# Base Itachi vs. Tsunade



## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Location: Bell Test Area
Distance: 25m
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: Manga

Simple. 

Can Tsunade touch Itachi before she's placed in an illusion?


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## Trojan (Oct 28, 2013)

Tsunade stomps, no difficult. 
even his genjutsu is useless, Tsunade can even heal the effect of the Tsukuyomi. 

or she can summon Katsuyu, who also can stomp itachi.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Tsunade wouldn't know she's in an illusion, like Deidara didn't. 

Also, she can't touch Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 28, 2013)

Killer Bee was twice-given warnings to keep up with Itachi's shunshin. 

Kunai-curving and mach speed are enough.


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## Trojan (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade wouldn't know she's in an illusion, like Deidara didn't.
> 
> Also, she can't touch Itachi.



-except, she is not 9 years old Diedara. 
and she knows about the uchiha's power + you stated it's 25m long, and itachi has
no genjutsu works at that distance. 

- Says who?


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Elia said:


> -except, she is not 9 years old Diedara.
> and she knows about the uchiha's power + you stated it's 25m long, and itachi has
> no genjutsu works at that distance.




If you want to tell me that Tsunade can instantly deduce what is Genjutsu and what is reality, then prove it. Even Sasuke's Genjutsu could floor illusion-casting sensor medics. Itachi is better than Sasuke there.



> - Says who?




She couldn't even touch Sakura.


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## Kai (Oct 28, 2013)

Before the Sannin had their trump cards introduced, it was easy to see and say Itachi putting them down with mere genjutsu.

After all we've seen from three members of the Sannin, Itachi will need MS to silence their most powerful techniques for good (Byakugo, Sage Mode, Yamata).

Tsunade, high difficulty. Itachi's agility in close quarters is second to none however.



Rocky said:


> She couldn't even touch Sakura.


Sakura's evasion > Madara's confirmed


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## Ersa (Oct 28, 2013)

Elia said:


> Tsunade stomps, no difficult.
> even his genjutsu is useless, Tsunade can even heal the effect of the Tsukuyomi.
> 
> or she can summon Katsuyu, who also can stomp itachi.


Tsunade can't stomp anyone at Kage level even low tier Kages like base Itachi. Get that shit out of here, there's no point trying to argue your post anyone as it lacks any hint of a decent argument and you'll just cry and whinge Itachi wanking.

I mean the sheer fact you think genjutsu is useless means you need to reread the manga. 

OT;
Itachi can win but it's not easy. He has a fair speed advantage,  much higher DB score, keeping up with KCM Naruto without his Shunshin and other speedsters  like SM Kabuto and B. His hand seal speed is fast enough that even a fellow exprerienced Sharingan user like Sasuke didn't notice he made a clone. It'll be similar to Kabuto vs Tsunade here, Tsunade was rusty there but Kabuto's speed was not much greater, Itachi is much faster than current Tsunade so unless he lets his guard down like Kabuto he can dance again her all day especially with 3 Tomoe Sharingan and his much superior Shunshin.

From there it is merely a matter of getting her into genjutsu via clone feint, then before she can break it kunais to the brain or put some explosive tags in her mouth. I don't IC Tsunade instantly summons Katsuyu and if Itachi lays on the pressure via Katon Hosenka and clones early she won't be able to.

Also Byakogou is useless as if she falls under genjutsu Itachi can make her turn it off as Shikaku suggested.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Kai said:


> Before the Sannin had their trump cards introduced, it was easy to see and say Itachi putting them down with mere genjutsu.
> 
> After all we've seen from three members of the Sannin, Itachi will need MS to silence their most powerful techniques for good (Byakugo, Sage Mode, Yamata).




Itachi can force her to turn off Byakugo through Genjutsu. 



Kai said:


> Sakura's evasion > Madara's confirmed




Tunade never hit Madara. She struck his Susano'o, then a wood clone, then his clone's Susano'o.


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## Trojan (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If you want to tell me that Tsunade can instantly deduce what is Genjutsu and what is reality, then prove it. Even Sasuke's Genjutsu could floor illusion-casting sensor medics. Itachi is better than Sasuke there.
> 
> She couldn't even touch Sakura.



- Well, it's the same for saying that itachi will put her under his genjutsu instantly from 25m even
though his genjutsu only works 0-5m long. 

as for saying itachi is better than sasuke, I believe 5 clones of madara with EMS are also better
than itachi and they had greater chance at doing so, but did that happen? No. 

- She actually did + she did that to madara as well who has shown better feat at speed than
itachi, and lets say he will dodge every single attack from her (and not taking her summon in regard) with his baby amount of chakra level, how long is he going to last?


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## Lord Aizen (Oct 28, 2013)

I don't see tsunade touching itachi he's way too skilled to be hit by someone as slow as tsunade and he would genjutsu her like he did orochimaru. mid difficulty win for itachi


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## Trojan (Oct 28, 2013)

> =Kyokan;48828083]Tsunade can't stomp anyone at Kage level even low tier Kages like base Itachi. Get that shit out of here, there's no point trying to argue your post anyone as it lacks any hint of a decent argument and you'll just cry and whinge Itachi wanking.
> 
> I mean the sheer fact you think genjutsu is useless means you need to reread the manga.



cut the crap please, she healed kakashi and sasuke from his strongest genjutsu, what do you
want more than that? 



> OT;
> Itachi can win but it's not easy. He has a fair speed advantage,  much higher DB score, keeping up with KCM Naruto without his Shunshin and other speedsters  like SM Kabuto and B. His hand seal speed is fast enough that even a fellow exprerienced Sharingan user like Sasuke didn't notice he made a clone. It'll be similar to Kabuto vs Tsunade here, Tsunade was rusty there but Kabuto's speed was not much greater, Itachi is much faster than current Tsunade so unless he lets his guard down like Kabuto he can dance again her all day especially with 3 Tomoe Sharingan and his much superior Shunshin.



-a half point = much higher DB score.  
- when did Naruto used his shunshin against itachi? And you were talking about the BS? lol
- yeah, like when kabuto cut him in half. 
- Tsunade does not even need seals to attack.  
- yeah, Tsunade who did not fight for 20 years before that battle.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Well, it's the same for saying that itachi will put her under his genjutsu instantly from 25m even
> though his genjutsu only works 0-5m long.




He can get closer.

Or use clones.

Or use clones.



> as for saying itachi is better than sasuke, I believe 5 clones of madara with EMS are also better
> than itachi and they had greater chance at doing so, but did that happen? No.




Wood clones are fodder. May I remind you that Madara killed all of Hashirama's while seated. Madara was playing around anyway.



> - She actually did + she did that to madara as well who has shown better feat at speed than
> utachi, and lets say he will dodge every single attack from her (and not taking her summon in regard) with his baby amount of chakra level, how long is he going to last?




She never hit Madara, she hit his clones.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Come on Flaming Rain and Gondaime, come at me.


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## Kai (Oct 28, 2013)

Happened before Shippuden = rusty Tsunade, on par with Kabuto.

War arc Tsunade is a fighter of a completely different class.


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## Ersa (Oct 28, 2013)

Elia said:


> cut the crap please, she healed kakashi and sasuke from his strongest genjutsu, what do you
> want more than that?
> 
> 
> ...


No you cut the crap  Healing Tsukiyomi after a battle =/= Healing a genjutsu while you're in it. Do you even read the manga son?

- 5 vs 3.5, 1.5 speed difference and Sharingan.
- He was prepping Izanami, he clone-feinted Kabuto and attacked him multiple times just fine. Also SM Kabuto >>> Tsunade in speed. Kabuto would blitz Tsunade without a distraction 
- And so? Itachi is so much faster with pre-cognition.
- Did you even read my post? Please reread your counter-arguments are for points I didn't even make. I never said this is rusty Tsunade, I said current.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Kai said:


> Happened before Shippuden = rusty Tsunade, on par with Kabuto.
> 
> War arc Tsunade is a fighter of a completely different class.




It happened during the timeskip. She wasn't the rusty, bloodphobic Tsunade anymore.

Nice try.


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## Trojan (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He can get closer.
> 
> Or use clones.
> 
> ...



- Tsunade can't summon Katsuyu who can divide herself to thousands pieces and attack
itachi from thousands direction? 

- Although I agree that they are weaker when hashi use them, but madara's clons had their
susanoo as well, which was able to protect them from the Gokages attacl + they did put the
raikage under the genjutsu, remember?  

- Does not matter, the clones have the same abilities (supposedly at least) 

or, are you willing to tell us that sharingan itachi is more powerful than 5 clones with
EMS, Rinnegan, Wood, and unlimited chakra?


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## Trojan (Oct 28, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> No you cut the crap  Healing Tsukiyomi after a battle =/= Healing a genjutsu while you're in it. Do you even read the manga son?
> 
> - 5 vs 3.5, 1.5 speed difference and Sharingan.
> - He was prepping Izanami, he clone-feinted Kabuto and attacked him multiple times just fine. Kabuto would blitz Tsunade without a distraction
> ...



- Do you even know that her seal heal her automatically?  

- oh, I thought you were talking about the over all score.
- His own problem, as for the second part, seems even madara couldn't. 

- it seems I misread some parts of your post, indeed. 
Sorry.


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## Ersa (Oct 28, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Do you even know that her seal heal her automatically?
> 
> - oh, I thought you were talking about the over all score.
> - His own problem, as for the second part, seems even madara couldn't.
> ...


What if she doesn't have her seal on? Plus you realize normal Sharingan genjutsu doesn't actually damage right, it'll paralyze her. Her seal hits injuries,

Speed, reasons why she can't hit him. Plus he can predict where she'll attack with Sharingan.

