# Turrin Top 100



## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

This is my ranking of the top 100 Naruto characters based on shown abilities and the portrayal of this abilities; *overall portrayal is not accounted for.*

If you think I’m missing someone in the Top 100 let me know. I fully expect this to rustle jimmies on some placements but keep the above bold in mind and I’m more then willing to discuss any placement in a civil manner, everyone else will be ignored

Momoshiki (3rd Eye)
Kaguya
Hagaromo
Madara (3rd Eye)
Naruto (Adult) / Jigen?
Sasuke (Adult)
Hamura
Naruto (The Last)
Toneri
Naruto VoTE 2 / Asura?
Sasuke VoTe 2 / Indra?
Momoshiki
Madara 1 Rinnegan
Naruto SPSM
Sasuke Sharinnegab
Madara SM Rinnegan
Obito Juubi Jin
Kinshiki
Gai 8th Gate
Kakashi DMS
Hashirama VOTE
Madara VOTE
Hashirama Edo
Madara Edo
BSM Naruto
CS EMS Sasuke
EMS Sasuke Choke Tome
Adult Gaara
Delta
Adult Kurotsuchi
Adult Chojuro
Rinnegan Obito w/ Bijuu
Kabuto w/ Reasonable amount of Edos
Danzo w/ Koto charged
Tobirama
Edo Minato BM
Adult Obito MS
Naruto BM
Killer B End of Shippuden
Adult Darui
Uchiha Shin
Nagato Edo
Minato
Itachi Edo
Naruto KCM
Sasuke EMS
Pain Rikudo
Gengetsu
Mu
Onoki
Yagura
Naruto KN6
Gaara End of Shippuden
MS Sasuke Danzo Fight
Jiraiya
Itachi Sick
Orochimaru w/ P1 Edos
Hiruzen Old
Sakura WA
Tsunade
Sandaime Raikage
Kinkaku
Ginkaku
Naruto Post Senjutsu Training
Hebi Sasuke
Gai  End of Shippuden
Ei
Sasori
Kakashi End of Shippuden
KN4
Haishi WA
Darui WA
Kakuzu
Kisame
Deidara
Rasa
Edo Hanzo
Mei
Chouji WA
Naruto Wind Arc
Dan
Chiyo Old
Kimi Healthy
Mifune
Chojuro WA
Kurotsuchi WA
Hidan
Kabuto P1
Kakashi P1
Naruto BOS
Temari WA
Zabuza
Yamato
Roshi
Dodai
Hyuuga Neji
Lee WA
Shino WA
Kankuro WA
Fu Yamanaka

Interested in your opinion @Shark and @UchihaX28, and other vets

Reactions: Like 2


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## ShinAkuma (May 24, 2019)

I don't agree with every placement but I respect the effort.


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## Zembie (May 24, 2019)

List is all over the place. A for effort.


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## Android (May 24, 2019)

> Chojoru and Kurotsuchi above BM Naruto and BM Minato, above Nagato and Kabuto, and above Rinnegan Obito

..........

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (May 24, 2019)

Android said:


> > Chojiru and Kurotsuchi above BM Naruto and BM Minato, above Nagato and Kabuto, and above Rinnegan Obito
> 
> ..........


Its Turrin after all.


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## Rocky (May 24, 2019)

Did you actually put Old Hiruzen above Orochimaru with Edo Tensei

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 24, 2019)

Android said:


> > Chojiru and Kurotsuchi above BM Naruto and BM Minato, above Nagato and Kabuto, and above Rinnegan Obito
> 
> ..........


I was laughing as well


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## Santoryu (May 24, 2019)

I must say, I never expected you to place wheelchair Gai above Ei.


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## Hayumi (May 24, 2019)

Good effort but Nagato is wayyyy too low. And Kurotsuchi and Chojuro are way too high. Also where is Hanzo? Oh and neji is too low<


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## ATastyMuffin (May 24, 2019)

Where's SM Naruto?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (May 24, 2019)

Ya know I disagree with alot of it, although I can't deny you put effort into it


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Rocky said:


> Did you actually put Old Hiruzen above Orochimaru with Edo Tensei


With P1 Edo Tensei yes, as Old Hiruzen has better chances to win against higher ranked characters due to Shiki Fuujin


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## Gianfi (May 24, 2019)

I really don’t agree with some of your placements (Darui above Minato or Itachi? Kurotsuchi above Rinnegan Obito?) but I really do appreciate the effort. Tbh your Boruto ranking kinda ruined your list

Edit: also just saw where you rank Tobirama, lol


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## Djomla (May 24, 2019)




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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Android said:


> > Chojiru and Kurotsuchi above BM Naruto and BM Minato, above Nagato and Kabuto, and above Rinnegan Obito
> 
> ..........


They were able to keep up with and bind Kinshiki whose way above the characters you just listed


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> I really don’t agree with some of your placements (Darui above Minato or Itachi? Kurotsuchi above Rinnegan Obito?) but I really do appreciate the effort. Tbh your Boruto ranking kinda ruined your list


Seems like you just don’t agree with what Boruto showed us; which I can’t help you on.


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## Topace (May 24, 2019)

This list is certainly a choice.


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## Android (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> They were able to keep up with and bind Kinshiki whose way above the characters you just listed


Chojuro ..... Above BM Minato, BM Naruto, Rinnegan Obito and SM Kabuto w/Edo Tensei army ....


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## Zembie (May 24, 2019)

Android said:


> Chojuro ..... Above BM Minato, BM Naruto, Rinnegan Obito and SM Kabuto w/Edo Tensei army ....


You are doubting our lord and saviour Turrinama??? FOR SHAME


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Android said:


> Chojuro ..... Above BM Minato, BM Naruto, Rinnegan Obito and SM Kabuto w/Edo Tensei army ....


Yup, except not Edo army I didn’t include massive prep

Kept up with a bound a stronger character then the ones your listing, stop complaining or offer a counter point


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## Rocky (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> With P1 Edo Tensei yes, as Old Hiruzen has better chances to win against higher ranked characters due to Shiki Fuujin


He would only draw, not win, and he literally lost to Orochimaru.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Rocky said:


> He would only draw, not win, and he literally lost to Orochimaru.


A draw is better then how Oro would do.

And he lost to Oro because Oro was lucky enough for his sword to be placed nearby, otherwise he would have died


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## Sufex (May 24, 2019)

How are kinkanu and giunkaku only 63? Didnt they punk tobirama in life? Think you should give them more respect?

Repped for effort though.


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## ShinAkuma (May 24, 2019)

This list isn't awful. I have seen WORSE LISTS OUT THERE

*coughTemari/Minatocough*

@WorldsStrongest where you at?


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Sufex said:


> How are kinkanu and giunkaku only 63? Didnt they punk tobirama in life? Think you should give them more respect?
> 
> Repped for effort though.


Individually they are at that ranking.

And I don’t subscribe to the idea that match up doesn’t matter


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## Serene Grace (May 24, 2019)

This was horrible but i was actually expecting worse tbh


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## zaddyxx22 (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is my ranking of the top 100 Naruto characters based on shown abilities and the portrayal of this abilities; *overall portrayal is not accounted for.*
> 
> If you think I’m missing someone in the Top 100 let me know. I fully expect this to rustle jimmies on some placements but keep the above bold in mind and I’m more then willing to discuss any placement in a civil manner, everyone else will be ignored
> 
> ...


exsqueeze me?


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## WorldsStrongest (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Momoshiki (3rd Eye)
> 
> Kaguya


Off to a bad start


Turrin said:


> Madara (3rd Eye)
> 
> Naruto (Adult) / Jigen?
> 
> ...


The guy whos equal to Hagoromo for all intents and purposes below a guy who was seriously pressured by kids with half of Hagoromos power

And below said individual halves

Yikes


Turrin said:


> *Toneri*
> 
> Naruto VoTE 2 / Asura?
> 
> Sasuke VoTe 2 / Indra?


Toneri above Rikudo Naruto when he got lolstomped on by just Toad SM KCM Naruto

Oof


Turrin said:


> Madara 1 Rinnegan
> 
> Naruto SPSM
> 
> Sasuke Sharinnegab


Madara above the guys who both quite LITERALLY cut him in half individually...Huh...Sasuek who did so to an even stronger version of Madara


Turrin said:


> Madara SM Rinnegan
> 
> Obito Juubi Jin


 


Turrin said:


> CS EMS Sasuke
> 
> EMS Sasuke Choke Tome


Wouldnt have these as separate placements, either way the difference is incremental at best 

Sasuek on his own power outperforms his CS amped self regardless upon attaining peak EMS mastery at the tail end of the Juubito fight


Turrin said:


> *Adult Gaara*
> 
> Delta
> 
> ...


> Gaara above Delta
> Gaara, Chojuro and Kuro above Rinnegan Obito with 6 Biju AND above SM Kabuto with his Edo army




Turrin said:


> Edo Minato BM


BM Minato about 20 names lower than BSM Naruto....

Yeah ok


Turrin said:


> Adult Obito MS
> 
> Naruto BM


 


Turrin said:


> Itachi Edo
> 
> Naruto KCM
> 
> ...


Itachi above 3 guys who can assblast him 6 ways from sunday...Yeah sure


Turrin said:


> Hanzo Edo
> 
> Jiraiya
> 
> Itachi Sick


Hanzo, the version of the guy who lost to Mifune no less, above Itachi and Jiraiya???

Dafuq


Turrin said:


> Hiruzen Old
> 
> Orochimaru w/ P1 Edos


Hiruzen, who had to kill himself just to best a massively nerfed Hashi and Tobi, and who DIDNt beat Oro in their 1v1, above oro and his Edos




Turrin said:


> Sakura WA
> 
> Tsunade
> 
> Sandaime Raikage


Sakura and Tsunade above a guy they CANNOT HURT and CANNOT REACT TO and CANT TAKE A SINGLE HIT FROM




Turrin said:


> Naruto Post Senjutsu Training
> 
> Hebi Sasuke
> 
> ...


Wheelchair Gai above the Raikage...

SM Naruto comparable to Hebi Sasuke...




Turrin said:


> Hyuuga Haishi
> 
> Darui WA
> 
> ...


Fucking Hiashi above half of the Akatsuki roster and 2 Kages


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## Artistwannabe (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Interested in your opinion @Shark and @UchihaX28, and other *vets*


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## WorldsStrongest (May 24, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> @WorldsStrongest where you at?





WorldsStrongest said:


> Off to a bad start
> 
> The guy whos equal to Hagoromo for all intents and purposes below a guy who was seriously pressured by kids with half of Hagoromos power
> 
> ...


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## Sufex (May 24, 2019)

You have to admit it though, Turrin knows how to make attention grabbing threads. I predict another 10+ pages


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## ShinAkuma (May 24, 2019)

Sufex said:


> You have to admit it though, Turrin knows how to make attention grabbing threads. I predict another 10+ pages




The man is a FUCKING LEGEND


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## Trojan (May 24, 2019)

I wonder if this list is influenced by that same poster from the unknown forum that he was hanging out with....


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## Omote (May 24, 2019)

Wheelchair Gai solos the Sannin


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## ShinAkuma (May 24, 2019)

Omote said:


> Wheelchair Gai solos the Sannin



But not Hidan


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## Trojan (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Madara Edo
> 
> BSM Naruto
> 
> ...




I find Uchiha Shin is way too low in the ranking. Why is it Kurotsuchi & Adult Chojuro too high for hitting Kinshiki
but Uchiha Shin-sama who took on both Rinnegan Sasuke & RM Naruto on his own is way lower than them? 

I find this offensive.


And where the hell is Himawari? She defeated Naruto with one finger. None of the fodders you listed ever managed such a feat.
why is she not top 100?


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## ShinAkuma (May 24, 2019)

This thread is already in *Hall of Fame* territory boys.


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## Sufex (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I fully expect this to rustle jimmies on some placements


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2019)

I don't even know where to start.


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## Sufex (May 24, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't even know where to start.


Start with Chojuro ..... above BM Minato, BM Naruto, Rinnegan Obito and SM Kabuto w/Edo Tensei ....


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Off to a bad start
> 
> The guy whos equal to Hagoromo for all intents and purposes below a guy who was seriously pressured by kids with half of Hagoromos power
> 
> ...



1. No argument as to why Momoshiki shouldn’t be there, so point ignored

2. Hamura was equal to Hagaromo before he got the Juubi

3. A Naruto who has the other half of the Kyuubi and years more training

4.  Madara was double teamed by Naruto and ; so yeah he’s above them individually 

5. Gaara stopped the movements of someone stronger then delta and delta can absorb his attacks

6. Boruto Gokage handled enemies well above BM Naruto and Rinnegan Obito in Kinshiki, so yeah...

7. BM Minato much lower then someone who combines BM and SM yeah seems legit 

8. You underrating Itachi isn’t my problem; you can present an argument if you want

9. Hanzo was a mistake already edit to change his placement 

10. Already explained the Hiruzen one see my previous posts

11. Poison 

12. Not wheel chair guy...

13. Yup, deal with iT

14. Yeah he can beat them so deal with it


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Start with Chojuro ..... above BM Minato, BM Naruto, Rinnegan Obito and SM Kabuto w/Edo Tensei ....


They fought someone way above those characters competently what’s their to start with?

I mean do you think Kinshiki is weaker then those charters?


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## Azula (May 24, 2019)

I hate to bring up the same topic every thread but... Tobirama above BM Minato? Why?  Even with your logic it shouldn't be possible. 

Gaara and Rasa are too far apart when they were equals. They should be right next to each other. Gaara isn't above Jiraiya.

What does reasonable amount of Edos mean for Kabuto?

Hebi should not be above Raikage.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Azula said:


> I hate to bring up the same topic every thread but... Tobirama above BM Minato? Why?  Even with your logic it shouldn't be possible.
> 
> Gaara and Rasa are too far apart when they were equals. They should be right next to each other. Gaara isn't above Jiraiya.
> 
> ...


Why By my logic can’t Tobirama be above him?

In what world was Gaara equal to Rasa lol, he fodderized him

I’d gladly debate Gaara vs Jiraiya start a thread and present your argument for why Jiraiya wins

Means like 1-5 like he had against Obito or the 1 he invaded turtle island 

Hebi Sasuke and Ei are very close I can see arguments ether way, but Sasuke is more versatile


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## Siskebabas (May 24, 2019)

How can A4 be below old hiruzen? That diffrence is just massive, hes not reacting to even v1 let alone v2


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## ShinAkuma (May 24, 2019)

This is why the NBD exists boys. This is what the blood, sweat and Chojuro is all about.

Gotta give @Turrin his props. The man knows how to generate traffic!


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> How can A4 be below old hiruzen? That diffrence is just massive, hes not reacting to even v1 let alone v2


Because placement isn’t based on one match up; and actually Hiruzen has solid reaction feats in the war, would have knowledge of Raiton Amor, and has techniques to block line of sight to prevent himself from being blitzd

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> This is why the NBD exists boys. This is what the blood, sweat and Chojuro is all about.
> 
> Gotta give @Turrin his props. The man knows how to generate traffic!


Yes @Narutoforums should pay me


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## Rocky (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> A draw is better then how Oro would do.
> 
> And he lost to Oro because Oro was lucky enough for his sword to be placed nearby, otherwise he would have died


LOOOOL

Reactions: Like 1


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## zaddyxx22 (May 24, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I find Uchiha Shin is way too low in the ranking. Why is it Kurotsuchi & Adult Chojuro too high for hitting Kinshiki
> but *Uchiha Shin-sama who took on both Rinnegan Sasuke & RM Naruto on his own is way lower than them*?
> 
> I find this offensive.
> ...


meaning Sakura who was doing well against Shin should be right under him who is right under adult Naruto and Sasuke because you know, logic


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## Artistwannabe (May 24, 2019)

zaddyxx22 said:


> meaning Sakura who was doing well against Shin should be right under him who is right under adult Naruto and Sasuke because you know, logic


@SakuraLover16 you'd love this...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2019)

Only NF.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Rocky said:


> LOOOOL


Concession accepted

Reactions: Like 1


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## AxelKross (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> What context?


The 5 kage literally get 1 shot as soon as momoshiki fuses.

Base momo and kinshiki arent god tier to me


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## AxelKross (May 24, 2019)

Everybody laughing tho should engage his points. Hes actually correct if u go by feats. This is why it doesnt make sense to me that chojuro is looking so good.


But then again we need to consider the fact its a japanese comic made to entertain and not an powerlevel jerk off for nerds like us


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## Blu-ray (May 24, 2019)

Was confused as to why @Android was seemingly having a mental breakdown over Chojuro in some other threads, but it all makes sense now.


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## ShinAkuma (May 24, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> Was confused as to why @Android was seemingly having a mental breakdown over Chojuro in some other threads, but it all makes sense now.



Android may need a reboot.


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## Siskebabas (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Because placement isn’t based on one match up; and actually Hiruzen has solid reaction feats in the war, would have knowledge of Raiton Amor, and has techniques to block line of sight to prevent himself from being blitzd


But you put againts opponents he cant beat, deidara kisame, not beating those, so match ups are not quite in his favor. And smokescreen can save him for so long and good reactions are not enough vs A4


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## A Optimistic (May 24, 2019)

This thread is hilarious.


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## Trojan (May 24, 2019)

A Optimistic said:


> This thread is hilarious.


your post does not have much emotion to it tho...


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## A Optimistic (May 24, 2019)

Hussain said:


> your post does not have much emotion to it tho...



I got less than 1 GB of data left. I can't afford to use any emotes until my next data cycle starts.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> But you put againts opponents he cant beat, deidara kisame, not beating those, so match ups are not quite in his favor. And smokescreen can save him for so long and good reactions are not enough vs A4


I disagree that he can’t beat them


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> The 5 kage literally get 1 shot as soon as momoshiki fuses.
> 
> Base momo and kinshiki arent god tier to me


Sure but I’m not comparing them to Momshiki Fused level characters.


