# Lucifer (Supernatural) vs Luke Skywalker (read OP)



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Ok so we all remember that thread a little while ago that had Michael and Lucifer vs Luke and Palpatine. There was a slight majority in that thread that the force users would win due to faster reaction times, and teh angels having shown no resistance to mental abilities. Well I was watching through season 5 and 6 of Supernatural the other night, and noticed a few feats that nobody brought up, so since that thread is locked I decided to make a new one.

First off angels have shown a few mental abilities. Michael was able to erase John and Mary Winchesters memories in the past, and Castiel was able to erase all memories of Dead from the minds of Ben and Lisa, and replace them with false memories. Castiel was also able to read Cupids mind.

*But the main feat* that nobody really brought up, was at the end of season five. When Sam is prepared to let Lucifer posses him to try and take controll, Lucifer describes it as "A wrestling match inside your mind", and later on he points at his head and says he could feel Sam inside, scratching to get out. Bobby also describes his encounter with possesion like a battle of wills inside his mind.

Now on its own Lucifers possesion of Sam is not that impressive a feat, but the point of brining this in was to introduce the similarity in possesion and mental assult/defence. Because later at the begining of season 7, Castiel is possesed by hundreds, possibly thousands of Leviathans, and is able to resist them taking controll for weeks. 

And this is in addition to him having millions, maybe billions of souls (all that were in purgetory) inside of him as well. Its explained earlier in that same arc that demons are just human souls twisted and warped by Hell, so one could also make the argument that all the souls he took in may have been pushing on him as well.

And of course powerscaling Lucifer >>> Castiel assumes he has the same, or greater level of resistance. Now even with this he still hasnt shown resistance to the level of mental assault that Luke is capable of, but I would say that this is the same as Luke vs Xaviar, Luke cant overpower Proffesor X mentaly, but he could (depending on distance) hold out long enough to walk up and stab him with a lightsaber, or force choke him.

Lucifer should be able to hold out long enough to snap his fingers and make Luke explode, or go back in time and give him scrotem cancer, or just leave his vessel and show up in his true form to make Lukes eyeballs explode.

Now I am not brining this up to start a necro shitstorm, these are all legit feats that were never argued in the old thread. So what do yall think?


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## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Ok so we all remember that thread a little while ago that had Michael and Lucifer vs Luke and Palpatine. There was a slight majority in that thread that the force users would win due to faster reaction times, and teh angels having shown no resistance to mental abilities. Well I was watching through season 5 and 6 of Supernatural the other night, and noticed a few feats that nobody brought up, so since that thread is locked I decided to make a new one.



Okay...



> First off angels have shown a few mental abilities. Michael was able to erase John and Mary Winchesters memories in the past, and Castiel was able to erase all memories of Dead from the minds of Ben and Lisa, and replace them with false memories. Castiel was also able to read Cupids mind.



He also allowed Sam and Dean to retain their memories about their encounter with Fate after Balthazar re-sunk the Titanic. Pretty impressive when you consider that those memories were from an erased timeline. Could be considered a difference maker.


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Season 5 Episode 17: My Heart Will Go On said:
			
		

> CASTIEL Well, I insisted he go back in time and correct what he'd done.
> 
> SAM What? Why?
> 
> ...






My main concern is being able to compete with Luke telepathically _and_ attempt to muster enough concentration into using his molecular combustion.



> *But the main feat* that nobody really brought up, was at the end of season five. When Sam is prepared to let Lucifer posses him to try and take controll, Lucifer describes it as "A wrestling match inside your mind", and later on he points at his head and says he could feel Sam inside, scratching to get out. Bobby also describes his encounter with possesion like a battle of wills inside his mind.
> 
> Now on its own Lucifers possesion of Sam is not that impressive a feat, but the point of brining this in was to introduce the similarity in possesion and mental assult/defence. Because later at the begining of season 7, Castiel is possesed by hundreds, possibly thousands of Leviathans, and is able to resist them taking controll for weeks.
> 
> ...




Crowley estimated 30-40 million souls.


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Season 6 Episode 20: The Man Who Would Be King said:
			
		

> CROWLEY Purgatory, my fine feathered friend. Purgatory. Just think about it. An untapped oil well of every fanged, clawed soul. I mean, what's that over the years? 30 million? 40 million? Just sitting there, plump and rich for the taking.






Besides that, you just might have something here as far as their mental defenses go, but as far as resisting people like Luke, I would wait for someone like Fang, Nihilus, or Tranquil Fury to comment on this as well.

EDIT:



Fang said:


> Millions of souls is not going to do a damn thing about stopping a telepath who casually mind-fucks trillions of beings



Well that's that. Lucifer isn't winning this.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Millions of souls is not going to do a damn thing about stopping a telepath who casually mind-fucks trillions of beings, Palpatine also soul-fucked a planet with a population three times that of our own, and Luke is beyond him currently.

Other then the obvious fact of what the OP is trying to do, it doesn't change the match up.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

but does this mean Sammy boy > 30-40 millions freaks + leviathans ?

Cass held em down at least for a few days IIRC fine, but Luci had some trouble with 1 Sam 

plot-armor and all, but still


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## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Millions of souls is not going to do a damn thing about stopping a telepath who casually mind-fucks trillions of beings, Palpatine also soul-fucked a planet with a population three times that of our own, and Luke is beyond him currently.
> 
> Other then the obvious fact of what the OP is trying to do, it doesn't change the match up.



He held out for weeks against millions of souls, he would only need to hold off Luke for about a second to kill him. Its the same deal as your argument about Luke vs Proffesor X really (although I think I mentioned that already). *And* Lucifer is stronger than Cas.



Fluttershy said:


> but does this mean Sammy boy > 30-40 millions freaks + leviathans ?
> 
> Cass held em down at least for a few days IIRC fine, but Luci had some trouble with 1 Sam
> 
> plot-armor and all, but still



He didnt really have trouble with Sam, he laughed at Sams attempts to take controll. It wasnt untill the end when he was about to beat Dean to death that sam took the wheel. And that just reeks of PIS.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

> It wasnt untill the end when he was about to beat Dean to death that sam took the wheel. And that just reeks of PIS.


that was the omniversal power of the Impala


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

18 Billion souls > 30 million souls.

Trillions of minds > Millions of minds.

Palpatine beats them both in astral powers, Luke is above him. They aren't holding out for a second against that kind of concentrated psychic or astral attack, period. The order of magnitude is comparable to Sasuke trying to mind-fuck Emma Frost.


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## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Ok I have no idea how to go about calcing something like this, but Im going to simplify it as much as I can.

lets say it takes Lucifer 1 second to kill Luke (it would probably take less), and Cass was able to hold out against 40 million souls for lets say 1 week (pretty sure it was more).

1 week has 604,800 seconds. Now he held out against 40 million souls for 604,000 seconds. You multiply that you would need somebody capable of mind fucking over 24 trillion people in a second to fully incopacitate him before he can snap his fingers. Thats thousands of planets. 

