# Prime Rayleigh vs Prime Whitebeard



## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 5, 2016)

People always tout that rayleigh was spoken in the same breath as whitebeard and all by garp so they should be close.

What diff do you tink ray give beard man?


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## Orca (Jan 5, 2016)

WB high diff.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jan 5, 2016)

Very high dif also knows as high high diff here


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## Ruse (Jan 5, 2016)

WB high diff


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## TheWiggian (Jan 5, 2016)

Primebeard high (low-mid) diff.


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## rext1 (Jan 5, 2016)

Primebeard very very high diff.


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## barreltheif (Jan 5, 2016)

At least average high diff, but it might be very high diff. I don't view Rayleigh as beneath Garp, but he's definitely not WB's or Roger's equal either.


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## Coruscation (Jan 5, 2016)

It should be no less than high difficulty.


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## Roronoa Zoro (Jan 5, 2016)

Prime WB:
- Roger ~ extreme/can go either way
- Garp ~ high (very high) diff

- Rayleigh ~ high (high) diff




Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> Very high dif also knows as high high diff here



I've just been using what was written in someone's sig


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## Extravlad (Jan 5, 2016)

Prime WB high-low difficulty.

The same difficulty he'd need to beat any Yonko captain and Akainu/Aokiji.

Prime WB mid-high diffing the likes of Mihawk,Akainu,Shanks has always been bullshit.


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## gold ace (Jan 5, 2016)

WB was PK level.

Rayleigh was Admiral level.

WB takes this mid-high diff


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## rext1 (Jan 5, 2016)

If Prime Ray could go Asura then Primebeard loses high diff....


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## Raiden34 (Jan 5, 2016)

Garp's talk doesn't mean they are in the same league, he just said they are two legends and Marine can't handle them at the same time, because it's true, they needed every freaking Marine Admiral in Marineford battle for fighting against Whitebeard, for dealing with Rayleigh, you need to send one Marine Admiral for a prolonged or a wounded fight, which is not a good time for that.

Whitebeard could do much more than stalling a Marine Admiral, if not for Squardo's harakiri style stab.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 5, 2016)

It's hard to tell.

Rayleigh should be way more rusty than WB who kept on sailing the seas. On the other hand, WB had serious health problems and was still island busting level. However, there's no dispute that Old Wb>>Old Rayleigh.

In terms of prime, the gap between WB and Rayleigh was probably slightly smaller when they were in their prime(taking into account that retired Rayleigh hadn't done combat in a long time), but still significant. Primebeard high diff.


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## Kaiser (Jan 5, 2016)

Prime Whitebeard takes this with around high difficulty


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## Monstar6 (Jan 5, 2016)

WB High difficulty.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jan 5, 2016)

Rayleigh was right hand man of PK, while WB was his rival

could go either way extreme diff


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## Dunno (Jan 5, 2016)

Somewhere between high and extreme. Whitebeard and Roger were a not insignificant step above everyone else.


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## giantbiceps (Jan 6, 2016)

Extreme diff either way.


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## Freechoice (Jan 6, 2016)

Garp/Roger/WB high diffs Rayleigh

nothing at all suggests he's at their level

fuck off with that parallel stuff too

because Zoro too is riding on 10 year old hype, clinging on for dear life. Nothing currently suggest that he would put up an extreme diff fight with Luffy

let alone EoS


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## giantbiceps (Jan 6, 2016)

Rayleigh > Garp


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## PinkDarkBoy (Jan 6, 2016)

Prime Rayleigh = 3 Marcos
Prime Whitebeard = 6 Marcos
He wins mid diff.


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## Freechoice (Jan 6, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> Rayleigh > Garp



Mihawk > Shanks 

Zoro > Law

Now we are both typing nonsense


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## trance (Jan 6, 2016)

PinkDarkBoy said:


> Prime Rayleigh = 3 Marcos
> Prime Whitebeard = 6 Marcos
> He wins mid diff.



lel no.


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## Bernkastel (Jan 6, 2016)

PinkDarkBoy said:


> Prime Rayleigh = 3 Marcos
> Prime Whitebeard = 6 Marcos
> He wins mid diff.



