# Naruto: The Last vs. Kerrigan and Zeratul



## AgentAAA (Mar 18, 2015)

just checking to see if the HST is finished getting beaten by starcraft yet.

Kerrigan and Zeratul From Starcraft fight end-of-movie Naruto and Toneri from "The Last: Naruto the movie"
Is mindrape still a satisfactory conclusion?


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 18, 2015)

Kerrigan made a psystorm that was seen from space taking up a good size of the planet plus precognition. There is absolutely nothing Narutoverse can bring here


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 18, 2015)

Kerrigan's reactions are still superior, right?

then yeah, mind control is still a satisfactory conclusion


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## hammer (Mar 18, 2015)

Iavodied posting earlier because I was worried i would look like a fool if somehow naruto got another upgrade and became planetary or some shit.

guess not


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 18, 2015)

Nardo has planetary characters actually

Madara casted a planet wide mind rape and binded the whole verse's population 

Kaguya on top of that is also capable of draining chakra from the whole population and by hype she created the planets she uses for her Amenominaka


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## Regicide (Mar 18, 2015)

hammer said:


> Iavodied posting earlier because I was worried i would look like a fool if somehow naruto got another upgrade and became planetary or some shit.


It uhh, actually is.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 18, 2015)

the irony


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## hammer (Mar 18, 2015)

fucking yea it is


I should rephase that and say galaxy level

inb4jplaya


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## AgentAAA (Mar 19, 2015)

Nice Dynamite said:


> Kerrigan made a psystorm that was seen from space taking up a good size of the planet plus precognition. There isn't absolutely nothing Narutoverse can bring here



while on that subject, Where does that sit in terms of rough yield?(I'm assuming you're talking about primal Kerrigan's ascension, right?) Without it the best the SC chars have is continental(with mindrape, BFR, and potentially psi blades being hax)

not looking for a calc, just a rough idea since I don't know where that'd sit.


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

also continental probably


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## AgentAAA (Mar 19, 2015)

ahh, alright.
Either way, looks like HST still can't crawl out of SC's shadow.
I'm very okay with this.


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

Remove mind rape and they "might" have a chance..


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## AgentAAA (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Remove mind rape and they "might" have a chance..



Wormholes and Void prison :3


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## Stermor (Mar 19, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Wormholes and Void prison :3



kamui and seals... they can deal with that easily..

mind rape is their only option... which still works i guess


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> kamui and seals




Pretty sure Naruto and Toneri can't use this.  or did this change from verse vs verse. because that might end up a massive rape in favor of SC.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 19, 2015)

Stermor said:


> kamui and seals... they can deal with that easily..
> 
> mind rape is their only option... which still works i guess



void prison is pretty much just suppressing an opponent with energy.
outside of that OP invis + Instant teleportation in at least Zeratul's case are a concern.

albeit outside of that, since psionic attacks apparently bypass normal dura, Nardo and Tony still would have to use actual energy to block those, non?

Anyhoo, Bit of a difference in scale for the BFR when it comes to wormhole vs. Kamui anyways. One of these things isn't casual while the other is something Kerrigan does a few dozen times a day(though probably less now the leviathans can do it too.)


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 19, 2015)

Kerrigan wormholes can toss things across a sector how is kamui helping


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## Stermor (Mar 19, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> void prison is pretty much just suppressing an opponent with energy.
> outside of that OP invis + Instant teleportation in at least Zeratul's case are a concern.
> 
> albeit outside of that, since psionic attacks apparently bypass normal dura, Nardo and Tony still would have to use actual energy to block those, non?
> ...



uh ye void prison wouldn't really do alot then since naruto kinda does have more physical/energy then pretty much anyone in starcraft.. not even kerrigan can casually throw as much power arround as naruto.. 

invis doesn't really work on somebody like naruto who is quite an accomplished sensor.. and who actually fought guys with teleportation... it is unlikely to suprise or really fuck him over. 

same for bfr.. not the first time he fought against it.. 

mind rape is the only thing he hasn't dealt with at the lvl kerrigan and zeratul can bring..



Nice Dynamite said:


> Kerrigan wormholes can toss things across a sector how is kamui helping



kamui moves across dimensions? your point?? naruto can and has dealt with people who can bfr before... kaguya bfr people more then she moved lol...


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

Er the problem is not the lack of opponent who can cross dimension it's how he defeated them.... and the series showed he didn't beat them when they are using the ability nor can he ignore or not be affected by it if he got hit by it, he was even taken by surprise every time his opponent uses those abilities...

Hiraishin - he can't use it, 2nd and 4th had no problem using it on him...

Kamui - he can't use it, he can't defend against it, and he can't fight someone who can wield it properly.

Obito's kamui was nerf during the fight with naruto, or Kakashi using his own kamui to counter Obito when Naruto was fighting him

as for Kaguya. Kaguya was also nerf when she got beaten. she didn't use it against Nardo, She used it to send sauce away to another battlefield then she never repeated the feat when she can casually do it again as shown the first time. 

Kishi basically forgot all her ability and let them hit her just to make them win.

Seriously that fight would have ended so easily...

Send sauce to another dimension, leave.
Area teleport nardo and his clone to another dimension, leave.
Kill Obito, leave.
kill kakashi, leave.
Return to the real world and wait more or less for a few years or so to let everyone else to die considering she already waited a millenia for her plan to work.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 19, 2015)

That would've been anti-climatic as hell though, even compared to what canon did.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 19, 2015)

So you got proof that Narutoverse can cross systems ( as in solar systems ) by using Kamui? Exactly


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> That would've been anti-climatic as hell though, even compared to what canon did.



