# Justice (Guilty Gear) vs. LordGenome (TTGL)



## NightmareCinema (Jan 5, 2015)

This is LordGenome before the time-skip.

Scenario 1: LordGenome is on foot
Scenario 2: LordGenome gets Lazengann

Speed equalized.

How does this go?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 5, 2015)

Which version of LordGenome?
Because resurrected LG is HUGE and can sacrifice himself to convert Big Bang level energies.
He's most likely also faster though it's difficult to tell due to size.
although given Justice's limited range and unlikelyhood for MFTL travel it would be lopsided regardless.


On the other hand Justice is relativiatic to superluminal with possinly MFTL reactions.
Her firepower is also in the exaton range, at least. And possibly anywhere up to star system level.
Pre-timeskip LG won't be able to match her, I'm afraid.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 5, 2015)

Just out of curiosity willy, where does the star system DC come from?


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 5, 2015)

This is LordGenome during the Battle of Teppelin (Episode 15), Willy.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 5, 2015)

And yeah, what Rob said.

Where does the star system DC come from?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 5, 2015)

High end result based on the high end of Slayer's Galaxy bunch.
Plus the black hole feat from Xrd which Sol's fist withstood without any physical damage.
Sol could've been boosted somewhat but the point was that he withstood this and That ^ (use bro) turned this energy into a mini blackhole which was stable and could've consumed the planet.
Such thing would require mass greater than that of Earth and the mass-energy of this is require such amounts.

As for how does it apply to Justice?
It's ambigious but given how she's an important factor in Xrd's plot and how many people can seemingly pose threat to base Sol now, it seems likely that she isn't THAT far behind.

EDIT: Correction.
Mass-energy of Earth is still just 5.4e41
Almost baseline starbusting level.
Oh well...


----------



## DestinyDestroyer (Jan 5, 2015)

Wait, Justice is a star buster?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 5, 2015)

Not sure but it's possible that she could be scaled to be somewhere below human Sol who's starbuster.
It's ambigious exactly where but I'd bet she could match the Valentines, at least.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 5, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> High end result based on the high end of Slayer's Galaxy bunch.
> Plus the black hole feat from Xrd which Sol's fist withstood without any physical damage.
> Sol could've been boosted somewhat but the point was that he withstood this and That ^ (use bro) turned this energy into a mini blackhole which was stable and could've consumed the planet.
> Such thing would require mass greater than that of Earth and the mass-energy of this is require such amounts.
> ...



We using MFTL KE?

News to me

Then again, not like I haven't been trying to think around that problem myself

Namely through using acceleration, given that itself doesn't have an upper limit I'm aware of.  Would be a matter of multiplying the figure by a meter after that I wager to get an energy.

Shouldn't be too hard to see how that pans out, right?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 5, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> We using MFTL KE?
> 
> News to me
> 
> ...


You were amongst the first people to be agreeing with MFTL KE.
Although the high end of Slayer's feat isn't based on that but the fact it generates luminous light with circa 5000 lightyears radius.
Low end calc assumes the minimum for flashlight while high end uses the luminosity of a star per unit area.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 5, 2015)

I'm aware, just didn't think it became consensus.  Seemed like it was a divisive enough debate.

Hence why it was something I was still thinking around

I see though, that's different

You have a blog/post for this shit?  Make the shit accessible for the lurkers that don't know their way around


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 5, 2015)

Ofc I do.
Where do you think you even made a comment on this thing?
The luminosity part is included in somewhere the latest comments on that blog.
ChaosMemory123


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 5, 2015)

mftl ke is just no


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 5, 2015)

If I don't remember something, it was often not significant enough for me to bother encoding it

Namely I lost interest fast 

GG is something I only know in passing, mostly from Dandy.  The characters look cool enough and the game's probably fun, but without having played myself, I have no investment


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Is there any canon information that confirms Justice one-shotted Japan?

I've been getting into the lore more than usual and I just noticed there's no proof that it was Justice's Gamma Ray that destroyed Nippon. Justice led an army of gears and caused chaos everywhere, but it doesn't say anywhere that it was Justice herself who directly blasted Japan. Or that it was because of her Gamma Ray


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 6, 2015)

...

...

did you like

selectively ignore the Xrd screenshots


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

This is like the 3 rd time he asked this. I'm pretty sure we gave him screenshots. Xrd literally had a scene where aria targeted japan with gamma ray charging.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Is there any canon information that confirms Justice one-shotted Japan?
> 
> I've been getting into the lore more than usual and I just noticed there's no proof that it was Justice's Gamma Ray that destroyed Nippon. Justice led an army of gears and caused chaos everywhere, but it doesn't say anywhere that it was Justice herself who directly blasted Japan. Or that it was because of her Gamma Ray





>Ignoring screencaps posted by Qing and Robert
>Not paying attention

Damn, and I thought my attention span was fucking bad.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Oh so they were the ones that did the Gamma Ray. I always thought it was Justice hating humans or whatever and doing it herself.

Also how do we know Sol can survive the Gamma Ray. Is there a canon scene where Sol dodges/tanks the attack directly? That would be the only good canon feat Sol actually has, excluding the spin-off manga and drama CDs.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Oh so they were the ones that did the Gamma Ray. I always thought it was Justice hating humans or whatever and doing it herself.
> 
> *Also how do we know Sol can survive the Gamma Ray.* Is there a canon scene where Sol dodges/tanks the attack directly? That would be the only good canon feat Sol actually has, excluding the spin-off manga and drama CDs.



Yeah... How do we know?

It's not like he's more powerful than Justice that he killed her while he was in BASE.

Nope. Not at all.




> That would be the only good canon feat Sol actually has



>Killing his past self and then telling the resulting time paradox to fuck off
>Taking multiple strolls through the Backyard all the while ignoring the constant attacks the place has on his body, mind, and soul
>Basically one-shotting Awakened Elphelt in Xrd

Yeah, tanking Gamma Ray is definitely the only good canon feat Sol has...

Despite the manga and drama CDs also being all canon as well despite your constant downplaying.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Unless there is a canon scene where Sol tanks/dodges a gamma ray (of the same caliber that destroyed Japan) we can't really be sure. It's all speculation. In the first Guilty Gear you can also defeat Justice with Chipp, Potemkin ,etc. 

The whole time paradox thing might not be canon since it's not in the Xrd database timeline. The database is very detailed, even mentioning stuff like Jam's restaurant and Johnny Missiles. Almost getting erased is a pretty big deal, yet it's not listed in the events. 

Awakened Elphelt doesn't even have feats.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 6, 2015)

I know nothing about this series in general

I do know that of all stupid things to argue, you're using game mechanics when listing the fact other characters can defeat Justice in the first game though


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 6, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Pre-timeskip LG won't be able to match her, I'm afraid.


Probably not, but it's important to get info out.
[YOUTUBE]1e2CiFbmQEg[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I know nothing about this series in general
> 
> *I do know that of all stupid things to argue, you're using game mechanics when listing the fact other characters can defeat Justice in the first game though*



Pretty much.

Newmell is practically grasping at straws again since it's Sol who canonically killed Justice in the first game.

Even Xrd's story mode says this during the meeting between Sol, Ky, Gabriel, and Zato-ONE on Zepp.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Not really talking about game mechanics. That would be tension, FRCs, slashback ,etc. Just talking about how other characters also have scenes with Justice making it extremely inconsistent. People here also treat in-game shit as canon, like Slayer's Instant Kill, Justice IK speed, Bridget IK.