You do realize Madara isn't the fastest character right? He has top-tier reactions but his speed has never noted to be insane given he has better techniques to use. He doesn't need to blitz Tsunade cause he can kill her in  101 ways that are easier.

No problem.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 28, 2013)

25m gives Tsunade enough distance to summon Katsuyu.

From there, she's got a partner to counter all of Itachi's Genjutsu. Byakugou renders all of his physical attacks ineffective. The only difficulty Tsunade faces lies in hitting Itachi, which will be nearly impossible with his speed, agility, and Sharingan-enhanced reaction time. Luckily for Tsunade, stamina is Itachi's weakpoint and she has plenty to spare; it will take some time, but she is eventually gonna corner Itachi and finish him off. Without the Mangekyou Sharingan, Itachi simply can't put her down, so all he can do is stay light on his feet for as long as possible.

It's probably worth mentioning that the outcome would be different if she started the match within the range of Itachi's Genjutsu. If Itachi attacks aggressively, he can prevent her from summoning by cutting her hand off (like he did Orochimaru's) and use Genjutsu to keep her subdued.


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## Kai (Oct 28, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 25m gives Tsunade enough distance to summon Katsuyu.
> 
> From there, she's got a partner to counter all of Itachi's Genjutsu. Byakugou renders all of his physical attacks ineffective. The only difficulty Tsunade faces lies in hitting Itachi, which will be nearly impossible with his speed, agility, and Sharingan-enhanced reaction time. Luckily for Tsunade, stamina is Itachi's weakpoint and she has plenty to spare; it will take some time, but she is eventually gonna corner Itachi and finish him off. Without the Mangekyou Sharingan, Itachi simply can't put her down, so all he can do is stay light on his feet for as long as possible.
> 
> It's probably worth mentioning that the outcome would be different if she started the match within the range of Itachi's Genjutsu. If Itachi attacks aggressively, he can prevent her from summoning by cutting her hand off (like he did Orochimaru's) and use Genjutsu to keep her subdued.


/thread

For a thread like this


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 25m gives Tsunade enough distance to summon Katsuyu.




Katsuyu can effectively and consistently perform the Partner Method while avoiding Itachi's own summon controlling Genjutsu?


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## Ersa (Oct 28, 2013)

25m isn't much to be honest.

Deva dodged a FRS that crossed the CT crater before a second had passed (Deva was counting), even disregarding OBD calcs, if we assume Itachi is similar in speed then he Shunshins in and goes on the offense with Katon and clones Tsunade won't have a chance to summon Katsuyu. Plus, it's not exactly an IC move.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Katsuyu can effectively and consistently perform the Partner Method while avoiding Itachi's own summon controlling Genjutsu?



Given that Katsuyu can literally be a million places at once and stick to Tsunade in pieces without really compromising her mobility...yeah, I don't think Genjutsu will be any concern.

It might look a bit awkward to see Tsunade running around covered in slugs, but obtaining the power to defeat Itachi must come at a price. 

EDIT: Alternatively, one Katsuyu tucked away under her clothing could be enough, I guess.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Given that Katsuyu can literally be a million places at once and stick to Tsunade in pieces without really compromising her mobility...yeah, I don't think Genjutsu will be any concern.




Itachi, with his "special" insight, may predict Tsunade to employ this strategy. Therefore, he'll anticipate Tsunade's summoning Jutsu, and prepare to take control of the slug the moment it appears. It will be caught, considering Katsuyu isn't going to be expecting Itachi's Genjutsu after randomly popping up, and since she starts in one piece....

Good Game.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi, with his "special" insight, may predict Tsunade to employ this strategy. Therefore, he'll anticipate Tsunade's summoning Jutsu, and prepare to take control of the slug the moment it appears. It will be caught, considering Katsuyu isn't going to be expecting Itachi's Genjutsu after randomly popping up, and since she starts in one piece....
> 
> Good Game.



He can't do that at 25m.

Even if he managed to get close enough to successfully pull it off, he then has to worry about Tsunade dropping out of the sky with a bone-pulverizing kick while he's mind-controlling her summon.

His only chance is to preempt the Kuchiyose, but I don't see that happening at 25m.


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## Ersa (Oct 28, 2013)

> Restrictions: Manga


Does this mean Kishimoto is writing the fight?


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> He can't do that at 25m




Katsuyu is huge. Itachi should have no trouble casting Genjutsu on it from 25m. Hell, Madara did it to the Kyuubi from further away. 

A quarter of a football field is easily in Genjutsu range of a man hyped to have the ability to control multiple people from outside a sensor's range.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Come on Flaming Rain and Gondaime, come at me.



I think that's best taken as "no love taps", personally. Of course, the official viz release (which i have in front of me right now) only says "I won't go easy on you". 

Just because Tsunade isn't "being gentle" doesn't mean she's going 100% and aiming for the kill.

Real life example: my instructors say not to "go easy" on lower ranked belts and younger kids, but they never mean "give it your all trying to kick the crap out of them", they just mean don't go lightly tapping them. But of course, light taps from Tsunade still aren't very gentle.


Then there is of course common sense:

If you think the much weaker and complete fodder version of a girl who couldn't avoid Kabuto's butt or some rocks could avoid someone Kabuto, Shizune, Orochimaru, and Madara (without resorting to other measures inaccessible to Sakura at least) couldn't in close-quarters, then you've got a few screws loose.

Tsunade obviously wasn't going to try to kill her successor while she was still fodder.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Katsuyu is huge. Itachi should have no trouble casting Genjutsu on it from 25m. Hell, Madara did it to the Kyuubi from further away.



That's Madara, though... And I don't actually recall seeing Madara take control of the Kyuubi, or at what distance he did so. Obito is a different story, but you run into the same problem in that there is nothing implying that Itachi is capable of replicating the feat.



> A quarter of a football field is easily in Genjutsu range of a man hyped to have the ability to control multiple people from outside a sensor's range.



There's been debate over whether that means he can seize control from that range or simply maintain control at that range; I don't recall ever seeing that issue resolved.

However, all of Itachi's known Genjutsu are listed as short-range (5m) techniques in the databooks, and we don't have any feats to support the claim that Itachi can cast Genjutsu at 25m.

Look, if he can do it, then that's neat. But he still has to worry about Tsunade attacking him to disrupt the Genjutsu. Once Katsuyu is on the field and Itachi's attention is divided, Genjutsu ceases being a viable option for him.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I think that's best taken as "no love taps", personally. Of course, the official viz release (which i have in front of me right now) only says "I won't go easy on you".




Do you have the viz scan? 




> Then there is of course common sense:
> 
> If you think the much weaker and complete fodder version of a girl who couldn't avoid Kabuto's butt or some rocks could avoid someone Kabuto, Shizune, Orochimaru, and Madara (without resorting to other measures inaccessible to Sakura at least) couldn't in close-quarters, then you've got a few screws loose.




Not my words.  Kishimoto's. 



> Tsunade obviously wasn't going to try to kill her successor while she was still fodder.





Oh really?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Do you have the viz scan?



Just the book. 

"Won't hold back" _can_ carry the same meaning though.



> Oh really?



Tsunade is not Jiraiya, firstly.

Secondly, don't forget _why_ Jiraiya did that, because it doesn't apply to Sakura.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Just the book.
> 
> "Won't hold back" _can_ carry the same meaning though.




It can. What did the entire translation say?




> Tsunade is not Jiraiya, firstly.
> 
> Secondly, don't forget _why_ Jiraiya did that, because it doesn't apply to Sakura.




Your argument is based on principle; it shouldn't matter. You question why a mster would try to kill their novice student. Well, Jiraiya clearly took a big risk with his.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 28, 2013)

Itachi doesn't exactly have anything that would kill Tsunade through her regeneration.

I think Itachi'd genjutsu her and attack, but then Tsunade would just heal. Granted, Tsunade isn't fast enough to touch itachi and kill him either.

Thing is when Itachi comes in close all Tsunade has to do is glance him or tank an attack then scramble his body movements. I think that's something Tsunade would do IC against a fast opponent. Itachi doesn't have knowledge on that raiton tech either so he has no need to worry about physical contact.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It can. What did the entire translation say?



_*"During this session, you must dodge all my attacks. I won't go easy on you."*_​


> Your argument is based on principle; it shouldn't matter. You question why a mster would try to kill their novice student. Well, Jiraiya clearly took a big risk with his.



It _should_ matter. Since when do each of the Sannin have the same teaching principles?

Jiraiya took a big risk because it was his only way to reach the big payoff. The case is completely different than Tsunade and Sakura's.


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## Ersa (Oct 28, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Itachi doesn't exactly have anything that would kill Tsunade through her regeneration.
> 
> I think Itachi'd genjutsu her and attack, but then Tsunade would just heal. Granted, Tsunade isn't fast enough to touch itachi and kill him either.
> 
> Thing is when Itachi comes in close all Tsunade has to do is glance him or tank an attack then scramble his body movements. I think that's something Tsunade would do IC against a fast opponent. Itachi doesn't have knowledge on that raiton tech either so he has no need to worry about physical contact.


If he gets her in genjutsu he can force her to disable regeneration. Itachi will worry about physical contact given he knows of the Sannin's prowess plus Sharingan can see chakra building up in the fist. As long as he's careful and doesn't get careless he won't get tagged.  The biggest game changer here is Katsuyu and whether Itachi can stop Tsunade summoning it.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 28, 2013)

If Tsunade managed to avoid being placed under a Genjutsu by five of Madara's Susano'o clones, I don't see Itachi successfully placing her under one either. Considering that Tsunade could tank Mabui's Tenso no Jutsu with relatively superficial damage (said technique operated at light-speed and was literally capable of ripping normal shinobi bodies to shreds), I don't see Itachi being able to do any real damage to her with his kunai knives, Suitons and Katons alone. He needs Amaterasu or Susano'o for that. Not that Itachi's Base Genjutsu would really have any lasting effect on someone who could cure the after-effects of Tsukuyomi with a simple tap and regular medical Ninjutsu.

