# Edo Tensei power level



## Kai (Dec 9, 2013)

Hate to burst the bubble on the recent ET scaling, but...



Either Madara is an outlier or Onoki doesn't know what he's talking about


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Rikudou Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama are the only outliers. Hence Kishimoto felt the need to comment on their Edo Tensei power levels relative to their original power levels. 

All other Edo Tensei ranging from Nagato to Tourne were all brought back at full power. This includes the likes of Itachi, Muu and other Kage. 

Nagato is an odd one, being brought back in a chakra deprived state. Though I stand by my logic: unless Kishimoto feels the need to say that an Edo Tensei lacks the power the individual is actually capable of, then the Edo Tensei has its full power.


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## Veracity (Dec 9, 2013)

It really is bullshit for people to seriously lower ones abilities while in Edo, based on Madara( the final villain)

It seriously should not even be considered until Kishi directly indicates such.


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## Turrin (Dec 9, 2013)

It's not like edo tensei weakens every jutsu used


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## Rocky (Dec 9, 2013)

Incredibly, fantastic find. I'm glad you found this. Take a rep.


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## Hand Banana (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Rikudou Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama are the only outliers. Hence Kishimoto felt the need to comment on their Edo Tensei power levels relative to their original power levels.
> 
> All other Edo Tensei ranging from Nagato to Tourne were all brought back at full power. This includes the likes of Itachi, Muu and other Kage.
> 
> Nagato is an odd one, being brought back in a chakra deprived state. Though I stand by my logic: unless Kishimoto feels the need to say that an Edo Tensei lacks the power the individual is actually capable of, then the Edo Tensei has its full power.



Nagato was brought back in that state because most likely the last of his dna remained in that memory. But he was actually recoverying to a state of completeness before being taken down.


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## Alex Payne (Dec 9, 2013)

Madara is a freak. In every sense of that word. He was an amalgamation of Prime Body+all attained knowledge+additional Mokuton breast-implants. He also was significantly more powerful than Kabuto.

Possible explanation is that ET-user must be equal or greater in power/chakra to/than his summons to summon them in full power. Yet I don't think Tobirama was that much above Orochimaru to not get summoned at full strength. While Hashirama who is that much above Orochimaru was summoned apparently "close to his original power".

Only Madara was gimped in my opinion. Too many things point that way. It is still debatable though and could explain shit like Sasori+Deidara being unable to deal with angry Sai.


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2013)

The edo were as powerful as when they were alive

Madara was stronger than he was alive because his ET is special as stated by Kabuto

The Hokages were weaker than how they were as stated by Tobirama. It is a foolish thing to apply
what Tobirama said about Kabuto's ET when Tobirama was talking about Oro's.


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## ueharakk (Dec 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> Hate to burst the bubble on the recent ET scaling, but...
> 
> 
> 
> Either Madara is an outlier or Onoki doesn't know what he's talking about



I've already shown strat that page.

You've probably can imagine what they are going to say in response to that though.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I've already shown strat that page.
> 
> You've probably can imagine what they are going to say in response to that though.



New evidence overrides the previous ones ?


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## Rocky (Dec 9, 2013)

That would only apply is we had solid evidence that living Muu was stronger than Edo Muu. Right now, we're only seeing evidence for Madara.

Think about it. Don't you find it odd that _none_ of Kabuto's Edo Tensei other than Madara noted that they were weaker than they had been in life?


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## ueharakk (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> New evidence overrides the previous ones ?



 if and only if they are an almost necessary contradiction


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That would only apply is we had solid evidence that living Muu was stronger than Edo Muu. Right now, we're only seeing evidence for Madara.
> 
> Think about it. Don't you find it odd that _none_ of Kabuto's Edo Tensei other than Madara noted that they were weaker than they had been in life?



I don't think madara stated that he is weaker or anything, did he?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That would only apply is we had solid evidence that living Muu was stronger than Edo Muu. Right now, we're only seeing evidence for Madara.
> 
> Think about it. Don't you find it odd that _none_ of Kabuto's Edo Tensei other than Madara noted that they were weaker than they had been in life?



We didn't know Madara was weaker till he was ressurected though.

And seemed to me that it was something expected. Madara was happy that he was revived, and Hashirama noted the difference.

Didn't seem like a Madara exclusive to me, Kishimoto generally explains stuff like that in detail if he deems necessary.

Guys like Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu were also dealt like they were some 3rd grade fodder.
It always seemed a bit weird but not anymore.



ueharakk said:


> if and only if they are an almost necessary contradiction



Well the contradiction lies within Madara.
He was weaker than his living self as an Edo. Something we learned recently.


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## ueharakk (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well the contradiction lies within Madara.
> He was weaker than his living self as an Edo. Something we learned recently.



All that means is that Madara being the most powerful edo tensei is an exception to that rule, thus there would be no contradiction.

In addition to that, if it really is a retcon, then it would only apply to the edos who are around during the retcon.  It wouldn't apply to edos who get established feats while kishi was operating under the mentality that they were as strong as their living selves since if those edos were revived now, kishi would gimp them below their earlier performances due to the retcon.


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2013)

From what I understood
1- he was not fighting Hashi seriously, and that's why he said he can fight for real
2- That's he can feel the pain of the fight and getting hurt and that's what make him excited
or some nonsense from that, and perhaps he meant he needs that body if he want to be the
host.

but I don't see what is there that shows he was weaker (especially that we know he was actually stronger)! But, again, that's just me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> All that means is that Madara being the most powerful edo tensei is an exception to that rule, thus there would be no contradiction.
> 
> In addition to that, if it really is a retcon, then it would only apply to the edos who are around during the retcon.



Madara, despite being modified to be stronger, contrary to others, was still inferior. Doesn't that work for the benefit of other Edo's ? 

Why would it apply to Edo's during the retcon ?  Retcon effects the past as well.

When you think about it, the overall poor performances of Edo's can be explained with this and makes perfect sense.

edit : 



Elia said:


> But, again, that's just me.



Yes, its just you. Lets leave it at that


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## ueharakk (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Madara, despite being modified to be stronger, contrary to others, was still inferior. Doesn't that work for the benefit of other Edo's ?


Not if Madara's enhancements don't affect what his feats or abilities that make characters comment on how he's more powerful now.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why would it apply to Edo's during the retcon ?  Retcon effects the past as well.
> 
> When you think about it, the overall poor performances of Edo's can be explained with this and makes perfect sense.


Retcons change the definitions or facts that were established in the past, however, if before the retcon, Kishi was operating under the logic that the edos were exactly as powerful as they were while alive, then the retcon would not apply to the feats those edos performed back then since if they were brought back now, Kishi would gimp since he's now operating under different the logic that edos are significantly weaker than their living counterparts.