The Xrd database is a compilation of lore throughout all the different games, doesn't mention Sol surviving a time paradox anywhere. I really doubt Sol can do that anytime he wants, it's more like plot stupidity.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 6, 2015)

There found the proper video Start watching at 3:00


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Unless there is a canon scene where Sol tanks/dodges a gamma ray (of the same caliber that destroyed Japan) we can't really be sure. It's all speculation. *In the first Guilty Gear you can also defeat Justice with Chipp, Potemkin ,etc. *



Which are non canon endings so who cares stop being dumb


Are you next going to tell me Carl Clover > Hazama?




> *The whole time paradox thing might not be canon since it's not in the Xrd database timeline.*



"I don't like it it didn't happen"



> The database is very detailed, even mentioning stuff like Jam's restaurant and Johnny Missiles. Almost getting erased is a pretty big deal, yet it's not listed in the events.



Irrelevant, it happened, deal with it 




Are you willfully being ignorant or are you really this retarded


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

But yeah, this thread got derailed again by that ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) Newmell.

Let's steer it right back to Justice vs. LordGenome.

So under Justice's belt, we have that 15 exaton feat from the manga, Japan getting vaporized, and now (possibly) that black hole feat that Sol performed in Xrd that Willy calc'd at around borderline star level.



As for LordGenome, we also have an exaton feat because of Gurren Lagann matching Teppelin's hammer, which gets scaled to LordGenome himself as well as his Lazengann. And if Parallel Works 8 is taken as canon, a fuckload more such as Cathedral Terra Lazengann (considering LordGenome was probably as powerful as Simon back during that flashback, that would be around small star level, the same as Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann). 

However, even if PW8 is canon, wouldn't that be inapplicable for LordGenome since he's out of shape by the time Team Dai-Gurren gets to him in Episode 15? If that's the case, maybe I can make some additional scenarios to make the match more even.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 6, 2015)

NightmareCinema said:


> And if Parallel Works 8 is taken as canon, a fuckload more such as Cathedral Terra Lazengann (considering LordGenome was probably as powerful as Simon back during that flashback, that would be around small star level, the same as Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann).



Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the only canon one.



> "In a scenery I once saw there was a modest tranquility and there was a small hope. And when they were trampled on a man rose against it. In his hand was hope. The hope of evolution. With enormous strength, the man fought...
> ... and learned of despair. People ask 'Why do you fight?' Foolish humans, tremble before my absolute power. Prostrate yourself before this overwhelming fear and despair! Before the name of the Spiral King!
> Lie in the depths of death, my foolish tribe."


TN: I had to type that shit.
This is shown in the gurren hen movie partly, as well as the works fully.
It's an event that always happens and there isn't anything that ever contradicts it.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

> "I don't like it it didn't happen"


Not everything that you see is canon. I hope I don't have to explain this shit.





> Irrelevant, it happened, deal with it



Okay, I guess Potemkin died in Accent Core. His other ending doesn't seem canon either considering what we see in Xrd. Faust cured Zato. Baiken killed I-No. Millia is dead, Eddie separated himself from Zato, hey these all happened. "Deal with it." 



Anyway, Lord Genome easily stomps Justice and GGverse. GG needs direct and consistent feats, not outliers, speculation and exaggerations. Whitebeard is implied to be a world destroyer, doesn't mean he is. Ajimu is implied to have tanked a big bang, doesn't mean it's true. 

Fanboys will be fanboys, but guess what. Facts will be facts.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

How someone can be so fucking willfully ignorant and stupid when it comes to feats just because a verse makes him salty as fuck will forever astound me.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

I mean, it doesn't take a fucking genius to figure out that certain endings are canon and others aren't


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

On topic though

With the parallel works feats LG has it really comes down to who can whip out the big guns faster between Justice and Him.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Not everything that you see is canon. I hope I don't have to explain this shit.



The irony in this post after I just point out what wasn't canon






> Okay, I guess Potemkin died in Accent Core. His other ending doesn't seem canon either considering what we see in Xrd. Faust cured Zato. Baiken killed I-No. Millia is dead, Eddie separated himself from Zato, hey these all happened. "Deal with it."



Nice try please play again later

actually don't because you suck at this




> Anyway, Lord Genome easily stomps Justice and GGverse. GG needs direct and consistent feats, not outliers, speculation and exaggerations. Whitebeard is implied to be a world destroyer, doesn't mean he is. Ajimu is implied to have tanked a big bang, doesn't mean it's true.
> 
> Fanboys will be fanboys, but guess what. Facts will be facts.



Here's a fact: you're a dumbass

And you don't know what an outlier actually is

control your salt and stop bringing up red herrings


The series > your bullshit


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

> The series > your bullshit



Pretty much this


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Not everything that you see is canon. I hope I don't have to explain this shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I even go to the trouble to find the damn video with Sol vs I-no then the resulting battle with order Sol and it's ignored?


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

Yeah, I was wondering whether PW8 was canon.

I seem to remember people debating about that.

That settles that particular argument, then.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> TL;DR



Quit being a salty little shit.

That is all.

If you have nothing better to contribute, then get the fuck out of my thread.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Jan 6, 2015)

Alright, alright, let's soften the bite of some of these comments here lads: I understand the frustration in dealing with wilful ignorance and it shouldn't be a problem to be overlooked if it is a consistent behaviour, but swearing and name-calling gets you fucking nowhere in dealing with the issue beyond short-term relief, so keep the acid to a minimum.

Perhaps we should compile a series of direct links to reliable sources detailing the canonicity of certain materials within the larger universe, as well as visual indication of outlined feats that are being disputed by Newmell or whoever, so you settle this little issue once and for all. From there, any further protestation, if done against legitimate evidence, will be viewed as an issue of the offender rather than the defender of the feats.

---

Now, what's this shit about MFTL KE application? We (should, in theory) work fictious settings, characters and accomplishments around natural physic principles, not vice-versa: trying to accomodate for feats which defy universal convention by all accounts is one thing (measuring the precise speed of a superluminal object is incredulous by RL standards, but at the end of the day it's a simple measurement), but using the impossibility of superluminal travel as the foundation for an equation that is intrinsically rooted in the limitations of speed (for example, quantifying the multitude of effects objects undergo past the relativistic barrier requires an entirely new equation separate from the traditional Newtonian model) seems way too much of a leap in logic and rationality in our already stretched application of scientific equations and formulae.

That's my opinion on the matter, though.

Also: vereb, can you confirm that the black hole in question would've in fact destroyed the planet or indeed should be equated to the destructive power of a natural micro-black hole? There are far too many artificial black hole variants in fiction that immediately are (and rightfully so) excluded from equal validity of capability due to limited information on their properties, so I'm hesitant to automatically cede this over without explicit evidence supporting your claim.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

The statement came from the Defacto smartest person in the verse and was pretty much confirmed by another scientific genius when it happened. Said person also created an artifact that would have threatened the entire universe had it gone haywire, and Sol managed to just punch it to make it stop flipping the fuck out.

