# Strongest ninja gai can beat 8th gate restricted



## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

location: open field 
knowledge: none 
mindset: assume gai needs to prove himself 

who can gai take on 

Btw I only do this thread because the anime shat on 7th gate gai panel feat. against juudara they had him look straight up silly 

1) nagato
2) minato
3) kisame  
4) pain. Do note deva St trolls FRS

5) pick who you think the strongest is

I really think without sounding Mean that the strongest he can beat is a little above kisame level 

anything beyond that and they should decisively beat him to the ground


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## Raiken (Jul 2, 2015)

1: I'm assuming this is Prime Nagato, 7th Gate Gai gets rekt.
2: This is Base Minato I'm assuming, this could be close, but I think Gai only just takes this.
3: This is obviously a Kisame that isn't weakened and with Samehada. I think it's a close fight but Gai takes.
4: So the 6 Paths of Pain, I don't believe Gai can take them all out and win, especially with Deva Path. Pain wins.

Kisame, Base Minato and anyone else around their level, like MS Itachi, SM Naruto, are probably the strongest people that 7th Gate Gai could possibly defeat.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> 1: I'm assuming this is Prime Nagato, 7th Gate Gai gets rekt.
> 2: This is Base Minato I'm assuming, this could be close, but I think Gai only just takes this.
> 3: This is obviously a Kisame that isn't weakened and with Samehada. I think it's a close fight but Gai takes.
> 4: So the 6 Paths of Pain, I don't believe Gai can take them all out and win, especially with Deva Path. Pain wins.
> ...



how does gai take it against minato. explain that match up


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

> Strongest ninja gai can beat 8th gate restricted



Kisame (Without his sword). However, which his sword, it can go either. 

He gets destroyed the other matches.


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## RBL (Jul 2, 2015)

i think you've made these gai threads Against everyone like  a billion of times   u do really hate him don't you?

7 gated gai is underrated as shit.

7 gated gai is kind of featless to be honest, why? because almost every time Gai opens it, he automatically trolls his enemy, he one-shot kisame with the 7th Gate.

when naruto motivated him with his speech, Gai went full 7th Gate and destroyed the shit out of Edo-Madara.

Then we got this awesome momment

​

7 Gated gai is no joke bro 

OT : i think he can wins all the matches (not so sure about the nagato one tho)


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## ThunderCunt (Jul 2, 2015)

So base minato is minato with Sage mode and Kyuubi chakra?
I doubt without all the powerup he would be able to defeat Gai.


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

How is "base" with power up? Obviously without them.

and lol, no 7th Gate Gai does not even stand a chance. 


@OP


> Btw I only do this thread because the anime shat on 7th gate gai panel feat. against juudara they had him look straight up silly



Yeah, that was underwhelming as fuck.


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## ShadoLord (Jul 2, 2015)

He can only beat Kisame with just his 7th gate mode.


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

Honestly even Kisame was with only half of his power against Gai last time. I really doubt that 7th Gates Gai can defeat Kisame at full power.


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## Mercurial (Jul 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> location: open field
> knowledge: none
> mindset: assume gai needs to prove himself
> 
> ...



Nagato is hella strong and powerful but he gets blitzed and eats Hiru Tora in the face. He is not doing anything if he doesn't use CST to defeat Gai the instant the match starts, before he opens the 7th Gate which will need no more than a second for him. Then Gai blitzes and unleashes Hiru Tora on his face and he dies without being able to do nothing, as powerful as he is. Edo Madara couldn't finish a Susanoo sword swing and couldn't do anything when Gai unleashed Hiru Tora on his face, and that was when Gai was tired and wounded.

Gai is physically faster (by far) than Minato and has far better reactions. His taijutsu skill and reflexes allowed him to fend off War Arc Obito's CQC Kamui phasing without letting him to touch him and making him phase to not being hit, while Minato wasn't able to do the same with Young Obito and was caught by his chain and had to resort to Hiraishin to dodge away; Minato isn't touching Gai to mark him with Hiraishin. Nunchaku also deflect the Hiraishin kunai, and Asa Kujaku and Hiru Tora totally screw on them, teleporting is useless with that giant AoE. But for hell's sake, just compare their feats, LoL. Minato vs Juudara: Minato tries to surprise Juudara with Hiraishin to land Rasengan but Juudara react with ease and counterhits by cutting the attacking arm and then kicking Minato away like shit, with Minato not being able to react and use Hiraishin in both istances. Minato isn't even able to end the attack he was trying, before he is swapped away (1)(2). Gai vs Juudara: Gai clearly pressures Juudara with his speed and taijutsu skills, without letting him to touch him with the Gudodama staff or balls, and manages to corner him and launch his finishing attack, even if then is countered and defeated back (3)(4)(5). 7th Gate Gai definitely defeats Minato.

Kisame gets negged canonically (when he didn't have Samehada but fought with killing intent, in a favorable environment, having absorbed a shit ton of chakra from the Hachibi, against Gai who didn't have killing intent and wasn't even actually trying to fight him but just to retrieve the scroll). Gai blitzes, kicks away Samehada after having disarmed him with ease, then stomps. Kisame's powerful Suiton moves are negged by Asa Kujaku's power and heat and Hiru Tora with killing intent (not from a Gai who wants to take him alive, and managed to do that with ease, actually) kills him.

Gai opens 6th/7th Gate and blitzes and kills all the bodies in seconds, together with Kakashi he was casually counterblitzing and kicking around Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 Paths who are definitely faster than Pain Paths. Deva Paths gets blitzed too. If Gai unleashes Hiru Tora they all die, Edo Madara wasn't able to stop it in time, Deva Path is no faster than Edo Madara and anyway Gai could alway attack in the Shinra Tensei cooldown.

Just going with portrayal of general power level, Gai is said to be able to fight as more than an equal against everyone in the Akatsuki, Itachi, Nagato and Obito included, and that's not referring to 8th Gate, since otherwise it wouldn't have said "fight as more than an equal" but "totally unholy rape them". From 3rd Databook.


*Spoiler*: __ 



​


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## Deer Lord (Jul 2, 2015)

7th gate gai can take out Muu/Oonoki/Sage naruto/Living Itachi
He seems of similar power to KN6 naruto, on the lower end of High-Kage.

So out of the people you mentioned, only kisame.


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## ThunderCunt (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How is "base" with power up? Obviously without them.
> 
> and lol, no 7th Gate Gai does not even stand a chance.
> 
> ...


err, I mean without.


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> 7th gate gai can take out Muu/Oonoki/*Sage narut*o/Living Itachi
> He seems of similar power to KN6 naruto, on the lower end of High-Kage.
> 
> So out of the people you mentioned, only kisame.



Lol, no. 

Gai and his team were portrayed in the manga in a light where they will only be drawback in SM Narudo's face so to speak against Pain. lol


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## RBL (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Lol, no.
> 
> Gai and his team were portrayed in the manga in a light where they will only be drawback in SM Narudo's face so to speak against Pain. lol



the stupid slug meant that naruto had a plan, not that they were so weak.


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## Mercurial (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Lol, no.
> 
> Gai and his team were portrayed in the manga in a light where they will only be drawback in SM Narudo's face so to speak against Pain. lol



Fresh Gai + fresh Rock Lee + fresh Neji (+ fresh Tenten whatever) being a drawback for SM Naruto against tired Deva Path. The same Gai , etc etc etc


*Spoiler*: __ 






















lol

lol

lol

lol

lol


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## Mercurial (Jul 2, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 


























lol

lol

lol

lol

lol


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

Why the hell are you posting all those pages and entire chapters? 
your second point is rather pointless as it is about 8th Gate Gai, and we are talking about 7th Gate Gai. 



> the stupid slug meant that naruto had a plan, not that they were so weak.


They will get in his way because they are not in his level. Honestly, besides Gai, the others ARE weak. 

Regardless, SM Naruto is stronger than Gai until 7th Gate. That's obvious I believe. 

Gai's rival in term of power (till 7th Gate) is Kisame. Hell, Kishi keeps holding Kisame back to say the least.

1- Gai's team & Gai (6th Gate) to defeat 30%
2- Gai needed 7 Gates to defeat Kisame with 50% of his power (it was stated that the sword is half of the swordsmen's power, and Kisame was without his sword).

I think it obvious where Gai stands.

He only exceeds that limit with the 8th Gate.


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## Turrin (Jul 2, 2015)

Gai would beat all of them to be honest, as none of them can really deal with his speed. Keeping up with Juubidara is no joke.


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## RBL (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Why the hell are you posting all those pages and entire chapters?
> your second point is rather pointless as it is about 8th Gate Gai, and we are talking about 7th Gate Gai.
> 
> 
> ...



u don't read the manga do you?

gai didn't need the seven gate to defeat kisame, kisame was trying to scape, and gai wanted the information-scroll kisame had, so he had to use an AOE Attack in order to get rid of all the sharks (Gai didn't know which shark had the scroll) basically, once Gai entered the 7th gate, less than 1 minute passed before kisame was already defeated.


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## ARGUS (Jul 2, 2015)

Lol SM naruto gets stomped against 7th gate  guy hussain, 

as for the matchups, 
Guy wrecks Kisame, loses to nagato and can possibly beat minato under favorable conditions though he still loses to him more times than not


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Nagato is hella strong and powerful but he gets blitzed and eats Hiru Tora in the face. He is not doing anything if he doesn't use CST to defeat Gai the instant the match starts, before he opens the 7th Gate which will need no more than a second for him. Then Gai blitzes and unleashes Hiru Tora on his face and he dies without being able to do nothing, as powerful as he is. Edo Madara couldn't finish a Susanoo sword swing and couldn't do anything when Gai unleashed Hiru Tora on his face, and that was when Gai was tired and wounded.
> 
> Gai is physically faster (by far) than Minato and has far better reactions. His taijutsu skill and reflexes allowed him to fend off War Arc Obito's CQC Kamui phasing without letting him to touch him and making him phase to not being hit, while Minato wasn't able to do the same with Young Obito and was caught by his chain and had to resort to Hiraishin to dodge away; Minato isn't touching Gai to mark him with Hiraishin. Nunchaku also deflect the Hiraishin kunai, and Asa Kujaku and Hiru Tora totally screw on them, teleporting is useless with that giant AoE. But for hell's sake, just compare their feats, LoL. Minato vs Juudara: Minato tries to surprise Juudara with Hiraishin to land Rasengan but Juudara react with ease and counterhits by cutting the attacking arm and then kicking Minato away like shit, with Minato not being able to react and use Hiraishin in both istances. Minato isn't even able to end the attack he was trying, before he is swapped away (1)(2). Gai vs Juudara: Gai clearly pressures Juudara with his speed and taijutsu skills, without letting him to touch him with the Gudodama staff or balls, and manages to corner him and launch his finishing attack, even if then is countered and defeated back (3)(4)(5). 7th Gate Gai definitely defeats Minato.
> 
> ...




am sorry how does gai amped to 7th gate and blitz nagato before he uses ST to murder him?
even if gai starts in 7th gate how does gai close the distance before nagato uses an instant jutsu to murder him 
do answer that before i actually read your post


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> u don't read the manga do you?
> 
> gai didn't need the seven gate to defeat kisame, kisame was trying to scape, and gai wanted the information-scroll kisame had, so he had to use an AOE Attack in order to get rid of all the sharks (Gai didn't know which shark had the scroll) basically, once Gai entered the 7th gate, less than 1 minute passed before kisame was already defeated.



Gai used the 6th Gate for the shark. 7th to defeat Kisame. 

- less than 1 second or not, he used it. Also. Kisame was with half of his power.



ARGUS said:


> Lol SM naruto gets stomped against 7th gate  guy hussain,



- BS. 
7th Gate Gai is not stomping jackshit. ESPECIALLY, when he can only fire off 1 attack. 

If anything, Narudo can summons 2 frogs, and set down to enjoy the show. lol


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

also i find it hilarious that people think 7th gate can beat minato 
good luck attempting to blitz the guy who only needs to let go of a kunai to be behind you. 

gai better off using hirudora from a distance which again gets trolled with no difficulty by minato


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## Mercurial (Jul 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> am sorry how does gai amped to 7th gate and blitz nagato before he uses ST to murder him?
> even if gai starts in 7th gate how does gai close the distance before nagato uses an instant jutsu to murder him
> do answer that before i actually read your post



Because his 7th Gate blitz is a lot faster than Nagato focusing and unleashing Shinra Tensei?



His speed surprised even Juudara. He could certainly handle that, he showed he could with relative ease, but he still didn't have the time to do anything before Gai reached him. After that, Nagato is no Juudara.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Because his 7th Gate blitz is a lot faster than Nagato focusing and unleashing Shinra Tensei?
> 
> 
> 
> His speed surprised even Juudara. He could certainly handle that, he showed he could with relative ease, but he still didn't have the time to do anything before Gai reached him. After that, Nagato is no Juudara.



oh so now nagato has to focus and release shinra tensei. pretty sure u have gone about saying several times its instant

when gai is powerign up. may i ask you what nagato is doing? 

juudara tried to engage in taijutsu. nagato would be using ST. 

so do answer whats nagato doing when gai is charging up?

and if gai is charged up then there is no dust blockign his LOS which is what allowed gai to surprise juudara who was still saying he isnt being taken seriously 

its entirely silly to think gai amps and then blitzes nagato before he can simply react and use an invisible repulsive field to slap gai away


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

> His speed surprised even Juudara. He could certainly handle that, he showed he could with relative ease, but he still didn't have the time to do anything before Gai reached him. After that, Nagato is no Juudara.