It is but that would show that kishi has brain rather than what he wrote which basically made us peg him as a retard/idiot or he could write a more proper way for Nardo and sauce to overcome Kaguya's ability instead of leaving it as CIS and PIS.


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

um...

she actually tried the strategy you've proposed and it didn't work because lolKamui

and she wouldn't be able to kill Obito anyway because lolintang

plus, she really wanted or needed Sasuke's and Naruto's chakra due to her obsession of  taking everything that was taken from her back and all, so no - she wouldn't just leave them to die anyway

plus, yeah her not knowing how to use her powers strategically is her weakness, which makes sense considering that she never had the expirience of using them in battle against opponents close to her in power 

the only real battle expirience she had was against her own sons and that was in her unstable "Jubi" form... a battle she lost


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> she actually tried the strategy you've proposed and it didn't work because lolKamui



actually if she hadn't wasted time with Naruto and his clones. She could have killed Obito, Sakura and Kakashi. While Obito was searching for sauce standing on 1 spot, he wouldn't be able to use lolkamui. Also with byakugan she should have seen whatever they were doing so that whole event is PIS and CIS....

She also didn't really use the area transport against Naruto and his clone, the one she used are the ones that needed to open holes.



> plus, she really wanted or needed Sasuke's and Naruto's chakra due to her obsession of taking everything that was taken from her back and all, so no - she wouldn't just leave them to die anyway



She could always get it when they are too weak to move. she just needed to wait a little bit more... since she already waited that long to complete his plan..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> actually if she hadn't wasted time with Naruto and his clones. She could have killed Obito, Sakura and Kakashi. While Obito was searching for sauce standing on 1 spot, he wouldn't be able to use lolkamui. Also with byakugan she should have seen whatever they were doing so that whole event is PIS and CIS....



uh...

they've hid in Obito's dimension before she even regained her bearings, their presence was gone so fast both she and BZ actually believed that they were Nardo's clones that went poof

also, Obito's intang is thought based, and if Kakashi was able to react to her and go intangible then obviously so could Obito... regardless if he was standing in one spot or not



> She also didn't really use the area transport against Naruto and his clone, the one she used are the ones that needed to open holes.



yeah, because it's pointless

what difference does it make if she was getting pummeled by Nardo's clones on ice planet or the lava planet? Or are you forgetting that her area teleport works by taking everyone around with her?

she needed to escape the onlaught and her only option was opening the rift



> She could always get it when they are too weak to move. she just needed to wait a little bit more... since she already waited that long to complete his plan..



you mean the guys that don't really need to sleep and eat anymore?

yeah that would work


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> uh...
> 
> they've hid in Obito's dimension before she even regained her bearings, their presence was gone so fast both she and BZ actually believed that they were Nardo's clones that went poof
> 
> also, Obito's intang is thought based, and if Kakashi was able to react to her and go intangible then obviously so could Obito... regardless if he was standing in one spot or not



Er he is limited to one use per ability... he can't search sauce and use intang at the same time....



> what difference does it make if she was getting pummeled by Nardo's clones on ice planet or the lava planet? Or are you forgetting that her area teleport works by taking everyone around with her?
> 
> she needed to escape the onlaught and her only option was opening the rift



Er she can teleport to the other world and leave behind nardo in the other dimension... and Nardo can't do shit to her. She had no problem entering the rift she had problem dragging someone else with her into the rift...




> you mean the guys that don't really need to sleep and eat anymore?
> 
> yeah that would work



That only applies to Nardo.. and she could have left him in the lava dimension which he considered a threat to him..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Er he is limited to one use per ability... he can't search sauce and use intang at the same time....



well obviously he would stop searching the moment he gets attacked

but this does not matter, because when Obito was searching on the core planet she was back on the ice planet fighting Nardo, so she didn't even know they were there



> Er she can teleport to the other world and leave behind nardo in the other dimension... and Nardo can't do shit to her? She had no problem entering the rift she had problem dragging someone else with her to the rift...



I'm not getting what you are trying to say

she was getting pummeled, so using the area teleport wouldn't have helped because everyone around her goes with her

if you are implying that she could have created a rift right after and get through it as well, then that's overextending the limitations of her abilities, considering that her area teleportation is one of her most chakra consuming abilities

simply put, she has never done it, so we can't assume she can use both as a combination in a rapid succession

plus, I don't really understand where are you getting this idea that she should have foreseen that her rift ability can be exploited by Kamui, when she didn't even know of Kamui


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> plus, I don't really understand where are you getting this idea that she should have foreseen that her rift ability can be exploited by Kamui, when she didn't even know of Kamui


I am not saying she know it can be exploited by Kamui, I am saying she should have seen every movement they did due to the byakugan..



> if you are implying that she could have created a rift right after and get through it as well, then that's overextending the limitations of her abilities, considering that her area teleportation is one of her most chakra consuming abilities



I am saying she need to do this with Nardo and his clone

and she didn't feel the chakra cost when she did this...

and do this



but instead of going near Naruto she is going away...


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## Stermor (Mar 19, 2015)

Nice Dynamite said:


> So you got proof that Narutoverse can cross systems ( as in solar systems ) by using Kamui? Exactly



isn't it like since it is dimensional travel, and since there wasn't ever shown distance had any effect on it. that you have to proof they can't ? regardless of whether they have shown beyond planetary range?


