# EMS Madara vs Fourth Raikage. Read OP!



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

*EMS Madara Uchiha vs Fourth Raikage Ei*.

This is a taijutsu match. 


*Restrictions*: EMS Madara can use *ONLY* taijutsu. Raikage Ei is all out, can use anything in his arsenal. Raikage has both his arms.

No nut hits, no aye-gouging, no hair pulling.


*Equipment*: Raikage has the same equipment he had during his fight with Sasuke. EMS Madara has no scythe, no gunbai and no armor.
*Knowledge*: anime.
*Battlefield*: indestructible UFC Octagon that is 50 times bigger than the everage UFC Octagon. There is Red Yang Formation around the Octagon, so no one can BFR opponent from Octagon.
*Starting Distance*: 45 meters.
*State of Mind*: want to beat each other. But both of them arent acting stupid. Ei isnt acting stupid in this fight as he did in his fight with Sasuke.

*5 rounds 20 minutes each! *

*Indestructible Big John Maccarthy our refery!*

*Win is by submission or knock out!*

LETS GET IT ON!


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## Euraj (Dec 20, 2014)

Madara catches him off guard a few times. His taijutsu strength makes no sense (like how he rolled over Sage Naruto in one panel). He has no feasible way to hurt Raikage in Raiton Chakra Mode though, and is eventually going to be caught and Liger Bombed.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 20, 2014)

He had hashirama empowerment at that point tho.

A goes max power shroud and decapitate madara whether he sees it in sharingan vision or not.


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## Ennoia (Dec 20, 2014)

The guy above me is right, without buffs Madara cant win this. I dont even think Madara can hurt A.


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## SSMG (Dec 20, 2014)

Madara stomps.

As a weaker Edo he already easily reacted and blocked Eis full speed so he should be able to do keep up and edge out the win.


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## Veracity (Dec 20, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> He had hashirama empowerment at that point tho.
> 
> A goes max power shroud and decapitate madara whether he sees it in sharingan vision or not.



He was never sage enhanced when he blitzed Sage Naruto and tossed him a ragdoll.

And that feat basically makes Madara far faster then the Sandaime( and by extension, close to Ay's speed) and gives him more physical power( far more) then the boss summon rhino that Pain Arc Naruto tossed into the clouds.


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## LostSelf (Dec 20, 2014)

Raikage grabs Madara by the neck and bitchslaps him until he passes out.


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## Alucardemi (Dec 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He was never sage enhanced when he blitzed Sage Naruto and tossed him a ragdoll.
> 
> And that feat basically makes Madara far faster then the Sandaime( and by extension, close to Ay's speed) and gives him more physical power( far more) then the boss summon rhino that Pain Arc Naruto tossed into the clouds.



This is true. Alive Madara's shunshin speed was damn ridiculous.


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Madara stomps.
> 
> As a weaker Edo he already easily reacted and blocked Eis full speed so he should be able to do keep up and edge out the win.



Weaker edo.....for someone to be upgraded beyond his prime given the rinnegan given hashiramas power...unlimited chakra and regen...he blocked v1 raikages punch hence raikage mentioning he needs to charge up his shroud and speed..here
here

he might catch raikage offguard a few times but he gets ligerbombed pretty quickly..


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## Trojan (Dec 21, 2014)

A fodderstomps low difficult. 

Madara stands no chance in taijutsu against him.



SSMG said:


> Madara stomps.
> 
> As a weaker Edo he already easily reacted and blocked Eis full speed so he should be able to do keep up and edge out the win.



BS. It was specifically stated that he's beyond his prime power.


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He was never sage enhanced when he blitzed Sage Naruto and tossed him a ragdoll.
> 
> And that feat basically makes Madara far faster then the Sandaime( and by extension, close to Ay's speed) and gives him more physical power( far more) then the boss summon rhino that Pain Arc Naruto tossed into the clouds.



He still had hashiramas dna ..enhancing his phyisical vitality strength endurance ect..he caught naruto offguard because he did not expect that from blind madara he blocked....are u joking naruto had set himself up to use his strength against the boss summon and utilized his lifting strength madara simply kicked a person weighing what 55 kg and pushing him back...he had no leverage to use his strength..


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## Veracity (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> He still had hashiramas dna ..enhancing his phyisical vitality strength endurance ect..he caught naruto offguard because he did not expect that from blind madara he blocked....are u joking naruto had set himself up to use his strength against the boss summon and utilized his lifting strength madara simply kicked a person weighing what 55 kg and pushing him back...he had no leverage to use his strength..



I'm not getting into any extensive debate here cause I don't have time.

But let me get at some key points here: 

1) show a single panel of Hashiramas DNA increasing anyone's speed or strength. It increased chakra , stamina and adds abilties. Never heard of a speed increase for Danzo lol. 

2) you cannot catch a perfect sage off guard , hence the reason Madara reacts to blindside FTG warps. Naruto was also staring him in his eyes. Caught off guard my ass 

3) Sage Mode for Naruto and Jirayia adds extra weight. Hence the reason Naruto collapse building sized shards just by landing on them, and hence the reason Jirayia creates craters landing .what does being light mean anyway when you are a physical powerhouse. Can Goku be tossed around cause he's light ? His leverage was his fucking feet. The same leverage he had against the rhino.

Not only this, but you have to be physically stronger then an individual to not only knock them over when they were aware of your intentions ; but to knock them airborne. Meaning Madara>> Sage Naruto >>>> Boss Rhino. So yeah.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> Weaker edo.....for someone to be upgraded beyond his prime given the rinnegan given hashiramas power...unlimited chakra and regen...he blocked v1 raikages punch hence raikage mentioning he needs to charge up his shroud and speed..here
> here
> 
> he might catch raikage offguard a few times but he gets ligerbombed pretty quickly..



Yes, *weaker* Edo. He has unlimited chakra, is immortal, but he is, overall, not as fast, strong, powerfull as he was alive. He cant use his full potential as Edo. He himself sayd he can fight with full strength after he had been ressurrected. And Kabuto's improvements have nothing to do with Madara's speed, since Edo Hashirama, weakened by clones, fought with him *on par* and *immobilised* him.

Rinnegan and Hashirama's DNA has nothing to do with speed and reflexes at all. Read the Manga.

And it was V2 Ei. Take a look at here: here

His hair is up. It was definetely V2. And he commented that Madara can counter him even with his full speed. Thats why he needed Oonoki to make him lighter. 

If you have a proof Rinnegan and Hashirama's DNA has anything to do with Madara's speed and reflexes, bring it here.



> A fodderstomps low difficult.
> 
> Madara stands no chance in taijutsu against him.



That is the most stupid comment i have ever seen here in this forum. But you will disagree. If so, back up your words with facts and feats with which we can suggest such a thing.

Anyway, Raikage is more durable, powerfull and has Liger Bomb. He withstood Jugo's point-blank blast. So its highly debatable if Madara can hurt him with his taijutsu. I am like 50/50 about this fight.


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## Trojan (Dec 21, 2014)

^
I wouldn't bother, really.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> I wouldn't bother, really.



Yeah. At least there will be less stupid posts in my thread.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

Hussain said:


> A fodderstomps low difficult.
> 
> Madara stands no chance in taijutsu against him.
> 
> ...



Kabuto knew nothing about his prime. Madara wasnt better than before since Edo Hashirama, weakened by clones, fought on par with him. But how could he? Madara was "beyond his prime"! He probably was, because of Mokuton and Rinnegan. But his physical traits were the same.


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## Mercurial (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Weaker edo.....for someone to be upgraded beyond his prime given the rinnegan given hashiramas power...unlimited chakra and regen...he blocked v1 raikages punch hence raikage mentioning he needs to charge up his shroud and speed..Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> he might catch raikage offguard a few times but he gets ligerbombed pretty quickly..



Madara blocked (when already distracted) Ei's full speed, you can see it from the hair and it's logical because Ei had to amp his speed thanks to Onoki, not with his own Raiton chakra.


