# Cracker vs Aokiji



## ThatGreekLady (Dec 11, 2016)

Now we all know Cracker eventually loses. 

The question is what would the difficulty be?


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## Freechoice (Dec 11, 2016)

Low mid diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 11, 2016)

Biscuits get frozen, Cracker gets frozen to. 

Low-mid like freechoice said


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## giantbiceps (Dec 11, 2016)

Aokiji makes Crackie his bitch


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## Amol (Dec 11, 2016)

Solid mid diff                    .


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## Nekochako (Dec 11, 2016)

Mid diff for the iceman.


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## Lord Stark (Dec 11, 2016)

Lower diff than when he owned Joz honestly.


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## Gohara (Dec 12, 2016)

It can go either way IMO, although I would lean towards Aokiji winning more often than not.  However, that's mostly just because I'm giving the Admirals the benefit of the doubt against Lord Cracker, which I'm mainly doing because Lord Cracker is likely either the 3rd or 4th most powerful Yonkou Commander of his Yonkou Crew.  So I'm just assuming that the Admirals would in most cases best a Yonkou Commander ranked below the 2nd most powerful Member of a Yonkou Crew.

In terms of feats and portrayal, I can't think of a reason that I would give Aokiji the decisive edge.  Lord Cracker has fought on par with Luffy, which suggests that he's not only around Luffy's level of power but also around Doflamingo's level of power.  Doflamingo and Luffy both have the feats, portrayal, and skill to suggest that they're around or close to Admiral level as well.

As for Aokiji just freezing Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers, Doflamingo is powerful enough to break out of Aokiji's Ice Abilities, and again Lord Cracker seems to be around Doflamingo's level of power.  So I'm not convinced that Aokiji can simply best Lord Cracker based on freezing his Biscuit Soldiers.  Even then, Lord Cracker can regenerate his Biscuit Soldiers.

Still, I would give Aokiji the edge more often than not.  Although, I don't see Aokiji besting Lord Cracker with any less than around high difficulty if not high to extremely high difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 12 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## trance (Dec 14, 2016)

Aokiji after a decent struggle

Reactions: Like 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 14, 2016)

Freechoice said:


> Low mid diff


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## ShadoLord (Dec 14, 2016)

Aokiji low-diffs Cracker. 

can't do shit when he freezes his ass all over the place.


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## Gohara (Dec 15, 2016)

The thing is, though, how do we know that Lord Cracker can't just break out of the ice?  Doflamingo is the most relevant of comparisons to make to a character around Lord Cracker's level of power, and he's shown that he can break out of Aokiji's ice.

I'm not necessarily saying that Lord Cracker can break out of all of Aokiji's techniques, I just don't see what evidence there is to suggest that he clearly can't when we've seen characters of his level able to break out of them.

Outside of that, I'm not sure how Aokiji would best Lord Cracker.  Luffy is physically stronger and faster than Aokiji, and even his physical strength and speed weren't enough to best Lord Cracker.  So the only way that I can see Aokiji besting Lord Cracker is if we assume that Lord Cracker can't break out of Aokiji's techniques, but again there's reason to believe that it's a legitimate possibility that he can.  Even then, Lord Cracker can create more Biscuit Soldiers.  So it would basically be about who runs out of energy first.  We don't know how much stamina Lord Cracker has but we do know that Aokiji has a lot of stamina.  However, we don't know which techniques require more energy.  So if Lord Cracker can't break out of Aokiji's techniques and assuming that their Abilities require a similar amount of energy, I would lean towards Aokiji winning.  However, that requires multiple assumptions- Lord Cracker not being able to break out of Aokiji's techniques and their Abilities requiring a similar amount of energy- to be true.

Again, I like to think that Aokiji would win more often than not, but I'm curious what evidence there is?  I'm just assuming that Aokiji would win more often than not.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Dec 15, 2016)

lol at using the doflamingo feat.

he managed to escape a very casual, hands in pockets flash freeze from aokiji. If aokiji wanted doflamingo dead, he'd be dead. He'd use his hands like he did against jozu, and even if Doffy could escape from the more serious moves, it was shown to us that there was a significant time that he was trapped in ice, enough for Aokiji to smash the more brittle frozen state.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HawkEye13 (Dec 15, 2016)

Low diff 
These biscuits won't do shit. Aokiji crippled and made Jozu his bitch and Jozu would beat Cracker

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Pocalypse (Dec 15, 2016)

HawkEye13 said:


> Low diff
> These biscuits won't do shit. Aokiji crippled and made Jozu his bitch and Jozu would beat Cracker



Not everything is about tier listing lol

Matchups come into play, like how Nami made Cracker her bitch.


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## Dellinger (Dec 15, 2016)

Doflamingo barely escaped Aokiji completely freezing him so I don't see why some guys bring it up.Oh it's freaking Gohara nevermind.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dellinger (Dec 15, 2016)

Gohara said:


> It can go either way IMO, although I would lean towards Aokiji winning more often than not.  However, that's mostly just because I'm giving the Admirals the benefit of the doubt against Lord Cracker, which I'm mainly doing because Lord Cracker is likely either the 3rd or 4th most powerful Yonkou Commander of his Yonkou Crew.  So I'm just assuming that the Admirals would in most cases best a Yonkou Commander ranked below the 2nd most powerful Member of a Yonkou Crew.
> 
> In terms of feats and portrayal, I can't think of a reason that I would give Aokiji the decisive edge.  Lord Cracker has fought on par with Luffy, which suggests that he's not only around Luffy's level of power but also around Doflamingo's level of power.  Doflamingo and Luffy both have the feats, portrayal, and skill to suggest that they're around or close to Admiral level as well.
> 
> ...


Seriously are you stupid?At which exact point has DOflamingo and Luffy received portrayal close to an Admiral?Fujitora would have completely destroyed the whole Straw Hat alliance and the moment he got serious,Luffy got treated like a fucking bitch.

Aokiji made Doflamingo his bitch with his damn hands in his pockets.That's the portrayal Doflamingo has compared to Aokiji.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Dislike 1


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## Gohara (Dec 16, 2016)

"Aokiji wasn't being serious"

"Aokiji would have won if they had a match up"

"Aokiji owned Doflamingo"

"Doflamingo barely broke out of the ice"

With all due respect to you both, these are subjective and assumptive points.  All we know is that Aokiji tried to freeze Doflamingo but Doflamingo broke out of the ice.  All we know is that Lord Cracker is comparable to Doflamingo in terms of power.

I would also argue against those points.

-Aokiji not always needing to use his hands to freeze a character has nothing to do with his actual intent as far as we know.

-I respectfully disagree that Aokiji clearly would have won if they had a match up.  I'm not disagreeing that Aokiji can defeat Doflamingo, just that it's _clear_ that he can 10 times out of 10.  However, that's besides the point.  The point is how does Aokiji defeat Lord Cracker, and the only suggestion I've seen is freezing him, but we've already seen a Lord Cracker level character break out of Aokiji's ice.

-As for the other two points, how do we determine whether someone barely breaks out of ice and when they break out of it normally?  To me it seemed like he broke out of it without much of a problem because he just smiled and laughed at Aokiji.  Which is also why I respectfully disagree that Aokiji looked better in that match up.  All that happened was Aokiji tried to freeze Doflamingo and Doflamingo broke out of the ice and laughed at Aokiji.  Neither seemed to have the decisive edge over the other.

As for what Luffy and Doflamingo have shown to be considered around or close to Admiral level:

-Rayleigh implied that Luffy shouldn't go to The New World if he can't fend off a combined invasion of Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many Marines.  Yet he was okay with Luffy going to The New World around half a year ago.  Current Luffy should be significantly more powerful than that version of Luffy.  What fending off that invasion entails is debatable but surely we can agree that if an Admiral can defeat Luffy with low to mid difficulty or less in an individual match up, it's unlikely that Luffy would be able to fend off that combined invasion.  I would even question whether Luffy could do so if he can't even give an Admiral more than around mid difficulty.  Based on Rayleigh's statement it would be pretty unlikely for an Admiral to defeat Current Luffy with any less than around high difficulty if even that.

-Luffy's physical strength, speed, and Devil Fruit Abilities are all comparable to and in some cases superior to most if not all of the Admirals.  Feats wise no Admiral has shown to have as much physical strength as Luffy.  A battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy even overpowered Fujitora.  Speed is debatable when you compare Luffy and Kizaru, but Luffy's speed feats are superior to the other Admirals', possibly even significantly so.  Luffy like the Admirals has some of the most powerful Devil Fruit Abilities in the series.  Luffy's defense is also usually better than almost all characters within a league of power above him.  So outside of stamina Luffy's defense is likely superior to the Admirals' with the possible exception of Pre Time Skip Akainu.  So that mostly leaves combat ability and Haki.  I would give the Admirals the edge in those categories, although in terms of Haki I'm mainly comparing them to beginning of Post Time Skip Luffy.  I'm not sure how good Luffy's Haki is compared to theirs currently.  Looking at all those stats, the Admirals don't seem decisively superior to Luffy.  If you disagree feel free to throw out any evidence suggesting that their physical strength, defense, and speed are all superior to Luffy's.

-A battle worn Luffy who mostly only used Gear 2nd fought on par with Fujitora.  Granted, the match up was brief, but Fujitora was sweating and had dirt marks.  While I don't consider that enough to say that Luffy had the edge, it says a lot that Luffy could still do that while battle worn and not using anywhere near his full power.  This should go even more so for you White Hawk considering how big of a deal you've made Sabo sweating and having brief dirt marks against Fujitora out to be.  I'm fairly certain that I've seen you suggest that Fujitora owned Sabo just because of that so certainly you can't rightfully brush aside a battle worn Gear 2nd Luffy doing the same to Fujitora.  Either way, my point is if Fujitora is significantly more powerful than a fully healed Gear 4th Luffy, it seems strange that a battle worn Gear 2nd Luffy would be able to do anything against Fujitora.

-Doflamingo, like the Admirals, excels in virtually all categories.  Outside of Pre Time Skip Akainu being physically stronger and Kizaru being faster, there isn't much evidence that the Admirals best Doflamingo in any category.  Again, though, feel free to throw out any evidence suggesting otherwise.

-Fujitora, even with help, was unable to consistently stop- let alone destroy- Doflamingo's Bird Cage technique.  Even Fujitora's Meteors, which are his most powerful techniques, were destroyed by Doflamingo's Bird Cage technique.  So in an actual match up what's preventing Doflamingo from using Bird Cage against Fujitora?

-Doflamingo has shown no fear of the Admirals when face to face with them, and it's not like Doflamingo doesn't show fear of characters significantly more powerful than him, because we've seen him do so with Kaidou.  We also know that Doflamingo can break out of Aokiji's ice.  Also, just to preempt the arguments, Aokiji isn't a Marine so he has no reason to be worried about Doflamingo knowing some of The World Government's secrets.  Even if Aokiji was a Marine, an Admiral would defend themselves if they were being assaulted, and Doflamingo knows that.  Yet Doflamingo had no issue starting a match up with Fujitora.

We've also seen around a handful of confrontations and match ups between high level Yonkou Commander level characters and Admirals that were relatively even and in some cases in the favor if the high level Yonkou Commander level characters.  So not only do the two most directly power relevant characters to Lord Cracker have similar portrayal to the Admirals but so do around a handful of other characters comparable to Lord Cracker in terms of power.  Again, I like to think that Aokiji bests Lord Cracker more often than not, but from a pure evidence standpoint there isn't anything clearly suggesting that to be the case- and I think that's why after a lot of posts have been made about it not a single one includes evidence of this- mostly just claims that Aokiji would win by freezing the Biscuit Soldiers but again that claim is unsubstantiated.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 16, 2016)

I don't know why you bother Gohara. They won't respond with actual manga evidence. They will just react with incredulity and appeal to ''Admirals are the Navy's greatest power''.

This Aokiji fanfiction is hilarious. The guy himself told  Smoker to tell Sakazuki to dispatch *Admirals* to Dressrosa.* Not one but more than one*. That's just the manga though and that's just Kuzan talking. He must be delusional.

Like you also noted Dofla planned on killing Fujitora. He saw what the admirals are capable of at MF and came to that conclusion. He has shown fear towards Kaido so we know he wasn't cocky when he made the Fuji assessment.

Cracker and Dofla have shown similar feats so this is a high to extreme diff fight. Cracker should be stronger in cqc while Aokiji has a hax aoe df advantage.



White Hawk said:


> Seriously are you stupid?At which exact point has DOflamingo and Luffy received portrayal close to an Admiral?*Fujitora would have completely destroyed the whole Straw Hat alliance and the moment he got serious,Luffy got treated like a fucking bitch.*
> 
> Aokiji made Doflamingo his bitch with his damn hands in his pockets.That's the portrayal Doflamingo has compared to Aokiji.



Fujitora had to resort to his devil fruit in cqc against a tired G2/3 Luffy. That's just the manga though. That's a Fujitora that said he was serious btw. Luffy didn't use one named move in G2 or 3 much less G4. So a Luffy that wasn't even trying that hard and shouting out his attacks got treated like a bitch? lul

I'm sure the rubble would kill them like the meteor killed Sabo, Law and Doflamingo right? Never mind that the rubble is far less dense than a meteor.

-Luffy can't clear a path through the rubble with an elephant gun gatling like with Noah?
-Luffy can't fly away in G4 or use Kong Gun or KKG to clear the rubble?
- Law can't make a room and teleport them away?
-Zoro can't slice a path for them?
-Bart can't make a shield to protect from the rubble?

If your whole body is made out of ice does that mean using your hands makes you attack faster? Never mind that Dofla broke out of it seconds later.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 16, 2016)

Cracker stronger then Aokiji in CQC

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## Seraphoenix (Dec 16, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Cracker stronger then Aokiji in CQC



Yes let's not rely on the actual manga. It's really strange that you and @Admiral Kizaru are in this cult (Admiral) but you won't read the ''bible''(manga)  so to speak.

If Fujitora being serious can do nothing to a non-serious Luffy in cqc, while a serious Luffy got overpowered by Cracker in G2/3, then Kuzan has little chance against Cracker in cqc. He has not been shown to have strength above the other admirals.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 16, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yes let's not rely on the actual manga. It's really strange that you and @Admiral Kizaru are in this cult (Admiral) but you won't read the ''bible''(manga)  so to speak.
> 
> If Fujitora being serious can do nothing to a non-serious Luffy in cqc, while a serious Luffy got overpowered by Cracker in G2/3, then Kuzan has little chance against Cracker in cqc. He has not been shown to have strength above the other admirals.



The man that jumps in front of the Worlds strongest man to fight him, the man that takes a sneak attack to the face from one of the most physically strong characters in the manga(Jozu) and comes out with a bloody lip, the man that fought akainu for 10 days(Akainu being the man who stopped a Quake infused Bisento Swing from the WSM with his foot), his fellow admiral kizaru can fight the Pirate kings first mate in pure swordsmanship(kizaru is not a swordsmen) without losing any ground. Your telling me that Aokiji is inferior to a guy in cqc that actively goes out of his way to avoid fighting himself. So much so that the World government does not even know what he looks like. There is more but you get the point.

I said all that just in case you do not know how ridiculous you sound. 

Aokiji is faster then Cracker, stronger then cracker, has better haki then cracker, is a shit ton more durable then cracker, and has a shit ton more endurance then cracker. Goes without saying his hype and portrayal are way above him as well. Only Advantage cracker has is his sword in terms of attack power if we are disregarding DF powers. As obviously Aokiji can one shot pretty much anyone with his devil fruit if he gets a good grip on you.

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## Bernkastel (Dec 16, 2016)

Mid diff at most.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 16, 2016)

Our cult .........  







Join up today OL!! You get a free "Admiral Wanking" handbook when you sign up. All we ask for in return is a tribute of 20 favourable Admiral wanking posts a month and 60 likes of posts from fellow cult members.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4 | Winner 3


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## trance (Dec 16, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> Cracker should be stronger in cqc



To be at least a bit fair to the ice man?

He's comparable to Kizaru who can duel Rayleigh to a standstill and I'm willing to believe an argument can be made for Rayleigh being as strong as or stronger than Cracker in cqc


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 16, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> The man that jumps in front of the Worlds strongest man to fight him, the man that takes a sneak attack to the face from one of the most physically strong characters in the manga(Jozu) and comes out with a bloody lip, the man that fought akainu for 10 days(Akainu being the man who stopped a Quake infused Bisento Swing from the WSM with his foot), his fellow admiral kizaru can fight the Pirate kings first mate in pure swordsmanship(kizaru is not a swordsmen) without losing any ground. Your telling me that Aokiji is inferior to a guy in cqc that actively goes out of his way to avoid fighting himself. So much so that the World government does not even know what he looks like. There is more but you get the point.



Yes yes we have all seen what the Admirals could do to 20% deathbed WB (Who still 2 shot Akainu when bloodlusted). You are relying on feats that have no common denominator with Cracker and Fujitora.

You are relying on dogma at this point. We have actual post-skip feats from an Admiral and a Commander with someone who fought both (Luffy). Serious G2/3 Luffy got overpowered by Cracker. Non-serious G2/3 Luffy went even with a serious Issho who had to use his fruit to get an advantage. You're like someone who ignores the new testament and just chants Yahweh.





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I said all that just in case you do not know how ridiculous you sound.



It's ridiculous because you are ignoring what happened after the time-skip. This thread is about Cracker. Save your 20% deathbed WB stories for someone else pls. Kizaru-kun was overpowered by Marco and by your own admission WB didn't overpower Kizaru.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *Aokiji is faster then Cracker, stronger then cracker, has better haki then cracker, is a shit ton more durable then cracker, and has a shit ton more endurance then cracker.* Goes without saying his hype and portrayal are way above him as well. Only Advantage cracker has is his sword in terms of attack power if we are disregarding DF powers. As obviously Aokiji can one shot pretty much anyone with his devil fruit if he gets a good grip on you.



None of that fairy tale is backed up by manga feats. I didn't see Aokiji speedblitz anyone or overpower a Commander with pure strength.  How do you post such unfounded rubbish with a straight face?





Admiral Kizaru said:


> Our cult .........
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes Kizaru-kun. In every thread even vaguely related to an Admiral I find myself going 1v10. There are too many soldiers on your side getting dispatched 



Kyouko said:


> To be at least a bit fair to the ice man?
> 
> He's comparable to Kizaru who can duel Rayleigh to a standstill and I'm willing to believe an argument can be made for Rayleigh being as strong as or stronger than Cracker in cqc



This might have been a good argument if we didn't have post-skip feats. 

Regarding what you said I would raise one point:

-That was a Rayleigh that had not touched a sword in 20 years. Atrophy of skill is a thing and he didn't have the stamina of a top tier. We also don't have any comparison between that Rayleigh and a Commander. The only argument you would have to rely on is FM of PK hype. This would be valid I think if he didn't have the previous mentioned limitations.


Regarding the post-skip feats we have a common person (G2/3 Luffy) fighting an Admiral and a Commander. Against the Admiral he was battle-worn and not serious while the Admiral was serious. Against the Commander he was serious. The Commander overpowered him while the Admiral could not until he resorted to his DF.

You would have to argue that not only is Aokiji stronger than Fujitora in cqc but he is stronger than Cracker as well. That to me seems a bit unrealistic as Aokiji didn't have any strength feats putting him above his former colleagues.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 16, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yes yes we have all seen what the Admirals could do to 20% deathbed WB (Who still 2 shot Akainu when bloodlusted). You are relying on feats that have no common denominator with Cracker and Fujitora.



Ah yes the WB was super weak argument 

Which is irrelevant because regardless of how weakened WB was his feats in the war still shit on Cracker and based on said feats would steamroll the fuck out of cracker if they fought.



> You are relying on dogma at this point. We have actual post-skip feats from an Admiral and a Commander with someone who fought both (Luffy). Serious G2/3 Luffy got overpowered by Cracker. Non-serious G2/3 Luffy went even with a serious Issho who had to use his fruit to get an advantage. You're like someone who ignores the new testament and just chants Yahweh.



Not really what i posted was feats that various Admirals have performed not just hype and portryal which obviously goes to Aokiji. Said Feats are significantly better then Crackers. Aokijis speed feats are way better then Crackers, his endurance and durability feats are way better then crackers, and his fellow admirals also have feats that shit on cracker in all aspects. Nothing points to Cracker being able to outpace Aokiji in CQC. Beating up a G2/G3 luffy which Doflamingo did with ease is not enough.

We already had the fuji argument before. He was not going all out in anyway. Being serious does not mean putting forth max effort. Mihawk was serious in Marineford and did barley anything to luffy. I guess Mihawk loses to Cracker in CQC as well seeing as how G4 luffy is literally 100 times stronger then Marineford luffy. Regardless im talking about Aokiji, you believing Fuji has feats that suggest he could lose to Cracker in CqC does not negate Aokijis feats that suggest he would win.

I have way more feats on my side. All you have is Fuji vs Luffy. Your putting forth the notion that fuji vs luffy invalidates all previous feats that the Admirals have which is ridiculous. Luffy has a crap ton of shit feats but you never saw anyone say Monet>G2 Luffy or even Base Luffy why? Cause despite his lack luster performance agasint her Luffy has feats that suggest he is actually stronger then monet by quite a bit as well as hype and portrayal. Did Fuji look super amazing agasint Luffy no, but oda was writing a narrative a narrative that luffy is now ready to fight he is tierd of running away. That narrative looks pretty stupid if Fuji shit stomps Luffy with no effort. Fuji in the same arc has feats of standing on equal ground to Sabo a CQC expert who is more certainly much stronger then G2/G3 Luffy when in comes to hand to hand combat ability. 

