# Who can solo the Sannin?



## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

Who can solo the Sannin? (Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru--before the War arc.)
Conditions:

Restrictions: Only the typical unbalanced stuff like Koto Amatsukami, Edo Tensei... Etc.
Battlegrounds: Sannin vs Hanzo.
Knowledge:Full for both sides of the cavalry.
Mindset: In character.

Go.


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## ARGUS (Apr 24, 2014)

Naruto
Sasuke
Madara 
hashirama 
Sage of the six paths 
Kaguya
Indra 
ashura 
Hagoromos Brother
8th gate guy 
obiito
edo minato 
nagato 
dsm kabuto,, 
prime hanzo
prime hiruzen
possibly Killer Bee


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## Ghost (Apr 24, 2014)

Naruto
Sasuke
Madara
Guy
Bee
Minato
Hashirama
Madara
Nagato
Obito
















Hanzo.


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## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm I the only person who thinks Edo Itachi could?


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## Ghost (Apr 24, 2014)

Larcher said:


> I'm I the only person who thinks Edo Itachi could?



Yep, he could. Amaterasu + clone spam GG. Also living Itachi with full knowledge while the Sannin have none at all would take it.


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## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Yep, he could. Amaterasu + clone spam GG. Also living Itachi with full knowledge while the Sannin have none at all would take it.



Exactly. No need for Susano.

INB4 "But... But he admitted Jiraiya is his equal."


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## Ghost (Apr 24, 2014)

inb4 torjan


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## Legendary Itachi (Apr 24, 2014)

- Hagoromo
- Kaguya
- Indra
- Asura
- Madara
- Hashirama
- Obito (MS and above)
- Naruto (KCM and above)
- Edo Minato
- Sasuke (pre-PS EMS and above)
- Nagato
- Edo Itachi
- Edo Tobirama
- SM Kabuto
- Pain
- Bijuu form Bee
- 8th Gated Gai 

Same old, same old.


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## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

saikyou said:


> inb4 torjan



I like Minato, actually, I just wish Elia didn't vent his inclinations to Minato... Via dehyping Itachi. 

INB4SSM12, too.


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## Ersa (Apr 24, 2014)

Edo Itachi can most definitely, Sick Itachi however cannot.

Basically anyone in that tier can solo the Sannin, the likes of KCM Naruto, Edo Itachi, Nagato, Minato and SM Kabuto are the minimum level of power needed. The Sannin are still fairly strong together.


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## Mercurial (Apr 24, 2014)

- Current Juubidara
- Alive Rinnegan + SM Madara
- Edo Madara
- EMS Madara
- Hashirama
- New Mode (name?) Naruto
- BSM Naruto
- BM Naruto
- KCM Naruto
- New Mode (name?) Sasuke
- EMS Sasuke
- Tobirama
- Minato
- KCM/BM Minato
- Current MS Kakashi
- Current Gated Gai (no need for 8th Gate)
- MS Obito
- MS + Rinnegan Obito
- Juubito
- Itachi
- Edo Itachi
- DSM Kabuto
- Nagato
- Six Paths of Pain
- Kaguya
- Indra
- Asura
- Hagoromo

The manga evolved. Don't rest locked in the past. All these people stomp the Sannin or defeat them more times than not.

Also I'd say that Bee, Mu and the 3rd Raikage have some chances.


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## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Edo Itachi can most definitely, Sick Itachi however cannot.
> 
> Basically anyone in that tier can solo the Sannin, the likes of KCM Naruto, Edo Itachi, Nagato, Minato and SM Kabuto are the minimum level of power needed. The Sannin are still fairly strong together.



Your forgetting the possibilities of  A Healthy Itachi being stronger than sick Itachi, though.


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## Ersa (Apr 24, 2014)

Healthy Itachi is unknown at this point, we only have his Edo form and his sick living self to judge really. I feel stamina will still be somewhat of an issue for him even while healthy and MS backlash in general is bad no matter what kind of health you're in. His Edo form affords him clones and nigh-limitless Susanoo use to defend against 99% of the Sannin's arsenal and spammable Amaterasu, clones and Susanoo (YM & Totsuka) afford him ample firepower to bury them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 24, 2014)

*Solo with 0 difficulty : *


8 Gated Gai
Juubidara
Juubito
Current sasuke
Current Naruto
Rikodou Sennin, his mother and his sons
*Solo with almost 0 difficulty : *


SM Hashirama
VOTE Madara
Edo Madara
BSM Naruto
PS EMS Sasuke
Edo Minato

*Solo with minor - some difficulty : *


Rinnegan Obito + paths
Nagato
SM Kabuto with favorable circumstances

*Solo with mid - extreme difficulty :*


Healthy Itachi
Minato
KCM Naruto
EMS Sasuke(pre PS)

*Could potentially solo but not very likely : 
*

Kirabi
Onoki
A
Sick Itachi
MS Sasuke


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## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Healthy Itachi is unknown at this point, we only have his Edo form and his sick living self to judge really. I feel stamina will still be somewhat of an issue for him even while healthy and MS backlash in general is bad no matter what kind of health you're in. His Edo form affords him clones and nigh-limitless Susanoo use to defend against 99% of the Sannin's arsenal and spammable Amaterasu, clones and Susanoo (YM & Totsuka) afford him ample firepower to bury them.



I totally agree that it's abilities are still unknown besides the fanfic section, I was simply raising the matter up for discussion.


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## RedChidori (Apr 24, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> - Hagoromo
> - Kaguya
> - Indra
> - Asura
> ...



This .


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## FlamingRain (Apr 24, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Edo Itachi can most definitely, Sick Itachi however cannot.



Does being an Edo give Itachi a counter to _Yomi Numa_?



> Basically anyone in that tier can solo the Sannin, the likes of KCM Naruto, Edo Itachi, Nagato, Minato and SM Kabuto are the minimum level of power needed. The Sannin are still fairly strong together.



KCM Naruto and Nagato are the only ones in that list who might solo the Sannin.


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## Mercurial (Apr 24, 2014)

Before or after that Itachi blitzed his ass with Totsuka?


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## Nikushimi (Apr 24, 2014)

Kaguya
Hagoromo
Madara
Juubito
Indra
Ashura
Hashirama
Naruto
Sasuke
Rinnegan Obito w/ Jinchuuriki Pain
Itachi
Nagato
Minato
Pain
Kabuto
Tobirama
4th Raikage
3rd Raikage
Killer B
Gai*



^They can all solo the Sannin, with varying chances of success and difficulty.


*Gai dies because he needs the 8th Gate to do it, but he CAN do it.


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## Rocky (Apr 24, 2014)

Ei cannot kill all 3 Sannin.  

As fantastic as that would be, he would need...some pretty stacked conditions to even have a chance. Like a 1m distance, starting at max power, with the Sannin having no knowledge of him and him having full....but even then, Orochimaru & Tsunade can regenerate from his attacks unless decapitation kills them.


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## Kazekage94 (Apr 24, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> - Hagoromo
> - Kaguya
> - Indra
> - Asura
> ...



Pain isn't winning. Jiraya did well with no knowledge at all. 
It could go either way with Edo Itachi
Tobirama isn't winning alone.


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## Kazekage94 (Apr 24, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> - Current Juubidara
> - Alive Rinnegan + SM Madara
> - Edo Madara
> - EMS Madara
> ...



Kakashi isn't winning against The Sannin and their summons


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## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Does being an Edo give Itachi a counter to _Yomi Numa_?


First things first, Itachi having unlimited stamina and full knowledge means he'll go into close quarters overwhelming them all with multiple Bunshin and Amaterasu spams, before Jiraiya can activate Yumi Numa. Second of all, it's a slow technique to which Itachi can quickly evade and I'm pretty sure that Susano'o is way... more intense than the snake Jiraiya used it on. EMS Sasuke would do almost exactly the same.





> KCM Naruto and Nagato are the only ones in that list who might solo the Sannin.


Naruto bam flashes, same with Minato

Nagato can use multiple summonings to expand his vision further to predict most of there attacks. Then he can use Almighty push to repel there summons, as shown in his fight with Naruto as well as the Sannin themselves and all there Physical attacks. (Same thing Jugokudo for there Ninjutsu.) I don't think even think Jiraiya's Frog song would be effective with knowledge, Nagato could probably blow the sound wave elsewhere. But I think, it's fair to say that they'll be creamed Chibiki Tensei long before any of that would come into play.

You seem to be forgetting Killer  Bee, too. None of the Sannin have powerful enough attacks to cause relevant enough harm to both the V1/V2 Hachibi--Orochimaru can't even get close to penetrete a four tailed Kyubi cloak... via his Snake sword, let alone, an eight-tailed Hachibi. And don't say Yumi Numa, Killer Bee has shown more than enough strength to tense out of it. There summons won't stand A chance, either. There defensive capabilities are far... to insufficient to survive all the Hachibi's, the sheer destruction. It will quickly overwhelm them. The match up is more or less over when Bee launches a Biju-Dama. I highly doubt Tsunades regeneration will work against something of Biju-Dama's magnitude. The triple Roshoman would be futile, cannon, even if it survived one time... Killer Bee can fire consecutive Biju-Dama.

So it's just an eventual procces of an undeniable fate. And frog song won't work on A perfect Jinchuriki. In conclusion, Killer Bee shuves a tentacle up there ass, GG.:ignoramus


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## StickaStick (Apr 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *Solo with 0 difficulty : *
> 
> 
> 8 Gated Gai
> ...



This looks about right except I would qualify Healthy Itachi as Edo and most of the "could potentially solo but not very likely" don't have a sliver of a  shot IMO.


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## Bonly (Apr 24, 2014)

Madara
Hashi
Minato
Naruto 
Sasuke
Killer B
Nagato
Obito
8th Gate Gai
Prime Hiruzen


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 24, 2014)

Solo the Sannin why restrict Edo Tensei when thats Orochimaru's strongest technique , I'm going to assume you mean Sannin  at their absolute strongest 

Version 1 Sannin 

Orochimaru Pt 1 


BM/SM Naruto

Current Sasuke

Madara(War Arc)

Kaguya

Indra

Ashura

Rikudo

Juubito

Current Naruto

Hashirama/BM Minato(maybe)

Kabuto



version 2 Sannin


Orochimaru w Edo Hokage 


Juubito

Juubidara

Current Naruto

Current Sasuke

Kaguya

Rikudo



Version 3 Orochimaru no Edo Tensei


Hashirama

BM/SM Minato

BM/SM Naruto

Madara(all forms)

Kabuto

Obvious Rikudo level characters


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## Nikushimi (Apr 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Ei cannot kill all 3 Sannin.
> 
> As fantastic as that would be, he would need...some pretty stacked conditions to even have a chance. Like a 1m distance, starting at max power, with the Sannin having no knowledge of him and him having full



The world feels like it's made of sunshine when I imagine that.



> ....but even then, Orochimaru & Tsunade can regenerate from his attacks unless decapitation kills them.



Let's see them regenerate from being cut right down the middle.

Or the Raikage can just cut their bodies apart and use his speed to snatch up the pieces and run them off to faraway hiding spots. That could be pretty funny, too.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Let's see them regenerate from being cut right down the middle.



Casual stuff for Oro. A can't beat Orochimaru unless you restrict 3/4 of Oro's arsenal. Distance wouldn't matter.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 24, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Casual stuff for Oro. A can't beat Orochimaru unless you restrict 3/4 of Oro's arsenal. Distance wouldn't matter.



_*Down*_ the middle, not across the middle.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 24, 2014)

What difference would that make? Orochimaru can recreate his whole body from pure chakra basically. Him emerging from Sasuke and later Anko made it clear.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 24, 2014)

Orochimaru was revived from Anko via Juugo's power with a lump of Kabuto's flesh. He only emerged from Sasuke after Sasuke's chakra had been depleted, and remained attached to his body.

There is nothing to suggest he can survive being cut through from head to crotch. Nothing.

Orochimaru's not unkillable. He dodged Tsunade's kick and Sasuke's Kusanagi slash, so it is evidently possible to kill him with physical attacks. Even if it was overkill, he admitted himself that Naruto's Bijuudama could do it.

Raikage peels him like a banana.


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## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

@Nikushimi 

Your gonna make Turrin cry saying Ei can solo the Sannin. He'll start comparing him to Sai again.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 24, 2014)

The Raikage could literally feed all three Sannin to Sai.

...Even I don't want that picture in my head, though.


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## Larcher (Apr 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The Raikage could literally feed all three Sannin to Sai.
> 
> ...Even I don't want that picture in my head, though.



If only Kishimoto went Seinin.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru was revived from Anko via Juugo's power with a lump of Kabuto's flesh.


 And he emerged in Yamata form from Sasuke... without any catalyst. He existed as basically just a soul. The moment he got the chance he appeared as a giant 8 headed monster + full new body. He wasn't physically sealed inside Sasuke either, we saw his White Snake form destroyed after Fushi Tensei. Just his soul. Not to mention that current Oro with Zetsu's abilities and regen is going to laugh at Raikage's puny offense.



