# Sakura vs Sage Mode Kabuto



## Eliyua23 (Aug 23, 2014)

Restrictions: Edo Tensei

Location: Tsunade vs Kabuto

Distance: 25m

Mindset: IC

Knowledge: manga


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## Ghost (Aug 23, 2014)




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## Nikushimi (Aug 23, 2014)

Kabuto destroys Sakura a hundred different ways before she even knows what happened.

She's barely qualified to fight Orochimaru at this point, let alone have any hope of beating him, let alone take on somebody much stronger with an improved version of the same skill set.


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## Jad (Aug 23, 2014)




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## t0xeus (Aug 23, 2014)

...seriously, stop.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2014)

Inb4 lock and mass deleting

Edit: Since most people did it...


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## Mercurial (Aug 23, 2014)

Kabuto wins neg diff... I don't even bother to explain why.

... and please not the EMS Sasuke = KCM Naruto = Sakura bullshit, please. This is becoming ridicolous.


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## StickaStick (Aug 23, 2014)

Manga knowledge favors Kabuto significantly more than Sakura (as she won't be expected to have any intel on him but Kabuto should be aware in general terms of what Sakura is capable of) here to the point where she'll probably be caught off guard early by a Mugen Onsa or Hakugeki and that'll be it.


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 23, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kabuto destroys Sakura a hundred different ways before she even knows what happened.
> 
> She's barely qualified to fight Orochimaru at this point, let alone have any hope of beating him, let alone take on somebody much stronger with an improved version of the same skill set.



pretty much this


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Aug 23, 2014)




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## Nikushimi (Aug 23, 2014)

Ah, what the hell:


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## Cognitios (Aug 23, 2014)

inb4 hussain and turrin


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 23, 2014)

BYEFELICIA


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> ... and please not the EMS Sasuke = KCM Naruto = Sakura bullshit, please. This is becoming ridicolous.


So basically don't bring up the manga cannon to you because you can't handle reality. But to bad i'm doing it anyway:

saku: tsunade-sama… it seems that… I was finally able to catch up with the two of them!!\\

saku: tsunade-sama… it seems that… I was finally able to catch up with the two of them!!\\

saku: tsunade-sama… it seems that…* I* was finally able *to catch up* with *the two of them*!!\\


Learn to accept reality

-------------

On topic Kabuto is like the perfect anti-sakura. His incredible means of regeneration and water-logia powers will allow him to take more hits from Sakura than most. His Sound-Based techniques also bypass Sakura's regeneration, and Manda V2 can probably combat even the massive Katsuya Sakura can summon. Give how well Kabuto matches up against Sakura, I see him winning more often than not. Granted if he gets too cocky in the beginning of the fight he could eat a one-shot punch when he underestimates Sakura, but considering his Sennin Modo sensing and others forms of detection as well as how intelligent he is, and seeing Byakugo-Seal before I don't see that happening very often.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So basically don't bring up the manga cannon to you because you can't handle reality. But to bad i'm doing it anyway:
> 
> saku: tsunade-sama… it seems that… I was finally able to catch up with the two of them!!\\
> 
> ...



Considering she said that *after* Naruto and Sasuke got their Rikudo Power-up and she got dealed with no problem by Juudara, it's contradictory.


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Considering she said that *after* Naruto and Sasuke got their Rikudo Power-up and she got dealed with no problem by Juudara, it's contradictory.


No she didn't say that. She thought back to when she said that and had the feeling of having caught up to them. She wanted to catch them again so she tried her hand at Madara, but failed. The scene was there to show that Naruto and Sasuke had once again surpassed her by a large margin.


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## Itachі (Aug 23, 2014)

Kabuto gets creative with the use of his snake penis.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No she didn't say that. She thought back to when she said that and had the feeling of having caught up to them. She wanted to catch them again so she tried her hand at Madara, but failed. The scene was there to show that Naruto and Sasuke had once again surpassed her by a large margin.



She did think that tho. I can agree with the rest of that tho.


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## RedChidori (Aug 23, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Kabuto sodomizes Sakura with his snake penis .


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 23, 2014)

Blitzing past Byakugan + Juubi sensing; Reacting to Kaguya's Chakra Arm > Anything Kabuto has ever done 

Feats dictate she trashes him, she'll do more than the BD will actually consider her a serious combatant.

Mathematically, Sakura was moving faster than Naruto + Sasuke as she punched Kaguya back down to their hands which barely managed to move half a foot in full-blitz before she was trickled back down to them to be sealed. 

Less than half a foot from her body; Blitzed and drop-punched by Sakura with Byakugan activated; Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot

Kaguya not reacting to her linear drop-punch was an even more surprising feat, she casually punched her in the fucking head with Byakugan activated and having reacted to several instant appearances by Rinnegan Sasuke previously because of said Byakugan and a mixture of sensing. The manga gives us the indication that Kaguya actually perceived her coming ahead of time- but was too slow to do anything before she got drilled without effort. Which means Sakura did better against a stronger version of Kaguya than an instant porting Sasuke did against a weaker version. 

Time to stop hating on Sakura, she just canonically blitzed and punched the most powerful entity in the verse straight in the fucking skull- and she did it by moving faster than Sasuke and Naruto. If she had both seals on her hands Kaguya would have been sealed by the pink beast.


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## Bonly (Aug 23, 2014)

**


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## OG Appachai (Aug 23, 2014)

Real talk, sakura stands no chance all jokes aside shes getting ridiculous over estimation in the BD


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 23, 2014)

Ugh, all this nonsensical wank because of a forced relevance panel that doesn't ven logically fit using power-scaling. Its laughable really.

On topic though, Sakura gets murdered with low difficulty


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## Euraj (Aug 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So basically don't bring up the manga cannon to you because you can't handle reality. But to bad i'm doing it anyway:
> 
> saku: tsunade-sama… it seems that… I was finally able to catch up with the two of them!!\\
> 
> ...


There's no way possible she has the same combat ability as KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Could she be as skilled or useful as them? Maybe, but in combat, they'd both thrash her to pieces. For example, that girl has nothing on Susano-O and Enton: Kagutsuchi, but Sasuke can't heal mass numbers of people at the same time. (Naruto is arguably better than both since he can use his powers in a supplementary way and has firepower like Sasuke concurrently)



			
				DaVizWiz said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sakura can probably propel herself faster than she is given credit for, but she is by no means as quick as Sasuke and Naruto. She might have actually been moving faster than the two of them, but at the same time, there isn't an indication that the two of them were going at their own max speed. 

And I think it goes without saying that this fight so far with Kaguya has made no sense at all. Given the powers she has, Kakashi's strategy should have failed horribly, but somehow the person with the most chakra an visual prowess in the manga can't see someone jumping toward her and doesn't use her large AoE attacks at the most convenient times to use them.


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## Rocky (Aug 23, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Time to stop hating on Sakura, she just canonically blitzed and punched the most powerful entity in the verse straight in the fucking skull- and she did it by moving faster than Sasuke and Naruto. If she had both seals on her hands Kaguya would have been sealed by the pink beast.



Sakura was flat out trashed by Jūbidara up close, but she possesses the speed to blitz Super Kaguya?


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## Megu-Nee (Aug 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sakura was flat out trashed by Jūbidara up close, but she possesses the speed to blitz Super Kaguya?



Deal with it


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## Trojan (Aug 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sakura was flat out trashed by Jūbidara up close, but she possesses the speed to blitz Super Kaguya?



Minato got hit by Madara, who got trashed by Guy, even though Minato is faster than Guy.

Kishi for you. 

Also, Sakura was fast enough to dodge the Rabbit's tail for a moment I guess, and according to
Naruto it was so fast or something.


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 23, 2014)

What's with this blitzing stuff...Sakura did no such thing

Intercepting someones linear motion that was preoccupied with others is nothing special. Hence "the plan"


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## Ruse (Aug 23, 2014)

Always thought Sakura was overrated but damn this is next level. 

OT: Kabuto wrecks Sakura, his skill set provides him a variety of ways to dominate this match up.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 23, 2014)

> Sakura can probably propel herself faster than she is given credit for, but she is by no means as quick as Sasuke and Naruto. She might have actually been moving faster than the two of them, but at the same time, there isn't an indication that the two of them were going at their own max speed.


To suggest they weren't is folly, they were as close as they've ever been in sealing her. Kakashi ripped through her defenses and tore her shoulder apart, giving them an opening to seal her. 

Why are people degrading the feat just because it's Sakura who did it? 