So bad 

O.T WB high(mid) diffs.


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## Datassassin (Jan 6, 2016)

Prime WB extreme diffs Prime Garp/Prime Ray.


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## Extravlad (Jan 6, 2016)

People saying this is a toss-up or WB needs extreme diff to beats Rayleigh are fucking delusional.


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## Datassassin (Jan 6, 2016)

WB (and by extension Roger) would win every time, but his victory would require him to go all-out while being as serious as possible + he'd still be very injured. Qualifies as 'extreme difficulty' to moi.


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## Extravlad (Jan 6, 2016)

Yea no, there's a reason why WB was still the WSM despite losing more of his strength than Garp and Rayleigh.


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## Datassassin (Jan 6, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> Yea no, there's a reason why WB was still the WSM despite losing more of his strength than Garp and Rayleigh.


Indeed, there's not just one reason WB remained the WSM, there's a couple:
-Rayleigh wasted away for two decades drinking and not seeing combat
-WB's main/preferred means of combat, his renowned DF, wouldn't degrade with age vs Garp's (running around and punching stuff) and Rayleigh's (equally dependent on his body's state)

Your "WB lost the most strength" idea is just conjecture.


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## Extravlad (Jan 6, 2016)

No matter how you look a it, WB lost more strength than both Rayleigh and Garp, he was always attached to medical sensor machines for a reason, his health state was much worse than Rayleigh's.

Not having fought for 20 years is hardly as bad as WB's condition, Rayleigh didn't have to deeal with heart attacks while in battle.


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## Sherlōck (Jan 6, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> Yea no, there's a reason why WB was still the WSM despite losing more of his strength than Garp and Rayleigh.



That he didn't have a fight to death against anybody Top Tier.


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## Datassassin (Jan 6, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> No matter how you look a it, WB lost more strength than both Rayleigh and Garp, he was always attached to medical sensor machines for a reason, his health state was much worse than Rayleigh's.
> 
> Not having fought for 20 years is hardly as bad as WB's condition, Rayleigh didn't have to deeal with heart attacks while in battle.



I'm not saying WB wasn't a far cry from how he was in his prime, but if you look at the legends in general you'll see that they all should be in similar boats with Garp on-paper having it the best in old age. Had WB not been stabbed (well, had the disease not effected his environmental awareness/haki to get stabbed in the first place), it's entirely a tossup whether or not WB would suffer heart attacks during heavy exchanges. WB may have been incredibly ill but his go-to means of attack was still there in the same form, his style isn't entirely dependent on what condition his body and physical skills are in, and his battle sense had been kept honed by virtue of being an active Yonkou.


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## Vengeance (Jan 6, 2016)

Very high difficulty.


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## Freechoice (Jan 6, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> No matter how you look a it, WB lost more strength than both Rayleigh and Garp, he was always attached to medical sensor machines for a reason, his health state was much worse than Rayleigh's.
> 
> Not having fought for 20 years is hardly as bad as WB's condition, Rayleigh didn't have to deeal with heart attacks while in battle.



completely agree except the WB losing lots more strength than Garp bit

Not possible because they are both very close in strength already

Still, this whole WB extreme diffs is ridiculous


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## barreltheif (Jan 6, 2016)

Datassassin said:


> I'm not saying WB wasn't a far cry from how he was in his prime, but if you look at the legends in general you'll see that they all should be in similar boats with Garp on-paper having it the best in old age. Had WB not been stabbed (well, had the disease not effected his environmental awareness/haki to get stabbed in the first place), it's entirely a tossup whether or not WB would suffer heart attacks during heavy exchanges. WB may have been incredibly ill but his go-to means of attack was still there in the same form, his style isn't entirely dependent on what condition his body and physical skills are in, and his battle sense had been kept honed by virtue of being an active Yonkou.




