# BSM Naruto vs SM Hashirama



## Namikaze Minato (Sep 6, 2013)

*Conditions:* 

Naruto is already fused with Pa & Ma before this battle start as Kurama have allowed it, and assume that all of them will work in sync as a team.
*Restrictions:* None.
*Knowledge:* Manga for both.
*Battlefield:* Sannin battlefield.
*Starting Distance:* 50m.
*State of Mind:* BloodLusted for Hashirama and IC for Naruto.


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## Kai (Sep 6, 2013)

This one is a tough call.

BSM acquires the firepower necessary to take on Shinsuusenju and win, but there almost certainly is a limit on time and maintenance with BSM just as there was with its components, BM and SM.

If Naruto reverts to any form less than BSM, Shinsuusenju absolutely wrecks him with gattling punches. I see this as a battle of time and attrition than a straight power struggle. How Ma and Pa play a role in this in the midst of two titanic structures is difficult to imagine, but they will be invaluable if they are alive long enough for the endgame when everything is deactivated or destroyed.

It could go either way, but I'm slightly leaning towards Hashi here. Naruto's mode is too new for him at the moment to pull off a definite win against the Shinobi no Kami.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 6, 2013)

any bijudama gets caught and is smashed into naruto. hashirama would beat BSM naruto in the same fashion that he beats BM naruto.

or

mokuryu strips him of the kyuubi avatar like in canon. the flower world takes him out from there.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

Any redirected attack naruto can return it to hashis face as he did with the other TBBs 

The other Jutsus one exhausted clon can defeat it as in canon


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## Lurko (Sep 6, 2013)

I'm goona go with Hashi for now but I think people should wait a week so that Bsm naruto has better feats.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 6, 2013)

We don't have to wait a damn week. Shit, its so fucking obvious Naruto is above & beyond these dudes.

With KCM Naruto was throwing COFRS, which was the size of a Bijuu's upper body.
By simple scaling, with BM that shit would have gotten twice the size.
With BSM? Oh helllllllllllllllllllll son!

It only took 12 Rapid Fire BijuuDamas to strip Budha of most of its arms.
With BijuuSageMode? Naruto chucks 24 of those with BSM COFRSz to back it up with 100 clones blitzing at it with Cho Odama Rasengans enhanced by SageMode *which were strong enough to grind through Juubi's Tails which tanked its own Super BijuuDama* as we saw in the recent chapter.

Look, look. Hashirama gets fucking disintegrated.


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## ueharakk (Sep 6, 2013)

I still think Hashirama is portrayed as stronger than BMSM Naruto.

But by feats and the logic that BMSM Naruto is to BM naruto as SM Naruto is to base naruto, Naruto should win this.

Durability-wise, Naruto has already blocked an attack more powerful than Shinsuusenjuu's barrage in BM.  In SM, Hashirama's attacks shouldn't do anything serious to him.  Naruto already had the firepower to at least contend with shinsuusenjuu in the form of a super bijuudama, but now his damas are augumented by SM power meaning they get massively larger and more powerful.

Then there's the fact that he should be much faster than he was in BM, and his shunshin already moves him at speeds that no one has yet been able to react to.  Then there's things like  KCMSM/BM SM/ KCM/ SM clones throwing FRS from within the chakra cloak, FRS that can cut through the juubi's tails and devastate half the chibaku tensei crater with its Aoe.

I'd favor BM Naruto.


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## Datakim (Sep 6, 2013)

I think this depends greatly on what effect Natural Energy has on BM. Generally speaking, Hashirama has a significant advantage against BM!Naruto due to his mokuton abilities, which act much like kryptonite to bijuu. We saw what happened when edo!Madara used the wood dragon against Naruto. It easily absorbed/disrupted Kuramas chakra. Likewise, we saw during the flashback that Hashiramas mokuton constructs can easily deal with Kuramas attacks such as bijuudamas.

However its been established that SM basically enhances all things. Fukasaku claimed that genjutsu and ninjutsu would all be inherently advanced, a fact which was made very clear when Naruto was able to throw his FRS, which had proven impossible in base.

So it seems possible that adding NE to Kuramas chakra might well add resistance to mokuton. If so, I would give this match to BSM, since I think without the mokuton boost, Hashirama would lose. However if mokuton can still just neutralise Kuramas bijuu chakra, even after the Sage Mode boost, then Hashirama wins since he can force Naruto out of BSM, and without it Naruto cannot win.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 6, 2013)

^I agree with this. It all depends on how Mokuton affects BIjuu Mode.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> This one is a tough call.
> 
> BSM acquires the firepower necessary to take on Shinsuusenju and win, but there almost certainly is a limit on time and maintenance with BSM just as there was with its components, BM and SM.
> 
> ...



Godammit Kai, why do you always _have_ to have the right opinion on everything?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Datakim said:


> I think this depends greatly on what effect Natural Energy has on BM. Generally speaking, Hashirama has a significant advantage against BM!Naruto due to his mokuton abilities, which act much like kryptonite to bijuu. We saw what happened when edo!Madara used the wood dragon against Naruto. It easily absorbed/disrupted Kuramas chakra. Likewise, we saw during the flashback that Hashiramas mokuton constructs can easily deal with Kuramas attacks such as bijuudamas.
> 
> However its been established that SM basically enhances all things. Fukasaku claimed that genjutsu and ninjutsu would all be inherently advanced, a fact which was made very clear when Naruto was able to throw his FRS, which had proven impossible in base.
> 
> So it seems possible that adding NE to Kuramas chakra might well add resistance to mokuton. If so, I would give this match to BSM, since I think without the mokuton boost, Hashirama would lose. However if mokuton can still just neutralise Kuramas bijuu chakra, even after the Sage Mode boost, then Hashirama wins since he can force Naruto out of BSM, and without it Naruto cannot win.


Mokuton: Ryu no Jutsu's weakness is its head. If the head is destroyed, the jutsu becomes useless. Naruto already dealt with that by reverting to human form, cloning himself and destroying the head. So even if Mokuton: Ryu does get around him, it'll still be countered by Naruto. Mokuton: Ryu no Jutsu wasn't able to force Naruto out of Biju Mode either, he effortlessly reformed the giant avatar of Kurama right after getting out of it.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 6, 2013)

Datakim said:


> I think this depends greatly on what effect Natural Energy has on BM. Generally speaking, Hashirama has a significant advantage against BM!Naruto due to his mokuton abilities, which act much like kryptonite to bijuu. We saw what happened when edo!Madara used the wood dragon against Naruto. It easily absorbed/disrupted Kuramas chakra. Likewise, we saw during the flashback that Hashiramas mokuton constructs can easily deal with Kuramas attacks such as bijuudamas.
> 
> However its been established that SM basically enhances all things. Fukasaku claimed that genjutsu and ninjutsu would all be inherently advanced, a fact which was made very clear when Naruto was able to throw his FRS, which had proven impossible in base.
> 
> So it seems possible that adding NE to Kuramas chakra might well add resistance to mokuton. If so, I would give this match to BSM, since I think without the mokuton boost, Hashirama would lose. However if mokuton can still just neutralise Kuramas bijuu chakra, even after the Sage Mode boost, then Hashirama wins since he can force Naruto out of BSM, and without it Naruto cannot win.



This sums it up pretty well I think.


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## Chad (Sep 6, 2013)

If bijuu chakra suppression is allowed, Hashirama will take this with extreme difficulty. Hashirama can spam Myōjinmon. Seeing as how not even Jewbito can dodge it, I don't see how Naruto could do any better. Immobilizing Naruto is simple, but Naruto's durability is where the problem lies. Naruto could tank an Juubilaser before the recent chapter, senjutsu likely increases his durability even higher. Hashirama would need to further suppress Naruto's link with Kurama in order to weaken Naruto's cloak. 2 Mokuryuu's should do the trick, seeing as how a half sized Mokuryuu had already troubled Naruto before. If that's not enough, extract the kyuubi's chakra like Yamato did. All that's left to do Choubo-something. Extreme difficulty for Hashirama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2013)

Bogard said:


> If bijuu chakra suppression is allowed, Hashirama will take this with extreme difficulty. Hashirama can spam Myōjinmon. Seeing as how not even Jewbito can dodge it, I don't see how Naruto could do any better. Immobilizing Naruto is simple, but Naruto's durability is where the problem lies. Naruto could tank an Juubilaser before the recent chapter, senjutsu likely increases his durability even higher. Hashirama would need to further suppress Naruto's link with Kurama in order to weaken Naruto's cloak. 2 Mokuryuu's should do the trick, seeing as how a half sized Mokuryuu had already troubled Naruto before. If that's not enough, extract the kyuubi's chakra like Yamato did. All that's left to do Choubo-something. Extreme difficulty for Hashirama.


Naruto has danger sensing which Juubito lacks ,he can dodge the Myojinmon a lot easier due to the advance warning it gives. And Mokuryu? Naruto has already countered it and destroyed the head. Yamato never extracted Kurama's chakra too, all he did was put Kurama to sleep like Hashirama did.

And on the Myojinmon, Juubito didn't exactly make any _attempt_ to avoid it. In his first form, he was just looking around in a daze and attacking like a wild animal after all.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 7, 2013)

Bogard said:


> If bijuu chakra suppression is allowed, Hashirama will take this with extreme difficulty. Hashirama can spam Myōjinmon. Seeing as how not even Jewbito can dodge it, I don't see how Naruto could do any better.



There's many things mindless Juubi didn't bother to dodge. He just stood their...well...mindless.


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## TheGreen1 (Sep 7, 2013)

Since Fukusaku and Shim a are already summoned and enhanced by both SM that they gather, and Kurama's chakra, Frog Song might even be MORE powerful than it was before. And even if its not, Hashirama has no real defense against it. He hears it, he's done. Period.


