# Guy vs Orochimaru



## Ashi (Aug 22, 2016)

Restriction: 8th gate, ET
Manga Knowledge
IC


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## Bonly (Aug 22, 2016)

Gai can't really put down Orochi do to Oral rebirth, his white snake healing and the ability to blend into the earth so Gai is just gonna be wearing himself out by using the gates and defending from Orochi's attacks though if Orochi uses his true form then Gai is gonna be screwed by Orochi's poison and finished off. Only way Gai is winning by outlasting but that's not likely so yeah I'd favor Orochi winning more times then not


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 22, 2016)

The only way Guy can defeat Orochimaru is with Hirudora, and Orochimaru can evade that by traveling through the ground with Doton or LAC. So he'll be able to avoid Guy's only finisher, and he can easily tank and regenerate from the rest of his arsenal based on everything he has dealt with so far in the Manga. He could also entangle him with Nan no Kaizo and bite him to place a cursed seal on him to bind his movements, and/or have some of his snakes poison him. With his true form, he'd be able to poison Guy and paralyze him as well; leaving him open to being killed in a number of ways. Orochimaru wins with mid difficulty.

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## Mithos (Aug 23, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The only way Guy can defeat Orochimaru is with Hirudora, and Orochimaru can evade that by traveling through the ground with Doton or LAC. So he'll be able to avoid Guy's only finisher, and he can easily tank and regenerate from the rest of his arsenal based on everything he has dealt with so far in the Manga. He could also entangle him with Nan no Kaizo and bite him to place a cursed seal on him to bind his movements, and/or have some of his snakes poison him. With his true form, he'd be able to poison Guy and paralyze him as well; leaving him open to being killed in a number of ways. Orochimaru wins with mid difficulty.



How does Hirudora defeat Orochimaru? Even a direct hit wouldn't kill him, and he could Oral Rebirth away the damage. Hirudora also wouldn't be enough to put down Yamata no Orochi, either.

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## Jad (Aug 23, 2016)

Gai should win. Hirudora would kill him. And if he does live, which would surprise me, Gai hovers over his damaged body almost instantly after the explosion leaving no room for Orochimaru to move a single finger, like with Kisame. At which he is left with nothing but tor Gai to do whatever he wants. 7 Gated punch direct to the head at point blank should do it.


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## Mithos (Aug 23, 2016)

Jad said:


> 7 Gated punch direct to the head at point blank should do it.



A punch from _Tsunade_ directly to his jaw didn't kill him; a punch from Gai isn't going to do it.

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## Jad (Aug 23, 2016)

Mithos said:


> A punch from _Tsunade_ directly to his jaw didn't kill him; a punch from Gai isn't going to do it.


Doesn't have to be one. Can be a couple a hundred. Ehh, Gai forced an annoyed Juubidara back in 7 Gates, any disparity in strength and he'd have not budged a cm. So I tend to believe a punch from 7 Gates Gai would kill Orochimaru.


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## Mithos (Aug 23, 2016)

Jad said:


> Doesn't have to be one. Can be a couple a hundred. Ehh, Gai forced an annoyed Juubidara back in 7 Gates, any disparity in strength and he'd have not budged a cm. So I tend to believe a punch from 7 Gates Gai would kill Orochimaru.



What does "forcing" him back have to do with his strength? We've _seen_ Gated Gai kick shouten Kisame in the face and punch a wounded Kisame in the stomach, and the most that happened each time was forcing him to spit up a little blood. Damage like that is meaningless to Orochimaru. 

The only time Orochimaru has ever felt threatened was from a Bijuudama. Everything else he has more or less tanked without trouble: He took the Totsuka sword through his entire mid-section and laughed it off (until its sealing effects kicked in); he was sliced into multiple pieces in his true form and it didn't do anything; a punch from the much stronger Tsunade only momentarily stunned him, then he got up mostly unharmed; he was sliced in half by KN4 and reattached his torso with a smirk. 

If Gai's blows are doing too much damage, he'll spit out his true form or transform into the Yamata no Orochi - neither of which Gai can stop him from doing. 

Someone like Orochimaru is a nightmare for Gai to deal with with taijutsu.


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## Jad (Aug 23, 2016)

1. To the head, not midsection
2. Gai went for knock out blow in 7 Gate
3. That was one kick from 6 Gate Gai early Part 2. I'm talking 7th.
4. Gai killed Shouten Kisame which share durability with original. Kisame even said Morning Peacock destroys target and marvelled at it.

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## ARGUS (Aug 23, 2016)

Orochimaru stated that a Kn4 TBB Is a one shot kill for him

Hirudora is atleast on the same level as that. So orochimaru Dies 
Unless people really Wna be daft enough to say he's more durable than Madaras v3 Susanoo  

And did someone seriously claim that orochimaru Fkn dodges hirudora?

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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 23, 2016)

Oro is simply a bad match up. Gai's only means of offense is physical damage. Orochimaru's whole skillset revolves around enduring physical damage. He soaks the damage, pretends like he is hurt or dead and finishes Gai when Gai is recovering. 



ARGUS said:


> Orochimaru stated that a Kn4 TBB Is a one shot kill for him
> 
> Hirudora is atleast on the same level as that. So orochimaru Dies
> Unless people really Wna be daft enough to say he's more durable than Madaras v3 Susanoo
> ...



Hirudora may or may not be on on that level, but they are different types of damage. Oro can likely use oral rebirth to survive Hirudora since it won't disintegrate his body like a Bijuudama would.


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## Android (Aug 23, 2016)

Inb4 Raikiri19 says base Gai would stomp on Oro ......

Orochi wins this , Gai's fighting style revolves around inflecting outer physical damage with his Taijutsu , Oro isvery well capable of tanking and recovering from anything Gai dishes out , and then he when Gai's time limite ends he's gonna catch a beating .


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## t0xeus (Aug 23, 2016)

Orochimaru is wasting chakra by regenerating, he isn't actually immortal in a sense that he can never be killed by physical hits.

Going by portrayal and Gai's 7th gate feats where he managed to break Madara's V3 Susanoo and then push JJ Madara back, he takes this comfortably in 7th gates with Hirudora which Orochimaru doesn't have reactions to dodge tbh.

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## LostSelf (Aug 23, 2016)

Depending how the battle plays out, Gai can give Oro a terrible surprise. The man has been hit by even rusty-tired Tsunade. I see him having a hard time keeping up with someone way faster than her with supersonic punches.

Or having troubles seeing said man. Oro is the man who's hit by anything thrown at him, dodging a Hirudora that traversed so fast that it greatly outpaced Madara's mid-sword swing from a considerable distance sounds like out of his dreams.

So, wether Oro goes Yamata no Orochi, Gai's going to be side-stepping all his attacks or speedblitzing him terribly and then will take him down with Hirudora.

Not to mention that Morning Peacok by itself can force Oro to use Oral Rebirth due to the fire it will stay, and that's wasting chakra.

Both can win, imo.

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## Ashi (Aug 23, 2016)

Lmao People actually buy the Immortal Orochimaru hype


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## LostSelf (Aug 23, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Lmao People actually buy the Immortal Orochimaru hype



If you're a Sannin, all hype and DB descriptions are literally right, no hyperbole added .

But i do see Oro hard to put down, even though hard to put down by no means is inmortal. Oro can't survive Jinton, an inmortal would.


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## Ashi (Aug 23, 2016)

> Orochi wins this , Gai's fighting style revolves around inflecting outer physical damage with his Taijutsu , Oro isvery well capable of tanking and recovering from anything Gai dishes out , and then he when Gai's time limite ends he's gonna catch a beating .




Orochimaru can tank asakujaku? and Hirudora?

Rlly now?


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## Mithos (Aug 23, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Orochimaru can tank asakujaku? and Hirudora?
> 
> Rlly now?



Well since he can spit out a new body and regenerate - yes.

Both Asakujaku and Hirudora left their victims _completely intact. _Being sliced in half, cut into pieces, and stabbed through the torso with a giant sword didn't do any serious damage to Orochimaru.

And neither of those attacks is taking down Yamata no Orochi, if Oro decides to use it.

These two techniques - Asakujaku and Hirudora - are some of the most overrated in the BD.



Jad said:


> 1. To the head, not midsection
> 2. Gai went for knock out blow in 7 Gate
> 3. That was one kick from 6 Gate Gai early Part 2. I'm talking 7th.
> 4. Gai killed Shouten Kisame which share durability with original. Kisame even said Morning Peacock destroys target and marvelled at it.



The 6th and 7th Gate don't seem to be drastically different in terms of regular striking power.

It "destroyed" the target but left its body completely intact. Killing Shouten Kisame in one shot is impressive, but Orochimaru is much, much harder to kill than Kisame is due to his modified body, white snake regeneration, true form, and Yamata no Orochi.

