# 8th Gate vs. Narutoverses Megazords



## Joakim3 (Apr 8, 2014)

Simple, can Gai breach them and if he can, how long would it take for him to kill it/user

Madara's 2km PS
Sasuke's PS
Gedo Mazo
BSM Avatar
Shinsuusenju

*Starting Distance:* 1 km
*Stipulations:*
Megazords are allowed to fight back


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## U mad bro (Apr 9, 2014)

Gai gets raped.  I hate all this Gai masturbation lately. It takes away from the feat more than make him look good. I approve this thread.


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## klutchii (Apr 9, 2014)

Gai is a monster in 8 gates but honestly I see him losing to all these megazords except maybe sasuke's ps considering we don't have enough feats for it


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## Trojan (Apr 9, 2014)

Guy should be able to destroy all of them. His punch did even destroy madara's black orbs which is stronger 
than those jutsus you listed. Although, I'm not sure if the black orbs were destroyed because he attacked madara from inside of them  or not. @.@


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## U mad bro (Apr 9, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Guy should be able to destroy all of them. His punch did even destroy madara's black orbs which is stronger
> than those jutsus you listed. Although, I'm not sure if the black orbs were destroyed because he attacked madara from inside of them  or not. @.@



Those black orbs are strong against character based attacks. Evening elephant is a shockwave not a move born from chakra.


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## iJutsu (Apr 9, 2014)

Gai tips over Shinsuu which crushes the others. It's just a matter of killing Hashirama afterwards. None of them can hit Gai, so they're not really any threat to him.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Gai stomps. Look at who he's currently fighting. Jubidara himself is bloodied & battered, and the two seem to be having an even duel. That should tell you just how far above anyone here Gai is.


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## U mad bro (Apr 9, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Gai tips over Shinsuu which crushes the others. It's just a matter of killing Hashirama afterwards. None of them can hit Gai, so they're not really any threat to him.



Where do you get that type of thought pattern from? Madara is slower than Gai yet he still would have killed him if not for ftg. Obito is hurt and invaded Madara space. That tells you that at the top ranks the can react to eachother. Even if some is faster than others. Especially if you have move that can blow away an entire battlefield. Gai doesn't even have durability.  If he just get winged he is done.


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## Jad (Apr 9, 2014)

Gai poses one question to them

"Do you want to live?"

If they answer yes, they walk away. The others however.


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## The Undying (Apr 9, 2014)

Guy embarrasses them and turns them into fucking Pez dispensers.


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## U mad bro (Apr 9, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> U mad bro?
> 
> Where was it said this is Juudara? Normal Madara doesn't have rinnegan, sage sensing, or Juubi chakra. And lol at no durability, Gai tanks his own tiger attack at point blank range, moves back to Kakashi's position and uses 8th gate with no rest. Get your head out of your ass.



Lol you seem mad not me. Normal Madara would still speed rape 7th gate guy he is not slow. Secondly the thread is asking whether or not 8th gate can break through Madara in perfect susanoo. Which he can't it doesn't have a convenient loophole like senjutsu or taijutsu. It is an all around defensive structure. Learn to read. That is my message of the week. Read don't skim , don't wank read.


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## Blanco (Apr 9, 2014)

Throw a complete juubi in there this isn't fair at all


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## Bonly (Apr 9, 2014)

After the Last chapter Might Gai can take them all out, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 9, 2014)

None of these are on the level of madara's black chakra when it comes to defense. Guy's Evening elephants fifth step>>>> naruto BSM bijuudama and sasuke's senjutsu enhanced V3 arrows combined. Guy shatters all the opposition in this thread.


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## Lurko (Apr 9, 2014)

Guy soloes this shouldn't even be a question.


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gai stomps. Look at who he's currently fighting. Jubidara himself is bloodied & battered, and the two seem to be having an even duel. That should tell you just how far above anyone here Gai is.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Gai couldn't even kill Juubidara with a direct hit with his most powerful attack.  Do you think Juubidara's body is more durable than PS, the BSM avatar, etc?




As for the topic, I think if he wails on them enough, he can breach all of them eventually.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Yes, by far.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 9, 2014)

Gai rapes, he fucking bends spacetime by just moving. That is outright relativistic speed.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I would definitely be likely for Kishi to draw NM bouncing off Perfect Susano'o after almost splitting Jubidara in two. ck


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## The Undying (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Do you think Juubidara's body is more durable than PS, the BSM avatar, etc?




Do you think it's _not_?


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I would definitely be likely for Kishi to draw NM bouncing off Perfect Susano'o after almost splitting Jubidara in two. ck



Since when does PS being more durable = ANY of Gai's attacks bouncing off of it?

PS is more durable than Bee.  Bee gets wrecked by a bijuudama.  Does that mean bijuudamas bounce off of PS?



The Undying said:


> Do you think it's _not_?



let me also ask, by what logic do you put JJ Madara's durability above PS?  *This is what a mere SM rasengan did to juubito. * Does being a juubi jink or merely being A>B>C logically powerful mean you are more durable than any character beneath you?  Is BSM Naruto w/o his chakra avatar more durable than Itachi's susnoo w/ Yaata?  Is EMS Madara more durable than sandaime raikage?


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Since when does PS being more durable = ANY of Gai's attacks bouncing off of it?
> 
> PS is more durable than Bee.  Bee gets wrecked by a bijuudama.  Does that mean bijuudamas bounce off of PS?



Whatever.

I guess Kishi would definitely draw PS stopping Gai's attacks that nearly broke Jubidara in half. Makes perfect sense. 



> Let me also ask, by what logic do you put JJ Madara's durability above PS?  *This is what a mere SM rasengan did to juubito. *.



Jubito ≠ Jubidara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 9, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Gai rapes, he fucking bends spacetime by just moving. That is outright relativistic speed.



Guy's space-time taijutsu.


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## LostSelf (Apr 9, 2014)

It seems people or doesn't understand the hype and portrayal, or doesn't want to understand them.


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## Kai (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Do you think Juubidara's body is more durable than PS, the BSM avatar, etc?


By far he is. That isn't even a question.

A Juubi's Jinchuuriki can tank a Juubi Jinchuuriki's Bijuudama *without issue*. Note that:
a) a Juubi's bijuudama is more powerful than its laser
b) a Juubi's Jinchuuriki bijuudama is more powerful than any of the witnessed Juubi stages


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## Joakim3 (Apr 9, 2014)

Kai said:


> By far he is. That isn't even a question.
> 
> A Juubi's Jinchuuriki can tank a Juubi Jinchuuriki's Bijuudama *without issue*. Note that:
> a) a Juubi's bijuudama is more powerful than its laser
> b) a Juubi's Jinchuuriki bijuudama is more powerful than any of the witnessed Juubi stages



I can't 

When did Obito or Madara tank there own Juubidamas? If a Juubi Jin was _that_ durable Obito would never resort to using _Onmyoton_ to defend against a normal none SM _BM Bijudama_ and would flat out lol tank it (the way PS, BSM Naruto or Shinsuusenju have done and do ). I'll tell you why... because if your not a Biju, Gedo Mazo or the Shinju itself it's virtually instant death...

