# Current Naruto has surpassed Hashirama.



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2012)

Pretty self-explanatory. Naruto's extreme speed, strength, and power put him on another entirely different tier than what Hashirama is being hyped on. Hell, he can even heal himself without seals-just like Hashirama could. In Biju Mode, Naruto's firepower should seriously decimate any wood construct that Hashirama tries. 

We still just have his physical feats against Hiruzen as well. Hashirama has high level taijutsu, but he's lacking in speed. 

All in all, Naruto should have surpassed Hashirama now, and would surprise Madara and Kabuto knowing this.


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## gaseoussnake (Mar 3, 2012)

Naruto surpassed Hashirama a long time ago. A Naruto with an improved SM (Longer duration, ability to make more SM clones etc) should be stronger than the Shodai


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## g_core18 (Mar 3, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M[/YOUTUBE]


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2012)

g_core, could you provide reasons why instead of flamebaiting?


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## Ghost (Mar 3, 2012)

Orly? Bijuudama, GG. Speedblitz, GG.


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## maupp (Mar 3, 2012)

Op u're right...i think these recent hypes have put some people off...the current naruto would babyshake hashi...hashi from his feats and even his current hypes still has nothing on naruto....seem like people have forgottenwhat they saw a couple of chapters back..

but Op dnt worry when we get back to tobi vs naruto fight, naruto will make some eats their own words and the comparison will stop from there when they'll really realise how far above naruto is compared to hashi even with his hypes


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## Superstars (Mar 3, 2012)

Yes, this is quite evident. Especially now with all those Chakra monsters inside of Naruto.
He is currently the strongest shinobi [other than Tobi] on the battlefield right now.


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## BlinkST (Mar 3, 2012)

What about Tobi?


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## Superstars (Mar 3, 2012)

I don't think he is stronger than Tobi but we shall soon see. Naruto right now has help against him.^


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## AoshiKun (Mar 3, 2012)

Hashirama would be able to seal Naruto with Mokuton and even Bijuu damas doesn't seems to be a big problem for him otherwise Madara and Kurama wouldn't have lost.

That man was the shit untill the manga states Naruto surpassed him everything is just assumption. IMO the Senju was still stronger.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> Hashirama would be able to seal Naruto with Mokuton and even Bijuu damas doesn't seems to be a big problem for him otherwise Madara and Kurama wouldn't have lost.


Um...would mokuton even worked on the _mixed_ chakra of Naruto and Kurama? Its not just Kurama's anymore, its an entirely new type that Naruto and Kurama made to form the Biju Mode and enhanced Chakra Mode.

And Naruto can _aim_ Bijudama better than five other Tailed Beasts and overpower it. 


> That man was the shit untill the manga states Naruto surpassed him everything is just assumption. IMO the Senju was still stronger.


Does Hashirama have any of the same speed or strength that Naruto displayed, Aoshikun?


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## AoshiKun (Mar 3, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Um...would mokuton even worked on the _mixed_ chakra of Naruto and Kurama? Its not just Kurama's anymore, its an entirely new type that Naruto and Kurama made to form the Biju Mode and enhanced Chakra Mode.
> 
> And Naruto can _aim_ Bijudama better than five other Tailed Beasts and overpower it.


Why not? Yamato sealed Naruto while his chakra was still mixed with Kuarama's chakra before.



> Does Hashirama have any of the same speed or strength that Naruto displayed, Aoshikun?


I have no ideia because we only have a glimpse of his power but speed and strength aren't everything. There are ways to win against someone who has physical advantage.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> Why not? Yamato sealed Naruto while his chakra was still mixed with Kuarama's chakra before.


No, Yamato sealed Kurama's chakra only. When Kurama's chakra is bubbling red or makes the Version 2 shroud, that's not Naruto's chakra. 

Naruto and Kurama's chakra literally mix together in 570, forming a new one. 


> I have no ideia because we only have a glimpse of his power but speed and strength aren't everything. There are ways to win against someone who has physical advantage.


Naruto has an overwhelming advantage here though. From what we saw, Hashirama isn't on that level. Naruto could blitz him before he could even make a Mokuton seal.


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## AoshiKun (Mar 3, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, Yamato sealed Kurama's chakra only. When Kurama's chakra is bubbling red or makes the Version 2 shroud, that's not Naruto's chakra.
> 
> Naruto and Kurama's chakra literally mix together in 570, forming a new one.


Naruto's chakra and Kurama's chakra always mixed when Naruto uses the Bijuu power. The difference now is Kurama freely gives his chakra and take nothing back.



> Naruto has an overwhelming advantage here though. From what we saw, Hashirama isn't on that level. Naruto could blitz him before he could even make a Mokuton seal.


Battledome logic *never* works in manga.


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## KAKASHI10 (Mar 3, 2012)

Naruto surpassing the 1. 
Yes and No. And this is thanks to KISHIMOTO himself. He hype the 3erd to oblivion when he fought Oro, the 1 and the 2 at the same time. 
He tends to Hype people based on what is going on in the manga. So rationally and logically sadly we cant estimate it. because Kishi can pull something out of no where. 

Having said this. I will say that based on the current hype and situation. Naruto is on par with the 1 in some areas and below him in others. 

For example the 1 has gen, the 1 can heal himself, the 1 can control the kyubi. 
When kyubi fought against him, kyubi was under sharinga. SO it was not something he did by himself. 
CRAP I just wrote more than my 4 limit lines


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## Dolohov27 (Mar 3, 2012)

Naruto surpass Hashirama with just Sagemode.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> Naruto's chakra and Kurama's chakra always mixed when Naruto uses the Bijuu power. The difference now is Kurama freely gives his chakra and take nothing back.


When Naruto used the tailed forms or the initial form, it has always been Kurama's chakra. Remember the description of V2? Compressing Biju chakra down to human form.



> Battledome logic *never* works in manga.


...even when Naruto fights this way to deflect five Bijudama?


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## kagegak (Mar 3, 2012)

Op i completly agree with you 
Naruto is currently the second strongest shinobi alive 
The guy fucking deflect 5 bijuu damas 
Hes physically the fastest ninja 
Nobody except for bee gai and kakashi have seen his full power wait before
Madara sees BM naruto


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## shintebukuro (Mar 3, 2012)

Certainly a possibility.


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## lazer (Mar 3, 2012)

Hashirama's mokuton i.e. attacking forest and sleep powder would absolutely rape naruto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2012)

lazer said:


> Hashirama's mokuton i.e. attacking forest and sleep powder would absolutely rape naruto.


Naruto would vape either with a Bijudama.


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

It's pretty hilarious sometimes how deep into the hype people are. Naruto has likely been stronger than the First Hokage since he beat Pain.

And even if by some chance he wasn't, he certainly is now.


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## lazer (Mar 3, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto would vape either with a Bijudama.



There's a video with madara and kyuubi vs hashirama and it showed the 100% kurama (not the 50% kurama that naruto has) fired a bijuu dama at hashirama. Hashirama reflected it using mokuton. Sorry but hashirama is a monster.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 3, 2012)

Certainly plausible, but I'm not seeing the point of such a thread in the TELEGRAMS. 

Shodai's limited showcasing on panel makes it awfully hard to argue either direction, thus such a discussion is pointless.

If your entire notion is that Naruto's feats/jutsu are greater thus he's > Hashirama, then thanks for being "Captain Obvious."

The bottom line is that you are comparing a character whose primarily supported by hype vs. one whose rise to power is feats.

Words do not substitute for actual showing in the battledome, thus using such a logic....... Naruto will always win 9/10.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 3, 2012)

lazer said:


> There's a video with madara and kyuubi vs hashirama and it showed the 100% kurama (not the 50% kurama that naruto has) fired a bijuu dama at hashirama. Hashirama reflected it using mokuton. Sorry but hashirama is a monster.



Non canon.


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

What's funny is that some actually believe in their heads that Naruto will never surpass Hashirama or something.


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## lazer (Mar 3, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Non canon.



Canon or not, it's highly likely that in the battle between madara and kurama vs hashirama, that kurama used bijuu dama and hashirama countered it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2012)

lazer said:


> There's a video with madara and kyuubi vs hashirama and it showed the 100% kurama (not the 50% kurama that naruto has) fired a bijuu dama at hashirama. Hashirama reflected it using mokuton. Sorry but hashirama is a monster.


Jinchuriki can more effectively control a Biju's power than a biju on their own, Lazer. And Naruto has access to Kurama's full Yang Chakra, his Yin is just gone. Notice how Kurama's Biju Mode was about the same size or bigger than the Biju they were facing...alluding to Kurama having an amount of Yin Chakra back. 

And said Bijudama that was deflected wasn't aimed like how Naruto could, nor did it just explode.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

Lol people saying "It was 100% Kurama so Shodai > Naruto" first of all we dont know and its possible the missing half was re-generated either with pure Yang or got its yin back, second even if not we dont know the chakra sealing had any effect on Kurama's power, thirdly its actually possible that the chakra sealing actually makes Kurama stronger when fighting with a Jinchuuriki specially one that has extreme yang charka like Uzumakis and Senju have.

That being said Kurama =/= BM Naruto, its on another different tier and going on feats BM Naruto would shit on Kurama alone. He has all the power of the beast and none of the weaknesses. Its like saying that because in the fusion Trunks had to lower his power level significantly to fuse with Gotenks then 100% Trunks > fused Gotenks which is ridiculous.

BM Naruto is basically a fusion, its just not a merger of chakra, but of qualities too, qualities which Naruto has shown supreme mastery at exploiting. It is to note this was shown with an INCOMPLETE BM.

Hashirama has no feats and even applying his hype logically to compete with the INCOMPLETE BM, let alone the complete one.

If you have any doubts then add that on top of being the incomplte first showing Naruto already has chakra from at least 7 Bijuus and its possible he has going by the 9 tomoes aura chakra from 9 Bijuus.

So if by some miracle Hashirama > incomplete BM Naruto, its hard to say for complete BM Naruto and even if so there is no way Hashirama can compete now with Naruto with the chakra of 7 (possibly 9) tailed beasts.

You would need the wankery version of "Hashirama had 8 Bijuus under his control" to even have a fair fight against current Naruto who has:

- In his next BM it will be complete as the incomplete thing was only for the first
- Chakra from 7, possibly 9 tailed beasts
- "That" jutsu which havent even been shown but we know Naruto has the requirements now to use and knows about it

Yeah Hashirama stronger than current Naruto......


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## taeko (Mar 3, 2012)

Naruto might or has surpased Hashirama. But still I like Hashirama above Naruto


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## lazer (Mar 3, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jinchuriki can more effectively control a Biju's power than a biju on their own, Lazer. And Naruto has access to Kurama's full Yang Chakra, his Yin is just gone. Notice how Kurama's Biju Mode was about the same size or bigger than the Biju they were facing...alluding to Kurama having an amount of Yin Chakra back.



So are you saying 100% kurama<50% bm kurama? if so, then we have a difference of opinion 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And said Bijudama that was deflected wasn't aimed like how Naruto could, nor did it just explode.



100% kurama bijuu dama>50% bm kurama bijuu dama.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

lazer said:


> So are you saying 100% kurama<50% bm kurama? if so, then we have a difference of opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 100% kurama bijuu dama>50% bm kurama bijuu dama.



Kurama =/= BM, stop like acting as if Kurama is the only factor in BM it isnt and going by feats BM shits on Kurama, it was explicitilly said jinchuurikified Bijuus > Bijuus.

That's like saying that because Gohan would have to lower his power level at least by half to merge with Goku the fusion of Gohan and Goku < Gohan at 100%.

Its a fusion, it is just not Kurama, BM Naruto has powers Kurama himself could never use like the blitz speed, using bijuu powers in human form, etc.

Secondly we dontk now if the sealed 50% is still missing and even if it is if it has any effect on a jinchuurikified Bijuu.


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## αce (Mar 3, 2012)

Why do I get the feeling that this is a pre-emptive, butthurt, damage control thread?
The same people who say we shouldn't judge Hashirama's power by hype, are the exact same people to dismiss his superiority over their favourite characters by comparing his hype to their feats.


Tobi respected Hashirama for his power, yet he still looks at Naruto like an insignificant naive child who doesn't even have enough fire power to make him flinch.


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

The Kyuubi's power is no different. It's Kurama's chakra capacity that is different, not its power. Still, the Kyuubi already had so much power to begin with, that whatever amount that it lost almost seems irrelevant. Where is my proof for this? Kurama by itself exceeded the combined power of 5 bijuu pooling their power as one.

The strength or power of the Kyuubi's chakra has not been altered. 

BM Naruto is definitely stronger than Kurama by himself. Naruto with his power and full arsenal of abilities, more than makes up for the missing half of Kurama's power. It doesn't just make up for it, it certainly also exceeds it.
'


> ♠Ace♠ said:
> 
> 
> > Why do I get the feeling that this is a pre-emptive, butthurt, damage control thread?
> ...



You must not be talking about the same Tobi that was blown away by Naruto's power, saying in the viz translation "There's no way his power could be pushing me this hard."

Naruto's power is literally pushing Tobi far harder than he ever anticipated. So you might want to revise that line of yours, because it's quite a bit far off from the truth of what's currently transpiring. He also, with regards to Naruto's power, only spoke of knowing Naruto's limits in the past tense, not in the present.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

Fuck, the sensor sensed a chakra capacity that was confused with the FULL chakra of the fox plus "something else" in Naruto when he was in FREAKING BASE.


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## αce (Mar 3, 2012)

> You must not be talking about the same Tobi that was blown away by Naruto's power, saying in the viz translation "There's no way his power could be pushing me this hard."



I saw the Viz translation. And I've seen multiple other ones. Apparently you failed to read it in context. He was feeling an awkward feeling and in question he wondered what was causing the weird atmosphere. He then said that there's no plausible way someone of Naruto's level could be pushing him to feel what he was feeling. He wasn't attributing his feeling or current condition to Naruto's power, it was implying that he was confused, as he didn't know what was causing him to feel awkward.

Also, this should be blatantly obvious given the chronology of the battle. Naruto just nuked two mountains, and at that specific moment, Tobi happened to be scared? This doesn't take a university level reading ability to be able to figure out.

Shintebukoru already covered this like a million times. There's no need for me to repeat what's been said and done. He wasn't scared of Naruto's power level. He was scared of something else, which hasn't yet been revealed. Although it's like his confidence and some will of fire/Hashirama connection bullshit which has been overplayed by this point.


Not that it matters anyway. Preemptive thread is massively preemptive. I'm willing to get into this argument, but given Hashirama's lack of panel time, comparing feats is not a viable way to approach this. Hashirama's hype puts him above some individuals clearly, but I'll agree it's not enough to debate his superiority over Naruto yet.

Either you debate it from the perspective of the story line, and the dialogue given, or we all just shut up and wait for his feats. If you want to get into the former, I'd be willing to get into that, as it's been implied more times than I probably remember that Hashirama and Madara are Sasuke and Naruto's future benchmarks.


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## lazer (Mar 3, 2012)

Lol, the bm naruto wank is strong here  You guys think naruto + 50% kurama>100% kurama? 

Anyway....back on topic, flower tree world would rip bm naruto a new asshole. And i really find it retarded how ppl here are saying "current naruto>hashirama" when current naruto's bm last's 5 minutes max


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## nadinkrah (Mar 3, 2012)

Hashirama is cooler. so no


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## Saru (Mar 3, 2012)

Current Naruto has not surpassed Hashirama. He was compared directly to RS.

Naruto's not even gotten the hang of BM yet... Way to jump the gun. 

**


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

Astrαl said:


> Current Naruto has not surpassed Hashirama. He was compared directly to RS.
> 
> Naruto's not even gotten the hang of BM yet... Way to jump the gun.
> 
> **



Rikudou Sennin himself made a prophecy about Naruto, pretty much implying that Naruto would become better than him, and all bijuu are convinced that he was certainly talking about Naruto. Kabuto's words? Or the Rikudou Sennin and the bijuu's words. This is too easy.



lazer said:


> Lol, the bm naruto wank is strong here  You guys think naruto + 50% kurama>100% kurama?
> 
> Anyway....back on topic, flower tree world would rip bm naruto a new asshole. And i really find it retarded how ppl here are saying "current naruto>hashirama" when current naruto's bm last's 5 minutes max



According to the Rikudou Sennin, Naruto is going to be stronger than him. Yes, I'd say that beats Hashirama.


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## Csdabest (Mar 3, 2012)

Dude can create a forest instantanously. And guess what. His Mokuton  can supress bijuu chakra. Naruto would get tooled by Hashirama


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

Csdabest said:


> Dude can create a forest instantanously. And guess what. His Mokuton  can supress bijuu chakra. Naruto would get tooled by Hashirama



Translation: Hashirama would tool rikudou sennin with 10 tails sealed inside him.

Let's say I'm not convinced that Hashirama could suppress all that power while it's inside of Naruto. Also, Hashirama may have to suppress the power of 7 combined bijuu and not just one.

Create a forest instantly? Naruto can wipe out that entire forest instantly. I'm not sure what the point is....

Hashirama's signature jutsu, deep forest emergence, was clowned by Naruto with only a tiny amount of the Kyuubi's chakra. This is the page where it happened.


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## Octavian (Mar 3, 2012)

sakura's sleep bombs solo both of them


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

Well, come on why even bring Sakura into this discussion? We know she could solo all three ninja, Hashirama, Naruto and the Rikudou Sennin all at the same time if she wanted to.

There's a reason why there are no Naruto > Sakura threads. Because everybody knows it isn't true


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

Csdabest said:


> Dude can create a forest instantanously. And guess what. His Mokuton  can supress bijuu chakra. Naruto would get tooled by Hashirama



Then going by your logic Hashirama > RS with the 10 tails.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 3, 2012)

Can I point out that the OP reasoning is totally flawed. Let me illustrate with another example



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Pretty self-explanatory. Naruto's extreme speed, strength, and power put him on another entirely different tier than what Hashirama is being hyped on. Hell, he can even heal himself without seals-just like Hashirama could. In Biju Mode, Naruto's firepower should seriously decimate any wood construct that Hashirama tries.
> 
> We still just have his physical feats against Hiruzen as well. Hashirama has high level taijutsu, but he's lacking in speed.



Hashirama is above Naruto pretty self-explanatory. Hashirama's first rate mokuton, bijuu control and genjutsu put him on another entirely different tier than what Naruto is being hyped on. Hell, Hashirama can heal himself without seals better than Naruto can. Mokuton should seriously render all of Naruto's bijuu mode attacks moot. 

You see what I did there? This is not an invalid comparison. It is based on Hashirama without much relative judgement vs. Naruto. The idea that speed determines fight is silly. Raikage is super fast but could not defeat Sasuke. 

To me, given the fact that we know more about Naruto than Hashirama, we can't really judge them on "feats". The correct way to judge their relative power is  through power-scaling. Naruto's direct comparison is Sasuke. Sasuke has EMS just as Uchiha Madara. However, Madara also had the kyuubi, which makes Sasuke less powerful than Uchiha Madara was. So, in essence, Sasuke is below Hashirama in terms of power. Naruto, who is almost always equal to Sasuke could not be that much more powerful than Sasuke. So, one would expect that Naruto is not stronger than Hashirama. If he were stronger than Hashirama, he should stomp Sasuke. Hashirama defeated a Uchiha Madara who was stronger than current Sasuke, then Naruto if he were stronger than Hashirama, should completely outclass Sasuke. Let's wait and see how they compare


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Can I point out that the OP reasoning is totally flawed. Let me illustrate with another example
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or perhaps KCM = EMS Sasuke and thus Sasuke will get Rinnegan for current Naruto.

Let me ask you a question, supposing Naruto really got the chakra from all 9 tailed beasts or will (using the 9 tomoe aura as reference) if Naruto got a literal Juubi or Rikudou Sennin power up, would you still claim Hashirama is stronger merely because of Sasuke?


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

I feel that seal that Naruto has is something special. The one he showcased in chapter 499. I'm not sure what the purpose of it is yet, but there's something special about that seal. Could it honestly just be the case that Naruto can only use it in the bijuu psyche plain?

It has to be something that he can probably use in an actual battle outside of the bijuu psyche plain.

Personally, the manga will end with people still saying that Hashirama is stronger than Naruto. The manga will also end with people saying Madara, the individual who is weaker than Hashirama, is also stronger than Naruto. Just watch and see lol.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> I feel that seal that Naruto has is something special. The one he showcased in chapter 499. I'm not sure what the purpose of it is yet, but there's something special about that seal. Could it honestly just be the case that Naruto can only use it in the bijuu psyche plain?
> 
> It has to be something that he can probably use in an actual battle outside of the bijuu psyche plain.



Son, Naruto could get a literal Rikudou Sennin mode, including the seal RS used on Juubi and people would still say Hashirama > him based on definitions and hype.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 3, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Or perhaps KCM = EMS Sasuke and thus Sasuke will get Rinnegan for current Naruto.



Qui vivra, verra



Orochibuto said:


> Let me ask you a question, supposing Naruto really got the chakra from all 9 tailed beasts or will (using the 9 tomoe aura as reference) if Naruto got a literal Juubi or Rikudou Sennin power up, would you still claim Hashirama is stronger merely because of Sasuke?



While I am a fan of shodai, I am not unreasonable. At some point both Naruto and Sasuke are going to be stronger than shodai. If Sasuke gets another power-up beyond EMS to be on this current Naruto level, I will concede that he was stronger than shodai



SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> I feel that seal that Naruto has is something special. The one he showcased in chapter 499. I'm not sure what the purpose of it is yet, but there's something special about that seal. Could it honestly just be the case that Naruto can only use it in the bijuu psyche plain?
> 
> It has to be something that he can probably use in an actual battle outside of the bijuu psyche plain.
> 
> Personally, the manga will end with people still saying that Hashirama is stronger than Naruto. The manga will also end with people saying Madara, the individual who is weaker than Hashirama, is also stronger than Naruto. Just watch and see lol.



I doubt you will find people at the end of the manga claiming that shodai was always stronger than Naruto. However, people claiming Madara was always stronger, that is something else. Uchiha fans are in a class of their own


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## Rokudaime (Mar 3, 2012)

Shodai: I am SHODAI!
Naruto: I am Naruto!
Shodai: You can't defeat my wood!
Naruto: Yes! I can ! **kage bunshin + feint**
Shodai: NARUTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Naruto: You may have better chance if you fused with Madara....~yawn~
Kurama: GG Shodai


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> I doubt you will find people at the end of the manga claiming that shodai was always stronger than Naruto. However, people claiming Madara was always stronger, that is something else. Uchiha fans are in a class of their own



There are people claiming Itachi > RS


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## Senjuclan (Mar 3, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> There are people claiming Itachi > RS



That was my point. The Uchiha fans are in a class of their own. We, shodai fans and there are only a few of us, are reasonable. We don't expect him to be the strongest at the end of the story. Heck, we don't even think he was stronger than Kabuto who made that comment


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## KAKASHI10 (Mar 3, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> That was my point. The Uchiha fans are in a class of their own. n



COUGH COUGH COUGH, Im a proud fan of ITACHI UCHIHA, and I'm not  like that.


