therefore it should have arm souls. The soul was released when Sssuke undid the curse mark and then given a new phyiscal body using kabuto's flesh. It literally cannot be the one sealed by Itachi, because we are explicitly told that Oro's chakra from the CURSE MARK, not from Totsuka gourd, was summoned out of ANKO. And since the soul is one with the concisousness, And since Oro had no reason to separate  them, we know a COPY of his SOUL was present in Anko. This is literally how its worked for literally everyone else who literally split their chakra and conciousness. whether its kurama forming into yin and yang kurama, obito and the bijuu giving naruto full copies of bijuus 1-8 but with a smalller amount of chakra for each, Minato sealing his soul and Kushina's in Naruto, etc.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> First of all, there were  6 separate souls.



No.

There is 5.

Stop.



> You forgot Yin Kurama. counting hiruzen's copies there were 8 total.



That's chakra not a soul hence why *we don't see it being released.*



5 is what we see 5 is what there is. Not interested in desperate mental gymnastics.

Snipping the fanfiction based on a false premise.



> Hagoromo's soul is CALLED CHAKRA.



No.

At no point does he say his soul is chakra. Being desperate to find any mention of chakra doesn't make it a soul.

He says he wanders the world as chakra.

*Link Removed*

He doesn't say his soul IS chakra.

Moving along.



> Asura is reborn multiple times over the ages, and his soul clinging to Naruto is called CHAKRA.



No it says his chakra is clinging to Naruto, not his SOUL.

Which should be obvious as Naruto has his OWN SOUL.

Showing us that chakra exists doesn't mean it is a soul. Chakra and the soul are two unique items in Naruto.



> And you're reaching really hard at this point.



5 souls.

That's not a reach it's a count.



I don't care about your fanfiction.



> No i didn't debunk myself.



Yes, yes you did.

"Each soul comes with a full set of arms" except the Oro sealed in Anko had the same fractured soul as the sealed Oro. Which mean THEY HAVE THE SAME SOUL.

Debunked yourself.

Amazing.



> My conclusion logically follows from the premise. The fact that he doesn't have arm souls in any one of the clones just means that Kishimoto fucked up.



No dude, you fucked up.

Your wacked out interpretation with wankery and mental gymnastics has lead you to the most contrived and convoluted theories desperate to maintain your wank, even tho we have a simple logical explanation.

*- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his real soul. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal*

It's over. You've debunked yourself twice now. You have done so many mental gymnastics you don't know if you're coming or going.

It's a wild mess!


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 23, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> There is 5.
> 
> Stop.



No , you stop. 
I'm snipping the rest until you admit you're wrong here, since this is basically were the disconnect exists. Debate goes nowhere until this is resolved.

Minato and Kurama souls were both absorbed into the Reaper.

We are told that the souls fight and tangle. 

We are shown that souls can cast jutsu multiple times if you bothered to read through my previous posts carefully. Therefore Minato's soul sealed kurama's soul inside his own in the reaper, which is why Kurama's soul is no longer present. he is inside Minato's.

We see the reaper snipping off Hashirama's and hiruzen's shadow clone soul from the rest of Hiruzen's soul here. The same thing implicitly happened for tobirama and Hiruzen's other soul, and they entered the reaper's stomach, while the OG Hiruzen soul remained.




Hiruzen thereby fused with his other souls the same way Kurama refused with Kurama.




Mei says that Madara's departing soul was his chakra. Give it up already. Hagoromo said his soul was chakra that persists. Hagoromo said that Ashura's soul is chakra that clings to its reincarnates.



ThirdRidoku said:


> There isn't one soul, he cloned himself 8 times if we are being conservative, the first 7 being sound 5+ anko+ sauske, the last one was accidental, as it was kabuto who did it :
> 
> he was constantly fighting Oro's consciousness since the day he absorbed him.
> Edit:
> ...


We are explicitly told that Oro's soul was copied. You deny it vehemently, but I'm the one who is desperate, right?


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> No , you stop.
> I'm snipping the rest until you admit you're wrong here, since this is basically were the disconnect exists. Debate goes nowhere until this is resolved.





There is 5 souls released. An indisputable fact. Black and white for all to see.

Any shit tier nonsense about secretly 8 souls or whatever can go in the trash where it belongs. Your fanfiction is disproven by 5 souls.

It's over.



> We are explicitly told that Oro's soul was copied. You deny it vehemently, but I'm the one who is desperate, right?



The manga never said that, you did.

Not interested in fanfiction.


----------



## t0xeus (Dec 23, 2019)

Damn, free entertainment

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 23, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> There is 5 souls released. An indisputable fact. Black and white for all to see.
> 
> Any shit tier nonsense about secretly 8 souls or whatever can go in the trash where it belongs. Your fanfiction is disproven by 5 souls.
> 
> It's over.



Not really, everyone can see that you are very obviously ignoring the Hiruzen soul that was clipped off the OG's hiruzen soul and entered the reaper's stomach BEFORE the OG Hiruzen's soul was absorbed. At the very least, it shows that the soul was partioned. 

We literally also see that Minato's soul absorbed Kurama's because  he became Kurama's jinchuriki. We literally see that that material coming out of Kurama when his soul is ripped out is identical to the material coming out of everyone else the Reaper takes the soul of. You would have to either be clinically blind not to see that, or just in denial. If what was pulled out of Kurama was chakra, then what was pulled out of Hashirama and tobirama is also chakra because they are visually identical. No amount of reaching is changing that.

Thirdly, you ignored Mei's statement, clear concession.

Fourthly, we are told that the life force is synonymous with soul.

 We are told and shown that Oro's life force, i.e soul, was trying to compete with Kabuto for his body. Kabuto won. Oro later reabsorbed that soul to gain its intel.




t0xeus said:


> Damn, free entertainment



Dam  straight.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Not really,



Yes really. 



5 souls released from the shingami. No amount of mental gymnastics or Fanfiction can change this fact.

You premise was false from the getgo.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 23, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> 5 souls released from the shingami. No amount of mental gymnastics or Fanfiction can change this fact.


Clear strawman argument.
Doesn't matter that 5 souls were released. 8 entered. 5 left because of reasons clearly outlined. And you have nothing else to counter my other arguments either. I don't even need the RDS argument anymore. Mei, Kabuto, and KCM Naruto examples stand on their own.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Clear strawman argument.
> Doesn't matter that 5 souls were released. 8 entered.



If the shingami only had 5 souls in it that means ONLY 5 ENTERED.

DUH.

Wild Fanfiction cannot change this.

Fanfiction does need to be "countered" because it's bullshit.

Just because you type unrelenting nonsense does not mean it needs to be addressed.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 23, 2019)

Every day this thread stays unlocked, we stray further from Gods light


----------



## SakuraLover16 (Dec 24, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Every day this thread stays unlocked, we stray further from Gods light


Amen

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Stonaem (Dec 24, 2019)

I dont like to break up such an epic debate, especially when it's glorifying my own half-assed thread, but i think the problem may stem from Retconification.

In part 1, chakra was something you manufacture using pre-existing body and spirit energies. Chakra was not inherent, it was manufactured.

In part 2, chakra was spoken of as naturally occuring (Gates) and could be absorbed from anyone, not just ninja.

This seems a lot like a retcon. I'd argue that like feats for Kisame, part 2 apllies in the context of part 1, but i haven't worked on that idea.

So I'll just suggest it for now. Maybe the idea with chakra being almost connected to the sould is simply because most characters have it auto-prepped as a precaution. It makes sense for kage levels, their fights don't give much room for mistakes so it helps to always be on the front foot.

No?


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 24, 2019)

Naemlis Orez said:


> I dont like to break up such an epic debate, especially when it's glorifying my own half-assed thread, but i think the problem may stem from Retconification.
> 
> In part 1, chakra was something you manufacture using pre-existing body and spirit energies. Chakra was not inherent, it was manufactured.
> 
> ...



Well now that chakra was retconned to come from Kaguya I presume the idea behind it is it's basically a deus ex machina. (always was but had misunderstood origins previously)

As a result chakra can emulate and interact with pretty much anything. Internally it can interact with the mind body and soul. Externally it can reproduce the effects of nature and the elements like fire, wind, water, earth and lightning etc.

So while it can emulate and even create the effects of the previously listed things, chakra itself is *not these things,* because the world existed without chakra prior to Kaguya.

Perhaps Kodachi will touch upon the nature of chakra more, but he would just fuck it up.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 24, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> If the shingami only had 5 souls in it that means ONLY 5 ENTERED.
> 
> DUH.
> 
> ...





Souls need functional arms or their ability to cast ninjutsu is neutered, case in point Oro. We are told that shadow clones are 100 percent copies of the original. we have seen Hagormo and other souls casting ninjutsu without any issue, including jutsu that require hand seals. That means they have functional arm souls.  We have seen shadow clones casting techniques independent of the origninal, so they must have souls. We are told by Hiruzen that each caster of the RDS only gets one seal. One seal per caster, fact. 3 seals were done (Hashi, Tobirama, and Oro's arms). 3 casters were observed.  The sealing is complete when the 8 trigrams seal appears on the users chest.  8 trigrams seals appeared on both of Hiruzen's clones when they sealed Hashi and Tobirama , not the original, meaning the 2 clones had their own souls.  Then  both the victm and caster souls will slowly enter the reaper. 3  Hiruzen souls  total were seen entering the reaper. It can be directly observed on panel.  We saw Oro's arm souls later remerging with his own soul when they were in close proximity, so by inductive reasoning, the same thing happened with Hiruzen's souls. And since souls can cast jutsu as already proven, Minato sealed yin Kurama's soul into himself during their battle in the reaper.  It's really simple. Scans with the evidence were already posted. Your choice to acknowledge them or not.

And oh? Mei's, Naruto's, and Kabuto's character statement is fanfiction now? 

Mei alone shuts down your fanfiction. even P1 shikamaru. We were told multiple times that the soul/spirit/ghost is chakra, and also carries it. We saw Obito's soul giving Kakashi his Ridoku chakra when it possessed his body.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 24, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Souls need functional arms or their ability to cast ninjutsu is neutered, case in point Oro.



Yes I know. I pointed this out when you *debunked your own premise* lmao



> We are told that shadow clones are 100 percent copies of the original.



This is not true. Clones divide the chakra in half. Not that it's relevant however I am just illustrating your flawed interpretation of the manga.

Snipped the rest of the disproven fanfiction.



> And oh? Mei's, Naruto's, and Kabuto's character statement is fanfiction now?



No, your interpretation of her statement is fanfiction.

We have never been told that a soul *is* chakra or vice versa. Not once. In fact the opposite is implicated by the manga treating them as different.

Since we know for a fact that people existed before chakra was introduced to the world then presumably so did the soul, proving that they are two distinct traits.

You were asked to provide evidence that your premise of chakra is the soul. You didn't (because there isn't any there are two different things) So instead you're like LOOK AT ALL THIS CHAKRA STUFF

Your argument is so painfully dishonest. Why doesn't Human path absorb chakra? BECAUSE CHAKRA IS NOT THE SOUL

Why doesn't Preta path absorb the soul? BECAUSE THE SOUL IS NOT CHAKRA

It is self evident that these things are *different*, but I'm sure you can cyber vomit more fanfiction to ignore the facts.

I get that you can't accept the facts for what they are. You're simply too invested in this idea that Totsuka is some all powerful weapon, but that's not my problem. It's yours.

You want to be wrong, have at her. Here's the facts:



5 souls released meaning 5 souls entered. Not 8 that secretly merged off screen or some nonsense. BTW assumptions of things  happening offscreen is a violation of occam's razor, not that you care. I'm simply illustrating once again your lack of comprehension on such concepts.

Anyway the real answer has been there forever -

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

If you weren't so married to some Itachi wank, this would have ended the moment we saw the shingami release 5 souls. It would have been over the moment it was pointed out that Oro from Anko's seal was pre RDS. Fuck it should have been over the moment the no limits fallacy was pointed out.

Buuuuuuut nooooooo. Gotta wank dat Itachi.

So here we are.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 25, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> No, your interpretation of her statement is fanfiction.
> 
> We have never been told that a soul *is* chakra or vice versa. Not once. In fact the opposite is implicated by the manga treating them as different.
> 
> ...



You seem to just perpetually neglect the basic definition of a soul/spirit/ghost. The energy and consciousness that is left behind after a person's physical body has died or decayed, with the energy often taking the physical appearence of the deceased. That energy is chakra in the narutoverse, as per hagromo's spirit's statement.

And LOL, there is literally no other way to interpret Mei's statement. She witnessed Madara's soul trying to flee from his body, and later clinging to it, and named it chakra. If you were gonna mentally cartwheel around this, it would have been better to attack Mei's credibility as a source. All i see here is denial. And good luck debunking her credibility, no reason to lie, she is a seated kage so basic knowledge on the mechanics of her own world is to be expected, and nothing contradicts it, plus more supports it. Now that you have finally addressed this I can bring out my special reserve:






*Revolt of the Demon World (Makyou no Ran)*

Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, Close to mid-range
User: Tayuya
*The battle’s grand finale is a fiendish dance. The dead souls seek out life in a savage ballet. The floating onslaught of the craving apparitions!!*

Tayuya manipulates three Doki with the sound of her flute. Her releasing of the *materialized spirits – which is to say the special chakra sealed inside of those Doki – marks the start of the grand finale, a feast: the Revolt of the Demon World… The materialized spirits are composed almost only of mental energy, so the chakra is in an unstable state.* Therefore, they are starved for physical energy, search for it and gnash at it greedily…! There is no choice: the prey engaged in this endless pursuit perishes in the unsightly, frantic choreography.

Wielded through the intonations of the Demonic Flute, they devour physical energy…!!


*Mind Body Switch Technique (Shintenshin no Jutsu)*

Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary, Close to mid-range
User: Yamanaka Ino
*Her heart and spirit fly into the air and steal away the enemy’s body!!*

A jutsu where one releases their own *mind,* forcing it into the subject, thus usurping the opponent’s body. Success with this bold move will instantly determine the issue of a battle. The risk is just as great, though, as the caster’s body is defenseless during its utilisation, on top of which damage to the possessed opponent will be reflected upon the caster’s real body. Originally, this ninjutsu is suited for intelligence-gathering missions rather than battle.

Because she propels all of her *mental energy,* the shooting range and number of hits are considerably limited.
===========================

Tayuya's spirits/ghosts/demons are literally referred to as spiritual energy and chakra, and they are actual life forms with instinct to feed on energy. We are also told at the beginning of the manga that spiritual chakra comes from the SPIRIT which is synonymous with the mind. , we are told Ino's SPIRIT/SOUL is being used to control the victim, and is equivalent to her MENTAL ENERGY. 
, i.e soul, into Naruto, and we have been over this: that minato was a clone. Didn't share exp with the OG Minato, but also has a soul as per canon, as per having mental energy, chakra without a physical body but still minato's physical form,  and as per being able to cast a ninjutsu: resealing Naruto's seal.

You still haven't addressed KCM Naruto+Kabuto. Life force is synomymous with soul as per a simple google search and per KCM Naruto's statement. We see Oro's life force trying to consume Kabuto's body, and we know that the Oro inside Kabuto has a conciousness that was later reasborbed, so it's a soul. A soul that existed independent of the soul that was also competing for Hebi Sasuke's body. The soul was cloned lol.


Further, I would argue that Preta Path can theoretically absorb the soul. The soul is chakra, and possesses chakra inside of it. In theory, it can absorb Hagormoo's spirit, as we have seen through examples like Oro reasborbing his conciousness through absorbing senjutsu chakra, Gold and silver brothers + Naruto becoming jins just by absorbing chakra of biju chakra. If not absorb the spirit, it would at least drain the spirit of its chakra. I don't know for sure though. Can preta absorb shadow clones? can it absorb the mind transfer technique? If it can't then it just means Preta has limits, just like you showed me Samehada was limited. Chakra in certain forms can bypass the absorption mechanics, probably. Ningendo inherently drains the target of chakra by ripping out the soul. ningendo is also multifunctional, the soul doesn't have to be absorbed it can be placed in the Hell realm for storage. The other difference between preta and ningendo is that Preta turns stolen chakra back into stamina.



ShinAkuma said:


> This is not true. Clones divide the chakra in half. Not that it's relevant however I am just illustrating your flawed interpretation of the manga.



Except the clones and the original have the same amount of chakra at the moment of creation. Chakra is divided evenly, that's the whole reason why Neji can't tell the original from the clones dude lol. Even Kurama was cloned, as shown by Madara trying to summon him out of a Naruto clone. we see shadow clones casting ninjutsu with hand signs, such as Dat clone making clones against A3 and Madara, independent of the OG, so it must have arm souls, and therefore a soul.



ShinAkuma said:


> 5 souls released meaning 5 souls entered. Not 8 that secretly merged off screen or some nonsense. BTW assumptions of things happening offscreen is a violation of occam's razor, not that you care. I'm simply illustrating once again your lack of comprehension on such concepts.



Not an assumption. Inductive reasoning. my inductive conclusion follows logically from the premise. You judge an argument in two ways. If the premise is true, and the conclusion logically follows from the premise, then the argument is sound. If the premise is false, but the conclusion logically follows from the premise, the conclusion is valid but not sound or necessarily true. You know what my premise is. 8 souls entered. We can visually see that, and there is no reason at all to ignore the function of the reaper, it sucks souls lol. There is no violation of occam's razor here. If 8 souls entered and 5 souls left, then what MOST LIKELY happened is that some of the souls fused. We saw yin and yang kurama rejoin. We saw oro's arm souls rejoin. Why wouldn't hiruzen's split souls rejoin? why wouldn't Minato seal Kurama in himself? Souls were stated to fight in the reaper and it's already established they can cast jutsu. There was time, all of them were in there for months at the minimum, 16 years for Minato and yin kurama.  You rejected my premise on fallacious grounds. My premise is based on a directly observable fact, only eyesight and object identification and understanding that reaper sucks souls is necessary to acknowledge my premise as true in this case.




ShinAkuma said:


> Anyway the real answer has been there forever -
> 
> - Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal
> 
> ...



Lol. The real AUTHENTIC truth is that Kishi is an inconsistent writer. fact. he can't even get his timeline straight. Just like he forgot that Oro had 7 backup copies of his souls that should all have functional soul arms. Because of this inconsistency, we cannot identify the OG oro based on the lack of arm souls. And we can't identify it based on memories either, as once he reabsorbed the part of his soul in Kabuto he would have gotten back all the relevant ones, as the Oro in kabuto is a split off of the OG Oro as he was when he tried to steal Sasuke's body in BOS. This is big, because if we can't prove that this is the OG oro's soul, then there zero reason to believe the OG Oro isn't rotting away in genjutsu to this day.

