# Did Orochimaru only kill the Fourth Kazekage since he wasn't expecting it?



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 6, 2011)

If the Kazekage could fight and beat Shukaku whenever it went out of control, he's very strong. So did Orochimaru just kill him since he was off guard and didn't expect a betrayal in their alliance?


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## motto (Jul 6, 2011)

I wouldn't be surprised if Oro killed the Kazekage using some sort of a trickery.


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## Ninja Genius (Jul 6, 2011)

WTF you people are crazy.  Gaara's dead had a technique that could beat the one tail that has nothing to do with everyone else.  Orochimaru doesn't use sand so it doesn't have any effect on him. 

Just reread the chapter where Orochimaru fought Kyuubi Naruto.  His body is the most durable body we seen so far in the manga, he can spam a billion snakes, move insanely fast, use great taijutsu summons giant shields instantly etc etc etc etc etc.

I swear everyone in these forums are always looking to make the next character the strongest character.


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## Turrin (Jul 6, 2011)

Yondaime Kazekage knew about Orochimaru having Edo Tensei, which even Hiruzen didn't know about back then until Orochimaru actually used it against him. So I wouldn't be surprised if Orochimaru ambushed Yondaime Kazekage with the perfect Tensei's prepped to defeat him.

However at the same time I haven't seen anything from Yondaime Kazekage yet that would convince me it would have been impossible for Orochimaru to defeat him in a straight forward battle. Orochimaru is a Kage "level" ninja as well after all.


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## Corax (Jul 6, 2011)

No because he was stronger. Golden sand is good but only vs sand.In over aspects it isnt much more dangerous than Gaara s sand.


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## legendoflink3 (Jul 6, 2011)

Ninja Genius said:


> WTF you people are crazy.  Gaara's dead had a technique that could beat the one tail that has nothing to do with everyone else.  Orochimaru doesn't use sand so it doesn't have any effect on him.
> 
> Just reread the chapter where Orochimaru fought Kyuubi Naruto.  His body is the most durable body we seen so far in the manga, he can spam a billion snakes, move insanely fast, use great taijutsu summons giant shields instantly etc etc etc etc etc.
> 
> I swear everyone in these forums are always looking to make the next character the strongest character.



Umm what do you mean that since oro doesn't have sand it doesn't affect him.. The gold can still hurt anybody whether they use sand or not... 

Truth is people are forgetting oro, jiraya and tsunade are not just sannins.. they are all kage level.. Plus oro had edo tensei too so i wouldn't be suprised if he didn't use the 1st and 2nd hokage to beat him..


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## seastone (Jul 6, 2011)

Or Orochimaru is just that strong? 

Honestly it seems just becasue he is weaker than Itachi, some people think is jounin level or something.


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## HawkMan (Jul 6, 2011)

Orochimaru may have had the element of surprise, but I doubt it was the sole reason for his victory. Some forget how strong Orochimaru was/is.


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## Reddan (Jul 6, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Or Orochimaru is just that strong?
> 
> Honestly it seems just becasue he is weaker than Itachi, some people think is jounin level or something.



Yes people fail to see how incredibly strong he was, because Itachi was stronger.

None of the resurrected kages are going to be stronger than Orochimaru. There should be no problem with him killing any of them.


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## Klue (Jul 6, 2011)

Corax said:


> No because he was stronger. Golden sand is good but only vs sand.In over aspects it isnt much more dangerous than Gaara s sand.



From what we've seen so far.



HawkMan said:


> Orochimaru may have had the element of surprise, but I doubt it was the sole reason for his victory. Some forget how strong Orochimaru was/is.



We'll probably never know, but seeing a dead Yondaime Kazekage with his robes and hat still place reeks of a sudden sneak attack.


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## navy (Jul 6, 2011)

Kishi never decided how he died, just accept it.


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## hellohi (Jul 6, 2011)

Ninja Genius said:


> WTF you people are crazy.  Gaara's dead had a technique that could beat the one tail that has nothing to do with everyone else.  Orochimaru doesn't use sand so it doesn't have any effect on him.



This. 

The problem with most people on this forum is that they think that because Ninja A can beat Ninja B, and Ninja B beats Ninja C, Ninja A can beat Ninja C too.

