# Kishimoto is a coward.



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.

Can we all agree on this now?

Just when we get an "and all hope is lost" moment, 40,000 fodder shinobi show up to save the day. Really? There is no suspense in this war. It's a total joke. 

And was anyone else expecting all the kages to appear too, magically healed? 

Fuck this manga.


Edit, for the confused: KILLER BEE DIDN'T DIE. *KILLER BEE DIDN'T DIE* when half of the Telegrams last week all thought he would. This chapter proved that he didn't and never will. There. I explained it for all those who missed that part of the chapter.

Edit2: Wrote this elsewhere but very relevant:



PikaCheeka said:


> This is exactly the problem and I fully admit it (in regards tp caring too much).
> 
> You can't be disappointed about something if you don't care about it.
> 
> ...


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## Rosi (Nov 28, 2012)

that was pathetic and too cheesy


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## Klue (Nov 28, 2012)

At least we no longer have to hear the "where are the rookies," complaint.


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## azn7136 (Nov 28, 2012)

Inb4 Juubi destroys the Shinobi Alliance.


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## Rainbird (Nov 28, 2012)

This is news, how? We know Kishimoto likes his sappy, feel-good happy endings. We knew this in Part I when Neji and Chouji miraculously survived against the Sound 4. Anyone who didn't catch on then should have gotten a clue when Nagato revived half of Konoha because Naruto gave him a book review. 

Go read Berserk.


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## Escargon (Nov 28, 2012)

Good, let the hatred flow within you. Seriously i wish the alliance never showed up.


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## Annabella (Nov 28, 2012)

Unless they're already in the genjutsu and Naruto is imagining the reinforcements
But seriously you're right, it's all very boring Another chapter and the juubi hasn't killed anyone.


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## Axekick (Nov 28, 2012)

So much potential for drama, wasted.

After the rescue Sasuke arc in part 1 though, I gave up on him ever killing anyone meaningful.


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## 8Apedemak8 (Nov 28, 2012)

I am so tired of this fight there's no way any named character is going to die...


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Rainbird said:


> This is news, how? We know Kishimoto likes his sappy, feel-good happy endings. We knew this in Part I when Neji and Chouji miraculously survived against the Sound 4. Anyone who didn't catch on then should have gotten a clue when Nagato revived half of Konoha because Naruto gave him a book review.
> 
> Go read Berserk.



It's really gone to the point of no return now though.

Now if we're lucky, maybe Tsunade might have to use a cane for the rest of her life, but I'd be leery of expecting anything else.

And FEEL GOOD? How the fuck does this make anyone feel good?


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## shintebukuro (Nov 28, 2012)

It's a shift in momentum.


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## Skywalker (Nov 28, 2012)

Exactly why it's better to keep the expectations low.


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## Maleficent (Nov 28, 2012)

Totally and utterly anti-climactic.

I hope jyuubi mows them all down for standing right in front of it. [/wishful thinking]


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## Skaddix (Nov 28, 2012)

yes death please still better then fairy tail at least good guys lose fights.


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## Revolution (Nov 28, 2012)

Sasuke is the only one who has to hurt.


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 28, 2012)

See I would literally be sucking Kishi's dick if come next chapter the Juubi annihilates the entire alliance but there's no way that'll ever happen.

So dumb.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Maleficent said:


> Totally and utterly anti-climactic.
> 
> I hope jyuubi mows them all down for standing right in front of it. [/wishful thinking]



Instant forum breakage if Naruto had redirected the Juubi's beam right into the Alliance and all of them were incinerated.

Then Madara just goes "...Oh well."


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## jgalt7 (Nov 28, 2012)

maybe next chapter, kishi will go on a rampage like kubo in bleach.....

i mean look at all those fodders....something's got to give....i mean there's a fucking giant monster that does a black kamehameha wave for pete's sake.


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## Garfield (Nov 28, 2012)

I TOLD YOU SHIKAMARU WILL SAVE THE DAY T^T I'm telling you, this was all his plan!


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## Maleficent (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Instant forum breakage if Naruto had redirected the Juubi's beam right into the Alliance and all of them were incinerated.
> 
> Then Madara just goes "...Oh well."



Nah. We can't have that. After all, bad guys must always find something of themselves in the good guys and then be _swayed_ by it later on! It's like... poetry! It repeats!


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## Axekick (Nov 28, 2012)

jgalt7 said:


> maybe next chapter, kishi will go on a rampage like kubo in bleach.....



He didn't have the balls to kill Neji, Chouji, Tsunade (Pain), Hinata, ANY of the Gokage (so far)... hell I'm surprised J-man stayed dead.

It's just not happening.


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## BatoKusanagi (Nov 28, 2012)

Well, the alliance is still in a horrible situation. Now if no one between all those fodder dies. I'll agree kishi is a coward.


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## Escargon (Nov 28, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> See I would literally be sucking Kishi's dick if come next chapter the Juubi annihilates the entire alliance but there's no way that'll ever happen.
> 
> So dumb.



For once i agree with a Tobitofan. Please just kill them right off. Damn annoying flies.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

People are actually 1-starring this thread. Like they're happy with a fictional "war" where nobody dies.



BatoKusanagi said:


> Well, the alliance is still in a horrible situation. Now if no one between all those fodder dies. I'll agree kishi is a coward.



More no-name fodder characters die? Nope. Don't give a shit. They don't count.


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 28, 2012)

Really though this seems to be more of a problem with WSJ being aimed at kids, so you can't have too much death.

Same reason no one ever dies in Bleach.


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## Hazuki (Nov 28, 2012)

naruto 20 years old talk with his friend :

naruto  : " long time ago it was the real war world for the first time in my life , it was horrible"

friend : really ??  holly shit,  war is bad after all... i guess you have lost lots of friend 

naruto : "hum no they were just foldder like you .."

friend : " son of b.. of shonen.."


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## Webbmaster62 (Nov 28, 2012)

jgalt7 said:


> maybe next chapter, kishi will go on a rampage like kubo in bleach.....
> 
> i mean look at all those fodders....something's got to give....i mean there's a fucking giant monster that does a black kamehameha wave for pete's sake.



Even Kubo softened it up. We just lost the big guy and his vice. That's basically it. The page was drawn good and I know it took him a bit to get it done but still..if he's trying to make a point that the new generation will take over and keep up the fight, this was the wrong way of doing it after we saw high HIGH TOP TIER guys get taken down like flies...Look at Gai sensei!! Aww well, his manga...and we'll continue to read it cause he's already drawn us into it. Waiting for Sasuke to save the day and Sakura to open her legs the minute she sees him.


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## Escargon (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> People are actually 1-starring this thread. Like they're happy with a fictional "war" where nobody dies.



Propably Kishi whos lurking around this forum. Everytime i made Obito thread discussing about things that made no sense someone would instantly arrive and 1 star rate it


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## corsair (Nov 28, 2012)

I wish we had the old Kyuubi back and he would just "accidentally" kill all of them.


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## Ryopus (Nov 28, 2012)

well 50k ninjas died on the first day, plus the ones killed by Madara and fake Zetsus.


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## Misoxeny (Nov 28, 2012)

Ryopus said:


> well 50k ninjas died on the first day, plus the ones killed by Madara and fake Zetsus.



Yeah, fodders.

If no important goodguys die in this war, I will be damn disappointed.


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## limbo Kakashi (Nov 28, 2012)

Cheesy approach is cheesy.


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## corsair (Nov 28, 2012)

Ryopus said:


> well 50k ninjas died on the first day, plus the ones killed by Madara and fake Zetsus.



It was a big loss for all of us.
Who did not cry when Foddernin #139 didn't make it? Who did not mourn Fodderzuki when he was entirely offpaneld and never mentioned again? Who does not remember all the names of the guys that never had names other than "fodder"?
Everyone. Nobody gave a shit. Not even the guys in the manga.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Really though this seems to be more of a problem with WSJ being aimed at kids, so you can't have too much death.
> 
> Same reason no one ever dies in Bleach.



That isn't really an excuse. He had no problem with Madara ripping people to pieces earlier, though they'll all probably be fine.

Even if Kishimoto didn't want to write much death, he could at least create situations where the good guys lost more often, or when Naruto was actually in danger. 

There were several ways he could have carried this battle out with the good guys losing. Instead he just added 40,000 fodder to the fight just so that wouldn't happen.


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## Zhariel (Nov 28, 2012)

Of course he's a coward, I never expected him to do anything but this.


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## Deana (Nov 28, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Really though this seems to be more of a problem with WSJ being aimed at kids, so you can't have too much death.
> 
> Same reason no one ever dies in Bleach.


This! Some of the characters that showed up will probably get killed but none will be of the rookie 8 so you guys might as well get over that wet dream right now.

They just now made it to the battlefield where Madara is.  There is noway he isn't going to troll someone.


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## SacredX (Nov 28, 2012)

Just last chapter people were complaining how the Kyuubi was going to have infinite chakra and constantly restore everyone's chakra endlessly.  The very next chapter we're shown that is not the case and the chakra beast Kurama actually ran out of chakra.

I'm doubting the next chapter will show the alliance beating down the Juubi with a "happy ending gg."  More like even together they probably can't do much of a damn (assuming 'That Jutsu' isn't what Naruto's referring to) against that deadly Trio who referred to Naruto & Co as flies.

I'm very much expecting (though not necessarily desiring) at least one major death this war as well.  So far the top candidates are probably Tsunade, Gai, and Oonoki.


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## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

I hate the Alliance.


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## Max Thunder (Nov 28, 2012)

Guarantee the Kages bar Tsunade will appear in the battlefield no more than 10 chapters from now...


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Rios said:


> I hate the Alliance.



dur dur dur

Yeeeeep.


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## shintebukuro (Nov 28, 2012)

It's been very clear for a long time now that this war was not going to feature any pointless deaths. 

Funny how the author has established that this war he's drawing has a different purpose than what you wanted, yet you continue to criticize it for not magically changing into what you thought it would be about 95 chapters into it. 


			
				PikaCheeka said:
			
		

> Even if Kishimoto didn't want to write much death, he could at least create situations where the good guys lost more often, or when Naruto was actually in danger.



You don't recall any scenarios where the shift of momentum was in the villain's favor?



> There were several ways he could have carried this battle out with the good guys losing. Instead he just added 40,000 fodder to the fight just so that wouldn't happen.



We've known the alliance has been on their way now for like 4 and a half months now.



			
				First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> See I would literally be sucking Kishi's dick if come next chapter the Juubi annihilates the entire alliance but there's no way that'll ever happen.
> 
> So dumb.



Yeah, your wish is pretty dumb. Let me know when something like that happens in any shounen, ever.


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> That isn't really an excuse. He had no problem with Madara ripping people to pieces earlier, though they'll all probably be fine.



He doesn't seem to have a problem with having them get beat up (Kakashi, Gai, even Bee this chapter) he just can't cross that last barrier and actually kill them off.



> Even if Kishimoto didn't want to write much death, he could at least create situations where the good guys lost more often, or when Naruto was actually in danger.
> 
> There were several ways he could have carried this battle out with the good guys losing. Instead he just added 40,000 fodder to the fight just so that wouldn't happen.



This is supposed to be "The Last Battle", the one the good guys cannot lose no matter what, so that kind of thing is to be expected.

But I do agree, it feels like there's no tension whatsoever, despite this being the climactic battle.


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## Kuromaku (Nov 28, 2012)

If only the first few pages of the next chapter featured pep talks all around. People going "we can do it!" Good guys looking like they're about to kick ass. They give it their best shot, hitting the bad guys with every single little thing they've got, and then some.

Then the Juubi bats aside their best shot with its finger. It proceeds to swat them like flies, eats Bee, reaches an even closer state to perfection, then decides to fuck off somewhere having grown bored.

If only.


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## Maleficent (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> That isn't really an excuse. He had no problem with Madara ripping people to pieces earlier, though they'll all probably be fine.



Not to mention Obito's rampage in the Tobi-suit. That was some Junji Ito shit right there.



PikaCheeka said:


> There were several ways he could have carried this battle out with the good guys losing. Instead he just added 40,000 fodder to the fight just so that wouldn't happen.



The ultimate irony would be if Sasuke somehow ended up being the only one dying. Oh ho ho ho.

I cherish my angst-filled pipe dreams.


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Yeah, your wish is pretty dumb. Let me know when something like that happens in any shounen, ever.



"It's not shit writing because it's Shonen."~


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## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> It's been very clear for a long time now that this war was not going to feature any pointless deaths.
> 
> Funny how the author has established that this war he's drawing has a different purpose than what you wanted, yet you continue to criticize it for not magically changing into what you thought it would be about 95 chapters into it.
> 
> ...



This...

Funny how so many people hate everything that is going on in the manga yet sit online for hours every week waiting for it to come out...


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 28, 2012)

Grendel said:


> This...
> 
> Funny how so many people hate everything that is going on in the manga yet sit online for hours every week waiting for it to come out...



Good thing I can multi-task otherwise I'd truly be living a pitiful existence.


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## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Good thing I can multi-task otherwise I'd truly be living a pitiful existence.



Not the point...why waste anytime on something you don't like or that is "shit"

Not liking something is fine but some of these people bitch every week about how this sucks yet never fail to be here the second it comes out...it's perplexing...


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## Csdabest (Nov 28, 2012)

Bleach is worse. We had a character damn near confirmed dead. Final words. Sword broken. Everything. But nooooo. Bitch is still alive. It broke my heart when i thought he died. But my emotions were played with.

No one with anytype of panel time on the good guys is dying.


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## shintebukuro (Nov 28, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> "It's not shit writing because it's Shonen."~



Judge it within the context of its genre.

Do you judge comedy movies for their character development and depth?


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## Arles Celes (Nov 28, 2012)

Kishimoto: Come on, this is only a war!! Why are you expecting any innocent good guys to die? Yeah, I will kill all villains because I want the end of this war to be exciting, epic, and unpredictable!! I bet no one expects me to kill neither Madara or Obito!!! And converting Obito??!! How did you guys found out about that incredible twist that I was planning to use in order to amaze everyone?? Can you guys see the future or what??!!


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## Max Thunder (Nov 28, 2012)

The Uchiha squad only has 2 ninjas left + one monster lol what a joke...

So basically the *Alliance's kill count* is as follows,

100,000 Zetsu

7 swordsmen

Hanzo, Chiyo, Kimimaro

Sasori, Deidara, Nagato, Kakuzu

The previous 7 jins

3rd Raikage, Muu, Fourth Kazekage and the Second Mizukage

*Uchiha squad kill count*:

Few fodder

the 5 Kages - unconfirmed


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## limbo Kakashi (Nov 28, 2012)

Rios said:


> I hate the Alliance.



They're the lacklustre side of this unrealistic war. We have Juubi plus a rikudo Madara in one place. For pete's sake;  someone dear has got to fucking die.


90% of their collective dialogue would be no less than ''i believe in you naruto''..


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## Suibi (Nov 28, 2012)

I still believe in Kishi (and his love toward the Uchiha). 

I think it will be more enjoy to see the alliance army get trolled and curpstomped shortly after arrived and joined the fray with "we gonna win" attitude.

We have seen this before, with 5 kages grand entrance.


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## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

Grendel said:


> Not the point...why waste anytime on something you don't like or that is "shit"
> 
> Not liking something is fine but some of these people bitch every week about how this sucks yet never fail to be here the second it comes out...it's perplexing...



Learn what the word "disappointed" means. It usually comes in toe with something you used to like.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Judge it within the context of its genre.
> 
> Do you judge comedy movies for their character development and depth?



Considering the fact that several people in this thread have already brought up Bleach (for good or bad), and hundreds of posters in other threads have talked about OP, even saying this is bad for Naruto.

We can only defend Kishi so much.



Grendel said:


> Not the point...why waste anytime on something you don't like or that is "shit"
> 
> Not liking something is fine but some of these people bitch every week about how this sucks yet never fail to be here the second it comes out...it's perplexing...



Then don't bitch about us bitching. Problem solved. Why can't people figure out how stupid they sound when they go into a bitching thread and cry about it?


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## DragonOfChoas (Nov 28, 2012)

Next chapter everyone bar Naruto will die, only for Obito to revive them afterwards.


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 28, 2012)

Grendel said:


> Not the point...why waste anytime on something you don't like or that is "shit"
> 
> Not liking something is fine but some of these people bitch every week about how this sucks yet never fail to be here the second it comes out...it's perplexing...



Because I can derive enjoyment out of some aspects of it.

I have been posting less lately though so who knows. If Obito gets TnJ'd like it's looking like I might finally be able to drop this cancer of a series.



Csdabest said:


> Bleach is worse. We had a character damn near confirmed dead. Final words. Sword broken. Everything. But nooooo. Bitch is still alive. It broke my heart when i thought he died. But my emotions were played with.
> 
> No one with anytype of panel time on the good guys is dying.



See I actually felt like there was a good chance that Byakuya was going to die, even though he didn't.

If BLEACH can create that tension and Naruto can't what the fuck does that tell you?



shintebukuro said:


> Judge it within the context of its genre.
> 
> Do you judge comedy movies for their character development and depth?



A good work can succeed despite whatever limitations its genre imposes.

Fact is, there is zero tension in this fight right now. Despite the infinite power of the Juubi, no one is the slightest bit worried about any of the characters being in any kind of danger, because they might as well not be.

That is a failure any way you spin it.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Kuromaku said:


> If only the first few pages of the next chapter featured pep talks all around. People going "we can do it!" Good guys looking like they're about to kick ass. They give it their best shot, hitting the bad guys with every single little thing they've got, and then some.
> 
> Then the Juubi bats aside their best shot with its finger. It proceeds to swat them like flies, eats Bee, reaches an even closer state to perfection, then decides to fuck off somewhere having grown bored.
> 
> If only.



If only indeed. We'd all pack into a plane, hunt Kishi down, and throw him a big party.


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## Kezone (Nov 28, 2012)

The manga will wrap up soon methinks. All of the shinobi will band together, Naruto will become Hokage finally, Sasuke will return, all shinobi that died this war will be revived a la asspull no jutsu.

and the last panel of the manga will be Obito and Madara gloating that Moons-eye plan worked, and the world is stuck in eternal genjutsu.


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## Somnus (Nov 28, 2012)

I admit, I was expecting the Kages to appear and give some lame speech.

This war, was one of the worst and most boring wars I've read in a manga.


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## Reddan (Nov 28, 2012)

Rios said:


> Learn what the word "disappointed" means. It usually comes in toe with something you used to like.



I am disappointed with the lack of deaths in the war, but there is a difference between discussing the weaknesses and plain whining, because the story went a different direction and being desperate to find fault wherever you can. A lot of people are just angry the manga did not go the way they wanted, rather than the errors made by Kishimoto.  At the end of the day it is his vision, his story. If you think he irrevocably destroyed the story then stop reading.


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## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Considering the fact that several people in this thread have already brought up Bleach (for good or bad), and hundreds of posters in other threads have talked about OP, even saying this is bad for Naruto.
> 
> We can only defend Kishi so much.
> 
> ...



Not crying in fact just view it as odd...but yeah you're the only one allowed to express your opinion...

Ohh and rios being disappointed is one of thing but eventually you move on...continuing the same pattern of disappointment week after week and expecting something different is pretty close to insanity...


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

^ What's weird is that you have made the effort to post here *four or five times now *about how _we_ are wasting our time. 





arednad said:


> *I am disappointed with the lack of deaths in the war*, but there is a difference between discussing the weaknesses and plain whining, because the story went a different direction and being desperate to find fault wherever you can. *A lot of people are just angry the manga did not go the way they wanted*, rather than the errors made by Kishimoto.  At the end of the day it is his vision, his story. If you think he irrevocably destroyed the story then stop reading.



Actually, most of us are also disappointed with the lack of deaths in the war and are fed up with it. Don't bother acting superior when you probably feel the same way as at least half of the powers in this thread.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Nov 28, 2012)

I agree with you. 
One of the good guys should die.

Edit: not one of them but several of them.


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## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Nov 28, 2012)

At least Kubo did somehing


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## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

arednad said:


> I am disappointed with the lack of deaths in the war, but there is a difference between discussing the weaknesses and plain whining, because the story went a different direction and being desperate to find fault wherever you can. A lot of people are just angry the manga did not go the way they wanted, rather than the errors made by Kishimoto.  At the end of the day it is his vision, his story. If you think he irrevocably destroyed the story then stop reading.



Are you the local authority on what is whining/bitching and what is a constructive criticism?


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## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

Don't remember saying posting on a forum being a waste of time...actually that is in no way relevant to what I said...I am not saying anything negative about being here for release I am calling bullshit on all the complaints from people that spend way too much time one some thing they apparently hate...

Thing is you never hesitate to post in forums you don't agree with...


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## Impact (Nov 28, 2012)

Do people even appreciate kishi work anymore? Some of you guys are complaining to damn much.


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## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

Inpactedblaze said:


> Do people even appreciate kishi work anymore? Some of you guys are complaining to damn much.



I appreciate most of his earlier work, like the whole part 1 and fights like Sasuke/Deidara.

This war however doesnt deserve any support.


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## Reddan (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Actually, most of us are also disappointed with the lack of deaths in the war and are fed up with it. Don't bother acting superior when you probably feel the same way as at least half of the powers in this thread.



The lack of deaths hardly relates to this chapter. Why not bring it up when Edo Tensei ended or the kages survived? We already knew KNEW the alliance was converging at this battle. We KNEW they had all survived. Did you really think any of the heroes would die before the Alliance arrived? Even if Kishimoto did intend to kill them, don't you think it would be better writing to kill them with their friends around? So why complain about it now?

That said the war has been disappointing on the death front and even on all the battles/character interactions we missed out on. I had hoped for far more characters to die; namely Raikage, Tsunade, Onoki, Bee, Gai and one of the rookies. I even expected all of them to die except one of the rookies.

That said Kishimoto has actually killed more relevant, important, good characters than most stories of this ilk. Already in the story he has killed Haku, Hiruzen, Asuma, Jiraiya and Itachi. To start calling him a coward considering what he has already done is uncalled for.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

I like how in threads like this, the first two pages are usually full of people agreeing. After that, the Kishi apologists come flooding in.

People should notice the pattern. All of us diehard followers are the ones waiting up all night and/or checking our computers every two minutes for the chapter, so we're always the first ones in the Telegrams. 

We have every right to be disappointed, upset, frustrated, mad, and so on and so forth.


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## Escargon (Nov 28, 2012)

Inpactedblaze said:


> Do people even appreciate kishi work anymore? Some of you guys are complaining to damn much.



No i think Kishi brought this up on himself with the shity flashback of Obito. 

I mean seriously i have never seen something that shit and ive seen alot, including Gigli.

The flashback is the worst crap ive ever seen. This flashback is worse than my life. 

This flashback makes the whole part 2 a big joke.


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## MangaR (Nov 28, 2012)

You a bit late to create a complain thread about this really. You need to go back in time of Pain arc and start such threads, maybe Kishi will listen to you.

UPDATE

But it seems even if you made a failsafe it was only as far as the fail part. Get over it or start to create fanfic.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

^ Thanks for comparing me to Itachi, bro. 



arednad said:


> The lack of deaths hardly relates to this chapter. Why not bring it up when Edo Tensei ended or the kages survived? We already knew KNEW the alliance was converging at this battle. We KNEW they had all survived. Did you really think any of the heroes would die before the Alliance arrived?



Did you already forget the 12 threads last week about KB dying?

This week comes and guess what? KB didn't die! 

And now with the Alliance here, KB will never die! 

So yes. Yes this does relate to this chapter.


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## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> I like how in threads like this, the first two pages are usually full of people agreeing. After that, the Kishi apologists come flooding in.
> 
> People should notice the pattern. All of us diehard followers are the ones waiting up all night and/or checking our computers every two minutes for the chapter, so we're always the first ones in the Telegrams.
> 
> We have every right to be disappointed, upset, frustrated, mad, and so on and so forth.



Being more vocal doesn't mean anything as I have been here checking my computer as well...nor do I give a shit about kishi or what anyone thinks of him...

