# Testing the P1 Statement: Jiraiya vs Itachi/Kisame



## Parallaxis (Dec 22, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 








*
Testing the P1 Statement*
There has been quite a controversy on the NBD about this P1 statement so I'd like to put it to the test. We see Itachi and Kisame running away from Jiraiya, because they wanted to avoid a confrontation that could lead to death.

This should prove that Jiraiya  ≥ Itachi and Kisame, however this is obviously retconned once we see Itachi's Susanoo and the full extent of Kisame's arsenal. Anyways, on with this. Let's assume the duo turned around and decided to fight Jiraiya. What would be the outcome?

_________________________________​*Location *Konohagakure
*Starting Distance *50m
*Mindset *IC
*Intel *Manga
*Restrictions *None


_Is the P1 statement true? Can Jiraiya really defeat both Itachi and Kisame at the same time?
_
*SCENARIO 2: *Itachi said with backup, it wouldn't affect the outcome much. Put this to the test as well -- the duo get backup in the form of the Artist Duo.
​

Reactions: Creative 2


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## Bonly (Dec 22, 2016)

I'm of the opinion that Itachi himself would be able to beat Jiraiya more times then not by himself, add in Kisame just makes Itachi's job easier as Jiraiya beating up Kisame any time they engage would leave Jiraiya open to an attack from Itachi so yeah

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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 22, 2016)

If we focus on feats Jiraiya would be pushed Extreme Difficulty or may even lose the battle. If we focus on what Kishimoto told us and showed us - Naruto _needed_ someone who could combat multiple Akatsuki members so that's what Kishi gave us. There is no way to get around this - Jiraiya is portrayed as someone capable of dealing with multiple Akatsuki members.

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## Suoh (Dec 22, 2016)

Itachi outright beats him in a neutral setting and Kisame can give him a good fight imo. I dont put much stock in that statement


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## Parallaxis (Dec 22, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Team stomp, just too much for Jiraiya to handle. Though I think Jiraiya vs itachi would either end in a stalemate, or Jiraya winning in an extreme diff and the same for Itachi.



So Itachi = Jiraiya in your opinion?

So adding Kisame in would seal the deal? This is about how I see it as well

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 22, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> So Itachi = Jiraiya in your opinion?
> 
> So adding Kisame in would seal the deal? This is about how I see it as well


Yes.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If we focus on feats Jiraiya would be pushed Extreme Difficulty or may even lose the battle. If we focus on what Kishimoto told us and showed us - Naruto _needed_ someone who could combat multiple Akatsuki members so that's what Kishi gave us. There is no way to get around this - Jiraiya is portrayed as someone capable of dealing with multiple Akatsuki members.



You're telling me that based on feats, Jiraiya would push Itachi AND Kisame to an extreme difficulty? 


(Someone wanna challenge Handfull for an easy stomp?) 


I kinda want to see which Akatsuki Duo Jiraiya can supposedly solo. 


Also, you're wrong about Jiraiya being in the way of Naruto's capture. It was explicitly stated by Itachi himself that they needed to wait for Kyuubi to be sealed last, that's why they didn't make any move, not because of Jiraiya.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 22, 2016)

I knew you'd come around @Sapherosth


Sapherosth said:


> You're telling me that based on feats, Jiraiya would push Itachi AND Kisame to an extreme difficulty?


Kisame gets taken out rather quickly and then it's Itachi vs Jiraiya which is High Difficulty for J-Dude but having to deal with Kisame as well would push him to Extreme Difficulty and like all High-Extreme Difficulty fights it can go either way - I just side with Jiraiya. If we focus on feats yes I believe Jiraiya has a chance to take both out while Kisachi has a good chance to take Jiraiya out.





> (Someone wanna challenge Handfull for an easy stomp?)


This actually sounds fun - I think I could make a decent argument considering Jiraiya has the knowledge advantage.. I'll consider this.





> kinda want to see which Akatsuki Duo Jiraiya can supposedly solo.


Kisame & Samehada 
Really though I could see Jiraiya handling Kakuzu & Hidan High Difficulty. I can see him handling Kisame & Itachi but like I said this goes either way. 





> Also, you're wrong about Jiraiya being in the way of Naruto's capture. It was explicitly stated by Itachi himself that they needed to wait for Kyuubi to be sealed last, that's why they didn't make any move, not because of Jiraiya.


They were making their move - Itachi had placed a fucking civilian in Genjutsu just to distract Jiraiya. Itachi needed to retreat so he can rest his eyes and that was an okay decision due to the fact Kyubi is going to be sealed last.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 22, 2016)

lol I love coming across those translations that support Itachi - he says "if only I had gotten my hands on Uchiha Itachi there wouldn't have been any problems." meaning Uchiha Itachi is too strong for Orochimaru to capture. I don't see how Itachi evading a body snatch puts him above J-Man tho.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

Jiraiya would beat either of the two in a 1 on 1 fight  
In fact , he'd rape Kisame  
But in a 2 on 1 fight , the team defeat him .
And , no the statement was never about Jiraiya taking on both of them at the same time , that's just some BS made up by some Itachi fans to try and make the part 01 statement sound ridiculous , but uh-uh ! nice try  
The statement still holds water even in part 02 , as Kishi slapped the Uchiha fanbase in the face again , when he gave Jiraiya the better feats against Pain , and better data in the 3rd DB 


HandfullofNaruto said:


> If we focus on feats Jiraiya would be pushed Extreme Difficulty or may even lose the battle. If we focus on what Kishimoto told us and showed us - Naruto _needed_ someone who could combat multiple Akatsuki members so that's what Kishi gave us. There is no way to get around this - Jiraiya is portrayed as someone capable of dealing with multiple Akatsuki members.


Vintage @HandfullofNaruto

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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 22, 2016)

I think its half BS, not complete BS lol...heres what i mean...

There is no way it is physically possible for Jman to win against Kisame and Itachi at the same time under neutral conditions, hed get destroyed unless the situation was highly in his favor, like full knowledge for him and none for them and whatnot,, so that part of the statement is false imo.

However, if Jman fought either one individually, hed very likely win, he is a nightmare for kisame to deal with and beats fish boy 9 times out of 10, but itachi is very close to Jman in ability and that fight is 50/50 imo, so the statement about their being individually below Jman could be more or less true.

As for scenario 2...Jman gets negged, hes up against 4 kage level opponents, and one of them on his own (itachi) gives Jman a run for his money, even if u took itachi out of that match entirely *Jman would still lose to kisame + the artists imo, there would simply be way too much shit going on for him to deal with.
*
As for a bonus question sum1 put forth, asking which akatsuki duos Jman could solo, id have to say...not many,...
Taking down an akatsuki duo is a tall order, and the only ones i could see jman beating are hidan/kakuzu, and maybe, mayyyybe sasori/deidara if he had full knowledge, even then im not 100% sure jman wins.

