# Luffy+Sanji vs Zoro+Law



## Bernkastel (Aug 16, 2015)

Location : Dressrosa

Knowledge : Full on both sides.

Mindset : Bloodlusted

Who wins?

Bonus scenario : how does it go w/o knowledge?


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## RileyD (Aug 16, 2015)

G4 fodderizes Law and Zoro from what we've seen, not on the same level at all.
G2 Luffy+ Sanji vs Law and Zoro is closer but Luffy's team wins (with high not extreme) diff.


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## barreltheif (Aug 16, 2015)

If Luffy opens with G4, then he and Sanji will probably win. He can take out one of the swordsmen, and Sanji can definitely protect him from the other for 10 minutes. Zoro+Law's best hope is to try to teleport around and hide until G4 ends.




RileyD said:


> G2 Luffy+ Sanji vs Law and Zoro is closer but Luffy's team wins (with high not extreme) diff.




What manga are you reading? Law+Zoro would mid-high diff G2 Luffy+Sanji.


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## convict (Aug 16, 2015)

Agreed that since it is bloodlusted Luffy and Sanji have the advantage here. An instant onslaught of G4 is too much. In character I would favor the other team. Also, yes there is no way G2 Luffy and Sanji can hope to beat Law and Zoro.


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## RileyD (Aug 16, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> If Luffy opens with G4, then he and Sanji will probably win. He can take out one of the swordsmen, and Sanji can definitely protect him from the other for 10 minutes. Zoro+Law's best hope is to try to teleport around and hide until G4 ends.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fact that g4 is probably, suggests you are either a law or Zoro wanker, neither of them are anywhere near Doflamingo, who in not anywhere near g4 himself, they are fodder to g4, g4 is for fighting with YONKOU and ADMIRAL level opponents.

What manga are *you* reading?

Doflamingos performance against Law was completely one sided wheras Luffy could tag him, avoid his HIGH END awakened attacks in g2, was faster than Doflamingo, and was never defeated by him to the point of incapacity like Law was several times. 

Luffy>Law>Zoro>Sanji considering Luffy is the strongest one here and none of the other characters can reliably deal with him his team win and that is in g2/g3. 

For any weird hidden trump cards Zoro has, Luffy has as well, it is shounen logic, there is not going to be an arc where the right hand man gets some massive power up without there being an answer from the main character in his fight, otherwise it would be anti climactic, and the whole Rayleigh flashback has all but confirmed this saying g4 was too stressful and that he should show him something different.


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## God Movement (Aug 16, 2015)

G4 is the deciding factor. And Zoro won't be stomping Sanji. So G4 beats the snot out of Law then Luffy goes to help Sanji finish off Zolo.


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## Grimm6Jack (Aug 16, 2015)

Sanji stalls Zoro... You can wank Zoro all you want but the portrayal still exists between them. They aren't that far appart.
G2 Luffy has considerably better feats than Law and he was already considerably stronger than any of the Straw Hats in G2.

Luffy's team wins with mid/high-diff. If Luffy decides to use G4 then he solos with low-diff.


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## Amol (Aug 16, 2015)

Bloodshed Luffy opens with G4 or immediately red hawks someone.
To beat Sanji , Zoro will need High diff.
Sanji definitely can stall and play hide and seek with Zoro for long time.
He is the smarter one out of two after all.
Luffy pummels other in mean while.
Chances are that Luffy can manage to hit both of opponents in G4.
I mean Luffy launched DD few kilometers in single punch.
Say Sanji keeps Zoro busy.
Luffy launches law across to country.
Then Luffy instead of pursuing Law lands one or two hit on Zoro who would have been already in pressure by Sanji.
What I am trying to say that Luffy can create conditions enough for Sanji to beat Zoro.
This is just one strategy though.
Luffy/Sanji wins with High diff.
Edit : Alright, this is gotten enough idiotic now.
If someone is good enough to * force * Luffy to use G4 then it is already a High diff fight .
There is no low diff bullshit with G4.
G4 strains Luffy greatly, remember?
To the point of full body paralysis.
Where the hell low(means easy) comes in that?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2015)

Law is a op team mate.

Zoro prepares ashura,  Sanji attacks law, he switches himself  with zoro. Sanji then gets rekt by running foot first into 9 blades.

Rince and repeat with luffy. He has to start with g4 to have any chance.

Also topkek at  G2 Luffy having better feats then Law he doesn't.


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## MYJC (Aug 16, 2015)

You would have to restrict G4 for this to even be close...otherwise it's clobberin' time. Only reach chance Zoro/Law would have in this scenario is to run for dear life and hope they can evade Luffy until G4 wears off. 

Restrict G4 and Luffy/Sanji probably end up getting haxxed by Law at some point.


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## Kaiser (Aug 16, 2015)

While G4 Luffy is stronger than anyone here, the drawbacks are terrible so i won't say it would actually be a good idea for Luffy to go in gear4 state straight on at the beginning when he still needs to close distances to land attacks and Law can create mountain size rooms where he can teleport himself or his team member at will to avoid any unnecessary danger and take advantage to finish Luffy off when it will run out. Law's abilities will actually be a great game changer here despite Luffy's superiority in G4 state and a shamble+Ashura attack could also be deadly. Outside of g4 too, i favor team2. I see team2 winning more times than not due to Law's abilities and battle tactics, as well as g4 drawbacks


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## yantos (Aug 16, 2015)

Grimm said:


> Sanji stalls Zoro... You can wank Zoro all you want but the portrayal still exists between them. They aren't that far appart.
> *G2 Luffy has considerably better feats than Law and he was already considerably stronger than any of the Straw Hats in G2.*
> 
> Luffy's team wins with mid/high-diff. If Luffy decides to use G4 then he solos with low-diff.



talks about zoro wank then posts  this shit in the next line


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## barreltheif (Aug 16, 2015)

> Doflamingos performance against Law was completely one sided wheras Luffy could tag him, avoid his HIGH END awakened attacks in g2, was faster than Doflamingo, and was never defeated by him to the point of incapacity like Law was several times.




Law landed multiple moves on Doflamingo that severely injured him. Doflamingo was literally laughing at G2 attacks. If it weren't for G4, Doffy could beat Luffy just with parasite.





> Luffy in g2 dodged doffy's awakening




Only if by "dodged" you mean nearly got stabbed in the face and couldn't react in time, but then was saved by Law's shambles.




RileyD said:


> The fact that g4 is probably, suggests you are either a law or Zoro wanker, neither of them are anywhere near Doflamingo, who in not anywhere near g4 himself, they are fodder to g4, g4 is for fighting with YONKOU and ADMIRAL level opponents.




You didn't read my post. G4 utterly outclasses Law and Zoro, which is why I said Luffy probably wins. Law's and Zoro's only hope is to teleport away and hide until G4 ends.




> Luffy>Law>Zoro>Sanji considering Luffy is the strongest one here and none of the other characters can reliably deal with him his team win




Yes.




> and that is in g2/g3.









> For any weird hidden trump cards Zoro has, Luffy has as well, it is shounen logic, there is not going to be an arc where the right hand man gets some massive power up without there being an answer from the main character in his fight, otherwise it would be anti climactic




Right. This is why Luffy has G4.




> and the whole Rayleigh flashback has all but confirmed this saying g4 was too stressful and that he should show him something different.




That was a mistranslation. Luffy said Kong Gun isn't strong enough. Rayleigh said that Luffy needs something else to think of something else. Then Luffy pulls out King Kong Gun. This is obviously Luffy's response to Kong Gun not being strong enough.


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## Freechoice (Aug 16, 2015)

Asura is not a sustained powerup for motherfucking fuck's sake. Saying a single attack will put Zoro at G4 Luffy level is just plain dumb.

The gap has widened between Luffy and Zoro compared to Whiskey Peak.

More akin to EL/Skypeia now.

Sanji stalls Zoro while Luffy beats Law down

or visa versa

either way whomever fights Luffy goes down before the other gets beaten


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## Imagine (Aug 16, 2015)

What's stopping Law from swapping their souls


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## Extravlad (Aug 16, 2015)

> What's stopping Law from swapping their souls


The same thing that stopped him from doing it to Doffy and Trebol.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 16, 2015)

How about the scenario where there is no knowledge for the teams? do Zoro and Law fare better ?


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## Dellinger (Aug 16, 2015)

Luffy never got blitzed by Doflamingo what the hell.