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## Alucardemi (Dec 21, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Kabuto knew nothing about his prime. Madara wasnt better than before since Edo Hashirama, weakened by clones, fought on par with him. But how could he? Madara was "beyond his prime"! He probably was, because of Mokuton and Rinnegan. But his physical traits were the same.



To add to this



Emphasis on "regain", as in the power he once had when he and Hashirama fought as humans. He was, without a doubt, weaker as an Edo Tensei.

Alive, his shunshin was absolutely ridiculous. He absolutely embarassed Sage Naruto, and that's a feat beyond even A. Although its unsure if Madara could harm him through the Raiton cloak.


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## Trojan (Dec 21, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Yeah. At least there will be less stupid posts in my thread.



Good for you. U_U


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## Trojan (Dec 21, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> To add to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



attacking SM Naruto, is beyond A Attacking KCM Naruto? What? 

Also, Hashirama is obviously ignorant about what happened to madara after his death. I doubt he has Internet in his grave, and he learned that a guy named Kabuto  on Facebook puttted info that he actually modified Madara.


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## Alucardemi (Dec 21, 2014)

Hussain said:


> attacking SM Naruto, is beyond A Attacking KCM Naruto? What?
> 
> Also, Hashirama is obviously ignorant about what happened to madara after his death. I doubt he has Internet in his grave, and he learned that a guy on Facebook put info that he actually modified Madara.



I thought you decided to leave the thread, instead of trying to push your ridiculous arguments into it.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> attacking SM Naruto, is beyond A Attacking KCM Naruto? What?
> 
> Also, Hashirama is obviously ignorant about what happened to madara after his death. I doubt he has Internet in his grave, and he learned that a guy named Kabuto on Facebook puttted info that he actually modified Madara.



Raikage never stomped, or blitzed KCM Naruto. Furthermore, KCM Naruto could react to him.

Hashirama fought Madara countless times. He knows anything about his power level. He witnessed Madara's strength and speed when they fought and he came to conclusion Madara didnt have his full power. Madara's physical traits were not amped.

But you will disagree. Ok. Explain to me why Edo Hashirama, not amped at all, *weakened* by clones he created, fought on par with Edo Madara and immobilised him. You have yet to prove Kabuto improved his physical traits.


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## Trojan (Dec 21, 2014)

I am sure I will regret this foolish move..  


> =StarWanderer;52512770]Raikage never stomped, or blitzed KCM Naruto. Furthermore, KCM Naruto could react to him.


Neither did Madara to Naruto. 
Madara attacked, and Narudo reacted and blocked his attack, but was still thrown away. 


> Hashirama fought Madara countless times. He knows anything about his power level. He witnessed Madara's strength and speed when they fought and he came to conclusion Madara didnt have his full power. Madara's physical traits were not amped.


Again, Hashirama was dead, and Kabuto modified Madara when Hashirama was dead. While they were alive, Madara needed Kurama to keep up with Hashirama. However, in this war, he did defeat him by himself. 



> But you will disagree. Ok. Explain to me why Edo Hashirama, not amped at all, *weakened* by clones he created, fought on par with Edo Madara and immobilised him.


Hashirama is an Edo, his chakra got restored, and the clones he created were destroyed and the chakra returned to him eventually BEFORE his battle with madara.  



> You have yet to prove Kabuto improved his physical traits.



Link removed

and there is another chapter when he stated something about Madara being a fusion of "madara & Hashirama" but don't feel like looking it up. Though I think it's chapter 575 IIRC

Edit:
Link removed
there it is.


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## LostSelf (Dec 21, 2014)

Wait guys. Ei was preventing Naruto AND Bee from leaving in V1.

SM Naruto's best feat is reacting to the Third Raikage. The Third Raikage who was being reacted by the other guy that protected Naruto (I don't remember his name). His speed is nowhere near V2 Ei.

And Madara cannot keep up with V2 Ei for long. Madara didn't react to Ei's full speed. Ei himself comments that he will need to increase his speed in order to crush his guard. But he was never talking about needing Onoki.

Hussain is right, actually. Once Ei goes V2, Madara becomes his bitch. As simple as that.


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## Trojan (Dec 21, 2014)

Honestly, the 1 hit that madara did does not determine anything to begin with.  
by their logic, madara was a pinball by all the other Bijuus afterward. Edo Madara was fodderstompped by Lee
and so on and so forth, it's only 1 hit to determine everything based on it!


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## Ghost (Dec 21, 2014)

Ei stomps.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> I am sure I will regret this foolish move..



If you can prove you are right, you wont.



> Neither did Madara to Naruto.
> Madara attacked, and Narudo reacted and blocked his attack, but was still thrown away.



At the same time, Naruto was unable to dodge his blow. But he was on the ground. He knew that he is against Madara there, yet he did nothing other than blocked his attack.



> Again, Hashirama was dead, and Kabuto modified Madara when Hashirama was dead. While they were alive, Madara needed Kurama to keep up with Hashirama. However, in this war, he did defeat him by himself.



Madara defeated Hashirama because Obito returned him back to life. Madara would have been sealed if there was no Obito Madara can use.

But before that? Edo Hashirama kept up with Edo Madara no problem and immobilised him. That already proves Madara's physical traits werent improved.

And Madara could keep up with Hashirama in his lifetime. He just couldnt defeat him.



> Hashirama is an Edo, his chakra got restored, and the clones he created were destroyed and the chakra returned to him eventually BEFORE his battle with madara.



Anyway, Edo Hashirama kept up with "modified" Edo Madara.



> Link removed
> 
> and there is another chapter when he stated something about Madara being a fusion of "madara & Hashirama" but don't feel like looking it up. Though I think it's chapter 575 IIRC
> 
> ...



Thats exactly why Edo Madara is "beyond his prime". Because He is a fusion of himself and Hashirama - he has Hashirama's Mokuton. Plus Rinnegan. Thats how Kabuto improved him.

But his physical traits were the same. There is nothing to suggest his physical stats were modified by Kabuto.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> Edo Madara was fodderstompped by Lee



Realy? Can you bring here scan please? 

And only anime knowledge allowed.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> And Madara cannot keep up with V2 Ei for long. Madara didn't react to Ei's full speed.



Madara did react to Ei's full speed. And he needed Oonoki to increase his speed to be able to break Madara's defence.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Weaker edo.....for someone to be upgraded beyond his prime given the rinnegan given hashiramas power...unlimited chakra and regen...he blocked v1 raikages punch hence raikage mentioning he needs to charge up his shroud and speed..Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> he might catch raikage offguard a few times but he gets ligerbombed pretty quickly..



First i want to say i believe Aye wins, a liger bomb should wrap things up here.



But i just wan't to clear up this misconception, being a edo does not increase your taijutsu prowess or your physical abilities, in fact the manga implies the exact opposite.


if you want to argue he received extra power ups that enhanced him beyond his alive form i agree, tho idk because his alive form had 100 kyubi, but in a physical sense and in a cqc sense that is incorrect


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 21, 2014)

How the hell is this fair? Ay has the overwhelming durability and physical strength advantage here, he is faster than Madara as well. Madara can't even hurt him with punches and kicks, while any one of Ay's moves would end Madara's life if they hit.

Ay zero diff.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> How the hell is this fair? Ay has the overwhelming durability and physical strength advantage here, he is faster than Madara as well. Madara can't even hurt him with punches and kicks, while any one of Ay's moves would end Madara's life if they hit.
> 
> Ay zero diff.



Its pretty fair, but it seems you are very new to manga.


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## Ghost (Dec 21, 2014)

^ pfffffffffft


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## SSMG (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Weaker edo.....for someone to be upgraded beyond his prime given the rinnegan given hashiramas power...unlimited chakra and regen...he blocked v1 raikages punch hence raikage mentioning he needs to charge up his shroud and speed..Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> he might catch raikage offguard a few times but he gets ligerbombed pretty quickly..



We were shown when madara got ressed by obito that he gained strength. 

We don't know how hashi's wood affected his power besides giving him mokuton. We do know when he became alive again he could escape jutsus that bounded his Edo self.

