# Adult Sasuke vs. The Gokage



## Ersa (Aug 17, 2015)

*Location*: Konoha crater
*Distance*: 20m
*Mindset*: IC, intent to kill.
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Restrictions*: Rinnegan, MS.


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## Ashi (Aug 17, 2015)

Current Gokage wreckt him


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## Altair21 (Aug 17, 2015)

Which Gokage? If it's current then Sauce loses as Naruto's there and he alone is his equal. Well he'd be far superior here considering you restricted his rinnegan and MS. 

If it's the past Gokage then Sauce wins. A meteor busting chidori destroys them and he's far faster than all of them.


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## The Undying (Aug 17, 2015)

This is basically the temporarily weakened version of Sasuke from Gaiden, only now he's even weaker due to Rinnegan being completely restricted. Meteor-buster is adult Sasuke's only super impressive feat without his eye powers; I honestly don't see him winning this.


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## Euraj (Aug 17, 2015)

With this turkey's Chidori popping meteors, who knows?


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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

Naruto trashes him. 

Give Sasuke his full power and all 9 Bijuus, and he still gets trashed.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

Correction- half of a meteorite.

6th Gated Lee & his scrub gated students destroying one half also makes them > Gokage now?

Gaara's sand canonically blocked C3 & stopped a significantly larger meteor (Madara), along with one in the movie. 

Assuming this is War-arc Gokage:

With the speed feats from the latest movie I'd say Sasuke can blitz them all though, so the defense (Gaara) doesn't really make a difference considering they can't even react.


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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

Nah. Gaara and Darui were helping against Momoshiki who is stronger than Sasuke as well.

the other 2 were, alone, taking on Kinkshiki who forced Sasuke to run away.


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## Sumu (Aug 17, 2015)

Past or current Gokage?


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## The Undying (Aug 17, 2015)

Sasuke's speed feat from The Last was probably Amenotejikara, which is essentially his go-to technique for god tier movement. Even if it wasn't, "blitzing" base Guy and base Kakashi doesn't automatically make him faster than someone like V2 Ei and it's not nearly as impressive as certain people want it to be.

If he was that fast, he would've had no issues effortlessly swooping Sarada away from Shin's blades in Gaiden without having to jump in front of them instead, or better yet just blitzing Shin the moment he first engaged him.


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## Kyu (Aug 17, 2015)

Which Gokage is Sauce facing?


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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

I guess the current ones? 

OP is probably only wants to hear/read people saying Gaara will die in the crossfire
or some other shit tho. So, it will probably be the current Kages, just so adult Gaara gets trashed
as well.


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## Tarot (Aug 17, 2015)

Sasuke is definitely not winning with all f these gimps


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 17, 2015)

With these restrictions, sasuke loses with extremely low diff no matter which set of gokage he faces.


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## Sword of the Morning (Aug 17, 2015)

If its the current Gokage Sasuke loses. Chojuro and Kurotsuchi alone took down Kinshiki while Gaara and Darui were fighting on equal footing with Momoshiki. All 4 are too much for anyone....


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## Altair21 (Aug 17, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Sasuke's speed feat from The Last was probably Amenotejikara, which is essentially his go-to technique for god tier movement. Even if it wasn't, "blitzing" base Guy and base Kakashi doesn't automatically make him faster than someone like V2 Ei and it's not nearly as impressive as certain people want it to be.
> 
> If he was that fast, he would've had no issues effortlessly swooping Sarada away from Shin's blades in Gaiden without having to jump in front of them instead, or better yet just blitzing Shin the moment he first engaged him.



1. You have no proof it was Amenotejikara
2. That's not even the speed feat people are talking about. It's the one from Boruto: Naruto the movie where he outpaces Naruto in his chakra mode and blitzes Momoshiki (and this was after he had fused with Kinshiki). 
3. He's easily faster than V2 Ei

None of these kage (aside from Naruto) are anywhere close to him in speed.


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## The Undying (Aug 17, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> 1. You have no proof it was Amenotejikara
> 2. That's not even the speed feat people are talking about. It's the one from Boruto: Naruto the movie where he outpaces Naruto in his chakra mode and blitzes Momoshiki (and this was after he had fused with Kinshiki).
> 3. He's easily faster than V2 Ei
> 
> None of these kage (aside from Naruto) are anywhere close to him in speed.



1. And you have no proof that it wasn't, which is my point. The burden of proof is on the individual trying to propose this as a feat, i.e. you, not me.

2. If you're referring to him blindsiding Momoshiki from behind, that was clearly Amenotejikara. Rewatch the scene.

3. He was having some difficulty with Kinshiki at the beginning of the movie, the same Kinshiki that was effectively brought to his knees by the likes of Choujuuro and Kurotsuchi _alone_. This is also the same Sasuke that, again, shouldn't have faced even a _modicum_ of a challenge in rescuing Sarada from Shin's weapons or blitzing Shin himself if he was anywhere nearly as fast as people claimed.

I haven't seen any solid evidence for base Sasuke having god tier speed aside from people who deliberately exaggerate his feats to make him seem much stronger than he actually is without his Doujutsu abilities. Either one of the Gokage take this handily.


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## ARGUS (Aug 17, 2015)

No MS no rinnegan = Sasuke getting shit stomped


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## Alucardemi (Aug 17, 2015)

Considering his taijutsu in the Boruto movie, he kills them with his bare fucking hands.


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## Altair21 (Aug 18, 2015)

The Undying said:


> 1. And you have no proof that it wasn't, which is my point. The burden of proof is on the individual trying to propose this as a feat, i.e. you, not me.
> 
> 2. If you're referring to him blindsiding Momoshiki from behind, that was clearly Amenotejikara. Rewatch the scene.
> 
> ...