Just like how Genin Sasuke's speed surprising Kakashi helped him so much against Zabuza. 
5
5
5


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

and tobirama speed surprised juubito. it doesnt help tobirama beat people much weaker than juubito now does it 

surprising a stronger enemy is fantastic but frankly it would be like me claiming Sm naruto thanks to hirashin straight up blitz undeniably juubito therefore anyone weaker than juubito stands no chance if marked by hirashin against Sm naruto


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## LostSelf (Jul 2, 2015)

Gai beats Kisame handily. What can he do to avoid Hirudora on his face? Gated Gai on the war-arc improved greatly, and went from shooting AT in unison with Kisame, to greatly outspeed Madara being beaten up. He rushes to Kisame, dodges anything he throws at him and blasts Hirudora in his face.

Beats SM Naruto as well unless Naruto plays safe and tries to outlast, but considering the stamina increase he suffered, i highly doubt it. Naruto would need to stop making clones to gather energy, or to stop have clones gathering energy to use mass clones, wich can be dealt with Asa Kujaku.

Gamabunta and co. are not touching Gai, Deva Path danced through them. And a CqC skirmish with someone that has super-sonic striking speed is not the best choice either. I favor Gai more times than not.

Loses against Nagato and Minato.


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

> Gai beats Kisame handily. What can he do to avoid Hirudora on his face?



If he has his sword, he will simply recover. B's Lariato (whatever it called) did FAR much damage to Kisame's body, and he recovered in no time.



> Beats SM Naruto as well unless Naruto plays safe and tries to outlast, but considering the stamina increase he suffered, i highly doubt it. Naruto would need to stop making clones to gather energy, or to stop have clones gathering energy to use mass clones, wich can be dealt with Asa Kujaku.



Manga > you.
SM Naruto > Gai.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

not another Sm naruto vs gai thread
frankly gai should break him. Naruto doesnt have the speed to keep the distance nor the skill to engage in taijutsu 

gai hiru dora him and wins quite simply 

no way around that. he kills kisame as well. with no chakra absorbed samehada cant heal kisame.


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## RBL (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Gai *used the 6th Gate for the shark.* 7th to defeat Kisame.
> 
> - less than 1 second or not, he used it. Also. Kisame was with half of his power.
> 
> ...



not true, he used the seven gated because he realized asa kujaku was not enough (because there were a lot of sharks) not because he actually wanted to defeat kisame, not to say that kisame had just absorbed B's chaklra (he was stronger than a normal base-kisame)


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## LostSelf (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> If he has his sword, he will simply recover. B's Lariato (whatever it called) did FAR much damage to Kisame's body, and he recovered in no time.



Bee's lariat didn't do more damage at all. Kisame was defeated on the floor unable to move.  With the lariat, he, at the very least could move his hand. And that's assuming Samehada doesn't go flying off his hand or Gai doesn't follow up attacking him.

Also, Samehada has never healed without stealing chakra first. He has nothing to steal here.



> Manga > you.
> SM Naruto > Gai.




Believing such statements from beings that knows nothing is like believing Itachi is invincible, as Zetsu stated, or Sakura being in BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke's level.

Gai's feats proved Katsuyu how wrong (or dumb) she was (is).


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

> Bee's lariat didn't do more damage at all. Kisame was defeated on the floor unable to move. With the lariat, he, at the very least could move his hand. And that's assuming Samehada doesn't go flying off his hand or Gai doesn't follow up attacking him.
> 
> Also, Samehada has never healed without stealing chakra first. He has nothing to steal here.



Opening his chest is not more damage? 



> Believing such statements from beings that knows nothing is like believing Itachi is invincible, as Zetsu stated, or Sakura being in BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke's level.
> 
> Gai's feats proved Katsuyu how wrong (or dumb) she was (is).



Even Shikaku stated that if Naruto learned SM he is on a level of his own. 
Please don't try to say Shukaku is stupid as well because I don't know if I can take seriously if you said so.


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## LostSelf (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Opening his chest is not more damage?



It left Kisame in a worse condition. Because it opened his chest doesn't mean much. A knife can do that to a person, but that doesn't mean it deals more damage than being hit by a car.



> Even Shikaku stated that if Naruto learned SM he is on a level of his own.
> Please don't try to say Shukaku is stupid as well because I don't know if I can take seriously if you said so.



Level on his own, what does that mean, exactly? Because Pain stomped him. Obito would've stomped him too. That doesn't mean there can't be shinobis stronger than him, Shikaku is not stupid, but those kind of hypes are true as long as they are not proven wrong. And that was.


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

- the only reason Kisame survived that is because his sword was with him, and healed him. He did NOT have his sword against Gai. It's manga canon that the sword equal half of a swordsmen's power.  

- Shikaku is OBVIOUSLY talking about Konoha's ninja. 
Obito is not part of the village at the time, and they though he is dead. Also, Pain got his ass handled to him eventually. Which is also supported by Katsuyu telling
them to not get involves. It's clearly meant to show than SM Naruto is the superior ninja in the village. 



> Shikaku is not stupid, but those kind of hypes are true as long as they are not proven wrong. And that was.



Except it is not. Seriously you people overrate the living fuck out of what 7th Gate Gai, when Madara dodged his attack and countered his fastest punch. 

a direct hit is not going to kill Naruto in SM, and Gai is screwed after ONE attack.


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## LostSelf (Jul 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - the only reason Kisame survived that is because his sword was with him, and healed him. He did NOT have his sword against Gai. It's manga canon that the sword equal half of a swordsmen's power.



Sword that had Hachibi's chakra. Wich it won't have here. Kisamehada will go flying off Kisame's hands or die. But one thing is for sure, and is that it won't heal him.



> - Shikaku is OBVIOUSLY talking about Konoha's ninja.
> Obito is not part of the village at the time, and they though he is dead. Also, Pain got his ass handled to him eventually. Which is also supported by Katsuyu telling
> them to not get involves. It's clearly meant to show than SM Naruto is the superior ninja in the village.
> 
> ...



Yes, it was proven wrong. 7th Gate's Gai's Hirudora was powerful enough to knock out Madara in V3 Susano'o (or V4), enough to stop the Mokuton restraining Bee. Lower versions of Susano'o that could take a lightened Ei and Tsunade's punch.

Beaten up Gai and restrained by Mokuton could open the 7th gate, form the handseal, punch and effectively blast Madara away before he could even finish the mid-swing he was doing at Naruto, in a distance that made Hachibi look incredibly small, so it was far. The same Madara whose Ei needed to amp his speed with Onoki to crush his guard, because even with a surprise attack and his fist being less than an inch from his face, he failed.

Same base Gai who was effectively deflecting adult Obito's Kamui attempts, when the man was two-panneling KCM Naruto with pure Taijutsu skills and attacking twice before Obito could even finish a first attack.

Please, tell me how Pain Arc SM Naruto was above all this, and how he counters that. With Knowledge (wich he should have), Naruto is not attacking in a CqC engagement against Gai. And it's not very likely that Gai is going down with one punch, considering he could bent time and space with his body turning into ashes, all that, after than ONE attack you say will screw him.


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## Bonly (Jul 2, 2015)

I can only see Gai beating Kisame more times then not, he'd lose to the rest on that list.



Brandon Lee said:


> *the stupid slug* meant that naruto had a plan, not that they were so weak.



You shut your mouth you disrespectful top nose wanker, the Queen meant just that, Gai would only get in his. Also Rocklee suck and he's not youthful


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## RBL (Jul 2, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I can only see Gai beating Kisame more times then not, he'd lose to the rest on that list.
> 
> 
> 
> You shut your mouth you disrespectful top nose wanker, the Queen meant just that, Gai would only get in his. Also Rocklee suck and he's not youthful



fak you broly


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Gai solos all of them with 7th Gate, he's easily one of the most underrated characters there are.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

I wonder how he is soloing nagato when nagato can just ST the shit out of him 

lets not mention minato who could drop a kunai and get behind gai. unless people think gai can power up and blitz minato before minato can drop 1 single kunai in which case


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Gai kept up with Juubidara with 7 Gates alone, whereas Juubidara chopped Minato w/SM + Hiraishin's arm off.

Gai easily out-speeds Nagato's cool down timer.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Gai kept up with Juubidara with 7 Gates alone, whereas Juubidara chopped Minato w/SM + Hiraishin's arm off.
> 
> Gai easily out-speeds Nagato's cool down timer.





that suggests he survives the first ST

any reason to believe he would?

gai fastest punch got smacked with the same ease as minato attack. hiru tora is guy fastest punch. its basically stated on panel. 

juudara swung down and trolled it 

getting smacked by juudara Is getting smacked by juudara

I still don't see how that shows gai is so fast minato cant drop a kunai and get behind gai if he attempts cqc

now tell me does gai have eyes behind his head or is he a sensor?

juudara went taijutsu against the best taijutsu user then slapped him when he got done with playing around

minato attack was far more predictable because madara knows everything there is to know about hirashin 

I didn't know gai had the same knowledge juudara does, or that he is a sensor

btw using ur logic I could just straight up say SM Naruto >>> hashirama since he was able to smack juubito to the floor. do u remember how he did that?


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

^ Kakashi survives ST, you think Gai won't?


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> ^ Kakashi survives ST, you think Gai won't?



so u mean to compare deva path to nagato

 

really that's ur argument. that's the best you got. nice one buddy

I guess gai is also a lot more duable than bunta and the others. that was again from deva who is nothing but a drop of nagato power

 CST is something nagato can easily and exponentially  replicate


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Gai's body has to be durable in order to survive the amount of stress he puts on it by using the Gates.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Gai's body has to be durable in order to survive the amount of stress he puts on it by using the Gates.



do show me where gates is implied to improve durability 

I asked because gai coughed up blood when 30% of kisame punched him 

durable my ass

CST pastes him to the ground, he becomes part of the landscape


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> do show me where gates is implied to improve durability
> 
> I asked because gai coughed up blood when 30% of kisame punched him
> 
> ...


Yeah but that's assuming Nagato wants to use such an overgrown CST, he'll likely use what he used against Kakashi and then Gai will just cut him down before he can recharge.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah but that's assuming Nagato wants to use such an overgrown CST, he'll likely use what he used against Kakashi and then Gai will just cut him down before he can recharge.



that's a convenient of assumption of someone who knows he doesn't have a point 

why would he see gai amp 2 7th gate with all the dust he kicks up and not want to use a powerful ST

can you answer me that

good game buddy


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 2, 2015)

This Gai Wank in this thread


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## Sferr (Jul 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> that's a convenient of assumption of someone who knows he doesn't have a point
> 
> why would he see gai amp 2 7th gate with all the dust he kicks up and not want to use a powerful ST
> 
> ...



When Gai went 7th Gates, gathering a lot of dust around him, using the cover of the dust he almost blitzed Juudara. Nagato in Juudara's place would simply get lolblitzed. To safely kill Gai, Nagato will have to use CST before Gai goes 7 Gates and without having full knowledge that would be very OOC for him.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> that's a convenient of assumption of someone who knows he doesn't have a point
> 
> why would he see gai amp 2 7th gate with all the dust he kicks up and not want to use a powerful ST
> 
> ...


The thread says 7th Gated Gai and Nagato has 0 knowledge on Gai, as the member above me stated, exceptionally OOC for him to use a large CST.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The thread says 7th Gated Gai and Nagato has 0 knowledge on Gai, as the member above me stated, exceptionally OOC for him to use a large CST.



which means he sees a guy in blue aura moving at super speed but decides to go easy on him with ST

gai must cover the distance nagato only need think 

unless gai can think and cover the distance and attack before nagato can form a thought. nagato murders him with no difficulty


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## Sferr (Jul 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> which means he sees a guy in blue aura moving at super speed but decides to go easy on him with ST
> 
> gai must cover the distance nagato only need think
> 
> unless gai can think and cover the distance and attack before nagato can form a thought. nagato murders him with no difficulty



Juudara reacted to the initial blitz of 7th Gate Gai only when Gai was already a step away from him. For Nagato to not be lolblitzed he will need to have Juudara-level reaction. Which he doesn't have. So, basically yeah: Gai crosses the distances and murders Nagato before Nagato forms a thought.


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## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Juudara reacted to the initial blitz of 7th Gate Gai only when Gai was already a step away from him. For Nagato to not be lolblitzed he will need to have Juudara-level reaction. Which he doesn't have. So, basically yeah: Gai crosses the distances and murders Nagato before Nagato forms a thought.



juuudara LOS was blocked and he was talkign feelign underestimated 

i still dont see what that has to do with nagato though who doesnt need to move even slightly to send gai miles away 

 

so i take it kisame had juudara level reactions since you know he fired off an attack at the same time gai fired off his fastest punch great logic there buddy 

also did juudara reactions multiply by a 100? cuz if u claiming u need juudara level reactions to react to 7th gate gai then how on earth was juudara reacting to 8th gate gai that is several dozens of times faster than 7th gate gai?

also lets not forget minato still got to a location quicker than 8th gate gai. yet u wouldnt claim minato can shit blitz nagato 

u would note minato did get right infront of juudara before juudara slapped him away which is what he did to gai in the end 

so either u dont read the manga in which case u should or u read it, got confused and believe minato and gai>>>>>>>nagato


----------



## Mercurial (Jul 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> juuudara LOS was blocked and he was talkign feelign underestimated
> 
> i still dont see what that has to do with nagato though who doesnt need to move even slightly to send gai miles away
> 
> ...