And that was v2 Ei. He states he needs to increase his speed not his shroud.. And then Oonki gave him the speed boost he was talking about.

And a ligerbomb wouldnnt do shit to madara. Madara one shot sm Naruto with a blitz. And sm Naruto is faster than his Kcm self and Kcm Naruto is faster than Ei. Sm  Naruto also is strong enough to grab and huck a boss size summon miles into the air. Madara lols over Ei.


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not getting into any extensive debate here cause I don't have time.
> 
> But let me get at some key points here:
> 
> ...



Goku could fly and had leverage through his flying ability what are you taking about the weight is the same jesus ...sm dosent make him weigh a ton...hashi dna massively increases strength endurance and vitality...a young obito wearing a zetsu suit a weak imitation of hashi was able to crush the boulder blocking the entrance no problem...madara is not lifting the rhino and is no way stronger then sm naruto in strength stop the fanfic...sm is the same as any technique the more skilled th user the more profficient he is he is no where close to sm madara in reflexes..


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

SSMG said:


> We were shown when madara got ressed by obito that he gained strength.
> 
> We don't know how hashi's wood affected his power besides giving him mokuton. We do know when he became alive again he could escape jutsus that bounded his Edo self.
> 
> ...



that was  v1 ei his hair was down and he did not amp his chakra levels and specifically said he will boost his speed
Link removed
this is v1 ei..sasukewas outreacting him..and yet he was ligerbombed..
here he is increasing his speed by amping his level just like he said against madara..
Link removed
This is v2 ei
Link removed
...sm naruto is in no way faster then kcm...are u saying madara is stronger thn sm naruto in lifting strength if so lol stop the fanfic..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> that was v1 ei his hair was down and he did not amp his chakra levels and specifically said he will boost his speed...sm naruto is in no way faster then kcm...are u saying madara is stronger thn sm naruto in lifting strength if so lol stop the fanfic..



Hair was down you say?

Link removed

He needed Oonoki to up his speed. Thats why he was relying on him. Without Oonoki, he couldnt do what he wanted to do. 

And do you think Ei is such an idiot to not go all out against Madara Uchiha? 

And how can you comment this? 

Link removed

Even Madara's clones could react to V2 Ei.


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## Blu-ray (Dec 21, 2014)

I was like "WTF" when I read the OP, but it's actually a fair matchup imo.

This is gonna come down to a battle of attrition. Madara's strikes can't do anything to Ay, and Ay himself can't hit Madara. If Sasuke can track Juubito, then Madara can _at least_ do the same meaning he effortlessly tracks Ay's inferior speed. If Madara could land a hit squarely on SM Naruto, whereas Ay couldn't tag KCM with his fastest hit, then the difference in Madara's favor. Combine that with EMS precog and Ay won't be touching him.

They're both monsters on the stamina side of things too. We're all familiar with Ay's Bijuu level chakra hype, and Madara himself could fight the entire Senju clan for a full day, and outright makes a Bijuu level construct with his own chakra.

Leaning towards Mads, purely because Ay's gonna be using up more energy due to churning out Chakra during the fight, while Mads is gonna be doing nothing but dodging all day everyday.


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## Veracity (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Goku could fly and had leverage through his flying ability what are you taking about the weight is the same jesus ...sm dosent make him weigh a ton...hashi dna massively increases strength endurance and vitality...a young obito wearing a zetsu suit a weak imitation of hashi was able to crush the boulder blocking the entrance no problem...madara is not lifting the rhino and is no way stronger then sm naruto in strength stop the fanfic...sm is the same as any technique the more skilled th user the more profficient he is he is no where close to sm madara in reflexes..



If goku was standing on the ground he could tank a punch from fucking tsuande without flinching . It's not his flying ability , it's his physical strength. 

Despite the fact that is already proven that sage Naruto adds weight . Want me to provide the feats because I can.

That's right, a Zetsu suit. Your entire argument was just destroyed by that single statement . A Zetsu suit doesn't equal Hashirama DNA. Yamato, Oro, or Danzo didn't recieve any type of speed increase meant from Hashirama's DNA, and nobody ever will.

So just cause you say so it's right ? No back your shit up.

If Madara was weaker then sage Naruto , he wouldn't have budged Naruto at all, rather knock him off his feet and into the air when a rhino couldn't at all.

We know sage Naruto can react to blindside attacks because: Link removed

And we know Naruto couldn't have been caught off guard because he was staring at Madara...: Link removed


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> I was like "WTF" when I read the OP, but it's actually a fair matchup imo.
> 
> This is gonna come down to a battle of attrition. Madara's strikes can't do anything to Ay, and Ay himself can't hit Madara. If Sasuke can track Juubito, then Madara can _at least_ do the same meaning he effortlessly tracks Ay's inferior speed. If Madara could land a hit squarely on SM Naruto, whereas Ay couldn't tag KCM with his fastest hit, then the difference in Madara's favor. Combine that with EMS precog and Ay won't be touching him.
> 
> ...



Stop giving madara ems sasukes feats he outmanouvered sm madara in cqc...edo madara could only block v1 as punch in such a tiny arena he will get tagged and grabbed..


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> If goku was standing on the ground he could tank a punch from fucking tsuande without flinching . It's not his flying ability , it's his physical strength.
> 
> Despite the fact that is already proven that sage Naruto adds weight . Want me to provide the feats because I can.
> 
> ...



For the love of god what do u think zetsus are made off ...zetsu suit is a pale imitation of hashirama it is litteraly senju dna..

A punch from freaking sakura sent kaguya flying is she stronger then kaguya?!!! adding nature energy does not increase ones weight provide the evidence...what kind of logic is there that makes naruto suddenly weigh a ton?


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## Arles Celes (Dec 21, 2014)

Madara might have equally good taijutsu and reflexes...hell...maybe even similar speed or at least close enough. Even if he is a bit slower his sharingan will make up for it.

However, he got nothing that can hurt Ei. Ei could resist with only a shallow wound a chidori from MS Sasuke.

No punch or kick from Madara will put him down. And he won't get tired anytime soon.

Even if Madara keeps dodging thanks to his sharingan he will eventually tire and Ei will get him with a Linger Bomb and kill him.

Without at least his fan, Madara stands no chance.


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## Veracity (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> For the love of god what do u think zetsus are made off ...zetsu suit is a pale imitation of hashirama it is litteraly senju dna..
> 
> A punch from freaking sakura sent kaguya flying is she stronger then kaguya?!!! adding nature energy does not increase ones weight provide the evidence...what kind of logic is there that makes naruto suddenly weigh a ton?



Zetsu suits aren't just made of Hashiramas DNA......

You mean sakura punching a distracted and airborne Kaguya in the back of her head causing her head to jerk foreword ? That's completely different from tossing her off her  two feet when she already has panel evidence that she can toss boss summoning into the air after stopping it's momentum with two feet... 

Jirayia lands on concrete and does this: Link removed

That justifies that it increased his weight rather it didn't. And that's panel evidence...


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## LostSelf (Dec 21, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara did react to Ei's full speed. And he needed Oonoki to increase his speed to be able to break Madara's defence.



He didn't. He reacted to V1 Ei. Ei said he needed to amp his speed more to crush his guard. He never said "We". We don't even know if Ei knew that Onoki could make him way faster.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> that was v1 ei his hair was down and he did not amp his chakra levels and specifically said he will boost his speed
> Link removed
> this is v1 ei..sasukewas outreacting him..and yet he was ligerbombed..
> here he is increasing his speed by amping his level just like he said against madara..
> ...





> Stop giving madara ems sasukes feats he outmanouvered sm madara in cqc...edo madara could only block v1 as punch in such a tiny arena he will get tagged and grabbed..



His hair was down after he punched Madara. He probably preserved his chakra. But before that and at the moment of punch, he was V2. Take a look at this: Link removed

Hair is pretty much up. V2 all the way.

And he is not an idiot to hold himself back against Madara Uchiha. He didnt hold himself back against Sasuke and used V2, why should he against far more dangerous enemy?