When did people start getting the notion that just because the Shinju can tank one of it's Juubidama's the its *Jinchuuriki* can with zero feats to even emply such. Thats like saying BSM Naruto can survive the body slam Obito gave him *without* his avatar because he's stronger the Kurama or that Gai's punches _exceed_ the strength of even a normal Bijudama

It's mind numbing logic 

If Gais physical attacks are doing this much damage, what do you think a Multi-Gigaton _Bijudama_ would do if it connected (hell the traveling force was liquifying mountains). Im not even going to debate a Juubidama






Or let me put it this way...... do you honestly think 8th Gate Gai could physically injure the Shinju when it flat out tanked this with ZERO damage


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## Trojan (Apr 9, 2014)

Obito attacked himself with his own black orb, but he lost half of his body. Though he just healed himself.


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## Kai (Apr 9, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> I can't
> 
> When did Obito or Madara tank there own Juubidamas? If a Juubi Jin was _that_ durable Obito would never resort to using _Onmyoton_ to defend against a normal none


Obito tanked his own bijuudama while he was still mentally struggling against the Juubi. Absolutely no application of Onmyouton there. 

None of the megazords listed have tanked anything close in power to a Juubi Jinchuuriki's bijuudama.




			
				Joakim3 said:
			
		

> If Gais physical attacks are doing this much damage, what do you think a Multi-Gigaton _Bijudama_ would do if it connected (hell the traveling force was liquifying mountains). Im not even going to debate a Juubidama


Damage success/effectiveness on a Juubi's Jinchuuriki isn't determined by how much destruction the jutsu can cause. A senjutsu or high level taijutsu attack will yield greater results against a JJ than a mountain busting bijuudama.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 9, 2014)

Kai said:


> Obito tanked his own bijuudama while he was still mentally struggling against the Juubi. Absolutely no application of Onmyouton there.
> 
> None of the megazords listed have tanked anything close in power to a Juubi Jinchuuriki's bijuudama.



It was A) _Onmoyoton_ seeing a Bijudama doesn't expend and then implode). It atomized half his body (which I wouldn't consider tanking) and he regenerated from it.

Thats a lot different than surviving _Super Bijudama_ that vaporizes everything within 100km



Kai said:


> Damage success/effectiveness on a Juubi's Jinchuuriki isn't determined by how much destruction the jutsu can cause. A senjutsu or high level taijutsu attack will yield greater results against a JJ than a mountain busting bijuudama.



Which again goes against the very notion of him using Onymoton to defend himself against RM Naruto's & Sasuke's _Enton: Rasenshuriken_ (which damaged him, and required regen and is NOT senjutsu enhanced)

Second until Obito actually tanks a mountain busting _Bijudama_ with zero damage your argument has no weight. I on the other hand have weight for my argument as Obito canonically shielded himself from high level none SM attack which means he believed they could damage/kill him despite them being none senjutsu based


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> Or let me put it this way...... do you honestly think 8th Gate Gai could physically injure the Shinju when it flat out tanked this with ZERO damage



You like to use OBD calcs, right? 

I believe the OBD is calculating Gai's attacks above that of Bijudama.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You like to use OBD calcs, right?
> 
> I believe the OBD is calculating Gai's attacks above that of Bijudama.



Link me


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## Lurko (Apr 9, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Do you think it's _not_?



The sad part is he does.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 9, 2014)

Oh God.

I solo'd this debate going on above weeks ago.

Don't make me have to copy and paste all that shit. LMAO.


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## Lurko (Apr 9, 2014)

You make me LMAO.


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Whatever.
> 
> I guess Kishi would definitely draw PS stopping Gai's attacks that nearly broke Jubidara in half. Makes perfect sense.


Um, yes he would, and it makes perfect sense when you consider what you literally just quoted.  A>B>C logic of durability has been falsified CONTINUOUSLY in the manga.  EMS Madara has no where near the durability of Sandaime raikage, yet who's obviously the stronger shinobi? It's the same thing here.




Rocky said:


> Jubito ≠ Jubidara.


They don't need to be equal, by your logic, a rasengan should do major damage to PS since Juubito >>>>> EMS Madara and he gets a hole in his back from a SM rasengan.  Do you believe that?

And think about your logic in reverse.  If JJ Madara is more durable than PS, then he can take a barrage of bijuudamas or hundreds of shinsuusenjuu punches without being killed.  Now compare that to Juubito getting a hole in his back from a normal-sized SM rasengan.  That would put Madara tiers beyond tiers above Juubito in durability, the difference between the two would be greater than Sandaime raikage and konohomaru.  Yet that's obviously not true, and your A>B>C logic would obviously not lead to that conclusion.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> EMS Madara has no where near the durability of Sandaime raikage, yet who's obviously the stronger shinobi? It's the same thing here.



The Jubi Jinchuriki have pretty massive physical stat increases across the board. That example isn't really comparable.



> They don't need to be equal, by your logic, a rasengan should do major damage to PS since Juubito >>>>> EMS Madara and he gets a hole in his back from a SM rasengan.  Do you believe that?



My logic doesn't have anything to do with Jubito. I also think Gai would end Jubito's existence with Night Moth. He'd probably do it with Evening Elephant based on the damage Rasengan did.



> And think about your logic in reverse.  If JJ Madara is more durable than PS, then he can take a barrage of bijuudamas or hundreds of shinsuusenjuu punches without being killed.  Now compare that to Juubito getting a hole in his back from a normal-sized SM rasengan.  That would put Madara tiers beyond tiers above Juubito in durability, the difference between the two would be greater than Sandaime raikage and konohomaru.  Yet that's obviously not true.



Woah now. 

Madara is _not_ tiers above Jubito in durability? Why? 

I certainly don't think Jubidara would be killed by Renzoku Bijudama or Chōjō Kebutsu at this point.


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Jubi Jinchuriki have pretty massive physical stat increases across the board. That example isn't really comparable.


To that extent? What evidence is that based on?



Rocky said:


> My logic doesn't have anything to do with Jubito. I also think Gai would end Jubito's existence with Night Moth. He'd probably do it with Evening Elephant based on the damage Rasengan did.


No your logic definitely does have to do with juubito since the logic you use to put madara on such a pedestal would also apply to juubito.



Rocky said:


> Woah now.
> 
> Madara is _not_ tiers above Jubito in durability? Why?


How bout you tell me why they SHOULD be tiers different despite the fact they are both powered by the juubi.



Rocky said:


> I certainly don't think Jubidara would be killed by Renzoku Bijudama or Chōjō Kebutsu at this point.


Based on *Gai's strongest attack* being *far far weaker than renzoku bijuudama or chojou kebutsu?*

Or is it based on madara getting wrecked by attacks that don't even come close to the power of a normal bijuudama?


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> To that extent? What evidence is that based on?



When you have generic enhancements to strength & speed, durability usually comes with.



> No your logic definitely does have to do with juubito since the logic you use to put madara on such a pedestal would also apply to juubito.