Plus you're being hypocritical, as in your theories your'e assuming that Oro's soul escaped the gourd even though up to now you can't even link me a manga page directly showing me that so i can see with my eyes, the purported escape. I want to SEE the soul escaping the gourd man. just like you want to SEE hiruzen's souls joining back with each other lol. but unlike me, you can't even rationalize how it would be possible for Oro to escape. Let's pretend for a second that the soul can't be cloned (even though its illogical since we have seen the conciousness always persisted in the soul even after physical body is gone, which inherently means the soul can be cloned if conciosuness is, and even though I already debunked it.) We already agreed that Oro's body and conciosuness can be cloned, and are cloned into separate entities. So in order for your theory to work, it means that when Sasuke revived AnkoMaru, the OG Oro's soul flew out of the gourd and fused with him. But how does this work? Oro doesn't have Dan's transformation technique or mind transfer. We have already seen, in order to transfer his soul to another body, he needs a physical body to use the white snake technique. He even needed suigetsu to hold Zetsu's mouth open for this. He needed to fight and paralyze BOS Sasuke to pull this off.  He never once showed the ability to move his soul out of his body  and into another in the way you are implying. Furthermore, even if he did, he still needs to have broken the genjutsu. This mad scientist cucked to 11 year old Itachi's basic 3 tomoe genjutsu, and up to 7 years later, at the end of p1,  he was admitting inferiority to 11 year old Itachi's genjutsu. 3 years of time passage  between P1 and P2 isn't enough to close the gap when Itachi still had tsykuyomi under his belt. Even if you lowball Totsuka's legendary genjutsu, it should still be > or equal to Tskuyomi since its portrayed to be Itachi's best finishing move. So how did Oro break the genjutsu ?   Your theory of Oro's great snake escape  from Totsuka is a bigger plot hole than Sasuke's great snake escape against deidara, and that says a lot lol.



ShinAkuma said:


> If you weren't so married to some Itachi wank, this would have ended the moment we saw the shingami release 5 souls. It would have been over the moment it was pointed out that Oro from Anko's seal was pre RDS. Fuck it should have been over the moment the no limits fallacy was pointed out.
> 
> Buuuuuuut nooooooo. Gotta wank dat Itachi.



You shouldn't assume that I'm married to anything, I'm more than capable of integrating new information and new interpretations. Just don't expect me to fold on my argument at the first sign of strife, when I have a textbook of evidence supporting my case. If I'm wrong , the truth comes out eventually, and the understanding of that truth follows after. That's the point of the debate. Until then, if acknowledging what the manga tells us is wank, so be it.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 25, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You seem to just perpetually neglect the basic definition of a soul/spirit/ghost.



No, I reject your definition of it an wait evidence that the manga tells us that chakra and the soul are the same. (it doesn't ever indicate this)



> Tayuya's spirits/ghosts/demons are literally referred to as spiritual energy and chakra,



Spiritual energy AND chakra.

You argue they are the same while simultaneously posting examples that define them as two distinct traits.

Amazing.



> Further, I would argue that Preta Path can theoretically absorb the soul.



Of course you would except it can't.

Nor can Human path absorb chakra.

This should have ended the debate but welcome to the 2020 Mental Gymnastics wooooooooooooo



> Except the clones and the original have the same amount of chakra



I know.....I'm the one who pointed that out.



> Not an assumption.



An assumption used to support  your fanfiction. That is not "inductive reasoning" it's mental gymnastics.



> Lol. The real AUTHENTIC truth is that Kishi is an inconsistent writer.



The fact that Kishi is inconsistent doesn't  mean your fanfiction is better than normal logic. He can be as inconsistent as possible and we still must accept what logic tells us.




> Just like he forgot that Oro had 7 backup copies of his souls that should all have functional soul arms.



He didn't forget this YOU MADE THIS UP.

Kishi doesn't need to concern himself with your fanfiction rofl



> Because of this inconsistency, we cannot identify the OG oro based on the lack of arm souls.



Your theory is inconsistent with the manga, not the manga with itself on this matter.

YOUR THEORY.

That's when you abandon your theory buuuuuuuut noooooooo. I'm sure you're gonna tell us how reasonable you really are or some nonsense.



> Plus you're being hypocritical, as in your theories your'e assuming that Oro's soul escaped the gourd



Either it escaped or was never completely sealed.



> I want to SEE the soul escaping the gourd man.



I suppose you must remain disappointed.



> but unlike me, you can't even rationalize how it would be possible for Oro to escape.



This isn't a point against. I don't offer fanfiction, I observe the facts and go where logic takes us.

I suugest you stop trying to "rationalize" your own poor logic and discover what real logic is.



> Let's pretend for a second that the soul can't be cloned (even though its illogical since we have seen the conciousness always persisted in the soul even after physical body is gone, which inherently means the soul can be cloned if conciosuness is, and even though I already debunked it.) We already agreed that Oro's body and conciosuness can be cloned, and are cloned into separate entities. So in order for your theory to work, it means that when Sasuke revived AnkoMaru, the OG Oro's soul flew out of the gourd and fused with him. But how does this work? Oro doesn't have Dan's transformation technique or mind transfer. We have already seen, in order to transfer his soul to another body, he needs a physical body to use the white snake technique. He even needed suigetsu to hold Zetsu's mouth open for this. He needed to fight and paralyze BOS Sasuke to pull this off.  He never once showed the ability to move his soul out of his body  and into another in the way you are implying. Furthermore, even if he did, he still needs to have broken the genjutsu. This mad scientist cucked to 11 year old Itachi's basic 3 tomoe genjutsu, and up to 7 years later, at the end of p1,  he was admitting inferiority to 11 year old Itachi's genjutsu. 3 years of time passage  between P1 and P2 isn't enough to close the gap when Itachi still had tsykuyomi under his belt. Even if you lowball Totsuka's legendary genjutsu, it should still be > or equal to Tskuyomi since its portrayed to be Itachi's best finishing move. So how did Oro break the genjutsu ?   Your theory of Oro's great snake escape  from Totsuka is a bigger plot hole than Sasuke's great snake escape against deidara, and that says a lot lol.



Dude you already have the answer. You've had it for pages.

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal



> You shouldn't assume that I'm married to anything, I'm more than capable of integrating new information and new interpretations.



It's not an assumption man, it's an observation. You're the guy winning golds in mental gymnastics *because you can't accept new information*



> Just don't expect me to fold on my argument at the first sign of strife,



Thta's not how it works.

If information disproves your premise you abandon it, you don't "rework" infinitely with more fanfiction.

You can never arrive at the truth by constantly erecting barriers against it.



> when I have a textbook of evidence supporting my case. If I'm wrong , the truth comes out eventually, and the understanding of that truth follows after. That's the point of the debate. Until then, if acknowledging what the manga tells us is wank, so be it.



I've given you the truth already, you don't seem interested.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Spiritual energy AND chakra.
> 
> You argue they are the same while simultaneously posting examples that define them as two distinct traits.
> 
> Amazing.




The Yin Release/Shadow style is a nature transformation that converts chakra into spiritual energy. It's quite obvious that you need mental and spiritual energy to create chakra, but chakra can then be manipulated into ninjutsu and genjutsu  through chakra control, and chakra can be converted into many different things.  Chakra CAN EXIST  AS and CAN BE converted into _purely Spiritual energy_.   and behind the other techniques we know aren't 
:
*One of the Yin Release techniques,
that create form out of nothingness.
From the hands' palms, myriads of
lightning bolt branches are released,
capturing the enemy with the layed
out lightning. Used by Madara after
after transforming into the Sage of
Six Paths.*

And even if the soul wasn't chakra, my main point still stands. The fact that Minato can split his mental energy (which is explicitly stated to be the soul) into another Minato proves the soul can and is always cloned with arms. You can't offer an example otherwise. Ino's soul has arms and so does choji's:


Dude, with each post you do the same thing you accuse me of doing.  Sticking to your own headcanon no matter what I do. Mei's statement stands. The mechanics of the mind transfer technique still stands. Minato's soul in Naruto still stands. Hagoromo's statements still stands. Kabuto's statement about Oro's soul trying to take him over still stands. The soul is literally the consciousness. The dictionary says it. you can't name me a single religion, or a single fictional media where that's not the case. Naruto itself draws from Shintoism and Buddhism. So this argument was moot from the get-go. You asked me for proof that Kurama has a soul? It has a soul BECAUSE it has chakra, and in order to make chakra, you need a soul from which to draw spiritual energy from. We can also clearly see from the Kishi's illustrations that the material being pulled out of Kurama was identical to the material being pulled out of everyone else the reaper has ever been used on.

And boy, the mental gymnastics when it comes to Hiruzen's shadow clones. It's established that clones have their own consciousness. They have their own soul. They cast their own jutsu. Meaning they have their own soul and with soul arms. So before you even need visual proof, WE KNOW the soul can be cloned. I then linked you panels showing both of Hiruzen's clone's souls being eaten and devoured along with tobirama and Hashirama. And you still deny it.  The databook entry confirms that the reaper only devours soul, but you fanfic'd in a secondary function of the reaper. And even your secondary function is a moot point, because I already proved that the soul is chakra and in order to be capable of kneading chakra (which the nine tails is)  you need a soul to begin with.

Plus, even with your own strawman argument, you are wrong. Orochimaru's soul has TWO arms:



Yet when the reaper stomach is opened, those two arm souls were seen fused as one, wherein that one soul entered Oro before it  separated again and revitalized Oro's's soul's arms:


Right there is more evidence that souls within the reaper seal can be fused together.

Snipped the rest because based on a false premise. Oro's soul copies existed pre-RDS and pre Totsuka, and they should have arms, as Oro had no reason to snip arms off of his own souls when cloning them, remember?



ShinAkuma said:


> 've given you the truth already, you don't seem interested.



I can say the same about you. But I won't ASSUME that your _*apparent '*_disinterest' in the truth is static. People can change. Or Maybe I didn't present my argument clearly enough.   If a teacher doesn't teach the student well then the student won't learn.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 26, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> The Yin Release/Shadow style is a nature transformation that converts chakra into spiritual energy. It's quite obvious that you need mental and spiritual energy to create chakra, but chakra can then be manipulated into ninjutsu and genjutsu  through chakra control, and chakra can be converted into many different things.  Chakra CAN EXIST  AS and CAN BE converted into _purely Spiritual energy_.   and behind the other techniques we know aren't
> :
> *One of the Yin Release techniques,
> that create form out of nothingness.
> ...



No it doesn't stand.

You continue to conflate the things chakra can do with actually *being those things*.

Chakra can be turned into fire, yet chakra is not fire and fire still exists distinctly separate from chakra.



> The fact that Minato can split his mental energy (which is explicitly stated to be the soul) into another Minato proves the soul can and is always cloned with arms. You can't offer an example otherwise. Ino's soul has arms and so does choji's:



We know souls do not get cloned because we see 5 souls exist the shinigami.

5 souls in, 5 souls out.



> Dude, with each post you do the same thing you accuse me of doing.  Sticking to your own headcanon no matter what I do.



No.

Counting the released souls isn't headcanon.

Saying there was secretly 8 that went in and merged offscreen is.

Not that I expect you to accept the difference.



> Mei's statement stands. The mechanics of the mind transfer technique still stands. Minato's soul in Naruto still stands. Hagoromo's statements still stands. Kabuto's statement about Oro's soul trying to take him over still stands. The soul is literally the consciousness.



Yet none of these examples tells us the soul IS chakra or vice versa.

That's because they are two distinct things that exist without the other.



> And boy, the mental gymnastics when it comes to Hiruzen's shadow clones. It's established that clones have their own consciousness. They have their own soul.



You simply conflate consciousness with soul.



> They cast their own jutsu. Meaning they have their own soul and with soul arms.



Or they share 1 soul, as indicated by 5 souls exiting the shinigami.



> Plus, even with your own strawman argument, you are wrong. Orochimaru's soul has TWO arms:



sigh

Oro has two arms BUT 1 SOUL.

The soul isn't two arms two legs a head and a torso WHAT THE FUCK.



> Yet when the reaper stomach is opened, those two arm souls were seen fused as one, wherein that one soul entered Oro before it  separated again and revitalized Oro's's soul's arms:



It's one soul dude. It's not a bunch of pieces that secretly fuse together. Literally the least logical interpretation, but you gotta wank Itachi no matter what.



> I can say the same about you. But I won't ASSUME that your _*apparent '*_disinterest' in the truth is static. People can change. Or Maybe I didn't present my argument clearly enough.   If a teacher doesn't teach the student well then the student won't learn.



Let's take a look at the real answer once again.

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal


----------



## MaruUchiha (Dec 26, 2019)

Totsuka Blade downplayers still getting decapitated i see

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Counting the released souls isn't headcanon.



Yeah, but you refuse to count the souls that entered. 8 entered. Denying that is what is headcanon. Never said 5 leaving was headcanon dude.




ShinAkuma said:


> Yet none of these examples tells us the soul IS chakra or vice versa.
> 
> That's because they are two distinct things that exist without the other.



It does. Mei tells us the soul is chakra. We have seen souls casting jutsu even without a physical body (so where is the bodily energy that comes from actual living cells coming from?) Oh wait, yin release is chakra converted into spiritual energy. So spiritual energy alone can be chakra, which means the souls already have what they need to cast jutsu. Still haven't accepted her character statement I see. 


ShinAkuma said:


> You simply conflate consciousness with soul.



The soul is mental energy and it IS the consciousness. We are told this. You don't accept it. why? Snipped the rest because based on false premise





ShinAkuma said:


> Oro has two arms BUT 1 SOUL.



Yeah one soul but it was fractionated right? What happens when you divide one thing? YOU GET TWO. I already proved shadow clones have souls. dividing your chakra to create x  shadow clones creates that many souls.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 26, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Yeah, but you refuse to count the souls that entered. 8 entered. Denying that is what is headcanon. Never said 5 leaving was headcanon dude.



No, *you say 8 entered* but that's your interpretation based on circular logic via an unproven premise of cloned souls. That's *your headcanon*.

The actual canon only gives us 1 count of 5 souls leaving. That count contradicts your *belief* that 8 went in, hence your belief is invalid.



> It does. Mei tells us the soul is chakra.



No she doesn't.



> We have seen souls casting jutsu even without a physical body (so where is the bodily energy that comes from actual living cells coming from?) Oh wait, yin release is chakra converted into spiritual energy. So spiritual energy alone can be chakra, which means the souls already have what they need to cast jutsu. Still haven't accepted her character statement I see.



Nobody said souls couldn't use chakra, so more non sequitur garbage.



> The soul is mental energy



No.

I don't care about your fanfiction.



> Yeah one soul but it was fractionated right? What happens when you divide one thing? YOU GET TWO.



The manga doesn't ever say a soul gets divided. *You say that* but I don't care what you say.

Let's take a look at the real answer once again.

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> No she doesn't.


Yes she does. Already posted the scan.




ShinAkuma said:


> Nobody said souls couldn't use chakra, so more non sequitur garbage.



And i never said you said they couldn't. The point is that you are ignoring that chakra can exist as spiritual energy, and those made purely of spiritual energy can make/produce chakra without the need of any physical energy. That just proves that the soul itself , despite being mental energy, is also chakra. Case in point. Minato was stated to place a piece of his chakra in Naruto. Kakashi called this mental energy. we know chakra can exist as purely mental energy  due to yin release.



ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> I don't care about your fanfiction.



Yes. We are explicitly told this by Kakashi and Sakura, and Shikamaru AND Databook. I don't care about your denial of facts. The spirit was used interchangeably with mental energy by everyone whoever talked about it.




ShinAkuma said:


> The manga doesn't ever say a soul gets divided. *You say that* but I don't care what you say.



Manga said it. Minato putting some of his mental energy, synonymous with soul, in Naruto created a clone with his own consciousness/awareness.

Snipped the rest due to false premise.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 26, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Yes she does. Already posted the scan.



No.

You conflating the things you want to conflate doesn't mean the manga does.



> And i never said you said they couldn't.



Then that irrelevant tirade is....irrelevant.



> The point is that you are ignoring that chakra can exist as spiritual energy,



I already covered this.

Chakra can exist as many things but that *doesn't make chakra those things.*



> Yes.



No.

You conflate multiple different things and toss them all in as "chakra".

Just because you are incapable of separating your conflation from what the manga actually tells us isn't my problem.



> Manga said it. Minato putting some of his mental energy, synonymous with soul, in Naruto created a clone with his own consciousness/awareness.



None of these are defined as the soul.

Again you keep conflating anything you can with the soul.

Let's try again.

The manga doesn't ever say a soul gets divided. *You say that* but I don't care what you say.

Let's take a look at the real answer once again.

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 28, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> You conflating the things you want to conflate doesn't mean the manga does.



She said the word  CHAKRA. Idk what else to tell you here.



ShinAkuma said:


> Chakra can exist as many things but that *doesn't make chakra those things.*



Actually it does. That's the basis of why Preta Path can still absorb Jiraiya's Goemon. . When Naruto transforms into shuriken he is still naruto.



ShinAkuma said:


> Just because you are incapable of separating your conflation from what the manga actually tells us isn't my problem.





ShinAkuma said:


> None of these are defined as the soul.



Yes they were. No matter what translation you look at, Dan was called either a spirit/ghost/soul, sometimes 2 out of those 3 words used interchangeably on the same page. I already linked the scans for those. Ino's technique was stated to transfer her soul verbatim by Shikamaru and databook. 

Kakashi tells us that Ino's spirit is what travels the distance to her target. This is directly stated to be mental energy by Sakura. Putting together the previous links I gave you,  databook uses soul synonymously with spirit, synonymously with mind and synonymously with  , as does the English dictionary. Even if these things are separate, they are still very, VERY  tightly linked.

There is no reason to assume they are separated in this context.  We have seen that when people die and their souls depart, the conciousness persists in the soul. There is nothing functionally different about what Minato did compared to Oro. They both leaked their mental energy into their targets along with their chakra, creating a separate consciousness. There is no reason for Oro to have separated his consciousness from his soul, when it benefits him in every way. NO REASON AT ALL LMAO.  If Minato doing the same thing created a clone in Naruto with functional arms(it could cast a jutsu), then the same thing would have happened for Oro who specializes in immortality.







ShinAkuma said:


> Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.
> 
> Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal


1)
Not disproven. Oro's soul can be cloned and none of his clones evidently have arms. the OG cannot be identified by lack of arms. Two, EVEN IF my premise  of cloned souls was wrong, his soul has no way of returning to his OG body with any of his already established abilities or showings. So you would still be incorrect.

2)
Totsuka seals the soul for sure (and along with the body obviously), just as DB3 states. We have seen that when Kabuto had other Edo Tensei under direct control, like A3, Zabuza, Haku, landing killing blows on them and sealing them didn't magically give them their personality back and rescind the control. They were sealed while still being mindless. ,  the.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 28, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> She said the word  CHAKRA. Idk what else to tell you here.



Yeah but you read it as "soul" for some reason.



> Actually it does.



Ok sure.

You just proved that a soul isn't chakra by virtue that Preta Path doesn't absorb souls and that Nagato needs a completely different path to do so.

You've debunked yourself for what? The 4th time now?

Mental gymnastics incoming.



> Yes they were.



None of the chakra examples are defined as a soul.

if it's a soul they call it a soul.



> Kakashi tells us that Ino's spirit is what travels the distance to her target. This is directly stated to be mental energy by Sakura. Putting together the previous links I gave you,  databook uses soul synonymously with spirit, synonymously with mind and synonymously with  , as does the English dictionary. Even if these things are separate, they are still very, VERY  tightly linked.