He was all out, but still needed Oonoki to increase his speed even further.


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## Blu-ray (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Stop giving madara ems sasukes feats he outmanouvered sm madara in cqc...edo madara could only block v1 as punch in such a tiny arena he will get tagged and grabbed..



Sasuke held his own at best. He didn't outmaneuver Madara. Not like it's a slight against Madara anyway. Those eyes let Sasuke tag Juubito. Ay couldn't even land a direct blow on a fully in control KCM Naruto going at his fastest. Sasuke tagging Madara doesn't mean Ay can.

Don't see why EMS Sasuke's tracking feats aren't transferable either. Madara has the same eye and at least equal prowess with it.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> Sasuke held his own at best. He didn't outmaneuver Madara. Not like it's a slight against Madara anyway. Those eyes let Sasuke tag Juubito. Ay couldn't even land a direct blow on a fully in control KCM Naruto going at his fastest. Sasuke tagging Madara doesn't mean Ay can.
> 
> Don't see why EMS Sasuke's tracking feats aren't transferable either. Madara has the same eye and at least equal prowess with it.



Sasuke never taged Madara, who was toying with him. Should we talk about this again? 

And Sasuke never reacted to Juubito himself. Juubito blocked that attack because he wanted to put them to "sleep".


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## RedChidori (Dec 21, 2014)

Euraj said:


> Madara catches him off guard a few times. His taijutsu strength makes no sense (like how he rolled over Sage Naruto in one panel). He has no feasible way to hurt Raikage in Raiton Chakra Mode though, and is eventually going to be caught and Liger Bombed.



Basically what Euraj said.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 21, 2014)

This is a massacre. The Raikage _destroys_ Madara in a Taijutsu fight. The difference in physique/stature alone is immediately evident, to say nothing of their feats or the fact that the Raikage's moveset is built entirely around Taijutsu.

Even if you go as far as to restrict A's Raiton armor and Shunshin, he's still got physical strength and durability that Madara can't come close to matching. And while Madara is reputed for his unusually large chakra pool, the Raikage's was compared to that of a Bijuu. There is no possible scenario for this match in which Madara doesn't get horribly raped.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> He didn't. He reacted to V1 Ei. Ei said he needed to amp his speed more to crush his guard. He never said "We". We don't even know if Ei knew that Onoki could make him way faster.



"I have got to up the speed"... through Oonoki's Doton.

It was V2 Ei. Take a look at here: a hard time

The hair is up, just like V2. 

He went full power against Sasuke, why wont he do the same against Madara?


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## LostSelf (Dec 21, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> "I have got to up the speed"... through Oonoki's Doton.
> 
> It was V2 Ei. Take a look at here: Link removed
> 
> ...



Ei's hair can be up like that sometimes. Especially when he charges it at first:

Link removed

This is V2:

Link removed

If Ei knew he couldn't increase his speed by himself to crush Madara's guard, then he would've said so or asked Onoki to help. But he didn't, he said he needed to move faster, wich was in his capabilities without needing Onoki.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> Ei's hair can be up like that sometimes. Especially when he charges it at first:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Its V2 in both scans you sent here. 

Its debatable but he most likely knew about Oonoki's ability. He probably knew as he had no surprise or anything when Oonoki came from behind to make him lighter. He had poker face all the time. The fact is - his hair was up, he was V2 when he attacked Madara. 

And another fact - Madara's clones were capable of reacting to V2 Ei: Link removed

Hair is up - V2.

Plus, is there any reason for Raikage to hold himself back against Madara, when he didnt do such a thing against Sasuke?


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Zetsu suits aren't just made of Hashiramas DNA......
> 
> You mean sakura punching a distracted and airborne Kaguya in the back of her head causing her head to jerk foreword ? That's completely different from tossing her off her  two feet when she already has panel evidence that she can toss boss summoning into the air after stopping it's momentum with two feet...
> 
> ...



Oh enlighten me what are whitezetsus made of?

And yet you claim someone much stronger shouldnt even move from the hit kaguya is tierrs and tiers above sakura in strength...

Link removed welp sasuke here must weigh a ton too right?

and lee here must weigh a ton too..Link removed

that was to showcase jirayias increased strngth..

Here jirayia was thrown back by a hit from asura even though sm jirayia is much stronger....sm users can be thrown back just like normal peopleif they cant utilize their strength through leverage..


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Sasuke held his own at best. He didn't outmaneuver Madara. Not like it's a slight against Madara anyway. Those eyes let Sasuke tag Juubito. Ay couldn't even land a direct blow on a fully in control KCM Naruto going at his fastest. Sasuke tagging Madara doesn't mean Ay can.
> 
> Don't see why EMS Sasuke's tracking feats aren't transferable either. Madara has the same eye and at least equal prowess with it.



Well ok sasuke held his own at best very well even though sm madara was forced to use his arm to block a vital blow to the chest...this feat in itself shits on any feats edo madara has he could barely block ei,s punch while sm madara was trolling tobiramas ftg blindside surprise attacks...its not even close...you cant carry sm madaras feats in cqc to sm hashirama who was getting outmatched by edo madara in cqc and was skewered with blackrods multiple times and sm madara was trolling ftg  surprise attacks..just like you cant compare sm naruto to sm madara just because both use sm..sasuke was told to hold greater potential then ems madara in his eyes..


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## LostSelf (Dec 21, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Its V2 in both scans you sent here.
> 
> Its debatable but he most likely knew about Oonoki's ability. He probably knew as he had no surprise or anything when Oonoki came from behind to make him lighter. He had poker face all the time. The fact is - his hair was up, he was V2 when he attacked Madara.
> 
> ...



The first scan is not V2. He never went full power until the end unless we assume that Bee can react to V2 as well.

I don't see them reacting to Ei there. In fact, the only reason they beat Ei there was because he was concerned about Tsunade and left his guard down. Otherwise the Susano'os would've won either way, but after a way longer battle.


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## Bonly (Dec 21, 2014)

Madara may be able to put up a block here and a block there and defend himself for a while but he's gonna catch a beating sooner or later


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## Nikushimi (Dec 21, 2014)

Raikage gon snatch the weave off this Uchiha sissy boy. Just grab his hair and swing him around like a yo-yo.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 22, 2014)

Eh, I think people here are vastly underestimating an alive Madara's physical prowess.

It's a known fact that he was fast enough to almost catch Sage Naruto completely off-guard. This makes his _Body Flicker_ speed *considerably* above that of the Third Raikage - who was directly compared to Ay's regular _Body Flicker[_ speed. Personally, that means to me that he shouldn't be too far off from the Fourth's maximum-speed _Body Flicker_ - at least, to the point where he could reasonably keep up with the latter's *top-speed *attacks.

The Fourth is going to find it difficult to even _come close _to landing a strike on Madara until he powers up to full-chakra levels. The constant usage of his fastest _Body Flicker_ just to prevent his foe from dancing circles around him means Ay is likely going to drain his reserves *far* more quickly than the Uchiha will. Personally, I believe Madara has a greater chakra capacity to begin with given with how much longevity he maintained his _Perfect Susanoo _- a technique credited and proven to match the power of Tailed Beasts - against Hashirama. Thus, with all likelihood, Ay will be outlasted by Madara.

That's not all. Madara's *incredible* physical strength has to be taken into account here. He threw Sage Naruto with a kick, making him at least equal to the Sage in regards to raw physical power. Realize that someone like Sage Jiraiya already eclipsed the striking power of regular-speed Ay, therefore a *substantially* stronger fighter in Sage Naruto and by extension, Madara, won't find the Raikage's punches and blows difficult to deal with, at all. He can likely block or catch his attacks (excluding cutting-based attacks) and counter accordingly.

Factor in Madara's *top-level* reactions and experience with the _Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan_, and you'll begin to see that Ay's unfortunately linear fighting style won't be permitting him many solid hits, if any at all. This will most likely come down to *attrition*, and for the reasons stated above, Madara is winning on that front.