Nagato's LoS will be covered in the same exact way; not to mention that Juudara's speed and reflexes are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nagato's.

Actually not, because Kisame fired Daikodan before Gai fired Hiru Tora, not the opposite nor in the same moment. And remember that Gai was underwater anyway, he punched underwater, so obviously his speed would not have been at his fullest in first place, because you know, the water pressure makes his body slower logically.

The difference between Minato and Gai is that Minato appeared in front of Juudara and got counterblitzed before he could even end his attack, while Gai got reacted, but not counterblitzed, because his speed was such that even if Juudara could react and parry/dodge his blows he didn't have the time to counter them (like he easily had with Minato) and that he managed to launch his final attack, just it wasn't powerful enough and Juudara still stomped him back. 7th Gate Gai still proved that his combat speed is >>> SM Minato's.

Minato just Hiraishined thanks to Lee throwing a kunai in front of Gai that was moving in mid air and not at his full speed (otherwise Lee would never have been to follow him let alone to throw a kunai so fast that it outspeeded dashing Gai appearing right in front of him). KCM Minato was blitzed by Juubito and SM Minato was blitzed by Juudara, 7th Gate Gai was defeated by Juudara but pressured him and wasn't immediately counterblitzed like Minato, and 8th Gate Gai blitzed and ragdolled Juudara.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

IceGaze is literally the only one who believes Nagato can defeat 7th Gate Gai. How ironic.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2015)

> Raikiri19 said:
> 
> 
> > Nagato's LoS will be covered in the same exact way; not to mention that Juudara's speed and reflexes are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nagato's.
> ...


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> IceGaze is literally the only one who believes Nagato can defeat 7th Gate Gai. How ironic.




You looking for my attention  buddy ?
Read rhe thread not the only one . You and raikiri however are the only ones 
Nice try though 

Quick question can 7th gate Gai bkitz and kill obito before he phases 
Another one can Gai blitz and kill sasuke before he uses susanoo ?
How about itachi

When u answer those let me know


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2015)

ps: the logic that getting in juudara face means gai can blitz everyone weaker is pure and utter BS 

that would make 7th gate gai the strongest non So6p related character

SO that means gai can blitz Madara, EMS sasuke, hashirama, BSM Naruto, juubito( who was obviously weaker than juudara)

can blitz obito before obito phases, despite juudara being unable to. So yh like I said getting in juudara face is just that, a good feat however only an idiot would believe that means gai can blitz everyone else 

especially does with automatic defences

ps: everyone with an automatic defence pretty much ensures gai doesn't engage in a cqc exchange which is what was impressive. not getting in juudara face, minato did that and got slapped away. 

obito-phases through
nagato-ST
susanoo and chakra avatar users- well that's obvious 
hirashin users obvious as well 

Anyone else however would get blitz and smacked


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> You looking for my attention  buddy ?
> Read rhe thread not the only one . You and raikiri however are the only ones
> Nice try though





 Brandon Lee, Ryuzaki, Turrin, and Sferr seem to think otherwise. 



> Quick question can 7th gate Gai bkitz and kill obito before he phases
> Another one can Gai blitz and kill sasuke before he uses susanoo ?
> How about itachi



 Yes he could. Obito will be unable to perceive his position before 7th Gate Gai punches his head off.

 Yes, Gai can outright blitz both EMS Sasuke and Itachi.



> When u answer those let me know



 Already answered.


----------



## Sferr (Jul 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> But Gai starts in 7th gate already though
> So no power up here and therefore no LoS blocked


You yourself brought the point of Nagato using CST because he would see Gai amp to 7th Gate.





Icegaze said:


> the goudama were moving at full speed though. why assume gai would slow down for the lolz?



Because if he didn't, than Lee oneshots Minato, Nagato, Itachi, Naruto, Sasuke, Hashirama etc with a kunai to the face.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 4, 2015)

^
Kunai aren't capable of one shoting people in the Narutoverse.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

ChaddyMan1 said:


> ^
> Kunai aren't capable of one shoting people in the Narutoverse.



 It one-shotted Yahiko.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It one-shotted Yahiko.



Yahiko was the Yamcha of the Narutoverse, a gust of wind could have KO'd him.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

ChaddyMan1 said:


> Yahiko was the Yamcha of the Narutoverse, a gust of wind could have KO'd him.



 Yahiko was the leader of a renowned group and eventually led to Hanzo and Danzo fearing Yahiko's leadership and power which would allow him to overtake Amegakure, the former being the one who was capable of defeating 3 Young Sannin along with an entire Konoha Platoon.

 Yahiko was hardly a Yamcha.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 4, 2015)

^
So fodder is capable of intimidating lesser fodder, big deal


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 4, 2015)

He beats all of them except for possibly Nagato and Minato if he can outlast Gai through strategic use of FTG.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

ChaddyMan1 said:


> ^
> So fodder is capable of intimidating lesser fodder, big deal



 Yamcha never intimidated anyone.

 Yahiko did, enough to the point to be more threatening than a guy with the Rinnegan.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Brandon Lee, Ryuzaki, Turrin, and Sferr seem to think otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks then that's ur logic 
just wanted to know if u would be consistent 

so then gai>>>EMS sasuke

cool buddy


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2015)

Sferr said:


> You yourself brought the point of Nagato using CST because he would see Gai amp to 7th Gate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



then lee 1 shots
 thank god he doesn't use kunai 

u got no proof gai slowed down..again what reason would be have to slow down 

that's also silly logic cuz that would count as an interception feat 

which makes suigetsu faster than V1 A, haku much faster than war arc kakashi and the list goes on 

throwing a kunai at a location closer to where gai was doesn't make lee throwing speed horribly fast

what was fast there was minato reactions and his ability to use hirashin twice 

@narutoX28 so that's 3 people...ok cool


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> He beats all of them except for possibly Nagato and Minato if he can outlast Gai through strategic use of FTG.



I want to ask u 
can gai blitz obito before obito phases 

want to know what u would say


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yamcha never intimidated anyone.
> 
> Yahiko did, enough to the point to be more threatening than a guy with the Rinnegan.



As I said, lesser fodder


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

ChaddyMan1 said:


> As I said, lesser fodder



 There's no proof of that.

 Hanzo solely relied on subduing Konan in order to kill Yahiko, so clearly Yahiko was a considerably strong opponent.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 4, 2015)

^
Did Yahiko die? If so he's fodder


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I want to ask u
> can gai blitz obito before obito phases
> 
> want to know what u would say


That would be a negative.

Between Gai initially powering up and making his initial movement there's zero chance Obito isn't able to phase in time.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

ChaddyMan1 said:


> ^
> Did Yahiko die? If so he's fodder



 Sure, but Madara died as well.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, but Madara died as well.



Indeed he did cause he's fodder too


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## RBL (Jul 4, 2015)

IceGaze is a very well known Gai-hater he is probably the dupe guy called 'assnine' that would only create alt-acc to shit on team Gai and kakashi 

he doesn't like Gai because he is better overall than Ei.

7Gated Gai is underrated as shit, Gai has never been hit while in the 7th Gate, Gai just one-shot an enemy like kisame (who is one of the strongest of akatsuki) 7th Gated Gai also shitted on Edo-Madara, something not even BSM Naruto could do (not saying he is stronger than BSM Naruto, but still) 7Gated Gai is very impressive but people tend to say he is not that strong just because he can access to another Gate.

AND, because he is considered to be Kakashi's rival, and kakashi has always been used as a bench mark for naruto, kakashi is always nerfing himself and sometimes he is used as a punching-bag against god-alike enemies or plot-protected enemies, like PAIN, however that doesn't mean Gai would suffer from the same thing.


----------



## Amol (Jul 4, 2015)

He beats Kisame all the time.
Nagato ST him. He was matching KCM Naruto and B on same time. Sorry Nagato is just that strong. 
Minato has methods to simply outlast Gai . Really depends upon the conditions .


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> IceGaze is a very well known Gai-hater he is probably the dupe guy called 'assnine' that would only create alt-acc to shit on team Gai and kakashi
> 
> he doesn't like Gai because he is better overall than Ei.
> 
> ...




 much ?


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> That would be a negative.
> 
> Between Gai initially powering up and making his initial movement there's zero chance Obito isn't able to phase in time.



I agree
Now I ask u the same question about Nagato 
Does he get  blitz when he got a Jutsu as quick to activate as obito ?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I agree
> Now I ask u the same question about Nagato
> Does he get  blitz when he got a Jutsu as quick to activate as obito ?



 He could while he charges up his 7th Gates, but he simply can't in response to Gai's own speed. But again, you're making an assumption that Nagato would use ST based on Gai's 7th Gates when Nagato has canonically never started a fight with ST to begin with. 

 Even in his old, fatigued state after his revival, he never opted for Shinra Tensei even after admitting that KCM Naruto surpassed SM Naruto. Granted, he did resort to Bansho Tenin prior to this which likely leads me to believe he'd do the same against a Taijutsu user in which it simply backfires on Nagato.


----------



## RBL (Jul 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> much ?



 sorry bro i  had to do it, i didn't actually mean this (i think you kind of hate gai tho)


----------



## Deadway (Jul 5, 2015)

This is pointless. The manga is full of inconsistency.

Sage Minato bamflashed next to Madara and got rekt in less than one second based on Kamui speed feats. 1 Second. 

7th Gated Gai blitzed Madara and had him back peddling for several seconds. Gaara, who's seen Raikage and Minato's speed commented on Gai's movements, claiming they were not human.

Even in part 1, although genin, both Naruto and Sasuke questioned if Gai was even human when he sunshined behind them.

Madara, who was blitzed by 7th Gated Gai was blitzed by Sasuke, twice. 

Sasuke failed to blitz Kaguya point blank.

Kaguya at maximum speed was blitzed by Kakashi.

Do you see the issue here?

Inconsistency.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He could while he charges up his 7th Gates, but he simply can't in response to Gai's own speed. But again, you're making an assumption that Nagato would use ST based on Gai's 7th Gates when Nagato has canonically never started a fight with ST to begin with.
> 
> Even in his old, fatigued state after his revival, he never opted for Shinra Tensei even after admitting that KCM Naruto surpassed SM Naruto. Granted, he did resort to Bansho Tenin prior to this which likely leads me to believe he'd do the same against a Taijutsu user in which it simply backfires on Nagato.



sorry how many fights have nagato been in by his own volition or control?

if u mean as an ET he was being controlled

against hanzo that was the first thing he did after yahiko died. so again I don't get u 

why would anyone see a blue flammy guy with white eyes and red skin and think yes I will go easy on this dude. not like nagato would have any other choice but to use ST. if he tries anything else he dies though 

funny assumption at the end though, blue flammy guy but yes let me drag him closer to me. despite me being able to barely react to his speed

also why assume it backfires, SM Naruto and KCM Naruto could only just about defend themselves against BT. why assume gai would be able to do more than that?


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> sorry bro i  had to do it, i didn't actually mean this (i think you kind of hate gai tho)



I don't I just hate the, he got in juudara face therefore he can blitz everyone else 

that's a silly argument. and you know it

what was impressive and noted by gaara was his cqc ability not his speed at getting to juudara as that had just been done before by minato who got slapped away like a punk 

now what I would say is anyone In juudara situation caught in cqc against 7th gate gai looses casually 

but who on earth would engage or let themselves be engaged by 7th gate gai. when a good portion of people in the manga got automatic defences 

even gaara can just get in his sand egg. not that It would help but my point really is getting in juudara face is just that 


note no one goes on and on about how tobirama thanks to hirashin blitz juubito. using that logic then you must agree considering juubito>>>>>>>>>all no S06p characters+ 8th gate gai 

that tobirama can shit blitz everyone. 

which we both know is untrue and laughable


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

Deadway said:


> This is pointless. The manga is full of inconsistency.
> 
> Sage Minato bamflashed next to Madara and got rekt in less than one second based on Kamui speed feats. 1 Second.
> 
> ...



not inconsistency so much as misunderstanding of the panels

getting in juudara face wasn't impressive. it was gai skill in cqc. 

fact is in cqc he is >>>>>>>>everyone else so there was no helping that

also note juudara knew all there is to know about hirashin and is a sensor. so knowing minato will pop in front of him is a given. 

juudara I don't think had as much info on 8 gates, while he knew about them he hasn't fought or had years of vendetta against a gated user. while a hirashin user, well we know how he felt about tobirama, he even knew tobirama ET

so more info helped juudara here, that and minato is simply less skilled in cqc than gai. 

I just don't get why its the getting in juudara face that Is impressive and talked about and not his cqc ability 


what I should be hearing more is if gai gets in cqc he wins. not he shit blitz and no one can react.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry how many fights have nagato been in by his own volition or control?
> 
> if u mean as an ET he was being controlled



 And the one who was controlling him is a skilled and perceptive fighter with knowledge on Naruto's techniques yet he still didn't opt for Shinra Tensei. It means Shinra Tensei isn't something that Nagato would use right away as it's not always ideal.



> against hanzo that was the first thing he did after yahiko died. so again I don't get u



 Nagato was inexperienced and mainly used as a line of defense against multiple projectiles. Gai doesn't fit that criteria. 



> why would anyone see a blue flammy guy with white eyes and red skin and think yes I will go easy on this dude. not like nagato would have any other choice but to use ST. if he tries anything else he dies though



 Gai has complete knowledge on Pain's techniques and despite that, he casually attempted to fend off V2 Jin with Precognition in his 6th Gates state despite anticipating one of the techniques they would've used being Shinra Tensei. You thinking Shinra Tensei instantly OHKO's 7th Gate Gai is laughable.