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> I am not saying she know it can be exploited by Kamui, I am saying she should have seen every movement they did due to the byakugan..



what movement?

she hopes into the rift - lands on the other planet

they follow via Kamui and hop back into Obito's dimension the moment she regained her bearings and sensed them

it's very simple, the moment she sensed them - they were gone, she didn't even have the time to activate the Byakugan


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

Stermor said:


> isn't it like since it is dimensional travel, and since there wasn't ever shown distance had any effect on it. that you have to proof they can't ? regardless of whether they have shown beyond planetary range?



distance has effect on it

that was outlined when they were searching for Sasuke


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> it's very simple, the moment she sensed them - they were gone, she didn't even have the time to activate the Byakugan



Byakugan is active through out the fight she never stopped using it. except when she cried. .


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## LazyWaka (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Byakugan is active through out the fight she never stopped using it. except when she cried. .



No it wasn't. We see that it was not activated when she landed in her dimension.


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

she activated it right after she talked about hagoromo and hamura. 

which was the time she cried



Okay I found what I am looking for....




She should have done this while Naruto was alone...


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## LazyWaka (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> she activated it right after she talked about hagoromo and hamura.
> 
> which was the time she cried





Here she is immediately after she enters her pocket dimension with her Byakugan off.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 19, 2015)

Kishimoto being the sexist prick that he is made her a "to stupid to live" type character.


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

Yea I made a mistake about that. my point still remains though. she could have done the shit I said which was done before that chapter. 

and Naruto and sauce wouldn't be able to do shit and Obito won't be able to help since after one use Obito and Sakura was depleted.


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> she activated it right after she talked about hagoromo and hamura.
> 
> which was the time she cried



and then deactivated and reactivated it several times again

edit: ninja'd by Waka



> Okay I found what I am looking for....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what for?



> and Naruto and sauce wouldn't be able to do shit and Obito won't be able to help since after one use Obito and Sakura was depleted



um... they've opened a couple of portals to other planets before they've found the one with Sauce

and you do realize that the moment they find one of them, he can empower Obito so he could find the other one?


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

Er so She wouldn't need to fight him..

The point is she could have left them on their own away from each other.

Obito is running on fumes so repeating the same feat again wouldn't be possible.

So they search for sauce now they have a missing Nardo. 


Obito has no more chakra.
Sakura used up Byakugo.
Kakashi was useless.
Sauce is stuck with them doing nothing.

Kaguya is back on earth.

Only one who could survive is Nardo due to the tail beast and she could just wait for them to die of old age. or be old enough that they're stuck in bed...



> um... they've opened a couple of portals to other planets before they've found the one with Sauce



Obito needed to linked his kamui to the dimension portal which closed right after rescuing sauce... Kaguya not being their and not using her dimensional power means Obito couldn't link it again...


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Er so She wouldn't need to fight him..
> 
> The point is she could have left them on their own away from each other.
> 
> ...



um..

they've got back to Nardo and Kaguya thanks to Sauce just fine 



> Obito needed to linked his kamui to the dimension portal which closed right after rescuing sauce... Kaguya not being their and not using her dimensional power means Obito couldn't link it again...



um... what?

he only needed that to get to the core planet

the core planet is connected to all others

once there he was opening portals left and right just fine without Kaguya being there using her dimensional powers


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

It is not thanks to sauce.. That's because they just returned to the original dimension they have left...Which was always a part of kamui's ability... 

if Nardo wasn't there and was sent to another dimension they wouldn't be able to get him back without kaguya opening a new hole for Obito to sync his kamui dimension...


> um... what?
> 
> he only needed that to get to the core planet




He sync his kamui dimension to hers..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> That's because they just returned to the original dimension they have left...Which was always a part of kamui's ability...
> 
> if Nardo wasn't there and was sent to another dimension they wouldn't be able to get him back without kaguya opening a new hole for Obito to sync his kamui dimension...



again

when they were searching for Sauce, Obito opened portals to other different planets before finding one with Sauce without Kaguya even being present there just fine

he only needed to sync his Kamui to follow her to the core planet


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> when they were searching for Sauce, Obito opened portals to other different planets before finding one with Sauce without Kaguya even being present there just fine



Because he already was in sync in Kaguya's dimension that he can open holes. Once he returned to the original place the Ice dimension. He couldn't do it again....



> he only needed to sync his Kamui to follow her to the core planet



And he wouldn't be able to do that feat again if Kaguya wasn't there anymore when they returned to the ice dimension...

anyway DT I think you didn't get what I'm trying to say.

My point is once they return to the Ice dimension.

there is no way for them to look for Nardo in another dimension because there won't be a new hole for him to sync with Kaguya's core planet...

And They are returning to that dimension one way or the other since they have no news of what's happening in that dimension...


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Because he already was in sync in Kaguya's dimension that he can open holes. Once he returned to the original place the Ice dimension. He couldn't do it again....
> 
> 
> 
> And he wouldn't be able to do that feat again if Kaguya wasn't there anymore when they returned to the ice dimension...



and your proof for that is?

not to mention why would they return to a planet that doesn't have Nardo on it, when they know that fact since both Nardo and Sauce can sense each other thanks to their yin yang seals?


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> and your proof for that is?



I don't need proof for that you need to prove that he can return to Kaguya's core dimension repeatedly once he left..


Because one way or the other he will be leaving that core dimension and his dimension is not the same as Kaguya's Core dimension...



> not to mention why would they return to a planet that doesn't have Nardo on it, when they know that fact since both Nardo and Sauce can sense each other thanks to their yin yang seals?


Because they didn't know Nardo wasn't there anymore...

also when did Sauce get sensing?