Madara is more complete than Jubito though. He has Kurama & Gyuki (kinda a big deal imo).



> How bout you tell me why they SHOULD be tiers different despite the fact they are both powered by the juubi.



General power scaling and Madara having the two strongest Biju while Obito didn't. 



> Based on *Gai's strongest attack* being *far far weaker than renzoku bijuudama or chojou kebutsu?*



lol. First off, that scan is the collateral damage from _both_ attacks, 

Secondly, I cannot _fathom _what kind of damage NM would do to the environment if Gai actually kicked...the environment. The force of that attack was transferred to Madara's rib from Gai's leg upon impact, shattering both. When Gai & Madara rammed the Shinju, it was at a lesser force than the original impact of the moth on Jubidara, as it was just Gai's momentum propelling them after that.

Also, that crater it made was not small in any way, and Taijutsu doesn't even function like a bomb. AoE ≠ power, unless it's the same type of technique.


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## Veracity (Apr 9, 2014)

Yeah I do to think the Juubi host is even as durable as Kurama or PS. Not even close lol.


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## Ersa (Apr 9, 2014)

Kurama was singed by a FRS, Juubito tanked a FRS amplified by Amaterasu, an attack that forced the Juubi to it's knees. And Juubi already tanked a Juubidama inside it's own stomach. Juubi Madara is much more durable then Perfect Susanoo and Kurama  If Gai kicked Kurama he'd be sending him to the moon in half.


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## Veracity (Apr 9, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Kurama was singed by a FRS, Juubito tanked a FRS amplified by Amaterasu, an attack that forced the Juubi to it's knees. And Juubi already tanked a Juubidama inside it's own stomach. Juubi Madara is much more durable then Perfect Susanoo and Kurama  If Gai kicked Kurama he'd be sending him to the moon in half.



Kurama has never been hit by FRS. 50% Kurama was simply knocked on his ass when FRS was not thrown but slammed dead on into his dome.

Juubito can tank any Justu because Justu has no effect on him lol. Only senjutsu or taijustu attacks have any effect on him. And they themselves don't have any "extra" effect on Juubi users, just fashion as regular based attacks. KCM Naruto fired FRS at Juubito so it did no damage.

Juubito had a part of his back blown apart by this sized resengan; *far far weaker than renzoku bijuudama or chojou kebutsu?*

Naruto needed around 100 gigantic Kyuubi enhanced resengans just to level Madara's base novice level Moukton forest( possibly Hashirama's weakest Justu) ; *far far weaker than renzoku bijuudama or chojou kebutsu?*

Sage Hashirama needed around 100 well placed Buddah hits to just just the shoulder off of PS. Each Buddah hand can freaking pick up Kurama like a doll. Each fist itself is ATLEAST 30 times more powerful then that resengan Naruto used against Juubito. And Hashirama needed 100 of those. Or was it around 1000? 

So unless you assume that current Madara is 3000 times more durable then Juubito then Gai isn't as strong as you claim. He's just fucking fast.

Gais night moth doesn't even crack PS.

Juubi users aren't really that durable tbh outside of the black shield. They just are completey immune to Ninjustu. So it's a pretty fucking good trade off.


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## Ersa (Apr 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Kurama has never been hit by FRS. 50% Kurama was simply knocked on his ass when FRS was not thrown but slammed dead on into his dome.
> 
> Juubito can tank any Justu because Justu has no effect on him lol. Only senjutsu or taijustu attacks have any effect on him. And they themselves don't have any "extra" effect on Juubi users, just fashion as regular based attacks. KCM Naruto fired FRS at Juubito so it did no damage.
> 
> ...


Um no, he was hurt and injured.

So yes he's capable of tanking Juubidama, no it's not that ninjutsu doesn't work on him (it doesn't work on his black shields) but that the Juubi Jinnchuruki is just that durable. He's far beyond Kurama, not to mention Madara is above Juubito as per Minato's statement. 

Senjutsu is his weakness, damage is amplified. Has no bearing when comparing how someone who shrugs off Enton-amped FRS tanks a monstrous kick when compared to PS or Kurama which were damage by Buddha and FRS respectively.

Comparing a senjutsu Rasengan to a base Rasengan is cute and all. Kinda forgetting the senjutsu part is the Juubi hosts weakness? Hashirama busted PS with the equivalent of 9 PS-sword infused TBB, something Juubito could tank in his sleep considering he shrugged off an attack that had Juubi on his knees.

Now a stronger Juubito (Madara) was almost split in half by Night Moth. If Gai aims at the head of PS, he's ripping through PS and Madara with ludicrous ease I might add.


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> When you have generic enhancements to strength & speed, durability usually comes with.


i'm asking you what's are the exact strength and speed enhancements that you talk of exactly.




Rocky said:


> Madara is more complete than Jubito though. He has Kurama & Gyuki (kinda a big deal imo).


Sure, and i can definitely agree it could put him on another level of durability than juubito.  However, cmon now.  Getting your back blown open by a senjutsu rasengan vs PS+ level durability.  That's levels magnitudes apart.




Rocky said:


> General power scaling and Madara having the two strongest Biju while Obito didn't.


His physical abilities and onmyouton manipulation don't even seem any different from Juubitos.  But anyways, having kurama and bee does not let him get PS+ durability when Juubito gets a second anus.




Rocky said:


> lol. First off, that scan is the collateral damage from _both_ attacks,


Continuous attacks, meaning it went on for more than that instance that the scan took a picture of.  And plus, even if you cut the attack's volume in half, it's still makes gai's explosion look like an ant.



Rocky said:


> Secondly, I cannot _fathom _what kind of damage NM would do to the environment if Gai actually kicked...the environment. The force of that attack was transferred to Madara's rib from Gai's leg upon impact, shattering both. When Gai & Madara rammed the Shinju, it was at a lesser force than the original impact of the moth on Jubidara, as it was just Gai's momentum propelling them after that.


Sure you might be able to argue that, however I don't think that's what kishi was going for.  He usually makes the raw explosions from attacks = their power so that the readers can get an idea.  Perfect example is shinsuusenjuu.  It creates an explosion from its punches = to the explosions of the bijuudamas.  Logically, that should mean shinsuusenjuu is outputing much more power than the bombs, but that's not what kishi is trying to depict to the reader.



Rocky said:


> Also, that crater it made was not small in any way, and Taijutsu doesn't even function like a bomb. AoE ≠ power, unless it's the same type of technique.


AoE of explosions are consistent for the most part.  Taijutsu does function like a bomb at least when it's used directly on the environment, and when Gai uses them (Hirudorah for example).  Also, kishi is pretty consistent with AoE/total environmental destruction caused by taijutsu moves in regards to their power.


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## trance (Apr 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Kurama has never been hit by FRS. 50% Kurama was simply knocked on his ass when FRS was not thrown but slammed dead on into his dome.







> Juubito can tank any Justu because Justu has no effect on him lol. Only senjutsu or taijustu attacks have any effect on him. And they themselves don't have any "extra" effect on Juubi users, just fashion as regular based attacks. KCM Naruto fired FRS at Juubito so it did no damage.
> 
> Juubito had a part of his back blown apart by this sized resengan; Um no, he was hurt and injured.
> 
> ...