Regardless of whether or not they were moving at top speed- Kaguya certainly wasn't fucking around. She critically analyzed her next move when they were less than a foot from her body so she was dead serious. A dead serious, Byakugan-activated Kaguya was blindside blitzed and drop-punched in the skull by Sakura.

Sakura isn't a chump anymore. She took a giant shit on Kaguya's head. 



> And I think it goes without saying that this fight so far with Kaguya has made no sense at all. Given the powers she has, Kakashi's strategy should have failed horribly, but somehow the person with the most chakra an visual prowess in the manga can't see someone jumping toward her and doesn't use her large AoE attacks at the most convenient times to use them.


It doesn't matter if it's made sense, it happened on panel.

If Kishimoto wants to give Sakura a power boost- she will get the power boost. Regardless of how you or anyone on here feels about it- Sakura just climbed up the tier ladder in a single chapter.

I don't give a darn, and Kishimoto definitely doesn't give a darn how any of you feel about it. You will NOT, however, deny his clear-cut manga feats and new portrayal of Sakura's power scale. That shit definitely won't fly. 



> What's with this blitzing stuff...Sakura did no such thing
> 
> Intercepting someones linear motion that was preoccupied with others is nothing special. Hence "the plan"


I'm sorry, Sakura reading her movement and jumping to move her body, than her arm fast enough to tag Kaguya's head from 10 feet away before flying Rikudo Naruto + Teleporting Rinnegan Sasuke could touch her from less than 1/2 foot away isn't considered a blitz?

Interesting logic. 

Provide your definition of "blitz" and then we'll critically analyze whether or not Sakura, moving her body toward Kaguya and full-extension clobbering her in the skull without a reaction was a blitz or not.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 24, 2014)

this isn't even apologetics anymore, its just creepysadpathetic rhetoric.

Kabuto obviously wins


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## Ashi (Aug 24, 2014)

Tayuya flute GG


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2014)

Nice Joke. You might want to restrict Kabuto to base and Sakura'd still lose.



Hussain said:


> Minato got hit by Madara, who got trashed by Guy, even though Minato is faster than Guy.



What ? 

Gai'd run 60 laps around Miinato and kick his head off Before Minato could form a coherent thought.


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## Mercurial (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So basically don't bring up the manga cannon to you because you can't handle reality. But to bad i'm doing it anyway:
> 
> saku: tsunade-sama? it seems that? I was finally able to catch up with the two of them!!\\
> 
> ...



Sakura said that herself in her mind. It doesn't mean anything. Sakura said that she would have stopped Gaara, she would have stopped Itachi to harm Naruto and Sasuke, she would have killed Sasuke. No one else said that. Feats totally say a giant no.


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## Veo (Aug 24, 2014)

All my money for Kabuto, zero difficulty.


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## RedChidori (Aug 24, 2014)

Veo said:


> All my money for Kabuto, zero difficulty.



You sir have won the internet !


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So basically don't bring up the manga cannon to you because you can't handle reality. But to bad i'm doing it anyway:
> 
> saku: tsunade-sama… it seems that… I was finally able to catch up with the two of them!!\\
> 
> ...



No one is retarded enough to believe that Sakura is anywhere near the same level as Naruto and Sasuke right now.

*No one.*


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sakura said that herself in her mind. It doesn't mean anything. Sakura said that she would have stopped Gaara, she would have stopped Itachi to harm Naruto and Sasuke, she would have killed Sasuke. No one else said that. Feats totally say a giant no.



So the interpretation is that she's lying to herself, despite just witnessing at least Naruto's power. Please... the entire chapter was about Sakura catching up to those 2. 

As for feats, your simply underrating Sakura's feats.



Nikushimi said:


> No one is retarded enough to believe that Sakura is anywhere near the same level as Naruto and Sasuke right now.
> 
> *No one.*


Except Kishimoto, but who cares what the author thinks lol.


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## Jad (Aug 24, 2014)

I read that sentence as if she caught up to being able to fight side by side with them, without getting in their way (although this was shut down quite quickly with it being just false).


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Except Kishimoto, but who cares what the author thinks lol.



Kishimoto doesn't think that. No one thinks that.

All of the replies to this match so far have been this:



Sakura can say she has caught up to Naruto and Sasuke until she is blue in the face, but no one (except you, apparently) is gullible enough to believe she is actually their equal until she puts her money where her mouth is.

She's the only one out of the trio to not receive any kind of power-up since the war started--not even from Hagoromo. It's going to require a pretty enormous asspull to get her on that level, but right now...she definitely isn't there. The jury's still out on whether or not she surpassed Tsunade.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

Jad said:


> I read that sentence as if she caught up to being able to fight side by side with them, without getting in their way (although this was shut down quite quickly with it being just false).



I think that's how every rational person interpreted it.

That, and "LolKishi."


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## RedChidori (Aug 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kishimoto doesn't think that. No one thinks that.
> 
> All of the replies to this match so far have been this:
> 
> ...



THANK YOU NIKU! *Goddamn! I mean SERIOUSLY, why the hell is everybody wanking Sakura lately?* Cuz she managed to land a hit on Kaguya? Naruto did that shit to . And the "speed feats" are ludicrous; the only reason Suckura was coming so fast at Kaguya was because she was _falling down from the sky above and gravity was pulling her down._ Simple as that. Mothafuckas taking shit _*waaaayyyyyyy out of context.*_


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> the only reason Suckura was coming so fast at Kaguya was because she was _falling down from the sky above and gravity was pulling her down._ Simple as that.




Uhhh...actually, the speed of free-fall is nothing impressive compared to how fast these characters can move normally. 

Sasuke dodged a supersonic air current back during the Chuunin Exams. Thinking about how far we've come since then...free-fall speed seems like barely moving at all. It's almost surprising that Kaguya didn't have time to go grab breakfast at McDonald's, come back, and finish eating before Sakura reached her.


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## Ashi (Aug 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Uhhh...actually, the speed of free-fall is nothing impressive compared to how fast these characters can move normally.
> 
> Sasuke dodged a supersonic air current back during the Chuunin Exams. Thinking about how far we've come since then...free-fall speed seems like barely moving at all. It's almost surprising that Kaguya didn't have time to go grab breakfast at McDonald's, come back, and finish eating before Sakura reached her.



That's why Sasuke needed a teleportation jutsu to reach a portal right infront of him


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## RedChidori (Aug 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Uhhh...actually, the speed of free-fall is nothing impressive compared to how fast these characters can move normally.
> 
> Sasuke dodged a supersonic air current back during the Chuunin Exams. Thinking about how far we've come since then...free-fall speed seems like barely moving at all. It's almost surprising that Kaguya didn't have time to go grab breakfast at McDonald's, come back, and finish eating before Sakura reached her.



Lol yeah I know right. I don't where this "Sakura caught up to Naruto and Sasuke" crap is coming from.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

It's coming from Turrin taking one unsupported statement by Sakura and blowing it way out of proportion, under the misguided belief that he is heeding the will of the author.


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## RedChidori (Aug 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> It's coming from Turrin taking one unsupported statement by Sakura and blowing it way out of proportion, under the misguided belief that he is heeding the will of the author.



Where on Earth does Turrin conjure up these delusional illogical fallacies from ?


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 24, 2014)

Blame Kishit for trying too hard to make Sakura useful. 

I wonder what's she doing in the Jubito and Jubidara fight if she's so powerful all this time, well maybe she inherits the Willpower of Tsunade after MT?


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kishimoto doesn't think that. No one thinks that.


If Kishi didn't think that he would not have had Sakura say that. This is not a hard concept to comprehend.



> All of the replies to this match so far have been this:


I only care about what Kishimoto thinks, not what a some BD members believe because they over value certain skills while under valuing others. Those BD members can keep posting gifs all they want, and i'll just laugh it up as Sakura continues to prove useful in combat against the sentient god of the Naruto world and continues demonstrating a nigh in exhaustible chakra supply



> Sakura can say she has caught up to Naruto and Sasuke until she is blue in the face, but no one (except you, apparently) is gullible enough to believe she is actually their equal until she puts her money where her mouth is.


Kishimoto is writing a story, he does not have characters lie for no reason.



> She's the only one out of the trio to not receive any kind of power-up since the war started--not even from Hagoromo. It's going to require a pretty enormous asspull to get her on that level, but right now...she definitely isn't there. The jury's still out on whether or not she surpassed Tsunade.


I guess you just didn't read Ch 632 



Legendary Itachi said:


> I wonder what's she doing in the Jubito and Jubidara fight if she's so powerful all this time, well maybe she inherits the Willpower of Tsunade after MT?


