# SM Jiraiya vs MS Sasuke (FKS)



## Shazam (Aug 2, 2018)

Knowledge: Manga
IC
35 meters
Location : Konoha


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## Shazam (Aug 2, 2018)

@Buuhan 
@WorldsStrongest


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## ThomasTheCat (Aug 2, 2018)

Starting Jiraiya in SM is a tad unfair. Sasuke's only counter to summons is Sharingan Genjutsu, or the off chance that he cuts one of their heads of with some lightning amped sword action. Genjutsu can only catch one at a time though, and it seems improbable that the toads wouldn't break each other out. Susano'o is great and all, but a certain giant Rasengan would wreck it. If worst comes to worst, Frog Song can come out, but I don't think the battle will escalate to that.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Unless the OP straight up fucking lied when he put "FKS" in the title and i stead meant "Killer Bee" fight...

Sasuke wins handily

Youre straight up blind or dumb if you think otherwise 

Naruto is stated up down left and right to be a superior sage and all around better shinobi in general than Jman was. Naruto shits all over Jman in terms of feats while fighting Pain as well.

Guess who Sasuke is stated, upwards of 5 fucking times on seperate occasions, to be dead and i do mean DEAD EVEN with?

If you guessed Naruto, and also further understand that Naruto outright says he cant beat MS sasuke without Kuramas power, you win the prize of having the bare minimum reading comprehension to understand this manga 

Which is sadly, a rare quality among posters around here lately

Legit no argument can be made for Jman here...Not even fucking portrayal which is usually his grand claim to fame.

Feat wise? Jman doesnt have the feats to suggest he can reliably deal with half of sasukes more dangerous arsenal.

Sasuke snipes his ass with susanoo arrows or Amaterasu sooner or later.

Lol at the usual jokers in here saying Jman "mid diffs" of all fucking things btw

Reactions: Like 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Shazam said:


> @Buuhan
> @WorldsStrongest


Because its not abundantly clear you wanted to start shit with this thread now


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Susano'o is great and all, but a certain giant Rasengan would wreck it.


 straight up tanked COR on panel no diff dude

Sasuke chilling in a V2 or V3 is not feeling it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Aug 3, 2018)

Tbh it depends on FKS Sasuke

If it's at the beginning where he can only use amaterasu and ribcage he gets washed, though if its danzo fight Sasuke its a legit scrap imo


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 3, 2018)

Sasuke only loses cuz Jiraiya cheated by starting off in Sage Mode

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> straight up tanked COR on panel no diff dude
> 
> Sasuke chilling in a V2 or V3 is not feeling it






*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 








Very bad comparison. Madara's Susanoo >>>>> Sasuke's Susano.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Buuhan (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> straight up tanked COR on panel no diff dude
> 
> Sasuke chilling in a V2 or V3 is not feeling it


Thats Madaras Susanoo so im not sure why you're using it for Sasuke. Not to mention its not even EMS its MS which is substantially weaker than his later incarnations.

Reactions: Like 2


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## King1 (Aug 3, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Sasuke only loses cuz Jiraiya cheated by starting off in Sage Mode


And how would that help him against sasuke?

Reactions: Like 1


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## King1 (Aug 3, 2018)

MS Sasuke wins this fight, there is nothing in jiraiya's arsenal that sasuke cannot deal with, Aoda will deal with jman's summons, Susano arrows and amatarasu are enough to deal with him, jiraiya doesn't have any speed feat to suggest he can dodge amatarasu or susano arrows.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Very bad comparison. Madara's Susanoo >>>>> Sasuke's Susano.


And you have even worse reading ability than i gave you credit for

And thats saying something


Buuhan said:


> Thats Madaras Susanoo so im not sure why you're using it for Sasuke.


Both of yall and everyone who rated this bullshit "winner" needs to learn how to read


WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke chilling in a V2 or V3 is not feeling it


Never said Sauce was taking it with his own ribcage 

I outright said he needs a fully formed V2 or V3 to replicate the feat

Jesus no wonder you cats think Jman wins...You cant even make it through 2 sentences of text without failing to get the point and disregarding context entirely

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Nothing "optimistic" about what i just said @Serene Grace 

They straight up failed to read 2 lines of text correctly and pushed their own conclusions on me

They were wrong from the jump

All i did was tell em what i said a second time in more concise terms 

Figure thats worth at least an "informative"


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## Zero890 (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And you have even worse reading ability than i gave you credit for
> 
> And thats saying something



Then there is no need to put Madara as an example and also V3 was cut by Danzo's Futon

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Then there is no need to put Madara as an example and also V3 was cut by Danzo's Futon


An amped, high level Fuuton, an element extolled for its penetrating and cutting power, barely got through 1 Susanoo layer in susanoos most vulnerable spot while Susanoo was immobile and unable to defend itself.

Thats still nothing to indicate COR does anything to a fully formed V3 when an amped COR flopped against mads ribcage.

A V3 thats capable of defending itself, blocking the COR with its shield to mitigate even more damage than taking the hit directly, or killing Jman before he can even fucking touch it.

And even DUSTING a Susanoo doesnt necessarily hurt the user...And with Enton and Amaterasu spam at point blank fucking range against a now defenseless Jman with a fizzled out COR attack? Against an unharmed Sasuke? Jman dies. Screaming.

But ive grown to expect this level of shortsighted thinking from Jman fans...Rarely do you ever actually look at the whole picture, Usually just the parts that make Jman look cool even tho he is straight up portrayed as notably inferior to the level Sasuke and Naruto play at by this point.

But ill give you props for at the very least not putting words in my mouth in this post.

Movin up in the world it seems.


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## Shazam (Aug 3, 2018)

Many suggest MS Itachi > MS Sasuke at this point. While Jiraiya has arguably been portrayed as Itachis equal.  So debating using the portrayal point is useless


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Many suggest


Fan opinions arent portrayal


Shazam said:


> So debating using the portrayal point is useless


And they dont invalidate blatant, half a dozen fucking given, ON PANEL statements

This is just typical Jman damage control...And really sad attempts at it tbh

You just legitimately claimed that general consensus (and you dont even have THAT...MANY people also put Itachi definitively above Jman, and many people put Sasuke > or = Itachi by this point) overrules canon that was spoonfed to us several times and never contradicted...

Reactions: Like 5


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## Shazam (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Fan opinions arent portrayal
> 
> And they dont invalidate blatant, half a dozen fucking given, ON PANEL statements
> 
> ...



If you want to speak strictly canon, Jiraiya was outright stated to be of Itachi's caliber. Unless of course you back with the typical "well your interpretation is wrong" deal.  

Point is portrayal alone isn't leading nobody to a conclusion with this fight.


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2018)

Manga: Jman fights Pain (Rinnegan user) and stated to be stronger than itachi (MS) user. 
tards: Sasuke wins handly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> An amped, high level Fuuton, an element extolled for its penetrating and cutting power, barely got through 1 Susanoo layer in susanoos most vulnerable spot while Susanoo was immobile and unable to defend itself.



So what? is still a Futon only powered by another Futon that could not swallow a small Susano ... I hope you're not saying that shit is stronger than a COR powered by Senjutsu ...



WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats still nothing to indicate COR does anything to a fully formed V3 when an amped COR flopped against mads ribcage.



Amped COR? lol that was base Naruto. Wait, let's forget the part where it says that "Sage Mode greatly increases the power of your Ninjutsu"



WorldsStrongest said:


> A V3 thats capable of defending itself, blocking the COR with its shield to mitigate even more damage than taking the hit directly, or killing Jman before he can even fucking touch it.
> 
> But ive grown to expect this level of shortsighted thinking from Jman fans...Rarely do you ever actually look at the whole picture, Usually just the parts that make Jman look cool even tho he is straight up portrayed as notably inferior to the level Sasuke and Naruto play at by this point.



Debate without complaining about the Jman fans, literally it is the only thing you do in every thread that you comment about Jiraiya ... it's boring to always have to see "I expected it from the Jman fans"

Reactions: Like 3


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 3, 2018)

For once I actually agree with WorldsStrongest here, SM Naruto is stated to be superior to SM Jiraiya and MS Sasuke is equal to SM Naruto therefore MS Sasuke is above SM Jiraiya. So thinking Sasuke wins here isn't necessarily being dishonest or biased, it follows how the manga portrayed them.


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## Shazam (Aug 3, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> For once I actually agree with WorldsStrongest here, SM Naruto is stated to be superior to SM Jiraiya and MS Sasuke is equal to SM Naruto therefore MS Sasuke is above SM Jiraiya. So thinking Sasuke wins here isn't necessarily being dishonest or biased, it follows how the manga portrayed them.



Equally valid is Itachi = SM Jman. And Itachi > Sasuke. 

It just depends on which route you support more. 

It's too close to just call it on portrayal


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## The_Conqueror (Aug 3, 2018)

Jiraiyas SM with his arsenal should still be better than Narutos when fighting an enemy.  Especially the co-ordination he has with  the great sages and his own experiences too.

With Smokes bombs Clones and throwable FRS when used correctly cant really be dealt with by many ninjas.  That's the threat Naruto brings.

  In a overall fight with different opponents smart money would be J-man would perform better than Pain ar or FKS arc Naruto


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 3, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Equally valid is Itachi = SM Jman. And Itachi > Sasuke.
> 
> It just depends on which route you support more.
> 
> It's too close to just call it on portrayal


What actual statements are there supporting that MS Itachi is superior to MS Sasuke though? His superiority seems to be based on everyone's personal interpretation of feats. So that argument isn't as valid, as based on the statements in the manga the opposite is actually implied.


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## Shazam (Aug 3, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What actual statements are there supporting that MS Itachi is superior to MS Sasuke though? His superiority seems to be based on everyone's personal interpretation of feats.



Wasn't it stated somewhere that Sasuke only surpassed Itachi once he attained EMS? 

If not, then I would agree that Sasukes portrayed above SM Jiraiya.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 3, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Wasn't it stated somewhere that Sasuke only surpassed Itachi once he attained EMS?
> 
> If not, then I would agree that Sasukes portrayed above SM Jiraiya.


"-> Implanting Itachi’s eyes, the Mangekyo Sharingan, giving an eternal light that was turned on, which also surpassed his older brother’s ninjutsu and doujutsu." This is what DB4 said, so as you can see, it does not say that Sasuke surpassed Itachi with the EMS. It just says his ninjutsu and dojutsu are better.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 3, 2018)

Sasuke wins, obviously.

Unlike Itachi, Sasuke lacks issues with stamina. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke can use Enton. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke could literally hit Jiraiya with lightning if he wanted. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke can recycle any Amaterasu flames that would be already around.

Unlike Itachi, Sasuke will be able to use Susanoo arrows that Jiraiya will not be able dodge.



Buuhan said:


> Thats Madaras Susanoo so im not sure why you're using it for Sasuke. Not to mention its not even EMS its MS which is substantially weaker than his later incarnations.



Wrong. You can still generalise the feats, its the same jutsu and there wasn't anything to differentiate them. The only thing the EMS will provide Sasuke/Madara apart from stronger chakra is superior prediction i.e. tapping into the chakra power (Indra) they already have.

But that's a larger Rasengan than Jiraiya can muster, so Sasuke could tank it with Susanoo.



Shazam said:


> Many suggest MS Itachi > MS Sasuke at this point. While Jiraiya has arguably been portrayed as Itachis equal.  So debating using the portrayal point is useless



Itachi's been portrayed as Jiraiya's superior, all things considered.

MS Sasuke was directly portrayed above Itachi... by Itachi himself who said Sasuke would not be able to beat Itachi *only because *he lacked the Mangekyou Sharingan, nothing else. Later, Itachi proceeds to hold back (Susanoo) when fighting Sasuke. Then you get C saying Sasuke's Amaterasu skill is better with Sasuke being able to obtain Kagutsuchi. 
Of course, there's also the fact Sasuke was able to fight against Bee a little bit before being owned and Itachi ran away immediately.

Just because "many" suggest something doesn't make it true. Especially when their arguments are poor and ignore a lot of things.


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## Shazam (Aug 3, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke wins, obviously.
> 
> Unlike Itachi, Sasuke lacks issues with stamina. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke can use Enton. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke could literally hit Jiraiya with lightning if he wanted. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke can recycle any Amaterasu flames that would be already around.
> 
> ...



Portrayal is a statement. And there has been a statement placing them at least near to one another. 

Then there is the who SM & MS playing counter parts for the whole series and Jman being to Naruto what Itachi essentially was to Sasuke. 

This isn't the thread to debate Itachi vs Jman for the millionth time. Just that no matter what, nobody can say either way definitely that Itachi or Jiraiya is superior and arguing such will just put you in line with all the other 1000 threads debating the exact same thing over the years. It's never settled. Hence while they are arguably equals. 

Portrayal is not the go to argument for this battle.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 3, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Portrayal is a statement. And there has been a statement placing them at least near to one another.
> 
> Then there is the who SM & MS playing counter parts for the whole series and Jman being to Naruto what Itachi essentially was to Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Not when interpreted properly. 

Except Naruto surpassed Minato when he got SM too. If you really want to look at it, then the SM-MS counter parts were Hashirama and Madara (the first MS user)... you know Naruto and Sasuke in a previous life. 

This is a veiled Jiriaya vs Itachi match as a lot of Sasuke's arguments will involve Susanoo and Amaterasu. Just not the final form Susanoo, for the most part. 

Its odd because some will say "no portrayal" when it doesn't suit their favourites, but then are all for it when it does, or if they think it does.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 3, 2018)

I view the two characters as being on the same general level and both of them have options. However, Sasuke’s options (Amaterasu, Susano, Kakatsuchi) are more likely to come out early than Jiraiya’s best options, and Sasuke’s Jutsu are more difficult to counter without direct knowledge which Jiraiya lacks.

Jiraiya has a few Jutsu that are dangerous to Sasuke in the short term (Frog Call and Frog Kata), but Sasuke is likely to use Susano early to take away Frog Kata while being unlikely to use Frog Call at the start out of all of his Jutsu. But Susano, Amaterasu, and Kagatsuchi all possesse serious short term danger to Jiraiya and are likely to be employed. Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi are not conventionally avoidable for Jiraiya with their speed. He can counter them with Dust Clouds (which aren’t horribly unlikely to be used without knowledge) and clones (which he probably doesn’t use without knowledge).