1. No it's not and don't try and play this game. You know damn well the burden of proof is on you. If you're going to suggest it's Amenotejikara then you'd best provide proof because there's not an ounce of evidence suggesting it. I don't have to provide anything because I'm not the one suggesting it was anything other than raw speed, which is the most logical conclusion. 

2. And no, I'm not. I'm talking about when he and Naruto are running side by side and Sasuke outpaces him and blitzes Momoshiki. 

[YOUTUBE]S11-nf1zxbA[/YOUTUBE]

11:56

3. No he wasn't. Sasuke easily dodged all of Kinshiki's moves and landed a blow with chidori. Kinshiki never landed a single blow. He never even used anything aside from kenjutsu and a single chidori against Kinshiki.

4. Yes, because outpacing Naruto in his chakra mode and blitzing Momoshiki isn't solid evidence.  People are going to have to either accept Sasuke's base speed is god tier or downplay Naruto's speed (in his chakra mode no less) to shit tier. I'm ok with either. 

The only version of the Gokage that's taking this is the current one and that's solely due to Naruto. The Gokage from the past gets blitzed and destroyed.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 18, 2015)

This always did make me wonder...do dojutsus actually enhance such stuff as speed or strength? In theory Sasuke should at least get a strength boost if he used Asura path but it wad never referenced.

Its like as if Sasukes Rinnegan powers are ignored or used as a plot device...like getting into Kaguyas dimensions. Sorta similar with Naruto and how he hardly uses any Six Path Senjutsu abilities anymore.

Maybe Kishi and SP realized that they got too OP and try to restrain them somehow to make fights interesting? Sasukes Preta path is broken enough and can qualify as an antaginist ability...which is why most major villains possess absorber like abilities.


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## Mercurial (Aug 18, 2015)

Sasuke trashes.


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## The Undying (Aug 18, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> 1. No it's not and don't try and play this game. You know damn well the burden of proof is on you. If you're going to suggest it's Amenotejikara then you'd best provide proof because there's not an ounce of evidence suggesting it. I don't have to provide anything because I'm not the one suggesting it was anything other than raw speed, which is the most logical conclusion.



The burden of proof is _never_ on the one who didn't even propose the feat, genius. The original claim is that Sasuke was using raw speed, even though this isn't clearly shown in The Last. The burden is on you to prove this since you're a proponent of the proposed feat, not on me to prove otherwise. All _I_ can do is look at each possibility and try to determine which one fits the most.

I'm suggesting it's Amenotejikara because that's the one technique he consistently relied on in the manga to keep up with god tiers. There is certainly no "logical conclusion" that would lead one to believe that a character's movement speed is suddenly this fast when that character has a history of using his Rinnegan to keep pace with people in that tier.



> 2. And no, I'm not. I'm talking about when he and Naruto are running side by side and Sasuke outpaces him and blitzes Momoshiki.



Context isn't one of your strong points, is it?

11:52 is the first time they charge at Momoshiki side-by-side, and they both clash with him at the same time. Sasuke's Taijutsu throws Momoshiki off-balance, and then they run at him again in the shot you refer to where Sasuke is supposedly outpacing Naruto. The "blitz" in question is just Sasuke landing a punch on Momoshiki because he was caught off-balance in the previous shot. There's no reason to conclude that Sasuke can "outpace" KCM Naruto's full speed or that Naruto was even _running_ at full speed when the previous charge specifically showed them colliding with Momoshiki simultaneously after the first dash, indicating equal speed.



> 3. No he wasn't. Sasuke easily dodged all of Kinshiki's moves and landed a blow with chidori. Kinshiki never landed a single blow. He never even used anything aside from kenjutsu and a single chidori against Kinshiki.



The trailer and our information of that scene tells us that Sasuke and Kinshiki were matching each other blow-for-blow with their kenjutsu and keeping pace with each other's movement speed when Amenotejikara wasn't involved. He wasn't dodging all of Kinshiki's attacks or even "blitzing" Kinshiki at all for that matter, he was countering the blade strikes with his own sword because he wasn't fast enough to pressure him with his raw speed.

If Sasuke's base speed was god tier, Kinshiki (an opponent who was trashed by two Kages) would have been nothing more than a minor nuisance at best. Shin would have just died on the spot, Sarada would have been unharmed in Gaiden without Sasuke having to jump out in front of any weapons. This clearly isn't the case. If he can't simply blitz Shin or Kinshiki, he certainly isn't blitzing the Gokage.


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## Altair21 (Aug 18, 2015)

>Can't provide proof for a claim he makes
>Makes excuse after excuse and still can't provide proof

Facts: 

>Sasuke and Naruto are running side by side
>Sasuke managed to keep up and even get ahead
>Blitzes Momoshiki

But no, Naruto wasn't running at full speed despite no proof of such. You sure do enjoy claiming things despite not being able to provide a shred of evidence to backup said claims. 

You truly are one special person.  Ignore is probably the best option, so welcome to it. 

My point stands. Sasuke trashes the Gokage via blitz.


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## ARGUS (Aug 18, 2015)

^that wasnt shunshin though, since they were just running rather than using a quick burst of speed,  
so the only thing that proves is that sasukes foot speed >= narutos 
shunshin is top speeed so that claim still holds 

EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi matched KCM narutos non shunshin speed, so its not absurd to claim that rinnegan sasukes foot speed is equivalent to rikudo narutos, bar shunshin


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## The Undying (Aug 18, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> >Can't provide proof for a claim he makes
> >Makes excuse after excuse and still can't provide proof



>utterly incapable of providing any evidence for the original claim of Sasuke using raw speed in The Last
>calls all counterpoints "excuses" because he doesn't have an actual rebuttal

Cool, I'll take that as a concession then.