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## Imagine (Aug 16, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> The same thing that stopped him from doing it to Doffy and Trebol.



CIS.

Dofla could have parasited Luffy/Law but he didn't.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 16, 2015)

Maybe it's not meant for fighting purposes...or there are certain condition that he has to meet otherwise he could go around soul swapping top tiers


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## Imagine (Aug 16, 2015)

No it's character induced stupidity. It's common with characters who have overly hax abilities. Doflamingo only used parasite on Bellamy and Luffy (when it was already too late to matter.)

There's no implied restrictions on it.


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## Yuki (Aug 16, 2015)

Imagine said:


> No it's character induced stupidity. It's common with characters who have overly hax abilities. Doflamingo only used parasite on Bellamy and Luffy (when it was already too late to matter.)
> 
> There's no implied restrictions on it.



When he used it on Luffy during their fight it was when Luffy was down for a second, aka, not moving. 

It probably takes a couple seconds to attach the strings onto someones body.


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## Monstar6 (Aug 16, 2015)

Can someone explain this to me: 

Why when it comes to Zoro/Sanji comparison we have to relied only on portrayal (_"The M3 is still the M3"_, _"Sanji has something more to show"_, etc..) but when it comes to Zoro/Luffy we have to relied only on feat ( _"G4 is better than anything Zoro have shown"_ -even if Zoro have not shown all his got) ?


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## Bernkastel (Aug 16, 2015)

Yeah but since it's not explained properly we can't properly use it.There has to be a counter to it and it might involve haki.


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## Arkash (Aug 16, 2015)

Zoro and Law high diff.


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## Freechoice (Aug 16, 2015)

Monstar6 said:


> Can someone explain this to me:
> 
> Why when it comes to Zoro/Sanji comparison we have to relied only on portrayal (_"The M3 is still the M3"_, _"Sanji has something more to show"_, etc..) but when it comes to Zoro/Luffy we have to relied only on feat ( _"G4 is better than anything Zoro have shown"_ -even if Zoro have not shown all his got) ?



Either way, Zoro hasn't looked equal to Luffy since 1999 ala. Whiskey Peak.


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## Ruse (Aug 16, 2015)

Team Luffy takes it, G4 is the deciding factor



Monstar6 said:


> Can someone explain this to me:
> 
> Why when it comes to Zoro/Sanji comparison we have to relied only on portrayal (_"The M3 is still the M3"_, _"Sanji has something more to show"_, etc..) but when it comes to Zoro/Luffy we have to relied only on feat ( _"G4 is better than anything Zoro have shown"_ -even if Zoro have not shown all his got) ?



A lot of people don't like Zoro on here.


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## barreltheif (Aug 16, 2015)

lol said:


> Either way, Zoro hasn't looked equal to Luffy since 1999 ala. Whiskey Peak.




I think they looked pretty equal in Skypeia. But I agree that Luffy has been stronger since.
Well, of course Zoro looked way more impressive before Luffy revealed G4, but that's precisely because he hadn't revealed G4 yet.


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## Imagine (Aug 16, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> When he used it on Luffy during their fight it was when Luffy was down for a second, aka, not moving.
> 
> It probably takes a couple seconds to attach the strings onto someones body.


Jozu was steadily moving when he was parasited.


Bernkastel said:


> Yeah but since it's not explained properly we can't properly use it.There has to be a counter to it and it might involve haki.


There might be, but Luffy/Sanji don't have said counter.


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## Yuki (Aug 16, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Jozu was steadily moving when he was parasited.



I thought he was standing still looking at Corc and DD. >_>

Guess i was wrong.

Aww well there goes that theory.


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## Kaiser (Aug 16, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Jozu was steadily moving when he was parasited.


Really? How do you notice this?


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## tanman (Aug 16, 2015)

G4 Luffy >>> Law > G2/G3 Luffy > Zoro > Sanji

Most likely, G4 Luffy wrecks them unless Law has on hell of a plan to combat it.

Without G4, it's Zoro and Law's fight with extreme diff.




Juvia. said:


> I thought he was standing still looking at Corc and DD. >_>
> 
> Guess i was wrong.
> 
> Aww well there goes that theory.



No you're not wrong. I think Imagine may be thinking of the anime or something.


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## barreltheif (Aug 16, 2015)

tanman said:


> G4 Luffy >>> Law > *G2/G3 Luffy > Zoro* > Sanji
> Most likely, G4 Luffy wrecks them unless Law has on hell of a plan to combat it.
> Without G4, it's Zoro and Law's fight with extreme diff.




That is just absolute fucking nonsense, and you know it.

It is completely inconsistent with portrayal and performance. Luffy struggles against Monet. Zoro fodderizes her. G2 Luffy gets stopped by Hyouzou and acknowledges his strength. Zoro fodderizes and insults him. Luffy and Zoro fight the dragon together and Zoro is the one to kill it. Luffy struggles against Hody and loses to Caesar, while Zoro effortlessly beats all of his opponents. Luffy needs high diff to beat flathead Chinjao, and then pointy Chinjao loses to Lao G. Zoro has to lecture Luffy and give him a pep talk after he loses to Caesar Clown.
Even setting that aside, it simply doesn't make sense either. It's like thinking that Thriller Bark Zoro was weaker than base Luffy. It would just be pathetic for Zoro if he were weaker than a severely nerfed Luffy.


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## Coruscation (Aug 16, 2015)

This fight has two main decisive elements:

1. G4's power
2. Law's ability to stall

G4 makes it impossible for Law and Zoro to take this in a straight fight. G4 will knock Zoro across the freaking country, and then double-team Law. Zoro comes back, he gets knocked away again. G4 is even more powerful than Doflamingo, who didn't take long to put Law down. With Sanji's help it will be even quicker.

If Law can stall and evade defeat, his team can win. He can attempt to continuously teleport away and replace himself and Zoro with objects if they're about to get tagged. G4's immense speed and Sanji's presence is what makes this difficult. The window of time to react to G4 will always be tiny, considering even Doflamingo had a lot of trouble doing so. It's not impossible they'll take some hits without being able to react in time at all. Additionally, while they are trying to keep their attention on G4, Sanji can swoop in and land hits as well. His higher end moves should easily be able to cause serious damage. The saving grace is that G4's time limit is so short they only need to hold out for around 10 minutes or so. It's not a terribly long time, and both Law and Zoro have great endurance. If they can do that, Luffy will be in terrible shape once he exits G4, which will allow Law and Zoro to quickly double-team and mop up either him or Sanji. 

It's hard to say which side, if any, has the decisive advantage. I feel that Zoro and Law are probably closer to Luffy than Sanji is to Zoro, and so that team's overall "power level" is possibly higher, but having the strongest party on your side, especially when it's something as strong as G4, is very advantageous. Law is versatile and flexible with his ability but Zoro is not. That being said, Zoro hasn't shown his full power, and he may be stronger than I'm giving him credit for here, as I'm assuming he won't be good for much else but trying to endure hits and surviving during G4.


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## tanman (Aug 16, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> That is just absolute fucking nonsense, and you know it.
> 
> It is completely inconsistent with portrayal and performance. Luffy struggles against Monet. Zoro fodderizes her. G2 Luffy gets stopped by Hyouzou and acknowledges his strength. Zoro fodderizes and insults him. Luffy and Zoro fight the dragon together and Zoro is the one to kill it. Luffy struggles against Hody and loses to Caesar, while Zoro effortlessly beats all of his opponents. Luffy needs high diff to beat flathead Chinjao, and then pointy Chinjao loses to Lao G. Zoro has to lecture Luffy and give him a pep talk after he loses to Caesar Clown.
> Even setting that aside, it simply doesn't make sense either. It's like thinking that Thriller Bark Zoro was weaker than base Luffy. It would just be pathetic for Zoro if he were weaker than a severely nerfed Luffy.



I don't know why you've been pushing this so much all of a sudden.

It's not nonsense. I don't know it.
What you're doing is retroactively removing nuance and selectively looking at the past couple hundred chapters in order to conform to an old view of where the M3 members sit with respect to each other. Luffy is our protagonist. He has jobbed to far weaker opponents since chapter one. Monet is just another example. When we talk about Luffy, a comical character, you can't look at his worst feats. You have to look at his best. And his best feats are destroying Noah (an island sized ship) while underwater and *keeping up with Doflamingo* blow-for-blow.  Can you give me anything from Zoro that stacks up to that? To even put Zoro right behind G2/G3 Luffy, I'm giving Zoro the benefit of the doubt by thinking he's going to show better stuff against stronger opponents. 