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## Turrin (Dec 9, 2013)

I don't see how the Mu thing proves anything even if Mu was at 90% his former might as and edo there is no reason why he couldn't produce a jinto blast that was as strong as it was in life


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how the Mu thing proves anything even if Mu was at 90% his former might as and edo there is no reason why he couldn't produce a jinto blast that was as strong as it was in life



Why should we assume anyone's Edo Tensei was weakened unless it was stated in the manga?


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## Turrin (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why should we assume anyone's Edo Tensei was weakened unless it was stated in the manga?



It was stated in the manga there is no reason for kishi to state it in the case of every edo


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It was stated in the manga there is no reason for kishi to state it in the case of every edo



There is no reason to state it is the case for all Edo Tensei if it _isn't_ the case for all Edo Tensei. Now, if an Edo Tensei _wasn't_ revived at full power, then it would be worth stating.


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## Turrin (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There is no reason to state it is the case for all Edo Tensei if it _isn't_ the case for all Edo Tensei. Now, if an Edo Tensei _wasn't_ revived at full power, then it would be worth stating.



No it is the case for all Edos. I have already explained to you why it doesn't have to do with the individual but the jutsu


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## Dominus (Dec 9, 2013)

@Elia

Hashirama said in the latest chapter that Madara wasn't at full power.


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## Kai (Dec 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how the Mu thing proves anything even if Mu was at 90% his former might as and edo there is no reason why he couldn't produce a jinto blast that was as strong as it was in life


There's no point in speculating he was at 90% then, if it makes no difference.

Might as well go with the full 100.


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> @Elia
> 
> Hashirama said in the latest chapter that Madara wasn't at full power.




I would rather take what Madara & Kabuto said over what Hashi who knew nothing about what happened! 

1- Madara himself stated that he used his full power
required more than a dozen Suitons in order to be extinguished.

2- Kabuto stated that madara is actually stronger than what he was
required more than a dozen Suitons in order to be extinguished.
required more than a dozen Suitons in order to be extinguished.

as I said earlier, madara did not say he became stronger or anything, and Hashi does not know
what happened after his fight with madara and he does not know about Kabuto or what he did
either. So, his statement is not creditable in my opinion, especially that madara was not even fighting him seriously.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Not if Madara's enhancements don't affect what his feats or abilities that make characters comment on how he's more powerful now.


He has senju implants and Rinnegan. He was supposed to be stronger both physically and jutsu wise.

And both Madara & Hashirama commented on how stronger he became after he was ressurected.



> Retcons change the definitions or facts that were established in the past, however, if before the retcon, Kishi was operating under the logic that the edos were exactly as powerful as they were while alive, then the retcon would not apply to the feats those edos performed back then since if they were brought back now, Kishi would gimp since he's now operating under different the logic that edos are significantly weaker than their living counterparts.


Simply going by Deidara, Kakuzu & Sasori's performances, I don't think Kishimoto expected anyone to believe the Edo's were supposed to be as strong as the originals.

The concept of Edo's being weaker was always present.


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## Dominus (Dec 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> I would rather take what Madara & Kabuto said over what Hashi who knew nothing about what happened!
> 
> 1- Madara himself stated that he used his full power
> Look at the page again
> ...



As an Edo Tensei, Madara is stronger than when he was alive because of Mokuton and Rinnegan, but young *and* alive Madara with Mokuton and Rinnegan is stronger than the one that fought the Gokage.


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> As an Edo Tensei, Madara is stronger than when he was alive because of Mokuton and Rinnegan, but young *and* alive Madara with Mokuton and Rinnegan is stronger than the one that fought the Gokage.



Well, I will believe that when I see the differences in the manga because what it seems to me
for now is he lost his immortality and the unlimited chakra. 

IF and only IF madara became stronger then that has nothing to do with the ET limiting him, but
rather because he actually received MORE power, thanks to Hashirama who because of him 
madara now can use SM. 

So,
Madara with Wood, Rinngan, EMS, and SM > Madara with Wood, Rinngan and EMS

but I wonder if the SM is going to be better than the immortality and the unlimited chakra. 
The only way to find  out is to see what will happen next I suppose.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> No it is the case for all Edos. I have already explained to you why it doesn't have to do with the individual but the jutsu



If it was the case for all Edos, then Kishimoto would've made an effort to generalise the effect. In a similar way he made Madara comment on Edo Tensei's unlimited chakra trait; the way it was expressed indicated it was generalised to all Edo Tensei.

Now with Tobirama and Hashirama, the former said that _this time_ they've been brought back at virtually full power. The last time it was just Hashirama and Tobirama, as such the only logical inference is that Hashirama and Tobirama weren't brought back at full power in both cases.

Madara said earlier he'd fight with his full power as Uchiha Madara - Perfect Susanoo. It was strange a jutsu from a lesser power relative to the Rinnegan was Madara's best. Then we get Madara saying he can finally fight at full power, and Hashirama commenting on Madara's strength. 
That was entirely tailored to Madara, not any other Edo Tensei.

Kishimoto has shown that when he wants us to generalise a piece of info to all Edo Tensei, he presents it in such a way. However when certain information is only applicable to certain characters {Rikudou Madara (not EMS), Hashirama and Tobirama}, he also expresses it in such a way.

The page Kai posted gave us reason to infer that Muu, alongside all other Edo Tensei such as Nagato, Itachi, Hiruzen, Minato etc were all brought back at full power. Dark Kurama would be pretty useless if he wasn't brought back at full strength, however Kishimoto hasn't indicated that he, or his Jinchuriki were weakened in any manner.

tl;dr: it is very easy to differentiate when Kishimoto wants us to think something applies to some, or all Edos. The weakened power levels are factors that only refer to the Senju bros and the Rikudou Madara.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2013)

Oonoki hadn't seen Muu in how many years?


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## Dominus (Dec 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> Well, I will believe that when I see the differences in the manga because what it seems to me
> for now is he lost his immortality and the unlimited chakra.
> 
> IF and only IF madara became stronger then that has nothing to do with the ET limiting him, but
> ...



He destroyed Hashirama's wooden gates before getting his SM while he couldn't do it while he was an Edo Tensei and Hashirama said that he wasn't at full power before, what else do you need?


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## Kai (Dec 9, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Oonoki hadn't seen Muu in how many years?


Muu has been alive for how long since Onoki last saw him?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 9, 2013)

All of the Edo Tensei Kabuto brought back were as strong as they were in life or stronger.