SIze =/= power. With an unamped Shinra Tensei, Pein sent all three Gamas (who are as large as skyscrapers) flying several kilometres. 

Sakura can oneshot centipedes that are a dozen meters long. With a single Rasengan, Naruto can oneshot the Asura path whereas a combination of Raikiri and a giant-sized fist could not completely put it down.


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> SIze =/= power. With an unamped Shinra Tensei, Pein sent all three Gamas (who are as large as skyscrapers) flying several kilometres.
> 
> Sakura can oneshot centipedes that are a dozen meters long. With a single Rasengan, Naruto can oneshot the Asura path whereas a combination of Raikiri and a giant-sized fist could not completely put it down.



when you are talking about attacks that explode, size is pretty much the only thing that we can use to gauge power.

You can use that, or you can use A>B>C logic. Bijuudama >> FRS >>>> SM COR >> SM OR >> SM rasengan.  Using that you can safely say that getting hit by a rasengan will not do as much damage as getting hit by SM oodama rasengan and above.


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## Ersa (Apr 9, 2014)

Why do people keep forgetting Juubi (which tanked it's own Juubidama) who is more durable then PS by miles was hurt badly by Enton FRS and forget that Juubito* later tanked the same attack without his black shield*?

Or that Madara is more durable by virtue of having Kurama and Gyuki and a statement suggesting he is superior in all areas?


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## trance (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> when you are talking about attacks that explode, size is pretty much the only thing that we can use to gauge power.



Let me rephrase that; Size =/= power all the time.

From what has been demonstrated, Gai's "Sekizo" lack any insane AoE (at least on the level of shit like bijudamas or Chou Shinra Tensei) but the amount of energy concentrated into each attack is considerable. To say that his attacks won't crack Perfect Susanoo at all is a pretty unjustified claim IMO.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 9, 2014)

The man bended space by moving, the amount of force that probably went into that kick is un imaginable.


Imo it makes no damn sense for kishi to make a more powerful madara less durable then a previous weaker madara, not only that but im pretty sure madara didn't forgot how to use susano, if he felt it would work why didn't he try and use it? But you know that damage control


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Why do people keep forgetting Juubi (which tanked it's own Juubidama) who is more durable then PS by miles was hurt badly by Enton FRS and forget that Juubito* later tanked the same attack without his black shield*?
> 
> Or that Madara is more durable by virtue of having Kurama and Gyuki and a statement suggesting he is superior in all areas?


You can't forget something that didn't happen.  Juubito is immune to ninjutsu, only senjutsu and taijutsu work on him. 

Think about it, if ninjutsu actually worked on them, but senjutsu was simply super effective against a Juubi jink, then why would Minato say *this?*  That link means that you either believe (like me) that ninjutsu is inneffective and senjutsu as well as taijutsu allows you to damage them, or BOTH senjutsu and taijutsu are super effective against the juubi jinks.  But then that would lead you to the conclusion that Gai's performance against madara wouldn't mean he could do the same against say a giant chakra construct since his taijutsu isn't super effective. 

Bottom line is that either way you slice it, Madara has to be thousands upon thousands of times more durable than juubito in order for one to claim that Gai busts PS.



Bkprince33 said:


> The man bended space by moving, the amount of force that probably went into that kick is un imaginable.
> 
> 
> Imo it makes no damn sense for kishi to make a more powerful madara less durable then a previous weaker madara, not only that but im pretty sure madara didn't forgot how to use susano, if he felt it would work why didn't he try and use it? But you know that damage control


No one is arguing that Kishi is making Juubidara less durable than EMS Madara.  We're arguing that Juubidara is less durable than PS, and that's based on evidence like Gai's strikes not having anywhere near the power we've seen at VoTe.  Also, don't you think that a PS created by a Juubi jinchuriki should have durability proportional to Juubidara?


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## Veracity (Apr 9, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Um no, he was hurt and injured.
> 
> So yes he's capable of tanking Juubidama, no it's not that ninjutsu doesn't work on him (it doesn't work on his black shields) but that the Juubi Jinnchuruki is just that durable. He's far beyond Kurama, not to mention Madara is above Juubito as per Minato's statement.
> 
> ...



Hurt a bit I guess lol more surprised. But did you also forget that that was 50% Kurama was hit with that same tech like 5 min later + 25 gigantic Resengans and was more aggravated then hurt ? ; Um no, he was hurt and injured.
And by no means does 50% Kurama even come close to full powered Kurama.

Scan for juubidama? Also is that not a Ninjustu which is negated by the Juubis body ? 

Ninjustu doesn't work on Juubito lol, he takes no damage from it at all. That's why he shields himself from mere senjutsu attacks( small resengans ) but walks through Ninjustu like mud. It's also implied here when Tobirama says that senjutsu works against his, considering he black orbs didn't block anything; Um no, he was hurt and injured.

It's never been stated that senjutsu amplifies the attack at all. And even if it did somehow, it's natural energy vs natural energy. It shouldn't be that unfair lol. Especially to make a regular resengan stronger then an FRS+ Enton combination. It's not stated, and wouldn't even make sense considering this is just natural energy vs natural energy.

A base resengan 5 times the size of a senjutsu resengan should equal out.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> You can't forget something that didn't happen.  Juubito is immune to ninjutsu, only senjutsu and taijutsu work on him.
> 
> Think about it, if ninjutsu actually worked on them, but senjutsu was simply super effective against a Juubi jink, then why would Minato say *this?*  That link means that you either believe (like me) that ninjutsu is inneffective and senjutsu as well as taijutsu allows you to damage them, or BOTH senjutsu and taijutsu are super effective against the juubi jinks.  But then that would lead you to the conclusion that Gai's performance against madara wouldn't mean he could do the same against say a giant chakra construct since his taijutsu isn't super effective.
> 
> ...



Fair enough jubidara should have a stronger ps, but Imo it still doesn't answer why he didn't use it? Gai was clearly a life threatening opponent, and if the translation is correct madara admitted not having any control over the situation.

and I have to disagree, night moth would kill both hashirama, and ems madara, if gai uses it on them, even if you want to argue it's not as strong as, kyubi ps, and the buddah, there is no way hashirama, or ems madara,  could avoid it when jubidara couldnt. So yeah even if you want to argue, night moth is not as powerful, it's a he'll of lot more dangerous, then any move we seen because who the he'll is out running gai to avoid the move?


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## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Fair enough jubidara should have a stronger ps, but Imo it still doesn't answer why he didn't use it? Gai was clearly a life threatening opponent, and if the translation is correct madara admitted not having any control over the situation.


He didn't use it for the same reason he and Juubito didn't use quad bijuudamas, juubi chakra avatar, shinra tensei etc: that kishi wants to either portray Gai as being on the same level as juubidara, but he's written himself into a corner with the other powers madara should have at his disposal.  So instead of giving Gai more powers, he dumbs madara down.