But this post is a perfect example of why I am replying cause the idea that you are the true fans and anyone who disagrees is just a kishi apologist is ludicrous at best.  When did the people that feel disenfranchised become so entitled that they think they speak for every hardcore fan of the series??


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## Hydro Spiral (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> And was anyone else expecting all the kages to appear too, magically healed?



Well I'm expecting it now, and I think everyone should


----------



## Mephissto (Nov 28, 2012)

Also Obito always seemed like he could track anybody anywhere like when he appeared in front of Sasuke in the middle of nowhere. And now neither him nor Madara is able to sense a fucking army coming their way


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Mephissto said:


> Also Obito always seemed like he could track anybody anywhere like when he appeared in front of Sasuke in the middle of nowhere. And now neither him nor Madara is able to sense a fucking army coming their way



Yea that was pretty good, too.


----------



## Reddan (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Did you already forget the 12 threads last week about KB dying?
> 
> This week comes and guess what? Kb didn't die!
> 
> So yes. Yes this does relate to this chapter.



I probably skipped them, because I don't think it would have been good writing to kill Bee at that moment. I honestly never thought Bee was in any real danger of death last chapter. Why kill Bee before his students have arrived? Why kill Bee in such a frivolous manner? Do you really think it would have been good writing to kill Bee without the presence of any Kumo ninjas?

EDIT

Killing Bee and Gai is something that is maybe difficult for Kishimoto.

Killing Onoki, Tsunade, Mifune, Raikage etc is not. He has killed off far more popular, more important and more developed characters (exception Tsunade). If they are alive it's because he thinks it's best for the story not any cowardice on his part.


----------



## Fido (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?
> 
> ...



You lack hatred.


----------



## UchihaItachimk (Nov 28, 2012)

Next chapter juubi goes rampage for some time yet kills no one , then kurama and hachibi recuparate and kages arive boring .


----------



## Vash (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?
> 
> ...



Pathetic 



PikaCheeka said:


> I like how in threads like this, the first two pages are usually full of people agreeing. After that, the Kishi apologists come flooding in.
> 
> People should notice the pattern. All of us diehard followers are the ones waiting up all night and/or checking our computers every two minutes for the chapter, so we're always the first ones in the Telegrams.
> 
> We have every right to be disappointed, upset, frustrated, mad, and so on and so forth.



Actually, this is more pathetic


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

UchihaItachimk said:


> Next chapter juubi goes rampage for some time yet kills no one , then kurama and hachibi recuparate and kages arive boring .



Probably, yea.


----------



## Bender (Nov 28, 2012)

@Pikacheeka

Not necessarily a "coward" just a total fucking sad-ass writer.


----------



## Arthas (Nov 28, 2012)

This is honestly why I prefer Sasuke as a character. At least with him there is some actual tension and even his team are more likely to die or get severely injured then any of the people who have shown up to defend Naruto right now...

Edit: Why do I have to wait before Repping PikaCheeka again? She types good stuff out faster then I can rep her...


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Arthas said:


> This is honestly why I prefer Sasuke as a character. At least with him there is some actual tension and even his team are more likely to die or get severely injured then any of the people who have shown up to defend Naruto right now...



Agreed. Even when we all sort of knew in the back of our minds that Karin would survive, a lot of us were still doubting ourselves and wtf-ing and/or laughing about how horrible it was that he just offed her.

If a team-mate ever gets harmed when Naruto is around, there's no reaction whatsoever.


----------



## Sphyer (Nov 28, 2012)

It's Nardo

What did you expect


----------



## Fiona (Nov 28, 2012)

I gave up on caring about Naruto the moment Tobi became Tobito. 

I now sit back and laugh at how horrible it has become. 

Its much easier on the blood pressure


----------



## Sniffers (Nov 28, 2012)

There never was any suspense in this war.


Also funny how everyone arrives at the same time. This goes to show how orchestrated the war is to fit the plot. This is probably also why there is no suspense.


----------



## TasteTheDifference (Nov 28, 2012)

This is a manga for 10 year olds, why do you expect it to lay out the iniquities of war, it'll never do that.  It's pretty common in for the good guys to some how escape death or injury at the last moment in action stories purportedly for adults, let alone small children.  Kishimoto would never even seem to want to kill of a major character in a huge melee like this anyway, his previous snuffing off of characters like Bee involved a heroic sacrifice and intimate attention to the characters feelings prior to death, eg the deaths of the Sarutobis, they didn't just happen to die in the narutoverse equivalent of a mortar attack, they died attempting to save their comrades and were given a big send off.

Killing off a character would completely contradict the tone he's attempting to create anyway, the arrival of the rest of the army and Naruto's decleration are supposed to uplift the reader, it wouldn't be possible to do that and create the somber tone and mandatory flashbacks a death requires in such a limited space


----------



## Max Thunder (Nov 28, 2012)

This arc has been nothing more than mediocre, it fails to create any suspense or emotional stress on the reader, not even a character close to death cliffhanger... you always know what's going to happen, that good will prevail, it's highly predictable (how cliche was this alliance arrival?) and it fails to portray war for what it is in reality.

I mean come on, Kishi kills Hiruzen in a little mini-war but can't come to kill a single named character in a full out one...



TasteTheDifference said:


> This is a manga for 10 year olds, why do you expect it to lay out the iniquities of war, it'll never do that.  It's pretty common in for the good guys to some how escape death or injury at the last moment in action stories purportedly for adults, let alone small children.  Kishimoto would never even seem to want to kill of a major character in a huge melee like this anyway, his previous snuffing off of characters like Bee involved a heroic sacrifice and intimate attention to the characters feelings prior to death, eg the deaths of the Sarutobis, they didn't just happen to die in the narutoverse equivalent of a mortar attack, they died attempting to save their comrades and were given a big send off.
> 
> Killing off a character would completely contradict the tone he's attempting to create anyway, the arrival of the rest of the army and Naruto's decleration are supposed to uplift the reader, it wouldn't be possible to do that and create the somber tone and mandatory flashbacks a death requires in such a limited space


 
If this manga is for 10 year olds then that means every year there's been fans coming out of that age group, so the manga fails to grow in terms of maturity with it's fans.

I'm sorry but I can't come to believe that.

I actually think it's a case of Kishi being stubborn in keeping a 'you always prevail if you never give up and if you're in the good side of the morality spectrum' theme which makes it very cheesy.


----------



## Ghost_of_Gashir (Nov 28, 2012)

This is the best written war ever. I mean, Ace's death just...

...oh wait, sorry.


----------



## Milliardo (Nov 28, 2012)

^ uplift the reader from what? the good guys are doing great, there is no tension in this war. its more like being consistent from the start of it.. kishi has failed to create any suspense.


----------



## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

Max Thunder said:


> This arc has been nothing more than mediocre, it fails to create any suspense or emotional stress on the reader, not even a character close to death cliffhanger... you always know what's going to happen, that good will prevail, it's highly predictable (how cliche was this alliance arrival?) and it fails to portray war for what it is in reality.
> 
> I mean come on, Kishi kills Hiruzen in a little mini-war but can't come to kill a single named character in a full out one...
> 
> ...




Stories especially ones with an established demographic generally don't mature as their original audience does...fact is they want to continue to draw in new people from the core demographic which is a bigger audience than what you'd get by catering to your original readers...especially when you consider that most of them will keep following anyway being invested already...


----------



## Escargon (Nov 28, 2012)

Lt Iceman said:


> exercise patience Pikacheeka,the fact that the've arrived means that
> 
> next chapter we're going to see Madara with his arms uncrossed,and that is enough to make a good chapter



Yeah even if Madara gets serious he will be disappointing like Obitos shity flashback.

Damn thats a nice moon she got on your sig. I want to lick it like a slave.


----------



## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

Grendel said:


> Stories especially ones with an established demographic generally don't mature as their original audience does...fact is they want to continue to draw in new people from the core demographic which is a bigger audience than what you'd get by catering to your original readers...especially when you consider that most of them will keep following anyway being invested already...



Funny things is the series arent even growing, they are going backwards becoming more and more simplistic and happy/hippy.


----------



## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

Rios said:


> Funny things is the series arent even growing, they are going backwards becoming more and more simplistic and happy/hippy.



Matter of opinion as I think it's stayed pretty childish throughout but I enjoy the story..


----------



## Ernie (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?
> 
> ...



Fak you, idiot. Today's chapter was freaking epic.


----------



## Ernie (Nov 28, 2012)

Very most are very happy with this chapter, some haters here are annoying.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Max Thunder said:


> This arc has been nothing more than mediocre, it fails to create any suspense or emotional stress on the reader, not even a character close to death cliffhanger... you always know what's going to happen, that good will prevail, it's highly predictable (how cliche was this alliance arrival?) and it fails to portray war for what it is in reality.



Agreed on all accounts.



> I mean come on, Kishi kills Hiruzen in a little mini-war but can't come to kill a single named character in a full out one...



I think Kishi just decided that once Jiraiya and Itachi died, he wasn't going to let anything bad happen ever again.




NarutoShippudenBelgium said:


> *Fak* you, idiot. Today's chapter was freaking epic.



Someone please call Obito to translate. I don't know what this word means.

And don't double-post.


----------



## Gabe (Nov 28, 2012)

its okay i am glad bee did not die


----------



## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

Grendel said:


> Matter of opinion as I think it's stayed pretty childish throughout but I enjoy the story..



Lets see:

-everything in this world boils down to the same cycle of hatred between two clans(and Uzumakis thrown in to make Naruto even more of a child of a prophecy), everyone beside people from these three clans is irrelevant
-Naruto being destined to win in-universe which leads to everyone accepting him as their god and savior before he even managed to slap the big bads
-Different shinobi villages with different shinobi mentalities get united because of the world-wide threat of........two people
-every major game changing ability stems out of the two plot devices - sharingan and senju blood, no expections

The list can only go on. Its like the manga is being dumbed down on purpose because its easier to write this way.


----------



## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

Rios said:


> Lets see:
> 
> -everything in this world boils down to the same cycle of hatred between two clans(and Uzumakis thrown in to make Naruto even more of a child of a prophecy), everyone beside people from these three clans is irrelevant
> -Naruto being destined to win in-universe which leads to everyone accepting him as their god and savior before he even managed to slap the big bads
> ...



What does listing the reasons you think its being dumbed down prove?  I agree with you that it's childish I just contend that that's always been the case...


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 28, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> *See I would literally be sucking Kishi's dick *if come next chapter the Juubi annihilates the entire alliance but there's no way that'll ever happen.
> 
> So dumb.





You're willing to fly to japan for that?


----------



## Jin-E (Nov 28, 2012)

We really don't know if Kishi is a "coward" when it comes to this. Could very well be that his editors make him do it to keep Naruto from beeing too dark and mature.


----------



## tanman (Nov 28, 2012)

I don't care for characters actually dying. One or two at a time, but not massive slaughters.
What I do want is characters being put in jeopardy. That's what a lot of other popular mangas have over Naruto. There is no sense of imminent death lurking, no real danger.


----------



## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

Grendel said:


> What does listing the reasons you think its being dumbed down prove?  I agree with you that it's childish I just contend that that's always been the case...



Pay attention for just a moment. What I stated were facts. The manga being dumbed down is a fact. 

My initial statement was that its becoming more and more simplistic, thats all. Stop asking the same over and over again.


----------



## Sorin (Nov 28, 2012)

What has kishimoto done is pretty cheesy and stupid, but i've come to expect these kind of things so i'm not dissapointed at all.

Why do some of you keep faith that something meaningful is gonna happen is beyond me. You're just gonna end butthurt like the OP and some others around here.


----------



## BlazingCobaltX (Nov 28, 2012)

Klue said:


> At least we no longer have to hear the "where are the rookies," complaint.


Now people will complain about "Why are the rookies here?".


----------



## Rokudaime (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?
> 
> ...



I hope that you will say the same thing to other pirate manga too. That would be way too hypocrisy you didn't though.


----------



## Jin-E (Nov 28, 2012)

Max Thunder said:


> The Uchiha squad only has 2 ninjas left + one monster lol what a joke...
> 
> So basically the *Alliance's kill count* is as follows,
> 
> ...



Except that Naruto and Itachi(ironically 2 people here as well) took care of 90% of them, aside from the Zetsus.

Without those 2, the war would have been lost long ago.


----------



## Ukoku (Nov 28, 2012)

Some people just take things a little too seriously. Just try to enjoy it for what it is. And if you can't do that , then stop reading.

It's a comic aimed towards young kids. It isn't worth getting so bent out of shape over.


----------



## Summers (Nov 28, 2012)

People thought Bee would die? People did not know the Alliance has been headed there for a while now? Last I checked folks were mad that they have not arrived yet, and this time they saved the day instead of Naruto, like people wanted?


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Rokudaime said:


> I hope that you will say the same thing to other pirate manga too. That would be way too hypocrisy you didn't though.



This is such a stupid argument but it always appears.

I buy the manga, in English and sometimes Japanese as well.

So what is your point again?


----------



## Summers (Nov 28, 2012)

Jin-E said:


> We really don't know if Kishi is a "coward" when it comes to this. Could very well be that his editors make him do it to keep Naruto from beeing too dark and mature.



Naruto is pretty dark, remember Oro experimenting on and killing 60 babies for LOL mokuton.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Summers said:


> People thought Bee would die? People did not know the Alliance has been headed there for a while now? Last I checked folks were mad that they have not arrived yet, and this time they saved the day instead of Naruto, like people wanted?



Most people complaining about the rookies were obviously joking, and many have flat-out said that they don't want or need them.

I can only think of five or so members who genuinely cared about them and wanted to see them.

Am I the only one who pays attention to posting patterns here?


----------



## Tony Lou (Nov 28, 2012)

Blazing CobaltX said:


> Now people will complain about "Why are the rookies here?".



Nah, if it were the just the rookies it would be fine. A fodder army is a tad bit too much.


----------



## Rokudaime (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> This is such a stupid argument but it always appears.
> 
> I buy the manga, in English and sometimes Japanese as well.
> 
> So what is your point again?



I am not talking about piracy, I am talking One Piece. Are you really that clueless? Is your irrational rage clouded your ability to think?


----------



## Grendel (Nov 28, 2012)

Rios said:


> Pay attention for just a moment. What I stated were facts. The manga being dumbed down is a fact.
> 
> My initial statement was that its becoming more and more simplistic, thats all. Stop asking the same over and over again.



In your opinion which appears to be fact now...you listed things happening in the manga true but that doesn't prove it's anymore dumbed down than it ever was....


----------



## Wraith_Madara (Nov 28, 2012)

Obito was right, then. Or wrong, depending on which side you're on. "There is no hope." At least if you're a villain or a fodder.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Rokudaime said:


> I am not talking about piracy, I am talking One Piece. Are you really that clueless? Is your irrational rage clouded your ability to think?



Considering the fact that "Don't bitch about manga you're not buying" is a ridiculously common complaint against people who say anything negative about the manga, your vague statement about "pirate manga" could easily have been taken as such. Especially if you saw my post to Rios in another thread.


----------



## oprisco (Nov 28, 2012)

Ukoku said:


> Some people just take things a little too seriously. Just try to enjoy it for what it is. And if you can't do that , then stop reading.
> 
> It's a comic aimed towards young kids. It isn't worth getting so bent out of shape over.



Exactly this.

What a shitty thread.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Nov 28, 2012)

Seriously Kishi?!  

If a regular Bijuu (like 8T) was a fly in comparison to 10T, and a regular human is a fly in comparison to the Bijuu, why bring the Alliance here?  10T can probably move 50 yards and crush 30K people.  

This will only lead to more dumb shit, like Naruto using the 9T Chakra to heal the entire Alliance or something.  I'm not a huge Sasuke supporter, but can move away from this nonsense please.


----------



## Naruto (Nov 28, 2012)

Because Bleach and One Piece are so much better, right? Hell, even the predecessors of the current holy shonen trinity fail miserably at this. Look at Dragon Ball.

Why are you judging the manga like it's fucking Shakespeare instead of looking at the competition instead?

Not closing the thread because in my mind people are allowed to bitch and whine to their heart's content, but jesus do I think this is ridiculous.


----------



## Seraphiel (Nov 28, 2012)

Naruto said:


> Because Bleach and One Piece are so much better, right?



Yes One Piece is incomparably better.



As for the thread

Next time on Naruto Tail, Naruto and the alliance show their ultimate power, nakama panchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## bearzerger (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh come on those who expected B to die this chapter really were clueless. No one important in Naruto dies without a proper flashback. As for those 40k reinforcements I think their role will be mostly to fill in as audience to Naruto's battle.


----------



## WorstUsernameEver (Nov 28, 2012)

Tsunade got cut in half, countless fodder ninja's died. What more do you want? If you were expecting major characters to be dieing left and right you were fooling yourself


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

^ Tsunade, if she actually dies, will probably be the only causality that is remotely relevant in this war. And at this rate I'm not even really seeing her dying anymore. She may have to walk with a cane or something, though.



bearzerger said:


> Oh come on those who expected B to die this chapter really were clueless. No one important in Naruto dies without a proper flashback. As for those 40k reinforcements I think their role will be mostly to fill in as audience to Naruto's battle.



KB actually had his flashback a while ago.


----------



## 8Apedemak8 (Nov 28, 2012)

Naruto said:


> Because Bleach and One Piece are so much better, right? Hell, even the predecessors of the current holy shonen trinity fail miserably at this. Look at Dragon Ball.
> 
> Why are you judging the manga like it's fucking Shakespeare instead of looking at the competition instead?
> 
> Not closing the thread because in my mind people are allowed to bitch and whine to their heart's content, but jesus do I think this is ridiculous.



Why are you even talking about Bleach and OP  it doesn't have anything to do with the thread...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 28, 2012)

War arc is so much wasted potential. It is horribly executed, except a very few bits. And this is supposed to be the most climatic arc of this manga. 

I mean, I wish Kishimoto had someone else do it, because he majorly fucked up. 

This is looney toons shit brah. 0 suspense. How can you enjoy a battle between good & evil when you are certain that nothing bad will happen to the good guys ?


----------



## αce (Nov 28, 2012)

Naruto said:


> Because Bleach and One Piece are so much better, right? Hell, even the predecessors of the current holy shonen trinity fail miserably at this. Look at Dragon Ball.
> 
> Why are you judging the manga like it's fucking Shakespeare instead of looking at the competition instead?
> 
> Not closing the thread because in my mind people are allowed to bitch and whine to their heart's content, but jesus do I think this is ridiculous.




One piece is much better than Naruto. And being better than Bleach isn't something to be proud of.

This is a joke right? Judge it by it's competition?
Oh lord even the apologists are now close to conceding. Kishimoto is a terrible writer.


----------



## gershwin (Nov 28, 2012)

I knew no one is going to die from the beginning. Nor Onoki, nor Tsunade, nor Bee. This is how this manga rolls lately. Not even Kabuto (!!!)
But its true that level of suspense and tension is incredibly low, almost non-existant. Obito as antagonist fails more and more, current Juubi is nothing but a tool. I`m glad that there is no real focus on Madara - he is not the main villain in this battle, and after Obito is defeated, I believe he will cast mugen tsukuyomi after all.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 28, 2012)

Naruto said:


> Because Bleach and One Piece are so much better, right? Hell, even the predecessors of the current holy shonen trinity fail miserably at this. Look at Dragon Ball.
> 
> Why are you judging the manga like it's fucking Shakespeare instead of looking at the competition instead?
> 
> Not closing the thread because in my mind people are allowed to bitch and whine to their heart's content, but jesus do I think this is ridiculous.



Just abuse your Mod powers and ban the posters who whine too much...


----------



## Nagato Sennin (Nov 28, 2012)

People thought Bee was going to die


----------



## bearzerger (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> KB actually had his flashback a while ago.



That doesn't count. That flashback was two years ago. Don't get me wrong, B is certainly on the short list especially since he made that fateful promise to Iruka, but for him to die at this point it has to be set up properly again.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> War arc is so much wasted potential. It is horribly executed, except a very few bits. And this is supposed to be the most climatic arc of this manga.
> 
> I mean, I wish Kishimoto had someone else do it, because he majorly fucked up.
> 
> This is looney toons shit brah. 0 suspense. How can you enjoy a battle between good & evil when you are certain that nothing bad will happen to the good guys ?



Hmm I actually think the war was a solid compromise considering its scale. Kishi couldn't afford to showcase everyone's actions in detail because that way we would never have gotten anywhere. So instead he chose to focus mostly on Naruto and give us glimpses of what everyone did and selected a few battle to show in a more detailed however still concise manner.

Now, I agree a couple of important deaths at the right moment would have done a lot to give this war a stronger impression. For example Oonoki should have died for sure instead of him- along with all the other kages- probably getting saved by Tsunade. So I won't defend Kishi's decision not to kill anyone until now. Even if he simply chose to save the deaths for this battle and kills Gai, B and Oonoki, whenever the kages arrive, that won't do much in changing the tone of the war at this point.


----------



## Rokudaime (Nov 28, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> One piece is much better than Naruto. And being better than Bleach isn't something to be proud of.
> 
> This is a joke right? Judge it by it's competition?
> Oh lord even the apologists are now close to conceding. Kishimoto is a terrible writer.



I am pretty sure that he was talking about "character get killed" department.


----------



## The Fool (Nov 28, 2012)

This is manga for children primarily, i.e. middle school to probably 11th grade in US.  Actually, Kishi does a brilliant job of balancing the tragic with a light-hearted, slapstick story. He's perfectly on point with his delivery.


----------



## Namikaze_Minato (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?
> 
> ...





stfu. two sharingan noobs going to get raped yet again. uchihas are the bitches in this manga who keeps getting slapped around throughout naruto timeline.

mad?


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> War arc is so much wasted potential. It is horribly executed, except a very few bits. *And this is supposed to be the most climatic arc of this manga. *
> 
> I mean, I wish Kishimoto had someone else do it, because he majorly fucked up.
> 
> This is looney toons shit brah. 0 suspense. *How can you enjoy a battle between good & evil when you are certain that nothing bad will happen to the good guys ?*



Exactly.




bearzerger said:


> That doesn't count. That flashback was two years ago. Don't get me wrong, B is certainly on the short list especially since he made that fateful promise to Iruka, but for him to die at this point it has to be set up properly again.



I think KB can taken off the short list now. It's no longer existent.


----------



## KnightGhost (Nov 28, 2012)

One piece is better? I don't no sometimes it gets annoying and childish but the overall story line is better yes. Depends on the arc. The war Arc in one piece was better.bleach right now is getting better then naruto the 1000 year war arc is really good so far


----------



## Black Sheep (Nov 28, 2012)

Absolutely sickening how bad this manga is getting Kishi can't writefor shit!


----------



## Nuuskis (Nov 28, 2012)

And to add oil in the fire, you could see a glimpse of Obito's redemption by how he saw Naruto as like his old-self. 

So yeah, no important character will die in this war expect maybe Tsunade, but even she isn't that important anymore. And Kishimoto will totally rape Tobi by redeeming him in the most retarded way possible. (Although his reason for going to the bad side is stubid already.)

I am honestly still reading this only because of habit and because it doesn't take too long to read about 18 pages once a week. I couldn't give rat's ass about what is going to happen anymore.

I can only wonder if Kishimoto is letting his kids to write this crap.


----------



## King of Troll (Nov 28, 2012)

I bet Madara will say "everyone is here - good we don't need to gather them, let's start infinite tsukuyomi now"


----------



## Cjones (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> And was anyone else expecting all the kages to appear too, magically healed?
> 
> Fuck this manga.



Give that a couple of more chapters, possible after the alliance looses faith or something.

I'm talking all 5 of them, no 4.


----------



## bearzerger (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> I think KB can taken off the short list now. It's no longer existent.



Him, Oonoki, Gai and perhaps Tsunade are the only ones among the good guys whose death has any foreshadowing at this point. So considering there are only three or four I would still consider him part of the short list.

Kishi can kill off B with little prepwork. All it would need is a chapter or two.


----------



## shintebukuro (Nov 28, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> One piece is much better than Naruto. And being better than Bleach isn't something to be proud of.
> 
> This is a joke right? Judge it by it's competition?
> Oh lord even the apologists are now close to conceding. Kishimoto is a terrible writer.



