# Dumbledore vs. Jiraiya



## kumabear (Jul 17, 2009)

Hyperbolic Time Chamber. 
Start 50 Meters apart.
No Knowledge.
No PIS. (Jiraiya )
Bloodlust on.
No Ma/Pa or Summons allowed.

Hrmm.

Edit.

Scenario 2. Jiraiya given full reign with Ma and Pa/Summons.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 17, 2009)

If we ignore speed, dumbledore takes this with a massive rape.
If we don't, Jiraya takes this 13/20


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Jul 17, 2009)

Jiraiya shoots hair needles at dumbledore, who then transmutes them into sand, only for the ground beneath him to opens a swamp to the underworld. Dumbledore apparates and the process begins again.


----------



## Bart (Jul 17, 2009)

Dumbledore wins.

Jiraiya entering Sage Mode and using Swamp of the Underworld, could potentially end the battle, but it depends on which spells Dumbledore calls fourth or how fast Jiraiya can enter Sage Mode.

Theoretically, couldn't Dumbledore unleashed Transfiguration upon Jiraiya, considering the quickness in utterances in which Dumbledore has shown within the books and films alike.

If Dumbledore uses Legilimency then he will possibly gain victory, as Jiraiya admitted that he is not proficient in the art of Genjutsu, and Legilimency is a little more advanced, but yet rather similar.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 17, 2009)

Jiraya entering sage mode will last about less than a second since he can't sumon pa and ma, and while he does it, dumbledore sets his hair on permanent fire.
He has to sunshin off the bat, but he'll probably just stab him since he's going for the kill, not for the gore, so dumbledore will just aparate to the other side of the planet, heal himself, make himself imperceptible for all muggles, and while Jiraya is scartching his nogger wondering where the hell did Dumbledore go, he teleports back, and turns him into a white poodle.


----------



## Bart (Jul 17, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Jiraya entering sage mode will last about less than a second since he can't sumon pa and ma, and while he does it, dumbledore sets his hair on permanent fire.
> He has to sunshin off the bat, but he'll probably just stab him since he's going for the kill, not for the gore, so dumbledore will just aparate to the other side of the planet, heal himself, make himself imperceptible for all muggles, and while Jiraya is scartching his nogger wondering where the hell did Dumbledore go, he teleports back, and turns him into a white poodle.



Ah, yes, the lack of Pa and Ma will definitely have some influence within this battle.


----------



## kumabear (Jul 17, 2009)

Second Scenario added.


----------



## Bart (Jul 17, 2009)

kumabear said:


> Second Scenario added.



Jiraiya wins. However, I will state the difficulties in which Jiraiya will have within this battle.

The problem may be catching Dumbledore, as he was shown to be rather fast, within Deathly Hallows in disarming Snape, whilst still teleporting. No opponent within the Naruto Universe has shown the means of teleportation, apart from Yondaime and Madara, thus Jiraiya will have problems with this.

You do remember what was said about Young Dumbledore within Deathly Hallows?

"I examined him personally in Transfiguration and Charms when he did NEWT's... He did things with a wand I'd never seen before." - Griselda Marchbanks, Deathly Hallows.

Becuase of Ma and Pa involved,  Legilimency may be lessened, but don't forget that Jiraiya knows nothing about such skills which does give Dumbledore the advantage.

The presence of Fawkes, which he could call, may heal serious injuries.


----------



## HumanWine (Jul 17, 2009)

Failaiya could win if he's able to buy enough time with the help of summons. Ma and Pa spam summons/ jutsu while Jiraiya either goes into Failmode Hermit Mode and attempts to blitz. He'd be better off hiding in the shadow of one of the summons then blitzing Dumbledore. 

No summons is all a matter of Dumbledore keeping distance and tiring Jiraiya out; the distance and terrain are out of Jiraiya's favor.


----------



## Monzaemon (Jul 17, 2009)

What the hell is this? Jiraiya speed blitzes. HP characters aren't even peak human in reflexes/movement speed.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 17, 2009)

Jiraya breaks Dumbledore's neck in less than 3 seconds.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Jul 17, 2009)

Old ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) goes to cast a spell and then finds himself blown to bits by a Rasengan.

Nice try though.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 17, 2009)

Dumbledore levetates J-diddy right off the bat and repeatedly smashes him headfirst into the ground.


----------



## ∅ (Jul 17, 2009)

Before Dumbledore can utter a word his throat will be filled by spikes created out of Jiraiya's hair. Even Ma toad would take this, she killed that invisible chameleon summon by piercing it with her tongue.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Jul 17, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Dumbledore levetates J-diddy right off the bat and repeatedly smashes him headfirst into the ground.



Jiraiya shoots tiny white hair needles into Dumblefag's eyes, throat and hand.


----------



## ∅ (Jul 17, 2009)

In no way shape or form do I see Dumbledore dodging a shit-load of sharp thin--barely visible--projectiles.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 17, 2009)

If speed is equalized, Dumby rapes. If not, Jiraiya rapes.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 17, 2009)

Time works different;y in the hyperbolic time chamber, so Sage mode should last much longer.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 17, 2009)

Jiraiya sinks himself into his own Swamp of the Underworld for being in the presence of a much better character.


----------



## Deleted member 45015 (Jul 17, 2009)

I reckon Dumbledore could take this.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 17, 2009)

Monzaemon said:


> What the hell is this? Jiraiya speed blitzes. HP characters aren't even peak human in reflexes/movement speed.



Word of God places Wizards above human in reflexes actually.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 17, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Time works different;y in the hyperbolic time chamber, so Sage mode should last much longer.



There's also no nature chakra in the hyperbolic chamber, so jiraya shouldn't be able to enter it at all

Also, Jiraya can't sumon from dimensions away, so the only thing he's got going for him is the rasengan and the fireballs.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jul 17, 2009)

Hmm bloodlust is on, which means that Dumbledore hits Jiraiya with a Avada Kedavra right out of the gate.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 17, 2009)

Not really. Dumbledore isn't exactly a "too goodie to kill" he's more of a "I can do better than that" Since his major is transfiguration and everything, I say he turns jiraya's hair into poisonous snakes


----------



## Trism (Jul 17, 2009)

Uh, Dumbledore also has teleportation to deal with Jiraiya's speed.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 17, 2009)

And an age-line barrier to handle whatever he dishes out


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 17, 2009)

Less than three seconds? If jiraya let's the first second slide, he's allready dead.


----------



## God (Jul 17, 2009)

Dumbledore proceeds to rape in three seconds, which thanks to Hyperbolic Time Chamber's effect, as someone rightly put it, will make it seem like 9000 millennia, even Szayel would be feeling sorry for that toadfuck.


----------



## Z (Jul 17, 2009)

Dumbledore.


----------



## MidnightToker426 (Jul 18, 2009)

Unless Jiraiya runs up and stabs his ass, Dumbledore has it. 


But, I don't think Jiraiya needs Ma and Pa for this, Dumbledore is a very old man with zero to none physical aptitude, Jiraiya could technically jst rasengan him before Dumbledore could even say Avada


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2009)

Dumbledore turns invisible so that Jiraiya can't find him, at least, not in time before he gets turned into an insect.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Jul 18, 2009)

HumanWine said:


> Narutowank.


Appeal to riddicule.


Narcissus said:


> Dumbledore turns invisible so that Jiraiya can't find him, at least, not in time before he gets turned into an insect.


He can't turn himself invisible.

And nowhere is it shown or hinted at being able to transfigure magical creatures. I'm sure chakra gives Jiraiya the equivalency rule here. 


Banhammer: Where is the word of god on reflexes?


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Appeal to riddicule.
> 
> He can't turn himself invisible.



I'll admit that my memory on the first book isn't at it's best, but I recall him telling Harry he doesn't need a cloak to turn invisible. In fact, I think it was even mentioned again in the 7th book. I'll get them and look again.




> And nowhere is it shown or hinted at being able to transfigure magical creatures. I'm sure chakra gives Jiraiya the equivalency rule here.



Are you trying to call Jiraiya a "magical creature" because of his chakra? Pitiful defense. Chakra is not magic, and Malfoy, who is magical, being a wizard and all, got transfigured into a ferret.


----------



## Gnome (Jul 18, 2009)

MidnightToker426 said:


> Unless Jiraiya runs up and stabs his ass, Dumbledore has it.
> 
> 
> But, I don't think Jiraiya needs Ma and Pa for this, Dumbledore is a very old man with zero to none physical aptitude, Jiraiya could technically jst rasengan him before Dumbledore could even say Avada



Dumbledore can cast spells silently. he just has to flick his wrist faster then the slow ass naruto verse.


----------



## Kimimaro (Jul 18, 2009)

Jiraiya rapes before Dumbledore can cast any spell.


----------



## Bart (Jul 18, 2009)

Lucaniel said:


> If speed is equalized, Dumby rapes. If not, Jiraiya rapes.



Very much agreed


----------



## Tsukiyo (Jul 18, 2009)

this is an epic thread.....but you should of made it....Tsuchikage 
Look at this post for starters

with jiraiya's stamina i think he would be able to pwn dumbledore before anything can really happen


----------



## Fei (Jul 18, 2009)

It just comes down to whether or not Jiraiya can blitz and OHKO before Dumbledore can react.  I tend to believe he can, can someone provide any evidence that indicates that wizards are above peak human in reaction time?


