# Great News: Huge 13 story Mosque Going Up Near WTC Site



## Chibibaki (May 7, 2010)

> A proposal to build a mosque steps from Ground Zero received the support of a downtown committee despite some loved ones of 9/11 victims finding it offensive.
> 
> The 13-story mosque and Islamic cultural center was unanimously endorsed by the 12-member Community Board 1's financial district committee.
> 
> ...


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## Squeek (May 7, 2010)

I have mixed feelings about this


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## Mael (May 7, 2010)

Yeah I kinda don't see this going over well, noble intentions or not.

Conservafags will b'awwww and invoke the spirits of Rush and Beck to their sides.  Libfags will cheer thinking it'll promote their interesting view of tolerance and cultural ties.  The rest of us will be scratching our heads with slight apprehensiveness.


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## Saufsoldat (May 7, 2010)

Ban minarets!


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## Jin-E (May 7, 2010)

I agree with the above comments.

Why few would blame 9/11 on the religion of Islam itself, Its pretty insensitive nontheless. Its as if someone built a huge Catholic Church near a memorial museum for the Spanish inquisition.


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## SxR (May 7, 2010)

lol everyone hates muslims


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## sadated_peon (May 7, 2010)

I don't see anything wrong with this.


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## Mael (May 7, 2010)

SxR said:


> lol everyone hates muslims



Their crazy cousins aren't doing much to help foster the image of a wholesome Muslim society.


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## ~rocka (May 7, 2010)

I can understand why people would have mixed feelings about this.

A mosque at Ground Zero? Its the opposite of what i thought would happen.


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## The Pink Ninja (May 7, 2010)

If it had been Christians fundamentalists would they have wanted all the nearby Churches to be pulled down?

If it was Homosexual extremists would they want all the gay bars burned and the local YMCA's closed down?


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## Trent (May 7, 2010)

While a "project intended to foster better relations between the West and Muslims" is a great idea, it is somewhat tactless for the building to be located this close to Ground Zero I suppose.

It was bound to rub some people the wrong way. The same project in another part of the city would have been better.


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## xenopyre (May 7, 2010)

a 13 story mosque ?  wait that's even bigger than mecca's , how many muslims are there in NYC ?


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## Bleach (May 7, 2010)

You sound sarcastic in your title. Why is that ?

I need visit the place when its done


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## masamune1 (May 7, 2010)

> He said the glass-and-steel building would include *a 500-seat performing arts venue, a swimming pool and a basketball court.* "There's nothing like it," said Rauf, adding that facilities will be open to all New Yorkers.



This make sit seem a little shallow.........


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## Bleach (May 7, 2010)

Weren't they going to build 2 even bigger towers at Ground Zero? As a memorial? What happened to that..

This mosque could either make NYC either invulnerable or a place of death to an even higher degree..


I'm sure the CIA/FBI had something to do with this and probably has something to do with strategy...


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## Deleted member 174958 (May 7, 2010)

This is bull crap. It's where thousands of people died and they're just gonna cover it up with a Muslim church! I'm sorry this is stupid.


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## Hellrasinbrasin (May 7, 2010)

Its a 13 Story American Death Camp for all Muslims DON'T BE FOOLED OBAMA is going to use this opertunity to kill as many MUSLIMS & non MUSLIMS as possible then Cite Terrorism.


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## Altron (May 7, 2010)

@ New York probably getting a bigger mosque than Mecca. Though I can see why people would be against this. It would be like building a Synagogue in the middle of Gaza.


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## ryne11 (May 7, 2010)

If they got the money and aren't terrorists or aid terrorists, no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to.


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## iander (May 7, 2010)

I see nothing wrong with this and clearly based on the responses here and in the article, better relations are needed.


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## The Pink Ninja (May 7, 2010)

xenopyre said:


> a 13 story mosque ?  wait that's even bigger than mecca's , how many muslims are there in NYC ?



This is NYC

The answer to almost any question of "How many X are there" is _"thousands"_


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## Mael (May 7, 2010)

iander said:


> I see nothing wrong with this and clearly based on the responses here and in the article, better relations are needed.



When a building that represents a religion when taken out of context leads to the destruction of the building once there wants to build itself upon that same sacred ground...yeah it's a problem.

You don't go building a church where a Native American massacre occurred with the intentions of "building better relations."


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## sadated_peon (May 7, 2010)

Mael said:


> When a building that represents a religion when taken out of context leads to the destruction of the building once there wants to build itself upon that same sacred ground...yeah it's a problem.
> 
> You don't go building a church where a Native American massacre occurred with the intentions of "building better relations."


I think you do. 

"represents a religion" is such a vague concept in this case, a group of Muslims were responsible for 9/11, but that doesn't mean that all Muslims are responsible. 

This mosque does not represent the actions of 9/11 terrorists anymore than a church would, or a taco stand would.


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## Mael (May 7, 2010)

sadated_peon said:


> I think you do.
> 
> "represents a religion" is such a vague concept in this case, a group of Muslims were responsible for 9/11, but that doesn't mean that all Muslims are responsible.
> 
> This mosque does not represent the actions of 9/11 terrorists anymore than a church would, or a taco stand would.



Yes but how is this going to look in the eyes of others?  Militant Islam destroyed the towers, so we're going to put something up there that's tragically (despite its best efforts not to be) affiliated with those assholes (militant Muslims)?  Peaceful or not it's a representation of a religion taken WAY OUT OF CONTEXT by a group and thus led to such violence.  No religious site should be there.  Put a memorial up but not a damn mosque.  I'm not saying it's wrong, but purely tactless.  Could you have found somewhere closeby to build it?


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## T.D.A (May 7, 2010)

Good intentions.


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## Mael (May 7, 2010)

T.D.A said:


> Good intentions.



But again...not so great planning.

The butthurt caused by this will be massive.


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## Trent (May 7, 2010)

Mael said:


> When a building that represents a religion when taken out of context leads to the destruction of the building once there wants to build itself *upon that same sacred ground*...yeah it's a problem.
> 
> You don't go building a church where a Native American massacre occurred with the intentions of "building better relations."



It's not _literally _upon it though, just quite close.


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## T.D.A (May 7, 2010)

then again a lot of butthurt is due to bad relations. I guess if it offends people, it won't happen, but programmes need to be implemented to create better relations.


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## sadated_peon (May 7, 2010)

Mael said:


> Yes but how is this going to look in the eyes of others?  Militant Islam destroyed the towers, so we're going to put something up there that's tragically (despite its best efforts not to be) affiliated with those assholes (militant Muslims)?  Peaceful or not it's a representation of a religion taken WAY OUT OF CONTEXT by a group and thus led to such violence.  No religious site should be there.  Put a memorial up but not a damn mosque.  I'm not saying it's wrong, but purely tactless.  Could you have found somewhere closeby to build it?



How is it going to look? 

To me it looks like America is a free country were all people can worship what they will. 
It looks to me that America understands that terrorists who blew up 9/11 are not the same as the American Muslims who live/work/play/raise families/etc.
It looks like Americans have half a brain.  

What and how terrorist take my actions doesn't concern me, I do not change my actions to based on their responses. 

And finally this is going to be 2 blocks away not at ground zero itself.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 7, 2010)

it's symbolic of the victory islam achieved and the losses US suffered in 9/11


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## Bleach (May 7, 2010)

Altron said:


> @ New York probably getting a bigger mosque than Mecca. Though I can see why people would be against this. It would be like building a Synagogue in the middle of Gaza.



No.... This is nowhere near the size of the mosque in Mecca 

When this NYC mosque can hold over 300,000 people, let me know.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 7, 2010)

it will probably get blown up by some extremists.


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## Bleach (May 7, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> it will probably get blown up by some extremists.



Like I said, it's probably a cooperative play with the CIA


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## Black Wraith (May 7, 2010)

Altron said:


> @ New York probably getting a bigger mosque than Mecca. Though I can see why people would be against this. It would be like building a Synagogue in the middle of Gaza.



You'd have to make quite a big skyscraper or flatten a lot of New York to get anywhere near.



> The current structure covers an area of 4,008,020 square metres (990.40 acres) including the outdoor and indoor praying spaces and can accommodate up to four million Muslim worshippers during the Hajj period


Wiki


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## Darth (May 7, 2010)

But it's not being built on Ground Zero. 

It's two blocks away from the place. Which is something of a distance.

And it's not like Mosques encourage terrorism. 

Bloody Ignorant Americans.


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## Dionysus (May 7, 2010)

Make sure there's no Saudi money or general involvement.


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## Vanthebaron (May 7, 2010)

Ishinoue said:


> This is bull crap. It's where thousands of people died and they're just gonna cover it up with a Muslim church! I'm sorry this is stupid.



What Ishi said


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## Aokiji (May 7, 2010)

Altron said:


> @ New York probably getting a bigger mosque than Mecca. Though I can see why people would be against this. It would be like building a Synagogue in the middle of Gaza.



Somebody's confusing anti-zionism with anti-judaism.


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## Chou (May 7, 2010)

Darth said:


> But it's not being built on Ground Zero.
> 
> It's two blocks away from the place. Which is something of a distance.



This, seriously. Did any one read the article? It's being built two blocks away...I could be wrong but isn't that a pretty significant distance? I mean it's not being built over ground zero or across the street...


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## Shinigami Perv (May 7, 2010)

LOL a house for Osama where he can look upon his work. 

Since they are including non-Muslims in community events, I could see them converting some people. Catch more flies with honey than vinegar, as the saying goes.


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## NanoHaxial (May 7, 2010)

Aokiji said:


> Somebody's confusing anti-zionism with anti-judaism.



I might agree if over 90% of the ME didn't have a negative view of Jews rather than Israel.


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## Jin-E (May 7, 2010)

Aokiji said:


> Somebody's confusing anti-zionism with anti-judaism.



So to clarify, as long as Jews from outside Israel had built a synagoge in Gaza, then they would have been OK with it?

Because a few months ago, Palestinians were raging at the fact that Israel restored a 17th century Jerusalem Synagoge that was destroyed in the 1948 war.


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## Ƶero (May 7, 2010)

Dionysus said:


> Make sure there's no Saudi money or general involvement.



This. x1000
Do not trust the Saudi's. Otherwise I see nothing wrong with this.


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## Mael (May 7, 2010)

Zero? said:


> This. x1000
> Do not trust the Saudi's. Otherwise I see nothing wrong with this.



If I find one Saudi name I will fuckraeg...srsly.


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## Jin-E (May 7, 2010)

Saudi-Arabia sure is one popular ally


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## Koi (May 7, 2010)

I can see why this would cause an enormous fuss, especially in light of recent events, but there's really nothing wrong with this.


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## Red (May 7, 2010)

THIS. WON'T. END. WELL.


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## Le Pirate (May 7, 2010)

The majority of Americans are completly intolerant on Muslims. So a bridge betwenn them is needed. But not on the site where the action that caused tham to be hated.


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## Karn of Zeon (May 7, 2010)

SxR said:


> lol everyone hates muslims



Muslims did nothing up till the Afghan's fought back the Soviets and Iran revolting. 

First impression back then: Revolutionaries with mood swings that equal a PMSing spoiled 16 year old.

Now?

9/11, road bombings, burn Oil fields, suicide attacks, crackdown on civilians espxressing their universal rights...

List goes on and you know what impression I am implying.


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## Chou (May 7, 2010)

Red said:


> THIS. WON'T. END. WELL.



I imagine there will be a lot of raging, and then nothing will come of it.


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## Mintaka (May 7, 2010)

Ninja Zone said:


> The majority of Americans are completly intolerant on Muslims. So a bridge betwenn them is needed. But not on the site where the action that caused tham to be hated.


Gee lets build that bridge on top of a minefield shall we?

I dunno about this one.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 7, 2010)

Ninja Zone said:


> The majority of Americans are completly intolerant on Muslims. So a bridge betwenn them is needed. But not on the site where the action that caused tham to be hated.



at the same time the whole city is not hallowed ground or religious land.  How far away from WTC would people say is off limits for a mosque?


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## Adonis (May 7, 2010)

How, exactly, is this supposed to build relations? 

I'm not outraged or any sort of overreaction: it's just a waste of money and to act as if the West is solely guilty for being intolerant thus needs to be the one to appease is laughable. 

Like moderate Christians, all moderate Muslims do is grant legitimacy to their nutjobs through association. "Oh, I know the Quran is filled with bile but that's not MY Islam." Either you're putting on a show in public and secretly _are_ fundamentalist (thus a nutjob) or you're joining the club while excising the crucial rules/standards it claims to uphold (thus a hypocrite.)

Bah, I'd prefer a 13-story liquor store.


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## Vanity (May 7, 2010)

I think it's fine. Let it happen.

I can sort of understand the controversy but it's not like the whole religion of Islam attacked the US or something. People just need to realize that.


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## Altron (May 7, 2010)

Aokiji said:


> Somebody's confusing anti-zionism with anti-judaism.


It was Sarcasm, I suggest you learn it


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 7, 2010)

wish someone would say how close a mosque should be allowed to WTC...


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## Akimichi Farley (May 7, 2010)

Am I the only one who sees this as a small victory against terrorism?


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## Shasta McNasty (May 7, 2010)

Lol my post was deleted.  

Mod: I was completely serious


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## makeoutparadise (May 7, 2010)

Future history text book may read
"and so the christian extremist flew their planes into the 13 story mosk...."

Now that is out of the way on to my real comment

this is reminding me of the mega churches down south are they going to have a casino and halal hamburgers in the food court? will there be an Ikea on the twelefth floor?

13 floors seems abit unlucky they should make it 20 floors to be safe 

They should really have a hot tub and pool at the top or at least a daycare center in case any of the kids get lost, but then again I suppose Allha will help them find their parents...


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## Shasta McNasty (May 7, 2010)

Muslims continue to troll us to this day,


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## Ennoea (May 7, 2010)

I don't see any issue. Its two blocks away.


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## g_core18 (May 7, 2010)

lol religions


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## Pilaf (May 8, 2010)




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## Xyloxi (May 8, 2010)

The Confederate flag says it all really.


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## Elim Rawne (May 8, 2010)

Xyloxi said:


> The Confederate flag says it all really.



The handicapped parking spot says it all


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## Pilaf (May 8, 2010)

I hate the confederate flag as much as I hate Islam. It's possible to be a liberal who is against Islam you know.


