# OPBD Formal Debate Series #1: Mihawk vs. Shanks



## StrawHat4Life (Feb 2, 2014)

*Team Shanks*




*Team Mihawk*




*Judges* 
Atlantic Storm
Sakazuki
Marcelle.B
Khris
Coruscation 

*How this will work:* 
*Opening Phase:* One member from each team will post an opening argument for their side. Every member of the team must have input in the opening argument. Please provide relevant scans and links for all evidence cited.

*Rebuttal Phase:* One member from each team will post a rebuttal to the opposing side's opening argument. Every member of the team must have input. 

*Rapid Fire Phase:* Members from each team may address each other in direct rebuttals. Judges may ask questions or ask for clarifications, but nothing else. 

*Summation:* One member from each team will post a closing argument. Every member of the team must have input.  

*Voting:* Judges will post their verdict. They must explain their reasoning and cite specific arguments made by each team. Remember, you are voting on which team made the most convincing argument. Your personal opinion on the topic should be irrelevant. 

*Only debaters and judges are allowed to post in this thread. Flaming will not be tolerated and will result in an automatic DQ for the offender.

Good luck and have fun!* ​
​


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 2, 2014)

*Teams have 72 hours to post their opening arguments. *


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## Kuma (Feb 4, 2014)

Normally, the Shanks/Mihawk battle, becomes a drawn out fight due to no rules and moderation. The other factor that draws the fight out are the arguments of "portrayal". It becomes a fight based on how individuals perceive certain data. If left to arguing in this way, we tend to ignore what is drawn as is. It does become difficult due to the two men's minimal appearances in the manga. However, there are enough panels and dialog to be used to demonstrate Shanks being the stronger between the two. 


This is where we can start; from the very begging. Shanks and Mihawk's first meeting. Shanks expresses he isn't in a particularly good mood. Despite that, he does ask Mihawk if he'd like to fight. Mihawk retorts with a "hmmph" Normally, this denotes a level of pouting or frustration. We won't speculate to which one as we couldn't know. But, it is the general meaning. After the "hmmph" he continues with "As if I would want to settle things with a man with only one arm." This is a key phrase. "To settle the score" means 'to clear up a problem' or 'to get even' with someone. If taken as it's said, Mihawk is the one who had the deficit to settle. But, doesn't want to settle up as his opponent has an arm missing. We stated we wan't to avoid using portrayal to make an argument but moments arise where there may be ambiguity in terms. What we speak of is "As if I would want to settle things *with a man with only one arm*" Mainly the bold portion. It's ambiguous and open to interpretation. One such explanation could be Mihawk is saying he doesn't want to settle the score because his rival may not be at full strength thus it's no longer the fight he wanted to have. That would be a pro Shanks argument. One could also view the explanation to show Mihawk is saying you're no longer able to duel as we used to thus fighting is meaningless. That would be a pro Mihawk statement. Due to the ambiguity of the bold part of the line, even as a Shanks sympathizer, I have to point that out. However, there is a clear fact within the same line. That clarity would be Mihawk is the one with the debt to be settled with Shanks. 

From this, the second point to be made would their paths in life after their duels. Shanks went on to become a Yonkou; Mihawk went on the become a Shichibukai. Normally, this is either disregarded are superfluous or ignored entirely. But, this is actually an important key that can be explored without making any assumptions or fallacies. The Shichibukai are "Privateers" Government sanctioned pirates. They're used to deter pirates from their lifestyle with their strength, prowess and, lore. No matter which way you'd like to term it, they're government weapons and tools. For this service, they are offered a vale of protection from the government. Mihawk is one of these men. Residing in the former part of the Grand Line. The Yonkou are entirely different. They are the 4 most powerful and globally influential pirates. Residing in the latter half of the Grand Line where the big names gather to carve out a new generation and a new world, Shanks has become one of those 4 pinnacle pirates. Accomplishing something four others aside from him have. Apart from becoming the pirate king, this is the next step. 4 individuals no one is capable of easily beating and that manage to stalemate each other in their dominance of the world.

This portion will present the panel evidence to help support the claim of Shanks being the stronger of the two.


First one is his prowess to duel with Whitebeard. Newgate, at the time, was the World's Strongest Man. He was a man who could only be properly fought against by the three Admirals. No one else other than the strongest men in the Marines were capable of clashing with him. Like those powerful three, Shanks is the only one, aside from the color trio, shown capable of clashing with the monster, Shirohige. In comparison, Mihawk has yet to show any indication of such prowess.



To further exemplify his prowess, they represent the two Yonkou who are so mighty and strong willed, their clashing split the heavens themselves. 



Here we have Shanks appearing out of the clear blue to block and stop Sakazuki in his tracks. This is another moment that can be overlooked. But, again, let's draw a frame work. The commanders of the Whitebeard Pirates along with Crocodile in their combined might could not stall Sakazuki for very long. Even as a joint force, they were unable to delay him long and not capable to stop his fighting spirit. He was a man on a mission regardless of who stood in his way. Until this moment. Alone, not 16 on 1, with one arm; Shanks not only stopped the magma fist of Sakazuki but he completely rendered him ineffective. There were no more attacks from him. The man who disdains pirates had one inches in front of him. Instead of fighting, the mighty admiral capable of inflicting massive damage to Newgate and staving an advance from the commanding members of said crew yielded to one man. Then, that one man along with 7 friends were enough to stop clear over 100 thousand men from continuing a war.


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## Kuma (Feb 4, 2014)

Continue...

This page also possess great importance. Black Beard and his crew just finished killing White Beard and were now facing off against to of the legendary marines, Garp and Sengoku. They fought and had no intentions on stopping as Black Beard's goal was to sink Marine Ford. Teach had no intentions on backing down until Shanks showed up. Immediately, he conceded and admitted they weren't ready for them. Full Teach possessed full confidence to sink MF with the Admirals, Garp and, Sengoku there but wouldn't dare budge at the presence of Shanks
                This is about Shanks being stronger so we will not spend much time on Mihawk but we can get straight to the point.


Not knowing if it's just his disposition or if it's a reality Mihawk felt the distance to he and Whitebeard were close. Could be taken as a metaphor or literal. In either case, his decision was to measure that distance. In doing so, he could gauge the literal distance between he and Whitebeard or the figurative distance. Regardless of which interpretation one would like to use, the result remained the same. His test was rendered null by third division commander Jozu. In the test to measure distance, he didn't even get to complete the measurement. Jozu stopped everything on his own power. There's no comparison to a Yonkou or Admiral. It only showed it wasn't strong enough for even Jozu.  This is not to say that Mihawk is only a strong as Jozu but it just says it doesn't take a Yonkou to stop or fight Mihawk, Another example would be Vista.


Now we have his last real feat


With his swing, Mihawk was capable of bisecting the giant iceberg. As impressive as the feat is it is matched and eclipsed by a similar feat.


Again, most would ignore this feat and it's match but it can't be. It actually says something. It says, no matter where you hold Mihawk. Whether you hold him as a top top tier or mid or low or just a high tier, his strongest feat is only on the level of a fellow Shichibukai. His only known maximum power output is on the same level as Law. Could he be stronger than that and able to do more? That's indeed possible but, it's conjecture and can never be proven. Saying that's all he is capable of is just as "true" as saying he could do way better until we have the evidence to substantiate the claim. One could assume but never prove it. Another set of facts that are hard to avoid are his opponents. Mihawk has went against Vista, Crocodile and Daz Bones. Daz was easily defeated but the first two were capable of staving off Mihawk.


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## Kuma (Feb 4, 2014)

The final argument we are going to be faced with is Mihawk's title. This is a Lost in Translation: It is important to use his Japanese title to first build a framework for Mihawk as this is a debate in strength. Typically, in our debates, this is the most contested of the hot topics. We posters build arguments around which term best defines Mihawk. Is he the best? Is he the strongest? We feel it's best to start with framing his position. "Sekai Saikyō no Kenshi" is the Japanese term. Breaking it down would show us Sekai meaning "world." "Saikyō," This is the word of contention. Any research done on the meaning of this word lead to it's definition being closest to "best" "greatest" "highest." "No" Would be akin to the English use of "of." Lastly, a practitioner of the sword(ken) "kenshi." Kenshi is used opposed to "Kendoka" to show the disction between a sword user and Swordsman. So, translated as is, it would read "World's greatest, best highest of the swordsman" Or "World's greatest swordsman" in a cleaner English translation. This is not a term of strength. It is a term of skill and proficiency. While, at first glance, may appear to be the same; are in fact mutually exclusive concepts.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 4, 2014)

*Team Mihawk has 17 hours to post their opening argument.*


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## halaros536 (Feb 4, 2014)

So, Shanks vs Mihawk. The debate of debates. A subject so commonly debated, that it has been carved into history. And it's finally gonna end.

