# Feat vs Feat: Edo Madara vs alive Minato (read OP).



## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Ok, people, i'd like to know your opinion on who's feat is more impressive - Edo Madara's feat of reacting to V2 Ei and blocking his punch, or alive Minato's feat of reacting to... Um, young teenager Ei's top speed.

First of all, i want to explain why Edo Madara reacted to V2 Ei, not V1. This feat was discussed many times. 

Take a look at this:



As you can see, his hair is spikey, his Raiton armor is thick. There is no doubt - it is V2.

Later, what does he do? That's right - he strikes Edo Madara. 



Edo Madara was already dodging Mei's Lava Release.

And Ei's hair seemed strange - it didnt look very spikey. Raiton Armor looked thick, but the hair...

There is one thing many people forget about - Ei's hair moves due to great V2 speed.



His hair could move so it didnt look as V2, especially when Edo Madara blocked his punch, bluntly slowing him down with that. 

Also, take a look at this. Looks familiar, doesnt it? And it was V2.



His hair was a little bit different in Edo Madara's fight, because of him hitting Madara and, thanks to that, bluntly slowing down. Imagine a bullet going through layer of steel in the air. It will slow down after hitting steel layer, dont you think? 

Add there is a fact that, in a fight with Sasuke, Ei never cried that he needs to "up his speed" - he just went V2. Prevent Onoki from using his OP-offencive Jinton in order to make himself faster, when you can just go V2, allowing Onoki to use Jinton? Realy? Saying that Madara "can guard himself against *even* my speed"? Realy? Using V1 against an Uchiha far above MS Sasuke, who also has Mangekyou? Realy? 

And even lightened Ei's movement was traced by Edo Madara. He was looking at the exact location from which Aggravated Rock Technique hit his Susanoo.




So yeah - it was V2 Ei.

But Minato dodged young Ei's speed with his Hiraishin.

So i am interesting about your opinion - which feat is more impressive?


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## Alex Payne (Sep 5, 2015)

Didn't Raikage confirm that it was V2 when he said that he needs to amp his speed further(Onoki backpack)?

Either way Madara's looks more impressive. He was preoccupied with Mei's jutsu and still physically reacted to A. Plus didn't get his arms messed up due to Raikage's strength. Minato looked directly at A and considering the last second Hiraishin - was unable to throw up a guard.


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## Kyu (Sep 5, 2015)

> Um, young teenager Ei's top speed



Bruh...Ei was in his mid-late twenties.


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## t0xeus (Sep 5, 2015)

We can't just assume how much better did A get since his fight with Minato, so comparing these two seems pointless to me, but whatever, I agree with Alex Payne.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Didn't Raikage confirm that it was V2 when he said that he needs to amp his speed further(Onoki backpack)?
> 
> Either way Madara's looks more impressive. He was preoccupied with Mei's jutsu and still physically reacted to A. Plus didn't get his arms messed up due to Raikage's strength. Minato looked directly at A and considering the last second Hiraishin - was unable to throw up a guard.



Yes, he did. And that's what i was talking about.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Bruh...Ei was in his mid-late twenties.



Well, ok. I agree.

But i think Ei's got... faster since then, judging from his thicker Raiton armor. And years of experience + training + feats. Yes, we can say that he was 40-50 years old, but that hardly proves anything.

Fabricio Werdum is 38 years old and is a much better fighter now then when he was younger.


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2015)

Madara reacted to V1 A, even Jugo reacted to that. So yeah, this thread is dumb. 
u can clearly see that A's hair is the same as in V1. He even was planing to go faster next.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Madara reacted to V1 A, even Jugo reacted to that. So yeah, this thread is dumb.



Madara reacted to V2, not V1. And i've already explained why it was V2.

I was expecting you to post in this thread. Maybe you'll try to prove me wrong? Bring it on, Hussain. 



> u can clearly see that A's hair is the same as in V1. He even was planing to go faster next.



Not realy. And he said that Madara can guard himself against *even* his speed. What was preventing him from just going V2 and allowing Onoki to use his Jinton? Oh... He already used V2 and it was useless against Madara.

I advice you to read what i've wrote up there.


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara reacted to V2, not V1. And i've already explained why it was V2.
> 
> I was expecting you to post in this thread. Maybe you'll try to prove me wrong? Bring it on, Hussain.






you putted the pic yourself man.  



Did not know A has V3 that he was planing to do. 

not as of that matters anyway, Minato dodge it completely, and Madara couldn't dodge and old Geezer speed.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 5, 2015)

Isn't Part 2 A like ~50. The age when your physical abilities are starting to decline. So there is that. Either way Kishi didn't make a distinction in speed between flashback A and current A.


It was A's best speed, Hussain. Raikage wouldn't cooperate with Onoki if that wasn't the case.


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> It was A's best speed, Hussain. Raikage wouldn't cooperate with Onoki if that wasn't the case.



A said he is going to up his speed more. Onoki, *after several pages* said he has plan.
There is noway A would have known that Onoki has a plan prior to him claiming so.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> A said he is going to up his speed more. Onoki, *after several pages* said he has plan.
> There is noway A would have known that Onoki has a plan prior to him claiming so.



"I've got to up my speed"... Through Onoki's use. 

It doesnt matter - Ei knew about Onoki's ability to make things lighter.

And Onoki has Jinton, which he couldnt use while helping Ei.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

> Isn't Part 2 A like ~50. The age when your physical abilities are starting to decline. So there is that. Either way Kishi didn't make a distinction in speed between flashback A and current A.



But what about his mastery over chakra and Shunshin? His Raiton Armor was thicker when he was older.


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## t0xeus (Sep 5, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> "I've got to up my speed"... Through Onoki's use.
> 
> And it doesnt matter - Ei knew of Onoki's ability to make things lighter.
> 
> And Onoki has Jinton, which he couldnt use while helping Ei.



The way A said it seems like he really wasn't using HIS full speed (nevermind the Oonoki lightening technique, as he would just directly ask Oonoki).

It can be just a bad translation, but just that simple line may just confirm A being in V1 in that part.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

t0xeus said:


> The way A said it seems like he really wasn't using HIS full speed (nevermind the Oonoki lightening technique, as he would just directly ask Oonoki).
> 
> It can be just a bad translation, but just that simple line may just confirm A being in V1 in that part.



Well, he cried out loud that he needs to up his speed for the team, to cooperate with them more suitable. If he thought that he can take on Madara by himself with his V2, he would've done the same thing he did in a fight with MS Sasuke.  And he never attacked Madara before Onoki saying to him about his plan. Plus, the words "even my speed". He wast surprised like that about Jugo, or Suigetsu reacting to his V1 speed when they fought. 

Plus, he had V2 look right before rushing at Madara. Thick Raiton armor and spikey hair. Plus, no sense to prevent Onoki from using Jinton.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2015)

Minato thought ahead and prepared a counter attack (the kunai over the shoulder) in response to A coming at him from a much closer distance. That said, Minato didn't have to deal with both A & Mei at the same time. 

The feats are comparable in how "impressive" they are, to me at least. I like to put Minato (and Tobirama I guess) at the top of the base ninja in regards to reflexes because of their portrayal/hype. Other tier fives flying under the radar like Itachi & Gai wouldn't be far behind, if behind at all, and Edo Madara would be right up there with them.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

If Madara really guarded against V2 Ā's punch with no ill effects, V2 Ā's punch is really, _really_, weak.

Which is why I still think it's V1.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2015)

Strength inconsistencies. Blocking with no ill-effects is pretty common.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2015)

Minato did better he didn't get touched


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Strength inconsistencies. Blocking with no ill-effects is pretty common.



That, or Madara is just more durable than we think. He did take Tsunade's kick when she and Ā teleported, though it obviously wasn't her hardest hit.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 5, 2015)

Ei was in V1 against Madara. The hair is clearly V1, and Ei confirms that he will up the speed next time. Ei also said Madara was able to guard against his speed, Ei never said "Top speed" like he said against Minato,

Eis speed didn't increase either. He stated to Naruto that he is the second person to dodge his fastest punch. Kishi implying that Naruto evaded the same speed Minato did. Not to mention minatos feat being much better because not only did he counter, and not only was it v2, and not only was the distance much closer compared to madaras... People are forgetting that Ei leaped to get to Madara. Running in a straight line against Minato means you can reach your top speed faster and maintain it. You can't reach your top speed with a leap, nor can you maintain it, not to mention gravity slowing him down.
Garbage thread.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2015)

Maybe, but there's some inconsistencies with his durability too. Lee kicked him in half and Sasuke's sword went right through his Sage Mode self. Madara's likely more durable than your average Joe, but I don't think he escaped injury against A because of the latter's lack of strength.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 5, 2015)

Wasn't that because of the shroud's claws?

IIRC there was a slicing sfx instead of a crushing one.


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## LostSelf (Sep 5, 2015)

Yes. Shrouded Lee's kick was more a slicing one than a blunt force one. 

Maybe Madara felt damage, but recovered since he's an edo. Or maybe he doesn't feel pain at all, being an edo. I mean, Edo Haku also blocked Gai and Lee's kick, but who knows if the living version would've cried on pain for that. It should be what Rocky says. Blocking with no ill-effects.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Wasn't that because of the shroud's claws?
> 
> IIRC there was a slicing sfx instead of a crushing one.