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## Girls' Generation (May 8, 2010)

EDIT: Actually, I was thinking of Separation of Church & State but this isn't a law..

I don't know.


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## Xyloxi (May 8, 2010)

Pilaf said:


> I hate the confederate flag as much as I hate Islam. It's possible to be a liberal who is against Islam you know.



It's wrong to group a whole religion as one, saying all Muslims are all the bad kind of extremists we here about is like saying all Christians are the type that blow up abortion clinics. The majority of Christians seem to be rather friendly people, same for Muslims so I really don't see your problem with religion in general.


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## Black Wraith (May 8, 2010)

Says a heck of a lot about you.


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## Al-Yasa (May 8, 2010)

the intention is just to build a mosque for prayer

i mean there are alot of muslims who work in that area who need to pray their 5 prayers


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## Zabuzalives (May 8, 2010)

And can the Americans build 13 story high churches over the ruined ashes of bombed cities in Iraq and Afghanistan? 

to ""strengthen ties and understanding"" ??? 


its inappropriate.


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## Xyloxi (May 8, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> And can the Americans build 13 story high churches over the ruined ashes of bombed cities in Iraq and Afghanistan?
> 
> to ""strengthen ties and understanding"" ???
> 
> ...



The thing is, that's a sign of imperialism whereas building a mosque isn't really, seeing as New York is a global hub so it's likely to have hundreds of thousands of Muslims. It's not like it was your average Muslim who was responsible for 9/11 so there isn't a reason to point the finger at a community who just want somewhere to worship. There were bombings in London committed by Muslims and to be honest I could care less about a 13 story Mosque being built near there as long as it didn't get built on Saudi money.


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## Zabuzalives (May 8, 2010)

Xyloxi said:


> The thing is, that's a sign of imperialism whereas building a mosque isn't really,



I fail to see the difference. 

American christians funding the churches are not necessarely those who dropped the bombs. Hell it can be Europeans funding the churches to make the comparison more correct. 

there are Christians in Iraq and Afghanistan...they need a place to worship. 




Xyloxi said:


> who just want somewhere to worship.



Bullshit. if this was true they would be happy with smaller centres on the outskirts of town or industrial centres. Or worship in a home. 

no they want a 13 story mosque in the middle of New York. 

Apart from the placing, I also have troubles with how large it is. Modesty>pressing your ideology onto the public space. 




Xyloxi said:


> There were bombings in London committed by Muslims and to be honest I could care less about a 13 story Mosque being built near there as long as it didn't get built on Saudi money.



Its about the valid sensitivities surrounding this move. Seeing the west bends over backwards to commodate for muslim sensitivities....might be nice to see the same respect and understanding from the muslims in return. 

so building a huge mosque on this site...is undiplomatic to say the least. 


Any Saudi money and influence needs to be rejected, that goes without saying. No promoting their Salafist Islamofascism.


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## N120 (May 8, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> And can the Americans build 13 story high churches over the ruined ashes of bombed cities in Iraq and Afghanistan?
> 
> to ""strengthen ties and understanding"" ???
> 
> ...



Depends on whose building them.

If america builds it in iraq then it's one thing, but if the arab christians themselves build a place to worship in because they live there, then its a different story.

But then again i see where you are coming from on this issue, it does bring back memories and ill feeling. Like those iraqis/afgans who have lost limbs, friends,homes and family yet they have to be reminded of their pain and loss as they are forced to live the presence of foreign bases on their land...it seems wrong and they have a right to be angry about it.

so i totally see where your coming from bro.


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

Whats amusing is that, a very basic and ONLY way to foster better relations is to do good thing's for the other group.

Yet the method, it seems amongst Muslims, is...expanding their religious practices, as if this will somehow foster 'better relations', generally speaking expanding one's religious activities always annoys people, mostly due to the bullshit nature of religion.


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## N120 (May 8, 2010)

^ They are. They are supporting the local businesses, employing people in various sectors to build,support and sustain the project, have proposed to set up activities for the locals aswell attract visitors  to the area which will help the local economy too etc etc.

good job.


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## Bleach (May 8, 2010)

Confederate flag, from Virginia, and handicapped. 

His opinions mean shit.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 8, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> Bullshit. if this was true they would be happy with smaller centres on the outskirts of town or industrial centres. Or worship in a home.



hmmm, wrong.  WTC is not in the middle of NYC, it's at the south end and to the west.  The middle is where the empire state building is.  Both areas have some grandiose churches that have been there for a long time too.  NY has some of the biggest, nicest churches one can find.


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## Xyloxi (May 8, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> I fail to see the difference.
> 
> American christians funding the churches are not necessarely those who dropped the bombs. Hell it can be Europeans funding the churches to make the comparison more correct.
> 
> there are Christians in Iraq and Afghanistan...they need a place to worship.



Building a thirteen story church in a country where you just invaded doesn't really look that good, whereas Islam is not trying to invade the US.



> Bullshit. if this was true they would be happy with smaller centres on the outskirts of town or industrial centres. Or worship in a home.
> 
> no they want a 13 story mosque in the middle of New York.
> 
> Apart from the placing, I also have troubles with how large it is. Modesty>pressing your ideology onto the public space.



If people want to worship somewhere near where they work, seeing as Muslims pray five times a day they'll need somewhere to go and it's not like other religions are that modest anyway. 


Its about the valid sensitivities surrounding this move. Seeing the west bends over backwards to commodate for muslim sensitivities....might be nice to see the same respect and understanding from the muslims in return. 



> so building a huge mosque on this site...is undiplomatic to say the least.
> 
> 
> Any Saudi money and influence needs to be rejected, that goes without saying. No promoting their Salafist Islamofascism.



It's a couple of streets away from the site, you're acting like this is being built right upon the spot. New York City is a big place so it's most likely a coincidence than anything else to be honest.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 8, 2010)

Xyloxi said:


> Building a thirteen story church in a country where you just invaded doesn't really look that good, whereas Islam is not trying to invade the US.



if someone can tell me the mathematical formula for how tall a mosque can be with relation to distance to WTC site, i might accept some of the complaints...


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## emROARS (May 8, 2010)

I have mixed feelings about this and i'm not even american.


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## Elim Rawne (May 8, 2010)

Bleach said:


> Confederate flag, from Virginia, and *handicapped.
> *
> His opinions mean shit.



Yeah, handicapped people are the scum of the earth and are untermenschen


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## LouDAgreat (May 8, 2010)

I don't care that a mosque is being built along the WTC site. 

I just wish the World Trace Center towers would be rebuilt instead of the piles of shit that are going up there now.


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## Psycho (May 8, 2010)

for some time i expected an even bigger tower to be built, and than even more deaths, good to see i was wrong

lol@ people who get offended, not all muslims are suicide bomber, fucking racists


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## LouDAgreat (May 8, 2010)

Pretenshi said:
			
		

> for some time i expected an even bigger tower to be built, and than even more deaths, good to see i was wrong



They were supposed to build a tower at the height of 1776... Don't know if the new one is going to be like that. The piece of shit that's going up has no significance at all to me.


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## Purgatory (May 8, 2010)

I can see this thing getting continually burned down. It may just be me, but it sounds like a gut churning thing to have. Not gonna lie, I'm a little bit weirded by this, and not because it was the "muslims" that attacked the towers either.


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

N120 said:


> ^ They are. They are supporting the local businesses, employing people in various sectors to build,support and sustain the project, have proposed to set up activities for the locals aswell attract visitors  to the area which will help the local economy too etc etc.
> 
> good job.


No their not, if their intention was simply to help the locals, then there's no need for it to be a mosque, which is explicitly FOR Muslim use.

I have no problem with it legally, i think its a huge fucken insult though, like someone shitting on the graves of dead people.

The Mosque, is a symbol of Islam, and many families of those of 9/11 rightfully consider the religion partially responsible for the tragedy.

I'm an agnostic, but if some massive agnostic organization slaughtered christians in a place while proclaiming agnosticism, i won't be building any godam agnostic school to teach agnosticism at that place.

So they can do it, its their right, i just think their absolutely fuckwits for doing it, and will not shed a tear if conflict emerges because of their stupidity.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 8, 2010)

^willful indifference, it's sort of like an endorsement:  " i don't care if someone bombs that mosque", "I don't care if someone kills the creators of south park", " i don't care if someone is killing jews en masse"....  am i right?


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> ^willful indifference, it's sort of like an endorsement:  " i don't care if someone bombs that mosque", "I don't care if someone kills the creators of south park", " i don't care if someone is killing jews en masse"....  am i right?


I have very little sympathy for willful stupidity, if innocent muslims got attacked, i would care, but if the people proposing it, get a huge backlash from the community, i wouldn't care.

Of course this is just a figure of speech, if they started getting death threats, then i think thats wrong too.

So your wrong.


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## Mintaka (May 8, 2010)

Psycho said:


> for some time i expected an even bigger tower to be built, and than even more deaths, good to see i was wrong
> 
> lol@ people who get offended, not all muslims are suicide bomber, fucking racists


Gee I didn't know msulim was a fucking race now.


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## Petenshi (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> I have very little sympathy for willful stupidity, if innocent muslims got attacked, i would care, but if the people proposing it, get a huge backlash from the community, i wouldn't care.
> 
> Of course this is just a figure of speech, if they started getting death threats, then i think thats wrong too.
> 
> So your wrong.



Whats funny is, you are playing two sides here. It causes just as much trouble by not building it. The pink ninja made a great comment on this, if the hijackers were Christian would we destroy the churches around the site. If they were gay would be destroy the gay bars. The point is, the more we shut muslims out the more animosity it causes. They shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because Americans are ignorant that 9/11 has nothing to do with Muslims as a whole.


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Whats funny is, you are playing two sides here. It causes just as much trouble by not building it. The pink ninja made a great comment on this, if the hijackers were Christian would we destroy the churches around the site. If they were gay would be destroy the gay bars. The point is, the more we shut muslims out the more animosity it causes. They shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because Americans are ignorant that 9/11 has nothing to do with Muslims as a whole.


Uhh no it isn't, if you want to foster better relations, you do good acts, but you do NOT display in front of peoples faces, the very thing they feel was responsible for the tragedy.

It is being courteous to 'walk on eggshells' for the people who's family members died on 9/11.

Or do you think people shouldn't 'walk on eggshells' on someones funeral? i sure as fuck am on my best behaviour during someones funeral.

I am a VERY strong supporter of freedom of speech and all that, but you'd have to be an absolute godam retard not to see that making a 13 story mosque on ground godam zero of 9/11 isn't going to upset people who have strong feelings for 9/11.

I feel their disgust is perfectly justified.


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## Petenshi (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Uhh no it isn't, if you want to foster better relations, you do good acts, but you do NOT display in front of peoples faces, the very thing they feel was responsible for the tragedy.
> 
> It is being courteous to 'walk on eggshells' for the people who's family members died on 9/11.
> 
> ...



Well I don't accept their disgust, because people regard such subjects with double standards. I have no doubt if it was a white Christian man, churches would still be built all around the WTC. We have a strong anti-Muslim bias in our country, and the hatred of our nation by Muslims who get fringe information that are outside the United States, whom could potentially become terrorists will continue to grow when we do these ridiculous acts. We aren't doing this because we want to respect the people killed in 9/11, we are doing this because we are intolerant, for the most part of Muslims and their faith just because some people who happened to be Muslims blew. I am not saying it won't upset people, I am saying that it will always upset people until america tolerates and accepts Muslims and that isn't going to ever happen if we continue to do things like this. The point in the end is to raise awareness of Islam, and highlight common ground. Not allowing the building of this mosque simply because Muslims had a hand in the attack is ridiculous. They aren't building the mosque out of spite simply to anger people. Sorry, ignorance doesn't get to dictate who gets to be treated right.


----------



## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Well I don't accept their disgust, because people regard such subjects with double standards. I have no doubt if it was a white Christian man, churches would still be built all around the WTC. We have a strong anti-Muslim bias in our country, and the hatred of our nation by Muslims who get fringe information that are outside the United States, whom could potentially become terrorists will continue to grow when we do these ridiculous acts. We aren't doing this because we want to respect the people killed in 9/11, we are doing this because we are intolerant, for the most part of Muslims and their faith just because some people who happened to be Muslims blew. I am not saying it won't upset people, I am saying that it will always upset people until america tolerates and accepts Muslims and that isn't going to ever happen if we continue to do things like this. The point in the end is to raise awareness of Islam, and highlight common ground. Not allowing the building of this mosque simply because Muslims had a hand in the attack is ridiculous. They aren't building the mosque out of spite simply to anger people. Sorry, ignorance doesn't get to dictate who gets to be treated right.


Your perspective is the problem, do you think people want to be badgered about Islam? you think they want Muslims to 'educate' (preach) to them about Islam?

No, people just want Muslims to stop doing bad stuff, essentially they want to be left alone.

Normal people don't want to be educated about Islam, why should normal people have their lives intruded on a religions beliefs that they are not part of?

If Muslims want their reputation or their religions reputation to improve, this is what they do.

1.Address the problems in their religion that is causing harm to people
2. Do good acts totally unrelated to their religion.

Do you know what people are sick of? Islam, their sick of it causing problems, their sick of Muslims always pushing it, their just sick of hearing it really.

And making a mosque is not going to improve relations when fundamentally people dont want to hear about this religion anymore.

btw from the article.



> "*I realize it's not all of them*, but I don't want to have to go down to a memorial where my son died on 9/11 and look at a mosque," said retired FDNY Deputy Chief Jim Riches - whose son Jim, a firefighter, was killed on 9/11.
> 
> *"If you ask me, it's a religion of hate,*" said Riches, who did not attend last night's meeting.



Sure sounds like its the religion, not the people, that the families are angry over.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Uhh no it isn't, if you want to foster better relations, you do good acts, but you do NOT display in front of peoples faces, the very thing they feel was responsible for the tragedy.
> 
> It is being courteous to 'walk on eggshells' for the people who's family members died on 9/11.
> 
> ...



it's interesting that you claim to know who i think is responsible for 9/11, and are imposing sanctions on them for me.  onless i don't think it's ur call though, even bush got it wrong.


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> it's interesting that you claim to know who i think is responsible for 9/11, and are imposing sanctions on them for me.  onless i don't think it's ur call though, even bush got it wrong.


What sanctions?

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have to support what they say as correct, it simply means you should not censor them.

I will not restrict these people from attempting to build a mosque, but i will say their dickheads for doing so.