> funny assumption at the end though, blue flammy guy but yes let me drag him closer to me. despite me being able to barely react to his speed



 How would Nagato know that he'd be unable to react to his speed?



> also why assume it backfires, SM Naruto and KCM Naruto could only just about defend themselves against BT. why assume gai would be able to do more than that?



 Because he'd simply use Bansho Tenin to increase his acceleration further and slam Nagato into the ground.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> And the one who was controlling him is a skilled and perceptive fighter with knowledge on Naruto's techniques yet he still didn't opt for Shinra Tensei. It means Shinra Tensei isn't something that Nagato would use right away as it's not always ideal.



yet didn't know nagato was a sensor. 



> - Inexperienced Nagato
> - Mainly used for a defense against multiple enemies
> - The magnitude of that Push was overall pathetic.



true we aren't talking about that nagato though are we 



> Gai has complete knowledge on Pain's techniques and despite that, he casually attempted to fend off V2 Jin with Precognition in his 6th Gates state despite anticipating one of the techniques they would've used being Shinra Tensei. You thinking Shinra Tensei instantly OHKO's 7th Gate Gai is laughable.



ok. so 7th gate gai is super durable then. scans of gates increasing durability?



> How would Nagato know that he'd be unable to react to his speed?



when gai instantly appears in his face? before gai decides to go for a punch or kick




> Because he'd simply use Bansho Tenin to increase his acceleration further and slam Nagato into the ground.



so u assume for the sake of ur lol argument that nagato uses BT. I say he uses ST

could just assume he summons all the animals in animal path repertoire and hides. 

or could assume gai trips while running 

getting in juudara face doesn't suddenly mean everyone weaker cant react to 7th gate gai. it certainly wasn't the impression I got

or kishi would have hyped 7th gate to shits the way he did 8th gate 

inhuman movement vs gaara saying oh my god he is basically a god and what not. 

but at least u are consistent I give u that

7th gate gai>>>>>>>>>>hashirama, madara, EMS sasuke, BSM Naruto, juubito etc

cuz u know all of them are weaker and got slower reactions than juudara right


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yet didn't know nagato was a sensor.



 Sure he did. This assumption being made is based on a misinterpretation of what Kabuto had stated. You seriously think he didn't overhear Nagato claiming that he sensed the pressure build-up within Itachi's eye?





> true we aren't talking about that nagato though are we





 I edited my post. 





> ok. so 7th gate gai is super durable then. scans of gates increasing durability?



 It doesn't, but Shinra Tensei's effect on a person is depedant on the acceleration it causes on their opponent. If Gai started the same distance as he did from Juubidara and Nagato attempts to ST, it isn't doing much damage at all as the acceleration also depends on the distance and if Gai is capable of reducing the acceleration of the push, then it's essentially doing nothing.





> when gai instantly appears in his face? before gai decides to go for a punch or kick



 Wait, so you're assuming Nagato would be able to perceive his location at the last moment when it took Juubidara that long to register 7th Gate Gai's position?





> so u assume for the sake of ur lol argument that nagato uses BT. I say he uses ST



 I'm not. It's far more credible that he'd use Bansho Tenin considering he did so against KCM Naruto and did so against SM Naruto to subdue him easily rather than doing so with Shinra Tensei.



> could just assume he summons all the animals in animal path repertoire and hides.
> 
> or could assume gai trips while running



 I'm arguing with a brick wall. 



> getting in juudara face doesn't suddenly mean everyone weaker cant react to 7th gate gai. it certainly wasn't the impression I got



 It means everyone substantially weaker can't perceive Gai's movements. 



> or kishi would have hyped 7th gate to shits the way he did 8th gate



 7th Gate Gai was already hyped when he blew Juubidara's expectations of his strength out of the water.



> inhuman movement vs gaara saying oh my god he is basically a god and what not.
> 
> but at least u are consistent I give u that



 Madara's feat wasn't an example of speed whereas Gai's was. 



> 7th gate gai>>>>>>>>>>hashirama, madara, EMS sasuke, BSM Naruto, juubito etc
> 
> cuz u know all of them are weaker and got slower reactions than juudara right



 Arguably as they have the proper defense needed to block his attacks whereas Nagato doesn't.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

> NarutoX28 said:
> 
> 
> > Sure he did. This assumption being made is based on a misinterpretation of what Kabuto had stated. You seriously think he didn't overhear Nagato claiming that he sensed the pressure build-up within Itachi's eye?
> ...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2015)

SM Naruto.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

What I find most comical about you NarutoX28 
is you are willing to claim nagato is far more likely to use BT and that it may even succeed but somehow cant use ST despite them activating just as quickly they are basically the same jutsu in opposite sense. no different from obito phasing and kamui wrapping 

so somehow nagato may be able to BT but not ST

goes to show the BS you come up with. Hope u read ST before replying because your joke on gai stopping the acceleration from nagato ST. when his path can level a village made me laugh



> Users:Nagato
> Invisible hand of God, that repels anything in creation!
> Pain Tendou uses this jutsu, utilizing the generated from the users hands repulsive (gravity) force to repel targets away. The number of targets that can be repelled and their size are irrelevant . In addition by stopping the utilization of other Pain paths the amount of chakra put in the jutsu, its strength and area of effect can be greatly increased. With one strike of its power entire Konoha no sato (Konoha village) was turned to smoldering ash. But after this jutsu has been triggered there is a small five second window it can't be used again. The originating repulsion force generated by the power of all creation”shinra obiki” (something that binds all together,so likely gravitation) forces its targets to collide together with a great force and put out additional damage, combined together with the initial force (shock wave) it puts up even more damage. Only those who can manipulate all chakra transformation properties (seishitsu) legendary “Rinnegan” wielders are allowed to posses this jutsu that has all rights to be called “crystally perfect”.
> Picture: Its repulsion force is so strong that even ninjutsu and taijutsu are equally ineffective against this jutsu, with an unexpected discharge of the invisible force, it is very easy to catch opponents off guard .
> ...



do tell me where the DB says the opponent acceleration matters


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 5, 2015)

Deadway said:


> This is pointless. The manga is full of inconsistency.
> 
> Sage Minato bamflashed next to Madara and got rekt in less than one second based on Kamui speed feats. 1 Second.
> 
> ...



When did Gai blitz Madara? I must be reading a different manga...

A blitz means that you got attacked so fast that you didnt have time to react. The steam of the gates and all the pressure and debris from the gates were distracting and blocking his vision. However madara still reacted.

Only reason he didnt put gai down the moment he appeared os because madara didn't see him until the last moment. So madara was forced to back peddle and regain his bearings,

Once he recomposed himself, we saw what happened, Gai launched his FASTEST PUNCH (cannot stress this enough). And Madara countered it, he sliced it in half the exact same way he sliced minatos arm. Difference being that Gais attack is way faster than minatos attakck, het was still countered the same way.

In reply to anyone else who thinks 7G Gai showed incredible speed, madara was back peddljng, backward hopping. U think anyine who beleives gai madara hobbling backwards = speed.. Should just log off. Only speed feat gai showed was when he appeared in front of madara while he was blinded. And then it was off panel when he moved.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

@rasen I sort of agree however
You are undervaluing what Gai did 

His CQC ability was enough to make madara back peddle 

Which means anyone caught in cqc in that situation is going to die if they don't have an automatic defense 

However yes I agree that his speed is being horribly overestimated when that wasn't even what gaara mentioned 

If he was that fast madara would have at least mentioned it 

Also his fastest punch was blocked with the same ease as Minato attack


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I agree
> Now I ask u the same question about Nagato
> Does he get  blitz when he got a Jutsu as quick to activate as obito ?


If Gai is already in the 7th-Gate and initiating his first step then imo it could go either way as to if Nagato could raise his arm and direct and cast ST before Gai closes the gap and knocks Nagato's teeth out. So 50/50 chance. 

And while you might argue that ST can be activated as fast as Kamui intangibility, Obito only requires a mental activation while Nagato must first make a physical movement to raise his arm and aim it at the direction of his target, which very well could be the difference in casting ST in time or not against someone with 7th-Gate Gai's speed.


----------



## Deadway (Jul 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> not inconsistency so much as misunderstanding of the panels
> 
> getting in juudara face wasn't impressive. it was gai skill in cqc.


Skill in CQC? There was no skill in CQC there whatsoever, he straight up ran up to him and started swinging away.



Icegaze said:


> fact is in cqc he is >>>>>>>>everyone else so there was no helping that


Missing the point.


Icegaze said:


> also note juudara knew all there is to know about hirashin and is a sensor. so knowing minato will pop in front of him is a given.


And Madara knew all there is to know about Hachimon as he commented about it. Still doesn't change anything. Fodder knew about the hiraishin of the yellow flash, doesn't mean they were ever prepared for it.


Icegaze said:


> juudara I don't think had as much info on 8 gates, while he knew about them he hasn't fought or had years of vendetta against a gated user. while a hirashin user, well we know how he felt about tobirama, he even knew tobirama ET


He never fought Tobirama, it was always Izuna who fought him. 


Icegaze said:


> so more info helped juudara here, that and minato is simply less skilled in cqc than gai.


Missing the point. Not talking about CQC skill. It's speed here.


Icegaze said:


> I just don't get why its the getting in juudara face that Is impressive and talked about and not his cqc ability


.....



Icegaze said:


> what I should be hearing more is if gai gets in cqc he wins. not he shit blitz and no one can react.


............
The whole issue here is speed, don't know why you and many other people don't see that.
Minato attacked Madara at arguably faster speeds than normal due to SM and was countered and defeated before he even knew what happened. That's a feat towards how FAST Madara is in terms of movement and reactions. Against Gai, Madara barely reacted to his speed and couldn't counter his attacks. That's a feat towards how FAST Gai is in 7th Gates. See the difference?




RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> When did Gai blitz Madara? I must be reading a different manga...
> 
> A blitz means that you got attacked so fast that you didnt have time to react. The steam of the gates and all the pressure and debris from the gates were distracting and blocking his vision. However madara still reacted.


Madara has little to no reaction to Minato's bamflash in SM
According to Sasuke, as fast as Killerbee was in tailed beast form, he was confident he could anticipate his moments due to them being linear, in other words he can prevent himself from being blitzed.

Gai move in a linear fashion towards Madara with his initial attack and look at Madara's reaction.
Exclamation mark with that face says it all.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Only reason he didnt put gai down the moment he appeared os because madara didn't see him until the last moment. So madara was forced to back peddle and regain his bearings,


What? Madara only saw Minato for a split second or even less than that and still had time to destroy him and everyone else. That makes no sense.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Once he recomposed himself, we saw what happened, Gai launched his FASTEST PUNCH (cannot stress this enough). And Madara countered it, he sliced it in half the exact same way he sliced minatos arm. Difference being that Gais attack is way faster than minatos attakck, het was still countered the same way.


Except Gai's fastest punch happens AFTER he creates the seal. For someone who stresses reading in the manga as being important this is a sad argument. Madara had the exclamation mark right after he saw the hand sign, something he already witnesses in base. If there was no hand sign and he launched it right away and Madara effortlessly reacted, then yes. That's not the case here. 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> In reply to anyone else who thinks 7G Gai showed incredible speed, madara was back peddljng, backward hopping. U think anyine who beleives gai madara hobbling backwards = speed.. Should just log off. Only speed feat gai showed was when he appeared in front of madara while he was blinded. And then it was off panel when he moved.



Gai's taijutsu shots at Madara were considered not human by Gaara. According to you, that's not a speed feat. Maybe you should log off and take some time to think about what you just said.


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> And while you might argue that ST can be activated as fast as Kamui intangibility, Obito only requires a mental activation *while Nagato must first make a physical movement to raise his arm and aim it at the direction of his target,* which very well could be the difference in casting ST in time or not against someone with 7th-Gate Gai's speed.



Well actually Nagato doesn't have to raise his arm or anything that to use ST. Here we see Deva path use ST without moving his arms forward, here Deva uses ST without moving his arms,then Deva did it again. I don't know if raising his arm makes it easier or if it'll be less powerful or something of that nature but he doesn't need to move to use it so just like Obito, all Nagato "only requires a mental activation" to use it.


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## Black Superman (Jul 5, 2015)

I can see him  beating Gaara or Kakashi on a good day.


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## StickaStick (Jul 5, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Well actually Nagato doesn't have to raise his arm or anything that to use ST. Here we see Deva path use ST without moving his arms forward, here Deva uses ST without moving his arms,then Deva did it again. I don't know if raising his arm makes it easier or if it'll be less powerful or something of that nature but he doesn't need to move to use it so just like Obito, all Nagato "only requires a mental activation" to use it.


Yeah you're completely right. I was thinking about the instance swhen he did move his arm to direct it and forgot these.

In that case Nagato should be able to react to Gai's initial step easily with ST. As you pointed out however whether aiming his arm and directing it first would make a difference as to ST's potency is something to consider as Nagato would need a faily strong ST to stop Gai's momentum and on top of that push him back far enough to the point where Gai couldn't capitalize on his cool-down.


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> If Gai is already in the 7th-Gate and initiating his first step then imo it could go either way as to if Nagato could raise his arm and direct and cast ST before Gai closes the gap and knocks Nagato's teeth out. So 50/50 chance.
> 
> And while you might argue that ST can be activated as fast as Kamui intangibility, Obito only requires a mental activation while Nagato must first make a physical movement to raise his arm and aim it at the direction of his target, which very well could be the difference in casting ST in time or not against someone with 7th-Gate Gai's speed.