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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 22, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I think its half BS, not complete BS lol...heres what i mean...
> 
> There is no way it is physically possible for Jman to win against Kisame and Itachi at the same time under neutral conditions, hed get destroyed unless the situation was highly in his favor, like full knowledge for him and none for them and whatnot,, so that part of the statement is false imo.
> 
> ...


@PhantomSage plz halp....with ^^^ in mind, what do i vote for??? lol

Cuz i dont think its trash or totally wrong, it still has merit, but it is somewhat flawed for sure as Jman cant solo the two...so...halp???

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 22, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @PhantomSage plz halp....with ^^^ in mind, what do i vote for??? lol
> 
> Cuz i dont think its trash or totally wrong, it still has merit, but it is somewhat flawed for sure as Jman cant solo the two...so...halp???



I added in another poll choice.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 22, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I added in another poll choice.


You are a gentleman and a scholar my friend

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I knew you'd come around @SapherosthKisame gets taken out rather quickly and then it's Itachi vs Jiraiya which is High Difficulty for J-Dude but having to deal with Kisame as well would push him to Extreme Difficulty and like all High-Extreme Difficulty fights it can go either way - I just side with Jiraiya. If we focus on feats yes I believe Jiraiya has a chance to take both out while Kisachi has a good chance to take Jiraiya out.This actually sounds fun - I think I could make a decent argument considering




Jiraiya isn't low-diffing Kisame. That's a ridiculous statement.



> Jiraiya has the knowledge advantage.. I'll consider this.Kisame & Samehada



What knowledge advantage? He couldn't provide any valuable intel about Akatsuki member's abilities.



> Really though I could see Jiraiya handling Kakuzu & Hidan High Difficulty. I can see him handling Kisame & Itachi but like I said this goes either way. They were making their move - Itachi had placed a fucking civilian in Genjutsu just to distract Jiraiya. Itachi needed to retreat so he can rest his eyes and that was an okay decision due to the fact Kyubi is going to be sealed last.



You do realise that Itachi was a spy and had to make it believable in front of Kisame, right? 

I hope you also know that Itachi had Jiraiya completely fooled by it. Perhaps the only reason Jiraiya even realised the woman was in a genjutsu was because Itachi controlled her to purposely act suspicious so Jiraya would catch on, since Itachi is capable of controlling people from a distance with genjutsu. That would explain why Jiraiya made it in such a timely manner. Unlike Jiraiya, Itachi *knows *Jiraiya's weakness. Jiraiya didn't have a clue what he was dealing with.

He was shitting himself at the sight of Amateratsu.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 22, 2016)

so basically only half of Itachis statement is true -


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 22, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> so basically only half of Itachis statement is true -


PM this

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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

Oddly, Jiraiya was never mentioned as the reason why they didn't capture the Kyuubi. 



Kisame was itching for 9 tail's capture.





Afterwards Kisame conceded.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Oddly, Jiraiya was never mentioned as the reason why they didn't capture the Kyuubi.


Oddly, at that point, Jman wasnt residing anywhere near Naruto...

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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Oddly, at that point, Jman wasnt residing anywhere near Naruto...




Are you kidding me?


Literally 3 pages after:



Who's the guy with that big white hair? 

SOT6P?

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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Are you kidding me?
> 
> 
> Literally 3 pages after:


Are you kidding me? He returned to deliver news of oros death...he wasnt perma in the village...he literally never was at any point during the manga...only pre manga...


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Are you kidding me? He returned to deliver news of oros death...he wasnt perma in the village...he literally never was at any point during the manga...only pre manga...





Wow...You said "At that point, Jiraiya wasn't anywhere near Naruto".......And I proved you wrong. 

What I was discussing was whether or not Jiraiya was the reason Akatsuki avoided capturing Naruto. I proved that Jiraiya wasn't the reason Akatsuki didn't capture Naruto.

The panel I showed basically explained to us why Akatsuki didn't find and capture Naruto during the time-skip. It's not rocket science.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 22, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the statement is still valid, I just think people have either misinterpreted it or maybe not given it enough thought. Itachi says that if he and Jiraiya were to face off, it would be a difficult battle without a clear winner. He then says that even if he had backup ie. _Kisame, _the result wouldn't change.

This makes sense though. Sick Itachi is about as strong as Jiraiya is, and even if you did consider the former to be stronger than the latter, they're still in the same tier and would successfully wound each other as Itachi said they would. 

Kisame is about a tier below Jiraiya in power. On a good day, he's a Mid-Tier Kage level rather than a High-Tier one. However, Kisame is terrible at fighting in team matches. He can't use any large AOE suitons without effectively drowning his allies in the process. Daikoudan can't be used without hitting Itachi, neither can Suirō Sameodori or Senshokukō. With an ally by his side, he's limited to small scale suitons and taijutsu like he was against Asuma and Kurenai, making him a far less versatile and overall powerful combatant.

Itachi and Kisame fighting as a team couldn't really do any better against SM Jiraiya than Itachi could by himself, because Kisame restricted of his best techniques is kind of a non factor anyway. Gamabunta and the gang would dispose of him, or Jiraiya would take him out himself while his temporarily toads stalled Itachi. 

My opinion probably isn't going to be popular though

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## LostSelf (Dec 22, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kisame is about a tier below Jiraiya in power. On a good day, he's a Mid-Tier Kage level rather than a High-Tier one. However, Kisame is terrible at fighting in team matches. He can't use any large AOE suitons without effectively drowning his allies in the process. Daikoudan can't be used without hitting Itachi, neither can Suirō Sameodori or Senshokukō. With an ally by his side, he's limited to small scale suitons and taijutsu like he was against Asuma and Kurenai, making him a far less versatile and overall powerful combatant.



Even though this makes sense, in the manga is like a bit different. Team attacks kind of doesn't affect the other and they're ilogically maneuver through it.

Onoki reacting shifting Ei's extreme speed, Ei seeing through Hidden mist are some examples.

Later on we have more. Gaara's sand carrying Kakashi faster than 8th gated Gai'sspeed (Gaara moving his arm as well), or Gaara lifting a wall of sand before Kamui finishes manifestating.

People somehow are not bothered by it. Even though it makes a lot of sense that Kisame's huge lake bothers Itachi.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya isn't low-diffing Kisame. That's a ridiculous statement. What knowledge advantage? He couldn't provide any valuable intel about Akatsuki member's abilities.


I didn't say he'd take him out with Low - Difficulty but early on.. it's a High-Extreme Difficulty Battle. Jiraiya has knowledge on Sharingan Genjutsu - Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu. He has knowledge on Samehada Chakra Absorption. They have knowledge on Gamaguchi Shibari and a single Toad Summon. 





> You do realise that Itachi was a spy and had to make it believable in front of Kisame, right?


