# I want to hear a REAL argument for Jiraiya beating Kisame



## Troyse22 (Nov 28, 2018)

One that doesn't make me vomit blood.

I want to know how Base Jiraiya would beat P2 Kisame. I want to hear an argument that doesn't scream ignorance and stupidity.

Allow me to initiate.

Why can't Kisame absorb Yomi Numa, what about it is fundamentally uncounterable for Kisame? Why can't he dillute the swamp with his Suiton? Elemental wheel gg isn't an argument. Does it some how absorb his Suiton without it being dilluted?

Why can't Kisame can't hurt boss summons? Even if Ponta is only at worst 33% the size of Bunta (mine and 2 other non biased members calcs put Ponta roughly at 50% the size of Bunta, if you want to see the calcs I will do my best to find the thread where they are).

Even if you don't think Kisame can one shot Bunta Ponta style, it's pretty hard to argue that Kisame isn't breaking bones with his hits, say he hits Buntas leg. The only way one could genuinely argue this is being outright dishonest.

Why can't Kisame answer Jiraiyas Katon with his Suiton? Why is Jiraiyas Katon against Kisames Suiton unbeatable for Kisame? I understand the argument for collaboration techs, fair enough. But I don't think it's reasonable to equate Kakashis Suiton against Kakuzus to Kisames against Jiraiya, Kisames Suiton is on another level to Kakashis, whereas the gap between Kakuzus Katon+Fuuton is RELATIVELY equal to Jiraiyas Katon+Bunta oil
Even if you DONT believe that, why can't Kisame answer with Daikodan?

I've never seen anyone argue that Jiraiya is better at CQC than Kisame, but why isn't CQC a viable option according to people? Kisame would beat Jiraiya in a CQC battle, it's pretty clear. Why is Kisame allowing a for whom he knows is a purely mid range combatant to stay at his optimal distance? 

If your argument is "P1 scan gg" then I can reasonably conclude that you're an UNreasonable person. Have a real discussion you guys, bring REAL substance to the table.


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## Speedyamell (Nov 28, 2018)




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## Turrin (Nov 28, 2018)

I'll post why, but the moment you bring up nonsense i'm out T.

Kisame isn't on the same level as Jiraiya, he admitted it straight up. I'm not going to repost the comments. He also has struggled with enemies or been indicated to struggle with enemies in PI and PII, that would shit their pants facing Jiraiya. PI-Kakashi shit his pants facing Orochimaru, Jiraiya's rival, but apparently would give Kisame a tough time; and Roshi has no business even in the same ballpark as a Sannin. Even in the new Akatsuki Shiden Novel, Kisame needs to have his ass saved by Itachi twice, against the Bee keeper duo who are at most High Jonin's and have no business stepping to Jiraiya; and even if you want to say Shiden isn't canon that still should tell you that the author of Shinden who at least worked with Kishimoto, clearly see's a Huge gulf between Itachi's abilities and Kisame's, and places Kisame WAY WAY lower then Jiraiya's level, who can step to at the very least a Sick Itachi who schooled those B keeper Brothers w/o even remotely getting serious.

I bring this up only to set the stage of for the discussion of feats.

Kisame can produce large Suitons, to which I say so what, a Jiraiya that was so drugged that he can barely walk and couldn't even pull out a boss summon can produce large Dotons. Producing a large elemental Technique isn't something beyond the scope of borderline Kage-Class Shinobi. Look at Rasa, he's like one of the weakest Kages we've seen (no offense to Rasa) and he produced a far bigger Tsunami of Gold Dust out of thin air then any Suiton Kisame has ever produced w/o Bijuu Chakra. You talk about how Yomi Numa might not be a great counter for Kisame's Suitons, but so what, the fact of the matter is given the huge level difference and Jiraiya's shown skill with Doton, it would be very natural for Jiraiya to pull out a large Doton wall to counter a more offensive suiton rather then Yomi Numa; and it's actually far more unlikely to imagine that Jiraiya can't use thee most basic Doton Technique (Doton wall according to the manga itself), but can magically use an A-Rank signature one, then it is that he can.

Also what does Kisame hurting Boss summons have to do with anything? I don't think a single person on the forum believes that Gammbunta is going to solo Kisame. It's more like Jiraiya can easily hold off Kisame until he reaches SM and then he schools his ass, or he'll use more advanced summoning techniques like Toad Stomach or Gourd Toad, to end Kisame.

And that's the thing, Kisame has no counters to these. He definitively showed no counter to Toad Stomach in Part I; hence Itachi having to save his ass. And no filling the stomach up with water won't work because Jiraiya controls the size of the space; as we saw in the Pain Arc, Jiriaya can make the Toad Stomach dimension so large that it become a massive space that Kisame can't fill w/ enough water to burst; and Daikodan isn't working ether as it depend on chakra to grow more powerful, which Kisame can't absorb enough chakra from Jiraiya in time before being swallowed by the stomach. Gourd Toad is even worse due to the physical acid which can't be absorbed. 

SM recs Kisame, because he literally won't be able to use absorption at all w/o turning to stone; and has no counter to physically getting destroyed by basic Super strength punches and kicks. Like a SM Clone could take Kisame, simply because he couldn't absorb it's chakra for fear of being turned to stone like HG; and he would be out done in CQC due to SM perks; and eventually loose to physical attacks.

Reactions: Like 11


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## Architect (Nov 28, 2018)

Before he gets WD+DKD'd on the open ground? None.
Given Kisame bought the Legendary Sannin hype in canon, he unleashes the combo before Frog Song comes in play.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 28, 2018)

I don't think there's some gigantic gap between the two, but one does exist.

I think part of the gap can be closed based off location. If Kisame is fighting in an ocean, there can be serious troubles for Jiraiya. You bring up daikodan, but I think one issue here is the only time Kisame ever used Daikodan was when he had an ocean as a water source. I've never read the databook page on Daikodan so I'm not sure if there's a statement that implies exactly how much water is needed to create the technique, if Kisame can supply that amount of water himself, etc.

Another thing regarding base Jiraiya and fights he's in is how many of his techniques are often forgotten if not ignored. Sure he's got the combo katon/oil with Bunta and him fighting alongside Bunta is generally what everyone goes with and I won't bother posting scans of as it's repeated ad nauseam on this forum, but I think people seem to forget Jiraiya turned Konan in to some nobody, and did so extremely quickly. Now Konan obviously isn't some high bar to reach, but she's still a relatively powerful character and Jiraiya just made her look useless after soaking her in oil then trapping her with his hair, even while in base.

Then there's the portion of the fight vs Animal Path. People immediately go to Jiraiya trying for SM, but I think what people forget is Jiraiya went to SM because he was fighting the rinnegan and for all he knew Animal Path was . When base Jiraiya actually bothered fighting back before going to SM,he easily crushed a summon of animal path's:



He then goes to show that catching a human in it could easily result in their death too:



I think combining feats like these along with his combined efforts with Bunta and other toads, as well as the portrayal that , even without knowing about his SM, both shows and implies Jiraiya was placed above the majority of the Akatsuki, and I think including Kisame. Animal Path wasn't much of a match for his base form when Jiraiya actually bothered to fight it, Konan certainly wasn't, Kisame did out right admit inferiority(yes, it was part 1, and I know you mentioned it in your post, but I'm just listing the feats/portrayal here) and would have died to a single technique from Jiraiya had Itachi not saved them with amaterasu(this does come with the acknowledgement that Jiraiya outright had the advantage due to the enclosed location).

And I think even if you feel Jiraiya's base isn't enough, getting in to SM is really not that big of a deal here. It took 11 pages(well, he achieved SM on the 12th page) of non stop fighting/action vs Animal Path's summons to enter SM. The time there cannot be much more than a minute or two at most, and it never cuts away from their fight, so it's not like there was some unseen implied gap.

If you absolutely feel SM is needed to place Jiraiya above Kisame, Bunta or whoever holding off Kisame for 60 seconds or 120 seconds isn't really something unfeasible.

Reactions: Like 10


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## Troyse22 (Nov 28, 2018)

Turrin said:


> I'll post why, but the moment you bring up nonsense i'm out T.



And the moment you do I will ask you to leave my thread T.



Turrin said:


> he admitted it straight up





MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> If your argument is "P1 scan gg" then I can reasonably conclude that you're an UNreasonable person. Have a real discussion you guys, bring REAL substance to the table.



I'll be nice and give you a pass here, as it's the beginning of your post, I wanna at least make it halfway through your post.



Turrin said:


> Kakashi shit his pants facing Orochimaru, Jiraiya's rival, but apparently would give Kisame a tough time



1. Can you genuinely imagine Kakashi, who fought multiple V2 Jins is gonna shit his pants when face to face with Orochimaru again?
2. Jiraiya admitted inferiority to Orochimaru.
3. No where is it stated Kakashi would push Kisame. "If you take that man on it won't be without cost, it will take time" or something along those lines. Itachi seemed very certain of Kisame's ability to bring him down.



Turrin said:


> Roshi has no business even in the same ballpark as a Sannin



Why though?

A proficient Yoton user who's capable of wielding his Bijuu's element, whos Yoton would SUPPOSEDLY COUNTER Kisame's Samehada?

Kisame bested a so called counter.



Turrin said:


> Even in the new Akatsuki Shiden Novel



Databooks and Novel arguments will not be validated in this thread, take it some where else Turrin.

They are not canon. "By fans for fans" and when the author is listed as NOT KISHI, yeah no man.



Turrin said:


> he produced a far bigger Tsunami of Gold Dust out of thin air then any Suiton Kisame has ever produced w/o Bijuu Chakra



So basically every Bee fight Kisame feat is invalidated because "lol bijuu chakra"?

That's just unfair given his performance at 30% total power. He buried a desert underwater, which is something rasa could NEVER replicate at even 500% power.

And Kisame buried it MULTIPLE meters deep.

So stop the dishonesty.



Turrin said:


> it would be very natural for Jiraiya to pull out a large Doton wall to counter a more offensive suiton rather then Yomi Numa;



"Featless Doton no Jutsu" isn't an argument for Jiraiya, we don't even know what other Dotons he wields. It's the same reason we don't give Kakashi who has 1000+ jutsu hype every jutsu in the manga, because we don't know.

I, and any other level headed debater will not give Jiraiya something hes not even IMPLIED to have.



Turrin said:


> and it's actually far more unlikely to imagine that Jiraiya can't use thee most basic Doton Technique (Doton wall according to the manga itself), but can magically use an A-Rank signature one, then it is that he can.



I'd imagine he can use basic Doton, but giving him top tier-daikodan halting Doton is just stupid.

It is, it's blatant stupidity.



Turrin said:


> I don't think a single person on the forum believes that Gammbunta is going to solo Kisame



I've seen it said, and tbh i'm surprised the opposite is coming from you.



Turrin said:


> It's more like Jiraiya can easily hold off Kisame until he reaches SM and then he schools his ass,



Why though? How?

Why can't Kisame pursue Jiraiya? Kisame can create a battlefield advantage so he CAN'T get away.

Even if you throw him in Amegakure, what's to stop Kisame from flooding the halls and pursuing in his merged state?



Turrin said:


> he'll use more advanced summoning techniques like Toad Stomach or Gourd Toad, to end Kisame



And why can't P2 Kisame break out?

Samehada as early as P1 showed the ability to shred the stomach, apply Kisame's P2 strength feats and it's likely he can smash out of the side with pure brute force

Or what's to stop him from summoning sharks to shred the wall or force Jiraiya to release the jutsu?

I said it many times and i'll gladly say it again, Jiraiya trapping himself against a Kisame with intent to kill is about as stupid as it gets.



Turrin said:


> Kisame has no counters to these. He definitively showed no counter to Toad Stomach in Part I



P1 Kisame gets fucked by Jiraiya and i've never disputed this.

But Kisame not showing counters hundreds of chapters earlier, literal years and hundreds of chapter earlier, does not mean his P2 feats are suddenly negated.

It's senseless.



Turrin said:


> And no filling the stomach up with water won't work because Jiraiya controls the size of the space; as we saw in the Pain Arc, Jiriaya can make the Toad Stomach dimension so large that it become a massive space that Kisame can't fill w/ enough water to burst



Not that I personally have EVER argued that Kisame spits water to make it explode.

But giving Jiraiya THIS feat is just ridiculous, he would literally have to magnify the size of the stomach HUNDREDS of times compared to the hallway feat, and that is not something I can reasonably conclude he can do.

A couple of times over maybe

But enough to contain Kisame's desert covering quantity of water?

No man, no.

Imo Kisame would flood the stomach, NOT burst it, and send sharks to hunt Jiraiya or tear himself out.



Turrin said:


> Daikodan isn't working ether as it depend on chakra to grow more powerful,



It literally dwarfs Bijuu 2-3 times over (Daikodan), it's not a pill I or another reasonable person can swallow to say that it does NOTHING to toad stomach.



Turrin said:


> Gourd Toad is even worse due to the physical acid which can't be absorbed.



But it can be dilluted with Suiton 



Turrin said:


> because he literally won't be able to use absorption at all w/o turning to stone



With the explanation Fukasaku gave about SM (Jiraiya can't balance these perfectly, but for simplicity sake, and since it's not REALLY relevant here, we'll leave that alone) 33.3333% of different energies is required to perform SM jutsu. This would mean 33% of Jiraiya's total chakra would have to dwarf Kisame's 66% to turn him into stone. Jiraiya doesn't even have NEARLY that much chakra compared to Kisame who's>Nagato chakra wise.

So the argument for him turning to stone against SM Jiraiya is nonsensical given what we know about how SM works.



Turrin said:


> has no counter to physically getting destroyed by basic Super strength punches and kicks



Kisame while merged clashed with V2 Bee.

An inferior version of Bee (base) bested the Raikage's lariat, which shattered Sasuke's Susanoo.

Jiraiya's best strength feat is blinding human path with a kick

Kisame's best would be the clash with V2 Bee, and another great feat is beating Gai with strength, Gai who was literally smashing boulders larger than himself with a flick of his wrist. and Kisame did this ON 30 FN%

It's not only inaccurate to say SM Jiraiya>Kisame strength wise, it's blatantly dishonest and you'd have to ignore all of Kisame's feats to arrive at this conclusion.

And don't transfer Naruto's SM feats to Jiraiya, please don't do that. I'm all for Jiraiya's SM being underrated atm, but giving him someone elses feats only due to mutual Sage chakra manipulation is absurdity.



Turrin said:


> CQC due to SM perks



Kisame has his portrayal of being the best of the 7SOTM's.
Kisame bested Bee in CQC, who LITERALLY cucked MS Sasuke 0 diff.
Kisame bested Gai in CQC, who was matching, blow for blow, Rinnegan Obito, all while having to be wary of a Kamui warp.

Kisame's feats support him being the superior CQC combatant to SM Jiraiya.

Jiraiya doesn't have feats that compare, that's the truth and there's no way to twist it otherwise.

Kisame's strength AND skill in CQC exceed Jiraiya's MASSIVELY


Hey it's kinda cool we're here having this convo Turrin, I don't think we've ever actually really gone at it.

Address it all too, I did my best to address all your points and i'd appreciate the same.



~Kakashi~ said:


> You bring up daikodan, but I think one issue here is the only time Kisame ever used Daikodan was when he had an ocean as a water source



Kisame can create lake sized bodies of water, and Kisame didn't use the entire ocean to use Daikodan, so the idea that he can't use it under his own power even in a desert is unsubstantiated and baseless.



~Kakashi~ said:


> I've never read the databook page on Daikodan



Good, don't. It'll cloud your judgment.

The only thing I use it for is things like character height/weight.



~Kakashi~ said:


> if Kisame can supply that amount of water himself, etc.



If you think he can't with 100% of his own chakra, then i'd advise you to read his shoten (30%) feats.



~Kakashi~ said:


> Another thing regarding base Jiraiya and fights he's in is how many of his techniques are often forgotten if not ignored.



I don't think many people ignore anything in his base arsenal tbh.

Not giving him jutsu he's never stated or implied to have does not equate to ignoring his base arsenal.



~Kakashi~ said:


> but I think people seem to forget Jiraiya turned Konan in to some nobody, and did so extremely quickly.



Purely due to oil, she was beating him right up until that.

Oil does nothing but annoy Kisame, it doesn't counter his ability to fight...

I could literally imagine asking Jiraiya after having oil spit at him "What the hell is your problem old man?"



~Kakashi~ said:


> made her look useless after soaking her in oil then trapping her with his hair, even while in base.



She wasn't resisting after having been spat at with oil, she was beaten and i'm not disputing this.

But without oil, Jiraiya was REALLY going to have his work cut out for him with Konan, and it's possible he could lose since without oil, she's actually a horrendous matchup for him.

And yes, even without oil I view Jiraiya on a tier list at least a tier above Konan.



~Kakashi~ said:


> :
> 
> 
> 
> He then goes to show that catching a human in it could easily result in their death too:



And why is Kisame absorbing the chakra out of Jiraiya's hair not a viable option?

Jiraiya sends chakra through his hair to harden, lengthen and manipulate it. Samehada is a hard counter to this. Jiraiya's hair jutsu just serve as an amp to Kisame.



~Kakashi~ said:


> t



And Obito offers a contradicting statement, stating that Itachi is the one who kept him out of Konoha, not Jiraiya.

Pretty nonsense hype tbh, the Akatsuki as a group could take down every nation in the world easily. A combined Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Kisame, Pein, Obito, Itachi etc are a Hashirama level threat. Pein alone brought the strongest nation to its knees, can you imagine Deidara in the sky fucking shit up, Kisame on the ground drowning people, Itachi lighting up the village like new york city, Sasori killing innocents with his puppets etc.

Jiraiya would be 0 diffed by the collective Akatsuki, his presence against the collective Akatsuki is equal to the presence of a civilian.

The hype is nonsense.



~Kakashi~ said:


> Kisame did out right admit inferiority(yes, it was part 1, and I know you mentioned it in your post, but I'm just listing the feats/portrayal here



Then why mention it?

It's a now irrelevant argument, yes i'm aware P1 Kisame<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Jiraiya and I don't need anyone to tell me this.



~Kakashi~ said:


> It took 11 pages(well, he achieved SM on the 12th page) of non stop fighting/action vs Animal Path's summons to enter SM.



Non stop fighting?

You mean running through pipes?

He almost had to stop the Ma/Pa summon when things were looking bad against JUST animal path. Saying he was having no trouble is unfounded.

He did it, yes, but he had a VERY hard time, and was relying entirely on a seperate entity to achieve this.



~Kakashi~ said:


> If you absolutely feel SM is needed to place Jiraiya above Kisame, Bunta or whoever holding off Kisame for 60 seconds or 120 seconds isn't really something unfeasible.



I don't believe Jiraiya, SM or no SM is above Kisame, but for the sake of convincing others I am operating under the assumption that the gap isn't large, if existent, if not in favor of Kisame.

There are some who believe SM Jiraiya>Base Jiraiya>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kisame, and those are the people I am looking to convince.

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## LostSelf (Nov 28, 2018)

Turrin said:


> Also what does Kisame hurting Boss summons have to do with anything? I don't think a single person on the forum believes that Gammbunta is going to solo Kisame.



Oh Turrin, you're so innocent


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 28, 2018)

My perception:

Part One Jiraiya would one shot Part One Kisame.

However, Part Two retconned the Sannin into Low Kage with conditional Mid Kage status for Jiraiya with SM.

Kisame then got retconned to obscene heights, eventually topping the Akatsuki with some of the most insane hype in the verse. Post Retcon Kisame walks multiple tiers above SM Jiraiya, one above Itachi or Pein (who humiliated the Sannin), able to edge out the likes of Nagato and BSM Naruto, and able to give good fights and potentially beat the likes of Rinnegan Obito and EMS Madara depending on matchups.

But then Jiraiya got retconned to be able to beat Juubito in Base, which takes us back to Jiraiya one shoting Kisame.

Post Post Retcon SM Jiraiya>Post Post Retcon Base Jiraiya>>>Post Retcon Kisame>>>>>original Jiraiya>Post Retcon Jiraiya>>original Kisame.


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## Mawt (Nov 28, 2018)

Post retcon Kisame >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fanfic Jiraiya >>>>>>>>> Juubito


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 28, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Kisame can create lake sized bodies of water, and Kisame didn't use the entire ocean to use Daikodan, so the idea that he can't use it under his own power even in a desert is unsubstantiated and baseless.
> Good, don't. It'll cloud your judgment.
> 
> The only thing I use it for is things like character height/weight.
> ...



There's also no base line set for how much water he needs to use the technique, which is where the issue comes in. It's his ultimate technique, so it needing a ton of water isn't something that would be surprising. Could he create the amount of water needed? Possibly. But hard to say when you don't know exactly how much is needed. I'm aware of his ability to create a lake. There's also of course the Suiro Sameodori which is a pretty large amount of water as well. 



> I don't think many people ignore anything in his base arsenal tbh.
> 
> Not giving him jutsu he's never stated or implied to have does not equate to ignoring his base arsenal.



I have no idea what jutsu are being given to him that he doesn't have so no idea what to say here.



> Purely due to oil, she was beating him right up until that.
> 
> Oil does nothing but annoy Kisame, it doesn't counter his ability to fight...
> 
> ...



You might want to reread the fight(it's only a couple pages), she doesn't even scratch Jiraiya. She attacks him after the manipulated shadow technique which he easily counters with a katon, she fires a  at him which he just . She's going all out trying to kill him and he's just casually avoiding/countering everything and having a conversation with her.





> And why is Kisame absorbing the chakra out of Jiraiya's hair not a viable option?
> 
> Jiraiya sends chakra through his hair to harden, lengthen and manipulate it. Samehada is a hard counter to this. Jiraiya's hair jutsu just serve as an amp to Kisame.



Kisame absorbing the chakra doesn't end the technique. Jiraiya has one of the largest chakra pools in the manga, him having to put a little more in to his hair to keep it going and use it to impale or crush Kisame should Kisame get caught in it isn't some issue. 




> And Obito offers a contradicting statement, stating that Itachi is the one who kept him out of Konoha, not Jiraiya.



This would be a fine counter argument but Pain literally states the reason he personally didn't go capture the nine tails is because of Jiraiya. And then after Jiraiya is dead, he goes. 2+2 = 4 my dude.



> Pretty nonsense hype tbh, the Akatsuki as a group could take down every nation in the world easily. A combined Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Kisame, Pein, Obito, Itachi etc are a Hashirama level threat. Pein alone brought the strongest nation to its knees, can you imagine Deidara in the sky fucking shit up, Kisame on the ground drowning people, Itachi lighting up the village like new york city, Sasori killing innocents with his puppets etc.
> 
> Jiraiya would be 0 diffed by the collective Akatsuki, his presence against the collective Akatsuki is equal to the presence of a civilian.
> 
> The hype is nonsense.



It's obviously not meant to imply that Jiraiya > the entire Akatsuki. It's that sending a duo or Nagato/6POP going after Naruto with Jiraiya guarding him was something they were avoiding. They were afraid of entering in to combat with him. I don't even believe the part 1 comment Itachi makes about "backup means nothing" to even be about Jiraiya. It's pretty clear to me given the wording and the parallels that it's implying Kurama(the parallel being the first page of the manga stating Minato had the backup of the entire village and still could only stalemate the kyuubi) is what Itachi is most afraid of, not Jiraiya. Feel like that's only backed up by Kisame's later statements.





> Then why mention it?
> 
> It's a now irrelevant argument, yes i'm aware P1 Kisame<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Jiraiya and I don't need anyone to tell me this.



I noted why I mentioned it in the very post.



> Non stop fighting?
> 
> You mean running through pipes?
> 
> ...



Fighting and running through the pipes, yes. He never "almost had to stop the ma/pa summon", I dunno where you're drawing that from. I literally just reread the entire fight vs Pain when gathering scans for this thread, not once does he mention or show that he's about to stop the summoning. I can even grab all 11/12 pages of the fight from the viz translation if you'd like to prove that.


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## Mawt (Nov 28, 2018)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Nagato/the Akatsuki stayed out of Konoha/away from Naruto just because of Jiraiya


This is being taken out of context. Obito only ordered Nagato to capture the Nine Tails right after Sasuke vs Deidara took place. Jiraiya was simply an interruption.


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## Topace (Nov 28, 2018)

SM jiraiya > Kisame > Jiraiya imo


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## Turrin (Nov 28, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> 1. Can you genuinely imagine Kakashi, who fought multiple V2 Jins is gonna shit his pants when face to face with Orochimaru again?
> 2. Jiraiya admitted inferiority to Orochimaru.
> 3. No where is it stated Kakashi would push Kisame. "If you take that man on it won't be without cost, it will take time" or something along those lines. Itachi seemed very certain of Kisame's ability to bring him down.



1. Orochimaru fought a much stronger V2 Jin, while suffering from body failure; so yeah...
2. No he didn't
3. "If you fight seriously with him you won't be let off easy..."; that clearly implies a struggle; and no where does Itachi say Kisame would win.



> Why though?
> 
> A proficient Yoton user who's capable of wielding his Bijuu's element, whos Yoton would SUPPOSEDLY COUNTER Kisame's Samehada?


Roshi's feats in base in the War were not very impressive at all. Even if we account for him jobbing as an Edo, he has no feats or hype that place him above more skilled Jonin. A Sannin would never struggle with a High Jonin; again the strongest Jonin (Kakashi) in Konoha shit his pants at fighting a Sannin.

As far as Roshi's Youton countering Samehada; your entire premise is that Kisame even w/o absorbing high amounts of chakra is High Kage-level, yet he struggles with a High Jonin the moment he can't absorb Chakra. It makes no sense. Ether Kisame's level is dependent on the amount of chakra he gets a chance to absorb (which is my point) or he's not.



> Databooks and Novel arguments will not be validated in this thread, take it some where else Turrin.
> 
> They are not canon. "By fans for fans" and when the author is listed as NOT KISHI, yeah no man.


They are all official sources approved &/or worked on by Kishimoto. You choose to ignore them because they don't agree with your premise. Just like you ignore Part I and anything that isn't the B fight where Kisame had mass Bijuu Chakra. Which is exactly why you are arriving at such a faulty conclusion about Kisame's placement



> So basically every Bee fight Kisame feat is invalidated because "lol bijuu chakra"?


It's not invalidated he just needs Bijuu Chakra for me to believe he can replicate it as comfortably. Same thing with any of the war arc feats we saw from alliance members while they were enhanced by Kyuubi Chakra



> That's just unfair given his performance at 30% total power. He buried a desert underwater, which is something rasa could NEVER replicate at even 500% power.


This is silly, Gaara's Sand Tsunami in Part I turns an entire area into a desert and is more comparable in size to 30% Kisame's water wave:


Gaara's Sand Tsunami in the War completely dwarfed this one in size and is far beyond the size of anything that Kisame Shoten produced; and Rasa casually matched it:


And Kitsuchi with Mountain Sandwich dwarfed even Gaara's Sand Tsunami; and yet he is not indicated to be anywhere near Sannin level ether. Generating a huge elemental jutsu isn't that impressive at S-Class / Kage-level. End of story.



> "Featless Doton no Jutsu" isn't an argument for Jiraiya, we don't even know what other Dotons he wields. It's the same reason we don't give Kakashi who has 1000+ jutsu hype every jutsu in the manga, because we don't know.
> 
> I, and any other level headed debater will not give Jiraiya something hes not even IMPLIED to have.