Exploding clones are more dangerous, but Tsunade could easily recover from any of their explosions by relying on Sozo Saisei or Byakugou. Considering that Tsunade could hold her own against 5 Susano'o clones and even momentarily topple one of them in CQC, the same ones that could pin a super speedster like Ei down with their weapons and even successfully trap him in a moment of slight distraction, I don't see her having any problems with Itachi's speed or Taijutsu. She also reacted to being released from Mabui's Tenso no Jutsu (light-speed jutsu) fast enough to land a kick on the likes of Madara at the same time Ei punched Mu, forcing the latter to block as opposed to dodge.

This proves that Tsunade's reflexes are on par with those of a Base Ei, who in turn has reflexes on par with Minato, who in turn could react to Ei's maximum speed fast enough to use Hiraishin and get out of the way. Therefore it shouldn't be difficult for Tsunade to land a hit on Itachi at all. Itachi can't do anything to Tsunade, while Tsunade can easily destroy Itachi with her insane strength. A single finger is all it takes for her to kill him. The sheer shockwaves produced by her chakra-enhanced kicks and punches can also easily eliminate any number of clones that the Uchiha can produce. He also has no true counter for Katsuyu, outside of Susano'o (which he doesn't have here). In short? 

The Senju decimates the Uchiha in combat - as usual. Itachi needs Susano'o, not just the MS, to win.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 28, 2013)

I love the "Tsunade handled 5 Madaras" argument. 

The only thing Tsunade decimates in this fight is her self-respect.


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## Garcher (Oct 28, 2013)

How you think Tsunade stands a chance against him? We all know, Orochimaru, who is on the same level as Tsunade, got solod twice by Itachi. First time with 13 years and second time when Itachi was 99,9999% dead already. Oro, as Sannin, didn't last longer than 1 panel.

Itachi is clearly out of Tsunade's league.


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## LostSelf (Oct 28, 2013)

I don't agree much with Tsunade handling Madara's Susano'o, when all i saw was her with two big blades in her body, spitting blood and collapsing. It's clear that she got hit trying to hit the Susano'os, in wich she did no damage to them (Probably mere cracks), and in the end, she was on her knees. She's not equal to the five Susano'os, just like any other kage was at that point.

Also the same argument for genjutsu. Instead of assuming she avoided it, something she didn't, because she probably looked at Madara's eyes sometimes, i find it more likely that Madara just didn't use genjutsu on her, or any other kage. That's something we saw him not doing. I never saw him trying and failing, or Tsunade avoiing it.

Less skilled shinobis have put Kage level opponents in genjutsu before, and they didn't even know. One of them being Danzo. And someone _really_ trained (unlike them) to fight it, such as Deidara.

I say Madara had to restrain Ei to put him in genjutsu because he was too fast. And he was blocking all of Susano'os hits like blocking paper. Therefore Ei was being hard to fight there.

OT: Tsunade will eventually win with Katsuyu. Itachi's only chance is to put Katsuyu on genjutsu and force the summon to attack Tsunade, or just let it there being under the ilusion. But the chances are not good. But of course, he doesn't need to fight the summon, they can both look at their eyes waiting for who attacks first. Either way Tsunade has the luxury of getting hit, Itachi does not.


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## RedChidori (Oct 28, 2013)

In my humble opinion, I think Itachi wins via Finger Genjutsu. If Tsunade attempts to blitz, then all Itachi has to do is point his finger at her and it all goes downhill for Tsunade from there.


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## Bonly (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Location: Bell Test Area
> Distance: 25m
> Mindset: IC
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...





Itachi wins this more times then not. He managed to solo Madara(both young and old), solo Minato, solo the Juubi, and solo Galactus. Tsunade stands no chance and if she tries to summon the Great Katsuyu-Sama, the Itachi of summonings, then Katsuyu realize the power of Our King, Lord Itachi and they team up to take her out. The king does what he does best and solos :blindkatsuyu


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> _*"During this session, you must dodge all my attacks. I won't go easy on you."*_​




And before? What was the "...Now, I'm going to all out and attack you" part translated as?




> It _should_ matter. Since when do each of the Sannin have the same teaching principles?
> 
> Jiraiya took a big risk because it was his only way to reach the big payoff. The case is completely different than Tsunade and Sakura's.




_*"Tsunade obviously wasn't going to try to kill her successor while she was still fodder"*_

This has nothing to do with the Sannin's teaching methods. This is an argument that comes across as "why would a teacher try to kill his student when he's still a beginner?" That is a general statement, not specific to any one teacher.

Tell me, why *wouldn't* Tsunade attempt to kill Sakura if she deemed it effective?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> And before? What was the "...Now, I'm going to all out and attack you" part translated as?



Sorry, I thought you meant that entire bubble or something. The bubble before read:

_*"Now I will attack you in earnest."*_​
Actually, I think this is even more supportive: to attack in earnest is to attack to a greater extent than before, and since Tsunade introduced 'dodge all' as that current session's new mandate as she wouldn't be gentle this time, it's implied Sakura hadn't achieved such a thing earlier.

Do you expect Sakura's evasive ability to suddenly leap just because Tsunade isn't being gentle? Do you expect Tsunade to expect such a thing of Sakura?

I know it was filler, but I'm pretty sure it went down very similarly to Sakura's anime flashback, where Tsunade pushed Sakura into a tree and broke it and started instructing Sakura about paying attention to patterns (which fits in perfectly with the following manga-panel because she started talking about Sasori's pattern).



> This has nothing to do with the Sannin's teaching methods. This is an argument that comes across as "why would a teacher try to kill his student when he's still a beginner?" That is a general statement, not specific to any one teacher.
> 
> Tell me, why *wouldn't* Tsunade attempt to kill Sakura if she deemed it effective?



It would still have everything to do with the Sannin's teaching methods, Rocky, because your retort hinges on a detail specific to one teacher that is non-existant with Tsunade along with teachers in general.

Because it wouldn't be effective. . .There is no Bijū inside Sakura that responds to heightened emotion out of fear for its own life. Sakura will not suddenly ascend just because she's in danger, which is what Jiraiya was relying upon Naruto doing.

Honestly, you should be trying to explain why Tsunade _*would*_ defy all rationale and go all out in an attempt to kill a Sakura far less competent than the other people Tsunade has managed to lay her hands on even through handicaps. Because I'm looking and I don't think any such reason exists. Please enlighten me as to how Tier 1 Taijutsu, Tier 1 strength, Tier 1 speed Sakura whose Chakra control was not yet up to par with Tsunade is possibly supposed to evade all out Tsunade when significantly superior individuals could not evade her while gimped.

Common sense, Rocky. We have it for a reason.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2013)

Yeah, I loose. 

I was more just fucking around as I came across that scan and was like "  ." I never really had any sort of strong argument.  The viz translation completely shuts me down. 

I chose to put her against Itachi just because of Strat the fanbase.


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## RedChidori (Oct 28, 2013)

Exploding Kage Bunshin = GG.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, I loose.
> 
> I chose to put her against Itachi just because of Strat the fanbase.



Oh~. 

Enter sigh of relief.


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## pato454 (Oct 28, 2013)

itachi wins mid-high diff, he is faster and better in every single thing besides stamina and strength


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## Bringer (Oct 29, 2013)

Tsunade jumps up

And summons Katsuyu on him.

How many times do we have to go over this?


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2013)

At 25m, it can be a blitz still. Btw, Katon should actually be useful against Katsuyu, because heat damage should be very affective against a slug. For once, Katon can actually be useful lol. 

If the water at the bells test area is salt water, then Itachi low diffs Katsuyu.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> At 25m, it can be a blitz still. Btw, Katon should actually be useful against Katsuyu, because heat damage should be very affective against a slug. For once, Katon can actually be useful lol.
> 
> If the water at the bells test area is salt water, then Itachi low diffs Katsuyu.



lolblitz is fanfiction bullshit.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> lolblitz is fanfiction bullshit.



So are over half of your posts, but you don't see me complaining.


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> So are over half of your posts, but you don't see me complaining.



Yeah no. Kakashi is not blitzing at 25m. It's highly arguable if it's even possible for him to blitz her. Matter of fact, no. He's not blitzing her at all. Period. He isn't even close to a speedster, he just has high reactions. When has Itachi blitzed anyone? And I don't mean blindsided(if you chose to refer to KB vs Itachi) I mean a straight up blitz.


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## Ersa (Oct 29, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah no. Kakashi is not blitzing at 25m. It's highly arguable if it's even possible for him to blitz her. Matter of fact, no. He's not blitzing her at all. Period. He isn't even close to a speedster, he just has high reactions. When has Itachi blitzed anyone? And I don't mean blindsided(if you chose to refer to KB vs Itachi) I mean a straight up blitz.


What defines a speedster in your opinion then?

Itachi has a 5 in the DB in speed, possesses the Sharingan, tangoes with extremely fast opponents like SM Kabuto/B/KCM Naruto w/ without all could easily run circles around the comparatively slow Tsunade. I don't blitz Itachi can straight-up blitz her from 25m but it does stand that he is *much faster than her*. And I see him as the level of speed that's slower than the absolute fastest, so below Minato/V2 Ei/Obito (Jin)/KCM-BSM Naruto. Slightly superior to ungated Gai.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 29, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> When has Itachi blitzed anyone? And I don't mean blindsided(if you chose to refer to KB vs Itachi) I mean a straight up blitz.