Bkprince33 said:


> and I have to disagree, night moth would kill both hashirama, and ems madara, if gai uses it on them, even if you want to argue it's not as strong as, kyubi ps, and the buddah, there is no way hashirama, or ems madara,  could avoid it when jubidara couldnt. So yeah even if you want to argue, night moth is not as powerful, it's a he'll of lot more dangerous, then any move we seen because who the he'll is out running gai to avoid the move?


[/QUOTE]
If NM is not as powerful as Kyuusnoo or the buddah, how does he kill them if they are inside their chakra constructs?


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> i'm asking you what's are the exact strength and speed enhancements that you talk of exactly.



The strength & speed enhancements that come from the Jubi's Chakra.



> Sure, and i can definitely agree it could put him on another level of durability than juubito.  However, cmon now.  Getting your back blown open by a senjutsu rasengan vs PS+ level durability.  That's levels magnitudes apart.



Jubidara & Jubito are magnitudes apart.

Madara has 50% Kurama & Gyuki over Obito (and Madara was already physically superior to begin with). Just look at the difference between Base Naruto & BM Naruto, who are worlds apart in terms of....everything. Then add Gyuki.



> But anyways, having kurama and bee does not let him get PS+ durability when Juubito gets a second anus.



Yes, yes it would. Hirodura didn't even scratch Madara in Rikudo form. His durability skyrocketed, while Jubito had a hole put through him with Rasengan as you said.



> Continuous attacks, meaning it went on for more than that instance that the scan took a picture of.  And plus, even if you cut the attack's volume in half, it's still makes gai's explosion look like an ant.



Cutting the volume by 50% would not completely dwarf Gai's "explosion" unless you're underestimating the size of the Shinju. Though, like I said, Gai's "explosion" isn't an indication of Night Moth's power, but the left over momentum from the kick.



> It creates an explosion from its punches = to the explosions of the bijuudamas.  Logically, that should mean shinsuusenjuu is outputing much more power than the bombs, but that's not what kishi is trying to depict to the reader.



I'm not sure how many Bijudama Kurama fired, but it isn't near the _thousands _of punches Shin Susenju threw. One punch from the statue probably wouldn't create an explosion anywhere near that of Bijudama.

Also, please don't try and argue "author depiction" while at the same time attempting to justify Gai failing to shatter Perfect Susano'o or Kurama Avatar, something even Jubito could do with strength. 



> AoE of explosions are consistent for the most part.  Taijutsu does function like a bomb at least when it's used directly on the environment, and when Gai uses them (Hirudorah for example).  Also, kishi is pretty consistent with AoE/total environmental destruction caused by taijutsu moves in regards to their power.



Hirodura is a great example of AoE ≠ Power. What is more powerful, Hirodura or Senpo: Rasenshuriken?

Gai's Night Moth didn't hit the landscape directly and thus cannot be compared to bombs (which have the same AoE regardless of what they hit) or punches that _did_ contact the ground, like Hashirama's statue's.


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## Veracity (Apr 9, 2014)

Madara blocked AT with his black staff of destiny. Not his body at all.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> He didn't use it for the same reason he and Juubito didn't use quad bijuudamas, juubi chakra avatar, shinra tensei etc: that kishi wants to either portray Gai as being on the same level as juubidara, but he's written himself into a corner with the other powers madara should have at his disposal.  So instead of giving Gai more powers, he dumbs madara down.
> 
> 
> 
> If NM is not as powerful as Kyuusnoo or the buddah, how does he kill them if they are inside their chakra constructs?



I'm sorry bro but it's the author, we can't dictate to him what we feel is right, at the end of the day all we can do is paraphrase, imo i rather go with the answer madara probably though it wouldnt work vs oh kishi just dumbed him down to make gai look good.

It's clear he couldn't really react to gai anyway.








even if gai doesn't destroy it with one attack he would just run circles around it and pick it off until he finally destroys it, then hashi is a sitting duck.

Same for susano, the megazords won't be able to properly guard against such a fast target and will be alot more vunerable to his strikes.


This all assuming they can withstand space bending power to begin with of course.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Madara blocked AT with his black staff of destiny. Not his body at all.



How does one "block" and island-sized shockwave with a staff a few inches in diameter? Even Gai himself took damage from AT, and he wasn't even the target of the attack..


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## Veracity (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> How does one "block" and island-sized shockwave with a staff a few inches in diameter? Even Gai himself took damage from AT, and he wasn't even the target of the attack..



You mean the legendary staff of the sage that defies logic from the get go lol? 

Kishi makes it evident that Madara blocked the attack with his staff btw. The entire time Gai is taijustu rushing Madara, he is dodging the attacks with the staff behind his back; *deflect 5 bijuudamas*

The moment Gai weaves the AT hand sign , is the moment Madara pulls his staff infront of the blast; *deflect 5 bijuudamas*

If you look closely, you can also see the blast pushing AROUND Madara's body and not even making contact with him. Why is this? Because he has the damn staff blocking the shockwave of the attack. Why the hell would Madara even pull his staff in front of himself, RIGHT after Gai prepped for AT. You think that was just fun for Gai ? Lol no.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> If you look closely, you can also see the blast pushing AROUND Madara's body and not even making contact with him. Why is this? Because he has the damn staff blocking the shockwave of the attack. Why the hell would Madara even pull his staff in front of himself, RIGHT after Gai prepped for AT. You think that was just fun for Gai ? Lol no.



Imo, that was Madara attempting to intercept Gai and chop his arm off, like he did Minato's. It's almost the exact same maneuver. 

It's silly to try and block a shockwave with a staff that thin.


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## Veracity (Apr 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Imo, that was Madara attempting to intercept Gai and chop his arm off, like he did Minato's. It's almost the exact same maneuver.
> 
> It's silly to try and block a shockwave with a staff that thin.



I doubt it. You think Madara dodged all those attacks without using his staff them chose that  specific time to chop Gais arm off ? Madara had IC seen exactly what AT is with his own eyes, as well as the handseals Gai uses before firing it. I'm very doubtful he wasn't trying to block it.

It's also to note that Madara brought his arms over his face , showing discomfort at the mere shockwave of the 7th gate. You think a direct AT to his face wouldn't even logically cause him to move the slightest ? 

The mechanics of the Sage staff aren't even logical. It doesn't have to make sense at all. 

Just like Gai punching out a freaking elephant foot.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I doubt it. You think Madara dodged all those attacks without using his staff them chose that  specific time to chop Gais arm off ? Madara had IC seen exactly what AT is with his own eyes, as well as the handseals Gai uses before firing it. I'm very doubtful he wasn't trying to block it.



If he could've avoided Hirodura, he would've. It's just that I think he realized this one wasn't just another punch and tried to intercept instead. In my honest opinion, if Kishimoto wanted to illustrate Madara blocking the damage, Madara would have went inside the Yin-Yang shell.



> It's also to note that Madara brought his arms over his face , showing discomfort at the mere shockwave of the 7th gate. You think a direct AT to his face wouldn't even logically cause him to move the slightest ?





Covering your face because of a shcokwave does not have any sort of indication on durability. 