So no Fuji vs Luffy does not invalidate Aokiji/Kizaru/Akainu feats, hype, and portrayal.






> It's ridiculous because you are ignoring what happened after the time-skip. This thread is about Cracker. Save your 20% deathbed WB stories for someone else pls. Kizaru-kun was overpowered by Marco and by your own admission WB didn't overpower Kizaru.



What are you even going on about now. Are you honestly still trying to devalue feats against the World Strongest man in order to hype up the feats of G2/G3 Luffy has been nothing but unimpressive since the time-skip. I'm not ignoring what happened after the timeskip wtf does that even mean post-skip feats dont invalidate any of the admirals feats. I listed the feats of Aokiji and his fellow admirals which he has been portrayed to be neigh equal to(Akainu/Kizaru).

Marco is the worlds strongest mans first mate and is a zoan user. He is way stronger then Cracker in CQC so not sure how him pushing kizaru(Who was just floating in the air) to the ground doing zero damage helps your argument here.

Yep Kizaru did not lose any ground to WB something Cracker could never dream of doing. Even a WB with a large portion of his head missing fodderized Black-beard someone who soon went on to become a yonkou.




> None of that fairy tale is backed up by manga feats. I didn't see Aokiji speedblitz anyone or overpower a Commander with pure strength.  How do you post such unfounded rubbish with a straight face?




Maybe you need to read the manga again and use some basic Comprehension.

Speed.



Better speed feat then anything Cracker has done

Endurance




Fought Akainu for 10 days and gave him permanent scars. What did Cracker do again oh yea get one shot by a tired G4 Luffy.

durability.
same as above. Took a attack from jozu minor damage. took a kick from marco no damage.

Fellow Admiral Akainu can take a quake from the Worlds Strongest man.

Strength.
He does not have a direct strength feat to use so obviously can't post a manga panel of something that does not exist.
but Kizaru can fight Rayleigh in CQC using rayleighs specialty swordsmanship(With rayleigh being the one getting tierd), Akainu can stop white-beards attack with his foot. 

Call me when Cracker can fight Rayleigh in CqC or do anything but turned into paste by any version of white-beard you might make up. News flash he can't.

Haki.


Got a scratch from Jozu which i already posted
Kizaru also took no damage from a attack by Marco and White-beard.

SO big surprise here(not really) Admirals have better haki then Cracker.

Crackers feats don't support it. His hype and portrayal dame well don't support it. Admirals are going to be fighting it out with Luffy multiple arcs from now. Cracker got one shot by Luffy this arc. Cracker has decent physical stats and haki but his main thing is his defensive powers with his Devil fruit biscuits. In terms of pure CQC he is way weaker then G4 Luffy. Nothing stop Aokiji from freezing the shit out of his biscuits with ease, dodging Crackers sword thrusts and freezing his ass with ice time. If you take there devil fruits away Aokiji is still a monster with one of the best endurance and durability feats in the manga. He easily outlasts Cracker and out does him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Dec 16, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> We also don't have any comparison between that Rayleigh and a Commander.


Rayleigh's feats and hype:
- Garp (the man who bitchslapped Marco out of the sky) was cautious of provoking Rayleigh.
- when Kizaru tried to go after the SHs, Ray was able to intercept and stop Kizaru, which is something that even the likes of Ben Beckman wasn't able to do (inb4 anyone says Ben was stupid enough to leave Kiz alone with the sub).
- was able to go toe to toe with Kizaru in a swordfight. Please remember, the Admirals are physical monsters, both Akainu and Kizaru were able to hold down WB's bisento with one foot.
- despite his old age, he still swam the Calm Belt.

I'm pretty sure that's better than any of Cracker's feats or hype.

OT: Aokiji turns Cracker into an ice sculpture.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NO (Dec 16, 2016)

Aokiji is a strange encounter. Jozu can't break out of his full body freeze, but DD casually flexes out of it, so where does Cracker fit? The DD flexing out of ice feat is a remarkable feat that can't be casually given to all yonko top 3 level pirates. So, let's assume Cracker can't break it?

But that logic is a bit janky for me. Take Parasite, for instance.  Do we just assume nobody breaks out of DD's parasite until we have direct and concrete proof that they're physically stronger than G4 Luffy, the only person who canonically broke out of it? Then Jozu loses to DD 10 out of 10 times? lol

If Cracker can break out of a full body freeze, then we're looking at a mid-high or low-high diff fight for Aokiji since the rest of his stats are pretty good.

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## FakeTaxi1738 (Dec 16, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> Jozu can't break out of his full body freeze, but DD casually flexes out of it,


Aokiji froze Joz with his hands and for Doffy He didnt even touch him.


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## NO (Dec 16, 2016)

FakeTaxi1738 said:


> Aokiji froze Joz with his hands and for Doffy He didnt even touch him.


The OL consensus is that Aokiji's freeze on DD was exactly the same freeze as the one he did on Jozu.


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## trance (Dec 16, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> -That was a Rayleigh that had not touched a sword in 20 years. Atrophy of skill is a thing and he didn't have the stamina of a top tier.



It's true he declined but nonetheless, his proficiency with a sword is still there and he still boasts a great degree of lethality and skill, enough that Garp was wary of him even in his old age



> We also don't have any comparison between that Rayleigh and a Commander. The only argument you would have to rely on is FM of PK hype. This would be valid I think if he didn't have the previous mentioned limitations.



Even as an old man, he's got impressive portrayal and has received a noticeable amount of respect 

Him going against Kizaru to a standstill seems to be as good as Marco's confrontation with the Admiral, since both men fought on comparable terms with Kizaru

So, I don't think it a stretch at all to say that Rayleigh is, for the most part, on par with Marco



> Regarding the post-skip feats we have a common person (G2/3 Luffy) fighting an Admiral and a Commander. Against the Admiral he was battle-worn and not serious while the Admiral was serious. Against the Commander he was serious. The Commander overpowered him while the Admiral could not until he resorted to his DF.



I'm just gonna wait for better feats 



> You would have to argue that not only is Aokiji stronger than Fujitora in cqc but he is stronger than Cracker as well.



You know damn well I can't  

Still, hopefully Aokiji and some of the other Admirals get solid physical feats so we can better judge their performances without having to resort to powerscaling from weaker characters - which I don't like doing in One Piece


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## SenZu (Dec 16, 2016)

Kuzan low diff low-mid at worst. Freezes the biscuits in an instant.

Once his biscuits are ignored he's nothing. He's hinted at having crappy endurance as well.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 16, 2016)

I don't see why there's any reason that Cracker can give an admiral a close fight. Something like mid-diff is more like it, but that's still very respectable against the type of opponent he's facing. If someone like Cracker can give Aokiji a high-diff fight, that would mean Marco can defeat an admiral. That sounds very strange to me. Marco can give an admiral around upper high-diff or stalemate at best (depending on the admiral), but it's still a stretch to think he can defeat one more often than not. Cracker isn't even Big Mom's second best, so it's really stretching to think he can push an admiral to high-diff when it's hard to see one of the strongest FMs out there defeating one based on what we've seen.

Aokiji would defeat Cracker with solid mid-diff, in my opinion.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 16, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> The OL consensus is that Aokiji's freeze on DD was exactly the same freeze as the one he did on Jozu.


Actually its the opposite.


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## Gohara (Dec 17, 2016)

Again, I have no plans to get involved in the insults between both sides.  Props to Kyouko, though, for being civil and putting forth good points on both sides.  I should note that although I do argue some of these points strongly, I have no issue against differing opinions, and respect all opinions on the matter.  Either way, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the Admirals are a level above Lord Cracker.  Based on current evidence, though, I think that Lord Cracker would fight on par with or at least give around high difficulty to most Admirals.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Cracker stronger then Aokiji in CQC



Seraphoenix makes a good point.  Lord Cracker seems to be physically stronger than a fully healed Gear 3rd Luffy whose physical strength feats are superior to Fujitora's.  Based on feats so far Lord Cracker > a fully healed Gear 3rd Luffy > a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy > Fujitora.  So unless Aokiji is significantly physically stronger than Fujitora, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Lord Cracker is physically stronger than Aokiji.

Although, the question is are we talking just physical strength or all aspects of close range combat?  Aokiji is likely faster but Lord Cracker likely has better defense given that Luffy considered his defense very hard and he had previously matched up against Admirals and other Admiral level characters.  In terms of overall close range combat it's debatable but I would give Lord Cracker the edge based on feats so far.  If we're talking physical strength specifically then Lord Cracker has better feats so far as well.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> The man that jumps in front of the Worlds strongest man to fight him



So has John Giant, and yet I think that we can agree that Lord Cracker is significantly more powerful than John Giant.  It's also worth noting that it was an ill and battle worn Old Whitebeard.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> the man that takes a sneak attack to the face from one of the most physically strong characters in the manga(Jozu) and comes out with a bloody lip



Jozu being one of the physically strongest characters in the series doesn't necessarily mean that all of his techniques are among the physically strongest in the series.  Using similar reasoning, a battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy has withstood multiple techniques from Kizaru.  So have multiple other Pre Time Skip Supernovas.  Yet I'm sure that you don't consider that to be the limit of Kizaru's firepower.

Also, that's just in reference to their defense.  Luffy is also one of the physically strongest characters in the series and spoke more highly of Lord Cracker's defense than he had anyone else that he's matched up against so far including Admirals and other Admiral level characters.

Either way, physical strength and defense aren't necessarily the same thing.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> the man that fought akainu





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Akainu being the man who stopped a Quake infused Bisento Swing from the WSM with his foot



The issue with that argument is:

-Aokiji putting up a great match up against Pre Time Skip Akainu doesn't require him to be as physically strong as him.  There are many Abilities that go into a match up.  This is the most important point because even if the other points weren't true it would still have nothing to do with Aokiji's physical strength.

-Pre Time Skip Akainu was kicking down at the Bisento.  Not only are legs far physically stronger than arms but resisting while kicking down at something is a lot easier than resisting while kicking forward or up at something.  There are many people that you are physically stronger than that could kick down at a weapon that you are wielding and be able to overpower you with their legs.

-The swing that you're referring to was aimed at Marine foot soldiers.

-That was an ill and battle worn Old Whitebeard at the time.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> his fellow admiral kizaru can fight the Pirate kings first mate in pure swordsmanship(kizaru is not a swordsmen) without losing any ground.



Old Rayleigh isn't in the same league of power that he was in while he was in his prime so referring to him as the Pirate King's First Mate doesn't matter much here.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Your telling me that Aokiji is inferior to a guy in cqc that actively goes out of his way to avoid fighting himself.



I'm fairly certain that Seraphoenix is including Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> So much so that the World government does not even know what he looks like. There is more but you get the point.



That statement was more so about the effectiveness of his Biscuit Soldiers.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Aokiji is faster then Cracker



That's likely true, but Aokiji isn't as fast as Luffy, and Luffy's speed wasn't enough for him to best Lord Cracker.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> stronger then cracker



Again, in terms of physical strength feats so far Lord Cracker > a fully healed Gear 3rd Luffy > a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy > Fujitora.  Aokiji hasn't shown any physical strength feats that suggests that he stands out from most Admirals and other Admiral level characters in terms of physical strength.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> has better haki then cracker



That's debatable.  We have no idea whose Haki is superior between Aokiji's and Lord Cracker's.  If anything Lord Cracker's Armanent Haki has been given the most praise out of any character that Luffy has matched up against so far.  That doesn't necessarily mean that Lord Cracker has better Haki than Aokiji, but that's the only relevant comparison that we have to make so far.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> is a shit ton more durable then cracker



If we're excluding Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers then yeah, but we're including Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers, and again they have better durability feats than Fujitora so far.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> and has a shit ton more endurance then cracker.



We have no idea how they compare in terms of stamina so how do you figure that Aokiji has far superior stamina to Lord Cracker?  Aokiji currently has better stamina feats but we have yet to see the limit of Lord Cracker's stamina.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Goes without saying his hype and portrayal are way above him as well.





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Not really what i posted was feats that various Admirals have performed not just hype and portryal which obviously goes to Aokiji.



I respectfully disagree.  We've seen around a handful of high level Yonkou Commander level characters have even confrontations and match ups with Admirals and in some cases were even in favor of the high level Yonkou Commander level characters.  Lord Cracker is also one of the most powerful Yonkou Commanders in his Yonkou Crew, and the Yonkou themselves have significantly better portrayal than the Admirals so far.

Additionally, the two most relevant comparisons that we have to make between the Admirals and Lord Cracker so far are Doflamingo and Luffy.  Lord Cracker has shown to be comparable to Doflamingo and Luffy in terms of power who have the feats, portrayal, and skills to suggest that they're around or close to Admiral level.  So the two most relevant comparisons that we have to make suggests that Lord Cracker's portrayal is comparable to the Admirals'.  That doesn't necessarily mean that Lord Cracker => Aokiji, but there is a lot of evidence suggesting that Lord Cracker would at least put up a good to great match up against the Admirals, and virtually no evidence suggesting that the Admirals would best Lord Cracker with any less than around high difficulty.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> As obviously Aokiji can one shot pretty much anyone with his devil fruit if he gets a good grip on you.



Not only is that speculative but it's a big if.  It also doesn't matter much because Lord Cracker can create more Biscuit Soldiers.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Which is irrelevant because regardless of how weakened WB was his feats in the war still shit on Cracker and based on said feats would steamroll the fuck out of cracker if they fought.



Old Whitebeard's feats are against the Admirals so with all due respect it would be circular reasoning to use those feats because the Admirals vs. Lord Cracker is what's being disputed.  It's also a big claim to suggest that no matter how hindered Old Whitebeard is he's more powerful than almost every Yonkou Commander in the series.  What evidence is there suggesting that to be the case?  There are many cases in which Sanji and Zoro would likely defeat a significantly battle worn Luffy so why would we assume that Old Whitebeard's most powerful subordinates are unable to best him while he's significantly battle worn?  Not only that, but again, your argument must exclude the Admirals because it would be circular reasoning to include them.  Considering that Old Whitebeard has only fought the Admirals on screen so far it would be very difficult to make that argument without using circular reasoning.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Nothing points to Cracker being able to outpace Aokiji in CQC.



Lord Cracker doesn't necessarily need to outpace Aokiji to best him, though.  Luffy is significantly faster than Lord Cracker and yet Lord Cracker fought on par with Luffy.  One of the reasons that Luffy's significant speed advantage wasn't enough for him to decisively best Lord Cracker is because Lord Cracker can surround him with Biscuit Soldiers, each one with physical strength comparable to if not superior to Gear 3rd Luffy, who has better physical strength feats than Fujitora.  Therefore, it doesn't necessarily matter if Aokiji is faster than Lord Cracker.  Aokiji needs to be physically stronger and faster than Luffy and based on feats Luffy is physically stronger and faster than Aokiji.  Therefore, the only way that Aokiji might be able to best Lord Cracker is by freezing his Biscuit Soldiers and outlasting Lord Cracker since Lord Cracker can just keep creating Biscuit Soldiers.  However, a character comparable to Lord Cracker in terms of power has shown that he can break out of Aokiji's ice, so there's not even enough evidence to clearly suggest that Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers can't break out of Aokiji's ice.  We also don't know who has superior stamina nor what takes more energy between Aokiji's techniques and Lord Cracker's techniques.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> He was not going all out in anyway.



Not only is that speculative but Fujitora not wanting to defeat Luffy doesn't mean that he would let himself get sent flying.  Even if on the chance that he wasn't going all out offensively, which again is speculative, he was almost certainly going all out in defending against a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy's technique.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I have way more feats on my side.



I beg to differ.  There are around a handful of match ups between high level Yonkou Commander level characters and Admirals that we can use as evidence, Luffy vs. Fujitora, and how Lord Cracker compares to Doflamingo and Luffy in terms of power.  That's already at least 10-15 pieces of evidence.  The only evidence that I've seen on the contrary so far is Old Whitebeard vs. Aokiji and Pre Time Skip Akainu vs. Aokiji.  However, neither of those has anything to do with physical strength, and sets aside that Old Whitebeard was ill and battle worn at the time.  Additionally, using Pre Time Skip Akainu would be circular reasoning since we're disputing the Admirals vs. Lord Cracker.  At least 10-15 strong pieces of relevant evidence vs. a couple pieces of evidence that lack relevancy and overlook context.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Fuji in the same arc has feats of standing on equal ground to Sabo a CQC expert who is more certainly much stronger then G2/G3 Luffy when in comes to hand to hand combat ability.



Sabo has better combat ability than Luffy but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's as physically strong as Gear 3rd Luffy.  Also, Fujitora fighting on par with Sabo has more to do with overall Abilities than physical strength.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Marco is the worlds strongest mans first mate and is a zoan user. He is way stronger then Cracker in CQC so not sure how him pushing kizaru(Who was just floating in the air) to the ground doing zero damage helps your argument here.



Even if we set aside Kizaru sustaining no damage being speculative, the point isn't about how much damage it did to Kizaru.  The point is that Marco overpowered Kizaru.  There isn't any evidence suggesting that Marco is physically stronger than Lord Cracker.  Marco doesn't necessarily need to be physically stronger than Lord Cracker to be more powerful than him overall.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Admirals are going to be fighting it out with Luffy multiple arcs from now.



So far the only Admiral ranked character or above that is foreshadowed to match up against Luffy in future Arcs is Akainu, but he's a Fleet Admiral, not an Admiral.  Also, it's not about whether or not an Admiral will match up against Luffy.  It's about how well they perform against Luffy.  So far Luffy needed Nami's help to best Lord Cracker.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Cracker got one shot by Luffy this arc.



Luffy landed multiple blows on Lord Cracker, so I'm not sure what you mean here.  If the most recent blow landed on a defeated character is considered one shotting a character, then literally every character that wins a match up one shots their opponent.  That means that Old Whitebeard one shotted Pre Time Skip Akainu and that Pre Time Skip Akainu one shotted Aokiji.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Nothing stop Aokiji from freezing the shit out of his biscuits with ease



Unless Lord Cracker just breaks out of Aokiji's ice, which is a very reasonable possibility since Doflamingo can do the same, and Lord Cracker is at least comparable to Doflamingo in terms of power.

Also, and again, Lord Cracker can create as many Biscuit Soldiers as he wants.



Jigen said:


> Rayleigh's feats and hype:
> - Garp (the man who bitchslapped Marco out of the sky) was cautious of provoking Rayleigh.
> - when Kizaru tried to go after the SHs, Ray was able to intercept and stop Kizaru, which is something that even the likes of Ben Beckman wasn't able to do (inb4 anyone says Ben was stupid enough to leave Kiz alone with the sub).
> - was able to go toe to toe with Kizaru in a swordfight. Please remember, the Admirals are physical monsters, both Akainu and Kizaru were able to hold down WB's bisento with one foot.
> - despite his old age, he still swam the Calm Belt.



-Why wouldn't Old Garp be able to land a blow on Old Rayleigh, and why would we assume that Old Garp isn't cautious of Marco's level of power?

-There's a lot of evidence suggesting that Beckman wasn't in the area that Kizaru was at the time.  Not only was Beckman no longer on the ship when Kizaru landed back down on it, but he was half way across Marineford just a couple pages later.  Also, if we're referencing implications on a character's intelligence, then we should also note that your opinion implies that Kizaru intentionally gave Luffy a much better chance of escaping.  Not only would that be an implication of his intelligence but it would be in direct contradiction to Kizaru previously being frustrated at the idea of Luffy escaping in Sabaody.  At least in Beckman's case he seemed to think that Kizaru would stay put and/or could have at least thought that he at least gave Luffy enough time to escape.  Additionally, Beckman had to go with Shanks and the other Red Hair Commanders to challenge The Blackbeard Pirates and The World Government.

-We're disputing the Admirals vs. Lord Cracker so again, with all due respect, using that as a feat would be circular reasoning.  As for the Bisento, I've addressed that above.

-Impressive, but what does that have to do with Lord Cracker?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## GrizzlyClaws (Dec 17, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> The OL consensus is that Aokiji's freeze on DD was exactly the same freeze as the one he did on Jozu.



How to make shit up to suit our arguments.

This topic was subject of many debates and as far as I can tell there has never been a clear consensus on it in the OL.


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## mr sean66 (Dec 17, 2016)

Gohara said:


> Again, I have no plans to get involved in the insults between both sides.  Props to Kyouko, though, for being civil and putting forth good points on both sides.  I should note that although I do argue some of these points strongly, I have no issue against differing opinions, and respect all opinions on the matter.  Either way, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the Admirals are a level above Lord Cracker.  Based on current evidence, though, I think that Lord Cracker would fight on par with or at least give around high difficulty to most Admirals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




To summarize it aokiji used a no name attack with no hands when he froze mingo, and it took mingo a few seconds to break out
Of the ice. If it was a serious fight aokiji would spam named ice attacks and smash mingo while he was frozen.

The admirals have better overall portrayal than average too yonko commanders. You can easily put them on yonko first mate level.

Aokiji is much faster than cracker, especially when he is hiding in the armour. Aokiji is also a good matchup against him, his armour won't do anything against freezing. He spawns armours and aokiji just freezes the whole area over and over, adding more and more layers of ice.

An admiral can mid diff Doflamingo.

Aokiji can mid diff average top yonko commanders, lord crackwr is a bad matchup against aokiji so it could easily be a lower mid diff win for aokiji.

I can't see how cracker will tag aokiji or hurt him. He hasn't even shown any ranged attacks. Aokiji is just way to versitile.


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## NO (Dec 17, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Actually its the opposite.