Canonically, Itachi rarely (if ever) wants to kill his opponent, so



He tends to only blindside, even though he obviously could blitz if he wanted.



Here's an instance of Itachi blitzing Sharingan users. Yes, they're pretty random Uchiha, but they were elites among the clan, as Sasuke said only elites ever awoke the Sharingan or had 3-tomoes.

Besides, even Genin Sasuke, with 3-tomoes, was capable of tracking KN1 speed, and KN1 was easily blitzing 2-tomoe Sasuke with unweighted Lee (special Jōnin) speed. It's a serious feat. 

But all of Itachi's fights, and his databook scores, indicates that he's one of the fastest ninja in the series, really only below cloak users and Minato but essentially above every other ninja in the series.


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## Cord (Oct 29, 2013)

Itachi doesn't really have anything to put her down while in base, whereas Tsunade is allowed to use her Byakugo that makes her nigh immortal for those who wouldn't attempt for a straight-up head shot or decapitation. Itachi, however is definitely the more reflexive and faster fighter between the two, on top of having useful range attacks in the form of Katons and skilled weaponry to keep Tsunade at bay even just for a while. Because of that, Tsunade should still struggle pursuing him before eventually maiming him.

Or maybe, Katsuyu can just solo. It's kind of sad how summons nowadays seem to be even more overpowered than their masters.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 29, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> What defines a speedster in your opinion then?
> 
> Itachi has a 5 in the DB in speed, possesses the Sharingan, tangoes with extremely fast opponents like SM Kabuto/B/KCM Naruto w/ without all could easily run circles around the comparatively slow Tsunade. I don't blitz Itachi can straight-up blitz her from 25m but it does stand that he is *much faster than her*. And I see him as the level of speed that's slower than the absolute fastest, so below Minato/V2 Ei/Obito (Jin)/KCM-BSM Naruto. Slightly superior to ungated Gai.



DB is trash.

Sickly Itachi is only high jounin level, about on par with Kakashi after he got his MS.
Take away his MS and he is a shit fodder jounin!


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## Tengu (Oct 29, 2013)

Tsunade is to slow to land a hit on Itachi, that's how it is, her Byakugo can keep her alive some time, but the technique doesn't last forever and takes a large amount of chakra.
Katsuyu has no combat feats, i doubt Tsunade will summon it in the first place, she didn't use it against Madara, and even if she did, Itachi can dodge the acid and use genjutsu both on Katsuyu and on Tsunade.

When will people understand that Tsunade is specialised in healing not fighting,

Itachi wins with medium-difficulty.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 29, 2013)

Tengu said:


> Tsunade is to slow to land a hit on Itachi, that's how it is, her Byakugo can keep her alive some time, but the technique doesn't last forever and takes a large amount of chakra.
> Katsuyu has no combat feats, i doubt Tsunade will summon it in the first place, she didn't use it against Madara, and even if she did, Itachi can dodge the acid and use genjutsu both on Katsuyu and on Tsunade.
> 
> When will people understand that Tsunade is specialised in healing not fighting,
> ...



Wanker.

Sickly Itachi is only high jounin level, about on par with Kakashi after he got his MS.
Take away his MS and he is a shit fodder jounin!

A fodder jounin isn't beating Tsunade!


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## Ersa (Oct 29, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> *Itachi doesn't really have anything to put her down while in base, whereas Tsunade is allowed to use her Byakugo that makes her nigh immortal for those who wouldn't attempt for a straight-up head shot or decapitation*. Itachi, however is definitely the more reflexive and faster fighter between the two, on top of having useful range attacks in the form of Katons and skilled weaponry to keep Tsunade at bay even just for a while. Because of that, Tsunade should still struggle pursuing him before eventually maiming him.
> 
> Or maybe, Katsuyu can just solo. It's kind of sad how summons nowadays seem to be even more overpowered than their masters.


Genjutsu can allow him to make her disable it? I don't think Byakugo is a major factor here, sadly her summon seems to be


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## pato454 (Oct 29, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Wanker.
> 
> Sickly Itachi is only high jounin level, about on par with Kakashi after he got his MS.
> Take away his MS and he is a shit fodder jounin!
> ...


itachi can't lose  

*Spoiler*: _Part 1_ 
















*Spoiler*: _Part 2_ 



chakra
Link removed
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seriously Base Itachi beats tsunade any day


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## johnsuwey (Oct 29, 2013)

pato454 said:


> itachi can't lose
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Part 1_
> 
> ...



Lol more wank!
Sick itachi is Fodder jounin without sharingan, sorry.

For instance, think about how hebi sasuke was dominating him prior to the MS came into play.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 29, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> How you think Tsunade stands a chance against him? We all know, Orochimaru, who is on the same level as Tsunade, got solod twice by Itachi. First time with 13 years and second time when Itachi was 99,9999% dead already. Oro, as Sannin, didn't last longer than 1 panel.
> 
> Itachi is clearly out of Tsunade's league.



What are you talking about? Itachi clearly needed Susano'o in order to put Orochimaru down for good, something he doesn't even have here. The OP clearly specified that he is not allowed to use the MS at all here, and Susano'o is a MS technique. You're also ignoring the fact that it's supposed to be Itachi's strongest move and also makes him near blind, yet he clearly needed it to defeat Orochimaru. Tsunade is also a lot faster and more skilled in CQC than Orochimaru is, and has superior natural durability as well, as she could tank Mabui's Tenso no Jutsu - a technique that could rip the bodies of normal shinobi to shreds. No way in hell is a kunai putting Tsunade down. 



Strategoob said:


> I love the "Tsunade handled 5 Madaras" argument.
> 
> The only thing Tsunade decimates in this fight is her self-respect.



No one is saying that Tsunade handled 5 Madaras or anything, stop putting words in my mouth. The fact of the matter is that Tsunade was able to hold her own against 5 of Madara's Susano'o-enhanced clones and avoid being ensnared in Genjutsu by a single one of them. If they couldn't put her under an illusion, Itachi sure as hell can't. Keep in mind that these are the same type of clones that captured Ei in an illusion and nearly killed him too, and the same type that soloed even Mei and Gaara in separate fights. 

Oh, and please don't use the excuse 'he was distracted'. That's a pathetic excuse. Ei was already being pinned down by one of the Susano'o clones while he was talking to Tsunade, it's just that his one second of shock at Tsunade's physical condition made it easier still for the Susano'o clones to gang up on him and restrain him. Considering that you're the guy who seems to ignore the clear possibility of Bee being distracted in the instances of Itachi 'blitzing' him, it would be hypocritical of you to use 'being distracted' as an excuse for Ei being tagged, caught and killed by the clones when Tsunade wasn't (at least she was neither caught by them nor killed by them!).


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## Raiken (Oct 29, 2013)

If Itachi can get Tsunade in a Genjutsu right of the get go, he wins.
However, Naruto "almost" broke out of one of his Standard Genjutsu at the beginning of Shippuden.
Who's to say Tsunade, who has superior Chakra Control (at least at that point in the series), cannot.
Anyway, Itachi can probably kill her fast enough before she brakes out anyway since it's a 1v1.

Scenario 1: Itachi manages to get her in Genjutsu right at the start, goes for killing stroke very quickly before she's able to get out of it, Itachi wins.

Scenario 2: Itachi does not manages to trap her in Genjutsu straight away, and they engage in Taijutsu/Ninjutsu, Tsunade uses Byakugo, Itachi holds his own for a little with Sharingan Perception and Katons. The area of effect of Tsunade's attacks quickly overwhelm Itachi, Tsunade gets a fatal blow in, Tsunade Wins.

Tsunade wins 8/10 times; since I believe she would not let her self be trapped by Genjutsu so easily, like early Part 2 Naruto did.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> But all of Itachi's fights, and his databook scores, indicates that he's one of the fastest ninja in the series, really only below cloak users and Minato but essentially above every other ninja in the series.




Gai is much faster, and Lee most likely is, depending on how effective he is with the Gates. Then there's Madara, who (despite having limited movement feats) is more or less on Itachi's speed tier. Madara's reflex feats against the Raikage were very good, and movement tends to go hand in hand with that.


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Gai is much faster, and Lee most likely is, depending on how effective he is with the Gates. Then there's Madara, who (despite having limited movement feats) is more or less on Itachi's speed tier. Madara's reflex feats against the Raikage were very good, and movement tends to go hand in hand with that.



Then there is Tobirama which has basically been confirmed faster then Itachi. His reactions eclipse his, and his Shunshin is literally legendary at this point.

Then there's SM Kabuto, SM Naruto, SM Jirayia, KB, And Hashirama who are all faster then Itachi. 
Itachi really isn't that fast. Several character can out pace him.


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> What defines a speedster in your opinion then?
> 
> Itachi has a 5 in the DB in speed, possesses the Sharingan, tangoes with extremely fast opponents like SM Kabuto/B/KCM Naruto w/ without all could easily run circles around the comparatively slow Tsunade. I don't blitz Itachi can straight-up blitz her from 25m but it does stand that he is *much faster than her*. And I see him as the level of speed that's slower than the absolute fastest, so below Minato/V2 Ei/Obito (Jin)/KCM-BSM Naruto. Slightly superior to ungated Gai.