If need be I can fire up the youtube video and take screencaps for you, wombat.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> *The statement came from the Defacto smartest person in the verse and was pretty much confirmed by another scientific genius when it happened*. Said person also created an artifact that would have threatened the entire universe had it gone haywire, and Sol managed to just punch it to make it stop flipping the fuck out.
> 
> If need be I can fire up the youtube video and take screencaps for you, wombat.



Forgive me, don't really debate here _that_ often.

But is this how it works? How far do we usually take character statements?


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Character statements are taken as proof on a case by case basis, depending on how reliable the source for the statement is AFAIK


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 6, 2015)

Character statements are ~solid depending on who, where, when, how and what was said

:33


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

If that's the case I really don't see any reason not to take That Man's word for it considering he's smarter than Sol and deals with the Backyard, which he was using for the feat, on a regular basis not to mention is an expert at magic considering he's one of the Apostles who introduced it into the setting

Small addition to this: Sol has a Ph.D in particle physics and also an expert at magic, so if That Man was talking out of his ass, you can be pretty sure Sol would call him out on it.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 6, 2015)

>The scene at hand

Leo: What's happening?!

That Man: Magic draws power directly from the Backyard, and I'm serving as an intermediary.

That Man: Frederick's fist will carry more energy than anything on this planet is capable of producing

That Man: I convert that energy into matter, and we contain that within a pocket dimension using the Schwarzschild radial limit

That Man: We then destroy the physical space occupied by the barrier, creating a spontaneous microverse

That Man: The rest is simple--we need only to take measures to ensure the world isn't destroyed in the process

Paradigm: Simple? Well, you certainly make it sound that way

Now for definitions

Schwarzschild Radial Limit: 

This is one the theories put forth by German physicist Karl Schwarzschild. It is part of an exact solution to Einstein's field equations for general relativity for the limited case of a single spherical non-rotating mass. If all of an object's mass is compressed past its Schwarzschild radius, then the escape speed from the surface of that object is equal to the speed of light. The Schwarzschild radius of the Earth, for instance, is approximately the size of a peanut

The barrier being breached by Sol and That Man

Absolute Defense: Felion: A near-perfect shield that protects the bearer from all types of physical and magical damage. Only the extremely privileged are able to wield this power, such as the Sanctus Maximus Populi and the Conclave

The AD is basically an AT Field on cracked being powered by the Backyard, or to be specific, sort of using the Backyard as a shield


----------



## KaiserWombat (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> If need be I can fire up the youtube video and take screencaps for you, wombat.



If you wouldn't mind doing the extra work, I'd greatly appreciate it Rob

Nip this problem in the bud as clearly as possible


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Raidou posted the dialogue of the scene+ definitions for it

Let me fire up Xrd to get the actual caps


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 6, 2015)

And to be clear, the only energy the Earth is physically capable of producing, is a lightning bolt called St. Elmo's Fire which only happens like every 10 (?) years and that has enough power to destroy an entire city, as well as used to revive Justice in the plot


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 
























Notice how Paradigm doesn't contradict or deny his statement, he just mentions that it's EXTREMELY fucking hard to pull off something like that, but That Man makes it easy

Chronus on the other hand, is absolutely shitting himself at the fact that AD:F got punched through.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Jan 6, 2015)

Cool stuff, thanks


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Nor worries, modbat


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 6, 2015)

And if anyone has questions on GG, there's like a hundred definitions in the library function of the game


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

and I have the Guilty Gear Codex on hand for supplemental information


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

Lucky bastard


----------



## Fujita (Jan 6, 2015)

KaiserWombat said:


> Now, what's this shit about MFTL KE application? We (should, in theory) work fictious settings, characters and accomplishments around natural physic principles, not vice-versa: trying to accomodate for feats which defy universal convention by all accounts is one thing (measuring the precise speed of a superluminal object is incredulous by RL standards, but at the end of the day it's a simple measurement), but using the impossibility of superluminal travel as the foundation for an equation that is intrinsically rooted in the limitations of speed (for example, quantifying the multitude of effects objects undergo past the relativistic barrier requires an entirely new equation separate from the traditional Newtonian model) seems way too much of a leap in logic and rationality in our already stretched application of scientific equations and formulae.
> 
> That's my opinion on the matter, though.



Just dropping by to agree with this. 

We use physics where it applies. We make generous allowances with secondary effects (say, somebody punching apart a mountain without the required shockwave affecting things that aren’t the mountain), but _not_ for the effect that we’re calculating, or we wouldn’t be able to calculate it in the first place (we need the mountain to have real-life toughness, or all bets are off). 

Any given verse may substitute its own fictional physics wherever it wants, but when that happens we can’t assume anything about it but what we see. If somebody moves FTL in that verse, all that means is that they move FTL, and without direct evidence of what their KE is, we can’t assume anything about what the KE equation looks like in that verse. Assuming that Newtonian KE still holds due to lack of relativistic effects is a nice assumption (hell, I’d even say it’s a very solid assumption), but it’s not substantiated by anything, at least not to the degree that most other things we calc are. (Again, the allowances we make aren’t generally for what we actually calc.) 

Real-life physics is kaput and we don’t have the necessary data from the fictional verse. Unless of course we do, which IIRC happened with some Mass Effect(?) thing that Chaos was talking about a while back, where we actually know how FTL works. Other than that, though, all we can really say about FTL movement is that it works. Somehow.


----------



## Byrd (Jan 6, 2015)

I had assume Lord G was around Moon level or such... whenever the Arc Gurren came into play... didnt he used that in his fight against the enemies


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 6, 2015)

What's your take on using acceleration to find the force of a FTL object then multiplying that newton value by a meter for the overall energy Fujita?

To my knowledge, acceleration doesn't have a hard cap like velocity in real life tends does (like, you can in theory have infinite acceleration)


----------



## Fujita (Jan 6, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> What's your take on using acceleration to find the force of a FTL object then multiplying that newton value by a meter for the overall energy Fujita?
> 
> To my knowledge, acceleration doesn't have a hard cap like velocity in real life tends does (like, you can in theory have infinite acceleration)



That's... an interesting question. 

I'd say that's dodging the problem more than solving it, because the acceleration in this case relies on a change in velocity that's impossible by real-life standards. So there's still something "wrong" with the quantities you're plugging into the equation, as far as real-life physics goes. 

And if real-life physics held here, you'd get the same answer as using Newtonian KE. (Edit: maybe not if you use a meter as an arbitrary distance... though I'm not sure why you're using a meter?) Feels like cheating.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 6, 2015)

True

I'm just trying to think of something better than "this star was thrown at FTL, let's slap its own GBE to it as a DC"

Because even that is us just bullshitting, albeit a really low end bullshit


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 6, 2015)

I know that it's impossible to accelerate to the speed of light.

Not sure why because the internet hates explaining things like this


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 6, 2015)

We regularly ignore where does the energy comes from which allows characters to perform various superhuman shit.
We regularly ignore where does the vaporized matter disappear once an energy blast made a steaming hot hole in the mountain.
We regularly ignore how super strength subverts the conversation of energy.
And now we're supposed to care that if an object just happens to move at ftL velocities?

It seems you haven't thought this out throughly enough.
Yes, KE calculation is derived from relativity but do we care when a fictional character does not follow the relativistic effects once close to the speed of light?
We don't.
So get that stick out of your asses.
Using a partially faulty formula is still better than just twindling our thumbs and saying it's unquantifiable.
Because we can apply this mindset to literally everything we measure.