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## Misaki Yata (Sep 8, 2013)

*Naruto can use his tbb to take out the buddha statues legs and make it collapse.His golem gets smash by 2 tbb and the wood dragon gets tbb too.Naruto can sense danger so he can shunshin while being aware of his sexy surroundings.*


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## Azula (Sep 8, 2013)

Can't counter  just like bijuudama with susanoo blades

it should destroy a considerable portion of the great buddha


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## Psp123789 (Sep 8, 2013)

BSM naruto beats hashi. Since in BSM he should have increased speed and chakra sensing and malice sensing, I doubt hashi can surprise him with any mokuton. Wood dragon was already countered by naruto and now that he has knowledge he can simply nuke it. Then there is also frog song to help naruto. TBB barrage or chakra roar takes out all base mokuton. The great Buddha statue may be a problem but CORFS spam with clones and himself take out all of the hands and naruto just dodges or tanks the rest with his tails. I also almost forgot that sm enhances ninjutsu too so that COFRS should be even more bigger and powerful. TBB barrage or an ultimate TBB also take out the statue. After all the hands are gone and the statue has fallen super sage enhanced TBB destroys hashirama. Or naruto can enhance the 2 sages with kyuubi chakra and frog song finishes hahsirama. Naruto wins.


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## Krippy (Sep 8, 2013)

Hashirama murderstomps.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> yeaaaaaaaahhhhh



Senpou: Kyuubi-Shunshin. Game.


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## Krippy (Sep 8, 2013)

Senpo: Buddah chokeslam gg


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Senpo: Buddah chokeslam gg



you can't GG what you can't hit.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 8, 2013)

Nevermind the fact that Shinsusenju was incapable of even HURTING Kurama anyway. And this is before Biju Sage Mode Naruto.


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## Krippy (Sep 8, 2013)

Elia said:


> you can't GG what you can't hit.



So Naruto can just avoid it indefinately and spam Bijuubombs from a distance forever?

lel


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Senpo: Buddah chokeslam gg




  

Buddha -> Sluggish giant statue. Naruto -> Fastest thing in the verse. Conclusion: Naruto dodges?

Juubi's durability > Buddha's durability. Plain Bijuu Mode Naruto cut's tails of Juubi with dual FRS. Conclusion: Naruto cut's Buddah's head off?

Juubi's firepower > Buddha's firepower. Naruto tanks Juubi's Bijuu Beam with his tails. Senjutsu augments strength & durability massively. Conclusion: Naruto _easily_ survives Buddha's assaults?


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## Octavian (Sep 8, 2013)

If Kishi remains consistent with his scaling, then the senjutsu boost to BM Naruto's strongest bijuudama should destroy Shinsuusenju and without that Hashirama loses.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 8, 2013)

Hashirama cannot stop a Senpou: COFRS coming towards him & Budha.

All defenses will get chopped. Nothing can or will stop its travel.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2013)

and of course, in the battledome where only feats are accounted for, there is heavy extrapolation of narutos powers.
-Snip-

hashirama ends the match as soon as it starts.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Buddha -> Sluggish giant statue. Naruto -> Fastest thing in the verse. Conclusion: Naruto dodges?
> 
> Juubi's durability > Buddha's durability. Plain Bijuu Mode Naruto cut's tails of Juubi with dual FRS. Conclusion: Naruto cut's Buddah's head off?
> 
> Juubi's firepower > Buddha's firepower. Naruto tanks Juubi's Bijuu Beam with his tails. Senjutsu augments strength & durability massively. Conclusion: Naruto _easily_ survives Buddha's assaults?


Naruto was also able to survive, unscathed, the giant Senjutsu enhanced Rasengan's explosion + the Onymoton Weaponry's explosion too.


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## Krippy (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Buddha -> Sluggish giant statue. Naruto -> Fastest thing in the verse. Conclusion: Naruto dodges?



not indefinately 



> Juubi's durability > Buddha's durability. Plain Bijuu Mode Naruto cut's tails of Juubi with dual FRS. Conclusion: Naruto cut's Buddah's head off?



Nope. Continuous BB + PS Swords failed, so 



> Juubi's firepower > Buddha's firepower. Naruto tanks Juubi's Bijuu Beam with his tails. Senjutsu augments strength & durability massively. Conclusion: Naruto _easily_ survives Buddha's assaults?



Juubi cant surpress Kurama though.

Dat weekly post-chapter wank


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hashirama ends the match as soon as it starts.



Raikage dodges Amaterasu, the fastest technique in the Manga.

KCM Naruto out-speeds Raikage.

BM Naruto out-speeds KCM Naruto.

Senjutsu augmenting all Ninjutsu would increase Bijuu Mode Naruto's Shunshin no Jutsu even further.

Hashirama...hits Naruto with a technique slower than Amaterasu?


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## FlamingRain (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Raikage dodges Amaterasu, the fastest technique in the Manga.
> 
> Hashirama...hits Naruto with a technique slower than Amaterasu?



Just saying. . .Hashirama's jutsus are literally several hundred times the size of _Amaterasu_, even if they are slower.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Raikage dodges Amaterasu, the fastest technique in the Manga.
> 
> KCM Naruto out-speeds Raikage.
> 
> ...


yes. just like naruto has been tagged by techniques slower than amaterasu countless times.

BM naruto was blitzed by the juubi, hashirama dropped gates on the juubijin.

BM naruto was backhanded by base madara.

BM naruto needed to be saved from V2 susano by gai.

needed to be saved from obitos shuriken by kakashi.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> not indefinately



He doesn't need to dodge indefinitely. 

I don't really think Hashirama is _that_ much more reflexive than Sasuke with his legendary Dojutsu's 3-Tome precognition. Sasuke can't keep track of Raikage. Raikage < KCM Naruto << BM Naruto <<< SBM Naruto.

Senpou: Kyuubi-Shunshin to Hashirama's flank, point blank Rasenshuriken GG. Hashirama can't even stop it. When Naruto flickers in Bijuu Mode, mountain busters go flying in the opposite direction. Imagine Sage Mode enhancing that.



> Nope. Continuous BB + PS Swords failed, so



The Juubi's body can withstand it's own continent scale Bijuu Bombs. Naruto then cut them. Shinsuusenju get's cut, unless you're taking the stance that it's more durable than the Ten-Tails. 



> Juubi cant surpress Kurama though.



Shinsuusenju doesn't suppress. The creature on top of it's head does. I said Naruto could survive Shinsuusenju's assaults. He can dodge the Mokujin, and then blow it up with Bijuudama.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> yes. just like naruto has been tagged by techniques slower than amaterasu countless times.
> 
> BM naruto was blitzed by the juubi, hashirama dropped gates on the juubijin.
> 
> ...



BSM Naruto has never been tagged, only his Kurama avatar, in an explosion off his own Jutsu. Hell, I don't even remember BM Naruto's actual body getting hit, only the Kyuubi construct.

Hashirama hit mindless Obito. Naruto isn't mindless. Hashirama wouldn't hit a Obito with his mind either. 

BM Naruto's clone had it's attack reflected by Edo Madara (who btw is more reflexive than Hashirama thanks to the Sharingan). But, as I said, that was a clone. Clones are fodder. Madara fodderized Hashirama's clones while sitting down.

Naruto saved Gai, and Gai got off a Hirodura.

Naruto caught Obito's Shuriken after they sliced through Bee's tentacles. 




FlamingRain said:


> Just saying. . .Hashirama's jutsus are literally several hundred times the size of _Amaterasu_, even if they are slower.



Sheer speed difference between the Raikage and Naruto should compensate.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> BSM Naruto has never been tagged, only his Kurama avatar, in an explosion off his own Jutsu. Hell, I don't even remember BM Naruto's actual body getting hit, only the Kyuubi construct.


this isnt even relevant. every time his actual body was in danger of being hit, he was saved.


> Hashirama hit mindless Obito. Naruto isn't mindless. Hashirama wouldn't hit a Obito with his mind either.


the juubi taking over obitos mind doesnt affect his ability to react to and dodge attacks.


> BM Naruto's clone had it's attack reflected by Edo Madara (who btw is more reflexive than Hashirama thanks to the Sharingan). But, as I said, that was a clone. Clones are fodder. Madara fodderized Hashirama's clones while sitting down.


hashirama has equal speed and reactions to madara.



> Naruto saved Gai, and Gai got off a Hirodura.


take off the selective reading goggles. naruto was about to get stabbed by susano, and gai saved him with hirudora.



> Naruto caught Obito's Shuriken after they sliced through Bee's tentacles.


not even talking about this. obito was about to kill naruto with his shuriken, and kakashi saved him.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> this isnt even relevant. every time his actual body was in danger of being hit, he was saved.



He wasn't in any danger, which was revealed when we leaned he could sprout Kurama's limbs from his body to block attacks.

Buuuuuuuut.....

That was Bijuu Mode Naruto. This is Sage-Bijuu Mode Naruto, who's body is now augmented by Senjutsu.



> the juubi taking over obitos mind doesnt affect his ability to react to and dodge attacks



The Juubi taking over Obito's mind affected his ability to remember his name. So yeah, it does.



> hashirama has equal speed and reactions to madara.



One clash doesn't give them equal speed and reflexes. Sasuke got the best of Ei in a clash, I suppose you think Sasuke has better reflexes than Ei, right?



> take off the selective reading goggles. naruto was about to get stabbed by susano, and gai saved him with hirudora.



That was a clone.  Didn't I already go over how clones were fodder. 



> not even talking about this. obito was about to kill naruto with his shuriken, and kakashi saved him.