Protecting thousands of alliance members from their god-scale attacks and saving Naruto's life with her infinite chakra supply


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 24, 2014)

Infinite supply doesn't let her summon a more useful 50% Katsuyu, even with Kyubi's shroud. There must be some power of Will from Tsunade to let her come so far.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> . Please... the entire chapter was about* Sakura catching up to those 2. *







RedChidori said:


> Where on Earth does Turrin conjure up these delusional illogical fallacies from ?



From the 6th dimension, aka the horseshit dimension.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If Kishi didn't think that he would not have had Sakura say that. This is not a hard concept to comprehend.



What Sakura said, what you think she meant, and what is actually the case, aren't necessarily all the same thing, Turrin.



> I only care about what Kishimoto thinks, not what a some BD members believe because they over value certain skills while under valuing others. Those BD members can keep posting gifs all they want, and i'll just laugh it up as Sakura continues to prove useful in combat against the sentient god of the Naruto world and continues demonstrating a nigh in exhaustible chakra supply



We'll keep laughing too, Turrin. We'll keep laughing too.



> Kishimoto is writing a story, he does not have characters lie for no reason.



It's not a lie; however, it doesn't mean Sakura is anywhere near as strong as Naruto and Sasuke, either.



> I guess you just didn't read Ch 632



To be perfectly honest, I don't remember anything that took place since Obito absorbed the Juubi; the story hasn't really been making a lot of sense.

It's possible I missed Hagoromo or Itachi using divine sorcery to make Sakura into a God.


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> What Sakura said, what you think she meant, and what is actually the case, aren't necessarily all the same thing, Turrin.


What Sakura said isn't some zen riddle that is open to interpretation. It's point blank and obvious.



> We'll keep laughing too, Turrin. We'll keep laughing too.


Nope at a certain point you'll stop laughing and start hypocritically overrating the character, just like every other time I defend a character on these forums. Happened with Itachi, Happened with Minato, Happened with Gai, and so on. It's a never ending cycle because no one learns their lesson on these forums



> It's not a lie; however, it doesn't mean Sakura is anywhere near as strong as Naruto and Sasuke, either.


Again not a Zen riddle, that is hard to understand



> To be perfectly honest, I don't remember anything that took place since Obito absorbed the Juubi; the story hasn't really been making a lot of sense.
> 
> It's possible I missed Hagoromo or Itachi using divine sorcery to make Sakura into a God.


It wasn't Hagoromo and it wasn't Itachi, it was Kishi, but yeah you would seriously benefit from reading the actual manga instead of just the chapters Itachi appears in.


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## The World (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So basically don't bring up the manga cannon to you because you can't handle reality. But to bad i'm doing it anyway:
> 
> saku: tsunade-sama… it seems that… I was finally able to catch up with the two of them!!\\
> 
> ...





DaVizWiz said:


> Blitzing past Byakugan + Juubi sensing; Reacting to Kaguya's Chakra Arm > Anything Kabuto has ever done
> 
> Feats dictate she trashes him, she'll do more than the BD will actually consider her a serious combatant.
> 
> ...







Sakura tries to punch Kabuto? He just disperses


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## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No she didn't say that. She thought back to when she said that and had the feeling of having caught up to them. She wanted to catch them again so she tried her hand at Madara, but failed. The scene was there to show that Naruto and Sasuke had once again surpassed her by a large margin.



Kishi was not portraying that Sakura was equal to EMS Sauce or KCM Naruto. The whole scene was to show that Sakura improved in her craft well enough to not be a nuisance to them anymore, and finally is able to help them out and " not stare at their backs". That in no way means she is equal to them in power, or symbolically portrayed. Sakura's whole character is wrapped around the idea of going from being useless to being somewhat useful. 

Sage Kabuto* rapes* Sakura.


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kishi was not portraying that Sakura was equal to EMS Sauce or KCM Naruto. The whole scene was to show that Sakura improved in her craft well enough to not be a nuisance to them anymore, and finally is able to help them out and " not stare at their backs". That in no way means she is equal to them in power, or symbolically portrayed. Sakura's whole character is wrapped around the idea of going from being useless to being somewhat useful.
> 
> Sage Kabuto* rapes* Sakura.


Your interpretation would be perfectly rational if Sakura had not said she caught up to them. The fact that Kishi put that statement in there and for someone like Kishi who has shown a great deal of ambiguity with statements before, to put it in such a point blank manor, completely debunks this idea. There is no room for the level of interpretation that people wish to advocate for in that statement. Could Sakura be weaker than them by a bit, sure, but she couldn't be several levels weaker than them with that statement in play. And heck even talking about feats someone that is several levels weaker than KCM-Naruto and EMS-Sasuke would not have been capable of being useful against Kaguya anyway, For example Sharinganless Kakashi would perform better against Hebi-Sasuke than people are advocating Sakura would, and he was as well as directly deemed himself completely useless against Kaguya until he received an absolutely insane power boost.. To give one example of why the logic employed by many members her is so far removed from what Kishimoto is actually showing in the manga cannon.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 24, 2014)

Kabuto is a bad match up for her. Tayuya's Genjutsu paralyzes and he can use his scalpel to cut her head off. The same happens with White Rage.

She cannot even catch him thanks to his Sage sensing abilities and his speed.

Turrin, Sakura thinking that to herself, doesn't mean its true. Deidara also said he'd kill Orochimaru and Itachi, and it doesn't mean thats true. He was weaker than Sasuke. Once you accept that, it will all make sense. All Sakura gained was more chakra. That puts her at Tsunade's level, since Tsunade can do that too. Just use logic bro...


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> .
> Turrin, Sakura thinking that to herself, doesn't mean its true. Deidara also said he'd kill Orochimaru and Itachi, and it doesn't mean thats true. He was weaker than Sasuke. Once you accept that, it will all make sense. All Sakura gained was more chakra. That puts her at Tsunade's level, since Tsunade can do that too. Just use logic bro...


Here's the differences. 

1) Deidara is characterized as someone who overestimates himself (typical villain stuff), Sakura has not been
2) Sasuke aside, Sakura had just witnessed Naruto's power first hand during the Juubi battle, and while it's possible she was underrating him a bit, she still saw enough where she could not be underrating him to the extent that would be necessary to justify the assertions people are making about Sakura's strength, where she is vastly weaker than two or even three incarnations of Naruto prior to BM.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What ?
> 
> Gai'd run 60 laps around Miinato and kick his head off Before Minato could form a coherent thought.



We all know this is utter BS. 
because the manga disagree.  

Link removed
Guy can't touch Minato, end of discussion.


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## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> We all know this is utter BS.
> because the manga disagree.
> 
> Link removed
> Guy can't touch Minato, end of discussion.



How can Minato deal with Yagai?


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here's the differences.
> 
> 1) Deidara is characterized as someone who overestimates himself (typical villain stuff), Sakura has not been
> 2) Sasuke aside, Sakura had just witnessed Naruto's power first hand during the Juubi battle, and while it's possible she was underrating him a bit, she still saw enough where she could not be underrating him to the extent that would be necessary to justify the assertions people are making about Sakura's strength, where she is vastly weaker than two or even three incarnations of Naruto prior to BM.



Sakura hadn't witnessed Naruto's KCM shushin, which is one of Naruto's best abilities considering she has great power like him (I'm sure she can match him in that), but what she does lack is speed, so her not seeing that, to me, is a *BIG* difference.

She never saw Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo, and again, that is a *huge* difference.

Her assesment of the situation is nothing more than Deidara thinking that and then getting beat by Sasuke, or Sasuke thinking he could casually beat Bee because he's an Uchiha and has MS, and then getting his ass handed to him.

People in the manga have made wrong assumptions from the start. I could name more examples and never finish. For example, Zabuza thought he could beat Kakashi, and got beat atleast 3/4 times. 

Kakuzu thought Naruto was a pushover.

Hidan thought there was no way Shikamaru could beat him, etc etc etc.

Sakura didn't have all the information about them. And she was probably over-rating herself and under-rating them if she thought she was as good as them.

I mean, she did saw Amaterasu/Enton, yet she really has no counter to that. I mean, later we *saw * her getting owned by some random lava. She doesn't have a high level substitution jutsu, she doesn't have the speed to dodge it, nor can she heal forever. 

And she hasn't shown to be able to survive getting her head cut off, while Sasuke has perfect protection from her, with PS.

I mean, it apparently seems Sakura later realized she was talking shit, because not much later, she allowed them to proceed to fight the Juubi and she stayed healing people. And the same happened againts Juubito.