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## Siskebabas (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I disagree that he can’t beat them


How so? Hes not cornering A4 as he dodges his elementals without problems and smacks his summon monkey if comes to that, also his stamina not helping him either hes just out of his league here. Kisame eats most of his arsenal maybe ha can counter somehow lesser suiton techniques bet when kisame starts to alter battlefield thats where hiruzen goes down. And versus deidara neither he has stamina to fight prolonged battle with him neither he can stop him from taking battle to air and sniping him from there.


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## Trojan (May 24, 2019)

A Optimistic said:


> I got less than 1 GB of data left. I can't afford to use any emotes until my next data cycle starts.





here, I will do it for you

this thread is hillarious.


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## Artistwannabe (May 24, 2019)

Hussain said:


> here, I will do it for you
> 
> this thread is hillarious.


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## Xel (May 24, 2019)

My boi Fuu at number 100 tho


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## Artistwannabe (May 24, 2019)

Suzutsuki said:


> My boi Fuu at number 100 tho


Now you can finally die in peace.


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## BlackHeartedImp (May 24, 2019)

I thought this was going to be a list of your top 100 moments in the NBD and was just going to come in, yell "WHERE'S THE STATEMENT!", mic drop and leave.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (May 24, 2019)

@Turrin 's tier list has claimed it's first kill.

@Android  - Dec 29, 2015 to May 24, 2019

A moment of silence for our fallen brother.


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## Xel (May 24, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> @Turrin 's tier list has claimed it's first kill.
> 
> @Android  - Dec 29, 2015 to May 24, 2019
> 
> A moment of silence for our fallen brother.



I might be next, cause my life is now complete 



Artistwannabe said:


> Now you can finally die in peace.


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## Artistwannabe (May 24, 2019)

Suzutsuki said:


> I might be next, cause my life is now complete


Saying this in advance... but R.I.P


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## Gianfi (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Seems like you just don’t agree with what Boruto showed us; which I can’t help you on.


Seems like 99% of the forum disagrees and can’t help you either

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> Seems like 99% of the forum disagrees and can’t help you either


Let me ask you how do you think characters like BM Naruto would perform against Kinshiki?


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## Turrin (May 24, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> How so? Hes not cornering A4 as he dodges his elementals without problems and smacks his summon monkey if comes to that, also his stamina not helping him either hes just out of his league here. Kisame eats most of his arsenal maybe ha can counter somehow lesser suiton techniques bet when kisame starts to alter battlefield thats where hiruzen goes down. And versus deidara neither he has stamina to fight prolonged battle with him neither he can stop him from taking battle to air and sniping him from there.



1. When it comes to Ei I don’t think he’s easily dodging Elemental blasts of that scope unless he’s Amped, so he can go down before he’s Amped. If he does get Amped, Ei will have a hard time getting through Enma Cage defense; and LOS can be blocked by Hiruzen Fuuton creating a dust cloud. If Ei vision is blocked he can then be hit as he can’t see the attack coming or properly judge it’s scope.

2. Against Kisame Hiruzen will have knowledge of Samehada abilities and he can counter with physical attacks like Enma, Clones, Kage Bushin Shuriken, or Genjutsu. Also I don’t believe Samehada can absorb physical substances, as even HG realm could absorb Gaara Sand, so Doton probably work and Hiruzen can use them offensively and defensively, they are also excellent for countering Kisame main element of choice

3. Hiruzen is Diedara worse nightmare being able to use Raiton and even a Long Range Raiton.


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## AxelKross (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sure but I’m not comparing them to Momshiki Fused level characters.


Do u understand the need of story and how that impacts the manga. Do you think darui and chojuro really improved to levels of jubuto and above? Dude im 14 and even i can tell whats going on. You need to suspend your disbelief at least a little man.


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## AxelKross (May 24, 2019)

Its like you think kishi is going to be 100 percent consistent all the time. Like he has a flowchart of 100+ chracters he consults before drawing every panel. The story and entertainment come first mate

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (May 24, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> Do u understand the need of story and how that impacts the manga. Do you think darui and chojuro really improved to levels of jubuto and above? Dude im 14 and even i can tell whats going on. You need to suspend your disbelief at least a little man.





DeathTheKid said:


> Its like you think kishi is going to be 100 percent consistent all the time. Like he has a flowchart of 100+ chracters he consults before drawing every panel. The story and entertainment come first mate



Was this so hard to understand?


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## WorldsStrongest (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. No argument as to why Momoshiki shouldn’t be there, so point ignored


Conversely, no argument why he is

That which is asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence homeboy 

But since you asked...


Momo has no answer to TSBs
Momo has no answer to Ash Killing Bones
Momo gets done in by Portal hax
Momo has no method of circumventing her immortality 
Momo gets annihilated in the Gravity dimension...Literally everyone does



Turrin said:


> . Hamura was equal to Hagaromo before he got the Juubi


And?

Youre aware this is NOT a counter to what I said right?

Hamura = Base Hag >>> 50% of Hag was my entire fucking point

Yet you have Hamura inferior to 50% Hag because reasons


Turrin said:


> A Naruto who has the other half of the Kyuubi and years more training


The other half of Kurama is literally nothing on the scale anymore

And Training doesnt close the gap that is RSM bud

RSM allowed Naruto to mollywhop a Juubi Jin with casual effort

RSM >>> BSM as a form



Turrin said:


> Madara was double teamed by Naruto and ; so yeah he’s above them individually


No

No he wasnt

Naruto and Sasuke both cut him in half individually

I stated this already

Naruto fights him before Sasuek even arrives and guts him with Yoton, Sasuke cuts Madara in half while Naruto is trying to restrain a Limbo clone

Thats not "double teamed"


Turrin said:


> Gaara stopped the movements of someone stronger then delta


Until he tried LITERALLY AT ALL...Hence teh casual smile on his face

He was fucking with the Kage...Hell he even fucked with Base Naruto for awhile

Wake up


Turrin said:


> Boruto Gokage handled enemies well above BM Naruto and Rinnegan Obito in Kinshiki


> Gokage
> "HANDLED" Kinshiki

Wow


Turrin said:


> BM Minato much lower then someone who combines BM and SM


Except no he isnt

And his feats prove this

Hes legit Narutos peer when they fight Obito

You can invent headcanon SM mulipliers till youre blue in teh face, but teh facts arent on your side.

Teh fact is, SM is diluted as a boost towards late series, and Ill prove it

SM > CS as a power up

BM avatar > Legged Susanoo

KCM Shroud > KN cloak

Yet despite that, EMS Sasuke = BSM Naruto...

Odd aint it?





Turrin said:


> You underrating Itachi isn’t my problem


Youre wanking him is your problem

The fuck does Itachi do against CST or CT or Preta path or Gama Trio busting ST spam or a menagerie of Kaiju he cant kill?

Oh thats right, die screaming

What does Itachi do about 13 KCM Naruto clones all too fast for him to track or deal with, all capable of gutting his Sussanoo with FRS spam each, all capable of SM clones each, and capable of COR barrages and COFRS that harmed teh Juubi??? 

Oh thats right, die screaming

What does Itachi do about a guy his physical equal at worst with better use of Amaterasu, immune to his genjutsu, better stamina and better firepower?

Get destroyed on a  good day


Turrin said:


> Already explained the Hiruzen one see my previous posts


DOnt much care

Wrong regardless

He literally proved on panel hes incapable of killing even a PIS sitricken Oro even with RDS...

Hes not above Oro


Turrin said:


> Poison


Not an argument

Itachi can legit kill him before its a factor 


Turrin said:


> Not wheel chair guy...


End of Shippuden is wheelchair Gai

And even if you mean WA 7G Gai, youre still mad wrong as Gai gets shitblitzed


Turrin said:


> Yup, deal with iT


I dont need to

Its incorrect


Turrin said:


> Yeah he can beat them so deal with it


Hiashi isnt beating teh AKatsuki...Goo djoke tho

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hardcore (May 24, 2019)

only respect this list for putting BM B in a 'kind of' rightful position,

Tobirama and Danzo are lolworthy though


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## kokodeshide (May 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Uchiha Shin
> 
> Nagato Edo


Turrin, I respect your list, first thing I need to discuss with you is this...


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## Eliyua23 (May 25, 2019)

Why is Tsunade far above post Senjutsu Training Naruto


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## Gianfi (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Let me ask you how do you think characters like BM Naruto would perform against Kinshiki?


If they were in Boruto the likes of BM Naruto, Minato Jiraya or Itachi would perform similarly or better against Kinshiki and Momo. Even Boruto was useful against them. PLs in Boruto have been revised


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> If they were in Boruto the likes of BM Naruto, Minato Jiraya or Itachi would perform similarly or better against Kinshiki and Momo. Even Boruto was useful against them. PLs in Boruto have been revised


Perhaps, but until something like that is confirmed (seeing a Naruto era character who hasn’t had time to improve perform similarly), it’s all headcannon. And the original Naruto movie has the Gokage also being able to react to Kinshiki and Momshiki; and this was when Kishimoto was still the main story teller making the idea that Gokage only performed this way due to a shift in writing in Boruto highly unlikely; and much more likely it was always Kishimoto vision for the new Gen Gokage to simply be stronger.

Ether way attacking someone who doesn’t subscribe to this unproven idea of a power scale swap is compeltely unfair

Boruto being useful against them didn’t have to do with PL, it had to do with magic eye Jougan and the nature of his Rasengan.


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> Do u understand the need of story and how that impacts the manga. Do you think darui and chojuro really improved to levels of jubuto and above? Dude im 14 and even i can tell whats going on. You need to suspend your disbelief at least a little man.


The story didn’t require the Gokage fight Momo and Kin. Kishimoto made a choice to have that happen and make them strong enough to do it


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

@WorldsStrongest 

1. TSB can be absorbed. Bones can be dodged, Momshiki had a better speed display keeping up with Adult Naruto, then Kaguya did. All of the rest of your points seem to be about dimension hopping, did you forget Momshiki can dimension hop himself to escape or evade those type of attacks?

2. Indra and Asura were half Hagaromo power with the Juubi, not Base Hashirama. 

3. Whether you don’t think it makes sense that the other half of Kyuubi & training is enough to make Naruto stronger isn’t my problem. Toneri cutting the moon in half and Naruto stopping the same attack is far beyond Shippuden Naruto pay grade, who even when clashing his strongest attack against Sasuke nevercame close to moon  busting levels

4. Naruto gutting him with Youton was before he absorbed the tree

5. Momshiki fucking around doesn’t change the fact that Gaara was able to react to his physical speed while the other Gokage failed, these same Gokage were able to keep up with Kinshiki and Momshiki prior to the fusion, so that’s still an enormous feat.

6. [HASHTAG]#dealwithit[/HASHTAG] 

7. Minato fears prove the opposite. He couldn’t deal with Obito speed at all, BSM Naruto could:



8. Pain doesn’t use CT until it’s a last resort, and he can beat him before it’s used. Regular ST is deflected by Susanoo. And by Kaiju do you mean the Cerberus that Itachi already beat? 

And for Sasuke there is Izanami and how does Sasuke have better stamina then “Edo” Itachi?  Both also have equivalent fire power, with there strongest ability being V4 Susanoo

You also seem to be under the impression that my placements are based on everyone ranked higher being able to beat everyone below them, when that isn’t true, they are also based on their chances against people ranked above them. Itachi with Totsuka, Tskuyomi, and Izanami has better odds against new people above them

9. Due to a sword being luckily placed close by 

10.  Itachi? This was about Raikage vs Sakura WA

11. Yes I mean 7G Gai, and the guy who traded blows with Juubidara gets shitblitzd. Okay man....

12-13. No argument presented so points ignored


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Why is Tsunade far above post Senjutsu Training Naruto


Three spots is far above?


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## Triggenism (May 25, 2019)

Hussain said:


> And where the hell is Himawari? She defeated Naruto with one finger. None of the fodders you listed ever managed such a feat.
> why is she not top 100?



Himawari is the most hardcore of them all for sure. Above even Teuchi, Base Jiraiya, 100% Katsuyu and Toon Deva. She would easily beat the whole verse.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Three spots is far above?



Why is she stronger , the whole point of senjutsu training was to be stronger than her .


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Why is she stronger , the whole point of senjutsu training was to be stronger than her .


The point of Senjutsu training was to defeat Pain, not surpass Tsunade

She’s not stronger, but she is a superior Ninja. Naruto has more raw power but she has more experience, versatility, and wisdom. And as such she has better odds of defeating stronger enemies then her, especially in a team setting.


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## Santoryu (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The point of Senjutsu training was to defeat Pain, not surpass Tsunade
> 
> She’s not stronger, but she is a superior Ninja. Naruto has more raw power *but she has more experience, versatility, and wisdom.* And as such she has better odds of defeating stronger enemies then her, especially in a team setting.



So does MS Kakashi but somehow you've placed him several places below Naruto.


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## Eliyua23 (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The point of Senjutsu training was to defeat Pain, not surpass Tsunade
> 
> She’s not stronger, but she is a superior Ninja. Naruto has more raw power but she has more experience, versatility, and wisdom. And as such she has better odds of defeating stronger enemies then her, especially in a team setting.



Yeah but in order to do that he had to be stronger than Tsunade who could not face Pain , who are the enemies she could defeat that he couldn’t ?


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> So does MS Kakashi but somehow you've placed him several places below Naruto.


Yeah, but the gap in strength is much larger there.


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## Siskebabas (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. When it comes to Ei I don’t think he’s easily dodging Elemental blasts of that scope unless he’s Amped, so he can go down before he’s Amped. If he does get Amped, Ei will have a hard time getting through Enma Cage defense; and LOS can be blocked by Hiruzen Fuuton creating a dust cloud. If Ei vision is blocked he can then be hit as he can’t see the attack coming or properly judge it’s scope.
> 
> 2. Against Kisame Hiruzen will have knowledge of Samehada abilities and he can counter with physical attacks like Enma, Clones, Kage Bushin Shuriken, or Genjutsu. Also I don’t believe Samehada can absorb physical substances, as even HG realm could absorb Gaara Sand, so Doton probably work and Hiruzen can use them offensively and defensively, they are also excellent for countering Kisame main element of choice
> 
> 3. Hiruzen is Diedara worse nightmare being able to use Raiton and even a Long Range Raiton.


1. How come he is not easily dodging it when speed disparity is just massive, dude is in his prime, specifically trained for speed and has raiton armor to boot vs old man who can barely make few shadow clones. And you're saying as if having fuuton means doom to a4, even if he somehow manages to disable raiton armor he still not getting through his natural durability let alone finishing off a4 for good, its out of his league to accomplish such feats.
2. His ennma bunshins or shurikens aint doing shit, dude took on blow from v2 bee and survived and hiruzen has nothing close to such striking power. As i've said having doton doesnt mean that you just automatically counter kisames suitons at best his stopping his lesser one, others huge scale techniques are above his paygrade. Well its difficult to say what can exatcly samehada absord and what it cannot, as sand its not created via chakra its just being manipulated by it. 
3. Having long ranged jutsu is not enough, as sasuke a superior fighter needed sharingan cs2 to accomplish taking down deidara. And still fight drained sasuke heavily, as deidara is quite adapt at cqc too, i could see hiruzen maybe pulling this one off, but would bet my money on deidara.


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah but in order to do that he had to be stronger than Tsunade who could not face Pain , who are the enemies she could defeat that he couldn’t ?


Why did he need to be stronger then Tsunade to face Pain. Tsunade also faced Pain and defended the entire village against Chaotic Shinra Tensei, which Naruto wouldn’t be able to do dick against. 

Like wise Tsunade also stood against Madara. Put Naruto in place of Tsunade against Madara and the Gokage wouldn’t get past the 25 Susanoo or survive Madara final attack, as he could not offer the same benefits to the team. 

Naruto did better against Pain due to knowledge and circumstance; nothing more. 

As far as who Tsunade can beat that Naruto can’t. Well if you look at someone like Hebi Sasuke, while Naruto can and would likely beat him, he could loose to Kirin, while Sasuke couldn’t do anything to Tsunade due to Byakugo. Naruto could also get blitz by Gai, but Tsunade would survive that. I also don’t think Naruto can damage Ei3 or Gin/Kin enough to win while they can damage him, but Tsunade can survive all their shit, so her chances of winning are better. And so on


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> 1. How come he is not easily dodging it when speed disparity is just massive, dude is in his prime, specifically trained for speed and has raiton armor to boot vs old man who can barely make few shadow clones. And you're saying as if having fuuton means doom to a4, even if he somehow manages to disable raiton armor he still not getting through his natural durability let alone finishing off a4 for good, its out of his league to accomplish such feats.
> 2. His ennma bunshins or shurikens aint doing shit, dude took on blow from v2 bee and survived and hiruzen has nothing close to such striking power. As i've said having doton doesnt mean that you just automatically counter kisames suitons at best his stopping his lesser one, others huge scale techniques are above his paygrade. Well its difficult to say what can exatcly samehada absord and what it cannot, as sand its not created via chakra its just being manipulated by it.
> 3. Having long ranged jutsu is not enough, as sasuke a superior fighter needed sharingan cs2 to accomplish taking down deidara. And still fight drained sasuke heavily, as deidara is quite adapt at cqc too, i could see hiruzen maybe pulling this one off, but would bet my money on deidara.


1. I told you Hiruzen can block LOS to prevent him from being able to evade. And once RNY is down Hiruzen own Raiton can kill him

2. He survived V2 Bs attack due to absorbing enough Bijuu chakra to regenerate which he doesn’t have here. Why do you say they are above his pay grade? Hiruzen has demonstrated high level doton without even needing to use a doton source, using one he can make them even larger

3. Sasuke didn’t have a long range technique, that’s why it was so difficult for him


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## Siskebabas (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I told you Hiruzen can block LOS to prevent him from being able to evade. And once RNY is down Hiruzen own Raiton can kill him
> 
> 2. He survived V2 Bs attack due to absorbing enough Bijuu chakra to regenerate which he doesn’t have here. Why do you say they are above his pay grade? Hiruzen has demonstrated high level doton without even needing to use a doton source, using one he can make them even larger
> 
> 3. Sasuke didn’t have a long range technique, that’s why it was so difficult for him


1. What? What kind of raiton does hiruzen posess to kill a4? Dude took direct hit from chidori which is specialised for piercing and assasination and that did jack shit to him. You have los blockers as some magic which counters everything, with what exatcly does he block his line of sight, how does he even follow a4, you're giving some magical feats to hiruzen.
2. Why cant Kisame regenerate on his own? He shits lakes without breaking sweat at only 30%, he should be able to regenerate maybe not that level as versus B. As i've said he can stop lesser suitons, but water dome is way way above his paygrade.
3. Having long range is not automatic counter to deidara, as he is slippery as fuck, gaara is long range fighter, but was tough as hell as hell to catch him even with his personal sand, furthermore sand attacks are persistant and not linear. Sasuke also had superb wired shuriken tricks which are boosted by sharingan and having mid range jutsus which can he also extend by using his wings as somewhat air mobility.