Nikushimi said:


> There is nothing to suggest he can survive being cut through from head to crotch. Nothing.


 You just went full Turrin here.



Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru's not unkillable. He dodged Tsunade's kick and Sasuke's Kusanagi slash, so it is evidently possible to kill him with physical attacks. Even if it was overkill, he admitted himself that Naruto's Bijuudama could do it.


 Err, why would he waste chakra on regen when he can simply dodge? Bijudama would have completely erased his physical body. Of course he would be "killed" by that. Raikage needs something similar - to completely destroy Oro's body with one attack. And he lacks that.


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## Cyphon (Apr 24, 2014)

These threads crop up too often and too often people give bad answers. 

If they aren't legends or haven't received super power ups more recently there likely isn't a chance of them winning. 

Doesn't get any more simple than that.


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## Dominus (Apr 24, 2014)

Hagoromo
Indra
Ashura
Kaguya
Madara
Sasuke
Obito
Hashirama
Naruto
Minato (with Kurama's chakra)
Nagato
Gai (only with the 8th Gate)


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## The Undying (Apr 24, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> These threads crop up too often and too often people give bad answers.
> 
> If they aren't legends or haven't receiver super power ups more recently there likely isn't a chance of them winning.
> 
> Doesn't get any more simple than that.




Yeah, and to be perfectly honest it's starting to get a little irritating.

Anyways...

Kaguya
Hagoromo
Ashura
Indra
Hashirama
Madara (literally any form)
Naruto
Sasuke
Minato + Kurama
8th Gate Guy
Obito


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## ueharakk (Apr 24, 2014)

I'll take the phrase 'can solo the sannin' as meaning 'having at least a 50% chance of success'.

With that said:
Bee
KCM/BM/BSM/current Naruto
EMS/current Sasuke
Nagato
Rinnegan/JJ Obito
Gai
EMS/rinnegan/edo/jj madara
the RS immediate family
Hashirama
edo Minato


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## Ersa (Apr 24, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Does being an Edo give Itachi a counter to _Yomi Numa_?


Being a lot faster then Base Jiraiya and having a quicker jutsu that doesn't require seals (Amaterasu) on top of spammable Karasu or Shadow clones will be ample to stop Jiraiya from Yomi Numa, irregardless of the other two.



> KCM Naruto and Nagato are the only ones in that list who might solo the Sannin.


There is no might.

Nagato flattens them low difficulty, he already murdered weakened KCM Naruto and B. In that weakened state KCM Naruto still said he was much stronger then his Pain Arc SM counterpart who was already stronger then Jiraiya. B by himself is comfortably above Tsunade.

The Sannin have no way to deal with V2 Ei+ speeds or KCM clones either, KCM Naruto will run them down with Kurama-amplified FRS. Without SM, Naruto can literally blitz Jiraiya and plant a mini-FRS into his head and kill him instantly. It's doubtful 3.5 speed Tsunade and 4.5 speed Orochimaru can follow someone who moves faster then MS Sasuke can track with Sharingan.

As for the rest I listed, the Sannin have a fair chance at them but only if Jiraiya starts in SM imo. I'd still favour them over the Sannin though.


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## trance (Apr 24, 2014)

Everyone Nagato and up.


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## ARGUS (Apr 25, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Does being an Edo give Itachi a counter to _Yomi Numa_?


YN most likely paralyses ur movement and  decreases mobility,,, however itachi having the ability of using large scale susanoo attacks along with amterasu,,, both of these attacks that require almost no movement or hand seals,,, gives Itachi the ability to counter YN


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Apr 25, 2014)

I consider the Sannin as a benchmark of sorts for the top tiers. In respect to that, I'll have to say Nagato and anyone above him.

Can't see any form of Itachi managing it, to be honest.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 25, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Hagoromo
> Indra
> Ashura
> Kaguya
> ...



This guy got it. But i would also add kabuto with edo tensei.

I cannot believe i see edo itachi on peoples list but living itachi doing it had me floored.


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## Necessary Evil (Apr 25, 2014)

_Kuchiyose no Jutsu_ :


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## Ersa (Apr 25, 2014)

The Gokage I feel are a benchmark for the top tiers, the Sannin not so much. Kakashi used the Gokage as a benchmark rather then the Sannin. And people forget how much Jiraiya starting in base hinders him, especially when facing people like Nagato and Edo Itachi who can bust nukes out of their ass with little repercussion due to their stamina reserves.

Sure the Sannin aren't weak but individually I wouldn't even call a fight between them and Edo Itachi a fight. He murders Tsunade in under a minute by hosing her down with Amaterasu and watching as she tries to punch Yata's Mirror, a sick dying Itachi in base already put down no-ET Orochimaru, base Jiraiya vs Edo Itachi is no different from watching Ei fight a Genin. Without ET or Jiraiya in SM, numbers and teamwork don't mean anything. Clones, Yata's Mirror, Susanoo and regeneration are ample defense to counter most of their arsenal while Edo Itachi has more then ample firepower to deal with Base Jiraiya, Tsunade and no-ET Orochimaru.

And if Jiraiya tries to hide to get into SM and let Tsunade and Orochimaru stall then the duo die very quickly.


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## Dominus (Apr 25, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> This guy got it. But i would also add kabuto with edo tensei.



Yeah, but... 





Larcher said:


> Restrictions: Only the typical unbalanced stuff like Koto Amatsukami, *Edo Tensei*... Etc.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 25, 2014)

Necessary Evil said:


> _Kuchiyose no Jutsu_ :


*Link Removed*

I have arrived :blindgodaime

______

I lol'd at Sandaime and Yondaime Raikage soloing the Sannin. I shouldn't even need to explain why that is hilariously incorrect.

Pein isn't soloing the Sannin either. Jiraiya and Tsunade have a lot of knowledge on his abilities, and I'd say Orochimaru does as well given that he was in the Akatsuki with him, was recruited into the organisation by him, and has a good bit of knowledge on the rinnegan. Even one Sannin would give Pein a run for his money, three is simply too much. 

Kakashi is not soloing the Sannin either  He gets absolutely murdered. Onoki gets spanked equally as hard.

I don't believe Itachi could solo either, even if by feats he is a mary-sue with a counter for everything, I just don't believe he is at a level or portrayed at a level to defeat these three shinobi at once.

Asides from that, I agree with every other response in this thread. Hashirama, KCM Minato, Nagato, Kabuto, Killer Bee, Naruto, Sasuke, Reincarnated Madara and 8 gated Gai. That's about it, imo.​​


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 25, 2014)

Hagoromo
Kaguya
Indra
Asura
Madara
Hashirama
Obito (Juubi Jin) - Sharingan/Rinnegan Obito would probably kill either one or two of them but I can see their teamwork coming out victories
Naruto (KCM and above)
Edo Minato
Sasuke (pre-PS EMS and above)
Edo Tobirama
SM Kabuto (Edo Tensei)
Bijuu form Bee (only if he enters this state before he dies)
8th Gated Gai

 at Ei soloing the Sannin. Not sure if series or trolling


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## Jad (Apr 25, 2014)

Gai solo'ing the Sannin?


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## LostSelf (Apr 25, 2014)

Ignoring the obvious (We all know who).

Nagato.
Itachi with KA and a good scenario.
KCM Naruto as well.
Full sized Exodia.

Pain is not soloing the Sannin. But come on, one Sannin has little chances against him.


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## Larcher (Apr 25, 2014)

@Godaime Tsunade

None of what you said addressing the outcome against Itachi has little to no analysis on feats. I don't know how there going to last that long against Edo Itachi. With full knowledge, Itachi will quickly go Kage Bunshin go in close quarters, which overwhelm them. It'll only be A matter of time until they'll all succumb to Ameterasu spams, long before Jiraiya could get into Sage Mode or do Yumi Numa. 

Even then, Susano'O is way too... intense for the likes of the Sannin. Tsunade punches are A baby having a paddy in comparison to Yata Mirror, nor will Katsuya do anything-- she'll just get in the way. Same with any of the the trio's summons. Yumi Numa will get neutralised with Ameterasu and that will be game over after that.


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## Rob (Apr 25, 2014)

Itachi? Nah


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## Ersa (Apr 25, 2014)

Larcher said:


> @Godaime Tsunade
> 
> None of what you said addressing the outcome against Itachi has little to no analysis on feats. I don't know how there going to last that long against Edo Itachi. With full knowledge, Itachi will quickly go Kage Bunshin go in close quarters, which overwhelm them. It'll only be A matter of time until they'll all succumb to Ameterasu spams, long before Jiraiya could get into Sage Mode or do Yumi Numa.
> 
> Even then, Susano'O is way too... intense for the likes of the Sannin. Tsunade punches are A baby having a paddy in comparison to Yata Mirror, nor will Katsuya do anything-- she'll just get in the way. Same with any of the the trio's summons. Yumi Numa will get neutralised with Ameterasu and that will be game over after that.


Well I do remember reading arguments saying Tsunade could punch open V4 Susanoo because she punched open ribcage. Such logic was and still is beyond me.

Or the infamous "Yata has no feats" so anyone can break it argument.


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## Larcher (Apr 25, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Well I do remember reading arguments saying Tsunade could punch open V4 Susanoo because she punched open ribcage. Such logic was and still is beyond me.
> 
> Or the infamous "Yata has no feats" so anyone can break it argument.



I don't get why people say Susano'o has different durability levels dependant on the caster. No such thing has been or indicated. The only difference is Itachi's Susano'o ~in perfect form~ is amplified in durability, because of Yata Mirror.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 25, 2014)

Larcher said:


> @Godaime Tsunade
> 
> None of what you said addressing the outcome against Itachi has little to no analysis on feats. I don't know how there going to last that long against Edo Itachi. With full knowledge, Itachi will quickly go Kage Bunshin go in close quarters, which overwhelm them. It'll only be A matter of time until they'll all succumb to Ameterasu spams, long before Jiraiya could get into Sage Mode or do Yumi Numa.
> 
> Even then, Susano'O is way too... intense for the likes of the Sannin. Tsunade punches are A baby having a paddy in comparison to Yata Mirror, nor will Katsuya do anything-- she'll just get in the way. Same with any of the the trio's summons. Yumi Numa will get neutralised with Ameterasu and that will be game over after that.



I know - I readily admitted that I was almost completely disregarding feats because I don't think Kishimoto would ever create a situation in the manga where Itachi could take on and defeat all three Sannin at once. There are arguments I could create based on feats to prove why he would lose, but I find it easier and quicker to assert that as far as portrayal is concerned, I see Itachi as below the combined strength of the Legendary trio.



Ersatz said:


> Well I do remember reading arguments saying Tsunade could punch open V4 Susanoo because she punched open ribcage. Such logic was and still is beyond me.



Repeated punches would shatter Susano'o. It would take a lot of hits but it would shatter eventually, that is common sense. 



> Or the infamous "Yata has no feats" so anyone can break it argument.



In that case, you would be implying that the Yata mirror can survive Juubi bijuu-damas, Night Gais, Yin-Yang Release, all ten hits from Evening Elephant and any of current Naruto's rasenshuriken variants. Which, for a featless shield, seems out of the question. 

I'd say it is very hard to break and Tsunade's strikes would take a very long time to shatter it, but even that is just a guess.​​


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## Dr. White (Apr 25, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I know *- I readily admitted that I was almost completely disregarding feats* because I don't think Kishimoto would ever create a situation in the manga where Itachi could take on and defeat all three Sannin at once.
> 
> 
> 
> In that case, you would be implying that the Yata mirror can survive Juubi bijuu-damas, Night Gais, Yin-Yang Release, all ten hits from Evening Elephant and any of current Naruto's rasenshuriken variants. Which,* for a featless shield, seems out of the question.* ​



Cognitive dissonance? hype would help yata more than the sanin title because combat matchups are way more variable than the qualities of items.

Yata has some of the best hype out there via Madara's will. Susano itself is a special technique that borders on god like, Totsuka and Yata are referered to as legendary spiritual weapons and together called invisible. Similar to Saindaime Raikage (who fought a bjuu for days) except that not only is susano more relevant but it isn't human and derives from MS one of the most hyped and relevant things in this manga. Why does yata not get the same treatment as the sanin hype? Yin/Yang can't be tanked because it isn't chakra from the 5 elemental wheel. Night Gai destroys, and Evening elephant is up in the Air since Susano without yata could tank Kirin.​


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## Larcher (Apr 25, 2014)

@Godaime Tsunade

That's just a cop out, though. Using that logic, how come you consider Bee as quite A high possibility? Edo Itachi already saved Bee and Naruto's ass against Nagato plus stood his ground against both on separate occasions. Surely that conveys a similar sense of portrayel?


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## Ersa (Apr 25, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Repeated punches would shatter Susano'o. It would take a lot of hits but it would shatter eventually, that is common sense.​



Eh, what?

The levels of durability rise tremendously when Susanoo gains muscles, armour and then a shield. If I can break a man's ribs when there's nothing covering them then it doesn't mean I could do the same with 10 hits if suddenly there's muscle over the ribs and the man decides to don some medieval knight armour.