Before saying anything else, I need to clarify that *our team does not hold the belief that we can say who is the strongest with absolute certainity at this point. *We acknowledge both as two of the strongest top tiers. We do believe though that the most reasonable choice according to the manga is Mihawk and the reasons are simple.


-Mihawk's title. Aka Strongest Swordsman in the world. Many people here have the tendency to think that somehow this is not relevant, but we consider it is. The reason we believe this, is that Shanks nowhere in the manga has used anything other than swordsmanship, while he has been in battle situations. Him having a devil fruit ability is not likely, given Shanks' opinion on devil fruits. Thus, it is really reasonable to categorize Shanks as a swordsman. One can claim that he can possibly be something else, but how likely is it? What reason do we have to believe it? What indicates that Shanks is anything other than a swordsman? Nothing at all so far.

-Mihawk and Shanks' past rivarly. Another fact that clearly portrays Shanks' as a swordsman, since it's clear that Mihawk's notorious rival shouldn't be anything else than a swordsman. At some point Mihawk gained the title of the strongest swordsman and Shanks did not. Why is that we ask?




Those are our main arguments, which will be further developped as the debate goes on.

Now before some people start screaming in front of their PCs about the famous counter arguments that people have to show which would impy Shanks' superiority like his yonkou title, portrayal and numerous others, we inform you, that we are gonna adress this later and show beyond any reasonable doubt that these arguments don't hold any weight. In this OA our aim was to briefly present our main pro Mihawk arguments  and we're gonna debunk all the famous pro Shanks arguments once the debate starts.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 4, 2014)

*Teams have 24 hours to post a main rebuttal. Then the rapid fire phase will begin.*


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 5, 2014)

BartholomewKuma said:


> Normally, the Shanks/Mihawk battle, becomes a drawn out fight due to no rules and moderation. The other factor that draws the fight out are the arguments of "portrayal". It becomes a fight based on how individuals perceive certain data. If left to arguing in this way, we tend to ignore what is drawn as is. It does become difficult due to the two men's minimal appearances in the manga. However, there are enough panels and dialog to be used to demonstrate Shanks being the stronger between the two.
> 
> 
> This is where we can start; from the very begging. Shanks and Mihawk's first meeting. Shanks expresses he isn't in a particularly good mood. Despite that, he does ask Mihawk if he'd like to fight. Mihawk retorts with a "hmmph" Normally, this denotes a level of pouting or frustration. We won't speculate to which one as we couldn't know. But, it is the general meaning. After the "hmmph" he continues with "As if I would want to settle things with a man with only one arm." This is a key phrase. "To settle the score" means 'to clear up a problem' or 'to get even' with someone. If taken as it's said, Mihawk is the one who had the deficit to settle. But, doesn't want to settle up as his opponent has an arm missing. We stated we wan't to avoid using portrayal to make an argument but moments arise where there may be ambiguity in terms. What we speak of is "As if I would want to settle things *with a man with only one arm*" Mainly the bold portion. It's ambiguous and open to interpretation. One such explanation could be Mihawk is saying he doesn't want to settle the score because his rival may not be at full strength thus it's no longer the fight he wanted to have. That would be a pro Shanks argument. One could also view the explanation to show Mihawk is saying you're no longer able to duel as we used to thus fighting is meaningless. That would be a pro Mihawk statement. Due to the ambiguity of the bold part of the line, even as a Shanks sympathizer, I have to point that out. *However, there is a clear fact within the same line. That clarity would be Mihawk is the one with the debt to be settled with Shanks.*




*I'm not sure why you wrote two paragraphs of material that you yourself basically admit can't even be used in this debate. We deal with confirmed facts or strong evidence, things that are so ambiguous you can derive multiple meanings from them are useless in a debate between two positions such as this one.  

That said, you did claim one thing. That being that the interaction you noted means that Mihawk is, without a doubt, the one with the debt to settle and not the other way around. There is no way for you to prove this (nor is there a way for someone to concusively disprove it) and I challenge you to do so. *



> From this, the second point to be made would their paths in life after their duels. Shanks went on to become a Yonkou; Mihawk went on the become a Shichibukai. Normally, this is either disregarded are superfluous or ignored entirely. But, this is actually an important key that can be explored without making any assumptions or fallacies. The Shichibukai are "Privateers" Government sanctioned pirates. They're used to deter pirates from their lifestyle with their strength, prowess and, lore. No matter which way you'd like to term it, they're government weapons and tools. For this service, they are offered a vale of protection from the government. Mihawk is one of these men. Residing in the former part of the Grand Line. The Yonkou are entirely different. They are the 4 most powerful and globally influential pirates. Residing in the latter half of the Grand Line where the big names gather to carve out a new generation and a new world, Shanks has become one of those 4 pinnacle pirates. Accomplishing something four others aside from him have. Apart from becoming the pirate king, this is the next step. 4 individuals no one is capable of easily beating and that manage to stalemate each other in their dominance of the world.



*So what you're basically saying is being a Schichbukai means or implies he's weaker than Shanks? Please do go on.
*


> This portion will present the panel evidence to help support the claim of Shanks being the stronger of the two.
> 
> 
> First one is his prowess to duel with Whitebeard. Newgate, at the time, was the World's Strongest Man. He was a man who could only be properly fought against by the three Admirals. No one else other than the strongest men in the Marines were capable of clashing with him. Like those powerful three, Shanks is the only one, aside from the color trio, shown capable of clashing with the monster, Shirohige. In comparison, Mihawk has yet to show any indication of such prowess.
> ...



*I'm not sure what you're trying to play at. You mention various amazing feats of Shanks but you fail to compare them to any of Mihawk's. At most you mention Mihawk doesn't have anything to match, which doesn't work as you can't compare two people in something if one has been put to the test and the other has not. what you are doing is like me trying to prove Doflamingo is stronger than Hancock, listing his feats but then failing to compare them to anything of Hancock's. That's not an argument. 

And you even got some facts wrong. For example, you say Akainu was fighting 16 on 1 but if you read the chapters more carefully you' see that he actually got backup pretty quickly from half of the Marines on the island. So it was really more like 16 people vs Akainu and a couple thousand Marines. *


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## Magician (Feb 5, 2014)

*Rebuttal​*


halaros536 said:


> -Mihawk's title. Aka Strongest Swordsman in the world. Many people here have the tendency to think that somehow this is not relevant, but we consider it is. The reason we believe this, is that Shanks nowhere in the manga has used anything other than swordsmanship, while he has been in battle situations. Him having a devil fruit ability is not likely, given Shanks' opinion on devil fruits. Thus, it is really reasonable to categorize Shanks as a swordsman. One can claim that he can possibly be something else, but how likely is it? What reason do we have to believe it? What indicates that Shanks is anything other than a swordsman? Nothing at all so far.
> 
> -Mihawk and Shanks' past rivarly. Another fact that clearly portrays Shanks' as a swordsman, since it's clear that Mihawk's notorious rival shouldn't be anything else than a swordsman. At some point Mihawk gained the title of the strongest swordsman and Shanks did not. Why is that we ask?



First off, on the topic of Mihawk's title I think my teammate summed it up well. Mihawk's title is not correctly translated as The World's *Strongest* Swordsman, but The World's *Greatest* Swordsman instead. A small distinction, but nevertheless important in this debate. Like Kuma said it's more of a title of proficiency and skill rather than pure strength.

For example, if I told you that Mohammed Ali was the World's Strongest Boxer it would have a complete different connotation than if I were to say he was the World's Greatest Boxer. Saying "Greatest" implies the skill and proficiency he has in that specific area.

An example on the matter of Strength vs Proficiency, we can look at two characters who use swords as their main style that kind of show this difference, specifically Zoro and Law.

Zoro, in particular, is well versed in swordplay, who's main purpose in life is to be the greatest swordsman in the world.[ And another who simply uses his sword to complement the fighting style he developed when used in conjunction with his devil fruit. We'd be talking about two completely different debates if we compared the two characters overall strength level over their proficiency with a sword. 