You have done nothing to show that chakra is a soul. We already know chakra based techniques can interact with souls. (RDS) Showing that there are other chakra based techniques capable of interacting with souls doesn't change anything.



> There is no reason to assume they are separated in this context.



Sure.

Mind and soul are separate. Just because they interact does not make them the same thing.

You keep conflating this.



> We have seen that when people die and their souls depart, the conciousness persists in the soul.



Yes it persists in the soul but it *isn't the soul*.



> 1)
> Not disproven.



Yes disproven.

The original  fractured soul is what Oro retrieved from RDS, telling us the reader that he had the original Oro's soul. Therefore Oro's soul was not sealed for all time.

That's how disproven works.



> Oro's soul can be cloned and none of his clones evidently have arms. the OG cannot be identified by lack of arms. Two, EVEN IF my premise  of cloned souls was wrong, his soul has no way of returning to his OG body with any of his already established abilities or showings. So you would still be incorrect.



Sure I guess but Oro hasn't had his original body since part 1, so it wasn't even his original body that Totsuka sealed.

Besides the point is Totsuka's no limit hype is disproven, which it is. If you alternate bodies you can bypass the physical seal. If you have a transcendent consciousness you can bypass the metaphysical seal. As a result is fails to live up to the hype.

Which is why no limits fallacies are.......fallacies.



> 2)
> Totsuka seals the soul for sure (and along with the body obviously), just as DB3 states. We have seen that when Kabuto had other Edo Tensei under direct control, like A3, Zabuza, Haku, landing killing blows on them and sealing them didn't magically give them their personality back and rescind the control. They were sealed while still being mindless. ,  the.



This has nothing to do with my point.

To recap for the 100th time:

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal


----------



## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi jumps not in Susanoo jams Yata Mirror into kaguya then puts totsuka in the open wound. Gg



Best statement material right? Lol


----------



## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

"Itachi beats Kaguya top notch God tier with Totuksa Blade"



....

"Itachi is not overrated you fools just underrate him as per usual "

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 28, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yeah but you read it as "soul" for some reason.




Because the only thing leaving Madara's body at the time was his soul bud.




ShinAkuma said:


> Ok sure.
> 
> You just proved that a soul isn't chakra by virtue that Preta Path doesn't absorb souls and that Nagato needs a completely different path to do so.
> 
> ...




Preta Path wasn't able to absorb Jiraiya's genjutsu chakra If I'm not mistaken. The yin release chakra for Frog song is transmitted through the sound, and Preta Path had a barrier up at the time. so Preta Path may have limits as I said before.





ShinAkuma said:


> if it's a soul they call it a soul.



lol dude.


HEART AND SOUL. Inb4 Shikamaru meant her beating, fleshy heart lol. heart  in this context means the  heart regarded as the center of a person's thoughts and emotions, especially love or compassion. And SOUL. Which Kakashi verifies by a KNOWN SYNONYM called spirit dude lol.


We see ino splitting said soul into two parts for two targets





ShinAkuma said:


> Sure I guess but Oro hasn't had his original body since part 1, so it wasn't even his original body that Totsuka sealed.
> 
> Besides the point is Totsuka's no limit hype is disproven, which it is. If you alternate bodies you can bypass the physical seal. If you have a transcendent consciousness you can bypass the metaphysical seal. As a result is fails to live up to the hype.
> 
> Which is why no limits fallacies are.......fallacies.




Its hype is that seals the soul and body that it pierces. When did it ever pierce the soul in Anko lol?  Furthermore, its not disproven, because Oro has no way of soul jumping from body to body without very specific requirements. Which is why I said, EVEN IF my premise was wrong, it's still a deus ex machina. We were told that Sasuke had reversed the soul transfer technique on Oro. Later when Sasuke's chakra went to zero, Zetsu said Oro's chakra was shoving itself to the surface. It was the recollection of this very event that caused Sasuke to try the same idea on anko. We are told in the databook that the chakra released from her curse mark was  what was used to revive Oro, not the chakra from Totsuka gourd. And nothing in the entry says anything about summoning his soul out of the gourd and we also see no manga panel illustrating this escape.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 28, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Because the only thing leaving Madara's body at the time was his soul bud.



His chakra was leaving as well, hence Mei's comment.

Two things happen when an Edo is dispelled - their soul goes back to the pure world and their chakra disappears. You've magically decided they must be the same thing.



> Preta Path wasn't able to absorb Jiraiya's genjutsu chakra If I'm not mistaken. The yin release chakra for Frog song is transmitted through the sound, and Preta Path had a barrier up at the time. so Preta Path may have limits as I said before.



This has nothing to do with anything.

Preta path absorbs chakra. Human path absorbs souls.

2 separate paths because THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS.



> lol dude.
> 
> 
> HEART AND SOUL. Inb4 Shikamaru meant her beating, fleshy heart lol. heart  in this context means the  heart regarded as the center of a person's thoughts and emotions, especially love or compassion. And SOUL. Which Kakashi verifies by a KNOWN SYNONYM called spirit dude lol.



You just proved that the center for thoughts and emotions is *separate from the soul*?!?!?

YOU JUST DEBUNKED YOURSELF FOR THE 5TH TIME LMAO

Amazing.

Your argument will continue to break down more and more as you attempt to reconcile via fanfiction the things that don't make sense with your version of events.



> We see ino splitting said soul into two parts for two targets



You keep saying copy/split/cloned/etc yet nothing tells us in the entire manga you can copy the soul. The other obvious choice is it's one soul occupying two bodies assuming that is actually her soul and not just her mind.



> Its hype is that seals the soul and body that it pierces.



Already covered this.

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

All the bases have been covered from the get go.



> When did it ever pierce the soul in Anko lol?  Furthermore, its not disproven, because Oro has no way of soul jumping from body to body without very specific requirements. Which is why I said, EVEN IF my premise was wrong, it's still a deus ex machina. We were told that Sasuke had reversed the soul transfer technique on Oro. Later when Sasuke's chakra went to zero, Zetsu said Oro's chakra was shoving itself to the surface. It was the recollection of this very event that caused Sasuke to try the same idea on anko. We are told in the databook that the chakra released from her curse mark was  what was used to revive Oro, not the chakra from Totsuka gourd. And nothing in the entry says anything about summoning his soul out of the gourd and we also see no manga panel illustrating this escape.



The soul that was released from Anko had the fractured soul of the Oro sealed by Totsuka, hence it is the same soul, hence it bypassed the sealing of Totsuka.

It doesn't matter that you don't like it or you feel you don't have enough evidence. The facts are the facts - Oro's real soul, somehow, was released from his Totsuka seal via being revived, bypassing Totsuka's hype.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 28, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> His chakra was leaving as well, hence Mei's comment.
> 
> Two things happen when an Edo is dispelled - their soul goes back to the pure world and their chakra disappears. You've magically decided they must be the same thing.


Ok, that's a possible interpretation I suppose if we only looked at it in isolation. But to me the word choice is telling. Bleachsoulevolution uses the wording stuck tightly.
Viz says it was separating as opposed to disappearing.  We know souls can carry chakra with them, because Obito still had his rikudo chakra when his soul departed from his bodily ashes.



ShinAkuma said:


> This has nothing to do with anything.
> 
> Preta path absorbs chakra. Human path absorbs souls.
> 
> 2 separate paths because THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS.



Yes, but what happens if Preta Path tries to absorb Hagoromo? Hagoromo said his body now exists as chakra, and he technically is also a soul.

And my point with Jiraiya's genjutsu is if Preta Path can't  even absorb chakra in the form of  spiritual energy (which is what yin release is) then why would it be able to absorb the spirit (if the spirit is chakra) ?



ShinAkuma said:


> You keep saying copy/split/cloned/etc yet nothing tells us in the entire manga you can copy the soul. The other obvious choice is it's one soul occupying two bodies assuming that is actually her soul and not just her mind.



 I already explained that at the very least, spirit and soul are the same thing. Explained it already for Dan. Dan calls himself a soul and controls himself with the spirit transformation technique and he was called a spirit/ghost by Chouza and that other shinobi depending on the translation. Shikamaru calls Ino's mental energy packet the sum of her heart and soul. Kakashi said it contains her spirit. Dosu as well for what it's worth.

and in the Viz Ino confirms 

The problem with the one soul for two body theory for Ino  is that we know that in order for mind transfer to work her mental energy projectile must enter her target(s) directly . If she is controlling both at the same time there must be two different packets because those Zetsu are two different people, and we also see that her mental energy actually splits in two after being ejected to enter both. How can one soul be in two different minds at once if it isn't cloned? And as I showed before, Ino's spirit  has always had a full set of arms legs and Ino when she appears in her target's psyche.

In principle, what Minato and Oro are doing is the same because they are splitting their mental energy into their targets along with their chakra in order to leak pieces of their conciousness. I believe this includes the soul because again, souls are needed to cast jutsu, and we saw Minato casting a jutsu for Naruto, not to mention his 'conciousness' had two arms and two legs. And I dare argue we have already seen Oro's clone that was inside Sasuke. He was initially disguised as 6 year old Sasuke but he was clearly present in Sasuke's psyche, and he clearly had arms, and was tempting him to draw on the curse mark's power.




ShinAkuma said:


> Your argument will continue to break down more and more as you attempt to reconcile via fanfiction the things that don't make sense with your version of events.



True, there is a distinction, but for the most part it hasn't come into play outside of the subject of controversy that is Oro. I would argue that Minato also placed his heart , consciousness, and soul into Naruto when he placed his mental energy and chakra inside of him because of what was mentioned above. If they are all heavily linked such that we have seldom seen them not travel as an group then they might as well be informally the  same thing. but i will be careful to treat them distinctly when needed now.




ShinAkuma said:


> The soul that was released from Anko had the fractured soul of the Oro sealed by Totsuka, hence it is the same soul, hence it bypassed the sealing of Totsuka.
> 
> It doesn't matter that you don't like it or you feel you don't have enough evidence. The facts are the facts - Oro's real soul, somehow, was released from his Totsuka seal via being revived, bypassing Totsuka's hype.



The problem here is consistency.  Even if I'm wrong about the cloned souls, the problem is, the limitations of Oro's soul transfer abilities were very clearly established:

a) 
b)  ,  who were just like anko, i



It was clear the range was limited, since the only problem was Sasuke getting near enough  to him in time.


Even the evil releasing method was already seen. Oro's soul was dormant in Sasuke's body. When conditions were right, Oro's soul and chakra could be forced to the surface, emerge in snakes, and then sprout the real Oro from said snakes, removing the curse mark.  But see, the catch is, it was already established Oro's soul was inside Sasuke. We know this because Sasuke reversed and reflected the soul transfer ritual. And there is only  one soul for Oro remember?  So for anko, she never once had Oro's soul in her by this logic. Yet the curse mark itself was released and Oro's soul came out of her. But there was no way for his soul to get inside of her. He hasn't remotely interacted with Anko since P1. We know the consciousness inside of Anko was also different than that of the OG Oro.  We also know that Oro used his once per three year soul transfer on Zetsu, meaning there was literally no point in time where he could have moved his soul into anko. And you still have the problem of the genjutsu, Oro's already  poor  track record, and Itachi's feats of subduing what was basically an upgraded Oro (SM Kabuto) with genjutsu portrayed below that of Totsuka's. Totsuka already sealed the soul of a being far stronger than Oro in Gyuki boosted Nagato. Everything that was established prior to Oro's "revival" makes it out to be an inconsistency.




And inconsistencies are ignored unless we have good reason not, so I am taking this seriously. It's not about disliking or not enough evidence.  *It may be a fact *that Oro's soul escaped, but that escape doesn't inherently bypass the hype. If anything it affirms the hype, because Kishi had to plot no jutsu Oro's return, breaking all previously established rules so Oro can serve as the medium through which the 4 previous hokages enter the war.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 28, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Ok, that's a possible interpretation I suppose if we only looked at it in isolation. But to me the word choice is telling. Bleachsoulevolution uses the wording stuck tightly.
> Viz says it was separating as opposed to disappearing.  We know souls can carry chakra with them, because Obito still had his rikudo chakra when his soul departed from his bodily ashes.



This is mental gymnastics.

If an Edo dispels the soul goes back to the pure world and the chakra would therefore disappear. The chakra cannot disappear until the soul is released. When Mei says "chakra" she means chakra. She doesn't secretly mean soul, because Naruto has souls, and ninjas know they exist. If she wanted to say soul that's what she would say.

Stop trying to conflate the two terms we know are treated as unique. I can't help but think this is motivated purely by a desire to maintain your flawed premise.



> Yes, but what happens if Preta Path tries to absorb Hagoromo? Hagoromo said his body now exists as chakra, and he technically is also a soul.



Preta path absorbs his chakra and his soul return to the pure world.

Chakra and soul are two distinct qualities.



> And my point with Jiraiya's genjutsu is if Preta Path can't  even absorb chakra in the form of  spiritual energy (which is what yin release is) then why would it be able to absorb the spirit (if the spirit is chakra) ?



Maybe the sound doesn't actually carry chakra in it?

Or maybe Preta could protect himself however he was prevented from doing so by virtue of being forced to absorb Jiraiya's Katon during the crucial point of the song? Anyway this example isn't clear due to how the scene went down.

The point remains - Preta absorbs chakra and human absorbs souls. There would be no need for two unique paths if chakra and souls *were the same thing*. The implication is clear - chakra and the soul are uniquely different traits.



> I already explained that at the very least, spirit and soul are the same thing. Explained it already for Dan. Dan calls himself a soul and controls himself with the spirit transformation technique and he was called a spirit/ghost by Chouza and that other shinobi depending on the translation. Shikamaru calls Ino's mental energy packet the sum of her heart and soul. Kakashi said it contains her spirit. Dosu as well for what it's worth.
> 
> and in the Viz Ino confirms
> 
> The problem with the one soul for two body theory for Ino  is that we know that in order for mind transfer to work her mental energy projectile must enter her target(s) directly .



Mental energy is *not the soul*. If mental energy is the catalyst for the take over then she simply splits her mental energy between two targets.



> If she is controlling both at the same time there must be two different packets because those Zetsu are two different people, and we also see that her mental energy actually splits in two after being ejected to enter both. How can one soul be in two different minds at once if it isn't cloned? And as I showed before, Ino's spirit  has always had a full set of arms legs and Ino when she appears in her target's psyche.



Her souls remains in her body, it's her mind that that takes over the victim. If her soul actually left her body she would be dead as soul removal kills people in Naruto.

"Spiritual energy" is not the soul it's a form of chakra. 



> In principle, what Minato and Oro are doing is the same because they are splitting their mental energy into their targets along with their chakra in order to leak pieces of their conciousness. I believe this includes the soul because again, souls are needed to cast jutsu, and we saw Minato casting a jutsu for Naruto, not to mention his 'conciousness' had two arms and two legs. And I dare argue we have already seen Oro's clone that was inside Sasuke. He was initially disguised as 6 year old Sasuke but he was clearly present in Sasuke's psyche, and he clearly had arms, and was tempting him to draw on the curse mark's power.



Your theories concerning RDS vs the curse seal are not relevant to the discussion. The point is souls do not clone and have never been indicated to clone in the manga.

However even if they did that base is covered because oro's soul would have been "cloned" prior to RDS. The released Oro has the real soul bypassing Totsuka.

It doesn't matter what you believe, cloned or no, because Oro having the original fractured soul still results in the same hype busting conclusion.



> True, there is a distinction, but for the most part it hasn't come into play outside of the subject of controversy that is Oro. I would argue that Minato also placed his heart , consciousness, and soul into Naruto when he placed his mental energy and chakra inside of him because of what was mentioned above. If they are all heavily linked such that we have seldom seen them not travel as an group then they might as well be informally the  same thing. but i will be careful to treat them distinctly when needed now.



Finally making some headway.




> The problem here is consistency.  Even if I'm wrong about the cloned souls, the problem is, the limitations of Oro's soul transfer abilities were very clearly established:



It could very well be inconsistent, but that doesn't disprove my point.

Snipped the stuff proving the inconsistency because I'm not concerned with that one way or the other and it doesn't impact my argument.



> And inconsistencies are ignored unless we have good reason not, so I am taking this seriously. It's not about disliking or not enough evidence.  *It may be a fact *that Oro's soul escaped, but that escape doesn't inherently bypass the hype. If anything it affirms the hype, because Kishi had to plot no jutsu Oro's return, breaking all previously established rules so Oro can serve as the medium through which the 4 previous hokages enter the war.



Whoa slow down there bud. You don't get to invoke battledome etiquette why *simultaneously ignoring the No Limits Fallacy*. This argument you are making would get laughed out of the battledome the second you ignored the no limits fallacy.

If you want to invoke this precept I'm fine with that but then you must accept the no limits fallacy.

Look I gave you the answer that covered your bases. I will post it again. I may seem like a broken record but that's because the answer is right here in front of you all along:

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

The hype is not affirmed because Oro was not sealed for all time. The hype is proven to be fallacious, which was always my point.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Dec 31, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Maybe the sound doesn't actually carry chakra in it?
> 
> Or maybe Preta could protect himself however he was prevented from doing so by virtue of being forced to absorb Jiraiya's Katon during the crucial point of the song? Anyway this example isn't clear due to how the scene went down.
> 
> The point remains - Preta absorbs chakra and human absorbs souls. There would be no need for two unique paths if chakra and souls *were the same thing*. The implication is clear - chakra and the soul are uniquely different traits.



. Yet he didn't have preta Path turn on Gakido to protect himself or the other pains. We already saw that Preta Path works like a vaccum. It sucked in a giant lake of oil despite the fact the barrier was no where near as wide as the area of space the lake covered, . Even if he was absorbing a fireball, it wouldn't have stopped him from absorbing genjutsu.

And the sound itself clearly carries the yin release chakra, otherwise how are the pains in genjutsu? Genjutsu is always carried through a medium. Even if it doesn't absorb the sound, it should absorb the chakra being carried through the sound.  We default to what is established. Preta Path failed to absorb genjutsu, which is chakra in the form of spiritual energy. So we have no reason to believe it can absorb chakra in all forms. So if the soul is chakra, preta path's inability to absorb it doesn't tell us much, as preta path isn't absolute.


ShinAkuma said:


> Mental energy is *not the soul*. If mental energy is the catalyst for the take over then she simply splits her mental energy between two targets.





ShinAkuma said:


> Her souls remains in her body, it's her mind that that takes over the victim. If her soul actually left her body she would be dead as soul removal kills people in Naruto.
> 
> "Spiritual energy" is not the soul it's a form of chakra.



Mental energy isn't the soul,  correct, but it carries the soul in it for this SPECIFIC ninjutsu. If the mental energy splits then the soul must split, because the soul is inside and the soul enters the victims' minds. All you're doing is repeating what i already said. Yin release seems to be associated with anything related to the spirit or spiritual energy. Spiritual energy comes from the soul in the first place. 