Itachi being a spy doesn't change what Kishimoto gave us and it doesn't change Itachis statements - Naruto the Jinchuriki was being targeted by Itachi & Kisame two S-Rank Akatsuki members. He was not safe in the village and not safe when alone he needed a bodyguard that could combat multiple Akatsuki members - enter Jiraiya. Itachi & Kisame are ready to kidnap Naruto but Jiraiya is there. After both admit inferiority to Jiraiya Itachi decides to place a civilian into a Sharingan Genjutsu so that Jiraiya will be distracted and they'd safely be able to grab Naruto. Once they have Naruto and are ready to leave Sasuke shows up to distract them.. let's just pause right here for a second and think if Jiraiya didn't exist then what would happen??? Would Kisame & Itachi get pressured by that Naru/Sasu tag team and retreat? No what happened was simple Kishi being the genius that he is gave us a character that can effectively protect Naruto! Itachi being a spy doesn't change any of this. You can replace Itachi with any other Akatsuki member (bar Obito/Pein Rikudo for obvious reasons) and the same shit would happen except Gamaguchi Shibari would probably tear them apart. 





> I hope you also know that Itachi had Jiraiya completely fooled by it. Perhaps the only reason Jiraiya even realised the woman was in a genjutsu was because Itachi controlled her to purposely act suspicious so Jiraya would catch on, since Itachi is capable of controlling people from a distance with genjutsu. That would explain why Jiraiya made it in such a timely manner. Unlike Jiraiya, Itachi





> *knows *Jiraiya's weakness. Jiraiya didn't have a clue what he was dealing with.


Jiraiya made it in time because Sasuke stalled the duo that was taking off with Naruto. What you just told me was that Itachi put a civilian in a Genjutsu and made her act like she was in a Genjutsu..


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## Ayala (Dec 22, 2016)

Even if Kisame was restricted to punches, the duo still would take out Jiraya. Literally just punch him in the back of his neck while he's busy with Itachi (and he WILL be busy with Itachi). 

Honestly, i used to think Itachi was overrated and the sannin were always the underdogs, but stuff like Jiraya taking on and defeating Akatsuki duos by himsef makes me think it again.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 22, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Even though this makes sense, in the manga is like a bit different. Team attacks kind of doesn't affect the other and they're ilogically maneuver through it.
> 
> Onoki reacting shifting Ei's extreme speed, Ei seeing through Hidden mist are some examples.
> 
> ...



Meh. Kishimoto adapts things to his needs. We have other examples where Mei can't use Futon on a team without hurting her teammates, where Kakuzu's Atsugai wounds his teammate, where Pein can't use Chibaku Tensei/Chou Shinra Tensei without destroying Amegakure, where Onoki can't use Jinton without injuring the people on the Island Turtle etc. etc.


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## Ayala (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Reminds me of a certain poster here , his user name is after a certain Raiton Jutsu , and was spewing nonsense like Kakashi defeating the three Sannin by himself
> Or better , Kakashi solo'ing the Gokage
> You didn't seem to be bothered by that



I wasn't around at the time Raikiri was making those claims. Im not at that levels of wank, not even once did i go that far or agreed with simmilar statements.

Edit: why you deleted your post son, that was the least harmful post you've written in the last 24 hours.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 22, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Even if Kisame was restricted to punches, the duo still would take out Jiraya. Literally just punch him in the back of his neck while he's busy with Itachi (and he WILL be busy with Itachi).
> 
> Honestly, i used to think Itachi was overrated and the sannin were always the underdogs, but stuff like Jiraya taking on and defeating Akatsuki duos by himsef makes me think it again.



Kisame could never defeat Jiraiya with a punch lol. Even if he can shatter parts of walls with his fists, Jiraiya had his arm blown off and could still fight without even flinching. Anyway, even if Itachi does have his attention, Kisame is not fast enough to intercept Jiraiya while he has Sage Sensing, a sensory barrier and boss summons looking out for him.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I didn't say he'd take him out with Low - Difficulty but early on.. it's a High-Extreme Difficulty Battle.




How is he taking Kisame out with Itachi around? You think Itachi is just going to stand there? 



> Jiraiya has knowledge on Sharingan Genjutsu - Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu.



Jiraiya has no idea what Tsukuyomi and Amateratsu are. 



> Itachi being a spy doesn't change what Kishimoto gave us and it doesn't change Itachis statements -



It changes.....To say it doesn't change what Kishi gave us is ridiculous. What's the point of turning Itachi into a good guy and having Obito say Itachi returned to Konoha to warn Danzo? It changed the whole perspective of Itachi's appearance in Konoha.....

That's the whole point of being a spy....you lie. It was even emphasised later on in the war arc.



> After both admit inferiority to Jiraiya



Where did Itachi admit inferiority? 



> You can replace Itachi with any other Akatsuki member (bar Obito/Pein Rikudo for obvious reasons) and the same shit would happen except Gamaguchi Shibari would probably tear them apart. Jiraiya made it in time because Sasuke stalled the duo that was taking off with Naruto.


 

Lmao. What's Jiraiya gonna do with Deidara's bombs in that enclosed space? Sasori's AOE poison needles and gas, Kakuzu's elemental combinations? 

You really didn't think it through, did you...



> What you just told me was that Itachi put a civilian in a Genjutsu and made her act like she was in a Genjutsu..



No reason why Itachi can't do that. Just to give Jiraiya a little hint that something isn't right. Itachi is perfectly capable of controlling the girl into doing whatever he wants her to, including acting suspicious so Jiraiya realises something is off. 

The whole using the girl as bait thing was just for show to Kisame. 

Not that hard to grasp when you think about it. Just like when you interpret Orochimaru's statement about Itachi in a completely different context than everyone else.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 22, 2016)

Glad to see the majority of the forums agrees the part 1 statement is trash.


OT: I don't see Jiraiya beating any Akatsuki duo. Kakuzu alone gives Jiraiya a serious challenge, throwing in Hidan makes this a solid high diff battle for the duo. 

The artistic duo trash the perv.


It's just retconned Sannin hype. If this were a p1 discussion, that statement would hold a TON of weight, but when you include p2 and Itachi and Kisames respective feats hype and portrayal, it's clear either one of them would best Jiraiya in a battle solo.


The duo low diff him at most together.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kisame could never defeat Jiraiya with a punch lol. Even if he can shatter parts of walls with his fists, Jiraiya had his arm blown off and could still fight without even flinching. Anyway, even if Itachi does have his attention, Kisame is not fast enough to intercept Jiraiya while he has Sage Sensing, a sensory barrier and boss summons looking out for him.




In order for Jiraiya to have that "sage sensing" which he never showed to begin with, he has to fight *without using his hands *for a while.


It's basically saying Jiraiya with no hands can solo Itachi and Kisame.


