# Konan vs. Deidara



## Invictus-Kun (Oct 5, 2014)

Location: Sand Village
Distance: 100 meters, both of them on ground
Intel: Manga and Anime
Mindset: Kill or be Killed

Scenario 1: No Billions of Exploding papers for Konan and No Self Destruct Bomb fro Deidara
Scenario 2: With Billions of Exploding Papers for Konan and With Self Destruct Bomb for Deidara

Artist vs. Artist
Beauty vs Bitch


Who Will Win?
Who will Lose?
Is this a draw?

You decide.


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## Monster (Oct 5, 2014)

Konan both scenarios.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 5, 2014)

Why Konan? Explain please....


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## Zyrax (Oct 5, 2014)

Deidara bombs her ass


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2014)

Deidara oneshots with C2 homing missile.


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

deidara stomps with his nano sized bombs


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Konan would win. Deidara will dick around with C1, which Konan will counter with Shikigami and than wrap him up with paper before he gets a chance to fly away killing him. 

In scenario 2 Deidara gets stomped.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 5, 2014)

People always thinks he messes around but he never did that and lost.

Diedara bombs her ass ofc


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> People always thinks he messes around but he never did that and lost.
> 
> Diedara bombs her ass ofc



Ambush-Squad

And all the other times circumstance or straight up deus ex machina saved his ass.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

I remember when this was a really popular reaction image around here:



Now, thanks to Kishi's hack writing and a handful of impressionable readers with selective memory, it's like Deidara isn't taken seriously anymore. It's sad. He used to be a respected mid-tier in this manga.

A garbage-tier like Konan isn't even worth the 10 seconds it would take him to destroy a whole village full of people like her.

Let's not add to the fucking stupidity of this manga, please. The ambush squad's victory was nothing more than a contrived fluke and not even faintly reflective of Deidara's true capabilities. Call me when Konan can step to Gaara and Hebi Sasuke.


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## Rocky (Oct 5, 2014)

Gaara with an entire desert was having difficulties hitting Deidara. Konan has zero chance of hitting him with flying paper. 

*Zero.*

Deidara can probably win this with just C1. Guided pieces of paper < guided explosives.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 5, 2014)

Gaara was defending this village. Duh


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I remember when this was a really popular reaction image around here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was legit laughing my ass off when reading this, because of the amount of denial present.

Of course back in the day Deidara's power/level was more respected, so were a-lot of characters. Because it was before Kishi showed even close to the full capabilities of most Kages, may of the Akatsuki members, etc... Deidara power was top notch back in the day when characters like Kabuto (pre Oro DNA) were some of the strongest, and he only lost to a character who was also one of the strongest at the time (Hebi-Sasuke). However fast forward to the present and now that we got to see many more Kages, Akatsuki, etc... in action it is clear that Deidara is not up to there level, and is no longer anywhere close to the top of the power-scale.

Back in the day there were ninja in the top 10 (that we've seen fight) that could get owned by the ambush-squad. Because characters didn't have the level of power they do now. 

It's an unwillingness to accept this power-scaling that leads to nonsensical beliefs like yours that Deidara is still somehow relevant went put up against the Gokage, Edo-Kages, Sannin, or pretty much any other major player in the present arcs of the manga. Kishi clearly illustrated such by having him be handled by the ambush-squad, while giving much better showings to more major players. 

And all that stuff about Kishi being a bad writer, just seems like a desperate plea on your part to get people to ignore the manga-cannon and how Kishi actually views Deidara's capabilities as a Ninja, in favor of fanficition Deidara who is still relevant compared to the current top players, which basically amounts to arguing against the author himself. 

Basically this is like someone saying, well back in the day spartans were the greatest warriors. Therefore I bet that spartan would put up a good fight against a special ops agent with a automatic rifle 

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As for the Konan thing. It's utter hypocrisy that even puts Deidara in Konan's league. Deidara also need prep-time to create his clay reserves he brings into battle. Yet Deidara gets Max-clay reserves and Konan gets no time to prep any explosive notes, that's utter BS. Konan with no prep would still have her shikigami skills and vastly greater experience/intelligence over Deidara, and would own Deidara who has no prep (and therefore no clay reserves). On the flip side of this if both are given prep Konan would also rape Deidara due to the sheer number of explosive tags she'd have, and giving both extensive prep Konan would once again rape deidara w/ Paper Ocean. And Konan's a shit tier, why? because she got f'd up by legendy sannin who had knowledge of her weakness and the right jutsu to exploit it; give me a break, in Deidara's case it doesn't even take a legendary sannin, Omoi/Kankuro/Sai w/ knowledge of his weakness are enough to rape him at his best w/ back up, probably if he wasn't an Edo Omoi + Sai or Sai + Kankuro alone would be enough. If Deidara went up against a Legendary Sannin w/ Raiton and knowledge of Deidara's weakness, I don't even wan't to imagine the raping he'd receive.


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## Kadu (Oct 5, 2014)

Deidara wins straight up, no match.


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## Rocky (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> As for the Konan thing. It's utter hypocrisy that even puts Deidara in Konan's league. Deidara also need prep-time to create his clay reserves he brings into battle. Yet Deidara gets Max-clay reserves and Konan gets no time to prep any explosive notes, that's utter BS. Konan with no prep would still have her shikigami skills and vastly greater experience/intelligence over Deidara, and would own Deidara who has no prep (and therefore no clay reserves). On the flip side of this if both are given prep Konan would also rape Deidara due to the sheer number of explosive tags she'd have, and giving both extensive prep Konan would once again rape deidara w/ Paper Ocean





That bullshit is akin to saying Gaara shouldn't be given his prepared sand without giving the opposition preparation as well. Or Sakura & Tsunade shouldn't be given their prepared chakra stored in their diamond seals without their opponents being given years of preparation as well.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That bullshit is akin to saying Gaara shouldn't be given his prepared sand without giving the opposition preparation as well. Or Sakura & Tsunade shouldn't be given their prepared chakra stored in their diamond seals without their opponents being given years of preparation as well.


There are simply different levels of prep. Usually we give a ninja prep for what they could carry with them. Deidara gets his clay reserves, Garaa gets his sand, etc.... Konan carried enough paper with her to form the giant Tree that hid Nagato during the Pain arc. Therefore the amount of explosive notes she can carry with her should number into the thousands, if not tens of thousands, heck even her paper clone required several hundreds if not thousands of pieces of paper. Unless of course you want to argue Konan can create the thousands of pieces of paper on the fly, in which case Dedara also gets raped, even Shikkamaru carried hundreds of explosive notes when he engaged Hidan. What is not fair is saying Konan can only get like 10 explosive notes and the paper she can generate by turning her body to paper, while not being allowed to carry anything beyond that with her into battle.


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## Rocky (Oct 5, 2014)

They don't get how much they can feasibly carry. They get what they typically go into battle with..

I have no clue how many explosive tags Konan typically carries into battle.


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## Hachibi (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> As for the Konan thing. It's utter hypocrisy that even puts Deidara in Konan's league. Deidara also need prep-time to create his clay reserves he brings into battle. Yet Deidara gets Max-clay reserves and Konan gets no time to prep any explosive notes, that's utter BS. Konan with no prep would still have her shikigami skills and vastly greater experience/intelligence over Deidara, and would own Deidara who has no prep (and therefore no clay reserves). On the flip side of this if both are given prep Konan would also rape Deidara due to the sheer number of explosive tags she'd have, and giving both extensive prep Konan would once again rape deidara w/ Paper Ocean.





Deidara's Clay Bags isn't comparable to Konan's explosive tags


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> They don't get how much they can feasibly carry. They get what they typically go into battle with..
> 
> I have no clue how many explosive tags Konan typically carries into battle.


Fine let's go off that then (not that I necessarily agree with it, especially in this circumstance). Than how do we evaluate what "tier" Konan is on or how she'd perform against Deidara at all. Let alone being able to say Deidara rapes.

Your literally admitting you have absolutely no estimate for how capable Konan actually is, and yet in previous posts say she'd get owned by just C1. How does that even begin to be a coherent stand point to hold



Hachibi said:


> Deidara's Clay Bags isn't comparable to Konan's explosive tags



Why? And to be clear i'm not talking about the amount she had against Tobi. I'm saying she can carry at least tens of thousands based on the amount of paper she had with her during the Pain-Arc. Unless again, one wishes to argue she can spontaneously generate that amount of paper, in which case Deidara is also fucked.


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## Rocky (Oct 5, 2014)

Because Konan's evasive feats are horrid and Deidara's explosives are more potent than standard paper bombs.


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## Hachibi (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Why? And to be clear i'm not talking about the amount she had against Tobi. I'm saying she can carry at least tens of thousands based on the amount of paper she had with her during the Pain-Arc. Unless again, one wishes to argue she can spontaneously generate that amount of paper, in which case Deidara is also fucked.



Deidara's Clay Bags are his standard equipment (ie he has it all the time like Gaara and his gourd) while when did Konan ever carried Explosive Papers outside of her fight with Obito?

Also explosive paper aren't touching someone who could fly as fast as Onoki, could dodge Gaara's sand and Sasuke's blitz attempt.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Deidara's Clay Bags are his standard equipment (ie he has it all the time like Gaara and his gourd) while when did Konan ever carried Explosive Papers outside of her fight with Obito?
> 
> Also explosive paper aren't touching someone who could fly as fast as Onoki, could dodge Gaara's sand and Sasuke's blitz attempt.



Cough *Gaara caught Deidara* cough
Wow this Ebola is awful


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## Hachibi (Oct 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Cough *Gaara caught Deidara* cough
> Wow this Ebola is awful



Doesn't change the fact that he dodged Gaara's sand, even if it did caught him.

That's like saying that if I get touched by a bullet while I managed to dodge a few one (bullets) not too long ago, that mean I never dodged bullet.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 5, 2014)

Deidara wins with low difficulty. Such a bad matchup for Konan, she won't be able to see where the nano bombs are and she can't diffuse the bombs because she doesn't have Raiton. Deidara eviscerates her easily. Not to mention C0 she gets wiped instantly, which is likely bigger than the range of her 600 billion paper bombs.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Because Konan's evasive feats are horrid and .


Deidara's evasive feats are more horrid, if were looking at low end displays. Jiriaya >>>>>>> Sai. If were looking at high end, Konan was able to react to Kyuubi-SM-Naruto in time to get between Naruto's attack and Nagato, which is better than any display Deidara has.

Edit: I should also note that Konan did react to Gamayudan and guarded. She didn't evade, but that is probably because she didn't see it warranting evasion, and it wouldn't have if not for the Oil's sticky properties to bind her paper; something she was unaware of. 



> Deidara's explosives are more potent than standard paper bombs


That obviously comes down to the number of paper-bombs, which again you stated you don't know how many Konan has on her person. 



