# Kakashi vs Tsunade



## joshhookway (Apr 3, 2013)

Restrictions: Kamui
Distance: 1,000 meters
SOM: Kakashi IC and Tsunade BL
Location: Konoha Crater
Knowledge: Manga


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## goldendriger (Apr 3, 2013)

Kakashi wins. IC Kakashi will stay away from Tsunade until he can get 1 clean shot in, and Tsunade wont take a Raikiri to the face. 

Also Distance- 1,000? 1,000 What? Miles? Feet? Metres? Inches?


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 3, 2013)

Kakashi should win even without Kamui. 

Raiton clones, Raiton wolf, Raiton infused shuriken and kunai throws, underground ambushes aided by mud wall blocking and so on. 

The fact he's also faster automatically makes this bout pointless in the regard that Tsunade is a CQC fighter.


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## Sans (Apr 4, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kakashi should win even without Kamui.
> 
> Raiton clones, Raiton wolf, Raiton infused shuriken and kunai throws, underground ambushes aided by mud wall blocking and so on.
> 
> The fact he's also faster automatically makes this bout pointless in the regard that Tsunade is a CQC fighter.



That's some impressive listing abilities you just displayed.


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## Krippy (Apr 4, 2013)

Tsunade isn't touching him with his speed and sharingan, a well timed Raiden should end this


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## Innerhype (Apr 4, 2013)

Not for nothing but how the devil is Kakashi winning this?

Wouldn't he run out of chakra since Tsunade is practically immortal with that broken healing technique?


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## PopoTime (Apr 4, 2013)

Without Kamui Kakashi loses this.

Tsunade just has too much experience to fall for Kakashi's hiding underground shenenigans


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## bleakwinter (Apr 4, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> ...
> 
> Tsunade doesn't have a realistic chance of winning under these circumstances. Usually Kakashi would have to create a bunshin whilst focusing on Tsunade; in this scenario however, due to his diverse move pool, he has a myriad of options available to him before even engaging Tsunade in battle. Essentially, Tsunade is most likely going to be fighting a bunshin during the early stages of this battle.


Creating a bunshin will immediately place Kakashi at a stamina disadvantage by halving his Chakra (1). He doesn't have Naruto present to replenish his Chakra levels either, so this would be a huge waste, all for a tactic that may not even kill her due to her regeneration at that.



> Standard procedure: RKB feint/followed by Raiden/Raikiri ends this.


[/quote]
Raiton Kage Bunshin merely paralyzes the victim temporarily. Byakugo has healed multiple stabbing injuries, including one's that have hit her in vital spots and have created far larger would sizes than what Raikiri is capable of. Placing things into perspective, Naruto's earlier Kyubi shrouds had completely healed a Chidori through the chest (2). When contrasted with a superior healing technique (Byakugo), it shouldn't be hard to visualize why a Raikiri would fail to kill Tsunade. 



> After the Raiton Kage-bunshin had dispersed, it left the two paths of Pain  to Kakashi's sneak attack. Here we see Kabuto successfully encumbering Tsunade's movements and, consequently tagging her-in the following page Tsunade is -even a second could cost her dearly against a ninja of Kakashi's calibre; keep in mind that unlike Kabuto, Kakashi isn't going to close his eyes and gloat after restricting her movements. So you're incorrect, a  Raiton-Kage bunshin would be very useful, it's faster and more reflexive than Tsunade, and has access to Raiton-jutsu.



I don't understand why you are highlighting Tsunade's inferior part I feats and unfairly contrasting them with Kakashi's superior part II feats. Both characters' Part II incarnations are clearly leaps and bounds above their Part I selves, thus they should be compared in parallel with one another. In short, using Tsunade's part I feats as ammunition to claim that Kakashi would overcome her on the basis of his part II performance isn't a consistent comparison. That would be similar to me claiming that Kakashi was tagged by someone like Zabuza, therefore Tsunade would have zero trouble hitting him as she was fast enough to swat Madara's fireballs before four other Kage could even react. 



> The Raiton-kunai was through boulders. I don't see what's so funny about that.



Raiton-Kunai was effortlessly kicked away by Obito, who is by no means a Taijutsu fighter. Tsunade was able to react to several fireballs that the other Kage could not as I've pointed out above (3) . She should have zero difficulty swatting away the Kunai. 



> Yet dojutsu overlords like  and failed to detect Kakashi whilst he was underground. Why do you think that is? Kakashi was fighting both Pain and Itachi with killing intent; conversely, he was just testing Sakura and Naruto, and had no intention of killing them-it was just a training exercise him for him.


Pain's Doujutsu is rather irrelevant to detecting Kakashi's underground ambushes, as Rinnegan yields no known perceptive boost to the user's ability to react to attacks such as how Sharingan does. Tsunade had reacted to Kabuto's ground attack and had moved out of harm's way quite easily (4). As she's definitely improved in Part II, I see no reason why avoiding Kakashi's ground attack would be problematic. 



> He is though.
> 
> Kakashi is fast enough to keep pace with Sharingan-Rinnegan enhanced Version 2 jinjuriki. His speed is praised by top-tier Sharingan wielders like Obito. Even the outdated data book represented Kakashi as the faster shinobi.
> 
> Tsunade's attacks are capable of "one-shoting" most of  Narutoverse, but Kakashi's Sharingan would allow him to see through any incoming attacks with great clarity, and respond accordingly.



This is true. Unfortunately, 'faster' does not equate to 'your opponent never being able to land a hit because they are slower'. The databook also claims that Asuma is faster than Hidan, yet Hidan exhibited little difficulty scratching Asuma with his scythe. Tsunade would only need to strike Kakashi's body once to render him unable to fight back (Assuming it doesn't simply kill him), whereas Kakashi would require dealing a lot of sustained damage to her (Forcing Byakugo to run out), before she succumbs to death. Logically speaking, I would actually deem Kakashi to be faster than _most _of the opponents he's ever fought in the manga's history thus far. Conversely, they were all able to strike him at least once. The bottom line is that you cannot use a marginal speed difference to justify Tsunade being unable to strike Kakashi at all.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 4, 2013)

. . 1000 meters. Really? That isn't far off from being a mile, I'm skeptical of whether or not the pair can even see each other. At any rate, that would be more of a problem for Tsunade than the reverse since she couldn't see what handseals he's making, or if he's even making any. More importantly, with Kamui unrestricted there's no way she can win, Kakashi apparently has the chakra capacity to spam Kamui now, and with IC knowledge on Tsunade, he won't be afraid to use it at all.

The match heavily favors Kakashi.




Santoryu said:


> Standard procedure: RKB feint/followed by Raiden/Raikiri ends this.
> 
> After the Raiton Kage-bunshin had dispersed, it left the two paths of Pain  to Kakashi's sneak attack. Here we see Kabuto successfully encumbering Tsunade's movements and, consequently tagging her-in the following page Tsunade is -even a second could cost her dearly against a ninja of Kakashi's calibre; keep in mind that unlike Kabuto, Kakashi isn't going to close his eyes and gloat after restricting her movements. So you're incorrect, a  Raiton-Kage bunshin would be very useful, it's faster and more reflexive than Tsunade, and has access to Raiton-jutsu.



Why are you using dated Part I feats? She may have been heavily fatigued back then, but by Part II she casually takes damage of a much grander scale, and continues fighting without being slowed down. I have no evidence of Tsunade tanking  a raiton, but she's been sliced, punched, stabbed, burnt, crushed, she's even been moved at lightning fast speeds while inside an actual lightning-bolt . . I don't think its unfair to say a raiton clone would be pretty ineffective in slowing her down. Though its true clones are pretty inconsistent when it comes to power levels, I believe the general consensus is that clones are less skilled than their original, hence why base Naruto could hit an Itachi clone with rasengan, why Madara's mokuton clones couldn't absorb Onoki's jinton quick enough etc. 




> The Raiton-kunai was through boulders. I don't see what's so funny about that.



I'm not sure how a kunai is going to slow her down much. Its no different than him stabbing her with a regular Raikiri, it will injure her sure but, it won't slow her down.




> Yet dojutsu overlords like  and failed to detect Kakashi whilst he was underground. Why do you think that is? Kakashi was fighting both Pain and Itachi with killing intent; conversely, he was just testing Sakura and Naruto, and had no intention of killing them-it was just a training exercise him for him.



In the case of Itachi, he was was only at one third of his maximum strength. He was also using a genjutsu on Kakashi at the time, and lost his focus - which won't happen against Tsunade. As for Pein, he relied on Shinra Tensei for escaping harm, Tsunade can most likely just dodge [1]





> Kakashi is fast enough to keep pace with Sharingan-Rinnegan enhanced Version 2 jinjuriki. His speed is praised by top-tier Sharingan wielders like Obito. Even the outdated data book represented Kakashi as the faster shinobi.



Tsunade has moved in unison with Base Ei, who was noted to be a fast individual. She also outsped an airborne Onoki who was also noted to be pretty fast. And in terms of reflexes, she was able to register that Madara was in front of her and about to attack only moments after being dropped onto the battlefield in a _lightning bolt_. She isn't as fast as Kakashi by any means, but not so much that all of his hits are going to blitz her. And certainly, Kakashi has to be cautious in confronting her in close range, a graze or poke is all it takes to knock him off balance or upset his footing. 




> Madara stated that she was *slower*, all that battle proved is that she's physically stronger than Ei (something we already know) and that the Kages work well together.



I think narut0ninjafan was making the point that if it had been a generic character with average speed, Madara wouldn't have made the comparison because it would have been evident that Ei was faster from the get-go. However, despite having seen Tsunade move around prior, he didn't comment on her speed until she attacked him herself.





> >Raikage attacks
> >Madara looks at him
> >Tsunade covered some ground and attacks



I think you're missing the point.



The red arrow indicates the distance Tsunade moved. The green arrow indicates the distance Onoki/Ei moved. In the same time that Onoki can travel that distance, Tsunade can travel a significantly larger one.



Anyway, I agree she loses but I disagree with you on quite a few things.​​


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## Bonly (Apr 4, 2013)

Basically this comes down to can Kakashi land a deadly hit to her head killing her before Tsunade likely outlast him. Kakashi is faster,smarter, and stronger(not physically) but Tsunade has decent speed for a kage level ninja and landing such a hit won't be all that easy. Im 50/50 here as Tsunade could outlast Kakashi and finish him while on the other hand Kakashi is a tactical genius and could also land a killing shot in.


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## Santoryu (Apr 4, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> . . 1000 meters. Really? That isn't far off from being a mile, I'm skeptical of whether or not the pair can even see each other. At any rate, that would be more of a problem for Tsunade than the reverse since she couldn't see what handseals he's making, or if he's even making any. More importantly, with Kamui unrestricted there's no way she can win, Kakashi apparently has the chakra capacity to spam Kamui now, and with IC knowledge on Tsunade, he won't be afraid to use it at all.​




Kamui is restricted, if it wasn't, I would imagine that this thread would've been closed by now.



> Restrictions: Kamui







> Why are you using dated Part I feats? She may have been heavily fatigued back then, but by Part II she casually takes damage of a much grander scale, and continues fighting without being slowed down.


Because it applies nicely, just because part 1 feats are outdated doesn't mean we shouldn't use them, unless part 2 contradicts them of course. I don't think anything shown in part 2 refutes my point.

Just because Tsunade "tanks" damage whilst in Byakugou mode doesn't mean a RKB would be ineffective; when dispersed, it completely paralyzed Asura to the point that he was incapable of evading Choji's attack. 




> I have no evidence of Tsunade tanking  a raiton, but she's been sliced, punched, stabbed, burnt, crushed, she's even been moved at lightning fast speeds while inside an actual lightning-bolt . . I don't think its unfair to say a raiton clone would be pretty ineffective in slowing her down.



I don't think it's fair to say a raiton clone would be ineffective. Here we see Kakashi being stabbed by the Deva path, yet he fights on like its nothing, but this doesn't make him immune to techniques which are specifically designed to stun ones' movements.

Let's just say that it wouldn't immobilize her for arguments sake (I believe it would hinder her obviously), it''d serve as a distraction at the very least,, allowing Kakashi to finish her off. Bunshin feint followed by a Raikiri/Raiden is an extremely likely scenario, even Uchiha Madara is not immune to these tactics.

and please remember that the RKB is capable of using jutsu like Raikiri. It even attempted to decapitate the Asura path, and would've succeeded had it not been due to shared vision.



> Though its true clones are pretty inconsistent when it comes to power levels,


It depends.


> hence why base Naruto could hit an Itachi clone with rasengan,


Actually, the only reason Naruto was able to land a hit on Itachi was due to Kakashi pinning him down.

Itachi later noted that they were physical replicas and only limited them to 30% chakra, this did not however affect their physical stats or intelligence.



> why Madara's mokuton clones couldn't absorb Onoki's jinton quick enough etc.



You're referring to this, correct? That was because his clones were clad in Susanoo, they could not initiate the Preta Path ability quick enough to absorb Oonoki's Jinton.

It seems that Susanoo makes affects the user's speed/reflexes; we see this again with Itachi
.


> I'm not sure how a kunai is going to slow her down much. Its no different than him stabbing her with a regular Raikiri, it will injure her sure but, it won't slow her down.


It depends* where* he stabs her.

Kakashi happens to be a shinobi who likes to aim for the skull:

Itachi

Itachi

Itachi


There are more examples but you get the idea.



> In the case of Itachi, he was was only at one third of his maximum strength


As stated earlier, this did not affect his intelligence ot physical stats.

.





> He was also using a genjutsu on Kakashi at the time, and lost his focus - which won't happen against Tsunade.


That's his problem, but the point here is that Kakashi set up the bunshin and went underground whilst Itachi was executing his jutsu. Kakashi's Raiton Kage bunshin is more than capable of diverting Tsunade's attention away; it succeeded in focusing on the two strongest paths of Pain, and had no problems getting behind one.

In other words, Tsunade will be fighting a bunshin (which she will think is Kakashi) then Kakashi pops up from underground, or he can always conceal himself and, act accordingly.



> As for Pein, he relied on Shinra Tensei for escaping harm, Tsunade can most likely just dodge


I did state that Pain didn't detect Kakashi being underground until the latter actually made an attack. Tsunade dodging an underground strike is plausible, but evading it when she is being occupied by a bunshin? I doubt it.




> Tsunade has moved in unison with Base Ei, who was noted to be a fast individual. She also outsped an airborne Onoki who was also noted to be pretty fast. And in terms of reflexes, she was able to register that Madara was in front of her and about to attack only moments after being dropped onto the battlefield in a _lightning bolt_. She isn't as fast as Kakashi by any means, but not so much that all of his hits are going to blitz her. And certainly, Kakashi has to be cautious in confronting her in close range, a graze or poke is all it takes to knock him off balance or upset his footing.



Attacking in unison with them does not make her comparable to Ei: look here, this is even more of a "concrete feat"

Itachi

Itachi


Kakashi and 6th gated Gai start moving at the same time, yet both of them reach their destination at exactly the same time.....Does this mean Kakashi is comparable to a 6th gated Gai in speed? Of course not....I'd be surprised if he's even faster than base Gai.

Tsunade is not slow, but she's noticeably slower than Kakashi, and while her reflexes are decent, it's nothing compared to the *Sharingan*.

But you know, I've debated Tsunade's speed countless times, so I digress.​


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 4, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> ...
> 
> Tsunade doesn't have a realistic chance of winning under these circumstances. Usually Kakashi would have to create a bunshin whilst focusing on Tsunade; in this scenario however, due to his diverse move pool, he has a myriad of options available to him before even engaging Tsunade in battle. Essentially, Tsunade is most likely going to be fighting a bunshin during the early stages of this battle.
> 
> Standard procedure: RKB feint/followed by Raiden/Raikiri ends this.



Why would it end it? I'm confident Byakugou would heal her.



> After the Raiton Kage-bunshin had dispersed, it left the two paths of Pain  to Kakashi's sneak attack. Here we see Kabuto successfully encumbering Tsunade's movements and, consequently tagging her-in the following page Tsunade is -even a second could cost her dearly against a ninja of Kakashi's calibre; keep in mind that unlike Kabuto, Kakashi isn't going to close his eyes and gloat after restricting her movements. So you're incorrect, a  Raiton-Kage bunshin would be very useful, it's faster and more reflexive than Tsunade, and has access to Raiton-jutsu.



Using Kakashi's part II feats against Tsunade's part I feats is a weak argument, and only damages your credibility. The same goes for Kakashi anyway. Even a second could and will cost him dearly against a ninja of Tsunade's calibre. There is a reason Tsunade takes a lot of hits, and it's not because she's too slow to dodge (she taught Sakura on how to dodge attacks). It's because she can take and heal the damage, and the split second the opponent takes to land the hit, Tsunade can counter attack. Now if Kakashi were to use a Raikiri, that split second would give Tsunade the time to fight back (as she did when Kabuto attacked her if you want to use part I feats, and this time her muscles won't be cut so her strength will still be available).




> Baseless, albeit we didn't see the full extent of its powers.
> 
> 
> The Raiton-kunai was through boulders. I don't see what's so funny about that.



Do you really think Tsunade can't dodge attacks of those calibre?



> Yet dojutsu overlords like  and failed to detect Kakashi whilst he was underground. Why do you think that is? Kakashi was fighting both Pain and Itachi with killing intent; conversely, he was just testing Sakura and Naruto, and had no intention of killing them-it was just a training exercise him for him.



I think you're confusing the Sharingan and Rinnegan with the Byakugan. Sharingan and Rinnegan don't provide much benefit in seeing whether your opponents are underground or not except maybe to sense their chakra. But again, using part I feats Tsunade was able to dodge Kabuto's doton in time and counterattack. Even if Kakashi did land a hit (I doubt it) what then? It's not going to kill Tsunade and she can counterattack.



> He is though.
> 
> Kakashi is fast enough to keep pace with Sharingan-Rinnegan enhanced Version 2 jinjuriki. His speed is praised by top-tier Sharingan wielders like Obito. Even the outdated data book represented Kakashi as the faster shinobi.



He isn't though.

Why does him being slightly faster than Tsunade mean all his attacks will connect and none of hers will? That's not how it works. Yes the databook said he was faster, but the databook also said Asuma was faster than Hidan but Hidan still got a hit, like someone said previously.



> Madara stated that she was *slower*, all that battle proved is that she's physically stronger than Ei (something we already know) and that the Kages work well together.
> 
> >Raikage attacks
> >Madara looks at him
> >Tsunade covered some ground and attacks



The fact that he comments on her speed shows that she's no slouch in speed and has comparable speed to A though.

Tsunade has kept pace with A, and moved a further distance than a lightened V2 A at the same time as him to co-ordinate the attack. That only further proves that she can keep up in speed, as in my opinion that is a far more impressive feat than being able to keep up with V2 jinchurikis since A is known for his insane speed, while I'm not sure whether V2 has been stated to improve your speed.

And just another thought. Note that Tsunade jumped up and punched away 5 katons, BEFORE ANY OF THE OTHER KAGES MANAGED TO REACT, including A again showing her speed.



> Tsunade's attacks are capable of "one-shoting" most of  Narutoverse, but Kakashi's Sharingan would allow him to see through any incoming attacks with great clarity, and respond accordingly.



This is quite an outdated argument. Has the Sharingan predicted the movements of a top tier taijutsu user with great clarity and allowed them to respond accordingly? This has only ever worked on Naruto, and even with it, it didn't stop Tsunade from blitzing Madara as I previously posted.



> .......
> 
> thought



This sort of argument only further damages your credibility as it in no way takes away from the fact that Tsunade still blitzed him. The fact he need a Mokuton bunshin proves this, as Tsunade herself said.

If you want to play that game, I could also post this in response to your claim that Kakashi's doton would get Tsunade. In fact, that's actually a more credible argument than yours, because this shows that Kakashi's attack wasn't quick enough to hit before Pain could react, whereas Tsunade was able to blitz Madara before he could react, and your link only shows that he only survived with a wood clone.

EDIT:



Santoryu said:


> Because it applies nicely, just because part 1 feats are outdated doesn't mean we shouldn't use them, unless part 2 contradicts them of course. I don't think anything shown in part 2 refutes my point.



Well her part II stamina and speed feats contradict them.



> Just because Tsunade "tanks" damage whilst in Byakugou mode doesn't mean a RKB would be ineffective; when dispersed, it completely paralyzed Asura to the point that he was incapable of evading Choji's attack.
> I don't think it's fair to say a raiton clone would be ineffective. Here we see Kakashi being stabbed by the Deva path, yet he fights on like its nothing, but this doesn't make him immune to techniques which are specifically designed to stun ones' movements.
> 
> Let's just say that it wouldn't immobilize her for arguments sake (I believe it would hinder her obviously), it''d serve as a distraction at the very least,, allowing Kakashi to finish her off. Bunshin feint followed by a Raikiri/Raiden is an extremely likely scenario, even Uchiha Madara is not immune to these tactics.



and please remember that the RKB is capable of using jutsu like Raikiri. It even attempted to decapitate the Asura path, and would've succeeded had it not been due to shared vision.[/quote]

True. However, even if it were to stun her, Kakashi would still have to kill her. 

The Uchiha Madara comparison is a very bad comparison. He doesn't have Byakugou.


It depends.

Actually, the only reason Naruto was able to land a hit on Itachi was due to Kakashi pinning him down.



> It depends* where* he stabs her.
> 
> Kakashi happens to be a shinobi who likes to aim for the skull:
> 
> ...



There are equally many examples of him not aiming for the skull. On most occasions he seems to aim Raikiri at the chest though.



> Attacking in unison with them does not make her comparable to Ei: look here, this is even more of a "concrete feat"
> 
> Kakashi pinning him
> Link removed
> ...



They aren't at the same place though? Gai is ahead of him, and Kakashi moved linearly, while Gai didn't. Nice try though.



> Tsunade is not slow, but she's noticeably slower than Kakashi, and while her reflexes are decent, it's nothing compared to the *Sharingan*.
> 
> But you know, I've debated Tsunade's speed countless times, so I digress.



Well, if reflexes are nothing compared to the Sharingan, I'm pretty sure Madara would not have been blitzed by Tsunade. It seems like you're making it sound like a part I Sasuke could deal with Tsunade just because he has the *Sharingan*.

And again, I will point you to the fact that Tsunade move and batted away 5 fireballs BEFORE THE OTHER KAGES COULD EVEN REACT, and that includes A, who is known for his speed. Let's not try to pretend that Tsunade is sluggish (no pun intended) and would never land a hit.


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## Johnny Kage (Apr 4, 2013)

-snip-... Why is there still some people that underestimate Tsunade after all the feats she displayed?

1000 meters distance? No big deal because Kakashi have no long ranged attacks anyway...
Tsunade is a chakra/stamina monster while Kakashi feats rely on the borrowed Kuramas chakra. Kakashi by himself on the other way...

Its rather laughable because 1000m distance is enough for Kakashi running away because other way he is going to get beaten hard...

Tsunade can tank dozens of Raikiris and break all Kakashi bones with a single punch while his hand is stuck on her chest

Raiton bunshins will just shorten his defeat, Kakashi will die form chakra exaustion.

You restricted Kamui, the only shot for Kakashi, so...

Can't see other way, Tsunade wins easy diff

I require /thread, this is utter stomp


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## Jad (Apr 4, 2013)

In terms of close combat, I am going to have to go with Kakashi. He can quite easily turn this into a 2 on 1, now you have two Kakashi's with Sharingans, who are faster and I believe to be very skilled in Taijutsu, with at least the real Kakashi using that *Raiton-Style Taijutsu*. Let that roll off your lips,* Raiton-Style Taijustsu* that means if he counters your punches or he hits you, your going to be extremely and easily sliced up and dissected. His got _light-sabers_ in his hands. If he can counter Tsunade and slice an arm off, that's it. It falls downhill for Tsunade because we have no idea how long it will take to muster up the cell-regeneration for an entire arms worth in one-go. Which means counter-attack.

I also like to point out that I believe Santoryu keeps using the Raiton Kunai that went through the boulders as an example of being a threat to Tsunade, simply because it sliced it entirely in half before Kakashi even made it through the entire thing. When he was thrown by Killer Bee. Meaning, you would think that if he could sliced an entire Giant boulder in half without going through it entirely, that if Tsunade came into contact with the Raiton Kunai, same thing.

Again, as an added point, Tsunade has never participated in battle WHEN she is actually REGENERATING - _in fact I can't remember anyone fighting and healing on the go, and we know Medical ninjutsu requires concentration_. If you noticed she stands still or in one spot without moving much when she is in the process of cell-regeneration,  in a semi-state of concentration. I say _semi _because she did have to land on the ground after Mabui teleportation.

Tsunade heals from Mabui transmission - concentrating semi-like
Tsunade heals from Orochimaru's wound (PIS - Orochimaru didn't attack) - concentrating
 Tsunade heals from Madara's attacks, doesn't even get up pretty much in the exact same spot from when she was hit by Magatama to when the 25 Mokuton clones came out

It's just something I noticed. The fact that in Souzou Saisei she holds a seal to regenerate and her stance and face comes across as concentrating like. Then the same with Byakgoun (can't spell that word for crap) where she doesn't move or anything. She isn't running around healing and attacking at the same time, or hardly even moving much.

Note: If you want references, just yelp~


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> In terms of close combat, I am going to have to go with Kakashi. He can quite easily turn this into a 2 on 1, now you have two Kakashi's with Sharingans, who are faster and I believe to be very skilled in Taijutsu, with at least the real Kakashi using that *Raiton-Style Taijutsu*. Let that roll off your lips,* Raiton-Style Taijustsu* that means if he counters your punches or he hits you, your going to be extremely and easily sliced up and dissected. His got _light-sabers_ in his hands. If he can counter Tsunade and slice an arm off, that's it. It falls downhill for Tsunade because we have no idea how long it will take to muster up the cell-regeneration for an entire arms worth in one-go. Which means counter-attack.



Again, the underestimation of Tsunade is too much. 

She dealt with 5 Susanoo clones for hours, and is a superior taijutsu user to Kakashi. Again, if he slices an arm off, she still has the other arm and two legs to counterattack with. And Tsunade's counterattack will leave Kakashi dead. Kakashi's will just leave her injured for a while.

And stop it with the Sharingan nonsense. Sharingan doesn't make you immune from taijutsu, it didn't stop Tsunade blitzing Madara, and it didn't stop Kakashi from receiving hits in pretty much every fight.



> I also like to point out that I believe Santoryu keeps using the Raiton Kunai that went through the boulders as an example of being a threat to Tsunade, simply because it sliced it entirely in half before Kakashi even made it through the entire thing. When he was thrown by Killer Bee. Meaning, you would think that if he could sliced an entire Giant boulder in half without going through it entirely, that if Tsunade came into contact with the Raiton Kunai, same thing.



She can survive being moved at lightning speed with a few cuts. I doubt how effective a Raiton Kunai is. And more importantly, she can dodge it easily. There is no reason for her to tank a long ranged attack if it doesn't give her a chance to counterattack.



> Again, as an added point, Tsunade has never participated in battle WHEN she is actually REGENERATING - _in fact I can't remember anyone fighting and healing on the go, and we know Medical ninjutsu requires concentration_. If you noticed she stands still or in one spot without moving much when she is in the process of cell-regeneration,  in a semi-state of concentration. I say _semi _because she did have to land on the ground after Mabui teleportation.
> 
> Tsunade heals from Mabui transmission - concentrating semi-like
> Tsunade heals from Orochimaru's wound (PIS - Orochimaru didn't attack) - concentrating
> ...



That's what Byakugou is for, you do realize?


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## Jad (Apr 5, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Again, the underestimation of Tsunade is too much.
> 
> She dealt with 5 Susanoo clones for hours, and is a superior taijutsu user to Kakashi. Again, if he slices an arm off, she still has the other arm and two legs to counterattack with. And Tsunade's counterattack will leave Kakashi dead. Kakashi's will just leave her injured for a while.



The 5 Sasuno's, show me how they fought, because all they were are just lumbering Giants that were teasing the Kages. The entire fight is off paneled, it's not helping your cause to say "she fought against 5 Sasuno's." Show me how ferocious and fast were they, what techniques did they use etc. The fact that she was shown as the only one of the Kages with two Blades in her before anyone else says something.

So Kakashi is now less skilled then a one-armed Tsunade? Let me use your famous saying "_AHAHAH the underestimation, I can't believe it_". More like he can continue to attack and follow up on her circumstance - being in an injured and vulnerable state. The sharingan allows you to predict the 'course' of the next attack, and guess what? Tsunade is a very Linear fighter, so it's very easy for his sharingan to pick up on that.



> And stop it with the Sharingan nonsense. Sharingan doesn't make you immune from taijutsu, it didn't stop Tsunade blitzing Madara, and it didn't stop Kakashi from receiving hits in pretty much every fight.


It allowed Base Sasuke dodge most of Kyuubi Naruto's punches and Taijutsu manevours. Kakashi is already more flexible, fast and great in Taijutsu, this all plays to his advantage in a CQC match. She didn't blitz Madara, it was a Mokuton clone, a trap that he saved for Tsunade, because guess what? A surprise attack from underground got her and it worked. Guess who is a master of surprise underground attacks and clone usage? That's right, Kakashi.




> She can survive being moved at lightning speed with a few cuts. I doubt how effective a Raiton Kunai is. And more importantly, she can dodge it easily. There is no reason for her to tank a long ranged attack if it doesn't give her a chance to counterattack.


Thanks for missing my entire point.

 The Raiton Kunai was able to split an entire Boulder before it even passed through the entire thing. Do you see what I am saying now?
 I'm not saying Kakashi will throw it, I am saying he will use it within a Taijutsu skirmish. Tsunade can't block any of Kakashi's attacks because they would go through her like a hot knife in butter, while on the other-hand Kakashi has the Sharingan which can predict her linear movements.




> That's what Byakugou is for, you do realize?



Read it again, I was talking about when she starts to regenerates.

Read my entire post again. You missed where I said he can utilize clones as well, turning this into an advantage in CQC. He can also use Sharinga-Genjutsu to catch her off guard.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> The 5 Sasuno's, show me how they fought, because all they were are just lumbering Giants that were teasing the Kages. The entire fight is off paneled, it's not helping your cause to say "she fought against 5 Sasuno's." Show me how ferocious and fast were they, what techniques did they use etc. The fact that she was shown as the only one of the Kages with two Blades in her before anyone else says something.



Again, you're reaching too far with the fact she has 2 blades in her. She can AFFORD to have 2 blades in her, so of course it makes sense that she'd take a hit to land a easy counterattack. The fact that she and Onoki are the only Kages that defeated the clones and weren't defeated themselves speaks volumes too. But I guess you'll ignore that part.



> So Kakashi is now less skilled then a one-armed Tsunade? Let me use your famous saying "_AHAHAH the underestimation, I can't believe it_". More like he can continue to attack and follow up on her circumstance - being in an injured and vulnerable state. The sharingan allows you to predict the 'course' of the next attack, and guess what? Tsunade is a very Linear fighter, so it's very easy for his sharingan to pick up on that.