GrizzlyClaws said:


> How to make shit up to suit our arguments.
> 
> This topic was subject of many debates and as far as I can tell there has never been a clear consensus on it in the OL.


I'm not sure what you two have been reading for the past few years, but my last thread on it, which dealt with the issue exclusively, had a very clear consensus. If there are other debates that show the lack of a consensus or maybe even a clear opposite consensus, then link them to me and I'll scan them for very specific pieces of evidence we used to convince people in that last thread.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Extravlad (Dec 17, 2016)

Terrible matchup for Cracker lol.

Kuzan has a very easy way to deal with the biscuit soldiers + tons of AOE.

Kuzan low diff most likely.

+ Why do people act like Cracker managing to get out of a casual ice attack would even matter?

Doffy took a few seconds to get out, Kuzan had all the time in the world to smash him but did nothing.

If Cracker gets stuck a few seconds he's dead, his durability won't allow him to take Kuzan's attacks at all.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 17, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> I'm not sure what you two have been reading for the past few years, but my last thread on it, which dealt with the issue exclusively, had a very clear consensus. If there are other debates that show the lack of a consensus or maybe even a clear opposite consensus, then link them to me and I'll scan them for very specific pieces of evidence we used to convince people in that last thread.



Im a busy man so i don't recall your thread although my memory is not that good maybe i did post in it.


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## Gohara (Dec 19, 2016)

@ sean.

-We have no way of making a distinction between Aokiji's techniques whether they're named or not, though.  Using similar reasoning, Zoro's minor slashes are more powerful than Fujitora's named techniques since Zoro used an unnamed technique to overpower Fujitora's Gravity technique.  Some of Aokiji's named techniques are different types of techniques than the ones that he uses to freeze characters.

-Prior to the current Arc I would mostly agree with that but Lord Cracker and Lord Jack already have comparable portrayal to Doflamingo, whose portrayal is not lacking compared to the Admirals.  Yet Lord Cracker and Lord Jack are only the 3rd or 4th most powerful Yonkou Commanders in their Yonkou Crews.  I still like to think that the average Admiral has the edge over them individually but in terms of feats and portrayal there's nothing clearly suggesting that to be the case yet.  Either way, the Admirals being more powerful than them is still a reasonable opinion overall IMO.  It at least further leads me to believe that the average Yonkou First Mate is more powerful than the average Admiral, though.

-Possibly, but again, Luffy is faster than Aokiji and yet his speed wasn't enough to give him the edge against Lord Cracker.  So why would Aokiji possibly being faster than Lord Cracker give him the edge?  As for Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers, I see no reason to assume that they can't break out of Aokiji's ice when Doflamingo can.  Also, even assuming that they can't, Lord Cracker can create as many as he wants.  So at that point it would be about who has more energy and how much energy each of their techniques use.  However, we have no idea how they compare in either of those categories.

-I respectfully disagree.  We have yet to see an Admiral get better portrayal than Doflamingo even though we've seen multiple confrontations between them.  Doflamingo also has skills that are comparable to an Admiral- they all excel in virtually every category and have great Haki and some of the most powerful Devil Fruit Abilities in the series.  I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the average Admiral is more powerful than Doflamingo but currently there's nothing clearly suggesting that to be the case, and even if there were, I highly doubt they would best Doflamingo with any less than around high difficulty.

-Lord Cracker has shown that he can damage Luffy, who likely has better defense than Aokiji.  Even more impressive is how amazing Luffy's defense is and yet Lord Cracker had him nearly incapacitated relatively quickly.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dellinger (Dec 19, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> I don't know why you bother Gohara. They won't respond with actual manga evidence. They will just react with incredulity and appeal to ''Admirals are the Navy's greatest power''.
> 
> This Aokiji fanfiction is hilarious. The guy himself told  Smoker to tell Sakazuki to dispatch *Admirals* to Dressrosa.* Not one but more than one*. That's just the manga though and that's just Kuzan talking. He must be delusional.
> 
> ...



_link removed_

Doflamingo is panting.He put effort into breaking out of the ice.

_link removed_

Buffalo thanks god that Doflamingo wasn't frozen down to the core.Doflamingo then decides to leave because he knows he is out of his league.

This is all with Aokiji having his damn hands in his pockets.

Also are you a dumbass?Have you seen the difference in portrayal?Pre skip Teach with Gura would have absolutely decimate someone like Cracker yet he said that Akainu was out of his fucking league.He run away with his entire crew.Aokiji fought the same Akainu for 10 damn days.




> Fujitora had to resort to his devil fruit in cqc against a tired G2/3 Luffy. That's just the manga though. That's a Fujitora that said he was serious btw. Luffy didn't use one named move in G2 or 3 much less G4. So a Luffy that wasn't even trying that hard and shouting out his attacks got treated like a bitch? lul
> 
> I'm sure the rubble would kill them like the meteor killed Sabo, Law and Doflamingo right? Never mind that the rubble is far less dense than a meteor.
> 
> ...



Major bullshit in every paragraph here.For once Fujitora blocked and avoided every attack of Luffy.When he got pissed off,he sent Luffy packing far away.

Did you get the impression that they could do anything to the rubble?Everyone was shitting bricks there,including Law,Bartolomeo and the others.The rubble was way too big.Nothing like the meteors.Law,Luffy and Zoro haven't shown any range to do shit to it.Also heck Tsuru pretty much implied that Fujitora did not need any help in order to beat the crap out of alliance.Do you know more than Tsuru now?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Dellinger (Dec 19, 2016)

I mean heck,Sabo absolutely fodderizes Burgess who is not than far behind Cracker and FUjitora was cracking up jokes against Sabo.

Not difference in portrayal my ass

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Bogard (Dec 19, 2016)

No admiral is low diffing Luffy now. It was the entire purpose of his training even if you want to completely ignore the Fujitora instance in dressrosa who beyond the actual feat served its purpose in my opinion and Cracker is stronger than him. Hell he also has better portrayal than Doflamingo who himself was portrayed to give a fight to an admiral(Fujitora). Not to say yonko top commanders are admiral lvl but i think it's becoming clearer and clearer that they are at a lvl where they'd give admirals at the very least mid difficulty. For this thread then, i'd go with Cracker pushing Kuzan to around mid-high difficulty.


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## Dunno (Dec 20, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Actually its the opposite.


Actually, there is no consensus. 

And Aokiji would beat Cracker easily. The difference when it comes to both feats and portrayal is huge.


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## Gohara (Dec 21, 2016)

@ White Hawk.

-Being surrounded by ice will make anyone cold, that doesn't have much to do with effort or power.  It doesn't have anything to do with how easy it was for Doflamingo to break out of the ice.

-Your opinion on why Doflamingo went back to Dressrosa is not only speculative but I would argue there's a far more likely reason, which is that matching up against Aokiji would be a big waste of time.  If Doflamingo bests Aokiji, what would that accomplish?  Smoker would still report the situation and The Straw Hat Pirates would have invaded Dressrosa at that point.

-Again, there's no known correlation between the positioning of Aokiji's hands and the power of the technique that he's using.  The idea that Aokiji having his hands in his pockets suggests that he wasn't trying is speculative.

-Similar to Doflamingo vs. Aokiji, your opinion on why Blackbeard retreated is speculative.  Also, Blackbeard didn't say anything resembling Akainu being out of his league.  At best it could be interpreted as Akainu being more powerful than him.

-What is there suggesting that Pre Time Skip Quake Blackbeard is more powerful than Lord Cracker, let alone by a significant amount?  There are no relative comparisons to make between them.  All we know is that Pre Time Skip Quake Blackbeard was likely below Yonkou level at the time, which Lord Cracker also is.

-I do agree that Pre Time Skip Akainu would best Lord Cracker 10 times out of 10, but again, there's nothing suggesting that it would be with any less than around high difficulty.

-It's true that Fujitora blocked Luffy's techniques but that doesn't change that a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy still overpowered Fujitora.  That suggests that a fully healed Gear 3rd Luffy is physically stronger than Fujitora and therefore likely the other Admirals with the possible exception of Pre Time Skip Akainu.  Yet Lord Cracker is physically stronger than a fully healed Gear 3rd Luffy.  Also, and again, I'm fairly certain that you've counted Sabo panting and having brief dirt marks on his face as being owned by Fujitora and you even suggest as much in your most recent post in this thread.  Yet Fujitora was panting and had dirt marks on his face in his match up against Luffy.

-We already know that Zoro has great long range firepower as we saw against Pica, and Pica is huge.  Also, both Luffy and Zoro were shown wanting to match up against Fujitora.  Gear 3rd Luffy has enough firepower to destroy an Island sized ship and Luffy's significantly more powerful in Gear 4th than he is in Gear 3rd.  Almost all of that Alliance were very battle worn including Law and Luffy so I'm not sure why it would matter even if Fujitora could have given them a significant amount of difficulty.  Also, Fujitora was allowed to conjure all of that rubble because no one was doing anything to prevent him from doing so.  Zoro was being held back so they could escape the Marines which also includes Tsuru and Sengoku and Luffy was busy talking to Rebecca.

-What makes you suggest that Burgess isn't that much weaker than Lord Cracker?  I also respectfully disagree with that.  Not all Yonkou Commanders are around the same level of power and Burgess was one of the weakest Blackbeard Commanders Pre Time Skip.  I see no reason to think that Burgess got a significantly bigger power up during the time skip than the Level 6 Impel Down Prisoner Blackbeard Commanders.  Sabo has fought on par with Fujitora.  So while Fujitora and Sabo are significantly more powerful than Burgess, the same argument could be made about Lord Cracker.  The two most direct relevant comparisons to make between Fujitora and Lord Cracker are how Lord Cracker compares to Doflamingo and Luffy.  Both have the feats, portrayal, and skills to suggest that they're around or close to Admiral level and Lord Cracker has similar direct portrayal to them.  Whereas in the Burgess comparison we would have to assume that Burgess is almost as powerful as Lord Cracker or at least comparable to him in terms of power, which is not only speculative but unlikely.


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## trance (Dec 21, 2016)

Not that often I agree with Gohara but yea, Cracker would lay the smackdown on Burgess

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 23, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> _link removed_
> 
> Doflamingo is panting.He put effort into breaking out of the ice.
> 
> ...



Gohara already took care of this nonsense. Fujitora was panting against a non-serious Luffy. So I guess G2/3 Luffy>Fujitora

If your whole body is made of ice do you attack faster by taking your hands out of your pockets or just attacking with hands in pockets? Put on your thinking cap for a second.



White Hawk said:


> Did you get the impression that they could do anything to the rubble?Everyone was shitting bricks there,including Law,Bartolomeo and the others.The rubble was way too big.Nothing like the meteors.Law,Luffy and Zoro haven't shown any range to do shit to it.Also heck Tsuru pretty much implied that Fujitora did not need any help in order to beat the crap out of alliance.Do you know more than Tsuru now?



Are you going to address my arguments or are you going to appeal to incredulity like some child?

The Noah is as big as an island and Luffy was handling it in G3.

Also lmao at this delusional Tsuru statement. What the fuck does she know about Luffy and Zoro's capabilities? Was she there for G4? Was she there when Zoro and Luffy casually pushed back Fujitora with no name moves? Don't mistake a character's opinion with omniscience. It makes you look like you don't know the first thing about reading literature.




White Hawk said:


> Also are you a dumbass?Have you seen the difference in portrayal?Pre skip Teach with Gura would have absolutely decimate someone like Cracker yet he said that Akainu was out of his fucking league.He run away with his entire crew.Aokiji fought the same Akainu for 10 damn days.



You want to imply I'm a dumbass when none of this mess of statements have any causal relationship?

Prove Gura Teach would ''decimate'' him or stfu. You made a claim now back it up with evidence.

He never said Akainu was out of his league. Teach is not going to fight over a ship when he could lose a crew mate and has bigger aspirations. He was not scared of Garp and Sengoku, unless you think Akainu is stronger than both of them as a team?

What is the point of the 10 days nonsense? They have stamina so what? how does that relate to anything about his topic?



White Hawk said:


> Major bullshit in every paragraph here.For once Fujitora blocked and avoided every attack of Luffy.When he got pissed off,he sent Luffy packing far away.



Prove it's bullshit instead of throwing a tantrum. He had to resort to his DF  against a Luffy that was not serious. He sent a Luffy who didn't use one named move ''packing''. What did that attack do btw? nothing.

You're just living in denial because Admirals are being portrayed as what they always were; Commander level. They are not comparable to the Yonko. Unless you think the man who took off his IV's, had heart attacks, was stabbed etc, was somehow the same man that clashed with Shanks, splitting the heavens and avoided over 100 attempts on his life by Ace even while asleep. Even so he 2 shot the strongest admiral.

Btw if you your reply has any more of the logical fallacies indicated above then I won't reply. I've had enough of replying to people who are fledglings in debates, logic and overall literature analysis. Too many people here without even a high school diploma.



White Hawk said:


> I mean heck,Sabo absolutely fodderizes Burgess who is not than far behind Cracker and FUjitora was cracking up jokes against Sabo.
> Not difference in portrayal my ass



Sabo wasn't serious serious against Fujitora. Fujitora was using named moves and dropping meteors while Sabo was training his fruit. He was also cracking jokes btw while Fujitora said he was serious.

I'm glad you provided proof that Burgess is a top 3 fighter in BB's crew and has comparable feats to cracker. Thanks for that.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Ah yes the WB was super weak argument
> 
> Which is irrelevant because regardless of how weakened WB was his feats in the war still shit on Cracker and based on said feats would steamroll the fuck out of cracker if they fought.
> 
> ...



I think Gohara already said most of what I wanted to say about what you posted here. Your mangaheat link does not work btw. Perhaps tell me about these speed feats.

The only thing I will add is we do not have common grounds for debate. You think that the feats from admirals against WB are somehow indicative that they are Yonko level. I do not.

WB had equal portrayal when he was in the best of health with a fellow Yonko.

He then took off his IV's and and stabbed. Marco who knew him better than anyone commented on how he had deteriorated as we saw from the Ace flashbacks the level of healthy WB's CoO. Crocodile who fought him also commented on his health. He then had a heart attack and got a magma fist during the heart attack as a further nerf. He then took lasers, gun shots etc and still 2 shot the strongest admiral.

The previously mentioned fellow Yonko who did not suffer such health problems came and said stop or we fight. None of the supposed Yonko level characters from the marines stepped up. They had no problem potentially warring with Dragon by killing Luffy but backed down against Shanks.

You have to ignore any semblance of logical coherence to think Admirals are comparable to Yonko. Especially with what we have been learning about Kaido and Big Mom.


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## ThatGreekLady (Dec 23, 2016)

Stop with the porn. Fucking spammers.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 23, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> Gohara already took care of this nonsense. Fujitora was panting against a non-serious Luffy. So I guess G2/3 Luffy>Fujitora
> 
> If your whole body is made of ice do you attack faster by taking your hands out of your pockets or just attacking with hands in pockets? Put on your thinking cap for a second.
> 
> ...



Not going to argue Admirals vs Yonkou as thats been done to death.

But what i will say is that hardly matters to this topic from my point of view.

Because as far as im concerned White-beard, Big mom, Shanks, and Kaidou all beat the shit out of Cracker if not out right stomp his ass. So as far as my ratings are concerned Aokiji does not need to be Yonkou level to be stronger then Cracker by a noticeable amount.

For future reference in case you ever wonder. Yonkou mid diff the Yonkou first mates. So White-beard mid diffs Marcos, Benn beckman ect. Marco is of course much stronger then biscuit boy


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## Gohara (Dec 24, 2016)

That's mostly fair but I'm not sure that I entirely agree with those rankings.  It depends on how you define besting a character with virtually little to no difficulty.  I can see Lord Cracker giving the average Yonkou around mid difficulty but I agree that the Yonkou are a league of power above Lord Cracker IMO.

I respectfully disagree about Marco besting Lord Cracker by a significant amount as well.  Marco is likely more powerful but what is there suggesting that he would win with any less than around high difficulty?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 24, 2016)

Gohara said:


> That's mostly fair but I'm not sure that I entirely agree with those rankings.  It depends on how you define besting a character with virtually little to no difficulty.  I can see Lord Cracker giving the average Yonkou around mid difficulty but I agree that the Yonkou are a league of power above Lord Cracker IMO.
> 
> I respectfully disagree about Marco besting Lord Cracker by a significant amount as well.  Marco is likely more powerful but what is there suggesting that he would win with any less than around high difficulty?



eh depends on how you define or what your requirements for mid/high diff honestly. That being said diffculty is not a direct 1 to 1 ratio of a characters overall powerlevel either. Marco and Cracker are both defensive based fighters but i don't think Marco will be that tired or injured at the end of the fight, and if another high level opponent showed up he would still be in fighting condition to go another round. The amount of fire power needed to take down marco is to much IMO for Cracker to dish out, he can certainly stall him for a long ass time with his regenerating biscuits but playing the Endurance game with a Phoenix is a battle your going to lose badly in.


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 24, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Not going to argue Admirals vs Yonkou as thats been done to death.
> 
> But what i will say is that hardly matters to this topic from my point of view.
> 
> ...



The reason I brought up the Yonko is that people like to bring up WB and his WSM title to hype admirals by saying, ''look at their feats against him''. The WB that fought the admirals was horrendously nerfed. According to those people however he had minor injuries. They tend to rely on statements by Sengoku who had no idea of WB's condition or Buggy who was not in the New World. They tend to ignore statements by Marco and Crocodile on how he deteriorated, all before he had a heart attack and Akainu took a free shot that melted his insides. It's pretty obvious that the WB that beat Akainu was powerful, but he was a shell of the man known as WSM. 

They also tend to ignore how Shanks came and strong armed everyone into backing down. Akainu was going to execute Coby for not wanting to fight but backed down against Shanks. Shanks had equal portrayal with the best possible version of WB. The people on the other side of course think Oda does not mean anything when the heavens and not even the sky get split evenly. They like to say Akainu doesn't have the authority to start a war while ignoring that killing Lufy would probably start a war with Dragon. In their mind Akainu (bleeding and injured), Aokiji, Kizaru,Garp and Sengoku are all Yonko level and above Commanders, but elected to not fight the Red Hairs who have one Yonko level character for no apparent reason. 


Your standings for instance do not make sense if the above mentioned characters are Yonko level. If they were then they would mid diff Ben Beckman and low diff(''Marco is far stronger than Cracker'') the other Commanders and then gang bang Shanks. So tell me do you honestly think Admirals are on the same level as Yonko? If you do what diff is it? And based on that why did they back down from Shanks? Do you think the WB that avoided over 100 attempts on his life even in his sleep is the same level as the one who couldn't even anticipate Squardo's attack?

Regarding Commanders, the above mentioned ''Admirals were going even with the WSM who had superficial injuries'' argument is used to put them above a Yonko Commander. That is they could go toe to toe with a Yonko so they obviously beat his subordinate. 

The other favourite reason used is the one shot capability of their fruit. I would like to differentiate between a 1v1 boxing match and a street brawl. In a 1v1 situation akin to a boxing match, we were shown equality between Commanders and Admirals. That is the sum of their abilites (Haki,physical stats and DF abilities) gave us a stalemate.

 In the context of a brawl where there were distractions it gave us an Admiral win because of one of the aspects of their abilities (DF lethality). Oda used the context of a brawl to give them the win when he could have shown us them winning on their own. If you look away Akainu can literally take off your head if you are not prepared. Jozu will give you a broken jaw or something. The lethality of their fruits however could not do anything 1v1 with no distractions. Throw them on Punk Hazard and you won't have any manga evidence to support overall Admiral superiority.

The above is aimed at most of the admiral fans and not just you who give the same arguments and I end up giving tldr's weekly in 3 different threads about the same thing.


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## batman22wins (Dec 25, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> The reason I brought up the Yonko is that people like to bring up WB and his WSM title to hype admirals by saying, ''look at their feats against him''. The WB that fought the admirals was horrendously nerfed. According to those people however he had minor injuries. They tend to rely on statements by Sengoku who had no idea of WB's condition or Buggy who was not in the New World. They tend to ignore statements by Marco and Crocodile on how he deteriorated, all before he had a heart attack and Akainu took a free shot that melted his insides. It's pretty obvious that the WB that beat Akainu was powerful, but he was a shell of the man known as WSM.
> 
> They also tend to ignore how Shanks came and strong armed everyone into backing down. Akainu was going to execute Coby for not wanting to fight but backed down against Shanks. Shanks had equal portrayal with the best possible version of WB. The people on the other side of course think Oda does not mean anything when the heavens and not even the sky get split evenly. They like to say Akainu doesn't have the authority to start a war while ignoring that killing Lufy would probably start a war with Dragon. In their mind Akainu (bleeding and injured), Aokiji, Kizaru,Garp and Sengoku are all Yonko level and above Commanders, but elected to not fight the Red Hairs who have one Yonko level character for no apparent reason.
> 
> ...


Shanks came in when everybody was injured and exhausted. It was more Sengoku backing down too. Akainu just fought the WSM and a bunch of commanders. Admirals are not that far from Youkou. Shanks isn't beating someone like Akinu without high diff.

Lethality is apart of fighting. The fact is Jozu got a free hit on Aokiji while he fighting WSM ( got the upperhand by the way) and only caused a bloody lip and Marvo caused no noticeable damage.

We wasn't showing any equality with Admirals and Commanders. A pussed off Akainu was walking through commanders like noting. This is after taking Absurd amount of damage from WB. The commanders still couldn't stop Akainu after Akainu took one of the strongest attack feats we have seen in the whole manga.
While injured Akainu took out Jenbei, Destroyed Ivankov (Rev commander), and was shown vs most of WB commanders. He overpowered Marco.

