# Fate Grand Order Battle Royale



## ~Avant~ (Jul 2, 2017)

Gilgamesh vs Rama vs. Enkidu vs Ozymandias vs. Arjuna vs. Karna vs. Solomon

Who's the strongest servant?

No CCC bullshit


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## Sablés (Jul 2, 2017)

>Solomon
>Has next to no usable feats.

Why do people keep doing this?


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## Sablés (Jul 2, 2017)

That aside..

Gilgamesh >= Enkidu/Karna >= Ozymandias > Arjuna > Rama


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 2, 2017)

Didn't expect Arjuna to be above Rama


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## Fang (Jul 2, 2017)

~Avant~ said:


> Gilgamesh vs Rama vs. Enkidu vs Ozymandias vs. Arjuna vs. Karna vs. Solomon
> 
> Who's the strongest servant?
> 
> No CCC bullshit



>Solomon
No point in using him yet although he is the Grand Caster for a reason.
>Ozymandias
Took three high tier Servants working together to beat him.
>Gilgamesh
If he isn't being retarded or jobbing he'd probably take this.
>Enkidu
Won't beat Gil or Ozzy. 
>Rama
Nah.
>Karna
Probably third string after Gil and Ozymandias, also equaled by Arjuna canonically.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Qinglong (Jul 2, 2017)

Gilgamesh Karna and Enkidu are around the same level, but Enkidu is unlikely to beat Karna w/ Armor and the FGO version won't beat Gil (his Enuma Elish does not have CF backing like in SF)

Ozy would lose to Gil cause Enuma

Ozy vs Karna depends on if you think VS can nuke Ramesseum Tentryis, if it can he can win since that shuts down Ozy's regen and most of his power, if it can't he will eventually lose to Dendera spam

Karna would eventually kill Arjuna if they fought 1v1 no interruptions (Arjuna admits fighting Karna is the same as accepting death for him)

Rama is right below them (he is called equal to Arjuna IIRC but he lost some power from entering the Saber class IIRC)

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 2, 2017)

This is all extremely information


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 2, 2017)

How strong is Lion King Arthur?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 2, 2017)

Dumpster fire delet this tier because it's not even Artoria anymore

It's the spear.


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 2, 2017)

So.... Where would that rank her compared to the other Six?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 2, 2017)

Below Grand Class 

Below Gil
Above Ozy
Probably around Karna tier but Karna >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Her due to VS

Reactions: Informative 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 2, 2017)

Scatach vs Milfturia would be an interseting fight


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 2, 2017)

Lol No

It really wouldn't be


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 2, 2017)

Why not ? I'd watch it..though they probably would'nt be able to kill eachother


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## Qinglong (Jul 2, 2017)

it wouldn't be an interesting fight if Ozy with a grail (although he probably would not have used it) admitted he couldn't take her alone


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## Sablés (Jul 2, 2017)

~Avant~ said:


> How strong is Lion King Arthur?



Ozy with a grail didn't think he could beat her.
Needed to break his saint graph and fire 10 shots of Dendera just to get passed her barrier. Then had Tentyris wrecked after she nuked him.
Strong enough to summon the KoTR (Alive Gil tried the same under better conditions and nearly fell into a coma iirc. It took him a long time to regain his strength regardless.) and put Gawain into a clinic with the amount of energy described as "the tips of her fingers".
Gawain implies King Hassan's display of parrying Max Galatine with his scimitar made him equal to her.


She's stronger than Karna, Enkidu, Ozymandias and probably Gil too. However Karna has Vasavi Shatki which at this point is only second to Ars Almadel Salomonis in raw destructive power. It would even kill Titan Altera, Lion King has no chance if it her. Her barrier might hold enough for her to survive though.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 2, 2017)

So King Hassan is in this tier too? Damn, Gil's made some rivals finally.


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## Sablés (Jul 2, 2017)

Wut

If that's taking my post into account, that's not what I said. Gawain has no idea how to accurately gauge KH's strength, he's just making an estimate based on him casually overpowering Galatine with physical strength alone. How he stacks against LK is inconclusive but I wouldn't bet against the old man after what he did to Tiamat.

King Hassan isn't an ordinary servant anyway since he uses a buffed container other servants don't get. He's top-tier (all crown servants are) even without a Grand Saint-Graph but he's above Gil and the others' tier with it. Non-Grand KH is featless like Solomon.

If we're including anomalies like him, you might as well use Enkidu with the planet as his master too. In which case, he has A+ rank in every stat and is similar to Arcueid...yeah


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 2, 2017)

What I mean to say is that: Gilgamesh, Enkidu, Karna, Arjuna, Rama, Ozymandias, King Hassan, Lion King Arthur, Merlin, and Solomon by scaling. With varying degrees of variables given the effects of some noble phantasms and overall stats, should all be around the same level of pedigree.


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## Qinglong (Jul 2, 2017)

Ozy would most likely not have used the Grail Regardless because it was tainted

He goes back on this because you wanted his help to fight Lion King and he's like "okay well prove to me you actually stand a chance" "but we've beaten Demon Gods before" "that's scrub tier compared to the Lion Ling, let me show you a real God" and then he goes Amon Ra and keeps restoring until he eats Buddhist Palm because Buddhism and Hinduism OP pls nerf


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## Crimson King (Jul 2, 2017)

That barrier still tanked 10 shots from his NP. Each shot was suppose to have the heat of a solar flare, and can vaporize everyone in a city instantly.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 3, 2017)

Non-Grand King Hassan was the one who fucked up Tiamat on his own when she got chucked into the underworld.

