# Explaining Kakashi vs Obito



## Turrin (Jun 26, 2013)

Seem to me a-lot of people are coming to strange conclusions like Kakashi > or = Obito, so I thought I'd spend some time explaining what actually went down and how it was a team effort that allowed Kakashi to eventually reach the point of defeating Obito. So let's go back to the beginning:

At the start of the fight Kakashi only knew the basics off Obito's S/T Jutsu. It was only through the combined attacks of himself *&* Naruto (plus some luck) that his Kunai ended up scratching Obito's mask, which is what made him hypothesize a possible connection between his Kamui and Obito's S/T Jutsu. From there it was only with Naruto's help that Kakashi was able to test this hypothesis and confirm it. This is important because without this data Kakashi would not have been able to counter Obito's Kamui.

Another important thing to understand is that Kakashi actually ran out of Stamina and was beaten by Obito & only survived because Naruto saved him. Kakashi also saved Naruto's ass in the battle too, so i'm not trying to belittle the guy, but just showing why the battle should be understood as a team battle with both sides helping each other. 

Also the first instance in which Kakashi gained the opportunity to defeat Obito was created through the direct help of Naruto forcing Obito to phase and the only reason Kakashi was still even moving around at this point in the battle is because Kurama handed Kakashi chakra.

So one has to understand that while Kakashi has been impressive in this battle, Naruto's role can't be stress enough as Kakashi would  be long since defeated and killed off by Obito, if not for Naruto's help. 

Moving onto recent chapters. People need to understand that Obito warping Kakashi to face him 1v1 in his dimension was a planned move. This at first seems stupid, but you have to look at it from Obito's perspective. He had to separate Kakashi from Naruto, because he already knew the two of them together possessed the ability to defeat him. So it was Naruto's presence who was aiding Kakashi with chakra boosts and combo attacks, that forced Obito to fight in his dimension, and again shows how this is a product of a team effort. 

A-lot of people have also questioned why Obito agreed to fight Kakashi sparing match style rather than going back to Dojutsu hax & I also struggled with this too, but I believe the manga does provide an explanation for this. Do to the fact that Kakashi had Kyuubi chakra recharges available to him again through Naruto, he could keep fighting back and forth with Obito for an excessively long time & even Rinnegan techs wouldn't get past the defense of Kamui. This is why Kakashi tells Obito he doesn't want to fight forever. After that Kakashi makes the sign for a sparring match, this is something Obito recognizes as revealed via flashbacks, and he whether swayed by his emotions or not agrees to this sparring match. 

Basically the whole point of that exchange was so that both of them essentially agreed to settle this based on a physical CQC sparring, rather than continue to use their Dojutsu hax against each other. Hence why they stop using Genjutsu or any Dojutsu techs after making the duel sign. 

In the end both stab each other and Kakashi comes out better off than Obito, due to Rarikiri Kunai > Black Rod in damaging power. And here we are.

So again while Kakashi deserves a great deal of praise, getting to this point was not just Kakashi's effort, but a team effort between him and Naruto, that forced Obito into this situation. I like Kakashi and all, but he's certainly not as strong as even MS Obito, there is a major difference between them and that's Obito's Hashi DNA allows him to spam his MS, while Kakashi tires out much quicker. We directly saw this difference in stamina lead to Kakashi's defeat and needing to be saved/recharged by Naruto earlier in the battle, so we know Kishi considers this to be something still separating the two Ninja.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AlphaReaver (Jun 27, 2013)

Yes. This is true, but the anti Tobito crew are trying their best to dehype Obito.

I personally feel Obito went the Forehead Scratch/Sasori getting Impaled route.


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## JPongo (Jun 27, 2013)

Hopefully Kishi meant it to be like that.

You gotta admit though that Kakashi's mastery of the sharingan is impressive.


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## danshad (Jun 27, 2013)

I really like the explanation. 
But considering that Obito/Tobi was the main villain in the manga for the past few years, I would have liked to see some more action.


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## Kaiser (Jun 27, 2013)

Kakashi didn't have Kyubi's chakra at all though. Remember he lost it just before entering Kamui's dimension for some reasons. Not only that, but it's also safe to assume that Naruto can't control said chakra from the other dimension since the other dimension has no link with the normal world. After the tenpenchi, Naruto lost it's power and alliance shinobi as well. So every thing should lead us to the conclusion that Kakashi never had Kyubi's chakra as a support during that fight. Nice analysis though


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2013)

ahahaha someone is not happy with the outcome. 


No one is saying Kakashi > Obito.

Kakashi > Obito with MS restricted is all.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 27, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ahahaha someone is not happy with the outcome.
> 
> 
> No one is saying Kakashi > Obito.
> ...



Fixed.


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## Trebla Sless enitsraw (Jun 27, 2013)

after reading it a second time, i took it as a 'known' unstated agreement that they would try to best each other therough not ninjutsu, but mostle skill, wit, and physical means. obito kinda had the feeling of wanting to prove through taijutsu and weak ninjutsu they only used as kids, that he was better than kakashi.

 and like you pointed out turrin, kakashi got healed quite a few times, but obito has been busting out jutsu, jin conttrol (which controlling full biju must have taken alot of chakra), bakufu ranbu, CONSTANT kamui, juubi control, taijutsu in conjunction with kamui ect. so basically, as most don't see (i was pissed when i first read the chap, but i was drunk also), is that obito, although he has a shitload of chakra, doesn't have infinite chakra, the man got worn down, made some simple mistakes (along with his state of mind) and bested fair and square. 
it's like me playin someone i could normally beat in a fighting game, after i played online ALL day, and my thumbs are sore and tired, and i get beat, when i normally would stomp.

TBH, taking everything me and you both said into account (and perhaps being a bit drunk...hehe), i kinda LIKE the exchange, it puts it into perspective, thats for sure. you can see even in the genjutsu,  just how tired obito really is.

also, just because kakashi doesn't have kyubi's chakra cloak doesn't mean anything, he's still rejuvenated physically at least somewhat

I POST THIS IN ANOTHER THREAD:
obito is more than likely tired as FUCK to be honest, look at everything he's done, his chakra capacity is off the charts. controlling the full biju jin, can you imagine how much chakra that alone took? 

him and kakashi agreed to a shinobi spar, with weak jutsu they used when they were younger, in order to prove himself better than kakashi.  he underestimated kakashi, underestimated the damage he had recieved when he did, slipped up cause he was tired, and got owned.

actually, this is where he slipped up, again, he didn't think kakashi would get the rebound that fast again, bottom panel\

kakashi had set his resolve to the max, and came at him with a vengence, and very bloodthirsty, show here. 

and quite frankly, im proud as fuck of kakashi, he manned up like alot of chars in the manga wouldn't/didn't.

even in BLEACH, we see just how much resolve can effect a fight to the death. you lose resolve (like obito was beginning to), ya lose power behind your movement and attacks, and eventually lose the fight


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## Tre_azam (Jun 27, 2013)

obito was tired, worn out as fuck and had a hole in his chest. 

Are people forgetting hes been fighting since the start of the war against multiple top tiers without rest while kakashi has had his health/chakra restored numerous times.

kakashi has no chance against a fresh obito.


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## Trebla Sless enitsraw (Jun 27, 2013)

basically that, i doubt kakashi would be taking a fresh obito, although thats no excuse for a final villain canidate. i would love to see now itachi v.s. kakashi, or obito v.s. itachi, i say the king wins both. welp, the sauce it is then as final villain i believe. not ULTIMATE villain, but FINAL villain.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2013)

Oga Tatsumi said:


> Fixed.



TBH so far Obito hasn't used any rinnegan ability aside from the otherpath powers(black rod bijuu binding chains). He implied he could use Human paths power too but hasn't.

So in this fight against Kakashi, he wasn't lacking anything Rinnegan related.

And if you want to get too technical, then I might say "Kakashi with 90% of his arsenal restricted", because he hasn't used anything other than taijutsu and a raiton induced kunai.

I'd say Kakashi was restricted more than Obito in regards to their arsenal outside MS.




Tre_azam said:


> obito was tired, worn out as fuck and had a hole in his chest.
> 
> Are people forgetting hes been fighting since the start of the war against multiple top tiers without rest while kakashi has had his health/chakra restored numerous times.
> 
> kakashi has no chance against a fresh obito.



Hole in the chest was genjutsu. Read the manga 

Also Kakashi was equally worn out. So no argument here.


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## MS81 (Jun 27, 2013)

both of them didn't use any of their power ups, so why are guys killing Kakashi's vibe?

he lost Kyuubi shroud(while Kakashi still has Sharingan) but Obito still have mokuton powers and Rinnegan.


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## Sniffers (Jun 27, 2013)

Sure it took a combined effort for Obito's Kamui to be figured out, but once it was, Kakashi has shown he can defeat Obito by himself. At least without the Edo Pains. Knowledge is the key here. 

The Rinnegan is also considered extremely hax, but Kakashi claimed he had strategies to deal its abilities. Knowledge is a massive factor in Naruto and it basically makes tier rankings meaningless (to some degree). Hashirama may have been the strongest shinobi ever, but even he will fall (in theory) to Koto Amatsukami or Tsukuyomi if he doesn't know not to look. Power is great, but it's also about skill, knowledge and the situation. Naturally plot is the main drive: Kakashi was going to win.​


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Sure it took a combined effort for Obito's Kamui to be figured out, but once it was, Kakashi has shown he can defeat Obito by himself. At least without the Edo Pains. Knowledge is the key here. ​



Except even after Kakashi had knowledge on Kamui Obito defeated him requiring Naruto to save Kakashi and refuel his stamina.



> The Rinnegan is also considered extremely hax, but Kakashi claimed he had strategies to deal its abilities. Knowledge is a massive factor in Naruto and it basically makes tier rankings meaningless (to some degree). Hashirama may have been the strongest shinobi ever, but even he will fall (in theory) to Koto Amatsukami or Tsukuyomi if he doesn't know not to look. Power is great, but it's also about skill, knowledge and the situation. Naturally plot is the main drive: Kakashi was going to win.


Knowledge does make a difference, which is part of the reason why it was so valuable for Kakashi to have Naruto's aid in gaining that knowledge. However it seems like your overrating knowledge a bit to me, 



Blake said:


> Kakashi didn't have Kyubi's chakra at all though. Remember he lost it just before entering Kamui's dimension for some reasons. Not only that, but it's also safe to assume that Naruto can't control said chakra from the other dimension since the other dimension has no link with the normal world. After the tenpenchi, Naruto lost it's power and alliance shinobi as well. So every thing should lead us to the conclusion that Kakashi never had Kyubi's chakra as a support during that fight. Nice analysis though


You don't seem to get it, even w/o the shroud Kakashi was running off Kyuubi chakra, as he had run out of his own stamina many chapters ago and had to be saved and recharged by Naruto.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> ahahaha someone is not happy with the outcome.
> 
> 
> *No one is saying Kakashi > Obito.*
> ...


You'd be surprised.​


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## Sniffers (Jun 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Except even after Kakashi had knowledge on Kamui Obito defeated him requiring Naruto to save Kakashi and refuel his stamina.


Kakashi was mentally struggling at that point and he also had zero killer intent. Once he had his resolve, he beat Obito.


Turrin said:


> Knowledge does make a difference, which is part of the reason why it was so valuable for Kakashi to have Naruto's aid in gaining that knowledge. However it seems like your overrating knowledge a bit to me.


With knowledge Kakashi won. Without he would've (most likely) lost. It's not really an overstatement to call that a massive difference in my opinion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> You'd be surprised.



I think people are entertaining the possibility that Kakashi, with knowledge on Kamui, could perhaps sneak a bunshin in Kamui dimension and get a cheap shot on Tobi when he phases away.


That doesn't mean Kakashi is stronger than Obito.
Through Kamui, Kakashi has access to Obito's hiding place and has a chance to exploit it. It gives him an advantage against Obito which other people don't have. It is like a chink in Obito's armor.

In overall, Obito is much stronger though. Especially when you consider he has access to Izanagi.


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## DanielTimothy (Jun 27, 2013)

Sorry to hate but this chapter has broken me. Obito should've warped back and slumped kakashi's dead body at the feet of Minato, Gai and Naruto like "sup sensei". It would've been Obito's decent into darkness, the point of no point of return and confirmed him as the final villain. 

Reasons I am butthurt about this chapter:
1. Obito in my opinion has more solid motives than Madara. Yes I buy the whole 'you let rin die' speech, people do crazy things when they're in love. Also he is much more interesting, the parallels with Naruto in personality when they were younger he served as an anti naruto. And a lesson for Naruto that some people can become beyond saving.
2. Obito has so many hax jutsu even without phasing and no stamina him losing to Kakashi makes no sense.

But there has been so much stupid, rushed shit going on and too many people turning good its a mess. Makes me question why the hell I'm still reading a shonen. I understand its supposed to be silly and over the top, but the past few chapters feel like there are no stakes and its all moving at lightspeed.


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Kakashi was mentally struggling at that point and he also had zero killer intent.
> .


Oh please if mentally struggling is a handicap, than Obito also had that handicap, whether he tries to play it cool or not. Kakashi lost in that instance primarily due to the fact that he had run out of chakra/stamina and could no longer keep up with Obito. That's why Kakashi needed the Kurama recharge to keep using Kamui right after that.



> With knowledge Kakashi won. Without he would've (most likely) lost. It's not really an overstatement to call that a massive difference in my opinion


No with knowledge Kakashi also lost and had to be saved/recharged by Naruto. Kakashi won because he had help from Naruto in both obtaining the knowledge, saving him, and recharging his chakra. Additionally he won because Obito agreed to a sparring match in Box Land, where he couldn't use Kamui.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think people are entertaining the possibility that Kakashi, with knowledge on Kamui, could perhaps sneak a bunshin in Kamui dimension and get a cheap shot on Tobi when he phases away.
> 
> 
> That doesn't mean Kakashi is stronger than Obito.
> ...


The problem is Obito can counter Kakashi's attempts to Kamui something, we saw that with GM. So If  Kakashi went to Kamui a clone than Obito would just prevent it as he did with GM. As for sneaking it that could be viable if he had help to distract Obito, but w/o help this doesn't seem all that possible as escaping Obito when Obito can warp himself around would be very tough if not impossible for Kakashi. 

So I don't really don't believe that Combo has a high chance of working w/o help, which is why we only saw such a combo pulled off when it was Naruto + Kakashi, and Kakashi never used it again by himself. 

I honestly believe even with knowledge Kakashi is outclassed and would have no chance to win w/o Naruto's help I think this chapter only further supports this. Both fought each other w/o Dojutsu hax this chapter and the fight did result in Kakashi's victory, but it was by a very narrow margin; I've even heard some people call it technically a draw. So Base Kakashi & Base Obito are not far off. But than when we come to MS ability, while they may be equal in skill now that Kakashi has gotten better with his MS, Kakashi can only use Kamui 5-6 times, while Obito can spam the ever loving shit out of it. That is a huge gap and one that I think certainly makes up for the slight gap in base ability. So even with knowledge I see Kakashi being at a huge disadvantage here, because he can not spam his MS. And that's not evem getting into Izanagi.

Edit: To me the levels of Sharingan users stack up like this. You got guys who can use high level MS techs a few time (Sasuke/Kakashi/traditional MS user). Than the level beyond that are guys who have augment themselves or have been augmented so they can use MS more frequently (Danzo, Obito, Edo Itachi). Than after that level comes EMS level. So Kakashi is on normal MS level and can compete with normal MS users, but he can't compete with someone who has augment themselves so they can use MS more frequently, so that's why Kishi had Naruto recharge him, so with Naruto recharges he could use his own MS more frequently.


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## Soljah (Jun 27, 2013)

Kakashi has always been better than Obito. Madara trained him better as an Uchiha and that Senju dna helped him alot but it makes no difference stronger doesn't = better.  And as far as being worn out goes yes Kakashi got his chakra back from Kurama but he still had to go thru the Mist Edos, other Edos, Fighting juubi spawn/juubi and Obito and we all know he just now has average chakra levels after the timeskip.  I think its impressive of him.  Hell Gai is probably stronger physically than alot of Konoha nin but he can be beat by the best of em.


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## Arya Stark (Jun 27, 2013)

Obito > Kakashi
Kamui restricted Obito = Kakashi
Emotionally wreck Obito < Kakashi with full resolve to kill

That's really it.


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## Hasan (Jun 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> You don't seem to get it, even w/o the shroud Kakashi was running off Kyuubi chakra, as he had run out of his own stamina many chapters ago and had to be saved and recharged by Naruto.



The Kyūbi's chakra was all used up in warping in and out the Hachibi. Sakura heals him, afterwards.


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## Sniffers (Jun 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Oh please if mentally struggling is a handicap, than Obito also had that handicap, whether he tries to play it cool or not. Kakashi lost in that instance primarily due to the fact that he had run out of chakra/stamina and could no longer keep up with Obito. That's why Kakashi needed the Kurama recharge to keep using Kamui right after that.
> 
> No with knowledge Kakashi also lost and had to be saved/recharged by Naruto. Kakashi won because he had help from Naruto in both obtaining the knowledge, saving him, and recharging his chakra. Additionally he won because Obito agreed to a sparring match in Box Land, where he couldn't use Kamui.


Kakashi's resolve was temporarily broken with the revelation of who Tobi was. He hardly fought back and Obito's state of mind hardly compares. In fact, he had no reservations to fight Kakashi. Anyway, it's true that Kakashi was out of juice anyway. That doesn't change the fact that Kakashi won round 2 or whatever you want to call it.​


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## Arya Stark (Jun 27, 2013)

While Kakashi gained his resolve, Obito started to get overemotional (look, I'm not saying losing resolve, getting EMOTIONAL) They both tried to TnJ each other and failed, Kakashi was already back in the game when he went to Kamuiland while Obito started to lose in his past with Kakashi this time.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 27, 2013)

spar me

im all for being analytical when it comes to the in's and outs of this manga, but this shit here is some asinine bullshit.

so what, kakashi found out how obito s/t worked.

la di fuckin da

Everyone as far as i know, knew what we got here is the author wanting to move the plot and with that bring madara back to life and progress the moon eye plan along. "dumbest plan in manga history"

The major whole in this process was always the "how" in which said author does this and he did a piss poor job, cause with the abilities obito had with him, this should of been a no contest. As we already witness, kakashi is no match for rinnengan abilities, he may be able to slice through some mokuton jutsu but he has no stamina to hang with obito.