You see this is what I dislike with fan bias 

We have seen deva path not once but about 4 times use ST with no physical movement at all . In fact the first time he uses the Jutsu no physical movement . No arms were moved 

So yes it does activate as fast as kamui . 

ST is also omnidirectional so he doesn't even have to direct the attack but what annoys me is you know this but somehow claim otherwise 

Try and read deva vs Kakashi fight again. Btw I know u remember that battle . 

Edit : I just saw your convo with bonly sorry 
Just saying why do what you just did ?


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

@deadway
Why I say it's not speed is because Minato basically got In juudara face with the same ease Gai did 

What set them apart was Gai cqc skill which is onvi


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

I wonder about 7th Gate Gai.

He was supposed to be slower than A.

But A was supposed to be slower than Minato.

But Gai's speed was better against Madara than SM Minato's.

So we end up with Blue Gai < v2 A < Minato ≤ SM Minato < Blue Gai < Red Gai.


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

@deadway
Minato got in juudara face with the same ease 
What sets Gai appart was his cqc skill which involves technique and attack speed . His movements were fast and unpredictable 

However if the intention of Kishi was to truly show that Gai in 7th gate was that fast why have juudara troll his fastest punch with the same ease as he did Minato attack ?

What Gai did was far more than speed since when he opted for a super fast punch he got smacked

The exchange was about attacking madara while avoiding omyoton and moving in such a manner as to stay unpredictable 

Ps: madara in a war would have fought Tobirama or seen his techs first hand . Considering the guy knows all there is to know about EDo tensei and even Tobirama fighting style 

So either he watched tobirama fights or fought him or izuna told him 

Fact is the guy had extensive knowledge on hirashin


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I wonder about 7th Gate Gai.
> 
> He was supposed to be slower than A.
> 
> ...



If it was really a speed thing why did his fastest attack get slapped with the same ease as Minato attack

It was about Gai skill there and his unpredictable movement . Not omg Gai is so fast


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2015)

Minato is faster than A because of Hirashin, his actualy movement speed isn't even comparale, not even in SM.
And A is faster than Gai in linear movement(shunshin burst), his regular punches or kicks or other body manuevers may not be fast as Gai's.

Body speed(no shunshin) 7 gated Gai > A > Minato


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

I'm talking about overall speed. Of course Minato needs Hiraishin to be faster than A, but he used Hiraishin to attack Madara, so....yeah.


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

Fighting speed Gai would lead the 2 but moving from point A to B 
Minato leaves them behind 

Gai movement isn't just about speed but skill . His attacks aren't as straight forward as A . He uses a more refined style of fighting than clumsy strikes 

But I don't get why pushing juudara back gets the hype it does 

Cuz I could say A blitz madara who was only able to block 

Therefore anyone with slower reactions dies. Which isnt really the case at all 

Considering there aren't that many people stronger than ET madara .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm talking about overall speed. Of course Minato needs Hiraishin to be faster than A, but he used Hiraishin to attack Madara, so....yeah.



He closed the distance with Hirashin but once he appeared in front of Madara, he was relying on his body speed and it simply didn't cut it.

Gai can deliver consecutive hits with his max speed.


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

You're not saying anything I don't know. 

Let me put it this way:

Who's "faster," Minato or 7th Gate Gai?


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## StickaStick (Jul 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Edit : I just saw your convo with bonly sorry
> *Just saying why do what you just did ?*


What do you mean? Say that Deva/Nagato can't use ST without directing and aiming his arm first? Because as I replied to Bonly I forgot about those other instances


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## LostSelf (Jul 5, 2015)

If it's the way Minato attacked Juudara, then, Gai would be more effective and faster in the long run (even though Minato will get there faster before using his body speed).


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> What do you mean? Say that Deva/Nagato can't use ST without directing and aiming his arm first? Because as I replied to Bonly I forgot about those other instances



I know u forgot 
I assumed it was intentional trolling 
Till I read ur post with bonly


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You're not saying anything I don't know.
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> Who's "faster," Minato or 7th Gate Gai?



Not directed at me 
But minato is


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You're not saying anything I don't know.
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> Who's "faster," Minato or 7th Gate Gai?



Minato obviously. 

I am just arguing that Hirashin is a circumstance based jutsu. There are certain instances where Hirashin may not be as combat effective as natural body speed. Though I admit that would mostly be the outlier.


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2015)

What do you guys mean by Madara intercepted Gai's fastest punch? If I remember correctly, Gai finished his fastest punch and executed Hirudora. Hirudora  (which comes after the fastest punch) after being executed got cut down....not the punch, otherwise Gai would be missing his hands.


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## Mercurial (Jul 5, 2015)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> I can see him  beating Gaara or Kakashi on a good day.



Gai casually negs Gaara. He just blitzes the sand and stomps Gaara. He will need the 6th Gate at the very max, he can fight easily in base and win with a couple of Gates if Gaara is in a closed environment, he fodderstomps with the 7th Gate if Gaara is in the desert.

MS Kakashi vs Gai can go either way, really.



Deadway said:


> This is pointless. The manga is full of inconsistency.
> 
> *Sage Minato bamflashed next to Madara and got rekt in less than one second based on Kamui speed feats. 1 Second.
> 
> ...



7th Gate Gai didn't blitz Juudara, but pressured really heavily with his speed, to the point that even if Juudara could react to his speed and dodge/parry his taijutsu, he couldn't make in time to counterattack. That's incredible when you think how easily Juudara counterattacked SM Minato's Hiraishin blitz, negging him before he could even finish his attack, when Gai managed to push him back with his quick taijutsu combo and to launch his attack, even if it was countered and he was defeated in the end, he performed far better than Minato. Then he went 8th Gate and literally kicked Juudara's ass.

Well that's not surprising, only delusional people could think that a secondary character like Ei could really be the fastest, except for Minato and Naruto, just because self proclamed to be that. The manga is full of people self proclaiming things that feats proved to be wrong, sadly for them.

Kakashi was just faster than Sasuke. War Arc Kakashi was faster than pre Rikudo power up Sasuke, and with both getting powered up by Rikudo chakra, Sasuke wasn't still as fast as his past sensei. It's worth note that Kakashi blitzed the strongest and fastest version of Kaguya that powered up herself absorbing a shit-ton of chakra from the Mugen Tsukuyomi victims (word of Black Zetsu) while Sasuke couldn't hit a less powerful version of Kaguya that dodged him with ease. Kamui Raikiri is hyped not only for hax and power but for speed too, and feats are well known, as it's said, action speak louder than words (1).



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> When did Gai blitz Madara? I must be reading a different manga...
> 
> A blitz means that you got attacked so fast that you didnt have time to react. The steam of the gates and all the pressure and debris from the gates were distracting and blocking his vision. However madara still reacted.
> 
> ...



He didn't blitz him, true. But he pressured him a lot, otherwise Juudara would have just counterblitzed him once he was attacked, like he did with Minato.

Not at all. Juudara immediately counterblitzed SM Minato once he appeared in front of him, he wasn't able to immediately counterblitz 7th Gate Gai. Juudara didn't let SM Minato do nothing, not even complete the attack he tried, while he couldn't do the same against 7th Gate Gai, Gai pushed him back, and managed to complete his attack, it just wasn't powerful enough; Juudara had to resort to overpower him, he couldn't just counterblitz him like he did with Minato, because Gai's speed didn't let him to do so.


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## Icegaze (Jul 6, 2015)

Jad said:


> What do you guys mean by Madara intercepted Gai's fastest punch? If I remember correctly, Gai finished his fastest punch and executed Hirudora. Hirudora  (which comes after the fastest punch) after being executed got cut down....not the punch, otherwise Gai would be missing his hands.



hirudora is the fastest punch as stated by gai 

hirudora my faster than any other punch 

hirudora doesnt come after the fastest punch, its the fastest punch 

gai wont be missing his hands since the compressed air is what was sliced through not gai hands 

remember evening elephant what was hitting juudara was the compressed air, not gai fist directly. only once did gai make contact with his fist 

no different here. hirudora>>>anything gai can do in 7th gate and that was countered casually

@raikiri19 
gai pressuring juudara was speed no doubt but also skill and his movement in taijutsu which was far from linear and predictable like minato attack 

when gai tried to use speed, i.e hirudora it was countered easily. i think those panels showed more of gai skill than speed, since clearly kishi couldnt have been implying 7th gate speed is enough to do anything to juudara

when juudara could still react to 8th gate who is several dozens of times stronger. when you imagine the slowest weakest punch from 8th gate is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hirudora in speed and power. 

yet juudara reacted.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 6, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Lol SM naruto gets stomped against 7th gate  guy hussain,
> 
> as for the matchups,
> Guy wrecks Kisame, loses to nagato and can possibly beat minato under favorable conditions though he still loses to him more times than not



Agree with Nagato's case, because Gai needs to activate 7 Gate first.

Agree with Kisame's case.

But Gai beats Minato more times than not.


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## Icegaze (Jul 7, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I dont know if that's realy true.
> 
> And "a very fast punch" obviously does not = fastest punch.



why call it a very fast punch then? very fast compared to what if i may ask? it wont be a special very fast punch if any other basic punch he could throw was just as fast



> It still needs a time to focus air pressure on a single point. It still can be just slightly faster than any other 7 Gate punch. Plus, it requires a seal.



prove it needs time. slightly faster or faster it puts it above his basic attacks which makes obvious sense. 



> The first one is debatable.
> 
> And all 7 Gate punches are very fast.



true. hirudora is just faster. which is my point




> That attack hit Juubidara. But later, Juubidara managed to block it because it started from a long range.
> 
> Evening Elephant's first step doesnt seem to be like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster. It is faster, but not to that extent .



it is though. look at what it did to juudara compared to what hirudora did 



> Why not?



lol



> It is obvious that 7 Gate Gai was super-fast when somebody with Rinnegan and Sage sensing was surprised by him.



never said he isnt. my point is people with auto defense far weaker than juudara should still be able to react and counter

why on earth would 7th gate gai be far above BSM naruto for example. who btw couldnt blitz juubito who is much weaker than juudara



> Gai cant beat anyone, but he can beat almost anyone if the fight starts with Gai being already in 7 Gate.



 but he can go 7th gate no sweat 



> Juubidara just stood there and was in the same position as when he confronted SM Edo Minato.
> 
> His face expressions are speaking for himself.



agreed gai speed surprised him

that however doesnt translate and shouldnt translate to gai can GG everyone weaker than juudara cuz of it, if he starts in 7th gate or in base. since he can power up casually anywayz


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## StarWanderer (Jul 7, 2015)

> why call it a very fast punch then? very fast compared to what if i may ask? it wont be a special very fast punch if any other basic punch he could throw was just as fast



Maybe he just wanted to tell Kisame that it is a very fast punch. It's not nessessary to add " compared to" part there. 



> prove it needs time. slightly faster or faster it puts it above his basic attacks which makes obvious sense.



Did Gai say that it "instantly" concentrates air pressure? No. Here you go. 

Of course. But if it is slightly faster, than there is nothing wrong with Juubidara countering Hirudora with his staff.



> true. hirudora is just faster. which is my point



May be, may be not. And even if it is faster - how much faster it is compare to other 7 Gate attacks?



> it is though. look at what it did to juudara compared to what hirudora did



Gai needs to move close to Juubidara in order to hit him. Nothing wrong with Juubidara blocking EE's first step, which Gai performed it after getting close to him.



> lol



First, there was a distance between Gai and Juubidara before EE's first step, which Juubidara blocked. Second, show me a scan where Gai says so about 6th Gate. Third, if 6 gate realy cant be compared with 7 Gate at all, that doesnt prove 7 Gate cant be at least slightly compared with 8 Gate. 



> never said he isnt. my point is people with auto defense far weaker than juudara should still be able to react and counter
> 
> why on earth would 7th gate gai be far above BSM naruto for example. who btw couldnt blitz juubito who is much weaker than juudara



7 Gate Gai cant do anything to BSM Naruto because of Naruto's durability. And realy? Blitz Juubito? Can you show me a scan of that?

Anyway, i agree that there are some people who can react to 7 Gate Gai a little bit bar Juubidara and Juubito.


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## Icegaze (Jul 7, 2015)

> StarWanderer said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe he just wanted to tell Kisame that it is a very fast punch. It's not nessessary to add " compared to" part there.
> ...


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## StarWanderer (Jul 7, 2015)

> common buddy. stop it! very fast is very fast. he didnt say oh btw all my punches are this fast but i thought i should specifically talk about this my special punch which isnt so special since every other punch is as fast as this one, but i want u to be friends with this specific punch



Common buddy, stop it? You are trying to equilise "very fast punch" and "the fastest punch" statement. That is completely unlogical, irrational and wrong. He didnt have to say to Kisame that all of his attacks are fast - he wanted to explain Hirudora to Kisame. That's all.



> no he said his fastest punch creates the air pressure which launches at u and trolls u
> 
> he didnt say the air pressure builds up, while i tell u to wait for it and get hit by it



Did he say that it instantly creates the air pressure?



> concession accepted. it is faster...i ignore the slightly. and yes juudara countered his fastest attack easily



It is unlogical to ignore the "slightly" thing. Juubidara managed to avoid 7 Gate Gai's attacks and countered a slightly faster attack which requires a sign that Juubidara saw before Hirudora was created. It seems you cant see why your arguement is nullified if Hirudora is just slightly faster, or you are simply trolling. 