Facts: 

>Sasuke couldn't blitz Kinshiki with base speed and in fact kept pace with him throughout the duration of their skirmish
>Sasuke couldn't blitz Shin in their first confrontation, had to jump in the way of Shin's blades to rescue his daughter
>Sasuke couldn't blitz Momoshiki with base speed, could only punch him in the stomach because Momoshiki was off-balance in previous shot
>Sasuke clashed with Momoshiki at the exact same time as Naruto when both characters first charged at him, but somehow Sasuke's movement speed is even faster than KCM Naruto's despite neither one using Shunshin

Your point couldn't even stand on a crutch if you tried to support it.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 18, 2015)

Ehhh, speed feats in this manga are often plot based and rarely if ever is an enemy killed via shunshin blitz.

Raikage did not keep blitzin Madara despite the latter commenting on how fast he is at the beginning. Naruto did not blitz Obito or Madara. He did not blitz Kinshiki or Momoshiki either. Nor did Minato defeat anyone via blitz in the war. Sasuke did not defat Deidara via blitz either despite being clearly faster.

As for the new gokages in the Boruto movie we still need to see more of their fight. They could be more powerful than 4th Shinobi War gokage with Gaara getting much stronger since. All we know is that they were not casually owned despite facing guys that defeated and captured someone as strong as Naruto.

Kinshiki even cut Shinju with a single sword swing.

Sasuke in base and without any jutsu seems to be as strong as BSM/RSM Naruto who does not use any ninjutsu and might or might have not used shunshin when he clashed with Momoshiki. Did Sasuke use some Rinnegan jutsu to power himself up or does having the Rinnegan activated does increase his physical stats?

Either we need to wait for the Boruto novel to read some more detailed description of the fight or if we view the novel as filler to stick to those taijutsu feats and gaiden feats. There is little of Sasuke showing his stuff in adulthood at full power and during the movie both him and Naruto were restricted from using ninjutsu due to Momoshikis abilities. We got even less stuff from the current gokage.

That said even without his eye powers base Sasuke should be easily able to handle the gokage that Madara fought.


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## Max Thunder (Aug 18, 2015)

The Undying said:


> >utterly incapable of providing any evidence for the original claim of Sasuke using raw speed in The Last
> >calls all counterpoints "excuses" because he doesn't have an actual rebuttal
> 
> Cool, I'll take that as a concession then.
> ...



But yours could? You're the one that claimed that Sasuke used amenotejikara in the first place? lol

And your only reasoning being: "it's his go to technique to keep up with god tiers."

Amenotejikara can only be used if he swaps an object with the entity he's trying to substitute it with. This swapping is clearly demonstrated in various occasions throughout the manga to emphasise the fact that he is using that technique. It is even shown in the movie with the black and white effect.

If it's not clearly demonstrated then there is absolutely no reason to assume he has used it. You're the one choosing to make that assumption based on "It's his go to technique" which to me hilariously stands out as "I have no point but I'm trying really hard." Especially considering that such statement is very far from the truth.

Nitpicking instances of the manga where Sasuke could use but didn't use his shunshin is about as credible as saying Naruto's speed and durability are both shit because he got one shotted by his little daughter.

You're clearly nitpicking to support your dumb points which only makes you come across like a shitty debater.


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## tkpirate (Aug 18, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Sasuke's speed feat from The Last was probably Amenotejikara, which is essentially his go-to technique for god tier movement. Even if it wasn't, "blitzing" base Guy and base Kakashi doesn't automatically make him faster than someone like V2 Ei and it's not nearly as impressive as certain people want it to be.
> 
> If he was that fast, he would've had no issues effortlessly swooping Sarada away from Shin's blades in Gaiden without having to jump in front of them instead, or better yet just blitzing Shin the moment he first engaged him.



Why would Sasuke need any speed feat from the last to tell that he is far faster than the gokage(except Naruto)when he can keep up with a Juubi jin like Madara and six paths Senjutsu mode Naruto in the manga?
That shin fight was full of pis unless you think Shin is as fast as a Juubi jin or Six paths Senjutsu Naruto,or Sasuke became slower for no reason.

Anyway if Naruto is there Sasuke loses,otherwise he wins.


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## The Undying (Aug 18, 2015)

Max Thunder said:


> But yours could? You're the one that claimed that Sasuke used amenotejikara in the first place? lol



Reread my post. I never claimed that Sasuke undoubtedly used Amenotejikara, I said that there was no concrete proof for his base speed being used in that scene and proceeded to posit Amenotejikara as an alternative possibility. It's just something I personally consider likely because of his reliance on the technique in terms of speed. I even considered the possibility of him using his base speed and proceeded to demonstrate that it wouldn't definitively showcase him being a god tier speedster simply because he was capable of blitzing base Kakashi or base Guy.

If someone is going to propose a feat, they first need to prove that it's an actual feat. People who argue that Sasuke was breezing past Kakashi and Guy without his Rinnegan in the movie need to show concrete evidence that he was using raw speed in that particular scene as opposed to something else capable of doing the same thing (Rinnegan), otherwise their point has no substance.



> And your only reasoning being: "it's his go to technique to keep up with god tiers."



Which is perfectly sound reasoning. I never called it a confirmation.



> Amenotejikara can only be used if he swaps an object with the entity he's trying to substitute it with. This swapping is clearly demonstrated in various occasions throughout the manga to emphasise the fact that he is using that technique. It is even shown in the movie with the black and white effect.