I didn't see any, and the claws tend to come from the hands, but I guess it's possible since he did have a shroud.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 5, 2015)

Eh, I don't think A was in v2 when he was drop-kicking Sasuke. v2 is a flicker that lasts only a handful of moments at most. And like you said his hair looked v1 against Madara.

Maybe the viz will clear it up, but the Narutobase translation makes it seem like he didn't use his max speed as an opener against Madara there, and his hair IMO looks more like v1.

Good point on the shroud thickness though. That makes me wonder.​


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If Madara really guarded against V2 Ā's punch with no ill effects, V2 Ā's punch is really, _really_, weak.
> 
> Which is why I still think it's V1.



Edo Madara was a durable individual. Although Kurama-amped Lee cut him in half with a kick. He withstood Tsunade's kick.

But i, personally, think that V2 Ei's firepower isnt great compare to top-tier shinobi. Good, yes, but not great. His V2 chop broke Sasuke's Susanoo ribs, but couldnt kill Sasuke himself.



> Ei was in V1 against Madara. The hair is clearly V1, and Ei confirms that he will up the speed next time. Ei also said Madara was able to guard against his speed, Ei never said "Top speed" like he said against Minato,
> 
> Eis speed didn't increase either. He stated to Naruto that he is the second person to dodge his fastest punch. Kishi implying that Naruto evaded the same speed Minato did. Not to mention minatos feat being much better because not only did he counter, and not only was it v2, and not only was the distance much closer compared to madaras... People are forgetting that Ei leaped to get to Madara. Running in a straight line against Minato means you can reach your top speed faster and maintain it. You can't reach your top speed with a leap, nor can you maintain it, not to mention gravity slowing him down.
> Garbage thread.



No, it wasnt "clearly V1". And Ei confirmed that he's got to up his speed. He cried out loud and didnt attack Madara by himself before Onoki made him lighter.  And he said "even my speed". If it wasnt V2, he wouldnt cooperate with Onoki, who has Jinton. If it wasnt V2, he wouldnt have V2 look right before attacking Madara. You can read what i wrote here earlier. *It was V2*.

Are you sure he leaped a great distance there so his speed would be slower? Are you sure? Do you have any proof? Maybe you should run, reach your top speed and then jump? At first, you wont get slower. 

And the fact he was the second person doesnt mean much - it is a fact he was the second person to dodge his fastest punch since Minato. But that hardly proves anything. It's just the fact he was the second person, that's it. 

Hell, you can be a great chess player since childhood, to the point that you were unbeatable. But there was one person who actaully beat you in your teen years. But after that you improve your skills and, 17 years later, you lose again. Than you say to the winner that he is the second person who could beat you. Does that mean you were as good as 17 years ago?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato did better he didn't get touched


He also had knowledge that Ei was fast.

Madara had no knowledge on his speed or strength and his vision was being blocked by the lava burst in front of him initially. I don't see why he wouldn't attempt a block considering he didn't know Ei was that powerful, even so, it worked- because he didn't even remotely break his guard or injure him, which is exactly the end Madara intended when he put his arms up to block. 

Madara's individual feat was superior, there is no refuting this. He didn't mentally activate a jutsu, he physically moved his arms to block him when his fist was less than a foot from his face.

Also, Minato was touched [1].


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

Someone needs to head to the latest Chapters and look up what the Viz translation of Ā's words.

By the way, we need to clear up some misconceptions:

Ā's Lightning Horizontal Chop wasn't when he was in V2. He stopped himself before he touched Sasuke's Amaterasu-infused ribcage, _then_ decided on finishing the move. He had no momentum when he actually struck the ribcage, so it was actually a stationary Lightning Horizontal Chop.

Secondly, Ā's Guillotine Drop Kick is simply him falling downwards and using an axe kick; there's no Shunshin involved. Hence why Sasuke could actually react to it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2015)

@davizwiz 

Minato wasn't touched or A wouldn't say minato avoided his fastest punch that's just straight up retarded 
2 madara knew A was fast why?

Raiton chakra mode is something he obviously knew before A even came at him . RCm would make u fast by default 

 u argue for arguing sake the worst being ur claim minato got hit by A


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## ARGUS (Sep 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He also had knowledge that Ei was fast.
> 
> Madara had no knowledge on his speed or strength and his vision was being blocked by the lava burst in front of him initially. I don't see why he wouldn't attempt a block considering he didn't know Ei was that powerful, even so, it worked- because he didn't even remotely break his guard or injure him, which is exactly the end Madara intended when he put his arms up to block.
> 
> ...



Essentially this
Madara not only was dodging meis lava, but was airborne and was sneak attacked by Ay more or less 

Yet despite all that madara still physically blocked Ays punch who appeared at him whilst he was completely defenseless 

Minato on the other hand was clearly seeing Ay coming right at him and didn't have to worry about other hindrances, 
But he still reacted physically by tossing a kunai up

Madaras feat is more impressive but minatos isn't far behind mainly because moving your hands up against a sneak attack whilst dodging lava is more impressive than just tossing a kunai against a right frontal attack


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

> @davizwiz
> 
> Minato wasn't touched or A wouldn't say minato avoided his fastest punch that's just straight up retarded
> 2 madara knew A was fast why?
> ...


I just put the scan showing his nose was grazed by A. In fact, the lightning is streaming past his nose, so at the very least you can claim that his chakras touched him.



> Madara not only was dodging meis lava, but was airborne and had his field of vision blocked by meis hidden mist, which ended up hindering his precognition


Just looked back, Hidden Mist was used for the second blitz attempt [1].

All things considered, it's still irrelevant. Madara having knowledge that Ei can use it doesn't mean he is inherently suppose to expect he has _that_ kind of speed, Ei's "bijuu level" chakras and already notable base speed allow him to augment his shunshin to higher speeds through the technique.

It also doesn't negate the fact that his field of vision was blocked by Mei's lava burst, which from this panel, you can clearly see Madara's eye-view, of Ei, at the very least, is blocked [1]. giving him the advantage of Madara not seeing him move initially.

Without these factors, Madara reacting to Ei straight up from the same distance without Mei blocking his vision and garnering his attention, then blocking with full knowledge on his speed would still be a superior feature to Minato reacting with FTG, because he physically moved both of his arms to block his already extended arm, while Minato simply mentally activated a technique when Ei was already practically touching his nose.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

Madara's feat is clearly better; not only did he have to actually physically block the attack - whereas Minato only had to mentally activate Hiraishin - but Madara's attention was already _divided_ between Ā and Mei's lava.

I didn't believe it was V2 Ā at first, but now it's fairly obvious it was. Ā isn't stupid, he wouldn't use just V1, against a Uchiha that had just finished wiping out an entire army singlehandedly and was hyped ad nauseum via Tsunade. Sounding surprised that Madara could block his speed, when a far, _far_ less hyped Uchiha in Sasuke actually outmaneuvered this level of speed and a random clown in Jūgo blocked it as well, means V1 isn't likely. It's V2.

Though one detriment to Ā is, shinobi who are fairly durable can now block his strongest hits (outside of cutting ones) without lasting damage. Sages, Jinchūriki, Gates users, etc. Though, it shouldn't have been a surprise when Base Killer Bee didn't seem too hurt by V2 Ā's Lariat.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2015)

Edo Madara never reacted and blocked V2 A's punch.

You can close the thread now.


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2015)

If his chakra touched him
A won't claim minato avoided his punch . It's not rocket science 
If I hit u , u didn't avoid me 

Seriously !!

The scan could have simply been showing A got close yet was still so far from touching minato


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## StarWanderer (Sep 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Edo Madara never reacted and blocked V2 A's punch.
> 
> You can close the thread now.



In fact - yes, he did.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2015)

^
No he didn't.

His V2 form and his V1 are disntictively different, his hair isn't spiky in the scans you posted, not like when he amped up his shroud to the max.

Also he initiated Madara in mid air, meaning he jumped. As the laws of physics dictate, he moment he stops accelerating(aka the instant his foot leave the ground) he will start to get slower, meaning he wasn't at his top speed when he attemted to punch Madara. So even if you keep closing your eyes and ears, ignore the manga and keep yelling "he was in V2 ! he was in V2 ! lalalalalalalal he was in V2!" it still doesn't mean he was at his top speed. Not even remotely close. 

Contrary to his feats against Minato and Sasuke where he was running on foot on the ground, keeping his momentum and reaching his max speed.

Which is irrelevant because he wasn't in V2 or close to his top speed. And we know that Juugo can replicate what Madara did in CS2 when A isn't at his top speed. So it is not a notable feat at all.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 6, 2015)

You don't say those words after you use your casual speed.


And you don't do this either



Raikage had reason to hold back. Like - at all.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2015)

You can actually, C said the same thing when A was using just V1 against Taka. Tsunade said the same thing when Naruto was "keeping up" with his V1.


I also don't think Raikage's V2 would be enough to blitz and break Madara's guard, thats why he went even further. Because his V2 wasn't enough to deal with Minato and Sasuke. Also "power to crush his guard."


