# Ned Stark vs. Ser Garlan Tyrell



## Lord Stark (Mar 4, 2015)

Who takes this?  New information:
"He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect."

So Ser Arthur and Ned Stark did indeed fight in single combat.  Discuss.

Include Show Feats


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## Reddan (Mar 4, 2015)

Lord Stark said:


> Who takes this?  New information:
> "He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect."
> 
> So Ser Arthur and Ned Stark did indeed fight in single combat.  Discuss.



Garlan beats Ned 9/10. Ned's an average swordsman that defeated Dayne because Howland Reed did something, which changed the outcome of the battle. Garlan is one of the best in the world and even better than Loras. He regularly duels against 3 men in practice. Ned's only saving grace is Ice.


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## Aduro (Mar 4, 2015)

I don't think the books showed Eddard as more than an adequate swordsman, and besides the quote you have comes with the qualifier "was said to", which might mean that he was tired from fighting one of Eddard's seven already or that someone else might have intervened. In fact it was implied in Clash of Kings that Eddard would have lost without Howland Reed's interference. I think the quote proves more about the way Crannogmen are woefully underestimated than Eddard's skill at arms.

On the other hand we have more concrete proof than Garlan trains against several guys at a time and the talented Loras who held his own against Brienne and wrecked all kinds of shit on dragonstone with a mace admits Garlan was stronger than him. Not to mention he took down several famout knights when he was cosplaying Renly. I would give my vote to Garlan here.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 4, 2015)

Garlan Tyrell spars with 4 knights at once and is better than Loras Tyrell who while famous for his jousting is still a prodigy swordsman. Ned having Ice won't help much. Ned and Rodrik got beaten down by Royce in 2 vs 1 while sparring.

Ned is'nt famous for swordsmanship, he's famous for his leadership and military strategy(he's only lacking in ruthlessness to be more dangerous here).


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## Jagger (Mar 4, 2015)

Ned was a man that never took joy in fighting or taking jousts, so it's not surprising for him for not be that skilled. He was the brains along with Jon Arryn during Robert's rebellion while Robert himself was the core that joined them all with his charisma and his overwhelming strength.

Ice as a weapon is still very dangerous and should not be underestimated. However, in single combat, it seems too large to be wielded fast enough with an opponent who is said to be better than the prodigy Loras Tyrell is, the same young guy Jaime Lannister praised.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 4, 2015)

rofl 

rofl

garlan tyrell slaughters him


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## Lord Stark (Mar 5, 2015)

Reddan said:


> Garlan beats Ned 9/10. Ned's an average swordsman that defeated Dayne because Howland Reed did something, which changed the outcome of the battle. Garlan is one of the best in the world and even better than Loras. He regularly duels against 3 men in practice. Ned's only saving grace is Ice.



Ned's pretty humble.  Also TWOIAF specifically says Lord Eddard killed him in _single_ combat.


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## Gone (Mar 5, 2015)

Oh look, another thread where someone thinks Ned can be somehow scaled off Arthur Dayne... 

Word of god is that Ned isn't an exceptional warrior, only a commander and leader. Garlan rips him apart.



Lord Stark said:


> Ned's pretty humble.  Also TWOIAF specifically says Lord Eddard killed him in _single_ combat.



TWoIaF also says that the Others were just a tribe of normal wildlings. And it specifically says that Ned was "said to" have defeated him in single combat, but we know from Ned's own POV that Dayne would have killed _him_ had it not been for Howland Reed.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 5, 2015)

> Ned's pretty humble. Also TWOIAF specifically says Lord Eddard killed him in single combat.



An in universe source by the likes of Maester Yandel that is for the Baratheon/Lannister regime and meant for someone like Tommen to read. No one but Ned knows what happened at the Tower of Joy, Ned himself owes Howland Reed, a guy whose potentially magic(hell Jojen has green dreams and sent Bran out of Summer with a touch). 

Arthur Dayne is in the top 5-10 greatest fighters in Westeros history and wields a sword that is clearly as good as valyrian steel atleast so Ned with Ice is'nt matching up. Ned came outnumbering 3 Kingsguard and he lost most of his men.

Ned and Rodrik together got beaten down by Royce in a sparring match, rofl at Ned being near Dayne in skill or Garlan.

The common rumor in universe is that Ned killed Dayne and impregnated Ashara Dayne, it's a rumor. 



> TWoIaF also says that the Others were just a tribe of normal wildlings



Being fair they do reference some of the heresay and rumors on the magical stuff but generally yeah, Maesters being anti magic tend to go for the more scientific approach,  they speculate that the Starks and Night Watch bastardised them to look more heroic.

We know they are wrong. WOIAF has some great info but some of it should be taken with a grain of salt as you said.


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## Metaphor (Mar 5, 2015)

It's very well established that Dayne would have killed Ned "but for Howland Reed."  GRRM has also stated that Garlan is top 5.  

Ned gets stomped here.


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## Aduro (Mar 5, 2015)

Did this just get re-opened? I though everyone but the OP thought Ned was dead.