He even says so himself

"The Title of Grand means nothing to me. O mother goddess of the earth, let your wings be deprived from you by Heaven'd Decree"

So we know that KH can at least go toe to toe with a Beast Class if the conditions are right.

He probably can't tango with something like Goetia but I wouldn't put it past the old man to be on an even playing field with divine spirits even after shedding his Grand Class container.


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## Sablés (Jul 3, 2017)

King Hassan lost the title of Grand Servant but his Saint graph was still that of a Grand.

He sacrificed all of that power to deliver the blow that gave Tiamat the concept of death. At the very least, he states that while his strength is depowered, his assassin technique remains the same. Basically, the skills that allowed him to sneak into Ozy's temple and decapitate him remains.

The quote he gave in Babylon was something something "I threw it away at the primordial sea". Primordial sea = Tiamat.

It was vague but Nasu elaborated on it recently and confirmed it.



> Nasu: Personally, I feel that joining Chaldea means that you must throw away the right to being a Grand that exists for the sake of saving all mankind. Still, even after discarding that position, the strength of King Hassan’s Saint Graph itself is still Grand-class. It doesn’t mean that once he loses his Grand position and becomes a normal Assassin, his Saint Graph would immediately lose power. So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 3, 2017)

yeah that's why I said he can tango with Beast Classes if the conditions are right

He's still far and above beyond Normal Servants even when depowered to hell and back.

Very very likely in the Top Servant class along with Altera, Karna, Gil etc etc etc.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Qinglong (Jul 3, 2017)

We all know he's bones underneath so he didn't have to deal with the poison


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 3, 2017)

Psssh

more like superior Allahu ackbar genes

He's become inmune to unconventional warfare tactics

But he's still a baller ass grandpa


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## Kurou (Jul 3, 2017)

Servants seems pretty ridiculous now

How do TA stack up to them now?


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## Amol (Jul 3, 2017)

It feels so weird to see Rama as character. It would be like to have Jesus as character for a christian I guess.
Is Rama stronger than Arjuna and Karna atleast?
Because he should be if you go by mythology. Rama is an actual incarnation of a God while other two are just exceptional humans who received gifts from Gods.
It should be Rama >>>>>>>>>>>> Arjuna>= Karna. In canon fight Arjuna defeated Karna though it was hella close.
P.S.: I am talking purely about Hindu mythology here. I have no idea about characters.


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## Qinglong (Jul 3, 2017)

Amol said:


> It feels so weird to see Rama as character. It would be like to have Jesus as character for a christian I guess.
> Is Rama stronger than Arjuna and Karna atleast?
> Because he should be if you go by mythology. Rama is an actual incarnation of a God while other two are just exceptional humans who received gifts from Gods.
> It should be Rama >>>>>>>>>>>> Arjuna>= Karna. In canon fight Arjuna defeated Karna though it was hella close.
> P.S.: I am talking purely about Hindu mythology here. I have no idea about characters.



As servants no

Rama had to nerf himself for various reasons (read: meeting Sita). He is stated to be around Arjuna level in his current incarnation IIRC. Karna is the strongest of the three and Arjuna wouldn't have won if the gods weren't helping him + shooting him in the back according to secondary info.


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## Sablés (Jul 3, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Servants seems pretty ridiculous now
> 
> How do TA stack up to them now?


Still pretty highly.

Using AT: Earth as the cap and she'd be the equivalent of a major arc boss Post-Extra games like Beasts and Sefar,  If we assume TA's are comparable to or stronger than Divine Spirits on average then that's still too much for normal servants as in GO, Divine Spirits (Ron and Quetz) and above still regularly slap their shit. Although you could say those two are above average DS anyway.

Exceptional servants like King Hassan can tango with DS and beat them since his full-power isn't miles off the Beasts.

Karna can straight up kill a TA/God thanks to Vasavi Shatki's recent feats/descriptions - he just has to be able to pull it off.  Altera's Teardrop: Photon Ray channel's Divine Spirit Mars/Ares' salt and directs an attack from them at whatever she wants. This is one of the clearest examples of how OP servants have become.

Artoria/Arthur with Full power Excalibur is up there too since it can one-shot Sefar.

EDIT: Add in Solomon to this and his NP is above anyone here, he just has to be able to use it.


Way I see it, Grand servants are in that ballpark. Top-class servants can be as well under the right conditions.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 3, 2017)

There's also Cu who was the first confirmed servant that might be able to kill a TA,so the notion of a servant being able to mess with a TA isn't a new one. Too bad he is gonna get scattered around the pavement before he has the chance to get close

With that being said ..
Make TA relevant again Nasu!


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## Sablés (Jul 3, 2017)

How servants stack might go farther down the rabbit hole than I thought.

Extella mats say Excalibur is on the level of divine spirit thaumaturgy, and well, quite a few top-tier NPs scale to that. 

Arash cancelled out Ron with Stella and it likely isn't as strong as Dendera or Proto-Excalibur. Ron had crossed a large distance so the energy would have diminished. The KoTR still think that's a stupidly impressive feat though.

Then we have the Alter Egos whose essence is composed of DS and are still technically servants.

You could make a case that the NPs of top servants are Divine Spirit-class in power.


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## Qinglong (Jul 3, 2017)

Arash canceled out Ron blast with Stella

Ozy fired Dendera multiple times into ron powered barrier and had to ram RT into it to break it

???