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## Terra Branford (May 8, 2010)

ryne11 said:


> If they got the money and aren't terrorists or aid terrorists, no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to.



Except that people have died there and you should shouldn't put something there, let alone a church.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but don't Muslims think that what happened on 9'11 was a good thing? Or was it that one Muslim who said it on the news? 

If they do...then why are we letting this happen? 

This also.


> I will not restrict these people from attempting to build a mosque, but i will say their dickheads for doing so.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> What sanctions?
> 
> Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have to support what they say as correct, it simply means you should not censor them.
> 
> I will not restrict these people from attempting to build a mosque, but i will say their dickheads for doing so.



ur reasoning makes me think of white guilt.  Random white people hate to be blamed universally for things like slavery and native american killings and what not, and complain when they get blamed for it.  

Interesting parallel if true.


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## Petenshi (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Your perspective is the problem, do you think people want to be badgered about Islam? you think they want Muslims to 'educate' (preach) to them about Islam?
> 
> No, people just want Muslims to stop doing bad stuff, essentially they want to be left alone.
> 
> ...



I am not going to dignify this with an in depth response, as to do so would undermine my position by taking it seriously and I am 100% sure that this would be obvious to anyone else. I will say that the onus of responsibility to cure ones ignorance is not on everyone else. If I don't know how to play football, the knowledge is not going to magically come to me. So, when I badmouth football because I don't know anything about it, it is a fault of me not of football. If you honestly think Islam as a whole is the problem (Unless of course you relinquish that you are talking about religion as a whole), then you have no say here and my debate with you is finished as it is clear you know nothing you are talking about. The ignorance and pure hatred in this post in absolutely astounding. Thank you for proving my point.



> Sure sounds like its the religion, not the people, that the families are angry over.



Thats because they are ignorant .


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## dreams lie (May 8, 2010)

Now, to complete the irony, the next terrorist group should make this mosque as their primary target.


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> ur reasoning makes me think of white guilt.  Random white people hate to be blamed universally for things like slavery and native american killings and what not, and complain when they get blamed for it.
> 
> Interesting parallel if true.


Don't know how you think of it when i am specifically talking about the people trying to build the mosque, they are, of course, responsible for...trying to build the mosque, opposed to random white people and slavery.



			
				Petenshi said:
			
		

> I am not going to dignify this with an in depth response, as to do so would undermine my position by taking it seriously and I am 100% sure that this would be obvious to anyone else. I will say that the onus of responsibility to cure ones ignorance is not on everyone else. If I don't know how to play football, the knowledge is not going to magically come to me. So, when I badmouth football because I don't know anything about it, it is a fault of me not of football. If you honestly think Islam as a whole is the problem (Unless of course you relinquish that you are talking about religion as a whole), then you have no say here and my debate with you is finished as it is clear you know nothing you are talking about. The ignorance and pure hatred in this post in absolutely astounding. Thank you for proving my point.


Yes Islam is definitely part of the problem, i am completely prepared to start a debate, because i have read the Quran, hadith, Al-Tabari's works and Tafsir's notably Ibn Kathir.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 8, 2010)

dreams lie said:


> Now, to complete the irony, the next terrorist group should make this mosque as their primary target.



what terrorist group would do that?


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## @lk3mizt (May 8, 2010)

noble gestures by the Americans :33

i approve :33


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## Petenshi (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Yes Islam is definitely part of the problem, i am completely prepared to start a debate, because i have read the Quran, hadith, Al-Tabari's works and Tafsir's notably Ibn Kathir.



There is not a majority or even a high amount of Islamic followers who are terrorists, thus, Islam is not the problem. The problem is ignorant Islamic followers who are persuaded by other ignorant Islamic followers into thinking we are horrible people, and ignorant Americans. The reason they are able to do this is because there is much evidence that we actually do hate them, and we are horrible people. The war in Iraq isn't helping for example, regardless of why we are there. Preventing Muslims from building mosques for example isn't helping. Taking every opportunity to be intolerant of Muslims in our country isn't helping. And further more, the attitude of our Christian american base towards Islam isn't helping either. While we don't cause terrorism directly, we certainly are promoting it indirectly. When two factions learn about each other, and the truth, we find common ground and conflict is greatly reduced if not eliminated. Haven't you ever been forced to group with someone you hate and realize you had more in common than you thought at first? Islam is as much a problem as Christianity and every other over bearing religion, to be clear.


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## the box (May 8, 2010)

boo fucking whooo


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## N120 (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> No their not, if their intention was simply to help the locals, then there's no need for it to be a mosque, which is explicitly FOR Muslim use.



The locals = muslims too, so it serves their needs. :S



> I have no problem with it legally, i think its a huge fucken insult though, like someone shitting on the graves of dead people.



Muslims didnt use a mosque to attack the trade centers, they used planes flown above NY with arab oil ...stop the planes from flying and ban oil as it symbolises muslims (those evil Saudis).



> The Mosque, is a symbol of Islam, and many families of those of 9/11 rightfully consider the religion partially responsible for the tragedy.



Muslims died in the towers too.



> I'm an agnostic, but if some massive agnostic organization slaughtered christians in a place while proclaiming agnosticism, i won't be building any godam agnostic school to teach agnosticism at that place.



 Do you mean ground zero specifically or NY generally? 



> So they can do it, its their right, i just think their absolutely fuckwits for doing it, and will not shed a tear if conflict emerges because of their stupidity.



okay... Wel,l ill write them an email and tell them maj1n doesnt care about you guys, so there!', who knows maybe they'll care enough to respond with a 'so' if we're lucky.


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## Elim Rawne (May 8, 2010)

ITS A TRAP!


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> There is not a majority or even a high amount of Islamic followers who are terrorists, thus, Islam is not the problem. The problem is ignorant Islamic followers who are persuaded by other ignorant Islamic followers into thinking we are horrible people, and ignorant Americans.


I consider that if the founder of Islam, to which Muslims try to emulate, do these types of things, then Islam is a big problem.

 Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for* the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " *
-http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.260

Furthermore i believe the constant teachings in the Quran that non-muslims are evil/go to hell, also contributes.



			
				Petenshi said:
			
		

> The reason they are able to do this is because there is much evidence that we actually do hate them, and we are horrible people. The war in Iraq isn't helping for example, regardless of why we are there. Preventing Muslims from building mosques for example isn't helping. Taking every opportunity to be intolerant of Muslims in our country isn't helping. And further more, the attitude of our Christian american base towards Islam isn't helping either. While we don't cause terrorism directly, we certainly are promoting it indirectly. When two factions learn about each other, and the truth, we find common ground and conflict is greatly reduced if not eliminated. Haven't you ever been forced to group with someone you hate and realize you had more in common than you thought at first? *Islam is as much a problem as Christianity and every other over bearing religion*, to be clear.


I completely agree, in which case your argument falls flat, since your admitting Islam is a problem (even though you say it isn't due to ignorance).

Who is 'we'? im not American, and i believe America deserves alot of their bad rep because of what they did in Iraq, so your getting nowhere with this argument.

Furthermore, its interesting your completely ok with labelling American's as 'prejudiced' against Muslims as a very generalized statement because of certain actions of Americans, when you like to say Muslim's aren't terrorists nor can we consider them, despite many many instances of Muslims and Islam doing horrible thing's to society.

Your double-standard, and prejudism, is noted.

If your ok with saying 'there is actual evidence we do hate them'  then you sure as hell better say 'there is actual evidence Muslims do hate non-muslims'.


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## @lk3mizt (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Uhh no it isn't, if you want to foster better relations, you do good acts, but you do NOT display in front of peoples faces, the very thing they feel was responsible for the tragedy.
> 
> It is being courteous to 'walk on eggshells' for the people who's family members died on 9/11.
> 
> ...



so... just to be clear, you dont want the mosque to be built right??

and if its built, you'd understand it if families of those who died in 9/11 burned it right??

my next post depends on your answer.


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

@lk3mizt said:


> so... just to be clear, you dont want the mosque to be built right??
> 
> and if its built, you'd understand it if families of those who died in 9/11 burned it right??
> 
> my next post depends on your answer.


I won't oppose them trying to build it, id rather they not, but it's in their rights to do so, although i will be disgusted at it.

If it's built, i am perfectly fine for the families to be outraged over it, no i don't support burning it down.

I don't support violence as a proper response to disgust over something.


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## @lk3mizt (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> I won't oppose them trying to build it, id rather they not, but it's in their rights to do so, although i will be disgusted at it.
> 
> If it's built, i am perfectly fine for the families to be outraged over it, no i don't support burning it down.
> 
> I don't support violence as a proper response to disgust over something.



oh, okay :33

no need for my intended reply :33


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## Xion (May 8, 2010)

Bet no one would complain if it were a Roman Catholic church...


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## Petenshi (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> I consider that if the founder of Islam, to which Muslims try to emulate, do these types of things, then Islam is a big problem.
> 
> Narrated Ikrima:
> 
> ...



Hmmm, it is interesting how our views are much similar than you might think. Personally I think ignorance and religion is the problem, however I felt like you were singling Islam out as a cause for terrorism. Christianity causes just as much terrorism then, as does a ton of other things. We as Americans are predominantly Christian, so of course we are going to have conflict with islam. Of Course I agree that there is evidence Muslims hate Non-Muslims, but very few if any live in america. The fact is, that the reason religion is a problem is intolerance and ignorance. Put Islam and Christianity along side each other and they are a lot a like. We need to highlight common ground, not exacerbate the problem by continuing to take the offensive. So in conclusion, when I say Islam isn't the problem, what I am saying is that ignorance combined with belief in a system like religion is the problem. Islam wouldn't be a problem if we were tolerant and informed, just as Christianity wouldn't be for them. However, let me be clear that there are very few Christians in Muslim society while there are many here in america. That means that we are ignoring the information that is given to us and continue to make the problem worse. Not much information about the west, other than when they here we did something else to the Muslim community is heard there in great detail.


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Hmmm, it is interesting how our views are much similar than you might think. Personally I think ignorance and religion is the problem, however I felt like you were singling Islam out as a cause for terrorism. Christianity causes just as much terrorism then, as does a ton of other things. We as Americans are predominantly Christian, so of course we are going to have conflict with islam. Of Course I agree that there is evidence Muslims hate Non-Muslims, *but very few if any live in america. *The fact is, that the reason religion is a problem is intolerance and ignorance. Put Islam and Christianity along side each other and they are a lot a like. We need to highlight common ground, not exacerbate the problem by continuing to take the offensive. So in conclusion, when I say Islam isn't the problem, what I am saying is that ignorance combined with belief in a system like religion is the problem. Islam wouldn't be a problem if we were tolerant and informed, just as Christianity wouldn't be for them. However, let me be clear that there are very few Christians in Muslim society while there are many here in america. That means that we are ignoring the information that is given to us and continue to make the problem worse. Not much information about the west, other than when they here we did something else to the Muslim community is heard there in great detail.


I think alot of Muslims live in America, so not sure where your getting your information from.

The problem with your perspective, is that alot of people want to stop the harmful acts perpetrated because of the religions beliefs, this does not mean we get 'common ground', but we highlight why it is wrong.

'Common ground' is meaningless if you don't address the problem, suppose we found 'common ground' in something, that doesn't really help us in tackling how women are treated in Muslim communities.

At some point, if people do believe in something which is harmful, that will have to be directly addressed to stop it, instead of just silently looking on as more and more people are harmed in the hopes everything will go away.


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (May 8, 2010)

yes, bring all muslims in new york together. bring them all in one place. it's a good idea, lets get to it.


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## Petenshi (May 8, 2010)

maj1n said:


> I think alot of Muslims live in America, so not sure where your getting your information from.
> 
> The problem with your perspective, is that alot of people want to stop the harmful acts perpetrated because of the religions beliefs, this does not mean we get 'common ground', but we highlight why it is wrong.
> 
> ...



There is a comma there for a reason, the second clause refers to Muslims who hate Non Muslims.

Your saying this is wrong and this is right, when what you don't realize is you can be wrong. Rather than me force my beliefs on people, I seek to end conflict by highlighting common ground. I don't agree with Nazi's, but I know that some of them still obey the law even though they would like not to. Thats the difference. You may think they are oppressive to women, but its their society not yours. We are talking about conflict here anyways, how women are treated in Muslim communities has nothing to do with terrorism or the wars caused by the conflict. The only harm comes from the conflict between to parties who hate each other because they disagree. Toleration and understanding is key.


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## maj1n (May 8, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> There is a comma there for a reason, the second clause refers to Muslims who hate Non Muslims.
> 
> Your saying this is wrong and this is right, when what you don't realize is you can be wrong. Rather than me force my beliefs on people, I seek to end conflict by highlighting common ground. I don't agree with Nazi's, but I know that some of them still obey the law even though they would like not to. Thats the difference. You may think they are oppressive to women*, but its their society not yours.* We are talking about conflict here anyways, how women are treated in Muslim communities has nothing to do with terrorism or the wars caused by the conflict. The only harm comes from the conflict between to parties who hate each other because they disagree. Toleration and understanding is key.


And that is whats wrong with your attitude, your 'tolerance' is simply turning a blind eye to people suffering.

What you tolerate are those who hurt others, while giving no thought to the victim, a classic case of putting the perpetrator above the victim.

Let me give you an example, Obama and America (and other countries) are well known to turn a blind eye to the Saudi's, even helping them, primarily because of oil.

Now the Saudi is still exporting Wahhabism, which results in Terrorism, and their country is still quite oppressive.

No 'finding common ground' or should i say, diplomacy, has done anything about that, When Obama chooses NOT to criticize the Saudi's, and instead helps them through various means, this is your 'common ground' that does nothing to solve the conflict that they create.

When a community, or a large group of people, do bad stuff, you speak of 'tolerance' as if it is a virtue, i do not consider 'tolerating' others causing people harm a virtue.


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## Mintaka (May 9, 2010)

> You may think they are oppressive to women, but its their society not  yours.


Oh hey they beat children with bats BUT IT'S OBVIOUSLY THERE SOCIETY SO WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK!?

I'm sorry if I'm against horribly barbaric actions like that.  It would appear it is you who have the skewed view of tolerance around here petenshi.


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## Watchman (May 9, 2010)

Xion said:


> Bet no one would complain if it were a Roman Catholic church...



I would, but I'm a dirty heathen who'd rather they make something secular for people of all faiths to share, so yeah.