This includes Madara.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Maybe Kabuto was strong enough to bring EMS Madara back at full power, hence PS being his best jutsu. Yet Kabuto wasn't powerful enough to bring back Rikudou Madara at full power, hence he was easily able to shake of Hashirama's seals with, what appeared to be, a Shinra Tensei, something he couldn't do before.

Up to Minato/Nagato level, it seems they can be brought back at full power. A level which far exceeds a lot of other levels such as Itachi and Muu level. 

However at Tobirama level, it seems it becomes tricky to bring people back at full power. As reflected by how base living Madara appears to be superior to Edo base Madara. That obviously has implications for shinobi such as Hashirama and Madara with Rikudou powers.


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## Jagger (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Guys like Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu were also dealt like they were some 3rd grade fodder.
> It always seemed a bit weird but not anymore.


In all fairness, it's because they were revived in the state they were just before dying.

Sasori is the only odd case as he was revived in his human form instead of the puppet one. But, with Kakuzu, all his hearts were destroyed by Hidan, Kakashi or Naruto, thus, why he was much more weaker than the last time we saw him.

Sasori was pretty heavily handicapped. His abilities remained the same of puppeter remained the same, but he was stripped from his weapons because the zombies are not revived along them.

Besides, it's not like they were outnumbered or the shinobi that defeated them once became stronger from the last time they fought.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> Muu has been alive for how long since Onoki last saw him?



Muu died before Tobirama did. In that context, there's at least a 50 year gap.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 9, 2013)

The most plausible explanation, it seems to me, is that the strength of Kabuto's Edo Tensei was proportionate to how strong their spirit was as an Edo. Madara is a battle monger, whose strength is derived from his will to battle, and thus he couldn't draw out his full power when he couldn't _feel_ that power coursing through him. But Madara doesn't seem that much stronger, really, other than the ease which he uses Rikudo powers (which makes sense since he never had much of an opportunity to practice the feel of them during life) and the fact he is fighting more efficiently. And I suspect the efficiency is merely because he is an intuitive fighter he relies on adrenaline to fuel his combat instincts, something he wouldn't feel as an Edo. Madara's vast battle experience actually works against him as an Edo.

Plus, some of his increased strength and certainly his ability to fight at 100% while blind is almost undoubtedly from the fact he is now wielding Hasharima's sage powers.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Jagger said:


> In all fairness, it's because they were revived in the state they were just before dying.
> 
> Sasori is the only odd case as he was revived in his human form instead of the puppet one. But, with Kakuzu, all his hearts were destroyed by Hidan, Kakashi or Naruto, thus, why he was much more weaker than the last time we saw him.
> 
> ...



Doesn't Sasori actually support the argument ? He was summoned without his weapons. He wasn't even close to 50% power.

Plus Deidara and Sasori were blitzed by Sai, and treated like fodder.

They were outnumbered yes, but who were they up against ? 

Kankuro, Omoi, Sai and some fodder.

Kakuzu was off paneled, he was getting his shit torn apart by the Chuunin bros(forgot their names) whom he dealt with relative ease when he was alive.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Maybe Kabuto was strong enough to bring EMS Madara back at full power, hence PS being his best jutsu. Yet Kabuto wasn't powerful enough to bring back Rikudou Madara at full power, hence he was easily able to shake of Hashirama's seals with, what appeared to be, a Shinra Tensei, something he couldn't do before.
> 
> Up to Minato/Nagato level, it seems they can be brought back at full power. A level which far exceeds a lot of other levels such as Itachi and Muu level.
> 
> However at Tobirama level, it seems it becomes tricky to bring people back at full power. As reflected by how base living Madara appears to be superior to Edo base Madara. That obviously has implications for shinobi such as Hashirama and Madara with Rikudou powers.


So much bullshit in this post. 
You'd think Munboy is Kishimoto. 

Its not your manga bro, stop pulling shit from your ass


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So much bullshit in this post.
> You'd think Munboy is Kishimoto.
> 
> Its not your manga bro, stop pulling shit from your ass



It has a stronger basis than assuming _all_ Edo Tensei were weakened, however.


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## ueharakk (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He has senju implants and Rinnegan. He was supposed to be stronger both physically and jutsu wise.
> 
> And both Madara & Hashirama commented on how stronger he became after he was resurrected.


I'm not arguing that Madara didn't get much stronger after getting resurrected.

If he was suppose to be stronger both physically and jutsu-wise, why did hashirama state that madara regained his past powers when Hashirama only knows about EMS Madara's past powers?  It makes even less sense when you consider hashirama made that statement after madara gained his SM.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Simply going by Deidara, Kakuzu & Sasori's performances, I don't think Kishimoto expected anyone to believe the Edo's were supposed to be as strong as the originals.
> 
> The concept of Edo's being weaker was always present.


None of their actual abilities were stated or implied to be greater than what they were capable of in real life.  Sasori was a puppet master without any puppets, Kakuzu didn't have any hearts, Deidara was simply trolled and was never implied to be weaker when he fought oonoki.

If you go by the performances of Kimimaro, Chiyo, Haku and Muu, they were brought back at least as powerful, most likely much more than they were while living.  The concept of Edos being significantly weaker was never present even after Tobirama stated that they were brought back at 'close' to full power.  

Madara is either the sole exception to this rule due to how powerful he is, or the retcon only happened after the edo kages were revived and does not apply to the prior edos.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It has a stronger basis than assuming _all_ Edo Tensei were weakened, however.



Your post had too many details, details you wouldn't know unless you were Kishi. So either you are Kishi or your pulling major shit from your ass.

/obligatory "fanfic section is that way bro" picture.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Your post had too many details, details you wouldn't know unless you were Kishi. So either you are Kishi or your pulling major shit from your ass.
> 
> /obligatory "fanfic section is that way bro" picture.



What details confused you? I merely extrapolated on info we already have.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I'm not arguing that Madara didn't get much stronger after getting resurrected.
> 
> If he was suppose to be stronger both physically and jutsu-wise, why did hashirama state that madara regained his past powers when Hashirama only knows about EMS Madara's past powers?  It makes even less sense when you consider hashirama made that statement after madara gained his SM.


Well look at that.
Madara looks even stronger when you consider it  

It is weird that Hashirama made that remark after Madara used SM, but then I think it had more to do with Madara using his katon jutsu and starting to make it look like he actually wanted to fight this time around.
He seemed like he was in a hiatus stage before.




> None of their actual abilities were stated or implied to be greater than what they were capable of in real life.  Sasori was a puppet master without any puppets, Kakuzu didn't have any hearts, Deidara was simply trolled and was never implied to be weaker when he fought oonoki.