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## Sablés (Jul 3, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Arash canceled out Ron blast with Stella
> 
> Ozy fired Dendera multiple times into ron powered barrier and had to ram RT into it to break it
> 
> ???



The barrier is stronger than the beam.

Dendera needed CS Stella and Proto-Excalibur to overpower  just one in fragments.


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## Qinglong (Jul 3, 2017)

Okay like wow I totally forgot he can adjust Dendera but Ozy states Clear Lion King can't use Light Of Judgment while maintaining the barrier/tower

so it's more believable they require similar power output


E: going by roman's exposition the power of the Light of Judgment fired on Arash was 1 magnitude greater than a top level NP


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## Sablés (Jul 3, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Okay like wow I totally forgot he can adjust Dendera but Ozy makes it straight up Clear Lion King can't use Light Of Judgment while maintaining the barrier
> 
> so it's more believable they require similar power output


Was that how it worked?

Instead of alternating power from beam-shield, I thought she couldn't use both simultaneously because of a logic issue. As in, if the shield is up, how would the beam pass through?


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## Qinglong (Jul 3, 2017)

He mentions the tower itself and after hitting it realizes it also had a barrier


I am more inclined to go with the former interpetation


EDIT: If it was something like Avalon sure but I don't think it was ever described as functioning in such a fashion.


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## Xhominid (Jul 3, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Artoria/Arthur with Full power Excalibur is up there too since it can one-shot Sefar.



Speaking of that, was the Excalibur having all of those ridiculous commands on it to unleash it's full power a retcon or was it there from the beginning? Because I don't remember any of the Fate Stay Night routes or anything saying such.

I find it funny that he's trying(failing but trying) to make Excalibur still stack up with the ridiculousness of the Servants now. When Rhon basically makes Excalibur look like a joke, I think it's time to hang it up and keep Artoria as a Lancer from now on(even if she goes nuts)


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## Qinglong (Jul 3, 2017)

Excalibur's power being sealed was first mentioned for the Proto version

then in Artoria's interlude in GO she states her Excalibur also has seals on it varying on who it is used on

All we really know from Archimede's dialogue in Extella is someone with Excalibur one shot Sefar when it showed up in the past, but we don't know who, and we don't know for certain if Artoria can actually use Excalibur in this fashion.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 3, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Speaking of that, was the Excalibur having all of those ridiculous commands on it to unleash it's full power a retcon or was it there from the beginning? Because I don't remember any of the Fate Stay Night routes or anything saying such.


It wasn't. It was added in Extella


Xhominid said:


> When Rhon basically makes Excalibur look like a joke


What ? One shoting Sefar is a joke ? 


Xhominid said:


> I think it's time to hang it up and keep Artoria as a Lancer from now on(even if she goes nuts)


Nasu getting rid of Saber Artoria..Never.


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## Fang (Jul 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Nasu getting rid of Saber Artoria..Never.



Nasu isn't the one obsessed with Saber, its Takeuchi.

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## Xhominid (Jul 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> What ? One shoting Sefar is a joke ?



One shotting Sefar isn't a joke...breaking all of the commands to REACH that level of power? That's the joke.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 3, 2017)

Fang said:


> Nasu isn't the one obsessed with Saber, its Takeuchi.


Even so..she's one of his most popular characters. Replacing her with cold killing machine Saber..idk, doesn't seem like a good idea


Xhominid said:


> One shotting Sefar isn't a joke...breaking all of the commands to REACH that level of power? That's the joke


That's true, but she needs to stay relevant so..
The point was Rhon doesn't make look Exaclibur like a joke when it one -shotted Sefar. If anything it's a little better than what Rhon showed, ridicoulous though it may be.


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## Sablés (Jul 3, 2017)

Think Nasu's said he's done writing Artoria anyway.

She has little presence in Extella and barely shows up in GO. Final battle with Solomon doesn't even involve her.


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## Sablés (Jul 3, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> One shotting Sefar isn't a joke...breaking all of the commands to REACH that level of power? That's the joke.


Ron has seals too...


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## Xhominid (Jul 3, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Ron has seals too...



The hell man? So Artoria doesn't have any weapon in her arsenal that isn't locked by some type of seal she must break first? I would not be surprised if they retcon Caliburn to have seals on it too...


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 3, 2017)

Caliburn has seals on it

Goes up to excalibur level when wielded by someone with "qualifications of a king"

Otherwise it's massively weaker


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## Billabong122 (Jul 3, 2017)

How strong Proto Arthur compare to top tier servant like Gilgamesh , Ozzy , Karna , Lion King , and Scathach .


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## Xhominid (Jul 3, 2017)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> *Caliburn has seals on it*
> 
> Goes up to excalibur level when wielded by someone with "qualifications of a king"
> 
> Otherwise it's massively weaker



Man, I'm done with this...

I know that other NP usually have some pretty messed up requirements to use(Karna sacrifices his armor and earrings and it's a one use), but the seals seem so freaking inconvenient even compared to those.