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

Seriously.

Ā just finished enduring a lecture from Tsunade about how powerful Madara was, the absolute definition of power, etc.,  and you're saying he'd use *V1* against him? Remember, Ā commenced his battle against Madara with _four other Kage_. He had to take the fight by going all-out.

"Even my speed" is telling. Sasuke, an absolute peon compared to Madara (evident in how Raikage constantly calls him a brat), didn't have problems with V1. Why would the rival of the God of Shinobi then? Why so surprised?

Maybe because it was *V2*, because frankly, Ā has seen a grand total of 2 exceptionally fast (God of Flash and the fucking Kyūbi Jinchūriki himself) shinobi that have escaped his V2 speed, and seeing another do it so casually surprised him. 

Couple this evidence with Ā *not* immediately attaching Madara afterwards, as he did Sasuke, to imply that Ā simply couldn't think of another option before Ōnōki stepped in to help. Ā is arrogant as fuck. For all his boasting about power, if he had an ace up his sleeve, he would've used it long before conceding his lack of power by working with another shinobi.

Madara pisses all over V2. Deal with it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2015)

It wasn't V2. It is made pretty clear in the manga. And Like I already explained, even if A's shroud was V2, it couldn't be his top speed, considering he jumped @ Madara instead of using his shunshin like he would if he was on the ground. You can read my post for details.

As for Madara vs V2, I do believe that Madara can percieve and guard against it. Although that wouldn't amount it to anything. If throwing his hands up in the air reflexively is all he can do against it, then he is fucked anyways.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> No he didn't.
> 
> His V2 form and his V1 are disntictively different, his hair isn't spiky in the scans you posted, not like when he amped up his shroud to the max.
> ...



I said exactly the same the before, but apparently it skipped over some heads. No matter if he was in v1 or v2, a leap upwards is not the same as running full soeed along the ground and maintaining momentum. There is no way he could have reached top speed by jumping, gravity itself is slowing him down.

Not to mention that hair is clearly v1.

Edit:
Dont see why Ei would even need v2. He knows edo madara wont feel pain and will just regenerate anyway


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

If Ā knew it wasn't his top speed, why did he give off such a reaction? Why did he not immediately attack Madara afterwards with, your supposed, true speed?

Ā's words take precedence over your assumptions over Kishimoto's drawing inconsistencies. There's a ton of giant Mokūton branches in the area; there are plenty of jumping points for Ā to have used to have Shunshin'ed downwards.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 6, 2015)

Just like tsuande also said before as well. "Naruto can keep up with raikages speed". She said that even though it wasnt his top speed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If Ā knew it wasn't his top speed, why did he give off such a reaction? Why did he not immediately attack Madara afterwards with, your supposed, true speed?
> 
> Ā's words take precedence over your assumptions over Kishimoto's drawing inconsistencies. There's a ton of giant Mokūton branches in the area; there are plenty of jumping points for Ā to have used to have Shunshin'ed downwards.



If speed alone was the problem, why does his statement leans towards "having the power to cursh his guard ?"

It is apparent that A's main concern wasn't his speed, but his capability to break his guard.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If speed alone was the problem, why does his statement leans towards "having the power to cursh his guard ?"
> 
> It is apparent that A's main concern wasn't his speed, but his capability to break his guard.



Exactly. If Ā didn't have enough power to break his guard, but still hadn't used his full speed, *why didn't he just go ahead and do so*? It is completely out-of-character for him not to follow up.

Regardless, you're still overlooking the fact that Ā was surprised Madara could react and block his speed. This surprise denotes a) its surprising to Ā that the strongest Uchiha of all time can react to a velocity that countless others have or B) it's surprising to Ā that the strongest Uchiha can react to a velocity that only two others in history have.

Realize that the "guard yourself" and "break his guard" statements refer to two separate things. Ā was surprised that Madara could save himself from a V2 blitz at all in the first statement, then says he needs to up his speed to break his Susanoo in the second statement.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Exactly. If Ā didn't have enough power to break his guard, but still hadn't used his full speed, *why didn't he just go ahead and do so*? It is completely out-of-character for him not to follow up.
> 
> Regardless, you're still overlooking the fact that Ā was surprised Madara could react and block his speed. This surprise denotes a) its surprising to Ā that the strongest Uchiha of all time can react to a velocity that countless others have or B) it's surprising to Ā that the strongest Uchiha can react to a velocity that only two others in history have.
> 
> Realize that the "guard yourself" and "break his guard" statements refer to two separate things. Ā was surprised that Madara could save himself from a V2 blitz at all in the first statement, then says he needs to up his speed to break his Susanoo in the second statement.



I think A is very well aware of his own capabilities and he knew he wouldn't be able to straight up blitz Madara and as long as he had his guard up his attempts of KO'ing him would be futile.

In the manga they never make the distinction between A's levels of speed. Like I pointed out earlier, Tsunade was surprised that Naruto was able to keep up with A's speed, despite us knowing that A could go faster. Same thing was noted by C. 

There is A's top speed, and there is the rest. So I wouldn't be surprised if Kishimoto made the exact same statement for the 3rd time "oh you can keep up with A?"


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2015)

when A top speed is reacted to or blocked he always uses the word you avoided my top speed 
vs just my speed

50/50 he didn't go V2, in that instance against madara


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> when A top speed is reacted to or blocked he always uses the word you avoided my top speed
> vs just my speed
> 
> 50/50 he didn't go V2, in that instance against madara


Was just watching the episode. He was definitely in v1 there at least.


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## Callen (Sep 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> when A top speed is reacted to or blocked he always uses the word you avoided my top speed
> vs just my speed
> 
> *50/50 he didn't go V2, in that instance against madara*



Yea? Raw says he did


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2015)

Not that it matters 
Minato counter attacked madara blocked 
Not sure how both can be compared

@callen
who translated the raw for you ? Raw scan with official translation please


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## StarWanderer (Sep 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> No he didn't.
> 
> His V2 form and his V1 are disntictively different, his hair isn't spiky in the scans you posted, not like when he amped up his shroud to the max.
> ...



You cant be sure about that. And he turned on his V2 right before Mizukage attacked Madara.

And he will get slower with time. His speed wont be very different right after jumping, especially with his Shunshin, especially when there were lots of wood there.

It is you who keep ayes closed. It was V2, because of many manga facts which has been written up there.



> I think A is very well aware of his own capabilities and he knew he wouldn't be able to straight up blitz Madara and as long as he had his guard up his attempts of KO'ing him would be futile.
> 
> In the manga they never make the distinction between A's levels of speed. Like I pointed out earlier, Tsunade was surprised that Naruto was able to keep up with A's speed, despite us knowing that A could go faster. Same thing was noted by C.
> 
> There is A's top speed, and there is the rest. So I wouldn't be surprised if Kishimoto made the exact same statement for the 3rd time "oh you can keep up with A?"



And i think Ei wasnt surprised when Jugo and Suigetsu reacted to his speed, but when Madara did, he was surprised and said that Madara can guard himself against *even* his speed. That's another manga fact you ignore.

There are lots of facts which prove it was V2, but you still keep ignoring them. Alright. 



> Was just watching the episode. He was definitely in v1 there at least.


*
Anime isnt canon.*



> Not that it matters
> Minato counter attacked madara blocked
> Not sure how both can be compared
> 
> ...



Minato used teleportation to avoid his top speed and counter-attack him. Madara physically reacted to Ei - he blocked his V2 blitz punch with his hands when it was at point-blank range.


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2015)

@star regardless of the means minato result was better 
so not sure why the BS semantics here 

Minato will always perform better in evading an enemy than most cuz he can casually teleport . Why waste his time blocking 

Kishi the author doesn't rank KCM naruto avoiding A punch above what minato did . 

He places them at the same level . If not A would have been like omg unlike ur dad u used physical speed bla bla bla


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think A is very well aware of his own capabilities and he knew he wouldn't be able to straight up blitz Madara and as long as he had his guard up his attempts of KO'ing him would be futile.



Which begs the question, why on earth would Ā hold back then? You're shooting your own argument in the ass with every post.

Ā had no reason to hold back. None at all.



> In the manga they never make the distinction between A's levels of speed. Like I pointed out earlier, Tsunade was surprised that Naruto was able to keep up with A's speed, despite us knowing that A could go faster. Same thing was noted by C.



That's because Tsunade hasn't seen someone of Ā's speed up until that point.

On the other hand, Ā has witnessed Jūgo react to his speed, block it, witnessed Sasuke outright evading that level of speed and counterattacking, seen Naruto match it at the very least, and none of those individuals have had the hype Madara has. Yet, Ā was only surprised when he saw Madara reacting to his Shunshin.

Because it wasn't V1. V1 would not have elicited surprise from Ā. Everyone and their mothers can react to it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Which begs the question, why on earth would Ā hold back then? You're shooting your own argument in the ass with every post.
> 
> Ā had no reason to hold back. None at all.


A wasn't holding back. He just didn't/couldn't use his max speed. Usually the fights escalate gradually, just because someone doesn't use his strongest move right from the start doesn't mean they are holding back.