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Son, Naruto could get a literal Rikudou Sennin mode, including the seal RS used on Juubi and people would still say Hashirama > him based on definitions and hype.



Yep, it's obvious at this point. I understand doubting other characters who aren't the main character, but to doubt the actual main character, believing that he has not surpassed a Hashirama who fought EMS Uchiha Madara, and had an extremely tough time of it even though he won? People honestly think that the main character will end this manga being weaker than Hashirama, when all signs point to the fact that the Fourth Hokage was better than the man, even if he wasn't packing more raw power?

People act as if the Madara they are seeing now, with the power of the six paths, is exactly who Hashirama fought and defeated. Madara didn't have Hashirama's power further augmenting his own, and he certainly didn't have the Rinnegan and Mokuton. At least, it certainly doesn't seem as if he had the Rinnegan. Hmm, ya, maybe you're right Senjuclan. I hope nobody is crazy enough to suggest that Hashirama is stronger than Naruto, even come the end. This Tobi vs Naruto fight ain't over, and Naruto has plenty more to showcase.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 3, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Yep, it's obvious at this point. I understand doubting other characters who aren't the main character, but to doubt the actual main character, believing that he has not surpassed a Hashirama who fought EMS Uchiha Madara, and had an extremely tough time of it even though he won? People honestly think that the main character will end this manga being weaker than Hashirama, when all signs point to the fact that the Fourth Hokage was better than the man, even if he wasn't packing more raw power?



Are there seriously people who claim Hashirama will always be better? that is silly. I think RS will always be stronger but other than RS himself, anyone else will be weaker than Naruto and Sasuke. I have seen people contend that shodai was stronger than current Naruto but not future Naruto. I believe he was stronger and since I am going out now, I will write a thread tomorrow to explain my reasons



SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> People act as if the Madara they are seeing now, with the power of the six paths, is exactly who Hashirama fought and defeated. Madara didn't have Hashirama's power further augmenting his own, and he certainly didn't have the Rinnegan and Mokuton. At least, it certainly doesn't seem as if he had the Rinnegan. Hmm, ya, maybe you're right Senjuclan. I hope nobody is crazy enough to suggest that Hashirama is stronger than Naruto, even come the end. This Tobi vs Naruto fight ain't over, and Naruto has plenty more to showcase.



current Madara is nasty and we have only seen a fraction of his power (no shira tensei, no MS genjutsu, etc.). The difference between this Madara iteration and when he fought Shodai was the level of seriousness in the fight. He thinks that fight was on a different level. What the hell do I know


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## AoshiKun (Mar 3, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> That was my point. The Uchiha fans are in a class of their own. We, shodai fans and there are only a few of us, are reasonable. We don't expect him to be the strongest at the end of the story. Heck, we don't even think he was stronger than Kabuto who made that comment


*Never* generalize.
There are *always* some reasonable people in every fanbase. If you don't be biased, you will see that.


Orochibuto said:


> There are people claiming Itachi > RS


Most of them are j/k threads just like that thread about Konohamaru owning Pain and that shit thread had 5 starts.


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## Rawri (Mar 3, 2012)

I know you are a Naruto fan and you want it to be true, but I don't know about that. I don't think Naruto is on 'another entirely different tier'. Hard to say who's stronger, but I'm pretty certain no one would 'decimate' the other.

If anything Hashirama should be stronger, for now. Only 2 chapters ago Kabuto said 'There aren't ninjas on the same level of the First Hokage Senju Hashirama... all people agree on that'. Though one can argue if Kishi actually meant that or if it's only Kabuto talking (and since he hasn't seen Naruto, it holds little weight).

Anyway, it's hard to compare the two. Featwise Hashirama is largely superior to Naruto. But Naruto has the hype (Child of the Prophecy ) and will sooner or later surpass everyone (RS aside). Has he done it yet? We don't know. 

Imo this thread seems more like some kind of damage control.


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## Dim Mak (Mar 3, 2012)

I really don't know, he may have surpassed him. Kabuto's statement about Hashirama's power make me doubt the situation though.




Sygurgh said:


> Non canon.


I'm not entirely sure, but I thought Kishi was kind of involved with the game?


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## Whirlpool (Mar 3, 2012)

Kishi pissed me off with Hashirama.

"Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage, I am Iruka, i know stuff like this"

"Minato lolpwns that n00b"

"Thoust is Sir Kabuto, i proclaim Hashirama as thee strongest Hokage....just saiyan..."

Pick one Kishi 

INB4 Tobirama the strongest


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## Dim Mak (Mar 3, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> Kishi pissed me off with Hashirama.
> 
> "Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage, I am Iruka, i know stuff like this"
> 
> ...


What about Tsunade?


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 3, 2012)

I know it might sound strange Senjuclan, but if you read some people's posts, they literally say that Hashirama would annihilate Naruto, like it wouldn't even be close. For them to say such a thing at this point in the manga, to me, is an indication that they will always say this, even when the manga officially ends.

I understand saying that Hashirama could really give Naruto a run for his money, but people are talking like current Naruto would be fodder to Hashirama. This is even all considering that a base Naruto with only a tiny fraction of Kurama's chakra, was able to easily counter Hashirama's Jukai Kotan, which is apparently Hashirama's signature technique. If Naruto did that with but a tiny fraction of the Kyuubi's power, and while only in base mode, I'm stunned to understand how some are of the impression that Naruto isn't firmly in the same league as Hashirama the very moment he completely merged his chakra with the Kyuubi's.

How could he be capable of deflecting five bijuu dama like they were nothing, moving at a speed so incredibly fast that all five bijuu dama had to have seemed like they were at a complete stand still, as far as he was concerned. Then he just goes on to engage in a head on fight against 5 bijuu like it's nothing, where he just man handles the bijuu, even going so far as to completely overpower and counter 5 bijuu dama that were combined into one massive attack like it was child's play. How Naruto could do all this and somehow still not be in Hashirama's league is just beyond my comprehension. People talk about Hashirama being compared to the Rikudou Sennin by Kabuto, but we see all this and a Rikudou Sennin prophecy about Naruto himself with all bijuu serving as witness that the Sage was speaking about Naruto, and we are to believe that Naruto can't be in the same league as Hashirama? It might be time we start thinking that a Naruto and Rikudou Sennin comparison might be most appropriate than any other.



> I really don't know, he may have surpassed him. Kabuto's statement about Hashirama's power make me doubt the situation though.



Why are people ignoring a prophecy from the Rikudou Sennin himself about Naruto being the example of true power, and someone who will lead all the combined power of the bijuu down a better path than even he himself could.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 3, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Pretty self-explanatory. Naruto's extreme speed, strength, and power put him on another entirely different tier than what Hashirama is being hyped on/



They're both being compared to the RS. That's the same tier.



> Hell, he can even heal himself without seals-just like Hashirama could.



Again, something they have in common, not something that shows Naruto as superior.



> In Biju Mode, Naruto's firepower should seriously decimate any wood construct that Hashirama tries.



Hashirama's mokuton still stomped the greatest katon-user ever to exist, and that's not even touching Madara's Amaterasu, which we haven't seen yet.

Hashirama evidently had a hell of a lot of chakra, and if he can build a forest of hundreds of trees in a single jutsu and repeat it multiple times, then I wouldn't write it off as something that can just be "decimated" by bijuudama. Sure bijuudama can be used many times too, and I'm not saying that Hashirama has more chakra than Naruto, but you're blowing off Hashirama's purported and shown feats like they are nothing.



> We still just have his physical feats against Hiruzen as well. *Hashirama has high level taijutsu, but he's lacking in speed. *



Was Hashirama ever even given stats? Even if he was in the first DB, it's irrelevant.

Hashirama was switched to having unknown stats for the third DB, which means that they're changing.

You're just jumping to the conclusion that he was slow, and we have no idea whether or not he was.



> All in all, Naruto should have surpassed Hashirama now, and would surprise Madara and Kabuto knowing this.



All in all, you're taking advantage of the fact that we haven't seen Hashirama Prime in action so you can say Naruto is superior to him.

I'm not saying he isn't, but I am saying your argument is more less bunk.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> *Never*Most of them are j/k threads just like that thread about Konohamaru owning Pain and that shit thread had 5 starts.



Yeah the "joke" excuse they always use when they are cornered. I am not saying it for you but a lot of tards use that as a copout, they argue it seriously they reply to posts using fallacious logic, yet after a shitstorm and being cornered it turns out it was a joke.


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## Karman (Mar 3, 2012)

Okay OP, it's no where near that clean-cut.

It's by controlling the whole battlefield with his Mokuton that Hashirama was even able to put the beasts into the position to be suppressed and sealed. It's not like he just said "stop" and they obeyed like good pets. Also, Madara is power-wielding Mokuton right now, throwing out Jukai Koutan and Kajukai Korin. There's none of the finesse of a life-time's experience with the element. Presumably, we haven't seen good Mokuton.

What would allow Naruto to go toe-to-toe would be his Kagebushin, Sage Mode, and the new KCM. I don't believe that a full transformation is a good idea because Hashirama has wrangled many tailed beasts with his Mokuton before. There's nothing Kyuubi can do that Hashirama isn't prepared for. 

And here we have Naruto engaging an opponent with Tobi-level durability and illusions in inhospitable terrain surrounded by sleep pollen. It's also possible that Kajukai Korin might have the double effect of neutralizing Naruto's sensing abilities. Naruto senses life and emotion and the flowering forest spills malicious life all over the ground AND air.

With Naruto's sixth sense possibly nerfed, the constant need for him to subdue the environment so as not to lose the fight, and Hashirama's long established tailed beast counters it is no where near a clear cut fight.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

Its not clean out, but going by feats Naruto is clearly stronger.

If you are going by hype, then remember that Current Naruto's abilities are as unknown as Hashirama's and RS's since we havent seen an ounce of what Naruto can do with the chakra of 7 and perhaps 9 Bijuus you cant say that power up isnt significant becuase its possibly the most extreme power up ever seen in the manga.

So going by feats Naruto > Hashirama

You are going to throw hype? Fine then throw hype for Naruto too, Naruto via hype has chakra of 7 and going by the 9 tomo aura hype 9 bijuus chakra.

There is no shame in Hashirama being beaten by Naruto, he is possibly the second or third strongest character in the manga right now.


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## eyeknockout (Mar 3, 2012)

naruto's shroud energy would just strengthen and harden hashirama's wood like it did to yamato's wood.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 3, 2012)

eyeknockout said:


> naruto's shroud energy would just strengthen and *harden hashirama's wood *like it did to yamato's wood.





eyeknockout said:


> naruto's shroud energy would just strengthen and *harden hashirama's wood *like it did to yamato's wood.





eyeknockout said:


> naruto's shroud energy would just strengthen and *harden hashirama's wood *like it did to yamato's wood.


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## Rawri (Mar 3, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Its not clean out, but going by feats Naruto is clearly stronger.



How so? Hashirama defeated EMS Madara + Kyubi. What feat does Naruto have that can topple that?


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

Rawri said:


> How so? Hashirama defeated EMS Madara + Kyubi. What feat does Naruto have that can topple that?



Being as fast if not faster than Minato by sheer speed without the need of seals and teleportation. Bitchslapping 5 extremelly heavy Bijuu Damas kilometers away while blitzing, having blitz speed in his Kurama shroud as well.

And of course having a multi kilometer Bijuu Dama that overpowered 5 Bijuu Damas and that wasnt even his maximum power as he was simply aiming for having equal power as he stated.

And again Kyuubi =/= Bijuu Mode, BM its another different thing and going by feats totally shit on Kyuubi alone, it isnt as if it were surpssing though as we were told Jinchuurikified Bijuu > Bijuu alone.

I say this is clearly above of beating a no drawbacks EMS (dont come and say "oh we dont know what EMS does" because you were the one who brought EMS into the argument and so far EMS is just MS with no drawbacks to which BM Naruto would laugh at) and a raging Kyuubi.

Oh by the way Hashirama had a special tool for supressing Kyuubi's chakra it isnt as if he actually had to beat Kyuubi in a fight.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 4, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> "Minato lolpwns that n00b"
> 
> "Thoust is Sir Kabuto, i proclaim Hashirama as thee strongest Hokage....just saiyan..."



Nobody ever said either of those though.


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## Rawri (Mar 4, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Being as fast if not faster than Minato by sheer speed without the need of seals and teleportation. Bitchslapping 5 extremelly heavy Bijuu Damas kilometers away while blitzing, having blitz speed in his Kurama shroud as well.
> 
> And of course having a multi kilometer Bijuu Dama that overpowered 5 Bijuu Damas and that wasnt even his maximum power as he was simply aiming for having equal power as he stated.
> 
> ...



Those are some extremely powerful abilities no doubt. But then again so is an unbreakable genjutsu that renders you blind or creating a forest the size of a bijuu dama explosion.

I don't think arguing which ability is stronger is gonna get us anywhere anyway. The question is, what have they done with them? And that's where Hashirama shines. He has probably the greatest feat in the Narutoverse (RS aside). He defeated the arguably strongest EMS Uchiha at his prime and the Kyubi. Naruto so far, doesn't even come close.



Orochibuto said:


> Oh by the way Hashirama had a special tool for supressing Kyuubi's chakra it isnt as if he actually had to beat Kyuubi in a fight.



Doesn't matter. He defeated it with his own abilities.


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 4, 2012)

Rawri said:


> How so? Hashirama defeated EMS Madara + Kyubi. What feat does Naruto have that can topple that?



Naruto just finished manhandling 5 bijuu simultaneously, he easily deflected 5 bijuu dama like they were nothing, moving with the greatest speed we have ever witnessed in this manga outside of Minato's Hiraishin, and he managed to singlehandedly overpower 5 bijuu dama that were all merged together to form one ultimate biju dama.

In my opinion, these feats are, from a raw power standpoint, already far greater than anything Hashirama has ever done to our knowledge. We know he possessed the ability to suppress the Kyuubi's power, so rather than fight it head on, he mostly defended himself from it, avoided it, and trapped it with his Mokuton, and generally did the best he could until he had an opportunity to suppress its power. Hashirama was immensely powerful, but there's no power feat that he has that is greater than anything Naruto has done against Tobi and all these bijuu.

Also, Hashirama, unlike Naruto, was not fighting against a Rinnegan user. Madara was not a Rinnegan user back then. And Hashirama was not fighting against someone who had the power of the Six Paths. Madara did not possess Hashirama's power back then. Madara was just plain Madara with the EMS and the ability to control the Kyuubi. Tobi in Naruto's battle was controlling 5 Edo Tensei Jinchuuruki, all of which had a sharingan, a Rinnegan and a bijuu.

So, just based on impressiveness alone, Naruto is already well on his way to doing something far more impressive than Hashirama did. Oh yea, and Naruto is about to fight Gedo Mazou as well. Never forget that Tobi already has the power of the Six Paths.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

Rawri said:


> Those are some extremely powerful abilities no doubt. But then again so is an unbreakable genjutsu that renders you blind or creating a forest the size of a bijuu dama explosion.
> 
> I don't think arguing which ability is stronger is gonna get us anywhere anyway. The question is, what have they done with them? And that's where Hashirama shines. He has probably the greatest feat in the Narutoverse (RS aside). He defeated the arguably strongest EMS Uchiha at his prime and the Kyubi. Naruto so far, doesn't even come close.
> 
> ...



Naruto doesnt needs to see, he has the best sensing abilities and is basically a lantern lol.

Naruto is fighting against a Rinnegan user. Hashirama fought a fucking EMS and again possibly Kyuubi was a non factor becuase of Hashirama's tool.

Yes it was his own ability but still it was a special tool specifically for Kyuubi too cancel him. You cant cancel BM Nauto as he =/= Kyuubi. Naruto's Super Bijuu Dama is the single greatest feat seen in the manga, you cant compare. Hashirama's power was Mokuton and darkness genjutsu.

Again you want to use hype?

OK, then by hype Naruto has the chakra of possibly 9 Bijuus. We dont know how the Madara fight went, going by shown feats Naruto stomps.


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## Saru (Mar 4, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Rikudou Sennin himself made a prophecy about Naruto, pretty much implying that Naruto would become better than him, and all bijuu are convinced that he was certainly talking about Naruto. Kabuto's words? Or the Rikudou Sennin and the bijuu's words. This is too easy.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Rikudou Sennin, Naruto is going to be stronger than him. Yes, I'd say that beats Hashirama.



The future tense cripples your argument. The OP clearly states that he believes current Naruto is stronger than Hashirama, not "is going to be" or "would be" stronger than Madara.

And the flashback in question doesn't even mention Hashirama's name. It's just basic foreshadowing.

... Which is the point of a _direct_ comparison (i.e. Kabuto's statement).

I knew someone would reply with this, anyway... It's not the same. 

And it's not that easy.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

Way of taking things out of context and I am sure this was made deliberately.

Hashirama was compared to RS in that their powers were regarded as fairy tales. It was never said "Hashirama's powers are in the level of RS" or anything like that.

Hashirama is a fucking Senju, he just has the body of the sage, in fact is the perfect example of just the body bar younger son. Neither of the sons could compare with RS.

Saying Hashirama is on the level of RS would be saying younger son > RS since it was said that the power was diluted in the generations. If Hashirama was on the level of RS he could solo Narutoverse which is something RS could do and extremelly easily.


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## Rawri (Mar 4, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Naruto doesnt needs to see, he has the best sensing abilities and is basically a lantern lol.



He is a great sensor no doubt. But if he can't see a tree between him and his opponent he'll just collide against it  



Orochibuto said:


> Naruto is fighting against a Rinnegan user. Hashirama fought a fucking EMS



True. But having the Rinnegan doesn't make one stronger (not immediately at least). Tobi can't even use Rinnegan abilities on his paths. He doesn't have the practice Nagato had. Fighting a veteran Rinnegan user is without a doubt harder than an EMS Uchiha, but an unseasoned one, I have my doubts. 
And not to forget the Kyubi. Also, Naruto is not alone. He has another Jinchuriki with him. And Kakashi, and Gai.



Orochibuto said:


> You cant cancel BM Nauto as he =/= Kyuubi. Naruto's Super Bijuu Dama is the single greatest feat seen in the manga, you cant compare. Hashirama's power was Mokuton and darkness genjutsu.



But I didn't  I think BM Naruto > Kyubi. And I don't think I would call Super Bijuu Dama the greatest feat regarding jutsus. It takes time building up, takes time travelling and can be absorbed. CST seems a better jutsu overall. 



Orochibuto said:


> Again you want to use hype?
> 
> OK, then by hype Naruto has the chakra of possibly 9 Bijuus. We dont know how the Madara fight went, going by shown feats Naruto stomps.



What hype?

By shown feats he stomps? I don't know about that. Bringer of Darkness and a giant forest with polen seems pretty dangerous to me. Then again, so is a massive Bijuu Dama. Should this fight occur, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a stomp for either side.




Either way, this is just about personal opinions anyway. I think defeating a veteran EMS Uchiha and the Kyubi is a greater feat than fighting an inexperienced Rinnegan user with 3 high level shinobi helping you. You don't. Let's just leave it at that.


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## maupp (Mar 4, 2012)

people are bringing the genjutsu and wood arguments a lot here...let me just say this, the wood argument became a joke the moment we saw a tired clone handle those woods with rasengans, now imagine what a kurama bijuudama would do to those wood...hashi has nothing on naruto with his wood here..

and the genjutsu debate is funny, bringer of darkness...ok what about naruto bringing frog song, in fact frog song is far more deadly than hashi genjutsu, he can use use it even at long range, all hashi has to o is hear the song and he is paralized..

by feats alone naruto has far more fire powerthan hashi could ever hope to get...he has BM, senjutsu w/ its overpowered genjutsu, naruto is a sensor, he can feel hatred and malive, he an freaking self heal at a crazy rate..

naruto deflecting 5 bijjudamas like they were nothing is above anything hashi has shown and been hyped for, he fought 6 bijuus and effortlessly destroyed them while fighting a rinnegan user who has s/t ability and gedou mazou...nothing hashi has done come evn clone to thses feats

naruto is making tobi confuse sweet and rain, tobi is far stronger than ems madara could ever hope to be, hashi beating ems madara is nothing compared to what naruto is doing right now...heck naruto has feats of beating a rinnegan user before, noe he's rying to beat a rinnegan user with 7 bijjus and gedou mazou and s/t jutsu

people are saying kabuto compared hashi to RS, hello, naruto has been compared to RS by the freaking bijuus themselves for goodness sake, heck there is even the chance that he is the rikudou himself reborn...a statement made by kabuto who's never seen the RS and a statement made by RS "sons" who happened to have lived with him, which statement is more credible..

even by hype, naruto still take this since the bijuus have hyped him to start reaching rikudouhood, hashi has nothing in the hypes departement either, naruto still shit on him

naruto is above hashi in both feats, hypes and even status in the manga...naruto will babyshake hashi no context here

naruto for the win

peace


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## silenceofthelambs (Mar 4, 2012)

Rawri said:


> Either way, this is just about personal opinions anyway. I think defeating a veteran EMS Uchiha and the Kyubi is a greater feat than fighting an *inexperienced Rinnegan user* with 3 high level shinobi helping you. You don't. Let's just leave it at that.



*What makes you think Tobi is inexperienced in his usage of the Rinnegan, though?

On the contrary, the fact that he so casually mentioned using Human Realm's Soul Removal on Yamato indicates to me that he's familiar with the Rinnegan's abilities. As for why he isn't using them against Naruto, it's clear that he's holding back. That's going to change, however, since he realized Naruto is too dangerous to play around with any further. 

All things considered, I don't think "inexperienced" is the correct label here. Given that he worked with Madara in a partnership, it's expected that he would know how to use the Rinnegan, and use it well.*


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## Shadow050 (Mar 4, 2012)

is quite doubtful that he's surpassed hashirama, and the logic here is not good at all.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

Rawri said:


> He is a great sensor no doubt. But if he can't see a tree between him and his opponent he'll just collide against it



His mode is basically a lightbulb lol, even if he cant see it isnt necessary when you have a multi kilometer attack.