Now I know thats probably not the most accurate way of calcing that, but it gives you a general idea. Show me a feat of Luke incopacitating that many people.


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## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> 18 Billion souls > 30 million souls.
> 
> Trillions of minds > Millions of minds.
> 
> Palpatine beats them both in astral powers, Luke is above him. They aren't holding out for a second against that kind of concentrated psychic or astral attack, period. The order of magnitude is comparable to Sasuke trying to mind-fuck Emma Frost.



That ends it then. We know that Castiel is leagues below Lucifer, but the extant of Lucifer's telepathic/astral abilities haven't been made clear.He could mindfuck billions and could very well do it to with as much depth as Luke, but unless the developers of the series decide to compose side stories about the full scope of an archangel's power, it's all up in the air. 


Luke takes this.



Ryjacork said:


> Ok I have no idea how to go about calcing something like this, but Im going to simplify it as much as I can.
> 
> lets say it takes Lucifer 1 second to kill Luke (it would probably take less), and Cass was able to hold out against 40 million souls for lets say 1 week (pretty sure it was more).
> 
> ...



This whole thing looks like territory that should remain uncharted.


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## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Judas said:


> That's end it then. We know that Castiel is leagues below Lucifer, but the extant of Lucifer's telepathic/astral abilities haven't been made clear.He could mindfuck billions and could very well do it to with as much depth as Luke, but unless the developers of the series decide to compose side stories about the full scope of an archangel's power, it's all up in the air.
> 
> 
> Luke takes this.



I dont wanna get flak for being the hold out here, but Im still not convinced dude (and certainly not just because fang says so). Fang said Luke mind fucked a trillion people, and while yes that is a greater number than the millions Cas was able to resist, by my reckoning its still not enough to incopacitate him instantly considring how long Cas was able to resist the souls and leviathans.

And he w*ould* have to incopacitate him instantly, because all it takes is less than a second for Lucy to snap his fingers and one shot Luke in any number of ways. Archangel power scale aside Im not even convinced Luke could take a regular angel like Castiel with this.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

100 square mile area on Coruscant gives us a population density of 1 trillion residents based off the Luskanya burial and its entire size ripping out chunks of city-scape; that's a single city-district. The entire planet based off that would have nearly a quintillion in total population since its a eucmenopolis.

Kay, still trumped it.


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## God (Feb 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Ok I have no idea how to go about calcing something like this, but Im going to simplify it as much as I can.
> 
> lets say it takes Lucifer 1 second to kill Luke (it would probably take less), and Cass was able to hold out against 40 million souls for lets say 1 week (pretty sure it was more).
> 
> ...



Good work, agreed.


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## Darth Nihilus (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm assuming he's saying that Palpatine mindfucked trillions of people (hasn't read the novel/comic/etc) aside from Luke himself, who is stronger than Palpatine currently, and just trying to compare current Luke to Palpatine before his death. 

You have Pre-Reborn Palpatine who was clouding the thoughts and minds of the Jedi Council and Luke who isn't even a Jedi Master yet six months after ROTJ who killed thousands of soldiers via mind link in Shadows of Mindor. 

Now as for Current Luke's feats... Yeah, needs to get more into the NJO mein square


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Try harder Cubey 



lol


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## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

Cubert too?


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## Fish127 (Feb 21, 2012)

Lets say that Luke does mind shank Lucifer into oblivion, he erases his mind to the point that nothing is left. Then what? You cant kill an angel like that, he would just heal from it then come back and incinerate Luke.

I also wanna point out that the OP never specified that Lucifer is in his vessel, and with a standard OBD distance of 20 meters, Lukes eyes would be dribbling out of his head as soon as he set eyes on Lucifer.


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## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)




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## Tranquil Fury (Feb 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Ok I have no idea how to go about calcing something like this, but Im going to simplify it as much as I can.
> 
> lets say it takes Lucifer 1 second to kill Luke (it would probably take less), and Cass was able to hold out against 40 million souls for lets say 1 week (pretty sure it was more).
> 
> ...



Scott Steiner is that you?You are doing calcs using souls and time, think about why it's wrong. You assume that because a character enslaved a large number of souls/people for a certain time, that you can somehow multiple that number with timespan to somehow create a number beyond what the character has shown to dominate. Considering that Byss has 31 hours a day and Palpy enslaved the population for years, the number with your own method would still drastically exceed your inflated number. I'm not arguing for any side but the sheer faulty logic in this post needed to be addressed.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Oh its the revival of the argument that even Banhammer admitted doesn't hold much water as the only psychic that happened to doesn't have the feat, scope, or power to hold a candle to top tier Force-Users at all.


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## Herekic (Feb 21, 2012)

So, how exactly did luke and palpatine deal with lucifer's, you know, REALITY WARPING?


They can control time and space, manipulate causality, pretty much whatever the fuck they feel like doing at any given time.


balthazar, a MUCH weaker angel than lucifer, was able to alter the timeline and prevent the titantic fron sinking.

how exactly do force users fight reality benders?

and this is all in their vessels. their true forms are gigantic masses of cosmic power. castiel was said to be around the ssize of the chrysler building, for example.


even SEEING an angel in it's real form will burn you out, and thats just a rank and file one like castiel, say nothing of an arcangel. 



Seriously, how the FUCK could the force users win this?



Sure they got system wide force storms and all that fun stuff, but none of that really helps when your opponent can erase you from existence just by thinking about it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

> how exactly does one fight reality benders?






how does Professor X fight bitches ?


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## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Scott Steiner is that you?You are doing calcs using souls and time, think about why it's wrong. You assume that because a character enslaved a large number of souls/people for a certain time, that you can somehow multiple that number with timespan to somehow create a number beyond what the character has shown to dominate. Considering that Byss has 31 hours a day and Palpy enslaved the population for years, the number with your own method would still drastically exceed your inflated number. I'm not arguing for any side but the sheer faulty logic in this post needed to be addressed.



Well yea obviously I was using our own 24 hour day for a 7 day week. Just replace _one week_ with _168 hours_ and you get the same result. I mean I said I was just going about that calc in a very general way. For example I assumed it would take 1 second for an angel to kill Luke, with Castiels speed searching an entire city in 2 seconds he could probably do it in less. If you make it half a second than that doubles the number (and is still being generous with time). I was just trying to get a quick general idea.

How many souls exactly did Palpatine enslave? And was he able to do it instantly? And did any of them have mental defence of any kind?



Fang said:


> Oh its the revival of the argument that even Banhammer admitted doesn't hold much water as the only psychic that happened to doesn't have the feat, scope, or power to hold a candle to top tier Force-Users at all.