Jiraiya is able to use an A-Rank Doton while poisoned to the point of near death, but can't any other Doton at all, even Doton wall which the manga states is thee basic Doton; to the point Shinobi alliance members could learn it on the fly. 



> I'd imagine he can use basic Doton, but giving him top tier-daikodan halting Doton is just stupid.


Never said he could block Daikodan w/ a Doton wall. He'd likely just avoid Daikodan by using Doton underground. Ether way Doton hard counters.



> Why can't Kisame pursue Jiraiya? Kisame can create a battlefield advantage so he CAN'T get away.
> 
> Even if you throw him in Amegakure, what's to stop Kisame from flooding the halls and pursuing in his merged state?


Kishimoto thought Jiraiya achieving Sage-Mode against Pain was reasonable and he really didn't even struggle that much he summoned one toad and used one barrier; it's absolutely silly for posters to believe that he wouldn't be able to achieve it against opponents weaker then Pain. 



> And why can't P2 Kisame break out?
> 
> Samehada as early as P1 showed the ability to shred the stomach, apply Kisame's P2 strength feats and it's likely he can smash out of the side with pure brute force
> 
> Or what's to stop him from summoning sharks to shred the wall or force Jiraiya to release the jutsu?


The problem is Kisame doesn't have time to sit their and wait for sharks to shred through the walls or to hit it multiple times; the walls of flesh were closing in to grab him instantly. That's why Itachi had to rely on a fast powerful offensive Jutsu like Amaterasu for them to escape in time. 



> But Kisame not showing counters hundreds of chapters earlier, literal years and hundreds of chapter earlier, does not mean his P2 feats are suddenly negated.


He never showed any Part II feats that contradict his Part I showings. You are looking at feats that he performed after absorbing tons of Bijuu Chakra, and then concluding that Part I doesn't make sense. That's literally the same thing as applying Naruto's feats when he's granted Kyuubi Chakra to his Base-Mode; and saying that statements about Base-Naruto's strength don't apply because he can do X,Y,Z when he has Kyuubi Chakra.



> But giving Jiraiya THIS feat is just ridiculous, he would literally have to magnify the size of the stomach HUNDREDS of times compared to the hallway feat, and that is not something I can reasonably conclude he can do.


He did it in the Pain Arc



> It literally dwarfs Bijuu 2-3 times over (Daikodan), it's not a pill I or another reasonable person can swallow to say that it does NOTHING to toad stomach.


We've never even seen Kisame use Daikodan w/o an Ocean & Bijuu Chakra enhancing him; and even then it was nowhere near the size of x2-3 Bijuu lol



> But it can be dilluted with Suiton


Kisame would be dead or fatal wounded from the Acid before he could use a Suiton. Not even Pain w/ Rinnegan could react in time to cast a Jutsu to save himself.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 28, 2018)

Can go either way.

Kisame's Water Dome would be a major threat but so will Frog Summons that can use Sage Arts and multiple tricks and can leap out of the dome. Although I agree if he can't go SM he's pretty much damned. For the most part atleast.


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## King1 (Nov 28, 2018)

Am glad the Sannin fans know they have recton jiraiya


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 29, 2018)

I dont have strong feelings one way or the other tbh

Imo Jman is pushed to High diff at absolute worst by basically any Mid level Akatsuki member or similar level opponent, Jman got walked all over (while in SM) by 3 of Pains paths who werent even using their abilities to their full extent (not at all in ningendos case for whatever reason even tho he literally lolnoped Jman and had direct contact with him at one point, and Animal path conveniently forgot it could use any offensive summon after it summoned Preta and Ningendo and also forgot entirely about Cerberus for some reason) and straight up stated they could, potentially AT ABSOLUTE WORST, kill him SM or not.

Jman doesnt have the hype to no diff mid level people. Blatantly doesnt.

People bring up the Konan thing and are flat out misrepresenting that exchange regardless. For one thing, Konan WASNT INCAPPED or even taken out of the fight, literally all Jman did was force her to keep her solid form  _(this is also ignoring the fact it was a literal hard counter for Konan, I would love to see some misinformed fool argue that shit oneshots Kisame or Deidara) _and not have pseudo intangibility anymore. Thats it. He did NO DAMAGE TO HER yet its treated as a oneshot in the NBD...Genius. Had Pain not shown up and Konan had to stand her ground solo, I have no doubt in my mind she could have made Jman sweat.

Jman simply has an easier time damaging her than most because he has intimate knowledge on her ability and he can prevent her from entering her paper form with pseudo intangibility.

Anywho, ill just address certain concerns raised in the OP since im here...



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Why can't Kisame absorb Yomi Numa


Cuz Samheada doesnt have AOE absorption and only eats what it comes into contact with per swipe.

Daikodan also could have trouble with it due to the differing element disadvantage Daikodan would have against a Doton tech and being a similar level of technique (both A-Ranked iirc)


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> what about it is fundamentally uncounterable for Kisame?


The fact hes primarily a Suiton user and its an incredibly high level Doton ability hurts him greatly


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Why can't he dillute the swamp with his Suiton? Elemental wheel gg isn't an argument.


Yes it is

A-Ranked Doton vs A Ranked or lower Suiton (as not every tech Kisame has is Daikodan level) = Doton wins literally every time in a clash.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Does it some how absorb his Suiton without it being dilluted?


It wouldnt be diluted because of the elemental wheel

What would happen in Universe if Kisame met Jiraiya in battle and he fired a Suiton attack at Yomi Numa, would be teh swamp would simply either get deeper, get harder to escape from, or straight up increase in size. Nothing negative will happen to YN at all, whatever teh outcome is, it can ONLY BE POSITIVE.

Same thing Yamato explains to Naruto about hitting Katons with Fuutons. It can ONLY end badly provided the two techs are even remotely comparable.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Why can't Kisame can't hurt boss summons?


Cuz they have better durability feats than he has strength ones.

Taking Shukakus wind missiles a few times and still being able to fight is a hella tall order for Kisame to surpass. Especially with fucking physical strength alone.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Ponta is only at worst 33% the size of Bunta


Even if youre right, which I genuinely dont care one way or the other about, size doesnt directly correlate to strength or durability, AND Ponta, even according to you, is still notably smaller than Bunta so even if size DID scale to strength and dura, its still not enough evidence cuz at best Kisame damaged something WEAKER than Bunta no matter how you slice it.

So this is a useless argument to indicate that Kisame can damage Bunta.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Even if you don't think Kisame can one shot Bunta Ponta style, it's pretty hard to argue that Kisame isn't breaking bones with his hits


Not really

base Gai could block a sizable portion of Kisames strength, and take a direct hit from it and suffer no notable injuries othat impeded him whatsoever.

Kisame is at best, with wank, capable of dishing out 4x those levels of force as his true body...

So

You have a punch that COULDNT impede BASE GAI WHATSOEVER x 4....That is doing NOTHING to A boss summon.

Period.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Why can't Kisame answer Jiraiyas Katon with his Suiton?


He can

Why wouldnt he?


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> I understand the argument for collaboration techs, fair enough.


Well accounting for oil fire amps and shit kisames smaller techniques could be off the table but something like 1,000 sharks or Daikodan should easily beat Jmans Katons.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> I've never seen anyone argue that Jiraiya is better at CQC than Kisame, but why isn't CQC a viable option according to people? Kisame would beat Jiraiya in a CQC battle, it's pretty clear.


I agree

Kisame has better reaction time, durability, strength and skill. Even in SM id give Kisame the nod in CQC based on SM Jmans piss poor feats against Ningendo.

Jman would keep his distance if he was smart.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Why is Kisame allowing a for whom he knows is a purely mid range combatant to stay at his optimal distance?


How does Kisame know Jman is a mid ranged purist?

Hes seen Jman do literally 2 things ever...One of which was to summon a Toad to fight Kisame himself in CQC, and the other was Toad Mouth.

Thats not enough info to draw a conclusion on his preferred fighting style.


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## Katou (Nov 29, 2018)



Reactions: Like 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 29, 2018)

Its beautiful


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## JuicyG (Nov 29, 2018)

Base Jiraiya and Kisame are rather close. But Jiraiya is still superior, even though they are in the same tier which include Hebi Sasuke and Hiruzen imo


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Kisame absorbing the chakra doesn't end the technique. Jiraiya has one of the largest chakra pools in the manga





MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> One that doesn't make me vomit blood.



K so ur out.



Turrin said:


> 1. Orochimaru fought a much stronger V2 Jin, while suffering from body failure; so yeah...
> 2. No he didn't
> 3. "If you fight seriously with him you won't be let off easy..."; that clearly implies a struggle; and no where does Itachi say Kisame would win.
> 
> ...



Oh my god. Since i'm considering u one of the main Jiraiya fans around here, i'll give u a pass and address this, but more of this nonsense is going to result in me asking you to leave the thread, of course you're not obligated to, but I will stop responding to you.



Turrin said:


> 1. Orochimaru fought a much stronger V2 Jin, while suffering from body failure; so yeah...



Show me Naruto in his 9 tailed V2 state.

Oh wait

You can't

Because even the highly immobile KN4 was matching evenly with him, and Oro only managed to push him back after being bisected.

V2>KN8>KN7 etc etc.

Oro fought a watered down V2 jin who is canonically the most immobile V2 jin.



Turrin said:


> 2. No he didn't



"I wasn't strong enough to bring him back" or something along those lines when he's referencing a flashback iirc 



Turrin said:


> 3. "If you fight seriously with him you won't be let off easy..."; that clearly implies a struggle; and no where does Itachi say Kisame would win.



That implies that Kakashi is going to take up time.

And yes, that to me does say Itachi thinks Kisame would win. Some things are implicit, Itachi suggests Kisame can get him with some difficulty, which is fair because Kisame in P1 is on a much lower power level.



Turrin said:


> Roshi's feats in base in the War were not very impressive at all.



His YCM blitzed KCM Naruto, wtf?



Turrin said:


> Even if we account for him jobbing as an Edo, he has no feats or hype that place him above more skilled Jonin.



Besides stepping to KCM Naruto, a high kage right?

Besides actually wounding Naruto through KCM right?



Turrin said:


> A Sannin would never struggle with a High Jonin



Why couldn't Jiraiya block base Gai's blitz then  (whom I assume u consider high jonin)



Turrin said:


> your entire premise is that Kisame even w/o absorbing high amounts of chakra is High Kage-level





No i'm not

I'm saying Roshi Yoton, according to the NBD, should be Samehada's worst nightmare as people think even if a lighter would touch Samehada it would explode.

Kisame answered the Yoton, this has nothing to do with the battle itself. Kisame.stepped.to.yoton.and.YCM.

Clearly Samehada doesn't have trouble absorbing Yoton, or Kisame answered every time with Suiton, which I don't see as likely for his YCM, which i'm sure resulted in it being absorbed V2 Bee style.

It was off-paneled, we don't know for sure, but I think my guess is a fairly reasonable one.



Turrin said:


> your entire premise is that Kisame even w/o absorbing high amounts of chakra is High Kage-level, yet he struggles with a High Jonin the moment he can't absorb Chakra.



Because you're ignoring his Shoten feats, which CLEARLY show he doesn't need Bijuu chakra to perform at max capacity.

He doesn't wear a fucking cloak even if he absorbs Bijuu chakra, all Bijuu chakra does is give Kisame more chakra to work with in attrition battles.

That's it

It doesn't amp his Jutsu

If he was wearing a cloak, YES you could argue this

But he doesn't

And never has

You need to PHYSICALLY manifest the Bijuu's chakra to receive an amp.



Turrin said:


> It makes no sense.



Because you refuse to acknowledge other people besides Jiraiya received boosts in P2, and the boosts weren't always equal.

That's the way it is

Increasing power levels.

Kishi simply went overboard with Kisame (as he did with a few others, like Gai, whos 8 gated power was only stated to exceed Hiruzen's full power, by the war arc, his power was supposedly 10 times greater than the Gokage's according to Kakashi)

We don't see eye to eye on Kisame because you refuse to look past that P1 statement.

Get over it man.



Turrin said:


> They are all official sources approved &/or worked on by Kishimoto.



Approved for equal credibility to the manga?

No dude.

Kishi states in an interview for the databook that he only provided in some parts

What parts are unknown

He didn't write it.

So i'm not going to validate it.



Turrin said:


> You choose to ignore them because they don't agree with your premise.



I choose to ignore them because they're not the manga.

You agree with them because they bolster your premise with nonsense like Jiraiya having ghost punches and sensing which is NEVER shown OR implied in the manga.

Don't start flinging shit, cause I can do the same.



Turrin said:


> Just like you ignore Part I



Acknowledges Jiraiya>>>>>>>>>P1 Kisame

"You ignore P1"

Shit flinging contest because i've got you on the ropes huh?



Turrin said:


> isn't the B fight where Kisame had mass Bijuu Chakra.



Regularly references Kisame's Shoten performance, against his biggest fucking counter in the manga

"You ignore everything but the Bee fight"

More shit flinging.



Turrin said:


> Which is exactly why you are arriving at such a faulty conclusion about Kisame's placement



I arrive at my conclusions because I put new (relative to P1) information ahead of outdated P1 information.

Kisame was portrayed as Itachi's equal at the time of his death, Kishi wrote it.

"I can't believe Kisame Hoshigaki, the monster of the mist _*AND THE MAN STRONG ENOUGH TO BE PAIRED WITH ITACHI UCHIHA*_ would die like this"

While he's literally surrounded by Kage levels on all sides.

"A Mokuton user and 2 perfect Jinchuuriki...that's a little tough...even for me"

I'm sorry but how can you POSSIBLY think Kisame was still portrayed as oh so inferior to the Sannin with statements like these?

He steps to Hebi Sasuke, whom he knew killed Orochimaru (no Kisame did not know the circumstances of that fight, to his and the Akatsuki's knowledge, full powered hebi sasuke beat full powered Orochimaru)

He stepped to a fucking Sannin killer with confidence.

Would someone who views himself oh so inferior to the Sannin do that?

No, he wouldn't. There's clearly a retcon that took place to where Kisame was portrayed ABOVE Sannin level.

If P2 information contradicts P1 information, I go with P2 information because it's the most up-to-date information available, and any debater worth a shit should too.



Turrin said:


> It's not invalidated he just needs Bijuu Chakra for me to believe he can replicate it as comfortably. Same thing with any of the war arc feats we saw from alliance members while they were enhanced by Kyuubi Chakra



Nagato, the Rinnegan tech spamming Uzumaki admits his reserves pale in comparison to Kisame's.

But sure, Kisame needs that oh so precious Bijuu chakra to move a muscle.



Turrin said:


> Same thing with any of the war arc feats we saw from alliance members while they were enhanced by Kyuubi Chakra



Weren't all of those people cloaked? 
Show me Kisame's Bijuu cloak and i'll concede right here, right now

I will admit Kisame is a chuunin level fodder autist if u show me him wielding a Jinchuuriki's cloak while performing any of his on panel feats.



Turrin said:


> Gaara's Sand Tsunami in Part I turns an entire area into a desert and is more comparable in size to 30% Kisame's water wave:



Okay?

Not true but okay?

So how does that invalidate him burying a desert tens of meters deep underwater?

I've yet to see Gaara put a forest under sand like Kisame can put a forest underwater, or a desert under water.



Turrin said:


> Gaara's Sand Tsunami in the War completely dwarfed this one in size and is far beyond the size of anything that Kisame Shoten produced; and Rasa casually matched it:



It's not larger.

A thin sheet of sand does not equate to putting a desert tens of meters deep underwater, it just doesn't.

And lol at Rasa matching it.

Rasa got cucked by a half serious WA Gaara.



Turrin said:


> Generating a huge elemental jutsu isn't that impressive at S-Class / Kage-level.





Jutsu rank is only determined by the difficulty to master it, not of how strong it is.

You and I both know this so stop presenting this information dishonestly.

And sorry but show me any other Suiton user that has ANY feats that even come CLOSE to Kisame' Suiton usage.

Inb4 Tobirama cutting a couple of Juubi branches as if that's a feat that touches shit like 1000 feeding sharks and Daikodan



Turrin said:


> Jiraiya is able to use an A-Rank Doton while poisoned to the point of near death



Jiraiya states the poison was meant to incapacitate.

Turrin brings it up to how he was nearly killed by it.

Reach for the stars my guy



Turrin said:


> to the point Shinobi alliance members could learn it on the fly.



Show me Jiraiya using it or learning it on panel

Even an implication that he has it will suffice

No?

Okay.



Turrin said:


> He'd likely just avoid Daikodan by using Doton underground



Okay so now Jiraiya has subterranean voyage?

This dude just steals Kisame's Jutsu now.

And sorry, but Jiraiya isn't reacting to something comparable in speed to Hirudora, it's not happening.

He dies to Daikodan, he has no attack that's Taijutsu AND exceeds it in base power.

He has chakra based attacks which Daikodan eats for lunch.



Turrin said:


> Ether way Doton hard counters.



Doton counters a chakra eating missile

/sigh



Turrin said:


> Kishimoto thought Jiraiya achieving Sage-Mode against Pain was reasonable and he really didn't even struggle that much he summoned one toad and used one barrier; it's absolutely silly for posters to believe that he wouldn't be able to achieve it against opponents weaker then Pain.



So basically Jiraiya could do it against 3 paths who have nothing comparable to Kisame in terms of Jutsu usage, Pein and Kisame share literally nothing in common when it comes to fighting style

So because he could do that.

He can easily do it against someone inferior to Pein?

Even though my question was a perfectly valid one, one that stumped you so you try to dance around it.



Turrin said:


> The problem is Kisame doesn't have time to sit their and wait for sharks to shred through the walls or to hit it multiple times;



All it takes is one smash.

One big bite.

Or he can send them at the wall of flesh after him and devour that?

Like do you just ignore EVERYTHING possible to make Jiraiya look good?

I'm asking for legitimate answers to my legitimate questions and all you're doing is giving me SOME FUCKING BULLSHIT RUNAROUND.

CUT IT THE FUCK OUT.



Turrin said:


> He never showed any Part II feats that contradict his Part I showings.



Yes he did.

Struggling to overpower Asuma

He went from that to getting credited with having "super-human strength" WHILE ON 30% by the same guy who was fucking smashing boulders several times his size CASUALLY.

YES THERE ARE FUCKING FEATS THAT CONTRADICT HIS P1 SHOWINGS.



Turrin said:


> You are looking at feats that he performed after absorbing tons of Bijuu Chakra,



No kid

No i'm not

No i'm not

No i'm not

I regularly reference his god.damn.fucking.shoten.feats. 

Which.is.his.weakest.form.in.p2.do.you.understaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand?

I reference EVERY one of his P2 feats, EVERY single one, with or without Bijuu chakra.

I'm getting so fucking sick of you outright LYING about me and getting away with it.

Cut the fucking shit.



Turrin said:


> That's literally the same thing as applying Naruto's feats when he's granted Kyuubi Chakra to his Base-Mode; and saying that statements about Base-Naruto's strength don't apply because he can do X,Y,Z when he has Kyuubi Chakra.



No it's not

Because we've never seen Naruto get empowered by Kyuubi chakra without some sort of physical indication, in P1 his best feat without manifesting a cloak is halting Oro's fodder snake. AND HIS EYES WERE KURAMA'S.

There is ALWAYS a physical indication of a Bijuu amp, and ALWAYS besides that ONE instance in P1, has ALWAYS been a Bijuu cloak.



Turrin said:


> He did it in the Pain Arc



Show me Jiraiya using toad stomach, the same one he used in the hallway, and magnifying it hundreds of times over.

Go on, i'll wait.



Turrin said:


> We've never even seen Kisame use Daikodan w/o an Ocean



He can make his own lake sized bodies of water.

Did Kisame create this ultimate technique specifically for use in an ocean?

How often does this fucking guy fight in the ocean?

And not only that, the size of Daikodan doesn't dwarf the amount of water Kisame can conjure UNDER EVEN HIS SHOTEN POWER.



Turrin said:


> Bijuu Chakra enhancing him



In his final fight with Gai, no where it stated he absorbed Bijuu chakra

He absorbed Bee's base chakra.

And Kisame only managed to absorb enough to regain his regular physical stature.

Gyuuki never states Kisame absorbed all of his chakra, like he did the last time they fought in Waterdome.

Kisame can't absorb all of the Gyuuki's chakra that fast.

He doesn't have the feats supporting that.



Turrin said:


> and even then it was nowhere near the size of x2-3 Bijuu lol





Kisame is that tiny red dot.

Yes, Daikodan in fact does dwarf Bijuu pretty casually.



Turrin said:


> Kisame would be dead or fatal wounded from the Acid before he could use a Suiton.



Animal was literally submerged in the stomach acid for at least 5+ seconds.

And no damage from said stomach acid was actually evident.

And Kisame has superior durability to Animal

But sure Kisame is turning to ashes the moment his pinky touches the acid.


You're gonna start showing some goddamn respect @Turrin I was being nice to you and addressed everything and all you did was ignore 2/3 of my post and insult me at every opportunity.

You will be goddamn respectful or you can GET THE FUCK OUT.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I would love to see some misinformed fool argue that shit oneshots Kisame



Jiraiya no diffed Konan so he can no diff Kisame

In this thread, scroll up 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz Samheada doesnt have AOE absorption and only eats what it comes into contact with per swipe



So Samehada now can't absorb unless Kisame physically swipes with it?

So I guess Samehada getting punched and stealing Bee's V2 cloak is just being ignored?

Why wouldn't the chakra be pulled into the absorb radius, as that's how literally ALL fucking chakra absorption works, even Samehada as shown on panel

It pulls chakra to it from an unstated radius.

Dancing around it is you saying Samehada only disperses chakra, it doesn't absorb it which is fucked.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Daikodan also could have trouble with it due to the differing element disadvantage Daikodan would have against a Doton tech and being a similar level of technique (both A-Ranked iirc



A chakra eating missile defies the elemental wheel, that's just the way it is, it doesn't answer to the elemental wheel, chakra is chakra regardless of the form it's put into.



WorldsStrongest said:


> The fact hes primarily a Suiton user and its an incredibly high level Doton ability hurts him greatly



As I said, elemental wheel gg is not an argument and I will not continue responding if this is the stance you will take.

Be reasonable and use your fucking head.



WorldsStrongest said:


> A-Ranked Doton vs A Ranked or lower Suiton (as not every tech Kisame has is Daikodan level) = Doton wins literally every time in a clash.



Implying every tech that Jiraiya has is fucking Daikodan level.



WorldsStrongest said:


> It wouldnt be diluted because of the elemental wheel



Jesus.fucking.christ.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz they have better durability feats than he has strength ones.



Not according to the Bee fight 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Taking Shukakus wind missiles a few times and still being able to fight is a hella tall order for Kisame to surpass. Especially with fucking physical strength alone.



I don't recall Bunta EVER taking a direct wind missile, only countering with Water Bullets.

It has been a long time though, so I could be proven wrong here.

Regardless durability against cutting power /=/ durability against brute force, as the Pein fight showcased.



WorldsStrongest said:


> AND Ponta, even according to you, is still notably smaller than Bunta so even if size DID scale to strength and dura, its still not enough evidence cuz at best Kisame damaged something WEAKER than Bunta no matter how you slice it.
> 
> So this is a useless argument to indicate that Kisame can damage Bunta.



Kisame can incap something comparable in size.

Kisame can't even come close to breaking the skin on something else.

Some how I don't think the gap between their durability is THAT large, this was done to showcase that Kisame can take down big things.

This isn't some hugely in depth crazy panel, it's clear what the authorial intent was, big beasts aren't some unstoppable uncounterable force for Kisame (nor any other respectable kage level in my mind tbh)



WorldsStrongest said:


> base Gai could block a sizable portion of Kisames strength,



He blocked 30% Kisame's one armed assault.

And in doing this called it superhuman and buckled literally a second after.

Gai did not block a "sizable portion" of Kisame's strength.

This is blatantly dishonest.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You have a punch that COULDNT impede BASE GAI WHATSOEVER



Coughs blood

"This attack didn't hurt Gai whatsoever"

One more thing like that I come across and i'll ask you to leave the thread.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats not enough info to draw a conclusion on his preferred fighting style.



Yes it is.

Just like it's clear from the first real fight with Gai that he's a Taijutsu specialist.

Yes, one can reasonably draw a conclusion on someone's fighting style based off the first few moves because that person often employs what they're most comfortable with.

It's why Kisame employs CQC MOST of the time first, and when he can't definitively win quickly against opponents in CQC, he goes for mid-long range combat.

This is how every Shinobi in Naruto operates.

And Jiraiya is not the exception just because he's a Sannin.


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## Mawt (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Yes he did.
> 
> Struggling to overpower Asuma
> 
> ...


And failing to knock back a nameless toad while his Shippuden self could knock back Punta casually. It really still surprises me how people act oblivious to this..


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> And failing to knock back a nameless toad while his Shippuden self could knock back Punta casually. It really still surprises me how people act oblivious to this..



Yup.

That's how some people think, depressing.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> So Samehada now can't absorb unless Kisame physically swipes with it?
> 
> So I guess Samehada getting punched and stealing Bee's V2 cloak is just being ignored?


Its not being ignored...Samheada touched the chakra and absorbed everything it came into contact with

Samehadas surface area is straight up not large enough to tag the entirety of a Boss Summon+ sized swamp tho

Fucking period


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Why wouldn't the chakra be pulled into the absorb radius


So Kisame is just gonna stick Samehada inti a swamp and wait for the enter thing to drain directly onto Samehada and not get tagged with anything at all while stuck there waiting for said thing to happen unable to move or use Samehada at all?

And you fucking accuse me of dishonesty


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Dancing around it is you saying Samehada only disperses chakra, it doesn't absorb it




Exactly what im saying will happen here.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> A chakra eating missile defies the elemental wheel


I was merely using Daikodan to make the point that its his best technique by far and at best is peer to YN.

So no other tech he has works

Daikodan, if given enough time, would beat YN tho i agree.

Nothing else would


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> As I said, elemental wheel gg is not an argument


To everything thats Daikodan level (ignoring absorption) and lower it is


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Be reasonable and use your fucking head.


Chill your fucking tits dude

And yes, regarding everything thats not fucking Daikodan, elemental wheel gg is a valid argument


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Implying every tech that Jiraiya has is fucking Daikodan level.


> Troy asks what happens when YN is used
> I tell troy that YN can counter any suiton Kisame has bar Daikodan due to being Daikodans peer and being a Doton technique
> Troy makes the stupid fucking assumption that for some fucking reason im not referencing YN anymore despite being asked SPECIFICALLY about YN

Pathetic shit

Actually pathetic


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Jesus.fucking.christ.


Read the fucking manga kiddo

Kisames suitons arent magically exempt from the wheel


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Not according to the Bee fight


You mean that fight where Kisame didnt hit anywhere near as hard as a Biju can at any point and merely damaged Bee cuz he drained him out of his V2 state before doing damage to him 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> I don't recall Bunta EVER taking a direct wind missile







MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Regardless durability against cutting power /=/ durability against brute force


It doesnt matter when youre talking an energy differential thats this fucking massive

The medium the force is applied in only makes a difference when comparing it to another force when said forces are comparable

And they arent here


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Kisame can incap something comparable in size.
> 
> Kisame can't even come close to breaking the skin on something else.


So its fucking OK for you to call something thats 30% of Buntas size, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, "comparable" to Bunta overall...


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Gai did not block a "sizable portion" of Kisame's strength. This is blatantly dishonest.