Rawri said:


> True. But having the Rinnegan doesn't make one stronger (not immediately at least). Tobi can't even use Rinnegan abilities on his paths. He doesn't have the practice Nagato had. Fighting a veteran Rinnegan user is without a doubt harder than an EMS Uchiha, but an unseasoned one, I have my doubts.
> And not to forget the Kyubi. Also, Naruto is not alone. He has another Jinchuriki with him. And Kakashi, and Gai.



There is zero evidence to say Tobi isnt experienced or doesnt know to use Rinnegan in a competent matter this is just and assumption. And again we dont know how the Kyuubi factorized in the fight however we do know Hashirama had special powers to nullify wild bijuus.




Rawri said:


> But I didn't  I think BM Naruto > Kyubi. And I don't think I would call Super Bijuu Dama the greatest feat regarding jutsus. It takes time building up, takes time travelling and can be absorbed. CST seems a better jutsu overall.



Takes time? The speed was calced as instantaneous, considering that the Bijuus had already unleashed their Bijuu Dama where Naruto was just charging his dama yet it was enough to launch it before it hit and it hit the bijuu damas that were already being launched in the middle distance betweem them. If you doubt me I can show you the panels which prove it.

It is to note said Bijuu Dama was with the intent to just cancel the other dama, so possibly this wasnt even his maximum Bijuu Dama.




Rawri said:


> What hype?
> 
> By shown feats he stomps? I don't know about that. Bringer of Darkness and a giant forest with polen seems pretty dangerous to me. Then again, so is a massive Bijuu Dama. Should this fight occur, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a stomp for either side.



I grant sayong "stomps" was an exaggeration but its clear showing by feats he win, simply Hashirama doesnt have the speed feats and raw power to keep with the multi kilometer Bijuu dama or with a Naruto that can spam RM and SM clones nonstop basically fighting an infinite army. Considering Hashirama's signature jutsu was beaten by a clone that had "a tiny part (said by Kyuubi)" of the chakra Naruto is now wielding.





Rawri said:


> Either way, this is just about personal opinions anyway. I think defeating a veteran EMS Uchiha and the Kyubi is a greater feat than fighting an inexperienced Rinnegan user with 3 high level shinobi helping you. You don't. Let's just leave it at that.



Yeah they helped a lot KCM Naruto, but Naruto in his BM showing soloed and raped 5 Bijuus. All the showings of chapter 572 was done by himself with Bee just pushing one.

Do you think Hashirama would survive 5 Bijuu Damas? Do you think Hashirama would RAPE (becuase Naruto did so) 5 Bijuus without Bijuu controlling powers? Do you think he is as fast as Minato?


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## Oga Tatsumi (Mar 4, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Or perhaps KCM = EMS Sasuke and thus Sasuke will get Rinnegan for current Naruto.



maybe the older son eyes but the rinnegan will stomp BM Naruto


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 4, 2012)

Astrαl said:


> The future tense cripples your argument. The OP clearly states that he believes current Naruto is stronger than Hashirama, not "is going to be" or "would be" stronger than Madara.
> 
> And the flashback in question doesn't even mention Hashirama's name. It's just basic foreshadowing.
> 
> ...



Does it really cripple my argument? I was just speaking that way for that specific post. According to the Rikudou Sennin's prophecy, he hoped that the bijuu would all learn what true power was by the time they were united as one. I firmly believe it has already happened. The bijuu have all witnessed and learned firsthand what true power is. It's Naruto. He isn't just *yet another *strong shinobi like all the other strong shinobi that have come and gone over the years. He's something entirely different from any who came before him. He possesses an incredibly mysterious power to make almost anyone, and I do mean anyone, want to believe with all their heart that he can, and will, accomplish anything, no matter how impossible or incomprehensible it might seem.

And it starts with the fact that he believes in himself so damn much. That may sound stupid or corny, but the degree to which Naruto believes in himself is a power in itself. It always has been since the start of the manga. That belief ends up being the power to not only change others as well as destiny, but it will ultimately end up growing into a power that brings a completely unprecedented change to the world of shinobi. Fear not, however, this won't be accomplished through a series of sappy emotional moments, Naruto's power and level of badass in combat will grow proportionately to accommodate all of this. Exciting things to look forward to, people.


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## maupp (Mar 4, 2012)

it's pretty clear that naruto is the stronger shinobi between the 2...current hashi hypes still dnt make him an naruto's current level and naruto is for another upgrade...sorry hashi fans, go argue with ems madara where u can really find someone hashi can be compared to, unfortunatly for u naruto isnt on mere hashi level anymore, the kid is trying to ascend in rikudouhood..

from now on people should be bringing the likes of hahsi or ems madara to compare to naruto with, soon only the rikudou will be someone we will be comparing to naruto or people who are tryig to achieve the same power as rikudou even if it's not quite there like hashidara and tobi...anyone below these 2 i mentioned shouldnt be compared to current naruto os naruto will just babyshake and stomp..


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## alchemy1234 (Mar 4, 2012)

Well, hype wise hashirama >>> naruto. feat wise and using battledome logic, naruto is stronger. There is not enough information to draw any conclusions at this point. So thread is basically premature. ATM tobi, isn't too threatened by naruto though, I'm sure deep down inside he may be nervous, but not to the point where it would be obvious. This fact actually would undermine naruto's current level of strength.

I'm actually not even sure why op bothered making this thread, as anything he/she says is basically an assumption. We hardly have any knowledge about what hashirama could do.

I do know one thing, there is absolutely no way naruto is stronger than the madara we're seeing right now, even if you remove madaras immortality, madara would win.


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## Tony Lou (Mar 4, 2012)

I understand your point, but Kabuto has watched all battles of this war closely. 

If he still says there's no one on Hashirama's level nowadays, it's probably true.


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## Khazzar (Mar 4, 2012)

Right now, one on one,Naruto is the strongest in the manga. ( 'xcept RS )


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

People if you use hype for Hashirama as oppossed to what it should be used and the only valid thing (feats) then its perfectly fine to use hype for Naruto, then based on hype Naruto has the chakra of 7 and possibly 9 Bijuus.

See what I did? Using hype never goes well and if you are going to do so for one character you have to do for the other. Hype Hashirama's power is as unknown as current hype Naruto's power.



Luiz said:


> I understand your point, but Kabuto has watched all battles of this war closely.
> 
> If he still says there's no one on Hashirama's level nowadays, it's probably true.



Except the Tobi fight, Kabuto doesnt know everything and this come from a Kabuto fan.


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## tnorbo (Mar 4, 2012)

I don't think people understand the scale of shodai's jutsu. especialy those saying the naruto who fought pain surpassed him.

even the largest jutsu in the pain fight were barely over a kilometer including the chibuka tensei.

did you guys see the flower jutsu that madara casually did last chapter. yeah it was closer to *5*. I may not know how hashirama stacks up to current naruto. but he he wouldn't even notice the difference between sm naruto and konohamaru


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## Zeit (Mar 4, 2012)

Assuming the hype surrounding Hashirama is anywhere near accurate Naruto hasn't surpassed him but is probably on the same tier albeit slightly lower due to his current time-limit issues.


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2012)

Naruto should have regeneration similar to Hashirama's due to Kurama's chakra and he has Jutsu that are on the scale of Hashirama's in BM like the giant Bijuu Dama and what not. His physical capabilities we can't really compare to Hashirama since we haven't seen Hashirama's yet, however I wouldn't be shocked if they are better than Hashirama's in BM. However Hashirama has other things like Bijuu Control, greater experience, greater intelligence, much higher skill in Genjutsu, etc... 

Most likely Naruto is on par with Hashirama in BM, but Naruto as of now can only hold BM for 5min so overall he's still inferior to Hashirama, who has no such time constraints on his power.


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## jdbzkh (Mar 4, 2012)

Rawri said:


> How so? Hashirama defeated EMS Madara + Kyubi. What feat does Naruto have that can topple that?



Naruto just defeated 6 biju and was compared to the Rikudou Senin. Not to mention he's been fighting in every single battlefield being the main reason why the alliance is now capable of heading out towards him. Naruto changed the tide of war defeating the Zetsu's along with the Edo's. I mean damn do we really need some one to sit there and say Naruto's power is legendary people just can't believe its real? We've been witnessing it since the start of this war and the scary part is Naruto's still learning how to control it. We might never get to see a prime Naruto, we will just get to see one about to hit his stride.


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## Nagato Sennin (Mar 4, 2012)

Funny how people say Tobi wasn't flinched. This guy thought he was sweating lol

Also Naruto already stopped Mokuton


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Mar 4, 2012)

Umm....yeah, I think Naruto has the edge on Hashirama.

Shodai certainly is impressive, but I think Naruto can deal quite nicely.

I think Hashirama controlling the Kyubi is highly unlikely. There would be little point in creating a jinchuriki that could be controlled. The fact that it's physically inside someone else would seem to override Mokuton's control. It is interesting though that in Kyubi Chakra Mode, the chakra seems to amplify Mokuton rather than tear through it. A truly crazy idea would be that Naruto would override Hashirama's control of his own wood .

Even if Hashirama can suppress the Kyubi with Mokuton, Naruto can fall back to Sage Mode, which if you recall is no slouch. Have you ever seen what a tornado does to trees? Futon: Rasenshuriken vs Mokuton: Jukai Koutan.



lazer said:


> Hashirama's mokuton i.e. attacking forest and sleep powder would absolutely rape naruto.


Naruto with a  little of Kurama's chakra put a stop to Madara even deploying the wood. If he destroys the wood before it gets going then there will be little sleeping going on.

Further in full Biju Mode, Naruto is likely to be shielded from the effects of the pollen as he's inside Kurama's head. And I doubt the Kyubi is going to sleep.


Turrin said:


> Naruto should have regeneration similar to Hashirama's due to Kurama's chakra and he has Jutsu that are on the scale of Hashirama's in BM like the giant Bijuu Dama and what not. His physical capabilities we can't really compare to Hashirama since we haven't seen Hashirama's yet, however I wouldn't be shocked if they are better than Hashirama's in BM. However Hashirama has other things like Bijuu Control, greater experience, greater intelligence, much higher skill in Genjutsu, etc...
> 
> Most likely Naruto is on par with Hashirama in BM, but Naruto as of now can only hold BM for 5min so overall he's still inferior to Hashirama, who has no such time constraints on his power.



Logically.

And Kurama didn't seem concerned about how well they would be able to maintain the transformation with practice. In the end this was a combat field test.


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## αce (Mar 4, 2012)

> I know it might sound strange Senjuclan, but if you read some people's posts, they literally say that Hashirama would annihilate Naruto, like it wouldn't even be close. For them to say such a thing at this point in the manga, to me, is an indication that they will always say this, even when the manga officially ends.



Ignore those people


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## jacamo (Mar 4, 2012)

if people are ok with Naruto being on Hashirama's level 

then those same people better be ok with Sasuke being on Hashirama's level


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## Zeit (Mar 4, 2012)

jacamo said:


> if people are ok with Naruto being on Hashirama's level
> 
> then those same people better be ok with Sasuke being on Hashirama's level



That will depend entirely on where Sauce is right now in terms of ability, unless EMS has given him a major power-boost I don't see him being at that tier yet. The closest comparison for Sasuke will be EMS Madara.


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## Kai (Mar 4, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Why do I get the feeling that this is a pre-emptive, butthurt, damage control thread?
> The same people who say we shouldn't judge Hashirama's power by hype, are the exact same people to dismiss his superiority over their favourite characters by comparing his hype to their feats.


You realize characters in this manga have those exact same traits right?




			
				♠Ace♠ said:
			
		

> Tobi respected Hashirama for his power, yet he still looks at Naruto like an insignificant naive child who doesn't even have enough fire power to make him flinch.


Tobi respects/likes/faps Hashirama more than he does Naruto. Level of concern or admiration doesn't equate to power levels.


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## Klue (Mar 4, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Certainly plausible, but I'm not seeing the point of such a thread in the TELEGRAMS.
> 
> Shodai's limited showcasing on panel makes it awfully hard to argue either direction, thus such a discussion is pointless.
> 
> ...



Completely agree.


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## AoshiKun (Mar 4, 2012)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> Umm....yeah, I think Naruto has the edge on Hashirama.
> 
> Shodai certainly is impressive, but I think Naruto can deal quite nicely.
> 
> ...


 says hi.


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## Whirlpool (Mar 4, 2012)

Dim Mak said:


> What about Tsunade?



That's obviously for next chapter where she whips out her mountain busting mokuton


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## Whirlpool (Mar 4, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Nobody ever said either of those though.



I'm pretty sure i remember a manga panel where Kabuto spoke in ye olde english and Kakashi spoke in '1337'


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## jacamo (Mar 4, 2012)

ZeitgeistGlee said:


> That will depend entirely on where Sauce is right now in terms of ability, unless EMS has given him a major power-boost I don't see him being at that tier yet. The closest comparison for Sasuke will be EMS Madara.



well... whether people think Naruto has surpassed Hashirama at this moment, Sasuke is at the same level as Kishi said Naruto and Sasuke progress as a pair

so by the end of this manga, its a foregone conclusion that both Naruto and Sasuke will have surpassed the likes of Hsahirama and Madara


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## Senjuclan (Mar 4, 2012)

jacamo said:


> well... whether people think Naruto has surpassed Hashirama at this moment, Sasuke is at the same level as Kishi said Naruto and Sasuke progress as a pair
> 
> so by the end of this manga, its a foregone conclusion that both Naruto and Sasuke will have surpassed the likes of Hsahirama and Madara



Sauce with EMS alone can't be stronger than Madara with EMS and kyuubi. So, if Sauce is weaker than Madara, and hence shodai, how the hell can he be equal to Naruto who is stronger than shodai? Makes no sense. Both Naruto and Sauce should be slightly weaker than shodai for the equality between Sasuke and Naruto to hold


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 4, 2012)

Orochimaru held his power SM Naruto was stronger than Harishima


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## MangaR (Mar 4, 2012)

Is it even a question ? Madara that Shodai fought so many time was defeated in about 30 seconds in 2 acts of play called "Rasenshurikened". 
Yes Naruto wasn't alone but he wasn't at his best too, Sage mode only, it was clone who had fought previously and waste alot of chakra, made clones too. Naruto at full power(RM not BM) would rape. 
Naruto's exhausted clone countered Shodai's wood without RM. You don't even need to counter it realy you can run on it all the way to Mokuton user.
Self healing won't help, he surely can't regenerate as fast as Naruto showed in 1st part or he wouldn't be so bloody at the end of the fight. But that doesn't matter anyway because Rasenshuriken can stop it. You saw "Zetsu and little rasenshuriken" show ? Yeah so did i.

And now you're asking if Current Naruto could do the job ? No, he won't.....he'll send a clone to do the job while drinking some tea with Hinata.


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## Whirlpool (Mar 4, 2012)

Well EMS Madara and Hashirama were equally matched and SM Naruto alongside Gaara would have killed Madara easily if he wasn't an edo with rinnegan so...

 This is hard


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## shintebukuro (Mar 4, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> Well EMS Madara and Hashirama were equally matched and *SM Naruto alongside Gaara would have killed Madara easily* if he wasn't an edo with rinnegan so...
> 
> This is hard



This post really illuminates why the bolded I've seen some people argue really needs to be shed because of how ass-backwards it is.

Along with those above who claim SM Naruto is > Hashirama...you guys need to come get your towels and dry off from being in The Nile River.


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## Klue (Mar 4, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> Well EMS Madara and Hashirama were equally matched and SM Naruto alongside Gaara would have killed Madara easily if he wasn't an edo with rinnegan so...
> 
> This is hard



No matter how strong someone is, no one is completely invincible - totally untouchable. This isn't that type of manga.

Shit happens.


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## αce (Mar 4, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> Well EMS Madara and Hashirama were equally matched and SM Naruto alongside Gaara would have killed Madara easily if he wasn't an edo with rinnegan so...
> 
> This is hard



If he was using the full capability of his EMS at that particular moment, you may have been able to make this comment without it being laughed off.
At that moment in the manga, he was used nothing but base Uchiha abilities, with a Susano-o.

And the Susano-o was overcome by the combination of two very rare unique jutsu's, in Oonoki's ability and Gaara's sand. And given the geographical advantage that Gaara had, as well as the numbers, at the very least they should have been able to do what they did.

Madara was in such an unfavourable position it's almost hilarious. The chances that all those elements would come together to overcome something Gaara had the slightest chance to witness earlier (Sasuke's Susano-o), makes it more believable that EMS Madara would stomp all of them otherwise.


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## jacamo (Mar 4, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Sauce with EMS alone can't be stronger than Madara with EMS and kyuubi. So, if Sauce is weaker than Madara, and hence shodai, how the hell can he be equal to Naruto who is stronger than shodai? Makes no sense. Both Naruto and Sauce should be slightly weaker than shodai for the equality between Sasuke and Naruto to hold



first of all.... you cant include the Kyubi in the Sasuke-Madara comparison

second of all.... Naruto is not stronger than Hashirama at this moment, i dont know what makes you think that... but if he is then so is Sasuke because Kishi said they always grow as a pair, you cant have it both ways


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## Senjuclan (Mar 4, 2012)

jacamo said:


> first of all.... you cant include the Kyubi in the Sasuke-Madara comparison
> 
> second of all.... Naruto is not stronger than Hashirama at this moment, i dont know what makes you think that... but if he is then so is Sasuke because Kishi said they always grow as a pair, you cant have it both ways



Why can't I? Kyuubi was a summon of Madara. So, his power is imputed to Madara. I don't think naruto is stronger than Hashirama, I was merely demonstrating the absurdity of claiming that he is stronger than Hashirama but equal to Sasuke


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## lazer (Mar 4, 2012)

Amat?rasu’s Son said:


> Naruto with a  little of Kurama's chakra put a *stop *to Madara even deploying the wood.



To say naruto stopped the jutsu is incorrect. It was madara who stopped jukai koutan, not naruto. Madara is not accustomed to jukai koutan and he states this after naruto countered jukai koutan

The jukai koutan that madara used is not mastered because mokuton regenerates at an alarming rate because the users chakra is converted into a source of life. If it was hashirama using jukai koutan, then he would be able to pump out much more trees than madara did and therefore outlasting naruto's burst of kurama chakra.

This means it wasn't naruto that stopped jukai koutan. It was madara's lack of mastery over jukai koutan that stopped jukai koutan. 



Amat?rasu’s Son said:


> If he destroys the wood before it gets going then there will be little sleeping going on.



Your confusing Jukai Koutan with Kourin Kajukai which are both very different mokuton techiques. 

Jukai Koutan is the same technique the edo hashirama did to ensnare hiruzen. Notice how the trees gradually entangled hiruzen and notice the scale of the jutsu. Jukai Koutan lacks scale and speed when compared to Kourin Kajukai. That's why naruto was barely able to counter in time.

Kourin Kajukai There is no way in hell naruto could destroy an "instantly appearing forest" before it get's going. The scale and speed of Kourin Kajukai dwarfs Jukai Koutan in every way.

The pollen has been shown to render kage level opponents unconscious but it may also have other side effects that may surface later on such as poison or paralysis.



Amat?rasu’s Son said:


> Further in full Biju Mode, Naruto is likely to be shielded from the effects of the pollen as he's inside Kurama's head. And I doubt the Kyubi is going to sleep.



Unless naruto is unable to breath while in bm naruto, his ass is going beddy bye. Bijuu's being susceptible to the pollen makes hashirama's possession of multiple bijuu's understandable.


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## Whirlpool (Mar 4, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> This post really illuminates why the bolded I've seen some people argue really needs to be shed because of how ass-backwards it is.
> 
> Along with those above who claim SM Naruto is > Hashirama...you guys need to come get your towels and dry off from being in The Nile River.



I never said SM> Hashirama, i'm just saying that if that was the madara that fought Hashirama he'd be dead. He needed rinnegan to deflect it.


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## Missing_Nin (Mar 4, 2012)

naruto-13 kages
hashirama-5 kages


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## Shadow050 (Mar 4, 2012)

this is retarded... how about we acknowledge the fact that naruto is the fucking MC for a moment, who's fighting bad guys.

and that Hashirama was a good guy and a legend, but in story standards, a MC > Legend.

of course naruto may appear to be superior to a person who's supposed to be the equal of a legend... there must be some kind of "epic" drama, right?

if naruto didn't have his MC plot shield, shit would be very different in a lot of cases.

if there was a fight between hashirama and naruto, it'd be a different _kind_ of fight from what we typically see in the manga.

and if it wasn't the case that naruto was the MC, he'd have no chance against hashirama.

we already know that mokuton can effect bijuu powers - it's why yamato was paired with naruto in kakahsi's absence.

if hashirama's mokuton can nullify kyuubi powers, there's almost no reason for this claim or conversation, and that nullification is a very real possibility.

and SM naruto wouldn't be defeating Shodai 

base mode better not even be a thought...


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Why can't I? Kyuubi was a summon of Madara. So, his power is imputed to Madara. I don't think naruto is stronger than Hashirama, I was merely demonstrating the absurdity of claiming that he is stronger than Hashirama but equal to Sasuke



Because Hashirama had a special tool to counter Kyuubi, now of course this doesnt mean it doesnt count as Hashirama's power claiming that would be like the retarded haters that claim edo tensei isnt part of Kabuto's power.

What it is to note is that during that fight Hashirama had a situtational advantadge, you make it seem like if Hashiramam had to beat head on the full Kyuubi and Madara at the same time alone.

We dont know how the fight went you just assume Hashirama did fought them head on when it is known that controlling the Kyuubi via sharingan can only be done a short period of time as well that it is known that Hashirama had anti Bijuu special counters.

I think it should be clear Naruto > Hashirama considering that a CLONE using a TINY BIT of the  chakra destroyed Hashirama's signature jutsu and Naruto has now way much more power.

Senjuclan I am not an unreasonable Naruto fan I have been stated countless times I really dont care about his tier because we all know at the end he will be at RS level.

The only argument I have heard for Hashirama being stronger than Naruto is the ZERO argument "Sasuke has to be equal to Naruto, Sasuke it as EMS Madara level thus Hashirama > Naruto" which honestly is a zero and pathetic argument and I know you can do better than that.

Nothing force Sasuke to be equal to Naruto immediatly at all times, there has been times where Naruto has > Sasuke and Sasuke > Naruto and some of those werent just sightly stronger some were fucking big ridiculous gaps. You assume Sasuke will fight Naruto at EMS and may get Rinnegan and even other power ups. The Sasuke Naruto equality only has to apply on their fight where one is sightly stronger than the other it has never been that they have at all times to be equal. You cant mount an entire argument on Hashirama having to be superior to Naruto on the only grounds of Sasuke's power level this isnt even an argument at all.