Madara can't really hurt him, but he can outlast his enemy.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> The first scan is not V2. He never went full power until the end unless we assume that Bee can react to V2 as well.
> 
> I don't see them reacting to Ei there. In fact, the only reason they beat Ei there was because he was concerned about Tsunade and left his guard down. Otherwise the Susano'os would've won either way, but after a way longer battle.



That was V2. Raikage didnt want to dodge Bee - he wanted to beat him in a Lariat competition, to show him his Lariat was more powerfull. For that, he used V2 to increase the power of his Lariat.

Raikage Ei *blocked* clones Susanoo punch. If he was fast enough, he would have dodged it. Do you think he is that idiotic to block Susanoo punch if he is fast enough to dodge it? Highly doubt that.

And he used his V2 against Madara. Hair was up, had to increase his power through Oonoki. Definetely V2. If he wasnt holding himself back against Sasuke, he wont do it against much more dangerous foe.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> Raikage gon snatch the weave off this Uchiha sissy boy. Just grab his hair and swing him around like a yo-yo.



Read OP. No hair-pulling.


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## Veracity (Dec 22, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Oh enlighten me what are whitezetsus made of?
> 
> And yet you claim someone much stronger shouldnt even move from the hit kaguya is tierrs and tiers above sakura in strength...
> 
> ...



They are also created by the Gedo..into the air

They were also people themselves before being turned into white Zetsu; into the air

So in reality , Obito had an extra person attached to his body in comparison to just have Hashiramas DNA implanted into ones body.. So you can't attribute an entire Zetsu suit to a bit of DNA.

Are you forreal right now ? . Having your head jerked back from an off guard punch cannot even be compared to being tossed of your God damn feet when you know the opponent is there. The difference is substantial. A little kid can punch a grown man in his face and cause his head to jerk back. But if the grown man is blocking and the little kid is able to kick him completely off his legs , then the kid is stronger then the man. Simple as that.

Those are two terrible examples because:

A) Sasuke was thrown into the wall, meaning force was applied. PTS Naruto at that time could casually create craters, so I donno why him slamming Sasuke into the wall and creating a crater is suppose to prove anything.

And 

B) the ground was already torn apart before Lee started moving meaning he was merely lifting rocks with movement speed. & Lee was pushing off the ground which applies force to the area , as Jirayia was merely landing. Lee was essentially attacking the ground while Jirayia was simply landing . It applies morning to his strength as he was merely landing which applies only to weight. When Tsuande lands, she doesn't create craters.

You didn't provide a panel ... And Asura was manhandling bee causally so the strength difference between him and Sage Jirayia isn't they substantial . There's also the fact that he blindside attacked an imperfect sage which is completely different from Naruto's situation.

Actually surprised TastyMuffin didn't destroy you're argument considering he's the one they lead me to believe sage users weigh more.


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## SSMG (Dec 22, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> that was  v1 ei his hair was down and he did not amp his chakra levels and specifically said he will boost his speed
> 1
> this is v1 ei..sasukewas outreacting him..and yet he was ligerbombed..
> here he is increasing his speed by amping his level just like he said against madara..
> ...



Basically everything in this post is wrong. 
Ei was v2 against madara or else he wouldn't have needed Oonki to boost his speed he would have simply gone v2 but he already was v2... 
Eis hair was standing up against madara what are you even talking about? 
Sauske can react to v1 speed he can't outpace him.
Sm Naruto is faster than Kcm it was stated against the third raikage that sm enhances his reflexes right after he tried using Kcm on him.
And the feats shows madara koing sm naruto with a single hit whereas sm naruto could stop and Huck a giant boss sized summon without moving an inch.

Funny you bring up fanfic when your entire premise isnt based off anything related to the actual manga.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 23, 2014)

With Madara's performance against Sage Naruto in mind, he should be very close to Ei's speed in V2. And, frankly, Raikage is going to need that when Madara can outmaneuver him with superior reactions and speed under regular circumstances with V1. Madara also has more chakra and can outlast V2 quite casually; the max-speed flickers will drain Ei rather quickly. He also has the exclusive ability to absorb chakra: one that was present while blind without Rinnegan. So he can intercept Ei's strikes, absorb Raiton and snap his neck. 

They aren't even on the same level.


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> With Madara's performance against Sage Naruto in mind, he should be very close to Ei's speed in V2. And, frankly, Raikage is going to need that when Madara can outmaneuver him with superior reactions and speed under regular circumstances with V1. Madara also has more chakra and can outlast V2 quite casually; the max-speed flickers will drain Ei rather quickly. He also has the exclusive ability to absorb chakra: one that was present while blind without Rinnegan. So he can intercept Ei's strikes, absorb Raiton and snap his neck.
> 
> They aren't even on the same level.



what in gods name....if their reactions are comparable..and a has more speed...in an arena this small he will get touched..once madara is gripped by raikage he will get grappled by raikages superior strength liger bomb ends it..there is no outlasting happening here madara is not greatly superior to raikage in reactions at all you need to be in another tier to consistently dodge a character for long periods of time..not to mention ems madara does not absorb chakra...even without the rinnegan eyes madara passively retains some of the abilities..ems does not


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Basically everything in this post is wrong.
> Ei was v2 against madara or else he wouldn't have needed Oonki to boost his speed he would have simply gone v2 but he already was v2...
> Eis hair was standing up against madara what are you even talking about?
> Sauske can react to v1 speed he can't outpace him.
> ...



Oonoki weight technique had 2 functions that you conveniently forgot it inreases speed yes but it also massively increases striking strength..thats why oonoki was on his back shifting these attributes..a couldnt dent sussano and oonoki realising this tried to increase his striking strength increased speed 
wouldt help while madara was forced to camp in sussano to counter eis speed..
Sm naruto is the same he can react to v1 ei but cant outpace him...
Yes sm naruto was stated to have marginally better reactions but the difference in physical speed between sm and kcm is so much that kcm is generally much more capable sm naruto has no feats close to dodging and sidestepping v2 eis punch by 10 meters..and for the love of god stronger characters can still be knocked back by weaker characters...madara knocked back a naruto who weighs 55kg while he did not use leverage to stop madaras momentum because of his speed..madara is not stronger then sm naruto in strength he has not shown anything close to any strength feats on that level..


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> They are also created by the Gedo..bounced right off
> 
> They were also people themselves before being turned into white Zetsu; bounced right off
> 
> ...



Why in gods name would sm incrase weight? and by how much ? do you believe naruto weighs the same as 500ton rhino? naruto stopped the rhino because he was able to react easily he positioned himself to provide leverage grabbed the rhinos horn and then used his leverage and grip on the ground to push the rhinos momentum back...while in madaras case he was surprised by madaras sudden speed barely managed to putup his arms to provide some sort of block the hit came from a lower angle and hit him in the upper body lifting him off the ground how is that equivelant to taking the momentum of a charging 500ton bohemoth then throwing it in the stratosphere..


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## SSMG (Dec 23, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Oonoki weight technique had 2 functions that you conveniently forgot it inreases speed yes but it also massively increases striking strength..thats why oonoki was on his back shifting these attributes..a couldnt dent sussano and oonoki realising this tried to increase his striking strength increased speed
> wouldt help while madara was forced to camp in sussano to counter eis speed..
> Sm naruto is the same he can react to v1 ei but cant outpace him...
> Yes sm naruto was stated to have marginally better reactions but the difference in physical speed between sm and kcm is so much that kcm is generally much more capable sm naruto has no feats close to dodging and sidestepping v2 eis punch by 10 meters..and for the love of god stronger characters can still be knocked back by weaker characters...madara knocked back a naruto who weighs 55kg while he did not use leverage to stop madaras momentum because of his speed..madara is not stronger then sm naruto in strength he has not shown anything close to any strength feats on that level..



 I never once insinuated Oonkis lightened jutsu doesnt increase striking strength so I don't know how u got that I forgot about that. But raikage didn't mention needing to increase striking strength.. Only a boost in his speed.

And no madara blocked Eis speed and strength with his bare hands.. Not susanno. He only needed to camp in susanno for lightened Eis speed.