Akainu fought for 10 days which is a absurd endurance feat. Aokiji did the same.

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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

batman22wins said:


> Shanks came in when everybody was injured and exhausted. It was more Sengoku backing down too. Akainu just fought the WSM and a bunch of commanders. Admirals are not that far from Youkou. Shanks isn't beating someone like Akinu without high diff.
> 
> Lethality is apart of fighting. The fact is Jozu got a free hit on Aokiji while he fighting WSM ( got the upperhand by the way) and only caused a bloody lip and Marvo caused no noticeable damage.
> 
> ...



You are bringing up points I refuted in the very post you quoted. Don't reply to me if you are illiterate.

They all backed down with only Akainu noticeably injured. Sengoku the strategist elected not to fight. He did not qualify it with anything, he just backed down. Unlike WB, Shanks' haki was working perfectly. The Yonnko fought a healthy WB for territory. We saw what an overwhelmingly nerfed Yonko did to Akainu. Shanks would mid-diff him.

If WB was healthy and had his haki working properly he would low-mid dif Akainu. He beat him in 2 hits with all his injuries. Oda had to literally make him a dying man for this high diff scenario. If he could use his CoO to dodge and had his CoA working consistently it would be a wash.

Did the lethality help 1v1 with no distractions? Don't lie to yourself. If we put Marco and Kizaru on PH you would have no manga basis to say Kizaru wins. There is a difference between a boxing match and a street brawl. If you can't recognise that simple distinction then there is no point in going into it. I'm not a fan of people who distort reality to push their own agendas.

I love how you call WB WSM like he was not massively nerfed since his introduction box. He was not introduced with heart attacks as WSM. The WB with IV's was.

Show me a panel of Akainu overpowering a prominent Commander like Marco, Vista or Jozu. Akainu beating Curiel is the equivalent of Smoker beating Robin. It says nothing to how he would do against Zoro or Sanji.

Wow he fought for 10 days but got beaten in two hits but a Yonko. Amazing.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 26, 2016)

*If WB was healthy and had his haki working properly he would low-mid dif Akainu
*
ah this reminds of the good ole days in the OL. When Old white-beard takes out 2 admirals at once, and Prime White-beard solos all three. . 

Still as funny as ever.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *If WB was healthy and had his haki working properly he would low-mid dif Akainu
> *
> ah this reminds of the good ole days in the OL. When Old white-beard takes out 2 admirals at once, and Prime White-beard solos all three. .
> 
> Still as funny as ever.



Old WB with IV's is introduced as WSM. Clashes evenly with Shanks splitting the heavens and is shown to not get hit by Ace in over 100 attempts on his life even while asleep.

WB takes off IV's. Health deteriorates. Squardo stabs him which shows he is not near the level of warding off attacks even when asleep. Is shown coughing up blood. Fights Akainu who is at 100% and gets heart attack because of health. Akainu takes cheap shot and melts insides. This is the starting condition of WB's fight with AKainu; health deteriorated from no IV's, heart attack, pitiful CoO and melted insides from cheap shot. WB takes hundreds of bullet wounds and stabs from Marine soldiers. Fights Akainu again and beats him in 2 hits. Akainu takes 10 days to beat fellow Admiral.

Donquixote Doflamingo: Yes that WB above is WSM because Sengoku who sits on his ass at Navy HQ knows better than Marco. There was no clear difference between the WB that clashed with Shanks and the one at MF 

Do you actually believe this shit?

You have no manga basis to say Marco doesn't fight an admiral for days on end except plot no jutsu distractions and cuffs. And like you said a Yonko mid diffs his FM.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> Old WB with IV's is introduced as WSM. Clashes evenly with Shanks splitting the heavens and is shown to not get hit by Ace in over 100 attempts on his life even while asleep.
> 
> WB takes off IV's. Health deteriorates. Squardo stabs him which shows he is not near the level of warding off attacks even when asleep. Is shown coughing up blood. Fights Akainu who is at 100% and gets heart attack because of health. Akainu takes cheap shot and melts insides. This is the starting condition of WB's fight with AKainu; health deteriorated from no IV's, heart attack, pitiful CoO and melted insides from cheap shot. WB takes hundreds of bullet wounds and stabs from Marine soldiers. Fights Akainu again and beats him in 2 hits. Akainu takes 10 days to beat fellow Admiral.
> 
> ...


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

I thought as much. Do you believe those two WB's are even remotely the same level? I really want to know if you are a special needs person. 

There is a clear difference between the Yonko WB that was fighting for territory with other Yonko according to Law and the severely nerfed one at MF that still beat Akainu in two hits, who needed 10 days to beat someone on his level.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> I thought as much. Do you believe those two WB's are even remotely the same level? I really want to know if you are a special needs person.
> 
> There is a clear difference between the Yonko WB that was fighting for territory with other Yonko according to Law and the severely nerfed one at MF that still beat Akainu in two hits, who needed 10 days to beat someone on his level.



White-beard before the War beats WB that beat Akainu with High diff. So yea same level.


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> White-beard before the War beats WB that beat Akainu with High diff. So yea same level.



-So having CoO that would prevent half your head being taken off or getting stabbed makes no difference?
-Not having a heart attack does not make a difference?
-Not getting your insides melted as a cheap shot because of the heart attack makes no difference?

Same level?  Are you perhaps in a cult? Do facts not make a difference to your opinion?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> -So having CoO that would prevent half your head being taken off or getting stabbed makes no difference?
> -Not having a heart attack does not make a difference?
> -Not getting your insides melted as a cheap shot because of the heart attack makes no difference?
> 
> Same level?  Are you perhaps in a cult? Do facts not make a difference to your opinion?



1. CoO is nice to have. If Akainu had it he could of sensed a Giant ass man coming up behind him and maybe would of avoided taking a Quake to the back of the head. Sadly Akainu does not have CoO. But WB does have CoO not sure who told you otherwise. 
2/3. Sure it does. Makes the amount of time White-beard can fight decrease(Or in other words his endurance/stamina goes down cause he took damage), but when you have the most powerful devil fruit in the world fights don't last very long anyway.

I'm a follower of GrandMaster Zoro. Some would call that a cult yes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. CoO is nice to have. If Akainu had it he could of sensed a Giant ass man coming up behind him and maybe would of avoided taking a Quake to the back of the head. Sadly Akainu does not have CoO. But WB does have CoO not sure who told you otherwise.
> 2/3. Sure it does. Makes the amount of time White-beard can fight decrease(Or in other words his endurance/stamina goes down cause he took damage), but when you have the most powerful devil fruit in the world fights don't last very long anyway.
> 
> I'm a follower of GrandMaster Zoro. Some would call that a cult yes.



1. Do you have any evidence to support Akainu having his haki severely compromised like WB? Maybe that's the level of his CoO? I said his CoO had a clear difference between getting stabbed by Squardo and avoiding attacks in his sleep 

2. His fruit's power is irrelevant and it's the most powerful paramecia not overall fruit. What do you think the physiological effects are of a heart attack and magma in your body on performance? Elite fighters experience losses in performance just with a common cold. Do you think it makes no difference in performance? A fucking heart attack.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> 1. Do you have any evidence to support Akainu having his haki severely compromised like WB? Maybe that's the level of his CoO? I said his CoO had a clear difference between getting stabbed by Squardo and avoiding attacks in his sleep
> 
> 2. His fruit's power is irrelevant and it's the most powerful paramecia not overall fruit. What do you think the physiological effects are of a heart attack and magma in your body on performance? Elite fighters experience losses in performance just with a common cold. Do you think it makes no difference in performance? A fucking heart attack.



1. Can't really have diminished CoO when you don't have it to begin with, but if Akainu could use it that would be pretty helpful. 

2. Thats assuming he was even using CoO when Squardo was standing in front of him. I doubt he was cause if he was then weakened CoO or not he would of sensed Squardos intent when he pulled out his sword(You actually dont even need CoO to sense bloodlust but it helps), and yet WB had zero reaction. 

3. This is a manga not real life. Zoro on deaths door blitz One shot a Man he previously could not put a scratch on. Obviously the WSM can do things many magnitudes greater then Alabasta Zoro could muster. But of course it affected him it left him defenseless(as it should) and he got magma fisted for it.


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Can't really have diminished CoO when you don't have it to begin with, but if Akainu could use it that would be pretty helpful.
> 
> 2. Thats assuming he was even using CoO when Squardo was standing in front of him. I doubt he was cause if he was then weakened CoO or not he would of sensed Squardos intent when he pulled out his sword(You actually dont even need CoO to sense bloodlust but it helps), and yet WB had zero reaction.
> 
> 3. This is a manga not real life. Zoro on deaths door blitz One shot a Man he previously could not put a scratch on. Obviously the WSM can do things many magnitudes greater then Alabasta Zoro could muster. But of course it affected him it left him defenseless(as it should) and he got magma fisted for it.



1. All Vice admiral and above marines were stated to have haki. Just because Akainu's isn't on the level of Fujitora's doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Especially when he was distracted by having his hands full with Marco and Vista. You are dodging the question though. Do you think there is a significant difference between someone avoiding an attempt on his life while sleeping by a decently strong character and someone getting stabbed full frontal by a weaker character?

2. So he uses it while asleep but arriving at a war he somehow has it but doesn't use it? Weak argument.

3. The point is it weakens you a lot. Even if he is in One Piece and is superhuman he is still one man with a heart as he said. A heart attack affects your body like it or not. It's not like a nosebleed. He was introduced as WSM with his IV's and no heart attacks. His clash with Shanks had no indications of performance issues related to health.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> 1. All Vice admiral and above marines were stated to have haki. Just because Akainu's isn't on the level of Fujitora's doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Especially when he was distracted by having his hands full with Marco and Vista. You are dodging the question though. Do you think there is a significant difference between someone avoiding an attempt on his life while sleeping by a decently strong character and someone getting stabbed full frontal by a weaker character?
> 
> 2. So he uses it while asleep but arriving at a war he somehow has it but doesn't use it? Weak argument.
> 
> 3. The point is it weakens you a lot. Even if he is in One Piece and is superhuman he is still one man with a heart as he said. A heart attack affects your body like it or not. It's not like a nosebleed. He was introduced as WSM with his IV's and no heart attacks. His clash with Shanks had no indications of performance issues related to health.



1. Sorry if you have not noticed but im fucking with you. Yes Akainu has CoO but this is marineford we are talking about and CoO the most inconsistent thing in the manga. In just this very arc we already have retarded CoO shit. I honestly don't feel like discussing it. Was White-beards CoO effected quite possibly, but CoO has been pretty insignificant since its introduction and the only one who makes decent use of it is a Blind man who literally has no choice but to use it. Regardless its impossible to determine how much his CoO was deteriorated, when he used it and if he did use it how much it would change things. We don't know even know how good WB CoO is to begin with.

2. Marineford bro. Kizaru could of killed Luffy but he did not. Akainu could of killed white-beard while he was having a heart attack. If you would like a In-verse explanation Haki has been shown to be a usable resource. White-beard was nice and safe on Mobydick with one of his strongest allies standing in front of him. Using CoO was not a priority, and if his COO was so weak that trying to use it could not even sense bloodlust coming two feet in front of you then thats just another reason WB would not even waste energy on it anyway cause its useless to him.  

3. Does it really though? How much did Zoro(By his own words being at deaths door) weaken him? Sure he was on a time limit he was not going to be fighting for much longer. But did it stop him from moving faster then he did when he was at 100 percent? Did it stop him from using a attack stronger then any attack he mustered at 100 percent? No?. 

This is a manga and White-beard was fulled by Nakama rage. You try and downplay it earlier and act like Akainu getting two shoted is some sign of weakness on his part. When in actuality only people not getting two shot by a blood lusted White-beard who just saw his son die is Marco and *maybe *Kaidou. Even in a heavily injured state if Blood Lusted Zoro was to attack a 100 percent Zoro the results are not going to be healthy Zoro low diffs or even mid diffs. He is going to have a hard time and if he is not careful the healthy zoro can get his ass one shot. There are examples throught the manga that show a person being injured does not greatly effect their, attack power, speed, durability ect. It effects it somewhat sure but not in a crazy amount. White-beard himself shows this. You might think a man who is literally missing a part of his head, had a heart attack, magma inside his chest, laser holes, bullet holes, sword wounds of various kinds ect ect. You would think such a man would be easy picking for a Man that mid diff a high ranking yonkou commander(Ace), who previously injured Shanks in the past who said to not underestimate his power, and yet White-beard had him begging for his life in 5 seconds. That is White-beard the WSM, a man who you also for some weird reason try to equate to the other yonkou. WB was the WSM not anyone else. He was stronger then everyone period. White-beard did what he did in the war because of who he is. Shanks, Kaidou, and Big mom can't do they are all yonkou but they are not equal anymore then the admirals are equal. 

Anyway we are not going to agree on this topic so i suggest we try to avoid discussing this in the future it shall just be a waste of time. Once a Admiral actually gets a real 1v1 on panel we shall see where they all roughly stand.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Sorry if you have not noticed but im fucking with you. Yes Akainu has CoO but this is marineford we are talking about and CoO the most inconsistent thing in the manga. In just this very arc we already have retarded CoO shit. I honestly don't feel like discussing it. Was White-beards CoO effected quite possibly, but CoO has been pretty insignificant since its introduction and the only one who makes decent use of it is a Blind man who literally has no choice but to use it. Regardless its impossible to determine how much his CoO was deteriorated, when he used it and if he did use it how much it would change things. We don't know even know how good WB CoO is to begin with.
> 
> 2. Marineford bro. Kizaru could of killed Luffy but he did not. Akainu could of killed white-beard while he was having a heart attack. If you would like a In-verse explanation Haki has been shown to be a usable resource. White-beard was nice and safe on Mobydick with one of his strongest allies standing in front of him. Using CoO was not a priority, and if his COO was so weak that trying to use it could not even sense bloodlust coming two feet in front of you then thats just another reason WB would not even waste energy on it anyway cause its useless to him.
> 
> ...



We know how good it is based in Ace's flashbacks. If you choose to ignore that then you are just ignoring manga evidence. I really don't know when you people are fucking with me. There are so many admirals apologists.

You're mentioning PIS. I think we should go by what the author is trying to portray. The WB that clashed with Shanks was introduced as WSM. Not the one who took off IV's and had heart attacks etc. Not having haki to dodge lethal attacks is a big deal. Not having consistent CoA against logias is a big deal. Even so that shell of WSM beat the strongest admiral in 2 hits. As impressive as that is he would be more impressive if he was the WB in Ace's flashbacks.

In terms of portrayal Oda had to use distractions to have commanders lose to Admirals. He could have shown them winning strictly 1v1 but he didn't.  The strict 1v1's ended in a draw.

Post-skip Cracker a Commander had a better performance in cqc than an Admiral against G4 Luffy. This is equalised by the OP DF Admirals tend to have imo.

So yeah we can postpone this discussion but don't act like Yonko=Admirals is a credible argument when all the evidence suggests it's not. I don't expect Law or Kidd or Urouge to need a distraction to beat Sanji or Franky.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> We know how good it is based in Ace's flashbacks. If you choose to ignore that then you are just ignoring manga evidence. I really don't know when you people are fucking with me. There are so many admirals apologists.
> 
> You're mentioning PIS. I think we should go by what the author is trying to portray. The WB that clashed with Shanks was introduced as WSM. Not the one who took off IV's and had heart attacks etc. Not having haki to dodge lethal attacks is a big deal. Not having consistent CoA against logias is a big deal. Even so that shell of WSM beat the strongest admiral in 2 hits. As impressive as that is he would be more impressive if he was the WB in Ace's flashbacks.
> 
> ...



1. WB smacking away Ace is impressive but that actually does not tell us how good his CoO is as we have little to compare such a feat to. How good do you need to be in order to use your CoO while your asleep? Hell if i know. Is it even a measure of power in CoO you might have to specifically train in it we just don't know. That being said WB being the WSM he gets the benefit of having high level CoO regardless.

2. The fact of the matter is your pretending to know how much WB was weakened. We don't know how weakened he was. White-beards showings are 90+ percent Marineford. How much was his haki affected? We don't even know how strong his haki is in the first place. We are both speculating here, but your speculation goes agasint other things in the story. Do you think Sengoku is retarded or something? Or maybe you think Sengoku is so smart that he knew everything that would happen that despite not fighting and probably not even seeing white-beard in god knows how many years that WB was sick. We both know thats not true in actuality Sengoku was the one shitting his pants about Wb in the war nobody else, Sengoku knows dame well how strong WB and his crew was/is. He would not start a war with White-beard if White-beard himself was capable of mid diffing his strongest fighters, and his commanders neigh equal to said strongest fighters. There are 3 other Yonkou and fucking Dragon. The World Governement would never go to war with WB unless they were sure they could defeat him without losing a large amount of forces. So maybe one admiral at most. Anything more and its not worth it, the marins have a world to protect. Yes plot did help the Marines quite a bit some of was planned by the marines, but it goes without saying that Sengoku did not start a war with the WB pirates because he was 100 percent sure they could trick Squardo into stabbing Wb and that would lead to him having a heart attack, and marco/jozu being taken out. In actuality Sengoku fully expected and believed that the Admirals+Warlords could take out Wb and his commanders without any free one shot opportunitys anything else is a ridiculous notion.

3. A distraction happening does not mean it was needed. WB had a free shot on Akainu does not mean without that distraction he would of failed to take out Akainu. Might of taken another hit or lost more of his head but he could of still done it. Oda taking out Marco and Jozu how he did was a simple plot device that removes the from the war and furthers his narrative. If Oda did not use distractions that would be him saying Marco and Jozu are fodder to Aokiji/Kizaru which they are not. Also like to remind you that the commanders barley fought the Admirals. Kizaru and Marco did not even actually fight. After Marco kicked Kizaru to the ground he left and did his own thing and Marco went and did his own thing, later on Kizaru sneak attacked marco. Jozu and Aokiji fought for one chapter off panel then it was over. So lets not overblow things, those confrontations are of no more significance then Mihawk vs Vista. Only difference is Vista was not distracted so Mihawk did not one shot his ass with the Shadow Moon Slash of Ashura, but using your logic Vista is Mihawk level and can give him a extreme difficulty fight. Your on drugs if you honestly think that. Marco and Jozu did nothing special here. Trading blows with a Admiral for a little bit does not make you Admiral level. Franky fought agasint Luffy just fine for a whole chapter and he is fodder to him, Law fought Doflamingo for a lot longer then any of the commanders did but guess what Doflamingo is a lot stronger then Law. Marco and Jozu feats agasint the Admirals are good feats but your elevating them to equality status which is not what those feats indicat IMO.

I actually don't think the Yonkou=Admiral. The Yonkou are just not stupidly above them like you seem to suggest. The Portrayal of the Admirals is top level, their feats are top level, and their importance and narrative in the story is top level. They are the Strongest Force of the Worlds ruling authority body. The Admirals are EOS Villains along with BB. In the past the Strongest fighters of the WG were not weak sauce compared to the pirates of the strongest generation Garp fought Roger many times, Sengoku was sent out to deal with Roger and Shikis meeting, garp tagged along uninvited. So why would they be shit compared to the pirates now, that are not even up to the standards of the old generation? Akainus not getting mid diff by anyone period. Maybe Prime Roger, and Prime White-beard but dame sure no one alive in the current generation. How someone can actually envision Oda writing Akainu getting his ass kicked aka the Chinjao treatment(Mid diff fight for Luffy). Is literally beyond my mental comprehension. I guess you guys will just have to look silly when Akainu fights EoS or Near EoS Luffy(Who would be Yonkou level+ at that point) just fine.

But yea we shall see my friend.

For my rankings it goes.

White-beard(normal condition). 
High diffs Admiral/Yonkou. Higher end for Yonkou and Akainu lower end for the weaker Admirals. 
Other Yonkou extreme diff Akainu(Assuming Shanks/Bigmom win) I only give Kaidou the benefit of the doubt over AKainu at the moment. 
Other Yonkou high diff the other Admirals. Higher end of High diff for Aokiji maybe extreme depending on match-ups.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## batman22wins (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> You are bringing up points I refuted in the very post you quoted. Don't reply to me if you are illiterate.
> 
> They all backed down with only Akainu noticeably injured. Sengoku the strategist elected not to fight. He did not qualify it with anything, he just backed down. Unlike WB, Shanks' haki was working perfectly. The Yonnko fought a healthy WB for territory. We saw what an overwhelmingly nerfed Yonko did to Akainu. Shanks would mid-diff him.
> 
> ...


What i saw was WB get his faced melted off and got two holes in his stomach. Which qualifies has high diff fight. WB attack also didn't finish off Akainu even through its one if the strongest attacks.

Shanks isn't mid diff any Admiral.

WB got holes put in him by Kizaru and Aokiji's had the upperhand on him before Jozu help. Akainu wasn't fully down after WB attack. He continued fighting WB commanders. You like to talk about being distracted but wasn't Akainu Distracted when WB caught him woth a direct headshot

Marco and vista couldn't stop Akainu advance.


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

batman22wins said:


> What i saw was WB get his faced melted off and got two holes in his stomach. Which qualifies has high diff fight. WB attack also didn't finish off Akainu even through its one if the strongest attacks.
> 
> Shanks isn't mid diff any Admiral.
> 
> ...



Was WB distracted by a heart attack when Akainu melted his insides or not?

WB who was severely nerfed got his face melted off.