> enough for gai to mention it being faster than any other punch



Maybe slightly faster? If yes, then it is not a surprise that Juubidara could counter it with staff when it also needs a sign.



> he coudl only block it. while he swatted hirudora away. its quite obvious first step>>>>>>>>>>7th gate



He blocked it with a difficulty, thanks to the fact Gai wasnt in a close distance with him and had to come closer in order to hit him with 1 step.  7 gate Gai hit Juubidara with Hirudora when he was already in a close distance with him.



> read the kisame battle. their last one. he clearly says hirudora is on a whole other level to asa kujaku



Maybe in terms of distructive potential? Too lazy to read that chapter again. Anyway, you made a statement, so it is up to you to prove anything to me.



> i said he couldnt blitz juubito
> 
> so if BSM naruto cant blitz juubito who is weaker than juudara then using ur logic 7th gate gai should kick naruto head off without him being able to see gai all together
> 
> however thats BS. gai runs at BSM naruto and gets himself killed



I highly doubt BSM Naruto will be able to fight 7 Gate Gai in a taijutsu match, but 7 Gate Gai cant do anything to him, as i mentioned before.

Thats why 7 Gate Gai loses to BSM Naruto.



> list them and explain why
> 
> thats what i want to know
> 
> ...



BSM Naruto is saved by his durability. And Itachi Uchiha could react to Kirin. So there is a chance for him to create Susanoo in order to protect himself from 7 Gate Gai. The same is with EMS Madara Uchiha, for example. Or EMS Sasuke. 

Hashirama has regeneration comparable to that of Tsunade and in his Sage Mode, he can easily tank anything 7 Gate Gai has, even Hirudora. 

But anyway, Gai himself cant beat top tiers because he will be killed before opening 7 Gate, or after that, since top tiers can activate jutsu's which can counter 7 Gate firepower.


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## Icegaze (Jul 7, 2015)

> StarWanderer said:
> 
> 
> > Common buddy, stop it? You are trying to equilise "very fast punch" and "the fastest punch" statement. That is completely unlogical, irrational and wrong. He didnt have to say to Kisame that all of his attacks are fast - he wanted to explain Hirudora to Kisame. That's all.
> ...


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## StarWanderer (Jul 7, 2015)

> am not. am saying regardless of the translation you want to hold on to. the emphasis was simple. hirudora>>> basic punch
> 
> why didnt he explain the next punch to kisame. before knockign kisame out? you know since gai likes to explain basic punches and what not



If Mangafox's translation is the right one, than it is not his fastest punch in 7 Gate. If not, than the quastion is, by what margin it is faster than any other 7 Gate's punches.

Kisame said that he thought it was a chakra form, then Gai started to explain him the attack with which he immobilised him. That's all.



> he didnt say he doesnt



He didnt say that it instanteniously creates air pressure. That means air pressure's creation takes time. A very short time period, but, nevertheless, *time period*. 



> its not when its slightly because u want it to be.
> 
> translations so far are
> 
> ...



"Faster than any other punch","fastest punch" and "very fast punch" are not equals to "A punch way faster than any other", or "a punch a lot faster than any other". 

It may be a lot faster, or slightly faster. If it is faster at all. 

We dont know if it is faster and, if it is faster, by what margin it is faster than any other punch. So your arguement "he blocked Gai's fastest punch so he may be trolling around" isnt very suitable for this debate. It simply doesnt work.



> which is taken into account when he calls it his fastest punch. not fastest, or very fast but without including the hand sign which slows me down for the lolz



It doesnt slow him down, but it gave an opportunity for Juubidara to recognise what he is gonna get.

Imagine a boxing match. One boxer is attacking the other and, at one moment, the one who attacks cries out loud and puts himself in a stance as if he is gonna hit his opponent with a swing. The one who is attacked recognises it, waits for swing, which appeared to be attacker's fastest punch and counter-attacks. That's what happened with 7 Gate Gai and Juubidara. 



> lol u mean when he swung down?



In order to hit Juubidara with EE's first step, which Juubidara blocked, Gai had to cross a distance. 7 Gate Gai didnt have to do that, because he was already in a close distance with Juubidara. 



> dont be lazy read it
> 
> hardly gotta prove anything. gai opens 8th gate and kakahsi talks about how it makes him stronger than the 5 kage. gai then proceeds to blitz juudara who this time can barely block. its horrendously obvious that anythign 8th gate>>>>>>>>>7th gate



I can tell you the same - dont be lazy. Bring here a scan. 

But i disagree that Hirudora is like <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< slower then EE's first step. Anyway, Gai had to cross a distance in order to hit Juubidara with EE's first step, which allowed Juubidara to block it.



> never said he would. all am saying is he looses to BSM. cuz BSM can prevent cqc all together regardless of gai attempted blitz
> 
> why cant gai do anythign to him but can to nagato.



Of course he loses to BSM. Because he cant do anything to him.

Because Nagato is not as durable as BSM Naruto. And because Nagato's reaction speed isnt fast enough to prevent 7 Gate Gai from a speedblitz.



> u mean his chakra avatar tails which blocked juubidama he saw coming? that wasnt even BSM
> 
> so then based on the post right above. the whole he got in juudara face becomes entire bullshit then
> 
> ...



Juubidama is not as fast as Juubi Jin's moves.

Itachi activated his Susanoo to survive Kirin's lightning, which hits the ground in 1/1000 of a second. That's thanks to his MS precognition, jutsu activation speed and reaction speed. That's why there is a chance for Itachi and some other Uchiha to create Susanoo before 7 Gate Gai hits them.

Neither Nagato, nor Minato have demonstrated such fast reaction speed. Neither Minato, nor Nagato possess reaction speed fast enough to react to 7 Gate Gai's blitz.



> so then tsunade can tank anything 7th gate has as well? since u just said they are comparable



Tsunade cant, because she doesnt have Sage Mode. If Hashirama is in Sage Mode, he tanks anything 7 Gate Gai has without much of a trouble.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

The very first step of 8 Gate Gai was blocked with a lot more difficulty than 7 Gate Hirudora. Doesnt prove Juubidara was playing around with 7 Gate Gai.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

juudara blocked the first step which is much faster means what it always has. when juudara regained his footing he slapped away hirudora gai fastest technique in 7th gate the end 

BSM naruto speed isnt faster than ST activation. in any case if u need to believe 7th gate gai is as fast as u hope he is thats fine

ps; all translations of hirudora basically emphasize the same thing its a super fast punch. blocked with the same ease as minato attack 

juudara swinging down with a certain lack of interest


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## StarWanderer (Jul 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> juudara blocked the first step which is much faster means what it always has. when juudara regained his footing he slapped away hirudora gai fastest technique in 7th gate the end
> 
> BSM naruto speed isnt faster than ST activation. in any case if u need to believe 7th gate gai is as fast as u hope he is thats fine
> 
> ...



Imagine a boxer fighting in the ring with another boxer. One boxer attacks. The other blocks an attack. They both are not playing with each other and fight seriously. One boxer attacks, but this time, his attack is far faster. Another boxer blocks it, but with a lot more difficulty. Think about this analogy.

Not with the same, not at all. Minato's attack resulted in his hand being chopped off. Can you see Gai's hand being chopped off? No, you cant. 7 Gate Gai could pressure him, surprise him with his speed and avoid a blitz, which SM Edo Minato couldnt avoid, because he is that fast. If He could do something like that to Juubidara, than Nagato has no chance at all of activating ST before 7 Gate Gai comes close and rearrange his face. Nagato has no feats on that magnitude, no feats at all, to suggest he can do anything like that.

"Lack of interest". Yeah, look at his face expression after he saw Hirudora's sign. By the way, explain to me why he couldnt cut off Gai's arms.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

> StarWanderer said:
> 
> 
> > Imagine a boxer fighting in the ring with another boxer. One boxer attacks. The other blocks an attack. They both are not playing with each other and fight seriously. One boxer attacks, but this time, his attack is far faster. Another boxer blocks it, but with a lot more difficulty. Think about this analogy.
> ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 10, 2015)

> hardly makes sense.
> 
> you think juudara blocked hirudora with more difficulty than he did gai previous attacks? while jumping back? if anything he found it easier



Yeah, but he saw Hirudora's sign. 



> and gai resulted in broken ribs and what not. juudara didnt physically strike gai because hirudora was between them.
> 
> 
> still zero reason to believe juudara reaction+physical speed exceeds nagato simply reacting which is all he needs to launch ST
> ...



Broken ribs because of Hirudora's impact. I wonder why Juubidara couldnt cut off his arms, although he saw Hirudora's sign and was feared about it. It seems Hirudora itself was faster than Juubidara's swing. Juubidara could swing with his staff after the air pressure was released, which could be a reason why he couldnt cut off Gai's arms.

We can talk about Nagato reacting to 7 Gate Gai and activating ST before Gai hits him only and *only* when Nagato gets reaction speed feats good enough to suggest that he can react to 7 Gate Gai's speed with his brain. 



> no one bar juudara has feats to suggest they can defend against gai since no one fought against 7th gate gai. so by your logic gai beats all that isnt juudara



Yeah, except those who has durability and who can regenerate.

Plus, there are some indications that some MS and EMS users can create Susanoo before 7 Gate Gai hits them. Itachi could react to a lightning which got from the sky to the ground for 1/1000 of a second. 



> hirudora was fired at him. gai wasnt within range of his staff. did u expect him to cut through hirudora and gai arms? cuz i didnt expect that at all



Well, it seems then that Gai's Hirudora was faster than Juubidara's swing. Because he could swing after air pressure was released to make an impact weaker and to fire some portion of Hirudora's impact back at Gai, which resulted in broken ribs.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

> StarWanderer said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, but he saw Hirudora's sign.
> ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 10, 2015)

> and any proof the hand sign slowed gai down. it certainly didnt slow itachi down when spamming kunai against sasuke did it



What are you talking about?

Juubidara seemed to swing with his staf after Hirudora's air pressure was released, which prevented him from cutting off Gai's hands. Juubidara couldnt do that before air pressure was released, although re recognised a sign and couldnt do that later, due to Hirudora's air pressure.



> yh he shat himself so much. in fear he swung down and trolled the jutsu. lol if it was juudara wont have been able to swing but only blog



He never "trolled" because he wasnt playing around at that moment.



> but no one bar juudara got that. so again are u saying 7th gate gai trolls all but juudara?



Not all but Juubidara. Itachi and EMS users have a chance of using Susanoo before Gai hits them. But that's thanks to their ayes.

Nagato never demonstrated a reaction speed good enough to react to 7 gate Gai's movements.



> list them cuz tsunade can regen but u think she looses



SM Hashirama, Third Raikage, BM Naruto, BSM Naruto, Juubito. Few examples of characters who cant be defeated even by 7 Gate Gai's Hirudora due to either their durability, or both durability and regeneration (SM Hashirama).



> there arent any. nice try. so itachi got reactions to do that. kamui is an ST jutsu which means its instant by very definition and by DB description. want to guess who dodge that?
> 
> amaterasu was directly compared to kirin as in it being impossible to avoid. we know thats BS for amaterasu so i dont see why kirin is any different
> 
> ...



Kamui absorbtion is not instant. You either provide a Databook statement, or that's a lie. But that's a lie anyway, because Obito said once that his Kamui absorbtion was slow. How can it be slow when it is instant? And how Minato could react to it and teleport away if it is instant? That is impossible.

Can you bring up a scan where Amaterasu is said to be as fast as Kirin?

LOL at Kamui having better feats, when even some non-Godlike characters can *move* faster than a Kamui absorbtion. 



> cute explanation
> 
> or gai attack was blocked and it hurt him in the process. the rest is extra bla bla



LOL, concession accepted.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

kirin only feat is beign blocked by itachi

amaterasu only feat being side stepped by A and being out ran by hebi sasuke

kamui, ripping gedo arm before it could be summoned to madara. you do get that summoning is instant right

try harder


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 10, 2015)

Kirin's feat is being the strongest Lightning style jutsu in existence before God-Tier Ninja ever showed up as well as the fact that it's as fast as Lightning. You're significantly underrating Kirin here.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

> being out ran by hebi sasuke



That's false, especially when Itachi didnt want to kill Sasuke with it.



> you do get that summoning is instant right



Do you have any proof of that?

Yeah - try harder, Icegaze.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 11, 2015)

IceGaze, Juubito had to block Amaterasu.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kirin's feat is being the strongest Lightning style jutsu in existence before God-Tier Ninja ever showed up as well as the fact that it's as fast as Lightning. You're significantly underrating Kirin here.



speed wise and hype wise its not anymore impressive than amaterasu so yh 
its just an ok jutsu

Juudara coudlbnt block kamui


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## Ersa (Jul 11, 2015)

He defeats Gaara.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> That's false, especially when Itachi didnt want to kill Sasuke with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




hirashin uses the principle of summoning

so i ask u slow poke. is hirashin instant?


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hirashin uses the principle of summoning
> 
> so i ask u slow poke. is hirashin instant?



Kamui, that is not instant, can be faster than a summoning, which is instant? *Wat?* 
And you call me a slow poke? *LOL*. :

And do you have any proof that Hiraishin is = summoning in terms of technique's speed?