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## Eliyua23 (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why did he need to be stronger then Tsunade to face Pain. Tsunade also faced Pain and defended the entire village against Chaotic Shinra Tensei, which Naruto wouldn’t be able to do dick against.
> 
> Like wise Tsunade also stood against Madara. Put Naruto in place of Tsunade against Madara and the Gokage wouldn’t get past the 25 Susanoo or survive Madara final attack, as he could not offer the same benefits to the team.
> 
> ...



Naruto defeated E3 with SM & Gai was told not to interfere in the battle against Pain


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## Sapherosth (May 25, 2019)

Good laugh

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why did he need to be stronger then Tsunade to face Pain. Tsunade also faced Pain and defended the entire village against Chaotic Shinra Tensei, which Naruto wouldn’t be able to do dick against.
> 
> Like wise Tsunade also stood against Madara. Put Naruto in place of Tsunade against Madara and the Gokage wouldn’t get past the 25 Susanoo or survive Madara final attack, as he could not offer the same benefits to the team.
> 
> ...



Naruto defeated E3 with SM & Gai was told not to interfere in the battle against Pain


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Naruto defeated E3 with SM & Gai was told not to interfere in the battle against Pain


He beat Ei3 due to knowledge which he doesn’t have here. 

Gai would have been useless against Pain due to Shinra Tensei; doesn’t mean he’s useless against Naruto

Match up matters heavily


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> 1. What? What kind of raiton does hiruzen posess to kill a4? Dude took direct hit from chidori which is specialised for piercing and assasination and that did jack shit to him. You have los blockers as some magic which counters everything, with what exatcly does he block his line of sight, how does he even follow a4, you're giving some magical feats to hiruzen.
> 2. Why cant Kisame regenerate on his own? He shits lakes without breaking sweat at only 30%, he should be able to regenerate maybe not that level as versus B. As i've said he can stop lesser suitons, but water dome is way way above his paygrade.
> 3. Having long range is not automatic counter to deidara, as he is slippery as fuck, gaara is long range fighter, but was tough as hell as hell to catch him even with his personal sand, furthermore sand attacks are persistant and not linear. Sasuke also had superb wired shuriken tricks which are boosted by sharingan and having mid range jutsus which can he also extend by using his wings as somewhat air mobility.


1. He took a hit from Chidori with his Raiton Amor on; we’re  talking about Ei with his armor down.

I told you how he blocks LoS by creating a dust cloud with his Fuuton. And we’ve seen Hiruzen can detect enemies while blind with his sense of smell, so he’d do that to land hits on Ei

2. Because he can’t. We saw he couldn’t just regenerate from the damage Gai did to him. He needs to absorb extra chakra to do so 

3. Deidara is tough to catch when he’s using his C1 mounts. He isn’t tough to catch when using C2.


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## Eliyua23 (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He beat Ei3 due to knowledge which he doesn’t have here.
> 
> Gai would have been useless against Pain due to Shinra Tensei; doesn’t mean he’s useless against Naruto
> 
> Match up matters heavily



He can still properly react to his speed though 

Gai would also be useless against Naruto


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 25, 2019)

Tobirama > Eī (V2) by any modicum shape or form would be a flat out g_i_bberish like joke.

Sauce's Sky Sword bypassed 10T Madara JJ physicality inclusive all variegated defensive maneuvers that exists in NV sans RnY's Shroud, + speed-wise, he sh_i_ts profilerating a trillion abstract afterimages during the course of battle.

Tobirama being a speedster comparable to Hashirama, Minato, Hiruzen, Madara, necessitates him reproduce aforementioned trait in regards to speed granted the extent of it's reflexive velocities are fundamentally unknown - his speed rival Minato - being virtually vastly 88X inferior on speed terms (DBIV alludes that he ~ _RnY V1_ by speed _Hiraishin V2 _inclusive)

Gai's 8G, comparison, would flat out bypass that realm of speed gap, granted he explicitly generated speed imagery on inferior Modes.

Night Moth Ryū sublimates like 0 imagery - being the fastest attack - strains S/T - however, indicating the stratospheric speed gap disparity.

Anything other (than aforementioned) would be absolute r_u_b_b_ish fan_b_oying like clinically proven.


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> He can still properly react to his speed though
> 
> Gai would also be useless against Naruto


Being able to react to his speed just means that it will be a drawn out fight; he still doesn’t have a means to down Ei3; is highly susceptible to being killed himself when he reverts to Base; and will be outlasted by Ei3. So how does he win?

I don’t see how 6-7 Gate would be useless against Naruto. Naruto doesn’t have an undetectable AOE like ST then can one shot Gai easily. That’s not to say Naruto can’t win, but Gai could also win, while his entire style is fucked by Shinra Tensej


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Sage light said:


> Tobirama > Eī (V2) by any modicum shape or form would be a flat out g_i_bberish like joke.
> 
> Sauce's Sky Sword bypassed 10T Madara JJ physicality inclusive all variegated defensive maneuvers that exists in NV sans RnY's Shroud, + speed-wise, he sh_i_ts profilerating a trillion abstract afterimages during the course of battle.
> 
> ...


Tobirama outperforms KCM Minato who is fat faster then Base Minato who blitzd Ei. Pretty obvious Tobirama is way above Ei


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 25, 2019)

Lets not start with this KCM Minato galactic increment speed wise bullshit.

No physicality incremented mentioned, stated, proven or outright implied, makes sense as that's Yin & not Yang thematically associated by physicality, lifeforce, so on.

Minato incremented Hiraishin, pioneered V2, flat out stated to be >>> Tobirama, in terms of Hiraishin speed.



+ Speed limits are blatantly implied, Minato's faster variant is straight up shitted  by Eī V1 by DB, Manga affirmation.

Get the fanboying outta here.

Tobirama's definitely vastly superior physically. Doesn't mean he's superior to the fastest man who's like 2X faster than his variant of his fastest attack+speed based skillset maneuver.

Only entertained this cause you're like one of the few who isn't like 1000% retarded when it comes to debating speed.

Tobirama definitely shits on Minato physically that's uncontested fact, V2 Ei?

Lets not even go there.


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Sage light said:


> Lets not start with this KCM Minato galactic increment speed wise bullshit.
> 
> No physicality incremented mentioned, stated, proven or outright implied, makes sense as that's Yin & not Yang thematically associated by physicality, lifeforce, so on.
> 
> ...


Yes except the countless chapters devoted to establishing that Bijuu chakra increases speed and specifically the KCM form does drastically.

And literally nothing in that page says Minato is faster

So until you move past those two fallacies I can’t take this conversation further


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## Santoryu (May 25, 2019)

Sage light said:


> Lets not start with this KCM Minato galactic increment speed wise bullshit.
> 
> No physicality incremented mentioned, stated, proven or outright implied, makes sense as that's Yin & not Yang thematically associated by physicality, lifeforce, so on.
> 
> ...




Your posting style has shifted dramatically.
I recognise this posting style.

How you've fallen, Sage!!!


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## Santoryu (May 25, 2019)

I am the new Sage.


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## MaruUchiha (May 25, 2019)

We're getting a debate between the 2 legendary sages?? We don't deserve this, we're not worthy


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## Rocky (May 25, 2019)

I think it might be time to re-retire from the Battledome.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 25, 2019)

Sage light said:


> Lets not start with this KCM Minato galactic increment speed wise bullshit.
> 
> No physicality incremented mentioned, stated, proven or outright implied, makes sense as that's Yin & not Yang thematically associated by physicality, lifeforce, so on.
> 
> ...




For a second I thought you were @Santoryu tbh. 
I was thinking "lol, what happened to Santoryu to have gone full retard-mode "
then I looked closer to the name, and I was like "oh, it's him....moving on" lol


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## AxelKross (May 25, 2019)

Funny times when a 12 year-old who just read the manga probaly has more understanding than a dude that has been discussing it for 10 year's


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## Android (May 25, 2019)

@Turrin 

I'm going to make you feel my wrath ...


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## Siskebabas (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. He took a hit from Chidori with his Raiton Amor on; we’re  talking about Ei with his armor down.
> 
> I told you how he blocks LoS by creating a dust cloud with his Fuuton. And we’ve seen Hiruzen can detect enemies while blind with his sense of smell, so he’d do that to land hits on Ei
> 
> ...


1. You're saying like hes some fodder without armor on, a4 was directly compared to his father as he inherited his iron body, proven by teleportation which did no damage to him same as his fasther. You're arguing that characted who is much much slower can land hits to a4 of all people, what about a4, hiruzen would literally get one shotted by one of his strike, he could barely take orochimaru in hold age and you're arguing he takes down brute A4, just not happening.
2. But he did not had samehada, its his weapon who converts chakra to stamina, not himself. 
3. Deidara while being without arms evaded team gai and managed to trick kakashi with Naruto, he is in no way or form easy to pin down.


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## Siskebabas (May 25, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> Funny times when a 12 year-old who just read the manga probaly has more understanding than a dude that has been discussing it for 10 year's


I'm sure i've seen somewhere you claiming that you're 14 and now you're 12, does your age decreases with days? Do we have another case of Benjamin Button?


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## AxelKross (May 25, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> I'm sure i've seen somewhere you claiming that you're 14 and now you're 12, does your age decreases with days? Do we have another case of Benjamin Button?


You need to clean your glasses old timer I never said the 12 year old was me mate. 12 year olds are much more annoying.


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## Eliyua23 (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Being able to react to his speed just means that it will be a drawn out fight; he still doesn’t have a means to down Ei3; is highly susceptible to being killed himself when he reverts to Base; and will be outlasted by Ei3. So how does he win?
> 
> I don’t see how 6-7 Gate would be useless against Naruto. Naruto doesn’t have an undetectable AOE like ST then can one shot Gai easily. That’s not to say Naruto can’t win, but Gai could also win, while his entire style is fucked by Shinra Tensej



You forget E3 was helped out tremendously by being an Edo Tensei and Naruto was only reduced to one clone , that was a fraction of his power facing the Raikage

It’s useless because he’s still facing the best sensor in the game straight up unless you are moving at S/T speeds Naruto is a nightmare for CQC types .


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## Android (May 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> stop complaining or offer a counter point


.........

How can I offer a counter argument when you basically annihilated my remaining brain cells ? Because God dammit man I feel dumber than ever.

Chojuro .... This fucking guy wielding a sword is a top tier now ? Above BM Minato ? And Nagato ?

What happened to common sense ?

So just because this mofo did what he did against Kinshiki (even tho he got his chest sliced and was going to get killed) is now stronger than most top tier characters ?

So now I can comfortably say Boruto solos your boy Hashirama with fucking zero difficulty based on what he did to Momoshiki ...

Right ?


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## Trojan (May 25, 2019)

Android said:


> So now I can comfortably say Boruto solos your boy Hashirama with fucking zero difficulty based on what he did to Momoshiki ...
> 
> Right ?


I am fairly sure if you put Tobirama instead of Hashirama, he would have felt a far greater pain. 
I think you have missed the heart there...


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Android said:


> .........
> 
> How can I offer a counter argument when you basically annihilated my remaining brain cells ? Because God dammit man I feel dumber than ever.
> 
> ...


I thought you left the forum?

Yeah pretty much the guy reacted to a faster character then BM Naruto and sealed the movements of a stronger character. 

Boruto once he can use the Jogan properly probably will have a chance against Hashirama or higher


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> You forget E3 was helped out tremendously by being an Edo Tensei and Naruto was only reduced to one clone , that was a fraction of his power facing the Raikage
> 
> It’s useless because he’s still facing the best sensor in the game straight up unless you are moving at S/T speeds Naruto is a nightmare for CQC types .


His highest power move is FRS which isn’t enough. So whether it’s a clone or not how does he win?

Gai moves at higher then ST speeds; he did better against Madara then KCM Minato did with FTG


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## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> 1. You're saying like hes some fodder without armor on, a4 was directly compared to his father as he inherited his iron body, proven by teleportation which did no damage to him same as his fasther. You're arguing that characted who is much much slower can land hits to a4 of all people, what about a4, hiruzen would literally get one shotted by one of his strike, he could barely take orochimaru in hold age and you're arguing he takes down brute A4, just not happening.
> 2. But he did not had samehada, its his weapon who converts chakra to stamina, not himself.
> 3. Deidara while being without arms evaded team gai and managed to trick kakashi with Naruto, he is in no way or form easy to pin down.


1. Are you saying Hiruzen elemental Jutsu which countered Shin Suusenjus are fodder? And I explained several times now how he can hit him, address how Ei can avoid an attack precisely without Los or concede the point 

2. Yes it converts chakra it absorbs from other people to stamina...

3. He was able to do that because KN went berserk and because Kakashi didn’t know he could diffuse his bombs with Raiton. Against the Ambush squad who had this knowledge he got torn apart


----------



## Turrin (May 25, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> Funny times when a 12 year-old who just read the manga probaly has more understanding than a dude that has been discussing it for 10 year's


Come back to me in 10 years when you learn proper argumentation youngster


----------



## Kisame (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is my ranking of the top 100 Naruto characters based on shown abilities and the portrayal of this abilities; *overall portrayal is not accounted for.*


Can you specify what this means? So if a character has little panel time and little portrayal for his techniques (for example we don't know much about what or how he fights) yet his overall level is portrayed as above X you wouldn't count that? And what about statements? Especially statements of direct inferiority/equality/superiority?


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## WorldsStrongest (May 26, 2019)

The real fucking question is why we all humored this nonsense for 7 pages already...

We must all be masochists at heart

I can think of no other reasoning for why wed come back to this shit after getting like 30 names deep (TOPS) into his list, slapping an "optimistic" on the OP, and then memeing once and leaving.


----------



## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I am fairly sure if you put Tobirama instead of Hashirama, he would have felt a far greater pain.
> I think you have missed the heart there...


Not really, he loves Hashi as much as Tobi. In his eyes Hashirama is on the same level as RSM Naruto, saying Naruto has nothing to match Hashi's arsenal


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes except the countless chapters devoted to establishing that Bijuu chakra increases speed and specifically the KCM form does drastically.
> 
> And literally nothing in that page says Minato is faster
> 
> So until you move past those two fallacies I can’t take this conversation further



What ?

Biju Chakra's _does_ increment speed, doesn't mean the whole thing _doesn't_ possess a _facet _geared to that exact increment of speed. Please learn that differentiation before we continue.

Yin doesn't & never'll attribute an aspect faciliated via Yang, and the fact that the only Chakra Mode that does attribute that aspect would be Yang, you gotta prove otherwise. Like, 0 reason to think ET Minato's an drastically incremented, upgraded incarnation when there's like 0 reason to even begin arguing so not to mention the fact there's like literally 0 speed feat implying that Minato's KCM Yin incarnation flat out supercedes Pre-WA Alive Minato, on any facet of speed physically.

Lmao..... what? Yea it does. Tobirama's flat out inferior to Minato in terms of Hiraishin - the latter being explicitly implied, not to mention flat out stated to possess parity w/ Eī V1 like you've seen on Manga & on dat bottom-left panel. Not debateable.

INB4 Tobirama's physically faster than his fastest attack technique. Let's presume that's true for a sec (it's not, not even close, but let's assume).

How does that affect Minato in any way shape or form or elevate him on Ei's speed plane? Cause he sure as hell isn't faster than a S/T teleportation that's faster than his own variant of teleportation that he's stratospherically unlikely to be faster than, we're assuming he's for argument sake inspite of him being not not to mention the fact you can't even begin to prove otherwise as there's like literally 0 relevant, _direct_ or _indirect_, _implied_/remotely _alluded_, comparison to go by or work with.

Yea, talking strictly regarding Hiraishin, not _physically _as it's like 1000% clinically proven that Tobirama > Minato _physically._


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 26, 2019)

Well this one is a bit dissapointment. But hurray for effort .


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Shark said:


> Can you specify what this means? So if a character has little panel time and little portrayal for his techniques (for example we don't know much about what or how he fights) yet his overall level is portrayed as above X you wouldn't count that? And what about statements? Especially statements of direct inferiority/equality/superiority?


One example is if Prime Hanzo is suppose to be stronger then Jiraiya based on portrayal, but he lacks any tangible feats I didn’t place him


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Sage light said:


> What ?
> 
> Biju Chakra's _does_ increment speed, doesn't mean the whole thing _doesn't_ possess a _facet _geared to that exact increment of speed. Please learn that differentiation before we continue.
> 
> ...


I guess Naruto speed at the end of the manga wasn’t augmented because he only had the Yin half of Kurama....

Being physically faster means being able to react quicker and activate FTG faster and attack faster after activating FTG, since Minato already blitz Ei with inferior reactions and striking speed Tobirama would do so easily


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Not really, he loves Hashi as much as Tobi. In his eyes Hashirama is on the same level as RSM Naruto, *saying Naruto has nothing to match Hashi's arsenal *


Show me we’re I said that, I challenge you..  you have 24 hours to admit your lying or I block your with the other liars

Equally ridiculous considering I placed Naruto higher then Hashirama here


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Show me we’re I said that, I challenge you..  you have 24 hours to admit your lying or I block your with the other liars
> 
> Equally ridiculous considering I placed Naruto higher then Hashirama here


I showed you, again and again. This is the *SECOND* time you've asked me for proof.


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## Cichy (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> *Tobirama*
> 
> *Edo Minato BM*
> 
> ...



Is that a joke? Or for some reason you really think Tobirama is superior to Minato even in Bijuu Mode?