So your here to tell me this is explained because obito decides to forgo mokuton and rinnengan techs, but uses katon... to fight kakashi the same way as they did kids to what end? Beat him "in this specific way"

nobody finds this "solution" to be asinine and pathetic?


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Kakashi's resolve was temporarily broken with the revelation of who Tobi was.​


Kakashi's resolved that was shaken over Tobi's identity was already renewed here:
He makes his own position clear as well
He makes his own position clear as well
He makes his own position clear as well

Yes he was still very emotional, but I think it's ridiculous that one can ignore the signs that Obito was also very emotional. It was an emotional battle for both. 



> He hardly fought back


He fought back, he used Doton to block Obito's initial Shuriken attack:
He makes his own position clear as well

Than Obito used Kamui to catch him with a Shuriken to the leg and grab him for teleport:
He makes his own position clear as well
He makes his own position clear as well

Which Kakashi countered with his own Kamui:
He makes his own position clear as well

Than Obito charged Kakashi, which Kakashi attempted to counter, but failed not due to emotions, but due to the injury he had received in his leg previously:
Link removed

This led to Obito gaining the initiative and owning on Kakashi:
Link removed

At which Point Kakashi was screwed as he was more injured than Obito and he was exhausted:
Link removed

Kakashi lost this duel simply because he did not have the stamina to spam Kamui as much as Obito.



> Anyway, it's true that Kakashi was out of juice anyway. That doesn't change the fact that Kakashi won round 2 or whatever you want to call it.


And Round 2 is not a good measure of each others normal strength for two reasons;

1. Kakashi could only fight round 2 due to having his stamina recharged, with his normal stamina he would have lost; we directly saw that in Ch 608,

2. Due to circumstance Kakashi fought round 2 in Box Land, which prevented Obito from utilizing Kamui. 

So Kakashi winning round 2 does not make him stronger or better than Obito, it just means given these specific circumstances Kakashi was able to find a way to win out. At best we can say Base Kakashi is very slightly stronger than Base Obito.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 27, 2013)

Although I don't completely agree with the thread I agree with the general idea. Obito was so emotionally invested in the battle it was his downfall. Kakashi was emotional in the beginning but he moved past that. Obito on the other hand was fine in the beginning but it quickly went then other direction. Afterwards Obito wanted to prove himself but it didn't go the way he planned. The flashback was a clear parallel. Kishi loves parallels. Also I love the emphasis on exactly what it took to defeat Obito. Without Naruto's help it wouldn't be possible. The cards were lined correctly and in turn Obito was defeated. 

Another interesting thing to mention is how Kishi layers the heroes major wins. 

- Sakura and Chiyo vs Sasori
- Shikamaru vs Hidan
- Sasuke vs Oro
- Sasuke vs Itachi 
- Naruto vs Pain

And now Kakashi vs Obito. 

Kishimoto always finds a stipulation for the heroes to defeat major villains if they're not up to their level. Shikamaru had massive prep time and planning in case you want to mention that. Kakashi vs Obito falls right in line.


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## Pliskin (Jun 27, 2013)

Good thread, good analysis all around.

Though I think you still are viewing this too much from the in story point of view. While Your points are all vlid, they are essentially post hoc explanations for one simple fact: Kishi wants to end the manga asap. 
So side villains need to go. That is the whole reason why Tobito refuses to use his powers, why Madara lets the alliance play around, why Sasuke makes a heel face turn (else he would need a new arc to get involved again) and so on. Kishi simply slaps all loose ends together, inner consistency and logic while somewhat present are at this point secondary.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jun 27, 2013)

Let the haters hate!!! 

Just becuase Kakashi with a chakra boost from naruto beat a KAMUI-less, Mokutonless, high level fire jutsu-less and worn out Obito means nothing compared to the fact Obito was able to fight agasint KAMUI Kakashi+Gated Gai+full Kyuubi powered Naruto+Hachibi powered Killer B at once and not get injured much less lose..

The fact that 2 high kage level shinobi of Killer B and naruto+the lower kage level shinobi of gated GAI and KAMUI kakashi together could not beat Obito at full power with his MS, mokuton, regeneration, durability and high level fire jutsu say sit all IMO...

Obito was able to hold off an even greater force then what Madara had to IMO... I mean full kyuubi powered  Naruto and hachibi powered Killer B together>the 5 kages IMO... Much less Gai using Gates and Kakashi using allot of KAMUI together with the two perfect JINKS...


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## KnightGhost (Jun 27, 2013)

The only pEOple as WE can see that actually buy this are minato fans.

And thats for obvious reasons


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## Sniffers (Jun 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi's resolved that was shaken over Tobi's identity was already renewed here:
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...


Your scans are meaningless, because at that point Kakashi still wasn't fully convinced it was Obito _*as you can read in your very own scans!*_ "_He can't be.. No that's not possible._" So he decided not to get distracted and fight on. Also note Naruto's "_Who are you?!_" at the end of the chapter.  The true reveal had yet to come here. When Obito's mask broke Kakashi was clearly shocked. Here Kakashi actually regains some of his resolve. However, even then he was not willing to kill Obito as noted here. Who said I was ignoring Obito's emotions?​


Turrin said:


> He fought back, he used Doton to block Obito's initial Shuriken attack:
> here
> 
> Than Obito used Kamui to catch him with a Shuriken to the leg and grab him for teleport:
> ...


He was just blocking and not counter attacking... this discussion is also meaningless anyway, because, as noted above, Kakashi would pull his punches at that point. So *that* would be an actual case that is *not* representative of Kakashi's ability to beat Obito.​


Turrin said:


> And Round 2 is not a good measure of each others normal strength for two reasons;
> 
> 1. Kakashi could only fight round 2 due to having his stamina recharged, with his normal stamina he would have lost; we directly saw that in Ch 608,
> 
> ...



It's irrelevant that Kakashi got his chakra recharged _before_ round 2. That's why it's round 2. During that fight Kakashi relied solely on his own skills and won, because he had knowledge.
Obito decided to bring Kakashi there himself though.
My entire point is that it is impossible to determine who's better in these fights, because knowledge and circumstance play very big roles in how effective shinobi are against opponents. In general Obito is probably better, but then Kakashi could kill almost anyone with his new Kamui feats too if plot allowed it.​


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Your scans are meaningless, because at that point Kakashi still wasn't fully convinced it was Obito _*as you can read in your very own scans!*_ "_He can't be.. No that's not possible._" So he decided not to get distracted and fight on. Also note Naruto's "_Who are you?!_" at the end of the chapter.  The true reveal had yet to come here. When Obito's mask broke Kakashi was clearly shocked. Here Kakashi actually regains some of his resolve. However, even then he was not willing to kill Obito as noted here. Who said I was ignoring Obito's emotions?​


Dude he knows it's Obito and fights on. Just because he says that's not possible, doesn't mean he believes that lol, that's the typical Anime reaction to some crazy revelation. 



> Who said I was ignoring Obito's emotions?


You are ignoring how emotional Obito was.



> He was just blocking and not counter attacking... this discussion is also meaningless anyway, because, as noted above, Kakashi would pull his punches at that point. So that would be an actual case that is not representative of Kakashi's ability to beat Obito.


Because all he could do was block, he was being overwhelmed and was at the end of his rope stamina wise. And yes Kakashi wouldn't have killed Obito, but that doesn't matter because at that point he couldn't even hit Obito. When later he did pull his punches we still saw him hit Obito and Obito note that as a time Kakashi could have beaten him. There is no such mention of that before.



> It's irrelevant that Kakashi got his chakra recharged before round 2. That's why it's round 2. During that fight Kakashi relied solely on his own skills and won, because he had knowledge.


LOL what is this nonsense. Your the one calling it Round 2, so that doesn't mean anything, except your labeling it something. In reality this has all been the same battle and the only reason Kakashi is still kicking is due to Naruto saving his ass and recharging him. 

Obito didn't have someone sitting their and healing/recharging him, he did all of this on his own merits. His stamina lasted to the point where he could actually stab Kakashi with the black rod this chapter. Kakashi's did not, he was dead by ch 608. You can't tell me that difference is meaningless.



> Obito decided to bring Kakashi there himself though.


Because otherwise Kakashi would have allies backing him up, such as Naruto, and Obito already knew that Naruto + Kakashi could take him. Obito was willing to sacrifice Kamui to make it 1v1, but that sacrifices was only need due to the intrusion of others, which is not Kakashi's power.



> My entire point is that it is impossible to determine who's better in these fights, because knowledge and circumstance play very big roles in how effective shinobi are against opponents. In general Obito is probably better, but then Kakashi could kill almost anyone with his new Kamui feats too if plot allowed it.


All I've been saying is in general Obito is better than Kakashi, so what are you arguing. And no Kakashi could not kill almost anyone if the plot allowed it, the reason Kakashi isn't a beast, is for the same reason he can't measure up to Obito; he can't spam Kamui. If Kakashi could spam his Kamui as much as Obito he'd be force to be reckoned with, that only the absolute strongest in this manga could hope to defeat. But because Kakashi is limited to (around 5 shots) his Kamui has to be used sparingly and there are many options open to many different Ninja to deal with it.


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Dude he knows it's Obito and fights on. Just because he says that's not possible, doesn't mean he believes that lol, that's the typical Anime reaction to some crazy revelation.


Dude, he's trying to deny it, which was possible at that point. Gai said he was thinking the same thing as Kakashi and still was surprised to see Obito's actual face. It's one thing to have a (strong) suspicion...​


Turrin said:


> You are ignoring how emotional Obito was.


Why do you think I am ingoring that?



Turrin said:


> Because all he could do was block, he was being overwhelmed and was at the end of his rope stamina wise. And yes Kakashi wouldn't have killed Obito, but that doesn't matter because at that point he couldn't even hit Obito. When later he did pull his punches we still saw him hit Obito and Obito note that as a time Kakashi could have beaten him. There is no such mention of that before.


Let's agree to disagree. It's quite clear to me Kakashi didn't have the will, but this doesn't matter for the discussion anyway.​


Turrin said:


> LOL what is this nonsense. Your the one calling it Round 2, so that doesn't mean anything, except your labeling it something. In reality this has all been the same battle and the only reason Kakashi is still kicking is due to Naruto saving his ass and recharging him.
> 
> Obito didn't have someone sitting their and healing/recharging him, he did all of this on his own merits. His stamina lasted to the point where he could actually stab Kakashi with the black rod this chapter. Kakashi's did not, he was dead by ch 608. You can't tell me that difference is meaningless.


Yes, it's actually been one battle, but there is logic to chopping up the exchanges (for example at each period of rest/talking) and considering them as rounds. 

It's the same with Naruto vs Kakuzu. Yeah, it's one fight and Naruto would've died without Kakashi rescuing him. Naruto still wanted another try to beat him _*alone*_. A round 2. "_LOL what is this nonsense, Naruto_", right? =/​


Turrin said:


> Because otherwise Kakashi would have allies backing him up, such as Naruto, and Obito already knew that Naruto + Kakashi could take him. Obito was willing to sacrifice Kamui to make it 1v1, but that sacrifices was only need due to the intrusion of others, which is not Kakashi's power.


I know. That's what I mean with circumstance matters.



Turrin said:


> All I've been saying is in general Obito is better than Kakashi, so what are you arguing. And no Kakashi could not kill almost anyone if the plot allowed it, the reason Kakashi isn't a beast, is for the same reason he can't measure up to Obito; he can't spam Kamui. If Kakashi could spam his Kamui as much as Obito he'd be force to be reckoned with, that only the absolute strongest in this manga could hope to defeat. But because Kakashi is limited to (around 5 shots) his Kamui has to be used sparingly and there are many options open to many different Ninja to deal with it.


I'm arguing that knowledge makes a massive difference. Yeah, I disagree with power being the ability to spam. If you can win with one use, then it's good too IMO.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The problem is Obito can counter Kakashi's attempts to Kamui something, we saw that with GM. So If  Kakashi went to Kamui a clone than Obito would just prevent it as he did with GM. As for sneaking it that could be viable if he had help to distract Obito, but w/o help this doesn't seem all that possible as escaping Obito when Obito can warp himself around would be very tough if not impossible for Kakashi.
> 
> So I don't really don't believe that Combo has a high chance of working w/o help, which is why we only saw such a combo pulled off when it was Naruto + Kakashi, and Kakashi never used it again by himself.
> 
> ...





Like I said, I don't think Kakashi is stronger than Obito. He just happens to be a good match up against him. They both have an unfair advantage against each other, mostly because they are using the abilities that come from the same set of eyes, something which wouldn't normally occur. 

But the counters which they have for each other is in favor of Kakashi, because having the ability to exploit Obito's phasing hurts Obito more than his ability to prevent Kakashi from using Kamui.

While I agree that Obito could prevent Kakashi from openly using Kamui on his bunshin, there are ways Kakashi can secretly use it in the heat of the battle, or trick Obito into warping the bunshin.

So as long as Kakashi is capable of using Kamui, there will always be a chance(albeit slim) for him to defeat Obito, with the help of plot or not.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 27, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Dude, he's trying to deny it, which was possible at that point. Gai said he was thinking the same thing as Kakashi and still was surprised to see Obito's actual face. It's one thing to have a (strong) suspicion...​


I don't see any denial there, Gai is simply telling him this is no time to get overly emotional. As for the shock when the mask comes off, of course he's still going to be a bit shocked a little to see his friend after 20 years, but once again he is helped to get over that shock:
surprised to see Obito's actual face

Not to say Kakashi wasn't still emotional, but again so was Obito. 



> Why do you think I am ingoring that?


Because you seem to be giving Kakashi the benefit of the doubt that his performance was altered by emotion, but not Obito.



> Let's agree to disagree. It's quite clear to me Kakashi didn't have the will, but this doesn't matter for the discussion anyway.


It's not a matter of agree to disagree, we are clearly shown the reason for Kakashi's inability to dodge Obito's attack is due to his leg being injured. But heck Obito could have killed Kakashi even before than if not for Naruto. Kakashi was on the ground bleeding here and it was Naruto who was dealing with Obito:
surprised to see Obito's actual face

So Kakashi would once again be dead long ago if not for Naruto.



> Yes, it's actually been one battle, but there is logic to chopping up the exchanges (for example at each period of rest/talking) and considering them as rounds.
> 
> It's the same with Naruto vs Kakuzu. Yeah, it's one fight and Naruto would've died without Kakashi rescuing him. Naruto still wanted another try to beat him alone. A round 2. "LOL what is this nonsense, Naruto", right? =/


Except it's not like that. If both and Obito and Kakashi took a breather together than fine, but that's not the case; one person is being recharged by other shinobi, while the other is still fighting on his own stamina & merit. Not only that but Obito is not getting saved or covered for when he fucks up like Kakashi has been throughout the manga. 

I mean if Obito had medics and naruto helping him, Kakashi hitting him with Rarikiri this chapter wouldn't have been a big deal. One of them could have saved him or healed him.

Basically Kakashi gets many chances to fuck up and exert all of his chakra on specific moves, while Obito doesn't get that chance, and that's a major difference. 



> I know. That's what I mean with circumstance matters.


Which was the point of my thread that circumstance aided Kakashi, so why are you arguing with me.



> I'm arguing that knowledge makes a massive difference. Yeah, I disagree with power being the ability to spam. If you can win with one use, then it's good too IMO.


Yeah, but ultimately you agree that it came down to circumstance, not just knowledge. So I still think your overrating knowledge, since it was not due to just that.


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## BeBreezy (Jun 27, 2013)

Good analysis, as always Turrin. Let's hope that this is what Kishi was actually thinking.


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## Ricky Sen (Jun 28, 2013)

Pliskin said:


> Good thread, good analysis all around.
> 
> Though I think you still are viewing this too much from the in story point of view. While Your points are all vlid, they are essentially post hoc explanations for one simple fact: Kishi wants to end the manga asap.
> So side villains need to go. That is the whole reason why Tobito refuses to use his powers, why Madara lets the alliance play around, why Sasuke makes a heel face turn (else he would need a new arc to get involved again) and so on. Kishi simply slaps all loose ends together, inner consistency and logic while somewhat present are at this point secondary.



Best post in recent years.This is the most accurate description of every chapter since the beginning of the war, at least.


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## Sniffers (Jun 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I don't see any denial there, Gai is simply telling him this is no time to get overly emotional. As for the shock when the mask comes off, of course he's still going to be a bit shocked a little to see his friend after 20 years, but once again he is helped to get over that shock:
> the fight with Kamui
> 
> Not to say Kakashi wasn't still emotional, but again so was Obito.


"_No he can't be. It's impossible._"
It's completely baffling that you cannot see the denial, but you somehow see Kakashi getting over the shock in that page you posted. Kakashi is silent and has his head hanging for crying out loud! That's not how you portray someone getting his resolve back.​


Turrin said:


> Because you seem to be giving Kakashi the benefit of the doubt that his performance was altered by emotion, but not Obito.