Actually Imma side with you on this and say myself that Banhammer was wrong about that. That psychic was in mental contact with Castiel for a few minuts before her eyes melted, they actually talked a bit with him telling her to back off. It wasnt untill she actually looked at his true face that her eyeballs got fried. The mental contact had nothing to do with it.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

>mind-fuck entire planets with population densities that are greater then the Earth's entire current population
>affect a psychic energy that creates and governs the universe
>Luke is fighting a Lovecraftian horror of pure dark side essence who had to be contained on a planet in an artificial star system designed  to incorporate multiple black holes and a  star busting galaxy ranging super hyperspace based station to keep her in check for tens of thousands of years so she wouldn't life wipe the galaxy
>Palpatine soul fucking a planet with a population of 20 billion and corrupting into a dark side nexus

Kay. I can't even see why we would argue this.


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## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

For this thread I would re-insert my input from the last one, since my doubts about the outcome did not vary with the number of angels involved, but by the results of interacting a psychic with a being of divine intent as it is portrayed in supernatural
If it turns out it is all very standard luke should take it with arguable dificulty
If it turns out it's not, for which there is some reason, but little evidence, luke may have to cope with things my brain as is cannot comprehend


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## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> >mind-fuck entire planets with population densities that are greater then the Earth's entire current population
> >affect a psychic energy that creates and governs the universe
> >Luke is fighting a Lovecraftian horror of pure dark side essence who had to be contained on a planet in an artificial star system designed  to incorporate multiple black holes and a  star busting galaxy ranging super hyperspace based station to keep her in check for tens of thousands of years so she wouldn't life wipe the galaxy
> >Palpatine soul fucking a planet with a population of 20 billion and corrupting into a dark side nexus
> ...



Dude only one of those actually gives me a number. The first two points, while impressive feats, have nothing to do with this match since they dont come into play... The only thing you just said that is relivant is the thing about Palpatine mind fucking billions of people.

And for FUCK SAKE stop brining up Abeloth when her feats have nothing to do with this. Every thread I can search "lovecraftian horror force monster" and find the same post and description of her by you. The fact that Luke is fighting her is hardly relivant unless you give specific feats that are could effect to Lucifer. And since she is 12x more powerful than Luke, I dont think you can even powerscale him off of her.

Thats like me saying "well Lucifer enslaved Death, so that makes him a cube level universal life wiper"


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Still not seeing a change in the match up as Force-Users have shown they are not normal beings, have large scale astral and psychic abilities and powers, and the top tiers shit on c velocities when it comes to reactions and reflexes.

And for the third time, Byss has a population of 20 billion, Palpatine soul-fucked it.

Edit: Abeloth isn't 12x more powerful then Luke.


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## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Edit: Abeloth isn't 12x more powerful then Luke.



:shrug thats just what I heard (from you i thought), maybe the number is wrong. But she is stronger than him, yes?



> And for the third time, Byss has a population of 20 billion, Palpatine soul-fucked it.



How does that = trillions which was the claim you were making earlier? Like I said my calc may be rough around the edges, but by my reckoning you need something that can mind fuck like 25-50 trillion beings.


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## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Still not seeing a change in the match up





Banhammer said:


> my doubts about the outcome did not vary with the number of angels



Two threads one cup


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

I know right.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 21, 2012)

Reality Warper vs non Reality Warper, who wins?


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## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

A king, a banker and a priest are all trying to kill each other
Between them stands a common sellsword


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## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

Raest mentally and astrally dominated a continent's worth of sentient/near--sentient beings for thousands of years. I wonder what his results would look like. 



			
				Malazan Book of the Fallen: Gardens of the Moon said:
			
		

> At first he sought to subjugate other Jaghut, but more often than not they either escaped him or he was forced to kill them. Such contests held only momentary satisfaction. Raest gathered beasts around him, bending nature to his will. But nature withered and died in bondage, and so found an escape he could not control. In his anger he laid waste to the land, driving into extinction countless species. The earth resisted him, and its power was immense. Yet it was directionless and could not overwhelm Raest in its ageless tide. His was a focused power, precise in its destruction and pervasive in its effect.





Orochibuto said:


> Reality Warper vs non Reality Warper, who wins?



Because that's all it comes down to right?


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> A king, a banker and a priest are all trying to kill each other
> Between them stands a common sellsword



Dean Winchester solos

yeah Raest vs Lucy sounds like an epic fight.


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## Herekic (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Still not seeing a change in the match up as Force-Users have shown they are not normal beings, have large scale astral and psychic abilities and powers, and the top tiers shit on c velocities when it comes to reactions and reflexes.
> 
> And for the third time, Byss has a population of 20 billion, Palpatine soul-fucked it.
> 
> Edit: Abeloth isn't 12x more powerful then Luke.





Good luck trying to mindfuck something that is just a giant mass of cosmic intent.


Angel's need human vessels to communicate with physical beings because their own forms and "minds" are so alien that it's impossible.


We actually have an ep in heave with angels in their real forms talking: it sounds basically like garbled radio noise.


The guy translating it had to use a fucking mathematical equation to understand it. good luck trying to mindfuck something who's mind you can't even understand.



The inner mental conflicts with angels are because the angel intentionally brings itself down to the vessel's level and communicates in a way it can understand. it's not something you can do by force.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Cosmic intent? 

Funny how Palpatine soul-fucked a planet and its population which is literally 2000 times greater then anything shown by Supernatural top-tiers when it comes to soul-manipulation. Telepathy? They have no defenses around people who can replicate that or greater, you know like Luke mind-linking into the minds of tens of thousands of Clone Troopers across the range of a star system or mind-controlling other Jedi and Force-Users across the galaxy and through dimensions.

Yeah sounds like you don't know what your talking about. Or the fact that Palpatine created a psychic shroud in the Force that disabled the long-range precognitive and clairvoyant powers of an entire order of tens of thousands of Jedi. Or how even much weaker Force-Users can communicate with dimensional beings like Waru telepathically, screw around with artificial life-forms sensors and perceptions, and even do a a quasi-Vulcan mind-meld with non-sentient crystals.

So I don't think so, Jim.


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Lucifer isn't a Supernatural top tier

that would be God and Death


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

He's close enough


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## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Still waiting on that feat where Luke incapacitates trillions of beings in an instant, that have resistance to mental attacks...

I also wanna point out that angels have a stronger mental will than the fodder of Star Wars (idk if I mentioned that or it was in the post I deleted). Most humans go insane after a few months in Hell. Lucifer was down there for thousands of years and came out fine.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Why do you keep making goofy non-sequiters.

Coruscant's population is in the hundreds of trillions, Palpatine mind-fucked them. Byss' population is over 19 billion, Palpatine soul-fucked it.


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Nah the gap between them is huge 

God is a cube level being at least, he created the universe, likely the alternate universes, he shit out a dimension which shits out dimensions... etc:

Death is reaching for Skyfather level with a claim towards being => God

Then you have Lucy...who's a life wiper/planet buster


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## Distracted (Feb 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Ok I have no idea how to go about calcing something like this, but Im going to simplify it as much as I can.
> 
> lets say it takes Lucifer 1 second to kill Luke (it would probably take less), and Cass was able to hold out against 40 million souls for lets say 1 week (pretty sure it was more).
> 
> ...