What are you basing that sm naruto can't react and dodge Eis speed from? We know he has better reactions than Kcm Naruto which is enough right there and there's no real shunshin speed comparisons to be made.

And no wrong again madaras attack must have more force than Naruto can withstand if he knocks him out in one hit. And Naruto could withstand the force of giant boss summons without moving an inch.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 23, 2014)

> what in gods name....if their reactions are comparable..and a has more speed...in an arena this small he will get touched..once madara is gripped by raikage he will get grappled by raikages superior strength liger bomb ends it..there is no outlasting happening here madara is not greatly superior to raikage in reactions at all you need to be in another tier to consistently dodge a character for long periods of time..not to mention ems madara does not absorb chakra...even without the rinnegan eyes madara passively retains some of the abilities..ems does not



So an Octagon that is 50 times bigger than everage UFC Octagon is a small arena? It seems you havent read OP properly.


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## Raiken (Dec 23, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> He had hashirama empowerment at that point tho.
> 
> A goes max power shroud and decapitate madara whether he sees it in sharingan vision or not.


True. Madara at that point had Hashirama's Body. And we all know Base Hashirama is around BM Naruto level, so a blind Post-Ressurection Madara with Hashirama's Body blitzing SM Naruto isn't too surprising.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Why in gods name would sm incrase weight? and by how much ? do you believe naruto weighs the same as 500ton rhino? naruto stopped the rhino because he was able to react easily he positioned himself to provide leverage grabbed the rhinos horn and then used his leverage and grip on the ground to push the rhinos momentum back...while in madaras case he was surprised by madaras sudden speed barely managed to putup his arms to provide some sort of block the hit came from a lower angle and hit him in the upper body lifting him off the ground how is that equivelant to taking the momentum of a charging 500ton bohemoth then throwing it in the stratosphere..



So you agree that Naruto weighs more on sage mode considering I was able to back my accusation up with feats right? That's all that I need really lol. Enough to make Jirayia create craters by simply Landing , and enough to make Naruto reduce a pile of building sized rocks to rubber with his back.

You got me twisted up here. Narutos weight really has hardly anything to do here. You jidt devised to focuses on the that aspect , probably because it seems the most outrageous. What really matters here is Narutos leg strength. 

In my opinion, if Naruto had attempted to simply block the rhinos charge, he would have simply been pushed back, but clearly not knocked off his feet, and that's where o believe that Madara > Naruto comes from. Madara being able to knock a heavy ass perfect sage straight off his feet leads me to believe that his strength is superior to Narutos. You really can't say naruto wasn't expecting it , because I've already proven that he couldn't stop himself from expecting it. The difference here is that Naruto may not have had as much time to get into position to toss Madara like the rhino. But he still had enough time to block. I think if the rhino caught Naruto in the same position that Madara did , Naruto would still be standing on his feet. That's the difference between the two.


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

A's gonna break him in half sooner or later. Hell he can just stay there let Madara kick and punch how much he wants. He'll tickle him at best. Once A gets bored with the little girl punches he's going to demolish him with a raiger-bomb.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

....Madara would punch and kick Ay around the battlefield easily. Naruto tossed a Rhino in the clouds and Madara tossed Naruto around. Ay probabaly has less leg strength then War Arc sage Naruto.


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> ....Madara would punch and kick Ay around the battlefield easily. Naruto tossed a Rhino in the clouds and Madara tossed Naruto around. Ay probabaly has less leg strength then War Arc sage Naruto.



When i saw your post, i thought i misread the OP. Then i went back and checked again. 



StarWanderer said:


> *EMS Madara Uchiha vs Fourth Raikage Ei*.



Yeah no. I saw it just fine. The Madara that tossed SM Naruto around was amped by Hashirama juice. 

In no shape or form is that version equal to alive base Madara who is just your around Sasuke/Itachi in strength. We don't have any feats making us assume otherwise. He was known for his eye power, not physical power. 

Yeah, A breaks him in half.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

Or you can re-read the manga. He didn't have sage mode, and only having Hashirama DNA, doesnt increase strength or speed so ..


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

Did you see me bringing up SM? No.

Is that why Obito with a manufactured hashi dna suit was able to destroy a pretty big rock while he only put a fist size hole in it before? 

Hashi dna absolutely gives you better physical strength. Obito straight up blocked Suigetsu swinging his sword with his Hashi made arm and he didn't even flinch. 

A still breaks him in half.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

Sorin said:


> Did you see me bringing up SM? No.
> 
> Is that why Obito with a manufactured hashi dna suit was able to destroy a pretty big rock while he only put a fist size hole in it before?
> 
> ...



Other then the fact that he had a whole extra being attached to his body, white Zetsu is made of Hashirama DNA + Gedo chakra + an entire past generation of Shinobi ... So not the same thing as just Hashirama DNA.

So yeah your point is moot. Please do bring up an example of something other then an entire Zetsu suit( Ya know, just Hashirama DNA) enhancing a Shinobi's speed and strength.


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

I just did. Check my post again. 

Obito shouldn't be close to being able to block the cleaver with one hand like nothing. But thanks to Hashi's arm he did it casually. He wasn't wearing the zetsu suit at that point.

And of course the level of shinobis over hashi dna differs. You have Yamatos and then you have Madaras.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 23, 2014)

> Yeah no. I saw it just fine. The Madara that tossed SM Naruto around was amped by Hashirama juice.
> 
> In no shape or form is that version equal to alive base Madara who is just your around Sasuke/Itachi in strength. We don't have any feats making us assume otherwise. He was known for his eye power, not physical power.
> 
> Yeah, A breaks him in half.



Wrong. Hashirama's DNA didnt increase his physical strength.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 23, 2014)

Cryorex said:


> True. Madara at that point had Hashirama's Body. And we all know Base Hashirama is around BM Naruto level, so a blind Post-Ressurection Madara with Hashirama's Body blitzing SM Naruto isn't too surprising.



Isn't Hashiboob just a decent fragment of Hashi's power but hardly a full representation of his power?

And Hashi was never blitzing or overwhelming Madara with physical strength. Neither he got any superhuman strength feats. We saw EMS Madara and him clashing in battle with no advantage on either side.

Yamato never displayed any crazy feats of speed or strength and neither did Danzou who had trouble keeping up with MS Sasuke in speed.

At best Hashi's DNA strengthens jutsus in addition to giving the user more life energy to diminish the drawbacks of powerful jutsus. That and mokuton.


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

Nice argument. I am close to changing my mind after the fantastic new evidence you brought forth. 

I concede. 
ITT people comparing Yamato with Madara. 



> And Hashi was never blitzing or overwhelming Madara with physical  strength. Neither he got any superhuman strength feats. We saw EMS  Madara and him clashing in battle with no advantage on either side.



And you just contradicted yourself in one sentence. On one hand Madara's living self is just as strong the one that punched SM Naruto but yet he clashed with Hashi many times, who himself doesn't have superhuman strength feats. So which one is it? 

Madara has the gunbai. The gunbai helped him block BM Naruto who was tossing bijudamas with pure strength left, right and center. That certainly helped against Hashirama don't you think?

Edit:
*Spoiler*: __ 








And i rest my case.


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> So you agree that Naruto weighs more on sage mode considering I was able to back my accusation up with feats right? That's all that I need really lol. Enough to make Jirayia create craters by simply Landing , and enough to make Naruto reduce a pile of building sized rocks to rubber with his back.
> 
> You got me twisted up here. Narutos weight really has hardly anything to do here. You jidt devised to focuses on the that aspect , probably because it seems the most outrageous. What really matters here is Narutos leg strength.
> 
> In my opinion, if Naruto had attempted to simply block the rhinos charge, he would have simply been pushed back, but clearly not knocked off his feet, and that's where o believe that Madara > Naruto comes from. Madara being able to knock a heavy ass perfect sage straight off his feet leads me to believe that his strength is superior to Narutos. You really can't say naruto wasn't expecting it , because I've already proven that he couldn't stop himself from expecting it. The difference here is that Naruto may not have had as much time to get into position to toss Madara like the rhino. But he still had enough time to block. I think if the rhino caught Naruto in the same position that Madara did , Naruto would still be standing on his feet. That's the difference between the two.