Jiraiya meanwhile has his best options as long term things, like a significant stamina advantage and the Frog Song. Though in a long fight Sasuke might prepare Kirin. 

If Jiraiya had more knowledge I would favor him, but without it he probably loses to Sasuke most of the time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Shazam said:


> If you want to speak strictly canon, Jiraiya was outright stated to be of Itachi's caliber


Now youre backpedaling

"Of Itachis Caliber" =/= Superior to Itachi

Hell, "of the same caliber" doesnt even mean they are necessarily individually comparable or equal, it just means they operate in the same level of general power.

"Same Tier" or "same level" or in this case, "same caliber" are incredibly vague nomenclature.

And again, consensus or fan theories dont disprove the dozen ON PANEL times we have Sasuke portrayed above Jman directly...As his stated equal Naruto was...


Shazam said:


> Unless of course you back with the typical "well your interpretation is wrong"


Your interpretation is wrong

Straight up

You are arguing general consensus in favor of canon evidence 

The notion that Jman is stated to operate on the same plane as Itachi doesnt discredit the notion that Sasuke is portrayed on an equal level, a VERY EQUAL level, to Jmans STATED and SHOWN superior

No matter how you squint at that, it just doesnt correlate


Shazam said:


> Point is portrayal alone isn't leading nobody to a conclusion with this fight


Sasuke blows Jman the fuck out of the water featswise and matchup wise as well

Portrayal is just icing on the cake 


Hussain said:


> Manga: Jman fights Pain (Rinnegan user)


And gets fucking decimated 

While the rinnegan user was nerfed and Jman held a location advantage mind you 

And made irrelevent anyway when Sasuke is stated to be on the same level as the SUPERIOR SAGE who ALSO FOUGHT RINNEGAN and OUTPERFORMED JMAN...As stated directly by the RINNEGAN USER

So...Way to fall on your face again here hussain :s;urp




Hussain said:


> stated to be stronger than itachi (MS)


No he isnt 

And this is contradicted by later events regardless

Add to that, Naruto is OUTRIGHT stated to be superior to Jman, Sasuke is stated to be Narutos equal to the point a fight between them ends in mutual fucking death...

Yet youre ignoring that...And then have teh gall to call other people a fucking "tard"

Coming from teh moron claiming that Jman is capable of low diffing here, and the same guy that claims Jman>SM Kabuto, i really dont know what i expected

And im also not wasting my breath any further with this, quite frankly, sad opinion


Hussain said:


> tards: Sasuke wins handly.


If you do this amazing thing called look at ALL of the evidence, its pretty plain to see that he does.

But with a view on the manga as misconstrued as yours where you end up with Jman>Kabuto in your head...I guess expecting objectivity is a bit beyond you.


Zero890 said:


> Amped COR? lol that was base Naruto


Amped by ohnoki


Hussain said:


> He always whining about people being "dishonest"
> and even tho in the previous debate I told him that it was base Naruto


I call people out on being dishonest because apparently nobody here knows how to read or use their eyes to interpret a simple manga panel intended for 13 year olds properly

Cuz you clearly see Ohnoki assist Naruto in that clash

Hence "amped"

And youre being dishonest here by thinking you proved anything with your struggle ass opinions when you cant even comprehend that simple fact and are pushing that i somehow dont understand something 

This thread is an actual dumspter fire 

Just another place where Jman nutthuggers can congregate and push their biased views together while ignoring the parts of the manga that contradict their opinions

Then call anyone who disagrees with them stupid or a "tard" and spam downvotes just because they dont like to deal with conflicting information or opinions

Nothing new here i guess


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 3, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Jiraiya has a few Jutsu that are dangerous to Sasuke in the short term (Frog Call and Frog Kata), b




The knowledge part of your post takes a huge dent if you're assuming Jiraiya has Frog Kata like Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Jman>SM Kabuto, i really dont know what i expected



Seriously?


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## Shazam (Aug 3, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Not when interpreted properly.
> 
> Except Naruto surpassed Minato when he got SM too. If you really want to look at it, then the SM-MS counter parts were Hashirama and Madara (the first MS user)... you know Naruto and Sasuke in a previous life.
> 
> ...



SM Jman = MS Itachi
SM Naruto = MS Sasuke

Nothing wrong about saying that.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Shazam said:


> SM Jman = MS Itachi
> SM Naruto = MS Sasuke
> 
> Nothing wrong about saying that.


Minus the fact the former is never stated or shown of course 

Conversely...

SM Naruto > SM Jman (Stated and Shown...Several times. Pain, who had fought both of them, outright says Naruto has pushed him FAR FURTHER than any other foe...Jman is included in that demographic)

MS Sasuke = SM Naruto (Stated more times than you can count on one hand...Agreed with by both character involved and everyone this statement is fed to)

MS Sasuke = SM Naruto > SM Jman

Nothing wrong in stating that


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## Buuhan (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And you have even worse reading ability than i gave you credit for
> 
> And thats saying something
> 
> ...


You can’t just scale up to a v2 and v3 and equate it to Madaras rib cage. There is no correlation.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Unless the OP straight up fucking lied when he put "FKS" in the title and i stead meant "Killer Bee" fight...
> 
> Sasuke wins handily
> 
> ...


6 disagrees that Sasuke can kill a sage weaker than a Sage he was stated to be able to kill in canon...According to a Sage...

Whew boy 

Those be some THICC Rose tinted glasses you kids read this manga through if ive ever seen any

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Debate without complaining about the Jman fans


Debate without going against the manga


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## Mori Jin (Aug 3, 2018)

Jiraiya wins this. 

Sage Mode > MS, as shown against every SM vs MS in the Manga. 

Frog Song gg. Danger sensing > MS precog. Jiraiya's summons > Sasuke. Toad oil + Fire > Sasuke in his immobile Susano'o (Sasuke has shown he needs help dealing with being cooked within his susano'o). 

Overall Jiraiya wins this Mid diff.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 3, 2018)

Shazam said:


> SM Jman = MS Itachi
> SM Naruto = MS Sasuke
> 
> Nothing wrong about saying that.



Nothing wrong if you want to pretend the points that contradict you don't exist. 

If anything

Itachi = Minato > Jiraiya

SM Naruto = MS Sasuke. Chapter 430 still happened, like it or not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> You can’t just scale up to a v2 and v3 and equate it to Madaras rib cage. There is no correlation.


An MS V3 Susanoo, used by a near death Itachi, protected Itachi from taking the full brunt of fucking Kirin

Tsunade could get through Madaras ribcage with 2 goddamn punches

Are you REALLY gonna sit there and suggest that a V3 MS Susanoo is inferior to Madaras ribcage? And that theres no cause to say that V3 cat AT FUCKING LEAST replicate a LOW END of Madaras ribcage?

If so dude...Youre beyond my desire (or patience) to help


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## Buuhan (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> An MS V3 Susanoo, used by a near death Itachi, protected Itachi from taking the full brunt of fucking Kirin
> 
> Tsunade could get through Madaras ribcage with 2 goddamn punches
> 
> ...


Another issue with your post is that you used a feat of base naruto while a COR from SM jman would be substantially more powerful. The databook iirc detailed it being capable of carving out a mountain. Acting like sage jiraiya has nothing to deal with a largely immobile susanoo is laughable especially when he has a plethora of techs that would force sasuke out of it and into a cqc battle.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And gets fucking decimated
> 
> While the rinnegan user was nerfed and Jman held a location advantage mind you
> 
> ...



1- He killed 3 bodies, and then fought all 6 at once with one hand and still managed to defeat one of them.
2- "location advantage at the enemy's own territory "  If anything, Jman is the one who is nerfed since Nagato is already aware of his jutsu and know how to counter them, but of course you will overlook that.

3- Naruto was stated to be stronger than Sasuke by Zetsu.
and obviously, Naruto will do better. By the time he fought Pain he had full knowledge (which Pain admitted that he wouldn't have won had Jman had full knowledge either but of course you would overlook that)




WorldsStrongest said:


> No he isnt
> 
> And this is contradicted by later events regardless
> 
> ...



1- Yes he is. Stated directly by the guy himself, but of course, you are too blinded to see that. 
2- No, it's not contradicted. Rather, it was reinforced by the theme of the manga, but of course, you can't see that. 
3- And Jman was OUTRIGHT stated to be superior to itachi, your point?
What Naruto was stated to be better at is his SM being better than Jman's. I don't deny that. 

4- Yes, SM Naruto Vs Blind Sasuke = mutual death. 
let's also ignore that Naruto holds back against Sasuke in order not to kill him.

5- At least not like u who can't see that Jman has underground moves, Sound based moves, and sensing abilities
that fucked EMS Sasuke over. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> If you do this amazing thing called look at ALL of the evidence, its pretty plain to see that he does.
> 
> But with a view on the manga as misconstrued as yours where you end up with Jman>Kabuto in your head...I guess expecting objectivity is a bit beyond you.



All the evidence like how Sasunnoo (Sasuke's best move) is weak to Sound Jutsu (that Jman has)
the evidence that SM sense was enough to avoid Sasuke's Susanoo's arrows
The evidence that underground attacks is effective against Susanoo user
evidence that V3 Susanoo that was destroyed by Bijuu's tails can't be crushed by dropping a huge frog on it
evidence that Jman sealed Amaterasu.
evidence that itachi admitted that Jman is stronger than him and in best case scenario for them, they can only tie.

G, I wonder what manga are you looking at? I bet it's manga Raruto. 


Stop whining like a loser and trying to bend the thread topic to another one. It's pretty pathetic.
If you want to debate Jman Vs Kabuto, open another thread and I don't mind debating you there.



WorldsStrongest said:


> I call people out on being dishonest because apparently nobody here knows how to read or use their eyes to interpret a simple manga panel intended for 13 year olds properly
> 
> Cuz you clearly see Ohnoki assist Naruto in that clash
> 
> ...



- Yes, and that includes you of course.
What so hard to get of itachi admitting that he is weaker than Jman
or that sound/underground attacks bypass Susanoo, or sensing can help you to avoid those attacks?
What so hard to understand that someone who took on a Rinnegan user (2 stages above MS) will not "lose handly" to a MS user.
Especially not one that got his power a moment ago. 


Furthermore, people often talk about fanfiction Sasuke, where he has a perfect mastery over his eyes and perfect eyesight.
let me enlighten you. This Sasuke does not exist. 




> Cuz you clearly see Ohnoki assist Naruto in that clash


Yeah, Onoki OBVIOUSLY made the COR stronger.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> Sage Mode > MS, as shown against every SM vs MS in the Manga.


  




  outright states Sage Mode alone isnt beating this MS user...But sure you push that biased, unsupported narrative till youre blue in the face champ 


Mori Jin said:


> Frog Song gg


Oh ffs  

Yeah cuz hes certainly getting this off against a guy who can simply genjutsu one of the toads the second he sees Jman and get it to stop singing for even just a millisecond and cancel Frog Song entirely 

Or light the three of them up with amaterasu...Thatd shut em up real good


Mori Jin said:


> Danger sensing > MS precog


Danger sensing Jman doesnt have 

Danger sensing that 


Mori Jin said:


> Jiraiya's summons > Sasuke


Snakes are portrayed > Toads actually kiddo

Add to that, 

Add to that, Sasuke can just hypnotize any Toad Jman pulls out and call it a day

 and that was BEFORE he attained a Kyuubi taming MS of his own 

How do Gamabuntas chances look now 


Mori Jin said:


> Toad oil + Fire > Sasuke in his immobile Susano'o




Sasuke is also capable of using Enton, which adds shape manipulation to AMaterasu...Making it EVEN MORE powerful...

Jman also needs a summon up to use Oil....And we just established hes not fucking doing that 


Mori Jin said:


> Sasuke has shown he needs help dealing with being cooked within his susano'o


 

Im sure no one will notice that 

You also dont scale featless Katons to a corrosive Kekkei Genkai with better feats and hype dude 

Lurk more 

And maybe stop downvoting every post you disagree with when its pretty clear you dont actually know what youre talking about

Reactions: Like 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Yeah, Onoki OBVIOUSLY made the COR stronger.


-snip-
What hurts more? Me hitting you in the face with a bat while youre at rest? Or you sticking your head out of a car window and driving into my bat swing at 100 mph?

Go on

Guess


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## Mori Jin (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> outright states Sage Mode alone isnt beating this MS user...But sure you push that biased, unsupported narrative till youre blue in the face champ
> 
> Oh ffs
> 
> ...



Sage Mode Naruto and MS Sasuke fought? They're both alive now, even after they fought each other. 

Sage Mode Hashirama > MS Madara 

Sage Mode Hashirama > EMS Madara + Plus Kurama

Sage Mode Kabuto (Lost due to plot, Uchiha brothers had nothing in their arsenal to take him down, Genjutsu the shit itachi was famous for wasn't going to work against a blind Kabuto, so plot brought in a a genjutsu that works against those are blind). 

Blind Sage Mode Madara > EMS Sasuke. 

Put in whatever little gifs you like. Sage Mode Jiraiya had to be taken down by 6 paths of pain. MS Sasuke that went blind in a matter of weeks, ain't doing shit to him. 

Nearly got cooked against Mei, and then by Momoshiki. He needed help both times.

Bring on the excuses. 

Nagato with a Rinnegan > Jiraiya 

Madara also needed a Rinnegan technique to beat Hashirama. 

Ain't no MS user (especially Sasuke) doing jack to Jiraiya.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 3, 2018)

Sasuke. Amaterasu oneshots.


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Youre a moron if you think otherwise
> 
> What hurts more? Me hitting you in the face with a bat while youre at rest? Or you sticking your head out of a car window and driving into my bat swing at 100 mph?
> 
> ...



Good job at countering the points. 

> implying the moving ground was 100 mph. 
you are trying to grasp at straws when the manga did not make any note of it. It was just so Asspulldara wouldn't move.
And even if we were to go with your argument, that still wouldn't equal SM for fuck's sake. 


Also, at your previous "lolproof" 
Naruto was simply talking about Indra's chakra in Sasuke.



"you can't beat Sasuke by being strong"
is about this whole reincarnation nonsense. 