Then Hirudora failed to come close to killing Kisame, though it did render him unable to fight. It would do a lot of damage to Oro, but he can make himself a new body and be back at 100%. Unless Gai can kill him outright - which he can't based off what we've seen - he'll need to exhaust Oro's chakra reserves in order to win. The problem with that is Gai is one of the worst-suited fighters to win a battle of attrition or exhaust someone, because the Gates are so physically taxing.


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## Android (Aug 23, 2016)

Mithos said:


> These two techniques - Asakujaku and Hirudora - are some of the most overrated in the BD.


Especially Hirudora .

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## Lord Aizen (Aug 23, 2016)

Orochimaru cant die from physical attacks. Orochimaru is just a snake the body is a vessel it doesnt matter what guy does to the vessel. guy will tire himself out and lose

Afternoon tiger only stunned kisame for a bit of time. orochimaru oral rebirths out of that. Same thing happens if guy uses morning peacock.


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## Jad (Aug 23, 2016)

Morning peacock and Hirudora have been numerously, not once,  not twice, numerously called killing techniques. Even Kisame stated Morning Peacock destroys the target. He should know, it killed him. So someone of Orochimaru's durability should also die. It's funny how someone said Morning Peacock only amounted to a little blood when it hit Kisame. ONLY thing that happened. I mean did you forget the fact it killed the victim instantly, like it's described by Kishimoto a number of times. That's a massive oversight if I ever saw.

When you can make a serious Madara disappear for an entire chapter and lose his serious technique on the Hachibi, that technique will make Orochimaru, simply, die. And if he tries anything, Gai hovers over him and doesn't leave a TWITCH of a finger escape his eyesight.

There aren't many times in the manga a named character dies by the hands of another in the Naruto story. Let that sink.


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## Saru (Aug 23, 2016)

I would contest the notion that Orochimaru is immune to or can't be put down by physical attacks. IIRC, when Gai used Asakujaku on Kisame's 30% Chakra Substitute, that substitute's entire body was enveloped in flames that were extinguished only due to falling in a large body of water. Orochimaru is not immune or even resistant to that caliber of heat, and Oral Rebirth is a taxing technique which Orochimaru can only use a few times before tiring. Well, Gai can use Asakujaku a few times as well.

I don't think that Orochimaru could withstand a Hirudora without using Yamata no Orochi and/or Manda either, so Hirudora would most likely spell trouble if Gai landed a clean hit.

If Kuchiyose was restricted, I would probably give this match to Gai, but with Orochimaru's sea of snakes, nigh-instant snake shields, and Manda on top of Oral Rebirth, I think he's going to exhaust Gai's stamina and win.

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## Android (Aug 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't think that Orochimaru could withstand a Hirudora without using Yamata no Orochi and/or Manda either


Triple Rashmono ???


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## Jad (Aug 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Triple Rashmono ???


Why would that Matter?
1. Orochimaru needs to know a big attack is coming, and a serious Madara couldn't even finish a mid-swing on Naruto no more than a meter away when a tired Gai hit him with Hirudora a hundred meters away, or more.
2. Morning Peacock will be used in CQC range.

Have you noticed a pattern that when people use Gates, the opponent is almost always rendered in not being able to attack back. The only exceptions is when Gaara switched with a clone because of a inexperienced Genin Lee, and Kisame v. Gai (Hirudora/Shark) because they had a dialog going on. Any other time it's one sided beatdown.

Orochimaru should be no different because his speed is way below that of Gai that once Gai starts his combo on Orochimaru, it won't leave him any room to do anything. And I'm not sure how many Rebirths his got, I remember Sasuke could only do one after a few strong level ninjutsu techniques. But I think Gai can hit more times than Oro can barf.


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## Android (Aug 23, 2016)

Jad said:


> Why would that Matter?
> 1. Orochimaru needs to know a big attack is coming, and a serious Madara couldn't even finish a mid-swing on Naruto no more than a meter away when a tired Gai hit him with Hirudora a hundred meters away, or more.
> 2. Morning Peacock will be used in CQC range.
> 
> Have you noticed a pattern that when people use Gates, the opponent is almost always rendered in not being able to attack back. The only exceptions is when Gaara switched with a clone because of a inexperienced Genin Lee, and Kisame v. Gai (Hirudora/Shark) because they had a dialog going on. Any other time it's one sided beatdown.


I see , so he needs to see it coming first ......


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## Jad (Aug 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I see , so he needs to see it coming first ......



Not sure if you're teasing me.

But yeah. And honestly he sees it coming it'd be too late. It's wickedly fast on land like I said when he used it on Madara. Plus Hirudora is also a close range technique. Gai hits Orochinaru like he tried against Madara then follows up with Hirudora, and I think he wins. If that fails, he hits him again.

Gai was visibly taxed out and needed Lee to carry him. However he has shown even at his limit he can last in the 8 Gates with little reserves and throw techniques way more taxing then Hirudora - multiple times.

Gai is the only character to have ever used their strongest move in their worst state - Night Guy. I don't think a few Hirudora from a healthy Gai is that much compared to what his capable of.


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## Android (Aug 23, 2016)

Jad said:


> Not sure if you're teasing me.


Tease you ??!! why the hell would i do that ??!!


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## Empathy (Aug 24, 2016)

I don't think Orochimaru can be put down through physical means unless his body is totally disintegrated, which I don't believe Gai can do. Gai gets outlasted.

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## LostSelf (Aug 24, 2016)

Saru said:


> I would contest the notion that Orochimaru is immune to or can't be put down by physical attacks. IIRC, when Gai used Asakujaku on Kisame's 30% Chakra Substitute, that substitute's entire body was enveloped in flames that were extinguished only due to falling in a large body of water. Orochimaru is not immune or even resistant to that caliber of heat, and Oral Rebirth is a taxing technique which Orochimaru can only use a few times before tiring. Well, Gai can use Asakujaku a few times as well.
> 
> I don't think that Orochimaru could withstand a Hirudora without using Yamata no Orochi and/or Manda either, so Hirudora would most likely spell trouble if Gai landed a clean hit.



I agree with this. (Even though i don't think Manda would do much as Gai can just ignore it and appear in Oro's face). But Asakujaku's fire is something that people often forget or ignore. And like you said, Gai can use more than that.

I forgot about sea of snakes, though. But if Gai goes the AK route and doesn't leave a room for Oro, like he did to Kisame, i think the outlasted will be the tank. And Gai should be more than capable with his speed, and because Oro's even more cocky than Jiraiya.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2016)

I'm fairly confident that Oro can use oral rebirth more times than Gai can use Asakujaku. And once Oro gets caught by a technique it is very likely that he will be hiding behind or inside a snake the other time to soak up most of the damage.
Gai can ragdoll Oro as much as he likes, he isn't putting him down for good. Thats Oro's strong suit. You need to have very strong nukes or stuff that bypass conventional blunt trauma durability.
Now I would actually give Gai the win if he wasn't on a timer, but with the gates he is and he eventually exhausts himself.

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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 24, 2016)

Mithos said:


> How does Hirudora defeat Orochimaru? Even a direct hit wouldn't kill him, and he could Oral Rebirth away the damage. Hirudora also wouldn't be enough to put down Yamata no Orochi, either.


 Hirudora completely destroyed Edo Madara's V3 legged Susanoo and most likely his entire body since he was left out of commission for a short while afterwards. There's no way Orochimaru is going to survive that, but he shouldn't have any problem surviving Asakujaku.


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## Jad (Aug 24, 2016)

I don't understand where Orochimaru became a tank in the manga. I agree that a lot of attacks below the head can be ignored for the most part, but his head in the Manga was never touched for good reason. The only time was against Rusty Part 1 Tsunade who whammed him in the jaw. That punch though didn't look especially powerful from an illustrative point, that and considering right after she punched him she went old and brittle fairly quickly. And we know she isn't that great of a fighter nearing that point. So what else is there to suggest his head can take a beating without being comatose?  Am I missing something?

I mean Itachi with a kunai cut his hand off, so yeah.

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## Sapherosth (Aug 24, 2016)

I lol'ed quite a bit when I see people saying Hirudora will one-shot Oro. 

Kisame pretty much survived it, with all of his body intact. He was even ready to fight back. Orochimaru will just spit out a new body and laugh it off. 

Gai is getting outlasted here, or he'll have to kill himself and go 8th gates.


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## Jad (Aug 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I lol'ed quite a bit when I see people saying Hirudora will one-shot Oro.
> 
> Kisame pretty much survived it, with all of his body intact. He was even ready to fight back. Orochimaru will just spit out a new body and laugh it off.
> 
> Gai is getting outlasted here, or he'll have to kill himself and go 8th gates.