Plus Orochimaru had Kimimmaro(however you spell that) with him.


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## SageRafa (Jul 6, 2011)

arednad said:


> Yes people fail to see how incredibly strong he was, because Itachi was stronger.
> 
> None of the resurrected kages are going to be stronger than Orochimaru. There should be no problem with him killing any of them.



Yeah because Oro can tank Jinton and reform from dust right ? And he's a Sensor to see through Muu's invisibility ?


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## Reddan (Jul 6, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Yeah because Oro can tank Jinton and reform from dust right ? And he's a Sensor to see through Muu's invisibility ?



Orochimaru has plenty of snakes, who could sense Muu not to mention Manda or his Hydra form. He has his gates to block Jinton and this is before we take into account his offence. He can use Edo Tensei, release poisons and is an expert at Genjutsu. He also wields Kusanagi a sword sharp enough to hurt the adamantine Enma. Anyway there is no point comparing jutsu. The manga makes it fairly obvious, who is stronger. Orochimaru is the legendary Sannin, who took down two kages, had the skills to surpass Hiruzen and created his own village stronger than the Sand. 

It's like the Hanzo situation all over again. People ignore everything Kishimoto screams at them and then get angry about a character being "trolled." The New Surpass the Old.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Jul 6, 2011)

Oro most likely tricked or surprised him, but Kishi will never really explain how the fight actually went down. Unless we get a flashback before the edo Kazekage dies.


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## shyakugaun (Jul 6, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Or Orochimaru is just that strong?
> 
> Honestly it seems just becasue he is weaker than Itachi, some people think is jounin level or something.



this oro gets no respect around here


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

No op, Orochimaru>Fourth kazekage.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm not saying Orochimaru couldn't have defeated the Fourth Kazekage without an ambush. I'm saying that it'd be a big advantage.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jul 6, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If the Kazekage could fight and beat Shukaku whenever it went out of control, he's very strong. So did Orochimaru just kill him since he was off guard and didn't expect a betrayal in their alliance?


The 4th Kazekage has the perfect counter to the Shukaku's sand attacks, thats why he could be it so much. Not saying he isn't strong but his abilities are very well suited to facing a being that is a good deal stronger than him overall, just like Kisame against jinchuurikis. I'd think Orochimaru could beat him in a straight fight but I don't doubt he caught the Kazekage off-guard and it was an easy battle due to it.


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## Kanali (Jul 6, 2011)

Well obviously the Fourth Kazekage wouldn't expect his ally to suddenly kill him. Its possible he used Edo Tensei on him too, or Orochimaru was just the superior ninja. People don't give him nearly as much credit as he's due, and we've barely seen shit from Gaaa's Dad.


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## Adagio (Jul 6, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I'm not saying Orochimaru couldn't have defeated the Fourth Kazekage without an ambush. I'm saying that it'd be a big advantage.



Thats not what you made it look like in your first post:


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If the Kazekage could fight and beat Shukaku whenever it went out of control, he's very strong. So did Orochimaru just kill him since he was off guard and didn't expect a betrayal in their alliance?



I don't doubt for a second that Orochimaru is strong enough to beat Yondaime Kazekage in a fight. Just because Gaara's father showed the ability to withstand and possibly subdue the Ichiibi in a fight means nothing, when you consider how Orochimaru fared against Kn4 (You have to consider that Gaara's ability gives him a big advantage in the Sand Village similarly to Gaara)

Either way:



Klue said:


> We'll probably never know, but seeing a dead Yondaime Kazekage with his robes and hat still place reeks of a sudden sneak attack.



This.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Jul 6, 2011)

Klue said:


> We'll probably never know, but seeing a dead Yondaime Kazekage with his robes and hat still place reeks of a sudden sneak attack.



Yeah, I thought I remembered seeing the Yondaime Kazekage in his robe and hat. Perhaps we will get a flashback with more clarification? Much like we did with Hanzo's flashback of getting killed by Pain.


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## Motochika (Jul 6, 2011)

Anybody else forget the fact that Orchimaru wasn't alone in that fight. He had Kimmaro and Kabuto hell even Orchimaru stated that they couldn't have done it without Kimmaro.