Again, you keep talking about skills as if Kakashi will never be hit. The second he hits her, he's open for a counterattack. That's what Byakugou is for, so she can take the first hit (like she did against the Susanoo clones). And no, the Sharingan does predict the "course" of the attack but it's never helped in that way against Kage level shinobi, just against Naruto's linear style. Where is your basis on Tsunade being a linear fighter coming from? The fact she uses Taijutsu? Madara's Sharingan didn't stop Tsunade blitzing him.



> It allowed Base Sasuke dodge most of Kyuubi Naruto's punches and Taijutsu manevours. Kakashi is already more flexible, fast and great in Taijutsu, this all plays to his advantage in a CQC match. She didn't blitz Madara, it was a Mokuton clone, a trap that he saved for Tsunade, because guess what? A surprise attack from underground got her and it worked. Guess who is a master of surprise underground attacks and clone usage? That's right, Kakashi.



She still blitzed him. You can't say just because it was a clone the speed feat doesn't count. He was PUSHED into using the clone, meaning if he could have done otherwise he would have. But he couldn't because he got blitzed. Deal with it.





> Thanks for missing my entire point.
> 
> The Raiton Kunai was able to split an entire Boulder before it even passed through the entire thing. Do you see what I am saying now?
> I'm not saying Kakashi will throw it, I am saying he will use it within a Taijutsu skirmish. Tsunade can't block any of Kakashi's attacks because they would go through her like a hot knife in butter, while on the other-hand Kakashi has the Sharingan which can predict her linear movements.



If he goes for a Taijutsu skirmish he will lose. Simple. If you think a Raiton kunai can do what 2 enormous Susanoo blades couldn't, I don't know what to say. And like I said, the split second he attacks leaves him open. Tsunade has shown insane reflexes and very good speed, just because you ignore the feats it doesn't mean they don't apply.



> Read it again, I was talking about when she starts to regenerates.
> 
> Read my entire post again. You missed where I said he can utilize clones as well, turning this into an advantage in CQC. He can also use Sharinga-Genjutsu to catch her off guard.



She can still fight with 2 blades in her, while regenerating so I fail to see your point.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but clone feints are useless, if you can't finish the opponent off. I doubt Kakashi's genjutsu will have any affect on Tsunade, who has probably the best chakra control in the manga based off the fact she's the best medical ninja in the world.


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## Fifth Hokage (Apr 5, 2013)

Tsunade should win with extreme difficuilty 5.5/10.
Kakashi has notable intelligence,speed, and ninjutsu, but he isn't durable enough to survive Tsunades punches.He mustn't  block her strikes... otherwise his arms will be broken.
Furthermore she has the reflexes to repel his attacks and if shes careless she can heal herself with Byakugo no Jutsu.The distance is 1000m so Kakashis ninjutsu will not reach her for the first minutes and Tsunade can summon Katsuyu, which crushes or melts the raiton clone.
Kakashi wins 9.5/10, if Kamui is unrestricted.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 5, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Kamui is restricted, if it wasn't, I would imagine that this thread would've been closed by now.



Oh. In that case, I think Tsunade has a shot at winning. Though the ridiculous distance still causes her problems.




> Because it applies nicely, just because part 1 feats are outdated doesn't mean we shouldn't use them, unless part 2 contradicts them of course. I don't think anything shown in part 2 refutes my point.
> 
> Just because Tsunade "tanks" damage whilst in Byakugou mode doesn't mean a RKB would be ineffective; when dispersed, it completely paralyzed Asura to the point that he was incapable of evading Choji's attack.



But in this case they _do_ contradict them. In the example you gave Tsunade was fatigued and physically hindered because Kabuto hit her near a vital organ and cut off her ability to breathe. Where as, in Part II Tsunade has had organs physically ripped out, without a liver, pancreas, stomach or intestines (all of which are found in the the areas Tsunade was _impaled_ in) there's no way her body would have functioned, but it still managed to. At that moment, Kabuto stunning her with a blow to the chest became old news.

Like I said already, paralysis is just one form of damage, Tsunade has taken so many forms that I would be surprised if paralysis stopped her in her tracks. Of course, I believe there is a relevant example of her escaping paralysis, that I can provide. Under normal circumstances having one's _spinal chord severed_ would cause paralysis and immediate immobilization, and yet Tsunade is still able to move around and fight. That is basically a more severe version of any generic paralysis effect caused by a raiton. I should also add that, Tsunade has been psychologically paralyzed because of a blood phobia, but used willpower to force her way out of it. i can't see her resilience, regeneration and will together being outdone by a paralysis-inflicting raiton.



> I don't think it's fair to say a raiton clone would be ineffective. Here we see Kakashi being stabbed by the Deva path, yet he fights on like its nothing, but this doesn't make him immune to techniques which are specifically designed to stun ones' movements.



It may be a decent distraction, but that is all it will be. For the reasons explained above, I don't believe she would be effected much.



> Let's just say that it wouldn't immobilize her for arguments sake (I believe it would hinder her obviously), it''d serve as a distraction at the very least,, allowing Kakashi to finish her off. Bunshin feint followed by a Raikiri/Raiden is an extremely likely scenario, even Uchiha Madara is not immune to these tactics.



Indeed, but I don't believe Kakashi could kill Tsunade with a Raikiri. If Haku could initially survive being impaled, then you can sure bet Tsunade would tank the damage and capitalize on Kakashi's close proximity. If he lopped her head off he would probably kill her, but as I would hope you would agree, given that Tsunade isn't a fodder or weak character, there is very little chance she would have her head torn off. Kakashi might be able to accomplish such a feat if Tsunade was slow, but she isn't. 

Raiden is a very linear attack, and when using it Kakashi and his clone cannot afford to jump, dodge, pivot etc. their only options are to run straight or to widen the gap between each other to increase the length of the Raikiri. I have confidence that someone with Tsunade's _evasive taijutsu style_, would be able to duck or evade it.



> and please remember that the RKB is capable of using jutsu like Raikiri. It even attempted to decapitate the Asura path, and would've succeeded had it not been due to shared vision.



Asura path moved around quickly because of the rocket boosters on its feet, I don't believe it had high reflexes without shared vision. 



> Actually, the only reason Naruto was able to land a hit on Itachi was due to Kakashi pinning him down.



And also due to the fact that Itachi didn't use a genjutsu on Naruto, that he didn't disperse into crows, that he didn't _out-_ _maneuver_ Kakashi's clone and escape his grasp etc. there are many things a full power Itachi would have done, but didn't. 



> Itachi later noted that they were physical replicas and only limited them to 30% chakra, this did not however affect their physical stats or intelligence.



Things like intelligence tend to stay the same, but I beg to differ with stats. The fact that he couldn't use higher level ninjutsu, or genjutsu, and that his taijutsu was of a seemingly lower level, make that evident imo.



> You're referring to this, correct? That was because his clones were clad in Susanoo, they could not initiate the Preta Path ability quick enough to absorb Oonoki's Jinton.
> 
> It seems that Susanoo makes affects the user's speed/reflexes; we see this again with Itachi
> .



I believe it effects their physical movement speed, but not their reflexes. Madara was able to switch from Susano'o to absorbing Onoki's jinton quick enough to prevent himself _taking damage_. Hell, the fact that each Kage was taking on 5 Madara's at once should suggest they weren't as strong as their original.



> It depends* where* he stabs her.
> 
> Kakashi happens to be a shinobi who likes to aim for the skull:
> 
> ...



Aiming for the head hardly ever works against high level opponents though, its so easy to raise ones arms in front of their face, or to just tilt their head sideways, especially whenever you're a taijutsu expert with a lot of experience. Its a jerk reaction to protect yourself when something comes flying at you. Usually the only time aiming for the head works is when the target is fodder, or they're being completely subdued and restricted of movement. 



> That's his problem, but the point here is that Kakashi set up the bunshin and went underground whilst Itachi was executing his jutsu. Kakashi's Raiton Kage bunshin is more than capable of diverting Tsunade's attention away; it succeeded in focusing on the two strongest paths of Pain, and had no problems getting behind one.
> 
> In other words, Tsunade will be fighting a bunshin (which she will think is Kakashi) then Kakashi pops up from underground, or he can always conceal himself and, act accordingly.



I don't doubt it can serve as a good distraction, but I know it will only serve as one until Kakashi chooses to sneak attack her with a Raikiri. I don't think Raikiri will be able to put her down so as long as she has Byakugou active, or can use Creation Rebirth. 



> I did state that Pain didn't detect Kakashi being underground until the latter actually made an attack. Tsunade dodging an underground strike is plausible, but evading it when she is being occupied by a bunshin? I doubt it.



True. Though, I think we should factor in Katsuyu here. Overwhelming Tsunade with bunshins wouldn't be a factor whenever the slug can split into hundreds, or even thousands of divisions. It is plausible that Tsunade would be caught in a Raikiri/Bunshin feint at least once, but she'll learn from her mistakes and use her slug as a means of covering her. Unlike with Madara's Susano'o clones, Kakashi's bunshins have a lot more diversity in their arsenals. It wouldn't be as simple as tanking their sword blows and throwing counters, so the slugs assistance would be needed in this instance, imo. With Katsuyu on the field, Kakashi would be completely outnumbered.




> Attacking in unison with them does not make her comparable to Ei: look here, this is even more of a "concrete feat"
> 
> _taking damage_
> _taking damage_
> ...



There's no doubt there are inconsistencies when it comes to speed (and just about everything else in the manga) however, there really isn't any reason to rub off Tsunade's feat as being one as well. It is completely plausible for Tsunade to be as fast as Ei and perhaps faster than Onoki. After all, the Godaime was never referred to as slow, that was something readers decided to conclude on the basis that she wasn't a top tier speedster. 

Base Ei was called fast by a Zetsu clone, while Akatsuchi noted that Onoki was impossible to keep up with in mid-air. These are characters who aren't particularly fast themselves, Ei and Onoki being faster than them is obvious (even if they aren't as fast as Kakashi). There's nothing dubious about Tsunade being comparable to to them in speed. The fact that Tsunade could be seen reacting to Madara's attacks before Onoki, Ei or any other Kage stands as a testament of her speed [1]



> Tsunade is not slow, but she's noticeably slower than Kakashi, and while her reflexes are decent, it's nothing compared to the *Sharingan*.



I agree, I just don't think Tsunade is so much slower that she can be repeatedly blitzed. 



> But you know, I've debated Tsunade's speed countless times, so I digress.



Fair enough.​​


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## joshhookway (Apr 5, 2013)

Fifth Hokage said:


> Tsunade should win with extreme difficuilty 5.5/10.
> Kakashi has notable intelligence,speed, and ninjutsu, but he isn't durable enough to survive Tsunades punches.He mustn't  block her strikes... otherwise his arms will be broken.
> *Furthermore she has the reflexes to repel his attacks *and if shes careless she can heal herself with Byakugo no Jutsu.The distance is 1000m so Kakashis ninjutsu will not reach her for the first minutes and Tsunade can summon Katsuyu, which crushes or melts the raiton clone.
> Kakashi wins 9.5/10, if Kamui is unrestricted.



Remember that Tsunade is slower than part 1 Kabuto. Kakashi has the sharingan as well. Kakashi should be able to dodge all of Tsunade's attacks.


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## Fifth Hokage (Apr 5, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Kakashi should be able to dodge all of Tsunade's attacks.


She managed to hit Orochimaru,who is very fast.(databook Speed:4.5)
Furthermore she defeated one Rinnegan/Sharingan Moku Bunshin.


joshhookway said:


> Remember that Tsunade is slower than part 1 Kabuto.


.
Thats debatable in my opinion.He couldn't avoid Ranshinsou and a few hits


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 5, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Remember that Tsunade is slower than part 1 Kabuto. Kakashi has the sharingan as well. Kakashi should be able to dodge all of Tsunade's attacks.



Yet her recent feats show she's fast enough to move a further distance to reach Madara than a lightened V2 A did at the same time, punch Madara's right side into oblivion before he can do anything, and bat away 5 fireballs before any of the other Kages can react. Nice try though.


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## joshhookway (Apr 5, 2013)

Fifth Hokage said:


> She managed to hit Orochimaru,who is very fast.(databook Speed:4.5)
> Furthermore she defeated one Rinnegan/Sharingan Moku Bunshin.


Orochimaru was crippled then. Tsunade did not really do any serious damage either.




> Thats debatable in my opinion.He couldn't avoid Ranshinsou and a few hits


Kabuto could caught off guard because he though Tsunade couldn't move. Kabuto also wasn't trying to kill. In a real fight, Kabuto would have won.


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## bleakwinter (Apr 5, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Orochimaru was crippled then. Tsunade did not really do any serious damage either.


Tsunade had also come out of retirement and had just overcame a fear of blood. Orochimaru had no arms, but I don't see how that hampers his movement speed (Which is the relevant factor in her being able to strike him). Tsunade did do serious damage. In fact, her punch left him too crippled to continue fighting and made him flee. Either way, Orochimaru isn't a good litmus test for durability either, as he's someone who can survive being split in half. Kakashi will die if Tsunade punches him. 



> Kabuto could caught off guard because he though Tsunade couldn't move. Kabuto also wasn't trying to kill. In a real fight, Kabuto would have won.



Kakashi was similarly caught off guard in a comparable scenario against kakuzu, which resulted in him getting kicked into a tree (1). Bottom line: Kakashi isn't above being caught off guard. In a real fight, Tsunade would have won against Kabuto (Him exploiting her fear of blood because he couldn't overcome her with Chakra scalpel should make that self-evident). She did not use her Yin Seal versus Kabuto at all (Something that would make Chakra scalpel, his only method of offense at the time, totally ineffective). In addition, she could use almost every single Jutsu that Kabuto could at the time (except for his corpse Jutsu). She can use Chakra scalpel without hand seals (2) . Her Yin Seal regeneration is better than Kabuto's regeneration . She also has monstrous strength, which he doesn't have.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 5, 2013)

@joshhookway

Orochimaru had no arms, that doesn't mean he moved around any slower.

And Kabuto had a 3.5 in speed, he took soldier pills that then boosted his speed, and even then a rusty Tsunade was able to dodge his attacks. The only attacks Kabuto landed were ones Tsunade either ran into herself, or ones where she was immobilized first. 

Besides, In Part II she keeps up with Base Ei and Onoki, so your dated Part I feats mean nothing.​​


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> @joshhookway
> 
> Orochimaru had no arms, that doesn't mean he moved around any slower.
> 
> ...



Soldier pills only increase stamina. If it was said they increase speed can you post the link.

And Kakashi is faster than base A and Oonoki. Kakashi wins with RKB+Raikiri combo. Tsunade's not escaping it.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Soldier pills only increase stamina. If it was said they increase speed can you post the link.



After Kiba took soldier pills his chakra was increased to the point that he could move around a lot faster [1] After all, high speed _uses up more chakra_.



> And Kakashi is faster than base A and Oonoki. Kakashi wins with RKB+Raikiri combo. Tsunade's not escaping it.



And yes, he is. Does that mean that Base Ei and Onoki aren't fast shinobi? Nope, they are pretty fast. Anyway, I've discussed all this already with Santoryu, if you want to challenge me, go back and read my argument.​​


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> After Kiba took soldier pills his chakra was increased to the point that he could move around a lot faster [1] After all, high speed _uses up more chakra_.​




You showed nothing. Kiba was already faster than Naruto and blitzed him. Then Akamaru joined and made it worse. No increase in speed there. And Sasuke was getting tired because he wasn't used to it. If I go and run a mile I'm going to be tired, but if I train it for then I get less and less tired. Neither of those show how it increases speed.



> And yes, he is. Does that mean that Base Ei and Onoki aren't fast shinobi? Nope, they are pretty fast. Anyway, I've discussed all this already with Santoryu, if you want to challenge me, go back and read my argument.


​
Kakashi is faster, better taijutsu and sharingan. I don't see how see gets the better of him but if she does then we all know it's going to be a RKB and it ends there.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 5, 2013)

*Restrictions: Kamui*

Yeah...

BL Tsunade at this distance might summon to unleash her full arsenal, in which case Kakashi can't put down an invincible boss summon and fight Tsunade.  Or she rage runs straight at him, and he spends lots of chakra shooting water dragons and giant vortexes and wolves to try and kill her, since he wouldn't want to risk close range against super strength.  

But Kakashi's long ranged attacks are useless at killing her, and he needs to get close to conceivably hurt her, and he'll already have wasted chakra against someone who takes hours to get tired.  So if he does that, they're too even in taijutsu for him to land his original technique the way he would need more times than not, without getting hit or countered.

So Tsunade wins with high diff because Kakashi never gives easy fights.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Restrictions: Kamui*
> 
> Yeah...
> 
> ...



Kakashi with manga knowledge wasting jutsu and chakra? And not using a bunshin? This is IC Kakashi and he never wastes a jutsu and will bunshin feint Tsunade and that's where she dies.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> You showed nothing. Kiba was already faster than Naruto and blitzed him. Then Akamaru joined and made it worse. No increase in speed there. And Sasuke was getting tired because he wasn't used to it. If I go and run a mile I'm going to be tired, but if I train it for then I get less and less tired. Neither of those show how it increases speed.



You're wrong. Using soldier pills increases ones chakra reserves massively, and as Asuma noted, Kiba was _' releasing the bodies chakra and attacking like a wild beast '_ in order to inflict damage. Releasing ones chakra in bursts like that is exactly how one executes high levels of speed [1] If the pills had no effect on his physical performance, he wouldn't have taken them - the same can be said for Kabuto, who only took the pills to make up for his lack of taijutsu skill. The one time Kiba blitzed Naruto he was completely unprepared. If Kiba had truely felt that he could repeatedly hit Naruto without soldier pills, then he would have done so.

My point was that using high levels of speed uses up a lot of chakra, even Lee - who is used to it, admits this. Hence, increasing ones chakra can allow them to abuse speed bursts more.​​


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> You're wrong. Using soldier pills increases ones chakra reserves massively, and as Asuma noted, Kiba was _' releasing the bodies chakra and attacking like a wild beast '_ in order to inflict damage. Releasing ones chakra in bursts like that is exactly how one executes high levels of speed [1] If the pills had no effect on his physical performance, he wouldn't have taken them - the same can be said for Kabuto, who only took the pills to make up for his lack of taijutsu skill. The one time Kiba blitzed Naruto he was completely unprepared. If Kiba had truely felt that he could repeatedly hit Naruto without soldier pills, then he would have done so.​




That would mean something if Kiba hadn't done it before the pill though. He looks the exact same and moves the exact same. Naruto or anyone said that Kiba got faster. Kiba might have taken the pill for his jutsu's, but it showed no speed increase.



> My point was that using high levels of speed uses up a lot of chakra, even Lee - who is used to it, admits this. Hence, increasing ones chakra can allow them to abuse speed bursts more.


​
More=/=quality. Part 1 Naruto has way more chakra then Itachi but Itaqchi is leagues above him in speed. Again Kiba was never noted or shown to increase in speed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi with manga knowledge wasting jutsu and chakra? And not using a bunshin? This is IC Kakashi and he never wastes a jutsu and will bunshin feint Tsunade and that's where she dies.



Does Kakashi know about Byako and SS nullifying his attacks?  I didn't think he had knowledge.  

I don't buy a bunshin faint doing anything notable.  I doubt she'd be rendered hapless by a raiton bunshin stun considering her knock off relative Yamato could power through a chidori direct flow.  It was also a continuous flow, as opposed to Kakashi's shock and stop.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2013)

And Kabuto didn't use a soldier pill to up his speed. He did it for a jutsu.  And he was also never noted to increase in speed.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Does Kakashi know about Byako and SS nullifying his attacks?  I didn't think he had knowledge.
> 
> I don't buy a bunshin faint doing anything notable.  I doubt she'd be rendered hapless by a raiton bunshin stun considering her knock off relative Yamato could power through a chidori direct flow.  It was also a continuous flow, as opposed to Kakashi's shock and stop.



Kakashi knew of amaterasu and susanoo and had never seen either. I highly HIGHLY doubt he don't know about a jutsu Tsunade has used on multiple occasions. And him and Jiraiya have shown to exchange info on subjects including Tsunade's breast so I'm sure he does.

And Sasuke numbs the body while Kakashi paralyzes it. Two different things. When you're leg is numb you can move it but if it's paralyzed then you can't even make it twitch.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Soldier pills only increase stamina. If it was said they increase speed can you post the link.
> 
> And Kakashi is faster than base A and Oonoki. Kakashi wins with RKB+Raikiri combo. Tsunade's not escaping it.



No he doesn't. Godaime Tsunade was wrong. Look again and you'll see that this was a V2 A, lightened by Onoki. Tsunade has shown herself to be able to move a  than them to reach Madara at the same time. Kakashi is not faster than them. No matter how to try to slice it, Tsunade is not slow.

RKB and Raikiri will not kill Tsunade, and it's likely she'll lull him into a false sense of security by taking the hit. She often takes hits in close combat in order to launch counterattacks, and her counterattack on Kakashi will kill him.



IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi with manga knowledge wasting jutsu and chakra? And not using a bunshin? This is IC Kakashi and he never wastes a jutsu and will bunshin feint Tsunade and that's where she dies.



This contradicts itself. He never wastes chakra, yet starts off with a RKB? Either way, there's no way he can beat Tsunade without wasting chakra as until Byakugou runs out, he can't kill her. And Tsunade's chakra reserves are much bigger than Kakashi's.



IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi knew of amaterasu and susanoo and had never seen either. I highly HIGHLY doubt he don't know about a jutsu Tsunade has used on multiple occasions. And him and Jiraiya have shown to exchange info on subjects including Tsunade's breast so I'm sure he does.
> 
> And Sasuke numbs the body while Kakashi paralyzes it. Two different things. When you're leg is numb you can move it but if it's paralyzed then you can't even make it twitch.



Jiraiya just brought Tsunade's breasts up in random conversation, I doubt they were exchanging info. 

It's hard to say whether Raikiri will have any effect on Tsunade because Tsunade has had 2 Susanoo blades impaled through her spine, and 1 Susanoo blade go straight through her spine, which should paralyze a normal ninja since it stops the flow of electricity to the nerves, but she carried on fighting without any trouble. So, I would assume it wouldn't paralyze her. After all, Kakuzu wasn't paralyzed by Raikiri, and proceeded to counterattack. The only difference will be that Tsunade's counterattack will be fatal.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> That would mean something if Kiba hadn't done it before the pill though. He looks the exact same and moves the exact same. Naruto or anyone said that Kiba got faster. Kiba might have taken the pill for his jutsu's, but it showed no speed increase.



I'm just going to repeat myself here since my point still stands. If the pills had no effect on his physical performance, he wouldn't have taken them. If Kiba had truly felt that he could repeatedly hit Naruto without soldier pills, then he would have done so. Furthermore, Naruto notes that he could _' barely get away '_, even whenever he sends all his chakra to his feet like Sakura did in the scan I linked you. Its also pretty obvious that Akamaru has had a speed increase, given how slow he was prior.




> More=/=quality. Part 1 Naruto has way more chakra then Itachi but Itaqchi is leagues above him in speed. Again Kiba was never noted or shown to increase in speed.



Itachi is faster without having to use chakra explosively like Kiba does. Releasing your chakra the way Kiba or Sakura does gives you quick bursts of speed, its not the same as Itachi naturally being able to move around quickly.



IchLiebe said:


> And Kabuto didn't use a soldier pill to up his speed. He did it for a jutsu.  And he was also never noted to increase in speed.



That doesn't make any sense. Kabuto was perfectly capable of using chakra scalpels of the same scale and power without taking a pill [1] [2] It seems fairly obvious that since Kabuto said ' though I'm not that strong with taijutsu ' right before popping a pill, it was in order to increase his chakra levels to the point that he _could_ compete with Tsunade in close range. With high chakra levels he would never be exhausted, and could move around in quick bursts of speed (like Kiba).​​


narut0ninjafan said:


> No he doesn't. Godaime Tsunade was wrong. Look again and you'll see that this was a V2 A, lightened by Onoki. Tsunade has shown herself to be able to move a  than them to reach Madara at the same time. Kakashi is not faster than them. No matter how to try to slice it, Tsunade is not slow.



I wasn't referring to that instance, I was talking of when Tsunade attacks Madara in unison with base Ei after being transported by Mabui. I should add, in the instance you refer to, it was Onoki Tsunade outsped, not V2 Ei. V2 Ei is much faster than Tsunade, it isn't possible for her to outspeed him, especially whenever Onoki is boosting his speed even further. Though, Tsunade was still able to attack in unison with V2 Ei, which is an impressive feat.​​


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> No he doesn't. Godaime Tsunade was wrong. Look again and you'll see that this was a V2 A, lightened by Onoki. Tsunade has shown herself to be able to move a  than them to reach Madara at the same time. Kakashi is not faster than them. No matter how to try to slice it, Tsunade is not slow.



Tsunade was closer to Madara as she had physically hit his susanoo panels earlier. And Tsunade is no where near v2 A speed.



> RKB and Raikiri will not kill Tsunade, and it's likely she'll lull him into a false sense of security by taking the hit. She often takes hits in close combat in order to launch counterattacks, and her counterattack on Kakashi will kill him.



Raikiri to the head kills her no matter what.



> This contradicts itself. He never wastes chakra, yet starts off with a RKB? Either way, there's no way he can beat Tsunade without wasting chakra as until Byakugou runs out, he can't kill her. And Tsunade's chakra reserves are much bigger than Kakashi's.



Bunshin feinting isn't wasting chakra. Tsunade has never shown to be able to heal brain cells and has shown to have limits so if she takes a raikiri to the head she dies.



> Jiraiya just brought Tsunade's breasts up in random conversation, I doubt they were exchanging info.
> 
> It's hard to say whether Raikiri will have any effect on Tsunade because Tsunade has had 2 Susanoo blades impaled through her spine, and 1 Susanoo blade go straight through her spine, which should paralyze a normal ninja since it stops the flow of electricity to the nerves, but she carried on fighting without any trouble. So, I would assume it wouldn't paralyze her. After all, Kakuzu wasn't paralyzed by Raikiri, and proceeded to counterattack. The only difference will be that Tsunade's counterattack will be fatal.



They have exchanged info on multiple occasions. 

Raikiri isn't meant to paralyze but Raiton Kage Bunshin is. And Tsunade can take that attack, but getting hit by basically a stun gun is a different story.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm just going to repeat myself here since my point still stands. If the pills had no effect on his physical performance, he wouldn't have taken them. If Kiba had truly felt that he could repeatedly hit Naruto without soldier pills, then he would have done so. Furthermore, Naruto notes that he could _' barely get away '_, even whenever he sends all his chakra to his feet like Sakura did in the scan I linked you. Its also pretty obvious that Akamaru has had a speed increase, given how slow he was prior.​




Except he took the pill and then instantly activated a jutsu. Does it not look like the soldier pill was used for that jutsu. Like Sasuke using CS2 for that stronger katon, more chakra opens up the possibility for more jutsu. But Naruto couldn't get away from just Kiba attacking. Then Akamaru joins in and Naruto says that. That doesn't show an increase in speed, just more people attacking. And Akamaru had already tagged Naruto so he wasn't shown to be slow at all.



> Itachi is faster without having to use chakra explosively like Kiba does. Releasing your chakra the way Kiba or Sakura does gives you quick bursts of speed, its not the same as Itachi naturally being able to move around quickly.



But there's nothing pointing to Kiba getting faster. Before he took the pill and after he took the pill, he released his chakra exactly the same. The only difference is after the pill Kiba activated a jutsu. And it does give you a quick bursts of speed but from the people who have used it, neither have shown to get any faster. Both took it then instantly activated a jutsu.



> That doesn't make any sense. Kabuto was perfectly capable of using chakra scalpels of the same scale and power without taking a pill [1] [2] It seems fairly obvious that since Kabuto said ' though I'm not that strong with taijutsu ' right before popping a pill, it was in order to increase his chakra levels to the point that he _could_ compete with Tsunade in close range. With high chakra levels he would never be exhausted, and could move around in quick bursts of speed (like Kiba).


​
In part 2 yes, part 1 no. Remember that there is a 2 year gap between them. 

The jutsu he activated required taijutsu. That makes sense. Orochimaru says,"it's time to use that." Kabuto says,"even though I'm not good with taijutsu" and then takes a soldier pill and activates a jutsu that calls for it. Does it not look like people are taking these pills for the jutsu's and not to keep up?


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Tsunade was closer to Madara as she had physically hit his susanoo panels earlier. And Tsunade is no where near v2 A speed.



Actually, Tsunade was  from Madara. The exchange goes Tsunade punches him, sending his Susanoo flying, and he uses a katon, which is countered by Mei's suiton. From there, a lightened V2 A and Tsunade attack simultaneouly. I'm not saying she's faster, but she clearly can keep up, so trying to say Kakashi is too fast to get hit and will just blitz her again and again is false.



> Raikiri to the head kills her no matter what.
> 
> Bunshin feinting isn't wasting chakra. Tsunade has never shown to be able to heal brain cells and has shown to have limits so if she takes a raikiri to the head she dies.



I would say Byakugou could heal her, but even if it couldn't, he's not going to land a hit on the head, because it's much easier to dodge a headshot. Obito did it multiple times against Kakashi by simply moving his head slightly. Given Tsunade's insane reflexes, he's not going to land a headshot anyway, although I believe Byakugou would heal her from it.

And the limit I think you're talking about is chakra.



> They have exchanged info on multiple occasions.



To do with Akatsuki and Naruto, not Tsunade, but I don't think this is relevant.



> Raikiri isn't meant to paralyze but Raiton Kage Bunshin is. And Tsunade can take that attack, but getting hit by basically a stun gun is a different story.



Again, Tsunade in Byakugou mode isn't a normal ninja. Hell, Tsunade in base mode isn't a normal ninja. She has shown herself to be able to fight when normal ninjas should be incapacitated, so I still don't buy that a RKB would stun her, and it certainly wouldn't stun her for long enough for Kakashi to land a headshot, which as I said earlier, requires very little movement to dodge.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 6, 2013)

Kakashi solos with superior ninjutsu arsenal.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi solos with superior ninjutsu arsenal.



Which will have no effect on Byakugou. You tried.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Which will have no effect on Byakugou. You tried.


Tsunade cannot regrow another head.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Tsunade cannot regrow another head.



Kakashi can't survive having half his body blown out.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 6, 2013)

How is she going to hit him?


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## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

With her fists.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> How is she going to hit him?





Komnenos said:


> With her fists.



Or with a kick. Your choice.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 6, 2013)

LOL, Kakashi predicts with sharingan and lops her head off before she has a chance to react.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 6, 2013)

We saw bloodlusted Tsunade once. Against Kabuto and Oro. It didn't end well for her. 
Kakashi already holds a significant advantage in battle intelligence area. Having Tsunade go full batshit smashy-smashy helps him even more. Throw in starting distance. Kakashi with prep, time to think vs raging Tsunade with limited to CQC offense. 