If you gave me 20 pounds to hold, I could hold it for quite a long time.  In fact I cold probably hold it for an entire day without feeling any real fatigue, assuming I could shift it around and stuff.  Anything beyond that and I'd probably need sleep desperately, let's just leave it at 1 day. There's a total of 86,400 seconds in a single day.

By your logic if someone managed to hand me 4,320,000 pounds I could hold it up for one second and escape before it turned me into a blood stain.  Just throwing that out there.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

> likely the alternate universes


that one I dunno

their powers didn't work in 'our' world, maybe God has no power there either


or maybe he made the beginning and then it starts branching out into an infinite multiverse by itself


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

So this thread is done right, since the astral and psychic powers of Lucifer isn't a candle to Luke's, from powerscaling Palpatine's; which is vastly superior, he loses then.

Match is done.

Simple as that:

20 billion souls > 30 million souls.

Hundreds of trillions of minds being controlled and wiped > 30 million minds.


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## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Coruscant's population is in the hundreds of trillions, Palpatine mind-fucked them.



Ok thats what Ive been asking about dude. Did he do it in an instant? Did he completley incopacitate them all? How many of them have mental defence? Did he do it to the entire planet?


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

God and Death were there before the Supernatural universe was created so it's easy to assume that God got bored one day.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

Your body submits, your heart succumbs, so why does yor mind resist?


> Official census: 1 trillion permanent ground residents



holy fuck, how did they fit them all there


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

He did it when he felt like hiding the Luskanya's burial in the Works region of Coruscant after it was inserted into the cityscape, and all in-universe and out-universe sources state it he did it in one time, instantly.

Match over.

The novel that details states with that 100 mile radius is home to more then a trillion people.

Edit: That's the lowball number for the planet's population.


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## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

This thread might as well be locked. It's evident that Lucifer's mental defenses are no where near the level required to compete with Luke or Palpatine.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 21, 2012)

Pretty sure Death is cube level aswell

Creating an eclipse suggest that he is capable of other certain cosmic phenomenom if you know what i am saying


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

I ain't gonna comment on the match, but Lucifer has the tools to take Luke out easily, it just so happens Luke has the same.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

The problem is while that's true, they lack the movement speed to overpower the ridiculous reaction speed/reflexes, precognition, and telepathic might that a top tier Force-User can use off the bat. Though most of their conventional powers won't work against the angels of Supernatural.

So 6/10's times its going to be with the Force-User out-reacting them and hitting them first.


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Lucifer can stop time, so speed might be kind of meaningless.


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Unless Luke has shown defences against Time Manipulation of course.


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## Fish127 (Feb 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> Your body submits, your heart succumbs, so why does yor mind resist?
> 
> 
> holy fuck, how did they fit them all there



Thats a far cry from 100 trillion...



Fang said:


> Match over.



Unless thats you conceding then no its not. It see over half the people posting here saying that Lucy would stomp or that its up in the air.

I fail to see how Luke can deal with reality warping and time travel, even if he is stronger than Lucifer with mental manipulation.

And for the record this whole "anything that thinks can be mind fucked" argument is crap. there are plenty of non corporeals that should be immune to that. Non corporeals in Star Wars are linked within the force, so a force user mind fucking them, is not the same as other incorporeals.



Herekic said:


> Good luck trying to mindfuck something that is just a giant mass of cosmic intent.
> 
> 
> Angel's need human vessels to communicate with physical beings because their own forms and "minds" are so alien that it's impossible.
> ...



Exellent points. Not even mentioning the fact that the last person to make mental contact with a much weaker angel had their eyeballs burst into flames.



Just curious, seeing as how many people seem to consider this a close match. How would the top dogs of Star Wars fare against the top characters of Supernatural?


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

> Just curious, seeing as how many people seem to consider this a close match. How would the top dogs of Star Wars fare against the top characters of Supernatural?


Death or God could solo Star Wars

but y'know, Supernatural top tiers are so far above the rest it isn't even funny


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## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Lucifer can stop time, so speed might be kind of meaningless.



Lightspeed reactions is a very steep hill to overcome unless we assume that the ability is passive.


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## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Yeah that is a fair point.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

> And for the record this whole "anything that thinks can be mind fucked" argument is crap. there are plenty of non corporeals that should be immune to that.


if they have feats of telepathy resisting - sure




> So 6/10's times its going to be with the Force-User out-reacting them and hitting them first.


4/10 ain't bad at all


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Judas said:


> Lightspeed reactions is a very steep hill to overcome unless we assume that the ability is passive.



You would probably know better than me, but didnt castiel say something about angels looking at time as fluid (some of the dialague from future Lucifer and past Michael kind of supports that), with them looking at it from above?

I mean idk how this works exactly, but lets say Luke gets the jump on him and starts mind fucking, wouldnt Lucifer from a few minuts in the past be aware of this and be able to jump forward and get the jump on Luke? Talking time travel and awareness gives me a headache >.<



Fang said:


> So 6/10's times its going to be with the Force-User out-reacting them and hitting them first.


The problem I have here is that mind fucking isnt a one shot kill, even if he hits them first. We have seen already that angels *do* have defence. Plus they heal, who says that their minds cant just contoniously heal itself while being attacked? Or say they broadcast an image of their true face while being attacked and make the force users head explode...


----------



## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Except with telepathy, it usually is pretty instantaneous. Here's Starkiller doing it to dozens of Stormtroopers and Imperial officers casually. He's not even a top tier.



			
				Star Wars: The Force Unleashed pg.167 said:
			
		

> Simplicity suited him, however. He didn't want to think, to have to agonize over motives and methods. He just wanted to act. With none of the joy he had felt while assaulting the lodge and with none of the challenge offered by the black Imperial Guards on Bespin, he plowed through the faceless stormtroopers as a wampa would stride through snow. Sith lightning crackled; bodies broke under his irresistible telekinesis; his mind influenced the decisions of officers, who ordered their underlings to attack one another in droves. None could stand up to him and survive.
> 
> When he reached the base of the skyhook, he was momentarily given pause. How to bring about the ruin of six constructs several stories high? Their super-strong materials were designed to handle the stresses of holding the massive station directly above, against all the laws of physics. How could he overcome their resistance?
> 
> The answer, as always, lay in the FOrce. The Force was beyond physics. The Force could not be resisted, when wielded by confident hands. The Force would always be sufficient.


----------



## Fish127 (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Except with telepathy, it usually is pretty instantaneous. Here's Starkiller doing it to dozens of Stormtroopers and Imperial officers casually. He's not even a top tier.



Except Stormtroopers dont have any mental defence.