But when I say 30% of Kisame is a comparable portion of his full strength, im dishonest

Jesus...In the same fucking post and everything

Fuck yourself with this hypocritical nonsense 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> He blocked 30% Kisame's one armed assault.


Exactly

*BASE* Gai did that


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> And in doing this called it superhuman


Still matched it 

And hey

I thought Gai had "boulder busting strength"

That aint superhuman? 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> buckled literally a second after.


No he didnt



He stopped the first hit dead in its tracks albeit with great effort

Still stopped it...In Base...


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> blatantly dishonest.


Says the guy literally making shit up 



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Coughs blood
> 
> "This attack didn't hurt Gai whatsoever"
> 
> One more thing like that I come across and i'll ask you to leave the thread.


Learn to fucking read

I never said "Gai wasnt damaged"

I Said "Gai didnt take an injury that IMPEDED him"


WorldsStrongest said:


> Gai could block a sizable portion of Kisames strength, and take a direct hit from it and suffer *no notable injuries that impeded him whatsoever.*


And he didnt

Or did you miss the part where he FOUGHT OFF 5 FUCKING SHARKS after taking that hit, went 6th Gate which has HELLA strain but still didnt feel the injury from kisames punch, dumpstered Kisames 30% clone with a Gated tech with EVEN MORE STRAIN and doesnt feel the injury here either, CONTINUED ON MISSION and broke a barrier to enter an Akatsuki hideout, fought a clone of himself and won while still not impeded by the injury, AND THEN CARRIED KAKASHI HOME WHILE STILL NOT FEELING THE INJURY

Also, Mr. Triggered OP, you have no damn ability to make me leave a thread whatsoever

Im on topic, and didnt antagonize you in any way in the post youre replying to

Youre the one being pissy over literally nothing and flinging nonsense at me

Not to mention false accusations and hypocritical conclusions


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Yes it is.


No it isnt


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Just like it's clear from the first real fight with Gai that he's a Taijutsu specialist.


Itachi is the one who straight up tells the entire Akatsuki that Gai is a Taijutsu specialist actually

Kisame cant tell someone is a damn Taijutsu purist because he took ONE KICK from Gai...Dont be fucking ridiculous.

Hate to break it to you kid, but Kisame was so fucking misinformed after facing Gai not once, not twice, but THREE FUCKING TIMES, that he thought his be all end all move (hirudora) was NINJUTSU...Not Taijutsu...

Get rekt kiddo


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## Azula (Nov 29, 2018)

A whole lot of things 

1) *Oil and water do not mix. *So you can't douse oil based fire with water, you probably hear this advice. Oil will simply continue burning on top of it and separately and the heat will evaporate the water. An important point seeing that Jiraiya relies on oil while Kisame relies on water.

2) *Toads summons have metal weapons and armor that cannot be absorbed*. Part 1 mini toad stopped Kisame with a metal armor on his arm. That's the difference between trained combat ready toad Summons and dumb Ponta. Any single Boss sized summon will be a major problem for Kisame. They are bigger than even the wall of sharks, their metal weapon and armor render Samehada useless against it. One strike of Gamabunta's sword pinned down Manda, ripped off Shukaku's arm and Gamakichi was deflecting Juubi army's spikes. One hit from their weapons will kill Kisame and Samehada, or break it in half.

3) *A lot of Jiraiya's own jutsus cannot be absorbed*. Toad mouth Bind is a summoning, Samehada was stuck in it. Ranji Shigami is just re-inforced hair. It would have punched half a dozen hole into Animal path and ripped off it's giant crab summon limb to limb. Too fast to absorb or defend against. Getting dunked into the pool of acid inside Toad barrier literally melts off half your body.

4) *Kisame needs to have chakra stolen beforehand if he wants to heal from any attack*. If he hasn't done this, if Samehada has not absorbed enough chakra to heal him back from a fatal attack then he dies just like any other character without healing. Hence it is important point when matching him up with characters that don't get their jutsu absorbed easily.

5) *Samehada doesn't absorb large AoE jutsu efficiently*. Only absorbed like 1/3rd of Itachi's fireball, only the ones it came close contact with while Bee swung it. That makes it hard for Kisame to defend his water jutsu from getting evaporated from Jiraiya's large scale katons.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2018)

There is nothing to be debated since we were flat-out told where they stand to each other. Jiraiya is stronger than all Akatasuki
besides Pain & Obito only.

in case of Kisame the portrayal is rather clear/obvious and there is no shadow of doubt on where Kishi wanted him (or them) to be seen at.

1- We get Kisame admitting that he is flat out nowhere close to Jiraiya's level. Saying "our levels are too far apart"
He knows and admit that he is no match for Jiraiya. This alone is enough on its own.

2- We get to see their quarrel later on and Kisame was a helpless bitch and needed itachi to save his ass.

The "retcon" nonsense has no place in no argument. It's all your imagination. Kisame's level was already determained to be around Kakashi and Gai's level from the get go. Something held true until his death and his constant defeat by Gai.


Those same 2 who are a step or 2 below the Sannin throughout the manga. Whether when
A) Kakashi was about to shit in himself in front of Oro in part 1
B) When Kakashi said that Jiraiya taking on Pain was a crazy feat
C) When Gai was told to stay out of Naruto's battle with Pain
D) When Shikaku said that Naruto getting SM means he is on a class of his own

3- The fact that Jiraiya is the counterpart to itachi, and the slightly superior one at that. Same itachi who is also stronger than Kisame and boss him around despite being younger than him.

Whether you take it by point 1, 2, or 3 all of them leads to the only conclusion which is the fact that Jiraiya is stronger than Kisame and by a fairly big gap as well.


and at the end of the day, going with "X will do this, and Y will not do that" will not lead to anywhere as, sadly, the characters are not going to follow the scenario the fans creating for them. And creating scenarios can lead to any conclusion the writer (in this case, the fans) want for those characters to go. Which is not really accurate.


I remember the same thing happened with Konan's case as well. People were also denying that Jiriaya is stronger than her after they saw her feat against Obito. 

In conclusion, Jiraiya is stronger than all Akatasuki memebers (and yes, that INCLUDES itachi) except for Pain & Obito only.


Thank you.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> K so ur out.



Don't have to get so upset over being proven wrong, but you were upset too when I proved you wrong after you stating Kisame > Gai a long while back, so I'm not surprised.


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## Walterb (Nov 29, 2018)

Sage chakra can't be absorbed so easily. One of pain's paths turned into stone as it tried to do it. Plus itachi said it would take both kisame and him to bring kiraiya to a stalemate, and he is an expert shinobi so he knows how to estimate strenght. Jiraiya would win.


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## Omote (Nov 29, 2018)

Why does every thread with this guy end up so hostile?

Naruto isn't worth getting so angry over

Reactions: Like 5


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## Turrin (Nov 29, 2018)

Troy I read your post but I can’t have a discussion with someone who is going to ignore A majority of the manga, all the databooks, and other supplimentary material; and only use evidence 3 chapters of the manga ( end of the Gai and B battle). While at the same time refusing to acknowledge that during those chapters Kisame had recieved an enormous amount of Bijuu chakra that in every other instance in the story when a character has received the same their abilities have been greatly enhanced. And in the latters case failing to acknowlegde the stated topographic advantage he has of the ocean which again in every other instance has drastically enhanced other characters abilities.

If your going to believe the rest of the manga and supplementary materials are flase and going to believe that Kisame was not empowered at all by Bijuu chakra or topography advantage unlike every other character in the manga; and could just casually pull the same feats without these advantages, then their is really nothing to discuss and I totally get why you think Kisame is so powerful and why you cant see the perspective of people who believe Jiraiya would mid/low diff Kisame.

So I don’t really know how to proceed or see any value in it.


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## Kisame (Nov 29, 2018)

I'm gonna go through this fight in stages, those stages being Kisame's landscapes:

*1. On dry land:*
Kisame opting for CQC against Jiraiya won't get him anywhere, Jiraiya likely is inferior to him in CQC overall but he still has a 4.5 in speed, Taijutsu and strength in the DB - this means that Kisame cannot force Jiraiya into a prolonged CQC exchange especially considering Jiraiya doesn't like to engage in CQC and prefers mid-long range as that complies with his arsenal. Kisame is not fast enough to close the distance before Jiraiya uses a jutsu nor is it impossible for Jiraiya to retreat from CQC in case he was forced into it (but that is unlikely anyway).

This brings us to the next part, which is how Kisame will deal with Jiraiya's mid-ranged assaults. Jiraiya's hair jutsu restrains and one-shots summons and is guided to attack the enemy. Kisame may not get one-shotted by it but he's still gonna need some sort of suiton projectile to handle this, as dodging is difficult and while he has the strength to break out of it the hair doesn't _only _restrain which is the problem here. Yomi Numa will restrain Kisame and make him open for a kill from Jiraiya, I'm not sure how Samehada will interact with the mud but Kisame's only sure way to escape would be to flood the swamp with water. Toad stomach will require some heavy suiton jutsu to escape as well.

*2. On the lake:*
Assuming Kisame doesn't get killed beforehand or decides to use Bakusui Shouha off the bat or when Jiraiya summons, then this allows him more maneuverability and firepower. I'll give Kisame the benefit of the doubt and say Yomi Numa won't work (properly) on a huge lake. Kisame can now opt to go underwater to escape aoe or readily have sharks swarming Jiraiya from all angles. Thing is, Jiraiya is actually very adept at fighting on water as well. Jiraiya's toads can swim (if his tiny frogs can then so should the big ones) and he was able to escape shared vision and snag a Pain body on a water surface as well - if Jiraiya summons Gamabunta to distract Kisame while he hides in a toad underwater and waits to snag him into his barrier or blindside him I'm not sure how Kisame will survive seeing what Jiraiya could do against Pain. Yes Jiraiya was in SM when he did that but that was against Pain (and shared vision) and this is Kisame - Jiraiya also had one arm. Basically if Jiraiya decides to fight indirectly then Kisame will die.

In a direct confrontation, 1000 sharks can be dealt with Gamayu Endan, Bunta's bullets, etc. Jiraiya might use this as a LOS blocker to blindside Kisame as well. Daikoudan is the only real threat and can be dodged via Gamabunta leaping. If Jiraiya directly attacks Kisame while on top of Gamabunta using his own jutsu as well then Kisame is in trouble as he'll have to dodge Gamabunta and Jiraiya simultaneously.

*3. Waterdome:*
If it gets to this point, Jiraiya can drag Kisame into his barrier, use boss summons as distractions/to escape, use Yatai Kuzushi to somewhat disturb the dome. If Jiraiya is caught by Kisamehada, he can do what Naruto did to Preta Path and turn him into stone.

--------

I've been told that Jiraiya can summon Fukasaku and Shima in base, in the event that he doesn't want to reach SM but simply summon them while he remains in base, Kisame is screwed in this case.

SM makes all of this easier for Jiraiya, and he can reach it easily either directly or indirectly if he wants to.

I'd say Kisame gives a Jiraiya that is restricted to base a mid-diff fight at best in case he gets to survive long enough to use all his jutsu, and he gives unrestricted Jiraiya a low-diff fight seeing as he wouldn't require him to use a significant part of his strength (SM).

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kisame (Nov 29, 2018)

Turrin said:


> Troy I read your post but I can’t have a discussion with someone who is going to ignore A majority of the manga, all the databooks, and other supplimentary material; and only use evidence 3 chapters of the manga ( end of the Gai and B battle). While at the same time refusing to acknowledge that during those chapters Kisame had recieved an enormous amount of Bijuu chakra that in every other instance in the story when a character has received the same their abilities have been greatly enhanced. And in the latters case failing to acknowlegde the stated topographic advantage he has of the ocean which again in every other instance has drastically enhanced other characters abilities.
> 
> If your going to believe the rest of the manga and supplementary materials are flase and going to believe that Kisame was not empowered at all by Bijuu chakra or topography advantage unlike every other character in the manga; and could just casually pull the same feats without these advantages, then their is really nothing to discuss and I totally get why you think Kisame is so powerful and why you cant see the perspective of people who believe Jiraiya would mid/low diff Kisame.
> 
> So I don’t really know how to proceed or see any value in it.


How would a fight between Hachibi-empowered Kisame in the ocean vs Jiraiya go?


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## Grinningfox (Nov 29, 2018)

Omote said:


> Why does every thread with this guy end up so hostile?
> 
> Naruto isn't worth getting so angry over



Some people are just too sensitive 

Not speaking about you OP you’re pretty doing God’s work


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## Turrin (Nov 29, 2018)

Shark said:


> How would a fight between Hachibi-empowered Kisame in the ocean vs Jiraiya go?


Would be an extremely tough match. 

Kisame would be able to spam his largest suitons right away, which Jiraiya would have a hard time countering. He can’t use Doton on the ocean as effectively and even his larger katons will be overcome by elemental opposition. 

I still think Jiraiya can win though, if Kisamw comes into Cqc he could get trapped by toad gourd or end up getting turned to stone when he tries to absorb Jiraiyas chakra. 

If he stays at a distance Jiraiya can use boss roads to meat shield some suitons long enough to fall back into toad gourd and achieve Sage Mode. From there I could see him holding out long enough for Frog Song to win.

So yeah Jiraiya May still win but it’s with high / extreme diff and only because he’s got some solid counters to Kisames abilities otherwise he’d loose. 

I mean your giving Kisame advantages on the same level as Konan advantages  in her fight against Obito which allows her to push Obito to high diff despite her being a one of the junior / weaker Akatsuki partners like Kisame, Deidara, and Hidan. So I think normally that’s enough to enable them to beat someone who is on the senior akatsuki member level like say a sannin


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Omote said:


> Why does every thread with this guy end up so hostile?
> 
> Naruto isn't worth getting so angry over



Because I keep getting insulted while I kept trying to be as respectful as possible.

Outright insulted and lied about

"DURRDURRDURR jeez he doesnt like being lied about imagine that"


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Turrin said:


> Troy I read your post but I can’t have a discussion with someone who is going to ignore A majority of the manga,



God damnit dude, show me where I'm ignoring the manga

I stated if new information contradicts older information I disregard the old info.

You can't have a discussion with someone who called you out on lying about them and putting the idea of base Jiraiya>>>>>>Kisame in the fucking dirt.



Turrin said:


> all the databooks, and other supplimentary material; and only use evidence 3 chapters of the manga





I regularly cite every Kisame fight, but they are limited

Do you want me to cite totally irrelevant information? Kisames fights are limited so I have a limited amount of fights to grab feats from.
And what's with you? You only reference Pein fight for Jiraiyas SM abilities GUESS IT DOESNT COUNT.



Turrin said:


> While at the same time refusing to acknowledge that during those chapters Kisame had recieved an enormous amount of Bijuu chakra that in every other instance in the story when a character has received the same their abilities have been greatly enhanced.



You refuse to acknowledge that ANY other Jin receiving ANY kind of amp ALWAYS had a physical indicator for an amp in the form of a cloak.

I cornered you on that point, you goddamn fucking know you're wrong so just admit it.

Don't admit it and I'm asking you here and NOW to not participate in this thread, as that will definitively prove to me that you are an unreasonable individual.



Turrin said:


> And in the latters case failing to acknowlegde the stated topographic advantage he has of the ocean which again in every other instance has drastically enhanced other characters abilities.



Because Gai couldn't really retreat from where he was, and if he did Kisame got away with Intel.

He had Gai cornered in his most comfortable environment, and Gais least comfortable.

But people like you act like Kisame NEEDS to ocean to perform high Kage level jutsu. Yet I point out his Bijuu chakra less 30% feats as proof that a 100% Kisame has easily enough chakra to spit the water for these jutsu.

What do you do? Lie about me and backpeddle.



Turrin said:


> Kisame was not empowered at all by Bijuu chakra or topography advantage unlike every other character in the manga; and could just casually pull the same feats without these advantages,





Kisame would have a larger chakra pool/stamina pool to battle under, while simultaneously draining his opponent, this ensures an attrition victory every time. This empowers Kisame as he even states (but you will ignore it because that's the bottom tier posting you engage in) "The stronger my opponent is the stronger I become as well, I WILL NOT TIRE...I WILL NOT FALL"

Because he steals his opponents stamina in every damn fight he participates in barring Gai, who's a nightmare matchup for him.

Jiraiya will not be an exception, Jiraiya who spams chakra based techs.



Turrin said:


> I totally get why you think Kisame is so powerful and why you cant see the perspective of people who believe Jiraiya would mid/low diff Kisame.



Fuck yourself with this condescending bullshit dude.

You refuse to address any of my posts and act like I'm the one being ignorant of facts?

-snip-

Throw me on ignore and GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY THREAD.



Turrin said:


> So I don’t really know how to proceed or see any value in it.



Because you've got Jiraiya down your throat and won't acknowledge anything that shatters your biased bullshit reality.

Address my previous post in full

Prove me wrong

Prove me wrong you lie spreading wretch.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Walterb said:


> Sage chakra can't be absorbed so easily. One of pain's paths turned into stone as it tried to do it. Plus itachi said it would take both kisame and him to bring kiraiya to a stalemate, and he is an expert shinobi so he knows how to estimate strenght. Jiraiya would win.



Because 33% of Narutos reserves exceeded that paths 66% reserves 

Does 33% of Jiraiyas hypeless and featless reserves exceed 66% of Kisames, which has hype from several people and the feats to back it up?

If your answer is anything but no, then you have no point and you should hush


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## Serene Grace (Nov 29, 2018)

My thoughts



> Anyways I believe Jiraiya would win. Jiraiya can block Kisames Suikodan projectiles with Hari jizo.
> 
> None of Kisame's suitons are even near the scale of a Gamma Endyan, not even close., the same Gambunta that was comparable to both the  and (two bjuuis) and was also shown  we have Gamma Endyan dwarfing Kisame's Suitons by a _laughable margin_. To add fire to the flame, Kisame's Suitons would only make Jiraiya's oil infused Katon's more potent. Oil at a higher temperature than water which implies that when water is filled bubbling oil it is warmed to, and past, the breaking point rapidly. In the event that Kisame reacts to Gamayu Endan by vomiting out a lake at that point it will have a savage response that is truly just perilous to Kisame who's on the ground inside the blend of the two, then to add even more fire to the flames Kisame can't use Samehada as heat is its weakness as per canon, if Samehada cried in pain from absorbing a fodder katon imagine how much pain he's gonna be in trying to absorb a Katon that burned the outer layer of Manda's skin forcing him to shed it completely. So Kisame turns into fried fish.
> 
> ...


One does not need to rely on statements to prove why Jiriaya is stronger than Kissme. Simply evaluating their combat capabilities is enough imo

A few more stuff ill add to the argument but that will be later


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> One does not need to rely on statements to prove why Jiriaya is stronger than Kissme



Regularly cites the P1 statements

You only don't like statements when they shut down this ridiculous Jiraiya cancer that's rampant in the NBD.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Simply evaluating their combat capabilities is enough imo



Kisame blatantly has superior feats.

So I think it's pretty clear too.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> One does not need to rely on statements to prove why Jiriaya is stronger than Kissme



Regularly cites the P1 statements

You only don't like statements when they shut down this ridiculous Jiraiya cancer that's rampant in the NBD.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Simply evaluating their combat capabilities is enough imo



Kisame blatantly has superior feats.

So I think it's pretty clear too.


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## Turrin (Nov 29, 2018)

@

I admit maybe ignoring it isn’t the right word, but your certainly disregarding everything else in the manga and supplementary materials , besides 3 chapters where Kisame is heavily empowered and/or advantaged, for reasons I simply don’t agree with and therefore can’t entertain a discussion with you.  

And yes we’ve seen characters heavily empowered by Bijuu chakra yet not receive a cloak.  Two prime examples of this are when Naruto receives enough chakra from Kurama to counter Madara wood release and when Kakashi receives enough chakra from Kurama to warp B, in both cases nether of them get a shroud but both have their chakra enhanced drastically. Also when Naruro trains with Yamato, he uses a ton of Kyuubi chakra and only gains the shroud when he goes out of control. The shroud is only something that is gained if a Jin is in proper sync with said bijuu it it’s chakra, the reason the alliance was in sync is because Naruto was able to do that for them after mastering control over kyuubi chakra throughout the years, otherwise they wouldn’t have developed shrouds ether. 

Kisame like Kakashi and Naruro in the instances above just received the chakra out of nowhere and didn’t have time to train with it and sync hence him not developing a shroud, but still having his abilities massively enhanced as we saw with Kakashi and Naruto. 

In the case of the Gai fight he was enhanced by this and the topography. 

Again don’t know what else to say...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Turrin said:


> besides 3 chapters where Kisame is heavily empowered and/or advantaged, for reasons I simply don’t agree with and therefore can’t entertain a discussion with you.



5 times in this thread i've shown exactly why I don't do this.

Get the fuck out of my thread.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Fucking trolls in the NBD

but mods act like i'm the problem when I confront them.

"Oh Troy you can't hurt these bottom tier posters who are CLEARLY baiting you, their feelings might get hurt"

"But you have to eat shit from these kids all the time, fuck you troy"


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## Serene Grace (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Regularly cites the P1 statements
> 
> You only don't like statements when they shut down this ridiculous Jiraiya cancer that's rampant in the NBD.



Firstly, why you being so hostile? 

Lmao, you literally made a thread asking someone to make an actual argument on how Kisame beats Jiraiya without mention of part 1 statments. I did that now you're complaining about how I used part 1 statements in the past. 

Don't get triggered/salty when people make a post in a thread you made that you don't agree with

I cite part 1 statements because part 1 is in the manga whether you like it or not

Though funnily enough, in that argument I didn't even cite a single part 1 statement to prove to you that someone can make an argument highlighting why Jiriaya beats Kisame, hell @Shark did the same as well.



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Kisame blatantly has superior feats.
> 
> So I think it's pretty clear too.


Which is your opinion

And at this point I'm not even bothered to try and change it. Do you


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2018)




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## ShinAkuma (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Fucking trolls in the NBD
> 
> but mods act like i'm the problem when I confront them.
> 
> ...



You're off the hook homie.

I love it!


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Firstly, why you being so hostile?



"Jiraiya cancer" is not hostile.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Lmao, you literally made a thread asking someone to make an actual argument on how Kisame beats Jiraiya without mention of part 1 statments. I did that now you're complaining about how I used part 1 statements in the past.



Because the only reason you'd hold that opinion is if that statement was in the back of your mind, as there's VERY little evidence, if ANY besides that statement that Jiraiya is above Kisame.

In fact it's blatantly contradicted in P2 DIRECTLY.

You literally couldn't get anymore direct than Kisame challenging a Sannin killer, that's as a direct of a retcon as it gets.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Don't get triggered/salty when people make a post in a thread you made that you don't agree with



If what THEY agree with is blatantly untrue or retconned directly then yeah i'm gonna get a bit salty when I calmly explain why that isn't the case. If they keep holding that same opinion even if proven wrong UNQUESTIONABLY then yeah, salt starts coming out.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I cite part 1 statements because part 1 is in the manga whether you like it or not



It is, and I agree

But when statements or feats from P1 are directly contradicted later down the line YEARS later, only a fool would keep validating the outdated information. THAT takes some next level ignorance, and the Jiraiya camp is so guilty of that it makes me wonder how you guys aren't perma'd.

There's a difference between difference of opinion and being a troll.

The Jiraiya camp when they regularly say Itachi=Jiraiya and Jiraiya>>Kisame because of wildly outdated information that's contradicted later on are either trolling, and I don't want to say what the second option is because i'll get banned if I do.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Which is your opinion
> 
> And at this point I'm not even bothered to try and change it. Do you



If only I could stop getting so worked up and become a super mod so I could ban the Jiraiya fanbase in droves.

Blatant ignorance and an unwillingness to change when UNDENIABLY proven outright wrong should be grounds for a ban.

"Kisame challenged a Sannin killer, but he said this in P1 so he has no business stepping to him"

/perma ban, get your phone, PC and whatever hacked so u can never even load the NBD again.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> "
> The Jiraiya camp when they regularly say Itachi=Jiraiya and Jiraiya>>Kisame because of wildly outdated information that's contradicted later on



Ok hold on.

Now I admit I haven't read the manga front to back in a minute, so I might have missed something. (and if I have I'm sure you will let me know)

Kisame in part one speculated that he could not defeat Jiraiya. Where exactly did he contradict this or was this contradicted? A contradiction would require Kisame redacting what he said or Jiraiya admitting inferiority to Kisame or a 3rd party saying Kisame would body the fuck outta Jiraiya.

Viewing feats as a "contradiction" makes this conclusion a matter of opinion, which is why you find yourself dealing with so many "trolls" who disagree.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Where exactly did he contradict this or was this contradicted? A contradiction would require Kisame redacting what he said or Jiraiya admitting inferiority to Kisame or a 3rd party saying Kisame would body the fuck outta Jiraiya.



As I've stated

At least 2 separate times in this thread

He stepped to Hebi Sasuke, whom he knew killed Orochimaru, he was portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin.

He steps to this man plus his whole team

"If you insist on all going together, the kid gloves are coming off"- Kisame to Sasuke and Co.

If Kisame felt himself oh so inferior, he would not do this.

And he certainly wouldn't imply he can take a Sannin killer with kid gloves 

This is a direct retcon to his P1 statement.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

So no its not ONLY feats I view as having contradicted his P1 statements, it's his own statements compared to one another.

Get mad Sannin wankers.


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## Walterb (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Because 33% of Narutos reserves exceeded that paths 66% reserves
> 
> Does 33% of Jiraiyas hypeless and featless reserves exceed 66% of Kisames, which has hype from several people and the feats to back it up?
> 
> If your answer is anything but no, then you have no point and you should hush



You have it all wrong about sage chakra. It is not about who has the biggest reserves. Is about sage chakra being a fundamentally different kind of chakra, which cannot be handled by non-senjutsu users.

And Jiraiya can replenish chakra by absorbing it from nature, which means he can potentially increase it beyond kisame's limits.

Jiaiya can also use genjutsu against kisame. 

You ignored the part where even itachi said a two against one fight between them (kisame + itachi) and jiraiya would end in a stalemate.


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## Vice (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> As I've stated
> 
> At least 2 separate times in this thread
> 
> ...




These guys wanted to kill Itachi so clearly they must be Itachi level.

Dude, don't ask for something and then cry when you get it.

Reactions: Like 4


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 29, 2018)

I'm going to give you an honest response.



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> As I've stated
> 
> At least 2 separate times in this thread
> 
> He stepped to Hebi Sasuke, whom he knew killed Orochimaru, he was portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin.



He certainly did. And it is true Hebi Sauce killed Oro. That said do you honestly think that Oro was at full strength when he fought Sauce?

Also, not everybody would agree that Oro was portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin outside of Edo Tensei. During the war Tsunade looked impressive as well. Not going to bother mentioning Jiraiya stuff cause I'm sure you're well aware. The strongest Sannin is again a matter of opinion. (Oro with Edo is the strongest of the Sannin of course)

There is also a conflation here that Kisame thinks Oro is the strongest of the Sannin. We don't know what Kisame's opinion of Oro is. Maybe he has a higher opinion of Jiraiya?



> He steps to this man plus his whole team
> 
> "If you insist on all going together, the kid gloves are coming off"- Kisame to Sasuke and Co.
> 
> If Kisame felt himself oh so inferior, he would not do this.