In terms of Shanks vs Mihawk, Mihawk could very well be more proficient with a sword than Shanks, which would make him the greater swordsman, but it doesn't necessarily conclude on who's overall stronger between the two.

Granted, from what we've seen, Shanks main fighting style involves the use of a sword, but we can't completely rule out the possibility of him using other techniques in conjunction with him handling a sword.

Without mentioning chapter specific spoilers, we've seen with Sabo, how his main fighting style revolves around his pipe, but that doesn't exclude him from using other techniques(specifically haki related) as well.

Now, I'm not completely eliminating the possibility of Mihawk being the better overall fighter. Like you said, we don't know. These two characters have very little screen time and it's tough to say who'd win when we haven't seen much from these combatants.

But I don't believe his World's Greatest Swordsman title *alone*, is enough to say whose the better of the two. I don't believe it's that simple.


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## 2Broken (Feb 6, 2014)

^Ignore that deleted post I confused myself. 



♦Young Master♦ said:


> First off, on the topic of Mihawk's title I think my teammate summed it up well. Mihawk's title is not correctly translated as The World's *Strongest* Swordsman, but The World's *Greatest* Swordsman instead. A small distinction, but nevertheless important in this debate. Like Kuma said it's more of a title of proficiency and skill rather than pure strength.



No one is saying Mihawk is the physically strongest person carrying a sword, only that him being the World's Greatest Swordsman makes him unmatched in swordplay ability.



♦Young Master♦ said:


> For example, if I told you that Mohammed Ali was the World's Strongest Boxer it would have a complete different connotation than if I were to say he was the World's Greatest Boxer. Saying "Greatest" implies the skill and proficiency he has in that specific area.



And Muhammad Ali was the heavy weight champion of the World was he not? He couldn't necessarily bench more than any other boxer, but he could beat them all in a boxing match; same thing applies to Mihawk.



♦Young Master♦ said:


> An example on the matter of Strength vs Proficiency, we can look at two characters who use swords as their main style that kind of show this difference, specifically Zoro and Law.



We really can't seeing how we know Law has a devil fruit augmenting his abilities. Take away Law's devil fruit and it is the greatest swordsman who will win the fight.



♦Young Master♦ said:


> Zoro, in particular, is well versed in swordplay, who's main purpose in life is to be the greatest swordsman in the world.[ And another who simply uses his sword to complement the fighting style he developed when used in conjunction with his devil fruit. We'd be talking about two completely different debates if we compared the two characters overall strength level over their proficiency with a sword.



This does nothing to help your argument. We know Law has a devil fruit to aid him in combat, Shanks has only shown swordplay. 



♦Young Master♦ said:


> In terms of Shanks vs Mihawk, Mihawk could very well be more proficient with a sword than Shanks, which would make him the greater swordsman, but it doesn't necessarily conclude on who's overall stronger between the two.



Everything points to Mihawk being the better swordsman and Shanks has shown he is primarily a swordsman. There is no evidence of Shanks using any other form of combat, if there is feel free to provide it.



♦Young Master♦ said:


> Granted, from what we've seen, Shanks main fighting style involves the use of a sword, but we can't completely rule out the possibility of him using other techniques in conjunction with him handling a sword.



And what are these techniques that could make him stronger than Mihawk?



♦Young Master♦ said:


> Without mentioning chapter specific spoilers, we've seen with Sabo, how his main fighting style revolves around his pipe, but that doesn't exclude him from using other techniques(specifically haki related) as well.



How is that helping your argument here?



♦Young Master♦ said:


> Now, I'm not completely eliminating the possibility of Mihawk being the better overall fighter. Like you said, we don't know. These two characters have very little screen time and it's tough to say who'd win when we haven't seen much from these combatants.



True, but based on the evidence we have the fight would go to Mihawk.



♦Young Master♦ said:


> But I don't believe his World's Greatest Swordsman title *alone*, is enough to say whose the better of the two. I don't believe it's that simple.



It is not, but it is powerful evidence when Shanks has only been seen using a sword.
















^There are several links of Shanks ranging from even when he was a child that show him instantly resorting to his sword when he is preparing to fight or is fighting. I challenge you to find one panel that shows evidence that he would fight in any other way other than with swordplay. Also if you want to use some made up form of combat that Shanks hasn't shown please provide evidence for it.


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## halaros536 (Feb 6, 2014)

Let's examine some of our respectful opponents' arguments:

*The Yonkou title.*

The Yonkou title cannot be used to say that Shanks should be stronger than Mihawk. The reason for that is, that for someone to be a Yonkou, personal strength is not the only factor. You need to have a great crew, be a good leader among other things. A lone man cannot be a Yonkou even if he is stronger than Whitebeard himself. You cannot make a strength comparison just based on that.


*Jozu stopping his attack. *

According to you, this showed that it doesn't take a yonkou to stop Mihawk's attack. A great observation. For this feat to have any meaning in the comparison between the two though, you would have to provide evidence that Jozu wouldn't have been able to block a Yonko's attack and that only a Yonkou level fighter can do so. Do you have proof for this? Otherwise, this feat is irrelevant to our discussion.


*Vista clashing with Mihawk and Crocodile distracting him for a moment. *

Same as above. I feel the need to remind you that Crocodile interrupted Akainu at some point.


*
Shanks and Mihawk meeting*


The interpretation about the meaning behind Shanks' and Mihawk's dialogue during their meeting, is your interpretation and nothing more. One could easily reverse this and say that Mihawk was looking down on him. I'm not gonna do it, cause I don't like using silly arguments. Personally, I would recommend dropping this argument, as it cannot be used for either side.


*
The title*


Concering Mihawk's title, I believe that we're dealing with a very simple concept, which is being overanalysed right now. I would like the opposing team to answer a question for me in the third state. Do you guys really think, that Zoro wants to beat Mihawk because that will mean that he is strongest than any other swordsman, or because he just wants to be more "skilled" without necessarily meaning that he's the strongest? I would like you to think about it and then give an honest answer.

That's for my main rebuttal, I'll adress more when the actual debate starts.


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## Magician (Feb 6, 2014)

I thought the teams get one rebuttal? Or did the rapid phase start already?


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 6, 2014)

*Rapid fire round has begun and will continue for the next 24 hours. Each judge may ask up to two questions. *


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## Kuma (Feb 6, 2014)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 6, 2014)

*Judge's Questions*

I'd like to request that only one member of each team replies to my question for the sake of keeping up. I can't juggle all six contestants at once. And mind you, these are just evaluation question, I don't ask you to convince me of anything other than showing me how good your debating skills are.* I won't even reply to the answers. *

Seeing as how I asked Team Mihawk two questions, *they can either choose to answer one or both to their liking. *

*My first question is for Team Shanks.* 



♦Young Master♦ said:


> *Rebuttal​*
> 
> 
> First off, on the topic of Mihawk's title I think my teammate summed it up well. Mihawk's title is not correctly translated as The World's *Strongest* Swordsman, but The World's *Greatest* Swordsman instead. A small distinction, but nevertheless important in this debate. Like Kuma said it's more of a title of proficiency and skill rather than pure strength.
> ...





BartholomewKuma said:


> The final argument we are going to be faced with is Mihawk's title. This is a Lost in Translation: It is important to use his Japanese title to first build a framework for Mihawk as this is a debate in strength. Typically, in our debates, this is the most contested of the hot topics. We posters build arguments around which term best defines Mihawk. Is he the best? Is he the strongest? We feel it's best to start with framing his position. "Sekai Saikyō no Kenshi" is the Japanese term. Breaking it down would show us Sekai meaning "world." "Saikyō," This is the word of contention. Any research done on the meaning of this word lead to it's definition being closest to "best" "greatest" "highest." "No" Would be akin to the English use of "of." Lastly, a practitioner of the sword(ken) "kenshi." Kenshi is used opposed to "Kendoka" to show the disction between a sword user and Swordsman. So, translated as is, it would read "World's greatest, best highest of the swordsman" Or "World's greatest swordsman" in a cleaner English translation. This is not a term of strength. It is a term of skill and proficiency. While, at first glance, may appear to be the same; are in fact mutually exclusive concepts.





While true that the translations might be literally akin to "Greatest" rather than "Strongest". Does anyone really think that the title wasn't (or isn't) a direct association with strength or in general known terms here, level? 

With the way Zoro and Mihawk's rivalry was setup, it was obvious for from the most casual of readers to One Piece "experts" that this was another case of "A character wanting to surpass B character, because B character is "this and that"." 