The naruto wiki's informal description doesn't help us here, and it certainly doesn't trump what we are explicitly told in the manga. Dan killed tons of people with his spirit transformation technique, wherein his soul leaves his body, yet never killed him. So the premise that souls leaving a body always causes death can't be true.  
And before you say I'm a hypocrite,  I'm citing the wikia here ONLY because it says the same thing the manga and databook does, which I have already linked, so its useful to see that wikia thinks the same thing. Even in the article on mind transfer, the wiki links you to the same manga pages that I already linked you. And we are back to square one. The wiki isn't incorrect but we must be very careful about the formality of the source. The fact that Shikamaru says Heart AND soul is crucial.

We can assume that mind transfer technique has a similiar protective function to Dan's spirit technique to ensure the user's soul can reenter their body with no negative side effect. The consciousness is transferred to the victim, but so is the soul/spirit.  All of it is packaged in the mental energy (chakra) that Ino emits is the point. This is explicitly stated by Kakashi, Shikamaru, Databook and Dosu. Ino also clearly tells us that the jutsu takes over her target's heart and soul, so it's not just the consciousness involved here. We  also even know this just from the wiki article you linked:

"Users can also perform their own jutsu while possessing another, notably their  skills."

To perform your own jutsu you need a soul.




ShinAkuma said:


> Your theories concerning RDS vs the curse seal are not relevant to the discussion. The point is souls do not clone and have never been indicated to clone in the manga.



There are four things that explicitly and implicitly indicate the soul can clone.

1) Ino's mind transfer technique cloned her soul into two different targets.
2) Soul is NEEDED to cast ninjutsu, as that's where you draw spiritual energy from. Kurama has a soul because it can cast bijuu dama, a ninjutsu. In fact, Kurama is a soul itself. It has been called a spirit multiple times since the beginning of the manga. And we know it was cloned into two different Kuramas via RDS. I know you know the soul is needed, because you pointed out Oro can't cast much of his ninjutsu without his soul's arms.
3)  Shadow clones are 100 percent copies of the original bar constitution. They cast ninjutsu belonging to the original, including ones with handsigns, completely  independent of the original. KCM Naruto while fighting Nagato and Itachi had no idea what his clones fighting A3 on the other war front were doing until they poofed, so clearly its independent. If that wasn't obvious proof that shadow clones have souls, I don't know what is.

4) Hiruzen's usage of RDS. You still keep stonewalling me on this, but I'll bring it up again.
For RDS to work, YOU MUST GIVE UP YOUR SOUL. You cannot just offer a piece of your chakra. If it was that easy, then Minato wouldn't have needed to die at all from simply using it , as Kushina warned. the Shinigami is a on a SOUL ONLY DIET. Hiruzen's shadow clones must have had souls to give up. If it was one soul for all 3 hiruzen clones, and one soul for all 3 targets (hashi, tobi, oro),  that still proves the soul was fractionated because you can only seal one target per soul. By your logic, as soon as Hashi OR Tobirama, let alone both of them, were sealed, the reaper should have gobbled up Hiruzen's supposed singular soul, killing the old man before he could dream of stealing Orochimaru's. Further,  Hiruzen explicitly told us that HIS soul would only go once he took Oro's soul.  So if its one soul per target, how did Hiruzen cheat the reaper into sealing both Hashi and tobirama  along with Oro's arms.  Thats one soul for 3 targets. Big hint, he didn't. His soul was divided into 3 copies, each hiruzen had 1/3 the soul. 1/3rd was for Hashi, another 1/3rd for Tobi, another 1/3 for Oro. Still a total of 3 separate souls though. . , then where did the chakra go? why were they later not seen when Orochimaru opened the reaper's belly. They wouldn't just disappear into thin air. Not even Kurama disappeared, he was seen again inside Minato.  So its still a huge hole in your theory. My theory is that the souls reunited with their original, a concept we have already seen multiple times. Your theory still MUST account for what happened to those hiruzen "chakra" or whatever it is you think they are. Occam's razor says we call them souls since that's exactly what they look like, and its already established by the RDS mechanics and Shadow clone mechanics that shadow clones MUST have souls.



ShinAkuma said:


> This is mental gymnastics.
> 
> If an Edo dispels the soul goes back to the pure world and the chakra would therefore disappear. The chakra cannot disappear until the soul is released. When Mei says "chakra" she means chakra. She doesn't secretly mean soul, because Naruto has souls, and ninjas know they exist. If she wanted to say soul that's what she would say.
> 
> Stop trying to conflate the two terms we know are treated as unique. I can't help but think this is motivated purely by a desire to maintain your flawed premise.



 I admitted that what Mei said on its own is unclear, but if you wanted to look at in a vaccum, you could still make arguments that she is equating the soul to chakra. This is simply because Obito's ridoku chakra that he stole from Madara persisted in his soul and he loaned some of this chakra to kakashi. When Obito's soul left Kakashi, the chakra didn't stay with Kakashi but left. The chakra never disappeared, it at minimum persisted in the soul.  Madara's "chakra" wasn't disappearing at any point in those panels. All we see is a soul trying to escape the Edo body, and then the soul later firmly clinging to it.  the fact she didn't use the world soul but the word chakra instead can be interpreted to mean soul is chakra, but its not enough. You have a somewhat reasonable alternate interpretation, but it's debateable.

But the problem comes when you combine Mei's statements with others. I already told you. Naruto knew he was being poessessed by Ashura's GHOST, which Hagoromo called chakra. Hagoromo no longer has a physical body, but says he now exists as chakra. Then there is Kurama. , and we saw that a technique that sucks souls ripped out identical material from Kurama as it did to other people. We saw that removing half of its soul caused Kurama to shrink in size. Removing Oro's souls arms from his body may have given him necrosis, but it didn't make his arms shrink in size.  If he is a soul, and you rip out of half of his soul, then half of the soul will be left in quantity. We have seen that when other people have lost half their chakra or more, their size didn't just magically shrink. This is why I believe Kurama is a soul, and there is no "secondary function" of the RDS.  The fact he also lost half of its chakra also makes sense. chakra is the combo of mental and spiritual energy.  Say if you have 500 mental energy and 500 physical energy you can make, 500 chakra. if he lost half of his spirit, that means half of his source of mental energy is gone,  which  means mental energy is dropped to  250 , which means  chakra also drops to 250 even though you still have 500 physical energy. Kishi never explained how the whole yin yang kurama thing works, as they seem to be identical in every way bar skin color. But everything makes sense if you take into context that the soul IS chakra. Yin kurama should have 250 mental energy but no physical energy.  But it can cast jutsu? why because it's just a pure soul, the same way other souls can cast jutsu despite having no living bodily cells to draw physical energy from. And it makes perfect sense. I already posted you the scan. The Great Rikudo  sage created Kurama using yin and yang release. Half of its chakra is made from yin release  (chakra in the form of spiritual energy) and the other half yang (chakra in the form of physical energy.  The whole thing is still a spirit. So even though  Yang Kurama lost its"  Yin chakra,  it's still a soul with chakra in the form of physical energy, which means deep down it still has actual mental and physical energy with which to create chakra. Kinda confusing, but it seems to work out. Either way, the main point stands.




ShinAkuma said:


> Preta path absorbs his chakra and his soul return to the pure world.
> 
> Chakra and soul are two distinct qualities.





Except he said he wanders the world AS chakra. So his everything should be absorbed. It's no different than The Gedo mazou sealing tailed beasts (who have souls) with Nagato's nine dragon seals.  Their chakra AND consciousness is absorbed into the statue, not just their chakra. Preta Path, if it absorbs chakra no matter the form, should absorb Hagoromo in his entirety, 




ShinAkuma said:


> Whoa slow down there bud. You don't get to invoke battledome etiquette why *simultaneously ignoring the No Limits Fallacy*. This argument you are making would get laughed out of the battledome the second you ignored the no limits fallacy.




 Good thing that I never  actually used the no limits fallacy 

No limits fallacy says we shouldn't ASSUME that something has no limits, and we also shouldn't raise it limits beyond what was shown, if the ONLY JUSTIFICATION is that it wasn't shown to have a limit. Guess what, I didn't assume shit. The writer AND Black Zetsu said that the blade was limitless in it's ability to seal, and even that would only apply to the narutoverse. It doesn't mean it would apply to cross-universe fictional battles, where no limits fallacy tends to be a  bigger  issue. In fact, I know of several characters outside of the universe who have their own absolute abilities that would counter Totsuka.   Black Zetsu was my primary source, because he said this in an UNBIASED Context. Why is it unbiased?

1) Because he didn't care whether Itachi won against Sasuke. In fact, he was leaning slightly toward Sasuke after Tsukuyomi 'flopped'
2) Knew Itachi was a spy and a threat to his and Tobi's plans, no reason to wank an enemy unnecessarily. He respected Itachi's abilities but never considered him invincible or anything like that until he identified the artifacts in his possession, two artifacts whose hype has existed much longer than Itachi had been living and breathing.
3) information specialist since the beginning of the lore. He particularly studies jutsu and has a wide AOE sensing abilitiy and espionage jutsu. Even if we ignored the whole 1000 year lifespan thing, he still was the go to person for intel for the Akatsuki, and was entrusted as such by Madara himself,  Pain and Tobi.


You're only counter-argument was citing Kaguya, someone who hasn't been seen alive for over a 1000 years and information on her was shoddy to begin with, and information deteriorates over time. . Hagoromo lived in Kaguya's time, and didn't even know she had transformed into the juubi. Black Zetsu is the most credible source on Kaguya* and also the least credible source at the same time.* He is biased in favor of her. He said anything to inflate her abilities when it came to Naruto and Sasuke. His credibility on her went out the window when he said she, yet she got    and   He wanks Kaguya because its his mother and he is on a fighting context. He isn't just a spectator he is participating directly in the battle on her behalf.  And Kaguya's credibility is null as well, she didn't know about transformation jutsu, that's what happens when you have been asleep for 1000 years. Naruto got his intel from Sasuke, who got his intel from Hagoromo, who was shown to not know things that Zetsu knew.

If there are conflicting character statements, a chain of credibility is done to see who is the most trustworthy and most likely to be correct.

So the chain of credibility on Totsuka is DB3 (author) > or equal to Unbiased Zetsu (Itachi v Hebi Sasuke fight)  > Biased Zetsu (Kaguya fight ) > Hagoromo> Kaguya.

DB3 and Pain Arc Zetsu reign supreme.


ShinAkuma said:


> The hype is not affirmed because Oro was not sealed for all time. The hype is proven to be fallacious, which was always my point.



Inconsistencies and outliers should AND WILL  be ignored if proven to be such. I proved that Orochimaru didn't have the abilities to pull off what he supposedly pulled off.

The bolded quote can't be correct. Oro's consciousness, or a copy of it, persisted since the day it was placed in Anko. In that sense, he was never dead. The flesh from kabuto and this conciousness is enough to make an Oro shadow clone according to you.  But we know his soul was inside as well, because we already see that his soul was present in the body as it emerged. It's identical to how he revived himself against Itachi. There was no need for someone to release the curse mark in Hebi Sasuke's case, because Sasuke already did that for him by going to Curse mark Stage Two.  And when each of the sound 5 died or were low on chakra, we never saw Orochimarus erupting out of them. That clearly only happens if Oro's soul was already inside you. all the evidence suggests this. So If you were to prove the clone souls wrong, I would select the italicized and underlined theory, but its still plot no jutsu.

I'll summarize again:
If he always had the ability to "teleport or transport" his soul into hosts remotely that had a piece of his conciousness, then why didn't he ever use it when his life and arms were on the line? When he could have gotten Sasuke back in P1? When he could have just put his soul inside Kabuto instead of Anko which doesn't have a curse mark that would need to be released by a third party? Because he never had said ability until Kishi deus ex machina'd it into existence.

And he never would have had the time or opportunity necessary to create a new jutsu that could pull that off. After Sasuke absorbed him, he was completely suppressed. After that, he would have been sealed and trapped in a genjutsu he has 0 chance of breaking.  And even if we pretend like he had the time/opportunity, he still can't create any new and advanced techniques because his chakra control is fucked up due to the lack of his soul's arms. It's literally impossible with all established facts. So inconsistency. Thus hype IS affirmed. He felt the need to use deus ex machina instead  because he knew he had no way of legitimately busting him out.  That's often why deus ex machina is employed in fiction in the first place. The hype is affirmed because Kishi needed to cheat to bring Oro back from his demise. If Oro could do it on his own, he could have reasonably have done it before he even got sealed in the gourd, and then he could have profited once Itachi died since Sasuke had no stamina left to fight.



ShinAkuma said:


> Snipped the stuff proving the inconsistency because I'm not concerned with that one way or the other and it doesn't impact my argument.



You should be concerned. Because as I said, even if I accept your alternate theory, I showed you what my end game argument is. Oro's feat is an inconsistency. Literally impossible across the board. And from the looks of it, you're intuition seems to be in agreement:



ShinAkuma said:


> It could very well be inconsistent, but that doesn't disprove my point.



So looks like this upcoming  new year is gonna start on a good foot.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 31, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> . Yet he didn't have preta Path turn on Gakido to protect himself or the other pains. We already saw that Preta Path works like a vaccum. It sucked in a giant lake of oil despite the fact the barrier was no where near as wide as the area of space the lake covered, . Even if he was absorbing a fireball, it wouldn't have stopped him from absorbing genjutsu.



Has Preta ever been able to absorb two jutsu simultaneously?



> And the sound itself clearly carries the yin release chakra, otherwise how are the pains in genjutsu? Genjutsu is always carried through a medium. Even if it doesn't absorb the sound, it should absorb the chakra being carried through the sound. We default to what is established. Preta Path failed to absorb genjutsu, which is chakra in the form of spiritual energy. So we have no reason to believe it can absorb chakra in all forms. So if the soul is chakra, preta path's inability to absorb it doesn't tell us much, as preta path isn't absolute.



Preta was occupied absorbing another jutsu. Pretty sure it's never absorbed two jutsus at once. You have your answer.




> Mental energy isn't the soul,  correct, but it carries the soul in it for this SPECIFIC ninjutsu.



Sure.

But we have *no reason to assume the soul is split or copied vs shared*.

Considering that we have *never seen or been told a soul can be cloned we have no reason to assume it is.*



> The naruto wiki's informal description doesn't help us here, and it certainly doesn't trump what we are explicitly told in the manga. Dan killed tons of people with his spirit transformation technique, wherein his soul leaves his body, yet never killed him. So the premise that souls leaving a body always causes death can't be true.



Dan's soul never left his body.

You are conflating spirit (a form of chakra) with soul.

If Dan's soul could leave his body at his command he could have released himself from the Edo Tensei at any point.




> And before you say I'm a hypocrite,  I'm citing the wikia here ONLY because it says the same thing the manga and databook does, which I have already linked, so its useful to see that wikia thinks the same thing. Even in the article on mind transfer, the wiki links you to the same manga pages that I already linked you. And we are back to square one. The wiki isn't incorrect but we must be very careful about the formality of the source. The fact that Shikamaru says Heart AND soul is crucial.
> 
> We can assume that mind transfer technique has a similiar protective function to Dan's spirit technique to ensure the user's soul can reenter their body with no negative side effect. The consciousness is transferred to the victim, but so is the soul/spirit.  All of it is packaged in the mental energy (chakra) that Ino emits is the point. This is explicitly stated by Kakashi, Shikamaru, Databook and Dosu. Ino also clearly tells us that the jutsu takes over her target's heart and soul, so it's not just the consciousness involved here. We  also even know this just from the wiki article you linked:
> 
> ...



Literally neither of those links mention soul. 



> There are four things that explicitly and implicitly indicate the soul can clone.



There's zero actually.

Beyond that were such a thing viable you would think Oro would have fixed himself with it, instead he needed to release his soul from the shinigami.



> 1) Ino's mind transfer technique cloned her soul into two different targets.



No.

We have no reason to assume it's a cloning thing vs a sharing thing.

This is evidence of nothing.




> 2) Soul is NEEDED to cast ninjutsu, as that's where you draw spiritual energy from.



No.

Nowhere does it say you need a soul to cast ninjutsu. You are conflating soul and spirit.

Even tho you need spirit energy and physical energy to create chakra beings of *pure chakra* don't need to do this, so the restrictions on humans do not apply to Bijuu's.



> Kurama has a soul because it can cast bijuu dama, a ninjutsu.



He's a being of pure chakra, he doesn't need spirit energy to perform techniques.



> In fact, Kurama is a soul itself.



The Bijuu have not been said to carry a soul.



> It has been called a spirit multiple times since the beginning of the manga.



You keep conflating spirit and soul.



> And we know it was cloned into two different Kuramas via RDS.



It's not a clone?

It was split into it's yin/yang components.



> I know you know the soul is needed, because you pointed out Oro can't cast much of his ninjutsu without his soul's arms.



That isn't directly due to the soul. 

Losing that piece of his soul permanently incapacitated his hands physically so that he could not weave hand signs. He can still produce chakra and use ninjutsu that doesn't require handsigns. (Rashamon)



> 3)  Shadow clones are 100 percent copies of the original bar constitution.



So not 100%.



> They cast ninjutsu belonging to the original, including ones with handsigns, completely  independent of the original. KCM Naruto while fighting Nagato and Itachi had no idea what his clones fighting A3 on the other war front were doing until they poofed, so clearly its independent. If that wasn't obvious proof that shadow clones have souls, I don't know what is.



For one thing a soul isn't a requirement to cast ninjutsu. (technology in Boruto can cast ninjutsu) This is simply a flawed premise.

Second this is the same problem you have with the first example - you cannot prove if the soul is shared or copied.

Thirdly, none of this matters because these bases are covered with my original answer.

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

The hype is not affirmed because Oro was not sealed for all time. The hype is proven to be fallacious, which was always my point.



> 4) Hiruzen's usage of RDS. You still keep stonewalling me on this, but I'll bring it up again.
> For RDS to work, YOU MUST GIVE UP YOUR SOUL. You cannot just offer a piece of your chakra. If it was that easy, then Minato wouldn't have needed to die at all from simply using it , as Kushina warned. the Shinigami is a on a SOUL ONLY DIET. Hiruzen's shadow clones must have had souls to give up.



Yes they gave up their *one shared soul as proven by the soul release from the shinigami*.



> If it was one soul for all 3 hiruzen clones, and one soul for all 3 targets (hashi, tobi, oro),  that still proves the soul was fractionated because you can only seal one target per soul.



RDS requires *your soul and life to use* it doesn't require one soul per target.



> By your logic,



Not my logic because I never said Shiki Fujin requires one soul per target, you did.



> I admitted that what Mei said on its own is unclear, but if you wanted to look at in a vaccum, you could still make arguments that she is equating the soul to chakra.



She isn't because we know the soul and chakra are two distinct and unique traits.



> But the problem comes when you combine Mei's statements with others. I already told you. Naruto knew he was being poessessed by Ashura's GHOST, which Hagoromo called chakra. Hagoromo no longer has a physical body, but says he now exists as chakra.



This is already covered.

Chakra can replicate the effects and abilities of many things, but chakra is NOT THOSE THINGS.

Hags running around as chakra means just that - He is a being of chakra. That's it.



> Then there is Kurama. , and we saw that a technique that sucks souls ripped out identical material from Kurama as it did to other people. We saw that removing half of its soul caused Kurama to shrink in size.



Kurama didn't have it's soul removed. It was separated into two entities - Yin and Yang. You even posted the scan outlining this????