No, you just failed to comprehend the point.


Judge this series as it relates to others in its genre. Right now, your basis for comparison is nothing other than your own imagination. 

But, this isn't the real issue here. You guys are smart enough to understand that you need to judge a shounen as a shounen. This is still Tobito backlash -- ever since Tobito happened, _everything_ sucks to you. 

This is not a good track you and others are trying to derail this forum onto. It's pretty selfish. Sooner or later, a mod is going to start censoring your threads so we can have constructive discussion again and get off of this doom and gloom roller coaster you drama queens are imposing on everyone.


----------



## gabzilla (Nov 28, 2012)

This has been clear for a while.

> Nagato revives Konoha and is converted with a book
> The good guys have to fight two Big Bads and an army of zombies and clones, which means they don't have to experience the horrors of having other human beings as ther enemies and all that it implies


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## crystalblade13 (Nov 28, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Propably Kishi whos lurking around this forum. Everytime i made Obito thread discussing about things that made no sense someone would instantly arrive and 1 star rate it



It's because people on this forum bitching about how the manga is boring and repetitive cant grasp that their posts every week are a thosand times more boring and repetitive than they percieve the manga to be.


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## King of Troll (Nov 28, 2012)

There should be new opening song in anime for this chapter: Heroes (not Hero's) come back


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## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

crystalblade13 said:


> It's because people on this forum bitching about how the manga is boring and repetitive cant grasp that their posts every week are a thosand times more boring and repetitive than they percieve the manga to be.



False. Negativity is what sparks a fruitful discussion. If every single poster here was happy with the content you'll have the most boring place on the internets.


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## Glutamminajr (Nov 28, 2012)

No.Kishimoto is only a shonen mangaka.Nothing more nothing less.


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## Ernie (Nov 28, 2012)

Hahahaha at some ragers here. 

I agree on the fact some good guys need to die, but that is no reason to say this war is a failure, I still enjoy this manga A LOT.


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## ovanz (Nov 28, 2012)

Naruto believed in friendship and the heart of the cards...

I'm surprised the aliance didn't come in unicorns while they were riding a rainbow that was summoned by the carebears.


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## tupadre97 (Nov 28, 2012)

I just hope that the Juubi slaughters everybody next chapter.


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## 8Apedemak8 (Nov 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> No, you just failed to comprehend the point.
> 
> 
> Judge this series as it relates to others in its genre. Right now, your basis for comparison is nothing other than your own imagination.
> ...



I'm an Obito fan you know ?
But anyways It's not much to ask to have a little suspense in the story,nobody is asking for a blood bath.It's not like Kishi was afraid to show violence either..

It's important to see heroes fail at some point,even if we know they're going to win in the end..


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## frankydan (Nov 28, 2012)

It's a manga for kids. Not certain why you were expecting numerous good guys to die. DragonBall/Z/GT hardly killed good guys and when it did, it went to great lengths to show that they are only "kinda"dead. Bleach doesn't kill any important cast either....why you expect it from this particular manga....made for kids?


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## Linkdarkside (Nov 28, 2012)

R.I.P Monga


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 28, 2012)

"LOL SAVED !"

Summarizes this arc.


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## Kusa (Nov 28, 2012)

If Juubi really gets beaten from Narutos jutsu so fast,then damn that would just so lame.


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## Danzio (Nov 28, 2012)

Too…..much….negativity...simply...too.....much.


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## Naruto Fighto (Nov 28, 2012)

Butt = hurt.

Madara is going to get defeated, deal with it.


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## oricon (Nov 28, 2012)

Cant we all agree this is a young boys manga.


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## ch1p (Nov 28, 2012)

I expected the Alliance to show up in a moment of despair. I did not expect that they'd appear the exact same chapter the despair started. Two chapter in a row where the cliffhanger at the end is positive.

So yeah, after last chapter, I expected Naruto & co to be stomped badly and the chapter ending in a really bad situation (like Jyubi reaching for Naruto / Bee). Then the next chapter, tururu here comes the Alliance. I did not expect them to show up in this chapter.


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## NO (Nov 28, 2012)

Good guys don't have to die in order for the story to be good...

And Kishimoto is a coward for writing _his_ story the way _he_ wanted to write it?

Come on, Pika.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 28, 2012)

Why bitch at this point.


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## auem (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?
> 
> ...


only half !..that's promising....because i thought there are more naive people here than that.....

anyway alliance arriving at anytime was quite expected.....
i also assure you that you will see some death this time around....


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## Raidoton (Nov 28, 2012)

This bitching about the same stupid stuff...


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Nov 28, 2012)

Rainbird said:


> This is news, how? We know Kishimoto likes his sappy, feel-good happy endings. We knew this in Part I when Neji and Chouji miraculously survived against the Sound 4. Anyone who didn't catch on then should have gotten a clue when Nagato revived half of Konoha because Naruto gave him a book review.
> 
> Go read Berserk.



The shock value never ceases though, and for good reason...


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## Kusa (Nov 28, 2012)

Naruto Fighto said:


> Butt = hurt.
> 
> Madara is going to get defeated, deal with it.



Thats not the point....


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## Sareth (Nov 28, 2012)

Pika speaks the truth. If you can't handle it, that's your problem.


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## LostSelf (Nov 28, 2012)

This is Naruto. A kid's manga. Not Gantz.


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## Chuck (Nov 28, 2012)

Surprise surprise.

Though I do still have my hopes of Juubi wiping out most of the remaining Shinobi Alliance.


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## kyubix2 (Nov 28, 2012)

a FACT , in naruto died more good guys than in any american action movie in all history. 

kushina,dan,sarutobi,minato,asuma,jiraya,rin,yahiko.

Blood, romance,sex,mature language,a lot of drama,war,and people dying or already dead. 

That is for kids? not in the USA at least.

Naruto anime version is censored on TV.


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## Escargon (Nov 28, 2012)

Bah so many people disagreeing. In war your friends dies..


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## Naruto Fighto (Nov 28, 2012)

Villain said:


> Thats not the point....



Yeah, that is the point. No one is going to die because the whole alliance > Madara and Obito with juubi. Ino just trolled them with her basic jutsu. Now imagine when they all pull out their strongest techniques, they also have Shikamaru and Kakashi there to make strategies.
No one is dying because the alliance is going to stomp Madara.


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## Yang Wenli (Nov 28, 2012)

If Kishi has any brain left, the next few chapters will be a massacre of near-genocidal proportions.


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## Naruto Fighto (Nov 28, 2012)

Yang Wenli said:


> If Kishi has any brain left, the next few chapters will be a massacre of near-genocidal proportions.



As if Naruto and Kakashi would allow it, if Madara and Obito want to focus on fodders they will leave the strongest ones to attack them from behind.


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## Rios (Nov 28, 2012)

Naruto Fighto said:


> Yeah, that is the point. No one is going to die because the whole alliance > Madara and Obito with juubi. Ino just trolled them with her basic jutsu. Now imagine when they all pull out their strongest techniques, they also have Shikamaru and Kakashi there to make strategies.
> No one is dying because the alliance is going to stomp Madara.



Which will only make this manga more pathetic than it already is. Strongest being so far can be defeated by a group of random ninjas without casualties = the epitome of bad writing.


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## shintebukuro (Nov 28, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Bah so many people disagreeing. In war your friends dies..



You have the wrong idea of what this war is about. From the very first chapter, it should have been clear to you that the war was not going to be about deaths.

So, you essentially are refusing to change your beliefs. You've been holding onto the same idea now for 100 chapters, despite being proven wrong time and time again. 

Move on.



			
				Grimmjowsensei said:
			
		

> This is looney toons shit brah. 0 suspense. How can you enjoy a battle between good & evil when you are certain that nothing bad will happen to the good guys ?



Is it really that much different from any other point in the series?

Look, this is what I mean by the doom-and-gloom bandwagon you're on that is ultimately being fueled by Tobito-backlash. You now criticize the war for something that's existed since chapter 1.


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## Nuuskis (Nov 28, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> Good guys don't have to die in order for the story to be good...



But good guys needs to die so the war would look realistic and so to make the story that involves war good.


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## T-Bag (Nov 28, 2012)

nobody dies. not even 1 of the kages

its a war where all the bad guys die but not 1 major good guy


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Nov 28, 2012)

Disagree in this instance.

Can't call Kishi a coward on this.

This cavalry call was necessary. They had NO WAY of dealing with that attack. First of all, ALL of the rookies have been neglected and underutilized. They need their moment in the spotlight. Second, anyone who was on that field, The Masters and the Jinchuriki are critical to actually finishing this fight. They are NOT expendable. Third you're jumping the gun. Now that the reinforcements are here now there are people who are actually expendable.

But that any of the Konoha 11 are actually going to die permanently is a foolish dream. That rarely happens in this genre. I don't know why anyone would expect such an outcome.

Thematically this is in line with the story. Teamwork is a strength multiplier.


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## shintebukuro (Nov 28, 2012)

Nachrael said:


> But good guys needs to die so the war can look realistic and so to make the story that involves war good.



Over 50,000 shinobi have died.

You want important characters to die? That requires backstory, flashbacks, a send-off, some kind of symbolic meaning to it all, etc etc...

Please understand, _this arc is essentially a *classic Shounen tournament arc*. _ It's like the Tenkaichi Budoukai in Dragon Ball, or the Dark Tournament in YYH, and so on. It's one fight after the next after the next, and what makes this a "war" is the fact that we are treated to Zetsu clones vs. Fodder shinobi once in a while.

It's a "war" in the sense that it's constant fighting around the world, and being done in order to save humanity. It's not a "Saving Private Ryan" kind of "war," where we see all sorts of death and have to reflect personally on the horrors of war.

You need to stop trying to interpret it in that fashion. That's not what it is. You had the wrong idea, so adapt to this information I gave you.



			
				T-bag said:
			
		

> its a war where all the bad guys die but not 1 major good guy



Not even the bad guys have really "died." They were all dead in the first place (ET), and the Zetsu are just clones.


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## Gaiash (Nov 28, 2012)

Hey at least he's better than Stephanie Meyer who decides her big battle won't even happen, not even fodder get a chance to die in Breaking Dawn. At least the Shinobi Alliance will fight.


----------



## chidikaagu (Nov 28, 2012)

8Apedemak8 said:


> I am so tired of this fight there's no way any named character is going to die...



I think Neji is already dead or he is going to die.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Is it really that much different from any other point in the series?



Actually it is.

Remember Lee's crushing defeat, which almost cost him his ninjahood and erased him from the manga for 100 chapters ? 

Remember the times when Kakashi, Naruto or Sasuke *almost died* ?

You might say "almost" but even that doesn't happen anymore.

I don't think its just me, but prior to Kirabi arc(especially in part 1 though)  bad shit happened to  both good and bad people.

Fights had some nasty consequences, like Sarutobi dying or Orochimaru losing his arms and ability to cast jutsu.
Rookies being brought to the verge of death.

There was more blood, tears and emotions. 





> Look, this is what I mean by the doom-and-gloom bandwagon you're on that is ultimately being fueled by Tobito-backlash. You now criticize the war for something that's existed since chapter 1.



Well, I completely disagree.

I am in no bandwagon, and even if there is one, then I am one of the few who started it. Since the introduction of Rinnegan/Rikodou sennin/Child of prophecy bullshit, I claimed that this manga started going down hill. And the thing is, there are more people who agree with me with every chapter.

Besides, in my opinion this 4th ninja war is one of the, if not the most, important evens this manga had witnessed on panel.

I mean its a fucking war. We want to see it. We want to see the terror the war brings. Where is it ? 

Come on man, you are a sensible guy, stop playing the devils advocate.


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## Algol (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah true story. 

As much as I'm glad the alliance is finally there, I would have preferred they showed up after one more chapter and after one of the Masters and/or Killerbee was dead. It would have made for good drama on their arrival to see one of their strongest allies fallen.

"Oh well..." maybe now that there's more people, the Juubi can kill someone there. 

At least 40,000 fodders died or whatever the number was, and maybe Tsunade. (Inb4 Sasuke gets rinengan and revives everyone who died in war lol)


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## Whirlpool (Nov 28, 2012)

Don't care that they don't die.

Just care that they're here and they're queer and it's cheesy as fuck.


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## Tian (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?
> 
> ...


Let me refer to to the demographic of "shounen" before facepalming.  
Fans don't dictate what happens in the story, get over it.


----------



## Revolution (Nov 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> You have the wrong idea of what this war is about. From the very first chapter, it should have been clear to you that the war was not going to be about deaths.
> 
> So, you essentially are refusing to change your beliefs. You've been holding onto the same idea now for 100 chapters, despite being proven wrong time and time again.
> 
> ...





Bottom right panel.  "They'l learn soon enough"


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## Lelouch71 (Nov 28, 2012)

Good

Lose all expectations for this manga and become just like me. Become cynical and indifferent to what Kishimoto does.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Nov 28, 2012)

This war is a joke and so is this manga (now). I'm only reading it because I wanna see the ending and because of Madara. Fuck everything else.

Kishi seriously needs to grow some balls. In a war you lose good guys, bad guys, and loved ones. This war hasn't fulfilled any of those requirements. Except for bad guys dying.

Totally agree with you, Pika.


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## Tekkenman11 (Nov 28, 2012)

No, not fuck this manga.

Fuck you, sir.

Go do us a favor and stop posting in the telegrams you troll. Go read something else for the sake of all our sanity.


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## Kellogem (Nov 28, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually it is.
> 
> Remember Lee's crushing defeat, which almost cost him his ninjahood and erased him from the manga for 100 chapters ?
> 
> ...



qft

the last time shit really hit the fan and it was all intense was like when Hidan killed Asuma, was laughing like a maniac, Shikamaru cried Asumas name and Izumo and Kotetsu were about getting raped by Kakuzu. Id like to have more scenes like that.

during the Pain invasion there was a couple of intense scenes where the good guys were sweating blood, but the whole revival thing made it a joke. now I cant take them seriously even if I thought the situation was pretty grim when I read them.

and this arc is a joke. I dont expect named good guys to die anymore, but at least give them a hard time and some serious injuries damn it, when it looks like there is no hope for victory, like Neji VS Kidoumaru or the rest of the sound 5 fights back then. 

nowadays good guys are all sweaty, dirty, tired looking, and thats their worst shape.. they hardly have flesh wounds, and even those disappear within chapters, I cant take it seriously. and all those bullshit inspirational speeches... I look worse and more broken after a hard day.

the fate of the 5 kages is the only promising line, but Im sure Tsunade is going to heal like all of them.

one had to know the good guys are going to win at the end of the story, but the authors job is to make us forget it for a couple of moments and feel like they had no hope even if we know thats not the case. Kishi failed to make me believe the result of this "war" is not set in stone in this arc.


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## DelRappy (Nov 28, 2012)

I miss the times when sad things actually happened in this manga.

This manga was much darker before the war started. Kishi used to write Naruto's evilest villans better than he wrote its heroes, and now we're down to a story where there are thousands of heroes and a single villain, who hasn't done anything interesting since he met Naruto.

Such a change in atmosphere will probably please the vast majority of Japanese audiences, and worldwide younger audiences. The authors have probably decided to forfeit a part of their earlier audience (mostly its older strata) in order to keep the majority of readers around, especially if the story isn't close to its end. Were's all butthurt but, as a poster above mentioned, the target demographic of shounen is a lot farther away from us than we think it is. It was the only possible sensible decision.

What's left of my hopes, as part of this manga's newly (well, for a while already) non-targeted audience, is placed on whatever Orochimaru and Sauce are doing. Madara doesn't really stand a chance anymore (if he could get mind-controlled for two seconds, by a small group of mid-level leaf ninja, imagine what the whole group can do to him) so perhaps Kishi's going to turn one of those two into FV material (likely Sasuke, most fans don't like Orochimaru) and start a new arc.

(still, I feel that the next few chapters will have at least a bit of the strategy-focused fighting that was prevalent in part 1 and has, according to a lot of complaints, disappeared in part 2, where ha>< powers are all that matters... the Juubi fight could finally get interesting)


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## Default (Nov 28, 2012)

Don't quite get why most of this ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) are 1staring and disagreeing. There should be main characters dying and sacrifying themself for a higher purpose, not plot shields made for 5 years kids that doesn't know shit about good writing and can't stand fictional ninjas dying. Fucking Kishimoto, wasting his last chances of redeeming the name of this manga.


----------



## Athruz (Nov 28, 2012)

Remember Samui and Atsui? 

Ok, on a serious note, how do you think ALL of the alliance will survive against THE STRONGEST 3 VILLAINS in the series? That case actually happening is void of possibility, and if it actually does which i doubt, Kishi just completely defies his manga's logic.


----------



## Kellogem (Nov 28, 2012)

Athruz said:


> Remember Samui and Atsui?
> 
> Ok, on a serious note, how do you think ALL of the alliance will survive against THE STRONGEST 3 VILLAINS in the series? That case actually happening is void of possibility, and if it actually does which i doubt, Kishi just completely defies his manga's logic.



not all of the alliance, only the named characters and a couple of fodder to make it look less absurd. but Im sure 100 000 faceless fodder will die at the end of the day.

and btw D Gray-man was shounen as well, still 10 times more dark then this. it was quiet popular before the hiatuses, so I doubt the readers cant stomach more serious stuff.


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## αce (Nov 28, 2012)

-Kishimoto
-Balls

Pick one.
Not a single good guy casualty. This wasn't a war. It was a big fight.


----------



## αce (Nov 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> No, you just failed to comprehend the point.
> 
> 
> Judge this series as it relates to others in its genre. Right now, your basis for comparison is nothing other than your own imagination.



So not as a literary piece of work? It'd be nice if Kishimoto was, you know, original - and didn't simply write a story exactly the way a shounen is expected to be written. You know what we call that? Unoriginal. 


> But, this isn't the real issue here. You guys are smart enough to understand that you need to judge a shounen as a shounen. This is still Tobito backlash -- ever since Tobito happened, _everything_ sucks to you.



Wrong. Before Tobito, almost all of it sucked ever since the Nagato arc. I've been saying this for how long? The Tobito revelation just put the nail in the coffin. 



> This is not a good track you and others are trying to derail this forum onto. It's pretty selfish. Sooner or later, a mod is going to start censoring your threads so we can have constructive discussion again and get off of this doom and gloom roller coaster you drama queens are imposing on everyone.



Constructive discussion in the KL hasn't existed since 09.


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## αce (Nov 28, 2012)

And _even_ if I were to compare it to it's own genre, it's still sub-par to other shounen like One Piece, Toriko and Dragonball. So the point makes no sense either way.


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## gershwin (Nov 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Kishi seriously needs to grow some balls. In a war you lose good guys, bad guys, and loved ones. This war hasn't fulfilled any of those requirements. Except for bad guys dying.



Its even worse. So far in this was the only bad guys dying were zetsus and zombies. Kishi couldn`t kill off even Kabuto


----------



## Kusa (Nov 28, 2012)

I already gave up hoping that an important character will die,but the good guys win to easily which is pissing me off.


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## αce (Nov 28, 2012)

> I am pretty sure that he was talking about "character get killed" department.



When a major war happened - which was the highlight of part 1 of One Piece, very important characters died. 2 chapters apart. I'm not asking to drop people left and right. I'm asking for Kishimoto to show some fucking balls and off a main character during_ the last final major conflict._ If you're gonna ignore your side characters you may as well make this war seem threatening. There was no sense of urgency until Madara came out and when Obito confronted Naruto.

Is this so much to ask?


----------



## Kellogem (Nov 28, 2012)

gershwin said:


> Its even worse. So far in this was the only bad guys dying were zetsus and zombies. Kishi couldn`t kill off even Kabuto



the problem starts with real wars dont really have good and bad guys. maybe guys with bad ideals, but there are "good" and "bad" guys on both sides.

this war was ridiculous from the beginning, when we found out one side consists of zombies crying for salvation and for the good guys to kill them and a lot of puppet like Zetsu clones.

Obito should have had an army made out of the ninjas from the smaller villages, dissatisfied clans, cults like Jashin...etc. but then kishimoto should have had to deal with moral issues, and it would be too much for him to handle.


----------



## Undead (Nov 28, 2012)

Should've realized that a long time ago Pika. Shouldn't expect much out of this guy (Kishi).


----------



## AoshiKun (Nov 28, 2012)

Have you noticed only now? 
I already lost any hope likely 30-40 chapters ago.

I just want to see the end if the story.


----------



## Naruto Fighto (Nov 28, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> And _even_ if I were to compare it to it's own genre, it's still sub-par to other shounen like One Piece, Toriko and Dragonball. So the point makes no sense either way.



By what criteria are you judging this? The amount of good guy casualties? In dragon ball so many good guys died for good, right? Riiiiiight....


----------



## Arthas (Nov 28, 2012)

Actually the one thing I really hate about Naruto is this:

Naruto pretends to or at least Kishi attempts to address serious & big issues  and builds things up but then just when it seems any big issue is about to be addressed he just wimps out and resorts to childish solutions or reversals.

War is bad, it causes suffering and loss and creates a cycle of hatred. So I will show a war that has no real suffering, loss portrayed and where a cycle of hatred is practically impossible...

Please note I did not necessarily want to see the above out a pure sense of blood/deathlust but because I wanted to see Naruto actually being challenged by the consequences of such a war and conquer that challenge. Instead we get this....

I'd honestly like Naruto (both the manga and character) more if the author had never pretended that he was going to tackle such issues in the first place.


----------



## Naruto Fighto (Nov 28, 2012)

Rios said:


> Which will only make this manga more pathetic than it already is. Strongest being so far can be defeated by a group of random ninjas without casualties = the epitome of bad writing.



It's a whole shinobi alliance, that is all the ninjas there are in that world plus the main character and a group of elite ninjas that are helping him. Not so unbelievable, it's not like Madara and Obito are facing a group of weaklings here. 
But I do think there might be some named casualties for the alliance at the end of the day, but even if there are none it is not unrealistic.
This war started as Kabuto and Tobi against the world, it is not a normal war.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Nov 28, 2012)

I get the complains about the lack of tension currently, really I do. However, for weeks you really thought, said and actually hoped the Rookies and company had been forgotten despite their arrival to the battlefield being foreshadowed 38 chapters ago. You even _mocked_ the idea of it happening regardless of the concrete evidence. You should have seen this coming sooner or later, this year or near the end some time ago and not be so angry about this. None of this was "ass-pull" if anyone is thinking that.

Also, this development just means they now are gonna prove wrong what Obito and Madara meant about their numbers just being barks and not bites by using the power and team-attacks of the whole Alliance to match as much as they can of the Juubi's till Kurama (and Gyuki?) gather chakra. After all Madara and Obito are still waiting for the moon to be fully set before beginning the ritual for the Mugen Tsukuyomi. If they, the Alliance, can't hope to defeat it, they can always stall it till daylight. 

And since when is this the final arc? Nowhere has it been stated to be as such, specially not with Sasuke going on his own search-arc thing. This isn't the final arc nor battle. It's the longest arc in Part II, about to reach 100th chapters if it still is going when we reach 615.


----------



## iJutsu (Nov 28, 2012)

The Madara wank has clouded your mind OP. No one dies in the war against the final villains in shounen. That's the way it has always been.


----------



## Naruto Fighto (Nov 28, 2012)

Arthas said:


> Actually the one thing I really hate about Naruto is this:
> 
> Naruto pretends to or at least Kishi attempts to address serious & big issues  and builds things up but then just when it seems any big issue is about to be addressed he just wimps out and resorts to childish solutions or reversals.
> 
> ...



The ones that experienced real horrors of ninja world are Kakashi, Obito, Zabuza, Oro, Minato and so on, basically the older generations. Kishimoto wants to keep Naruto (character) and his generation pure and they are the privileged ones.


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Nov 28, 2012)

The real coward is he who judges a story well before the author ever has a chance to finish laying it all out. You don't know what's going to happen, so to talk as if you somehow do, is ignorance.


----------



## Satori katsu (Nov 28, 2012)

I love how the people claiming that everyone is "bitching" for no reason have no better comeback than just that or that this manga is a shounen. Then the people who are just "bitching'' about stuff come out they give examples of things and back up their arguments the real people bitching have nothing left to say. Which goes to show that when you want to criticize something and somebody disagrees they're only comeback basically comes down to shut up stop bitching. This isn't what this is about.