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## Mister (Mar 4, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> Well EMS Madara and Hashirama were equally matched and SM Naruto alongside Gaara would have killed Madara easily if he wasn't an edo with rinnegan so...
> 
> This is hard



Is it more practical to use a Sharingan power which drains chakra or the Rinnegan's Preta Realm which in turn gives you a generous volume of chakra?


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## Senjuclan (Mar 4, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Because Hashirama had a special tool to counter Kyuubi, now of course this doesnt mean it doesnt count as Hashirama's power claiming that would be like the retarded haters that claim edo tensei isnt part of Kabuto's power.
> 
> What it is to note is that during that fight Hashirama had a situtational advantadge, you make it seem like if Hashiramam had to beat head on the full Kyuubi and Madara at the same time alone.
> 
> We dont know how the fight went you just assume Hashirama did fought them head on when it is known that controlling the Kyuubi via sharingan can only be done a short period of time as well that it is known that Hashirama had anti Bijuu special counters.



Minato said that Madara could only keep the kyuubi summoned for a short amount of time. This implies that shodai did not stop his control. During that time that Madara had not lost control yet, who do you think shodai was fighting if not Madara AND kyuubi

Furthermore, my point is not that shodai beat Madara and kyuubi. My point is that shodai was considered stronger than Madara even though the kyuubi was part of his arsenal. Being stronger than another ninja is not determined by the outcome of a fight. 



Orochibuto said:


> I think it should be clear Naruto > Hashirama considering that a CLONE using a TINY BIT of the  chakra destroyed Hashirama's signature jutsu and Naruto has now way much more power.



I think it should clear that Hashirama > Naruto considering that Hashirama has the power to control the kyuubi itself and Hashirama had way much more power. Do you see what I did there?



Orochibuto said:


> Senjuclan I am not an unreasonable Naruto fan I have been stated countless times I really dont care about his tier because we all know at the end he will be at RS level.
> 
> The only argument I have heard for Hashirama being stronger than Naruto is the ZERO argument "Sasuke has to be equal to Naruto, Sasuke it as EMS Madara level thus Hashirama > Naruto" which honestly is a zero and pathetic argument and I know you can do better than that.
> 
> Nothing force Sasuke to be equal to Naruto immediatly at all times, there has been times where Naruto has > Sasuke and Sasuke > Naruto and some of those werent just sightly stronger some were fucking big ridiculous gaps. You assume Sasuke will fight Naruto at EMS and may get Rinnegan and even other power ups. The Sasuke Naruto equality only has to apply on their fight where one is sightly stronger than the other it has never been that they have at all times to be equal. You cant mount an entire argument on Hashirama having to be superior to Naruto on the only grounds of Sasuke's power level this isnt even an argument at all.



The Sasuke equal to Naruto is based on Kishi's comments. Powerscaling is the only way to compare Naruto and Hashirama. Without as many feats for Hashirama as we have for Naruto, Naruto APPEARS stronger. Look at Yagura. A perfect jinchiruki. We don't have many feats from him and he looks weaker than Gaara, an ex jinchiruki with a lower tailed beast. 

So, if Naruto is truly superior to shodai, he should be able to stomp Sasuke who is weaker than Madara


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## Summers (Mar 4, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> This post really illuminates why the bolded I've seen some people argue really needs to be shed because of how ass-backwards it is.
> 
> Along with those above who claim SM Naruto is > Hashirama...you guys need to *come get your towels and dry off from being in The Nile River.*



What does that even mean?


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## hellohi (Mar 4, 2012)

I don't think he surpassed Hashirama.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Minato said that Madara could only keep the kyuubi summoned for a short amount of time. This implies that shodai did not stop his control. During that time that Madara had not lost control yet, who do you think shodai was fighting if not Madara AND kyuubi
> 
> Furthermore, my point is not that shodai beat Madara and kyuubi. My point is that shodai was considered stronger than Madara even though the kyuubi was part of his arsenal. Being stronger than another ninja is not determined by the outcome of a fight.



If the Shinobi user everything it had during that fight and it still lose yes it is determined by the outcome of the fight Hashirama isnt more powerful than Kyuubi+Madara however he can beat them becuase he has the tools to nullify one of them and is superiro to EMS Madara. And it isnt like if Shodai stomped Madara, the win was even.




Senjuclan said:


> I think it should clear that Hashirama > Naruto considering that Hashirama has the power to control the kyuubi itself and Hashirama had way much more power. Do you see what I did there?



Controlling Kyuubi =/= being a perfected jinchuuriki being a perfected jinchuuriki is on another level than simply controlling that beast, so I fail tto see how Hashirama ha way much more power than BM Naruto.





Senjuclan said:


> The Sasuke equal to Naruto is based on Kishi's comments. Powerscaling is the only way to compare Naruto and Hashirama. Without as many feats for Hashirama as we have for Naruto, Naruto APPEARS stronger. Look at Yagura. A perfect jinchiruki. We don't have many feats from him and he looks weaker than Gaara, an ex jinchiruki with a lower tailed beast.



This doesnt mean they have to be equal ever at all times and this has been proven in the manga.



Senjuclan said:


> So, if Naruto is truly superior to shodai, he should be able to stomp Sasuke who is weaker than Madara



First of all Sasuke has been said to have more potential EMS Sasuke should if not now in the future > EMS Madara.

Secondly even if BM Naruto could stomp EMS, yes in BM so what?

There has never been said they have to be equal always at all times. Early part 2 Sasuke stomped Naruto, MS Sasuke would have stomped pre senjutsu Naruto considering he was restricted to base, SM Naruto would have stomped a MS Sasuke that was raped by Bee. Your point?

There have been repeatedly times momments where the power level of one far greatly outclassed the other, this could very well be one of those momments.

Furthermore current Naruto's arsenal is just as unknown as Hashirama's, current Naruto received power from 7 Bijuus and maybe all 9 if the 9 tomoe aura was an indication.

I may give it to you on 5 minutes limited BM Naruto. But do you serioulsy think Hashirama > a guy witht he power of 7 and possibly 9 Bijuus?

Do you honestly believe Mokuton and EMS are on the level of a guy that has the power of maybe 9 Bijuus?

See how using hype is not a good idea? If we use hype for Hashirama "OMG but he > Madara+Kyuubi despite we have no fucking idea how!" instead of using shown on panel feats that is what you use in the battledome and formal debate (and maybe Madara's Mokuton by proxy) then so we can use current Naruto's hype which may very well be Juubi level as he received chakra from the other Bijuus and was directly compared to RS by the Bijuus and RS himself.

Do you think Hashirama is on the level of Juubi?


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## Senjuclan (Mar 4, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> If the Shinobi user everything it had during that fight and it still lose yes it is determined by the outcome of the fight Hashirama isnt more powerful than Kyuubi+Madara however he can beat them becuase he has the tools to nullify one of them and is superiro to EMS Madara. And it isnt like if Shodai stomped Madara, the win was even.



Again, you fail to address the point. Shodai did not take possession of the kyuubi until Madara himself lost it. So, he did fight the kyuubi AND Madara. 




Orochibuto said:


> Controlling Kyuubi =/= being a perfected jinchuuriki being a perfected jinchuuriki is on another level than simply controlling that beast, so I fail tto see how Hashirama ha way much more power than BM Naruto.



I was showing you how absurd your argument was. You say Naruto can counter Hashirama signature jutsu, therefore he is stronger. I turned around and said Hashirama can counter Naruto's signature jutsu. 




Orochibuto said:


> This doesnt mean they have to be equal ever at all times and this has been proven in the manga.



I think naruto is actually stronger but Sasuke is just slightly weaker.



Orochibuto said:


> First of all Sasuke has been said to have more potential EMS Sasuke should if not now in the future > EMS Madara.



Sasuke has been said to have more potential than Itachi. Hardly relevant in comparing him to Madara



Orochibuto said:


> Secondly even if BM Naruto could stomp EMS, yes in BM so what?
> 
> There has never been said they have to be equal always at all times. Early part 2 Sasuke stomped Naruto, MS Sasuke would have stomped pre senjutsu Naruto considering he was restricted to base, SM Naruto would have stomped a MS Sasuke that was raped by Bee. Your point?
> 
> There have been repeatedly times momments where the power level of one far greatly outclassed the other, this could very well be one of those momments.



Then, let's wait and see Sasuke's EMS before we continue this conversation



Orochibuto said:


> Furthermore current Naruto's arsenal is just as unknown as Hashirama's, current Naruto received power from 7 Bijuus and maybe all 9 if the 9 tomoe aura was an indication.



Please. We have not seen the extent of Hashirama's medical ninjutsu, the extent of his genjutsu nor the extent of his bijuu control. We have seen much more from Naruto. We are not comparing shodai to future Naruto but present Naruto. Present Naruto has not yet benefited from the other bijuu chakra



Orochibuto said:


> I may give it to you on 5 minutes limited BM Naruto. But do you serioulsy think Hashirama > a guy witht he power of 7 and possibly 9 Bijuus?



Having chakra from the bijuu does not mean shit until you use said chakra. So far, Naruto has not used the other bijuu chakra. You seem to forget that shodai had several bijuu too. Possibly 8 of them.



Orochibuto said:


> Do you honestly believe Mokuton and EMS are on the level of a guy that has the power of maybe 9 Bijuus?



Since such a guy does not exist, I don't have to think about it. 



Orochibuto said:


> See how using hype is not a good idea? If we use hype for Hashirama "OMG but he > Madara+Kyuubi despite we have no fucking idea how!" instead of using shown on panel feats that is what you use in the battledome and formal debate (and maybe Madara's Mokuton by proxy) then so we can use current Naruto's hype which may very well be Juubi level as he received chakra from the other Bijuus and was directly compared to RS by the Bijuus and RS himself.



Defeating Madara + kyuubi is not hype but off-panel feat. Naruto received small portions of chakra from the other bijuu. An insignificant amount.He has done nothing to use said chakra. Naruto always had the kyuubi but at some point, even Kiba could give him a fight. Having chakra is one thing, learning to use it is another. When Naruto uses the chakra from those bijuu, I will reconsider



Orochibuto said:


> Do you think Hashirama is on the level of Juubi?



Such a question is silly. I don't think Hashirama is on the level of juubi, RS or even Kabuto


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 4, 2012)

Shodai himself could deal with the power of a bijuu, considering he managed to capture all of them.

Naruto's going to have to show more to convince me he's stronger than Shodai, because the bijuu cloak alone isn't going to cut it.


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## joshhookway (Mar 4, 2012)

Flowers plus trees=dead naruto


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## jacamo (Mar 4, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Why can't I? Kyuubi was a summon of Madara. So, his power is imputed to Madara. I don't think naruto is stronger than Hashirama, I was merely demonstrating the absurdity of claiming that he is stronger than Hashirama but equal to Sasuke



lolwut? because Kyubi makes Sasuke-Madara an unfair comparison... i shouldnt have had to explain that to you

its not an absurdity if Kishi, the author himself, stated it as FACT that Sasuke and Naruto progress as a pair... that means they are always equal or very close in terms strength, so they are either both stronger or weaker than Hashirama


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Again, you fail to address the point. Shodai did not take possession of the kyuubi until Madara himself lost it. So, he did fight the kyuubi AND Madara.



Which is irrelevant becuase we dont know how the fuck the fight went, Hashirama had nullifying Bijuu abilities, we dont know if he made the Kyuubi a non factor which is very possible. We know he fought EMS Madara but we dont know how Kyuubi factorized. I dont see how Hashirama can > Naruto going by feats the "he fought Kyuubi and Madara" is a non quantifiable feat and you know it very well becuase we dont know how the Kyuubi factorized.





Senjuclan said:


> I was showing you how absurd your argument was. You say Naruto can counter Hashirama signature jutsu, therefore he is stronger. I turned around and said Hashirama can counter Naruto's signature jutsu.



So now Hashirama can control perfected jinchuurikies? As I know he has never shown or demonstrated to be able to control a Bijuu in a perfected jinchuuriki which is entirely different from the Bijuu alone. And we arent just going to assume he can, right?

It is also to note Madara couldnt do it despite having Hashirama's powers PLUS his own powers plus Rinnegan.




Senjuclan said:


> I think naruto is actually stronger but Sasuke is just slightly weaker.



Its a possibility



Senjuclan said:


> Sasuke has been said to have more potential than Itachi. Hardly relevant in comparing him to Madara



So basically you think that Sasuke's EMS abilities will be below Madara's?



Senjuclan said:


> Then, let's wait and see Sasuke's EMS before we continue this conversation



Then, let's wait to see more feats to start Hashirama > Naruto or Naruto > Hashirama threads, which has been all my point. I personally think there are no feats to judge who is weaker or stronger unless you want to use hype which become a wankery contest. I have only responded to posts clamining Hashirama > Naruto, personally? I think its irrelevant to debate it there are not enough feats for Hashirama to judge him neither we have ANY feats from current Naruto that received a multi Bijuu power up.

If you can admit there are no feats for the debare I will agree so too, but if you keep saying that Hashirama > Naruto, then I will have to demonstrate otherwise by using the little feats we have for both. Please do note feats as in you know feats saying "OMG he > Madara+Kyuubi" is not a feat not a quanitifiable one since it require us to judge an unknown power (EMS) and to judge also how the Kyuubi factorized in a fight where a man has Bijuu controlling abilities. So far the only feats Hashirama has are the Hiruzen fight and by proxy if you wish Madara's mokuton feats. Everything else is hype and if you want to accept hype for Hashirama you must have to do the same for Naruto.



Senjuclan said:


> Please. We have not seen the extent of Hashirama's medical ninjutsu, the extent of his genjutsu nor the extent of his bijuu control. We have seen much more from Naruto. We are not comparing shodai to future Naruto but present Naruto. Present Naruto has not yet benefited from the other bijuu chakra/QUOTE]
> 
> My point stand current Naruto is as unknown as Hashirama, no this is not future Naruto is current Naruto as you know Naruto currently as in the present chronology of the manga received chakra from at least 7 (and possibly 9) Bijuus this is current Naruto, you know the one that in base the sensor sensed full Kyuubi chakra levels and "something else" the one that Tobi saw a 9 tomoe aura and was extremelly confident on his ability despite being at base.
> 
> ...


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## Orochibuto (Mar 4, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lolwut? because Kyubi makes Sasuke-Madara an unfair comparison... i shouldnt have had to explain that to you
> 
> its not an absurdity if Kishi, the author himself, stated it as FACT that Sasuke and Naruto progress as a pair... that means they are always equal or very close in terms strength, so they are either both stronger or weaker than Hashirama



There have been instances in the manga where Sasuke and Naruto would rape each other, being equal doesnt mean they have to be equal always at all times but that they will be equal when they fight with one of them being sightly superior and that they will be reaching each other power levels and pushing themselves.


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## AbsentRickey (Mar 4, 2012)

I really don't want to join this argument but are people really saying SM Naruto>Hashirama-_-


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## narutoish (Mar 5, 2012)

i don't even know if there is a comparison. we have hashirama who was able to control/tame the ninetails and various other bijus (that is impressive) and naruto who is just  being helped by one of the several bijus that hashirama had under his control. even if u can somehow prove that current naruto is stronger then 100% kurama, i just don't see how naruto still surpasses hashirama. naruto is just being helped by a biju while hashirama controlled several of them. i just fail to see how naruto has even done anything on his own to surpass the 1st.
REMEMBER this is not a fight. the question is whether current naruto has surpassed hashirama and the answer is clearly no.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

narutoish said:


> i don't even know if there is a comparison. we have hashirama who was able to control/tame the ninetails and various other bijus (that is impressive) and naruto who is just  being helped by one of the several bijus that hashirama had under his control. even if u can somehow prove that current naruto is stronger then 100% kurama, i just don't see how naruto still surpasses hashirama. naruto is just being helped by a biju while hashirama controlled several of them. i just fail to see how naruto has even done anything on his own to surpass the 1st.
> REMEMBER this is not a fight. the question is whether current naruto has surpassed hashirama and the answer is clearly no.



Being a perfected jinchuuriki > control a Bijuu.

Also Naruto has possibly now chakra from all 9 tailed beats (He even got a 9 tomo aura) and if so is the case. Even if we were to accept the baseless wankery version of "Hashirama controlled 8 Bijuus!" Naruto would still > him if he really got power of from all Bijuus.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lolwut? because Kyubi makes Sasuke-Madara an unfair comparison... i shouldnt have had to explain that to you



It is a fair comparison. the power of a summon is attributed to the summoner. Nagato called gamarinshou Jiraiya's genjutsu even though his summons performed it. Uchiha Madara had the kyuubi as a summon. The power of the kyuubi is his power. So, he was stronger than current Sasuke



jacamo said:


> its not an absurdity if Kishi, the author himself, stated it as FACT that Sasuke and Naruto progress as a pair... that means they are always equal or very close in terms strength, so they are either both stronger or weaker than Hashirama



Amen. They are both weaker



Orochibuto said:


> Which is irrelevant becuase we dont know how the fuck the fight went, Hashirama had nullifying Bijuu abilities, we dont know if he made the Kyuubi a non factor which is very possible. We know he fought EMS Madara but we dont know how Kyuubi factorized. I dont see how Hashirama can > Naruto going by feats the "he fought Kyuubi and Madara" is a non quantifiable feat and you know it very well becuase we dont know how the Kyuubi factorized.



Let me ask you a question. How do you interpret Minato's statement. He said Madara could only keep the kyuubi under control for a short amount of time. How do you interpret that?



Orochibuto said:


> So now Hashirama can control perfected jinchuurikies? As I know he has never shown or demonstrated to be able to control a Bijuu in a perfected jinchuuriki which is entirely different from the Bijuu alone. And we arent just going to assume he can, right?



But we should assume he can't? Why?



Orochibuto said:


> It is also to note Madara couldnt do it despite having Hashirama's powers PLUS his own powers plus Rinnegan.



"It is also to note" that Madara never tried 



Orochibuto said:


> So basically you think that Sasuke's EMS abilities will be below Madara's?



Read what I said again. 

Sasuke has been said to have more potential than Itachi. Hardly relevant in comparing him to Madara


I don't know how Sasuke EMS will compare to Madara. I know he is inferior to Madara with the kyuubi though



Orochibuto said:


> Then, let's wait to see more feats to start Hashirama > Naruto or Naruto > Hashirama threads, which has been all my point. I personally think there are no feats to judge who is weaker or stronger unless you want to use hype which become a wankery contest. I have only responded to posts clamining Hashirama > Naruto, personally? I think its irrelevant to debate it there are not enough feats for Hashirama to judge him neither we have ANY feats from current Naruto that received a multi Bijuu power up.



Judging power based on "feats" alone is silly. Naruto will always have more feats than non main characters. Is Naruto stronger than rikudou sennin? Rikudou sennin has no feats either. In the absence of feats, powerscaling and hype are to be used



Orochibuto said:


> If you can admit there are no feats for the debare I will agree so too, but if you keep saying that Hashirama > Naruto, then I will have to demonstrate otherwise by using the little feats we have for both. Please do note feats as in you know feats saying "OMG he > Madara+Kyuubi" is not a feat not a quanitifiable one since it require us to judge an unknown power (EMS) and to judge also how the Kyuubi factorized in a fight where a man has Bijuu controlling abilities. So far the only feats Hashirama has are the Hiruzen fight and by proxy if you wish Madara's mokuton feats. Everything else is hype and if you want to accept hype for Hashirama you must have to do the same for Naruto.



Again, RS has no feats and yet Kabuto says Rinnegan Madara is significantly weaker than him. relying on feats alone is silly. If the author says EMS Madara is stronger than Itachi, I don't have to wait for feats to place him above Itachi. If you insist on feats only, we can't compare Naruto to Hashirama



Orochibuto said:


> My point stand current Naruto is as unknown as Hashirama, no this is not future Naruto is current Naruto as you know Naruto currently as in the present chronology of the manga received chakra from at least 7 (and possibly 9) Bijuus this is current Naruto, you know the one that in base the sensor sensed full Kyuubi chakra levels and "something else" the one that Tobi saw a 9 tomoe aura and was extremelly confident on his ability despite being at base.



Having chakra does not mean shit. Baby Naruto had kyuubi chakra but could be killed by anyone. Once Naruto develops jutsu based on those bijuu chakra, we will give him the benefit



Orochibuto said:


> We havent seen Naruto with his multi Bijuu power up this is current Naruto which is as unknown Hashirama. We can only use thus shown feats to gauge the 2 fighters which in Hashirama's case is only the Hiruzen fight and Madara's Senju abilities. Otherwise it becomes a hype wankery contest when one side goes "No but he must be super strong because he defeated Madara EMS and Kyuubi, despite that we dont know anything of Madara's EMS abilities and how Kyuubi factorized in the fight vs" No no, but Naruto has now the power of possibly 9 Bijuus despute that we dont know anythinng about the method to use said power, etc."



So, Naruto is stronger than RS?



Orochibuto said:


> Doesnt change the fact that is current Naruto, which as I said his arsenal is just as unknown if not more than Hashirama's and EMS Madara because you know as you said we havent seen shit of him using his new power.



Naruto does not have new power. He has new CHAKRA. Chakra is not power. Chakra allows you to gain new power



Orochibuto said:


> Which is exactly my point, there is no case arguing if Hashirama > Naruto or if Naruto > Hashirama because we dont know the extent of the capabilities of either. Wanting to forcibly make them fight will force us to use Hashirama's shown feats vs Naruto's shown feats up to chapter 572 which is past Naruto and not the current version. Rightfully Hashirama fans wont want to use Hashirama's shown feats becuase Hashi would lose and its very possible he has way more to show. Thus again it is not yet time for that argument, Hashirama fans dont want to use shown feats and I understand their reasons, Naruto's fans dont want to use hype and if they do insert current Naruto's fight.



By shown feats alone, Naruto is stronger than RS. That is a silly way to judge power levels. 



Orochibuto said:


> Its basically a circular argument there is no conclusive evidence to point out Naruto is stronger than Hashirama or that Hashirama is stronger than Naruto as we dont know the extent of Hashirama's abilities and feats. So unless Hashirama has a proper flashback fight or set of abilities, or unless Naruto shows that he really has the power of the Bijuus and is Juubi and RS level or someone say "he surpasses all Hokages" its pointless.



Except that your approach is limited. Kishi will NEVER show feats from every character. So, off-panel feats and hype are used to fill the blank. I don't need to see RS to know that he was more powerful than Naruto, Madara and Kabuto




Orochibuto said:


> He does, we just dont know the extent of his abilities, said guy came into existence when the Bijuus gave him their chakra. Just as a guy that beaten Madara+Kyuubi exist, but again we dont know the extent of its abilities and we dont know anything about one of the foes he faced and how the other foe factorized into the fight.