You could argue that Rayleigh declined nearly as much as WB, but the other oldies certainly didn't. WB's fighting style is nearly as dependent on his physical abilities as Garp's is, and WB's illness means that he declined far more than Garp. He was on an IV. Actually, WB and Rayleigh are the only two oldies who have been stated to have significantly declined, and in their cases it was disease/inactivity/drinking that did it, not age. Age on its own doesn't seem to make people much weaker in the One Piece world. Sengoku, Garp, Fujitora, Kong, etc. have never been stated to have deteriorated.


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## Datassassin (Jan 6, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> You could argue that Rayleigh declined nearly as much as WB, but the other oldies certainly didn't. WB's fighting style is nearly as dependent on his physical abilities as Garp's is, and WB's illness means that he declined far more than Garp. He was on an IV. Actually, WB and Rayleigh are the only two oldies who have been stated to have significantly declined, and in their cases it was disease/inactivity/drinking that did it, not age. Age on its own doesn't seem to make people much weaker in the One Piece world. Sengoku, Garp, Fujitora, Kong, etc. have never been stated to have deteriorated.


WB's utilization of the Gura Gura, something that doesn't have the same bodily demands of throwing mountain-level punches or slashes, should have remained the same in his old age. Physically-tasking things are deeply tied to WB's method of combat, yes, but they are literally all that Garp and Rayleigh have vs WB's magic quake manipulation. I don't see the place Sengoku has here since he's never been held in the same esteem as these people and lacks the feats/portrayal to put him in their company, while Fujitora's age is unknown and again there's the portrayal/feats/esteem thing for him too. Kong is just a question mark without any relevance unless Oda gives more information on him. It was illness that seemed to bring Chinjao beneath the level of Lao G later on in Dressrosa, but when Chinjao seemed fine while fighting Luffy, it can easily be said that the only reason someone who was seemingly once at least Jozu-level (and made Garp put forth genuine effort) wasn't at all gaining the upperhand against a Luffy not using more than G2 = effects of old age.

In old age, I think WB would manage a win over Garp while Rayleigh would be solidly defeated by both, but in everyone's prime the only immutable fact is that WB wins.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 6, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> You could argue that Rayleigh declined nearly as much as WB, but the other oldies certainly didn't. WB's fighting style is nearly as dependent on his physical abilities as Garp's is, and WB's illness means that he declined far more than Garp. He was on an IV. Actually, WB and Rayleigh are the only two oldies who have been stated to have significantly declined, and in their cases it was disease/inactivity/drinking that did it, not age. Age on its own doesn't seem to make people much weaker in the One Piece world. Sengoku, Garp, Fujitora, Kong, etc. have never been stated to have deteriorated.



Sengoku and Fujitora have other sources of power. All of Garp's power comes from his own body and Haki. If he's rusty and hasn't been on top of training, there's no doubt that he's weaker. In fact, he was training to defeat Prime Chinjao years back. Imagine nowadays... I also doubt his stamina is the same compared to prime days. 

But yeah. I do agree that Whitebeard and Rayleigh were far below their prime due to the reasons you mentioned.


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## Finalbeta (Jan 6, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> Prime WB high-low difficulty.
> 
> The same difficulty he'd need to beat any Yonko captain and Akainu/Aokiji.
> 
> Prime WB mid-high diffing the likes of Mihawk,Akainu,Shanks has always been bullshit.



It is not until you prove otherwise

WB takes this high-extreme difficulty


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## Extravlad (Jan 6, 2016)

> It is not until you prove otherwise


I don't need to prove otherwise, the idea of the absolute best the middle generation has to offer not even being able to give high diff to WB/Roger is simply ridiculous and straight out from you guys asses.

Just like Prime Rayleigh being far stronger than anyone from the mid gen, made up bullshit with nothing that support it in the manga.


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## Finalbeta (Jan 6, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> I don't need to prove otherwise, the idea of the absolute best the middle generation has to offer not even being able to give high diff to WB/Roger is simply ridiculous and straight out from you guys asses.
> 
> Just like Prime Rayleigh being far stronger than anyone from the mid gen, made up bullshit with nothing that support it in the manga.



Do you think that don't even use your sword for decades other than waste your body in alcohol and senility is not just such a nerf?