They were giving examples  that this manga used to be held to a higher standard of drama with itself and that shounen manga in general have been more darker than Naruto. I suggest everybody go back to the very beginning and read part one. The manga had consequences and didn't kill off many characters but the fighting was very mature, violent, and dramatic which is what the story is about. Then come back to the more recent chapters and you should see a very big difference. It was much more focused and the writing was better, with the deaths creating a theme of people constantly in conflict and dying. 

The thing about this 'war' was it comprised of already dead characters and inhuman zetsu clones. It featured a few situations where characters were faced with the consequences of their fights but if there were a few missing faces out of that group besides the kage then it would give the characters and readers a bigger drive to defeat Obito and Madara. Watching characters you do not know you empathize with isn't an excuse because it just a cowardly thing to do. It's pandering to your fans trying to make everybody happy rather than write a meaningful plot. Other manga do that too and it's just bad writing so I'm not sure why people compare this to that. Main character deaths create focused drama that holds more weight with the story and these characters. 

The fact that we ask for some actual character development that results out of the hardships of fighting where there's a good possibility that the characters we know could die is not asking something ridiculous for this manga. It happened in the past and it happens in other shounen manga. 

This is definitely not bitching either because the things we criticize are fair. Sure this manga likes to bring people back from the dead and if Kishi wants to do that then so be it. I just don't think it helps the story. Harry Potter was a children's book that at least killed off a few main characters in it's story and war. So the children's story argument doesn't exist, it's just lazy. 

Please let people voice their opinions weather or not you disagree with them. If you don't agree then come up with a better argument for your opinion than the one you disagree with. The whole point of a forum is discussion and everyone has their right to argue their opinion. It may be ridiculous but don't just tell somebody to screw off because you don't agree, because that makes you worse than the trolls


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## Naruto Fighto (Nov 28, 2012)

Satori katsu said:


> I love how the people claiming that everyone is "bitching" for no reason have no better comeback than just that or that this manga is a shounen. Then the people who are just "bitching'' about stuff come out they give examples of things and back up their arguments the real people bitching have nothing left to say. Which goes to show that when you want to criticize something and somebody disagrees they're only comeback basically comes down to shut up stop bitching. If it is a "bitching" thread with no purpose that's one thing and this thread never was.



Wow, my head hurts from reading this. I read up until here and didn't read the rest of the post. Are you bitching about people that bitch about people bitching? bitchception


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## Euraj (Nov 28, 2012)

Arthas said:


> Actually the one thing I really hate about Naruto is this:
> 
> Naruto pretends to or at least Kishi attempts to address serious & big issues  and builds things up but then just when it seems any big issue is about to be addressed he just wimps out and resorts to childish solutions or reversals.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I can agree with this. I feel like Kishimoto made the dilemna more profound than the solution. Inevitably, Obito and Madara will arguably do more to fixing the problem than Naruto, unless the latter can put forth some more serious solutions than "I will become Hokage!" No problem with hope and passion from the main character, but his platform is pretty weak. 

As for "Kishi is a bad writer because people showed up just in time to save the day," that's retarded.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Nov 28, 2012)

^I agree. I think that is what I was trying to say above but couldn't make it shorter. XD


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 28, 2012)

LOL, people seriously complaining about the lack of main characters dying?

Reminds me of the times people bitched about Kishi not trolling Itachi....

Evidence, correlation, and common sense would suggest to expect more of the same, yet people would often get upset when Kishi opts to take such direction?

Kishi has OBVIOUS patterns within his writing.

It is these patterns, that's always kept a certain "Group" of characters(Uchihas) on top. So as a fan of such characters, I have no right to complain.

"Main characters dying" was a problem noticeable within part 1. I supposed now that it's getting a little closer to home, I suspect many fans of Madara/Obito are getting a little raddled.

Uchiha's are bad guys....."Losing to the good guys" is what "bad guys" do.

Taka failed to capture Hachibi.
Kisame failed to capture Hachibi
Nagato/Kabuto failed to capture Hachibi

Considering none of them failed to capture Hachibi "Due to lack of power"

Why, oh why.

Would Madara/Obito/Juubi should be expected to succeed?

(The Juubi was able to revived from a tentacle and "Proxy Pseudo Kyuubi's) 

Should have been the first hint that NO ONE IS CAPTURING Hachibi/Naruto.


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## Itachi Uchiha (Nov 28, 2012)

Tekkenman11 said:


> No, not fuck this manga.
> 
> Fuck you, sir.
> 
> Go do us a favor and stop posting in the telegrams you troll. Go read something else for the sake of all our sanity.





Wtf is wrong with this kind of people...i really hate the people that can't accept a simple critic to this manga and his bad characters....Cmon this is by far the most boring arc  on the entire series, and this is by far the worst chapter on the current arc. And dont come with the ?is aimed for kids? argument thats bullshit...Mangas should not be aimed for kids...shonen should be aimed for teenagers, is kinda the age that they can have a better understanding on the matter of death. And this manga have already killed some important characters...i dont see why other characters cannot die as well.

Kishimoto is screwing everything on every chapter...i dont know if he is sick of his own manga or so..but he should take some vacations then, to think on better ideas.


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## Itachi Uchiha (Nov 28, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> LOL, people seriously complaining about the lack of main characters dying?
> 
> Reminds me of the times people bitched about Kishi not trolling Itachi....
> 
> ...



No one is expecting them to succeed, just that this war is a total fail for Kishimoto. Is just anti climatic , this should be a very emotional arc for every character and thats not happening in any level,i dont feel this as a war, i just want this to finish already and go on... is boring as fuck.


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## shintebukuro (Nov 28, 2012)

Ace said:
			
		

> So not as a literary piece of work? It'd be nice if Kishimoto was, you know, original - and didn't simply write a story exactly the way a shounen is expected to be written. You know what we call that? Unoriginal.



Stop reading a Shounen and expecting anything but what the conventions are supposed to be.

What's fun and original that Kishimoto does is _how_ he handles the conventions.



> Wrong. Before Tobito, almost all of it sucked ever since the Nagato arc. I've been saying this for how long? The Tobito revelation just put the nail in the coffin.



The Tobito reveal put you and others into max overdrive, and now _everything_ is bad, every week.

And, no, I don't recall you hating the manga since the Nagato arc. Maybe you disliked it, but you must not have talked about it too much. Besides, I was around then, and the bitching was a fraction of what it is now.



> Constructive discussion in the KL hasn't existed since 09.



Alright, well it's gotten even worse than before. 



> And even if I were to compare it to it's own genre, it's still sub-par to other shounen like One Piece, Toriko and Dragonball. So the point makes no sense either way.



I can't speak for One Piece or Toriko, but I've read Dragon Ball (in fact, I love it), and it has far, _far_ more problems than this series. There's nonsensical powerups all over the place, no character has a truly unique fighting style, there's no value to any character dying, there's massive plot holes, etc etc. Believe me, I own the entire manga in both English and Japanese, and I've had it for over 10 years; I know quite a bit about the series. 

And by the way, Toriko isn't even at 200 chapters yet. If you want to compare it to Naruto, compare Naruto at 200 chapters to Toriko.

Go read Inuyasha, Rurouni Kenshin, Bleach, and Yu Yu Hakusho --some of the most popular Shounen ever-- and tell me how much better "writing" they have than Naruto...I just re-read Kenshin and I laughed at how bad some parts were, and I'm in the process of re-reading YYH, and it's so bad I'm embarrassed to have ever liked it in the first place (when I was much younger).



> I'm not asking to drop people left and right. I'm asking for Kishimoto to show some fucking balls and off a main character during the last final major conflict. If you're gonna ignore your side characters you may as well make this war seem threatening. There was no sense of urgency until Madara came out and when Obito confronted Naruto.
> 
> Is this so much to ask?



See, what you're doing is stubbornly sticking to some arbitrary stance, without budging, and then claiming that unless the author gives into your wishes, he's "bad."

I, personally, couldn't care less if any characters die. I don't feel like having to go through the whole flashback process and shit. Not to mention, I don't really care about these side characters and I believe their deaths would be abrupt and gimmicky.

If all of the sudden, Neji died in this fight, it wouldn't be "epic" like this fantasy you've constructed is. It would feel empty and unwarranted. 



			
				Satori Katsu said:
			
		

> Watching characters you do not know you empathize with isn't an excuse because it just a cowardly thing to do. It's pandering to your fans trying to make everybody happy rather than write a meaningful plot. Other manga do that too and it's just bad writing so I'm not sure why people compare this to that. Main character deaths create focused drama that holds more weight with the story and these characters.



This war is essentially a tournament arc where Kishimoto ties up as many loose ends as he can. We see the 7 Mist Swordsman, we see the Jinchuuriki, we see all the Bijuu, we see (almost) all the Kage, we see Hanzou, Mifune, Dan, Healthy Nagato, Gaara's Dad, and more.

These fights are not really dramatic because they're not supposed to be. The author is trying to cover as many un-explored "mythical" characters as he can to satisfy our imaginations. And he needed to do it _quick_.

Once that part of the war was done, we switched over to main character fights. And then the pacing slowed way down, since he was no longer rushing to get as many fights done as quickly as possible.

This war was the PERFECT opportunity for Kishi to tie up all those loose ends for us. The only problem is that some readers thought the war would be something it's not...



> Harry Potter was a children's book that at least killed off a few main characters in it's story and war. So the children's story argument doesn't exist, it's just lazy.



There's been deaths in this series, and there will be more to come. 

The problem is the misnomer that this war needed to contain more of them.



			
				Susanoo said:
			
		

> No one is expecting them to succeed, just that this war is a total fail for Kishimoto. Is just anti climatic , this should be a very emotional arc for every character and thats not happening in any level,i dont feel this as a war, i just want this to finish already and go on... is boring as fuck.



It's "boring?" 

It's currently dragging on a bit, which is the source of your feeling that it's boring, but this arc has contained more fights in a quicker time frame than any other arc in the manga. 

You haven't even allowed it to finish, or read it all the way through the same way you did for most of the series.

I'm sure if you read the Tsunade/Rasengan arc (from part 1) week by week, you'd think that was pretty boring as well. Or if you read the Sai/Sasuke arc week by week (which was so boring I actually dropped the manga for a few weeks).


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## αce (Nov 28, 2012)

> Stop reading a Shounen and expecting anything but what the conventions are supposed to be.



So basically I'm supposed to ignore the issues and simply accept that it's a shounen. Yeah, no thanks.


> The Tobito reveal put you and others into max overdrive, and now _everything_ is bad, every week.



Just more proof you don't know what the flying fuck you are talking about. Ever since the Tobi reveal I stopped posting in the KL as much as I used to. If anything it made me drop the debates and conversations I was having as opposed to during the time when the mask was on when I was furiously debating with everyone.

Overdrive? Yeah, try again son.
More like "Got the fuck out"


> And, no, I don't recall you hating the manga since the Nagato arc. Maybe  you disliked it, but you must not have talked about it too much.  Besides, I was around then, and the bitching was a fraction of what it  is now.



You don't know what you're talking about.
I've said multiple times - dare I say hundreds of times, that the conversion and the prophecy is the moment the manga went to shit.



> Alright, well it's gotten even worse than before.



This is hardly as bad as it used to be.
Hebi Sasuke days ring a bell?



> I can't speak for One Piece or Toriko, but I've read Dragon Ball (in fact, I love it), and it has far, _far_  more problems than this series. There's nonsensical powerups all over  the place, no character has a truly unique fighting style, there's no  value to any character dying, there's massive plot holes, etc etc.  Believe me, I own the entire manga in both English and Japanese, and  I've had it for over 10 years; I know quite a bit about the series.



Dragonball or Dragonball Z? They all have problems, even One Piece, which is my favourite. But they can be overlooked. I literally can't read 5-10 Naruto chapters without asking myself what the fuck the author was thinking.

Although Dragon ball Z after the cell saga was complete garbage.




> And by the way, Toriko isn't even at 200 chapters yet. If you want to  compare it to Naruto, compare Naruto at 200 chapters to Toriko.



Still better.



> Go read Inuyasha, Rurouni Kenshin, Bleach, and Yu Yu Hakusho --some of  the most popular Shounen ever-- and tell me how much better "writing"  they have than Naruto...I just re-read Kenshin and I laughed at how bad  some parts were, and I'm in the process of re-reading YYH, and it's so  bad I'm embarrassed to have ever liked it in the first place (when I was  much younger).



Bleach is borderline suicide worthy. So yes, agreed. Haven't read the others but I read some of Inuyasha. It dragged on to the point where I wanted to slam my face into a garbage truck.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 28, 2012)

Susanoo said:


> No one is expecting them to succeed, just that this war is a total fail for Kishimoto. Is just anti climatic , this should be a very emotional arc for every character and thats not happening in any level,i dont feel this as a war, i just want this to finish already and go on... is boring as fuck.


It's only fail if you came to the table expecting something.....

"War" is a "character" that is portrayed differently depending on the genre.

Some depict her as "Depressing" gloomy.

Some opt to "Glorify" her via patriotism...."Good guys" and "Bad guys" etc. etc.

Some opt to utilize her just to raise the stakes and advance the plot.

Clearly, Kishi's opt to take the later approach....As the "Depressing" gloomy option, was already explored in the "Pain" arc.

As far as the arc being boring? I supposed that's an issue of subjectivity.
Depending on what side of the fence you stand on.

My favorite character is Sasuke, and he's done little in terms of this war.

But I also like any and all things Uchiha, in which Itachi, Madara, and Obito are.

So overall I've enjoyed it so far..... 

But I've enjoyed it's effects on the Uchiha fanbase library even more.

Naruto fans are starting to become "Obnoxious" again, which is always a good thing; It implies a "None Uchiha" fanbase is eating, in which has always been a huge issue over the years.(They're the most hated for a reason)

The Rinnegan/Hashirama band wagoners are all but dead.(Or apart of the Uchiha fanbase now.)

And the Uchiha fanbase has gotten more diverse....Thus larger in return.
(That means less I hate "Sasuke" threads, in which has molded me into an occasional nasty individual over the years)

So again it all depends on what side of the fence you stand out....

I choose to look things from the half empty and half full perspective.
But I can clearly understand the pain of those that don't.


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## Hossaim (Nov 28, 2012)

> Lol at people saying this manga is shonen.

Naruto is shonen only by name. No content is this magna is shonen.

A 5 year old would get more enjoyment out of current Naruto than any teenager i have ever met.

Shonen is death note. This shit? I could read this shit to todlers and they would enjoy it. No fucking tension.


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## Kage (Nov 28, 2012)

Tsunade still has a good chance at dying if that makes you feel better?


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## Hossaim (Nov 28, 2012)

Kage said:


> Tsunade still has a good chance at dying if that makes you feel better?



A war kills 1 person with a recognisable name.

war before was potrayed as a horror with poeple not comming home and all this shit.

There have been no villages destroyed, nobody Naruto really cares about is going to die bar 1 person(MAYBE) who is kinda meh as a important character. Like fucking hell, this manga is for young adults not toddlers.


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## Kage (Nov 28, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> A war kills 1 person with a recognisable name.
> 
> war before was potrayed as a horror with poeple not comming home and all this shit.
> 
> There have been no villages destroyed, nobody Naruto really cares about is going to die bar 1 person(MAYBE) who is kinda meh as a important character. Like fucking hell, this manga is for young adults not toddlers.



> I know

> Don't Care

> don't know why people do this to themselves


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## The last Dalek (Nov 28, 2012)

I never understood why people insist on reading somthing they hate every weak. No this isnt using if you dont like dont read defense of the manga but a genuin question. 

Ile admitt Naruto has more than it's fair share of problems and the were more than a few moments I found cringe worthy but I still enjoy it overall inspite of that. If I didnt I would have droped it long ago.

Ive scene some people claim it's because they have been here from the start of because they still enjoy some aspects of it. But those arnt good reasons if you dont enjoy somthing overall it's not worth reading for the sake of those reasons.

Im not going to make anny arguments in Naruto's defense some of you hate it, some of you like it and I think it merely ok. We can just leave the discusion of it's quality at that.


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## Supa Swag (Nov 28, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> This has been clear for a while.
> 
> > Nagato revives Konoha and is converted with a book
> > The good guys have to fight two Big Bads and an army of zombies and clones, which means they don't have to experience the horrors of having other human beings as ther enemies and all that it implies



This, completly.

Naruto is definitely gotten 'safer' since the Rescue Sasuke arc.



Arthas said:


> Actually the one thing I really hate about Naruto is this:
> 
> Naruto pretends to or at least Kishi attempts to address serious & big issues  and builds things up but then just when it seems any big issue is about to be addressed he just wimps out and resorts to childish solutions or reversals.
> 
> ...




This was always my biggest issue with Naruto when I actually gave a shit about it. There were two instances through reading where I could see that these issues were becoming incredibly apparent:

(minor one)-Sai's introduction. He was presented as a ninja raised by Danzou to be an emotionless machine. He had issues with his brother so it was obvious that there was something more to him. He winds up choosing not to kill Sasuke because of Naruto, giving genuine smiles and giving inspirational speeches to his comrades after Sasuke escapes...this all happens in seemingly a blink of an eye. Seeing how quickly he was converted made me question Kishimoto's intent seriously for the first time.


(MAJOR ONE)-Nagato.Conversion.Ressurection. I really shouldn't have to expand on this but I will anyway since I'm bored. A major part of Nagato's character is being a personification of that "circle of hatred" and the consequences of Konoha's (and other major villages) actions. He was one of the few to truly challenge Naruto's ideology, even making Naruto question himself on how to truly achieve peace with people who have been so abused and broken that they have no intention of working towards those same ideals. Given his ideology and his strength he seemed to be a significant character who would provide insights for such a complex issue.

What winds up happening is Naruto doesn't have an answer to Nagato's question (only saying I'll keep trying) and through bullshit manages to convert Nagato, an adult male who for the majority of his life grew up fighting against major villages and is responsible for several heinous acts. Not only is he converted, he resurrects all those he killed in the village, so now instead of Naruto having to deal with rebuilding the broken village after a large portion of the population was decimated, he just has to deal with building some now houses/stores/etc.






Now I dunno if Kishimoto can't provide more mature and complex answers because of the strictness of current Shounen Jump or because he is completely incapable of doing so due to his ineptness as a writer and bit off more than he could chew. Whatever the answer, that whole arc let me really know what this manga's all about...and the funny thing is when I look back at part 1 I can see similar situations.


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## Turrin (Nov 28, 2012)

Pika clearly Kishimoto originally intended to have the good guys struggle more and have some deaths, but than Ino reaper of souls mind raped him and forced him to write the manga as she dictated. It is the only logical explanation for this chapter.


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## JPongo (Nov 28, 2012)

Talk about critics.

Write your own damn manga then.


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## ZeroWolf123 (Nov 28, 2012)

my death toll: still has not been met


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## Burke (Nov 28, 2012)

plenty of good guys have died
like _thousands_
its just there are a specific group of about 20 good guys you WANT to see die
you sick sadistic bastard


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## insane111 (Nov 28, 2012)

Guess what, this manga is going to end with Sasuke back in the village, Naruto as Hokage, and everyone lives happily ever after.

(spoiler alert)


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

There's no need to defend my argument against people who just came in this thread to gatecrash. It's obviously not going to go anywhere.



Lelouch71 said:


> Good
> 
> Lose all expectations for this manga and become just like me. Become cynical and indifferent to what Kishimoto does.



Funny how everyone always says I'm such a pessimistic dick and I have no hope.

I just love this manga too much. 



Turrin said:


> Pika clearly Kishimoto originally intended to have the good guys struggle more and have some deaths, but than Ino reaper of souls mind raped him and forced him to write the manga as she dictated. It is the only logical explanation for this chapter.



I know, I know. 

I honestly can't think of any better explanation either.



Arthas said:


> Actually the one thing I really hate about Naruto is this:
> 
> *Naruto pretends to or at least Kishi attempts to address serious & big issues  and builds things up but then just when it seems any big issue is about to be addressed he just wimps out and resorts to childish solutions or reversals.
> *
> ...



This is exactly the problem, though I guess a lot of people reading my thread can't seem to see it.

Naruto wants to create a world with no war, one with nothing but peace, because war is horrible and has destroyed the lives of so many before him (key word: before). Now that Naruto gets his war, nothing bad happens. There is no loss, no suffering. Hell, even most of the bad guys are either clones or people already dead, so the same can really be said for both sides here.

It not only makes the whole war a joke, but in a weird way, it makes Naruto's dream a joke as well because...why bother?

Anyway +reps, Arthas. Thank you for being capable of giving an in-depth answer that summed up my feelings more than I could.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Daxter (Nov 28, 2012)

Somewhere, someone I know is imploding and preparing his neg power by the truckload. 

But anyways. 

I agree. I like Naruto, certainly don't hate it, but I _do hate_ that I'm invested in it because it's becoming a let down. Until the war arc, I had very few problems, and the ones I did have were largely characterisation problems.

Now we have Jesus and his converted disciples and a war without death. We have a man who's threatened the world for the sake of a childhood crush. We have a man that can't get over his inferiority complex. We have a FV battle in which nothing is really happening. We have some serious Sailor Moon shit, in which the combined power of the scouts alliance will overcome the all powerful FV at last through the power of friendship and their overly haxxed leader. 

I'm just waiting now for Tsunade to pull a houdini, and for one of the ridiculous B3 to magically happen in the midst of this not so life threatening battle.

I know many people hate the Sauce, but at this point, I think even they can agree that he might just be the most interesting thing in this story now. Not that his subplot's conclusion will be unpredictable in any way, but at least there's some real darkness there, however unwarranted it might actually be. 

And yeah, as much as I like Bee, he didn't die.

And I fucking hate that he didn't die.


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## KevKev (Nov 28, 2012)

What if Kishi is too afraid to kill off his characters because he likes them so much?


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## gershwin (Nov 28, 2012)

Cryppled Dogma said:


> We have some serious Sailor Moon shit, in which the combined power of the scouts alliance will overcome the all powerful FV at last through the power of friendship and their overly haxxed leader.



Sailor Moon final fight  > > > > this battle. It had emotions, inner conflict, feeling of despair, tense, a lot of information was revealed etc.  Senshi were dying at least (even if not for a long time), in manga heroine had to fight and kill her friends.
god, this is sad  
I just hope its not a real culmination.


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## Jeefus (Nov 28, 2012)

@Op

comes with being a shounen manga


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

For everyone who keeps bringing up the shounen argument, I only have two words for you:

Death Note.

DN was an SJ manga and killed off both of the "heroes", as well as just about everyone else. Now I'm not asking for anything like that (in case anyone was wondering), but people really need to stop falling back on the "well it's a shounen manga" when there are very obvious, and very famous, examples contrary to this argument.


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## General Mael Radec (Nov 28, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> For everyone who keeps bringing up the shounen argument, I only have two words for you:
> 
> Death Note.
> 
> DN was an SJ manga and killed off both of the "heroes", as well as just about everyone else. Now I'm not asking for anything like that (in case anyone was wondering), but people really need to stop falling back on the "well it's a shounen manga" when there are very obvious, and very famous, examples contrary to this argument.



Death note isint like other shounen, its about a normal life in present day where a kid finds a killer notebook and runs around killing people. You didnt see L flying and shooting lazers While Light powers up to deflect the attack now didnt you? its a piss poor comparison. Now if you said Fairy tail or one piece then that would make ALOT better arguement but in those shounen people tend to not die as well.


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## Haloman (Nov 28, 2012)

I dunno why everyone complains so much in this manga. So 40,000 soldiers just showed up. Juubi is about to crush them all.

Remember the Zetsu army? 100,000 of them. 50,000 of them were killed. Likewise, the shinobi army lost 40,000 out of 80,000 troops. Despite this seeming stalemate, the Zetsu were about to win the war. Except Naruto showed up and helped turn the tide of battle.

If 40,000 shinobi are able to beat Juubi, that means that Juubi is only as strong as 50,000 Zetsu despite the fact that only a portion of its chakra was used to make all 100,000.