Naruto was at 50% because he had a clone out. However, Shuriken wouldn't damage Naruto through his cloak. He was never in any danger. 

The real question is, why didn't Madara activate Susano'o before Rock Lee kicked him in half?


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 8, 2013)

Well, Rocky, in regards to your comparison between Hashirama's skirmish with Madara and Sasuke and Ei's, I think it was depicted that Sasuke had equal reaction speed to Ei (if only just because of his Sharingan's precognition) but lacked the actual movement speed to keep up with his full speed. Or, at least, this was the case until Ei amped up his raiton no yoroi to evade Amaterasu...

But that's besides the point, since Hashirama has been portrayed as being superior to Madara in pretty much every single way. I doubt Hashirama would be slower than Madara, or have any significant gap in speed, considering the relationship between the two. Moreover, we've actually got a speed feat of Hashirama running away from a tailed beast bomb.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He wasn't in any danger, which was revealed when we leaned he could sprout Kurama's limbs from his body to block attacks.
> 
> Buuuuuuuut.....
> 
> That was Bijuu Mode Naruto. This is Sage-Bijuu Mode Naruto, who's body is now augmented by Senjutsu.


he wasnt in any danger despite the manga showing him in danger and having to be saved by multiple characters.

/logic.




> The Juubi taking over Obito's mind affected his ability to remember his name. So yeah, it does.


obitos name has nothing to do with his fighting ability. he was perfectly capable of reacting to attacks.



> One clash doesn't give them equal speed and reflexes. Sasuke got the best of Ei in a clash, I suppose you think Sasuke has better reflexes than Ei, right?


does sasuke have greater reflexes than V1 Ay? yes.




> That was a clone.  Didn't I already go over how clones were fodder.


 
no, that was the real naruto and as stated in the manga, clones have all the abilities of the original.



> Naruto was at 50% because he had a clone out. However, Shuriken wouldn't damage Naruto through his cloak. He was never in any danger.


he halved his chakra. that all he did. -Snip-



> The real question is, why didn't Madara activate Susano'o before Rock Lee kicked him in half?


this isnt relevant.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 8, 2013)

Signa Inferemus said:


> Well, Rocky, in regards to your comparison between Hashirama's skirmish with Madara and Sasuke and Ei's, I think it was depicted that Sasuke had equal reaction speed to Ei (if only just because of his Sharingan's precognition) but lacked the actual movement speed to keep up with his full speed. Or, at least, this was the case until Ei amped up his raiton no yoroi to evade Amaterasu...
> 
> But that's besides the point, since Hashirama has been portrayed as being superior to Madara in pretty much every single way. I doubt Hashirama would be slower than Madara, or have any significant gap in speed, considering the relationship between the two. Moreover, we've actually got a speed feat of Hashirama running away from a tailed beast bomb.


Madara and Hashirama seem to be physical equals with Hashirama's power being superior. Their taijutsu, speed, and strength were about equal ever since they were children after all.

Sasuke didn't have equal reaction or movement speed to A. He specifically made the Amaterasu Shield because he couldn't react to A's full speed.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Signa Inferemus said:


> I doubt Hashirama would be slower than Madara, or have any significant gap in speed, considering the relationship between the two.



The Sharingan gives Madara the obvious edge in reaction time. He knows where people will be before they get there.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The Sharingan gives Madara the obvious edge in reaction time. He knows where people will be before they get there.



A lot of the flashbacks surrounding their fight depict the two using and fighting with weapons. Based on this, I sort of doubt Madara's reaction time would be at a level where it would completely outclass or have any sort of significant advantage over Hashirama's. I think Hashirama has superior movement speed, but Madara has better reactions due to the Sharingan. Though, half of that is completely based on assumptions.


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

Signa Inferemus said:


> Well, Rocky, in regards to your comparison between Hashirama's skirmish with Madara and Sasuke and Ei's, I think it was depicted that Sasuke had equal reaction speed to Ei (if only just because of his Sharingan's precognition) but lacked the actual movement speed to keep up with his full speed. Or, at least, this was the case until Ei amped up his raiton no yoroi to evade Amaterasu...
> 
> But that's besides the point, since Hashirama has been portrayed as being superior to Madara in pretty much every single way. I doubt Hashirama would be slower than Madara, or have any significant gap in speed, considering the relationship between the two. Moreover, we've actually got a speed feat of Hashirama running away from a tailed beast bomb.



track
Madara was not able to even dodge V1 A. 

BSM Naruto > BM Naruto > KCM Naruto > V2 A > V1 A > Madara 

so, regardless if Hashi was as fast as Madara or not, there is a HUGE GAP in speed
between him and Naruto.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> no, that was the real naruto and as stated in the manga, clones have all the abilities of the original.



The real Naruto was with Kakashi.

Clones are far weaker than the original, or did you miss Madara killing Hashirama's clones left and right.



> he halved his chakra. that all he did. an excuse from a naruto fan. ive never heard that before. /sarcasm



Which made him weaker. The real Madara looses to Hashirama, but he can destroy his clones sitting down. Clones > Actual bodies.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The real Naruto was with Kakashi.


the real naruto went into bijumode and formed a bijudama with bee. the clone with kakashi went into sage mode and dispersed after it got hit by the juubi.


> Clones are far weaker than the original, or did you miss Madara killing Hashirama's clones left and right.


those were mokubunshin. hashirama can control how much power he puts in his clones. naruto halves his chakra and makes a clone that can use all of his abilities.





> Which made him weaker. The real Madara looses to Hashirama, but he can destroy his clones sitting down. Clones > Actual bodies.


or all it did was give him a split chakra reserve.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Signa Inferemus said:


> A lot of the flashbacks surrounding their fight depict the two using and fighting with weapons. Based on this, I sort of doubt Madara's reaction time would be at a level where it would completely outclass or have any sort of significant advantage over Hashirama's. I think Hashirama has superior movement speed, but Madara has better reactions due to the Sharingan. Though, half of that is completely based on assumptions.



Making so many assumptions is unnecessary anyway. Madara couldn't even track lightened Ei. Hashirama _will not_ be tracking BSM Naruto.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the real naruto went into bijumode and formed a bijudama with bee. the clone with kakashi went into sage mode and dispersed after it got hit by the juubi.



My bad.

So just switch it then. Obito almost hit a clone, while Madara almost hit 50% Naruto.



> Hashirama can control how much power he puts in his clones.



Proof of this?



> or all it did was give him a split chakra reserve.



Which makes him less powerful. Half of Yang-Kurama's Chakra powering his body is not as good as all of Yang Kurama's Chakra.


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## ueharakk (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky, you're wasting your time.

You are arguing with the guy who says skeletal susanoo tanks 13 FRS simultaneously without a scratch.


When it comes to anything hashirama or naruto related, there is no discussion with him.


----------



## Krippy (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He doesn't need to dodge indefinitely.



He can't physically compete in close quarters, and I doubt he can destroy it outright.



> I don't really think Hashirama is _that_ much more reflexive than Sasuke with his legendary Dojutsu's 3-Tome precognition. Sasuke can't keep track of Raikage.



He can't keep track of his fastest, non-linear Shunshin. That wasn't a normal blitz. 



> Raikage < KCM Naruto << BM Naruto <<< SBM Naruto.



Naruto isn't blitzing Hashirama. End of Story.



> Senpou: Kyuubi-Shunshin to Hashirama's flank, point blank Rasenshuriken GG. Hashirama can't even stop it. When Naruto flickers in Bijuu Mode, mountain busters go flying in the opposite direction. Imagine Sage Mode enhancing that.



You act like Hashirama won't react when Madara did it with ease.

Sure it could have been PnJ, but I'm sure he knew to go all out when fighting Madara.



> The Juubi's body can withstand it's own continent scale Bijuu Bombs. Naruto then cut them. Shinsuusenju get's cut, unless you're taking the stance that it's more durable than the Ten-Tails.



Amaterasu did more damage to the Juubi than it's own BB. PS swords should be able to damage it moreso than a Rasenshuriken. Juubi would have taken more damge from the BB+PS sword assault than it's own BB. 

And how many Rasenshuriken can he throw? 20? 50? Even if each Rasenshuriken destroys a hand, it still has a couple thousand more handy. ()



> Shinsuusenju doesn't suppress. The creature on top of it's head does. I said Naruto could survive Shinsuusenju's assaults. He can dodge the Mokujin, and then blow it up with Bijuudama.



He'll be grabbed and surpassed eventually. Unless I missed something, Naruto's speed feats in his Kurama form are limited.

But I'll give it to Hashirama with high difficulty since you're being difficult :ignoramus


----------



## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Rocky, you're wasting your time.
> 
> You are arguing with the guy who says skeletal susanoo tanks 13 FRS simultaneously without a scratch.
> 
> ...



OR madara. 
*****

The only thing that Hashi has that can be a problem is his Buddha, and Naruto's speed
and TBBs should solve that problem!


----------



## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> He can't physically compete in close quarters, and I doubt he can destroy it outright.



He doesn't need to. Hashirama sits on its head unprotected. He can just flicker up there, and now it's Sage Mode Kurama's power packed into a human vs. Hashirama.




> He can't keep track of his fastest, non-linear Shunshin. That wasn't a normal blitz



My point still stands. Since he lacks the Sharingan, I think Hashirama would have trouble keeping track of Ei, let alone Naruto.



> Naruto isn't blitzing Hashirama. End of Story.



It hurts, doesn't it.. 

Madara's Sharingan eyes could not follow lightened Ei. I fail to see how Hashirama's normal eyes will follow Naruto.



> You act like Hashirama won't react when Madara did it with ease.



That was a clone. Clones =/= Originals. Madara put Hashirama's clones to shame while sitting down. 

