# Obito without Kamui vs Kakashi without Kamui



## Taijukage (Sep 3, 2013)

debated this heavily on narutobase and youtube. what are your thoughts?
both are fresh and start off 30m away
fight is in the main dimension at VOTE


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## Octavian (Sep 3, 2013)

already happened in the manga...kakashi clowned him


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## iJutsu (Sep 3, 2013)

Really? You would have to be pretty dumb to even see this as debatable. Obito only knows how to fight with kamui. Kakashi is the exact opposite.


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## Jagger (Sep 3, 2013)

Well, can Obito use his hypotetic Rinnegan abilities or he sticks to what he showed in that fight with Kakashi?


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2013)

I have to look back in the fight, but most likely, he would be beaten by Kakashi.

 After all, he only defeated Konan using Izanagi and hasn't shown any feats to show how strong he is without Kamui. I don't know why people say Post Rinnegan Obito is stronger than Prime Nagato. I can never understand this.

 But, as for Kakashi beating Obito in the Kamui Dimension, it could be debated that Tobi used quite a bit of Chakra for his 6 paths considering Kakashi says it takes a lot of chakra and the Jinchuuriki were hard to control.

 Still lean this towards Kakashi though.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 4, 2013)

If Obito has Rinnegan and uses it he wins.

If Obito doesn't have Rinnegan Kakashi kills him with ease.

If Obito has Rinnegan and is in character Kakashi kills him with ease.

The manga made it clear that is base skills, Obito is, was, and will always be far inferior to Kakashi.


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## kakashibeast (Sep 4, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If Obito has Rinnegan and uses it he wins.
> 
> If Obito doesn't have Rinnegan Kakashi kills him with ease.
> 
> ...



This pretty much ended the thread
Kakashi solos


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## Kai (Sep 4, 2013)

If we pay respect to in character, Tobito will always lose to Kakashi in base regardless of other useful abilities he has but will not resort to.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 4, 2013)

Base Kakashi is the stronger of the two, but that is only without the Rinnegan. And even then, for some unknown reason Kishi decided for him to never use it, so if PIS is counted, Kakashi already beat Rinnegan Obito. Without PIS, Obito wins without much difficulty.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 4, 2013)

Obito's Kamui-activation speed made people(myself included) think that his normal speed is also quite high. He was dancing around BM Naruto, Killer B, Kakashi and Gated Gai. Even though we had several instances of jutsu activation being significantly faster than physical movement(Susano vs Kirin, Susano Arrow used on Danzo and later Kakashi) - Obito still looked impressive. Mainly because of how cheap his Kamui is. Which made Obito look like he wasn't even trying. Turns out that his physical speed and CQC without Kamui are... decent. Simply decent. Kakashi was straight out superior in speed in taijutsu when they properly fought. 

After being warped by Obito Kakashi recovered quicker and was on offensive faster than the warper himself. It was Obito who warped him into his own dimension(which he used for years) and yet he wasn't able to capitalize on that. Obito's feat if ignoring a giant hole in his chest was genjutsu. Kakashi straight out owned Obito using normal CQC. Many like to use PIS-argument - Obito tried to beat Kakashi similarly to how they sparred before. Guess what - Kakashi was in the same "PIS" state. Simple Raiton-flow/Raikiri-kunai would have cut through Obito's guard but it was only used as the finisher. No bunshins were used. Kakashi wasn't using majority of his abilities too. And he still won. 

I don't think Obito has full access to Rinnegan abilities. You need a full set of eyes - similarly to Sharingan imo. So the only confirmed combat-related ability is Human Path. Ability Kakashi has full knowledge on. Ability that requires CQC superiority which Obito lacks. Would it be relevant in this fight? Possibly but highly unlikely. 

Mokuton: Rin-death feats were awesome. No doubt about it. High-scale Mokuton lethal spam. Question is - would it tag Kakashi? CQC application relies(again) on CQC superiority and speed. While the tree-variant was used against no-name fodders. It's AoE is quite impressive but speed and the actual execution? We never saw the tech on-panel. Argument can be made about Zetsu-suit being largely responsible for those techs. Zetsu-suit allowed Obito to channel the power of GM. There is Zetsu's words. Obito's normal showing looked different too. Adult Obito is obviously improved his Mokuton-mastery but considering his Kamui-combo-based fighting style - he might not have trained and used Mokuton all that much.

Obito's only advantage is his massive stamina. Kakashi is faster, superior in CQC, superior ninjutsu user(with Suiton mastery to counter Katons  and water-source), bunshin user and more intelligent. Obito's best Katon isn't usable without Kamui. So is his shuriken/kunai launcher. He can't even get shurikens out to use normally without Kamui. Genjutsu is equal. 