Tsunade has shown nothing to remotely suggest she can break higher forms of Susanoo even if the user is dumb enough to let her wail on it for a while. Skeletal Susanoo I'd agree with a few hits but I doubt she'll put a dent in the higher formes, especially if they use their shields.



> In that case, you would be implying that the Yata mirror can survive Juubi bijuu-damas, Night Gais, Yin-Yang Release, all ten hits from Evening Elephant and any of current Naruto's rasenshuriken variants. Which, for a featless shield, seems out of the question.
> 
> I'd say it is very hard to break and Tsunade's strikes would take a very long time to shatter it, but even that is just a guess.


​But not exactly impossible if you stick to what the mangaka iterated in the databook he wrote and the manga he created. Of course I don't believe it can tank those attacks but the hype itself is real and to suggest an attack like Tsunade's punch can break it I'm sorry shows a serious lack of reading comprehension. Not trying to insult anyone here.

We kinda saw what happened when Sasuke tried to stab the shield. I'd imagine something similar would happen if Tsunade punched it. After all Kishimoto does say "all physical attacks".  While it may not apply to god-like powers (RS powers/8th Gate/Juubi Jins), Tsunade is not a god nor a top tier in this manga. I'd buy the Yata hype when it comes to her.


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## LostSelf (Apr 25, 2014)

I think Susano'o regenerate as well. Like _Flamingrain_ said a long while ago by now, Tsunade cracked Madara's Susano'o with a punch and sent it flying. But when Madara was shown again, the crack was not there anymore.

Therefore i don't see multiple punches breaking it. Either way, one punch would send Susano'o flying like it happened to Madara (unless she cannot hit a heavier version that hard to make it fly). So i don't see Tsunade landing 10 consecutive hits to break it.


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## Vice (Apr 25, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Everyone Nagato and up.



This guy gets it. Nobody below the level of Nagato is doing shit to the sannin 1 on 3.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Cognitive dissonance? hype would help yata more than the sanin title because combat matchups are way more variable than the qualities of items.
> 
> Yata has some of the best hype out there via Madara's will. Susano itself is a special technique that borders on god like, Totsuka and Yata are referered to as legendary spiritual weapons and together called invisible. Similar to Saindaime Raikage (who fought a bjuu for days) except that not only is susano more relevant but it isn't human and derives from MS one of the most hyped and relevant things in this manga. Why does yata not get the same treatment as the sanin hype? Yin/Yang can't be tanked because it isn't chakra from the 5 elemental wheel. Night Gai destroys, and Evening elephant is up in the Air since Susano without yata could tank Kirin.



My problem with that though, is that they were merely statements, that occurred only once in the manga, and are more than likely _hyperboles_. The databook states that the Yata mirror is made up of all nature transformations, giving it similar properties to that of Madara's Yin/Yang chakra shield. That shield, while durable, was eventually destroyed by a strong enough attack. 

At any rate, I was simply out-lining that the Yata Mirror is not indestructible as Ersatz was implying. You seem to agree with this, as you have admitted attacks such as Evening Elephant and Night Dai have the possibility of destroying it. 



Larcher said:


> @Godaime Tsunade
> 
> That's just a cop out, though. Using that logic, how come you consider Bee as quite A high possibility? Edo Itachi already saved Bee and Naruto's ass against Nagato plus stood his ground against both on separate occasions. Surely that conveys a similar sense of portrayel?



Bee is a perfect Jinchuuriki - he can turn into a full bijuu and fire bijuudamas, that alone gives him a rather huge boost as far as portrayal is concerned. Itachi on the other hand is just one man, and his offense is not nearly as frightening. Bee survived and countered Taka's combined assault, was claimed to be more skilled than Ei and nearly defeated Kisame without even under-going a full transformation. 

Don't get me wrong - I think Itachi would give the Sannin a very hard time, I just don't think he has the man power to kill them.​​


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## Vice (Apr 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Yata has some of the best hype out there via Madara's will.



Stop it. Zetsu is only meant to follow through with Madara's plan, he's not a proxy for Madara's thoughts and opinions.



> Susano itself is a special technique that borders on god like



And yet still remains anything but infallible. 



> Totsuka and Yata are referered to as legendary spiritual weapons and together called invisible.



Invincible. And it's called hyperbole.



> Similar to Saindaime Raikage (who fought a bjuu for days) except that not only is susano more relevant but it isn't human and derives from MS one of the most hyped and relevant things in this manga.



Similar to Sandaime Raikage except that his shield hasn't been pierced by anything other than his own technique, whereas Susanoo has been cracked or outright beaten several times in the manga.



> Why does yata not get the same treatment as the sanin hype?



Because the sannin have feats whereas Yata does not.



> Yin/Yang can't be tanked because it isn't chakra from the 5 elemental wheel. Night Gai destroys, and Evening elephant is up in the Air since Susano without yata could tank Kirin.



Neither Susanoo nor Yata tanked Kirin, it got destroyed and Itachi was shown to have taken damage.


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## Larcher (Apr 25, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> My problem with that though, is that they were merely statements, that occurred only once in the manga, and are more than likely _hyperboles_. The databook states that the Yata mirror is made up of all nature transformations, giving it similar properties to that of Madara's Yin/Yang chakra shield. That shield, while durable, was eventually destroyed by a strong enough attack.
> 
> At any rate, I was simply out-lining that the Yata Mirror is not indestructible as Ersatz was implying. You seem to agree with this, as you have admitted attacks such as Evening Elephant and Night Dai have the possibility of destroying it.
> 
> ...



As much as I like Bee, his fight against Kisame was an utter stomp. Sasuke had Ameterasu in that fight, when he fought Itachi... he didn't. Itachi was also sick and holding back against Sasuke. He can manoeuvre Tsukyomi in A second making his effective against perfect Jinchuriki. He can use Ameterasu: A Jutsu that was capable of tearing straight through Jiraiya's strongest defence and can tear down the Hachibi.

And to top it off, he can use Susano'o where he has abilities exclusive to his. Susano'o is already A more durable defence than Susano'o, add Yata Mirror amplifies it even more. And the Totsuka blade, not even A formidable like Killer Bee could resist the bottles call. Not to mention, he's arguably one of the smartest tacticians.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 25, 2014)

The trickiest part about Sannin as a team is... well. Their teamwork. On one hand - their title is basically a Team title. And it is their team performance that made Hanzo acknowledge their worth. There was also a statement in Databook(yeah, I know) about their teamwork being phenomenal. On the other hand... It was back then when teamwork mattered. And each member of our legendary team have changed their fighting style after splitting. White Snake, Sage Mode, Sozo Saisei/Byakugo. The core style has likely stayed the same - Toad Summoner, CQC Specialist, Snake Summoner/Kenjutsu user. But they obviously fight differently now.

Another thing I was pondering about is that maybe Sannin teamwork while good wasn't as good as for example InoShikaCho formations where they truly blend their unique abilities together. What might have made Sannin special is that there wasn't a 3-man cell of exceptional people before(only current Team 7 is close but I can't consider them a team anymore). We have strong individuals(Sakumo, Hanzo, Sarutobi) or at best pairs(Senju Bros, Kumogakure's A and B, KinGin, the Masters). So a true team of Kage-lvl who grew up together and developed decent-to-good level of teamwork is obviously going to wreck a fair amount of shit. Villages rarely have that many exceptional folks at one time. And in one team? Imagine them fighting together with younger Sarutobi? Holy shit. Makes you wonder why Konoha was struggling in that Great Shinobi War...

So we have either: 1) Sannin even with current arsenal can achieve a "level" clearly above that of a simple sum of their levels(there was that saying about sums of parts, not sure how to type it properly). In that case I see them beating someone like Nagato or MS Obito with that "Legendary Teamwork" and being slightly above Gokage unit. Edo Itachi is likely going to lose in that case too obviously. I'd like to see Kishimoto's face though. 
"Hey, you need to show our readers what Sannin are truly capable of when fighting together!"
"No problem. Who are they going to fight?"
"Reincarnated Itachi. Who is free to go all-out"
"..." 

2) Sannin teamwork is roughly on the same level as Gokage's. In that case they are going to lose to aforementioned Nagato, MS Obito and Edo Itachi. Unless Oro gets good Edo Tensei. Below Gokage unit here.

Really hard to decide. I don't care about Sannin except for Orochimaru. But "Legendary Teamwork" has that delicious Part 1 vibe that is nearly impossible to resist. Oh, well.


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## Trojan (Apr 25, 2014)

The Sage and his family
madara
Naruto
Sasuke
Guy
Minato
obito
Hashirama

That's about it in case ET is not included. However, if ET is included
then, Kabuto defeats them as well, and we can exclude Hashirama, Minato, and Guy from the list above.


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## Dr. White (Apr 25, 2014)

Vice said:


> Stop it. Zetsu is only meant to follow through with Madara's plan, he's not a proxy for Madara's thoughts and opinions.


Oh vice you never seem to amuse with the Itachi hate. Yes it was, as we see here Madara via the Gedo Mazou inserted his will into white zetsu, and called it a basic clone of himself but weaker.




> And yet still remains anything but infallible.


No one said it was KCM Naruto's abilities are godllike to most of the universe but its fallible. Susano has proven to be one of the greatest techniques in the manga. You can't deny it's power/defense.





> Invincible. And it's called hyperbole.


Yeah I know but the analogy isn't pointless, it means it is one of the best conceivable defenses a Susano user can achieve, which by Susano standards is pretty damn amazing. Also the weapons are mythical, and named after very important historical mythical artifacts highlighting their strength/rareness. 





> Similar to Sandaime Raikage except that his shield hasn't been pierced by anything other than his own technique, whereas Susanoo has been cracked or outright beaten several times in the manga.


Why are you comparing Raikage with* Susano itself*? I am comparing the *specific Yata Shield*, which blocked Orochimaru's prime Summon easily, and was never pierced or broken yet. Sandaime is also no where near durable as PS btw. 





> Because the sannin have feats whereas Yata does not.


You should read the context of the post before replying out of hate first. I specificly asked her that because she said in one paragraph that she was willing to completely disregard feats and go off of hype. Sooooooooooooooo stop





> Neither Susanoo nor Yata tanked Kirin, it got destroyed and Itachi was shown to have taken damage.



-First off the attack was natural lightning so Yata's special effect would have been moot, and from a literary standpoint it's doubtful he used it to block Kirin as Kishi introduced them later after Itachi brought out V4. 
-Reading it from a literary standpoint Itachi' used V2 or 3 to survive Kirin, as he brought it right back up to show Sasuke his Susano. 

-Finally what is your definition of tanked? If hulk gets shot by human torches AOE, and comes out burnt but alive and able to fight is that not tanked? Itachi got back up and grimaced at Sasuke after tanking a small mountain buster. Then went on to have Susan up long enough to best Oro/Yamata no Oroichi, and Sasuke's desperate ploys.(This after already abusing his whole base arsenal, and MS three times)


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## ueharakk (Apr 25, 2014)

sorry man, just couldn't let your post slide.



Dr. White said:


> Yata has some of the best hype out there via Madara's will.


madara's will =/= madara's knowledge unless you believe that madara doesn't know what susanoo is, thinks amaterasu is completely unavoidable, or marvels at the power of an attack like Kirin.



Dr. White said:


> Susano itself is a special technique that borders on god like,


the word 'god' doesn't mean anything anymore.  a rock is a 'god' to a grain of sand, an ant is a 'god' to a single celled organism.  a jounin would be a 'god' to an average human in the real world.  a saibaman would be a 'god' to the narutoverse.  etc.

At best, all it means a thing that is very powerful in respects to something else, and that depends on what that something else is. 



Dr. White said:


> Totsuka and Yata are referered to as legendary spiritual weapons and together called invincible. Similar to Saindaime Raikage (who fought a bjuu for days) except that not only is susano more relevant but it isn't human and derives from MS one of the most hyped and relevant things in this manga.


the spiritual weapons together aren't called invincible.  The spiritual weapons together with susanoo make itachi 'completely invincible' which in the context of the statement was referring to Sasuke's ability to kill itachi unless you believe that it literally makes itachi invincible.

The difference between sandaime raikage and itachi's susanoo is that sandaime raikage's hype comes almost 200 chapters (which means it's hyped in a narutoverse that's gone through a big power inflation since itachi vs sasuke), states his body is the strongest shield (which puts it above yaata), and says that his body can withstand any kind of attack.



Dr. White said:


> Why does yata not get the same treatment as the sanin hype? Yin/Yang can't be tanked because it isn't chakra from the 5 elemental wheel. Night Gai destroys, and Evening elephant is up in the Air since Susano without yata could tank Kirin.


Susanoo didn't 'tank' anything unless you want to define 'tank' as 'completely obliterated'.  This is worse than when turrin said the hachibi 'tanked' it's own bijuudama at point blank.  