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Kamui, that is not instant, can be faster than a summoning, which is instant? *Wat?*
> And you call me a slow poke? LOL. :
> 
> And do you have any proof that Hiraishin is = summoning in terms of technique's speed?




hirashin is a fucking summoning jutsu
it applies summonign to various locations seriously not sure if u 

Kamui applies principle of ST while it may not be instant as nothing really is, it was still fast enough to rip gedo arm mid summoning

now can gai intercept something that is being summoned to another location before it is summoned there? i really doubt it


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hirashin is a fucking summoning jutsu
> it applies summonign to various locations seriously not sure if u
> 
> Kamui applies principle of ST while it may not be instant as nothing really is, it was still fast enough to rip gedo arm mid summoning
> ...



It seems Madara's summoning was very, very slow, when a long-ranged Kamui could rip out a part of Gedo Mazo and absorb it. The fact long-ranged Kamui could do that proves the fact that summoning is slower than Hiraishin. Because Minato could FTG away before he got absorbed and Kakashi managed to absorb a part of Gedo Mazo before it was summoned.

Yes, Minato can teleport to any location faster than any other. But in a fight, his brain and chakra usage can simply not be fast enough to use Hiraishin. His brain already doesnt have the best reaction speed as there are some non-Godlike characters whose reaction speed feats are better.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It seems Madara's summoning was very, very slow, when a long-ranged Kamui could rip out a part of Gedo Mazo and absorb it. The fact long-ranged Kamui could do that proves the fact that summoning is slower than Hiraishin. Because Minato could FTG away before he got absorbed and Kakashi managed to absorb a part of Gedo Mazo before it was summoned.
> 
> Yes, Minato can teleport to any location faster than any other. But in a fight, his brain and chakra usage can simply not be fast enough to use Hiraishin. His brain already doesnt have the best reaction speed as there are some non-Godlike characters whose reaction speed feats are better.



so now summoning is very very slow 
 u burying urself here

why would madara summonign be any slower than every other summoning when they are all based on the same principle 

hirashin is a summoning jutsu. minato is summoning himself. how can his movement from point A to B be faster than a summon being summoned from point A to B?

kakashi kamui is also faster than obito's something u hilariously forgot 

my point has always been very simple. Sm naruto a shit stain compard to juubito could land a hit on juubito because juubito was tagged. i really dont see how minato who has all the tags in the world to use gets himself blitz by gai off the bat 

when he could still jump away from juubito point blank. btw can u prove KCM improves reflexes?

physical speed and shunshin surely that was already heavily implied. reactions to use hirashin i dont see why it would. 

think thats an improvement kishi wont have failed to mention


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

> so now summoning is very very slow
> u burying urself here
> 
> why would madara summonign be any slower than every other summoning when they are all based on the same principle



Well, if we compare it to the fastest jutsu's, then yeah, it is very slow.

Since when summoning and Hiraishin are exactly the same things? Even the effects of summoning (that white cloud after summon). Can you see it among Hiraishin users?



> hirashin is a summoning jutsu. minato is summoning himself. how can his movement from point A to B be faster than a summon being summoned from point A to B?



Maybe the time between an activation of jutsu and the jutsu itself is slower than in Hiraishin's case? A time have passed after Madara activated the jutsu. Gedo Mazo statue got out of Obito, Kakashi and Minato said few words to each other (seems that Kakashi can talk faster than a process of summoning from point A to point B, yeah? Faster than Hiraishin, yeah?) and only then Kakashi used Kamui. Gedo Mazo statue havent been summoned emmediately after Madara activated the jutsu. Kamui wasnt faster than a process Gedo Mazo's travel from point A to point B due to summoning process.



> kakashi kamui is also faster than obito's something u hilariously forgot



So, Minato got out of slower Kamui when he fought young Obito and could react to exhausted Kakashi's Kamui before attacking Juubidara?

It seems Minato's reaction speed is not as impressive as i thought. 



> my point has always been very simple. Sm naruto a shit stain compard to juubito could land a hit on juubito because juubito was tagged. i really dont see how minato who has all the tags in the world to use gets himself blitz by gai off the bat



SM Naruto appeared behind Juubito's back, with a formed rasengan. He hit him right after he appeared behind his back, due to a very short distance (if there was any distance at all - Juubito's himself was marked). Plus, SM Naruto has shown striking speed greater than that of KCM Naruto and Minato, in his fight with Third Raikage. 

Teleporting away from an attack isnt the same. 

SM Minato couldnt teleport away to prevent Juubidara from chopping his hand off. KCM Minato couldnt teleport away when he was in a close range with Juubito. What makes you think he will be able to teleport away from 7 Gate Gai's strikes? His reaction speed is higher than that of Juubidara?



> when he could still jump away from juubito point blank. btw can u prove KCM improves reflexes?



After Juubito took his hand off. Also, he couldnt teleport away from unstable Juubito's kick.

KCM doesnt improve reflexes? LOL. Compare base young teenager Naruto's reaction speed feats to KCM Naruto's reaction speed feats. See the difference. Or do you think base teenager Naruto can react to V2 Ei's fastest punch? 



> physical speed and shunshin surely that was already heavily implied. reactions to use hirashin i dont see why it would.



Shunshin increase a travel speed. It has never been used to increase striking speed, or reflexes. It allows shinobi to run faster. Running faster than your opponent doesnt mean be generally faster than your opponent. And Tobirama's better performance against Juubito speaks for himself.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 11, 2015)

Gai in 7th Gate defeating Nagato? That's laughable. 
The strongest he beats is Kisame (nerfed) or Yondaime Raikage.

I think Kisame is far stronger than Gai (7th Gate) when he's at full power. 
If there's manga knowledge between them, Gai won't kill Kisame unless he uses Red Steam... and even that would just be a draw.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

base Naruto can react to A punch. he simply cant get out of the way or move at all because his physical speed is far too slow

I need on panel statements of KCM improving reactions. u clearly cant provide any 

sorry I don't panel squint 

like I said if minato marked juubito. he would have done all tobirama did. simply because marking the enemy gives an ST user an undeniable advantage 

minato reactions doesn't need to exceed juudara to get out of gai way. since minato moving from point A to B would exceed juudara speed

it doesn't matter how fast juudara is he cannot get behind gai back instantly. while minato can by letting go of a kunai


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

> base Naruto can react to A punch. he simply cant get out of the way or move at all because his physical speed is far too slow



Prove that. 



> I need on panel statements of KCM improving reactions. u clearly cant provide any



I dont need them. Going by feats, KCM Naruto's reaction speed is clearly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that of base teenager Naruto. Base Naruto doesnt have reaction speed feats to say his reaction speed stayed the same when he used KCM.



> like I said if minato marked juubito. he would have done all tobirama did. simply because marking the enemy gives an ST user an undeniable advantage



Minato doesnt have the necessary reflexes to mark Juubito.



> minato reactions doesn't need to exceed juudara to get out of gai way. since minato moving from point A to B would exceed juudara speed



Juubidara's brain speed is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that of Minato. 7 Gate Gai's movement speed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minato's brain speed. He cant react to 7 Gate Gai's movements and that is the reason why he wont be able to escape.



> it doesn't matter how fast juudara is he cannot get behind gai back instantly. while minato can by letting go of a kunai



Letting kunai to do with Gai the same thing he did with Ei requires necessary physical speed (letting kunai by his hand) and reaction speed. Minato doesnt have neither of those. 7 Gate Gai takes his head off.


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## Icegaze (Jul 12, 2015)

u made the claim KCM improves reactions. u have to prove it does.

not the other way round. 

but in any case am bored of this argument


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u made the claim KCM improves reactions. u have to prove it does.
> 
> not the other way round.
> 
> but in any case am bored of this argument



 KCM does improve reactions. It explains why he managed to keep up with the Raikage as stated by Tsunade or why he managed to react to Itachi far better than Killer Bee did or why he managed to react to Nagato's Meteor while being pulled by Bansho Tenin.


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## Icegaze (Jul 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> KCM does improve reactions. It explains why he managed to keep up with the Raikage as stated by Tsunade or why he managed to react to Itachi far better than Killer Bee did or why he managed to react to Nagato's Meteor while being pulled by Bansho Tenin.



all of those show case an increase in speed which obviously is what KCM does. as stated in DB and in the manga

tsunade refers to his speed not reactions. 

So like i said feel free to prove it improves reactions 

eg: genin rock lee was faster than sasuke dont mean his reactions were as good.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> all of those show case an increase in speed which obviously is what KCM does. as stated in DB and in the manga



 When referencing the Raikage, they refer to both speed and reflexes hence why C also mentioned reaction speed.



> tsunade refers to his speed not reactions.



 She made that statement after KCM Naruto reacted to Ei's movement speed, hence why he managed to Flicker in response to his speed. 



> So like i said feel free to prove it improves reactions
> 
> eg: genin rock lee was faster than sasuke dont mean his reactions were as good.



 What in the actual fuck? You haven't proven to me why my instances are invalid.


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## Icegaze (Jul 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> When referencing the Raikage, they refer to both speed and reflexes hence why C also mentioned reaction speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 C mentions both his reflexes and speed separately why u being slow? also DB says RCM specifically boosts reflexes and speed

nope u claim it gives a reaction boost. am saying prove it. naruto dodging A would have more to do with his speed than reactions. 

even if he had the reactions for it, if he didnt have the speed he would have gotten his face smashed

in any case my point is KCM naruto avoided A, minato counter attacked him

yamato statement puts minato as superior 

and finally Db puts minato as superior 

So thats 3 reasons to point out minato is faster than KCM naruto. 

Now what i would love for you to prove is young A is slower than his older self. feats would be bullshit since young A had one fight. not like he got hit by amaterasu or something 

so where is your proof

base A has no feats of mountain crossing shunshin does that makign slower than base bee?


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## StarWanderer (Jul 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u made the claim KCM improves reactions. u have to prove it does.
> 
> not the other way round.
> 
> but in any case am bored of this argument



No problem - KCM improves reactions because KCM Naruto could react to V1 and V2 Raikage Ei's speed, could react to Edo Itachi in CQC while weakened and could react to Third Raikage. KCM Naruto's reaction speed feats are many times better than those of base teenager Naruto. That's why KCM Naruto has a lot better reaction speed than base teenager Naruto. Why? Because KCM amps reaction speed. 

Base Naruto has no feats on KCM Naruto's magnitude. So your statement that base teenager Naruto and KCM Naruto have the same reaction speed is just your own fantasy.


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## Icegaze (Jul 13, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No problem - KCM improves reactions because KCM Naruto could react to V1 and V2 Raikage Ei's speed, could react to Edo Itachi in CQC while weakened and could react to Third Raikage. KCM Naruto's reaction speed feats are many times better than those of base teenager Naruto. That's why KCM Naruto has a lot better reaction speed than base teenager Naruto. Why? Because KCM amps reaction speed.
> 
> Base Naruto has no feats on KCM Naruto's magnitude. So your statement that base teenager Naruto and KCM Naruto have the same reaction speed is just your own fantasy.




when did base naruto not react to V1 A or V2 A? and i mean react. i.e see A moving towards him 

when did base naruto not react to edo itachi in cqc 

again when did base naruto not react to 3rd raikage 

seriously if thats the bulk of your argument i cant fucking be asked

you are working on a negative. base naruto didnt react to this or that cuz well it never happened that he faced those people therefore he cant

thats the height of retardation

thats why solely relying on feats is stupid at best. when you have DB, manga statements etc. 

sasori has no feats of breaching jiriaya toad mouth trap does that mean he cant?


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## StarWanderer (Jul 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> when did base naruto not react to V1 A or V2 A? and i mean react. i.e see A moving towards him
> 
> when did base naruto not react to edo itachi in cqc
> 
> ...



There is no proof base teenager Naruto had the same reactions as KCM Naruto. He doesnt have feats comparable to those of KCM Naruto. That means, KCM Naruto's reaction speed is way faster. Better feats - faster reaction speed. That's how debates work - either feats, or manga statements, or DB statements which are not countered by manga in any way. Using those, you can say at what power/speed level character is.


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## Icegaze (Jul 13, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> There is no proof base teenager Naruto had the same reactions as KCM Naruto. He doesnt have feats comparable to those of KCM Naruto. That means, KCM Naruto's reaction speed is way faster. Better feats - faster reaction speed. That's how debates work - either feats, or manga statements, or DB statements which are not countered by manga in any way. Using those, you can say at what power/speed level character is.



there is no proof against it either. 

he also never had the same fights. 

KCM naruto speed is way faster as that was stated clear as day. why not mention his reactions?

but then thats retarded. naruto never had any fights against those people to say he cant react to them. to say he cant avoid them yes thats clear as day as it was stated KCM= boost in speed 

minato has no feats of avoiding amaterasu. does that mean he cant? he also has never moved so fast an MS user saw an after image of him does that suddenly make A faster?

if so pretty sure A would said i am faster now. considering hirashin cant be any faster than it is or was at the time of their fight


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## StarWanderer (Jul 13, 2015)

> there is no proof against it either.



We can judge only by what we've seen. That's how debates work. Why do you think alive EMS Madara's reaction speed is higher than that of KCM Naruto? Because he has better feats. 

So, unless you give me a proof that base teenager Naruto has a reaction speed comparable to that of KCM Naruto, he doesnt have such a fast reaction speed. Because there is no proof of that in manga, or Databook. 



> he also never had the same fights.



That is not important. And he couldnt do anythink against Hebi Sasuke. He was cut against MS Sasuke. His general performances are not even close to those of KCM Naruto's.