But sure, SM Naruto = Blind Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> Sage Mode Hashirama > MS Madara


RECTONS!!! How can you NOT understand a manga that is meant for 13 years old kids! OMG!!! 
The itachi thing is OBVIOUSLY a retcon, ALL the manga shows MS users > SM users, you people are morons 




-------



--------




-------
*Not so much, but whatever *



------------------



(not the exact trasnaltion, but whatever now)



----
B-b-but itachi-sama! 
He is so different, he is so special, this must be fabrication you itachi-hater! 
this can't be! just because the narrative tells us, and shows us how SM users are superior, that does not mean our lord and savior itachi is under the same law! he is MORE special than the rest! 

Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi! Comes save itachi and one-shot those fodder sannin! 



HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THE RETCONS IN THERE???!!! ITACHI'S STATEMENT IS CONTRADICTED BY LATER EVENTS 


contradicted my ass.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

This kid goin for an all time record of embarrassing himself 


Mori Jin said:


> Sage Mode Naruto and MS Sasuke fought?


Oh cool

Youre a child who doesnt understand author intent, portrayal, or character statements whatsoever


Mori Jin said:


> Sage Mode Hashirama > MS Madara
> 
> Sage Mode Hashirama > EMS Madara + Plus Kurama


In no way due to Sage mode 

He beats Madara and Kurama with MOKUTON their entire lives

Also this is irrelevent regardless as you premise has been proven false anyway

You claim that SM users are inherently stronger than MS users because Hashiramam beat Madara?

Thats only the definition of a false equivalence bud 

I might as well claim that every MS user claps every Sage because no Sage can touch DMS kakashi 

Just as dump and just as wrong 

Anywho, you also claimed that its in the narrative that Sages> MS users...I then showed you 3 separate fucking pages of a Sage outright saying he CANT BEAT AN MS USER

So...Basically...Youre wrong here 


Mori Jin said:


> Blind Sage Mode Madara > EMS Sasuke.


Then Base Madara> SM Naruto 

Base Uchihas> Sage mode user confirmed now 

Gtfo 

You really dont know what youre talking about nor how to debate


Mori Jin said:


> Put in whatever little gifs you like.


I shall

Gotta entertain myself somehow

Only takes me 2 seconds to disprove your cute little "logic"


Mori Jin said:


> Sage Mode Jiraiya had to be taken down by 6 paths of pain


"Had to"

Adorable


Mori Jin said:


> MS Sasuke that went blind in a matter of weeks, ain't doing shit to him.


What the fuck 

Now MS blindness correlates with overall standing?

Are you even trying anymore?



Mori Jin said:


> Nearly got cooked against Mei, and then by Momoshiki.


Holy fuck you might be the most dishonest kid ive ever seen 

Already told you why you citing the Mei example looks bad...And tehn you fucking turn around and claim that Jman is gonna replicate MOMOSHIKIS performance?

Holy jesus take all of my lols

Also answer me this dude...Momoshiki had byakugan did he not? And did he not bury Rikudo SM Naruto ina cliff at one point?

Does thsi mean that All Byakugan users > Sage Mode users 

Because using your logic, thats what we are left with 


Mori Jin said:


> Ain't no MS user (especially Sasuke) doing jack to Jiraiya.


Obito, Madara, Shisui, or DMS Kakashi are all beating the daylights out of Jman dude

Sasuke and Itachi are also favored well over him if you use your eyes even vaguely

And your dumpster fire of a post does nothing to indicate otherwise

Heres a tip...Lurk more...And stop using umbrella statements and logic and false equivalences...

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Good job at countering the points.
> 
> > implying the moving ground was 100 mph.


Good job having the reading comprehension of a 4 year old and taking a hyperbolic analogy fucking literally 

You will never improve will you?

You even had your boy Cosmos doubting you in a thread earlier this week 

Also, it aint my job to make you understand basic physics

Go and cry to your 8th grade science teacher taht you still dont get the lesson

Then come back to me 


Hussain said:


> Also, at your previous "lolproof"
> Naruto was simply talking about Indra's chakra


Indras chakra represents what hussain?

Not the power of ones EYES is it?

And what eyes did Sasuke have at that juncture 

Was it...No...Theres no way it was MS was it 

And do tell how this debunks the other 15 thousand fucking times Naruto states Sasuke is killing him and vice versa if they fought with MS vs SM 

And then tell me how that pushes a "Body>Eye" narrative 

And do all of this without making a fool of yourself


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## Gohara (Aug 3, 2018)

There are good arguments for both of those characters winning that match up in my opinion.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Neither do you. I think it's pretty hypocritical of you to accuse him of that
> when you can't get a straightforward statement either.


Hussain, im not taking anything that comes from your face seriously regarding credibility when you actually argue that Jman beats Kabuto

And the fact you legit just tried to fucking defend a kid who tried to push Jmans superiority over Adult Sasuke and parity with Momoshiki...ANd then state that every MS user loses to Jman...

And the fact that you think having a few pals like your posts and you constantly downvoting mine that arent even addressed to you somehow validates your beliefs 

Far as im concerned, the more someone DISAGREES with your interpretation of events, the more correct they are

Thats how little of an opinion i have regarding your version of events


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## Kisame (Aug 3, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> Sage Mode Hashirama > EMS Madara + Plus Kurama


But that would mean SM > EMS + Nine Tails.

Are you suggesting that even if Sasuke can hypothetically have Kurama fight by his side after he has awakened the EMS he would still lose to Jiraiya? 


> Sage Mode Kabuto


Orochimaru who isn't far off from Jiraiya if at all, wanted to attain Snake SM, and mix all the unique DNA's in one body. If he did that he would neg diff SM Jiraiya. SM Kabuto achieved that. So to chalk up Kabuto's power level as solely due to "SM" is ignoring all his Orochimaru powers, and his DNA powers.


> Blind Sage Mode Madara > EMS Sasuke.


Blind Sage Madara is > SM Naruto who is > SM Jiraiya. That tells you that who the shinobi is has something to do with it too, just like Kabuto.


> age Mode Jiraiya had to be taken down by 6 paths of pain.


Why do people only look at one piece of portrayal and ignore everything else all the time? How are we suppose to get a full picture if we don't take everything into consideration?


> Ain't no MS user (especially Sasuke) doing jack to Jiraiya.


Here's a good question: If Jiraiya started in base, would he make it to SM against MS Sasuke?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Good job having the reading comprehension of a 4 year old and taking a hyperbolic analogy fucking literally
> 
> You will never improve will you?
> 
> ...



I guess you are an unborn child then.
The distance that Asspulldara was risen 2, and the speed was barely noticeable since the distance is extremely small.
Even if we were to go with your rambling rubbish, the "increase" in power would barely be significant if at all. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Indras chakra represents what hussain?
> 
> Not the power of ones EYES is it?
> 
> ...



No.
The representation of that statement and their entire damn battle is EXACTLY what Naruto said
"you can't defeat Sasuke by being strong"

Because Indra/Asura keep reincarnating, and thus, even if you were stronger than him and were to kill him
(like how Hashirama did with Asspulldara) that same thing will keep happening again. Therefore, Naruto must take the path
that he did take, so that would stop.

This was illustrated in their final battle as well by destroying Hashi/Asspulldara's statues. A new path was created.
A representative of ending the hate cycle between the 2 brothers.








If you ask me, it's funny that you go babbling about how this manga is meant for children, and yet you don't have enough reading comprehension to understand the most basic and obvious idea the writer is trying to get across. 


Even tho Naruto, as you said it, "OUTRIGHT" stated the goal.



All of this goes back to the fact that "indra's chakra is reincarnated in Sasuke" & "you can't beat Sasuke by being strong"
It's rather simple...


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

@Hussain revenge negging is against the rules bud




Hussain said:


> If you ask me


I didnt

Nor will i ever

Already said so


WorldsStrongest said:


> Far as im concerned, the more someone DISAGREES with your interpretation of events, the more correct they are
> 
> Thats how little of an opinion i have regarding your version of events


So i highly recommend either ignoring me of your own volition, or using the sites function to ignore me

That or at the very least, stop acting like you prove anything to me or debunk anything i say...Cuz you dont...Half the time you dont even respond to what i SAY you just make shit up and reply to that. Hence why you barely have my attention anymore, cuz i clearly dont get the same respect from you.

Your view on events is, in my opinion, appalling

And i truly dont give a shit what you think about mine as a result


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And i truly dont give a shit what you think about mine as a result


I would like to remind you that you are the one who quoted me.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Hussain said:


> I would like to remind you that you are the one who quoted me.


As you passive aggressively insulted anyone with a conflicting opinion to yours

Myself included 


Hussain said:


> tards: Sasuke wins handly.


It seems that not only do you not understand manga context, but you cant even keep words said in an actual conversation straight


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## Mori Jin (Aug 3, 2018)

Hussain said:


> RECTONS!!! How can you NOT understand a manga that is meant for 13 years old kids! OMG!!!
> The itachi thing is OBVIOUSLY a retcon, ALL the manga shows MS users > SM users, you people are morons
> 
> 
> ...



The guys a hypocrite. A sage mode user has never lost to an MS user in the entire manga. Not once. 

But according to this uchiha Stan, retcons and whatnot means MS user is superior. I ain't even going to reply to his delusional ass. He can believe whatever retarded nonsense he wants. 

Manga shows SM > MS. The only time that's different or even debatable is the plot no Jutsu Itachi and Sasuke (EMS user at that time), had going for them against the superior SM user that is Kabuto.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> The guys a hypocrite





Mori Jin said:


> A sage mode user has never lost to an MS user in the entire manga


Sage users lost to Base Uchihas tho 

And according to you that means that every Base Uchiha > Every Sage 

And no sage in thsi franchise is beating DMS Kakashi or Obito, which according to you means every MS User is > Every Sage user


Mori Jin said:


> according to this uchiha Stan


Because thekid who is literally making shit up as he goes along has any right to talk down to anyone 


Mori Jin said:


> retcons and whatnot means MS user is superior.


Never once did i say shit about retcons towards you

I just tore your hilarious false equivalence castle down is all

You legit claimed that Jman was beating Sasuke because Momoshiki harmed Adult Sasuke...Among other atrocities

And somehow you and hussain have 0 issues with that logic



Mori Jin said:


> I ain't even going to reply to his delusional ass.


Dude...You legit made shit up as you went along...

You cant put your foot in your mouth much harder


Mori Jin said:


> He can believe whatever retarded nonsense he wants.


So can you kid

If you seriously wanna believe that Jman beats Obito or Kakashi because Hashriama beat Madara...Then by all means

Far be it from me to stop you 


Mori Jin said:


> Manga shows SM > MS


Except no it doesnt 


Mori Jin said:


> The only time that's different or even debatable is the plot no Jutsu


Certainly not due to teh overwhelming power advantages half the MS users have over Jman 

Yeah its entirely all plot that Jman cant beat Obito or Madara or Sasuke or Itachi 

Youre right


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## Blu-ray (Aug 3, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Manga: Jman fights Pain (Rinnegan user) and stated to be stronger than itachi (MS) user.
> tards: Sasuke wins handly.





Mori Jin said:


> Jiraiya wins this.
> 
> Sage Mode > MS, as shown against every SM vs MS in the Manga.
> 
> ...


This whole thread is cancer, but these 2 posts especially exemplify why any Jiraiya debate, especially those the Jiraiya vs Uchiha variety are straight up the plague.

Is Jiraiya>Obito and Madara because he has Sage Mode and they have MS? Is Nagato>Madara because Rinnegan is higher on the dojutsu hierarchy? No. It's such inane argumentation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 3, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Manga: Jman fights Pain (Rinnegan user) and stated to be stronger than itachi (MS) user.
> tards: Sasuke wins handly.



> Thinks Minato beats DMS Obito using PS and 100% Kurama
> Thinks Minato beats Kyuusano
> Thinks Minato solos Hashirama
> Thinks Tobirama solos Hashirama
> Consistently misinterprets manga
> Calls other posters tards


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 3, 2018)

I wonder if we asked certain posters if it was Minato instead of Jiraiya... same abilities but the outward appearance is Minato. Would Minato fans say Jiraiya wins easily?


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Is Jiraiya>Obito and Madara because he has Sage Mode and they have MS? Is Nagato>Madara because Rinnegan is higher on the dojutsu hierarchy? No. It's such inane argumentation.



1- Jman Vs Obito is tricky because of how Kamui works. That not to say he will be easily defeated or anything. 
After all Konan (That Jman one-shotted) almost killed Obito.  
Also, Jman was directly stated to be stronger (or at least, on the same level as itachi. I don't feel like dealing with his fans)

Itachi has Susanoo, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi. Sasuke has more or less the same abilities, just instead of Tsukuyomi has Enton.
So, if we were to say that Jman >/= itachi, it stands to reason that he can deal with the same jutsu from another guy. Who does not
necessarily has the stronger (or far stronger?) version of the same jutsu. 

2- Asspulldara's power with MS is unknown, so there is no point bringing him up. 
Furthermore, the listed characters are with their counterparts
A) Hashirama-Asspulldara (fought, direct comparison)
B) Jiraiya-itachi (direct comparison) 
C) Naruto-Sasuke (direct comparison) 
D) Kabuto-itachi/Sasuke (fought) 
E) Minato-Obito (fought)*

* the last is not so much really, but Minato has SM, and Obito has MS. So, whatever. 

It makes no sense that we take all those battles and statements, and then when it comes to itachi we start creating excuses and
babbling about retcons and other nonsense when it did not happen. His fans take whatever statement and claim that
it's 100% accurate and there is no denying it's the truth (about Tsokyomi) and then takes any statement that they did not like 
(his statement about Jman) and start complaining about how it's not true. Recently, even Kisame's fanboys followed their example
with the "retcon" nonsense. Like, how can anyone take any fandom seriously that the members of this fandom are desperate to say
that anything against their favorite is a retcon and cannot be taken? Especially if the manga is constant with its parallel and the same
thing continued to the very end?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Debate without going against the manga



It is said by someone who denies that Jiraiya is> Itachi as per canon


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2018)

oh, and @Blu-ray

I find it funny, that you said " It's such inane argumentation."
When itachi's fans use the exact same argument when it suits them as well. For example,

itachi defeated Oro
therefore, itachi defeats Jiraiya.

Even though the only shared thing between them is the fact that they were on the same team like 40 years ago or something. 
And their ENTIRE moveset is different than each other, yet you don't see that "insanity" in it. 