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> I don't need proof for that you need to prove that he can return to Kaguya's core repeatedly once he left?
> 
> Because one way or the other he will be leaving that core dimension and his dimension is not the same as Kaguya's Core dimension...



he doesn't need to return

what he needs is to find one of them, and that one will help find the other one since they both can sense each other even through her dimensional planet thingies


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> he doesn't need to return



Now that's the one you need to prove because you are saying he can access kaguya's dimension endlessly every time he wants...


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> also when did Sauce get sensing?



ever since he got the yin seal he can sense the bearer of the yang seal and vice versa


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

that's not sauce sensing, we already know that Nardo can sense that since the beginning. even before Hagoromo gave the power which was a retcon..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Now that's the one you need to prove because you are saying he can access kaguya's dimension endlessly every time he wants...



he doesn't need to return because once they find one of them, they will open the portal to the planet that has the other one thanks to the fact that both can sense each other

it's not hard to grasp


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

He is still in the core dimension here.. ..

There's also a point to kaguya hanging in the real world leaving them in that dimension. 

so what will they do once they got together and kaguya is nowhere to be found.

my point is kaguya have multiple way to ignore them and wait it out till they are in their deathbed and then take their chakra..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> that's not sauce sensing, we already know that Nardo can sense that since the beginning. even before Hagoromo gave the power which was a retcon..



the second scan has literally Sauce on it thinking "this is where I felt Naruto's chakra the strongest" 





> He is still in the core dimension here..



what?

at least scroll through the pages to grasp the context 



> There's also a point to kaguya hanging in the real world leaving them in that dimension.
> 
> so what will they do once they got together and kaguya is nowhere to be found.



get back to Earth too either thanks to lolKamui or the RS and the kages who were literally sitting there as ghosts and edos waiting to summon them back?


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

either way those are pointless..

Just answer this one. then



> There's also a point to kaguya hanging in the real world leaving them in that dimension.
> 
> so what will they do once they got together and kaguya is nowhere to be found.


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

^ look above


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> get back to Earth too either thanks to lolKamui



If they could do this why didn't they just do it in the first place.. You're overhyping kamui here DT.. 



> the RS and the kages who were literally sitting there as ghosts and edos waiting to summon them back?



And Kaguya who came back first will just ignore them and let them do this?


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## Stermor (Mar 19, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> distance has effect on it
> 
> that was outlined when they were searching for Sasuke



when? they only traveled through different dimension, at no point did we ever get a sign saying so many km south of here is this dimension... 

but feel free to link the scan showing distance..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> If they could do this why didn't they just do it in the first place..



because their goal was to defeat and seal Kaguya, and it is much more safer to do that once you are in another dimension planet thingie considering it involves nukes and creating celestial objects than on a planet that's full of people trapped in IT 



> And Kaguya who came back first will just ignore them and let them do this?



implying that for some reason she would appear right where they are

implying she can do anything to a ghost of her long dead son and his ghostly friends


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

Stermor said:


> when? they only traveled through different dimension, at no point did we ever get a sign saying so many km south of here is this dimension...
> 
> but feel free to link the scan showing distance..


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

She also had the option of staying on sauce dimension instead of staying with the other four and kill sauce you know.. and my point still stand that she could have ended that fight and wait it out amd that Obito can't do shit once that happens.. 



> because their goal was to defeat and seal Kaguya, and it is much more safer to do that once you are in another dimension planet thingie considering it involves nukes and creating celestial objects than on a planet that's full of people trapped in IT



And that doesn't prove that kamui would help them return though.



> implying she can do anything to a ghost of her long dead son and his ghostly friends



She has the rinnengan which has the ability to touch souls...


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> She also had the option of staying on sauce dimension instead of staying with the other four and kill sauce you know..



she wasn't able to kill Nardo 1 on 1

why are you assuming that with Sauce it would have been much easier? 



> and my point still stand that Obito can't do shit once that happens..



once what happens?

once Sauce is killed?



> She has the rinnengan which has the ability to touch souls...



and considering even RM Nardo was able to resist that (though to be fair that was Nagato's) I'm pretty sure so can Hagoromo


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> why are you assuming that with Sauce it would have been much easier?


Because the only reason she couldn't kill nardo is because of the clone..



also Obito wouldn't be able to connect the two since he won't be able to jump to the core planet if Kaguya stayed with sauce..



> I'm pretty sure so can HagoromoI'm pretty sure so can Hagoromo



Hagoromo can, not the other kage's though and Hagoromo has a time limit. 

Anyway as I said before this is pointless

Because.

Your position is that Obito have already jump to the core dimension

My position is Obito wouldn't get the chance to do that. because Kaguya had the option of leaving them alone before that

lolKamui hasn't prove that he can return to earth from inside kaguya's dimension

Nardo and Sauce would remain separated

Kaguya would just waste hagoromo's time limit in the real world and she just need to wait it out till they all are in their death bed and then jumps in to gather the chakra


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Because the only reason she couldn't kill nardo is because of the clone..



Nardo has clones

Sauce has the instantenous body switching 

which one is better? 



> also Obito wouldn't be able to connect the two since he won't be able to jump to the core planet if Kaguya stayed with sauce..



and she should have known about this how? 



> Hagoromo can not the other kage's though and Hagoromo has a time limit.



Hagoromo can desummon them and resummon them in a safer place just fine


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> and she should have known about this how?



My point is she doesn't need to know... she just needs to leave them alone... which was my point from the beginning.

She leaves them alone like she leaved sauce alone... 