Naruto does not have the chakra of 9 bijuu. So, nothing to discuss



Orochibuto said:


> Its not a feat becuase we dont know NOTHING of said fight we know NOTHING of EMS Madara unless you want us to use what Madara showed against Naruto and Gaara as EMS Madara which I dont think you dont want because it would make Hashirama's victory against EMS Madara zero impressive. And we dont know nothing about how the Kyuubi factorized in the fight. Its a feat that has nothing but hype to fight it.



OK, bro. A "feat" means an accomplishment. Hashirama defeating Madara is a feat. It is an off-panel feat but a feat nonetheless. 



Orochibuto said:


> Basically you are saying "We have the feat of him beating a very strong guy that was backed up against a very strong Bijuu" without knowing anything of how he did it. Do we know the capabilities of EMS Madara? No, do we know how the Kyuubi factorized? No. We know ZERO of the fight. It is a feat that force us to use hype to quantify it.



Again, you do not follow my argument. We know EMS Madara is stronger than MS Itachi. We know that EMS Madara with kyuubi is stronger than EMS Sasuke. We know that EMS Sasuke is more or less equal to current Naruto. So, if shodai is stronger than Madara, he is stronger than Naruto. 

That is what powerscaling is. Do you agree that RS is stronger than current Naruto? If you do, tell me how you came to that conclusion



Orochibuto said:


> I agree is silly, and this is exactly the silliness that using hype can lead us to.



But again hype would not lead us to that conclusion. It tells us shodai is in the same tier as current Madara but weaker than RS


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Shodai himself could deal with the power of a bijuu, considering he managed to capture all of them.


Hashirama had a _handful_, he didn't have them all. Plus, his abilities could suppress Biju chakra. Its not like he _overpowered them all_ like Naruto.


> Naruto's going to have to show more to convince me he's stronger than Shodai, because the bijuu cloak alone isn't going to cut it.


So other being physically stronger, physically faster, can clone himself in super mode, and having overwhelming firepower doesn't make him stronger than Hashi?


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## G Felon (Mar 5, 2012)

All of you are naruto fanboys And what's sad is your worse then the itachi/minato fanboys
100% kyuubi and madara can't beat hashirama how the hell is naruto going to stand a chance against hashirama think about it


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

G Felon said:


> All of you are naruto fanboys And what's sad is your worse then the itachi/minato fanboys
> 100% kyuubi and madara can't beat hashirama how the hell is naruto going to stand a chance against hashirama think about it


100% Kurama was less of a threat than Naruto's Biju Mode due to the fact that he couldn't properly control his own power. Not to mention that '100%' is a fallacy since Naruto has the full power of Kurama now. Its no where said that Yang Chakra Kurama was ANY weaker. 

Not to mention _you ignore Naruto's speed. Naruto's physical strength. His overwhelming firepower. His jutsus._

More like you are just buying to the hype to ignore Naruto's latest feats.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama had a _handful_, he didn't have them all. Plus, his abilities could suppress Biju chakra. Its not like he _overpowered them all_ like Naruto.
> 
> So other being physically stronger, physically faster, can clone himself in super mode, and having overwhelming firepower doesn't make him stronger than Hashi?



Hashirama can control bijuu like pets as Orochimaru said. The databook says that a bijuu facing him while he is using his hokage 60-year old technique: entering world with bliss will obey whatever order is written on his hand. If he says run, the bijuu will run. That is the meaning of controlling them like pets


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Hashirama can control bijuu like pets as Orochimaru said. The databook says that a bijuu facing him while he is using his hokage 60-year old technique: entering world with bliss will obey whatever order is written on his hand. If he says run, the bijuu will run. That is the meaning of controlling them like pets


Again, _control._ Naruto physically overpowered FIVE on top of overpowering Kurama himself.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> It is a fair comparison. the power of a summon is attributed to the summoner. Nagato called gamarinshou Jiraiya's genjutsu even though his summons performed it. Uchiha Madara had the kyuubi as a summon. The power of the kyuubi is his power. So, he was stronger than current Sasuke



I agree 100% with this.



Senjuclan said:


> Let me ask you a question. How do you interpret Minato's statement. He said Madara could only keep the kyuubi under control for a short amount of time. How do you interpret that?



That doesnt necessarily mean that Hashirama fought the Kyuubi and Madara head on, the time limit known to sharingan control doesnt mean it was known through the battle.

Even if it was it is only usable for a short period, Hashirama could have simply avoided Kyuubi for a short period of time and them fight Madara without Kyuubi. I am not against the notion that Hashirama can beat Kyuubi and Madara in one way or another but that you make it seam that the strenght of Hashirama is equal to the strenght of EMS Madara (which powers are completely unknown) and Kyuubi and that Hashirama fought them head on during the entirety of the fight and thus any shinobi that wishes to face him must be > EMS+Kyuubi.




Senjuclan said:


> But we should assume he can't? Why?



But we should assume he can? Why?

Honeslty is called burden of proof, not I am not making it up look for it its used in the battledome and in all formal debates. It basically says that the side that makes the positive claim is the one that has the burden of proof, until said proof is given, in a debate is assumed the negative until the positive claim is proven. This is becuase you cant prove a negative.



Senjuclan said:


> "It is also to note" that Madara never tried



He tried to take control of Kyuubi he couldnt seriously, he wanted to use it if he had among his tools methods to take control of a jinchuurikied Kyuubi he would. Again there is no proof that Hashirama can control Perfect Jinchuurikified Bijuus and unti that proof is given you cant use it.

Read what I said again. 



Senjuclan said:


> Sasuke has been said to have more potential than Itachi. Hardly relevant in comparing him to Madara
> 
> 
> I don't know how Sasuke EMS will compare to Madara. I know he is inferior to Madara with the kyuubi though



OK, according to your logic Hashirama and EMS Madara are Sasuke and Naruto current benchmarks right?

If so then according to you Naruto will stomp Sasuke during their fight becuase according to you Hashirama is as powerful as EMS and Kyuubi combined and Sasuke isnt getting the Kyuubi for their fight. Again Hashirama beating Madara and Kyuubi doesnt mean he is as powerful as both forces combined because as you know Madara's control over Kyuubi is short and Hashirama has tools that specifically counter Bijuus.



Senjuclan said:


> Judging power based on "feats" alone is silly. Naruto will always have more feats than non main characters. Is Naruto stronger than rikudou sennin? Rikudou sennin has no feats either. In the absence of feats, powerscaling and hype are to be used



And judgning basd on hype is even more silly, how is it silly? Feats is what are used on every formal deate like it or not. Go to the battledome, go to the OBD I dare you to try to stand an argument based on hype. Powerscaling is allowed in formal debates though, but hype is not. At least 50% of your argument is dependant on hype.

What are EMS Madara's abilities? Do you know them? No. Then how can you gauge effectively the feat of Hashirama? You have NOTHING but hype to use on "He beated Madara". You have no argument and like it or not using feats Naruto win and using powerscaling Nauto win too. The only thing that gives you a chance is hype which is not admissible unlike powerscaling and feats.



Senjuclan said:


> Again, RS has no feats and yet Kabuto says Rinnegan Madara is significantly weaker than him. relying on feats alone is silly. If the author says EMS Madara is stronger than Itachi, I don't have to wait for feats to place him above Itachi. If you insist on feats only, we can't compare Naruto to Hashirama



Then we cant compare Naruto to Hashirama beacause feats is the only way debates are formed in battledome and formal vs debate.

As for RS he has a feat creating the moon. The difference is that RS feat no matter what put him on a scale able to solo Narutoverse. Hashirama beating Madara means he beated a guy who we know NOTHING of his EMS abilities and we have ZERO idea of how he fought Kyuubi and if he used his bijuuc ounteting tools on him.

There are a lot of variables which can make Hashirama beating Madara going from impressive to something Naruto in KCM could do. Creating the moon has no variables, is a solid feat, you throw the moon in the planet and the planet dies.



Senjuclan said:


> Having chakra does not mean shit. Baby Naruto had kyuubi chakra but could be killed by anyone. Once Naruto develops jutsu based on those bijuu chakra, we will give him the benefit



This is like saying chapter 1 Naruto had Kyuubi's chakra 

Kyuubi chakra is only chakra when is usable and up to chapter 572 Naruto couldnt use the full Kyuubi chakra. The Bijuus gave him part of his chakra freely big differente than having a Bijuu sealed in you that doesnt want to share with you an ounce of its chakra. Fuck Naruto didnt even touched Kyuubi's chakra up till wave arc.



Senjuclan said:


> So, Naruto is stronger than RS?



Based on hype (which demonstrate how ridiculous is the use of hype, please dont mistake powerscaling for hype, the former is applicable in a limited way and always below shown feats to a debate, the latter is a ridiculous argument that is always silly) assuming he has 9 Bijuus chakra he is indeed Juubi level at full power.

Again I dont believe that, but I would if I used hype as an argument.



Senjuclan said:


> Naruto does not have new power. He has new CHAKRA. Chakra is not power. Chakra allows you to gain new power



So when Naruto in chapter 572 gained access to Kyuubi's chakra he didnt gained new power? 

Didnt he used abilities and feats never shown before and only possible because of the chakra? Didnt the first panel of the chapter clarly said "a new power?"



Senjuclan said:


> By shown feats alone, Naruto is stronger than RS. That is a silly way to judge power levels.



RS has the power of creating the moon, there is no way around the feat. Unlike Hashirama vs Madara feat which have a lot of variables which can make a big difference. You are asking people to take the Hashirama vs Madara feat and apply them the maximum possible scale where we dont know in what scale it was. You as us to just say "Oh we know EMS Madara was super strong!" and use that as a feat. Even if you downplay moon creation feat to its lowest possible extent say for example it was a Chibaku Tensei that took an entire day to form the moon and was extremelly taxing it still solo Narutoverse. Can we say the same if we took EMS Madara vs Hashiramma and apply it the lowest possible extent?



			
				Senjuclan; said:
			
		

> Except that your approach is limited. Kishi will NEVER show feats from every character. So, off-panel feats and hype are used to fill the blank. I don't need to see RS to know that he was more powerful than Naruto, Madara and Kabuto



Off panel quantifiable feats are appliable, hype on the other hand is not and will always lead to ridiculous debates.

Feats doesnt need to be shown, but they need to be quantifiable. Please do tell me how can we quantify Hashirama beating Madara feat if we know NOTHING of EMS Madara? If we know NOTHING of the fight?

You arent asking me to take a feat in count but an entire event.





			
				Senjuclan; said:
			
		

> Naruto does not have the chakra of 9 bijuu. So, nothing to discuss



You missed the chapter where the Bijuus brofisted with Naruto and gave them their chakra? Where Son Goku expicitilly said through the brofist he gave him some of his chakra and all the Bijuus proceeded to do the same? And that we say a 9 tomoe aura about him?

Him having the chakra of 9 Bijuus is debatable, but he certaintly has of 7.



			
				Senjuclan; said:
			
		

> OK, bro. A "feat" means an accomplishment. Hashirama defeating Madara is a feat. It is an off-panel feat but a feat nonetheless.



It doesnt matter if its panel or not, I agree is a feat. But how do we quanitfy it? Can you tell me the powers of EMS Madara? Can you tell me how he fought Kyuubi? Can you tell me exactly how Kyuubi factorized and if Hashirama had an advantadge over Kyuubi for having anti-bijuu powers and sharingan control being short?

What it matters is that the feat is quanitfiable. How can I apply the feat? How can you possibly know the feat compares or not at all to Naruto's feats on chapter 572 and 573?



			
				Senjuclan; said:
			
		

> Again, you do not follow my argument. We know EMS Madara is stronger than MS Itachi. We know that EMS Madara with kyuubi is stronger than EMS Sasuke. We know that EMS Sasuke is more or less equal to current Naruto. So, if shodai is stronger than Madara, he is stronger than Naruto.



No we dont know EMS Sasuke is equal to current Naruto you are assuming that, there is ZERO evidence to back that up. Naruto and Sasuke doesnt have to be equal always at all times. There have been times where Sasuke would rape Naruto. You just assume that because "they have to be equal" this necessarily mean that we only because of that are to assume Hashirama > Naruto.

You dont know if this is one one these momments where one of them is stronger than the other, thus you dont know and have no evidence or feats to claim EMS Sasuke is more or less equal to curent Naruto.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan; said:
			
		

> That is what powerscaling is. Do you agree that RS is stronger than current Naruto? If you do, tell me how you came to that conclusion
> 
> Because Naruto cant solo Narutoverse.
> 
> But again hype would not lead us to that conclusion. It tells us shodai is in the same tier as current Madara but weaker than RS



I accept powersclaing Senjuclan what I do not accept and neither any formal debate accepts (go to battledome or OBD to see) is hype.

Powesrscaling is not unlimited either, it can be used but it is always as a reinforcement and not as the argument itself.

I am ending the debate here, its obvious is running in circles and you arent going to covnince me neither am I going to convince you, you will clinge to hype and state why Hashirama beaten a guy we dont know a shit about proves he is stronger.

The point its ridiculous because as you know the only thing that is requried (given you are so dependant on statements, etc.) is a 1 liner from any character saying Naruto has surpassed all Hokages or Naruto showing new feats of having all the Bijuus chakra.

I am goign to close the debate, you arent going to convince me at this point until you have new feats of Hashirama (for example making the Madara argument a quantifiable one) and its obvious neither will I unless I have new feats of Naruto.

I will only say that on the risk of being wrong you arent in a very good position, Naruto has received chakra from 7 Bijuus certaintly and possibly 9. The Tobi vs Naruto fight is about to start and all that is required is 1 chapter of new feats or worse a 1 liner from a character saying Naruto surpassed all Hokages and then everything goes down for Hashirama > Naruto.


EDIT:

One last question Senjuclan, you seem to rely too much on "Sauske = Naruto" (depsite being shown it doesnt has to be at all times and there are times where one is stronger to push the other).

In the hypothetical case that Naruto really got chakra from 9 Bijuus and got a literal RS or Juubi mode and please do note this is only an hypothesis. How would you come to terms with the idea of EMS Sasuke being equal?

Would you keep up claiming that Hashirama > Naruto, based solely on the argument of Sasuke's supposed equality with Naruto? Havent you considered the possibility that EMS may not be Sasuke's final power up?


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

G Felon said:


> All of you are naruto fanboys And what's sad is your worse then the itachi/minato fanboys
> 100% kyuubi and madara can't beat hashirama how the hell is naruto going to stand a chance against hashirama think about it



Except it was explicitilly said jinchuurikified Bijuus > Bijuus. The more perfected the jinchuuriki the strongest.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Hashirama can control bijuu like pets as Orochimaru said. The databook says that a bijuu facing him while he is using his hokage 60-year old technique: entering world with bliss will obey whatever order is written on his hand. If he says run, the bijuu will run. That is the meaning of controlling them like pets



Control =/= overpower or being stronger. If I have mindfuck powers and I take control over a bodybuilder or an entity that is way more powerful than me does that make me stronger?


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## vagnard (Mar 5, 2012)

From what we have seen this is my list:

1-Rikudo Sennin
2-FBM Naruto / Rinnegan Tobi 
3-Kabuto
4-Edo Madara
5-Minato Namikaze
6-Hashirama Senju


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## G Felon (Mar 5, 2012)

100% kyuubi is the same if not more of a threat. From what I saw in a short anime version of madara/kyuubi vs hashirama. The kyuubi had the perfect counter to hashis wood style his roars. They obliterated all the Wood hashi created in an instant naruto being so small doesn't have a move other than bijuu ball which is half as strong as the one the kyuubi did against hashi which he blocked and deflected. Yang chakra Kurama is weaker it doesn't have to be stated to be true. Half strength is half strength. 

Hashi can make forests instantaneous just Like speed, by living in battle his entire life we can assume hes a better fighter strategist, thinker. With the ability to make poisonous forests, regenerate create defenses superior to anything naruto can break through. Hype a result from feats. I'd say narutos only chance of winning if they fought would be to use all the chakra from the tailed beasts


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## tgm2x (Mar 5, 2012)

Lacks wood


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

G Felon said:


> 100% kyuubi is the same if not more of a threat. From what I saw in a short anime version of madara/kyuubi vs hashirama. The kyuubi had the perfect counter to hashis wood style his roars. They obliterated all the Wood hashi created in an instant naruto being so small doesn't have a move other than bijuu ball which is half as strong as the one the kyuubi did against hashi which he blocked and deflected. Yang chakra Kurama is weaker it doesn't have to be stated to be true. Half strength is half strength.


That anime short is just that, a short. It isn't canon. And Kurama when controlled and working WITH Naruto is more effective than the Kurama that Hashirama displayed. 

If Kurama was weaker, there'd be NO reason for Minato to seal him inside Naruto. Nothing the manga has EVER implied is that Kurama is weaker.


> Hashi can make forests instantaneous just Like speed, by living in battle his entire life we can assume hes a better fighter strategist, thinker. With the ability to make poisonous forests, regenerate create defenses superior to anything naruto can break through. Hype a result from feats. I'd say narutos only chance of winning if they fought would be to use all the chakra from the tailed beasts


Hashi has no feats equal to his hype. Naruto's feats beat Hashi's and his hype.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama had a _handful_, he didn't have them all.



Irrelevant, the fact that he was able to capture several speaks for itself.

And he ended up going head to head with the strongest one, and still came out on top.

Hashirama can defeat any bijuu.



> Plus, his abilities could suppress Biju chakra. Its not like he _overpowered them all_ like Naruto.



He still needs to be able to go head to head with them in order to suppress them. He can't simply take control with just one glance like Madara.

What Naruto did is also exactly what Hashirama probably did, pin them so they couldn't move.



> So other being physically stronger, physically faster, can clone himself in super mode, and having overwhelming firepower doesn't make him stronger than Hashi?



He's already proven he can deal with Kyuubi itself, there's no reason to think the Bijuu cloak, which was only a portion of Kyuubi's power, would be any more difficult for him to deal with.

The fact that he also dealt with Madara should be enough reason to believe he can deal with Naruto.


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## jacamo (Mar 5, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> being equal doesnt mean they have to be equal always at all times



yes it does, more or less

Kishi stated "they progress as a pair" so im going with what he said



Senjuclan said:


> It is a fair comparison. the power of a summon is attributed to the summoner. Nagato called gamarinshou Jiraiya's genjutsu even though his summons performed it. Uchiha Madara had the kyuubi as a summon. The power of the kyuubi is his power. So, he was stronger than current Sasuke



 get real... that is never a fair comparison

Kyubi isnt just some summon like the other farm animals we have seen, its the most powerful Biju... just because Madara was able to genjutsu the Kyubi and force some kind of summoning contract upon it doesnt make it "his" summon

with the right knowledge Sasuke could do the same thing


Edit:

*Spoiler*: __ 



unless future chapters reveal that the Kyubi is indefinitely tied or linked to the Uchiha clan's bloodline, then no... you can never consider the Kyubi to be part of Madara's power

Hashirama stripped it away from Madara with the contract seal for goodness sake... and it didnt disappear like an actual summon would


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> yes it does, more or less
> 
> Kishi stated "they progress as a pair" so im going with what he said



How about the time Sasuke stomped Naruto in early part 2? Or the time Sasuke would have stomped base Naruto with his MS? Or how SM Naruto would have stomped unmastered MS Sasuke?

Such instances where one was way superior to the other exists, are you going to ignore it?


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## jacamo (Mar 5, 2012)

^i said more or less, so not "equal" in the strictest sense

yes you could say each have been superior at certain points in the story, but only by small margins... i certainly dont think Naruto or Sasuke could have ever been able to "stomp" one another, at any point


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Irrelevant, the fact that he was able to capture several speaks for itself.
> 
> And he ended up going head to head with the strongest one, and still came out on top.
> 
> Hashirama can defeat any bijuu.


Hashirama can defeat any Biju..but he can't defeat any Jinchuriki since they use their beast's powers more effectively and intelligently. 




> He still needs to be able to go head to head with them in order to suppress them. He can't simply take control with just one glance like Madara.
> 
> What Naruto did is also exactly what Hashirama probably did, pin them so they couldn't move.


Naruto physically overpowered several Biju at once. He overpowered Kurama. Unlike Hashirama, he doesn't have a special ability to suppress them.

Oh, have you thought that Hashirama could suppress a Biju's _will?_ If said will is mixed with a Jinchuriki though, it changes. And if Biju Chakra (like in Naruto's initial NTCM) is so full of life energy, it makes Mokuton constructs almost implode with growth to a degree the user can't control.


> He's already proven he can deal with Kyuubi itself, there's no reason to think the Bijuu cloak, which was only a portion of Kyuubi's power, would be any more difficult for him to deal with.


Naruto has full access to Kurama's powers. Its not a 'portion' anymore, and its even MIXED with Naruto's chakra making an entirely new one. 

And yeah, _show me comparable speed and strength and firepower feats!_


> The fact that he also dealt with Madara should be enough reason to believe he can deal with Naruto.


Madara doesn't have any of the strength, any of the speed, or any of the superior firepower that Naruto possesses.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ^i said more or less, so not "equal" in the strictest sense
> 
> yes you could say each have been superior at certain points in the story, but only by small margins... i certainly dont think Naruto or Sasuke could have ever been able to "stomp" one another, at any point



Sasuke actually stomped Naruto at early part 2, it was not only possible it happened.

And Naruto prior to SM training had relinquished to his jinchuuriki powers restricting him to base at which point Sauske had the MS. Sasuke MS would have raped base Naruto.


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## jacamo (Mar 5, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Sasuke actually stomped Naruto at early part 2, it was not only possible it happened.
> 
> And Naruto prior to SM training had relinquished to his jinchuuriki powers restricting him to base at which point Sauske had the MS. Sasuke MS would have raped base Naruto.



in a way thats true... but if those fights ever became serious the Kyubi would have taken over and made it more even, with or without Naruto's consent


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> in a way thats true... but if those fights ever became serious the Kyubi would have taken over and made it more even, with or without Naruto's consent



Having the potential to reach a greater power doesnt change that Sasuke at that level stomped Naruto. Potential doesnt change the actual level. Sasuke also had the potential if reach enough hatred or guilt to unlock MS without the need of killing Naruto, doesnt change the fact of his actual level.

Also even if we take the "Kyuubi would had taken over" as a valid argument is actually worse of a stomp, because it would mean Sasuke would have to fight KN8 (it cant be 9 since Naruto has to actually remove the seal for that to happen) which would have horribly raped Sasuke.