Also, "greatest" can be directly associated with "strongest" can it not? Especially if we're talking combat sports or martial arts. Actually using the Ali argument proves it, Ali might not have been literally the strongest but he was the best, in the sense no body could beat him. If it's applied here, then it's the same. 

Also, reading both Newgate's and Mihawk's Epithets, they're pretty much the same.

Sekai Saikyō no Otoko
Sekai Saikyō no Kenshi

And it was obvious Newgate was the strongest, no doubt. 


*My second question is for Team Mihawk*



> The Yonkou title.
> 
> The Yonkou title cannot be used to say that Shanks should be stronger than Mihawk. The reason for that is, that for someone to be a Yonkou, personal strength is not the only factor. You need to have a great crew, be a good leader among other things. A lone man cannot be a Yonkou even if he is stronger than Whitebeard himself. You cannot make a strength comparison just based on that.



How is that one title (WSS) is relevant and the other isn't(Yonko)? Sure, one title could mean more in some comparisons, but how is it okay to completely disregard the latter? Unlike Newgate, we haven't fully seen what makes the Yonkos so strong. It could be anything. And they're obviously strong, Shanks did stalemate a casual clash with Newgate, that is a fact. While strength is not the only factor, it's a mighty significant one. No Yonko is gonna be a Yonko without monstrous-like strength that should at the very least rival the admirals.  

*My third question is for Team Mihawk.* 



> -Mihawk's title. Aka Strongest Swordsman in the world. Many people here have the tendency to think that somehow this is not relevant, but we consider it is. The reason we believe this, is that Shanks nowhere in the manga has used anything other than swordsmanship, while he has been in battle situations. Him having a devil fruit ability is not likely, given Shanks' opinion on devil fruits. Thus, it is really reasonable to categorize Shanks as a swordsman. One can claim that he can possibly be something else, but how likely is it? What reason do we have to believe it? What indicates that Shanks is anything other than a swordsman? Nothing at all so far.
> 
> -Mihawk and Shanks' past rivarly. Another fact that clearly portrays Shanks' as a swordsman, since it's clear that Mihawk's notorious rival shouldn't be anything else than a swordsman. At some point Mihawk gained the title of the strongest swordsman and Shanks did not. Why is that we ask?





> Everything points to Mihawk being the better swordsman and Shanks has shown he is primarily a swordsman. There is no evidence of Shanks using any other form of combat, if there is feel free to provide it.



Are we absolutely sure his main fighting style is swordsmanship though? How do you explain his monstrous CotC against a Yonko crew like the Whitebeard pirates? For all we know he could be just like Rayleigh and Kizaru. 

Other than the "rivalry" thing with Mihawk and a few panels, Shanks as a swordsmen isn't absolute, or do you have anymore proof that he is?


_Good luck to all. _


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## Kuma (Feb 6, 2014)

> While true that the translations might be literally akin to "Greatest" rather than "Strongest". Does anyone really think that the title wasn't (or isn't) a direct association with strength or in general known terms here, level?



I can't honestly answer for how everyone views this. From the general temperature of the debates held would show many hold this to be an indication of strength and some don't. It's not a notion I ever entertained. With synonyms, one must always keep in mind that they are *similar * terms and not always interchangeable. That's more so evident in this discussion. Greatest and Strongest aren't even synonymous. They are just used that way for arguments sake. That is a very idiomatic use of English. The word "greatest" does not possess any relation to strength unless it is inferred. In the One Piece story, Mihawk is toted as the greatest swordsman. In the story, we find no real reason to assume being the greatest is equivalent with being the strongest. So, without such references, I have to abide by the rules of language and not infer an idiomatic definition. Meaning using the correct definition of "Strongest' and "Greatest'



> With the way Zoro and Mihawk's rivalry was setup, it was obvious for from the most casual of readers to One Piece "experts" that this was another case of "A character wanting to surpass B character, because B character is "this and that"."



This isn't fleshed yet so this would be considered 'Affirming the Consequent.' Affirming the Consequent is as follows. {If 'A' then 'B' Then if 'B' --> 'A'} In words an example would be, " It was raining so the ground is wet... The ground is wet, therefore it was raining} This leaves out room for any number of possible conclusions such as a fire hydrant or a street cleaner. In regards to Mihawk's strength arguments, it goes as follows... "Because Zoro sees Mihawk as his goal therefore Mihawk is an EOS character and among the strongest" But, this is only conjecture. This concept makes an assumption that this selected outcome is the only possible one in the story. One, Mihawk is not Zoro's goal. The title is. If Mihawk lost this title to anyone anywhere, that new summit and goal would be Zoro's aim. But, this idea isn't entertained. Mihawk could lose his title to Zoro earlier in the story. This can be continued for many different scenarios. These multitudes of examples are rarely if ever explored and the dogma of Mihawk being the EOS fight prevails. As Joseph Goebbels said "If something is repeated enough, it becomes true." This is one of those instances when a theory or conjecture is just said so many times, it's accepted to be true. As if it were an axiom. But, in reality, the conclusion has yet to be shown. Any number of things may happen so using this as an argument is a castle built on sand.



> Also, "greatest" can be directly associated with "strongest" can it not? Especially if we're talking combat sports or martial arts. Actually using the Ali argument proves it, Ali might not have been literally the strongest but he was the best, in the sense no body could beat him. If it's applied here, then it's the same.




Yes. You're correct, in idiomatic speech, the two terms can be directly associated. But, to do so, you first have to draw a reference to that. It has to be shown why these terms are being interchanged. Without showing that, one would be using words and definitions that don't match and expect others to understand that. That is what we call a code. A hidden definition or an esoteric definition that only those who are aware of the change of definitions would notice.





> Also, reading both Newgate's and Mihawk's Epithets, they're pretty much the same.
> 
> Sekai Saikyō no Otoko
> Sekai Saikyō no Kenshi
> ...



This posses the biggest issue. But, it does fit with my previous explanations. Newgate's term is translated as the strongest despite it not being a direct translation. But, through out his appearances, the concept of being the strongest was developed. Being the only man to match Roger, being able to hold court with the 3 other yonkou, his performance at the war. There isn't another man shown to be capable of combating 3 Admirals and multitudes of soldiers. So, a framework was built around Newgate to support the claim. That same framework was never lain for Mihawk. As such, it wouldn't be equivalent to say the two terms have the same definition. What we seen from Mihawk is all about skill and proficiency. The ease of which he uses his techniques and the finesse in doing so. Everything about him is about elegance rather than brute force. The framework for Newgate and Mihawk aren't the same.


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## Coruscation (Feb 6, 2014)

Preface: when responding, it would be preferrable that only one member of a team replies to my questions. If more than one member has valuable input it would be preferrable to coordinate your responses into a single post, to make it easier to handle. As with Khris, I don't intend to keep replying here but only to question what I feel were weak points or uncertainties in the argumentes presented. I also want to note that each team may not have the same amount of questions asked of them but this is not necessarily an indication that I feel one argument is weaker than the other. It simply indicates that I felt it was more pertinent to ask these questions over any others; and may also indicate that other judges have already asked questions I would otherwise have considered to be important.

*My first question, for team Shanks.*



BartholomewKuma said:


> "As if I would want to settle things with a man with only one arm." This is a key phrase. "To settle the score" means 'to clear up a problem' or 'to get even' with someone. If taken as it's said, Mihawk is the one who had the deficit to settle. But, doesn't want to settle up as his opponent has an arm missing. We stated we wan't to avoid using portrayal to make an argument but moments arise where there may be ambiguity in terms. What we speak of is "As if I would want to settle things with a man with only one arm" Mainly the bold portion. It's ambiguous and open to interpretation. One such explanation could be Mihawk is saying he doesn't want to settle the score because his rival may not be at full strength thus it's no longer the fight he wanted to have. That would be a pro Shanks argument. One could also view the explanation to show Mihawk is saying you're no longer able to duel as we used to thus fighting is meaningless. That would be a pro Mihawk statement. Due to the ambiguity of the bold part of the line, even as a Shanks sympathizer, I have to point that out. However, there is a clear fact within the same line. That clarity would be Mihawk is the one with the debt to be settled with Shanks.



You make here the claim that it is a fact that Mihawk is the one with the debt to settle. You affirm this again in one of your responses to team Mihawk. My question here is: have you confirmed that the meaning of this line is the same in the original, Japanese version? This could be done by asking a reputable translator or personally, if any of you have knowledge of the language, looking at the Japanese original. Because if you don't know for a fact that this is the true meaning in the words, you also can not make the claim that it's a fact that Mihawk is the one with the debt. Correct translations are important when making the claim that something is a fact based on a very specific usage of words which is why I ask this of you. 