> The mechanics of the Sage staff aren't even logical. It doesn't have to make sense at all.



This reminds me of the time Big Sean opened up a verse with "I don't know if this makes sense but..." He was literally free to say anything he wanted because of that line.

You can't just make a claim and then fall back on "it doesn't have to make sense because magic." What's the point of even arguing with that?


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## Veracity (Apr 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If he could've avoided Hirodura, he would've. It's just that I think he realized this one wasn't just another punch and tried to intercept instead. In my honest opinion, if Kishimoto wanted to illustrate Madara blocking the damage, Madara would have went inside the Yin-Yang shell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was not possible for Madara to dodge AT with 7th gate Gai( and all his over the top feats) directly in his face pressuring him , and then firing an AT literally an inch from his face. We already know how fast AT is. Madara was not dodging even if he wanted to. But also because he's used to wielding Sussano, this means that he's use to a block and counter fighting style opposed to literally dodging a fast ass attack right next to him. It's pretty freaking evident that Madara tried to block that attack based on the fact that he blocked AT then counter directly after similar to his fighting style. It doesn't matter if Madara wanted to chop Gais arm off or block anyway, as we have panel evidence that the staff was the thing that blocked the shockwave regardless. If his body tanked the attack then the shockwave would not have curved specifically around the staff and his body. If we go by your logic of it being an "inch in diameter " and not mattering anyway, then the blast would have curved off of the staff and hit Madara dead in his body . Did it ? No, we see the blast curving around the staff and then Madara's body.

OR Kishi wanted to show that Madara had something other then the overused yin shield to block attacks. It adds something unique to his character rather then blocking with the same thing over and over again.

So you are under the impression that Madara who was covering his face from a freaking transformation shockwave would simply not even budge from something 1000 times more concentrated then that exact shockwave that brought upon discomfort enough for Madara to actually want to cover his face ? Lol that's like you convering your face from a ceiling fan, then standing in the middle of a tornado with zero reaction. Lol alright.

But Obito pushing off Amaterasu and spiraling death chakra with 6 singular spheres makes sense? ; Minato's.

The way Obito did that is literally illogical. Is it that hard to assume that these sage tools( already known for unique abilities) have powers that don't really mix with the physics of the actual world? This is a freaking manga lol, no need to being up big Sean. Nobody questioned the fact that both Sasuke and Gai can double jump off thin air, so I don't think any body should doubt this . But hey ya know I don't have explain myself tbh. We have scan evidence that the shockwave curved around Madara never hitting his body so it doesn't matter regardless.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It's pretty freaking evident that Madara tried to block that attack based on the fact that he blocked AT then counter directly after similar to his fighting style. It doesn't matter if Madara wanted to chop Gais arm off or block anyway, as we have panel evidence that the staff was the thing that blocked the shockwave regardless. If his body tanked the attack then the shockwave would not have curved specifically around the staff and his body. If we go by your logic of it being an "inch in diameter " and not mattering anyway, then the blast would have curved off of the staff and hit Madara dead in his body . Did it ? No, we see the blast curving around the staff and then Madara's body.



_Not only_ is attempting any sort of competent guard with that dainty little staff incredibly dumb, but it doesn't even look like a guarding position. Regardless, I do not care about Madara's _intentions_, because I'm telling you that a staff as such would provide no protection from a shock wave like Hirodura nor has it ever been indicated to.

The blast "curving around" Madara is the formation of the damn tiger. You can clearly see the teeth. If you continue reading, you'll see the actual explosion of Hirodura in the subsequent panel, and that very explosion is far too large for a little staff to offer any protection against whatsoever.



> So you are under the impression that Madara who was covering his face from a freaking transformation shockwave would simply not even budge from something 1000 times more concentrated then that exact shockwave that brought upon discomfort enough for Madara to actually want to cover his face ? Lol that's like you convering your face from a ceiling fan, then standing in the middle of a tornado with zero reaction. Lol alright.



Madara was blown back, but wasn't damaged. I'm not sure what your point is. Please explain how Madara covering his face during Gai's power up is indicative of how much damage he should receive from Hirodura.



> The way Obito did that is literally illogical. Is it that hard to assume that these sage tools( already known for unique abilities) have powers that don't really mix with the physics of the actual world? This is a freaking manga lol, no need to being up big Sean. Nobody questioned the fact that both Sasuke and Gai can double jump off thin air, so I don't think any body should doubt this.



There are things in the Manga that defy logic & physics, but this does not grant one a free pass to make a claim and back it with "lol #magic." There has never been any indication that Madara's staff provides a law-defying defense against omnidirectional shock waves, and no, the air didn't curve around him.


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## ueharakk (Apr 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The strength & speed enhancements that come from the Jubi's Chakra.


well i guess that's you conceding that you don't failed to list the exact strength and speed enhancements that i've asked you multiple times to provide evidence of.




Rocky said:


> Jubidara & Jubito are magnitudes apart.
> 
> Madara has 50% Kurama & Gyuki over Obito (and Madara was already physically superior to begin with). Just look at the difference between Base Naruto & BM Naruto, who are worlds apart in terms of....everything. Then add Gyuki.


That's a ridiculously fallacious example since naruto doesn't use the other 7 bijuus powers while he's in base.  If Naruto used the power of the 7 bijuu + part of kurama + part of the gyuuki and then added Kurama's power to that, the relative difference he'd gain would be far far less than what he'd gain from Base to BM.  I'm not even sure if he'd go up a tier considering 50% Kurama is only hyped to be = to 5 of the bijuu.

The thing is though, we are talking about DURABILITY, and even if you were to fallaciously compare BM Naruto to base naruto, their durability do not differ to the extent that one gets a hole in him by a senpou rasengan while another can take a mountain-range vaporizer.  You could compare konohomaru to Juubito and the difference in their durability wouldn't even begin to come close to the difference that you have to necessarily assert exists between Juubidara and Juubito.




Rocky said:


> Yes, yes it would. Hirodura didn't even scratch Madara in Rikudo form. His durability skyrocketed, while Jubito had a hole put through him with Rasengan as you said.


Kakahi, Lee, and Gaara weren't scratched by Hirudorah as well despite being well within its gigantic AoE.  I guess all of them are more durable than Juubito as well.  If hirudorah hit Madara directly, then sure you might have a point, but nope.




Rocky said:


> Cutting the volume by 50% would not completely dwarf Gai's "explosion" unless you're underestimating the size of the Shinju. Though, like I said, Gai's "explosion" isn't an indication of Night Moth's power, but the left over momentum from the kick.


I'm not even using the shinjuu to measure it, im using the crater that Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama made.  The mechanics of Gai's kick are invalidated since the shinsuusenjuu's punches face the same problems.




Rocky said:


> I'm not sure how many Bijudama Kurama fired, but it isn't near the _thousands _of punches Shin Susenju threw. One punch from the statue probably wouldn't create an explosion anywhere near that of Bijudama.


The amount of punches are completely irrelevant.  It could have thrown one, it could have thrown one million, it has nothing to do with the logic that the shinjuu generated an explosion that rivals the bijuudamas despite using only punches and not explosions itself.