Juubi is seriously about to pwn everyone. Naruto's going to end up fighting his way out of Mugen Tsukiyomi.


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## SacredX (Nov 28, 2012)

One thing I will say about this war is it would've been completely disrespectful for any major character to be killed off by a Zetsu clone or undead Zombie who already played their part in this manga.

The only enemies capable of giving a character a meaningful death are Madara, the Juubi, and Obito.


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## Seph (Nov 28, 2012)

General Mael Radec said:


> Death note isint like other shounen, its about a normal life in present day where a kid finds a killer notebook and runs around killing people. You didnt see L flying and shooting lazers While Light powers up to deflect the attack now didnt you? its a piss poor comparison. Now if you said Fairy tail or one piece then that would make ALOT better arguement but in those shounen people tend to not die as well.



It doesn't matter if it isn't like other shonen. It doesn't matter if it's about "a normal life in present day where a kid finds a killer notebook and runs around killing people." It's still a shonen published in Shonen Jump just like Naruto; yet, it has plenty of death.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

General Mael Radec said:


> Death note isint like other shounen, its about a normal life in present day where a kid finds a killer notebook and runs around killing people. You didnt see L flying and shooting lazers While Light powers up to deflect the attack now didnt you? its a piss poor comparison. Now if you said Fairy tail or one piece then that would make ALOT better arguement but in those shounen people tend to not die as well.



I don't read enough shounen to be able to make complex genre comparisons. I'm merely saying that you can't use "it's a shounen" as an excuse when shounen manga exist where good guys die all the time. 

There are also plenty of shounen that fit under your category of intense fantasy, where you really don't know what will happen all the time, and where there is genuine tension in battles even if nobody ultimately dies. A really good author should be able to pull that off. 



Haloman said:


> I dunno why everyone complains so much in this manga. So 40,000 soldiers just showed up. Juubi is about to crush them all.
> 
> Remember the Zetsu army? 100,000 of them. 50,000 of them were killed. Likewise, the shinobi army lost 40,000 out of 80,000 troops. Despite this seeming stalemate, the Zetsu were about to win the war. Except Naruto showed up and helped turn the tide of battle.
> 
> ...



If you are right here, I will rep you twice every week until the manga ends. 

I've believed this for a long time but every week, my hope wanes.


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## UzumakiMAAKU (Nov 28, 2012)

So, you want to see clones and zombies 'n' shit kill off notable characters? Hell no, dude! The only villains worthy of killing anybody of note at this point, are Madara, Obito and TT. I'm sure we'll see some fuckin' blood soon... if not, I'll drop this Manga faster than Kim Kardashian drops her panties at the sight of a checkbook . 

I can understand why people are pissed, but I'd pissed _more_ if the likes of Shikamaru died at the hands of a Zetsu.


----------



## Missing_Nin (Nov 28, 2012)

azn7136 said:


> Inb4 Juubi destroys the Shinobi Alliance.



last page of the next chapter

40,000 alliance shinobi dead.



DragonOfChoas said:


> Next chapter everyone bar Naruto will die, only for Obito to revive them afterwards.



he got the rinnegan for something right?


----------



## Azaleia (Nov 28, 2012)

Haloman said:


> *Juubi is seriously about to pwn everyone. Naruto's going to end up fighting his way out of Mugen Tsukiyomi.*




Like in RTN?  That would be awesome 

Kind of, sort of...


----------



## Gino (Nov 28, 2012)

What is this shit Kishi should have just killed all the uchiha's this would have been a much better manga lol.


----------



## Seraphiel (Nov 28, 2012)

Erm JJBA is/was until recently also shonen and chars died left and right.


----------



## Pyre's Plight (Nov 28, 2012)

Here's the thing.

There seems to be this misunderstanding that characters need to die in order to make the war have some sort of impact. That isn't true. I barely cared when Shizune died in the Pein arc because, honestly, she isn't a very important or present character. I wouldn't care now if characters like Aoi and Ebisu died either. Now because Pika and the others are sensible people, I can safely say that they are NOT upset because characters aren't dying.

The real problem here is that the characters aren't even in any danger of dying. For the near entirety of the war, they have barely been in any danger at all. Aside from Madara's battle with the kages (which ended with them all badly injured and Tsunade torn in half), it's hard to name any instances in which you felt as if a character was even threatened on the Alliance's side. Nobody has really been pushed to their limits and nobody has had to struggle.

Look at the battle Kabuto had with Sasuke and Itachi. Did it really seem as though the Uchiha bros stood a chance at being threatened? Look at the battle between any of the Edo Tensei zombies and other characters. The good guys don't really break a sweat when coming out on top and there haven't really been any moments that make you feel as though they won't. Yes. We ALL know the good guys will eventually win. We knew Goku would eventually beat Freiza. We knew the same thing would happen with Buu. But those were some tough battles and Goku didn't make it look easy. 

That's kind of the issue with Part 2. The Pein fight was mostly good because it didn't look like Naruto would win at times. His "fight" with Kakuza? Not at all. This war has some problems and this is just one of them. The enemy isn't "hatred" like the manga has been saying. It's just a bunch of zombies and Zetsu clones. Expendable fodder, mainly. 

The war arc in One Piece was the exact opposite. Even if Ace hadn't died, it would have been an amazing arc nonetheless. Why? Because the marines actually managed to come off as a powerful force that was even able to stand up against Whitebeard. Obito? The guy lacks some serious villain presence.


----------



## vagnard (Nov 28, 2012)

You just have to lose all your hope on Kishimoto. He already gave Madara his love speech as motive. Obito, Madara and Juubi... all of them will be defeated here. Madara won't be an exception. Kishimoto likes to turn his villians into crap in order to make them believable Naruto's fodder. 

When Obito was Tobi he never showed signs to be a reedemable villian. He met Naruto many times... hell as Akatsuki leader he spied Naruto all his life but he "just now" recognize he resemble to him a lot. LOL. 

Villians in this manga drop 100 IQ points in front of Naruto automatically. Just as Tobi never showed signs to be a retard before this battle (actually Kishimoto portrayed him as a genius mastermind before Obito's revelation) the same will happen with Madara. Hell I even see Juubi suffering PNJ. This manga has become so retarded that maybe Neji will be countering bijuudamas the next chapter with kaiten despise all rookies being fodder for Zetsu in this very arc. 

I just want to see the end of the manga already. I don't have any favourite character anymore. Kishimoto ruined EVERYONE.


----------



## Tidezen (Nov 28, 2012)

improbably coming in at the very last minute to save the heroes when everything seems lost is a very, very old and established trope.  It's just a staple of hero fiction.

As for death of major characters in a storyline, well, some authors do it and some don't.  People who have read a lot of Shounen understand that named "good guys" dying is usually the exception rather than the rule.  In Naruto it's happened twice so far (three if you count Granny, a few more if you count historical characters).

If you don't read a lot of Shounen, the easiest comparison might be to the old Western serials.  The good guys win, bad guys lose, and there are hardly ever any casualties.  That's just how it is, and probably always will be, in this genre of fiction.

While I personally agree with you, in that I prefer darker stories with more realistic portrayals of the randomness of death and the uncertainty of victory, calling Kishi a "coward", is a bit like saying the Avengers movie sucked because it didn't have realistic portrayals of death.  Well of course not, it's a superhero summer action movie, what the hell did you expect? 

I can't say it enough--Naruto is a story about _teenage magical ninjas_.  If you paid for a ticket to go see a movie about teenage magical ninjas, I sure hope you leave your expectations at the door.  Have some popcorn, and have fun; otherwise, you're missing the whole point of this sort of entertainment.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Pyre's Plight said:


> Here's the thing.
> 
> There seems to be this misunderstanding that characters need to die in order to make the war have some sort of impact. That isn't true. I barely cared when Shizune died in the Pein arc because, honestly, she isn't a very important or present character. I wouldn't care now if characters like Aoi and Ebisu died either. Now because Pika and the others are sensible people, I can safely say that they are NOT upset because characters aren't dying.
> 
> *The real problem here is that the characters aren't even in any danger of dying. For the near entirety of the war, they have barely been in any danger at all.* Aside from Madara's battle with the kages (which ended with them all badly injured and Tsunade torn in half), it's hard to name any instances in which you felt as if a character was even threatened on the Alliance's side. Nobody has really been pushed to their limits and nobody has had to struggle.



_Exactly_, and thank you for saying that. 

There is no tension whatsoever in this war. Madara off-paneling the kages was the only real "HOLY SHIT" moment in this war, and it was a real punch in the gut to everyone who had been saying for a year that the kages would win. Barring those two pages though, this war arc has been a complete joke. 

If one of the rookies got decapitated next week, or Kakashi was incinerated, there'd be no reaction from the forums because we'd all know that the week after that, they'd be miraculously healed somehow. 

Killer Bee just _threw himself into the eye of the Juubi_, and survived, despite the fact that all logic and build-up pointed towards the villains wanting the hachibi (and even if they didn't care anymore, why not just eat him and gain more power anyway?). If someone can survive THAT, then nobody is going to die.

The bad guys are being so ridiculously nerfed it's not funny. It's just sad, and it reflects terribly on the author.



> Look at the battle Kabuto had with Sasuke and Itachi. Did it really seem as though the Uchiha bros stood a chance at being threatened? Look at the battle between any of the Edo Tensei zombies and other characters. The good guys don't really break a sweat when coming out on top and there haven't really been any moments that make you feel as though they won't. Yes. We ALL know the good guys will eventually win. We knew Goku would eventually beat Freiza. We knew the same thing would happen with Buu. But those were some tough battles and Goku didn't make it look easy.



The only tension in the Kabuto battle was that some people believed that Kabuto would destroy Itachi, and I think some of the Itachi fans, whether they would admit it or not, were concerned about that as well. But that's been pretty much the only remotely "anxious" moment of the series, and even then, the dude was dead anyway. 



> That's kind of the issue with Part 2. The Pein fight was mostly good because it didn't look like Naruto would win at times. His "fight" with Kakuza? Not at all. This war has some problems and this is just one of them. The enemy isn't "hatred" like the manga has been saying. It's just a bunch of zombies and Zetsu clones. Expendable fodder, mainly.



Yep, exactly. 

As someone said earlier, he'd rage if a rookie was killed by a Zetsu clone. The same for most of the Edos brought back, really. Kishi set it up right from the start. As soon as we saw the villains in this war, we were all like "Yep, okay, unless Obito or Kabuto singlehandedly go down there and start slaughtering people, that force is going to be 100% ineffective. Madara was the saving grace in that respect.



> The war arc in One Piece was the exact opposite. Even if Ace hadn't died, it would have been an amazing arc nonetheless. Why? Because the marines actually managed to come off as a powerful force that was even able to stand up against Whitebeard. Obito? The guy lacks some serious villain presence.



And the guy who doesn't lack villain presence is made to stand there and give snarky commentary. If Madara not being the center of attention means he's going to survive this battle, that's great. But really, Kishi needs to step up the pace in terms of ominous villains.

The poor juubi is like some sadsack ugly fish that the petshop owner had to bring home when he closed the store down because he felt bad for it that nobody bought it. It's so ugly it's almost cute, and it hasn't done anything remotely intimidating yet.


----------



## Bender (Nov 28, 2012)

@ people two starring this thread. 

The truth hurt folks. 

Not a single goddamn person has died at this point which is supposed to be the final battle. Also the idea of the last page being a supposed "win" moment for Naruto's side is pathetic. Last I checked not too many people on Naruto's side can match the first hokage's power which Madara has said is the only person who could match him.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 28, 2012)

Bender said:


> @ people two starring this thread.
> 
> The truth hurt folks.
> 
> Not a single goddamn person has died at this point which is supposed to be the final battle. Also the idea of the last page being a supposed "win" moment for Naruto's side is pathetic. Last I checked not too many people on Naruto's side can match the first hokage's power which Madara has said is the only person who could match him.



You're forgetting the power of plot and villain-nerfing. This chapter was an excellent example of that as well. 

Strongest attack of the strongest, most evil being ever to exist in the universe? No hero needed for this one. A fodder-level rookie can stop it. Not to bash Ino because I don't care. That was just flat-out stupid though.

Kishi set it up so that the Juubi's brain is Obito's, which means it's automatically stupid, human, easily swayed, and easily distracted.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Nov 29, 2012)

I guess Kishimoto doesn't want to be known in Shounen Jump as 'the guy with all the deaths (and no revivals) in his series.'  Besides, this is a comedy manga (although not really funny), as hard as it is to accept.




Rainbird said:


> Go read Berserk.


Berserk is shit.


----------



## Medea (Nov 29, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Pyre's Plight said:


> Here's the thing.
> 
> There seems to be this misunderstanding that characters need to die in order to make the war have some sort of impact. That isn't true. I barely cared when Shizune died in the Pein arc because, honestly, she isn't a very important or present character. I wouldn't care now if characters like Aoi and Ebisu died either. Now because Pika and the others are sensible people, I can safely say that they are NOT upset because characters aren't dying.
> 
> ...






Summed my thoughts and feelings exactly. If everyone escapes unscathed from THE Juubi attack (which IS supposed to be one of the most destructive forces ever, or at least powerful) then we can forget about peril for the characters or deaths later on


----------



## Naruto (Nov 29, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> For everyone who keeps bringing up the shounen argument, I only have two words for you:
> 
> Death Note.



This is not a valid argument for two reasons:

1) That manga has fuck-all to do with your typical shonen slot. How it even ended up there is beyond...everyone, I think.

2) The entirety of the plot revolves around death on a systematic basis and massive scale. Would be kind of pathetic if it didn't kill off anyone important.

Even if you were to ignore these two factors you're still pointing out ONE manga in god knows how many others that don't do any better than Naruto.

I'm not even arguing about the quality of the Naruto manga here. I'm not even saying it wouldn't benefit from some more tragic losses like Jiraiya. I'm saying it's fucking ridiculous to single out Kishimoto as though he's the one at fault here and not the industry he works in, the publishers these mangaka answer to, and the target demographic they're aiming for.



PikaCheeka said:


> Then don't bitch about us bitching. Problem solved. Why can't people figure out how stupid they sound when they go into a bitching thread and cry about it?



Bitching about bitching about bitching.

Bitchception.

Pot, meet kettle.

*P.S.:* Negativity breeds negativity. Online Forums 101.


----------



## Seph (Nov 29, 2012)

Naruto said:


> 1) That manga has fuck-all to do with your typical shonen slot. How it even ended up there is beyond...everyone, I think.
> 
> 2) The entirety of the plot revolves around death on a systematic basis and massive scale. Would be kind of pathetic if it didn't kill off anyone important.



Both of them are still shonen--there is nothing you can do to change this truth. Death Note is what we would see as the maximum amount of death for a shonen, so Naruto can easily include more deaths without sacrificing its "shonen integrity," for the lack of a better phrase.  Everyone would agree that more deaths would make the war more realistic and, as a result, make the manga better written. Kishimoto knows he can kill more people in his shonen manga; he just refuses to because he's scared of something. Right now, this just seems like a war that would only take place in Teletubbies.


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## Naruto (Nov 29, 2012)

I realize this is a double post but I want people to notice it:

*Please use spoiler tags when talking about other manga.*

This is not so much a rule as it is common courtesy. I imagine anyone who still hasn't read Death Note has had a major part of its plot completely ruined by this thread. That's a bloody shame, because it's a good story.


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## Naruto (Nov 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> Both of them are still shonen--there is nothing you can do to change this truth. Death Note is what we would see as the maximum amount of death for a shonen, so Naruto can easily include more deaths without sacrificing its "shonen integrity," for the lack of a better phrase.  Everyone would agree that more deaths would make the war more realistic and, as a result, make the manga better written. Kishimoto knows he can kill more people in his shonen manga; he just refuses to because he's scared of something. Right now, this just seems like a war that would only take place in Teletubbies.



The portion of my post you left out explains the point you missed.

I'm not debating whether or not it would benefit this manga to have some more major casualties - it would - I'm saying it's ridiculous to call Kishimoto a coward in the midst of so many of his peers doing, frankly, worse.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Nov 29, 2012)

I don't know if i want Bee to die but someone i gave a shit not just because she had big tits should've. But Kishi can't even kill a few named fodders?


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## Kronin (Nov 29, 2012)

Death Note spoilers: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



The funny thing is that the major critique aimed at Death Note is just that after the death of one of his main characters, a lot of readers (not me) think that the story become useless or boring...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2012)

You know I am fine with people getting hospitalized. Instead of magically saved or healed.

Even that would serve to some extend. 


This manga tried to become more  than what it was destined to be. When it turned to child of prophecy, love peace and harmony and other bullshit, it failed. It had to retain its dark side. Nothing is more boring than a protangonist who is trying to be perfect. 

A story is good when there is balance. Ying Yang bitches. Every evil has some good inside, and every good has some evil in it.
You have to make villains likable, add some trace of humanity. And all good characters should have bad sides. Thats the only way we can identify with them. Its not their perfection. Its their flaws. We are human.

Ending my rant with a quote from Master Yoda.

"Terrible writer you've become. Go to exile you must."


----------



## Seph (Nov 29, 2012)

Naruto said:


> The portion of my post you left out explains the point you missed.
> 
> I'm not debating whether or not it would benefit this manga to have some more major casualties - it would - I'm saying it's ridiculous to call Kishimoto a coward in the midst of so many of his peers doing, frankly, worse.



That doesn't excuse him, though, does it? Just because others are doing worse doesn't mean he's doing fine.

If I was in a course where I failed with a 50/100 and my classmates failed with 30/100, that wouldn't excuse me.


----------



## Escargon (Nov 29, 2012)

This shity war is nothing.

We have seen much worser thing on this "child" manga like people being scared to death being in the middle of a fog afraid of getting their troath cut.

If im not mixing this up. Zabuzas from Naruto right? Feels like im reading two different mangas, lol is this war? I mean they are treatening Juubi as a Rattata and noones dying.


----------



## Nuuskis (Nov 29, 2012)

SacredX said:


> One thing I will say about this war is it would've been completely disrespectful for any major character to be killed off by a Zetsu clone or undead Zombie who already played their part in this manga.
> 
> The only enemies capable of giving a character a meaningful death are Madara, the Juubi, and Obito.



I agree with the Zetsu part but totally disagree with Zombie parts.

It would bring effective drama if some shinobi would have been killed by his former reanimated friend. Like in example if Kurenai would have been killed by Asuma, or Hizashi killing Hiashi, or heck, Dan killing Tsunade.


----------



## gershwin (Nov 29, 2012)

Escargon said:


> This shity war is nothing.
> 
> We have seen much worser thing on this "child" manga like people being scared to death being in the middle of a fog afraid of getting their troath cut.
> 
> If im not mixing this up. Zabuzas from Naruto right? Feels like im reading two different mangas, lol is this war? I mean they are treatening Juubi as a Rattata and noones dying.


Its true, there won`t be as much complains if the manga took current approach from the very beginning, there will be no disappointment. But, for good or for bad, we tasted quality.


Kronin said:


> Death Note spoilers:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




L`s death at such an early point was a big and unpleasant twist. People wanted for L, not new characters to continue mind games with Light till the end. Their rivalry had a great build up and they had what is called "chemistry" between them. Manga lost a certain charm when he was removed, imo.


----------



## Arthas (Nov 29, 2012)

gershwin said:


> Its true, there won`t be as much complains if the manga took current approach from the very beginning, there will be no disappointment. But, for good or for bad, we tasted quality.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Agreed about the quality.

As far as Death Note goes, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Imagine if Naruto died against Jyuubi/Madara and when it comes to Sasuke, it is the K11 who take up the fight. 
A good writer could make that awesome, but it would loose the fans of the Naruto/Sasuke rivalry no matter how good it was.


----------



## Burke (Nov 29, 2012)

inb4 none of the main cast of one piece die in its finale, and noone complains.


----------



## BlueDemon (Nov 29, 2012)

Guess I?m in the 2nd category and the I feel with the guys who still really care...


----------



## Max Thunder (Nov 29, 2012)

It's not the fact that there are not enough deaths *through out the manga*.

It's the fact that there are not enough deaths in a fucking *war arc*.

Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion but personally, I don't believe this arc deserves to be called a war because that would imply the opposing side is actually retaliating.

I think the alliance should get an award or something for most successful army to ever exist in fiction.


----------



## ShadowReij (Nov 29, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?


No, as plenty died just no one that has a name. And the good guys have had plenty of problems in this conflict which I'm pretty sure you've read most of. Gedo, Madara, newly revived Juubi, shape shifting zetsus, those are what you call problems.



> Just when we get an "and all hope is lost" moment, 40,000 fodder shinobi show up to save the day. Really? There is no suspense in this war. It's a total joke.



You really think they're going to be able to do anything? 



> And was anyone else expecting all the kages to appear too, magically healed?
> 
> Fuck this manga.


That's very possible actually.



> Edit, for the confused: KILLER BEE DIDN'T DIE. *KILLER BEE DIDN'T DIE* when half of the Telegrams last week all thought he would. This chapter proved that he didn't and never will. There. I explained it for all those who missed that part of the chapter.



Then that was a horrible assumption on "half" of the telegrams considering I didn't see any indications showing or even hinting that Bee would die this chapter from 610. That the attack would fail, well that was obvious, but that Bee would die, no.




Klue said:


> At least we no longer have to hear the "where are the rookies," complaint.



Oh come on, that wasn't more of a complaint as more of a fun joke.


----------



## ZE (Nov 29, 2012)

If Death Note is a normal shounen just because it was on SJ then so is Ichigo 100%, which is a manga about a boy and three girls that like him and that try to please him chapter after chapter. Believe it or not, not all mangas in SJ can be considered shounen. They are supposed to be, but once in a while one or two happen to be lack the characteristics of what makes a shounen manga. Death Note for example is a manga that lacks fights because it is not about that at all. And if you asked the kids in japan who like to read shounen mangas, the first thing they would want in a manga is for it to have awesome and entertaining fights. You wouldn?t expect them to answer: ?I want many deaths?


Frankly, this is what part of the fans wanted. Or need I remind you how almost all of the people here were in favor of having Itachi cancel the strongest bad guy in the war, edo Madara, just so he could save everyone?s asses? 

Naruto, Bee, Itachi vs Nagato ? the majority wanted the good guys to win
Kabuto vs uchiha bros ? more of the same 
Naruto vs Pain ? they wanted naruto to win
Kakashi vs Pain ? they wanted Kakashi to win
etc. 

You should?ve complained sooner, not only when your favorite character is fighting the good guys.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Nov 29, 2012)

Naruto said:


> This is not a valid argument for two reasons:
> 
> 1) That manga has fuck-all to do with your typical shonen slot. How it even ended up there is beyond...everyone, I think.
> 
> ...



Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic.

Fullmetal Alchemist

JJBA

Shingeki no Kyojin


----------



## Itachi Uchiha (Nov 29, 2012)

Kronin said:


> Death Note spoilers:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah, but dont dare to compare L to any of Naruto characters, we are  not asking Naruto or Sasuke to die...but there are many characters that their deaths wont affect the story as it and will give it some war atmosphere. If Killer B or any K11 die what is the worst that would happen?  and about DN wasnt just for the death of L but for the introduction of Mello and Near, they in my opinion weren't the best characters out there.


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## Naruto (Nov 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> That doesn't excuse him, though, does it? Just because others are doing worse doesn't mean he's doing fine.
> 
> If I was in a course where I failed with a 50/100 and my classmates failed with 30/100, that wouldn't excuse me.