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## vjpowell (Jul 6, 2011)

Orochimaru was stronger or Gaara's father was ambushed and wasn't ready to fight back.


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## Hasan (Jul 6, 2011)

Or simply that Orochimaru was stronger than the Kazekage? Remember, Orochimaru was the first choice for Yondaime Hokage. Itachi is what you could say, was Oro's worst opponent. Itachi bested Oro, that was his feat. But this doesn't mean Oro is weak.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 6, 2011)

Its possible, but I dont think so, the snake man was just as strong. OP you should also take in consideration the Oro that would have fought the Kazekage wasnt the normal Oro, he was the most powerful version of Oro in the entire manga because he had edo tensei 2 kages, one of then being the one that defeated EMS Madara.

In short we are talking about part 1, where village busting was not even in the imagination of the forum members. That Oro had the guy that defeated EMS and also his brother plus himself and if everything fail his Hydra technique, in short that Oro at that momment had a power level comparable with current Naruto and Sasuke or stronger. Said Oro would have not only defeated but raped ANYONE that isnt current Kabuto, Madara or Nagato and hold his own against current Naruto and Sasuke, Hiruzen was actually being raped (the kaged were toying with him). Even Itachi who was normally superior to Oro would have been raped against that version if bloodlusted.

So it isnt out of reason Oro had actually destroyed in a fight the Kazekage fairly easy because this wasnt the average version, no this was a specially powered up prepared version just like Konan with her 6 billion tags prep. This Oro could have very well raped Kazekage with ease.


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## BroKage (Jul 6, 2011)

Fourth Kazekage's group was found face-down, so maybe they were just betrayed. Who knows.


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## alchemy1234 (Jul 6, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Orochimaru may have had the element of surprise, but I doubt it was the sole reason for his victory. Some forget how strong Orochimaru was/is.



Basically this. Just because Itachi (arguably the second or third strongest character in the manga - not including rikudou) beat him twice with ease does not mean orochimaru was weak. He did reasonably well against 4 tailed kyuubi, and he should be able to handle someone capable of controlling the 1 tail beast. It should also be noted that gaaras father could control the bijuu because he coincidentally had or had developed the perfect jutsu to counter its ability. That would not make him as strong as the bijuu itself, just a bad match up for the bijuu.

Orochimaru was/is an insanely powerful character, and I'm sure he's capable of giving any of the kages - save raikage - a run for their money.



Motochika said:


> Anybody else forget the fact that Orchimaru wasn't alone in that fight. He had Kimmaro and Kabuto hell even Orchimaru stated that they couldn't have done it without Kimmaro.



I believe that part was anime filler. I don't think it was in the manga.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 6, 2011)

alchemy1234 said:


> Basically this. Just because Itachi (arguably the second strongest character in the manga) beat him twice with ease does not mean orochimaru was weak. He did reasonably well against 4 tailed kyuubi, and he should be able to handle someone who is able to control the 1 tail beast. It should also be noted that gaaras father could control the bijuu because he coincidentally had the perfect jutsu to counter its ability. That would not make him as strong as the bijuu itself, just a bad match up for the bijuu.
> 
> Orochimaru is an insanely powerful character, and I'm sure he's capable of giving the kages a run for their money.
> 
> ...



Not to mention that the version Kazekage fought wasnt the normal Oro but a speciall powered up version that most likely would have raped Itachi if bloodlusted.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Oro is a beast and Yondaime Kazekage hasn't showed anything that would imply Oro can't take him in a fair fight.But Gaara's dad is by no means weak.


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## alchemy1234 (Jul 6, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Not to mention that the version Kazekage fought wasnt the normal Oro but a speciall powered up version that most likely would have raped Itachi if bloodlusted.



I don't really agree with that. Oro even when he had his hands and jutsu lost relatively easily against itachi. Its also established that edo tensais are not as powerful as the original shinobi, and their level of strength depends on the type of talisman being used. Even if they were as strong as the original shinobi, kabuto said that genjutsu could be used to break the jutsu. Itachi is a terrible match up for oro.