*My second question, for team Shanks.*



BartholomewKuma said:


> With his swing, Mihawk was capable of bisecting the giant iceberg. As impressive as the feat is it is matched and eclipsed by a similar feat.
> 
> Again, most would ignore this feat and it's match but it can't be. It actually says something. It says, no matter where you hold Mihawk. Whether you hold him as a top top tier or mid or low or just a high tier, his strongest feat is only on the level of a fellow Shichibukai. His only known maximum power output is on the same level as Law.



You make here the claim that Mihawk's feat of cutting a multi-kilometer sized iceberg in half with one swing of his sword only shows the same power output as Law, and is only a feat on the same level as Law's. This statement ignores the fact that Law's spatial manipulation and Mihawk's sword swings work very differently. In terms of the "power" put out, the physical energy, cutting an object of that size shows a level of power in one move that Law has never come close to showing. Thus depending on how the word power is defined your statement is not the full truth. The difference in how each result was produced should not be neglected. In terms of ordinary physical power output, Mihawk's feat is of a level that has only been matched by very few individuals in terms of environmental destruction. Described this way, which is also a truth, it paints Mihawk and his feat in a completely different light. My question is why you chose to only describe the feat in terms of the effect and not in terms of the cause? Surely both are important when evaluating a character on an objective level?


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 6, 2014)

Like the other judges, I'd prefer to have only one member of each team to reply to my questions. I don't have the time or energy to respond to a stream of different responses from different users. 

I. Question for Team Shanks:


> First off, on the topic of Mihawk's title I think my teammate summed it up well. Mihawk's title is not correctly translated as The World's Strongest Swordsman, but The World's Greatest Swordsman instead. A small distinction, but nevertheless important in this debate. Like Kuma said it's more of a title of proficiency and skill rather than pure strength.



This isn't necessarily a bad point, but it's not great either and it comes off as grasping at straws. I reckon most people would say that 'strongest' and 'greatest' generally have the same connotation as each other, regardless of differences between literal translations. In manga, especially, 'strongest' tends to connote just being the best in general as opposed to referring to physical strength.

I admire the detail you've put into finding the differences between the translations and the respective titles, but it's just not that strong an argument as literary intent and feats indicates that Mihawk is basically the all around best swordsman in almost every single area.

With that being said, do you think the fact that Mihawk not being the most physically strong swordsman - but instead being the most skilled - is actually important here? 

II. Question for Team Shanks:



> With his swing, Mihawk was capable of bisecting the giant iceberg. As impressive as the feat is it is matched and eclipsed by a similar feat.
> 
> Again, most would ignore this feat and it's match but it can't be. It actually says something. It says, no matter where you hold Mihawk. Whether you hold him as a top top tier or mid or low or just a high tier, his strongest feat is only on the level of a fellow Shichibukai. His only known maximum power output is on the same level as Law.



This is pretty weak as well, since you're looking at it superficially. Both sliced a similar sized object, but Law's wasn't by merit of being as strong or as skilled as Mihawk, it was accomplished through using his Room, which bypasses standard durability. If by power output, you mean kinetic energy, then it should be fairly obvious that Mihawk's feat is by far superior to Law's.


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## Magician (Feb 6, 2014)

2Broken said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My point is that, using the World's Strongest Swordsman argument for Mihawk isn't an end all be all for this debate. We can argue over semantics all day but we'd just being running in circles. 

The possibility of Shanks using other techniques isn't set in stone, nor proven, yes, but what I'm trying to get at is that we can't completely rule out the possibility. There's multiple avenues Oda can use for Shanks fighting style that doesn't have to be limited to pure swordsmanship. 

So yes, we have Mihawk's title, so that's a point of debate but that's not a conclusive argument by any means, there can be multiple reasons why he has that title that doesn't _have_ to be him being stronger than everyone who holds a sword during combat(Roger even held a sword at one point).

Your groups' main point of debate in your opening statement is solely built around his title, which I'm trying to argue isn't conclusive and there's other areas to look at when judging these characters strength in relation to each other.

-

One of the things that we can look at is what they've actually shown *on panel*.

Shanks has consistently clashed with some of the strongest characters in the series on equal ground. Whether it's clashing with Whitebeard and splitting the heavens, stopping Kaido who had full intent to sail all the way to Marineford to take Whitebeard's head, clashing with a blood lusted Akainu and making him back down, and forcing the Blackbeard Pirates to retreat who had previously shown fearlessness against the likes of Whitebeard(albeit half dead), Sengoku, and Garp, and had their minds set on sinking Marineford.

Mihawk, however, hasn't had as a prestigious of a showing from what we've seen during Marineford. Him having his slash, aiming at Whitebeard trying to see the difference between the two, being blocked by Jozu (a 3rd division commander) and being stalemated by Vista(a 5th division commander). Outside of that we have Mihawk clashing with the likes of Crocodile and one-shotting Daz Bones.

His biggest feat, however, is him casually cutting a huge iceberg in half when aiming at Luffy. Which I admit is pretty fucking impressive and one of the things that opened a lot of people's eyes at the potential of his strength level. But we've seen how much Admiral level and above fighters can put out with the aftermath of the Aokiji and Akainu fight. Even Ace and Blackbeard were able to engulf half an island with their techniques. Don Chinjao did something similar to Mihawk when he broke an ice continent in half and Garp stated he crushed a mountain in preparation for his fight with Chinjao.

So while that's a great feat, it's not something that any other top tier in the manga couldn't replicate.

-

So on the basis of what they've shown on panel, Shanks definitely has the edge in that department seeing as Mihawk hasn't fought anyone worth their buck outside of Jozu and Vista who are Yonko underlings. At this point the burden is on Mihawk to prove he's on the same level of strength as Shanks is.

Could Mihawk show something more later on in the manga? Sure. But as of this moment, Shanks definitely has the "+1" in this regard which is why my team and I believe Shanks to have the current edge at this point in the story 

Could that change? Absolutely. Like your teammate said, there's no way to say with absolute certainty who's the stronger between the two with the severe lack of screen time these two characters have, but if you had to say who has the edge, in terms of portrayal, feats, and on panel showings, Shanks would be your guy.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 6, 2014)

Khris said:


> [*How is that one title (WSS) is relevant and the other isn't(Yonko)?* Sure, one title could mean more in some comparisons, but how is it okay to completely disregard the latter? Unlike Newgate, we haven't fully seen what makes the Yonkos so strong. It could be anything. And they're obviously strong, Shanks did stalemate a casual clash with Newgate, that is a fact. While strength is not the only factor, it's a mighty significant one. No Yonko is gonna be a Yonko without monstrous-like strength that should at the very least rival the admirals.



*Because the title of WSS is more specific than the title of Emperor. The Emperor title means Shanks is a higher level top-tier and no one disputes this. However the title of WSS means more than just being an upper high-tier, as we have examples of Admirals and people like Rayleigh using swordsmanship. For the purposes of this discussion the title of WSS is more relevant. 
*


> Are we absolutely sure his main fighting style is swordsmanship though? How do you explain his monstrous CotC against a Yonko crew like the Whitebeard pirates? For all we know he could be just like Rayleigh and Kizaru.
> 
> Other than the "rivalry" thing with Mihawk and a few panels, Shanks as a swordsmen isn't absolute, or do you have anymore proof that he is?
> 
> ...



*The point is not whether or not we can say with certainty that his main fighting style is swordsmanship, the point is that based n what we've seen so far that is by far the likeliest option. From him only being shown using a sword, to him being the rival of a confirmed swordsman, to him not having a fruit 12 years ago when he was already great enough to catch Whitebeard eye everything points towards him being only a swordsman. There is a chance this isn't he case, but it's a small one. 

