# Video Game Storytelling - How Much "Game" Do You Need?



## Zaelapolopollo (May 30, 2014)

This is something that I've been dealing with for many years. I'm a Metal Gear Solid fan (the first three games at least) and I had a very prolonged debate with someone a couple years ago about the pros and cons of MGS. We weren't even talking about the plot itself though, it was more about Kojima's presentation. 

The accusations were that Kojima's lengthy cutscenes are the absolute opposite of what video games need to be doing in order to establish themselves as a new medium for telling stories.  There are also several posters on Something Awful's forums who are absolutely convinced there are no good video game stories and that we simply have such low standards in the genre that the "good" game stories are only equivalent to...I dunno, some random airport novel. Sure it's okay and all but it's not exactly War and Peace.

Now I remember when researching Onimusha Warlords that Capcom was VERY excited about it and so was everyone else at the time. The PS2's graphical capabilities were such a cut abovve what came before that the opening cutscene and the entire game itself was intended for a "movie feel." In short, Onimusha the video game was trying to replicate the movie experience. This in turn was applauded by reviewers. 

And yet people on forums keep saying this is wrong, MGS is wrong, Heavy Rain is wrong. Video games need to make use of what they are more and try to be movies less. 

I just want to get the thoughts of you good posters on here. Do you agree with this sentiment? Do you think video games need to stop trying to be something they are not? Or do you think there's a wide enough market for more "movie-like games" as well as games that make use of gameplay more in telling a story?


----------



## Patchouli (May 30, 2014)

I think it really depends on the person. 

I don't mind cutscene-heavy games. Whether the story is being presented to me in a form I can interact with, or a form where I'm just a viewer - it doesn't matter to me, because I think both can provide entertainment if done right (or hilariously wrong). Also something that can depend on genre, engine limitations, and whether the main character is blank or not.

*Genre:* In a genre like horror, having the story presented in a form you can interact with is paramount. If all the scary stuff happens in cutscenes, you're taking a backseat and just watching things transpire. It takes out all the tension you'd otherwise have if the scene were in-game. 

*Engine:* Things that just cannot be done realtime in-game due to engine limitations - just make them into cutscenes.

*Character:* If the main character of the game is a blank character that's intended to allow the player to immerse themselves into, then cutscenes are bad. Think any silent protagonist ever. The character doesn't speak, and choices you as a player make vary more widely. The reason for that is because that character is intended to you. Who they are as a character just doesn't matter. So in a game where the character is essentially your avatar, making cutscenes that portray that character making decisions - it isn't good, because it takes away the control from the player. But in a game where the character has their own personality, that character making decisions on their own in a cutscene is tolerable. 

As I said though, it depends on the person. Some people cannot tolerate the idea of games like Heavy Rain, others are fine with it. (As an aside, I'm fine with it because anything David Cage makes is god-awful, and I love it.)

Personally, I'm alright with games trying to be movies. I don't prefer those sorts of games to interactive ones. But they do have their place in the industry, and gamers are free to choose which games they want to buy.

As for the market, I think it's terrible how developers try so hard to target specific groups. They get into game development because they love games. They should just make games they would enjoy playing. The game will find its audience.


----------



## Millefeuille (May 31, 2014)

I absolutelty loathe long cutscenes.
I want to play a game not watch a movie.
It's perfectly possible to tell a story and develop characters with small well placed cutscenes and dialogues.


----------



## St. YatōKiri_Kilgharrah (May 31, 2014)

First of all, you have to have gameplay.

Take Gone Home for instance. You barely do much in that game, but the driving force of interaction is "exploration"

I hate  long uninterrupted cut scenes. they shouldnt be longer than 15 minutes maximum. I tend  to like all manners of story telling. Whether its SMT 4, Etrian Odyssey The Last Story or Xenoblade


Oh devil survivor was legit too


----------



## Deathbringerpt (May 31, 2014)

St NightRazr said:


> Take Gone Home for instance. You barely do much in that game, but the driving force of interaction is "exploration"



A walking simulator isn't exactly the best example of engaging gameplay you can come up with if you're trying to discuss where to draw the line between gameplay and cutscene. Frankly, I'd rather see a cutscene of an interesting game rather than stand the boring ass drudge that is Dear Esther or Gone home.


----------



## Buskuv (May 31, 2014)

I think it's because a lot of game developers still can't help telling rather than showing.