----------



## Bart (Jul 18, 2009)

A display of Dumbledore's speed of offense, as well the combined usage of Apparation (teleportation) and Magic:

"The adult Snape was panting, turning on the spot, his wand gripped tightly in his hand, waiting for something or for someone ... his fear infected Harry, too, even though he knew that he could not be harmed, and he looked over his shoulder, wondering what it was that Snape was waiting for - 

Then a blinding, jagged jet of white light flew through the air: Harry thought of lightning, but Snape dropped to his knees and his wand had flown out of his hand.... Any sound of Dumbledore Apparating had been drowned by the sound of the wind in the branches." - Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (UK), The Prince's Tale, Page 543.


----------



## Fei (Jul 18, 2009)

That passage doesn't give us any real defined information though and its not relevant in the context of this fight........

Here they're starting fifty meters apart and in view of each other.  If Dumbledore can react to Jiraiya charging him he wins, if he can't then he loses simple as that.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 18, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Appeal to riddicule.


Has to be there ridicule to appeal to


> He can't turn himself invisible.


If there is one thing he can do, is turn himself invisible.

Also, Muggle Imperctibility Spell is one of the most basic things they sell at Fred and Geroge's. If the Headmaster of Hogwarts, who keeps that charm on the school itself can't perform a basic spell Ron and Hermione can, then he should be out of a job.



> And nowhere is it shown or hinted at being able to transfigure magical creatures. I'm sure chakra gives Jiraiya the equivalency rule here.


There is nothing magical about Jiraya, but yes, wizards can trransfigurate magical beings. Malfoy into a ferret, crouch into a bone, all the animagi ever, etc..


> Banhammer: Where is the word of god on reflexes?


Website conference. I don't have the transcripts to be honnest, but you can look for them in most fansites.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jul 18, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Time works different;y in the hyperbolic time chamber, so Sage mode should last much longer.



What? Where did you get that from? 30 minutes is 30 minutes...


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 18, 2009)

Again, Sage Mode is impossible in the HTC


----------



## Omnirix (Jul 18, 2009)

O golly.........they both die in Hyperbolic Time Chamber because its temperature ranges from 223 to -40 degrees F and have a gravity 10x of that of earth's.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 18, 2009)

But temperature regulating charms and gravity fuckery is basic stuff for Albus


----------



## Omnirix (Jul 18, 2009)

I don't remember any spells that can manipulate gravity or temperature.


----------



## Bart (Jul 18, 2009)

Omnirix said:


> I don't remember any spells that can manipulate gravity or temperature.



Levicorpus and Wingardium Leviosa can indeed manipulate the gravity of an opponent, to an extent.

Dumbledore manipulated heat within Half-Blood Prince when unleashing Incendio upon the Inferi.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Jul 18, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Has to be there ridicule to appeal to


He's waving off the arguments by calling them "Narutowank".



> If there is one thing he can do, is turn himself invisible.


Sorry, no he can't. Even if he could, Pa toad stabs him through the throat with his tongue. 



> Also, Muggle Imperctibility Spell is one of the most basic things they sell at Fred and Geroge's. If the Headmaster of Hogwarts, who keeps that charm on the school itself can't perform a basic spell Ron and Hermione can, then he should be out of a job.


Evidence this will work on Jiraiya?



> There is nothing magical about Jiraya, but yes, wizards can trransfigurate magical beings. Malfoy into a ferret, crouch into a bone, all the animagi ever, etc..


Conceded.


> Website conference. I don't have the transcripts to be honnest, but you can look for them in most fansites.


No, I want a quote. I saw this in the last debate, and nobody coughed up a quote. 



Bartallen2 said:


> Levicorpus and Wingardium Leviosa can indeed manipulate the gravity of an opponent, to an extent.



No it can't, it's simple levitation. Leviosa, Levitation. To imply gravity manipulation as in "crush yourself under your own weight" needs more evidence.



> Dumbledore manipulated heat within Half-Blood Prince when unleashing Incendio upon the Inferi.


And why would this be any better than a plain old Katon jutsu?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2009)

Levicorpus is more telekinesis than gravity manipulation.



> causes a victim to be hoisted into the air and dangle upside-down



If it were GM you'd think they'd just randomly float into the air.


And Incendio is fire generation not heat manipulation.


----------



## Omnirix (Jul 18, 2009)

To conjure those spells you need to speak. How can you talk or move your jaw up in a place where the gravity is 10x? XD


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jul 18, 2009)

Omnirix said:


> To conjure those spells you need to speak. How can you talk or move your jaw up in a place where the gravity is 10x? XD



Actually Dumbledore, doesn't need to speak for his fire spells.


----------



## Omnirix (Jul 18, 2009)

so Dumbledore is like Yoda who uses something thats the equivalent of force valor. In that case he takes this one with ease cuz I don't see Jiraiya moving with 10x gravity. Dumbledore can just one shot Jiraiya.


----------



## ChINaMaN1472 (Jul 18, 2009)

But doesn't Dumbledore need to flick his wrist?
He's an old man, would he be able to flick his wrist in 10x gravity?
Jiraya's old too, but at least he's got some physical prowless


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 18, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> He's waving off the arguments by calling them "Narutowank".


Eh



> Sorry, no he can't. Even if he could, Pa toad stabs him through the throat with his tongue.


Yes he can. Invisibility charms are like third grade stuff, there is direct quotes of "Oh I can make myself invisible with no cloaks" and the fact that this is barely the spell in question


> Evidence this will work on Jiraiya?


It works on muggles. Evidence that Jiraya has magical powers or an extra sense that allows him to see magic 



> No, I want a quote. I saw this in the last debate, and nobody coughed up a quote.


Points at username.
I assure you, if there is someone who dosen't lie when he should in this forum is me.
Don't make me go dig through those things again.


> No it can't, it's simple levitation. Leviosa, Levitation. To imply gravity manipulation as in "crush yourself under your own weight" needs more evidence.


A reverse encantation of the _Deprimo_ spell. Hardly out of this world.



> And why would this be any better than a plain old Katon jutsu?


Because, in the first book or two, it's stated as even the most basic of all competent witches or wizards should be able to push fire away
In fact, there used to be a witch that let herself get caught and burned at the stake for shits and giggles seventeen times or something.

Glacio aura and Hipothermia controll Charms should have him covered.

Also, if you can just levitate, without anything else, (read, Wingardium leviosa, Don't read Levicorpus) you can counteract gravity. It's not evidence that you can counteract 10* gravity like nothing, but it's a valid way to prevent yourself from being crushed under your own weight, since you are countering the downward forces


----------



## Elite Ace (Jul 18, 2009)

I don't get it 

Jiraya has superhuman speed, atleast more than 200m/h, possibly below supersonic in his base. Is strong enough to flick Naruto through a forest with minumum effort, which means he has superstrength in his base form.

So what is stopping him from punching Dumbledore's head of tight off the bat before Dumbledore can even react ?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2009)

Character Induced Stupidity.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 18, 2009)

Because Dumbledore speedblitzes highly trained humans aswell, in the HTC Jiraya can't do anything that fast while dumbledore only needs to think, and flicking people off =/= any actuall feat. Anime's do it all the time. Goku powering up for some reason causes the floor to colapse downwards, Zuko shoves someone across a ballroom, and don't get me started on Luffy.
See Power = Weight trope.


----------



## Unknown (Jul 18, 2009)

Dumbeldore  took  his wand out and shooted 4 wizzards before all of them could react in the 5 book.
So Dumbeldores speed to uses his wands an spells is well above human.

In the 3 book It was said that wizards laugh of guns and bullets, so is plausible to supose that they have supersonic reaction speed.
They indeed dodge spells that move at hypersonic speed Kinsgley's patronus traveeled from Lonod to Ron's house in seconds, for exmaple.

And Dumbeldore has the elder wand, so any spell seen, that have been done by other wizards, done by Dumbeldore will be many times more powerful.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 18, 2009)

I remember Fred or George laughing a butcher knife ron hurled off an inch from his face, and transfigurated it into a paper plane.
Casually, like his brother didn't just try to kill him.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Jul 18, 2009)

Hard to say how Jiraiya would be affected in the HTC. If he can't speedblitz Dumbledore he's done for.


----------



## HumanWine (Jul 18, 2009)

To the poster you got when I referred to one of his posts as "narutowank", the post was wank. All the posts I quoted blatantly said Jiraiya would speedblitz/ fire attacks that move faster than Dumbledore can think/talk which is complete bs. And these posts were ignoring the fact that Dumbledore can teleport around with the greatest of ease, perform spells without talking, turn invisible, and read minds.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2009)

"I don't need a cloak to become invisible."

HPatSS The Mirror of Erised, page 213.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 18, 2009)

Why do some of you not understand that Dumbledore has no superhuman reaction feats while shitty genin have them?

Jiraiya shits on Dumbledore. Until you can so me something that proves Dumbledore could follow the movements of people who can move so fast they are invisible to the naked eye, Dumbledore loses. Hard.



Banhammer said:


> Word of God places Wizards above human in reflexes actually.


Word of god says Haku is lightspeed. Feats plox.

Man, I can't believe *I *have to resort to defending the Narutoverse because nobody here has enough common sense to know that Jiraiya is too super human for Dumbledore to deal with. Hell, Dumbledore isn't even a peak human.

Gentlemen, I know we all hate the Narutoverse but it'll be a sad day when normal humans could beat them.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 18, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Dumbeldore  took  his wand out and shooted 4 wizzards before all of them could react in the 5 book.
> So Dumbeldores speed to uses his wands an spells is well above human.
> 
> In the 3 book It was said that wizards laugh of guns and bullets, so is plausible to supose that they have supersonic reaction speed.
> ...