The dragon thing is absurd. Yes. Cutting something in half has a bit more finality to it than casually punching something. Are you really going to argue that a team takeout fight indicates Zoro's superiority despite a complete paucity of feats against capable opponents.

Again with Hody and Ceaser, you're removing absolutely all nuance from the story. Luffy is a devil fruit user and he was fighting a fishman *underwater*. Can we be real for a sec? Ceaser literally had an unknown ability that could K.O. virtually anyone that doesn't know about, including the infallible Zoro.

It seems like you persist to misrepresent every fight that you discuss, and I don't know why. You seem like you're usually reasonable. Zoro "effortlessly beats all of his opponents." Sure. But that doesn't really acknowledge the fact that Zoro's opponents have been infinitely weaker. To compare underwater Hody against a devil fruit user to Hyozou on land is laughable. Ceaser and Monet were both taken out with ease. So there's no argument there. Pica was easily taken out. But so was Diamante by Kyros. Is Kyros stronger than G2/G3 Luffy? Chinjao wasn't high diffed. They swapped a couple punches and then Luffy took him out with one G3 blow and received no damage. In contrast, look at how well G2/G3 Luffy was doing against Doflamingo, someone whose speed feats, strength feats, etc. precede him.


You've got nothing. But you're free to think so. But please don't tell me about my nonsense.



EDIT - Luffy being much stronger than Zoro should in itself be unsurprising as we move towards the end of the manga.


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## Gohara (Aug 16, 2015)

It can go either way, but if I have to choose I lean towards Luffy and Sanji winning with extremely high difficulty.  The difference in power between Law and Sanji is a little greater than the difference in power between Luffy and Zoro, IMO.  Luffy and Sanji would work better together as a team, but Zoro's and Law's abilities would work better together as a team.  However, Luffy is more powerful than Law.


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## Amol (Aug 16, 2015)

Saying Luffy needed High diff to beat Chinjao is one of the most retarded thing I ever heard.
But again according to barreltheif Luffy needs G2?G3 for Kyros too. A high diff fight at that .
So it is not like this is his first attempt at Luffy downplaying


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2015)

Zoro >G2 luffy that's painfully clear.


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## NO (Aug 16, 2015)

Nobody in this thread has any proof that G4 Luffy is decisively superior to Zoro. The least they could do is give Zoro the benefit of the doubt, considering he's been low/mid-diffing his opponents since the TS and hasn't been 100% serious at any point in time, but they won't even give him that.

The Zoro downplay is unreal and goes to show why nobody should take this section seriously.


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## Yuki (Aug 16, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


> Nobody in this thread has any proof that G4 Luffy is decisively superior to Zoro. The least they could do is give Zoro the benefit of the doubt, considering he's been low/mid-diffing his opponents since the TS and hasn't been 100% serious at any point in time, but they won't even give him that.
> 
> The Zoro downplay is unreal and goes to show why nobody should take this section seriously.



Yes we do...

You just decide to ignore it.

LOL! The Zorotards are the REASON no one can take this section seriously.


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## Dellinger (Aug 16, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Zoro >G2 luffy that's painfully clear.



Luffy >> Zoro that's painfully clear.

Barrels arguments are absurd.He talking about Monet when Luffy clearly had no intention to fight her.He downplays Chinjao while Chinjao is superior to the seats.He only lost to Lao G because he wasn't in a good shape.Luffy was fighting against Hody underwater in the worst possible conditions.Caesar's ability is OP yet when Luffy got serious he wrecked him in a couple of blows.


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## NO (Aug 16, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Yes we do...
> 
> You just decide to ignore it.
> 
> LOL! The Zorotards are the REASON no one can take this section seriously.



Topkek, you've been reading the manga for a year and you like trolling people who've been way in this longer than you. I'm a very rational guy. Give me proof that Zoro is weaker than any version of post-TS Luffy. I was right about Luffy being as strong as Doflamingo, if not stronger, when everyone said he wasn't, I'm right about this. This is post-TS Zoro, the New World. This is the strength Luffy's top pirates should be playing at, especially when one of those pirates was trained by the WSS and hasn't broken a sweat.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2015)

Plz.

Even if G2 Luffy had better feats then Zoro which he doesn't. That means little when zoro has not only has better portryal and hype, unlike luffy who has been spamming the shit out of G2\G3 for the last 4 years zoro has been fucking around.

Where is Ashura?

Where is Zoro's hell memories?

Where is zoro's g4?

I haven't seen it. Only powerful new move worth mentioning is great dragon movement and he did not even use that at full power. Where is the new shit zoro invented  while training with the pinnacle of swordsmenship for 2 years. Luffy was focusing on haki but and training with a swordsmen (rayleigh) and he still had time to come up with many new powerful techniques not to mention push his devil fruit to n?w heights with g4. 


And I'm suppose to believe G2 Luffy>>Zoro.  

No way in hell. Only way that makes any sense is if Zoro unlike everyone else in the crew learned basically  shit from his master. So all zoro did in the time skip is increase his physical stats and learn haki , is that  the type of position I'm suppose to have on zoro. Oda put  zoro with mihawk just to learn haki and increase his physical stats .

Zoro down players get ready to cry in Wano cause zoro is gonna fuck stuff up.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 16, 2015)

Luffy in G4 wrecked DD all around DR...there's your proof that Zoro is weaker unless you think Zoro is stronger than DD


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## NO (Aug 16, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Luffy in G4 wrecked DD all around DR...there's your proof that Zoro is weaker unless you think Zoro is stronger than DD


That's not proof you fool. That's you with the predisposition "Zoro should always be weaker than Doflamingo." It's a baseless predisposition and should be thrown in the trash because Zoro hasn't shown his post-TS Asura, any new strong post-TS moves (all of his strong moves so far has been improved versions of his pre-TS moves ), and hasn't even shown the extent of his CoA specialization. Zoro's journey in the NW so far has been a joke.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Luffy in G4 wrecked DD all around DR...there's your proof that Zoro is weaker unless you think Zoro is stronger than DD



No one thinks zoro>G4 luffy


2 guys think Zoro can outlast G4 luffy, but thats not the same as being outright stronger.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 16, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


> That's not proof you fool. That's you with the predisposition "Zoro should always be weaker than Doflamingo." It's a baseless predisposition and should be thrown in the trash because Zoro hasn't shown his post-TS Asura, any new strong post-TS moves (all of his strong moves so far has been improved versions of his pre-TS moves ), and hasn't even shown the extent of his CoA specialization. Zoro's journey in the NW so far has been a joke.



So what Zoro has done to put him above DD? beating Pica? 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> No one thinks zoro>G4 luffy
> 
> 
> 2 guys think Zoro can outlast G4 luffy, but thats not the same as being outright stronger.



JayJay asked proof that Zoro is weaker than any post-ts version of Luffy


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## NO (Aug 16, 2015)

For the record, people should read my posts very clearly as I'm careful with my word choice. 

Me saying "you don't have proof that G4 Luffy is stronger than Zoro" _*does not mean*_ Zoro is stronger or as strong as G4 Luffy.

The proof to say that Zoro is decisively weaker than G4 Luffy _*does not exist*_.

Wait until Zoro actually goes 100% and pulls out all moves before you make a claim like that. Until then, give him the benefit of the doubt. His portrayal is insane, his 2 year training with the WSS is hype, and nothing has pushed Zoro to the brink so far.

My opinion is fact-derived and absolutely rational.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 16, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


> For the record, people should read my posts very clearly as I'm careful with my word choice.
> 
> Me saying "you don't have proof that G4 Luffy is stronger than Zoro" _*does not mean*_ Zoro is stronger or as strong as G4 Luffy.
> 
> ...



There's no reason for Zoro to go all out to say that Luffy overall is stronger.He is the captain and Zoro the 1st mate..close ? yes ofc,stronger? no there's no reason for that.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2015)

Yep luffy is the captain must be stronger at all times herp derp, if not the entire crew will make zoro captain or Zoro might even Leave. Can't have that.

It's like one piece and dragon Ball z are the only anime people know of.


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## Yuki (Aug 16, 2015)

DD. What feats does Zoro have to put him above G2/3 Luffy?