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## Qinglong (Jul 3, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Man, I'm done with this...
> 
> I know that other NP usually have some pretty messed up requirements to use(Karna sacrifices his armor and earrings and it's a one use), but the seals seem so freaking inconvenient even compared to those.



calling it a seal is just layman's terming it

it's more of a restriction of use like how some NPs can't show their true power unless wielded by their proper owners


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## Mabel Gleeful (Jul 3, 2017)

Amol said:


> It feels so weird to see Rama as character. It would be like to have Jesus as character for a christian I guess.
> Is Rama stronger than Arjuna and Karna atleast?
> Because he should be if you go by mythology. Rama is an actual incarnation of a God while other two are just exceptional humans who received gifts from Gods.
> It should be Rama >>>>>>>>>>>> Arjuna>= Karna. In canon fight Arjuna defeated Karna though it was hella close.
> P.S.: I am talking purely about Hindu mythology here. I have no idea about characters.


Isn't Arjuna a partial avatar of Vishnu as well? I recall the Mahabhatara saying he is Nara of the Nara-Narayana pair.


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## Kurou (Jul 3, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Man, I'm done with this...
> 
> I know that other NP usually have some pretty messed up requirements to use(Karna sacrifices his armor and earrings and it's a one use), but the seals seem so freaking inconvenient even compared to those.




I mean its fate. It wouldnt be chuuni if everything didnt have a seal or restriction on its "TREU PWOER"


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## Kurou (Jul 3, 2017)

True facts

Saber's full name is Artoria Pendragon Of The Darkness Flame

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 3, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Man, I'm done with this...
> 
> I know that other NP usually have some pretty messed up requirements to use(Karna sacrifices his armor and earrings and it's a one use), but the seals seem so freaking inconvenient even compared to those.



Did you forget Artoria's initial descriptions when it came to Excalibur in FSN during the Fate route? Excalibur is a powerful as fuck weapon. So powerful that it can raze the earth and scorch it for god knows how long. And the one time you see her use it, was on the top of a skyscraper where no one and no thing can get hit by it except for Medusa.

Otherwise you get a literal scorched earth situation. And as of Extella, powerful enough to one shot a world destroying alien. So, its not exactly unusual or unneeded when the factors exists.

Besides, someone like Arthur can unlock Excalibur to whatever specific seal level he wants.


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## Xhominid (Jul 3, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> calling it a seal is just layman's terming it
> 
> it's more of a restriction of use like how some NPs can't show their true power unless wielded by their proper owners



Yeah but that's kinda nuts even compared to those typical restrictions...



Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Did you forget Artoria's initial descriptions when it came to Excalibur in FSN during the Fate route? Excalibur is a powerful as fuck weapon. So powerful that it can raze the earth and scorch it for god knows how long. And the one time you see her use it, was on the top of a skyscraper where no one and no thing can get hit by it except for Medusa.
> 
> Otherwise you get a literal scorched earth situation. And as of Extella, powerful enough to one shot a world destroying alien. So, its not exactly unusual or unneeded when the factors exists.
> 
> Besides, someone like Arthur can unlock Excalibur to whatever specific seal level he wants.



For one, I know Excalibur was always stated to be a powerful as fuck weapon, but it was obviously toned down little by little even with the presence of Ea and then going on more and more with the series and with Apocrypha and especially Grand Order giving us beings that would make Excalibur in the Fate Route look like crap.

Secondly, Extella actually brought Excalibur back to the forefront by having that be what defeated Sefar, a being that otherwise can curbstomp gods with the best of them. Altera is still scared shitless of the blade despite having the Sword of Mars, a weapon that she took from Ares/Mars after she killed him and it in and of itself is a broken ass weapon and NP.

Thirdly, That's Arthur, can Artoria forcibly unlock Excalibur's power or she's stuck to obeying the unlock conditions.


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## Sablés (Jul 3, 2017)

We knew all that since GoA which was before GO and Extella. The latter by over a year.



Xhominid said:


> Secondly, Extella actually brought Excalibur back to the forefront by having that be what defeated Sefar, a being that otherwise can curbstomp gods with the best of them. Altera is still scared shitless of the blade despite having the Sword of Mars, a weapon that she took from Ares/Mars after she killed him and it in and of itself is a broken ass weapon and NP.


This is mainly because she fucks over beings with intelligence.

But that ability doesn't work on divine constructs like the war god's sword, which allowed him to put up a fight against her. Sefar didn't necessarily fight alone either, she converts shit into minions like Tiamat does with Llahmu iirc.

That was probably why Excalibur was made and killed Sefar/gave Altera PTSD. Makes sense given that she was randomly OHKO'd by a human after walking all over Gods.


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## Xhominid (Jul 3, 2017)

Sablés said:


> We knew all that since GoA which was before GO and Extella. The latter by over a year.



Damn, I got way too much to catch up on then...



Sablés said:


> This is mainly because she fucks over beings with intelligence.



Wait...did I miss something playing Extella(To be fair, I haven't played it since I beat the story mode...)? How exactly does Sefar fucks over beings with intelligence?



Sablés said:


> But that ability doesn't work on divine constructs like the war god's sword, which allowed him to put up a fight against her. Sefar didn't necessarily fight alone either, she converts shit into minions like Tiamat does with Llahmu iirc.



Yeah I remember that she can do that which was why her invasion was so devastating but I doubt her creations could do real damage against the Gods compared to her.



Sablés said:


> That was probably why Excalibur was made and killed Sefar/gave Altera PTSD. Makes sense given that she was randomly OHKO'd by a human after walking all over Gods.



True. Apparently she never saw the attacking coming at all and only saw the flash itself.


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## BehemothV2 (Jul 3, 2017)

Fucking Balmung outranks Artoria's Excalibur nowadays.

Though GO Strengthening quests probably aren't a great source of Lore.