Obito tries CQC - he gets owned again or hits RKB. He tries ranged game - Kakashi uses this or dodges it. Genjutsu is useless. Obito can only win with KC-style strategy based on attrition - which is massively OOC. Don't see him hiding in the forest, using Mokuton-harassment and evading Kakashi with his doton-jutsu. Waiting for hours for Kakashi to tire. That's assuming Kakashi doesn't use his dogs to hunt him down successfully.

Obito is too reliant on his Kamui. He fought using it for decades and developed other abilities to utilize its potential. His unrelated-to-Kamui abilities are simply on a decent level. Not enough to beat Kakashi who only started to rely on Kamui recently. Now, if Obito truly can use Rinnegan on the same level as Nagato(there is no definitive proof for that but it is possible) - Kakashi can't win against that. Featwise though - the result is:


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## egressmadara (Sep 4, 2013)

Without Kishi controlling them, Obito would beat him if he had the competence to use Izanagi or his goddamn Rinnegen techniques.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 4, 2013)

waterdome

 Good god, what happened here? How'd he do that if he's weaker than Kakashi?


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## Axiom (Sep 4, 2013)

By wearing a really sturdy mask...


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## RedChidori (Sep 4, 2013)

Kakashi friggin stomps Obito like the roach he is. Pitiful excuse for a Uchiha.


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## Bonly (Sep 4, 2013)

Obito has the Rinnegan which should tip the scales in his favor for an easy win, the question is would he chose to use it or not. If so then he wins, if not then he loses.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 4, 2013)

Axiom said:


> By wearing a really sturdy mask...



 I don't understand how a Raiton pencil can scratch it yet a headbutt from KCM Naruto can't.


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## Axiom (Sep 4, 2013)

That wasn't a Raiton Pencil, that was a Raiton Kunai.  The same thing Kakashi used to put a massive hole in Obito's chest, as pictured above in this thread.  A KCM Nardo headbutt to the chest wouldn't recreate that amount of damage.  And in addition, this is the same mask that let Obito's face come away unharmed from a KCM Rasengan directly to the mask.

It's some pretty strong stuff, whatever it is.


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## sanninme rikudo (Sep 5, 2013)

kakashi domesticates him tobi is only strong bcuz of kamui


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## Tarot (Sep 6, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Mokuton: Rin-death feats were awesome. No doubt about it. High-scale Mokuton lethal spam. Question is - would it tag Kakashi? CQC application relies(again) on CQC superiority and speed. While the tree-variant was used against no-name fodders. It's AoE is quite impressive but speed and the actual execution? We never saw the tech on-panel. Argument can be made about Zetsu-suit being largely responsible for those techs. Zetsu-suit allowed Obito to channel the power of GM. There is Zetsu's words. Obito's normal showing looked different too. Adult Obito is obviously improved his Mokuton-mastery but considering his Kamui-combo-based fighting style - he might not have trained and used Mokuton all that much.


That;s only because Obtio was physically connected to the mazo at the moment.

Obito summons Gedo Mazo, GG 
If this is just base level w/o rinnegan than Kakashi probably wins mid-high diff


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## Santoryu (Sep 6, 2013)

this.

When Kishi writes the fight, Kakashi wins.


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## Tarot (Sep 6, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> this.
> 
> When Kishi writes the fight, Kakashi wins.


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## Taijukage (Sep 29, 2013)

did no one notice i didnt restrict the mazo? or uchiha kaenjin? or the chains? honestly we did see this fight. only it was around 592. kakashi tried to raikiri mazo and it didnt do jack. obto steps on kkahsi here, literally. 
the fight in the dimension was just a case of obito being exhausted by the war whereas kakashi was 3x stronger than usual due to naruto.


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## Kai (Sep 29, 2013)

Tobi had yet and has yet to show any signs of exhaustion actually. He's been actively using chakra for longer than anyone in the war aside from Naruto.


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## DeK3iDE (Sep 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Tobi had yet and has yet to show any signs of exhaustion actually. He's been actively using chakra for longer than anyone in the war aside from Naruto.


no duh, because half of his body is made up of Hashirama's DNA and on top of that he is currently the Juubi jin


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## The World (Sep 29, 2013)

How exactly did Tobi lose? Didn't he stab Kakashi in the gut?

Wasn't he fucking around not killing Kakashi? As much as he touts he has no feelings for anyone he still cares about Kakashi enough not to outright kill him

Plus it was probably all part of his plan to become the Juubi Jinchuuriki 

Kishi will explain all this in due time


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## Bonly (Sep 29, 2013)

The World said:


> How exactly did Tobi lose?