No i dont believe naruto weighs more else if he weighed several tons everytime he would run or jump there would be craters...this is not so..and lets assume naruto suddenly weighs one ton..which you havent provided any reason why sm would increase weight so dramatically while maintaining the same size and shape..we have part 1 sasuke knocking out giant bears weighing more then a ton out with a kick..so madara even knocking a one ton naruto isnt some strength feat that surpasses sm naruto...if madara blitzed naruto he could not react properly and barely put his arms up to attempt a desperate arm block..he could not utilise his legs to gain leverage thus utlising his grip on the ground to put his back into it....madara hit him from a lower position to the upperbody thus lifting him off the ground..the rhino was huge and thus it aimed its head low as to put his momentum on naruto from above which naruto countered utlising his strength by gaining leverage from his grip on the ground thus pushing back..if you hit a stationary target who is not  exerting force back or pushing back you can move him with a hit even though you are much weaker..


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

Sorin said:


> I just did. Check my post again.
> 
> Obito shouldn't be close to being able to block the cleaver with one hand like nothing. But thanks to Hashi's arm he did it casually. He wasn't wearing the zetsu suit at that point.
> 
> And of course the level of shinobis over hashi dna differs. You have Yamatos and then you have Madaras.



Or Obito is just physically strong? Thats more of a Durabilty feat anyway. Post the scan though cause I want to analyze it .

Because Yamato is a fodder enhanced by Hashirama's DNA. Madara was a legend even before he was enhanced .


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> No i dont believe naruto weighs more else if he weighed several tons everytime he would run or jump there would be craters...this is not so..and lets assume naruto suddenly weighs one ton..which you havent provided any reason why sm would increase weight so dramatically while maintaining the same size and shape..we have part 1 sasuke knocking out giant bears weighing more then a ton out with a kick..so madara even knocking a one ton naruto isnt some strength feat that surpasses sm naruto...if madara blitzed naruto he could not react properly and barely put his arms up to attempt a desperate arm block..he could not utilise his legs to gain leverage thus utlising his grip on the ground to put his back into it....madara hit him from a lower position to the upperbody thus lifting him off the ground..the rhino was huge and thus it aimed its head low as to put his momentum on naruto from above which naruto countered utlising his strength by gaining leverage from his grip on the ground thus pushing back..if you hit a stationary target who is not  exerting force back or pushing back you can move him with a hit even though you are much weaker..



You not be believing such is backed up by nothing lol . I've actually posted evidence so nice try ? Except Naruto doesn't leap off 50ft ledges and land all the time. He's not going to create a crater by simply jumping . Why the hell would Narutos shape change if his body is directly enhanced by chakra. It's a manga, being heavier doesn't mean you get bigger.

There was no logic behind that example at all . The difference between a ton bear and a heavy ass sage, is that Naruto not only weighs a lot, but he's strong as hell. You not only have to physically over power him, but you have to toss the weight on top of that .

No not at all. Naruto had his arms completely folded when he was hit. That's a full block. Don't add in shit just to prove a failing point .

Are you forreal ? The rhino targeted his midsection: _Hashirama._

Just like Madara did: _Hashirama._

It was the exact same position , why are you adding shit now lol? 

I will be damn shamed to let anyone weaker and lighter then me , kick me off my legs completely . That doesn't happen . That person would need to be physically stronger .


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Or Obito is just physically strong? Thats more of a Durabilty feat anyway. Post the scan though cause I want to analyze it .
> 
> Because Yamato is a fodder enhanced by Hashirama's DNA. Madara was a legend even before he was enhanced .



I posted it in an edit. Sure durability is increased too but Suigetsu's remark implies that strength is also involved. " He shouldn't be able to block it with *just one hand..*."Or in other words: "this guy's fucking strong"

And with your second sentence you just strengthened my argument. Of course Yamato doesn't have the feats of Madara with hashi dna. Madara is a legend while Yamato is barely jounin level. 

You have Yamato, then you have Danzou, then you have Obito and then you have Madara. These are shinobis of varying levels. Notice how the feats are greater as the level rises? Of course Madara's feats are greater than Yamato. He is a fucking descendant of Indra. Yamato on the other hand was just an ordinary kid and hashi's dna made him a jounin at best.

If you don't see why it's foolish to compare them then i'm outta here.


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Or Obito is just physically strong? Thats more of a Durabilty feat anyway. Post the scan though cause I want to analyze it .
> 
> Because Yamato is a fodder enhanced by Hashirama's DNA. Madara was a legend even before he was enhanced .



Zetsus have the same exact dna as hashirama...confirmed by sakura but it is a pale imitation..anything zetsu can do hashirama can do better half of obitos body is made by hashi dna which inreased his durability..obito is not that durable without it..that zetsu suit was redundant once obito got used to his senju powers otherwise he would wear the suit all the time...hence hashi gives him increased strength showcased by zetsu suit..


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## Rocky (Dec 23, 2014)

A chops Madara in two with almost no difficulty. Who thought this was a good idea? Madara knocks over Sage Naruto so we put him against Raikage? Seriously, Preta Path momentarily had Nrauto in a headlock....


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> You not be believing such is backed up by nothing lol . I've actually posted evidence so nice try ? Except Naruto doesn't leap off 50ft ledges and land all the time. He's not going to create a crater by simply jumping . Why the hell would Narutos shape change if his body is directly enhanced by chakra. It's a manga, being heavier doesn't mean you get bigger.
> 
> There was no logic behind that example at all . The difference between a ton bear and a heavy ass sage, is that Naruto not only weighs a lot, but he's strong as hell. You not only have to physically over power him, but you have to toss the weight on top of that .
> 
> ...



Please provide me a reason why sm would increase weight and if naruto was so heavy jumping and running would definitely leave craters as would landing from the jump..if the bear weighs more then naruto and sasuke knocks the bear around with a kick thats a better strength feat madara didnt overpower sm naruto they did not grapple naruto did not exert any oppsite force he was stationary and put in a arm block...if he actually pushed back along with the block you would have a case...he did not push back along with the block thus utilising his strength...a much faster person would still land a hit on you before you can push back leaving you a stationary target


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> A chops Madara in two with almost no difficulty. Who thought this was a good idea? Madara knocks over Sage Naruto so we put him against Raikage? Seriously, Preta Path momentarily had Nrauto in a headlock....


 
Yeah this too. 

Not looking great for Madara either way. He gets snapped in half like a twig.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> A chops Madara in two with almost no difficulty. Who thought this was a good idea? Madara knocks over Sage Naruto so we put him against Raikage? Seriously, Preta Path momentarily had Nrauto in a headlock....



I wouldn't ever call Preta Path placing Sage Naruto in a headlock anything more than a tactic that caught the latter severely off-guard. From the looks of it, Sage Naruto wasn't even *attempting* to break out, and was just about to before having his energies absorbed. That doesn't in the least imply anything in regards to strength concerning Sage Naruto or Preta Path.

Seriously, an alive Madara effortlessly dances around Ay's regular speed, and wields sufficient striking power to easily overpower the Raikage's own (without maximum-speed Body Flickers). The latter's top speed is going to be _absolutely_ needed to even touch his adversary, so the notion that Raikage defeats him 'almost no difficulty' is a ridiculous one.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> And you just contradicted yourself in one sentence. On one hand Madara's living self is just as strong the one that punched SM Naruto but yet he clashed with Hashi many times, who himself doesn't have superhuman strength feats. So which one is it?
> 
> Madara has the gunbai. The gunbai helped him block BM Naruto who was tossing bijudamas with pure strength left, right and center. That certainly helped against Hashirama don't you think?



He also clashed with Edo Hashirama and Edo Hashirama kept up no problem.

And can you bring ere some evidence of how Hashirama's DNA increase someones speed? And if it can, doesnt it prove Hashirama, thus Madara, had super strength themselfs?