Which kinda means, yes, she is as good as them, but not battle-wise. I mean, yes, she is useful now, because, healing people is useful, and under the right circumstances, when an opponent is delivered to her like Kayuya was, where all she had to do was punch, and not use any speed/tactic/do anything else, then yes, she's useful. 

She's not so weak that she was to watch their back like before, because she was able to actually help againts those mini-Juubi, but once things got worst, she did watch their backs for all of it, except now, where when circumstances were right, she capitalized

But saying she's KCM Naruto level is pushing it.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> How can Minato deal with *Yagai*?



What is that?


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## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> What is that?



Basically Night Gai in japanese


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Basically Night Gai in japanese



Never said Minato can deal with 8th Gate Guy. 
I'm talking about the speed by itself, which Minato is faster than him proven in the manga.

whether people like it or not, it does not mean jack shit. Canon > their fodder opinion.


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## Rocky (Aug 24, 2014)

Minato's teleportation is faster than Gai, and Superman, and The Flash, and everything else because it's instantaneous. 

Minato's body speed and reactions are far below Gai, though.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Minato's teleportation is faster than Gai, and Superman, and The Flash, and everything else because it's instantaneous.
> 
> Minato's body speed and reactions are far below Gai, though.


I wouldn't say far, that's a bit of a stretch.

Gai's reaction speed isn't the best in the verse, the dude is all offense in the 8th Gate, and Judara casually slashed him down in the 7th Gate. If Minato hadn't warped away the truth seekers 8th Gated Gai would have been killed by Judara before he even managed to put a fist on his body. 

Whenever you're deemed the fastest ninja of your time- you will never be "far below" anyone in speed. That is an elite class that no one will ever be "far faster" than. 

Far below to me means the other guy is at least two times your speed- 8th Gated Gai would be defeated by Minato with 2x his own speed in all possible conceptions of speed.

No one in the verse is 2x the speed of 
1. Minato
2. 3rd Raikage
3. Tobirama
or
4. Naruto 

Therefore, no one is "far faster" than any of them IMO. The four of them were the fastest ninja in the world at one point, Naruto is currently the fastest and will stay the fastest until the manga's resolution.


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Sakura hadn't witnessed Naruto's KCM shushin, which is one of Naruto's best abilities considering she has great power like him (I'm sure she can match him in that), but what she does lack is speed, so her not seeing that, to me, is a *BIG* difference.


No one has seen KCM-Naruto successfully pull off an offensive Shunshin, because it's never happened in the manga cannon. But she witnessed BM-Naruto's Shunshin and high speed movement in ch 616.



> She never saw Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo, and again, that is a huge difference.


I said Naruto.



> Her assesment of the situation is nothing more than Deidara thinking that and then getting beat by Sasuke, or Sasuke thinking he could casually beat Bee because he's an Uchiha and has MS, and then getting his ass handed to him.


I already out lined why these are not comparable situations. Re-read my previous post.



> People in the manga have made wrong assumptions from the start. I could name more examples and never finish. For example, Zabuza thought he could beat Kakashi, and got beat atleast 3/4 times.


Your examples are all villains. Villains are often incorrect about their power. 

Nevertheless, Zabuza knew vastly less about Kakashi than Sakura knew about Naruto. And even still Kakashi was not multiple levels beyond Zabuza in strength. In-fact Zabuza was quite a worth opponent for Kakashi at that time



> Kakuzu thought Naruto was a pushove


Once again. We have a scenario where it's a villain and said villain has less knowledge of Naruto than Sakura had, and said villain was not multiple levels bellow the character in question. 



> idan thought there was no way Shikamaru could beat him, etc etc etc.


Once again. We have a scenario where it's a villain and said villain has less knowledge of Naruto than Sakura had, and said villain was not multiple levels bellow the character in question. 



> Sakura didn't have all the information about them. And she was probably over-rating herself and under-rating them if she thought she was as good as them.


It's literally not possible for Sakura to be as wrong as people are suggesting given her knowledge of Naruto at that point.



> I mean, she did saw Amaterasu/Enton, yet she really has no counter to that. I mean, later we saw her getting owned by some random lava. She doesn't have a high level substitution jutsu, she doesn't have the speed to dodge it, nor can she heal forever.


When did she get owned by Lava? Do you mean when Kaguya shifted the dimension? If so that's God-level stuff that makes Enton/Amaterasu look like a Joke in comparison.



> And she hasn't shown to be able to survive getting her head cut off, while Sasuke has perfect protection from her, with PS.


This is just the way you view the feats. I don't think Sasuke's P-Susano'o is stronger than Kaguya. I do not think beheading is killing Sakura anymore than bisection killed Tsunade. 

Not that EMS-Sasuke has even shown the ability to use P-Susano'o for long, and it's taking it for granted that Sakura will have her head chopped off.



> I mean, it apparently seems Sakura later realized she was talking shit, because not much later, she allowed them to proceed to fight the Juubi and she stayed healing people. And the same happened againts Juubito.


She was effective alongside Naruto and Sasuke against Kaguya. 



> Which kinda means, yes, she is as good as them, but not battle-wise. I mean, yes, she is useful now, because, healing people is useful, and under the right circumstances, when an opponent is delivered to her like Kayuya was, where all she had to do was punch, and not use any speed/tactic/do anything else, then yes, she's useful.


The problem is Kishi always put it within the context of battle wise. Ch 632 was all about her combat prowess, to name one example.



> She's not so weak that she was to watch their back like before, because she was able to actually help againts those mini-Juubi, but once things got worst, she did watch their backs for all of it, except now, where when circumstances were right, she capitalized


It seems to me that your writing off the Kaguya example, when that completely invalidates the rest of your sentiment. She was just now helpful against Kaguya combat wise. That should tell you her power boost was not just about support. 

And quite honestly Hebi-Sasuke/Wind-Arc Naruto and I even doubt MS-Sasuke/SM-Naruto would have been as helpful.



> But saying she's KCM Naruto level is pushing it.


I think you have it wrong. My personal opinion is that Sakura is BM-Naruto level, though I can understand the view point that she is KCM-Naruto level. Anything far bellow that, is completely going against cannon imo.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I will hold it until something is shown or stated to the contrary. . And no BM-Naruto having better feats, because he has had infinitely more panel time than Sakura as the MC, is not an argument I accept as credible. So far i haven't seen anything, other than Sakura being extremely useful against the sentient god Kaguya, which I doubt we'd see someone inferior to BM-Naruto being as useful against


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## Rocky (Aug 24, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Far below to me means the other guy is at least two times your speed- 8th Gated Gai would be blitzed by Minato inflated with double his own base speed, as would anyone else in the verse.



I dunno.

Minato powered up to Sage Mode, but Madara reacted to him appearing out of nowhere and cut his arm off.

8th Gate Gai beat the shit out of that Madara. He got steamrolled in terms of strength and speed.

The KCM Shroud multiplies speed by more then 2, so do you believe KCM Minato would speed blitz 8th Gate Gai?


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## Rocky (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:
			
		

> So far i haven't seen anything, other than Sakura being extremely useful against the sentient god Kaguya, which I doubt we'd see someone inferior to BM-Naruto being as useful against



That was in a team setting, though. The lowly Rock Lee proved exceptionally useful against Godly Madara, but alone he would have been neg-diffed. 

I don't think accurate estimates of combat level can be drawn in team settings. Sakura was a hindrance to Naruto & Sasuke many times before she actually managed to help.

As for who would be useful against Kaguya, Tsunade would have done just as well in Sakura's position there, and she isn't even close to BM Naruto's level.


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## Turrin (Aug 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That was in a team setting, though. The lowly Rock Lee proved exceptionally useful against Godly Madara, but alone he would have been neg-diffed.
> .


Yes it's in a team setting. If it wasn't in a team setting than Sakura would have to be at least Godruto "level". Something i'm not advocating for in the slightest. 

As for the Rock-Lee example it's not a terrible comparison, but clearly not perfect one ether. Rock-Lee was up against a vastly inferior enemy to Kaguya and was enhanced by the Kyuubi-Cloak.  Plus Kyuubi-Cloak-Gated (probably 6th-Gate) Lee is nothing to fuck with to begin with, he'd tear apart most characters given his Gated Displays and the massive enhancement Kyuubi-Cloak had on anyone who received it. KCG (Kyuubi-Chakra-Gated) Lee is extremely powerful.

On the flip side of this we have Sakura being useful against a vastly more powerful villain, on the merits of her own power.



> I don't think accurate estimates of combat level can be drawn in team settings.