Tsunade didn't summon Katsuyu against Oro+Kabuto when she was fully bloodlusted, only when she became calm with Naruto needing medical attention. She didn't summon Katsuyu against Madara either. She ain't summoning Katsuyu against Kakashi if she is fighting bloodlusted imo. Bloodlusted=I want to smash your head off. 

Tsunade is going to bullrush into Kakashi's trap, activate Byakugo too soon and either run out regen after excessive fighting or get her head removed by Raikiri/Raiden(Or cut in half like against Madara... which she didn't regenerate from. Kakashi won't be sitting idly and allow her to summon after that). Speed difference, Sharingan precog, bunshins, doton, raiton's paralyzing properties, solid ranged ninjutsu. Full package 

ALL HAIL KAKASHI


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> LOL, Kakashi predicts with sharingan and lops her head off before she has a chance to react.



I've already shown in great depth why that won't work, so I suggest you read the previous pages. Madara's Sharingan didn't predict Tsunade's hits in time to react. In fact, when has the Sharingan prediction ever worked on a top tier shinobi? Kakashi has been hit multiple times before even with his Sharingan prediction. Nice try though.

EDIT:



alex payne said:


> We saw bloodlusted Tsunade once. Against Kabuto and Oro. It didn't end well for her.
> Kakashi already holds a significant advantage in battle intelligence area. Having Tsunade go full batshit smashy-smashy helps him even more. Throw in starting distance. Kakashi with prep, time to think vs raging Tsunade with limited to CQC offense.



Part I feats remain Part I feats. Tsunade with her part II feats would have much more success, even using her part I strategy. I really don't see how the distance helps Kakashi. Sooner or later he will have to get close, because none of his ranged jutsu is going to help against Tsunade.



> Tsunade didn't summon Katsuyu against Oro+Kabuto when she was fully bloodlusted, only when she became calm with Naruto needing medical attention. She didn't summon Katsuyu against Madara either. She ain't summoning Katsuyu against Kakashi if she is fighting bloodlusted imo. Bloodlusted=I want to smash your head off.
> 
> Tsunade is going to bullrush into Kakashi's trap, activate Byakugo too soon and either run out regen after excessive fighting or get her head removed by Raikiri/Raiden(Or cut in half like against Madara... which she didn't regenerate from. Kakashi won't be sitting idly and allow her to summon after that). Speed difference, Sharingan precog, bunshins, doton, raiton's paralyzing properties, solid ranged ninjutsu. Full package



Byakugou wasn't active when she got cut in half. It lasted all day against Susanoo clones. I doubt she will lose a stamina battle against Kakashi. She doesn't even need Katsuyu anyway. Sharingan precognition as I said previously in this post is useless, bunshins will only serve a minor distraction, doton is useless too, raiton's paralyzing properties MAY work, but if getting blades through her spine doesn't paralyze her I doubt a raiton would. Ranged ninjutsus just aren't going to work against Tsunade's Byakugou.

The Kakashi fans are really playing on this speed difference, but I've already stated numerous facts with evidence to back it up, why I'm confident Tsunade will get the hit.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> I've already shown in great depth why that won't work, so I suggest you read the previous pages. Madara's Sharingan didn't predict Tsunade's hits in time to react. In fact, when has the Sharingan prediction ever worked on a top tier shinobi? Kakashi has been hit multiple times before even with his Sharingan prediction. Nice try though.


Madara was fighting 5 different kages and taking it easy, excuse him for not being in a hurry...lol.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> The Kakashi fans are really playing on this speed difference, but I've already stated numerous facts with evidence to back it up, why I'm confident Tsunade will get the hit.



Oh, she will get a hit. Raiton Kagebunshin


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## FlamingRain (Apr 6, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Tsunade didn't summon Katsuyu against Oro+Kabuto when she was fully bloodlusted, only when she became calm with Naruto needing medical attention. She didn't summon Katsuyu against Madara either. She ain't summoning Katsuyu against Kakashi if she is fighting bloodlusted imo. Bloodlusted=I want to smash your head off.



Against Kabuto and Orochimaru the had hemophobia; she couldn't summon if she wanted to, but as soon as she got her crap together she was summoning Katsuyu.

Against someone with the ability to change the landscape like Madara, Katsuyu would have only been a hindrance, as she would have taken up too much space and made it harder to dodge his attacks.

Not saying she *will* summon Katsuyu at the start but it doesn't need to be ruled out.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Madara was fighting 5 different kages and taking it easy, excuse him for not being in a hurry...lol.



It's canon that Tsunade cornered Madara leaving him no choice but to use a wood clone, which makes it pretty clear she blitzed him. Don't try to discredit her feats like that, it only damages your credibility.



alex payne said:


> Oh, she will get a hit. Raiton Kagebunshin



And if blades through her spine don't paralyze her, I still can't see why a RKB will paralyze her. She will have plenty of chances to hit the real Kakashi when he appears to Raikiri her, which will have no effect.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Against Kabuto and Orochimaru the had hemophobia; she couldn't summon if she wanted to, but as soon as she got her crap together she was summoning Katsuyu.


 Good point about hemophobia. But I doubt that she would lose herself to just one minor drop of blood. Kabuto's bleeding was excessive. 



FlamingRain said:


> Against someone with the ability to change the landscape like Madara, Katsuyu would have only been a hindrance, as she would have taken up too much space and made it harder to dodge his attacks.


  Katsuyu can reduce herself to be pocket-sized. 



FlamingRain said:


> Not saying she *will* summon Katsuyu at the start but it doesn't need to be ruled out.


I ain't ruling it out either. Just that the probability is slim given the mindset.



narut0ninjafan said:


> It's canon that Tsunade cornered Madara leaving him no choice but to use a wood clone, which makes it pretty clear she blitzed him. Don't try to discredit her feats like that, it only damages your credibility.



Madara not bothering to move. Madara in the air, 3-way combination attack.. Madara leaving Mokubunshin to be hit. To make a point. She didn't blitz him. Which is evident by the fact that Raikage wasn't able to blitz him. And Madara states that Tsunade is slower than him. She rushed right into a trap. Same way she'll "blitz" Raiton KB. 




narut0ninjafan said:


> And if blades through her spine don't paralyze her, I still can't see why a RKB will paralyze her. She will have plenty of chances to hit the real Kakashi when he appears to Raikiri her, which will have no effect.


 Lol Kishimoto and anatomy. RKB was able to paralyze reanimated corpse that moves via chakra alone.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Madara not bothering to move. Madara in the air, 3-way combination attack.. Madara leaving Mokubunshin to be hit. To make a point. She didn't blitz him. Which is evident by the fact that Raikage wasn't able to blitz him. And Madara states that Tsunade is slower than him. She rushed right into a trap. Same way she'll "blitz" Raiton KB.





Madara didn't bother moving because he underestimated Tsunade's strength and thought "if Raikage can't break Susanoo, I doubt Tsunade can" and was wrong. The combination attack you do realize was from Tsunade sending Madara's Susanoo flying with her punch, which she then followed up to kick in unison with a lightened V2 A despite being further away from Madara, meaning she caught up. So that only helps my argument that Tsunade isn't slow and can keep up with the fastest characters in the manga, who were given a further speed boost by being lightened

Tsunade cornered him into using a wood clone just to be safe, which has been canonically stated. If he could've dodged her next punch he would have since he was trying to beat them easily. Just face the facts, Tsunade blitzed him, she's not slow.



> Lol Kishimoto and anatomy. RKB was able to paralyze reanimated corpse that moves via chakra alone.



No. They are controlled by chakra but they use human sacrifices to make the corpses so your point doesn't really make sense. Again, Tsunade is not your average ninja. Her resilience and ability to keep fighting despite having injuries that would normally incapacitate other ninjas is ridiculously good.

Really, if the only way you guys can convince yourself that Kakashi can win without his PNJ haxxed Kamui is by using Tsunade's part I feats and discrediting all her part II feats and stomping around and saying baseless one-liners like "she'll never hit him, she's too slow!" despite me showing how fast she can be and how fast her reflexes are, it's pretty clear you're losing. You have to do better.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Actually, Tsunade was  from Madara. The exchange goes Tsunade punches him, sending his Susanoo flying, and he uses a katon, which is countered by Mei's suiton. From there, a lightened V2 A and Tsunade attack simultaneouly. I'm not saying she's faster, but she clearly can keep up, so trying to say Kakashi is too fast to get hit and will just blitz her again and again is false.



No she wasn't because she was previously on the attack and had closed the distance. A went all the way behind Madara and attacked. So A had way more distance to gain in a shorter time. And attacking with someone doesn't give them that speed close to it. You assume Tsunade went up to A's level when it's clear A went down to match Tsunade.



> I would say Byakugou could heal her, but even if it couldn't, he's not going to land a hit on the head, because it's much easier to dodge a headshot. Obito did it multiple times against Kakashi by simply moving his head slightly. Given Tsunade's insane reflexes, he's not going to land a headshot anyway, although I believe Byakugou would heal her from it.
> 
> And the limit I think you're talking about is chakra.



I'm talking about healing limits. She can't heal chakra cells, she had a 50/50 chance at healing Lee's body. Brain cells isn't going to be healed. She will be paralyzed but I'll get to that later on.



> To do with Akatsuki and Naruto, not Tsunade, but I don't think this is relevant.



Except they did talk about Tsunade. 



> Again, Tsunade in Byakugou mode isn't a normal ninja. Hell, Tsunade in base mode isn't a normal ninja. She has shown herself to be able to fight when normal ninjas should be incapacitated, so I still don't buy that a RKB would stun her, and it certainly wouldn't stun her for long enough for Kakashi to land a headshot, which as I said earlier, requires very little movement to dodge.



Kakashi isn't a normal ninja. And he hasn't shown to have paralysis protection. Unless you have a scan I haven't seen? If you don't then a RKB stuns her as Byakugou only heals damage, not protect against it.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> The Mokubunshin was made after the combo attack just so he could be safe. That is to say, Tsunade cornered him into doing that just to be safe. If he could've dodged her next punch he would have since he was trying to beat them easily. Just face the facts, Tsunade blitzed him, she's not slow.



Facts:
Raikage is faster than Tsunade(statements, feats)
Madara was able to guard himself against Raikage(feat)
Susano activation is faster than moving/guarding(feats)

You here are trying to prove that Madara's MB was blitzed. By someone _canonically slower_ than a person who was _unable_ to blitz Madara. You should stop. And think.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> No she wasn't because she was previously on the attack and had closed the distance. A went all the way behind Madara and attacked. So A had way more distance to gain in a shorter time. And attacking with someone doesn't give them that speed close to it. You assume Tsunade went up to A's level when it's clear A went down to match Tsunade.



Look at the picture I linked. Tsunade is not in the panel, A is. So Tsunade was further away, and covered the distance in the same time it took A to cover the smaller distance.

I don't know what to say at the claim that A went slower to give Tsunade time to catch up. They were fighting against Madara and you think he held back? Onoki even lightened him to speed him up.



> I'm talking about healing limits. She can't heal chakra cells, she had a 50/50 chance at healing Lee's body. Brain cells isn't going to be healed. She will be paralyzed but I'll get to that later on.



Again, headshots are very easy to dodge, as Obito has shown, which is why ninjas usually aim for the body.



> Except they did talk about Tsunade.



Not really relevant to my argument, but apart from the comment about Tsunade's breasts, what were they talking about? I doubt they were discussing Tsunade's combat tactics in depth.



> Kakashi isn't a normal ninja. And he hasn't shown to have paralysis protection. Unless you have a scan I haven't seen? If you don't then a RKB stuns her as Byakugou only heals damage, not protect against it.



Well, I don't have a direct scan of her being protected from raiton paralysis, but Byakugou has allowed her to fight with blades through her spine, which should have paralyzed her. I don't know the details of how RKB paralyzes, but I would assume it does it by stopping the electrical signals of the nervous system that allow movement. Having a blade through the spine would have the same effect on a much larger scale. Yet Tsunade fought on. So I still think Tsunade would be able to move and fight on while paralyzed.  A base Tsunade could still fight and move quickly with her muscles torn up. And again, even if she's paralyzed (which I find unlikely) Kakashi still needs to finish her, something easier said than done if she has Byakugou.



alex payne said:


> Facts:
> Raikage is faster than Tsunade(statements, feats)
> Madara was able to guard himself against Raikage(feat)
> Susano activation is faster than moving/guarding(feats)
> ...



You say Susanoo activation is faster than moving/guarding. So surely he could've thrown a Susanoo up to give him some protection. Yet, she still hit him before he could do this, or anything in fact. I would call that a blitz.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Look at the picture I linked. Tsunade is not in the panel, A is. So Tsunade was further away, and covered the distance in the same time it took A to cover the smaller distance.
> 
> I don't know what to say at the claim that A went slower to give Tsunade time to catch up. They were fighting against Madara and you think he held back? Onoki even lightened him to speed him up.



But that doesn't mean anything. She didn't get there the same time A did. She got there slower than he did.



> Again, headshots are very easy to dodge, as Obito has shown, which is why ninjas usually aim for the body.



But she is going to be paralyzed.



> Not really relevant to my argument, but apart from the comment about Tsunade's breasts, what were they talking about? I doubt they were discussing Tsunade's combat tactics in depth.



Again, them talking about info on multiple occasions, Tsunade's main jutsu, and Kakashi knowing about jutsu no one in his time has seen shows. Kakashi knew what susanoo was when no one has used but decades before he was born. To say he don't have even a hint at Tsunade's jutsu's is ridiculous. Add that in with the 100 m and jutsu's he's going to get off, and his deducing skills, by the time she beats RKB then he already knows to aim for the head.



> Well, I don't have a direct scan of her being protected from raiton paralysis, but Byakugou has allowed her to fight with blades through her spine, which should have paralyzed her. I don't know the details of how RKB paralyzes, but I would assume it does it by stopping the electrical signals of the nervous system that allow movement. Having a blade through the spine would have the same effect on a much larger scale. Yet Tsunade fought on. So I still think Tsunade would be able to move and fight on while paralyzed.  A base Tsunade could still fight and move quickly with her muscles torn up. And again, even if she's paralyzed (which I find unlikely) Kakashi still needs to finish her, something easier said than done if she has Byakugou.



SHOULD. In Kishi's manga it didn't. But RKB DOES paralyze. And it fucks with the muscles and tightens them to the point where you can't move. Like someone being shot with a stun gun, taser or whatever. They get stiff and then fall down. And stabbed and stunned is two different things.

You say Susanoo activation is faster than moving/guarding. So surely he could've thrown a Susanoo up to give him some protection. Yet, she still hit him before he could do anything. I would call that a blitz.[/QUOTE]


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## PopoTime (Apr 6, 2013)

1000M and BL Tsunade?

She summons Katsuyu who then spams Acid across the crater, meaning if Kakashi hides underground, he's stuck there and if he doesnt hide he's fucked by the acid.

Kakashi has to retreat


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## Alex Payne (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> You say Susanoo activation is faster than moving/guarding. So surely he could've thrown a Susanoo up to give him some protection. Yet, she still hit him before he could do this, or anything in fact. I would call that a blitz.


You don't get it, do you? Madara allowed himself to be hit. So he could make a point about how awesome Hashirama was. Again.

If Raikage wasn't able to blitz him. What chances does Tsunade have? It was a trap. A simple trap.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> But that doesn't mean anything. She didn't get there the same time A did. She got there slower than he did.



If you look at this page they clearly attack at the same time because they both finished their strike at the same time. Unless A's simple karate chop takes longer to execute than a full blown kick, which I doubt.



> But she is going to be paralyzed.
> 
> Again, them talking about info on multiple occasions, Tsunade's main jutsu, and Kakashi knowing about jutsu no one in his time has seen shows. Kakashi knew what susanoo was when no one has used but decades before he was born. To say he don't have even a hint at Tsunade's jutsu's is ridiculous. Add that in with the 100 m and jutsu's he's going to get off, and his deducing skills, by the time she beats RKB then he already knows to aim for the head.
> 
> SHOULD. In Kishi's manga it didn't. But RKB DOES paralyze. And it fucks with the muscles and tightens them to the point where you can't move. Like someone being shot with a stun gun, taser or whatever. They get stiff and then fall down. And stabbed and stunned is two different things.



Even if he has knowledge though, I don't see it helping him anyway which is why I said it was irrelevant.

Again, dodging headshots is very easy for ninjas, and a simple duck will avoid it and leave the attacker open to counterattack, and Kakashi dies if this happens to him.

It didn't paralyze her because she's Tsunade, and she has Byakugou, not becaise this is a manga. I doubt a normal character in Naruto could take a blade through the spine and even move, let alone keep fighting. That's my point. If she's not paralyzed by something that should stop all passage of nervous information, I find it hard to believe stunning the muscles would work. 

Tsunade could still move and blitz Kabuto with her muscles cut up, she did the same to Orochimaru while being cut up and stabbed, she kept fighting after being impaled through the spine with blades multiple times, you get my point. Tsunade can keep on fighting, and I can't see how a RKB could stop her for long enough for Kakashi to get a headshot before she could even move her head slightly, when she could fight WHILE impaled through the spine.



alex payne said:


> You don't get it, do you? Madara allowed himself to be hit. So he could make a point about how awesome Hashirama was. Again.
> 
> If Raikage wasn't able to blitz him. What chances does Tsunade have? It was a trap. A simple trap.



You're the one that doesn't get it. Madara used the clone because it was his only option. Not as a trap. Tsunade saying that he could only survive by resorting to the clone makes it pretty clear it was a last resort, not a trap. I mean, it was stated in the fucking manga. How can I possibly spell it out to you clearer?


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> If you look at this page they clearly attack at the same time because they both finished their strike at the same time. Unless A's simple karate chop takes longer to execute than a full blown kick, which I doubt.



The page before A's karate chop had cracked susanoo before Tsunade even got there so no.



> Even if he has knowledge though, I don't see it helping him anyway which is why I said it was irrelevant.



Knowledge always helps Kakashi.



> Again, dodging headshots is very easy for ninjas, and a simple duck will avoid it and leave the attacker open to counterattack, and Kakashi dies if this happens to him.



And then she gets stunned.



> It didn't paralyze her because she's Tsunade, and she has Byakugou, not becaise this is a manga. I doubt a normal character in Naruto could take a blade through the spine and even move, let alone keep fighting. That's my point. If she's not paralyzed by something that should stop all passage of nervous information, I find it hard to believe stunning the muscles would work.
> 
> Tsunade could still move and blitz Kabuto with her muscles cut up, she did the same to Orochimaru while being cut up and stabbed, she kept fighting after being impaled through the spine with blades multiple times, you get my point. Tsunade can keep on fighting, and I can't see how a RKB could stop her for long enough for Kakashi to get a headshot before she could even move her head slightly, when she could fight WHILE impaled through the spine.



Byakugou heals the damage, RKB doesn't deal any damage but stuns. She could still fight because of Byakugou because that's it's purpose. 

I think she had bykagou activated then. And again it heals the damage while RKB deals 0 damage. It tightens the muscles to make it where you can't move. And 1 second would be enough for Kakashi who is faster than Tsunade and has sharingan. 

The spine thing doesn't matter as she could get the it, but RKB works in a whole different way. She has never shown to be resistant to being shocked.


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## joshhookway (Apr 6, 2013)

PopoTime said:


> 1000M and BL Tsunade?
> 
> She summons Katsuyu who then spams Acid across the crater, meaning if Kakashi hides underground, he's stuck there and if he doesnt hide he's fucked by the acid.
> 
> Kakashi has to retreat



Katsuya's acid is so slow that a giant snake could dodge it.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> The page before A's karate chop had cracked susanoo before Tsunade even got there so no.



But the panel didn't even show where Tsunade was so I don't see how you can claim so boldly Tsunade wasn't there attacking him too.



> Knowledge always helps Kakashi.
> 
> And then she gets stunned.
> 
> ...



If she's fighting while her spine's impaled, there would be a hole in the spine yet she still fought through that, which is why I still stand by my argument that a RKB wouldn't stun her. Hell she could still move while bisected and use chakra to summon. Tsunade is just on a different level of resilience, so I find it hard to believe a RKB would stun her, let alone long enough for Kakashi to land a hit before Tsunade can enough move her head slightly out of the way.

The amount she needs to move to dodge a headshot is so small. I believe that even if RKB did stun her (which I still doubt), it just wouldn't be enough to overcome her insane resilience and reflexes. What feats does the RKB have apart from stunning Asura path (who might actually be more susceptible to the RKB because he's made of metal)? We don't know how powerful the stunning attack is, how long is keeps opponents paralyzed. Will Kakashi have a chance to cover the distance between the real him and Tsunade in time before she can do anything even if he did stun her? I doubt it.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> You're the one that doesn't get it. Madara used the clone because it was his only option. Not as a trap. Tsunade saying that he could only survive by resorting to the clone makes it pretty clear it was a last resort, not a trap. I mean, it was stated in the fucking manga. How can I possibly spell it out to you clearer?


Madara was clearly shown the speed to either activate Susano or simply evade Tsunade if he wanted. 

It was stated in the manga that Madara was fucking around. They said "hurr durr we forced you to use a bunshin" and Madara proceeds to troll them with "5 vs 1". You are completely misinterpreting the fight. 

I ask you this - is Tsunade faster than Raikage?


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> But the panel didn't even show where Tsunade was so I don't see how you can claim so boldly Tsunade wasn't there attacking him too.



Because she wasn't shown till the next panel.



> If she's fighting while her spine's impaled, there would be a hole in the spine yet she still fought through that, which is why I still stand by my argument that a RKB wouldn't stun her. Hell she could still move while bisected and use chakra to summon. Tsunade is just on a different level of resilience, so I find it hard to believe a RKB would stun her, let alone long enough for Kakashi to land a hit before Tsunade can enough move her head slightly out of the way.



But it's different no matter what you say. The body in Naruto is different then ours. They have a different nervous system and everything. Hiruzen was stabbed in the back and could still move, Madara was this chapter and they could still move and talk. A RKB will stab her and don't you think that that split second is what KAkashi is going to be waiting for. He also has sharingan to predict that small movement, as shown in Kakashi gaiden.



> The amount she needs to move to dodge a headshot is so small. I believe that even if RKB did stun her (which I still doubt), it just wouldn't be enough to overcome her insane resilience and reflexes. What feats does the RKB have apart from stunning Asura path (who might actually be more susceptible to the RKB because he's made of metal)? We don't know how powerful the stunning attack is, how long is keeps opponents paralyzed. Will Kakashi have a chance to cover the distance between the real him and Tsunade in time before she can do anything even if he did stun her? I doubt it.



But it won't work. She hasn't shown to be resilient to any type of attack like a RKB. She has shown that stabbing damage, cutting damge, and blunt force won't work. But she has never shown or been said to have any defense against a stunning attack. And 1 second would be enough for Kakashi to do what he did to Kakuza but it would be a headshot.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Madara was clearly shown the speed to either activate Susano or simply evade Tsunade if he wanted.
> 
> It was stated in the manga that Madara was fucking around. They said "hurr durr we forced you to use a bunshin" and Madara proceeds to troll them with "5 vs 1". You are completely misinterpreting the fight.
> 
> I ask you this - is Tsunade faster than Raikage?



First three panels. Notice Madara's lack of response, and when he does, he says "it's 5 vs 1" showing he admits he was cornered. I mean, how hard is it to understand? 

Tsunade has shown that she can keep up with Raikage, which is what I'm saying, not that she's faster. Either way, she still blitzed him on panel, so I don't know why you're trying to deny it happening. I mean, it's canon.



IchLiebe said:


> Because she wasn't shown till the next panel.
> 
> 
> 
> But it's different no matter what you say. The body in Naruto is different then ours. They have a different nervous system and everything. Hiruzen was stabbed in the back and could still move, Madara was this chapter and they could still move and talk. A RKB will stab her and don't you think that that split second is what KAkashi is going to be waiting for. He also has sharingan to predict that small movement, as shown in Kakashi gaiden.



How do they have a difference nervous system? Orochimaru pretty much explained how Tsunade's Raninshou works using the human nervous system, so clearly they have the same nervous system.

People have survived stabbing in the back. Stabbing through the spine is different. And the ninja you're using as examples were talking anyway, not fighting like Tsunade.

I've stated multiple times Sharingan prediction isn't that much help in a fight against elite level ninjas, and it didn't help Madara stop himself from being blitzed by Tsunade.



> But it won't work. She hasn't shown to be resilient to any type of attack like a RKB. She has shown that stabbing damage, cutting damge, and blunt force won't work. But she has never shown or been said to have any defense against a stunning attack. And 1 second would be enough for Kakashi to do what he did to Kakuza but it would be a headshot.



I understand where you're coming from but by using that logic, RKB hasn't shown to work on Tsunade. Byakugou has defended her against Madara's katon too without too many burns, so I wouldn't say it's limited to just blunt force attacks. And she has never been said to be able to defend against a stunning attack because there's no need for Kishi to throw it out there. Using your own logic again, what HAS been shown to work against Byakugou? We can't just base our arguments like that, which is why I based my hypothesis that stunning wouldn't work on Tsunade off the fact that normal attacks that should paralyze her completely didn't.

The Kakuzu situation is a little different. He was waiting until Kakuzu got close to ambush him. When he used RKB against Pain, he was hiding away from him, giving more distance he needs to cover. By your own logic again, he has never shown himself to be fast enough to follow RKB up with a strike (unless he's used it other than against Asura Path, but I don't remember it) before Chouji and Chouza got their strikes in and RKB has never shown how long it stuns for.


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## Genma1998 (Apr 6, 2013)

Kakashi should win this mid-diff at most. 1km is just too much of an advantage for him. Speed + Sharingan should be a sure win for Mr. Hatake. Tsunade's definitely not slow but imo not even a match for Kakashi's speed. IF Tsunade manages to close the distance between them without getting hit, her moves would still be too predictable. Raikiri to a vital organ/face should be enough for my man Kakashi.


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## LostSelf (Apr 6, 2013)

Kakashi wins. He doesn't only have a speed advantage, but has Sharingan precog and has dealt ith better taijutsu (And much faster as well) oponents than her with Gai if we count that they fought to see who's better. This and his raiton jutsus making him deadly in close combat will have Tsunade regenerating almost most of the time.

I don't buy that tanking hits like Cell tanked Krillin's and then counterattacked. She feels pain, and if she's fast enough to counter attack feeling pain then Kakashi would be faster yet to dodge and counter attack again. She will need katsuyu here, because Kakashi holds the advantage and her brute strenght's advantage is diminished by Kakashi's precog, speed, experience against more skilled shinobis in close combat (Gai and Itachi) and his cutting Raiton.

Not to mention the analytical advantage. Though it doesn't always makes a huge diference, having more advantages than disadvantages in this fight helps him a lot.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

Genma1998 said:


> Kakashi should win this mid-diff at most. 1km is just too much of an advantage for him. Speed + Sharingan should be a sure win for Mr. Hatake. Tsunade's definitely not slow but imo not even a match for Kakashi's speed. IF Tsunade manages to close the distance between them without getting hit, her moves would still be too predictable. Raikiri to a vital organ/face should be enough for my man Kakashi.





TheIronMan said:


> Kakashi wins. He doesn't only have a speed advantage, but has Sharingan precog and has dealt ith better taijutsu (And much faster as well) oponents than her with Gai if we count that they fought to see who's better. This and his raiton jutsus making him deadly in close combat will have Tsunade regenerating almost most of the time.
> 
> I don't buy that tanking hits like Cell tanked Krillin's and then counterattacked. She feels pain, and if she's fast enough to counter attack feeling pain then Kakashi would be faster yet to dodge and counter attack again. She will need katsuyu here, because Kakashi holds the advantage and her brute strenght's advantage is diminished by Kakashi's precog, speed, experience against more skilled shinobis in close combat (Gai and Itachi) and his cutting Raiton.
> 
> Not to mention the analytical advantage. Though it doesn't always makes a huge diference, having more advantages than disadvantages in this fight helps him a lot.



The speed advantage and Sharingan recognition is being played by you guys too much. I've already covered those points numerous times. Tsunade has speed good enough to keep up with the fastest characters. She might not get a hit the first few times, but there's no way Kakashi is dodging all her attacks for hours. His Sharingan has not helped stop him from being hit before.

I also find your claim that Gai is better than Tsunade in taijutsu very dubious. Tsunade was faring much, much, MUCH better against the Susanoo clones vs A, another top tier taijutsu user. Her taijutsu is not to be underestimated. Hell, she was doing better than all the Kages (except maybe Onoki) and she was the only one able to take them down (it looks to me like Onoki used his weighted rock technique to slow them down rather than turn them to stone, but I may be wrong).

As for the counterattack point. Tsunade has shown fast enough reflexes to bat away 5 fireballs. And she jumped up to do that, all before the other Kages could react, so I don't see why it couldn't happen. Especially since Kakashi's Raikiri will be stuck in her body (no other jutsu from Kakashi is going to do anything to Tsunade and he should know, and eventually resort to Raikiri as it's a key part of his fighting style).

The analytical advantage again, is dubious. Tsunade may not have had as many fights as Kakashi, but from what she's shown, I would say her analytical skills are roughly on par with Kakashi's. She immediately came up with the idea to build chakra in her feet to try and counter Pain's ST. She could immediately tell Orochimaru had had a long period of exhaustion and erratic heartbeat from looking at him.


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## LostSelf (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> The speed advantage and Sharingan recognition is being played by you guys too much. I've already covered those points numerous times. Tsunade has speed good enough to keep up with the fastest characters. She might not get a hit the first few times, but there's no way Kakashi is dodging all her attacks for hours. His Sharingan has not helped stop him from being hit before.



Tsunade is not as fast as you're claiming. And yeah, Sharingan precog made a helpless Sasuke that was being blitzed go toe to toe with Naruto. We're not playing it too much, you're ignoring it.

Tsunade never kept up with the fastest characters. Unless we defy logic and assume she's as fast as a V2 enlightened Ei, then no. 



> I also find your claim that Gai is better than Tsunade in taijutsu very dubious. Tsunade was faring much, much, MUCH better against the Susanoo clones vs A, another top tier taijutsu user. Her taijutsu is not to be underestimated. Hell, she was doing better than all the Kages (except maybe Onoki) and she was the only one able to take them down (it looks to me like Onoki used his weighted rock technique to slow them down rather than turn them to stone, but I may be wrong).



Gai is much better in taijutsu, let's remember how he fought Obito. Tsunade has not shown good taijutsu feats other than a linear and predictable punch. Also, when Tsunade did good against Susano'o clones? Tsunade and hte other kages were being stomped before they tamed up to take them down.



> As for the counterattack point. Tsunade has shown fast enough reflexes to bat away 5 fireballs. And she jumped up to do that, all before the other Kages could react, so I don't see why it couldn't happen. Especially since Kakashi's Raikiri will be stuck in her body (no other jutsu from Kakashi is going to do anything to Tsunade and he should know, and eventually resort to Raikiri as it's a key part of his fighting style).