When Naruto doesn't have his Chakra split in half, he can put more power into his flicker and thus make it faster.

Also, that was BM Naruto. BSM Naruto now has a Sage enhancement on his Shunshin.




> Amaterasu did more damage to the Juubi than it's own BB. PS swords should be able to damage it moreso than a Rasenshuriken. Juubi would have taken more damge from the BB+PS sword assault than it's own BB.



Amaterasu never actually hit the Juubi. It was Amaterasu fused with a certain technique...

The Juubi's more durable than rock, so don't know why you think Perfect Susano'o can cut it. 

I'm ver surprised that you think highly enough of Hashirama to claim that his wood statue's head is sturdier thanthe Tails of the Juubi.



> He'll be grabbed and surpassed eventually. Unless I missed something, Naruto's speed feats in his Kurama form are limited.



No he won't. 

Naruto can just deactivate the Kurama cloak should Hashirama manage to grab him. Then flicker away. Then reactivate.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Sep 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Amaterasu did more damage to the Juubi than it's own BB. PS swords should be able to damage it moreso than a Rasenshuriken.



Amaterasu was enhanced by the strongest wind technique in the manga, so I'm not exactly surprised that it did. 



> Originally posted by *Elia:*
> track
> Madara was not able to even dodge V1 A.



Literally the page before, Madara was forced to evade Mei's Lava Style techniques. It's rather hard to maneuver oneself in mid-air, when you can just block it with your arms, no?


----------



## Psp123789 (Sep 8, 2013)

Elia said:


> OR madara.
> *****
> 
> The only thing that Hashi has that can be a problem is his Buddha, and Naruto's speed
> and TBBs should solve that problem!


Naruto also has COFRS to deal with that. SM also enhances ninjutsu so it will be even stronger.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Making so many assumptions is unnecessary anyway. Madara couldn't even track lightened Ei. Hashirama _will not_ be tracking BSM Naruto.



I feel like there was no point to obscuring Madara's vision with _Kirigakure_ if he couldn't track lightened Ay.

He casually reacted to a blindsiding V2 Ay with the _Rinnegan_. Switch to the EMS to add precognition onto that already incredible reaction timing and I think he could have tracked lightened Ay.

If not the Kages are all stupid for trying to blind him when it didn't matter.


----------



## Jagger (Sep 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> and of course, in the battledome where only feats are accounted for, there is heavy extrapolation of narutos powers.
> -Snip-
> 
> hashirama ends the match as soon as it starts.


Hashirama hit a mindless Obito who was not even aware of his surroundings got hit by somethign BM Naruto can easily dodge with no problems. Not even Kakashi with his Sharingan was able to keep up with Naruto's speed and confused him with his master. ALl the times BM Naruto has been hit was inside that giant chakra cloak, not in his human form, so try again.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I feel like there was no point to obscuring Madara's vision with _Kirigakure_ if he couldn't track lightened Ay.
> 
> He casually reacted to a blindsiding V2 Ay with the _Rinnegan_. Switch to the EMS to add precognition onto that already incredible reaction timing and I think he could have tracked lightened Ay.
> 
> If not the Kages are all stupid for trying to blind him when it didn't matter.



I'm sure that the Hidden Mist did make it more difficult for Madara to react. However, Hashirama doesn't have the Rinnegan or Sharingan to aid him, and lightened Ei is still far slower than even Bijuu Mode Naruto.

I'm 100% confident that the difference in speed between BSM Naruto & Lightened Ei, as well as Hashirama's lack of Dojutsu, would compensate for the Mist.

Also, Hashirama's body wouldn't be able to move in response. Remember Lee against Sasuke? Just getting his hands up won't work, and Hashirama has no flash defense like Susano'o. Simple guards will not work against Naruto's hand-held nukes.


----------



## Krippy (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He doesn't need to. Hashirama sits on its head unprotected. He can just flicker up there, and now it's Sage Mode Kurama's power packed into a human vs. Hashirama.



So he can just run up a Kilometer's high statue and Hashirama just stands there? 





> My point still stands. Since he lacks the Sharingan, I think Hashirama would have trouble keeping track of Ei, let alone Naruto.



Nah, Naruto wont get close enough to blitz him so it's a moot point.



> It hurts, doesn't it..
> 
> Madara's Sharingan eyes could not follow lightened Ei. I fail to see how Hashirama's normal eyes will follow Naruto.



He was blindsided and distracted by the other Kages, so it's a non-issue.





> That was a clone. Clones =/= Originals. Madara put Hashirama's clones to shame while sitting down.
> 
> When Naruto doesn't have his Chakra split in half, he can put more power into his flicker and thus make it faster.



Still not good enough to tip this in his favor. Speed is generally overrated and not a major factor in fights with Top-tiers.



> Also, that was BM Naruto. BSM Naruto now has a Sage enhancement on his Shunshin.



Now he wont get stomped as hard. 



> Amaterasu never actually hit the Juubi. It was Amaterasu fused with a certain technique...



It was just a bigger Amaterasu. COFRS just fed the flames and enlarged it.



> The Juubi's more durable than rock, so don't know why you think Perfect Susano'o can cut it.



FRS cuts rocks last time I checked. 



> I'm ver surprised that you think highly enough of Hashirama to claim that his wood statue's head is sturdier thanthe Tails of the Juubi.



Seeing how it's tails coundn't hurt the Hyuuga, I think my stance is pretty sound. 




> No he won't.
> 
> Naruto can just deactivate the Kurama cloak should Hashirama manage to grab him. Then flicker away. Then reactivate.



How many times, though? His chakra isn't infinate, once he reverts back to regular SM he'll get trashed.




ATastyMuffin said:


> Amaterasu was enhanced by the strongest wind technique in the manga, so I'm not exactly surprised that it did.



Like I said, it was a bigger Amaterasu.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> So he can just run up a Kilometer's high statue and Hashirama just stands there?


 
Yeah he's that fast. It isn't like Shinsuusenju is agile. 



> Nah, Naruto wont get close enough to blitz him so it's a moot point.



Naruto crossed a battlefield in an instant, countering 5 mountain busters in the process. If Hashirama is close enough for his statue to hit Naruto, he in Naruto's range. 



> He was blindsided and distracted by the other Kages, so it's a non-issue.



I'm sure the difference between Lightened Ei and a Sage Enhanced BM Naruto makes up for the support of Mei. 



> Still not good enough to tip this in his favor. Speed is generally overrated and not a major factor in fights with Top-tiers.



I don't see how it's overrated. No other top tier has the speed to reflect 5 Bijuudama just by running. Even a speedster like Gai was in awe. 

And Shunshin is a Ninjutsu, just like Mokuton is a Ninjutsu. Is Ninjutsu overrated in Top-Tier battles? 




> Now he wont get stomped as hard.



Now Shodai's stomped in turn by the Sage of Six Paths reincarnate. 



> It was just a bigger Amaterasu. COFRS just fed the flames and enlarged it.



Yep, so the Juubi was bothered more by super Amaterasu than it was by Bee's Bijuudama.



> FRS cuts rocks last time I checked.



And the Juubi. Perfect Susano'o has done nothing like that.



> Seeing how it's tails coundn't hurt the Hyuuga, I think my stance is pretty sound.



Getting Rotation-ed by the Hyuuga has nothing to do with its durability. 



> How many times, though? His chakra isn't infinate, once he reverts back to regular SM he'll get trashed.



When Hashirama brings out Shisuusenju, Naruto flickers to its flank, similar to what Ei did to Sasuke, just on a larger scale. The statue is too sluggish to turn around in time to stop the Senpou: Bijuudama now aimed at it's head.

GG


----------



## Jak N Blak (Sep 8, 2013)

@ The statement of speed being irrelevant with top tiers.


----------



## naeluzamaki (Sep 9, 2013)

Bsm might lose but y'all forgetting naruto has 6 biju chakra also. Add that and hashi is out of his league.


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## Grimm6Jack (Sep 9, 2013)

The guy who can make multiple Kage+ level clones and that without even using those same clones, laughed off at 5 other Jinchurikis while in Bijuu Mode is going to lose to Hashi?

lol...

And Naruto casually makes Bijuudamas far stronger than the ordinary mountain level ones. Hashi managed to stop those, he hasn't stopped anything even close to being as powerfull as one of BM Nardo's huge Bijuudamas.

At full power, only Rikudou-sennin tier characters can take on BM Naruto 1on1.

Make this Madara and Hashi vs BM Naruto and this might be one hell of a fight.


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## Veracity (Sep 9, 2013)

Grimm6Jack said:


> The guy who can make multiple Kage+ level clones and that without even using those same clones, laughed off at 5 other Jinchurikis while in Bijuu Mode is going to lose to Hashi?
> 
> lol...
> 
> ...



Your underestimation of Hashirama is almost laughable.

Him and Madara vs Naruto would not be a "hell of a battle." A Sussano covered Buddha statue would end Naruto.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 9, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Your underestimation of Hashirama is almost laughable.
> 
> Him and Madara vs Naruto would not be a "hell of a battle." *A Sussano covered Buddha statue would end Naruto*.



Madara can't do that, his PS is FAR smaller. It's good if he can cover even one hand.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> Madara can't do that, his PS is FAR smaller. It's good if he can cover even one hand.



Why wouldn't he be able to pump more chakra into it? He definitely has the chakra for it. Don't deny that.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 9, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Why wouldn't he be able to pump more chakra into it? He definitely has the chakra for it. Don't deny that.



Madara doesn't have Chakra on the scale of Sage Hashirama. He cannot create a Susano'o the size of the Shinsuu senju.