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## Jagger (Mar 6, 2015)

TWOIAF also says Joffrey and Tommen are Robert's legitime heirs, so no, not everything is accurate.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 6, 2015)

Aduro said:


> Did this just get re-opened? I though everyone but the OP thought Ned was dead.



Nah even I think Ned is dead.  I just think he wouldn't get godstomped like everyone is saying.  Especially not with show feats


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 6, 2015)

Show feat?You mean his fight with Jamie Lannister whose arrogant?He had a Valyrian steel sword which is a +1 weapon and Jamie seemed more caught off guard by show Ned(if show Ned is above the average swordsman and Show Jamie thought Ned was average this is possible). Show Jamie is not book Jamie in feats either.

Jamie Lannister while having his limbs shackled, tortured, covered in urine and shit for months and rusting away for 6 months in a dungeon gave Brienne a fight before losing. Jame has briefly dueled the Smiling Knight who could fight Arthur Dayne, he was entering Tourneys like crazy(so much that he tells one of the Kettlebacks he knows every major person to enter a tourney), one of the Frey recollects him making a name for himself even as a squire, he trained under Arthur Dayne, is stated by word of god as one of the best swordsman in history and is grouped by GRRM with the likes of Sandor, Gregor, Selmy and others as the elite of the swordsman. GRRM even allows for people like Loras and Garlan in that list but no Ned.

Ned is a better commander than Jamie although Jamie shows in AFFC he's not bad himself but he is not in the same ballpark as Jamie or any of the elite swordsman. Jamie was a super prodigy swordsman with decades of combat experience.

Seriously OP, you've a history of expecting Ned as some superb swordsman. The fact you got so excited at an in universe source with some bias towards Baratheons(offcourse Robert's best friend and potential father in law to Joff is going to be made to look good here) going off info only Ned or Howland could prove wrong otherwise when cet source even acknowledges it's basing the info on rumor/heresay is telling. Then you try to rig this more in favor of Ned with the show filler.

Ned is not a superb fighter, is not hyped or shown as such nor does GRRM ever bother mentioning him anywhere amongst the elite in interviews and such. Why try to make him something he's not?

Brandon and Benjen seemed like better fighters, especially Brandon who was more into fighting people and entering tourneys, he was the jock of the Stark children. Benjen rose to First Ranger in the NW and seemed highly respected there. Hell even Lyanna is arguably better fighter going off the Knight of Laughing Tree Story.

Even if Ned is better than Benjen or Lyanna, it's made clear he's the the warrior of the Stark kids, that was Brandon. 

-He had 3 elite Kingsguard outnumbered with 7 men, Arthur Dayne still almost got him if not for Howland Reed.

-Royce beatdown Ned and Rodrik in sparring matches with ease going off Sansa's memories in her Alayne chapters.

Ned could still earn a reputation as an elite fighter in RR despite not fighting much in Tourneys. The Blackfish in the War of Ninepenny Kings earned such a reputation to a point Jamie is in awe at the thought of a Prime Brynden vs Prime Jamie fight.

The only thing Ned has is rumor based on only him and Howland coming back as witnesses of events at TOJ, him returning to Starfall with Dawn and the rumors of a Stark/Ashara tryst, Ashara's "suicide" and Ned coming back with a bastard. People let their imagination run wild and came up with some romantic/tragic scenario of Ned slaying Dayne, impregnating Ashara when he returned the blade and her committing suicide out of possible depression. 

I like Ned Stark but unless GRRM suddenly mentions some good combat feat of his in RR in some later material, he's "only" a general/commander.

There is a world of difference between Garlan and Ned.


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## Gone (Mar 6, 2015)

Show feats are absurdly inconsistent with the books, and kind of stupid at times. Shirtless Ramsay vs the Ironborn, the Hound grabbing Oathkeeper bare handed, etc.


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## Metaphor (Mar 6, 2015)

Jagger said:


> TWOIAF also says Joffrey and Tommen are Robert's legitime heirs, so no, not everything is accurate.



But that's right.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 6, 2015)

Ryjacork said:


> Show feats are absurdly inconsistent with the books, and kind of stupid at times. Shirtless Ramsay vs the Ironborn, the Hound grabbing Oathkeeper bare handed, etc.



Brienne vs Hound was a cool fight, very brutal and in your face even if she should'nt have lasted so long but then Sandor was'nt healed from a festering injury, drunk and living on the road a lot.


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## Gone (Mar 6, 2015)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Brienne vs Hound was a cool fight, very brutal and in your face even if she should'nt have lasted so long but then Sandor was'nt healed from a festering injury, drunk and living on the road a lot.



Oh don't get me wrong, it was a good fight, but the way Valyrian steel is depicted in the books he should have lost his fingers trying to grab the blade like that.


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## Rivers (Mar 6, 2015)

I dont think it would be unreasonable to consider Ned Stark a solid, above average fighter though.

Ser Arthur Dayne was the deadliest of the Kingsguard wasn't he? Not to mention he had 2 other Legendary Kingsguard at his side. If Ned was nothing but an average swordsman, a x2.3 numbers advantage means shit all really. 