Beating Pica? Pretty sure G2/3 Luffy could do that pretty damn well.

He has none. He has been fighting mid tiers this entire time. 

Meanwhile Luffy beat one of the strongest high tiers in a the manga. Finishing it off with an attack that was WAY to overkill.

Also, JJ, you know shit. I've been watching one piece since the 90s and was posting in this section before you even joined. I just take breaks.


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## Extravlad (Aug 16, 2015)

> Beating Pica? Pretty sure G2/G3 Luffy could do that pretty damn well.


G2/G3 Luffy took a while to defeat the likes of Caesar and Hody


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> DD. What feats does Zoro have to put him above G2/3 Luffy?
> 
> Beating Pica? Pretty sure G2/3 Luffy could do that pretty damn well.
> 
> ...



Look at everyone they fought and compare them oda is not being tricky with this shit.

Luffy's strongest moves(non g4) attack power wise are to slow to do anything to Zoro but even then Zoro easily compares to luffy In that regard. And unlike luffy who has shown his top G3 moves zoro has not even shown ashura yet which was basically his G3  equivalent preskip.

Only thing G2 Luffy got on zoro is speed. Which is nice but when all zoro needs is one good hit to make luffy face plant, speed advantage is not so significant espicially when luffy can't hurt zoro without getting into his attack range anyway since he is a brawler.

Like what is luffy going to do when zoro takes out the big guns? Luffy trys to hit him with red hawk a powerful move indeed but then Zoro counters with a haki Lion song.  So what happens? Zoro gets third degree burns luffy loses his hand.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 16, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> G2/G3 Luffy took a while to defeat the likes of Caesar and Hody



Same could be said for Zoro and Pica


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## Yuki (Aug 16, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Look at everyone they fought and compare them oda is not being tricky with this shit.
> 
> Luffy's strongest moves(non g4) attack power wise are to slow to do anything to Zoro but even then Zoro easily compares to luffy In that regard. And unlike luffy who has shown his top G3 moves zoro has not even shown ashura yet which was basically his G3  equivalent preskip.
> 
> ...



That same logic can be said with G4 Luffy.

"What is G4 Luffy going to do what Zoro uses Asura to cut him in half"

G4 is not that much faster than G2 if at all. If Zoro can reacted and cut Luffy in G2 he can also do it to G4. Even more so as G4 is unstable while G2 is not. 

Pretty much saying Zoro > Luffy overall.

G4 is a massive game changer as it packs the power of G3 with the speed of G2. (Which btw makes G4 stronger overall, as more speed with the same power actually creates a much more powerful blow.) But it is not this thing that puts Luffy on an entirely different level. The next time it is shown, it will last much longer but also seem far far weaker. 

The thing is, Luffy does not need G2s speed to tag Zoro. G3 can do that just fine.

Or is G3 just going to be used for mid tiers now? If Zoro can dodge it the slowest out of the M3 then any one on Luffy's level or above can dodge it easily as well.

G3 IS fast enough to tag Zoro. Since G4 it's also been heavily underrated in the power department as well. A single G3 attack would badly hurt Zoro. Just like anyone else on Luffy's level. It can also oneshot people like Franky and Monster Point Chopper with a generic G3 attack. The stronger ones can likely oneshot seat level people.

So far in the new world Luffy's final attacks on his opponents have been extremely overkill. Showing that Luffy really had the power to deal with them all along whenever he wanted to. He just didn't coz plot and CIS.


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## Quuon (Aug 16, 2015)

Team Luffy wins.


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## Amol (Aug 16, 2015)

Why are you guys feeding the troll?
Ignoring is the best course of action.


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## tanman (Aug 16, 2015)

Glad to come back here and see that not everyone has subscribed to this line of thinking. I saw my rep, and I was beginning to think otherwise.


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## Coruscation (Aug 16, 2015)

You'd better be saving all of those words up good. Because you're going to have to eat so many of them you'll starve otherwise once Zoro actually gets pushed to 100% of his limit and shows 100% of his power.

One of the most highly and consistently respected characters in the entire manga is the one the OL searches for every excuse in the book to downplay the everlasting shit out of. Never mind official statements, a long and clear history, never getting a scratch on him aside from by an Admiral that he still endured and repelled or cutting a mountain without his classic trump card. We just _know_ that Zoro is absolute trash to Luffy. Because captainhood! Or something. We don't need to actually explain ourselves. Just say the buzzword.


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## NO (Aug 16, 2015)

tanman said:


> Glad to come back here and see that not everyone has subscribed to this line of thinking. I saw my rep, and I was beginning to think otherwise.




It's not a line of thinking, it's literally this:

"Zoro is significantly weaker than G4 Luffy and I can't prove it."​
and

"Zoro is a strong individual who hasn't gone all out and who should be given the benefit of the doubt instead of jumping to conclusions."​
Those are the two sides. Which is more rational? Of course, my side, because we're not discussing speculation. Because we're actually using common sense. Because we're actually not stupid enough to think Zoro's Asura is only slightly stronger than 1080 Pound Cannon or Sanzen Sekai. And we're not stupid enough to think the results of Zoro's training hasn't given him any powerful new moves (1080 Pound Cannon and Sanzen Sekai were improved versions of his pre-TS moves).



Coruscation said:


> You'd better be saving all of those words up good. Because you're going to have to eat so many of them you'll starve otherwise once Zoro actually gets pushed to 100% of his limit and shows 100% of his power.
> 
> One of the most highly and consistently respected characters in the entire manga is the one the OL searches for every excuse in the book to downplay the everlasting shit out of. Never mind official statements, a long and clear history, never getting a scratch on him aside from by an Admiral that he still endured and repelled or cutting a mountain without his classic trump card. We just _know_ that Zoro is absolute trash to Luffy. Because captainhood! Or something. We don't need to actually explain ourselves. Just say the buzzword.


Exactly.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 16, 2015)

Law ties down Luffy
Zoro rapes Sanji

or 

Zoro ties down Luffy
Law rapes Sanji


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## tanman (Aug 16, 2015)

lol
You talking to me Coru?
Make sure I know my words have been properly marinated and are ready for consumption (by private message, public thread, or carrier pigeon). I'll try to remember to do the same for you if you're wrong.


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## Coruscation (Aug 16, 2015)

It's aimed at a lot of people. They know who they are.


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## God Movement (Aug 16, 2015)

Zoro is trash to Luffy. G4 Luffy that is. Nothing will disprove that (luckily) so none of us will have to eat crow. In fact, considering what it did to Doflamingo it's much more likely the Zolowankers will have to eat crow.

But you know, I guess we'll wait to be disproven or something, whenever that will be. Shit hasn't changed since G2 was 2x stronger than Zolo and that was 300 chapters ago .


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## NO (Aug 16, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Zoro is trash to Luffy. G4 Luffy that is. Nothing will disprove that (luckily) so none of us will have to eat crow. In fact, considering what it did to Doflamingo it's much more likely the Zolowankers will have to eat crow.
> 
> But you know, I guess we'll wait to be disproven or something, whenever that will be. Shit hasn't changed since G2 was 2x stronger than Zolo and that was 300 chapters ago .


inb4 you're wrong and this actually happens


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## God Movement (Aug 16, 2015)

Just when Zoro closed the gap between himself and G2... G4 pops up out of nowhere and he's back at square one.


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## Imagine (Aug 16, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> I thought he was standing still looking at Corc and DD. >_>
> 
> Guess i was wrong.
> 
> Aww well there goes that theory.


No he was charging at Croc and was get by it.


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## Coruscation (Aug 16, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Zoro is trash to Luffy. G4 Luffy that is. Nothing will disprove that (luckily) so none of us will have to eat crow. In fact, considering what it did to Doflamingo it's much more likely the Zolowankers will have to eat crow.
> 
> But you know, I guess we'll wait to be disproven or something, whenever that will be. Shit hasn't changed since G2 was 2x stronger than Zolo and that was 300 chapters ago .



You mean the time you were disproven the following arc when Zoro took basically twice Luffy's damage and still stood. And the time you were literally pretending that official statements saying Zoro was still up there with Luffy didn't exist because they didn't fit what you wanted. Right. That time.