Hachibi said:


> Deidara's Clay Bags are his standard equipment (ie he has it all the time like Gaara and his gourd) while when did Konan ever carried Explosive Papers outside of her fight with Obito?
> 
> Also explosive paper aren't touching someone who could fly as fast as Onoki, could dodge Gaara's sand and Sasuke's blitz attempt.


When did Konan have a proper fight outside of Obito? Against Jiriaya she was just there to scout out who invaded Ame for Pain. Against Konoha she sent a mere paper bushin, which we didn't get to see fight. Though in the Konoha invasion she seems to have carried with her or generated tens of thousands of pieces of paper. And than there is her fight against Obito, where she prepared 1Bil in-order to face him. And clearly based on that battle she not only realizes the merit of using paper explosives with her style, but concocted a plan completely around using those explosive notes. So it seems to me that you can ether hold the stand-point that you don't know how Konan would perform because you don't know how many pieces of paper and explosive notes she typically carriers with her; or we can discuss her chances based on the maximum she could potentially be able to carry with her, which based on the tree feat would probably allow her to smoke Deidara.


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## Hachibi (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> When did Konan have a proper fight outside of Obito? Against Jiriaya she was just there to scout out who invaded Ame for Pain. Against Konoha she sent a mere paper bushin, which we didn't get to see fight. Though in the Konoha invasion she seems to have carried with her or generated tens of thousands of pieces of paper. And than there is her fight against Obito, where she prepared 1Bil in-order to face him. And clearly based on that battle she not only realizes the merit of using paper explosives with her style, but concocted a plan completely around using those explosive notes. So it seems to me that you can ether hold the stand-point that you don't know how Konan would perform because you don't know how many pieces of paper and explosive notes she typically carriers with her; or we can discuss her chances based on the maximum she could potentially be able to carry with her, which based on the tree feat would probably allow her to smoke Deidara.



Even if she carried the number she had to create the tree, they won't touch someone who's fast enough to fly at the same rate as Onoki.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Even if she carried the number she had to create the tree, they won't touch someone who's fast enough to fly at the same rate as Onoki.


Based on what exactly? It's not like Onoki has feats of evading tens of thousands of pieces of paper. Let's also not go crazy here, because that speed is reliant on him flying on his fastest clay mount and at top-speeds. If he starts the fight on the ground or flies as he did against the ambush-squad he is not going anywhere near that speed. If he fights on C2 dragon he had trouble evading thrown Shuriken. So Deidara speed is too inconsistent to expect the best performance 100% of the time, during a match, anyway.

I also think it's best to take another look at this tree:
A's elbow
Link removed

Konan can literally fill up the sky with that amount of paper, cornering Deidara completely.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Based on what exactly? It's not like Onoki has feats of evading tens of thousands of pieces of paper. Let's also not go crazy here, because that speed is reliant on him flying on his fastest clay mount and at top-speeds. If he starts the fight on the ground or flies as he did against the ambush-squad he is not going anywhere near that speed. If he fights on C2 dragon he had trouble evading thrown Shuriken. So Deidara speed is too inconsistent to expect the best performance 100% of the time, during a match, anyway.
> 
> I also think it's best to take another look at this tree:
> Link removed
> ...



The sand Gaara chased Deidara with was fuckloads bigger than that tree, and Deidara still managed to sneak in those guided bombs and destroy Deidara.

And there is no fucking way Konan is avoiding the AOE of C2 and above.

If you think Konan can overwhelm deidara with paper, then you should believe that she can do it to Onoki as well, which is probably a thought you wouldn't even entertain.


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## Hachibi (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Based on what exactly? It's not like Onoki has feats of evading tens of thousands of pieces of paper.Let's also not go crazy here, because that speed is reliant on him flying on his fastest clay mount and at top-speeds. If he starts the fight on the ground or flies as he did against the ambush-squad he is not going anywhere near that speed. If he fights on C2 dragon he had trouble evading thrown Shuriken. So Deidara speed is too inconsistent to expect the best performance 100% of the time, during a match, anyway.
> 
> I also think it's best to take another look at this tree:
> Link removed
> ...



The only reason he had problem dodging those shuriken is because he didn't see them coming. And her paper would get blow up. Hell, they don't have any impressive speed feat that I remember.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> The only reason he had problem dodging those shuriken is because he didn't see them coming.


Kind of like how he'd have trouble keep track of each individual piece of paper out of tens of thousands of pieces of paper?



> And her paper would get blow up


Deidara can't blow up tens of thousands of pieces of paper at once, he'd blow up some pieces that were flying at him, while the others coming from different directions would still get him. Once the paper got close enough to him he wouldn't even be able to blow up his bombs at all or he'd kill himself. Not to mention the paper can be shaped into shuriken that can slice right through the bombs and keep coming at Deidara. 



> Hell, they don't have any impressive speed feat that I remember.


Konan was able to control the paper to stick to Tobi faster than he could ST-Warp away:
Link removed

They were also able to close, the distance between herself and Tobi in a single panel:
Link removed

And she was able to part the ocean before Obito could jump away:
Link removed

Jiraiya also narrowly evaded them from a far distance away:
Link removed

And any speed deficiencies are made up for in number of attacks. Just like Shino's Bugs aren't speed demons, but they were able to corner Obito, through sheer numbers.


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## The Faceless Man (Oct 5, 2014)

Deidara stomps and tie in the suicide scenario.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 5, 2014)

Just adding, no Microscopic bombs for Deidara, I forgot to put in on OP


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Just adding, no Microscopic bombs for Deidara, I forgot to put in on OP



Implying Deidara needs C4 to stomp this


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Implying Deidara needs C4 to stomp this


Implying C4 would even work against someone who won't even have lungs for 99% of the battle


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 5, 2014)

No my dudes, just adding it for the sake of restrictions.

Gaara had no lungs too?


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## Pocalypse (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Implying C4 would even work against someone who won't even have lungs for 99% of the battle



How does she breathe then? Don't tell me you believe Kakuzu doesn't breathe too because he's made out of tentacles ck


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## Grimsley (Oct 5, 2014)

Konan wins. Explosive clones should do the job considering how arrogant and careless Deidara is sometimes. 



Pocalypse said:


> How does she breathe then? Don't tell me you believe Kakuzu doesn't breathe too because he's made out of tentacles ck



How _would_ she breathe if her whole body disperses into paper? Logically she wouldn't need to breathe; this is Naruto after all where humans can bring down meteors.


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## Legendary Itachi (Oct 5, 2014)

Same reason why Sasori doesn't need lungs to survive though. 

And well, C1 can't stomp Konan, that's too much.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 5, 2014)

Sasori is a different case. He doesn't have a human body at all, he's just a puppet which is able to survive by his heart implanted in the body. Konan actually has a physical body, her paper bombs were dangerous to herself as well so she can definitely obtain physical injuries otherwise if it's just "lol paper" then she wouldn't feel anything.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 5, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Sasori is a different case. He doesn't have a human body at all, he's just a puppet which is able to survive by his heart implanted in the body.



You gotta wonder how he implanted it to begin with.



> Konan actually has a physical body, her paper bombs were dangerous to herself as well so she can definitely obtain physical injuries otherwise if it's just "lol paper" then she wouldn't feel anything.



They were dangerous because they run the risk of _disintegrating the rest of her paper_; using paper bomb's in that manner is equivalent to Konan blowing herself up (like Deidara's clone did).

I'd think that her true body should only be harmed if the amount of paper she's generated starts amounting to less than what would make up her physical body.

If she's in logia mode Konan won't be affected by C4 any more than the trees on the battlefield were when it was used.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> How does she breathe then? Don't tell me you believe Kakuzu doesn't breathe too because he's made out of tentacles ck


The same way she can exist w/o a heart, lungs, brain, etc... she's a magical ninja w/ paper powers.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 5, 2014)

Orochimaru was likely the one who implanted the heart since they used to work together back in Akatsuki. 

The explosion was still able to injure her real body, not just her paper form. C4 affects anything which breathes, there’s nothing to say Konan can’t escape it just because she doesn’t have “lungs”. Obito had to get out of range from C4 and we know he didn’t need to do that when he has Kamui.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 5, 2014)

^

Kakuzu is made of threads and don't need no lungs when his jutsu makes him mighty thread young.  Konan doesn't breath when paper angel is changing her body into paper.  She got half her brain blown up, and she reforged it out of paper.  She's smart, but she's probably not smart enough to live with half a brain.

C3P0 won't travel through her non-existant bloodstream.  But Deidara's other, fieldwide explosives are a good counter, because he can blow up all her paper.  On the other hand, it's not like Konan can't fly and send sizable attacks, and explosions at him.  Konan can survive and repair from some of her getting blown up.  Deidara can't make Deidara parts out of clay.  She has that advantage.  On the other hand, Deidara has super awesome flying speed feats, even if Konan beats him in reaction feats with her timing her self destruct between kamui openings thing.  I favor him vs her in general, even if I think she's supposed to be above him in manga standing.  

The argument that she couldn't even dodge Jiriaya is misleading I think.  It's not as if she didn't have a body that could ignore virtually any attack that _wasn't_ oil.  Her bored reaction always struck me as her not bothering to move, which make more sense given her rush on Obitotobito.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 5, 2014)

All of you delete your posts and then re-submit them so it becomes clear that I was motioning towards Flaming Rain's post.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 5, 2014)

Why don't you just quote him then edit your post?


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## StickaStick (Oct 5, 2014)

Konan forms a paper clone behind Deidera unawares to him and lops his head off with a paper scythe.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara was defending this village. Duh



He defended the village from C3, which was the only time over the course of their fight that Deidara actually attacked it. The rest of the time, Gaara was moving the whole fucking desert around trying to catch him. And failing.



Turrin said:


> I was legit laughing my ass off when reading this, because of the amount of denial present.



You deny anything about Deidara that didn't happen in the ambush squad clash so go ahead and laugh. There seem to be a few other people here laughing, too--and they're not laughing at me.



> Of course back in the day Deidara's power/level was more respected, so were a-lot of characters. Because it was before Kishi showed even close to the full capabilities of most Kages, may of the Akatsuki members, etc... Deidara power was top notch back in the day when characters like Kabuto (pre Oro DNA) were some of the strongest, and he only lost to a character who was also one of the strongest at the time (Hebi-Sasuke).



When the fuck was pre-Hebi Kabuto EVER "some of the strongest"? The Chuunin Exams, maybe.

Yeah, there has been power inflation and a fuck load of new feats, but there are characters from back then who are still taken seriously while Deidara has very noticeably gotten the shaft for one poor performance, to the utter exclusion of his many spectacular ones.



> However fast forward to the present and now that we got to see many more Kages, Akatsuki, etc... in action it is clear that Deidara is not up to there level, and is no longer anywhere close to the top of the power-scale.



Some Kage and some Akatsuki have proven to be stronger than Deidara. That is true.