Estimates can be drawn just fine. Like I said before Kakashi (before Obito-Power up) felt totally useless against Kaguya. Additionally Kishi is not going to have someone who is as weak as the forum supposes be useful in a battle at this level. You can go back and look at other team battles, and you'll be hard pressed to find one where a team-member is as useful as Sakura has been, but is not just a few levels bellow their teammates, but many. And i'm not just talking about being useful in the sense that they bring a food pill along, use Shosen, or provided some support, but actually beat down the main adversary with one of their blows setting up their teammates to finish him/her. Basically their combat ability being clutch to defeating the enemy.

For example if you say Sakura would loose to Hebi-Sasuke, that means she's  4 power ups behind where Sasuke is right now; Godsuke --> EMS ---> MS ---> Hebi 

And that is not accounting for the inbetween steps, such as when MS-Sasuke (Danzo-Fight) vs MS-Sasuke (Ei Fight) vs MS Sasuke (Killer B Fight). Or EMS-Sasuke (Juubibuto Fight) vs EMS-Sasuke (Kabuto Fight) . 

Same thing with Naruto, but worse: Godruto ---> BSM ---> BM ---> KCM ---> SM



> Sakura was a hindrance to Naruto & Sasuke many times before she actually managed to help.


When was Sakura a hinderance? Do you mean they had to save her? Because okay, she also saved Sasuke and earlier saved Naruto. So all of them have been saving each other.



> As for who would be useful against Kaguya, Tsunade would have done just as well in Sakura's position there, and she isn't even close to BM Naruto's level.


I seriously doubt that. 

- Tsunade has not shown the striking power to over power Kaguya and break her horn clean off.
- Tsunade has not shown the speed to combo efficiently with Sasuke and Naruto, and hit Kaguya in that split instance, before she can react (distracted or otherwise)
- Tsunade has not shown the chakra reserves to have done everything Sakura did in the war, and still be in the condition to fight Kaguya

It's all well and good to say Tsunade also has super-human strength so she could stand in for Sakura, but that doesn't account for the finer details and undermines how good Sakura's feat really was. 

I seriously doubt Kishi would have Tsunade be capable of the same thing, though if she could stand in Tsunade would also deserve to be rated much higher than she currently is in the NBD, as the biggest issues with Tsunade in most matches is A) Her Speed and B) Her opponent making her run out of Byakugo chakra. With a secondary notes on C) How much of Katsuya she can really summon w/o tiring and D)How effective her striking force would be against higher end defenses.


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2014)

Rock Lee was in base when he kicked Madara with the Kyuubi shroud. Not hard to see that he has pupils in that scan. Gate usage means loss of pupils.


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## Hachibi (Aug 25, 2014)

>Sakura being BM Naruto level.

................................................................

I'm need to go out for a moment.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> We all know this is utter BS.
> because the manga disagree.
> 
> deemed chunin-lvl by Hayate
> Guy can't touch Minato, end of discussion.





Thats an interception feat.

A character needs to react to another character in a direct combat situation for us to be able to make an assessment of their speeds relative to each other. 

Like for example, how Minato couldn't react to Madara and how Madara couldn't react to Gai.


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## Turrin (Aug 25, 2014)

Jad said:


> Rock Lee was in base when he kicked Madara with the Kyuubi shroud. Not hard to see that he has pupils in that scan. Gate usage means loss of pupils.


I see pupils just fine when Lee's in Gated form:
deemed chunin-lvl by Hayate
deemed chunin-lvl by Hayate

I don't see any pupils when Lee kicks Madara anyway though:
​
Additionally we know Lee was using Gates when he kicked Madara, because he takes on the super-saiyan gated hair style.

He also takes the typical gate releasing pose right before then:
deemed chunin-lvl by Hayate


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 25, 2014)

I assumed that Sakura attacked Kaguya from the Byakugan's blindspot, which judging from where she _threw her punch_, makes sense. [1] That was more than likely part of the plan Kakashi devised in order to seal her. 

Kaguya is still a sensor though, but if other sensors like Minato or Karin are anything worth going off, then they need to be actively using their sensory abilities to detect others. It is possible that Kaguya wasn't trying to sense since what she thought were her only concerns - Naruto and Sasuke, were right beside her and within sight. 

Regardless, Sakura does not possess the speed necessary to blitz the God of the Narutoverse, ever. She did dodge Kaguya's chakra arm briefly though, so that was a very impressive speed feat given that she doesn't have any speed boosts like Naruto and Sasuke do. 

Even so, SM Kabuto outright blitzed Itachi iirc, giving Sakura very little chance of being able to keep up with him for any notable period of time. She can't kill Kabuto with physical strikes either, since he can liquefy his body and reform afterwards. Her only chance of victory is to rely on 10% Katsuyu, who is a good counter to all of Kabuto's techniques. For instance, Katsuyu could break Sakura out of Tayuya's _Mugen Onsa_ via the partner method. Katsuyu should also (in theory) be immune to the effects of his _Senpō: Hakugeki no Jutsu_ by virtue of her inability to see significant amounts of light, and immunity to intense vibrations, allowing her to protect Sakura throughout the technique's duration. 

The _Sawarabi no Mai_ isn't a threat to Sakura, who can punch right through the bones or plainly dodge them. Furthermore, her regeneration means she can avoid dying through conventional means, making Kabuto's chakra scalpels and snake jutsu mostly ineffective. Katsuyu can reattach whatever body parts are lost too, while other Katsuyu clones defend her.

Basically, Kabuto will be hard pressed to kill Sakura, but he does have options. Manda II can keep Katsuyu occupied so that Kabuto can kill Sakura without her slug being able to protect her.

Kabuto would therefore win, but seeing as how Kabuto may not bring Manda II out straight away, it may take a little while.​​


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2014)

_Senpō: Hakugeki no Jutsu_

Zoom in. Pupils. Hair standing up? 
You mean Lee moving making his hair move....

There is no proof Lee used gates. You're making it up to satisfy your arguement.


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats an interception feat.
> 
> A character needs to react to another character in a direct combat situation for us to be able to make an assessment of their speeds relative to each other.
> 
> Like for example, how Minato couldn't react to Madara and how Madara couldn't react to Gai.



Don't waste your time. I've tried to explain but he doesnt understand speed feats vs interception feats let alone ones involving FTG

I mean he thinks Minato is faster then 8-Gated guy lol


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## SSMG (Aug 25, 2014)

Lee was in base when he recieved the kyuubi cloak and was never shown going into gates before the madara kick.. jad is right.


As for the topic sakura gets beat everytime. she cant hurt kabuto let alone kill while he has many means of winning.


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## Kai (Aug 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Your interpretation would be perfectly rational if Sakura had not said she caught up to them. The fact that Kishi put that statement in there and for someone like Kishi who has shown a great deal of ambiguity with statements before, to put it in such a point blank manor, completely debunks this idea. There is no room for the level of interpretation that people wish to advocate for in that statement. Could Sakura be weaker than them by a bit, sure, but she couldn't be several levels weaker than them with that statement in play. And heck even talking about feats someone that is several levels weaker than KCM-Naruto and EMS-Sasuke would not have been capable of being useful against Kaguya anyway, For example Sharinganless Kakashi would perform better against Hebi-Sasuke than people are advocating Sakura would, and he was as well as directly deemed himself completely useless against Kaguya until he received an absolutely insane power boost.. To give one example of why the logic employed by many members her is so far removed from what Kishimoto is actually showing in the manga cannon.


So are we to value Sakura as legitimate competition for the Hokage title, on the same level as Sasuke and Naruto?


> sasu: don’t slow us down, naruto\\
> *saku: he is right! If you trifle on such little things I will take the seat of hokage in front of your eyes!\\
> naru: eh~~~! Even you have that objective, sakura-chan!?\\*
> saku: this time let’s fight by watching each tower’s backs!!\\
> ...



Also, we are to consider counters to Sakura's abilities, regardless of her level. Kabuto has one of the most diverse collection of abilities and traits in a single vessel. Is physical strength and Katsuyu _always_ going to win against any ability belonging to anyone inferior in level? Or are you simply arguing Sakura's portrayal in the manga.


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## Turrin (Aug 25, 2014)

Kai said:


> So are we to value Sakura as legitimate competition for the Hokage title, on the same level as Sasuke and Naruto?


The statement your referring to is within the context of Naruto and Sasuke fighting, hence the " If you trifle on such little things", part. Basically the statement was saying that if Sasuke and Naruto continued fighting it may end up with Sakura being Hokage instead of them. And yeah that is a pretty likely outcome, just look at what happened with the original Sannin; also if Sasuke and Naruto fight again they both die, in which case Sakura probably would become the next Hokage. So the scene sets her up as competition, but only if the two continue to fight with each other.