So as you can see, even if you change it in that situation it is still a stomp situation.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Mar 5, 2012)

Naruto barely surpassed Hashirama when he unlocked RM mode. Current Naruto is a tier higher than Hashirama. It was a huge jump from RM mode to Kyubi mode. I would say he is on Tobi with Rinnegan, Madara with Hashirama cell and Rinnegan and Kabuto with ET tier. 

I placed them all in the same tier in my sig.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 5, 2012)

I thought this was pretty obvious, actually. Shodai doesn't even have much to go on in the way of feats; I would place him in the same tier as Itachi, Nagato, and Minato- albeit a little stronger than those three, perhaps.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 5, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> I accept powersclaing Senjuclan what I do not accept and neither any formal debate accepts (go to battledome or OBD to see) is hype.
> 
> Powesrscaling is not unlimited either, it can be used but it is always as a reinforcement and not as the argument itself.
> 
> I am ending the debate here, its obvious is running in circles and you arent going to covnince me neither am I going to convince you, you will clinge to hype and state why Hashirama beaten a guy we dont know a shit about proves he is stronger.



You are funny because your argument is based on a lie. You claim that I am basing Hashirama's power on hype when I am not. I am basing it on powerscaling as suggested. Furthermore, you are confused about the difference between hype and off-panel feats



Orochibuto said:


> The point its ridiculous because as you know the only thing that is requried (given you are so dependant on statements, etc.) is a 1 liner from any character saying Naruto has surpassed all Hokages or Naruto showing new feats of having all the Bijuus chakra.
> 
> I am goign to close the debate, you arent going to convince me at this point until you have new feats of Hashirama (for example making the Madara argument a quantifiable one) and its obvious neither will I unless I have new feats of Naruto.
> 
> I will only say that on the risk of being wrong you arent in a very good position, Naruto has received chakra from 7 Bijuus certaintly and possibly 9. The Tobi vs Naruto fight is about to start and all that is required is 1 chapter of new feats or worse a 1 liner from a character saying Naruto surpassed all Hokages and then everything goes down for Hashirama > Naruto.



By feats, Naruto is stronger than RS too. Yet, you don't accept that. You don't because you know feats alone are limited




Orochibuto said:


> One last question Senjuclan, you seem to rely too much on "Sauske = Naruto" (depsite being shown it doesnt has to be at all times and there are times where one is stronger to push the other).
> 
> In the hypothetical case that Naruto really got chakra from 9 Bijuus and got a literal RS or Juubi mode and please do note this is only an hypothesis. How would you come to terms with the idea of EMS Sasuke being equal?
> 
> Would you keep up claiming that Hashirama > Naruto, based solely on the argument of Sasuke's supposed equality with Naruto? Havent you considered the possibility that EMS may not be Sasuke's final power up?



Go back a couple of pages in this thread and you will see that I answered that question. IF Naruto is decidedly stronger than EMS Sasuke and stronger than EMS Sasuke + kyuubi, he is stronger than shodai



Orochibuto said:


> Control =/= overpower or being stronger. If I have mindfuck powers and I take control over a bodybuilder or an entity that is way more powerful than me does that make me stronger?



You realize that I was talking about something else, right? 



jacamo said:


> get real... that is never a fair comparison
> 
> Kyubi isnt just some summon like the other farm animals we have seen, its the most powerful Biju... just because Madara was able to genjutsu the Kyubi and force some kind of summoning contract upon it doesnt make it "his" summon
> 
> with the right knowledge Sasuke could do the same thing



1. Sasuke can do it but he has not. So, he does not have the power of the kyuubi as his summon for now. 
2. Strongest bijuu or not, kyuubi was Madara's summon. So, it is part of his power. I know you don't want to accept that because you are a Sasuke fan but oh well ...



jacamo said:


> unless future chapters reveal that the Kyubi is indefinitely tied or linked to the Uchiha clan's bloodline, then no... you can never consider the Kyubi to be part of Madara's power
> 
> Hashirama stripped it away from Madara with the contract seal for goodness sake... and it didnt disappear like an actual summon would



1. That OVA is not canon
2. A summon is a creature you call on through space-time contract. Whether it disappears or not is irrelevant. Edo tensei is a summon but the zombies do not disappear either. 




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama can defeat any Biju..but he can't defeat any Jinchuriki since they use their beast's powers more effectively and intelligently.



 You know Hashirama can control jinchiruki too, right? He can control a bijuu inside a jinchiruki



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Oh, have you thought that Hashirama could suppress a Biju's _will?_ If said will is mixed with a Jinchuriki though, it changes. And if Biju Chakra (like in Naruto's initial NTCM) is so full of life energy, it makes Mokuton constructs almost implode with growth to a degree the user can't control.
> 
> Naruto has full access to Kurama's powers. Its not a 'portion' anymore, and its even MIXED with Naruto's chakra making an entirely new one.



Portion or not, he is a jinchiruki and Hashirama controls jinchiruki



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And yeah, _show me comparable speed and strength and firepower feats!_



Sure, Nagato had comparable speed feats that is why he soloed both KCM Naruto and Kirabi at the same time?    Speed does not determine fights.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 5, 2012)

Yamato's version of Shodai's Bijuu-suppressing technique *did* work on Yonbi Naruto, but that was before Naruto gained Kurama's cooperation.

It's entirely unclear at this point whether or not Shodai's version would have any effect against current Naruto. I'm willing to bet that it doesn't, since Naruto seperated Kurama's will from his chakra in order to achieve KCM. Unless Shodai's technique can be used on people as well, it shouldn't work; he wouldn't be fighting a Bijuu- just a human with a Bijuu's chakra.


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## rubberguy (Mar 5, 2012)

Hashirama's feat doesn't impress me and i don't support hype w/ little feats. Being the main character is a hype in itself greater than any other hype.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 5, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Yamato's version of Shodai's Bijuu-suppressing technique *did* work on Yonbi Naruto, but that was before Naruto gained Kurama's cooperation.
> 
> It's entirely unclear at this point whether or not Shodai's version would have any effect against current Naruto. I'm willing to bet that it doesn't, since Naruto seperated Kurama's will from his chakra in order to achieve KCM. Unless Shodai's technique can be used on people as well, it shouldn't work; he wouldn't be fighting a Bijuu- just a human with a Bijuu's chakra.



Mokuton controls jinchiruki just as much as it controls bijuu according to Yamato and the databook


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 5, 2012)

Hokages Ranking
Naruto > Hashirama > Sarutobi > Yondaime > 2nd hokage


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## Kai (Mar 5, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> He still needs to be able to go head to head with them in order to suppress them. He can't simply take control with just one glance like Madara.
> 
> What Naruto did is also exactly what Hashirama probably did, pin them so they couldn't move.


Wrong, and of course he can. Everything in the manga regarding Hashirama's control over bijuu implies absolute control with ease and at his whim, and absolutely nothing in the manga implies there is a power struggle between his Kekkei Genkai and the bijuu's resistance.

Tobi and Madara affirm that Hashirama _"controlled bijuu like they were his pets."_


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## Senjuclan (Mar 5, 2012)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Hokages Ranking
> Naruto > Hashirama > Sarutobi > Yondaime > 2nd hokage





You know Tsunade sucks when she does not even get mentioned as hokage but Naruto who is not even hokage yet gets mentioned.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> You know Hashirama can control jinchiruki too, right? He can control a bijuu inside a jinchiruki


With his crystal. Which Naruto destroyed.




> Portion or not, he is a jinchiruki and Hashirama controls jinchiruki


Naruto lacks the crystal, remember? Thats how Hashi could control Jinchuriki.




> Sure, Nagato had comparable speed feats that is why he soloed both KCM Naruto and Kirabi at the same time?    Speed does not determine fights.


You mean when Naruto _didn't use speed and acted like an idiot?_ And Nagato has hypersonic+ reactions (given he could react to the FRS at point blank, the only other person to do that is the Third Raikage).


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## Senjuclan (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> With his crystal. Which Naruto destroyed.



No. With his chakra. The crystal responds to shodai's chakra to facilitate Tenzou to control Naruto. It is not the crystal that controls the tailed beast but shodai's chakra



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto lacks the crystal, remember? Thats how Hashi could control Jinchuriki.



False. The crystal amplifies shodai's chakra but has no bijuu controlling powers itself



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You mean when Naruto _didn't use speed and acted like an idiot?_ And Nagato has hypersonic+ reactions (given he could react to the FRS at point blank, the only other person to do that is the Third Raikage).



Meaning in other words that speed does not determine fights, right? An immobile fighter with "hypersonic reaction" can defeat the fastest man in the world at the same time that he is defeating arguably the third fastest man in the world


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## narutoish (Mar 5, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Being a perfected jinchuuriki > control a Bijuu.
> 
> Also Naruto has possibly now chakra from all 9 tailed beats (He even got a 9 tomo aura) and if so is the case. Even if we were to accept the baseless wankery version of "Hashirama controlled 8 Bijuus!" Naruto would still > him if he really got power of from all Bijuus.



a perfected jinjuriki < controling multiple bijuus

hashirama controlled the bijuus with his power and naruto is being HELPED by the bijuu/bijuus so their is the difference. anyone can be helped by the bijuus but controlling them is not something anyone can do.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> No. With his chakra. The crystal responds to shodai's chakra to facilitate Tenzou to control Naruto. It is not the crystal that controls the tailed beast but shodai's chakra


From the article, the crystal is needed so Hashirama could penetrate Naruto's mind to suppress Kurama.



> Hokage-style Sixty-year-old Technique - Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-bringing Hands* (火影式耳順術　廓庵入鄽垂手, Hokage-shiki Jijun Jutsu - Kakuan Nitten Suisha)
> Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
> Users: Yamato, Shodai Hokage
> 
> ...





> False. The crystal amplifies shodai's chakra but has no bijuu controlling powers itself


The crystal is required for Hashirama to enter the Jinchuriki's mind and suppress the biju inside.




> Meaning in other words that speed does not determine fights, right? An immobile fighter with "hypersonic reaction" can defeat the fastest man in the world at the same time that he is defeating arguably the third fastest man in the world


Naruto never used his speed against Nagato though. He jumped in and was caught by the Chameleon almost immediately, and we didn't even get the speed effects.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Mokuton controls jinchiruki just as much as it controls bijuu according to Yamato and the databook



Is Mokuton even related? I thought Hashirama's Bijuu-suppression was a completely seperate ability.

EDIT: Well I guess SSM12 just cleared that one up...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Is Mokuton even related? I thought Hashirama's Bijuu-suppression was a completely seperate ability.
> 
> EDIT: Well I guess SSM12 just cleared that one up...


He can do it without the crystal if there is no Jinchuriki, just the Biju. But to suppress a Jinchuriki's biju abilities, the crystal seems to be required.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He can do it without the crystal if there is no Jinchuriki, just the Biju. But to suppress a Jinchuriki's biju abilities, the crystal seems to be required.



The translation of the databook entry you posted says the crystal is required for Bijuu as well.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> The translation of the databook entry you posted says the crystal is required for Bijuu as well.


Hm...yeah. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

narutoish said:


> a perfected jinjuriki < controling multiple bijuus
> 
> hashirama controlled the bijuus with his power and naruto is being HELPED by the bijuu/bijuus so their is the difference. anyone can be helped by the bijuus but controlling them is not something anyone can do.



Kurama is part of Naruto's power as they are basically merged in that mode want to admit it or not.

Secondly being a perfected Jinchuuriki has shown to be on another different tier than forcibly controlling the Bijuus outside.


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## Eikichi Onizuka (Mar 5, 2012)

When did Naruto gaining some of the chakra from the tailed beast become part of his every lasting powers. This might just be a one time power up and not something he can count on forever. I still take the 1st in that because of battle experience, the ability to heal like Naruto, and the fact he has a kick ass wood ability. If the 1st is able to control the bijuu in any way then I think Naruto is screwed. His fights most relay on him outlasting the other person and if the nine tails is putting in no type of work I dont see the 1st falling for any shadow clone bs or anything of that sort.


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## Ezekial (Mar 5, 2012)

Naruto's still not powerful enough to beat Sasuke with out a massive struggle, Madara >>> Sasuke, and Hashirama = Madara sooooo... Hashirama can suppress Naruto's Kyuubi chakra so inturn that will suppress his speed, strength and overall power, Naruto would have to rely on Sage mode, Hashirama >>> Naruto FACT


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Naruto's still not powerful enough to beat Sasuke with out a massive struggle, Madara >>> Sasuke, and Hashirama = Madara sooooo... Hashirama can suppress Naruto's Kyuubi chakra so inturn that will suppress his speed, strength and overall power, Naruto would have to rely on Sage mode, Hashirama >>> Naruto FACT


For all we know, pure EMS Madara is equal to EMS Sasuke. And Sasuke is probably getting a power up to get to Biju Mode Naruto's level. 

And Hashirama can't suppress Kurama's chakra without the crystal. Which again, Naruto _destroyed._


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## Marsala (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12;42281912
And Hashirama can't suppress Kurama's chakra without the crystal. Which again said:
			
		

> destroyed.[/I]



Actually Yamato could suppress the Kyuubi without the crystal, as he was trying to do in Naruto's bijuu training. It helps but it's probably not a requirement. The Killer Wooden Giraffes of Doom can do it by themselves.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Actually Yamato could suppress the Kyuubi without the crystal, as he was trying to do in Naruto's bijuu training. It helps but it's probably not a requirement. The Killer Wooden Giraffes of Doom can do it by themselves.


The jutsu description says it is a requirement.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The jutsu description says it is a requirement.



According to what, the databook? 

Manga > databook


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> According to what, the databook?
> 
> Manga > databook


Databook's written by Kishimoto. Its as canon as the manga.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Databook's written by Kishimoto. Its as canon as the manga.



So Tobi is Madara then?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> So Tobi is Madara then?


Jutsu descriptions don't change unlike biographies.


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## Marsala (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The jutsu description says it is a requirement.



So what was Yamato trying to do? Why was he even trusted with Naruto if he had become essentially useless?

Anyway, Yamato maintained a long-distance link with Naruto even after the necklace was crushed. The number of tails on his hand continued to go up.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jutsu descriptions don't change unlike biographies.



What a ridiculous statement. Why should biographical entries be any different from jutsu entries? The Tobi entry was flat out wrong. It contained information that the manga showed to be completely untrue. Why would jutsu entries be different? If they are contradicted, then they are proven to be wrong.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 5, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jutsu descriptions don't change unlike biographies.



Amaterasu is hotter than the sun?


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 5, 2012)

All I know is that hashi wud get blitz'd son!


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## Kaname Kuran (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> That was my point. The Uchiha fans are in a class of their own. We, shodai fans and there are only a few of us, are reasonable. We don't expect him to be the strongest at the end of the story. Heck, we don't even think he was stronger than Kabuto who made that comment



I take offense to this sir 

I am a Madara and Itachi fan and never say anything like what you have said.


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## jacamo (Mar 5, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Sasuke can do it but he has not. So, he does not have the power of the kyuubi as his summon for now.
> 2. Strongest bijuu or not, kyuubi was Madara's summon. So, it is part of his power. I know you don't want to accept that because you are a Sasuke fan but oh well ...



so now i have an ulterior motive because im a Sasuke fan? WOW you know someone is desperate when they do that...    

and this is ALL because i dont think its fair to include the Kyubi in a comparison between EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara... if you want to compare EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara then compare EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara, dont be illogical and include the Kyubi


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## Orochibuto (Mar 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so now i have an ulterior motive because im a Sasuke fan? WOW you know someone is desperate when they do that...
> 
> and this is ALL because i dont think its fair to include the Kyubi in a comparison between EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara... if you want to compare EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara then compare EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara, dont be illogical and include the Kyubi



For one I agree with Jacamo who I never thought would agree with.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so now i have an ulterior motive because im a Sasuke fan? WOW you know someone is desperate when they do that...
> 
> and this is ALL because i dont think its fair to include the Kyubi in a comparison between EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara... if you want to compare EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara then compare EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara, dont be illogical and include the Kyubi



Tell me do you include Nidaime mizukage clam as part of his power? Do you include Hanzou's salamander as part of his power? Do you include Ma and Pa as part of Jiraiya's power?

Tell me what is the difference between those summons and the kyuubi for Madara?


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## Orochibuto (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Tell me do you include Nidaime mizukage clam as part of his power? Do you include Hanzou's salamander as part of his power? Do you include Ma and Pa as part of Jiraiya's power?
> 
> Tell me what is the difference between those summons and the kyuubi for Madara?



Senjuclan I agree with you, claiming Kyuubi isnt part of EMS Madara's power (when he had it) its like the haters that claim edo tensei isnt pat of Kabuto's power, a hater argument that should be ignored and silly.

However you seem to be under the impression that to face Hashirama you need to be as strong as the combined forces of Kyuubi and EMS Madara when that doesnt has to be the case because a lot of factors could come in, for example Hashirama's anti Bijuu tools and Madara's short time control.

That being said we know NOTHING about EMS Madara abilities.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Senjuclan I agree with you, claiming Kyuubi isnt part of EMS Madara's power (when he had it) its like the haters that claim edo tensei isnt pat of Kabuto's power, a hater argument that should be ignored and silly.
> 
> However you seem to be under the impression that to face Hashirama you need to be as strong as the combined forces of Kyuubi and EMS Madara when that doesnt has to be the case because a lot of factors could come in, for example Hashirama's anti Bijuu tools and Madara's short time control.
> 
> That being said we know NOTHING about EMS Madara abilities.



1. we know nothing about EMS Madara, hence why I say he could be stronger or weaker than Sasuke. However, he is overall stronger because he had the kyuubi
2. I don't decide the strength of a ninja based on the outcome of a fight. Kisame beat Kirabi fair and square but most everyone agree Kirabi was stronger. He would defeat more people than Kisame can but Kisame is a bad match-up. I don't say shodai is stronger because he beat Madara. It seems people thought shodai was overall stronger and Madara himself agrees to it.
3. Hashirama fought both kyuubi and Madara for a while and during that time, he did not lose. His bijuu control came into account later in the fight.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. we know nothing about EMS Madara, hence why I say he could be stronger or weaker than Sasuke. However, he is overall stronger because he had the kyuubi
> 2. I don't decide the strength of a ninja based on the outcome of a fight. Kisame beat Kirabi fair and square but most everyone agree Kirabi was stronger. He would defeat more people than Kisame can but Kisame is a bad match-up. I don't say shodai is stronger because he beat Madara. It seems people thought shodai was overall stronger and Madara himself agrees to it.
> 3. Hashirama fought both kyuubi and Madara for a while and during that time, he did not lose. His bijuu control came into account later in the fight.



Then why do you think Hashirama is stronger than Naruto?


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## jacamo (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Tell me do you include Nidaime mizukage clam as part of his power? Do you include Hanzou's salamander as part of his power? Do you include Ma and Pa as part of Jiraiya's power?
> 
> Tell me what is the difference between those summons and the kyuubi for Madara?



the Kyubi alone is more powerful than EMS Madara, and i dont care if you think the Kyubi "is part of Madara's power".... its clearly illogical to think its fair to include the Kyubi in a comparison between EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara


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## Golden Circle (Mar 6, 2012)

I must respectfully disagree. While Naruto may be really strong in certain areas, he is severely lacking in other areas, such as the number of ninjutsu in one's arsenal. Hashirama is way more versatile than Naruto is.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 6, 2012)

Golden Circle said:


> I must respectfully disagree. While Naruto may be really strong in certain areas, he is severely lacking in other areas, such as the number of ninjutsu in one's arsenal. Hashirama is way more versatile than Naruto is.


Naruto has the most versatile ninjutsu in the manga, the Rasengan. Which he has several variants with more versatility.


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## Sasuke` (Mar 6, 2012)

You are foolish. Hashirama would rape current Naruto.


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## Tengu (Mar 6, 2012)

alchemy1234 said:


> Well, hype wise hashirama >>> naruto. feat wise and using battledome logic, naruto is stronger. There is not enough information to draw any conclusions at this point. So thread is basically premature. ATM tobi, isn't too threatened by naruto though, I'm sure deep down inside he may be nervous, but not to the point where it would be obvious. This fact actually would undermine naruto's current level of strength.
> 
> I'm actually not even sure why op bothered making this thread, as anything he/she says is basically an assumption. We hardly have any knowledge about what hashirama could do.
> 
> I do know one thing, there is absolutely no way naruto is stronger than the madara we're seeing right now, even if you remove madaras immortality, madara would win.



Best answer in this thread, i agree.


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## BlazeD (Mar 6, 2012)

I think Naruto power and speed wise is the strongest in the anime.  But he's still lacking experience, which is why he'll always level up like crazy, only to be knocked / nerfed back down.  Experience will be the key in him being the best ever, which he'll achieve by the end of the manga.  Deflecting 5 bijuu bombs indeed was pretty fucking epic.  Naruto just needs to master seals and up that battle experience and he's set.



lazer said:


> There's a video with madara and kyuubi vs hashirama and it showed the 100% kurama (not the 50% kurama that naruto has) fired a bijuu dama at hashirama. Hashirama reflected it using mokuton. Sorry but hashirama is a monster.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRW2XiCbWQA[/YOUTUBE]


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## Oga Tatsumi (Mar 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the Kyubi alone is more powerful than EMS Madara, and i dont care if you think the Kyubi "is part of Madara's power".... its clearly illogical to think its fair to include the Kyubi in a comparison between EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara



Kyuubi is part of Madara Power anyway Madara don`t even used his 3 MS Ocular Jutsus against Hashirama in the Battle of VOTE maybe because he was controlling the kyuubi , Hashirama to win against Madara was necessary take over the control of the Kyuubi from Madara


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 6, 2012)

Sasuke` said:


> You are foolish. Hashirama would rape current Naruto.


Naruto can bitch slap five Bijus with his own power yet Hashirama would 'rape' him?


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## PDQ (Mar 6, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto can bitch slap five Bijus with his own power yet Hashirama would 'rape' him?



Hashirama could control *any* number of Bijuu like pets (he had at *minimum* 5 at one point, including Mito's Kurama).  That was the whole reason he was made Hokage in the first place.

It didn't require the crystal because he had multiple under his control and only one crystal.
So forget 5 Bijuu powered Bijuudama, try 8 or 9.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

I’m probably repeating myself but I need a scan of Hashirama controlling a perfect Jinchuuriki of Naruto’s caliber.

Kurama is chained behind a stronger seal than the original one (“This is the Sage of the Six Paths [something]…”).
Kurama claims that Naruto has some kind of relation to the Sage of the Six Paths (“Naruto is the Sage of the Six Paths [something…]”).
Madara, one of the most knowledgeable characters of the manga, is perplexed before Naruto’s abilities (“What is Naruto?”)
Naruto’s chakra has some kind of effect on Mokuton (mutated trees and Zetsu).
Naruto’s new form is one that has never been seen before.