Yeah Zetta, so have at it.
Jiraya has no notable speed feat. Kinda happens when your whole strategy is sumon giant toads and stay there while they do all the work


----------



## Shock Therapy (Jul 18, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Yeah Zetta, so have at it.
> Jiraya has no notable speed feat. Kinda happens when your whole strategy is sumon giant toads and stay there while they do all the work



Nah his strategy all along was for naruto to be great. the toads were stepping stones. why else do u think he made a book called the tales of a gutsy ninja.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 18, 2009)

Because he summons Toad's Guts?


----------



## Shock Therapy (Jul 18, 2009)

oh i saw what u did there


----------



## Zetta (Jul 18, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Yeah Zetta, so have at it.
> Jiraya has no notable speed feat. Kinda happens when your whole strategy is sumon giant toads and stay there while they do all the work



He reacted to the three Peins and even speedblitzed one casually in Senin Mode.

Also, Genins move at speeds that can't be seen by the eye. 

A quick search gave me the minimum speed for that, which is 220miles per hour or 354km/h.

That's 354 000/3600 to find it in m/s. Which is 98.3m/s. Let's assume Jiraiya is as fast as a genin ().

Dumbledore is an old man who is certainly not in peak condition. But let's assume he is. Let's even assume he's a peak human.

According to Guiness, the record is 10.35 m/s for highest runningspeed.

This means that Genin Jiraiya is about 10 times faster than Dumbledore.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 18, 2009)

Zetta said:


> He reacted to the three Peins and even speedblitzed one casually in Senin Mode.
> 
> Also, Genins move at speeds that can't be seen by the eye.
> 
> ...



But their spells are hypersonic


----------



## Zetta (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm sure they are 

I also have a pet rock I wish to sell you.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 18, 2009)

Jiraiya slaps Dumbledore's teeth out. He's faster, stronger, more durable, and has counters to lots of Dumbledore's attacks.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 18, 2009)

mystictrunks said:


> Jiraiya slaps Dumbledore's teeth out. He's faster, stronger, more durable, and has counters to lots of Dumbledore's attacks.



Mystictrunks, the bringer of sanity.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Jul 19, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Yes he can. Invisibility charms are like third grade stuff, there is direct quotes of "Oh I can make myself invisible with no cloaks" and the fact that this is barely the spell in question


They've never even used it. So I don't believe you.



> It works on muggles. Evidence that Jiraya has magical powers or an extra sense that allows him to see magic


Where did I put that scan of Sakura explaining chakra? Give me a few post to find it.



> Points at username.
> I assure you, if there is someone who dosen't lie when he should in this forum is me.
> Don't make me go dig through those things again.


If you make a claim, you have proof for it.



> A reverse encantation of the _Deprimo_ spell. Hardly out of this world.


It broke through wooden floor boards. A few hundred pounds of pressure in a single spot is going to take out Jiraiya?



> Because, in the first book or two, it's stated as even the most basic of all competent witches or wizards should be able to push fire away
> In fact, there used to be a witch that let herself get caught and burned at the stake for shits and giggles seventeen times or something.


Okay, I asked how their fire manipulation is better than Ninja's.



> Glacio aura and Hipothermia controll Charms should have him covered.
> 
> Also, if you can just levitate, without anything else, (read, Wingardium leviosa, Don't read Levicorpus) you can counteract gravity. It's not evidence that you can counteract 10* gravity like nothing, but it's a valid way to prevent yourself from being crushed under your own weight, since you are countering the downward forces


I don't see how this will stop Jiraiya from killing him. I thought gravity manipulation was going to be used as an offensive attack, not a supplement spell.


----------



## Gnome (Jul 19, 2009)

dumbledore teleports to the door of the HTC leaves and shuts the door and blasts the door apart, leaving jiraiya stuck inside


----------



## Bart (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Dumbeldore took his wand out and shooted 4 wizzards before all of them could react in the 5 book. So Dumbeldores speed to uses his wands an spells is well above human.
> 
> In the 3 book It was said that wizards laugh of guns and bullets, so is plausible to supose that they have supersonic reaction speed.
> They indeed dodge spells that move at hypersonic speed Kinsgley's patronus traveeled from Lonod to Ron's house in seconds, for example. And Dumbeldore has the elder wand, so any spell seen, that have been done by other wizards, done by Dumbeldore will be many times more powerful.



I very much agree with those various statements, Unknown, especially as I do recall the statement regarding guns and bullets. I believe you're refering to the scene within OOTP where Dumbledore resisted arrest, and your are indeed very correct that Dumbledore had done such a thing, not to mention that the Wizards present were relatively skills and powerful.

Not to mention the feat within the Prince's Tale where Dumbledore Apparated with such speed, Harry described as Lightning, and hit Snape's wand, making it fall from his hand. It was also stated, that the sound of Dumbledore Apparating had been covered by the sound of the wind in the branches.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

Zetta said:


> He reacted to the three Peins and even speedblitzed one casually in Senin Mode.
> 
> Also, Genins move at speeds that can't be seen by the eye.
> 
> ...




So instead of contextuallizing the quotes you decide to ignore them and build your own facts..

It's allright, not a bad strategy, but still. 
Let's look at it in another way
Look, you assume Dumbledore is a frail old man when he has feats of not being, and that genins are.. faster than the eye can see? Where the hell did you take that from? It takes them up to three days to cross the not so large "Forest of Death"
Even with all the trapps and fights untill Gaara, the most unpreceeded record ever was five hours, and that was amazing.
And these are the sibilings that make a three day trip for most jounins in a less than a brief afternoon, and then get punked by Lee for being notoriously slow. Lee who also takes three days to get out of a forest, and deidara who is then quickly caught up by with Naruto.
So as you see, powerscalling speed in Naruto is useless. Bring up speed feats from non sage mode Jiraya that make wizards who speedblitz five also above human some of which elite forces faster than they can see, handle spells who travel countries in seconds, and can even contextualize "laugh at guns and bullets" from a world that "ninjas don't stand a chance against guns"


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 19, 2009)

Travel Speed =/= Combat speed


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> They've never even used it. So I don't believe you.


Seventh book, normal invisibility cloaks are nothing but either invisible monkey skin or invisibility charms.
*yawn*


> Where did I put that scan of Sakura explaining chakra? Give me a few post to find it.


Sakura explains stamina is a combination of physical stamina and spiritual presence, that everyone has. Including muggles in Harry Potter verse. You need a born wizard, with Wizard DNA to be able to see them, or at least, under equivalence rule, able to perform magic, which Jiraya isnt
*yawn*


> If you make a claim, you have proof for it.


Proof has allready been posted in this thread
*sleepy now*


> It broke through wooden floor boards. A few hundred pounds of pressure in a single spot is going to take out Jiraiya?


Dumbledore is aloooooot more powerfull than a spell that took minimal effort from Hermione, and no, this spell saves Dumbledore from dying of gravity crush
Jiraya dosen't have that advantage



> Okay, I asked how their fire manipulation is better than Ninja's.


Ever heard of Fyendfire? It creates a Zoo of quick spreading animals made of the flames Amaterasu likes to pretend it is, if not more powerfull.
Dumbledore puts armies of zombies in a corner with his Incendios, and best of all, it don't waste no chakra.



> I don't see how this will stop Jiraiya from killing him. I thought gravity manipulation was going to be used as an offensive attack, not a supplement spell.


The prupose is to survive the HTC to begin with, which Jiraya can't.


----------



## Elite Ace (Jul 19, 2009)

^^ the above example is not very valid because you are not suppose to zoom through the forest of death at your max speed, cause you have to search the other scroll.

Edit: You guys posted before me 

It was meant to be for Banhammer's post - # 78


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

mystictrunks said:


> Travel Speed =/= Combat speed



And what are Jiraya's Non Sage Mode, Non Toad Sumoning fighting speed feats?
(again, no Nature Chakra in the HTC and Jiraya can't sumon toads from dimensions away)


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

Elite Ace said:


> ^^ the above example is not very valid because you are not suppose to zoom through the forest of death at your max speed, cause you have to search the other scroll.
> 
> Edit: You guys posted before me
> 
> It was meant to be for Banhammer's post - # 78



There are 44 teams in that forest, in a context where the reputation and face of each country is at stake, which definitly means they "spice up" their genins before actually sending them to it, and the purpose becames to do it as fast as possible.
Many of which with tracking skills.
Five hours to three days.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> So instead of contextuallizing the quotes you decide to ignore them and build your own facts..
> 
> It's allright, not a bad strategy, but still.
> Let's look at it in another way
> ...





mystictrunks said:


> Travel Speed =/= Combat speed



Voila


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

Zetta said:


> Voila



Jiraya's non sumon non sage mode non 10* the normal gravity battle speed feats please


----------



## Unknown (Jul 19, 2009)

Spells in HP are hypersonic, Dumbeldore and Vold dodged them so their reaction speed is hypersonic... And Dumbeldore and Vold has feats that put their speed to cast at lest way faster than eye can see.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Jiraya's non sumon non sage mode non 10* the normal gravity battle speed feats please



So Jiraiya is slower than a genin?



Unknown said:


> Spells in HP are hypersonic, Dumbeldore and Vold dodged them so their reaction speed is hypersonic... And Dumbeldore and Vold has feats that put their speed to cast at lest way faster than eye can see.



Where the fuck do you get that?


----------



## Monzaemon (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Spells in HP are hypersonic, Dumbeldore and Vold dodged them so their reaction speed is hypersonic... And Dumbeldore and Vold has feats that put their speed to cast at lest way faster than eye can see.