But Konan is not even close to being one of them. And the power scale has not shifted so much as to eliminate Deidara from the mid tier range entirely. Kisame, Gaara, Oonoki, the Sannin... These are all guys he could give a solid fight; I'd go as far as to say he would beat any of them, personally, but they are at least on his level.



> Back in the day there were ninja in the top 10 (that we've seen fight) that could get owned by the ambush-squad. Because characters didn't have the level of power they do now.



No ninja in the top 10 since the timeskip would even have difficulty with the alliance's ambush squad. Right from the start, you have Gaara, Deidara, Sasori, Kakashi w/ Kamui, 6th Gated Gai, Naruto with multiple tails, the Sannin, Itachi, Kisame, Minato. Yeah. Fucking tell me that Sai, Kankuro, and some other fodder would give those guys a rough time. Gaara and Naruto are probably the weakest in the crop and they would fucking _*destroy*_ the ambush squad. If Sasori had actually had his puppets, he would've murdered them all with just Hiruko; Chiyo admitted she couldn't break it open on her own, so the ambush squad is _fucked_ because they've got less offensive power than she had.



> It's an unwillingness to accept this power-scaling that leads to nonsensical beliefs like yours that Deidara is still somehow relevant went put up against the Gokage,



Or it's the completely benign and logical realization that Mei, Gaara, and Tsunade simply haven't shown what it takes to beat Deidara (because they haven't), while Oonoki is probably a toss-up and the Raikage wins decisively because speed+Raiton.



> Edo-Kages,



Deidara beat Gaara, so the 4th Kazekage can be crossed off. The Mizukage's got no way to reach an airborne Deidara and won't survive C3 or C4. Muu's invisibility might give him the edge, but it's not impossible to fight and Deidara may even have some knowledge of it (since this is one of his village's former Kage); the C4 Karura would be an effective way to kill Muu without locating him, if Deidara can avoid getting blindsided first. The 3rd Raikage is exceptional, but that doesn't reflect poorly on Deidara. Regardless of the outcome, Deidara can give any of these guys a good fight.



> Sannin,



Even if you entertain the doubtful notion that Byakugo can negate the effects of C4, it's not like Tsunade can actually beat him; she doesn't have the range, so even if she survives all his attacks, the best she can do is force a stalemate. Orochimaru and Jiraiya, on the other hand, aren't really equipped to deal with C4 at all, and their ranged options are limited, so they could still very easily fall prey to Deidara's Jutsu. Again, regardless of the outcome, all three would be good matches; Deidara is not out of his league with any of them.



> or pretty much any other major player in the present arcs of the manga.



If Mei counts as a "major player" then you can shut up because Deidara one-shots that bitch.



> Kishi clearly illustrated such by having him be handled by the ambush-squad, while giving much better showings to more major players.



Wasn't it Kishi himself who said in an interview that he fucked Deidara over because he was too powerful as an Edo Tensei? Look around you. Everybody in their right fucking mind knows Deidara would anally rape the ambush squad _by himself_ if serious. Like C3 and he can just fucking go home. That easy.

Gaara. Team Gai. Team Kakashi. Sasuke. Oonoki.

Deidara fought all these guys, too. Where is his credit for that?

The ambush squad was by far the weakest batch of enemies he ever faced; it makes no sense to crucify him for losing to such a pitiful assortment of mooks, when he's fought competently against so much stronger.

And by the way, you bring up guys like the five Kage, Edo Kage, and Akatsuki...as if Konan were competition for any of them. I guess she might have a shot at Mei, but that's not impressive at all. 



> And all that stuff about Kishi being a bad writer, just seems like a desperate plea on your part to get people to ignore the manga-cannon and how Kishi actually views Deidara's capabilities as a Ninja, in favor of fanficition Deidara who is still relevant compared to the current top players, which basically amounts to arguing against the author himself.



You are not the author.

Kishi is the author, and yes he is a bad writer, but that's not what I said--I said how he chose to write Edo Deidara's defeat was terrible, and it was.

If you're curious about Kishi's actual opinion, again I'll bring up that he said in an interview Edo Deidara was like the most dangerous ninja ever. I'm fucking serious.



> Basically this is like someone saying, well back in the day spartans were the greatest warriors. Therefore I bet that spartan would put up a good fight against a special ops agent with a automatic rifle



Shitty analogy because virtually no technological advancement has taken place since Deidara's death to cause such a disparity in combat potential.



> ---------
> 
> As for the Konan thing. It's utter hypocrisy that even puts Deidara in Konan's league.



That is legit the dumbest thing I have heard in the NBD in quite a while. Deidara is capable of killing guys who would wipe the floor with Konan in seconds.



> Deidara also need prep-time to create his clay reserves he brings into battle. Yet Deidara gets Max-clay reserves and Konan gets no time to prep any explosive notes, that's utter BS.



Deidara always goes into battle with clay prepped. Always. Even when he fought Gaara, he had clay--it was less than his usual amount, but he still had it. Not even remotely the same thing as Konan's paper bomb trench, which wasn't portable and took her a considerable amount of time to generate and isn't something she can typically bring into a fight.



> Konan with no prep would still have her shikigami skills and vastly greater experience/intelligence over Deidara,



Deidara has a 4.5 in intelligence and no shortage of experience, so unless Konan turns out to be a perfect 5 (which we have no reason to believe, but it's not impossible), that shouldn't be a significant disadvantage. Actually, Konan could be the smartest fucking character in the whole manga and Deidara would still rub her out instantly with C1.



> and would own Deidara who has no prep (and therefore no clay reserves).



That's absurd. Deidara always makes sure to have clay with him any time he goes into battle; it's his standard gear. If you're going to call that prep, you may as well call all ninja tools prep. It's insane.



> On the flip side of this if both are given prep Konan would also rape Deidara due to the sheer number of explosive tags she'd have, and giving both extensive prep Konan would once again rape deidara w/ Paper Ocean.



Are you fucking kidding me.

Nevermind how shitty that reasoning is, comparing Deidara's "bringing clay to the fight" prep time to Konan's paper bomb trench prep time.

But it takes Konan HOW long to produce those 600 billion explosive tags?

If we are being completely fair, then Deidara should get the same amount of prep time.

So how many *hundreds, thousands, or more C3 and C4 models do you think that would be?*

Deidara with a stockpile of his highest-grade clay models would fucking rape 99.9% of the still-relevant characters in this manga. Dude, *FUCK* Paper Ocean; Deidara makes C3 Ocean and Konan's shitty little bomb trench will barely register as background noise.

Oh, and Deidara can fly. Konan's bomb trench is kinda useless, bro. 



> And Konan's a shit tier, why? because she got f'd up by legendy sannin who had knowledge of her weakness and the right jutsu to exploit it;



She got one-shotted by someone no faster than Deidara, and Deidara's got more than enough firepower to actually kill her. He main weapon is explosive tags, and a few of those can kill her; yes, she is trash tier.



> give me a break, in Deidara's case it doesn't even take a legendary sannin, Omoi/Kankuro/Sai w/ knowledge of his weakness are enough to rape him at his best w/ back up, probably if he wasn't an Edo Omoi + Sai or Sai + Kankuro alone would be enough.



Deidara wasn't "at his best"; he was screwing around and got taken out before he could up his game even a little bit. It was pure luck that they happened to have a Raiton user to keep Deidara neutralized, and they would've all been dead without him.



> If Deidara went up against a Legendary Sannin w/ Raiton and knowledge of Deidara's weakness, I don't even wan't to imagine the raping he'd receive.



1. None of the Sannin have Raiton, as far as we've seen.

2. Chances are, Deidara would kill any of the Sannin, but it would be a close fight either way. Whatever the outcome, he damn sure would not be one-paneled like a punk the way Konan was.

3. The weakest enemy Deidara ever beat would completely shit on the ambush squad that beat Edo Deidara. We have seen enough of Deidara's true power to make your low-balling inexcusable.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

@Nikushimi

Oh Niku there is just too much wrong for me to even care, and I barely cared about your opinion to begin with. So yeah don't expect me to bother responding to that mass of nonsense.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 5, 2014)

That was cooled.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Implying C4 would even work against someone who won't even have lungs for 99% of the battle



Konan keeps her upperbody intact when she is engaging her opponents. Obito was able to grab her neck twice. Jiraiya hit her with an oil bullet and wrapped her up. 
She can't do shit in her dispersed paper form anyway. She just floats around. 
With no knowledge of C4, she inhales it and dies. But like I said, thats not even necessary. Guided C1s can handle her pretty easily. If she disperses into a large AOE, then Deidara drops that bigass C2 and calls it a day.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Nikushimi
> 
> Oh Niku there is just too much wrong for me to even care, and I barely cared about your opinion to begin with. So yeah don't expect me to bother responding to that mass of nonsense.



You still cared enough to come up with this lameass cop-out. ck

I'll say it again: Call me when Konan can step with the likes of Gaara and Sasuke.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 5, 2014)

^

konan almost killed obito though, who's superior to the like of Sasuke and Gaara at the time.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Konan keeps her upperbody intact when she is engaging her opponents. Obito was able to grab her neck twice. Jiraiya hit her with an oil bullet and wrapped her up.
> She can't do shit in her dispersed paper form anyway. She just floats around.
> With no knowledge of C4, she inhales it and dies. But like I said, thats not even necessary. Guided C1s can handle her pretty easily. If she disperses into a large AOE, then Deidara drops that bigass C2 and calls it a day.



Since it's being brought up, I wonder if there's actually any evidence that Konan doesn't need to breathe.

Do we actually know how long she can stay completely dispersed? Does she have to reform to breathe every once in a while?

These are rhetorical questions; I don't think there are answers readily available in the manga. But I do think that the people claiming Konan can just stay in paper form without breathing for the full duration of the fight shouldn't marry themselves to that idea--she's never done it before.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> konan almost killed obito though, who's superior to the like of Sasuke and Gaara at the time.



That was an extreme case though. 

She worked for years to set up a trap that was specifically designed to kill Obito.

Shinobi don't get that kind of a head start in regular encounters.

edit : 



Nikushimi said:


> Since it's being brought up, I wonder if there's actually any evidence that Konan doesn't need to breathe.
> 
> Do we actually know how long she can stay completely dispersed? Does she have to reform to breathe every once in a while?
> 
> These are rhetorical questions; I don't think there are answers readily available in the manga. But I do think that the people claiming Konan can just stay in paper form without breathing for the full duration of the fight shouldn't marry themselves to that idea--she's never done it before.



I don't think she can either. She is a living being, so she needs to breathe.


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Oct 5, 2014)

The fact is, Either Konan had Lungs or not actually is not an issue, Konan had air in her body, wether it's oxygen or CO2, the is air, when there is air, the microscopic bombs will still go inside her body without lungs.


That why for the sake of good match, I say It's restricted for Deidera to use that, which I failed to put in OP.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> konan almost killed obito though, who's superior to the like of Sasuke and Gaara at the time.



^With prep time that she doesn't have here.