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## Purgatory (May 9, 2010)

Xion said:


> Bet no one would complain if it were a Roman Catholic church...



I would, and funnily enough I'm a christian.



~Kaio-Cam~ said:


> yes, bring all muslims in new york together. bring them all in one place. it's a good idea, lets get to it.



Do I hint an..evil plan?


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## Fr?t (May 9, 2010)

At first I was like 

Then I was like


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## Zabuzalives (May 9, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Whats funny is, you are playing two sides here. It causes just as much trouble by not building it. The pink ninja made a great comment on this, if the hijackers were Christian would we destroy the churches around the site. If they were gay would be destroy the gay bars. The point is, the more we shut muslims out the more animosity it causes. They shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because Americans are ignorant that 9/11 has nothing to do with Muslims as a whole.



shit comment. 

are we destroying mosques in NY??

this is about building a huge religious building on a site where thousands died because of fanatics of said religion.



Lets make a good comparison. 

Abortion clinic gets blown up by white christians. Now other christians want to build a 13 story church on the rubbles. As a way to ""foster better relations""　

unless your a hypocrite you would fully support this and call everyone having problems with this anti-christian, ignorant, and biased right?? 


How about europeans building 13 story churches on the rubbles of some mistakenly bombed villages in Iraq/Afganistan? To ""foster better relations"" ???


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## Zabuzalives (May 9, 2010)

Xyloxi said:


> Building a thirteen story church in a country where you just invaded doesn't really look that good, whereas Islam is not trying to invade the US.



is it not? 

also use europeans not participating in invasion building the churches. then comparison is more fitting. 




Xyloxi said:


> If people want to worship somewhere near where they work, seeing as Muslims pray five times a day they'll need somewhere to go and it's not like other religions are that modest anyway.



then rent/build somewere else. 



Xyloxi said:


> It's a couple of streets away from the site, you're acting like this is being built right upon the spot. New York City is a big place so it's most likely a coincidence than anything else to be honest.



unlucky coincidence. Build it somewhere else and lower its size. Stop pushing your ideology so much, especially on the graves of innocent dead.


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## T4R0K (May 9, 2010)

A 13 stories mosque... What for !? I mean, does that mean 13 floors or are stories an american measurement system for buildings ? Because if the are floors, the hell they need it so big ?!!! I've never heard of a building sized mosque ! That's, like, too much !

And no, the stuff about it being not far from Ground 0 is not what stopped me here to reply.


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## Mintaka (May 9, 2010)

T4R0K said:


> A 13 stories mosque... What for !? I mean, does that mean 13 floors or are stories an american measurement system for buildings ? Because if the are floors, the hell they need it so big ?!!! I've never heard of a building sized mosque ! That's, like, too much !
> 
> And no, the stuff about it being not far from Ground 0 is not what stopped me here to reply.


They meant floors, stories in this case meaning 13 floors.

Thats what I was wondering why the hell does a religious place need a 13 story center of worship?


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## Rikudou (May 9, 2010)

I give it 2 months untill Christian/Jewish fundies bomb it/jam airplanes in it...


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## Razgriez (May 9, 2010)

Well this sparked some unneeded tension. 

Now if they build it its going to make it look like they gave in and if they dont build it they will just look like they are intolerable to religion.

The question should be do we really need a Mosque in New York and does it need to be that big? If not then dont build it. Of if you do dont make it so big so its not becoming a massive symbol of sorts.


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## MF NaruSimpson (May 9, 2010)

T4R0K said:


> A 13 stories mosque... What for !? I mean, does that mean 13 floors or are stories an american measurement system for buildings ? Because if the are floors, the hell they need it so big ?!!! I've never heard of a building sized mosque ! That's, like, too much !
> 
> And no, the stuff about it being not far from Ground 0 is not what stopped me here to reply.



if i had to take a guess, i would think it's a community center akin to what ymcas are for jewish people.  i've never heard of a mosque so big either , but if you can fit classes or a rec center or performance spaces, then that might be the purpose.  Otherwise i can't imagine the purpose of a 13 flr "mosque".  seems like a waste of money.


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## Karsh (May 9, 2010)

...

No matter where you build anything like a mosque, it WON'T foster better relations and to say that that simple act could is just superficial.
Creating a religious centre or the like can be the RESULT of bettering relations.

Better relations stand within the education of people, which is how hate fosters when you lack a grounded education.

Guess what I'm trying to say is, in the end, there's nothing wrong with creating a mosque especially since it will be created 2 blocks away from ground 0 (not exactly in another country either though, lol), but if you want to claim something betters relations, dig a bit deeper by creating a centre where any group can visit and listen to different points of view, have more student exchange programs, try creating a more unbiased way of teaching kids at school and include more world knowledge at all ages and strive for social tolerance.


And I would like to give a big 'shame on you' to all of the bias posters in here who wrote about how 'stupid all americans are'.
You bear the flag of tolerance where nobody should box in all muslims (and nobody should) yet you box in all americans in the same way.
I'm quite disappointed with the lot of you for being so hypocritical.


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## Geert Wilders PM (May 9, 2010)

Do not like...


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## TenshiNeko (May 9, 2010)

I can see where people would be upset by the mosque...at least at first. They really shouldn't be. There have been so many violent crazy Christian groups. David Koresh in Waco Tx, the group in Jonestown, even Charles Manson claimed to be the new messiah. If a large wacko Christian group had bombed the towers in the name of Jesus no one would be blaming all of Christianity. We would realize it was a lunatic fringe group. Nobody would complain about a  church being built in the area. I'm not a Muslim, but I know enough to know Islam isn't a religion of hate and that the 9/11 creeps don't represent regular Muslims. Maybe a large mosque with events open to all New Yorkers might be a good thing  for everyone.


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## Zabuzalives (May 10, 2010)

TenshiNeko said:


> They really shouldn't be. There have been so many violent crazy Christian groups. David Koresh in Waco Tx, the group in Jonestown, even Charles Manson claimed to be the new messiah. If a large wacko Christian group had bombed the towers in the name of Jesus no one would be blaming all of Christianity.



Neither are most people in this case. 



TenshiNeko said:


> We would realize it was a lunatic fringe group.


 
in certain religions and certain time periodes. Those ""fringe groups"" arent that small. 




TenshiNeko said:


> Nobody would complain about a  church being built in the area.



this is a lie. 

people would complain. What about the atheists?? 

Most wont complain because they are christian themselves and connect the church to something part of their group/culture...and do not make the connection to the atrocity. 

If a christian bombs an abortion clinic and a christian group wants to build a 13 story church right on the doorstep of the rubble and graves of the deceased...people will complain. 

If a French organisation wants to build 13 story churches in the bomb to shit villages in Iraq and Afghanistan...people would complain.


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## impersonal (May 10, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> shit comment.
> 
> are we destroying mosques in NY??
> 
> ...


It's *two blocks away* from ground zero.

According to google maps, there are *3 churches* already whithin two blocks of the WTC. A roman catholic, an anglican and an orthodox church. And *2 synagogues*.

I think you were misled by chibibaki's misleading article. You should know to be more careful with the stuff she posts, there's a 1/2 chance of it being disinformation.


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## Al-Yasa (May 10, 2010)

i think it being 13 is a bit of a myth

unlikley they will do it that big

its gna be quite big as a lot of muslims work there, there will be alot of tourists and also normal citizens

it will probably be more than a mosque as it could be a place to learn n teach Islam - a school 

 cannot wait


----------



## Fuzzly (May 10, 2010)

Oh no, they're building a structure that will fit in perfectly and add a place for everyone to swim, play ball, and otherwise improve their lives! How could they do that near ground zero!

This play sounds like an Islamic YMCA.

Islam did not do WTC, fucking think people. If you can't separate the religious fanatics who are willing to kill/hurt people from the rest, then all us Christians are abortion bombing, aids contributing, child molesting monsters, aren't we?


----------



## abcd (May 10, 2010)

I propose building mosques beside all important buildings 

It has many advantages
1) Shows the tolerance of the people
2) When extremists think about ramming their planes or bombing they would be worried about harming the Mosque and ppl in it

Its a win win situation


----------



## impersonal (May 10, 2010)

abcd said:


> I propose building mosques beside all important buildings
> 
> It has many advantages
> 1) Shows the tolerance of the people
> ...



It's not "besides", it's two blocks away. Given the sheer enormous size of the wtc, that's a grand total of about 30 blocks and in this area a "block" is tens of stories high on average. It's normal that there would be a mosque somewhere in there; as I wrote there are already 5 churches/synagogues.

The article is just a load of hate mongering from extremists and xenophobes.


----------



## siyrean (May 10, 2010)

Who ever thought this would foster good relations is a fucking moron. It's a giant target for hate. 

I'd say no less than four blocks away would be the gracful distance. You have to take into account the NY skyline, and it also depends on which side they're building on. I havn't been there in a few years but from what I can remeber of the area, four blocks will keep it from being immidiatly visible and therefor not a constant reminder of what in NY, that religion is most known for.

In a perfect world, I'd say this was a great idea. Unfortunitly it's just comming off as the Muslem community looking arrogant. Some needs to explain the word tact to these planners.


----------



## Fuzzly (May 10, 2010)

siyrean said:


> Who ever thought this would foster good relations is a fucking moron. It's a giant target for hate.
> 
> I'd say no less than four blocks away would be the gracful distance. You have to take into account the NY skyline, and it also depends on which side they're building on. I havn't been there in a few years but from what I can remeber of the area, four blocks will keep it from being immidiatly visible and therefor not a constant reminder of what in NY, that religion is most known for.
> 
> In a perfect world, I'd say this was a great idea. Unfortunitly it's just comming off as the Muslem community looking arrogant. Some needs to explain the word tact to these planners.



You can't plan for retards not being able to tell obviously different people apart.

"That's not cool bro you can't build a basketball court here my brother was killed by Scottie Pippin right down the street."

Anyone who associates Islam with WTC close enough to be offended by this mosque is so ignorant that the mosque is the perfect place for them. Once they go in, they will realize that not all Muslims want to kill them and eat their babies. Maybe the fucktards will start thinking of Muslims as people instead.


The problem here isn't the Muslim community.


----------



## vivEnergy (May 10, 2010)

Yet another "official" center to breed those little homegrown terrorists at cheap prices with imams coming from pakistan and yemen, plus raise money for holy jihad and what else.

Or maybe the homeland security could actually start doing its job and put someone in the place.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 10, 2010)

Sounds like a bad idea, but if they want to chance it they can. Though I like how some people in this thread were defending Muslims that wanted to kill over a drawing in another thread because it was like a slap in the face BUT in this instance, this seems like just as bad an idea in execution, even though they're no doing anything wrong.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (May 10, 2010)

siyrean said:


> Who ever thought this would foster good relations is a fucking moron. It's a giant target for hate.
> 
> I'd say no less than four blocks away would be the gracful distance. You have to take into account the NY skyline, and it also depends on which side they're building on. I havn't been there in a few years but from what I can remeber of the area, four blocks will keep it from being immidiatly visible and therefor not a constant reminder of what in NY, that religion is most known for.
> 
> In a perfect world, I'd say this was a great idea. Unfortunitly it's just comming off as the Muslem community looking arrogant. Some needs to explain the word tact to these planners.



four blocks? i asked the question of distance b4 bc i thought the excercise of saying arbitrary numbers would bring me laughs, and it has  great success!!

2 blocks from WTC, hell, even 1 block in NYC is far enough that one wouldn't even have a clue the building was there unless they knew about it and were looking for it.  it's NYC, a metropolis! This isn't the great plains people!


----------



## Kahvehane (May 10, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> four blocks? i asked the question of distance b4 bc i thought the excercise of saying arbitrary numbers would bring me laughs, and it has  great success!!
> 
> 2 blocks from WTC, hell, even 1 block in NYC is far enough that one wouldn't even have a clue the building was there unless they knew about it and were looking for it.  it's NYC, a metropolis! This isn't the great plains people!



This is actually a valid point. If no one raised hell about the mosque, most people would go about their business in ignorance of its very existence. But, I can still see why this would rub people the wrong way.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (May 10, 2010)

Light Artist said:


> This is actually a valid point. If no one raised hell about the mosque, most people would go about their business in ignorance of its very existence. But, I can still see why this would rub people the wrong way.



to that effect, i started to make the point in the "draw mohammed" thread, most of the complainers in here are just drawing attention _to_ the mosque.  that would seem like the wrong approach to me


----------



## abcd (May 10, 2010)

impersonal said:


> It's not "besides", it's two blocks away. Given the sheer enormous size of the wtc, that's a grand total of about 30 blocks and in this area a "block" is tens of stories high on average. It's normal that there would be a mosque somewhere in there; as I wrote there are already 5 churches/synagogues.
> 
> The article is just a load of hate mongering from extremists and xenophobes.



I wasn't talking about this specific mosque.. IT was my general interpretation of the responses of most people 

Personally I am apprehensive about the Idea..... I guess its not so good in short term... but it does good in the long run


----------



## Zabuzalives (May 10, 2010)

Fuzzly said:


> Oh no, they're building a structure that will fit in perfectly and add a place for everyone to swim, play ball, and otherwise improve their lives! How could they do that near ground zero!
> 
> This play sounds like an Islamic YMCA.
> 
> Islam did not do WTC, fucking think people. If you can't separate the religious fanatics who are willing to kill/hurt people from the rest, then all us Christians are abortion bombing, aids contributing, child molesting monsters, aren't we?



Lets put a big sign promoting the catholic church on the lawn of everyone who was molested by a priest to ""improve relations"" 

And build 13 story churches next to the rubble of bombed abortion clinics. 
And in destroyed villages in Iraq and Afghanistan. 



The terrorists were influenced by Islamic ideology. Performed their acts in the name of Islam. 

When then promoting Islam near this tragic place (which is what it is, promoting and spreading the religion under the guise of ""bettering relations"") use some fucking tact. Not hard to ask eh? 



The same religion that had an influence in the killing of your loved ones gets promoted and propagandized on the footsteps on their graves. 

You cannot put this away as ""biased islamaphobia"" or ""people generalize and are stupid for thinking every muslim wants to kill them"" 

If you cannot see the legitimate reasons for having second thoughts or ill sentiment..your biased yourself. 