However, taking the argument against the uchiha who are ALL share the exact same clan, and the same element (fire)
and the same eyes, and *mostly* the same abilities is insane in your opinion?


like in itachi's arguments against Jiraiya, I look at Oro's abilities and Jiraiya's
what are the jutsu that they have in commen? And I see nothing. But somehow, it's a good argument that is

Fire (itachi) > Grass (Oro)
Grass (Oro) > water (Jiraiya)
then fire (itachi) > water (Jiraiya)


However, when we take the comparison between Jman Vs itachi to Jman Vs Sasuke who

1- brothers
2- have fire jutsu
3- share the same Shurkin abilities
4- Have Sharingan
5- Have MS
6- Have Amaterasu
7- Have Susanoo
8- Roughly the same speed

then, we can't conclude if
water (Jiraiya) > fire (itachi)
then that means
water (Jiraiya) > fire (Sasuke)

?

like you seriously think the first one makes more sense than the 2nd one?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 3, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> It is said by someone who denies that Jiraiya is> Itachi as per canon



As expect from Sage Zero890



Hussain said:


> oh, and @Blu-ray
> 
> I find it funny, that you said " It's such inane argumentation."
> When itachi's fans use the exact same argument when it suits them as well. For example,
> ...



Do you say Tobirama>Hashirama for the same reasons you say Minato>Hashirama?


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> It is said by someone who denies that Jiraiya is> Itachi as per canon


Except thats not whats in canon

And your championing a statement you take woefully out of context to wank Jmans portrayal, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that Jman is portrayed below SM Naruto who Sasuke is portrayed equal to.

So if youre seriously gonna sit there and argue Jman wins because hes seemingly "above Itachi" based on a single statement you dont even truly have...Then you must concede that due to SEVERAL statements AND SHOWINGS, Jman is below Naruto...And no sage below Naruto is beating Narutos fucking equal

Youre getting pissy because i disagree with your INTERPETATION of a single statement, but im not ignoring it just looking at it differently. Meanwhile, you straight up ignore about half a dozen admissions of inferiority on Jmans part, and statements of superiority that put Naruto above him...And dont even offer another line of thinking regarding those scans.

You are straight up ignoring them

The hypocrisy here is ridiculous

Reactions: Like 3


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## Zero890 (Aug 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Except thats not whats in canon
> 
> And your championing a statement you take woefully out of context to wank Jmans portrayal, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that Jman is portrayed below SM Naruto who Sasuke is portrayed equal to.
> 
> ...



"Hypocrisy" Describe perfectly what you do and then complain about me or someone else "because we're going against the Manga"


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## Braiyan (Aug 3, 2018)

Oh great, it's this thread again. Well, if FKS means Sasuke also gets his feats from the Danzo fight then he wins. Manga knowledge means stuff like Susano'o, Susano'o arrows and Enton are going to be a nasty surprise for Jiraiya. Once those jutsus come out Jiraiya is pretty much screwed in terms of mounting an offense, since they can reliably counter his arsenal and put him in a bad position, whereas his options don't really do the same for Sasuke.


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## Shazam (Aug 3, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> Oh great, it's this thread again. Well, if FKS means Sasuke also gets his feats from the Danzo fight then he wins. Manga knowledge means stuff like Susano'o, Susano'o arrows and Enton are going to be a nasty surprise for Jiraiya. Once those jutsus come out Jiraiya is pretty much screwed in terms of mounting an offense, since they can reliably counter his arsenal and put him in a bad position, whereas his options don't really do the same for Sasuke.



Sharingan? Dust Clouds
Susanoo?  Yomi Numa 
Frog Call GG.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 4, 2018)

Amaterasu should tag Jiraiya.

He doesn't know Sasuke possesses the MS.

You can throw in randomized Susano grapples as even if you granted him knowledge Sasuke possessed MS - he probably still wouldn't know of Susano either - as he didn't even know of .

Jiraiya's not avoiding them either - he's not  who dodges Susano Arrows casually, and Kabuto knew the arm was out and already had knowledge on the Susano.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Braiyan (Aug 4, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Sharingan? Dust Clouds



Dust clouds don't stop the spread of Amaterasu nor do they occupy the field indefinitely.



Shazam said:


> Susanoo?  Yomi Numa



If only Sasuke possessed an element that counters Doton. If only Susano'o possessed strength feats.



Shazam said:


> Frog Call GG.



No proof that it disables Susano'o, which it would have to do for it to be a "GG".


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## Shazam (Aug 4, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> Dust clouds don't stop the spread of Amaterasu nor do they occupy the field indefinitely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dust clouds block vision and stop the use of Amaterasu targeting. Can also be used as a ploy to prep frog song

Yomi Numa works against the users chakra. Ration would help but we've never seen Sasuke use any type of raiton while having his MS and with Susanoo up.  It was always Enton 

Frog Song will GG just as Kabuto sage art genjutsu was working on his EMS self.


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## Braiyan (Aug 4, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Dust clouds block vision and stop the use of Amaterasu targeting.



My point still stands.




Shazam said:


> Yomi Numa works against the users chakra.



Stated where?



Shazam said:


> Ration would help but we've never seen Sasuke use any type of raiton while having his MS and with Susanoo up. It was always Enton



So you're telling me Sasuke can use a generic Katon with Susano'o up, but Raiton is somehow out of the question, despite him demonstrating a Raiton expelled from his whole body?




Shazam said:


> Frog Song will GG just as Kabuto sage art genjutsu was working on his EMS self.



We were talking about Frog Call though.
Frog Song requires prep time that reveals Jiraiya's location, restricts a good portion of his arsenal whilst he's vulnerable, and would be unlikely to get off with an MS Sasuke trying to kill him. As opposed to Kabuto's genjutsu, which took effect almost as soon as he heard it.


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## Shazam (Aug 4, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> My point still stands.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yomi Numa details are stated in the DB

Nothing still stands about what you said concerning dust clouds

Jiraiya was able to escape to use it against Pain. While in Konoha he should be able to do the same to Sasuke. No reason to suggest he couldn't


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Sharingan? Dust Clouds
> Susanoo?  Yomi Numa
> Frog Call GG.



Dust Clouds, Katon, the weather changing one.

Yomi Numa, firstly lol to the fact you think it stops Susanoo. Second, lol that you forgot Sasuke's Raiton can troll it.

Frog Call, well it isn't like Sasuke has arrows that break the sound barrier or lightning he can bring down or anything.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Yomi Numa details are stated in the DB
> 
> Nothing still stands about what you said concerning dust clouds
> 
> Jiraiya was able to escape to use it against Pain. While in Konoha he should be able to do the same to Sasuke. No reason to suggest he couldn't



Explain how Yomi Numa does what you tricked yourself into thinking it'll do. 

Dust clouds are still Fuuton jutsu; Katon > Fuuton. 

Pain didn't take Jiraiya seriously hence Jiraiya could do a lot of what he did. Sasuke will be taking Jiraiya very seriously from the outset. 

I bet you forgot Susanoo can use jutsu.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Frog Call, well it isn't like Sasuke has arrows that break the sound barrier or lightning he can bring down or anything.


frog call has paralyzing effect so Sauske wouldn't be able to use jutsu


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> frog call has paralyzing effect so Sauske wouldn't be able to use jutsu



It isn't like White Rage, so jutsu like Susanoo are still going to be maintainable. Jutsu which don't require physical movement like Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi will also be perfect akin to how Sasuke managed to use Genjutsu when paralysed and Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi when he was frozen.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It isn't like White Rage, so jutsu like Susanoo are still going to be maintainable. Jutsu which don't require physical movement like Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi will also be perfect akin to how Sasuke managed to use Genjutsu when paralysed and Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi when he was frozen.


The databook says that it temporaily annoys and the distracts the user as well, so jutsu that requires concentration like Susanoo or Amaterasu for example can't be used or will have its use inhibited for that matter


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> The databook says that it temporaily annoys and the distracts the user as well, so jutsu that requires concentration like Susanoo or Amaterasu for example can't be used



Tayuya's Genjutsu does the same thing. Yet, the bros could use ocular powers while under the illusion. Though, it has a more permanent effect c.t. Frog Call. A Amaterasu-Kagutsuchi combo like what happened with Kaguya's Ice World can still be used.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tayuya's Genjutsu does the same thing. Yet, the bros could use ocular powers while under the illusion. Though, it has a more permanent effect c.t. Frog Call. A Amaterasu-Kagutsuchi combo like what happened with Kaguya's Ice World can still be used.


it can likely be used but it will still be inhibited to an extent. Sasuke requires focus to aim where his Amaterasu goes and he also requires focus to accurately control his enton. Frog call strips that *focus* albeit temporarily


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> it can likely be used but it will still be inhibited to an extent. Sasuke requires focus to aim where his Amaterasu goes and he also requires focus to accurately control his enton. Frog call strips that *focus* albeit temporarily




Not to use Amaterasu, for the most part. Kagutsuchi can just be used however, especially if there are flames around anyway.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Not to use Amaterasu, for the most part.


Something that requires accuracy requires focus dude

Or do you think Amaterasu magically shoots itself on its own will?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kagutsuchi can just be used however, especially if there are flames around anyway.


I mean sure he can control it but it won't be as efficient


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Something that requires accuracy requires focus dude
> 
> Or do you think Amaterasu magically shoots itself on its own will?



If it is like White Rage, if Susanoo/Amaterasu is being used, that'll be disturbed. Whereas if Sasuke plans to use something after its used which requires focus, it'll work e.g. Itachi and Susanoo. 




> I mean sure he can control it but it won't be as efficient



Random flame spikes or some sort of barrier between him and his foes will do the job that he wants it to do.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi and Susanoo.


Itachi could only use Susanoo because he wasn't inhibited by internal pain of white rage(ET can't feel pain) therefore he was able to manifest susanoo to protect Sasuke. Notice how Sasuke still wasn't able to use it while Itachi could.

Even then it appears his Susanoo couldn't attack but rather manifest in place to protect Sasuke. Though i guess one could argue because Itachi didn't want to attack him



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If it is like White Rage, if Susanoo/Amaterasu is being used, that'll be disturbed.




Elaborate I'm confused to what you're trying to get at



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Random flame spikes or some sort of barrier between him and his foes will do the job that he wants it to do.


Random flame spikes thrown all over the place serve zero to no purpose unless it's accurately aimed at J man, which as I mention above is not happening when FC is disturbing his attention and focus



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> barrier between him and his foes will do the job that he wants it to do.


Shii be lookin like some maze if the dude don't have focus my man


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Itachi could only use Susanoo because he wasn't inhibited by internal pain of white rage(ET can't feel pain) therefore he was able to manifest susanoo to protect Sasuke. Notice how Sasuke still wasn't able to use it while Itachi could.
> 
> Even then it appears his Susanoo couldn't attack but rather manifest in place to protect Sasuke. Though i guess one could argue because Itachi didn't want to attack him[/QUOTE}
> 
> ...


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## Braiyan (Aug 4, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Yomi Numa details are stated in the DB



At no point in the databook is it stated that Yomi Numa "works against the users chakra".



Shazam said:


> Nothing still stands about what you said concerning dust clouds



I said:



> Dust clouds don't stop the spread of Amaterasu nor do they occupy the field indefinitely



You reply to this with:



Shazam said:


> Dust clouds block vision and stop the use of Amaterasu targeting.



At no point does the above address the fact that dust clouds don't stop fire from burning (Which is kind of important in Sasuke's case since he has Enton and Jiraiya has no knowledge on it).

At no point does the above address the fact that dust clouds will not stay on the field forever, especially in an open location, where Susano'o attacks and ranged jutsus will inevitably contribute to the dust dissipating.




Shazam said:


> Jiraiya was able to escape to use it against Pain.



In a favourable location. When those Paths used 0 ranged attacks. Or attacks as fast as Susano'o Arrows/Amaterasu.

That example is not equivalent with this matchup.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> At no point in the databook is it stated that Yomi Numa "works against the users chakra".


Sauce also has feats of discerning Doton techniques in particular based on their hand seals alone

And has a raiton affinity

And has a flying summon

He is probably the most well equipped Kage tier to deal with Yomi Numa


Braiyan said:


> At no point does the above address the fact that dust clouds don't stop fire from burning


Yeah...Jman fans seem to think dust and smoke function as a forcefield for some reason

They act as tho it would impede amaterasu or enton somehow...Then when its pointed out to them that Amaterasu has been fired at targets that the user hasnt had full focus on, and the fact amaterasu possesses forward momentum and will push through the smoke regardless...They just ignore that and say "smokescreen gg" again.


Braiyan said:


> In a favourable location. When those Paths used 0 ranged attacks. Or attacks as fast as Susano'o Arrows/Amaterasu.
> 
> That example is not equivalent with this matchup.


It also wasnt anywhere near pains full power that Jman pulled it off against

He fought 3 paths and barely managed to get it off

And 2 of the 3 paths forgot they had abilities to use 

Odd how Animal path never summoned anything at that juncture in the fight aint it?


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## Zero890 (Aug 4, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Sauce also has feats of discerning Doton techniques in particular based on their hand seals alone
> 
> And has a raiton affinity
> 
> ...



So what? Having the elemental advantage does not mean that Sasuke automatically cancels Yomi Numa, then fire ball Jutsu exceeds FRS?

Yomi Numa has a scale much greater than any Sasuke' Raiton, it can contain much more Chakra than Sasuke's Jutsus.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah...Jman fans seem to think dust and smoke function as a forcefield for some reason
> 
> They act as tho it would impede amaterasu or enton somehow...Then when its pointed out to them that Amaterasu has been fired at targets that the user hasnt had full focus on, and the fact amaterasu possesses forward momentum and will push through the smoke regardless...They just ignore that and say "smokescreen gg" again



If he can not see where Jiraiya is, he will not know where to throw Amaterasu lol.



WorldsStrongest said:


> It also wasnt anywhere near pains full power that Jman pulled it off against
> 
> He fought 3 paths and barely managed to get it off
> 
> ...



1. Jiraiya thought that those 3 Paths were 3 different Rinnegan users, when he knew that it was not like that he literally smiled on their faces and kicked their asses.

2. Pain makes a fairly explicit statement of the battle, stating that he would not have won without his secret. So yes, Jiraiya can with Pain because it is Pain who says it ... then you complain about me for going against the Manga.