Except both the Madara and Kaguya fights show him teleporting on multiple occasions without clearly showing us the object that he swapped with. Even if he's just swapping with something inconsequential like pebbles or air, the point is that he's still clearly using his Rinnegan to warp his position. Sasuke never moved that quickly with base speed alone; he wasn't physically fast enough to reach Obito's portal within a few meters in the duration it took for Sakura to scream a few words and sentences, so it's not likely that he's a god tier speedster without Rinnegan.



> If it's not clearly demonstrated then there is absolutely no reason to assume he has used it. You're the one choosing to make that assumption based on "It's his go to technique"



But my entire point is that you're the one choosing to make the assumption that he was using physical movement speed in that instance.



> Nitpicking instances of the manga where Sasuke could use but didn't use his shunshin is about as credible as saying Naruto's speed and durability are both shit because he got one shotted by his little daughter.



Too bad I'm using entire fights for my examples, which is the exact opposite of nitpicking. An instance of nitpicking would be the argument that Sasuke can blitz Momoshiki simply because he punched him _once_ in a battle that lasted several minutes where Momoshiki was handling Sasuke's base speed perfectly fine. 

At the end of the day, you're cherrypicking something that looks like it might be convenient for your personal bias and extrapolating it to Sasuke's repertoire without the slightest regard for context or internal consistency. Compare that to most of adult Sasuke's base showings, which _don't_ showcase him magically blitzing and instakilling opponents who aren't even god tier, and I think it's clear where some of the agendas lie here.


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## Max Thunder (Aug 18, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Reread my post. I never claimed that Sasuke undoubtedly used Amenotejikara, I said that there was no concrete proof for his base speed being used in that scene and proceeded to posit Amenotejikara as an alternative possibility. It's just something I personally consider likely because of his reliance on the technique in terms of speed. I even considered the possibility of him using his base speed and proceeded to demonstrate that it wouldn't definitively showcase him being a god tier speedster simply because he was capable of blitzing base Kakashi or base Guy.
> 
> If someone is going to propose a feat, they first need to prove that it's an actual feat. People who argue that Sasuke was breezing past Kakashi and Guy without his Rinnegan in the movie need to show concrete evidence that he was using raw speed in that particular scene as opposed to something else capable of doing the same thing (Rinnegan), otherwise their point has no substance.
> 
> ...



You're not outright confirming it but you're undeniably arguing as if your opinion is unquestionable.

Naruto isn't fast then if he couldn't consistently speed blitz Sasuke throughout the entirety of their fight or perhaps he's simply very slow because he couldn't dodge Himawari.

Juubi Jin Obito isn't fast if he couldn't consistently speed blitz Sasuke throughout the entirety of their fight.

Juubi Jin Madara isn't fast if he couldn't consistently speed blitz Sasuke throughout the entirety of their fight.

Logic.

You're a hypocrite.

You consider *one* occasion in a fight against Shin as insurmountable evidence that Sasuke isn't fast because he didn't demonstrate his speed.

But don't consider another circumstance where he did as proof that he is indeed fast because it wasn't consistent enough for you. 

Since when does a character need to show an ability more than once throughout the entirety of a fight in order to be considered an actual feat that's a hilarious argument. 

It's also perfectly reasonable to assume Sasuke is physically fast considering he's been praised for his speed by a god tier in the manga.

You're calling me biased now? Such an easy allegation in order to try and sway the argument to your side how desperate. But if you want to go there have you looked at the things you've said in this thread? Based on how one sided your arguments are it's easy for anyone to see you're being biased yourself.

I'll refrain from calling you a hypocrite. Once again.


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## The Undying (Aug 18, 2015)

Max Thunder said:


> Since when does a character need to show an ability more than once throughout the entirety of a fight in order to be considered an actual feat that's a hilarious argument.



Don't put words in my mouth. I never once insinuated that characters need to show an ability more than once for it to be considered a feat, I said that the lone instance you're cherrypicking is being applied without regard for the context of the situation. Sasuke, for example, never actually blitzed Momoshiki considering the latter was already off-balance when he was punched in the gut, and this is explicitly supported by every other scene in the fight as Momoshiki was having absolutely no trouble whatsoever with Sasuke's movement speed. Sasuke miraculously being fast enough to blitz Momoshiki's transformed state with his _base speed_ when it's crystal clear that he wasn't even capable of blitzing Kinshiki with his base speed is an absurd argument.

Neither Naruto nor Madara could consistently blitz Sasuke, and that's because of Sasuke's god tier evasion/speed using a Rinnegan technique (which is restricted in this match-up). I never denied that Sasuke had impressive movements for non-god tier base speed either, so I'm not sure where you're getting that.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2015)

Moral of the story: If you hit someone and it looked fast, it's a blitz!


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## Blu-ray (Aug 18, 2015)

So we see Sasuke keeping pace with and even pulling ahead of Rikudo BSM Naruto, and outright kicks Momoshiki through mountains several times over in tandem with Naruto, while Momo is there stunned all the way, yet his speed is still being questioned?

Yeah no. Unless this Gokage has Naruto in it, they get blitzed and vaped by a meteor busting Chidori, with knockout via Sharingan genjutsu optional. 



The Undying said:


> I'm suggesting it's Amenotejikara because that's the one technique he consistently relied on in the manga to keep up with god tiers. There is certainly no "logical conclusion" that would lead one to believe that a character's movement speed is suddenly this fast when that character has a history of using his Rinnegan to keep pace with people in that tier.



Yeah this movie kills this notion entirely, cause there was no Amenotejikara when Naruto and Sasuke took him on all out.