Got proof Orochimaru can survive trauma to the head like that?


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## t0xeus (Aug 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I lol'ed quite a bit when I see people saying Hirudora will one-shot Oro.
> 
> Kisame pretty much survived it, with all of his body intact. He was even ready to fight back. Orochimaru will just spit out a new body and laugh it off.
> 
> Gai is getting outlasted here, or he'll have to kill himself and go 8th gates.


Hirudora's size and power depends on Gai, he used a weaker one against Kisame than the one against Madara.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 24, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Hirudora's size and power depends on Gai, he used a weaker one against Kisame than the one against Madara.




The size looks pretty consistent to me. Can I see a scan where there's a difference? Or where Gai can control its strength? I mean, It was called a one hit kill technique by Gai.....


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## t0xeus (Aug 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The size looks pretty consistent to me. Can I see a scan where there's a difference? Or where Gai can control its strength? I mean, It was called a one hit kill technique by Gai.....


It's just a fast punch, depends on the user how fast he punches, right?

On top of that, base Gai Hirudora destroyed V3 Susanoo and probably Maddy's body as well, while 7th Gated Gai's Hirudora got through Daikodan and didn't damage Kisame that much which shows that Kishi is either ridiculously inconsistent with its strength or that the user can regulate its power.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Hirudora completely destroyed Edo Madara's V3 legged Susanoo and most likely his entire body



So you are saying that Kisame's body is alot tougher than V3 Susano'O ?



t0xeus said:


> On top of that, base Gai Hirudora destroyed V3 Susanoo and probably Maddy's body as well, .



But thats completely baseless.

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## Jad (Aug 24, 2016)

Does it matter though?  Orochimaru isn't Kisame. His survivability has nothing to do with Orochimaru because I don't remember him tanking attacks that Kisame has been hit with.

I am actually curious what Orochimaru feats are. And I'm talking specifically to the head area.


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## t0xeus (Aug 24, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But thats completely baseless.


See this over and over again, my reply will be same: Madara disappeared from the panels for quite a while after Hirudora connected, the branches immediately shattered, Hachibi stating that Gai wasn't just playing strong guy - everything from the author reaching to every reader of any IQ indicating Madara's V3 Susanoo got rekt.

If you don't see it, no reason to reply to me because that's all I've got, sorry.


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

Jad said:


> Does it matter though?  Orochimaru isn't Kisame. His survivability has nothing to do with Orochimaru because I don't remember him tanking attacks that Kisame has been hit with.
> 
> I am actually curious what Orochimaru feats are. And I'm talking specifically to the head area.



Sasuke chopped his white snake form into pieces, including at the neck area, and he just stuck himself back together. This is the same dude that got bisected, put himself together backward, then spun a full 180 degrees; he had a giant ethereal sword run through him and laughed at it until it revealed sealing properties. Where is the evidence that simply aiming a couple feet higher negates his whole immortality spiel? His anatomy obviously is unlike any other and he's never been even remotely fazed by any sort of physical attack, short of the prospect of complete disintegration.

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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Sasuke chopped his white snake form into pieces, including at the neck area, and he just stuck himself back together. This is the same dude that got bisected, put himself together backward, then spun a full 180 degrees; he had a giant ethereal sword run through him and laughed at it until it revealed sealing properties. Where is the evidence that simply aiming a couple feet higher negates his whole immortality spiel? His anatomy obviously is unlike any other and he's never been even remotely fazed by any sort of physical attack, short of the prospect of complete disintegration.




He cant surive being burned being asakujaku or being engulfed in hirudora so there's that


Also the guy switched bodies because he was bleeding out after basically gutting himself

but yeah sure he's immortal unstoppable and impossible to kill


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

Why not?


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Sasuke chopped his white snake form into pieces, including at the neck area, and he just stuck himself back together. This is the same dude that got bisected, put himself together backward, then spun a full 180 degrees; he had a giant ethereal sword run through him and laughed at it until it revealed sealing properties. Where is the evidence that simply aiming a couple feet higher negates his whole immortality spiel? His anatomy obviously is unlike any other and he's never been even remotely fazed by any sort of physical attack, short of the prospect of complete disintegration.


It's because of all that damage he was able to live but nothing implies damage to the head would allow him to live. You listed me feats I know of, but nothing suggests he can survive damage to the head just because you showed me attacks of which usually have snakes occupying said spaces.

I remember him dodging quite frantically a swipe from Kyuubi's claw to the face.


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

And what suggests he can't? He got hit directly by Kyuubi claws multiple times, including in the face.


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Why not?




Because he's not fire proof?

And the shock from both those moves would destroy his body


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> And what suggests he can't? He got hit directly by Kyuubi claws multiple times, including in the face.


Admittedly no one wants to get hit in the face. But that doesn't really void my remarks, as all your examples of his injuries have been areas snakes occupy. His true from almost specifically shows that his head, is well, not occupied. So I say have at it, his head seems like a good point of kill and nothing I've seen suggests his durable enough to take said shits from Gai. Unless you want to show me more instances his survived attacks that I would interest me and my point...


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Because he's fire proof?



No one in this manga has ever burned for longer than a few seconds from any fire that's not _Amaterasu_. _Amaterasu _is the only thing that's shown to function close to real world flames by spreading and continuing to burn excruciatingly unless extinguished. All other fire attacks in this manga stopped burning after a few seconds, regardless if they were extinguished or not; regular fire attacks are just treated as momentarily hot energy attacks. Sasuke set Orochimaru's head on fire and burned it for a good bit, but it stopped as soon his katon was finished, despite hair being extremely flammable. Itachi's arm was hit by fire hot enough to create cumulonimbus clouds, and all it did was burn up his sleeve and not spread to the rest of his clothing. Tsunade could physically punch fire away. If Orochimaru's _kawarimi _can escape _Amaterasu, _then there's no chance of _Asa Kujaku's _flames doing anything to Orochimaru. They didn't even burn the clothes on _Shoten _Kisame's body.



> And the shock from both those moves would destroy his body



Kisame was hit by both, and they never came close to doing anything of the sort; they don't function like nukes. They deal blunt and concussive force and cause burn injuries.



Jad said:


> Admittedly no one wants to get hit in the face. But that doesn't really void my remarks, as all your examples of his injuries have been areas snakes occupy. His true from almost specifically shows that his head, is well, not occupied. So I say have at it, his head seems like a good point of kill and nothing I've seen suggests his durable enough to take said shits from Gai. Unless you want to show me more instances his survived attacks that I would interest me and my point...



You and I have both read the same manga, so stop asking me to make up stuff we know doesn't exist. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. _Naruto_ isn't overtly gory, and the couple decapitations that have been shown were treated pretty dramatically. Orochimaru has smirked and laughed at attacks that obviously would instantly kill any normal shinobi, so it's not like a kunai between the eyes is all it takes to kill a literal immortal whose been portrayed as impossible to keep down throughout literally the entire series, all the way until the ending where he's going to outlive every other character. Sealing is always a much worse alternative to outright killing, but there's the small prospect they'll somehow escape. So why would Itachi, who had a clear and easy shot for the head, opt to seal Orochimaru instead of put an end to him permanently; because this is manga where a giant sword through the face won't be shown and it wouldn't have done any good anyway. Why would Hiruzen go through the trouble of having to use a jutsu that removes souls, if all he needs to do if connect a head shot with a kunai? Gai can't win em all.

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## Jad (Aug 25, 2016)

I wouldn't use clothing to determine battle damage. Usually not  good idea an any fictional medium. That being said, Kishi stated the body is made up of 70% water and snakes share almost the same percentage. While Gai's first version was impressive in killing Kisame, his second version vaporised an entire tidal wave of Water in one move. All that concentrated heat rather than fanned out, but directly targeting one point, well like Kisame and Kishi say, Orochimaru will die.


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> No one in this manga has ever burned for longer than a few seconds from any fire that's not _Amaterasu_. _Amaterasu _is the only thing that's shown to function close to real world flames by spreading and continuing to burn excruciatingly unless extinguished. All other fire attacks in this manga stopped burning after a few seconds, regardless if they were extinguished or not; regular fire attacks are just treated as momentarily hot energy attacks. Sasuke set Orochimaru's head on fire and burned it for a good bit, but it stopped as soon his katon was finished, despite hair being extremely flammable. Itachi's arm was hit by fire hot enough to create cumulonimbus clouds, and all it did was burn up his sleeve and not spread to the rest of his clothing. Tsunade could physically punch fire away. If Orochimaru's _kawarimi _can escape _Amaterasu, _then there's no chance of _Asa Kujaku's _flames doing anything to Orochimaru. They didn't even burn the clothes on _Shoten _Kisame's body.