No, they don't. They are normal humans who shoot magic.


----------



## Nodonn (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Spells in HP are hypersonic, Dumbeldore and Vold dodged them so their reaction speed is hypersonic... And Dumbeldore and Vold has feats that put their speed to cast at lest way faster than eye can see.



Can you please stop wanking all over this thread? It's disgusting.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Spells in HP are hypersonic, Dumbeldore and Vold dodged them so their reaction speed is hypersonic... And Dumbeldore and Vold has feats that put their speed to cast at lest way faster than eye can see.



Whose ass did you pull this from?. I don't remember anyone in HP being  hypersonic.


----------



## Unknown (Jul 19, 2009)

Kingsley shoot a patronus in London and a few second later It was in Ron's house, so It moved Kms in seconds, so yes, their spells are hypersonic, and wizards are able to dodge them.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Kingsley shoot a patronus in London and a few second later It was in Ron's house, so It moved Kms in seconds, so yes, their spells are hypersonic, and wizards are able to dodge them.



That just means Patronus is hypersonic. Or Kingsley's Patronus is.

If Harry's Patronis was hypersonic, how the fuck could he even see it was stag while it was galloping?


----------



## Nodonn (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Kingsley shoot a patronus in London and a few second later It was in Ron's house, so It moved Kms in seconds, so yes, their spells are hypersonic, and wizards are able to dodge them.



Oh that's nice.
My turn now.

Minato's teleporting technique is ninjutsu and instant.
Therefore, all ninjutsu moves instantly.
What's dumbledore gonna do about an instant katon in his face?


----------



## Unknown (Jul 19, 2009)

Not only that, I do't really remenber where, but I'm pretty sure that patronus has been shootr at the same time as otherb spells and It wasn't a sigificative speed difference between patronus and the rest of the spells, so a lot of spells are hypersonic.

And wizards had dodged a lot of spells, some of them by aim dodge, but some other by a superior reaction speed, so wizards has at lest supersonic reaction speed.

Furthermore, there isn't anything in HP that suggest that there are spells that moves fater than others...

Not to mention that since the 3 book It was stated that guns are like a bad joke for wizards...


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Not only that, I do't really remenber where, but I'm pretty sure that patronus has been shootr at the same time as otherb spells and It wasn't a sigificative speed difference between patronus and the rest of the spells, so a lot of spells are hypersonic.
> 
> And wizards had dodged a lot of spells, some of them by aim dodge, but some other by a superior reaction speed, so wizards has at lest supersonic reaction speed.
> 
> ...



Kingsley is a high ranking Auror and you don't know fast Patronus moves in relation to other spells.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

Zetta said:


> Kingsley is a high ranking Auror and you don't know fast Patronus moves in relation to other spells.



And dumbledore blitzed him and four other more folks before they could react.
Bring up Jiraya's amazing speed feats..


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> And dumbledore blitzed him and four other more folks before they could react.
> Bring up Jiraya's amazing speed feats..



You actually think Kingsley would have attacked Dumbledore regardless in that situation?

Not to mention Percy was a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and Fudge and Dwalish have been shown to have rather lacking combat feats.

Is Jiraiya slower than a genin? Y/N?


----------



## Unknown (Jul 19, 2009)

What about Wizards laughting of guns?
What about wizards dodging spells that are at lest supersonic, to be able to be efective aganist bullets?..


----------



## Nodonn (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> What about Wizards laughting of guns?



You know why wizards laugh at guns?
Because a gun is just a piece of machinery that propels a tiny metal object.
Wand can do pretty much ANYTHING.




> What about wizards dodging spells that are at lest supersonic, to be able to be efective aganist bullets?..



Can you PLEASE stop raping logic?
Thank you.


----------



## Unknown (Jul 19, 2009)

No, I can't.
I don't see how, even when in the books are a lot of speed feats that put wizards reaction speed way above human, you can't see them.

Dumbeldore in the 5 book dodged a spell, by teleporting, when the spell was touching his clothes.

And, wizards don't laught of guns just because they can make a lot more things than just shoot  a metal, but because they can beat a gun with easy...


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

Zetta said:


> You actually think Kingsley would have attacked Dumbledore regardless in that situation?
> 
> Not to mention Percy was a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and Fudge and Dwalish have been shown to have rather lacking combat feats.
> 
> Is Jiraiya slower than a genin? Y/N?



Man had to make it real or else he'dd jeoperdize Kingsley's position. Faster than five men could react.
Boys in the weasley family laugh off flying knives an inch from their faces
Are Kunai considered a valid weapon worth carrying around in the ninja universe Y/N?

All ninjas use ninjutsu, Sorry Gai TenTen and Lee.

contextualize Jiraya's speed plz.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

You didn't answer my question.

Is Jiraiya slower than a genin? Yay or nay?


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

The answer is: I don't Know  You tell me

Now your turn


----------



## Unknown (Jul 19, 2009)

Voldemort flys at the same speed as broomsticks, so faster than cars...


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Unknown said:


> *Spells in HP are hypersonic*, Dumbeldore and Vold dodged them so their reaction speed is hypersonic... And Dumbeldore and Vold has feats that put their speed to cast at lest way faster than eye can see.



I told you all  

Jiraya slower than a genin? 
If you think this, you are retarded.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> I told you all
> 
> Jiraya slower than a genin?
> If you think this, you are retarded.



UHMAAAAAAZING

AARGUMENT​


----------



## On and On (Jul 19, 2009)

Apparition > Swamp of the Underworld

Dumbledore FTW.


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Dumbledore rapes.

Jiraiya failed as a character and therefore loses by default.


----------



## Elite Ace (Jul 19, 2009)

Bitch said:


> Dumbledore rapes.
> 
> Jiraiya failed as a character and therefore loses by default.


 
Now that I read your arguement, I am convinced Dumbledore apparently rapes


nice username btw 


^^ /sarcasm for those who didn't know


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Elite Ace said:


> Now that I read your arguement, I am convinced Dumbledore apparently rapes
> 
> 
> nice username btw
> ...



What's stopping him from turning invisible, trapping Jiraiya in a cave and teleporting to the other side of the world, or Legilimency/Occlumency spell-ing him?


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Bitch said:


> What's stopping him from turning invisible, trapping Jiraiya in a cave and teleporting to the other side of the world, or Legilimency/Occlumency spell-ing him?



Jiraya's superior speed.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

His standard ability to strike  three hundred times faster than a normal human while carrying ten times his own weight


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Jiraya's superior speed.



What?  Dumbledore doesn't even need incantations.  IIRC, jutsu need handseals.  :/


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Bitch said:


> What?  Dumbledore doesn't even need incantations.  IIRC, jutsu need handseals.  :/



Rasengan needs handseals?


----------



## Platinum (Jul 19, 2009)

Can Jirayia use Shunshin?


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Platinum said:


> Can Jirayia use Shunshin?



No it hasn't been shown.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

Does Jiraya always rush in with 10X gravity  (while dumbledore only needs to think to get that out of the way) into his battles headfirst?


----------



## Marth6789 (Jul 19, 2009)

Platinum said:


> Can Jirayia use Shunshin?



All ninjas can use it.


----------



## Platinum (Jul 19, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> All ninjas can use it.



I wouldn't say all ninjas can but isn't it like an academy level jutsu?


----------



## Marth6789 (Jul 19, 2009)

Platinum said:


> I wouldn't say all ninjas can but isn't it like an academy level jutsu?



Yes. Its basically a sprint in simple terms... so if a ninja seemingly disappears it was probably shunshin.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

It's an unspecefied abstract WOOOSH from people who take lots proeficency in misdirection.
It's about as much of a speedblitz as batman disapearing when you turn around


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> All ninjas can use it.





Platinum said:


> I wouldn't say all ninjas can but isn't it like an academy level jutsu?



Its an academy level jutsu but it requires mastery as well.  For example, Sakura's shunshin simply adds chakra to her feet to make her running speed faster, while Sasuke's is so fast that it seems as if he "teleported".  Jiraiya probably hasn't mastered Shunshin which is why we haven't seen him use it.  

Not like any of this matters.


----------



## Nodonn (Jul 19, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> No it hasn't been shown.



Are you honestly saying pre-skip Sakura can do something Jiraiya can't?


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Nodonn said:


> Are you honestly saying pre-skip Sakura can do something Jiraiya can't?



It doesn't matter.  :/

Dumbledore rapes whether he knows it or not.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

People, people, wether or not he can do this thing that would 99.5% likely crush his legs before colapsing his lungs from the body abuse is not an issue.


Oh wait, yes it is.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Jul 19, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Does Jiraya always rush in with 10X gravity  (while dumbledore only needs to think to get that out of the way) into his battles headfirst?



Okay, at 10x gravity dumbledore is going to be weighing about 1500 pounds. Just what the fuck is he going to do when all his bones break off instantly, before any spell can be casted, and Jiraiya sets him on fire?

And no, proof has not been posted for the Wizard's reaction times or for the speed of their spells. So post up.



Bitch said:


> It doesn't matter.  :/
> 
> Dumbledore rapes whether he knows it or not.



NO he doesn't. Dumbledore can't turn invisible, his spells aren't that fast, and he doesn't have a good enough reaction time to be able to survive an attack from Jiraiya.

"He jumps four people before they can do anything." Good feat there. 