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Show me we’re I said that, I challenge you..  you have 24 hours to admit your lying or I block your with the other liars
> 
> Equally ridiculous considering I placed Naruto higher then Hashirama here



AND SUPRISE SUPRISE, your response was toooooo these images!

*Spoiler*: __ 








I like how you call me a liar though. Especially when you are straight up denying canon with this ridiculous claim you've made. In the next thread, I even showed you the meteors Naruto busted compared to your precious Shinsu Senju. You even blocked Zembie for "lying" when he was pretty much right. The feats don't add up, your precious Tsuchikage and Chojuro got rekt by fodder, and yet you still insist on scaling them to top-tier.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (May 26, 2019)

the Chojuro memes were funny while they lasted


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## Zembie (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> AND SUPRISE SUPRISE, your response was toooooo these images!
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Can confirm, since I was the one actually "arguing" with Turrin about this.


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## Santoryu (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Show me we’re I said that, I challenge you..  *you have 24 hours to admit your lying or I block your with the other liars*
> 
> Equally ridiculous considering I placed Naruto higher then Hashirama here



How courteous of you. Giving him 24 hours of notice. 

Not "Where is the statement" level though.


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## Trojan (May 26, 2019)

how can someone fall so deep... 
I would honestly like to think his account is hacked, or the "real" turrin gave it to someone else.


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## Eliyua23 (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> His highest power move is FRS which isn’t enough. So whether it’s a clone or not how does he win?
> 
> Gai moves at higher then ST speeds; he did better against Madara then KCM Minato did with FTG



Only reason E3 wasn’t gravely injures is due to being an Edo 

Yeah and Gai also couldn’t touch Obito while Minato could so yeah .


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Hussain said:


> how can someone fall so deep...
> I would honestly like to think his account is hacked, or the "real" turrin gave it to someone else.


Or something drastically changed this man, forever.


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## Zembie (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> AND SUPRISE SUPRISE, your response was toooooo these images!
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


I am pretty sure he blocked me only cuz I refused to leave his thread


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I am pretty sure he blocked me only cuz I refused to leave his thread


 Well that's uhh...interesting...


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> AND SUPRISE SUPRISE, your response was toooooo these images!
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Here is the image btw


Naruto *VAPORIZED MULTIPLE OF THESE *by the way. *WITH ONE OF HIS CASUAL ATTACKS BY THE WAY!*


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> AND SUPRISE SUPRISE, your response was toooooo these images!
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


You are lying or not being able to understand a basic concept. So I’ll give you one more chance saying SS might be able to handle Naruto FRS TBB; isn’t the same as saying none of Naruto Jutsu will be effective against SS, let alone Hashirama.

Naruto has other techniques. In-Fact those techniques I said Hashirama may be able to handle weren’t even Naruto making use of his Kurama avatar let alone Asura avatar.

And before you start lying and saying I said Asura Avatar wouldn’t work ether, don’t even try because I’ve always said Hashirama can’t handle that and even put Naruto above him in this thread with Asura Avatar.

So yeah 24 hours admit your we’re wrong / lying or blocked, I have no patience for people that straight lie


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Cichy said:


> Is that a joke? Or for some reason you really think Tobirama is superior to Minato even in Bijuu Mode?


Yup he’s still superior as hes faster and BM has a time limit


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Only reason E3 wasn’t gravely injures is due to being an Edo
> 
> Yeah and Gai also couldn’t touch Obito while Minato could so yeah .


Proof?

Gai never used 7TH Gate on Obito; we do however have a direct comparison between SM Minato and 7Th Gate Guy against Madara; with Guy performing much better


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You are lying or not being able to understand a basic concept. So I’ll give you one more chance saying SS might be able to handle Naruto FRS TBB; isn’t the same as saying none of Naruto Jutsu will be effective against SS, let alone Hashirama.
> 
> Naruto has other techniques. In-Fact those techniques I said Hashirama may be able to handle weren’t even Naruto making use of his Kurama avatar let alone Asura avatar.
> 
> ...


Oh I'm not lying at all, your "HURR DURR I WAS ONLY PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED" don't work on me.

What I got from your post:
>Hashi blocked Kyuubi TBB with SS
>Naruto's Rasenshuriken are not above that
So by your logic Hashirama should be able to block Naruto's attacks just fine. And this is IGNORING AA even though you did not even address it in the post I took a screenshot of. Nice try though, this is what I got from your post. The only liar right now is you young lad, trying to switch the premise of these words.


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Oh I'm not lying at all, your "HURR DURR I WAS ONLY PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED" don't work on me.
> 
> What I got from your post:
> >Hashi blocked Kyuubi TBB with SS
> ...


Are RSM Naruto TBB FRS his only jutsu?

If the answer is no then your lying it’s that simple

Also @Artistwannabe here’s a quote from that same thread you keep lying and claiming I said RSM Naruto has nothing to defeat Hashirama with in response to Zembie:

“ I’ve also never said I think Hashirama can defeat RSM Naruto; I actually think he looses to RSM Naruto, I just don’t think their is Tier Gap between them or a massive gap where he gets stomped as you keep saying”

But yeah I guess this is when you runaway instead of admitting you were wrong...


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## Sufex (May 26, 2019)




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## Zembie (May 26, 2019)




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## Cichy (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yup he’s still superior as hes faster and BM has a time limit



1. Tobirama himself admitted that in movement speed Minato is superior.
2. Even if you dissagree with the official statement, Minato's sage mode should boost his physical abilities by a lot (similar to Jiraya and Naruto). Not to mention the Bijuu Mode of Edo Minato.
3. Tobirama was killed by Kinkaku and a team of unnamed ninja while Minato was wiping out armies by himself.
4. Minato has more usage for FTG (barrier, Rasen Senkou etc) and overall was hinted to be superior user of the technique.
5. Minato has frog summons - the most useful animal summons you can get - that should include Ma and Pa with their huge knowledge of senjutsu.
6. If anything else fails Minato still has Shiki Fujin and other sealing techniques of Uzumaki.

Not saying Tobirama is weak, but Minato clearly got more hype from the author and better set of abilities.


----------



## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Are RSM Naruto TBB FRS his only jutsu?
> 
> If the answer is no then your lying it’s that simple


Yep of course, you are still massively wrong though. Rasenshuriken is a massive part of Naruto's arsenal, like it or not. *INFACT, THE STRONGEST JUTSU IN NARUTO'S ARSENAL ARE NOT TAILED BEAST BOMBS, BUT RASENSHURIKEN (MORE SO A COMBINATION OF BOTH, WHICH WAS EXACTLY WHAT WAS PICTURED IN ZEMBIE'S POST BTW)*. And those Rasenshuriken wreck SS like it's nothing, here is the scale.

This is the rubble from the meteors Sasuke cut with his Susanoo, which keep in mind Naruto obliterated multiple of these.

Here is your precious Shinsu Senju.
This entire comment you've made is ignoring canon to the next level, go on, drag the words you've already said, you still didn't address the Ashura Avatar in your original post, and now you are falling back as to pretend you've always meant it, or how you've said Hashirama is capable of blocking ANY of the attacks shown in the pictures Zembie provided, since Kurama's TBB were _superior/on the same level_ as these attacks. Right now you are specifically trying to frame me as the liar to save face or whatever the fuck you are trying to do. YOU WERE WRONG, SIMPLE. YOU COULD HAVE SAID YOU PHRASED THIS ARGUMENT WRONG. BUT NO. YOU STILL INSIST ON CALLING ME A LIAR AND "THREATENING TO IGNORE ME". You ignored Zembie simply because you didn't like him, when he said that Cho/Kuro need more feats, you called him a liar. But yet in the fucking anime, which is goddamn canon by the way, both get WRECKED, NOT BEAT, WRECKED, BY FODDER, you can now see how an argument can be made for both sides, right? Call it outlier all you want, using the same logic, I can call the movie's feats outlier and we would both be right.


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## Zembie (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Yep of course, you are still massively wrong though. Rasenshuriken is a massive part of Naruto's arsenal, like it or not. *INFACT, THE STRONGEST JUTSU IN NARUTO'S ARSENAL ARE NOT TAILED BEAST BOMBS, BUT RASENSHURIKEN (MORE SO A COMBINATION OF BOTH, WHICH WAS EXACTLY WHAT WAS PICTURED IN ZEMBIE'S POST BTW)*. And those Rasenshuriken wreck SS like it's nothing, here is the scale.
> 
> This is the rubble from the meteors Sasuke cut with his Susanoo, which keep in mind Naruto obliterated multiple of these.
> 
> ...


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## WorldsStrongest (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> AND SUPRISE SUPRISE, your response was toooooo these images!
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


And @Turrin gets fucking one punched

Yet again


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## Trojan (May 26, 2019)

So bad....


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Yep of course, you are still massively wrong though. Rasenshuriken is a massive part of Naruto's arsenal, like it or not. *INFACT, THE STRONGEST JUTSU IN NARUTO'S ARSENAL ARE NOT TAILED BEAST BOMBS, BUT RASENSHURIKEN (MORE SO A COMBINATION OF BOTH, WHICH WAS EXACTLY WHAT WAS PICTURED IN ZEMBIE'S POST BTW)*. And those Rasenshuriken wreck SS like it's nothing, here is the scale.
> 
> This is the rubble from the meteors Sasuke cut with his Susanoo, which keep in mind Naruto obliterated multiple of these.
> 
> ...


Is TBB FRS the only jutsu Naruto is capable of yes or no..

Answer the question

Whether you think I’m wrong or not about Hashirama ability to defend TBB FRS doesn’t change the fact that I never said none of Naruto Jutsu would be effective against Hashirama

Do you admit this yes or no?

Answer the question

The clock is ticking


----------



## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Is TBB FRS the only jutsu Naruto is capable of yes or no..
> 
> Answer the question


Stop, I told you already.


Artistwannabe said:


> Yep of course


Now instead of trying to circle around my post, actually read it for once, and see where my argument comes from. You saying Naruto's strongest Jutsus (his rasenshuriken variants) can be blocked by Hashirama is exactly what I called you out on. If his strongest jutsu can be effortlessly blocked, how can Naruto's other arsenal compete? You could have just said you phrased it wrong, but no. You still insist on going back and forth about this.


----------



## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> *The clock is ticking*


 Getting me nervous 'round here...


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Stop, I told you already.
> 
> Now instead of trying to circle around my post, actually read it for once, and see where my argument comes from. You saying Naruto's strongest Jutsus (his rasenshuriken variants) can be blocked by Hashirama is exactly what I called you out on. If his strongest jutsu can be effortlessly blocked, how can Naruto's other arsenal compete? You could have just said you phrased it wrong, but no. You still insist on going back and forth about this.


So your saying TBB Rasenshuriken used by RSM Naruto is stronger then Asura Avatar final attack against Sasuke?

Ive already told you in this thread and others I was not talking about Asura Avatar and that SS would loose to Asura Avatar. You then coming into this thread and making the comment that I believe no jutsu Naruto had would work on Hashirama is clearly a lie on your part to try attack my credibility. You know it is, I know it is. Admit it or be ignored


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Also, you are still trying to ignore the fact that you did not adress the Ashura Avatar in your original post.


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So your saying TBB Rasenshuriken used by RSM Naruto is stronger then Asura Avatar final attack against Sasuke?





Artistwannabe said:


> Also, you are still trying to ignore the fact that you did not adress the Ashura Avatar in your original post.


----------



## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> What I got from your post:
> >Hashi blocked Kyuubi TBB with SS
> >Naruto's Rasenshuriken are not above that
> So by your logic Hashirama should be able to block Naruto's attacks just fine. *And this is IGNORING AA even though you did not even address it in the post I took a screenshot of*. Nice try though, this is what I got from your post. The only liar right now is you young lad, trying to switch the premise of these words.


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Also, you are still trying to ignore the fact that you did not adress the Ashura Avatar in your original post.


I have addressed it countless times, that I don’t think Hashirama can win against it. You know this


----------



## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I have addressed it countless times, that I don’t think Hashirama can win against it. You know this


Good, you still did not address this in the post I specifically screenshotted and mentioned. So concession _accepted I guess..._You are wrong about the other stuff as well, but we've went over this in countless threads. Now instead of calling me a liar, maybe say that you phrased it wrong or you forgot, shit like this happens.  Even with this pic of the full Ashura Avatar which Zembie provided:

you still said this:

So I don't think I am the liar here bud.


----------



## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

I'm done with this


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Good, you still did not address this in the post I specifically screenshotted and mentioned. So concession _accepted I guess..._You are wrong about the other stuff as well, but we've went over this in countless threads. Now instead of calling me a liar, maybe say that you phrased it wrong or you forgot, shit like this happens.  Even with this pic of the full Ashura Avatar which Zembie provided:
> 
> you still said this:
> 
> So I don't think I am the liar here bud.


Okay here I’ll explain very clearly why your lying and going on the ignore list in 24 hours. You said in this thread.



Artistwannabe said:


> Not really, he loves Hashi as much as Tobi. In his eyes Hashirama is on the same level as RSM Naruto, saying Naruto has nothing to match Hashi's arsenal



You say here I believe Naruto has nothing to match Hashirama arsenal despite me telling you over a month ago in response to a very similar troll post you made that Naruto has Asura Avatar which Hashirama can’t handle and is therefore weaker then him.




You believing Hashirama also can’t handle TBB FRS he used against Madara and you having your jimmies rustled that I think SS may enable him to survive it due to it countering 12+ P-Susanoo TBB. Is irrelevant to the fact that you lied to intentionally misrepresent my premise above.

So again, man up and admit you were lying and trolling or say high to zembie for me...


----------



## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay here I’ll explain very clearly why your lying and going on the ignore list in 24 hours. You said in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, yes, I forgot this, you tried to do exactly what you are doing right now. You tried to switch your entire premise behind your post the same way you are doing right now, I can also go this route and say that I did not factor the AA. Oh wait, I did.


Artistwannabe said:


> What I got from your post:
> >Hashi blocked Kyuubi TBB with SS
> >Naruto's Rasenshuriken are not above that
> So by your logic Hashirama should be able to block Naruto's attacks just fine. *And this is IGNORING AA even though you did not even address it in the post I took a screenshot of*. Nice try though, this is what I got from your post. The only liar right now is you young lad, trying to switch the premise of these words.


Also, if you think Naruto's AA is the only thing exceeding Hashirama's arsenal, you are beyond help.
I am still waiting for you to explain this:


Also you still did not answer my question on the other thread about Zembie as well


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Oh, yes, I forgot this, you tried to do exactly what you are doing right now. You tried to switch your entire premise behind your post the same way you are doing right now, I can also go this route and say that I did not factor the AA. Oh wait, I did.
> 
> Also, if you think Naruto's AA is the only thing exceeding Hashirama's arsenal, you are beyond help.
> I am still waiting for you to explain this:
> ...


I said from the very beginning that Hashirama can’t beat Naruto; I can link you to posts from that thread if you want where I say that.  So yes your just lying


----------



## Omote (May 26, 2019)

Why can't I make bait threads this good


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I said from the very beginning that Hashirama can’t beat Naruto; I can link you to posts from that thread if you want where I say that.  So yes your just lying


Have I ever, and I mean *EVER* said that you *SAID* Hashirama can beat Naruto? In this thread, I am talking about. Don't take my words out of context.  I am simply quoting this post of yours

And that answer was in response to the pictures zembie provided earlier ITT. Which were these...

*Spoiler*: __ 









What I said is what you implied with this answer of yours Nothing more.


----------



## Trojan (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> to try attack my credibility


> he thinks he has any credibility

ain't that cute?


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Have I ever, and I mean *EVER* said that you *SAID* Hashirama can beat Naruto? In this thread, I am talking about. Don't take my words out of context.  I am simply quoting this post of yours
> 
> And that answer was in response to the pictures zembie provided earlier ITT. Which were these...
> 
> ...


If I really said none of Naruto jutsu can do anything to Hashirama how could I believe Naruto is stronger then him and would beat him is my point? It’s been very clear from day one that I believe Naruto Jutsu can be effective against Hashirama. You have intentionally chosen to take one statement I made out of context to suggest the opposite. Even though I’ve already clarified multiple times to you that I was not referring to Asura Avatar in that comment.

You misunderstanding me the first time is understandable which is why I clarified to you multiple times already what I meant; you continue to say I believe non of Naruto Jutsu work and then fall back on my single statements being misleading despite me clarifying it multiple times is what makes this a lie on your part. 

But here I will give you one last chance, and clarify it again.

When Zembie made that post I didn’t see the pic of Asura Avatar in that list of scans and responded only to FRS TBB, which I do think SS may be able to survive, but don’t think it can take on AA, or they Hashirama can beat Naruto (something I stated like 2 posts later in that thread). And something I’ve been very prolific about on the forums and in this very thread (placing AA Naruto and even Naruto prior to AA above Hashirama).

So here and now admit you misunderstood me somehow this entire time (despite me clarifying more then once) or I’m done, and just going to ignore you


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## Trojan (May 26, 2019)

Welcome to the ignore list @Artistwannabe . We will have a nice time together...


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If I really said none of Naruto jutsu can do anything to Hashirama how could I believe Naruto is stronger then him and would beat him is my point? It’s been very clear from day one that I believe Naruto Jutsu can be effective against Hashirama. You have intentionally chosen to take one statement I made out of context to suggest the opposite. Even though I’ve already clarified multiple times to you that I was not referring to Asura Avatar in that comment.
> 
> You misunderstanding me the first time is understandable which is why I clarified to you multiple times already what I meant; you continue to say I believe non of Naruto Jutsu work and then fall back on my single statements being misleading despite me clarifying it multiple times is what makes this a lie on your part.


Bruh this is literally what your post implied, I told you my reasoning here.


Artistwannabe said:


> What I got from your post:
> >Hashi blocked Kyuubi TBB with SS
> >Naruto's Rasenshuriken are not above that
> So by your logic Hashirama should be able to block Naruto's attacks just fine. *And this is IGNORING AA even though you did not even address it in the post I took a screenshot of*. Nice try though, this is what I got from your post. The only liar right now is you young lad, trying to switch the premise of these words.