So then all current successful mangaka are cowards and we should be flooding every relevant section with threads such as these


----------



## Kronin (Nov 29, 2012)

Susanoo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but dont dare to compare L to any of Naruto characters, we are  not asking Naruto or Sasuke to die...but there are many characters that their deaths wont affect the story as it and will give it some war atmosphere. If Killer B or any K11 die what is the worst that would happen?  and about DN wasnt just for the death of L but for the introduction of Mello and Near, they in my opinion weren't the best characters out there.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I know, my post wanted be a little provocative (off course a character like L is in the manga just comparable to Naruto or Sasuke), but anyway create a war atmosphere is really different to put deaths of characters without criteria. The death of Tsunade can represent many things, the death of a person of the new generations, like from K11, would be meaningless for the moral of the story and the sense of this war put in the manga (a generational conflict). I don't know if you read Shin Angyo Onshi (a beautiful manhwa/manga also if not without flaws): the last arc end with a war and also if has the element death inside it, I'm not the only one to think that for certain characters was just a gratuitous way to add casualties without add drama or a narrative purpose to them. We must always remember that Naruto is 1) a fictional story where everything, deaths included, happen for a certain reason (sadly not the same seems happen in the real world) 2) oriented toward young teenagers.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Nov 29, 2012)

Naruto said:


> So then all current successful mangaka are cowards and we should be flooding every relevant section with threads such as these



You are deflecting.


----------



## Bender (Nov 29, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> Berserk is shit.



You want to be negged real bad don't you.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 29, 2012)

Naruto said:


> So then all current successful mangaka are cowards and we should be flooding every relevant section with threads such as these



If you seem to want to focus solely on the three big shounen at the time, then this argument still fails.

As a few people have pointed out, in One Piece, even if not that many characters die, the wars have real tension because not only are the villains actually very real and threatening, but there is a genuine sense of "I don't know what is going to happen." In Bleach? I can't say because I stopped reading it, but when I was reading it, at least in the earlier arcs, this tension also existed.

Arthas put it very well. Naruto is meant to be a manga about the importance of friendship against all odds, and about the horrors of war and the necessity to eliminate them. Naruto is the "savior" of the world. He is meant to eradicate the world of war and everything terrible that comes with it.

Thing is, the only war Naruto has ever lived in (this one) is grossly unrealistic to the point of being a complete joke. Naruto is doing such a great job at being the savior because he has nothing to fight against. The opposing army was a bunch of cloned plants and zombies. Itachi offed one of the only three remotely threatening figures. Another turned out to be a total joke (regardless of what one feels about Tobito, I don't think anyone still finds him intimidating). And the third is continually put to the side because Kishimoto knows he can't realistically use him. The only villain who IS a threat at all is the snarky commentator who says what the readers are all thinking, but doesn't actually do anything.

There is no danger in this war. It isn't just the fact that nobody's dying. It's the fact that we all KNOW nobody is going to die, despite the odds. We all KNOW that the villains are going to be horribly, pathetically nerfed and it will be in the end as if they never existed. It's just become a boring, predictable read.

How can Naruto fight against the horrors of war when he's never had to face them?


----------



## Kusa (Nov 29, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> If you seem to want to focus solely on the three big shounen at the time, then this argument still fails.
> 
> As a few people have pointed out, in One Piece, even if not that many characters die, the wars have real tension because not only are the villains actually very real and threatening, but there is a genuine sense of "I don't know what is going to happen." In Bleach? I can't say because I stopped reading it, but when I was reading it, at least in the earlier arcs, this tension also existed.
> 
> ...



I agree with the bolded part.


----------



## Hossaim (Nov 29, 2012)

Kronin said:


> Death Note spoilers:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



The reason L's death fucked up Death Note is because what made Death Note good was Light vs L. Thier batlte of wits is what made the series so fun, but then L died. The fight was over. Light won. Expect no, now there is some random 10 year old pirck and the ending was just wtf horrible. 





PikaCheeka said:


> If you seem to want to focus solely on the three big shounen at the time, then this argument still fails.
> 
> As a few people have pointed out, in One Piece, even if not that many characters die, the wars have real tension because not only are the villains actually very real and threatening, but there is a genuine sense of "I don't know what is going to happen." In Bleach? I can't say because I stopped reading it, but when I was reading it, at least in the earlier arcs, this tension also existed.
> 
> ...


----------



## Enclave (Nov 29, 2012)

People thought Bee was going to die last week?  I didn't notice anybody saying that.  Though, I didn't spend much time in Telegrams last week.


----------



## Kronin (Nov 29, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> The reason L's death fucked up Death Note is because what made Death Note good was Light vs L. Thier batlte of wits is what made the series so fun, but then L died. The fight was over. Light won. Expect no, now there is some random 10 year old pirck and the ending was just wtf horrible.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I disagree with this, for me Death note remains interesting also after L's death, for certain aspects more now that: 
-Kira and the new L are the same person and that Light must act in a way completely different from the first part where he was directly involved in his actions; 
-the personality of L return divided in two characters making three scenario with players that act in different ways; 
-in the end we assist to a real climax (L's death according to me is not climatic because from the moment that Light gain the memory and kill the previous Kira, he has already won and there is nothing that suggest in him or in the readers doubts about it: I think that probably this was a choice of the authors knowing that this event wasn't the end of the manga, but anyway I would like the victory of Light more unpredictable until the end -like his defeat in the end-, and not already decided various chapter before the death of the detective); according to me this is the only flaw of the manga, but it's really important.
-finally the prize is now the control of the world and not more the only Japan. 

But anyway read also my previous post: I wasn't completely serious comparing L's death to that of another character of Naruto's manga that isn't the main character or Sasuke.

Anyway it wasn't my intention tranform this topic in a discussion about Death Note, so I'm sorry for the Off topic.


----------



## Jeefus (Nov 29, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> How can Naruto fight against the horrors of war when he's never had to face them?


 

having witnessed this on several occasions, I can assure you, even if your people are not dying... having someone try to kill you will really have your ass screwed nice and tight.

just as people make fun of the WWII movies where you see soldiers sticking their guns up over a wall and firing while not looking...when you are in that situation, you really do crazy stuff like that...

I'm sure Naruto has his worries and has witnessed enough, but he has the courage to put those feelings aside so he can deal with them later.

this just happens to come back to Kishi's writting.... and enough said on that... you've been around long enough to know how that topic goes


----------



## Hossaim (Nov 29, 2012)

Jeefus said:


> having witnessed this on several occasions, I can assure you, even if your people are not dying... having someone try to kill you will really have your ass screwed nice and tight.
> 
> just as people make fun of the WWII movies where you see soldiers sticking their guns up over a wall and firing while not looking...when you are in that situation, you really do crazy stuff like that...
> 
> I'm sure Naruto has his worries and has witnessed enough, but he has the courage to put those feelings aside so he can deal with them later.



The horror of war is the deaht and destruction. He's trying to kill them too, but nobody is dying. Naruto isn't showing courage, he's just going "OMFG IM DA PROHACY CHILD BELEIVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!" Like the fucking retarded ass terrible character he always is.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 29, 2012)

Jeefus said:


> having witnessed this on several occasions, I can assure you, even if your people are not dying... having someone try to kill you will really have your ass screwed nice and tight.
> 
> just as people make fun of the WWII movies where you see soldiers sticking their guns up over a wall and firing while not looking...when you are in that situation, you really do crazy stuff like that...
> 
> ...



Funny thing is, a lot of people in this thread are saying that this war is so frustrating and tedious because it's so unrealistic, while those defending the manga say that's a fiction geared towards kids so of course it's not going to be unrealistic.

Now you're defending it by saying it's realistic?

...


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Nov 29, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> The horror of war is the deaht and destruction. He's trying to kill them too, but nobody is dying. Naruto isn't showing courage, he's just going "OMFG IM DA PROHACY CHILD BELEIVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!" Like the fucking retarded ass terrible character he always is.



Kishimoto takes more of a philosophical approach as opposed to a violent one since this is a childrens story. The horror of war is the cycle of hatred, the whole an eye for an eye makes the world blind, and naruto & co are basically on a quest to break it.


----------



## Ernie (Nov 29, 2012)

Next chapters Gai, Bee and Sakura die. Kishi hero?!


----------



## Inferno (Nov 29, 2012)

St. Burke said:


> inb4 none of the main cast of one piece die in its finale, and noone complains.



The two major deaths in OP (WB and Ace) have more meaning and emotion than all of the deaths in Naruto together.


----------



## αce (Nov 29, 2012)

No ones asking for the main cast to die.

We're asking for someone to die so Naruto can experience something he always talks about but has never fucking faced.

Ever.

The good guys (well, the pirates) lost completely in the war arc. They got _demolished _and _Akainu_ ended up heading the navy when Sengoku quit. Yeah, I'd say Oda has 10x the balls that Kishimoto does.


----------



## Summers (Nov 29, 2012)

Inferno said:


> The two major deaths in OP (WB and Ace) have more meaning and emotion than all of the deaths in Naruto together.



Those were some good deaths, but still, those are characters we barely see compared to the main cast. Ace pop in every-once in a while and we just go to know WB. 

None of the big 3 kill of characters that close to Main character that we have know for decent amount of time. And they shouldn't, unless they are confident that we would give a crap. Oda killed ace and WB because the deaths served a purpose and worked. Killing of any of the rookies for example would mean very little to me. 

Hell with the way people talk about this subject, they would just be cheering rather than being sad for Naruto and the victim. the rest of the forum would just call it bullshit and a waste.


----------



## Missing_Nin (Nov 29, 2012)

naruto faced those emotions when the 3rd died and when jiraiya died.  people be talking about OP, but guess what only 2 people died too in that manga (non flashbacks scenes).  talking about balls, he couldnt even kill pell.


----------



## Rios (Nov 30, 2012)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> Kishimoto takes more of a philosophical approach as opposed to a violent one since this is a childrens story. The horror of war is the cycle of hatred, the whole an eye for an eye makes the world blind, and naruto & co are basically on a quest to break it.



This doesnt make sense. What "philosophical" and "childrens story" have in common?


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Nov 30, 2012)

Rios said:


> This doesnt make sense. What "philosophical" and "childrens story" have in common?



replace it with ideology or whatever you please. you get the idea bird brain.


----------



## Rios (Nov 30, 2012)

No I dont. Children are very impressionable, which means a vivid image or speech are more likely to affect them, not some deep thinking.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Nov 30, 2012)

it's simple really. person hurts you, you want to hurt them back, it's the natural course of things. Kishi believes that this chain however can be broken through means of understanding, that through relating people become kind to one another. Understanding is the key to peace.

I think you should take up your concerns with the boss; i'm just the messsenger


----------



## Rios (Nov 30, 2012)

Thats hardly philosophy though.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Nov 30, 2012)

Philosophy is pretty abstract sometimes, maybe you're having difficulty comprehending it?


----------



## Grendel (Nov 30, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> The horror of war is the deaht and destruction. He's trying to kill them too, but nobody is dying. Naruto isn't showing courage, he's just going "OMFG IM DA PROHACY CHILD BELEIVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!" Like the fucking retarded ass terrible character he always is.



I don't mean this disrespectfully but what about this manga  made you think Kishi was going to realistically portray the horrors of war or that that is even the message he is trying to get across?


----------



## Benzaiten (Nov 30, 2012)

You thought Bee was going to die? 

It was pretty obvious from the moment the ten tails was 'ressurected' that he wouldn't have to be sacrificed anymore. Maybe one of the Kages will die, who knows.

And Naruto HAS experienced death. Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Chiyo, Gaara, and even Haku and Zabuza to some extent. Or when his village was destroyed and more than half of the population died including Kakashi. He thought Hinata died that time as well. Let's not forget the kid was orphaned too.


----------



## Max Thunder (Nov 30, 2012)

Grendel said:


> I don't mean this disrespectfully but what about this manga  made you think Kishi was going to realistically portray the horrors of war or that that is even the message he is trying to get across?



Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it Kishi that said something about wanting to depict the horrors of war during some interview?


----------



## Escargon (Nov 30, 2012)

In the early Naruto when we saw the ninja world for the first time we got real shit scared. Over the top. I mean like YOU THOUGHT THAT THIS MANGA WOULD BE FOR CHILDREN?! WELL IN YOUR FACE THEN!"

Yeah bro then comes this war arc where noone except Kagelevel edos get globalled, Juubi is treated like a Zubat or some basic pokemon and the heroes getting unlimited chakra power levels.

And Naruto saying the same bullshit everytime someone tries pushing him down.

"I want to become the Hokage bitch!" 
"I want to become the Hokage bitch!"
"I want to become the Hokage bitch!"
"I want to become the Hokage bitch!"
"Uhhh.. irr.. irrele..what?"

Please die Naruto..


----------



## Benzaiten (Nov 30, 2012)

What I'm really surprised about is how you're still ranting about this when this has been a problem since long ago. It's not even about Bee dying because there have been plenty of deaths before, (Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Chiyo, Haku, Zabuza, Itachi, Asuma, Nagato, Konan, Danzo, and if you count flashbacks, Minato, Kushina, Shin, Hashirama, Tobirama, Madara, Rin, Yahiko, etc.) Tons of bullshit happened ages ago. Or are you telling me you've forgotten the time when half of Konoha was ressurected after Naruto had a talk with the villain?

I'm not saying you should tolerate it but what were you expecting? If you want something philosophical and realistic then you're clearly reading the wrong manga. It's been shit for a while now and it's not going to change anytime soon.


----------



## Rios (Nov 30, 2012)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> Philosophy is pretty abstract sometimes, maybe you're having difficulty comprehending it?



Or maybe you are having problems accepting that you used the wrong word? Otherwise the desire of a horse with an injured leg to keep going could be interpreted as philosophical too, jackass.


----------



## Opuni (Nov 30, 2012)

i agree with op on everything, in fact no one has written the main character's challenge better than oda. one word ; AKAINU, talk about when bad guys are so fucking strong they shatter your resolve, anyway that said this thread is getting old, this should be the last time but knowing nf.....


----------



## Ernie (Nov 30, 2012)

Totally agree with Benzaiten.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> Kishimoto takes more of a philosophical approach as opposed to a violent one since this is a childrens story. The horror of war is the cycle of hatred, the whole an eye for an eye makes the world blind, and naruto & co are basically on a quest to break it.





Let'sFightingLove said:


> replace it with ideology or whatever you please. you get the idea bird brain.



Philosophical = Ideological? Does not compute.



Let'sFightingLove said:


> it's simple really. person hurts you, you want to hurt them back, it's the natural course of things. Kishi believes that this chain however can be broken through means of understanding, that through relating people become kind to one another. Understanding is the key to peace.



There is absolutely nothing philosophical about that. 

Besides, how is that what Kishi is showing in this war?


----------



## ZE (Nov 30, 2012)

You should’ve made this thread when the bad guys started taking themselves out. In a real war, that doesn’t happen. 

Nagato was defeated by a fellow edo tensei. So in a sense, the bad guys defeated themselves here. Kabuto let himself be defeated.

Kabuto got pwned by Sasuke -who is more on the bad guys’ side than on the good side- and Itachi, Kabuto’s previous weapon. Since Itachi did most of the work, Kabuto defeated himself once again here. 

Edo Tensei – defeated by an Edo Tensei
Kabuto – Defeated by his own weapons

That’s actually worse than having Naruto with help defeat the Jyuubi and Madara here. At least Naruto would’ve to do most of the work. To defeat Nagato and Itachi he didn’t need to do anything. To end Edo Tensei, the good guys didn’t need to do anything.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

ZE said:


> You should’ve made this thread when the bad guys started taking themselves out. In a real war, that doesn’t happen.
> 
> Nagato was defeated by a fellow edo tensei. So in a sense, the bad guys defeated themselves here. Kabuto let himself be defeated.
> 
> ...



Itachi breaking free from ET should have been obvious the moment we saw him be rezzed. Itachi is a good guy who has never had the chance to play the part and Sasuke is half of one. Two good guys who are being manipulated are not bad guys. They are good guys being manipulated. The bad guys did not "take themselves out".

And considering the fact that Sasuke is Naruto's rival and Itachi is extremely crucial to the plot, there's really nothing wrong with them accomplishing anything in the war. At least the power levels matched, which is more than can be said about the current fight.

Anyway I knew it was inevitable that someone would bring up Itachi in a negative light eventually. 

The thread is not about him, so I am not going to talk about him anymore. Take your contentions to VMs.


----------



## Karyu Endan (Nov 30, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Besides, how is that what Kishi is showing in this war?



The Five Great Nations, countries that have hated each other so much that within... 50 years or so (assuming Hiruzen was in his late teens/early 20's when Tobirama passed the Hokage Torch to him in the 1st war) three world wars have taken place, have genuinely teamed up for the first time in history, due to a common enemy and a willingness to understand each other from the youngest generation, as seen when Onoki reflects on Naruto and Gaara in 562.

Furthermore, there have been several subplots resolved in this arc with this theme in mind. The Hyuga clan has become more constructive in its ideals. Sai/Shin, Bee/A, and Sasuke/Itachi all reconcile their brotherly love. Gaara makes peace with his father. Naruto and Kurama become partners, while the rest of the tailed beasts (except poor Shukaku...) restore their faith in humanity as a result of it.

So yeah. "Peace through understanding" is the main theme of this arc.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

Karyu Endan said:


> The Five Great Nations, countries that have hated each other so much that within... 50 years or so (assuming Hiruzen was in his late teens/early 20's when Tobirama passed the Hokage Torch to him in the 1st war) three world wars have taken place, have genuinely teamed up for the first time in history, due to a common enemy and a willingness to understand each other from the youngest generation, as seen when Onoki reflects on Naruto and Gaara in 562.



Okay, if anyone actually thought that shit made sense, I don't know what to say.

Some crazy dude in a mask crashed into a meeting, says "Lol guys! Guess what! I'm Madara, who died a long time ago but yea, I'm going to start a world war unless you give up this kid!"

And all the world leaders immediately get together and become one great Alliance. I felt like I was drinking kool aid when that happened.



> Furthermore, there have been several subplots resolved in this arc with this theme in mind. The Hyuga clan has become more constructive in its ideals. Sai/Shin, Bee/A, and Sasuke/Itachi all reconcile their brotherly love. Gaara makes peace with his father. Naruto and Kurama become partners, while the rest of the tailed beasts (except poor Shukaku...) restore their faith in humanity as a result of it.
> 
> So yeah. "Peace through understanding" is the main theme of this arc.



Yea, because I guess if the good guys all get along in the war, then none of them die.

That's essentially what this boils down to. It's ridiculous.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Nov 30, 2012)

Karyu Endan said:


> So yeah. "Peace through understanding" is the main theme of this arc.



it's the main theme of every arc, actually.



PikaCheeka said:


> Okay, if anyone actually thought that shit made sense, I don't know what to say.
> 
> Some crazy dude in a mask crashed into a meeting, says "Lol guys! Guess  what! I'm Madara, who died a long time ago but yea, I'm going to start a  world war unless you give up this kid!"
> 
> And all the world leaders immediately get together and become one great  Alliance. I felt like I was drinking kool aid when that happened



remember  why they came together. 'we've all been hurt by akatsuki, when we share  the same pain there can be no ill feelings toward each other' or  something to that effect.


----------



## Arthas (Nov 30, 2012)

I really wish I could give PikaCheeka more reps but it looks like I'll have to wait for now.



Let'sFightingLove said:


> remember  why they came together. 'we've all been hurt by akatsuki, when we share  the same pain there can be no ill feelings toward each other' or  something to that effect.



Which is partly what makes it so ridiculous. I am sorely tempted to start another thread about this but for now I will just say that Obito's actions during that kage summit marked him as a bonehead of unbelivable proportions.

However your not seeing the point we are trying to make.

The shinobi alliance came together all too easily and what's more without any significant input from the main character.

Instead of Konoha going "Oh, shit we can't take on Akatsuki's army by ourselves, we need allies" and Naruto meeting the kages and convincing them to join together against Madara/Tobi we get the one major significant hope against future wars because of a bone head play by a main villain. 

I'll repeat this for emphasis: *The VILLAIN had more to do with uniting the world then the HERO did. In fact the HERO did little to unite the world.*

Pure Personal Wish follows:- 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Personally I would have liked it if Naruto had managed to only really convince Mifune and Gaara with the Raikage agreeing only if he was made the leader while the Rock stayed neutral and the Mist + Small countries like Rain and Missing Nin of the world sided with Tobi. _Ninja versus Ninja_ *is better* then Ninja versus Plants and Zomibies.






Let'sFightingLove said:


> it's simple really. person hurts you,  you want to hurt them back, it's the natural course of things. Kishi  believes that this chain however can be broken through means of  understanding, that through relating people become kind to one another.  Understanding is the key to peace.




The above would have been relavent if the Shinobi alliance were fighting against humans. Naruto having to struggle against that hatred would have been interesting. Somehow I don't see the understanding thing or even the hatred thing with the destruction of plant people left and right....


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

Arthas said:


> *The shinobi alliance came together all too easily and what's more without any significant input from the main character.
> *
> Instead of Konoha going "Oh, shit we can't take on Akatsuki's army by ourselves, we need allies" and Naruto meeting the kages and convincing them to join together against Madara/Tobi we get the one major significant hope against future wars because of a bone head play by a main villain.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Ironically, Obito (and Madara indirectly) are the ones who brought the world together.

Now when the manga ends and Naruto becomes king of the world, he won't actually have had to do anything.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Nov 30, 2012)

but naruto will do something. He will understand sasuke, the culmination of hatred. The stage has been set, the parallels are in place. Naruto, being the main character is of course given the biggest challenge. what don't you  get?


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Nov 30, 2012)

I want Madara to take care of the alliance not Juubi nor Obito,

In less than one minute!!! 



Please Madara get serious at least for one fucking minute!!!


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> but naruto will do something. He will understand sasuke, the culmination of hatred. The stage has been set, the parallels are in place. Naruto, being the main character is of course given the biggest challenge. what don't you  get?



So guilting a jerk into being your slave is a bigger challenge than uniting the entire world against a common enemy?

You can't be serious.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Nov 30, 2012)

what are we arguing about again?


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> what are we arguing about again?



The absurdly unrealistic nature of this war. You were the one who brought up Sasuke, so I responded in turn.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Nov 30, 2012)

Oh ok. I agree then.


----------



## Suigetsu (Nov 30, 2012)

Named and old chars should die and make room for the next generation.


----------



## Octavian (Nov 30, 2012)

OP summed up the majority of my sentiments regarding this fight. i really wanted to see an all out brawl between Madara and BM naruto with some intervention by Sasuke with EMS mastered. instead, previous fodder like ino can now perform long range mind transfer on two of the most powerful shinobi of all time with rinnegan and EMS/ MS, if only for a moment. kishi's a coward...i bet none of the alliance will die either


----------



## ZE (Nov 30, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Itachi breaking free from ET should have been obvious the moment we saw him be rezzed. Itachi is a good guy who has never had the chance to play the part and Sasuke is half of one. Two good guys who are being manipulated are not bad guys. They are good guys being manipulated. The bad guys did not "take themselves out".
> 
> And considering the fact that Sasuke is Naruto's rival and Itachi is extremely crucial to the plot, there's really nothing wrong with them accomplishing anything in the war. At least the power levels matched, which is more than can be said about the current fight.
> 
> ...



So you think it?s ok for Itachi/Sasuke to defeat the second strongest edo, and end edo tensei while defeating one of the three antagonists of the war, yet it?s not ok for the main character to beat edo Madara and Kakashi to beat Obito, the other two antagonists? Why? Because Madara and Obito haven?t killed anyone yet? Well, so didn?t Kabuto when he got humiliated, and yet, practically no one in the forums thought Kishi was a coward back then. 

-The bijuus were good guys. That didn?t stop them from being part of Tobi?s strength. 
-Some of the jinchuurikis were also good guys? Once again, they were used and gave the heroes one hell of a hard time. 

Itachi was brought back by Kabuto as one of his weapons, like the jinchuurikis. That weapon took him out, and took his strongest edo tensei away from him while Naruto did nothing but get pwned. Just like Killerbee. No one in the alliance knew what happened when the edos disappeared. For them all it was like a big miracle. Even today they should be asking themselves why and how the edos just vanished. It was way too easy. If the heroes fail to beat any of the two other antagonists of this war right now, then all of their work would?ve been for nothing. 