"No one's ever burned in the manga, so Orochimaru wont burn from Asakujaku"

Flawless reasoning there Champ



> Kisame was hit by both, and they never came close to doing anything of the sort; they don't function like nukes. They deal blunt and concussive force and cause burn injuries.



Well the first time Kisame did die, the second time Guy was blocked by the Daikodan



> You and I have both read the same manga, so stop asking me to make up stuff we know doesn't exist. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Naruto isn't overtly gory, and the a couple decapitations that have been shown were treated pretty dramatically. Orochimaru has smirked and laughed at attacks that obviously would instantly kill any normal person, so it's not like a kunai between the eyes is all it takes to kill a literal immortal whose been portrayed as impossible to keep down throughout literally the entire series, all the up until the ending where he's going to outlive every other character. Sealing is always a much worse alternative to outright killing, but there's the small prospect they'll somehow escape. So why would Itachi, who had a clear and easy shot for the head, opt to seal Orochimaru instead of put an end to him permanently; because this is manga where a giant sword through the face won't be shown and it wouldn't have done any good anyway. Why would Hiruzen go through the trouble of having to use a jutsu that removes souls, if all he needs to do if connect a head shot with a kunai? Gai can't win em all.



Nice cop out there champ

"OROCHIMARU HAS SURVIVED ALL SORTS OF STUFF ASAKUJAKU AND THE HIRUDORA THE EXPLORER WONT DO SHIIIIIIIIIT"


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 25, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you are saying that Kisame's body is alot tougher than V3 Susano'O ?


 Nah, I'm saying that Guy toned Hirudora down when he used it on Kisame, since he was specifically instructed to not kill him. Then proceeded to use his Hirudora at it's strongest against Madara later on when he wiped him out for a bit.


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Nah, I'm saying that Guy toned Hirudora down when he used it on Kisame, since he was specifically instructed to not kill him. Then proceeded to use his Hirudora at it's strongest against Madara later on when he wiped him out for a bit.




Well Hirudora had to combat another jutsu of equal size so theres that


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> "No one's ever burned in the manga, so Orochimaru wont burn from Asakujaku"
> 
> Flawless reasoning there Champ



Where is the flaw exactly? You're doing a lot of just saying that my argument is bad, but you aren't offering any evidence to disprove anything.



> Well the first time Kisame did die, the second time Guy was blocked by the Daikodan



You said either attack would destroy Orochimaru's body, and I said both attacks did nothing of the sort to Kisame (as in come close to destroying or erasing any bit of his body). I am not incorrect (the blunt force that beat 30% Kisame to death isn't pertinent to Orochimaru). Gai's jutsu don't erase what they hit and they're not nukes. _Hirudora _didn't even erase the rocks it hit (it just broke them up) and it's never left a crater. It's an air cannon and not a nuke.



> Nice cop out there champ
> 
> "OROCHIMARU HAS SURVIVED ALL SORTS OF STUFF ASAKUJAKU AND THE HIRUDORA THE EXPLORER WONT DO SHIIIIIIIIIT"



Strawman.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2016)

If you can't find me an instance Orochimaru having any remarkable durability in the area that seems MOST logical to get a confirmed kill.  Then why is it even more wrong of me to share with you statement after statement after statement that Gai's technique can kill from Kishi himself. Even after having these moves 'supposedly' fail against Kisame. Why can't I use Kishi's language to come up with a reason as to why Gai can kill Orochimaru when he has no remarkable implications of being able to survive said attacks to the head. No evidence doesn't get to somehow trump the number of evidence I provide.


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Where is the flaw exactly? You're doing a lot of just saying that my argument is bad, but you aren't offering any evidence to disprove anything.



So you think Orochimaru would survive both those moves based on what?





> You said either attack would destroy Orochimaru's body, and I said both attacks did nothing of the sort to Kisame. I am not incorrect (the blunt force that beat 30% Kisame to death isn't pertinent to Orochimaru). Gai's jutsu don't erase what they hit and they're not nukes. _Hirudora _didn't even erase the rocks it hit (it just broke them up) and it's never left a crater. It's an air cannon and not a nuke.



What's your point here? Orochimaur's body is nowhere near strong enough to take either of those moves

Are  we really talking about how it didn't obliterate enough rocks are you sh*tting me?

How about KOing edo Madara?




> Strawman.



Ah so youre just trollin'


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

Jad said:


> I wouldn't use clothing to determine battle damage. Usually not  good idea an any fictional medium. That being said, Kishi stated the body is made up of 70% water and snakes share almost the same percentage. While Gai's first version was impressive in killing Kisame, his second version vaporised an entire tidal wave of Water in one move. All that concentrated heat rather than fanned out, but directly targeting one point, well like Kisame and Kishi say, Orochimaru will die.



Because you say so? The concentrated flames you're talking about hit 30% Kisame and left no damage as a result of them. Why wouldn't you use clothing damage as an indicator of battle damage? It's done all the time. Deva path was hit by KN6's _Bijuudama _backlash, and part of his cloak was burned off as a result to indicate damage. Hidan was hit by Asuma's katon and had part of his cloak burned off. Itachi was partially hit by _Kirin _and had his entire outer layer of clothing burned off (in addition to having his sleeve burned from getting in the arm by a katon earlier). Naruto and Sasuke's clothes were damaged from the blast in the second VotE clash. There's an absurd amount of more examples of this. If flames hot enough to literally evaporate Orochimaru and turn him to steam, ostensibly because part of the body is made of water (I don't quite think that scientifically holds up), then 30% Kisame would've shown some visible damage as a result of being hit by a non-fanned out version. Quality-wise, there's no evidence _Asa Kujaku's _flames are hotter than Sasuke's katon, and they definitely aren't hotter than _Amaterasu._


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 25, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Well Hirudora had to combat another jutsu of equal size so theres that


 What exactly are you trying to say?


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> So you think Orochimaru would survive both those moves based on what?



They can't disintegrate him and Orochimaru's never shown to be remotely threatened by anything less.



> What's your point here? Orochimaur's body is nowhere near strong enough to take either of those moves



Again, provide evidence proving this.



> Are  we really talking about how it didn't obliterate enough rocks are you sh*tting me?



It didn't do it to any rocks, it just broke them up and made them smaller.



> How about KOing edo Madara?



Wasn't shown and I don't think you can prove it happened.



> Ah so youre just trollin'



I'd be happy to troll you, but it's not what I'm doing right now.  By quoting my argument, and then attempting to mock it by rephrasing it, you are debating a false narrative that you made up, and not the argument that I proposed; all the while, without providing any substantiation to disprove any of my claims or support yours.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> They can't disintegrate him and Orochimaru's never shown to be remotely threatened by anything less.





So you think he can surive something like Sand Coffin, or a susanoo arrow to the gut because it wont disengrate him?

He had to switch bodies when he gutted himself 
, you think he would be ok otherwise?




> Again, provide evidence proving this.



That would be proving a negative

It's up to you to prove he can



> It didn't do it to any rocks, it just broke them up and made them smaller.



What's your Point?

Orochimaru isnt a rock



> Wasn't shown and I don't think you can prove it happened.



So Madara just sat down because he was bored then?



> I'd be happy to troll you, but it's not what I'm doing right now.  By quoting my argument, and then attempting to mock it by rephrasing it, you are debating a false narrative that you made up, and not the argument that I proposed; all the while, without providing any substantiation to disprove any of my claims or support yours.




You're saying Orochimaru can survive Hirudora and Asakujaku because he's survived other things that kill other people

Which is a flawed assessment


But I know you're just here to see how long you can drag this out


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What exactly are you trying to say?



Kisame didnt take the full brunt of Hirudora


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Asakujaku vaped a tidal wave but because it didnt burn enough of Kisame's clothes off it can't kill Orochimaru 

That's what we call grasping for straws dude


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 25, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Kisame didnt take the full brunt of Hirudora


 Alright, so we agree? I just wasn't sure whether you were disagreeing or not.


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> So you think he can surive something like Sand Coffin, or a susanoo arrow to the gut because it wont disengrate him?



Of course I do. The damage from having the _Totsuka _ran through him (which he laughed at) alone is clearly greater than a _Susanoo _arrow.



> He had to switch bodies when he gutted himself
> , you think he would be ok otherwise?



Again, Sasuke chopped his head off. He laughed at Sasuke and stuck himself back together. A new body makes it more practical for him to fight in instead of fighting as a chopped up body, but if left alone and opting not to regenerate, he clearly wasn't in any life-threatening danger.



> That would be proving a negative
> 
> It's up to you to prove he can



I have. The damage done to Kisame's body from those attacks has shown to be insufficient to kill Orochimaru. 