Like I said, none of them were compared to their living selves individually because it wasn't contextually relevant.

The issue only became contextually relevant when Madara was being ressurected for real. 

But way back, like 3 years ago when the war first started, I was so sure that EDO's were weaker than their original selves, that I was expecting every single edo to get majorly trolled.

The only exceptions that made me change my mind were Itachi, Nagato and Madara.

Despite looking too damn weak @ first, Nagato kind of became his prime self after absorbing B's chakra.

TBH, Itachi's past performance was so terrible that I was convinced Itachi was showing his true power even before he started using his MS. But Itachi is a unique case. The Itachi was saw fight Sasuke was someone who was in his death bed and who was majorly holding back. 

As for Madara, Kabuto said he was restored beyond his prime, but then no one knew how powerful the guy was for real, and it didn't became relevant since now because after dealing with Gokage, Madara was mostly staying low and getting the offpanel  treatment.



> If you go by the performances of Kimimaro, Chiyo, Haku and Muu, they were brought back at least as powerful, most likely much more than they were while living.  The concept of Edos being significantly weaker was never present even after Tobirama stated that they were brought back at 'close' to full power.



I don't see whats special about those 3.
But before that I remember Kabuto amping up the strength of ET by using Oro's chakra or something. He restored their strength but we don't know to what extend.
I might be wrong though, Its been almost 3 years.




> Madara is either the sole exception to this rule due to how powerful he is, or the retcon only happened after the edo kages were revived and does not apply to the prior edos.



Well this goes with the assumption that Kishimoto decided that Edos were weaker than their living counterparts just now.

I also don't think Madara is the only exception. But since Madara is the big boss here, Kishimoto might have thought it would be contextually more appropraite to stroke his dick before he starts hauling some ass.
Because if we knew that Madara was significantly weaker this whole time, his fights would be more anticlimatic then they actually were.


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## Turrin (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If it was the case for all Edos, then Kishimoto would've made an effort to generalise the effect. In a similar way he made Madara comment on Edo Tensei's unlimited chakra trait; the way it was expressed indicated it was generalised to all Edo Tensei.
> .


Kishimoto did make an effort he told use twice now that the Edos are weakened; once through Tobirama and now through Madara. Mizukage also potentially implies it w/ this statement:


_The 2nd mizu: if yous cant beat me on your own (merits) that means yous are below me who is already dead, does it not! Slowcoach!! 
The 2nd mizu: how can yous beat an enemy boss like that eh!!_



> Now with Tobirama and Hashirama, the former said that this time they've been brought back at virtually full power. The last time it was just Hashirama and Tobirama, as such the only logical inference is that Hashirama and Tobirama weren't brought back at full power in both cases.


Tobirama cites the proficiency of the Jutsu increasing, to the point where now they can be brought back at near full power. The focus has always been on the Jutsu's efficiency not the individual.

Plus as I have explained to you it makes no sense on an individual basis. Becuase why would Orochimaru be able to bring back Tobirama & Hashirama at near full power. Hashirama is way stronger than Tobirama, so it should ether be

A) Orochimaru can bring back Hashirama at near full power and thus can bring back Tobirama at full power

or 

B) Orochimaru can bring back Tobirama at near full power and thus can't bring Hashirama back at near full power

The only way it makes sense that both are brought back at near full power is if the individual doesn't matter, but rather the Jutsu does, I.E. w/ Oro/Buto level efficiency they can bring back Tensei in general at near full power (no more no less), which is exactly what Tobirama cited in the first place. 



Kai said:


> There's no point in speculating he was at 90% then, if it makes no difference.
> 
> Might as well go with the full 100.


10% could still make a difference. Basically it's just Kishi's way of making it a bit unclear as to how the Tensei would have performed at full power. This is something he loves to do w/ all battles, by characters certain advantages or disadvantages, leaving it ultimately debatable in the end who was stronger.

Now obviously it's not a huge difference and your not going to see me saying that Edo Itachi was only at 50% strength like I see some people trolling, but I could see Edo's having somewhat weakened physicality overall (Strength, Stamina, & Speed), which would matter in some instances and make sense since these Edos have had their new bodies crafted out of Paper and Ash, which despite Oro's and Kabuto's efforts probably isn't going to be as good as the original's body in terms of physicality.


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## Octavian (Dec 9, 2013)

now if only kishi put as much thought into maintaining consistency as you guys


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## ueharakk (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well look at that.
> Madara looks even stronger when you consider it
> 
> It is weird that Hashirama made that remark after Madara used SM, but then I think it had more to do with Madara using his katon jutsu and starting to make it look like he actually wanted to fight this time around.
> He seemed like he was in a hiatus stage before.


so what exactly are you arguing here?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, none of them were compared to their living selves individually because it wasn't contextually relevant.
> 
> The issue only became contextually relevant when Madara was being ressurected for real.


Um, oonoki made that comparison with muu.  From there kishi doesn't have to have them say it over and over because it's assumed that the same logic applies to all the other edo tenseis unless stated otherwise.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But way back, like 3 years ago when the war first started, I was so sure that EDO's were weaker than their original selves, that I was expecting every single edo to get majorly trolled.


The only reason the edos who were defeated before were trolled is because they were defeated before thus unless they are more powerful, kishi isn't going to repeat a fight to defeat an already defeated enemy.  Also there's the whole new surpassing the old concept that's there in the plot as well.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The only exceptions that made me change my mind were Itachi, Nagato and Madara.
> 
> Despite looking too damn weak @ first, Nagato kind of became his prime self after absorbing B's chakra.
> 
> ...


the reason those guys didn't get trolled is either because they are much stronger as edos than they were as humans, crucial to the plot, or have never been defeated before.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well this goes with the assumption that Kishimoto decided that Edos were weaker than their living counterparts just now.


oonoki's statement about muu.  The fact that if they were weaker, we should have gotten some kind of statement or manga evidence with the chapter that was solely devoted to explaining edo tensei or throughout the war.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I also don't think Madara is the only exception. But since Madara is the big boss here, Kishimoto might have thought it would be contextually more appropraite to stroke his dick before he starts hauling some ass.*
> Because if we knew that Madara was significantly weaker this whole time, his fights would be more anticlimatic then they actually were.*


i can agree with the bolded that madara being significantly weaker would make his fights anticlimactic, but at the same time, there's no reason to have all the other edo tenseis significantly weaker since it takes away all meaning of their defeats in the war.  So the best thing would be to have madara be the sole exception.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 9, 2013)

Nope. Kai, for once you are wrong. Prime Itachi lives!!!