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## Veracity (Sep 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Madara doesn't have Chakra on the scale of Sage Hashirama. He cannot create a Susano'o the size of the Shinsuu senju.



Your basing this off of what? Madara and Hashirama were both pretty damn tired at the ends of their battles, and your acting like Hashirama pumps ALL of his chakra into that one move. He continued to fight Madara for probably hours after that move. And that move probably doesn't even take up half of his chakra. So unless you assume that Madara has less then half of Hashirama's chakra then I don't see your point.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Your basing this off of what? Madara and Hashirama were both pretty damn tired at the ends of their battles, and your acting like Hashirama pumps ALL of his chakra into that one move. He continued to fight Madara for probably hours after that move. And that move probably doesn't even take up half of his chakra. So unless you assume that Madara has less then half of Hashirama's chakra then I don't see your point.



Maybe Hashirama was more tired because.....he used more Chakra? Using something on the scale of the Shin Sūsenju is going to drain Hashirama enormously. Most of their battle post Sage Mode was probably small scale stuff. At the end, Madara couldn't even maintain the Sharingan, while Hashirama could still create clones. 

And by the way, yes Madara has less than half the Chakra of Sage Mode Hashirama. Even a small portion of Hashirama cells do insane things for one's stamina. There has never been any emphasis on Madara's Chakra pool compared to Hashirama's. Now factor in Sage Mode.  

Itachi and Sasuke don't pump _all_ of their Chakra into Susano'o, yet they cannot make it larger. Naruto doesn't pump _all_ of his Chakra into Full Bijuu Mode, yet he can't make the Fox Avatar bigger. You can't just make shit bigger. That goes against everything we've seen.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 10, 2013)

Sadly enough, Hashirama doesn't need his Sage-enhanced techniques to defeat BSM Naruto; his suppression accomplishes most of the work, in fact. 

If Naruto wants to compete, heavy restrictions must be placed on the former.


The gap between Hashirama and Naruto is quite large.


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## Trojan (Sep 10, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Sadly enough, Hashirama doesn't need his Sage-enhanced techniques to defeat BSM Naruto; his suppression accomplishes most of the work, in fact.
> 
> If Naruto wants to compete, heavy restrictions must be placed on the former.
> 
> ...



yeah, Naruto indeed much stronger than him.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 10, 2013)

BSM naruto couldnt some tree branches that were only the width of a human in size. he will never avoid an entire forest that is stated to be created in an instant.

he dodges absolutely nothing. god gates GG. flower world gg(after kurama cloak is soloed by the mokuryu).


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## Trojan (Sep 10, 2013)

^

Lol, you do know that Hashi is no more than a small bug if compared to Juubi, right?

he'll more likely blitz the wood out of Hashi in no time.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> ^
> 
> Lol, you do know that Hashi is no more than a small bug if compared to Juubi, right?
> 
> he'll more likely blitz the wood out of Hashi in no time.


i never said that hashirama is stronger than juubito. what makes the god tree deadly is the ability to absorb all chakra.

the branched however were no wider than a person unlike hashiramas, 100% kyuubi sized branches. if naruto cant dodge a few tree branches, then he cant dodge any kind of mokuton from hashirama. he dodges absolutely no techs from any top tier in this manga.

btw, hashirama was dodging the same tree branches that blitzed naruto.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> ^
> 
> Lol, you do know that Hashi is no more than a small bug if compared to Juubi, right?
> 
> he'll more likely blitz the wood out of Hashi in no time.



Are you joking?
Until Obito came into the picture, Hashirama was able to suppress the Juubi - more or less - and there is a reason why Kishi took him away from the fight.  

At the very least, Shinsuusenju is similar in size to the Juubi.


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## Trojan (Sep 10, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> i never said that hashirama is stronger than juubito. what makes the god tree deadly is the ability to absorb all chakra.
> 
> the branched however were no wider than a person unlike hashiramas, 100% kyuubi sized branches. if naruto cant dodge a few tree branches, then he cant dodge any kind of mokuton from hashirama. he dodges absolutely no techs from any top tier in this manga.
> 
> btw, hashirama was dodging the same tree branches that blitzed naruto.



- Good.
- No, just because the branches from the 10tails which is FAR bigger AND stronger than
Hashi's were able to do that, that does not mean Hashi can do it because he's FAR weaker. 

- btw, Naruto was preparing for using TBB and obito was much closer to him + the branches
against Naruto were much more. 



King Itachi said:


> Are you joking?
> Until Obito came into the picture, Hashirama was able to suppress the Juubi - more or less - and there is a reason why Kishi took him away from the fight.
> 
> At the very least, Shinsuusenju is similar in size to the Juubi.



Lol, 
1- the Juubi was without a jin, unlike Naruto
2- obito already fodderized Hashi, and Hashi already admitted that he's inferoir to obito
in his last form, Kishi make him fight madara, because he's useless against obito.  

3- lol Hell no.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Good.
> - No, just because the branches from the 10tails which is FAR bigger AND stronger than
> Hashi's were able to do that, that does not mean Hashi can do it because he's FAR weaker.


the branches from the god tree are only the width of a person. hashiramas branches rival 100% kurama in size.


> -btw, Naruto was preparing for using TBB and obito was much closer to him


naruto was nowhere near obito. naruto was attempting to nuke him from long range with a bijudama. naruto got hit, simply because the sheer scale was beyond what he could handle.


> + the branches against Naruto were much more.



there were only 4-5 branches.


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## Trojan (Sep 10, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the branches from the god tree are only the width of a person. hashiramas branches rival 100% kurama in size.
> 
> naruto was nowhere near obito. naruto was attempting to nuke him from long range with a bijudama. naruto got hit, simply because the sheer scale was beyond what he could handle.
> 
> ...



- Not sure from where you got that. 

- Oh really? 
he's still much closer than Hahi. 

- and Hashi was only attacked by 1 at the time. 4 > 1


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> Lol,
> 1- the Juubi was without a jin, unlike Naruto



Your point? 

BSM Naruto is weaker than the Juubi (without a Jin).



> 2- obito already fodderized Hashi, and Hashi already admitted that he's inferoir to obito



So... Defeating a Bunshin means you've fodderized someone?

Hashirama mentioned he is weaker than Juubito, but it doesn't mean 'winning' is out of reach; he possesses the necessary tools to defeat him.



> in his last form, Kishi make him fight madara, because he's useless against obito.



That doesn't make any sense. 

You remember what Sage-enhanced techniques do to Obito?

Hashirama is a huge threat to Obito, which explains why Kishi made him fight Madara.



> 3- lol Hell no.



Read the flashback again.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 10, 2013)

This chapter just went to show how farrrrrrrrrrrrrr above BSM Naruto's chakra reserves are compared to Madara and Sage Hashirama.

No one was attacked as viciously by Juubi than Naruto. Fuck, even Minato was there with half of Lord Kurama and all Juubi focused on was Naruto and Naruto alone.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 10, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> This chapter just went to show how farrrrrrrrrrrrrr above BSM Naruto's chakra reserves are compared to Madara and Sage Hashirama.
> 
> No one was attacked as viciously by Juubi than Naruto. Fuck, even Minato was there with half of Lord Kurama and all Juubi focused on was Naruto and Naruto alone.



Did you miss the part where Hashirama claimed his chakra reserves are comparable to 100% Kyuubi/Naruto/Minato?

... and the entire alliance, if you want to get technical.

Hashirama and Madara were dodging the same branches that chased Naruto; they're just more reflexive and... skillful.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 10, 2013)

I could give a darn what Hashirama 'claims.'

The mother of all chakra singled out Naruto the most and that is fact.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 10, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> I could give a darn what Hashirama 'claims.'



You don't care what Kishi thinks, then? 

It seems like Hashirama's power derived from the root of all chakra; his Mokuton is stronger than the variants Naruto had experienced, as well.



> The mother of all chakra singled out Naruto the most and that is fact.



Not really...
Did you see the rest of them?

Naruto managed to evade the branches longer than some people; that's all.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Sep 10, 2013)

There is absolutely nothing to argue. The images speak for itself.

Naruto's chakra reserves are blatantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to everyone else's. 

FFS. Even Minato who has the other half of Kurama was absolutely ignored by Juubi just so she could get her hands on Naruto.
Juubi passively went after Madara & Hashirama...sending like a branch at a time.
Naruto's case? 5+ on panel plus even after they were cut, Juubi sprouted even more RIGHT AWAY to go after him.

Pictures speak 1000 words. All Hashirama speaks are  flat words.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 10, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> There is absolutely nothing to argue. The images speak for itself.
> 
> Naruto's chakra reserves are blatantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to everyone else's.
> 
> ...



Kishi sorta made it obvious. It's like when Hashirama said Obito was stronger then him. Sorta obvious. Naruto has less chakra, doesn't mean he's weaker.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Until Obito came into the picture, Hashirama was able to suppress the Juubi



I must have missed this part. The Juubi was still actively trying to kill them all, even after being held down by the Myōjinmon. The 4-man Hokage barrier prevented it from pulling off its country scale Bijuu Bombs, not Hashirama. It even further tried through the Juubilets, but team 7 handled them.



> At the very least, Shinsuusenju is similar in size to the Juubi.



So what. Kakashi is of comparable size to Jubito. Are you saying this means that the Shin Sūsenju is a threat to the Ten-Tails? Madara was able to take it down with just the Nine-Tails & Susano'o, so it isn't.


----------



## blk (Sep 11, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Not sure from where you got that.



I don't know about the branches that are as big as 100% Kyuubi (maybe he is referring to the Mokuton hands that Hashirama used when Madara started to slash around with PS), but a Mokuton like Flower World has clearly much bigger branches than the ones that overwhelmed Naruto [1 ; 2].