Do not confuse a character's courage or conviction with a character's strength. Just because Kisame is willing to do something doesn't mean he is capable of doing it. Especially in this manga.

Kisame let himself get eaten by his own sharks. He has alot of conviction.

Let me put it this way - Madara himself could have been in team Hebi and Kisame would have changed nothing. Only Sasuke goes, nobody else.



> This is a direct retcon to his P1 statement.



It's not. Contradictions and retro active continuity are very specific and obvious. 

Your argument is based on opinions. 

I'm not saying you're wrong or right, just that with so much opinions on how you view Jiraiya/Kisame it makes sense that others would not agree.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Walterb said:


> You have it all wrong about sage chakra. It is not about who has the biggest reserves. Is about sage chakra being a fundamentally different kind of chakra, which cannot be handled by non-senjutsu users.



So Fukasaku is wrong, and we should take your Sannin wank subjective opinion over his right?

He states that if one takes in too much sage chakra, that they will be overwhelmed and turned into a stone toad.

He represents this on a graph for people to easily understand. 33.3% per different kind of energy, when they take in too much sage jutsu chakra (more than 33% of their total reserves) then it overwhelms them



Walterb said:


> You ignored the part where even itachi said a two against one fight between them (kisame + itachi) and jiraiya would end in a stalemate.



/sigh

No I didn't dude

I've addressed this 4 seperate times in this very thread and i'm fucking done okay, so fuck off with this point. Just fuck off.



Vice said:


> These guys wanted to kill Itachi so clearly they must be Itachi level.
> 
> Dude, don't ask for something and then cry when you get it.



I don't recall this scene from the fucking manga.

Even if it is, it's the equivalent of real life drunk dads saying they're gonna knock out Mike Tyson or Brock Lesnar. Just drunk bar shit talking.

Get a grip kiddo


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> He certainly did. And it is true Hebi Sauce killed Oro. That said do you honestly think that Oro was at full strength when he fought Sauce?



Disgusting.

I've already addressed this in this thread.

Yes it's true Oro was sick

But when the Akatsuki were talking about it, there was NO KNOWLEDGE OF HIS ILLNESS MADE EVIDENT

THEY DID NOT KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE FIGHT WHATSOEVER, THERE IS NO DIRECT STATEMENT OR IMPLICATION.



ShinAkuma said:


> Oro was portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin outside of Edo Tensei.



Jiraiya states that he wasn't strong enough to bring Orochimaru back

A blatant admission of inferiority.

And when the whole world is fucking blown away that Oro could be killed, it really says something.

Jiraiya only earned praise from Konoha relative to their respective ability to survive high capacity battles.

Oro was definitely portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin, it took two other Sannin to bring an armless Oro to his knees.

And the other Sannin's nerfs were either non factor (blood fear) or paled in comparison to Oro's (drugged Jiraiya).

Oro had the biggest nerfs and definitely held his own.



ShinAkuma said:


> The strongest Sannin is again a matter of opinion. (Oro with Edo is the strongest of the Sannin of course)



The only one you can argue is superior to ET-less Oro is SM Jiraiya.

Jiraiya threatens to kill Tsunade
Jiraiya admits inferiority to Orochimaru

As far as Jiraiya is concerned Orochimaru>Himself>Tsunade
As far as Oro is concerned, Himself>Jiraiya>Tsunade

Tsunade is the weakest of the Sannin, and her fellow Sannin confirm that.



ShinAkuma said:


> We don't know what Kisame's opinion of Oro is. Maybe he has a higher opinion of Jiraiya?



Kisame's PREVIOUS admission of inferiority is to the Sannin, not just Jiraiya. This means Orochimaru and Tsunade as well.

They all beat P1 Kisame, and I don't doubt this for a second.

And based on the way every Akatsuki was hunting Orochimaru like a dog, deeming him a threat to the Akatsuki's goals on his own definitely says something. In the Akatsuki's eyes, and by extension Kisame's, Orochimaru was the strongest.

Oro knew a lot about them, and he was dangerous to over half the group, even while armless being portrayed above Sasori. 

Not only that, Hiruzen describes MINATO as the only one who's capable of bringing Orochimaru down. Not Jiraiya
Not Tsunade
Minato

He didn't say "we need a fellow Sannin here to defend us"

He said "If Minato were around he would save us"

And as we know Jiraiya is blown away by Minato's portrayal.

Oro was portrayed on Minato's level, not Jiraiya's.

Get over it bruh.



ShinAkuma said:


> Do not confuse a character's courage or conviction with a character's strength. Just because Kisame is willing to do something doesn't mean he is capable of doing it. Especially in this manga.



Same goes to you, don't take Kisame's lack of confidence as him being incapable of doing it.

This point makes Sannin wankers furious, get mad kid.



ShinAkuma said:


> Let me put it this way - Madara himself could have been in team Hebi and Kisame would have changed nothing. Only Sasuke goes, nobody else.



And I really doubt Kisame is going to step to Madara fucking Uchiha with anything resembling confidence. 

And Madara would have been in hebi and said "Uhhh Sasuke, lets fuck this idiot"

He then lets Kisame tag him and bisects him when he Izanagi's.

Kisame has no business going toe to toe with an unrestricted Madara, Kisame knows this, Kishi knows this, I know this and you know this.



ShinAkuma said:


> Your argument is based on opinions.



Facts, but I suppose anything that's contrary to your opinion is deemed an opinion.

Because Sannin wankers are the epitome of credibility and unbiasness.



ShinAkuma said:


> just that with so much opinions on how you view Jiraiya/Kisame it makes sense that others would not agree.



The same people who don't agree haven't properly addressed even a quarter of my comments on the matchup

I've went out of my way and practically addressed theirs sentence by sentence?

What does THAT tell YOU?


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> , he was portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin.


When was he portrayed the strongest of the Sannin exactly?


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## Grinningfox (Nov 29, 2018)

Walterb said:


> You have it all wrong about sage chakra. It is not about who has the biggest reserves. Is about sage chakra being a fundamentally different kind of chakra, which cannot be handled by non-senjutsu users.
> 
> And Jiraiya can replenish chakra by absorbing it from nature, which means he can potentially increase it beyond kisame's limits.
> 
> ...



How do you reconcile that statement with Itachi wrecking Oro who is Jiraiyas’s peer?? I mean Oro outright states Itachi is too strong for him.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Hussain said:


> When was he portrayed the strongest of the Sannin exactly?



Gives 50000 reasons

"BUT WHERE THO"


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Gives 50000 reasons
> 
> "BUT WHERE THO"



link to your posts with the 50,000 reasons please.
I did not bother reading all the posts here...


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Hussain said:


> link to your posts with the 50,000 reasons please.
> I did not bother reading all the posts here...





MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> And based on the way every Akatsuki was hunting Orochimaru like a dog, deeming him a threat to the Akatsuki's goals on his own definitely says something. In the Akatsuki's eyes, and by extension Kisame's, Orochimaru was the strongest.
> 
> Oro knew a lot about them, and he was dangerous to over half the group, even while armless being portrayed above Sasori.
> 
> ...


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## Vice (Nov 29, 2018)

ITT: everyone admitting inferiority to someone else in the manga 100% counts except for Kisame admitting inferiority to Jiraiya despite having no reason to lie or ulterior motive as to why he would blatantly express that he's no match for Jiraiya other than to point out that he's no match for Jiraiya, because reasons.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

Vice said:


> ITT: everyone admitting inferiority to someone else in the manga 100% counts except for Kisame admitting inferiority to Jiraiya despite having no reason to lie or ulterior motive as to why he would blatantly express that he's no match for Jiraiya other than to point out that he's no match for Jiraiya, because reasons.



/sigh

I explained why his statement is perfectly valid right up until P2.

Where it's blatantly contradicted.

Whatever you're a nobody trash tier poster, to the ignore list you go.


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## Vice (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> /sigh
> 
> I explained why his statement is perfectly valid right up until P2.
> 
> ...



JIRAIYA ADMITTED HE WAS WEAKER THAN OROCHIMARU THAT TOTALLY COUNTS BECAUSE KISAME THO!

KISAME ADMITTED HE WAS WEAKER THAN JIRAIYA BUT THAT TOTALLY DOESN'T COUNT BECAUSE KISAME THO!

That's you. Crybaby.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Jiraiya states that he wasn't strong enough to bring Orochimaru back
> 
> A blatant admission of inferiority.
> 
> ...



1- Irrelevent. The battle happened years ago from the Part 1 time-line. We know that the Sannin were not at their full power seeing how they did not know about each others abilitis when they met again. Furthermore, a battle happening at one stage of their life does not determain the remaining of the rest of their lives. For example, Naruto also lost to Sasuke at the VOTE1, it did not stop him from being stronger than Sasuke later on. Asspulldara kept losing to Hashirama, but then ended up being stronger than him, and so on and so forth.

2- Don't know what you mean by that tbh.

3- lol @ nonfactor. By your logic, Oro's "nerf" is nonfactor either since all of his abilities are about snakes which he can use freely even without handseals (see his entire part 2 showing). So, all he lost was literally ET only. And Tsunade's problem was not only "fear of blood" she literally stopped  fighting as a Ninja for decades. She was rusty, and even then, she defeated Oro with 1 punch.



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Jiraiya threatens to kill Tsunade
> Jiraiya admits inferiority to Orochimaru
> 
> As far as Jiraiya is concerned Orochimaru>Himself>Tsunade
> ...



Except it's not portrayed as this. The initial portrayal is

Oro > Jiriaya > Tsunade > Oro.
And I am pretty sure you know that, but left it out for your own agendas. 



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Kisame's PREVIOUS admission of inferiority is to the Sannin, not just Jiraiya. This means Orochimaru and Tsunade as well.



Why can Kisame's power change, but not the Sannin?
in part 2, Jiraiya got SM something Oro never achived.

Oro lost effortlessly to itachi twice.
Meanwhile, Jiraiya took on the much stronger Pain, and even tho he was defeated, but his defeat was not as pathatic as Oro's defeat to a weaker opponent.

And we have seen Tsunade fighting Asspulldara, and fighting 5 Susanoos at the same time.

You try to show yourself as objective and care about feats and whatnot. Then why don't you say the same thing here and about how Jman and Tsunade's power got retconned as well and they are 2 tiers stronger than Oro seeing how their feats against Pain & Asspulldara are far superior to Oro against Hebi Sasuke and itachi?

Or you ignore that because it does not fit your agenda? 



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> And based on the way every Akatsuki was hunting Orochimaru like a dog, deeming him a threat to the Akatsuki's goals on his own definitely says something. In the Akatsuki's eyes, and by extension Kisame's, Orochimaru was the strongest.



lol no.

Oro was part of the Organization. I.E his importance comes from his KNOWELEDGE, not neccassirly his strength.



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Not only that, Hiruzen describes MINATO as the only one who's capable of bringing Orochimaru down. Not Jiraiya
> Not Tsunade



and Ibsu told Jiraiya that they need a Sannin to stop another Sannin, no?


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Disgusting.
> 
> I've already addressed this in this thread.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. However this line of reasoning is predicated on the idea that the Akatsuki believe Oro to be the strongest of the Sannin. There is no evidence of that. You feel that Oro is the strongest of the Sannin so you project that opinion when assessing this scenario.



> Jiraiya states that he wasn't strong enough to bring Orochimaru back



This is true, when Jiraiya was younger he wasn't strong enough to bring Oro back to the village.

Here's my question - What does that mean exactly? Does that mean Jiraiya is not capable of defeating Oro or that Jiraiya, who still considered Oro his friend and believed he would return to them, was not strong enough to force him back home? Because trying to subdue somebody and trying to kill them/defeat them are different things.

Do you believe they are one in the same?

Do you also believe that power level stay the same over the passage of time. There is alot Naruto could not do when he was a kid vs now.



> A blatant admission of inferiority.



When they were 18 in that circumstance, it sure was.

Do you believe that it remains infinitely relevant despite training or the passage of time?



> And when the whole world is fucking blown away that Oro could be killed, it really says something.



It sure does, except he wasn't killed....?



> Jiraiya only earned praise from Konoha relative to their respective ability to survive high capacity battles.



What?

Where do you get this?



> Oro was definitely portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin,



Repeating your opinion does not magically turn it into a fact.



> it took two other Sannin to bring an armless Oro to his knees.



Once Tsunade overcame her phobia she basically dominated him.



> And the other Sannin's nerfs were either non factor (blood fear) or paled in comparison to Oro's (drugged Jiraiya).



Here's that opnion thing I was talking about again.



> Oro had the biggest nerfs and definitely held his own.



He did.

He's a great ninja.



> The only one you can argue is superior to ET-less Oro is SM Jiraiya.



I haven't argued anything.

I'm arguing that you are offering opinions as facts.

They are not.

I don't care who the strongest Sannin is.



> Kisame's PREVIOUS admission of inferiority is to the Sannin, not just Jiraiya.



No, just Jiraiya.

He is one of the legendary 3. He is singling out Jiraiya, not all 3 Sannin.



> This means Orochimaru and Tsunade as well.



Also a strong argument can be made for Tsunade and Oro as superior to Kisame I'm sure!



> They all beat P1 Kisame, and I don't doubt this for a second.



There is no difference bewteen P1 and P2 Kisame.

Kisame knows what Kisame can do even if you don't.



> And based on the way every Akatsuki was hunting Orochimaru like a dog, deeming him a threat to the Akatsuki's goals on his own definitely says something. In the Akatsuki's eyes, and by extension Kisame's, Orochimaru was the strongest.



Speculation - thy name is MawDezrtarsh22!

This is just pure uncut speculation. Oro's strength level isn't the reason he was being hunted. It might be A reason, but his knowledge and resources are also big factors.



> Oro knew a lot about them, and he was dangerous to over half the group, even while armless being portrayed above Sasori.



Pretty sure this is anime only, but sure.



> Not only that, Hiruzen describes MINATO as the only one who's capable of bringing Orochimaru down. Not Jiraiya
> Not Tsunade
> Minato
> 
> ...



That's because Minato was the most recent hokage.

He also did not mention Hashirama.

Lack of inclusion is just an aspect of a no limits fallacy.

Also Minato outright stated that Jiraiya is the best ninja he's ever known.

HE MUST BE THE BEST EVER!



> Oro was portrayed on Minato's level, not Jiraiya's.
> 
> Get over it bruh.



I'm not stuck on your opinions so I have nothing to get over......bruh.



> Same goes to you, don't take Kisame's lack of confidence as him being incapable of doing it.



I didn't offer an opinion on Kisame's strength level. I neither said he could or could not do it.



> This point makes Sannin wankers furious, get mad kid.



Got salt?



> And I really doubt Kisame is going to step to Madara fucking Uchiha with anything resembling confidence.



In that instance he would.

He made a promise to Itachi. He will see it through. Any guy willing to get eaten by his own sharks has the conviction to do anything.

You seem to have a low opinion of Kisame.



> And Madara would have been in hebi and said "Uhhh Sasuke, lets fuck this idiot"
> 
> He then lets Kisame tag him and bisects him when he Izanagi's.
> 
> Kisame has no business going toe to toe with an unrestricted Madara, Kisame knows this, Kishi knows this, I know this and you know this.



Yes Madara would ass rape Kisame. I never argued otherwise.

Glad we agree on something.



> Facts, but I suppose anything that's contrary to your opinion is deemed an opinion.
> 
> Because Sannin wankers are the epitome of credibility and unbiasness.



I haven't offered an opinion.

Perhaps you're projecting again?



> The same people who don't agree haven't properly addressed even a quarter of my comments on the matchup
> 
> I've went out of my way and practically addressed theirs sentence by sentence?
> 
> What does THAT tell YOU?



Look, it's clear you have a history here and posters have a history with you.

I have offered legitimate points and have not argued what I believe, just your points. Your counter points devolved into a mess of "sanninwankery" or whatever.

If you want to have a legit discussion you must be willing to discuss things LEGITIMATELY. Simply pulling out a hard as diamonds shark cock for Kisame and screaming "wankery" is not a discussion. Not saying I don't love your style,(I do!) just it's difficult to have a discussion with.

I'm sure you think I'm just some Sannin wanker or whatever. It's cool.


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## Buuhan (Nov 29, 2018)

Grinningfox said:


> How do you reconcile that statement with Itachi wrecking Oro who is Jiraiyas’s peer?? I mean Oro outright states Itachi is too strong for him.


Its implied that Oro and Itachi had a prolonged fight after the initial encounter where it was frankly obvious the sannin placed himself in a disadvantageous spot. A fight between Oro and Itachi is going to be inherently different from one between Jman and ITachi because the two Sannin have different fighting styles and weaknesses. A>B>C does not work in the naruto manga all the time.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 29, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Its implied that Oro and Itachi had a prolonged fight after the initial encounter where it was frankly obvious the sannin placed himself in a disadvantageous spot. A fight between Oro and Itachi is going to be inherently different from one between Jman and ITachi because the two Sannin have different fighting styles and weaknesses. A>B>C does not work in the naruto manga all the time.



I’m totally aware of that Oro and Jman are different fighters but they ARE still peers and being able to beat either one of these guys is a good indicator that you’ll be able to beat the other.


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## Buuhan (Nov 29, 2018)

Grinningfox said:


> I’m totally aware of that Oro and Jman are different fighters but they ARE still peers and being able to beat either one of these guys is a good indicator that you’ll be able to beat the other.


That’s a>b>C logic


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## Grinningfox (Nov 29, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> That’s a>b>C logic



A>B>C Logic Isn’t all bad especially if it’s used in a supplemental fashion with other feats and lines  reasoning


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Fair enough. However this line of reasoning is predicated on the idea that the Akatsuki believe Oro to be the strongest of the Sannin. There is no evidence of that. You feel that Oro is the strongest of the Sannin so you project that opinion when assessing this scenario



Gave tons of evidence literally right after what u quoted.



ShinAkuma said:


> Does that mean Jiraiya is not capable of defeating Oro or that Jiraiya, who still considered Oro his friend and believed he would return to them, was not strong enough to force him back home? Because trying to subdue somebody and trying to kill them/defeat them are different things.



Naruto literally threatened to break every bone in Sasuke's body to bring him back
Jiraiya felt a similar friendship to Orochimaru
Stands to reason Jiraiya was taking this stance due to parallels and all that.
VOTE I Sasuke was blatantly stronger than Naruto, a small gap, but the gap was clearly there as Sasuke could walk away from VOTE. Naruto was KO'd.



ShinAkuma said:


> Do you also believe that power level stay the same over the passage of time. There is alot Naruto could not do when he was a kid vs now.



I believe Oro progressed further than Jiraiya, simply due to the fact that Jiraiya already had his full power at the time (SM) via flashbacks. Oro kept training and getting stronger, learning more ninjutsu and creating his own techniques. Jiraiya traveled the world writing books, retirement. Oro joined the Akatsuki, full of S-rank criminals and Rinnegan wielding globalists. He HAD to get stronger to be one of the stronger ones.



ShinAkuma said:


> Do you believe that it remains infinitely relevant despite training or the passage of time?



Unless it's contradicted, yes.

No later feats or hype indicate that Jiraiya surpassed Orochimaru, in fact just the opposite...



ShinAkuma said:


> What?
> 
> Where do you get this?



You mean besides Konoha being the only ones surprised that Jiraiya fell against Pein?



ShinAkuma said:


> Once Tsunade overcame her phobia she basically dominated him.



While he was still nerfed, they were no longer on an even playing field

I believe Tsunade beats Oro when both are at full capacity due to MATCHUP, not because she's stronger than him. He beats faaaaaaaaaar more opponents than she does 1v1.

Right up until Totsuka blade, in a straight fight, Oro could arguably beat Itachi. I'd like to see someone push that Tsunade beats Itachi without Totsuka.



ShinAkuma said:


> I'm arguing that you are offering opinions as facts.



Brings undeniable canon feats and statements as backup

"DATS UR UHPINION THOOOOOO"



ShinAkuma said:


> No, just Jiraiya.
> 
> He is one of the legendary 3. He is singling out Jiraiya, not all 3 Sannin.



He compares the respective titles of Seven Swordsman of the Mist, The Uchiha clan and The Sannin, saying his and Itachi's pale in comparison to the Sannin's.

Not Jiraiya specifically.



ShinAkuma said:


> There is no difference bewteen P1 and P2 Kisame.



Kishi begs to differ.

I'll take his word over subjective "DURR SANNIN ARE DUH BEZT IN DUH MANGA DURRRRRR"



ShinAkuma said:


> This is just pure uncut speculation. Oro's strength level isn't the reason he was being hunted. It might be A reason, but his knowledge and resources are also big factors.



It also means he's strong enough to impede the Akatsuki's goals.

He's strong enough to beat Sasori while armless.

No it's not just uncut speculation, there's on panel statements and feats backing me up.

Get mad kid.



ShinAkuma said:


> Pretty sure this is anime only, but sure.







ShinAkuma said:


> That's because Minato was the most recent hokage.
> 
> He also did not mention Hashirama.
> 
> ...



Because Hashirama's power too was a retcon, as Hiruzen was called the strongest even above Hashi in P1.
Then it went to Minato.

Kishi was all over the fkn place.

Minato believed in Jiraiya's philosophy, this is a well documented thing.

Unless you ACTUALLY believe Jiraiya beat JJ Obito, since Obito said Jiraiya beat him.

It was his philosophy that beat him.

Minato followed Jiraiya's path in terms of philosophy, of COURSE he would hold him way high up.

And that doesn't change that Jiraiya saw Minato far above him.



ShinAkuma said:


> 'm not stuck on your opinions so I have nothing to get over......bruh.



Actual statements and feats.

"ITZ UR OPINION OMG DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"



ShinAkuma said:


> In that instance he would.
> 
> He made a promise to Itachi.



LOL

Kisame is not fucking dying willingly for Itachi.

Kisame's goal is above Itachi's life in his mind. He LITERALLY dies for his cause.

He's not gonna rush into suicide because Itachi says so.

And since you and Turrin love the non-canon Novels.

What about when Kisame threatens to kill Itachi if he gets in the way of the Akatsuki?

Kisame's loyalty is to Obito's Akatsuki's goals, as he himself states upon being recruited by Obito, read the manga kiddo.



ShinAkuma said:


> If you want to have a legit discussion you must be willing to discuss things LEGITIMATELY. Simply pulling out a hard as diamonds shark cock for Kisame and screaming "wankery" is not a discussion. Not saying I don't love your style,(I do!) just it's difficult to have a discussion with.
> 
> I'm sure you think I'm just some Sannin wanker or whatever. It's cool.



Show me then kid, show me where I did this before I started getting insulted.

Turrin started accusing me of blatantly untrue shit, so I fired back.

I was perfectly respectful up until that point, and addressed everything while he flung shit.

Read the fucking thread.


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## Buuhan (Nov 29, 2018)

Grinningfox said:


> A>B>C Logic Isn’t all bad especially if it’s used in a supplemental fashion with other feats and lines  reasoning


Problem being feats show that Jiriya can actually fight itachi on equal terms. So it really doesn’t work unless you talk about really obvious cases.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 29, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Problem being feats show that Jiriya can actually fight itachi on equal terms. So it really doesn’t work unless you talk about really obvious cases.



I think Itachi has too many tools that can incap Jiraiya to say that ONE of them won’t connect. 


I don’t want it derail this thread so if you wanna talk more about it (I’m down) then let’s take it somewhere more appropriate


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## Buuhan (Nov 29, 2018)

Grinningfox said:


> I think Itachi has too many tools that can incap Jiraiya to say that ONE of them won’t connect.
> 
> 
> I don’t want it derail this thread so if you wanna talk more about it (I’m down) then let’s take it somewhere more appropriate


Well that’s a matter of opinion, but sure. I’ll make a thread at some point.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Gave tons of evidence literally right after what u quoted.



You gave evidence that the Akatsuki considered Oro the strongest of the sannin?



> Naruto literally threatened to break every bone in Sasuke's body to bring him back
> Jiraiya felt a similar friendship to Orochimaru



I'm sure it was the same.

What would breaking Oro's bones amount to do you think?



> Stands to reason Jiraiya was taking this stance due to parallels and all that.
> VOTE I Sasuke was blatantly stronger than Naruto, a small gap, but the gap was clearly there as Sasuke could walk away from VOTE. Naruto was KO'd.



Naruto ended up as stronger than Sasuke.

Are the parallels valid or not?



> I believe Oro progressed further than Jiraiya, simply due to the fact that Jiraiya already had his full power at the time (SM) via flashbacks. Oro kept training and getting stronger, learning more ninjutsu and creating his own techniques. Jiraiya traveled the world writing books, retirement. Oro joined the Akatsuki, full of S-rank criminals and Rinnegan wielding globalists. He HAD to get stronger to be one of the stronger ones.



You believe = opinion.

Which is fine, but when others have a contrary opinion they aren't automatically trolling you.





> Unless it's contradicted, yes.
> 
> No later feats or hype indicate that Jiraiya surpassed Orochimaru, in fact just the opposite...



Again, your opinion.

Some would say Jiraiya's Sage Mode surpassed Oro.



> You mean besides Konoha being the only ones surprised that Jiraiya fell against Pein?



Ok maybe I'm not clear enough.

Where do you think Kisame heard about Jiraiya? Hanging out at the Konoha gossip club? Obviously Jiraiya's reputation gets around and not just from Konoha peeps.



> While he was still nerfed, they were no longer on an even playing field



I thought you said Tsunade's nerf did't matter?

Look you don't get to have it both ways. You can't be like "Oro did great cause Tsunade's nerfs was irrelevant" and then be all "it's not fair when she lost her nerf".

Obviously her nerf was extremely relevant because she went from useless to force feeding Oro that big Tsunade cock.

GET MAD WOOOOOOOOOOO



> I believe Tsunade beats Oro when both are at full capacity due to MATCHUP, not because she's stronger than him. He beats faaaaaaaaaar more opponents than she does 1v1.



Sure....?



> Right up until Totsuka blade, in a straight fight, Oro could arguably beat Itachi. I'd like to see someone push that Tsunade beats Itachi without Totsuka.



Look, she beats Kisame. That's all that matters.



> Brings undeniable canon feats and statements as backup
> 
> "DATS UR UHPINION THOOOOOO"



Your interpretation of "undeniable canon feats and statements" is just an opinion.



> He compares the respective titles of Seven Swordsman of the Mist, The Uchiha clan and The Sannin, saying his and Itachi's pale in comparison to the Sannin's.
> 
> Not Jiraiya specifically.



Kiriu   (斬生)

"With him as our enemy"



> Kishi begs to differ.
> 
> I'll take his word over subjective "DURR SANNIN ARE DUH BEZT IN DUH MANGA DURRRRRR"



So would I.

Pretty sure Kishi wrote this;

Kiriu   (斬生)



> It also means he's strong enough to impede the Akatsuki's goals.
> 
> He's strong enough to beat Sasori while armless.
> 
> No it's not just uncut speculation, there's on panel statements and feats backing me up.



Let me make this very clear for you, just so you are not confused.

At no point anywhwere in the manga did the Akatsuki indicate that Orochimaru was the strongest Sannin.

Never Fucking Happened.



> Get mad kid.



WOOOOOOOOOOOOO




> Because Hashirama's power too was a retcon,



You guys and you're inability to understand what a retcon is.



> as Hiruzen was called the strongest even above Hashi in P1.



By Iruka?



> Then it went to Minato.



Maybe Iruka didn't know about Minato? lol



> Kishi was all over the fkn place.