> Removing Oro's souls arms from his body may have given him necrosis, but it didn't make his arms shrink in size.



No shit. Oro had his soul removed.

Kurama, a being of *pure chakra* had half his chakra removed....

And....you JUST DEBUNKED YOURSELF AGAIN.

Kurama shrinking buy having half it's chakra removed proves it is different from what happened to Oro *who did not shrink*.

Bring on those mental gymnastics WOOOOOOOOOOO

Anyway I'm not interested in fielding more theories.

Theorize whatever you like, my original answer covers all the bases.



> Except he said he wanders the world AS chakra.



Yeah he is chakra. We know beings of pure chakra exists. This is a dead end.



> So his everything should be absorbed. It's no different than The Gedo mazou sealing tailed beasts (who have souls) with Nagato's nine dragon seals.  Their chakra AND consciousness is absorbed into the statue, not just their chakra. Preta Path, if it absorbs chakra no matter the form, should absorb Hagoromo in his entirety,



I have no idea what you're talking about here. When did anybody attempt to absorb Hags?



> Good thing that I never  actually used the no limits fallacy



By arbitrarily deciding that the jutsu has a limit far beyond what it has shown it's still an NLF.

The point of the NLF is to force us to stick to feats and reasonable extrapolations, not arbitrary targets that we determine because we like it.



> No limits fallacy says we shouldn't ASSUME that something has no limits, and we also shouldn't raise it limits beyond what was shown, if the ONLY JUSTIFICATION is that it wasn't shown to have a limit. Guess what, I didn't assume shit. The writer AND Black Zetsu said that the blade was limitless in it's ability to seal, and even that would only apply to the narutoverse. It doesn't mean it would apply to cross-universe fictional battles, where no limits fallacy tends to be a  bigger  issue. In fact, I know of several characters outside of the universe who have their own absolute abilities that would counter Totsuka.   Black Zetsu was my primary source, because he said this in an UNBIASED Context. Why is it unbiased?



Black Zetsu also said the sun/moon seal was the most powerful seal ever. It was also implied to be the *only way of defeating Kaguya known at the time*.

Again this doesn't even matter because my original answer covers the bases.



> You're only counter-argument was citing Kaguya, someone who hasn't been seen alive for over a 1000 years and information on her was shoddy to begin with, and information deteriorates over time.



It's the same source - Black Zetsu.

Double standards incoming.



> . Hagoromo lived in Kaguya's time, and didn't even know she had transformed into the juubi. Black Zetsu is the most credible source on Kaguya* and also the least credible source at the same time.*



ROFL Blatant double standards.






> Inconsistencies and outliers should AND WILL  be ignored if proven to be such. I proved that Orochimaru didn't have the abilities to pull off what he supposedly pulled off.



You literally proved nothing.

This is nothing more than an argument from incredulity. I don't care that you don't like it.

You cannot dismiss poorly understood phenomenon by simply disliking it. Oro escaped, busting the hype. Those are the facts.

Arbitrarily arguing it's "not believable" in a manga of literally all unbelievable things isn't a real argument. It's simply reaffirming wank.



> You should be concerned.



Consistency has nothing to do with my argument nor does it disprove anything.

Plus if you are willing to engage in double standards why would anybody give such an argument any consideration? You have already proven yourself to not be interested in your own logical consistency. This is simply desperation.



> So looks like this upcoming  new year is gonna start on a good foot.



I suppose that's up to you.

We have the answer, always did.

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

The hype is not affirmed because Oro was not sealed for all time. The hype is proven to be fallacious, which was always my point.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jan 4, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Has Preta ever been able to absorb two jutsu simultaneously?





ShinAkuma said:


> Preta was occupied absorbing another jutsu. Pretty sure it's never absorbed two jutsus at once. You have your answer.


Burden of proof rests on who is making the claim. Prove that Preta cannot absorb more than one jutsu at a time. I distinctly remember Madara absorbing Ei's raiton chakra and Mei's water dragon at the same time. We are told it absorbs any chakra that comes into contact with the barrier.  Not that it matters. We see him fail to absorb the genjutsu even before a fireball is thrown. He could have started absorbing before he even ran into the corridor. Scan was already posted.




ShinAkuma said:


> Dan's soul never left his body.
> 
> You are conflating spirit (a form of chakra) with soul.
> 
> If Dan's soul could leave his body at his command he could have released himself from the Edo Tensei at any point.



False. The soul was used synomously with spirit. The wiki article itself says that The manga panel I posted you before also says that, as well as the databook. Soul and spirit are synonyms. Shikamaru says heart and soul, Databook says heart and spirit, etc...

This is  also false  because the spirit transformation jutsu has limits. And no he couldn't remove himself at any point. The Edo Tensei beings the controlled to certain commands, and Chouza had the barrier specifically to stop him from using the jutsu. He was only able to fly to Tsunade because Kabuto no longer had control over his actions, and because Chouza released the barrier. 

Anything else is mental gymnastics. Ino cloned her soul into two targets because that's what occam's razor says. We don't assume any other mechanical changes, if she poessess two different targets at the same time, the soul must be cloned since the soul is what is used to take over another person's body. Even in Kakashi's illustration we clearly see the Yamanaka's soul moving to poessess Kakashi's body.





ShinAkuma said:


> No shit. Oro had his soul removed.
> 
> Kurama, a being of *pure chakra* had half his chakra removed....
> 
> ...



WRONG. It's not just that Kurama lost chakra. Everyone loses chakra. Chakra can be recharged through kneading or nutrition or rest. Kurama had to recharge his own chakra multiples in the War Arc for Naruto. And each time he was low on chakra, his size wasn't magically and PERMANENTLY changing is the difference. For 16 years, he was unable to grow back his Yin half. And even in the War Arc, he specifically asked his Yin half for chakra. And gaining more chakra didn't increase his size. The reason he permanently lost his size is because half of his soul was removed, and the soul cannot be regenerated, as we saw from Oro's case. However, split souls can be reunited. 








Yin Kurama is effectively a clone of Yang Kurama, they both have their own conciousness and separate experiences, and call each other "myself" and have nearly identical features and abilities. If that doesn't fit the definition of clone, I don't know what is.





ShinAkuma said:


> Yes they gave up their *one shared soul as proven by the soul release from the shinigami*.



More stonewalling. ANSWER THE QUESTION. What happened to the hiruzen things that entered the reaper's stomach alongside with Hashi and Tobirama that coincidentally also look like souls. It's a simple question. They entered the shinigami, so why didn't they exit? IF they didn't exit, then what happened to them?




ShinAkuma said:


> You literally proved nothing.
> 
> This is nothing more than an argument from incredulity. I don't care that you don't like it.
> 
> ...




Argument from incredulity =/= argument for inconsistency. I literally showed you why Oro *could not have moved his soul because of prestablished limitations to his techniques and skills*.  When you quote my actual argument we will continue on this point. 


The phenomenon isn't poorly understood, and you know it. This is a clear strawman argument. By your logic, a normal human one shotting a serious Superman with a  normal punch and nothing more isn't an inconsistency, just "a  poorly understood phenomenon "Rofl. 

You just don't get it. Oro never had the ability to move his soul from a living body without speific requirments. Totsuka sealing him didn't meet those requirments. Totsuka' doesn't kill, it traps in genjutsu, and Oro is near immortal anyway. His soul never departed to the pure land, and the only way for him to move his soul into another body is through the technique he already outlined. We don't assume he has another ability to do so. And if he did, he would have used said ability when his life  was on the line multiple times.
We have no way of knowing when his soul even entered Anko to begin with due to this asspull. So none of this debunks Totsuka's hype, it affirms it.

And keep in mind, this ASSUMES the soul can't be cloned when we have evidence it can.







ShinAkuma said:


> Black Zetsu also said the sun/moon seal was the most powerful seal ever. It was also implied to be the *only way of defeating Kaguya known at the time*.
> 
> Again this doesn't even matter because my original answer covers the bases.



First of all, he never said that. That scan was posted multiple times. He said A most powerful seal. Not THE most powerful seal as far as Viz is concerned.



ShinAkuma said:


> It's the same source - Black Zetsu.
> 
> Double standards incoming.



A source known to lie when it fits his agenda. Already covered why the Pain Arc statement is more credible. Not every statement that comes out of someone's mouth is a fact. 




ShinAkuma said:


> By arbitrarily deciding that the jutsu has a limit far beyond what it has shown it's still an NLF.
> 
> The point of the NLF is to force us to stick to feats and reasonable extrapolations, not arbitrary targets that we determine because we like it.


First of all, this a clear Appeal to Motive Fallacy. I don't care whether you think I like it. liking something is independent of the truth. I like that Earth has oxygen on it because it lets me breath.  it's also a fact that it has oxygen on it.

You clearly don't understand what NLF or what source credibility  is.
primarily using a loan approved by Ms. Vrablic,

"The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has *no knowledge of certain enemies,* or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe,* Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or delude*d."

I proved that in the PA, Zetsu has ZERO reason to lie, zero reason to bluff, isn't misinformed because he knew the subject at hand down to a science and is an information specialist that monitored the two strongest clans in history for 1000 years, and wasn't deluded either. When he couldn't draw conclusions on something (such as why Itachi seemed so sickly and died prematurely) he admitted it. In the kaguya fight, he has every reason to lie, every reason to bluff, and is deluded because he claimed his mom can absorb any and all jutsu despite knowing that she failed to absorb the yin yang seal technique when Hagoromo/Hamura touched her with it.




A non-fallacious argument from authority grounds a claim in the beliefs of one or more , whose opinions are likely to be true on the relevant issue. Notably, insofar as the authorities in question are, indeed, experts on the issue in question, their opinion provides strong inductive support for the conclusion: It makes the conclusion _likely_ to be true, not _necessarily_ true. As such, an argument from authority can only strongly suggest what is true — not prove it."

-------
At minimum, Zetsu's claims are LIKELY to be true. And they are certaintly true if the author of the series is rehashing his statements in an official Databook.

And when in doubt:
"
In Bayesian terms, a non-expert lacks the means to properly update his or her confidence in the hypothesis when encountering a particular piece of information. *As such, the only  response is to defer to what the experts are doing with that piece of information. "*
*
"By the same token, if one, as a non-expert, disagrees with the experts, one’s belief is automatically not justified."


----*
You aren't an expert on the blade, so your position isn't justified, even if it's true, as you have zero evidence to deny Zetsu's ( and the author's claims in this subject" and prove your position to be true."







ShinAkuma said:


> Losing that piece of his soul permanently incapacitated his hands physically so that he could not weave hand signs. He can still produce chakra and use ninjutsu that doesn't require handsigns. (Rashamon)



which proves my point. It doesn't matter if technology can cast ninjutsu. Naruto's shadow clones aren't using technology. and they are casting handsigns. So they must have functional soul arms.



It's my turn to now explain to you your situation.

Either :
the Oro in Anko is a clone with its own soul , own consciousness, own body and lacks arms due to inconsistency, thus we have no way to verify that it is the original, meaning Totsuka's hype hasn't been busted.


The Oro that is in Anko is the original soul, making it an inconsistency for reasons already outlined, thus Totsuka's hype is affirmed, the author needed deus ex machina to place Oro's soul in Anko when it had no way of getting there to begin with, in order for Sasuke to bring Oro back. We don't know when his soul moved.

It's an inconsistency no matter how much fanfic you offer.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 4, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Burden of proof rests on who is making the claim.



Dude...

You literally don't have a hot clue what you're talking about do you?

YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING PRETA CAN ABSORB MORE THAN ONE JUTSU AT A TIME

That's your claim. I'm simply pointing out we have never seen that happen. I could give a shit if you agree with the manga or not.



> False. The soul was used synomously with spirit.



No it wasn't. Spirit energy is a form of chakra. Already pointed this out.



> Anything else is mental gymnastics. Ino cloned her soul into two targets because that's what occam's razor says.



Or Ino is sharing one soul with multiple bodies.

Also you continually disregard the precepts of all logic to wank INCLUDING OCCAM'S RAZOR, so LOL to that nonsense.



> WRONG.



No.

Let's try this again.

No shit. Oro had his soul removed.

Kurama, a being of *pure chakra* had half his chakra removed....

And....you JUST DEBUNKED YOURSELF AGAIN.

Kurama shrinking buy having half it's chakra removed proves it is different from what happened to Oro *who did not shrink*.

It's  over YOU LITERALLY DEBUNKED YOURSELF.



> Yin Kurama is effectively a clone of Yang Kurama,



He's not a clone. Stop with this ridiculous bullshit. We are explicitly told that Kurama was split into the yin and yang half's. There is no fanficing out of that.



> More stonewalling. ANSWER THE QUESTION.



I did.

Try again.

Only one soul from Hiruzen entered the shinigami, and one soul left. It wasn't cloned, it  is one soul shared with his bunshins.



> Argument from incredulity =/= argument for inconsistency. I literally showed you why Oro *could not have moved his soul because of prestablished limitations to his techniques and skills*.  When you quote my actual argument we will continue on this point.



I don't care about your fanfiction tho? I care about the manga and the manga says different.



> The phenomenon isn't poorly understood, and you know it.



It is poorly understood. Your fanfiction IS NOT CANON therefore we don't understand the specifgics behind the phenomenon in order to determine "consistency".



> This is a clear strawman argument. By your logic, a normal human one shotting a serious Superman with a  normal punch and nothing more isn't an inconsistency, just "a  poorly understood phenomenon "Rofl.



No....that's not my argument at all.

The irony of bringing up a strawman while simultaneously strawmanning.

ROFL



> You just don't get it. Oro never had the ability to move his soul from a living body without speific requirments.



The manga disagrees and also busts the totsuka hype.

Sorry.



> First of all, he never said that. That scan was posted multiple times. He said A most powerful seal. Not THE most powerful seal as far as Viz is concerned.



But still most powerful.

Anyway all that shit was debunked here - 

Yeah I know you "responded" but considering your track record of making zero sense and DEBUNKING YOUR OWN LOGIC lol pretty safe to say any reasonable reader knows whats up.



> A source known to lie when it fits his agenda.



But magically telling the truth when it fits your agenda lol

Get the fuck outta here with this double standard garbage.

Double standards are the hallmark of a weak argument.



> First of all, this a clear Appeal to Motive Fallacy.



It's not. I didn't say your argument fails due to motive, I'm simply pointing out your obvious motive.

It's the garbage tier logic that cause your argument to fail.



> I don't care whether you think I like it. liking something is independent of the truth. I like that Earth has oxygen on it because it lets me breath.  it's also a fact that it has oxygen on it.



Don't even talk about truth while doing backflips to avoid it. It's disgusting.



> You clearly don't understand what NLF or what source credibility  is.
> primarily using a loan approved by Ms. Vrablic,
> 
> "The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has *no knowledge of certain enemies,* or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe,* Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or delude*d."



Did you literally just post the NLF definition without knowing what that means?

Astonishing.



> I proved that



No.

You don't prove jackshit.

You tried to JUSTIFY YOUR DOUBLE STANDARD. You can't justify a double standard because your reason are always going to be subjective and arbitrary THAT'S WHY IT'S A DOUBLE STANDARD.

This is painful.



> which proves my point.





What the fuck lol

You said you need a soul to cast jutsus. When I provide evidence of jutsus being cast without a soul THAT DOESN'T PROVE YOUR POINT. It debunks it.

Are you high.

This nonsense is off the charts.




> It's my turn to now explain to you your situation.



I have given you the answer already. It covers all your bases. It doesn't relay on out of universe excuses like "inconsistent".

We have the answer, always did.

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

The hype is not affirmed because Oro was not sealed for all time. The hype is proven to be fallacious, which was always my point.[/quote][/quote]


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jan 6, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Dude...
> 
> You literally don't have a hot clue what you're talking about do you?
> 
> ...



No, you have no clue what you are talking about. We explicilty see Preta Path failing to absorb the Genjutsu BEFORE the fireball was launched. He could have started absorbing before he even ran into the hall.

We never seen that happen huh? So what is happening here? We clearly see Preta absorbing raiton chakra from Ayy and water dragon from Mei. Incoming mental gymnastics
Burden of proof is ON YOU. You made the claim we have never seen it. This single panel renders your claim not only proven, but false.




ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> Let's try this again.
> 
> ...



No , I debunked you. RDS sucks souls. If Kurama is a soul, it makes sense that taking half of his soul would make him shrink  permanently. Oro isn't a pure soul. His soul is distinct from his physical body. We have seen other normal people getting souls removed without shrinking. Simply removing chakra from Kurama doesn't make him shrink, let alone permanently. KCM Naruto proved that. Kurama suffered temporary emaciation. not a permanent reduction in size. And he  was able to regenerate the chakra that Naruto stole from him by taking some of Naruto's chakra reserves.



ShinAkuma said:


> He's not a clone. Stop with this ridiculous bullshit. We are explicitly told that Kurama was split into the yin and yang half's. There is no fanficing out of that.




Read the english dictionary definiton of clone. Getting off on semantics is hilarious.



ShinAkuma said:


> It is poorly understood. Your fanfiction IS NOT CANON therefore we don't understand the specifgics behind the phenomenon in order to determine "consistency".



You just don't get it. We don't need to know the mechanics. I know for a FACT it is inconsistent becausse of the inconsistent USAGE.

Oro was DYING in the fucking shower, calling out Sasuke's name. When he all has to do is move his soul into Sasuke's curse mark the same way did to Anko, and have Kimimaro OR Kabuto do the same shit EMS Sasuke did, if getting a new body was the issue. Instead he wasted his once per 3 year reika jutsu on a fodder. Sasuke was coming to Oro willingly at that point too. There were plenty of ways for him to get inside Sasuke and take over his body, if he in fact always had this ability.  He never did this for 3 years. Hell he could have used any of the sound 5 for this since they all have bits of his conciousness. There was ample opportunity. Even when he went to take Sasuke's body, he only ever used the Reika Jutsu. When he wanted to interact with the part of his conciousness in Kabuto, HE NEEDED PHYSICAL CONTACT. More importantly, he needed to be concious to activate any jutsu that would have allowed him to escape, which would be impossible when bound by a legendary genjutsu

Drop the fanfic. And the very fact that it is poorly explained means we have no idea WHEN OR HOW it was used to get inside Anko. Meaning he could have done it before Totsuka Blade even hit him. For all we know, Totsuka only ever sealed a clone of Oro.  It's not limited to sealing souls. It sealed his hydra serpent ( ninjutusu) and his kusanagi blade.



The hype isn't busted, bud.



ShinAkuma said:


> But still most powerful.
> 
> Anyway all that shit was debunked here -
> 
> Yeah I know you "responded" but considering your track record of making zero sense and DEBUNKING YOUR OWN LOGIC lol pretty safe to say any reasonable reader knows whats up.



Is English even your first language?





" a most"  =/= "the most"

a most is equal to very.




ShinAkuma said:


> Only one soul from Hiruzen entered the shinigami, and one soul left. It wasn't cloned, it is one soul shared with his bunshins.