This last chapter just proved what i suggested several times already: Naruto has no effective counters to huge Mokuton tecniques.

Both Madara and Hashirama can easily make a city-level Mokuton from under his feet with just a clap of hands, he won't have the time to make a Bijuudama and a simple roar won't certainly suffice for destroy so many massive branches.
Even if he charges a Bijuudama in time he will have to basically target his own position, which means that he will damage himself.



> - Oh really?
> he's still much closer than Hahi.



Perfect Susano'o is on the right [3], Naruto and Minato were both thrown on the right [4] (bottom central panel).
Hashirama and Madara are not that much further from Obito than Naruto and Minato.




Jak N Blak said:


> This chapter just went to show how farrrrrrrrrrrrrr above BSM Naruto's chakra reserves are compared to Madara and Sage Hashirama.
> 
> No one was attacked as viciously by Juubi than Naruto. Fuck, even Minato was there with half of Lord Kurama and all Juubi focused on was Naruto and Naruto alone.



This chapter also showed that Naruto has no effective counters to the huge Mokuton jutsus that Hashirama (and Madara) can do casually.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 11, 2013)

THIS: 4

Is not fucking THIS: 4


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2013)

blk said:


> This chapter also showed that Naruto has no effective counters to the huge Mokuton jutsus that Hashirama (and Madara) can do casually.



Naruto already countered one of Hashirama's more powerful techniques, the Mokuryū, with only the body flicker, and this was _despite_ it's Chakra absorption abilities.


----------



## blk (Sep 11, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> THIS: 4
> 
> Is not fucking THIS: 4



Naruto got overwhelmed by far smaller and less branches, do not pretend that the whole tree was needed when it actually wasn't.
Flower World alone is enough for produce far more, and bigger, branches than the ones that overwhelmed Naruto.

This Susano'o [1] is at least half of the size of BM Naruto with the Kurama avatar and its width and height is less than the ones of a single branch [2] (central panel).
The only way that Naruto has for counter a jutsu with a similar scale is a Bijuudama of decent power, which he won't be able to do since the massive amount of wood that will appear from under his feet won't give him the time to charge it.
In the remote case that he succesfully charges a Bijuudama, he has to launch it into his own position, thus damaging himself.

While Naruto is occupied with the Mokuton, Hashirama can do whatever he wants to: make further Mokuton, close the distance and use the Mokuton Dragon, prepare a plan, activate SM, etc..



Rocky said:


> Naruto already countered one of Hashirama's more powerful techniques, the Mokuryū, with only the body flicker, and this was _despite_ it's Chakra absorption abilities.



The Mokuton dragon isn't particularly powerful.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2013)

Yeah, the God Tree's absorption abilities make Hashirama's look like a joke in comparison. We've already seen them in action against Naruto; they didn't work.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 11, 2013)

You cats are honestly trying to apply Juubi's Mokuton feats to Hashirama.
Jesus christ.
That's as bad as giving KN4 complete Kurama's feats.


----------



## blk (Sep 11, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> You cats are honestly trying to apply Juubi's Mokuton feats to Hashirama.
> Jesus christ.
> That's as bad as giving KN4 complete Kurama's feats.



Straw man.
Did you read my reply?


----------



## batman22wins (Sep 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, the God Tree's absorption abilities make Hashirama's look like a joke in comparison. We've already seen them in action against Naruto; they didn't work.



It did wrk. Naruto was forced to power down because it absorbed his bm cloak. Obviously this tree ismore ppowerful


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 11, 2013)

I think it is obvious that Hashirama is above Naruto, seeing as he inherited a haxx Kekkai Genkai from the *TREE GOD*. That alone portrays Hashirama's above Naruto _currently_, EoS Naruto is a different story.


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## batman22wins (Sep 11, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> i never said that hashirama is stronger than juubito. what makes the god tree deadly is the ability to absorb all chakra.
> 
> the branched however were no wider than a person unlike hashiramas, 100% kyuubi sized branches. if naruto cant dodge a few tree branches, then he cant dodge any kind of mokuton from hashirama. he dodges absolutely no techs from any top tier in this manga.
> 
> btw, hashirama was dodging the same tree branches that blitzed naruto.



Naruto and Minato got caught because they were close and they were charging bb. Minato only escaped because of his ftg. If Naruto wasn't charging he would of dodged them just like Bee and everyone else. Minato/Naruto were the only top tiers to get caught because they were distracted.


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## puma21 (Sep 11, 2013)

Waffle said:


> I think it is obvious that Hashirama is above Naruto, seeing as he inherited a haxx Kekkai Genkai from the *TREE GOD*. That alone portrays Hashirama's above Naruto _currently_, EoS Naruto is a different story.



That's like saying because Hashirama can stop the kyuubi with mokuton, by portrayal Zetsu can. It doesn't work like that.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Sep 11, 2013)

puma21 said:


> That's like saying because Hashirama can stop the kyuubi with mokuton, by portrayal Zetsu can. It doesn't work like that.


Don't take what I say out of context. It's annoying.

Hashirama has shown bjuu supression to the point where he made Kyuubi go to _sleep_ in one tap. I'm not in the mood for debating, so take this as you want. Hashirama is still above BSM Naruto, and I really don't care what Naruto's fanboys have to say about it. Kishi has made it blatantly clear, Mokuton=High level dojutsu>Sennin Modo>=<Bijuu>Naruto-verse.


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## batman22wins (Sep 11, 2013)

Waffle said:


> I think it is obvious that Hashirama is above Naruto, seeing as he inherited a haxx Kekkai Genkai from the *TREE GOD*. That alone portrays Hashirama's above Naruto _currently_, EoS Naruto is a different story.



I say they are around equal. Who ever wins would be extreme diff. They both have the fire power and hax

Power-Equal
Experience-Harshima no contest he doesn't even know what no being in a war is.
Battle tactics-Harshina mostly do to experience, but Naruto isn't too far behind
Overall jutsus-Naruto has shown way more variety. Summons,resengans,genjutsu,frog fu,bb etc....
Stamina-I think Harshima. He fought Madara for a full day


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 11, 2013)

blk said:


> Straw man.
> Did you read my reply?



I read it and threw it out the window.

Why the honest fuck are we pretending as though we have not seen Naruto deal with large scale Mokuton before?

Why the honest fuck are we pretending as though we have not seen the speeds of Hashirama's Mokuton?

Juubi's Mokuton is leagues larger than Hashirama's.
Juubi's Mokuton chakra absoprtion is leagues stronger than Hashirama's.
But when it comes to its speed? Well clearly Juubi's & Hashirama's are then equal! That's what I'm getting from you.

As I said. Strip it from your minds. WHAT EVER JUUBI ACCOMPLISHED SHALL NOT BE ATTRIBUTED TO HASHIRAMA.

This simply explains how far above Juubi's Mokuton is in all aspects to Hashirama's:
- In one panel, couple branches not even 10% the size of Mokuton Dragon stripped BSM...Not BijuuMode...BijuuSAGEMODE Naruto entirely from his cloak.

- Hashirama's dragon? Shit wrapped around Naruto for panels upon panels and still couldn't get the job done.

The gap between their Mokuton is RIDICULOUS.

Naruto can't deal with Large scale Mokuton...
Tell that to the dam Five Kage
Tell that to DAT Base Naruto clone


----------



## blk (Sep 11, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> I read it and threw it out the window.
> 
> Why the honest fuck are we pretending as though we have not seen Naruto deal with large scale Mokuton before?
> 
> ...



We have seen Naruto deal with the Mokuton dragon, and the result was that he was restrained for a significant amount of time. In a serious battle the enemy would have exploited such amount of time and defeated Naruto.

We have seen Naruto deal with a relatively low scale Mokuton (the one that Madara used) and the result was that he could counter it only thanks to the time that he had for prepare the defense, a luxury that he won't have if the Mokuton appear from below his feet, has greater scale, and the enemy doesn't stay still and watch him do whatever he wants.

In this last chapter we saw Naruto being attacked by a big amount of Mokuton coming out of the very place where he was standing; what happened was exactly what i had already suggested many times before (in various Hashi or Mads vs Naruto threads), which is that Naruto got overwhelmed because of the lack of an effective and immediate defense able to deal with Mokuton.

Something that needs to be said is that the tree's branches have chakra absorption while Flower World's branches don't.
However, FW has the pollen that can compesate for that; this means that if Naruto doesn't launch a Bijuudama into his own position (meaning that he will damage himself) fast enough (which is not granted, considering how fast the pollen affect people) he will be put to sleep.

In the case that Naruto counter the jutsu, he will have wasted time on dealing with the Mokuton and thus permitting Hashirama to do more jutsu (therefore compromising Naruto's situation even more) with impunity.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 11, 2013)

blk said:


> We have seen Naruto deal with the Mokuton dragon, and the result was that he was restrained for a significant amount of time. In a serious battle the enemy would have exploited such amount of time and defeated Naruto.


in a serious battle, Naruto would have used ninjutsu and fodderized mokuryu 11 times over so nope.



blk said:


> We have seen Naruto deal with a relatively low scale Mokuton (the one that Madara used) and the result was that he could counter it only thanks to the time that he had for prepare the defense, a luxury that he won't have if the Mokuton appear from below his feet, has greater scale, and the enemy doesn't stay still and watch him do whatever he wants.


Except that naruto wasn't a sensor and was a mere base clone, the naruto in this thread is the greatest sensor in the manga multiplied by the second greatest sensor in the manga.  And of course that's outside of feats.

oh yeah and since when could hashirama move while making one of his large mokutons?  Every time he does those techniques or while the techniques are growing, he stands still with his hands clasped together while the mokuton grows.  So more mokutons while FTW is growing is an impossibility.



blk said:


> In this last chapter we saw Naruto being attacked by a big amount of Mokuton coming out of the very place where he was standing; what happened was exactly what i had already suggested many times before (in various Hashi or Mads vs Naruto threads), which is that Naruto got overwhelmed because of the lack of an effective and immediate defense able to deal with Mokuton.