As fo the Haki argument. Haki is not a fighting style in of itself, it is a supplement. Therefore no matter how amazing Shanks' Haki is, if his main weapon is a sword he is weaker than Mihawk.  
*



BartholomewKuma said:


> Simple sir, this is a formal debate not a typical thread where you just get to claim anything you want. It would be a huge misrepresentation if I only interpreted things to agree with my argument when it can be taken more than one way. The proper thing to do would be to show both options and see which one would be more likely based on information we already know. That is how a theoretical model is built. Within that same argument, possessed true information that can't be taken multiple ways. That would  be, Mihawk is the one who has the deficit to make up. Not Shank. In short Shanks is "+1"



*Ummmm, okay. Do what you will but I sincerely advise you to stop fluffing up your poss like that. Most people usually don't like reading too much at once. 
*



> No. Being a Shichibukai doesn't mean Mihawk is automatically weaker. That's just an attempt at reductio ad absurdum and it didn't work. *You ignored everything else and tried to reduce it to being about either being a warlord on emperor. *Take everything else from the post into account and then argue that. There's absolutely no argument presented. We presented a framework for Mihawk and for Shanks. Disprove the framewok at least. It is true that warlords are government weapons. It is true they are protected by the government. It is true Mihawk does his job and resides in Paradise. As for Shanks, It is true he became one of the 4 people ruling the new world. It is true that he has to be capable of standing up to 4 other world powers to maintain that power. He has to be able to balance himself against Whitebeard, Big Mom, Kaido and Black Beard in the New World along with facing the government. Compare that to the trouble free life of a warlord and explain how this doesn't paint a picture that helps illustrate Shanks having the more difficulties. You can try to reduce the argument but at least provide information to back it up.



*Because that's basically what your argument boils down to. the best form of debate is to aim for he trunk of your opponents arguments whenever possible, trying to trim the branches usually doesn't get you very far.

What you did was post a bunch of negative things about being a Schichbukai and then posted a lot of good things about being an Emperor. If you're argument is not that being a Schichbukai implies Mihawk is weaker, what is it? *



> I did compare them to Mihawk. Just not directly but, let's do that right now. We have Shanks clashing with the World's strongest man. We have Shanks stopping a rampaging Blackbeard and crew. We have Shanks stopping a rampaging Akainu. We have Shanks stopping 100k people at war. We have Shanks intercepting Kaido and still making it to the war. Then, we have Mihawk stopped by Diamond Jozu.We have Mihawk being stopped by Vista. Mihawk Stalled by Crocodile and Mihawk cutting an iceberg. Okay.. Go ahead and comare. I placed everything we need in one paragraph. In doing so, Shanks has interacted and clashed against the top powers in the world. Mihawk has been at best, doing nothing to compare. Where do we see Mihawk doing anything against certified world powers?



*You didn't actually compare anything. You listed a few of Shanks feats and then you listed some of Mihawk's, you didn't compare the two to one another. 

But don't worry, I'll play your game. Take a look at Mihawk's feats. A close inspection displays that they actually are not inherently better or worse than Shanks'. There is only way way to compare feats when two characters are of a similar level, and that is via effort. The only way one could argue Shanks feats are better than Mihawk is if he was able to do as much or more with less effort. When all we have are casual or low effort moves from both sides, and neither performed better or worse thn the other, no comparison can be made purely using feats. You have no proof Shanks' attacks would be able to get past Jozu the first time, for example. Nor can you say with any evidence that Vista would not be able to stop Shanks. 

Also, you mentioned things like Mihawk being stopped y Crocodile. Do you not know that it was Crocodile who was blocked by ihawk? *



> Incorrect? Isn't that what we're looking at in this panel? AND if he didn't face them all, may I ask you what does that change about my argument? Regardless if it were 4 or 44, he kept fighting. He wasn't going to stop. *Everything else about that post was true EXCEPT how many people he may have fought*. And at the end of the day, Shanks stopped him in his tracks and Akainu didn't fight for the rest of the day.[



*Luffy was able to defeat a Hody who took 500 ES pills. Everything about that statement is true except how many pills Hody took. One detail makes all the difference. You tried to show how amazing Akainu was by saying he fought so many strong guys at once for so long, however you were wrong and that invalidates much of your argument. There is no doubt Akainu had a great showing of endurance but there's nothing that suggests it was out of the scope of any other high level top-tier. 

As for Shanks blocking Akainu's attack...so? You really thing Shanks blocking an attack meant for Coby is somehow a giant point in his favor? *


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 6, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> My point is that, using the World's Strongest Swordsman argument for Mihawk isn't an end all be all for this debate. We can argue over semantics all day but we'd just being running in circles.
> 
> The possibility of Shanks using other techniques isn't set in stone, nor proven, yes, but what I'm trying to get at is that we can't completely rule out the possibility. There's multiple avenues Oda can use for Shanks fighting style that doesn't have to be limited to pure swordsmanship.
> 
> ...



*Whether or not the title is an end all be all depends on you objective in th debate. If your goal is to prove for sure that Mihawk is stronger, than you are right it cannot be used. however, if your goal is simply to prove that Mihawk being stronger is the likelier option then it's completely conclusive. 

Mihawk may not be stronger than anyone who uses a sword, but he is stronger than anyone in a swordfight. Obviously not including people before Mihaw rose to power, like Roger. 

Mihawk is the strongest swordsman and Shanks has (so far) only been shown to be a swordsman. Therefore the logical option is that based on evidence mihawk is stronger. That may change in th future as we get mor evience, but as for now that's what it is. *



> One of the things that we can look at is what they've actually shown *on panel*.
> 
> Shanks has consistently clashed with some of the strongest characters in the series on equal ground. Whether it's clashing with Whitebeard and splitting the heavens, stopping Kaido who had full intent to sail all the way to Marineford to take Whitebeard's head, clashing with a blood lusted Akainu and making him back down, and forcing the Blackbeard Pirates to retreat who had previously shown fearlessness against the likes of Whitebeard(albeit half dead), Sengoku, and Garp, and had their minds set on sinking Marineford.
> 
> ...



*And the same applies to every feat of strength Shanks has shown. 
*


> So on the basis of what they've shown on panel, Shanks definitely has the edge in that department seeing as Mihawk hasn't fought anyone worth their buck outside of Jozu and Vista who are Yonko underlings. *At this point the burden is on Mihawk to prove he's on the same level of strength as Shanks is.*
> 
> Could Mihawk show something more later on in the manga? Sure. But as of this moment, Shanks definitely has the "+1" in this regard which is why my team and I believe Shanks to have the current edge at this point in the story
> 
> Could that change? Absolutely. Like your teammate said, there's no way to say with absolute certainty who's the stronger between the two with the severe lack of screen time these two characters have, but if you had to say who has the edge, in terms of portrayal, feats, and on panel showings, Shanks would be your guy.



*Does the same apply to Big Mom? Kaidou? Kong? Weaker feats means weaker characters, less feats mean we do't know. Correct answer is neither Shanks or Mihawk have feats where direct comparisons would provide any real benefit as neither have feats where a high amount of effort is involved nor are any of their feats out of the scope of the other bases on what we've seen. 

___

Sorry for the multiple posts, but putting everything in one post is annoying. 
*


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## Impact (Feb 6, 2014)

> =halaros536;49748188]Let's examine some of our respectful opponents' arguments:
> *
> The Yonkou title.
> 
> The Yonkou title cannot be used to say that Shanks should be stronger than Mihawk. The reason for that is, that for someone to be a Yonkou, personal strength is not the only factor. You need to have a great crew, be a good leader among other things. A lone man cannot be a Yonkou even if he is stronger than Whitebeard himself. You cannot make a strength comparison just based on that*.



The yonko title can be interpreted on how one chooses to look at it compared to Mihawk title. That is shanks having the most important one closest to having to do with absolute strength. The yonko is said to have fought WB over territory while he was still alive the man who was said to be the closest to obtaining one piece.  

Now that he has passed shanks is one the main contenders closest to that goal now, being a yonko where Mihawk himself said to be a greater goal than surpassing himself.  Wouldn't one think Mihawk is the one behind Shanks in strength? Shanks is at the place where the strongest are closest to obtain is what Mihawk consider more harder to accomplish than his own title.

*Jozu stopping his attack. *


> According to you, this showed that it doesn't take a yonkou to stop Mihawk's attack. A great observation. For this feat to have any meaning in the comparison between the two though, you would have to provide evidence that Jozu wouldn't have been able to block a Yonko's attack and that only a Yonkou level fighter can do so. Do you have proof for this? Otherwise, this feat is irrelevant to our discussion.
> 
> 
> *Vista clashing with Mihawk and Crocodile distracting him for a moment. *



Well then let's ignore this argument,  and go about both character protrayed towards Whitebeard. Mihawk wanted to see how big the difference between WB power scaled up to their own (warlords) and was not even to get direct response from the man himself.  While shanks on the other hand provoked him with mere words alone for him to equally clashed to his disapproval of shanks behavior towards him.