But in all seriousness, Kai is right as usual. Madara is more than likely a case-specific situation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Nope. Kai, for once you are wrong. Prime Itachi lives!!!
> 
> But in all seriousness, Kai is right as usual. Madara is more than likely a case-specific situation.



You'r probably wrong though.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You'r probably wrong though.



That doesn't mean I _am_ wrong.

Well, hopefully we'll get some clarification about this issue, but as of now its a bit of a stretch to say it applies to all Edos.

I guess we just have to wait until Kishi proves otherwise.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 9, 2013)

Which translation is correct?

this


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## ARGUS (Dec 9, 2013)

I think Kabuto ET brings ppl at their full power... Jus maybe not Nagato since he cudnt even move
Orochimarus ET brings ppl slightly weaker than what they were when alive as proven by tobirama


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> Hate to burst the bubble on the recent ET scaling, but...
> 
> 
> 
> Either Madara is an outlier or Onoki doesn't know what he's talking about



The techniques are the same.

e.g. Madara's Perfect Susano'o and Mū's Jinton.

Their skill level is not the same.

e.g. Sasori and Deidara getting blitzed by Sai and Madara's speed boost.

I thought this was obvious.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The techniques are the same.
> 
> e.g. Madara's Perfect Susano'o.
> 
> ...



Unless Kishimoto stated a character's ET isn't as good as their peak {Rikudou Madara; Hashirama; and Tobirama}, you're not bursting his bubble.

Maybe a lot of us _still_ can't get over what happened with Sasori or Deidara.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Unless Kishimoto stated a character's ET isn't as good as their peak {Rikudou Madara; Hashirama; and Tobirama}, you're not bursting his bubble.



We've _seen_ nearly every one of Kabuto's Edos significantly underperform from their living selves' hype or feats. The arguable exceptions are those whose true peak was never witnessed.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Maybe a lot of us _still_ can't get over what happened with Sasori or Deidara.



It's not just them. Not by a long shot. Kakuzu, Hanzō, the 3rd Raikage, and Zabuza all come to mind as being oddly fodderized or outmaneuvered relative to their hype or prior feats.

Like I said, their jutsu are the same, but their skill/speed are not.​


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 9, 2013)

It was confirmed Edo Tensei were in some way "off" or "weaker" both by Tobirama and by Madara.

Whether its their strength or their battle skill increasing is inconsequential imo since the point trying to be gotten across is they're in some way _stronger_.

Now what I find interesting is Tobirama said "increasing the accuracy and efficacy of this jutsu" is what allowed them to come back at near full power.

change direction

This gives the notion that _skilled_ edo tensei users with honed accuracy and greater efficacy are able to bring back the targets they have revived with better results. If you are _unskilled_ with the technique, then the targets are brought back weaker.

Its up in the air as to whether Kabuto is as _skilled_ as Orochimaru when it comes to the Edo Tensei jutsu. I don't think it has to do with power.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2013)

And FYI, Kai, the fact that all Edo Tensei have their same level of abilities/powers from life is stated pretty consistently. That's not the same thing as having the same amount of skill in applying those powers relative to what they could do in the prime of their life. 

But yeah. Sai's not blitzing living Deidara or Sasori and Mifune's not paneling the dude that maimed three Sannin and young Nagato. That just means that Itachi, Nagato, Mū, Madara i.e. Kabuto's most skilled Edos that performed well were just that much more skilled.​


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## Kai (Dec 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And FYI, Kai, the fact that all Edo Tensei have their same level of abilities/powers from life is stated pretty consistently. That's not the same thing as having the same amount of skill in applying those powers relative to what they could do in the prime of their life.
> 
> But yeah. Sai's not blitzing living Deidara or Sasori and Mifune's not paneling the dude that maimed three Sannin and young Nagato. That just means that Itachi, Nagato, Mū, Madara i.e. Kabuto's most skilled Edos that performed well were just that much more skilled.​


The simple answer to why they don't have the same amount of skill in applying their power is because the skill is dependent on Kabuto in wielding their power. That's just an answer at face value.

For example, even despite still being Edo, Edo Itachi who is in control of his own actions has more skill and appropriate use of his power than when he was under Kabuto's control just moments earlier.


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## Veracity (Dec 9, 2013)

I remember Haku displaying more impressive feats as an Edo.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> The simple answer to why they don't have the same amount of skill in applying their power is because the skill is dependent on Kabuto in wielding their power. That's just an answer at face value.
> 
> For example, even despite still being Edo, Edo Itachi who is in control of his own actions has more skill and appropriate use of his power than when he was under Kabuto's control just moments earlier.



Kabuto wasn't directly controlling any of the people I named?


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> He destroyed Hashirama's wooden gates before getting his SM while he couldn't do it while he was an Edo Tensei and Hashirama said that he wasn't at full power before, what else do you need?



Madara did not break them because he was regenerating from the COFRS that just hit him. 
not because he could not! 

So, you think Hashi saying that is a better proof than Madara saying he was at his full power?
Does Hashi know about madara more than himself and Kabuto who modified his body? 

As for the last question, I told you I'll wait and see what will madara do more than what he did!
and I told if he is stronger now it is because he has SM now while he did not have that as an edo!


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## Jagger (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Doesn't Sasori actually support the argument ? He was summoned without his weapons. He wasn't even close to 50% power.


That doesn't mean every single Edo zombie was brought back weaker than they were in their life. Itachi was pretty much the same character, in fact, he could fight much longer due his endless chakra reserves and his removed blindness. Trollkage and Mu were brought with their full strength.

It's not exactly the jutsu's fault they died in a worse condition than they normally were. Besides, their skills remained the same.



> Plus Deidara and Sasori were blitzed by Sai, and treated like fodder.


They were being cocky and laughing at Sai (well, only Deidara though). Even Edo Madara "died" several times because he got too cocky and didn't fight the Kage with their full strength.



> They were outnumbered yes, but who were they up against ?


They just didn't have the right tools to fight. Again, it's not Kabuto's lack of skill they died like that.



> Kankuro, Omoi, Sai and some fodder.


And Omoi happens to possesses one of Deidara's weakness; Raiton.



> Kakuzu was off paneled, he was getting his shit torn apart by the Chuunin bros(forgot their names) whom he dealt with relative ease when he was alive.


Already adressed.

It is probably we won't get a deep explanation of this discussion and the best we would get is "Because he is Madara, lol".


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2013)

"Fighting cocky" is the staple last ditch argument. Sasori and Deidara were both looking directly at Sai, commening on him drawing, then Sai flash-stepped them both from the ground. Simple as that. It wouldn't have happened if they were living. 