You didn't. We see two Hiruzen looking thingies entering the reaper. You have yet to  identify what they are and what became of them.
Plus, your mental gymnastics are astounding. I posted you the Databook link for the Dan's technique, which explicitly equates the soul to spirit and says the soul leaves the body. Ino's technique works the same. Your one soul for two body's  is fanfic. We explicitly see Ino's soul splitting into two and entering two different bodies.




ShinAkuma said:


> But magically telling the truth when it fits your agenda lol
> 
> Get the fuck outta here with this double standard garbage.
> 
> Double standards are the hallmark of a weak argument.




Nonsense. Obito was a credible source on the Uchiha Massacre. Much of what we know about it comes from him. He also LIED in the very same conservation in which he revealed what happened. Saying bullshit like he never attacked Konoha with the nine tails. Zetsu is known to lie, just like Obito, but its easy to spot which statements are more likely to be true.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 6, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> No, you have no clue what you are talking about. We explicilty see Preta Path failing to absorb the Genjutsu BEFORE the fireball was launched. He could have started absorbing before he even ran into the hall.



Have we seen Preta Path absorb multiple jutsus at once?

If not you have your answer.



> We never seen that happen huh? So what is happening here? We clearly see Preta absorbing raiton chakra from Ayy and water dragon from Mei. Incoming mental gymnastics
> Burden of proof is ON YOU. You made the claim we have never seen it. This single panel renders your claim not only proven, but false.



The Paths of Pain are inferior versions to a true Rinnegan user. Nagato can also do things his Paths couldn't do.



> No , I debunked you.



No.

You debunked yourself, like 5 times.



> RDS sucks souls.



Was never contended.



> If Kurama is a soul,



Which he is not. He is chakra, yin and yang.



> it makes sense that taking half of his soul would make him shrink  permanently.



Uh it actually makes more sense that taking half of his chakra from a being of pure chakra would make him shrink.

LOL



> Oro isn't a pure soul. His soul is distinct from his physical body. We have seen other normal people getting souls removed without shrinking.



I know I POINTED THIS OUT.

Are you really this clueless? You can't prove Kurama is a soul by pointing he shrunk when anything else with a soul NEVER SHRINKS.

This is literally fucking proof you're talking nonsense!

Stop repeating worthless gibberish.



> Read the english dictionary definiton of clone. Getting off on semantics is hilarious.



LMAO

Cloning is creating a replica of something. If you cloned a chocolate bar you would have two chocolate bars. Spliting is taking one existing item and chopping it in half. (in this case) That would be two halves of one item.

They are distinctly different.

Kurama was split NOT CLONED PER THE MANGA.



> You just don't get it. We don't need to know the mechanics. I know for a FACT it is inconsistent becausse of the inconsistent USAGE.



No I get it, you want to wank Totsuka, I just don't *care*.

You cannot deem something inconsistent when you don't understand what makes it consistent or not. Without knowing the mechanics behind what we see you have no argument.

Also LOL at trying to use an inconsistency argument in the most inconsistent manga ever.

Desperation by Calvin Klein



> The hype isn't busted, bud.



The sealed oro escaped via means that did not interact with Totsuka.

Hype

Is

Busted



> Is English even your first language?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You literally just repeated what I said and then asked if English was my first language?

ROFL



> You didn't. We see two Hiruzen looking thingies entering the reaper. You have yet to  identify what they are and what became of them.



Nothing became of them, they are part of Hiruzen's 1 soul.

One soul entered, one soul left.



> Plus, your mental gymnastics are astounding. I posted you the Databook link for the Dan's technique, which explicitly equates the soul to spirit and says the soul leaves the body.



Dude did you actually read that entry? It indicates Dan can take over a body and transfer chakra to it PROVING CHAKRA AND SOUL ARE TWO DISTINCT TRAITS.

The expanded entry from the source makes even more distinction between chakra and soul.



It's like you don't even read what you post.



> Nonsense.



No it's called a double standard.

You have arbitrarily decided the same fucking source is magically correct on the point your prefer and incorrect on the point you don't.

Look I gave you the answer that covered your bases. I will post it again. I may seem like a broken record but that's because the answer is right here in front of you all along:

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

The hype is not affirmed because Oro was not sealed for all time. The hype is proven to be fallacious, which was always my point.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jan 11, 2020)

Having problems with uploading images, so chapter numbers will be provided in case links don't upload. Don't really have time to fix the issue so just gonna upload these posts.



ShinAkuma said:


> Dude did you actually read that entry? It indicates Dan can take over a body and transfer chakra to it PROVING CHAKRA AND SOUL ARE TWO DISTINCT TRAITS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





What is this mental gymnastics?







"Dan's ability to cause his soul to exit his body makes him reminiscent of an "


"This technique allows the user's spirit to materialise and leave their body"



The soul is EQUAL to the spirit. Whether or not the soul is chakra is a separate issue. But even then, the soul being the spirit still proves its chakra, because we are also told that the spirit is basically chakra in the form of spiritual energy. A =B , A= C, so B= C dude. Chakra can take on the form and properties of basically everything.  Chakra with the properties of water is still chakra. We saw water created by fodder ninja evaporating when clashing with a katon of Madara. that means in practice, bar chakra absorption techniques, its nigh impossible to distinguish chakra from the "real thing". The confusion about chakra and the soul comes from the fact that it is likely that chakra can replicate all the properties the soul, or could even be the origin of it.


And in the narutoversity article, you just omitted that:


"The Spirit Transformation Jutsu is an S-rank kinjutsu which detaches the caster’s soufrom their body and grants them conscious control over it, becoming a living ghost."


"And the caster is not entirely invulnerable in their spirit form either. Though they are immune to physical attacks, the same does not apply to chakra-based attacks which are part spiritual energy. Their soul-body disperses if struck by an offensive jutsu and forces them to use their chakra to restore themselves so if it occurs too many times then the caster would..."



Do you concede that the soul is the spirit, yes or no? This has been brought to your attention many times. Tayuya's chakra spirits were called dead souls. Ino was said multiple times by manga AND databook to send her spirit or SOUL into her targets. The terms are very heavily used synomously.



Kurama and the other tailed beasts have been referred to as spirits multiple times as well. They don't have actual physical bodies anymore than shadow clones do, their flesh is just chakra with the properties of flesh.  This also explains why they don't die. Explains why BM Naruto being stripped of his kurama avatar cause his bijuu to be ripped out.  Explains why their souls will always come back.



Chapter 546 pg 12 (Viz)

Chapter 149 pg 9 (Viz)







 Chakra isn’t necessarily the soul, but the soul is  a form of chakra. Narutoversity says nothing to contradict this fact. Chakra in its base form is nothing but spirit energy and physical energy coming together.


Fourth Databook : Kuchiyose : Gedou Mazou


Naruto Chapter 429 pg 4




Naruto Chapter 447 pg 10


These scans show that the depiction of the soul as ripped out from Shizune is identical to that of the ‘chakra’ being ripped out of the Rain fodders by the Gedo Mazou.









“Using “Shiki Fuujin”, his own chakra had been sealed together with the Kyuubi’s half body in reconcilliation (compromise).”




We are literally told that Shiki Fuujin sealed Minato’s “chakra” . I wonder what that means in  this context, given that we KNOW for a fact that Minato’s soul was what was sealed. We see his soul being placed into a Zetsu clone by Oro. We know his soul could not be summoned in P1 because it was in the RDS.


Naruto Chap 520 pg 11


It’s exactly as I have been saying. The soul carries chakra (Obito gifting the Copy ninja his left over six paths chakra he stole from Madara), Mei strongly suggested it with Madara, Hagoromo’s spirit called himself chakra, Naruto/Hagoromo called Ashura’s chakra a ghost. The soul ITSELF is a form of chakra.




Furthermore, just as I thought, the mental gynmastics when it comes to Hiruzen’s usage of the RDS is strong. We literally see the two Hiruzen thingines ( the same casters that sealed away Tobirama and Hashirama btw) that you say are a PART of Hiruzen’s soul being CUT AWAY from Hiruzen’s soul and SWALLOWED INTO THE REAPER, BEFORE THE REST OF HIRUZEN’s SOUL ENTERED, which only happened AFTER Oro’s soul’s arms were sealed. You literally just debunked yourself. All you are doing is  proving my point. No one said that those things weren’t a part of his soul, their very existence in the first place simply proves the soul can be partitioned and recombined, among the other evidence (Oro’s soul arms recombining with his body, yin and Yang Kurama recombining).





We have further evidence that shadow clones have souls thanks to Konohamaru




Naruto Chapter 428 pg 4


Naruto Chapter 428 pg 5





“The soul of the living is pulled out in-order to be eaten, this hijutsu (hidden jutsu, I.E. clan jutsu) calls out the ruler of hades.  “


“To lay down life's burden unconditionally the soul is eaten. “


“Directed towards judging the authenticity of the answer to the question, the gift of a tranquil death awaits a person who states falsehoods.”



We literally see Naraka pulling out a KONOHAMARU  SHADOW CLONE’s soul for the truth test, meanwhile the original and and another shadow clone were charging up a rasengan blitz, taking advantage of that clone feint diversion no problem.



This corroborates the fact that we see shadow clones casting techniques with handsigns, without recourse to any technological aid. They implicitly had souls. Orochimaru losing his soul’s arms were shown to be crippling in terms of casting advanced ninjutsu. There was no alternative to that other than getting his soul arms back.  Now I have explicitly shown that shadow clones  have souls  two times over, proving the soul can be cloned.



Ino objectively split her soul and two and controlled two targets simultaneously.






ShinAkuma said:


> LMAO
> 
> 
> 
> ...





This is mental gymnastics.



Naruto Chapter 643 pg 13



noun


BIOLOGY


noun: clone; plural noun: clones



an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical.



*a person or thing regarded as identical to another.*
"successful women don't want to be male clones"


a computer designed to simulate exactly the operation of another, typically more expensive, model.
"an IBM PC clone"


I rest my case. Yin Kurama and yang kurama are  regarded as clones with 50 percent of their original's chakra, and one with the yin  and one with the yang. 50 percent Chakra + conciousness is by definition a clone, in the naruto verse, as its the basis of the Singular shadow clone technique.





ShinAkuma said:


> Uh it actually makes more sense that taking half of his chakra from a being of pure chakra would make him shrink.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL








ShinAkuma said:


> I know I POINTED THIS OUT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Rofl what is this mental gymnastics?  The whole point is that Kurama is a pure soul. Other human beings aren't pure souls, they have real physical bodies. Removing the soul from their body won't make them shrink. But if Kurama is a pure soul, then removing half of it would very logically make it shrink. Simply removing chakra from Kurama doesn't it make it shrink. KCM Naruto took a lot of its chakra, and it was also low on chakra multiple times in the war arc, with no permanent reduction in size. All lost chakra was always recuperated too. With the RDS, taking half its soul also took half its chakra, which is consistent because the soul at minimum carries chakra with it if not being a form of chakra itself. I'm talking COMMON sense. The soul can’t regnerate on its own so it makes sense that he can’t restore the soul nor the chakra he lost to the RDS back to its original state. If that was possible than Oro’s soul arms would have regenerated as well.






ShinAkuma said:


> The Paths of Pain are inferior versions to a true Rinnegan user. Nagato can also do things his Paths couldn't do.





Proof of this claim? Nagato showed FAR more skill and proficiency than Madara going  by feats.


>Multiple rinnegan techniques being used at once even when  his body was used by a novice


>30 years exp, whereas Madara only used his rinnegan for a relatively short time before death, and Kurama stressed Sasuke's lack of experience with the rinnegan in his final fight with Naruto. Sasuke showed more raw power than Nagato, but not more skill with the rinnegan, fact.



The only edge Madara had over Nagato was raw power with the rinnegan ( largely due to better stamina) and being the OG afforded him access to limbo. That's it. Nothing suggests he is better at Preta Path. And same goes for Nagato vs his own paths, which are only presumably weaker because of the inverse square law and the fact he is dividing up his chakra among each body.



Plus, you still didn't address the fact that Preta failed to start absorbing the genjutsu BEFORE running into the corridor, which suggests Preta can't absorb it period. Preta Path has limits in absorbing chakra in the form of spiritual energy, so it is a no brainer that it can't absorb the soul.



All you are doing here by asserting limits on the Preta Path is weakening your own argument, because if it has limits than we have no reason to assume that the reason it can't absorb the soul is because the soul isn't chakra. The soul can be chakra, and Preta won't absorb it due to it's limitations.







ShinAkuma said:


> You literally just repeated what I said and then asked if English was my first language?
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL





Wow, amazing levels of ignorance here. I say ignorance as opposed to idiocy, because I KNOW you aren't stupid.  If you weren't so busy with your appeal to motive fallacies, then I wouldn't need to keep educating you in English.






ShinAkuma said:


> Black Zetsu also said the sun/moon seal was the most powerful seal ever. It was also implied to be the only way of defeating Kaguya known at the time.






You keep spouting headcanon about Zetsu claiming that the yin yang seal was THE most powerful seal.



It's BS, as that isn't what he said. He said "it was said to have been A most powerful seal"



What part of…..  A=/= The……. do you not understand? What part of indefinite article =/= definite article do you not understand? What part of “a most” =/= “the most” do you not understand? Oh we established that intellect isn’t the issue, since you are indeed intelligent, therefore I implore you to LISTEN TO REASON and :





READ THE DAM LINKS this time











Meaning, as per those links and the Merriam Webster dictionary entry for most , he was only saying it was a very powerful seal, and/or it is a powerful seal among many other (equally) powerful seals.



"


Most can be used as 'very'... so 'a most' means 'a very'......



adv. Superlative of much; (intensifier): very. e.g. a most impressive piece of writing. (TFD/AHDEL)



"



---------


A most =/= THE most, as THE MOST implies that it is more powerful than everything else, period.  A most just states its very powerful. Two completely different meanings.



This is what happens when you fail to read and address someone's argument, and use appeal to motive. I know its appeal to motive because up to now you didn't address the vast majority of my argument, yet from the beginning you were saying things  like  "gotta wank dat Itachi", "gotta  wank dat Totsuka," ; yet even comprehending a basic line in the manga translated into what is supposedly your first language seems to be difficult for you, which by extension makes it difficult for you to understand and address my argument. It's not that you aren't smart, you are just too invested in downplaying and appeal to motive, and all for what, my initial opinion differing than yours? My willingness to defend my argument when there are facts with which to defend it with?



My argument was simple. BZ considers the Totsuka Blade to make a near dead/blind man invincible, meanwhile he only considers the yin yang seal to be at BEST to be a simply very powerful seal among the masses.



That means Totsuka > or equal to Yin yang seals in hype/portrayal.



Hagoromo isn't just assumed to be a credible source on Totsuka cause it’s convenient for your downplay. I need PROOF.  He hasn't demonstrated any knowledge of it, and hell didn't even know his mom was the juubi or that Black Zetsu edited his tablet.  He doesn't even has knowledge together when it comes to the things that are self proclaimed to be the most important to him, yet I'm supposed to believe he knows anything about this obscure blade without proof? yin yang seals are the only seals that can seal Kaguya to HIS knowledge, knowledge which you haven't proven encompasses the Totsuka Blade. Kaguya claiming only the yin yang seals can seal her is only valid if you can prove she knows anything about Totsuka when she doesn't even know what transformation jutsu is. And self hype from a villain used to intimidate her enemies is hardly reliable. What's next, Kabuto is the closest thing in the world to the Sage of six paths? Kabuto also  claimed he was immune to all of Itachi's genjutsu, and look what happened. Her statements have no backing behind them, whereas Zetsu’s statements are actually backed by the author’s Databook.



Naruto and Sasuke got their intel from Hagoromo, so they are also just as invalid. And spare me the RSM sensing nonsense.  I already showed that RSM Madara needed time and conscious analysis to understand Sasuke's Ameno technique, which included seeing it in action multiple times.  I already showed that RSM Naruto couldn't unconsciously and inherently understand Limbo even after fighting it multiple times, he needed Sasuke to explain it to him. And even the OG RSM user in Hagoromo couldn't sense that the juubi was his mother.  And even @WorldsStrongest  logic wasn't internally consistent, as BZ is also a sensor type like KCM Naruto was, so he sensed and saw the sealing of Orochimaru and determined it was invincible. The double standards are on your end, not mine.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jan 11, 2020)

Now Let me explain to you your situation: 


1)

You were debunked several times:


Some of your claims were:


>Chakra does not equal the things they transform into, when in fact it is. Chakra with the properties of fire is still chakra.

> seriously doesn’t know the difference between’ a most’ and ‘the most’. Basic English language rules

>claiming shadow clone can’t clone the soul.

> claiming the soul can’t exist outside of the body without killing. 

>claiming Yin Kurama isn’t a clone of Yang Kurama just to pick a fight where one isn’t needed.

>claiming the soul isn’t the spirit.


Those are the 6 that were the most memorable.


The only things I messed up on:

“ Oro would have intentionally cut his soul arm”  that was silly of me

“The  soul is the same as the consciousness.” That was wrong, but most of the time they are closely related anyway.


Literally everything else I’m correct on. At worst, our track record is the same in this debate, so I don’t give a dam what you say with regards to ‘wank’. Your argument has had holes/ incorrect facts as well, so by your own logic you have been downplaying this whole time and it reflects in  the quality of your arguments ( especially the appeal to motive).



2) 


Either



 The Oro  soul that came out of Anko is a clone, as logic suggests, since we know cloning of the consciousness and chakra is well documented- Tobirama did the same shit with shadow clones, Obito did the same shit with Shukaku and Gyuki, Bijuus 1-7 did the same shit, Minato did the same shit with himself and Kushina. Minato objectively put a piece of his soul in Naruto. Which just proves that the soul can be fractionated even while under the RDS. the RDS didn’t even seal all of Minato’s soul. IF you put some of your soul somewhere else before it devours it all, it won’t care. But you always die  in the end as the reaper takes all of your leftover soul in the end.  Multiple statements and feats implicating or explicitly describing the soul to be the spirit, the soul to be a form of chakra that can be replicated. Oro is the GOAT when it comes to immortality. There is no reason why his clones predating RDS and Totsuka wouldn’t have soul arms, if we literally see that people like Minato and Kushina’s clones inside Naruto and shadow clones have soul arms. That means we cannot identfiy Ankomaru as the original soul, as none of the soul copies have arms…. Your argument is debunked.



Or b)

IF we stick with your fanfic premise of no cloned souls and only cloned consciousness:

Even if the Oro inside Anko was the original soul, we have no idea when it got there, since we don’t know  enough about the mechanics of the Evil Releasing  technique according to you ( even though Sasuke and the Databook gives us the mechanics LOL, (Oro’s chakra is summoned from the curse mark and takes on a physical body)). You claimed he was revived without interacting with Totsuka, which just proves my point. You have no proof that his soul was ever sealed. You have no physical evidence of his soul escaping the gourd either. 