Yes he beat Akainu. If you can't get up and have to fall down somewhere to recover then you lost the fight. Make a Battledome fight on Punk Hazard between the two.

The WB that got injured by admirals and other marines was a far cry from the man introduced as WSM. That's the point. If you are in some alternate reality where the WB in Ace's flashback is the same as the one at MF then don't reply to me.


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## batman22wins (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> Was WB distracted by a heart attack when Akainu melted his insides or not?
> 
> WB who was severely nerfed got his face melted off.
> 
> ...


WB got a free headshot on Akainu from behind. 

WB just landed a headshot before getting his head taken off and yes WB was nerf, but he was definitely alert fighting Akainu. We seen people in OP being rediclious injured still attack people with alot of power.

WB in marineford is weaker, but not that much like you making it. Also WB was the WSM not Shanks.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Dec 26, 2016)

batman22wins said:


> WB got a free headshot on Akainu from behind.
> 
> WB just landed a headshot before getting his head taken off and yes WB was nerf, but he was definitely alert fighting Akainu. We seen people in OP being rediclious injured still attack people with alot of power.
> 
> WB in marineford is weaker, but not that much like you making it. Also WB was the WSM not Shanks.



Did Akainu get s free shot with WB's heart attack or not?

He was triple nerfed,

By a lot yes. Taking himself of IV's is nerf 1. Having weak CoO that can't even prevent Squardo's attack is nerf 2. Having a heart attack is nerf 3. Anyone would bump a normal character  a few notches.

And yes, Shanks wasn't dying like WB. So mid diff


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## batman22wins (Dec 26, 2016)

Seraphoenix said:


> Did Akainu get s free shot with WB's heart attack or not?
> 
> He was triple nerfed,
> 
> ...


No Youkou is mid diffing any Admiral  I said he was nerf, but being Nerf in WB doesn't mean you can't perform. WB strongest attack came when he was nerf the most. Admirals have similar potrayal to most Youkou. Even Oda said Akainu could of gotten OP in a year with his strength.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Dec 27, 2016)

What the fuck with this Lord Cracker nonsense? Who started this shit?

Also even though I am on the ship that says any Yonko top 3 (or 4 in this case) will give Top tiers high difficulty but because of Crackers low durability & his DF Aokiji is winning this with Mid - difficulty.


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## Gohara (Dec 27, 2016)

@ batman.

Outside of Marco getting handcuffed he also didn't sustain any noticeable injuries so if we're counting that as a point for the Admirals then we would also have to count it as a point for the high level Yonkou Commanders.

As for Jozu vs. Aokiji, again that's just due to the nature of their Devil Fruit Abilities.  Sugar might be able to one shot characters that Jinbe can't when they come from behind but we know that Jinbe is significantly more powerful than Sugar.

Also, we've seen around a handful of confrontations and/or match ups between high level Yonkou Commanders and the Admirals that were relatively even match ups and in some cases in favor of the high level Yonkou Commander characters:

-Kizaru vs. Marco.

-Beckman vs. Kizaru.

-Old Rayleigh vs. Kizaru.

-Jozu vs. Aokiji.

-Doflamingo vs. Aokiji.

-Ace vs. Aokiji.

-Fujitora vs. Sabo.

-Luffy vs. Fujitora.

-Doflamingo vs. Fujitora.

The difference between those match ups and the ones that you mentioned is that the only canon match ups that you mentioned were low level Yonkou Commander level or in some cases arguably a little more powerful vs. Admirals.  All that suggests is that the Admirals are > low level Yonkou Commander level characters, but in this thread we're discussing high level Yonkou Commander level characters vs. Admirals.

Also, we didn't actually see the Yonkou Commanders matching up against Pre Time Skip Akainu.  We just know that they confronted Pre Time Skip Akainu, and that at some point during the confrontation Pre Time Skip Akainu bested Curiel.  We have no idea if any of the other Yonkou Commanders matched up against Pre Time Skip Akainu or if only Curiel did.

Pre Time Skip Akainu did land a couple blows on Old Whitebeard- but that was an ill and battle worn Old Whitebeard.

As for Aokiji having the upper hand against Old Whitebeard, the only way that would be true is if you could prove that Aokiji wasn't stabbed and that his technique would have been successful if not for Jozu's interference.  There isn't proof for either.

If just one panel of Pre Time Skip Akainu vs. Vista and Marco was enough to conclude what you're concluding here, then we can reference the many more panels of high level Yonkou Commanders fighting on par with and in some cases besting the Admirals.

Again, Pre Time Skip Akainu had time to react after Old Whitebeard landed behind him.  In the Manga there were a couple panels between when Old Whitebeard landed and when Old Whitebeard landed a blow on Pre Time Skip Akainu, and in the Anime those two panels were portrayed to be around a handful of seconds.


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## Amol (Dec 27, 2016)

Man I made my career out of this forum by constantly arguing with Admiral wankers but at those time there was some actual Admiral wanking(Kizaru soloing all post TS SN etc) going on.
But this new generation of anti-Admiral troll that is plaguing forum is some next level crazy. You don't fight biased wanking with equally biased hating. 
Feels hella strange for me to do Admiral defending but hey what can you do when you have another Gohara minus his politeness.
I am gonna make a thread to mock trolls when in final war we see Akainu shrugging off G4 attacks(which should be very stronger than current G4 because of stats and haki increase). 
Or maybe Issho blasting Zoro physically in distance 
Anyway, Aokiji mid diffs Cracker.
Because, Admirals are WG's counterparts to pirate side's Yonkou.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 27, 2016)

Amol said:


> It seems so.
> There is this cycle going on here.
> Take Zoro wanking. At first Zoro was wanked so badly that resulted in creation of anti-Zoro tendency in forum. They had tendency to downplay Zoro no matter against whom he is paired.
> That in turned, made people tired of constant Zoro hating and gave rise to new era of Zoro wanking.
> ...



Marineford 2.0 oh god.

I would rather discuss fairy tail powerlevels instead of that


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## Sherlōck (Dec 27, 2016)

I don't have any hope anymore after pitiful display from Oda regarding fights .

Even a battle between two top tier will probably get 1 chapter at best .


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## Gohara (Dec 27, 2016)

Well, if it ever is proven that the Admirals are around Yonkou level, I will happily change my rankings of the Admirals.  I've actually changed my ranking of them multiple times already, and they are some of my favorite characters in the series.  Generally speaking I like the Admirals more than the Yonkou so far.  Currently, though, just one panel of an ill and battle worn Old Whitebeard being "clashed equally" with by Pre Time Skip Akainu isn't anywhere near enough evidence for me to consider the Admirals around Yonkou level- especially when we have like 40,000 panels of characters below Yonkou level having equal and sometimes superior confrontations and/or match ups against the Admirals.

As for the Admirals being The World Government's counter to the Yonkou, that has yet to be stated and/or implied.  So far they've only been called the Marines' most powerful force, which is not even the same thing as calling them more powerful than any other Marine individually, let alone more powerful than anyone else in The World Government individually.  Even then, there's no guarantee that the most powerful individuals in The World Government are going to be as powerful as the Yonkou.

Also, Current Akainu's feats in the final war would only matter if you're one of the people who think that the Admirals are around as powerful as the Fleet Admirals.  For the fans who think that the Fleet Admirals are more powerful than the Admirals, it doesn't suggest anything about the Admirals.


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## Samehadaman (Jan 3, 2017)

Gohara said:


> As for the Admirals being The World Government's counter to the Yonkou, that has yet to be stated and/or implied.



When I start to think I've outgrown Gohara's infamous tiers, there's always some new detail to trigger me and get my jimmies thoroughly rustled.
Seriously. Not even implied! Even if we ignore that Marine — Pirate relation, with Younkou being highest ranked pirates and Admirals being highest ranked marines. And even if we ignore the multiple character statements equating them. 

You'd think that the fact that in the only time we saw a Yonko openly attacking (and was expected to) he was faced by the Marine Admirals would qualify as a fucking minor itsy bitsy implication of sorts. 

Luckily they weren't low to no diffed by Curiel, otherwise the WG would have to send its hidden top tiers that make Marines obsolete, and for whom even Roger wasn't good enough since he got stuck fighting these Marine jobbers instead of some Edo Rinnegan Kaguya Sage.

/rant

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Jan 3, 2017)

jayjay³² said:


> The OL consensus is that Aokiji's freeze on DD was exactly the same freeze as the one he did on Jozu.



There is no way it is the same no matter what the consensus is. Freezing someone in close combat while serious and flash freezing someone right out of the bat after making an introduction are two completely different scenarios. But I agree with your earlier assessment. 

I think people take these feats too factually when said feats can change depending on the situation. We shouldn't just assume everyone stays frozen because Aokiji is a ice man and neither should we assume Doffy's parasite works on everyone ALL the time. 

"LOL Doffy made Jozu his bitch lol" That's not an argument. That's like saying "LOL Ace matched up with Aokiji evenly against Aokiji's Pheasant attack that must mean Ace and Aokiji are equal". Actual fights in the manga are more than one single attack and more than one single scenario. It's much more complicated than simple minded observations and taking a single feat to heart.


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## Jake CENA (Jan 3, 2017)

no brainer match up

Admirals > Sweet Commanders, First Mates, Division Commanders, etc...


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Jan 4, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *If WB was healthy and had his haki working properly he would low-mid dif Akainu
> *
> ah this reminds of the good ole days in the OL. When Old white-beard takes out 2 admirals at once, and Prime White-beard solos all three. .
> 
> Still as funny as ever.



It's no different than "The Admirals weren't serious". If they were they could've solo'd WB pirates." Dumbass argument. At least Old and sick White beard is canonical/factual.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2017)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> It's no different than "The Admirals weren't serious". If they were they could've solo'd WB pirates." Dumbass argument. At least Old and sick White beard is canonical/factual.



Who says admirals were not serious i think you used the wrong wording here. Not going all out is not the same as not being serious. Admirals did not go all out for the same reason, mihawk and WB did not go all out.
Marineford would be fucking destroyed along with their allies


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## Gohara (Jan 5, 2017)

Why would we assume that the Admirals weren't going all out, though?  The only reason that I've seen suggested is what Pre Time Skip Akainu and Aokiji did to Punk Hazard, but Admirals going all out for 10 days are going to cause more destruction than Admirals going all out for several hours.  That doesn't necessarily mean that the Admirals weren't going all out during the War.

@ Samehadaman.

Lol. Well we usually don't agree with the ranking of the Admirals, although I find a lot of your posts- even the ones that I disagree with- to be reasonable. Still, I respectfully disagree with that post. You mention statements but don't really specify which ones. The only statements that I can think of about the Admirals are them being called the Marines' most powerful force and relatively vague statements like them being the pride of the Marines and what not. However, none of those have any specific implication. At most we can translate them to mean that they are among the most powerful Marines, not necessarily that there are no individual Marines more powerful than them. For example, some of those who think that the Admirals are around as powerful as the Yonkou take the Admirals being the most powerful force in the Marines to mean that they are more powerful than any other Marine, but we already know that's not the case because they aren't more powerful than Garp and the Fleet Admirals. Thus we would either have to assume that Garp and The Fleet Admiral are included in those statements or just that the statement is speaking generally, as in they're some of the most powerful Marines. If there are Marines other than the Admirals that the statements could apply to, then it doesn't automatically mean that the Admirals are the only or main ones who are going to be depended on to fight the Yonkou.

Yet we're just talking the Marines. We already know that The World Government has non-Marine fighters. Who's to say that the Marines are more powerful than any non-Marine individual in The World Government? How do we know that Kong isn't going to fight the Yonkou in the final war? How do we know that The Gorosei aren't powerful? Even then that's excluding any yet to be seen non-Marine World Government fighters, including CP0 and who knows what else.

The Admirals are some of the main forces of The World Government either way. It's not like I'm suggesting that the Admirals are to The World Government what the Vice Admirals are to the Marines. The Admirals are some of the most dependable fighters in The World Government. It just has yet to be stated or implied that they are the absolute #1 individuals in The World Government, let alone that they are the counter to the Yonkou. Statements like “They're the pride of the Marines”, “They're the pride of The World Government”, “They're some of the top obstacles in The New World”, “They're the most powerful force in The Marines” all state and imply something significant- but they don't state or imply that the Admirals are the absolute #1 individuals in The World Government.

Yet even if it did, there's nothing that states that the absolute #1 individuals in The World Government have to be on par with the absolute #1 Pirates. It's not unreasonable to assume that they are, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that they might not be either.

I'm not sure what you mean by secret Members of The World Government nor why you think that I'm thinking that they're hiding a Kaguya type of character. I don't think that there will be any secret Members of The World Government significantly more powerful than any of the Yonkou. It's partially speculative, but I think that The Gorosei are some of the top tier Members of The World Government, and it's not that they're a secret. Oda just has yet to blatantly state whether they're powerful or not, and that's actually part of why I think that they're top tier. I don't see any point in Oda making them look powerful and seem mysterious, only to have them be little more than figure heads. I consider at least Garp, Kong, and the Fleet Admirals to be the #1 individuals in The World Government- if not also The Gorosei. I consider the Admirals to be The World Government's counter to some of the most powerful Pirates in general, but mostly the high level Yonkou Commander level characters. However, that's not because that was stated or implied. It's because of the many relatively even confrontations and/or match ups between high level Yonkou Commander level characters and the Admirals, as well as the Yonkou having significantly better portrayal than the Admirals so far. Another reason that I think often gets overlooked is that if the Admirals are going to be the ones matching up against the Yonkou level characters, who are going to be matching up against the high level Yonkou Commander level characters? The Vice Admirals? That seems very unlikely considering that the most powerful Vice Admiral that we've seen so far outside of Garp is Vergo, and we've already seen multiple 3rd or 4th most powerful Yonkou Commanders that are around a good deal more powerful than Vergo. CP0? They might be able to match up against some of them, but what about the others? Unless CP0 consists of 15-20 high level Yonkou Commander level characters, but every Cipher Pol organization that we've seen so far consists of no more than around 7 characters. Besides, relying on CP0 for that argument isn't much different than me suggesting that The Gorosei are top tier, if not even more speculative.

Also, Old Rayleigh stated that Luffy shouldn't go to The New World if an invasion like the one at Sabaody can come and defeat him without much of a problem. Yet Old Rayleigh thought that Luffy was ready to fend off that invasion around 6 months prior to Post Time Skip. So it's hard to believe that Luffy wouldn't be able to give an Admiral at least around high difficulty when Old Rayleigh thinks that a weaker version of Luffy can fend off a lot more firepower than just 1 Admiral. Yet there are still several major Arcs prior to the final war, so unless Luffy just stays around Yonkou level for 4-6 major Arcs, I don't see the Admirals being around as powerful as the Yonkou. Additionally, Old Rayleigh is below Yonkou level, and he has fought on par with an Admiral. If an Admiral can barely even counter Old Rayleigh how is he going to counter a Yonkou? Unless by counter The World Government just means offset somewhat.

As for your point on the Admirals being the ones shown to fight the Yonkou, we've only seen one War between The World Government and a Yonkou so far, and it only involved The Marines and The Shichibukai. If you're suggesting that The Gorosei and other yet to be seen characters in The World Government not being in the War means that they can't contribute- then where were Kong, CP0, Vergo, etc.? Kong is at least Admiral level even if we assume that the Admirals are around as powerful as the Yonkou. Yet Kong wasn't in the War. As for why, as powerful as a Yonkou Crew is there's still a lot more in The Universe than one Yonkou Crew. If all of The World Government's forces go to the War, who defends against The Revolutionaries and the other Yonkou and Pirates?

Garp mostly didn't fight because there was a conflict of interest for him in the War. Sengoku mostly didn't fight because he was positioned where Ace was at the time and was strategizing. He's the highest ranked Member of The Marines, and as such has to command the other Marines including the Admirals. Also, it's not like one Admiral was sent to match up against Old Whitebeard. All three Admirals were part of the War along with other Admiral level characters. Even then they alone weren't enough to defeat Old Whitebeard. Many other characters landed blows on Old Whitebeard. If just one Admiral were at the War or maybe even a couple Admirals, especially if they were the highest ranked Member of The Marines there, and they didn't request Doflamingo and Mihawk to be there- then I think that it might be a good point. However, requesting 6-7 Admiral level characters to match up against 1 Yonkou doesn't lead me to believe that the Admirals are around as powerful as the Yonkou, because I certainly don't think that it would take 6-7 Yonkou to be confident in defeating 1 ill and Old Yonkou. It would only take 1 or 2 Yonkou. Even then Sengoku wasn't that confident. He stated that The Whitebeard Pirates can win the War.


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## trance (Jan 5, 2017)

Gohara said:


> they aren't more powerful than Garp and the Fleet Admirals.



In your opinion, I presume?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 5, 2017)

Based on feats and portrayal in the war, Garp looked better than anyone fighting for WG. He was the only character able to swat aside a fellow top-tier character in Marco like nothing, and it was heavily implied that he could have killed Akainu. There's no reason to believe he couldn't when a weakened version of Whitebeard that was extremely overrated/damaged at that point almost managed to. I see no reason to put Sengoku higher than C3 or Garp. Even with his title, Sengoku appeared weaker than all of them.

As it stands, Garp is stronger than C3 or Sengoku, and Sengoku is the weakest (albeit on the same level).


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## Gohara (Jan 5, 2017)

@ Kyouko.

Well there's a lot of evidence that Garp and Akainu are more powerful than the Admirals, so it's basically a fact in their cases.  For Kong and Sengoku, technically yes, although I question what categories the Admirals best Sengoku in.  Outside of Kizaru being faster than Sengoku, I can't think of any.  Sengoku is likely physically stronger than the Admirals, though, and arguably has better Devil Fruit Abilities than them as well.  In most major Shonen series, rank also tends to go hand in hand with how powerful characters are.  So it's an opinion, but IMO one that a great argument can be made for.  Even then, that's for Sengoku being more powerful than the Admirals.  An even better argument can be made for Sengoku being at least around as powerful as the Admirals.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 5, 2017)

I think Akainu is stronger then Garp and Sengoku. 

Espicailly current Sengoku who looks like he stopped giving a fuck.


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## Sherlōck (Jan 6, 2017)

IMO Post-TS Aokiji beating Akainu = Prime Garp > Prime Sengoku > Current Sengoku.


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## trance (Jan 6, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Kyouko.
> 
> Well there's a lot of evidence that Garp and Akainu are more powerful than the Admirals, so it's basically a fact in their cases.



Akainu proved his superiority over Aokiji is negligible, lacks a direct comparison with Kizaru and while he may have improved over the timeskip, it's still subjective at this point

We know Garp still ranks amongst the strongest Marines alive but other than that, his exact placement relative to the Admirals is unknown and hence, subject to change

Basically, Akainu and Garp being a full step above the other Admirals is an opinion at this point and while not baseless or unfounded, it's hardly fact/evidence/proof



> For Kong and Sengoku, technically yes



Sounds more like an opinion that may or may not be right to me



> In most major Shonen series, rank also tends to go hand in hand with how powerful characters are.



Yes but it's not _always_ this way and in OP, it's not confirmed whether the Fleet Admiral equates to being the strongest Marine - generally speaking of course



> So it's an opinion, but IMO one that a great argument can be made for.  Even then, that's for Sengoku being more powerful than the Admirals.  An even better argument can be made for Sengoku being at least around as powerful as the Admirals.



You do you man

I'm just making sure we don't mislabel opinions as facts and vice versa until we have more to work with than what we currently have


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## Pocalypse (Jan 6, 2017)

Samehadaman said:


> When I start to think I've outgrown Gohara's infamous tiers



Remember when he said Shanks can _*no-diff *_(or was it neg-diff? wouldn't be surprised) Akainu? I had it my sig once.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 6, 2017)

People who don't know the first thing about debating like to disparage @Gohara  and @Juvia  because they can't beat them with sound arguments.

These people don't even know what constitutes a valid argument but run around insulting those who have a clue. They can't even clear deductive reasoning let alone reductive, inductive etc.

If you can't refure what you view as a ''controversial'' opinion then it probably isn't that controversial logically or you are inept.

OT Garp had better portrayal against Marco than any Admiral. Fleet Admiral Saka is probably stronger though.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 6, 2017)

FakeTaxi1738 said:


> BOI , Kizaru wasnt even serious against Rayleigh



Kizaru: ...Unfortunately, if I were to capture you here...... / You wouldn't exactly be... the _easiest_ of captives to deal with, to say the least...

Kizaru: .........Wheeew... / Now, this is quite a fix...... And to think, I was feeling so pleasant when I arrived on this island, too...

Sentoumaru: Looks like this "Dark King" is actually the real deal... / I've never seen a guy who can actually stop Uncle before...!! // Ugh, we had Roronoa, the guy worth over a hundred million, right where we wanted him, and...! // Pacifista 1!! Roronoa's almost had it!! Take him out first!!

Kizaru: I'm afraid my subordinates will be more than a match for them......!!

Kizaru: You're holding off a Marine Admiral and still you want more...? / Come now, please... you're embarrassing me here!


Kizaru ended up letting Rayleigh get away. He never attempted to capture him at Sabaody because of how much a threat he is. As Kizaru says, he's not an easy opponent, and he himself stated that Rayleigh was holding him off from killing Straw Hats (seeing his subordinates had to deal with them). When Kizaru tried to carelessly attack them, it didn't go too well. You're heavily underestimating Rayleigh. If Kizaru wasn't serious in this situation, he would have been killed. His expression of "Hahh!!!" when clashing with Rayleigh suggests grief and seriousness from the damage he took before.