Call it misunderstanding or whatever you want, this is what I got from your post. You can't say I am lying when even 3rd parties here assumed my stance because your post assumed my conclusion. "Have I ever, and I mean *EVER* said that you *SAID* Hashirama can beat Naruto?" No, no I did not.  Look at how I did not discuss Naruto's obvious speed advantage and superior physical capabilities, because I was specifically talking about Jutsu arsenal. And those jutsus Zembie presented are Naruto's strongest.


> When Zembie made that post I didn’t see the pic of Asura Avatar in that list of scans and responded only to FRS TBB


Only thing I needed, you admitting you fucked up You are still wrong about the whole Hashirama/Naruto shizz, but I guess that goes without saying...

:jeez That could have been over the moment I mentioned it, yet you insisted on going out of your way to prove I am somehow "lying"
You still haven't shown me how Zembie was lying as well.


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## Zembie (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Bruh this is literally what your post implied, I told you my reasoning here.
> 
> Call it misunderstanding or whatever you want, this is what I got from your post. You can't say I am lying when even 3rd parties here assumed my stance because your post assumed my conclusion. "Have I ever, and I mean *EVER* said that you *SAID* Hashirama can beat Naruto?" No, no I did not.  Look at how I did not discuss Naruto's obvious speed advantage and superior physical capabilities, because I was specifically talking about Jutsu arsenal. And those jutsus Zembie presented are Naruto's strongest.
> 
> ...


Can you like, stop mentioning me please? I don't care about Turrin, I am just here for the memes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (May 26, 2019)




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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Bruh this is literally what your post implied, I told you my reasoning here.
> 
> Call it misunderstanding or whatever you want, this is what I got from your post. You can't say I am lying when even 3rd parties here assumed my stance because your post assumed my conclusion. "Have I ever, and I mean *EVER* said that you *SAID* Hashirama can beat Naruto?" No, no I did not.  Look at how I did not discuss Naruto's obvious speed advantage and superior physical capabilities, because I was specifically talking about Jutsu arsenal. And those jutsus Zembie presented are Naruto's strongest.
> 
> ...


I literally told you that I wasn’t referring to AA a month prior multiple times which is why it’s lying now to pretend like this is the first time we’re having this discussion in order to justifying your troll post previously in this thread.

The fact that you don’t understand that is baffling or trolling. Ether way I don’t have time for it so admit your wrong or like I said meet the ignore list


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I literally told you that I wasn’t referring to AA a month prior multiple times which is why it’s lying now to pretend like this is the first time we’re having this discussion in order to justifying your troll post previously in this thread.


I acknowledged your post about AA though? Here.

I explained to you multiple times how I came to this conclusion from your post, yet you are still not acknowledging any of it. It's like you did not even read my previous post.



Turrin said:


> The fact that you don’t understand that is baffling or trolling


"When Zembie made that post I didn’t see the pic of Asura Avatar in that list of scans and responded only to FRS TBB" You literally admitted you fucked up, what else is there to understand? Why am I wrong when infact, your initial post was wrong to begin with. I told you, you mentioning the AA later changes nothing, my point here still stands:

Maybe instead of trying to threaten me with an ignore, you can just admit your post was wrong (WHICH YOU ALREADY DID) and be done with it.

You are literally going in circles just to save face at this point...


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I acknowledged your post about AA though? Here.
> 
> I explained to you multiple times how I came to this conclusion from your post, yet you are still not acknowledging any of it. It's like you did not even read my previous post.
> 
> ...


You acknowledging it doesn’t chance the fact that you lied in your first post in this thread.

You need to understand that if someone says over a month ago Naruto can beat Hashirama with AA directly to your face and then you come into a thread a month later claiming that same person believes none of Naruto Jutsu work on Hashirama, that’s a lie.

You can’t simply say hey I came to the wrong conclusion based on your post when I told you after that post that AA beats Hashirama

And it’s not a threat it’s a fact. I just don’t have time to bother with liars anymore sorry


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You acknowledging it doesn’t chance the fact that you lied in your first post in this thread.


 
This is what you said, nowhere did you refute the fact that Hashirama negs 99% of Naruto's arsenal.



Turrin said:


> You need to understand that if someone says over a month ago Naruto can beat Hashirama with AA directly to your face and then you come into a thread a month later claiming that same person believes none of Naruto Jutsu work on Hashirama, that’s a lie.


 
Read the yellow, there is a reason I chose to ignore AA, I gave you the benefit of doubt. 



Turrin said:


> And it’s not a threat it’s a fact. I just don’t have time to bother with liars anymore sorry


Nah, you ignore people you don't like. Zembie wasn't lying, yet you still put him in your ignore list.


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## LIBU (May 26, 2019)

Sufex said:


> You have to admit it though, Turrin knows how to make attention grabbing threads. *I predict another 10+ pages*


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## Shazam (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is my ranking of the top 100 Naruto characters based on shown abilities and the portrayal of this abilities; *overall portrayal is not accounted for.*
> 
> If you think I’m missing someone in the Top 100 let me know. I fully expect this to rustle jimmies on some placements but keep the above bold in mind and I’m more then willing to discuss any placement in a civil manner, everyone else will be ignored
> 
> ...



Pretty decent


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## Hardcore (May 26, 2019)

@Artistwannabe 

Maybe you could do the first move and put him first on your ignore list,

no person ignored turrin yet for some reason


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> @Artistwannabe
> 
> Maybe you could do the first move and put him first on your ignore list,
> 
> no person ignored turrin yet for some reason


Nah, seems petty for some reason lol


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## Hardcore (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Nah, seems petty for some reason lol



good, let him hear it


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> This is what you said, nowhere did you refute the fact that Hashirama negs 99% of Naruto's arsenal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the post where I said you lied



Artistwannabe said:


> Not really, he loves Hashi as much as Tobi. In his eyes Hashirama is on the same level as RSM Naruto, *saying Naruto has nothing to match Hashi's arsenal *



Please note that you didn’t say, “Naruto has nothing *except AA* to match Hashi arsenal” or that “*99% of *Naruto arsenal has nothing to match Hashi’s”

You claimed I said Naruto has *nothing* to match Hashirama arsenal despite the fact that I told you point blank a month before that AA defeats Hashirama.

That’s the lie.

While on the topic of lying the fact that I never refute the idea that “that Hashirama negs 99% of Naruto's arsenal” outside of AA is also a lie or at best a gross misrepresentation. I have said this entire time that Hashirama needs SS to have a chance to counter FRS TBB in similar way to how he countered P-Susanoo TBB, which ended up largely destroying SS. So the entire time I’ve been very clear about the fact that Hashirama would have to go all out to just defend FRS TBB. That comparison and stance dates all the way back to the thread that you keep quoting too. And even in this thread I clearly placed Naruto even without AA above Hashirama, a clear indication that I don’t believe Hashirama negs everything else he has.

This is why I’m putting you on my Ignore list because you refused to have a fair dialogue and consistently misrepresent or lie about my actual stance, to try and discredit my points. You know your doing it; or if not you should be aware of it now. So I’m giving you 24 to realize this is what your doing and admit your mistake, if not that’s fine too.


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## Santoryu (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> T So I’m giving you* 24 *to realize this is what your doing and admit your mistake, if not that’s fine too.



24 hours from this post? Either you keep restarting the countdown out of benevolence, or you have lost track of time.


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## Hardcore (May 26, 2019)

@Turrin 



this is something you made some time ago, you believed Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama, yet you placed all versions of Hashirama above Kabuto here, were you wrong or what exactly has changed?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is the post where I said you lied
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I adressed the point about AA here:

I told you I gave you the benefit of doubt about this one. Yes it turned out you addressed it later on, *that I will admit.* So you can have this one. On the same pic, I literally told you on how I came to my conclusion from your previous post here:

So uhh...yeah, I think I went over pretty much everything. I am done here


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> @Turrin
> 
> 
> 
> this is something you made some time ago, you believed Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama, yet you placed all versions of Hashirama above Kabuto here, were you wrong or what exactly has changed?


I never said I believe that, I said I think he should logically be based on his ability; however things aren’t always logical in Naruto.


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I adressed the point about AA here:
> 
> I told you I gave you the benefit of doubt about this one. Yes it turned out you addressed it later on, *that I will admit.* So you can have this one.


So you admit you were lying and or misrepresenting my stance when you said the bold in this post:


Artistwannabe said:


> Not really, he loves Hashi as much as Tobi. In his eyes Hashirama is on the same level as RSM Naruto, *saying Naruto has nothing to match Hashi's arsenal *



Yes or no


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So you admit you were lying and or misrepresenting my stance when you said the bold in this post:
> 
> 
> Yes or no


"I told you I gave you the benefit of doubt about this one. Yes it turned out you addressed it later on, *that I will admit.* So you can have this one." I admit I was wrong when I assumed you did not address the Ashura Avatar, not that I lied or "misrepresented" your post.


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> "I told you I gave you the benefit of doubt about this one. Yes it turned out you addressed it later on, *that I will admit.* So you can have this one." I admit I was wrong when I assumed you did not address the Ashura Avatar, not that I lied or "misrepresented" your post.


If you can’t see how your misrepresented my stance by stating I believe Naruto has no Jutsu that can work on Hashirama, when I clearly said to you directly that there was at least on that would work a month prior to this, I don’t know what else to say.


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If you can’t see how your misrepresented my stance by stating I believe Naruto has no Jutsu that can work on Hashirama, when I clearly said to you directly that there was at least on that would work I don’t know what else to say.


Don't say anything, I did not misrepresent anything, I was just wrong about 1 little fact.
This argument still stands

Yes, I forgot you addressed the Asura avatar later (when confronted about it). That's about it.

Nothing in this post disproves any of my other arguments as well btw.


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## Trojan (May 26, 2019)

how many times are you (both) going to repeat the same post? It was funny the first one million time... 

I suggest posting a direct link to one of your posts (1 post for each) and keep reading it over and over again...


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## Artistwannabe (May 26, 2019)

Hussain said:


> how many times are you (both) going to repeat the same post? It was funny the first one million time...
> 
> I suggest posting a direct link to one of your posts (1 post for each) and keep reading it over and over again...


Yeah I realized I've been going in circles for quite some time. What a tremendous waste of time.


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## Kisame (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is my ranking of the top 100 Naruto characters based on shown abilities and the portrayal of this abilities; *overall portrayal is not accounted for.*
> 
> If you think I’m missing someone in the Top 100 let me know. I fully expect this to rustle jimmies on some placements but keep the above bold in mind and I’m more then willing to discuss any placement in a civil manner, everyone else will be ignored
> 
> ...


Ok I somehow understand how you rank them but I'm not 100% sure, anyway I'll give my thoughts and you can correct me along the way if I missed something.

Why is SM Rinnegan Madara above Juubito? Surely Madara needs Juubi powers to fight on such levels, gaining Juubi should be > Rinnegan. What Edo are included for Kabuto's placement? How do you decide where to rank Danzo w/Koto charged? Does that mean it's already set to go from match start? If so why can't he one-shot some of those above him too? How will Tobirama beat BM Minato? How are there so many characters in between Sick and Healthy Itachi? You don't think Jiraiya can beat Onoki/Muu/Gengetsu? Itachi can't be only one spot above Hiruzen who also shouldn't be above Orochimaru with Edo when he admitted inferiority to him w/o Edo. SM Naruto should be slightly above Jiraiya yet he is several spots below him. How does Hebi Sasuke beat A4? Why are Hiashi and Darui stronger than those Akatsuki below them? Why is Dan rated where he is? Based on what?

I'm also curious about Kisame > Deidara ()

I'm also assuming this list isn't in order 100% since the characters you're ranking are based on performance against different shinobi so one character could be placed above another they'd lose to, right?


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Don't say anything, I did not misrepresent anything, I was just wrong about 1 little fact.
> This argument still stands
> 
> Yes, I forgot you addressed the Asura avatar later (when confronted about it). That's about it.
> ...


You being wrong about that fact is where the lie is.


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## Hardcore (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You being wrong about that fact is where the lie is.



being wrong about a small detail is not equivalent to lying

doing it by purpose is


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## Turrin (May 26, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> being wrong about a small detail is not equivalent to lying
> 
> doing it by purpose is


It actually is if someone already told you, you were wrong.

Its like if someone said Deidara can counter Mokuton with his bombs, and someone was like do you think he can counter all Mokuton, and they said wel some but obviously not SS or the higher ends Mokuton; and then after being told this multiple times, they still say oh X said Deidara can counter every Mokuton tech in existence no diff. It’s lie because the confusion was already cleared up and the party making the claim knows this

He knows for over a month that he was wrong about that detail, yet still he came into this thread pretending he didn’t know to troll.


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## ShinAkuma (May 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You being wrong about that fact is where the lie is.



Being wrong is not a lie. Purposely misrepresenting the truth is.

They are distinctly different.


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## Trojan (May 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> . Purposely misrepresenting the truth is.


So, can we call Turrin a liar for purposely misrepresenting the fact that Minato reaching the BF before Tobirama means he is
faster than him? 


I might consider putting him on my ignore list if that's the case... 
lying cannot be tolerated...


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## Artistwannabe (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You being wrong about that fact is where the lie is.


That is not a lie though?In the post that I screenshotted millions of times I even gave you the benefit of doubt about the Ashura avatar you are speaking of so much right now, it's like you are not even reading my posts at this point. Yes I forgot you addressed it in a later thread *which I admitted*. Yet you keep stretching this conversation to no end.  I'm done with this


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## Azula (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why By my logic can’t Tobirama be above him?



If according to your logic KCM Minato is far faster than Base Minato, then BM Minato should proportionally be far faster than KCM Minato and yet you claim Tobirama is still faster than BM Minato.

How far above is Tobirama compared to Minato according to your logic?

And yet still depite there supposedly being this much of a gap between their speed Tobirama still wasn't fast enough to act when they were near the alliance and couldn't throw a kunai faster than Minato. (your logic again that you used to explain why Tobirama couldn't reach faster). 



Turrin said:


> In what world was Gaara equal to Rasa lol, he fodderized him



Gaara and Rasa were clashing equally until Gaara tricked Rasa into lifting the gold dust (all of it) which he did to protect his teammates.

Rasa can do everything Gaara can except for Ghost Mommy defense and sealing but Rasa has an inherent advanatage that his gold dust is heavier and can put a stop to sand.



Turrin said:


> I’d gladly debate Gaara vs Jiraiya start a thread and present your argument for why Jiraiya wins



What is there to debate, oil destroys sand by seeping in and kills Gaara's only ability. 



Turrin said:


> Means like 1-5 like he had against Obito or the 1 he invaded turtle island



If one of these Edos is Deidara, then Kabuto will easily win against EMS Sasuke even.



Turrin said:


> Hebi Sasuke and Ei are very close I can see arguments ether way, but Sasuke is more versatile



Raikage put Sasuke into the ground headfirst. Orochimaru's ability may offset the damage but not for long. Hebi isn't Gokage level yet.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Being wrong is not a lie. Purposely misrepresenting the truth is.
> 
> They are distinctly different.


If he was wrong and already corrected, and pretending he is still wrong and wasn’t corrected that’s a lie


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## Artistwannabe (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If he was wrong and already corrected, and pretending he is still wrong and wasn’t corrected that’s a lie


So me admitting I was wrong here:_ "I told you I gave you the benefit of doubt about this one. Yes it turned out you addressed it later on, *that I will admit.* So you can have this one."_
Is me still lying? Alright.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

Shark said:


> Ok I somehow understand how you rank them but I'm not 100% sure, anyway I'll give my thoughts and you can correct me along the way if I missed something.
> 
> Why is SM Rinnegan Madara above Juubito? Surely Madara needs Juubi powers to fight on such levels, gaining Juubi should be > Rinnegan. What Edo are included for Kabuto's placement? How do you decide where to rank Danzo w/Koto charged? Does that mean it's already set to go from match start? If so why can't he one-shot some of those above him too? How will Tobirama beat BM Minato? How are there so many characters in between Sick and Healthy Itachi? You don't think Jiraiya can beat Onoki/Muu/Gengetsu? Itachi can't be only one spot above Hiruzen who also shouldn't be above Orochimaru with Edo when he admitted inferiority to him w/o Edo. SM Naruto should be slightly above Jiraiya yet he is several spots below him. How does Hebi Sasuke beat A4? Why are Hiashi and Darui stronger than those Akatsuki below them? Why is Dan rated where he is? Based on what?
> 
> ...



1. You don’t need Juubi to fight on that level; Naruto and Sasuke fought on that level without Juubi; like wise Indra, Toneri, Hamura, and Hagaromo all fought on that level without Juubi. Anyway it certainly is debatably, but I think we have to look at a few things performance, skill set, and portrayal.

Performance wise SM Rinnegan Madara demolished did better against Tobirama, Naruto, and Sasuke hands down then Obito did, easily moping the floor with them, while Obito had a tough time.

Skill-Set wise Madara due to Rinbo is better imo as literally if you don’t have God Dojutsu like Rinnegan (Tenseigan?) God sense (RSM) you literally cant do anything against him. While Obito has resistance to Ninjutsu, he still can loose to Taijutsu & Senjutsu (& Genjutsu?). And we see how this made a difference if we look at performance. So I think more characters or character combinations have a chance against Obito skill set then Madara

Portrayal wise, Edo Madara was confident he could beat Obito, with Hashirama Senjutsu. Edo Madara was portrayed weaker the Living Madara, so it stands to reason SM Rinnegan Madara would at least be able to compete with Obito, if we low ball him, if take Madara word for it completely then SM Rinnegan Madara should definitely beat Obito. Though even if he doesn’t beat Obito, because Obito has Rinnegan isn’t super important as people don’t need to be able to beat everyone bellow them on my list, it’s more important that he is indicated to be around that level.

2. I only include a few Edo for Kabuto; like 1-5, as we saw under normal conditions when going to assault turtle island he only had 1 Edo via Deidara; and when going to encounter Obito he only had the Akatsuki and Madara. I also don’t really include Madara because after rereading those chapters out looks like Madara could have always fought off Kabuto control long enough to use the release seal if he wanted to.