So because I say Kakashi had it more difficult at the time, because he just had a recent shock, means that I must be ignoring Obito's emotions? You and your conclusions...​


Turrin said:


> It's not a matter of agree to disagree, we are clearly shown the reason for Kakashi's inability to dodge Obito's attack is due to his leg being injured. But heck Obito could have killed Kakashi even before than if not for Naruto. Kakashi was on the ground bleeding here and it was Naruto who was dealing with Obito:
> the fight with Kamui
> 
> So Kakashi would once again be dead long ago if not for Naruto.​



I agree that the leg injury made it so that Kakashi couldn't dodge the follow up attacks, but that's not nearly the whole story, is it? We already established he was ready to play defense.​


Turrin said:


> Except it's not like that. If both and Obito and Kakashi took a breather together than fine, but that's not the case; one person is being recharged by other shinobi, while the other is still fighting on his own stamina & merit. Not only that but Obito is not getting saved or covered for when he fucks up like Kakashi has been throughout the manga.
> 
> I mean if Obito had medics and naruto helping him, Kakashi hitting him with Rarikiri this chapter wouldn't have been a big deal. One of them could have saved him or healed him.
> 
> Basically Kakashi gets many chances to fuck up and exert all of his chakra on specific moves, while Obito doesn't get that chance, and that's a major difference.


So Naruto never crossed that hazardous bridge then? He thought he beat Kakuzu *alone*, but actually Naruto would've been killed without help so him *winning* a 'round 2' alone is lolnonsense? Whatever, man.​


Turrin said:


> Which was the point of my thread that circumstance aided Kakashi, so why are you arguing with me.


I was simply making an argument of how knowledge is an important factor, but then _you_ started to argue. So ask yourself why _you_ are arguing with _me_.​


Turrin said:


> Yeah, but ultimately you agree that it came down to circumstance, not just knowledge.


Yes, like I said in my first post, the situation is also important.​


Turrin said:


> So I still think your overrating knowledge, since it was not due to just that.


I never claimed it was *just* due to knowledge. Your conclusions... ​


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 28, 2013)

I agree, as KyuubiNaruto put it, Obito got emotionally invested in this fight.

Now that may've not been the best way to handle it given our expectations of Obito given hype, portrayal etc. It was, however, necessarily that it happened the way it did. There was no real way for Kakashi to beat the Rinnegan alongside Mokuton. 

It is consistent with a pattern Kishi set. That is stronger characters who are too strong to lose have insane limitations place on them so the weaker party, we've seen it before:

- Kimimaro's illness against Gaara and Lee. 
- Orochimaru's arms against Naruto/Sasuke.
- Pain's offensive power being cut against Naruto; still it required Nagato to change sides.
- Nagato being controlled by Kabuto (who lacked full knowledge on his abilities) vs Itachi, Bee and Naruto.
- Kabuto (held back) vs Sasuke (held back) and Itachi -- so Itachi wouldn't be out shined.
- And now, Obito lacking full Rinnegan and Mokuton application, vs Kakashi. 

Do make a character successfully fulfill a role, Kishimoto has shown that he is willing to dumb down their allies/foes to get the job done. Though unfortunate when it happens, we should be hardly surprised at this point.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, I don't think Kakashi is stronger than Obito. He just happens to be a good match up against him. They both have an unfair advantage against each other, mostly because they are using the abilities that come from the same set of eyes, something which wouldn't normally occur.
> 
> But the counters which they have for each other is in favor of Kakashi, because having the ability to exploit Obito's phasing hurts Obito more than his ability to prevent Kakashi from using Kamui.



Pretty much this...

I have no reason why people like to downplay kakashi as some weakling that can not hang with kage level shinobi. With Kamui he has the ability to literally beat anyone and his all around base skills are on par or better then most shinobi. Obito is still several times stronger then kakashi

Like it or not kakashi has improved greatly from part 1 where he could barely handle Zabuzu and shit his pants in front of orochimaru to fighting with deva realm, obito, and the other edo jins

I think the most impressive feat this chapter was recognizing he was inside a genjutsu. The same man who can genjutsu control the Kyuubi and a perfect jin.


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> "_No he can't be. It's impossible._"
> It's completely baffling that you cannot see the denial, but you somehow see Kakashi getting over the shock in that page you posted. Kakashi is silent and has his head hanging for crying out loud! That's not how you portray someone getting his resolve back.​


I read the scene as a luke and darth vadar moment. 

Luke, "Said no that's impossible" to, but he knew deep down that Darth was his father. I see it as the same thing with Kakashi and Obito. 

I read the other scene as Kakashi getting over the shock mostly because after that Kakashi seems fine and we see him thinking about what Madara's relation to the moons eye plan is, not still angsting over Obito:
this



> So because I say Kakashi had it more difficult at the time, because he
> just had a recent shock, means that I must be ignoring Obito's emotions? You and your conclusions..


You said, "Obito's state of mind hardly compares" 

I think this is ignoring how emotional Obito has been in this battle, if you think there is some large gap in how much Kakashi and Obito are effected by emotions.



> I agree that the leg injury made it so that Kakashi couldn't dodge the follow up attacks, but that's not nearly the whole story, is it? We already established he was ready to play defense


He was on the defensive because I repeat, 

"all he could do was block, he was being overwhelmed and was at the end of his rope stamina wise. And yes Kakashi wouldn't have killed Obito, but that doesn't matter because at that point he couldn't even hit Obito. When later he did pull his punches we still saw him hit Obito and Obito noted the times Kakashi could have beaten him. There is no such mention of that before."

I also repeat,

" But heck Obito could have killed Kakashi even before than if not for Naruto. Kakashi was on the ground bleeding here and it was Naruto who was dealing with Obito:
this

So Kakashi would once again be dead long ago if not for Naruto." 

So again there is no matter of opinion here, Kakashi would have lost long ago if not for the help of Naruto.



> So Naruto never crossed that hazardous bridge then? He thought he beat Kakuzu alone, but actually Naruto would've been killed without help so him winning a 'round 2' alone is lolnonsense? Whatever, man.


What is this nonsense, i'm sorry, but this blows my mind how incomprehensible it is.

Of course Naruto didn't beat Kakuzu alone; Team 10 & Kakashi had already take out 2 of Kakuzu's hearts before Naruto even showed up. They also gathered intel on Kakuzu, which they gave to Naruto as well:
this
this

Than of course Naruto gets his ass saved by Yamato & Kakashi. So defeating Kakuzu was always a team effort. 

The crossing of the dangerous bridge comment has to do with Naruto wanting to end the battle with his new Jutsu (FRS), not that he thinks he defeated Kakuzu through only his own efforts. 

I mean it's just baffling to me that anyone could give only Naruto credit for Kakuzu's defeat 

And it's the same here with the Obito vs Kakashi situation as I repeat:

Kakashi got many chances to fuck up and exert all his entire chakra supply, while Obito had no freebies chances to fuck up and did not get his chakra supply restored throughout the fight. Which is a massive advantage.



> I was simply making an argument of how knowledge is an important factor, but then you started to argue. So ask yourself why you are arguing with me
> I never claimed it was just due to knowledge. Your conclusions...



Sniffers "Sure it took a combined effort for Obito's Kamui to be figured out, but once it was, Kakashi has shown he can defeat Obito by himself. At least without the Edo Pains. Knowledge is the key here."

Okay so first off you blatantly state that knowledge was the deciding factor (or "key" as you call it) in Kakashi's ability to beat Obito by himself. Also you were clearly ignoring the circumstances I've been trying to prove to you in our discussion, because you Kakashi showed he could beat Obito by himself. The circumstances I've been arguing the whole time is that Kakashi had help.

In-fact when I made the argument

Turrin "Because otherwise Kakashi would have allies backing him up, such as Naruto, and Obito already knew that Naruto + Kakashi could take him. Obito was willing to sacrifice Kamui to make it 1v1, but that sacrifices was only need due to the intrusion of others, which is not Kakashi's power."

You agreed to it saying 

Sniffers, "I know. That's what I mean with circumstance matters."

This means that your admitting that one of the circumstances was due to Kakashi having help, Obito had to move the battle to box land where they could fight 1v1. Since you said "I know", meaning you know this is a circumstance and that circumstance means Kakashi did not ever display the ability to win by himself, because he was still getting help. 

And this was the whole reason for my disagreement with your original post that started this discussion. Because you were saying w/ knowledge Kakashi has displayed the ability to win by himself, but he hasn't and you just admitted that. Hence why I said why are you still arguing with me, because at that point I had already proven your initial statement wrong.

As for me arguing with Knowledge being an important factor, I never did that. In-fact I said 

Turrin, "Knowledge does make a difference"

So I agree it's important, but I simply comment that your assessment of the level of importance, was a bit of an overestimation. The reason I said that was because, you were saying stuff like:

Sniffers, "The Rinnegan is also considered extremely hax, but Kakashi claimed he had strategies to deal its abilities."

This never even happened. Kakashi never claimed he had strategies to counter all of the Rinnegan's abilities. Gai said

_"probably he is not so fool to consume his chakra to use\\
pain?s other techniques against which we already have our countermeasures\\"_

And Gai was saying "we" and "our", so he was talking about at least him and Kakashi combined being able to counter those Jutsu and perhaps was even including Naruto & B in that assessment. He was not saying him or Kakashi could counter the 6 Paths (or even more dramatically counter every Rinnegan ability). So you can see why I considered your statement a bit of an overestimation of knowledge.

I also thought this stuff was a bit of an exaggeration as well:

Sniffers, "Knowledge is a massive factor in Naruto and it basically makes tier rankings meaningless (to some degree). Hashirama may have been the strongest shinobi ever, but even he will fall (in theory) to Koto Amatsukami or Tsukuyomi if he doesn't know not to look."

Anyway I really didn't make that big of a deal about it though, just said imo your giving knowledge a bit too much credit. Nor do I really want to get into a big discussion over the specific level of importance of knowledge as my main concern always was with you saying Kakashi w/ knowledge had displayed the ability to beat Obito by himself, which is simply not the case.


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I read the scene as a luke and darth vadar moment.
> 
> Luke, "Said no that's impossible" to, but he knew deep down that Darth was his father. I see it as the same thing with Kakashi and Obito.
> 
> ...


Obito's TRUE reveal, the confirmation, came later when the mask broke and everyone had shocked faces. It's pretty clear.​


Turrin said:


> You said, "Obito's state of mind hardly compares"
> 
> I think this is ignoring how emotional Obito has been in this battle, if you think there is some large gap in how much Kakashi and Obito are effected by emotions.


Kakashi was utterly shocked and had to be spurred on by his comrades to get back to it. Obito did not nearly have as much emphasis on his broken resolve during that fight. So, yeah, "_Obito's state of mind hardly compares_". That does NOT mean Obito's emotions are ignored.​


Turrin said:


> He was on the defensive because I repeat,
> 
> "all he could do was block, he was being overwhelmed and was at the end of his rope stamina wise. And yes Kakashi wouldn't have killed Obito, but that doesn't matter because at that point he couldn't even hit Obito. When later he did pull his punches we still saw him hit Obito and Obito noted the times Kakashi could have beaten him. There is no such mention of that before."
> 
> ...


You repeating the same stuff won't magically change my mind, you know? I offered to agree to disagree on this matter, I'm not sure why you are so stubborn about forcing your views on me. Also, the bold was never disputed. Two words: round two.​


Turrin said:


> What is this nonsense, i'm sorry, but this blows my mind how incomprehensible it is.
> 
> Of course Naruto didn't beat Kakuzu alone; Team 10 & Kakashi had already take out 2 of Kakuzu's hearts before Naruto even showed up. They also gathered intel on Kakuzu, which they gave to Naruto as well:
> ability to rip out a person's soul with a simple touch, for one?
> ...


If Naruto meant that he just wanted the end the battle with FRS, then there's no reason for him to not accept help to set it up. He wanted to fight Kakuzu alone to prove to himself that he can beat a truly threatening opponent, even if it was a weakened Kakuzu, by himself.. to no longer be a child. He got a second shot against an opponent who since the first try had not grown weaker. That he needed a second shot did not invalidate the fact that he crossed the bridge *by himself*.​


Turrin said:


> Sniffers "Sure it took a combined effort for Obito's Kamui to be figured out, but once it was, Kakashi has shown he can defeat Obito by himself. At least without the Edo Pains. Knowledge is the key here."
> 
> Okay so first off you blatantly state that knowledge was the deciding factor (or "key" as you call it) in Kakashi's ability to beat Obito by himself. Also you were clearly ignoring the circumstances I've been trying to prove to you in our discussion, because you Kakashi showed he could beat Obito by himself. The circumstances I've been arguing the whole time is that Kakashi had help.
> 
> ...


You call it a 1v1, but it isn't? 

You know the actual reason for Obito to take Kakashi to the Box World was to prevent Kakashi from one-shotting the Jubi.​


Turrin said:


> As for me arguing with Knowledge being an important factor, I never did that. In-fact I said
> 
> Turrin, "Knowledge does make a difference"
> 
> ...


So Guy said it, my point stands. Having knowledge makes a big difference. It doesn't matter it never happened, it was said so my point is valid within the manga.​


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Obito's TRUE reveal, the confirmation, came later when the mask broke and everyone had shocked faces. It's pretty clear.​


That was the reveal of Tobi's face, it was already clear he was Obito before then to both the readers and Kakashi.



> Kakashi was utterly shocked and had to be spurred on by his comrades to get back to it. Obito did not nearly have as much emphasis on his broken resolve during that fight. So, yeah, "Obito's state of mind hardly compares". That does NOT mean Obito's emotions are ignored.


Obito is not going to get that focus because he doesn't have friends and he is attempting to hide his emotions. However Kishimoto does give focus to Obito being shaken by his emotions:
Naruto wanting to end the battle with his new Jutsu (FRS
Naruto wanting to end the battle with his new Jutsu (FRS
Naruto wanting to end the battle with his new Jutsu (FRS
Naruto wanting to end the battle with his new Jutsu (FRS
Naruto wanting to end the battle with his new Jutsu (FRS
Link removed
Link removed
Etc... many different examples beyond this



> You repeating the same stuff won't magically change my mind, you know? I offered to agree to disagree on this matter, I'm not sure why you are so stubborn about forcing your views on me.


Because it's not a view it's a fact. 



> Also, the bold was never disputed. Two words: round two.


Two Words; Made Up



> If Naruto meant that he just wanted the end the battle with FRS, then there's no reason for him to not accept help to set it up.


Yes there is, because if he needs help to land FRS, than it's not a Jutsu which he can utilize w/o help. So he need to prove he could execute the Jutsu solo.



> He wanted to fight Kakuzu alone to prove to himself that he can beat a truly threatening opponent, even if it was a weakened Kakuzu, by himself.. to no longer be a child. He got a second shot against an opponent who since the first try had not grown weaker. That he needed a second shot did not invalidate the fact that he crossed the bridge by himself.


Of course it was about proving himself, but it had to do with FRS. That was the point of the entire arc and that's also what Naruto says his objective is. So again your just denying Manga cannon.



> You call it a 1v1, but it isn't?
> 
> You know the actual reason for Obito to take Kakashi to the Box World was to prevent Kakashi from one-shotting the Jubi.


Okay this makes me think your just trolling. I mean I directly proved your argument wrong and instead of being logical and just admitting the short comings of your argument, your just pretending you didn't previously agree with my logic.

I didn't call it anything, I said Obito wanted to make it 1v1. 

That was not Obito's reason as Obito says he was waiting for the OP to warp Kakashi and that was before he knew Kakashi was intending to warp the Juubi:
Link removed

So yeah I think you know your wrong at this point and just trolling, so i'm not sure i'm going to bother after this post.



> So Guy said it, my point stands. Having knowledge makes a big difference. It doesn't matter it never happened, it was said so my point is valid within the manga.


Gai did not say Kakashi can counter all of the 6 Path Jutsu. Gai said him & Kakashi combined can counter the 6 Path abilities, and may also have been including B & Naruto in that equation. So it's not what you said.

So your point is an exaggeration of what's said in the manga.


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## Sniffers (Jun 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> That was the reveal of Tobi's face, it was already clear he was Obito before then to both the readers and Kakashi.


Kakashi is clearly shocked upon seeing the face, so you are quite simply wrong. The suspicion was strong, that's true, but that's all it was.​


Turrin said:


> Obito is not going to get that focus because he doesn't have friends and he is attempting to hide his emotions. However Kishimoto does give focus to Obito being shaken by his emotions:
> Minato didn't disagree
> Minato didn't disagree
> Minato didn't disagree
> ...


Yes, he had doubts, but his resolve wasn't nearly as broken as Kakashi's. Kakashi was in complete shock and you are comparing that to someone who was a bit "_too hasty_". It's pretty ridiculous.​


Turrin said:


> Because it's not a view it's a fact.


Except it's not.​


Turrin said:


> Two Words; Made Up


Two words: not really. (See next section why.)​


Turrin said:


> Yes there is, because if he needs help to land FRS, than it's not a Jutsu which he can utilize w/o help. So he need to prove he could execute the Jutsu solo.
> 
> Of course it was about proving himself, but it had to do with FRS. That was the point of the entire arc and that's also what Naruto says his objective is. So again your just denying Manga cannon.


The point of the FRS training was to become stronger.. to catch up to Sasuke. To do that he needed to face Kakuzu alone. Even if we were to go by your logic that it was just to show that he could land FRS alone, then that still means the accomplishment of round 2 is considered valid despite the help he received before it. So your argument doesn't actually address my point of (the feats of) a 'round 2' being considered completely valid in the manga.

Naruto proved he can land a FRS without help in the second round. By your logic there is no round 2 and Naruto never crossed the hazardous bridge alone because it's all one fight and he needed to be saved before his second try. You are the one ingoring the manga here.​


Turrin said:


> Okay this makes me think your just trolling. I mean I directly proved your argument wrong and instead of being logical and just admitting the short comings of your argument, your just pretending you didn't previously agree with my logic.
> 
> I didn't call it anything, I said Obito wanted to make it 1v1.
> 
> ...


Except you didn't prove my argument wrong. Your accusations of me trolling aren't helping your argument either. Also, what do you mean with "_the OP_" (bold)? From where I stand Obito simply foresaw Kakashi's intentions. Regardless, Obito had to prevent Kakashi from warping the Jubi.