畜生道 said:


> Oro is a beast and Yondaime Kazekage hasn't showed anything that would imply Oro can't take him in a fair fight.But Gaara's dad is by no means weak.



exactly. people have really been underestimating oro now that he's gone.


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## Judecious (Jul 6, 2011)

He had the perfect counter to the one tail.  Plus from what we saw the one tail wasn't impressive.


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## principito (Jul 6, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If the Kazekage could fight and beat Shukaku whenever it went out of control, he's very strong. So did Orochimaru just kill him since he was off guard and didn't expect a betrayal in their alliance?



Kimimaro and Kabuto were there too if my memory is fine...

So 3 top nin against 1 is always bad


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## alchemy1234 (Jul 6, 2011)

principito said:


> Kimimaro and Kabuto were there too if my memory is fine...
> 
> So 3 top nin against 1 is always bad



apparently that part was anime filler. I heard someone say so in this forum.


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## Big Mom (Jul 6, 2011)

It NEVER SAID THAT THE 4TH KAZEKAGE SINGLE HANDEDLY DEFEATED THE SHUKAKU EVERY TIME. HE SAID THAT HE USED THIS TO COUNTER ITS SAND TECHNIQUES.


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## Chaos Hokage (Jul 6, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Orochimaru may have had the element of surprise, but I doubt it was the sole reason for his victory. Some forget how strong Orochimaru was/is.



Oro's element of surprise was his insane stamina, his regenerative abilities, Edo Tensei, and Kabuto.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 6, 2011)

hellohi said:


> Plus Orochimaru had Kimimmaro(however you spell that) with him.



I can't remember, but wasn't that only in the anime? I recall the anime expanded more on Kimimaro than the manga did.


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## Supa Swag (Jul 6, 2011)

KIMIMARO HELPING ORO WITH THE 4TH KAZEKAGE WAS ANIME FILLER

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Kishimoto decided to incorporate that into the manga anyway.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 6, 2011)

alchemy1234 said:


> I don't really agree with that. Oro even when he had his hands and jutsu lost relatively easily against itachi. Its also established that edo tensais are not as powerful as the original shinobi, and their level of strength depends on the type of talisman being used. Even if they were as strong as the original shinobi, kabuto said that genjutsu could be used to break the jutsu. Itachi is a terrible match up for oro.



No it isnt established in fact it has been stated the contrary repeateadly. I cant see Itachi soloing Oro + Nidaime + the guy that defeated EMS. And Oro and all the Uchihas only showed to be able to hurt him via illussions, outright hypnosis is a very different matter.


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## justhatguy (Jul 6, 2011)

I dont think people should fault Oro's strength if he did do a sneak attack on the 4th.  In the history of the Naruto manga, how many ninjas were killed from a sneak attack besides fodder nins/anbu, and here we are talking about a kage being sneak attacked.  PnJ would have a major character either sense it and counter or create a replacement technique.  Major/strong characters are never done away with by sneak attacks even off panel.  So we either have to say that the 4th kazekage was fodder or oro was just that good.




alchemy1234 said:


> I don't really agree with that. Oro even when he had his hands and jutsu lost relatively easily against itachi. Its also established that edo tensais are not as powerful as the original shinobi, and their level of strength depends on the type of talisman being used. Even if they were as strong as the original shinobi, kabuto said that genjutsu could be used to break the jutsu. Itachi is a terrible match up for oro.



I have to agree that a bloodlusted Oro could beat Itachi only in the context of what the poster Orochibuto was talking about, which was that at that point in the manga when he beat the 4th Kazekage and killed Sarutobi, Oro was a supreme BAMF and top villain and the strongest character in the manga only because Itachi's abilities were not introduced yet.  From our knowledge at that point, Oro was the strongest he ever was and couldve beaten a relatively unknown and unhyped Itachi.  



UltimateDeadpool said:


> I can't remember, but wasn't that only in the anime? I recall the anime expanded more on Kimimaro than the manga did.



Yeah that was anime filler.


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## nightmaremage99 (Jul 6, 2011)

It would be silly to say that Orochimaru can roflstomp any of the kages. There is absolutely no doubt that he's ridiculously powerful and a lot of people here underestimate him quite a bit, but the kages are very strong too.