Now that i read its 2 blocks away its less of an issue for me. Depends a bit on how it will fit in surroundings though. Should not be too conspicuous.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (May 10, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> The terrorists were influenced by Islamic ideology. Performed their acts in the name of Islam.
> 
> When then promoting Islam near this tragic place (which is what it is, promoting and spreading the religion under the guise of ""bettering relations"") use some fucking tact. Not hard to ask eh?



describe "tact" in this matter, for me, since you seem to be a chief complainer in this topic.  I've asked several questions that relate towards tact, so maybe you can clue me in.


----------



## maj1n (May 10, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> describe "tact" in this matter, for me, since you seem to be a chief complainer in this topic.  I've asked several questions that relate towards tact, so maybe you can clue me in.


If the aim is to 'improve relations' its best not to try and expand one's religion (which is always annoying) over an area where a great tragedy occurred because of said religion.

It would be like an Imam going to the funeral of a person whom died because of the religion, and preaching his religion to the dead persons family to 'improve relations'.

Even if he was preaching why his religion is a religion of peace, that's not going to improve relations.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (May 10, 2010)

maj1n said:


> If the aim is to 'improve relations' its best not to try and expand one's religion (which is always annoying) over an area where a great tragedy occurred because of said religion.



for that to be true most people in NY would have to believe that islam as an organized religion was behind 9.11, and not just some radicals, or something else all together.  Now i never heard the universal declaration that islam was behind the 9/11 attacks, so unless i missed something, it's just not the unanimous belief.


----------



## Fuzzly (May 10, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> Lets put a big sign promoting the catholic church on the lawn of everyone who was molested by a priest to ""improve relations""
> 
> And build 13 story churches next to the rubble of bombed abortion clinics.
> And in destroyed villages in Iraq and Afghanistan.



1) Catholic priests are a part of the Catholic Church. They are the same organization. Not all Muslims belong to terrorist networks. To associate everyone in a religion with a removed group of radicals is fucking retarded and you know that.

2) There's nothing wrong with building churches next to rubble of bombed abortion clinics. Not all Christians bomb abortion clinics. Is this hard to understand?




> The terrorists were influenced by Islamic ideology. Performed their acts in the name of Islam.



We freed Iraq in the name of Democracy. Does that mean that the real reason we went there was for Democracy? Even if it was (which it wasn't), does it mean that all democrats were for war?



> When then promoting Islam near this tragic place (which is what it is, promoting and spreading the religion under the guise of ""bettering relations"") use some fucking tact. Not hard to ask eh?



The only people who need tact are those who associate all Muslims with terrorists. 



> The same religion that had an influence in the killing of your loved ones gets promoted and propagandized on the footsteps on their graves.
> 
> You cannot put this away as ""biased islamaphobia"" or ""people generalize and are stupid for thinking every muslim wants to kill them""



That's exactly what this is. If you are stupid enough to actually blame the religion than you're pathetic. Pussies need to suck it up. "Oh no, a Muslim hurt my brother, now I just can't bare to be by a Mosque."

That's fucking retarded. 



> If you cannot see the legitimate reasons for having second thoughts or ill sentiment..your biased yourself.



I'm biased against stupid people yes.


----------



## maj1n (May 10, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> for that to be true most people in NY would have to believe that islam as an organized religion was behind 9.11, and not just some radicals, or something else all together.  Now i never heard the universal declaration that islam was behind the 9/11 attacks, so unless i missed something, it's just not the unanimous belief.


Many people know that it was perpetrated by Muslims, then having a mosque planted right there isn't exactly going to make them think well of the religion, if anything it will reinforce the idea that Muslims don't give a shit about the death of those in 9/11 and want to expand their religion regardless.




			
				Fuzzly said:
			
		

> We freed Iraq in the name of Democracy. Does that mean that the real reason we went there was for Democracy? Even if it was (which it wasn't), does it mean that all democrats were for war?


Except it is part of the Islamic ideology to spread its religion violently.


----------



## Farih (May 10, 2010)

People forget how big a NYC block is.  How many of you frequent that city a lot?  Two blocks is very far away--but the distance isn't even the problem here.  Apparently from the reactions here, the sight of a Mosque is enough to offend people


----------



## TenshiNeko (May 10, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Except it is part of the Islamic ideology to spread its religion violently.



It's part of Christian history too. The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc. 
If you listen to some Christian preachers they are truly scary



maj1n said:


> Many people know that it was perpetrated by Muslims, then having a mosque planted right there isn't exactly going to make them think well of the religion, if anything it will reinforce the idea that Muslims don't give a shit about the death of those in 9/11 and want to expand their religion regardless.



If they shouldn't allow the mosque then they shouldn't allow any Catholic churches within 2 NYC blocks of anyone ever molested by a priest. Sounds fair to me. 
Doesn't having them any closer than that reinforce the idea that the Catholic church doesn't give a shit about the children and wants to expand their religion regardless? Isn't this equal to what you've said?


----------



## Miss Fortune (May 10, 2010)

Islam.

The religion to be commercialized.


----------



## Zhongda (May 10, 2010)

What do they have to do? Get nuked by them before you totally reject their way of life?

HEY AMERICANS, MUSLIMS HATE YOU FOR SO MANY REASONS!! DON'T SUPPORT THEIR WAY OF LIFE, IT'LL ONLY BITE YOU IN THE ASS LATER.

Muslims are evil and stupid and want you to join them or face condemnation (in this life or the next). Help stop them gaining influence by deconstructing their evil ways.


----------



## Fuzzly (May 10, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Except it is part of the Islamic ideology to spread its religion violently.



You could say the same of Christianity, and there would be tons of examples to back it up. 

But that would be assuming that everyone in a religion feels the same way about everything based on the actions and teachings of some, right? I mean, we know very well that even Christians opinion varies greatly on just about every aspect on religion. 

This would be ignoring the fact that there are plenty of examples of Muslims, Christians, and Jews living together peacefully, exchanging ideas and cultures without inter-religious violence. Tanzania being a modern example of one (minus the jews, insert tribal beliefs). 

You can't keep pretending Muslims are a homogeneous in their beliefs.


----------



## xenopyre (May 11, 2010)

Zhongda said:


> What do they have to do? Get nuked by them before you totally reject their way of life?
> 
> HEY AMERICANS, MUSLIMS HATE YOU FOR SO MANY REASONS!! DON'T SUPPORT THEIR WAY OF LIFE, IT'LL ONLY BITE YOU IN THE ASS LATER.
> 
> Muslims are evil and stupid and want you to join them or face condemnation (in this life or the next). Help stop them gaining influence by deconstructing their evil ways.


That's a bit harsh dont you think , as much as I agree with you about stopping or at least slowing the progress wave of religions of all kind , and think that Islam like many other religions needs to be fundamently reformed ,most of mulsims especially those who live in the west are moderat so I think this step would show how tolerant Newyorkers are .


----------



## maj1n (May 11, 2010)

TenshiNeko said:


> If they shouldn't allow the mosque then they shouldn't allow any Catholic churches within 2 NYC blocks of anyone ever molested by a priest. Sounds fair to me.
> Doesn't having them any closer than that reinforce the idea that the Catholic church doesn't give a shit about the children and wants to expand their religion regardless? Isn't this equal to what you've said?


1. You seem to be under the impression i give some kind of allowance to Christianity.
2. You seem to be under the impression they shouldn't allow the mosque to be built.

Both complete misunderstandings on your part.

I think Christianity is also responsible for many bad stuff in its history, i also believe that Catholic Churches aren't improving relations by expanding their religion to any area noted for child molestation.

That i think their making thing's worse for themselves doesn't mean i think they should be stopped, like i think it should be allowed you act like an asshole, doesn't mean i think it will help you improve relations with anyone.


			
				Fuzzly said:
			
		

> You could say the same of Christianity, and there would be tons of examples to back it up.
> 
> But that would be assuming that everyone in a religion feels the same way about everything based on the actions and teachings of some, right? I mean, we know very well that even Christians opinion varies greatly on just about every aspect on religion.
> 
> ...


That a religion influences its practioner's to act or believe in a certain way means it influences those kinds of events (such as terrorism).

That not everyone in that religion adheres to such beliefs or practices doesn't mean the religion doesn't endorse it.

I know that there were many self-described nazi's, who didn't want to kill or hurt Jews, their idealogy still supported it regardless.


----------



## Spirit (May 11, 2010)

Xyloxi said:


> It's wrong to group a whole religion as one, saying all Muslims are all the bad kind of extremists we here about is like saying all Christians are the type that blow up abortion clinics. The majority of Christians seem to be rather friendly people, same for Muslims so I really don't see your problem with religion in general.



It's ok. He's just wishing all atheists are cross-dressing straight-edge bisexual vegan males, and sit down while peeing. 



maj1n said:


> ...because i have read the Quran, hadith, Al-Tabari's works and Tafsir's notably Ibn Kathir.



bama
with shitty level comprehension, I must add.



T4R0K said:


> A 13 stories mosque... What for !? I mean, does that mean 13 floors or are stories an american measurement system for buildings ? Because if the are floors, the hell they need it so big ?!!! I've never heard of a building sized mosque ! That's, like, too much !
> 
> And no, the stuff about it being not far from Ground 0 is not what stopped me here to reply.



13, because you know...like Friday the 13th, the 13th disciple, 13th floor of that mosque will be 



Zhongda said:


> What do they have to do? Get nuked by them before you totally reject their way of life?
> 
> HEY AMERICANS, MUSLIMS HATE YOU FOR SO MANY REASONS!! DON'T SUPPORT THEIR WAY OF LIFE, IT'LL ONLY BITE YOU IN THE ASS LATER.
> 
> Muslims are evil and stupid and want you to join them or face condemnation (in this life or the next). Help stop them gaining influence by deconstructing their evil ways.



Oh, I'm hurt. 

I hate American. Boohoo.

I hate you Mael! I hate you because you're white and a non-Muslim and a Catholic and an American and served as an officer in US Army. You're  but I have to hate you because according to this Zhongda guy, you are the manifestation of everything a Muslim should hate.

And you disagree to the mosque! I HATE YOU! /wrist.

Also, lol@"their evil ways". 



xenopyre said:


> That's a bit harsh dont you think , as much as I agree with you about stopping or at least slowing the progress wave of religions of all kind , and think that Islam like many other religions needs to be fundamently reformed ,most of mulsims especially those who live in the west are moderat so I think this step would show how tolerant Newyorkers are .



Fret not. He's just trying to live up his internet persona. On the internet, he's an ex-Muslim who's bitter towards Islam, Muslims and "their evil ways". I know a couple or more deists who are much more convincing with their atheistic internet persona. This guy is laughable.

=========================================

That aside, I'm honestly quite surprised by this move. In this regard, I truly feel it's _the_ place to be a little sensitive and give respect to the family of the innocent victims to mourn without being distracted and feel harassed. For good or for bad, 9/11 was carried out in the name of Islam. To erect its symbol there might (read: most probably) be misunderstood as implying the victory of Islam _as interpreted by the group that carried it out_; which in my view, is bad. If you're the type of Muslim that think "good or bad interpretation does not matter, Islam is Islam and infidel is infidel", then sorry to say, you deserve to be stereotyped.

Unless the victims' families consent, if I have the power to decide, I won't build it there. It's unnecessary. Even then I think it's better to build it somewhere else where we can worship in peace. Why there, seriously? It's not a place with the best memory anyway.

Plus, Muslims can pray anywhere clean, you don't actually need a mosque to pray, let alone a big mosque. Friday prayers don't require a mosque, just an imam/preacher and 40 sane, adult Muslims as the congregation. Definitely no mention of a mosque for it to be carried out.

I'm not against it, I'm just admitting it's not the brightest idea. Just thinking about it pains a little bit.


----------



## Nawheetos (May 11, 2010)

It's not like they're building a mosque on Ground Zero or something.  It's 2 blocks away.  I don't see a problem


----------



## Zabuzalives (May 11, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> describe "tact" in this matter, for me, since you seem to be a chief complainer in this topic.  I've asked several questions that relate towards tact, so maybe you can clue me in.



Do not make an overly conspicuous mosque. 

Or build one at a further distance. 


Thats showing tact..that is showing you care about ""bettering relations"". 






Fuzzly said:


> 1) Catholic priests are a part of the Catholic Church. They are the same organization.



so? unless your generalizing this should not matter. Comparison stands. 
Those promoting the catholic church are not all child molesters Fuzzly. 

So i guess your ok for others to promote their religion in the face of those who have had a traumatic experience/past negatively influenced by said religion. Then apply this on all cases.  



Fuzzly said:


> Not all Muslims belong to terrorist networks. To associate everyone in a religion with a removed group of radicals is fucking retarded and you know that.



they are followers of the same religion. 

actually read what i fucking write??? Its funny you people keep accusing others to think/act like ""all muslims are terrorists"" while in reality those posts are hard to find in this thread. 



Fuzzly said:


> 2) There's nothing wrong with building churches next to rubble of bombed abortion clinics. Not all Christians bomb abortion clinics. Is this hard to understand?



I think this is a serious lack of empathy and tact towards the victims. 

See?? not a word about generalizing or accusing christians as all being clinic bombers...Is this hard to understand?? 



Fuzzly said:


> We freed Iraq in the name of Democracy. Does that mean that the real reason we went there was for Democracy? Even if it was (which it wasn't), does it mean that all democrats were for war?



just answer the question. 

13 story churches on top of the bombed Iraqi villages. yes or no? Is promoting your religion ""bettering relations"" and are all sentiments/problems the Iraqi's might have with it purely a result of their Christianaphobia and bias? Of their stupidity to generalize all christians as crusaders?? 



Fuzzly said:


> The only people who need tact are those who associate all Muslims with terrorists.



pffff nice bias answer. 

I'll go draw swastika's next to jewish cemetaries now. 
Only people needing tact are those darn ""islamaphobes"" 



Fuzzly said:


> That's exactly what this is. If you are stupid enough to actually blame the religion than you're pathetic.



I am realistic enough to realize ideologies and scriptures can influence people both negatively and positively. 

I am realistic enough to know that the Quran is not purely a book about rainbows and unicorns and has plenty of material to incite intolerance and violence. 



Fuzzly said:


> Pussies need to suck it up. "Oh no, a Muslim hurt my brother, now I just can't bare to be by a Mosque."
> 
> That's fucking retarded.



1. I care little for those acting out of self interest and then BSing about it. (promoting Islam by building mosques is not ""bettering relations"") 

2. To have people blatantly pushing their religion, while this same religion had a role in the whole atrocity. Is something those whose wounds are still fresh from the loss of lost ones can find hard to take. 