Obito's ally, Madara, has been sitting being bored for a few chapters now, so it's quite impossible to buy into Obito fleeing to Box World out of fear of being double-teamed as opposed to him preventing Kakashi from one-shotting the Jubi.​


Turrin said:


> Gai did not say Kakashi can counter all of the 6 Path Jutsu. Gai said him & Kakashi combined can counter the 6 Path abilities, and may also have been including B & Naruto in that equation. So it's not what you said.
> 
> So your point is an exaggeration of what's said in the manga.


I said "_Kakashi claimed he had strategies to deal its [the Rinnegan] abilities_". I never specified if Kakashi required assistance in these strategies or not and it was _just_ to illustrate that knowledge makes a difference.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 28, 2013)

We've seen the Rinnegan jutsu, and we've seen it is very difficult to have particular counters when one user has all its powers and is focusing on beating you with those powers.

So the Rinnegan, like Mokuton, remains a very valid reason as to why Obito was dumbed down, so to speak.


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Kakashi is clearly shocked upon seeing the face, so you are quite simply wrong. The suspicion was strong, that's true, but that's all it was.​


Dude if I thought my childhood friend died, I found out he was alive, but had yet to see his face. I'd still be shocked when I finally did see his face aged 20 some years and disfigured. 

It's not like there was only one reason (the identity itself) for Kakashi to have an ! and shock in that situation.



> Yes, he had doubts, but his resolve wasn't nearly as broken as Kakashi's. Kakashi was in complete shock and you are comparing that to someone who was a bit "too hasty". It's pretty ridiculous.


Obito and Madara have been planning the Moons Eye for decades. To deviate from a path so many years in the making, is not something that would occur from someone only having some doubts. Obito was shaken, shaken so bad that as I showed in those scans he was sweating and flustered. 

Kakashi was not still in "complete" shock by ch 608.



> Except it's not.


Explain to me how it's not a fact that Kakashi would have lost to Obito, if not for Naruto, when we directly see that is the case in the manga. Again in case you missed it:
Link removed
Link removed

And he also could have been defeated here if not for Naruto dealing with Obito:
Link removed



> The point of the FRS training was to become stronger.. to catch up to Sasuke. To do that he needed to face Kakuzu alone. Even if we were to go by your logic that it was just to show that he could land FRS alone,


We don't need to go by my logic just read the dam manga:
Link removed

Naruto, "Let me do this one more time" "I'll decide this with my new Jutsu"



> then that still means the accomplishment of round 2 is considered valid despite the help he received before it. So your argument doesn't actually address my point of (the feats of) a 'round 2' being considered completely valid in the manga.
> 
> Naruto proved he can land a FRS without help in the second round. By your logic there is no round 2 and Naruto never crossed the hazardous bridge alone because it's all one fight and he needed to be saved before his second try. You are the one ingoring the manga here.


Your really trying to find any loophole you can to try and argue against the very obvious fact that other characters contributed to the defeat of Kakuzu. Am I suppose to just forget that stuff that disadvantage Kakuzu and advantaged Naruto like this happened?:

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

That's my question you still haven't answered. As for your question the answer is so simple, I can't even believe I have to say it. It's one battle, but within that battle a Jutsu can be used more than once. So it's not a round 2, it's a second usage of the Jutsu. On this second usage Naruto wanted to see if he could execute FRS properly. 



> Except you didn't prove my argument wrong. Your accusations of me trolling aren't helping your argument either. Also, what do you mean with "the OP" (bold)?


Yes I did, you just choose to ignore the entire explanation I typed out and than suddenly switch your position completely. Just because you now switch your position doesn't mean I didn't prove you wrong before. 



> From where I stand Obito simply foresaw Kakashi's intentions. Regardless, Obito had to prevent Kakashi from warping the Jubi.
> 
> Obito's ally, Madara, has been sitting being bored for a few chapters now, so it's quite impossible to buy into Obito fleeing to Box World out of fear of being double-teamed as opposed to him preventing Kakashi from one-shotting the Jubi.


This makes no sense, because Obito says "Looks Like you were waiting for it", which shows that Obito only in that moment saw that Kakashi was aiming to warp Juubi, however Obito says "But I was too" which shows he was waiting for the opening before that moment. 

Also there is intuiting and than just mind reading, for Obito to know that Kakashi was waiting for this exact time to warp Juubi would require Mind reading, considering there were plenty of other times Juubi went to use a big move and Kakashi did not attempt to warp it.

Finally if Obito's object was simply to stop Kakashi's Kamui, he can cock-block that w/o warping Kakashi to Box Land:
Link removed
Link removed

So on no level does this explanation make sense.



> I said "Kakashi claimed he had strategies to deal its [the Rinnegan] abilities". I never specified if Kakashi required assistance in these strategies or not and it was just to illustrate that knowledge makes a difference.


Way to make up shit up after the fact. It is quite clear from the context of your post that you were implying Kakashi with knowledge could counter the 6 Paths solo.

But even with this new revision, it still not something that was said. Because Gai claimed that together (which may include Naruto & B) they had strategies to take down 6 Paths. That doesn't mean that Kakashi by himself had come up with all the strategies or had all the strategies to counter the 6 paths, it could simply mean that Gai had come up with a strategy to deal with 1 Path ability while Kakashi had a strategy for a different one.

I don't know why you can't just admit that your wrong.


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 29, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Dude if I thought my childhood friend died, I found out he was alive, but had yet to see his face. I'd still be shocked when I finally did see his face aged 20 some years and disfigured.
> 
> It's not like there was only one reason (the identity itself) for Kakashi to have an ! and shock in that situation.
> 
> ...


He wasn't in _complete_ shock anymore, but to compare Kakashi's and Obito's resolve is still ridiculous. Heck, even _Obito_ mocked Kakashi about still hesitating.​


Turrin said:


> *Explain to me how it's not a fact that Kakashi would have lost to Obito, if not for Naruto,* when we directly see that is the case in the manga. Again in case you missed it:
> even if he is this close
> even if he is this close
> 
> ...


That's not the part I was referring to as you should've known when I already told you 2 posts ago the bolded was something I never disputed nor care about. Neither of us can definitively prove that Kakashi's broken resolve affected his ability to defend and fight Obito. I think it did, but neither can prove it so snap out of your delusion that your opinion is some kind of fact, please. 
To once again clarify, my argument is about Kakashi winning *round 2*.​


Turrin said:


> We don't need to go by my logic just read the dam manga:
> even if he is this close
> 
> Naruto, "Let me do this one more time" "I'll decide this with my new Jutsu"


How bothersome. In your nitpicking you don't realise what I am saying is essentially the same thing. Yes, Naruto wanted to finish it with the FRS to prove to himself he can land it by himself. Why? To prove he can face an opponent like a (weakened) Kakuzu. To prove his growth (in strength). But ultimately it's unimportant to my argument what Naruto wished to prove, it's about the fact the individual accomplishment of round 2 was deemed valid. So focus on the actual point, please.​


Turrin said:


> Your really trying to find any loophole you can to try and argue against the very obvious fact that other characters contributed to the defeat of Kakuzu. *Am I suppose to just forget that stuff that disadvantage Kakuzu and advantaged Naruto like this happened?*:
> 
> even if he is this close
> even if he is this close
> ...


You can remember it, it's just irrelevant to my point as I noted before. In the end Kakuzu was brought down by a team effort, I never claimed that wasn't true. I just wish you addressed my actual point for once, which is that:
despite having *help before round 2*, Naruto's feat of landing the FRS *by himself* was still considered valid proof of his ability to do so.​
There was no-one arguing that it was actually all one fight and Naruto had help at one point, which means he never proved he could land the FRS _by himself_ or he never crossed the bridge _by himself_. You're arguing Naruto's *logic* (and mine) is wrong and he never crossed the bridge.​


Turrin said:


> Yes I did, you just choose to ignore the entire explanation I typed out and than suddenly switch your position completely. Just because you now switch your position doesn't mean I didn't prove you wrong before.


I neither ignored your explanation nor switched my position nor did you prove me wrong. Empty accusations. I addressed your confusing rebuttal of Obito wanting to make it 1v1 with a question. How can you say Obito wanted to make it a 1v1 when you argue that's impossible in the first place, because you argue he was forced to go to Box World due to the intrusion of *others* so it never could be a 1v1? So clear that mess up, please. Also, an additional/new argument is not me changing my position. Finally, I'm still not sure what you "_proved_" me wrong about. I agreed to there being a situation and that it matters, not that Kakashi vs Obito wasn't a 1v1 (as Obito intended).​


Turrin said:


> This makes no sense, because Obito says "Looks Like you were waiting for it", which shows that Obito only in that moment saw that Kakashi was aiming to warp Juubi, however Obito says "But I was too" which shows he was waiting for the opening before that moment.
> 
> Also there is intuiting and than just mind reading, for Obito to know that Kakashi was waiting for this exact time to warp Juubi would require Mind reading, considering there were plenty of other times Juubi went to use a big move and Kakashi did not attempt to warp it.
> 
> ...


Okay, so Obito didn't know Kakashi's intentions and lucked out that he attacked when he did (at the moment he waited on), because otherwise his pet would've been dead. Whatever the real explanation is then, it's also not yours where Obito was forced to go to Box World out of fear of being double-teamed, because his ally, Madara, has just been chilling out for a few chapters.​


Turrin said:


> Way to make up shit up after the fact. It is quite clear from the context of your post that you were implying Kakashi with knowledge could counter the 6 Paths solo.


No, it wasn't. You read it wrong. I broke it into two sections; the first pertaining to Kakashi vs Obito and the second section was a general discussion about knowledge where I even gave examples with characters who weren't Kakashi. Sorry if you got confused, but don't accuse me of making shit up.​


Turrin said:


> But even with this new revision, it still not something that was said. Because Gai claimed that together (which may include Naruto & B) they had strategies to take down 6 Paths. That doesn't mean that Kakashi by himself had come up with all the strategies or had all the strategies to counter the 6 paths, *it could simply mean that Gai had come up with a strategy to deal with 1 Path ability while Kakashi had a strategy for a different one.*
> 
> I don't know why you can't just admit that your wrong.


I will agree that there is a chance that Kakashi wasn't aware of the strategy for every Path ability and Guy complemented that knowledge, but that doesn't seem likely at all. So I stand by my statement.​


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## Turrin (Jun 29, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> He wasn't in _complete_ shock anymore, but to compare Kakashi's and Obito's resolve is still ridiculous. Heck, even _Obito_ mocked Kakashi about still hesitating.​


Here i'm willing to agree to disagree as, this is a matter of opinion. I will say Kakashi is being more transparent with his emotions than Obito, but I think that is simply due to Obito becoming introverted. However if you want to believe otherwise, than fine, because I don't think this has relevance to my argument that Kakashi was defeated by Obito in ch 608, because once again Kakashi couldn't even land a blow on Obito and Obito never cited that as a time Kakashi was hesitating like he did in other cases. 



> That's not the part I was referring to as you should've known when I already told you 2 posts ago the bolded was something I never disputed nor care about. *Neither of us can definitively prove that Kakashi's broken resolve affected his ability to defend and fight Obito.* I think it did, but neither can prove it so snap out of your delusion that your opinion is some kind of fact, please.


Here you keep ignoring my argument though.

Kakashi's resolve was not broken in Chapter 598, since he'd already had his resolve renewed by Gai:
he hole where the Window used to be

Now later in Ch 598 before Obito's mask came off, Kakashi due to stamina strain is on the ground bleeding and defenseless, with Obito laughing about it:
he hole where the Window used to be

Would Kakashi have not lost that battle, if not for allies being there to handle Obito while he took a breather? To me the answer is w/o a doubt yet, he would have lost in that condition. And again in that instance resolve was not an issue. This is the part that I believe proves as a fact that Kakashi would have lost this battle w/o allies.

As for ch 608, this too can be heavily argued as a point Kakashi, would have lost regardless of emotion. We know Kakashi's resolve to fight was not broken, as Kakashi is already back in the game thinking about what Madara's goal is and not still angsting over Obito:
he hole where the Window used to be

So his resolve was not so broken that he couldn't fight. Now you might say his resolve was broken enough where he wouldn't kill Obito, that's fine, but Kakashi never even got the chance to hit Obito, let alone deliver a killing shot. So that level of resolve being shaken, does not really matter, when Obito did not benefit from it. 




> How bothersome. In your nitpicking you don't realise what I am saying is essentially the same thing. Yes, Naruto wanted to finish it with the FRS to prove to himself he can land it by himself. Why? To prove he can face an opponent like a (weakened) Kakuzu. To prove his growth (in strength). But ultimately it's unimportant to my argument what Naruto wished to prove, it's about the fact the individual accomplishment of round 2 was deemed valid. So focus on the actual point, please.There was no-one arguing that it was actually all one fight and Naruto had help at one point, which means he never proved he could land the FRS by himself or he never crossed the bridge by himself. You're arguing Naruto's logic (and mine) is wrong and he never crossed the bridge.


I answered your question. There is a difference between round 2 and using jutsu a second time. We can't separate the Kakuzu battle into round 1 and round 2, as that ignores the fact that Naruto had the advantage of trail and error. When he fucked up, he had Yamato and Gai there to save his ass, when Kakuzu fucked up there was no one there to save him. That's an indisputable advantage that gets ignored if we insert round 2, into this battle. It would be different if both combatants agreed at specific intervals for their to be rounds throughout the match where they took breathers and no one else was saving their ass during the actual rounds, but that's not the case here.

However when it comes to utilizing a Jutsu is different because it doesn't speak towards the nature of the fight, it just speaks towards whether a person can successfully execute a technique. So to be even more detailed.

Naruto uses FRS, fails & Yamato/Kakashi save him. Than Naruto retries and lands it

So when he lands FRS the second time do to having a better handle on the timing he's completed his objective of landing the Jutsu and showing it's accessible in battle, thus crossing the bridge. Now you can say the fact that Yamato and Kakashi saving him advantaged him in the battle as it gave him multiple attempts with the technique, but Naruto doesn't care about that, all he cares about is proving he's complete'd FRS, which means landing it in battle. Sure Naruto may know that he only landed FRS on Kakuzu due to Yamato and Kakashi bailing him out that time, but again this doesn't matter, because Naruto proved the second time that the Jutsu can be used in battle & any failure to land the Jutsu is his own, rather than him not having succeeded in his training.

So basically it's apples and oranges 

Naruto wanted to show he completed Elemental Rasengan and it could be used in battle, which he proved, regardless of Yamato and Kakashi's aid.

While on the other hand when talking about advantages and disadvantages in terms of who beats who Naruto was clearly advantaged by the fact that Kakashi/Yamato were around to bail him out when he fucked up.



> I neither ignored your explanation nor switched my position nor did you prove me wrong. Empty accusations.


This is BS, the part you blatantly ignored this entire part:



> Sniffers "Sure it took a combined effort for Obito's Kamui to be figured out, but once it was, Kakashi has shown he can defeat Obito by himself. At least without the Edo Pains. Knowledge is the key here."
> 
> Okay so first off you blatantly state that knowledge was the deciding factor (or "key" as you call it) in Kakashi's ability to beat Obito by himself. Also you were clearly ignoring the circumstances I've been trying to prove to you in our discussion, because you Kakashi showed he could beat Obito by himself. The circumstances I've been arguing the whole time is that Kakashi had help.
> 
> ...


And no you making new arguments still does not address this

[QUOTE I addressed your confusing rebuttal of Obito wanting to make it 1v1 with a question. How can you say Obito wanted to make it a 1v1 when you argue that's impossible in the first place, because you argue he was forced to go to Box World due to the intrusion of others so it never could be a 1v1? So clear that mess up, please. Also, an additional/new argument is not me changing my position. Finally, I'm still not sure what you "proved" me wrong about. I agreed to there being a situation and that it matters, not that Kakashi vs Obito wasn't a 1v1 (as Obito intended).[/QUOTE]
That's because 1v1 can be used in two separate ways. One way is to talk about the entire battle, which yeah it's impossible to consider any point of that battle 1v1 due to Kakashi receiving so much help. However 1v1 can also just refer to one person vs one person, which is the scenario Obito wanted to create; him vs Kakash. However that does not erase the fact that when the entire battle is looked at and not just the end of the battle, it was not 1v1, and it does not erase the advantages created by the previous team effort, before the battle got down to one person vs one person.

So basically it's entire battle vs specific point in the battle. 

So to give another example it's like a Samurai fights 50 Ninja. Throughout the battle the Samurai kills off 49 of them and so by the end it just him vs the last remaining Ninja. So the entire battle can be considered 1v50, but by the other usage of this term, one can refer to the specific point in the battle where it's literally down to 1v1. But that doesn't mean if the Ninja were to than kill the Samurai that he did so on his own efforts, because that would be ignoring the other 49 brave Ninja who helped him with the entire battle.

I think I just over explained a really simple concept, but since you seem to get easily confused, I thought I't make it as straight forward as possible.


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## Turrin (Jun 29, 2013)

> Okay, so Obito didn't know Kakashi's intentions and lucked out that he attacked when he did (at the moment he waited on), because otherwise his pet would've been dead..


Whether you want to think he lucked out or not I don't care to debate that issue as it doesn't matter to the point.  



> Whatever the real explanation is then, it's also not yours where Obito was forced to go to Box World out of fear of being double-teamed, because his ally, Madara, has just been chilling out for a few chapters


Thee only explanation that makes sense is that Obito wanted to fight Kakashi w/o the interference of others. Sure Madara was still around, but Madara is not someone you can count on & it's very doubtful that if Obito said I want to fight just Kakashi that Madara would sit there and play crowd control keeping any alliance members out of the fight. Heck Madara already failed to prevent Naruto from saving Kakashi's ass previous in Ch 608 and failed to prevent Naruto + Kakashi from double teaming Naruto in ch 609, which was the chapter Obito cites that Kakashi could have killed him in.

So the Madara excuse hardly works here. 

And it may not have just been fear of being double teamed, it may have also been due to his emotions over Kakashi, that he wanted some alone time with him. Ether way the only reason such a move would ever be necessary is because Kakashi had allies in the real dimension, while he would be alone in Box Land. 