And again, susanoo had to have been at least a V4 considering it protecting itachi from an attack like kirin would make it a massive outlier compared to any other susanoo durability feat.

Unless the sannin hype is 'no one but a sannin can defeat another sannin' taken to be literal, then yaata doesn't get the same treatment because it's given an obvious no-limits sttement.  

Are you saying that yaata blocks super juubidamas and naruto's most powerful Rasenshurikens?  Also, the manga and databook definition of yaata contradict each other, one says it reflects any attack, the other says it changes its nature in response to the attack making it inneffective.  If you are going by the databook definition, that doesn't even mean it's immune to the normal 5 elements, all it describes is the mechanics of the shield and how it works to defend against attacks.


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## Dr. White (Apr 25, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> sorry man, just couldn't let your post slide.


it's cool rather debate with you than Vice.




> madara's will =/= madara's knowledge unless you believe that madara doesn't know what susanoo is, thinks amaterasu is completely unavoidable, or marvels at the power of an attack like Kirin.


-Madara's will has to encompass his knowledge/character. That is why he called it a clone, and had it guide Obito (while secretly spying on him as well). Is the current Orochimaru any different, even though he was grown from Anko/sasuke, and then retained a zetsu body? 

-Madara did know what Susano was, it was mostly an art error having Black Zetsu ask what it was, as it makes no sense for him to have exclusive knowledge on the Susano weapons that (the third being the magatama) few but Itachi, and Oro knew about.
-He is using a blanket statment, that's how all jutsu/people are hyped in general. The sannin title has hype, why? because it denotes kage level and to most people that is amazing, but as you said the sannin aren't comparable to the top tiers, does this completely shit on their title? No because they are strong relative to most people hence how tiers are made. So yeah Ama from point blank to those without high/top tiers moves/reflexes to deal with it can't avoid it. 





> At best, all it means a thing that is very powerful in respects to something else, and that depends on what that something else is.


Yes and Susano was still very relevant up unto Gated Gai's rampage and Madara's fusion with the fruit. Susano is one of the strongest techs in the verse and to most it is godlike, so I don't see how you refuted my statement.




> the spiritual weapons together aren't called invincible.  The spiritual weapons together with susanoo make itachi 'completely invincible' which in the context of the statement was referring to Sasuke's ability to kill itachi unless you believe that it literally makes itachi invincible.


It can be taken both ways but it's hype is undeniable. After hearing ultimate counter to Kusanagi(one of the best swords in the manga) that seals anything and genjutusu's it plus a shield to turn back any attack? I'm going with hyperbole hype here. Just like Jiraiya saying his Toad palace was inescapable, on a general level yeah it is; once again blanket statement.



> The difference between sandaime raikage and itachi's susanoo is that sandaime raikage's hype comes almost 200 chapters (which means it's hyped in a narutoverse that's gone through a big power inflation since itachi vs sasuke), states his body is the strongest shield (which puts it above yaata), and says that his body can withstand any kind of attack.


Susano has been relevent all the way up unto this war arc, hell totsuka was the final blow to Edo Pain, after susano allowed Itachi to save Bee and Naruto, and PS is an extension of susano and it's defenses: just like totsuka and Yata. 

Also let me ask you since you still grant Raikage massive hype. What is his relevance now? Do you still think his hype is relevant to naruto verse battles? of course; despite the fact that pre form Rikudo Naruto could probably shatter him with a kick, and Gai would flatten him. He is still high/top tier in category.




> Susanoo didn't 'tank' anything unless you want to define 'tank' as 'completely obliterated'.  This is worse than when turrin said the hachibi 'tanked' it's own bijuudama at point blank.


Susano's conditon saved Itachi from being vaporized, Susano took most of that damage and his reusable therefore I consider it being tanked, unlike an example lets say Manda v C0 where Manda is not able to fight ever again after the blow despite allowing Sauce to survive. 



> And again, susanoo had to have been at least a V4 considering it protecting itachi from an attack like kirin would make it a massive outlier compared to any other susanoo durability feat.


What other non concentrated(like Tsuande's punch) attacks have breached V2/V3 Susano to suggest this?



> Are you saying that yaata blocks super juubidamas and naruto's most powerful Rasenshurikens?  Also, the manga and databook definition of yaata contradict each other, one says it reflects any attack, the other says it changes its nature in response to the attack making it inneffective.  If you are going by the databook definition, that doesn't even mean it's immune to the normal 5 elements, all it describes is the mechanics of the shield and how it works to defend against attacks.



I'm quite sure Yata has a limit, but once again it hasn;t been touched upon. I see Kishi giving Itachi the weapons to moderately compensate for him not attaining PS but still being strong. While PS allows for more direct offense (mountain level swings), defense (Bjuudama+ range), and utility (being big enough to cloud over almost any construct) it is standard Susano equipment (sword, armor, shield) where as Itachi's weapons are specifically special to the rest, and hax as hell. I see Yata's range being just under 1 bjuudama. Attacks like Obito's huge Katon, Mei's water dragon, Sarutobi's lightning jutsu, are fodder to it IMO.

Also the databook does not contradict it. The yata is a mirror shield. It reflects all attacks (hyperbole) because that is what shields do, Kishi ws just explaining in further detail that the attacks are negated in such a way that things like Mei's Fuuton, and non direct brunt attacks would still fail.


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## ueharakk (Apr 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Madara's will has to encompass his knowledge/character. That is why he called it a clone, and had it guide Obito (while secretly spying on him as well). Is the current Orochimaru any different, even though he was grown from Anko/sasuke, and then retained a zetsu body?


Madara alludes it to being a clone of himself because it's his will, it doesn't mean it's a literal clone of himself or has all the aspects of himself.  Orochimaru's ability to create more bodies of himself that share his intel =/= it applies to BZ.



Dr. White said:


> -Madara did know what Susano was, it was mostly an art error having Black Zetsu ask what it was, as it makes no sense for him to have exclusive knowledge on the Susano weapons that (the third being the magatama) few but Itachi, and Oro knew about.
> -He is using a blanket statment, that's how all jutsu/people are hyped in general. The sannin title has hype, why? because it denotes kage level and to most people that is amazing, but as you said the sannin aren't comparable to the top tiers, does this completely shit on their title? No because they are strong relative to most people hence how tiers are made. So yeah Ama from point blank to those without high/top tiers moves/reflexes to deal with it can't avoid it.


- Your first point is untennable unless you use circular logic which is to say that because Black zetsu must have all the knowledge madara has, then it's impossible no matter what he says in the manga that he doesn't know everything madara knows, and thus since that's true, then it follows that BZ had madara's knowledge.
- i accept the second point.





Dr. White said:


> Yes and Susano was still very relevant up unto Gated Gai's rampage and Madara's fusion with the fruit. Susano is one of the strongest techs in the verse and to most it is godlike, so I don't see how you refuted my statement.


what do you mean 'susanoo' and 'was still very relevant'.  Susanoo encompasses a gigantic range of power, from small ribcage to Madara's PS.  
It doesn't matter if 'to most' susanoo is 'very powerful' since the vast majority of the NV consists of people below kage level, compare it to the sannin else statement relative to people below them don't say much.




Dr. White said:


> It can be taken both ways but it's hype is undeniable. After hearing ultimate counter to Kusanagi(one of the best swords in the manga) that seals anything and genjutusu's it plus a shield to turn back any attack? I'm going with hyperbole hype here. Just like Jiraiya saying his Toad palace was inescapable, on a general level yeah it is; once again blanket statement.


Whenever a no-limits hype is used, context is the most important thing to take into account.  other than the hype being in context of vs hebi sasuke is that The only thing 'undeniable' about itacih's susanoo hype other than the hype being in context of vs hebi sasuke is that it's hyperbole not to be taken even remotely in the literal sense just like any other no limits hype.



Dr. White said:


> Susano has been relevent all the way up unto this war arc, hell totsuka was the final blow to Edo Pain, after susano allowed Itachi to save Bee and Naruto, and PS is an extension of susano and it's defenses: just like totsuka and Yata.


That's doesn't mean anything.  Basic rasengans are still relevant and will probably continue to be relevant till the end of the manga.  We aren't talking about PS, giant, legged susanoo etc, we are talking about ITachi's V4 susanoo, so bringing up stuff that completely eclipse itachi's powers doesn't mean anything.



Dr. White said:


> Also let me ask you since you still grant Raikage massive hype. What is his relevance now? Do you still think his hype is relevant to naruto verse battles? of course; despite the fact that pre form Rikudo Naruto could probably shatter him with a kick, and Gai would flatten him. He is still high/top tier in category.


What do you mean 'i still grant raikage's massive hype'?  I'm granting all the hype, i'm granting susanoo it's hype as well, just in the context in which its hype was given.   In regards to being able to survive attacks, no he's not top-tier.  Bijuu-sized susanoo and up, Naruto's BM + avatars, the Juubi, Juubi jins onmyouton etc are the top tiers in being able to withstand attacks.  In straight up pound for pound durability, sure sandaime is top tier.




Dr. White said:


> Susano's conditon saved Itachi from being vaporized, Susano took most of that damage and his reusable therefore I consider it being tanked, unlike an example lets say Manda v C0 where Manda is not able to fight ever again after the blow despite allowing Sauce to survive.


What exactly is your definition of what tanking an attack means?  If we are talking about susanoo's durability, i have no idea why its ability to reform after it's been messed up has anything to do with it's abiltiy to tank an attack.



Dr. White said:


> What other non concentrated(like Tsuande's punch) attacks have breached V2/V3 Susano to suggest this?


- Danzou's fuuton
- 9 bijuu tail slaps
- jinton
- Ei + oonoki's weighted rocks punch
- madara's meteor

Also, while the bolt of kirin covers more area than a V4 susanoo, it doesn't cover much more.


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## Vice (Apr 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Oh vice you never seem to amuse with the Itachi hate. Yes it was, as we see here Madara via the Gedo Mazou inserted his will into white zetsu, and called it a basic clone of himself but weaker.



Yes, his will is inserted into Zetsu and he told Obito to consider it a clone because of it. Nothing more than that.



> No one said it was KCM Naruto's abilities are godllike to most of the universe but its fallible.



What?



> Susano has proven to be one of the greatest techniques in the manga. You can't deny it's power/defense.



No one's denying its power, we're just not exaggerating it.



> Yeah I know but the analogy isn't pointless, it means it is one of the best conceivable defenses a Susano user can achieve, which by Susano standards is pretty damn amazing. Also the weapons are mythical, and named after very important historical mythical artifacts highlighting their strength/rareness.



Okay, there's a difference between claiming something is strong and claiming it's invincible.



> Why are you comparing Raikage with* Susano itself*?



Because we can't compare it to something that has no feats. 



> I am comparing the *specific Yata Shield*, which blocked Orochimaru's prime Summon easily



So I assume you have proof that this is a feat only Yata can accomplish and no other shield can replicate it or that this in any way supports your argument that it is literally invincible?



> and was never pierced or broken yet



Because it has no feats.



> Sandaime is also no where near durable as PS btw.



And neither is Yata.



> You should read the context of the post before replying out of hate first. I specificly asked her that because she said in one paragraph that she was willing to completely disregard feats and go off of hype. Sooooooooooooooo stop



Don't care. Until it has feats to back up it's hype you should just refrain from running around calling it invincible.



> -First off the attack was natural lightning so Yata's special effect would have been moot



So instantly there goes its invincibility status then, yes?



> and from a literary standpoint it's doubtful he used it to block Kirin as Kishi introduced them later after Itachi brought out V4.
> -Reading it from a literary standpoint Itachi' used V2 or 3 to survive Kirin, as he brought it right back up to show Sasuke his Susano.



So we're back to square one to which it doesn't have feats to support its hype then, yes?



> -Finally what is your definition of tanked? If hulk gets shot by human torches AOE, and comes out burnt but alive and able to fight is that not tanked?



For the lack of a better example off the top of my head:





> Itachi got back up and grimaced at Sasuke after tanking a small mountain buster. Then went on to have Susan up long enough to best Oro/Yamata no Oroichi, and Sasuke's desperate ploys.(This after already abusing his whole base arsenal, and MS three times)



Susanoo being completely obliterated and Itachi showing signs of damage is the exact opposite definition of tanking.


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## Dr. White (Apr 25, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Madara alludes it to being a clone of himself because it's his will, it doesn't mean it's a literal clone of himself or has all the aspects of himself.  Orochimaru's ability to create more bodies of himself that share his intel =/= it applies to BZ.


I'm not claiming it is a literal clone but as you admitted it is a sentient being with his will. The only thing influencing it's thoughts, personality, knowledge; it's mind in general is Madara. Hence why it knew about the sacred weapons something that if white zetsu knew (they share all discovered info with eachother/Tobi; this topic was kore arbitrary something only an experienced uchiha like Madara would know) he wouldn't have asked his black side for "the story" referring to black zetsu as the superior source of knowledge.