There are so few games that tell the story through gameplay effectively that its almost non-existent.  The only recent example of which I can think is the ending of Halo: Reach where there's no way to win, and you basically just shoot things until you die.

Nothing is mentioned about how you never make it out, or how you died.  You just play until you die and the credits roll.  It's pretty effective.

We don't get that.

We get elaborate cutscenes and exposition dumps.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (May 31, 2014)

Clearly some people like that though. Well more like a lot of people.

Can't we all agree that there's a market for everything? There's a place for games like Heavy Rain or more interactive titles?


----------



## Agmaster (May 31, 2014)

How do you convey emotion to people who have different inherent natures?  Some may stop and watch a building fall, while others may just rush forward to the next 'checkpoint'.  

Story is not that hard to force on player in smaller games, but a huge disconnect appears in triple a titles because the gameplay is nowhere near the scale of cutscenes.  This pulls me out of fps and jrpgs alike.


----------



## Linkofone (Jun 1, 2014)

4 hours of story telling, 20 minutes of actual gameplay.


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2014)

If I recall correctly, wasn't Beyond: Two Souls an elaborate attempt to make a game just one drawn-out story?


----------



## Maycara (Jun 1, 2014)

Everything has a story. Art is story telling. You look at a certain painting and there is a story too it. Stories is what we enjoy about art. That is my sole purpose for playing video games. Story. There is two genres where I can let a bad story not bother me. Fighting games and MMORPGS. Or anything multiplayer related really.

Story is the most important part of any medium imo. This is why I don't play Mario anymore. There is nothing driving me to the next goal. With 2 or more player games this is okay because you are forming a story with them, and interacting with them. Which makes you want to keep going.

Games, especially single player games without stories are pointless to me and I think we are past the time of "saving the princess".

Does that mean they have to be lengthy cut scenes to tell that story? No not really. Look at Last of Us, it did a lot of its story telling just via gameplay. However, I think stories are the most important part of any medium.


----------



## Magnum Miracles (Jun 3, 2014)

Yeah, I tend to not like cutscene heavy game like MGS. I prefer to actually play my games.


----------



## Sanji (Jun 3, 2014)

Storytelling should ALWAYS be done through gameplay. A perfect example of this is Half Life.

Quick cutscenes are fine, but MSS and others like it shouldn't be allowed to get away with some that are too long and too frequent.

As cool as Asura is, it's FAR to cutscene based and tries make up for a lack of control the player has with fucking quicktime events. No dice.


----------



## Buskuv (Jun 3, 2014)

Minzara said:


> Everything has a story. Art is story telling. You look at a certain painting and there is a story too it. Stories is what we enjoy about art. That is my sole purpose for playing video games. Story. There is two genres where I can let a bad story not bother me. Fighting games and MMORPGS. Or anything multiplayer related really.
> 
> Story is the most important part of any medium imo. This is why I don't play Mario anymore. There is nothing driving me to the next goal. With 2 or more player games this is okay because you are forming a story with them, and interacting with them. Which makes you want to keep going.
> 
> ...



That's unfortunate.

Almost every game has a story; undoubtedly.  

However, Mario games are still fun.  I would hate to have all my games need an elaborate, well told story in order to be funded; I'd hate that.  Most video games stories are pretty bad, with a very notable exceptions; but they are few.  

I don't need a story to have fun.   

I'll be able to enjoy Mario and Counterstrike alongside the Last of Us and Nier for a long, long time.


----------



## Krory (Jun 3, 2014)

You know what would help? If everyone stopped talking about how amazing _every_ story is. Yes, yes, we know you love DMC (or DmC conversely), Tomb Raider, BioShock, Spec Ops, Halo, or what the fuck ever but their stories aren't nearly as perfect as a lot of over-zealous fans tend to make them out to be (myself included).

It gets especially bad when it's all nostalgia bullshit and people talk about how great hodge-podge stories like Castlevania and Mega Man are. Like, wut? Those games weren't great (or good or memorable or however you want to class them) because of their "Oops, Wily is at it again!" or "Damn it, Dracula, why won't you stay dead?!" storylines.

Shit like this is why there's so much of a focus on story when there doesn't necessarily _need_ to be.

Of course I'm a sucker for story aspects for games but it doesn't need to be complex, or riveting, or pretend to be some kind of moral dilemma for the player.