Who was next? The seven swordsmen? The only one we saw before was Zabuza, and he was instantly fodderized by an injured Kakashi. He lasted, no joke, a panel. I think living Zabuza would lose, but he would last more than a few seconds before having his heart pierced.  

Then we have super duper Kinkaku and Ginkaku, with all their hype that made the Gokage shit their pants, having their arms blitzed off by Darui's basic kenjutsu. Would that happen if they were alive? Personally, I somehow doubt that would be the case.

Oh, and Kakuzu of course. Wasn't he off-paneled by Chōji? Don't get me wrong, Chōji's awesome, but come on. Who else was there? Asuma? That guy that Ino was intercepting? Wow, either she became an elite Jōnin in reflexes, or well, give me a break. 

Oh, and Hanzō. Mr. Awesome. That guy that crippled healthy Nagato's legs? That guy that whipped the Sannin? Are you telling me that Mifune is the dude who put that guy down pretty much instantly in a single exchange? Yeah. Living Hanzō wouldn't take that shit.

Even Orochimaru with Hashirama's DNA couldn't bring Edo Tensei back to full strength. Kabuto was just suckling off of Orochimaru's pre-Senju chakra. That's why all of the above happened. That's why Madara got a massive speed boost. They're weaker dead.



And yeah, the stronger Edos were that much stronger. It should stand to reason. If Deidara, Sasori, Zabuza, Hanzō, Kinkaku, etc. were reduced to what they were, then other Edos experienced similar reduction. Mū, Itachi, and Nagato were just skill-beasts.

Kai is making the mistake of confusing Edos having their "tools," as Zetsu put it way back in the day, with Edos having their maximum amount of skill. Mū's Jinton, Hanzō's poison, Madara's Susano'o, etc. is full power, but that doesn't mean they are by a longshot.​


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## Sans (Dec 10, 2013)

ur    wrong


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## Sadgoob (Dec 10, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> ur    wrong


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

:rofl

but he's right, the whole manga is about the new gen surpassing the old one. 
so kakuzu and the others are all done for at their time and then they have been surpassed.


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## Ersa (Dec 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> :rofl
> 
> but he's right, the whole manga is about the new gen surpassing the old one.
> so kakuzu and the others are all done for at their time and then they have been surpassed.


Sai blitzing Deidara and Sasori is ludicrous no matter how you look at it. Hebi Sasuke couldn't do it from a closer distance and he's faster then Sai. Their Edo feats are pisspoor compared to their living incarnations and now we know Madara was weaker as an ET. If it applies to all other ET then it explains Hanzo, Deidara, Sasori and Kakuzu among others. Hanzo, stomped Mifune when he was at his prime and easily took on all three Sannin at once. Now he gets one-shotted by Mifune? The possibility is there. Nagato and Itachi didn't look that bad because they are just much stronger then the likes of Deidara and Sasori. If Nagato was brought back crippled and with white hair, maybe Itachi was brought back sick and still partially blind. Hanzo was brought back  just as he was in death (not in his prime).

And surpassing the old generation isn't exactly a theme right now, Madara is the strongest currently and he's last generation, Hashirama is arguably stronger then even BSM Naruto right now.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 10, 2013)

Plus the new surpassing the old schtick was retconned via Hashirama, Tobirama, Madara, etc. along with that theme about Naruto working hard to surpass genius.​


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Sai blitzing Deidara and Sasori is ludicrous no matter how you look at it. Hebi Sasuke couldn't do it from a closer distance and he's faster then Sai. Their Edo feats are pisspoor compared to their living incarnations and now we know Madara was weaker as an ET. If it applies to all other ET then it explains Hanzo, Deidara, Sasori and Kakuzu among others. Hanzo, stomped Mifune when he was at his prime and easily took on all three Sannin at once. Now he gets one-shotted by Mifune? The possibility is there. Nagato and Itachi didn't look that bad because they are just much stronger then the likes of Deidara and Sasori. If Nagato was brought back crippled and with white hair, maybe Itachi was brought back sick and still partially blind. Hanzo was brought back  just as he was in death (not in his prime).
> 
> And surpassing the old generation isn't exactly a theme right now, Madara is the strongest currently and he's last generation, Hashirama is arguably stronger then even BSM Naruto right now.



- Well, as any other character that just shows their progressing and new feats. 
- Naruto stated that Nagato was actually stronger and faster than Pain. 
- Hanzo died for many years, and he lost his belief which make him weaker according to what
was shown to us, not to mention Mifune had knowledge this time! 

Sasori though is understandable since he had returned without any of his puppets, so him being weaker does make sense. However, that's not the case for the others. 

- Well, Madara is going to be surpassed and we have a statement from Oro that Sasuke will
surpass Madara one day, so the theme is still there. 

As for Hashi I don't see him stronger than Naruto, an unlike Sasuke who have a statement that
he will surpass madara, kishi did not make such a statement for Naruto being inferior to Hashi!


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Plus the new surpassing the old schtick was retconned via Hashirama, Tobirama, Madara, etc. along with that theme about Naruto working hard to surpass genius.​



How on God's green earth does Tobirama change anything?  

Also, they do not change anything whatsoever, kishi never said the new gen will surpass the old
the moment they are born.  
and he kept saying the new gen will surpass the old, and the last one we have got is Oro's statement about Sasuke! 

Tobirama also said Naruto will be a better Hokage than Hashirama. =ر


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## Sadgoob (Dec 10, 2013)

The statement was that each generation surpasses the last. Nobody in the generation below Hashirama surpassed him, or the generation after, or the generation after, etc.​


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## Ersa (Dec 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Well, as any other character that just shows their progressing and new feats.
> - Naruto stated that Nagato was actually stronger and faster than Pain.
> - Hanzo died for many years, and he lost his belief which make him weaker according to what
> was shown to us, not to mention Mifune had knowledge this time!
> ...


You think Sai is faster then Hebi Sasuke?  You know a weaker Sasuke stomped Sai back in the Search for Orochimaru arc yeah? And then Sasuke got a lot stronger. Hebi Sasuke takes current Sai to the rapeshed, he can probably beat him without Sharingan or CS.

Nagato is more powerful then Pein, even with his skills dulled somewhat because he casts the jutsu instead of the Pein Rikudo. Doesn't mean a hypothetical Prime Nagato isn't stronger, just his more powerful jutsu make up for the ET nerf.

So if Hanzo wasn't revived at his prime, why would Itachi/Nagato be at their prime? Sasori not having puppets doesn't make up for the fact he got blitzed by 3.5 speed Sai. And what about Deidara? The guy survived against Team Gai (weakened) with no arms, dodges speedsters like Hebi Sasuke and yet gets owned by Sai? 