Hagoromo is living as a chakra construct all chakra construct has a time limit that was common sense..



> which one is better?



as shown by the series the clone was better...


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> My point is she doesn't need to know... she just needs to leave them alone... which was my point from the beginning.
> 
> She leaves them alone like she leaved sauce alone...



yeah and I've already listed why that's not a good idea



> Hagoromo is living as a chakra construct all chakra construct has a time limit that was common sense..



sure

you know his exact time limit?

he had enough time to wait till the battle was over

so he would have had enough time to resummon them back if Kaguya decided to cut their battle short and just go back to Earth like you've suggested she should have



> as shown by the series the clone was better...



where?



shade0180 said:


> Hagoromo can, not the other kage's though and Hagoromo has a time limit.
> 
> Anyway as I said before this is pointless
> 
> ...



and you do realize that you've constructed this strategy based on the knowledge you have as a reader and are asking why she didn't use it?

how would she even know about Hagoromo in the real world to even think about wasting his time limit?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 19, 2015)

4 pages and the only thing this thread has taught me is Kaguya is an idiot and overuse of emoticons is annoying as fuck.


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> where?



A lot of times haven't you read the manga?


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> yeah and I've already listed why that's not a good idea


She could also send hagoromo to another dimension.. you know...

inb4hagoromo can return to earth..

feats pls


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## LazyWaka (Mar 19, 2015)

What exactly is being debated right now?


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> how would she even know about Hagoromo in the real world to waste his time limit?



She doesn't need to know she just need to return to the real world. then she can send him to the other dimension as well...


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> What exactly is being debated right now?



Me:Kaguya can wait it out till they are in their death bed. trapped in her dimension..

DT: No she can't because: lolkamui


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> She could also send hagoromo to another dimension.. you know...
> 
> inb4hagoromo can return to earth..
> 
> feats pls



feats of her sending ghosts to another dimenion first 



shade0180 said:


> She doesn't need to know she just need to return to the real world. then she can send him to the other dimension as well...



she returns to the real world

Hagoromo notices that

summons Nardo and co back

then what?


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> feats of her sending ghosts to another dimenion first



DT you're just fishing now...



> she returns to the real world
> 
> Hagoromo notices that
> 
> ...


Then she resends all of them to her dimension and return to earth....

and wait it out on earth which she will have no problem doing as shown before...


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 19, 2015)

Just exactly what relevance does that have for this thread?


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> DT: No she can't because: lolkamui



don't distort my argument


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## LazyWaka (Mar 19, 2015)

Didn't the end of the battle imply that Kamui couldn't let them out? They needed RS to summon them back after all.


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> Just exactly what relevance does that have for this thread?



No idea. 

This started as my point about why Naruto can't deal with dimensional ability, in which I gave the fight with kaguya as an example and also what kishi could have done that wouldn't look stupid and then DT nitpicked the example and it escalated... or so...

Also I pointed this whole debate as pointless 2 or 3 times already


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 19, 2015)

Well if someone fed Obito enough chakra there is a chance he might find Earth from Kaguya's dimension. Or he might just go blind trying. But that's not the point to this thread.


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> DT you're just fishing now...



No I'm really not

you are claiming that she can use her space time tehnique on a completely intangible being with no proof whatsoever

meanwhile demanding proof that ghost Hagoromo can return to Earth despite Obito's ghost doing a similar thing - teleporting from the world of the dead to Kaguya's dimension just fine



> Then she resends all of them to her dimension and return to earth....
> 
> and wait it out on earth which she will have no problem doing as shown before...



and Minato with Niidaime teleport them back to the ftg tags on earth

then what?


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

feat of FTG crossing dimension. 



> Well if someone fed Obito enough chakra there is a chance he might find Earth from Kaguya's dimension. Or he might just go blind trying. But that's not the point to this thread.


He needed to be in the core dimension first.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 19, 2015)

Do I need to start deleting posts or can you find your way back on topic without me?


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## LazyWaka (Mar 19, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Well if someone fed Obito enough chakra there is a chance he might find Earth from Kaguya's dimension.



Obito can only access dimensions linked to her core dimension while their. Earth isn't connected from what we know.

All he can do is go back and fourth between the kamui dimension and whatever current dimension he is in without the aid of those special conditions.



DarkTorrent said:


> and Minato with Niidaime teleport them back to the ftg tags on earth
> 
> then what?



It's been heavily implied that these don't work cross dimensionally.


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

We can go back to the topic DT just need to stop.


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Obito can only access dimensions linked to her core dimension while their. Earth isn't connected from what we know.
> 
> All he can do is go back and fourth between the kamui dimension and whatever current dimension he is in without the aid of those special conditions.



he was able to teleport from the realm of the dead to kakashi's location in one of Kaguya's dimension without the link to the core dimension just fine

and earth is connected

that was why she was able to absorb the Earth's population's chakra while being there, remember?





> It's been heavily implied that these don't work cross dimensionally.



when?

they were able to use some obscure summoning with that kind of range thanks to their combined power

why wouldn't they be able to do the same with a tehnique they are actually more proficient with while having even more power added?



> We can go back to the topic DT just need to stop.



you need to stop coming up with strategies based on the knowledge you have as a reader and then ask why the characters haven't used it even though they didn't have the same knowledge


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> he was able to teleport from the realm of the dead to kakashi's location in one of Kaguya's dimension without the link to the core dimension just fine




Because he has chakra inside of kakashi.. which connects them.. which was explained by Minato the first time he saw nardo...