He certainly was, but that doesn't mean everything he established was changed.



> Minato believed in Jiraiya's philosophy, this is a well documented thing.



Minato said Ninja, not belief system.



> Unless you ACTUALLY believe Jiraiya beat JJ Obito, since Obito said Jiraiya beat him.
> 
> It was his philosophy that beat him.
> 
> ...



They both saw each other as amazing ninjas.

When Jiraiya says he can't bring Oro back = ORO IS STRONGER IN EVERY SCENARIO UNTIL THE END OF TIME

When Minato says Jiraiya is the greatest ninja he ever knew - HE'S ONLY TALKING ABOUT PHILOSOPHY

When Kisame says he's inferior to Jiraiya - HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE SANNIN.....NO WAIT.....IT"S BEEN RETCONNED.....IT DOESN'T COUNT

The point is you don't get to pick and choose context when it suits your agenda. (Jiraiya not strong enough to bring Oro back / Minato saying Jiraiya is the best)

I mean you can, I don't give a darn, but expect people to call you out on it.



> Actual statements and feats.
> 
> "ITZ UR OPINION OMG DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"



Statements?

When did Kisame say he was stronger than Jman? I know we have the opposite.....



> LOL
> 
> Kisame is not fucking dying willingly for Itachi.



Fine..whatever lol



> And since you and Turrin love the non-canon Novels.



I fucking love em. I just read one titled "Kisame vs TEH WORLD" written by.....MawDezrtarsh22...? Not sure who he is, must be new to the fanfic scene. Anyway....in it Kisame is running an anal train on all the Sannin. It was hilarious.

The guy who wrote it....fucking ROCK HARD for Kisame. Gotta give the guy props, he knows what he likes!



> What about when Kisame threatens to kill Itachi if he gets in the way of the Akatsuki?



Kisame gave his word to Itachi that only Sasuke proceeds.

I believe that Kisame will keep his word. Maybe you don't. Regardless it's not relevant.



> Show me then kid, show me where I did this before I started getting insulted.



Look I ain't fucking digging through your posting history to show you shit. You know and they know what has happened in the past.

If you want to tell me you're completely innocent I will accepted at you word and start reading the sequel to "Kisame vs TEH WORLD" titled "Kisame: Unjustly Jailed".



> Read the fucking thread.



I've known Turrin for a long time. He's pretty easy to deal with.

Don't know what to tell you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Nov 29, 2018)

I want to participate in this debate but I'm not sure if OP still has me on ignore. 

Someone find out for me.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 29, 2018)

There's no argument.
Kisame beats him on all fronts, and Jiraiya's only chance is landing an out-of-character Frog Song. He would be taken down before that happens.


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## Mori Jin (Nov 29, 2018)

Kisame is definitely losing this one 10/10. 

Taijutsu (enhanced by sage mode) > Kisame's thing.

Ninjutsu advantage > Kisame's thing, burning oil cooks his fish stick alive.

Can't absorb Sage Jutsu without turning into a frog (plus he doesn't have the feats nor portrayal that he could handle it).

Summons >>>

Doesn't have the benefit of absorbing bijuu chakra to boost his ninjutsu, so no water dome. 

Jiraiya will be having fish sticks or soup, in about 30- 35minutes, (this includes cooking time).


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 29, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I want to participate in this debate but I'm not sure if OP still has me on ignore.
> 
> Someone find out for me.


Gotchu 

@MawDezrtarsh22

You see this quote?


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> You gave evidence that the Akatsuki considered Oro the strongest of the sannin?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whatever dude go fuck yourself, you're disregarding EVERY argument I put forth with "LOLJUSTUROPINIONTHO"

Fuck off.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I want to participate in this debate but I'm not sure if OP still has me on ignore.
> 
> Someone find out for me.



I would say go ahead and post for the benefit of the readers, but then again only the OP and @King Itachi 
are deluded with this alleged Kisame's strength.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2018)

But damn, 20 users are on this thread! I am impressed tbh!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vice (Nov 29, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I want to participate in this debate but I'm not sure if OP still has me on ignore.
> 
> Someone find out for me.



You could just headbutt a wall, you're likely to get similar results.


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## A Optimistic (Nov 29, 2018)

Hussain said:


> I would say go ahead and post for the benefit of the readers, but then again only the OP and @King Itachi
> are deluded with this alleged Kisame's strength.



Nah it's okay, I can tell OP is about to lose his temper and I don't wanna be involved when that happens. I'll find some other battledome thread to flex in.


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## narut0ninjafan (Nov 29, 2018)

The salt in this thread


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## Blaze Release (Nov 29, 2018)

While not taking sides i can at times understand Troyse frustration because some of the arguments here do not make sense and people keep repeating the same argument over and over again.

1. Jiraiya nearly one shotted Kisame if not for Itachi.
It amazes (actually doesn't) how people managed to reached this conclusion.
From memory, when the jutsu was initiated.
It was Itachi who was standing closer to the exit.
It was itachi who called kisame to follow him.
It makes perfect sense that the person who was closer to the exit will be the one who uses their jutsu to escape.
That is exactly what happened and i very much doubt that if roles were reversed and it was kisame who was closer to the exit thus escaping, people would say itachi would've been 1 shotted but for kisame.
Perhaps if kisame had initiated a jutsu and it failed in that instance, then perhaps an argument can be made as to why he would've been 1 shotted. Baffling how people has come to this conclusion. I will also add that the amaterasu usage was symbolic, rather than necessary. Prior to this Jiraiya believed he could take both itachi/Kisame. However upon having his fire breathing toad stomach that he was convinced was undefeatable burned by an unknown fire jutsu moments later, he understood that these guys are no champs and admitted to naruto that he barely managed to hold them off. Again, baffling how such a simple scene/message can elude so many for so long.

2. Kisame will turn into a stone/frog if he absorbs senjutsu.
This is false reasoning.
Firstly whilst kisame can indeed absorb chakra on his own, however his main way of absorbing chakra is through samahada.
Therefore if samahada was to absorb senjutsu it will be samahada who turns to stone and not kisame.
But i do not believe kisame is going to turn to stone/frog.
From my memory in order to become a sage one of the prerequisite is for the person to have a large reserve.
Something kisame has.
Now in order for a user of senjutsu to gain frog like characteristics and eventually turn to stone is if they haven't managed to balance senjutsu. Lets take what naruto did to preta path.
Naruto can perfectly balance his senjutsu.
However naruto took a gamble which paid off.
In the instance where he was locked by preta path, he decided not to perfectly balance his chakra unlike before and absorbed a far greater amount of natural energy than what his chakra would allow him to balance knowing that preta would absorb this highly unbalanced senjutsu chakra. If preta path had not absorbed it, it would've been naruto who wouldve turned to a frog and eventually into stone. Likewise if naruto had perfectly balanced the senjutsu chakra it wouldn't have had any effect on preta path. It was naruto's cunningness to absorb a stupid amount of natural energy making his senjutsu chakra unbalanced.

What i am saying is that there is no danger to a person when they absorb senjutsu chakra that is also perfectly balanced and we even saw this with madara and neither is there going to be an effect on them when they absorb senjutsu jutsu's. We have seen preta absorb both nauto and jiraiya's senjutsu enhanced ninjutsu with no effect.

The slight difference is that jiraiya not being able to perfectly balance his chakra unlike naruto/hashirama actually puts him at an advantage. We know that jiraiya does undergo a transformation, however nothing too drastic therefore lets assume his senjutsu chakra is 60% natural energy and 40% chakra. This may pose a troblem to another character who can absorb chakra, however i do believe that even though jiraiya's senjutsu chakra isn't perfectly balanced, the fact that his transformation isn't too drastic suggests that he too can have his chakra absorbed without detrimental effects to the person who absorbed his chakra. Added to this, kisame own chakra volume would most likely be too great for jiraiya's slightly unbalanced senjutsu chakra to topple his and thus becoming a stone.

But i do not believe jiraiya needs sm to defeat kisame and i feel a fight between sm jiraiya and kisame would end in a mid diff fight.

Base jiraiya vs kisame is much more interesting and an argument can be made for either.
Jiraiya gets the slight edge as his jutsu are trickier.


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## Mawt (Nov 29, 2018)

Azula said:


> 2) *Toads summons have metal weapons and armor that cannot be absorbed*. Part 1 mini toad stopped Kisame with a metal armor on his arm. That's the difference between trained combat ready toad Summons and dumb Ponta. Any single Boss sized summon will be a major problem for Kisame. They are bigger than even the wall of sharks, their metal weapon and armor render Samehada useless against it. One strike of Gamabunta's sword pinned down Manda, ripped off Shukaku's arm and Gamakichi was deflecting Juubi army's spikes. One hit from their weapons will kill Kisame and Samehada, or break it in half.


Samurai also wear armor. Does that mean Kisame can't get through them? 

Any Kage level can easily maneuver around summons. Samehada only needs to bite a Boss Summon/hit impale them with a spike for a few seconds for it to completely drain them. And Daikodan hard counters Boss Summons too.


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## Turrin (Nov 29, 2018)

Blaze Release said:


> While not taking sides i can at times understand Troyse frustration because some of the arguments here do not make sense and people keep repeating the same argument over and over again.
> 
> 1. Jiraiya nearly one shotted Kisame if not for Itachi.
> It amazes (actually doesn't) how people managed to reached this conclusion.
> ...


Amaterasu was used because it was the only technique fast enough bar Susanoo which had a heavier toll on Itachi that could save them from the stomach in time. Honestly what else could they have done, all of Kisames large suitors take time to set up, as he needs to spit up a huge water source to fuel them first. Their wasn’t time to don’t this as the walls of flesh were already closing in. And as much as the symbolism of Amaterasu buring the toad stomach holds, so does he symbolism in the fact that kisame said he couldn’t  do anything meaningful against Jiraiya who was totally out of his league, while Itachi could, which is exactly what we saw. Kisame couldn’t do anything when he encountered Jiraiya jutsu.

And this also fits Jiraiya and Kisamd portray even further in Part 2 considering kishimoto has another junior Akatuski partner in this case the junior partner of the leader himself be unable to do anything in the face of Jiraiya jutsu again, and need to be saved just like Kisame by a senior member, in this case Pain

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 29, 2018)

Blaze Release said:


> While not taking sides i can at times understand Troyse frustration because some of the arguments here do not make sense and people keep repeating the same argument over and over again.
> 
> 1. Jiraiya nearly one shotted Kisame if not for Itachi.
> It amazes (actually doesn't) how people managed to reached this conclusion.
> ...



Jiraiya was placed tiers above Kisame in part 1. I don't think him one shotting Kisame in part 1 is a stretch at all, especially given the situation favored him in terms of location. Kisame was paralleled to Kakashi by Itachi, who we know in part 1 based off portrayal and feats was a nobody compared to the sannin. Having to fight Orochimaru nearly made him shit himself(we're given the implication that if Orochimaru actually tried, Kakashi could have done nothing to stop him) and Jiraiya noted Kakashi wasn't capable of taking care of Naruto in terms of protection/training him to the point of being able to combat the akatsuki. 

Kisame outright admitted inferiority to Jiraiya, when the wall was closing in on them and Itachi still hadn't freed them, he looked to Itachi to free them instead of doing anything himself and when they ran away he commented that Itachi would be the one who could take down Jiraiya.

You can certainly argue in part 2 Kishimoto changed his mind, but part 1? I don't think there's a contest between the two. Based off statements/portrayal and feats combined.

Comparing part 1 to part 2, in part 1 Itachi said Kisame can't take down Kakashi quickly like he could. Kisame says he's inferior to Jiraiya. He looks to Itachi to save him from Jiraiya, and says he's the one that would have to beat him. 

Part 2? Itachi sits on the sidelines as Kisame single handedly takes down bijuu/jinchuuriki. Kisame goes by himself to fight a perfect jinchuuriki in Bee.  It's clear there's some form of power difference in part 1 and part 2 for Kisame. The gap between him and the sannin clearly no where near as large.

But part 1? Yeah, based off everything we're shown and told, Jiraiya one shotting him with having the location advantage is more than believable. Just as Orochimaru would have painted the walls with Kakashi's blood.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Whatever dude go fuck yourself, you're disregarding EVERY argument I put forth with "LOLJUSTUROPINIONTHO"
> 
> Fuck off.



LMAO

Let's see what I said;



ShinAkuma said:


> You gave evidence that the Akatsuki considered Oro the strongest of the sannin?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can't be fucking serious.

I'm sorry I obliterated your double standard goalpost moving nonsense. I'm sorry I pointed out your "opinion" when that's what they fucking are. Stop fucking pretending you're some sort of victim of a Jiraiya conspiracy to keep Kisame down and make a fucking relevant argument that is intellectually honest.

You can't have a legitimate discussion if you refuse to discuss a subject LEGITIMATELY.

I still love your trollish ways tho!


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## Troyse22 (Nov 29, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> LMAO
> 
> Let's see what I said;
> 
> ...




"I believe this because /50000 reasons" is no longer an opinion, I believe it because there's loads of substance backing it.

You quote my first words in a paragraph way out of context.

Time for you to crawl back to wherever you came from, you won't last here

Reactions: Like 2


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 29, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> "I believe this because /50000 reasons" is no longer an opinion, I believe it because there's loads of substance backing it.



It is when your 50000 "reasons" is "I'm hard as fuck for Kisame and I hate Jiraiya"


> Time for you to crawl back to wherever you came from, you won't last here



I had to return. Felt a shark like disturbance in the force. It sent me visions of goal post moving double standard wankery shaped like a shark with an erection attempting to penetrate a toad.

Truly bizarre when you think about....like something you would see on 4chan....

Anyway.......

It must be stopped.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Vice (Nov 29, 2018)

>give me reasons why Jiraiya can beat Kisame
>reasons are given as to why Jiraiya can beat Kisame
>I don't like these answers you stupid fucking ignorant trolls, fuck you and stop posting in my topics you bunch of idiot dumbfuck shit-tier posters. For real tho, why does everyone always bully me and mods don't ever care?

This dude...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Azula (Nov 29, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Samurai also wear armor. Does that mean Kisame can't get through them?



"Can't get through them" Yes he can't, refering to stealing chakra from them. Gai was also stopping Samehada with his weapon.

He lost because Kisame's physical strength was greater.

Toads don't have to worry about losing to physical strength, they are literally not human but giant toads.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Any Kage level can easily maneuver around summons



No, they can't. In the manga it's summons who are shown maneuvering around others.

Gamabunta easily dodging and countering Shukaku's attacks.
Manda countering Jiraiya's attacks.

Jiraiya would be also be guiding the summon so it's two Kages fighting it out.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Samehada only needs to bite a Boss Summon/hit impale them with a spike for a few seconds for it to completely drain them.



Samehada is extremely tiny relative to them to be of any threat to them.

They would cover far greater distance in a single leap than Samehada can extend. How is Samehada even getting close to them? What will Samehada do if it gets hit by them weapons? Remember the weapons' feats- punching a hole in Manda's head, cutting off Shukaku's arm, impaling Cerebus, splitting it in two. One hits from them will destroy Samehada or at the very least do major damage to it.

And Summons are too big to be drained quickly, remember physical distance matters for chakra absorption and their greater strength means they can always grab Samehada and throw it away like you deal with an annoying mosquito.

But as I said before the scenario of Samehada grabbing the summon is unrealistic in the first place.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> And Daikodan hard counters Boss Summons too.



Every Boss summon can jump so high they can tower over Juubi's head. That means that they easily dodge it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 30, 2018)

> Troy insults and talks down to @ShinAkuma 
> @ShinAkuma  "Likes" that post

No chill 

Dont know who this person is but I gotta say they entertain


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 30, 2018)

Kisame never admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. The collective SSOM and the Uchiha Clan collectively were compared to the collective Sannin. And that's a bullshit statement he relied on Itachi's info bank to conclude - someone who's a pathological liar. The second he beat Oro that joke of a statement was bound to be a lie. And the fact latter blatantly admits he's leagues above him in strength. Not saying Kisame >> Jiraiya but relying on that controversial inferiority admissory statement alone makes literally no sense.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Nov 30, 2018)

Vice said:


> >give me reasons why Jiraiya can beat Kisame
> >reasons are given as to why Jiraiya can beat Kisame
> >I don't like these answers you stupid fucking ignorant trolls, fuck you and stop posting in my topics you bunch of idiot dumbfuck shit-tier posters. For real tho, why does everyone always bully me and mods don't ever care?
> 
> This dude...



tbh, I am surprised seeing you here... 
I remember you from years ago but did not expect to see you again 
What made you come to this thread? lol


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## Santoryu (Nov 30, 2018)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Jiraiya was placed tiers above Kisame in part 1. I don't think him one shotting Kisame in part 1 is a stretch at all, especially given the situation favored him in terms of location. Kisame was paralleled to Kakashi by Itachi, who we know in part 1 based off portrayal and feats was a nobody compared to the sannin.



And yet, Kabuto ( apparently Kakashi level), posed a credible threat to a rusty Tsunade. She later went on to note that his instincts and jutsu sharpness may surpass her prime (I am aware that she was referring to the jutsu).



~Kakashi~ said:


> Having to fight Orochimaru nearly made him shit himself(we're given the implication that if Orochimaru actually tried, Kakashi could have done nothing to stop him)



That's partially due to Orochimaru's killing intent which Ibiki refers to. We later see Kakashi engaging a stronger opponent in Itachi. There was no doubt a sizeable gap between the Sannin and Kakashi, but perhaps it's exaggerated a tad bit.


Kisame noted that Kakashi was "holding his own" against Itachi.
Itachi felt compelled to use Tsukiyomi against Kakashi in order to end the fight quickly.
Itachi is significantly stronger than Orochimaru, yet Kakashi, offered some form of resistance.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 30, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> And yet, Kabuto ( apparently Kakashi level), posed a credible threat to a rusty Tsunade. She later went on to note that his instincts and jutsu sharpness may surpass her prime (I am aware that she was referring to the jutsu).



And after Tsunade got over her fear of blood and got her will back, despite being so rusty, she dominated the fight and forced them to retreat, as she should have. Kabuto beat up on a Tsunade who didn't really care about anything. 



> That's partially due to Orochimaru's killing intent which Ibiki refers to. We later see Kakashi engaging a stronger opponent in Itachi. There was no doubt a sizeable gap between the Sannin and Kakashi, but perhaps it's exaggerated a tad bit.
> 
> 
> Kisame noted that Kakashi was "holding his own" against Itachi.
> ...



I've reread the entire Kakashi vs Itachi fight(viz translation) and there's nothing about Kisame saying Kakashi is holding his own vs Itachi. He notes that his mastery of his (the mist's) village's techniques are impressive, but that's it. 

And Itachi practically one shots Kakashi, and during their very brief ninjutsu battle clearly held the upper hand. Itachi was never in any danger in the fight, just as Orochimaru wouldn't have been. It's also worth noting that Kakashi had backup in his fight vs Itachi, and from the very beginning when it was just Asuma and Kurenai, Itachi noted he didn't want reinforcements arriving. 

Calling what Kakashi was doing vs Itachi "some form of resistance" I guess is technically accurate, and Kakashi probably could have fought for a bit vs 3T Itachi, but again, the gap was clear even before tsukuyomi was brought in.

Will say having to save Kurenai certainly didn't do Kakashi any favors. That exploding bunshin clearly did some kind of damage to him. But Kishi always felt the need to screw Kakashi in every fight he had by either forcing him to have to protect someone or pulling out some BS by the enemy(looking at you, Asura path, still moving after being crushed, and this after Choza and Chouji showed up after Kakashi had probably set up a killing blow vs Deva and ruined that plan too).


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## Troyse22 (Nov 30, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> > Troy insults and talks down to @ShinAkuma
> > @ShinAkuma  "Likes" that post
> 
> No chill
> ...



Being told everything that's a canon fact is a "subjective opinion" isn't me being talked down too.

Trash double standards.

I didn't get volatile until I started getting insulted and 2/3rds of my post were being ignored.

Didn't think you could be so easily manipulated by Jiraiya wankers 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh Oro said Sasuke is<him and Oro according to Jiraiya wankers was portrayed=Oro so Sasuke>Jiraiya and that's why ur going along with Jiraiya wank right now

Had to connect the dots a little, but I arrived at the only non-insulting conclusion to your conduct.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 30, 2018)

Troy has a point. I'm indifferent to Kisame but most of his opposers don't even touch a 2/3 of his argument as if that's undebateable yet repeat the same thing explained in detail a page ago.  Not dissing anyone but ignoring one's post is the worst insult to any debater.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Being told everything that's a canon fact is a "subjective opinion" isn't me being talked down too.
> 
> Trash double standards.
> 
> ...



Detective MawDezrtarsh22 with another bust!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Nov 30, 2018)

~Kakashi~ said:


> And after Tsunade got over her fear of blood and got her will back, despite being so rusty, she dominated the fight and forced them to retreat, as she should have. Kabuto beat up on a Tsunade who didn't really care about anything.



Yes, but I was not referring to when he exploited her phobia. I'm referring to what happened before that. Tsunade thought it was impressive. The author thought it was impressive.




~Kakashi~ said:


> I've reread the entire Kakashi vs Itachi fight(viz translation) and there's nothing about Kisame saying Kakashi is holding his own vs Itachi. He notes that his mastery of his (the mist's) village's techniques are impressive, but that's it.



The only way this can be resolved is if we get a native Japanese speaker to translate. I believe there is such a oerson on the forum.

I'll also add that Itachi highly praised Kakashi's use of the Sharingan.



~Kakashi~ said:


> And Itachi practically one shots Kakashi, and during their very brief ninjutsu battle clearly held the upper hand. Itachi was never in any danger in the fight, just as Orochimaru wouldn't have been. It's also worth noting that Kakashi had backup in his fight vs Itachi, and from the very beginning when it was just Asuma and Kurenai, Itachi noted he didn't want reinforcements arriving.



The "backup" works against your point because Kakashi expended chakra by saving Asuma, and he later put himself in danger to save Kurenai. They did nothing to assist him whatsoever. 

Itachi one shot Orochimaru with 3TS.



~Kakashi~ said:


> Calling what Kakashi was doing vs Itachi "some form of resistance" I guess is technically accurate, and Kakashi probably could have fought for a bit vs 3T Itachi, but again, the gap was clear even before tsukuyomi was brought in..



Not denying any of this, but my point is that if Kakashi perform against like this against Itachi, he should theoretically be able to do better against weaker characters, even from a portrayal perspective .


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 30, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Being told everything that's a canon fact is a "subjective opinion" isn't me being talked down too.
> 
> Trash double standards.
> 
> ...


What the fuck are you talking about?

Im talking about your behaviour toward one another, not defending or agreeing with anything EITHER of you said.

Jesus Troy you really cant make it through one post without making up a tangent about who youre repying to can you?


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 30, 2018)

Cute spite neg there @MawDezrtarsh22 

Ironically you told me to "read the thread and stop being a jerk" when youre the one who made shit up about me 

But the hypocrisy is nothing i don't expect anymore


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## Troyse22 (Nov 30, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cute spite neg there @MawDezrtarsh22
> 
> Ironically you told me to "read the thread and stop being a jerk" when youre the one who made shit up about me
> 
> But the hypocrisy is nothing i don't expect anymore



Because i've been nothing but insulted, and my arguments have been ignored in this thread, and yet you act like everyone else is oh so innocent and this is just me attacking posters without cause.

Don't fucking insult me if you don't wanna hear something back, and stop supporting the people who are baiting me, oh wait ur one of those too so I can't say I blame u for supporting them.

Nothing ironic here, getting told everything I present with evidence is merely an opinion

"Look this was stated, there's on panel information proving it"

"JUST UR OPINION LULREKT"

And u wonder why I get irritated.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 30, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Because i've been nothing but insulted


Not by me

So stow that shit


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> my arguments have been ignored


Not by me

Ironically you haven't replied to MY arguments in this thread


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> you act like everyone else is oh so innocent


I dobt act like anything troy

Where do you see me saying either you OR akuma are in the right?

NOWHERE

I just said it was fucking funny to watch

So again with you making shit up and not actually reading what I said


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Don't fucking insult me


I didnt

I said you were talking down to akuma, which you did, REGARDLESS of if they also talked down to you, and akuma then liked that post which i found funny.

Wheres the insult troy?

Stop fucking playing the victim 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Nothing ironic here


Loads of irony here for literally everyone whos read your last 2 or 3 posts towards me actually.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> u wonder why I get irritated.


I dont wonder actually 

I dont care

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vice (Nov 30, 2018)

God, this dude is _such _a worthless crybaby.


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## Trojan (Nov 30, 2018)

just out of curiosity...

If you don't want to hear/read people's arguments, then why did you make this thread, to begin with? 
Aside from @King Itachi everyone and their mothers told you that you are wrong. Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your opinion? 


If not, then keep your opinion as you want, but no need to open this debate all the time. You won't convince them, and they will not
convince you...


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## Pocalypse (Nov 30, 2018)




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## Braiyan (Nov 30, 2018)

Looks like Troyse needs a Snickers.


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## Bonly (Nov 30, 2018)

Jesus Christ the downplay for Kisame is high as hell, most of Troy’s points have barely been properly countered and I’m not a Kisame fan

Reactions: Like 2


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 30, 2018)

Hussain said:


> If you don't want to hear/read people's arguments, then why did you make this thread, to begin with?
> Aside from @King Itachi everyone and their mothers told you that you are wrong. Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your opinion?



Something like eight or so people voted for Kisame as High Kage. Troy and I are the only ones that are vocal about it, but other posters who view Kisame in the same light do exist.


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## Mawt (Nov 30, 2018)

Azula said:


> "Can't get through them" Yes he can't, refering to stealing chakra from them.


I thought we were talking about physical strength. My bad.

Although Sasuke's blade managed to get past the samurais' armor. What are your thoughts on that? Considering Samehada can absorb Chakra from people if it manages to impale them.



Azula said:


> Gai was also stopping Samehada with his weapon.
> 
> He lost because Kisame's physical strength was greater.


True.

And 30% Kisame is implied to have less physical strength than real Kisame.



Azula said:


> Toads don't have to worry about losing to physical strength, they are literally not human but giant toads.


Never really said physical strength would be a factor against a Boss Summon. I agree Kisame doesn't have the showings against Toads. My argument was that Kisame failing to knock back a nameless toad just because of armor while he could knock back Punta doesn't make sense.



Azula said:


> Gamabunta easily dodging and countering Shukaku's attacks.


I was talking about Kage Level Shinobi who have the element of being small and mobile, not a Tailed Beast.



Azula said:


> Manda countering Jiraiya's attacks


Manda only countered a single Collaborative Jutsu from Jiraiya and Gamabunta, and Manda did not *dodge *that attack. He was hit by it.

My argument was that Kisame can maneuver around Manda.

Manda also being more mobile than Gamabunta.



Azula said:


> Jiraiya would be also be guiding the summon so it's two Kages fighting it out.


You said a Boss Summon alone would be a difficult match for Kisame. Thought we were debating that.



Azula said:


> Samehada is extremely tiny relative to them to be of any threat to them.


Exactly. Samehada and Kisame are flies compared to a Boss Summon, making it harder for the Boss Summons to hit them. Giving them an advantage to get a hit.



Azula said:


> They would cover far greater distance in a single leap than Samehada can extend. How is Samehada even getting close to them? What will Samehada do if it gets hit by them weapons? Remember the weapons' feats- punching a hole in Manda's head, cutting off Shukaku's arm, impaling Cerebus, splitting it in two. One hits from them will destroy Samehada or at the very least do major damage to it.