> What's your Point?
> 
> Orochimaru isnt a rock



My point is that if it can't disintegrate rocks (or Kisame), why will it disintegrate Orochimaru?



> So Madara just sat down because he was bored then?



That would be completely in-character of Madara. The nonchalant, "_Oh well_," pretty much suggests that he was exactly bored.



> You're saying Orochimaru can survive Hirudora and Asakujaku because he's survived other things that kill other people
> 
> Which is a flawed assessment



Again, you're trying to tell me what my argument is by telling me what it is that I'm saying. Orochimaru's shown regenerative properties and not to be killed by ordinarily fatal attacks. He's an immortal, and the only physical attack that's shown to work on him is total body disintegration. Otherwise, fuinjutsu and soul removal are the only things that are shown to work. He's survived attacks that cause greater damage than Gai's jutsu are shown to cause. _Hirudora _can't disintegrate him, and he can canonically take greater blunt force and hotter flames than _Asa Kujaku. _



> But I know you're just here to see how long you can drag this out



Quite the opposite. If this continues beyond tonight, I highly doubt I'll ever have the motivation to get back to it. All my discussions on this forum end that way. If it's simply a contest to see who'll get the last word in, then you're sure to win.



NinjaTensa said:


> Asakujaku vaped a tidal wave but because it didnt burn enough of Kisame's clothes off it can't kill Orochimaru
> 
> That's what we call grasping for straws dude



Water turns to vapor when in contact with fire. _Asa Kujaku _feathers clashing with individual _Suikodans _is a quantity feat, not a quality one. Another thing that's being repeatedly mistaken is that Gai didn't completely vaporize the entire attack. Orochimaru can canonically get out of _Amaterasu, _so _Asa Kujaku's _flames don't compare.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Of course I do. The damage from having the _Totsuka _ran through him (which he laughed at) alone is clearly greater than a _Susanoo _arrow.



That was his Yamata form not his human form

And you think he survive being crushed because it wont disintegrate him?



> Again, Sasuke chopped his head off. He laughed at Sasuke and stuck himself back together. A new body makes it more practical for him to fight in instead of fighting as a chopped up body, but if left alone and opting not to regenerate, he clearly wasn't in any life-threatening danger.



His snake body =/= his human body

Orochimaru said that he needed to be sacrficed, so he knew that it would kill him

Also Orochimaru wasnt planning to fight even if he was why would a new body make more sense than regenerating?

what?




> I have. The damage done to Kisame's body from those attacks has shown to be insufficient to kill Orochimaru.



He couldn't move a muscle after Hirudora and Asakujaku would kill him



> My point is that if it can't disintegrate rocks (or Kisame), why will it disintegrate Orochimaru?





> That would be completely in-character of Madara. The nonchalant, "_Oh well_," pretty much suggests that he was exactly bored.



You're reaching, he was talking about the Ten Tails and how it was prematurely reborn at the time, he has no reason to stop fighting when he made it his priority to capture Naruto and Bee, as well as the fact all of his jutsu were released





> Again, you're trying to tell me what my argument is by telling me what it is that I'm saying. Orochimaru's shown regenerative properties and not to be killed by ordinarily fatal attacks. He's an immortal, and the only physical attack that's shown to work on him is total body disintegration. Otherwise, fuinjutsu and soul removal are the only things that are shown to work. He's survived attacks that cause greater damage than Gai's jutsu are shown to cause. _Hirudora _can't disintegrate him, and he can canonically take greater blunt force and hotter flames than _Asa Kujaku. _



No he's a cockroach, hard to kill but killable nonetheless, it doesn't mean you need to disntergrate his body to beat him

Curshing, burning, bleeding out etc. can all kill him it's just hard to pull off

Hirudora would destroy his body, wether or not it's in tact who knows



> Quite the opposite. If this continues beyond tonight, I highly doubt I'll ever have the motivation to get back to it. All my discussions on this forum end that way. If it's simply a contest to see who'll get the last word in, then you're sure to win.




Considering the straws you've grasped for today I'd say youre running out of ideas[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


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## Empathy (Aug 25, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> That was his Yamata form not his human form



It was his human form. His _Yamata _one is the one that got repeatedly decapitated. It's not like Orochimaru can't use his _Yamata _form here anyway.



> And you think he survive being crushed because it wont disintegrate him?



How many times do I have to answer yes to the same question?



> His snake body =/= his human body



How does that make a difference in this match? Is Orochimaru's snake body somehow not getting hit? His snake body is underneath his human form and he's composed of snakes. He reconnected his body when he was bifurcated using snakes.



> Orochimaru said that he needed to be sacrficed, so he knew that it would kill him
> 
> Also Orochimaru wasnt planning to fight even if he was why would a new body make more sense than regenerating?
> 
> what?



I'm not sure what instance you're talking about here. Can you provide panels?




> He couldn't move a muscle after Hirudora and Asakujaku would kill him



Kisame did move a muscle after _Hirudora, _which is why Gai knocked him out. Then he moved a lot more muscles shortly after when he woke up. _Asa Kujaku _will kill who? Kisame? How's it gonna do that when _Hirudora _couldn't. Orochimaru's proven to be able to survive greater blunt force and greater flames than _Asa Kujaku. _



> You're reaching, he was talking about the Ten Tails and how it was prematurely reborn at the time, he has no reason to stop fighting when he made it his priority to capture Naruto and Bee, as well as the fact all of his jutsu were released



I know what he was referring to, but it doesn't make the comment any less sarcastic or nonchalant. His seating position isn't one of somebody just now recovering from defeat, but somebody who's been just chilling.



> No he's a cockroach, hard to kill but killable nonetheless, it doesn't mean you need to disntergrate his body to beat him
> 
> Curshing, burning, bleeding out etc. can all kill him it's just hard to pull off



Show me where this is stated or shown.


> Hirudora would destroy his body, wether or not it's in tact who knows



How do you know that when _Hirudora's_ never destroyed any one's body?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> How many times do I have to answer yes to the same question?



Ok nice to know you actually buy that hype 


> How does that make a difference in this match. Is Orochimaru's snake body somehow not getting hit. His snake body is underneath his human form and he's made of snakes. He reconnected his body when he was bifurcated using snakes.


Not really my point... Snake Orochimaru can probably survive things his human body can't




> I'm not sure what instance you're talking about here. Can you provide panels?



Here you go



> Kisame did move a muscle after _Hirudora, _which is why Gai knocked him out. Then he moved a lot more muscles shortly after when he woke up. _Asa Kujaku _will kill who? Kisame? How's it gonna do that when _Hirudora _couldn't*. Orochimaru's proven to be able to survive greater blunt force and greater flames than Asa Kujaku. *



Yeah he managed to twitched his finger, not really stand up let alone continue fighting





> I know what he was referring to, but it doesn't make the comment any less sarcastic or nonchalant. His seating position isn't one of somebody just now recovering from defeat, but somebody who's been just chilling.



Well he doesn't really let anything bother him

Him being aloof and complacent doesn't really meanhe didn't receive an L



> Show me where this is stated or shown.



Why do you need proof he's killable?

You think he can just walk away from as long as his body is intact 



> How do you know that when _Hirudora's_ never destroyed any one's body?



Because it has enough power to suggest that it can do so, and Managed to KO Madara

Do you also need proof that Sasuke's PS can't break a mountain


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy your argument is still not solid. You've yet again only argued for Orochimaru's survivability because his body is made up of various snakes. That doesn't mean his head is, and that's were your immortality argument dies, rather his invulnerability. He is infact for the most part shown to be quite easy to damage from the looks of it, like Itachi lopping a limb. And though he continues living off changing bodies and shedding his skin. He still should die from Gai's attacks to the head.


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Jad said:


> Empathy your argument is still not solid. You've yet again only argued for Orochimaru's survivability because his body is made up of various snakes. That doesn't mean his head is, and that's were your immortality argument dies, rather his invulnerability. He is infact for the most part shown to be quite easy to damage from the looks of it, like Itachi lopping a limb. And though he continues living off changing bodies and shedding his skin. He still should die from Gai's attacks to the head.




A hard enough body blow does kill him


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Nah, I'm saying that Guy toned Hirudora down when he used it on Kisame.


Oh ok so you are just making shit up.



t0xeus said:


> See this over and over again, my reply will be same: Madara disappeared from the panels for quite a while after Hirudora connected, the branches immediately shattered, Hachibi stating that Gai wasn't just playing strong guy - everything from the author reaching to every reader of any IQ indicating Madara's V3 Susanoo got rekt.
> 
> If you don't see it, no reason to reply to me because that's all I've got, sorry.