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## Ayala (Dec 22, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kisame could never defeat Jiraiya with a punch lol. Even if he can shatter parts of walls with his fists, Jiraiya had his arm blown off and could still fight without even flinching. Anyway, even if Itachi does have his attention, Kisame is not fast enough to intercept Jiraiya while he has Sage Sensing, a sensory barrier and boss summons looking out for him.



I didn't mention SM, as i don't see Jiraya entering that mode against the two of them.

 In SM, he can take that punch, but in base, he's getting knocked out 10/10 times.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 22, 2016)

Unlike fanfictions like jiraiya cannot avoid.. . . ...... Itachi did not want to.. .. Kisame himself did not say stuff like "Itachi let's lit up amaterasu on jiraiys head " or " let put him under genjutsu" when amaterasu and tsukyomi were even present in the first part.

Jiraiya was made to watch naruto alone even outside of village and later faces pain the strongest one  not sb like kakazu kisame. Jiraiyas hype never went down.

Sb like hiruzen seemingly who had no Chance against ay was portrayed above him.
So if the fight were happen kishi would have given jiraiya and itachi counters to their respective jutsu as we have seen a simple substitution clone bail ninjas out of various situations

Two low lives such as itachi and kisame were  bound to die if they engaged with gai back up and danzo+anbus to come that's another of reason


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## Parallaxis (Dec 22, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Unlike fanfictions like jiraiya cannot avoid.. . . ...... Itachi did not want to.. .. Kisame himself did not say stuff like "Itachi let's lit up amaterasu on jiraiys head " or " let put him under genjutsu" when amaterasu and tsukyomi were even present in the first part.
> 
> Jiraiya was made to watch naruto alone even outside of village and later faces pain the strongest one  not sb like kakazu kisame. Jiraiyas hype never went down.
> 
> ...



Anbu are fodder tho 
Danzo would probably sit back and watch and collect Itachi's eyes once the battle was over


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 22, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Anbu are fodder tho
> Danzo would probably sit back and watch and collect Itachi's eyes once the battle was over


Even then you need  jutsu against fodder and combination attacks are deadly in all aspects

Danzo would have obviously fought itachi  with backup when he was ready to take on madara and sasuke at the same time even without backup and koto.


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## Muah (Dec 22, 2016)

This is a question only because Joriya is dead. He died to pein/nagato who is stronger in manyways than itachi. Even in his defeat it was stated that having no knowledge on pein is what caused him to be defeated. He also completely destroyed pein without barely being touched. What killed him was the surprise attack from thinking that he had won.

Also itachi was two years younger and undoubtedly weaker. At gis current level he would have lost to jiriya and a drawn out battle where he might have a chance to summon ma and pa they definently didnt stand a chance. 

Though people underestimate jiriyas base. The variety and strenght of his jutsu is nearly unmatched by all the current kage. Tgis was in part one where fighting took concentration and thinking.

Itachi knew he was outmatched. Infact like sasuke vs danzou the only thing Itachi had to even begin to match Jiriya was spamming EMS which would deteriate him quickly.

Jiriya had alot of experince with genjutsu users and fidnt seem at all fazed by the though of itachi using genjutsu on him.
Theres more than one way to win a battle than brute force and joriya was simply a better ninja.


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## Bookworm (Dec 22, 2016)

If Itachi and Jiraiya fought, I doubt Kishi would give Jiraiya jutsu to counter Itachi, even though he may have some. Instead he would either give Jiraiya advantages or give Itachi handicaps.


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## Infernal Imp (Dec 22, 2016)

Such a silly, outlandish statement in hindsight. 

*Scenario 1*: I say low-mid diff since Kisame is a stamina freak not unlike Jman and could easily distract him enough to not focus on Itachi or be able to summon/go into sage-mode (he's not evading Itachi AND Kisame, especially since there's not pipes for him to zig-zag through this time and Itachi likely knows Konoha just as well as he does). Itachi then promptly catches him off guard and puts him in tsukuyomi (Jiraiya has never displayed any way to get out of higher tier genjutsu, hell the way he taught Naruto got shit diffed by a clone with 30% of Itachi's chakra and finger genjutsu). After that, he's easy pickings for sharkskin. 

*Scenario 2*: Lol neg diff win for team.


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## Blu-ray (Dec 22, 2016)

That statement seemed like bs even back then since Orochimaru, Jiraiya's contemporary, flat out said Itachi was stronger than him, _5 chapters before that_. Kisame questioning why he of all people had to flee doesn't help. His portrayal was clearly above any individual Sannin. 



HandfullofNaruto said:


> lol I love coming across those translations that support Itachi - he says "if only I had gotten my hands on Uchiha Itachi there wouldn't have been any problems." meaning Uchiha Itachi is too strong for Orochimaru to capture. I don't see how Itachi evading a body snatch puts him above J-Man tho.



I don't know of any such translation, but here's the official one. He says Itachi is stronger than him, not that he's too strong to capture, and frankly Itachi proved it when he beat him twice.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 22, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> I didn't mention SM, as i don't see Jiraya entering that mode against the two of them.
> 
> In SM, he can take that punch, but in base, he's getting knocked out 10/10 times.



Even when he reverts back into base, he fights armless.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 22, 2016)

I think at the time Jiraiya would have won. Itachi was handicapping himself to help Konoha. And I don't think Kishi even made the executioners' blades special yet (Zabuza's Executioner's Blade didn't replenish from blood and nothing was said about Samehada. I don't believe he even gave any indication of consciousness even through the Guy fight in the Kazekage Rescue Arc except maybe his stabbing Guy's hand kinda indicated it). I think where Kishi was at the time of the story, Jiraiya was stronger. but then he killed Jiraiya off with pain and still had Kisame fighting harder and harder battles, making him keep up with each. And then had Itachi come back able to fight at a higher level than he was portrayed at his time of death.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 22, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I think at the time Jiraiya would have won. Itachi was handicapping himself to help Konoha. And I don't think Kishi even made the executioners' blades special yet (Zabuza's Executioner's Blade didn't replenish from blood and nothing was said about Samehada. I don't believe he even gave any indication of consciousness even through the Guy fight in the Kazekage Rescue Arc except maybe his stabbing Guy's hand kinda indicated it). I think where Kishi was at the time of the story, Jiraiya was stronger. but then he killed Jiraiya off with pain and still had Kisame fighting harder and harder battles, making him keep up with each. And then had Itachi come back able to fight at a higher level than he was portrayed at his time of death.




It was clear Samehada could absorb chakra when he took some from Naruto.

Outside of that, nothing was really seen from Kisame in P1


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 22, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> It was clear Samehada could absorb chakra when he took some from Naruto.
> 
> Outside of that, nothing was really seen from Kisame in P1


did he? Shows how bad my memory is I guess. I only remembered him threatening to cut his legs, and later arms, off


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 22, 2016)

Who cares about statements anyway.