The villains have been incompetent in this manga since forever. I know you're only feeling that now because your favorite character is the one being threatened now, but Kishi always treated the villains like this. There were some exceptions, but the norm always benefited the good guys.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

ZE said:


> So you think it?s ok for Itachi/Sasuke to defeat the second strongest edo, and end edo tensei while defeating one of the three antagonists of the war, *yet it?s not ok for the main character to beat edo Madara and Kakashi to beat Obito, the other two antagonists? Why?* Because Madara and Obito haven?t killed anyone yet? Well, so didn?t Kabuto when he got humiliated, and yet, practically no one in the forums thought Kishi was a coward back then.
> 
> *-The bijuus were good guys. That didn?t stop them from being part of Tobi?s strength.
> -Some of the jinchuurikis were also good guys? Once again, they were used and gave the heroes one hell of a hard time.
> ...



You're just going on some bizarre rant now that really has nothing to do with my OP. Where are you getting this?

But nice little "favorite character angsting" comment at the end there. It's always a good fallback, isn't it?


----------



## ZE (Nov 30, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> You're just going on some bizarre rant now that really has nothing to do with my OP. Where are you getting this?
> 
> But nice little "favorite character angsting" comment at the end there. It's always a good fallback, isn't it?



On one hand you excuse Kishi for what he did to Kabuto, one of the villains. 
On the other hand, you cannot forgive him for what he is about to do to Madara and Obito. 

Is it really that hard to understand that you wouldn’t be complaining as you are now if you didn’t like Madara? 


It seems too obvious to me.


----------



## Deleted member 206107 (Nov 30, 2012)

The awkward moment when Tobito is more an hero than Naruto. Ha.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

ZE said:


> On one hand you excuse Kishi for what he did to Kabuto, one of the villains.
> On the other hand, you cannot forgive him for what he is about to do to Madara and Obito.
> 
> Is it really that hard to understand that you wouldn’t be complaining as you are now if you didn’t like Madara?
> ...



What are you even talking about? This has nothing to do with the thread.

If you want to bring Kabuto up for the 90th time, well Madara not doing anything also shows that Kabuto did nothing. There. I explained it for you. Kabuto's purpose was to bring Madara back. He served it. The actions are intertwined.

Kabuto was against two of the most powerful characters in the series, and even though he lost, there was some genuine tension in the fight because there was definitely some going back-and-forth about what would happen to Itachi/if Kabuto would defeat him. 

And this thread is about Kishi's sheer inability to write a realistic war because he doesn't have the balls to kill anyone or even create any real tension anymore. This sentiment was obviously creeping in but it's gone far beyond repair now. We have a team-up of the JUUBI, MADARA, and OBITO, and they have thus far done jack shit together. 

Here we have the most powerful being in the world and the most powerful human in the world, with his super-haxxed student, who will very likely do nothing because Naruto's big orgy of 40,000 best friends just arrived. 

I don't know how much simpler I can make this. If you don't understand, that's your problem, but don't call back on the whole favorite-character-camps shit. It doesn't work.


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## ZE (Nov 30, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> What are you even talking about? This has nothing to do with the thread.
> 
> If you want to bring Kabuto up for the 90th time, well Madara not doing anything also shows that Kabuto did nothing. There. I explained it for you. Kabuto's purpose was to bring Madara back. He served it. The actions are intertwined.
> 
> ...



You’re making this a little too obvious. You thought there was tension during the Kabuto vs the uchiha bros fight... So according to you, Kishi’s writing wasn’t that bad in that particular moment, with that fight being the only exception. What if I tell you that I didn’t feel that the Kabuto fight had any tension at all and that I knew all along the fight was gonna end with Itachi cancelling himself out along with the other edos? 

What if I tell you no other moment in the manga showed Kishi’s cowardice as much as not having Kabuto have Itachi fight Sasuke by taking control of Itachi again?  

The war has been going for a long time and this is the first time you’ve made a thread calling Kishi a coward, isn’t that right? Why wasn’t this thread made sooner, then? I rest my case. It's not like this is the first time Kishi does this.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Nov 30, 2012)

ZE said:


> You’re making this a little too obvious. You thought there was tension during the Kabuto vs the uchiha bros fight.*.. So according to you, Kishi’s writing wasn’t that bad in that particular moment, with that fight being the only exception. What if I tell you that I didn’t feel that the Kabuto fight had any tension at all *and that I knew all along the fight was gonna end with Itachi cancelling himself out along with the other edos?



I explained this earlier, though you probably didn't read that post.

There was a lot of banter during that fight about whether or not Itachi would either be controlled again or just be destroyed. A _lot_, from all parts of the fandom. Sure, maybe some of you thought it was a predictable fight, but that wasn't the case for many readers. 

Now and in most of the rest of the war? Predictable.



> What if I tell you no other moment in the manga showed Kishi’s cowardice as much as not having Kabuto have Itachi fight Sasuke by taking control of Itachi again?



Then good for you?



> The war has been going for a long time and this is the first time you’ve made a thread calling Kishi a coward, isn’t that right? Why wasn’t this thread made sooner, then? I rest my case. It's not like this is the first time Kishi does this.



First time I made a thread =/= first time I have posted and/or bitched about it, which I have been doing for a long time. You probably just haven't paid attention.

I also explained in detail why I made the thread this week in particular in the OP. There was a perfect chance to kill and/or capture KB there and he wasn't even really injured from what happened. Then 40,000 fodder show up to protect Naruto and need we go further?

I'm sick of repeating myself though. If you cared that much, you'd actually read the things I've said. You're just unnecessarily being recalcitrant.


----------



## 2FeelthePain4 (Nov 30, 2012)

The manga went downhill ever since that 'Child of Prophecy' crap. I have no reason to feel connected to the main character, Naruto, after he ended up becoming the 'second coming of Jesus'.

I like realistic fictional ninja-esque fights that involves punches, unbelievable physical damage, utilizing complicated handseals to unleash awesome jutsus, showing the balloon of thought in each character as he or she plans his or her next moves, and the emotional and meaningful flashbacks that gives us a window into a character's life and his or her point of view and perspectives on an issue or the fight going on. Oh and I completely liked it when Kyuubi was a feral and monstrous being, his conversion was predictable, but it happened all too fast.

Bring back the days of Sasori, Hidan, Orochimaru, Kazuku, The Sound *Five*, and the quality of fights and storytelling that came with them.

I didn't enjoy the manga as much as I used to after Pain's Invasion of Konoha. The manga started going downhill before that but it wasn't as significant until around that time period involving Jiraya's death.


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## Hossaim (Nov 30, 2012)

Pika I keep reping all your posts but nothing is happening.

Wat do?


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## stab-o-tron5000 (Dec 1, 2012)

While I don't think anyone wants Naruto to become a Berserkish bloodbath of horrors. It does kind of take any and all the tension out of the story when your completely aware that there's absolutely no consequences whatsoever. Which was pretty much the precedent established during Pains invasion of Konaha, wherein everyone that died during the battle was magically brought back to life.

Losing characters in that conflict, especially fan favorites like Kakashi and Hinata, would have at least established the basis of some kind of consequence. Leading to a certain degree or tension in the main conflict of the war. If Kishi actually had the balls to off two fan favorites, then who the hell else is on the chopping block? But lo and behold, not only has no one actually died in this entire war (we keep hearing about casualties, but haven't seen a single one), but because of that, and because of the Pain invasion, I know no one will.

With these fucking prequ... I mean Naruto comics, I'm always forced to go back to storytelling 101. If I'm already well aware ahead of time that there's absolutely no sort of consequence's then there's no tension and no reason for me to care. This story is so flat and dry and uninteresting at this point that the only reason I'm sticking with it is because I feel some kind of stupid obligation to see it finished. I know it's gonna suck, but I still wannna see how it ends.


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## Grendel (Dec 1, 2012)

Max Thunder said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it Kishi that said something about wanting to depict the horrors of war during some interview?



I'd have to see the link to the interview because I remember his last interview discussed here and remember nothing about that...


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## WhiteWolf (Dec 1, 2012)

I demand a sacrifice !


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## Humite Juubi (Dec 1, 2012)

WhiteWolf said:


> I demand a sacrifice !



There already was a sacrifice: the entertainment of many readers for profane conclusions.


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## WhiteWolf (Dec 1, 2012)

Humite Juubi said:


> There already was a sacrifice: the entertainment of many readers for profane conclusions.


A rookie dying is what i demand!

Sacrifice be made!


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 2, 2012)

Naruto said:


> Because Bleach and One Piece are so much better, right? Hell, even the predecessors of the current holy shonen trinity fail miserably at this. Look at Dragon Ball.
> 
> Why are you judging the manga like it's fucking Shakespeare instead of looking at the competition instead?
> 
> Not closing the thread because in my mind people are allowed to bitch and whine to their heart's content, but jesus do I think this is ridiculous.



Honestly, this has little to do with Good Guys getting killed and more to do with the actual plot.. I barely felt any real threat from the War(from both sides).. in the end only Edo's got taken down mercilessly.. comparing it to Marineford is laughable since we actually saw named top tiers get their asses handed to them, saw hellish inhumane tactics by both sides, and real drama and suspense for human lives.. This depicted how truly ruthless a war can be.. 

Worse is some character's actions which were severely out of character.. its fucking laughable how Deidara was under-utilized, Deidara possessed the best power to wipe out a big chunk of the alliance, yet he barely made it past the first chapter of the war.. Plot protection is just too strong in this manga, it hinders good story telling and character development to the point where you just get sick of reading.. really I am actually not considering Madara top tier because of the way he uses his Jutsu, no battle wits whatsoever, he deserves a 0.5 in Intelligence in the next DB stats..


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## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 3, 2012)

They're by far less than 40k fodders; Zetsu Incident(Transformation Ability) and Madara's Meteor.

Important Characters will most likely die in the current confrontation (Obito, Madara & Jūbi vs Alliance) and Obito will use Gedō: Rinne Tensei no Jutsu to bring them back


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## Deleted member 206107 (Dec 3, 2012)

Mickie said:


> They're by far less than 40k fodders; Zetsu Incident(Transformation Ability) and Madara's Meteor.
> 
> Important Characters will most likely die in the current confrontation (Obito, Madara & Jūbi vs Alliance) and *Obito will use Gedō: Rinne Tensei no Jutsu to bring them back*






OH GAWD PLEASE NO .


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 3, 2012)

Pika your extremely inpatient lol in b4 the rookies start to die.


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## Turrin (Dec 3, 2012)

Maybe Kishimoto will have high death tolls now that the alliance has arrived, but I don't hold out hope.


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## αce (Dec 3, 2012)

It's too late now to kill anyone. It'll just seem desperate. This is like Rowling killing off random characters near the end. There's no further development for them anyways.


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## Absolute Zero. (Dec 3, 2012)

Khris said:


> Honestly, this has little to do with Good Guys getting killed and more to do with the actual plot.. I barely felt any real threat from the War(from both sides).. in the end only Edo's got taken down mercilessly.. comparing it to Marineford is laughable since we actually saw named top tiers get their asses handed to them, saw hellish inhumane tactics by both sides, and real drama and suspense for human lives.. This depicted how truly ruthless a war can be..



This. Honestly, if this was P1 I would've expected much more from Kishi. A *real* war for one, not one fought by zombies and clones with the protagonist, after 3 years of maturing possibly never having the opportunity to witness true bloodshed and agony in what a war should be, and instead treating it all like a game where he has to beat everyone and everything himself. I've honestly felt no threat level at all from the ninja alliance's opposition at any point during the war so far. Nearly every problem that arose ended within a single chapter with minimal drama and as if their was never any danger at all. Comparing it to Marineford is absolutely ludicrous in that not only were the 'good guys' crushed terribly, but everyone was actually traumatized afterwards for their weakness, and were forced to run away after their immense losses. Even before reaching the climax of the arc, there was definitely a sense of threat from the opposing side (Squardo stab), and by far no guaranteed victory in *every* scenario. 

Even at this point, I have no doubt in my mind that there will be *zero *casualty in this war. By this, I mean no named character will receive any sign of trauma, emotionally or physically that can't be brushed off within a handful of chapters, and no one will die without a lolfix courtesy of Obito's Rinnei Tensei.


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## Seto Kaiba (Dec 3, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> It's too late now to kill anyone. It'll just seem desperate. This is like Rowling killing off random characters near the end. There's no further development for them anyways.



I bet the deaths will be offscreen no-names.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 3, 2012)

^ of course they will. We'll lose another 30,000 fodder or something.



Bkprince33 said:


> Pika your extremely inpatient lol in b4 the rookies start to die.



Remind me again. _How_ long has this war been going on, exactly?


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 4, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ^ of course they will. We'll lose another 30,000 fodder or something.
> 
> 
> 
> Remind me again. _How_ long has this war been going on, exactly?




Your kinda right


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## Kusa (Dec 4, 2012)

Kishi doesn't take any risks anymore,he isn't aware that he is killing his own manga with that.He should atleast make one strong shinobi get hurt  very badly or disabled for their whole life.I am sure he won't even do that.


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## Blur (Dec 4, 2012)

Not really surprised anymore. I just want him to finish with this fight.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 4, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> It's too late now to kill anyone. It'll just seem desperate. This is like Rowling killing off random characters near the end. There's no further development for them anyways.





Turrin said:


> Maybe Kishimoto will have high death tolls now that the alliance has arrived, but I don't hold out hope.



you know offing people randomly ain't a good idea either(look at bleach this year)..

Jiraiya and Itachi had the best deaths because they carried real emotion and plot development.. Zabuza and Deidara's deaths were done beautifully as well.. but edo tensie fucked that up.. again, its all about the story telling.. Kishi could have had nobody killed and still wrote a damn good war.. i honestly felt the manga getting crappier the moment the Bijuu's were rectoned.. and the Jyuubi was introduced.. the staggering amount of plotholes didn't help either


----------



## Xin (Dec 4, 2012)

As long as Granpa Genin doesn't die, it's ok for me.


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## Max Thunder (Dec 4, 2012)

I keep seeing people stand up for Kishi and saying ''I'm sure someone important will die in this war.''

What if they don't? Will you finally concede to what we have been saying all along?


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## Ernie (Dec 4, 2012)

Their will some popular characters die soon, impatient users from KL. 

Kishi dared some years ago to let Jiriaya die, he even got some "death threaths" after that.


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## zenieth (Dec 4, 2012)

I hate this war

I hate this Alliance

I hate these villains

I *motherfucking* hate the Bijuu

Juubi can go fuck off somewhere

And that moon?

That moon can go eat a dick.


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## principito (Dec 4, 2012)

What Pika is asking is like having the Bad Witch butchering 3 or 4 of the 7 dwarfs in snow white.

this is a fucking manga for kids man

There are some darker stories out there... some even have sex if u r that kind of person


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## zenieth (Dec 4, 2012)

Fist of the North Star was a manga for Kids.

Your point?

Not counting that originally most fairy tales weren't children's stories.


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## Ernie (Dec 4, 2012)

zenieth said:


> I hate this war
> 
> I hate this Alliance
> 
> ...



Soon, when Obito is TNJ'ed by Naruto, you will be like this person I guess. You will burn down your own house and be totally mental.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_mE_-BV7mg[/YOUTUBE]

Btw, I love this arc. It is getting better and better.


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## Rios (Dec 4, 2012)

We all agreed that Obito is going to get TNJed just like we all agreed that Tobi = Obito is the most obvious and lazy solution to the mystery.

Every rational person knows this.


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## Ernie (Dec 4, 2012)

The mystery around Tobi was SO BIG and so WORLDWIDE that every "man behind the mask' would be considered as a fail by the most of here.


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## DonutKid (Dec 4, 2012)

this thread is still going? 


Rios said:


> We all agreed that Obito is going to get TNJed just like we all agreed that Tobi = Obito is the most obvious and lazy solution to the mystery.
> 
> Every rational person knows this.



actually tobi=obito is one of the most tedious solution considering the amount of explanation actually needed.


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## Rios (Dec 4, 2012)

Not really, the explanation we got was the bare minimum and Kishimoto did go the easy route of making Kabuto "enhance" Madara so he could be young instead of 100 years old, etc.

I'd go as far as to say any, _any_ other character but Obito would have been a breath of fresh air because then they'd be old with way more time to develop their skills and motives.


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## Ernie (Dec 4, 2012)

I am not saying I was very pleased with Tobi being Obito cause I loved Tobi as an character. But I also think some people are over-reacting about it. Just my 2 cents.


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## Charlotte (Dec 4, 2012)

... AND STILL PEOPLE BELIEVE SASUKE WILL DIE?

When Kishi can't kill some other characters


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## Ernie (Dec 4, 2012)

He killed Jiraiya for the 14578th time. Jiraiya's death was more worthy then 15 other so called "popular characters"...

And Sasuke will die, will not die, I dunno. If he doesn't die, what then? You think, after the deaths he created, everyone will be like "we forgive you, you sweet Uchiha", don't think so.


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## Max Thunder (Dec 4, 2012)

The reason I'm sure Kishi won't kill off  Sasuke is this:

He's the last living Uchiha.

Edit: Well apart from Obito but... still.


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## Ernie (Dec 4, 2012)

Max Thunder said:


> The reason I'm sure Kishi won't kill off  Sasuke is this:
> 
> He's the last living Uchiha.



No one cares about the demn Uchiha.


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## Max Thunder (Dec 4, 2012)

NarutoShippudenBelgium said:


> No one cares about the demn Uchiha.



I know right?...


----------



## DonutKid (Dec 4, 2012)

Rios said:


> Not really, the explanation we got was the bare minimum.
> 
> I'd go as far as to say any, _any_ other character but Obito would have been a breath of fresh air because then they'd be old with way more time to develop their skills and motives.



note that i said explanation needed, not kishi's explanation. i would say that most character(that is possible), or some totally random guy would be easier. because there won't be much of timeline problems and contradictory elements. for tobi=obito to make sense, it requires alot of time and effort to plan and develop, as well as good writing abilities.


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## Fear (Dec 4, 2012)

Not a coward, but a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


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## Ernie (Dec 4, 2012)

Fear said:


> Not a coward, but a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).



Tell me about your issues you have deep inside you...


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## Absolute Zero. (Dec 4, 2012)

NarutoShippudenBelgium said:


> No one cares about the demn Uchiha.



Sure, no one except Kishimoto. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that no character outside of the Uchiha, except those with enough plot relevance that they have to be *forced *in to keep from looking like terrible writing (Kakashi and Bee), can even be given an ounce of panel-time at this point.

Also, Jiraiya's death was great writing. It brought plot progression and character development for Naruto, but how exactly does this justify anything? How does this excuse him writing the current arc the way it is? For god's sake, this is a war; I've felt absolutely *zero* threat level from the opposition up until the climax, and even now only a minimal amount. In fact, it strikes me as more of a kiddy game in which Naruto's trying to beat everyone to get the high score than an actual fight to the death.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 4, 2012)

principito said:


> What Pika is asking is like having the Bad Witch butchering 3 or 4 of the 7 dwarfs in snow white.
> 
> this is a fucking manga for kids man
> 
> There are some darker stories out there... some even have sex if u r that kind of person



Comparing shounen manga to the Grimms' fairy tales. Ooooo this could go badly. You don't want to go there, bro. You clearly never read any.



Rios said:


> Not really, the explanation we got was the bare minimum and Kishimoto did go the easy route of making Kabuto "enhance" Madara so he could be young instead of 100 years old, etc.
> 
> I'd go as far as to say any, _any_ other character but Obito would have been a breath of fresh air because then they'd be old with way more time to develop their skills and motives.



This. So much of this.

Kishi focused 80% of Obito's flashback on Rin's death. Then he skipped through all of the questions that really needed answering in like 5 pages (one of which was all black) with no explanation. 

Not so sure if that's so much cowardice as it is laziness, but it's pathetic either way.

Then again, even with Obito, you have to admit that the bad guys all get significantly more development and are more emotionally and mentally rounded than nearly all of the good guys. Why? Oh yea, because bad shit happened to them. Obito's past may be idiotic but he probably has as much character growth and thought put into him than all of the rookies and teachers barring Naruto/Sasuke combined.


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## xShotDeadGorgeous (Dec 4, 2012)

azn7136 said:


> Inb4 Juubi destroys the Shinobi Alliance.



This complaint is so true .-.

I have to say that I do think somebody's gonna die though . hopefully not fodder


----------



## Lady Hinata (Dec 4, 2012)

Watch him pull a 
J.K Rowling and kill off a million characters
in the final chapters.

​


----------



## Grendel (Dec 4, 2012)

DonutKid said:


> note that i said explanation needed, not kishi's explanation. i would say that most character(that is possible), or some totally random guy would be easier. because there won't be much of timeline problems and contradictory elements. for tobi=obito to make sense, it requires alot of time and effort to plan and develop, as well as good writing abilities.



Or a reader's understanding that misdirection is used quite frequently in works of fiction...

Now not liking his motivation or the reasoning is another story...


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## Seraphiel (Dec 4, 2012)

principito said:


> What Pika is asking is like having the Bad Witch butchering 3 or 4 of the 7 dwarfs in snow white.
> 
> this is a fucking manga for kids man
> 
> There are some darker stories out there... some even have sex if u r that kind of person



JJBA all the way up to Steel Ball Run was a shonen and had plenty of seinen type violence so your point is worthless.


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## Grendel (Dec 4, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> JJBA all the way up to Steel Ball Run was a shonen and had plenty of seinen type violence so your point is worthless.



Tbh so is comparing it to more violent shonen since 600 chapters in the tone for this particular manga is pretty well established...


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 4, 2012)

Grendel said:


> Tbh so is comparing it to more violent shonen since 600 chapters in the tone for this particular manga is pretty well established...



This manga started off as a lot more violent than it is now. 

Madara is pretty much the only violent thing left in this manga, and even then, Kishimoto has off-paneled most of the nasty things he's done.


----------



## Deleted member 206107 (Dec 4, 2012)

How da fuck is Naruto for children tho?


----------



## Grendel (Dec 4, 2012)

^it's a Shonen manga which is aimed at a younger demographic...



PikaCheeka said:


> This manga started off as a lot more violent than it is now.
> 
> Madara is pretty much the only violent thing left in this manga, and even then, Kishimoto has off-paneled most of the nasty things he's done.



True it was overall more violent but i would argue that the most violent and bloody chapter only happened recently...

I guess i am more talking about death as the death toll was almost non existant in part 1 as well...


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 5, 2012)

> you know offing people randomly ain't a good idea either(look at bleach this year)..
> 
> Jiraiya and Itachi had the best deaths because they carried real emotion and plot development.. Zabuza and Deidara's deaths were done beautifully as well.. but edo tensie fucked that up.. again, its all about the story telling.. Kishi could have had nobody killed and still wrote a damn good war



I'm tired of seeing this argument.

if you're an author and u write a story about ninjas (who's primary functions are to kill--see Haku's "ninjas are meant to be emotionless tools/soldiers speech) and u say you're going to have a WAR ARC with thousands of badass elite ninja--

--You can't always wait for the picture perfect "moment" to kill a character (even if it's just one). These theatrical deaths with perfect buildup/drama/parting speeches don't always occur in real wars. given the context, heads should be flying left-and-right. yet we haven't seen one named good guy seriously injured; let alone killed


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 5, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> I'm tired of seeing this argument.
> 
> if you're an author and u write a story about ninjas (who's primary functions are to kill--see Haku's "ninjas are meant to be emotionless tools/soldiers speech) and u say you're going to have a WAR ARC with thousands of badass elite ninja--
> 
> --*You can't always wait for the picture perfect "moment" to kill a character (even if it's just one). These theatrical deaths with perfect buildup/drama/parting speeches don't always occur in real wars. given the context, heads should be flying left-and-right. yet we haven't seen one named good guy seriously injured; let alone killed*



lol no.. these picture perfect deaths are what drives the plot and the story.. if you want random emotionless killing go play God of War or Splatterhouse or some thing.. 

its also weird seeing you say that when you have a Zoro avatar..


----------



## Cygnus45 (Dec 5, 2012)

u don't get it. given the context of thousands of elite ninja going at it, we haven't had one serious injury or death for the good guys. i'm not foolish enough to expect god of war level massacres, just supporting the argument that this "war" is a joke, especially since Kishi HAS killed characters before and wars with actual deaths/tension/suspense due to grave injuries HAVE been done in plenty of other manga (mainstream manga included)


----------



## Bontakun (Dec 5, 2012)

This is not about blood on screen. I agree with OP that Kishi Sensei is a coward. But not because no one died in the war but because of his unrealistic depiction of death in general. He only lets the old veteran guys like 3rd and J-man who conveniently want to give up their lives to save the village die.