What is will? "expressing facts about ability or capacity." or "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action." The same things that motivate Madara motivate black zetsu to do things. Madara's knowledge via experience, and character comprise his will, therefore Zetsu should share the same, it should just be weaker because the body is a zetsu body and madara was really old and only putting a small percent in. Black Zetsu is very critical, keen, and merciless compared to the other and noticeably in charge representing the duality of Madara and obito. Whichever way you slice this hype from Black Zetsu would no doubt surely impress Madara had he been idly watching this uchiha bout.



> - Your first point is untennable unless you use circular logic which is to say that because Black zetsu must have all the knowledge madara has, then it's impossible no matter what he says in the manga that he doesn't know everything madara knows, and thus since that's true, then it follows that BZ had madara's knowledge.


-we have an ambiguous near chapter ending image of black Zetsu asking what is that? after Itachi activates Susano (he noticed Itachi around when sauce did and asked what to him being alive before activation), with the bubble being placed next to white zetsu but in black zetsu font. Then the next chapter black zetsu's inquiries seem to end but White Zetsu then ask again What is that: but this time kishi uses white zetsu font but places the bubble near black zetsu. Like I said it doesn't make sense for him to know about Susano weapons but not susano, and his knowledge of them is mentioned after.






> what do you mean 'susanoo' and 'was still very relevant'.  Susanoo encompasses a gigantic range of power, from small ribcage to Madara's PS.
> It doesn't matter if 'to most' susanoo is 'very powerful' since the vast majority of the NV consists of people below kage level, compare it to the sannin else statement relative to people below them don't say much.


-Itachi used V2-V4 against Edo Nagato, and Kabuto. 
same with Sauce.
-Madara tanked a sage Odama Rasengan hokage combo with his Ribcage and sent Naruto flying with V2. He didn't even pull out legged Susano for a great portion of the battle and used some lower form Susano. You can't act like Susano is apart of the past so deep. Sasuke even used V3 vs the juubiand v1 in the juubito fight.





> Whenever a no-limits hype is used, context is the most important thing to take into account.  other than the hype being in context of vs hebi sasuke is that The only thing 'undeniable' about itacih's susanoo hype other than the hype being in context of vs hebi sasuke is that it's hyperbole not to be taken even remotely in the literal sense just like any other no limits hype.


If you wanna downplay it sure. The authors first point is to establish the particular is powerful. E.g Gaara's absolute Defense. It is extremely powerful especially w/ Shukaku, but not infallible or absolute. Susano has shown better feats then Gaara's sand so it being special even unto Susano is special. Totsuka was mentioned even before the Yata, and yet its relevancy came back when Edo Nagato was taken out correct? There is no reason to think that because it was mentioned 200+ chapters ago doesn't mean much. 




> That's doesn't mean anything.  Basic rasengans are still relevant and will probably continue to be relevant till the end of the manga.  We aren't talking about PS, giant, legged susanoo etc, we are talking about ITachi's V4 susanoo, so bringing up stuff that completely eclipse itachi's powers doesn't mean anything.


Ok but by your logic Rasengan's were portrayed not even able to kill kabuto in pt. 1, yet it came up hundred+ chapters later when Naruto defeated Deva with it. Itachi has a shield and sword that have hax no other does that is my point, and the combo has considerable hype behind it. A fuin/genjutsu with great range and physical capabilities (see Yamata no orichi), and a shield that can deflect physical attacks (once again see 3 headed strike) and negate 5 chakra nature's. I'm not saying it completely rivals PS, but it considerably lessens the gap between V4 alone and PS.




> What do you mean 'i still grant raikage's massive hype'?  I'm granting all the hype, i'm granting susanoo it's hype as well, just in the context in which its hype was given.   In regards to being able to survive attacks, no he's not top-tier.  Bijuu-sized susanoo and up, Naruto's BM + avatars, the Juubi, Juubi jins onmyouton etc are the top tiers in being able to withstand attacks.  In straight up pound for pound durability, sure sandaime is top tier.


Ok well I think Itachi's weapons allow him to compete on high levels. Can he beat BM Naruto? No, but he won't go no diff'd and people KCM Naruto, Nagato, etc have to fear it. 





> What exactly is your definition of what tanking an attack means?  If we are talking about susanoo's durability, i have no idea why its ability to reform after it's been messed up has anything to do with it's abiltiy to tank an attack.


Because Susano itself doesn't matter so much as:
A. The user survives relatively intact and able to fight
B. The user can once again call upon it to battle.




> - Danzou's fuuton
> - 9 bijuu tail slaps
> - jinton
> - Ei + oonoki's weighted rocks punch
> - madara's meteor


-We have our own interpretations on the first so I'll agree to disagree on that one.
-9 BJuu tail slaps (can I remind you what Kyuubi is hyped to do by himself?) is nothing to scoff at, and the area of damage was both wide and concentrated all over.
-Once again it split Susano not obliterated it, because it is a very concentrated attack at a small point(fist to size of susano). I'd also consider this attack high tier.
-Madara's metoer of course lol. It would obliterate Yata, or any single defense.



> Also, while the bolt of kirin covers more area than a V4 susanoo, it doesn't cover much more.


Nah brah . that right there is the apex of the blast, Itachi was blasted through the many stone/tree layers that made up that mountain, meaning he should be toward the bottom of the linked blast


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## Soul (Apr 25, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> prime hanzo
> prime hiruzen
> possibly Killer Bee



No prime in the BD, as we don't have feats for them.
And Killer Bee can't do it. It's 3 on 1.


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## Bonly (Apr 25, 2014)

Soul said:


> No prime in the BD, as we don't have feats for them.
> *And Killer Bee can't do it. It's 3 on 1.*



Well B could have a shot against them if he went into his full Bijuu Mode. He was able to shoot off four Bijuudama at once and Orochi already mentioned that a Bijuudama from a V2 4tailed Naruto would kill him and we know Jiraiya doesn't have the durability/regen of Orochi either. So Killer B could have a shot at beating them even if it's 1V3, whether one think it happens more times then not is another thing.


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## ueharakk (Apr 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I'm not claiming it is a literal clone but as you admitted it is a sentient being with his will. The only thing influencing it's thoughts, personality, knowledge; it's mind in general is Madara. Hence why it knew about the sacred weapons something that if white zetsu knew (they share all discovered info with eachother/Tobi; this topic was kore arbitrary something only an experienced uchiha like Madara would know) he wouldn't have asked his black side for "the story" referring to black zetsu as the superior source of knowledge.


Will =/= same mind.  Will =/= same thoughts, personality, knowledge.  All will means is they want the same thing.  Black zetsu could have just been more intelligent, analytical and receptive to information intake than white zetsu.



Dr. White said:


> What is will? "expressing facts about ability or capacity." or "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action." The same things that motivate Madara motivate black zetsu to do things. Madara's knowledge via experience, and character comprise his will, therefore Zetsu should share the same, it should just be weaker because the body is a zetsu body and madara was really old and only putting a small percent in. Black Zetsu is very critical, keen, and merciless compared to the other and noticeably in charge representing the duality of Madara and obito. Whichever way you slice this hype from Black Zetsu would no doubt surely impress Madara had he been idly watching this uchiha bout.


No, madara's knowledge and experience may have motivated him to have the desires to do things he does now, but that doesn't mean black zetsu is motivated by the same thing, all that inheriting that will implies is they desire the same thing.  

also if you are going to quote, you have to cite a source as I've looked on dictionary.com and i don't see those quotes as definition of will.



Dr. White said:


> -we have an ambiguous near chapter ending image of black Zetsu asking what is that? after Itachi activates Susano (he noticed Itachi around when sauce did and asked what to him being alive before activation), with the bubble being placed next to white zetsu but in black zetsu font. Then the next chapter black zetsu's inquiries seem to end but White Zetsu then ask again What is that: but this time kishi uses white zetsu font but places the bubble near black zetsu. Like I said it doesn't make sense for him to know about Susano weapons but not susano, and his knowledge of them is mentioned after.


Totsuka and yaata aren't susanoo weapons, they can be used as weapons by susanoo, but orochimaru made it clear that they are weapons that can be found and aren't literally part of susanoo itself, thus is how BZ knows about the weapons and not susanoo.



Dr. White said:


> -Itachi used V2-V4 against Edo Nagato, and Kabuto.
> same with Sauce.
> -Madara tanked a sage Odama Rasengan hokage combo with his Ribcage and sent Naruto flying with V2. He didn't even pull out legged Susano for a great portion of the battle and used some lower form Susano. *You can't act like Susano is apart of the past so deep*. Sasuke even used V3 vs the juubiand v1 in the juubito fight.


when did i say the bolded.  NAruto still throws around normal-sized rasengans and they still do damage to obito, pain's black chakra rods still pin high/top tiers, it doesn't matter if techniques are used in high level battles, what matters is what those techniques accomplish and what they are used against since high level battles don't always consist of throwing around nukes and high level techniques.  

That however has nothing to do with validating no limits hype or bolstering hype beyond the context.




Dr. White said:


> If you wanna downplay it sure. The authors first point is to establish the particular is powerful. E.g Gaara's absolute Defense. It is extremely powerful especially w/ Shukaku, but not infallible or absolute. Susano has shown better feats then Gaara's sand so it being special even unto Susano is special. Totsuka was mentioned even before the Yata, and yet its relevancy came back when Edo Nagato was taken out correct? There is no reason to think that because it was mentioned 200+ chapters ago doesn't mean much.


How am i downplaying?  Unless you believe the hype as literal, saying that it's not literal isn't downplaying.  The contextual hype isn't downplaying either as they don't put a limit on susanoo, just what we can establish about it via the hype.

Susanoo has better feats and hype than gaara's ultimate defense sand, so i don't know what you are trying to say.  Gaara's sand and totsuka simply being used later is completely irrelevant to the point which is that when you have no-limits hype at a later time in the manga, that hype is going to be most likely greater than no-limits hype at an earlier time due to power inflation and the fact that later villains are usually more powerful.  For example, raikiri is called a blade that can cut through anything back in part 1.  Would raikiri get that same no limits hype now?  No, but it's still being used.  




Dr. White said:


> Ok but by your logic Rasengan's were portrayed not even able to kill kabuto in pt. 1, yet it came up hundred+ chapters later when Naruto defeated Deva with it. Itachi has a shield and sword that have hax no other does that is my point, and the combo has considerable hype behind it. A fuin/genjutsu with great range and physical capabilities (see Yamata no orichi), and a shield that can deflect physical attacks (once again see 3 headed strike) and negate 5 chakra nature's. I'm not saying it completely rivals PS, but it considerably lessens the gap between V4 alone and PS.


Rasengans even of the same size vary in power.  Kabuto in pt. 1 took a rasengan from kid naruto, also had super regen, and it still defeated him.  The naruto that hit deva with the rasengan is just a lot stronger than the one that hit kabuto.  

The shield doesn't negate 5 chakra natures, it has the mechanics of changing its nature in order to make attacks inneffective.  Does it mean that it can do that to every elemental attack?  No, it just means that's how the shield works.  Tell me why Sasuke's V4 susanoo wouldn't have done any better than Itachi's against Orochimaru.




Dr. White said:


> Ok well I think Itachi's weapons allow him to compete on high levels. Can he beat BM Naruto? No, but he won't go no diff'd and people KCM Naruto, Nagato, etc have to fear it.


Depending on what you mean by high level.  If you mean KCM NAruto and Nagato?  No, they really don't and that's because both have powers and abilities that make the special hax of his armor irrelevant.  It all depends on how his powers stack up to their powers.  




Dr. White said:


> Because Susano itself doesn't matter so much as:
> A. The user survives relatively intact and able to fight
> B. The user can once again call upon it to battle.


Then it's not 'susanoo tanking an attack', that's 'the user tanking the attack after it goes through susanoo.'  Can you not see how what you've just said is less informative in assessing the durability of the construct itself versus evaluating how much damage the construct itself takes the attack?



Dr. White said:


> -We have our own interpretations on the first so I'll agree to disagree on that one.
> -9 BJuu tail slaps (can I remind you what Kyuubi is hyped to do by himself?) is nothing to scoff at, and the area of damage was both wide and concentrated all over.
> -Once again it split Susano not obliterated it, because it is a very concentrated attack at a small point(fist to size of susano). I'd also consider this attack high tier.
> -Madara's metoer of course lol. It would obliterate Yata, or any single defense.


- Sorry but i won't agree to disagree on danzou's.  I think all the evidence points to danzou's fuuton blowing that hole in susanoo's back through it's power enhanced by baku's suction.  Danzou's thought about the gap came after the hole was blown open, it doesn't make sense for him to fire at the gap, blow the hole open, and then think about the existence of the gap.  In addition to that if susanoo really did have a gap that allows it to be ripped open, that's a major weakness that the manga would have given more attention to explaining.  Next, there is no gap in the skin and bone layer of susanoo, yet the fuuton fully exposes sasuke thus it had to have legitimately gone through those two on its own merit.  Finally, the 'gap' danzou is refering to is clearly the gigantic hole he just created.
- sure it's nothing to scoff at, but it's not on the same level as kirin.  You can tell this by the explosion it generated, kurama needing 6 tails to block a SM COR, the juubi's tail slap not instantly poping a SM clone.  And then there's the fact that it's a senpou powered V3 susanoo that has legs, and madara still got amputated by the force that got through.  
- the only reason you consider that attack is high tier is via circular logic that has susanoo being extremely durable.  Sure it's a more concentrated attack than Kirin, but it's way less powerful and it's against a V3 from madara.
- Madara's meteors aren't even that powerful, a bijuudama contains far more power than even both of them.  That's why dodai, gaara, oonoki and even a fodder were able to survive it despite gaara being very low on chakra, so low that he was completely helpless against madara's mokuton.  The uchiha compound that kirin obliterated is bigger than the meteor.