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 3, 2017)

I love what this thread has become lol


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 3, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Wait...did I miss something playing Extella(To be fair, I haven't played it since I beat the story mode...)? How exactly does Sefar fucks over beings with intelligence?



Because she fucking wipes out civilizations the second they've been too advanced

Civilizations = information = good fucking food for her as a Titan since she absorbs mana and the information from that makes her bigger and stronger


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 4, 2017)

Arthur can't exactly unlock the seals whenever he wants

He needs to fulfill the conditions beforehand and then the seals unlock

Mordred's being "This is a battle worth staking your life on"
Lancelot's "The enemy is not a fairy/elemental"
Bedivere's "This is an honorable fight"
Gareth's was "The opponent is stronger than you IIRC"
I don't remember Galahad's off the top of my head but it probably had something to do with Arthur not fighting for a selfish reason
and Arthur's had something to do with protecting something IIRC.


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## Xhominid (Jul 4, 2017)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Because she fucking wipes out civilizations the second they've been too advanced
> 
> Civilizations = information = good fucking food for her as a Titan since she absorbs mana and the information from that makes her bigger and stronger



Well shit, you didn't need to be such an ass about it but I remember that part now.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 4, 2017)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Arthur can't exactly unlock the seals whenever he wants
> 
> He needs to fulfill the conditions beforehand and then the seals unlock
> 
> ...


i know Arthur's was "battle is for the sake of the world/saving the world"


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## kluang (Jul 4, 2017)

Always wondered how Archer class Heracles will do against Gil


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## EGSage (Jul 4, 2017)

kluang said:


> Always wondered how Archer class Heracles will do against Gil


Read Fate/strange Fake


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 4, 2017)

kluang said:


> Always wondered how Archer class Heracles will do against Gil


He strong enoough to mess with Gill without Ea and says that he needs Ea to be equal with him. Herc probably falls to full-powered EE .
CCC Gill stomps him regardless.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 4, 2017)

Strange Fake is shit and Alcides was a mistake

Reactions: Funny 1


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## EGSage (Jul 4, 2017)

True enough. Poor Herc forever getting shit summoned.


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## Fang (Jul 4, 2017)

>tfw even with all that OP shit unless Arturia is amped by Rhondy and powered up by the Grail is the only way she's more powerful then Lancelot Knight of Knights


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## Xhominid (Jul 4, 2017)

Fang said:


> >tfw even with all that OP shit unless Arturia is amped by Rhondy and powered up by the Grail is the only way she's more powerful then Lancelot Knight of Knights



With the ability for him to make anything a NP just by grabbing it...
If he wasn't a Berserker...I can fully believe that.


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## Fang (Jul 4, 2017)

It has nothing to do with being a berserker. Lancelot is the strongest Knight of the Round Table which includes Arthur herself. He has EAM because he's the greatest hero of his age.


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## Xhominid (Jul 4, 2017)

Fang said:


> It has nothing to do with being a berserker. Lancelot is the strongest Knight of the Round Table which includes Arthur herself. He has EAM because he's the greatest hero of his age.



Considering the amount of wanking Lancelot gets in the actual myth, I can believe Nasu went that route.


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## Fang (Jul 4, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Considering the amount of wanking Lancelot gets in the actual myth, I can believe Nasu went that route.



Its not wank when the French addition to the Arthurian tales is the most popular version of it. And if any knight is wanked its Galahad.


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## Xhominid (Jul 4, 2017)

Fang said:


> Its not wank when the French addition to the Arthurian tales is the most popular version of it. And if any knight is wanked its Galahad.



Well there are alot of different versions of the myth but Lancelot is pretty wanked as well as Galahad. I just hear alot more of Lancelot than Galahad.


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## Fang (Jul 4, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Well there are alot of different versions of the myth but Lancelot is pretty wanked as well as Galahad. I just hear alot more of Lancelot than Galahad.



Galahad is literally written as the perfect knight who obtains the Grail, doesn't use it and goes to heaven, that's his character in a nutshell. Lancelot is written and treated as a physically and martially greatest knight whose fundamentally flawed and ends up being one of the reasons why Camelot goes down. And Galahad is Lancelot's son who gets to surpass his father. If there's a self-insert stu who exists in Arthurian mythology, Galahad would be their name.

Anyway in Type-Moon as In terms of abilities, Lancelot is the best. That's how both the franchise has always treated him. Even his F/GO profile states he's the strongest and greatest of the knights of the round table.

A Gawain using Numerals to boost himself couldn't beat and was badly wounded by a holding back Lancelot, and only died because Mordred took advantage of Gawain's weakened state to kill him. Same Mordred couldn't beat a holding back Arash whose seen as equal to Tristan. Not too mention Agravain had to drug himself massively and land a cheap shot on Lancelot and still ended up dying with his guts spilled out even after fatally wounding Lancelot.

Either way, Arthurian tales has Lancelot as one of the main knights with Gawain, Mordred, Arthur, and several others.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Sablés (Jul 4, 2017)

Lancelot is the strongest KoTR.

Gawain is one of the main knights in base. Numeral of the saint triples his abilities but even with it, he is only equal to Lancelot.

That should give you an idea of how much stronger Lancelot is than the others on average. in other words, he's overpowered.


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## Fang (Jul 4, 2017)

>yfw a French created Arthurian knight is the most popular knight in a English folklore story

Reactions: Funny 1


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 4, 2017)

Reminder that modred chopped off part of an Arturia using Rhongo's head and stabbed out one of her eyes before she bit the dust.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fang (Jul 4, 2017)

Just goes to show how both Arturia and Mordred are shitters.