Now I can empathise with them and can understand them taking issue. I think more tact is required. Which ironically would be a actual way of ""bettering relationships""!!!!

You think they are ""pussies"" 

that are our stances. 


So dont give me more BULLSHIT arguments about ""generalizing"" seeing that has nothing to do with my points 




Fuzzly said:


> I'm biased against stupid people yes.



self hatred is a terrible thing Fuzzly, how are you holding up?


----------



## Glued (May 11, 2010)

I'm a muslim and I think this is just putting fire near a gas pipe.

Why on Earth would you build 13 story Masjid near a place where there might be resentment towards muslims. This is not building better relationships, and anyone who says that it is, is a naive, ignorant, unrealistic moron. Way to stand out, 13 stories. Really, might as well paint yourself red and jump in a Spanish bull pen.

Isn't there a slight chance that some New Yorker is going to be insulted. Isn't there a chance that there are still bitter feelings about what happened that day? Isn't there a chance that it might boil over and someone will commit an act of violence.

This is insensitive and tactless.


----------



## Zabuzalives (May 11, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Why on Earth would you build 13 story Masjid near a place where there might be resentment towards muslims. This is not building better relationships, and anyone who says that it is, is a naive, ignorant, unrealistic moron. Way to stand out, 13 stories.
> 
> This is insensitive and tactless.



agree with above. thank you for your objectivity. 

Exactly my point. 
Only the Politically Correct crowd will have a harder time dismissing you as being ""islamaphobe"" and ""thinking all muslims are terrorists"".


----------



## Farih (May 11, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Why on Earth would you build 13 story Masjid?



That's the better question, I'm a Muslim as well.

Two NYC blocks is still far enough (that's around a half mile on trafficless days).  And from the description of the facilities it will have, it will probably look nothing like a mosque.


----------



## Al-Yasa (May 11, 2010)

Nawheetos said:


> It's not like they're building a mosque on Ground Zero or something.  It's 2 blocks away.  I don't see a problem



This....


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2010)

I don't remember if this was mentioned, but the dedication ceremony is on the anniversary of the attacks, the ten year anniversary. I'm sorry but it sounds more and more like this is wholly intentional.


----------



## Petenshi (May 14, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't remember if this was mentioned, but the dedication ceremony is on the anniversary of the attacks, the ten year anniversary. I'm sorry but it sounds more and more like this is wholly intentional.



Hmmm, well that is disheartening. I must admit, I don't support it if they are doing it simply because of that.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Hmmm, well that is disheartening. I must admit, I don't support it if they are doing it simply because of that.


I expect something to happen to it, like terrorist-type something. And I doubt a lot of people will care but if the government handles it well we'll come out smelling like roses in the deal.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (May 14, 2010)

so what if they're opening day is on 9/11.  it can easily be said to be to prevent 9/11s.  You people are grasping at straws looking for bad things in this.  It's pure islamic hatred too.  Or is 9/11 supposed to be a special day in _their _calender now?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2010)

narutosimpson said:


> so what if they're opening day is on 9/11.  it can easily be said to be to prevent 9/11s.  You people are grasping at straws looking for bad things in this.  It's pure islamic hatred too.  Or is 9/11 supposed to be a special day in _their _calender now?



It seems more like you're grasping for straws to try and justify something that could easily be seen as in bad taste no matter what the intention. Its obvious how silly what you're saying would sound if anyone who was planning this thought about the alternatives.


----------



## Banhammer (May 14, 2010)

It's an incredibly horible idea but



"He said the glass-and-steel building would include a 500-seat performing arts venue, a swimming pool and a basketball court. "There's nothing like it," said Rauf, adding that facilities will be open to all New Yorkers."

Godamnit, that sounds good


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (May 14, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> It's an incredibly horible idea but
> 
> 
> 
> ...



of course it's good, jewish people put up the same things, and let everyone in, they're good places. but still mainly for people of their faith.


----------



## Queen Vag (May 14, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> Only the Politically Correct crowd will have a harder time dismissing you as being ""islamaphobe"" and *""thinking all muslims are terrorists""*.


you seem to think so, by looking at your sig.


> muslim support for terrorism an EXTREME minority??
> Proof tells otherwise....


nice.


----------



## Spirit (May 15, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> It's an incredibly horible idea but
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What. Entertainment and sport inside a house of worship? Preposterous.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2010)

Val said:


> you seem to think so, by looking at your sig.
> 
> nice.


How does saying that something isn't an extreme minority suddenly translate to being all?


----------



## Zabuzalives (May 15, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't remember if this was mentioned, but the dedication ceremony is on the anniversary of the attacks, the ten year anniversary. I'm sorry but it sounds more and more like this is wholly intentional.



What a way to push your religion 

Yeah its surely bettering the relationships and nothing tactless about it at all.







narutosimpson said:


> so what if they're opening day is on 9/11.  it can easily be said to be to prevent 9/11s.?



easily said=/=it being true....




narutosimpson said:


> You people are grasping at straws looking for bad things in this.  It's pure islamic hatred too.



is that why even several muslims agree it is bad taste?? 

is that why when i reverse it into a scenario of a church being built next to a bombed abortion clinic or Iraqi village everyone treats it differentely and try to make excuses to not to face their bias?? 

Do you even think before you blurt out utter nonsense?? 



narutosimpson said:


> Or is 9/11 supposed to be a special day in _their _calender now



if they really care about bettering relations they would take more care with other groups open wounds and sensitivities.







Val said:


> you seem to think so, by looking at your sig.
> 
> nice.



The sig proves that intolerance and support for terrorism is not an extreme minority as some try to wave it off to be. It is the result of a long debate with a stubborn radical muslim on this site. 

so no one can not stick their head in the sand about the problems with this in the Islamic world. 

""Oh its an EXTREME minority...oh its a handfull ruining it for the rest."" 

this clearly shows when you have 5-10% of the population adhering to extremist views..this is a SIZABLE minority. a sizable problem which needs to be adressed...NOT IGNORED. 

Hell we see whole countries fall to fascist interpretations of Islam. And you BULLSHIT me how its only a handfull...or how they are ""no true muslims"" (no true scotsman fallacy). 

You are just one of the Political Correct crowd. Where pointing out the truth. Valid critiscism. A truth some would rather ignore. Gets deemed as ""racist/discriminating/Islamaphobic"" hoping for a knee-jerk reaction of white guilt on my part to shut me up. 

aint gonna happen. Instead its time for you to wake up and smell the roses. 


Now I got a question for you...what do you gain by pretending a problem is far less serious then it is in reality???


----------



## Queen Vag (May 15, 2010)

my bad. I overlooked the "extreme" part of your sig and I thought you were insinuating radicalism was in the majority.

I apologize.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2010)

Val said:


> my bad. I overlooked the "extreme" part of your sig and I thought you were insinuating radicalism was in the majority.
> 
> I apologize.



No you didn't, don't try to back pedal out now. The word extreme is the only word in all capital letters.


----------



## Purgatory (May 15, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't remember if this was mentioned, but the dedication ceremony is on the anniversary of the attacks, the ten year anniversary. I'm sorry but it sounds more and more like this is wholly intentional.



Someone's treading into deep territory


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

Zabuzalives said:


> is that why even several muslims agree it is bad taste??
> 
> is that why when i reverse it into a scenario of a church being built next to a bombed abortion clinic or Iraqi village everyone treats it differentely and try to make excuses to not to face their bias??
> 
> Do you even think before you blurt out utter nonsense??



Zabuza...our whole country is filled with Christians and other sects relating to it. No one except a very few fair minded people in america and atheists(Which are a minority, mind you) would care if they built a church by a bombed a abortion clinic. Perhaps not because they actually wouldn't care but because the media wouldn't report it. Media's usually also have a Christian bias, even sometimes the liberal stations. There is no way this would be a big deal to people in general. The fact is, Muslims are a minority and that is why this is being attacked so vehemently.  



> if they really care about bettering relations they would take more care with other groups open wounds and sensitivities.



Perhaps, but as you can tell in the Muhammad cartoon threads the american public and therefore also probably a lot of Christians aren't very sensitive either. This is part of what I talk about, it is a cycle of these tiny attacks against each other and then one day the tension gets to big.




> The sig proves that intolerance and support for terrorism is not an extreme minority as some try to wave it off to be. It is the result of a long debate with a stubborn radical muslim on this site.



Even if you are right, you still can't attack Muslims as a whole. The problem is ignorance and intolerance, not Islam or Extremist Muslims. Extremist Muslims are ignorant of us, that is why they do what they do. Their hate is built off lies(Although these days the lies are becoming truer everyday) that are told to them. The proof in this is that I can teach Islam to a person and them not become a terrorist.




> ""Oh its an EXTREME minority...oh its a handfull ruining it for the rest.""
> 
> this clearly shows when you have 5-10% of the population adhering to extremist views..this is a SIZABLE minority. a sizable problem which needs to be adressed...NOT IGNORED.
> 
> ...



Heres the real truth. Muslims in the east obviously are not getting information as much as we do. Have you noticed that uneducated Christians are just as extreme? Our society isn't wrapped in strife like society over there is for the most part. You have to have perspective that the key to this problem is ending ignorance not continuing to limit things for Muslims over here who are obviously not extremists.


----------



## Zabuzalives (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Zabuza...our whole country is filled with Christians and other sects relating to it. No one except a very few fair minded people in america and atheists(Which are a minority, mind you) would care if they built a church by a bombed a abortion clinic.



Fact is there are those who would care. And all pandering liberals would agree it is in bad taste. 



Petenshi said:


> There is no way this would be a big deal to people in general. The fact is, Muslims are a minority and that is why this is being attacked so vehemently.



nonsense. 
there are far more factors involved then ""attacking the minority"". There are some legitimate concerns here. 

ahh the victim card...its so easy to play...




Petenshi said:


> Perhaps, but as you can tell in the Muhammad cartoon threads the american public and therefore also probably a lot of Christians aren't very sensitive either. This is part of what I talk about, it is a cycle of these tiny attacks against each other and then one day the tension gets to big.



Major difference is that in that thread there are also a lot of those excusing/justifying violence. Which is a bit worse then being an insensitive troll and as such rightfully gets the greater focus. 

Listen, in some cases you CANNOT tiptoe around an issue as it affects us all and wont be resolved otherwise. Sometimes you need to but heads. 
We cannot Compromize on this freedom....We cannot back down from our own ideals and beliefs...this is not conflict resolvement or tolerance..this is cowardly caving in to violence and abandoning part of what we are. 

Sometimes an insult is a truth one rather not hear. 
You cannot get a thicker skin and more self control when never tested!!! 



Petenshi said:


> Even if you are right, you still can't attack Muslims as a whole.



I do not and this is the same for most having concerns in this thread. 



Petenshi said:


> The problem is ignorance and intolerance, not Islam or Extremist Muslims. Extremist Muslims are ignorant of us, that is why they do what they do. Their hate is built off lies(Although these days the lies are becoming truer everyday) that are told to them. The proof in this is that I can teach Islam to a person and them not become a terrorist.



Religions are affected by their believers. If we do not oppose these fascists interpretations of Islam..you might find yourself in a situation wheir THEIR view is the majority accepted ""truth"" and YOU are the ""non-muslim"" 

And lets be honest and agree that the Abrahamic religions have plenty in their scripture to justify violence/agression/intolerance. 



Petenshi said:


> Heres the real truth. Muslims in the east obviously are not getting information as much as we do. Have you noticed that uneducated Christians are just as extreme?



Education has a strong effect yeah...but dont be naive and think this is the only answer. 

A lot of the higher terrorists were HIGHLY EDUCATED.



Petenshi said:


> Our society isn't wrapped in strife like society over there is for the most part. You have to have perspective that the key to this problem is ending ignorance



Is Saudi Arabia and IRan in that much strife??? And yet they have fundamentalist/fascist interpretations of Islam widespread. Dont underestimate the danger of certain ideologies. 


You are making a major error in thought here. 

agression and intolerance do NOT purely stem from a lack of information. 
Taking knowledge of our western position does not mean they empathize or sympathise. 



Petenshi said:


> not continuing to limit things for Muslims over here who are obviously not extremists.



obviously?? you got home grown muslim terrorists walking around. Though I must be fair and admit you Americans got it much easier then europe with its muslim minorities.


----------



## maj1n (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:
			
		

> The proof in this is that I can teach Islam to a person and them not become a terrorist.


If you taught the entirety of Islam, and they did follow it entirely by action, they would be terrorists.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

maj1n said:


> If you taught the entirety of Islam, and they did follow it entirely by action, they would be terrorists.



Maj1n, that is an ignorant post. That is true of all religion and it is obvious that you are anti religion when this is only about Islam. So, its fine to be frustrated with religion but please stop being ignorant about the issue at hand. People don't have to follow everything, that is why you see Christians who don't offer their children as sacrifices to God. Terrorism is not Islam. Islam is not Terrorism. Terrorism is ignorance.


----------



## maj1n (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Maj1n, that is an ignorant post. *That is true of all religion* and it is obvious that you are anti religion when this is only about Islam. So, its fine to be frustrated with religion but please stop being ignorant about the issue at hand. People don't have to follow everything, that is why you see Christians who don't offer their children as sacrifices to God. *Terrorism is not Islam. Islam is not Terrorism. Terrorism is ignorance*.


Your saying 'its true that if you taught the entirety of a religion to a person and they followed it, they would be terrorists'..

Then at the bottom you say Islam is not terrorism.

That is a contradictory statement.

I'll give you an example here.

This is part of Islam and is sharia (Islamic law).


Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for *the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "*
-http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.260

Now if you teach the entirety of Islam to a person, and they followed it, they would follow that, to which Islam is an oppressive and i would say, terrorist religion.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Your saying 'its true that if you taught the entirety of a religion to a person and they followed it, they would be terrorists'..
> 
> Then at the bottom you say Islam is not terrorism.
> 
> ...



Right, but only ignorance allows people to follow everything 100%.


----------



## Razgriez (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Right, but only ignorance allows people to follow everything 100%.



I think he supported his position well making you look pretty bad in the process. Just take it like a man and accept that you were wrong. No one likes those that beat around the bush.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

Razgriez said:


> I think he supported his position well making you look pretty bad in the process. Just take it like a man and accept that you were wrong. No one likes those that beat around the bush.