Otherwise one has to believe Obito handicapped himself for no particular reason... 



> Sorry if you got confused, but don't accuse me of making shit up.


Sure sure whatever you say....

[QUOTE*]I will agree that there is a chance that Kakashi wasn't aware of the strategy for every Path ability* and Guy complemented that knowledge, but that doesn't seem likely at all. So I stand by my statement.[/QUOTE]
The bold makes your statement wrong, you thinking your theory is likely doesn't change that. As for my opinion on your theory that Kakashi was aware of all the strategies, I'm not nearly as confident as you in that being likely as Kakashi was in coma throughout most of the Pain fight and only encountered 2 of the Pain paths. Naruto however is the one that fought the 6 Path abilities multiple times and has displayed several ways to counter their abilities and just recently learned how to counter CT from Itachi. So to me it seems likely that a few of those counter strategies may be provided by Naruto. 

As he was filling B in about Shared vision and black rods earlier in the fight:
he hole where the Window used to be
he hole where the Window used to be
he hole where the Window used to be
he hole where the Window used to be


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## The World (Jun 29, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ahahaha someone is not happy with the outcome.
> 
> 
> No one is saying Kakashi > Obito.
> ...





nope


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## Closet Pervert (Jun 29, 2013)

Here's how i interpreted it:

Kakashi kicked Obito's ass. Again.


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## Sniffers (Jun 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Here you keep ignoring my argument though.
> 
> Kakashi's resolve was not broken in Chapter 598, since he'd already had his resolve renewed by Gai:
> countless fodder ninja also proved capable of using the same technique, also to defend against one of Madara's super-sized Katons,
> ...


I'm not ignoring your argument, I disagree with it. I agree Kakashi would've lost due to his bad state anyway (he had been fighting for quite a bit longer than Obito), however his broken resolve does play a role IMO and neither of us can prove that is or is not true.​


Turrin said:


> I answered your question. There is a difference between round 2 and using jutsu a second time. We can't separate the Kakuzu battle into round 1 and round 2, as that ignores the fact that Naruto had the advantage of trail and error. When he fucked up, he had Yamato and Gai there to save his ass, when Kakuzu fucked up there was no one there to save him. That's an indisputable advantage that gets ignored if we insert round 2, into this battle. It would be different if both combatants agreed at specific intervals for their to be rounds throughout the match where they took breathers and no one else was saving their ass during the actual rounds, but that's not the case here.
> 
> However when it comes to utilizing a Jutsu is different because it doesn't speak towards the nature of the fight, it just speaks towards whether a person can successfully execute a technique. So to be even more detailed.
> 
> ...


It's not apples and oranges, it's the exact same logic. See two sections below for why I say that using your samurai vs ninja example to explain.​


Turrin said:


> This is BS, the part you blatantly ignored this entire part:
> 
> And no you making new arguments still does not address this


You drew a faulty conclusion. What I agreed with is:

Turrin: "_Because otherwise Kakashi would have allies backing him up, such as Naruto, and Obito already knew that Naruto + Kakashi could take him. Obito was willing to sacrifice Kamui to make it 1v1, but that sacrifices was only need due to the intrusion of others, which is not Kakashi's power._"​I agree that if Obito were to stay in the real world, Kakashi would have back up. Though Obito would have Madara's assistance too. I also agree that Obito knew that Naruto and Kakashi could take him. However, let's note again that Obito has an ally too. I also agree Obito was willing to sacrifice Kamui to fight Kakashi 1v1 in Box World, because of the intrusion of others. However, at the time I believed the presence of the Jubi was what forced Obito, since he had to prevent Kakashi from one-shotting it. So yeah, I agreed the circumstance, in this case the presence of certain character(s), is important. I did not agree with Naruto and co being "_help_" to Kakashi in the 1v1 or 'round 2', because, you know, it's *1*v*1*. 

My point was that circumstance was important and since you called it a 1v1 I figured that all I need to clarify is that I am interested in 'round 2'. However, then you clarified that 1v1 did not actually mean 1v1 (confusing as your argument is), but actually 1v1+help or some shit. Then I proceeded to clarify why I disagreed with your reason for counting said help, which you then mistakenly saw as me changing my stance. So your conclusion was a little off and you proved nothing.​


Turrin said:


> That's because 1v1 can be used in two separate ways. One way is to talk about the entire battle, which yeah it's impossible to consider any point of that battle 1v1 due to Kakashi receiving so much help. However 1v1 can also just refer to one person vs one person, which is the scenario Obito wanted to create; him vs Kakash. However that does not erase the fact that when the entire battle is looked at and not just the end of the battle, it was not 1v1, and it does not erase the advantages created by the previous team effort, before the battle got down to one person vs one person.
> 
> So basically it's entire battle vs specific point in the battle.
> 
> ...


Then I don't see why you say 'round 2' is made up. You are referring to specific parts of a battle too! The only difference is that I named it.

Anyway, let's stick to the samurai example:
If the final ninja wins in such a way that it can be assumed reasonable that he would've been able to pull it off by himself then I will grant him the respect he deserves.

For example, let's say the first 48 ninja died and 2 other ninja got badly hurt, but thanks to their efforts they got valuable information on the samurai's abilities. Then let's say one of the remaining 2 ninja heals the other and then dies. We now have 1 ninja and 1 samurai left and let's assume neither show signs of being in significantly worse fighting condition than the other. Let 'round 2' or the '1v1' start and we see the ninja win. We conclude the ninja won due to the acquired knowledge of 'round 1', in other words: with that knowledge ninja 1 put up a much better fight and in fact won 1v1. So he has _proven_ that he can beat the samurai alone, provided he has the intel (which he now has for every next fight they might have). In some other situation he may or may not have won, but in the present situation he proved he could win 1v1, even though the entire battle was actually a 1v50.​
So that's the simple logic behind drawing a conclusion even from a part of a battle.

It was the same with Naruto proving he can land FRS on Kakuzu. He failed, had help to survive, learned from his mistake, acquired new knowledge, and then he _proved_ he could land the FRS by himself. When you look at the entire battle he wasn't able to land it by himself, because he had to be saved, but in the last part he _proved_ he was _capable of it_ anyway with his new experience.​


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## Sniffers (Jun 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Thee only explanation that makes sense is that Obito wanted to fight Kakashi w/o the interference of others. Sure Madara was still around, but Madara is not someone you can count on & it's very doubtful that if Obito said I want to fight just Kakashi that Madara would sit there and play crowd control keeping any alliance members out of the fight. Heck Madara already failed to prevent Naruto from saving Kakashi's ass previous in Ch 608 and failed to prevent Naruto + Kakashi from double teaming Naruto in ch 609, which was the chapter Obito cites that Kakashi could have killed him in.
> 
> So the Madara excuse hardly works here.
> 
> ...


The reason could also simply be that Obito wanted to attack Kakashi, noted Kakashi was about to one-shot the Jubi, and decided it would be better to warp away with Kakashi. After all, the Jubi was going on a rampage and Obito's earlier method of negating Kakashi's Kamui may have become risky to himself or even impossible. That could also explain why Kakashi thought Kamui would work this time despite Obito still being present.​


Turrin said:


> The bold makes your statement wrong, you thinking your theory is likely doesn't change that.


No, it doesn't make my statement wrong. My statement would be wrong if it was proven Kakashi wasn't aware of a counter for each Path.​


Turrin said:


> As for my opinion on your theory that Kakashi was aware of all the strategies, I'm not nearly as confident as you in that being likely as Kakashi was in coma throughout most of the Pain fight and only encountered 2 of the Pain paths. Naruto however is the one that fought the 6 Path abilities multiple times and has displayed several ways to counter their abilities and just recently learned how to counter CT from Itachi. So to me it seems likely that a few of those counter strategies may be provided by Naruto.
> 
> As he was filling B in about Shared vision and black rods earlier in the fight:
> countless fodder ninja also proved capable of using the same technique, also to defend against one of Madara's super-sized Katons,
> ...


So what Kakashi was in a coma? No-one could've told him? Or rather, no-one *would* have told him? Kakashi basically died for part of that information. It seems like information that would be shared, especially with Kakashi.​


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## Turrin (Jun 30, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> I'm not ignoring your argument, I disagree with it. *I agree Kakashi would've lost due to his bad state anyway*, however his broken resolve does play a role IMO and neither of us can prove that is or is not true.​


I never said Kakashi's emotions didn't play a role. I just said that it's a fact that Kakashi would have lost regardless due to his condition. Since you finally agreed to that, we can end this discussion. 



> (he had been fighting for quite a bit longer than Obito)


No he had not been. Obito was fighting Naruto and B, before Kakashi & Gai even arrived.



> owever, at the time I believed the presence of the Jubi was what forced Obito, since he had to prevent Kakashi from one-shotting it. So yeah, I agreed the circumstance, in this case the presence of certain character(s), is important.


You still don't get it. Whether it was due to the presence of the Juubi or Alliance members, the existence of other entities on the battlefield caused Obito to be put in a disadvantaged situation and Kakashi to be put in an advantaged situation. Therefore Kakashi is receiving aid from others, whether it's their direct intent (Alliance) or indirect intent (Juubi). That's why I keep saying your missing the point and just throwing in new arguments like whether it was the Juubi or the alliance, which is not relevant to the original point.



> Then I don't see why you say 'round 2' is made up. You are referring to specific parts of a battle too! The only difference is that I named it.


The difference is Round 2 implies a separation of 1 Battle into two different battles, while I'm just looking at 1-point in a battle within context of everything that has happened throughout the entire battle.



> For example, let's say the first 48 ninja died and 2 other ninja got badly hurt, but thanks to their efforts they got valuable information on the samurai's abilities. Then let's say one of the remaining 2 ninja heals the other and then dies. We now have 1 ninja and 1 samurai left and let's assume neither show signs of being in significantly worse fighting condition than the other. Let 'round 2' or the '1v1' start and we see the ninja win. We conclude the ninja won due to the acquired knowledge of 'round 1', in other words: with that knowledge ninja 1 put up a much better fight and in fact won 1v1. So he has proven that he can beat the samurai alone, provided he has the intel (which he now has for every next fight they might have). In some other situation he may or may not have won, but in the present situation he proved he could win 1v1, even though the entire battle was actually a 1v50.


But the underline is not the case with the Obito fight.

Naruto did not die off the moment Kakashi got knowledge, nor did Kakashi win once he got knowledge. Rather Kakashi was for all intents and purposes defeated twice (ch 598 & ch 608) and twice Naruto took care of Obito for him while he recovered. So knowledge wasn't making the difference. 

The assumption that nether are in worse fighting condition than thee other is also something your granting the Samurai in this example, but was blatantly not the case for Obito. Obito is in much worse condition because he can't use his signature jutsu (Kamui). On top of that it seems very foolish to assume that Obito's stamina was in as good of a condition as Kakashi, who just before being warped was recharged again by Naruto, meanwhile Obito has fought this entire battle w/o recharges. Obito also clearly has a stamina limit, since controlling the tailed beast is remarked on requiring a hefty amount of Obito's chakra:
countless fodder ninja also proved capable of using the same technique, also to defend against one of Madara's super-sized Katons,

Obito not only controlled the Jin/Tailed beasts for 8 chapters, but than he spammed Kamui and other Jutsu like crazy after that, and than he once again went back to controlling a tailed beast (Juubi), etc... So Obito should have been significantly lower in the stamina department than he normally is. In-fact maybe that's why he did not bust out Mokuton (which is remarked to require a considerable amount of chakra), Rinnegan techs, or large Katon techs

So your example simply does not hold up.



> was the same with Naruto proving he can land FRS on Kakuzu. He failed, had help to survive, learned from his mistake, acquired new knowledge, and then he proved he could land the FRS by himself. When you look at the entire battle he wasn't able to land it by himself, because he had to be saved, but in the last part he proved he was capable of it anyway with his new experience.


There's a difference between proving he can land the Jutsu and proving he can land the Jutsu on Kakuzu. Naruto never proved he could land the Jutsu on Kakuzu, because Kakuzu was already handicapped at that time and Naruto needed help. Naruto however proved that he could land the Jutsu on other opponents and that it was a functioning technique. 



> The reason could also simply be that Obito wanted to attack Kakashi, noted Kakashi was about to one-shot the Jubi, and decided it would be better to warp away with Kakashi. After all, the Jubi was going on a rampage and O*bito's earlier method of negating Kakashi's Kamui may have become risky to himself or even impossible.* That could also explain why Kakashi thought Kamui would work this time despite Obito still being present.


The bold might offer another explanation, but the thing is the only reason why Kakashi's Kamui would suddenly become that much stronger and no-longer could be cock-blocked the way he did before, would be because of Kakashi being super charged by the Kurama chakra Naruto gave him. Which once again means Obito was forced to move the fight to box land due to Kakashi's allies, namely Naruto.



> No, it doesn't make my statement wrong. My statement would be wrong if it was proven Kakashi wasn't aware of a counter for each Path.


No your statement is wrong, because you made the statement as if it was a manga fact, I.E. you said in the manga Kakashi claimed he had strategies to deal with it's (Rinnegan's) abilities. 

Kakashi never made that claim in the manga cannon, not even Gai made the claim that Kakashi by-himself had all the strategies to deal with all of Rinnegan's abilities (Side note Rinnegan has more abilities than just the 6 Paths, so that part's erroneous as well). So since the quote does not exists your statement was wrong.

No based on Gai's statement you might be able to theorize something like what your saying, but you having a theory doesn't make your claim of a manga cannon statement any more valid.



> So what Kakashi was in a coma? No-one could've told him? Or rather, no-one would have told him? Kakashi basically died for part of that information. It seems like information that would be shared, especially with Kakashi.


Some one might have told him and Kakashi might have come up with strategies to the 6 Path's abilities. But the might part is what makes it a theory, rather than a manga cannon statement as you presented it as in your initial post.

As for the likelihood that happened, we'll the issue I could see is time constrains. The manga has been full throttle since the Pain Arc giving very little breaks for Kakashi or Naruto to sit down and chat about all of Pain's different abilities. Plus we certainly have examples where Kakashi does not discuss intel with his teammates over a long period of time and by long I mean 2.5 years. Since it isn't till Team 7 faces Itachi's Shoten-clone in part II that Kakashi shares what he's learned about Itachi's capabilities in his exchange with Itachi back in Part I, with the rest of Team 7:
Link removed
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So yeah still not convinced in the your theory being super likely, it's possible, but it's also equally or perhaps even more unlikely.

*Edit:* And here's another thing Sniffers, you keep saying it's about knowledge and that's why Kakashi won your made up "round 2", but Kakashi didn't even use the knowledge he gained on Kamui in "round 2", because Obito wasn't using Kamui. So it's not like we now saw Kakashi using some brilliant strategy incorporating his new found knowledge on Kamui to counter it himself, instead he didn't have to worry about Kamui at all, and didn't incorporate any strategy based on knowledge in to landing his Rarikiri on Obito, he just out brawled Obito. So This is another mind baffling aspect of your argument that just occurred to me.


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## Sniffers (Jun 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I never said Kakashi's emotions didn't play a role. I just said that it's a fact that Kakashi would have lost regardless due to his condition. Since you finally agreed to that, we can end this discussion.


I already said Kakashi was (almost) out of juice anyway regardless of his broken resolve in my third post.​


Turrin said:


> No he had not been. Obito was fighting Naruto and B, before Kakashi & Gai even arrived.


Lets not ignore the other opponents Kakashi fought that day. ​


Turrin said:


> You still don't get it. Whether it was due to the presence of the Juubi or Alliance members, the existence of other entities on the battlefield caused Obito to be put in a disadvantaged situation and Kakashi to be put in an advantaged situation. Therefore Kakashi is receiving aid from others, whether it's their direct intent (Alliance) or indirect intent (Juubi). That's why I keep saying your missing the point and just throwing in new arguments like whether it was the Juubi or the alliance, which is not relevant to the original point.


Their presence is just the situation they had their 1v1 in. Sure Obito had to protect the Jubi, but it's not like Kakashi had nothing to protect that could be exploited. Kakashi and Obito simply both agreed to making it a 1v1, because both figured it would be beneficial for their cause. Obito lost.​


Turrin said:


> The difference is Round 2 implies a separation of 1 Battle into two different battles, while I'm just looking at 1-point in a battle within context of everything that has happened throughout the entire battle.


Which is the same thing I am doing. Just calling it a different name.



Turrin said:


> But the underline is not the case with the Obito fight.
> 
> Naruto did not die off the moment Kakashi got knowledge, nor did Kakashi win once he got knowledge. Rather Kakashi was for all intents and purposes defeated twice (ch 598 & ch 608) and twice Naruto took care of Obito for him while he recovered. So knowledge wasn't making the difference.
> 
> ...


So, I assume you get the logic and are therefore arguing how Kakashi vs Obito is NOT the same as in the example? I will assume you do.


Naruto didn't die, no, but the ninja dying was just to set up 1v1 in my example. You can also let him live and have him watch. It's irrelevant to my point.
Obito and Kakashi deciding to fight in Box World was their own decision based on the situation. In another situation Obito may not have opted for this tactic and won, which is why I said the situation is important in the outcome of a fight.
In the 1v1 there was no sign of Obito being less effective due to some shortage of stamina.



Turrin said:


> There's a difference between proving he can land the Jutsu and proving he can land the Jutsu on Kakuzu. Naruto never proved he could land the Jutsu on Kakuzu, because Kakuzu was already handicapped at that time and Naruto needed help. Naruto however proved that he could land the Jutsu on other opponents and that it was a functioning technique.


I already noted Kakuzu's weakened state.​


Turrin said:


> The bold might offer another explanation, but the thing is the only reason why Kakashi's Kamui would suddenly become that much stronger and no-longer could be cock-blocked the way he did before, would be because of Kakashi being super charged by the Kurama chakra Naruto gave him. Which once again means Obito was forced to move the fight to box land due to Kakashi's allies, namely Naruto.