We got a shit ton of feats from Jiraiya, itachi, and kisame. We know where they stand powerwise. 

They beat Jiraiya just fine. Kisame is more then enough to hold J-mans attention and if your not focused on itachi your a dead man just ask nagato.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Baroxio (Dec 22, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> lol I love coming across those translations that support Itachi - he says "if only I had gotten my hands on Uchiha Itachi there wouldn't have been any problems." meaning Uchiha Itachi is too strong for Orochimaru to capture. I don't see how Itachi evading a body snatch puts him above J-Man tho.



Do you have an alternate translation? Orochimaru also says this:



So it seems as clear as day to me that Kishimoto is literally saying that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru, which clashes with his portrayal of Orochimaru being equal to (if not greater than) Jiraiya.

While we're at it, I would like the OP to include a fourth option to the poll: Itachi and Kisame weren't talking about Jiraiya, they were talking about a possibly fully realized Jinchuriki of the 9 tailed fox. Not only does it make grammatical sense (the "his babysitter" comment indicating that they were talking about Naruto prior), but given what we know of how powerful a fully realized Jinchuriki is (and that Magenkyou Sharingan is literally it's counter), the comment concerning "backup" also begins to make sense.

Now, Kisame does mention that title-wise, Jiraiya's title as a "Sanin" dwarfs their titles as "7 Swordsmen of the Mist" and "Uchiha Clan" respectively. But Itachi clearly isn't any old Uchiha. And Kisame is the strongest of the 7 Swordsmen. So the title comparison is moot. Not to mention, redundant, if they already proclaimed Jiraiya's strength.

Even in the best case scenario, where they are talking about Jiraiya, all they say is that he's roughly the same strength as Itachi. The backup that Itachi mentions goes both ways (at least in some translations it does), which makes sense when we know for a fact that Gai (someone who canonically beats Kisame) is hot on their tails.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 22, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> Do you have an alternate translation? Orochimaru also says this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Get to cover, truth bombs are being dropped


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 23, 2016)

d. none of the above

you can't ret-con the outcome a fight that never took place

the statement wasn't silly in hindsight either
but thats cuz most of U ignore/miss the context in which it was made


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Wow...You said "At that point, Jiraiya wasn't anywhere near Naruto".......And I proved you wrong.


No...no i didnt...i said "residing near naruto"...check again bro.

Residing as in he wasnt perma near naruto, he was in the village only briefly at that time.

Either way i more or less agree with you, If akatsuki wanted Naruto, like really badly, Jman alone wouldnt have been able to stop them. Any decent duo would be enough to take jman down, just saying its not like the man is irrelevant when it comes to capping the kyuubi for em, thats all.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> Do you have an alternate translation? Orochimaru also says this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well, we got to see Itachi embarrass the shit outta Orochimaru. So that's not much of a stretch. But that doesn't mean the same applies to Jiraiya. Matchup is an important factor. Though I think Itachi would kill Jiraiya if he really wanted


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## Sapherosth (Dec 23, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No...no i didnt...i said "residing near naruto"...check again bro.
> 
> Residing as in he wasnt perma near naruto, he was in the village only briefly at that time.
> 
> Either way i more or less agree with you, If akatsuki wanted Naruto, like really badly, Jman alone wouldnt have been able to stop them. Any decent duo would be enough to take jman down, just saying its not like the man is irrelevant when it comes to capping the kyuubi for em, thats all.




But he is irrelevant. Akatsuki's concern were never J-man. It was only the order in which the Bijuu's have to be sealed and Obito's deal with Itachi. 

Kisame even tried to talk Itachi into rushing to capture Naruto. Jiraiya wasn't in the equation whatsoever.


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2016)

I would say kisame and itachi wouldn't work well as a team they would only get in each other way 
For kisame to be competitive against jiriaya he is going to have to use his Large AOE techniques which itachi would just be caught in

So both fighting at the same time nerfs them 

The statement is retconned because while jiriaya is still superior to kisame for the most part he most certainly isn't superior to itachi 

The duo would absolutely murder him 

In that situation in the manga itachi would have simply used susanoo to protect them both then used Amaterasu on jiriaya who would just barely survive by sealing the flames 

So already he is half beat up and the duo are fresh and ready to go 

I think when kishi made that statement he imagined the duo a lot weaker or jiriaya a lot stronger

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think the statement is still valid, I just think people have either misinterpreted it or maybe not given it enough thought. Itachi says that if he and Jiraiya were to face off, it would be a difficult battle without a clear winner. He then says that even if he had backup ie. _Kisame, _the result wouldn't change.
> 
> This makes sense though. Sick Itachi is about as strong as Jiraiya is, and even if you did consider the former to be stronger than the latter, they're still in the same tier and would successfully wound each other as Itachi said they would.
> 
> ...



I Am of the same opinion a small suiton scale kisame would make no difference to the battle 
If itachi wins he would do so by himself 
If he looses kisame wouldn't change that 

Now if somehow itachi is immune to his partner own attacks then they babyshake


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 24, 2016)

1st of all Itachi and stroy around him is retconned cuz of Kishimoto didnt expect that much success about Naruto Series (this is his own quote).. He need an avenger a motivation source for naruto.. So thats why he must keep Sasuke at dark side.. So thats why Itachi retconned ..

We have to know or accept before discuss this topic.

_________________

IF Jiraiya's portrayal and hype only contained part 1 then ım probably aint gonna count on Kisame and Itachi's words about Jiraiya at part 1 (like Oro and Hiruzen's port and hype is comes from mostly).

But sadly for Itachi and Kisame, Jiraiya also havve great portrayal and feats at part 2 too..

Nagato (who is clearly more powerfull than both Itachi and Kisame) admits Jiraiya's power on his 6 Paths... If Jiraiya fights him like Naruto (fair fight) he probably gonna win... And Nagato said "we never win..." "NEVER"..

3 time Hokage candidate..

So he has also part 2 hype too.. Then ı can see Jiraiya's victory over akatsuki duo... DUe to kishimoto's and manga's parameters even against existence of retcon.

Jiraiya mostly a ninjutsu and guerilla tactic warrior..

But ninjutsu absorbtion and pain's home field advantage crippled Jiraiya's most trusted assets... So even in these terms he still left his mark on that battle.. And his enemy knows him ?! Jiraiya found 1 thing Nagato didnt know and it was good enough for the victory.. With just one thing !! One !..

So ıf you look this type of versatility... You can easily assume he can also dominate a fight against Itachi and Kisame.

If you look like a rating match-up on that fight... Yeah you can easily assume victory of Akatsuki Duo.

Cuz Jiraiya : 8  -> Itachi: 6,5+ Kisame: 5,5 = 12 > 8 .. With this logic ı can see why people didnt accept that claim.. Actually you dont need to accept that claim (due to retcon)..