There is evidence, however,  that under very special conditions the soul can exist outside a physical body (spirit transformation, mind transfer, RDS  Naruto chapter 504 pg 10 Minato and Hiruzen’s soul literally being outside of their body yet they can still cast techniques and remain consciousness until the soul is devoured). Oro the GOAT of immortality may have transcended this in the same way, and can “relocate his soul” with unknown limits/restrictions to one have his curse marks.  Therefore, there is no proof that the Oro that was sealed by Totsuka had a soul. Zetsu ( sensor) said Oro’s chakra was shoving itself to the surface. We know chakra can form clones, and we know that there were two Orochimaru’s inside Sasuke at one point. We have seen clones of this archetype can be fairly durable, as shown by Minato’s clone taking a punch from angry Naruto, albeit while suffering some pain:



Naruto  chapter 440 pg 6

We know from shadow clones that chakra can form physical bodies. We know they can cast techniques. So the only thing left is the kusanagi blade, except there is evidence that there are at least  3  distinct  kusanagi swords (Oro’s, Sasuke’s Totsuka), possibly 4, as Emma seemed to take Oro’s kusanagi with him when he desummoned:



Naruto chapter 138 pg 4
Yet ORo had it in the Sannin Deadlock and against Sai/Kn4, implying he may have had to replace it with another one.



Naruto chapter 297 pg 6

Here we see it transforming into a snake, implying it may have  a chakra origin, and weapons are generally cloned anyway in cloning techniques. 


So literally zero proof that the Oro Itachi sealed has a soul. Databook only states that Oro’s body was sealed



And we know that even Oro’s DEAD bodies can have his chakra + consciousness, as per Kabuto as already discussed, which means they have the minimum potential to act as clones. So Totsuka could have simply sealed yet another clone of Orochimaru similiar to the one that was inside Kabuto. 




ShinAkuma said:


> No it's called a double standard.
> 
> 
> You have arbitrarily decided the same fucking source is magically correct on the point your prefer and incorrect on the point you don't.




This nonsense is based on a false premise ( as Zetsu said nothing that was inherently contradictory to his PA statements), and even if it wasn’t we  have every reason to believe that Zetsu would be less credible a source when talking to ENEMIES on behalf of the person he LOVES  Most in the world. Context matters for source credibility. This concept escapes you, and is just another proof of of your appeal to motive. My reasoning here could be incorrect, but it sure as hell wasn’t arbituary. This was explained to you multiple  times, and it wasn’t even addressed, but magically my “motives” debunk my arguments. Amazing.





“If one can prove the opponent's argument is false, and that they have an ulterior motive for making the false claim, their entire position is much weaker. But to argue robustly, you need to show the actual argument is wrong. Simply being indicated as having a conflict of interest does not make one wrong.


You been speculating motives a lot and doing very little to debunk my actual arguments.





ShinAkuma said:


> No I get it, you want to wank Totsuka, I just don't care.
> 
> 
> You cannot deem something inconsistent when you don't understand what makes it consistent or not. Without knowing the mechanics behind what we see you have no argument.




It is inconsistent. Oro obviously knows how his own technique works since he was the inventor, and used the technique twice, once on his own in fact in PII, without any complications and cured him of the issue of a failing body. The ability was not used in P1 or early PII when his life was on the line, and we see him using every other method except for the curse marks. Even trying to get Tsunade to heal his arms.  Databook clearly describes the mechanics, and all he needs AT WORST is someone to open up the curse mark for him from the outside, and he can be revived brand new.


And lol, since when is Kishimoto exempt to the standards put forth by OBD, Vs Battle, and any other vs debating source? Kishimoto’s level of inconsistency in Naruto is about on par with Toriyama’s DBZ, and many other fictions in fact. Kishimoto’s work doesn’t get immunity; if something is an inconsistency it’s thrown in the trash as far debating is concerned, if proven

 to be an inconsistency.


----------



## MaruUchiha (Jan 11, 2020)

Shazam said:


> "Itachi beats Kaguya top notch God tier with Totuksa Blade"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mad because Jiraiya doesn't have a single thing that threatens Kaguya?


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 11, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Having problems with uploading images, so chapter numbers will be provided in case links don't upload. Don't really have time to fix the issue so just gonna upload these posts.
> 
> What is this mental gymnastics?
> 
> ...



Dude you cited a source that tells us the soul and chakra are different.

It's the 5th time you've debunked yourself.

Figure it out.



> Chakra isn’t necessarily the soul, but the soul is  a form of chakra.



Fanfiction.

We know chakra is from Kaguya. Are you saying souls didn't exist prior to Kaguya's arrival?

Soul's are a distinct property. Chakra can interact with souls but is not the soul.

 Narutoversity says nothing to contradict this fact. Chakra in its base form is nothing but spirit energy and physical energy coming together.


Fourth Databook : Kuchiyose : Gedou Mazou




> Naruto Chapter 429 pg 4
> 
> 
> Naruto Chapter 447 pg 10
> ...



Uh....it's souls in both instances.

The Six Paths abilities can interact with both souls and chakra. We already know this. Don't conflate the two interactions was the same.



> “Using “Shiki Fuujin”, his own chakra had been sealed together with the Kyuubi’s half body in reconcilliation (compromise).”
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The cost of RDS is your soul. You can use RDS to seal whatever you want. In this case chakra.

I don't know why you think this is so important lol




> Naruto Chap 520 pg 11
> 
> It’s exactly as I have been saying. The soul carries chakra



Yes the soul can interact with chakra, but it is not chakra.

Been saying this from the start.



> Furthermore, just as I thought, the mental gynmastics when it comes to Hiruzen’s usage of the RDS is strong.



One soul in one soul out.

Simply the facts.



> “The soul of the living is pulled out in-order to be eaten, this hijutsu (hidden jutsu, I.E. clan jutsu) calls out the ruler of hades.  “
> 
> 
> “To lay down life's burden unconditionally the soul is eaten. “



The passage is saying soul but you secretly think it's chakra.

It's like you not even reading the stuff you post.




> We literally see Naraka pulling out a KONOHAMARU  SHADOW CLONE’s soul for the truth test, meanwhile the original and and another shadow clone were charging up a rasengan blitz, taking advantage of that clone feint diversion no problem.



One shared soul.

Durrrr

Like this was already covered.



> This corroborates the fact that we see shadow clones casting techniques with handsigns,



Already debunked this lol

Anyway snipping the wacky stuff already debunked.



> noun
> 
> 
> BIOLOGY
> ...



Yo man, try to understand the stuff you post.

Identical.

Something half you size fails to qualify as identical.

You just debunked yourself for the 6th time.



> Rofl what is this mental gymnastics?  The whole point is that Kurama is a pure soul.



It's pure chakra, not soul.



> Other human beings aren't pure souls, they have real physical bodies.



Hey man it was your shit tier point, not mine. Not my problem it made no fucking sense lol



> Proof of this claim?



I got a better idea - how about you prove Nagato's Preta Path Pein Body can absorb multiple jutsus at once since it was your original claim it failed to do so.



> Wow, amazing levels of ignorance here. I say ignorance as opposed to idiocy, because I KNOW you aren't stupid.  If you weren't so busy with your appeal to motive fallacies, then I wouldn't need to keep educating you in English.



Dude you don't even understand what you're posting and get all butthurt when I point it out.

I love it.



> You keep spouting headcanon about Zetsu claiming that the yin yang seal was THE most powerful seal.



It's at the top of the sealing chain.




> This is what happens when you fail to read and address someone's argument,



Nobody is compelled to address your fanfiction.

When your premise is unfounded and you've debunked yourself 6 separate times with your haphazard logic how serious can you expect to be taken?



ThirdRidoku said:


> Now Let me explain to you your situation:



How about this?

Look I gave you the answer that covered your bases. I will post it again. I may seem like a broken record but that's because the answer is right here in front of you all along:

- Oro doesn't copy his soul into the curse seal, in which case the fact the revived Oro DOES HAVE A SOUL proves he's the real deal

- Or you do pour a copy of your soul into the curse seal in which case Anko's cursed seal was created prior to arm sealing hence the revived Oro having a fractured soul also proves he's the real deal

You're fucked no matter how much fanfiction you offer. The revived Oro has the soul that was damaged with RDS. That proves he has his *real soul*. This means at least metaphysically he is the same Oro that was sealed with Totsuka.

So what we end up with is:

Totsuka seals souls for all time - Disproven via Oro, who once revived received his original soul back.

Totsuka seal bodies for all time - While technically true if you can split or have alternate consciousness you can bypass the seal

The hype is not affirmed because Oro was not sealed for all time. The hype is proven to be fallacious, which was always my point.




> This nonsense is based on a false premise



Dude a double standard is a double standard. Stop trying to use words other people use against you without understanding how they apply.



> You been speculating motives a lot and doing very little to debunk my actual arguments.



You're entire argument is speculative fanfiction.



> It is inconsistent.



You need to establish consistency (and thus must understand the mechanic of the items you believe inconsistent).

Since you can't do that we don't know what is intended to be consistent.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 18, 2020)

@ThirdRidoku 

I was just translating the Databook so how can you disagree with me; you disagree with the author is more accurate...:


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @ThirdRidoku
> 
> I was just translating the Databook so how can you disagree with me; you disagree with the author is more accurate...:



He is under the impression a soul and chakra are exactly the same thing, so he would disagree with it not sucking souls.

Is the soul and chakra the same kanji?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Jan 18, 2020)

Oh for fucks sake its this shit thread again 

I swear man every few weeks this disgusting nonsense with no basis crops up and ruins the front page


----------



## Turrin (Jan 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> He is under the impression a soul and chakra are exactly the same thing, so he would disagree with it not sucking souls.
> 
> Is the soul and chakra the same kanji?


No


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No



Isn't that interesting?

Not sure why anybody would think they are the same when the manga literally calls them different things.


----------



## Steven (Jan 18, 2020)

8 pages about the wanked Totsuka?


----------



## Turrin (Jan 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Isn't that interesting?
> 
> Not sure why anybody would think they are the same when the manga literally calls them different things.


Seems like the Spirit can be part of chakra though because Minato and Kushina seal their chakra into Naruto and it becomes a representation of their spirit or soul. So I think they are connected in a way though their are separate


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Seems like the Spirit can be part of chakra though because Minato and Kushina seal their chakra into Naruto and it becomes a representation of their spirit or soul. So I think they are connected in a way though their are separate



Yeah we know chakra can interact with the soul (RDS) but they are both their own unique traits. Plus the soul appears to be more metaphysical than chakra. The soul seems to have no specific rule binding it.


----------



## Tri (Jan 18, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh for fucks sake its this shit thread again
> 
> I swear man every few weeks this disgusting nonsense with no basis crops up and ruins the front page


Its quite ironic that an argument based on nlf creates threads that seemingly never end.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Tri said:


> Its quite ironic that an argument based on nlf creates threads that seemingly never end.



No limits 4 life


----------



## genii96 (Jan 18, 2020)

It required a rikudo level seal from two parties to seal her, totsuka ain't doing crap


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jan 26, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> ???
> 
> The fact that it doesn't suck souls proves souls and chakra are different?
> 
> ...





ShinAkuma said:


> Isn't that interesting?
> 
> Not sure why anybody would think they are the same when the manga literally calls them different things.



Bruh, KEEP UP. Soul is chakra, but chakra isn't necessarily the soul. Is a katon the soul just because they are both made of chakra?  Is Suiton the soul just because they are both chakra?  Is suiton = katon just because they are both chakra?  Chakra  can be many things, and one of those things is the soul.

Review:
1)We See Two Hiruzen souls being cut off from the rest of Hiruzen's soul and entering the reaper. No amount of fanfiction changes this observation.
2) We see a soul coming out of Konohamru's shadow clone. The original was observed to not be subjected to the effects of Naraka's jutsu. Upon poofing away, the Shadow clone's soul *disappeared *while the original Konohamaru continued charging forward alive and well. Therefore the souls are not shared. Occam's razor tells us that if the soul is seen coming out of the shadow clone, it's from that shadow clone. Not shared souls fanfic. The real Konohamaru has no stated or confirmed ability to suggest that his soul can exist outside of his body without killing him, and his soul obviously isn't in two places at once. It can't be both inside himself and inside his shadow clone. The other obvious counter example to this is KCM Naruto. When his OG was having its soul removed by Nagato, there is no evidence to suggest the other 13+ shadow clones he had were suffering/dying/getting weak, meanwhile it's pretty obvious that under normal conditions, even when the user has active shadow clones running about, the original's soul remains in his own body. Whereas in Hiruzen's case, the reaper's arm clearly penetrated all 3 of the Hiruzens and made them cough up blood. Nice fanfiction though.
3) You have issues with object identification. We clearly see that the material of Ashura clinging to Naruto is identical to the material of the soul as depicted in the Edo Tensei: Kai. Hagoromo calls this chakra, so did Mei.

Ghost has been shown to be synonymous with spirit multiple times. Spirit has been shown to be synonymous with soul multiple times:

*"word-soul*, *spirit/soul/*power of language" This comes from the sacred treasures toools

*"Setting free the restrained souls of the dead
The Release Method of “Edo Tensei”*
“Edo Tensei” - a jutsu that cannot be terminated even if the technique-user dies, a powerful technique of compelling force (a powerful technique that forces obedience to its contract). However, if and only if the dead person has residual willpower, there is a way to release the technique. Connect the dead person to the Release Seal - with this seal, the technique-user’s summoning contract is terminated, *and the dead person’s spirit will leave the body."

" Indra and Ashura crossed blades time and again, but the flames of their conflict could never be extinguished. Their souls continued to reincarnate over and over, with the reincarnations of each generation meeting the same fate."*
4) drop the fanfic. Minato sealed his own chakra with the RDS, and we only see a soul being sealed and a soul coming out. The only logical interpretation is that the soul is chakra.

We are told by Kabuto the reason Minato's soul could not be summoned was because his soul was SEALED. But nice try at the mental gymnastics by means of semantics tho.
5) Ino splitting her soul into two different targets still stands
6) RDS spliting Kurama's soul into two beings still stands. The soul is chakra, it carries chakra, RDS sucks souls, Kurama is a soul, and we soul material coming out of it. There is no secondary function. Kurama's having it's chakra sealed can be presumed to be a direct result of having its soul sealed.
7) Since the soul is the spirit, and the spirit is chakra, the soul is a form of chakra. Basic deductive reasoning here. Ignoring all the evidence in favour of what Narutoversity DOESN'T say doesn't help you. The same article equates the soul to the spirit.
8) Casting techniques with HANDSIGNS requires a soul. Shadow clones have souls because we see them casting ninjutsu with handsigns.
9) Tayuya's chakra spirits were called souls. No amount of fanfiction changes this fact.
10)Kakashi, Shikamaru, Databook, Ino herself, Dosu , and Sakura referred to mind transfer is moving the soul/spirit.
11) Dan's spirit technique releases his soul/spirit from his body.
*Additional evidence:*
Shukaku is a soul



"The Kazekage, feeling peril, made the decision to turn his son into the village’s secret weapon by affixing the “Sand Shukaku” *spirit* to the baby in his wife Karura’s womb…"




Soul is spirit: We know for a fact it was his soul: .



“The blade that severed the spirit of both arms.”

So spirit equals soul as per common sense , and as per all the other examples above.


Soul is chakra:


konohamaru shadow clone  soul is chakra. It poofed when the rest of the shadow clone poofed. When shadow clones poof chakra is returned to the original. That means the soul was cloned. If it was the original soul it wouldn't have poofed. If it was the original soul  konohamaru would have not been able to finish off pain, his soul would have been outside his body



 Minato had zero reason to put any chakra in the death reaper seal that was not necessary, nor is it ever stated that you can seal whatever you want. Two things get sealed . The soul of the caster and the soul of the caster's target, and the sealing is marked by the 8 trigram's seal on the user chest. Period.  His first and foremost goal was to seal his chakra in naruto so that he may see his father down the road, along with his wife and yang kurama. After sealing yin kurama, he spent his chakra summoning jiraiya's toad and also sealing kushina chakra , as well as yang  kurama's chakra, and was also bleeding out from the huge hole in the chest that was caused by kurama's finger nail,  . He was already on the cusp of death by the time he was sealing his own chakra in naruto. He would have had very little left, and his soul was seconds away from being devoured, which means any chakra he had left would have departed with his soul (which is his chakra as well)  into the reaper's tummy. When he was released from the reaper we see that kurama persisted in his soul. The databook entry says that his chakra had been sealed along with the nine tails, not that he sealed his own chakra, and we know the Reaper forcibly seals your own soul in it’s stomach. The soul itself must be chakra.




We are told that kushina met naruto within his soul:

  The soul resides in the inner mind/subconscious: 


We see several instances of this:













These next ones are from Chapters 653-654











We know what Naruto’s soul looks like as per these panels. 


We see what his soul looks like as it's fighting kurama. We see that same soul talking to minato  during the pain fight, and souls in general occupy this realm that exists within a person's inner mind as stated by hagoromo. We have seen dan talking to tsunade here, as well as obito to kakashi. We see orochimaru's soul In Sasuke tempting sasuke to use the curse mark. Notice how orochimaru has arms. And even though he looked like Sasuke at first, note that Naruto’s soul was able to shapeshift into young Obito and obito in general while lecturing Juubito inside the later’s mind when their chakra was connected was well, and it’s clearly Orochimaru because he rips off the mask and shows his true face.  Therefore, the one inside anko SHOULD ALSO HAVE ARMS. We already went over how placing a piece of chakra into someone else often places your consciousness , and it's a cloning technique. ,      ,         




















We also clearly see how naruto's shadow clone, during its fight with madara, had a soul that was communicating with its copy of kurama within its mind , meanwhile we KNOW for a fact the original naruto who was in kcm was fighting obito on the other war front. We also clearly see that the shadow clone is affected by madara ' s summoning technique, and it is forced to accept help from his own kurama in the form of chakra. It's also at its limit chakra wise meanwhile the original still had much more at the time and the original was only aware of what was going down after the clone poofed and transferred it’s memories. That's another instance of soul cloning, Kurama a confirmed soul was cloned yet again. Naruto's shadow clone had a soul which was cloned from the original corroborating the instances with Konohamaru and Hiruzen as well as Ino. We have seen other instances of Kurama being cloned:






And we know the Kurama avatar is actually the real Kurama being manifested because Madara was able to seal it in the Gedo Maozu and it’s removal stripped Naruro off Kurama completely:











Furthermore, there is the truth seeking orbs. When yin yang release is applied , we know they nullify ninjutsu attacks that arent also senjutsu attacks. Minato's soul arms  were  missing both when he was depicted inside his mind with Kurama and when he later ascended with all the previous Hokage. Every one else's souls had arms when depicted In humanoid form unless they were  severed like in Orochimaru's case. Here is no exception. Hashirama and Hiruzen's arms clearly have souls  We know truth seeking orbs nullify ninjutsu , and its certainly the case that his soul arms are missing because they were cut off by both juubito and Juubidara. The soul was nullified by a ninjutsu nullifying attack; another piece of evidence that the soul is chakra.