> Context isn't one of your strong points, is it?
> 
> 11:52 is the first time they charge at Momoshiki side-by-side, and they both clash with him at the same time. Sasuke's Taijutsu throws Momoshiki off-balance, and then they run at him again in the shot you refer to where Sasuke is supposedly outpacing Naruto. The "blitz" in question is just Sasuke landing a punch on Momoshiki because he was caught off-balance in the previous shot. There's no reason to conclude that Sasuke can "outpace" KCM Naruto's full speed or that Naruto was even _running_ at full speed when the previous charge specifically showed them colliding with Momoshiki simultaneously after the first dash, indicating equal speed.



What implies Naruto wasn't running at full speed, and what reason would he have not to? By the same measure, nothing would indicate Sasuke was going full speed either.

Even if I give you the whole caught off balance thing, he regains it considering he punches Naruto and Sasuke away later, but still ends up getting juggled through mountains afterwards.

If he can do that to Momoshiki, Gokage standing a chance does not compute.



The Undying said:


> 3. He was having some difficulty with Kinshiki at the beginning of the movie, the same Kinshiki that was effectively *brought to his knees by the likes of Choujuuro and Kurotsuchi alone*. This is also the same Sasuke that, again, shouldn't have faced even a _modicum_ of a challenge in rescuing Sarada from Shin's weapons or blitzing Shin himself if he was anywhere nearly as fast as people claimed.



Lol wat? That was Kurotsuchi, Chojuro, *and* Sasuke.

The only thing they did alone, was get their binding destroyed and be swatted away in the process.

Sasuke had no intention of killing Shin, and if he can't so much as manifest Mangekyo, then him being incapable of pumping enough chakra to pull a god tier Shunshin is not that much of a stretch.



The Undying said:


> Too bad I'm using entire fights for my examples, which is the exact opposite of nitpicking. An instance of nitpicking would be the argument that *Sasuke can blitz Momoshiki simply because he punched him once in a battle that lasted several minutes* where Momoshiki was handling Sasuke's base speed perfectly fine.



You'd have a point if he didn't juggle Momoshiki with his foot in the air through freaking plateaus.


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## Zensuki (Aug 18, 2015)

Par Naruto, Sasuke solos the other kages. Dat base speed.


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## The Undying (Aug 18, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> You'd have a point if he didn't juggle Momoshiki with his foot in the air through freaking plateaus.



But that has nothing to do with my point, which was Momoshiki handling Sasuke's base speed perfectly well by itself. Momoshiki was reacting to, evading and blocking several of their strikes individually without much effort, but was overpowered by their combined well-coordinated Taijutsu. It's certainly an impressive feat, but I still don't understand how this translates to Sasuke being fast enough to blitz Momoshiki on his own. 



> Lol wat? That was Kurotsuchi, Chojuro, *and* Sasuke.
> 
> The only thing they did alone, was get their binding destroyed and be swatted away in the process.



The leaked scene of the battle clearly shows Kurotsuchi kicking Kinshiki through a rock and several feet into the air before he could react, followed by Sasuke destroying Kinshiki's blade and Choujuuro binding Kinshiki with his chakra blades. Sasuke's assistance there was pretty minimal, and spoilers indicate that the bulk of the fight involved teamwork between Choujuuro and Kurotsuchi.

I mean if the full movie shows otherwise, I'll gladly concede on the issue, but their individual feats were nothing significantly less impressive than what we see/know about Sasuke vs. Kinshiki in terms of speed. What we were actually shown from the Kages individually was damn impressive.



> Sasuke had no intention of killing Shin, and if he can't so much as manifest Mangekyo, then him being incapable of pumping enough chakra to pull a god tier Shunshin is not that much of a stretch.



Sasuke could have blitzed Shin without killing him if he possessed that level of movement speed, and it's extremely doubtful that a Shunshin for Sasuke would require any more chakra than the other techniques he used during the fight.


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## Blu-ray (Aug 18, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Momoshiki was reacting to, evading and blocking several of their strikes individually without much effort, but was overpowered by their combined Taijutsu. It's certainly an impressive feat, but I still don't understand how this translates to Sasuke being fast enough to blitz Momoshiki on his own.



It doesn't, and I didn't make that assertion. It does however mean the significantly inferior Gokage do get blitzed.

That, and there was nothing effortless about what Momo did. Especially after Sasuke kicked him so hard it started their little air juggle game. An individual strike I might add.


> The leaked scene of the battle clearly shows Kurotsuchi kicking Kinshiki through a rock and several feet into the air before he could react, followed by Sasuke destroying Kinshiki's blade and Choujuuro binding Kinshiki with his chakra blades. Sasuke's assistance there was extremely minimal, and spoilers indicate that the bulk of the fight involved teamwork between Choujuuro and Kurotsuchi.
> 
> I mean if the full movie shows otherwise, I'll gladly concede on the issue, but what we were actually shown from the Kages individually was damn impressive.


Not denying this at all. But saying Chojuro and Kurotsuchi did that _alone_ is far from the truth, especially when they only bound him after Sasuke landed him on his face.



> Sasuke could have blitzed Shin without killing him if he possessed that level of movement speed, and I highly doubt that a Shunshin for Sasuke would require any more chakra than the other techniques he used during the fight.



Using Shunshin in itself isn't the issue, the issue is using it to that extent when he chakra was that low. And the only tech is used was a Gogakyu, so that really isn't saying much.

In any case I'm taking about shielding Sarada instead of grabbing her out of the way. Blitzing shin was kinda unnecessary when he was already on the ground.


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## The Undying (Aug 18, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> That, and there was nothing effortless about what Momo did.



He didn't seem to have much of a problem dealing with their individual strikes before he was eventually overwhelmed, and it's telling that he was able to do this against both of them simultaneously for some time. He simply wasn't capable of handling both of them at once for a prolonged period.