Also he couldn't even he wanted to, like I explained he leaped towards Madara, he wouldn't be able to use his shunshin the way he used it against, Minato, Naruto and Sasuke.



> That's because Tsunade hasn't seen someone of Ā's speed up until that point.
> 
> On the other hand, Ā has witnessed Jūgo react to his speed, block it, witnessed Sasuke outright evading that level of speed and counterattacking, seen Naruto match it at the very least, and none of those individuals have had the hype Madara has. Yet, Ā was only surprised when he saw Madara reacting to his Shunshin.
> 
> Because it wasn't V1. V1 would not have elicited surprise from Ā. Everyone and their mothers can react to it.


Neither Sasuke or Juugo are as fast as A(being able to react =/= being equally fast). Tsunade witnessed someone running as fast as A, thats why she noted it, that  is true.

But I retain my position with this one.
Visually, it isn't V2. Circumstances(Madara being up above and A being have to jump towards him) prevent A from using his max speed.

It is just classic Kishimoto. C noted that it was surprising that team Taka were keeping up with A's V1. Before A started using his max speed. Same happened here. A's speed is impressive non the less. Even when he isn't using his max.

And going by your logic, Madara guarding against his max speed shouldn't be impressive because he witnessed Naruto do something even more impressive(not just throwing his arms in the air but actually moving past him) an hour earlier. 
Actually you shot down your own argument here.



StarWanderer said:


> You cant be sure about that. And he turned on his V2 right before Mizukage attacked Madara.


Nah, his hair doesn't look like this : [1]
or this : [1]
or this : [1]
His shroud isn't amped in the scans you posted. 



> And he will get slower with time. His speed wont be very different right after jumping, especially with his Shunshin, especially when there were lots of wood there.


Not if he can't keep his foot on the ground and gain momentum. Leaping =/= running and accelerating.



> It is you who keep ayes closed. It was V2, because of many manga facts which has been written up there.


I explained why it isn't V2, or why it can't be his max shunshin.
You are basically ignoring manga and everything I said here.



> And i think Ei wasnt surprised when Jugo and Suigetsu reacted to his speed, but when Madara did, he was surprised and said that Madara can guard himself against *even* his speed. That's another manga fact you ignore.


Suigetsu didn't react to his shunshin. 
Juugo got wrecked.
Madara blocked A's punch, and came out unharmed. Thats why A was surprised.



> There are lots of facts which prove it was V2, but you still keep ignoring them. Alright.


I don't think you have any idea what V2 is.
Also for the last time, it wasn't his max shunshin because he was jumping not running.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 7, 2015)

> Nah, his hair doesn't look like this : [1]
> or this : [1]
> or this : [1]
> His shroud isn't amped in the scans you posted.



You clearly havent payed attention to what i've written up there. But anyway, here you go. Thick Raiton Armor and spikey hair. Right before attacking Madara. 





> Not if he can't keep his foot on the ground and gain momentum. Leaping =/= running and accelerating.



Run a big distance, maintain fast speed and jump. You wont slow down immediately. In fact, your speed will be the same for some short time period after jumping. There were lots of places good for jumping.



> I explained why it isn't V2, or why it can't be his max shunshin.
> You are basically ignoring manga and everything I said here.



That "explanation" was countered.

You are the one ignoring manga facts here.



> Suigetsu didn't react to his shunshin.
> Juugo got wrecked.
> Madara blocked A's punch, and came out unharmed. Thats why A was surprised.



He reacted to his V1 punch, yes.

And Jugo reacted to his Shunshin.

However, Raikage wasnt surprised, at all. Like in a fight with Madara. 

And he said that Madara can guard himself against *even his speed*. 

His reaction to what Madara did, his cooperation with Onoki, his own words, his behavior, completely different from that in a fight with Sasuke, Edo Madara's capability to trace even lightened Ei's movements, Ei's V2 look right before attacking Madara - you can ignore all of this, plus some things i've pointed out up there, in this thread. However, it is pointless. 



> I don't think you have any idea what V2 is.
> Also for the last time, it wasn't his max shunshin because he was jumping not running.



Again - run some distance with your max speed and then jump. 



> And going by your logic, Madara guarding against his max speed shouldn't be impressive because he witnessed Naruto do something even more impressive(not just throwing his arms in the air but actually moving past him) an hour earlier.
> Actually you shot down your own argument here.



It should, because only 2 people (!) before Edo Madara could react to his V2 speed. So of course, Ei was surprised like that. I would have, if i were him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> You clearly havent payed attention to what i've written up there. But anyway, here you go. Thick Raiton Armor and spikey hair. Right before attacking Madara.


Its not the same as the scans I posted.
Also right after he attacked : [1]
just his regular V1.

It wasn't V2. Not that it matters, he couldn't have reached his max speed by jumping anyways, it is not physicaly possible.



> Run a big distance, maintain fast speed and jump. You wont slow down immediately. In fact, your speed will be the same for some short time period after jumping. There were lots of places good for jumping.


The moment you stop accelerating, you start to slow down. That is physics 101. Gravity and air/ground friction. 

The distance he charged towards Minato/Naruto was much shorter, the distance where he dodged Amaterasu was much shorter. 
The angle he approached Madara is from above, which means he jumped high from a greater distance. So not only he went at Madara at a slower speed, but from a greater distance as well. 
With that in mind, what Madara did isn't remotely as impressive as what Minato did.



> That "explanation" was countered.
> 
> You are the one ignoring manga facts here.


Like I said, you closing eyes and ears and repeating the same thing over and over again isn't actually a counter. It is like you are wrong X the number of times you repeat the same thing.



> He reacted to his V1 punch, yes.


Suigetsu never reacted to V1 anything. A appeared infront of Sasuke, talked and then brought down his fist. Thats when Suigetsu reacted, to a punch which had nothing to do with A's shunshin which wasn't even directed at him.



> And Jugo reacted to his Shunshin.
> 
> However, Raikage wasnt surprised, at all. Like in a fight with Madara.


Like I said, Juugo was wrecked. What exactly is there to surprise A ? 



> And he said that Madara can guard himself against *even his speed*.


And Tsunade said "Naruto can keep up with Raikage's speed." 



> His reaction to what Madara did, his cooperation with Onoki, his own words, his behavior, completely different from that in a fight with Sasuke, Edo Madara's capability to trace even lightened Ei's movements, Ei's V2 look right before attacking Madara - you can ignore all of this, plus some things i've pointed out up there, in this thread. However, it is pointless.



I have already proven that A wasn't in V2. *Even if he was** it wasn't his max speed.*
His words actually correlate with my argument, he says "I have to up that speed." Meaning going faster was within his capability. Meaining it wasn't his maximum speed.
Why are we even debating this ? 


Being stubborn won't get you anywhere, you already lost.




> Again - run some distance with your max speed and then jump.


Again, not the same thing.



> It should, because only 2 people (!) before Edo Madara could react to his V2 speed. So of course, Ei was surprised like that. I would have, if i were him.


And there are also only a handful of people who were able to guard against his V1.

I also think A would be surprised more if he could take down Uchiha motherfucking Madara with a single hit.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 7, 2015)

Tsuande and Ohonki told Ri to buy time, not one shot Madara. Ei knew he wasn't supposed to going to defeat Madara, he was only trying to hold him back for a bit until both Tsuande and ohnoki had recovered. So I don't see why he'd use his top speed.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 7, 2015)

> Its not the same as the scans I posted.
> Also right after he attacked : He manifested a makeshift Bijūdama Rasenshuriken out of _a regular Tailed Beast Ball_
> just his regular V1.
> 
> It wasn't V2. Not that it matters, he couldn't have reached his max speed by jumping anyways, it is not physicaly possible.



It was V2. You should open your ayes and look at the scans.

And yeah - what's the point to waste his chakra even further when V2 was ineffective?

His top speed maintained for some time after he jumped. That is physically possible, especially considering the level of his speed in V2.



> The moment you stop accelerating, you start to slow down. That is physics 101. Gravity and air/ground friction.
> 
> The distance he charged towards Minato/Naruto was much shorter, the distance where he dodged Amaterasu was much shorter.
> The angle he approached Madara is from above, which means he jumped high from a greater distance. So not only he went at Madara at a slower speed, but from a greater distance as well.
> With that in mind, what Madara did isn't remotely as impressive as what Minato did.



You dont slow down emmideately and maintain your speed for some time. Here, we are talking about Ei and his V2. Plus, lots of good places to jump on for Raikage to quickly reach Madara. Your arguement is baseless, to be honest.

Much shorter? That is another baseless claim of yours.

There were lots of wood above the ground from which he could jump. Madara used mokuton before that. 

And yes - it was his V2 Shunshin. Too many things contradicting your claims.



> Like I said, you closing eyes and ears and repeating the same thing over and over again isn't actually a counter. It is like you are wrong X the number of times you repeat the same thing.



Closing ayes and ears?

There is a scan with Ei clearly being in his V2 Raiton Armor which you ignore. There is Ei's own words about Madara being able to guard himself against even his speed which you ignore. There is Ei's behavior clearly different from his previous behavior, in a fight with Sasuke (where he just activated his max shroud). There is Ei's cooperation with Onoki, which is completely irrational, considering Onoki's capability of performing one of the best offencive techniques - Jinton. There is Madara's hype, due to which Ei would have used V2, if he used it as soon as Sasuke, a "brat", used his Mangekyou. And some other things on top of that. Which you ignore.