But Jiraiya also have another phrase from Nagato.. So ıf you're gonna follow this hints.. You can clearly see a pattern about Jiraiya which is shows him as a clear superior on akatsuki duo.

_____________________

If we come to the fight with feats (w/o portrayals) ;

It can go to either way on different situations.

But Itachi and Kisame aint not compatible duo (fire-water , chakra issues-chakra drain, fight in a small lake-fight on ground, etc ,etc). .

So thats why that rating logic (12>8) wont gonna work..

And Jiraiya aint a guy you cant easily outnumbered due to summons, clone feints, ma&pa.. So 2 akatsuki member (ıf they're not nagato or obito) jiraiya can battled with any duo from akatsuki fairly (ı cant guarantee a win but he can fight greatly).

Senjutsu -> Samehada
Sensing+Ma&Pa + Sound Stunt -> Any Genjutsu attempt
Giant Summons -> Water Dome or Lakes
Barriers -> Daikodan
Sensing + Super Speed + Seal -> Amaterasu
Experience + Senjutsu -> Precog
Giant Hairs + Giant Toads + Giant Releases + Gİant Rasengans + Nearly infinite stamina -> Susano or 1000 Shark Tidal Waves
Summons + Gamadaira + Barriers -> Clone Feints + Mizubunshin + Water Prison

Plus 5 element Seal, Kaeru Kaeru no Jutsu are one touch techniques and can be deadly for both of them.. I can see Jiraiya turnin samehada to a frog (ıf samehada have some neuron and chakra system and looks like its have).

Gamaguchi Shibari, Gourd Toad Prison can able to seperate duo (same for samehada and kisame) 

Itachi might die at cross fire of Kisame and Jiraiya (giant elemental releases) he needs to stay away or release susano both gonna increased Itachi's productivity

____________________________

Jiraiya full of answers + knowledge + experience + versatlity for akatsuki duo..

This is can go to either way or stalemate.. But ı dont agree with who is saying ;" Jiraiya aint no chance this is a stomp"

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 24, 2016)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 24, 2016)

Sakura negs Itachi confirmed.


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## t0xeus (Dec 24, 2016)

Do you guys think that Amaterasu was the only valid option for escaping from that toad stomach in P1?


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## Serene Grace (Dec 24, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Do you guys think that Amaterasu was the only valid option for escaping from that toad stomach in P1?


Inb4 for itachi using a kunai.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 24, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Inb4 for itachi using a kunai.




He could have smashed it with Susanoo.


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## Baroxio (Dec 24, 2016)

Pretty sure 1000 feeding sharks would make short work of a couple meat walls, IMHO.


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## Azula (Dec 24, 2016)

Kisame was in serious trouble, already his sword was stuck in Jiraiya's jutsu and Samehada is half his strength to begin with.

He didn't have the luxury of hanging around to try and summon either water or shark because the jutsu would engulf and capture him.

And even if by some impossible speed he managed to summon whatever little water or one-two sharks he could they wouldn't put much of fight.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

It's hilarious to think the toad stomach would have taken out Kisame if he was alone.

He can easily flood the entire stomach with sharks that Jiraiya has no answer for underwater so he'll be forced to cancel the jutsu or let his frog get eaten from inside out.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 24, 2016)

Kisame weaving handsign flooding and then using  sharks against  against a swift attack. (1) Kisame himself disagrees.


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It's hilarious to think the toad stomach would have taken out Kisame if he was alone.
> 
> He can easily flood the entire stomach with sharks that Jiraiya has no answer for underwater so he'll be forced to cancel the jutsu or let his frog get eaten from inside out.



Or he could just drag kisame inside toad gourd prison 

So he gains field advantage once again 

If kisame counters toad stomach by barfing a lake


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## Clowe (Dec 24, 2016)

If Jiraiya can beat both Itachi and Kisame then I guess Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage as well?

You can't take part 1 statements at face value anymore when they directly contradict part 2 standards.


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## Turrin (Dec 24, 2016)

There's no need to test it. We saw what happened. Jiraiya used a Jutsu that pressured Itachi, while Kisame was useless. And that's how the fight would go, Kisame would be useless and Itachi would have a tough fight against Jiraiya that could go ether way.

This is the same exact shit that happened with Konan and Pain too. Konan was useless and told to GTFO, while the fight came down to Jiraiya vs Pain.

And no Kisame could not flood the stomach as Jiraiya has completely control over the size and space of the stomach itself, so he'd just expanded it to proportions which Kisame could not flood.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Dec 24, 2016)

I think there are two explanations for that Part 1 statement: one meta and one in-story.

The meta-explanation is power-scaling. Kishi probably planned for basic Susano'o at that time, since he'd already established the two jutsu named after Susano'o's siblings in Shinto mythology. But he may not have planned for Yata Mirror, Totsuka Sword, Yasaka no Magatama, Kotoamatsukami crow, Itachi keeping up with Bee and SM Naruto in CQC, Suiro: Sameodori, Kisame's bijuu-level chakra, Samehada granting regen, Senjikizame, and so on. 

The in-story explanation is that Itachi was deliberately underestimating his own strength because he didn't want to actually capture Naruto. (It's also reasonable that he would want to conceal the extent of his power from people he's not actually aligned with. Almost like he's a competent ninja or something.)


With regard to the matchup, the biggest problem Jiraiya presents for the duo is that Samehada can't safely absorb natural energy. If Kisame absorbs too much, he'll turn into a frog statue. That said, it takes some time for Jiraiya to go into SM. The location is Konoha, which is Jiraiya's home turf, but also Itachi's--Jiraiya wouldn't have as easy a time hiding to start up SM as he did against Pain. And while Jiraiya had a sealing tag that he used on the Amaterasu Itachi cast on the frog stomach, it would be a lot harder for him to get that set up if the Amaterasu was cast on _him. _I don't think J-Man really has any answer to a direct hit with Amaterasu, or to the Sword of Totsuka.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2016)

Turrin said:


> There's no need to test it. We saw what happened. Jiraiya used a Jutsu that pressured Itachi, while Kisame was useless. And that's how the fight would go, Kisame would be useless and Itachi would have a tough fight against Jiraiya that could go ether way.
> 
> This is the same exact shit that happened with Konan and Pain too. Konan was useless and told to GTFO, while the fight came down to Jiraiya vs Pain.
> 
> And no Kisame could not flood the stomach as Jiraiya has completely control over the size and space of the stomach itself, so he'd just expanded it to proportions which Kisame could not flood.



I don't think jiriaya can increase the size of the stomach
Isn't it restricted to the area he  summons the stomach on ?