3. Danzo Koto charged means he can use it at match start; and I agree there is a chance he can one shot people above him on the list but at a certain point I give the benefit of the doubt that Koto won’t work on people like Hashirama or Juubi Jin’s due to raw power. We also have some basis for that as Rinnegan Sasuke susanoo can shield even Mugen Tsukuyomi and obviously Mugen Tskuyomi wouldn’t have worked on Kin and Momo or Kaguya wouldn’t have feared them; and I have to imagine Mugen Tskuyomi > Koto right? Others I placed him below have knowledge on Shisui Dojutsu and could game around it. Though like I said it’s certainly possible that Danzo deserves to be higher

4. Tobirama beats BM Minato, because BM has a timelimit as we saw with Naruto; and since Tobirama is faster then him, he could evade his attacks until BM timelinit runs out and then defeat Minato before it starts again via Blitz. This match however is close and there are a few arguments that could be made for BM Minato too; which is why they are right next to each other; as well as the fact that they both excel in different ways with Tobirama being faster / and Minato being more powerful, giving them better odds against different opponents

5. I feel like it’s natural that there are a lot of characters in between a guy with a terminal illness and that same guy that doesn’t have one, also incidentally Edo Itachi didn’t have any of the eyesight issues that P1/2 Itachi did ether, so that’s another major difference between them two even beyond illness. He also gained more knowledge fighting against Nagato and Kabuto, while fighting alongside B and Naruto.  And ultimately the ability to span Susanoo and V4 with Totsuka and Yata mirror makes a big difference for him, we can discuss certain characters if you want though

6. Jiraiya could beat these characters, but his odds aren’t good IMO. I struggle to see what he can do against Jinton, especially in Base and both Mu & Onoki seem really aggressive in their usage of Jinton starting most matches with Jinton or using it early into a fight. In Gengetsu case Joki Bois speed is simply immense, if you go back and read those chapters it was dancing around Gaara Sand which has some really high end speed feats in the war. Jiraiya also doesn’t have anyway to deal with Joki Boi outside catching it in gourd seal which seems unlikely given its speed, so I also struggle to see how he’d deal with Joki Boi

7. Hiruzen and Sick Itachi are very close as they are pretty similar imo. Both are highly intelligent strategic characters who have strong arsenals but are weekend by handicaps. Itachi is slightly better as using V4 Susanoo (his hax sealing Jutsu) doesn’t necessary cost him his life, but likely will, while Shiki Fuujin will always kill Hiruzen (unless you can just use a Bushin proxy?). I also think most of the enemies above them they would only have a chance at beating at the cost of their life; Hiruzen by using Shiki Fuujin and Itachi due to Susanoo spamming; and they have similar odds against the enemies bellow them, except like I said a few Hiruzen would only draw/win with Shikoku Fuujin, while Itachi might barely survive winning but at a large cost.

8. Hiruzen didn’t admit inferiority to Orochimaru w/o Tensei; he just assumed his pupil could be stronger then him now since Oro kept improving and he declined due to age; but ultimately I would say he was wrong and they were very close in that final battle with Orochimaru really only “winning” by a slim margin due to his sword happening to be close enough to use it on Hiruzen to stop the final sealing. Even the Fanbook released at that time states Orochimaru and Hiruzen as equals. And when Kabuto tells Orochimaru in the arc after CE that he beat Hiruzen, Orochimaru tells him not to patronize him, as he basically knows that the victory wasn’t clear cut, and he nearly lost.

Anyway Hiruzen is above him for one reason and that’s Shiki Fuujin, which gives him better odds of defeating people Orochimaru can’t, especially in a team setting. Shiki Fuujin is broken and that should be accounted for imo.

9. SM Naruto I don’t think is above Jiraiya for the sole reason they Kyuubi prevented him from using Fusion. Naruto surpasses Jiraiya in Senjutsu, but due to this his Senjutsu has a huge weakness he didn’t overcome until later arcs. His SM has a time-limit and especially in the Pain Arc this was crippling as we clearly saw Naruto couldn’t buy enough time to enter SM again himself and needed to relying on clones; and even when he was fully prepped out with clones many things could and still did go wrong, he also was handicapped in the amount of Bushin he could use. Also without fusion Naruto may not even summon Ma/Pa IC and then looses out on a lot of other benefits of their wisdom in comparison to his lack there of and lack of knowledge. Jiraiya doesn’t have this weakness and is also a more experience and knowledgeable Ninja to start with.

8. When Sasuke aim dodged Ei4 and hit him with Chidori I fully believe Ei4 would have been dead if that Chidori could have been amped by CS to black Chidori

9. Haishi and Darui are two of the most underestimated characters in the verse, Darui is possible the most underestimated of all, if we include his Adult version being downplayed so heavily despite clashing evenly in Taijutsu with Momoshiki (but I won’t go into that with this question).

Starting with WA Darui. He has speed feats matching V1 Ei. Not only does he keep pace with him when attacking Sasuke, but he completed outdoes Suigetsu in CQC who also manages to react to and block V1 Ei ( I know V1 Ei is faster then Suigetsu and Darui, the point being the gap isn’t huge). Gin and Kin also keep pace with Darui, so we can say there speed is relative Darui which is high, despite this many times they get tagged by Ranton due to its homing nature and speed. This show Ranton is very difficult to avoid, and when you compound that with the fact that Darui can generate like 30 lasers at once casually (I say casually because he still had plenty of chakra to use the Sage treasures multiple times on top of this), you can begin to see why I believe he is such a dangerous enemy:

Then we have the unknown power of black lightening that seemingly has some Senjutsu aspect to it and Darui own high CQC skills as well as him being quick whitted and posting a high knowledge after the War, and you can start to see why I rate him so highly.

Against the Akatsuki specifically, Deidara would get cucked hard considering his Raiton and Ranton capabilities hard counter him; there’s a large chance Diedara wouldn’t even make it into the air if he didn’t start the fight on a mount. Against Kakuzu Darui was part of the division that fought him and therefore has full knowledge on him and his Raiton would cuck Domu; and his Ranton would be able to target all the maxed beasts at once destroying them without too much issue. Kisame would be difficult but that’s a potential match up thing, even still we have to consider can Samehada absorb Black Lightening and could Darui simply guide his Ranton to hit Kisame from behind to avoid being absorbed. Sasori could beat him, but Iron Sand gets owned by Raiton and Ranton/ Black Lightening is good for destroying puppets in mass; and targeting the puppeteers many body. Event still I should maybe put Sasori and Kisame above him and I’m open to arguments on why.

Haishi is broken as his wind palm barrier was strong enough to blow back the Juubi hand, he’s been shown to have vision that can see for miles, has mastery of Jyuuken to the point that he could kill someone with a single strike, and has Kaiden that was also strong enough to block Juubi attacks. As well as having a huge amount of experience and knowledge

Looking at the Akatsuki Haishi command of CqC means Deidara probably won’t take flight if he does he will likely die to Wind Barrier Palm which he has no defense against or means to predict while Byakugan, Kaiden, and Wind barrier palm can deal with all of Deidara attacks.

Kakuzu he can overcome Domu with internal attacks via Gentle fist (he stopped a kumo Shinobi heart before by just touching him) and we’ve also seen Neji channel killing chakra through web before so I would think Hashi can do it with tentacles, only issue I see here is if Kakuzu unique body makes his chakra pathway work differently and Haishi can’t do this, but then we’re talking match up and he can still swat away the masked beast with barrier palm while defending with Kaiten there attack.

Against Kisame he’s a nightmare match due to Gentle fist, so I won’t even go into much detail, he would destroy him in the early match closing his Tenketsu or just stopping his heart

Sasori could win depending on whether he knows about Byakugan weak point, but if he doesn’t Kaiten is a sold defense whole Byakugan should allow him to figure out the heart canister sooner rather then later and Wind Barrier palm is great for crushing Puppets. Sasori could also win though if Haishi let’s his guard down when he thinks he’s won.

Honestly after tying this might change Sasori placement to above Darui and Haishi.

10. Dan is probably way higher in reality and it felt wrong to put him this low to be honest. Firstly Dan spirit transformation technique is the most broken outside of Rimbo and some Alien Techs in the entire manga. And here’s why, when he use it he becomes intangible so he can’t be stopped, also it can travel over large distances at high speed meaning it can be used at extreme long range, and apparently even if the user doesn’t know where the target is, once he uses this technique he will immediately know their location. Once the spirit then enter the target body it destroys their soul or can allow the user to completely control their body or can allow them to transfer their chakra to target.

The only weakness is that Dan body is left immobile, but considering it can be used at long distances, that really isn’t a weakness Kishimoto lol. So basically Dan could chill in the Leaf village and decide hey I want to kill the Raikage, use spirit transformation and immediately kill him lol. It’s also insane support wise too due to the chakra transfer ability makes it greatly impactful support wise too.

The only reason I placed him lower is because he lacks fears outside this technique. But there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that he’s likely a highly capable Shinobi. I don’t put a huge amount of stock into DB2 stats for Dan since so much of the story changed since then, but even back then his stats were better then most Shinobi one DB2 with few exceptions indicating Kishi always intended him to be an amazingly strong Shinobi. He also has an enormous chakra supply being able to refill Tsunade Byakugo; and in DBIV it not only highlights him as an incredible Ninja vying for the seat of Hokage, but says he could use 3 elements and Yin/Yang, which implies he possessed a wide breath of Techniques. He also managed to fight several Jonin and Chouza during the war while giving them direction on how to defeat him, and they still could only contain him in a barrier rather then seal him.

11. Kisame and Diedara are close but I find Kisame style due to Samehada gives him better odds against enemies ranked above him then Deidaras like the Raikage for instance

12. Yes one character can be placed above one they loose too; it’s how they perform on average

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> That is not a lie though?In the post that I screenshotted millions of times I even gave you the benefit of doubt about the Ashura avatar you are speaking of so much right now, it's like you are not even reading my posts at this point. Yes I forgot you addressed it in a later thread *which I admitted*. Yet you keep stretching this conversation to no end.  I'm done with this


Then if your saying you forget, then do you admit due to forgetting that your misrepresented my stance unintentionally  in this thread. Yes or no, I think there one hour left here before ignore list


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## Artistwannabe (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Then if your saying you forget, then do you admit due to forgetting that your misrepresented my stance unintentionally  in this thread.


Yes, I suppose you can say that. 


Turrin said:


> I think there one hour left here before ignore list


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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

Azula said:


> If according to your logic KCM Minato is far faster than Base Minato, then BM Minato should proportionally be far faster than KCM Minato and yet you claim Tobirama is still faster than BM Minato.
> 
> How far above is Tobirama compared to Minato according to your logic?
> 
> ...



1. I think that’s a good point but it’s hard to quantify. We didn’t see a clear increase in speed when Naruto went from KCM to BM for instance. So we don’t know if there’s is a substantial speed increase the way we do with KCM. The other problem is if you look at Minato he gets the Kurama Avatar but not BM explicitly like Naruto does, as he basically stays in KCM just adding the Avatar. So I don’t think hed get a speed increase anyway if Naruto did.

I’m not going to go into reaching the battlefield first again you know my stance on it and I know yours and heavily disagree with it, so it’s fruitless to go into t again

2. Rasa and Gaara clashed evenly for a few seconds, and then Gaara showed his sand was much faster by raising it above Rasa Gold dust so quickly Rasa was caught of guard and easily sealed no diff. This is despite Rasa sand being indicated to have a natural advantage over Gaaras in the data book and still he was no diffed. Also Rasa hasnt shown anywhere near the techniques Gaara has.

3. That’s fair but would be more of a type match up thing if Jiraiya was aware and exploited this weakness; outside of oil Gaara is superior to Jiraiya by the end of the war. 

4. Kabuto is higher then EMS Sasuke just not Choke Tome EMS Sasuke who can keep up with Juubi Obito in speed

5. Ei also got hit by Chidori before that if t was amped to black chidori by CS2 do you have any evidence he would survive?


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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Yes, I suppose you can say that.


At least if you admit that I won’t put you on the ignore list, but I’m not going to even give you 24 hours if I see anything about you misrepresenting my stance about Hashirama again; as you know where I stand now. He’s much weaker then AA, and even without AA Naruto is stronger, but I don’t think it would be a stomp. And yes I do think he may be able to survive the TBB FRS but he’d need SS and it would likely cripple SS as Madara TBB did in their fight. Naruto with RSM is better as he could probably use another round of that to defeat Hashirama, while Hashirama can’t  as casually use SS.


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## ShinAkuma (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> but I’m not going to even give you 24 hours



The NBD should be a weekly show on youtube.

WE COULD BE RICH


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## Zembie (May 27, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The NBD should be a weekly show on youtube.
> 
> WE COULD BE RICH



I can see it now, money on top of money. Helicopters, a harem and a house in Dubai.


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## Santoryu (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> At least if you admit that I won’t put you on the ignore list, *but I’m not going to even give you 24 hours i*f I see anything about you misrepresenting my stance about Hashirama again; as you know where I stand now. .


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## Artistwannabe (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> but I don’t think it would be a stomp.


Well you are wrong.


> And yes I do think he may be able to survive the TBB FRS but he’d need SS and it would likely cripple SS as Madara TBB did in their fight.


You are wrong again. Bijuudama have mountain size destructibility, while Naruto's casual bijuudama rasenshuriken VAPORIZED meteors that *DWARF* mountain range.

Keep in mind this is all RUBBLE from the meteors Sasuke cut, Naruto vaporized multiple of them. If Hashirama can block *MAXIMUM* mountain range attacks (since multiple of his hands got destroyed in the clash against Madara's TBB), and Naruto's Rasenshuriken is shown to be way stronger than that, then how is Hashirama blocking these again?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Azula (May 27, 2019)

Maybe I will make a Gaara and Rasa thread. 



Turrin said:


> 5. Ei also got hit by Chidori before that if t was amped to black chidori by CS2 do you have any evidence he would survive?



Survive??? Chidori was simply a scratch to him. CS amped chidori would be a slightly deeper scratch not life ending threat. Hebi Sasuke's fire only slightly edged out Itachi's and won by persistence. CS amp isn't that drastic.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Well you are wrong.
> 
> You are wrong again. Bijuudama have mountain size destructibility, while Naruto's casual bijuudama rasenshuriken VAPORIZED meteors that *DWARF* mountain range.
> 
> Keep in mind this is all RUBBLE from the meteors Sasuke cut, Naruto vaporized multiple of them. If Hashirama can block *MAXIMUM* mountain range attacks (since multiple of his hands got destroyed in the clash against Madara's TBB), and Naruto's Rasenshuriken is shown to be way stronger than that, then how is Hashirama blocking these again?


This is explosion far beyond mountain sized something SS tanked and shielded Hashirama from :


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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

Azula said:


> Maybe I will make a Gaara and Rasa thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Survive??? Chidori was simply a scratch to him. CS amped chidori would be a slightly deeper scratch not life ending threat. Hebi Sasuke's fire only slightly edged out Itachi's and won by persistence. CS amp isn't that drastic.


CS offers a x10 amp and that isn’t accounting for black ration buff; the idea that it would only be slightly deeper is completely unfounded


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## Artistwannabe (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is explosion far beyond mountain sized something SS tanked and shielded Hashirama from :


 First and foremost, explosions from TBB don't look like that in the manga. Second, wasn't this the explosion that created the Valley of the end? Anyways
It's still mountain sized, multi-mountain if you want to wank it. Nothing compared to country level Madara pulled out.

*Land of Frost*



Which Naruto casually vaporized. Infact in both this picture and the one I posted earlier of Madara's CT you can see the curvature of the earth.


Reason I am posting is again is to stress out the fact that these rocks are *RUBBLES* from the planetoids Sasuke cut and they already look bigger than the scan you posted.

Here is Sasuke's PS compared to Naruto's Bijuudama raasenshuriken exposion. Keep in mind PS is as large as a mountain.

Not to mention it was multiple Bijuudama that Madara fired, so assuming this is smoke (since TBB don't look like that in the manga) It's mountain range at best. (Because Madara fired several, so the attack is still mountain sized)

So in conclusion, Hashirama barely blocked mountain level attacks (he got alot of his hands destroyed in the process). You can infact argue that Hashirama would not be able to block even one of these Rasenshuriken Naruto shat out.

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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> First and foremost, explosions from TBB don't look like that in the manga. Second, wasn't this the explosion that created the Valley of the end? Anyways
> It's still mountain sized, multi-mountain if you want to wank it. Nothing compared to country level Madara pulled out.
> 
> *Land of Frost*
> ...


Stopped reading at SS blocked only a mountain level attack when you actually posted a page and circled a mountain which was dwarfed by the explosion, which SS protected Hashirama from lol. I have no time for this


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## Cichy (May 27, 2019)

> 4. Tobirama beats BM Minato, because BM has a timelimit as we saw with Naruto; and *since Tobirama is faster then him*, he could evade his attacks until BM timelinit runs out and then defeat Minato before it starts again via Blitz.





BM Minato > SM Minato > base Minato > Tobirama

Tobirama knows what he is talking about, he's a competent dude.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2019)

Cichy said:


> BM Minato > SM Minato > base Minato > Tobirama
> 
> Tobirama knows what he is talking about, he's a competent dude.


u r wasting your time.


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## Artistwannabe (May 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Stopped reading at SS blocked only a mountain level attack when you actually posted a page and circled a mountain which was dwarfed by the explosion, which SS protected Hashirama from lol. I have no time for this


Lmao so you can't say anything to disprove my arguments?  Concession accepted.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Lmao so you can't say anything to disprove my arguments?  Concession accepted.


There isn’t a need for me to say anything, I’ll let you do that for me:

Edit: Also this shit should be a meme lol, for how crazy it is that you specifically circled a mountain yourself highlighting how small it is in comparison to the explosion Hashirama SS defended against and then immediately after concluded he can only block a mountain level attacks lol. Fantastic. You crack me up man. 



Artistwannabe said:


> So in conclusion, Hashirama barely blocked mountain level attacks


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> There isn’t a need for me to say anything, I’ll let you do that for me:
> 
> 
> Edit: Also this shit should be a meme lol, for how crazy it is that you specifically circled a mountain yourself highlighting how small it is in comparison to the explosion Hashirama SS defended against and then immediately after concluded he can only block a mountain level attacks lol. Fantastic. You crack me up man.