----------



## Regicide (Jan 6, 2015)

Somehow I don't see this getting any further than previous discussions on FTL KE.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 6, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> We regularly ignore where does the energy comes from which allows character to perform various superhuman shit.



Because we don't care; we calculate the energy required to do the superhuman shit according to physics, we don't calculate where it comes from.



> We regularly ignore where does the vaporized matter disappear once an energy blast made a steaming hot hole in the mountain.



because we calc the matter vaporizing, not disappearing 



> We regularly ignore how super strength subverts the conversation of energy.



Similar ideas to above



> And now we're supposed to care that if an object just happens to move at ftL velocities?
> 
> It seems you haven't thought this out throughly enough.
> Yes, KE calculation is derived from relativity but do we care when a fictional character does not follow the relativistic effects once close to the speed of light?



...yes, because this time we're using the velocity directly in the calculation. Really, these aren't the same at all. 

We can say that vaporization _works_, because a material seems to act as it would in real life. The collateral effects might not work, but vaporization still does. On the other hand, realistic KE simply does not work at these velocities. We can alter it so it does, and maybe even be justified in doing so, but it's not the same as using vaporization in the above example. I mean, going 

> real life kinetic energy doesn't work
> but let's use some aspect of real-life kinetic energy in the calculation 

is obviously wrong. 

Of course, I'm phrasing it that way rather than "relativity doesn't work so let's ignore relativity," but I'm doing that deliberately, because kinetic energy works one way in real life. And it doesn't work at FTL speeds.  

I spent the first paragraph of my post addressing this kind of thinking. Did you actually read my post? 

Like I said, cutting out relativity certainly isn't unsubstantiated. But it's also acting like we understand lolfiction feats much like we do real-life physics, when we really don't. 



> Using a partially faulty formula is still better than just twindling our thumbs and saying it's unquantifiable.



...we twiddle our thumbs with a lot of shit and say it's unquantifiable, as almost every frustrated Bleach wanker has found found, so I'm not buying this "it's better than twiddling our thumbs" stuff. Whether or not we _want_ to quantify something, all that matters is whether or not we can. 



ChaosTheory123 said:


> True
> 
> I'm just trying to think of something better than "this star was thrown at FTL, let's slap its own GBE to it as a DC"
> 
> Because even that is us just bullshitting, albeit a really low end bullshit



I'd been meaning to make a thread about low-end bullshitting, actually 

but then I got distracted by lightspeed Naruto in the blogs


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Can you post screencaps/videos of Sol tanking a Japan-level Gamma Ray? How do we know Sol actually got hit by the attack? How do we know Justice is capable of using an attack that strong on a regular basis, without That Man increasing the Maximum output +40? It seems like a one-time plot related thing rather than the actual Gamma Ray Justice uses in battle. 


It's not like continents are destroyed whenever Sol and Justice fights.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 6, 2015)

Naruto would be lightspeed alright, once Justice makes them astronauts


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell, thats ultimately irrelevant when Sol does beyond that with withstanding the shit he did with That Man and not die, from *within* for fuck sakes


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

"Oh sure let me just not use one of my strongest moves vs someone who's trying to kill the shit out of me"- Justice in Newmel''s super secret special edition of Guilty Gear


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> It's not like continents are destroyed whenever Sol and Justice fights.



it's not like planets are destroyed whenever SSJ Goku fights *insert SSJ tier opponent here*


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 6, 2015)

Its not like stars are being busted everytime Gold Saints throw a punch


----------



## Regicide (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> It's not like continents are destroyed whenever Sol and Justice fights.


You say that like you actually expect fiction to adhere to conservation of energy.


----------



## Kurou (Jan 6, 2015)

Then there's the fact that Dizzy's own gamma ray is ridiculously powerful and it was stated she's nowhere near as strong as mamma Justice


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 6, 2015)

Regicide said:


> You say that like you actually expect fiction to adhere to conservation of energy.



Its funny too

Lordgenome's hardly wrecking continents with each blow he throws either

None of his pre-skip feats are all that collateral inducing to my knowledge in fact.

Not that hypocrisy isn't a thing, just amusing to point it out when someone's pet character is being given special consideration


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

The triforce isn't planetary, chaos. It's never been shown to affect the planet when someone makes a wish


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Can you post screencaps/videos of Sol tanking a Japan-level Gamma Ray? How do we know Sol actually got hit by the attack? How do we know Justice is capable of using an attack that strong on a regular basis, without That Man increasing the Maximum output +40? It seems like a one-time plot related thing rather than the actual Gamma Ray Justice uses in battle.
> 
> 
> It's not like continents are destroyed whenever Sol and Justice fights.




*Spoiler*: __ 












> Considering it's a Drama CD. What do you think the visuals are, flutter?
> 
> Vaping seems the most likely considering what comparable Magical Lasers do in the series.
> 
> ...



"I'm just going to ignore feats and the database because I don't like it"


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> The triforce isn't planetary, chaos. It's never been shown to affect the planet when someone makes a wish



Let's not forget that Majora can't throw around life wiping power without chucking the moon at something


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

So..every gamma ray Justice does is as strong as the one that destroyed Japan? Don't forget it was That Man who increased that attack's maximum output.

Also Sol really has no feats despite beating Justice, and we don't even know how that went down. Can anyone post scans/whatever of Sol directly tanking a Japan-busting attack/anything more powerful than that? If not then why the hell are people pretending he's continent level or some shit. 

Sol is a gear bounty hunter that fights with a fire sword. Through plot stupidity, he somehow resisted getting erased by a time paradox in one ending in one game. (Didn't Daisuke Ishiwatari say that the only main canon games are GG and GG2?) I'm not even sure if Accent Core is canon, since many endings throughout that game are inconsistent with Xrd. And I'm not just talking about the bad/good endings. There are some characters that have impossible endings (both paths, not just one). 

 When has Sol ever shown in the games that he is capable of being a Japan buster, and what attack will he even use to do that? Gunflame, bandit revolver? It's pretty much impossible for him. He managed to beat Justice, but how do you know he tanked a gamma ray that had the maximum output? Where does it say that every single Gamma Ray Justice does is as powerful as the one that destroyed Japan?


----------



## Saint Saga (Jan 6, 2015)

Nah, it just asked the moon to fall politely and the moon agreed.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

"I don't like it so it didn't happen"
- Newmell, 2015


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 6, 2015)

Saint Saga said:


> Nah, it just asked the moon to fall politely and the moon agreed.



Isn't that how it always happens?


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> So..every gamma ray Justice does is as strong as the one that destroyed Japan? Don't forget it was That Man who increased that attack's maximum output.
> 
> Also Sol really has no feats despite beating Justice, and we don't even know how that went down. Can anyone post scans/whatever of Sol directly tanking a Japan-busting attack/anything more powerful than that? If not then why the hell are people pretending he's continent level or some shit.
> 
> ...






GiveRobert20dollars said:


> "I don't like it so it didn't happen"
> - Newmell, 2015




Yeah, that's totally what I said.


----------



## Regicide (Jan 6, 2015)

We don't apply those standards to other series, why would Guilty Gear be subject to more scrutiny?