Kisame is dodging the attacks, not Samehada. And Kisame can summon sharks as distractions.



Azula said:


> And Summons are too big to be drained quickly, remember physical distance matters for chakra absorption and their greater strength means they can always grab Samehada and throw it away like you deal with an annoying mosquito.


Samehada could drain a Kage level Bee near instantly, and could drain V1 Cloaks in no time. Boss Summons won't be anyd ifferent. Chakra is directly correlated to stamina. If they get their Chakra sucked out, they can't fight.



Azula said:


> Every Boss summon can jump so high they can tower over Juubi's head. That means that they easily dodge it.


They have no idea how the ability works, and Kisame is the one maneuvering to get a good shot in.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 30, 2018)

Hussain said:


> just out of curiosity...
> 
> If you don't want to hear/read people's arguments, then why did you make this thread, to begin with?
> Aside from @King Itachi everyone and their mothers told you that you are wrong. Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your opinion?
> ...



I have heard people's arguments.

MY arguments have not been addressed.

Look back to the first posts between myself and Turrin

I went out of my way and addressed nearly EVERY sentence

He addressed less than 1/3rd of my posts.

Get mad kid.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Get mad kid.



Relentless!


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## Muah (Nov 30, 2018)

can Kisame fight on the same level as jiriya? we get the powerscaling but doesnt Jiriya just have better high level jutsu.  if his strongest single summon gamabunta can contest with a biju and he himself can fight equally with pein with no knowledge in enemy territory after taking out a squad of jounin and basically defeating a kage level ninja stronger than kisame himself(konan).

Reactions: Like 3


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 30, 2018)

Why are people acting as if Gamabunta briefly putting up a fight against Shukaku means anything and suggests that Kisame can't? Not only is Shukaku a shit Bijuu compared to the likes of Gyuuki, but Gamabunta was holding his own and not winning. We already know that the likes of both Raikage can physically contend with Gyuuki, and there's at least the canon premise that Killer B is superior to Ei in the physical department. What we also know is that Kisame is physically superior to Killer B up to V1 and can match V2 when he's merged with Samehada. That basically proves V2 is truly the power of Bijuu contained in humanoid form when Taijutsu specialists in each Raikage as stated before have fought Gyuuki with their bodies. Someone that is arguably stronger like Kisame due to relative strength performances we've seen between all of these characters should have no problem handling Gamabunta in the same fashion that we saw against Ponta.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2018)

This is crazy!



King Itachi said:


> Why are people acting as if Gamabunta briefly putting up a fight against Shukaku means anything and suggests that Kisame can't? Not only is Shukaku a shit Bijuu compared to the likes of Gyuuki, but Gamabunta was holding his own and not winning. We already know that the likes of both Raikage can physically contend with Gyuuki, and there's at least the canon premise that Killer B is superior to Ei in the physical department. What we also know is that Kisame is physically superior to Killer B up to V1 and can match V2 when he's merged with Samehada. That basically proves V2 is truly the power of Bijuu contained in humanoid form when Taijutsu specialists in each Raikage as stated before have fought Gyuuki with their bodies. Someone that is arguably stronger like Kisame due to relative strength performances we've seen between all of these characters should have no problem handling Gamabunta in the same fashion that we saw against Ponta.



I'm just listing the short form here.

Shukaku = Shit bijuu - This means anything to do with Shukaku is an anti-feat

Gamabunta = Held his own vs Shukaku but was not winning - That's like a double anti-feat. Ignore the fact that he's the most battle hardened toad as far as the manga has shown, or that he's been in more on panel battles than any other summon we know of.....he could not beat Shukaku, only stalemate him for a bit......must be a fucking bum.

Ponta with no feats of his own other than getting punted by Kisame means Ponta = Gamabunta???

What can you say man?

What can you say....?

The internet is an amazing place!


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## Serene Grace (Nov 30, 2018)

Ni


King Itachi said:


> Why are people acting as if Gamabunta briefly putting up a fight against Shukaku means anything and suggests that Kisame can't? Not only is Shukaku a shit Bijuu compared to the likes of Gyuuki, but Gamabunta was holding his own and not winning. We already know that the likes of both Raikage can physically contend with Gyuuki, and there's at least the canon premise that Killer B is superior to Ei in the physical department. *What we also know is that Kisame is physically superior to Killer B up to V1 and can match V2 when he's merged with Samehada. That basically proves V2 is truly the power of Bijuu contained in humanoid form when Taijutsu specialists in each Raikage as stated before have fought Gyuuki with their bodies. *Someone that is arguably stronger like Kisame due to relative strength performances we've seen between all of these characters should have no problem handling Gamabunta in the same fashion that we saw against Ponta.


Nice slippery slope fallacy


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 30, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> This is crazy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shukaku is logically the weakest Bijuu regardless of what he says himself in a party of pity. When you look at all performances of said Bijuu, the top contenders are Gyuuki and Kyuubi by a larger margin. How does Gamabunta relate? It relates by barely holding its own against the weakest Bijuu. Either Raikage can at least physically contend with Gyuuki, while Kisame's strength feats are canonically above Ei's when you scale both performances of their strength against Killer B's.

I don't think Ponta is as strong as Gamabunta, but I'm also not under the impression that Gamabunta is far superior to Ponta in physical ability. However, Kisame was far superior to Ponta and punted his ass with no-diff. It leads me to believe that Gamabunta would fare better in a sense, though I can't imagine anything resembling even low-diff when you consider Kisame's performances.

In my opinion, the issue is that physical monsters like Kisame are closer to Gyuuki in physical strength than people might think, but Kisame does need to merge with Samehada so that he can get close to that level.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Shukaku is logically the weakest Bijuu regardless of what he says himself in a party of pity. When you look at all performances of said Bijuu, the top contenders are Gyuuki and Kyuubi by a larger margin. How does Gamabunta relate? It relates by barely holding its own against the weakest Bijuu. Either Raikage can at least physically contend with Gyuuki, while Kisame's strength feats are canonically above Ei's when you scale both performances of their strength against Killer B's.



Sure, Shukaku is the weakest bijuu.

Which bijuu's did Ponta hold his own against?

See where this is going?



> I don't think Ponta is as strong as Gamabunta, but I'm also not under the impression that Gamabunta is far superior to Ponta in physical ability.



Why not? You literally have no feats for Ponta and have feats over the course of the manga for Bunta.

Equating similar power levels between Ponta and Bunta is a decision you made arbitrarily.



> However, Kisame was far superior to Ponta and punted his ass with no-diff. It leads me to believe that Gamabunta would fare better in a sense, though I can't imagine anything resembling even low-diff when you consider Kisame's performances.



This is a false equivalency. Kisame Punted Ponta so he punts Gamabunta. There is literally no reason to think that. Other than Ponta and Bunta are both anthropomorphized animals they are completely  different. They aren't the same type of animal. They aren't the same size. Bunta has shown ninja skills and has weapons and displayed more smarts in battle.

WHAT THE FUCK?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 30, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sure, Shukaku is the weakest bijuu.
> 
> Which bijuu's did Ponta hold his own against?
> 
> ...



It's not only a case of Ponta getting wrecked. Kisame's strength can actually be quantified and put in the same realm as both Killer B and either Raikage. Even if they're inferior to Gyuuki, that's a level of physical strength that can step with Gyuuki. We're talking about something that leveled a forest with a brief show of its physical might, so the definition of Bijuu is quite broad. The way he treated Ponta (a creature that is calculated to be around a third the size of Gamabunta) is just icing on the cake. Size might not always be a good indicator of strength (as shown when human-sized targets show massive amounts of physical strength), but these characters in discussion also have a lot more going for them and aren't giant pets that can get thrown aside on a whim. They're generally chakra beasts or even Bijuu when we get into larger creatures, though these characters performing such physical feats typically have Bijuu-level chakra.

Like I said before, Ponta is not the only factor, but it's not really telling when Gamabunta's best feats are not doing so stellar against the weakest Bijuu.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> It's not only a case of Ponta getting wrecked. Kisame's strength can actually be quantified and put in the same realm as both Killer B and either Raikage. Even if they're inferior to Gyuuki, that's a level of physical strength that can step with Gyuuki. We're talking about something that leveled a forest with a brief show of its physical might, so the definition of Bijuu is quite broad. The way he treated Ponta (a creature that is calculated to be around a third the size of Gamabunta) is just icing on the cake. Size might not always be a good indicator of strength (as shown when human-sized targets show massive amounts of physical strength), but these characters in discussion also have a lot more going for them and aren't giant pets that can get thrown aside on a whim. They're generally chakra beasts or even Bijuu when we get into larger creatures, though these characters performing such physical feats typically have Bijuu-level chakra.
> 
> Like I said before, Ponta is not the only factor, but it's not really telling when Gamabunta's best feats are not doing so stellar against the weakest Bijuu.



Absolutely nothing you have said is relevant to the point.

There is no way to determine how Ponta compares to Gamabunta. If anything it's likely Gamabunta >>> Ponta. At worst you cannot compare Ponta to Bunta in terms of how they stack against Kisame. Bunta has weapons, can perform jutsu, is combat hardened and has battled some significant opponents. Ponta got off paneled. 

Saying Ponta is = or similar to Bunta is completely arbitrary.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Nov 30, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sure, Shukaku is the weakest bijuu.
> 
> Which bijuu's did Ponta hold his own against?
> 
> ...



No reason to think that.

Literally at most 3x the weight of Ponta.

The weight which Kisame threw down like trash.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 30, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Absolutely nothing you have said is relevant to the point.
> 
> There is no way to determine how Ponta compares to Gamabunta. If anything it's likely Gamabunta >>> Ponta. At worst you cannot compare Ponta to Bunta in terms of how they stack against Kisame. Bunta has weapons, can perform jutsu, is combat hardened and has battled some significant opponents. Ponta got off paneled.
> 
> Saying Ponta is = or similar to Bunta is completely arbitrary.



The point is that Kisame is close to Gyuuki in physical strength: a being that is canonically superior to Shukaku by a large amount. Gamabunta was barely holding its own against Shukaku, so the gap is quite large when you throw Kisame into the equation.

His performance against Ponta is just icing on the cake, and it would make little difference to increase that size by threefold when the difference was vast as it stands. I don't think Ponta is even as strong as Gamabunta, but size is honestly a good comparison for beings that aren't substantial like Gamabunta or Ponta. Not sure why it's so difficult to understand.

Ponta's direct power compared to Gamabunta's doesn't need an argument when we ultimately know that Gamabunta would put up no fight against Kisame due to Shukaku performances. Kisame is physically superior to Shukaku.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 1, 2018)

You try to use Ponta's short time as a negative, too. You're forgetting how Kisame finessed Killer B, so it's no surprise that Ponta would get stomped by a guy who can slay Bijuu.


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> No reason to think that.
> 
> Literally at most 3x the weight of Ponta.
> 
> The weight which Kisame threw down like trash.



3>1

Just because you can toss around a 1 doesn't mean you can toss around a 3. These false equivalency arguments are rampant.



King Itachi said:


> The point is that Kisame is close to Gyuuki in physical strength: a being that is canonically superior to Shukaku by a large amount.



Ok, enough of this nonsense. I'm calling you guys out every fucking time you say something that is just straight up bullshit.

Gyuuki is a more powerful Bijuu than Shukaku, but you have no idea how their physical strength compares. 1 to 1, 1.5 to 1, 10000000 to 1....literally no clue, you just make this up as you go.

Also Kisame held his own physically, but we don't know how close he actually is in strength. Plus I thought holding your own didn't mean shit? I guess it does now. What a shocker!



> Gamabunta was barely holding its own against Shukaku,



Again, which bijuu did Ponta hold his own against?



> so the gap is quite large when you throw Kisame into the equation.



What gap? We don't even know how Shukaku compares to Gyuuki. All we know is Gyuuki is more powerful, but we do not know the margin.

The size of any gap you've decided on is just something you made up.



> His performance against Ponta is just icing on the cake,



It's literally meaningless with no qualifiers available to compare.

Complete no meaning other than Kisame can beat Ponta with little effort.



> Ponta's direct power compared to Gamabunta's doesn't need an argument when we ultimately know that Gamabunta would put up no fight against Kisame due to Shukaku performances. Kisame is physically superior to Shukaku.



No we don't know that. You can't say Kisame would beat Bunta as easily as he beat Ponta. Bunta has jutsus, weapons, experience. He wouldn't defeat Kisame, but getting one paneled is highly unlikely It would require some effort to dispose of Bunta.



King Itachi said:


> You try to use Ponta's short time as a negative, too. You're forgetting how Kisame finessed Killer B, so it's no surprise that Ponta would get stomped by a guy who can slay Bijuu.



Maybe you don't understand here...no scratch that, you definitely don't understand.

I am not arguing for or against Ponta, I am arguing against your lack of logic applied when comparing Ponta to Bunta. The false equivalence fallacy.


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## Buuhan (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Absolutely nothing you have said is relevant to the point.
> 
> There is no way to determine how Ponta compares to Gamabunta. If anything it's likely Gamabunta >>> Ponta. At worst you cannot compare Ponta to Bunta in terms of how they stack against Kisame. Bunta has weapons, can perform jutsu, is combat hardened and has battled some significant opponents. Ponta got off paneled.
> 
> Saying Ponta is = or similar to Bunta is completely arbitrary.


That doesn't even mention Bunta using ninjutsu could mean a lot of things. There are tons of adults the same size as Kakashi, but his ability to mold and use chakra gives him physicals far above a regular human. Same should apply to Bunta over Ponta since we've seen him use ninjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Something like eight or so people voted for Kisame as High Kage. Troy and I are the only ones that are vocal about it, but other posters who view Kisame in the same light do exist.


Id eat my hat if every one of said other 8 people werent trolling you and troy specifically tho


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, enough of this nonsense. I'm calling you guys out every fucking time you say something that is just straight up bullshit.
> 
> Gyuuki is a more powerful Bijuu than Shukaku, but you have no idea how their physical strength compares. 1 to 1, 1.5 to 1, 10000000 to 1....literally no clue, you just make this up as you go.
> 
> ...



Are you joking?
Gyuuki held down Three Tails and ragdolled Five Tails at the same time. Eight Tails Twist leveled a forest with physical might.
He was able to even temporarily restrain Kyuubi in Naruto's mind (an area where Gyuuki's power is likely weaker due to mind transfer), and multiple Bijuu were getting destroyed by BM Naruto in the physical department. None of the lesser Bijuu have physical ability that can match Gyuuki's and especially not Kyuubi's. Let's also remember once again that Shukaku is the weakest Bijuu. The most that Gamabunta can do is sit his fat ass on Kyuubi's head for a few seconds when Gyuuki and Kyuubi were actually slugging.

It doesn't fare well. Gyuuki is several times stronger.



> Again, which bijuu did Ponta hold his own against?



Kisame fought a guy that is physically up there with Gyuuki: the second in strength among Bijuu. Ponta got stomped by a guy that can be physically compared to Bijuu, though it's one of the strongest among them.



> It's literally meaningless with no qualifiers available to compare.
> 
> Complete no meaning other than Kisame can beat Ponta with little effort.



I don't think your typical summon is anything special. They've given me no reason to think they are, which is why I judge them based on size. Even then, I already stated multiple times that Gamabunta is stronger than Ponta.



> No we don't know that. You can't say Kisame would beat Bunta as easily as he beat Ponta. Bunta has jutsus, weapons, experience. He wouldn't defeat Kisame, but getting one paneled is highly unlikely It would require some effort to dispose of Bunta.



Ponta has multiple sharp weapons extending from his paws, so it's not like he is without them.
Do Jutsu suggest that he is going to run and play a ranged game? Bad tactic and just proves inferiority. In any case, Kisame reaches him with Suikoudan. Most of Gamabunta's feats include physical encounters (as do all of the larger toads). If experience plays any role in the fight, it would be due to Gamebunta running away and forcing Kisame to reach him. In any physical duel, he gets taken down without much effort, and the idea is that Kisame can do it under the circumstances of a physical fight. It's obviously going to require more for a chase, though the argument is that Kisame can defeat him in a physical fight without much effort. That's not including offensive types of Ninjutsu or absorption for obvious reasons.



> Maybe you don't understand here...no scratch that, you definitely don't understand.
> 
> I am not arguing for or against Ponta, I am arguing against your lack of logic applied when comparing Ponta to Bunta. The false equivalence fallacy.



You cherry pick one point in your first quote to me and expect me to answer it without surrounding information of how I come to the conclusion?


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Id eat my hat if every one of said other 8 people werent trolling you and troy specifically tho



Would you blame these people for remaining silent among the masses? Look at the shit that Troy and I have to deal with defending Kisame.


----------



## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> 3>1
> 
> Just because you can toss around a 1 doesn't mean you can toss around a 3. These false equivalency arguments are rampant.



When the gap is so big it's a fucking one shot while smiling....

Yeah.

It's not like Kisame REMOTELY struggled

He did it with a smile on his face and called Ponta "unworthy of being shredded"

The gap between Kisame's strength relative to Ponta's size tells us Kisame can easily damage, if not incap Bunta

If Kisame was struggling to a degree you'd have a point

But he wasn't

So you don't.

He did with a smile on his face and after called Ponta unworthy.

You're acting like the 3x size increase would make Kisame struggle, but the gap was, on panel, so enormous that an addition 3x is irrelevant.

Do you understand Jiraiya wanker?


----------



## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

Bunta falls out of the sky and lands his big fat ass on Kurama and people act like it's a feat of strength for Bunta

He did nothing besides use weight and momentum.

Kurama was not braced and ready for it.

But Jiraiya wankers will say literally anything to further their bullshit agenda of putting this washed up old man several tiers above where he belongs.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Would you blame these people for remaining silent among the masses?


You completely and entirely missed what i was saying

And yes actually

I cant see anyone actually thinking Kisame is High Kage and then NOT stating how or why they think that way as having a serious or legitimate opinion

Ive argued against literally this entire board on topics before...Numbers shouldnt intimidate peoel from sharing opinions.


King Itachi said:


> Look at the shit that Troy and I have to deal with defending Kisame.


The shit you and troy have to deal with???

Jesus...

Kiddo, this is a thread based entirely on shit that Troy doesnt wanna accept prefaced under the guise of *"Prove me wrong....No but not that way tho"*


And even when people ADHERE TO THOSE RULES, Troy STILL gets analmad over what they are saying.

Take my posts for example...That he still hasnt addressed btw 

Troy CANNOT be fucking told differently on this topic...he WILL NOT budge on his opinions in the slightest even when counter arguments fall under HIS TERMS that people DONT need to actually adhere to to make a compelling argument.

That and he does literally nothing but play the victim

Im not saying those that say shit like "Toad mouth oneshots" are to be taken seriously or are 100% right, and im not saying Troy is 100% wrong, but there are legitimate arguments here that are being ignored and they arent just Troy's 

That, and "toad mouth gg" is far from the only flawed af argument in here. You and Troy are guilty of SEVERAL...False equivalences galore up in here.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> several tiers above where he belongs.


----------



## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Ive argued against literally this entire board on topics before...Numbers shouldnt intimidate peoel from sharing opinions.



The amount of backlash King, and especially I receive for holding these opinions is not something your average poster would WANT to deal with.

They've seen this way the board can treat me, just look at this goddamn fucking thread.

Do you think everyone wants to deal with that much scrutiny?

No dude.

No.

There are in fact quite a few who put Kisame pretty high up, whether you like it or not.



WorldsStrongest said:


> The shit you and troy have to deal with???
> 
> Jesus...



Like we don't get scrutinized at every corner by every Jiraiya wanker and Sasuke wanker across the NBD?

And they come in fucking droves to rating spam when they can't disprove shit.

And insult you

And tell you your on panel stated FACTS are opinions or wrongful interpretation of feats and statements.

It's fucking annoying as fuck. And I don't blame anyone else for not wanting to deal with what I do.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Kiddo, this is a thread based entirely on shit that Troy doesnt wanna accept prefaced under the guise of *"Prove me wrong....No but not that way tho"*



No dude.

No goddamn fucking jesus christ no.

A P1 scan of a single outdated statement is what I didn't want.

I wanted my arguments properly addressed.

And I didn't get that.

I didn't even get 2 thirds of it addressed.

And you tell me that I'M the problem?

You're so lost i'm actually baffled.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Take my posts for example...That he still hasnt addressed btw



What post kid

What post kid

What post kid



WorldsStrongest said:


> Troy CANNOT be fucking told differently on this topic...he WILL NOT budge on his opinions in the slightest even when counter arguments fall under HIS TERMS that people DONT need to actually adhere to to make a compelling argument.



Maybe if a compelling argument existed for Jiraiya beating Kisame i'd budge

But there isn't one

So I won't

You saying this is like saying "OMG THIS GUY WON'T BUDGE BECAUSE HE THINKS JJ OBITO BEATS P1 SAKURA, WHAT AN IDIOT DURR DURR DURR DURR DURR DURR"

NO INFORMATION THAT WASN'T CONTRADICTED EXISTS FOR JIRAIYA BEATING KISAME, NONE. JUST LIKE JJ OBITO>SAKURA

Maybe address my goddamn fucking points, PROVE ME WRONG, I'M LITERALLY ASKING FOR IT

HELL GO BACK TO WHERE ME AND TURRIN WERE ARGUING AND U QUOTE MY POINTS THE HE MISSED AND I WILL ADDRESS THE COUNTER.

I WILL NOT SHY AWAY FROM ANY POINT YOU MAKE IF U DO THIS.

But you won't

Because you know there's no way to address it without being FORCED to admit Jiraiya loses, indisputably

That's why Turrin won't touch a TON of points

And that's why you won't either.

So get the fuck outta my face kid.



WorldsStrongest said:


> but there are legitimate arguments here that are being ignored and they arent just Troy's



Mine are the vast majority whether u like it or not


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Are you joking?
> Gyuuki held down Three Tails and ragdolled Five Tails at the same time. Eight Tails Twist leveled a forest with physical might.
> He was able to even temporarily restrain Kyuubi in Naruto's mind (an area where Gyuuki's power is likely weaker due to mind transfer), and multiple Bijuu were getting destroyed by BM Naruto in the physical department. None of the lesser Bijuu have physical ability that can match Gyuuki's and especially not Kyuubi's. Let's also remember once again that Shukaku is the weakest Bijuu. The most that Gamabunta can do is sit his fat ass on Kyuubi's head for a few seconds when Gyuuki and Kyuubi were actually slugging.



You still don't know what's going on.

I'm not arguing that Gyuuki is weak I am saying you don't know how he compares to Shukaku physically.

And you don't, which is why you aren't offering any actually evidence on it.

Here's what Bee had to say - D_on't measure our strength or weakness by the number of our tails, hey_


I'm sure it's completely meaningless to you tho.



> It doesn't fare well. Gyuuki is several times stronger.



Prove it. Otherwise nothing but fanfiction.



> Kisame fought a guy that is physically up there with Gyuuki: the second in strength among Bijuu.



Yes 2nd most powerful. Power and strength are not mutually inclusive.



> Ponta got stomped by a guy that can be physically compared to Bijuu, though it's one of the strongest among them.



Gamabunta actually fought a Bijuu.

Crazy how actually fighting a bijuu means less than getting your ass kicked by Kisame.

Like fucking straight insane.



> I don't think your typical summon is anything special.



I really don't care what you think. Offer some actual evidence. I already know that you think a summon that fought a bijuu is somehow "similar" in power to one that got off paneled. Repeating yourself does not make it less nonsensical.



> Ponta has multiple sharp weapons extending from his paws, so it's not like he is without them.



He's got claws. HOLY SHIT DEBATES OVER.

Is this some sort of next level trolling? Bunta has a giant sword.

This is really unbelievable. I'm fucking amazed.



> Do Jutsu suggest that he is going to run and play a ranged game?



It suggests Bunta can think tactically.



> Bad tactic and just proves inferiority. In any case, Kisame reaches him with Suikoudan. Most of Gamabunta's feats include physical encounters (as do all of the larger toads). If experience plays any role in the fight, it would be due to Gamebunta running away and forcing Kisame to reach him. In any physical duel, he gets taken down without much effort, and the idea is that Kisame can do it under the circumstances of a physical fight. It's obviously going to require more for a chase, though the argument is that Kisame can defeat him in a physical fight without much effort. That's not including offensive types of Ninjutsu or absorption for obvious reasons.



Ok....you really are lost in space here.

Yes Kisame will defeat Bunta. The point is it will takle effort and Bunta as one of Jiraiyas summons will prove very useful in a fight with Kisame



> You cherry pick one point in your first quote to me and expect me to answer it without surrounding information of how I come to the conclusion?



It doesn't matter how you came to that conclusion. It's a false equivalency.

That conclusion may have dawned on you hanging upside down in your back yard from a tree reading Kisame's greatest hits while watching shark week.

Explaining how you came to it doesn't stop it from being wrong.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Prove it. Otherwise nothing but fanfiction



/link on panel feats of Bee ragdolling 2 (or 3?) Bijuu's.

"DATS UR OPINION THO"

or 

"DATS JUZT UR INTURPRITATION OF UH FEET THO"

one or the other

Which is it?


----------



## Serene Grace (Dec 1, 2018)

Worlds vs Troy again

Get yer tickets everyone

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> When the gap is so big it's a fucking one shot while smiling....
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> ...



HOLY FUCKING SHIT

This is truly next level wankery.  I mean meme fucking city. You guys should be hosting shark week. Truly flabbergasting.

What don't you get about a false equivalency?

How? HOW? HOOOOOWWW? Do you think that how Kisame deals with Ponta has any significance to how he would deal with Bunta???

Other than the fact they are both fucking animals you literally have nothing to hang your shark fin on.

Like this is incredible shit man, totally amazing.

No I'm serious, if this is some next level troll, my hat is off to you. You're fucking good homie.

Do they give academy awards for internet shit?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

Shukaku wasn't even a Bijuu back then, so idk why the fuck u guys are still talking about it.

He was the "Sand Demon"

And the nine tails was stated to have only spawned when humanity was at its worst, the embodiment of hatred.

They weren't the Bijuu we know from the war arc, they were another entity entirely

"Shukaku the Sand Spirit" not "The one tails" or "Shukaku the Bijuu"

There was only one tailed beast at the time, and it was Kurama

The concept of Bijuu's was only thing in P2.

If Bunta squared off against WA Shukaku he's getting fucking ragdoll bitch slapped 0 diff.

Or pasted with a Bijuudama.

I stg it's like people haven't read the manga, or even watched the anime


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> /link on panel feats of Bee ragdolling 2 (or 3?) Bijuu's.
> 
> "DATS UR OPINION THO"
> 
> ...



Neither. 

It's prove how that compares to Shukaku and what ratio their strength is related. 

I don't know if I can be more clear than that. If I tossed some shark jizz on it would it make more sense?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> How? HOW? HOOOOOWWW? Do you think that how Kisame deals with Punta has any significance to how he would deal with Bunta???




It's all about weight and size.

And i'm sorry but Bunta thrown into some dirt had every bone in his body broken

There's nothing indicating he's exceptionally more durable than Ponta, his durability feats are piss poor.

Look at the other toads.

Getting bitchified 1v2 by Cerberus.

Or Gamaken by a bird.

Literal fodder autist bird.