It would make no logical sense for Orochimaru to just go "Yo Yondaime Kazekage, I'm going to betray you. Let's fight!" and wait for him to be ready. More so when you remember that Orochimaru planned on crushing Konoha. He didn't have the luxury of getting himself a chance of being injured. It would make a lot more sense if he launched a surprise attack of sorts.

Afterall... Orochimaru is a smart bastard. Let's try to accept that he'll act like every smart bastards act. To say that he decided to attack the Kazekage in anything besides a surprise attack would just be insulting his intelligence.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jul 6, 2011)

Yondaime Kazekage knew about the _Edo Tensei_ which is a very strong indicator that Orochimaru employed the Jutsu against him. It may have been a surprise attack, but I don't think that alone would be enough to tip the scales.


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## cha-uzu (Jul 6, 2011)

Oro so, deserved a better death then he got... That being said. Just because Itachi bested Oro, doesn't mean that Oro was weak. Oro, was said to be kage candidate with minato. Its all about matchups.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Jul 6, 2011)

Orochimaru probably used Edo Tensei or attacked in combination with Kimimaro and Kabuto and ambushed him. Even without that he is stronger, but I do believe Oro won easily with a sneak attack.


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## Darth Xanatos (Jul 6, 2011)

People, all of you make oro look like a weakling only because of Itachi. Only because of the damned eyes of that son of a bitch. +

oro was one of the most powerful ninja in the manga, no wonder the kazekaage was destroyed by his versatility. 

I hope with all my heart that oro will be the final villain. I hope he will get his revenge on the uchihas, that he rapestomps sasuke or gets his body. Then all of you will knee down and pretend you had always believed in orochimaru sama. 
damned bandwaggoners


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## Jiraiya4Life (Jul 6, 2011)

Look at it like this, Orochimaru needed Kabuto and that bone-guy in order to kill the Kazekage.


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## Dariusd (Jul 6, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> No it isnt established in fact it has been stated the contrary repeateadly. I cant see Itachi soloing Oro + Nidaime + the guy that defeated EMS. And Oro and all the Uchihas only showed to be able to hurt him via illussions, outright hypnosis is a very different matter.



The thing about Edo was the prep time needed. Let's not mention that Itachi who is practically the master of genjutsu could have Orochimaru dispel Edo if need be as Kabuto stated himself. This really isn't a thread about bloodlust Oro vs a bloodlust Itachi but don't discount Itachi as some idiot who wouldn't think of a way out (especially if Susanoo could seal as well, or amaterasu constantly burning as the zombies reformed). Sad thing about Orochimaru was his lust for everything sharingan/uchiha that did him in and clearly.

A plausible scenario would be for Orochimaru to poison Kazekage and then attempt to kill him in his weakened state by sneak attack. You aren't going to risk your alliance by causing a huge kage level fight (think flashy terrain changing jutsus). If any of the sand's sensors took notice there would have been some serious repercussions and delays.   Orochimaru's konoha revenge plans would be kaput. I even find the use of Edo's too messy.


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## Scorpion (Jul 6, 2011)

Orochimaru probably used Edo Tensei on the Yondaime Kazekage, and had the element of surprise. 

Or he was just stronger.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 6, 2011)

Dariusd said:


> *The thing about Edo was the prep time needed*. Let's not mention that Itachi who is practically the master of genjutsu could have Orochimaru dispel Edo if need be as Kabuto stated himself. This really isn't a thread about bloodlust Oro vs a bloodlust Itachi but don't discount Itachi as some idiot who wouldn't think of a way out (especially if Susanoo could seal as well, or amaterasu constantly burning as the zombies reformed). Sad thing about Orochimaru was his lust for everything sharingan/uchiha that did him in and clearly.



Again I said THIS VERSION OF OROCHIMARU, I even said that version is different from the normal one which by the way is inferior to Itachi (the normal version) and I said it repeteadly. I even compared this special version with prep to Konan with her 6 billion exploding tags.

Again the version with prep edo tensei Kages and bloodlust > Itachi. Normal version <<<<<<< Itachi.