Sure, Kakashi and Naruto's team effort of 'killing' the Jubi was too much for Obito and Madara's team effort of protecting the Jubi, so Obito had to take drastic measures.​


Turrin said:


> No your statement is wrong, because you made the statement as if it was a manga fact, I.E. you said in the manga Kakashi claimed he had strategies to deal with it's (Rinnegan's) abilities.
> 
> Kakashi never made that claim in the manga cannon, not even Gai made the claim that Kakashi by-himself had all the strategies to deal with all of Rinnegan's abilities (Side note Rinnegan has more abilities than just the 6 Paths, so that part's erroneous as well). So since the quote does not exists your statement was wrong.
> 
> ...


Wait, I now realise it's true that the 'claim'-part makes the statement wrong. It would have been proper of me to have looked up the exact statement rather than doing it out of memory, but I didn't because it was irrelevant to my point and I never expected this level of nitpicking.. and it doesn't even show that I'm overrating the importance of knowledge...​


Turrin said:


> As for the likelihood that happened, we'll the issue I could see is time constrains. The manga has been full throttle since the Pain Arc giving very little breaks for Kakashi or Naruto to sit down and chat about all of Pain's different abilities. Plus we certainly have examples where Kakashi does not discuss intel with his teammates over a long period of time and by long I mean 2.5 years. Since it isn't till Team 7 faces Itachi's Shoten-clone in part II that Kakashi shares what he's learned about Itachi's capabilities in his exchange with Itachi back in Part I, with the rest of Team 7:
> Kurama chakra Naruto gave him
> Kurama chakra Naruto gave him
> Kurama chakra Naruto gave him
> ...


Naruto and Kakashi have had plenty of time to chat since the Pain arc. Lots of shinobi from Konoha have seen Pains abilities as well. While Kakashi may not have shared all intel with Genin/Chunin, _he himself_ does seem to ask others about how to fight people. In the page you linked yourself we see Kakashi asking Guy about how he fought Itachi after he passed out. It is most likely that Kakashi would have done the same thing when Pain knocked him out too.​


Turrin said:


> *Edit:* And here's another thing Sniffers, you keep saying it's about knowledge and that's why Kakashi won your made up "round 2", but Kakashi didn't even use the knowledge he gained on Kamui in "round 2", because Obito wasn't using Kamui. So it's not like we now saw Kakashi using some brilliant strategy incorporating his new found knowledge on Kamui to counter it himself, instead he didn't have to worry about Kamui at all, and didn't incorporate any strategy based on knowledge in to landing his Rarikiri on Obito, he just out brawled Obito. So This is another mind baffling aspect of your argument that just occurred to me.


Would Kakashi let himself be warped by Obito if he had no idea where he would end up or if he could ever come back? Kakashi knowing that Obito could not phase in Box World is also pretty much a plus. In fact, that's why Kakashi attack was effective in the first place.​


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## Turrin (Jun 30, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> I already said Kakashi was (almost) out of juice anyway regardless of his broken resolve in my third post.​


Sniffers it's true that you eventually agreed Kakashi was running low on Stamina, but you still kept pushing resolve as part of the reason Kakashi would have lost to Obito. That's why we kept discussing that issue. 

However now you have finally admitted that, "Kakashi would've lost due to his bad state anyway, "
This now makes the mental state of Kakashi pointless, since you have finally agreed with my original point that he would have lost anyway. Hence why now I say we can stop discussing this point.



> Lets not ignore the other opponents Kakashi fought that day.


I am ignoring them, because it's obvious to me that Kakashi recovered (healed, soldier pill, rested, whatever) from that before joining the Obito battle. Otherwise we have to believe Kakashi did what he did in the Obito battle after fighting with no rests for 2 days straight, which defies all logic when it comes to how Kakashi's stamina was portrayed in the manga cannon.



> Their presence is just the situation they had their 1v1 in. Sure Obito had to protect the Jubi, but it's not like Kakashi had nothing to protect that could be exploited. Kakashi and Obito simply both agreed to making it a 1v1, because both figured it would be beneficial for their cause. Obito lost.


This does nothing to address my point it only reinforces it. Again you seem to miss the point:

"the existence of other entities on the battlefield caused Obito to be put in a disadvantaged situation and Kakashi to be put in an advantaged situation. Therefore Kakashi is receiving aid from others, whether it's their direct intent (Alliance) or indirect intent (Juubi). "

Your comment still means that it was the existence of other entities on the battlefield that made Obito take things to Box Land. Obito was disadvantaged in box land. So once again outside help whether direct or indirect aided Kakashi, as it caused him to face Obito in an advantageous scenario.



> Which is the same thing I am doing. Just calling it a different name.


No it's not and I explained why. So I repeated because you didn't seem to get it, "The difference is Round 2 implies a separation of 1 Battle into two different battles, while I'm just looking at 1-point in a battle within context of everything that has happened throughout the entire battle."



> Naruto didn't die, no, but the ninja dying was just to set up 1v1 in my example. You can also let him live and have him watch. It's irrelevant to my point.


But he didn't just watch, he covered for Kakashi twice.



> Obito and Kakashi deciding to fight in Box World was their own decision based on the situation. In another situation Obito may not have opted for this tactic and won, which is why I said the situation is important in the outcome of a fight.


My brain hurts.....my brain. Okay so you admit situation had a large effect on the outcome. Now let's once again go back to your original statement:

"Sniffers "Sure it took a combined effort for Obito's Kamui to be figured out, but once it was, Kakashi has shown he can defeat Obito by himself. At least without the Edo Pains. Knowledge is the key here.""

Now if situation effected the outcome that much & it was the difference between winning and defeat. Than for the 50th time in this thread, you can't say knowledge was the "key" here, rather situation favoring Kakashi would be the "key". You also can't say Kakashi shown he can beat Obito by himself, since the situation which allowed Kakashi to win was created by the intrusion of other people. 

Please for the love of god say that you finally understand & agree with these fundamental ideas.



> In the 1v1 there was no sign of Obito being less effective due to some shortage of stamina.


Seriously you don't think Obito using that crappy little grand fireball compared to the large ass Katon he displayed earlier, might be a sign of running low on stamina. Or perhaps that might be the reason he didn't use any Mokuton or Rinnegan techniques? I'm not sayinf for sure this is the reason, i'm just saying that it's a possibility and I find it hard to imagine that you can sit here and say these are w/o a doubt not signs of declining stamina.



> I already noted Kakuzu's weakened state


Yes and that's my point. That having to be noted means Naruto never proved he could land the Jutsu on a non-handicapped Kakuzu.



> Sure, Kakashi and Naruto's team effort of 'killing' the Jubi was too much for Obito and Madara's team effort of protecting the Jubi, so Obito had to take drastic measures.


Okay so,  it was the existence of other entities on the battlefield that made Obito take things to Box Land. Obito was disadvantaged in box land. So once again outside help whether direct or indirect aided Kakashi, as it caused him to face Obito in an advantageous scenario.



> Wait, I now realise it's true that the 'claim'-part makes the statement wrong. It would have been proper of me to have looked up the exact statement rather than doing it out of memory, but I didn't because it was irrelevant to my point and I never expected this level of nitpicking..


Don't tell me about nitpicking Sniffers. All I said to begin with was, "However it seems like your overrating knowledge a bit to me." A very brief and off the cusp statement, which you than proceeded to argue with just because I said you were overrating it a bit imo. To me that's equally as bad nitpicking, if not worse, because I was up front and said it was my opinion, while you were trying to present something as a fact. 

Also your the reason i'm nitpicking in this instance as well, since your the one that kept pushing the fact that I was wrong about your statement being wrong. If you would have just agreed to begin with we wouldn't be here right now.



> and it doesn't even show that I'm overrating the importance of knowledge...


Dude ever since you claimed that it was not your intent that Kakashi w/ knowledge could counter the 6 paths alone -- which I still don't believe, for this very reason -- I don't see how the statement helps your position on the GREAT importance of knowledge whatsoever. I mean what does that statement really say than that Kakashi, Gai, B, and Naruto as a team could beat the 6 Paths; yeah i'm pretty sure they'd stomp regardless of whether they had knowledge going into that. So maybe knowledge makes it slightly more of stomp, wow what a great impact.



> Naruto and Kakashi have had plenty of time to chat since the Pain arc. Lots of shinobi from Konoha have seen Pains abilities as well. While Kakashi may not have shared all intel with Genin/Chunin, he himself does seem to ask others about how to fight people. In the page you linked yourself we see Kakashi asking Guy about how he fought Itachi after he passed out. It is most likely that Kakashi would have done the same thing when Pain knocked him out too.


This is why it might be the case, but does not prove it is the case. 



> Would Kakashi let himself be warped by Obito if he had no idea where he would end up or if he could ever come back? Kakashi knowing that Obito could not phase in Box World is also pretty much a plus. In fact, that's why Kakashi attack was effective in the first place.


Oh come it's shit like this where you look for every excuse in the book, that makes me get nitpicky. So now Kakashi let himself get warped LOL. No he didn't Obito took Kakashi by surprise and had already grabbed him, the warp was unavoidable:
Katon he displayed earlier

Do you really think Kakashi would let himself get warped if he could have prevented it and gotten a chance to warp the Juubi instead. 

But anyway this again doesn't matter to my point. My point is your saying "round 2" is Kakashi vs Obito in Box World, & Kakashi won this time due to knowledge, in-fact knowledge was the "key" and deciding factor. However if we redid "round 2" in bow world and Kakashi had no knowledge this time, nothing would change, he'd still win the exact same way, because he didn't use knowledge to best Obito in "round 2" he just out brawled him.

Do you see what i'm saying, about how it's very hard for me to see knowledge as the biggest defining factor in your "round 2", when no knowledge Kakashi would have also won. To me and I know this might be crazy to even consider...maybe even going off your "round 2" logic, the biggest factor for Kakashi's win wasn't knowledge, but circumstance, in this case the circumstance that Obito couldn't use his Kamui.


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## Sniffers (Jun 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Sniffers it's true that you eventually agreed Kakashi was running low on Stamina, but you still kept pushing resolve as part of the reason Kakashi would have lost to Obito. That's why we kept discussing that issue.
> 
> However now you have finally admitted that, "Kakashi would've lost due to his bad state anyway, "
> This now makes the mental state of Kakashi pointless, since you have finally agreed with my original point that he would have lost anyway. Hence why now I say we can stop discussing this point.


Kakashi would've lost anyway, but the reason he lost so _bad_ was because he had no resolve.



Turrin said:


> I am ignoring them, because it's obvious to me that Kakashi recovered (healed, soldier pill, rested, whatever) from that before joining the Obito battle. Otherwise we have to believe Kakashi did what he did in the Obito battle after fighting with no rests for 2 days straight, which defies all logic when it comes to how Kakashi's stamina was portrayed in the manga cannon.


He may have recovered at some points, but he already was worried about his stamina after one Raikiri or so, so I definitely don't believe he was fully recovered. He even had sweat marks and bruises visible!​


Turrin said:


> This does nothing to address my point it only reinforces it. Again you seem to miss the point:
> 
> "the existence of other entities on the battlefield caused Obito to be put in a disadvantaged situation and Kakashi to be put in an advantaged situation. Therefore Kakashi is receiving aid from others, whether it's their direct intent (Alliance) or indirect intent (Juubi). "
> 
> Your comment still means that it was the existence of other entities on the battlefield that made Obito take things to Box Land. Obito was disadvantaged in box land. So once again outside help whether direct or indirect aided Kakashi, as it caused him to face Obito in an advantageous scenario.


That shouldn't be considered as _help_ though. They were just present and Kakashi took advantage of the Jubi's presence. It's not like it was Obito vs Kakashi + Jubi. It was a 1v1 (the last part that is) and Kakashi created a situation that favoured him. Obito could've also put Kakashi on the defense by attacking the people _he_ wants to protect, but Kakashi just made better use of the _situation_.​


Turrin said:


> No it's not and I explained why. So I repeated because you didn't seem to get it, "The difference is Round 2 implies a separation of 1 Battle into two different battles, while I'm just looking at 1-point in a battle within context of everything that has happened throughout the entire battle."


I'm doing exactly the same. Looking at part of the battle.



Turrin said:


> But he didn't just watch, he covered for Kakashi twice.


So? The ninja in the example also aided the last ninja. Does it really matter how many times and how the ninja helped in a discussion of the 1v1 part? No.



Turrin said:


> My brain hurts.....my brain. Okay so you admit situation had a large effect on the outcome. Now let's once again go back to your original statement:
> 
> "Sniffers "Sure it took a combined effort for Obito's Kamui to be figured out, but once it was, Kakashi has shown he can defeat Obito by himself. At least without the Edo Pains. Knowledge is the key here.""
> 
> ...


The fact that the situation is important doesn't mean that knowledge wasn't. The situation, the presence of the Jubi/Gedo Mazo and Kakashi's allies did not fundamentally change, yet Obito went from fighting four shinobi simultaneously to losing to Kakashi 1v1. What fundamentally changed is that Kakashi learned the mechanics of Kamui and the existence of Box World. It was because of this knowledge that he could turn the situation to his advantage (intended in this specific way or not). So, yeah, knowledge was key here. That's not to say the situation didn't play (an important) factor.​


Turrin said:


> Seriously you don't think Obito using that crappy little grand fireball compared to the large ass Katon he displayed earlier, might be a sign of running low on stamina. Or perhaps that might be the reason he didn't use any Mokuton or Rinnegan techniques? I'm not sayinf for sure this is the reason, i'm just saying that it's a possibility and I find it hard to imagine that you can sit here and say these are w/o a doubt not signs of declining stamina.


Sure, they could be signs, but I don't see why I would see them as such. If Kishimoto wished to convey that stamina was running low he would make it clear. Obito would pant or have a thought bubble on it or something.​


Turrin said:


> Yes and that's my point. That having to be noted means Naruto never proved he could land the Jutsu on a non-handicapped Kakuzu.


Like I said before, I'm not sure how that is relevant, but okay.



Turrin said:


> Don't tell me about nitpicking Sniffers. All I said to begin with was, "However it seems like your overrating knowledge a bit to me." A very brief and off the cusp statement, which you than proceeded to argue with just because I said you were overrating it a bit imo. To me that's equally as bad nitpicking, if not worse, because I was up front and said it was my opinion, while you were trying to present something as a fact.
> 
> Also your the reason i'm nitpicking in this instance as well, since your the one that kept pushing the fact that I was wrong about your statement being wrong. If you would have just agreed to begin with we wouldn't be here right now.


Asking someone about why you think I'm overrating something/someone is nitpicking?  



Turrin said:


> Dude ever since you claimed that it was not your intent that Kakashi w/ knowledge could counter the 6 paths alone -- which I still don't believe, for this very reason -- I don't see how the statement helps your position on the GREAT importance of knowledge whatsoever. I mean what does that statement really say than that Kakashi, Gai, B, and Naruto as a team could beat the 6 Paths; yeah i'm pretty sure they'd stomp regardless of whether they had knowledge going into that. So maybe knowledge makes it slightly more of stomp, wow what a great impact.


It basically said that Kakashi and co were prepared to deal with the Rinnegan's abilities, but it's not like preparation is a benefit or anything, right?  

The way Kishimoto had Guy note that they had counters should by itself indicate the importance of knowledge (Kakashi previously died for).​


Turrin said:


> This is why it might be the case, but does not prove it is the case.


My intent was to explain why I think it was likely. If I could prove it, I wouldn't say I think it likely, but I would call it a fact.​


Turrin said:


> Oh come it's shit like this where you look for every excuse in the book, that makes me get nitpicky. So now Kakashi let himself get warped LOL. No he didn't Obito took Kakashi by surprise and had already grabbed him, the warp was unavoidable:
> Katon he displayed earlier
> 
> Do you really think Kakashi would let himself get warped if he could have prevented it and gotten a chance to warp the Juubi instead.


I do believe Kakashi could've avoided Obito's attack if he wanted to, especially with the shroud, because of the extra panel. Although at the moment he did miss his opportunity to one-shot the Jubi. Kakashi was completely prepared to be warped and in fact got the upper hand out of it. So, it seems Kakashi was willingly going through with this or his reflexes are just godly.​ 


Turrin said:


> But anyway this again doesn't matter to my point. My point is your saying "round 2" is Kakashi vs Obito in Box World, & Kakashi won this time due to knowledge, in-fact knowledge was the "key" and deciding factor. However if we redid "round 2" in bow world and Kakashi had no knowledge this time, nothing would change, he'd still win the exact same way, because he didn't use knowledge to best Obito in "round 2" he just out brawled him.
> 
> Do you see what i'm saying, about how it's very hard for me to see knowledge as the biggest defining factor in your "round 2", when no knowledge Kakashi would have also won. To me and I know this might be crazy to even consider...maybe even going off your "round 2" logic, the biggest factor for Kakashi's win wasn't knowledge, but circumstance, in this case the circumstance that Obito couldn't use his Kamui.


Without knowledge of Box World, Kakashi would probably figure Obito would just phase through his Raikiri and not opt for this effective brawl style in the first place. He'd be wary of Obito's phasing as he'd not know he was without.​


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## Turrin (Jun 30, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Kakashi would've lost anyway, but the reason he lost so _bad_ was because he had no resolve.


Okay all I really care about is that you now agree he would have lost. So I'm going to move on from this point.



> He may have recovered at some points, *but he already was worried about his stamina after one Raikiri or so*, so I definitely don't believe he was fully recovered. He even had sweat marks and bruises visible!


The bold is not true. Kakashi had used 2 Rarikiri previously. Plus the main reason he was worried about his chakra levels was because he was creating a shadow clone for Raiden:
Naruto is stronger than him
Naruto is stronger than him

Kishi focusing on Kakashi's chakra levels after using a Kage Bushin (KB variant) is pretty standard, even when he goes into the battle at full stamina:

Chouza: "Are you all right on Chakra?"
Kakashi: "Since I used that Raiton shadow clone, I'm already down to under half of my Chakra level. / I don't want to be trying to fight an opponent of this level for an extended period of time."