Yeah, I don't really agree with this. I see large number of ninja being faster then Itachi, he's feats aren't really that great to be Honest;
-Kept up with Base Naruto and Kakashi
- Kept up with Hebi Sasuke
- Kept up with Base Bee
- As a team managed defeat Nagato
- Kept up with SM Kabuto

Not that impressive, IMO. His greatest feat was landing strikes on SM Kabuto, and I think his speed is severely overrated. Sasuke was also landing attacks, And he is about even with V1 Ay, so I put him at about that level. Characters like Ay-Bee-Naruto-Obito-Minato-Tobirama- Nagato- SM Jirayia- Hashirama-Gai- and possibly Kakashi are all faster then this so no, I don't see Itachi blitzing Tsunade when I out her between Base and V1 Ay speed wise.


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## Kai (Oct 29, 2013)

Itachi "sparring" with KCM Naruto and Bee simultaneously was pretty ridiculous for an Uchiha relying on pure physical movements. Even if the two jins weren't going all out, there wouldn't be a need to in a 2v1 exchange of their CQC caliber - and Itachi still managed to spar with both of them without getting hit.

He's no top tier in speed but he's at the summit of the high tier and his databook ranking of 5 is well expressed in the manga.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Itachi "sparring" with KCM Naruto and Bee simultaneously




That feat is a myth. Itachi skirmished with Naruto in free-fall, meaning Naruto could not use his impressive foot speed (still a good reaction feat for Itachi). Naruto was also weakened considering he had clones spread throughout the War.

Itachi & Naruto did not exchange blows on the ground. When Bee joined, Itachi immediately retreated back. Both Bee & Naruto alone demanded Itachi's full attention, and Bee had him on the defensive.


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Itachi "sparring" with KCM Naruto and Bee simultaneously was pretty ridiculous for an Uchiha relying on pure physical movements. Even if the two jins weren't going all out, there wouldn't be a need to in a 2v1 exchange of their CQC caliber - and Itachi still managed to spar with both of them without getting hit.
> 
> He's no top tier in speed but he's at the summit of the high tier and his databook ranking of 5 is well expressed in the manga.



I don't find that impressive considering my was BASE bee and a complete CASUAL KCM Naruto that even engaged in conversation mid battle. A casual KCM Naruto and Base Bee aren't even use to speedsters.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 29, 2013)

As far as I'm concerned, Tsunade battled against Madara Uchiha and his Susano'o clones for several hours without being placed in an illusion. Any time she landed hits she was evidently not looking into his eyes, so it's safe to assume she won't look into Itachi's either. Finger genjutsu are easily broken out of too. I don't think genjutsu will play any significant role in this battle.

As some other posters have said, Tsunade will struggle to land any hits, however, with greater stamina and higher taijutsu ability she will land one eventually - even if it's only a graze. Furthermore with enough chakra input she can summon a very, very large Katsuyu. Her summon could outright solo.​​


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## Kai (Oct 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That feat is a myth.


Itachi having a taijutsu fight with KCM Naruto/Bee and equaling them is a myth.

Itachi having a taijutsu spar with both simultaneously is not a myth at all.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Itachi & Naruto did not exchange blows on the ground.






			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> When Bee joined, Itachi immediately retreated back. Both Bee & Naruto demanded Itachi's full attention, and Bee alone had him on the defensive.


Here's the page.



Both Bee and Naruto attacked Itachi respectively. Itachi blocked Naruto's punches while simultaneously evading Bee's strikes with Samehada, and then retreated back. EDIT: I was wrong here, they attacked him once.

That's incredibly impressive agility and physical reflexes even if it was just a spar and _especially_ for an Uchiha.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Itachi having a taijutsu spar with both simultaneously is not a myth at all.




Yes it is.



My bad, Itachi threw one kick upon landing on the ground, which Naruto blocked.




> Both Bee and Naruto attacked Itachi twice each respectively. Itachi blocked both of Naruto's punches while simultaneously evading both of Bee's strikes with Samehada, and then retreated back.




Bee swung his sword one time, and Naruto threw one punch...Itachi blocked Naruto's blow, and his retreat doubled as evasion of Bee's one swing. 

One punch and one swing is not "sparring" in any sense of the word.


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## Kai (Oct 29, 2013)

Yeah, I was wrong they each attacked him once.

Still, he evaded Bee's strike behind him while occupied with Naruto. There's obvious credibility there that shouldn't be inflated but also by no means should just be dismissed.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Yeah, I was wrong they each attacked him once.
> 
> Still, he evaded Bee's strike behind him while occupied with Naruto. There's obvious credibility there that shouldn't be inflated but also by no means should just be dismissed.




There is no debate on Itachi's agility and reflexes being anything less than top notch. I just get mildly agitated when somebody says Itachi sparred with both Bee & Naruto simultaneously, as that entails exchanging multiple blows with them both at the same time.


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## kaminogan (Oct 29, 2013)

wouldn't an anime video be better in this situation ?

since characters are shown fighting more ?

doesn't have it fully active


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2013)

Anime is non canon, as Kishimoto doesn't make it.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 29, 2013)

Is this healthy Itachi ? And what the hell is base Itachi ? He can't use Susano'o ? Itachi still have Amaterasu and some impressive reaction time going for him .


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 29, 2013)

Itachi isn't on Tsunade's level in base. A mini Katsuya feeding her chakra and/or avoiding eye contact can help deal with genjutsu. Katons are dodged like Sakura did 400 chapters ago. Suitons are knocked away like Gai did to Kisame's except Kisame's suitons are stronger and Gai is physically weaker so she does it far easier. This leaves bunshins/taijutsu left for Itachi while Tsunade has barely shown off her arsenal. Tsunade has taijutsu skill beyond Itachi's and 1.5 tier speed gap isn't that big of a deal. Naruto vs Kiba, Ino, Shikamaru, Chouji vs Asuma, Suigetsu/Juugo vs Yondaime Raikage, Kisame vs Gai, Kurenai vs Itachi, Hidan vs Asuma, Hiruzen vs Orochimaru, etc all show 1-2 speed gaps not playing a huge role and the slower shinobi reacting just fine. She blocks his attacks just fine. The issue is with her strength HE can not block so that limits his abilities in CQC. He will get hit and will need a bunshin feint or two to survive in CQC with her. But he will drain his chakra. With her durability, she can take a few punches or kunai slashes. Byakugou/Genesis Rebirth make this fight easy for her. She can tank a kunai stab to the gut just to make him open to finishing punch. Katsuya is overkill.

Tsunade with moderate difficulty.


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## Bonly (Oct 29, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> As far as I'm concerned, Tsunade battled against Madara Uchiha and his Susano'o clones for several hours without being placed in an illusion.​​



Wow what a shocker. 



kaminogan said:


> wouldn't an anime video be better in this situation ?
> 
> since characters are shown fighting more ?
> 
> it.



Anime isn't considered canon so people generally don't use it unless it's stated in the OP.



OBDNewbie said:


> Is this healthy Itachi ? And what the hell is base Itachi ? He can't use Susano'o ? Itachi still have Amaterasu and some impressive reaction time going for him .



BAse Itachi means Itachi without being able to use the MS.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah no. Kakashi is not blitzing at 25m. It's highly arguable if it's even possible for him to blitz her. Matter of fact, no. He's not blitzing her at all. Period. He isn't even close to a speedster, he just has high reactions. When has Itachi blitzed anyone? And I don't mean blindsided(if you chose to refer to KB vs Itachi) I mean a straight up blitz.



Yeah, he already blitzed Kurenai who is faster than Tsunade.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Kurenai who is faster than Tsunade.



. . . . .No.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> . . . . .No.



Well, you can choose to ignore the databook, but you're going against information from Kishimoto.


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## Garcher (Oct 29, 2013)

Itachi wins via canon


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## FlamingRain (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Well, you can choose to ignore the databook, but you're going against information from Kishimoto.



I'm really not.

Shizune has a 4 as well, Orochimaru a 4.5; rusty Tsunade squatted down shat all over those scores.

In all likelihood she has a more refined _Shunshin_, which is a Ninjutsu, while the databook doesn't consider enhancements.


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Well, you can choose to ignore the databook, but you're going against information from Kishimoto.



Ha. Part 1 rusty Tsunade. Not current Tsunade, so that's irrelevant nonetheless. Anyways DB, are absolute trash, it has Lee above Hiruzen and Shizune above Tsunade in speed, both which are ridiculous.

Even if you chose to use said DB, you have to take into consideration that Tsunade has a 5 in Ninjustu and is an absolute master at controlling her chakra so her shunshin should atleast be impressive.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Ha. Part 1 rusty Tsunade. Not current Tsunade, so that's irrelevant nonetheless. Anyways DB, are absolute trash, it has Lee above Hiruzen and Shizune above Tsunade in speed, both which are ridiculous.
> 
> Even if you chose to use said DB, you have to take into consideration that Tsunade has a 5 in Ninjustu and is an absolute master at controlling her chakra so her shunshin should atleast be impressive.




What if I told you that being a Kage or Jounin Shinobi doesn't automatically make you fast, and being a Gennin or Chuunin doesn't automatically make you slow....


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm really not.
> 
> Shizune has a 4 as well, Orochimaru a 4.5; rusty Tsunade squatted down shat all over those scores.
> 
> In all likelihood she has a more refined _Shunshin_, which is a Ninjutsu, while the databook doesn't consider enhancements.



How did Tsunade shat over those scores? Because she landed a surprise hit to both of them? That's not an excuse to say that the scores are wrong. 

Shunshin has nothing to do with her reaction timing. 