Most of the high-top tiers in the manga are last gen, RS/Madara/Hashirama/Nagato/Tobirama. The theme was abandoned long ago. I personally think Hashirama is equal with Naruto at the moment, possibly just a bit stronger but that's going to change very soon. Only Naruto/Sasuke follow the next gen is stronger theme, everyone else is left in the dirt.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The statement was that each generation surpasses the last. Nobody in the generation below Hashirama surpassed him, or the generation after, or the generation after, etc.​



I will give you examples from this very arc!

1- It's stated that Kamkuro surpassed Sasori.
2- Gaara's father stated that Gaara surpassed him. 
3- The whole thing with Asuma and his team. 
4- Team 7 and comparing them to the Sannin as they surpassed them.
5- Hashi stating that Sakura's power is stronger than Tsunade's
6- Tobirama stating that Minato is better than him. 
7- Oro's statement about Sasuke surpassing Madara
8- Tobirama's statement about Naruto being a better hokage than Hashi
9- Kabuto stated that his edo is better than Tobi and Oro
10- Kabuto stated that he surpassed Oro when he was about using his SM. 

...etc

This theme does not apply to every single one, but it apply to some and especially Naruto and
Sasuke.


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## αce (Dec 10, 2013)

Kabuto had to get Anko's DNA just to even revive have a shot at reviving Madara. It just seems to me that Kabuto failed at doing what Orochimaru also failed at doing in part one. He simply couldn't revive Madara at the peak of his abilities. This seems to be completely reasonable seeing as how Orochimaru took back Kabuto's chakra and then also wasn't able to revive Hashirama at full power. The only reason we didn't notice the fact that Madara was weaker was because he got some nice toys when he was revived and we have a lack of feats from when he was alive pre-founding era.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 10, 2013)

I have a few disagreements.



Elia said:


> 1- It's stated that Kamkuro surpassed Sasori.



Kankurō can't use 300 puppets at once. He's a punk.



Elia said:


> 2- Gaara's father stated that Gaara surpassed him.



Gaara's father uses superior "sand," and summons it all at once.



Elia said:


> This theme does not apply to every single one, but it apply to some and especially Naruto and
> Sasuke.



I agree with you here though.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> You think Sai is faster then Hebi Sasuke?  You know a weaker Sasuke stomped Sai back in the Search for Orochimaru arc yeah? And then Sasuke got a lot stronger. Hebi Sasuke takes current Sai to the rapeshed, he can probably beat him without Sharingan or CS.
> 
> Nagato is more powerful then Pein, even with his skills dulled somewhat because he casts the jutsu instead of the Pein Rikudo. Doesn't mean a hypothetical Prime Nagato isn't stronger, just his more powerful jutsu make up for the ET nerf.
> 
> ...



- I don't even know what does that have to do with what I said. 
1- Sasuke was not even attacking Deidara at first but Tobi
2- Sasuke did not even want to kill Deidara but ask him about itachi
3- that happened ages ago, both of them became better, that's just as lame as saying
Sasuke did the same thing against Naruto that time which mean he's faster than Naruto now
which is retarded.  

Who's prime Nagato? 
the only time we saw him was with his rampage, how do you know he was stronger?
this
this

even itachi and Nagato were specifically mentioned. U_U

- I did not say he was not revived at his prime. 
What I'm saying that the others get better while he was dead! As for Sai, you do know that
the 3rd Databook is outdated by around 250 chapters, no?  

Well, I gave examples earlier, but anyways, Naruto & Sasuke are the main focus after all! 

Finally, Kabuto stated that his edo is better than Oro, so even IF (and this is a huge if) they were
not raised at their full power, in Kabuto's kase they would be around 95 t0 100% of their power. 

While the Hokages from a weaker ET maybe around 90% of their power.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I have a few disagreements.
> 
> Kankurō can't use 300 puppets at once. He's a punk.
> 
> ...



- I also think it does not make sense, but that what was stated!
- Nay, Gaara defeated him easily, and he himself admitted that
this

Some times, I honestly doubt if kishi knows what he want with this ET crap.


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## Ersa (Dec 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> - I don't even know what does that have to do with what I said.
> 1- Sasuke was not even attacking Deidara at first but Tobi
> 2- Sasuke did not even want to kill Deidara but ask him about itachi
> 3- that happened ages ago, both of them became better, that's just as lame as saying
> ...


You said Sai got better feats, you're wrong. Hebi Sasuke has better feats then Sai, even now. He'd stomp current Sai. Also Sasuke did attempt to blitz, he Shunshined behind him and tried to attack after he 'slashed' Tobi. No I'm saying Hebi Sasuke has speed feats that put him far above Sai. It's no different from saying V2 Ei is faster then current Tsunade based on past feats.

Hypothetical buddy. I'm saying Prime Nagato > Edo Nagato.

If Hanzo was not revived in his prime, why would Itachi and Nagato be? Also I don't care that it's outdated, Hebi Sasuke stomps Sai. He can just Chidori him or use Manda to eat him.

Kabuto's ET is better then Part I Orochimaru. Since then Orochimaru absorbed his chakra back from Kabuto and got a Senju-body which augments ET as Tobirama noted. Zetsu Orochimaru ET > Kabuto ET > P1 Orochimaru ET.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 10, 2013)

Just because Kankurō said he surpassed Sasori doesn't mean he did. He could just be an arrogant Elite Jōnin that fancies himself a solid Kage level. That's my take on his claim anyway.

On the other hand, Gaara's dad is horrifically underestimated IMO. Gaara may have bested him _in a desert_, but his dad claps his hands for a desert of his  medium, and his medium is better than sand.​


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## Coppur (Dec 10, 2013)

Kai, don't kill prime Itachi, please. 

But seriously I'm going to have to agree with you, Kai, the Edo Tensei don't get noticeably stronger, with the exception of Madara, but his case seems to be special, seeing by the fact that it could have to do with Harry Potter's experimentation on Madara. Or (I find this reason to be much more likely) Madara just wanted an adrenaline rush from being alive and being able to feel blood on his own hands.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 10, 2013)

Jagger said:


> That doesn't mean every single Edo zombie was brought back weaker than they were in their life. Itachi was pretty much the same character, in fact, he could fight much longer due his endless chakra reserves and his removed blindness. Trollkage and Mu were brought with their full strength.
> 
> It's not exactly the jutsu's fault they died in a worse condition than they normally were. Besides, their skills remained the same.
> 
> ...



Well lets say its agree to disagree then.
But I wouldn't attribute all of the terrible performances of EDO's to character induced stupidity alone. I genuinely think they were simply weaker.