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## EGSage (Jul 4, 2017)

Meh, Gawain is the most shit because he's shit.


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## Sablés (Jul 4, 2017)

I've gained a better opinion of Gawain since he dropped the boyscout act in the CCC event


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## Fang (Jul 4, 2017)

Murdering his sister for Lion King Arthur improved him?


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## Qinglong (Jul 4, 2017)

well she basically wanted to die

but gawain is still pretty much a shit


ironically being a shit is better than the boyscout stint he pulled in extra so yeah


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## Crimson King (Jul 5, 2017)

Gawain needs to get punched more


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 5, 2017)

How does Alexander (not-iksander), compare to Cu Chulain, Emiya, and Siegfried?


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## Sablés (Jul 5, 2017)

~Avant~ said:


> How does Alexander (not-iksander), compare to Cu Chulain


EDIT: The kid's basically a much weaker Iskandar with little concrete feats. He'd lose to just about everyone you listed.

Cu is probably the more dangerous servant overall. High stats, battle continuation and one of the most broken NPs.


> Emiya


EMIYA is average.

His NPs might allow him to beat some under certain conditions (took out several of Herc's lives...somehow) but usually in a straight fight, he's fairly harmless as evidenced by how easily Saber and Cu can overpower him.



> Siegfried


Siegfried is above the KoTR and like, a top-tier servant.  Definitely above Iskandar.

AoF is broken, his sword skill is on-par with Karna's and Balmung is basically demonic excalibur (regular)


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 5, 2017)

AoF nerfs siegfried more than it helps him

Just saying


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## Qinglong (Jul 5, 2017)

Nah siegfried is like bottom of the tops at best

he lost his reactor core as a servant and his MRES has been disabled

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Sablés (Jul 5, 2017)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> AoF nerfs siegfried more than it helps him
> 
> Just saying


How? It makes A rank attacks hit like paper, has a defense modifier against proper HS NPs and can be enhanced via combo with Balmung.

Or is the weakness of his back that big of a deal?


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## Qinglong (Jul 5, 2017)

losing the reactor core screws him over badly


as does being vulnerable to magic


and yeah cause his back must be exposed he is doomed fighting Iskander


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## Sablés (Jul 5, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Nah siegfried is like bottom of the tops at best
> 
> he lost his reactor core as a servant and his MRES has been disabled


For me , it was either the strongest high or weakest top.

But Extella introduces Iskandar and Jeanne as top servants so I went with the latter.


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## Qinglong (Jul 5, 2017)

Jeanne can summon dragons, she just shouldn't be doing that

Iskander's chariot + IH is actually a really good combo


his bulls are an existence almost on par with Pegasus


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 5, 2017)

Sablés said:


> How? It makes A rank attacks hit like paper, has a defense modifier against proper HS NPs and can be enhanced via combo with Balmung.
> 
> Or is the weakness of his back that big of a deal?


Loses MRES
Balmung takes nerfs when he's taking defensive actions (read: always)
Huge weakspot on his back


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## Sablés (Jul 5, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> losing the reactor core screws him over badly
> 
> 
> as does being vulnerable to magic
> ...





GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Loses MRES
> Balmung takes nerfs when he's taking defensive actions (read: always)
> Huge weakspot on his back


Didn't know about the first two. I agree.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 5, 2017)

NVM on the losing damage part, it actually buffs his defense.

But yeah losing MRES fucks him over hard.


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## Fang (Jul 5, 2017)

Don't see how Siegfried at his best is above top tier KotRT.


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 5, 2017)

So Siegfried could hand both versions of Lancelot an L?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 5, 2017)

Lance would have a better time vs Siegfried than Artoria would, for obvious reasons


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## Fang (Jul 5, 2017)

~Avant~ said:


> So Siegfried could hand both versions of Lancelot an L?



Not quite.


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## Sablés (Jul 5, 2017)

Sieg stalemated Karna in melee for hours and was considered a rival by him in Apo. Achilles despite being clearly more powerful was cockblocked too.

A proper NP would fail to significantly damage him because of AoF and Balmung is up there with their best sword-beams. Only  problem is that it reveals his weakness but even this is something that's difficult to capitalize on without a way to get behind him. See fighting off Karna for how diff that is to manage.

Lancelot and Gawain(NoTS) could put up a good fight. Not the others.


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 5, 2017)

By that description, he should be in the same league as Rama


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## Fang (Jul 5, 2017)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Lance would have a better time vs Siegfried than Artoria would, for obvious reasons



Man its still hilarious how even with a shit tier master like Kariya, who was constantly dying because of Zouken with his magic circuits fucked up to sustain Lancelot, whose Arondight is so ridiculous it could only be used by Lancey in Berserker state for 4 minutes was absolutely rag-dolling Arturia casually


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## Fang (Jul 5, 2017)

Fang said:


> Not quite.



Also to add. Siegfried has a Dragon attribute. Lancelot kills Dragon types.


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## Sablés (Jul 5, 2017)

Where is Lance's bonus against dragons said again? For the life of me, I've never been able to find that info.

That said, affinity is unquantifiable without a proper metric. It helps...but how much?