Plus if we really want to get super detailed we can talk about the chakra Obito consumed before he even entered the battle with Naruto & B, creating and controlling the Edo Jinchuuriki Rikudo and again we can talk about the fact that he consumed chakra to fight Naruto & B before Kakashi arrived. So I think i'm being pretty fair when I just considered it even.



> That shouldn't be considered as help though. They were just present and Kakashi took advantage of the Jubi's presence. It's not like it was Obito vs Kakashi + Jubi. It was a 1v1 (the last part that is) and Kakashi created a situation that favoured him. Obito could've also put Kakashi on the defense by attacking the people he wants to protect, but Kakashi just made better use of the situation.


Okay I'm going to try to explain this one more time. 

So your premise is that Kakashi created a situation that favored him by targeting the Juubi; correct?

But, we already established the only reason Kakashi would be more of a threat to the Juubi than before when Obito could easily cock-block him would be due to Kurama chakra, which means he receiving help from Naruto. Inversely Madara was sitting on his ass doing nothing to help Obito stop Kakashi from warping Juubi.

Also whether Kakashi exploited the other people/entities (though I don't see how that can be the case due to point 1) & Obito didn't, that does not change the fact that the battle was impacted by these other people/entities and does not change the fact that they were helpful to Kakashi.




> I'm doing exactly the same. Looking at part of the battle.So? The ninja in the example also aided the last ninja. Does it really matter how many times and how the ninja helped in a discussion of the 1v1 part? No.


I'm going to try and say this another way so maybe you might understand better what i'm saying.

So basically what your doing is saying every time Kakashi would have lost & needed to be saved &/or recharged, starts another "round". So Kakashi may have lost the first 2 "rounds" as Naruto had to come in and cover &/or recharge Kakashi, but he won the third "round" in box land. 

My point is that it's really not fair to Obito that Kakashi gets the benefit of having rounds to win. For example it's two people play a fighting game on PS3; Player One Starts out with 3 lives, while Player Two Starts out with 1 life; and health & shit don't change between rounds, only when a player starts a new life are they restored. Player Two kills Player one twice, but than on Player One's last life he manages to win by a narrow margin. Okay Player 1 may have beaten Player 2, but that game is not very fair is it. Why?

Well Player 2 might looses some health, mana, etc... while killing Player 1 off the first two times, making him weaker when Player 1 comes in fully restored on his last life. But even if that's not the case Player 2 still would be at a disadvantage simply due to the fact that Player 1 gets the benefit of trail and error w/o repercussions for the first 2 lives to see what works, maybe Player 2 just got unlucky on the third life, etc...

The fair thing would be if Player 1 and Player 2, ether had one life or both had 3 lives. Not one has 3 and the other has 1.



> The fact that the situation is important doesn't mean that knowledge wasn't. The situation, the presence of the Jubi/Gedo Mazo and Kakashi's allies did not fundamentally change, yet Obito went from fighting four shinobi simultaneously to losing to Kakashi 1v1. What fundamentally changed is that Kakashi learned the mechanics of Kamui and the existence of Box World. It was because of this knowledge that he could turn the situation* to his advantage (intended in this specific way or not). *So, yeah, knowledge was key here. That's not to say the situation didn't play (an important) factor.


No dude Kakashi Kamui'ing Juubi was strategy that he had in mind before he learned the mechanics of  Obito's S-T Jutsu. Remember this:
Naruto is stronger than him

However Obito easily cock-blocked that attempt:
Naruto is stronger than him

Once again Kakashi attempts the same strategy in ch 628 of warping the Juubi:
Naruto is stronger than him

Please take note that knowledge had zero effect on the strategy Kakashi employed, since it was a strategy he'd already thought of before he had knowledge.

So if we go with your premise that Obito was forced to send the fight to box world in that instance; knowledge would not have been the change that forced Obito's hand. Now let's think what else changed, did Kakashi get a new hair cut or new forehead protector, naw it's not that. Oh I know maybe it's that big chakra shroud that he has which has been shown to super charge peoples abilities. Maybe that's the change.

So the reason Obito had to take things into box world is due to Naruto helping Kakashi by providing him the shroud and the change is therefore Naruto's ability to super charge people; not knowledge. In box world Kakashi simply out brawled Obito, which is something he could do w/o knowledge, so there too knowledge is pointless.



> Sure, they could be signs, but I don't see why I would see them as such. If Kishimoto wished to convey that stamina was running low he would make it clear. Obito would pant or have a thought bubble on it or something.


Kishimoto could easily state in the next chapter or so that Obito was conserving the last little bit of his chakra for eye of the moon or gedou rinnei tensei. Kishi is going to have to explain why he didn't use most of his abilities some how, so I'd have patience if I were you, instead of asking why Kishi didn't explain it in that specific chapter.



> Like I said before, I'm not sure how that is relevant, but okay.


I don't see how you don't see how it's relevant. The handicap means Naruto's win against Kakuzu does not confirm he'd be able to beat a non-handicap Kakuzu. This relates to Obito vs Kakashi, as Kakashi win also does not confirm he'd be able to beat a non-handicapped Obito.



> Asking someone about why you think I'm overrating something/someone is nitpicking?


Asking someone one about their made up quote that they are trying to pass of as real is nitpicking?



> It basically said that Kakashi and co were prepared to deal with the Rinnegan's abilities, but it's not like preparation is a benefit or anything, right?
> 
> The way Kishimoto had Guy note that they had counters should by itself indicate the importance of knowledge (Kakashi previously died for).


Not really considering Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, and B would stomp anyway. I honestly think that the whole comment was just Kishimoto's BS excuse for why the Edo Jin couldn't use the 6 Paths Jutsu.



> My intent was to explain why I think it was likely. If I could prove it, I wouldn't say I think it likely, but I would call it a fact.


I don't think you proved it was "likely" just that it was possible. But I'll agree to disagree on this one.



> I do believe Kakashi could've avoided Obito's attack if he wanted to, especially with the shroud, because of the extra panel. Although at the moment he did miss his opportunity to one-shot the Jubi. Kakashi was completely prepared to be warped and in fact got the upper hand out of it. So, it seems Kakashi was willingly going through with this or his reflexes are just godly.


This doesn't make sense. Kakashi has "!!" when Obito grabs him. So he was caught by surprise and was grabbed before he could react to evade. Kakashi knew he was going to be warped because of the extra panel, but there was nothing he could do about it, your kind of screwed once Obito grabs you (unless your the fourth) as he can warp you at a moments notice. Again if Kakashi could have stopped Obito from warping him and Kamui'd the Juubi he's not such an idiot that he wouldn't have gone for that.



> Without knowledge of Box World, Kakashi would probably figure Obito would just phase through his Raikiri and not opt for this effective brawl style in the first place. He'd be wary of Obito's phasing as he'd not know he was without.


What else is Kakashi going to do but brawl. What is he going to just stand there and die lol. In Ch 595 no one had knowledge ether, but still we had Gai & Naruto attempting to brawl with Obito as that was their only option. It's Kakashi's only option as well. 

Plus this is something it would take Kakashi at max a few seconds to figure out. The moment Obito starts dodging Kakashi's attacks instead of simply phasing through, Kakashi is going to know something is up. 

So at the very best this massive influence of knowledge you've been talking about's only real impact would maybe be that the battle is a bit longer in box dimension with Kakashi playing it a little more defensively at first, but ultimately Obito is still not able to win against Kakashi as eventually he'll be out brawled. So the conclusion does not change. So once again circumstance >>> Knowledge in this instance.


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## BlazingInferno (Jul 1, 2013)

All that build up and Kakashi is the one to beat him. Fuck you Kishi, fuck you.


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## Sniffers (Jul 1, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The bold is not true. Kakashi had used 2 Rarikiri previously. Plus the main reason he was worried about his chakra levels was because he was creating a shadow clone for Raiden:
> this
> Link removed
> 
> ...


I only count one, but I said "_one Raikiri or so_" anyway. Also, he was already worried about his chakra levels, but had to create a clone regardless. Not the other way around.​


Turrin said:


> Okay I'm going to try to explain this one more time.
> 
> So your premise is that Kakashi created a situation that favored him by targeting the Juubi; correct?
> 
> ...


Madara not taking the fight seriously is his mistake. Arrogance is a valid weakness. We know both Madara and Obito wished to protect the Jubi. Obito had a very powerful ally too, so lets be fair about that.​


Turrin said:


> I'm going to try and say this another way so maybe you might understand better what i'm saying.
> 
> So basically what your doing is saying every time Kakashi would have lost & needed to be saved &/or recharged, starts another "round". So Kakashi may have lost the first 2 "rounds" as Naruto had to come in and cover &/or recharge Kakashi, but he won the third "round" in box land.


Yes. 



Turrin said:


> My point is that it's really not fair to Obito that Kakashi gets the benefit of having rounds to win. For example it's two people play a fighting game on PS3; Player One Starts out with 3 lives, while Player Two Starts out with 1 life; and health & shit don't change between rounds, only when a player starts a new life are they restored. Player Two kills Player one twice, but than on Player One's last life he manages to win by a narrow margin. Okay Player 1 may have beaten Player 2, but that game is not very fair is it. Why?
> 
> Well Player 2 might looses some health, mana, etc... while killing Player 1 off the first two times, making him weaker when Player 1 comes in fully restored on his last life. But even if that's not the case Player 2 still would be at a disadvantage simply due to the fact that Player 1 gets the benefit of trail and error w/o repercussions for the first 2 lives to see what works, maybe Player 2 just got unlucky on the third life, etc...
> 
> The fair thing would be if Player 1 and Player 2, ether had one life or both had 3 lives. Not one has 3 and the other has 1.


The way Obito lost had nothing to do with running low on "_mana_" as far as we can tell, so Kakashi's victory was valid. If Obito lost due to lack of chakra or some wound he received prior to the 1v1 I would agree the conclusion cannot be drawn.

The trial-and-error is basically the increase in knowledge on how the opponent fights.​


Turrin said:


> No dude Kakashi Kamui'ing Juubi was strategy that he had in mind before he learned the mechanics of  Obito's S-T Jutsu. Remember this:
> Link removed
> 
> However Obito easily cock-blocked that attempt:
> ...


The strategy of warping the Jubi didn't change, no. Kakashi tried to despite knowing that Obito negated it last time. Why? Either he somehow knew Obito couldn't negate it anymore or he figured that if he was quick enough he could succeed before Obito interfered by waiting for the opening. Either way, Kakashi used past knowledge to base this new attack on which forced Obito's hand on to deal with Kakashi the way he did.​


Turrin said:


> Kishimoto could easily state in the next chapter or so that Obito was conserving the last little bit of his chakra for eye of the moon or gedou rinnei tensei. Kishi is going to have to explain why he didn't use most of his abilities some how, so I'd have patience if I were you, instead of asking why Kishi didn't explain it in that specific chapter.


If that information comes to light then that changes the conclusion. For now, though...



Turrin said:


> I don't see how you don't see how it's relevant. The handicap means Naruto's win against Kakuzu does not confirm he'd be able to beat a non-handicap Kakuzu. This relates to Obito vs Kakashi, as Kakashi win also does not confirm he'd be able to beat a non-handicapped Obito.


I cleared up a few times that it is about the *logic* that Naruto's accomplishment of succeeding in doing something _alone_ is valid despite his _prior help_. It's completely irrelevant if Naruto's goal was to beat (a weakened) Kakuzu or just to land the FRS. Both come down to the same result anyway.​


Turrin said:


> Asking someone one about their made up quote that they are trying to pass of as real is nitpicking?


Yeah, because it was not made up, just badly quoted. No ill intentions as you are making it seem right now or anything.​


Turrin said:


> Not really considering Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, and B would stomp anyway. I honestly think that the whole comment was just Kishimoto's BS excuse for why the Edo Jin couldn't use the 6 Paths Jutsu.


The statement obviously indicates the importance of knowledge or having counters, whether you think it's a BS excuse or not.​


Turrin said:


> This doesn't make sense. Kakashi has "!!" when Obito grabs him. So he was caught by surprise and was grabbed before he could react to evade. Kakashi knew he was going to be warped because of the extra panel, but there was nothing he could do about it, your kind of screwed once Obito grabs you (unless your the fourth) as he can warp you at a moments notice. Again if Kakashi could have stopped Obito from warping him and Kamui'd the Juubi he's not such an idiot that he wouldn't have gone for that.


Did Obito have a hold of Kakashi at the "_!!_"? Kakashi's right shoulder is still free. You make it sound as though if Kakashi could've evaded that he'd also should be able to pull off a one-shot on the Jubi with one move or something...​


Turrin said:


> What else is Kakashi going to do but brawl. What is he going to just stand there and die lol. In Ch 595 no one had knowledge ether, but still we had Gai & Naruto attempting to brawl with Obito as that was their only option. It's Kakashi's only option as well.


Naruto and Guy were working together. Unless Kakashi would jump in like that with no back up I don't think you have much of an argument. Kakashi would logically be way more careful than just this brawl-type fight. Wait, you admit to this in the next section. What was the point of this?​ 


Turrin said:


> Plus this is something it would take Kakashi at max a few seconds to figure out. The moment Obito starts dodging Kakashi's attacks instead of simply phasing through, Kakashi is going to know something is up.
> 
> So at the very best this massive influence of knowledge you've been talking about's only real impact would maybe be that the battle is a bit longer in box dimension with Kakashi playing it a little more defensively at first, but ultimately Obito is still not able to win against Kakashi as eventually he'll be out brawled. So the conclusion does not change. So once again circumstance >>> Knowledge in this instance.


First you argue about them maybe being low on stamina and then you argue the fight being longer, and hence them expending more energy, wouldn't matter lol.​


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## Turrin (Jul 1, 2013)

@Sniffers 

I'm going to try and shorten this and do away with some of the extra points that aren't really necessary to address the core issue. Again I'm going to go back to your original point of "Knowledge" being the "key". 

Now from my understanding the two remaining benefits that your claiming knowledge had are:

1. Due to past knowledge Kakashi knew his warp on the Juubi would work in ch 628, hence him attempting the strategy again.

2. Due to past knowledge Kakashi allowed himself to get warped as he knew Box Land would be advantageous to himself

3. Due to past knowledge Kakashi was more willing to brawl in Box Land and stamina issues


So I'll address three points.

1. This first point really doesn't address the issue I brought up last post. Maybe Kakashi did at least contemplate his prior knowledge before making his move in ch 628. But my point is that this was Kakashi's first move before he had knowledge anyway. So if we put a no knowledge Kakashi in the same scenario, no knowledge Kakashi is also going to attempt to warp the Juubi. So does the knowledge Kakashi gained in the battle really matter here, no not so much. What mattered more was Kyuubi Shroud vs Non-Kyuubi Shroud.

2. I find this an especially weak premise because what could Kakashi have done to escape at that point. Once Obito's grabbed you he can warp you at any time. Even if you want to say that Obito's hand wasn't on Kakashi's shoulder in the initial "!!" -- which I think it was and it just looks weird due to perspective -- in the very next panel it's already on his shoulder. By the time Kakashi realized Obito was there, Obito's hand was ether on his shoulder or a centimeters away from it, again the only one we've seen evade Obito's clutches in similar scenario with Obito's hand that close is Minato with FTG; Kakashi does not have that speed, so it's unrealistic to assume he could have reacted there.

3. Stamina was never an issue for Kakashi in that instance because he was just recently recharged by Naruto yet again. It was Obito's stamina, which I said might be an issue. Kakashi playing defense a little bit longer than in the actual battle would only help him if Obito was running low on stamina, as it would just serve to tire Obito out more. 

But yes I will concede that knowledge effected  "round 2"  insofar as w/o knowledge "round 2" might have gone on a bit longer, before Kakashi ultimately once again prevailed. 

So knowledge probably had some small impact, but going back to your original post there is no way that I can see knowledge as the "key".

Looking at the facts it seems to me that the "key" was in-fact Naruto's aid. Which makes sense considering Kishi always had Naruto set up as the "key" to defeating Obito ever since the Minato flashback or heck even J-man's talk with the Toad scroll.


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## Sniffers (Jul 1, 2013)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kakashi didn't attempt to warp the Jubi for quite a while for a reason. In fact, we learn that Kakashi had been waiting for an opening. The only reason to do so is because he had learned from the earlier attempt. Kakashi's timing was such that it overlapped with Obito's attack, and somehow Obito could or did not simply negate Kakashi's Kamui and actually had to warp them both.
Kakashi was completely fine with being teleported, whether he could or couldn't struggle, he wouldn't. In fact, he was prepared to continue the fight in Box World. Without knowledge of their destination I honestly do not believe Kakashi would so quickly counter attack in Box World, where he basically had Obito at his mercy almost immediately.
Kakashi was recharged, but then there was off-screen fighting. Kakashi also lost the shroud before Naruto tired, implying great consumption. Again, neither seemed to be limited by lack of stamina. If next chapter it is noted that Obito lost due to lack of stamina, that changes things, but until then that does not seem to have been an issue.
Naruto was helping from the very beginning. It was only after they understood Kamui that they could counter attack properly. So knowledge is key. This was also the case in the 1v1 as explained in point 2. If Naruto's help was key, then Obito could've simply teleported back after seeing Kakashi no longer had the shroud and was no longer an immediate threat to the Jubi. Unless of course Kakashi's Kamui was still a threat even without the shroud, which is possible considering that was also the case with the Gedo Mazo.​


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## Turrin (Jul 1, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Kakashi didn't attempt to warp the Jubi for quite a while for a reason. In fact, we learn that Kakashi had been waiting for an opening. The only reason to do so is because he had learned from the earlier attempt. Kakashi's timing was such that it overlapped with Obito's attack, and somehow Obito could or did not simply negate Kakashi's Kamui and actually had to warp them both.
> Kakashi was completely fine with being teleported, whether he could or couldn't struggle, he wouldn't. In fact, he was prepared to continue the fight in Box World. Without knowledge of their destination I honestly do not believe Kakashi would so quickly counter attack in Box World, where he basically had Obito at his mercy almost immediately.
> Kakashi was recharged, but then there was off-screen fighting. Kakashi also lost the shroud before Naruto tired, implying great consumption. Again, neither seemed to be limited by lack of stamina. If next chapter it is noted that Obito lost due to lack of stamina, that changes things, but until then that does not seem to have been an issue.
> Naruto was helping from the very beginning. It was only after they understood Kamui that they could counter attack properly. So knowledge is key. This was also the case in the 1v1 as explained in point 2. If Naruto's help was key, then Obito could've simply teleported back after seeing Kakashi no longer had the shroud and was no longer an immediate threat to the Jubi. Unless of course Kakashi's Kamui was still a threat even without the shroud, which is possible considering that was also the case with the Gedo Mazo.​



1. You are just repeating an argument that does not address my point. Again my point is that, I already illustrated that target Juubi was Kakashi's initial strategy before he had the knowledge you claim is key. So once again if Kakashi is put in that scenario w/o that knowledge, he'd still target Juubi as that would be his goto strategy. This is the point i'd like to see addressed.