Likes boss said:


> Ha. Part 1 rusty Tsunade. Not current Tsunade, so that's irrelevant nonetheless. Anyways DB, are absolute trash, it has Lee above Hiruzen and Shizune above Tsunade in speed, both which are ridiculous.
> 
> Even if you chose to use said DB, you have to take into consideration that Tsunade has a 5 in Ninjustu and is an absolute master at controlling her chakra so her shunshin should atleast be impressive.



If you say the DBs are trash, you're calling Kishimoto trash essentially. And Tsunade's 3.5 stat is in the *Third Databook*, which is Part II up until the very end of the Itachi pursuit arc. What has Tsunade done since then? She used healing to protect the village, which has nothing to do with speed, and then she was unconscious until the War. So there is nothing indicating that her speed has increased by any means since the Third Databook's coverage.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> How did Tsunade shat over those scores? Because she landed a surprise hit to both of them? That's not an excuse to say that the scores are wrong.



It isn't an excuse, it's a _reason_ that the score alone means nothing.

Don't bring me this shitty "they were surprised" excuse.

Shizune just said she was going to stop Tsunade even if it meant her life, Tsunade more or less gave her a warning when she turned and said watch what she says; she knew very well Tsunade was agitated enough to attack her at that point.

Orochimaru was watching injured Tsunade intently enough to notice her shaking stop, yet couldn't dodge before she got up, jumped over Naruto, and kicked him in the face.

They were both paying attention, there is no surprise excuse.



> Shunshin has nothing to do with her reaction timing.



And since when is Tsunade's reaction timing below Tsunade's? The speed statistic isn't solely about reactions. Hell, Tsunade's statistic only equalized to a 3.5 because she wears high-heels.

Tsunade's reaction feats eclipse Kurenai's.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 29, 2013)

3.5 isn't bad. Hidan reacted to Asuma's 4.5 speed while avoiding Shikamaru's kage mane. Kurenai's 4 reacted to Itachi's 5+sharingan after just coming out of a genjutsu. Hiruzen's 3  (while also exhausted) reacted to Orochimaru's 4.5. Kisame's 4 reacted to Gai's 5. Naruto's 2 reacted to Kiba's 3.5 + 4 legged jutsu (enhances speed greatly). Suigetsu/Juugo (unknown) reacted to Yondaime Raikage's 5+. 

The speed stat is cool, it is just overrated. Tsunade's 3.5 can react to Itachi's 5 just fine.


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> How did Tsunade shat over those scores? Because she landed a surprise hit to both of them? That's not an excuse to say that the scores are wrong.
> 
> Shunshin has nothing to do with her reaction timing.
> 
> ...



Basically yes. He completely contradicts himself contantly. And what are you trying to say? Notice I said CURRENT Tsunade, not Tusnade during the pain arc. Notice how her stats completely stay the same? Because she didn't do any fighting between Part 1 and the Pain arc. 

But now she kinda fought Madara for complete hours and gained a huge amount of Speed and reflex feats. So using old DB stats to reflect on a character is useless, kinda like using Part 1 Kakashi or Sasuke feats.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> It isn't an excuse, it's a _reason_ that the score alone means nothing.
> 
> Don't bring me this shitty "they were surprised" excuse.



It isn't an excuse. It's the _reason_ that they got hit. In Orochimaru's case, he knew she had a fear of blood until that point and he couldn't have predicted that she would overcome it at that very moment. 



> Shizune just said she was going to stop Tsunade even if it meant her life, Tsunade more or less gave her a warning when she turned and said watch what she says; she knew very well Tsunade was agitated enough to attack her at that point.



To full on attack her? I'm not so sure that she was ready for something like that. Not yet at least. She hadn't even put up her guard yet.



> Orochimaru was watching injured Tsunade intently enough to notice her shaking stop, yet couldn't dodge before she got up, jumped over Naruto, and kicked him in the face.



Oh please. You know as well as I do that he wasn't expecting an attack from someone with a fear of blood.



> And since when is Tsunade's reaction timing below Tsunade's? The speed statistic isn't solely about reactions. Hell, Tsunade's statistic only equalized to a 3.5 because she wears high-heels.
> 
> Tsunade's reaction feats eclipse Kurenai's.



I'm assuming you meant Kurenai in that first sentence. Yes, the speed stat is swiftness of movement and reactions. Tsunade is in a lower tier and so she is overall slower. It's that simple. She will not be able to react to Itachi's Shunshin.



Likes boss said:


> Basically yes. He completely contradicts himself contantly. And what are you trying to say? Notice I said CURRENT Tsunade, not Tusnade during the pain arc. Notice how her stats completely stay the same? Because she didn't do any fighting between Part 1 and the Pain arc.
> 
> But now she kinda fought Madara for complete hours and gained a huge amount of Speed and reflex feats. So using old DB stats to reflect on a character is useless, kinda like using Part 1 Kakashi or Sasuke feats.



Most of that fight happened off panel, so trying to give a time frame is stupid and assumptive. Hours is not accurate anyway. I doubt that fight lasted very long at all.

If you think Kishi is trash, what are you doing here?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> It isn't an excuse. It's the _reason_ that they got hit. In Orochimaru's case, he knew she had a fear of blood until that point and he couldn't have predicted that she would overcome it at that very moment.



Orochimaru noticed the trembling stop, Tsunade _then_ jumped up and over Naruto to strike him from a a very inconvenient position. It follows naturally what was going to happen the moment he saw it stop, eliminating surprise; he wasn't fast enough to get out of the way.



> To full on attack her? I'm not so sure that she was ready for something like that. Not yet at least. She hadn't even put up her guard yet.



Yes to full on attack her. We as the readers should have expected that, and Shizune knows Tsunade a whole lot better than any of us do. Put up a guard against someone who would just break her arm and KO her anyway? She would have been ready to dodge, not block, there is no need for a guard. She was as prepared as she ever would be as soon as she made a threat to Tsunade.



> Oh please. You know as well as I do that he wasn't expecting an attack from someone with a fear of blood.



He still noticed it, and obviously an attack can be expected after the trembling of a very angry person vanishes.



> I'm assuming you meant Kurenai in that first sentence. Yes, the speed stat is swiftness of movement and reactions. Tsunade is in a lower tier and so she is overall slower. It's that simple.



It really isn't because reflexes and direct movement capacity don't actually go hand in hand.

There are discrepancies and disparities in those two things even in real life. I can assure you that the quickest track star isn't always the one to react to the starting shot first.

Kurenai has no reaction feats to put her above Tsunade, the databook also isn't necessarily confirmation. So, Tsunade has better reactions until proven otherwise.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Orochimaru noticed the trembling stop, Tsunade _then_ jumped up and over Naruto to strike him from a a very inconvenient position. It follows naturally what was going to happen the moment he saw it stop, eliminating surprise; he wasn't fast enough to get out of the way.



It's because he wasn't expecting it, you just refuse to accept that. He was still surprised her trembling stopped by the time he got hit. They were avoiding her just fine when they knew she was attacking. That is your hard proof right there. 



> Yes to full on attack her. We as the readers should have expected that, and Shizune knows Tsunade a whole lot better than any of us do. Put up a guard against someone who would just break her arm and KO her anyway? She would have been ready to dodge, not block, there is no need for a guard. She was as prepared as she ever would be as soon as she made a threat to Tsunade.



She said, "Who do you think you're talking to?". That's hardly a threat, but merely questioning her tone and lack of respect. Her guard was still not fully up. 



> He still noticed it, and obviously an attack can be expected after the trembling of a very angry person vanishes.



Nope. There was no vanishing. She got up and punched. It caught Orochimaru off guard. Why can't you see that? When she attacked head on, Orochimaru and Kabuto could dodge with relative ease. 



> It really isn't because reflexes and direct movement capacity don't actually go hand in hand.



The higher your speed is, the more speed you're used to, unless you've trained your speed against someone much higher and have gotten used to it or have a Sharingan. While it's true that higher reflexes don't = higher speed, the opposite is usually true.



> There are discrepancies and disparities in those two things even in real life. I can assure you that the quickest track star isn't always the one to react to the starting shot first.



That's sound reaction though, not exactly reaction to speeds coming at you. The quickest track star should be able to dodge dodgeballs much better than a strong track star unless one has more training to dodge them over the other.



> Kurenai has no reaction feats to put her above Tsunade, the databook also isn't necessarily confirmation. So, Tsunade has better reactions until proven otherwise.



Well, she was able to react to Itachi's Kunai attack when she broke Genjutsu and she was able to block a kick from Itachi even though it sent her flying. But of course, right after, he blitzed her with Shunshin. Tsunade does not have any reaction feats to be able to dodge that. A 3.5 in speed is not going to get away from a 5. That is certain. Even without DB info, Itachi's blitzing and Jutsu speed are way too much for her to even think of getting away. Even if she dodges, she could be running right into a Crow Clone because of how quickly he can make that clone.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> It's because he wasn't expecting it, you just refuse to accept that. He was still surprised her trembling stopped by the time he got hit. They were avoiding her just fine when they knew she was attacking. That is your hard proof right there.



No, you refuse to acknowledge that as soon as an opponent is no longer trembling from a phobia they would be expected to attack. Orochimaru had his eyes on Tsunade and is an extremely smart individual. Tsunade's attack was not a surprise one, _everyone_ would have known it was coming as soon as the trembling stopped (which again was before Tsunade jumped over Naruto and decked him).

They were "avoiding her just fine" when they started at a distance and Tsunade had two targets instead of just one. Kabuto then took some steroids before he actually got closer and he still wound up being hit.



> She said, "Who do you think you're talking to?". That's hardly a threat, but merely questioning her tone and lack of respect. Her guard was still not fully up.



I said Shizune made a threat to Tsunade. "I'm going to stop you" is a threat, Tsunade's glaring "Dont you dare take that tone with me" is also threatening.