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Because Newmell can't handle the fact that guilty gear reks Nardo and BlazJew in a straight up fight.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 6, 2015)

> We don't apply those standards to other series, why would Guilty Gear be subject to more scrutiny?


not wanting to be that guy...
but i'm pretty sure third raikage isn't considered country level despite facing hachibi on a figth where both of them collapsed.
exactly because we never got to see he getting hit by bjd.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Saga with that A-list help, like always


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

I love how you keep ignoring my post and go right back to sidestepping. Sol and Justice are all hype, unless you actually prove that they're that strong.


----------



## Saint Saga (Jan 6, 2015)

I did nothing , I was just quoting the words of a wise man.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

I was talking to Robert


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> I love how you keep ignoring my post and go right back to sidestepping. Sol and Justice are all hype, unless you actually prove that they're that strong.


you mean like people have posted 5 times yet you conveniently ignore it despite and I quote 


> Being the only one here who actually played Xrd's story mode


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

I mean shit, I played story mode and managed to find a fuckton of useful information on the events and what happened in the past GG-wise

yet you somehow missed all the information

Did you play the game while facing a wall or something?

Or is your tunnel vision really that bad?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 6, 2015)

look, it's very simple

if character A does something of X magnitude, and A is bloodlusted then hits character B with his/her best attack, B can tank something that causes X amount of damage despite lack of collateral


----------



## Saint Saga (Jan 6, 2015)

Nah, Justice just wasn't feeling it that day.

She could've used her best attack and not die but....too much effort.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

KaiserWombat said:


> swearing and name-calling gets you fucking nowhere in dealing with the issue beyond short-term relief, so keep the acid to a minimum.



They really don't have anything except for sidestepping, so that's why they resort to attacking the debater instead of actually debating. 


Where are the scans/screencaps of Sol tanking a Japan-busting attack?

No one is able to post anything.


Where are the scans/screens of canon text saying every Gamma Ray Justice does can destroy Japan. Story mode emphasized that That Man is the one that increased the output of that one-time Gamma Ray. It doesn't mean all gamma rays are that strong. And even then, it never shows Sol doding/tanking a gamma ray of that calibur.


So yeah, they're all hype. Unless someone posts proof that they're continent busters.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 6, 2015)

so Justice practices the ways of the Hivemind too


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

She didn't want to hurt Sol's eyes with gamma radiation

What a nice Gear

Thinking about Sol like that


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> They really don't have anything except for sidestepping, so that's why they resort to attacking the debater instead of actually debating.
> 
> 
> Where are the scans/screencaps of Sol tanking a Japan-busting attack?
> ...


So, you're going to just assume that Justice, who wants to murder the shit out of every human, who has previous beef with Sol because the holy order wound up sealing her in the dimensional prison, didn't use one of her strongest moves in an effort to destroy Sol?

That's some gr8 logic you've got going there


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> -snip-



Stop. Derailing. My. Thread.

Information and feats have already been posted MULTIPLE FUCKING TIMES already.

You choosing to ignore their posts =/= lack of evidence.


----------



## Regicide (Jan 6, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> not wanting to be that guy...
> but i'm pretty sure third raikage isn't considered country level despite facing hachibi on a figth where both of them collapsed.
> exactly because we never got to see he getting hit by bjd.


Would imagine that being because Hachibi is kind of huge.

The point is, in general, we don't look at shit and demand the level of evidence Newmell is suggesting.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> They really don't have anything except for sidestepping, so that's why they resort to attacking the debater instead of actually debating.



no, people are attacking your arguments, you just latch onto them stubbornly despite the information posted 



> Where are the scans/screencaps of Sol tanking a Japan-busting attack?



see previous pages and arguments



> No one is able to post anything.



despite the fact that they have posted stuff


> Where are the scans/screens of canon text saying every Gamma Ray Justice does can destroy Japan. Story mode emphasized that That Man is the one that increased the output of that one-time Gamma Ray.



are you implying that wasn't her own power?


> It doesn't mean all gamma rays are that strong.



they are if she's firing them with the intent of utterly killing someone who's a threat to her


> And even then, it never shows Sol doding/tanking a gamma ray of that calibur.



so...you don't think he'd be dodging or taking some of them despite the fact he actually fought her?


> So yeah, they're all hype. Unless someone posts proof that they're continent busters.



again, see previous pages


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Ironically, you're so called "proof" just supports the fact that Justice is all hype.

The Japan-busting attack was a ONE-TIME plot-related thing and That Man had to make it way stronger. There is nothing that suggests Justice can casually spam Japan-busting gamma rays anywhere.

Also there's no proof that Sol tanked/dodged an attack of that calibur. You can swear and call me names all you want. Sol and Justice are all hype, unless you prove me wrong.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

So, you're just going to ignore the evidence posted despite canon contradicting everything you say?

Back on topic: My original view still stands 

this is really gonna come down to a battle of who can whip out their best moves the fastest between Justice and LG


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> So..every gamma ray Justice does is as strong as the one that destroyed Japan? Don't forget it was That Man who increased that attack's maximum output.



Not only did you gloss over the fact the database flat out states it's only "one of" her strongest attacks, not her strongest attack, it also states Dizzy's version is inferior to hers

Justice Gamma Ray > Dizzy Gamma Ray

the series > your BS




> *Also Sol really has no feats*



>Defeats Justice
>defeats a city sized gear in a weaker form
>breaks the Cube which controls the information of the Backyard
>defeats Dizzy
>defeats a copy of Justice operating at near the original's power
>defeats his past Self
>survives in The Backyard which is a simultaneous mind and soulfuck
>defeats the first Valentine
>Defeats Awakened Elphelt and Ramlethal
>no feats



> *despite beating Justice, and we don't even know how that went down.*



His heel met her forehead which is all we need to know





> Sol is a gear bounty hunter that fights with a fire sword. Through *plot stupidity*, he somehow resisted getting erased by a time paradox in one ending in one game.







> (Didn't Daisuke Ishiwatari say that the only main canon games are GG and GG2?)



Cite it or you're talking out of your ass



> I'm not even sure if Accent Core is canon, since many endings throughout that game are inconsistent with Xrd. And I'm not just talking about the bad/good endings. There are some characters that have impossible endings (both paths, not just one).



Again, Carl beat Hazama, I guess this means ChronoPhantasma is non canon.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> So, you're just going to ignore the evidence posted despite canon contradicting everything you say?



What exactly contradicts it?

Please show me where it says Justice is capable of the Japan Gamma Ray without That Man's help. Xrd's story mode emphasized that it was a very specific one-time attack, needing the scientists to be there. How do we know every single gamma ray is just as powerful? Especially the fact that they said the power was increased by 40%(?)

Sol is never shown tanking/dodging a gamma ray that strong too.


----------



## zenieth (Jan 6, 2015)

Does Sol creating a pillar of crazy tall fire not count as a feat due to lack of visuals?

Does Hydra being the size of London not count due toa scale chart?


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> What exactly contradicts it?
> 
> Please show me where it says Justice is capable of the Japan Gamma Ray without That Man's help. Xrd's story mode emphasized that it was a very specific one-time attack, needing the scientists to be there. How do we know every single gamma ray is just as powerful? Especially the fact that they said the power was increased by 40%(?)
> 
> Sol is never shown tanking/dodging a gamma ray that strong too.


The fact that That Man, who made the bitch in the first place, can increase her power by that much means Justice should be capable of outputting that same amount of power on her own. It's not like she was hooked up to the facility or some shit like that like an EVA unit

She's got the capactiy to overcharge her gamma ray to blast the shit out of things, and assuming she didn't use this vs sol is just plain fucking dumb.