It's stated Ser Garlan Tyrell trains against 3 swordsmen at once. In the TOJ battle, statistically the Kingsguard wouldn't even be fighting THAT much each. Ser Barristan at the Trident wouldn't have been dropped after just killing 2-3 fighters; and Robert Baratheon killed 5 knights and a champion knight (former squire to Rhaegar), with just a sword while suffering injuries during the Battle of the Bells.

Comparing to Selmy/Robert-level fighters and feats. You need a lot more than 7 average-level swordsman to kill 3 legendary Kingsguard head on...especially one with a Valyrian quality 2-handed sword.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 6, 2015)

3 elite Kingsguard vs 7 men. Howland Reed needs to be factored here when his magical powers are implied and it's made clear Dayne would have killed Ned if not for Howland, we do not know the skill level of the guys with Ned either. Sure Ned could be above average being generous but then the guys you mention eat those for breakfast.

Let's take a super elite like Selmy:
- A 60 year old Selmy took down a trained mercenary with a stick. He stormed Duskindale back in the day to save Aerys, killed dozens on the Trident while taking wounds, slayed Maelys the monstrous(who snapped the previous Golden Company leader like a twig), won multiple tourneys beating off guys 20-30 years younger, fought in War of Ninepenny Kings etc. He was entering Tourneys since age 10 arguably(he entered atleast once at that age)

Or another super elite:
- Jamie's feat against Brienne is mentioned despite how much nerfed he was and she's a good fighter with physical strength to boot, she is horrified at what Prime Jamie could have done to her had he been at pre capture levels. He's entered multiple tourneys, earned a reputation so great that even Ironborn like Victarion want to fight him and was doing prodigical stuff as a teenager while squiring.

Arthur Dayne in his prime is at Selmy Prime levels as per word of god, has his own sword Dawn which is made from some shooting star. Jamie outright says Dayne could single handedly destroy Tommen's kingsguard while "one handed and taking a piss" sure there is some hyperbole here but you get the point. I don't think Ned can take on a Kingsguard with Loras, some Kettlebacks(they still have some mercenary experience) and some other KGs at once but Dayne clearly can as per Jamie to show how much the standard of KG has fallen as combatants. 

How is Ned Stark even with Ice going to register to a guy whose in the top 5 best swordsman in 300 years when there are multiple other guys above Ned who have more distinguised feats and hype?Ned admits Dayne was the best knight he ever knew and that the Kingsguard were once of a higher standard as warriors and men. 

An above average swordsman would get murdered by Dayne as if they were a child. Sure GRRM's world means it's not always 10/10 due to things like terrain, mistakes, fatigue, cheap shots etc but we know someone like Jamie is beating Rodrik 99% of the time.

If Ned and Rodrik got beaten down in a sparring session by a guy not in the top 10 or 20 then by himself Ned is going to get slaughtered average or above average.

Is Ned possible above average?Sure, he's got training since childhood like all nobles and keeps in shape sparring plus fought in Robert Rebellion in multiple battles. 

He'd not register to any exceptional swordsman though.

I mean not saying Ned can't be above average but when Garlan spars with like 3 or 4 knights at once, something Ned clearly is'nt capable of and Garlan has no valyrian steel, it's safe to say the guy whose better than an elite Loras is going to murder Ned many times than not.

As for Robert, despite him being out of shape and older plus drunk on Cersei's vine he still took down a boar at the cost of his own life. This is Robert at a shadow of his prime further under the influence doing that. Robert had a tendency to crush fighters in melee going off Cersei's recollections of the guy in tourneys, if that's what he did to average or above average guys?Yeah...


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## Rivers (Mar 6, 2015)

^ Wouldn't that mean Ned has to be *ATLEAST* an above average swordsman? You pretty much pointed out you *can't be average *and survive a battle to the death against 3 Legendary Kingsguard. 

Howland Reed using magics? Possibly, but then it would have to be some uber combat magics to pick up the slack of poor average-swordsman Ned Stark. It's either super strong Warg magics (which ones even?), or adept swordsman Ned with Ice, in his prime, fighting for his life, and losing with Howland Reed's [insert interference], barely saving his life.

Also, Id say young, in the middle of war, battle-hardened Ned Stark, fighting for his sister's life - is definitely putting a hell of a lot more effort than him sparring in his castle. Why is Ned's benchmark in a fight-to-the-death limited to the effort he puts in a sparring match?

Ned Stark @ TOJ, yeah he would definitely have to be *above average to say the least. *Otherwise he would be cut open before even one of the Kingsguard gets scratched...