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## Coruscation (Aug 16, 2015)

Yes, sure. Because willpower doesn't usually correlate to strength in One Piece. Never heard of such a thing, eh? Like I said: every excuse imaginable to downplay the character Oda treats with more respect and power than almost anyone else. It's sad, really. Especially since I feel like you do the opposite with Shanks, whom people love to keep coming up with excuses for why his status and portrayal doesn't mean anything more than being your average Admiral.

Databook Yellow. I'm sure I'm not needing to tell you this at all.


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## Dellinger (Aug 16, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Yes, sure. Because willpower doesn't usually correlate to strength in One Piece. Never heard of such a thing, eh? Like I said: every excuse imaginable to downplay the character Oda treats with more respect and power than almost anyone else. It's sad, really. Especially since I feel like you do the opposite with Shanks, whom people love to keep coming up with excuses for why his status and portrayal doesn't mean anything more than being your average Admiral.
> 
> Databook Yellow. I'm sure I'm not needing to tell you this at all.



You know Corus that Luffy comes into the next arcs overshadowing Zoro's willpower feats with stuff on his own.Namely his CoC awakening and what transpired in Impel Down.


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## God Movement (Aug 16, 2015)

because the portrayal for zoro has taken a different turn ever since g2 and that really can't be ignored, he's still the first mate and vice captain but his captain has elevated himself. it was heavily implied that if luffy let lucci escape he'd annihilate every single member of the straw hats. we weren't supposed to think that zoro could fend him off. he would have been beaten, probably rather easily considering he wasn't having the easiest of times with kaku prior to asura.

now, although zoro has certainly closed the gap between himself and g2 now, to me, g4 almost seems to be a repeat to an even more absurd degree. honestly, if doflamingo didn't have awakening he probably would have been killed during the first g4 run. that's the kind of power we're dealing with and at this point I don't think law or zoro are close to that.

that was the same one that said that shit about how luffy > garp wasn't it?


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## convict (Aug 16, 2015)

^That was proven to be a mistranslation if I recall. It never stated Luffy > Garp.


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## God Movement (Aug 16, 2015)

I wasn't aware of that.


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## convict (Aug 16, 2015)

I forget the thread but it was over here in fact where that rumor was disproven. A poster provided the exact line and translated it on the spot. I believe the actual translation is:

"Garp submitted Luffy to a spartian education, so that he could become the best marine"


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> That same logic can be said with G4 Luffy.
> 
> "What is G4 Luffy going to do what Zoro uses Asura to cut him in half"
> 
> ...



G4 luffy is faster then G2, lot more mobile, a lot more durable, and packs a hell.of a lot more a punch which makes it a hell of a lot harder for zoro to counter  attack.

But in a  situation in which luffys attack actually clashes with zoros.ashura then yea he will get fucked up. But so will zoro and luffy gots the durability, and speed advantage so Zoro's going down first unless zoro gets lucky and cute his throat open.

Sorry but Ceaser fucking clown dodged a sneak attack G3 it's not fast enough to tag zoro, even if it was it's still a awful idea.  Luffy sending a giant fist at zoro is a dream. Come true, just more shit he gets to cut in half.


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## Coruscation (Aug 16, 2015)

God Movement said:


> because the portrayal for zoro has taken a different turn ever since g2 and that really can't be ignored, he's still the first mate and vice captain but his captain has elevated himself. it was heavily implied that if luffy let lucci escape he'd annihilate every single member of the straw hats. we weren't supposed to think that zoro could fend him off. he would have been beaten, probably rather easily considering he wasn't having the easiest of times with kaku prior to asura.
> 
> now, although zoro has certainly closed the gap between himself and g2 now, to me, g4 almost seems to be a repeat to an even more absurd degree. honestly, if doflamingo didn't have awakening he probably would have been killed during the first g4 run. that's the kind of power we're dealing with and at this point I don't think law or zoro are close to that.
> 
> that was the same one that said that shit about how luffy > garp wasn't it?



It never, ever, ever, ever, ever took the turn that you wishfully think it did. Thriller Bark and Databook Yellow, plus then Zoro alongside Luffy getting the only top tier trainers over the timeskip, completely DESTROYED that notion. And no. You don't get to just sit and pretend they don't exist. That is the only answer people on the Luffy >>> Zoro train ever have. You can't acknowledge it because it instantly shatters your entire view.

Then maybe, you should wait until you see Zoro's full power before starting to toss out these extreme statements. Because this screams Enies Lobby 2.0 in every way. Luffy gets to go all-out against powerful boss, reveals new form. Zoro wins with much greater ease and doesn't get pushed, he got pushed way less against Pica than Kaku too. Next arc Zoro shows what he's made of. People who got on the hype train too soon crash and burn. You actually expect me to believe you honestly consider it the most likely option that ZORO of all people is just going to look scrubby compared to Luffy when he gets pushed to 100% of his limit. The same Zoro that Oda didn't even allow to look bad against an Admiral. Who trained with MIHAWK for TWO YEARS. Who has always been one of the absolute most prominent characters in the running series for his incredible strength. His result is not going to be "meh, scrubby compared to Luffy" when he gets to finally go all-out. Believing that is to me akin to continuing to stick to your guns even when you by all sensible standards must realize it's just not going to happen.

No, it was a mistranslation. Databooks are official sources. When a databook says Zoro is up there with Luffy in power you don't go "lol no, my interpretation is more valid". You fully acknowledge that it's a very fucking strong argument combined with the long history of closeness and all the other points.


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## Dunno (Aug 16, 2015)

Don't forget that it took Luffy 20 minutes to almost take down a seriously injured Doflamingo in G4. Zoro can stall him while Law takes out Sanji. We all know that Law's fight's end quickly. If he hits, he one-shots. This will quickly turn into Law + Zoro vs Luffy which the duo will win with mid diff. Zoro and Law takes it with high diff or so overall.


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## Imagine (Aug 16, 2015)

This thread the GOAT


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 16, 2015)

Witness the power of G4 







jayjay?? said:


> inb4 you're wrong and this actually happens



top kek


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## Tenma (Aug 16, 2015)

G2 Luffy>>Zoro? Guess with G4 he should be able to low diff his entire crew.

Ignoring the fact that never mind Zoro who has been consistently said to be strong enough to be the SH's Captain even Sanji is supposed to be close to his strength.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 16, 2015)

G2 Luffy is Franky-tier at best


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## Tenma (Aug 16, 2015)

IIRC G2 Luffy was bouncing off Pacifista preskip while Sanji was caving its face in with DJ.

So much for G2>>>Zoro and Sanji


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## Imagine (Aug 16, 2015)

> G4 Luffy was bouncing off Pacifista preskip



          .


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## Freechoice (Aug 16, 2015)




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## Ekkologix (Aug 17, 2015)

*With Knowledge Law and Zoro high diff:*
Law will play it smart here and try to pull and trigger Luffy's bloodlust completely out, causing Luffy to go G4. Then Law will run and teleport around (like he did against Fujitora and Doflamingo) wasting Luffy's G4 time. It will obviously be very hard task since both Luffy and Sanji are fast and can fly to tag Law. 

Zoro on the other hand will be slowing down Sanji while Law tries to get Luffy's 100% attention. Law is a very great support. Even if Luffy forwarded his G4 toward Zoro, Law would still be able to help Zoro. It is advised that Luffy don't let his guard down against Law because Law have some paralyzing moves that he can do on Luffy such as the Injection Shot (up to some extent), Radio Knife, and even Mes.

Law and Zoro will try to minimize the overall damage they take when Luffy is on G4. After G4 is done, Luffy will drain to 5%, while Law will be 20% due to overusing his ability and G4 attacks. Zoro will be at around 50% and Sanji 70%. Zoro and Law will now go on the offensive and finish the match. 

Note: Sanji here is a bit of weak link. Though he will pack some good attacks against Zoro and Law but they will be on full defensive making Sanji *a bit* of getting on Luffy's way. Though Sanji can definitely help catching Law and Zoro.

*Without Knowledge it can go either way leaning toward Luffy and Sanji extreme diff:*
Without knowledge about Law's power and G4 this match will be a bit of tossup since both sides have OP power hidden. Depending on which power show up first. If Law can get a trick by shambling Zoro to attack Sanji with a big attack then Sanji will take great damage. Also Law will surprisingly cut the area wirelessly which can cut Sanji or Luffy if caught offguard.

Luffy showing G4 while Zoro and Law are on the offensive is also very lethal. The swordsmen can take some heavy hits before they start taking defensive measures. This can shift the way the battle turns out. I am personally leaning toward this turnout of events though Law should not be underestimated if you don't have knowledge about his powers.