The fact that Kisame can RAGDOLL Ponta's weight and size WITH NO DIFFICULTY WHATSOEVER, LITERALLY CASUALLY indicates he can do the same to Bunta, even if u believe he has to put in some effort this time I really don't give a shit as it doesn't change the end result.

I don't believe Kisame is one hit incapping Bunta unless he strikes him in the head.

But he's breaking bones on contact.

Or slitting his big fat gut open with Samehada.

He has the strength feats supporting the fact that he can do this, not to mention his strength is compared directly to Bijuu's themselves on panel 

Get mad kid


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Neither.
> 
> It's prove how that compares to Shukaku and what ratio their strength is related.
> 
> I don't know if I can be more clear than that. If I tossed some shark jizz on it would it make more sense?



Kurama>Gyuki>1-7 tails, this is universally agreed upon with a few outliers actually taking the time to evaluate the other Bijuu's feats (for example i'd put Son Goku above the others bar Gyuki and Kurama)

But the gap isn't enormous, in fact it's very small (1-7 tails)


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> The amount of backlash King, and especially I receive for holding these opinions is not something your average poster would WANT to deal with.


The assumption being the average poster shares your opinions

And they dont


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> They've seen this way the board can treat me, just look at this goddamn fucking thread.


Completely and totally unprovoked im sure 




MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> There are in fact quite a few who put Kisame pretty high up, whether you like it or not.


No there arent 

Link me to a thread where anybody, who posts on any regular basis and isnt a lurker nobody, aside from you and King think he can even beat Itachi

Let alone Rinnegan Obito Nagato or fucking EMS madara 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Like we don't get scrutinized at every corner by every Jiraiya wanker and Sasuke wanker


See the issue here?

You assuem literally fucking everybody else holds bias and you dont...When its literally ONLY YOU that puts Kisame where you do for X reasons.

But yeah man...Im sure YOURE THE ONE whos in teh right...99% of teh rest of thsi board are teh ones fumbling around in teh dark 

There is ZERO bias involved in fucking saying Izanagi EMS Madara > Kisam e> Restricted Izanagi EMS Madara 

Also i dont wank Sasuke 

You link me to that thread where I said Hebi Sasuke can beat Pain or someone stronger than Pain, and ill happily concede to being a Sasuke wanker

Find me ONE INSTANCE where I EVER matched ANY VERSION OF SASUKE up against someone who wasnt in THE SAME TIER as him

Go on

Money where you  mouth is time you hypocrite


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> And tell you your on panel stated FACTS are opinions or wrongful interpretation of feats and statements


And thats certainly not what you do 

Like for example when you tried to fucking tell me the elemental wheel magically doesnt hold sway over Kisames suitons because reasons 

Never mind teh fact teh elemental wheel is an "on panel stated FACT" that you literally just threw away because it didnt benefit your boy

But go ahead

Keep calling THE REST OF US biased.

See how many more stones your glass house can take.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> No dude.
> 
> No goddamn fucking jesus christ no.


Yes troy

Yes

Thats exactly what youve been doing

May not be what you ASKED for, but its what youve done


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> A P1 scan of a single outdated statement is what I didn't want.


I specifically said there are several people (including myself) who didnt even fucking bring that up and you havent addressed half of what thevy said either.

I dont give a darn if you Turrin and Hussain are over there spewing absolute bullshit like "Jonin level kisame"...They WERENT MY POINT. The peopel who brought  LEGITIMATE arguments were.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> I wanted my arguments properly addressed.
> 
> And I didn't get that.


Not by Turrin

But other people have

You and shin seem to be havinga  decent back and forth for instance

Me and you were until you just stopped responding to me 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> What post kid
> 
> What post kid
> 
> What post kid


Is this meant to be anything aside from pathetic?

This post btw

Kid


WorldsStrongest said:


> Its not being ignored...Samheada touched the chakra and absorbed everything it came into contact with
> 
> Samehadas surface area is straight up not large enough to tag the entirety of a Boss Summon+ sized swamp tho
> 
> ...


It also happens to be a post where you get on with some of the most hypocritical bullshit ive ever seen from you 



MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Maybe if a compelling argument existed for Jiraiya beating Kisame i'd budge
> 
> But there isn't one
> 
> So I won't


Thered be plenty of compelling arguments if you werent so blind that you put Kisame as a fucking Founders tier fighter 

Kisames best feat BY FAR is beating a V2 Jin...Who is NOTHING TO A FOUNDER TIER FIGHTER.

But sure...No issues there.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> You saying this is like saying "OMG THIS GUY WON'T BUDGE BECAUSE HE THINKS JJ OBITO BEATS P1 SAKURA, WHAT AN IDIOT DURR DURR DURR DURR DURR DURR"


Never called you an idiot

Never even implied you were one

And no thats not what im saying youre acting like.

What I AM SAYING is that youve asked peopel to provide evidence for an opinion you dont agree with, and you are literally dismissing like 95% of said evidence out of hand for NO REASON.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> NO INFORMATION THAT WASN'T CONTRADICTED EXISTS FOR JIRAIYA BEATING KISAME, NONE. JUST LIKE JJ OBITO>SAKURA
> 
> Maybe address my goddamn fucking points, PROVE ME WRONG, I'M LITERALLY ASKING FOR IT


People have 

Myself included


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> HELL GO BACK TO WHERE ME AND TURRIN


I dont give a darn what Turrins bullshit gets on with

im talking about other people

just because you have one person in here acting completely and totally foolish doesnt mean everyone who quoites you is

So when I say "hey troy address this" stop fucking hiding behind teh smokescreen of "But Turrin hasnt texted me back after I beat his ass tho!"

Completely irrelevant


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> But you won't
> 
> Because you know there's no way to address it without being FORCED to admit Jiraiya loses, indisputably


Sure kiddo


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> And that's why you won't either.
> 
> So get the fuck outta my face kid.


Ironic as fuck coming from the one acting so damn childish and hasnt addressed MY points yet 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Mine are the vast majority whether u like it or not


HA


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> It's all about weight and size.



Is this for real? Are you actually attempting to argue Bunta's combat effectiveness is going to be determined by his weight and size?

Really?

No, come on.

Look man, I like sharks too. I seen shark week. I tried shark fin soup. I mean I'm not hard as fucking diamonds for sharks, but I don't mind em.

See what I'm getting at....this size and weight argument is weak as fuck. Par for the course, I admire your consistency. However anybody with half a shark brain can tell that nobody cares how far Kisame can toss Bunta, as this isn't the summon tossing event at sharkapolooza, this is a combat situation.

But hey, I still love your tomfoolery and you neg reps homie.

Keep up the good wankery!


----------



## Azula (Dec 1, 2018)

The concept of Bijuu was definitely there in Part 1. Shukaku was made a one tail Tanuki and Kurama was made a nine tail fox with room left to fill in the other Bijuus in between them by the number of tails.

In Part 1 Shukaku was in it's full Bijuu form. All the databook descriptions about Shukaku mention how it has extreme destructive power and pours massive chakra into it's attacks. And in databook 4 it is says that Shukaku's body is made of sand as if it wasn't clear enough in Part 1.


*Spoiler*: _Databook 2_ 



NINJUTSU; Fuuton: Renkuudan (Wind Release: Kneaded Vacuum Bullet)
User: Shukaku
Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none

Main text

*A jutsu peculiar to Shukaku of the Sand in his full-fledged form*. He pounds onto his belly to apply external pressure, the power of which he uses to shoot a high-compression air ball from his mouth! The expelled air cannonball is mighty enough to hollow out the ground. To top it all, *because of the large quantity of chakra kneaded into it, it explodes the moment it reaches its target, dealing an enormous amount of damage!!*

Captions

-The vacuum cannonball fired by pounding onto the laughing Tanuki's belly tambourine!!

-The impact tears the forest apart!!

Picture comments

-The Tanuki's large mouth is turned into a cannon. Permeated with chakra, a humongous ball of air is propelled with a thunderous sound!!

-Pounded onto by a stout arm, the belly tambourine will trigger the jutsu's activation.

-Tearing apart the forest and hollowing out the ground, the cannonball draws a straight line aiming at the enemy!!





*Spoiler*: _Databook 4_ 



Shukaku (One-Tails)
*The pattern of a curse seal is carved into its sandy body and it feels proud of its automatic defense*. Amongst the tailed beasts, it has the most pride and its rivals are those who consider the strength of a tailed beast to be determined by the number of tails.

Desert Layered Imperial Funeral Seal
User: Gaara

Data
Rank: A
Range: Close to Medium
Type: Supplementary
Classification: Ninjutsu, Sealing Jutsu

An eternal farewell to the outside world - A sand prison of grand proportions.

Large amounts of sand make it impossible to move and this jutsu is completed by sealing enemies in this state. Because of the pyramid-like shape and size, escaping is extremely difficult. This jutsu is effective even against kage level opponents. It coils around enemies with no mercy. Additionally, *by incorporating Shukaku’s body of sand and curse mark seals*, the strength of this jutsu can be increased. A gravestone is perfected, made of super dense sand that even air cannot penetrate.

⇨Anyone imprisoned in these pyramids of sand will never worship the sunrise again. A sand prison made of the hardest sand.




All of Gamabunta's feats against Shukaku are legit and cannot be dismissed.

They are re-enforced in the flashback when Obito attacks when he holds down Kurama.

Also, Kurama >>> 1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8 tails


----------



## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Is this for real? Are you actually attempting to argue Bunta's combat effectiveness is going to be determined by his weight and size?
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...



Tossing a summon shown to be a viable method as proven by SM Naruto

It's not viable for Kisame because reasons


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> You still don't know what's going on.
> 
> I'm not arguing that Gyuuki is weak I am saying you don't know how he compares to Shukaku physically.
> 
> And you don't, which is why you aren't offering any actually evidence on it.



Do you have any evidence of Shukaku's physical ability? I gave you a straight feat of Gyuuki simultaneously contending with two Bijuu from a standing position. He stopped a rolling Three Tails with no-diff and ragdolled Five Tails. All of that was from a disadvantageous position.



> Here's what Bee had to say - D_on't measure our strength or weakness by the number of our tails, hey
> 
> I'm sure it's completely meaningless to you tho.
> _



...which is pretty much a ridiculous statement when you look at their performances in canon when compared to each other.



> Prove it. Otherwise nothing but fanfiction.



Proven with feats. Whether or not you want to accept them is up to you



> Yes 2nd most powerful. Power and strength are not mutually inclusive.



Yet Gyuuki and Kurama were physically far more capable than the other Bijuu they were fighting? What isn't adding up?



> Gamabunta actually fought a Bijuu.
> 
> Crazy how actually fighting a bijuu means less than getting your ass kicked by Kisame.
> 
> Like fucking straight insane.



...because Ponta got stomped by someone comparable to said Bijuu that is superior to Shukaku.
You seem to be the one who has a problem with accepting feats.



> I really don't care what you think. Offer some actual evidence. I already know that you think a summon that fought a bijuu is somehow "similar" in power to one that got off paneled. Repeating yourself does not make it less nonsensical.



How is it nonsensical? There's nothing particularly special about any large creature that isn't some giant mass of chakra.
They have a few tools here and there, but that's not what we're referring to when concerning strength. Perhaps overall strength... I'm merely talking about what it would take to defeat these creatures in a physical contest.

Size is the best way to measure their strength.



> He's got claws. HOLY SHIT DEBATES OVER.
> 
> Is this some sort of next level trolling? Bunta has a giant sword.
> 
> This is really unbelievable. I'm fucking amazed.



It's not a joke. If Ponta didn't have weapons of his own to hurt Kisame, he likely would have never approached him.
Why downplay...



> It suggests Bunta can think tactically.



It's good that we're getting closer to the same page. I don't deny that Gamabunta can give Kisame a chase. What I don't agree with is how long the fight will last when Kisame does reach him. What is your stance on that matter?



> Ok....you really are lost in space here.
> 
> Yes Kisame will defeat Bunta. The point is it will takle effort and Bunta as one of Jiraiyas summons will prove very useful in a fight with Kisame



So you agree that Kisame can easily defeat Gamabunta in a physical contest? The difficulty is what it will take for Kisame to reach Gamabunta, as he likely won't approach Kisame the same way that Ponta did. That's my view on the situation.



> It doesn't matter how you came to that conclusion. It's a false equivalency.
> 
> That conclusion may have dawned on you hanging upside down in your back yard from a tree reading Kisame's greatest hits while watching shark week.
> 
> Explaining how you came to it doesn't stop it from being wrong.



The entire point revolves around Kisame being comparable in physical strength with Gyuuki that has shown capabilities far above Shukaku's. If you disagree with that, be my guest. It would be rather strange for Shukaku to somehow be the lone exception when all other Bijuu were getting wrecked in a physical match.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Tossing a summon shown to be a viable method as proven by SM Naruto



Who said it wasn't a viable method?

I will buy you a shark skinned dictionary if it helps.



> It's not viable for Kisame because reasons



Bunta has displayed tactics in combat. Highly unlikely he's just gonna sit there and let himself get ganked by Kisame. Oh wait no he will because YOUR HARD AS DIAMONDS FOR KISAME!

HARD

AS

DIAMONDS

(is there something harder than diamonds?)


----------



## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The assumption being the average poster shares your opinions
> 
> And they dont



I clearly meant the average poster doesn't wanna deal with what I do.

Why is this something I have to repeat

I'm not saying the average poster agrees with me

I'm saying the average poster doesn't wanna deal with this shit.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No there arent
> 
> Link me to a thread where anybody, who posts on any regular basis and isnt a lurker nobody, aside from you and King think he can even beat Itachi
> 
> Let alone Rinnegan Obito Nagato or fucking EMS madara



Those 6 people like to stay anonymous, so idk 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Find me ONE INSTANCE where I EVER matched ANY VERSION OF SASUKE up against someone who wasnt in THE SAME TIER as



So if YOU put him in Kaguyas tier, then that's the way it is? You're the sole decider of where he should be placed, because that's what this post is saying. Anyone who agrees with you automatically isn't a wanker.

Kids these days jfc.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Like for example when you tried to fucking tell me the elemental wheel magically doesnt hold sway over Kisames suitons because reasons



Because functionally if a jutsu counters one it counters it regardless of element.

Same reason why Daikodan doesn't answer to Doton, or any other element for that matter.

Kisames Suiton is a blatant counter to Jiraiyas Doton.



WorldsStrongest said:


> This post btw



I'll address tomorrow, if I don't tag me because I forgot.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Kisames best feat BY FAR is beating a V2 Jin...Who is NOTHING TO A FOUNDER TIER FIGHTER.
> 
> But sure...No issues there.



Jiraiyas best feats are feats or fleeing.

Does that mean he can't fight?

And his beat feat is that and raping Gais full strength with a single arm while on 30%

Gai who smashes boulders no diff

Also, didn't Gais strength one shot your boy Jiraiya?



WorldsStrongest said:


> you are literally dismissing like 95% of said evidence out of hand for NO REASON.



Because that evidence has either been addressed or I've been insulted so much to the point of me not answering.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Turrin hasnt texted me back after I beat his ass tho!"



You saying I beat his ass?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sure kidd



Dat backpeddle and concession holy shit lol!


----------



## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Who said it wasn't a viable method?
> 
> I will buy you a shark skinned dictionary if it helps.





ShinAkuma said:


> However anybody with half a shark brain can tell that nobody cares how far Kisame can toss Bunta, as this isn't the summon tossing event at sharkapolooza, this is a combat situation



So you admit to not having half a brain?



ShinAkuma said:


> Highly unlikely he's just gonna sit there and let himself get ganked by Kisame.



As if Kisame who bested Bee who NO DIFFED Sasuke is gonna have trouble outmeneuvering Buntas big fat ass


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Do you have any evidence of Shukaku's physical ability?



No I don't.

IT'S THE FUCKING POINT

You do not know how they COMPARE

So when you say "Gyuuki is x times stronger" it's purely fanfiction



> ...which is pretty much a ridiculous statement when you look at their performances in canon when compared to each other.



Well of course it's ridiculous, it doesn't fit your agenda.

What a shocker.

But I'm sure if there was a quote about summons "don't judge a summon by their size" you would be all over it.



> Proven with feats. Whether or not you want to accept them is up to you



You have proven Gyuuki is strong, but you have not proven how his strength compares with Shukaku's. Again - missing the point.



> Yet Gyuuki and Kurama were physically far more capable than the other Bijuu they were fighting? What isn't adding up?



Strength and power and capability are not mutually inclusive.



> ...because Ponta got stomped by someone comparable to said Bijuu that is superior to Shukaku.
> You seem to be the one who has a problem with accepting feats.



You do not know Pontas power level, therefore it's not possible to use him as a measurement of how Kisame would fare against anybody else.



> How is it nonsensical?



False equivalency is nonsensical by definition, that's how.



> There's nothing particularly special about any large creature that isn't some giant mass of chakra.
> They have a few tools here and there, but that's not what we're referring to when concerning strength. Perhaps overall strength... I'm merely talking about what it would take to defeat these creatures in a physical contest.



Why would Bunta only engage in a test of physical might?

Don't answer that, it's rhetorical.



> Size is the best way to measure their strength.



It's not an arm wrestling contest, it's a fight.



> It's not a joke. If Ponta didn't have weapons of his own to hurt Kisame, he likely would have never approached him.
> Why downplay...



Of course it's a joke because it's a line of reasoning predicated on a false equivalency and a double standard.

Ponta having claws matters, but Bunta having a giant sword does not.



> It's good that we're getting closer to the same page. I don't deny that Gamabunta can give Kisame a chase. What I don't agree with is how long the fight will last when Kisame does reach him. What is your stance on that matter?



Enough to be a factor in Kisame's fight with Jiraiya.

Remember Bunta is one of Jiraiya's options when fighting Kisame.



> So you agree that Kisame can easily defeat Gamabunta in a physical contest?



Yes Kisame would defeat Bunta.



> The entire point revolves around Kisame being comparable in physical strength with Gyuuki that has shown capabilities far above Shukaku's. If you disagree with that, be my guest. It would be rather strange for Shukaku to somehow be the lone exception when all other Bijuu were getting wrecked in a physical match.



I have given no stance on how Shukaku's strength compares to Gyuuki, mainly because we do not know. We knows the 8 tails is more powerful but we do not know how that translates to a strength comparison.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> So you admit to not having half a brain?



You really need that dictionary don't you homie?

Until I can commission you a shark skinned dictionary you can use this: 



> As if Kisame who bested Bee who NO DIFFED Sasuke is gonna have trouble outmeneuvering Buntas big fat ass



Yeah, I mean it's not like Bunta can't jump miles or anything.

If he was Kisame's summon I'm sure that fact would be SUUUUUUUUUUUPPPPEEEERRRR relevant.


----------



## Rai (Dec 1, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Vice (Dec 1, 2018)

This thread is a goddamned cancer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## King1 (Dec 1, 2018)

And people doubt me when I say troysse is the most entertaining poster in the NBD


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Samehadas surface area is straight up not large enough to tag the entirety of a Boss Summon+ sized swamp tho



But it PULLS chakra to it, just like EVERY form of chakra absorption.

It literally PULLS Bee's V2 cloak TO IT when it got hit, this is fucking shown on panel kiddo.



WorldsStrongest said:


> So Kisame is just gonna stick Samehada inti a swamp and wait for the enter thing to drain directly onto Samehada and not get tagged with anything at all while stuck there waiting for said thing to happen unable to move or use Samehada at all?
> 
> And you fucking accuse me of dishonesty



As if Kisame has to wait longer than a fraction of a second.

Whatever u think Samehada's limit is, either 6 V1 tails or a V2 cloak, EITHER dwarf Jiraiya's entire reserves 100x over.

Samehada can absorb this amount instantly.

There's not enough chakra in yomi numa to even slow Kisame down, period.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Exactly what im saying will happen here



It absorbed the bare minimum of what it needed to because it hates Katon.

Every other instance we've seen Samehada absorb shit, it absorbs as much chakra as it can, and PULLS chakra toward it.



WorldsStrongest said:


> and at best is peer to YN.



Fucking gross

No matter what you think, Daikodan is portrayed as the all around superior tech to Yomi Numa, don't even try this garbage shit.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Daikodan, if given enough time, would beat YN tho i agree.



Samehada can absorb a V2 cloak in a fraction of a second.
Daikodan, Kisame's ultimate final stand tech needs "time" to absorb something that has a fraction of the chakra as a jin cloak has.

Sure, sure.



WorldsStrongest said:


> elemental wheel gg is a valid argument



So Kisame's Suikodan neg diffs Madara's Majestic demolisher flame?

So Kisame's Suikodan neg diff stomps Adult Sasuke's Rikudo chakra Katon?

Elemental wheel gg right?

No dude.

If the gap is HUGE, the elemental wheel DOES NOT apply, it's not an automatic victory under ANY circumstance.

Either Madara's or Sasuke's largest Katon's no diff disperse Suikodan.

Again, use ur fucking head.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Kisames suitons arent magically exempt from the wheel



So every Katon user in the verse insta lose to a basic Suiton tech from Kisame, since elemental wheel gg right?

They could all combine and it wouldn't make a difference, Elemental wheel gg

Gotcha.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You mean that fight where Kisame didnt hit anywhere near as hard as a Biju can at any point and merely damaged Bee cuz he drained him out of his V2 state before doing damage to him



Kisame goes for Sabu and Ponta
Bee builds momentum in the chase toward him
Kisame turns around when he baits Bee closer and halts Bee's momentum and strength
The reason those feats of strength against each other don't look amazing for either is because they were operating on a NEARLY equal playing field in terms of strength, there is barely a gap to showcase.
Tsunade vs Sakura wouldn't look impressive either in strength.
just like Kisame vs Bee doesn't look impressive in strength

Two near equal combatants of one stat isn't going to be highlighted because it's pointless.

The underwater clash is the one nod to their equality.



WorldsStrongest said:


> The medium the force is applied in only makes a difference when comparing it to another force when said forces are comparable
> 
> And they arent here



Are u saying Rasengan breaches A4's V1 cloak with the same ease that Chidori did?



WorldsStrongest said:


> So its fucking OK for you to call something thats 30% of Buntas size, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, "comparable" to Bunta overall...



I'm saying that we can properly analyze the gap.

With the amount of ease Kisame disabled Ponta, it gives us a general idea of how he would perform against something 3x heavier and stronger.

He can do it with effort.

Plain and simple.



WorldsStrongest said:


> But when I say 30% of Kisame is a comparable portion of his full strength, im dishonest
> 
> Jesus...In the same fucking post and everything
> 
> Fuck yourself with this hypocritical nonsense



Because i'm talking about weight and size.

Kisame had difficulty breaking Gai's defense, he could have done it but he opted for the quickest result.

He was baring down on Gai with ONE ARM, and he was yelling and visibly angry, he was putting in just about as much effort with one arm as possible.

He smiled and called Ponta unworthy of being shredded.

Kisame gives praise to Gai, calling him "one of the three strongest taijutsu users hes ever faced" (who these other two are I have no fucking clue, seems like a totally baseless statement coming from him but w/e)

To say Kisame could replicate the feat vs Gai say on 10% is baseless, Gai would at least halt 10% Kisame's one armed assault, Kisame would need two arms to break his defense.

There's nothing wrong with saying Kisame will overpower Bunta due to the EASE he overpowered Ponta with, it was a literal no diff.



WorldsStrongest said:


> *BASE* Gai did that



Base Gai who smashes boulders rather than dodging them

Literally easier for him to break them than dodge them.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Still matched it
> 
> And hey
> 
> ...



Gai was calling it superhuman RELATIVE TO HIM.



WorldsStrongest said:


> o he didnt
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I said, Kisame opted for the quickest result.

If Kisame kept baring down, Gai's defenses would have buckled.

If Kisame applied that second arm to the pressure, Gai's defenses would have buckled quickly

He did it to 1. Land a direct hit on Gai
2. Achieve the most effective and quickest result.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Learn to fucking read
> 
> I never said "Gai wasnt damaged"
> 
> I Said "Gai didnt take an injury that IMPEDED him"



He was hurt, coughing blood is a sign of significant injury.

And ofc Gai carried on, this a testament to his will and stamina.

Neji carried on fighting after having a tree piercing arrow drilled through his intestines.

Gai had the will to save his team.
Neji had the will to win for his comrades
Kisame had the will to break his restraints and kill himself.

List goes on

Will can overcome injury in this manga, this is a well established fact as we saw in just about everyones story.

Fuck Jiraiya willed himself back to life momentarily ffs.

Will>Injury to a degree short of being killed, and Jiraiya even defied THAT.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Or did you miss the part where he FOUGHT OFF 5 FUCKING SHARKS after taking that hit, went 6th Gate which has HELLA strain but still didnt feel the injury from kisames punch, dumpstered Kisames 30% clone with a Gated tech with EVEN MORE STRAIN and doesnt feel the injury here either, CONTINUED ON MISSION and broke a barrier to enter an Akatsuki hideout, fought a clone of himself and won while still not impeded by the injury, AND THEN CARRIED KAKASHI HOME WHILE STILL NOT FEELING THE INJURY
> 
> Also, Mr. Triggered OP, you have no damn ability to make me leave a thread whatsoever
> 
> ...



Gates provide a momentary BURST OF ENERGY, they don't drain the user.

The negative effects are ONLY FELT AFTER, NOT WHEN USED, AND NOT DURING, BARRING THE 8TH GATE THIS IS NEVER SHOWN TO BE THE CASE (where Gai's bones were breaking after a single Sekizo step)



WorldsStrongest said:


> Hate to break it to you kid, but Kisame was so fucking misinformed after facing Gai not once, not twice, but THREE FUCKING TIMES, that he thought his be all end all move (hirudora) was NINJUTSU...Not Taijutsu...
> 
> Get rekt kiddo



Any logical person, no matter how smart they are would assume Hirudora, looking directly at it and with no knowledge would assume it's a Ninjutsu. Its functionality makes no sense. Hirudora is unlike ANYTHING Kisame has ever seen, this is clear (being a Taijutsu and all)

Nobody in the manga that we know of has ever shown that, barring POTENTIALLY Dai, whom Kisame didn't even fight so the point is moot. And his statement before that takes place makes no sense (that Kisame has fought 2 other comparable Taijutsu users)

Oh wow I bet ur surprised i'm discarding a positive Kisame statement, how about that  

Well it makes no sense, and if something makes no sense i'm gonna call it regardless of my perceived biases.

If Kisame had Samehada that end battle would have gone WAY differently.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

C'mon @WorldsStrongest still waiting for your unimpressive response


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> C'mon @WorldsStrongest still waiting for your unimpressive response


Ill beat your ass when i get home and off mobile

Dont you worry

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Ill beat your ass when i get home and off mobile
> 
> Dont you worry



All it's gonna be is a long drawn out way of you saying you concede, but sure


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## A Optimistic (Dec 1, 2018)

Try not to get banned again you two.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> All it's gonna be is a long drawn out way of you saying you concede, but sure


You get more deluded with every post


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You get more deluded with every post



I look foward to you "proving me wrong"

@Avalon no worries, Worlds won't get banned even he flames me into the dirt

If I say shut up back when he goes on one of his little tangents on me, i'll get slapped with a month and a half long ban

Really should be saying "Have fun with your ban troy, enjoy your immunity Worlds"


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## A Optimistic (Dec 1, 2018)

You took me off ignore?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> You took me off ignore?



Just gotta not say anything opposing u because -30,000 rep abuse.