----------



## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

And Angels don't have feats of resisting people who can mind-fuck billions to trillions of beings including telepathic species, other Force-Users, natural telepaths, and non-sentient.

Your argument is debunked again.


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Fish127 said:


> Just curious, seeing as how many people seem to consider this a close match. How would the top dogs of Star Wars fare against the top characters of Supernatural?



Death could solo Star Wars with ease. God is probably even more powerful. They are both waaaaaaaaaaaaay above Lucifer, Death calls him a petulent child throwing a tantrum.


----------



## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Ulti, do you think there is anything left in this thread now or are we done here?


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> And Angels don't have feats of resisting people who can mind-fuck billions to trillions of beings including telepathic species, other Force-Users, natural telepaths, and non-sentient.
> 
> Your argument is debunked again.



Your still missing the point. Lucifer dosnt need the mental defence to resist Lukes attack completley, he just needs enough to hold it off for a fraction of a second. And yes even a small mental defence will stop a large assault, all that it has to do is avoid being completley overwhelmed for a fraction of a second.

And your twisting words. Starkiller mind fucking a bunch of Stormtroopers who have *no* mental defence instantly is not the same as somebody mind fucking somebody with a *weaker* mental defence than theirs instantly.


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Your body submits, your heart succumbs, so why does yor mind resist? at the end of the vid and continues in the next one.
Your body submits, your heart succumbs, so why does yor mind resist?

Here is Castiel stopping time and having a little chat with Atropos, the time stop seems instant to me, seeing as he literally just waltzed in. Lucifer is leauges above him, seeing as all angels share the same ability depending on the rank with Lucifer being an Archangel, the highest. Video also shows Balthazar having to time travel to sink the titanic again (after he stopped it)

Up to you to judge though


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

> Ulti, do you think there is anything left in this thread now or are we done here?



I'd say we're just about finished, yes


----------



## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

I agree, either Luci can react quick enough to time-stop and one-shot Luke or Luke mind-fucks or soul-fucks him.

Pretty obvious conclusion when we get down to the meat of things without the silly non-sense out of the tangent.


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Angels dont have souls


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

small nitpick

Angels don't have souls


----------



## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Luke doesn't care.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

for such soulless beings they sure do pack a lot of swag


----------



## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

Only Lucifer can make soulless swagger look good.


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

they just need to learn pop culture. Gabriel and Lucifer had swag due to the sheer wittiness and pop culture references they had, they adapted to human culture in a way, especially Gabriel.

Castiel's character in Season 5 had him adapting which made it funny, especially him trying to be an FBI agent  and in season 6 he did in a way but it went out of the window after he absorbed the souls in purgatory.


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

This scene was always badass to me. Him just strolling through the corpses of Pagan Gods.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

I wanna argue the reactions debate point but I'm far too raigen effected to do anything about it


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

is it my set 

I'll make it Destiel or Wincest () don't worry


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

an important question then - has Cass ever ridden in the Impala ? at least in the backseat ? IIRC he's teleported to them inside the car, but actually stay for a ride i think not 

Cass + Impala =


----------



## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Castiel's character in Season 5 had him adapting which made it funny, especially him trying to be an FBI agent


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

I...don't remember. I think Jimmy rode in it.

He might have done while he was depowered, technically he was in the episode they went to heaven on the radio


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

How can that face lie ?


----------



## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I wanna argue the reactions debate point but I'm far too raigen effected to do anything about it



Your gonna have a hard time doing that when high tiers without their precognition have smacked around turbolasers which are verified in all their film instances throughout the trilogies to be lightspeed, and the city searching feat was kind of debunked given the unquantifiable nature of the size of the area that Castiel searched.

So yeah, I really doubt you want to go that road when Force-Users have much much better reactions. Which also get several fold times better with the advent and advantage of their precognitive powers.


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> an important question then - has Cass ever ridden in the Impala ? at least in the backseat ? IIRC he's teleported to them inside the car, but actually stay for a ride i think not
> 
> Cass + Impala =



When he lost his powers caus of eve, he complained about how slow it was.

Balthazar had the best swag of any angel, but Gabriel was a close second. And of course Zacharia had his moments, complaining about all of us "pig filthy humans"...


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

Balthazar is #1 for me .. every second on-screen was a treasure

then Luci (non-Sam .. the hobo version ), Gabriel and Zacky



Cass had his own special brand


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

I don't see the need to argue reactions when we've established Lucy has timestop to help him. Though I get where Banhammer is coming from, Angels powers, especially Archangels are really hard to make sense of and comprehend so it's better to stick to the basics for now.


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Balthazar is my favorite Angel so hard not to love, followed by Gabriel and Castiel.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Your gonna have a hard time doing that when high tiers without their precognition have smacked around turbolasers which are verified in all their film instances throughout the trilogies to be lightspeed, and the city searching feat was kind of debunked given the unquantifiable nature of the size of the area that Castiel searched.
> 
> So yeah, I really doubt you want to go that road when Force-Users have much much better reactions. Which also get several fold times better with the advent and advantage of their precognitive powers.



Linearly speaking, when it comes to speed, Starwars takes a stick and bashes the shit out of any supernatural verse character with it so hard it'll have brain coming out of their assholes.
With shown feats there's not a single doubt about it in my mind
However...


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

Azazel, Crowley and maybe Alastair are up there too

but angels had a special charm .. elitist motherfuckers


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> I don't see the need to argue reactions when we've established Lucy has timestop to help him. Though I get where Banhammer is coming from, Angels powers, especially Archangels are really hard to make sense of and comprehend so it's better to stick to the basics for now.



Their physical reactions are gimped in their vessels, in their true forms aren't they made of pure energy or something and can travel the cosmos? I would imagine they are a lot faster in their true forms.

Although when you look at time as fluid and can stop/travel through time, reaction speed dosnt matter as much.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

"What's wrong, choir boy?"


:33


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Azazel was an absolute prick but you loved him for it, everyone loved Crowley and Alastair was a sexual deviant


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

My hellhound is bigger


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

and now we're stuck with Dick Roman =/

the quality has fallen somewhat




> My hellhound is bigger


that was 10/10


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

the only good part of dick roman is all of the dick jokes Sam has been able to "pull out"


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Alistair had a pretty awesome voice in his second vessel, so it made all his lines 10x cooler. But nobody in the series holds a candle to Crowley.

"Please sir may I have another hot poker up my corn shoot"

Especialy when he gets mad

"They burned my house! THEY ATE MY TAILOR!"


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Out of the leviathans

Chet and the ones that impersonated the Winchesters were the only ones I liked.


----------



## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Nah I meant Luke doesn't have a counter to time-stopping, he does have teleportation though. But reaction speed makes it dependent on who makes the first move, the massively hypersonic moving supernatural entity with the time-stopping or the psychic guy who makes your head explode with c velocity matching reflexes.