You are specifically ignoring everything I said in my post though.  "First and foremost, explosions from TBB don't look like that in the manga" "Not to mention it was *multiple* Bijuudama that Madara fired, so assuming this is smoke (since TBB don't look like that in the manga) It's mountain range at best." (Because Madara fired several, so the attack is still mountain sized)" What I am arguing for is that one TBB is mountain range (because it is) reason it created such havoc is because Madara fired *SEVERAL.* So Hashirama barely blocking mountain range attacks is nothing impressive (his hands got destroyed in the process). Infact in the official coloring from Shueisha it is infact smoke:

This is what an actual explosion looks like:

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## Android (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Infact in the official coloring from Shueisha it is infact smoke:


Yup. And it looks exactly like Sakura's cherry blossom impact (the name of her punch).


Punches do not produce explosions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> You are specifically ignoring everything I said in my post though.  "First and foremost, explosions from TBB don't look like that in the manga" "Not to mention it was *multiple* Bijuudama that Madara fired, so assuming this is smoke (since TBB don't look like that in the manga) It's mountain range at best." (Because Madara fired several, so the attack is still mountain sized)" What I am arguing for is that one TBB is mountain range (because it is) reason it created such havoc is because Madara fired *SEVERAL.* So Hashirama barely blocking mountain range attacks is nothing impressive (his hands got destroyed in the process). Infact in the official coloring from Shueisha it is infact smoke:
> 
> This is what an actual explosion looks like:


So your using manga colorization that isn’t done by Kishimoto to try and make your point and even there it’s not smoke we just see dust kicked up by the impact lol at just smoke; what we’re seeing is the explosion / shockwave of SS attacks colliding with Madara TBB; something that is clearly beyond mountain level that SS tanks. Even your own logic makes zero sense if we assume 1 TBB is mountain level (no clue where your getting that shit from to start with, probably scaling from a lesser Bijuu); then the combined attack of SS and many TBB would obviously be above mountain level significantly.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Android said:


> Yup. And it looks exactly like Sakura's cherry blossom impact (the name of her punch).
> 
> 
> Punches do not produce explosions.


Okasho actually is an explosion as chakra is gathered in the fist and then is released at impact causing an explosion and successive shockwave. Which is why we see in that panel you posted the Juubilings being blown away by the shockwave 

Cherry¹ Blossom Impact (桜花衝, Oukashou)
Taijutsu, C-rank, Offensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Haruno Sakura

A punch packing chakra and determination!
With that single punch, even rock is pulverised with ease!!

↓Together with an intense yell, Sakura lets loose an attack she put her heart and soul into!
[picture of Sakura about to punch]

People are wont to recognise this as "superhuman strength," but it's an application of "medical ninjutsu," demanding the ability to concentrate and minute chakra control. In an instant, the highest grade of chakra is kneaded inside the body, and a moment later all of it it is gathered into the right fist!! That chakra is dispersed into the target, together with the impact of the punch, spreading the damage to every nook and corner! Any kind of strength is meaningless before this technique. With the damage done dependent on the amount of chakra used, it is also possible for a skilled shinobi to amass it in their fingertip.

[picture of Sakura punching the ground, destroying it]
←The ground, showered with punches, is pulverised into minute pieces by the excess shock, which are then scattered like flower petals, giving rise to the name "Cherry Blossom Impact".

The scattered fragments become like flower petals, blooming and fluttering about!!

¹ The Japanese name for "cherry" is "sakura".


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## Android (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okasho actually is an explosion as chakra is gathered in the fist and then is released at impact causing an explosion and successive shockwave.


I know how it works. And no it doesn't produce an explosion, it produces a shockwave.

Just like this


Do you see an energy explosion here ?


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## Zembie (May 28, 2019)

@Android @Artistwannabe You're wasting your time my dudes. He will never admit to being wrong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Android said:


> I know how it works. And no it doesn't produce an explosion, it produces a shockwave.
> 
> Just like this
> 
> ...


Clearly you don’t 

EXPLOSION
ex·plo·sion
/ikˈsplōZHən/
_noun_

a violent and destructive shattering or blowing apart of something, as is caused by a bomb.
synonyms: detonation, discharge, eruption, blowing up, ignition; More
*TECHNICAL
a violent expansion in which energy is transmitted outward as a shock wave*


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## Android (May 28, 2019)

Zembie said:


> @Android @Artistwannabe You're wasting your time my dudes. He will never admit to being wrong.


Eh, I've got nothing else to do really.


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## Android (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Clearly you don’t
> 
> EXPLOSION
> ex·plo·sion
> ...


Good. Now do you see energy expanding in the scan like fire ? 
Do you see an energy explosion, yes or no ?


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Android said:


> Good. Now do you see energy expanding in the scan like fire ?
> Do you see an energy explosion, yes or no ?


In an instant, the highest grade of chakra is kneaded inside the body, and a moment later all of it it is gathered into the right fist!! *That chakra is dispersed into the target together with the impact of the punch
*
“Explosions occur when energy is transformed from one kind e.g. chemical *potential energy* to another e.g. heat energy or *kinetic energy* extremely quickly. ”


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So your using manga colorization that isn’t done by Kishimoto to try and make your point and even there it’s not smoke we just see dust kicked up by the impact lol at just smoke; what we’re seeing is the explosion / shockwave of SS attacks colliding with Madara TBB; something that is clearly beyond mountain level that SS tanks. Even your own logic makes zero sense if we assume 1 TBB is mountain level (no clue where your getting that shit from to start with, probably scaling from a lesser Bijuu); then the combined attack of SS and many TBB would obviously be above mountain level significantly.


*(no clue where your getting that shit from to start with, probably scaling from a lesser Bijuu)*


*Spoiler*: _The attack is mountain level. PERIOD_ 








So Hashirama is barely able to *COUNTER* MOUNTAIN LEVEL attacks *(keep in mind they are MULTIPLE/ so THE ATTACKS BY THEMSELVES ARE MOUNTAIN LEVEL)* with his fists, Let alone able to tank something SIGNIFICANTLY ABOVE that level. *Reason it created such havoc is because Madara fired SEVERAL. So Hashirama barely blocking mountain range attacks is nothing impressive (his hands got destroyed in the process). There is a reason why Hashirama opted for punching the bijuu-bombs, so they do not explode in his face.*

This is what a multi-mountain level *EXPLOSION* looks like in the manga:

Not this:


And here is another example of *SOMEBODY LITERALLY DEFLECTING *several mountain level attacks in an instant:


This feat is still *NOTHING *compared to *CASUALLY* countering a *COUNTRY LEVEL ATTACK




ONE EXPLOSION OF THIS ATTACK MAKES SASUKE'S PERFECT SUSANOO LOOK LIKE AN ANT IN COMPARISON:

KEEP IN MIND PS IS AS LARGE AS A MOUNTAIN ITSELF.*

How are these attacks comparable in your mind is just *MIND-BOGGLING* to me.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> *(no clue where your getting that shit from to start with, probably scaling from a lesser Bijuu)*
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _The attack is mountain level. PERIOD_
> ...



So your belief is that because the TBB CROSSED AN OCEAN and it’s explosion was still bigger then several mountains, that it’s only mountain level lol.

Also you don’t seem to get it; the TBB and SS attacks collided creating an explosion/shockwave that was far beyond mountain level in that SS tanked


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## Android (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> In an instant, the highest grade of chakra is kneaded inside the body, and a moment later all of it it is gathered into the right fist!! *That chakra is dispersed into the target together with the impact of the punch
> *
> “Explosions occur when energy is transformed from one kind e.g. chemical *potential energy* to another e.g. heat energy or *kinetic energy* extremely quickly. ”


Come on man, don't play silly. There's a difference between an explosion that produces an energy sphere or a thermal blast and an "explosion" that does nothing but creating a shockwave and a huge cloud of kicked up dust and rubble.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Android said:


> Come on man, don't play silly. There's a difference between an explosion that produces an energy sphere or a thermal blast and an "explosion" that does nothing but creating a shockwave and a huge cloud of kicked up dust and rubble.


You said that Sakura’s punch doesn’t cause an explosion, but it does. Your wrong end of story. I could careless about you now trying to shift the goal posts to “there are different types of explosions”.

My point stands SS was hit by and tanked an explosion that was far beyond mountain level:



Artistwannabe said:


> .


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 28, 2019)

Late to the party but why are the fodder hokage who all got blitzed and one shot by Momoshiki anywhere near Delta who fought toe to toe with naruto in cqc and why is gaara above her. Anyone that can even give Naruto a low diff fight can curb stomp all the kage worse then madara did to the old ones as far as Im concerned.

Did the kages get some filler feats in boruto I missed XD


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So your belief is that because the TBB CROSSED AN OCEAN


Doesn't matter in the slightest, that's an excuse.


> and it’s explosion was still bigger then several mountains


It isn't, measure it yourself, infact the mountains behind the TBB are still *BIGGER* than the explosion.


> Also you don’t seem to get it; the TBB and SS attacks collided creating an explosion/shockwave that was far beyond mountain level in that SS tanked


I do, the TBB separately are mountain level, Hashirama got multiple hands destroyed just trying to punch them (I am not talking about after the explosion). He barely tanked a multi-mountain explosion like the one I show here:



it's multiple TBB going off, you can't say the whole thing is an explosion when most of it is obviously smoke. Now compare that to Bijuudama Rasenshurikens which are country level:




A single explosion from that jutsu already dwarfs the explosion you are hyping so much. Perfect Susanoo standing tall is as large as a mountain, you do the comparison.



And this is only *one*, let alone several of these:



Infact this large pile of rubbles is STILL bigger than the "beyond mountain level explosion" you are showing off:



There is just *NO* way Hashirama is dealing with that jutsu. Some people already scale Naruto to a planet buster (not talking about myself), I'd like to see Hashirama getting the same treatment.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perfect Susano (May 28, 2019)

Don't really think hyper analyzing art which isn't drawn consistently is really the way to go. At most it just gives a general idea of the level of the fight.

Like the "curvature of the earth" being able to be seen in Madara's Chibaku Tensei image. The same thing can be seen with BM Naruto and Bee's combined Bijudama so by that logic it can take out the whole meteor shower at once. That isn't really true though if you look at other panels. And Madara's Chibaku Tensei aren't bigger than Naruto and Bee's Bijudama crater, so destroying those isn't as significant as people claim.


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## ShinAkuma (May 28, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> Don't really think hyper analyzing art which isn't drawn consistently is really the way to go. At most it just gives a general idea of the level of the fight.
> 
> Like the "curvature of the earth" being able to be seen in Madara's Chibaku Tensei image.



Could be argued as a "fisheye" effect. Kishi has used it multiple times in the manga. Artistic liberty and such.


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Could be argued as a "fisheye" effect. Kishi has used it multiple times in the manga. Artistic liberty and such.


Yeah, it's curvilinear perspective. That's why I don't really mention it that much, it can definitely be argued as an artistic choice.


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## Zembie (May 28, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Late to the party but why are the fodder hokage who all got blitzed and one shot by Momoshiki anywhere near Delta who fought toe to toe with naruto in cqc and why is gaara above her. Anyone that can even give Naruto a low diff fight can curb stomp all the kage worse then madara did to the old ones as far as Im concerned.
> 
> Did the kages get some filler feats in boruto I missed XD


Yea, one got spanked by Chunin and the other one got oneshotted by some fodder that Onoki on his dead-bed defeated.


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## ShinAkuma (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Yeah, it's curvilinear perspective. That's why I don't really mention it that much, it can definitely be argued as an artistic choice.



Yeah Kishi tosses it in there every so often. The obvious examples I can remember;

how Pa only compares Naruto to Jiraiya after he learned how to harness Natural Energy without any toad oil

how Pa only compares Naruto to Jiraiya after he learned how to harness Natural Energy without any toad oil


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## Sufex (May 28, 2019)

Surely though its a simple concept that Rikudou naruto attacks>>> Madaras and hashiramas???


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## ShinAkuma (May 28, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Surely though its a simple concept that Rikudou naruto attacks>>> Madaras and hashiramas???



Is it? Is it that simple......hmmmmmmm.....Chojuro....


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## Zembie (May 28, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Surely though its a simple concept that Rikudou naruto attacks>>> Madaras and hashiramas???


No? We need 10 more pages of arguing till Turrin says his motto "I accept your concession"


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Doesn't matter in the slightest, that's an excuse.
> 
> It isn't, measure it yourself, infact the mountains behind the TBB are still *BIGGER* than the explosion.
> 
> ...


You don’t get it the explosion is a combination of all these attacks colliding creating a much more powerful kinetic explosion and shockwave that was portrayed far beyond mountain level



Artistwannabe said:


> .



You scaling off a single TBB explosion size is inaccurate and not my problem. Also not my problem that your choosing to believe the above is mostly smoke when the clearly drawn as the shockwave of explosion


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You don’t get it the explosion is a combination of all these attacks colliding creating a much more powerful kinetic explosion and shockwave that was portrayed far beyond mountain level:


"I do, the TBB separately are mountain level, Hashirama got multiple hands destroyed just trying to punch them (I am not talking about after the explosion). He barely tanked a multi-mountain explosion:" I told you several times it was multi-mountain level.




> You scaling off a single TBB explosion size is inaccurate and not my problem. Also not my problem that your choosing to believe the above is mostly smoke when the clearly drawn as the shockwave of explosion


Proof that it is *CLEARLY* drawn as a shockwave? In the official colouring it's smoke/dust flying upwards.


This is quite literally the closest thing you can compare it to (obviously it's a little bigger sized), unless you want to correct me on that.

Now can you adress my other points? I am honestly not really up for debate anymore...


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Zembie said:


> No? We need 10 more pages of arguing till Turrin says his motto "I accept your concession"


I do not plan on dragging this any further to be honest...


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## Perfect Susano (May 28, 2019)

Bijudama exploded in a similar way when Naruto used it against Obito's Truthseeker shield. Seems to explode in that way instead of a sphere whenever it directly impacts something strong enough that it can't carry.

And Shinsuusenju lost all of it's arms due to the Chojo Kebetsu's recoil. Madara only cut off some of it's arms. Chojo Kebetsu is a one shot technique at least when it sends all of it's arms crashing down on a target in that way.


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> Bijudama exploded in a similar way when Naruto used it against Obito's Truthseeker shield. Seems to explode in that way instead of a sphere whenever it directly impacts something strong enough that it can't carry.


Bijuudama? Are you talking about the giant Rasengan? Can I see a scan?


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## Perfect Susano (May 28, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Madara and Hashirama's clash isn't dust. I would say that the point of the scan is to show how titanic the battle is and the result of the clash being something as insignificant as dust is obviously pointless for what it's conveying.


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, but you can also see the explosion:

Although you can always argue the size of the explosion based on the scan Turrin provided. I say it's multi-mountain sized.  Still strong enough to create the valley of the end.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> "I do, the TBB separately are mountain level, Hashirama got multiple hands destroyed just trying to punch them (I am not talking about after the explosion). He barely tanked a multi-mountain explosion:" I told you several times it was multi-mountain level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How many mountains is multi-mountain? Like hundreds?

The colored panel also has it as a shockwave, that’s how shockwaves are drawn in the manga. Your boy android already proved it with his panel of Sakura punching the ground

And no concede that It’s an explosion and SS tanks it, and drop your ridiculous smoke / dust argument and then I’ll address your other points


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> How many mountains is multi-mountain? Like hundreds?


That's a very bold claim to say it took out hundreds of mountains.



> The colored panel also has it as a shockwave, that’s how shockwaves are drawn in the manga. Your boy android already proved it with his panel of Sakura punching the ground
> 
> And no concede that It’s an explosion and SS tanks it, and drop your ridiculous smoke argument and then I’ll address your other points


Already said it's up to interpretation:
"Although you can always argue the size of the explosion based on the scan Turrin provided. I say it's multi-mountain sized. Still strong enough to create the valley of the end."


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> That's a very bold claim to say it took out hundreds of mountains.
> 
> 
> Already said it's up to interpretation:
> "Although you can always argue the size of the explosion based on the scan Turrin provided. I say it's multi-mountain sized. Still strong enough to create the valley of the end."


I’m not claiming anything I’m asking you what does multi-mountain stand for?

Actually it’s not open to interpretation as the shockwave is part of the kinetic explosion. So the explosion is the size its at on panel, end of story.


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’m not claiming anything I’m asking you what does multi-mountain stand for?


An attack able to take out multiple mountains. You are right it's a little bit vague, that's why I stress the fact that this explosion managed to create the valley of the end (I think?). 11 TBB are fired that are able to take out 11 mountains, yes the blast should be stronger, but we can't really estimate by how much. Still smaller than the blast 1 Rasenshuriken made.


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## Android (May 28, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why do you and ARGUS love to bring up this argument without actually looking at the scan correctly ? 
This doesn't look AT ALL like Hashirama and Madara clash. And the colored scan confirm this.

Nice try, KeyofMiracles.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> An attack able to take out multiple mountains. You are right it's a little bit vague, that's why I stress the fact that this explosion managed to create the valley of the end (I think?). 11 TBB are fired that are able to take out 11 mountains, yes the blast should be stronger, but we can't really estimate by how much. Still smaller than the blast 1 Rasenshuriken made.


Look man if your saying it’s 11 mountains in scale or only slightly more, I’m just going to repost the panel you did previously where you actually circled a few mountains in comparison to it’s size yourself:


That’s clearly FAR more then 11 mountains; and I can’t even begin to get into he other stuff with you if your going to claim it’s anywhere close to 11 mountains in scale


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look man if your saying it’s 11 mountains in scale or only slightly more, I’m just going to repost the panel you did previously where you actually circled a few mountains in comparison to it’s size yourself:


Sure, tell me how many mountains are destroyed in this panel, I dare you.

On the other hand, I took my time and I measured the blast waves of the techniques, using Sasuke's PS as a scale.