> Also, we are to consider counters to Sakura's abilities, regardless of her level. Kabuto has one of the most diverse collection of abilities and traits in a single vessel. Is physical strength and Katsuyu always going to win against any ability belonging to anyone inferior in level? Or are you simply arguing Sakura's portrayal in the manga.


I said Kabuto would probably win because he's the perfect counter to Sakura in my original post. So I agree as far as their abilities presently stack up that Kabuto is well suited to the task of defeating her. But this must also be kept in perspective with the fact that Kabuto had an entire battle dedicated to him to accumulate feats, while Sakura has only had a couple of panels here and there to show off her combat skills since her power boost in ch 632.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Godaime the blind spot is tiny, which is why Kidomaru had to keep his arrow within that blindspot the whole time by guiding it. Sakura's punch itself could maybe fit in the blind-spot, but Kaguya would have still seen Sakura's body charging at her from above. Kaguya even has the panel with the exclamation mark which clearly indicates she's noticed Sakura above her:
> ​
> And Sakura is in the striking pose for a punch at that moment.
> 
> So Kaguya clearly knew Sakura was going to punch her, and could not react in time to do anything.



Or, Kaguya suspected that Kakashi and/or Sakura were up to something, but didn't know where/how.

Or else it was a complete asspull done in order to give Sakura some relevance in the fight. 

Think about it realistically, Sakura was shitting her pants at the sight of Kaguya floating in front of her just a while ago, she was also completely blitz'd by Madara not long ago too, so how the heck could she suddenly gain a massive increase in speed to the point that she can blitz a Narutoverse God?



> Sakura indeed blitz'd Kaguya in that instance.



If this is really what you believe, then I can't help you.



> With that said Sakura only managed to get that close to Kaguya due to Kakashi, Sasuke, and Naruto distracting Kaguya, up until the moment where Kaguya realizes Sakura is right above her, and Kaguya was in air where her flight speed is probably not as good as her foot speed. But even Kaguya being in a disadvantage position, Sakura still blitz'd her, and that is a god-dam impressive speed feat regardless (so is even being able to time a combo with Godruto and Gosuke for that matter)



Kaguya has a Byakugan and sensing, so unless she only reached Kaguya because of the reasons I already mentioned, her ' blitzing ' Kaguya would be complete bullshit. 



> And I disagree about Sakura not having an enhancement. I've always thought that Sakura and Tsunade apply the same basic mechanics of Okasho to increase their jumping speed, which is why their jumping speed feats are the most impressive speed feats they have. Though even if that is not the case, they certainly can use the channeling chakra to their appendages trick and they would certainly be the best at that in the verse, considering their chakra control



Chakra control = / = an enhancement. It's a base ability they use with their own skill, not like the Kyuubi, EMS, Rikudou chakra etc. which were power ups given to Naruto and Sasuke which they then mastered later on.​​


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## bleakwinter (Aug 25, 2014)

Sakura gets Yamcha'd


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## RedChidori (Aug 25, 2014)

bleakwinter said:


> Sakura gets Yamcha'd





You are epic for that bleakwinter :rofl :rofl :rofl! Take a +Rep, you deserve it !


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## Turrin (Aug 25, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Or, Kaguya suspected that Kakashi and/or Sakura were up to something, but didn't know where/how.​



That's not how the Byakugan works, and you know it.



> Or else it was a complete asspull done in order to give Sakura some relevance in the fight.


Really your going to fall back on, one of the, same excuse people have used for years to downplay Tsunade's speed-feats? Plus it's not like it matters whether it's an asspull or not. Sakura still has the speed feat and therefore in battle the author is willing to allow her that speed. That's all the matters when discussing how she'd perform against other characters, or how effective she'd be.



> Think about it realistically, Sakura was shitting her pants at the sight of Kaguya floating in front of her just a while ago,


Kaguya and Madara are still way stronger than her, so he being afraid of their strength (until she renewed her resolve) at first makes fine sense. 



> she was also completely blitz'd by Madara not long ago too, so how the heck could she suddenly gain a massive increase in speed to the point that she can blitz a Narutoverse God?


Her jumping speed could be higher than her foot speed, or her speed could be inconsistent for reasons I already brought up in my initial post. Additionally the circumstances for her charge against Madara were different than they were against Kaguya. Kaguya was in a disadvantage position



> If this is really what you believe, then I can't help you.


I really don't appreciate this attitude when this is literally what the manga showed. Even if you want to call it an asspull, that doesn't change what the manga showed. So please don't act like i'm the crazy one for stating what happened in the manga.



> Kaguya has a Byakugan and sensing, so unless she only reached Kaguya because of the reasons I already mentioned, her ' blitzing ' Kaguya would be complete bullshit.


Byakugan and Sensing just tell Kaguya where Sakura is. Which we see in the panel I posted that she realized Sakura was there and on the attack. However those things aren't going to enable her to evade, if she literally can't move out of the way in time. Which is exactly what the manga illustrates. As for it being an asspull, Sakura's entire Ch 632 power up was an asspull, that doesn't mean we can ignore that she is now that strong, anymore than we can ignore Godruto and Godsuke strength because they got contrived asspull power ups.

As for it not making sense, well when did we ever see the limit of Sakura's jumping-speed, that would create a contradiction with what we saw this chapter



> Chakra control = / = an enhancement. It's a base ability they use with their own skill, not like the Kyuubi, EMS, Rikudou chakra etc. which were power ups given to Naruto and Sasuke which they then mastered later on.


Channeling chakra to ones feet/legs does indeed result in an enhancement and it does indeed have to do with chakra control. Re-read the Wave-arc if you don't believe me.

Additionally, I personally think it's not that, but the fact that Sakura and Tsunade can use Okasho's mechanics to enhance their jumping speed. I.E building up chakra to the feet and than releasing it to purpell their jumps increasing their speed​


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## Hachibi (Aug 25, 2014)

Considering Sakura got blitzed by Kaguya not to long ago (manga time), it's a outlier.


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## Mercurial (Aug 25, 2014)

Sakura hit Kaguya only because the latter decided to let her it, because otherwise she would have been distracted by the dodging action, leaving herself open to Naruto and Sasuke. It was because of Kakashi's strategy to make Sakura attack from above from his Perfect Susanoo: if Kaguya didn't dodge, she would have been hit being open to Naruto and Sasuke; if she dodged, she would have been distracted and so open to Naruto and Sasuke. Add the fact that Kaguya had all reasons to think about Sakura as nothing more than an ant. It's like you are fighting with some powerful men, would you be afraid of a child that could enter the fight?


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## SSMG (Aug 25, 2014)

@Turrin.. that is not a picture of lee opening gates. People make that pose all the time without going gates. also for the hair he is falling so thats no proof either. 

If you want proof of someone opening gates i can show you.


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## Turrin (Aug 25, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Considering Sakura got blitzed by Kaguya not to long ago (manga time), it's a outlier.


It's not an outlier at all. Foot-Speed is different than flight-speed. Kaguya may be capable of very quick flight, but it's not a match for her foot-speed. That's all that is.



SSMG said:


> @Turrin.. that is not a picture of lee opening gates. People make that pose all the time without going gates. also for the hair he is falling so thats no proof either.
> 
> If you want proof of someone opening gates i can show you.



When did Lee take that pose other than when he used Gates. And no he was not still falling when he kicked Madara, yet his hair stays exactly like it does in Gates.


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## Rocky (Aug 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> On the flip side of this we have Sakura being useful against a vastly more powerful villain, on the merits of her own power.



Well, the power gap between the parties in question should still be close. Since Lee was using Naruto's power or whatever, we'll use Armless Minato instead

You think that nobody lesser than BM Naruto could be useful against Kaguya, but say Sakura is around Sage Mode Naruto and MS Sasuke. All three would be much stronger than Minato without arms, you agree?

So we have Minato being useful against Madara, and Sakura being useful against Kaguya, and even though Kaguya is much stronger than Madara, Sakura is much stronger than armless Minato. It relatively balances out.



> When was Sakura a hinderance? Do you mean they had to save her? Because okay, she also saved Sasuke and earlier saved Naruto. So all of them have been saving each other.



When did Sakura save Naruto or Sasuke in combat?