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## Jake CENA (Jan 6, 2017)

Rayleigh is retired. there's no need for him to kill Aokiji since it will only open up a whole new world of trouble for him and he doesn't want that. that's he switched to a coating ships as a job. 

He was only holding off Kizaru but he doesn't have the intent of killing him. 

Everyone in SA would get killed if both Kizaru and Rayleigh went all out and that is stupid just for apprehending a weak ass Supernova crew.


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## FakeTaxi1738 (Jan 6, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> Kizaru ended up letting Rayleigh get away. He never attempted to capture him at Sabaody because of how much a threat he is. As Kizaru says, he's not an easy opponent, and he himself stated that Rayleigh was holding him off from killing Straw Hats (seeing his subordinates had to deal with them). When Kizaru tried to carelessly attack them, it didn't go too well. You're heavily underestimating Rayleigh. If Kizaru wasn't serious in this situation, he would have been killed. His expression of "Hahh!!!" when clashing with Rayleigh suggests grief and seriousness from the damage he took before.


How can Kizaru be serious if he didnt use his main fighting style against Rayleigh ? Sentomaru and the pacifista dominate the Shs, Kizaru doesnt even need to be here.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 6, 2017)

FakeTaxi1738 said:


> How can Kizaru be serious if he didnt use his main fighting style against Rayleigh ? Sentomaru and the pacifista dominate the Shs, Kizaru doesnt even need to be here.



Because it's stupid for a Logia to spread their element against someone as powerful as Rayleigh with Haki that's ridiculously potent. When he used Yata no Kagami, Rayleigh cut the beam and ended up damaging Kizaru in the process. He already learned from his mistake and pulled out a sword to prevent that from happening again. Kizaru's sword was named like other attacks he used. It was not insignificant by any means.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 6, 2017)

TerminaTHOR said:


> Everyone in SA would get killed if both Kizaru and Rayleigh went all out and that is stupid just for apprehending a weak ass Supernova crew.



Kizaru couldn't give two shits about destroying Sabaody or killing civilians with attacks (mangrove kick), and WG would love for him to kill Rayleigh or bring him in at the cost of one island. WG have no morals and would have no issue sacrificing an entire island for Rayleigh. He lets Rayleigh go because - even if he wins - his condition would be critical before Marineford. They would never sacrifice one admiral for Rayleigh before Marineford. It's a group effort when it comes to these things to minimize casualties between marines.

Kizaru would never bring in Rayleigh alive, anyway. Lol


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## Jake CENA (Jan 6, 2017)

Lel civilians were cheering for the Marines and the WG also value the lives of civilians although they can't do shit if the Celestial Dragons are the ones who are being unruly to civilians. 

See how you contradict yourself there. "WG would love for him to kill Rayleigh or bring him in at the cost of one island"
Kizaru would be critical if he tries to kill/capture Rayleigh like what you were trying to say here: "He lets Rayleigh go because - even if he wins - his condition would be critical before Marineford." but "They would never sacrifice one admiral for someone like Rayleigh."

then go back to your first sentence.

it wont be a team effort since none of those marine fodders cant even stand up to Rayleigh's CoC haki. it will be a 1v1 match with Kizaru or maybe 3v1. Kizaru, Sentomaru and PX1 vs. Rayleigh. It will be a huge mess. Pacifista's lasers alone can destroy the whole archipelago. What more if Kizaru went all out. There would be no survivors. 

you cant have something without risking or sacrificing too ya know


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 6, 2017)

TerminaTHOR said:


> Lel civilians were cheering for the Marines and the WG also value the lives of civilians although they can't do shit if the Celestial Dragons are the ones who are being unruly to civilians.
> 
> See how you contradict yourself there. "WG would love for him to kill Rayleigh or bring him in at the cost of one island"
> Kizaru would be critical if he tries to kill/capture Rayleigh like what you were trying to say here: "He lets Rayleigh go because - even if he wins - his condition would be critical before Marineford." but "They would never sacrifice one admiral for someone like Rayleigh."
> ...



You don't get the point. There's no contradiction here. Kizaru didn't come to the island expecting to find Rayleigh. He heard rumors about Rayleigh being there, but it wasn't the reason he was there. A squad being sent to take care of Rayleigh is entirely different from the one that was sent to deal with lower-level targets. WG doesn't care about civilians at all when it's involving high-value targets like Rayleigh or trying to hide information, as shown when the incident of prisoners from Level 6 was forced to be kept a secret and had Sengoku raging. Marines ultimately answer to WG, and Kizaru generally follows his orders. However, an admiral has the job to bring down pirates that are powerful. Trying to add Kizaru's subordinates into the equation doesn't apply here because they weren't sent with Kizaru to take on Rayleigh. The reason Kizaru let Rayleigh go is because he wasn't confident in his own ability to take down Rayleigh without being heavily injured or being killed. He would need good reinforcements to take on Rayleigh comfortably.

Civilians won't be cheering when they're dying in the crossfire between top tiers. Dumb response

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## FakeTaxi1738 (Jan 6, 2017)

Rayleigh was panting against Kizaru just by swordmanship how the fuck can he put Kizaru in a critical condition ? even after the fight ,Kizaru didnt care about Rayleigh. Also I dont even think the WG want Rayleigh , Kizaru probably said to his superior he meet Rayleigh and its been 2 years now Rayleigh is still free. Also Kizaru doesnt want to kill civilian.

Kizaru heavily injured or killed by old rayleigh ?
Ayt I am done.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Jake CENA (Jan 6, 2017)

Marineford War arc has shown civilians cheering the Marines especially when they killed Ace 

The Marines are the good guys here in the eye of the civilians. Pirates are the bad guys.

Kizaru doesn't give a shit about Rayleigh. The dude is retired and old. He's not even a wanted man anymore. If Rayleigh was really that important and would be a big catch for the WG, then Kizaru would've let the Supernovas escape UNHARMED and he would have to deal with Rayleigh and capture him instead.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 6, 2017)

TerminaTHOR said:


> Marineford War arc has shown civilians cheering the Marines especially when they killed Ace
> 
> The Marines are the good guys here in the eye of the civilians. Pirates are the bad guys.
> 
> Kizaru doesn't give a shit about Rayleigh. The dude is retired and old. He's not even a wanted man anymore. If Rayleigh was really that important and would be a big catch for the WG, then Kizaru would've let the Supernovas escape UNHARMED and he would have to deal with Rayleigh and capture him instead.



Were there civilians on Marineford? I don't think so.
Marineford was essentially a broadcast throughout the world. The island was prepared for military action against an emperor. There were few civilians on the island, if any. Not sure why many civilians would be on a marine base before war, anyway. Anyone would be evacuated. That doesn't address my point of Kizaru being careless on islands with civilians around, either, showing that he just doesn't care about civilian lives when he is killing pirates (as shown on Sabaody). Like I said, civilians wouldn't be standing around top-tier opponents in a fight and cheering. They would be running for their lives.

If Kizaru doesn't give a shit about Rayleigh, explain this:
Kizaru: The sins of a pirate do not simply disappear...!! / Much less those of the Roger Pirates.

Kizaru made an exception here. Rayleigh is considered a threat because he knows Void Century and was the first mate of the strongest crew out there. The dude just advocated piracy right in front of Kizaru by helping pirates, too. Kizaru even addresses such. He goes on his way to get Straw Hats and thinks Rayleigh is just a pushover that will do nothing. Then he gets embarrassed and stopped right in his tracks. His subordinates needed to deal with Straw Hats because he couldn't with Rayleigh around. He wanted nothing to do with Rayleigh because he didn't have the reinforcements to back him up.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 7, 2017)

FakeTaxi1738 said:


> Rayleigh was panting against Kizaru just by swordmanship how the fuck can he put Kizaru in a critical condition ? even after the fight ,Kizaru didnt care about Rayleigh. Also I dont even think the WG want Rayleigh , Kizaru probably said to his superior he meet Rayleigh and its been 2 years now Rayleigh is still free. Also Kizaru doesnt want to kill civilian.
> 
> Kizaru heavily injured or killed by old rayleigh ?
> Ayt I am done.



Panting proves nothing. Zoro was panting against Pica and ended up destroying him. Are you implying that Zoro was at his limit? Are you implying that Sabo was at his limit when fighting Fujitora? Rayleigh swam across Calm Belt and killed Sea Kings on the way there. That's far more exhausting than a brief skirmish with Kizaru. To be fair, Rayleigh also hadn't used his sword that way in a long time. Like I said, Kizaru let Rayleigh go because there was nothing he could do about it. "Kizaru didn't care about Rayleigh" goes against the manga. If WG didn't care about Rayleigh, they would have taken down his bounty... yet they never did. And that's why Rayleigh can't retire, as he says.

If Kizaru doesn't want to kill civilians, then why does he use destructive attacks on an island that houses citizens? He's an admiral and doesn't need such attacks to take down Supernova before the timeskip. He's careless and does whatever he deems necessary to bring down pirates. The exception on that island was Rayleigh, as he wasn't prepared to take on someone like that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jake CENA (Jan 7, 2017)

Kizaru didn't hit any civilians when he rushed through SA. the 2 assholes who shot him are pirates, some fodders who got killed were a part of someone else's pirate crew when he confronted Basil Hawkins.

They wont risk going all out since the Tenryuubito is also present in the island.

You don't get the point. Civilians treat the Marines as heroes since they are the ones who are fighting pirates(evil people) that's why they are cheering for them. Civilians see Roger as some kind of evil demon and Ace is the spawn of that demon that's why everybody hates him and they all rejoiced after the Marines killed him.



> If Kizaru doesn't give a shit about Rayleigh, explain this:
> Kizaru: The sins of a pirate do not simply disappear...!! / Much less those of the Roger Pirates.



Kizaru was pertaining to Rayleigh's status since he is a retired pirate and is now living peacefully in SA. Kizaru might be holding some kind of grudge but that is on some personal level and Oda did not bother to focus on that part.

It was the other way around, Kizaru sent his reinforcements to deal with the Supernovas since Sentomaru and the Pacifistas are more than enough to wipe them out. Kizaru hold off Rayleigh to prevent him from rescuing the SH and he was successful till Kuma interfered.

Kizaru was being sarcastic all the time. It is part of his persona. He simply doesn't give a shit about capturing Rayleigh


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 7, 2017)

TerminaTHOR said:


> Kizaru didn't hit any civilians when he rushed through SA. the 2 assholes who shot him are pirates, some fodders who got killed were a part of someone else's pirate crew when he confronted Basil Hawkins.
> 
> They wont risk going all out since the Tenryuubito is also present in the island.



Not the point at all. There were still civilians on that island, and I'm not even referring to pirates. Kizaru was using destructive techniques that weren't needed against the type of opponent he was facing, even though civilians were on that island. It shows that he just doesn't care when he is taking down pirates. Kizaru completely destroying the island in a fight with Rayleigh is stupid for him, anyway. He's a Logia and would be at the disadvantage if he had no ground to stand on. He uses a sword for good reason against Rayleigh.



> You don't get the point. Civilians treat the Marines as heroes since they are the ones who are fighting pirates(evil people) that's why they are cheering for them. Civilians see Roger as some kind of evil demon and Ace is the spawn of that demon that's why everybody hates him and they all rejoiced after the Marines killed him.



What are you even talking about? All I'm saying is civilians wouldn't be cheering on a marine when they're actually within the vicinity of some fight with another top-tier character.



> Kizaru was pertaining to Rayleigh's status since he is a retired pirate and is now living peacefully in SA.



And he states that right after Rayleigh says he can't retire because his bounty is still active. An active bounty means he is wanted by the government, and it's particularly noted that Rayleigh is considered a special case (once being in Roger's crew).



> Kizaru might be holding some kind of grudge but that is on some personal level and Oda did not bother to focus on that part.



Conjecture.



> It was the other way around, Kizaru sent his reinforcements to deal with the Supernovas since Sentomaru and the Pacifistas are more than enough to wipe them out. Kizaru hold off Rayleigh to prevent him from rescuing the SH and he was successful till Kuma interfered.
> 
> Kizaru was being sarcastic all the time. It is part of his persona. He simply doesn't give a shit about capturing Rayleigh



Kizaru: *You're holding off a Marine Admiral* and still you want more...? / Come now, please... you're embarrassing me here!

Kizaru states that Rayleigh was holding him off, so you're wrong on that one. His goal of taking down Straw Hats on his own went downhill when Rayleigh slashed him. Yes, Old Rayleigh couldn't have saved them and fought Kizaru at the same time, but you're acting as if Kizaru wasn't in some predicament himself.

You're arguing with feats.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jake CENA (Jan 7, 2017)

Kizaru knows pretty well that he can hold off Rayleigh and he is being sarcastic because he also knows that Rayleigh can't kill him even if he tried. That's why he let the Pacifistas take over and kill the Supernovas. Actually Kizaru is already overkill for the SH. Kuma alone extremely low diff all of them.

I'm talking about civilians in the OP world in general not the one's who were present in Shabondy. Marines have the reputation of upholding the law and protecting the civilians that's why they are treated as heroes.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 7, 2017)

TerminaTHOR said:


> Kizaru knows pretty well that he can hold off Rayleigh and he is being sarcastic because he also knows that Rayleigh can't kill him even if he tried.



That's a lot of conjecture there. Do you mind backing it up with feats?
They were both holding each other off. If Rayleigh is just a joke to Kizaru, why did he stop to fight Rayleigh after getting damaged and not just continue to pursue Straw Hats?

He couldn't get away from Rayleigh because - if he broke his concentration - he would be attacked and potentially killed. Rayleigh throws his warning shot and forces Kizaru into a fight that he can't avoid. If Kizaru knew that Rayleigh couldn't kill him, he wouldn't be visibly damaged and definitely wouldn't have stopped to fight Rayleigh. If Kizaru knew Rayleigh couldn't kill him, why did he let a special pirate with an active bounty go free? I've already explained why and haven't gotten any type of response yet.



> That's why he let the Pacifistas take over and kill the Supernovas. Actually Kizaru is already overkill for the SH. Kuma alone extremely low diff all of them.



Answer my question. We know Straw Hats couldn't take on Kizaru's reinforcements.
How can Kizaru take on Rayleigh and still accomplish his goal of taking down Straw Hats?

Old Rayleigh couldn't have helped Straw Hats while taking on Kizaru, but Kizaru himself states that he is being held off. Kizaru states that he's having a pleasant day before meeting Rayleigh, calls him not an "easy" target and then states that he is being held off.

If you ask me, that's an equal portrayal bar the fact that Kizaru lets Rayleigh go and therefore gives Rayleigh better portrayal.



> I'm talking about civilians in the OP world in general not the one's who were present in Shabondy. Marines have the reputation of upholding the law and protecting the civilians that's why they are treated as heroes.



I don't care. It has absolutely nothing to do with civilian encounters on Sabaody that evidently don't mean everything to Kizaru. Trying to argue that Kizaru would protect the lives of civilians while accomplishing his goal of taking down pirates has already contradicted itself. He has used unnecessary force on pirates that are several times weaker than him (combined). Marines uphold the law, but they also destroy refugee ships and use destructive attacks on islands that contain innocent civilians. The point simply doesn't stand.

Civilians - other than the notion that they wouldn't prevent Kizaru from doing his job - have no significance in this discussion.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

FakeTaxi1738 said:


> Rayleigh was panting against Kizaru just by swordmanship how the fuck can he put Kizaru in a critical condition ? even after the fight ,Kizaru didnt care about Rayleigh. Also I dont even think the WG want Rayleigh , Kizaru probably said to his superior he meet Rayleigh and its been 2 years now Rayleigh is still free. Also Kizaru doesnt want to kill civilian.
> 
> Kizaru heavily injured or killed by old rayleigh ?
> Ayt I am done.



Who was bleeding Kizaru or Rayleigh?

If Kizaru could capture Roger's FM then he would have.

How embarrassing that a man that hasn't picked up a sword in 20 years or fought can stalemate an admiral.



TerminaTHOR said:


> Kizaru doesn't give a shit about Rayleigh. The dude is retired and old. *He's not even a wanted man anymore*. If Rayleigh was really that important and would be a big catch for the WG, then Kizaru would've let the Supernovas escape UNHARMED and he would have to deal with Rayleigh and capture him instead.



Was it a visual bug when rayleigh said they should remove his bounty and Kizaru said the sins of pirates could not be forgiven?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> How embarrassing that a man that hasn't picked up a sword in 20 years or fought can stalemate an admiral.



On top of that, Rayleigh was like 76 years old when that happened. He's even older than Whitebeard. Then the fact that he's way past his prime without the same ability and tries to live a peaceful life that WG takes away from him.

There's no argument for Kizaru. Garp wasn't joking when he told the marines to avoid that, and he's the one who actually has knowledge regarding Rayleigh's power. And Kizaru must respect that opinion based on his actions.


*"Kizaru knows pretty well that he can hold off Rayleigh and he is being sarcastic because he also knows that Rayleigh can't kill him even if he tried."
*
The logic is just in another universe. I'm done arguing here.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## trance (Jan 8, 2017)

This Rayleigh downplay smh

I generally keep and maintain a pro Admiral stance but the confrontation between Kizaru and Rayleigh was that of peers

We're not talking any ordinary, washed up old man here but the Dark King, a guy so skilled and powerful that Garp of all people was reluctant to unnecessarily provoke him, even putting him in the same breath as Whitebeard, which is some of the highest respect you can give a pirate

Basically, what Garp means to say is, unless you're a powerhouse yourself, don't piss off Rayleigh; he's got the feats, hype and portrayal to back it all up too

Reactions: Like 3


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## Samehadaman (Jan 8, 2017)

Kizaru's sarcasm is an established character trait. I think it shouldn't be used in either direction, that is, we shouldn't pretend he's not a sarcastic guy and take what he says at face value (he's afraid or wathever), and we shouldn't pretend that because he's sarcastic it means he has nothing to worry about either.

He taunts a nameless fodder background character and he taunted Whitebeard too. Doesn't mean the fodder can stomp him and it doesn't mean he can stomp Whitebeard. It's just like Luffy never being afraid. He wasn't afraid of all 3 Admirals standing in front  of him in Marineford, doesn't mean he's going to win or lose, it's how he is.

The scene itself was fairly clear in that they both required each other's full attention, hence why Kizaru had to stop pursuit and why Rayleigh couldn't help the Strawhats anymore.
Neither of them is the type to go "woe is me" and shit his pants regardless of the situation, if anything they are the two characters most likely to appear to be having a great time mid-fight, with Kizaru's trolling and Rayleigh's low-key personality.

(Also, why dafuq am I joining in a Kizaru Rayleigh debate in a thread about Cracker vs Aokiji)

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gohara (Jan 9, 2017)

@ kyouko.


I think that it's debatable exactly how much difficulty Aokiji gave Pre Time Skip Akainu, although I think that we can agree that it was a lot of difficulty. Either way, though, even if the difference in power is relatively small Pre Time Skip Akainu is still more powerful than Aokiji. I suppose that it's true that it's not factual in the case of the other Admirals, but at the very least it shows that Pre Time Skip Akainu isn't any weaker than the Admirals. Which is technically what we're discussing anyways. Between Pre Time Skip Akainu besting Aokiji and him standing out in The Marineford War Arc, though, I think that there's a lot of evidence suggesting that he's the most powerful Admiral that we've seen so far. Again, perhaps not enough to call it a full fledged fact, but again we're technically discussing whether or not he's weaker than the Admirals- and I think that there's at least enough proof for that. The same goes for Garp if not even more so. True, though, it's not technically a fact that they're more powerful than all of the Admirals.


True about the ranks. It's not always the case and technically it has yet to be proven in One Piece. So I agree that's not a fact. That part is more so my opinion, although I don't think that it's necessarily baseless.


Fair enough. A lot of the discussion about the Admirals is not yet factual so I certainly don't want to give off the impression that I think that my opinions on them are factual. Not many things are factual and I've found that when it comes to Manga/Anime, even less things are factual, and even some of the things that do seem factual turn out to be wrong.


@ FakeTaxi.


-Right, in that panel they're called The Ultimate Military Force, and the Marines are the Military. Not even the most powerful individuals in the Marines, let alone in The World Government. If you're referring to Robin saying The World Government, we should note that she says the title was given to them by The World Government, not that the title applies to all of The World Government's forces. There's a big difference between saying “They're the most powerful force in The World Government” and “The World Government gave them the title of The Ultimate Military Force”, especially since the Marines are the Military.


-If there's one thing that I don't like about Oda's writing, it's how much time there is between each Arc. It's somewhat strange that Pre Time Skip is less than 2 years as it is, and therefore The Straw Hat Pirates get so powerful relatively quickly. So it might seem strange for Luffy to be around or close to Admiral level in less than 4 years as a Pirate, but it's not inconsistent with how One Piece works. It's strange that he's already more powerful than most Yonkou Commanders. Either way, I don't see how that counters what Old Rayleigh stated. Regardless of how strange we find how quickly Luffy gets so powerful, that's still how Oda writes the series.


-I respectfully disagree. Kizaru expressed frustration at Luffy escaping, so between that and the other posts that have been made in this thread, I would argue that Kizaru was serious against Old Rayleigh. Your view on how much of their own power they were using is opinionated, and while I respect your views on the matter, I still think that Kizaru's frustration and statements are more evidence that they were both trying around the same amount.


-What makes you suggest that such is what Sengoku was saying? Even if it was, they would have to occupy all of The Marines and Shichibukai to do that.


-We've already seen that The Marines and Shichibukai alone aren't enough to match 4 Yonkou. When they were challenged by a second Yonkou Crew- and not even at the same time as the other Yonkou Crew- they surrendered. Keep in mind that The Marines and The Shichibukai aren't the only forces of The World Government, and that The World Government also benefits from the Yonkou going to War against each other.