If Akainu would do that he would get far weaker than Marco to be honest

It's not so impossible to believe that Prime Ray is on a whole different level than Old and Prime WB is surely stronger than him


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## barreltheif (Jan 6, 2016)

Datassassin said:


> WB's utilization of the Gura Gura, something that doesn't have the same bodily demands of throwing mountain-level punches or slashes, should have remained the same in his old age. Physically-tasking things are deeply tied to WB's method of combat, yes, but they are literally all that Garp and Rayleigh have vs WB's magic quake manipulation. I don't see the place Sengoku has here since he's never been held in the same esteem as these people and lacks the feats/portrayal to put him in their company, while Fujitora's age is unknown and again there's the portrayal/feats/esteem thing for him too. Kong is just a question mark without any relevance unless Oda gives more information on him. It was illness that seemed to bring Chinjao beneath the level of Lao G later on in Dressrosa, but when Chinjao seemed fine while fighting Luffy, it can easily be said that the only reason someone who was seemingly once at least Jozu-level (and made Garp put forth genuine effort) wasn't at all gaining the upperhand against a Luffy not using more than G2 = effects of old age.
> 
> In old age, I think WB would manage a win over Garp while Rayleigh would be solidly defeated by both, but in everyone's prime the only immutable fact is that WB wins.




WB punches the air. Using the gura obviously requires physical strength. It's not like Law's or Doffy's hax, which are largely independent of physical ability.

Sengoku and Fujitora are weaker than WB and Garp, but that's totally irrelevant. The point is that neither of them have been weakened much by old age as far as we know. Neither has Garp or Kong or really anyone else in the series.

You do remember that Chinjao lost his main weapon and his main fighting style? And on top of that he lost his will and ambition. You don't seriously think that Chinjao was weak mainly because he was just old?





King Itachi said:


> Sengoku and Fujitora have other sources of power. All of Garp's power comes from his own body and Haki. If he's rusty and hasn't been on top of training, there's no doubt that he's weaker. In fact, he was training to defeat Prime Chinjao years back. Imagine nowadays... I also doubt his stamina is the same compared to prime days.
> 
> But yeah. I do agree that Whitebeard and Rayleigh were far below their prime due to the reasons you mentioned.




The point is not how much they've declined. The point is that no one in the whole manga has ever been said to have gotten significantly weaker due to old age on its own. It's always inactivity or disease.


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## Canute87 (Jan 6, 2016)

High difficulty seems about right.


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## Datassassin (Jan 6, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> WB punches the air. Using the gura obviously requires physical strength. It's not like Law's or Doffy's hax


Quake attacks aren't totally reliant on the quality of a strike, how fast your arm is moving, the strength of the muscles in it; BB's MF-breaking quake after having just consumed the DF was perfectly fine even though we know his physicality was to WB's as a slug's is to a tiger's. This is backed up by what we have seen of pre-skip BB's physical abilities against Luffy and Ace. Even if your strike is little more than going through the motions of a punch, the quake produced will still be normal.



barreltheif said:


> Sengoku and Fujitora are weaker than WB and Garp, but that's totally irrelevant. The point is that neither of them have been weakened much by old age as far as we know. Neither has Garp or Kong or really anyone else in the series.


In a universe where negative attention has always been drawn to age, where there's no reason to believe that the characters suffers less drawbacks from the effects of age than real-life people, it really just comes down to a general inference on all elderly people in One Piece. People who are DF-reliant escape as great of a decline. We never saw Sengoku's upper limits and likely never will even see him in an extended fight at all, nor was he in a position where he would be fighting all that much, so it's sensible that comments weren't made on his strength and it's decline. Fujitora could be anything from Kuzan's age to Sengoku's, we have no idea of if he qualifies as elderly in the OPverse or not, but Fujitora is already a special case; he is almost assured to be stronger now than he ever was since he received a DF and an incredibly powerful non-physically-reliant one at that- 95% of Fujitiora's feats are through his DF.



barreltheif said:


> You do remember that Chinjao lost his main weapon and his main fighting style? And on top of that he lost his will and ambition. You don't seriously think that Chinjao was weak mainly because he was just old?