That reasoning is so ridiculously fallacious.  Naruto was not only the biggest priority of the tree, but he started at the center of it and almost succeeded in escaping it.  That tree is not only hundreds of times larger than anything hashirama has ever made (yes even shinsuusenjuu) but it absorbs chakra faster than mokuryuu by simply touching its opponent.

And finally the obvious: naruto getting overwhelmed by the most powerful being in narutoverse's mokuton =/= naruto getting overwhelmed by hashi's mokuton



blk said:


> Something that needs to be said is that the tree's branches have chakra absorption while Flower World's branches don't.
> However, FW has the pollen that can compesate for that; this means that if Naruto doesn't launch a Bijuudama into his own position (meaning that he will damage himself) fast enough (which is not granted, considering how fast the pollen affect people) he will be put to sleep.


Pollen doesn't affect people within the kurama avatar, do not bring up points you know the answer to.  Naruto can jump into the clouds and launch a bijuudama, and if you've read the freekin manga, you'd know that FTW only sprouts from beneath the mokuton user and then travels out.  So there is no surprise attacking naruto, the technique comes naruto nukes it.



blk said:


> In the case that Naruto counter the jutsu, he will have wasted time on dealing with the Mokuton and thus permitting Hashirama to do more jutsu (therefore compromising Naruto's situation even more) with impunity.


a single bijuudama blows up flower tree world, naruto rapidfires those.  one bomb destroys FTW, the other 4 destroy hashirama or push him to use shinsuusenjuu.


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## blk (Sep 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> in a serious battle, Naruto would have used ninjutsu and fodderized mokuryu 11 times over so nope.



I was referring to an hypothetical case in which the dragon already restrained Naruto.



> Except that naruto wasn't a sensor and was a mere base clone, the naruto in this thread is the greatest sensor in the manga multiplied by the second greatest sensor in the manga.  And of course that's outside of feats.
> 
> oh yeah and since when could hashirama move while making one of his large mokutons?  Every time he does those techniques or while the techniques are growing, he stands still with his hands clasped together while the mokuton grows.  So more mokutons while FTW is growing is an impossibility.



Central panel [1]. 
By extension, we can also use Yamato, Obito and Zetsu feats [2 ; 3 ; 4 ; 5]. There are probably more, but this should suffice.





> That reasoning is so ridiculously fallacious.  Naruto was not only the biggest priority of the tree, but he started at the center of it and almost succeeded in escaping it.  That tree is not only hundreds of times larger than anything hashirama has ever made (yes even shinsuusenjuu) but it absorbs chakra faster than mokuryuu by simply touching its opponent.
> 
> And finally the obvious: naruto getting overwhelmed by the most powerful being in narutoverse's mokuton =/= naruto getting overwhelmed by hashi's mokuton



I never denied this.
Also, do not ignore that Naruto was overwhelmed by a bunch of branches, not the whole tree.


By the way, a reasoning is deemed as fallacious (i.e based on a fallacy) when it lacks logical validity.
What i wrote wasn't even a reasoning, but an observation of what happened.



> Pollen doesn't affect people within the kurama avatar, do not bring up points you know the answer to.  Naruto can jump into the clouds and launch a bijuudama, and if you've read the freekin manga, you'd know that FTW only sprouts from beneath the mokuton user and then travels out.  So there is no surprise attacking naruto, the technique comes naruto nukes it.
> 
> a single bijuudama blows up flower tree world, naruto rapidfires those.  one bomb destroys FTW, the other 4 destroy hashirama or push him to use shinsuusenjuu.



And... why should the pollen not affect who is inside the Kurama avatar?
Does it have some kind of filter? I don't think so.

Mokuton can be controlled as one wishes [6 ; 7 ; 8 ; 9 ; 10 ; 11 ; 12].
It can be made from under the feet of the enemy, or on the sides, or manipulated into certain forms, etc..

And even if it couldn't, with a 50 meters of starting distance it wouldn't matter considering the scale of FW.

Naruto wasn't able to avoid a bunch of branches, it is unlikely that he would be able to avoid a city-level Mokuton coming from below his feet.
If he charges a Bijuudama, he will have to nuke his own position.

If any Bijuudama arrives to Hashirama (unlikely) he can defend himself with the Mokuton shield and/or slip through the earth in extreme cases (like Madara, Yamato and Zetsu can do) [13 ; 14].


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 11, 2013)

Naruto rapes Hashirama. He's on another level at this point. SM Renzoku Bijudama = GG.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 11, 2013)

blk said:


> I was referring to an hypothetical case in which the dragon already restrained Naruto.


i hope you mean biting him.




blk said:


> Central panel [1].
> By extension, we can also use Yamato, Obito and Zetsu feats [2 ; 3 ; 4 ; 5]. There are probably more, but this should suffice.



how does any of that suffice?  Yamato makes a clone and then has to stand there and hold his hands together in order to grow wood.

and every time obito grows wood it's directly from his body which is something hashirama doesn't do to make large scale mokutons.






blk said:


> I never denied this.
> Also, do not ignore that Naruto was overwhelmed by a bunch of branches, not the whole tree.


He was eventually overwhelmed by a bunch of branches after nearly escaping the entire technique.



blk said:


> By the way, a reasoning is deemed as fallacious (i.e based on a fallacy) when it lacks logical validity.
> What i wrote wasn't even a reasoning, but an observation of what happened.


You were using that observation of what happened in order to reason that hashirama's wood would be able to accomplish something similar.  So you weren't just making observations you were trying to argue a point based off of the observation thus, it's fallacious.




blk said:


> And... why should the pollen not affect who is inside the Kurama avatar?
> Does it have some kind of filter? I don't think so.


Lets see, the avatar fully blocks out fire and blocks out acid.  So we know that it's water and air-tight.  So there's your reasoning.

Now what's YOUR reasoning on why  the pollen should go through the kurama avatar?



blk said:


> Mokuton can be controlled as one wishes [6 ; 7 ; 8 ; 9 ; 10 ; 11 ; 12].
> It can be made from under the feet of the enemy, or on the sides, or manipulated into certain forms, etc..


sure, but none of those mokutons are flower tree world which like jukai kotan comes from the users's feet and spreads out across the AoE.




blk said:


> And even if it couldn't, with a 50 meters of starting distance it wouldn't matter considering the scale of FW.


Ei and oonoki escaped that technique at a distance of 5 meters.  FTW offensively doesn't do jack against an avatar that can block a juubilaser and naruto is the best sensor in the manga.  Compared to the current top tiers, the scale of FTW isn't even that great, it's barely larger than the juubi with all of its tails spread out.



blk said:


> Naruto wasn't able to avoid a bunch of branches, it is unlikely that he would be able to avoid a city-level Mokuton coming from below his feet.
> If he charges a Bijuudama, he will have to nuke his own position.


1) naruto was almost able to escape the juubi's mokuton
2) FTW doesn't have chakra sucking abilities which is the primary reason for why naruto even was restrained by it
3) The giant tree possesses an AoE thousands of times larger than FTW
4) Naruto can JUMP and fire the bijuudama
5) Naruto wouldn't even be harmed by the blast radius of a standard dama considering his juubi laser feat.
6) Naruto those branches spread magnitudes faster than flower tree world did



blk said:


> If any Bijuudama arrives to Hashirama (unlikely) he can defend himself with the Mokuton shield and/or slip through the earth in extreme cases (like Madara, Yamato and Zetsu can do) [13 ; 14].


slipping into earth won'd do else he would have done it against Madara instead of deflecting the dama.
Mokuton shield does not have the feats to tank a direct hit from a bijuudama, at best it would be the blast radius.


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## SSMG (Sep 11, 2013)

This is close but i don't think hashi has an answer for a super sage bijuu dama.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Sep 13, 2013)

Hashirama rapes. He already blocked Bijuudama and redirected it without a single scratch from a 100% Kyuubi.

Unless you think adding Sage Mode doubles the power of the Kyuubi, then Naruto simply has no offense that can get through Mokuton.

Not to mention Hashirama spammed down enough Mokuton restraints which put down the Juubi.

And unless Naruto somehow has PS covering his Kyuubi, he can't do anything against Buddha Statue.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 13, 2013)

Trolololz

Trolololz for dayz.

I just love it when people just barge into these threads late and try to restart all the arguments by spouting nonsense already addressed many pages prior.

I've been around this block for too long. I know how it works.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 13, 2013)

People still hyping up hashirama catching a normal bijuudama from a mindless kurama? Guess i can believe it.

Naruto can make a bijuudama like 5x the size of the bijuudama hashirama used hobi to withstand. Hobi's best feat do not stack up. Then add in sage empowerment and hashirama is taking on something you would need a six yang red barrier to survive.

We have already seen naruto use shunshin to blow up wood dragon and to escape restraint(ah well gate of the great god) so no need to hype those up.


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## egressmadara (Sep 14, 2013)

Yep. Hashirama loses.


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## Csdabest (Sep 14, 2013)

Madara already used the weakest version of the mokuton dragon to seal and suppress kyuubi chakra while Naruto is in Bijuu mode. Sage Mode Hashirama is just gonna spank Naruto even worst. Hashirama has as much chakra as 100% Kyuubi plus he has Sage mode and has the technique/kekkei genkai that deals with bijuu chakra and suppression.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 14, 2013)

Oh God stop bringing up Mokuton Dragon. Naruto will not make the same mistake twice.