Madara's disspearance doesn't indicate the destruction of his Susano'O or his body. Because he dissapeared for an entire chapter. Re forming his Susano'O or regenerating his body from scratch would take alot shorter than that because we've seen it before.

As for the grip of the branches being loosened, it may have to do with Madara being sent far away, or he got ragdolled and lost his grip on the jutsu momentarily. Which again, doesn't indicate anything regarding him or his Susano'O being destroyed.

In short the foundation of your argument is very loose. And I rightfully disagree with your interpretation of the story.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Aug 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> They can't disintegrate him and Orochimaru's never shown to be remotely threatened by anything less.



Oro's face was disintegrated by Genin Sasuke's Katon.

Actually, i haven't seen Oro's resistance to fire (or can't remember) and we can't say MP's fire won't stay because the only time it was used on a target, said target fell in an ocean.


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh ok so you are just making shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The straws being grasped is astounding


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## t0xeus (Aug 25, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Madara's disspearance doesn't indicate the destruction of his Susano'O or his body. Because he dissapeared for an entire chapter. Re forming his Susano'O or regenerating his body from scratch would take alot shorter than that because we've seen it before.
> 
> As for the grip of the branches being loosened, it may have to do with Madara being sent far away, or he got ragdolled and lost his grip on the jutsu momentarily. Which again, doesn't indicate anything regarding him or his Susano'O being destroyed.
> 
> In short the foundation of your argument is very loose. And I rightfully disagree with your interpretation of the story.


Okay whatever, there's obviously no other way to prove it, it's really just up to reader's interpretation and it's fine we both have different views, that's what makes battledome interesting.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 25, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh ok so you are just making shit up.


 Guy destroyed Madara's V3 legged Susanoo with Hirudora, so he obviously toned it down against Guy unless you're saying Kisame's durability > Madara's Susanoo.


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## Android (Aug 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Guy destroyed Madara's V3 legged Susanoo with Hirudora, so he obviously toned it down against Guy unless you're saying Kisame's durability > Madara's Susanoo.


There are two factors regarding the hirudora Guy used against Kisame :
- His Hirudora had to clash first with Kisame's jutsu before hitting him .
- Water resistance .Liquids of low viscosity flow fast , water is 790 times more viscous and provides 12 times the resistance than the air . The density of water is approximately 1000 times greater than air btw .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Guy destroyed Madara's V3 legged Susanoo with Hirudora.



Again, you are making shit up.



NinjaTensa said:


> The straws being grasped is astounding


Very constructive.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 25, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> There are two factors regarding the hirudora Guy used against Kisame :
> - His Hirudora had to clash first with Kisame's jutsu before hitting him .
> - Water resistance .Liquids of low viscosity flow fast , water is 790 times more viscous and provides 12 times the resistance than the air . The density of water is approximately 1000 times greater than air btw .


 Good point. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, you are making shit up.
> 
> 
> Very constructive.


 Did we read the same Manga? Guy hits Madara with a Hirudora, he's sent flying away and an explosion occurs, he loses control over his Mokuton, and the next time we see him he's laying in a pile of rubble with his Susanoo nowhere to be seen. What does that tell you?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## LostSelf (Aug 25, 2016)

Hirudora also didn't clash with Kisame, bite him and crashed him against the floor before detonating. Obviously Kisame and Susano'o didn't face the same damage.


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2016)

*7th Gated Strength Comparison
Obito (incomplete Jinchuuriki) nonchalantly destroys Rib Cage Sasuno with ease, shattering it into oblivion.



Gai pushes back Madara(almost complete Juubi Jinchuuriki)



If you can't see where I'm going with his I'll hint you. If Gai couldn't do a little of what Obito did in 7 Gates, do you really think Madara would have budged after one punch.

Orochimaru's head becomes like that Rib Cage Sasuno. That's like evidence number 100 or something, after all those statements from Kishi saying Gai's techniques will kill....
*
*Mobile sucks, didn't mean bold and underlined text.. *​


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## Ashi (Aug 25, 2016)

I really don't guy Guy being as physically strong as Juubito


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> I really don't guy Guy being as physically strong as Juubito


I'm just saying if Gai couldn't shatter Rib Cage Sasuno, he wouldn't budge Juubidara after the first hit.

And since I'm not of the opinion that Orochimaru's (especially head) has that level of durability, makes me believe Gai can kill him.


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## Saru (Aug 26, 2016)

Empathy said:


> No one in this manga has ever burned for longer than a few seconds from any fire that's not _Amaterasu_. _Amaterasu _is the only thing that's shown to function close to real world flames by spreading and continuing to burn excruciatingly unless extinguished. All other fire attacks in this manga stopped burning after a few seconds, regardless if they were extinguished or not; regular fire attacks are just treated as momentarily hot energy attacks. Sasuke set Orochimaru's head on fire and burned it for a good bit, but it stopped as soon his katon was finished, despite hair being extremely flammable. Itachi's arm was hit by fire hot enough to create cumulonimbus clouds, and all it did was burn up his sleeve and not spread to the rest of his clothing. Tsunade could physically punch fire away. If Orochimaru's _kawarimi _can escape _Amaterasu, _then there's no chance of _Asa Kujaku's _flames doing anything to Orochimaru. They didn't even burn the clothes on _Shoten _Kisame's body.



Katon and Fire are two different things, though. The fire that Asakujaku creates is born of physical forces, not chakra.



> So why would Itachi, who had a clear and easy shot for the head, opt to seal Orochimaru instead of put an end to him permanently; because this is manga where a giant sword through the face won't be shown and it wouldn't have done any good anyway.



Itachi did that to get rid of the Cursed Seal, according to Obito.



> Why would Hiruzen go through the trouble of having to use a jutsu that removes souls, if all he needs to do if connect a head shot with a kunai? Gai can't win em all.



It was stated that Hiruzen used Shiki Fujin to seal the Edo Tensei. If he was capable of resolving the conflict by connecting a head shot (and he was, but the Edo Tensei were in the way), then he would've done that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Good point.
> 
> Did we read the same Manga? Guy hits Madara with a Hirudora, he's sent flying away and an explosion occurs, he loses control over his Mokuton, and the next time we see him he's laying in a pile of rubble with his Susanoo nowhere to be seen. What does that tell you?


I already adressed this misconception in a different post :



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Madara's disspearance doesn't indicate the destruction of his Susano'O or his body. Because he dissapeared for an entire chapter. Re forming his Susano'O or regenerating his body from scratch would take alot shorter than that because we've seen it before.
> 
> As for the grip of the branches being loosened, it may have to do with Madara being sent far away, or he got ragdolled and lost his grip on the jutsu momentarily. Which again, doesn't indicate anything regarding him or his Susano'O being destroyed.
> 
> In short the foundation of your argument is very loose. And I rightfully disagree with your interpretation of the story.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 26, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I already adressed this misconception in a different post :


The only thing you said in that post is that "in my opinion, I don't think his Susanoo was destroyed because of these reasons" and that's it. Your point about him disappearing for an entire chapter is flawed because the time it takes for Edo Tensei to regenerate from damage is quite inconsistent and all over the place as seen when Hiruzen was gone for multiple chapters after having his body obliterated. But did he come back sooner? No he didn't. So you can't use that as the basis, it's just an opinion. None of us can truly prove whether or not his Susanoo was destroyed, so it's not really arguing anymore to be honest.


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## Mithos (Aug 26, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Hirudora completely destroyed Edo Madara's V3 legged Susanoo and most likely his entire body since he was left out of commission for a short while afterwards. There's no way Orochimaru is going to survive that, but he shouldn't have any problem surviving Asakujaku.



There's no proof it did that, and that completely goes against its showing against Kisame. Something that can destroy that level of Susano'o _and_ the user should have easily killed Kisame, but it didn't. Kisame wasn't even close to death. Something that can't kill Kisame sure isn't going to kill Orochimaru.

Then it doesn't make sense from a narrative stand-point, either. First, if Gai did really do that, that means he would have killed Madara had he not been an Edo Tensei - something that not even the Gokage managed to accomplish together. Even if it was because Madara wasn't serious, such a feat would warrant a mention of surprise from Madara or someone else. There wasn't one; then, Juubidara was completely looking down on Gai until he entered the 8th Gate, which doesn't make sense if Gai had broken his defense and "killed" him so casually a little while earlier.

And Gai's strength in the 7th Gate was known in Konoha, since even someone like Yamato recognized his Hirudora. If Gai's known technique was really that strong, why was he not dispatched to fight Madara? Why wasn't he considered one of the Alliance's secret weapons?

It was off-panel so we don't know what really happened, but it just doesn't fit in with its prior feats or make sense within the story.