Itachi did defeated him yes, but via painful Tsukuyomis both times, in Sasuke case was again overpowering the illussion like dimension. What you are talking about (dispelling the edos) is outright hypnosis like in Yagura case, something Oro hasnt been shown to be vulnerable neither has Itachi shown to be able to hypnotyse kage level tiers (only Madara and Shisui have shown this ability, the other case hypnosis/mind control has only been used on fodder which show that hypnotysing someone isnt at all like simply trapping them in a genjutsu and is harder) neither has Orochimaru being vulnerable to hypnosis. What I could see happening is Itachi casting some genjutsu that will make Oro believe he has killed Itachi (like he did in Sasuke's case or like Madara did to Konan) so Oro dispell the summon thinking the danger is gone. However it will ultimately depend on Oro if he believe it or not.

Sorry Im not buying Itachi hypnotysing Orochimaru. Most likely he could kill Oro with his Tsukuyomi like he defeated him at the Akatsuki base however remember edos doesnt disappear even with the death of the caster, so even if Oro cant win in this super powered version he can at least force a draw.


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## BXisAWOL (Jul 6, 2011)

Shukaku isn't that powerful...


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## Closet Pervert (Jul 6, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Yeah because Oro can tank Jinton and reform from dust right ? And he's a Sensor to see through Muu's invisibility ?


It doesn't matter if you're a sensor. Muu's chakra is undetectable.


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## ovanz (Jul 7, 2011)

Orochimaru dare to act like a ninja and attack by the back and/or ambush?? shame on ya snake dude, this is not a series of ninjas, lets all fight with honour!.


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## Addy (Jul 7, 2011)

kiminmaro did orochimaru's grunt work


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## Savage (Jul 7, 2011)

It was a suprise attack. If Oro deliberatley killed him then the Sand and Sound wouldn't have invaded konoha together.


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## Tengu (Jul 7, 2011)

Orochimaru was more powerful than Gara's dad.
I think he asked to follow him in the desert, because he has something to show him, and there he killed him.


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## DanE (Jul 7, 2011)

Orochimaru is very powerful so I wouldn't be surprised if he defeated him in a normal battle.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 7, 2011)

Lets not forget that Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya. During the Sannin battle, Orochimaru said there was a small gap between Orochimaru and Jiraiya power level. He outright stated he was more powerful than the sannin and Jiraiya did not even deny it. 

So be careful who you underestimate.


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## ellodarlin (Jul 7, 2011)

I think a mountain is being made out of the molehill that is Yondaime Kazekage's jutsu.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Lets not forget that Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya. During the Sannin battle, Orochimaru said there was a small gap between Orochimaru and Jiraiya power level. He outright stated he was more powerful than the sannin and Jiraiya did not even deny it.
> 
> So be careful who you underestimate.



Oro stronger then the Jiraiya who fought Pain ? Wtf am i reading ?  U just mad that Itachi admitted inferiority towards Jiraiya and was forced to use his strongest offensive jutsu against Jiraiya's B-ranked jutsu 
Jiraiya >>>>>>> Itachi ,manga cannon


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 7, 2011)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Oro stronger then the Jiraiya who fought Pain ? Wtf am i reading ?  U just mad that Itachi admitted inferiority towards Jiraiya and was forced to use his strongest offensive jutsu against Jiraiya's B-ranked jutsu
> Jiraiya >>>>>>> Itachi ,manga cannon



This thread has nothing to do with Itachi and you bring him up.  

Your just mad that manga said Orochimaru > Jiraiya. Deal with it!

Manga and Jiraiya > Your Opinion

Orochimaru said he is more powerful than Jiraiya, and Jiraiya did not deny it.


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## goldendriger (Jul 7, 2011)

Are you saying Orochimaru attacked the 4th Kazekage when he wasnt expecting it? Who does he think he is? a ninja? What BS is this? =O


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## Kanki (Jul 7, 2011)

How do we know that Orochimaru didn't impersonate the 4th for a week to recover? I haven't seen anything to suggest he went straight from killing the Kazekage to destroying the leaf.


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## Dark Red Z (Jul 7, 2011)

I thought it was obvious that Orochimaru used a cheap shot.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Jul 7, 2011)

Dark Red Z said:


> I thought it was obvious that Orochimaru used a cheap shot.