It's quite hard judging the blast wave exactly since it's mostly obscured by 
*Spoiler*: _cough_ 



smoke





*BTW I MAY HAVE MADE A MISTAKE SOMEWHERE, SO TAKE IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT!!!!!
*
Keep in mind that this blast wave is also a pure ball of energy. And this is also 1 Rasenshuriken, if this is comparable to the blast *(of course giving the benefit of doubt that in the first panel there's no smoke)* How is Hashirama able to block multiple of these again?



> and I can’t even begin to get into he other stuff with you if your going to claim it’s anywhere close to 11 mountains in scale


You can't, or don't want to?


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## Perfect Susano (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Sure, but you can also see the explosion:
> 
> Although you can always argue the size of the explosion based on the scan Turrin provided. I say it's multi-mountain sized.  Still strong enough to create the valley of the end.


You're just making arbitrary distinctions. It's still not the spherical explosion it usually has. The point is that it generated the same "dust" that you're claiming for Hashirama and Madara. So you cannot claim that Hashirama and Madara's clash is just dust based on not seeing the normal Bijudama detonation. You're basically saying that Madara's attack didn't explode at all and that obviously isn't true. There's no reason why it has to look like the normal Bijudama explosion. The most common sense conclusion is that it's an explosion.


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> You're just making arbitrary distinctions. It's still not the spherical explosion it usually has. The point is that it generated the same "dust" that you're claiming for Hashirama and Madara. So you cannot claim that Hashirama and Madara's clash is just dust based on not seeing the normal Bijudama detonation. You're basically saying that Madara's attack didn't explode at all and that obviously isn't true. There's no reason why it has to look like the normal Bijudama explosion. The most common sense conclusion is that it's an explosion.


When the fuck did I ever claim it's only dust? I just said that the larger part of the explosion is obscured by smoke, so I can't exactly give an estimate to how big it is.


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Android said:


> Nice try, KeyofMiracles.


Who's that?


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## Perfect Susano (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> When the fuck did I ever claim it's only dust? I just said that the larger part of the explosion is obscured by smoke, so I can't exactly give an estimate to how big it is.


Semantics. You're claiming that the explosion is mostly smoke and isn't representative of the power they put out. And I'm saying there's no evidence there's "smoke" in the first place. Just like Naruto's Bijudama against Obito wasn't 90% smoke despite producing the same effect. There's smoke produced after the explosion that you can see in the panels where Hashirama goes to subdue Kurama. There is no evidence that the explosion is mostly smoke. There's no reason for you to even come to that conclusion.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Sure, tell me how many mountains are destroyed in this panel, I dare you.
> 
> On the other hand, I took my time and I measured the blast waves of the techniques, using Sasuke's PS as a scale.
> 
> ...


You can’t superimpose a scale that way as image size is drawn relative to the panel; and panels are drawn at different sizes. Try applying your scale to the actual image of the 6 TBB FRS hitting the meteors, and you’ll end up with a similar amount of Sasuke cause basically your scaling the panel size not the size attack. 

If you visually look at when the 6 TBB hit the  meteors, you can see their combined explosion are around the same size as the God Tree and the crater around the God Tree, which is basically around the same size or smaller then SS and Madara clash:

The ocean is basically used as reference for both size wise too


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> Semantics. You're claiming that the explosion is mostly smoke and isn't representative of the power they put out. And I'm saying there's no evidence there's "smoke" in the first place. Just like Naruto Bijudama against Obito wasn't 90% smoke despite producing the same effect. There's smoke produced after the explosion that you can see in the panels where Hashirama goes to subdue Kurama. There is no evidence that the explosion is mostly smoke. There's no reason for you to even come to that conclusion.


I do have my reason to believe it, because this looks like smoke to me,

And literally in the next panel everything is concieved by smoke, which is coincidentally coloured the same way.
Of course you can argue the opposite, and I admit it's not one of my most solid arguments.

*So just to be fair I factored everything when scaling it the explosion in my last reply to Turrin.*


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## Android (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Who's that?


A former NBD thug, just like me.


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## Perfect Susano (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I do have my reason to believe it, because this looks like smoke to me,
> 
> And literally in the next panel everything is concieved by smoke, which is coincidentally coloured the same way.
> Of course you can argue the opposite, and I admit it's not one of my most solid arguments.
> ...


And there are similar explosions to that which aren't smoke. Color isn't the only visual indicator. They visually do not look like the same effect. If you want to argue that it's smoke though that's fine. Agree to disagree.


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You can’t superimpose a scale that way as image size is drawn relative to the panel; and panels are drawn at different sizes. Try applying your scale to the actual image of the 6 TBB FRS hitting the meteors, and you’ll end up with a similar amount of Sasuke cause basically your scaling the panel size not the size attack.


No no no, I did not use the same Sasuke from the last panel to scale both attacks.
Here:

Look at the orange circle. The red circle is not taken from the Bijuudama Rasenshuriken panel, but I am using the mountain (Since PS is arguably mountain sized) to scale the explosion. I used the same logic in the 6 TBB RS and got comparable numbers:

You could argue they are mid-explosion, but that's just an assumption on my part.


> If you visually look at when the 6 TBB hit the  meteors, you can see their combined explosion are around the same size as the God Tree and the crater around the God Tree, which is basically around the same size or smaller then SS and Madara clash:
> 
> The ocean is basically used as reference for both size wise too


I actually understand the logic that you used to come up to that conclusion. *What you've said is fair and I definitely see where you come from*. I do still believe that my scaling is semi-correct though. But honestly I would like to end this discussion, it's getting quite tiring for me and we've argued for 2 days straight. Looks like I can't match your debating stamina yet.
I propose that we agree to disagree on this one and maybe we can have this discussion some other time.


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## Artistwannabe (May 28, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> And there are similar explosions to that which aren't smoke. Color isn't the only visual indicator. They visually do not look like the same effect. If you want to argue that it's smoke though that's fine. Agree to disagree.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No no no, I did not use the same Sasuke from the last panel to scale both attacks.
> Here:
> 
> Look at the orange circle. The red circle is not taken from the Bijuudama Rasenshuriken panel, but I am using the mountain (Since PS is arguably mountain sized) to scale the explosion. I used the same logic in the 6 TBB RS and got comparable numbers:
> ...


Use the mountain or Sasuke it’s the same issue both are drawn proportionally to fit the size of that panel; and therefore the system your using won’t work (Kishi is also definitely not accounting for this in between panels,  he’s only drawing things in each panel how large he wants them to appear to readers in that panel. Which why I think we should just take into context the size they are drawn to in both individual panels and the 6 TBB FRS are around the size of the God Tree Crater.

Anyway, Im glad that you can see now how I am coming to the conclusion that SS may be able to survive TBB FRS. It doesn’t matter though as RSM Naruto would then beat him after that clash anyway. It’s just that Hashirama wouldn’t be stomped.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (May 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. You don’t need Juubi to fight on that level; Naruto and Sasuke fought on that level without Juubi; like wise Indra, Toneri, Hamura, and Hagaromo all fought on that level without Juubi. Anyway it certainly is debatably, but I think we have to look at a few things performance, skill set, and portrayal.
> 
> Performance wise SM Rinnegan Madara demolished did better against Tobirama, Naruto, and Sasuke hands down then Obito did, easily moping the floor with them, while Obito had a tough time.
> 
> ...


1. On the portrayal point, Madara only said he'd weaken Obito iirc not outright defeat him which might imply a lot of things but not necessarily that he believed he was superior.

2. I see your point about Koto, but tbh who IT works on seems to be based on plot; ET could be affected by genjutsu (Edo Itachi vs Kabuto) but were immune to IT.

3. You don't think BM gives a decent speed boost? BM Minato even by your estimations should at least be in Tobirama's ballpark speed-wise and with superior firepower he should win. He's also not completely vulnerable when leaving BM nor will Tobirama necessarily be in a position to capitalize.

4. How do you have Edo Itachi above Pain for example?

5. Mu and Onoki haven't had a lot of panel time and have only participated in high-end situations which makes it seem they're aggressive with their Jinton but likely that's just what Kishimoto wanted to highlight the best of their arsenal. Jiraiya still outclasses in short and mid-range abilities and can reach them in the air through a multitude of ways even in base, his toads can clear enough distance to evade the technique and he's a character who's main way to fight is through traps, interruptions and indirect fighting so he won't ICly try to overpower Jinton. He can also counter invisibility through his Barrier. We saw Joki boy outspeed Gaara but we also saw a fodder survive its attack which implies it's less about it being lethal and more hard to tag. Gengetsu is still in danger of Jutsu like Gamayu Endan and oil in general since it seems to screw with his jutsu and if he's worn out like he did in the manga Jiraiya has the stamina necessary. The location could also help Jiraiya greatly against Gengetsu. Also do you think Muu/Gengetsu/Onoki have superior portrayal to Jiraiya?

6. How is Hiruzen winning with Shiki Fujin when it kills him? Sick Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru who beat Hiruzen while toying with him. "Only a Sannin can beat a Sannin" "Lord Jiraiya we need you to face Orochimaru" so even including the fanbook it all implies Sannin/Orochimaru were >= Hiruzen (Just like there are manga implications for Jiraiya > Orochimaru espite the DB saying Jiraiya is only "on par" with Orochimaru). Orochimaru's sword being there wasn't portrayed as "a lucky moment" for Orochimaru so I'm not gonna assume it was. Each MS technique Itachi has including Izanami is greater than any single jutsu Hiruzen has besides Shiki Fujin which kills him.

7. Naruto having Senjutsu-related weaknesses doesn't change the fact that he's better than Jiraiya in Senjutsu as that was the whole point. No point in stressing out Naruto being a better sage if he actually wasn't a better sage. We were told Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and that Naruto pushed Pain more than Jiraiya. From a feats perspective all those advantages can be upset by Naruto's raw power and feinting game. If Naruto doesn't have prep then that means he can spam SM clones in those 5 minutes. Knowledge and experience isn't much of an advantage against the MC.

8. But would Sasuke go CS2 before A amps up his speed further?

9. I don't think the gap is small just because of those combination/interception feats, Kakashi and 6G Gai have a large gap in physical speed (Gai is faster even in base) yet they were doing combination attacks too. Problem is we don't have hype for Darui speed but only feats. Against Kakuzu his Ranton realistically isn't going to not only outmaneuver the hearts' blast attacks but also outmaneuver the hearts themselves simultaneously. Against Kisame it'd be more fair that the fight progresses beyond the cqc stage and Kisame would likely then be in his lake making it easier to deal with Ranton by going underwater or by using large scale suiton walls, we also have to ask what is Darui's answer to Daikodan/1000 sharks/waterdome since even in CQC he's likely outmatched and outmuscled by Kisame and it's looking like the only thing going on for him is Ranton. Why is Ranton/Raiton > Iron Sand? Iron Sand is supposed to be fast and hard to block so even if Darui has the means to destroy it it doesn't mean he'll successfully do it. Sasori also has more aoe with his puppets.

10. Deidara in the air can pressure Hiashi with C1 distractions and guided missiles to throw off his defenses, I see that as more likely than him dying to wind palm. Worst case the big boys C3 and C4 if they come out Hiashi is gone. Or Kisame decides to use ninjutsu and wins little difficulty.

11. Problem is it's not really a fair comparison of strength if the opponent isn't aware he's Dan's target. In a 1v1 fight Dan would lose to the Raikage and if he got the chance yo use the soul jutsu his immobile body will be killed. Plus we don't know the limits of his posession abilities and things like "will power" might overcome it or it might be countered by a clever clone feint. Him refilling Tsunade's Byakugo is a romantic moment, I doubt Kishi wanted us to think "he has enough chakra to fill the Byakugo" literally. Many characters received many elements, Kisame has 4 elements. He was in a barrier which means he was defeated, it wasn't implied to be because they couldn't seal him rather it's probably Kishi saving him for the moment Tsunade needs him.


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## Altiora Night (May 29, 2019)

Jigen is likely going to be higher than Momoshiki, or at the very least, on par with him.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2019)

@Shark

1. The meaning is set in the context of taking the Juubi from Obito; so if Madara is able to weaken him and take the Juubi; he’s beaten Obito

2. That’s true, which is why I’m not sure about his placement; but I think we can at least know Koto would work on EMS Sasuke level opponents of as Itachi believed it would as his final triumph card.

3. Minato doesn’t have a BM like Naruto does he only gets the Kurama Avatar; so I think his speed is the same as KCM Minato, who Tobirama vastly out performed. If you want to make the argument for BM Minato you’d need to make it based on Raw power, but I also just think Tobirama has better odds against superior enemies, but I’m open to a discussion about it. 

4. Edo Itachi has knowledge on the paths and pretty much once HG realm is dealt with, which Taijutsu, Genjutsu, and Shuriken Jutsu are perfect for the other paths can largely be taken down by MS spamming as none of them have counters for Amaterasu except Deva it Susnaoo; even Deva can be gamed around the cool down point, while outside CT/CST Pain doesn’t have good odds against Itachi

5. I don’t really except the excuse that all of their fights were high end; Onoki also engaged Deidara and a visibly exhausted Sasuke with Jinton early on. And if we look at how Onoki clear flower tree world instantly with his Jinton I don’t believe any Toad is evading it. As far as fighting indirectly I think depending on the battlefield this could be effective against them, more so Onoki who isn’t a sensor, but it’s not going to work in many situations, as Jinton can clear the field as again it did against flower tree word; so maybe if Jiraiya invaded stone where they couldn’t clear the board and then fell back on these tactics he could win, but I wouldn’t say that makes him better then these 2.

6. The fodder survive was due to Joki Boi not really targeting him and it being an outlier. We saw that Gaara would have died bad he not already set up a clone feint, due to Joki Boi outspeeding even his guard sand; Gaara would have also died other times simply due to the explosion if not for his Ultimate defense. When was it suggest Oil would hurt Gengetsu, the guy is made of oil so I would think that would empower him; and location could help, but Jiraiya still lacks a way to destroy Joki Boi; and therefore I think this match would be at best a draw.

As far as portrayal goes it really depends on how much you want to associate Jiraiya with his fellow Sannin and which thread you want to pull. If we associate him with Tsunade, we could look at the fact that only Onoki was able to face Mu due to Jinton, which implies Mu and Onoki > Tsunade, which we then later see is largely true at least combat wise in the Madara fights. So if you want to say Jiraiya is equal to Tsunade or in a similar ball park you can make the argument that Onoki and Mu (Gengetsu) by proxy are superior.

However if you want to pull the Oro thread you could say he defeated Old Hiruzen whose the strongest Gokage; and Jiraiya is his rival so that puts him at least above Onoki by some kind of margin. However I don’t really subscribe to that as so much if Hiruzen original level has been retcond I find pulling this thread to be dubious. I also think you can make the argument that Onoki May have been considered weaker then Hiruzen due to being old himself with back issues and lost off will, which he seemed to magically get over by the end of WA to face Madara. 

So I dont think there is a great indicator one way or another portrayal. Though I’m open to other view points

7. I think you make a lot of fair points about Itachi being superior to Old Hiruzen and Orochimaru so maybe he should go bellow Oro by a placement 

8. Naruto is better at Senjutsu but handicapped by Kyuubi. Naruto had knowledge, lack of killing intent, and prep against Pain, Jiraiya would have won with those same circumstances per Nagatos own words. 

9. Don’t see why he wouldn’t just amp when his Chidori net resistance from
Ration Amor 


10. I think you have to take into consideration the fact that Darui casually creates 30+ lazers and had a shit ton more chakra left, meaning he could produce far more if necessary and he really only needs one to pierce the hearts of Kakuzu. 

With Kisame it largely would come down to his ability to absorb Black Lightening or not.

And Iron sand, Jiton, is weak to Raiton

11. How does Deidara evade or defend wind palm?

12. Yes which is why I didn’t place him higher because we don’t know how he’d handle himself against stronger enemies, prior to using Spirit ability. But I think the people he’s above now there is a good amount timber for him being able to last long enough to form a single handseal. 

And if Dan was defeated he would have been sealed, all they could was hold him in a barrier which is no different then holding Hiruzen in a barrier like the S4. And Kisame having 4 Elements doesn’t really dissuade how I ranked Dan as Kisame is a strong Ninja. Give him Spirit Technique and I would rate him very highly


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## WorldsStrongest (May 29, 2019)

So we have like 5 pages of content of Turrin legit arguing that the VOTE clash is just as impressive (or mpre so) than Naruto shitting on and vaporizing like half a country being thrown at him?

Wow...

Never mind the fact that Attack Potency and AoE arent related anywhere near a 1:1 ratio...

And the energy it taks to vaporize rock >>>>>> the energy it takes to fragment or pulverize that exact same amount of rock

Let alone SHIT TONS MORE ROCK

Man oh man this is nuts

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (May 29, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> And Madara's Chibaku Tensei aren't bigger than Naruto and Bee's Bijudama crater, so destroying those isn't as significant as people claim.


BS.

Go read the manga.

The huge crater that was surrounding the Shinju roots (the one you are comparing it to the CT) was* not* caused by BM Naruto and B's Bijuu Dama.

It's the Tenpenchi crater.

The Bijuu Dama crater is *much smaller *and is located *underneath* the Shinju.

This is the barrier inside the Bijuu Dama crater.


The Shinju then spawns and it's much much larger than the crater.


The Bijuu Dama crater is located right underneath the Shinju. Look closely.


Each CT was the size of the Shinju stump.
Look how small Hirudora is (which dwarfed island turtle) compared to the crater.

The width of the explosion of the Bijuu Dama Rasen Shuriken was as wide as the Shinju roots.

That means at minimum power required to destroy just one of Madaras CT is the combined Bijuu Dama of Naruto and B.

That also means a single BDRS is >> Naruto and B's combined Bijuu Dama in output.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perfect Susano (May 29, 2019)

I never said anything about the Tenpenchii crater. In the Hirudoru picture it's clear that it would take 3 Shinju stumps spread across to to go from end to end of the Bijudama crater. Since the meteors are only as big as the Shinju stump, it doesn't even take power remotely close to Naruto and Bee's combined Bijudama to destroy them. Even BM Naruto by himself would be able to destroy some with fully charged Bijudamas.


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