3. Summons makes no difference, Jiraiya kills everyone with a kick and Cerberus dies with Yomi Numa or burns with Goemon ... let's continue with your logic: Jiraiya did not summon Bunta or another toad, when the 3 Paths were locked in the hallway he could have killed them with Gamagushi Shibari ... but he did not, I must believe that he forgot that?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Aug 4, 2018)

Lol this post



WorldsStrongest said:


> They act as tho it would impede amaterasu or enton somehow...


How many times do I have to spoonfeed you this shit? Do you think Sasuke can still use Amaterasu or Enton if he can barely see? 

Because thats exactly what the dust loud does, see Pein vs Naruto. It clogs his LOS making it almost impossible for Amaterasu to release

Tell me right now so I could immediately drop this 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Amaterasu has been fired at targets that the user hasnt had full focus on


Cool doesn't magically give them ability to use MS techniques without being able to see that's fanfic



WorldsStrongest said:


> the fact amaterasu possesses forward momentum


 You don't even know what you're talking about


*Spoiler*: __ 








If Amaterasu had forward motion the ice between Sasuke's face and hand would have been burned

It simply spawns on whatever the user looks at, it isn't pushing through shit



WorldsStrongest said:


> They just ignore that and say "smokescreen gg" again.


Dust cloud isn't even a smokescreen so wrong again


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## Blu-ray (Aug 4, 2018)

So tired of this I kept putting it off.


Hussain said:


> Also, Jman was directly stated to be stronger (or at least, on the same level as itachi.





Zero890 said:


> It is said by someone who denies that Jiraiya is> Itachi as per canon


_>"It was stated"
>"As per canon"_

People, you can't bitch about a guy calling you dishonest if you're going to flat out lie. This is The Year of our Lord 2018, not the dark ages of 2005 where potato scans translated by monkeys on a keyboard were all people had to work with. HQ VIZ scans of all 700 chapters of the Naruto manga have been pirated and available for free since 2016.

_*There is no such statement. *_This has been pointed out a million times before yet you guys keeping harping on about it.


Hussain said:


> 1- Jman Vs Obito is tricky because of how Kamui works. That not to say he will be easily defeated or anything.
> After all Konan (That Jman one-shotted) almost killed Obito.
> Also, Jman was directly stated to be stronger (or at least, on the same level as itachi. I don't feel like dealing with his fans)


Don't even try to move the goalposts. You said SM>MS as a blanket statement, and the other chap flat out said no Sage is losing to a MS user. That an MS user would struggle to beat a Sage is not the shit you were postulating. You were arguing that they'd flat out lose.



> Itachi has Susanoo, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi. Sasuke has more or less the same abilities, just instead of Tsukuyomi has Enton.
> *So, if we were to say that Jman >/= itachi*, it stands to reason that he can deal with the same jutsu from another guy. Who does not
> necessarily has the stronger (or far stronger?) version of the same jutsu.



Sasuke and Itachi have techniques outside of their MS that can make or break a battle.
They have different mentalities when it comes to battle.
They have different strengths and weaknesses.
We don't say say the bolded.
Take Yomi Numa for instance. Raiton and a flight is something that'd allow Sasuke to counter it easily while Itachi has no such options.


> 2- Asspulldara's power with MS is unknown, so there is no point bringing him up.


As if it would matter. We know what Obito's power and standing relative to Jiraiya's is and you still spouted off this nonsense.



> Furthermore, the listed characters are with their counterparts
> A) Hashirama-Asspulldara (fought, direct comparison)
> B) Jiraiya-itachi (direct comparison)
> C) Naruto-Sasuke (direct comparison)
> ...


But Sasuke _*is not*_ Jiraiya's counterpart, so even if this is what you based the whole SM>MS thing on, it is not a damn argument as far as this matchup is concerned, anymore than it would be in if the matchup was between Jiraiya and Obito.



> It makes no sense that we take all those battles and statements, and then when it comes to itachi we start creating excuses and
> babbling about retcons and other nonsense when it did not happen. His fans take whatever statement and claim that
> it's 100% accurate and there is no denying it's the truth (about Tsokyomi) and then takes any statement that they did not like
> (his statement about Jman) and start complaining about how it's not true. Recently, even Kisame's fanboys followed their example
> ...





Hussain said:


> oh, and @Blu-ray
> 
> I find it funny, that you said " It's such inane argumentation."
> When itachi's fans use the exact same argument when it suits them as well. For example,
> ...


_"But the Itachi fans do it too!"_

Hussain, miss me with this whataboutism and deflection nonsense. Does this look like an Itachi or Kisame thread to you? Do you see their names in the thread title?

Whether or not you think their fans use crappy logic is not relevant to this thread and does not absolve you of using backwards reasoning yourself.

As for the bolded, of course it's inane. You're pretending that Orochimaru and Jiraiya have no relation beyond being on the same team when the relationship between them is that _*they are stated equals. *_Y'know, the thing you claim was said about Itachi and Jiraiya? The Uchiha clan on the other hand are _*not.*_

We don't even equate EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara despite their skillsets overlapping.

I really don't want to humour that Pokémon analogy either, because people got it into their heads that Orochimaru lost because he was poor matchup for Itachi, rather than Itachi simply being out and out superior as was _actually_ portrayed. The Rock<Paper<Scissors trio is Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Tsunade, not Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Itachi.

If you say this doesn't necessarily mean he can defeat Jiraiya, then by all means go ahead. Hell you'd be right because it's A>B>C = A>C fallacious logic. But don't force a relation between the characters that doesn't exist.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Speedyamell (Aug 4, 2018)

They are in the same general level. But ms sasuke is above since is confirmed to be equal to sm naruto who's stronger than jiraiya

It'd be a difficult fight tho.. 
Sasuke's summons are hindered by yomi numa even if temporary..
Jiraiya can create openings with frog call,
And has the stamina advantage..

But..
Jmans summons are hindered by genjutsu..
Goemon sasuke can fly away from,
COR sasuke walls with higher versions of susanoo,even if it causes sasuke to bleed from the eyes & mouth,
Frog song is not coming out since one of ma & pa likely gets injured by amaterasu early,
And sasuke has good finisher moves like enton,and susanoo arrows which jman can handle for too long...
..Its a high diff win for sasuke


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## Sasuke Otsusuki (Aug 4, 2018)

in a filler Sasuke was shown to beat SM Naruto with ease, the only attack that posed a threat to sasuke(not really) was narutos rasen shuriken. naruto needed to ask kurama for help saying and i quote the translation i saw "sasukes power is awesome" 
so if sasuke stomped a perfect sage naruto i dont see why he wouldnt stomp sage mode jiraya...

naruto needed kuramas avatar and i think ksm2 to even compete with sasuke... 


here is link to the video for you to see it for yourself
gotta love sasukes plot armor

peace


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 4, 2018)

This thread in a nutshell: "I don't care what the manga says, my fave wins because I want them to"


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## Trojan (Aug 4, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> _>"It was stated"
> >"As per canon"_
> 
> People, you can't bitch about a guy calling you dishonest if you're going to flat out lie. This is The Year of our Lord 2018, not the dark ages of 2005 where potato scans translated by monkeys on a keyboard were all people had to work with. HQ VIZ scans of all 700 chapters of the Naruto manga have been pirated and available for free since 2016.
> ...



It is well known that VIZ had that statement wrong. 
I even showed takl the translation (and he is a Japanese guy, mind you) and he did not say anything about the translation.
and I am not sure why are you complaining if a Japanese guy or even other translators did not object to the translation. Heck, if you have the raws, we can still ask people to translate it.

I am not a "company" but I am sure as hell can understand Arabic text perfectly if you were to show it to me. 

I will try to get a hold of the raw and then will ask OD to translate it if it will make you feel better about it. 




Blu-ray said:


> Don't even try to move the goalposts. You said SM>MS as a blanket statement, and the other chap flat out said no Sage is losing to a MS user. That an MS user would struggle to beat a Sage is not the shit you were postulating. You were arguing that they'd flat out lose



SM Jman can do that with Sound based moves imo as we have seen how effective they are. 



Blu-ray said:


> Sasuke and Itachi have techniques outside of their MS that can make or break a battle.
> They have different mentalities when it comes to battle.
> They have different strengths and weaknesses.
> We don't say say the bolded.
> Take Yomi Numa for instance. Raiton and a flight is something that'd allow Sasuke to counter it easily while Itachi has no such options.



1- Barely anything is a deal breaker. Sasuke has Kirin, but that almost 100% guaranteed to never see the light because of its ridiculous preparation.
2- They do, but their overall power is still relatively the same. And since itachi is considered to be the smarter one out of the 2, having Jman being stronger than him means Sasuke's chances in this department will be even lower.

3- Ever since Sasuke got MS he kept spamming the living shit out of its jutsu (Susanoo & Amaterasu). Those differences that you are talking about are mostly trivial. Like are you going to nitpick that "Will itachi might be a little faster than Sasuke" or "Sasuke has a little more chakra than itachi" and make it like it will be the deal breaker in this battle? 

meh, I highly doubt it. Yomi Numa by a drugged Base Jiraiya was almost as big as a Boss Summon and it was called a "small" one.
I am not sure if you think a simple Chidori from Sasuke will "destroy" a huge ass swamp. As yes "lightning > earth" but the jutsu have to be on the same level for this logic to work.


And aside from that, Yomi Numa is not even the big deal here. The "Real" big deal is Frog Call & Frog Song which we saw BOTH Edo itachi & EMS Sasuke struggling against in their fight against Kabuto.



Blu-ray said:


> As if it would matter. We know what Obito's power and standing relative to Jiraiya's is and you still spouted off this nonsense.


How do you know that?

Before it happened, have you even CONSIDERED the possibility that freaking Konan will drive Obito to the extent she did? Yeah, I did not think so either. 

And regardless of that, literally everyone agree that Obito's abilitiy (Kamui) is one of the most broken jutsu in the manga (if not the most broken one) and most people have it over the Rinnegan. So, yes, it does matter if we don't know MS Asspulldara's level because his jutsu is far less broken than Obito. The only thing he has (that we know off) is Susanoo.

We have seen underground attack bypass that (which Jiriaya has)
and we have seen Sound bypass it as well (which Jiraiya has)

knowing how strong EMS Asspulldara tells us nothing about how strong his MS self is.
unless you are going to tell that you think EMS Sasuke with PS (who fought JJ Obito) is somehow comparable to MS Sasuke who fought Danzo!




Blu-ray said:


> But Sasuke _*is not*_ Jiraiya's counterpart, so even if this is what you based the whole SM>MS thing on, it is not a damn argument as far as this matchup is concerned, anymore than it would be in if the matchup was between Jiraiya and Obito.



indeed, he is not. But itachi is, and their abilities are extremely similar.

If we were told that X is stronger than Hizashi for example, it's perfectly rational to expect him to be stronger than Hiashi.
Since both Hizashi & Hiashi have extremely similar abilities, and if you can counter the first one, then you can counter the second one.

And if we were told that Y is stronger than Shikaku (I think that's his name?) then we can conclude that he is also stronger than Shikamaru.

and even though you are bringing some "differences" between Sasuke and itachi, I don't think you can deny that Sasuke's fighting
style changed 180 when he got the MS. He was not fighting like how he would fight before that (Hebi/Taka Sasuke). And again, even then most those other jutsu can barely make a difference, like are you going to tell me Chidori Senbon (for example) will be a game changer?

If anything, itachi's abilities with Genjutsu would make him tougher than Sasuke against Jiraiya, frankly. 



Blu-ray said:


> Hussain, miss me with this whataboutism and deflection nonsense. Does this look like an Itachi or Kisame thread to you? Do you see their names in the thread title?
> 
> Whether or not you think their fans use crappy logic is not relevant to this thread and does not absolve you of using backwards reasoning yourself.


I am just saying. 

because that literally the only argument itachi's fanboys have. So, crushing that leaves them with nothing. 



Blu-ray said:


> As for the bolded, of course it's inane. You're pretending that Orochimaru and Jiraiya have no relation beyond being on the same team when the relationship between them is that _*they are stated equals. *_Y'know, the thing you claim was said about Itachi and Jiraiya? The Uchiha clan on the other hand are _*not.*_



Barely.

The only thing about them is a vague fight where Jman wanted to bring Oro back. a Fight that happened 25-30 years ago or so.
Jiraiya did not even have SM back then, which is a HUGE deal. Of course you can argue "Oro did not have ET either" but if we were
to include ET, then Oro is also stronger than the uchiha. 

And based on this as well, then Sakura also stated that "I caught up to those 2" KCM Naruto/EMS Sasuke.
I wonder how many are there who will state "If you defeat Sakura, then you defeat Naruto/Sasuke" 



Blu-ray said:


> We don't even equate EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara despite their skillsets overlapping.


the only thing that prevent some people of doing that is the fact that EMS Sasuke had literally ONE attack using his PS.
Heck, some people still going around claiming EMS Sasuke does not have PS!! 

This fact prevented Sasuke from getting more feats with his PS. Meanwhile, we have seen him with MS from start to finigh.



Blu-ray said:


> But don't force a relation between the characters that doesn't exist.


I am not forcing thing. The relation DOES exist.

We DO have a relationship made between Jman & itachi (the one that itachi's fans are desperate to disprove after more than a decade)
we DO have a relationship made between Oro & itachi
we DO have a relationship between Oro and Jman.

Whenever I get the time, I will try to find the translation for that famous statement and will try to get OD to translate it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 5, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> So what? Having the elemental advantage does not mean that Sasuke automatically cancels Yomi Numa


It means hes not getting fucking encased in jack shit when he can retort with his own A-Ranked Raiton technique kid

He doesnt need to negate the entire thing, just the parts that have him encased

And as stated, he can also fucking FLY and will see Jmans technique PREEMPTIVELY

Yet you didnt address that shit

Not exactly surprised


Zero890 said:


> If he can not see where Jiraiya is, he will not know where to throw Amaterasu


Youre a straight up moron if EITHER of you believe this makes a fucking difference


Serene Grace said:


> How many times do I have to spoonfeed you this shit? Do you think Sasuke can still use Amaterasu or Enton if he can barely see?