Of course, Im not saying Ned is on or near the level of Ser Arthur Dayne, or that he is even beating Ser Garlan Tyrell. But the idea that Ned HAS to BE just an average fighter - doesnt sit well with me. Where's his fighting praise? Where is his fighting feats you ask? Well...prying Dawn off the dead hands of The Sword of the Morning, sort of implies he's AT LEAST an above average swordsman (how can he be conceivably average?). Otherwise, you'd have to be fine with Howland's Wildfire-level magics saving Ned Stark's completely average-level fighting arse.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 6, 2015)

Because he had 6 other guys of unknown ability and one of whom has weird crannogman magic(Jojen could eject Bran from Summer by touching him and has green dreams, Howland's castle is impossible to find possibly due to some magic, Howland may have gone to the Isle of Green Men, his Earth magic/Green magic is a wildcard). Right now the gist of it is that Ned almost died if not for Howland, we don't know the extent of Ned's participation in the 2:1 odds and the combat ability of those by his side. Plus Ice is an edge in a fight, Dayne the dude with his own +1 sword almost got him. Nothing there favors Ned but depending on the info released on TOJ later on this could change.

I bring up Ned getting a hilarious beating to show how shit he is compared to a guy who should be above average himself but not some exceptional elite badass when even with help from Rodrik he gets owned in a fight. You want to go with Ned putting more effort in a serious fight?We could sat Royce could more effort in a fight too. I mean going off comparisons in sparring:

Ned(no Ice)+Rodrik vs Royce= beatdown by Royce
Garlan vs 3-4 knights= Garlan equal or superior in performance

Ned Stark would not last more than a few seconds against any elite, Ice or not. This would happen whether he's average or above. There is simply too huge a gap between him and some super elite like Dayne.

No one is saying Ned can't possibly be above average but the reasoning is horrible. Being fair to you the 7 vs 3 fight details are unknown so it does work both ways, his only other instance in combat has him getting beaten down and nothing in universe or out universe hypes him as some skilled swordsman who can hang with elite even for a while, that would be skill worth mentioning.

Dayne is multiple tiers beyond Ned, he is in the top 5 best over 300 years of Westeros' history. There is no shame in saying he's slaughter Ned in seconds with ease.

The basis for Ned being above average could be
-Decades worth of training and sparring
-Fighting in Robert's Rebellion in multiple battless

Giving him Ice especially would help in getting above average but that's it. If we're going off hypothetical tiers then while someone like Dayne is tier 1, Ned is like tier 5 or less.


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## Metaphor (Mar 6, 2015)

Rivers said:


> ^ Wouldn't that mean Ned has to be *ATLEAST* an above average swordsman? You pretty much pointed out you *can't be average *and survive a battle to the death against 3 Legendary Kingsguard.
> 
> Howland Reed using magics? Possibly, but then it would have to be some uber combat magics to pick up the slack of poor average-swordsman Ned Stark. It's either super strong Warg magics (which ones even?), or adept swordsman Ned with Ice, in his prime, fighting for his life, and losing with Howland Reed's [insert interference], barely saving his life.
> 
> ...



Considering Ned was of noble birth and trained with a master-at-arms, he probably was an above average swordsman, but probably not much better than any other knight.  He's definitely eclipsed by all the noteworthy swordsmen in the series.


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## Rivers (Mar 6, 2015)

> Ned+Rodrik vs Royce= beatdown by Royce
> Garlan vs 3-4 knights= Garlan equal or superior in performance



Did Royce beat Ned+Rodrick or was it one after the other? 



> *Ned Stark would not last more than a few seconds against any elite, Ice or not. *This would happen whether he's average or above. There is simply too huge a gap between him and some super elite like Dayne.



Well one could come to think that of Ned...except GRRM wrote in the events that Ned did actually last more than a few seconds.



> No one is saying Ned can't possibly be above average but the reasoning is horrible. Being fair to you the 7 vs 3 fight details are unknown so it does work both ways, his only other instance in combat has him getting beaten down and nothing in universe or out universe hypes him as some skilled swordsman who can hang with elite even for a while, that would be skill worth mentioning.



Personally, I don't think you actually need specific praise to think in all likelihood that so and so was an above average fighter (being in the middle of wars, castle training etc. lends itself to that). Robert got his fighting rep by dropping high-tier fighters. Being a champion Knight puts you beyond, "above-average" (i.e. high-tier range). Yet for some, their most notable feat was getting killed or defeated by Robert Baratheon in single combat.  

I dont think you need much more than the TOJ to consider Ned to be *above average.* Barely surviving in a skirmish between 3 Legendary Kingsguard _speaks for itself_.  Again, without specifics that doesnt put him into Jaime / Robert tier by any stretch, but considering him to be above average tier is fine. As you said, above-average isn't anything super special in the ASOFAI verse anyway. So Im willing to give Ned at least that much. Since, while Howland Reed was certainly vital in that TOJ outcome, I'm not going to put all the eggs in that Warg basket. 



> The basis for Ned being above average could be
> -Decades worth of training and sparring
> -Fighting in Robert's Rebellion in multiple battless



The fact that he squired alongside Robert Baratheon could lend his skills to be above average as well. Ned was basically spending his adolescent days and training with a top-level fighter in the same courtyard for years.



Metaphor said:


> Considering Ned was of noble birth and trained with a master-at-arms, he probably was an above average swordsman, but probably not much better than any other knight.  He's definitely eclipsed by all the noteworthy swordsmen in the series.