This is why Lego games are the king of all games.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 3, 2014)

Dr. Biscuit Kardashian said:


> That's unfortunate.
> 
> Almost every game has a story; undoubtedly.
> 
> ...



Pretty much. If you're planning to make a particularly elaborate story, that story better be pretty solid and most importantly, make sure the gameplay is good enough so going from point A to point B doesn't become a chore.

Like Xenogears for example without the 80+ hour plot, is pretty fun gameplay wise, messing with combos and tuning out my mechs. If it didn't have it then it'd be particularly draining just to get the game finished. No matter how good the story is.


----------



## Deathbringerpt (Jun 3, 2014)

What I've learned in this thread:

Mario games are bad because of story.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jun 3, 2014)

I see what they are talking about. I gave up on Pokemon for that same reason. There's just so little incentive or drive to do anything...Catch Pokemon, grind Pokemon to higher levels, fight Lass Sarah and Lad Billy, defeat a Gym Leader, rinse and repeat until the game is over.

It gets really tedious after a while but a more interesting storyline might have broken up the monotony.


----------



## Krory (Jun 3, 2014)

I always find Pokemon games to be fun until you're about to go to the Elite Four or whatever equivalent.


----------



## Buskuv (Jun 3, 2014)

I dunno.

I just can't imagine ignoring so many games because they don't present their story like a movie.


----------



## Krory (Jun 3, 2014)

Dr. Biscuit Kardashian said:


> I dunno.
> 
> I just can't imagine ignoring so many games because they don't present their story like a movie.



People ignore PC games if they favor controls (like Super Meat Boy, etc.). I've seen people ignore console games if they don't have a PC port - even though they will be buying/playing the console version anyway. There are people that swear off entire publishers and developers because of one mediocre game. By that line, you are literally only playing indie games.

Gamers do really stupid shit, especially nowadays.


----------



## St. YatōKiri_Kilgharrah (Jun 4, 2014)

Deathbringerpt said:


> What I've learned in this thread:
> 
> Mario games are bad because of story.



Sonic game are also bad because of story.

And the sonic fanbase has gone raving mad for it XD


Although that guy should play Galaxy.

And the 2D Mario's because its all kidnapping roleplay so peach can deal with her sexual tensions, otherwise she goes beserk and we get Super Princess Peach 2. 

Mario got's to play the "hero"

Secret agreement between him and bowser . 

This is why they can still play golf together lolol.


----------



## St. YatōKiri_Kilgharrah (Jun 4, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> I see what they are talking about. I gave up on Pokemon for that same reason. There's just so little incentive or drive to do anything...Catch Pokemon, grind Pokemon to higher levels, fight Lass Sarah and Lad Billy, defeat a Gym Leader, rinse and repeat until the game is over.
> 
> It gets really tedious after a while but a more interesting storyline might have broken up the monotony.





krory said:


> I always find Pokemon games to be fun until you're about to go to the Elite Four or whatever equivalent.



Yeah with pokemon you kinda always want more to do after you finish it because the game's have so much content and you always want to do even more and more, so having a post game narrative REALLY helps keep it fun. I think this is why I liked the battle frontier the most myself .

Honestly I've always REALLY liked the Lore behind pokemon. Its really well told. ( haha even the worse offender from a story point with Ruby and Sapphire, which at first didnt make sense with the whole water vs land thing at first does actually end up making sense scientifically) But that's the thing about pokemon, they really pay attention to detail and seem to merge mythology perfectly with science to create this really interesting world full of.

Did you know that humans became pokemon? The evolutionary cycles in that game are mad crazy XD. 


I always wanted a game where after you become the Elite 4 member you get to do more Elite 4 type shit. I think this is why people have the fondest memories for Gold And Silver. Heart Gold and Souls Silver are still the best DS pokemon game's interface wise. I think Alpha Sapphire and Omega Red will over take them however.

But you know gamefreak is doing a lot of cool things gameplay wise with the series still. I bet by the 7th or 8th gen we'll have real time version of pokemon battles with their own set of strategies.

Now we got  single's,double's,triple's,rotational,sky and inverse(type reverse) battles.

Speaking of Sky Battles/Inverse Battles. The Ruby and Sapphire Remakes BETTER have it so you do Sky Battle's in Fortree City's Gym with Winona and Inverse Battles in Tate and Liza's gym.