You can repeat your "shit" as much as fucking want it doesnt make you any more correct 

Jman makes a cloud of ANYTHING to hide in,  ...And itachi, who is outright stated to be < Sasuek in terms of Amaterasu, 

Making his inability to pinpoint Jman irrelevant



Certainly not consistent

 They are large enough to cover the entire FKS venue which was massive, and powerful enough to cut clean through stone pillars several meters thick without even directly tagging them with a blade..."Dustclouds" get bitched for sure unless youre blind.


Zero890 said:


> 1. Jiraiya thought that those 3 Paths were 3 different Rinnegan users


No he didnt 

, and continues to do so, and he notes Preta paths single ability as his largest challenge.

...He doesnt ever believe for one second hes up against 3 bonafide wielders of the goddamn eyes of God...Wake up

You are not gonna find anything in this manga that states hes worried about all of them pulling out Chibaku Tensei

But if youre delusional enough to think that in the first place, i doubt im gonna convince you otherwise.


Zero890 said:


> 2. Pain makes a fairly explicit statement of the battle


>Explicit statement
>

Fucking pick one 


Zero890 said:


> Jiraiya can with Pain because it is Pain who says it




Not to mention Pains later fucking feats against a   who  with said  and pain 

Jesus this is too easy 

You guys hide behind a blanket of author intent while ignoring the fact the blanket is fucking on fire 

That tends to happen when you only acknowledge the manga up to chapter 380 and totally ignore everything that happened after that


Zero890 said:


> then you complain about me for going against the Manga.


Because you blatanly fucking do

And do so with headcanon nonethe-fucking-less

And the fact a few of your fellow misinformed Jman bros agree with you doesnt mean shit

You are all legit the blind leading the blind at this point


Zero890 said:


> 3. Summons makes no difference, Jiraiya kills everyone with a kick and Cerberus dies with Yomi Numa or burns with Goemon


Jesus fucking Christ the headcanon 



Ningendo > Cerberus confirmed?   

Goemon is doing nothing but making more Ceberus clones unless you think its more effective than fucking FRS or on Amaterasus level...

And Yomi Numa?



Its like you dont understand this manga at all

Oh wait...You dont...


Serene Grace said:


> Cool doesn't magically give them ability to use MS techniques without being able to see that's fanfic


This kid HAS to be on the good shit right now 

, , ......    ...S...Vision that gets worse and worse every second...

But this fucking kid is arguing a little bit of DUST is stopping them from using MS?

Wow

Take the LARGEST of Ls kiddo

And my lols while your at it


Serene Grace said:


> You don't even know what you're talking about


No dude

Thats abundantly fucking clear to be you at this point



You clearly see the flames moving forwards after manifesting if the user so requires it to


Serene Grace said:


> If Amaterasu had forward motion the ice between Sasuke's face and hand would have been burned


If it didnt have forward momentum it wouldnt have forward momentum in the scans where its shown to have forward momentum


Serene Grace said:


> Dust cloud isn't even a smokescreen so wrong again


Your use of emojis to cover up a flawed point, and a point SHOWN TO BE FLAWED SEVERAL TIMES in the past is cute

But doesnt change the fact youre wrong whatsoever

Whether its a dustcloud, a smokecloud or a fucking fartcloud doesnt fucking matter. Sasuke or ANY Amaterasu user simply comensates by lighting teh entire fucking thing up

Doesnt matter where Jman hides in an obstruction if the entire fucking obstruction is caught on black flames

And every Ama user has the feats to put Jmans LoS blocker AoE to shame, and theres no fucking way hes escaping the AoE before Ama tags him considering it almost tagged V2 A

Id ask you to try harder, but i think this is genuinely your A-Game regarding Jman 

*Youre better than this Grace*...Thats the worst fucking part about this thing. Youre just letting bias into your post to a point you actually start making shit up...And ignoring the fact that youve been objectively proven wrong...

If this was ANYBODY but Jman i feel like youd listen.

But youre not


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Aug 5, 2018)

Oh no @Serene Grace rated me "optimistic" again

Lets see him retort with more nonsense on how dust in your eye > your eyes being fucking SEALED AWAY in terms of a hindrance to sight 

Or not actually having eyes in your head at all


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## Serene Grace (Aug 5, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This kid HAS to be on the good shit right now
> 
> , , ......    ...S...Vision that gets worse and worse every second...
> 
> But this fucking kid is arguing a little bit of DUST is stopping them from using MS?


1. I ain't no kid, I'm the same age as you 

2.

Irrelevant ass scans

Stop being a smartass.You damn well knew I meant shit that actually requires the opponent to be in the user's LOS 

Sasuke, Itachi or any Uchiha can't use Amaterasu without being able to see, you don't even need the manga to tell you that 

Prove me wrong



WorldsStrongest said:


> No dude
> 
> Thats abundantly fucking clear to be you at this point
> 
> ...


Not sure if serious or trolling me but we can clearly see Itachi moving his Amaterasu 

Unless the user actively moves it there is no forward momentum attached to the jutsu



WorldsStrongest said:


> If it didnt have forward momentum it wouldnt have forward momentum in the scans where its shown to have forward momentum


You used an example where the Uchiha was literally dragging his flames towards his target 

You also can't just ignore my example that absolutely dumps on your theory. If Amaterasu itself truly has forward momentum  the ice between Sasuke's face and hand would have burned. BUT it didn't. All it did was land on the exact spot that Sasuke looked at


WorldsStrongest said:


> But doesnt change the fact youre wrong whatsoever
> 
> Whether its a dustcloud, a smokecloud or a fucking fartcloud doesnt fucking matter. Sasuke or ANY Amaterasu user simply comensates by lighting teh entire fucking thing up
> 
> ...




Irrelevant when we take into consideration that Sasuke won't even be able to see therefore Enton and Amateraus in that moment is useless. 

Also good luck lighting up an entire Dust cloud that dwarfed a bjuii sized summoning

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 5, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> 1. I ain't no kid


You sure read like one when you want to 


Serene Grace said:


> 2.
> 
> Irrelevant ass scans


Concession accepted than kid


Serene Grace said:


> Sasuke, Itachi or any Uchiha can't use Amaterasu without being able to see


This is bullshit 

Because MS techniques have been used by straight up blind or damn near blind people plenty of fucking timesin this manga

Also, if youre arguing that Enton or Amaterasu need a living target to be employed, miss me with that shit.

You yourself posted a scan of Sauce hitting fucking Ice with it

If the user so fucking desores, he can light up inanimate objects just fine. Like for example, a goddamn dustcloud


Serene Grace said:


> Not sure if serious or trolling me but we can clearly see Itachi moving his Amaterasu


To the RIGHT

The flames then go fucking FORWARD and perpendicular to his target hes "dragging" the flames to...Hence forward fucking momentum

Not RIGHT

Open dem peepers bud


Serene Grace said:


> You also can't just ignore my example that absolutely dumps on your theory.


Except it doesnt


WorldsStrongest said:


> the flames moving forwards after manifesting *if the user so requires it to*


Ama manifests where the user intends it to within its effective range (IE, on the surface of a smoke cloud or on a person) but in the event it doesnt LAND ON THE TARGET IT CONTINUES FORWARD

Not a hard concept


Serene Grace said:


> Irrelevant when we take into consideration that Sasuke won't even be able to see therefore Enton and Amateraus in that moment is useless.


Miss me AGAIN


WorldsStrongest said:


> , , ......    ...S...Vision that gets worse and worse every second...
> 
> But this fucking kid is arguing a little bit of DUST is stopping them from using MS?





Serene Grace said:


> Also good luck lighting up an entire Dust cloud that dwarfed a bjuii sized summoning


Except Sasuke has feats of tagging Biju sized targets and covering their ass in Amaterasu 

Also lol at "dwarfed a biju size summon"



Guess when you claimed my earlier scans were "irrelevant" you didnt actually fucking read them cuz i also said Sauce can easily disperse any given LOS obstruction nigh instantly whenever the fuck he wants

Of course youd know that if you, ya know, actually read what youre  replying to and tried to debate like a reasonable person


WorldsStrongest said:


> They are large enough to cover the entire FKS venue which was massive, and powerful enough to cut clean through stone pillars several meters thick without even directly tagging them with a blade..."Dustclouds" get bitched for sure unless youre blind.



This is why debating with the Jman camp is fucking pointless...You see what you wanna see and never whats actually being said

Also lol at the fact you think Shima is fucking fast enough to leap several dozen feet in the air (when A moved maybe 12 inches) in response to an Amaterasu she doesnt even have knowledge on (when A did have knowledge) and then shes gonna weave handsigns, and blow a dust cloud and WAIT FOR IT TO ACCUMULATE before Ama tags her or Jman...

Take

All

Of

The

Fucking

Lols


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## Braiyan (Aug 5, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah...Jman fans seem to think dust and smoke function as a forcefield for some reason
> 
> They act as tho it would impede amaterasu or enton somehow...Then when its pointed out to them that Amaterasu has been fired at targets that the user hasnt had full focus on, and the fact amaterasu possesses forward momentum and will push through the smoke regardless...They just ignore that and say "smokescreen gg" again.



I'm not even arguing that Sasuke can target Jiraiya through the cloud, just that it doesn't stop him from using Amaterasu. Sure he's more likely to miss Jiraiya in a dust cloud, but that doesn't mean he can't just choose to set the ground around him on fire instead. Or the buildings next to him. Or trace a line of fire around the cloud ala Itachi. Even if he can't hit him directly he still makes it easier to hit him with Enton the next time by limiting his escape routes. I mean, these same dust clouds didn't stop Pain from seeing Gamabunta attempt to ambush him from nowhere, yet I'm supposed to believe it completely shuts down Amaterasu?



> It also wasnt anywhere near pains full power that Jman pulled it off against
> 
> He fought 3 paths and barely managed to get it off
> 
> ...



In fact, considering that we learnt that Nagato can also see through his summons' eyes, it's strange how he had Animal Path in that corridor at all, trying to engage Jiraiya there instead of a summon (like the centipede which could've just came up from underground). And Human Path's abilities were either not decided upon yet or it's PIS, because that time he caught Jiraiya's fist should've been when he tried to take his soul.


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## Zero890 (Aug 5, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> It means hes not getting fucking encased in jack shit when he can retort with his own A-Ranked Raiton technique kid
> 
> He doesnt need to negate the entire thing, just the parts that have him encased
> 
> ...



Yomi Numa is also A-rank, that does not even represent the power of the Jutsu lol, it represents the difficulty to learn it.

He will not fly anywhere without even knowing that Yomi Numa appears on his feet.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Youre a straight up moron if EITHER of you believe this makes a fucking difference



Sasuke needs to point his opponent with his eyes ... if he does not see him then he can not hit him 



WorldsStrongest said:


> No he didnt
> 
> , and continues to do so, and he notes Preta paths single ability as his largest challenge.
> 
> ...



He was not sure they had a single skill What are you talking about?


*Spoiler*: __ 








Then when he was sure they have only one skill and they have the same eyes he defeated them without any problem


*Spoiler*: __ 









Hell he even doubted his theory again when the six Paths appeared.


*Spoiler*: __ 








So yes, he thought there were several Rinnegan users.



WorldsStrongest said:


> >Explicit statement
> >
> 
> Fucking pick one



Probably is the adverb that represents more possibilities, if the arrogant Pain says it then believe him.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Not to mention Pains later fucking feats against a   who  with said  and pain
> 
> Jesus this is too easy
> 
> ...



He said that under a fucking assumption 


 To deny Pain's statement you would also have to ignore the conditions in which he faced Pain with ALL HIS POWER:
1. without an arm.

2. with half the knowledge

3. Pain with all the knowledge about him.

hell even those conditions he defeated the second strongest Path and eluded them all without Pain seeing him...Give him an arm and Frog Song and bye bye Pain ... I'm not the one who say it, Pain says it.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Because you blatanly fucking do
> 
> And do so with headcanon nonethe-fucking-less
> 
> ...



hypocrite describes you perfectly.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Jesus fucking Christ the headcanon
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then you forget when he destroyed one of his Summons with a kick?


*Spoiler*: __ 








At no time did I say that Goemon is at the level of Amaterasu or FRS however Cerberus is defeated by that. Do you forget that Goemon is a sea of oil that stays attached to the body, constantly burning it? Cerberus will receive the same treatment he received with Amaterasu.

Oh then the problems are solved summoned in your direction .. well then Jiraiya tears it up with SM Ranjishigami

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 5, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Yomi Numa is also A-rank


Which denotes it at a similar level of standing as Chidori

And chidori has elemental advantage

I sincerely cannot believe im currently spoon feeding you the fucking Naruto equivalent of rock paper scissors this late in the game...

And you think you have a clue how to debate 


Zero890 said:


> He will not fly anywhere without even knowing that Yomi Numa appears on his feet.


Hey look

You dont know how to read

Cuz i said like 4 fucking times now Sasuke can predict Jmans technique and be ready for it

As he has feats of deducing a techniques associated element based on Hand signs alone

He can prep Chidori to counter the coming Doton tech, then nullify the swamp in his immediate vicinity and then fucking fly out of it. Or use snakes to pull him out really 

Really not a hard concept


Zero890 said:


> Sasuke needs to point his opponent with his eyes ... if he does not see him then he can not hit him


Im not repeating myself ad nauseum

Already explained why your opinion is bullshit on this matter (as per usual)

Not reposting it just because you regurgitate your opinion and dont address my point at all

This is straight up childish


Zero890 said:


> He was not sure they had a single skill What are you talking about?


He outright fucking states hes noticed Animal path using only a single ability and that he straight up doesnt buy that multiple true rinnegan users exist

Try reading the pages intended for a 13 year old again

Maybe itll stick this time


Zero890 said:


> So yes, he thought there were several Rinnegan users.


No he didnt

You restating this doesnt make you right 


Zero890 said:


> Probably is the adverb that represents more possibilities, if the arrogant Pain says it


Pain isnt arrogant

He employs candor

Theres a difference

He outright states when an opponent he is facing is powerful and has pressured him

He did so against Kakashi, Jman, and Naruto

But when he says "probably" he means fucking probably

And his later feats against Naruto mean NJman doesnt have a fucking prayer

Wake up seriously 

When someone who is superior to Jman in every way faces a NERFED Pain while said Jman superior has all of Jmans knowledge and then some on Pain, and they LOSE, ythat does this amazing thing called invaldate earlier speculation that Jman can accomplish fuck all against Pain.