-It has only been stated that the Yonkou and the Admirals are some of the obstacles in The New World. That doesn't necessarily mean that all obstacles are around the same level of power. Luffy doesn't yet know about The Gorosei so he would have no way of knowing that they would also be obstacles if they indeed are, and when Luffy said Admirals he was likely including the Fleet Admiral as well. Luffy doesn't know about the top forces in The World Government outside of the Fleet Admiral and the Admirals, so naturally they're the ones that he would mention. Again, though, even if that weren't the case simply being obstacles doesn't necessarily mean that all obstacles are around the same level of power.


-As I said, there's a good possibility that The Gorosei are powerful. Even without The Gorosei there are the Fleet Admirals and currently Garp and 3 Fleet Admirals work for The World Government. 4 Fleet Admiral level characters could be the ones to counter the Yonkou but even if not there are also The Gorosei. I would actually turn that argument around and ask you who matches up against the Yonkou Commanders? You yourself seem to agree that it wouldn't be the Vice Admirals, at least when it comes to the high level Yonkou Commanders. Using your same reasoning, actually, wouldn't that still give the Pirates a huge advantage? Since the Yonkou would counter the Fleet Admirals and Admirals, that would leave a ton of Yonkou Commanders without any match ups. So wouldn't they then overwhelm The World Government? Presumably you're thinking that secret forces in The World Government would match up against them, but why does that argument only apply for the Yonkou Commanders and not the Yonkou? Not to mention there's still The Revolutionaries.


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## GucciBandana (Jan 23, 2017)

I was always confused on how aokiji actually fights, seems like he can't just freeze high tier people at will with ice age in the middle of the fight, he could freeze people with ice time but it requires him to be grabbing the enemy or at least really close to them, ice ball is what? A projectile that hits the enemy and turn into an ice ball? Or just a ball of ice forms around the enemy when aokiji wants it to? The attack he used on ace and luffy, ice shaped bird, what does it to if it hits? Freezes people? Or just hits real hard physically?
Seems like aokiji likes to make ice saber or ice spears to attack the enemy physically a lot, he ice timed jozu when jozu was "distracted", and ice timed doffy when doffy was attacking smoker, thus how effective would that be against an enemy around that tier in a face to face battle? Hard to say.

By powerscaling, aokiji is world government highest military power, def stronger than cracker by a good margin, just not sure how he fights so very hard to determine difficulty. 
Yonko commanders should be able to hold off an admiral for a bit, I don't see aokiji taking out cracker quickly.

But mindset aside, if you wanna compare physical feats, does aokiji ice saber getting blocked by Long Island zoro, kicked out of his hands by sanji, sent flying in the air, and body cracked by robin counts?


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## savior2005 (Jan 23, 2017)

aokiji low diff. the clones get wrecked, and aokiji wrecks cracker himself. i cant see it going any other way or any higher diff. hell, its prolly less than low diff


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 20, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yes let's not rely on the actual manga. It's really strange that you and @Admiral Kizaru are in this cult (Admiral) but you won't read the ''bible''(manga)  so to speak.
> 
> If Fujitora being serious can do nothing to a non-serious Luffy in cqc, while a serious Luffy got overpowered by Cracker in G2/3, then Kuzan has little chance against Cracker in cqc. He has not been shown to have strength above the other admirals.



fujitora would obliterate cracker,cracker cant do a shit against fujitora,all fujitora needs to do is gravity crush cracker and one meteor will be more than enough to destroy all of cracker's biscuit soldiers.

and you do realize that fujitora was focusing most of his energy in holding all the rubble of dressrosa,obviously luffy would push him back


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 20, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> You are bringing up points I refuted in the very post you quoted. Don't reply to me if you are illiterate.
> 
> They all backed down with only Akainu noticeably injured. Sengoku the strategist elected not to fight. He did not qualify it with anything, he just backed down. Unlike WB, Shanks' haki was working perfectly. The Yonnko fought a healthy WB for territory. We saw what an overwhelmingly nerfed Yonko did to Akainu. Shanks would mid-diff him.
> 
> ...



whitEbeard low difficultys akainu?lol whitebeard never came close to beating akainu.he could not a shit to any admiral.
he had to sneak attack akainu when he was fighting marco,and yet akainu got up and melts half of whitebeard's skull.akainu then tanked whitebeard's island splitting quake and fought all commanders +  shichibukai by himself.old whitebard did nothing to akainu,he could not even break a single bone,he got back up and kept on fighting.

you seriously think commanders are at admiral level?
the are nowhere near admiral level.
the combined attacks of marco and vista could only annoy akainu,it is a clear evidence that commanders are nowhere near admiral level.

oh and when did everyone back down when shanks came?
lol stop making up shit whch did not happen.
akainu called shanks a scum and kizaru proceeded to completely ignore benn beckman's threats and attacked law's submarine,even aokiji completely ignored shanks even though he was like 5 meters away and froze the sea,what was shanks doing?he would have died had sengoku continued the war


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## Canute87 (Jan 20, 2018)

Aokiji can crowd control.

This is an easy fight for him,  same for all the other admirals.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiden34 (Jan 20, 2018)

Akainu didn't fight all commanders by himself. He had half of the marine forces as a back-up. Pirates were already at disadvantage in number, after losing WB and Jozu, they were at disadvantage and Akainu just used that advantage.

MF WB was far weaker than the WB that Marco and Crocodile knew, to use that nerfed WB to hype Admirals isn't fair at all. I would say any Yonko would beat MF WB in one-on-one since they were able to hold their own against a much powerful WB who was their enemy in the New World.

Akainu obviously scared off from Shanks as he didn't continue to attack even before Sengoku's orders to stopping the fight. Shanks's presence were more than enough to stop Akainu.

There was no one there to stop Aokiji, Shanks stopped Akainu and Beckman stopped Kizaru. Of course Aokiji was able to attack the sub marine that no one else protected.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 20, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Beckman stopped Kizaru.



And what a fine job he did.

Reactions: Like 3 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Quipchaque (Jan 20, 2018)

Jigen said:


> And what a fine job he did.



You do understand Beckman was bluffing, right? Shanks flat-out said they came to end the war, not to provoke more fighting so obviously Beckman refused to attack Kizaru. You can´t possibly believe he wouldn´t be able to do anything just because Kizaru jumps into the air even so Beckman has a gun in his hand. Typcial Admiral fan overhype attempt.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Dunno (Jan 20, 2018)

Marquess Aokiji defeats Viscount Cracker with low diff. Ice age is probably able to one-shot, and even if it's not, Aokiji just needs to spam it a couple of times and Cracker will be no more.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 20, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You do understand Beckman was bluffing, right? Shanks flat-out said they came to end the war, not to provoke more fighting.


How do you think they were going to do that? By inviting everyone to a tea party? They were ready to fight anyone who wanted to continue the war. And I doubt that Ben (who had already given Kizaru fair warning) attacking Kizaru would have provoked the Marines to keep fighting.


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## MO (Jan 20, 2018)

aokiji wins with aroung midd diff.


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## Luke (Jan 20, 2018)

Aokiji wins, mid difficulty.


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## Zoro20 (Jan 20, 2018)

Aokiji is a bad matchup for cracker
He absolutely beats the crap out of him


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 20, 2018)

lol Aokji destroys him low difficulty. 

As @Canute87 says the Admirals are the worst matchup for Cracker. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> You do understand Beckman was bluffing, right? Shanks flat-out said they came to end the war, not to provoke more fighting so obviously Beckman refused to attack Kizaru. You can´t possibly believe he wouldn´t be able to do anything just because Kizaru jumps into the air even so Beckman has a gun in his hand. Typcial Admiral fan overhype attempt.




@Erkan12 said that Beckman stopped Kizaru which is what @Jigen pointed out is completely false as Kizaru brazenly ignored Beckman and treated him like an chump by ignoring his threat and proceeding to attack the sub much to to the utter despair of Beckman.  

And a threat is only worth something if you're prepared to see it through. 

Beckman wasn't either prepared or capable of seeing it through. I suspect it's more the latter.


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## DA hawk (Jan 21, 2018)

The yonkou Vs admiral controversy will never end as each side has certain 'feats/portrayal' as the foundation of their opinion and interpret the manga based on it. Hell, people can't agree on who won between WB and akainu even though we've seen it all on panel.
dudes need to chill a bit and accept that there are other valid interpretations than their own. Would help reduce the constant flaming and mocking that goes around here.

OT: thread should've ended when even gohara sided with the admiral. Aokigi wins!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sherlōck (Jan 21, 2018)

DA hawk said:


> OT: thread should've ended when even gohara sided with the admiral.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Quipchaque (Jan 21, 2018)

Jigen said:


> How do you think they were going to do that? By inviting everyone to a tea party? They were ready to fight anyone who wanted to continue the war. And I doubt that Ben (who had already given Kizaru fair warning) attacking Kizaru would have provoked the Marines to keep fighting.



Oh I don´t know by talking with them as Shanks did? And successfully so? As I said you can´t honestly believe that Beckman was seriously powerless just because Kizaru jumped a bit up into the air, he has a gun in his hand man yet he refused to use it in that situation. Same thing for Shanks. Didn´t you see how he deliberately ignored Aokiji´s assault? They were willing to fight if it´s necessary but it was not and they clearly wanted to choose wisely if they have to fight.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 21, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Oh I don´t know by talking with them as Shanks did?


I wonder what he would have done if someone wanted to continue the war? 


DiscoZoro20 said:


> As I said you can´t honestly believe that Beckman was seriously powerless just because Kizaru jumped a bit up into the air.


Kizaru is one of the fastest characters in the series and Ben wasn't able to react in time to stop him. Nothing wrong with that.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Creative 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 21, 2018)

Jigen said:


> I wonder what he would have done if someone wanted to continue the war?
> 
> Kizaru is one of the fastest characters in the series and Ben wasn't able to react in time to stop him. Nothing wrong with that.



_Then_ they would have chosen to fight obviously but that still doesn´t change that they chose to try talk with the Marines first. Also prove that Beckman was unable to react in time. He had enough time to intercept Kizaru while Kiz was charging his attack. This is some next level downplay to make Beckman look like fodder. Also are you perhaps implying that Shanks also was too slow to stop Aokiji? To me it simply looks like both refused to attack the admirals. Nothing more nothing less.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 21, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Also prove that Beckman was unable to react in time.


I don't have to. The manga did it for me when Ben failed absolutely miserably to stop him. 


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Also are you perhaps implying that Shanks also was too slow to stop Aokiji?


I can't find where Aokiji was and how far away he was from Shanks and Akainu when he froze the sea (unless you can point it out, which would be appreciated), so cba to speculate on it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 21, 2018)

Jigen said:


> I don't have to. The manga did it for me when Ben failed absolutely miserably to stop him.
> 
> I can't find where Aokiji was and how far away he was from Shanks and Akainu when he froze the sea (unless you can point it out, which would be appreciated), so cba to speculate on it.



Nah it really didn´t. You are just pushing your own interpretation on it. If someone has enough time to comment on a guy charging to attack then he also has enough time to attack him with a gun. You are in denial here. About the Aokiji scene I actually noticed that it´s not as clearly visible as in the anime how far away Aokiji actually is from Shanks and Beckman but regardless the point still stands. Nobody made a move to attempt stop it and nobody attacked Kizaru and Aokiji afterwards to make them calm down. Heck we have Shanks reinforcing the argument I made just a few pages later with him saying "don´t prolong this battle, please withdraw quietly Marco". It´s astounding that you can´t accept that the red-hair pirates didn´t want to continue fighting when it´s clearly implied and stated at multiple pages.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 21, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> About the Aokiji scene I actually noticed that it´s not as clearly visible as in the anime how far away Aokiji actually is from Shanks.


Okay, then let's just agree to leave that be for now.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nah it really didn´t.


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## Quipchaque (Jan 21, 2018)

Jigen said:


> Okay, then let's just agree to leave that be for now.



What is that supposed to prove? You are still ignoring statements and the character´s intentions. I have a feeling you just attempt to troll now.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 21, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> What is that supposed to prove?


That Ben was unable to prevent Kizaru from attacking the sub. Simple.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are still ignoring statements and the character´s intentions.


Okay, correct me if I'm wrong: you think that the Marines would have been provoked to keep fighting if Ben had attacked Kizaru, right? If so, I don't think they would have been. Ben was trying to stop Kizaru from killing someone important to Shanks and Ben had already given fair warning. It would have been incredibly stupid for the Marines to keep fighting in that scenario; the only way I could see them getting provoked is if Ben had flat out killed Kizaru, and that's not going to happen from one attack from Ben.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Quipchaque (Jan 21, 2018)

Jigen said:


> That Ben was unable to prevent Kizaru from attacking the sub. Simple.
> 
> Okay, correct me if I'm wrong: you think that the Marines would have been provoked to keep fighting if Ben had attacked Kizaru, right? If so, I don't think they would have been. Ben was trying to stop Kizaru from killing someone important to Shanks and Ben had already given fair warning. It would have been incredibly stupid for the Marines to keep fighting in that scenario; the only way I could see them getting provoked is if Ben had flat out killed Kizaru, and that's not going to happen from one attack from Ben.



So in other words you believe it helps Shanks´case if his officer attacks an admiral? Come now that´s nonsense lol. Just look how everyone reacted when Shanks merely attacked Whitebeard once on the ship. Everyone was like "wtf is going on.. is he here to fight?!?!?!" You can upset the opposing soldiers very easily if you attack one of their greatest fighters. In any case I would say my explanation is far more reasonable than you just repeatedly posting the twisted version of Kizaru attacking a ship with Beckman supposedly unable to do anything. Which tbh is a very ridiculous interpretation given that we are talking about a first mate of a yonko here. This isn´t the 15th division commander of Shanks who just woke up and forgot his main weapon at home. It´s the strongest fighter next to Shanks himself you can´t honestly believe a guy like that can´t stop Kizaru in a situation like that if he really wants to. And you still haven´t explained why the Red hair pirates refused to attack the admirals even after seeing them go after Luffy. Were they unable to do something afterwards as well or what other excuse will you make up next?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 21, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> So in other words you believe it helps Shanks´case if his officer attacks an admiral?


Ben was trying to stop Kizaru from killing someone important to Shanks and he had already given fair warning beforehand; what else would Sengoku have expected Ben to do? Remember, Marineford was in a state of complete disarray when the Red Hair Pirates showed up. They were trying to finish off the remnants of the Whitebeard Crew and their allies, Blackbeard was recklessly spamming the Gura, Mihawk and Hancock decided to leave, and on top of that they now had to deal with a fresh Yonko crew. It would have been incredibly stupid for Sengoku to order the Marines to keep fighting in that situation.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> you can´t honestly believe a guy like that can´t stop Kizaru in a situation like that if he really wants to.


I go by feats, and by feats, Ben wasn't able to stop Kizaru in time. What's also worth mentioning is that Rayleigh was able to do it while Ben couldn't.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> And you still haven´t explained why the Red hair pirates refused to attack the admirals even after seeing them go after Luffy.


If you're talking about Aokiji, again, we don't know where he was so I won't speculate on it. As for Kizaru, after YnM he didn't continue the assault, and said that if they survived, the Marines would just have to accept that they got lucky.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Raiden34 (Jan 21, 2018)

What was Kizaru doing when Red-hair pirates arrived? Attacking Law's sub-marine. Beckman stopped Kizaru from a clean shot, and for the rest of the next chapter until he finds that little opportunity to attack Law's sub-marine from the top. And that happened after Aokiji tried to freeze the ocean, Kizaru used that little distraction and only attacked them in that moment. Until then he wanted to attack and he had a very clean shot and he gets stopped by Beckman, a Yonko FM.

Kizaru had to rely on his luck because Beckman stopped him. If not for him, he had a very clean shot and opportunity to destroy both Law, Luffy and the rest for %100. But then that percentage decreased a lot and Law, Luffy escaped thanks to him.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 21, 2018)

Kuzan wins with minimal difficulty.


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## Quipchaque (Jan 21, 2018)

Jigen said:


> Ben was trying to stop Kizaru from killing someone important to Shanks and he had already given fair warning beforehand; what else would Sengoku have expected Ben to do? Remember, Marineford was in a state of complete disarray when the Red Hair Pirates showed up. They were trying to finish off the remnants of the Whitebeard Crew and their allies, Blackbeard was recklessly spamming the Gura, Mihawk and Hancock decided to leave, and on top of that they now had to deal with a fresh Yonko crew. It would have been incredibly stupid for Sengoku to order the Marines to keep fighting in that situation.



That didn´t answer my question. I ask again, does it help Shanks´ intention to stop a war if one of his officers attacks an admiral or not?



> I go by feats, and by feats, Ben wasn't able to stop Kizaru in time. What's also worth mentioning is that Rayleigh was able to do it while Ben couldn't.



By feats Beckman didn´t attempt to fight or attack Kizaru at all. Or did you see Beckman firing a single shot at Kiz? I certainly didn´t. You can´t twist this into "he wasn´t able to". I know you would like to but you can´t.



> If you're talking about Aokiji, again, we don't know where he was so I won't speculate on it. As for Kizaru, after YnM he didn't continue the assault, and said that if they survived, the Marines would just have to accept that they got lucky.



That doesn´t explain why neither Shanks or Beckman raised a single finger to stop the admirals´ attacks against the submarine and why they tolerated it as if nothing happened. Do I need to remind you that Shanks could intercept Akainu before his ship even arrived at Marineford? Yet he chose to do nothing against Aokiji or Kizaru for obvious reasons. but oh wait how could I forget... they are just unable to touch the mighty admirals. Nothing to read between the lines there at all.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 21, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That didn´t answer my question. I ask again, does it help Shanks´ intention to stop a war if one of his officers attacks an admiral or not?


As I already explained, Ben preventing Kizaru from killing Luffy wouldn't have jeopardized Shanks's attempts to stop the war, as they had made it clear they were willing to fight anyone who wanted to keep fighting (which is more or less what Kizaru did by attacking Luffy).


DiscoZoro20 said:


> By feats Beckman didn´t attempt to fight or attack Kizaru at all.



Yeah, this is going nowhere.


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## Gohara (Jan 21, 2018)

DA hawk said:


> even gohara sided with the admiral.!



I give Aokiji an edge simply because Lord Cracker is only a 3rd Yonkou Commander.  But I would still like to see reasoning as to how Aokiji wins simply through freezing.  It's not a given that the Biscuit Soldiers would be unable to break out of the ice.  Arguing that Aokiji wins through freezing is even trickier when Lord Cracker creates more Biscuit Soldiers if Aokiji is even successful in freezing any of them.

Aokiji might have to rely on his stamina to win that match up.  Avoiding being incapacitated from the Biscuit Soldiers.  But that doesn't necessarily translate to less than around high difficulty.  I agree with your points on focusing on the discussions rather than insults and that's why I ask for the above explanations, I know that both sides might not agree on many points but it would be cool to at least attempt to understand both sides' reasoning.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 21, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I give Aokiji an edge simply because Lord Cracker is only a 3rd Yonkou Commander.  But I would still like to see reasoning as to how Aokiji wins simply through freezing.  It's not a given that the Biscuit Soldiers would be unable to break out of the ice.  Arguing that Aokiji wins through freezing is even trickier when Lord Cracker creates more Biscuit Soldiers if Aokiji is even successful in freezing any of them.
> 
> Aokiji might have to rely on his stamina to win that match up.  Avoiding being incapacitated from the Biscuit Soldiers.  But that doesn't necessarily translate to less than around high difficulty.  I agree with your points on focusing on the discussions rather than insults and that's why I ask for the above explanations, I know that both sides might not agree on many points but it would be cool to at least attempt to understand both sides' reasoning.



Why would they be able to break out? 

Biscuits should be pretty easy to freeze they dont produce any heat. Maybe they can break out of ice ball which is just Aokiji throwing ice around you. 

But a actual freezing move they get turned into frozen biscuits. Aokiji can equally clash with Akainu for 10 days the Amount of energy Aokiji can manipulate is MASSIVE. Only counter is haki and Crackers no Shanks his ass gets frozen


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## DA hawk (Jan 21, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I give Aokiji an edge simply because Lord Cracker is only a 3rd Yonkou Commander.  But I would still like to see reasoning as to how Aokiji wins simply through freezing.  It's not a given that the Biscuit Soldiers would be unable to break out of the ice.  Arguing that Aokiji wins through freezing is even trickier when Lord Cracker creates more Biscuit Soldiers if Aokiji is even successful in freezing any of them.
> 
> Aokiji might have to rely on his stamina to win that match up.  Avoiding being incapacitated from the Biscuit Soldiers.  But that doesn't necessarily translate to less than around high difficulty.  I agree with your points on focusing on the discussions rather than insults and that's why I ask for the above explanations, I know that both sides might not agree on many points but it would be cool to at least attempt to understand both sides' reasoning.


You rate the admirals the lowest around here, and you siding with aokigi tells it all. The winner here is just a given, and simple power scaling is more than enough of a reason as u mentioned.

As for the BS breaking out of the ice, the only ones achieved that are WB and DD.
WB did so thanks to his fruit, so the BS can't relate to him which leaves DD.
Why do you think DD managed to break out of the Ice?
It's not physical strength, since Jozu and Saul the giant VA had better physical strength and couldn't break out of aokigi's ice.
Could be CoA or CoC. The latter cracker doesn't have, and the former is only restricted to cracker's real body or/and the one Biscuit soldier he's inside off, But the rest shouldn't be able to get out when Jozu and Saul couldn't.
Also the lvl of attack used should be a huge factor, and it's noticed that aokigi used a rather 'weak' freezing attack compared to what he's capable off.
Also offense wise, all aokigi has is freezing tbh, if it was easy to break out of his ice, he would be very underwhelming, and that shouldn't be the case going by his status and portrayal in the manga.