Its not much but one can say Whitebeard actions towards shanks give us a bit on how he view both characters importance when facing another.  Shanks strength could be the reason he chose to answer with an attack.  If you consider its not really all to argue about their strength but shanks had no need to question himself to see if he could clash equally with the "World Strongest man" where Mihawk himself seemed to wanted to know where he stands with him power wise. Why 



*
Shanks and Mihawk meeting*




> The interpretation about the meaning behind Shanks' and Mihawk's dialogue during their meeting, is your interpretation and nothing more. One could easily reverse this and say that Mihawk was looking down on him. I'm not gonna do it, cause I don't like using silly arguments. Personally, I would recommend dropping this argument, as it cannot be used for either side.



Conceding with this argument. 


*
The title*




> Concering Mihawk's title, I believe that we're dealing with a very simple concept, which is being overanalysed right now. I would like the opposing team to answer a question for me in the third state. Do you guys really think, that Zoro wants to beat Mihawk because that will mean that he is strongest than any other swordsman, or because he just wants to be more "skilled" without necessarily meaning that he's the strongest? I would like you to think about it and then give an honest answer


.

I can the behind whole  overanalysed argument about Mihawk title,  As for your question I'll respond once I get feedback from my team to answer your question since doing it without their approval would be selfish on my behalf. 

That's for my main rebuttal, I'll adress more when the actual debate starts.


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## Kuma (Feb 7, 2014)

*Judge Coruscation: Response to question one.*



> You make here the claim that it is a fact that Mihawk is the one with the debt to settle. You affirm this again in one of your responses to team Mihawk. My question here is: have you confirmed that the meaning of this line is the same in the original, Japanese version? This could be done by asking a reputable translator or personally, if any of you have knowledge of the language, looking at the Japanese original. Because if you don't know for a fact that this is the true meaning in the words, you also can not make the claim that it's a fact that Mihawk is the one with the debt. Correct translations are important when making the claim that something is a fact based on a very specific usage of words which is why I ask this of you.



I won't it's 100% the best translation. I have looked at translations from many sites. One of them post CCC translation and this is the same translation. That is the site i used to post the pane.

*Judge Coruscation: Response to question two.*



> You make here the claim that Mihawk's feat of cutting a multi-kilometer sized iceberg in half with one swing of his sword only shows the same power output as Law, and is only a feat on the same level as Law's. This statement ignores the fact that Law's spatial manipulation and Mihawk's sword swings work very differently. In terms of the "power" put out, the physical energy, cutting an object of that size shows a level of power in one move that Law has never come close to showing. Thus depending on how the word power is defined your statement is not the full truth. The difference in how each result was produced should not be neglected. In terms of ordinary physical power output, Mihawk's feat is of a level that has only been matched by very few individuals in terms of environmental destruction. Described this way, which is also a truth, it paints Mihawk and his feat in a completely different light. My question is why you chose to only describe the feat in terms of the effect and not in terms of the cause? Surely both are important when evaluating a character on an objective level?



True, it does avoid the perimeters and mechanics of how the respective were accomplished. I feel using term "power output" may have been an incorrect as well. It shouldn't be something to measure the level of power being used. But, rather, a comparison to show the end result. It shouldn't sound like "this is only as powerful as Mihawk is" more like "The feat doesn't exceed the capabilities of someone who isn't of he highest echelon" In a sense, the paths the choose are different but the destination is the same.

*Judge Atlantic Storm: Response*



> This is pretty weak as well, since you're looking at it superficially. Both sliced a similar sized object, but Law's wasn't by merit of being as strong or as skilled as Mihawk, it was accomplished through using his Room, which bypasses standard durability. If by power output, you mean kinetic energy, then it should be fairly obvious that Mihawk's feat is by far superior to Law's.



I concede this point and expressed my mistake in the post above this one. It explains better the point I was trying to make. Not one of power. Rather, showing it's not an outcome that can be produced by another who we compare to Shanks.


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## 2Broken (Feb 7, 2014)

In order to make my team's argument more clear let me say this. In this debate we can only say who is most likely to win in a fight not who would actually win, as only Oda can say that. The opening argument was to make the point that Shanks is undoubtedly a swordsman and his primary form of combat is swordplay. Now considering that all the serious combat he has done has been with a sword we can only logically conclude that a fight between the two would come down to swordplay. Add the fact that Mihawk is the World's Greatest Swordsman and it is *more likely* that Mihawk would win the fight. 

To add on to this I have a few advantages that Mihawk would have in a sword fight (besides his title) over Shanks, that I want the judges to consider.



1. Perception Advantage:  Mihawk has shown arguably the best perception in the manga using his unique eyesight.   and      help show that. With the bullet already in flight Mihawk was able to pull out his 7 ft sword and redirect it with the side of the blade, all without turning his head. At Marineford Mihawk was able to see Luffy through smoke and a battlefield of people and attack him with pinpoint accuracy. Mihawk's vision allows him to be a more precise fighter than what is usually possible and at the same time it allows him to   attacks much easier than just about anyone. This is likely why even after becoming the World's Greastest Swordsman, he not only has no noticeable scars from battle, but we have never seen nor even heard of anyone landing a hit on the guy. 

2. Weapon Advantage: Yoru is  to be the greatest sword in the One Piece verse. There is no sword Shanks can use to even the odds and in One Piece a superior sword over time is likely to break an .

3. Arm Advantage: There is no denying that Mihawk and Shanks used to have sword duels as equal, however that was before Mihawk became the WSS and that was before Shanks lost his arm. Shanks was said to not have become any weaker, but there in no denying losing an arm drastically affects ones swordplay. This is further hinted by the fact Mihawk stopped seeking Shanks out to duel. Mihawk wants someone who can challenge him in swordplay, he is not the type to ignore an opponent who can do that just based on the # of arms they have. 

Shank's side wants to say Shanks has something else he hasn't shown that may put him over Mihawk, but that argument is simply too weak an argument here as I could simply say Mihawk could have something he hasn't shown yet as well. Based of what we know now Mihawk is more likely to win this fight.


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## Coruscation (Feb 7, 2014)

> I won't it's 100% the best translation. I have looked at translations from many sites. One of them post CCC translation and this is the same translation. That is the site i used to post the pane.



Could you tell me the name of the site? I expect that the name of the translator might be found in the chapter somewhere. That way, if it should turn out to be one of Stephen's old translations which may be floating around somewhere it would help set your point in stone; otherwise my judgment is that you would reasonably have to recede your assertion that it is an unarguable fact that Mihawk is the one who has a score to settle.



> But, rather, a comparison to show the end result. It shouldn't sound like "this is only as powerful as Mihawk is" more like "The feat doesn't exceed the capabilities of someone who isn't of he highest echelon"



That would still depend on how the feat is looked at, however. You would be correct to say that it doesn't exceed it in terms purely of destruction to the environment; however it exceeds by far and away any shown capability of anyone outside the highest echelon of power (and several of them haven't shown matching power either) to perform that level of destruction with regular physical energy output in a single move. A move which appeared, it should also be emphasized, casual in nature as it was aimed at Luffy.


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## halaros536 (Feb 7, 2014)

Judge Khris' question was adressed to my post , but since PoP answered it I don't think it will be necessary for me to do the same if that's ok. I'll reply to my respectful opponent, Sir Crocodile:



♦Sir Crocodile♦ said:


> The yonko title can be interpreted on how one chooses to look at it compared to Mihawk title. That is shanks having the most important one closest to having to do with absolute strength.* The yonko is said to have fought WB over territory while he was still alive the man who was said to be the closest to obtaining one piece.
> *
> Now that he has passed shanks is one the main contenders closest to that goal now, being a yonko where Mihawk himself said to be a greater goal than surpassing himself.  Wouldn't one think Mihawk is the one behind Shanks in strength? Shanks is at the place where the strongest are closest to obtain is what Mihawk consider more harder to accomplish than his own title.



Nowhere was it said that Shanks personally fought Wb, or that any of the Yonkou did so, if that's what you are implying. If not, then you understand that this is not about personal strength, as much as it is about the Yonkou's strength, plus his enormous crew and legendary names supporting him, his leadership skills and strategic abilities.

I repeat. This cannot be used solidly for such direct strength comparisons between guys who are on the same general level anyways.You might say it is an indication, but you cannot give it more importance than a title, which can be used to compare the two and* refers only to personal strength.* You need something more clear than that.