In any case, this feat lends more to Sasuke's physical strength and Taijutsu prowess than his movement speed, and I don't see it as some definitive indication that he's blitzing all of the Gokage before they can do anything.



> Not denying this at all. But saying Chojuro and Kurotsuchi did that _alone_ is far from the truth, especially when they only bound him after Sasuke landed him on his face.



My point was that they were keeping pace with him exceptionally well _before_ Sasuke's involvement, just as Sasuke was previously keeping pace and clashing evenly with Kinshiki during the beginning of the movie without just blitzing him.



> Using Shunshin in itself isn't the issue, the issue is using it to that extent when he chakra was that low. And the only tech is used was a Gogakyu, so that really isn't saying much.



Correction: Goukyaku and Amenotejikara, the latter of which probably drains more chakra than the former. The fact that he regained his Doujutsu abilities not long after the fight suggests that he wasn't _that_ low on chakra in the first place.


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## Blu-ray (Aug 18, 2015)

The Undying said:


> He didn't seem to have much of a problem dealing with their individual strikes before he was eventually overwhelmed, and it's telling that he was able to do this against both of them simultaneously for some time. He simply wasn't capable of handling both of them at once for a prolonged period.



Coulda fooled me, cause they sent him flying backwards with their second hit. He held his own, not denying that, but there was nothing effortless about it.



> In any case, this feat lends more to Sasuke's physical strength and Taijutsu prowess than his movement speed, and I don't see it as some definitive indication that he's blitzing all of the Gokage before they can do anything.



Exactly why is it a display of strength and taijutsu prowess, but not speed? All three were on display, and speed was what especially what stood out along with strength.

He doesn't need to blitz all them before they can do anything to pull a win.


> My point was that they were keeping pace with him exceptionally well _before_ Sasuke's involvement, just as Sasuke was previously keeping pace and clashing evenly with Kinshiki during the beginning of the movie without just blitzing him.



Sasuke didn't go all out against Kinshiki in their first encounter however. He took that scroll and ran. Even then as far as their skirmish went, Sasuke came out without a scratch. Kin on the other hand lost his horn.



> Correction: Goukyaku and Amenotejikara, the latter of which probably drains more chakra than the former. The fact that he regained his Doujutsu abilities not long after the fight suggests that he wasn't _that_ low on chakra in the first place.



True on Ameno, though the fact that he couldn't so much as manifest MS still stands.

Nah, it was quite apparent that he was indeed low, and an unspecified amount of time passed. Even then that doesn't change that during that fight, his abilities were still compromised.


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## Kuzehiko (Aug 18, 2015)

Naruto was stronger than Sauce in their final battle but as adults they're on pair like Sauce's description said so adult Naruto versus adult Sauce would be a tie.

Adult Sauce can beat all the others Gokages (Not Naruto with them) easily.

Now if it is all the Gokages (including Naruto) they all would take all the shit out of Sauce.


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## The Undying (Aug 18, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Coulda fooled me, cause they sent him flying backwards with their second hit. He held his own, not denying that, but there was nothing effortless about it.



The fact that he held his own at all gives me the impression that he wouldn't have any real issues engaging in hand-to-hand combat with just one of them as opposed to both, but I digress. I don't feel like their speed was individually a problem, but their combined speed (along with top tier Taijutsu prowess) is another story entirely.



> Nah, it was quite apparent that he was indeed low, and an unspecified amount of time passed. Even then that doesn't change that during that fight, his abilities were still compromised..



I wasn't exactly disputing him being low on chakra so much as emphasizing the fact that he's been recharging since the beginning of Gaiden at least. I agree that his Doujutsu abilities were compromised, but I'm honestly not seeing any evidence for his _base_ abilities also being stifled. Keep in mind that the Sasuke in this thread isn't far off from gimped Gaiden Sasuke in terms of what he brings to the table; his EMS and Rinnegan are completely restricted.

I think I'll leave the subject for now until the movie is released, honestly. I've said what I needed to say, and even though I won't _completely_ discount the notion of him winning given the evolution of his abilities since VOTE 2, I don't see any reason to believe it's as one-sided as people are trying to convey. EMS Sasuke would stomp and Rinnegan Sasuke would just effortlessly neg, any form lower than that and I'm sure he's going to have a fair amount of difficulty at the very least.


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## Blu-ray (Aug 19, 2015)

The Undying said:


> The fact that he held his own at all gives me the impression that he wouldn't have any real issues engaging in hand-to-hand combat with just one of them as opposed to both, but I digress. I don't feel like their speed was individually a problem, but their combined speed (along with top tier Taijutsu prowess) is another story entirely.


We're more or less in agreement here.



> I wasn't exactly disputing him being low on chakra so much as emphasizing the fact that he's been recharging since the beginning of Gaiden at least. I agree that his Doujutsu abilities were compromised, but I'm honestly not seeing any evidence for his _base_ abilities also being stifled. Keep in mind that the Sasuke in this thread isn't far off from gimped Gaiden Sasuke in terms of what he brings to the table; his EMS and Rinnegan are completely restricted.


Mainly going off of the fact that Ninjutsu derives it's strength from the amount of chakra pumped into it, Shunshin included. If his chakra is reduced to the extent MS, something even pre Rikudo Sasuke could casually spam is unusable, then it's a reasonable deduction that his other ninjutsu would suffer no?



> I think I'll leave the subject for now until the movie is released, honestly. I've said what I needed to say, and even though I won't _completely_ discount the notion of him winning given the evolution of his abilities since VOTE 2, I don't see any reason to believe it's as one-sided as people are trying to convey. EMS Sasuke would stomp and Rinnegan Sasuke would just effortlessly neg, any form lower than that and I'm sure he's going to have a fair amount of difficulty at the very least.