And she failed. She wasn't even remotely Obito's peer, and she couldn't kill him with all the prep time available to her.

And basically what GS said; that bomb trench is totally circumstantial, and there's a very definite difference in Konan's combat potential with and without access to it.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That was an extreme case though.
> She worked for years to set up a trap that was specifically designed to kill Obito.
> Shinobi don't get that kind of a head start in regular encounters.
> .



It was not for years. 
Konan was with the Akatsuk the whole time, so she had no reason to kill obito. She stated that she expected obito to come after Nagato's Rinnegan, but that's only after Nagato's death. So, she only had the time between Nagato's death and her battle with Obito.

Also, IIRC she stated that she tasted it many times, and therefore, she could prepare this jutsu several times in that amount of time in between Nagato's death, and the battle with obito.



Nikushimi said:


> ^With prep time that she doesn't have here.
> 
> And she failed. She wasn't even remotely Obito's peer, and she couldn't kill him with all the prep time available to her.
> 
> And basically what GS said; that kind of prep is not a reasonable expectation for the vast majority of other fights Konan would be involved in, and there's an enormous difference between what she's capable of with the bomb trench and without it.


Deidara had help against Sasuke as well. 
pretty sure it was Obito who prepared all those bombs under the ground for him. Not to mention Sasuke was not planning to kill him in the first place, and he stated that he even had another plan just in case.

against Gaara he couldn't have accomplish that had he not attacked the village. Gaara lost a lot of chakra just to protect the village. 

Yes, Konan did not look so good against Jiraiya, but that was because he already know her weakness, and he has it. The same thing happened with Deidara in the 4th war, where he got trashed without any problem.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Deidara had help against Sasuke as well.
> pretty sure it was Obito who prepared all those bombs under the ground for him.



Obito's help didn't really matter in the long run; Obito set up the minefield, yeah, but that's not really a huge contribution, and Sasuke ended up using it to his advantage to figure out Deidara's Raiton weakness. Deidara carried his own weight for most of the fight.



> Not to mention Sasuke was not planning to kill him in the first place, and he stated that he even had another plan just in case.



Sasuke never got a chance to kill Deidara until the very end, regardless of his intentions. As for his "other plan," pushing Sasuke as far as Deidara did is still more than Konan could ever hope to do.



> against Gaara he couldn't have accomplish that had he not attacked the village. Gaara lost a lot of chakra just to protect the village.



Gaara would not have a desert full of sand if he didn't have the village, and the desert sand was the whole reason Deidara attacked the village. 

Take away the village and Gaara loses his extra sand. Take away the extra sand and Deidara still puts bombs in his Absolute Defense and knocks him out when he guards with it.



> Yes, Konan did not look so good against Jiraiya, but that was because he already know her weakness, and he has it. The same thing happened with Deidara in the 4th war, where he got trashed without any problem.



The difference is, Deidara is capable of doing what Jiraiya did, and much more. Konan can't replicate anything the ambush squad did.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> You still cared enough to come up with this lameass cop-out. ck
> 
> I'll say it again: Call me when Konan can step with the likes of Gaara and Sasuke.



And you can call me when Deidara can


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And you can call me when Deidara can



too hard to read.

too hard to read.
too hard to read.
too hard to read.

He already did. Way to give me an easy setup.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> too hard to read.
> 
> too hard to read.
> too hard to read.
> ...


What's that, I couldn't hear you over Deidara needing Tobi's help to survive 10 seconds against Sasuke, and needing to hold the village hostage to survive Gaara for more than 20 seconds:





> Way to give me an easy setup.


Well I thought i'd throw you a softball, because the manga just provides me with so much:


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 5, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Why don't you just quote him then edit your post?



Best leave the moving and shaking to you young whippersnappers.  With your iPhones 4's, and your touchpad 3's, and your fancy personal computers with your Monster drinks infused with guarana and vitamin B12, and D to give you even more energy that you don't even need because you're too young to know what tired is.  Come back when you've had diphtheria, and then you can tell me what tired is!  And another thing.  Back in my day we got our vitamin D from the sun.  And our vitamin B only came in one number.  B!  That was a number back then.  We counted it between 0 and 1, so 1 wouldn't be so lonely.  What was I?  Oh yeah.  So move your posts!


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2014)

that post caused me a headache.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What's that, I couldn't hear you over Deidara needing Tobi's help to survive 10 seconds against Sasuke, and needing to hold the village hostage to survive Gaara for more than 20 seconds:



Obito was the one who distracted Deidara and gave Sasuke that opening in the first place. Deidara had no trouble reacting to Sasuke on his own:

[sp]
[/sp]

And you're fucking lying about Gaara. They were fighting for quite some time before Deidara ever targeted the village, and he was outrunning Gaara's sand. 

[sp][/sp]

Deidara said he attacked Suna so that Gaara would be forced to defend with his gourd sand, which Deidara had rigged with explosives. Take away the village and Gaara has no extra sand for Deidara to worry about. Matter of fact, just let him resort to C4 or CO and he doesn't need to target the village directly; Gaara's fucked and so is the village, if Deidara only has killing intent and enough clay to exercise it with his full power.

This is what happens when you're not an idiot, Turrin. This is what happens when you can examine the evidence critically with a level head and don't just argue based on what you think the author wants you to think. Stop embarrassing yourself.



> Well I thought i'd throw you a softball, because the manga just provides me with so much:



That panel has no conceivable relevance to any of this discussion.

Everything else, you took out of context, and it's only helping my argument. But this is what you should expect, for being so sloppy and thoughtless in your attempts to put your own spin on the evidence instead of citing it for what it actually is.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

@Nikushimi

The guy who claims Gaara outside Sungakuru, never has extra sand, besides his gourd sand, is calling people idiots


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 6, 2014)

Relax my friends. This is just a game.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> It was not for years.
> Konan was with the Akatsuk the whole time, so she had no reason to kill obito. She stated that she expected obito to come after Nagato's Rinnegan, but that's only after Nagato's death. So, she only had the time between Nagato's death and her battle with Obito.
> 
> Also, IIRC she stated that she tasted it many times, and therefore, she could prepare this jutsu several times in that amount of time in between Nagato's death, and the battle with obito.



I actually don't remember her specifying a time frame, but they have been working with Obito for years, she had all the time in the world to analyze Obito's powers and come up with a counter. She mentioned doing countless simulations. 

Even if the prep wasn't years but months or even weeks, that is still extreme. So my point stands.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Nikushimi
> 
> The guy who claims Gaara outside Sungakuru, never has extra sand, besides his gourd sand, is calling people idiots



There is a very evident difference between the volume of sand Gaara can generate from any given environment and the volume he can manipulate from a fucking _*desert*_, where it is already available in abundance.

And don't even try to weasel your way out of this by denying it, because I know you are one of those people who has always given special hype to Gaara in a desert battlefield. And there have been more than a few others who acknowledged this advantage--Deidara included.

Yet another weak ad hominem from you.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I actually don't remember her specifying a time frame, but they have been working with Obito for years, she had all the time in the world to analyze Obito's powers and come up with a counter. She mentioned doing countless simulations.
> 
> Even if the prep wasn't years but months or even weeks, that is still extreme. So my point stands.



Even if the prep time is just a day or a few hours, that's long enough for Deidara to mine the battlefield with C3 or scatter a C4 cloud. Then he can just auto-kill Konan as soon as the match starts.

Deidara w/ prep >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Konan w/ the same amount of prep


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2014)

I remember the times when we all thought Deidara was a "She." 

I wonder how many perverts jerked off to that


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 6, 2014)

I still masturbate to Deidara up to this day


----------



## Alex Payne (Oct 6, 2014)

It is sad to see how hatred for fictional character warps one's mind.


While Konan is somewhat well equipped to fight Deidara(flight, decent ranged moves, decent defenses, clones) all those abilities are inferior to Dei's. Deidara's flying is better, Deidara's ranged offense is better in speed, range, AoE and firepower, his clones are better(exploding bunshin with crazy AoE, Nendo Bunshin with ability to trap targets) and he can likely create more of them. Then there is Deidara's ability to adapt extremely quickly in the midst of combat as showed against Gaara, team Gai+Kakashi+Naruto and Sasuke. Kind of intelligence that would matter more in this fight. As opposed to Konan's superior planning feats. Deidara doesn't really need anything above C1+clones to win. C2 makes it easier and C3/C4 is plain overkill.


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## DavyChan (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I was legit laughing my ass off when reading this, because of the amount of denial present.
> 
> Of course back in the day Deidara's power/level was more respected, so were a-lot of characters. Because it was before Kishi showed even close to the full capabilities of most Kages, may of the Akatsuki members, etc... Deidara power was top notch back in the day when characters like Kabuto (pre Oro DNA) were some of the strongest, and he only lost to a character who was also one of the strongest at the time (Hebi-Sasuke). However fast forward to the present and now that we got to see many more Kages, Akatsuki, etc... in action it is clear that Deidara is not up to there level, and is no longer anywhere close to the top of the power-scale.
> 
> ...



I like this answer. i would make an in-depth answer but i see we have enough of that so i will just tag along saying Konan should win. Probably around mid-low high diff.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> It is sad to see how hatred for fictional character warps one's mind.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> I remember the times when we all thought Deidara was a "She."
> 
> I wonder how many perverts jerked off to that




I think I figured out why Turrin hates Deidara.

He first thought he was a she and went "dayum datass."
Jerked off a few times and next week translators confirmed that he was a he, so he went mad and disgusted with himself. He thought it was Deidara's fault and hated him ever since.

True story :ignoramus


----------



## DavyChan (Oct 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think I figured out why Turrin hates Deidara.
> 
> He first thought he was a she and went "dayum datass."
> Jerked off a few times and next week translators confirmed that he was a he, so he went mad and disgusted with himself. He thought it was Deidara's fault and hated him ever since.
> ...



Lol, it's called being logical and knowing when someone is stronger than someone. that is all. Konan > Deidara. Konan is shown to be one of the strongest akatsuki members.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2014)

dpwater25 said:


> Lol, it's called being logical and knowing when someone is stronger than someone. that is all. Konan > Deidara. Konan is shown to be one of the strongest akatsuki members.



You jerked off to Deidara too ?  

Damn. :ignoramus


----------



## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You jerked off to Deidara too ?
> 
> Damn. :ignoramus



"Projection is the misattribution of a person?s undesired thoughts, feelings or impulses onto another person who does not have those thoughts, feelings or impulses. Projection is used especially when the thoughts are considered unacceptable for the person to express, or they feel completely ill at ease with having them"


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think I figured out why Turrin hates Deidara.
> 
> He first thought he was a she and went "dayum datass."
> Jerked off a few times and next week translators confirmed that he was a he, so he went mad and disgusted with himself. He thought it was Deidara's fault and hated him ever since.
> ...





+ Rep


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin hates Deidara for some reason, Probably thinks Hidan could beat him.