Tsunade did this because the other kages were tired and injured and she wasn't, it's quite clear. And Kakashi was cutting Biju tails if im not mistaken witth a Raikiri chain. Nothing stops him fro paralyzing her and cutting her in half.



> The analytical advantage again, is dubious. Tsunade may not have had as many fights as Kakashi, but from what she's shown, I would say her analytical skills are roughly on par with Kakashi's. She immediately came up with the idea to build chakra in her feet to try and counter Pain's ST. She could immediately tell Orochimaru had had a long period of exhaustion and erratic heartbeat from looking at him.



She lacks the feats to say she is on par with Kakashi who has been praised to be near Shikamaru. And of course, she did this because she's a medic nin. The best one. This does not puts her in the same tier with Kakashi when it comes to inteligence.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> [How do they have a difference nervous system? Orochimaru pretty much explained how Tsunade's Raninshou works using the human nervous system, so clearly they have the same nervous system.



They have an extra chakra system running through their body.



> People have survived stabbing in the back. Stabbing through the spine is different. And the ninja you're using as examples were talking anyway, not fighting like Tsunade.



Madara and Hiruzen both had the sword through their spines. Because they were at the end of the fight. Madara lived and could still move.



> I've stated multiple times Sharingan prediction isn't that much help in a fight against elite level ninjas, and it didn't help Madara stop himself from being blitzed by Tsunade.



Because the elite ninja are who... Gai, v2 jins, Bee, Naruto, Hashirama, and that's basically it. Tsunade is a linear and predictable taijutsu user, which is sharingan perfect thing to predict.



> I understand where you're coming from but by using that logic, RKB hasn't shown to work on Tsunade. Byakugou has defended her against Madara's katon too without too many burns, so I wouldn't say it's limited to just blunt force attacks. And she has never been said to be able to defend against a stunning attack because there's no need for Kishi to throw it out there. Using your own logic again, what HAS been shown to work against Byakugou? We can't just base our arguments like that, which is why I based my hypothesis that stunning wouldn't work on Tsunade off the fact that normal attacks that should paralyze her completely didn't.



Tsunade's punches haven't worked on Kakashi hurr durr. Quit acting like a fucking child. RKB stuns, she hasn't shown anything to stop it, so it works. And I said cutting, stabbing, and blunt attacks don't work. Normal attacks that aren't meant for paralyzing though. Do you think Kishi is going to paralyze Tsunade in the middle of a fight from being stabbed? No. Do you think that an attacked meant to paralyze and created for that purpose would work on Tsunade? Yes.



> The Kakuzu situation is a little different. He was waiting until Kakuzu got close to ambush him. When he used RKB against Pain, he was hiding away from him, giving more distance he needs to cover. By your own logic again, he has never shown himself to be fast enough to follow RKB up with a strike (unless he's used it other than against Asura Path, but I don't remember it) before Chouji and Chouza got their strikes in and RKB has never shown how long it stuns for.



He covered a large distance to stab him. He had backup come in for Pain. And he's only used RKB once since he's got it that we know of. And 1 second is enough for Kakashi who is a speedster.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Tsunade is not as fast as you're claiming. And yeah, Sharingan precog made a helpless Sasuke that was being blitzed go toe to toe with Naruto. We're not playing it too much, you're ignoring it.
> 
> Tsunade never kept up with the fastest characters. Unless we defy logic and assume she's as fast as a V2 enlightened Ei, then no.



Tsunade kept up with V2 lightened A, she may not be faster, but she kept up. She blitzed Madara. She batted away 5 fireballs before the other kages could react. There's no point trying to claim she's slow.



> Gai is much better in taijutsu, let's remember how he fought Obito. Tsunade has not shown good taijutsu feats other than a linear and predictable punch. Also, when Tsunade did good against Susano'o clones? Tsunade and hte other kages were being stomped before they tamed up to take them down.



Tsunade was the only one knocking them out. And she was knocking all of them out too. Look at the distance between Tsunade and the other clones. Clearly, she punched them out of the fight and they were only just returning to the battlefield. That seems pretty good to me.



> Tsunade did this because the other kages were tired and injured and she wasn't, it's quite clear. And Kakashi was cutting Biju tails if im not mistaken witth a Raikiri chain. Nothing stops him fro paralyzing her and cutting her in half.



What the fuck is this shit? Tsunade's Byakugou had almost run out. Meanwhile, you have A, who has bijuu level chakra, yet he still couldn't react. You have Onoki who had just been healed by Tsunade. You had Gaara, who could have at least tried to put up a sand shield. I swear the levels some of you stoop to in order to discredit Tsunade's feats are just ridiculous.

She can survive bisection without Byakugou, but more importantly, how is paralysis going to work, when blades through the spine don't?



> She lacks the feats to say she is on par with Kakashi who has been praised to be near Shikamaru. And of course, she did this because she's a medic nin. The best one. This does not puts her in the same tier with Kakashi when it comes to inteligence.



Again, discrediting feats. Whether or not she's a medic nin, that shows how observant she is. And she came up with using chakra on feet to try to counter ST (not saying it would have worked, but Kakashi never thought of it). And by your own logic, what does Kakashi have to analyze if she's a "linear fighter". If anything, Tsunade's analyzing will be more helpful to her than Kakashi's. If Kakashi takes some time to analyze her battle style anyway, it could be fatal to him.



IchLiebe said:


> They have an extra chakra system running through their body.
> 
> Madara and Hiruzen both had the sword through their spines. Because they were at the end of the fight. Madara lived and could still move.





If you look at the size of the blades Madara and Hiruzen were stabbed by, it may not even have hit the spine. Hiruzen didn't even have the sword go straight through. And they were incapacitated by it anyway. Tsunade was still good to fight.



> Because the elite ninja are who... Gai, v2 jins, Bee, Naruto, Hashirama, and that's basically it. Tsunade is a linear and predictable taijutsu user, which is sharingan perfect thing to predict.



I don't see why Madara's sharingan would have done anything. Kakuzu landed a kick on Kakashi and Tsunade's speed feats FAR outmatch Kakuzu's. You're trying too hard.



> Tsunade's punches haven't worked on Kakashi hurr durr. Quit acting like a fucking child. RKB stuns, she hasn't shown anything to stop it, so it works. And I said cutting, stabbing, and blunt attacks don't work. Normal attacks that aren't meant for paralyzing though. Do you think Kishi is going to paralyze Tsunade in the middle of a fight from being stabbed? No. Do you think that an attacked meant to paralyze and created for that purpose would work on Tsunade? Yes.



Don't say I'm acting like a child when you're the one using that logic. 

"Tsunade has never tanked stunning attacks, therefore she can't!"

The fact that you say I'm acting like a child when you're obstinately claiming that ninjas have different anatomy to humans when it comes to the spine and nervous system meaning Tsunade's feat is doesn't count, yet have similar enough anatomies that a headshot is a definite, instant kill (even though Hidan survived decapitation, and Tsunade without Byakugou survived bisection) making Kakashi's move sure to kill her only shows how stupid you're acting. You have to do better than this. It's not good enough.

You discount all of Tsunade's feats and hype up Kakashi's feats, including Sharingan prediction which has barely helped ninjas against the elite.

Again, by your own faulty logic, Kabuto's attack to stop Tsunade breathing was specifically to stop Tsunade breathing. Did it work? No. Just because a technique has a specific purpose doesn't mean it will definitely work, especially not on an opponent like Tsunade who has shown extreme resilience and ability to fight through things that almost every other ninja couldn't. And against the strongest ninja in the manga, I find the idea that an attack stunning her muscles working for long enough for Kakashi to cover distance and attack her dubious, especially considering everything else I said.



> He covered a large distance to stab him. He had backup come in for Pain. And he's only used RKB once since he's got it that we know of. And 1 second is enough for Kakashi who is a speedster.



I'm sorry, but you have got to be fucking kidding me. Kakashi was hiding behind a tree. Shikamaru used Hidan to draw Kakuzu closer to the tree. He won't have that luxury against Tsunade. He will be quite a distance away because he knows how dangerous her CQC skills are, and by the time he covers that distance, it's highly unlikely Tsunade would still be stunned. And a millisecond will be more enough for Tsunade to move her head out of the way and get a hit back. Raikiri is quite a linear attack itself, and he has to thrust himself into it, leaving him very open for counterattack.

Again, you claim Tsunade has never stop an attack that stuns therefore it works. What if I say that his attack has never shown long term paralysis? Or that it even works on non-mechanical humans? See what I did there? You can't blurt out flawed logic, then kick and scream if someone turns it against you.

You tried though.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> If you look at the size of the blades Madara and Hiruzen were stabbed by, it may not even have hit the spine. Hiruzen didn't even have the sword go straight through. And they were incapacitated by it anyway. Tsunade was still good to fight.



Except it goes right through where the spine is.

OMG. I just went and looked since you said that. Tsunade wasn't hit in the spine.



> I don't see why Madara's sharingan would have done anything. Kakuzu landed a kick on Kakashi and Tsunade's speed feats FAR outmatch Kakuzu's. You're trying too hard.



Kakashi thought Kakuza was dead and wasn't even paying attention. You're trying too hard. Kakashi's taijutsu, speed, jutsu arsenal, and intelligence is all better than Tsunade's.



> Don't say I'm acting like a child when you're the one using that logic.
> 
> "Tsunade has never tanked stunning attacks, therefore she can't!"



She can't. The argument you used is one that people use when they know they have lost the argument and won't admit it. Kakashi has never tanked Tsunade's punch so he can't. Madara hasn't shown a counter to kamui so he gets kamui'd. Tenten hasn't shown anything to break though susanoo so she can't. It goes on and on. Put you make sense of it using everything and get people's limits. People have shown that stunning won't work on them and Tsunade's not in that group.



> The fact that you say I'm acting like a child when you're obstinately claiming that ninjas have different anatomy to humans when it comes to the spine and nervous system meaning Tsunade's feat is doesn't count, yet have similar enough anatomies that a headshot is a definite, instant kill (even though Hidan survived decapitation, and Tsunade without Byakugou survived bisection) making Kakashi's move sure to kill her only shows how stupid you're acting. You have to do better than this. It's not good enough.



It doesn't count because she wasn't stabbed in the spine. And they have an extra system in their body but no reason to talk about it as Tsunade hasn't been stabbed in the spine. And brain cells can't be healed as even Tsunade has shown healing limits. If she can't heal chakra cells then she ain't healing brain cells.



> You discount all of Tsunade's feats and hype up Kakashi's feats, including Sharingan prediction which has barely helped ninjas against the elite.



I'm not hyping anything. Better taijutsu+faster=Kakashi beating Tsunade in taijutsu.



> Again, by your own faulty logic, Kabuto's attack to stop Tsunade breathing was specifically to stop Tsunade breathing. Did it work? No. Just because a technique has a specific purpose doesn't mean it will definitely work, especially not on an opponent like Tsunade who has shown extreme resilience and ability to fight through things that almost every other ninja couldn't. And against the strongest ninja in the manga, I find the idea that an attack stunning her muscles working for long enough for Kakashi to cover distance and attack her dubious, especially considering everything else I said.



Scan? Because I don't think he was trying and after that Tsunade never being stabbed in the spine, I want some evidence. Asura showed extreme resilience to shit and it still worked. The thing is RKB does NO damage, NONE. It stuns.

Nevermind I went to look for the scan. Here it is. And he was trying to make it where she had trouble moving and said the next page that maybe he didn't go far enough suggesting that he was holding back.



> I'm sorry, but you have got to be fucking kidding me. Kakashi was hiding behind a tree. Shikamaru used Hidan to draw Kakuzu closer to the tree. He won't have that luxury against Tsunade. He will be quite a distance away because he knows how dangerous her CQC skills are, and by the time he covers that distance, it's highly unlikely Tsunade would still be stunned. And a millisecond will be more enough for Tsunade to move her head out of the way and get a hit back. Raikiri is quite a linear attack itself, and he has to thrust himself into it, leaving him very open for counterattack.



He drew him to that tree for Choji. We don't know where Kakashi was. He won't be far away because he will be waiting for that opening. And the whole reason for the gaiden arc was to show Kakashi's sharingan is to counter those counterattacks.



> Again, you claim Tsunade has never stop an attack that stuns therefore it works. What if I say that his attack has never shown long term paralysis? Or that it even works on non-mechanical humans? See what I did there? You can't blurt out flawed logic, then kick and scream if someone turns it against you.
> 
> You tried though.



And of course it works and it's a RAITON jutsu. That's the very essence of raiton jutsu's. Ask anyone in the battledome and you will get what I'm saying.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Except it goes right through where the spine is.
> 
> OMG. I just went and looked since you said that. Tsunade wasn't hit in the spine.



Look at the top panel and the width of the blades. And if you still want to discount it, look at this one too. If you still trying to disagree, I don't know what to say. 



> Kakashi thought Kakuza was dead and wasn't even paying attention. You're trying too hard. Kakashi's taijutsu, speed, jutsu arsenal, and intelligence is all better than Tsunade's.



Byakugou.



> She can't. The argument you used is one that people use when they know they have lost the argument and won't admit it. Kakashi has never tanked Tsunade's punch so he can't. Madara hasn't shown a counter to kamui so he gets kamui'd. Tenten hasn't shown anything to break though susanoo so she can't. It goes on and on. Put you make sense of it using everything and get people's limits. People have shown that stunning won't work on them and Tsunade's not in that group.



Well considering you used the argument first. 

I merely turned the argument against you using your own faulty logic, and you called it childish. 

Who has shown stunning won't work on them? RKB has had 1 showing and yet you're so certain it will subdue Tsunade. 

Kakashi has never showed himself fast enough to dodge Tsunade's blitz because Madara couldn't do anything. Because A couldn't react before Tsunade could jump up and bat fireballs away. If we keep using your logic, you stay losing. So maybe trying a change of tack would help you.



> It doesn't count because she wasn't stabbed in the spine. And they have an extra system in their body but no reason to talk about it as Tsunade hasn't been stabbed in the spine. And brain cells can't be healed as even Tsunade has shown healing limits. If she can't heal chakra cells then she ain't healing brain cells.



I already addressed your spine complaint. To you, I guess ninjas must certainly have a chakra system which changes their entire anatomy that makes their spines not essential, yet their brains essential. 

You can believe what you want, but, I mean, basic anatomy tells you that the spine is key to transmitting electrical signals from the brain (Orochimaru confirmed that electrical signals is how ninjas move just in case you're going to whine about there being no evidence). The damage to chakra cells is from the microscopic wind blades. That's not how Kakashi's jutsus work.



> I'm not hyping anything. Better taijutsu+faster=Kakashi beating Tsunade in taijutsu.



If you want to ignore all of Tsunade's feats, sure, you can believe whatever you want.



> Scan? Because I don't think he was trying and after that Tsunade never being stabbed in the spine, I want some evidence. Asura showed extreme resilience to shit and it still worked. The thing is RKB does NO damage, NONE. It stuns.
> 
> Nevermind I went to look for the scan. Here it is. And he was trying to make it where she had trouble moving and said the next page that maybe he didn't go far enough suggesting that he was holding back.



Read carefully. He was going all out, but is wondering whether Tsunade's breasts stopped the jutsu from working properly. Which supports my previous point. Asura did show resilience but he's made of metal so would conduct electricity better anyway. Where are the feats that show how long RKB stuns? It looks to me that it stunned Asura for a few moments, and then backup arrived. Tsunade's ability to keep moving, and moving fast (when blitzing Orochimaru) while incapacitated should mean she can avoid Kakashi's follow up attack.



> He drew him to that tree for Choji. We don't know where Kakashi was. He won't be far away because he will be waiting for that opening. And the whole reason for the gaiden arc was to show Kakashi's sharingan is to counter those counterattacks.



I guess Kakashi was in a tree way, way away from Chouji then? Get real and stop being stupid, they discussed a plan together, it makes NO sense for Kakashi not to be hiding there too, considering they planned the attack. You keep damaging your own credibility with such bullshit statements to try and hype Kakashi's speed, while ignoring Tsunade's. 



> And of course it works and it's a RAITON jutsu. That's the very essence of raiton jutsu's. Ask anyone in the battledome and you will get what I'm saying.



Tsunade is on a different level to other ninja. Most people would think being bisected would stop Tsunade from moving and using chakra but it didn't. Most would think that huge blades through the spine would stop Tsunade but it didn't. Most would think multiple stab wounds would stop Tsunade from blitzing Orochimaru but it didn't.

You're hinging your entire argument off the "Tsunade hasn't shown she can stop paralysis, therefore it works" although she has, and now you've changed it to "she hasn't shown she can stop Raiton paralysis"? Get real. 

I could make baseless claims too like you, but if anything, the burden of proof lies on you making these baseless claims - what HAS worked on Tsunade with Byakugou? Nothing. So surely you need to prove it WILL work on her to have any credibility considering nothing else has worked on her?

Please, come up with coherent arguments backed up by scans or logical hypotheses instead of kicking and screaming that "Tsunade's feats don't count and because she doesn't have a feat stopping a very specific technique, it means an instant win for Kakashi." You're trying to discredit all her feats anyway, but you need concrete feats from her now? Make your fucking mind up.

You're trying too hard, but you're not showing any depth of thought or reasoning in your arguments, you're just using the same childish, biased arguments again and again that ignore Tsunade's feats and try to elevate Kakashi's feats. It's not a good look you're wearing right now.


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## Kaiser (Apr 6, 2013)

I would say Kakashi wins. Tsunade is too linear for me to not see her being tricked by Kage Bunshins when the guy even tricked the likes of smart dojutsu users like Itachi and Pain with it. Not only he is faster than her, but he even has Sharingan precognition, Sharingan genjutsu is also available to favorise a feint. Not even mentioning his ninjutsu and particularly his raiton techniques that should paralyse and handicap Tsunade's movements and could take advantage of it to cut her in half. Even if she doesn't die directly, she would be handicaped which would mean the end of the fight


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Look at the top panel and the width of the blades. And if you still want to discount it, look at this one too. If you still trying to disagree, I don't know what to say.



Look at the second panel and it clearly shows that it's not through the spine. And as shown many shinobi have been stabbed in the spine and still moved.



> Byakugou.



RKB+Raikiri+Raiden+etc.



> Well considering you used the argument first.



I used it correctly. I said Tsunade hasn't shown anything to counter it, you said it hasn't shown to work on her. I took into account that out of every fight she hasn't shown a counter. You were in a corner and said it hasn't worked on her, yet it's never been used against her.



> Who has shown stunning won't work on them? RKB has had 1 showing and yet you're so certain it will subdue Tsunade.
> 
> Bee, Sasuke, Darui, Raikage.
> 
> ...


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## bleakwinter (Apr 6, 2013)

In all honestly, where was it ever stated/implied that Raiton Kage Bunshin paralyzes the victim? I've mostly been giving Kakashi proponents the benefit of the doubt, but since so many are hinging on Raiton Kage Bunshin paralyzing her (A jutsu that Kakashi has used _once_ thus far), I'd like concrete proof. Asura Pain was crushed by Chouji and Chouza immediately after the Raiton Kage Bunshin landed (1), so I'm not sure how one could conclude a definitive after-effect of Raiton Kage Bunshin. We know it electrocutes the foe, but that doesn't mean paralysis. Similarly Killer Bee and Suigetsu had a Chidori electrocute both of them (1), but neither had suffered paralysis (In fact, Killer Bee moved immediately after in the next page (2)).


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## PopoTime (Apr 6, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Katsuya's acid is so slow that a giant snake could dodge it.



Thats not the point.

The acid forces Kakashi to either retreat, or climb Katsuyu to fight Tsunade in CQC

Since the fight takes place in Konoha Crater, Kakashi would normally use the debris to his advantage i,e Bunshin feints/traps

However in the open Kakashi has nothing that can damage Katsuyu and in CQC Tsunade has the huge advantage, with Byakugou, Ranshinsho and Torsobuster punches.

If worst comes to worst, Katsuyu can just split into smaller versions, absorb Tsunade and allow Kakashi to fall into the acid below


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> In all honestly, where was it ever stated/implied that Raiton Kage Bunshin paralyzes the victim? I've mostly been giving Kakashi proponents the benefit of the doubt, but since so many are hinging on Raiton Kage Bunshin paralyzing her (A jutsu that Kakashi has used _once_ thus far), I'd like concrete proof. Asura Pain was crushed by Chouji and Chouza immediately after the Raiton Kage Bunshin landed (1), so I'm not sure how one could conclude a definitive after-effect of Raiton Kage Bunshin. We know it electrocutes the foe, but that doesn't mean paralysis. Similarly Killer Bee and Suigetsu had a Chidori electrocute both of them (1), but neither had suffered paralysis (In fact, Killer Bee moved immediately after in the next page (2)).



Electricity that wraps around the foes body. It stuns, paralyzes or what you want to call it. And they moved after the current stopped and went away.


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## bleakwinter (Apr 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Electricity that wraps around the foes body. It stuns, paralyzes or what you want to call it.
> 
> And they moved after the current stopped and went away.



...The current went away _immediately_ afterward in the next page (Or else Choji and Chouza would've gotten shocked simply by touching Asura if the current didn't fade). Sorry, but that's hardly paralysis at all if the duration is that abbreviated. Even so, the real Kakashi wasn't even anywhere near Asura pain (1) at the time of electrocution, so there's no way Kakashi could run up to Tsunade and land a follow up attack on Tsunade before the electricity subsides. Ultimately, even if you still believe that this technique paralyzes the foe, I've essentially proven that it lasts for such a brief period of time that the victim can move shortly after. The real Kakashi would literally have to be standing right next to Tsunade (Which he never does when setting up clone feints. He's always distanced) in order to have enough time to strike Tsunade before the electrocution whereas off.


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## Kaiser (Apr 6, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> In all honestly, where was it ever stated/implied that Raiton Kage Bunshin paralyzes the victim? I've mostly been giving Kakashi proponents the benefit of the doubt, but since so many are hinging on Raiton Kage Bunshin paralyzing her (A jutsu that Kakashi has used _once_ thus far), I'd like concrete proof. Asura Pain was crushed by Chouji and Chouza immediately after the Raiton Kage Bunshin landed (1), so I'm not sure how one could conclude a definitive after-effect of Raiton Kage Bunshin. We know it electrocutes the foe, but that doesn't mean paralysis. Similarly Killer Bee and Suigetsu had a Chidori electrocute both of them (1), but neither had suffered paralysis (In fact, Killer Bee moved immediately after in the next page (2)).


Because it's how electricity works when it flows inside someone's body. It makes your body go numb, depriving the opponent from his freedom: Link removed


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## bleakwinter (Apr 6, 2013)

Blake said:


> Because it's how electricity works when it flows inside someone's body. It makes your body go numb, depriving the opponent from his freedom: one of five machinegundamas



Yes but you see, Sasuke is keeping his Chidori blade inside Yamato's body (1), thus keeping the current flowing into him and keeping him immobile. Kakashi's Raiton Kagebunshin electrocution wears off almost immediately as I've shown. Similarly, Sasuke's same Chidori wore off immediately against Killer Bee and Suigetsu because he removed direct contact with them.


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## LostSelf (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Tsunade kept up with V2 lightened A, she may not be faster, but she kept up. She blitzed Madara. She batted away 5 fireballs before the other kages could react. There's no point trying to claim she's slow.



Prove she kept up. But prove it showing me her last position AND Raikage's last position. Because otherwise you have nothing to prove that they both moved at the same time. Tsunade being as fast as V1 Ei a big word to say. But to claim that she can keep up with V2 LIGHTENED Ei is beyond me. She's not even far from that. She's light years for keeping up with that speed.



> Tsunade was the only one knocking them out. And she was knocking all of them out too. Look at the distance between Tsunade and the other clones. Clearly, she punched them out of the fight and they were only just returning to the battlefield. That seems pretty good to me.



She knocked them out? She's just shown hitting one, all of them were struggling against the five Susano'os. Tsunade as well.



> What the fuck is this shit? Tsunade's Byakugou had almost run out. Meanwhile, you have A, who has bijuu level chakra, yet he still couldn't react. You have Onoki who had just been healed by Tsunade. You had Gaara, who could have at least tried to put up a sand shield. I swear the levels some of you stoop to in order to discredit Tsunade's feats are just ridiculous.



No, she had byakugo and she was still healing her injuries while the kages were not healed. I don't know what's so hard to understand here. We're not discrediting her feats. You're exaggerating them to godly levels and missing some vital points in your "proof".



> She can survive bisection without Byakugou, but more importantly, how is paralysis going to work, when blades through the spine don't?



She can survive because her Byakugo heals her. And you mean survive being almost dead on the floor? So if i get shotted in the head and i live for 20 seconds, we can say i can survive a stab in the stomach? Agonizing after being bisected says nothing about being paralyzed or being stunned for some seconds.



> Again, discrediting feats. Whether or not she's a medic nin, that shows how observant she is. And she came up with using chakra on feet to try to counter ST (not saying it would have worked, but Kakashi never thought of it). And by your own logic, what does Kakashi have to analyze if she's a "linear fighter". If anything, Tsunade's analyzing will be more helpful to her than Kakashi's. If Kakashi takes some time to analyze her battle style anyway, it could be fatal to him.



I'm not discrediting her feats. Again, let's not exaggerate her feats (This always happens with her somehow). You've yet to prove that she is as smart as kakashi. Who figured out Obito's weakness twice, trolled Itachi and has been hyped all over the story. No, Tsunade is not as smart as he is.

He doesn't have to analyze her fighting style. He just have to dodge/ cut her limbs, trick her and put her in genjutsu, and etc. He's more than capable of tricking her if he tricked Itachi. Now please let's not say she's on par with Itachi in this department.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Yes but you see, Sasuke is keeping his Chidori blade inside Yamato's body (1), thus keeping the current flowing into him and keeping him immobile. Kakashi's Raiton Kagebunshin electrocution wears off almost immediately as I've shown. Similarly, Sasuke's same Chidori wore off immediately against Killer Bee and Suigetsu because he removed direct contact with them.



Sasuke's numbs, RKB stuns. Two different things.

Here's .


> Stun guns generate 5 to 8 milliamperes of electricity to the body. When you use a stun gun, it releases high voltage to the muscles scrambling the electrical pulses sent from the brain to other parts of the body.  When these electrical impulses are disrupted, it results to the temporary shut down of our body?s electrical system. When there is temporary shut down of the body?s electrical system, it is temporarily paralyzed due to the disruption of the brain?s electrical signals. This period causes confusion


This is what RKB is meant for and that period is what Kakashi will be waiting for. And Kakashi didn't attack Asura because he knew the backup was there and wanted to save chakra.


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## Hasan (Apr 7, 2013)

Kakashi's tendency to use Raikiri as punches, and with the dōjutsu's ability to predict her movements will give her trouble, big time. Additionally, Kakashi is a lot faster than her, so he has advantage on both offense and defense fronts, as in evasion.

I don't equate being bloodlusted with losing your mind, and Katsuyu isn't going to be summoned—at least, not for the greater part of the fight. She didn't summon it against Madara, and against whom each of the Kage were giving it their best. Gigantic summons are not much useful against human opponents, anyway.

As for how Kakashi wins, I think he has quite a few options available to him. A _Raiton Kage Bunshin + Raikiri_ combo seems good enough; a quick attack that he attempted against Shuradō; _Kuchiyose: Doton: Tsuiga no Jutsu_ that he used against Zabuza—to immobilize her; and _Raiden_. Note that, this is as far as finishing moves are concerned. With a well-setup diversion i.e a tactic that will leave her vulnerable, followed by any of the above would grant him victory. His Dotons would come in handy for this purpose.

To sum up, Kakashi has agility, which coupled with the Sharingan would help a lot against slow fighters like Tsunade; as well as having many options to "neutralize" her—she has medical skills, after all. Unless, he aims for the head, and as Santoryu already pointed out, Kakashi has attempted decapitation on several instances.



bleakwinter said:


> Yes but you see, Sasuke is keeping his Chidori blade inside Yamato's body (1), thus keeping the current flowing into him and keeping him immobile. Kakashi's Raiton Kagebunshin electrocution wears off almost immediately as I've shown. Similarly, Sasuke's same Chidori wore off immediately against Killer Bee and Suigetsu because he removed direct contact with them.



Kakashi said he was ready to impale either of the two with Raikiri, most likely Shuradō. Knowing that he was at considerable distance, and hiding under the rubble, the effect of Raiton Kage Bunshin lasted long enough for Kakashi to achieve that.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 7, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Look at the second panel and it clearly shows that it's not through the spine. And as shown many shinobi have been stabbed in the spine and still moved.



The first panel is a closeup and they are clearly through the spine, but I agree the blades aren't in the spine in the second panel. However, it's possible that the blades moved as she struck the Susanoo, and it's also possible it's an art inconsistency - after all, if you look at the size of the blades in the first and third panels, they are MUCH thicker than the blades shown in the second panel. Moving on though, you again ignore the second picture I showed you.



> RKB+Raikiri+Raiden+etc.
> 
> I used it correctly. I said Tsunade hasn't shown anything to counter it, you said it hasn't shown to work on her. I took into account that out of every fight she hasn't shown a counter. You were in a corner and said it hasn't worked on her, yet it's never been used against her.



I can use your own arguments against you all day because they're stupid. Kakashi has never shown he can jump several metres in the air and bat away 5 fireballs before A can even react. The fact you keep having to resort to RKB definitely stunning her when it's been shown once, against a metallic opponent, which he couldn't follow up with a strike only shows you're really getting desperate. Tsunade hasn't shown a counter to lots of things, but that doesn't mean you assume they will all work on her. We make a hypothesis based on logic and assumptions, like I did, that led me to the conclusion that Tsunade wouldn't be affected. Meanwhile, you, as a blindly biased Kakashi fan, jumped straight into "she can't stop it!1!!!"



> Bee, Sasuke, Darui, Raikage.



Scans? I know Bee moved straight after a chidori so he can react to stunning. If anything, the fact so many ninjas can only helps my argument. We know (even if you don't want to admit it) that Tsunade is on another level to these ninjas in terms of taking shit and still moving.



> Scans?



he was ready

Not sure what the point in this is since you seem desperate to discount all her feats anyway, but... 



> Ninja's have  shown to be way different then us. They can jump 100 feet in the air, they can use jutsu, etc.
> 
> And Tsunade was surpised that Kabuto could move. She has those electrical signals and guess what happens when she gets stunned. They get fucked it.



You fail to grasp the nuances of my argument. Your bias is really showing. You're saying ninjas have different anatomies, therefore surviving what should be a paralyzing blow means nothing, but at the same time, that surviving a stunning attack (which should be a paralyzing blow) would work, and a headshot would definitely work (even though Hidan has survived it, Tsunade has survived bisection, etc.) Do you not see the error in your reasoning? You can't use the argument to says ninjas don't get stunned, then use it again to say they do get stunned. 