Binding a wild demon is one thing; affecting one shielded by layers of protection is another thing. Burden on proof is on you.


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## Eikichi Onizuka (Mar 6, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto can bitch slap five Bijus with his own power yet Hashirama would 'rape' him?



What does any prove, that was a mechanism of talk no justu. Naruto is a strong character but for the most part he is a one trick pony, he has to get you with a rasengan. While its a strong technique thats really all he uses and a ninja who i bet mastered a ton of justus isnt going down easily to an attack that has limitations.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 6, 2012)

Eikichi Onizuka said:


> What does any prove, that was a mechanism of talk no justu. Naruto is a strong character but for the most part he is a one trick pony, he has to get you with a rasengan. While its a strong technique thats really all he uses and a ninja who *i bet mastered a ton of justus* isnt going down easily to an attack that has limitations.



Please name those ton of jutsus so far I have only seen mokuton and darkness jutsu which would be irrelevant as Naruto is basically a lantern and has the best sensing.

Not to mention a clone with a "tiny bit" of what Naruto has now fodderized Hashirama's signature jutsu, not to mention that Naruto's life force in just KCM has shown to mees up with Mokuton.

Naruto has Bijuu roaring that can knock out talied beats, and a MULTI KILOMETER Bijuu Dama and of course blitz speed and of course basically limitless spam of clones with the ammount of chakra he wields now. There you have it, attacks deadlier than Rasengan.

All of this of course without considering Naruto just got chakra from 7 possibly 9 tailed beasts.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 6, 2012)

PDQ said:


> Hashirama could control *any* number of Bijuu like pets (he had at *minimum* 5 at one point, including Mito's Kurama).  That was the whole reason he was made Hokage in the first place.
> 
> It didn't require the crystal because he had multiple under his control and only one crystal.
> So forget 5 Bijuu powered Bijuudama, try 8 or 9.



I respond with this excellent post:




Sygurgh said:


> I’m probably repeating myself but I need a scan of Hashirama controlling a perfect Jinchuuriki of Naruto’s caliber.
> 
> Kurama is chained behind a stronger seal than the original one (“This is the Sage of the Six Paths [something]…”).
> Kurama claims that Naruto has some kind of relation to the Sage of the Six Paths (“Naruto is the Sage of the Six Paths [something…]”).
> ...



Oh and by the way to the burden of proof it is to you to prove that Hashirama could control 8 or 9 Bijuus AT THE SAME TIME as well as to also prove that Hashirama ever controlled Kyuubi in Mito to you know use it as a weapon becuase all evidence point that Kyuubi jings up to Naruto were basiclally used as store houses and just that and didnt harnessed the chakra.

Fuck is there even proof tha Hashirama could do something other than SUPRESS or nullify Bijuu chakra? Because as far as my knowledgement goes it has never been shown that he could control Bijuus as pets like Sharingan genjutsu does.

All it has ever been shown was that it can supress and nullify. Even if it can Madara could only control Kyuubi for a short period of time, yet you expect people to believe where there is zero proof that Hashirama could control 9 or 8 Bijuus at the same time?

You have a lot to prove.

You have to prove:

- Hashirama had "at least 5 Bijuus" at the same time
- That he could actually control not only supress Bijuus
- That he ever wielded the Kyuubi's power as a weapon
- That he could assuming you can prove number 2, control more than 1 Bijuu at the same time


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## PDQ (Mar 6, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> I respond with this excellent post:


You realize that's a post about controlling a Jinchuuriki and not Bijuu right?  Even the poster admits binding a wild Bijuu would be easier.


> You have a lot to prove.


Honestly, I didn't list the chapters because I thought it would be easy enough for you to remember, but I guess you can't.


> - Hashirama had "at least 5 Bijuus" at the same time
> - That he could control more than 1 Bijuu at the same time



I think you've may have misread the discrimination was administered by the ruling bodies of Konoha.

The segregation by the rulling bodies of Konoha. 
"Hashirama once had *a number of them* under his control.  Hashirama split them up among the *five* great ninja countries when he began peace talks with them to *balance* out the power."
If the power were "balanced" then then had to give an *equal* number to each.  Since there's *5 countries*, that's *at least 5 Bijuu*(or arguably since the strongest was in Mito, who he'd keep, he should've given 2 to each of the others for real balance).  Seeing as they didn't run wild, he controlled them *all of them at the same time*. 


> Fuck is there even proof tha Hashirama could do something other than SUPRESS or nullify Bijuu chakra? Because as far as my knowledgement goes it has never been shown that he could control Bijuus as pets like Sharingan genjutsu does.
> 
> All it has ever been shown was that it can supress and nullify.
> 
> - That he could actually control not only supress Bijuus



I think you've may have misread the discrimination was administered by the ruling bodies of Konoha.

The segregation by the rulling bodies of Konoha. 
"He was able to *bend* the bijuu to his own will"

I think you've may have misread the discrimination was administered by the ruling bodies of Konoha.

The segregation by the rulling bodies of Konoha. 
"The only ones who can be said to *truly be said to have controlled* the beasts are Shodai..."
Keep in mind, even Killer B was a *maybe*.  In other words, he could control them *at least as good as Killer B*


> Kyuubi jings up to Naruto were basiclally used as store houses and just that and didnt harnessed the chakra
> 
> - That he ever wielded the Kyuubi's power as a weapon


"He gained *control* of the 9 tails"

I think you've may have misread the discrimination was administered by the ruling bodies of Konoha.

The segregation by the rulling bodies of Konoha. 
"To *better aide* him" Mito sealed him because it would allow her to use the chakra for jutsu instead of just Bijuudama.  If it were just a storehouse, it wouldn't have aided him.
Of course, given that Hashirama was said to have been the* only one of the two* to have *fully controlled* Bijuu, then he was the one wielding that power.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

I don’t know if “controlled” can be taken literally given the unknown context. It could be that Hashirama simply put the demons in their place like badly behaved dogs. He can’t order them fetch the ball but he can make them sit the hell down.


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## PDQ (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> I don?t know if ?controlled? can be taken literally given the unknown context. It could be that Hashirama simply put the demons in their place like badly behaved dogs. He can?t order them fetch the ball but he can make them sit the hell down.


The two main translations of what Orochimaru said were:
"bent to his will"
"controlled to his liking"
I don't know anyone who'd describe a dog like that if they couldn't get it to fetch a ball.
Combine that with Danzo's comment on him and Madara being the ones to fully control Bijuu and when even Killer B's ability was put into question suggests it's *much* more likely he could get them to do whatever the hell he wanted.


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## Higuain (Mar 6, 2012)

Super bijuudama of Kurama would erase the size of the whole shinobi villages combined size. So yes, Naruto surepassed Hashirama. But Kishi is a troll, so in the next chapter we'll probably see that Hashirama could have ruind the whole world with one jutsu.


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For all we know, pure EMS Madara is equal to EMS Sasuke. And Sasuke is probably getting a power up to get to Biju Mode Naruto's level.
> 
> And Hashirama can't suppress Kurama's chakra without the crystal. Which again, Naruto _destroyed._



LOL WUT? 

EMS Madara >>> EMS Sasuke 
EMS Madara = Hashirama

Sasuke is leagues below EMS Madara and if he does get a power up he'll still be below Madara, like I said, Hashirama = Madara -- Madara >>> Sasuke & Naruto > Sasuke so Hashirama >>> Naruto 

Fact is the crystal is not required to suppress Bijuu chakra, it's Hashirama's life force that suppress's them, Yamato did it (Or attempted it) at the waterfall of truth, And Naruto physically suppressed it during his Pain fight (Or was it Minato?) either way it can be suppressed with out the crystal, so Hashirama >>> Naruto


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> LOL WUT?
> 
> EMS Madara >>> EMS Sasuke
> EMS Madara = Hashirama
> ...



Ignore the opposition’s arguments.
State your suppositions as facts.
???
PROFIT


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## PDQ (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> State your suppositions as facts.


That is a fact....

I think you've may have misread the discrimination was administered by the ruling bodies of Konoha.

The segregation by the rulling bodies of Konoha. 

He has the same seal on his hand even though the crystal is long gone saying "I'll hold him back"


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

PDQ said:


> That is a fact....
> Link removed
> 
> He has the same seal on his hand even though the crystal is long gone saying "I'll hold him back"



?and?
This proves what exactly?


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## DoflaMihawk (Mar 6, 2012)

Nobody will surpass Hashirama IMO, except Edo Madarama.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Then why do you think Hashirama is stronger than Naruto?



I have already explained to you why I think Naruto is weaker than shodai. We had this long conversation aout powerscaling



jacamo said:


> the Kyubi alone is more powerful than EMS Madara, and i dont care if you think the Kyubi "is part of Madara's power".... its clearly illogical to think its fair to include the Kyubi in a comparison between EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara



We are not comparing Madara's EMS vs. Sasuke's EMS. We are comparing Uchiha Madara with EMS and Sasuke with EMS. However, when he had EMS, Madara also had a summon called kyuubi. Sasuke does not have that summon. So, Uchiha Madara is stronger than Sasuke. Whether Sasuke's EMS is stronger than Madara's EMS becomes irrelevant because kyuubi more than makes up for that difference. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto has the most versatile ninjutsu in the manga, the Rasengan. Which he has several variants with more versatility.



 Mokuton is the most versatile jutsu in the manga. It has more variants than rasengan and more application. You can use it for defense, offense and support. Heck, there is very little mokuton can't do



JCRUYFF said:


> Madara don`t even used his 3 MS Ocular Jutsus against Hashirama in the Battle of VOTE maybe because he was controlling the kyuubi , Hashirama to win against Madara was necessary take over the control of the Kyuubi from Madara



You do know that we have seen a picture of that battle and both Madara and the kyuubi were attacking Hashirama, right? Plus, when Tobi controlled the kyuubi, he was able to still fight himself



Sygurgh said:


> I?m probably repeating myself but I need a scan of Hashirama controlling a perfect Jinchuuriki of Naruto?s caliber.



I have the scan for you but before I show it to you, show me a scan of a perfect jinchiruuki resisting mokuton of Hashirama's caliber



Sygurgh said:


> Kurama is chained behind a stronger seal than the original one (?This is the Sage of the Six Paths [something]??).
> Kurama claims that Naruto has some kind of relation to the Sage of the Six Paths (?Naruto is the Sage of the Six Paths [something?]?).
> Madara, one of the most knowledgeable characters of the manga, is perplexed before Naruto?s abilities (?What is Naruto??)
> Naruto?s chakra has some kind of effect on Mokuton (mutated trees and Zetsu).
> ...



1. A stronger seal does not mean shit. Unless said seal is said to be mokuton resistant, it is of no use
2. Having a relation with the RS don't mean shit either
3. Madara was not perplexed by Naruto's abilities. That was Tobi. Tobi only exprerssed surprise because Naruto was stronger than he thought. He still thinks Naruto is nothing compared to him though
4. Actually the burden of proof is on you since the manga has never said that perfect jinchiruki are an exception to mokuton control. You are the one introducing said exception, so the burden of proof is on you




Orochibuto said:


> Kyuubi jings up to Naruto were basiclally used as store houses and just that and didnt harnessed the chakra.



How do you think Mito achieved emotion sensing if she was not harnessing the kyuubi chakra up to KCM



Orochibuto said:


> Fuck is there even proof tha Hashirama could do something other than SUPRESS or nullify Bijuu chakra? Because as far as my knowledgement goes it has never been shown that he could control Bijuus as pets like Sharingan genjutsu does.



It has been stated that he could bend them to his will. It has been stated that a bijuu facing him will follow the order given to it



Orochibuto said:


> - Hashirama had "at least 5 Bijuus" at the same time



Hashirama had several bijuu. There are 4 great villages and a medium village with a bijuu (ex Konoha). Math is simple



Orochibuto said:


> - That he could actually control not only supress Bijuus



1. Hashirama could bend bijuu to his will
2. A bijuu facing him will follow the order given to it according to the databook
3. Bijuu manipulating skills are part of the reason Hashirama was the strongest according to the databook



Sygurgh said:


> I don?t know if ?controlled? can be taken literally given the unknown context. It could be that Hashirama simply put the demons in their place like badly behaved dogs. He can?t order them fetch the ball but he can make them sit the hell down.



I disagree. The evidence suggests otherwise. Mokuton does more than just tell bijuu to sit the freak down. If mokuton could only supress bijuu, a thing Kushina could do with kyuubi, then Kushina should be counted among those with perfect control over bijuu but she was not. Clearly, there was more to mokuton. The fact that the databook says that the reason Hashirama was without equal was because of (1) mokuton and (2) bijuu manipulating skills clearly indicates that bijuu manipulating skills are a different skill set


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## Ghost (Mar 6, 2012)

Hashirama has no feats to control a Perfect Jinchuuriki.


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## PDQ (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> ?and?
> This proves what exactly?



Exactly what you bolded in what you quoted...


> Fact is the crystal is not required to suppress Bijuu chakra


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Saikyou said:


> Hashirama has no feats to control a Perfect Jinchuuriki.



And a perfect jinchiruuki has a feat of resisting Hashirama's control? 

This is a lame argument.


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Ignore the opposition?s arguments.
> State your suppositions as facts.
> ???
> PROFIT



Er maybe you should actually read the manga instead of just looking at the pretty pictures.

Theres been three occasions (I can think of) were there the crystal has not been required to suppress the Kyuubi:

1. Sasuke forcefully suppressed it and the beginning of pt 2
2. Naruto (Or Minato?) forcefully suppressed it during the Pain fight 
3. Yamato was going to suppress it at the waterfall of truth 

Just because the data book which still says Tobi is Madara btw says it's needed doesn't make it fact, Manga > Databook therefore Hashirama >>> Naruto


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> And a perfect jinchiruuki has a feat of resisting Hashirama's control?
> 
> This is a lame argument.



You’re saying that he can.
I’m saying that it can be one way or the other.
Hashirama has never suppressed someone like Naruto, so you can’t affirm that he would be able to.



Ezekial said:


> Er maybe you should actually read the manga instead of just looking at the pretty pictures.
> 
> Theres been three occasions (I can think of) were there the crystal has not been required to suppress the Kyuubi:
> 
> ...



1. Naruto was dead on his feet and resisting the Kyuubi.
2. Naruto is the jailor and Minato the architect behind the seal. This just proves that Minato is a master in his craft.
3. Naruto was trying to resist and Yamato has never suppressed a full Kyuubi.

Besides, you and I are talking about different things. I’m not saying that Hashirama can’t use his suppression abilities without the crystal; I’m talking about his ability to suppress Naruto post-Rikudō transformation, with the new seal, new chakra, and full cooperation.


----------



## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> You?re saying that he can.
> I?m saying that it can be one way or the other.
> Hashirama has never suppressed someone like Naruto, so you can?t affirm that he would be able to.
> 
> ...



It's still Kyuubi chakra is it not? You know you're wrong so you're just pointing out stupid statements... So i'll put it like this:

Hashirama = Madara > Tobi, and Tobi > Kakashi, Gai, Naruto and Bee, two of which are perfect Jin, considering Tobi is controlling several bijuu and not really fighting he's still trolling them and Tobi does not have Motukon he's still > Kakashi, Gai, Naruto and Bee


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> It's still Kyuubi chakra is it not? You know you're wrong so you're just pointing out stupid statements... So i'll put it like this:
> 
> Hashirama = Madara > Tobi, and Tobi > Kakashi, Gai, Naruto and Bee, two of which are perfect Jin, considering Tobi is controlling several bijuu and not really fighting he's still trolling them and Tobi does not have Motukon he's still > Kakashi, Gai, Naruto and Bee



So you don?t have any argument.
Concession accepted then?


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> You?re saying that he can.
> I?m saying that it can be one way or the other.
> Hashirama has never suppressed someone like Naruto, so you can?t affirm that he would be able to.



Hashirama is said to control jinchiruuki, that is the reason he was made hokage in the first place. There is no exception made for perfect jinchiruuki. So, I will make create one arbitrarily. Hashirama has perfect control over bijuu if a jinchiruuki has perfect control too, I don't see logically why it should change anything about Hashirama's power. Unless you can give a logical reason as to why you doubt he would control a perfect jin, it is logical to assume that he can


----------



## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> So you don?t have any argument.
> Concession accepted then?



Listen, you're just a troll, i've proved that Kyuubi chakra can be suppressed with out the crystal, you're "argument" that Naruto is now a perfect Jin is irrelevant, IT'S STILL KYUUBI CHAKRA. Troll, you're negged so stop making stuff up and do some research.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Hashirama is said to control jinchiruuki, that is the reason he was made hokage in the first place. There is no exception made for perfect jinchiruuki. So, I will make create one arbitrarily. Hashirama has perfect control over bijuu if a jinchiruuki has perfect control too, I don't see logically why it should change anything about Hashirama's power. Unless you can give a logical reason as to why you doubt he would control a perfect jin, it is logical to assume that he can



I’ll ask you this then.
If he could control Jinchūriki so completely, why did he need the necklace for?
Besides, there is a world difference between Jinchūriki and perfect Jinchūriki, and Naruto with the markings and strange chakra seems to be a different beast. I’m willing to bet that he is also the first to possess the Sage of the Six Paths’ seal.
You also ignored my point about Naruto’s chakra reaction with Mokuton, transforming the Zetsu army into trees.
So again, with so many unknown factors, how can you just assume that Hashirama’s suppression would work?



Ezekial said:


> Listen, you're just a troll, i've proved that Kyuubi chakra can be suppressed with out the crystal, you're "argument" that Naruto is now a perfect Jin is irrelevant, IT'S STILL KYUUBI CHAKRA. Troll, you're negged so stop making stuff up and do some research.


~snip~


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Then I?ll rep you back for being a lousy debater. Calling others trolls because you don?t have the mental capacity to understand logical arguments is your failing.



Jesus Christ what the hell are you on about? The thread is titled "Current Naruto has surpassed Hashirama." and I stated this was wrong the posted 3 points proving I was right, you have no evidence to back up what you're saying, instead you're posting stuff you think are facts when infact you made them up, then you post insults because you know you're wrong, just stop. 

I'll summarise my point -- THE CRYSTAL IS NOT REQUIRED THUS HASHIRAMA >>> NARUTO! got it yet?

P.S revenge negging is against the rules, so good luck.


----------



## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Jesus Christ what the hell are you on about? The thread is titled "Current Naruto has surpassed Hashirama." and I stated this was wrong the posted 3 points proving I was right, you have no evidence to back up what you're saying, instead you're posting stuff you think are facts when infact you made them up, then you post insults because you know you're wrong, just stop.
> 
> I'll summarise my point -- THE CRYSTAL IS NOT REQUIRED THUS HASHIRAMA >>> NARUTO! got it yet?
> 
> P.S revenge negging is against the rules, so good luck.



It’s not a revenge neg. I’m perfectly willing to accept negs when they are justified. But you were disrespectful, called me a troll and negged me for no reason other than disagreeing with your argument. Should have I rolled the red carpet? You entirely deserved your neg.

Your entire point is that is that Hashirama doesn’t need the necklace to suppress Jinchuuriki. I agree. But then, why create the necklace? That’s because his ability to supress Jinchuuriki isn’t perfect. So you have Hashirama who doesn’t have perfect suppression ability, and you claim that he can suppress a perfect Jinchuuriki, with unique characteristics, the strongest seal in existence, and a chakra which causes weird reactions when in contact with Mokuton. You haven’t refuted any of my points.


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## Ghost (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> And a perfect jinchiruuki has a feat of resisting Hashirama's control?
> 
> This is a lame argument.



No it's not. It proves that Hashirama wouldn't be able to control Kurama inside Naruto. It has been said that Perfect Jinchuuriki is way different than just a Bijuu.


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Your entire point is that is that Hashirama doesn?t need the necklace to suppress Jinchuuriki. I agree.



So now you agree? But then still go on to contradict your self by saying the crystal is needed? Troll indeed.



Sygurgh said:


> That?s because his ability to supress Jinchuuriki isn?t perfect.


 There you go again making stuff up.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> So now you agree? But then still go on to contradict your self by saying the crystal is needed? Troll indeed.
> 
> There you go again making stuff up.



I never disagreed that Hashirama could suppress Jinchuuriki without the necklace. But why would he create something he wouldn’t need? He created the necklace to help him control Jinchuuriki. Thus, it helps him control Jinchuuriki. Thus we have reasons to suspect that his control isn’t perfect…

Now if you add the other elements I mentioned in my previous post, and we have enough unknown elements to doubt that he can suppress Naruto.

If I could neg you again for calling me a troll (again), I would.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> I?ll ask you this then.
> If he could control Jinchūriki so completely, why did he need the necklace for?



Again, you are confused. The crystal does not control bijuu. It is shodai's chakra that does. The crystal responds to his chakra, making it easier to Tenzou to control bijuu. Shodai himself had multiple bijuu under his control, he could not have kept them all under control with one crystal



Sygurgh said:


> Besides, there is a world difference between Jinchūriki and perfect Jinchūriki,



And there is a world of difference between Tenzou and Hashirama who had perfect control over jinchiruukis as well as bijuu



Sygurgh said:


> and Naruto with the markings and strange chakra seems to be a different beast. I?m willing to bet that he is also the first to possess the Sage of the Six Paths? seal.



Irrelevant



Sygurgh said:


> You also ignored my point about Naruto?s chakra reaction with Mokuton, transforming the Zetsu army into trees.
> So again, with so many unknown factors, how can you just assume that Hashirama?s suppression would work?



Naruto's KCM matures the mokuton. If anyhting it should make it easier to be controlled


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

I never said that the crystal itself could control Jinchūriki. I’m a bit tired of people trying to put words into my mouth. The key point in your reply is *easier* to control. Calling my points irrelevant without refuting them is more like conceding than refuting. Now, as for your last point, who the hell can say if Naruto’s strange reaction to Mokuton doesn’t reduce its effectiveness as a weapon against him? No one can tell how it works and you’re just extrapolating.


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## rohanshah1 (Mar 6, 2012)

Naruto can never be stronger than hashirama.... it can suppress naruto's kyuubi chakra....


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> never disagreed that Hashirama could suppress Jinchuuriki without the necklace. But why would he create something he wouldn’t need? He created the necklace to help him control Jinchuuriki.


 contradicting your self again, please stop replying to me you know you're wrong
~snip~


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> I never said that the crystal itself could control Jinchūriki. I?m a bit tired of people trying to put words into my mouth.



You said Hashirama's control was not perfect without the crystal. Big surprise people have to show you the crystal really has no role in controlling bijuu except as a conductor of Hashirama's chakra  



Sygurgh said:


> The key point in your reply is *easier* to control.