Ban, you should be familiar with the speed of a psychic's thoughts vs speedsters.


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

"Lovers in League Against Satan"


----------



## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)




----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 21, 2012)

I will probably sit down and rewatch the whole SPN after it ends

yeah


----------



## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> "Lovers in League Against Satan"


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

They have way too much fun making the show.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

> Ban, you should be familiar with the speed of a psychic's thoughts vs speedsters.



I most certainly am.

Which is why we've longed waved this point in the other thread that made this match up irrelevant




Alas I am a slave to my post count


----------



## Judas (Feb 21, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> They have way too much fun making the show.


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Reaction speed can still be irellivant against being who see time as fluid.

Also last one

"This is Hell, not Wallstreet. We have integrity..."


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

I see water as fluid, doesn't mean I can blitz Arlong


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I see water as fluid, doesn't mean I can blitz Arlong



What I'm saying is since they see down the line, couldnt Lucifer know that he's gonna get mind fucked like 5 minuts before it happens and be ready for it? He could jump into the future, freeze time, etc.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

Then I have bfr'ed myself away


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

I changed my post, I misread what you were saying.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 21, 2012)

gets countered by shatterpoints


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Not really. If Lucifer is aware of what Luke has in store he has ways of countering it. Many of Lucifers abilities Luke has no way to counter, even if he sees it comming. Plus it's not the same as experiencing a future moment, and being able to approach it at your leisure.


----------



## Orochibuto (Feb 21, 2012)

Isnt the Cambion > Lucifer? Being the most powerful reality warper bar God?


----------



## Ulti (Feb 21, 2012)

Was gonna say, the 6 year old who could end Heaven if he wanted to


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Idk if that kid was > Lucifer really, at least not yet, although he had some crazy hax. Not sure how he was that powerful though, only being a half human half demon...


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 21, 2012)

I haven't finished reading through this thread yet but I already know by the OP that the Warsies are scaling telapathy by the number of people effected. That's not a feat on power just range

Anyway Luke wastes time trying to break into Lucifer's mind and probably gets exploded.

I'll come back with a more definitive take when I finish reading the thread


----------



## Amae (Feb 21, 2012)

That doesn't make much sense. Why wouldn't the number of people effected not be a feat of power? Range would be how far they can extend their telepathic range.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 21, 2012)

If you are mentally reaching out over an entire planet that's range, you can't stack one undefended mind over and over again you aren't flexing power at all that way. Its like saying someone touching the mind of every person on the planet means that this person can only be challenged by someone with comparable range which just isn't true at all.

Anyway yeah I caught up with the thread I think timeloops and timestopping would be too much for Luke Shatterpoints ain't helping him if there's no way around an inevitable outcome.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 21, 2012)

Mind raping two people simultaneously takes more power than mind raping one. Seems simple enough to me.


----------



## Gone (Feb 21, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Mind raping two people simultaneously takes more power than mind raping one. Seems simple enough to me.



I kinda see what hes saying. To high end force users mind raping somebody with no mental resistance takes almost no effort, its like stabbing somebody with no armor. I mean it still takes more effort to do to more people, but not nearly as much as if each of them had their own mental defence.


----------



## Herekic (Feb 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Cosmic intent?
> 
> Funny how Palpatine soul-fucked a planet and its population which is literally 2000 times greater then anything shown by Supernatural top-tiers when it comes to soul-manipulation. Telepathy? They have no defenses around people who can replicate that or greater, you know like Luke mind-linking into the minds of tens of thousands of Clone Troopers across the range of a star system or mind-controlling other Jedi and Force-Users across the galaxy and through dimensions.
> 
> ...





They can communicate with him. not, you know, mindfuck him. not the same thing. 


The only reason anyone, ever, can speak to an angel is when they intentionally bring themselves down to the level of physical beings.

even when in heaven, as souls, humans could not in the LEAST comprehend the angels. 

So, again, tell me how they are going to mindfuck something with minds nothing at all like anything they usually deal with?

and whats more, show me palpatine or luke casually mindfucking a being with, you know, actual RESISTANCE to it. wiping a whole planet is very impressive, but none of those beings had any actual defense from that sort of thing.


how many times has palpatine casually soulfucked a jedi, or other decent force user?


if he could, why didin't he just wipe the jedi order out by himself? pretty sure there are alot less then a "trillion" jedi


----------



## Fang (Feb 21, 2012)

Amae said:


> That doesn't make much sense. Why wouldn't the number of people effected not be a feat of power? Range would be how far they can extend their telepathic range.



Yeah, it is.

General way of rating telepathy:

- range or distance
- scope of influence
- versatility 
- other

Charles Xavier would be:

Range - Universal (I think, he's at least galactic) as well as multi-dimensional
Scope of Influence - Planetary+ (equal or above Emma Frost, capable of even projecting illusions into Galactus' mind)
Versatility - Telepathy, ESP, Astral projections, illusions, etc...

He would be a 10 as perfect telepath.

Luke would be a 9, his range is lower but similar overall, his influence is above planetary (resisting and countering telepathic battles with entire races with Force amping and hive-mind psyche) and versatility beats out Xavier because he has precognition, clairvoyance, ESP, danger senses, illusions, etc... 

The match is already simple enough between me, Ulti, Ban, and Judas, no need to worry about certain "others" beating the dead horse.


----------



## Herekic (Feb 22, 2012)

Fang said:


> Yeah, it is.
> 
> General way of rating telepathy:
> 
> ...




Again I need to point out the fact(that you've been dodging) that angels minds are alien and their minds are not even in the slightest akin to those of physical lifeforms.


though even if he could mindhax them, he'd need to do it before lucifer could do...well, anything. lucifer can obliterate luke just by thinking about it. 


So, your basic argument is that luke will:

be able to immediately mindrape the giant reality bending mass of cosmic force so throughly that lucifer won't be able to make the extremely minimal effort needed to reality warp luke out of existence. 


he will, in a fraction of the slightest instant, mindrape a being hundreds of millions of years old(castiel predated life on earth, and he is younger than lucifer) and stop him from being able to do ANYTHING.


He will also somehow negate lucifer's ability to casually manipulate time(ie, the ability to make speed meaningless), by somehow being faster than a being who can literally change time to his whim(even a weaker angel like gabriel could effortlessly bend the timestream)



Nice logic there. 



you heard it here folks: luke is faster than time itself.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 22, 2012)

Herekic said:


> you heard it here folks: luke is faster than time itself.



I'm glad you finally saw the light


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 22, 2012)

Time isn't constant you know... Which is why things like time dilation exist. Might want to come up with a better straw man than that.


----------



## Herekic (Feb 22, 2012)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Time isn't constant you know... Which is why things like time dilation exist. Might want to come up with a better straw man than that.






....The fuck?


What do the intricacies of time have to do with luke somehow being able to outspeed time itself?


and as I said, lucifer can make time his bitch. it's as constant as he wants it to be.