Read DB
I take it back 

Yh jiriaya could just expand the stomach


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2016)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> I think there are two explanations for that Part 1 statement: one meta and one in-story.
> 
> The meta-explanation is power-scaling. Kishi probably planned for basic Susano'o at that time, since he'd already established the two jutsu named after Susano'o's siblings in Shinto mythology. But he may not have planned for Yata Mirror, Totsuka Sword, Yasaka no Magatama, Kotoamatsukami crow, Itachi keeping up with Bee and SM Naruto in CQC, Suiro: Sameodori, Kisame's bijuu-level chakra, Samehada granting regen, Senjikizame, and so on.
> 
> ...



Agreed 
But kishi may not have fine tuned jiriaya powers either 
Case in point giving him frog katas retrospectively 

So I feel each character mentioned here went to the extent of their power allowed in the verse 

It is like itachi said though. If we take into account kisame isn't a friendly fighter in the sense where his utility is based on large scale which can not only be countered but only gets in itachi way 

In any case kisame is the weakest link here


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## Azula (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> He can easily flood the entire stomach with sharks that Jiraiya has no answer for underwater



Even generally speaking Kisame has edge over Jiraiya whatsoever.

Much of Jiraiya's strength is based on toad based summoning and you know toads are amphibian.

Meaning they are comfortable on land as well as water and will be able to fight unlike others. 

Which means the huge advantage Kisame gains when going underwater against anyone other is completely gone against Jiraiya.

Toad summons are intelligent and bigger than Kisame's puny sharks and their collaboration ninjutsu with Jiraiya would roast the fishies alive.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Or he could just drag kisame inside toad gourd prison
> 
> So he gains field advantage once again
> 
> If kisame counters toad stomach by barfing a lake



You make it sound sooooo easy to just drag Kisame into a gourd prison as if there isn't going to be any resistant.

Might as well say Kisame low-diffs by using Daikokan in that enclosed space.


I also laughed quite hard at the thought of Jiraiya expanding the toad's stomach to cover the size of a mountain while crouching down in the same place as if Kisame isn't going to send 1000 sharks or daikokan at him.




-Azula- said:


> Even generally speaking Kisame has edge over Jiraiya whatsoever.
> 
> Much of Jiraiya's strength is based on toad based summoning and you know toads are amphibian.
> 
> ...




So what? Kisame is still much better underwater than Jiraiya is, since he can breath, sense and absorb chakra. The toads can be fine underwater, but Jiraiya isnt. The so called "puny sharks" would probably do better than the big summons that the toads fought against since they're a smaller target to hit and has vastly superior numbers. 


As for your last technique, Daikokan counters that hard and would destroy both Jiraiya and his toad.


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You make it sound sooooo easy to just drag Kisame into a gourd prison as if there isn't going to be any resistant.
> 
> Might as well say Kisame low-diffs by using Daikokan in that enclosed space.
> 
> ...



Only bEcause you make it sound like kisame can barf a lake in jiriaya toad stomach and suddenly jiriaya is defenceless when 

1) the stomach can expand 
2) jiriaya can drag him into toad gourd prison 

No idea how he did so to animal path but with 10 other eyes watching he pulled it off 

Sadly kisame hasn't shown the ability to use daikodan without first draining bijuu chakra 

Thus the part 2 statement of I am stronger the stronger my enemy is . 

You can laugh all you want . Jiriaya can and will expand it if needed 

1000 fodder sharks that have no feats or hype 

Yh . Jiriaya could easily summon bunta and the force generated from The summon would disperse them seeing how easily it dispersed gaara sand

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Only bEcause you make it sound like kisame can barf a lake in jiriaya toad stomach and suddenly jiriaya is defenceless when
> 
> 1) the stomach can expand
> 2) jiriaya can drag him into toad gourd prison
> ...




1. Can it expand to the size of a mountain? Do you have ANY idea on how much water Kisame can produce? 

I might as well say Itachi can use Tsukuyomi and make it last 1000 years since Itachi can control the time and space within it. 


2. How? Kisame isn't a stationary target for people to drag into gourd prison low diff.


You're telling me that Kisame is only limited to using Daikokan when he has access to Bijuu chakra? Wow.....proof? 

You don't understand the concept of that statement at all.


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## Turrin (Dec 24, 2016)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> I think there are two explanations for that Part 1 statement: one meta and one in-story.
> 
> The meta-explanation is power-scaling. Kishi probably planned for basic Susano'o at that time, since he'd already established the two jutsu named after Susano'o's siblings in Shinto mythology. But he may not have planned for Yata Mirror, Totsuka Sword, Yasaka no Magatama, Kotoamatsukami crow, Itachi keeping up with Bee and SM Naruto in CQC, Suiro: Sameodori, Kisame's bijuu-level chakra, Samehada granting regen, Senjikizame, and so on.
> .


Honestly nothing changed in PII. Kisame is simply no threat to Itachi and J-man level ninja under normal circumstances. Much like Konan was no threat to J-man under normal circumstances and sidelined in Jiraiya's battle against Pain; the same exact thing would occur if we replace Kisame with Konan and Pain w/ Itachi; Kisame would have next to zero impact. 

People only have a problem with this because they draw from Kisame's feats against B & Gai, but ignore that special circumstances were in play during both those fights allowing Kisame to absorb a shit load of Bijuu Chakra (and in Gai fight an Ocean to draw on). It's the same fallacious logic as drawing from Konan's feats against Obito while ignoring that circumstance allowed Konan access to a shit ton of Paper Explosives. 

However under neutral conditions Kisame is a Ninja who would struggle with P1-Kakashi and did struggle with Roshi; and his fellow 7Mist Swordsmen even ones hyped as greater Geniuses then himself like Mangetsu and Zabuza were never that strong. Which supports the fact that normally he's nowhere near Itachi and J-man in strength.

-----

Then as far as Itachi vs Jiraiya goes, Jiraiya does have counters to Itachi's Jutsu in SM. And if Kishimoto had Jiriaya achieve SM against the stronger then Itachi, Pain, then there is little reason to believe he'd fail to do so against Itachi.


So realistically how the battle would go, is Jiraiya would use some Jutsu and Kisame would be helpless, forcing Itachi to save him, and then Itachi would tell Kisame to GTFO like Pain did with Konan. Then Jiriaya would realize Itachi's power from him countering his Jutsu and fall back for SM, which he'd achieve considering he achieved it against Pain. Then we'd have a good fight between SM-J-man and Itachi. 

Which honestly is basically what happened in the hall way. Jiraiya used Toad Stomach, Kisame was useless as fuck, Itachi had to save them w/ Amaterasu, which made Jiriaya realize just how dangerous he was. If the battle continued J-man likely would have fallen back for SM, and Itachi would have likely told Kisame to GTFO so he didn't have to save his ass again.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Dec 24, 2016)

Turrin is exaggerating imo, Yamato and the other jonins praised Kisame saying he was strong enough to be paired with Itachi. In no way that implies he'd get in his way. 