> you need to stop coming up with strategies based on the knowledge you have as a reader and then ask why the characters haven't used it even though they didn't have the same knowledge



Those strategy doesn't even require the knowledge of a reader it's plain and simple.. that was mere common sense and which she can employ herself.

The strategy we are debating about is 

leave them alone in her dimension wait more time to pass.




> she has sensing ability so she would sense hagoromo and the kages ... or even naruto and co when they got back which she wouldn't have problem sending to her dimension again...


^ this is just a plus..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Because he has chakra inside of kakashi.. which connects them.. which was explained by Minato the first time he saw nardo...



which only supports my point that s/t users can teleport through dimensions back to places that has traces of their chakra with enough power

like the ftg tags, or the Shinju's stump that Obito has summoned and should logically have traces of his chakra left, or his lab where the thing that replaced his body part is


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

What support that the dead can go to the places their chakra exist for a limited amount of time? 

because living being and dead being are vastly different from each other......


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> What support that the dead can go to the places their chakra exist for a limited amount of time?
> 
> because living being and dead being are vastly different from each other......



you just said it yourself that Obito's ghost was only able to do just that thanks to traces of his chakra inside Kakashi 

there is also the fact that Hagoromo was able to manifest near Madara's legs for that exact same reason


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> which only supports my point that s/t users can teleport through dimensions back to places that has traces of their chakra with enough power



because he is already dead...  you are applying it to being that have their own body which is two different things..

Obito is a ghost.. FTG users are not...



> there is also the fact that Hagoromo was able to manifest near Madara's legs for that exact same reason



Because Madara had manifested Hagoromo chakra by combining his and hashirama's chakra which was explained in the manga...


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> because he is already dead...  you are applying it to being that have their own body which is two different things..



except you asked:



> What support that the dead can go to the places their chakra exist for a limited amount of time?



.....



> FTG users are not



except the same principle applies to FTG

Minato explained it... a couple of times during the arc


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 19, 2015)

Guys what'cha doing?


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Guys what'cha doing?



arguing about irrelevant shit


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

> .....


I am being sarcastic when I asked that.

Anyway back on Topic Nardo has no way to overcome BFR or Dimensional ability... right now unless Kishi changes that in the 3rd part...

There's no point in sending him in outer space though because he can fly.. and he can breath in outer space as shown in the last... however that works..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

voidprison is more risky because it actually relies on Zeratul's combat speed which if I'm not mistaken is also somewhere in 4 digits, so it opens up a possibility of being blown up into pieces before he can succesfully implement it

not sure about BFR, since I don't really remember the mechanics

Kerrigan's mind control is still the safest bet


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## Vicotex (Mar 19, 2015)

Can he mind fuck a jinchuriki?


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## hammer (Mar 19, 2015)

can't kerrigan just summon the swarm.


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

Not going to help since nardo and Toneri can clone themselves. 

and Nardo's clone has an option of going full bijuu mecha + bijuudama..


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 19, 2015)

Vicotex said:
			
		

> Can he mind fuck a jinchuriki?



Kerrigan is a she and she mind controlled billions of zerg across several solar systems

she also mind fucked Raszagal, one of the most powerful psionics in starcraft, a member of the species that are naturally psionically gifted and communicate via telepathy, use their psi abilities to create shields, weapons and storms of pure psionic (mental) energy etc



			
				hammer said:
			
		

> can't kerrigan just summon the swarm.



the swarm isn't the best option against a guy that can cut a moon in half and the guy that can tank that


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## shade0180 (Mar 19, 2015)

Er I'm talking about the swarm...and yea I agree she/they could rape with mind fuck...  but there's no point in calling the swarm if she will just mind fuck him anyway..

My point is they're not going to help if they are going through him physically or with numbers. though.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 19, 2015)

Stermor said:


> uh ye void prison wouldn't really do alot then since naruto kinda does have more physical/energy then pretty much anyone in starcraft.. not even kerrigan can casually throw as much power arround as naruto..
> 
> invis doesn't really work on somebody like naruto who is quite an accomplished sensor.. and who actually fought guys with teleportation... it is unlikely to suprise or really fuck him over.
> 
> ...



Zeratul's cloak is on an entire other level and is implied to literally cause light to just flat-out not touch him. He's wandered onto an advanced battlecruiser and evaded people with accomplished higher senses like Kerrigan right up until he got into close proximity.(while on a leviathan which like all zerg is specifically keyed to find psionic beings.)

Main issue is void prison is very casual and to my knowledge everything continental and up in Nardo isn't. he could break it, but it's going to slow him down.

Yeah, and Kaguya also didn't use it well.
Getting out of her BFR required sauce to use a lot of chakra and get help, IIRC(or was it Oberto?) while Kerrigan can just casually chuck him into a black hole she has knowledge of. It's not only BFR, it's BFR to a different point in space entirely.




DarkTorrent said:


> voidprison is more risky because it actually relies on Zeratul's combat speed which if I'm not mistaken is also somewhere in 4 digits, so it opens up a possibility of being blown up into pieces before he can succesfully implement it
> 
> not sure about BFR, since I don't really remember the mechanics
> 
> Kerrigan's mind control is still the safest bet


Void prison is very fast, so I wouldn't be too concerned, particularly since he can spam a short-range teleport to help with that.

She literally makes a wormhole.
powerscaled off of a character weaker than a weaker version of her.
very casual and quick power considering she was doing it for years every single time the swarm needed interplanetary travel.