As i said before - you are the one who ignores manga facts. 



> Suigetsu never reacted to V1 anything. A appeared infront of Sasuke, talked and then brought down his fist. Thats when Suigetsu reacted, to a punch which had nothing to do with A's shunshin which wasn't even directed at him.



Brought down his fist (attacked), amped by V1 RCM. But yeah - it wasnt a Shunshin. I agree.



> Like I said, Juugo was wrecked. What exactly is there to surprise A ?



He reacted to Ei's Shunshin. Sasuke did that too. But Ei was surprised by Sasuke's performance not in the same way as in a fight with Madara. Take a look at Ei's words.



> And Tsunade said "Naruto can keep up with Raikage's speed."



"*Even* my speed". Yeah, that's one of the things in your ignore list.

How does her words refute anything i've written?



> I have already proven that A wasn't in V2. Even if he was it wasn't his max speed.
> His words actually correlate with my argument, he says "I have to up that speed." Meaning going faster was within his capability. Meaining it wasn't his maximum speed.
> Why are we even debating this ?
> 
> ...



You clearly proved nothing up to this moment.

"I've got to up my speed"... Through Onoki's help? Remember that Ei havent tried to attack Madara right after that punch? Remember that he attacked Madara only after Onoki started to make him lighter?



> Again, not the same thing.



His speed level? Lots of high mokuton jumping points? *Yeah...* 



> And there are also only a handful of people who were able to guard against his V1.
> 
> I also think A would be surprised more if he could take down Uchiha motherfucking Madara with a single hit.



Havent refute my words by this. 

The kind of surprise with V1 reacting was different. Many people were capable of reacting to it.

But to V2? Only Minato and Naruto could react to his V2 before that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It was V2. You should open your ayes and look at the scans.
> 
> And yeah - what's the point to waste his chakra even further when V2 was ineffective?
> 
> ...




I am losting interest as you are doing nothing but repeating your already refuted points.

Lets sum this up :

1 - A wasn't in V2, scans clearly show he was in V1. 
2 - He jumped @ Madara, meaning it wasn't his fastest speed, even if he was in V2.
3 - Distance isn't something you can discard. Check location of A vs Madara and compare it to Minato vs A. Minato and A are 5-8 meters apart where the distance between Madara and A is 15+ meters. Twice the distance = twice the time required to react. Combine that with the fact that A not being able to go @ his fastest, you'll come to realize that two feats aren't even comparable.
4 - A never mentioned anything about Onoki's assistance when he said "*I have got to up that speed*." He said *"I."* Also Onoki told them about his "plan" after that instance. So unless you think A read Onoki's mind, he had no idea about what Onoki would propose to do.
Final proof that* it was within A's capability to go faster.*

I think we are done here now.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am losting interest as you are doing nothing but repeating your already refuted points.
> 
> Lets sum this up :
> 
> ...



The difference between us is - unlike you, i repeat points which havent been refuted. 

1. I've already refuted this one.
2. I've already refuted this one.
3. Yeah - and Madara was dodging Mei's Lava Release at that moment. Plus, Madara blocked that punch when Ei's fist was at point-blank range from his face. He put up his hands up to block when Ei's fist was few inches from his face.
4. Yet he never attacked Madara before Onoki made up his plan and he had nothing against Onoki cooperating with him, making him lighter. The thing is - that doesnt make sense. Because Onoki's cooperation with Ei prevent him from using Jinton. And Ei knew about Onoki's ability to make things lighter. To cry out loud such a thing makes sense, when he also has to cooperate with other Kage. Plus, even lightened Ei was traced by Edo Madara. If he could become faster, like in a fight with Sasuke, he would have done that and attacked Madara. 

Yeah - i think we are. It was V2.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 8, 2015)

> 1 - A wasn't in V2, scans clearly show he was in V1.


What are you talking about? His hair is spiked in the panel he posted.

Your follow back was his hair wasn't spikey after his full speed punch had concluded.

That's not a counter, at all. His shunshin had already completed, he wasn't in V2 after the punch. He may or may not have amped his shunshin again to attack Madara on the ground (V2). 

That's all there is to it.

If you want more supporting evidence:

Ei directly stated Madara guarded against "his speed", he had no reason not to to go V2, and if he'd been in V1 he wouldn't have bothered making that statement, just as he didn't make the statement "you guarded against even my speed" when V1 failed against MS Sasuke and KCM Naruto, because it's not that surprising if someone reacts to his lower level speed. 

All this pales in comparison to the fact that Ei only targets the head of an opponent with a fist when he is in V2 (against KCM Naruto & Minato, and, yes, Edo Madara), he calls this his fastest punch. It's a signature technique, Kishimoto literally goes as far as to draw his fist near the opponent's face- every time he attempts this technique.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2015)

^
I've refuted all of that one by one. Read/re-read my posts.

@ startwanderer, I'm done. You are in complete denial, scans clearly show he wasn't in V2(shroud looks standart conpared to every scan I posted). And you have nothing to say against my argument anyways. You are taking huge leaps in logic, equating jumping to running, discarding the difference in distance, claiming A read Onoki's mind and knew his plan, despite mentioning nothing about it, etc.

You have literally nothing to back up anything you've said so far.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 8, 2015)

People still debating with Mr star guy lol. I never waste my time with such a person anymore. Never listens to a word you say, and when you counter his points, he just repeats them over and over and pretends you haven't countered.

He's a troll, it's obvious by now. Just a complete waste of time.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> I've refuted all of that one by one. Read/re-read my posts.
> 
> @ startwanderer, I'm done. You are in complete denial, scans clearly show he wasn't in V2(shroud looks standart conpared to every scan I posted). And you have nothing to say against my argument anyways. You are taking huge leaps in logic, equating jumping to running, discarding the difference in distance, claiming A read Onoki's mind and knew his plan, despite mentioning nothing about it, etc.
> ...



This is not V2? Are you blind or something?



All of your arguements have been refuted. I was equating jumping to running? I just said that Ei's speed wont change right after the jump. He will be able to maintain his top speed for some time. Hell - run 20 meters and jump. There were lots of jumping points right there (wood) The difference in distance? Madara reacted to his blitz only when his fist was few inches from Madara's face. He was fast enough to put up his hands when that fist almost hit him. He could physically and mentally react to Ei's V2 Shunshin. Claiming Ei read Onoki's mind and knew his plan? What are you talking about? Ei cried out loud because he had to cooperate with other Kage and because he knew about Onoki's ability to make things lighter. Remember the fact that he never attacked Madara again before cooperating with Onoki? 

I have lots of things to back up my claims. Read what i wrote above. 



> People still debating with Mr star guy lol. I never waste my time with such a person anymore. Never listens to a word you say, and when you counter his points, he just repeats them over and over and pretends you haven't countered.
> 
> He's a troll, it's obvious by now. Just a complete waste of time.



The thing is - he refuted nothing in this debate. He cant even look at the scan i provided earlier. He is a troll and it is obvious by now.


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## LostSelf (Sep 8, 2015)

Actually, Ei might've been in V2. Looking at his fight with Sasuke, i noticed some differences between his V1 in Sasuke's fight, and SW's (StarWanderer) scan. One is the spiky hair. It's clearly up, when he used against Sasuke, his hair is normal:



Not even looking him from this angle the spiky hair is not comparable to the one SW provided:



Another comparable thing are the lines of his hair. They look curvy, even if in some head angles the back of his hair is seen (still not comparable), the line are way more curvy than in V2. 





However, some things are doubtful and can contribute to say that Ei was in V1. The first one is Mei keeping up with his movements. But that could be discarded because Onoki could shift Ei from light to heavy in time for him to strike.

The second is Ei claiming he needs to amp his speed. There's no way he could know that Onoki had a plan. Unless he has seen Onoki in action before and knew he would amp his speed. But i wouldn't be so sure of him knowing Onoki's plan.

But it's hard to not see Ei going all out against Madara.  His hair looked the same when he was fighting the Susano'o clones. And i wouldn't say he was in V1 all the time against Madara, after seeing how powerful he is. That would be very dumb of his part.

And if he was V2 against the clones, and they could keep up with Ei to the point of forcing him to block, then it wouldn't be a crazy idea to assume that Edo Madara could, as well.

Dunno. I wouldn't call people crazy for believing he was V2. His hair looks like that.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 9, 2015)

> However, some things are doubtful and can contribute to say that Ei was in V1. The first one is Mei keeping up with his movements. But that could be discarded because Onoki could shift Ei from light to heavy in time for him to strike.



Mei wasnt keeping up with him - she was just spewing her Lava Release, that's all.



> The second is Ei claiming he needs to amp his speed. There's no way he could know that Onoki had a plan. Unless he has seen Onoki in action before and knew he would amp his speed. But i wouldn't be so sure of him knowing Onoki's plan.