Okay then.

It's just very hard to see how they come out on top given what he showed in that fight alone, and this is a Sasuke who couldn't even _use offensive ninjutsu at all_, a restriction he wouldn't have against the Gokage. 

Then there's the fact that Sasuke can use Kage Bunshin now, and it just looks even worse for them.


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## Brooks (Aug 19, 2015)

Speed and physical attacks are on a whole new level for the Gokages to even stand a chance.


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## The Runner (Aug 19, 2015)

Rinnegan w/EMS Sasuke outpaced a BM Naruto. That isn't surprising.

What was surprising was the fact that Naruto didn't use Biju Sage Mode in the fight. What's with that?

Anyway, Sasuke gets stomped if the Gokage include Naruto, he gets murderd either way if he doesn't even have the rinnegan and EMS in his disposal


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## The Runner (Aug 20, 2015)

Wait, yeah, biju sage mode.

It's really hard to notice...


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## The Undying (Aug 21, 2015)

Just gonna quickly respond to this:



VolatileSoul said:


> Mainly going off of the fact that Ninjutsu derives it's strength from the amount of chakra pumped into it, Shunshin included. If his chakra is reduced to the extent MS, something even pre Rikudo Sasuke could casually spam is unusable, then it's a reasonable deduction that his other ninjutsu would suffer no?



Shunshin indeed requires chakra to use, but I don't believe that Shunshin's speed is dependent on how much chakra is pumped into it; were that the case, characters with top tier chakra reserves like Part 1 Naruto and Kisame would easily have been top tier speedsters as well. The biggest variable for Shunshin speed seems to correlate with the user's _base_ foot speed, since pretty much every speedster in the series to my knowledge possesses both quick reactions and base speed as well as Shunshin speed. That's not to say that Sasuke himself isn't a speedster, of course, since him using a Shunshin comparable to KCM Naruto in the Boruto movie would already solidify that. I just can't find any reason to believe that he was physically _slower_ in Gaiden than he normally would be.

You have a solid point regarding Kage Bunshin, though. I didn't consider that, and I'm not sure how the Gokage would manage to combat it if all of Sasuke's base abilities are transferred over to the clones (which they logically should be).


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## Arles Celes (Aug 21, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Just gonna quickly respond to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did not Obitos shunshin greatly improve after getting Juubi? It makes sense that he used the new and greater chakra reserves he got for a much better shunshin.

Ei also increased his chakra levels to bijuu level according to Karin in order to use V2 shunshin.

An increase in chakra level clearly seems to help.


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## The Undying (Aug 21, 2015)

According to DB4, Ei's speed increases in V2 because of the amount of electricity his Raiton Chakra Mode pumps through his body and nervous system to stimulate his movements and neural impulses. In any case, Karin was commenting on the strength of his chakra when comparing it to the Bijuu, not necessarily the quantity of his reserves, which in itself is a fixed amount.

Obito's speed _in general_ increased after absorbing the Juubi, not just his Shunshin, so he was incredibly fast regardless of whether he was pumping chakra into Shunshin or not. That's mainly because a Jinchuuriki's base abilities become augmented by their Bijuu's strength in enhanced modes.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 21, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Obito's speed _in general_ increased after absorbing the Juubi, not just his Shunshin, so he was always incredibly fast regardless of whether he was kneading chakra or not.



Yeah, but it was only after he got Juubi that he got tons of praise regarding speed. I do not recall anyone praising his speed before even though he certainly wasnt slow as he could keep up with many speedsters...granted mostly due to his skillful use of Kamui rather than due to impressive shunshins I think.

Shunshin in general most likely requires great precision and skill while using said speed burst. That is why KCM Naruto twisted his ankle when using it against Kisame due to lacking skill with it at that point.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 21, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> This always did make me wonder...do dojutsus actually enhance such stuff as speed or strength? In theory Sasuke should at least get a strength boost if he used Asura path but it wad never referenced.
> 
> Its like as if Sasukes Rinnegan powers are ignored or used as a plot device...like getting into Kaguyas dimensions. Sorta similar with Naruto and how he hardly uses any Six Path Senjutsu abilities anymore.
> 
> Maybe Kishi and SP realized that they got too OP and try to restrain them somehow to make fights interesting? Sasukes Preta path is broken enough and can qualify as an antaginist ability...which is why most major villains possess absorber like abilities.



Stronger Doujutsu provide stronger chakra. As we know stronger chakra tends to enhance physical abilities.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 21, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Stronger Doujutsu provide stronger chakra. As we know stronger chakra tends to enhance physical abilities.



Yeah, but I do not recall Itachi or Kakashi showing any feats of super strength. Itachi did pull a few nice shunshins against Bee during the War but he only had a mere sharinan active at that time and did not show anything above it once he activated MS. Deva Pain also despite wielding Rinnegan was pushed far away by SM Narutos attacks. Granted he was a puppet and not the real deal but...

Madara was also pushed quite far when hit by Ei or Tsunade even though he pulled off a block in time. Maybe it was due to him having a fake Rinnegan by being an edo though.

EMS Sasuke during the fight against Kabuto did not show more impressive physical feats than his dojutsu weaker brother however...

Tbh I think that an increase in physical stats due to chakra is only restricted to six path chakra if we exclude Senjutsu or bijuu chakra enhancements. Though Naruto even if he lost RSM he might still retained six path chakra and that combined with even just KCM should theoretically give him greater strength and speed than Sasuke who only got six path chakra alone without any super mode. 