> KCM naruto speed is way faster as that was stated clear as day. why not mention his reactions?/QUOTE]
> 
> It is not important to mention his reactions, when it is obvious KCM improves reaction speed due to KCM naruto's performances.
> 
> ...


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## Icegaze (Jul 13, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> We can judge only by what we've seen. That's how debates work. Why do you think alive EMS Madara's reaction speed is higher than that of KCM Naruto? Because he has better feats


. 

it being higher is your opinion though. having EMS would sort of help and would be easy to assume even if he had no feats at all. 



> So, unless you give me a proof that base teenager Naruto has a reaction speed comparable to that of KCM Naruto, he doesnt have such a fast reaction speed. Because there is no proof of that in manga, or Databook.



then give me proof of KCM increasing reactions. where is it mentioned and why wont it be. kishi mentions everything else. he did so for SM why not say anyting about KCM?




> That is not important. And he couldnt do anythink against Hebi Sasuke. He was cut against MS Sasuke. His general performances are not even close to those of KCM Naruto's.




see above





> It is not important to mention his reactions, when it is obvious KCM improves reaction speed due to KCM naruto's performances.



which no other version of SM Naruto had. so erm btw that makes KCM reactions>>>SM Naruto reactions. since SM got zero feats of reacting to V2 A. 

so then you must agree. 

Even though after that Naruto says SM gives him better reactions. 

So which gives better reactions KCM or SM




> There is no proof that he can react to them.



see above




> Can he dodge Amaterasu, or cant - it is debatable. But the difference is - Minato has lots of reaction speed feats. Base Naruto lacks reaction speed feats.



why would it. a slower person did




> Judging from Raikage Ei's performace against adult Bee, thicker Raiton and Tailed Beast level chakra - i'd say Adult Ei got faster than his young teenager counterpart.



relying on panel squitting. I hope u know kishi doesn't always draw the shroud everytime as thick just saying 

odd A got faster yet didn't care to mention that. wont he have been even more impressed with Naruto If he got faster?

Bee as well couldn't have mentioned it. why didn't he, we had 2 people who could have said he got faster

why even admit being the second fastest only because minato is dead if he got that much faster that it would have made a difference in his performance against minato?


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## StarWanderer (Jul 22, 2015)

> it being higher is your opinion though. having EMS would sort of help and would be easy to assume even if he had no feats at all.



It's a manga fact his reaction speed is greater. I am judging from feats. But i agree about EMS.



> then give me proof of KCM increasing reactions. where is it mentioned and why wont it be. kishi mentions everything else. he did so for SM why not say anyting about KCM?



It isnt mentioned that KCM improves reactions. There is also no mentiones that KCM user's reaction speed stays the same. 

If there is no mentions, we judge from performances. Base Naruto couldnt react to Hebi Sasuke's Shunshin and could barely react to exhausted MS Sasuke's swing. That's how good his reaction speed is. Those are his best performances, as i remember. Of course, you can say that his physical speed wasnt enough to react, but reaction speed was good enough. But that would be an assumption, since you wont be able to give me a proof of that. 

KCM Naruto's performances are on a completely different level. So, of course, KCM improves reactions. 



> see above



The same - see above.



> which no other version of SM Naruto had. so erm btw that makes KCM reactions>>>SM Naruto reactions. since SM got zero feats of reacting to V2 A.
> 
> so then you must agree.
> 
> ...



SM Naruto did way better than KCM Naruto in a close distance with a Raikage level speedster. And it is mentioned in manga that SM gives better reactions. 

No mentiones about KCM not increasing reaction speed. So again - we judge from performances when there is no mentiones in manga.



> see above



The same - see above.



> why would it. a slower person did



It is also debatable if adult Raikage Ei is slower than base Minato.



> relying on panel squitting. I hope u know kishi doesn't always draw the shroud everytime as thick just saying
> 
> odd A got faster yet didn't care to mention that. wont he have been even more impressed with Naruto If he got faster?
> 
> ...



Why should they mention that, by the way?

Those words meaned that if Minato was still alive, he would have been faster. That's it. Minato would train during those 17 years, just as Ei did.


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

adult raikage A is slower than minato based on the author interpretation 
through the statement A made and in the bloody databooks which are still part of canon materials as it wasnt written by trolling fans 
i hope you get that

A could never be faster than minato since minato is bloody teleporting. its that simple and completely idiot proof 

whatever A can avoid, or how ever fast he goes minato can always do better. its that simple

why should kishi mention an increase in speed? he did so for onoki, who apparently got faster in war arc compared to his prime. Why did kishi mention it then? 

he mentions improvement on the sanin, kakashi, sasuke, naruto, shikamaru even. So why on earth wont he mention an improvement on A if it was significant enough to matter

am not sayign he stayed the exact same am saying his improvement was insignificant to his standing as a ninja

sameway having more chakra wouldnt suddenly improve your amaterasu speed or ability to kill

btw a feat that burns u which u fail to acknowledge if we are to go strictly on panel squitting 

lee can throw a kunai faster than 8th gate gai. and minato can use hirashin twice before gai moves an inch

sorry but that panel is as valid as the panel with bee growing a magic tentacle. cant have one without the other. 

sorry to call you up on your BS

note that your reason for invalidating minato last feat where on panel he outsped 8th gate gai has to do with him failing to do squat to juubito or juudara
which happened

however why do u only remember 7th gate gai latest feat against juudara and not the others

how could he pressure juudara, yet with help from hachibi BM Naruto and kakashi, they couldn't even seal ET madara??? what happened there?

how was he so beat up when he can apparently spam 7th gate and pressure juudara?

so if u can only remember gai latest performance against juudara then, minato latest feat when compared to 8th gate gai still puts him well above A and as someone who would very easily avoid 7th gate gai. 



#those times where panel squitting bites you in the ass

btw I can throw a knife faster than usain bolt running at top speed


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

> adult raikage A is slower than minato based on the author interpretation
> through the statement A made and in the bloody databooks which are still part of canon materials as it wasnt written by trolling fans
> i hope you get that



Author said that if Minato was still alive, he would have been faster than Ei. That's all. And the only good statement about Minato was that he was praised by shinobi as the fastest in goodlike speed. There was never an outright statement that Minato was the fastest of all time, or that nobody had reflexes as good as his. He won a fight with Raikage only due to Hiraishin technique. Without Hiraishin, he would have died there.



> A could never be faster than minato since minato is bloody teleporting. its that simple and completely idiot proof



It is debatable if base Minato's brain can react to Raikage Ei's V2 punch.



> why should kishi mention an increase in speed? he did so for onoki, who apparently got faster in war arc compared to his prime. Why did kishi mention it then?
> 
> he mentions improvement on the sanin, kakashi, sasuke, naruto, shikamaru even. So why on earth wont he mention an improvement on A if it was significant enough to matter



He never mentioned that Sasuke got faster from part 1 to his Hebi times. He never mentioned the same for Naruto and others. It is not important to always make a statement about power increase.



> sameway having more chakra wouldnt suddenly improve your amaterasu speed or ability to kill



Ei's Raiton Shunshin is different. It *depends* on how many chakra user has. Raikage Ei was so fast because he could amp his Shunshin with tailed beast level chakra. 



> lee can throw a kunai faster than 8th gate gai. and minato can use hirashin twice before gai moves an inch



Nope. 8 Gate Gai slowed down. I dont wanna waste my time to explain that again, but i want to ask you a quastion - why SM Minato couldnt react to Juubidara, yet base Minato could react to 8 Gate Gai's speed, who is much faster than Juubidara?



> sorry but that panel is as valid as the panel with bee growing a magic tentacle. cant have one without the other.
> 
> sorry to call you up on your BS



There is nothing wrong with Bee's tentacle being faster than Minato's strike. But a situation with 8 Gate Gai is different. Answer my quastion above.



> note that your reason for invalidating minato last feat where on panel he outsped 8th gate gai has to do with him failing to do squat to juubito or juudara
> which happened



SM Minato couldnt react to Juubidara, KCM Minato couldnt react to Juubito, yet base Minato could react to 8 Gate Gai, who is a lot faster than Juubidara and Juubito?



> however why do u only remember 7th gate gai latest feat against juudara and not the others
> 
> how could he pressure juudara, yet with help from hachibi BM Naruto and kakashi, they couldn't even seal ET madara??? what happened there?



There was nothing logically wrong about 7 Gate Gai pressuring Juubidara. We knew before that 7 Gate Gai is very strong and fast. He one-shotted Kisame, one of the most powerful Akatsuki members. 

Well, Edo Madara was too good for them. That's it.



> how was he so beat up when he can apparently spam 7th gate and pressure juudara?



Can you show me Gai using 7 Gate speed against Edo Madara? He only used Hirudora on him, after getting a beating. He fought for a long time and was tired a little bit at that moment. Plus, it is not in his character to use 7 Gate from the start on anyone.



> so if u can only remember gai latest performance against juudara then, minato latest feat when compared to 8th gate gai still puts him well above A and as someone who would very easily avoid 7th gate gai.



Yet *amped* Minato was blitzed by Juubidara, who couldnt blitz 7 Gate Gai and was pressurred by him. 8 Gate gai slowed down at that moment so that feat is not a very big deal, realy.


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Lol scans of the still alive bit or just shut up

 he mentioned sasuke improvement in his first pre Hebi apperance and also mentions it in the DB 

Same for naruto who improved clone timing and got a bigger rasengan 

Same with Sakura their improvements were blatantly mentioned 

So yes every single noteworthy improvement in the manga ever is horribly obviously stated for the reader to know

Why could 7th gate Gai pressure juudara in your crazy mind but couldn't neg diff ET madara despite going 7th gate . I mean why not just 1 panel him and call it a day ?

A feat is a feat suck on it . Gai didn't slow down no evidence of that bar saltiness 

I can say juudara slowed down intentionally to allow 7th gate Gai to fight with him . No proof of that right well there you go 
You in the same boat


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Ps: Gai would have started immediately in 7th gate against ET madara considering he knows madara just beat the 5 Kage in a 1 vs 5 battle 

So unless u think he thinks so highly of himself that at less than 7th gate he is even remotely comparable makes sense to believe he engaged ET madara with 7th gate 

Also he couldn't have powered to 7th gate and used Hirudora in the time it takes madara to swing 

Unless u believe in base hirudora  

Ah the double standards you come up with


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## Ghost (Jul 25, 2015)

JJ Madara obviously.


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

odd anime didn't depict it any different
8th gate gai wasn't shown slowing down at all

if anything minato even screams keep moving forward no matter what

so yh  minato got reactions to use hirashin twice before 8th gate gai can move

invalidating that feat is the same as ignoring gai going up against juudara simply because a holding back ET madara had no issues with 7 gate gai

as to the thread strongest he can beat with these restrictions: Muu maybe

ps: minato getting countered by juudara is perfectly normal. he only used the first level of hirashin after all. and where he would appear was obvious based on the circumstance. he had to get between juudara and obito. 


lets also not forget there is a second level and a 3rd level to it. (rasengan flash dance)

6 kunai around juudara+ a clone  is significantly harder to counter than only using 1 kunai.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

> Lol scans of the still alive bit or just shut up



You havent provided any scan - i wont provide either. 



> he mentioned sasuke improvement in his first pre Hebi apperance and also mentions it in the DB



Shunshin improvement? Also, i'd like to act the way you are acting - scan please?

Anyway, there are tons of other examples. What about Kiba? What about Shikamaru? What about Part 1 Kakashi and Shippuden Kakashi? What about Gaara? Many, many examples. 



> So yes every single noteworthy improvement in the manga ever is horribly obviously stated for the reader to know



Not every. 



> Why could 7th gate Gai pressure juudara in your crazy mind but couldn't neg diff ET madara despite going 7th gate



There is no proof he used 7th Gate against ET Madara in the same way he used it against Juubidara. ET Madara jumped and *base* Gai jumped after him. He could think he has a chance against ET Madara in his base form due to his taijutsu, but failed. He only used Hirudora against him, after he got beaten. 



> A feat is a feat suck on it . Gai didn't slow down no evidence of that bar saltiness



Lots of evidences of that, lots of them. I provided them more than once.



> I can say juudara slowed down intentionally to allow 7th gate Gai to fight with him



For what reason?



> You in the same boat



No indications of him slowing down and no reason for him slowing down. Bad example. Try harder, Icegaze.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

> Gai would have started immediately in 7th gate against ET madara considering he knows madara just beat the 5 Kage in a 1 vs 5 battle



The funny fact is - he havent used 7 Gate right off the bat. It is obvious in the manga.



> So unless u think he thinks so highly of himself that at less than 7th gate he is even remotely comparable makes sense to believe he engaged ET madara with 7th gate



He havent used 7 Gate right off the bat there.



> Also he couldn't have powered to 7th gate and used Hirudora in the time it takes madara to swing



Oh realy? Why not?



> Unless u believe in base hirudora
> 
> Ah the double standards you come up with



Not realy.



> odd anime didn't depict it any different
> 8th gate gai wasn't shown slowing down at all
> 
> if anything minato even screams keep moving forward no matter what
> ...



Forward, not with his full speed, but *forward*. And anime is not canon.

SM Minato didnt have reactions to react to Juubidara's blitz, yet base Minato has reactions to react to 8 Gate Gai's full speed? Wat? Do you understand that SM Minato didnt have reaction speed to use Hiraishin levels before Juubidara can cut his hand off?


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## Uzzui (Jul 25, 2015)

Manages to beat both Kisame and Minato but gets rekt'd by Nagato and Pain


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