Naturally you're ready once you go telling somebody you'll give up your life stopping them. That being a surprise is nothing more than wishful thinking.



> Nope. There was no vanishing. She got up and punched. It caught Orochimaru off guard. Why can't you see that? When she attacked head on, Orochimaru and Kabuto could dodge with relative ease.



You're saying the trembling didn't vanish? Are you fucking serious!?

_Damn_!

_(1)_ It could not be any more clear that the trembling stopped and Orochimaru took notice before Tsunade got up. That was every bit as head-on as earlier, it just wasn't from as far of a starting distance. Actually, Tsunade even closed that initial distance before they moved a muscle, and they only managed to get out of dodge when she entered free-fall after her jump. After that they had these really convenient obstructions to run across until Tsunade wore herself out.

And "relative ease" my foot. They had both worked up a sweat before Kabuto took steroids and finally approached her _getting hit three times_.



> That's sound reaction though, not exactly reaction to speeds coming at you. The quickest track star should be able to dodge dodgeballs much better than a strong track star unless one has more training to dodge them over the other.



I'm on the track team, believe me, reactions _period_ don't consistently correlate with running speed.

Taijutsu specialist Tsunade should have a lot more training in dodging than Genjutsu specialist Kurenai, btw.



> Well, she was able to react to Itachi's Kunai attack when she broke Genjutsu and she was able to block a kick from Itachi even though it sent her flying. But of course, right after, he blitzed her with Shunshin. Tsunade does not have any reaction feats to be able to dodge that. A 3.5 in speed is not going to get away from a 5. That is certain. Even without DB info, Itachi's blitzing and Jutsu speed are way too much for her to even think of getting away. Even if she dodges, she could be running right into a Crow Clone because of how quickly he can make that clone.



Reacting by the skin of your teeth to a casual Kunai slash and kick from an Itachi that was stated to not even by trying isn't great enough to say she's greater than Tsunade.

Being out of breath on top of being twenty or more years out of practice and managing to evade an enhanced Kabuto's Doton from a few inches away from a direction you're not facing actually is more impressive, and so is stopping Manda before he can snap his jaws shut. Even more impressive still is managing to kick quickly moving already in melee-range Madara fresh out of Mabui's _Tensō no Jutsu_.

Dodging and reacting are also not the same thing- I agree if Itachi wants to run Tsunade down he can and will, but my contention was not with that claim, it was with your claim that Kurenai is faster than Tsunade and that Tsunade will be blitzed on the grounds that a Kurenai caught up in the knockback of Itachi's kick didn't see him.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> They were "avoiding her just fine" when they started at a distance and Tsunade had two targets instead of just one. Kabuto then took some steroids before he actually got closer and he still wound up being hit.



Kabuto hadn't taken a single hit before Tsunade and him ran out of breath. The only times Kabuto had ever taken a hit from Tsunade was once again, a surprise hit.



> I agree if Itachi wants to run Tsunade down he can and will



Great, then I don't even need to contest your points any further. That's all I was trying to say anyway even if things derailed big time. At 25 meters, Itachi can outspeed the shit out of her and she won't be able to keep up. That much is certain.


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> It isn't an excuse. It's the _reason_ that they got hit. In Orochimaru's case, he knew she had a fear of blood until that point and he couldn't have predicted that she would overcome it at that very moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What does a time frame have to do with my point exactly? My point is that she gained NEW and BETTER feats.

I don't think he's complete trash, just his DB is complete trash.

@rocky
It does in the examples I used. I'm not seeing Pre time skip Lee> legendary 3rd Hokage even if we are talking about a foot race. & Tsunade is better then Shizune in everybody way based on hype and feats.


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## Ersa (Oct 29, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> What does a time frame have to do with my point exactly? My point is that she gained NEW and BETTER feats.
> 
> I don't think he's complete trash, *just his DB is complete trash*.
> 
> ...


The Databook is still canon, it should be used to supplement arguments but not form the crux of them. You can't call it trash simply because it makes your favorite characters look worse. There are some inconsistencies but the same can be said of the manga.

I don't think Itachi will be blitzing her but if you don't think his speed offers a very big advantage here than you're honesting kidding yourself. Also I don't see why unweighted Gates Lee can't be faster, he's still several tiers weaker at that point


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> The Databook is still canon, it should be used to supplement arguments but not form the crux of them. You can't call it trash simply because it makes your favorite characters look worse. There are some inconsistencies but the same can be said of the manga.
> 
> I don't think Itachi will be blitzing her but if you don't think his speed offers a very big advantage here than you're honesting kidding yourself. Also I don't see why unweighted Gates Lee can't be faster, he's still several tiers weaker at that point



I'm not going to sit here and explain to you why the DB is completely illogical . Your just gonna disagree and use the same logic of; it's canon.

But like I've said many times, the DB DOES NOT BREACH THE WAR ARC, making it completely useless. It doesn't show the plethora of feats Tsunade accomplished during her battle with Madara.


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## Ersa (Oct 29, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not going to sit here and explain to you why the DB is completely illogical . Your just gonna disagree and use the same logic of; it's canon.
> 
> But like I've said many times, the DB DOES NOT BREACH THE WAR ARC, making it completely useless. It doesn't show the plethora of feats Tsunade accomplished during her battle with Madara.


It's not illogical, it just shouldn't be used as the base of an argument. And it is canon, it's a pretty valid reason.

I agree, this isn't rusty Tsunade but the difference between rusty Tsunade and Itachi was so great that even with her new feats (not to mention Itachi's) he's still much faster and it'll come into play here. No one's using DB as their sole argument either.


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## kaminogan (Oct 30, 2013)

i wonder why shun-shin dosent leave a cloud of smoke anymore,


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2013)

Tsunade stomps Base Itachi with Katsuya. There is no way in hell Itachi is evading hundreds of Slugs all able to spit acid and split into thousands of smaller slugs or turn into goo that covers a massive portion of the battlefield and if Itachi touches it he gets reverse shosen'd to death, all while Tsunade destroys his foot hold with smashy-smashy. Plus short of cutting Tsunade's head off there is nothing he can do to take her out thanks to Byakugo and with Katsuya there, there is no way in hell Itachi is managing to cut her head off. 

Restrict Katsuya, if you want Itachi to stand any chance whatsoever.


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## Veracity (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> It's not illogical, it just shouldn't be used as the base of an argument. And it is canon, it's a pretty valid reason.
> 
> I agree, this isn't rusty Tsunade but the difference between rusty Tsunade and Itachi was so great that even with her new feats (not to mention Itachi's) he's still much faster and it'll come into play here. No one's using DB as their sole argument either.



It's also canon that Jirayia> Itachi and Kisame yet nobody agrees to this. Because it's illogical, just like the DB. Kishi doesn't think about every little detail, he tends to contradict himself my mistake. 

I agree somewhat. I think Itachi obviosuly hold the speed advantage but IMO no that much. Possibly by .5 considering Shizune has a 4 I'm speed in part 1. His speed advantage isn't going to allow him to blitz her throughout the battle at battle at all. It gives him an advantage, but Tsunade being a complete tank does more so.


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## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> It's also canon that Jirayia> Itachi and Kisame yet nobody agrees to this. Because it's illogical, just like the DB. Kishi doesn't think about every little detail, he tends to contradict himself my mistake.
> 
> I agree somewhat. I think Itachi obviosuly hold the speed advantage but IMO no that much. Possibly by .5 considering Shizune has a 4 I'm speed in part 1. His speed advantage isn't going to allow him to blitz her throughout the battle at battle at all. It gives him an advantage, but Tsunade being a complete tank does more so.


No it's not, it's a mistranslation.

It was stated that they'd kill each other, meaning Itachi and Jiraiya would die in a fight to the death. It suggests equality, all we know is Itachi >=< Jiraiya >> Kisame.  Itachi is so much faster than Shizune, he'd never ever get tagged by Kabuto surprise or not, he'd literally grab him by the feet and smack him to death. I agree he won't blitz but Tsunade will never tag him unless he lets his guard down which he won't. Katsuyu is the game-changer here.


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## Veracity (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> No it's not, it's a mistranslation.
> 
> It was stated that they'd kill each other, meaning Itachi and Jiraiya would die in a fight to the death. It suggests equality, all we know is Itachi >=< Jiraiya >> Kisame.  Itachi is so much faster than Shizune, he'd never ever get tagged by Kabuto surprise or not, he'd literally grab him by the feet and smack him to death. I agree he won't blitz but Tsunade will never tag him unless he lets his guard down which he won't. Katsuyu is the game-changer here.



Show me the translation.

And your basically using feats to come to that conclusion, but not the DB(which I agree with, but you seem to think DB are holy)

How so would Itachi never get hit by Shizune or Kabuto, when Hidan was landing hits and parrying attacks on Kakashi and Asuma who both have 1 point speed advantage?  Goes to show that just because Itachi has a speed advantage over Tsunade(probably by .5, Tsunade is undoubtley faster then Shizune and is probabaly faster then Asuma) doesn't mean she won't be landing hits and parrying Kunai strikes. The difference is , you can't parry a hit from Tsunade without getting your torso torn into 9 pieces. So yeah I still don't agree with you.


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## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Show me the translation.
> 
> And your basically using feats to come to that conclusion, but not the DB(which I agree with, but you seem to think DB are holy)
> 
> How so would Itachi never get hit by Shizune or Kabuto, when Hidan was landing hits and parrying attacks on Kakashi and Asuma who both have 1 point speed advantage?  Goes to show that just because Itachi has a speed advantage over Tsunade(probably by .5, Tsunade is undoubtley faster then Shizune and is probabaly faster then Asuma) doesn't mean she won't be landing hits and parrying Kunai strikes. The difference is , you can't parry a hit from Tsunade without getting your torso torn into 9 pieces. So yeah I still don't agree with you.