Im sorry but it just does...Might hurt you to admit it, but your boy aint shit to Pain. Point blank.

Pain also slaps KN6, which is stronger than the guy who is STRONGER THAN JMAN.

Pain with KI>Pain without KI>KN6>SM Naruto>SM Jman

But go the fuck ahead and dishonestly cite author intent to claim otherwise while ignoring the fact the author slapped you across the face with the above facts 

Proving once again you dont know how to debate 


Zero890 said:


> He said that under a fucking assumption


The assumption being teh paths had singel abilities

He formed such an assumption before he even entered SM

He also further states outright that he doesnt believe there to be several true rinnegan users

Again, restating your opinion doesnt invalidate on panel statements.



Zero890 said:


> To deny Pain's statement you would also have to ignore the conditions in which he faced Pain with ALL HIS POWER:
> 1. without an arm.
> 
> 2. with half the knowledge


And got bodied 

And conversely, to take PAins statement SERIOUSLY you need to ignore teh conditions in which Pain defeated SM and/or KN6 Naruto


Naruto is stated to be Jmans superio
Naruto has all of the knowledge Pain gathered on Jman and more considering what the Konoha nin such as Kakashi managed to deduce post Jmans death.
Naruto starts the battle with SM prepped, Sm batteries prepped, every toad summon he has on teh field, and opens with an ambush against Pain.
Pain soloed an entire hidden village waiting for Narutos arrival and nuked it, upon narutos arrival, Pains strongest abilities are restricted for an exteneded period of teh battle.
Pain is actively trying to not kill Naruto the entire battle.
Pain still puts Naruto in his fucking place in SM
And Pain also puts naruto in his place while in KN6 and states he was capable of restraininbg KN8 if he had to
YOU ALSO NEED TO IGNORE TEH FACT THAT HE SAID JMAN COULD "PROBABLY" DO SOMETHING TO HIM HE DOESNT EVEN STATE IT DEFINITEVELY
For the love of all that is good and holy, pull your head out of your ass, stop wanking the shit out of Jman, and apply contextual understanding of this work of fiction if you choose to continue debating...

Cuz this shit is getting sad now


Zero890 said:


> 3. Pain with all the knowledge about him.


Knowledge Pain earned as they fought

No fault of Pains that all it took to bait out Jmans entire fucking arsenal was 50% AT BEST of his true power

Dont think you fathom that this is a major point AGAINST Jman and not one FOR him...


Zero890 said:


> hell even those conditions he defeated the second strongest Path and eluded them all without Pain seeing him


Look at you ignoring the fact he suffered a serious injury and needed to run away yet again in the process to accomplish such a feat regardless


Zero890 said:


> hypocrite describes you perfectly.


Coming from probably the most blind and biased kid on here this doesnt mean anything

Also, this is the definition of the pot calling teh fucking kettle black

Given how hard youre ignoring Canon statements to put Jman over his STATED AND SHOWN BETTER in this VERY THREAD

Not to mention i dont even think you can fucking SPELL the word "context" given you clearly have no idea what it is or you would have used it ONCE by now.


Zero890 said:


> Then you forget when he destroyed one of his Summons with a kick?


This kid is actually gonna try and tell me that shit was a kick when we outright see an explosion occur OFF PANEL and we later see Jman FAIL to kill fucking Ningendo with a direct kick.

Asinine...Truly asinine.

Youre pushing Ningendo >  A boss summon

Wake up


Zero890 said:


> At no time did I say that Goemon is at the level of Amaterasu or FRS


You do literally 2 seconds after writing this in your post


Zero890 said:


> however Cerberus is defeated by that


Like...I dont even have to fucking reply anymore

You debunk and embarrass YOURSELF in the same sentence you try to make a goddamn point

You are doing my work FOR ME


Zero890 said:


> however Cerberus is defeated by that. Do you forget that Goemon is a sea of oil that stays attached to the body, constantly burning it? Cerberus will receive the same treatment he received with Amaterasu.


See?

Look at this shit 

Right here you directly state Goemon is replicating what Amaterasu did and thereby OUTPERFORMING FRS

And not 2 seconds prior you said you didnt hold Goemeon at the level of FRS or amaterasu...

Sad 


Zero890 said:


> Oh then the problems are solved summoned in your direction .. well then Jiraiya tears it up with SM Ranjishigami


Yes because Jman is gonna be capable of immediately processing instant fucking teleportation and the fact several giant Kaiju just vanished from his own technique before his very fucking eyes

I forgot he was omniscient

Pardon me

Like seriously dude gtfo 

This is straight up embarrassing at this point

You are now honestly fucking saying LIONS MANE > FRS OR AMATERASU

HOW THE FUCK CAN ANYONE TAKE THIS MAN SERIOUSLY?

How?

Actually how Jman camp?

I need to know 

This post alone just quintupled the cancer in this thread

And there was A LOT to begin with believe you me

This thread is literally an entire faction of posters all selectively choosing which canon statements to believe...And getting away with it somehow

Im honestly floored


Zero890 said:


> I read Naruto


Through these at best


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## Zero890 (Aug 6, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Which denotes it at a similar level of standing as Chidori
> 
> And chidori has elemental advantage
> 
> ...



So you're telling me that a simple Chidori is going to annul an SM yomi Numa just because it has the elemental advantage? the Jutsus are not in the same level, it is there where Chidori would take advantage but it is not like that, SM Jiraiya surpasses by far in scale to a simple Chidori.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Hey look
> 
> You dont know how to read
> 
> ...



Yomi Numa does not require hand seals and although it requires, its hand seal is not earth element.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Im not repeating myself ad nauseum
> 
> Already explained why your opinion is bullshit on this matter (as per usual)
> 
> ...



Of course a Jutsu that requires the vision worked without it 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Pain isnt arrogant
> 
> He employs candor
> 
> ...



And do you still want to deny Pain's claim? Jesus, accept it, if you are not willing to do it then do not call me hypocritical when you are.

> KN6 is not stronger than SM Naruto does not know where you get that shit.



WorldsStrongest said:


> The assumption being teh paths had singel abilities
> 
> He formed such an assumption before he even entered SM
> 
> ...



God I show you several fucking panels where he mentions that there are several Rinnegan users.

When he had the certainty that they only have one skill, he defeated them.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And got bodied
> 
> And conversely, to take PAins statement SERIOUSLY you need to ignore teh conditions in which Pain defeated SM and/or KN6 Naruto
> 
> ...



You also have to ignore that:

1. A superior Sage with disadvantages that Jiraiya does not possess.

2. Naruto had trained for several days in a row without rest.

3.  Pain knew about Frog Song, the Jutsu that literally one shots him.

4. Naruto wanted to speak directly with Nagato.

5. And at the end of the day it's Pain who says that Jiraiya can defeat him.

Again, it's not me who is against the Manga, it's you ... but then you complain that I'm the one who does it.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Knowledge Pain earned as they fought
> 
> No fault of Pains that all it took to bait out Jmans entire fucking arsenal was 50% AT BEST of his true power
> 
> Dont think you fathom that this is a major point AGAINST Jman and not one FOR him...



He literally knew Jiraiya's fighting style ... hell even knew several of his Jutsus and Jiraiya says "being my student, he knows my weak points".

50% power lol, he needs all of his fucking Paths and even then he could not defeat Jiraiya without an arm without first losing one Path...



WorldsStrongest said:


> Look at you ignoring the fact he suffered a serious injury and needed to run away yet again in the process to accomplish such a feat regardless



His conditions were terrible, Pain had all the fucking advantage, leaving without a wound in those conditions is difficult and you want to minimize that feat saying that he was injured in the process?

Ohh god, Well it seems that your hate towards Jiraiya has been increasing quite a lot.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Coming from probably the most blind and biased kid on here this doesnt mean anything
> 
> Also, this is the definition of the pot calling teh fucking kettle black
> 
> ...



You are the person who:

1. complained that i was against the Manga-> I give affirmations of the Manga but it's the same shit, you call me a hypocrite.

2. I am a hypocrite, the person who complained because I said that Jiraiya could react to A4 ... surprise an hour later you publish things like Nagato without literally any remarkable feat of speed could react to V2 A4 + Onoki ... but I am the hypocrite.



WorldsStrongest said:


> This kid is actually gonna try and tell me that shit was a kick when we outright see an explosion occur OFF PANEL and we later see Jman FAIL to kill fucking Ningendo with a direct kick.
> 
> Asinine...Truly asinine.
> 
> ...



He did it @ATastyMuffin explain it very good.



WorldsStrongest said:


> See?
> 
> Look at this shit
> 
> ...



Ohh god Your interpretation is crap. Goemon can defeat Cerberus due to its fucking properties, that does not mean that it is at the level of FRS or Amaterasu.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes because Jman is gonna be capable of immediately processing instant fucking teleportation and the fact several giant Kaiju just vanished from his own technique before his very fucking eyes
> 
> I forgot he was omniscient
> 
> ...



The only thing you do is complain about jman wank, your hate is surprising at this point. Hirudora did not kill Kisame but his sharks did it only leaving blood ... then that means that Kisame's sharks >>>> Hirudora? What absurd logic.

Reactions: Like 2


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## KBD (Aug 6, 2018)

Sasuke was a complete noob with his abilities at the FKS.  He needed to have a try with the trainingwheels on with Tobi looking after him.

Put that together with J-Man and starting in SM and it's going to be a difficult fight for the Sauce. 

He could evolve up to use his powers to a better extent, but if the intention of specifying FKS is to restrict him from the feats he had in the Danzo fight then Jiraiya takes it.


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## Blu-ray (Aug 7, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> I have and I stick to my decision, SM Jiraiya > MS Sasuke. You can deny it all you want, I certainly don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> Hypocrite say what? Troll leading the trolls. Carry on denying the Manga. SM Jiraiya > MS Sasuke any day. Stay in denial.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's fine, but you'd have to deal with the fact you basically have to ignore a lot of things to make that stick.





Mori Jin said:


> Nah I ain't ignoring anything.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you think Jiriaya wins, then obviously you are.





Mori Jin said:


> Nah trust me I ain't. Obviously a uchiha Stan would think that, so who cares.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You think Jiraiya wins, of course you didn't read the manga.





Mori Jin said:


> And that's you're irrelevant opinion, which I don't care about at all. SM Jiraiya > MS Sasuke. Go cry to someone else about it.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> MS Sasuke > Jiraiya though. You're still ignoring facts, its fine if you want to ignore the facts but you'd need to cope with being wrong. Apparently you aren't coping well with being wrong.





Mori Jin said:


> Of course an Uchiha fanboy would call uchiha wanking facts. Can't get anymore retarded than that.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Now I'm a Uchiha fanboy?
> 
> You're not even a fanboy, you're just a manga denalist. You can't even come up with a good argument for Jiraiya apart from "yes, we agree Jiraiya wins". Like our man, @Shazam you probably ignore all the arguments against your fanon arguments.


_"Jiraiya's stronger! No Sasuke! You haven't read the manga. No *you* haven't read the manga! Fucking Uchiha fanboy!"_
I can just feel my braincells succumbing to carcinogenesis.

Enough of this juvenile bullshit. Debate as if you aren't 9 year olds or not at all. This goes for the rest of the thread as well. You can do without calling each other morons, hypocrites, true as it may be _some_ cases, and all the other flavours of ad hominem.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 7, 2018)

I havent seen any counter on Jiraiya's part regarding Amaterasu. As far as we know, it spawns on the target and requires immense speed to block. Jiraiya has neither the jutsu erecting speed or footspeed to overpower the velocity of the Amaterasu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2018)

The Jiraiya arguments are weak. 

Yomi Numa: how is Jiraiya going to be sinking Sasuke when Susanoo's chakra goes underground i.e. the user won't be touched by Yomi Numa. 



To make the Yomi Numa nonsense stick you need to also pretend Susanoo never used jutsu like the meteorite or Enton.



Either through Susanoo or himself Sasuke literally has a jutsu called Chidori Nagashi which makes Yomi Numa irrelevant, in case anyone forgot. 



Frog Song, now tell me you think Jiraiya can remain hidden when Sasuke has snakes and hawks which can help him locate him. Not to mention a Susanoo, with Enton arrows if Sasuke wanted, which can break the sound barrier. 

Frog call, A Susanoo can be formed in the last minute. Even a Rib Cage Susanoo can tank most of Jiraiya's attacks. 

What about when Sasuke begins spamming Raiton, Katon and Enton... 

The Jiraiya arguments would hold more water if the posters stopped pretending this is Itachi.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 7, 2018)

Jiriaya of the Legendary Sannin

The only person in this entire work of fiction capable of straight up blocking attacks with nothing but portrayal as his shield 

Cuz lord knows he doesnt have the feats or the jutsu

Reactions: Like 1


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## jonnty6 (Aug 7, 2018)

Lol ya'll went ham in here 

Honestly, given on what I saw and thanks to some scans shown here which refreshed my memory I gotta go with Sasuke on this one. He seems to have a counter for practically whatever Jiraiya can muster but I will say I don't think it will be easy.


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## Shazam (Aug 7, 2018)

Jman wins against FKS Sasuke. Fight takes place in Konoha. I have no reason to believe Jman couldn't prep frog song.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Jman wins against FKS Sasuke. Fight takes place in Konoha. I have no reason to believe Jman couldn't prep frog song.



Ignoring a bunch of scans, of course you can conclude that. 

Its not like the frog song makes the user easy to find or anything, or that there's chakra literally giving away their location.


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## Shazam (Aug 7, 2018)

I still think that Jiraiya can counter a lot in Sasuke's arsenal and has a decent chance at winning, Sasuke has a good chance too though, however.

Jiraiya stops Sasuke's Katon with his various assortment of Katons, Katon: Dai Endan and Katon Gamayu Endan for Sasuke's Gokakyu. With oil, Jiraiya's Katon overwhelms Sasuke's. He uses an Odama Rasengan to take the blunt of Sasuke's Chidori and He dodges Sasuke's Amaterasu with SM sensing.

As for general tactics, Jiraiya uses Kekkai: Tengai Hojin to make sure he doesn't get blindsided by Sasuke, Sasuke is fast. He uses Senpo: Goemon to keep Sasuke and Sasuke's attacks at bay, Amaterasu is a counter to that though.