*Would you say Ned Stark @ TOJ was below the level of Jon Snow?*

Anyways, my main point is that: Yeah, considering he is not only a noble, but in the family to the Warden of the North, squired alongside Robert Baratheon, entered heavy battles at the age of 18/19, and has a Valyrian weapon...claiming Ned as an average opponent in battle undersells him.


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## Jagger (Mar 6, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Anyways, my main point is that: Yeah, considering he is not only a noble, but in the family to the Warden of the North, squired alongside Robert Baratheon, entered heavy battles at the age of 18/19, and has a Valyrian weapon...claiming Ned as an average opponent in battle undersells him.


Average compared to the likes of Jaime Lannister, Garlan, Arthur Dayne, etc. Ned wasn't supposed to be portrayed as a man that lived by the sword like those mentioned above, his speciality came as a battle commander and a strategist.

But I agree with you, I believe he's above average, but not top tier.  Also, some highborn individuals aren't necessarily superior than the rest because they were born with better opportunities, sometimes it's just pure talent, not to mention Ned did not enjoy battle.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 7, 2015)

> Did Royce beat Ned+Rodrick or was it one after the other?





> Originally posted by *A Feast of Crows*
> Last of all came the Royces, Lord Nestor and Bronze Yohn. The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound. Though his hair was grey and his face lined, Lord Yohn still looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands. His seamed and solemn face brought back all of Sansa’s memories of his time at Winterfell. She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. *She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well*



He not only destroys Ned but turns to parry and defeat Rodrik too. You could I suppose say "turning" mean one after the other.

vs


> Originally posted by *A Storm of Swords*
> *On the edge of the yard, a lone knight with a pair of golden roses on his shield was holding off three foes. Even as they watched, he caught one of them alongside the head, knocking him senseless*. “Is that your brother?” Sansa asked. “It is, my lady,” said Ser Loras. “*Garlan often trains against three men, or even four. In battle it is seldom one against one, he says, so he likes to be prepared*.”
> 
> “He must be very brave.”
> “He is a great knight,” Ser Loras replied. “A better sword than me, in truth, though I’m the better lance.”



Garlan spars with guys who are around Ned level or higher in multiple even beating one of them senseless. Being fair he has a shield but he's trying to emulate a war scenario after all with multiple guys.



> Well one could come to think that of Ned...except GRRM wrote in the events that Ned did actually last more than a few seconds.



No he did not, Ned has a fever dream where the best he recollects is going 7 vs 3, we also know it's mentioned that if not for Howland Ned would have died as per Ned to Bran IIRC. Nothing is mentioned on how long Ned lasted or the full details on that fight. There is nothing there to support your claim, there is more than says the opposite than not. When it's 2:1 it's possible for 2 vs 1 type scenarios, depending on the skill of the people with Ned, this is a major factor plus cheap shots are possible in such a scenario.

If you want to drop this part of the argument due to not enough evidence that would be fine but it's not helping you with what little we know.



> But I agree with you, I believe he's above average, but not top tier. Also, some highborn individuals aren't necessarily superior than the rest because they were born with better opportunities, sometimes it's just pure talent, not to mention Ned did not enjoy battle.



Basically this as Jagger says here. While Ned being above average is'nt impossible it needs to point out he's not upper mid tier let alone top tier. He's closer to low tier with guys like Kettlebacks who are mercenaries with combat experience and professional killers but garbage to anyone worth a damn as a swordsmaster.

To elaborate on Jagger's point that lots of training not necessarily making one good. Mace Tyrell is a noble who no doubt like other nobles grows up trained to fight and he's been in battles too but he sucks as a commander and fighter. Randyll Tarly whose an elite commander and war veteran that wields his own valryian sword is'nt praised as some elite fighter or close.

Jaehaerys I was trained for decades as a fighter too on Dragonstone and later Red Keep but he is at best a "decent warrior". Jaehaerys was around when Aegon I was his grandpa(hell Aegon I and Visneya I were great warriors of their time so being around them is a blessing for combat knowledge), through the reign of Aenys(short as it was), Maegor and then his own rule for a decade or so. Yet he's "decent". 

You can train for 20 years and do decent fighting but still suck or be average. It is a matter of talent sometimes. 

I agree Ned could be above average but he's fodder to Dayne or Garlan. Whether he's lasting 5 seconds or 10 or 15 or 30 seconds he's getting slaughtered, average or above average barely matters to a super elite.