Dr. White said:


> Nah brah . that right there is the apex of the blast, Itachi was blasted through the many stone/tree layers that made up that mountain, meaning he should be toward the bottom of the linked blast


*Go one page back and you see how big the lightning bolt is compared the the complex*, and it's small enough to fit between the two giant rectangles on the roof *which would have susanoo take up a significant portion.*


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## Dr. White (Apr 25, 2014)

Vice said:


> Okay, there's a difference between claiming something is strong and claiming it's invincible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So basically you didn't read a damn thing I said? and just blindly attacked me  . I never claimed it was actually invincible, read my fucking argument before you blindly attack me because of your irrational hate for a fictional character. In my argument with Godaime, and Ue: I specifically claim it isn't. Just that when the author sets up something with that hype it means it is strong, and being special and rare to Susano (especially a sword and shield) is something that attest to the hype (not the direct notion that it is invisible).

Yata isn't featless being able to block 3 hydra heads was very impressive.


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## Soul (Apr 25, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Well B could have a shot against them if he went into his full Bijuu Mode. He was able to shoot off four Bijuudama at once and Orochi already mentioned that a Bijuudama from a V2 4tailed Naruto would kill him and we know Jiraiya doesn't have the durability/regen of Orochi either. So Killer B could have a shot at beating them even if it's 1V3, whether one think it happens more times then not is another thing.



What about Yomi Numa?
Orochimaru's Sanjuu Rashoumon + the 3 summons.

Remember that Sage Mode Jiraiya with Frog Song available alone can end it.


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## Dr. White (Apr 25, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Will =/= same mind.  Will =/= same thoughts, personality, knowledge.  All will means is they want the same thing.  Black zetsu could have just been more intelligent, analytical and receptive to information intake than white zetsu.


Whatever man, it's Madara's clone/will via canon you can deny what you want. Also we know Zetsu as a whole was used for spying, and black zetsu better at combat.




> No, madara's knowledge and experience may have motivated him to have the desires to do things he does now, but that doesn't mean black zetsu is motivated by the same thing, all that inheriting that will implies is they desire the same thing.


What? Black Zetsu was made by old madara to keep an eye on Obito, and keep a sliver of himself left in the world through this sentient being. Hence why now it still acts in Madara's favor because it is his willlllllllllll



> also if you are going to quote, you have to cite a source as I've looked on dictionary.com and i don't see those quotes as definition of will.


Google




> Totsuka and yaata aren't susanoo weapons, they can be used as weapons by susanoo, but orochimaru made it clear that they are weapons that can be found and aren't literally part of susanoo itself, thus is how BZ knows about the weapons and not susanoo.


Yes they are.... you can't just give your Susano weapons...It's a manifestation of your chakra. Itachi most likely unlocked via knowledge, or some seal. the weapons as Hiruzen's flqshback may have alluded to. The weapons themselves are ethereal, Oro may have heard the legend but not have known how to acquire them. It is also possible he did know how to get them but was pissed Itachi got to them before Oro could get Sasuke's eyes qandd accomplish his dream of awakening the sharingan.



> when did i say the bolded.  NAruto still throws around normal-sized rasengans and they still do damage to obito, pain's black chakra rods still pin high/top tiers, it doesn't matter if techniques are used in high level battles, what matters is what those techniques accomplish and what they are used against since high level battles don't always consist of throwing around nukes and high level techniques.
> 
> That however has nothing to do with validating no limits hype or bolstering hype beyond the context.


I have not argued it is literally invincible I have explicitly claimed the opposite I am arguing based off of hype, and feats surrounding Susano where Yata should be capable of.





> Rasengans even of the same size vary in power.  Kabuto in pt. 1 took a rasengan from kid naruto, also had super regen, and it still defeated him.  The naruto that hit deva with the rasengan is just a lot stronger than the one that hit kabuto.


I know this I was using the logic you used in regards to Susano being powerful in the Hebi Sauce timeline.



> The shield doesn't negate 5 chakra natures, it has the mechanics of changing its nature in order to make attacks inneffective.  Does it mean that it can do that to every elemental attack?  No, it just means that's how the shield works.  Tell me why Sasuke's V4 susanoo wouldn't have done any better than Itachi's against Orochimaru.


Sasuke has a sword too, he might not be as dexterous and efficient as Itachi was but he'll still win, because Susano >>>> Yamata, no matter how you slice it. I'm just saying they have extreme force behind each head.




Not arguing the final points, are views are to different on them, such as you saying that the meteor is weaker than a standard bjuudama.


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## Rocky (Apr 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Because Susano >>>> Yamata, no matter how you slice it.



Susano'o alone, without the Totsuka?

I disagree. Normal Mangekyō Susano'o are indeed more powerful than Ororchimaru's Jutsu, but Susano'o is highly taxing...and outright _painful_ to use. Without the sealing sword, Susano'o most likely isn't downing the Hydra before the user collapses.

Eternal Mangekyō Susano'o pack the firepower to outright obliterate Orochimaru regardless, though (and EMS lessens the strain).


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## Krippy (Apr 25, 2014)

This thread again?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 25, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Being a lot faster then Base Jiraiya and having a quicker jutsu that doesn't require seals (Amaterasu) on top of spammable Karasu or Shadow clones will be ample to stop Jiraiya from Yomi Numa, irregardless of the other two.



_Amaterasu_ is not quicker than _Yomi Numa_ due to having a charge that is non-existent with the swamp, one that is longer than it takes for Jiraiya to clap his hands together. Itachi can't stop Jiraiya from using _Yomi Numa_ with anything short of an outright blitz, and he didn't even blitz Kurenai when she was like two feet away from him.

Mere _Kage Bunshin_ variants are doing jack all to the Sannin collectively other than leaving Itachi's Chakra divided while they're alive, and Itachi hasn't ever been shown using multiples of them (_Tajū Kage Bunshin_ was forbidden by the time Itachi came around, thus it's probable that he simply _can't_), so I don't know where this idea that he suddenly turns into Naruto and starts spamming them is coming from. He will never achieve the numbers advantage, not that I see why it matters because _Yomi Numa_ is ideal for handling numbers either way and the clones can't do anything better than or even as good as Itachi can, and this isn't accounting for the Sannin apparently boasting a legendary level of synergy that goes thrice beyond the mere additive effect of them all being together.

I think Itachi better go ahead and seal himself inside the Totsuka's bottle for his own well being, Edo or not, but that's just me.



> Nagato flattens them low difficulty, he already murdered weakened KCM Naruto and B. In that weakened state KCM Naruto still said he was much stronger then his Pain Arc SM counterpart who was already stronger then Jiraiya. B by himself is comfortably above Tsunade.



When did he say he was much stronger than his Sage Mode counterpart even in his weakened state again? Is there anything within his diction that would suggest he wouldn't have been referring to himself at peak performance? A weakened, bumbling idiot KCM Naruto that isn't even using clones and goes forgetting all of the Rinnegan's abilities is no more dangerous than his Sage Mode counterpart, and neither is a primarily base Bee.

Funny that you still managed to leave out Orochimaru with that comment either way.


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## BroKage (Apr 25, 2014)

Probably:
Gudodama/BSM/BM/KCM Naruto
Rinnegan/EMS Sasuke
Juubi/SM Rinnegan/Edo/EMS Madara
Juubi Obito
8 Gates Gai
Edo/SM/regular Hashirama
BM Minato
Nagato
BM Killer Bee

Maybe:
Edo Itachi
SM Kabuto
Muu
Onoki
MS Sasuke
Sasori (purely because of Iron Sand World Order)
Deidara (purely because of C4)

Characters like MS Obito. FTG Minato/Tobirama, and 3rd/4th Raikage also have chances, but I'm reluctant to list them because their offense is close-range and Jiraiya has that auto-death barrier.

List is also smaller if Jiraiya starts in SM.


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## Dr. White (Apr 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Susano'o alone, without the Totsuka?
> 
> I disagree. Normal Mangekyō Susano'o are indeed more powerful than Ororchimaru's Jutsu, but Susano'o is highly taxing...and outright _painful_ to use. Without the sealing sword, Susano'o most likely isn't downing the Hydra before the user collapses.
> 
> Eternal Mangekyō Susano'o pack the firepower to outright obliterate Orochimaru regardless, though (and EMS lessens the strain).



Nah brah Susano dismantled that Hydra in like 30 seconds flat. He used his whole base arsenal and MS 3 times before it. Assuming he didn't do that and wasn't terminally ill one should have no such problem doing that vs Oro. Not that genjutsu wouldn't work as well


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## Dr. White (Apr 25, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> _Amaterasu_ is not quicker than _Yomi Numa_ due to having a charge that is non-existent with the swamp, one that is longer than it takes for Jiraiya to clap his hands together. Itachi can't stop Jiraiya from using _Yomi Numa_ with anything short of an outright blitz, and he didn't even blitz Kurenai when she was like two feet away from him.


Yes it is. The charge time you speak of is nigh non existent. Ei could react to it because of his enhanced synapse, and because he is Ei. Most other people who don't have the combined speed/reactions as such can't dodge it. Not to mention if he cast it while said person is distracted.

You second example is not only out of context and wrong, clearly contradicted in recent manga.

First the scene is out of context because we know now he didn't wanna kill leafninj, but Kisame was Tobi's top man and he told Itachi he would watch him. He wasn't gonna just play nice. Second off he actually does blitz kurenai and then is fast enough to get behind her after kicking her

Also if you recall Itachi got within feet of Bee without him noticing twice.



> Mere _Kage Bunshin_ variants are doing jack all to the Sannin collectively other than leaving Itachi's Chakra divided while they're alive, and Itachi hasn't ever been shown using multiples of them (_Tajū Kage Bunshin_ was forbidden by the time Itachi came around, thus it's probable that he simply _can't_), so I don't know where this idea that he suddenly turns into Naruto and starts spamming them is coming from.


He was seen making two vs Naruto before, and they serve as distractions to set up moves. He is fast enough to outweave sharingan speeds, and has topped Hebi Sauce, Kakashi, and SM Kabuto. Karasu clones are a more chakra efficient alternative if he is using them as decoy or set up for crow genjutsu.



> He will never achieve the numbers advantage, not that I see why it matters because _Yomi Numa_ is ideal for handling numbers either way and the clones can't do anything better than or even as good as Itachi can, and this isn't accounting for the Sannin apparently boasting a legendary level of synergy that goes thrice beyond the mere additive effect of them all being together.


Ok, none of them can use their summons you realize this? They either get hypnotized into fighting for Itachi, or burnt via Ama. Tsunade is hardcountered by Tsukuyomi, and Ama as well, and Oro can't resist his genjutsu either. Without summons J-man will be pressed to reach SM. Trouble arises.





> Funny that you still managed to leave out Orochimaru with that comment either way.


wasn't needed because Oro already admitted inferiority based on fights in the past.


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## Ersa (Apr 25, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> _Amaterasu_ is not quicker than _Yomi Numa_ due to having a charge that is non-existent with the swamp, one that is longer than it takes for Jiraiya to clap his hands together. Itachi can't stop Jiraiya from using _Yomi Numa_ with anything short of an outright blitz, and he didn't even blitz Kurenai when she was like two feet away from him.


Yes Amaterasu is faster.

Both jutsu requires chakra to build up but Jiraiya also has to use a few handsigns (two I believe from the DB). Ei can react to Amaterasu yes but his reflexes in his Raiton shroud are comparable to Minato. Base Jiraiya without sensing is not in his league. He doesn't even have good reactions feats or speed hype.

Also this looks like a blitz to me, notice the "!"



> Mere _Kage Bunshin_ variants are doing jack all to the Sannin collectively other than leaving Itachi's Chakra divided while they're alive, and Itachi hasn't ever been shown using multiples of them (_Tajū Kage Bunshin_ was forbidden by the time Itachi came around, thus it's probable that he simply _can't_), so I don't know where this idea that he suddenly turns into Naruto and starts spamming them is coming from. He will never achieve the numbers advantage, not that I see why it matters because _Yomi Numa_ is ideal for handling numbers either way and the clones can't do anything better than or even as good as Itachi can, and this isn't accounting for the Sannin apparently boasting a legendary level of synergy that goes thrice beyond the mere additive effect of them all being together.


I never said he'd spam them but having two or three clones running amock along with his Susanoo is a solid defense.