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## Yuki (Aug 17, 2015)

Tenma said:


> G2 Luffy>>Zoro? Guess with G4 he should be able to low diff his entire crew.



No, no it won't.

I've already said somewhere else in this thread.

G4 Luffy is a game changer, but not a level changer. 

Just like when G2 was first shown via Blueno, it will seem like this new power up will allow Luffy to low dif Zoro and Sanji together. But in fact it didn't. 

The next time we see Luffy use G4, it will seem a hell of a lot weaker. Either stating it's slower than G2, or weaker than G3.

G4 will only seem so impressive if the other two are rendered useless like they were vs DD.

DD was to durable for G2, and too fast for G3. As such, Luffy needed something that combined the aspects of both to put DD down, and as such G4 came in and looked so much stronger than it actually is.

But if someone is not too durable for G2, or too fast for G3. Luffy will not even go into G4 because G4 would be a worse option than just staying in G2 or G3. Infact this may even be stated one time. 

"Why does Luffy not just go G4 and own this SoB, G2 is matching him blow for blow so G4 should easily end this easily." Then we will here someone else state or Luffy state him self. "No, G4 would make Luffy lose. While it is just as fast as G2, it's hard to control. If he uses that ability now, he will all most surely lose." Then Luffy ends up extreme diffing with G2 alone. Although there will of course be critics in this forum stating. "Blah blah no G4 would have owned him because it's faster than G2 and as such could avoid those oneshotting attacks even better than G2 could, here these feats prove it blah blah blah." But of course those would just be idiots. 

Ect ect.

Luffy vs Zoro is one of these battles. The fact is, Zoro would have an easier time tagging G4 Luffy than he would G2, and as Zoro is a swordsmen that no doubt has moves that can literally oneshot Luffy, i'd say it has a better chance to deal with Zoro than G4 does.

Of course i will no doubt get called an idiot for saying that, but it's my opinion so fk you.

Zoro > G2 Luffy? Then Zoro > G4 Luffy.


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## God Movement (Aug 17, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> It never, ever, ever, ever, ever took the turn that you wishfully think it did. Thriller Bark and Databook Yellow, plus then Zoro alongside Luffy getting the only top tier trainers over the timeskip, completely DESTROYED that notion. And no. You don't get to just sit and pretend they don't exist. That is the only answer people on the Luffy >>> Zoro train ever have. You can't acknowledge it because it instantly shatters your entire view.
> 
> Then maybe, you should wait until you see Zoro's full power before starting to toss out these extreme statements. Because this screams Enies Lobby 2.0 in every way. Luffy gets to go all-out against powerful boss, reveals new form. Zoro wins with much greater ease and doesn't get pushed, he got pushed way less against Pica than Kaku too. Next arc Zoro shows what he's made of. People who got on the hype train too soon crash and burn. You actually expect me to believe you honestly consider it the most likely option that ZORO of all people is just going to look scrubby compared to Luffy when he gets pushed to 100% of his limit. The same Zoro that Oda didn't even allow to look bad against an Admiral. Who trained with MIHAWK for TWO YEARS. Who has always been one of the absolute most prominent characters in the running series for his incredible strength. His result is not going to be "meh, scrubby compared to Luffy" when he gets to finally go all-out. Believing that is to me akin to continuing to stick to your guns even when you by all sensible standards must realize it's just not going to happen.
> 
> No, it was a mistranslation. Databooks are official sources. When a databook says Zoro is up there with Luffy in power you don't go "lol no, my interpretation is more valid". You fully acknowledge that it's a very fucking strong argument combined with the long history of closeness and all the other points.



The way data books works is this: they're secondary canon. You acknowledge primary canon before secondary canon. Primary canon tells us Lucci would have ruined Zoro. Secondary canon says otherwise so we.... take the view of secondary canon? No. Thriller Bark? Yes, it can be interpreted a number of ways, you've chosen the way you want to interpret it. I have chosen the way I want to interpret it and that was "Zoro is taking on his responsibilities as vice captain and is a man worthy to be the Pirate King's first mate/Zoro has monstrous endurance on par with his captain's". That's it. As far as we know Asura isn't going to make up for the huge stat deficits he has in comparison to G4. And he needs to make up for each one or he'd get blitzed.

No, we're not supposed to think that Zoro can fend off G4 when Doflamingo was barely able to. No, we're not supposed to think Luffy puts his body through this much stress and strain just for Zoro to do the same without any of the same consequences.

No, I honestly do not think Zoro will look that good in comparison to G4 even at his best. Because I don't think Law particularly would, and you know how I view the Zoro - Law strength hierarchy. Nor do I think Zoro has the tools to even fend G4 off, not when Awakening was the only thing that saved Doflamingo from getting his head knocked off. At this point I'm not even sure how Law is going to close the gap and I value his rivalry with Luffy as being significant plot-wise very highly.


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## Coruscation (Aug 17, 2015)

God Movement said:


> The way data books works is this: they're secondary canon. You acknowledge primary canon before secondary canon. Primary canon tells us Lucci would have ruined Zoro. Secondary canon says otherwise so we.... take the view of secondary canon? No. Thriller Bark? Yes, it can be interpreted a number of ways, you've chosen the way you want to interpret it. I have chosen the way I want to interpret it and that was "Zoro is taking on his responsibilities as vice captain and is a man worthy to be the Pirate King's first mate/Zoro has monstrous endurance on par with his captain's". That's it. As far as we know Asura isn't going to make up for the huge stat deficits he has in comparison to G4. And he needs to make up for each one or he'd get blitzed.
> 
> No, we're not supposed to think that Zoro can fend off G4 when Doflamingo was barely able to. No, we're not supposed to think Luffy puts his body through this much stress and strain just for Zoro to do the same without any of the same consequences.
> 
> No, I honestly do not think Zoro will look that good in comparison to G4 even at his best. Because I don't think Law particularly would, and you know how I view the Zoro - Law strength hierarchy. Nor do I think Zoro has the tools to even fend G4 off, not when Awakening was the only thing that saved Doflamingo from getting his head knocked off. At this point I'm not even sure how Law is going to close the gap and I value his rivalry with Luffy as being significant plot-wise very highly.



Horseshit. Zoro was NEVER PUSHED TO HIS LIMIT in Enies Lobby. There is absolutely no confirmation that he would get murked by Lucci.  Luffy had NO IDEA that Zoro had a power-up, remember? Yeah, conveniently ignored that part did we? You go as far as to try to push the inane bullshit that G2 was "twice as strong" as Zoro when Zoro beat Kaku very decisively once he used Ashura and we have no idea what Ashura could have actually accomplished if used for a longer time and pushed to its limt. All we know is we didn't see that limit in EL and when we did see some of Zoro's limits in TB he looked ridiculously impressive, so much so that some people thought he looked better than Luffy. It's the same bullshit now and then. You and others think you can put a hard cap on Zoro's power, based on loose speculation and "he doesn't have feats" when he isn't pushed to his limit. Or in this recent case, not even pushed at all.

Doflamingo did much better with his Awakening. Considering it goes Doffy > Luffy > Zoro obviously Zoro would have a harder time and would probably not stand up long enough to endure the assault. But he's not going to break like a twig either. Luffy will NEVER beat Zoro with ease. Ever. Oda has gone out of his way to draw parallels between them. They're the only ones who received 2 years of training from an elite top tier. It's laughably hypocritical that this forum is obsessed with ragging on "Zoro fanboys" and in the same breath would say that Luffy annihilates Zoro whilst they'd get their pants all in a bunch if anyone so much as breathed that Zoro even mid-diffs Sanji. Even though Zoro is the one with a mountain cutting feat without even using Ashura. The hypocrisy stinks. It stinks badly. And Zoro can't do the same things as Luffy. Never said they were dead equal. But you know what Zoro showed in TB? That he has EVERY BIT as much willpower and endurance as Luffy. There is no stat in One Piece as heavily tied to strength as willpower. Then, over the TS, Zoro was trained personally by Mihawk for 2 years, which is the best possible way he could have cultivated his potential. But this you completely dismiss and throw Zoro, one of the most consistently well-treated and highly respected characters in the entire series, under the bus, based purely on loose speculation and non-sequiturs.