It should be since in the flash back the Kazekage was still suited up in his Kage outfit.


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## vagnard (Jul 7, 2011)

From the context of the manga it seems it was a surprise attack. It would be totally in character. 

That doesn't mean Oro isn't stronger than Gaara's dad. But it would be stupid for someone like Oro take an stupid risk against a kage. 

Full power Oro was most likely stronger than Yondaime Kazekage given he was toying with Old Sandaime Hokage. But certainly not to the point he can stomp him and risk his life just for lulz.


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## Yuna (Jul 7, 2011)

There was a distinct lack of golden sand in the area where he was found, so unless Orochimaru moved the bodies, yes, I would say it was an ambush.


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## Hasan (Jul 9, 2011)

No, simply because it would make Itachi's feat of soloing Oro _lame_. Now people don't want that to happen.  

Orochimaru > Kazekage, that's why he won.


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## Hero of Shadows (Jul 9, 2011)

You're massively overestimating the Shukaku and thus overhiping Gaara's dad,it was the weakest demon and the fact that he managed to counter his jutsu meens just that that he countered it.

 On the other hand a sick Oro was toying around with 4T Kyubi.


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## slickcat (Jul 9, 2011)

oro is def strong but his method of fighting is solely on his durability and full skin shredding, we havent really seen much from him to be conclusive


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## Raiden (Jul 9, 2011)

Probably. Most of Orochimaru's actions have been grounded in trickery and slyness.


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## Aazadan (Jul 9, 2011)

The Kazekage thinks it's Orochimaru that resurrected them.  He fought Oro long enough to have had Edo Tensei used against him.  It had to have been more than a single sneak attack for that reason alone.


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## LeeTheG7 (Jul 9, 2011)

Hero of Shadows said:


> You're massively overestimating the Shukaku and thus overhiping Gaara's dad,it was the weakest demon and the fact that he managed to counter his jutsu meens just that that he countered it.
> 
> On the other hand a sick Oro was toying around with 4T Kyubi.



I can understand people that say Deidara toyed with Gaara or Kisame toyed with Killer Bee. However Orochimaru got smacked around the whole fight just because he can repair himself like Cell from DBZ doesn't mean he isn't getting stomped. For example Cell toyed with Vegeta but the Gohan SS2 vs Cell was more like Kyubii vs Orochimaru.


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## Yuna (Jul 9, 2011)

Aazadan said:


> The Kazekage thinks it's Orochimaru that resurrected them.  He fought Oro long enough to have had Edo Tensei used against him.  It had to have been more than a single sneak attack for that reason alone.


Or maybe they both sat down and discussed battle plans. I doubt they both went to war with nothing more than "You do your thing and I'll do my thing".

There's a distinct lack of a presence of Gold Sand where Yondaime Kazekage's body was found. Also, Yondaime and his bodyguards bodies were all found next to each other. If it really was a drawn-out battle, they wouldn't be so close together unless they stuck together, even after the others died.

So I'm gonna say, ambush.


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## Aazadan (Jul 10, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Or maybe they both sat down and discussed battle plans. I doubt they both went to war with nothing more than "You do your thing and I'll do my thing".
> 
> There's a distinct lack of a presence of Gold Sand where Yondaime Kazekage's body was found. Also, Yondaime and his bodyguards bodies were all found next to each other. If it really was a drawn-out battle, they wouldn't be so close together unless they stuck together, even after the others died.
> 
> So I'm gonna say, ambush.



How do you know there's a lack of gold sand?  No character commented on the lack of sand.  His technique should have been well known, wouldn't it make more sense for them to see gold sand and say nothing since that's what would be expected?  If a character had made a comment about gold sand that supported this you would have a point, but the ninja's that found the kazekage's corpse didn't notice anything unexpected, and since gold sand would be expected from him, you can assume gold sand was there.