> I think Itachi better go ahead and seal himself inside the Totsuka's bottle for his own well being, Edo or not, but that's just me.


Well I respect that but I disagree personally.

I just think the gap between Edo Itachi and the Sannin members individually is just too big for teamwork or numbers to matter. 1v1, Tsunade loses horribly to Itachi, non-ET Orochimaru already got stomped by a sick, weaker Itachi, base Jiraiya dies very quickly too. If the difference in power is too great, numbers don't mean anything in my opinion. Kinda like Kimimaro vs. Sound 4 or Madara vs the Gokage.



> When did he say he was much stronger than his Sage Mode counterpart even in his weakened state again? Is there anything within his diction that would suggest he wouldn't have been referring to himself at peak performance? A weakened, bumbling idiot KCM Naruto that isn't even using clones and goes forgetting all of the Rinnegan's abilities is no more dangerous than his Sage Mode counterpart, and neither is a primarily base Bee.


He said right now, that indicates his current state.

He also made the claim knowing his chakra was split. Nagato seemed to agree, should we assume Nagato knows KCM's Naruto peak performance? Very doubtful. And you're heavily underrating KCM Naruto even when weakened.



> Funny that you still managed to leave out Orochimaru with that comment either way.


We're lead to believe base Itachi beat non-ET Orochimaru, Orochimaru admitted clear inferiority to him. Then he got offed again by dying Itachi later. Nagato is stronger then Edo Itachi. Orochimaru might as well be a rubber ball for Nagato to bounce across the landscape.

Without ET, Orochimaru is not very impressive. Especially not if we place him against characters with more favourable portrayal and feats like Edo Itachi and Nagato.


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## Bonly (Apr 25, 2014)

Soul said:


> What about Yomi Numa?



B has Raiton. Yomi Numa is a Doton. Raiton> Doton. 




> Orochimaru's Sanjuu Rashoumon + the 3 summons.



Orochi's 3 Rashoumons got completely destroyed by a small Bijuudama from V2 4tailed Naruto. What exactly are they suppose to do against B's Bijuudama's which are bigger then the gates themselves likely? 

What are a few snakes gonna do against B in his Bijuu Mode?



> Remember that Sage Mode Jiraiya with Frog Song available alone can end it.



Remember that Tenten can kill Hashirama by cutting off his head. Just because Jiraiya can do something doesn't mean he's actually going to get a shot to do such.


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## Rocky (Apr 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Nah brah Susano dismantled that Hydra in like 30 seconds flat.



It chopped off the heads, but Orochimaru has high regeneration capabilities. That's why he wasn't worried about the sword until its sealing ability was revealed.   



> He used his whole base arsenal and MS 3 times before it. Assuming he didn't do that and wasn't terminally ill one should have no such problem doing that vs Oro.



Yes, and he died after that fight. I'm not sure what Itachi's max is, but it porbably isn't more than Sasuke's, which capped at around 9-10 minutes with Stage 3.



> Not that genjutsu wouldn't work as well



On the hydra..?


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## Gunstarvillain (Apr 26, 2014)

Obito
Naruto
Bee with sahada
Nagato
Dragon sage
ThirRaikage
Madara
I wanna say a smart danzo would most likely not fight them alone but I bed he would seal tsunade so there's no healing and is capaple of high difficult match but a win none the less


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 26, 2014)

Gunstarvillain said:


> ThirRaikage



How? Even if he durable, the Sannin could figure out methods of forcing him into stabbing himself, or even just suffocating him if that fails. There's not a chance of him ever soloing the Sannin. 



> I wanna say a smart danzo would most likely not fight them alone but I bed he would seal tsunade so there's no healing and is capaple of high difficult match but a win none the less



Danzou gets utterly stomped against all three, he isn't giving a high difficulty match. His ninjutsu are ultimately ineffective against them, and his only hope of winning - spamming Izanagi, probably isn't even enough to take down _one_ of the Sannin. He dies a horrible, _horrible_ death.​​


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Yes it is. The charge time you speak of is nigh non existent.



No it isn't.

Itachi's activates the Mangekyō, his eye starts oozing blood, a warning is called, a sword is thrown a considerable distance in response to said warning, said sword is deflected in response to it nearly reaching its destination, blood continues oozing down Itachi's cheek, and _then_ finally _Amaterasu_ appears. It always takes that long because the eye oozing and bloody tear effect always occur before the technique's actual manifestation. So "non-existant" my dang foot. That's a bold faced lie and you know it.



> Ei could react to it because of his enhanced synapse, and because he is Ei.



What Ay reacted to was _Amaterasu already manifesting_, which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.



> First the scene is out of context because we know now he didn't wanna kill leafninj,



Irrelevant.

A kick to the face from Itachi would not kill Kurenai, only knock her out (if that), something he had no problem doing to leaf ninja considering the far worse condition he put Kakashi, who as top Jōnin was worth more to the village, in. Just-looking-up-from-evasive-ducking-maneuver-Kurenai reacted to his kick and guarded herself just fine, and it was only following her knock-back and subsequent splash that would have broken line-of-sight that Itachi's exploding clone appeared behind her before she noticed.



> but Kisame was Tobi's top man and he told Itachi he would watch him. He wasn't gonna just play nice.



I could just be having a moment here but I don't see where that fits into anything.



> Also if you recall Itachi got within feet of Bee without him noticing twice.



Both of which were _stealth_ feats, not speed feats.



> He was seen making two vs Naruto before



All I remember is him making two additional Itachi's _within his Utakata Genjutsu_.

But if you're referring to another encounter correct me.



> Ok, none of them can use their summons you realize this?



They can use their summons.

Itachi first has to force eye-contact in order to hypnotize them which is easier said than done when they're thousands of times his size (Sasuke had the benefit of being the summoner when he hypnotized Manda, logically making that task a whole lot easier because he could probably summon Manda looking right at him) and the hypnosis can simply be released by any of the summoners or a tiny Katsuyu attached to them somewhere. Genjutsu even working on a hive-minded conglomerate of slugs (which have pitiful eyesight, mind you; they can only see light and dark) that apparently operate across some sort of telepathic Chakra cloud even connected to Tsunade seems a bit far-fetched in my opinion anyway.

The Slug and Snake summons can survive _Amaterasu_ by taking advantage of their molting capabilities.



> Tsunade is hardcountered by Tsukuyomi, and Oro can't resist his genjutsu either.



I disagree. They all know to avoid eye contact, meaning Itachi'd have to force them to look him in the eyes. Tsunade's vastly superior strength would keep Itachi from _forcing_ eye contact onto her and Orochimaru can simply let his snakes track Itachi with their tongues (Katsuyu clones should be able to do similar for Tsunade, actually) while Jiraiya has _Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin_ to sense Itachi's activities without eye contact.

And I honestly don't believe Sage Mode is a necessity.



> wasn't needed because Oro already admitted inferiority based on fights in the past.



Orochimaru never fought Nagato.



Ersatz said:


> Both jutsu requires chakra to build up but Jiraiya also has to use a few handsigns (two I believe from the DB). Ei can react to Amaterasu yes but his reflexes in his Raiton shroud are comparable to Minato. Base Jiraiya without sensing is not in his league. He doesn't even have good reactions feats or speed hype.



Jiraiya claps his hands and he's done- the charge is completed as hastily as he forms the seal; Itachi first has to actually activate the Mangekyō and then charge Ammy, a process which provides ample enough time for Jiraiya to perform a hand-seal.



> Also this looks like a blitz to me, notice the "!"



Line of sight was broken when she was thrown into the air and landed with a splash, and that is a clone because it kind of explodes later.



> I never said he'd spam them but having two or three clones running amock along with his Susanoo is a solid defense.



The clones get killed by summons being dropped on top of them. The original Itachi can block with _Susano'o_ but he's still susceptible to _Doton: Yomi Numa_.



> Well I respect that but I disagree personally.
> 
> I just think the gap between Edo Itachi and the Sannin members individually is just too big for teamwork or numbers to matter. 1v1, Tsunade loses horribly to Itachi, non-ET Orochimaru already got stomped by a sick, weaker Itachi, base Jiraiya dies very quickly too. If the difference in power is too great, numbers don't mean anything in my opinion. Kinda like Kimimaro vs. Sound 4 or Madara vs the Gokage.



I don't know what you're trying to convince me of by speaking in one-on-one terms (and ones which I disagree with, at that) anyway because this is a team battle, not a matter of Itachi running a gauntlet through the Sannin. No, he's fighting all of them simultaneously, a scenario which apparently results in such a powerful synergy that each of their skills are multiplied thrice fold. What does he do to mitigate their numbers advantage that can even be multiplied at any point in time? What does he have to break up the timing and continuousness of their synchronized actions that became the stuff of legends? It isn't _at all_ like Kimimaro vs. the relative novices that are the Sound 4 or Madara vs. the Five Kage who were coming together as a unit for the first time in ninja history, and the disparity between the parties isn't nearly as large to begin with, which is exactly why I don't believe Itachi stands a snowball's chance in hell on a hot day at soloing this mess.



> He said right now, that indicates his current state.



He said "ya know", not "right now".



> He also made the claim knowing his chakra was split. Nagato seemed to agree, should we assume Nagato knows KCM's Naruto peak performance? Very doubtful. And you're heavily underrating KCM Naruto even when weakened.



Naruto's concurrent power would encompass his ability to spread such high performing clones around the battlefields, which is what he was doing at the time. Those considered together are his peak performance, and just because they're not all in one place contributing to one fight out of many happening simultaneously doesn't mean the Naruto in said fight can't be referring to them, because they're all still the result of his present abilities.

I'm not sure _where_ you see Nagato apparently agreeing, and even if he did we only need to assume that Nagato either acknowledged that comparisons to past selves weren't exactly the most pertinent thing at the time and/or that he trusts Naruto's word about his own abilities. But then Naruto went stupid afterwards, so who knows what he'd have thought were he not controlled at that point.



> We're lead to believe base Itachi beat non-ET Orochimaru, Orochimaru admitted clear inferiority to him. Then he got offed again by dying Itachi later. Nagato is stronger then Edo Itachi. Orochimaru might as well be a rubber ball for Nagato to bounce across the landscape.



We are lead to believe no such thing, as we aren't shown the events leading up to or following that scene where Orochimaru got ensnared in Itachi's Genjutsu (something he went on to develop a counter to that was explained to us by Sasuke). You just _want_ to believe base Itachi beat Orochimaru, and apparently that Orochimaru admitted inferiority to his base form without accounting for the Mangekyō. Orochimaru got offed later when both he and Itachi were using their most powerful and most draining techniques from the get-go, and the same would happen were Itachi controlled for his health because nothing else in his arsenal is sufficient to put down Orochimaru.

And most importantly, Orochimaru is not going this alone.



> Without ET, Orochimaru is not very impressive.



Orochimaru without _Edo Tensei_ would still kill most Kages, as would the other two Sannin.


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## Dr. White (Apr 27, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> No it isn't.


Yeah it really is



> Itachi's activates the Mangekyō, his eye starts oozing blood, a warning is called, a sword is thrown a considerable distance in response to said warning, said sword is deflected in response to it nearly reaching its destination, blood continues oozing down Itachi's cheek, and _then_ finally _Amaterasu_ appears.


First of all Itachi was activating his MS. As soon as this happened the MS sent chakra to Naruto in order to summon the crow. Then Itachi's Mangekyou activated the MS from the crow into using Koto on Itachi. Then when Itachi(free to attack how he pleases) verbally says Amaterasu, and kills Cerberus a panel later that is how fast Amaterasu is. You just read that scene completely wrong, but it happens to all of us sometimes.




> It always takes that long because the eye oozing and bloody tear effect always occur before the technique's actual manifestation. So "non-existant" my dang foot. That's a bold faced lie and you know it.


Re-read my last paragraph and tell me the charge time is immense. The time from when Itachi says Amaterasu to the time Cerberus is burnt, is not anything people not of the realm of Ei, Minato, etc ; who have amazing reflexes and speed(or defense), can really deal with.3





> What Ay reacted to was _Amaterasu already manifesting_, which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.


And it took Sasuke a nigh non existent cast time to use it right?





> Irrelevant.
> 
> A kick to the face from Itachi would not kill Kurenai, only knock her out (if that), something he had no problem doing to leaf ninja considering the far worse condition he put Kakashi, who as top Jōnin was worth more to the village, in. Just-looking-up-from-evasive-ducking-maneuver-Kurenai reacted to his kick and guarded herself just fine, and it was only following her knock-back and subsequent splash that would have broken line-of-sight that Itachi's exploding clone appeared behind her before she noticed.


No it isn't Itachi is ridiculously holding back here physically. Look at how he fights team Konoha jonin, mostly stationary, very passive fighter. Choose to use genjutsu, and a couple "scary" jutsu to soundly beat them without death (which I explained was because of Kisame, and Itachi's being kind). Now compare it to his autoreflex mode in Edo form, the first thing he does upon seeing Bee and Naruto is block LOS, and follow with a blitz at CqC. He was much more active in fighting and this was because he literally could not hold back he was all reflexive. Had they fought Itachi fighting like that, they would have gotten raped. 