That problem is easily resolved by simply noting how Law doesn't look nearly as bad as people (read overzealous Luffy fans) say. G4 has way more raw fighting power than him, but it's got a very short time limit, and Law is better than G2/G3 Luffy. Law got mid diffed by Dofla and Luffy would basically give Dofla high diff when you consider that Doffy was most likely slightly more injured before G4 came out, and that he didn't use his Awakening immediately but took several deadly blows in his surprised state. Law has more hax and versatility than Zoro but Zoro is most likely going to have more raw fighting power. That's the way it's likely to be all the way to the end. Zoro is somewhat close, but not on par with Luffy in raw fighting power, while Law is behind both in that respect but has versatility and hax which allows him to arguably be more of a threat to Luffy than Zoro is, because two different styles going against each other has more potential for upsets and variability than two power fighters clashing. Luffy will always be stronger than both in all likelihood. But Law with his skill, well-roundedness and hax will never be someone Luffy can drop his guard against for even one moment, and Zoro with his steel-hard willpower and massive power output will never be someone that Luffy can just easily demolish but would always have to put in a lot of effort to beat. Both are RESPECTABLE in comparison with Luffy. This has been the case for the whole fucking series and it's not stopping now.


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## RileyD (Aug 17, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Horseshit. Zoro was NEVER PUSHED TO HIS LIMIT in Enies Lobby. There is absolutely no confirmation that he would get murked by Lucci.  Luffy had NO IDEA that Zoro had a power-up, remember? Yeah, conveniently ignored that part did we? You go as far as to try to push the inane bullshit that G2 was "twice as strong" as Zoro when Zoro beat Kaku very decisively once he used Ashura and we have no idea what Ashura could have actually accomplished if used for a longer time and pushed to its limt. All we know is we didn't see that limit in EL and when we did see some of Zoro's limits in TB he looked ridiculously impressive, so much so that some people thought he looked better than Luffy. It's the same bullshit now and then. You and others think you can put a hard cap on Zoro's power, based on loose speculation and "he doesn't have feats" when he isn't pushed to his limit. Or in this recent case, not even pushed at all.


Excluding Asura, Zoro was struggling against Kaku, give someone TWICE the douriki AND a superior Zoan AND superior techniques like Rokugan and stronger Tekkai forms and Zoro dies, this isn't really debatable at all. Lucci demonstrated the importance of the douriki levels when he fought franky, they weren't given numbers arbritarily, they were bench marks.

If Luffy didn't stop him Lucci would murder his crew , this wasn't a fake threat, this was a real condition put up by the author to show the real stakes of the fight.


Zoro said Lucci "wasn't normal" and tells everyone to stay out of the fight, presumably because they are out of their league.


His whole crew lament that Luffy was the only one capable of holding Lucci there and that many of them would be dead right now if Luffy wasn't fighting


Reaffirming that Luffy is the only one who can stop Lucci (even in his post fight injured state he can finish Luffy's crew off): Lucci insists that he will murder his crew, do you think these are empty word from Oda?



G2 was ridiculous before PIS nerfed it in it's *low end showings* 

It's high end showings are still ridiculous, causing flame trail, avoiding Doflamingo's awakening while saving Law, coming *in between* an attack and forcing Kyros to dodge, dodging EXPLOSIONS while being in the middle of them).

Luffy can't "let his guard down" against people like CC and Monet, that doesn't mean they are on his level at G2. The only reason some boss characters are allowed to do the whole "letting their guard down completely" schtick is to hype their hax.

TB endurance feats are impressive, but at the end of the day that damage was not risking luffy's life, whereas when added to Zoro's damage (which wasn't bad enough to really limit him) it severely risked his life- showing how dramatic and large the amount of damage Luffy took (that was not threatening him) was in the first place. This damage/fatigue plagued Zoro the entirety of pre-TS, wheras I think Luffy would have recovered more quickly from it considering he was more fatigued post-Lucci and recovered in time for the next arc.

Zoro was pushed to the extent that he couldn't SLOW birdcage- an accessory movement.

It's shounen 101, Zoro is not going to get some new interesting powerup in an arc while Luffy stays constant, it would be anti climactic. The whole hidden non-g4 Rayleigh tech has already been foreshadowed now, Luffy has more tricks up his sleeve than Zoro does.


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## Coruscation (Aug 17, 2015)

I don't discuss with people beyond help.


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## Marik Swift (Aug 17, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You'd better be saving all of those words up good. Because you're going to have to eat so many of them you'll starve otherwise once Zoro actually gets pushed to 100% of his limit and shows 100% of his power.
> 
> One of the most highly and consistently respected characters in the entire manga is the one the OL searches for every excuse in the book to downplay the everlasting shit out of. Never mind official statements, a long and clear history, never getting a scratch on him aside from by an Admiral that he still endured and repelled or cutting a mountain without his classic trump card. We just _know_ that Zoro is absolute trash to Luffy. Because captainhood! Or something. We don't need to actually explain ourselves. Just say the buzzword.





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yep luffy is the captain must be stronger at all times herp derp, if not the entire crew will make zoro captain or Zoro might even Leave. Can't have that.
> 
> It's like one piece and dragon Ball z are the only anime people know of.



Amen, amen, amen. 

Not saying Zoro is stronger than Luffy, but god some people need to get this out of their head that *"Luffy must be strongest"* for no real reason. My god, watch some more anime/manga for fuck sakes.
​


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## barreltheif (Aug 17, 2015)

I am a firm believer in Luffy > Zoro > Sanji. It has been this way at least since Enies Lobby. G4 Luffy is pretty clearly well above anything Zoro has, and I don't think Zoro can outlast G4 either.
*But what you people are saying is that a severely restricted Luffy is above Zoro.* (Nevermind Sanji, who apparently can't even compare to a restricted Luffy.) This is idiotic. Luffy without his best form isn't going to be high diffing Zoro. It completely flies in the face of everything we've ever seen. It goes against 650 chapters of the M3 dynamic. It's no different than the people who were saying during Thriller Bark that base Luffy > Zoro. Look how things turned out for them. This is exactly the same.

If you wanted to argue that G2 Luffy > Zoro, you would need extraordinary evidence to support such a massive change in the M3 dynamic. You won't find that evidence. Instead, you'll find Zoro *consistently and considerably outperforming Luffy.*

Luffy lost to Caesar. They fought again. He was stopped by Monet. He nearly lost to Monet and had to run away. He struggled against Hody. One of his G2 attacks was stopped by Hyouzou, and he commented on Hyouzou's impressive strength. He clashed evenly with flathead Chinjao for several chapters and needed one of his strongest non-G4 attacks to beat him. Pointy Chinjao then lost to Lao G, and if anything Lao G actually seemed to have no harder a time against Chinjao than Luffy did.
Meanwhile Zoro fodderized and absolutely shat on all of his opponents, including some of these very same people, like Monet and Hyouzou. He hasn't been scratched in 200 chapters (except slightly by an admiral, whom he then pushed back). Oda goes out of his way to point this out.

You can try to nitpick these individual points. Don't. The point isn't that any single fight proves that Zoro is stronger. The point is that Zoro *consistently* performs better than Luffy, and this has been going on for 200 chapters. Oda is clearly portraying Zoro more impressively than G2/G3 Luffy, and you shouldn't try to twist your interpretation of the manga to avoid this.




tanman said:


> I don't know why you've been pushing this so much all of a sudden.




No. It's not all of a sudden. People have been saying for the last four years that Zoro has looked much better than Luffy. They've been saying it ever since Zoro one shotted an arc antagonist at the beginning of the arc. I'm pretty certain that you have acknowledged this too in the past. There was a common response to this. "We should give Luffy the benefit of the doubt. He should be stronger than Zoro. He'll probably show something soon that puts him above Zoro."
This was a completely reasonable response. It was right. G4 puts Luffy above Zoro.
But you guys are going back on this and saying that Luffy was stronger than Zoro even without G4, despite all the evidence to the contrary. And then _on top of G2 Luffy being stronger than Zoro_, Luffy has _another_, much stronger form as well.
No. That is fucking idiotic. It is massive, massive Zoro (and Sanji) downplay. And it flies in the face of 200 chapters of consistent portrayal.


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## barreltheif (Aug 17, 2015)

RileyD said:


> It's shounen 101, Zoro is not going to get some new interesting powerup in an arc while Luffy stays constant, it would be anti climactic. The whole hidden non-g4 Rayleigh tech has already been foreshadowed now, Luffy has more tricks up his sleeve than Zoro does.