Deidara wins as already pointed out. 



> It is sad to see how hatred for fictional character warps one's mind.
> 
> 
> While Konan is somewhat well equipped to fight Deidara(flight, decent ranged moves, decent defenses, clones) all those abilities are inferior to Dei's. Deidara's flying is better, Deidara's ranged offense is better in speed, range, AoE and firepower, his clones are better(exploding bunshin with crazy AoE, Nendo Bunshin with ability to trap targets) and he can likely create more of them. Then there is Deidara's ability to adapt extremely quickly in the midst of combat as showed against Gaara, team Gai+Kakashi+Naruto and Sasuke. Kind of intelligence that would matter more in this fight. As opposed to Konan's superior planning feats. Deidara doesn't really need anything above C1+clones to win. C2 makes it easier and C3/C4 is plain overkill.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> "Projection is the misattribution of a person’s undesired thoughts, feelings or impulses onto another person who does not have those thoughts, feelings or impulses. Projection is used especially when the thoughts are considered unacceptable for the person to express, or they feel completely ill at ease with having them"



Deidara isn't my type and I don't hate him. Sorry Dr.Freud, but I don't fit the bill 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Turrin hates Deidara for some reason, *Probably* thinks Hidan could beat him.



Probably ?


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Turrin hates Deidara for some reason, Probably thinks Hidan could beat him.


Yup I do think Hidan could beat him; though Deidara could also beat Hidan. They are off a similar level, but they have extremely dissimilar styles of combat; leading to vastly different weaknesses and strengths.

I do not hate Deidara, I just think most of the people arguing for Deidara are hypocrites. Konan is lower-level, if not vastly lower-level than Deidara. Why? Because Konan got owned by Jiriaya. So were evaluating Konan on her lowest showing. However at the same time let's completely ignore Deidara's own showing of getting owned by the Ambush-Squad w/ Edo Buffs and back up, which is actually much worse than Konan's low showing.

Deidara's Jutsu are better than Konan's. Why? Because Konan only has the amount of paper that forms her body with Shikigami no Mai during the Jiriaya fight and she can't carry anymore around with her. However at the same time let's ignore Deidara's low end showings of clay reserves such as against Gaara, and instead give him the greatest amount he's ever been shown to carry around with him; hebi-sasuke fight amounts. 

Deidara will overwhelm Konan. Why? Because Deidara will be intelligent enough to instantly take flight on his fastest C1 mount and immediately open with his strongest C2/C3/C4 models, despite the fact that Deidara has started all his battles dicking around with C1, within short-range, &/or close to the ground. However at the same time Konan whose actually been shown to methodically plan around her enemies abilities and how to counter them, is going to start by lazily using some basic Kami Shuriken, allowing Deidara a free pass to the skies.

-------

This is not to mention the multiple lesser, but nearly as bad affronts to logical discussion, such as Paper breaths and is therefore susceptible to C4. And it only goes on from there


----------



## Rocky (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I do not hate Deidara, I just think most of the people arguing for Deidara are hypocrites. Konan is lower-level, if not vastly lower-level than Deidara. Why? Because Konan got owned by Jiriaya. So were evaluating Konan on her lowest showing. However at the same time let's completely ignore Deidara's own showing of getting owned by the Ambush-Squad w/ Edo Buffs and back up, which is actually much worse than Konan's low showing.



What are Konan's _high end_ feats though? Her feature fight against Obito wasn't even fair. She had secretly studied the dude's abilities and ran countless simulations on how to counter them, and walked into that fight with hundreds of billions of explosives prepared, and _still_ lost? How can somebody with detailed knowledge and such an enormous amount of preparation lose to such a one dimensional fighter?

I'd also like to point out that losing to a casual oil tech from Jiraiya isn't a better showing than losing to the ambush squad. Sai with only ink men > J-man with only oil imo, and Sai didn't even win alone.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What are Konan's _high end_ feats though? Her feature fight against Obito wasn't even fair. She had secretly studied the dude's abilities and ran countless simulations on how to counter them, and walked into that fight with hundreds of billions of explosives prepared, and _still_ lost?


Deidara's best showing is against Hebi-Sasuke. In that fight:

He studied Sharingan and had time to specifically developed counters to defeat it
He had the advantage of ambushing Sasuke
He had outside help from Tobi
He had the advantage of Sasuke aiming to capture him rather than kill him

On the other hand Konan had 


Studied Obito's abilities and time to specifically develop a counter to them
Obito was aiming to capture instead of kill

Konan had a-lot of time to amass her 600Bil explosive-tags, but Deidara had literally years to develop his Anti-Genjutsu-Eye, C4, etc...I realize that Konan's Paper-Ocean is less available in a myriad of different situations, than the counters Deidara developed, but if were talking about "fairness" that is irrelevant. Deidara actually had time to specifically master and invent Jutsu/abilities he felt were well suited to defeating his enemy; Konan only had about a weeks time (or less) to apply her existing abilities in a way that she felt could counter the enemy. 

Beyond that, Sasuke and Obito both aimed to capture, so that's pretty much a wash. However, Deidara also had the ambush and helped advantages. 

Given all of this Deidara's advantages are vastly less "fair" to the enemy than Konan's.

So I don't think you want to talk about "fairness", but more accurately accessibility. 600Bil Explosive tags aren't usually accessible to Konan. However we can still get many things out of that battle:


Konan can control 600Bil pieces of paper, ontop of using other jutsu
Konan can take control over paper over insane distance
Konan has the intelligence to meticulously calculate the exact timing explosions, run simulations, etc...

This still constitutes a much higher end performance than how she performed against Jiriaya, and also gives us some insight into what she could be capable off, even when 600bil pieces of paper are not on hand.



> How can somebody with detailed knowledge and such an enormous amount of preparation lose to such a one dimensional fighter?


Now this is hate. Obito is one of most difficult characters in the verse to actually put down. Deidara had years to develop specific jutsu/abilities to counter just Three-Tome, and he was met with limited success. Itachi had years to develop a way to kill Tobi, and his plan didn't push Obito as far as Konan's. Killer-B, Kakashi, Gai, and Naruto  had to fight for several chapters on end, and have a specific counter in the form of Kamui dimension bridging, just to get past Obito's Kamui. 

I get the point that your making that Konan had access to something she normally doesn't, but your going about making that point in a faulty way, and its never a point anyone ever disputed anyway.



> I'd also like to point out that losing to a casual oil tech from Jiraiya isn't a better showing than losing to the ambush squad. Sai with only ink men > J-man with only oil imo, and Sai didn't even win alone.


This is a ridiculous way to look at events. Jiriaya had all of his jutsu and abilities, and he selected the one that was most apt to countering Konan's abilities. If Jiriaya was just left with a random singular ability he'd loose or be outright raped by Konan, depending on the ability. Even if that ability was SM, as he'd lack anyway to harm Konan w/o his other abilities. 

Just like The ambush squad selected the abilities they thought most prudent when fighting Edo- Deidara and company, and they'd also loose 99% of the time if restricted to a random ability. 

-----------
The bottom line that we come to, is that people are still rating Konan on her low end showing, and not trying to find any kind of mid-way point between that and her higher end showings. While conversely they are rating Deidara on his best showings, and are not trying to find any mid-way point with his low end showing. Which is a blatant hypocrisy.

If someone wants to discuss low-end-showings than we should rate Deidara as he was against the ambush-squad, in which case Konan lower-end-showing is not nearly as bad. 

If someone wants to discuss high end showings, than Konan's blows Deidara's out of the water, for obvious reasons.

If someone wants to try and figure out a mid-way point for Deidara and Konan, than i'm cool with that too, and that would be an interesting discussion

If someone wants to say that mid-way point can't be found decisively in the case of Konan because we lack sufficient data, than fine, but that same person shouldn't than be saying Deidara wins or rapes Konan, because they are admitting they really don't know enough to make that assertion. 

These are the 4 ways we can discuss the match, "fairly". What is not fair is going off Konan's worse showing, while ignoring Deidara's, and going off his best showing, and than saying whelp Deidara rapes Konan.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 6, 2014)

konan wins because deidara cannot track her.

they both have bunshinjutsu, so this ultimately ends in his assassination


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yup I do think Hidan could beat him;



That goes beyond indefensible nonsense and penetrates deep into "That's retarded" territory.

Under no circumstances is Hidan beating Deidara--ever. Deidara could start grounded, with only a handful of C1, and within Hidan's slashing radius, and he would just casually dodge Hidan's attack and blow his limbs off like Shikamaru did. Deidara is much faster than Hidan (or Shikamaru, for that matter) and has more than enough firepower to destroy his body. Way more than enough.

Hidan is by far the weakest Akatsuki member, not counting Zetsu clones. How you arrived at the conclusion that he can beat someone Pain himself considered a rare talent in the shinobi world is fucking mystifying. Like some of your conclusions about this manga are just so fucking bizarre, but this one is somehow surprising even coming from you.



> though Deidara could also beat Hidan. They are off a similar level, but they have extremely dissimilar styles of combat; leading to vastly different weaknesses and strengths.



They aren't even close to the same level; Deidara could wipe out a thousand Hidans with one Jutsu and not even break a sweat.



> I do not hate Deidara, I just think most of the people arguing for Deidara are hypocrites. Konan is lower-level, if not vastly lower-level than Deidara. Why? Because Konan got owned by Jiriaya. So were evaluating Konan on her lowest showing. However at the same time let's completely ignore Deidara's own showing of getting owned by the Ambush-Squad w/ Edo Buffs and back up, which is actually much worse than Konan's low showing.



The difference is that Deidara has like 5 really good showings prior to the absolutely horrendous one, so it's really fucking obvious that the bad showing doesn't reflect his true potential.

In Konan's case, she really only had two significant showings--the one where she got paneled like a scrub, and the one where she lured a higher-level enemy into a unique trap that she prepared over an unspecified period of time...and still lost. What we gather from that is, under normal circumstances, Konan is fodder compared to the Sannin; under the best possible of circumstances, she is a severe inconvenience to Obito. These showings aren't drastically inconsistent; Konan's prep time (or lack thereof) makes a very evident difference in the threat level she poses to any given opponent.



> Deidara's Jutsu are better than Konan's. Why? Because Konan only has the amount of paper that forms her body with Shikigami no Mai during the Jiriaya fight and she can't carry anymore around with her.



That's not at all the reason. If you don't see why C3 and C4, and even C2, are better than a few dozen shitty explosive tags, then I don't even know what to tell you. 

600 *billion* of those motherfuckers and Konan still could not have wiped a village out of existence. Deidara with a single model could.



> However at the same time let's ignore Deidara's low end showings of clay reserves such as against Gaara, and instead give him the greatest amount he's ever been shown to carry around with him; hebi-sasuke fight amounts.



There's nothing wrong with assuming a full reserve of clay to be Deidara's standard gear; yes it's an ideal version of the character, but it's not like we don't do that with other characters.