If gabriel, who was weaker/less experienced than lucifer could casually create a timeloop(while subtly manipulating it at the same time to keep killing dean in different ways) I'm pretty sure lucifer could make it pretty "constant"


It absolutely baffles the mind how you people keep applying things like speed to a being that can Literally *ignore the laws of physics at will*


Gabriel, again weaker than lucy, could create matter from nothing, create pocket dimensions, manipulate time to a significant degree, manipulate matter to a VERY extreme degree(create wormholes from nowhere, revive the dead, create any outlandish scenario he could think of, etc) and, now this ia a big one:


are almost completely fucking immortal.


We know of EXACTLY 2 ways to kill an arcangel:


1: use an arcangel's spear, a weapon created by god(top tier of his verse) specifically to kill them

2: be destroyed by a being more haxed than themselves. the only case of this we saw was god castiel doing it to Raphael, but raph may also have been weaker than lucy.



During the final ep of the season, micheal(lucy's equal) actually had his body destroyed by holy fire


Didin't matter. he simply reconstructed his vessel and came right back. and again, thats him inside a flesh suit, say nothing of when he's rocking his true, pure energy form.


so, how exactly does luke win this?


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 22, 2012)

Herekic said:


> ....The fuck?
> 
> 
> What do the intricacies of time have to do with luke somehow being able to outspeed time itself?



It's a horrible straw man because it is indeed possible for someone fast enough to move faster than time can flow. Is this hard for you to grasp for some reason?


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 22, 2012)

And while I'm here explain how Raphael and Gabriel got trapped in holy fire or how Raphael got tricked by Cas stealing the blood to open Purgatory if they view time in the manor you suggest.


----------



## Herekic (Feb 22, 2012)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> It's a horrible straw man because it is indeed possible for someone fast enough to move faster than time can flow. Is this hard for you to grasp for some reason?






...are you even aware of what time is, sir?


change. "time" is what we call the ever present change in all things in the universe.


You can't move faster than time because time is every single change ever. you doing anything=movement of time. you are changing and changing other things as you do. this is time.



So, if a person stops time, ie stops the change of all matter, how, exactly, does "speed"(which is simply a part of the changes that make up "time") do,  you know, anything?

if you stop all change, nothing can move. at all. ever.


whats more, the ability to stop time would also give you the ability to make anything, and pay attention because this is important: *ABSOLUTELY INVINCIBLE.*


No change negates the very concept of "damage". even if through some illogical physics breaking idiocy you could still move during a time stop(the total inertness of all matter) you would be able to do JACK SHIT, because aside from you everything else is completely invincible, unmovable, unchangeable. 


Let that sink in. without time, that is, change, nothing can be destroyed, or even damaged, in any way. your ability to ignore the "timestop" is utterly meaningless. all you can do is run around like a moron acomplishing nothing.


----------



## Herekic (Feb 22, 2012)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> And while I'm here explain how Raphael and Gabriel got trapped in holy fire or how Raphael got tricked by Cas stealing the blood to open Purgatory if they view time in the manor you suggest.





I didin't say they view it that way, I said they can MANIPULATE it.


Time in SN is not static. it is ever changing and more or less unknowable. thus how balthazar could alter history(prevent the sinking of the titanic).


but perfectly predicting the future just doesn't work. 


though also aside from that, the arrogance factor is at play too. boh of these beings are used to being totally untouchable by pretty much anything. they have no real concept of being careful. even if they could predict these things, they'd have likely never even bothered to look.


Not that they where ever even in any danger anyways. like I said before, the only two ways we know of to kill an arcangel are to either use the arc spear(which only arcs themselves seem to possess) or be much more powerful than them


even the total destruction of their host body doesn't even phase them.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 22, 2012)

Herekic said:


> You can't move faster than time because time is every single change ever.



[YOUTUBE]xvZfx7iwq94[/YOUTUBE]

Watch and learn. If we could go faster than light time would loose all meaning.


----------



## Herekic (Feb 22, 2012)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> [YOUTUBE]xvZfx7iwq94[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Watch and learn. If we could go faster than light time would loose all meaning.





All of my facepalms.


Again, when you are dealing with DIRECT MANIPULATION OF TIME, as in, the ability to stop it, everything goes out the window.


Time is not a substance or some kind of force like gravity or magnetism. 


it is an idea. it exists entirely in our heads. the ability to stop or otherwise control "time" is, in fact, an extremely high level of matter manipulation. all time is being a record of change. the ability to alter "time" = the ability to control matter.


if you force all matter to be totally static, that is, prevent any and all change, you "stop time"


it's impossible to be immune to this, because even if you are moving omgsupergodly fast, you are still matter. if mr. matter controller says u no change, then u no change.


unless moving at high speeds transforms you into some kind of theoretical otherworldly force, you'd still get "timestopped" no matter how fast you where.


though, again as I said in my last post, take away ALL OF THAT. forget about it being impossible to move in a "time stop"


Say you can move. against all logic, your hax speed lets you move outside of "time"


Well, unfortunately for you, it means jack shit. everything else is still time stopped, that is, change-locked.


As I explained before, no change=the very concept of damage disappears. 


great, you can move around being super awesome. you still can't do jack shit to win the fight, because everything that is not you is literally invincible. 

Timestop=no change. no change=nothing can be harmed, ever. at best it's a stalemate, at worst you die of old age/exhaustion, because you are so OMG SO SUPER GODLY FAST that your changes never stop or slow down.


Time is relative? sure. and you better hope to fuck you're immortal, because that means you are going to burn out really, really....fast.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 22, 2012)

Way to miss the point, Fang already said Luke had no counter for time stop.


Fang said:


> Nah I meant Luke doesn't have a counter to time-stopping



I was saying your straw man was moronic because it IS entirely possible to move so fast time looses all meaning. Maybe you should learn reading comprehension.


----------



## Gone (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok I know this is off topic again, but when we were all talking about swag earlier I can't believe nobody mentioned Cas delivering the best line in the entire series!

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6nCBQXJdRg[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Ulti (Feb 22, 2012)

Lucifer argubly and very likely has planetary telepathy, I mean the Alphas seemed capable of projecting their telepathy to their 'children' all over the US and likely the world, granted that's probably because they were connected in some kind of hivemind. But then you have Eve who can do it with all monsters, she mind raped them into giving in to their animalistic urges like Lenore.

Dunno if Eve is above Lucifer or not though, it isn't very clear as she didn't show much in feats that would put her at that level but hype arugbly does so I guess... plus Lucifer's astral projection, illusions etc: could probably reach Sam or Nick or whoever no matter where they were.

But still this probably isn't enough to mentally contend with Luke and Fang is right it is beating a dead horse.