2. Why does it matter if Kakashi was fine with it or not, when he could not avoid the warp regardless? Kakashi reacted quicker once dropped in the dimension because he was simply a bit faster than Obito, this is also something that was illustrated in their brawl and it's how Kakashi managed to kick Obito to the ground. I mean maybe knowledge made Kakashi clamer, but again this of minor impact comparatively to Naruto.

3.There was off screen Genjutsu fighting, which has never been portrayed as very draining to the individual, see the Itachi vs Sasuke battle where sick Itachi did the same thing with less stamina than Itachi and than still had plenty of stamina to use MS several times among other jutsu.


I agree that knowledge mattered when fighting Obito in the real world, hence why Obito went from taking on Gai, Naruto, and Kakashi to just loosing to Kakashi and Naruto. However what I don't agree with is that knowledge was a major factor to Kakashi defeating Obito's loss in Box land. I also do not agree that Kakashi has shown the ability to win a standard 1v1 in the real world just because he now has knowledge. I thought I had made these distinctions clear already.

If Obito simply teleported back than Kakashi would have also teleported back and Naruto would have been there to support Kakashi again. So that doesn't really work out.


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## Sniffers (Jul 1, 2013)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, it was his go-to strategy from the beginning, then it got countered. That's why he waited for that specific opening where the chances of Obito countering his effects were minimal. That's why he waited for the right opportunity. When the opportunity came Obito was forced to take drastic measures. How do you not see Kakashi waiting for that moment was based on the very knowledge of Obito's ability?
I do not believe for a second it was just about speed. Familiarity with the effects and the location definitely make a difference in ones ability to recover. Recovery from the momentum of Kamui is experience, plus I very much believe that if you were to suddenly be teleported you'd need a (split) second to take in the surroundings, a moment to orientate yourself in this new world.
There was off-panel fighting before the 1v1 and after Naruto "_recharged_" Kakashi.

If Kakashi teleported back, Naruto would've been out of Kyubi juice himself. So that works out.

After inspecting this page, it actually kind of looks like _Kakashi_ was the one to Kamui them both. The teleport spirals seem to surround Kakashi's MS. That would clarify why Obito so hopelessly fell to the floor and Kakashi didn't. Not at all sure, about this though.​


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## Turrin (Jul 1, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Yeah, it was his go-to strategy from the beginning, then it got countered. That's why he waited for that specific opening where the chances of Obito countering his effects were minimal. That's why he waited for the right opportunity. When the opportunity came Obito was forced to take drastic measures. How do you not see Kakashi waiting for that moment was based on the very knowledge of Obito's ability?
> I do not believe for a second it was just about speed. Familiarity with the effects and the location definitely make a difference in ones ability to recover. Recovery from the momentum of Kamui is experience, plus I very much believe that if you were to suddenly be teleported you'd need a (split) second to take in the surroundings, a moment to orientate yourself in this new world.
> There was off-panel fighting before the 1v1 and after Naruto "_recharged_" Kakashi.
> 
> ...



1. Dude are you just ignoring my point and trolling now? For the Third time that does not address my point, that if we took Kakashi's knowledge away he'd still act the same way, using Kamui against Juubi, because that was his first move w/o knowledge. 

2. Dude if it had to do with experience than Obito should have reacted first as he is certainly more familiar with this than Kakashi. And no I don't know how it feels to teleport lol. Kakashi got the drop on Obito in the actual brawl so I don't know why it's so hard to accept he did so here, especially since Obito seemed to land in an awkward way falling down:
this page

3. I really have to ask again are you just trolling? Because you once again are literally just repeating an argument I already addressed: .

There was off screen Genjutsu fighting, which has never been portrayed as very draining to the individual, see the Itachi vs Sasuke battle where sick Itachi did the same thing with less stamina than Itachi and than still had plenty of stamina to use MS several times among other jutsu.

As for this other stuff can we just cut that out, because I don't see why it even matters. Does it matter who warped who to Box Land and does it matter why Kakashi didn't teleport back? What matters is that Obito for whatever reason fought Kakashi in a situation that was disadvantageous to him. The rest seems like pointless nitpicking to me that strays from the point.


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## Sniffers (Jul 1, 2013)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does address the point. Kakashi didn't attempt to Kamui just to have it negated by Obito. He waited for the right moment because he knew any other attempt would be futile. Knowing when to strike is important intel. Would Kakashi have waited until that opening if he didn't have that intel? No, he would've most likely attempted to teleport the Jubi earlier and fail. Stop saying I'm trolling everytime when you are simply missing the point.
I found Obito falling strange as well. If he initiated the teleport why does he come out so poorly? Obito may have more experience than Kakashi, but that doesn't necessarily mean he can recover better. They're different people. Also, there is a real difference between experiencing something a first time as opposed to a third or fourth time. When you know what to expect you are just better prepared.
Me trolling? You addressed the wrong part of the fight. I agree that Genjutsu battles aren't very draining but that's not really the part I was referring to, was it? What part was I referring to? Let me quote myself:
"_There was off-panel fighting before the 1v1 and after Naruto "recharged" Kakashi._"​So the part *before* the 1v1. You addressed a part *during* the 1v1. I referred to the part from around here to here; the off-panelling in-between. How many more times will your lack of reading comprehension result in you falsely accusing me of trolling? Geez.

It matters, because it says something about their strategy. If Obito's objective was to prevent Kakashi from one-shotting the Kyubi and that was only possible due to Naruto's chakra, Obito had no reason to stay in Box World to have his ass handed to him. Now if Kakashi was able to one-shot the Jubi without the shroud, then Obito had reason to keep Kakashi busy. That also means that Naruto's "_help_", i.e. the shroud, was irrelevant to Kakashi forcing Obito into the disadvantageous position in the first place.​


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## KibaforHokage (Jul 1, 2013)

Could it be possible that the part we see is actually the end of the fight? I mean isn't there like a good  5 chapters between you see them again. Maybe the real fight transpired during  that time


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## son_michael (Jul 2, 2013)

DanielTimothy said:


> Sorry to hate but this chapter has broken me. Obito should've warped back and slumped kakashi's dead body at the feet of Minato, Gai and Naruto like "sup sensei". It would've been Obito's decent into darkness, the point of no point of return and confirmed him as the final villain.
> 
> Reasons I am butthurt about this chapter:
> 1. Obito in my opinion has more solid motives than Madara. Yes I buy the whole 'you let rin die' speech, people do crazy things when they're in love. Also he is much more interesting, the parallels with Naruto in personality when they were younger he served as an anti naruto. And a lesson for Naruto that some people can become beyond saving.
> ...



I appreciate this rant


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## Turrin (Jul 2, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> It does address the point. Kakashi didn't attempt to Kamui just to have it negated by Obito. He waited for the right moment because he knew any other attempt would be futile. Knowing when to strike is important intel. Would Kakashi have waited until that opening if he didn't have that intel? No, he would've most likely attempted to teleport the Jubi earlier and fail.




No it really doesn't. Your saying due to knowledge Kakashi knew his regular Kamui didn't work, so he waited till he had the shroud. But what I'm saying is if we placed no knowledge Kakashi in that same scenario with the shroud, he'd also target Juubi, as that was his initial move. The outcome would have been the same regardless, because what matters here is the shroud empowering Kakashi and making him more dangerous, not so much the knowledge



> I found Obito falling strange as well. If he initiated the teleport why does he come out so poorly?* Obito may have more experience than Kakashi, but that doesn't necessarily mean he can recover better. *They're different people. Also, there is a real difference between experiencing something a first time as opposed to a third or fourth time. When you know what to expect you are just better prepared.


You just told me experience mattered and now your telling me it doesn't. To me the reason why I see the experience argument as BS is Kakashi has sharingan meaning his perception is enhanced to the point of absurdity, i think the Sharingan would allow Kakashi to get his barings in Box Land enough to stop himself from falling and attack Obito, regardless of if he's been there or not before.

Here's another interpretation, perhaps like you said Kakashi out warped Obito in that instance, due to the fact that his Kamui was empowered by the Kyuubi shroud. I can buy that way more than this experience argument. 



> Me trolling? You addressed the wrong part of the fight. I agree that Genjutsu battles aren't very draining but that's not really the part I was referring to, was it? What part was I referring to? Let me quote myself:


Dude if you don't want me to say your trolling than clarify your post more, because how the hell am I suppose to know what part your referring to in a 40+ chapter battle. All i'm asking for is link to the page.



> So the part before the 1v1. You addressed a part during the 1v1. I referred to the part from around here to here; the off-panelling in-between.


Sakura heals Kakashi restoring his stamina here:
his clone failed to break Itachi's normal Sharingan Genjutsu

If you read the chapters Kakashi really doesn't use any chakra draining Jutsu from that point up until he gets the shroud. At that point he's running on Kyuubi chakra not his own and he only uses up that Kyuubi chakra on the Kamui where he attempts to warp the Juubi. So his own stamina should be fine going into box land.

In-fact you should feel lucky that I'm assuming Kakashi used up all the Kyuubi chakra before going to box land and was only running on his own stamina, as the disappearance of the shroud doesn't necessarily mean all the kyuubi chakra was gone from his system considering we have seen Kakashi have kyuubi chakra empowering him even w/o the shroud:
his clone failed to break Itachi's normal Sharingan Genjutsu

Also this argument of yours is just stupid, I mean really your going to sit here and say chakra and stamina was a handicap for KAKASHI lol, the guy whose been healed & recharged a bunch of times, meanwhile Obito is still fighting on his own stamina. 



> It matters, because it says something about their strategy. If Obito's objective was to prevent Kakashi from one-shotting the Kyubi and that was only possible due to Naruto's chakra, Obito had no reason to stay in Box World to have his ass handed to him. Now if Kakashi was able to one-shot the Jubi without the shroud, then Obito had reason to keep Kakashi busy. That also means that Naruto's "help", i.e. the shroud, was irrelevant to Kakashi forcing Obito into the disadvantageous position in the first place.


But we've already established Obito can easily counter Kakashi w/o the shroud's attempt to warp the Juubi. So why do I need to argue this shit, when we know it's false?

As for why Obito stayed in Box realm, it's not like Obito can view the outside world and make sure Naruto is still not in BM. Nor am I sure Obito knows that Naruto needs to be in BM to give just one person chakra; Sai didn't seem to know after all. Also Narut gave countless Medics a chakra shroud, including Sakura, who could have super charged Kakashi for another Kamui attempt. And once again I go back to Obito may have simply feared being double teamed in general. 

So to me there are countless reasons for why Obito would want to remain in Box Land, but it really doesn't matter, all that matters is that Kakashi defeated a handicapped Obito.


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## Sniffers (Jul 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> No it really doesn't. *Your saying due to knowledge Kakashi knew his regular Kamui didn't work, so he waited till he had the shroud.* But what I'm saying is if we placed no knowledge Kakashi in that same scenario with the shroud, he'd also target Juubi, as that was his initial move. The outcome would have been the same regardless, because what matters here is the shroud empowering Kakashi and making him more dangerous, not so much the knowledge


No, that's *not* what I'm saying. Kakashi striked when Obito likely wasn't paying enough attention to defending the Jubi or when negating Kamui would be difficult or dangerous for him. If Kakashi did not know he had to wait for a weak moment, he'd have attempted the Kamui earlier and see it fail.​


Turrin said:


> You just told me experience mattered and now your telling me it doesn't. To me the reason why I see the experience argument as BS is Kakashi has sharingan meaning his perception is enhanced to the point of absurdity, i think the Sharingan would allow Kakashi to get his barings in Box Land enough to stop himself from falling and attack Obito, regardless of if he's been there or not before.


It's possible, but I consider it unlikely. Even Minato with his godly reflexes fell to the ground due to the momentum of Kamui, yet I'm to expect Kakashi would fare better in a completely alien dimension? Highly unlikely.​


Turrin said:


> Here's another interpretation, perhaps like you said Kakashi out warped Obito in that instance, due to the fact that his Kamui was empowered by the Kyuubi shroud. I can buy that way more than this experience argument.


Outwarped? You mean that Kakashi warped Obito in stead of vice versa? If so, then I'll have to argue that the shroud was already gone at the point Kakashi even performed Kamui.



Turrin said:


> Dude if you don't want me to say your trolling than clarify your post more, because how the hell am I suppose to know what part your referring to in a 40+ chapter battle. All i'm asking for is link to the page.


If you had read "_before the 1v1_" then there's no excuse for you to refer to something _during_ the 1v1. Your mistake, and I wouldn't make a big deal out of it because everyone makes mistakes, I don't mind, but I grow tired of your constant accusations of trolling at this point.​


Turrin said:


> Sakura heals Kakashi restoring his stamina here:
> here
> 
> If you read the chapters Kakashi really doesn't use any chakra draining Jutsu from that point up until he gets the shroud. At that point he's running on Kyuubi chakra not his own and he only uses up that Kyuubi chakra on the Kamui where he attempts to warp the Juubi. So his own stamina should be fine going into box land.
> ...


One, I'm not sure Sakura restores Kakashi's stamina completely; and two, almost the entire Alliance has been attacking and defending for a while. Just because we didn't *see* Kakashi participate doesn't mean he didn't.

Also, I'm not saying chakra and stamina was a handicap for Kakashi. You are misrepresenting my argument AGAIN! My entire point is that neither seemed to have crippling troubles with their stamina during the 1v1.​


Turrin said:


> But we've already established Obito can easily counter Kakashi w/o the shroud's attempt to warp the Juubi. So why do I need to argue this shit, when we know it's false?
> 
> As for why Obito stayed in Box realm, it's not like Obito can view the outside world and make sure Naruto is still not in BM. Nor am I sure Obito knows that Naruto needs to be in BM to give just one person chakra; Sai didn't seem to know after all. Also Narut gave countless Medics a chakra shroud, including Sakura, who could have super charged Kakashi for another Kamui attempt. And once again I go back to Obito may have simply feared being double teamed in general.
> 
> So to me there are countless reasons for why Obito would want to remain in Box Land, but it really doesn't matter, all that matters is that Kakashi defeated a handicapped Obito.


It's the *timing* why Kakashi would've succeeded. He was waiting for the right moment as mentioned. The shroud most likely has nothing to do with the timing.

Naruto was panting and clearly running out of juice. I figure Obito can put one and one together. Sakura cannot distribute Kyubi shrouds. Obito feared to be double-teamed, yet Madara just sat there. Those "_countless_" reasons are terribly weak so far.​


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## Illusive Frame (Jul 5, 2013)

Let's just put it like this.

MS/Rinnegan/Mokuton Obito>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MS Kakashi
MS Obito>MS Kakashi
Base Obito w.Mokuton and Human Path>Base Kakashi
Base Kakashi who got healed multiple times>Obito who only uses Taijutsu, small fireballs, is exhausted and never got healed. 

That is all.

And lol at people who say Kakashi was nerfed too. Put a full power Base Obito vs Full Power Base Kakashi and Obito still wins.


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## dante1729 (Jan 12, 2018)

wow that theory was just true


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## NW (Jan 12, 2018)




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## Karyu Endan (Jan 12, 2018)

Why the sudden bump?

At any rate, all this debate over explaining how Kakashi managing to best Obito was possible is very humorous in hindsight, given that Obito _let Kakashi win_ and stab him in the heart to remove the seal placed on him that prevented him from becoming Juubi Jin.

The guy _lost on purpose._ Nothing more needs to be said.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Skilatry (Jan 12, 2018)

It's funny how in the heat of the moment people gave all these convoluted explanations for events but in hindsight the answer is simple:

MS Obito > MS Kakashi > Base Kakashi > Base Obito


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 12, 2018)

Base Obito>Base Kakashi 

True heir of Sharingan
Weapons like gunbai
Durability,  moktun

Reactions: Agree 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 13, 2018)

Professor83 said:


> Base Obito>Base Kakashi
> 
> True heir of Sharingan
> Weapons like gunbai
> Durability,  moktun



Base Kakashi > Base Obito

1. True heir of the purple lighting
2. Weapons like Raikiri Kunai
3. Deception, Raiton clones, Strategy.

GG @Professor83


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## dante1729 (Jan 13, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Base Kakashi > Base Obito
> 
> 1. True heir of the purple lighting
> 2. Weapons like Raikiri Kunai
> ...


Base Obito would rape kakashi badly.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Coolest Guy! 2


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## kayz (Jan 15, 2018)

Base Obito beats base Kakashi


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## Mar55 (Jan 15, 2018)

kayz said:


> Base Obito beats base Kakashi


Like a red headed step child.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 15, 2018)

This thread was from almost 5 years ago. Why necro?

Reactions: Agree 1


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