Stermor said:


> isn't it like since it is dimensional travel, and since there wasn't ever shown distance had any effect on it. that you have to proof they can't ? regardless of whether they have shown beyond planetary range?



no, when we're dealing with BFR(particularly one that probably is limited to Kaka and Oberto's sensing) you have to show the max range in realspace they can push that shit to.
Kerrigan regularly moves things around a good portion of the galaxy with hers.



shade0180 said:


> Er I'm talking about the swarm...and yea I agree she/they could rape with mind fuck...  but there's no point in calling the swarm if she will just mind fuck him anyway..
> 
> My point is they're not going to help if they are going through him physically or with numbers. though.



I'm not so sure. Leviathans exist in the dozens and are each continental with bio-plasmids, and there's a fair amount of Hax in the swarm arsenal.
Zerg virus up Nardo and Tony and I imagine they'd be less problem.

swarm is a different debate though.


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## Alita (Mar 20, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> um...
> 
> she actually tried the strategy you've proposed and it didn't work because lolKamui
> 
> ...


I thought she was in the same form we saw in the naruto and sasuke fight that she was in her fight with her sons.


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## DarkTorrent (Mar 20, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> I thought she was in the same form we saw in the naruto and sasuke fight that she was in her fight with her sons.



her sons didn't even know it was her and believed her to be the Juubi that wanted it's chakra back


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## Stermor (Mar 20, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Zeratul's cloak is on an entire other level and is implied to literally cause light to just flat-out not touch him. He's wandered onto an advanced battlecruiser and evaded people with accomplished higher senses like Kerrigan right up until he got into close proximity.(while on a leviathan which like all zerg is specifically keyed to find psionic beings.)



light manipulation is basic genjutsu (bunshin no jutsu) not really anything special at all..  but unles unless it also manipulates nature's chakra in the world aswell as completely cancel out emotions he is not escaping Naruto senses.. 



AgentAAA said:


> Main issue is void prison is very casual and to my knowledge everything continental and up in Nardo isn't. he could break it, but it's going to slow him down.



ye again naruto should still have no problem.. top tier haven't really shown much problems dropping that kind of power or more. 



AgentAAA said:


> Yeah, and Kaguya also didn't use it well.
> Getting out of her BFR required sauce to use a lot of chakra and get help, IIRC(or was it Oberto?) while Kerrigan can just casually chuck him into a black hole she has knowledge of. It's not only BFR, it's BFR to a different point in space entirely.



ye and then she just throws in a clone.. really kerrigan bfr is the same deal as obito's or whatever.. it can work ofcourse, but naruto can and has dealt with it before... 



AgentAAA said:


> Void prison is very fast, so I wouldn't be too concerned, particularly since he can spam a short-range teleport to help with that.



ye again this is pretty much something naruto has already dealt with it, and he should have been able to get out.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 23, 2015)

Stermor said:


> light manipulation is basic genjutsu (bunshin no jutsu) not really anything special at all..  but unles unless it also manipulates nature's chakra in the world aswell as completely cancel out emotions he is not escaping Naruto senses..


Which is fine, but it ALSO kept him from the psychic senses of people with planetary+ awareness and the mental ability to keep track of billions of zerg, along with the advanced sensors of Battlecruisers which can do things like detect FTL ships in warp space and have an AU range on their sensors.
Zeratul is hidden from senses and one of the basic protoss things to control their power is to hide their emotions as well.
His cloak's got the feats.



> ye again naruto should still have no problem.. top tier haven't really shown much problems dropping that kind of power or more.


I'd like to see the point where he managed to deal with a movement seal using his power with continental stats.
To my knowledge Nardo's stats don't extend to his physical strikes so if his movement's sealed by this he could be in for problems.



> ye and then she just throws in a clone.. really kerrigan bfr is the same deal as obito's or whatever.. it can work ofcourse, but naruto can and has dealt with it before...


Difference is Kerrigan's AoE for the warp is ridiculous and she can literally just spam them. She doesn't need contact or close proximity, just to make it appear under him.

The huge difference between Kerrigan's BFR and Obito's is the fact that her's is a wide AoE that she can cast anywhere unrestricted while Obito needs contact and time.
Frankly Kerrigan can at the least match Naruto wormhole-to-clone. she can do it dozens of times on a casual and daily basis


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## LazyWaka (Mar 23, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> I'd like to see the point where he managed to deal with a movement seal using his power with continental stats.
> To my knowledge Nardo's stats don't extend to his physical strikes so if his movement's sealed by this he could be in for problems.



Not sure if this is enough, but Naruto Physically overpowered the attack that cut the moon in half (which yielded moon level results). That's his best quantifiable feat actually.


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## Stermor (Mar 23, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Which is fine, but it ALSO kept him from the psychic senses of people with planetary+ awareness and the mental ability to keep track of billions of zerg, along with the advanced sensors of Battlecruisers which can do things like detect FTL ships in warp space and have an AU range on their sensors.
> Zeratul is hidden from senses and one of the basic protoss things to control their power is to hide their emotions as well.
> His cloak's got the feats.



hiding emotions is not enough.. he needs to not have them. but i guess we don't really know how it would stack up.. naruto cleary had no trouble with sensing anything but there is nothing larger then a planet in that world. also doesn't equivalence rule give zeratul a chakra system? then there is the fact that he can sense everything with natures chakra, which will detect him for sure.. 

the difference in how they sense/hide should prevent invis from doing anything. 




AgentAAA said:


> I'd like to see the point where he managed to deal with a movement seal using his power with continental stats.
> To my knowledge Nardo's stats don't extend to his physical strikes so if his movement's sealed by this he could be in for problems.



see waka's post. 