And Jiraiya does know shunshin, he used it to get behind Pain when fighting hungry animal realm, I think. I'll check again.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

jiraya also dies.
meanwhile Dumbledore thinks his anti gravity spell, then thinks his bone regenerating spells, then thinks Jiraya pudding into a can of fresca


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> NO he doesn't. Dumbledore can't turn invisible, his spells aren't that fast, and he doesn't have a good enough reaction time to be able to survive an attack from Jiraiya.
> 
> "He jumps four people before they can do anything." Good feat there.
> 
> And Jiraiya does know shunshin, he used it to get behind Pain when fighting hungry animal realm, I think. I'll check again.



Did you even read the books?


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

I still haven't seen a retort for the fact that any genin is 10 times faster than Dumbledore.

Let alone the fact that Jiraiya > most Jounin.


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Speed doesn't matter when Dumbledore casts spells without incantations.  He just needs to think Jiraiya away and he'd be dead.

And IIRC, Jiraiya has not shown any Shunshin feats.  For all we know, his Shunshin could be equivalent to P1 Sakura's.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 19, 2009)

Zetta said:


> I still haven't seen a retort for the fact that any genin is 10 times faster than Dumbledore.
> 
> Let alone the fact that Jiraiya > most Jounin.



Voldemort reacts at Broom speeds
Brooms go from north scottland to london in how long? Short. I think firebolt was suposed to be subsonic.
Dumbledore handles Voldemort.
Genins are not ten times faster than humans, despite whatever artistic tool kishi used that has led you to believe that

Jiraya is speed featless, including shunshin. He's hella powerfull, yes, but from sumons and sage, none of which he has here


----------



## Champagne Supernova (Jul 19, 2009)

I can see this turning into the OBD version of Itachi vs Jiraiya.

I call for this thread to be sticky


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Jiraiya's rasengan doesn't require hand seals either.


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

^ But it does require getting close to Dumbledore.


----------



## Mozu (Jul 19, 2009)

Jiraiya is all about the summons. Dumbledore is an ex-Transfiguration teacher. Any other jutstu in Jiriaya's arsenal is still useless. Nin-Speed isn't a factor since Dd has Apparition. 

Dumbledore wins.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Bitch said:


> ^ But it does require getting close to Dumbledore.



Which he will with ease.


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Which he will with ease.



How?


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Bitch said:


> How?



With his superior speed.


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Okay... so he still has to run to get to him.

Unless he's faster than Dumbledore's thinking speed he has no chance.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Bitch said:


> Okay... so he still has to run to get to him.
> 
> Unless he's faster than Dumbledore's thinking speed he has no chance.



Dumbledore would be to scared and stunned at the speed J-man is coming at him to think clearly.


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Is that all you have to resort to?


----------



## Zoidberg (Jul 19, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Dumbledore would be to scared and stunned at the speed J-man is coming at him to think clearly.





I'm sorry, but Dumbeldore is the man who scares Voldemort. VOLDEMORT. A simple display of physical prowess won't faze him.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

battlerek said:


> I'm sorry, but Dumbeldore is the man who scares Voldemort. VOLDEMORT. A simple display of physical prowess won't faze him.



Jiraiya is the man who Pain said could have beaten him. PAIN.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2009)

Pain is a pussy. Voldy's got balls of steel, he's a guy so freakin' scary that people won't even say his name a decade after his death. This is a man that is scared by Dumbledore.

Jiraiya's got nothing that can scare Dumbledore. ^_^


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Pain is a pussy. Voldy's got balls of steel, he's a guy so freakin' scary that people won't even say his name a decade after his death. This is a man that is scared by Dumbledore.
> 
> Jiraiya's got nothing that can scare Dumbledore. ^_^



Yeh people in the HPverse who cannot handle him. Voldermort is nothing to Jiraiya yet alone Dumbledorf


----------



## Bitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Stop kidding yourself.  

If "Dumbledore won't attack him because he'd be too scared" is your only argument, just GTFO.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2009)

> Yeh people in the HPverse who cannot handle him. Voldermort is nothing to Jiraiya yet alone Dumbledorf



Whether or not Jiraiya can beat them is immaterial to the fact that Jiraiya is incapable of scaring Dumbledore


----------



## ∅ (Jul 19, 2009)

*Jiaiya makes a thousand Kagebushins*

There is nothing Dumbledore can do to counter this.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

A said:


> *Jiaiya makes a thousand Kagebushins*
> 
> There is nothing Dumbledore can do to counter this.



He cast a spell at the speed of though that is hypersonic, it kills all the Jiraya clones


----------



## ∅ (Jul 19, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> He cast a spell at the speed of though that is hypersonic, it kills all the Jiraya clones


Yeah Dumbledore for the speed-blitz am I rite?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2009)

How droll.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

A said:


> Yeah Dumbledore for the speed-blitz am I rite?



Yeh Fat Old human wizards>>>Supersonic, Superhuman 50yr old master ninjas.


----------



## ∅ (Jul 19, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Yeh Fat Old human wizards>>>Supersonic, Superhuman 50yr old master ninjas.


Dumbledore being gay and all might even put his wand up Jiraiya's ally.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

A said:


> Dumbledore being gay and all might even put his wand up Jiraiya's ally.



Bumbleforf is gay? I thought he had a wife?


----------



## Mozu (Jul 19, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Dumbledore would be to scared and stunned at the speed J-man is coming at him to think clearly.



 

Dumbledore isn't even afraid of Death, let alone Jiraiya. 



Omega Level said:


> Jiraiya is the man who Pain said could have beaten him. PAIN.



Pain was a cripple and an idiot. Even cursedring!Dumbledore could beat Pain. Not to mention that Dumbledore also has the power of talk no jutsu, only a thousand levels stronger than Naruto's. 



A said:


> *Jiaiya makes a thousand Kagebushins*
> 
> There is nothing Dumbledore can do to counter this.



Since you only have to hit a a kagebunshin hard enough with something to make it disperse, yeah, he can handle it.  



A said:


> Yeah Dumbledore for the speed-blitz am I rite?



Apparate. It's a verb. Learn it.


----------



## Z (Jul 19, 2009)

The Jiraiya supporters have shown their true colors.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jul 19, 2009)

Nice Snape ava Echizen 

As for the "Dumeldore won't attack" argument, might I remind you that the OP specified BLOODLUST TO BE FUCKING ON!


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

battlerek said:


> Nice Snape ava Echizen
> 
> As for the "Dumeldore won't attack" argument, might I remind you that the OP specified BLOODLUST TO BE FUCKING ON!



Calm down...its the internet


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

Bitch said:


> Okay... so he still has to run to get to him.
> 
> Unless he's faster than Dumbledore's *thinking speed* he has no chance.



The speed of thought is 0.3 seconds. That's how long it takes someone to register a sensoral stimulus. Note that this is an instinctual reaction. Processing this adds another 0.25 to 0.50 depending on the person which gives us a total of about 0.55 tot 0.75 seconds.

In 0.5 seconds, a genin can move 49m considering I established earlier that it takes 98m/s to move faster than the eye can percieve... something Genin do regularly.

Let's assume that your average Chuunin is twice as fast as a Genin (considering how that Chuunin blitzed that Genin during the ninja exam, this should be common sense).

Let's also assume that a jounin is 1.5 times as fast as that (considering the speedfeats from Kakashi, Asuma, Kurenai, Gai and Hayato... this is a very plausible assumptions).

For the sake of argument (since we don't how much faster Jiraiya is than a jounin), let's assume Jiraiya is as fast as your average jounin.

This gives about 300m/s for your average jounin. This means Jiraiya could move 150 to 225m before Dumbledore even registers the fact that he's dissapeared. We have seen that Jiraiya can casually form Rasengans in his hand.

So tell me... how many Rasengans to the face can Dumbledore take?

If this battle would take place in general OBD settings, it would mean that the battle would end in LESS than one second.


----------



## Mozu (Jul 19, 2009)

Dumbledore could summon a shield, summon a spell to disturb Jiraiya's sense of time, or OH SHI- Apparate in less than 0.3 seconds. And that's without a wand.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 19, 2009)

Teagan said:


> Dumbledore could summon a shield, summon a spell to disturb Jiraiya's sense of time, or OH SHI- Apparate in less than 0.3 seconds. And that's without a wand.



So Dumbledore can think faster than he can think? What the fuck are you smoking?


----------



## Mozu (Jul 19, 2009)

Time is but a fickle plaything, Zetta. And speed is but Time's little whore.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 19, 2009)

Teagan said:


> Time is but a fickle plaything, Zetta. And speed is but Time's little whore.



So in other words you conceed?


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Teagan said:


> Time is but a fickle plaything, Zetta. And speed is but Time's little whore.



Dumbledore can't cast spells when he can't even make a cohessive thought before dying.

WHAT PART OF THIS IS DIFFICULT?


----------



## Mozu (Jul 20, 2009)

"Dumbledore wins" is an act of concession by your logic, I take it.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Teagan said:


> "Dumbledore wins" is an act of concession by your logic, I take it.



More like cryptic bullshit posts usually mean the poster is up a shitcreek with no paddle and is stalling until he thinks of something or just wants to sound smart.

You failed at both.


----------



## Mozu (Jul 20, 2009)

I gave you three reasons why Jiraiya's speed wouldn't work. Go back and read. 

Are you trying to say that Jiraiya can think faster than Dumbledore? Bc that in itself is bullshit.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Teagan said:


> I gave you three reasons why Jiraiya's speed wouldn't work. Go back and read.
> 
> Are you trying to say that Jiraiya can think faster than Dumbledore? Bc that in itself is bullshit.