Though even Gaara-fight Deidara had C3.



> Deidara will overwhelm Konan. Why? Because Deidara will be intelligent enough to instantly take flight on his fastest C1 mount and immediately open with his strongest C2/C3/C4 models, despite the fact that Deidara has started all his battles dicking around with C1, within short-range, &/or close to the ground.



Deidara would probably do that again if he doesn't know the nature of his opponent, but Konan isn't pinning him down when Team Gai and Team Kakashi couldn't catch the armless version. If she's particularly unlucky, she'll try that paper-wrapping bullshit and Deidara will swap in a suicide-bombing clay clone; Kakashi's Sharingan couldn't even track that shit so good fucking luck.



> However at the same time Konan whose actually been shown to methodically plan around her enemies abilities and how to counter them, is going to start by lazily using some basic Kami Shuriken, allowing Deidara a free pass to the skies.



Deidara has methodically planned around his enemy's abilities; he developed C4 to kill Itachi and to this day is the only character we have ever heard of developing a special eye ability to hard-counter Sharingan Genjutsu. He also figured out the nature of Gaara's Absolute Defense and exploited it perfectly, and he did this without any prior knowledge of Gaara's abilities.

But again, it's not like intelligence makes any difference whatsoever when the difference in power is so vast that Deidara can essentially point and click Konan off the battlefield in one move.



> -------
> 
> This is not to mention the multiple lesser, but nearly as bad affronts to logical discussion, such as Paper breaths and is therefore susceptible to C4. And it only goes on from there



No one said paper breathes; a few of us simply questioned Konan's ability to breathe in that state and whether or not she has to come out of it for that reason.



Turrin said:


> Deidara's best showing is against Hebi-Sasuke. In that fight:
> 
> He studied Sharingan and had time to specifically developed counters to defeat it
> He had the advantage of ambushing Sasuke
> ...



However, Sasuke had the one element that could neutralize all of Deidara's Jutsu and survived his last-ditch suicide explosion in what is still contended to be one of the worst ass-pulls Kishi ever came up with. Sharingan's ability to see the chakra inside Deidara's land mines and C4 was something else that Deidara was simply not aware of, and Sasuke took advantage of that ignorance. Calling Sasuke simply the better ninja would not be wrong, but don't act as if Deidara was the only one with advantages. _These two_ were truly on the same level--not fucking Hidan, for Christ's sake.

Obito's assistance was minimal; he planted the land mines, but those hardly made a difference and ended up being used by Sasuke to test Deidara's Raiton weakness, so that worked to Sasuke's advantage actually. The ambush failing is just sort of "Oh well"; not like Konan's ambush made a difference against Jiraiya, right? Failed ambushes aside, we still have their actual performances to go by.



> On the other hand Konan had
> 
> 
> Studied Obito's abilities and time to specifically develop a counter to them
> ...



What's really irrelevant is comparing the bomb trench to things like C4 and the anti-Genjutsu eye in the first place.

A proper analogy would look at the kind of yield Deidara can stockpile with the same amount of prep time, and since he can already trump it at the drop of a hat with C3, I don't even see the point of making that comparison.



> Deidara actually had time to specifically master and invent Jutsu/abilities he felt were well suited to defeating his enemy; Konan only had about a weeks time (or less) to apply her existing abilities in a way that she felt could counter the enemy.



We have no idea how long Konan spent printing those bombs. She could've taken weeks or months or even years to do it, in anticipation of one day killing Obito.



> Beyond that, Sasuke and Obito both aimed to capture, so that's pretty much a wash. However, Deidara also had the ambush and helped advantages.
> 
> Given all of this Deidara's advantages are vastly less "fair" to the enemy than Konan's.
> 
> ...



What a load of surgarcoated bullshit. All that really tells us is that Konan is a living bomb factory and can generate an enormous payload with prep time. But Deidara beats her at that game.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

@Nikushimi

I don't know why you put so much effort into your posts, when it's extremely clear that I don't really care about your opinion, unless I find it funny. Considering the length of this post, there is no way i'm bothering to read it, even if it does have funny nonsense in it, so yeah responding to me like that is pointless.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Nikushimi
> 
> I don't know why you put so much effort into your posts, when it's extremely clear that I don't really care about your opinion, unless I find it funny.



Because the conclusions you are trying to push are just so horrendously ill-conceived that even if you're too bull-headed to be persuaded of your errors, I still want to set the record straight for everybody else. The things you're saying are not exactly hard to refute, so eh, I may as well.



> Considering the length of this post, there is no way i'm bothering to read it, even if it does have funny nonsense in it, so yeah responding to me like that is pointless.



I think at this point, we have a new drinking game for the NBD: where each of us takes a shot every time Turrin claims he is done with the argument and that he doesn't care before he proceeds to make another piss-worthy attempt at rebutting anyway.

At this rate, I'd already be hammered.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

@Nikushimi

Huh, I never said I was done with the discussion of Deidara vs Konan, I said I'm not going to bother engaging you in a lengthy discussion, because your opinions and conclusions you draw are horrendous. So really the drinking game should be, drink every time Nikushimi's post is so terrible that, Turrin laughs his ass off at it. Than you can take a shot whenever the Niku's post is horrendous, but also so long that it's not worth even jokingly responding to his points. And chug a beer every time Niku's post is blantantly constructed around indirectly hyping Itachi through hyping a character Itachi defeated (or does that happen too often)

Just thought I'd help with constructing the drinking game


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Nikushimi
> 
> Huh, I never said I was done with the discussion of Deidara vs Konan, I said I'm not going to bother engaging you in a lengthy discussion, because your opinions and conclusions you draw are horrendous. Than you can take a shot whenever the Niku's post is horrendous, but also so long that it's not worth even jokingly responding to his points. And chug a beer every time Niku's post is blantantly constructed around indirectly hyping Itachi through hyping a character Itachi defeated (or does that happen too often)



You say that, but I'm the only one actually giving reasons and evidence and citing them in context without a personal spin.

Like, you may not agree with my conclusions, but you are doing your damndest to avoid actually saying why, while I am telling you exactly why what you are saying is wrong.



> So really the drinking game should be, drink every time Nikushimi's post is so terrible that, Turrin laughs his ass off at it.



Do you know any jokes other than simply repeating back what the other person just said?

Just wondering, because it seems like when you're trying to be funny, that's all you ever do.

Like you literally just ripped my joke and made it wordier and less eloquent.



> Just thought I'd help with constructing the drinking game



I think you've already had enough to drink.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> You say that, but I'm the only one actually giving reasons and evidence and citing them in context without a personal spin.
> 
> Like, you may not agree with my conclusions, but you are doing your damndest to avoid actually saying why, while I am telling you exactly why what you are saying is wrong.


Okay this will be fun i'll give you the same level of reasoning and logic you put into your posts.


That goes beyond indefensible nonsense and penetrates deep into "That's retarded" territory.

Under no circumstances is Deidara beating Hidan--ever. Deidara could start how he does every match grounded, with only a handful of C1, and within Hidan's slashing radius, and he would just casually be hit by Hidan's attack and be vodoo'd to death. Hidan is much faster than Deidara (or Asuma, for that matter) and has more than enough firepower to destroy his body. Way more than enough.

Deidara is by far the weakest Akatsuki member, not counting Zetsu clones. How you arrived at the conclusion that he can beat someone Pain himself hand selected is fucking mystifying.  Like some of your conclusions about this manga are just so fucking bizarre, but this one is somehow surprising even coming from you.

They aren't even close to the same level; Hidan could wipe out a thousand Deidaras with one Jutsu and not even break a sweat.

-------

There you go, that's how ridiculous your shit is, as it can apply to anyone. There is no substance, no reasoning, no nothing, it's just you wanking on one character and not acknowledging the strengths of the other. Which is why there is absolutely no point to even try to explain to you the faults with your post, because you didn't even try to construct a thoughtful post to begin with. 



> Do you know any jokes other than simply repeating back what the other person just said?


Do you know any jokes other than simply repeating back what the other person just said?

I couldn't resist, but in all seriousness, I wasn't joking, I was trying to think of a good drinking game.



> I think you've already had enough to drink.


I wish


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Okay this will be fun i'll give you the same level of reasoning and logic you put into your posts.



The thing is...you didn't. You used the exact same sentences, but you arbitrarily changed the subject, and of course that is going to completely compromise the factual integrity of the argument.

That's like saying,

"Ghandi was a pacifist."

and changing it to

"Hitler was a pacifist."


No, man.



> That goes beyond indefensible nonsense and penetrates deep into "That's retarded" territory.
> 
> Under no circumstances is Deidara beating Hidan--ever. Deidara could start how he does every match grounded, with only a handful of C1, and within Hidan's slashing radius, and he would just casually be hit by Hidan's attack and be vodoo'd to death. Hidan is much faster than Deidara (or Asuma, for that matter) and has more than enough firepower to destroy his body. Way more than enough.
> 
> ...





Nikushimi said:


> Do you know any jokes other than simply repeating back what the other person just said?
> 
> Just wondering, because it seems like when you're trying to be funny, that's all you ever do.
> 
> Like you literally just ripped my joke and made it wordier and less eloquent.



See, you did it again.



> There you go, that's how ridiculous your shit is, as it can apply to anyone.



It can't, because Hidan (3.5) is *not* faster than Deidara (4.5) or Asuma (4.5), so your entire strawman falls apart with the first pluck. You're so focused on trying to Mad Lib what I said in your desperate attempt to continue being the most unfunny person on the forums that you aren't actually bothering to check the facts.

And I have to call into question how you can call it ridiculous if you're failing to take even that most basic step.

The rest of what you typed is just word-substituted nonsense with no factual basis. Deidara is the weakest Akatsuki member? Hidan can beat a thousand Deidaras with one Jutsu? Pain considered Hidan a rare talent? None of that is true. 

It's only true as I said it, because Hidan IS the weakest Akatsuki member, Deidara CAN kill a thousand Hidans in one Jutsu, and Pain DID consider Deidara a rare talent. Just because switching Deidara and Hidan's names on-screen yields a preposterous result, doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the original statements.

Like you would have to be either completely ignorant of the databook statistics (which I know you aren't) or just deliberately choose to not acknowledge them like DaVizWiz. Not that Deidara has any shortage of feats proving he is faster than Hidan, anyway...



> There is no substance, no reasoning, no nothing, it's just you wanking on one character and not acknowledging the strengths of the other.



There is plenty of substance and reasoning, but you just keep mocking it with these rhetorical inversions that propose egregious factual errors. So you claim that I am making mistakes, but your only rejoinder to that has been to make your own deliberate mistakes. I made plenty of specific factual claims to reply to if you can muster the evidence to refute them, but you're choosing to not do that, which is not my fault. To give one example, Deidara's speed compared to Hidan's or Konan's was an easy fact to check and it would've been easy to prove false if it were false (which it isn't), and you didn't do that.