For Susano'o, Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa. A drugged Jiraiya with hampered Chakra control was able to use Yomi Numa to stop Manda. Jiraiya had excellent Chakra control, he had 5 of Pein's rods inside of him (which disrupt Chakra) and he was still able to use and mold Chakra. Imagine what a Yomi Numa by an un-gimped Jiraiya backed with Senjutsu could do.

Genjutsu is Jiraiya's problem, even if hit by it from afar he could get blitzed by Sasuke before Ma and Pa break him out of it. While Amaterasu could be dodged by Jiraiya, if Sasuke casts it in close range then he gets burnt to a crisp.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2018)

Shazam said:


> I still think that Jiraiya can counter a lot in Sasuke's arsenal and has a decent chance at winning, Sasuke has a good chance too though, however.



Ignoring Enton, Raiton and everything Sasuke has. 



> Jiraiya stops Sasuke's Katon with his various assortment of Katons, Katon: Dai Endan and Katon Gamayu Endan for Sasuke's Gokakyu. With oil, Jiraiya's Katon overwhelms Sasuke's. He uses an Odama Rasengan to take the blunt of Sasuke's Chidori and He dodges Sasuke's Amaterasu with SM sensing.



Sasuke has a Katon which can change the weather and all those Katon you cited can be trolled by Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi. Chidori lance can be used troll Jiraiya's Odama Rasengan.  SM sensing to dodge Amaterasu, because Jiraiya can dodge Amaterasu while Kagutsuchi to extend his reach. 



> As for general tactics, Jiraiya uses Kekkai: Tengai Hojin to make sure he doesn't get blindsided by Sasuke, Sasuke is fast. He uses Senpo: Goemon to keep Sasuke and Sasuke's attacks at bay, Amaterasu is a counter to that though.



Won't help him when Sasuke can predict Jiraiya's movements. Senpo: Goemon... do you remember what Amaterasu does--- Oh you think Enton = Katon. 



> For Susano'o, Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa. A drugged Jiraiya with hampered Chakra control was able to use Yomi Numa to stop Manda. Jiraiya had excellent Chakra control, he had 5 of Pein's rods inside of him (which disrupt Chakra) and he was still able to use and mold Chakra. Imagine what a Yomi Numa by an un-gimped Jiraiya backed with Senjutsu could do.



You mean Jiraiya can use Yomi Numa well because when he got stabbed with 5 rods he can form chakra on his finger. :Lmao
Now Yomi Numa stopped Manda?!  We saw what Jiraiya could do with Senjutsu Yomi Numa, Human Realm wasn't submerged. 



> Genjutsu is Jiraiya's problem, even if hit by it from afar he could get blitzed by Sasuke before Ma and Pa break him out of it. While Amaterasu could be dodged by Jiraiya, if Sasuke casts it in close range then he gets burnt to a crisp.



Because Sasuke doesn't have Susanoo and Kagutsuchi, or use Chidori Nagashi to stun them. 

At least pretend you're not being bias.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 7, 2018)

Ive addressed literally all of these points like 5 times in this thread alone 



Shazam said:


> He dodges Sasuke's Amaterasu with SM sensing.


This is a really flawed point

Even if you could prove Jman has sensing, which you cant, but lets say he does

The Raikages are on par with if not superior to SM users in reflexes and A is VASTLY superior in straight up physical speed and he barely dodged Ama with V2 while he was anticipating it let alone if it caught him off guard...

WA SM Naruto, who is SUPERIOR TO JMAN BY A MILE, barely dodged V1 3A...Just for a comparison

V2 A4>=Amaterasu>V1 A4>V1 A3>=<WA SM Naruto>Pre War SM Naruto>SM Jman

Arguing for Jman to make a decent counter to Amaterasu that he doesnt know to expect,  in the hands of a BETTER SAGE, is, quite frankly, real fucking dumb


Shazam said:


> Jiraiya stops Sasuke's Katon with his various assortment of Katons


Enton or Amaterasu> Any other Katon by fucking default

Doesnt matter that Sasukes Katons lose, he barely relies on them anyway and can bitch Jmans fire whenever he feels the need with black flames


Shazam said:


> He uses an Odama Rasengan to take the blunt of Sasuke's Chidori


Odama gets walled by Susanoos lower stages

Naruto's COR with Ohnoki's aid couldnt break Madaras Ribcage, V3 MS susanoos can defend the user from Kirin...*"Oh that was Madaras ribcage"* bellyaching be damned, the feat is VERY EASILY transferable given MS susanoos feats of taking shit on another level anyway.

Theres no argument here that supports Jmans COR somehow making up either of those gaps.

Sasuke wouldnt retort NOR open with Chidori against a rasengan the size of an SUV...Sasuke would know how that ends given his 10,000 prior clashes with rasengan in smaller sizes.

IC MS Sasuek opens with MS routinely...Even on the brink of exhaustion


Shazam said:


> Jiraiya uses Kekkai: Tengai Hojin to make sure he doesn't get blindsided by Sasuke, Sasuke is fast.


I agree Sasuke should have a base speed advantage, but hes not gonna be reliant on too much guile anyway and what guile he does use is Genjutsu related not physical related, a barrier is doing shit against that regardless.

This isnt doing anything for Jman but wasting his chakra.


Shazam said:


> For Susano'o, Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa


Sasuke can deduce an oncoming attacks element based on nothing but hand seals and preemptively ready a raiton tech to bitch Yomi Numa bud

He can also fucking fly via his hawk summon.

Jman doing anything with Yomi Numa here is a fantasy.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 7, 2018)

*Spoiler*: __ 









Amaterasu being sensed

Multiple actions being able to take place before it release

Inb4 saltKappa


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What about when Sasuke uses it or when he uses Kagutsuchi?


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## Serene Grace (Aug 7, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What about when Sasuke uses it or when he uses Kagutsuchi?


Sasuke is it different story since Jiriaya won't be expecting it...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Sasuke is it different story since Jiriaya won't be expecting it...



You cited Itachi with Amaterasu taking ages, but Sasuke has consistently shown he can use it instantaneously.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 7, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amaterasu NOT being sensed



A sage, with better anatomy/feats/hype than Jman for sensing, is damn near tagged by it and can make 0 actions until Sasuke himself physically manipulates Ama with Enton...Which is much slower. Kabuto would have been tagged in the top left panel had Sasuke been allowed to tag his ass. As Kabuto makes no reaction until the following panel...Mental or otherwise.

Inb4 we do that thing where we dont look at the whole picture or ANY conflicting evidence and merely look at what supports Jmans side of things 

All Nagato detecting Amaterasu means is just that he has a unique form of sensing thats different than Sage sensing and potentially superior in a single aspect of sensing 

No reason to give a Sage with 0 sensory feats access to Nagatos feat when we outright see a BETTER sage NOT REPLICATE Nagatos feat and literally flop in the same scenario.

And besides, Nagato expressly states he familiar with the fucking sensation of Amaterasu...Hence why he knew what was about to happen...Jman wont have that luxury whether he can preemptively sense buildup or not.

He wont be able to differentiate between a Katon, or a chidori, or a susanoo attack, or genjutsu, or a summoning, or enton or amaterasu based on feeling alone...Because he has no knowledge and will be sensing all of that shit for the first time

All hed know, even if i conceded that he would magically be able to sense what Kabuto couldnt, would be that  vague "something" is coming.

Thats literally useless information.

The entire notion that Jman can reliably defend against Amaterasu is dependent on his ability to scale to Nagatos feats...Which sages DONT DO as shown in the manga

Even if he had full knowledge itd be a stretch

As Kabuto DID have knowledge and still DIDNT sense it.

Inb4 "Sage sensing>All other sensing" when we blatantly see that NOT be the case in this context as Nagatos sensing outperformed a Sages contextually


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> As Kabuto DID have knowledge and still DIDNT sense it.


You can argue he did sense it, hence he refrained from stepping where the flame formed.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 7, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Amaterasu NOT being sensed
> 
> *Spoiler*:


Proof? Or are you making shit up again



WorldsStrongest said:


> A sage, with better anatomy/feats/hype than Jman for sensing, is damn near tagged by it and can make 0 actions until Sasuke himself physically manipulates Ama with Enton...Which is much slower. Kabuto would have been tagged in the top left panel had Sasuke been allowed to tag his ass. As Kabuto makes no reaction until the following panel...Mental or otherwise.


Lol this dude.

First it's stupid to say a Dust cloud that circumvented Sharred vision would be effective against Sasuke's MS, now ignoring Kabuto already knew they weren't gonna kill him.

Though I bet you're one of those dishonest fans that says Naruto and Sasuke are equal or that SM Kabuto is stronger than MS Sasuke yet say how they can't sense or counter Amaterasu..becauee "ItZ NAGaatoz feat, those sages can't even compare". Might as well say Madara and RSM Naruto can't sense it either





WorldsStrongest said:


> A sage, with better anatomy/feats/hype than Jman for sensing, is damn near tagged by it and can make 0 actions until Sasuke himself physically manipulates Ama with Enton...Which is much slower. Kabuto would have been tagged in the top left panel had Sasuke been allowed to tag his ass. As Kabuto makes no reaction until the following panel...Mental or otherwise.


You can say Jiraiya can't sense it I don't give two fucks. Ma and Pa can as the former sensed something on panel



WorldsStrongest said:


> Inb4 "Sage sensing>All other sensing" when we blatantly see that NOT be the case in this context as Nagatos sensing outperformed a Sages contextually


Oh yeah I forgot in your head Muu and Nagato are better sensors than every sage because they were put into circumstances where they can accomplish certain feats, right? LMAO, I've never seen this much damage control not even Bonly or Blu-ray as big of Uchiha fans as they are say this. You should learn from them


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## Shazam (Aug 7, 2018)

It's getting hot in here !


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Proof?


Oh ffs 

I only posted the fucking panel...Yet here we are denying it 

Well at least i get the benefit of saying i fucking called it


WorldsStrongest said:


> Inb4 we do that thing where we dont look at the whole picture or ANY conflicting evidence and merely look at what supports Jmans side of things


Its the little victories 


Serene Grace said:


> First it's stupid to say a Dust cloud that circumvented Sharred vision would be effective against Sasuke's MS


Thats not what i said 

I said its stupid to assume he cant fire amaterasu or enton through a dust loud anyway because the dust cloud itself can simply become the target rather than Jman specifically. And we know hindered vision is NOT SUFFICIENT to halt an MS tech from activating...As they have been used numerous times by characters whos vision was straight up fucking SEALED AWAY which i can PROMISE affected their sight more than a temporary fuuton. I also said he has techniques for DISPERSING the cloud making it a useless technique, and i said he has feats of AoE with Ama or Enton comparable to if not greater than Dust cloud so his inability to see Jman in it doesnt fucking matter.

I ALSO stated, Amaterasu is FACTUALLY outspeeding Shimas cast of Dust Cloud if it comes down to that anyway...Because OBVIOUSLY

But go ahead man

And see only what it is you wnat to see and not whats actually being said

Its the Jman fan 2 step 


Serene Grace said:


> now ignoring Kabuto already knew they weren't gonna kill him.


Except i didnt ignore that


WorldsStrongest said:


> Kabuto would have been tagged in the top left panel had Sasuke been allowed to tag his ass


And Kabuto knowing they arent going to kill him doesnt mean hed just NOT take action if he sensed a fucking powerful MS technique being prepped...Are you aware how asinine an argument this is on your part?

That he sensed them going for a high level technique liek this, and proceeded onward with no defensive action whatsoever and ALMOST ran directly into his fucking self?



But sure man...Kabuto sensed it and just made no phsyical or mental reaction until teh panel AFTER it was cast and spread just for kicks 

Anything to push your stupid narrative 

I swear dude...Its like you people are more concerned with who wins rather than the ARGUMENTS for WHY one wins 



Serene Grace said:


> You can say Jiraiya can't sense it I don't give two fucks


He hasnt

And you clearly do give a darn or else youd just fucking concede already


Serene Grace said:


> Ma and Pa can


This doesnt change the fact that Kabuto, who SHITS on basically every other non rikudo sage in terms of sensing, DIDNT SENSE AMATERASU COMING

Ma/Pas sensing is also spotty at best as they couldnt find the chameleon sitting 20 feet in front of them without Ma's auxiliary technique


Serene Grace said:


> Oh yeah I forgot in your head Muu and Nagato are better sensors than every sage


Thats not what i said

I said they are contextually better in a SINGLE ASPECT OF SENSING and overall comparable in range

But sure

Go ahead and continue misquoting me

Its all this fucking post has been

Well, that and denying canon but what else is new 

> Show Grace a panel of a Sage NOT sensing Amaterasu
> For some reason...The sage wanted to get hit...Or something? And elected to do nothing for the lols?
> He also then has the gall to ask for "proof" like i didnt just fucking spoonfeed that to him

Seems legit 


Serene Grace said:


> they were put into circumstances where they can accomplish certain feats, right?


Theres nothing circumstantial about Nagato blatantly having a sensing feat of detecting buildup and NO SAGE EVER DOING SO DESPITE THE NUMEROUS ON PANEL FIGHTING DONE BY THEM


Serene Grace said:


> I've never seen this much damage control


Bitch spare me 

This entire fucking thread may as well be entitled "Ignoring Canon, all in the name of a Sannin" and if ANY of you could not be dishonest as fuck and stop misquoting me and spewing the same nonsensical headcanon arguments 50 times per thread, youd all realize that.

In this thread alone ive seen the following...


Dust > Having no fucking eyes or your eyes being fucking sealed
Goemon > FRS and Amaterasu
Lions Mane > FRS and Amaterasu
A V3 Susanoo that took Kirin cant replicate Ribcages feat of taking a COR
Jman can react to instant teleportation speeds
Flight doesnt equate to getting out of a swamp
Raiton doesnt beat Doton
Shima > V2 Raikage in speed
Jman, despite not even KOing Ningendo with a direct kick, is capable of killing a Boss Summon with a single kick
I could go on 

Then you have the sack to look me in the eye and talk about "damage control"

Talk about delusional


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 8, 2018)

Shazam said:


> It's getting hot in here !


"Hot in here" implies theres some back and forth and both sides have merit and theres some actual debate occurring.

This isnt that 

At this point, im literally trying to explain to 4 year olds why they cant be wizards when they grow up and they are all disagreeing with me and think their points hold merit


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