Something I posted earlier:


Bontakun said:


> I want to _see one of the KN12 die_, really die, not to be resurrected shortly after, while fighting alongside Naruto, and I want Naruto to be able to take it _without going berserk_. He is not qualified to be Hokage if he does not go through this.



He has had no big shocking death before his eyes that he was unable to prevent. Thus he enters battle with Obito without truly understanding Obito's pain and shouts inane things like "I won't let my comrades die."

Itachi told him to lean on his friends. But if you rely on your friends in combat, some of those friends will inevitably die. He will necessarily be worse than trash, like Obito is saying. Will he realize that being trash is necessary to being a ninja? Or will he become the world's most naive Hokage, to eventually become corrupted when his idealism is shattered?



Lady Hinata said:


> Watch him pull a
> J.K Rowling and kill off a million characters
> in the final chapters.
> 
> ​



I respect JK Rowling for being realistic about collateral damage during battle. Even in the small battle in the warehouse of mysterious artifacts (excuse my memory of proper names) where only a handful fought another handful, Sirius Black, Harry's father figure, died. Ofcourse this pissed everybody off include some female friends of mine, but I prefer this far more to plot shield. This eventually allowed him to become the Master of Death during the climatic battle. 

Personally, I was even more pissed off when one of the Weasley twins died. Fuuuck... anything but them. Anyway it seems like she had a dartboard of all characters involved in battle, fodder and non-fodder, and randomly killed the ones the darts landed on. That's realism for you. And one of the good things about her writing. Talk about being the Master of Death.

Kishimoto doesn't do this. His plot shield gets in the way of true art. Art is a bang! Mmm!


----------



## Paranoid Android (Dec 5, 2012)

i think the backlash from when he killed jiraiya made him scared to kill anyone ever again.


----------



## Arthas (Dec 5, 2012)

Bontakun said:


> He has had no big shocking death before his eyes that he was unable to prevent. Thus he enters battle with Obito without truly understanding Obito's pain and shouts inane things like "I won't let my comrades die."
> 
> Itachi told him to lean on his friends. But if you rely on your friends in combat, some of those friends will inevitably die. He will necessarily be worse than trash, like Obito is saying. Will he realize that being trash is necessary to being a ninja? *Or will he become the world's most naive Hokage, to eventually become corrupted when his idealism is shattered?*



Nah, Kishi will make him Hokage after winning a 'war' without any sense of loss and then have him be the greatested Hokage ever as all the challanges will be defeated with not just simple answers but the annoyingly simple and repitive answers of "I am Hokage..."

Seriously  I mentioned this before, the reason why I have trouble thinking of Naruto as true hero is because whenever there is a (moral/philosophical) challange facing him, Kishi wimps out and lets him off the hook instead of facing the consequences of those virtuous decisions.


----------



## Jαmes (Dec 5, 2012)

i do hope kishi wakes up and wipes out half the alliance after one juubi roar, to include dozens of supporting characters and some main ones. 

well i can hope


----------



## warp drive (Dec 5, 2012)

A cheesy manga is a lame manga. I am also very frustrated by Kishimoto's latest fairy-tale, rainbow performance. 
Obito is slowly being converted by Naruto's moan-jutsu.
Madara... is a troll
All the Kages are still breathing 
Kakashi, bee, and all the fucken rookies are alive

DaFuq!


----------



## Grendel (Dec 6, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> u don't get it. given the context of thousands of elite ninja going at it, we haven't had one serious injury or death for the good guys. i'm not foolish enough to expect god of war level massacres, just supporting the argument that this "war" is a joke, especially since Kishi HAS killed characters before and wars with actual deaths/tension/suspense due to grave injuries HAVE been done in plenty of other manga (mainstream manga included)



There isn't going to be one named character die that doesn't have build-up attached to it in this plot driven story...just because we are in a war arc doesn't mean stuff like that should change as the story isn't one about the tragedies of war...

And about injury there have been 40k shinobi killed and the kage are near death last we saw them...you want people to die without build-up you just gotta live with it being fodder...


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 6, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> u don't get it. given the context of thousands of elite ninja going at it, we haven't had one serious injury or death for the good guys. i'm not foolish enough to expect god of war level massacres, just supporting the argument that this "war" is a joke, especially since Kishi HAS killed characters before and wars with actual deaths/tension/suspense due to grave injuries HAVE been done in plenty of other manga (mainstream manga included)



i get it dude.. but killing random named characters with no plot during this war would have been an equally bad idea..


----------



## PikaCheeka (Dec 6, 2012)

Arthas said:


> Nah, Kishi will make him Hokage after winning a 'war' without any sense of loss and then have him be the greatested Hokage ever as all the challanges will be defeated with not just simple answers but the annoyingly simple and repitive answers of "I am Hokage..."
> 
> Seriously  I mentioned this before, the reason why I have trouble thinking of Naruto as true hero is because whenever there is a (moral/philosophical) challange facing him, Kishi wimps out and lets him off the hook instead of facing the consequences of those virtuous decisions.



Yes, exactly. Not only does Naruto manage to trump all with idiotic statements and little work, but he never has to face anything really difficult. Naruto begging everyone to not kill Sasuke, even though it was believed that he had murdered KB, was suddenly all forgiven because KB proved to be alive. Granted, it wouldn't have made sense for him to die there, but that's really only one example of such an awkward scenario. Another is Naruto's complete (and juvenile) forgiveness of Nagato, which works out great because Nagato revived all the dead, but was absurdly unrealistic and essentially put the manga on its terrible, downward path. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with forgiveness, because of course there isn't, but forgiving a crime does not equate undoing it. 

Naruto says and does stupid, ignorant things, and nothing bad ever comes of any of it.

I understand that this is not a masterpiece and obviously the shounen hero is not the tragic hero, but some depth would be nice, instead of this increasingly simplistic plot we're getting. 



Khris said:


> i get it dude.. but killing random named characters with no plot during this war would have been an equally bad idea..



If Tsunade dies that would count, but Kishi daring to do that is questionable.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 6, 2012)

problem is that Tsuande already had a near-death experience, so it would lose impact.. its like killing gaara a second time..


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 6, 2012)

Khris said:


> problem is that Tsuande already had a near-death experience, so it would lose impact.. its like killing gaara a second time..



"Killing" characters and saving them through a miracle, only to kill them for real later, isn't exactly uncommon.

If anything, it has greater impact, because so many readers like you just write it off as impossible.


*Spoiler*: _Gundam 00 spoiler_ 



 Neil was nearly killed towards the end of season 1, but he managed to survive with a few serious injuries through sheer luck (though the way the episode was written, people thought he had died initially). Two episodes after his near-death experience, he did die for real, and it was fantastically written. It caught nearly everyone by surprise because we all thought "Oh he already had his little problem", and because of that, it hit the fandom a lot harder. The emotional impact was significant, and all the more so because it was so unexpected. 

Then again, his death was also just written so damn well.




If Tsunade survives this, then Kishimoto is one of the most cowardly authors out there. She should have died _during_ the battle given her injuries and the extremes of the jutsu she used, and now she's ripped in half after all of that.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 6, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> "Killing" characters and saving them through a miracle, only to kill them for real later, isn't exactly uncommon.
> 
> If anything, it has greater impact, because so many readers like you just write it off as impossible.
> 
> ...



even if it does surprise me.. i'll probably just be surprised for 10 seconds and get on with my day.. 

because like someone said, its also too late in the story for shit like that.. when's the last time someone actually mattered to the story died? Jiraiya? 
Itachi even came back..

Kishi wrote himself into a corner by focusing on 2-3 characters and ignoring the rest, so right now when Tsunade or one of the rookies die it will still feel underwhelming.. plot-wise.. 

on a side note: Sasuke killing Sai after Sai became "good" would have been awesome


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## Lady Hinata (Dec 6, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _Beware: Rant_ 



I'm sorry but I agree: This so called war blows.
They've been pulling a Twilight standing there and talking.  
It's really lame. 

And boy oh boy do I _hate_ the "it's a kid's novel" argument.

*HARRY POTTER*.
Did many characters not get the big axe at the end?

Fact is, J.k Rowling understood just fine that if you're going to bring
such a big thing like _war_ into a so-called "kids' novel" you should at _least_ make it clear it's not going to always be sunshine and rainbows.

I expected Naruto to do this because even though it's "aimed" primarily at kids, just like Harry Potter it showed me that it can be more than that, even if at the end there is happiness, it wasn't without great loss. 

_Just_ because something is primarily aimed for kids, _doesn't_ mean it should be critiqued less. Fact is, Naruto _still_ has enough mature content that aims at those higher than ten for it to be up for debate on whether or not it's going well. It had no problems referring to big issues such as death, grave-robbing, murder, sexual innuendo's, baby killing, etc. 

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Kishi knows if his audience started reading while kids, that they would you know, _grow up_. His work has kind of been melding with the whole "growing up" while still maintaining some of it's childlike charm. I mean how long has this show been going on for? 

Surely a writer wouldn't think (with the popularity of the show) that only kids have been watching it? Plus, his ideas have far too mature ideas for me to take it as merely a kids book. It's pulled me in and has shown to be more than that so I won't take the excuse of it being for kids. ​​


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 6, 2012)

Khris said:


> even if it does surprise me.. i'll probably just be surprised for 10 seconds and get on with my day..
> 
> because like someone said, its also too late in the story for shit like that.. when's the last time someone actually mattered to the story died? Jiraiya?
> Itachi even came back..
> ...



Of course it will be underwhelming, but it will at least have a slight impact on the characters, and add a little tension to the war.

If even one character dies, it lends uncertainty to other serious injuries. If Tsunade actually dies from her injuries, then next time someone is seriously wounded, or is about to die, we won't go "Yawn. Yea he'll be saved next chapter."


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## Missing_Nin (Dec 14, 2012)

happy now?


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## Agony (Dec 14, 2012)

Missing_Nin said:


> happy now?


actually the more the better.


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## Amrun (Dec 14, 2012)

That's why I quit really reading the manga shortly into the war.  I mean, I read every once in awhile, but I mostly just look over my boyfriend's shoulder every week.

It's so bad.  So fucking bad.


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## Squifurgie (Dec 14, 2012)

Perhaps Kishimoto is lulling us into a false sense of security as far as character's surviving goes.

Then all of a sudden BAM! he kills off a pile of characters without mercy.

That would go a long way to make the war seem realistic, because that's how it really goes in real life. One second your comrade is there, grenade goes off, he's dead. No goodbye, no nothing . . . just dead.

I doubt he will do this but t would be a gutsy move


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## Ezekial (Dec 14, 2012)

Did Kishi read this thread?


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## Tragic Nous (Dec 14, 2012)

In retaliation of Pika’s thread, Kishmoto has purposely killed all the inhabitants of HQ.

And in occurrence, Sakura is next. ​


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 14, 2012)

Kishi doesn't kill off major people, how surprising  Not really


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## Squifurgie (Dec 15, 2012)

Tragic Nous said:


> In retaliation of Pika?s thread, Kishmoto has purposely killed all the inhabitants of HQ.
> 
> And in occurrence, Sakura is next. ​



I do not think Sakura will die, but I do think she will suffer life threatening injuries, Rock Lee needs to protect her "with his life"


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## emili (Dec 15, 2012)

Well, all the used-to-be good guys "lost hope" and turn evil 
And then they have to be TnJ'd by the so-called-saint-never-dying good guy.
The so-called-saint-never-dying good guy doesn't even have any lose on his side. except for his daddy-like pervy sage. *sniffs And the Sauce

I want Tsunade dead


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## Shinryu (Dec 16, 2012)

now fodder alliance needs to be juubi's next nuke target practice


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## godsangel13 (Dec 16, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> ....who does not understand that when writing a fictional war, good guys should have problems and good guys should die.
> 
> Can we all agree on this now?
> 
> ...



Hear hear. Not that I actually want good guys to die but for this war to be *realistic *(at least fiction-wise) people other than fodders should die. I mean come on this is war.



> Just when we get an "and all hope is lost" moment, 40,000 fodder shinobi show up to save the day. Really? There is no suspense in this war. It's a total joke.



Lol I actually felt scared at that 'all hope is lost' moment but was glad and relieved that the Alliance army shows up - even though it was quite deus ex machina.



> And was anyone else expecting all the kages to appear too, magically healed?



Yes I think all Kages save for Tsunade will definitely survive. As for Tsunade realistically I don't think she will (she's low on chakra already and has to revive the other 4 kage). Also I read some posts a while ago saying that Kishi makes sensei-figure characters die to make other characters grow up - which was followed up by another post saying Sakura had little growing-up development so far. So Tsunade might just die to make her grow up.


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## MidvalleySensei (Dec 16, 2012)

1. Juubi kills the entire alliance
2. Have Naruto GO SUPER SAIYAN and beat the Juubi, Madara and Tobi on his own
3. With no other Konoha Shinobi alive, Naruto repopulates the village with non-fodders (disguised clones of himself) and become teh uber-ruthless BloodKage powered by a literal "evil incarnate" demon
4. Naruto hunts down Sasuke, rips out his eyes effortlessly, and has him stoned in town square for daring to disagree with him and not doing what's good the teh village

/masterpiece, but Kishi is too stupid to do it!


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Dec 16, 2012)

Well, we finally got a couple of named character deaths, so I don't know if the major complaint of this thread is still relevant, but I just felt like pointing out something about the response that Kishi can't/shouldn't kill off major characters because the series is aimed at a young demographic.  There are plenty of successful and well-regarded stories aimed at kids that aren't all "sunshine and rainbows".  The most obvious example is the Harry Potter series, which killed off popular characters like Sirius and Fred, and showed Bellatrix using the Cruciatus Curse on Neville.  Not to mention references to things like Bellatrix torturing Neville's parents into insanity, and the rather squicky implications of Fenrir Greyback's preference for attacking children.  Really, after the stellar commercial success of the HP series, no author or editor has any excuse to say, "We can't show good guys getting killed."

I feel like the stereotypical old person going "When I was your age..." here, but I remember reading books as a kid like _Little House on the Prairie_ (one of the kids in the family is blinded by scarlet fever IIRC), _Old Yeller_ (the titular dog has to be put down at the end because he contracts rabies), and _The Giver_ (where the dystopian society portrayed in the story practices euthanasia of the old and of sickly infants).  And these are all books that were aimed at children or teenagers.

Even Naruto hasn't shied away from violence and death in the past--Inari's father's execution by Gato, Hatake Sakumo's suicide, the Uchiha Massacre, the deaths of Hiruzen and Asuma, the sacrifice of Hyuuga Hizashi, Minato and Kushina's deaths, Lee's catastrophic injury, the torture of Kakashi and Sasuke in Tsukiyomi, the statement that Nagato/Pain killed all of Hanzou's supporters "down to the last child", etc.

I'm not saying that the war arc in Naruto needs to include Berserk-level violence, but it's certainly not unreasonable to expect that there will be _some_ negative repercussions of all this for the good guys, and saying that it's a "kids' manga" isn't an excuse.


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## Krippy (Dec 16, 2012)

24'd 

this thread has gone places


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## Revolution (Dec 16, 2012)

Pika, did your opinion change after the recent deaths of last chapter?


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 17, 2012)

Deaths are implied, not confirmed. I don't want to get too excited lest Kishi troll us.

But I did go  when it happened. Fuck yea, Madara.

Though I also expect more. Parents of tertiary characters isn't enough.


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## T-Bag (Dec 17, 2012)

Kishimoto is a queef


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 17, 2012)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> Well, we finally got a couple of named character deaths, so I don't know if the major complaint of this thread is still relevant, but *I just felt like pointing out something about the response that Kishi can't/shouldn't kill off major characters because the series is aimed at a young demographic.*  There are plenty of successful and well-regarded stories aimed at kids that aren't all "sunshine and rainbows".  The most obvious example is the Harry Potter series, which killed off popular characters like Sirius and Fred, and showed Bellatrix using the Cruciatus Curse on Neville.  Not to mention references to things like Bellatrix torturing Neville's parents into insanity, and the rather squicky implications of Fenrir Greyback's preference for attacking children.  Really, after the stellar commercial success of the HP series, no author or editor has any excuse to say, "We can't show good guys getting killed."
> 
> I feel like the stereotypical old person going "When I was your age..." here, but I remember reading books as a kid like _Little House on the Prairie_ (one of the kids in the family is blinded by scarlet fever IIRC), _Old Yeller_ (the titular dog has to be put down at the end because he contracts rabies), and _The Giver_ (where the dystopian society portrayed in the story practices euthanasia of the old and of sickly infants).  And these are all books that were aimed at children or teenagers.
> 
> ...



Oh we are so old. 

But exactly. It's especially ridiculous when there are many popular shounen manga that have quite a bit of death and violence in them, or at least realistic wars. It seemed like once Itachi died, Kishi decided he didn't want any more bad things to happen to the good guys.

There's a chance things are finally turning around now, but I'm leery of getting my hopes up. We'll have to see how things are handled in the coming chapters. Will the war reach true levels of despair for the heroes, or will it turn around so fast that it was as if nothing bad ever happened?


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## Plague (Dec 17, 2012)

What are the chances of Sasuke-kun coming to save the day!


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## Revolution (Dec 17, 2012)




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## yrvd86 (Dec 17, 2012)

You'll forgive kishimoto as your several letters with changes you wanted to see in his manga got lost in the mail. This is another case of someone being mad because the manga isn't going in the direction that "they" want it to. you also picked a bad time to write this as people are dying left and right as well as getting owned.


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## Seto Kaiba (Dec 17, 2012)

yrvd86 said:


> You'll forgive kishimoto as your several letters with changes you wanted to see in his manga got lost in the mail. This is another case of someone being mad because the manga isn't going in the direction that "they" want it to. you also picked a bad time to write this as people are dying left and right as well as getting owned.



You sound like you're trying to comfort yourself, once again.

Also, it's a WAR people are supposed to die. It's not about wanting the story to go in a direction one wants, it's about the expectations the story itself set up! Kishi went on this pseudo-philosophical diatribe about the horrors and complexities of war and he completely avoided them in the only opportunity it is to truly emphasize those points. Learn to read someone's arguments before jumping down their throat about it.


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## Ernie (Dec 17, 2012)

People died, fools. Tell me how people die in Bleach or One Piece, please?! In this war more people died then in those both mangas together.

And Kishi dared to kill the most epic character from all time, Jiraiya!


Then those people are also dead. Learn the manga better I would say. And if like a genius like Shikaku would not think about it if it was a serious possibility.

The only thing what I can understand is the question "where was Mabui" but even then I believe Shikaku and co are dead.


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## Abanikochan (Dec 17, 2012)

Sexy chocolate...


They're dead. Mabui's teleporting technique shreds people apart (except Tsunade who can regenerate and A who is extremely durable) and would've just killed them anyway. 

I don't know...these deaths were kinda meh in my opinion. These characters don't really have that much of an emotional impact on the readers. I'd rather see one emotional and impactful death rather than thousands of insignificant ones in the story. Quality over quantity.


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 18, 2012)

i came pretty close to shedding a man-tear when i saw shikamaru reacting to his dad's final words.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 18, 2012)

yrvd86 said:


> You'll forgive kishimoto as your several letters with changes you wanted to see in his manga got lost in the mail. This is another case of someone being mad because the manga isn't going in the direction that "they" want it to. you also picked a bad time to write this as people are dying left and right as well as getting owned.



Another person who didn't read the OP's date.


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## Kronin (Dec 18, 2012)

Inoichi, Shikaku and Ao are surely dead, overall considering that the last words of the Alliance HQ were all about the importance to do their duty until the end, their last mission.

But anyway the lack of emotional scenes in their deaths makes me believe always more confirmed that in the end Obito will use the Rinnegan to resurrect them, in parallel with the deaths of Shizune and Fukasaku.


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## GrimTwin21589 (Dec 18, 2012)

On the matter of Ao, Inoichi, and Shikaku...I was pretty unhappy about it. Shikaku and Inoichi have been my favorite parents, other than Kushina, since they first made their appearance back when Orochimaru attacked the village. They did their duty till the end though, and gave everyone a way to possibly stop the Juubi and live. Ino and Shikamaru just keep having people close to them die.


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## vefxo (Dec 18, 2012)

so many haters here... kishimoto is doing well,not great but well


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## Klue (Dec 18, 2012)

yrvd86 said:


> You'll forgive kishimoto as your several letters with changes you wanted to see in his manga got lost in the mail. This is another case of someone being mad because the manga isn't going in the direction that "they" want it to. *you also picked a bad time to write this as people are dying left and right as well as getting owned.*



Quoting in case of another massive Rinne Tensei.

But regardless, I still feel as if the OP's post remains valid, to a degree. Randomly killing off characters is fine, especially for a war arc, but why wait until the end?


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## Del Ruiz (Dec 18, 2012)

Klue said:


> Quoting in case of another massive Rinne Tensei.
> 
> But regardless, I still feel as if the OP's post remains valid, to a degree. Randomly killing off characters is fine, especially for a war arc, but why wait until the end?



 The lack of any important character deaths with all the Edo zombies will forever water this war down.

 I expected some epic fights with the Edo kages running around, and people like the former Kages, Hanzo, Kakazu, Nagato, Sasori, Seven Swords of the Mist, ect, ect. Instead we got alot of feel good crap where the only good guys to die were utter fodder that no one cared about.

 I mean, Itachi died to seal these guys up when they were already pretty much done with anyway, and the only one that was doing any kind of harm(Madara) it was useless on. Completely pointless. 

 Still not as nearly as bad as the terrible "war" in Bleach with the Espada, but still not the awesome end-all war that i was expecting. It feels more like Kishi has a check-list of things to do before ending the manga and he is just marking them off one by one before the end.

 To be fair, i also expect that Tsunade will sacrifice herself to save the other kage. The "war" is shaping up to be just that, but i will always hate that an army of unkillable zombie "elite of the world" shinobi were completely unable to kill off anyone of importance.


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## batman22wins (Dec 18, 2012)

Op failed hard


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## Rios (Dec 18, 2012)

Kishimoto is not a coward anymore, he is a coward with a backup plan(Rinne Tensei)


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## Algol (Dec 18, 2012)

god i really hope not with rinne tensei.

the only way i'd be cool with it is if sasuke does it or something. idk why, but i've been warming up to that idea, especially if after him and naruto fight and/or team up on Mads and the juubi, and a redeemed sasuke sacrifices himself to do it


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## Missing_Nin (Dec 18, 2012)

NarutoShippudenBelgium said:


> People died, fools. Tell me how people die in Bleach or One Piece, please?! In this war more people died then in those both mangas together.



OP fans: but but ace and WB. oda doesnt even kill the bad guys.


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 19, 2012)

Missing_Nin said:


> OP fans: but but ace and WB. oda doesnt even kill the bad guys.



actually oda addressed this:



> D: Why doesn't Luffy ever kill his enemies? If you look back, he didn't kill Mohji, he didn't kill Helmeppo or Captain Morgan, or anyone. Well, Zoro was the one who beat Morgan, but still. Why?
> 
> O: Ahh, good question. First of all, Morgan is still alive. He's being held in prison now by his former subordinates. So why didn't Luffy kill him? In this era, people put their lives on their beliefs and convictions, and fight. When he goes into battle, Luffy is destroying others' beliefs. And when these enemies' beliefs are shattered and defeated, they feel a pain equal to death. I think that for these pirates, killing or not killing is secondary to winning or losing.


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## Athruz (Dec 19, 2012)

Yeah, you better take that back right now. He saved some deaths, but he's going all out now.
And it hits hard in the wrong places 

It's still necessary, good and refreshing for the story though 

@dressing the one piece talk:

Millions, millions and many more millions of fodder still die, and most actual named story-related deaths are epic and primarily contribute to the plot.
I don't get why some blame OP for that, it doesn't need alot of deaths and works with what it does.


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## Goud (Dec 19, 2012)

I like the drama that's going on right now, it shows that the trinity (Madara - Obito - Juubi) is actually so dangerous, that anyone can die now. At last the war has started.


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