> He said he was holding back. Orochimaru isn't a speedster, neither is Madara. Kakashi has been noted to be fast while Tsunade was said to be slow.



This doesn't deserve a response. Tsunade has not been said to be slow. This is a common myth around this place, and the fact you're believing it over canon evidence makes your argument... dubious to say the very least.



> OMG, give it up. I said I don't know where Kakashi was and neither do you. But it's clear that the strategy was for Choji and not Kakashi. Kakashi saw an opening and took it.



No. You don't just give Kakashi the benefit of the doubt to give him a speed feat. You do realize they planned the attack together and how they would execute it? Knowing this, why the fuck would Kakashi be sitting round in a completely different place? Stop being stupid.



> Kakashi is on a different level than most shinobi.



Again, you fail to grasp the nuance of my argument. Kakashi is NOT on a different level in terms of fighting while damaged, continuing to go when other ninjas wouldn't, continuing to fight after sustaining what should be a paralyzing blow, etc.



> She hasn't though as many shinobi have been hit in the spine and showed no sign of being paralyzed.



Hiruzen, the attack didn't go straight through the spine, they only went slightly in. Both him and Madara were stabbed by thin blades, you can't say for certain they were stabbed through the spine, unlike Tsunade. And unlike Tsunade, they could barely move afterwards. Are you not at least starting to see the point by now?



> You're saying a paralyzing attack won't paralyze a person who has no counter to being paralyzed. You can't beat my argument so you're turning it around. And I'm not discrediting anything. The only feats me and you have talked about is being paralyzed.



No. You're contradicting yourself again and again. The prime example - ninjas have different anatomy that would mean a paralyzing attack wouldn't work, but the paralyzing attack I want to hype would work, and a headshot would work too because it would work in real life (despite you claiming they have different anatomies, Hidan surviving a headshot, and Tsunade having Byakugou).

You can't be serious at this point, you're just grasping at straws.



bleakwinter said:


> In all honestly, where was it ever stated/implied that Raiton Kage Bunshin paralyzes the victim? I've mostly been giving Kakashi proponents the benefit of the doubt, but since so many are hinging on Raiton Kage Bunshin paralyzing her (A jutsu that Kakashi has used _once_ thus far), I'd like concrete proof. Asura Pain was crushed by Chouji and Chouza immediately after the Raiton Kage Bunshin landed (1), so I'm not sure how one could conclude a definitive after-effect of Raiton Kage Bunshin. We know it electrocutes the foe, but that doesn't mean paralysis. Similarly Killer Bee and Suigetsu had a Chidori electrocute both of them (1), but neither had suffered paralysis (In fact, Killer Bee moved immediately after in the next page (2)).





bleakwinter said:


> ...The current went away _immediately_ afterward in the next page (Or else Choji and Chouza would've gotten shocked simply by touching Asura if the current didn't fade). Sorry, but that's hardly paralysis at all if the duration is that abbreviated. Even so, the real Kakashi wasn't even anywhere near Asura pain (1) at the time of electrocution, so there's no way Kakashi could run up to Tsunade and land a follow up attack on Tsunade before the electricity subsides. Ultimately, even if you still believe that this technique paralyzes the foe, I've essentially proven that it lasts for such a brief period of time that the victim can move shortly after. The real Kakashi would literally have to be standing right next to Tsunade (Which he never does when setting up clone feints. He's always distanced) in order to have enough time to strike Tsunade before the electrocution whereas off.



I've already brought these issues up with him, with no answer. He knows it's a valid point so will just pretend it never happend.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 7, 2013)

Double posting because it won't fit into one post (if it's possible to merge them, I'm all ears, or if a mod could do it, that would be great):



TheIronMan said:


> Prove she kept up. But prove it showing me her last position AND Raikage's last position. Because otherwise you have nothing to prove that they both moved at the same time. Tsunade being as fast as V1 Ei a big word to say. But to claim that she can keep up with V2 LIGHTENED Ei is beyond me. She's not even far from that. She's light years for keeping up with that speed.



Keeping up =/ being faster

(1)

Look how far Tsunade is away from him, and Tsunade's punch sent the Susanoo flying, so logically, Madara would just be getting further and further away.

(1)

Now look at the top panel. A is very close to him, and Tsunade isn't even in the panel, while Madara is just getting closer. We can't see where Tsunade is at the next two panels, but at the bottom one she strikes. 

(1)

Next page, they are both finishing up their strike. I would assume their striking motion takes a similar amount of time so they must have started at the same time. It's also possible that the combo strike was what destroyed the Susanoo completely. It's clear Kishi wants to show that they struck at the same time, you're just trying to hard here. And unsurprisingly, you choose to ignore Tsunade's feat of batting away 5 fireballs before A could react.



> She knocked them out? She's just shown hitting one, all of them were struggling against the five Susano'os. Tsunade as well.



Mei, Gaara after protecting Mei, A after losing concentration were struggling. Onoki managed to slow the Susanoos down. Tsunade managed to punch them out of the battle field. Look at the top left panel. The Susanoos assigned to Tsunade are only JUST returning to the battlefield. I think it's pretty clear Tsunade incapacitated them.



> No, she had byakugo and she was still healing her injuries while the kages were not healed. I don't know what's so hard to understand here. We're not discrediting her feats. You're exaggerating them to godly levels and missing some vital points in your "proof".



Such a biased point. Byakugou had almost run out, as shown by the fact that a few burns made it run out. A's bijuu level chakra should surely mean he should still be good to go. You're discrediting the feat again, but you're just using stupid arguments. Why can't you just fact that it happened instead of trying to argue against Kishi's own manga? You can win like that.



> She can survive because her Byakugo heals her. And you mean survive being almost dead on the floor? So if i get shotted in the head and i live for 20 seconds, we can say i can survive a stab in the stomach? Agonizing after being bisected says nothing about being paralyzed or being stunned for some seconds.



I'm sorry, but you either didn't read that chapter or are just being obnoxiously stupid. The Yin seal was intact. Therefore, Byakugou wasn't active. How is she almost dead if she's confident she can survive long enough to heal the mortal injuries of not 1, but 4 other ninja.



> I'm not discrediting her feats. Again, let's not exaggerate her feats (This always happens with her somehow). You've yet to prove that she is as smart as kakashi. Who figured out Obito's weakness twice, trolled Itachi and has been hyped all over the story. No, Tsunade is not as smart as he is.
> 
> He doesn't have to analyze her fighting style. He just have to dodge/ cut her limbs, trick her and put her in genjutsu, and etc. He's more than capable of tricking her if he tricked Itachi. Now please let's not say she's on par with Itachi in this department.



Right. But you're forgetting Kakashi has had many more battles on panel. Tsunade's suggestions about including a medic on the team, ability to cure poisons quickly, all show her analytical skills. I find it hard to give credit for Kakashi finding Obito's weakness as him being a master of analysis. If anything, your own logic makes him less impressive. He has been hyped as being intelligent, yet Konan was able to find Obito's weakness too, and to a greater detail despite less hype. From what I remember, Kakashi realized that the dimensions were connected between Kamui and Obito's jutsu. After fighting him that long, I would say it's impressive but doesn't make him infinitely smarter than Tsunade.

If you think he can cut her limbs, you're way overestimating his speed. If you think genjutsu will work on someone with the best chakra control in the manga, you're underestimating Tsunade. If you think Kakashi tricking Itachi with the help of 3 other ninjas mean Tsunade would never figure out a way to beat him, you're being stupid again. And Itachi and Tsunade are different ninjas with different fighting styles. You're claiming Kakashi's hype as being intelligent makes him better than Tsunade, but Tsunade's hype as a Sannin is better than Kakashi's. Don't play the hype card. Tsunade's shown herself to be almost as observant and analytical as Kakashi with much less panel time, the difference in intelligence isn't massive. Again, she came up with a potential counter to ST in almost no time at all. I see you're ignoring that feat again. It's a legitimate feat, you trying to discount it doesn't mean I'm overhyping it. It just means you can't find a credible reason to discount it.

-snip-


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## LostSelf (Apr 7, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Double posting because it won't fit into one post (if it's possible to merge them, I'm all ears, or if a mod could do it, that would be great):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And what is Raikage's starting position for you to assume she reacted and got there at the same time? You forgot that Raikage could've been in Rusia, started moving after she did and got there some seconds first. How do you know Kishimoto wanted to show what you're claiming?

He makes Raikage so fast that Naruto has to go RM and he blitzes his golden boy, Sasuke, and you expect him to make Tsunade keep up with something faster yet? No.

Link removed

This is Raikage's starting position,

Link removed

Tsunade starts moving and the Raikage is not even shown.

Link removed

Now since the last time we saw the Raikage he was not moving, not attacking, only Tsunade, Madara was sent far by Mei's suiton. We know for sure that Tsunade was way closer to Madara than the Raikage and considering her fighting style, she might have jumped out inmediately after Madara was sent flying(No Raikage yet) and then he appears from the back. Assuming that he not only moved a much bigger distance than her, he had to come from another side, making his travel bigger yet and considering how Mei's dragon pushed Madara and where Raikage appeared, it looks he moved twice the distance of Tsunade's starting point, after ang got there first.

There's nothing indicating or proving that she can keep up with that speed. The scans provided by you only shows them both attacking, ignoring their initial position and missing Raikage's. We don't know for sure when he moved.

But since we don't know, i rather assume he moved after other than assume Tsunade kept up with the fastest guy that blitzes Sharingan users, with more speed thanks to Onoki just to wank her a bit. Because this goes against all logic in this manga.



> Mei, Gaara after protecting Mei, A after losing concentration were struggling. Onoki managed to slow the Susanoos down. Tsunade managed to punch them out of the battle field. Look at the top left panel. The Susanoos assigned to Tsunade are only JUST returning to the battlefield. I think it's pretty clear Tsunade incapacitated them.



How do you assume they are returning to the battlefield? .



> Such a biased point. Byakugou had almost run out, as shown by the fact that a few burns made it run out. A's bijuu level chakra should surely mean he should still be good to go. You're discrediting the feat again, but you're just using stupid arguments. Why can't you just fact that it happened instead of trying to argue against Kishi's own manga? You can win like that.



Bro, she lost byakugo after she punched aside the fireballs.

Never mind, i'm done with you here. You're too biased here and seeing how a lot of people is telling you the same and you're just being stubborn, debating here with you isj ust a waste of time. Have a good day.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 7, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> And what is Raikage's starting position for you to assume she reacted and got there at the same time? You forgot that Raikage could've been in Rusia, started moving after she did and got there some seconds first. How do you know Kishimoto wanted to show what you're claiming?
> 
> He makes Raikage so fast that Naruto has to go RM and he blitzes his golden boy, Sasuke, and you expect him to make Tsunade keep up with something faster yet? No.
> 
> ...



Are you even looking at the scans I am providing? That's the problem with those of you that believe Kakashi wins, not one of you are willing to acknowledge CANON feats. That in itself is a victory for the Tsunade fans, that the feats she's shown are impressive enough that you need to ignore them to believe Kakashi wins.

Look at the top panel. You see Raikage, and Tsunade is not there. That's really all you need to know. Tsunade caught up from further away to launch a simultaneous attack. That's not Tsunade wank, it's what happened in the manga, and essentially you're just crying that it can't happen because you want to believe Tsunade is slow, so you can convince yourself Kakashi wins. What kind of bullshit? 

I mean, when your bias is leading you to believe it was Mei's suiton that sent Susanoo flying even though he was sent flying BEFORE SHE EVEN LAUNCHED THE SUITON it's pretty clear you've lost. You tried though.



> How do you assume they are returning to the battlefield? .



They are hundreds of metres away and look like they are moving. Where else would they be going other than back to the battlefield. 



> Bro, she lost byakugo after she punched aside the fireballs.
> 
> Never mind, i'm done with you here. You're too biased here and seeing how a lot of people is telling you the same and you're just being stubborn, debating here with you isj ust a waste of time. Have a good day.



You again choose to ignore the finer details of my point. My point is, Tsunade was also nearly out of chakra. You showed it yourself, one more katon was enough to deplete Byakugou. Mei had enough chakra to use a suiton, she just wouldn't make it in time, so it's safe to assume the other kages, especially A who has bijuu level chakra could do similar, or at least dodge. But they didn't. Tsunade got there before any of them reacted. PLEASE, read the fucking manga properly instead of whining about how I'm hyping her up. 

Right. So essentially your argument is "other people agree with me, so I'm right". Considering the blatant ignorance of the feats Tsunade has shown that you are spewing, I'm not surprised you would resort to a weak, childish argument like this.

At least you tried.


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## Jad (Apr 7, 2013)

Can I ask why do you use this as an example to make Tsunade above Ei



> Kakashi has never shown he can jump several metres in the air and bat away 5 fireballs *before A can even react*.



What was Ei exactly suppose to do in that situation against 5 Fireballs? His only got one arm (considering Tsunade had to use two) and it probably didn't dawn on him to jump up and slap 5 fireballs anyways - so bravo on Tsunade for quick thinking. I mean who has the instinct and knowledge to slap *fireballs* away unless you know you can. I don't think it's common knowledge, but that's just me. Anyways it shouldn't be used in an argument, Ei clearly has the speed to do what Tsunade can faster.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 7, 2013)

First of all, I would like to apologize to any A fans thay may think that I'm picking on him, but I'm using him as a basis to compare Tsunade with because he's shown to be a very fast character.



Jad said:


> Can I ask why do you use this as an example to make Tsunade above Ei
> 
> What was Ei exactly suppose to do in that situation against 5 Fireballs? His only got one arm (considering Tsunade had to use two) and it probably didn't dawn on him to jump up and slap 5 fireballs anyways - so bravo on Tsunade for quick thinking. I mean who has the instinct and knowledge to slap *fireballs* away unless you know you can. I don't think it's common knowledge, but that's just me. Anyways it shouldn't be used in an argument, Ei clearly has the speed to do what Tsunade can faster.



Again, with the trying to discredit the feats. I'm sorry, but trying to discredit Tsunade's feat by saying she has 2 arms and knows she can take damage is a weak argument.  I'm saying Tsunade did that before the other Kages could react which is the impressive feat. We already know Byakugou makes her a tank. I'm not saying A or anyone should have batted them away like Tsunade did. But they could at least have dodged, but they didn't even move before Tsunade could do that. Surely you have to acknowledge that as a feat of speed? If you refuse to, you're only damaging your own credibility by purposefully trying to ignore her feats.


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## LostSelf (Apr 7, 2013)

Tsunade has better reflexes than Ei, jad. Don't refuse that .


*Spoiler*: __ 



And i thought the Tsunade trading blows with V2 A was the most epic wank i've ever seen...


 

No disrespect intended for anyone here, though.


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## joshhookway (Apr 7, 2013)

Part 1 Kabuto outsped Tsunade and cut her muscles. Kakashi would use his sharingan to do exactly what Kabuto did. Excepte. Kakashi knows Tsunade is a kage level and would be cautious.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 7, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Tsunade has better reflexes than Ei, jad. Don't refuse that .
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'm sorry but you can't just ignore feats just because you don't like them. I see you have no argument against the feat other than "I don't want to believe it, so it's just Tsunade wank" 

I mean, if the only way you can convince yourself that Kakashi wins is by ignoring her feats, that's cute for you.



Krippy said:


> No, I would call that him not giving a shit due to being an Edo and luring her into a trap



Well, you called it wrong. Nice try though.



joshhookway said:


> Part 1 Kabuto outsped Tsunade and cut her muscles. Kakashi would use his sharingan to do exactly what Kabuto did. Excepte. Kakashi knows Tsunade is a kage level and would be cautious.



Using part I feats when Tsunade has shown much better part II feats again? I thought we were done with this shit. Are all Tsunade haters this stupid?


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 7, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> I'm sorry but you can't just ignore feats just because you don't like them. I see you have no argument against the feat other than "I don't want to believe it, so it's just Tsunade wank"
> 
> I mean, if the only way you can convince yourself that Kakashi wins is by ignoring her feats, that's cute for you.
> 
> ...


What feats are you talking about? She didn't change a single bit whatsoever from Part I to Part II. None of her fights are predicated on speed whatsoever, her only advantage is that she can self-heal while in Byakugou but that means shit in the face of losing a heart or her head. 

Tsunade is slow as shit, she need back up from 4 other kages in order to land a hit on a wood clone. Face it, she gets stomped, outside of her taijutsu, she's all in all worthless and stands absolutely no chance. Kakashi predicts her attacks or uses clones to bait her in the same way Madara did and then ends her, by lopping her head off with raikiri or punching a whole through her heart.

*Ninjutsu: Kakashi*
Tsunade has close to zero feats in terms of raw ninjutsu, not medical ninjutsu. Kakashi has shown to be able to use three elements (water, lightning and earth) in variety of strategies. Furthermore, he has a better grasp of fighting shinobi in a 1 vs. 1 situation, e.g. what he did against Deva Pain for the majority of the fight. His fighting style renders any high physically strong user null for the most part.*

Genjutsu: Kakashi
*Kakashi's rated higher in the category and has the sharingan in order to assist him if he started utilizing genjutsu. Tsunade's defense is probably on par with Jiraiya's defense as they are rated in the same category. However, Kakashi has shown to be able to cast genjutsu that puts him in an entirely different category than those who can only defend against it. *

Taijutsu: Draw
*Tsunade has the slight edge in terms of skill however, that advantage negated by Kakashi's advantage in terms of speed and precognitive abilities due to the sharingan. Her skill is also marginal advantage, it's not a full tier difference. Half a tier difference doesn't necessarily unequivocally result in a stomp, especially given her other drawbacks.*

Intelligence: Kakashi
*Both are roof tiers in this category, however, Kakashi has better feats when it comes to battle strategy and exploiting weaknesses in his opponents strengths, e.g. what he did against Deva Path. Tsunade has shown no level of battle intelligence at least not on this level, she maybe intelligent book wise but she lacks a great deal of tactics, strategy and insight.
*
Speed: Kakashi's advantage*
Tsunade's Speed: 3.5
Kakashi's speed: 4.5+ (since it's been hinted on numerous occasions that he has gotten faster).

This gap becomes even greater when you factor in the sharingan. Madara was never taking the kages seriously at all, so her feats against him when he was just toying around with them don't mean shit. When Madara got serious he cut her in half and killed the rest of the kages. That's merely the simple truth about things. 

Overall, Kakashi decimates her because he's superior to her where it counts. He probably won't ever have physically overbearing strength like the Raikage, Gai or Tsunade but he's probably the most well rounded shinobi in terms of ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu and intelligence you have, with Itachi being the only one who you would mention in the same breath.


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## LostSelf (Apr 7, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> What feats are you talking about? She didn't change a single bit whatsoever from Part I to Part II. None of her fights are predicated on speed whatsoever, her only advantage is that she can self-heal while in Byakugou but that means shit in the face of losing a heart or her head.



Tsunade blitzing Madara, Tsunade moving almost at the same speed as a faster version of the V2 Raikage, Tsunade reacting to fireballs because she had better reflexes and speed than the others including the man that dodges Amaterasu and not because all the damage she was taken was being healed and she was in better condition, Tsunade being smarter than Kakashi, Tsunade being better in taijutsu than Gai, Tsunade having electricity inmunity, etc...

You know, those feats that i am ignoring .


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 7, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> What feats are you talking about? She didn't change a single bit whatsoever from Part I to Part II. None of her fights are predicated on speed whatsoever, her only advantage is that she can self-heal while in Byakugou but that means shit in the face of losing a heart or her head.



Part I: blitzes Manda and Orochimaru
Part II: jumps enormous distances in a second to reach Pain, blitzes Madara, moves before other Kages can react, attacks in unison with V2 lightened A, you get the point

The fact you're trying to sell the "she hasn't changed since part I so part I feats still counts" argument is a bit pathetic.



> Tsunade is slow as shit, she need back up from 4 other kages in order to land a hit on a wood clone. Face it, she gets stomped, outside of her taijutsu, she's all in all worthless and stands absolutely no chance. Kakashi predicts her attacks or uses clones to bait her in the same way Madara did and then ends her, by lopping her head off with raikiri or punching a whole through her heart.



She knocked out his right side without backup though. Predicting just won't work on elite ninjas, at least not to the extent you're talking about otherwise Madara wouldn't have been fucking blitzed, how many times do I have to say it? The clones again I question whether it would paralyze her, and if it did, whether it would paralyze her long enough for Kakashi to land a hit, considering the real Kakashi will be a good distance away.



> *Ninjutsu: Kakashi*
> Tsunade has close to zero feats in terms of raw ninjutsu, not medical ninjutsu. Kakashi has shown to be able to use three elements (water, lightning and earth) in variety of strategies. Furthermore, he has a better grasp of fighting shinobi in a 1 vs. 1 situation, e.g. what he did against Deva Pain for the majority of the fight. His fighting style renders any high physically strong user null for the most part.


*

I'm sorry but if you're trying to discredit Tsunade's by saying she got beaten by Madara, you can't praise Kakashi for losing to Deva Pain. Ninjutsu of Kakashi's level is going to work on Tsunade's Byakugou, I mean even with Byakugou almost running out katons did very little.




			Genjutsu: Kakashi
		
Click to expand...

*


> Kakashi's rated higher in the category and has the sharingan in order to assist him if he started utilizing genjutsu. Tsunade's defense is probably on par with Jiraiya's defense as they are rated in the same category. However, Kakashi has shown to be able to cast genjutsu that puts him in an entirely different category than those who can only defend against it.


*

Tsunade's chakra control is above any other ninja. I'm sorry but if you think Kakashi's level of genjutsu is relevant in this fight against ninja of Tsunade's level, you're severely underestimating her and weakening your credibility.




			Taijutsu: Draw
		
Click to expand...

*


> Tsunade has the slight edge in terms of skill however, that advantage negated by Kakashi's advantage in terms of speed and precognitive abilities due to the sharingan. Her skill is also marginal advantage, it's not a full tier difference. Half a tier difference doesn't necessarily unequivocally result in a stomp, especially given her other drawbacks.


*

I've already talked about the precognitive abilities. He has shown himself to be hit before, by ninjas with speed feats not as good as Tsunade's, at that, so... 




			Intelligence: Kakashi
		
Click to expand...

*


> Both are roof tiers in this category, however, Kakashi has better feats when it comes to battle strategy and exploiting weaknesses in his opponents strengths, e.g. what he did against Deva Path. Tsunade has shown no level of battle intelligence at least not on this level, she maybe intelligent book wise but she lacks a great deal of tactics, strategy and insight.
> *
> Speed: Kakashi's advantage*
> Tsunade's Speed: 3.5
> Kakashi's speed: 4.5+ (since it's been hinted on numerous occasions that he has gotten faster).



I've already mentioned her speed feats, but Kakashi has had a lot more battles to show his feats in intelligence, but considering you're saying she's useless and only relies on self regeneration, what use is Kakashi's analytical skills anyway, using your own logic? I'm not saying Tsunade is smarter, but she came up with a possible counter to ST immediately after hearing about it, something Kakashi couldn't, so I would say Tsunade is roughly similar in intelligence levels.



> This gap becomes even greater when you factor in the sharingan. Madara was never taking the kages seriously at all, so her feats against him when he was just toying around with them don't mean shit. When Madara got serious he cut her in half and killed the rest of the kages. That's merely the simple truth about things.



Just as he would any other ninja. But he wanted to beat them without spending much effort to exert his superiority complex, and it's canon he couldn't and was cornered, BY TSUNADE. So, to discredit her feats is stupid and discredits your entire argument. 



> Overall, Kakashi decimates her because he's superior to her where it counts. He probably won't ever have physically overbearing strength like the Raikage, Gai or Tsunade but he's probably the most well rounded shinobi in terms of ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu and intelligence you have, with Itachi being the only one who you would mention in the same breath.



But against ninjas like Tsunade, and her skill set, most of Kakashi's arsenal does nothing. So, you can list all the shit he can do, but they won't work against Byakugou.

The very fact you have to discount Tsunade's feats to convince yourself Kakashi can win is a tacit agreement that Tsunade wins. 

Tsunade has shown herself to be an elite ninja, no matter how much you try to deny canon feats in the manga, so I would strongly suggest you actually accept the feats instead of kicking and screaming as to why they don't count, because it makes you look insecure and uncertain of Kakashi's ability to win, the fact you're basing his victory through ignoring Tsunade's recent feats, and only acknowledging her part I feats to convince yourself how how a part II Kakashi wins.



TheIronMan said:


> Tsunade blitzing Madara, Tsunade moving almost at the same speed as a faster version of the V2 Raikage, Tsunade reacting to fireballs because she had better reflexes and speed than the others including the man that dodges Amaterasu and not because all the damage she was taken was being healed and she was in better condition, Tsunade being smarter than Kakashi, Tsunade being better in taijutsu than Gai, Tsunade having electricity inmunity, etc...
> 
> You know, those feats that i am ignoring .



Well, why didn't A react then? 

I see you're trying the straw man argument now. I never said Tsunade is smarter. I said she is similar in analytical intelligence. Tsunade is better in taijutsu than Gai, and I stand by it. I never said she has immunity to electricity. I said it's possible she would have immunity to electrical paralysis due to the fact she survived and kept fighting through shit that should paralyze you. You NEED to do better than this.


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## bleakwinter (Apr 7, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke's numbs, RKB stuns. Two different things.



Sasuke's jutsu numb's because it was both stated and shown that it numbs.The same logic doesn't apply to RKB, as it's after effects were never elaborated upon on-panel. RKB is sorely lacking in feats, as it was only used once and wasn't extrapolated upon at that. 



> Here's .
> 
> This is what RKB is meant for and that period is what Kakashi will be waiting for. And Kakashi didn't attack Asura because he knew the backup was there and wanted to save chakra.



That stun gun description should therefore apply to every Raiton jutsu in the manga since they're all electricity right? False. There are several Raiton techniques in the manga that do not paralyze at all. When Kishimoto wanted to show the readers that an electrical technique is designed to paralyze, he explains it on-panel very clearly. Here are examples:

Raikage's Raiton armor paralyzing Madara (1)
Tsunade's electrical Ranshinsho paralyzing Kabuto
Sasuke's Raiton paralyzing Yamato 

If anything, the description of a stun gun that you posted in actually most similar to Tsunade's Ranshinsho, in which Kabuto literally states word-for-word  that it uses electricity to scramble the opponent's nervous system and cause confusion(1). Even then, Kabuto was still able to overcome having his nervous system completely messed up. The fact that you're saying Tsunade cannot overcome a paralysis (Which wasn't even stated to be such) with her regeneration technique active that I've already proven lasts for a negligible period of time doesn't make much sense at all. 



Hasan said:


> Kakashi said he was ready to impale either of the two with Raikiri, most likely Shuradō. Knowing that he was at considerable distance, and hiding under the rubble, the effect of Raiton Kage Bunshin lasted long enough for Kakashi to achieve that.



"he was ready to impale either of the two with Raikiri". I don't see that statement anywhere in that scan you posted. He said he had a back-up plan, which could mean anything really.


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## LostSelf (Apr 7, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Well, why didn't A react then?
> 
> I see you're trying the straw man argument now. I never said Tsunade is smarter. I said she is similar in analytical intelligence. Tsunade is better in taijutsu than Gai, and I stand by it. I never said she has immunity to electricity. I said it's possible she would have immunity to electrical paralysis due to the fact she survived and kept fighting through shit that should paralyze you. You NEED to do better than this.



Don't let my comments hurt you. I'm making fun of the wank here but to have fun, you know, in MY opinion, all this "feats" are not very accurate or are highly exaggerated. And like i said, if you think i'm denying her "feats" just because her feats are inconsistents or have a "hole" in those supposed speed feats while it defies logic, then we have nothing to debate here.

Her "speed" feats, this big and amazing one that let her get to Madara a second or less after the Raikage has a big flaw. That flaw is that we DON'T know when, where or how the Raikage moved. We know for sure that he appeared from behind, therefore he traveled a longer distance (Don't say "Did you saw my scan?" because i did). But we don't know his position, we don't know if Tsunade jumped after Madara right after he was sent flying and Raikage and Onoki went after, traveling a longer distance to get Madara's back.

Now, if you choose to assume that they both moved at the same time without being 100% proven AND when logic clearly says that V1 Raikage is out of her speed, V2 much more yet, V2 enlightened WAY much more, then we have nothing to discuss because you will have a Tsunade with a fucking speed capable of blitzing anyone, going against Manga protrayals and LOGIC, and i will have an average girl in speed. Then we would be wasting our time.

She's not similar in analytical ability with Kakashi. No and just no. The guy trolled geniuses that had Hokage mindsets at a young age, figured out Obito's weakness twice AND has been praised by his inteligence all over the story while Tsunade's only feat pales in comparison.

And again, and the biggest no, probably near as her being almost as fast as V2 Ei, is her being better than Gai in taijutsu. Better than the man that creates huge tigers with a punch, disarms swordsmen that keeps up with Bee with ease and forces someone of Obito's caliber to phaze without even touching him, let's notice how Obito schooled Naruto, yet he couldn't with Gai, Tsunade is not as good as Gai in taijutsu.

And i repeat, agonizing after a deadly hit doesn't mean she cannot be paralyzed by the Raiton. Even if just for one second, i bet she can be.

And that's my point of viiew.

Oh, why didn't A reacted? Let's see, Tsunade had Byakugo ALL the fight right? The other kages didn't. Tsunade was healing the damage all the fight while the other kages couldn't. Now, shouldn't this, even if Byakugo ran out in her last move, have her in a much, but MUCH better condition than the others? I bet she would, because again, she having more reflexes than the man who casually dodges an instant attack defies all logic when there are much better explanations to her doing so. Byakugo helping have a much better condition in the end being one.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 7, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Part I: blitzes Manda and Orochimaru
> Part II: jumps enormous distances in a second to reach Pain, blitzes Madara, moves before other Kages can react, attacks in unison with V2 lightened A, you get the point
> 
> The fact you're trying to sell the "she hasn't changed since part I so part I feats still counts" argument is a bit pathetic.


Yeah, you're right, let's forget the fact that Orochimaru was wounded, couldn't use his arms and had a fever*—* maybe it's just me, but having feats against wounded characters don't really count.



narut0ninjafan said:


> She knocked out his right side without backup though. Predicting just won't work on elite ninjas, at least not to the extent you're talking about otherwise Madara wouldn't have been fucking blitzed, how many times do I have to say it? The clones again I question whether it would paralyze her, and if it did, whether it would paralyze her long enough for Kakashi to land a hit, considering the real Kakashi will be a good distance away.


Raiton Kage Bunshin would have paralyzed her enough time for Kakashi to lop of her head and/or jab her in the heart with raikiri. When we saw it in it's first usage, Kakashi's RKB paralyzed Asura Path and gave him enough time for someone of Chouza's speed enough time to hit him. 