I dont remember Onoki explaining his plan to other Kage. Mizukage could use her mist to cloud Rinnegan's field of view because she knew about Madara's ayes (hell, Sharingan and Rinnegan are legendary dodjutsu's famous throughout the whole shinobi world at the time) and wanted to give Onoki and Ei an opportunity to fulfill Onoki's plan. And i dont remember any surprise on Ei's face when Onoki made him lighter.

Also, there is 2 things i want to capitalise on:

1. In his fight with Sasuke, when he could amp his speed to V2, he just did that and attacked. He never attacked Madara after that V2 blitz on his own. But if it was V1, what's the problem? Ei amps his Shunshin to V2 and attacks him. But he never did that.
2. Ei's own words... He said that he's got to up his speed... But does that mean on his own and not through others? Giving his behaviour after that, the fact he said "you can guard yourself against *even* my speed" and a scan where he is obviously in V2 (i'll post it below), well, i think he said that in order for other Kage to up his speed somehow.  Especially when there were Onoki and Tsunade with her huge chakra reserves and Byakugou seal.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, Ei might've been in V2. Looking at his fight with Sasuke, i noticed some differences between his V1 in Sasuke's fight, and SW's (StarWanderer) scan. One is the spiky hair. It's clearly up, when he used against Sasuke, his hair is normal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think thats the initial activation of raiton shroud that makes his hair lift up a little. But as you can notice, in other scans of V2, his hair is almost completely up, it is clearly different.

And another  and hopefully final evidence : [6]
Even after he completed his shunshin, his hair is still spikiy.

Against Naruto : [6]
[6]
His hair is spkiy during and after his attack 

Against Madara : [6]
Clearly it is V1.

And yes, he says "I have to up that speed." If it was his max speed, then how could he up his speed ? 

There are 3 arguments that confirm it wasn't A's max speed.

1 - Visually, it clearly isn't V2. Compared to the other scans of him where he was using it.
2 - He says he can up his speed. Clearly he wouldn't be able to if it was his max speed.
3 - Physically, it is impossible for him to be @ his max speed because he jumped at Madara, instead of Shunshin'ing directly @ him.


But I'm pretty sure these evidences will be ignored, like the rest of them I(and some others) have been presenting for the last 4 pages.


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## LostSelf (Sep 9, 2015)

I haven't read 4 pages of this debate.

There's something ilogical here, and not the arguments. It's Ei attacking Madara with Onoki... Still in what would be V1. 



Why the fuck would Ei just use V1 in that part? Why the need of holding back V2 so much, when he freely used it against Naruto (Something funny is that when Ei used it against Minato his hair looked like V1. Unless that headband were tight enough)?

In fact, Kishi is inconsistent drawing Ei's hair between modes. Like here. One panel V1, next panel V2 like.



Next page V1 like:


*Spoiler*: __ 








If he was in V2 when he was lightened, then we could say it was an inconsistency of Kishi's part. If he was still in V1 where he was lightened, it means Ei was kind of... dumb and was refusing, for some reason, to use his top-speed against the strongest man he ever faced, with the world in complete danger, but yet, was willing to use it against kids (Naruto - Sasuke and kind of Minato).

You tell me.

About the jumping part: Rock Lee didn't look like he was slowed down when he was hitting Gaara in mid-air, though. Gaara still couldn't react. However, we could say he would still be faster in the floor.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I haven't read 4 pages of this debate.
> 
> There's something ilogical here, and not the arguments. It's Ei attacking Madara with Onoki... Still in what would be V1.
> 
> ...



I think the part with Onoki is just an inconsistency(whether A was in V1 or V2). Because it doesn't make any sense for Onoki to keep up with A's speed if he was actually going faster than V2. That would suggest that Onoki's naked reaction speed is on par with A's V2. 




> About the jumping part: Rock Lee didn't look like he was slowed down when he was hitting Gaara in mid-air, though. Gaara still couldn't react. However, we could say he would still be faster in the floor.



I think Lee was constantly jumping from one surface to the other to keep his momentum going and hitting Gaara between those leaps. 
Also Lee and Gai don't rely on shunshin to maintain their speed. Gates are a bit more "magical." And yes, he would be faster on the ground, iff he can maintain such speed with just jumping.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 9, 2015)

Eis hair was in v2 against Minato. People need to open and use their eyes, the headband doesn't stop you from seeing that his hair strands are flying up outta control. Not sure how anyone can say it's v1.


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## LostSelf (Sep 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think the part with Onoki is just an inconsistency(whether A was in V1 or V2). Because it doesn't make any sense for Onoki to keep up with A's speed if he was actually going faster than V2. That would suggest that Onoki's naked reaction speed is on par with A's V2.



Yes. However, him looking like V1 when he attacked Madara could've been an inconsistency too. I'm not affirming it. Just defending both points of view.

However, that would just keep the question. Why would Ei be so stubborn in order to do so? Ei amped his speed to take on Madara there. Onoki should've reacted  to that fairly.

However, i attribute this to Kishi not caring much when it comes to teamwork. Because Ei, as well, was seeing inside the mist while Madara couldn't. Things like that.



> I think Lee was constantly jumping from one surface to the other to keep his momentum going and hitting Gaara between those leaps.
> Also Lee and Gai don't rely on shunshin to maintain their speed. Gates are a bit more "magical." And yes, he would be faster on the ground, iff he can maintain such speed with just jumping.



In some parts it looked like Lee was kicking out the air, though. Something not much of a surprise, considering that 6th gated Gai did it without the 8th.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Eis hair was in v2 against Minato. People need to open and use their eyes, the headband doesn't stop you from seeing that his hair strands are flying up outta control. Not sure how anyone can say it's v1.



Shit, Ei. Calm those hairs flying all over!


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 9, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes. However, him looking like V1 when he attacked Madara could've been an inconsistency too. I'm not affirming it. Just defending both points of view.
> 
> However, that would just keep the question. Why would Ei be so stubborn in order to do so? Ei amped his speed to take on Madara there. Onoki should've reacted  to that fairly.
> 
> ...


Wasn't talking about that page


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## LostSelf (Sep 9, 2015)

I know. Also, i'm not saying Ei wasn't in V2 against Minato. I actually agree with it.

Just saying that Kishi has been inconsistent with showing Ei's hair sometimes in V1-V2. Like how he shifted Ei's hair in less than 5 panels.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

No one needs to use Ā's fucking hair as evidence of him using V2 or not.

The fact that he mentioned Madara blocking his speed as if it's impressive when nigh-fodder have managed it and he didn't say a damn thing even once is evidence enough.

When Naruto dodged his V2, he commented on it. When Minato dodged his V2, he called him the fastest shinobi. So when he comments on Madara blocking a certain speed, _what the fuck do you think it is?_


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 9, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> No one needs to use Ā's fucking hair as evidence of him using V2 or not.
> 
> The fact that he mentioned Madara blocking his speed as if it's impressive when nigh-fodder have managed it and he didn't say a damn thing even once is evidence enough.
> 
> When Naruto dodged his V2, he commented on it. When Minato dodged his V2, he called him the fastest shinobi. So when he comments on Madara blocking a certain speed, _what the fuck do you think it is?_



Einnever said madara blocked his "Top" speed. So try again. Against Minato and against Naruto, he made damn well sure to clarify thst it was his top speed.

Ei said madara is able to react to his speed. Same way/same context tduande and cee were surprised others were able to keep up with Eis speed. 

Then the main point that puts to rest all of this speculation is the fact that Ei down right states that he needs to up his speed for more power. His top speed means there is no upping the speed, yet Ei said it as if next time he will attack madara with even more speed. And that was before Ei and Ohnoki came up with their strategy.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Einnever said madara blocked his "Top" speed. So try again. Against Minato and against Naruto, he made damn well sure to clarify thst it was his top speed.
> 
> Ei said madara is able to react to his speed. Same way/same context tduande and cee were surprised others were able to keep up with Eis speed.
> 
> Then the main point that puts to rest all of this speculation is the fact that Ei down right states that he needs to up his speed for more power. His top speed means there is no upping the speed, yet Ei said it as if next time he will attack madara with even more speed. And that was before Ei and Ohnoki came up with their strategy.



If Usain Bolt goes jogging, and sees a random fuck sprint past him, do you think Usain would be surprised and go, "wow, he's faster than even my speed?"

No? Because the _even_ in Ā's words implies he went all-out. If he was holding back, why even make such a statement? No one says something like that if they're not even close to their best.

Tsunade and C were surprised because they've likely never seen someone react to V1 Ā before. More importantly, they're not Ā. Their reactions are meaningless. Bottom-line is, Ā doesn't find it noteworthy to mention when people react to, even *outmaneuvered* his V1 speed. Yet, he does when people react to his V2.

So which one do you think it was for Madara? Do you think he was holding back against one of the strongest shinobi of all time?

Didn't think so.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes. However, him looking like V1 when he attacked Madara could've been an inconsistency too. I'm not affirming it. Just defending both points of view.
> 
> However, that would just keep the question. Why would Ei be so stubborn in order to do so? Ei amped his speed to take on Madara there. Onoki should've reacted  to that fairly.
> 
> However, i attribute this to Kishi not caring much when it comes to teamwork. Because Ei, as well, was seeing inside the mist while Madara couldn't. Things like that.