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## Rocky (Dec 24, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I wouldn't ever call Preta Path placing Sage Naruto in a headlock anything more than a tactic that caught the latter severely off-guard.




But, I thought "Perfect Sages could not be caught off guard?" 

Or can they?



> From the looks of it, Sage Naruto wasn't even *attempting* to break out, and was just about to before having his energies absorbed. That doesn't in the least imply anything in regards to strength concerning Sage Naruto or Preta Path.



It implies that shinobi of lesser strength can temporarily get the better of powerhouses. 



> Seriously, an alive Madara effortlessly dances around Ay's regular speed.



Madara isn't dancing around shit. His best speed feat is getting the jump on a battle worn Naruto that likely wasn't even expecting an attack, and definitely was not aware that Madara had gotten more agile.

I don't see why v1 A would not be capable of the same. Hell, A essentially was doing the same thing to the faster KCM Naruto.



> and wields sufficient striking power to easily overpower the Raikage's own (without maximum-speed Body Flickers).





Knocking down Sage Naruto doesn't require some sort of super strength. Naruto wasn't standing there bracing for Madara like he was the Boss Rhino.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> Madara isn't dancing around shit. His best speed feat is getting the jump on a battle worn Naruto that likely wasn't even expecting an attack, and definitely was not aware that Madara had gotten more agile.
> 
> I don't see why v1 A would not be capable of the same. Hell, A essentially was doing the same thing to the faster KCM Naruto.



Umm... What? Edo Madara, weaker than his alive-self, easily reacted to V2 Ei's punch. Later Ei himself stated Madara can counter his speed.

And his clones were able to react to V2 Ei. *CLONES*. 

And how can you tell Naruto wasnt expecting attack? He knew alive Madara can attack them after he got revived. It was obvious. And he was looking at Madara.

Anyway, SM gave him outstanding sensor ability.

And KCM Naruto is not as fast as alive Madara.


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## Trojan (Dec 24, 2014)

> And KCM Naruto is not as fast as alive Madara.



Log out please.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> Log out please.



Prove i am wrong please.


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## Trojan (Dec 24, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Prove i am wrong please.



[YOUTUBE]qmgua1IX-Jo[/YOUTUBE]
lol
***
Edo Madara > alive madara as stated in the manga.
Madara has no feats of being faster than KCM Naruto. If one hits is what made you believe so,
then madara is slower than Gaara, and every single Bijuu since they made him like a volleyball or something and he couldn't dodge any attack.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> lol
> ***
> Edo Madara > alive madara as stated in the manga.
> Madara has no feats of being faster than KCM Naruto. If one hits is what made you believe so,
> then madara is slower than Gaara, and every single Bijuu since they made him like a volleyball or something and he couldn't dodge any attack.



Maaan, how many times will you bring up a statement that was countered countless times? It was Kabuto's statement, who knew nothing about Madara's Golden Age. And Madara was "beyond" only because of Mokuton and Rinnegan. His physical traits were not amped. His speed *WASNT* amped. In fact, alive Madara has better physical traits than Edo Madara. And it has been proven in the actual *MANGA*.

If Madara was *beyond* his Golden Age, *how the hell Edo Hashirama, reanimated not in his full power, fought on par with him and immobilised him?* 

Madara already dodged Gaara's sand while being an Edo. And he reacted to V2 Raikage Ei by blocking his punch. That alone put him in a speed and reflexes level higher than that of Minato. Oh, and Minato dodged Ei only because of Hiraishin. If not for Hiraishin, he would have probably died there.

And lol, do you think Minato can dodge all 9 tailed beasts at once? LOL.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 24, 2014)

Edo Madara is better than living Madara in the sense that he has access to a wider array of abilities. The Rinnegan, for example, gives him access to fūjutsu kyūin and (presumably) the meteor technique -- things that the living incarnation only unlocked in the later stages of his life, when he became a decrepit old man hooked onto ninja IV. And we know for a fact that the Rinnegan at least posed a threat of some capacity to Hashirama because, if for some bizarre reason you don't believe that the ability to absorb jutsu is a useful ability, the man actually had to use a jutsu to specifically restrain that ability of his. Similarly, edo Madara also has mokuton thanks to the modifications Kabuto did to his body (which implies that this wasn't something the living version - even by the time he was old - had), which is obviously an incredibly valuable asset. Maybe not to Hashirama, given that he can do everything Madara can do but to a better scale, but there's a reason that it's one of the most coveted abilities in the Narutoverse.

With that said, a lot of implications in the manga (direct statements by Tobirama mentioning that Orochimaru bringing them back to "near full power" was a mistake) and feats suggest that the living incarnation is superior in the sense that being a zombie somehow degrades physical attributes and the power of one's jutsu.

As far as this matchup in particular goes, I think Madara could give Ei a fair fight. He's obviously fast and skilled enough to keep up with him in a taijutsu skirmish, and his Sharingan (assuming he has that in this match) obviously only augments his existing abilities. However, he doesn't really have any notable taijutsu moves or even any feats of particularly remarkable strength, so I don't think he could actually put Ei down past his raiton shroud or his freakish endurance. Conversely, the Raikage is insanely strong and base Madara - while resilient - would probably suffer a similar fate to Sasuke if Ei managed to get a direct hit in.


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## Veracity (Dec 25, 2014)

@sorin

I'll actually sit here and debate with you once you provide the scan lol. It's fan fiction as of now.

That makes no sense at all. I don't even understand the point of what you just said. You are gonna have to clarify cause it's useless at this point. All I know is that giving Madara Hashirama DNA is not going to increase him anymore more then giving it to any individual in the world. He's going to be stronger then most yeah ...? But that's because he was already stronger to begin with.

@sabre.

There is hardly a point of debating with you here. You keep on saying provide a scan when Ive ALREADY done so. How about you provide a scan of Naruto landing a fair distance in safe mode without creating a crater . Cause that would help validate your point .

What you don't understand is that at this point in the manga( or any manga at this level or above) weight is hardly an issue. It's become less and less impressive because a ton is like a pound to these Shinobi. What really matters is the physical strength . So it doesn't matter how big the bear was, it matters how strong the bear was .... Sage Naruto is > to the bear in physical strength( by a multiple of close to hundreds) so Madaras feat is far more impressive.

Just because Kishi didn't directly illustrate Naruto pushing back against Madara didn't mean it wasn't present . Considering Naruto actually reacted to Madaras jump and was able to place his arms to block the attack, it's assumed that he countered the force to not get pushed over. He didn't just fall over bro that's dumb af.


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## Deadway (Dec 26, 2014)

There is no such thing as V1 "speed" and V2 "speed"

Raikage moves at the speed he does at all times, regardless of cloak amps.

_Raiton Chakra collects on the body, it's a body invigoration ninjutsu. From inside the body lightning gushes out, the speed of ones nerve transmissions rises. The body is wrapped in lightning, the jutsu durability is like that of armor. The Raikages' application of it causes their combat power to rise considerably._

When he fought Minato, he was in "V1" and said Minato dodged him at FULL SPEED

White Zetsu was amazed at how fast Raikage was when he grabbed him in base

The raiton no yoroi simply increases his reflexes and reactions, thus allowing him to use his ridiculous speed to avoid extremely fast attacks.



On topic, Madara gets destroyed. For those who use the Sage Naruto getting one shotted as proof of Madara being capable of doing anything, to even push SM Naruto that far away so quickly means he would have to have hit him with more force than a giant rhino, which if he did, he would have proceeded to eviscerate Sai from the planet, which he didn't. It was sloppy jutsu portrayal.


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## Veracity (Dec 26, 2014)

You mean like when Naruto punches two fodder and doesn't reduce them to Mush? : the background

Or when Juubidara kicks Minato with enough force to plow through a Ribcage Sussano like butter without injuring minato: the background


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## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> When he fought Minato, he was in "V1" and said Minato dodged him at FULL SPEED



His hair was up, it was V2. He had a head band.


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