Once it charges at him a clone with smash its head off with a Odama Rasegan.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Sep 14, 2013)

The fuck?

Odama Rasengan will smash Hashirama's wood, when Hashirama already caught a Bijuudama and redirected it at Madara?


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Madara already used the weakest version of the mokuton dragon to seal and suppress kyuubi chakra while Naruto is in Bijuu mode.


KN1 lee already bisected Edo madara.



Csdabest said:


> Sage Mode Hashirama is just gonna spank Naruto even worst.


BM Naruto is just gunna spank Madara even worse.



Csdabest said:


> Hashirama has as much chakra as 100% Kyuubi plus he has Sage mode and has the technique/kekkei genkai that deals with bijuu chakra and suppression.


BM Naruto has as much chakra as 1,000+ KN1 lees plus he has way more speed and power.


----------



## Shattering (Sep 15, 2013)

Hashirama wins this effortlesly, Bijuu damas are not a problem for him at all, his mokuton monsters and specially the wood dragon can suck Naruto's chakra and oh well, his fucking Budha can grab or smash him like if he was an ant.

There's nothing Naruto can do that Hashirama can't handle instantly.

Hashirama wins 10/10


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 16, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> *We don't have to wait a damn week. Shit, its so fucking obvious Naruto is above & beyond these dudes.*
> 
> With KCM Naruto was throwing COFRS, which was the size of a Bijuu's upper body.
> By simple scaling, with BM that shit would have gotten twice the size.
> ...



Lol at the Bold. No wonder why so many Naruto fans were no where to be seen last week. So far beyond these dudes? Yet got fodderized by a tree, unlike the rest of " these dudes"


----------



## Jak N Blak (Sep 16, 2013)

Oh Lord.
Oh Lordy dippity Doo.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 16, 2013)

LOL At calling the Divine Shinju "a tree" as if it's a detriment.


----------



## Mofo (Sep 16, 2013)

Naruto wins this even  in SM, let alone BM or BSM. Lol


----------



## Veracity (Sep 17, 2013)

Mofo said:


> Naruto wins this even  in SM, let alone BM or BSM. Lol



GTFO with that shit. In SM he gets bended  over and raped. 
BM is highly debatable.
BSM should have a comfortable advantage.


----------



## Krippy (Sep 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yeah he's that fast. It isn't like Shinsuusenju is agile.



Nope, one of those thousand hands grabs him and annihilates him on the way up 



> Naruto crossed a battlefield in an instant, countering 5 mountain busters in the process. If Hashirama is close enough for his statue to hit Naruto, he in Naruto's range.



And naruto is in range of thousands of Mountain crushing fists 



> I'm sure the difference between Lightened Ei and a Sage Enhanced BM Naruto makes up for the support of Mei.



Nah, he wont be distracted fighting naruto 



> I don't see how it's overrated. No other top tier has the speed to reflect 5 Bijuudama just by running. Even a speedster like Gai was in awe.



It's overrated because every top level shinobi has a counter for a possible speed gap

(Susano'o, general durability, Sharingan, hax wood ) 



> And Shunshin is a Ninjutsu, just like Mokuton is a Ninjutsu. Is Ninjutsu overrated in Top-Tier battles?



It's importance is overrated, not it's general usage 




> Now Shodai's stomped in turn by the Sage of Six Paths reincarnate.



top lel

Whatever helps you sleep at night 




> Yep, so the Juubi was bothered more by super Amaterasu than it was by Bee's + Naruto's super bijuudama



Yup.




> And the Juubi. Perfect Susano'o has done nothing like that.



So something with superior cutting feats can't cut through the same material?

dat reaching.



> Getting Rotation-ed by the Hyuuga has nothing to do with its durability.



fodder tails confirmed fodder.



> When Hashirama brings out Shisuusenju, Naruto flickers to its flank, similar to what Ei did to Sasuke, just on a larger scale. The statue is too sluggish to turn around in time to stop the Senpou: Bijuudama now aimed at it's head.
> 
> GG



Hashirama catches the Bijuudama with Mokujin in the meantime and shoves it back down his throat and proceeds to flatten him like a flapjack once he is within range

GG


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 17, 2013)

One more week.
And all the nonsense must CEASE.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 17, 2013)

Lol, Naruto speedblitzes Shodai and completely annihilates him just like the INC RS Obito did.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Sep 17, 2013)

After this chapter I don't wanna hear anymore shit about chakra suppression.

Not even Juubi's suppression can keep him down and out. Naruto spawned Kurama right fucking BACK BITCH.


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Sep 18, 2013)

Namikaze Minato said:


> *Conditions:*
> 
> Naruto is already fused with Pa & Ma before this battle start as Kurama have allowed it, and assume that all of them will work in sync as a team.
> *Restrictions:* None.
> ...



Naruto in just Bijuu Mode took on five freaking Bijuu at once... so I think Just BM is a great challenge for SM hashirama... But now, Bijuu Sage mdoe naruto, with JINK power that hahsirama cannot suppress due to it being riddled with Pure nature energy gives naruto the advantage he needs...

And the buddha summon is Sm hashirama's maximum power and ultimate technique while naruto with Bijuu sage mode can move around at high speeds to dodge the Buddha while attacking with multiple bijuudama to do tons of damage...
Coupled with the use of the sage frogs to use frog sons, 4 boss summons with gamakichi now all using sage techniques and many kage bushin to attack hashirama directly...

I think Bijuu sage mode Naruto stands a great chance at beating SM hashirama...


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 18, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Naruto in just Bijuu Mode took on five freaking Bijuu at once... so I think Just BM is a great challenge for SM hashirama... But now, Bijuu Sage mdoe naruto, with JINK power that hahsirama cannot suppress due to it being riddled with Pure nature energy gives naruto the advantage he needs...
> 
> And the buddha summon is Sm hashirama's maximum power and ultimate technique while naruto with Bijuu sage mode can move around at high speeds to dodge the Buddha while attacking with multiple bijuudama to do tons of damage...
> Coupled with the use of the sage frogs to use frog sons, 4 boss summons with gamakichi now all using sage techniques and many kage bushin to attack hashirama directly...
> ...



Do my eyes deceive me?

Is Dragon Sage Ash giving a Pro-Naruto argument? 

Has Juubito already case Muugen Tsukuyomi?


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Sep 18, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Do my eyes deceive me?
> 
> Is Dragon Sage Ash giving a Pro-Naruto argument?
> 
> Has Juubito already case Muugen Tsukuyomi?



Since when have I argued against naruto when he did not deserve to be recognized as he is... Not as people want him to be...
Anyways, the use of Nature energy not only increases his destructive power to take on the buddha summon, but takes away hashirama's wood dragon's ability to suppress and control the Kyuubi power naruto uses since it is riddled with nature energy...

Pretty much in this fight, it will come down to Buddha summon Vs Mobile Bijuu sage mode naruto firing off bijuudama and using nature energy as a weapon...


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 18, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Since when have I argued against naruto when he did not deserve to be recognized as he is... Not as people want him to be...



I'd like to say since December 2012, but definitely at least around the time you started saying KCM Naruto is slower than V1 Ei and Sasuke.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Sep 18, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I'd like to say since December 2012, but definitely at least around the time you started saying KCM Naruto is slower than V1 Ei and Sasuke.



Lol, was naruto able to get past V1 raikage? NO! He Consistently failed while sasuke easily did on his first try a while ago... 

Did naruto need a full speed head start just to avoid a single V2 punch? YES... Naruto was not standing still like he was against V1 raikage... Naruto took off at full speed ahead of the raikage which gave him the advantage to dodge the single punch using a shushin becuase hitting a moving target is way hrder the hitting a stationary one... And the question of whether the raikage even wanted to hit him is called into question because even KB could not figure out the intent of rai's actions...

CONCLUSION:
I am sorry, but consistent feats do not lie And circumstances should not be ignored too... Naruto is not really ANY faster then V1 raikage in KCM while sasuke did easily outmaneuver raikage using V1 and both arms back then two. SO sasuke is a little bit faster then V1 raikage, thus likely a little bit faster then KCM naruto as well...


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 18, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Lol, was naruto able to get past V1 raikage? NO! He Consistently failed while sasuke easily did on his first try a while ago...


Unlike Sasuke, Naruto wasn't _attacking_ V1 A. Sasuke never get passed him either. Naruto was just amping up his speed without making any offensive moves against A.


> Did naruto need a full speed head start just to avoid a single V2 punch? YES... Naruto was not standing still like he was against V1 raikage... Naruto took off at full speed ahead of the raikage which gave him the advantage to dodge the single punch using a shushin becuase hitting a moving target is way hrder the hitting a stationary one... And the question of whether the raikage even wanted to hit him is called into question because even KB could not figure out the intent of rai's actions...


...no, Naruto was running to take A's attention off of Tsunade. Naruto then practically stopped and used his maximum speed to avoid A's punch just like Minato did. And the manga itself says you're wrong: A says Naruto is faster than him. Deal with it.


> CONCLUSION:
> I am sorry, but consistent feats do not lie And circumstances should not be ignored too... Naruto is not really ANY faster then V1 raikage in KCM while sasuke did easily outmaneuver raikage using V1 and both arms back then two. SO sasuke is a little bit faster then V1 raikage, thus likely a little bit faster then KCM naruto as well...


Wait, Sasuke _meeting a head long charge_ with his Sharingan reading every movement from A means he's _faster_ than V1 A? Not even close. Hell, A didn't even _try to fucking dodge_, allowing his armor to tank the attack. A didn't even say 'wow your speed is nearly as good as mine', no, he complimented Sasuke's penetrative power with the Chidori.

In other words, you're wrong.


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