As you can see Im a bit of a huge pokemon fan  XD


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jun 4, 2014)

So there's something I want to say real quick and I figured I'd just post it here.

So as a fan of video game stories, I've had to deal with a lot of shit. Over the years, over the many forums I post on, the same tired insult gets repeated over ad over.

"You liked [Insert Game]'s story? What, have you never read any good books?"

No, I guess I haven't. I love MGS2's plot therefore I never read To Kill a Mockingbird or The Scarlet Letter or any of that. I never read anything except the instructions on my 30 cent Ramen packs and hell, I couldn't even read those because I'm probably just illiterate. That is the ONLY way I can think Metal Gear Solid 2 had a good story.

It gets even funnier when you take into account different genres too. Like, I enjoyed the plot of System Shock 2. But what if I did read a good book? What if i read The Odyssey? Does that mean I can't enjoy my science fiction horror story?

The obvious intent of these detractors is to portray anyone who think video games have great writing as uncultured simpletons who spend all their time living in their own filth and watching Jerry Springer. God forbid I think Xenosaga is interesting even though I've read some "good books." Only unwashed plebs enjoy video game writing.


----------



## Krory (Jun 4, 2014)

>MFW nothing you listed is a good book


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jun 4, 2014)

The entire world and literary community would disagree with you.


----------



## Krory (Jun 4, 2014)

I highly doubt that every single person in the world would say The Scarlet Letter is a good book. In fact, I'm willing to bet more people will say Twilight and The Hunger Games are "good books" compared to The Scarlet Letter. What does that tell you about the world?

The Odyssey isn't even a book - it's a pair of poems.


----------



## Alicia (Jun 4, 2014)

Those are literate elitists. Elitists are annoying just like fanboys.

I think Bioshock Infinite had an excellent presentation. It was weaker gameplay-wise imo though


----------



## Mael (Jun 4, 2014)

krory said:


> I highly doubt that every single person in the world would say The Scarlet Letter is a good book. In fact, I'm willing to bet more people will say Twilight and The Hunger Games are "good books" compared to The Scarlet Letter. What does that tell you about the world?
> 
> The Odyssey isn't even a book - it's a pair of poems.



To Kill a Mockingbird was a great book.


----------



## Risyth (Jun 4, 2014)

krory said:


> I highly doubt that every single person in the world would say The Scarlet Letter is a good book. In fact, I'm willing to bet more people will say Twilight and The Hunger Games are "good books" compared to The Scarlet Letter. What does that tell you about the world?
> 
> The Odyssey isn't even a book - it's a pair of poems.



TSL was an average book. It may be my contemporary biases, though.

Not every game needs a laid out story. Giving it one is just interpreting it. Stories work well for some games, but they don't for others, and some don't need them to be good. 

Whether or not a game's story affects my experience with the game depends on how integral the story is to the game. Which usually means the genre plays an important role. After all, who's ever played and enjoyed Burnout or Madden because of its storytelling?


----------



## St. YatōKiri_Kilgharrah (Jun 5, 2014)

I just wanted to make the distinction that having a good narrative and story does NOT make your book good.

Books need to be more than just their stories to be good books. Whether you personally enjoyed them or not. Writing is not a one dimensional pursuit


----------



## Platinum (Jun 5, 2014)

How much narrative I expect depends on both the series in question and the genre it is in. I seriously doubt anyone is completely rigid about how much story has to be in every game they play, but i'm sure most people would agree that they are expecting a better story out of a 40 hour rpg than a platformer.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Jun 6, 2014)

I love MGS as much as the next gamer, but Kojima could seriously benefit from having better pacing in his games.

I have no problem with cut-scenes; I have a problem with poor pacing.  It sounds bad but I don't flip on a video game just so I can sit for over an hour listening to plot exposition.  If you're going to have segments that long, why even make the story you want to tell in the form of a video game?

I think that a lot of games have gotten better about this in some respects, having dialogue and such in... 'real-time' for lack of a better term.  I know horror games do it a lot in particular to give you more of a feel of vulnerability.  More games should implement stuff like this more often, if for no other reason than to give the player more control and to improve pacing.

MGS has a good story but the pacing makes me want to cringe sometimes.  Games need some amount of balance.


----------