The only explanations for that would be either the Yin chakra from RS being strong enough to give equal physical enhancement to RSM/BSM on top of the boost six path chakra normally gives OR/AND Sasuke training quite hard during all those years to improve his physical stats...

Hmmm....


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## Blu-ray (Aug 21, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Just gonna quickly respond to this:
> 
> Shunshin indeed requires chakra to use, but I don't believe that Shunshin's speed is dependent on how much chakra is pumped into it; were that the case, characters with top tier chakra reserves like Part 1 Naruto and Kisame would easily have been top tier speedsters as well.


Actual skill in the jutsu plays as much of a role though. It's not just about chakra, both are factors. The amount of chakra pumped in, as well as how skilled the user is(chakra control) both determine a jutsu's efficacy.



> The biggest variable for Shunshin speed seems to correlate with the user's _base_ foot speed, since pretty much every speedster in the series to my knowledge possesses both quick reactions and base speed as well as Shunshin speed. That's not to say that Sasuke himself isn't a speedster, of course, since him using a Shunshin comparable to KCM Naruto in the Boruto movie would already solidify that. I just can't find any reason to believe that he was physically _slower_ in Gaiden than he normally would be.



It's apparent chakra plays a significant role though. Not only is ninjutsu becoming stronger the more chakra pumped in a general rule, Naruto's speed increasing whenever he tapped into the Kyuubi's chakra is the prime example of chakra playing a role, and it's especially apparent when he first accessed Kyuubi Chakra mode.

I'm not arguing that he was physically slower though, but that his Shunshin (what his main speed comes from) would be slower. I'm just saying that the reduced chakra, especially since it was a severe reduction, would compromise him somewhat.



> You have a solid point regarding Kage Bunshin, though. I didn't consider that, and I'm not sure how the Gokage would manage to combat it if all of Sasuke's base abilities are transferred over to the clones (which they logically should be).



Another reason why I can't see that standing much a chance. With his chakra, he should be able to create a 1000 clone army. But even if we limit him to the numbers he showed in the movie, it's still difficult to see them put up a challenge, let alone pull a win.


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## The Undying (Aug 21, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Actual skill in the jutsu plays as much of a role though. It's not just about chakra, both are factors.



Actual skill wouldn't determine the speed of a technique like Shunshin though. When Naruto first transformed into KCM, he had relatively little skill with the newer and faster Shunshin, but that didn't change his actual speed when using it which was noted to be extremely fast.



VolatileSoul said:


> It's apparent chakra plays a significant role though. Not only is ninjutsu becoming stronger the more chakra pumped in a general rule, Naruto's speed increasing whenever he tapped into the Kyuubi's chakra is the prime example of chakra playing a role, and it's especially apparent when he first accessed Kyuubi Chakra mode.



Naruto's speed increases in Kyuubi Chakra Mode because of the efficacy and strength of the Kyuubi's chakra augmenting his base physicality. This has more to do with the quality of chakra being utilized rather than its quantity, otherwise Ei wouldn't have needed the electrical synapse-boosting attributes of Raiton chakra to increase his Shunshin speed, Kisame would have been one of the fastest Shunshin users in the world and a young Naruto would have been much faster than Kakashi without even relying on the Kyuubi.

The principle of pumping more chakra into a specific jutsu to increase its potency generally only applies to techniques reliant on raw power IMO. The speed of a Shunshin mainly appears to be determined by its user's physical body movement speed, which is why transformation boosts in physicality usually increase both base speed and Shunshin speed.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

Adult Naruto >= Adult Sasuke.

Add in the other Kage and we get the result.

Kage take this high extreme diff.


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## Blu-ray (Dec 15, 2016)

Why'd you necro this more than a year old thread?


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## adeshina365 (Dec 15, 2016)

Wow, was searching through this thread one hour ago, now it got bumped

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 16, 2016)

Sasuke curbstomps War Arc Gokage but loses to Current Gokage because Naruto and him are equals any time you add anything to the either one, it becomes skewed.


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## Infernal Imp (Dec 17, 2016)

Past Gokage? They get neg diffed. Current Gokage? Sasuke loses since Naruto >= him and the other 4 there either die in the crossfire or get lucky enough to pick him off after he and Naruto proceed to lay waste to the landscape again.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 17, 2016)

Any Gokage w/ Naruto wrecks Sasuke. Especially restricted. It's a dick move pitting him against a team that includes Naruto and restricting only Sasuke. If it's Gokage w/o Naruto, he destroys them. Even without Rinnegan or Mangekyo. Considering Sasuke is restricted, I'm guessing the Gokage don't include Naruto though. I also don't get the people saying that destroying the meteor is an example of a lack of strength for Sasuke. That half of the meteor was the only thing left, and he vaporized it. That doesn't mean he couldn't destroy a bigger one though...


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## Serene Grace (Dec 17, 2016)

Lol, Sasuke loses. Sasuke and Naruto are already equals and would likely stalemate in this match, so adding the other gokage puts the nail in the coffin for Sasuke. If it's war arc Gokage, he effortlessly rapes.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 17, 2016)

Naruto collects all available nature energy again but sasuke does not have bijjus to match the scale .Naruto wins even if sasuke is not restricted .


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 17, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Lol, Sasuke loses. Sasuke and Naruto are already equals and would likely stalemate in this match, so adding the other gokage puts the nail in the coffin for Sasuke. If it's war arc Gokage, he effortlessly rapes.


Look at the restrictions to say they are equal.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 17, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Shit, Naruto rape stomps.




Basically this.

Adult Naruto >= Adult Sasuke
Adult Naruto >>>>>>>>> Restricted Sasuke >>>> Gokage

Adult Naruto + Gokage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Restricted Sasuke

Reactions: Winner 1


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