At this point it's more about whether Ned can last longer than X seconds on whether he's average or not, since none of us disagree on the outcome. Thread seems done, it's not like I'm disagreeing with you Rivers on Ned being above average as a possibility.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 7, 2015)

> He's closer to low tier with guys like Kettlebacks who are mercenaries with combat experience and professional killers but garbage to anyone worth a damn as a swordsmaster.



i think you're exaggerating the difference between experienced professional swordsmen and "swordsmasters" beyond what exists in asoiaf

it explicitly takes a much more realistic view of the extent to which fighting ability can be increased. it's not like most fantasy where, like, say, in wheel of time, the better blademasters can go 6 v. 1 and do well 

what i'm saying is that people like osmund kettleblack would probably have caused people like prime jaime at least a bit of trouble, they wouldn't have been "garbage" by any means. closer to garbage tier is prolly someone like boros blount

that said, ned is around that sort of "pretty good" level, and garlan tyrell is probably the single best swordsman in westeros, so he will get taken apart


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 7, 2015)

That is a fair argument Lucaniel, ASIOAF is a more realistic type fantasy as you said.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 7, 2015)

The 7 men had horses.

Horses were basically the tanks of the time. It would be extremely difficult to fight 7 horsed men with 3 on foot.

Its actually baffling that there were only 2 of them left, and it speaks to the power of the old Kingsguard.


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## Jagger (Mar 7, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> that said, ned is around that sort of "pretty good" level, and garlan tyrell is probably the single best swordsman in westeros, so he will get taken apart


I disagree with that, mate.


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## Gone (Mar 7, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> that said, ned is around that sort of "pretty good" level, and *garlan tyrell is probably the single best swordsman in westeros*, so he will get taken apart



Only if Syrio Forel is dead...



Alucardemi said:


> The 7 men had horses.
> 
> Horses were basically the tanks of the time. It would be extremely difficult to fight 7 horsed men with 3 on foot.
> 
> Its actually baffling that there were only 2 of them left, and it speaks to the power of the old Kingsguard.



I really doubt the battle happened that way.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 7, 2015)

Honestly, I can only assume they got there by horse considering the Tower of Joy's isolated location, and I also can only assume that they didn't dismount and put themselves at a disastrous disadvantage against the Kingsguard.

Although, I admit, there is no mention of horses in Ned's fever dream.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 7, 2015)

Syrio was a faceless man, it is known!

But jokes aside, he does have a good feat against an armored foe with a wooden stick and having to face multiple other opponents, he loses/dies but does well considering the circumstances.


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## Gone (Mar 7, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Honestly, I can only assume they got there by horse considering the Tower of Joy's isolated location, and I also can only assume that they didn't dismount and put themselves at a disastrous disadvantage against the Kingsguard.
> 
> Although, I admit, there is no mention of horses in Ned's fever dream.



If you're using the word "assume" twice in the explanation of a statement, then that statement probably shouldn't have been made as the presentation of a fact. Seven mounted warriors would have absolutely demolished the three Kingsguard if they were on foot.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 7, 2015)

Yeah, my statement was misleading in its tone, that's certainly true.

But the circumstances do tell me its reasonable to expect them to have been horsed.



That shit's a decent distance deep in the mountain passes, from any nearby town. There's no way they didn't have horses in the journey there.

As for what should have happened, honestly, isn't that the whole problem of the thread being resolved? Alot of people ask why and how a bunch of average combatants were able to take-out the best of the best -- and the advantage of horsemanship is the best answer I can think of.

What you're saying makes sense, its indeed baffling that if they were 7 riders, there were too many casualties -- but that also depends alot on how skilled a rider each one was. If they weren't skilled in horse combat, the result can be somewhat explained away.

I'll be clearer in saying that I'm speculating this time, but I find this to be the most reasonable explanation.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 7, 2015)

> Originally posted by *Game of Thrones*
> *In the dream his friends rode with him*, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; *Lord Dustin on his great red stallion*. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths *on horses* made of mist.



Not saying they fought on horseback or not. Could have dismounted.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 7, 2015)

Yeah, unfortunately, the encounter with the Kingsguard itself does not mention the horses made of mist. That would've made it easier.

Thanks, though, I had forgotten that exerpt.


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## Gone (Mar 7, 2015)

It makes sense that they rode there, but it would surprise me if they were mounted and the kingdguard were on foot during the battle. I suspect Ned and his merry men dismounted. If they fought 7v3 with the 7 mounted, then the kingsguard are a lot more impressive than I think anyone gives them credit for.


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## Rivers (Mar 7, 2015)

Which is the likely scenario then:
1. 7 horsemen againt 3 Legendary Kingsguard on foot?
2. 7 swordsman on foot against 3 Legendary Kingsguard on foot?

Apparently in an on foot match people here agree that Ned Stark even with Ice isnt lasting more than 20 seconds tops (and his six other friends have even less fighting praise than him, especially without valyrian weapons of their own), so with that thinking...the question is how did every Kingsguard member NOT demolish Ned's company without any of the Kingsguard dying?