Not to mention the fact that if Justice was near the explosion site, she would have had to tank the energy from it.

Either way sol needed to overcome her durability in order to kill the shit out of her

in base

while he was WAY fucking weaker than he is now.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> The fact that That Man, who made the bitch in the first place, can increase her power by that much means Justice should be capable of outputting that same amount of power on her own.



That's not how it works. Character A makes Character B stronger, so that means Character B can do that same thing by himself?




> assuming she didn't use this vs sol is just plain fucking dumb.


Actually, it's not. Sol could just attack Justice before she can even charge up the attack, or interrupt it. Or she could have used it and Sol dodged. We don't even know if any of that happened, or if her gamma rays are as strong as the Japan-busting one.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 6, 2015)

>all of it being irrelevant due to Xrd feats of Sol not getting insta-gibbed by That Man making Sol OP the fuck out of NOT!AT Field

At this points its just semantics by Newmell who's suggestions and ideas hold no water


----------



## Kurou (Jan 6, 2015)

He didn't increase her power, he increased her output considering she was trying not to vaporize the place


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> That's not how it works. Character A makes Character B stronger, so that means Character B can do that same thing by himself?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not. Sol could just attack Justice before she can even charge up the attack, or interrupt it. Or she could have used it and Sol dodged. We don't even know if any of that happened, or if her gamma rays are as strong as the Japan-busting one.



>Justice gets ported to japan
>Gamma Ray output increased by 40
>Yet somehow this means Justice can't do this by herself despite it being something built into her apparently


>Sol Could just attack Justice
>Yet Justice's Gamma Ray vaped japan in an instant
>But she wouldn't use it or charge it up

Keep denying it all you want

The feats are there, you're just choosing to ignore them because you don't like it.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

I mean fuck

there's shit like Sol making a fireball that was visible for fucking MILES ON END

and Raven took that shit and asked for more

and Sol's regen is hyped up to be just as good as Raven's

So him taking a gamma ray to the face isn't all that unlikely


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 6, 2015)

I think Newmell is a bit lost 



that's probably the place he's looking for if he wants his arguments taken seriously


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Stop sidestepping and show me things that are canon. Scans/screens/text saying all of Justice's Gamma Ray's are as strong as the one that destroyed Japan. A one-time plot related attack doesn't always mean the attack is always that strong. It's just common sense.

Sol has never been portrayed as someone that can overpower a Japan-busting attack or anything more powerful than that. So why is he considered continent level. Without direct feats it's all speculation, right?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> *>Justice gets ported to japan
> >Gamma Ray output increased by 40
> >Yet somehow this means Justice can't do this by herself despite it being something built into her apparently*
> 
> ...



Reminder, this was at the time where Justice was still consciously Aria

The Crusades and the two times she fights Sol was when she was truly Justice, the Herald of Destruction who wanted humanity murdered

So her being forced to use Gamma Ray, which btw, Justice's overall power outpaces Earth no matter how you slice it which is a fucking PLOT POINT to reviving her 

So, Justice while being manually controlled by That Man while she was going nuts vaped the glorious nation of Nippon to the point that its a literal hole in the ground

What fucking universe does anyone not think she's incapable of doing so on her own

Does some random magi-tech facility generate enough power to weaponize a magic beast like Justice despite being told that there's nothing on this Earth that was physically capable to do so besides a random lightning storm that pops up every decade that wipes cities physically but is used to generate electricity for an entire city for ages? Until it pops up again?


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> >all of it being irrelevant due to Xrd feats of Sol not getting insta-gibbed by That Man making Sol OP the fuck out of NOT!AT Field
> 
> At this points its just semantics by Newmell who's suggestions and ideas hold no water



That Man himself never tried to kill Sol though, so I don't know what this has to do with anything. Clearly you didn't finish story mode. 

That Man easily got teleported out by Bedman too. Which was hilarious.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> *Stop sidestepping and show me things that are canon. *




Hey still waiting on that proof that everything but GG and GG2 are not canon


How about you get to that first instead of raging against scans from the game and database saying you're wrong


----------



## zenieth (Jan 6, 2015)

Kliff could harm Hydra

Hydra is a megadeth.

Megadeths require Last Resort to kill

Last Resort's guaranteed megadeath kill beam has a radius of seven kilometers


Kliff can't sufficiently wound justice


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> Hey still waiting on that proof that everything but GG and GG2 are not canon
> 
> 
> How about you get to that first instead of raging against scans from the game and database saying you're wrong



Actually I was asking you guys if Daisuke said GG and GG2 are the only canon games. It was a question, not a statement. I remember reading about this, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

So you have no citation and are talking out of your ass, got it


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> What fucking universe does anyone not think she's incapable of doing so on her own



How do you know her other Gamma Rays are as strong as the Japan busting one? How do you even know she used it against Sol and Sol tanked it? It's all speculation. Unless there is canon info that confirms these.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> So you have no citation and are talking out of your ass, got it



Uh, it was a question, not a statement so this response doesn't make sense.
It's just like the guys in this thread making statements and not citing anything.


I asked for scans/screens of Sol tanking a Japan-busting Gamma Ray. No one posted shit.

I asked for proof that all of Justice's Gamma Rays are as powerful as the one that destroyed Japan. No one proved shit.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Did you seriously try to say people who have been posting scans and information from the game are not citing anything

like, really?

Are you this willfully trying to stonewall?


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> Did you seriously try to say people who have been posting scans and information from the game are not citing anything
> 
> like, really?
> 
> Are you this willfully trying to stonewall?



The scans they posted aren't the ones I'm looking for. Show me where it says all of Justice's Gamma Rays are as powerful as the one that busted Japan.

Show me Sol tanking a Japan-busting Gamma Ray.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Proof has been posted over and over for the feats

you just keep ignoring them and asking for other scans while arguing semantics and willingly stonewalling in an effort to save whatever shred of credibility that hasn't been obliterated in previous and this thread


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Proof has been posted over and over for the feats
> 
> you just keep ignoring them and asking for other scans while arguing semantics and willingly stonewalling in an effort to save whatever shred of credibility that hasn't been obliterated in previous and this thread



Proof that all of Justice's Gamma Rays are as strong as the one that destroyed Japan?
where?


Proof that Sol tanked a Japan-level Gamma Ray?
where?


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Proof that all of Justice's Gamma Rays are as strong as the one that destroyed Japan?
> where?
> 
> 
> ...



Proof's already been posted not just in the previous pages but also in the past THREE threads that you also stonewalled (Sol vs. Ragna, Bedman vs. Negima, and Leo vs. Nardoverse).

You just can't be bothered to use logic in order to make that conclusion for yourself.

Seriously, why would you assume that Justice, a character HELL-BENT on killing Sol, wouldn't use one of her strongest moves on the guy? That's just fucking stupid. When a character's mindset is "kill the living fuck out of someone else," they go all out. 

Then again, your personal bias against Guilty Gear prevents you from drawing the logical conclusion.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

> Seriously, why would you assume that Justice, a character HELL-BENT on killing Sol, wouldn't use one of her strongest moves on the guy? That's just fucking stupid. When a character's mindset is "kill the living fuck out of someone else," they go all out.