Rocky said:


> Also, please don't try and argue "author depiction" while at the same time attempting to justify Gai failing to shatter Perfect Susano'o or Kurama Avatar, something even Jubito could do with strength.


Juubito couldn't do it with his own raw physical strength, he needed the black jinton arms and his super speed to beat Kurama's avatar. 

And think about your logic now.  If you say that Juubito who gets a hole punched in his back can do that to PS and Kurama avatar, then shouldn't Madara who's hundreds of thousands of times more durable, be able to do it with a mere finger?  And therefore shouldn't Gai, someone whose base strength is only multiplied by 100 in the 8th gate be able wreck both PS and KA in base?  




Rocky said:


> Hirodura is a great example of AoE ≠ Power. What is more powerful, Hirodura or Senpo: Rasenshuriken?


*When FRS just explodes instead of going wind sphere, it has a greater AoE than hirudorah......*



Rocky said:


> Gai's Night Moth didn't hit the landscape directly and thus cannot be compared to bombs (which have the same AoE regardless of what they hit) or punches that _did_ contact the ground, like Hashirama's statue's.


hashirama's statue didn't hit the ground, we see them funneled into PS yet they still create explosions that rival the bijuudamas.  We've seen what Gai's midnight moth does when it travels through the landscape: next to nothing, it's only when the attack explodes it generates a bijuudama-sized explosion.


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## Kai (Apr 10, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> It was A) _Onmoyoton_ seeing a Bijudama doesn't expend and then implode). It atomized half his body (which I wouldn't consider tanking) and he regenerated from it.
> 
> Thats a lot different than surviving _Super Bijudama_ that vaporizes everything within 100km


He targeted himself for the blast and it still couldn't annihilate totally; That's also when his mind was struggling against the Juubi which mutilated his physicality. Why should we remain negligent on regeneration when it's not a jutsu but a passive ability of the Juubi's Jinchuuriki?

I doubt a bijuudama from any bijuu short of the Juubi's own would be of any fatal concern to the Juubi's Jin.




			
				Joakim3 said:
			
		

> Which again goes against the very notion of him using Onymoton to defend himself against RM Naruto's & Sasuke's _Enton: Rasenshuriken_ (which damaged him, and required regen and is NOT senjutsu enhanced)
> 
> Second until Obito actually tanks a mountain busting _Bijudama_ with zero damage your argument has no weight. I on the other hand have weight for my argument as Obito canonically shielded himself from high level none SM attack which means he believed they could damage/kill him despite them being none senjutsu based


Obito was unharmed by Enton: Rasenshuriken. The orbs of Yin/Yang were called to his side after he was struck.


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## Veracity (Apr 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> _Not only_ is attempting any sort of competent guard with that dainty little staff incredibly dumb, but it doesn't even look like a guarding position. Regardless, I do not care about Madara's _intentions_, because I'm telling you that a staff as such would provide no protection from a shock wave like Hirodura nor has it ever been indicated to.
> 
> The blast "curving around" Madara is the formation of the damn tiger. You can clearly see the teeth. If you continue reading, you'll see the actual explosion of Hirodura in the subsequent panel, and that very explosion is far too large for a little staff to offer any protection against whatsoever.
> 
> ...



Why would attempting to block an attack with a sage took something dumb ? You clearly don't give the staff credit in any sense. If Obito is able to push apart flames with solid chakra balls then I find no reason to disagree that the shockwave was pushed apart by the the staff which should have the same ability to move shit around in an illogical way just like Obito did.

What other guarding position would he get in? I don't see how using one arm to place the staff( of magical properties) in front of your face is some sort of bad position? Lol.

I'm telling you , that it was indicated to be able to in this chapter. Every thing in the manga has to have a First feat to give he specific move merit. Actually this isn't the first time the black chakra was used as a defensive, as we have the Obito feat to prove That it can be used as a defense regardless of logic or size as already proven.

You serious ? The tigers mouth would not form so open and distorted . Especially considering the mechanics of the Justu simply grab the user then explode. Like used against Madara canonically.

Why do you keep on using the staffs the size to quantify it's defensive ability. That's illogical in this manga, and I've already proven so prior. Obito wouldn't be able to logically push away waves of Amaterasu on his body with like 6 little balls . Those tiny little balls lack the surface area to move fire in the way he did.

I'm saying that because Madara decided to cover his face from the mere shockwave of the 7th gate, that something about one thousand times more powerful would atleast cause him to take a step back, blow him back alittle, or cause him to stumble. I mean he took an AT without moving at all. That doesn't sound right when he decided to block his face from transformation shockwaves. Those waves would really feel nothing if you quantify him taking at with ZERO damage.

The air clearly curved around his body. You already admitted this. And I've already proven how Juubi ali buries defy logic.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 10, 2014)

Kai said:


> He targeted himself for the blast and it still couldn't annihilate totally; That's also when his mind was struggling against the Juubi which mutilated his physicality. Why should we remain negligent on regeneration when it's not a jutsu but a passive ability of the Juubi's Jinchuuriki?
> 
> I doubt a bijuudama from any bijuu short of the Juubi's own would be of any fatal concern to the Juubi's Jin.



He was only hit by a portion of the blast, seeing the _Onmyoton_ imploded leaving a perfect cut on where it the ground and Obito

Because tanking and regen aren't the same thing. One is the completely negation of damage while the other is healing from damage dealt.. i.e you didn't tank it in the first place



Kai said:


> Obito was unharmed by Enton: Rasenshuriken. The orbs of Yin/Yang were called to his side after he was struck.



Except he was hurt and was actively regening when the Onmyoton balls cleared the _Amaterasu_ as you can see the smoke rising from his chest/abdomen 

While yes he wasn't anywhere near one shotted, it still shows that normal ninjutsu _can_ hurt a Juubi Jin.... it just has to be absurdly strong. I.e a Biju/Juubidama since it doesn't have the same effects as senjutsu


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> well i guess that's you conceding that you don't failed to list the exact strength and speed enhancements that i've asked you multiple times to provide evidence of.



You mean the exact feats? Jubito pulling down the Hokage Barrier, Jubidara embarrassing SM Minato mid-blitz, etc.



> That's a ridiculously fallacious example since naruto doesn't use the other 7 bijuus powers while he's in base.  If Naruto used the power of the 7 bijuu + part of kurama + part of the gyuuki and then added Kurama's power to that, the relative difference he'd gain would be far far less than what he'd gain from Base to BM.  I'm not even sure if he'd go up a tier considering 50% Kurama is only hyped to be = to 5 of the bijuu.



I'm only stating that Kurama & Gyuki are quite the sum of Chakra, and the Jubi Jinchuriki have power based on the Biju they've "absorbed." There are clearly reasons Jubidara could be far above Jubito, other than common sense and power scaling of course..



> The thing is though, we are talking about DURABILITY, and even if you were to fallaciously compare BM Naruto to base naruto, their durability do not differ to the extent that one gets a hole in him by a senpou rasengan while another can take a mountain-range vaporizer.  You could compare konohomaru to Juubito and the difference in their durability wouldn't even begin to come close to the difference that you have to necessarily assert exists between Juubidara and Juubito.