Chinjao still had his 8-Impact Fist, and despite losing his ace/insane piercing power, that doesn't speak to Chinjao's speed and strength otherwise being handled by G2 Luffy.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jan 6, 2016)

PrimeWB wins with high difficulty. Prime Ray is overrated.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 7, 2016)

Elite Uchiha said:


> PrimeWB wins with high difficulty. Prime Ray is overrated.



Yea just like Dragon. At best Dragon csn give high (low) diff to curremt top tiers.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jan 7, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> Yea just like Dragon. At best Dragon csn give high (low) diff to curremt top tiers.



There is a reason Akainu wants to get rid of Luffy. He knows that if he becomes anything like Dragon he will become Prime Roger level. 

Prime Dragon = Prime Luffy = Prime Roger confirmed by Akainu 

And to the sensible people in this thread, what makes you think the Yonkou actually fight a lot? They probably are just like Ray expect they might fight once a year


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## TheWiggian (Jan 7, 2016)

Elite Uchiha said:


> There is a reason Akainu wants to get rid of Luffy. He knows that if he becomes anything like Dragon he will become Prime Roger level.
> 
> Prime Dragon = Prime Luffy = Prime Roger confirmed by Akainu
> 
> And to the sensible people in this thread, what makes you think the Yonkou actually fight a lot? They probably are just like Ray expect they might fight once a year



You mean Akainu wants to get rid of Luffy because of Garp, someone who doesn't gives a shit about ranks (unlike Akainu and Dragon) and as VA is still stronger than him. He doesn't want another Garp to grow up, at least not on the other side of the battlefield. He knows if Luffy becomes anything like Garp he will be = Roger and then Akainu is doomed.

EoS Luffy >= Roger = Garp > Old WB > Akainu >> Dragon

And to the delusional people here, what makes you think that secretaries fight at all? These bitches got to write all the letters.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jan 7, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> You mean Akainu wants to get rid of Luffy because of Garp, someone who doesn't gives a shit about ranks (unlike Akainu and Dragon) and as VA is still stronger than him. He doesn't want another Garp to grow up, at least not on the other side of the battlefield. He knows if Luffy becomes anything like Garp he will be = Roger and then Akainu is doomed.
> 
> EoS Luffy >= Roger = Garp > Old WB > Akainu >> Dragon
> 
> And to the delusional people here, what makes you think that secretaries fight at all? These bitches got to write all the letters.



Lmao, is that why he says "Dragon's son" instead of "Garp's grandson"? Are you even trying anymore 

Dragon = EOS Luffy  confirmed by Akainu.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 8, 2016)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Lmao, is that why he says "Dragon's son" instead of "Garp's grandson"? Are you even trying anymore
> 
> Dragon = EOS Luffy  confirmed by Akainu.



 

Keep deluding yourself with Dragon. Akainu or BB fists him sooner or later.


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## Extravlad (Jan 8, 2016)

Honestly most people have been giving a fuck about Luffy being Garp's grandson rather than him being Dragon's son.
Bigmom's reaction to Luffy's name was "Garp's grandson?" not "Dragon's son!!".
Akainu is different because he obviously cannot hold Luffy being the grandson of a marine hero against him.

Garp's reputation > Dragon's.

Dragon ain't Prime Garp lvl.


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## X18999 (Jan 8, 2016)

I bet that because the Revo's don't bother Pirates much... it's unlikely that she's ever seen Dragon and likely that Garp caused her some problems.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jan 8, 2016)

X18999 said:


> I bet that because the Revo's don't bother Pirates much... it's unlikely that she's ever seen Dragon and likely that Garp caused her some problems.



Common sense, you have it.


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## Gohara (Jan 30, 2016)

Whitebeard wins with around mid difficulty, IMO.  I'm not convinced that the difference in power between Roger and Rayleigh is the same as Post Time Skip Luffy and Post Time Skip Zoro.  Even if I were, I think that the difference in power between Luffy and Zoro will get bigger in the final Arc.  I don't see End Of Series Zoro only being a notch below End Of Series Luffy as he would essentially have to be Pirate King level himself.


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