Oh I dunno... is Jiraiya a super human?

OH SHI-

HE IS :amazed


----------



## Mozu (Jul 20, 2009)

Dumbledore is a fucking wizard.  

What exactly is your definition of a super-human? Bc to most people, Wizard is a category.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jul 20, 2009)

Teagan said:


> Dumbledore is a fucking wizard.
> 
> What exactly is your definition of a super-human? Bc to most people, Wizard is a category.



Aside from prolonged age and the ability to cast magic, what else do wizards have that make them physically different from muggles?


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Teagan said:


> Dumbledore is a fucking wizard.
> 
> What exactly is your definition of a super-human? Bc to most people, Wizard is a category.



A super human is someone who has shown physical feats that break the limits of human potential.

An old man with no super human feats whatsoever who has the LOWEST POSSIBLE FORM of realitywarping won't beat someone who is anything between 10 to 30 times faster than him. If not more.

Maybe you need to head back to physics if you don't understand the concept of moving faster than thought.



battlerek said:


> Aside from prolonged age and the ability to cast magic, what else do wizards have that make them physically different from muggles?


Prolonged age? That's only Nicolas Flamel as far as we know. Hardly an example of your average wizard.

Dumbledore himself is 115 I believe. Still within human boundaries. A normal human who has led a very healthy life could reach this age and still perform the physical feats Dumby performed without magical assistance.

Shangri-La Episode 16 sub


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 20, 2009)

> Aside from prolonged age and the ability to cast magic, what else do wizards have that make them physically different from muggles?


Pimp hats?


----------



## Zoidberg (Jul 20, 2009)

Zetta said:


> Prolonged age? That's only Nicolas Flamel as far as we know. Hardly an example of your average wizard.
> 
> Dumbledore himself is 115 I believe. Still within human boundaries.



Well, he can still keep up with everyone else despite his advanced age, plus he didn't show any signs of dying until he went ahead and put on Gaunt's ring.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 20, 2009)

Call it prolonged vitality.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

battlerek said:


> Well, he can still keep up with everyone else despite his advanced age, plus he didn't show any signs of dying until he went ahead and put on Gaunt's ring.



Very healthy people can do the same you know. Several people have done the same infact and even lived longer.


----------



## Mozu (Jul 20, 2009)

battlerek said:


> Aside from prolonged age and the ability to cast magic, what else do wizards have that make them physically different from muggles?



The ability to do magic means you have super-human strength, power, etc. If Dumbledore needs to make his skin as tough as iron, then he can do it. Not that it would be necessary in this case if he simply summons a strong enough shield. 



Zetta said:


> A super human is someone who has shown physical feats that break the limits of human potential.
> 
> An old man with no super human feats whatsoever who has the LOWEST POSSIBLE FORM of realitywarping won't beat someone who is anything between 10 to 30 times faster than him. If not more.
> 
> Maybe you need to head back to physics if you don't understand the concept of moving faster than thought.



Well, the dictionary refutes your claim:



> 1.)    above or beyond what is human; having a higher nature or greater powers than humans have: a superhuman being.
> 2.	exceeding ordinary human power, achievement, experience, etc.: a superhuman effort.



It doesn't have to be physical. Someone who has psychokinesis is considered super-human. It doesn't mean you can't slit their throat... if you're fast enough to do it, of course. 

Maybe you should consider the true meaning of a word before you start haphazardly brandishing it's meaning off and replacing it with your _personal concept_ of what it means.  




> Prolonged age? That's only Nicolas Flamel as far as we know. Hardly an example of your average wizard.
> 
> Dumbledore himself is 115 I believe. Still within human boundaries. A normal human who has led a very healthy life could reach this age and still perform the physical feats Dumby performed without magical assistance.
> 
> Link removed



The fact that he worked with Nicholas Flamel is a sign that he knew how to make or use a Philosopher's Stone and decided against it. Good thing considering Jiraiya is mortal. 



Zetta said:


> Very healthy people can do the same you know. Several people have done the same infact and even lived longer.



Have done the same what, exactly?


----------



## Ubogin (Jul 20, 2009)

Lets assume that they can think both at the same speed, 
Dumbledore is still going to get raped.

He needs to hit Jiraya with his spell which is not going happen because:
1. He needs to aim at him with his wand, I think he's not able to move his hand with 300m/s
2. Spells are not hypersonic or anywhere near that, which doesn't matter anyways because he won't be able to cast a spell


And what is with all the crap that wizards have super-human powers (I mean speed/strenght)? It's not true.... not at all, they aren't even peak-human


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Teagan said:


> The ability to do magic means you have super-human strength, power, etc. If Dumbledore needs to make his skin as tough as iron, then he can do it. Not that it would be necessary in this case if he simply summons a strong enough shield.


What part of Dumbledore dies before he can think are you too stupid to understand?




> It doesn't have to be physical. Someone who has psychokinesis is considered super-human. It doesn't mean you can't slit their throat... if you're fast enough to do it, of course.
> 
> Maybe you should consider the true meaning of a word before you start haphazardly brandishing it's meaning off and replacing it with your _personal concept_ of what it means.


So you're argueing semantics to make for the fact that Dumbledore is weak? Cute.

We have a saying here: Arguing semantics is like admitting you've lost. Thank you for conceeding.

Also, where does that definition say anything about mental dumbfuckery that doesn't even exist? Unless you can point me someone with real ESP powers, you're just pulling shit out of your ass.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 20, 2009)

To be fair Zetta, le't put things in a litle prespective.

You put some powerscale reasoning, but it hinges alot on on the core arguments that something kishi drew genins doing for visual effect is in fact something else.
Such speed is inconsistant with non SHOEN FLASHY WOOSH SCENE, more like a trope really.
Specially when you have tipically contradictory moments (and you know you do Zetta, it's kishi we're talking about. "Telportation is really fast movement"?)
However, I do respect and understand the great leeway you're trying to give.
Even though Jiraya has no actual feats of being this fast, even in his biggest battles.
And when you want to argue this super fast speeds, well, you have on scren detailed mentions of how voldemort runs and handles broom speeds, even flying bike, assumably faster, which are pretty fast as it is.
Fourth book, the brooms, which were constricted enough as it is in terms of room could allready fly faster than what Harry's untrained wizard  eyes could see, to the point where he had to buy those slow motion binoculars.
Dumbledore acted faster than what five trained human eyes could see, and these were the ones who easly caught up and understood things like the quiditch game.
So you have to put Wizard's and dumbledore's reaction and perception speed well above normal human.


----------



## Unknown (Jul 20, 2009)

Why are youb still assuming that Dumbeldore thinks at the same speed as an average human?
He wa able to defeat 4 fucking wizards before all the people in the room beside him could ever react.
He was able to teleport when a spell was touching him, so he needs less than miliseconds to teleport himself.
His spells are at very ñest faster than eye can see.

And Jiraya's fastest attack are those hair needle he used aganist Pain, stated by Jiraya himself, and they weren't impresive....

Dumbeldore, even being 115 years was able to keep with Harry in speed and strenght, he swam as fast as Harry swiming throw waves, he is defenitly super human.
Not to mention that all wizards have natural magic without wands, Neville was push from a 3rd floor and his natural magic make him survive....


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 20, 2009)

It's very muuch possible for HP wizards to cast spells without wands, but it's usually very unfocused.
Dumbledore has absolutley mastered his, but we don't know what he can do


----------



## Mozu (Jul 20, 2009)

Zetta said:


> What part of Dumbledore dies before he can think are you too stupid to understand?



What part of prove that Jiraiya, the Master of Physics by your standards, can think faster than Dumbledore, don't you understand? 



> So you're argueing semantics to make for the fact that Dumbledore is weak? Cute.
> 
> We have a saying here: Arguing semantics is like admitting you've lost. Thank you for conceeding.



There's also a rule that resorting to personal attacks is a sign of becoming flustered because you've run out of ideas.  

Or is that just a general rule in debates? Ah, no matter. 



> Also, where does that definition say anything about mental dumbfuckery that doesn't even exist? Unless you can point me someone with real ESP powers, you're just pulling shit out of your ass.



I was providing you with an example of someone that would be considered "Superhuman" without needing physical strength. And, correct me if I'm wrong, as I know you'd love to, but aren't we talking about _fictional_ characters here? I wasn't aware I needed to track someone down with real ESP to prove the point.  



Unknown said:


> Why are youb still assuming that Dumbeldore thinks at the same speed as an average human?
> He wa able to defeat 4 fucking wizards before all the people in the room beside him could ever react.
> He was able to teleport when a spell was touching him, so he needs less than miliseconds to teleport himself.
> His spells are at very ñest faster than eye can see.
> ...



If I were someone with ESP, I would probably say that Zetta thinks none of these points make any sense. 



Banhammer said:


> It's very muuch possible for HP wizards to cast spells without wands, but it's usually very unfocused.
> Dumbledore has absolutley mastered his, but we don't know what he can do



We do know that Dumbledore had some mastery of "old" magic, just as Voldemort did; perhaps even more. I sometimes wish we had been able to see him fight all out more.


----------



## Elite Ace (Jul 20, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Why are youb still assuming that Dumbeldore thinks at the same speed as an average human?
> He wa able to defeat 4 fucking wizards before all the people in the room beside him could ever react.
> He was able to teleport when a spell was touching him, so he needs less than miliseconds to teleport himself.
> His spells are at very ñest faster than eye can see.
> ...