How do you know she used it? How do you know Sol didn't just dodge it? How do you know the power of all her gamma rays are equal to the Japan busting one? 

Like I said before, show me proof that all of Justice's gamma rays are Japan-busting.
Show me proof that Sol tanked a Japan-busting attack.





> Then again, your personal bias against Guilty Gear prevents you from drawing the logical conclusion.



I play Guilty Gear and main Sol. The only Guilty Gear games I don't own are Petit and the Chimaki game. I like the series, so it's definitely not personal bias.


----------



## Regicide (Jan 6, 2015)

I'm pretty sure we have a thing for situations like this.

I believe it's called Occam's Razor.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> How do you know she used it? How do you know Sol didn't just dodge it? How do you know the power of all her gamma rays are equal to the Japan busting one?
> 
> Like I said before, show me proof that all of Justice's gamma rays are Japan-busting.
> Show me proof that Sol tanked a Japan-busting attack.



I like how the goal post keeps moving with each of your posts


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

Regicide said:


> I'm pretty sure we have a thing for situations like this.
> 
> I believe it's called* Occam's Razor*.



Yup

use reasoning, Newmell

Justice wanted Sol dead, and was fighting at her fullest. One would think that she would use the best of her abilities to see Sol kick the can.

Funny thing is, you don't seem to be over analytical about any other series. Just Guilty Gear.

You never questioned nardo D/C, why GG?


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Justice did destroy Japan with a Gamma Ray. But it was That Man that decided to increase her maximum output and it was obviously a very specific plot related thing. There is nothing that proves Justice can just casually spam the same gamma rays with the same destructive power. And there is also nothing that proves Sol has tanked an attack that strong. 


I also don't know why people accuse me of being biased against a game I clearly like. It's called being objective. It doesn't mean I hate the series. I would say Homura easily defeats Sayaka, doesn't mean I hate Sayaka. I love Sayaka.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

So objective that you have to nitpick the shit out of clearly defined feats just because you don't like them

So objective that you claim to have played the games yet said BB seemed superior when it's clearly not

So objective that when people post screencaps and information about events and feats you just deny them and shift the goalpost while claiming PIS for Sol and justice's feats

the double standard here is fucking staggering


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Justice did destroy Japan with a Gamma Ray. But it was That Man that decided to increase her maximum output and it was obviously a very specific plot related thing. There is nothing that proves Justice can just casually spam the same gamma rays with the same destructive power. And there is also nothing that proves Sol has tanked an attack that strong.
> 
> 
> I also don't know why people accuse me of being biased against a game I clearly like. It's called being objective. It doesn't mean I hate the series. I would say Homura easily defeats Sayaka, doesn't mean I hate Sayaka. I love Sayaka.





Lucia said:


> He didn't increase her power, he increased her output considering she was trying not to vaporize the place






GiveRobert20dollars said:


> >Justice gets ported to japan
> >Gamma Ray output increased by 40
> >Yet somehow this means Justice can't do this by herself despite it being something built into her apparently
> 
> ...





Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Reminder, this was at the time where Justice was still consciously Aria
> 
> The Crusades and the two times she fights Sol was when she was truly Justice, the Herald of Destruction who wanted humanity murdered
> 
> ...





You can keep acting like people haven't answered your questions in this very thread and moving the goal post and arguing from belief though


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Yup
> 
> use reasoning, Newmell
> 
> ...



Or you can just..you know...post feats. I'm analytical about Guilty Gear because I like talking about it. I like the lore and the characters. I just don't like people pretending that the characters are these strong continent/star busters when nothing in the games even imply that. 

Justice destroyed Japan because of That Man. You can't just say because of this one instance, all her other gamma rays will do the same damage. And you also can't say Sol is capable of tanking the attack without proof.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Or you can just..you know...post feats. I'm analytical about Guilty Gear because I like talking about it. I like the lore and the characters.* I just don't like people pretending that the characters are these strong continent/star busters when nothing in the games even imply that. *
> 
> Justice destroyed Japan because of That Man. You can't just say because of this one instance, all her other gamma rays will do the same damage. And you also can't say Sol is capable of tanking the attack without proof.



In other words "my belief > what actually happens in the series"

You're a riot


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> So objective that you have to nitpick the shit out of clearly defined feats just because you don't like them
> 
> So objective that you claim to have played the games yet said BB seemed superior when it's clearly not
> 
> ...



"This character did this one thing with the help of another character."
"That must mean that character can just repeat the same feat without any proof"

No.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Justice did destroy Japan with a Gamma Ray. But it was That Man that decided to increase her maximum output and it was obviously a very specific plot related thing. There is nothing that proves Justice can just casually spam the same gamma rays with the same destructive power. And there is also nothing that proves Sol has tanked an attack that strong.
> 
> 
> I also don't know why people accuse me of being biased against a game I clearly like. It's called being objective. It doesn't mean I hate the series. I would say Homura easily defeats Sayaka, doesn't mean I hate Sayaka. I love Sayaka.


Oh yeah


Newmell said:


> Yeah I guess. GG is nothing but disappointments.



Totally


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> In other words "my belief > what actually happens in the series"
> 
> You're a riot



Your belief is "I believe in what the OBD says without thinking for myself and actually looking at what's in the actual games."

What is Sol's continent busting attack? When did Leo or Gabriel ever show continent busting power? When did Justice ever use a Gamma Ray with the same power as the Japan-busting one?


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> "This character did this one thing with the help of another character."
> "That must mean that character can just repeat the same feat without any proof"
> 
> No.



>Ignoring the fact that justice likely can control the output of her own gamma ray weapon system
>Which is more supported by Occam's razor than your stance

Keep flailing all you want

the evidence and feats line up perfectly


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Your belief is "I believe in what the OBD says without thinking for myself and actually looking at what's in the actual games."



Coming from the person who claimed to play the games then got proven wrong, multiple times, by scans from the game

this is downright hilarious


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> [GOALPOST SHIFTING INTENSIFIES]



This is almost bad comedy


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Oh yeah
> 
> 
> Totally



So..because Xrd is disappointing, that means I have to hate the whole series, "yeah totally". I mean it's just so unjustified. You're saying I should love having a pathetic roster, horrible netcode, on-disc overpriced DLC, slower and simpler gameplay and gimmicky garbage mechanics. 

It's totally impossible to hate one thing in the series without hating the whole thing, right?


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

"Guilty Gear is nothing but disappointments"

Blanket statement that implies the whole series is disappointing

your backpedaling is hilarious


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> Coming from the person who claimed to play the games then got proven wrong, multiple times, by scans from the game
> 
> this is downright hilarious



Oh, you posted the scans that prove every Gamma Ray is as powerful as the Japan busting Gamma Ray? Where?

You posted scans where it shows Sol can tank a Japan-busting attack? Where?


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> So..because Xrd is disappointing, that means I have to hate the whole series, "yeah totally". I mean it's just so unjustified. You're saying I should love having a pathetic roster, horrible netcode, on-disc overpriced DLC, slower and simpler gameplay and gimmicky garbage mechanics.
> 
> It's totally impossible to hate one thing in the series without hating the whole thing, right?



You said GG as in the whole series, rather than just one game. So this was on you


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Oh, you posted the scans that prove every Gamma Ray is as powerful as the Japan busting Gamma Ray? Where?
> 
> You posted scans where it shows Sol can tank a Japan-busting attack? Where?