Any argument you address to me will be ignored, just so you know.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> he goes on one of his little tangents on me,


I really think this kid is a troll or truly that far gone

Did he not go on a bs tangent about me earlier in this very thread?

Like come on 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Really should be saying "Have fun with your ban troy, enjoy your immunity Worlds"


> This very threads OP literally calls everyone who disagrees with him a "shit debater"
"ERNEGERD THE MODS ARE SO BIASED AGAINST ME I NEVER DO ANYTHING WRONG"

Remember what i said earlier about delusion kids?


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## A Optimistic (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Just gotta not say anything opposing u because -30,000 rep abuse.



I only negged you cuz you negged me like 10 times first.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> > This very threads OP literally calls everyone who disagrees with him a "shit debater"



I call people who ignore 2/3rds of my post shit debaters

Because they are

That is the very reason they are shit debaters, well one of them.

And if I get banned for saying it then the mods are gonna get told off big time, and i'll eat that perma without hesitation.



WorldsStrongest said:


> RNEGERD THE MODS ARE SO BIASED AGAINST ME I NEVER DO ANYTHING WRONG"



When you and TDTS circle jerked and taunted me, and I defended myself I GOT BANNED.

for three goddamn weeks

Even TDTS messaged Blu...certain mods to ask them wtf they're thinking


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I only negged you cuz you negged me like 10 times first.


Also just gonna point out ive been banned right alongside troy before

This "immunity" hes bitching about straight up doesn't exist

Kid just genuinely cant see that his bans are ever justified


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

The current NBD mods do have it out for me, the last ban spoke volumes.

They're literally encouraging people to taunt and insult me because they know i'll respond, and apparently the cause of the ban shouldn't be assessed, only the reason for being banned.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Because they are


See?


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> When you and TDTS circle jerked


He said something that poked fun at you and I responded literally once to my memory and said responce amounted to no more thsn a sentence and an emote

Id hardly call that a circle jerk


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> the last ban spoke volumes.


Dude youve done nothing but bitch about EVERY ban youve ever received

You ever think half your issue might be crying wolf?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dude youve done nothing but bitch about EVERY ban youve ever received
> 
> You ever think half your issue might be crying wolf?



You ever think maybe the mods just don't like me?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> You ever think maybe the mods just don't like me?


Dont know why i fucking bother


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## Topace (Dec 1, 2018)

Somehow the point of the thread has been lost along the way

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont know why i fucking bother



You're right, the mods are of the epitome of justice, fairness and equality.

Hell we should just get rid of the supreme court and put the NBD mods in charge of people's actual lives.


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## Vice (Dec 1, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> You ever think maybe the mods just don't like me?



I can totally see why.


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I only negged you cuz you negged me like 10 times first.



LOL good to know it's not just me he negs relentlessly!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jikaishin (Dec 1, 2018)

This thread was doomed from the start to become like this

Arguing against someone who honestly thinks Kisame is doing anything other than dying against Nagato, can only end one way after all

But it was somehow entertaining

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Dec 1, 2018)

The taste of bitterness and salt reeks from this thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kayz (Dec 2, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Why are people acting as if Gamabunta briefly putting up a fight against Shukaku means anything and suggests that Kisame can't? Not only is Shukaku a shit Bijuu compared to the likes of Gyuuki, but Gamabunta was holding his own and not winning. We already know that the likes of *both Raikage* can physically contend with Gyuuki, and there's at least the canon premise that Killer B is superior to Ei in the physical department. What we also know is that Kisame is physically superior to Killer B up to V1 and can match V2 when he's merged with Samehada. That basically proves V2 is truly the power of Bijuu contained in humanoid form when Taijutsu specialists in each Raikage as stated before have fought Gyuuki with their bodies. Someone that is arguably stronger like Kisame due to relative strength performances we've seen between all of these characters should have no problem handling Gamabunta in the same fashion that we saw against Ponta.


Note: It's only the third that can contend physically with Gyuki. Where did you get the 4th matching physically?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 2, 2018)

C'mon @WorldsStrongest or do you concede?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 2, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> C'mon @WorldsStrongest or do you concede?


Still not home bud

Away from home for the weekend

Youll get it dont you worry

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Still not home bud
> 
> Away from home for the weekend
> 
> Youll get it dont you worry



So you have time to jerk Sasuke off in Hebi Sasuke vs Kisame and engage in every other debate

But not this one?

Keep running kid, I accept your concession.


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## Omote (Dec 2, 2018)

7 pages for this

I wish my bait was this good


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 2, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> So you have time to jerk Sasuke off in Hebi Sasuke vs Kisame and engage in every other debate
> 
> But not this one?
> 
> Keep running kid, I accept your concession.


You go ahead and quote any TLDR i made

Go on

Do it


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## Troyse22 (Dec 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You go ahead and quote any TLDR i made
> 
> Go on
> 
> Do it



1000 small posts

Could have responded to my post.

But you won't

Because you've lost, and you know it.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 2, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> 1000 small posts
> 
> Could have responded to my post.
> 
> ...



Told you id respond when I get home and here you are bitching cuz its not on your time

This thread is doing a great job at torpedoing your credibility around here. As if that ship hasn't already sailed.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Told you id respond when I get home and here you are bitching cuz its not on your time





If u have time to participate in a bunch of other threads, and put forth an argument for Sasuke beating Kisame as well, you have time for this.

You're simply looking for a way to get out of the debate, just concede if u don't wanna do it man, idgaf



WorldsStrongest said:


> This thread is doing a great job at torpedoing your credibility around here. As if that ship hasn't already sailed.



Brings up fair points that weren't, and still aren't being addressed

"DURR DURR DURR UR CREDUHBILITY THOOOOOO HAHAHAHAAHAHAH"


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 2, 2018)

MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> If u have time to participate in a bunch of other threads, and put forth an argument for Sasuke beating Kisame as well, you have time for this.
> 
> You're simply looking for a way to get out of the debate, just concede if u don't wanna do it man, idgaf
> 
> ...


Still dont see a TLDR from me 

I just see someone acting like a jealous child still


----------



## Troyse22 (Dec 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Still dont see a TLDR from me
> 
> I just see someone acting like a jealous child still





MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> If u have time to participate in a bunch of other threads, and put forth an argument for Sasuke beating Kisame as well, you have time for this.
> 
> You're simply looking for a way to get out of the debate, just concede if u don't wanna do it man, idgaf


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 2, 2018)

Still no TLDR 

More moronic bullshit tho


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 2, 2018)

This is gonna be EPIC!


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 3, 2018)

After all this bitching and moaning for me to "reply to my post worlds"

"Notice me senpai"

"You only pay attention to other posts why not mine"

"I dont care that you said you were busy with real life shit because your reply this forum post is important to me"

THIS is the dumpster fire of a post im greeted with when I finally indulge the annoyance

Wow

This is my last fucking reply in this thread

Horrid topic, with an even more ignorant OP who blatantly doesnt WANT to be convinced on anything ever when it relates to Kisame.

Inb4 any of his usual "concession accepted" nonsense.

This thread summed up


Anyone who reads our exchanges can tell theres no concession here...The only thing im conceding on is the fact ive run out of patience, and if half of the arguments in this thread cant convince you to even BUDGE on ANYTHING then your just that set in your ways and you made this thread with literally no other objective aside from starting controversy.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> But it PULLS chakra to it, just like EVERY form of chakra absorption.


Didnt pull the Katon towards itself but even assuming yore correct here

It still needs TIME TO DO THE PULLING

I havent argued that YN is somehow immune to being absorbed, im just saying the very fucking nature of it requires fucking time to eat DUE TO SURFACE AREA

Want an EXACT example IN CANON using a SUPERIOR ABSORPTION TECHNIQUE that STILL ADHERES TO SURFACE AREA RULES?

Sure troy, why not. I fucking hold your hand through every other basic fucking thing in this manga so why not this.

Why would I assume you would know that the ,   and 

When a V2 cloak shits on the chakra quantity of a COR or Goemon, PRETA PATH still needed fucking time to eat that shit.

SO WILL SAMEHADA

Youre wrong here. Again. Concede and stop acting like a child for once in this thread please.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> As if Kisame has to wait longer than a fraction of a second


He does

Cuz preta path does.

And Preta Path >>>> Anything Kisame has in terms of eating chakra.

"Get mad kid"

And fucking concede.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Every other instance we've seen Samehada absorb shit, it absorbs as much chakra as it can, and PULLS chakra toward it.


And needs to wait for said chakra to get to it before it can eat it just like Preta path does

Which takes time

Concede


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Fucking gross


No

Thatd be your every opinion regarding Kisame

2 A ranked techniques are easily fucking peers

Especially when one technique has the advantage of the elemental wheel in its corner


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> No matter what you think, Daikodan is portrayed as the all around superior tech to Yomi Numa


No it fucking isnt

Whats Daikodans portrayal troy?

"HURP DURP I DONE DOES ABSORB STUFFS"

How does that paint it as a massive fucking degree greater than YN in terms of base to base standing?

Oh thats right...It fucking doesnt.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Samehada can absorb a V2 cloak in a fraction of a second.
> Daikodan, Kisame's ultimate final stand tech needs "time" to absorb something that has a fraction of the chakra as a jin cloak has.
> 
> Sure, sure.


Preta path >>>>>>>> Kisames entire arsenal at absorbing shit and Preta path plays by this rule

next time you bring up this piss poor fucking argument im ignoring your dishonest ass


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> So Kisame's Suikodan neg diffs Madara's Majestic demolisher flame?
> 
> So Kisame's Suikodan neg diff stomps Adult Sasuke's Rikudo chakra Katon?
> 
> ...


> I fucking OUTRIGHT STATE "if the two techniques are comparable"
> Troy acts like hes fucking discovered fire when he points this out in his next post and acts as tho hes debunked fucking anything

Garbage

Learn to read my posts in their entirety lest I waste more time than necessary on your pathetic arguments repeating myself ad naseaum


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> So every Katon user in the verse insta lose to a basic Suiton tech from Kisame, since elemental wheel gg right?





MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Kisame goes for Sabu and Ponta
> Bee builds momentum in the chase toward him
> Kisame turns around when he baits Bee closer and halts Bee's momentum and strength
> The reason those feats of strength against each other don't look amazing for either is because they were operating on a NEARLY equal playing field in terms of strength, there is barely a gap to showcase.
> ...


Can anyone else reading this bullshit find me an instance in this entire "paragraph" of non arguments ONE INSTANCE of a Kisame doing a Biju level feat?

Cuz this was Troy's response to that EXACT prompt...And I dont see one.

So basically what Im asking you people to do is confirm for me that Troy has, once again, wasted my fuckin time and tap danced around a simple yes or no question cuz he knows he in the fucking wrong. Again.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Are u saying Rasengan breaches A4's V1 cloak with the same ease that Chidori did?


Yeah it would

Rasengan and Chidori are nigh equal techniques with Rasengan being arguably slightly superior.

A is taking damage through his RnY from Rasengan if Chidori damaged him. Tho it isnt like the damage in question is a big deal whatsoever as shown on panel. Wont even slow A down, but the fact remains hed be damaged at least a little.

A3s RnY is a different story, before you make that false equivalence and pat yourself on the back for making a shitty argument Ill just preemptively shut that shit down.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> I'm saying that we can properly analyze the gap.
> 
> With the amount of ease Kisame disabled Ponta, it gives us a general idea of how he would perform against something 3x heavier and stronger.
> 
> ...


I dont give a flying fuck how you justify it

You outright laughed at the notion of me saying Kisame at 30% was a sizable portion of Kisames physical strength, but then you fucking turn around and say that something 30% the size of Bunta is of comparable size to bunta.

Youre a fucking hypocrite. Plain and simple.

30% is fucking 30%...You either find it a laughable percentage across the board, or a sizable percentage across the board.

THE NUMBER DOESNT FUCKING CHANGE.

You either think a THIRD of something is significant, OR YOU DONT. You cant fucking pick and choose.

Yet you elected to pick and choose anyway...Cuz thats how sub fucking par your arguments are.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Gai was calling it superhuman RELATIVE TO HIM.


While matching his strength in Base 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> As I said, Kisame opted for the quickest result.
> 
> If Kisame kept baring down, Gai's defenses would have buckled.


Headcanon


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> He was hurt, coughing blood is a sign of significant injury.
> 
> And ofc Gai carried on, this a testament to his will and stamina.


Coughing blood isnt a sign of significant injury

Its a sign damage was done...That it.

Lol at "testament to will and stamina" when gai was TOTALLY FINE after taking the hit.

And as if a hit from kisame is worth fucking writing home about 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Gates provide a momentary BURST OF ENERGY, they don't drain the user.


ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME

You dont read this manga.


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> The negative effects are ONLY FELT AFTER


AND THEY WERENT FELT AFTER

NOT EVEN WITH "ALL THE DAMAGE" KISAMES PUNCH DEALT TO GAI

THATS MY ENTIRE FUCKING POINT


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> Any logical person, no matter how smart they are would assume Hirudora, looking directly at it and with no knowledge would assume it's a Ninjutsu




Kay

All in the name of sucking Kisame off I guess

"Any logical person" would realize that a Taijutsu specialist, that theyve have been told is a Taijutsu specialist, outright telling them that "hey im gonna use Taijutsu" means they are about to use fucking Taijutsu.

Now please tell me more about how Kisames career as an espionage ninja makes him "One of the smartest characters in the series"

As if espionage isnt a fucking STAPLE in a Ninjas day to day 


MawDezrtarsh22 said:


> unimpressive response


THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF MY LINE


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## Troyse22 (Dec 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Horrid topic, with an even more ignorant OP who blatantly doesnt WANT to be convinced on anything ever when it relates to Kisame.



Same goes to you regarding Sasukes fanfic injuries, shut your mouth kid.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Why would I assume you would know that the ,   and



Neither indicate a significant amount of time

It was done to show Pretas abilty, showing the size of his Rasengan decreasing does that. 

That doesn't indicate a significant amount of time took place.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Goemon, PRETA PATH still needed fucking time to eat that shit.



And Samehada has on panel feats of pulling chakra far away from it, Preta doesn't.

Kisame and Samehada were sent flying by Bees V2 lariat

Samehada only grabbed the chakra when a fair distance away.

The "pulling" range from Samehada is much larger.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Whats Daikodans portrayal troy?
> 
> "HURP DURP I DONE DOES ABSORB STUFFS"
> 
> ...



Because this is Kisames final, strongest move. YN is something Jiraiya whips out for fun. 

It was portrayed nearly peer to Hirudora, and a tech that required a Hirudora like force to answer,YN doesn't have portrayal comparable.

BTW rank is not a power indicator, who the fuck are you now? Turrin?

All that shows is difficulty to learn the jutsu. Wielding it effectively requires skill, but rank itself is no measure of actual power.

Talks about dishonesty meanwhile misrepresents information to bolster his argument

Garbage.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah it would
> 
> Rasengan and Chidori are nigh equal techniques with Rasengan being arguably slightly superior.
> 
> ...



Idk why A3 wankers act like he no diff tanked a FRS with 0 damage.

He was actually pretty fucked up. Relative to him thats fighting condition, but saying he brushed it off is a fucking lie.

If he wasn't an Edo his injuries were going to effect him badly. He NEEDED Edo Regen..

The gap between A3s and A4s durability is tiny. While I do A3 has superior strength and durability, it's not above A4s by much. If it all.

This, coupled with the conviction A3 displayed regarding the new surpassing the old is an indicator that his son is above him 

A3 is not some unstoppable Force where he can run around while living just laughing at FRS' hitting him 

Rasengan he would laugh off.
So would A4 though.

You need massive penetrating power or NEAR FRS level DC to breach the Raikages V2 cloaks.

V1 Ay is not getting breached by Rasengan, it doesn't have the piercing power OR the DC



WorldsStrongest said:


> You outright laughed at the notion of me saying Kisame at 30% was a sizable portion of Kisames physical strength, but then you fucking turn around and say that something 30% the size of Bunta is of comparable size to bunta.



Because you worded it in a way that was making it sound like you meant "majority"

Ofc 30% is a considerable percentage, it's literally 1/3rd of his overall power.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Headcanon



Kisame using the quickest, most effective method is headcanon

A seasoned combat veteran like Kisame doing this? Wank and headcanon.

Yeah yeah



WorldsStrongest said:


> Lol at "testament to will and stamina" when gai was TOTALLY FINE after taking the hit.
> 
> And as if a hit from kisame is worth fucking writing home about




He had the will to save himself and his TEAM, one of which he considers a fucking son.

I gave examples of people willing through significant injury and you, as usual, ignored my argument.



WorldsStrongest said:


> NOT EVEN WITH "ALL THE DAMAGE" KISAMES PUNCH DEALT TO GAI
> 
> THATS MY ENTIRE FUCKING POINT



Because plot.

Just like him carrying Kisames big ass back to turtle island after having used Hirudora, a feat that, based on everything we know shouldn't have been possible. Let alone after Kisame breaks out of Mokuton for Gai to be ready for battle AGAIN.

Plot plot plot.



WorldsStrongest said:


> K





WorldsStrongest said:


> "Any logical person" would realize that a Taijutsu specialist, that theyve have been told is a Taijutsu specialist, outright telling them that "hey im gonna use Taijutsu" means they are about to use fucking Taijutsu.
> 
> Now please tell me more about how Kisames career as an espionage ninja makes him "One of the smartest characters in the series"



As if he didn't get cucked by plot.

His death was rushed kid, as I explained in another thread you were actively participating in.



WorldsStrongest said:


> As if espionage isnt a fucking STAPLE in a Ninjas day to day



Jiraiyas stupid ass gets caught right away

Kisame hides for days-weeks with active sensors around
Assassinated a feudal lord, the only one on the fucking face of the Earth to accomplish that.
Tell me more about how piss poor Kisame is at espionage and infiltration


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## JuicyG (Dec 3, 2018)

hmm it has ended?


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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 18, 2018)

Jiraiya has no chance to defeat Kisame in a fair 1v1 battle. What is often neglected is that the only reason Jiraiya was able to activate his Toad stomach technique in the first place was because Kisame and Itachi were momentarily distracted by naruto and sasuke, not to mention they were in the optimal location for the technique: a closed corridor.  In a fair rematch, that wouldn't get the better of Kisame so easily because he won't be on the retreat, and he would logically launch an attack at jiraiya while jiraiya is crouched on the ground casting the technique.  Jiraiya has to keep his hands on the ground in order to actively control the stomach as shown in the canon. What is stopping Kisame from weaving his own handsigns in response and launching a shark bomb jutsu at the crouched Jiraiya? That would force Jiraiya to release direct control and prepare a defense. Depending on the location, that technique won't even be a viable option in a rematch. Kisame is a swordsman who verifiably has bijuu levels of strength.  The proof is all there. Asuma commented on Kisame's ability to keep him pressed down with the tip of his sword alone back in Part one. Guy commented on 30 percent Kisame's incredible strength. Neji compared that same nerfed Kisame in chakra reserves to kyuubi enhanced naruto. And Finally Chojuro commented that Kisame has chakra comparable to that of a Jinchuriki just before Kisame's battle with Killer Bee started. Jiraiya as far as I know doesn't have any Close combat Skills to suggest he can handle a seasoned swordsman like Kisame without the help of his ninjutsu. But that's the problem, once Kisame gets in close, rasengan just gets absorbed, Lion's mane gets drained. We have seen that Samehada is not only essentially as tall as kisame, it doesn't need to directly touch chakra to absorb,  but we have even seen samehada expanding in length in the killer Bee Fight... And at that point when Kisame is right in Jiraiya's face weaving handsigns won't be viable for Jiraiya because the canon showed that swordsmanship>handsigns in close quarter combat. The fight ends right there.

Jiraiya however is smart enough to know he can't afford to let Kisame get close, so he would open the fight with a smoke bomb and attempt to create some space, hide, use guerilla tactics, and stall for sage mode. Except at that point, Kisame is experienced enough to just go for the waterdome, fuse with his sword, activate chakra sensing. And Jiraiya is basically screwed in the water dome.  It's also highly unlikely that jiraiya can turn Kisame into stone, because Kisame has bijuu levels of chakra and jiraiya would need to survive long enough to fill Kisame up with enough nature energy to cause that to happen. In this fight, Kisame won't be probing Jiraiya for chakra, he is simply gonna absorb whatever Jiraiya throws at him as he closes the distance with his superior speed underwater, and then impale him with spikes and go for a killing blow.
The only way I see Jiraiya coming out of this alive is if this fight takes place after Kisame loses ownership of samehada.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 18, 2018)

Why does Jiraiya defeat Kisame? Since Kisame flat out said Jiraiya and the Sannin were much stronger than him. From feats, portrayal, and general terms of power, Jiraiya is just much, much stronger than Kisame. This is the same man who could kill Nagato if he had prior knowledge of the Six Paths of Pain, and gave Pain a massively difficult fight and neutralized three of the paths at once. This is the same man, who in his base form, completely one-shot a Akatsuki member of Kisame's level in Konan quite easily. 

Kisame's best feats are only done when he has consumed a massive amount of chakra, its not something he can do regularly. And even if you afforded him a chakra gorging binge beforehand, he _still_ wouldn't be able to defeat Jiraiya. Jiraiya just has way too many techniques that counter Kisame (from his Space-Time Summoning, Yomi Numa being able to counter Kisame's Suitons due to the elemental advantage, abilities that make it suicidal for Kisame to get up close...), and that isn't even going into Sage Mode. If Jiraiya is in Sage Mode, Kisame can't even land a blow and would be fodder for Fukasaku and Shima's genjutsus and other techniques. 

The manga flat out said Kisame was inferior. The manga showed Jiraiya as one of the most powerful shinobi to ever live (something Kisame doesn't have). Sorry, Kisame is weaker than Jiraiya and has always been.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Dec 18, 2018)

Wtf, this thread is total bait- and I’m falling for it. Garbage. 

Title: Why does Jiraiya beat Kisame 

Thread: Why does BASE Jiraiya lolstomp kisame nerdsz. 

It’s fairly obvious- everything impressive from kisame is done while amped. 

Any argument you make for kisame beating Jiraiya- makes massive assumptions that contradict the manga about base Kisame/not in the ocean. 

Non-amped on land kisame just doesn’t compare feat wise to Jiraiya. That’s why he loses. 

It’s literaly all pure fanon, the entire kisame side. Kisame doesn’t do half the things your claiming he can. 

If you’re arguing that kisame in the Ocean beats jiriya, sure. If your arguing eight tails amped- sure. But base? Base kisame doesn’t do anything remotely close to Jiraiya.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 18, 2018)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Wtf, this thread is total bait- and I’m falling for it. Garbage.
> 
> Title: Why does Jiraiya beat Kisame
> 
> ...


Even amped or ocean Kisame doesn't have the stuff to beat Jiraiya if he's in Sage Mode.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 18, 2018)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> gave Pain a massively difficult fight


Lol


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> could kill Nagato if he had prior knowledge of the Six Paths of Pain,


Lol again


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 18, 2018)

If that toad that casually blocked Samehada's - durability/strength feat can be translated to the rest of the toad armada then Kisame is recieving the shorter end of the straw unfortunately.


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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 18, 2018)

Kisame said that Jiraiya was PROBABLY stronger than him based on hype and hype alone. His exact words were, "I'm not so sure about me". He clearly stated that Jiraiya's title as a Sannin put him in a different league compared to his own namesake as a Hidden Mist Swordsman. Kisame never actually fought Jiraiya and had zero intel on Jiraiya's actual physical abilities when he said that. So that doesn't prove that Kisame would lose to him in a 1v1 battle. If anything, it would improve Kisame's chances of winning because he would be cautious of Jiraiya and not take any big risks.

Furthermore, there is context behind Nagato's statement. When They fought each other, Nagato had zero intel on Frog Song while Jiraiya had zero intel that there were 6 bodies plus Nagato himself hiding. If Pain didn't have his secret, then he would have lost to frog song because it's obvious that Nagato himself was caught in the genjutsu. The Pain corpses don't have a mind, it's Nagato's conscious that is transfered to each body and as a result he can see and hear anything the bodies see and hear. It was clearly stated in the canon that his technique was comparable to the mind transfer technique. Jiraiya won the fight right there, but he didn't know that the real Nagato himself was still in play. So Jiraiya and his frogs released the genjutsu and killed the 3 bodies and went about their way, allowing Nagato to then send his other 3 paths and flank Jiraiya from behind.... So when Nagato said without his secret, he PROBABLY couldn't have won, it meant that Jiraiya > 3 paths of pain and therefore he could perform the genjutsu, bind all the pain bodies and Nagato himself. Then Jiriaya kills the real Nagato. IF Jiraiya faced all 6 paths of pain at once, knowledge or not, he would be stomped. As per canon, Deva path uses Bansho Tenin on the sage frog while it's trying to cast the genjutsu and kills it, rendering any chance Jiraiya has of winning null. And that assumes Jiraiya even lives long enough to enter sage mode against all 6 paths in the first place, which is unlikely. 


Kisame himself already canonically has Bijuu levels of chakra so I don't see why he can't replicate the feats he has already shown in the canon. A 30 percent version of himself filled the landscape with water in just a couple of panels. If Kisame isn't jacked up on Bijuu chakra stolen from a Jinchuriki, it just means he has to put more of his own bijuu levels of chakra into his techniques. Ninjutsu increases in scale the more chakra that the user moulds, as per canon. 

Jiraiya isn't entering sage mode against Kisame, that is for sure. This is a 1v1 fair battle. The match starts, and Kisame will charge at Jiraiya with caution because like you said, he is scared of Jiraiya's legend. He already nearly got "one-shotted" by one of Base Jiraya's base techniques before, so he won't slack off against Jiraiya and give him the chance to use it again. Jiraiya weaves the seals and uses Yomi Numa? Great, Samehada absorbs ninjutsu as per canon. Kisame would continue his charge while samehada absorbs the earth nature chakra at Kisame's feet. Kisame is already nearly in close quarters range at that point. Samehada is as tall as kisame is and doesn't even need direct contact to start absorbing chakra.... Jiraiya tries to use summoning ninjutsu? Great, Kisame reaches forward with  Samehada (he can increase samehada's length if he needs to, as per canon) and steals away his chakra before he can finish resolving the summon, as per canon, as he did to Naruto back in part one. Jiraiya tries to use Odama Rasengan? Great, Shark skin enjoys the spiraling sphere for lunch... As the fight progress, Jiraiya grows weaker, and Kisame grows stronger. Jiraiya's movements begins to dull, and eventually, Samehada shreds Jiraya's neck, GG. Kisame knows Jiraiya is on a different level, which is why he won't let Jiraiya have any chances to  make a comeback in this fight. Jiraiya, as a ninjutsu specialist, simply has an awful matchup against someone like Kisame, because Base Jiraiya does not have the CQC skills or the speed or the necessary skills in subterfuge to escape Kisame's close quarter combat and anti ninjutsu tactics. He also doesn't have the raw chakra quantity to overload samehada's absorption capablities. Last I checked, Samehada can absorb up to 6 tails of chakra from the second strongest Bijuu in one meal. In just a couple of strikes, Killer Bee himself was stated to be essentially out of chakra, meaning Kisame already drained out Killer Bee's regular reserves,  and he would have been too tired to continue fighting if Gyuki didn't supply him more. If Jiraiya could use genjutsu in base or had better clone feinting skills, it would be possible, but Kisame is otherwise too experienced and cautious of Jiraiya.


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