 
*NO !*

He isn't even peak human, yet alone superhuman. You compare him to Harry but for that to work Harry should be superhuman and so if Dumbledore kept up with him he should be superhuman. But guess what Harry isn't even peak human, so Dumbledore is way below peak. Someone like Bruce Lee or Takamura from Hajime no Ippo is Peak human. Don't go calling around every 115 year old wizard superhuamn


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> You put some powerscale reasoning, but it hinges alot on on the core arguments that something kishi drew genins doing for visual effect is in fact something else.
> Such speed is inconsistant with non SHOEN FLASHY WOOSH SCENE, more like a trope really.


To be fair, dissapearing from sight is not much of a feat in general shounen. It just seems very fast because we're dealing with normal humans.



> Specially when you have tipically contradictory moments (and you know you do Zetta, it's kishi we're talking about. "Telportation is really fast movement"?)
> However, I do respect and understand the great leeway you're trying to give.
> Even though Jiraya has no actual feats of being this fast, even in his biggest battles.


That should be more shoddy writing than actual lack of feats. I mean, I doubt that you can be a legendary ninja hero without atleast being able to keep up with mook ninjas like chuunins.



> And when you want to argue this super fast speeds, well, you have on scren detailed mentions of how voldemort runs and handles broom speeds, even flying bike, assumably faster, which are pretty fast as it is.
> Fourth book, the brooms, which were constricted enough as it is in terms of room could allready fly faster than what Harry's untrained wizard  eyes could see, to the point where he had to buy those slow motion binoculars.


What does this have to do with Dumbledore?
The binoculars were brought in so the people could see the match clearly.

I showed firebolts have a speed of 150mph. That's pretty close to the 220mph mark where you actually move faster than the human eye can see.

Of course you'll need slow motion to negate the blurring effect if you want to watch a match but that doesn't mean the players themselves are super human. We have plenty of people who can handle these speeds and perform feats at them. Just look at military jet pilots or F1 pilots. Same concept.

Hell, jets and F1 racing cars shit on the Firebolt's 150mph.



> Dumbledore acted faster than what five trained human eyes could see, and these were the ones who easly caught up and understood things like the quiditch game.


Wait... when was it ever mentioned that Kingsley, Fudge, Umbridge, Dwalish or Percy were watching the Cup with their naked eyes and following it casually? The only people who were in the special box were Fudge and Percy and as I recall, it wasn't mentioned.

The only one who had no trouble following it was Ludo Bagman and he was an ex-highranking player himself. Which still doesn't make his feat super human. 



> So you have to put Wizard's and dumbledore's reaction and perception speed well above normal human.


Not really.



Unknown said:


> Why are youb still assuming that Dumbeldore thinks at the same speed as an average human?
> He wa able to defeat 4 fucking wizards before all the people in the room beside him could ever react.


A human known for his magical dueling skills (Voldy, Grindlewald) outreacting 5 people? *gasp*

Not only were none of the five expecting the attack but you have unimpressive wizards like Fudge, Percy and Umbridge present. Yes, outreacting bureaucrats is so impressive. The only real fighters were Kingsley and Dwalish. Dwalish's poor combat feats are somewhat of a running joke while Kingsley was probably jobbing.


> He was able to teleport when a spell was touching him, so he needs less than miliseconds to teleport himself.


Yes, because when you see a spell coming and you can teleport, what will you do? Stay and try to dodge or *gasp* teleport ?


> His spells are at very ?est faster than eye can see.


Which is why we were able to see every spell in the Voldy/Dumby duel. 


> And Jiraya's fastest attack are those hair needle he used aganist Pain, stated by Jiraya himself, and they weren't impresive....


Yeah, because it's not as if ninja's of that level (like say, Killer Bee) were calced at mach 2. No sir.



> Dumbeldore, even being 115 years was able to keep with Harry in speed and strenght, he swam as fast as Harry swiming throw waves, he is defenitly super human.


Or very fit. Which is possible. Several centenarians have kept great physical shape. Not to mention Harry isn't some impressive athlete.



> Not to mention that all wizards have natural magic without wands, Neville was push from a 3rd floor and his natural magic make him survive....


And this stops a rasengan to the face before Dumby can react... how?




Teagan said:


> What part of prove that Jiraiya, the Master of Physics by your standards, can think faster than Dumbledore, don't you understand?


When you move at Jiraiya's speed, you naturally need a higher thinking speed in order to percieve all the sensory data and not run into shit.

These are the basics Teagan. If you don't know basic things like this, you might as well go away.




> There's also a rule that resorting to personal attacks is a sign of becoming flustered because you've run out of ideas.
> 
> Or is that just a general rule in debates? Ah, no matter.


Personal attacks? I wasn't aware calling your points complete and utter bullshit are personal attacks nowadays. Maybe my university level argumental studies class updated itself since last I passed it 

Or maybe you're just too sensitive 




> I was providing you with an example of someone that would be considered "Superhuman" without needing physical strength. And, correct me if I'm wrong, as I know you'd love to, but aren't we talking about _fictional_ characters here? I wasn't aware I needed to track someone down with real ESP to prove the point.


And where in that definition does it say it encompasses mental dumbfuckery? 
Also, are you planning on continueing this strawman any longer? It's starting to bore me.



> If I were someone with ESP, I would probably say that Zetta thinks none of these points make any sense.


Of course they don't.



> We do know that Dumbledore had some mastery of "old" magic, just as Voldemort did; perhaps even more. I sometimes wish we had been able to see him fight all out more.


Who cares what he didn't do. The point remains that Dumbledore has shown no super human speedfeats.


----------



## Unknown (Jul 20, 2009)

Zetta, you are the only one using the movie feats, the rest of us are talking about the books, in the books Dumbeldore casted 4 spells before anyone in the room could see him moving, including Harry who wasn't even attacked so he could see it normally.

In the 3rd book a Dementor was about to kiss Sirius, by logic there wasn't even a second to act, when Harry climbed a rock, took his wand out and casted the patronus, that all in less that the time  needed to make a kiss (by logic not more than a second).ç
Not to mention that the patronus crossed a lake before the kiss was done...


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 20, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Zetta, you are the only one using the movie feats, the rest of us are talking about the books, in the books Dumbeldore casted 4 spells before anyone in the room could see him moving, including Harry who wasn't even attacked so he could see it normally.
> 
> In the 3rd book a Dementor was about to kiss Sirius, by logic there wasn't even a second to act, when Harry climbed a rock, took his wand out and casted the patronus, that all in less that the time  needed to make a kiss (by logic not more than a second).?
> Not to mention that the patronus crossed a lake before the kiss was done...



Thats like relativistic speed right


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Unknown said:


> Zetta, you are the only one using the movie feats, the rest of us are talking about the books, in the books Dumbeldore casted 4 spells before anyone in the room could see him moving, including Harry who wasn't even attacked so he could see it normally.
> 
> In the 3rd book a Dementor was about to kiss Sirius, by logic there wasn't even a second to act, when Harry climbed a rock, took his wand out and casted the patronus, that all in less that the time  needed to make a kiss (by logic not more than a second).?
> Not to mention that the patronus crossed a lake before the kiss was done...



I know the books far better than you, thank you very much. I have them all First Print.

And about to kiss. Yeah, that's such a clear timeframe.

Maybe you need to go reread 3 and 5. I can assure I know every little detail about them. 3 and 5 are my favorites.


----------



## Unknown (Jul 20, 2009)

But It doesn't seems like it, because you were talking about the egg, refering to when Dumbeldore run awy from the minister, and that only happened in the movie.

And I have reread it just before posting, so I'm pretty sure that It was like I said.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Unknown said:


> But It doesn't seems like it, because you were talking about the egg, refering to when Dumbeldore run awy from the minister, and that only happened in the movie.
> 
> And I have reread it just before posting, so I'm pretty sure that It was like I said.



Egg? What the fuck are you blabbering about?


----------



## Mozu (Jul 20, 2009)

Zetta said:


> Yes, because when you see a spell coming and you can teleport, what will you do? Stay and try to dodge or *gasp* teleport ?



What exactly do you think Apparation is? 



> Or very fit. Which is possible. Several centenarians have kept great physical shape. Not to mention Harry isn't some impressive athlete.



Perhaps, but they weren't wizards. 



> And this stops a rasengan to the face before Dumby can react... how?



Protego. For the last fucking time. Protego. 




> When you move at Jiraiya's speed, you naturally need a higher thinking speed in order to percieve all the sensory data and not run into shit.



Ah, but of course. How could I forget that Jiraiya's thinking capacity is on level with that of a god? Silly me.  



> These are the basics Teagan. If you don't know basic things like this, you might as well go away.



Physics is thrown out the window when magic and jutsu are involved. Basic knowledge of fantasy and fiction should tell you that. 



> Personal attacks? I wasn't aware calling your points complete and utter bullshit are personal attacks nowadays. Maybe my university level argumental studies class updated itself since last I passed it
> 
> Or maybe you're just too sensitive



Senstitive? Not at all. If you're opinion of me meant something then perhaps you would have a point. I was simply pointing out that you are coming off a bit ruffled.  




> And where in that definition does it say it encompasses mental dumbfuckery?
> Also, are you planning on continueing this strawman any longer? It's starting to bore me.



When you don't understand something, you become quite frustrated, I see. Nobody's perfect. It's often harder for people to forgive others for being right, then for being wrong.  



> Who cares what he didn't do. The point remains that Dumbledore has shown no super human speedfeats.



I guess this would be a bad time to bring up semantics again. 