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## Lucaniel (Mar 7, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Which is the likely scenario then:
> 1. 7 horsemen againt 3 Legendary Kingsguard on foot?
> 2. 7 swordsman on foot against 3 Legendary Kingsguard on foot?
> 
> Apparently in an on foot match people here agree that Ned Stark even with Ice isnt lasting more than 20 seconds tops (and his six other friends have even less fighting praise than him, especially without valyrian weapons of their own), so with that thinking...the question is how did every Kingsguard member NOT demolish Ned's company without any of the Kingsguard dying?



i think he could last like, 30 seconds

also rather than saying his six friends have less fighting praise than him, which is p disingenuous, say that we don't know anything about how good they were. i've never heard a damn thing about them. so for all you know, most of them were as good as ned, or some were worse and some were better, etc. we do not know a thing

anyways, it was 2 v. 1 for each fight except one, which was 3 v. 1, and as i've said: 



> it explicitly takes a much more realistic view of the extent to which fighting ability can be increased. it's not like most fantasy where, like, say, in wheel of time, the better blademasters can go 6 v. 1 and do well
> 
> what i'm saying is that people like osmund kettleblack would probably have caused people like prime jaime at least a bit of trouble, they wouldn't have been "garbage" by any means. closer to garbage tier is prolly someone like boros blount



2 v. 1, unless the 2 are both worthless (i.e. the fodder syrio slaughtered), tends to make it decisive


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## Rivers (Mar 7, 2015)

Well bringing it to averages...its reasonable to have them placed on what people "think" of Neds level. Honestly they wouldnt be doing outstandingly better than Ned with Ice anyway.

As realistic as ASOFAI is, I already mentioned on the previous page top tiers like Selmy and Robert Baratheon have shown killing more than 3 fighters in one battle is another day of the week for them.

It would be interesting if more people actually ranked Ned Stark with other named fighters from the books so I can see how"good" a fighter they actually think of Ned. As I asked before do people think hes better than Jon Snow during the Tower of Joy?


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## Lucaniel (Mar 7, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Well bringing it to averages...its reasonable to have them placed on what people "think" of Neds level. Honestly they wouldnt be doing outstandingly better than Ned with Ice anyway.
> 
> As realistic as ASOFAI is, I already mentioned on the previous page top tiers like Selmy and Robert Baratheon have shown killing more than 3 fighters in one battle is another day of the week for them.
> 
> It would be interesting if more people actually ranked Ned Stark with other named fighters from the books so I can see how"good" a fighter they actually think of Ned. As I asked before do people think hes better than Jon Snow during the Tower of Joy?



hard to tell 

jon snow's actually considered pretty good, isn't he? pounding the shit out of iron emmett and all 

maybe they're about even because ned didn't make an embarrassment of himself against jaime 

also barristan killed the pitfighters when he was wearing full armour. i don't recall him killing people with non-negligible skill in 3 v. 1 fights without some kind of decisive advantage


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## Gone (Mar 7, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Which is the likely scenario then:
> 1. 7 horsemen againt 3 Legendary Kingsguard on foot?
> 2. 7 swordsman on foot against 3 Legendary Kingsguard on foot?
> 
> Apparently in an on foot match people here agree that Ned Stark even with Ice isnt lasting more than 20 seconds tops (and his six other friends have even less fighting praise than him, especially without valyrian weapons of their own), so with that thinking...the question is *how did every Kingsguard member NOT demolish Ned's company without any of the Kingsguard dying?*



I think scenario 2 is more likely. In scenario 1 they could have just ridden them down.

To answer the bold, the numbers advantage was enough to outweigh the kingsguard's superior skill. The Hound is considered to be a pretty high tier warrior, and look what happened when he fought two nobodies. Granted he was wasted, but he also had help from Arya.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 7, 2015)

> It would be interesting if more people actually ranked Ned Stark with other named fighters from the books so I can see how"good" a fighter they actually think of Ned. As I asked before do people think hes better than Jon Snow during the Tower of Joy?



No, because Jon while inexperienced is implied to be prodigical. He fights Emmett's best men 2 vs 1, that's 2 average or above average guys at once. He generally does even with Emmett who is Eastwatch's best, once when he got more enraged he overpowered him but you could argue he caught Emmett off guard. Despite being feverish and recovering from an arrow wound, he lifted Thorne off the ground till Shadow Tower goons pulled him off(can argue he caught Thorne off guard but this is impressive). In Mel's ADWD he displays some good strength again when he pulls that spear out that other NW were struggling with IIRC. 

He has all the training of Winterfell master at arms, learnt what he could from Thorne and Ser Tarth plus did do some fights with wildings(they have poor equipment and lack discipline to be fair). He was better than Robb in sword but lesser with a lance, not sure where Robb ranks with no experience then(he did fight in the battles taking place in WO5k so hard to say where he improved compared to Jon)He was fighting for most of his later ASOS chapters injured and may not have fulled recovered even upto ADWD/AFFC timeline. 

On the other hand he says Qhorin could crush him like a fly, their fight had Qhorin wanting him to infilitrate wildings and he was controlling the fight till Ghost got involved. His fight with Mance has him losing IIRC although Mance may not have been 100% like Jon either and the glamor may have thrown him off. 

It's hard to rank Jon because he's beaten some unquantifiables and lost to Mance/Qhorin who are to be fair arguably the best warriors North of the Wall. The Wildlings are harder to rank, they don't suck like the Yunkai fighters who can't hit Belwas when he's taking a shit openly but not all of them need be good fighters. It's not clear where he ranks in the NW although the current NW has been reduced to greenhorn fighters with some good ones still left.