Enkidu is super-effective to divinity but that didn't stop Heracles from ripping it apart and his divinity stat is at the highest shown level without getting into the Gods/Gilgamesh


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## Fang (Jul 5, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Where is Lance's bonus against dragons said again? For the life of me, I've never been able to find that info.
> 
> That said, affinity is unquantifiable without a proper metric. It helps...but how much?
> 
> Enkidu is super-effective to divinity but that didn't stop Heracles from ripping it apart and his divinity stat is at the highest shown level without getting into the Gods/Gilgamesh



It comes from the F/Z handbook on Lancelot's profile: _*Due to the legend in which Lancelot slew a dragon, Arondight deals additional damage to Heroic Spirits who have "dragon" attributes. *_

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Cu is probably the more dangerous servant overall. High stats, battle continuation and one of the most broken NPs


Iskandar said in Extella that if he and Cu were to fight to death..Cu would probably take him down  with him so he wanted nothing of that
So yeah.. the younger Alexander doesn't have a lot of chances against him...


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jul 6, 2017)

Fang said:


> Man its still hilarious how even with a shit tier master like Kariya, who was constantly dying because of Zouken with his magic circuits fucked up to sustain Lancelot, whose Arondight is so ridiculous it could only be used by Lancey in Berserker state for 4 minutes was absolutely rag-dolling Arturia casually



So why did he lose? For real, their last fight never made sense to me.

Everything I've read here and even on the type moon wiki suggests Lance should have ganked her the moment Arondight came into play.

He was in a close quarters fight with a weaker opponent who was having a mental breakdown. Saber didn't have Avalon, Berserker was literally eating Kariya alive magically to boost himself, and somehow she still manages to stab him?


What exactly did the anime leave out so that that was a thing that could happen? Was Lance restraining himself?


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 6, 2017)

My guess is that Lance has an absolute loyalty to the King type function and couldn't actually bring himself to kill Arthur


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## Qinglong (Jul 6, 2017)

uwotm8

kariya's mana literally dropped to nil right before lancelot could finish her off

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Jul 6, 2017)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> So why did he lose? For real, their last fight never made sense to me.
> 
> Everything I've read here and even on the type moon wiki suggests Lance should have ganked her the moment Arondight came into play.
> 
> ...



The moment Lancelot used his sword, it killed Kariya. Arondight can only be used by Lancelot for 4 minutes by a shit tier master like Kariya supporting him. Without his master to provide Mana, Lancelot only had a short window to finish off Saber and right before he could kill her, there was no Mana left to sustain him which is how Saber manages to "beat" him.  And Saber NEVER has Avalon.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 6, 2017)

Freezing like a statue because your master is literally going "Oh Dear God I'm Fucking Dying send help pls fuck you dad you're a dick" tends to get you killed

Berserker class for Lancelot is even noted by Butcher/Nasu to take from the realm of "High-Spec" (his saber self) to "Completely Overpowered" so he has the mana cost to convey that, every single fight Lance had and every major use of his abilities basically pushed Kariya closer and closer to death.

The interviews with Butcher and Nasu note that Kariya, while a weak magus, was exceptional for making it to the finals with such a taxing servant and that if Lancelot had been any other class, he'd have probably taken Saber down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jul 6, 2017)

I'm more asking how Saber lasted four minutes in the first place.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> I'm more asking how Saber lasted four minutes in the first place.


Oh come on , it's not like Saber is a shit servant compared to Lance power-wise. She still had her armor and precog


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 6, 2017)

Saber is shit compared to lancelot because he perfectly counters her

He knows her fighting style in and out, knows Excalibur's gimmick and can reliably catch it

Has Anti Dragon Attribute.

Saber survived due to plot armor, blatantly.


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jul 6, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Oh come on , it's not like Saber is a shit servant compared to Lance power-wise. She still had her armor and precog



The anime gave me the impression Lance threw the fight. He was bitchslapping her around and then suddenly has her sword in his guts. It was like the end of Shirou vs Archer again.

Just wondering if that was actually the case or if Saber just has really thick plot armor.

Edit: ninja'd. Well that's disappointing.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> The anime gave me the impression Lance threw the fight. He was bitchslapping her around and then suddenly has her sword in his guts. It was like the end of Shirou vs Archer again.
> 
> Just wondering if that was actually the case or if Saber just has really thick plot armor.


It was plot armour..Lance , normally would have killed her no doubt,but the fact that Saber managed to tough it out for 4 minutes wasn't THAT crazy.. if only for her experience ,endurance and precog.
It's not that crazy if you look at Cu who stale-mated Gill for half a day or at Sieg who managed to stalemate Karna for hours


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 6, 2017)

You mean the mentally broken saber who wasn't even fighting back at one point and getting stomped into the ground?

Because last time I check people who aren't fighting back tend to get killed.


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jul 6, 2017)

So how would Lance do against Rin!Saber?


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## Qinglong (Jul 6, 2017)

the same way he does against the other 2 sabers?


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 6, 2017)

Where does Hercules fit into all of this? Archer and Berserker mode. Could he beat someone like say Enkidu?

Though I think Enuma Elish might give Enkidu the win over him.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

~Avant~ said:


> Where does Hercules fit into all of this? Archer and Berserker mode. Could he beat someone like say Enkidu?


No.Those two versions of Herc have no place being at the  very top of the servant food chain. Their feats just don't cut it.
His god status basically fucks him up against Gill .
Enkidu was Gill's equall in their days + has insane regen  + back-up from the counter-force if his opponent threatens the planet .