> Which is why there is absolutely no point to even try to explain to you the faults with your post, because you didn't even try to construct a thoughtful post to begin with.



You say there's no point, but you've dedicated just as much effort to being evasive and saying there's no point as would have been necessary to actually address my claims. Seems like you're just making an excuse.



> Do you know any jokes other than simply repeating back what the other person just said?
> 
> I couldn't resist, but in all seriousness, I wasn't joking, I was trying to think of a good drinking game.



Yeah and you ripped that idea from me and cobbled together an inferior articulation of the same thing, which is why I said what I said.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> See, you did it again.


"Like you literally just ripped my *joke*"

Glad you can admit that your post was a joke


----------



## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Location: Sand Village
> Distance: 100 meters, both of them on ground
> Intel: Manga and Anime
> Mindset: Kill or be Killed
> ...




By portrayal, Konan was above Deidara in matter of rank in the Akatsuki.  So I'm going with Konan, if anyone wants to debate me for my points, just quote and I'll be happy to a bilge.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> "Like you literally just ripped my *joke*"
> 
> Glad you can admit that your post was a joke



You used to actually come back with relevant arguments. Now all you seem to do is regurgitate your own butchered imitations of other peoples' arguments with no regard for accuracy to the source material.

You're not even an honest troll anymore. You're pathetic.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> By portrayal, Konan was above Deidara in matter of rank in the Akatsuki.  So I'm going with Konan, if anyone wants to debate me for my points, just quote and I'll be happy to a bilge.



Deidara spams C1 and Konan does what.

Deidara fires C2 and Konan does what.

Deidara drops C3 and Konan does what.

Deidara scatters C4 and Konan does what.

Deidara blows himself up and Konan does what.


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2014)

I like how when konan study the other guy's abilities it's an fair, but when itachi does it for 10 years, and come up
with terrible plans that ends up with failure most of the time it's just to show how genius he is.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2014)

I was speed scrolling through the essays, and I saw the name, "Ghandi."  

Everyone should probably stop when that name gets drug into a ninja debate.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 7, 2014)

Out of curiosity Turrin, how does Hidan reach Deidara in the sky?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

^
Let me answer for him.

Either ;

a) Deidara will dick around, and won't fly right away and somehow get killed.
b) He'll only fly 2 inches off the ground.
c) He'll come down for no reason get killed.


Its funny how Turrin takes Deidara's IC mindset this far but doesn't treat other characters the same way.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I like how when konan study the other guy's abilities it's an fair, but when itachi does it for 10 years, and come up
> with terrible plans that ends up with failure most of the time it's just to show how genius he is.



No one said it's unfair to give them prep. But if that's the case, then both parties should get equal prep; it's not fair to give one prep time and deny the other one the same.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I was speed scrolling through the essays, and I saw the name, "Ghandi."
> 
> Everyone should probably stop when that name gets drug into a ninja debate.



Namaste.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> Let me answer for him.
> 
> Either ;
> ...



Pretty much hit the nail on the fucking head (as far as Turrin's reasoning is concerned, anyway).

Deidara can only lose to Hidan if he is trying to.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 7, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Out of curiosity Turrin, how does Hidan reach Deidara in the sky?


He doesn't, but Deidara does not start in the sky. He starts the on the ground, and he always starts with C1, close to the enemy. Hidan managed to draw blood from Asuma extremely quickly, and Asuma is a more skilled CQC fighter than Deidara (and more well equipped with trench knives, and had Shikka as back up). So I see no reason why Hidan would be unable to draw blood from Deidara and once he has that the match is effectively over, even if Deidara than flies high into the skies. Now of course I could also see Deidara escaping in time to fly away, depending on conditions and how he acts, some of the times, but I don't see him being able to do so consistently. 

One should also keep in mind that Hidan also has a number of tricks that Kishi didn't have a chance to put in the manga, like his scythe extending and even being able to multiply. He also had some weird ninja tool we never got to see in action, that he hid under his cloak, as can be seen here:
limits


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

^

Why would Deidara stay on the ground and physically engage with Hidan ? 

His first instinct against Sasuke and Team Gai was to get away from them, not stay and fight them in CQC.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> 
> Why would Deidara stay on the ground and physically engage with Hidan ?
> 
> His first instinct against Sasuke and Team Gai was to get away from them, not stay and fight them in CQC.


No his first instinct against Sasuke was to land on the ground. Than his second instinct was to stand there. Than his third instinct was to use C1. Only after nearly being fodderized if not for Tobi warning him, by Sasuke's Shunshin did he attempt to run away.

Against Team-Gai he had no fucking arms, so it's laughable to use that as an example.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No his first instinct against Sasuke was to land on the ground.


Because Shinobi generally talk before confrontations. We ignore such mechanics in BD.



> Than his second instinct was to stand there.


You expected him to run around while talking ? That'd seem retarded.



> Than his third instinct was to use C1.


After putting a distance between himself and Sasuke, yes. 



> Only after nearly being fodderized if not for Tobi warning him, by Sasuke's Shunshin did he attempt to run away.


Actually no. When Sasuke made his move, he immediately ran out of Sasuke's striking range and prepared a counter attack. 



> Against Team-Gai he had no fucking arms, so it's laughable to use that as an example.



If he is as dumb as you claim him to be, he'd stay and challange Gai to a taijutsu duel.


if Deidara could pull off a ground encounter against Sasuke, who is significantly faster than Hidan, then there is absolutely no reason why he can't do the same against Hidan as well.
But is Hidan fast enough to avoid Deidara's C1, that is the real question.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No his first instinct against Sasuke was to land on the ground. Than his second instinct was to stand there. Than his third instinct was to use C1. Only after nearly being fodderized if not for Tobi warning him, by Sasuke's Shunshin did he attempt to run away.
> 
> Against Team-Gai he had no fucking arms, so it's laughable to use that as an example.



Actually just to correct you here Deidara's first instinct against Hebi Sasuke was to attack from above, his second instinct was to land and all that Jazz follows afterwords.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because Shinobi generally talk before confrontations. We ignore such mechanics in BD.
> You expected him to run around while talking ? That'd seem retarded.


No I expect him to be on the ground and stay there until the enemy starts attacking. Not immediately take flight to great heights, as he's never done in the manga cannon.



> After putting a distance between himself and Sasuke, yes.


He was still within short-range and close to the ground



> Actually no. When Sasuke made his move, he immediately ran out of Sasuke's striking range and prepared a counter attack.


Way to move the goal post. I said he would stay near the ground and use C1, at first. Now your trying to argue on the basis that he didn't stay within range of Sasuke's sword. He didn't try to fly away until he almost died from Sasuke's second Shunshin blitz (would have died if not for Tobi); that's what happened in the manga-cannon, no ifs ands or buts about it.



Bonly said:


> Actually just to correct you here Deidara's first instinct against Hebi Sasuke was to attack from above, his second instinct was to land and all that Jazz follows afterwords.


Fair enough, but he had the advantage of being able to ambush Sasuke there, and it was still a C1 attack Deidara launched while coming close to (and eventually on) the ground.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> He doesn't, but Deidara does not start in the sky. He starts the on the ground, and he always starts with C1, close to the enemy. Hidan managed to draw blood from Asuma extremely quickly, and Asuma is a more skilled CQC fighter than Deidara (and more well equipped with trench knives, and had Shikka as back up). So I see no reason why Hidan would be unable to draw blood from Deidara and once he has that the match is effectively over, even if Deidara than flies high into the skies. Now of course I could also see Deidara escaping in time to fly away, depending on conditions and how he acts, some of the times, but I don't see him being able to do so consistently.
> 
> One should also keep in mind that Hidan also has a number of tricks that Kishi didn't have a chance to put in the manga, like his scythe extending and even being able to multiply. He also had some weird ninja tool we never got to see in action, that he hid under his cloak, as can be seen here:
> _Kakashi_



The obvious difference between Asuma and Deidara is that Deidara can fly to break away from grounded close-quarters-combat if he chooses, while Asuma cannot. Deidara is a long-range type, which would make his approach fundamentally different from Asuma's--especially when his enemy is putting pressure on CQC. It took Hidan quite a while before he managed to get Asuma's blood, anyway; it didn't just happen with the first attack.

Granted that Asuma is more skilled than Deidara, Shikamaru is also less skilled and far slower than both of them, yet he was able to dodge Hidan's blitz and avoid the same fate as his sensei. This bought him enough time to blast Hidan to pieces, and that's something Deidara is far better equipped to do.

So yeah, Deidara avoids Hidan no problem and then blows him to kingdom come.


----------



## Krippy (Oct 7, 2014)

Konan blows him to shit with high difficulties.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No I expect him to be on the ground and stay there until the enemy starts attacking. Not immediately take flight to great heights, as he's never done in the manga cannon.



Link removed




> He was still within short-range and close to the ground


With the capability of moving out his opponents range, why does this matter ? Deidara doesn't CQC nor has the capacity. So when someone closes on him, his first instinct to put a distance between himself and his opponent. And if his opponent is too fast for him, he can use a similar tactic he used against Sasuke. 

In this particular thread, he is up against someone slower than Sasuke. Also someone who doesn't have raiton affinity to easily counter his C1. 
Worst off all, his opponent is restricted to CQC only.
The fact that you even entertain the possiblity of Deidara losing this shows how corrupted your thought process is.



> Way to move the goal post. I said he would stay near the ground and use C1, at first. Now your trying to argue on the basis that he didn't stay within range of Sasuke's sword. He didn't try to fly away until he almost died from Sasuke's second Shunshin blitz (would have died if not for Tobi); that's what happened in the manga-cannon, no ifs ands or buts about it.


And I'll say he'll hop on a bird and fly away : Link removed
Which one of us is right ?


----------



## Turrin (Oct 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Link removed


Grimjow proceeds to show me a picture of Deidara landing in point blank range of Gaara, and proceeds to stay there until Gaara attacks, as if this is not supporting exactly what I said 



> With the capability of moving out his opponents range, why does this matter ? Deidara doesn't CQC nor has the capacity. So when someone closes on him, his first instinct to put a distance between himself and his opponent. And if his opponent is too fast for him, he can use a similar tactic he used against Sasuke.


He puts distance between them in the sense that he isn't right next to there sword. He does not put a massive distance that can't be overcome with a leaping, jumping, or shunshin attack, to once again render Deidara having to defend the enemy's CQC. Literally the only time Deidara has ever put that amount of distance between himself and his enemy, was against Sasuke, and that was after already giving Sasuke 2 chances to attack him in CQC.



> In this particular thread, he is up against someone slower than Sasuke. Also someone who doesn't have raiton affinity to easily counter his C1.
> Worst off all, his opponent is restricted to CQC only.
> The fact that you even entertain the possiblity of Deidara losing this shows how corrupted your thought process is.


In this thread he's up against Konan, who is not restricted to CQC.