Orochimaru is one of the most resilient characters in the manga, and I'm not buying that he'll die from Hirudora.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 26, 2016)

Mithos said:


> There's no proof it did that, and that completely goes against its showing against Kisame. Something that can destroy that level of Susano'o _and_ the user should have easily killed Kisame, but it didn't. Kisame wasn't even close to death. Something that can't kill Kisame sure isn't going to kill Orochimaru.


 That can be explained by it being underwater which would've significantly weakened it due to the amount of water pressure it would've been under. On top of that, Guy was instructed to not kill Kisame so he would've held back to make sure he didn't die. 



> Then it doesn't make sense from a narrative stand-point, either. First, if Gai did really do that, that means he would have killed Madara had he not been an Edo Tensei - something that not even the Gokage managed to accomplish together. Even if it was because Madara wasn't serious, such a feat would warrant a mention of surprise from Madara or someone else. There wasn't one; then, Juubidara was completely looking down on Gai until he entered the 8th Gate, which doesn't make sense if Gai had broken his defense and "killed" him so casually a little while earlier.
> 
> And Gai's strength in the 7th Gate was known in Konoha, since even someone like Yamato recognized his Hirudora. If Gai's known technique was really that strong, why was he not dispatched to fight Madara? Why wasn't he considered one of the Alliance's secret weapons?
> 
> ...


Meh, you've convinced me. It doesn't really make that much sense now that I think about it, if Guy really did completely obliterate Madara earlier so easily then it would've been mentioned or marveled at. So it's likely that it probably didn't do so.


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## Ayala (Aug 26, 2016)

Hirudora probably isn't strong enough to one shot susanoo and Madara all together, it's too much, too OP. 

It would be a fast, giant, inavoidable one hit kill. Gai just has to punch the air to obliterate everything in one direction, a bijuu bomb.


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## Android (Aug 26, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> obliterate everything in one direction, a *bijuu bomb*.


No .


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## Ayala (Aug 26, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No .



Try a bit more, explain if you want.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 26, 2016)

It depends whether the 7th Gate is enough to put down Yamata no Orochi jutsu. 

It would come down to whether Oro runs out of steam to use Oral Rebirth and Yamata is defeated or Guy runs out of Gate steam or is overwhelmed by Yamata no Jutsu.

I doubt Guy can deal with these without the 7th Gate.

Also it depends whether Guy would be affected by Oro's White snake poison which is rather likely.


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## Android (Aug 26, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Try a bit more, explain if you want.


Are you saying , Hirudora = a bijuudama ??


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## Jad (Aug 26, 2016)

Gai's Hirudora technique is to compress air and have it explode in an instant. But people have forgotten that against Kisame he used Hirudora underwater where there wasn't much air to work with.


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## Ayala (Aug 26, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Are you saying , Hirudora = a bijuudama ??



It was a simile.


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## Ashi (Aug 26, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> It was a simile.



These Nardo fans really do only think in power levels


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## Android (Aug 26, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> It was a simile.


I see .....


NinjaTensa said:


> These Nardo fans really do only think in power levels


Says the guy who thinks 9 Cho Odama Rasengans >>> 4 Juubi Bijuudamas


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## Ashi (Aug 26, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I see .....
> 
> Says the guy who thinks 9 Cho Odama Rasengans >>> 4 Juubi Bijuudamas



Who said i think that


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## Android (Aug 26, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Who said i think that


I think his name was @NinjaTensa


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## Ashi (Aug 26, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I think his name was @NinjaTensa




I think you have this @NinjaTensa guy mistaken for somebody else

I somewhat retract that argument, and I was only saying i don't believe in direct power scaling that leads to that conclusion


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## Empathy (Aug 26, 2016)

Saru said:


> Katon and Fire are two different things, though. The fire that Asakujaku creates is born of physical forces, not chakra.



Fire release and fire are different things? That's like saying you can't drown in suiton or that it isn't wet. All elemental affinities function like their respective element. Katon is just fire created from chakra. It's never stated to have any different properties from regular fire. Regular fire in this manga just doesn't follow real world logic, including _Asa Kujaku _(fire needs fuel to burn in order to exist and _Asa Kujaku _has no fuel source when separated from Gai and doesn't burn off of Gai; additionally, I don't believe any fire has ever given off smoke in this manga). Even if Orochimaru does burn for longer than a few moments, there's no reason shedding won't counter it.



> Itachi did that to get rid of the Cursed Seal, according to Obito.



And how do you know that killing him wouldn't accomplish the same thing?



> It was stated that Hiruzen used Shiki Fujin to seal the Edo Tensei. If he was capable of resolving the conflict by connecting a head shot (and he was, but the Edo Tensei were in the way), then he would've done that.



_Kage Bunshins _were used to get rid of _Edo Tensei. _There's no reason for Hiruzen to sacrifice himself unnecessarily. This is just nay-saying anyway, and offers no proof that all it takes is a head-shot to bring Orochimaru down. This is just nay-saying for the sake of disagreeing and offers no proof that all it takes is a head-shot to keep Orochimaru down.



LostSelf said:


> Oro's face was disintegrated by Genin Sasuke's Katon.



I used this as an example in favor of my argument. [_Link]_ It melted his fake face and stopped burning as soon as Sasuke stopped spitting fire, even though hair is really flammable. All it did was make Orochimaru smirk. I'm not saying that Orochimaru can't burn and will just walk through the flames invincible like Superman; just that burning him won't accomplish anything in the long run. Burning him and completely erasing him instantly before he has a chance to regenerate aren't the same thing and there's no reason that body spitting won't counter it. Getting hit by _Asa Kujaku _is obviously going to force him to regenerate, but there's no reason that won't counter it. 




> Actually, i haven't seen Oro's resistance to fire (or can't remember) and we can't say MP's fire won't stay because the only time it was used on a target, said target fell in an ocean.



No one in this manga has ever burned longer than a few seconds from any fire that isn't _Amaterasu, _so it'd be unfavorably generous toward Gai to assume that his fire is the only fire to function that way, or that it'd be extraordinarily hard to extinguish. There really is no reason to assume that _Asa Kujaku's _flames are even particularly hot when compared to any other high level katon. Even if it could burn him and stay burning for a long time, there's no reason Orochimaru's _kawarimi _wouldn't counter it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The only thing you said in that post is that "in my opinion




Both Susano'O and Madara's body can be regenerated in a matter seconds. Thats a fact. So the argument that his body and his Susano'O were destroyed based on him being absent is unfounded. Destruction of Susano'O doesn't explain his 1 chapter absence. Which is also a fact.

I'm all about facts. You are the one trying to interpret what happened off panel to your liking, and not doing a good job at that considering your argument is based on shaky foundation.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 27, 2016)

Yeah I don't know why Orochimaru's durability even needs to be argued for here. If he is for some reason _massively_ damaged by Hirudora or Asa Kujaku, he just sheds his skin with Oral Rebirth.

Kabuto repeatedly slashed Orochimaru with Chakra Scalpel - he even slit his throat. Orochimaru had his arm cut off in another instance, and then we have Sasuke who was hit by Amaterasu. In all these instances, Oral Rebirth recovered the user from damage completely.

The difference is that after Gai uses Hirudora once he's pretty exhausted, while Orochimaru has shown to shed his skin twice, then use a plethora of other chakra-taxing techniques and and even eat part of a bijuu-dama, and still have chakra to spare. Orochimaru just waits until Gai is tired and then kills him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Jad (Aug 27, 2016)

Where does this imagination of Gai using one Hirudora and collapsing come from? Did he collapse straight after using it against Kisame? He did only after some unknown amount of time had passed by. The thing is, he used Hirudora against Madara at his LIMIT, beaten up, no stamina, tired, bleeding. So, if I'm understanding this, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Gai in that shape to have used Hirudora against Madara if Healthy Gai is only able to use one. Yet it happened, twice. Twice, because he used it against Madara again, even though before he was shown nearing his limit with Lee holding him.

Secondly, Itachi said it takes massive amounts of Chakara to use Oral Rebirth, and from my understanding, Orochimaru only managed 3 against Kyuubi Naruto, using only a few techniques; from memory being _Snake Army From Mouth _and _Rashamon_ _Gates. _Not a plethora. You are mistaken him with Hebi Sasuke.

And finally, finally, we have YET to see Orochimaru surviving any sought of brutal head trauma; any semblance of feats suggesting he can. Only that he can easily be damaged apparently, since he seems to be cut up and ripped up. Thankfully, those places (most of his body) is made up of various snakes. I think you're reaching with statements that he can take punches that can and will kill someone of his level, just because his motif is 'Immortality' - rather it's shedding his body for a new tomorrow, that White Snake idea.