Difference is Kerrigan's AoE for the warp is ridiculous and she can literally just spam them. She doesn't need contact or close proximity, just to make it appear under him. 



AgentAAA said:


> The huge difference between Kerrigan's BFR and Obito's is the fact that her's is a wide AoE that she can cast anywhere unrestricted while Obito needs contact and time.
> Frankly Kerrigan can at the least match Naruto wormhole-to-clone. she can do it dozens of times on a casual and daily basis



uhm aoe wise well tailed beast size is perfectly doable.. but kerrigan can probebly make them larger i guess.. and obito's kamui is a mental ability aswell, so not seeing any change there.. 

dozens and matching naruto clones... lol 

unless she actually makes then for every zerg, she is not really matching naruto in clones... 

not that all of this matters since mind rape naruto can't compete with kerrigan.


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## shade0180 (Mar 23, 2015)

> Difference is Kerrigan's AoE for the warp is ridiculous and she can literally just spam them. She doesn't need contact or close proximity, just to make it appear under him.


Nardo can fly, so making it appear under him is pointless. Unless, of course it can suck him up. Which means there's no point letting it appear under him. because, whatever position it is the warp will suck him up..
just saying


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## AgentAAA (Mar 23, 2015)

Stermor said:


> hiding emotions is not enough.. he needs to not have them. but i guess we don't really know how it would stack up.. naruto cleary had no trouble with sensing anything but there is nothing larger then a planet in that world. also doesn't equivalence rule give zeratul a chakra system? then there is the fact that he can sense everything with natures chakra, which will detect him for sure..
> 
> the difference in how they sense/hide should prevent invis from doing anything.


what? You cant use equivalence then immediately disregard it featwise.
Zeratul hides from people with similarly powerful sensing all the time.
hiding them from beings beyond Nardo in sensing is enough 



see waka's post. 

Difference is Kerrigan's AoE for the warp is ridiculous and she can literally just spam them. She doesn't need contact or close proximity, just to make it appear under him. 



uhm aoe wise well tailed beast size is perfectly doable.. but kerrigan can probebly make them larger i guess.. and obito's kamui is a mental ability aswell, so not seeing any change there.. 


> dozens and matching naruto clones... lol
> unless she actually makes then for every zerg, she is not really matching naruto in clones...
> 
> not that all of this matters since mind rape naruto can't compete with kerrigan.


she does. 
dozens of several hundred meter long wormholes without even the smallest amount of strain on her part even as QoB.
primal by powerscaling is stronger.
few thousand with heavy strain isnt a biggie.
'specially with precog for accuracy.

obitos kamui required contact for bfr. thats what gave minato a chance.
kerrigan doesnt even have to move.

TBB arent a good comparison given they have charge time and a path to move on. wormhole just appears where kerrigan decides they do



shade0180 said:


> Nardo can fly, so making it appear under him is pointless. Unless, of course it can suck him up. Which means there's no point letting it appear under him. because, whatever position it is the warp will suck him up..
> just saying



she can make it directly where hes standing. thatd be more problematic
also has a short sucking distance though


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## shade0180 (Mar 23, 2015)

anyway....



> she can make it directly where hes standing.



Still doesn't change anything since he can fly....



> also has a short sucking distance though



This changes things..  how strong is the suction? 

Either way I still don't see how Nardo wins.



> obitos kamui required contact for bfr. thats what gave minato a chance.
> kerrigan doesnt even have to move.



Er no it doesn't need contact... What gave a chance to Minato is Obito needing to be physically solid to attack him.... not the need for contact...


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## AgentAAA (Mar 23, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> anyway....





> Still doesn't change anything since he can fly...


.


> This changes things..  how strong is the suction?
> 
> Either way I still don't see how Nardo wins.


not quite sure - Kerrigan generally uses it to move around a moving swarm and it's an inconsistent pull, going from "not pulling on the being at all" to "pulling them in in a second". with only a meters difference in proximity.
though maybe wormholes do work that way, not sure if they would have a constant pull or not like more traditional suction.
range is a few dozen meters and one could at the least assume it pulls with the same force she herself can exert casually.
again, helps she can just make Naruto the epicenter of it, turn it on, then turn it off.



> Er no it doesn't need contact... What gave a chance to Minato is Obito needing to be physically solid to attack him.... not the need for contact...


that so? I recall he was specifically avoiding being touched by obito in order to not get BFRed, which would also involve being solid. matter of fact Obito uses this, if I recall correctly, in order to get the final hit in, Minato left himself open in order to get Obito to attempt a grab, only to flash behind him.
What means does Obito use to BFR, in that case?


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## shade0180 (Mar 24, 2015)

his eyes.... you need to be at point blank range of his body...


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## AgentAAA (Mar 24, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> his eyes.... you need to be at point blank range of his body...


ahh, alright.
That's still a much shorter range than Kerrigan's, however.


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## Stermor (Mar 24, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> what? You cant use equivalence then immediately disregard it featwise.
> Zeratul hides from people with similarly powerful sensing all the time.
> hiding them from beings beyond Nardo in sensing is enough



uhm why not? he has no feats of hiding in that way... just hiding from other sensors in someway even if they are arguable more powerful doesn't mean somebody can find him in a way he has never shown to be able to hide... 

that said kaguya could sense everybody on a planet, and even in her dimensions. so better sensing is arguable.. 

that said it is bullshit to just dump all methods of sensing and detection together.. there are like dozens of different methods in the naruto world alone. some can't really be scaled..


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