You obviously didn't read his post then. However, I know you are a conservative and an american so my liberal sense tells me you have a Muslim bias too. Maj1n dislikes religion as a whole, and is using Islam as the face of it rather than saying what he really means. That being the case, he offered a scenario which rarely happens(Unless ignorance is involved). The scenario is that someone follows everything by the book, every word. Just as you use the Guns don't kill people, people kill people. I can say here that people are choosing to become terrorists and it isn't Islam. The reason they choose, just like every extremist is because they believe thats the way it has to be. There is Old Islam and now there is New Islam. Old Islam is by the book, New Islam is where people realize that you don't have to take everything by the book. Same as Christianity in our country. He is labeling all Islam and Muslims the same, when I am trying to make a distinction. Maj1in can try to say the 'New' Muslims I speak of aren't Muslims because they don't follow 100%, which is fine, but for all intensive purposes that doesn't matter. Heres the facts, All Muslims are not terrorists. This means that obviously what I say has merit.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> You obviously didn't read his post then. However, I* know you are a conservative and an american so my liberal sense tells me you have a Muslim bias too.* Maj1n dislikes religion as a whole, and is using Islam as the face of it rather than saying what he really means. That being the case, he offered a scenario which rarely happens. The scenario is that someone follows everything by the book, every word. Just as you use the Guns don't kill people, people kill people. I can say here that people are choosing to become terrorists and it isn't Islam. The reason they choose, just like every extremist is because they believe thats the way it has to be. There is Old Islam and now there is New Islam. Old Islam is by the book, New Islam is where people realize that you don't have to take everything by the book. Same as Christianity in our country. He is labeling all Islam and Muslims the same, when I am trying to make a distinction. Maj1in can try to say the 'New' Muslims I speak of aren't Muslims because they don't follow 100%, which is fine, but for all intensive purposes that doesn't matter. Heres the facts 1) All Muslims are not terrorists. This means that obviously what I say has merit.




Looks like your bias is showing.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Looks like your bias is showing.



The second is not a bias. You see it on T.V all the time, and in every news source that there is threat from Islam and Muslims. Not to mention after 9/11 everyone is uneasy about Muslims. It is my empirical observation that Americans in general have a bias against Muslims. How could they not with our media pandering it every minute? The conservative one I will give you but that was out of frustration. Either way, it doesn't mean my points are nullified.


----------



## Razgriez (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi. What little credibility you had with me just went out the window when you just assumed I was biased against muslims due to any conservative values I have.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

Razgriez said:


> Petenshi. What little credibility you had with me just went out the window when you just assumed I was biased against muslims due to any conservative values I have.



Thats fine, you can hide not having an argument over a silly statement I made which I admitted was a mistake and out of frustration.


----------



## Razgriez (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Thats fine, you can hide not having an argument over a silly statement I made which I admit was a mistake.



I didnt destroy the debate. You did when you made that statement. That leads me to believe your going to have a negative and highly biased opinion against me.

However. I already know your going to just disagree out of the fact we share differing opinions through confrontations in the past. So it would be pointless and futile to even begin in the first place.


----------



## fantzipants (May 15, 2010)

SxR said:


> lol everyone hates muslims



not me. i love muslims and jews


----------



## maj1n (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Maj1n dislikes religion as a whole, and is using Islam as the face of it rather than saying what he really means.


I dislike blind belief, if a religion was rationale, i'd be all for it, it just so happens Islam isn't.



			
				Petenshi said:
			
		

> I can say here that people are choosing to become terrorists and it isn't Islam. The reason they choose, just like every extremist is because they believe thats the way it has to be. There is Old Islam and now there is New Islam. Old Islam is by the book,


Your contradicting yourself, your saying terrorists are like that because of following 'old Islam', thats still Islam my friend whether you want to make a distinction between types.



			
				Petenshi said:
			
		

> New Islam is where people realize that you don't have to take everything by the book. Same as Christianity in our country. He is labeling all Islam and Muslims the same, when I am trying to make a distinction. Maj1in can try to say the 'New' Muslims I speak of aren't Muslims because they don't follow 100%, which is fine, but for all intensive purposes that doesn't matter. Heres the facts, All Muslims are not terrorists. This means that obviously what I say has merit.


Uhmm you don't get to make new types of religion based on whether someone follows a bit of it or not.

The basis of Islam is the Quran, and the Sunnah, and they are filled with thing's that qualify the religion as a terrorist religion.

That some muslims don't follow these thing's doesn't at all qualify your statement that 'Islam isn't a terrorist religion'.

*In fact it is purely illogical, you are saying that the only way for a Muslim not to be a terrorist Is not to follow parts of the religion*.

That is by logic, explicitly saying the religion is a terrorist religion.

If i would be poisoned if i drink from a cup, but not if i don't, that means the cup is poisonous.

Pretty godam simple actually.


----------



## Hand Banana (May 15, 2010)

Stop ganging up on Petenshi. We all know what he said didn't make sense. Fallback fella.


----------



## sadated_peon (May 15, 2010)

Hand Banana said:


> Stop ganging up on Petenshi. We all know what he said didn't make sense. Fallback fella.



I think it is the fact that he doesn't know how to use the enter key that really get people going.


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## Mintaka (May 15, 2010)

> People don't have to follow everything


Y halo thar cherry picking.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

maj1n said:


> I dislike blind belief, if a religion was rationale, i'd be all for it, it just so happens Islam isn't.
> 
> 
> Your contradicting yourself, your saying terrorists are like that because of following 'old Islam', thats still Islam my friend whether you want to make a distinction between types.
> ...



There are Muslims who aren't terrorists. All I am pointing out is that you are saying Islam is a terrorist religion. Thats all well and fine, I don't like religion either however when you are saying that you are denouncing every Muslim as a terrorist when that isn't the case. I am fine with saying that they aren't "Muslims" but then we are just playing word games and I hate playing word games in arguments. For all intensive purposes they are Muslims as every major part of Islam they follow.
They are just reasonable enough to rule out whatever stuff you are calling terrorist ideals. This goes for Christianity too and tons of other religions/myths/cults Etc that people follow. 

However, religion isn't going away anytime soon and since I believe we can teach the Muslims and subsequent Muslims about our culture so that they will be tolerant and educate them. Secondly, we need to be educated of their culture and respect it. We are different, they aren't going to change and neither are we. No one needs to die, or start wars, or Etc just because we disagree with each other.


----------



## Razgriez (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> There are Muslims who aren't terrorists. All I am pointing out is that you are saying Islam is a terrorist religion. Thats all well and fine, I don't like religion either however when you are saying that you are denouncing every Muslim as a terrorist when that isn't the case. I am fine with saying that they aren't "Muslims" but then we are just playing word games and I hate playing word games in arguments. For all intensive purposes they are Muslims as every major part of Islam they follow.
> They are just reasonable enough to rule out whatever stuff you are calling terrorist ideals. This goes for Christianity too.
> 
> However, religion isn't going away anytime soon and since I believe we can teach the Muslims and subsequent Muslims about our culture so that they will be tolerant and educate them. Secondly, we need to be educated of their culture and respect it. We are different, they aren't going to change and neither are we. No one needs to die, or start wars, or Etc just because we disagree with each other.



I thought that according to his previous explanations that if you follow the religion to the T you essentially are a terrorist in essence. Essentially those that follow the teachings of Islam completely you are to utilize barbaric and murderous methods against non believers and those that sin against the religion. I think that is what hes trying to point out.

Not all muslims are terrorists. Hell Im betting a lot of insurgents are either horribly misguided individuals that have been brainwashed by propaganda and hate speeches  or are just natural sociopaths who just want to kill people.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

Razgriez said:


> *I thought that according to his previous explanations that if you follow the religion to the T you essentially are a terrorist in essence. Essentially those that follow the teachings of Islam completely you are to utilize barbaric and murderous methods against non believers and those that sin against the religion. I think that is what hes trying to point out.*
> 
> Not all muslims are terrorists. Hell Im betting a lot of insurgents are either horribly misguided individuals that have been brainwashed by propaganda and hate speeches  or are just natural sociopaths who just want to kill people.



Right, and I think he misinterprets my commentary to be disagreement as a whole and defending that type of Islam when it is just a disagreement against that practice of Islam. I mean, if I am not an extremist Muslim and I don't want to participate in the barbaric methods what would you call me? For the most part if I said I went to a mosque and Etc people would label me as such. Then people associate me with extremism and there in lies the problem. We either need to come up with a new term, or realize the difference.

And yes, thats what I am saying. Praying to Allah is not inherently dangerous and neither is participating in some of the other rituals, so we know it is possible for Muslims not to be that way. Instead of trying to kill everyone we can who believes that we need to try to educate and end ignorance. We also need to work on tolerance, part of which is what I spoke of in the first paragraph.


----------



## Razgriez (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> Right, and I think he misinterprets my commentary to be disagreement as a whole and defending that type of Islam when it is just a disagreement against that practice of Islam. I mean, if I am not an extremist Muslim and I don't want to participate in the barbaric methods what would you call me? For the most part if I said I went to a mosque and Etc people would label me as such. Then people associate me with extremism and there in lies the problem. We either need to come up with a new term, or realize the difference.
> 
> And yes, thats what I am saying. Praying to Allah is not inherently dangerous and neither is participating in some of the other rituals, so we know it is possible for Muslims not to be that way. Instead of trying to kill everyone we can who believes that we need to try to educate and end ignorance. We also need to work on tolerance, part of which is what I spoke of in the first paragraph.



I would call you a fool for not sticking to the correct teachings of your religion. If your a true devout whatever religion you are and you form it around your own personal preferences to justify your ideals then I think your wrong.

However you are free to choose whatever you want to believe in. Its just how the book says though. Your a non-believer and not a true muslim/christian/jew/whatever.

Thats a whole religious debate that would never end though. Its comparing apples to oranges and those that stick to faith dont usually accept reason.


----------



## Draffut (May 15, 2010)

Mael said:


> Yeah I kinda don't see this going over well, noble intentions or not.
> 
> Conservafags will b'awwww and invoke the spirits of Rush and Beck to their sides.  Libfags will cheer thinking it'll promote their interesting view of tolerance and cultural ties.  The rest of us will be scratching our heads with slight apprehensiveness.



Conservafags need to realise that their "Government shouldn't get involved with the private sectior" stance would obviously have to extend to everything, even the shit they don't personally like like this.

But they would never pull their heads out of their asses long enough to realise this.


----------



## maj1n (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:
			
		

> I don't like religion either however when you are saying that you are denouncing every Muslim as a terrorist when that isn't the case


Wrong, i am saying, quite explicitly before too, that if Muslims followed the entirety of their religion through actions, they would become terrorists.

That you admit Islam has terrorist teachings in it proves my point, but at no point did i say every muslim is a terrorist.

So your the one who misunderstood.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

maj1n said:


> Wrong, i am saying, quite explicitly before too, that if Muslims followed the entirety of their religion through actions, they would become terrorists.
> 
> That you admit Islam has terrorist teachings in it proves my point, but at no point did i say every muslim is a terrorist.
> 
> So your the one who misunderstood.



If you are not trying to say that, then what do you gain from posting it has terrorist teachings if you know that not all Muslims are terrorists? This brings us all the way back to square one. If thats really what you were doing in every post you would clearly separate them.


----------



## maj1n (May 15, 2010)

Petenshi said:


> If you are not trying to say that, then what do you gain from posting it has terrorist teachings if you know that not all Muslims are terrorists? This brings us all the way back to square one. If thats really what you were doing in every post you would clearly separate them.


By explaining to people that Islam has many bad elements to it.

Your attitude is one that presumes those who disagree with a religion are inherently prejudiced against its practitioners.

It's funny how someone who speaks of not presuming a people are evil, actually does so himself.


----------



## Petenshi (May 15, 2010)

maj1n said:


> By explaining to people that Islam has many bad elements to it.
> 
> Your attitude is one that presumes those who disagree with a religion are inherently prejudiced against its practitioners.
> 
> It's funny how someone who speaks of not presuming a people are evil, actually does so himself.



Right, I get that now but what does that have to do with all the threads we have been discussing. In each one I assumed you were attacking its practitioners because we were in a threads more about practitioners than Islam itself. 

I am not perfect. Trying is all we as people can do. If I say I am committed to trying and doing and I follow through that is all I can do. I am not naive into thinking I can't make mistakes.


----------



## Shibo Hebihime Uirusu (May 15, 2010)

I would be that one who would burn it down. Family friends died at 9/11, I see it highly offensive to me and other loved ones.


----------



## Draffut (May 16, 2010)

Shibo Hebihime Uirusu said:


> I would be that one who would burn it down. Family friends died at 9/11, I see it highly offensive to me and other loved ones.



I find organised religion in general to be extremely offensive, should I go blow up the Saint Patrick's Cathedral in NYC?


----------



## Razgriez (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> I find organised religion in general to be extremely offensive, should I go blow up the Saint Patrick's Cathedral in NYC?



Yes.You should. Make sure there are lots of children present too.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (May 16, 2010)

if its gonna offend ignorant ppl, i'd rather have it not built.. would cause more tension.. though building a 13 story one does attract unneeded attention..


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

Khris said:


> if its gonna offend ignorant ppl, i'd rather have it not built.. would cause more tension.. though building a 13 story one does attract unneeded attention..


How is it ignorant to take offense? That's like us going to Hiroshima and building a statue of Winston Church Hill and Harry Truman having tea and overshadowing the whole town on the fiftieth anniversary of the Atomic Bombing. 

Not only do people have every right to be offensive, but its a much more valid offense than the one you seemed to have over a drawing in the other thread. People dying = reason to get offended. Drawing = reason to ?????

What are you mad that some trees died?


----------



## T4R0K (May 16, 2010)

They really plan to open it on 9-11 ? I'd like a source for it, please. I need more that "I think I remember I heard".

If it's the case, it's a rather dick move. For me, it's like the serbs building a memorial to serbian greatness and glorifying war criminals on the day Sarajevo started getting shelled the leaving daylights.

And that's exactly what the serbs are doing, every year, so bosnians are not really happy about it.

I don't consider the location a problem, the size is uncongruous, but the opening day being 9-11 is definitely a bad idea. 

Open it a month later for civil peace's sake.


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> How is it ignorant to take offense? That's like us going to Hiroshima and building a statue of Winston Church Hill and Harry Truman having tea and overshadowing the whole town on the fiftieth anniversary of the Atomic Bombing.
> 
> Not only do people have every right to be offensive, but its a much more valid offense than the one you seemed to have over a drawing in the other thread. People dying = reason to get offended. Drawing = reason to ?????
> 
> What are you mad that some trees died?