Nice Repeating Ad nauseum you've got there


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Oh, you posted the scans that prove every Gamma Ray is as powerful as the Japan busting Gamma Ray? Where?
> 
> You posted scans where it shows Sol can tank a Japan-busting attack? Where?



Thats like saying every person who was calc'd here can't be used because maybe

_Fucking Maybe_

That person's attack isnt always the same.

Meaning most of the series's D/C's should be thrown out.

What the hell


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Your belief is "I believe in what the OBD says without thinking for myself and actually looking at what's in the actual games."
> 
> What is Sol's continent busting attack? When did Leo or Gabriel ever show continent busting power? When did Justice ever use a Gamma Ray with the same power as the Japan-busting one?



For Sol, try his Gun Flame (his weakest attack). Specifically, when he one-shotted the fuck out of that Gear in the manga (which is canon despite your constant denial).

For Leo and Gabriel, there's something called "powerscaling." Especially for Gabriel considering *Slayer* of all people considered him a worthy rival.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> "Guilty Gear is nothing but disappointments"
> 
> Blanket statement that implies the whole series is disappointing
> 
> your backpedaling is hilarious



I was obviously joking, but very nice of you to quote that out of context. It was a joke after a conversation where I learned Sharon isn't as strong as I thought she was. But I guess an irrelevant post somehow proves that Sol can bust continents. 


The fact that you have to attack the debater instead of actually debating is just hilarious.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Nice Repeating Ad nauseum you've got there



Sidestepping and not showing those scans. As expected.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> I was obviously joking, but very nice of you to quote that out of context. It was a joke after a conversation where I learned Sharon isn't as strong as I thought she was. But I guess an irrelevant post somehow proves that Sol can bust continents.
> 
> 
> The fact that you have to attack the debater instead of actually debating is just hilarious.


It's so obviously a joke that you've gone to not one, not two, but four different threads claiming the exact same shit

and in every single one you've been torn apart by the posted evidence but you keep repeating the same fallacies as if that will help your credibility

you're a riot


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Sidestepping and not showing those scans. As expected.


Show me proof of Justice not being able to control her gamma ray's output
Show me proof of her not using one of her strongest attacks in order to kill Sol

Show me proof of any of your claims in this thread

you made the statement, occam's razor lines up with everyone who's posted scans in this thread

the burden of proof is on you to prove your own side of the argument


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> Oh, you posted the scans that prove every Gamma Ray is as powerful as the Japan busting Gamma Ray? Where?
> 
> You posted scans where it shows Sol can tank a Japan-busting attack? Where?




You going to stop shifting goal posts or deny you made the following posts:






> *I just finished Xrd's story mode and there weren't really any impressive feats except maybe one.*
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...





Newmell said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Newmell said:


> So..every gamma ray Justice does is as strong as the one that destroyed Japan? Don't forget it was That Man who increased that attack's maximum output.
> 
> *Also Sol really has no feats despite beating Justice,* and we don't even know how that went down. Can anyone post scans/whatever of Sol directly tanking a Japan-busting attack/anything more powerful than that? If not then why the hell are people pretending he's continent level or some shit.
> 
> ...


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

We can't exactly ask him to prove a negative, because the affirmative always have the burden of proof (or so I assume.)

The problem is that we do have proof. We have tons of evidence stacking.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 6, 2015)

Thread getting to page 8 for all the wrong reasons.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 6, 2015)

In conclusion, both Justice and LordGenome get tired of Newmell's shit and both of them decide to powerbomb him through a planet instead.

S-class ending.


----------



## Newmell (Jan 6, 2015)

NightmareCinema said:


> For Sol, try his Gun Flame (his weakest attack). Specifically, when he one-shotted the fuck out of that Gear in the manga (which is canon despite your constant denial).
> 
> For Leo and Gabriel, there's something called "powerscaling." Especially for Gabriel considering *Slayer* of all people considered him a worthy rival.



1. Gun Flame isn't Sol's weakest attack.
2. What makes the manga canon?
3. When you're powerscaling out of speculation, it means nothing. Slayer is apparently a star/star system buster because of that one image in an instant kill in the older GG games. Slayer got wrecked by Bedman and obviously couldn't defeat him. 

Slayer had a chance to punch Bedman during the part with Chipp and May. Obviously if he could do that instant kill, he would have just did that and ended it there. Gabriel's Agni X was not a continent busting attack. If that was true the whole place would have exploded, since it was an omnidirectional attack. Leo was shitting his pants when he had to face fodder in story mode. Leo needed Johnny's help to fight Bedman and all he did was make a tiny little crack. Making a tiny little crack on Bedman does not make him continent level. Especially since Gabriel defeated Bedman without using continent busting attacks. Powerscaling is fine, if done right.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> 1. Gun Flame isn't Sol's weakest attack.
> 2. What makes the manga canon?
> 3. When you're powerscaling out of speculation, it means nothing. Slayer is apparently a star/star system buster because of that one image in an instant kill in the older GG games. Slayer got wrecked by Bedman and obviously couldn't defeat him.
> 
> Slayer had a chance to punch Bedman during the part with Chipp and May. Obviously if he could do that instant kill, he would have just did that and ended it there. Gabriel's Agni X was not a continent busting attack. If that was true the whole place would have exploded, since it was an omnidirectional attack. Leo was shitting his pants when he had to face fodder in story mode. Leo needed Johnny's help to fight Bedman and all he did was make a tiny little crack. Making a tiny little crack on Bedman does not make him continent level. Especially since Gabriel defeated Bedman without using continent busting attacks. Powerscaling is fine, if done right.



Except that Zato has stated that Beddoman is a one trick pony, and that anyone who knows his gimmick can beat him

I know for a fact that we have stated this to you time and time again. Yet, as usual, you block it out and submit to ignorance


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 6, 2015)

Newmell said:


> 1. Gun Flame isn't Sol's weakest attack.
> 2. What makes the manga canon?
> 3. When you're powerscaling out of speculation, it means nothing. Slayer is apparently a star/star system buster because of that one image in an instant kill in the older GG games. Slayer got wrecked by Bedman and obviously couldn't defeat him.
> 
> Slayer had a chance to punch Bedman during the part with Chipp and May. Obviously if he could do that instant kill, he would have just did that and ended it there. Gabriel's Agni X was not a continent busting attack. If that was true the whole place would have exploded, since it was an omnidirectional attack. Leo was shitting his pants when he had to face fodder in story mode. Leo needed Johnny's help to fight Bedman and all he did was make a tiny little crack. Making a tiny little crack on Bedman does not make him continent level. Especially since Gabriel defeated Bedman without using continent busting attacks. Powerscaling is fine, if done right.






> Slayer got wrecked by Bedman and obviously couldn't defeat him.



Despite Zato clearly stating that had Slayer known about bedmang's ability he would have never lost

>Gabriel knows
>Bodies Bedman
>Gabriel is considered a rival to Slayer
>Slayer can't beat bedman

Nice flawed logic you've got there


Gun Flame IS sol's weakest attack because it's just a casual blast of his fire magic

Just his Dragon Install makes it a shit ton more powerful.

The manga is canon because it takes place during the interlude between the games, and the database already mentions the novels and references events from them

No reason to assume the manga isn't canon along with the Drama CD's

Stop being obtuse


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 6, 2015)

Well enough of this


----------