I was always under the impression that EDO tensei wasn't a perfect copy of the Original, based on the fact that Kabuto had to use Orochimaru's chakra to boost its potential. And we were never told to what extend they were boosted. 

And like strategos pointed out, even post senju body Oro could only bring them *almost* @ full power. Someone who got praised by Hashirama in return for his skilled usage of Edo Tensei. 
Even with the assumption that Kabuto's ET was as good as Post Senju Body Oro's, then it means his ET were never @ full capacity. 

This instance reminds me of this : 

*Pretty sure he tried to grab Danzou here.*

*Pretty sure he tried to grab Danzou here.*

Kakashi thought something was off, despite stating that Gokakyu was the real thing.


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## Alex Payne (Dec 10, 2013)

Orochimaru used Edo Tensei before jumping inside Zetsu. Senju-cells boosted his binding power, that's all. His level of ET should be roughly equal to Kabuto's.


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## Dominus (Dec 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> Madara did not break them because he was regenerating from the COFRS that just hit him.
> not because he could not!



We've seen that Nagato can use his abilities while regenerating and Madara's body was pretty much regenerated.



> So, you think Hashi saying that is a better proof than Madara saying he was at his full power?
> Does Hashi know about madara more than himself and Kabuto who modified his body?



Madara said that he'll use his full power, in other words that he won't hold back any more. What does that have to do with current Madara and Edo Madara?
What Kabuto said was true, but he was talking about the Madara that Hashirama fought, not about the current one.
Hashirama was talking about Madara's past powers, Kabuto doesn't know about them. Hashirama fought both EMS Madara and Edo Madara, but as you can see he said that only now that he's alive he got his powers back.



> As for the last question, I told you I'll wait and see what will madara do more than what he did!
> and I told if he is stronger now it is because he has SM now while he did not have that as an edo!



Well that's just you being stubborn, like I've said Hashirama was talking about Madara's past powers which he didn't have as an Edo Tensei, but has them when he's alive and Madara already trashed SM Naruto and Sai without eyes before he got SM.


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## Jagger (Dec 10, 2013)

Well, I don't know what else to adress to this debate anymore. The only contradiction here is Madara. 

Either all the zombies are brought less powerful than when they were alive or Madara is an unique case because...well, because he's Madara. He's pretty a wannabe Rikkudo without the Juubi's power. 

Also, it's not the jutsu's fault the person that is being revived died in a pitiful condition. For example, Kakuzu without his hearts, Chiyo and her old age, Nagato and his crippled legs, etc. It is true they were left in a state much weaker than how they usually are, but that's the result of a clash against another shinobi, not the jutsu's malfunctioning. For example, Kakuzu was brought back with no hearts. The jutsu revived him with the same amount of power he had left before he died.


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## Turrin (Dec 10, 2013)

I agree the Edo Tensei are weaker, but there is no Zetsu-Orochimaru ET, Orochimaru used Edo Tensei before he took Zetsu's body. Orochimaru and Kabuto's ET brings the ET back at near full power.


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## Bonly (Dec 10, 2013)

The only Edo's the were weaker/weaken are Hashi,Tobi,Hiruzen,Minato, and Madara although with it might as well be ignored since he got KCM+BM. Also might as well throw in Sasori+Chiyo since they didn't have access to their puppets but otherwise everyone else were brought back at full.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 10, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Kishimoto did make an effort he told use twice now that the Edos are weakened; once through Tobirama and now through Madara. Mizukage also potentially implies it w/ this statement:
> 
> 
> _The 2nd mizu: if yous cant beat me on your own (merits) that means yous are below me who is already dead, does it not! Slowcoach!!
> The 2nd mizu: how can yous beat an enemy boss like that eh!!_



With Tobirama and Madara, his choice of language made it sound only applicable to said shinobi.

The Mizukage doesn't imply that at all, the context suggested that the enemy boss (Kabuto/Obito) was so much stronger.



> Tobirama cites the proficiency of the Jutsu increasing, to the point where now they can be brought back at near full power. The focus has always been on the Jutsu's efficiency not the individual.
> 
> Plus as I have explained to you it makes no sense on an individual basis. Becuase why would Orochimaru be able to bring back Tobirama & Hashirama at near full power. Hashirama is way stronger than Tobirama, so it should ether be
> 
> ...



Yes, but he said that _this time_ he brought _them_ at full power. Orochimaru only brought back two people the last time, so Kishimoto obviously wanted us to think that Hashirama and Tobirama _still_ weren't brought back at 100% power.

Or there could be a option C, wherein character at certain tiers of power are trickier to bring back. Either Orochimaru can't bring back those in Tobirama tier+ at full power. 

Again the comments you're using as the "meat" of the point are tailored to the individuals in question. You don't see any hints that, 50% Kurama is weakened, for instance. Nor have we seen any indication that any other Edos were weakened.


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## DeK3iDE (Dec 10, 2013)

while good points were made by any side to w/e extent, i do think only Madara and _possibly_ Hashirama this is a reach were nerfed by ET. I don't recall any indications that such happened to everyone that were summoned, especially the ones who actually benefited from being undead i.e. Itachi, Nagato, Kimimaro, Minato, Tobirama


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## Turrin (Dec 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> With Tobirama and Madara, his choice of language made it sound only applicable to said shinobi.
> 
> The Mizukage doesn't imply that at all, the context suggested that the enemy boss (Kabuto/Obito) was so much stronger.


The context implies exactly that, you keep failing to read the part about efficiency w/ the Jutsu.



> Yes, but he said that _this time_ he brought _them_ at full power. Orochimaru only brought back two people the last time, so Kishimoto obviously wanted us to think that Hashirama and Tobirama _still_ weren't brought back at 100% power.
> .


No the reason why it was exclusive to Hashirama and Tobirama is because they were the only ones brought back last time. Not because they are the only ones brought back at near full power now.



> Or there could be a option C, wherein character at certain tiers of power are trickier to bring back. Either Orochimaru can't bring back those in Tobirama tier+ at full power.


Which again makes no sense, because if Orochimaru is able to bring someone on Hashirama's Tier back at near full power, it still makes no sense that he'd be unable to bring someone on Tobirama's lower tier back at full power.



> Again the comments you're using as the "meat" of the point are tailored to the individuals in question. You don't see any hints that, 50% Kurama is weakened, for instance. Nor have we seen any indication that any other Edos were weakened.


They aren't tailored to individuals in question, which is why we keep seeing other individuals bring up being weakened as Edo Tensei, like Madara (potentially Mizukage as well) and why Tobirama mentions the efficiency of the Jutsu being the issue, not the individual being the issue. 

You are over complicating a very simple matter.


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