I don't know how you keep judging all of this. 

Kakahi, Lee, and Gaara weren't scratched by Hirudorah as well despite being well within its gigantic AoE.  I guess all of them are more durable than Juubito as well.  If hirudorah hit Madara directly, then sure you might have a point, but nope.



> The mechanics of Gai's kick are invalidated since the shinsuusenjuu's punches face the same problems.



The Shin Susenju would've made contact with ground. It is absolutely gargantuan and damaged the landscape just by walking. A thousand-armed Machine Gun barrage of punches towards the ridiculously smaller Kyusano'o is going to cause some collateral damage. Not every hand rammed into Kyusano'o.

Gai's kick most definitely did not contact the ground at impact.



> The amount of punches are completely irrelevant.  It could have thrown one, it could have thrown one million, it has nothing to do with the logic that the shinjuu generated an explosion that rivals the bijuudamas despite using only punches and not explosions itself.



Well one, prove it, because you cannot tell how much Hashirama (or Madara) contributed to the explosion, and two, what's your point then? 



> Juubito couldn't do it with his own raw physical strength, he needed the black jinton arms and his super speed to beat Kurama's avatar.



He could porbably do it with the Chakra arms as well, but it's fine using speed for extra strength and Onmyouton to actually grasp them..



> And think about your logic now.  If you say that Juubito who gets a hole punched in his back can do that to PS and Kurama avatar, then shouldn't Madara who's hundreds of thousands of times more durable, be able to do it with a mere finger?  And therefore shouldn't Gai, someone whose base strength is only multiplied by 100 in the 8th gate be able wreck both PS and KA in base?



Why should Madara be able to do that with just a finger? Why is Madara "hundreds of thousands" times more durable? 

Also, that Rasengan feat could easily be considered an outlier for Naruto, considering later on Jubito tanked SM Kyusano'o's sword slash without bodily harm. Based on what Rasengan did, that should have cut him in half... 



> *When FRS just explodes instead of going wind sphere, it has a greater AoE than hirudorah......*



I'm talking about the wind sphere itself, the thing that actually does the most damage. Look at KCM Naruto's on Sandaime.



> hashirama's statue didn't hit the ground, we see them funneled into PS yet they still create explosions that rival the bijuudamas.  We've seen what Gai's midnight moth does when it travels through the landscape: next to nothing, it's only when the attack explodes it generates a bijuudama-sized explosion.



Hashirama probably did hit the ground, and Gai's attack doesn't explode. When Gai kicked Madara, the impact was the power of Night Moth. If you want to compare it to the VotE attacks, bring me scans of Gai using Night Moth on the ground, similar to how Sakura's ground punch. Let's start there.


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## ueharakk (Apr 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You mean the exact feats? Jubito pulling down the Hokage Barrier, Jubidara embarrassing SM Minato mid-blitz, etc.


Juubito used chakra arms to do that, not his actual arms.
Makes sense for Juubidara to be faster than SM Minato post-FTG.




Rocky said:


> I'm only stating that Kurama & Gyuki are quite the sum of Chakra, and the Jubi Jinchuriki have power based on the Biju they've "absorbed." There are clearly reasons Jubidara could be far above Jubito, other than common sense and power scaling of course..


Sure, like i said i think juubidara can logically be a level above juubito, but we're talking about durability here, and there's a bigger gap between those two than konohomaru and juubito.




Rocky said:


> I don't know how you keep judging all of this.


....i've stated my reasoning at least twice already.  Juubito gets a hole in his back from a normal senpou rasengan.  Madara, by your logic, is more durable than PS.  We know PS can take the equivalent of multiple bijuudamas without getting destroyed.  So you have to necessarily assert that the durability difference between juubito and madara is the difference between a normal senpou rasengan and multiple mountain vaporizers.  For the konohomaru portion, you'd have to hit him with an attack proportionally as weak when compared to the senpou rasengan that hit juubito, and that would be like a normal punch.



Rocky said:


> The Shin Susenju would've made contact with ground. It is absolutely gargantuan and damaged the landscape just by walking. A thousand-armed Machine Gun barrage of punches towards the ridiculously smaller Kyusano'o is going to cause some collateral damage. Not every hand rammed into Kyusano'o.


That would make sense if kishi didn't give us a panel showing us that's not the case.  *Hashirama funnels the arms to hit susanoo and only susanoo.*  Plus you can even see the explosions are coming from the punches that make contact with susanoo and from beneath susanoo, so it can't be punches that missed susanoo and hit the ground next to it.



Rocky said:


> Well one, prove it, because you cannot tell how much Hashirama (or Madara) contributed to the explosion, and two, what's your point then?


I don't need to 'prove' anything since no one can 'prove' an argument if the standard set for the required evidence is high enough.  The *argument *for them being equal is that we see hashirama and Madara are depicted as equals, the clash was depicted as an equal one, the bijuudamas explosions were going outward as well as the explosions created by the shinsuusenjuu.  The manga showed us the combined explosion was more or less symetrical, thus both parties evenly contributed.  We also see only on one side of the explosion destroyed debris which are most likely giant pieces of wood that the bijuudama destroyed, thus the other half would be power that didn't hit the shinsuusenjuu.




Rocky said:


> He could porbably do it with the Chakra arms as well, but it's fine using speed for extra strength and Onmyouton to actually grasp them..


but chakra arms isn't his own raw physical strength, so you can't give that to madara and say he's that strong. 



Rocky said:


> Why should Madara be able to do that with just a finger? Why is Madara "hundreds of thousands" times more durable?


The same reason i keep on telling you over and over.



Rocky said:


> Also, that Rasengan feat could easily be considered an outlier for Naruto, considering later on Jubito tanked SM Kyusano'o's sword slash without bodily harm. Based on what Rasengan did, that should have cut him in half...


The sword wasn't intended to cut him in half, the intention was to rip the juubis out of him...  The sword did however cleave right through his body with no resistance, so it's consistent with the rasengan making a hole.




Rocky said:


> I'm talking about the wind sphere itself, the thing that actually does the most damage. Look at KCM Naruto's on Sandaime.


But the logic is explosion vs explosion, thus comparing the wind sphere to it would not be a genuine comparison.




Rocky said:


> Hashirama probably did hit the ground, and Gai's attack doesn't explode. When Gai kicked Madara, the impact was the power of Night Moth. If you want to compare it to the VotE attacks, bring me scans of Gai using Night Moth on the ground, similar to how Sakura's ground punch. Let's start there.


Gai's attack does explode.  That's why when he initially makes contact with madara via the kick, we see no explosion just like we see no explosion while Gai travels with madara.  It's only at the very end of the technique that we see a gigantic explosion which is most likely caused by that giant chakra/pressure dragon going off after it bites Madara (unless you think it's just for show). We've seen that hashirama's punches explode after going through PS, and the whole reason kishi does give us scans of raw explosions is to relate the general power of a technique.


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