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## Qinglong (Jul 6, 2017)

heracles broke enkidu

what fucked him over the most was having to protect illya and you know being mad

he would still lose but heracles would run train through most servants


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> heracles broke enkidu


When did this happen ? For the life of me , i can't remember


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## Qinglong (Jul 6, 2017)

literally one line below it.


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jul 6, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> the same way he does against the other 2 sabers?



Even the version that can take on Herczerker?

Better question: how does Lance do against Hercules? Either version for both.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jul 6, 2017)

Can Lancelot even kill Heracles more than once or twice? Ultimately God Hand is a stupid thing that would fuck over a lot of top servants.


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## Qinglong (Jul 6, 2017)

If you fed him weapons from like UBW or GoB maybe

otherwise no

Reactions: Agree 1


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jul 6, 2017)

His Saber version might be able to. Caliburn wasted a whole bunch of his lives in one shot, and Arondight Overload should be in that ballpark, right?


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 6, 2017)

It would probably only get rid of half his lives and then he'd be burnt out. Then Herc would probably wreck him.


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## Jackalinthebox (Jul 6, 2017)

How would Heracles fare against Karna?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 6, 2017)

The same way he handles other Servants?

God Hand's a pretty bullshit NP and that while Herk being a total tank

Okeanos had it with Herk being practically Nemesis from Resident Evil 3 but with a fuck ton of Servants ganging up on him and even then that was multiple battles at a time.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jul 6, 2017)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> The same way he handles other Servants?
> 
> God Hand's a pretty bullshit NP and that while Herk being a total tank
> 
> Okeanos had it with Herk being practically Nemesis from Resident Evil 3 but with a fuck ton of Servants ganging up on him and even then that was multiple battles at a time.



Couldn't Karna bypass God Hand? He was able to get through AoF through sheer skill, right?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 6, 2017)

His normal attacks are A-rank

That leaves him 8 lives short if be blows his entire arsenal on Herk and the herk backbreaks him

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BehemothV2 (Jul 6, 2017)

Did we ever get an official date for Nasu's Arthurian stuff?

Because they might have been contemporaneous with Siegfried, and Lancelot is supposedly the greatest swordsman of his era.


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## Hachibi (Jul 6, 2017)

Well there's NPs who can bypass God Hand like the Ark of the Convenant

VS being able to do so as well is unknown tho


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

BehemothV2 said:


> Did we ever get an official date for Nasu's Arthurian stuff?


The only  thing that comes to mind is the 5th century ...


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## BehemothV2 (Jul 6, 2017)

Siegfried must've been from the early 5th century, since his widow later married Altera


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

Idk about Sieg but GoA mentions the 5th century


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## Sablés (Jul 6, 2017)

Vasavi Shatki would probably hit Herk had enough to RIP  all his lives in one shot.

Otherwise, Herk beats Karna after one long as shit fight given both are stupid high tanks. There are all of like 5 servants who Herk wouldn't steam roll either immediately or eventually.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 6, 2017)

IDK about all of his lives at once

But definitely multiple

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

What extinguished all of his lives at once in one of the routes in Fate ? If it was Excalibur, VS should do  the trick too..


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## EGSage (Jul 6, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> What extinguished all of his lives at once in one of the routes in Fate ? If it was Excalibur, VS should do  the trick too..


It was Caliburn but only 7 lives were lost and it was because lolconceptmechanics or w/e that it was able to do so since Excalibur can only take 1 life iirc


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

EGSage said:


> It was Caliburn but only 7 lives were lost and it was because lolconceptmechanics that it did so since Excalibur can only take 1 life iirc


Oh .. i really don't remember the Herc fights from Fate, then how about a VS +Bramhastra Kumdala combo ? That should do it


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## BehemothV2 (Jul 6, 2017)

I don't think it was ever explained what a NP needs to kill Herk multiple times simultaneously.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jul 6, 2017)

Plot convinience or a weapon with the right amount of power or hax..whatever those amounts may be.
I wonder how well MEDP would work on God Hand..


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## Sablés (Jul 6, 2017)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> IDK about all of his lives at once
> 
> But definitely multiple


He's also got Brahmastra, melee and some suped up flame/thunder attacks in his arsenal. He could manage it, IMO.

As long as he uses VS last cuz if the armor goes first...


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 6, 2017)

Good luck actually pulling that off without his master dropping dead in seconds tho

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Crimson King (Jul 6, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> What extinguished all of his lives at once in one of the routes in Fate ? If it was Excalibur, VS should do  the trick too..



The sword of light appears in Saber's hands.
Berserker's hand squeezes Tohsaka.
I have no power, and all three of us will die as things are.

"Ku."
…Is that the only option?
Our only chance for victory is to spend Saber's scarce magical energy and use the Noble Phantasm that endangers her existence?





"EX"

""
The giant releases Tohsaka and charges straight for Saber.





"CALIBUR!!!!"
Berserker blocks the holy sword that breaks the ground.



_Music: Stop_



"Oh."
…The silver armor collapses.
Turning all her remaining magical energy into light, Saber is on her knees.
In front of her is Berserker, still in full shape.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Fang (Jul 6, 2017)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Can Lancelot even kill Heracles more than once or twice? Ultimately God Hand is a stupid thing that would fuck over a lot of top servants.



You need at least an A-rank to take Hercules life down with NP weapons. Lancelot's fists and Arondight would only be two. Not like Herc would ever tag Lancelot though.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Now you can imagine a scenario where Lancelot uses EAM on a nuke or some shit he gets from Shirou's UBW, then yes its really doable.

Reactions: Agree 1


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