This is my reasoning for thinking this fight won't be a very difficult one for aokigi.


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 21, 2018)

The biscuits have absolutely no counter measure for the ice. Characters that have escaped the ice usually had a DF help them.



DA hawk said:


> Also offense wise, all aokigi has is freezing tbh, if it was easy to break out of his ice, he would be very underwhelming, and that shouldn't be the case going by his status and portrayal in the manga.
> 
> =



Aokiji tried to stab WB to death with a bunch of ice spears, and he threw them at WB too. He can make all kinds of weapons with his ice


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## Gohara (Jan 21, 2018)

This responds to all 3 of you:

We don't know what exact reason Doflamingo breaks out of the ice.  It could be because of physical strength, Haki, Devil Fruit skills, etc..  But Lord Cracker is arguably around Doflamingo's level so there's a good possibility that Lord Cracker can do what Doflamingo does to break out of the ice.  King's Haki might be the only exception.  But if we don't know how Doflamingo does it how can it be a given that the Biscuit Soldiers can't do it?  Plus why couldn't we simply say that Aokiji freezes and wins match ups against characters like Kizaru?  Jozu is physically superior to Kizaru.  We don't know that Kizaru can use King's Haki.

But assuming that Aokiji can successfully freeze the Biscuit Soldiers, doesn't it simply become a match up of stamina?  Since Lord Cracker can regenerate the Biscuit Soldiers?  Not that Aokiji wouldn't win a match up of stamina but if Lord Cracker regenerates Biscuit Soldiers for a lot of days before expending all of his character's energy that seems like more than around mid difficulty, no?  Especially if Lord Cracker wounds Aokiji somewhat?

Also I think that Lord Cracker actually can use Armanent Haki on any of his Biscuit Soldiers as it's been stated that characters can their Haki on weapons.

As for what technique Aokiji uses, who knows?  We don't really know how they work and to what degree of characters each technique works on.  I don't think that Aokiji would be relatively underwhelming though if his techniques don't automatically successfully freeze top Yonkou Commander level characters.  Aokiji seems to be a pretty skilled all around character.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 22, 2018)

Gohara said:


> This responds to all 3 of you:
> 
> We don't know what exact reason Doflamingo breaks out of the ice.  It could be because of physical strength, Haki, Devil Fruit skills, etc..  But Lord Cracker is arguably around Doflamingo's level so there's a good possibility that Lord Cracker can do what Doflamingo does to break out of the ice.  King's Haki might be the only exception.  But if we don't know how Doflamingo does it how can it be a given that the Biscuit Soldiers can't do it?  Plus why couldn't we simply say that Aokiji freezes and wins match ups against characters like Kizaru?  Jozu is physically superior to Kizaru.  We don't know that Kizaru can use King's Haki.
> 
> ...


Aokiji has Island level AOE. 

He can feeeze a army of crackers biscuits at once if he wants to IMO.


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## Quipchaque (Jan 22, 2018)

Jigen said:


> As I already explained, Ben preventing Kizaru from killing Luffy wouldn't have jeopardized Shanks's attempts to stop the war, as they had made it clear they were willing to fight anyone who wanted to keep fighting (which is more or less what Kizaru did by attacking Luffy).



And as I already explained it doesn´t answer my question. You try to circumvent it with all kinds of reasons that I didn´t ask for. Does it help Shanks´ intention or not? A yes or no is all it takes. Also you still didn´t answer why neither Shanks Or Beckman responded to their attacks afterwards despite you yourself admitting just now that Kizaru and Aokiji were practically provoking it. You have yet to show me a single fighting panel to make a sufficient claim that the red-hair pirates would be unable to do anything.



> Yeah, this is going nowhere.



Of course it is going nowhere because as always you try to exaggerate every little bit that might make a first mate look bad. Answer me this. If you truly believe Beckman would have been unable to stop Kizaru in that instance. Aren´t you basically saying that Kizaru can no-diff Shanks´ first mate because he is simply too fast for Beckman to react? That´s pretty much what this comes down to. If you disagree with that conclusion then you have to admit that Beckman did not attempt to intercept Kizaru at all.


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 22, 2018)

Gohara said:


> This responds to all 3 of you:
> 
> We don't know what exact reason Doflamingo breaks out of the ice.  It could be because of physical strength, Haki, Devil Fruit skills, etc..  But Lord Cracker is arguably around Doflamingo's level so there's a good possibility that Lord Cracker can do what Doflamingo does to break out of the ice.  King's Haki might be the only exception.  But if we don't know how Doflamingo does it how can it be a given that the Biscuit Soldiers can't do it?  Plus why couldn't we simply say that Aokiji freezes and wins match ups against characters like Kizaru?  Jozu is physically superior to Kizaru.  We don't know that Kizaru can use King's Haki.
> 
> ...



He can only use haki on a biscuit he is inside of. The entire fight with Luffy he failed to once give haki to a biscuit that he wasn't touching. It would've helped him greatly during those 11 hours, but he never did it once. It's safe for us to assume Cracker does not have this ability.

As for the stamina matchup, I don't think so. Cracker has to be free and able to clap his hands to create biscuits. Aokiji won't miss that, and unlike Luffy, he has an assortment of long range attacks to instantly freeze biscuits and carve a path to Cracker. 

Cracker is stronger than Doflamingo, at least in terms of Haki, but the individual soldiers don't even come close, and Aokiji's freeze stopped Doflamingo in an instant.


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## Gohara (Jan 22, 2018)

@ Law and Doflamingo.

I don't think that it was stated and/or implied that Lord Cracker can't imbue all of the Biscuit Soldiers with Haki.  I also doubt that's the case because Luffy was having issues with the Armanent Haki.  If Luffy could simply focus on the other Biscuit Soldiers how were they consistently defending against Luffy?  Plus it's been stated that characters can imbue any of their weapons with Haki.  Why would that apply to one Biscuit Soldier but not any of the other ones?

But what's preventing Lord Cracker from creating more with his claps?  Aokiji freezing the Biscuit Soldiers doesn't prevent Lord Cracker from clapping his hands.  And even if we assume that Aokiji freezes the initial set Lord Cracker can create more, and that process will repeat.

Of course that assumes that the freezing is successful to begin with.


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 22, 2018)

Gohara said:


> @ Law and Doflamingo.
> 
> I don't think that it was stated and/or implied that Lord Cracker can't imbue all of the Biscuit Soldiers with Haki.  I also doubt that's the case because Luffy was having issues with the Armanent Haki.  If Luffy could simply focus on the other Biscuit Soldiers how were they consistently defending against Luffy?  Plus it's been stated that characters can imbue any of their weapons with Haki.  Why would that apply to one Biscuit Soldier but not any of the other ones?
> 
> ...



It would apply to one biscuit soldier because that was the one he was inside of. He didn't use haki on any of his biscuits while he was fighting Luffy, that's why Luffy was able to eat them when they got wet. Cracker's haki is so strong that Luffy needed G4 to penetrate it, so if Cracker used haki on his soldiers, even wet, Luffy shouldn't be able to eat them. Luffy had a hard time against the regular soldiers because without water they are extremely hard, and Luffy only has brawler tactics. As soon as he could regain enough energy to get through a group or so, Cracker could just easily create more.

If he could imbue his soldiers with Haki, it would deplete his energy quickly. Haki is shown to be finite, with most characters only using CoA to block or attack. That explains why G4 is so taxing. I'll agree with you for once, and say that if Cracker can use haki on his biscuits, they should be able to escape Ice Age. Unfortunately logia powers don't seem to have any limits, so Aokiji wins when Cracker is out of Haki

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kai (Jan 23, 2018)

Aokiji mid diffs. Only a first commander (first mate) gives high diff or even wins against Admiral imo.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (Jan 23, 2018)

Isn't part of the reason that Luffy had difficulty eating any of the Biscuit Soldiers initially because of Haki?  Luffy shouldn't have any issues eating Biscuits.  But because of Lord Cracker's Armanent Haki they are tricky to eat.  Unless it's stated that Lord Cracker can't use Haki on more than one Biscuit Soldier there are more reasons to think that he can than that he can't.  Not seeing it in practice doesn't say a lot because most of that match up is off screen.

I agree that Aokiji winning because of superior stamina seems reasonable enough.  We don't yet know the degree of stamina of most top Yonkou Commander level characters.  But so far the Admirals have superior stamina feats.  So there's nothing particularly unreasonable about Aokiji winning because of superior stamina in my opinion.


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## Raiden34 (Jan 23, 2018)

They have superior stamina based on what? 10 days fighting?

Rookie Ace and Jinbe fought for 5 days, and they could go even more considering that Ace got up and created a fire wall to protect his crew against Whitebeard.

Jack and Nekomamushi / Inurashi fought for 5 days, and they could go even more considering that they were completely fine until Jack used poison gas to gain the upper hand against them and they even resisted the tortures of Jack and didn't speak of the information that Jack seeks.

Anyone who has superhuman stats can keep fighting days long on this series, it's not really a proof to say they have superior stamina.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 23, 2018)

Aokiji mid-diffs.
Better Haki, more AoE and should have the edge in physical stats

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (Jan 23, 2018)

True but that's why I'm agreeing that it's reasonable enough of a possibility rather than it being a fact.


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## Akitō (Jan 24, 2018)

IMO based on portrayal and feats and overall story progression, Yonko >= Admirals > first-mates > second-mates > etc...

Thus, Aokiji wins with around mid-difficulty.  

The gaps between these groups are fairly small and the stronger members of one group might beat the weaker members of a stronger group, but Aokiji is too far removed from Cracker for that to be the case here.


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## barreltheif (Jan 24, 2018)

Very low diff. Someone like Jack or Ace or Vista or whoever would do better. But Aokiji is a horrendous matchup for Cracker. The main thing Cracker has going for him is durability, which makes no difference when your opponent is trying to freeze you.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## HawkEye13 (Jan 24, 2018)

Low diff

What biscuits is gonna do to a guy that freezes Tsunamis and Oceans beyond the horizon without breaking a sweat?


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## Shrike (Jan 24, 2018)

Low diff.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 24, 2018)

why does this stomp have 5 pages ?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## DoctorLaw (Jan 24, 2018)

Weiss said:


> why does this stomp have 5 pages ?



The Church of First Mate >= Admiral has been increasing in number as their beliefs become more radical.

They've already speculated Fujitora can't even use Haki

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Raiden34 (Jan 25, 2018)

Last time I checked Aokiji stomped Saul, pre-TS Luffy and Buggy. Never seen something like beating a +800 B opponent with ease.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 6


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 26, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> The Church of First Mate >= Admiral has been increasing in number as their beliefs become more radical.
> 
> They've already speculated Fujitora can't even use Haki



With Luffy about to beat Katakuri soon they're getting desperate and resorting to _even shittier _arguments to cling on to their fantasy tier levels that they've spent years advocating for online.  


Just check out some of the silly points DiscoZoro attempted to use against me in the Fujitora vs BM thread, though none of them were as bad as thinking that Fujitora doesn't even have haki. 


Though as funny as it is to see their desperation, tbh it's more pathetic and cringeworthy at this stage and reflective of some of the poisonous & corrosive elements of online culture, where people are prepared to stubbornly reject clear facts simply to uphold their partisan narratives & biases.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## MO (Jan 26, 2018)

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to say fuji doesn't have haki.

but it should still be a midd diff.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 1, 2018)

I don't see how a biscuit soldier couldn't just parry Aokiji attacks and at best one be destroyed and recreated, meanwhile they'll push into cqc to take him out cuz he's weak up close. The busoshoku will objectively work.

I mean biscuit soldiers are essentially a bunch of gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy going in with no regard for their own safety in strategic phalanx formation, taking hits to dish them out. 

Aokiji logically only has a chance if he can land a hit on the true Cracker.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Sabco (Feb 2, 2018)

Cracker gets raped

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 2, 2018)

sabco said:


> Cracker gets raped


Nice fanfiction.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Sabco (Feb 2, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Nice fanfiction.


thanks

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 3, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> I don't see how a biscuit soldier couldn't just parry Aokiji attacks and at best one be destroyed and recreated, meanwhile they'll push into cqc to take him out cuz he's weak up close. The busoshoku will objectively work.
> 
> I mean biscuit soldiers are essentially a bunch of gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy going in with no regard for their own safety in strategic phalanx formation, taking hits to dish them out.
> 
> Aokiji logically only has a chance if he can land a hit on the true Cracker.



I can't tell if you're trolling or not.

He can freeze everything from where he is standing for dozens of miles in an instant, including top tiers. Why he didn't spam this during the war is probably for plot purposes, but he has been shown repeatedly using this ability, with people only escaping due to haki, a DF, or time. The clones don't have any of those luxuries, and if they can all use haki as Gohara speculated, they still only have a finite amount to use to escape with, and this will quickly drain Cracker's reserves if he keeps using it to get his clones out of Ice Age, which we can safely assume he can use repeatedly (Fuji can spam mets, Akainu coats himself in mega Lava constantly).

Cracker's clones are useless against Aokiji.

Cracker logically only has a chance if he can land a couple hundred hits against Aokiji in a straight up fight in his strongest clone coated in haki. Lining up clones to be frozen is a waste of his efforts.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 3, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> I can't tell if you're trolling or not.
> 
> He can freeze everything from where he is standing for dozens of miles in an instant, including top tiers. Why he didn't spam this during the war is probably for plot purposes, but he has been shown repeatedly using this ability, with people only escaping due to haki, a DF, or time. The clones don't have any of those luxuries, and if they can all use haki as Gohara speculated, they still only have a finite amount to use to escape with, and this will quickly drain Cracker's reserves if he keeps using it to get his clones out of Ice Age, which we can safely assume he can use repeatedly (Fuji can spam mets, Akainu coats himself in mega Lava constantly).
> 
> ...


Aokiji froze water dozens of miles in an instant. Changing water to ice is just about increasing the temperature, Aokiji didn't freeze everything for miles, he simply super froze established energy (water) that already existed to change it's state.

Oven did a similar thing through heat, we shouldn't suddenly give him that scale of power, he just heated it like aokiji forze his.

Aokiji's aoe is on the level of Ace's as we saw at marineford.

Anyway Aokiji does aoe ice and the biscuit soldiers stand up against it and parry/push back.

Aokiji can win this but Cracker isn't going to fold and Cracker is a bad match up I'd argue.

Biscuit soldiers can parry g3 and don't have to worry about their joints being frozen or too cold, they are more than strong enough to deal with Ace leveled aoe attacks.

In order to freeze someone, Aokiji has to get close range to them, which risks his own hide. Aokiji froze Doflamingo by connecting the small icicle of ice to him that shot out of his hand.
He froze Jozu by physically touching him when he didn't have any defense up.

I don't see how Aokiji doesn't just get overwhelmed, he's weakest in cqc and there are too many powerful g3 characters going at him along with the strongest busoshoku haki character Luffy has faced.

Aokiji throws giant attacks, they stop it, then Cracker goes it to attack, maybe with phalanx people hurting Aokiji as well, I can see Aokiji realistically getting the better of the real Cracker and maybe winning that way (albeit Cracker could probably escape a straight ice attack if he isn't outright blindsided like Jozu was, especially with his buso, along with being able to pay Aokiji back with a sword attack of his own) but I can easily see Cracker being too fast and his biscuit soldiers stopping all the nukes aokiji tries to throw his way.

Someone like Akainu or Kizaru would have a much easier time against Cracker than Aokiji would. (albeit it still wouldn't be a stomp)

No, a bunch of g3 Luffy leveled clones who can be infinitely created aren't useless against Aokiji.

You don't understand Aokiji or Cracker's power, so this is kind of pointless. They wouldn't be lined up, Aokiji can't just raise his hand and someone 20 yards away suddenly freezes unless they are in water. Cracker's biscuit soldiers aren't weak.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## oiety (Feb 4, 2018)

Aokiji low diffs.

He freezes cracker and his army, eventually.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 5, 2018)

oiety said:


> Aokiji low diffs.
> 
> He freezes cracker and his army, eventually.


Or you know, buso thrust to Aokiji's neck cuz Aokiji's cqc is weak shit and he's slow.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## oiety (Feb 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Or you know, buso thrust to Aokiji's neck cuz Aokiji's cqc is weak shit and he's slow.



Or, you know

Aokiji low diffs.

He freezes cracker and his army, eventually.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Or you know, buso thrust to Aokiji's neck cuz Aokiji's cqc is weak shit and he's slow.


Yes, and Perospero is > Katakuri. Because you say so.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 5, 2018)

oiety said:


> Or, you know
> 
> Aokiji low diffs.
> 
> He freezes cracker and his army, eventually.


That's a pretty bad argument, it's like saying "oh I just stab the guy"
Yes if you could get a free stab on a special forces martial arts master, you'd be well off in the fight, but you'd have to get from point a to point b, which would be next to impossible.

If the fight starts with Aokiji already having frozen him and his biscuit soldiers, then he wins, but that's like saying Cracker wins if he cut off Aokiji's head from the start. (real head, not intangibility related)

Individual biscuit soldiers can repel g3 named attacks, meaning he tries an aoe attack when they aren't all in the water and ultimately a single biscuit soldier or two can just clash equally while the rest go around and nail him alongside the real one.

Aokiji's aoe is only Ace/yami blackbeard leveled when water isn't related and he has to physically get close to things to flash freeze them and he's inferior cqc to everyone in the fight (including individual biscuit soldiers)

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 5, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Yes, and Perospero is > Katakuri. Because you say so.


He's tanked more, even with his weakness being included (fire/explosion)
He's got more devil fruit mastery
He's got more aoe scale by far
He's shown off an attack that people thought Big Mom did and where they praised her for it with stuff like "Finally yonkou are showing what they got"
etc

Perospero isn't currently stalemating base Luffy.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## oiety (Feb 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> That's a pretty bad argument, it's like saying "oh I just stab the guy"
> Yes if you could get a free stab on a special forces martial arts master, you'd be well off in the fight, but you'd have to get from point a to point b, which would be next to impossible.
> 
> If the fight starts with Aokiji already having frozen him and his biscuit soldiers, then he wins, but that's like saying Cracker wins if he cut off Aokiji's head from the start. (real head, not intangibility related)
> ...



Admirals have better portrayal than Third Commanders. This is less like a random chump attacking a martial artist, and more like a featherweight going for a heavyweight.

I also don't believe Cracker could do that, considering Aokiji managed to avoid getting impaled by Whitebeard.

Lastly, blunt force=/=freezing, and I believe he could freeze them as easily as he froze the tsunami.

In conclusion,

Aokiji Low diffs.
He freezes cracker and his army, eventually.


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## Dunno (Feb 5, 2018)

oiety said:


> Admirals have better portrayal than Third Commanders. This is less like a random chump attacking a martial artist, and *more like a featherweight going for a heavyweight*.
> 
> I also don't believe Cracker could do that, considering Aokiji managed to avoid getting impaled by Whitebeard.
> 
> ...


More like a lightweight going for a fat 10 year old kid tbh.

Reactions: Like 1


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## oiety (Feb 5, 2018)

Dunno said:


> More like a lightweight going for a fat 10 year old kid tbh.



I remain surprised that everyone in Totland isn't fat, really. Biscuits, Mochi, Candy, Smoothies, etc, their daily intake must be like 10,000 cals.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 5, 2018)

oiety said:


> Admirals have better portrayal than Third Commanders. This is less like a random chump attacking a martial artist, and more like a featherweight going for a heavyweight.
> 
> I also don't believe Cracker could do that, considering Aokiji managed to avoid getting impaled by Whitebeard.
> 
> ...


Not enough where a bad match up wouldn't prove bad for an admiral fighting someone like Cracker.

If Akainu or Kizaru were here, I'd give them maybe mid diff in this fight (depending on if Cracker is where you say he is, honestly he might be stronger than katakuri considering no one even knew that the real him was inside and thought he was the one clone)

However Aokiji has been shown time and time again to be particularly incapable of battling on the level of Kizaru and Akainu while in cqc, clashing with Ace's fire aoe equally only, etc etc.

Unless Aokiji gets some impressive haki showings of his own, right now he's inferior to Kizaru and Akainu but has increased lethality when he does get ahold of an admiral,  great advantage around water, and maybe something hidden.  Cracker is a bad match up for Aokiji.

Aokiji turned water into ice, that is an infinitely easier thing than freezing someone (who he has to physically touch to do), so he'd put himself at risk of being hit only to freeze a biscuit soldier individually that can be replaced. 

Cracker (real) was able to pretty much speed blitz g4 Luffy and was able to cut him. Cracker has three assets: Speed, exceptional buso (to rival katakuri's kenbunshoku), and his tough as nails cracker soldiers.

Maybe we find out that Aokiji can like flash freeze the water in the air or something, but until then, he just doesn't have enough feats to beat this bad match up for him.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 5, 2018)

oiety said:


> I remain surprised that everyone in Totland isn't fat, really. Biscuits, Mochi, Candy, Smoothies, etc, their daily intake must be like 10,000 cals.


You lose a lot of calories running around on guard duty and hopping superhuman heights and getting into fights, etc.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 5, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Yes, and Perospero is > Katakuri. Because you say so.


Because of larger aoe
Better durability feats
Similar cqc 
Better devil fruit mastery
Portrayal both through action and paneling
etc


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