The thing is, even in the first scan, A doesn't look like he is in V2. Compare that to : first scan
or : 
first scan

His hair isn't spiky enough to be labeled as his amped up shroud.

Its like you have 6 and you are trying to rounding it up to 10 instead of 5.

And we see A right after that scan from multiple angles in multiple panels, it just seems like his regular shroud.
And he himself admits that he needs to up his speed.

As for why he looks like he is in V1 with Onoki, thats probably because Kishimoto didn't care because it was team work. The emphasis of that bit was onoki decreasing and increasing his weight at the right moment.



> In some parts it looked like Lee was kicking out the air, though. Something not much of a surprise, considering that 6th gated Gai did it without the 8th.


Could be, but as long as they have a foothold they can maintain a certain speed. Kicking the air is kinda bullshit and so far it seems as if only Lee and Gai did it.
I wouldn't grant that ability to Raikage.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 10, 2015)

> I think thats the initial activation of raiton shroud that makes his hair lift up a little. But as you can notice, in other scans of V2, his hair is almost completely up, it is clearly different.
> 
> And another and hopefully final evidence : Countered b 1
> Even after he completed his shunshin, his hair is still spikiy.
> ...





I've countered all of these earlier in this thread, yet you are using those countered arguements again. It seems you havent payed much of attention to what i've wrote here.

And in the scan with spikey hair i provided, it is clear it was V2. His "inside" hair cant be visible because of that spikey hair you can see in the scan. And his Raiton is thick as well.

It was V2.



> I haven't read 4 pages of this debate.
> 
> There's something ilogical here, and not the arguments. It's Ei attacking Madara with Onoki... Still in what would be V1.
> 
> ...



What's the point to use lots of chakra against much slower and weaker Muu?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2015)

I've said everything that needs to be said about the matter, especially to you.

You still haven't explaiend why his hair looks different than the times when he used V2 against Sasuke and Naruto.
You still haven't explained how jumping would allow him to reach his max speed.
You still haven't explained how A can mention increasing his speed if that was actually his max speed.
You still haven't explained how can the massive difference in distance between Minato and A and Madara and A doesn't factor in.

Try to adress these holes in your argument and then try to create the same thread and maybe there will be a room for a debate.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I've said everything that needs to be said about the matter, especially to you.
> 
> You still haven't explaiend why his hair looks different than the times when he used V2 against Sasuke and Naruto.
> You still haven't explained how jumping would allow him to reach his max speed.
> ...



1. His hair is pretty much up in the scan i brought here. I dont think Kishimoto bothered drawing it exactly the same as in Raikage's previous V2 showings. If it wasnt V2 because of very little differences (and it looks a little bit differently then some of his v2 showings) then dont you think that Ei's hair was different when he fought Naruto then when he fought Sasuke? 

What do you think about this scan?



About this scan?

*Spoiler*: __ 








Was it v2 or not?

Now take a look at this scan.



You can also look closer at this scan.



And now it's time for Sasuke's fight.







In simple words - you have lost this debate already. It was V2. But i bet you'll continue to troll around.

2. Jumping wont, however, there were lots of jumping points out there and Raikage can keep his max speed for few moments after jumping. You can run 20 meters and then jump on a great distance. At first, the speed wont change, but you'll start to slow down later and land on the ground. I've explained that earlier, but you simply ignored me.

You have no proof that Raikage's jump at that moment had such an affect on his max Shunshin that it was not longer V2 speed level.

3. Increase his speed through Onoki's help, and crying out loud like that because he had to cooperate with other Kage in that fight. You havent explained why he never attacked Madara after that blitz by himself and why even lightened Ei's movements were traced by Madara. You also havent explained why he had such a surprise and said that Madara can guard himself against *even* his speed. In a fight with Sasuke, he behaved himself differently. You should read manga more attentively.

4. Because Madara never started to protect himself against Ei until the moment when his fist was few inches from Madara's face. Only then he reacted to Ei. Plus, he was dodging Mei's Lava Release at that moment.

Try to not troll in The Battledome, ok?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 1. His hair is pretty much up in the scan i brought here. I dont think Kishimoto bothered drawing it exactly the same as in Raikage's previous V2 showings. If it wasnt V2 because of very little differences (and it looks a little bit differently then some of his v2 showings) then dont you think that Ei's hair was different when he fought Naruto then when he fought Sasuke?
> 
> What do you think about this scan?
> 
> ...



Oh I have looked @ those very carefully. Your scan doesn't look like anything like the rest. It isn't "just a little bit" different. It is alot different. I think its about time you accepted that fact.

Also you deliberately ignore the following page where A is in his V1 where as in the rest of the instances his V2 state is maintained through out the whole attack.



> 2. Jumping wont, however, there were lots of jumping points out there and Raikage can keep his max speed for few moments after jumping. You can run 20 meters and then jump on a great distance. At first, the speed wont change, but you'll start to slow down later and land on the ground. I've explained that earlier, but you simply ignored me.
> 
> You have no proof that Raikage's jump at that moment had such an affect on his max Shunshin that it was not longer V2 speed level.



Even if Raikage jumped from one point to another till he reached Madara, he still wouldn't be able to reach his max shunshin speed. And the terrain doesn't support this. There aren't as many ledges close to Madara position and Mei's lava already covered any foot hold A would get next to Madara, so he must have jumped from far away.

One other thing you ignore(its pretty ironic you constantly accuse me of ignoring you whereas you look the otherway the moment you are presented with something you can't adress - in this case there are loads of them) is the fact that A came at Madara from above. If you notice, right after Madara gets hit, he falls down vertically inside Mei's lava. So A's trajectory leaves no room for him to be able to match his max speed.

But hey, this is the 4th or 5th time I've destroyed your argument now, and I am pretty sure you keep doing what you do the best. Repeat everything you said once more, right ? 



> 3. Increase his speed through Onoki's help,


I repeat, A said "* I* have got to increase that speed."
Onoki was never a part of the equation. 
Onoki told them about the plan afterwards.
You would only be right if Onoki told them about the plan and then later on A mentioned increasing his speed. But what happened here was the complete opposite. 
In otherwords, A was actually thinking about going faster himself.



> and crying out loud like that because he had to cooperate with other Kage in that fight. You havent explained why he never attacked Madara after that blitz by himself and why even lightened Ei's movements were traced by Madara.


Because Onoki came up with a plan, A didn't get the opportunity to for a second initiation. Why would he ? Because actually Onoki's plan was more effective than A trying the same thing over and over again, especially after Madara activated his Susano'o and would tank anything A threw at him with ease.



> You also havent explained why he had such a surprise and said that Madara can guard himself against *even* his speed. In a fight with Sasuke, he behaved himself differently. You should read manga more attentively.


Maybe he didn't expect Madara to be able to do anything in mid air ? Or maybe he didn't expect him to guard himself with his bare hands ?  I think thats the most impressive bit about it. 



> 4. Because Madara never started to protect himself against Ei until the moment when his fist was few inches from Madara's face. Only then he reacted to Ei. Plus, he was dodging Mei's Lava Release at that moment.



A still had to cross a greater distance to reach Madara, and unless Madara was completely unaware of A's presence, that means he still had more time to react.
You could say that Mei's attack may have distracted him, but I wouldn't say it played a huge role considering Sasuke could dodge it with no effort when Mei attempted to struck him from behind in the summit.



> Try to not troll in The Battledome, ok?


If by trolling you mean destroying your arguments full of holes, then I can't promise anything. But I sure will try.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 10, 2015)

> Oh I have looked @ those very carefully. Your scan doesn't look like anything like the rest. It isn't "just a little bit" different. It is alot different. I think its about time you accepted that fact.
> 
> Also you deliberately ignore the following page where A is in his V1 where as in the rest of the instances his V2 state is maintained through out the whole attack.



You cant be 100% sure that in the following page, his hair wasnt spikey, due to the angle from which he is visible, the fact his hair moves when he moves and the fact Madara slowed him down as soon as he blocked his punch.

As for the scan you looked at - you do realise that Kishimoto isnt very consistent in his drawings, right? I can say that in a fight with Sasuke, it wasnt V2, because his hair there is different from the hair he had in a fight with Naruto.

Also, you dont count the fact that, in that page, Ei wasnt drawn closely, to see his head in the angle like in a fight with Sasuke, or Naruto.

His hair was spikey, his Raiton was very thick - in fact, even thicker than here.



Using drawing inconsistencies as an arguement was a bad idea.



> Even if Raikage jumped from one point to another till he reached Madara, he still wouldn't be able to reach his max shunshin speed. And the terrain doesn't support this. There aren't as many ledges close to Madara position and Mei's lava already covered any foot hold A would get next to Madara, so he must have jumped from far away.
> 
> One other thing you ignore(its pretty ironic you constantly accuse me of ignoring you whereas you look the otherway the moment you are presented with something you can't adress - in this case there are loads of them) is the fact that A came at Madara from above. If you notice, right after Madara gets hit, he falls down vertically inside Mei's lava. So A's trajectory leaves no room for him to be able to match his max speed.
> 
> But hey, this is the 4th or 5th time I've destroyed your argument now, and I am pretty sure you keep doing what you do the best. Repeat everything you said once more, right ?