As we saw against Jiraiya, Pain's reaction time is probably the best reaction time and if he was unable to move out of the way, then Tsunade is going to unable to counter the effects of the RKB, either. Shinobi who are able to utilize the raiton element like the Raikage, Darui, Bee or Sasuke have a chance at neutralizing the technique, but Tsunade who has shown to be rather dull without any element techniques at all doesn't stand a chance.



narut0ninjafan said:


> I'm sorry but if you're trying to discredit Tsunade's by saying she got beaten by Madara, you can't praise Kakashi for losing to Deva Pain. Ninjutsu of Kakashi's level is going to work on Tsunade's Byakugou, I mean even with Byakugou almost running out katons did very little.


Actually, I can, because my point is about comparing the two characters effectively, Kakashi brings far more to the table offensively than Tsunade does. Kakashi's raiton element also circumvents much of Tsunade's natural defense (durability) as it paralyzes or cuts through and through. He's a much more well-rounded shinobi if you include all of his other techniques.



narut0ninjafan said:


> Tsunade's chakra control is above any other ninja. I'm sorry but if you think Kakashi's level of genjutsu is relevant in this fight against ninja of Tsunade's level, you're severely underestimating her and weakening your credibility.


It was noted at some point in the manga that Sakura would be able to surpass Tsunade eventually because she was a genjutsu type further discounting any notion that Tsunade is able to utilize genjutsu at all. The fight won't come down to genjutsu but it's an obvious advantage that Kakashi has.



narut0ninjafan said:


> I've already talked about the precognitive abilities. He has shown himself to be hit before, by ninjas with speed feats not as good as Tsunade's, at that, so...


Tsunade has no speed feats, so I'm not sure what you are talking about...



narut0ninjafan said:


> I've already mentioned her speed feats, but Kakashi has had a lot more battles to show his feats in intelligence, but considering you're saying she's useless and only relies on self regeneration, what use is Kakashi's analytical skills anyway, using your own logic? I'm not saying Tsunade is smarter, but she came up with a possible counter to ST immediately after hearing about it, something Kakashi couldn't, so I would say Tsunade is roughly similar in intelligence levels.


Kakashi's battle strategy > Tsunade's battle strategies, that's all that matters. She has no manner of telling the difference between a kage bunshin or not, so she'll fall into a trap faster. Kakashi's strategy is mostly a usage of bunshins and he's landed them on much more difficult opponents than Tsunade would be.



narut0ninjafan said:


> Just as he would any other ninja. But he wanted to beat them without spending much effort to exert his superiority complex, and it's canon he couldn't and was cornered, BY TSUNADE. So, to discredit her feats is stupid and discredits your entire argument.


The entire fight between the kages and the Madara rested on Oonoki's fighting spirit, no one counted on Tsunade to win it for them. She had her moment to shine but Madara held back a great deal of his power as he has been doing against the alliance now. The moment he got serious he cut her in half, he was never cornered, it was just killing time. Unlike Madara, Kakashi will take the fight seriously and he will lop her head off and/or crush heart. 



narut0ninjafan said:


> But against ninjas like Tsunade, and her skill set, most of Kakashi's arsenal does nothing. So, you can list all the shit he can do, but they won't work against Byakugou.
> 
> The very fact you have to discount Tsunade's feats to convince yourself Kakashi can win is a tacit agreement that Tsunade wins.


Tsunade has literally no skill set, outside of healing people and having some time of invulnerability, she really has no offense skill set that would harm Kakashi. She can't hit him, as Kakashi is faster. She doesn't have ninjutsu that would work against him? Does she even have any ninjutsu besides medical ninjutsu? Byakugou is a great technique, it leaves her invulnerable for a short period of time, but it's not going to grow her another head/brain or heart for you. Its basis is the users chakra once either of those locations are hit or injured, Tsunade dies as she won't be able to keep her technique up.

I'm not discounting anything, she hasn't shown anything worth mentioning, Kakashi's much faster than her and has better speed feats than her. He was able to blindside Kakuzu, who didn't even sense him approaching. Kakuzu's half a tier slower than Kakashi, Tsunade is shown to be at least a full tier slower, that's almost ridiculous. All Kakashi has to do is distract her with a clone and blindside her with a raikiri. It's painfully obvious that her fight against Madara is showed everyone how inexplicably one-dimensional she is. The only ones worth mentioning are the Tsuchikage and Mizukage, everyone else performed like shit.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 7, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Don't let my comments hurt you. I'm making fun of the wank here but to have fun, you know, in MY opinion, all this "feats" are not very accurate or are highly exaggerated. And like i said, if you think i'm denying her "feats" just because her feats are inconsistents or have a "hole" in those supposed speed feats while it defies logic, then we have nothing to debate here.
> 
> Her "speed" feats, this big and amazing one that let her get to Madara a second or less after the Raikage has a big flaw. That flaw is that we DON'T know when, where or how the Raikage moved. We know for sure that he appeared from behind, therefore he traveled a longer distance (Don't say "Did you saw my scan?" because i did). But we don't know his position, we don't know if Tsunade jumped after Madara right after he was sent flying and Raikage and Onoki went after, traveling a longer distance to get Madara's back.



Could you PLEASE take another look at the top panel first if you really did see the scan? Tsunade isn't in the panel, yet A is.

Anyway, Tsunade couldn't have jumped straight after he was sent flying because Madara sent a katon, which Mei countered first.



> Now, if you choose to assume that they both moved at the same time without being 100% proven AND when logic clearly says that V1 Raikage is out of her speed, V2 much more yet, V2 enlightened WAY much more, then we have nothing to discuss because you will have a Tsunade with a fucking speed capable of blitzing anyone, going against Manga protrayals and LOGIC, and i will have an average girl in speed. Then we would be wasting our time.



You have a point but that doesn't mean we should ignore the feat just because it makes Tsunade look impressive, which is essentially what you're doing. Even if you don't want to accept the feat, you just simply cannot call Tsunade too slow to ever land a hit when there's all this evidence to the contrary.



> She's not similar in analytical ability with Kakashi. No and just no. The guy trolled geniuses that had Hokage mindsets at a young age, figured out Obito's weakness twice AND has been praised by his inteligence all over the story while Tsunade's only feat pales in comparison.



Good for him, but Obito's sharingan is connected to his, so it would naturally make it a bit easier. And Konan figured out his weakness to a MUCH greater depth than Kakashi did, yet I doubt you're going to just say Konan is smarter than Kakashi are you?

Tsunade's feat was she planned a counter to ST, but Kakashi didn't. That is to be praised right? Yes, Kakashi has more fights and therefore more feats, but it's a bit of a stretch to just say that makes him way too smart for Tsunade.



> And again, and the biggest no, probably near as her being almost as fast as V2 Ei, is her being better than Gai in taijutsu. Better than the man that creates huge tigers with a punch, disarms swordsmen that keeps up with Bee with ease and forces someone of Obito's caliber to phaze without even touching him, let's notice how Obito schooled Naruto, yet he couldn't with Gai, Tsunade is not as good as Gai in taijutsu.



I think the Gai discussion is a different topic, but: 

1) So what if he can create tigers? Tsunade is still stronger
2) Good for Gai to keep up with Bee, but Tsunade kept up with A too
3) She forced Madara into using a Susanoo clone

At the VERY BEST for Gai, he's equal to her in taijutsu.



> And i repeat, agonizing after a deadly hit doesn't mean she cannot be paralyzed by the Raiton. Even if just for one second, i bet she can be.
> 
> And that's my point of viiew.



Not too sure what you're talking about, but if you're talking about the blades in the spines, against the Susanoo clones we have no idea if she agonized, but I assume she took a hit on purpose to fight back and counterattack since she could tank it (which is why A called her careless). if you're talking about the first blade, it's pretty clear Tsunade was playing dead to try and give the kages a chance to attack.



> Oh, why didn't A reacted? Let's see, Tsunade had Byakugo ALL the fight right? The other kages didn't. Tsunade was healing the damage all the fight while the other kages couldn't. Now, shouldn't this, even if Byakugo ran out in her last move, have her in a much, but MUCH better condition than the others? I bet she would, because again, she having more reflexes than the man who casually dodges an instant attack defies all logic when there are much better explanations to her doing so. Byakugo helping have a much better condition in the end being one.



(Again sorry to pick on A)

A has Bijuu levels of chakra. He was just using his raiton shroud so I doubt he was spent. He clearly could have done something but didn't. If we look at Madara's attempt to hit Tsunade after Byakugou runs out, the kages notice the attack and A and Onoki react to it. Why didn't they react to the katon? If you look at it from a logical and unbiased point, surely you must come to the conclusion they didn't have time to (since I assume the katons were faster) otherwise they at least would've dodged.

EDIT:



Ryuzaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but you are either trolling, hate Tsunade, or just EXTREMELY stupid. Read back to see her speed feats.

The fact you're relying on databook stats ABOVE feats is bad enough, but then you go on to say the Tsuchikage and MIZUKAGE were the ones who didn't perform like shit. Get the fuck out. 

And where was Onoki's fighting spirit in the beginning? Tsunade was the key to start to do anything to Madara, and without her, Onoki wouldn't even had any chakra to do anything anyway.

I really don't know where to start with such bullshit, so I'm not going to waste my time if you're going to ignore her feats, use databook stats and use an argument which essentially come to "Kakashi has more jutsus therefore he wins". I mean, if a character is slower, does that mean they can NEVER land a hit? What the hell? Hidan landed a hit on Asuma fine, even though using your own precious databook stats Asuma is faster. You're using the "A>B, B>C therefore A>C" argument too? Wow.


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## Okodi (Apr 7, 2013)

Tsunade would win. Even though Kakashi has a greater speed(blitzing), Tsunade has a great reaction speed(dodging). And even if Kakashi uses Raikiri, Tsunade would still be able to redirect the attack and hence making the attack hit her in a less vital place or avert it from hitting her head.

By doing so she would then be able to heal about every attack that Kakashi can throw at her. And with Tsunade being the Hokage should would probably know a bit more about Kakashi's abilities then he would know about hers since she can acces the files on every ninja in the village that isn't a root ANBU.

Kakashi is a strong ninja, but Tsunade still edges him out if Kamui is restricted. I doubt that Tsunade would have any problems healing through 6 of Kakashi's Raikiris and if Kakashi were to get close to her, he would suffer from  which is something Kabuto could deal with since he was a remarkable medical ninja. Kakashi would however struggle with the BPD and she can use chakra scaples as well to damage Kakashi in close combat.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 7, 2013)

Tsunade healed the damage she took from Susano, Ay didn't take any damage to begin with because he was dodging and catching what he couldn't dodge.

Byakugo doesn't prevent Tsunade from becoming fatigued, because she was beginning to tire out against her set of clones (which we learn from Ay's "*getting* sloppy" comment). Ay on the otherhand has chakra levels comparable to Killer Bee.

If anything Ay was in *better* condition than Tsunade, and seeing as she passed out right after incercepting the fireballs, it doesn't look like she was in better condition than the other Kages either. Kishi had her react first people, it may seem weird to some, but it happened. It is a solid feat for her.

On another note, while he still has impressive reflexes in base, Tsunade arrived at the same time Ay did to stop Naruto and Bee. She *only * seemed to find his speed incredible when he activated his Raiton shroud. She didn't seem to find anything strange about keeping up with Base Ay, which is who she beat to the Katons.

Just how I saw things at least.


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## Hasan (Apr 7, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> "he was ready to impale either of the two with Raikiri". I don't see that statement anywhere in that scan you posted. He said he had a back-up plan, which could mean anything really.



He says he had a plan prepared, _as he cancels the Raikiri_ that you can clearly see in his palm.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 7, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Tsunade blitzing Madara, Tsunade moving almost at the same speed as a faster version of the V2 Raikage, Tsunade reacting to fireballs because she had better reflexes and speed than the others including the man that dodges Amaterasu and not because all the damage she was taken was being healed and she was in better condition, Tsunade being smarter than Kakashi, Tsunade being better in taijutsu than Gai, Tsunade having electricity inmunity, etc...
> 
> You know, those feats that i am ignoring .


Yeah, I'd be shocked if he had an IQ that was greater than 50.


narut0ninjafan said:


> I'm sorry, but you are either trolling, hate Tsunade, or just EXTREMELY stupid. Read back to see her speed feats.
> 
> The fact you're relying on databook stats ABOVE feats is bad enough, but then you go on to say the Tsuchikage and MIZUKAGE were the ones who didn't perform like shit. *Get the fuck out.*
> 
> ...


I am actually a Tsunade fan, most people know that here but when she's outclassed, she's outclassed. I don't have a problem throwing characters under the bus when they deserved to be. You're the one who is grasping straws here, ignoring the obvious speed advantage Kakashi has, then dismissing the sharingan, ninjutsu advantages he has and not to mention his entire fighting style.

Anyone that read the manga knows that the only ones that mattered was Oonoki and Mei provided so help. The Raikage was shit and so was the Hokage, aside from breaking a piece of Susano'o she accomplished nothing. At least Oonoki was a game changer, the rest of them were one-dimensional wastes of panel time except for Mizukage, she wasn't one-dimensional like the others.

*Lets see here, in the debate against me:*

> You haven't proven her speed feats at all.
> Tsunade fans can use databook information, but when I do it, it's "stupid." now that's really stupid.

*Why she's not winning this fight:*

> Kakashi has more jutsus, so therefore he wins because Tsunade has 0 offensive ninjutsu.
> By feats and databook, Kakashi is much faster than Tsunade is and has the sharingan to boot.
> Kakashi's fighting style > Tsunade's fighting style.
> Kakashi has mid-range/long-range jutsu that can paralyze her while a clone goes in for the kill.
> Kakashi has the sharingan to predict her movements.
> Tsunade cannot tell the difference between Kakashi's clones

Yeah, she's not going to land a hit at all, Tsunade is roughly as fast as Beginning of Part 1 Naruto, Hidan and etc. Asuma was taken down by Hidan, *eventually*, but it wasn't because Asuma lacked speed, they were more terrified that he was immortal. Also, Asuma doesn't posses the sharingan which is an immense part of Kakashi's arsenal, so making that comparison is a waste.

Ahh, the idiotic lengths some of you fans would go to is mildly amusing at  times.


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## LostSelf (Apr 7, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Could you PLEASE take another look at the top panel first if you really did see the scan? Tsunade isn't in the panel, yet A is.
> 
> Anyway, Tsunade couldn't have jumped straight after he was sent flying because Madara sent a katon, which Mei countered first.



Let's go by parts. I explained this part by part and very detailed but the fucking page refreshed and i lost everything. You're focusing on that scan only, taking it from reference WHERE the Raikage appears. let's make it simple.

Part 1: The Raikage was behind Tsunade the last time we see him.

Part 2: Tsunade begins to move. Leaving the Kages behind. Therefore, creating some good distance between her and the Raikage.

Notice how ANY kage made a move or attacked, nor Mei, or Gaara, so we can assume the Raikage and Onoki didn't as well. Notice as well how Madara calls her slower than the Raikage. Note, this doesn't mean she's near him in speed either.

Part 3 and 4: Once Madara attacks, the Kages inmediately begins their assault.

Now, we saw Tsunade creating soem distance between her and the Raikage, we saw the dragon creating even MORE distance between Madara and Ei AND we saw Ei coming from behind and seeing how Madara was still moving backwards because of the impact, h*e kept moving back while the Raikage attempted the attack from behind.*

Conclusion? The Raikage traversed a much, but much longer distance than her and he began to move after her more likely. So Tsunade landed a bit after them, but with diferent movements and moving first than him AND a much closer distance.

Not 100% proven because we don't know if the Raikage moved right after Tsunade, but Mei and the others standing still until Madara attacked implies that he didn't either. Not 100% proven because we don't know if Tsunade jumped right after (Madara's katon was countered by Mei's suiton, so she could've jumped and considering her mindset, i bet she did). But going back to manga portrayals and logic, since the Raikage moved fast, those assumptions of him moving a longer distance after Tsunade holds more power than Tsunade moving at the same time and landing just a second after.

Man, if this doesn't explain my point then i don't know how.



> You have a point but that doesn't mean we should ignore the feat just because it makes Tsunade look impressive, which is essentially what you're doing. Even if you don't want to accept the feat, you just simply cannot call Tsunade too slow to ever land a hit when there's all this evidence to the contrary.



I'm not trying to make her look unimpressive or anything near that. That speed "feat" is just very unclear to assume something that goes outside of the Manga's logic, where a V1 Raikage is much faster than her, let alone a lightened V2 one. My examples of why are above.

She's not slow to ever land a hit. But she's not on par even with V1 Raikage to assume something bigger.



> Good for him, but Obito's sharingan is connected to his, so it would naturally make it a bit easier. And Konan figured out his weakness to a MUCH greater depth than Kakashi did, yet I doubt you're going to just say Konan is smarter than Kakashi are you?



I guess you forgot that Kakashi didn't know who was behind the mask when he figured out why Obito wasn't using his Rinnegan to attack. And you forgot how Konan spent all her time gathering paper, years if i'm not mistaken, so she didn't discovered that IN the fight. She had a long time to do that.

And of course, they both were of the same gang.



> Tsunade's feat was she planned a counter to ST, but Kakashi didn't. That is to be praised right? Yes, Kakashi has more fights and therefore more feats, but it's a bit of a stretch to just say that makes him way too smart for Tsunade.



Kakashi had basically no knowledge about Pain in that fight and yet he figured out Deva's 5 second interval and he sent Chouji to tell Tsunade what happened and the secrets of those two paths. He discovered this alone, Tsunade figured that out when intel came to her. I never said he was way too smart for Tsunade. But he's surely notable smarter.

I think the Gai discussion is a different topic, but: 



> 1) So what if he can create tigers? Tsunade is still stronger



Strenght =/= Taijutsu skill.



> 2) Good for Gai to keep up with Bee, but Tsunade kept up with A too



No she didn't.



> 3) She forced Madara into using a Susanoo clone



Not really. Madara lured her into a trap to kill her and the same Madara was saying how shit the FIVE of them are compared to Hashirama, a man that was forced into a clone will say something like this? Of course not. Madara played with the kages all the time.

And of course. Madara especifically stated that it happened because it was FIVE vs ONE.



> At the VERY BEST for Gai, he's equal to her in taijutsu.



Not at all. Brute strenght does not equal taijutsu skills. Gai has the superior feats in that department. Kisame and Obito are good examples of Gai's taijutsu prowess. Tsunade, on the other hand, has not shown taijutsu skills other than linear punches, kicks and some of agility. This is not enough to match what Gai as done.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 7, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Not at all. Brute strenght does not equal taijutsu skills. Gai has the superior feats in that department. Kisame and Obito are good examples of Gai's taijutsu prowess. Tsunade, on the other hand, has not shown taijutsu skills other than linear punches, kicks and some of agility. This is not enough to match what Gai as done.



-snip- did he actually say that Tsunade > Gai in terms of taijutsu. Has she ever even pulled out a weapon?!


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## Jad (Apr 7, 2013)

Time to get Factulized, you have released the beast within me.



narut0ninjafan said:


> Again, you're reaching too far with the fact she has 2 blades in her. She can AFFORD to have 2 blades in her, so of course it makes sense that she'd take a hit to land a easy counterattack. The fact that she and Onoki are the only Kages that defeated the clones and weren't defeated themselves speaks volumes too. But I guess you'll ignore that part.



You are saying her fighting style revolves around being impaled and getting hit in order for her to fight back against the Sasuno’s, even though she has never demonstrated this fighting style before. Ok, it seems understandable, at the same time there is room to claim that she couldn’t dodge those attacks. Although perhaps you could form an argument where Ei said “You are fighting slopping” in which he noted her bad fighting style. So in this fight between Kakashi and Tsunade, it seems Tsunade will be at the receiving end of his blows because Tsunade intends for it to be that way. 

Might I add that Tsunade did not defeat a Sasuno clone, rather she knocked one over, you can’t add what you believe happened off-panel otherwise we are within your own created fan-fiction. Also Mei did liquefy a Sasuno’s hand/forearm, which on-panel showed she did more damage than any of the other Kages [1].



> Again, you keep talking about skills as if Kakashi will never be hit. The second he hits her, he's open for a counterattack. That's what Byakugou is for, so she can take the first hit (like she did against the Susanoo clones). And no, the Sharingan does predict the "course" of the attack but it's never helped in that way against Kage level shinobi, just against Naruto's linear style. Where is your basis on Tsunade being a linear fighter coming from? The fact she uses Taijutsu? Madara's Sharingan didn't stop Tsunade blitzing him.



You keep suggesting Tsunade is going to counter-attack. I have seen her counter-attack but be on the receiving end of most of the attack only once. That was against Kabuto where you see here he tags her with his technique and she shoulder brushes him off [2].

Also the example I used between Kyuubi Naruto and Base Sasuke cannot be refuted. It just goes to show that even when you are up against a faster opponent, with Sharingan pre-cog you can still dodge linear attacks, which Tsunade deals. Kakashi is faster than Tsunade, has better reflexes than her purely based around his practice with the Sharingan and achieving 3-tomoe, and the fact that he can slice her in half much like Kabuto could to Itachi [].

I say Tsunade is a linear fighting because of these points: (_I typed this up before and tweaked it for Kakashi_)

*Examples of Tsunade Fighting*

These examples show attacks from Tsunade while she is in the air of some form, or leaping in for an attack, which is dangerous against someone who can attack while you are vulnerable in such a state.

1. Forward jump/leap Punch
2. Forward jump punch in the air
3. Axe jump kick

I mean countering any of her moves while she is in the air will spell royal trouble.  Especially if Kakashi is the faster of the two. Her Taijutsu has no versatility, it's one punch and her leaning in. Almost like rushing in hoping to hit. I mean in this scan, she isn't even looking at Kabuto, she leans in too far that her head is looking at the ground, almost like she won't see a counter attack coming if someone dodged it.  Again here, she is looking on the ground - couldn't trace Kabuto's movments. She isn't counter ready with her fighting style. It definitely isn't recommended in any Mixed Martial Arts schools I can tell you that much. Her technique revolves around getting one good shot in while taking multiple shots in turn from how you explain it.

Here she couldn't even block an attack while her muscles were ripped, she didn't even counter. Plus all that technique did was to lower her strength. Especially if you consider after that she was able to get up and hit Kabuto. Almost like nothing happened to her, so it can't be really used as an excuse for inability to perform, here and here. Even here she looks away with her hands up, thinking she can block the attack.

Her reaction from an attack at sort of a distance was pretty poor as well, being grabbed by Orochimaru's tongue. This was also after her Taijutsu fight with Kabuto.

Again, just a very linear, direct punch, Orochimaru and Kabuto effortlessly dodging her breaking the wall. Almost intimidating. I mean you guys always say she can catch someone being off balanced or jumping in the air while she punches the ground. Here is the scan showing that very same scenario, same with her dropping an axe kick on the ground. Nothing.

Here she is just running, no disappearing or appearing act, very linear.

Kakashi has shown the ability to tag V2 Jinchiruuki’s multiple times not once but twice, all of whom are faster than Tsunade considering they attacked Bee and Shrouded Naruto quite easily here and here.



> She still blitzed him. You can't say just because it was a clone the speed feat doesn't count. He was PUSHED into using the clone, meaning if he could have done otherwise he would have. But he couldn't because he got blitzed. Deal with it.



You’re taking that panel way too seriously because it ended with a failure on Tsunade’s part. Madara wanted to get caught hence he came out of the ground sword in hand stabbing her, than gloating about how he was the only one to see through Hashirama’s Mokuton clones [4]. If you haven’t noticed he wasn’t taking them seriously, the moment he wanted to collect the Kyuubi he did so and left them battered and bruised on deaths door. He ALWAYS had the ability to beat them like children. I don’t know if he was PUSHED into using a clone, but if he was, it was because of the collective group of the Kage’s effort having knocked him down in the ground/dirt. 




> If he goes for a Taijutsu skirmish he will lose. Simple. If you think a Raiton kunai can do what 2 enormous Susanoo blades couldn't, I don't know what to say. And like I said, the split second he attacks leaves him open. Tsunade has shown insane reflexes and very good speed, just because you ignore the feats it doesn't mean they don't apply.



I have only seen one feat of her counter-attacking, that was against Kabuto, and if failed with her being at the receiving end of the scuffle. Can you show me Tsunade insane reflexes?



> She can still fight with 2 blades in her, while regenerating so I fail to see your point.


She has shown to fight with two blades in her but not for an extensive period of time, meaning she needs to take time to heal. The moment she starts to regenerate is what I am discussing and if you  that is what I am saying. When she starts regenerating she is OUT of the fight and stops moving or doing anything of value - on-panel of course. Which in a fight can mean the difference, and Kakashi master tactician will take advantage of that and assault her even further. Also, Kakashi has split entire Giant Boulders without even passing through them entirely with his Raiton Kunai [5], meaning he can do the same with Tsunade. Also, Kabuto was able to  with just the palm of his hand. Kakashi has a much sharper version of Medical Palm and has the accuracy through Sharingan to do so.


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## Jad (Apr 7, 2013)

> I don't know how many times I have to say this, but clone feints are useless, if you can't finish the opponent off. I doubt Kakashi's genjutsu will have any affect on Tsunade, who has probably the best chakra control in the manga based off the fact she's the best medical ninja in the world.



Well, I don’t remember Kakashi having any substantial Sharingan genjutsu use other than knocking out ANBU agents. Clone feints on the other hand are not useless, his used them to catch people off guard, especially when he comes out of the ground. Here you can see Pain couldn’t avoid it rather relies on the timing of his Shinra Tensei [6]. Even than Kakashi had a back-up plan when that failed with hiding the chains in the ground [7], this exemplifies how he continues to confuse his opponent to try and catch them off-guard. Kakashi can easily feint a Raiton Bunshin underground, tricking Tsunade into attacking it (considering she attacked a Mokuton bunshin and fell for Madara’s trick), and paralyse her for a moment where Kakashi can jab her with a Raikiri/or Raikiri-Chain – just as he tricked Nagato with a Raiton Bunshin [8]. He can also even combine it with the use of a Smoke Bomb as he did with Deva to obscure her vision [9]. He even tricked Itachi at the last second with a clone feint [10], so it isn’t impossible to trick Tsunade also. I mean surprise attacks from below are not her forte [11], and Kakashi loves surprise attacks from below as I have listed.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 8, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Let's go by parts. I explained this part by part and very detailed but the fucking page refreshed and i lost everything. You're focusing on that scan only, taking it from reference WHERE the Raikage appears. let's make it simple.
> 
> Part 1: The Raikage was behind Tsunade the last time we see him.
> 
> ...



This really doesn't explain away what I said... I'm talking about that one panel. Tsunade covered the distance in almost the same time as A.



> I guess you forgot that Kakashi didn't know who was behind the mask when he figured out why Obito wasn't using his Rinnegan to attack. And you forgot how Konan spent all her time gathering paper, years if i'm not mistaken, so she didn't discovered that IN the fight. She had a long time to do that.
> 
> And of course, they both were of the same gang.



Wrong on a few counts. Yes, Kakashi is a keen analyst, and I give credit for that, but if I remember correctly he had an idea that it was Obito once he noticed how their dimensions are connected, and Obito did drop a few hints (by saying stuff like your Kamui won't work on my sharingan). And no, Konan spent at most a week or two, from Nagato's death to when Obito confronted her. She never planned on going against Akatsuki before his death. She had a week or so to plan how to defeat him. It's made even more impressive by the fact that I doubt Konan saw Obito fighting and his abilities in depth.



> Kakashi had basically no knowledge about Pain in that fight and yet he figured out Deva's 5 second interval and he sent Chouji to tell Tsunade what happened and the secrets of those two paths. He discovered this alone, Tsunade figured that out when intel came to her. I never said he was way too smart for Tsunade. But he's surely notable smarter.



When she heard of it, she came up with a counter. When Kakashi figured it out, he didn't. He's not noticably smarter in my opinion.



> Strenght =/= Taijutsu skill.



"He can create tigers with a punch" was your argument.



> No she didn't.



She did, I've explained it numerous times.



> Not really. Madara lured her into a trap to kill her and the same Madara was saying how shit the FIVE of them are compared to Hashirama, a man that was forced into a clone will say something like this? Of course not. Madara played with the kages all the time.



It doesn't matter if she lost, or if he was playing around, the feat still stands. It's canon that Tsunade cornered him into using the clone, Madara doesn't deny it.



> And of course. Madara especifically stated that it happened because it was FIVE vs ONE.



That really doesn't change anything, he was still cornered, especially by Tsunade's punch. He wouldn't use his wood clone as a trap unless he needed to, he wanted to test his powers and overwhelm them while playing with them as you said.



> Not at all. Brute strenght does not equal taijutsu skills. Gai has the superior feats in that department. Kisame and Obito are good examples of Gai's taijutsu prowess. Tsunade, on the other hand, has not shown taijutsu skills other than linear punches, kicks and some of agility. This is not enough to match what Gai as done.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 8, 2013)

Double post because I can't fit it all:



Jad said:


> You are saying her fighting style revolves around being impaled and getting hit in order for her to fight back against the Sasuno’s, even though she has never demonstrated this fighting style before. Ok, it seems understandable, at the same time there is room to claim that she couldn’t dodge those attacks. Although perhaps you could form an argument where Ei said “You are fighting slopping” in which he noted her bad fighting style. So in this fight between Kakashi and Tsunade, it seems Tsunade will be at the receiving end of his blows because Tsunade intends for it to be that way.



No, this is just trying to discredit Tsunade. I mean, Tsuande can TAKE the hits which is most likely why she did, hence A calling her sloppy. He even mentioned her regeneration, so it's pretty clear that she could have dodged, but A is berating her for not. 



> Might I add that Tsunade did not defeat a Sasuno clone, rather she knocked one over, you can’t add what you believe happened off-panel otherwise we are within your own created fan-fiction. Also Mei did liquefy a Sasuno’s hand/forearm, which on-panel showed she did more damage than any of the other Kages [1].



I'm sorry but punching a Susanoo clone out of battle, and knocking the other ones away from the battlefield is far more impressive and far more damage than slightly melting a Susanoo fist, only to be punched by the same fist (thanks for the link though, I didn't notice that at first).



> You keep suggesting Tsunade is going to counter-attack. I have seen her counter-attack but be on the receiving end of most of the attack only once. That was against Kabuto where you see here he tags her with his technique and she shoulder brushes him off [2].



Part I feats, where her speed has not been shown to be as impressive as in part II though. However, she also counterattacked to Kabuto's doton, a trick Kakashi might use, so it does show it's not completely out of character for her to do this.



> Also the example I used between Kyuubi Naruto and Base Sasuke cannot be refuted. It just goes to show that even when you are up against a faster opponent, with Sharingan pre-cog you can still dodge linear attacks, which Tsunade deals. Kakashi is faster than Tsunade, has better reflexes than her purely based around his practice with the Sharingan and achieving 3-tomoe, and the fact that he can slice her in half much like Kabuto could to Itachi [].



Madara would have done something about Tsunade's punch then. He was playing with them as you said, so he didn't want to have to resort to clones if he could.