----------



## Judas (Feb 22, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Lucifer argubly and very likely has planetary telepathy, I mean the Alphas seemed capable of projecting their telepathy to their 'children' all over the US and likely the world, granted that's probably because they were connected in some kind of hivemind. But then you have Eve who can do it with all monsters, she mind raped them into giving in to their animalistic urges like Lenore.
> 
> Dunno if Eve is above Lucifer or not though, it isn't very clear as she didn't show much in feats that would put her at that level but hype arugbly does so I guess... plus Lucifer's astral projection, illusions etc: could probably reach Sam or Nick or whoever no matter where they were.
> 
> But still this probably isn't enough to mentally contend with Luke and Fang is right it is beating a dead horse.



I wouldn't put it beyond Lucifer to have planetary range telepathy. The guy's mere appearance on Earth caused the temperature to fluctuate on a global scale. Then you also have Castiel allowing Sam and Dean to retain their memories from an erased timeline. And finally you have a simple hallucination of Lucifer mind fucking Sam as we speak despite the fact that Lucifer is locked in the Cage.


*Spoiler*: _Next episode spoiler_ 



Hell, from what I've seen, Sam is in a fucking psych ward.


----------



## Ulti (Feb 22, 2012)

The guy was causing widespread diasasters and disease with his mere release so yeah, also Sam's soul is damn strong, if it was in the cage for all that time and was being attacked by Lucifer and Michael out of sheer frustration, two life wipers/planetbusters...

I mean jesus christ.


----------



## Gone (Feb 22, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Lucifer argubly and very likely has planetary telepathy, I mean the Alphas seemed capable of projecting their telepathy to their 'children' all over the US and likely the world, granted that's probably because they were connected in some kind of hivemind. But then you have Eve who can do it with all monsters, she mind raped them into giving in to their animalistic urges like Lenore.
> 
> Dunno if Eve is above Lucifer or not though, it isn't very clear as she didn't show much in feats that would put her at that level but hype arugbly does so I guess... plus Lucifer's astral projection, illusions etc: could probably reach Sam or Nick or whoever no matter where they were.
> 
> But still this probably isn't enough to mentally contend with Luke and Fang is right it is beating a dead horse.



Eve was so fucking anticlimactic...

Anyway she was able to casualy supress Castiels powers just by him being in the same town as her. And at that point Cas had taken in 50,000 souls from Hell, putting him around the same level as Raphiel (not sure if he hung on to the souls after angelpwning Ralph or not though). So assuming Eve was > angels, maybe archangels, she could be the same level as Lucifer.


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## Herekic (Feb 22, 2012)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Way to miss the point, Fang already said Luke had no counter for time stop.
> 
> 
> I was saying your straw man was moronic because it IS entirely possible to move so fast time looses all meaning. Maybe you should learn reading comprehension.





Except that is only against NORMAL perceptions of time.  not against a being who can actually manipulate it.


If you could read, you may have surmised when I explained it up there that it is IMPOSSIBLE to escape a time manipulator's power, while being a physical being. 

This is because the ability to stop/otherwise control time would actually be the ability to have complete dominance over all matter. unless you move so fast you stop being matter, then no, you cannot go outside "time" when somebody is controlling it.



Your entire argument hinges on the normal flow of "time", mine was specifically refering to time when it is being manipulated in unatural ways. 


Please try to pay attention before you throw around words like "strawman".


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## Fang (Feb 22, 2012)

Stop going on with the nonsensical red herrings. You have literally completely missed UD's point and harping with more strawmen arguments no one made in the first place.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 22, 2012)

I feel bad for Supernatural fans, getting Raigen-effected like this

truly a tragedy


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## Judas (Feb 22, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I feel bad for Supernatural fans, getting Raigen-effected like this
> 
> truly a tragedy



                      .


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## Ulti (Feb 22, 2012)

Nah, raigen effect can be a lot worse

Wincest anyone?


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## Banhammer (Feb 22, 2012)

What the fuck did I just read


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 22, 2012)

Wincest or Destiel


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## Banhammer (Feb 22, 2012)

Lucisam is the new destiel


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 22, 2012)

there's also Weecest which is Wincest, but with wee!Dean & Sam (kids)

but that's too sick even for me =/


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## Gone (Feb 22, 2012)

JoEllen anyone?


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## Banhammer (Feb 22, 2012)

This thread is now internet


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## Judas (Feb 23, 2012)

Pretty much.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Feb 23, 2012)

Luke seems to have a shit ton of impressive mental abilities...those feats came from the Movies or EU?


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## Endless Mike (Feb 23, 2012)

Kami Tenchi said:


> Luke seems to have a shit ton of impressive mental abilities...those feats came from the Movies or EU?



Obviously the movies, as those cover the period where he just learned to use his powers and not later when he got stronger...


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## Gone (Feb 24, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW7A0MfuduA[/YOUTUBE]


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## Ulti (Feb 24, 2012)

They reference star wars all the time 

hell they reference everything.


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## Gone (Feb 24, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> They reference star wars all the time
> 
> hell they reference everything.



Yea I know, I just thought that one was funny considering this thread.


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## Nevermind (Feb 24, 2012)

Kami Tenchi said:


> Luke seems to have a shit ton of impressive mental abilities...those feats came from the Movies or EU?



Are you ever gonna make a good post?


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## Ulti (Feb 24, 2012)

'is x multiversal?'

'how powerfu-'


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## Havoc (Feb 24, 2012)

Lucifer wins.

Lock this.


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## Hale (Feb 24, 2012)

Im not sold on luke being able to mindrape an angel as was pointed about before their minds are so farm from normal that their talking sounded like garbled radio noise even barring the your mind will melt if you make contact because luke's mental abilities are so much greater to mind rape lucifer he'd have to be able to immediately comprehend lucifer's mind in the time it takes for him to figure that out lucifer has a variety of ways to end luke


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## Gone (Feb 24, 2012)

Hale said:


> Im not sold on luke being able to mindrape an angel as was pointed about before their minds are so farm from normal that their talking sounded like garbled radio noise even barring the your mind will melt if you make contact because luke's mental abilities are so much greater to mind rape lucifer he'd have to be able to immediately comprehend lucifer's mind in the time it takes for him to figure that out lucifer has a variety of ways to end luke



Angels minds are stronger than humans as well. Most humans go insane after a few months in Hell, and Lucifer was trapped there for thousands of years and came out fine.

Theres also the fact that if Luke happsn to glimpse Lucifers true face while attacking his mind his eyes will melt.


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## Hale (Feb 25, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Angels minds are stronger than humans as well. Most humans go insane after a few months in Hell, and Lucifer was trapped there for thousands of years and came out fine.
> 
> Theres also the fact that if Luke happsn to glimpse Lucifers true face while attacking his mind his eyes will melt.



Thats true i dont know how much being stronger would help because there's no way to know how much stronger they area since the verse basically goes humans demons angels and the power gap between even regular angels and arch angels is insane... What im really hung on is if luke is going to be able to comprehend and angels mind to rape them


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