> - Tsunade has not shown the striking power to over power Kaguya and break her horn clean off.
> - Tsunade has not shown the speed to combo efficiently with Sasuke and Naruto, and hit Kaguya in that split instance, before she can react (distracted or otherwise)
> - Tsunade has not shown the chakra reserves to have done everything Sakura did in the war, and still be in the condition to fight Kaguya



Tsunade's striking force was deemed to be comparable to Sakura by Hashirama.

Furthermore, Sakura was in free fall against Kaguya, so speed shouldn't have been a factor in the feat.

Lastly, both Tsunade & Sakura's reserves are based on how much chakra they have stored up in their seals. If you take away the seal, obviously Tsunade is going to have more because of her lineage.


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## Hachibi (Aug 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's not an outlier at all. Foot-Speed is different than flight-speed. Kaguya may be capable of very quick flight, but it's not a match for her foot-speed. That's all that is.



Considering Sakura's feat was on the air, I don't know why you bring foot-speed.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No one has seen KCM-Naruto successfully pull off an offensive Shunshin, because it's never happened in the manga cannon. But she witnessed BM-Naruto's Shunshin and high speed movement in ch 616.


His shushin was successful againts Ei, what are you talking about? 





> Your examples are all villains. Villains are often incorrect about their power.


Naruto thought he could kill Pain, Pain would have finished him if Hinata/Kyuubi hadn't happened.

Naruto seemed confident on taking on Nagato, yet he got owned and was saved by Itachi.

Sasuke seemed confident on taking out Kabuto, he got owned and saved by Itachi twice.

Sasuke thought he could take on Bee, and was owned twice by him.

Sasuke thought he could take on Itachi, and Itachi held back the entire fight.

Basically almost everyone has thought they can take care of their opponent, so again, I don't know what you're talking about that only villains over-estimate their abilities.




> It's literally not possible for Sakura to be as wrong as people are suggesting given her knowledge of Naruto at that point.


So it's not possible that Sakura over-estimate her abilities, when numerous other people in the manga have done so?

Iruka stated Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage, and then Kishi stated Hashirama was. So why was Iruka wrong? He didn't have enough info on Hashirama.



> When did she get owned by Lava? Do you mean when Kaguya shifted the dimension? If so that's God-level stuff that makes Enton/Amaterasu look like a Joke in comparison.


That showed she's vulnerable to acid/lava, and it was outpacing her abilities, while you were basically stating how she can tank everything.



> This is just the way you view the feats. I don't think Sasuke's P-Susano'o is stronger than Kaguya. I do not think beheading is killing Sakura anymore than bisection killed Tsunade.


Then you are wrong. If cutting Sakura's head off doesn't kill Sakura, wtf does?

The brain is the person. You cannot live without a brain. You saying otherwise is bs, because neither Tsunade nor Sakura has had their heads cut off and lived to tell about it.

But again, what you're talking doesn't make any sense and its clear as day now.

You're grasping at straws here

And you're only argument is:

1. Sakura can survive having her head cut off (without any proof whatsoever. In other words... out of your....)

Well, guess what, Sasuke can incinerate her with Amaterasu/Enton, and his chakra supply allows him to be able to mantain Amaterasu/Enton how long he wants, shape it as long as he wants, or use it as many times as he wants. So Sakura isn't surviving Amaterasu/Enton combinations, which Sakura can even throw with his blade, which he can even do an Enton chidori eisou now, and she is even less surviving Perfect Susanoo.




> Not that EMS-Sasuke has even shown the ability to use P-Susano'o for long, and it's taking it for granted that Sakura will have her head chopped off.


Wtf is this bs?

Sasuke doesn't need to have it for long to cut her head off.

Hell, Sasuke doesn't need PS dude.

He can just throw an arrow through Sakura's brain, or incinerate her with his Amaterasu, which can be shot by his V4 Susanoo which can actually throw 13 Amaterasus at once.

With that kind of offense, Sakura AND Katsuyu is doomed no matter what twisted logic you use.

And it makes it that much easier to pull of Kirin.

Sasuke's firepower is on a completely different tier than Sakura's.

And it's only logical.

He *was always * a better genius than she was. He was the top of his class, while Sakura was the only one without an ability. He saved her multiple times. And by the end of Part 1, he was as far from her as the sky is from the earth. And we know why. He was the reincarnation of Indra, and a genius, while she was actually even below average in skill.

Now he got Itachi's powers added to his own, which only grew even more due to MS.

Rikudou's powers are just an extreme over kill that are not needed to defeat Sakura.



> She was effective alongside Naruto and Sasuke against Kaguya.


Because she didn't have to use any speed/skill to get to her, since she was put in perfect place for it.

So what did she proof?

That her punch is ridiculously powerful? Hooray for her, but guess what?

We already knew that.

I never said Sakura wouldn't kill anyone she punched. I argued, and still argue that what she has in physical strength, she lacks in speed, so she doesn't really catch much fast people, like KCM and BM Naruto are. AND she doesn't have the range EMS Sasuke has, which can shoot 13 Amaterasus in mid-range shot, and shoot arrows form mid range. All she has is close-range, which is why she got owned so bad by Juubidara, someone much below Kaguya, which proofs that if she wasn't put in this perfect position, she would have never being effective.

Which is what I have repeated to you a thousand times. She is strong, but inefficient. Kakashi's Kamui is a one-shot technique too, but has a much better range. So in the end, Sakura still falls short to Kakashi, KCM Naruto, BM Naruto, MS and EMS Sasuke.





> And quite honestly Hebi-Sasuke/Wind-Arc Naruto and I even doubt MS-Sasuke/SM-Naruto would have been as helpful.


I don't know about that, because it was Sasuke's Amaterasu that prevented Kaguya from entering the Ice-world in the first place.





> I think you have it wrong. My personal opinion is that Sakura is BM-Naruto level, though I can understand the view point that she is KCM-Naruto level. Anything far bellow that, is completely going against cannon imo.


Well, you are even more wrong that I thought. You, who kept wanking at BM Naruto now shit on him by putting someone as ineffective/unefficient/one trick pony againts Naruto, who can use Tajuu Kagebunshins of 2,000 clones to overwhelm her, can outright shushin blitz her and decapitate her with a Rasengan, and can activate Bijuu Mode and outright beat the other Bijuu by himself, and then was the primary person contributing to pulling the Juubi out of Obito. Sakura was there too, as a side-character, which is her role dude.

Sakura had that chapter, and then the other chapter, she stepped back to heal people, while Sasuke and Naruto kept fighting the Juubi and then Juubito. Which proves my point, she might be as useful as them overall, but not in combat.
*
Hell, that same BM Naruto that you say Sakura is tied with, is the same Naruto who gave chakra to the whole alliance INCLUDING SAKURA. If Sakura is as strong as him, why didn't she play the main role in beating Juubito?*

Why did EMS Sasuke and Naruto merge their powers and Sakura was kept out?

She wasn't in their league, and Kishimoto just made this panel to have Team  7 win this final fight as a team, and to do so, he put her in the perfect position to be able to do something.

It's like Jiraiya randomly appearing and beating Nagato with a prepped Frog song thanks to Naruto or Sasuke's help or something. Doesn't mean Jiraiya would stand any chance againts Nagato by himself.

And to me, this whole situation to me seems hypocrital because you were the one who kept saying how Itachi had so much help againts Nagato, and that if he hadn't had that help, he'd be owned by Nagato, yet here you are running you mouth saying Sakura is on God tier, and as strong as BM Naruto because she was part of this 

Sakura didn't cut off an arm like Naruto and Kakashi did. Sakura didn't make Kaguya not want to teleport to the iceworld like Sasuke did. Sakura didn't survive an onslaught from Kaguya aimed at killing her directly like Kakashi and Naruto both did. And Sakura didn't seal Kaguya like Naruto and Sasuke did. Replace her with Tsunade, and there is no proof that she wouldn't have done the same, if helped by Kakashi like that. Hell, Kakashi was the one who came up with the plan. And if Tsunade could do it, and she's like low-kage level, why are you saying she is anywhere near BM Naruto level?

What makes things worst is, that Naruto knows about Sakura's whole arsenal, and thus would never let himself be hit by her only trick that could do anything. Can Sakura outspeed Naruto? Can she fight a thousand BM clones? No, she cannot.


> It may not be a popular opinion, but I will hold it until something is shown or stated to the contrary. . And no BM-Naruto having better feats, because he has had infinitely more panel time than Sakura as the MC, is not an argument I accept as credible. So far i haven't seen anything, other than Sakura being extremely useful against the sentient god Kaguya, which I doubt we'd see someone inferior to BM-Naruto being as useful against


Again, with this, you're just making this *completely up*.