Stupidest analogy ever. 

Even brother facepalm can't cover this.



T4R0K said:


> They really plan to open it on 9-11 ? I'd like a source for it, please. I need more that "I think I remember I heard".
> 
> If it's the case, it's a rather dick move. For me, it's like the serbs building a memorial to serbian greatness and glorifying war criminals on the day Sarajevo started getting shelled the leaving daylights.
> 
> ...



It's not the same thing, you're being silly. No one is glorifying 9/11 and the people who are opening this are not affliated with Al-Qaeda. 

Also its 2 blocks away which is shit-loads of a distance in NY.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Stupidest analogy ever.
> 
> Even brother facepalm can't cover this.



Yeah give me a real argument, its a pretty damn good analogy considering how people are acting like its a total coincidence. It's opening on the anniversary in the same city just blocks away, you think that its a bad analogy? Why because we were actually at war when we bombed Japan? 

I think your above argument might be the stupidest in the thread. But that's just me.


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (May 16, 2010)

maj1n said:


> I dislike blind belief, if a religion was rationale, i'd be all for it, it just so happens Islam isn't.
> 
> 
> Your contradicting yourself, your saying terrorists are like that because of following 'old Islam', thats still Islam my friend whether you want to make a distinction between types.
> ...


No, its like any other holy books they have their violent sides, I mean just look at the old testament that's more hardcore than any Islam.

Point being, the religion itself doesn't change its main principles however just like any other religion it tries to cope with the current times.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah give me a real argument, its a pretty damn good analogy considering how people are acting like its a total coincidence. It's opening on the anniversary in the same city just blocks away, you think that its a bad analogy? Why because we were actually at war when we bombed Japan?
> 
> I think your above argument might be the stupidest in the thread. But that's just me.


Yes because you were in war with them. Is it that hard to grasp? and those two were the causes of it.

They aren't opening a mosque called Al-qaeda, or Osama the great or whatever.

It might be in bad taste to some but your analogy of churchill and truman is retarded beyond belief.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Yes because you were in war with them. Is it that hard to grasp? and those two were the causes of it.
> 
> They aren't opening a mosque called Al-qaeda, or Osama the great or whatever.
> 
> It might be in bad taste to some but your analogy of churchill and truman is retarded beyond belief.



So what I was suggesting would not be in bad taste too, explain how its a bad analogy if the idea of bad taste is conveyed. That's why I lengthened the time, to demonstrate it's not an immediate thing. 

What it seems to me like is that you don't know what you're talking about and you don't have a real argument.


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## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> So what I was suggesting would not be in bad taste too, explain how its a bad analogy if the idea of bad taste is conveyed. That's why I lengthened the time, to demonstrate it's not an immediate thing.
> 
> What it seems to me like is that you don't know what you're talking about and you don't have a real argument.



Because in your analogy it doesn't serve as a way to increase the connections yours is pretty much the same as the serb one above . Its the Allies saying Ha ha we fucked up hiroshima good here this will remind you of it everyday.

Whilst the other is from people unrelated to Islamic extremists who are condemned by the Islamic world, and trying to better up the relations.

If you can't spot the difference and your exaggeration of bad taste... then I can't do anything else.


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## Al-Yasa (May 16, 2010)

its a mosque

ppl should chill out


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## T4R0K (May 16, 2010)

After a little look at the article, I found this :


> Khan said her group hopes *construction on the project will begin* by the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks



I thought it was the opening, but it's the start of the construction.

Still not a bright idea. Start the week later, or a month later. 

And I predict sabotage by angry family members.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

T4R0K said:


> After a little look at the article, I found this :
> 
> 
> I thought it was the opening, but it's the start of the construction.
> ...


I had read open on another site, though I could see how they could fuck that up too. But as you said, still not a good idea.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> How is it ignorant to take offense? That's like us going to Hiroshima and building a statue of Winston Church Hill and Harry Truman having tea and overshadowing the whole town on the fiftieth anniversary of the Atomic Bombing.


its ignorant to think a mosque would be a symbol related to those events.. just read the comments in the article, its unjustifiable to be offended by the religion itself.. now unless the mosque is indeed made to remind the ppl of that tragic event, than yes its kind of offensive.. its just a mosque built 2 blocks of that location..   

second, did Islam do those attacks? no.. so there's no symbolism.. now unless they built a 13 story Saudi/Afghani building at that location.. then its something else.



> Not only do people have every right to be offensive, but its a much more valid offense than the one you seemed to have over a drawing in the other thread. People dying = reason to get offended. Drawing = reason to ?????
> What are you mad that some trees died?



like someone stated in the other thread, everyone has the right be offended(even if it was based on ignorance).. the thing is, weather it was made for the ppl to be offended is another story..


the cartoonist drew those pix knowing ppl are gonna get offended.. but did it regardless.. i stated if ppl would be offended(weather based on ignorance or not) they shouldn't do it..


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## mystictrunks (May 16, 2010)

Sounds like it will be interesting. It will be fun to hear all the sides to this once construction begins, especially towards the beginning and end.


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## Luxiano (May 16, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> I'm a muslim and I think this is just putting fire near a gas pipe.
> 
> Why on Earth would you build 13 story Masjid near a place where there might be resentment towards muslims. This is not building better relationships, and anyone who says that it is, is a naive, ignorant, unrealistic moron. Way to stand out, 13 stories. Really, might as well paint yourself red and jump in a Spanish bull pen.
> 
> ...



Pretty much this.


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## Queen Vag (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> No you didn't, don't try to back pedal out now. The word extreme is the only word in all capital letters.



I regress. Perhaps I should have explained myself better-I didn't exactly overlook the word "extreme", but I thought "extreme minority" was a euphemism, and that in his statement he _was_ insinuating Islam was a religion of violence, if you look at it this way, that would suggest Islamic followers as being supporters of violence and terrorism. If that was the case, many Muslims would find offense to that, some may do. I didn't actually think he was being politically correct until I read in the link.


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## The Hypocrite (May 16, 2010)

I think it's exactly what Al Quaeda had in mind. In their minds, they just conquered New York.

Think about it. Whenever a major nation would conquer another, they'd tear down the other's most monumental buildings and build their own in it's place.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (May 16, 2010)

Nobody would talk about this if it wasn't clase to WTC site. Why they didn't took an other place ?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

Le Male said:


> Nobody would talk about this if it wasn't clase to WTC site. Why they didn't took an other place ?


That's the issue, why that place? Why that time? Its obviously to dredge up some  feeling.


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## Razgriez (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That's the issue, why that place? Why that time? Its obviously to dredge up some  feeling.



Its some "out of touch with reality" choice by someone who doesnt understand much of anything.

I suppose someone managed to convince others that its showing a form of acceptance for Islam by purposely building a massive Mosque next to a sight that got destroyed from a terror group that practices Islam.

They dont realize that its bad taste for a lot of others and build a perception of giving into the enemy. That isnt to say Islam is the enemy but those that are the enemy abuse the influence of Islam to build a powerful following.


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## vivEnergy (May 16, 2010)

Razgriez said:


> Its some "out of touch with reality" choice by someone who doesnt understand much of anything.
> 
> I suppose someone managed to convince others that its showing a form of acceptance for Islam by purposely building a massive Mosque next to a sight that got destroyed from a terror group that practices Islam.
> 
> They dont realize that its bad taste for a lot of others and build a perception of giving into the enemy. That isnt to say Islam is the enemy but those that are the enemy abuse the influence of Islam to build a powerful following.



What they certainly didn't understand is that Islam is finished in the mind of the American public.


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## Razgriez (May 16, 2010)

vivEnergy said:


> What they certainly didn't understand is that Islam is finished in the mind of the American public.



Uh?

I would say the religion is far from finished and is going to be greatly affecting the western world mending in with us.

I dont really see it as much of a good thing as well. Islam is a very traditional religion with a lot of oppressive teachings with in it. Defend it all you want but a lot of it's teachings go against a lot of current civil liberties and it has been causing negative conflict through intolerance for and against the religion.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

I agree with Viv, I couldn't become, marry, or date a Muslim. I wouldn't be integrating into a society that was predominately Muslim and most people don't feel as tolerant about it as me. You can look on You Tube and see people shouting about Islam being the death of culture and the enemy, you can see the attitudes reflected all over the place and in public. Muslims used to claim they felt invisible to others and ignored, now because of recent events they seem infamous and feared, even when they're totally innocent.


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## Razgriez (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I agree with Viv, I couldn't become, marry, or date a Muslim. I wouldn't be integrating into a society that was predominately Muslim and most people don't feel as tolerant about it as me. You can look on You Tube and see people shouting about Islam being the death of culture and the enemy, you can see the attitudes reflected all over the place and in public. Muslims used to claim they felt invisible to others and ignored, now because of recent events they seem infamous and feared, even when they're totally innocent.



Well they were until some idiots decided to smash planes into a few buildings in the name of the religion. Yeah, that isnt good for PR.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

Razgriez said:


> Well they were until some idiots decided to smash planes into a few buildings in the name of the religion. Yeah, that isnt good for PR.


In America they were a forgotten minority. No one thought badly of them or anything. Now they're easily the most suspected minority.


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## Razgriez (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> In America they were a forgotten minority. No one thought badly of them or anything. Now they're easily the most suspected minority.



The most vocal speak for your group.

Rednecks are seen as stupid and generally racist and love using violence.

Liberals are seen as snobbish and out of touch with reality.

Girls that wear revealing clothing are seen as whores.

Black people are seen as stupid and generally violent.

Cops are seen as oppressive and racist and white.

Stereotypes. They rule society.


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## Shinigami Perv (May 16, 2010)

vivEnergy said:


> What they certainly didn't understand is that Islam is finished in the mind of the American public.



Don't know about that. Mosques are springing up all over here in the greater Seattle area. 30 years ago, my father tells me, he'd never seen a Muslim in Seattle.

We bring in many from around the world for Boeing and Microsoft engineers, not to mention the whites born in Seattle who convert.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Don't know about that. Mosques are springing up all over here in the greater Seattle area. 30 years ago, my father tells me, he'd never seen a Muslim in Seattle.
> 
> *We bring in many from around the world for Boeing and Microsoft engineers.*



You bring them in? THEN THEY AREN'T AMERICANS AND WHAT VIV SAID IS NO LESS TRUE.

That's like someone saying a lake is dried up and you go no its not while bringing buckets of water over from some other place and just sitting them on the ground.


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## Shinigami Perv (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *You bring them in? THEN THEY AREN'T AMERICANS AND WHAT VIV SAID IS NO LESS TRUE.*
> 
> That's like someone saying a lake is dried up and you go no its not while bringing buckets of water over from some other place and just sitting them on the ground.



They get their visas, then apply for citizenship. Many are accepted because Microsoft will keep renewing their visas until they have citizenship. Microsoft doesn't want their brains taken by rivals, so they pay them absurd salaries and make them de facto Americans until they get citizenship. 

Then, when their numbers get great enough, they build "Islamic community centers" and start focusing on converting the whites around here.

Not to mention the number of international students we have at University of Washington who decide to stay.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 16, 2010)

Shinigami Perv said:


> They get their visas, then apply for citizenship. Many are accepted because Microsoft will keep renewing their visas until they have citizenship. Microsoft doesn't want their brains taken by rivals, so they pay them absurd salaries and make them de facto Americans until they get citizenship.
> 
> Then, when their numbers get great enough, they build "Islamic community centers" and start focusing on converting the whites around here.
> 
> Not to mention the number of international students we have at University of Washington who decide to stay.




That's not the point, they're not people here being converted. They're people who are coming here as Muslims. I'm not saying they're illegal I am just saying that they're not Americans who are leaving other religions or atheism to be Muslim. 

And a lot of the Muslims I run into are those Watered down black supremacist Muslims.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I agree with Viv, I couldn't become, marry, or date a Muslim. I wouldn't be integrating into a society that was predominately Muslim and most people don't feel as tolerant about it as me. You can look on You Tube and see people shouting about Islam being the death of culture and the enemy, you can see the attitudes reflected all over the place and in public. Muslims used to claim they felt invisible to others and ignored, now because of recent events they seem infamous and feared, even when they're totally innocent.



I remember when i tried to date an arab girl.....everything was ok except i wasn't muslim....so we never been together....just because of religion.


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## Shinigami Perv (May 16, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That's not the point, they're not people here being converted. They're people who are coming here as Muslims. I'm not saying they're illegal I am just saying that they're not Americans who are leaving other religions or atheism to be Muslim.
> 
> And a lot of the Muslims I run into are those Watered down black supremacist Muslims.



Right, and I'm telling you that when they build these community centers and mosques, they convert people. 

My neighbor is a Muslim from Pakistan, he works at Microsoft, and his Islamic wife is white. She converted even though she was born in Kirkland. Her parents were cool with it, I guess. He tells me that the local community center is to make people more informed about Islam and, if they choose, provide direction on conversion.


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## DisgustingIdiot (May 16, 2010)

The only reason why I would be against this is if it was coming out of taxpayers money which as I understand it it's not.


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## Mintaka (May 16, 2010)

Hey guys good news!

I hear BP is putting up three new oil wells in the gulf of Mexico less than three miles from the rig that spilled into the ocean, you know to "improve relations" with the environmentalists.


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## mystictrunks (May 16, 2010)

vivEnergy said:


> What they certainly didn't understand is that Islam is finished in the mind of the American public.



Isn't it the fastest growing religion in the U.S.A., I think that's the opposite of finished.


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## Chibibaki (May 17, 2010)

mystictrunks said:


> Isn't it the fastest growing religion in the U.S.A., I think that's the opposite of finished.



That is a lie first promoted by CNN with no evidence to back it up. Contrary to the bloated figures provided by CAIR, and even the President of the United States, and in spite of the massive influx of Muslim refugees, a Pew survey carried-out in October, 2009 found the estimate for the total Muslim population of the U.S to be at only 2.454 million. Percentage-wise, Islam represents a minuscule 0.8 percent of the United States religious make-up. About a third of what had previously been claimed and widely accepted by many apologists and media outlets.According to research carried out by the respected Pakistani-born American Muslim Dr. Ilyas Ba-Yunus (1932 - 2007), 75% of New Muslim Converts in the US leave Islam within a few years.


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