Most of the rest of your post was wrong, but I don't have time to respond to all of it.
However, you should note that this in particular is wrong. There is no hidden non-G4 technique. The technique they were alluding to was King Kong Gun. You unfortunately read a mistranslation according to which Rayleigh says that he's going to teach Luffy something new. In the correct translation, he doesn't say this, and it's very clear that they're alluding to King Kong Gun.

There are also several arcs in which Zoro gets a powerup while Luffy does not, such as Loguetown and Skypiea.


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## Monstar6 (Aug 17, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Excluding Asura, Zoro was struggling against Kaku, give someone TWICE the douriki AND a superior Zoan AND superior techniques like Rokugan and stronger Tekkai forms and Zoro dies, this isn't really debatable at all. Lucci demonstrated the importance of the douriki levels when he fought franky, they weren't given numbers arbritarily, they were bench marks.



Luffy was struggling against Blueno before using G2 and he needs 4 attacks in this mode to put Blueno down. Despite this showing he was able to beat someone who is 4 times stronger than Blueno.
Zoro used "Asura" one time against Kaku and put him down. How can you be sure that he cannot put down someone who's "only" 2 times stronger than Kaku by using "asura" on a extended period of time?



RileyD said:


> If Luffy didn't stop him Lucci would murder his crew , this wasn't a fake threat, this was a real condition put up by the author to show the real stakes of the fight.



When Luffy said that his nakamas are engaged in other fight so that doesn't mean "Lucci can beat a fresh Zoro".



RileyD said:


> Zoro said Lucci "wasn't normal" and tells everyone to stay out of the fight, presumably because they are out of their league.



Nope he didn't say that. 
The reason he gave was that they had to secure the escaped road and not being separated by trying to involve they self in this fight. He never said " I'm to weak to fight Lucci so i'll will wait here".



RileyD said:


> His whole crew lament that Luffy was the only one capable of holding Lucci there and that many of them would be dead right now if Luffy wasn't fighting



Not the whole crew, just the weak ones. And at this time, Franky do not know the level of Zoro (i.e. his TB reaction in the Zoro/Ryuma fight ).
So again this link does not prove that Zoro cannot beat Lucci.



RileyD said:


> Reaffirming that Luffy is the only one who can stop Lucci (even in his post fight injured state he can finish Luffy's crew off): Lucci insists that he will murder his crew, do you think these are empty word from Oda?



It was just Lucci taunting Luffy.



RileyD said:


> G2 was ridiculous before PIS nerfed it in it's *low end showings*
> 
> It's high end showings are still ridiculous, causing flame trail, avoiding Doflamingo's awakening while saving Law, coming *in between* an attack and forcing Kyros to dodge, dodging EXPLOSIONS while being in the middle of them).
> 
> Luffy can't "let his guard down" against people like CC and Monet, that doesn't mean they are on his level at G2. The only reason some boss characters are allowed to do the whole "letting their guard down completely" schtick is to hype their hax.



What hax power did Base Hyouzou had ? I mean he was call strong by Luffy , was able to block AND counter attack a "Jet Pistol"...except maybe it was to hype ES Hyouzou (you know , the much stronger version) and hype Zoro strength in that regard...no it cannot be that, right?

Plus, you are basically telling us that there are feats that we must no take into account but who will decide what feat count and which don't? And can we do the same with Zoro or do this rule only applies to Luffy?

TB endurance feats are impressive, but at the end of the day that damage was not risking luffy's life, whereas when added to Zoro's damage (which wasn't bad enough to really limit him) it severely risked his life- showing how dramatic and large the amount of damage Luffy took (that was not threatening him) was in the first place. This damage/fatigue plagued Zoro the entirety of pre-TS, wheras I think Luffy would have recovered more quickly from it considering he was more fatigued post-Lucci and recovered in time for the next arc. [/QUOTE]

Just so i know, why are you lying? 
I mean , all of us had read the manga so we obviously know that it's not true so what do trying to achieve here?



RileyD said:


> Zoro was pushed to the extent that he couldn't SLOW birdcage- an accessory movement.



Can we say that like it is a 'PIS Nerf" and "low end showing" from Zoro?



RileyD said:


> It's shounen 101, Zoro is not going to get some new interesting powerup in an arc while Luffy stays constant, it would be anti climactic. .




So when Zoro got two new swords in Loguetown and Luffy got no PU that was anti climatic? 
When Zoro got a new sword in TB and Luffy do not had any PU that was anti climatic?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 17, 2015)

_Luffy > Law > Zoro > Sanji

Luffy overall beats Law with extreme difficulty and Zoro with very high difficulty. The gaps between them are about as large, so disregarding match-ups, the strongest of each team would be able to beat the weakest of the other team with about as much difficulty. Law is absolutely great to have in a team fight, while Luffy shines especially through his ability to gain a serious strength boost for a limited amount of time as result of using his G4. Luffy and Sanji have great mobility on their own, but Law can nicely cover up for what Zoro lacks through his shambles, and enable powerful combo attacks such as the one that allowed Luffy to land his Red Haw, or Law his Gamma Knife against Doflamingo. That coupled with Zoro's firepower makes for a deadly combo, one that could take out of the fight either of their opponents.

G4 is a great trump card to overcome a powerful opponent in a 1 vs 1, but this is a team fight and Law's contribution to the team is greater in my opinion. He better complements Zoro, and either of them have the ability to disable an opponent with a single powerful attack. In my opinion Law and Zoro would win more often than not._


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## Black Superman (Aug 17, 2015)

Even with G4, I think Zoro could give Luffy difficulty.


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## NUMBA1TROLL (Aug 19, 2015)

G4 Luffy >> Law > Zoro >> Sanji

Two things can happen here:

1. Luffy takes out one person (preferably Law, because his hax is problematic and Zoro has insane endurance) before G4 runs out, Sanji then stalls the remaining person and wait for Luffy to recover. Team Luffy wins.

2. If Luffy didn't take out one person with G4, Sanji has to cover for Luffy when G4 is down. Being the weak link here, he would die fast to Law + Zoro.

I put the odds at 60/40, on team Luffy's favorite.


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## kidgogeta (Aug 19, 2015)

- Sanji can't stall Zoro longer than Law can stall Luffy. No arguments. There's a sizable gap between Zoro and Sanji and arguments to the contrary should not be entertained.

- Law was pinned down by Fuji and Doflamingo and escaped. The sheer distance that Law was able to cover with his ability once he started running away  was insane. Doflamingo has flight and he still couldn't catch him. The only reason Doffy even caught up was because Law CHOSE to engage him. I'm gonna go ahead and say Law is excellent at stalling people stronger than him. 

- Zoro puts Sanji down relatively quickly with Lion Song or something,  and then proceeds to give Law the opening he needs for a Mes / Gamma Knife on  Luffy and its GG.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 19, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I don't discuss with people beyond help.





winner


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## Yuki (Aug 19, 2015)

kidgogeta said:


> - Sanji can't stall Zoro longer than Law can stall Luffy. No arguments. There's a sizable gap between Zoro and Sanji and arguments to the contrary should not be entertained.
> 
> - Law was pinned down by Fuji and Doflamingo and escaped. The sheer distance that Law was able to cover with his ability once he started running away  was insane. Doflamingo has flight and he still couldn't catch him. The only reason Doffy even caught up was because Law CHOSE to engage him. I'm gonna go ahead and say Law is excellent at stalling people stronger than him.
> 
> - Zoro puts Sanji down relatively quickly with Lion Song or something,  and then proceeds to give Law the opening he needs for a Mes / Gamma Knife on  Luffy and its GG.



You have a point, but G4 Luffy is WAY faster than DD and can fly as well.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 19, 2015)

Law solos.

1st does a personality switch between luffy and Sanji.

Then when they're disoriented he gamma knife's them. 

GG.


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## Yuki (Aug 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Law solos.
> 
> 1st does a personality switch between luffy and Sanji.
> 
> ...



>_> If he could do that one two people this level during battle... he would have done it on DD and Trebol...


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 19, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> >_> If he could do that one two people this level during battle... he would have done it on DD and Trebol...



Man that guy used shambles on Doflamingo, no problem. Honestly Doffy should've been shambles'd into the water back when Law was fighting him on the bridge and drowned.


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