So unless I see proofing of some sought of Orochimaru's durability (maybe I should use *toughness*) to survive Hirudora or Morning Peacock, I still think he loses. His head is still a functioning part of the atanomy that will cease his existence if any terminal damage befalls him.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 27, 2016)

His neck is a part of his functioning anatomy too. It's gets cut open and, despite the fact that he should have died in like 30 seconds, he just barfs up a new body and goes back to being a creep. 

I think the obsession with decapitation here is a bit misplaced though. In real life, decapitation would kill you within a second or two. But then, in real life, people don't survive with wires replacing their muscles, blood and organs (Kakuzu), nor do they survive for several hours without a lower body or a severed spine (Tsunade) and they certainly don't survive after being stabbed dozens of times and having their neck cut open (Orochimaru). Fortunately this isn't real life, and resilient, superhuman characters can likely survive without a head longer than normal humans can. Even a fodder like White Zetsu managed to talk after his head was severed. As a matter of fact, to my knowledge it's only ever been fodder or weak characters who have actually been insta-killed by decapitation. 

Regarding Oral Rebirth: I never said Orochimaru used it a plethora of times. I said he used it twice, and used a plethora of techniques in between (regeneration, Kuchiyose, Sea of Snakes, to name a few). 

And Gai's ability to use Hirudora against Madara came after he'd had a period of rest. Granted, it wasn't a particularly long period of time, but he had it nonetheless (stamina in the War Arc didn't make sense in general: see Kakashi). The first time he uses it against Madara, he was wrecked afterwards. He'd also used Asa Kujaku and other attacks for a while before that in his defence, but then Orochimaru is going to require nothing but continuous Asa Kujaku and Hirudora attacks if he ever hopes to exhaust his reserves. Gai will certainly tire out before that happens, though.

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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 27, 2016)

I don't think Gai would collapse after using _Hirudora_ once, but he wouldn't be in any fit state to continue fighting afterwards, especially against a tricky high tier opponent like Orochimaru. To me, this match-up essentially comes down to this: can Gai kill Orochimaru instantly with _Hirudora_? 

A direct hit would almost certainly incapacitate Orochimaru and leave him open to be finished off by Gai, but a lot of his skill-set is based around negating or otherwise avoiding damage. _Sanjū Rashōmon_ would weaken and slow down the attack by enough that he could survive or otherwise avoid it, and _Oral Rebirth_ allows him to negate the damage for the one time and potentially get a surprise hit on Gai as the process is virtually untraceable even to people with the Sharingan. 

Considering these things, I think it's more likely that Orochimaru would win the match. Gai might be the superior fighter, but Orochimaru's specific set of skills puts him at a very favourable advantage over the taijutsu master: its endless endurance against a technique that is, in every definition of the word, a one-shot.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jad (Aug 27, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> His neck is a part of his functioning anatomy too. It's gets cut open and, despite the fact that he should have died in like 30 seconds, he just barfs up a new body and goes back to being a creep.



His throat was never slashed, I know the scene you are talking about. His whole mid section stomach area was ripped to shred, not his head or throat.



Atlantic said:


> A direct hit would almost certainly incapacitate Orochimaru and leave him open to be finished off by Gai, but a lot of his skill-set is based around negating or otherwise avoiding damage. _Sanjū Rashōmon_ would weaken and slow down the attack by enough .



There are two ways Gai can use Hirudora.

*1.* Upclose, so the Defence Gates are a not go in that scenario
*2.* From distance - but he'd have to primitively know that
*A)* Hirudora explodes and doesn't simply dodge it, not that he has the body speed too becuase
*B)* the biggest one, Madara couldn't finish a mid-swing attack on Naruto before Hirudora a hundered or so meteres  away hit him.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 27, 2016)

Jad said:


> His throat was never slashed, I know the scene you are talking about. His whole mid section stomach area was ripped to shred, not his head or throat.



Incorrect. His mid section was pulped afterwards.


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## Jad (Aug 27, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Incorrect. His mid section was pulped afterwards.


You showed me a panel of him holding him down with his hand; albeit with Chakra scapel - but that doesn't show he cuts him there, no blood. I think it would be apparent he slit his throat because I'm sure his collar would be torn, as shown below.

Incorrect

The angle of his first slash doesn't even look like one aimed at his neck. As you can seen in my second pic, he swings at an angle that cuts through the chairs arm rest.

Incorrect

I hate to use the Anime here, but they also don't show the throat being torn.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 27, 2016)

Jad said:


> You showed me a panel of him holding him down with his hand; albeit with Chakra scapel - but that doesn't show he cuts him there, no blood. I think it would be apparent he slit his throat because I'm sure his collar would be torn, as shown below.
> 
> Incorrect
> 
> ...



Chakra Scalpel doesn't have to cut the skin. [1] [2] He's quite clearly grabbing Orochimaru's neck with the scalpel activated.


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## Jad (Aug 27, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Chakra Scalpel doesn't have to cut the skin. [1] [2] He's quite clearly grabbing Orochimaru's neck with the scalpel activated.


In that state/mindset, Kabuto doesn't seem to be applying some Medical reversing technique on his throat to cut it from the inside, as he clearly has different intentions literally a panel later, with all that slashing and craziness. Yes, he has chakra scalpels in his hands, but he just held him down by his throat in that initial attack/knock down. That's it.

Do you really think Kishimoto would hide something like a complicated Medical scalpel attack like you are alluding to, verses just showing readers an easy to read scene like Kabuto going crazy and cutting someone up.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 27, 2016)

He grabbed his neck with the scalpel active, so regardless of what you think Kabuto's intentions were, Orochimaru was damaged by it.


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## Jad (Aug 27, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He grabbed his neck with the scalpel active, so regardless of what you think Kabuto's intentions were, Orochimaru was damaged by it.



Well that's a far cry from having his neck "cut open" as you had started off with in your initial post.

He didn't cut his Throat, he pushed him to the ground with the Chakra scalpel activated then proceeded to gut him. Which circles back to my original argument, nothing is shown or proven or alluded towards Orochimaru surviving massive head damage, one that can kill. And since there is a very big lack of evidence showing Orochimaru having any sought of incredible tough exterior, I say he still dies to Gated Gai's moves. These scenes of Orochimaru getting injured, which there is a lot of, just proves he is just as vulnerable to most attacks, his just got a very powerful way of escaping death. That doesn't mean he can escape death period from damage that should logically kill him via head area trauma.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 27, 2016)

His neck was cut open internally, not a far cry from what I said at all.


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## Mithos (Aug 28, 2016)

Why is Orochimaru's head any more functionally important than the rest of his body? Why does his head have to play by normal laws of biology but the rest of his body can reattach itself with snakes, laugh off any damage, and his true body is a giant snake made up of thousands of smaller ones? The same true body that got severed in multiple places and did nothing.

Then when Orochimaru was getting sealed by Itachi, there was a small white snake attempting to escape that Itachi burned with Amaterasu, implying that Orochimaru transferred his soul/consciousness from the Yamata into that tiny snake in order to flee. How does that make sense? If he can become one tiny white snake and attempt to get away, as was implied, why does damaging the head of fake body even matter more than anywhere else on that fake body?

I think too much importance is being placed on some theoretical head shot. Tsunade's punch should have rattled his brain so much that he would have died, but we all know that didn't happen. He suffered no major injuries from something that should have outright killed him from brain trauma, so why should Gai be able to do it? 

Orochimaru's body/soul does not play by the rules, clearly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 28, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Both Susano'O and Madara's body can be regenerated in a matter seconds. Thats a fact. So the argument that his body and his Susano'O were destroyed based on him being absent is unfounded. Destruction of Susano'O doesn't explain his 1 chapter absence. Which is also a fact.
> 
> *I'm all about facts.* You are the one trying to interpret what happened off panel to your liking, and not doing a good job at that considering your argument is based on shaky foundation.


I already explained why your reasoning was wrong, but this is pointless to argue anyway. I already conceded to Mithos, and agree that it didn't destroy Susanoo but only because Mithos gave good points unlike yourself. You're not all about facts, this has been seen multiple times throughout this forum so don't act like you are. You're the one who heavily misinterprets things the majority of the time, and barely has a good argument. Anyway, Orochimaru wins, Guy loses, we both agree so I'm done arguing with you.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 28, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I already explained why your reasoning was wrong.


Look man when someone lays out the facts for you, you just concede and move on. I'm not stating my opinion here. I'm just pointing out an obvious fact that manga has shown us that you've missed for some reason.


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## Seekingsoul (Aug 28, 2016)

Godaime, you've completely rocked this thread.

I essentially see this match going the same way as I described the Lee vs Orochimaru fight thread. Basically a case of a tai-jutsu only specialist being severely disadvantaged against a sneaky, resilient and poisonous freak like Orochimaru.


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