You do realise that the distance between Madara and Raikage when he jumped could very well be very short, right? You do realise that, in that case, Madara blocked his punch when Raikage still had his max speed, right? You do realise that, with his speed level, he can retain his speed for some time after jumping, right?

Any foot hold? Realy? In fact, he had foot holds to capitalise on. Re-read that chapter.

If you look at it closely, then you''ll see that he is not falling completely vertically. And with his level of speed, he must be so fast that his speed level remains the same for some time after jumping.

You havent destroyed anything up to this moment. You just keep trolling again, and again, and again.



> I repeat, A said " I have got to increase that speed."
> Onoki was never a part of the equation.
> Onoki told them about the plan afterwards.
> You would only be right if Onoki told them about the plan and then later on A mentioned increasing his speed. But what happened here was the complete opposite.
> In otherwords, A was actually thinking about going faster himself.



That's why he never did that before cooperating with Onoki, right? That's why he behaved himself differently from his fight with Sasuke, where he just activated V2 as soon as he saw Mangekyou, right? "I've got to up my speed", with Kage's help, right? 

And we havent seen Onoki telling his comrades about his plan. That is an assumption of yours.

You will ask, how did the cooperate like that? I've already explained, how. Earlier.



> Because Onoki came up with a plan, A didn't get the opportunity to for a second initiation. Why would he ? Because actually Onoki's plan was more effective than A trying the same thing over and over again, especially after Madara activated his Susano'o and would tank anything A threw at him with ease.



Which he never told them about, in details. And Ei had enough time to turn his "higher speed", like in a fight with Sasuke, or Naruto, so he can crack Susanoo ribs with V2, like in a fight with Sasuke.. But he never did that. Because his V2 Shunshin has been used already. 



> Maybe he didn't expect Madara to be able to do anything in mid air ? Or maybe he didn't expect him to guard himself with his bare hands ? I think thats the most impressive bit about it.



Yeah - it is impossible to put your hands up while being in the air, you know. 

And he said "even my speed". He never said "you are so durable that you can block my punch with your bare hands", for example.



> A still had to cross a greater distance to reach Madara, and unless Madara was completely unaware of A's presence, that means he still had more time to react.
> You could say that Mei's attack may have distracted him, but I wouldn't say it played a huge role considering Sasuke could dodge it with no effort when Mei attempted to struck him from behind in the summit.



Mei's Lava Release was bigger during her fight with Madara. And you didnt refute my point with this. Madara put his hands in front of Ei's fist when it was few inches from his face. That means he reacted to his V2 punch mentally and physically as well, when it was few inches from him. It doesnt matter how big the distance was. 



> If by trolling you mean destroying your arguments full of holes, then I can't promise anything. But I sure will try.



By trolling i mean ignoring manga and common sense in order to troll, which you often do in the Battledome.

And i have a quastion for you - why he shouldnt use V2 against Madara, when he used it against Sasuke and Naruto?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 11, 2015)

So your argument is "Kishimoto's drawing is inconsistent, so I'll interpret it the way I see fit." News flash, that is not an argument.

And you are saying that A is a mind reader(he knew about Onoki's plan before Onoki told them about it) and was actually thiking about Onoki when he said " I " 

Already proved that there wasn't a foot hold near Madara's vicinity, the closest one was below him which was covered with Mei's lava. A came from above, that means he literally jumped towards Madara.

Correction : Madara put his hands infront A's fist when it was a few inches from his face because that was the time it took for him to react. Same goes for Minato and Naruto. It doesn't change the fact that A was further away from Madara and Madara had more time to react than both Minato and Naruto. 

Anyways, I'm done here.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 11, 2015)

> So your argument is "Kishimoto's drawing is inconsistent, so I'll interpret it the way I see fit." News flash, that is not an argument.



What you've written is not an arguement. And that "arguement" can be very well used against you, because Ei's Raiton Armor in that scan is actually thicker than V2 armor which he used against Sasuke. Take a closer look at those scans.

As for his hair - he was drawn in a different angle. In Naruto's and Sasuke's case, he was drawn "closer" to the reader, to the point when you can see his whole head. But nevertheless, his hair was spikey and his Raiton armor was very thick. His hair gets spikey *only* when he is pumping himself with chakra to the point when he is a tailed beast level.

And there are differences between his hair in Sasuke's and Naruto's case. A very well visible differences.



> And you are saying that A is a mind reader(he knew about Onoki's plan before Onoki told them about it) and was actually thiking about Onoki when he said " I "



He knew about Onoki's ability to make things lighter. Plus, there was Tsunade, with her Senju chakra reserves. He never attacked Madara before cooperating with Onoki and he said "*even my speed*". If he could up his speed, like in a fight with Sasuke, then why he never did that? It is in his character to activate V2 and attack Madara by himself, but he never did that. 



> Already proved that there wasn't a foot hold near Madara's vicinity, the closest one was below him which was covered with Mei's lava. A came from above, that means he literally jumped towards Madara.



There were foot holds on the left. And there were wood branches which werent covered in Mei's Lava. Your arguement is countered by the very simple thing - due to his speed level, he can maintain his V2 level speed after jumping for some time. 



> Correction : Madara put his hands infront A's fist when it was a few inches from his face because that was the time it took for him to react. Same goes for Minato and Naruto. It doesn't change the fact that A was further away from Madara and Madara had more time to react than both Minato and Naruto.



It doesnt make sense. If he could put his hands in front of Ei's fist when it was few inches from him, then he could mentally react to his punch. Also, Minato used space-time ninjutsu to dodge his punch. Madara reacted to his punch with pure physical speed. And the distance was not much bigger. It was a little bit bigger.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 26, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> @StarWandered
> 
> Look at your own thread :
> 
> ...



First of all, i dont care about the opinions of majority. If i can back up my words with proofs, arguements etc, then i dont care about other's opinions until someone managed to refute what i wrote.

Second, you should re-read this thread, attentively. Every post.


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## Icegaze (Sep 26, 2015)

counter being compared to blocking


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## HunterxH (Sep 26, 2015)

It wasn't V2. Not sure who the OP is or what his agenda is but I'm sorry to break it to you.

1) He never said Madara reacted to his "top" speed, a distinction he had made clear for Naruto and Minato.

2) He said that he'd have to "up" his speed after he punched Madara.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2015)

HunterxH said:


> It wasn't V2. Not sure who the OP is or what his agenda is but I'm sorry to break it to you.
> 
> 1) He never said Madara reacted to his "top" speed, a distinction he had made clear for Naruto and Minato.
> 
> 2) He said that he'd have to "up" his speed after he punched Madara.



1) He said that Madara could guard himself against *even* his speed.

2) He said "i've got to up the speed", he didnt say that "i have to up my speed", or that "i will up my speed". And after that, Onoki appears to solve his dillema. 

Also, it seems you dont care about lots of other details in that confrontation. Is this V1?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 27, 2015)

StarWanderer, you don't have to reply to everyone who disagrees that it was V2. 

You've made your points clear by this point, in several threads I might add, and those in agreement have made the same points. You are in the majority, it's not your job to convince them. 

Stop letting them bait you, they literally all have the same argument.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> StarWanderer, you don't have to reply to everyone who disagrees that it was V2.
> 
> You've made your points clear by this point, in several threads I might add, and those in agreement have made the same points. You are in the majority, it's not your job to convince them.
> 
> Stop letting them bait you, they literally all have the same argument.



Alright, that makes sense.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2015)

You two are best buddies now aren't you ? 


You know your argument is worthless when Dawiz is the only one supporting it.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You two are best buddies now aren't you ?
> 
> 
> You know your argument is worthless when Dawiz is the only one supporting it.


I'll leave this here


This being the post you didn't reply to in a separate thread.

Remain in the minority, along with the other fanboys


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## Icegaze (Sep 28, 2015)

Rude davizwiz
U didn't mention that I am 50/50

In either case now tending towards 70/30 for V2 was used


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 28, 2015)

I did, in a separate thread:


I literally had to reply to two dudes with the list, both claiming StarWanderer was in the minority

hpcaptain's list had you as for V2, along with others who clearly weren't for it


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## Icegaze (Sep 28, 2015)

Nah clearly can't be in the minortiy 
However I would say it's silly to compare counter attacking to blocking regardless of how it was done 
A counter attack is obviously a better feat 

I think the thread is mostly dishonest . 

And seems to try and falsely highlight movement feat which really doesn't matter if u can strike without physically needing to move from point A to B or avoid 

One question if madara used susanoo to block would that be a lesser feat despite A still being blocked and if so why 

Clearly if he has time to put up his hands and doesn't need or want to use susanoo then he could have if he felt like It 

Unless one is to assume onoki Earth core shifting combined with naruto dropping a rasengan on you is faster or remotely close to A speed , cuz madara opted to block with susanoo there . Perhaps due to the fact that it was something he couldn't block with his hand 

What am going to say is Minato in that situation could have gotten behind naruto or simply appeared at onoki 

So how is that not a better feat and why would it be held in higher regard if he shunshin there ?

Clearly one would opt for hirashin if they can use it always where movement is concerned


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