Against Hidan, Hidan hasn't shown any long-range abilities. So it depends on if Deidara can avoid being scratched until he both decides to fly far away, and actually manages to take flight. Against someone who managed to scratch Asuma extremely quickly, while Asuma is both more equipped than Deidara to defend Hidan's scythe attacks, as well as had the back up of Shikkamaru, it is hardly a mystery why I think some of the time Hidan will manage to draw blood from Deidara. 



> And I'll say he'll hop on a bird and fly away :


If he acts like he did against Gaara, I.E coming into point blank range of Hidan, he's going to have his blood drawn easily. Literally that is the worst way Deidara could approach fighting Hidan.

And let's also examine the Gaara vs Deidara fight closer. He evades Gaara's attack with a pre-made bird (which he won't have at the start of the fight with Hidan, unless were giving him prior prep), but he stills stays within pointblank range of Gaara:
Link removed

He doesn't fly even a mid distance away until Gaara starts pressuring him with the vast volume of sand he raised from the desert. 

So once again we see Deidara dicking around w/ C1 and staying close to the enemy (even coming into point blank range at the start of the fight), until he's literally pressured to the point where he's forced to gain distance or die. Not only does that mean Hidan will have ample time to take blood, but he'll probably have even more time than most shinobi, before Deidara takes flight to absurd distances because Deidara wouldn't acknowledge being scratch as something so dire to force him to run away.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Grimjow proceeds to show me a picture of Deidara landing in point blank range of Gaara, and proceeds to stay there until Gaara attacks, as if this is not supporting exactly what I said


Deidara thought he infiltrated the village. He landed because he was expecting to find Gaara indoors. Its not like he spotted Gaara and then landed next to him. Gaara found him instead.
Learn to read 




> He puts distance between them in the sense that he isn't right next to there sword. He does not put a massive distance that can't be overcome with a leaping, jumping, or shunshin attack, to once again render Deidara having to defend the enemy's CQC. Literally the only time Deidara has ever put that amount of distance between himself and his enemy, was against Sasuke, and that was after already giving Sasuke 2 chances to attack him in CQC.


Grasping @ straws.

Most people retaliate when they are attacked in CQC, Deidara backs off.
That is enough evidence to conclude that Deidara won't attempt to fight in close quarters but rather he will attempt to strike after he puts a safe distance between himself and his opponent.



> In this thread he's up against Konan, who is not restricted to CQC.


I know what this thread is about. We are talking about something else now aren't we ?



> Against Hidan, Hidan hasn't shown any long-range abilities. So it depends on if Deidara can avoid being scratched until he both decides to fly far away, and actually manages to take flight. Against someone who managed to scratch Asuma extremely quickly, while Asuma is both more equipped than Deidara to defend Hidan's scythe attacks, as well as had the back up of Shikkamaru, it is hardly a mystery why I think some of the time Hidan will manage to draw blood from Deidara.


Asuma got scratched because he stood his ground and fought Hidan in CQC.
No one here is arguing that Deidara will out do Hidan in taijutsu, because Deidara isn't restricted to CQC like Asuma is. 
I am not even sure why you even compare Asuma vs Hidan to Deidara vs Hidan tbh. 
Asuma and Deidara have completely different skillset and are effective in completely different roles and ranges.
Deidara doesn't need to defend against Hidan's scythe, he just needs to run the fuck away from it as he IC would do.



> If he acts like he did against Gaara, I.E coming into point blank range of Hidan, he's going to have his blood drawn easily.


No he won't, because Hidan isn't fast enough to tag Deidara, and as we've seen in both encounters, Deidara is fast enough to go to a safe distance, or just pull out his bird and hop on it, and leave Hidan's effective range completely.



> Literally that is the worst way Deidara could approach fighting Hidan.


He won't. That is OOC and outside Deidara's capability.



> And let's also examine the Gaara vs Deidara fight closer. He evades Gaara's attack with a pre-made bird (which he won't have at the start of the fight with Hidan, unless were giving him prior prep),


Are you suggesting that deidara doesn't have the foot speed to get away from Hidan ? 

Also Deidara can create that bird pretty easily : Link removed Link removed

Both of those instances were much more dire than simply trying to get away from Hidan. So whether the bird is prepped or not is irrelevant.



> but he stills stays within pointblank range of Gaara:
> Link removed



Thats not point blank range, and Deidara @ that point had seen the range of Gaara's sand and evaded it without problems.
 Plus, they were talking. Like I suggested earlier, such mechanics are overlooked in BD. There is no plot here, so characters won't chit chat during fights.



> He doesn't fly even a mid distance away until Gaara starts pressuring him with the vast volume of sand he raised from the desert.


I don't know if you are making a statement or questioning something here, but if its the latter, you just answered your self. Deidara arranged the distance between him and Gaara depending on Gaara's arsenal. The moment Gaara brough the big guns, Deidara put a greater distance.



> [
> So once again we see Deidara dicking around w/ C1 and staying close to the enemy (even coming into point blank range at the start of the fight), until he's literally pressured to the point where he's forced to gain distance or die



That is an extremely false accusation. I've already adressed why he was next to Gaara in  the first place and why he wasn't @ point blank range later.



> Not only does that mean Hidan will have ample time to take blood, but he'll probably have even more time than most shinobi, before Deidara takes flight to absurd distances because Deidara wouldn't acknowledge being scratch as something so dire to force him to run away.



Unless you have evidence that Hidan is faster than Sasuke, then there is nothing to debate here.

Because Hidan would have to be faster than Sasuke to be able to catch up to Deidara and cock block all of his attempts @ putting a distance between them. 
And if that was the case, then we wouldn't be debating it, because then it would mean that Hidan would be fast enough to blitz Deidara before Deidara can do anything and would logically kill him too while he was @ it.


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## Turrin (Oct 8, 2014)

@Grimmjowsensei

I'm not going to bother going point for point, and instead i'll present the facts.

This was the distance between Asuma and Hidan when Hidan scratched him:



This is a greater distance than what Deidara allowed there to be between himself and Gaara at the start of their fight:


This is roughly the same distance as what Deidara  allowed there to between himself and Naruto/Kakashi at the start of their fight:


And as an extra bonus, he was just sitting there chilling

This is a greater distance than what Deidara allowed there to be between himself and Sasuke at the start of their fight (even after seeing Sasuke's Shunshin blitz):


This is a vastly greater distance than what Deidara allowed there to be between himself and the ambush-squad:


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What this means is, that Deidara will undoubtably be within the same range of Hidan's scythe as Asuma was in the beginning of the match. So the fight is going to come down to whether Deidara can defend against Hidan's scythe to the point of not getting scratched. 

However we have point blank statistics from Kishimoto that tell us Asuma is more equipped to defend against Hidan's scythe than Deidara. We also know Asuma is more well equipped in the literal sense of the term, due to his Trench Knives. 

Yet Hidan still managed to scratch him at that range, even while at the time time being harassed by Shikkamaru's shadow. And Hidan did so extremely quickly.

So the chance of Deidara escaping w/o a scratch are slim to none existent, based on cold hard-facts.

----------------
You can bring up Deidara evaded Sasuke, but he actually did not evade Sasuke. Sasuke's first blow targeted Tobi:



His second blow was thwarted by Tobi warning Deidara that it was coming:



So that's off the table, as a counter argument, not that it's even relevant to begin with. Hidan's CQC style is not based around outmaneuvering his enemies with speed to land a fatal blow, his style is based on using tricky weapon designed to widen the scope of his attacks and make it difficult for the enemy to evade without being at least scratched. This is detailed by Shikkamaru:

_S: That guy's huge weapon...
S: ...has three scythes attached to it
S: From the configuration, rather than being a weapon designed to inflict grave damage on a opponent, it's intended to widen his attack range.
S: Anyway, it's designed just to hit the opponent and make, whether it be large or small, some kind of external wound._

Therefore, Hidan's ability to scratch the enemy is not dependent on speed. Something that is clearly illustrated when he scratches Asuma who is indeed the same speed tier as Deidara, and once again more equipped to defend himself, as well as having back up from Shikkamaru. 

In-fact Hidan wasn't even going all out against Asuma, as Kishimoto states in the DB Hidan's scythe is actually even trickier, he just didn't have time to show it:

_Kishimoto, "I originally planned the scythe to have a lot of tricks, but I didn't have time to show all of them..."_

Given this the counter argument that Deidara will just keep evading Hidan's attacks until he decides to fly completely out of their range, doesn't hold up to what is actually presented in the source material. 

-------------

Deidara can win, but it depends on the conditions of the match, and how Deidara chooses to fight. The former I can't speak to as we're talking outside of a typical NBD match, however as far as the latter goes, Deidara is impulsive and rash in a way that leads to him making poor decisions or entering a battle ill equipped, as stated by the author himself in the DB:

Kishimoto, _"Also, ever since his early days as an artist, it is in Deidara’s nature to be impulsive; impulse governs his behavior."_

And this is illustrated by how he attacked the Ichibi Jinchuuriki in the desert low on clay, how he attacked the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki missing an army and even lower on clay, when said Jinchuuriki had back up, and also in how he fucked around against the ambush-squad.

In a fight where one mistake (or one scratch), spells defeated for Deidara, that does not bode well for how Deidara would approach this match or his chances of playing it smart enough to avoid being scratch at the beginning of the fight. 

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Considering all of this, I don't think Hidan beating Deidara is outlandish at all. In-fact I consider it nearly guaranteed in certain scenario's and at least feasible in others. Hidan defeating Asuma so easily is also debatably a better accomplishment than anything Deidara has done outside of when he's had heavy situational advantages as he had against Gaara or direct outside help, as was the case against Sanbi, Sasuke, and even the Ambush-Squad, with the latter of those events still resulting in a downright awful performance on Deidara's part.

That's pretty much all I have to say to you on the issue and I don't expect anything to change my opinion on the issue, so don't expect me to respond to you beyond this, unless a specifically interesting point is raised.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2014)

I briefly skimmed through that and nothing you said adressess any of my points.


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## The Undying (Oct 8, 2014)

While I'm normally inclined to favor Deidara's abilities over Konan's, the way his rash in-character mindset typically affects his performance always leads me to believe he's among Akatsuki's lower tiers. On the other hand, I haven't seen enough from Konan to argue with confidence that she's above Deidara's league.

I'm about 50/50 on this one.


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## joshhookway (Oct 8, 2014)

Lol, Deidara beat Team Gai without arms, solo'ed Gaara in a desert, solo'ed a bijuu and an island and matched Sasuke in speed and would have killed him many times if it weren't for a natural disadvantage.

Meanwhile, Konan was having problems with dogs and got one paneled by Jiraiya.


Deidara is portrayed on a whole different level.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> I'm not going to bother going point for point, and instead i'll present the facts.
> 
> ...



You notice a pattern in all of those examples you just gave?

Deidara didn't get helplessly blitzed, or even scratched in any of them.

Good game.


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