> I say Tsunade is a linear fighting because of these points: (_I typed this up before and tweaked it for Kakashi_)
> 
> *Examples of Tsunade Fighting*
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but I'm not convinced by all these feats of part I Tsunade and Tsunade who was almost in a comatose state. The Invasion of Pain arc feat was to show Naruto's improvement, and Tsunade was almost out of chakra, do you expect her to blitz Asura when almost in a comatose state? We should go by her more recent, better feats. I still stand by the fact that she can get a hit in based on her speed feats, even if she might take a few harmless (for her) hits in return. There's no way Kakashi can dodge every single hit for hours.



> Kakashi has shown the ability to tag V2 Jinchiruuki’s multiple times not once but twice, all of whom are faster than Tsunade considering they attacked Bee and Shrouded Naruto quite easily here and here.



I see you're pulling out the recent, impressive part II feats for Kakashi though. 



> You’re taking that panel way too seriously because it ended with a failure on Tsunade’s part. Madara wanted to get caught hence he came out of the ground sword in hand stabbing her, than gloating about how he was the only one to see through Hashirama’s Mokuton clones [4]. If you haven’t noticed he wasn’t taking them seriously, the moment he wanted to collect the Kyuubi he did so and left them battered and bruised on deaths door. He ALWAYS had the ability to beat them like children. I don’t know if he was PUSHED into using a clone, but if he was, it was because of the collective group of the Kage’s effort having knocked him down in the ground/dirt.





Kakashi vs Pain - he lost
Kakashi vs V2 Jins - he didn't beat them, Obito took them back

Does that mean his feats in this fight don't count since they ended in failure? No. Stop the double standards. Another thing, you're claiming it was unfair Tsunade had backup against Madara, well guess what, Kakashi had backup in the fights I mention too. And Tsunade was facing the undoubtedly stronger opponent. 



> I have only seen one feat of her counter-attacking, that was against Kabuto, and if failed with her being at the receiving end of the scuffle. Can you show me Tsunade insane reflexes?



The feat of her batting away 5 fireballs? The fact she did this before any other Kage could react?



> She has shown to fight with two blades in her but not for an extensive period of time, meaning she needs to take time to heal. The moment she starts to regenerate is what I am discussing and if you  that is what I am saying. When she starts regenerating she is OUT of the fight and stops moving or doing anything of value - on-panel of course. Which in a fight can mean the difference, and Kakashi master tactician will take advantage of that and assault her even further. Also, Kakashi has split entire Giant Boulders without even passing through them entirely with his Raiton Kunai [5], meaning he can do the same with Tsunade. Also, Kabuto was able to  with just the palm of his hand. Kakashi has a much sharper version of Medical Palm and has the accuracy through Sharingan to do so.



I'm sorry, but Tsunade can still fight with those blades in. She only stopped to take them out AFTER she knocked the Susanoo out. Do you think she's going to stop in the middle of a fight to take a blade out and leave herself vulnerable?


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 8, 2013)

Triple post because I can't fit it all:



Jad said:


> Well, I don’t remember Kakashi having any substantial Sharingan genjutsu use other than knocking out ANBU agents. Clone feints on the other hand are not useless, his used them to catch people off guard, especially when he comes out of the ground. Here you can see Pain couldn’t avoid it rather relies on the timing of his Shinra Tensei [6]. Even than Kakashi had a back-up plan when that failed with hiding the chains in the ground [7], this exemplifies how he continues to confuse his opponent to try and catch them off-guard. Kakashi can easily feint a Raiton Bunshin underground, tricking Tsunade into attacking it (considering she attacked a Mokuton bunshin and fell for Madara’s trick), and paralyse her for a moment where Kakashi can jab her with a Raikiri/or Raikiri-Chain – just as he tricked Nagato with a Raiton Bunshin [8]. He can also even combine it with the use of a Smoke Bomb as he did with Deva to obscure her vision [9]. He even tricked Itachi at the last second with a clone feint [10], so it isn’t impossible to trick Tsunade also. I mean surprise attacks from below are not her forte [11], and Kakashi loves surprise attacks from below as I have listed.



The Pain example is a bad analogy. If Pain can use Shinra Tensei to block an attack he will, I don't think he's ever dodged while he could still use ST.

Madara's wood clone which only he could see through? Even if she falls for the feint, I really doubt paralysis would stop her for long. And remember, when Kakashi uses clone feints, he's quite a distance away from the clone, so the real Kakashi needs to cover the distance to attack, by which time I have doubts as to whether Tsunade would still be paralyzed, considering she doesn't get paralyzed by attacks that should paralyze her.

And why are you comparing Madara's HUGE Susanoo blade from below which would be hard to dodge anyway, which came AFTER Tsunade let down her guard, to Kakashi's doton? Tsunade had zero trouble with Kabuto doton back in part I. She's not going to let her guard down if she lands a hit that turns out to be a clone.


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## Jad (Apr 8, 2013)

Naruto fan, you didn't discredit anything I said, you just went up and said "Nope" to most of them. I'll try to get to your posts after, I am busy with my work, but I will answer the ones that stood out to me.

You keep saying she knocked out the other Sasuno clones, she knocked over one on panel, you don't have factual evidence to suggest she knocked out the others AWAY from the battlefield. Who knows what happened off-panel, for all we know Gaara could have helped, or Onoki weighted them down temporarily, I don't know, but you have to stop crediting your statement as factual.

As for the Tsunade being able to try and knock Kabuto as he came out of the ground. You have to remember that Tsunade clearly saw Kabuto disappear underground, so she knew to expect an attack from below [1].


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 8, 2013)

Jad said:


> Naruto fan, you didn't discredit anything I said, you just went up and said "Nope" to most of them. I'll try to get to your posts after, I am busy with my work, but I will answer the ones that stood out to me.



I did discredit your points and show you why they were faulty. But I mean, is there even any need to discredit your points, when you're comparing part II Kakashi's feats to part I Tsunade's while ignoring her improved part II feats? 

All your explanations of Tsunade's fighting style is useless when she landed a hit on Madara before he could dodge. Where was his Sharingan precognition then? Please don't use the "he wanted to be hit". He didn't want to have to use his full power, no one WANTS their clone to be hit if they can do something about it, so it's a legitimate blitz, on someone who has Sharingan precognition. It's stated canonically that she cornered him into using the clone, I don't know why you're trying to argue against manga panels.



> You keep saying she knocked out the other Sasuno clones, she knocked over one on panel, you don't have factual evidence to suggest she knocked out the others AWAY from the battlefield. Who knows what happened off-panel, for all we know Gaara could have helped, or Onoki weighted them down temporarily, I don't know, but you have to stop crediting your statement as factual.



When you're trying to claim Gaara and Onoki were helping Tsunade despite the fact she has Byakugou you're kind of hurting your own credibility. 

You don't have factual evidence of what you're saying, but what I'm saying is a THEORY based on what the panels show. If they were returning to the battlefield as you can see from them moving towards her (from quite a far distance away too), they were clearly knocked out of the battlefield first. Who was the only Kage shown to cause damage and be able to knock the clones out? Tsunade (Onoki only slowed their movements, A and Gaara were blocking their movements, Mei melted part of one of their hands but got beaten).



> As for the Tsunade being able to try and knock Kabuto as he came out of the ground. You have to remember that Tsunade clearly saw Kabuto disappear underground, so she knew to expect an attack from below [1].



That doesn't change anything. She still reacted in time. After all, she had no idea when he was going to pop out.


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## Innerhype (Apr 8, 2013)

Hmm, _Sakumo Hatake _ was said to have been above the Legendary Sannin, have his son _Kakashi _surpassed him?


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## Fifth Hokage (Apr 8, 2013)

Innerhype said:


> Hmm, _Sakumo Hatake _ was said to have been above the Legendary Sannin,  _Kakashi _surpassed him?


When was this argument mentioned?


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## goldendriger (Apr 8, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Double post because I can't fit it all:



That's what she said.

Proceed.


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## blk (Apr 8, 2013)

With knowledge, Kakashi can end this with a Raiton Bunshin feint followed by a Raikiri in Tsunade's head.

The distance makes the task even easier.

Kakashi should be able to win with mid difficulty at worst.


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## blk (Apr 8, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


>



What's the matter?


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## LostSelf (Apr 8, 2013)

Narutoninjafan, no hard feelings but we can't debate here if you're ignoring what i'm implying just because you think Tsunade did somethingwithout actual proof or proofs with holes in the middle (Tsunade reacting at the same speed with Ei, for example=). And even when Madara admits that he was cornered because it was five vs one you still imply that it was because oonly of Tsunade.

We're not going anywhere. In my eyes, i will be bringing proof or countering half made feats that we're not sure while you ignore it and vice versa.

Qe have very diferent opinions of Tsunade here. I still find weird the V2 reflexes Tsunade and master of taijutsu of yours with an IQ near or the same as Kakashi. This Tsunade doesn't exist in my eyes following manga logic and portrayals. So we're not going anywhere with this.

We will be disagreeing all the way

I will need full proof of Tsunade moving that fast to believe that she can keep up. Not her appearing when we don't know where she was, when she moved, where the Raikage was, when he moved. Until that, it's just not logical to assume she's that fast without a full proof when logic says otherwise.

I will need to see Tsunade in a hand to hand combat to compare her with Gai, because until now she just has brute strenght and nothing to be compared to what Gai has done even in base.

And i will need full proof of her matching Kakashi in inteligence when just tricking Itachi, a way much better genius than her makes her analytical feats like nothing (Compared with Kakashi's).

That said, we're not going anywhere. If you choose to believe she's that fast without a full proof and only because an scan then ok, i respect that but in my eyes (and even in most of the Tsunade fans eyes i bet) she's not, and etc.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 8, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Narutoninjafan, no hard feelings but we can't debate here if you're ignoring what i'm implying just because you think Tsunade did somethingwithout actual proof or proofs with holes in the middle (Tsunade reacting at the same speed with Ei, for example=). And even when Madara admits that he was cornered because it was five vs one you still imply that it was because oonly of Tsunade.



I never said it was ONLY Tsunade, but it was Tsunade that turned the tides around and forced Madara into using the wood clone. Are you denying that, when the Kages were getting curbstomped before Tsunade came into the battle?



> We're not going anywhere. In my eyes, i will be bringing proof or countering half made feats that we're not sure while you ignore it and vice versa.



Please stop with this passive aggressiveness, They aren't half made feats. A was close to Madara, Tsunade caught up to attack in unison, which is what allow them to shatter Susanoo. You may not like it, but it looks pretty clear that Kishi intended to show a combination attack, and even if he may not have intended to show Tsunade as a speedster, it still counts as a feat.



> Qe have very diferent opinions of Tsunade here. I still find weird the V2 reflexes Tsunade and master of taijutsu of yours with an IQ near or the same as Kakashi. This Tsunade doesn't exist in my eyes following manga logic and portrayals. So we're not going anywhere with this.
> 
> We will be disagreeing all the way
> 
> I will need full proof of Tsunade moving that fast to believe that she can keep up. Not her appearing when we don't know where she was, when she moved, where the Raikage was, when he moved. Until that, it's stupid (I'm not trying to disrespect here) to assume she's that fast without a full proof when logic says otherwise.



No disrespect, but in a debate where we haven't seen Tsunade vs Kakashi fight happen in the manga, it's logical to take a look at their feats and extrapolate a hypothesis of what would happen. That's what I've been doing. That includes taking feats they achieved and using our logic to make assumptions based off it, even though it wasn't explicitly stated "Tsunade caught up with V2 A."

Just because you don't like the way the feat portrays the character it doesn't make sense to try to poke holes in the feats. I could do the same with a lot of Kakashi's feats, but I don't, because looking at both their feats, I don't feel that I need to in order to prove how Tsunade wins.



> I will need to see Tsunade in a hand to hand combat to compare her with Gai, because until now she just has brute strenght and nothing to be compared to what Gai has done even in base.



You can believe what you want about Gai vs Tsunade, and I admit you have a point but Gai has had more panel time and more fights in hand to hand combat, because that's his style, whereas Tsunade's style is to end the battle as quickly as possible with one hit. Both are taijutsu, and I was basing my claim of Tsunade's superiority in taijutsu on the fact that Tsunade would probably beat Gai in a fight.



> And i will need full proof of her matching Kakashi in inteligence when just tricking Itachi, a way much better genius than her makes her analytical feats like nothing (Compared with Kakashi's).



I'm sorry, but can you please not use the A>B, B>C therefore A>C argument? Tsunade has never fought Itachi, therefore she never got a chance to trick him (I'm not saying she would, but if she never fought him she never even got a chance to trick him). If we use Pain as a basis, Tsunade showed up a counter very quickly to his jutsu which Kakashi didn't, so I feel there's no point trying to hype Kakashi's intelligence as running circles around Tsunade's.



> That said, we're not going anywhere. If you choose to believe she's that fast without a full proof and only because an scan then ok, i respect that but in my eyes (and even in most of the Tsunade fans eyes i bet) she's not, and etc.



The scan IS the proof though. It's canon proof, and the feat comes from logically assuming what happened. Kishi can't spell everything out to us, we have to make assumptions. And I really don't see where my assumptions are faulty, since it looks to me like Kishi intended to show them attacking in unison, and if so, Tsunade did catch up to him.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 8, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> The feat of her batting away 5 fireballs? The fact she did this before any other Kage could react?


 

V1 Raikage isn't that fast and the rest of them aren't faster than the Raikage.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 9, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> V1 Raikage isn't that fast and the rest of them aren't faster than the Raikage.



I don't know what you're talking about, but it sounds like you're whining that you don't want to credit the Tsunade feat I showed. You're pretty much implicitly agreeing that Tsunade wins, if you can only believe Kakashi wins by ignoring and outright refusing Tsunade's feats because you dislike the way they portray her.


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## Big Mom (Apr 9, 2013)

Unfortunatly, while Kakashi is the more versatile ninja, Tsunade is too much of an immortal to be taken down here. She is being severly underrated here. Tsunade has proven that between her _Byakugō no Jutsu_ technique and Katsuya, she literally cannot die. Katsuya is also able to put her back together from even the deadliest of techniques, while _Byakugō no Jutsu _can heal her body in second from even the gravest of wounds. All of the ranged techniques that Kakashi can use will not succeed in hurting her beyond repair, and she has a lot more chakra than him. A lot of people are saying that Tsunade isn't fast, but people need to stop underestimating her. Not only has she been known as the only ninja in the world who could spike a drink without a ninja knowing it, which is both a testiment to her speed and skills as a medic. She is quite capable of using the _Shunshin_ technique, using it to knock out Shizune and hit Kabuto. She proved fast enough to keep Kabuto and Orochimaru on the run, as well as proving to outspeed Orochimaru in their final confrontation. Everyone also seems to forget that Tsunade only requires one hit to defeat Kakashi, whether it be by killing him with her massive strength, or by disrupting his nervous system. Either method will prove effective, since Kakashi cannot heal from the former, nor can he stop the latter, since he lacks the medical skills to figure out how his body works. I noticed that Katsuya was unrestricted from this match, which I personally find a little unfair for Kakashi. Not only does Katsuya increase Tsunade's regeneration abilities, but it also is, in itself, immortal. He doesn't have any techniques to take down Katsuya, though I personally feel Katsuya isn't even needed here. As I said, Tsunade, through the use of Shunshins, her own raw speed, and her immortality, is quite capable of catching up to Kakashi and barreling through any techniques he may throw at her. Outside of _Raikiri_, he has nothing to take her down. Even _Raikiri_ I forsee failing at killing her, since she is capable of surviving despite being bisected. Overall, considering Tsunade only requires one hit to win, and Kakashi has virtually nothing to take her down, Tsunade should win this, even at this range.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 10, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> I don't know what you're talking about, but it sounds like you're whining that you don't want to credit the Tsunade feat I showed. You're pretty much implicitly agreeing that Tsunade wins, if you can only believe Kakashi wins by ignoring and outright refusing Tsunade's feats because you dislike the way they portray her.


A V1 Raikage blitz was stopped by Suigetsu and Juugo...lol...Tsunade has no speed feats and therefore a total shit, face it, she loses this match and any other match where she has to fight anyone who outranks her in speed by a gap greater than or equal to 1.


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## lordhigh (Apr 10, 2013)

honesly people believe kakashi wins this? at 1000m? kakashi will die chakra exaustion he cannot spam ninjutsu.. tsunade more likely can win this because of her healing abilities and chakra reserve


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## blk (Apr 10, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Outside of _Raikiri_, he has nothing to take her down. Even _Raikiri_ I forsee failing at killing her, since she is capable of surviving despite being bisected. Overall, considering Tsunade only requires one hit to win, and Kakashi has virtually nothing to take her down, Tsunade should win this, even at this range.



From 1000 meters, Kakashi can easily prepare a Raiton Bunshin feint followed by a Raikiri in her head, to which she won't survive.

You are overrating Tsunade.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 10, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> A V1 Raikage blitz was stopped by Suigetsu and Juugo...lol...Tsunade has no speed feats and therefore a total shit, face it, she loses this match and any other match where she has to fight anyone who outranks her in speed by a gap greater than or equal to 1.



And Tsunade can keep up with a V2 lightened A and can react faster than any other Kage. You're not making any sense.

Tsunade has a lot of speed feats, but you are the kind of person that probably doesn't read the manga carefully enough. That's fair enough, but if you don't read it carefully you really shouldn't be here frothing at the mouth at how Tsunade loses. This is a debate, and we use the feats she's shown and analyze them to make hypotheses, but you clearly can't read/understand them, so you really shouldn't be in this thread spewing your delusional, baseless shit. 

Please stop trolling. Your refusal of Tsunade's feats only shows you've lost. You and the other Kakashi fans can only believe Kakashi wins against Tsunade by discounting her feats. I think it's pretty clear the Tsunade fans have won.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 10, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> And Tsunade can keep up with a V2 lightened A and can react faster than any other Kage. You're not making any sense.
> 
> Tsunade has a lot of speed feats, but you are the kind of person that probably doesn't read the manga carefully enough. That's fair enough, but if you don't read it carefully you really shouldn't be here frothing at the mouth at how Tsunade loses. This is a debate, and we use the feats she's shown and analyze them to make hypotheses, but you clearly can't read/understand them, so you really shouldn't be in this thread spewing your delusional, baseless shit.
> 
> Please stop trolling. Your refusal of Tsunade's feats only shows you've lost. You and the other Kakashi fans can only believe Kakashi wins against Tsunade by discounting her feats. I think it's pretty clear the Tsunade fans have won.


First, she didn't and Ei hasn't used V2-level chakra in his attack aside from the backpack Oonoki version.


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## Big Mom (Apr 10, 2013)

blk said:


> From 1000 meters, Kakashi can easily prepare a Raiton Bunshin feint followed by a Raikiri in her head, to which she won't survive.
> 
> You are overrating Tsunade.



Raiton Bunshin is suppossed to paralyze Tsunade right? That is highly improbable. Not only does Tsunade know how her body works, and can quickly recover from being paralyzed. She would also have her Byakugō no Jutsu activated, which would quickly heal her from paralysis and allow her to freely move. After that, she isn't getting a Raikiri to the head, as long as she can prove and protect herself.

You are underestimating Tsunade and overrating Kakashi.


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## blk (Apr 11, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Raiton Bunshin is suppossed to paralyze Tsunade right? That is highly improbable. Not only does Tsunade know how her body works, and can quickly recover from being paralyzed. She would also have her Byakugō no Jutsu activated, which would quickly heal her from paralysis and allow her to freely move. After that, she isn't getting a Raikiri to the head, as long as she can prove and protect herself.
> 
> You are underestimating Tsunade and overrating Kakashi.



How can she resist to electricity? The electrocution alters the nerve transmission, causing uncontrollable muscle contractions.
The attacks that she resisted to through the manga are of a completely different nature, you cannot use them for say that she will not be paralyzed.

The only highly improbable thing here is what you assert: there are no evidences for say that Tsunade will not be paralyzed.


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## Misaki Yata (Apr 11, 2013)

Can't Kakashi's lighting chain decapitate Tsunades head off?


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> First, she didn't and Ei hasn't used V2-level chakra in his attack aside from the backpack Oonoki version.



1

Look again. It's not clear whether it's V2 or not, but his hair is standing up a bit like in V2, and it's pretty obvious he would use his strongest, most fastest technique against Madara.. If not, there's no need to have Onoki lightening him anyway. 

You really need to stop trolling. 



blk said:


> How can she resist to electricity? The electrocution alters the nerve transmission, causing uncontrollable muscle contractions.
> The attacks that she resisted to through the manga are of a completely different nature, you cannot use them for say that she will not be paralyzed.
> 
> The only highly improbable thing here is what you assert: there are no evidences for say that Tsunade will not be paralyzed.



No one is saying she's immune to electricity. Me and Hiruzen Sarutobi's point is that she can fight on even with blades through her spine. Now normally a blade through the spine would leave someone paralyzed because it hinders nerve transmission, yet Tsunade was able to move just fine. Tsunade has shown her ability to move without hindrance through normally paralyzing attacks, so, we are making a hypothesis that an electrical stunning attack would not do much, and certainly not do enough to allow Kakashi to win.


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## ArmorOfWisdom (Apr 11, 2013)

As shown many times throughout Naruto, speed is much more important than strength. So is intellect.

While Tsunade has perfect chakra control and is a medical genius, she's proven time and again her mind for battle is not so hot, on the other hand Kakashi is pretty much a genius when it comes to tactics.

Also, his combat ninjutsu is much more capable than Tsunade's. But then again she basically has two lives. It would be pretty close, but I still believe Kakashi would come out on top.

Besides, between you and me, I think Tsunade's power of youth reservoir is just about empty.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

ArmorOfWisdom said:


> As shown many times throughout Naruto, speed is much more important than strength. So is intellect.
> 
> While Tsunade has perfect chakra control and is a medical genius, she's proven time and again her mind for battle is not so hot, on the other hand Kakashi is pretty much a genius when it comes to tactics.
> 
> ...



Tsunade has shown plenty of speed feats. Such as blitzing Madara, keeping up with a V2 lightened A, blocking 5 katons before any other Kage could react.

She's proven to come up with a counter for ST immediately, unlike Kakashi. Her intelligence in battle is underrated.

Kakashi's ninjutsus are useless against Byakugou. He needs to get close to even stand a chance of beating her, and if he does, he risks getting hit, and one hit is all Tsunade needs.

Her Byakugou lasted all day against 5 Susanoo clones. And she only had at most a week to gather chakra too. If she had time to gather chakra for longer, her Byakugou would have lasted longer too.


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## ArmorOfWisdom (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Tsunade has shown plenty of speed feats. Such as blitzing Madara, keeping up with a V2 lightened A, blocking 5 katons before any other Kage could react.
> 
> She's proven to come up with a counter for ST immediately, unlike Kakashi. Her intelligence in battle is underrated.
> 
> ...



She never blitzed Madara, she needed A's help in order to instantly close the gap.

In the beggining of the shippuden arc, Kakashi was noted to be smarter than Shikamaru; someone who is well-known for his insightful, and calculating nature, though I doubt it is entirely true that he is smarter than shikamaru regarding tactics. It isn't underrated, you just can't seem to accept that Kakashi is a tactician master. Kakashi  is renowned for his tracking abilities and has displayed proficiency with making traps, survival, stealth, and assassination. 

Remember, he regularly has his opinion asked for by Tsunade because he is one of the smartest in the entire village 

She might have considerable strength but how far does she get with it ? she lack's the speed to make contact with Kakashi not to mention she her stubbornness, which was shown throughout the series when she hits without properly thinking. With Sharingan on, Kakashi could dodge what she throws at him, and nail her with a Raikiri to the head (Something even the byakugou would prove useless ). If the distance were longer, Tsunade could summon Katsuyu and try to win that way, but she doesn't have much going for her here. 

  Kakashi is a person that thinks before he acts and a thoughtful warrior and although he might be bloodlusted, I doubt he will deviate from that. I believe that this is what make him from other characters prior to the series that just attack without hesitating. If you Look at his fight against Pain, he spent most of the battle using a kagebunshin in order to figure out the way the ability of Pain's anatomy. He got Pain to reveal his entire hand without even having to place himself in danger. Not a surprise since he's been shown to be adequate in battles. I believe that this will occur in this hypothetical battle. Kakashi will rely upon his bunshin and use them to get Tsunade to show her capabilities and her flaws. Finally, with all his information gather, he creates a strategy that will spell the end for Tsunade and Kamui her from a certain, not too far off distance.

On the otherhand, Tsunade is a very direct fighter with very little long range capabilities. Given the fact that she is bloodlusted, I doubt that she will immediately summon Katsuyu, albeit will instead proceed to close the distance and smack him. Setting herself up quite nicely for a lightning bunshi which will stun her or a doton decapitation technique. In the end, I feel that Kakashi takes this fight simply because of his very cautiousness, deceptive nature and his ability to adapt and create openings.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 11, 2013)

I honestly don't think that the range benefits Kakashi here, even though he's typically better at it. If she's bloodlusted, Tsunade wants Kakashi dead ASAP; she won't run across 1000m before she decides to summon the giant, acid-spitting, Katsuyu. Zesshi Nensan will pressure Kakashi as it will require shunshin or going underground to evade. Underground is not where Kakashi wants to be against a giant that can bodyslam the ground hard enough to cause quakes simply by virtue of size, or against a woman who shatters the ground with ease with single strikes.

Kakashi has access to Suitons and one Raiton for range. Suiryudan, Daibakufu, Daikodan, and Raiju Hashiri each prove completely ineffective against Katsuyu, or Tsunade herself if they manage to reach her atop the slug.

Kakashi's true threatening offense comes from close-quarters, the area Tsunade specializes in.
Even then, Kakashi simply cannot dish out the kind of damage needed to overcome Tsunade's Byakugo technique, and he doesn't want to try to outlast her either as she can keep it up for hours even when restoring chakra to other Kages as well.

Kakashi is certainly faster and the Sharingan's precognition certainly does help him evade, but keeping up with Onoki and Raikage to attack against Madara as well as intercepting Madara's katons before any of her peers shows that Tsunade is not *so far* below him in speed that she can't ever hope to eventually tag him, or, given her insane resilience, strike him at the cost of being injured herself.

In this particular instance, Kakashi's speed advantage is even less significant than it normally is, because he'll have hundreds of slugs all over the place who in addition to taking up space and giving him less free room to move through, will be trying to slam into him or spit acid on him. Katsuyu Daibunretsu is practically made to assist Tsunade in dealing strikes to her foes.

So the way I see it. . .The Hokage eventually hits him and wins, high difficulty. Kakashi would win were Kamui unrestricted.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

ArmorOfWisdom said:


> She never blitzed Madara, she needed A's help in order to instantly close the gap.



(3)



> In the beggining of the shippuden arc, Kakashi was noted to be smarter than Shikamaru; someone who is well-known for his insightful, and calculating nature, though I doubt it is entirely true that he is smarter than shikamaru regarding tactics. It isn't underrated, you just can't seem to accept that Kakashi is a tactician master. Kakashi  is renowned for his tracking abilities and has displayed proficiency with making traps, survival, stealth, and assassination.
> 
> Remember, he regularly has his opinion asked for by Tsunade because he is one of the smartest in the entire village



He is smart, but it's not like the gap between them is so big. Considering her battle style requires less analysis than Kakashi's, it's likely that Tsunade's intelligence will prove more useful to her than Kakashi's intelligence will. She asks for his opinion because he's smart, not necessarily because he's smarter than her. 



> She might have considerable strength but how far does she get with it ? she lack's the speed to make contact with Kakashi not to mention she her stubbornness, which was shown throughout the series when she hits without properly thinking. With Sharingan on, Kakashi could dodge what she throws at him, and nail her with a Raikiri to the head (Something even the byakugou would prove useless ). If the distance were longer, Tsunade could summon Katsuyu and try to win that way, but she doesn't have much going for her here.



Why wouldn't Madara dodge her punch then? He knew she was strong, and he wanted to beat them without much effort so surely he would have dodged if he could.

No proof that a hit to the head would render Byakugou useless, but more importantly, it's not hard to dodge a hit to the head. That's why most ninjas aim for the body.



> Kakashi is a person that thinks before he acts and a thoughtful warrior and although he might be bloodlusted, I doubt he will deviate from that. I believe that this is what make him from other characters prior to the series that just attack without hesitating. If you Look at his fight against Pain, he spent most of the battle using a kagebunshin in order to figure out the way the ability of Pain's anatomy. He got Pain to reveal his entire hand without even having to place himself in danger. Not a surprise since he's been shown to be adequate in battles. I believe that this will occur in this hypothetical battle. Kakashi will rely upon his bunshin and use them to get Tsunade to show her capabilities and her flaws. Finally, with all his information gather, he creates a strategy that will spell the end for Tsunade and Kamui her from a certain, not too far off distance.
> 
> On the otherhand, Tsunade is a very direct fighter with very little long range capabilities. Given the fact that she is bloodlusted, I doubt that she will immediately summon Katsuyu, albeit will instead proceed to close the distance and smack him. Setting herself up quite nicely for a lightning bunshi which will stun her or a doton decapitation technique. In the end, I feel that Kakashi takes this fight simply because of his very cautiousness, deceptive nature and his ability to adapt and create openings.



Kakashi's long range jutsus are useless against Byakugou. I've already stated why I think a lightning bunshin wouldn't work long enough for Kakashi to do anything, and the doton won't work either since she has canonically countered it quite easily, in part I even.

You're right about Kakashi being analytical, but what is there to analyze? He can't kill her when she has Byakugou, it's that simple.


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## ArmorOfWisdom (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> (3)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Quit it with the ignorance, because with Byakugou, tsunade has never been seen regenerating from a head destruction attack. Yes, Tsunade's wounds begin to heal as soon as they are inflicted but there is a limit, she can only heal her wounds if they aren't an instant kill wound because she'd have nothing to regenerate since she'd be dead.

You'll have to provide me with proof because you were the one that first claimed that she can heal from a raikiri to the head with Byakugou. Furthermore,  it is your duty placed upon to prove the disputed fact that she can heal from a raikiri to the head, not mine. You ever heard of No limit fallacy and burden of proof ? That is what you are currently doing.

First thing first, Creation Rebirth automatically heals any and all damage once activated, and will continue until she runs out of chakra or if she deactivates the technique, however, she cannot regenerate from a raikiri to the head because it'll automatically kill her. Unless you want to state that SHE is immortal and can even regenerate from naruto's BB  though I wouldn't find that rational seeing how it'll automatically render your argument invalid and fallacious, which as we all know, is against house policies. 

Still isn't the point, Kakashi can analyze a situation and turn it to his advantage thus overwhelming his opponent with various traps and finishing them with his techniques. On the other hand, Tsunade is a bit rash and usually charges in without thinking while she faces an opponent, her tactics cannot be compared to the likes of Kakashi, whose instincts also allowed him to calmly effectively view and react to any danger (Part 1 when he noticed the demon bro's hiding inside the puddle). Kakashi's intellect has proven itself against many S-rank criminals including  various members of Akatsuki, in which he was shown perceptive and analytical skills.