So it's possible Jon is better than Ned and he does have a Valryian sword too, Ned is more experienced though and Ice is a huge valryian sword so this is closer than a fight with Dayne or Garlan atleast. Unless his burnt hand gives out on him and he conveniently can't pull out his sword, Jon would win most likely. 

There are plenty of fighters in ASOIAF series I'd rank above both Jon and Ned but that's a different topic itself.

I don't think anyone is saying Ned can't handle himself in a fight, he may be above average but nothing exceptional or prodigical.


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## Gone (Mar 8, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Arthur Dayne could take on Garlan while taking a piss with his right hand.



Well yea so could Aemon the Dragonknight, Cregan Stark, Daemon Blackfyre, prime Selmy, and probably two-handed Jaime and the Mountain too, but I assume he was talking about people still living at this point in the series.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 8, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Arthur Dayne could take on Garlan while taking a piss with his right hand.



No?Dayne would win but not in a stomp. Luc was obviously refering to currently not deceased guys. Although I'd argue Selmy has a shot at beating Garlan too.  Robert Strong beats anybody being a zombiefied Gregor though.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 8, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Arthur Dayne could take on Garlan while taking a piss with his right hand.



>arthur dayne
>ned stark

and

>applying something said to loras by an obviously biased jaime to garlan, who is canonically much better than loras

pls go


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## Rivers (Mar 8, 2015)

Ryjacork said:


> To answer the bold, the numbers advantage was enough to outweigh the kingsguard's superior skill. The Hound is considered to be a pretty high tier warrior, and look what happened when he fought two nobodies. Granted he was wasted, but he also had help from Arya.



Well to clarify, what level of swordsmen do you think was required to take down a fully aware Kingsguard of say the White Bull in 1v2 handicap? Or how about Dayne with his sword Dawn in a 1v2 or a 1v3 handicap?

Average, above average, lower high-tier?


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## Gone (Mar 8, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Well to clarify, what level of swordsmen do you think was required to take down a fully aware Kingsguard of say the White Bull in 1v2 handicap? Or how about Dayne with his sword Dawn in a 1v2 or a 1v3 handicap?
> 
> Average, above average, lower high-tier?



Assuming the side with the number advantage actually came on together, rather than rushing in one at a time to be quickly dispatched ala Victarion, I don't think it would take much. The Hound almost died fighting two chumps. I think a knight of average level skill (for knights, not all swordsmen) would be high enough.

Of course we don't know how the TOJ fight went down. Remember chivalry was a big deal with a lot of these cats. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some 1v1 combat going on.


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## Rivers (Mar 8, 2015)

So a couple of average knights (above average swordsman) could drop an individual Kingsguard together.

Though, in a duel, an average Knight wouldnt last more than say 30 secs at best (ala Dayne vs Stark).


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## Lucaniel (Mar 8, 2015)

Rivers said:


> So a few average knights (above average swordsman) could drop an individual Kingsguard together.
> 
> Though, in a duel at best, an average Knight wouldnt last more than say 30 secs (ala Dayne vs Stark).



numbers matter


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 9, 2015)

Yes, numbers matter as said. Sam and co get lucky when Sam kills an Other because he's lucky enough to have one of his NW brothers get impaled by their sword, giving him the opening to stab it with a VS. Even the Hound while drunk to be fair struggled with some of Vargo/Gregor's men and needed Arya. Brienne with Oath Keeper needed Podrick to help fight off some of Vargo's men too IIRC. Jamie Lannister was captured by some 10 or so men(he took some down I think). 

You can use numbers to distract someone then take openings. Not even factoring team work here.

Anyway I believe GRRM has said Ned is average with a blade and ranked Garlan #5 in Westeros with guys like Jamie, Selmy and Clegane bros as top 5. Loras I think was 6 IIRC.


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## Jagger (Mar 10, 2015)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No?Dayne would win but not in a stomp.


Obvious exaggeration from my part.



> Luc was obviously refering to currently not deceased guys. Although I'd argue Selmy has a shot at beating Garlan too.  Robert Strong beats anybody being a zombiefied Gregor though.





Ryjacork said:


> Well yea so could Aemon the Dragonknight, Cregan Stark, Daemon Blackfyre, prime Selmy, and probably two-handed Jaime and the Mountain too, but I assume he was talking about people still living at this point in the series.


_Oh._ 

I assumed wrong, then.



Lucaniel said:


> >applying something said to loras by an obviously biased jaime to garlan, who is canonically much better than loras
> 
> pls go


In all fairness, Jaime's arrogance knows no boundaries and he's known to give praise to those that deserve it and while it was a clear exaggeration from Jaime's side, there's still truth in it and that is Arthur Dayne is one of the greatest knight ever witnessed in Westeros and I believe he could beat Garlan based on his hype.

But I guessed you assumed those who are alive, so yeah, I'm in the wrong here.


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