Zetta said:


> I know the books far better than you, thank you very much. I have them all First Print.
> 
> And about to kiss. Yeah, that's such a clear timeframe.
> 
> Maybe you need to go reread 3 and 5. I can assure I know every little detail about them. 3 and 5 are my favorites.



Ah, it's time to whip out our elitist HP knowledge! 

Perhaps, I have been talking to Steve van der Ark all this time!  



Unknown said:


> But It doesn't seems like it, because you were talking about the egg, refering to when Dumbeldore run awy from the minister, and that only happened in the movie.
> 
> And I have reread it just before posting, so I'm pretty sure that It was like I said.



I don't know what you're talking about, but he used Fawkes' ability to apparate within Hogwarts' grounds to his advantage, not some egg.


----------



## Ubogin (Jul 20, 2009)

Protego only works on light and middle-strong spells, rasengan would easily kill any normal human so it won't be blocked. But this won't happen anyways because Jiraya will easily speedblitz him before he can perform the move to create a protego.


----------



## Mozu (Jul 20, 2009)

Dumbledore level protego is completely different. Apparation = Speedblitzing.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 20, 2009)

Teleportation =/= Speed


----------



## Ubogin (Jul 20, 2009)

mystictrunks said:


> Teleportation =/= Speed



This.


and show me that protegos power increases with magical skill of the user. If it was true then he wouldn't need to use the statue in the ministry of magic,he could simply block Voldemorts avada kedavra




exeBeast said:


> But this won't happen anyways because Jiraya will easily speedblitz him before he can perform the move to create a protego.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 20, 2009)

Show Protego stopping a buildingbuster.

Also, I like how your last post could be summed up as:

Apparation and protego


----------



## Nodonn (Jul 20, 2009)

I have a little question to the ''wizards are über-fast'' people:

HP is a series about the introduction of a young boy in a totally new world, where CANDY got an elaborate explanation. If wizards were suddenly 10 times as fast as normal people, wouldn't you think that there would be some kind of ''JESUS CHRIST YOU PEOPLE ARE SO FAST'' in one of the 7 books?


----------



## HumanWine (Jul 20, 2009)

Nodonn said:


> I have a little question to the ''wizards are über-fast'' people:
> 
> HP is a series about the introduction of a young boy in a totally new world, where CANDY got an elaborate explanation. If wizards were suddenly 10 times as fast as normal people, wouldn't you think that there would be some kind of ''JESUS CHRIST YOU PEOPLE ARE SO FAST'' in one of the 7 books?


What do you mean by fast? Reaction speed? Im pretty sure he didnt really give a dam when he playing that silly little flying game his first year.


----------



## Mozu (Jul 20, 2009)

mystictrunks said:


> Teleportation =/= Speed



If this were Yondaime we were talking about, I don't think you'd be arguing that point. 



Zetta said:


> Show Protego stopping a buildingbuster.
> 
> Also, I like how your last post could be summed up as:
> 
> Apparation and protego



Considering my hate and bitterness towards Dumbledore, I wouldn't cry if Jiraiya could actually beat him, thanks.  

You still haven't proven Jiraiya's mental capacity is so much greater than Dumbledore's in order for him to speed him to death. Maybe you're seeing a super-humanly intelligent Jiraiya in the manga that I missed, though.  



Nodonn said:


> I have a little question to the ''wizards are ?ber-fast'' people:
> 
> HP is a series about the introduction of a young boy in a totally new world, where CANDY got an elaborate explanation. If wizards were suddenly 10 times as fast as normal people, wouldn't you think that there would be some kind of ''JESUS CHRIST YOU PEOPLE ARE SO FAST'' in one of the 7 books?



Where does it say nin can move at the speed of light? Or how fast they can move exactly? The speed blitzing in Naruto is so vague. Not to mention that a ninja is going to run out of energy faster running around than a wizard sitting there deflecting attacks will. If bloodlust is on, Jiraiya is toast. We've seen his idea of a serious fight, and he didn't come out of it all that great.


----------



## Ubogin (Jul 20, 2009)

Teagan said:


> You still haven't proven Jiraiya's mental capacity is so much greater than Dumbledore's in order for him to speed him to death. Maybe you're seeing a super-humanly intelligent Jiraiya in the manga that I missed, though.



He was fighting with several fighters who are around sonic speed and reacted to them, which means his reaction and thinking speed is much higher than anything dumbledore has shown.


----------



## HumanWine (Jul 21, 2009)

exeBeast said:


> He was fighting with several fighters who are around sonic speed and reacted to them, which means his reaction and thinking speed is much higher than anything dumbledore has shown.


Show scans of Jiraiya fighting 6 guys at the same time.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 21, 2009)

HumanWine said:


> Show scans of Jiraiya fighting 6 guys at the same time.



Pain...


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jul 21, 2009)

HumanWine said:


> Show scans of Jiraiya fighting 6 guys at the same time.





Omega Level said:


> Pain...





Inspiration time


----------



## Mozu (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, it was actually one guy with six bodies. Not exactly 6 different people with 6 different thought processes coming at him at the same time.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 21, 2009)

The thought process to make 6 beings multitask at the same time.


----------



## HumanWine (Jul 21, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> The thought process to make 6 beings multitask at the same time.


Post scans of Jiraiya fighting 6 Peins at the same time.


----------



## Zetta (Jul 21, 2009)

Teagan said:


> If this were Yondaime we were talking about, I don't think you'd be arguing that point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Intelligence has nothing to do with thinking speed.

Thinking speed is a part of reaction speed, in which Jiraiya, being nearly super sonic, is a lot more gifted that Dumbledore the slow.

Also, I see you haven't given proof about Protego. Concession accepted.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 21, 2009)

HumanWine said:


> Post scans of Jiraiya fighting 6 Peins at the same time.



Fighting 3 Pain's at the same time is way harder than fighting an old man whose spells fly at 150 mph

Bam!
Bam!
Bam!
Yup Jiraya fought all 6 of em


----------



## Ubogin (Jul 21, 2009)

HumanWine said:


> Show scans of Jiraiya fighting 6 guys at the same time.



Never said that he fought them at the same time, because there aren't scans that proof this.
I just stated that he fought several fighters like Orochimaru, 
The 3 Pains


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 21, 2009)

exeBeast said:


> Never said that he fought them at the same time, because there aren't scans that proof this.
> I just stated that he fought several fighters like Orochimaru,
> The 3 Pains



In the scan's I posted it implies that he did. You can see 6 of them jump at him from the get go.


----------



## Ubogin (Jul 21, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> In the scan's I posted it implies that he did. You can see 6 of them jump at him from the get go.



They don't show him fighting them, only jumping at him, you don't know what happened then. He may have tried to run away which is not really fighting. And he was injured at the end.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 21, 2009)

exeBeast said:


> They don't show him fighting them, only jumping at him, you don't know what happened then. He may have tried to run away which is not really fighting. And he was injured at the end.



He said that he *finally* got 1 Pain. He was trying to kill them, and fighting for his life.


----------



## Ubogin (Jul 21, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> He said that he *finally* got 1 Pain. He was trying to kill them, and fighting for his life.



Hmm, right...I knew that he could keep up with them but I'm not sure if you can use this as proof.

Anyways, it's clear that he speedblitzes Dumbledore easily, no points that can argue that.


----------



## Mozu (Jul 21, 2009)

Zetta said:


> *Intelligence has nothing to do with thinking speed.*



Intelligence is versed in thinking speed. What are _you_ smoking? 

Perhaps, you meant to say Knowledge. 




> Thinking speed is a part of reaction speed, in which Jiraiya, being nearly super sonic, is a lot more gifted that Dumbledore the slow.



I love that you are trying to paint Jiraiya as a being with god like intellect, which you have no proof of whatsoever. Just because he can move around fast doesn't make him more powerful than Dumbledore. That's like saying the Uchiha's greatest feat was their speed. 



> Also, I see you haven't given proof about Protego. Concession accepted.



Where is your proof that Jiraiya's speed will save him?  

Certainly didn't save him against Pain. And there are certainly enough spells in Dumbledore's arsenal to counter Jiraiya's ninjutsu. Things like Rasengan are childsplay as Konohamaru and Naruto have proven.  

Concession not given without my say. 



exeBeast said:


> Hmm, right...I knew that he could keep up with them but I'm not sure if you can use this as proof.
> 
> Anyways, it's clear that he speedblitzes Dumbledore easily, no points that can argue that.



If you can deflect or counter an attack then you don't need to speedblitz. That is, if you decide not to teleport apparate out of the attacks path.


----------



## Ubogin (Jul 21, 2009)

No he can't counter anything. It takes Jiraya less time to reach him than it takes Dumbledore to perform any spell


----------



## Zetta (Jul 21, 2009)

Teagan said:


> Intelligence is versed in thinking speed. What are _you_ smoking?
> 
> Perhaps, you meant to say Knowledge.



Which is why IQ is calculated using neutral questions with no prior knowledge needed...

You seem to be confused. You think all F1 pilots have 200 IQ or something to have a very thinking speed (which they need for their reaction speed)?

As for the rest of your post. Why are you comparing Pein to Dumbledore?

Non-sequitor. Mind stopping with the fallacies?


----------



## Elite Ace (Jul 23, 2009)

Teagan said:


> Pain was a cripple and an idiot. Even cursedring!Dumbledore could beat Pain. Not to mention that Dumbledore also has the power of talk no jutsu, only a thousand levels stronger than Naruto's.


 
Me thinks you mistook Pain with Nagato, not that it matters.

and make the Pain vs Dumbledore thread if you got the ballz


----------