So basically Itachi (holding back) completely renders kurenai's specialty ineffective, then blitzes her, and is fast enough to weave a clone in their somewhere as he kicked her/countered her genjutsu. which outpaced the kick and got behind her. Even more impressive. Fact is we don't know when Itachi made the clone, but what we know is that his jutsu execution speed is unparalleled and highlighted by kishi, which was further touched upon in Itachi being able to weave a clone right in front of Sasuke's 3 tomoe without him seeing it done.





> I could just be having a moment here but I don't see where that fits into anything.


-Itachi was really good and cared about Konoha and Sauce. He used Akatsuki as a way to keep an eye on Tobi, and keep Konoha/Sauce safe per canon. He was partnered with one of Tobi's most dedicated men, who specifically was partnered with Itachi to keep an eye on him, as he told Itachi point blank. So Itachi (who is suppossed to be trying to get the Jin at any cost) is blowing the mission and avoiding as much fighting as possible.



> Both of which were _stealth_ feats, not speed feats.


What? 
Bee is literally staring at Itachi a panel before Itachi is diagonally < 5 meters from him. . Only the sensors could notice him, and Naruto reacted. 

the second time Itachi just outright shadows Bee who unlike Naruto had just been watching after the initial CqC scuffle.





> All I remember is him making two additional Itachi's _within his Utakata Genjutsu_.


I mean I haven't read that chapter in a while but I highly doubt he couldn't make 2 shadow clones. He is way better than say Kiba at the art, and a jounin fodder from Gaiden arc could make 20. 




> They can use their summons.


Summons keeping their eyes closed is completely in practical. As Madara showed he could simply just look into,he didn't need to be close, and kyubi dwarfs the summons.



> Itachi first has to force eye-contact in order to hypnotize them which is easier said than done when they're thousands of times his size (Sasuke had the benefit of being the summoner when he hypnotized Manda, logically making that task a whole lot easier because he could probably summon Manda looking right at him)


see above , plus you forget about dem crows (one has the great eye of shisui)


> and the hypnosis can simply be released by any of the summoners or a tiny Katsuyu attached to them somewhere. Genjutsu even working on a hive-minded conglomerate of slugs (which have pitiful eyesight, mind you; they can only see light and dark) that apparently operate across some sort of telepathic Chakra cloud even connected to Tsunade seems a bit far-fetched in my opinion anyway.


Yeah but it's gonna be hard when the summon is actively attacking you with acid, or poison, or oil, etc. The other persons eyesight matters little, as long as eye contact exist, they can send their chakra into your body, hell Itachi was mentioned to be able to do it from range which implies no eye contact.




> The Slug and Snake summons can survive Amaterasu by taking advantage of their molting capabilities.


No, because you can't heal something that is perpetually burning you, if the slug splits each new katsuya will still have the fire on it actively burning more of it's body as time passes (and their in pain, as slugs need their moisture to survive) and it ain't healing out of it (see cerberus example) . Snakes can oral rebirth but Itachi can trail is Ama faster than Hebi Sauce ran, and I see that happening.



> I disagree. They all know to avoid eye contact, meaning Itachi'd have to force them to look him in the eyes. Tsunade's vastly superior strength would keep Itachi from _forcing_ eye contact onto her and Orochimaru can simply let his snakes track Itachi with their tongues (Katsuyu clones should be able to do similar for Tsunade, actually) while Jiraiya has _Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin_ to sense Itachi's activities without eye contact.


None of them are like Gai in that they actively trained against a sharingan user for years, Itachi is also >> Kakashi in genjutsu, and can use it differently. Even gai is susceptible to forced eye contact, crows and Ukataka. The sanin/gai actively decrease their capabilties by not looking at Itachi's upper body, and against a genjutsu user who can finger you into submission, use crows, and crow clones to genjutsu you, it doesn't even really matter much. Genjutsu will give them all a tough time.



> And I honestly don't believe Sage Mode is a necessity.


Lol okay. They aren't busting Susano without and even with it Yats + V4 lol tank Chou: odama Rasengan. Summons get, burnt, sliced, or turnt by sharingan as well. Jiraiya's best best is his one genjutsu.





> Orochimaru never fought Nagato.


I was talking about Itachi who he lost to(twice) and admitted inferiority to.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah it really is



Nope.



> You just read that scene completely wrong, but it happens to all of us sometimes.



I know Itachi was activating his MS, but such is inconsequential because he'll have to activate it first before he can use _Amaterasu_. After Itachi's eye started oozing blood Naruto reflected on his encounter with Itachi before his death, Nagato gave the warning and Bee threw that sword from his position to Itachi's only for it to be deflected with a _Shinra Tensei_ and go flying off in yet another direction all before Shisui's eye activated in the panel after the one following that. The blood oozing sequence happens whenever _Amaterasu_ is invoked, so there's more than enough time for Jiraiya to simply clap his hands.

Outside of the blood drip, there is no way to quantify the time _Amatearsu_ takes to activate, but given what just transpired during said drip your comment about it being too fast for anyone without Ay and Minato's reflexes is already false. I mean honestly, how does the time between Itachi's thought and Cerberus's ignition look or otherwise seem any shorter than Jiraiya clapping his hands and the snake being submerged in the very next panel? If anything it actually looks longer. And I'm not about to support the notion that Itachi's tears of blood roll down his face faster than Jiraiya, or anyone, can clap.



> Re-read my last paragraph and tell me the charge time is immense.



I never said the charge time was "immense" to begin with, so you'd be welcome to quit attacking the straw man now.



> And it took Sasuke a nigh non existent cast time to use it right?



No? That _isn't_ right?

Sasuke had to charge it before he could cast it just like Itachi did. The thing is that Ay waited until after it had been cast to start moving, which isn't what I'm saying Jiraiya can do, and therefore it has nothing to do with my argument.



> No it isn't Itachi is ridiculously holding back here physically. Look at how he fights team Konoha jonin, mostly stationary, very passive fighter. Choose to use genjutsu, and a couple "scary" jutsu to soundly beat them without death (which I explained was because of Kisame, and Itachi's being kind).



Itachi deciding to go mostly stationary doesn't mean that he was ridiculously slowing his actual movements whenever he actually made them, or slowing them at all. There is no need for nor implication of that whatsoever; you are simply overextending what not going for the kill encompasses. All that would mean is that he won't do something he knows will kill someone, but that kick would not have killed Kurenai had it landed on her face, and thus there is no basis anywhere for it having been slowed, pulled, or any such thing. The fact that Kurenai could block as opposed to just getting knocked the mess out demonstrates that Itachi's speed is not so impressive that he'd just up and blitz.



> He was partnered with one of Tobi's most dedicated men, who specifically was partnered with Itachi to keep an eye on him, as he told Itachi point blank. So Itachi (who is suppossed to be trying to get the Jin at any cost) is blowing the mission and avoiding as much fighting as possible.



So you're telling me that because someone had an eye on Itachi he was just going to go all the way in blowing the mission? No, he would have been trying to make the encounters as believable as possible. Had he intended to avoid fighting altogether he and Kisame could have left far sooner than they did, but that might raise suspicions, so he didn't mind the fighting or even the beat downs/knockouts until plausible excuses for them to flee came up (Gai having already called for backup upon his arrival and Jiraiya unleashing _Gamaguchi Shibari_), he was simply trying to avoid actual kills (hence Kakashi begging the question post-_Tsukuyomi_)

A pity that avoiding the actual kill doesn't mean he went slow for Kurenai so she could block that kick, and then even go on to congratulate her afterwards for managing to do so (which would be strange if he were moving at such a pace that he already expected her to be able to do it, as making that comment wasn't necessitated for his act with Kisame)



> What?
> Bee is literally staring at Itachi a panel before Itachi is diagonally < 5 meters from him. . Only the sensors could notice him, and Naruto reacted.
> 
> the second time Itachi just outright shadows Bee who unlike Naruto had just been watching after the initial CqC scuffle.



 yourself.

You see that smoke under Nagato's arm? That's not what a Shunshin looks like, buddy. Bee is staring at a Kage Bunshin of Itachi that was made when the fireball broke line of sight. That is the sole reason Bee didn't notice Itachi coming.

The second time Itachi was standing next to Nagato right up until the summonings were brought out, which covered Itachi up as only Nagato is visible after they emerge, giving Itachi the chance to sneak around behind Bee.



> I mean I haven't read that chapter in a while but I highly doubt he couldn't make 2 shadow clones. He is way better than say Kiba at the art, and a jounin fodder from Gaiden arc could make 20.



Kiba only made one, the other one was just Akamaru using transformation, and the Jōnin fodder could make twenty because the multi-version wasn't a forbidden technique kept inside a secret scroll locked up in the Hokage's Mansion by the time he came around.



> Summons keeping their eyes closed is completely in practical.



Sasuke explained why the snakes wouldn't have a problem with it, and Katsuyu probably couldn't make out Itachi with her actual eyes anyway considering that she's a slug. They don't need to have their eyes on him, and if they don't proximity doesn't matter.



> The other persons eyesight matters little, as long as eye contact exist, they can send their chakra into your body, hell Itachi was mentioned to be able to do it from range which implies no eye contact.



Poison? 

Itachi was mentioned to be able to control people from range but that doesn't necessarily imply he can ensnare them from range and without eye contact, just that once he catches somebody they can go off somewhere and still be under his control.



> No, because you can't heal something that is perpetually burning you, if the slug splits each new katsuya will still have the fire on it actively burning more of it's body as time passes (and their in pain, as slugs need their moisture to survive) and it ain't healing out of it (see cerberus example) . Snakes can oral rebirth but Itachi can trail is Ama faster than Hebi Sauce ran, and I see that happening.



Katsuyu can have clones bubble up from of her body without a full-blown _Daibunretsu_, which would raise the flames away from everything underneath, after which the top ones can just fall off while the grand majority of Katsuyu is still fine; she could effectively pull a Jūbi.

The snakes can oral rebirth their new bodies below ground and come back up without flames anywhere they want.



> None of them are like Gai in that they actively trained against a sharingan user for years, Itachi is also >> Kakashi in genjutsu, and can use it differently. Even gai is susceptible to forced eye contact, crows and Ukataka. The sanin/gai actively decrease their capabilties by not looking at Itachi's upper body, and against a genjutsu user who can finger you into submission, use crows, and crow clones to genjutsu you, it doesn't even really matter much. Genjutsu will give them all a tough time.



They don't need to be like Gai, who uses a method that isn't an absolute necessity in order to prevent being played into looking someone in the eyes (like when Shōten Itachi grabbed Kakashi's clone and made it look at his eyes). Jiraiya doesn't need his method because he has an activity detecting barrier a multiplicity of times larger than a boss summon, Tsunade doesn't need his method because she isn't nearly as susceptible to being forced to lock eyes like that due to her titanic physical strength, and Orochimaru doesn't need his method because he's got his own method of avoiding it by using snake tongues (much like Katsuyu has her second set of antennae).

_Utakata_ can only be cast from Itachi's finger, not from his toes, which is all Gai's method would leave visible. So long as they don't directly lock their eyes onto Itachi's finger they should be fine, as I don't believe a mere fleeting glance passed it (or even his eyes) is going to be sufficient to capture.

I didn't think most of the crows had Sharingans to Genjutsu people with, though; only Shisui's?



> Lol okay. They aren't busting Susano without and even with it Yats + V4 lol tank Chou: odama Rasengan. Summons get, burnt, sliced, or turnt by sharingan as well. Jiraiya's best best is his one genjutsu.



Forget busting it.

It offers no downwards protection and the Sannin have multiple attacks that can well up from the ground. _Ranjishigami_/the summons/_Yamata no Orochi_ can restrain it while they have Orochimaru or another snake slip underground and swallow Itachi up when they come back above within _Susano'o_, or they can have Tsunade just rip open a crevice big enough for Itachi to fall into but not the summons, or they can just have Jiraiya sink Itachi with _Doton: Yomi Numa_.

Sage Mode is not necessary for any of those things.



> I was talking about Itachi who he lost to(twice) and admitted inferiority to.



Except _I wasn't_ talking about Itachi when you quoted me.


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## ceralux (Apr 30, 2014)

Does Gai really count?

He would die with them. How does that even classify as a win? No contest in my opinion.


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## eyeknockout (May 1, 2014)

hagoromo's brother
hagoromo's third son who was such a failure that he refused to talk about
hashirama's son who was completely forgotten
hashirama other 2 brothers that are not tobirama
butsuma senju
madara's other 2 brothers that are not izuna


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## Fluon (May 2, 2014)

Gai, he could solo alive pre vote Madara + Sannin + White fang in 7th gate



ceralux said:


> Does Gai really count?
> 
> He would die with them. How does that even classify as a win? No contest in my opinion.



He blitzes them at such speed that they would both die in less than 1 sec in 7th gate


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