Viz translation (aka. the best): 

_Kisame - He's in a different league, even if you might be able to take him on. I'm not so sure about me.
Itachi - Yeah...if we faced off we might end up killing each other. At the very least we'd hurt each other really badly._

Yeah it implies equality and given Itachi is in league with Konoha, killing Jiraiya one of their strongest was not a good idea, there's a possibility he lied but I stick with Jiraiya (SM) =< Itachi.

Kabuto is not tagging Itachi period, he only tagged Itachi twice using Sage Mode, one which was because Itachi chose to protect Sasuke. You're telling me *base Kabuto* is tagging Itachi. There's like zero chance. Itachi is obviously higher than 5 though, there are people like Lee at 5 who he's faster than (without gates), he has enough speed to evade all her strikes and knows not to parry a hit given knowledge. Btw he's also much, much faster than 0.5 over Asuma. He'll know of the Sannin and Tsunade's healing prowess because of his position in Konoha in the past / Itachi is an insightful mofo.


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## ueharakk (Oct 30, 2013)

yeah, hidan having the advantage over Asuma and shikamaru simultaneously attacking him kind of refutes databook scores of speed.


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## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> yeah, hidan having the advantage over Asuma and shikamaru simultaneously attacking him kind of refutes databook scores of speed.


Even if you ignore DB, Itachi is still much faster and reflextive via feats and has 3 tomoe Sharingan on top to boot.


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## Ghost (Oct 30, 2013)

Itachi mid diff. Genjutsu GG if Tsunade looks into Itachi's eyes. Kunai through skull GG if Tsunade tries to fight Itachi with only looking at his feet.


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## Sans (Oct 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> Tsunade stomps, no difficult.
> even his genjutsu is useless, Tsunade can even heal the effect of the Tsukuyomi.
> 
> or she can summon Katsuyu, who also can stomp itachi.



There's really not much point in arguing with you, but surely you can see there is a difference between healing someone else while unaffected and healing yourself while catatonic?


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## Veracity (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Viz translation (aka. the best):
> 
> _Kisame - He's in a different league, even if you might be able to take him on. I'm not so sure about me.
> Itachi - Yeah...if we faced off we might end up killing each other. At the very least we'd hurt each other really badly._
> ...



Okay that's acceptable for Itachi, but the fact that Kisame was viewed so under Jirayia that it contradicts the feats Kisame has. If anything he would win or stalemate Jirayia, and Itachi is the one thats on another level then Jirayia due to feats. 

Kabuto is not tagging Itachi due to FEATS, which I'm trying to use in this thread. Same way Shizune isn't tagging Tsunade at all due to FEATS, and somehow she has a 4 in speed.

& why do you think Itachi is higher then a 5(somehow)? People like Jirayia and Oro aren't even 5's and they aren't even a good amount slower then him, they can keep up with him abosolutely no problem. Same way Hidan(like brought up by other debaters) was tangeoing with Kakashi and Asuma though by DB, he is far slower then them, same with Tsunade. By DB, a rusty Tsunade is basically a Hidan to a Kakashi, she still can hold her own, however, this isn't a rusty Tsunade. This is a Tsunade who arguably raised her speed to a 4.5(considering Shizune is a 4) compared to Itachis 5. So yeah like I said, no blitzing will occur in this battle at all. Period.

IMHO, I think databooks compare stats to people in there power range. Like Tsunade would be a 3.5(still ridiculous) in speed compared to the other Sannin. Rock Lee was a 5 in speed compared to all the Genin. Gai is a 5 in speed compared to all the Jounin. Itachi is a 5 in speed compared to all the Akatsuki members. Idk just a thought.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 30, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> IMHO, I think databooks compare stats to people in there power range. Like Tsunade would be a 3.5(still ridiculous) in speed compared to the other Sannin. Rock Lee was a 5 in speed compared to all the Genin. Gai is a 5 in speed compared to all the Jounin. Itachi is a 5 in speed compared to all the Akatsuki members. Idk just a thought.



I think taijutsu skill plays an important role too. For example, Shizune may be swifter than Tsunade in moving around, but her lack of skill in CQC would leave her relatively defenceless against someone as skilled as her. Hiruzen is slower than Orochimaru, but possesses far superior taijutsu that allowed him to disarm Orochimaru and leave him defenceless. Asuma is faster than Ino, but her increase in taijutsu ability allowed her to spar with him in CQC without taking hits. 

Even with a lack of speed, taijutsu ability can compensate.​


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 30, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> It's also canon that Jirayia> Itachi and Kisame yet nobody agrees to this. Because it's illogical, just like the DB. Kishi doesn't think about every little detail, he tends to contradict himself my mistake.



Character statements ≠ Kishi's own statements. Character statements are not canon, they are a characters opinion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 30, 2013)

I don't think so. She'll find herself in an illusion and get his head cut off.

That is the most likely outcome.

Her chances are slim imo, mostly because there isn't a realistic way for her to touch Itachi except for taking a hit on purpose(which she tanks) and then return the blow, which would probably kill Itachi.

To me, for Itachi to lose this, he should slip and make a mistake. Given how intelligent he is I think he'll play it safer than that and won't fall for a suicide dive from Tsunade.

He either outlasts her or decapitates her via genjutsu paralysis.


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## Rocky (Oct 30, 2013)

How does Itachi outlast Tsunade.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> How does Itachi outlast Tsunade.



The same way Kabuto & Oro did.

Tsunade will have to waste more effort to land blows on Itachi than Itachi needs to land on her.
And she will probably need to keep healing herself or outright activate genesis rebirth to shrug off wounds.

Eventually, she will end up exerting herfself more than Itachi will since Itachi won't be using taxing jutsu here and his speed and 3 tomoe precog will be more than enough to allow him to keep evading Tsunade for longer periods of time.


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## Brooks (Oct 30, 2013)

Katsuya will be Tsunade's down-fall if she is to summon it do the fact Itachi can simply control it with Genjutsu Via Sharingan and use it against Tsunade.



Just wanted to point that out


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 30, 2013)

Brooks said:


> Katsuya will be Tsunade's down-fall if she is to summon it do the fact Itachi can simply control it with Genjutsu Via Sharingan and use it against Tsunade.
> 
> 
> 
> Just wanted to point that out



Oh Katsuyu isn't restricted ? 


Katsuyu solos


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## Brooks (Oct 30, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh Katsuyu isn't restricted ?
> 
> 
> Katsuyu solos



The King solos with her own summoning


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## Bringer (Oct 30, 2013)

I'd like to question how well genjutsu would even work on Katsuyu.

1. Do slugs even have eyes

2. Slugs don't have brains

3. How would genjutsu effect Katsuyu's hive mind.

4. Katsuyu is connected to Tsunade via seal, they could just break each other out of genjutsu.


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## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Okay that's acceptable for Itachi, but the fact that Kisame was viewed so under Jirayia that it contradicts the feats Kisame has. If anything he would win or stalemate Jirayia, and Itachi is the one thats on another level then Jirayia due to feats.
> 
> Kabuto is not tagging Itachi due to FEATS, which I'm trying to use in this thread. Same way Shizune isn't tagging Tsunade at all due to FEATS, and somehow she has a 4 in speed.
> 
> ...


Jiraiya (SM) is stronger than Kisame, that is irrefutable I agree. I personally think Itachi is relatively on par with Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Edo Tensei would be stronger though.

Tsunade is now faster than Shizune and yes I'd agree Tsunade would easily beat her. I never refuted that.

They can keep up but that are still at a major disadvantage, Itachi is still much more nimble than both of them (not SM Jiraiya of course). Not sure about that DB idea, I think it's more how Kishimoto wants readers to see the characters (Itachi/Jiraiya/Kakashi are all-rounders, Tsunade is a stamina freak tank).

I never said he'd blitz, I agree with you on that.


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## Veracity (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Jiraiya (SM) is stronger than Kisame, that is irrefutable I agree. I personally think Itachi is relatively on par with Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Edo Tensei would be stronger though.
> 
> Tsunade is now faster than Shizune and yes I'd agree Tsunade would easily beat her. I never refuted that.
> 
> ...



SM Jirayia is indeed stronger then Kisame but not by much, and judging by Kisames fighting mindset, I honestly think Kisame wouldn't allow him to enter SM. 2 Pain paths <Kisame. But based on the way Kishi interpretated Kisames words, it seems like Jirayia>>>Kisame, possibly being a tier higher. 

I think if Itachi fought to kill and had knowledge on Jirayia's SM and Doton Justu, he could end him in minutes with well placed shiruiken, Genjustu, and Amaterasu. Even alive Itachi, just IMO opinion however. 

And I agree partially on the DB idea, but again I just don't see part 1 Genin Lee being faster then Hidan, Tsunade, and Hiruzen. Just makes abosolutely no sense . I also don't see Pain arc eke being faster then Kisame(tangoed with Bee) and Kakuzu(tangoed with Kakashi). Asuma was having trouble fighting off his students when they are a WHOLE 2 points slower then him in speed. Shikamaru also managed to point blank dodge Kakuzu(4 in speed) when he only has a 2.5 in speed. DB is pretty inconsistent man, and I just don't agree with it. 

Well, lol then what was the point of this hahah. My only point was that Tsunade won't be getting blitzed, especially  not at 25 damn meters. Itachi is faster, but not enough so that he will be dancing around her.


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