> Well then let's ignore this argument, and go about both character protrayed towards Whitebeard. Mihawk wanted to see how big the difference between WB power scaled up to their own (warlords) and was not even to get direct response from the man himself. While shanks on the other hand provoked him with mere words alone for him to equally clashed to his disapproval of shanks behavior towards him.
> 
> Its not much but one can say Whitebeard actions towards shanks give us a bit on how he view both characters importance when facing another. Shanks strength could be the reason he chose to answer with an attack. If you consider its not really all to argue about their strength but shanks had no need to question himself to see if he could clash equally with the "World Strongest man" where Mihawk himself seemed to wanted to know where he stands with him power wise. Why



According to the translations that I have in mind, Mihawk said that he wanted to measure the distance, did he not? How do you know that he was talking about power difference? Is there any translation, which makes that clear and is it regarded as the most credible one?

That aside, everyone in the world was weaker than Whitebeard, Shanks included. So Mihawk admitting that there's a difference and wanting to measure it, does not somehow imply that he is weaker than Shanks. You asume that he wasn't waiting a direct response. Excuse me, but I won't bother with that assumption. That aside, Mihawk did what Shanks did. He attacked Wb, just like Shanks did, only he did it from a distance since he was far away.

Furthermore, notice that Jozu had to step in to stop Mihawk's attack, which shows it was a real threat to his captain. Just like Marco stepped when Kizaru was trying to attack Whitebeard, or when Jozu  kept Aokiji from attacking Whitebeard. Mihawk's attack was given  the same spotlight as those of the admirals. If anything, this scene shows that Mihawk, just like the admirals or Shanks, is a threat to Whitebeard. 

Other than that, interpretations, assumptions about what Shanks believed. Again, I would like something more solid, instead of dragging ourselves to this kind of debate.




> Conceding with this argument.



Ok.

*
The title*


> .
> 
> I can the behind whole  overanalysed argument about Mihawk title,  As for your question I'll respond once I get feedback from my team to answer your question since doing it without their approval would be selfish on my behalf.



You replied to this to say that you won't reply yet? You shouldn't have quoted this part at all.

No matter the case, I insist that I'd like a serious answer to this question. 

I'll repost the question:



> Do you guys really think, that Zoro wants to beat Mihawk because that will mean that he is strongest than any other swordsman, or because he just wants to be more "skilled" without necessarily meaning that he's the strongest? I would like you to think about it and then give an honest answer.



And I'll expand it. According to all manga knowledge we have, the one and only way to become the WSS is by beating the WSS. Why is it that beating someone in battle is the one and only requirement for a title, which is not about strength, but about "skill"?


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 7, 2014)

*Rapid Fire Round has ended. Teams have 24 hours to post their summation.*


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## halaros536 (Feb 8, 2014)

*So, to summarize:*

*
- We do not consider that our respectful opponents presented convincing arguments to support their case. And we explain:*​


A)Our opponents conceded that the meating between the two, cannot be held as solid evidence.

B)They dropped the Jozu, Vista and Crocodile point.

C)We consider that we showed how the Yonkou title is not that useful in this strength comparison, when there's a more precise title in hand.

D)Other feats mentioned as favoring Shanks were shown to be irrelevant, or not accurately mentioned. 

E)Other interpretations of certain scenes could not be regarded as solid evidence. We also showed that they can be interpreted in other ways.




*-Our main argument supporting Mihawk was his title and it stood the debate for the following reasons:*​

A) It was made clear that the title cannot refer to anything else other than combat ability.  At the very least, our question concerning the meaning of the title was left unanswered.


B) Since the beginning we asked for any evidence that would indicate the possibility of Shanks being anything else but a swordsman. Such evidence was not presented. On the other hand, we brought up manga panels, which clearly portray the Yonkou as a swordsman.


So, we conclude that based on current manga knowledge, it is more reasonable to choose Mihawk as the strongest of thw two, by virtue of his title and status. We'll know for certain, only when Oda reveals their full capabilities.


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## Impact (Feb 8, 2014)

So to conclude this. 
*
We recognize our opponents gave us a few good points regarding our arguments,  although we feel that the debate itself wasn't different from any other we already had before*.

Although they made some good arguments we feel like some of it didn't quite convinced us more than it should have. 

-One and foremost is Mihawk title, We feel this argument was the same as  our own and can't fully bring anything of real merit to either side because of our objective views of both.

- Panels regarding their meeting and such also felt like going around in circles which didn't change our overall opinion of the matter regarding interpretation. 

>As for our main argument shanks portrayal in comparison to Mihawk

Shanks portrayal has played a huge part in in the debate and the arguments did not convince us of his current strength is equal nor less than Mihawk. 

The points for both characters remained strong, but some arguments were never really addressing other points than it should have which was regarding the strength of shanks and how Mihawk could be stronger than him without using the title as an end argument for a factor.


That's it for our conclusion,  which is why we still think Shanks is overall the strongest of the two.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 9, 2014)

*Judges may now render their verdicts. Please explain how you came about your decision based on the cases presented by both teams. Your post must demonstrate knowledge of both sides arguments. 

Reminder, you are voting for which side presented the most convincing argument. Nothing more. Nothing less. *


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 10, 2014)

*Judge's Vote
*

As is with the actual on-going debate, I feel this particular competition was also a close one. But I did feel that it never did bring anything new to the table, almost all points were withdrawn, especially from Team Shanks which should logically have more points in their arsenal. 

My system of voting is based on how well teams held on to their arguments. Now it's true that Team Mihawk only had one solid point at their hand, which was the "World's Strongest/Greatest Swordsmen" argument, but they quite amazingly held strong to it. They replied to the rebuttals and put them down with cold hard facts. I did however see some weak rebuttals from them, as Shanks purely being a swordsmen from a few panel can't really convince me and how his Haki usage is somehow irrelevant in a debate of two really strong characters. Team Shanks did see some great moments as well, the way a single user diplomatically stood his grounds even when their teammates conceded to more than one point really impressed me. However as I stated before, Team Shanks did concede to a lot of points of their opening argument, that either showed that they didn't 100% believe in it or that it wasn't convincing to begin with. 

Personally I still think they're equals and this thread hasn't change how I feel about the two. But overall I'll give it to Team Mihawk for debunking every rebuttal of their strongest opening argument. They convinced me that there's really no way around the title argument, even though I believe Shanks will not turn out to be a Swordsman. 

My vote goes to: *Team Mihawk *


Most Valuable Debater: *♦Young Master♦* of Team Shanks[1]

_[1]This is my personal vote and not an official one_





Good job everybody... And I can't wait for the next thread


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## Soca (Feb 10, 2014)

*Judge's Vote*

So after carefully reading both arguments my verdict will go to _*Team Mihawk*_

*Reasons*

As judge Khris stated even though they only had one argument to roll on Team Mihawk definitely presented their surprisingly. Not to say that Team Shanks didn't do so as well but I think they could've put up a much better fight if they stuck to some of their arguments like with the Yonko title being used  as a strength comparison. If pushed more that definitely could've been a game changer but still it was pretty good while it lasted. 

So again my vote: *Team Mihawk.*


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## RF (Feb 11, 2014)

Team Mihawk has this in the bag as far as I'm concerned.

While they had a weak start, with only one argument to lean on, they presented it amazingly well backed up with a lot of evidence from the manga, and debunked just about everything the opposite team had to offer. Team Shanks could have done a lot better in my opinion, and their attempt to push through the idea that Mihawk's title only refers to skill and not overall strength was really stupid. 

So yeah, going with team Mihawk.


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## Coruscation (Feb 11, 2014)

Vote: team Mihawk.

The primary reason behind my vote is brevity and concreteness. Some of the points that team Shanks brought out were very valid and could have been used to push a powerful counterargument - such as the value of his Haki - but I felt that there was a bit much fluff, several things brought up which only carried ostensible weight on a surface level but faltering when asked for concrete descriptions of how they indicate superiority, and too much of an emphasis on the certainly very impressive feats and portrayal of Shanks without really getting to how those feats and that portrayal can be concretely said to imply a superiority over Mihawk. Team Mihawk were more to-the-point and emphasized appropriately the hard core of the disputed points, the parts that are ultimately the most decisive. It was nonetheless a good and civil effort on the part of both sides and I look forward to the next installment.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 11, 2014)

*Congratulations to Team Mihawk. You each get five points. Thanks to both teams and the judges. *


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 11, 2014)

*Good game, young gays.*


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