I think people got to this conclusion after Obito said "You might have won this fight..." to Kakashi.


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## The World (Sep 29, 2013)

That was metaphorically or possibly a mistranslation 

Neither of them are dead

Both of them are keeled over with giant wounds in their stomachs


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## Intus Legere (Sep 29, 2013)

Is the majority here being ironic and I'm the one who missed the joke? Because I seriously doubt people believe Obito, without plot induced stupidity and plot no jutsu, would lose to Kakashi.


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## Bonly (Sep 29, 2013)

The World said:


> That was metaphorically or possibly a mistranslation



Why, because you don't like what was said lol



> Neither of them are dead



Because as you know, one can only win by killing the other 



> Both of them are keeled over with giant wounds in their stomachs



Kakashi didn't have a giant wound in his stomach, he got pierced by a chakra rod which is small in size, Obito is the only one with a giant wound. Besides most people know that a fresh Obito without Plot Induced Stupidity would beat Kakashi quite handily.


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## The World (Sep 29, 2013)

Most people? Did you even look over this thread? 

I guess most people are stupid then

Chakra rods are small in size? Tell that to Nardo 






And Tobi can survive having a giant hole in him because

A. His body is half Zetsu where he rips off his own limbs should they be compromised 

B. He doesn't feel pain.



Bonly said:


> Why, because you don't like what was said lol



No, because he just didn't lose

And in most logical cases of fighting you need to be either killed or incapacitated to lose, neither of which was Obito


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## Bonly (Sep 29, 2013)

The World said:


> Most people? Did you even look over this thread?
> 
> I guess most people are stupid then



Or they were just trolling. 



> Chakra rods are small in size? Tell that to Nardo



They are small. I was not referring to the length of the rod when I said that but the width of the rod and looking at how wide it is, it's pretty small for you to make the claim that Kakashi had a giant hole in his stomach.




> And Tobi can survive having a giant hole in him because
> 
> A. His body is half Zetsu where he rips off his own limbs should they be compromised
> 
> B. He doesn't feel pain.



That's pretty neat. Never said Obito didn't have what it takes to survive it but ok.



> No, because he just didn't lose
> 
> And in most logical cases of fighting you need to be either killed or incapacitated to lose, neither of which was Obito



Obito and Kishi disagrees with you but ok.

If that helps you sleep at night then sure.


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## The World (Sep 29, 2013)

Kishi is illogical

seems legit


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 29, 2013)

Well, without PIS, Obito takes it due to his Rinnegan techniques. We already saw what happened with PIS.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 29, 2013)

The manga already showed what would happen. Kakashi still dominates obito.


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## Kai (Sep 29, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> The manga already showed what would happen. Kakashi still dominates obito.


Sure, within the Kamui dimension.

In the regular realm where Tobi has access to "phasing", he dominated Kakashi in close quarters. Yeah, Kakashi can enter Kamui whenever he wants but he'd be stuck there unable to defeat Tobi until the latter enters the dimension himself.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Sure, within the Kamui dimension.
> 
> In the regular realm where Tobi has access to "phasing", he dominated Kakashi in close quarters. Yeah, Kakashi can enter Kamui whenever he wants but he'd be stuck there unable to defeat Tobi until the latter enters the dimension himself.


 I'm pretty sure kakashi didn't even know that their kamui was connected most of the fight and he wasn't exactly "dominating". He was avoiding their attacks most of the fight and that was when they had no knowledge of what Obito was exactly using. Also it's base obito and kakashi and the manga already showed us that kakashi would win.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Sure, within the Kamui dimension.
> 
> In the regular realm where Tobi has access to "phasing", he dominated Kakashi in close quarters. Yeah, Kakashi can enter Kamui whenever he wants but he'd be stuck there unable to defeat Tobi until the latter enters the dimension himself.



 Doesn't matter as this is a fight of Obito and Kakashi both without Kamui.


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## Ashi (Sep 29, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Well, without PIS, Obito takes it due to his Rinnegan techniques. We already saw what happened with PIS.



So far he only has human path which won't help him here


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## Rocky (Sep 29, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So far he only has human path which won't help him here



The ability to rip a man's soul out with a touch certainly helps. Obito also has the Outer Path and its ?ber statue, which tips the match in his favor.


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## The World (Sep 29, 2013)

Kakashi never dominated anything


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## Jagger (Sep 29, 2013)

Kakashi didn't curbstomp Obito since he got impaled and recieved other kind of injuries as well. That's like saying Naruto curbstomped Neji when he obviously needed a lot of work and trickery to beat him.


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