Because A's speed was the thing that actually propelled her at near impossible speed, thereby; letting her make contact with Madara. Also to be noted, while madara was regeneration, tsunade was able to land a blow to Madara (Because he was regeneration) directly which destroyed his right-side. 

Are you actually being ignorant ? No one can survive a raikiri hit to the head because you'll instantly die, it is near impossible to survive a hit to the head regardless. Raikiri would instantly destroy her brain, as a consequence, she'd die.

First off Kakashi has the Sharingan, non-Sharingan users dodged Tsunade's attack twice in a row=point proven of her deficiency.

Kakashi has better reflexes than Tsunade(irrefutable, insofar as he has the Sharingan giving him more time to react to threats).

And Kamui would eat her for breakfast. Why are you denying that? In fact, he can deflect Tsunade off even with Kamui(which he wouldn't have to), or absorb her at a  close range. And for god's sake, don't rebut by saying Tsunade can hit Kakashi, because she's downright slow. There's no convincing me out of it. She failed miserably twice in a row, furthermore she failed to react to Orochimaru's flying tongue. There's no excuse for that.

This is a tricky one. Because although Kakashi is on average faster than Tsunade, one hit ends him. And undoubtedly her taijutsu is in fact better than his. That being said, you don't land taijutsu strikes without the speed to do so, and thus Tsunade will initially find it very difficult to land hits on speedy Kakashi. Kakashi is also bloodlusted, thus should be throwing Raikiris and Lightning Hounds as though there's no tomorrow. Tsunade is typically an evasion master, and when Bloodlusted tends to move around faster than usual. Thus , she should be able to dodge some of these attacks, though obviously not all of them, as in the end - Kakashis average speed is greater. If Kakashi does land a Raikiri on Tsunade, she always has Creation Rebirth. The technique can easily recover her from damage and is very quick to activate, as we see during the Pein Arc. When put under great pressure and pain, Tsunade pushes herself more, and thus she tends to move faster. As Orochimaru impales her with his sword, she manages to blitz him despite her condition. While Kakashis movements are limited due to his arm being stuck in Tsunades chest, she easily do the same thing. Throwing a quick strike which he cannot dodge. Even if that fails, Tsunade will have been pushed to the limit by that stage, to the extent that she can move around at the speeds she did against Manda, being able to intercept him mid-bite with a sword at least 100 times her own weight. Landing a rashinsho or a simple strike would be all too possible even for Kakashi.

Furthermore, while Tsunade is jumping around at great speeds throwing strikes which cause great damage to the ground, not only will Kakashi be doing his best to dodge her initial strike, but also jump out of the way of the debris and earth which will potentially pelt him. It would seem very unlikely to me that Kakashi would try to use a Kamui while jumping around and trying to dodge. He has never done such a thing to my knowledge, even when bloodlusted. However, if and when he does use Kamui, Tsunade will not be able to dodge. She needs to have taken Kakashi out before she really drives him into using it, otherwise she will lose arms, legs or even her head, and be unable to fight on. In this scenario, it could really go either way.

I do not think Kakashi would stand a better chance a distance, in fact being at a closer range gives him a much better advantage. At a range Tsunade only has to summon Katsuyu and pelt him with huge masses of corrosive acid, as fast as Kakashi is, he will not be dodging several blasts over and over, particularly if he has already summoned up Lightning Hounds, Bunshins or used Raikiris, to which we know cut his chakra greatly. His only way to kill Tsunade would be with Kamui, and with a giant living tank below her, which can make smaller human sized meat shields - I do not see it killing her either. A greater distance would only put Kakashi at a disadvantage.

lightning clones paralyse tsunade then kakashi uses LB, if that doesnt work because of MR kamui takes it.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> He is smart, but it's not like the gap between them is so big. Considering her battle style requires less analysis than Kakashi's, it's likely that Tsunade's intelligence will prove more useful to her than Kakashi's intelligence will. She asks for his opinion because he's smart, not necessarily because he's smarter than her.



I'm done with this thread but really? Not so big. Come on now. We both know that gap is bigger than Valley of the end. And her intelligence prove more useful than Kakashi's. I don't even know what to say to that it's so outrageous.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 11, 2013)

Tsunade and Kakashi's 'intelligence' stats are completely different to each other. Where Tsunade's intelligence comes from combat experience, and having a high level of knowledge in the medical field, it's a lot more specialized than Kakashi's, who is a lot more well rounded than her in that he has a lot of general knowledge (which also includes things in the medical field), combat experience and a high level of analytical ability. 

I'm not sure what the argument is here, but I think it's clear who would be better in a combat situation, tactically speaking. This is even obvious from their fights. Kakashi spends all of his fights analyzing his opponent's techniques, and/or how to counter them, which allows him to hit people in ballparks far above his. Tsunade doesn't really do that, and kind of just charges in to try and punch her opponent to death. Kakashi is all about adapting to situations and using his tools to survive against stronger opponents. Tsunade just repeats the same 'tactic' over and over again.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

ArmorOfWisdom said:


> Still isn't the point, Kakashi can analyze a situation and turn it to his advantage thus overwhelming his opponent with various traps and finishing them with his techniques. On the other hand, Tsunade is a bit rash and usually charges in without thinking while she faces an opponent, her tactics cannot be compared to the likes of Kakashi, whose instincts also allowed him to calmly effectively view and react to any danger (Part 1 when he noticed the demon bro's hiding inside the puddle). Kakashi's intellect has proven itself against many S-rank criminals including  various members of Akatsuki, in which he was shown perceptive and analytical skills.



Yes, Kakashi has shown good perception and analysis, but like I said, Tsunade's fighting style is simply yet effective. There's not much to analyze, so Tsunade's intelligence will be more useful in analyzing Kakashi's battle style which is full of traps.



> Because A's speed was the thing that actually propelled her at near impossible speed, thereby; letting her make contact with Madara. Also to be noted, while madara was regeneration, tsunade was able to land a blow to Madara (Because he was regeneration) directly which destroyed his right-side.



That's not what happened.



> Are you actually being ignorant ? No one can survive a raikiri hit to the head because you'll instantly die, it is near impossible to survive a hit to the head regardless. Raikiri would instantly destroy her brain, as a consequence, she'd die.



We don't know whether Byakugou can heal from it or not, but more importantly, it's not hard to dodge a headshot, and a headshot leaves you open for counterattack once you dodge.



> This is a tricky one. Because although Kakashi is on average faster than Tsunade, one hit ends him. And undoubtedly her taijutsu is in fact better than his. That being said, you don't land taijutsu strikes without the speed to do so, and thus Tsunade will initially find it very difficult to land hits on speedy Kakashi. Kakashi is also bloodlusted, thus should be throwing Raikiris and Lightning Hounds as though there's no tomorrow. Tsunade is typically an evasion master, and when Bloodlusted tends to move around faster than usual. Thus , she should be able to dodge some of these attacks, though obviously not all of them, as in the end - Kakashis average speed is greater. If Kakashi does land a Raikiri on Tsunade, she always has Creation Rebirth. The technique can easily recover her from damage and is very quick to activate, as we see during the Pein Arc. When put under great pressure and pain, Tsunade pushes herself more, and thus she tends to move faster. As Orochimaru impales her with his sword, she manages to blitz him despite her condition. While Kakashis movements are limited due to his arm being stuck in Tsunades chest, she easily do the same thing. Throwing a quick strike which he cannot dodge. Even if that fails, Tsunade will have been pushed to the limit by that stage, to the extent that she can move around at the speeds she did against Manda, being able to intercept him mid-bite with a sword at least 100 times her own weight. Landing a rashinsho or a simple strike would be all too possible even for Kakashi.



I'm glad we agree here. I'm not saying Tsunade is necessarily much faster than Kakashi, but just because someone is slower it doesn't mean they'll never land a hit. And Tsunade is no slouch in speed herself anyway.



> Furthermore, while Tsunade is jumping around at great speeds throwing strikes which cause great damage to the ground, not only will Kakashi be doing his best to dodge her initial strike, but also jump out of the way of the debris and earth which will potentially pelt him. It would seem very unlikely to me that Kakashi would try to use a Kamui while jumping around and trying to dodge. He has never done such a thing to my knowledge, even when bloodlusted. However, if and when he does use Kamui, Tsunade will not be able to dodge. She needs to have taken Kakashi out before she really drives him into using it, otherwise she will lose arms, legs or even her head, and be unable to fight on. In this scenario, it could really go either way.



Kakashi needs to stay still to use Kamui as far as I know, which isn't the best idea against Tsunade. Kamui is restricted anyway.



> I do not think Kakashi would stand a better chance a distance, in fact being at a closer range gives him a much better advantage. At a range Tsunade only has to summon Katsuyu and pelt him with huge masses of corrosive acid, as fast as Kakashi is, he will not be dodging several blasts over and over, particularly if he has already summoned up Lightning Hounds, Bunshins or used Raikiris, to which we know cut his chakra greatly. His only way to kill Tsunade would be with Kamui, and with a giant living tank below her, which can make smaller human sized meat sheilds - I do not see it killing her either. A greater distance would only put Kakashi at a disadvantage.



As I said above Kamui is restricted.



IchLiebe said:


> I'm done with this thread but really? Not so big. Come on now. We both know that gap is bigger than Valley of the end. And her intelligence prove more useful than Kakashi's. I don't even know what to say to that it's so outrageous.



If you're done with this thread could you stop spewing baseless crap and GTFO? She came up with a counter to ST after hearing about it immediately, something Kakashi couldn't, but I see everyone chooses to ignore that feat.

But my main point is her intelligence in this matchup will be more USEFUL to her than Kakashi's analytical skills, because Tsunade's fighting style is simple but effective. You take a hit, you die. Meanwhile, Kakashi's sneaky tactics will require analysis to deal with, which is why in this case, Tsunade's intelligence helps her more than Kakashi's intelligence will help him. 

Is it that hard for you to understand something so simple? 



Atlantic Storm said:


> Tsunade and Kakashi's 'intelligence' stats are completely different to each other. Where Tsunade's intelligence comes from combat experience, and having a high level of knowledge in the medical field, it's a lot more specialized than Kakashi's, who is a lot more well rounded than her in that he has a lot of general knowledge (which also includes things in the medical field), combat experience and a high level of analytical ability.
> 
> I'm not sure what the argument is here, but I think it's clear who would be better in a combat situation, tactically speaking. This is even obvious from their fights. Kakashi spends all of his fights analyzing his opponent's techniques, and/or how to counter them, which allows him to hit people in ballparks far above his. Tsunade doesn't really do that, and kind of just charges in to try and punch her opponent to death. Kakashi is all about adapting to situations and using his tools to survive against stronger opponents. Tsunade just repeats the same 'tactic' over and over again.



Then how did Tsunade come up with a counter for ST, unlike Kakashi. It's a bit of a reach to claim Tsunade's intelligence is only based in the medical field.

Tsunade uses her "same tactic over and over" because, while simple, it works. Kakashi uses his tactics because he can't afford to just charge in with an attack because he doesn't have Byakugou.


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## ArmorOfWisdom (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Yes, Kakashi has shown good perception and analysis, but like I said, Tsunade's fighting style is simply yet effective. There's not much to analyze, so Tsunade's intelligence will be more useful in analyzing Kakashi's battle style which is full of traps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



False, like many said, Kakashi is more effective in dire situations while Tsunade's knowledge is incredible and uses it in the medical field, it's much more different  than Kakashi's and less effective when it comes to tactics. 

Stop using redundant Logic, No one (Besides edo's) can survive a hit to the head because you'll instantly die.

I meant the "Light speed" jar.

Kakashi is easily one of the strongest living characters. He has used so much chakra during this war. before one or two kamuis would put him out. But he's used it plenty of times along with lightning blade variants and clones. And base sharingan as well.

Tsunade sadly is outmatched by Kakashi in every way besides strength. And healing. Unless she uses byakugo she won't be taking him in speed. Once byakugo comes out, IF it does, Kakashi just kamuis. 

He is able to quickly and single-handedly deduce the workings of her tactis techniques and plot successful diversions with his raiton bunshin thus stunning her and proceed to kamui her. Though it's irrelevant since it's restricted.


I'll come back in 5 hours and continue as long as it reaches 100 pages.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 11, 2013)

> Then how did Tsunade come up with a counter for ST, unlike Kakashi.



Tsunade came up with it using knowledge that Kakashi himself got from his fight. By the time Kakashi had figured out Deva's ability, Asura Realm was already there, so there was no point in wasting chakra solely on countering Deva Realm. That, and he was focused on killing, not surviving.



> It's a bit of a reach to claim Tsunade's intelligence is only based in the medical field.



Not really. I said she has combat experience, but her tactical ingenuity is nowhere near the same level as Kakashi's.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> If you're done with this thread could you stop spewing baseless crap and GTFO? She came up with a counter to ST after hearing about it immediately, something Kakashi couldn't, but I see everyone chooses to ignore that feat.
> 
> But my main point is her intelligence in this matchup will be more USEFUL to her than Kakashi's analytical skills, because Tsunade's fighting style is simple but effective. You take a hit, you die. Meanwhile, Kakashi's sneaky tactics will require analysis to deal with, which is why in this case, Tsunade's intelligence helps her more than Kakashi's intelligence will help him.



Kakashi is the one who figured everything out about ST and had a plan. Then backup arrived and he made a whole new plan. And these plan were to beat the 5 second interval. Tsunade was use chakra in her feet and Pain pretty much laughed at her.

Kakashi makes knowledge way more effective than Tsunade does. Tsunade doesn't use knowledge, she just rushes in which is why a RKB would beat her. Kakashi comes up plans that are extremely effective and waits for the perfect time.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

ArmorOfWisdom said:


> False, like many said, Kakashi is more effective in dire situations while Tsunade's knowledge is incredible and uses it in the medical field, it's much more different  than Kakashi's and less effective when it comes to tactics.



I think the ST counter, and saving all the villagers from CST is pretty impressive to me, and shows her ability to act in dire situations...



> Stop using redundant Logic, No one (Besides edo's) can survive a hit to the head because you'll instantly die.



You have a point (although you don't express it very clearly) but you just never know. Tsunade has been shown to move through normally paralyzing attacks fine.



> I meant the "Light speed" jar.



I meant this.



> Kakashi is easily one of the strongest living characters. He has used so much chakra during this war. before one or two kamuis would put him out. But he's used it plenty of times along with lightning blade variants and clones. And base sharingan as well.



With rest and possible healing in between. Tsunade fought all day against 5 Susanoo clones, far FAR more powerful than the opponents Kakashi faced. However, either way it's pretty obvious Tsunade's stamina beats him.



> Tsunade sadly is outmatched by Kakashi in every way besides strength. And healing. Unless she uses byakugo she won't be taking him in speed. Once byakugo comes out, IF it does, Kakashi just kamuis.
> 
> He is able to quickly and single-handedly deduce the workings of her tactis techniques and plot successful diversions with his raiton bunshin thus stunning her and proceed to kamui her. Though it's irrelevant since it's restricted.
> 
> I'll come back in 5 hours and continue as long as it reaches 100 pages.



Kamui is restricted. But again, just for the sake of it, Kakashi has never used Kamui while moving. He needs to stay still and concentrate to use it, which isn't going to cut it against Tsunade anyway. And I've said many times Tsunade has moved and fought through paralyzing attacks before fine.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Tsunade came up with it using knowledge that Kakashi himself got from his fight. By the time Kakashi had figured out Deva's ability, Asura Realm was already there, so there was no point in wasting chakra solely on countering Deva Realm. That, and he was focused on killing, not surviving.



That really doesn't change the fact she came up with it immediately, while Kakashi just didn't come up with it. He thought Asura was dead anyway so using the Pain had backup argument is a bit redundant.



> Not really. I said she has combat experience, but her tactical ingenuity is nowhere near the same level as Kakashi's.



Fair enough, but like I said, her combat style is simple, so I am led to believe that her ability to analyze Kakashi's tactics will be more useful than Kakashi's ability to analyze Tsunade's fighting style since all he'll really come up with is that he can't afford to get hit.



IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi is the one who figured everything out about ST and had a plan. Then backup arrived and he made a whole new plan. And these plan were to beat the 5 second interval. Tsunade was use chakra in her feet and Pain pretty much laughed at her.



So Pain laughing at her attempts because he had CST up his sleeve makes Tsunade's feat useless. This is why your arguments have no credibility. 



> Kakashi makes knowledge way more effective than Tsunade does. Tsunade doesn't use knowledge, she just rushes in which is why a RKB would beat her. Kakashi comes up plans that are extremely effective and waits for the perfect time.





-snip-


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## IchLiebe (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> So Pain laughing at her attempts because he had CST up his sleeve makes Tsunade's feat useless. This is why your arguments have no credibility.



It does when it's something simple and wouldn't work anyways. Kakashi's plan was to make him use his power than hit him while he couldn't do ANYTHING. That's why Kakashi's feat is over hers.



> You base a lot of your discredit for Tsunade and her feats off the fact she lost to Madara and Pain used CST to counter her counter for normal ST yet wank to Kakashi's feats he showed in a battle he lost? I hope you realize how stupid that sounds. Maybe you should stop posting as you said.



-snip-. I didn't discredit shit. That's all you've said to anyone who doesn't agree with you and you're wrong.  Tsunade doesn't come up with plans, FACT. Kakashi figures out his opponents ability and then counters it with a plan everytime, FACT. Tsunade making knowledge more useful than Kakashi is not happening. Not even close.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> It does when it's something simple and wouldn't work anyways. Kakashi's plan was to make him use his power than hit him while he couldn't do ANYTHING. That's why Kakashi's feat is over hers.



-snip-I refuse to believe it. It was said canonically that it would have worked. And don't pull the Kakashi's planned to hit him while he couldn't do anything, because Tsunade never got into a fight, I think it's pretty fucking obvious that she would have tried that too, and don't say Pain couldn't do anything, he dodged and avoided attacks fine even in the interval.



> Quit acting stupid. I didn't discredit shit. That's all you've said to anyone who doesn't agree with you and you're wrong.  Tsunade doesn't come up with plans, FACT. Kakashi figures out his opponents ability and then counters it with a plan everytime, FACT. Tsunade making knowledge more useful than Kakashi is not happening. Not even close.



Do you know what the word discredit means? Look it up, because that's what you're doing. You're trying to say why Tsunade's feat doesn't count by -snip-

Blocking villagers from CST with Katsuyu, healing villagers with Katsuyu, using chakra on her feet to counter ST aren't plans? Get the fuck out. 

Let's look back at your previous argument:



> It does when it's something simple and wouldn't work anyways



Now let's look at your current argument:



> Kakashi figures out his opponents ability and then counters it with a plan everytime, FACT



-snip-

A lot of the feats you use are examples when Kakashi's plan doesn't work, FACT. Does that mean they don't count? No, because that would be being stupid, but your argument hinges off that to discredit Tsunade. Surely you need to be consistent and do the same with Kakashi right? -snip-


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## Star★Platinum (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> I meant this.



Wait, how does a panel of Tsunade FALLING for a clone, which Madara clearly set up to create an opening to do THIS  literally 3 or 4 pages later show her in a favorable light?.
You can't argue it shows her 'speed' when Madara WANTED it to be hit to create a false sense of security.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> I'm sorry but I can't with this shit.
> 
> You cannot possibly be THIS stupid, I refuse to believe it. It was said canonically that it would have worked. And don't pull the Kakashi's planned to hit him while he couldn't do anything, because Tsunade never got into a fight, I think it's pretty fucking obvious that she would have tried that too, and don't say Pain couldn't do anything, he dodged and avoided attacks fine even in the interval.
> 
> ...



You're so annoying to argue with.

Tsunade's plan was a plan but it wouldn't have matter because all it would do is force a stronger ST. Then what? She isn't going to be able to do anything because of how far she's going to be. 

Kakashi was to make him use a small ST and then hit him in the 5 second interval. Plot demanded that Deva live so Asura did an interception. 

Show me one thing where Tsunade comes up with a good solid plan, and not the feet thing when KAKASHI IS THE ONE WHO GAVE HER THAT KNOWLEDGE.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

X Itachi X said:


> Wait, how does a panel of Tsunade FALLING for a clone, which Madara clearly set up to create an opening to do THIS  literally 3 or 4 pages later show her in a favorable light?.
> You can't argue it shows her 'speed' when Madara WANTED it to be hit to create a false sense of security.



It's canon that he did it to be safe though, he even admits it.

If he could have defeated them without resorting to it, he would have, but he was cornered into using it (and admits it), so I would say the feat stands.



IchLiebe said:


> You're so annoying to argue with.
> 
> Tsunade's plan was a plan but it wouldn't have matter because all it would do is force a stronger ST. Then what? She isn't going to be able to do anything because of how far she's going to be.



That doesn't change the fact she was able to come up with a quick and effective counter though. And as the strongest character in the manga you never know how well the counter would have worked. Maybe Pain might have underestimated her strength with a ST that she could resist. You could argue that aiming for the 5 second interval leaves you open the second the interval is over. Then what? You need to be consistent in your logic instead of solely trying (and failing) to poke holes in my logic to make Tsunade look bad.



> Kakashi was to make him use a small ST and then hit him in the 5 second interval. Plot demanded that Deva live so Asura did an interception.



Plot? 

Plot demanded Madara lived. You need to do better. 



> Show me one thing where Tsunade comes up with a good solid plan, and not the feet thing when KAKASHI IS THE ONE WHO GAVE HER THAT KNOWLEDGE.



Katsuyu clones latching onto everyone to protect the village from CST? That's seems a pretty good plan to me, and done with very little time to execute it too. It really doesn't matter if Kakashi gave her the knowledge. Once Kakashi figured it out he should have used it too if he thought of it. Tsunade came up with the solution straight after hearing about his techniques, which is impressive no matter what you say. Another illogical argument from you I see.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> That doesn't change the fact she was able to come up with a quick and effective counter though. And as the strongest character in the manga you never know how well the counter would have worked. Maybe Pain might have underestimated her strength with a ST that she could resist. You could argue that aiming for the 5 second interval leaves you open the second the interval is over. Then what? You need to be consistent in your logic instead of solely trying (and failing) to poke holes in my logic to make Tsunade look bad.
> 
> 
> Plot?
> ...



-snip-

Anyways, putting chakra in you're feet is something that shows intelligence when all of the ANBU next to her did to without anyone talking it over. It's like Itachi's plan to beat CT. It's something simple that isn't impressive AT ALL. Kakashi deduced Deva's power down to the interval with next to nothing to go on. That's impressive. Kakashi's plan to beat the interval is impressive. Tsunade hasn't shown anything impressive.



> Katsuyu clones latching onto everyone to protect the village from CST? That's seems a pretty good plan to me, and done with very little time to execute it too. It really doesn't matter if Kakashi gave her the knowledge. Once Kakashi figured it out he should have used it too if he thought of it. Tsunade came up with the solution straight after hearing about his techniques, which is impressive no matter what you say. Another illogical argument from you I see.



Tsunade's summon heals people. People needed healing. More people about to get hurt. Again it's a plan and good but not impressive. It's what Tsunade is supposed to do. If she didn't come up with something to protect then village then she would be a shit kage. Again it's good but nothing on the level of what Kakashi has done. Not even near it. And there was a time interval from the time she heard it till he got there so it wasn't straight after hearing about it unless you got scans to prove it.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> -snip-
> 
> Anyways, putting chakra in you're feet is something that shows intelligence when all of the ANBU next to her did to without anyone talking it over. It's like Itachi's plan to beat CT. It's something simple that isn't impressive AT ALL. Kakashi deduced Deva's power down to the interval with next to nothing to go on. That's impressive. Kakashi's plan to beat the interval is impressive. Tsunade hasn't shown anything impressive.



How do you know they didn't talk it over? Either way, it doesn't change the fact that Tsunade still came up with a counter.

Kakashi's analysis was impressive, but if you keep trying to dismiss Tsunade's feats, you're weakening you're credibility. Your bias is ridiculous at this point. Konan figured out Obito's technique in great depth, does that mean she's smarter than Kakashi because that's a far, FAR more impressive feat considering it's unlikely she ever saw him fight or pushed to the limit of using his technique for 5 minutes? Just stop.



> Tsunade's summon heals people. People needed healing. More people about to get hurt. Again it's a plan and good but not impressive. It's what Tsunade is supposed to do. If she didn't come up with something to protect then village then she would be a shit kage. Again it's good but nothing on the level of what Kakashi has done. Not even near it. And there was a time interval from the time she heard it till he got there so it wasn't straight after hearing about it unless you got scans to prove it.



She used Katsuyu as a meat shield against CST, that's pretty impressive and quick thinking because she realized it would take less chakra than trying healing the wounds (it's unlikely the villagers would have even survived CST so she saved their lives), was done quickly.

So now, because Tsunade was supposed to do something it makes anything she does useless? Please read the shit you're posting before you post it and realize how dumb your arguments sound.

There may have been some time in between, in fact, I'm pretty sure there was some time (probably not a lot though) since Tsunade was back healing, but her healing would take a lot of concentration I'm guessing so it's still impressive she came up with the counter. Stop denying that you're discrediting her feats, it's pretty clear that's the only way you can convince yourself Kakashi wins this and that's cute for you, but to deny that you're doing it when it's so obvious...


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## IchLiebe (Apr 11, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> How do you know they didn't talk it over? Either way, it doesn't change the fact that Tsunade still came up with a counter.



GOOD POINT, NOW SHOW ME WHERE TSUNADE CAME UP WITH THE PLAN AND NOT THE ANBU.



> Kakashi's analysis was impressive, but if you keep trying to dismiss Tsunade's feats, you're weakening you're credibility. Your bias is ridiculous at this point. Konan figured out Obito's technique in great depth, does that mean she's smarter than Kakashi because that's a far, FAR more impressive feat considering it's unlikely she ever saw him fight or pushed to the limit of using his technique for 5 minutes? Just stop.



I'm not dismissing it. I said it was good but not Kakashi level. Konan had what 15+ years to analyze his abilities. And it's UNLIKELY, but we don't know. We can't tell what happened in that time period.



> She used Katsuyu as a meat shield against CST, that's pretty impressive and quick thinking because she realized it would take less chakra than trying healing the wounds (it's unlikely the villagers would have even survived CST so she saved their lives), was done quickly.
> 
> So now, because Tsunade was supposed to do something it makes anything she does useless? Please read the shit you're posting before you post it and realize how dumb your arguments sounds.



Again it's good but not impressive. It's not even a battle feat. Show me one time in a FIGHT where she made a plan and implemented it. 



> There may have been some time in between, in fact, I'm pretty sure there was some time (probably not a lot though) since Tsunade was back healing, but her healing would take a lot of concentration I'm guessing so it's still impressive she came up with the counter. Stop denying that you're discrediting her feats, it's pretty clear that's the only way you can convince yourself Kakashi wins this and that's cute for you, but to deny that you're doing it when it's so obvious...



I'm saying they are good feat but Kakashi's are amazing feats that Tsunade can't even come close to.

Kakashi is faster, sharingan, better taijutsu, smarter, RKB, genjutsu, summons, dotons, suitons, and raitons and your still saying that Tsunade wins because of one jutsu that hasn't shown to be able to take a raikiri to the head. 

You're saying people are denying these feats and dismissing those feats when NO ONE has. Just fucking quit. You say I'm taking away my creditability but when all you say when someones argues against you is,"you discredit this and then take this feat," then something's going on. And you can say that to one or two people because it may be true, but when you say to 10 people over the course of 150 something posts and people keep trying to tell you what happened and you don't accept it, don't it look like maybe it's not them, MAYBE IT"S YOU.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 11, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> GOOD POINT, NOW SHOW ME WHERE TSUNADE CAME UP WITH THE PLAN AND NOT THE ANBU.



So now you're hoping some fodder ANBU came up with the plan instead of Tsunade? Get out. 



> I'm not dismissing it. I said it was good but not Kakashi level. Konan had what 15+ years to analyze his abilities. And it's UNLIKELY, but we don't know. We can't tell what happened in that time period.



True but why would Obito ever need to battle in front of them. He was their boss and told Pain what to do. Also, the fact Konan found out about it along with the fact it takes longer for him to absorb himself shows insane analytical and observation skills. Does that make Kakashi stupid? NO. Just because she's shown better feats doesn't make Kakashi's feats meaningless, similar to how Kakashi's better feats (coming from more panel time I might add) doesn't make Tsunade's feats useless.



> Again it's good but not impressive. It's not even a battle feat. Show me one time in a FIGHT where she made a plan and implemented it.



Her fighting style is fairly simple I'll admit. But it doesn't have to be complicated thanks to Byakugou, and that's the point. Just because she doesn't need to use lots of analysis in battle it doesn't mean she can't. Her feats show she could but she doesn't need to because of Byakugou.



> I'm saying they are good feat but Kakashi's are amazing feats that Tsunade can't even come close to.



To say Tsunade can't even come close is ridiculous Kakashi wank. 



> Kakashi is faster, sharingan, better taijutsu, smarter, RKB, genjutsu, summons, dotons, suitons, and raitons and your still saying that Tsunade wins because of one jutsu that hasn't shown to be able to take a raikiri to the head.



But none of those will work against Byakugou. It doesn't matter how diverse his techniques are, they won't work. And as I said, a headshot is SO EASY TO DODGE and if he misses he's dead. And you're still saying there's no chance at all he'll miss? 



> You're saying people are denying these feats and dismissing those feats when NO ONE has. Just fucking quit. You say I'm taking away my creditability but when all you say when someones argues against you is,"you discredit this and then take this feat," then something's going on. And you can say that to one or two people because it may be true, but when you say to 10 people over the course of 150 something posts and people keep trying to tell you what happened and you don't accept it, don't it look like maybe it's not them, MAYBE IT"S YOU.



When has anyone accepted Tsunade's feats rather than coming up with excuses for why it's not impressive. Please, show me.

It's pretty clear the Kakashi fans know he can't win if they accept her feats which is why you're ignoring/discrediting her feats and wanking Kakashi's to the heavens. Why is it so hard for you to accept it? 

So now you're logic is "more people agree with me so I'm right"? 

Why don't you think of the reason why. Kakashi has had more panel time and more fans. It's pretty obvious more people will think Kakashi wins, but I've put forward my argument based on her canon feats, and the Kakashi proponents' arguments are based on techniques that have been shown once, haven't shown themselves to stun for very long even against a metallic opponent who should conduct the electricity better anyway, tactics that have been dodged far too easily, wanking Kakashi's range of techniques which won't do anything to Byakugou. And on top of that, they discredit and make excuses for each and every feat of Tsunade that shows her in a positive light, and for reasons such as "she lost against Madara". I mean, the insecurity and the bad reasoning, and the hypocritical, inconsistent arguments from you and some others is quite funny at this point.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 11, 2013)

This has gone on long enough.

Locking.


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