Easier for Tenzou, who is a weak copy



Sygurgh said:


> Calling my points irrelevant without refuting them is more like conceding than refuting.



Calling a ramble about Naruto's marking and your guess about him being the first since RS irrelevant is generous. All that shit has no bearing on bijuu control 



Sygurgh said:


> Now, as for your last point, who the hell can say if Naruto?s strange reaction to Mokuton doesn?t reduce its effectiveness as a weapon against him? No one can tell how it works and you?re just extrapolating.



Mature trees have more potency than less mature ones.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> contradicting your self again, please stop replying to me you know you're wrong
> Cool story troll, want a cookie?



I never contradicted myself in this entire thread. If I did, you?re welcome to post said contradictions, without manipulating the information by selecting misleading segments of my post. Until you do, your words and insults are worthless. I won?t bother responding to your insults, I?m long passed the schoolyard.


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## Chappz316 (Mar 6, 2012)

Okay guys, didn't see such an interesting conversation going on, time for me to step in. 

Hashirama needed Mito to seal the kyuubi so he could deal with madara.  naruto can make an SM clone and 6 KCM V1 clones and be in bijuu mode. 

I think this means Naruto tops Hashirama.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> You said Hashirama's control was not perfect without the crystal. Big surprise people have to show you the crystal really has no role in controlling bijuu except as a conductor of Hashirama's chakra
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said: “Thus we have reasons to *suspect* that his control isn’t perfect…”
I said that the crystal “helped”.
I didn’t say the crystal “controlled”.
You haven’t shown me anything.
You’re just facepalming in the wind (very mature, by the way).

I said Naruto is a mountain of unknown factors which I listed.
Unknown factors which could or not have an influence over Hashirama’s control. Hashirama has NEVER controlled someone like Naruto, who is quite the unique Jinchuuriki. You’re simply ASSUMING things.

I agree that mature trees have more potency than less mature ones.
But you’re forgetting that Hashirama hasn’t matured those trees, it was Naruto.
Naruto has an influence over the growth of the trees.
You have NO PROOF that Naruto’s chakra (which influences the trees to an extent) doesn’t HINDER the trees’ effectiveness as a weapon against Naruto.


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## gaseoussnake (Mar 6, 2012)

Chappz316 said:


> Okay guys, didn't see such an interesting conversation going on, time for me to step in.
> 
> Hashirama needed Mito to seal the kyuubi so he could deal with madara.  naruto can make an SM clone and 6 KCM V1 clones and be in bijuu mode.
> 
> I think this means Naruto tops Hashirama.



Seriously it is this simple. All this talk of Hashirama negating Kurama's chakra is baseless considering the fact that Edo Tensei'd Madara couldn't even summon the Kyuubi.

Another important thing is that Naruto's new chakra actually destabilizes Mokuton. Chances are Mokuton will totally be useless against Naruto.


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> I never contradicted myself in this entire thread. If I did, you?re welcome to post said contradictions, without manipulating the information by selecting misleading segments of my post. Until you do, your words and insults are worthless. I won?t bother responding to your insults, I?m long passed the schoolyard.



I did post them, you just never quoted them, and no i'm not "manipulating the information by selecting misleading segments of my post." I'm quoting full sentences, Troll is not an insult BTW it's an accurate representation of you, oh and have you not noticed everyone else disagreeing with you? The fact is you're wrong and you do keep contradicting your self... I've posted countless examples of why you are wrong and so have others yet you persist, you've also gone way off topic, and now i'm just repeating my self because you still dont get it.

1. HASHIRAMA >>> NARUTO 
2. Hashirama can suppress Kyuubi chakra without the crystal


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

gaseoussnake said:


> Seriously it is this simple. All this talk of Hashirama negating Kurama chakra is baseless considering the fact that Madara couldn't even summon the Kyuubi.
> 
> Another important thing is that Naruto's new chakra actually destabilizes Mokuton. Chances are Mokuton will totally be useless against Naruto.



Naruto's chakra helps motukon, it makes it grow and therefore makes it stronger.

I have no idea what Madara not being able to summon it has to do with this thread but whatever


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Naruto's chakra helps motukon, it makes it grow and therefore makes it stronger.


It makes Mokuton grow out of control, actually. Its why he can kill Zetsu Clones with just a kick.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> I did post them, you just never quoted them, and no i'm not "manipulating the information by selecting misleading segments of my post." I'm quoting full sentences, Troll is not an insult BTW it's an accurate representation of you, oh and have you not noticed everyone else disagreeing with you? The fact is you're wrong and you do keep contradicting your self... I've posted countless examples of why you are wrong and so have others yet you persist, you've also gone way off topic, and now i'm just repeating my self because you still dont get it.
> 
> 1. HASHIRAMA >>> NARUTO
> 2. Hashirama can suppress Kyuubi chakra without the crystal



1. You’ve not posted a single one of my supposed contradictions.

2. Being called a troll by you is a praise. 

3. Two people disagreeing (you and Senjuguy) with me constitute everyone? Then what about the others who are agreeing with me but are not as long-winded as us, do they not constitute everyone too? You’re saying nonsense again.

4. I want your PROOF that Hashirama can suppress Naruto with all the unknown factors which I have LISTED, which you have NOT REFUTED, otherwise your opinion is POINTLESS.


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## Chappz316 (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> I did post them, you just never quoted them, and no i'm not "manipulating the information by selecting misleading segments of my post." I'm quoting full sentences, Troll is not an insult BTW it's an accurate representation of you, oh and have you not noticed everyone else disagreeing with you? The fact is you're wrong and you do keep contradicting your self... I've posted countless examples of why you are wrong and so have others yet you persist, you've also gone way off topic, and now i'm just repeating my self because you still dont get it.
> 
> 1. HASHIRAMA >>> NARUTO
> 2. Hashirama can suppress Kyuubi chakra without the crystal



Not everyone is disagreeing with him, and maybe you should address my post.



Ezekial said:


> Naruto's chakra helps motukon, it makes it grow and therefore makes it stronger.
> 
> I have no idea what Madara not being able to summon it has to do with this thread but whatever



Did Naruto make Zetsu stronger as he buried a rasengan in it? It make's trees grow from wood, it doesnt make the jutsu more effective or help it in any way, it might any hamper any potential mokutun, weighing it down or rooting it in place.

If Madara cannot summon the kyuubi outside of a sealed environment, then neither can Hashi, so kyuubi remains safely under naruto's control.


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It makes Mokuton grow out of control, actually. Its why he can kill Zetsu Clones with just a kick.



No. it makes it mature a grow larger.


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## gaseoussnake (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Naruto's chakra helps motukon, it makes it grow and therefore makes it stronger.
> 
> I have no idea what Madara not being able to summon it has to do with this thread but whatever



Naruto's chakra destabilizes Mokuton. The moment Mokuton comes into contact with Naruto's chakra it becomes your average normal garden variety tree. The Zetsu's turned into trees when they come into contact with Naruto's chakra.

Madara not being able to summon the Kyuubi means that Naruto's new seal offers a form of protection from those that are capable of manipulating, suppressing and controlling the Kyuubi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> No. it makes it mature a grow larger.


He's killed Zetsu Clones with a kick or a punch. He didn't make them grow mature or larger, he outright killed them by forcing their Senju Cells to grow at a rate out of their control. Look at what happened with Danzo when Senju Cells go out of control.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Saikyou said:


> No it's not. It proves that Hashirama wouldn't be able to control Kurama inside Naruto. It has been said that Perfect Jinchuuriki is way different than just a Bijuu.



1. Show me where it was said that a PERFECT jinchiruuki is WAY DIFFERENT THAN JUST A BIJUU
2. You did not prove shit. You asked for proof. You asked for a panel and I turned around and asked you for a panel to demonstrate how ludicrous your thought process was



Sygurgh said:


> I said: ?Thus we have reasons to *suspect* that his control isn?t perfect??
> I said that the crystal ?helped?.
> I didn?t say the crystal ?controlled?.
> You haven?t shown me anything.
> You?re just facepalming in the wind (very mature, by the way).



1. The crystal helps Yamato not Hashirama. 
2. One facepalm was generous again since your argument is asinine. You say Hashirama created the crystal to help him control bijuu. That makes zero sense. The crystal itslef does not help Hashirama since it is his chakra that controls the bijuu. It helps Tenzou though because both the crystal and Tenzou have Hashirama's chakra and so, his jutsu becomes more potent




Sygurgh said:


> I said Naruto is a mountain of unknown factors which I listed.
> Unknown factors which could or not have an influence over Hashirama?s control. Hashirama has NEVER controlled someone like Naruto, who is quite the unique Jinchuuriki. You?re simply ASSUMING things.



I am not assuming any thing. I am going with the author's statements. Hashiramam can control jinchiruukis and Naruto is a jinchiruuki. All the new seals he has are the product of him being a jinchiruuki, exactly that thing that Hashirama controls



Sygurgh said:


> I agree that mature trees have more potency than less mature ones.
> But you?re forgetting that Hashirama hasn?t matured those trees, it was Naruto.



Dude. Naruto does not mature the trees. Those trees are created with yang release. Naruto has very strong yang release. The trees react to the yang release



Sygurgh said:


> Naruto has an influence over the growth of the trees.
> You have NO PROOF that Naruto?s chakra (which influences the trees to an extent) doesn?t HINDER the trees? effectiveness as a weapon against Naruto.



You simply do not understand it. Yang release matures the trees because they are yang chakra created. This should make them more potent



gaseoussnake said:


> Seriously it is this simple. All this talk of Hashirama negating Kurama's chakra is baseless considering the fact that Edo Tensei'd Madara couldn't even summon the Kyuubi.



You are confusing matters here though. Kyuubi under a seal cannot be summoned regarless of the level of control of the jinchiruuki. Kushina was not a perfect jinchiruuki but Tobi had to wait until the seal was weak to summon kyuubi. This has nothing to do with mokuton which has been shown to supress kyuubi chakra when Naruto is in control and when kyuubi is in control




gaseoussnake said:


> Another important thing is that Naruto's new chakra actually destabilizes Mokuton. Chances are Mokuton will totally be useless against Naruto.



It does not destabilize mokuton. It makes mokuton trees mature, which means they are even more potent


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Chappz316 said:


> If Madara cannot summon the kyuubi outside of a sealed environment, then neither can Hashi, so kyuubi remains safely under naruto's control.


What are you on about, who said anything about Hashirama summoning it?



Chappz316 said:


> Did Naruto make Zetsu stronger as he buried a rasengan in it?


 Is Zetsu, one of Hashirama's jutsu?



Chappz316 said:


> it might any hamper any potential mokutun, weighing it down or rooting it in place.


Irrelevant, it may make it stronger


----------



## αce (Mar 6, 2012)

In my opinion, this entire arc is about Naruto reaching Hashirama level and Sasuke reaching EMS Madara level.

Just my two cents.


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## Chappz316 (Mar 6, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> What are you on about, who said anything about Hashirama summoning it?
> 
> Is Zetsu, one of Hashirama's jutsu?
> 
> Irrelevant, it may make it stronger



1. I was stating why the other poster may have mentioned Madara trying to summon kyuubi, i didn't bring it up myself.

2. No, but zetsu is a mokutun entity.

3. So, if it may make it stronger, and it may make it weaker, we should go with what you think is right? 

So you dealt with the second half of my post, now deal with the first half.


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Chappz316 said:


> So you dealt with the second half of my post, now deal with the first half.



I really dont care what the first part was, the trolls have drained me


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## gaseoussnake (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> It does not destabilize mokuton. It makes mokuton trees mature, which means they are even more potent



Actually Naruto's chakra doesn't just increase the potency of Mokuton it simply turns the Mokuton into normal trees. An example of this effect is when Naruto fought all those Zetsus.


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## αce (Mar 6, 2012)

Correction, the Kyuubi's chakra does that.
But yeah, I get your point.


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## gaseoussnake (Mar 6, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Correction, the Kyuubi's chakra does that.
> But yeah, I get your point.



You say Kyuubi I say Narutoma, Kyurato, etc(You get the point). Naruto and Kyuubi have been a single entity since he was born...hence the term jinchiruki.


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## Milliardo (Mar 6, 2012)

i don't think naruto is quite there just yet.. probably towards the end of the arc naruto will be equal to or greater than the 1st hokage..

likewise with sasuke.. i don't think he has surpassed ems madara just yet. he only just got the eyes.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Show me where it was said that a PERFECT jinchiruuki is WAY DIFFERENT THAN JUST A BIJUU
> 2. You did not prove shit. You asked for proof. You asked for a panel and I turned around and asked you for a panel to demonstrate how ludicrous your thought process was



1. You’re conscious of what you’re asking? Everyone agrees that Jinchūriki are more effective than the demons by themselves. They’re kept under seals, with Naruto’s behind the strongest one to date. You're asking me to prove that the sky is blue.

2. You didn't prove anything either. I won’t bother saying the same things again and again only to be ignored again and again. The difference between you and me is that you deal with (falsely assumed) absolutes, while I deal with maybes. I posted a list of four or something circumstances that differentiate Naruto from the regular Jinchūriki and could prevent Hashirama from assuming control. In exchange you’re ignoring my points and put Naruto on the same pedestal as every other Jinchūriki out there, when everything points to the fact that he is special even amongst Jinchūriki.



Senjuclan said:


> 1. The crystal helps Yamato not Hashirama.
> 2. One facepalm was generous again since your argument is asinine. You say Hashirama created the crystal to help him control bijuu. That makes zero sense. The crystal itslef does not help Hashirama since it is his chakra that controls the bijuu. It helps Tenzou though because both the crystal and Tenzou have Hashirama's chakra and so, his jutsu becomes more potent



Hashirama’s ability is “*enhanced*” by the necklace. I’ll let you seek a dictionary.



Senjuclan said:


> I am not assuming any thing. I am going with the author's statements. Hashiramam can control jinchiruukis and Naruto is a jinchiruuki. All the new seals he has are the product of him being a jinchiruuki, exactly that thing that Hashirama controls



You’re assuming that every Jinchūriki is the same. I’ll extrapolate just a little bit and say that if someone has the ability to control flames, it must mean that they can control the sun, after all the sun is just a giant fireball, right? I know this example is ridiculous but it’s meant to be. There are scales and circumstances to control.



Senjuclan said:


> Dude. Naruto does not mature the trees. Those trees are created with yang release. Naruto has very strong yang release. The trees react to the yang release
> 
> You simply do not understand it. Yang release matures the trees because they are yang chakra created. This should make them more potent



I really don’t know about this one? How about a quote from the manga, databook or interview? Something to prove that the Mokuton isn’t destabilized, even if it is by the Yang Release instead of a peculiar ability.


----------



## αce (Mar 6, 2012)

gaseoussnake said:


> You say Kyuubi I say Narutoma, Kyurato, etc(You get the point). Naruto and Kyuubi have been a single entity since he was born...hence the term jinchiruki.



Actually, it's been one entity sealed within another. They only became one recently, which is why the latest power up is so strong.

The life force is still attributable to the Kyuubi's chakra, which developed long before Naruto was born.


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

gaseoussnake said:


> Actually Naruto's chakra doesn't just increase the potency of Mokuton it simply turns the Mokuton into normal trees. An example of this effect is when Naruto fought all those Zetsus.



Mokuton is wood release. It creates normal trees. I am not sure what you are talking about. Sometimes the user can create other wood material but it simple wood people see everyday. The trees around Konoha. Some of the houses in Konoha, they are all mokuton



Sygurgh said:


> 1. You?re conscious of what you?re asking? Everyone agrees that Jinchūriki are more effective than the demons by themselves. They?re kept under seals, with Naruto?s behind the strongest one to date. You're asking me to prove that the sky is blue.



1. Is your handle Saikyou? That post was to him not you
2. He said this "*It has been said* *that Perfect Jinchuuriki* is way different than just a Bijuu." I don't remember that ever been said
3. When I facepalm you, you will cry again even though you deserve it? 




Sygurgh said:


> 2. You didn't prove anything either. I won?t bother saying the same things again and again only to be ignored again and again.



   Is your name Saikyou? Did you ask for a panel? 



Sygurgh said:


> Hashirama?s ability is ?*enhanced*? by the necklace. I?ll let you seek a dictionary.



Maybe you need the dictionary not me. I know what the verb enhance is. Hashirama's ability is not enhanced by the necklace either. The necklace simply responds to Hashirama's chakra, which makes it easier for Tenzou. I will let you seek this manga known as Naruto and read it



Sygurgh said:


> You?re assuming that every Jinchūriki is the same. I?ll extrapolate just a little bit and say that if someone has the ability to control flames, it must mean that he can control the sun, after all the sun is just a giant fireball, right?



That is the silliest example ever. The sun is a different entity all together. Bijuu are entities of the same nature and kyuubi is the strongest of them all. So, if someone controls the sun, he can control lesser stars



Sygurgh said:


> I really don?t know about this one? How about a quote from the manga, databook or interview? Something to prove that the Mokuton isn?t destabilized, even if it is by the Yang Release.



I won't quote shit. Read the freaking manga dude.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

It’s tiring dealing with immature people. I’ll let you children play your little backyard fights and petty insults. When you’re right, you correct people and post proofs. When you’re wrong, you concede. You don’t stick to your guns and belittle the opposition without bringing anything to the conversation. Forgetting your manners because you’re hiding behind a computer doesn’t make you strong. I’ll leave you guys to it, this debate is no longer amusing.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> It?s tiring dealing with immature people. I?ll let you children play your little backyard fights and petty insults. When you?re right, you correct people and post proofs. When you?re wrong, you concede. You don?t stick to your guns and belittle the opposition without bringing anything to the conversation. Forgetting your manners because you?re hiding behind a computer doesn?t make you strong. I?ll leave you guys to it, this debate is no longer amusing.



Sure. Feigning indignation and running away is very mature. Next time before you feign indignation, make sure that you bother reading posts to see if they are meant for you before you react. Also, I was generous in giving you a couple of facepalm. Good bye now


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## Ezekial (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> It?s tiring dealing with immature people. I?ll let you children play your little backyard fights and petty insults. When you?re right, you correct people and post proofs. When you?re wrong, you concede. You don?t stick to your guns and belittle the opposition without bringing anything to the conversation. Forgetting your manners because you?re hiding behind a computer doesn?t make you strong. I?ll leave you guys to it, this debate is no longer amusing.



You sir are deranged, the original argument was this "Current Naruto has surpassed Hashirama" I then said "No, because Hashirama can suppress Kyuubi chakra" then you said "No, the crystal is needed" Then I posted 3 clear examples of when the Kyuubi's chakra was forcefully suppressed... It's pointless to keep arguing, I posted a statement then backed it up with manga fact, you took an opinion and backed it up with stuff you made up, you've gone way off topic and TBH I really dont think you have any idea what your talking about


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## gaseoussnake (Mar 6, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Actually, it's been one entity sealed within another. They only became one recently, which is why the latest power up is so strong.



The Bijuu's are treated as tools. The entire point of creating Jinchiruuki's is to harness the power of the Bijuu. It is a Master and Slave relationship. The use of seals help the Jinchirruki's (Masters) request or forcefully drain chakra from the Bijuu's.

Some Jinchiruuki's like Naruto and Killer Bee form a more balanced relationship whereby both parties (Master and Slave) respect one another. This leads to a more effective and efficient partnership which greatly increases the synergistic output/power of the Jinchiruki's.

What I am trying to say in a round about way is whether the Jinchirukis have full cooperation from their bijuus or not they are still considered as a single entity. 



♠Ace♠ said:


> The life force is still attributable to the Kyuubi's chakra, which developed long before Naruto was born.



I am not sure the life force can be attributed to the Kyuubi considering that at no point in time have we seen the kyuubis chakra reacting the way it does now. In my opinion I think the new chakra reacts the way it does as a result of  Naruto's new seal and his ancestry.


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## gaseoussnake (Mar 6, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Mokuton is wood release. It creates normal trees. I am not sure what you are talking about. Sometimes the user can create other wood material but it simple wood people see everyday. The trees around Konoha. Some of the houses in Konoha, they are all mokuton



What I mean by Naruto's chakra destabilizing Mokuton is that it immediately turns it into a *dormant** normal tree*. Once again going back to my example with the Zetsu's...the moment they came in contact with Naruto's chakra they immediately reverted back to their natural form (trees). 

Hashirama using Mokuton on Naruto might be futile because Naruto's chakra has the immediate effect of rooting down/morphing/turning the Mokuton into natural wood.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 6, 2012)

Substantial arguments there OP. Library needs more threads like these.


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## Sygurgh (Mar 6, 2012)

I said I won’t argument again, but I’ll reply against personal insults.

Ezekial, you’ve not read my answers, you’re putting words in my mouth that I have never said, and answering to something I never said, which is totally pointless. Of course I’m outside the subject. I NEVER said the crystal was needed. I repeated it ONCE, TWICE, and this is the THIRD time I’m correcting you. I don’t even know why I’m bothering. The list I made I manga fact. Hashirama has at no point in time showed the ability to suppress someone of Naruto’s caliber with his own unique abilities. Everything I say or you say is hypothesis. We’re putting hypothesis against one another. You’re calling me deranged? What are you, twelve?

Senjuclan, I’m not feigning indignation. Naruto is a manga, which I read for fun. It’s doesn’t concern important matters the likes of morals, laws or politics. I’m debating for fun. Facepalms, personal attacks, condescension doesn’t make for a fun ambiance, which makes the whole point of debating in this thread totally pointless, no running away involved. You think this is some kind of battle where one side must triumph over one another. I see it as a discussion. Shouldn’t you put your anger into something more constructive?


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> I said I won’t argument again, but I’ll reply against personal insults.



Just to be clear it's "won't argue again" not won't argument again 




Sygurgh said:


> Senjuclan, I’m not feigning indignation. Naruto is a manga, which I read for fun. It’s doesn’t concern important matters the likes of morals, laws or politics. I’m debating for fun. Facepalms, personal attacks, condescension doesn’t make for a fun ambiance, which makes the whole point of debating in this thread totally pointless, no running away involved.



Condescension is not fun unless you do it, right? Should I quote you?



Sygurgh said:


> What are you, twelve?





Sygurgh said:


> It’s tiring dealing with immature people. I’ll let you children play your little backyard fights. Forgetting your manners because you’re hiding behind a computer doesn’t make you strong.




 Talking to other people that way sure makes for a fun ambiance. GTFO



Sygurgh said:


> You think this is some kind of battle where one side must triumph over one another. I see it as a discussion. Shouldn’t you put your anger into something more constructive?



I put my anger in EVERYTHING I do.


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