:













More evidence? Karura. We are told multiple times that her will ( conciousness ) seeped into gaara's sand after her death. Databook confirms her chakra is in the sand , and that her spirit persists in his sand. We know after death, conciousness persists in the soul after physical body dies. So her chakra IS HER SOUL in this context:










You have zero evidence that the soul existed prior to chakra in this manga. We have plenty of evidence suggesting the soul itself is chakra. Spirit = soul. Spirit was called chakra multiple times. Therefore, by deductive reasoning, the soul =chakra. ALL the evidence literally says the same thing. My theory has significant substantiation behind it. Yours? nothing more than a projection of your preconceived conceptions. Nothing necessitates that the soul existed before chakra. We have seen in this very manga that life can persist without a soul ( or how else do you explain Kabutomaru)? We are shown in told that Oro's cells were multiplying rapidly and taking over Kabuto's body, and it's cells eventually differentiated into brain cells, as it developed a consciousness. Keep in mind, Kabuto originally only placed a piece of Oro's corpse onto his arm, yet we see it spreading to Kabuto's eyes, and even giving Kabuto Oro's characteristic pigments. There are other examples, like Hashirama's cells in general, which were trying to overtake Danzo for instance, despite Hashirama's soul being in the reaper.



Turrin said:


> I was just translating the Databook so how can you disagree with me; you disagree with the author is more accurate...:



I don't disagree with your translation, @Turrin. I disagree with your interpretation of what the translated entry is saying. You are saying the Gedo Mazou doesn't absorb souls, but rather chakra. But it's clearly absorbing the soul, Human path pulled out identical material from Shiunze when using his soul ripping ability. My interpretation is that the soul IS a form of chakra, so Gedo mazou absorbs the soul because it's a type of chakra.



ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> I asked you if Preta can absorb two jutsu at the same time, which you failed to show it can.
> 
> ...



I don't care for your strawman arguments either. We fail to see Preta Path absorb the Genjutsu BEFORE he runs into the goddamm corridor. WHAT PART OF BEFORE the Fireball is launched escapes your reading comprehension? Do you know what the word 'before' means? Doesn't surprise me at this point if you don't understand that the word most can mean very lmao. If preta Path wasn't attempting to absorb the genjutsu before the fireball was even launched, then he likely can't absorb genjutsu period, as he has no reason not to absorb it if it is possible to do so. We literally see him attempt to absorb every other attack in this manga, the instant it reaches him. In fact, that is how Jiraiya deduced that the "FAT PAIN" is the only one who can absorb chakra through inductive reasoning.


The narrative for Jiriaya and pain clearly indicates that while ninjutsu would be absorbed genjutsu wouldn't. We know genjutsu is a form of chakra because its chakra converted into yin release Nature Transformation. We are told by the narrative that even though ninjutsu wouldn’t be absorbed, Genjutsu would be there best option. This is further supported by the fact that Preta Path failed to attempt absorbing the genjutsu before running into the narrow corridor, despite being aware it’s genjutsu.





ShinAkuma said:


> Nope.
> 
> If Kurama is 50% his original size he doesn't qualify as identical.
> 
> I'm through entertaining your metal gymnastics.



I'm through entertaining your ignorance.  NAME A SINGLE CLONE in this show that is completely  identical to the original. I'll wait. Water clone? 10 percent of the chakra of the original and MADE OF WATER. Still called a clone:
"The Water Clone Technique uses water as a medium"

EVEN IN REAL LIFE, CLONES ARE NOT 100 PERCENT IDENTICAL TO THE OG.






ShinAkuma said:


> I already explained this to you.
> 
> Moving along.


You didn't explain anything.  Moving along



ShinAkuma said:


> And neither is Zetsu.
> 
> Unless you want him to be.
> 
> Love those double standards.






“Bias and prejudice is a  weakness found in experts as well as ordinary people”

“ Evidence that experts are biased weakens their arguments or rebuts the arguments altogether depending on circumstances”


You don’t understand what source credibility is. Source credibility depends on the SUBJECT MATTER , their Knowledge and ability to utilize that knowledge, AND THE CONTEXT(who are they talking to? ( is it a monologue/aside/? are they talking to a friend or foe? are they biased/ do they have a reason to lie?. The *same source has different credibility* depending on these two variables. There is no double standard if the variable are not the same in each sample of comparison.



Ex:


Kabuto told us when displaying the Edo Tensei to Tobi that in order to release the Edo Tensei,

you need to weave the seals: dog horse and tiger.




Later, Kabuto (under truth serum (i.e.influence of genjutsu) tells us that the signs are :



Oh look, the signs are different, and we know they are correct because Itachi successfully released the edo tensei. So either this is an inconsistency, OR the better explanation is that  Kabuto lied to Tobi. Kabuto is clearly a credible source on how to release Edo Tensei, but he still lied/ gave misinformation to Obito. Why?


Because  Kabuto had every reason to lie to Obito, where it was applicable/practical/necessary. He intentionally lured Anko to Tobi’s hideout to pit Obito and the Alliance against each other. He couldn’t lie about how Edo Tensei were summoned because Obito demanded that he SHOWED him and gave him the resources to do so, but he COULD AND DID lie about how to dispel the edo tensei, because Obito had no way of knowing if it was true or not without sabotaging their combined military potential. Hell, even Obito suspected it was BS which is why he had Zetsu stick a spore on Kabuto. And if Kabuto willingly told him the truth, then he would lose all leverage he had on Tobi, as Tobi would be able to take his army away. Kabuto said: the only risk to the edo tensei was the fact he told Tobi about it.


Obito is the same way. He IS a credible source on the Uchiha  Massacre. He was THERE and was a large driving factor in the events that led up to it, and the event itself. Itachi said everything Tobi told Sasuke was true regarding Itachi’s involvement. So we are meant to take Obito as a credible source on the matter. Except he isn’t always a credible source. His source credibility changed when he had REASON TO LIE. Either him attacking Konoha with the nine tails is one of the biggest inconsistencies in the manga, or more reasonably,  HE LIED TO SASUKE TO COVER UP HIS INVOLVEMENT.










But hurdur, it’s the SAME SOURCE right?


Just because Albert Einstein is a credible source on physics/relativity doesn’t; mean he a
credible source on politics, brain cancer, or Ancient Rome. BUT HURDUR , its the same
source right? So by your logic, it is a double standard to cite his knowledge of physics but to
Take his statements in other fields less seriously (unless they are backed by other evidence). Well you’re wrong, and that’s what we call a fallacious appeal to authority.


Black Zetsu is a credible source because of his designated role and abilities. He is a sensor type which we know grants him the ability to perceive power level (like Karin telling us A4 has bijuu levels of chakra), he has the ability to gain large amounts of  information without being detected and we  are told AND SEE that he watches major battles. Even before the supposed “retcon”, Kishimoto already hinted as early as Chapter 626 that Zetsu was observing the battle between Hashi and Madara at the VOTE:




We see that Hashirama is also pretty good at noticing when he is being watched: he has good intuition/6th sense for this







Then unironically, Kishimoto shows Black Zetsu’s recollection of the scene in Chapter 681. Zetsu is one of the few characters that can watch high level battles like this undetected. So Kishimoto clearly had Black Zetsu = Kaguya’s will as a concept well before it was even officially revealed that he was  supposedly “Madara’s will” in Chapter 656, nearly 30 chapters later. This is why I believe what I believe, he was watching pseudo- God tiers terraform the landscape, yet remains unimpressed, while is impressed by the Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade.


 Even so,  No source is perfect or completely reliable, but they get things right more often than not, which is why we default to what expert opinion says in the absence of other necessary information, because the expert has information we don’t have.  It’s easy to approximate the bounds of an expert’s knowledge. If something is out of the range of their expertise, then we can no longer cite their opinion as strong evidence in support of a conclusion.


I already told you Zetsu fails as a source in the KAGUYA fight because he has reason to lie and has SHOWN to lie about her abilities. That doesn’t mean that anything and everything that comes out of his mouth is false, but if he says something outlandish or is contradicted by something stated in the past, the default explanation is that it’s due to bias: He has no reason to tell ENEMIES the true limits of his precious Kaguya’s abilities aside from things that were already tangible knowns(like yin yang seals can seal Kaguya), and he has reason to exaggerate/lie in this CONTEXT, even if it’s just lying by omission. The reason he doesn’t fail as a source in the Itachi V Sasuke fight is because he had no such biases to Itachi. When Tsykuyomi ‘failed’, he literally said Sasuke was more talented than Itachi. So he doesn’t give a dam about Itachi, he respected his regular abilities, but he didn’t rate him that highly until he saw those Spirtitual ninja tools. HE was also talking to White Zetsu, an ally, and had no reason to lie to him. Furthermore, Itachi was an enemy to Akatsuki and Zetsu was aware of this.




Zetsu’s Pain  Arc statements were reinforced by the Author’s databook, so they were clearly meant to be portrayed as true. That is author verification that the character statement is true, and that Zetsu is a credible source. Therefore we default to what was established. Black Zetsu’s later, seemingly contradictory statement or lack there of on Totsuka’s ability to seal Kaguya  is likely to be an intentional contradiction- he had reason to lie, we have no reason to default to a statement that is very likely to have been influenced by bias. The author's word> greater than any character statement unless the author breaks his own rules. We default to what Kishimoto tells us, period, as he is the ultimate expert on his own story, even if he is highly inconsistent , unless we have reason to default to something else. But hurdur , ITS  the SAME SOURCE right? Kishimoto isn't always credible about how his own manga works, but we still default to him, even though he is hardly credible to begin with. SEE HOW THIS WORKS?

And don't even bring up generic Databook hyperbole either to try and make the Databook seem to be non-credible
>Amaterasu is as hot as the sun:

Easy to debunk. In it's debut, it's residual flames weren't emitting enough heat to melt Jiraiya or Naruto, nor burn through the walls of the building, despite them being right next to it. We default to what was established.
Three possibilities here:
1) The Naruto Sun isn't as hot as the sun in Real life. Nothing was established about the layout of the Naruto solar system to my knowledge. The Naruto sun can be cooler than our sun, yet still provide enough energy for life on Naruto Earth if the Naruto Earth is closer in orbit to the sun. Inverse square law dictates that the energy lost by a cooler sun is made up by the Earth recieving more of the energy emitted thanks to being closer.

2) Kishimoto has no idea how hot the real Sun is, entirely possible tbh.

3) Kishimoto is intentionally exaggerating, just wants to emphasize the flames are hot since they burned through a fire resistant toad.


>A3's nukite can cut through anything and everything.

False, it was established that he has chakra comparable to gyuki, therefore there is a limit to how much chakra he can put into his nukite. There are beings in the Naruto unviverse who have defensive techniques filled with chakra that is eons above Gyukii. It was  thereby established that A3 has a limit based on the limits of his chakra.

>Gaara's sand is an absolute defense.

False, because his chakra caps out at around Shukaku levels of chakra, there is a lit to his mother's chakra which is contained in the sand, and the sand itself is made of materials from the earth with limited density/tensile strength, which is why he tries to grind up more sand when possible. Which means there are limits. And we have seen those limits several times. At least the Yata Mirror somewhat substantiates its claim of being an absolute defense, it has the ability to change its properties in accordance with the attack it receives, so it doesn't have a static durability value  like most other shields do. 

This line of reasoning applies to basically every hyperbole in the databook, you can prove that they cannot be taken literally because to do so would create inconsistencies. Totsuka's statement is also technically hyperbolic, but we have no reason to believe it is hyperbolic relative to the rest of the narutoverse, because Kishi's expertise covers that. IF this was a cross fiction debate, Kishi's expertise no longer applies, I can no longer cite Databook 3 as the only evidence in support of my claim, and outside of that I have very little to base Totsuka sealing other things limitlessly, so I suspend judgement on it's ability to seal in that context, and take everything on a case by case basis.



Those weapons were almost certainly created by an Ohtotsuki tier character and left behind, the same way Hagoromo created a bunch of ninjutsu wielding tools and left them behind. I haven’t officially read Boruto yet but I have seen some spoilers.  With Boruto revealing all these new Alien characters, some of which who apparently have visited Earth before multiple times, time travel, and the fact that Isshiki was on earth this whole time, it’s not a bad hypothesis/conjecture. The databook lists them separately from Susano’o, and says that Susano’o wields these Spirit Weapons ( and the use of the caps in the databook signifies that Spirit Weapons are a specific object type, and is referred to as a proper noun), while Susano’o itself is shown/stated to be a ninjutsu/kekkai genkai formed from the user’s own chakra. We are told several people were searching for this blade, and BZ despite close observation of all relevant Uchiha, had never seen them before Itachi , and Susano’o itself is rare, so unlikely to have been awakened by a previous Uchiha. And the fact that Oro and Zetsu seemed to have incredible knowledge on it sans appearance (Oro  successfully recognized it based on the sensation of it’s sealing) means there was largely accurate  nformation on it was passed down from some written source.  If that’s the case, combined with the fact that FEW have ever seen it in person, it is not likely to have been used in any major battles in recent history. And based on the fact the YM has all 7 nature transformations  , whereas Itachi has only 5  (Water, Fire, Wind, Yin, Yang) , and that Totsuka’s genjutsu is far stronger than any of Itachi’s other genjutsu( Even his strongest Tsykuyomi variant  would do absolutely nothing to Kaguya), and the fact that there was no struggle for him sealing far stronger beings than himself, all suggests that the Mirror and Totsuka Blade are spiritual  ninja tools he found and equipped to his Susano’o. The ninjutsu that fuels them isn’t his own. So they aren’t his power.  So when Boruto reveals that some God Tier Otosuki created these weapons, then you will have been downplaying them.







ShinAkuma said:


> Let's try that again?
> 
> You need to establish consistency (and thus must understand the mechanic of the items you believe inconsistent).




1)Bro, the mechanic was established multiple times. There is a TEXTBOOK worth of examples of the soul being cloned. From tailed beasts to human beings. They all had arms. In principle, and IN PRACTICE, we saw that what Orochimaru does with the curse marks is identical to what Minato and Kushina did with Naruto's 8 trigrams seal. It is established multiple times already.  The Databook entry clearly states that the chakra INSIDE the curse mark is released, summoning Orochimaru. Which means whatever is coming out had to be already present inside. Corroborated by Orochimaru saying "I've been watching from within Anko this WHOLE TIME". 


2) 
BE INTERNALLY CONSISTENT. If the soul is not cloned, and there is only one soul that comes from the original , and it apparently can exist in any given clone at any given moment ( based on your faulty excuse for why we see a soul coming out of a Konohmaru SHADOW CLONE), then we have no way of knowing where Oro's soul was when his body was sealed by Itachi. It could have been in that Oro, or in Anko, or in Kabuto. We are shown later it's in Anko. No idea when it got there. Too bad he never used this technique at any point prior to this an instead relied on the other transference technique even when his life was on the line lol. And a body means nothing. Orochimaru's new body came from the flesh Juugo took from Kabuto. Did you miss that? The chakra/soul was given a new body to live in after being unsealed. And for the Orochimaru that came out of Sasuke back in Chapter 392), that isn't proof either. Chakra itself can take on a physical body, or did you neglect the fact that shadow clones are a thing? Shadow clones even bleed like the OG does and get battered/bruised. We also see that Gyuki was bleeding after tanking it's own bijuu dama, so even a pure chakra construct like a tailed beast can bleed. So there are already multiple precedents for chakra forming physical bodies as well. Totsuka seals the soul, if it actually pierces it, but it isn't limited to piercing the soul, as it sealed a Kusanagi sword (ninja tool) and a hydra serpent (ninjutsu technique). No evidence that the Orochimaru Totsuka sealed was even the OG, let alone had the soul inside of it. All we are told is that it was chakra rushing to the surface of Sasuke's body, as explained by Black Zetsu, which is ambiguous.
You have ZERO proof no matter how you look at the situation. 

Either :

1) The Orochimaru Totsuka sealed was a clone, meaning the original was in anko for whatever 
" this whole time" means.

2)or if it was the original that Totsuka sealed, then the Orochimaru that came out of Anko is a clone and lacks the arm souls just like all the other clones do due to inconsistency. (We saw that the orochimaru spirit in PART ONE kid sasuke had ARMS)!

Either way, an Orochimaru was sealed for all time. So no proof of a bypass.




ShinAkuma said:


> I could make a list but I suspect you're a lost cause.




YOU have no right to say such a thing when you have arguably posted just as much misinformation, if not more. I can make a list myself. Even your Boruto technology thing is misleading as far as I know. The tools store ninjutsu that was created by other people, which means it originally came from someone who had a soul. It's no different than a paper bomb really as far as I know. If I'm wrong on that, I'lll admit it, but it doesn't change all the other evidence. 



Tri said:


> Its quite ironic that an argument based on nlf creates threads that seemingly never end.






WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh for fucks sake its this shit thread again
> 
> I swear man every few weeks this disgusting nonsense with no basis crops up and ruins the front page





Too bad my argument isn't a no limit fallacy. You just misuse the term. No limit fallacy doesn't say things can't be limitless relative to other things, just that you need to provide proof , and nothing is truly and absolutely invincible, every fictional world has upper limits. Invincibility is relative. There is truth in every hyperbole.
@WorldsStrongest this is rich coming from you. Most of the things you said were flat out false.  I proved that all 4 RSM users had limits to their sensing ( as even Kaguya couldn't sense Obito and Sakura sneaking into her dimension along with a ridoku SM clone). I debunked your other claims as well.
So whoever is using a no limits fallacy, take it up with them, as that isn't my argument. I proved that Itachi had no reason to use Totsuka to seal Bijuu (one that would be suspicious as fuck to his partner Kisame) and the goal of Akatsuki was to seal Bijuu in the Gedo Mazou. I proved that Nagato was bijuu tier, because he absorbed a V2 Bee cloak which is comparable to a V2 A4 cloak ( confirmed bijuu level cloaks), and I proved that his red hair  remained even after using  chibaku tensei and the fact that V2 Bee's cloak >>>>>>>>> is greater than Nagato's reserves, meaning chibaku Tensei took nothing out of him really if he can  cast it in a weakened state against Konoha, when combined with edo tensei chakra refilling. I can't remember a single credible claim you made, so if anything it was your argument that was disgusting and fallacious.

BZ knows Kaguya, and he knows the Totsuka Blade ( having studied it and seeing it in person), it isn't a NLF to cite his expert opinion (along with DB3) as strong inductive evidence that the blade seals her. No evidence at all to suggest that the Totsuka blade isn't limitless (in the narutoverse that is). We default to what the expert tells us in when we are ourselves don't have enough evidence to satisfy a claim, in so far as the person's expertise is sufficient( and BZ, having seen much of shinobi's history and many of the most powerful beings to reside it would have sufficient expertise to claim the Totsuka Blade is almighty.  Everyone who is relevant in the verse has  a soul/chakra network, so no one has blanket immunity to  all genjutsu, so it's just a matter of power.


"Correct uses of argument from authority involve deferred justification: Insofar as your claim accords with what experts on the issue believes, then your claim is also supported by the  the experts are relying on, even if you may not yourself be aware of what that evidence in fact is."
We default to what Zetsu and DB3 tells us until further notice. Just like you default to your parents/birth certificate to know your date of birth, you default to your doctor for medical diagnose, you default to your physic teacher/physics textbooks for knowledge on physics, etc.... until you find evidence to the contrary.

The Totsuka blade is an invincible blade to HIS knowledge, which means it can likely seal at minimum every chakra carrying person he knows of,  since his knowledge is vast and wide.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 26, 2020)

@ThirdRidoku 

That’s not my interpretation; that’s what the Data-book literally says; it absorbs chakra.


----------