When it comes to battle plans it's possible, but how often is it that ninjas reveal their absolute strongest techniques freely?  Particularly ones they're not known for having?  ET was Oro's trump card to take out a village, and something he very possibly used against the kazekage.  I don't think he would have shown it off.  The conversation probably would have gone more along the lines of Oro using his reputation/status as a top tier ninja and the fact that he knew Hiruzen well to justify him having the ability to kill the third.  To back this up, Oro didn't bring out ET until a barrier was up around the third and outside ninjas couldn't see inside.  He clearly wanted to keep the technique a secret.

Next, regardless of how much we've seen of him, the 4th kazekage was a kage level ninja, he was pretty obviously a formidable opponent just by virtue of his title.  Ninja's of that level aren't caught completely unaware and unable to perform any type of counter attack in response.

Finally, and this is an important point to consider, we never saw the kazekage or his bodyguards die.  We know where the bodies were found but not where they were when everything went down.  Oro could have moved the bodies for whatever reason (add mystery to what happened, gather them up for the et ritual, etc).  All we saw is a small scene of what happened when the bodies were discovered.


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## The Wired (Jul 10, 2011)

Orochimaru may have ambushed him but who gives a flying fuck.. Even if they fought full on I would still bet on oro.. I base that on little however except my own power scaling which is worthless in this case since I know nothing of gaara's dad's strength..   I have never liked how orochimaru gets no respect on this forum. All because of a loss to itachi. Itachi could have probably beat the current raikage who is widely considered the strongest kage..  So I find this to be a bunch of bullshit to be quite frank.


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## Friday (Jul 10, 2011)

lol to people saying that it was just some sneak attack because Naruto is a ninja manga. Yeah.. I doubt many ninjas can fly or summon gigantic 3 headed dogs.


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## Time Expired (Jul 10, 2011)

Lol, knowing Orochimaru - he probably messed around for awhile, let them believe they were going to make it, and then killed the kage in front of his guards before ending their lives.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Jul 10, 2011)

Tbh, I am thinking orochimaru is just that strong, in part 1, quite frankly, after itachi, he was hyped as pretty much the strongest ninja around. I don't reckon any of the kages could probably have beaten full power edo preped orochimaru or even non preped orochi for that matter. 

Sandaime was still considered the strongest kage at that time (which, I know is up for debate), but if orochimaru was bloodlusted and not pissing around, he would have destroyed hiruzen most probably. 

Its not a stretch to believe that orochimaru was simply too great for yondaime kazekage 1 vs 1.


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## Prince Vegeta (Jul 10, 2011)

No Orochimaru was strong enough to beat the Hokage so why not Kazekage?


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## Missing_Nin (Jul 11, 2011)

Kanali said:


> Well obviously the Fourth Kazekage wouldn't expect his ally to suddenly kill him. Its possible he used Edo Tensei on him too, or Orochimaru was just the superior ninja. People don't give him nearly as much credit as he's due, and we've barely seen shit from Gaaa's Dad.



who would be stupid enough to not always be on guard when around someone like oro?  oh and bijuus are overhype as crap on NF.


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## chipnoses (Jul 11, 2011)

Corax said:


> No because he was stronger. Golden sand is good but only vs sand.In over aspects it isnt much more dangerous than Gaara s sand.




And you base your information about the golden sand on what, one manga episode?


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## chipnoses (Jul 11, 2011)

hellohi said:


> This.
> 
> The problem with most people on this forum is that they think that because Ninja A can beat Ninja B, and Ninja B beats Ninja C, Ninja A can beat Ninja C too.
> 
> Plus Orochimaru had Kimimmaro(however you spell that) with him.




Yeah, people forget that Kimimmaro (CS 2)
 went all out in that fight, leaving him in a very messed up state afterwards.

Also Kabuto was with them.


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## Stermor (Jul 11, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Yeah because Oro can tank Jinton and reform from dust right ? And he's a Sensor to see through Muu's invisibility ?



orochimaru probebly has a way to sense muu, either by having snakes everywhere watching, physical observation, by smelling him.. or just hearing him.. 

or he might have the same barrier as jiriaya... 

invisibility is a nice perk, it is not the end all be all.. hiruzen can fight blind easily enough, zabuza wouldn't have a problem with it either.. ninja have so many ways arround it that if you know he''s in the fight, him sneaking up on you shouldn't be an issue...


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