The statement you had was of KCM Naruto, so moving Sakura up a tier or two just because you want to in your imagination, is fine and all, but keep that in your imagination. Don't run around the forums saying Sakura is BM Naruto, because she is not. Naruto would completely own Sakura.

But if you wanna make up levels like that, I'll do the same. Sakura is Tsunade level because she has nothing Tsunade doesn't have, Tsunade has Byakugo too, and if you replace Sakura with Tsunade, the outcome with Kaguya would have probably being the same.

This is what Sage Naruto can do, imagine BM, when even KCM admitted he was much stronger than his SM self.



Sakura cannot survive that coming from BM Naruto, hell, I doubt she can from SM Naruto. 

Putting her on Naruto's BM level is a disrespect to Naruto.

Naruto is Ashura's reincarnation, had FRS training, had Sage training, had Bijuu training, etc.

So you're saying Sakura is as strong as Naruto, who had 3 more training arcs than her, and who already was much stronger than her at the end of Part 1, and at the start of Part 2? When Naruto has Sage AND Kurama's chakras? Are you kidding me?

What ability does she have to put him on that level? Byakugo? Tsunade has that too dude. And Naruto was concerned for her safety againts Ei, who isn't anywhere near this level.

Naruto would have to be a pretty weak ninja to only be around Sakura's level, with all those extra training arcs, and all that outside help (Kyuubi)


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## Blu-ray (Aug 25, 2014)

This thread.

I'll try to be a little objective since no one else wants to.

On the defensive side of things for Sakura, her chakra control is at a level where she can break out of Kabuto's genjutsu via Kai or self inflicted damage, or just have a piece of Katsuyu do it. She can kill Manda II with a few punches at the very most, wait out the duration of Haku Geki, survive getting skewered by Muki Tensei and impaled for Sawarabi no Mai, and Chakra scalpel slashes have nothing on Byakugo.

As for how she puts down Kabuto.

On the offensive end, she will never land a direct hit on Kabuto by rushing and hoping she lands, but she does have options. When she smashes the ground, it's uprooted to the point Juubi fodder are sent flying and look like rubble. Kabuto is no different, and in fact would be damaged by the impact as well, although he'd most likely survive it.

As good as his evasion is, he cannot maneuver in mid air in a clear open field with nothing to jump off of or grapple, and nothing is stopping Sakura from jumping and hitting the helpless Kabuto. The fact that she could break Kaguya's horn with a single hit, means Kabuto is going to be looking like Madara after he took guys boot.

The problem is the moment Sakura comes close, Kabuto will escape by spitting out a new body over yonder with Orochimaru's body replacement, meaning she'll just be attacking a molten shell. 

Sakura is a smart girl however, and considering Katsuya knows Orochimaru said it's acid could kill him, Sakura will simply send Kabuto flying again with a ground pound and have Katsuyu spray her acid in an inescapable arc. 

If push comes to shove, she can simply outlast Kabuto, because even if he has unlimited natural energy, his spiritual and physical energy will run out. Considering Sakura's chakra can fuel the dimensional opening three times, something even Kaguya finds taxing, I doubt any none Rikudo person can outlast her.


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Somebody has to have pity on Sakura


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 25, 2014)

She is not breaking a Genjutsu that Sasuke with EMS or Itachi, a Genjutsu specialist couldn't by herself.

Nor can she kill Kabuto, who can liquify his body.

Nor can she do anything againts White Rage.

She gets owned in more ways than one.

Manda is perfect to deal with Katsuyu. And thats without even counting Edo Tensei.

Sakura is around Tsunade level, low kage level, nowhere near someone like Kabuto. Hell, Kabuto would eat someone like her for breakfast. He'd beat her even in Base.

@ Turrin, when did Kishimoto state Sakura is BM Naruto level? Or where did you get that from?


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## Trojan (Aug 26, 2014)

There is no way in hell Sakura can be in BM Naruto's level.


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## Megu-Nee (Aug 26, 2014)

why are you pitting my faves together

of course kabuto with the all-purpose hashirama cells and edo tensei will win. 

but i wish i seen medics fight..


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## Hachibi (Aug 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because Kaguya was also in the air. Re-read my previous post, you seem to have missed the point being about Kaguya.



You just said that Sakura's foot speed is superior to Kaguya's, yet it didn't matter for the scan I posted and the page where she broke her horn: When Kaguya blitzed her (in the scan that I posted)
She did only have the time to turn her head. When she broke her horn, they were *both* in the _air_. So why bring Sakura's foot speed then since it didn't have a role in either of the situation?


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## Butterfly (Aug 26, 2014)

This thread is ridiculous and very few people here are coming off likeable. Where is a mod? Y'all are running amok with spite threads and flames over Sakura. Let that sink in for a moment that you're dedicating your time to Sakura. Half of you need to be put down for a nap and the other half need to be put up for adoption.

That said, Sakura doesn't have the skillset to beat Part II Kabuto , especially with sage mode. She can stave him off for a bit with regeneration and Katsuyu, but that's about it. 

I've seen the battledome rationalize the impossible before. How is it hat when Sakura finally does something indisputable on panel, it's picked apart and ignored as "nonsensical" yet Naruto/Sasuke/etc. can keep gaining powers and do the impossible to fanfare and rationalization. We use the manga as evidence and if the manga states Sakura is skilled enough to hit God in the face with the help of her allies (which is a no small feat anyways) then we have to go with that. We just can't pick and choose which impossible feats to endorse and which to not. It doesn't make sense, but so does half o fthe manga at this point. It's really transparent to see Sakura's actions constantly scrutinized and played as consistently weak, when the manga is literally doing everything in its power to state the opposite. She doesn't have to be God Tier, but some recognition for the speed that she had to use to land a hit on God would make a vast majority of you look a lot less like fools  for trying to argue direct, clear cut manga evidence/ having This be the impossible feat that is not battledome elligible when people are able to cite the Great Snake Escape, js.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> You just said that Sakura's foot speed is superior to Kaguya's, yet it didn't matter for the scan I posted and the page where she broke her horn: When Kaguya blitzed her (in the scan that I posted)
> She did only have the time to turn her head. When she broke her horn, they were *both* in the _air_. So why bring Sakura's foot speed then since it didn't have a role in either of the situation?


No I did not. I said Kaguya's Foot-Speed > Kaguya's Flight Speed.


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## Hachibi (Aug 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No I did not. I said Kaguya's Foot-Speed > Kaguya's Flight Speed.



Kaguya didn't show anything as foot speed is conserned. I could be wrong tho.
And she was in the air when she blitzed Sakura.



And it's the page before the page I showed btw.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> How is it hat when Sakura finally does something indisputable on panel, it's picked apart and ignored as "nonsensical" yet Naruto/Sasuke/etc. can keep gaining powers and do the impossible to fanfare and rationalization.



Wow really ? 

We aren't bothered with Sasuke and Naruto gaining powers and doing the impossible because they kept doing it through out the entire manga, they were always one step ahead of their peers and even @ points they left their "superiors" in the dust. 

Sakura on the other hand, was weak, co dependant, had literally no abilities that stood out through out the entire manga and all of a sudden Kishimoto thinks he can write that all off by making Sakura think to herself that she "caught up" with Naruto & Sasuke ? Excuse me but Kishimoto(and anyone who buys that shit) can go fuck himself.

Sakura needs to go 8 gated Gai level to be able to "keep up" with Naruto&Sasuke with her moveset. She has what ? Strong punches and healing for a limited amount of time ? Sorry, but she'd get her ass stomped by any kage level shinobi worth their salt. 


Let this sink in. A healers role in a battle is to stay back and support others. Its like in real war. Medics don't go in the front lines, they don't have the same combat training as frontliners do, and other than treating the wounded they are mostly useless.
Sakura is no different.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Kaguya didn't show anything as foot speed is conserned. I could be wrong tho.
> And she was in the air when she blitzed Sakura.
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough, she looked like she was on the ground in the panel you showed before. It still doesn't matter anyway, as speed fluctuates depending on the techniques utilized, and people can get caught off guard by an initial burst of higher speed than expect when otherwise they would not be (See Jiriaya vs Pain).  So I do not think this is anymore inconsistent than what is to be expect from this manga.


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## Hachibi (Aug 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Fair enough, she looked like she was on the ground in the panel you showed before. It still doesn't matter anyway, as speed fluctuates depending on the techniques utilized, and people can get caught off guard by an initial burst of higher speed than expect when otherwise they would not be (See Jiriaya vs Pain).  So I do not think this is anymore inconsistent than what is to be expect from this manga.



Ok then


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