At the hall that time, all the duo really had to do was engage Jiraya who had both his hands "tied up" and crouching down and beat him. That is the most realistic scenario and how a non plot restrained one goes. 

Say Jiraya caught Kisame in his jutsu: 

What happens meanwhile, is Itachi standing still? Why wouldn't Itachi attack Jiraya the moment he's preparing the jutsu for example?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Honestly nothing changed in PII. Kisame is simply no threat to Itachi and J-man level ninja under normal circumstances. Much like Konan was no threat to J-man under normal circumstances and sidelined in Jiraiya's battle against Pain; the same exact thing would occur if we replace Kisame with Konan and Pain w/ Itachi; Kisame would have next to zero impact.



Konan was no threat because Jiraiya had the right counters and knew her abilities. If you directly look at her performance against Obito (*someone who everyone agrees to be superior to Jiraiya*), she did a hell of a lot better. In fact, she would have done far better than Jiraiya would, due to her skillset.

The fact that you're trying to say Kisame is non-factor is ridiculous. It's like me saying Kakashi/Gai were non-factor when assisting Naruto and Bee against Rinnegan Obito and Bijuu's because it's agreed that Naruto/Bee and Obito > both Kakashi and Gai.

Your logic is flawed as hell.



> People only have a problem with this because they draw from Kisame's feats against B & Gai, but ignore that special circumstances were in play during both those fights allowing Kisame to absorb a shit load of Bijuu Chakra (and in Gai fight an Ocean to draw on). It's the same fallacious logic as drawing from Konan's feats against Obito while ignoring that circumstance allowed Konan access to a shit ton of Paper Explosives.



You also forgot that Kisame spent weeks inside Samehada without food or water and was severely weakened prior to that.
Kisame was simply playing it smart and used whatever means necessary when he was outnumbered. Jiraiya couldn't have done the same in that situation.

Konan managed to injure Obito far more than Minato did BEFORE the river of explosives. Does this mean that she's superior to Minato? Not to mention Jiraiya couldn't have done that against Obito, but Konan can. 




> However under neutral conditions Kisame is a Ninja who would struggle with P1-Kakashi and did struggle with Roshi; and his fellow 7Mist Swordsmen even ones hyped as greater Geniuses then himself like Mangetsu and Zabuza were never that strong. Which supports the fact that normally he's nowhere near Itachi and J-man in strength.



That's like me saying Jiraiya nearly died to 4 tails Naruto but Kisame would have low-diffed him. Jiraiya would have taken some time to deal with Kakashi and Roshi as well. The only reason Kisame would have had trouble finishing Kakashi quickly was because he was limited to small/medium sized techniques since he was inside Konoha, an enemy territory. For someone who boasts about looking at the special circumstances, you're obviously ignoring some yourself.

By the way, Roshi was a natural counter to Kisame and Samehada since he was fire/magma based. Not to mention he can control his Bijuu. Jiraiya would have had just as much trouble as Kisame did.





> Then as far as Itachi vs Jiraiya goes, Jiraiya does have counters to Itachi's Jutsu in SM. And if Kishimoto had Jiriaya achieve SM against the stronger then Itachi, Pain, then there is little reason to believe he'd fail to do so against Itachi.



No, Jiraiya achieved SM against a single path of Pain out of the six available. Itachi and Kisame individually are far superior to Animal realm. Not to mention Jiraiya's toad was very injured as a result. Both Itachi and Kisame are far more dangerous and versatile.

It's like me saying Kishi made Itachi use Tosuka to stab Nagato, a far superior shinobi than Jiraiya, therefore, Itachi can stab Jiraiya low-diff.

Flawed logic.




> So realistically how the battle would go, is Jiraiya would use some Jutsu and Kisame would be helpless, forcing Itachi to save him, and then Itachi would tell Kisame to GTFO like Pain did with Konan. Then Jiriaya would realize Itachi's power from him countering his Jutsu and fall back for SM, which he'd achieve considering he achieved it against Pain. Then we'd have a good fight between SM-J-man and Itachi.



Already debunked that logic.



> Which honestly is basically what happened in the hall way. Jiraiya used Toad Stomach, Kisame was useless as fuck, Itachi had to save them w/ Amaterasu, which made Jiriaya realize just how dangerous he was. If the battle continued J-man likely would have fallen back for SM, and Itachi would have likely told Kisame to GTFO so he didn't have to save his ass again.



Flawed logic.

Kisame was shown to be in far worse situation against far superior techniques. He wouldn't have gone down against the Toad stomach. Worst comes to worse, he could have carried on the battle inside the stomach, wrecking havoc just like the Kin/Gin brothers did inside the Kyuubi's stomach.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> 1. Can it expand to the size of a mountain? Do you have ANY idea on how much water Kisame can produce?
> 
> I might as well say Itachi can use Tsukuyomi and make it last 1000 years since Itachi can control the time and space within it.
> 
> ...



It can expand as much as jiriaya wants it to 
It all is dependent on jiriaya chakra limitation 
Considering his reserves that's a shit load . Doubtful a base kisame can barf so much water the stomach can't expand enough 

You could say that however we know itachi limitation so daft example . The guy is half dead using it for 72 hours . Could he do more sure 
Would his stamina and illness allow it . Most likely not 

Why not go further with the troll and say itachi can use susanoo indefinitely ??

I guess animal path is a stationary target . Cheers I didn't know that 

Scans of kisame using it without bijuu chakra ? Any? 
I didn't think so. Statement he can without ?
Any ? I didn't think so 

Genius explain the statement since you understand it so much
All hail the second coming of kishi


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Konan was no threat because Jiraiya had the right counters and knew her abilities. If you directly look at her performance against Obito (*someone who everyone agrees to be superior to Jiraiya*), she did a hell of a lot better. In fact, she would have done far better than Jiraiya would, due to her skillset.
> 
> The fact that you're trying to say Kisame is non-factor is ridiculous. It's like me saying Kakashi/Gai were non-factor when assisting Naruto and Bee against Rinnegan Obito and Bijuu's because it's agreed that Naruto/Bee and Obito > both Kakashi and Gai.
> 
> ...



Sorry what worse techniques did kisame deal with than toad stomach 
Just would like that clarifying 

I agree the logic in his argument is flawed though
Naturally


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## Yoko (Dec 24, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> There has been quite a controversy on the NBD about this P1 statement so I'd like to put it to the test.



It's a "controversy" born by selective reading and wilful ignorance of the context of that statement, which is that Itachi was a spy that had Konoha's best interests in mind. Killing Jiraiya is not in Konoha's best interests.

Just a few chapters later, you have the very same Kisame you referenced above asking Itachi: "Why is a retreat necessary for *you*?"  Does this statement just not matter as much, and if so, why? Kisame is clearly expressing his confidence in Itachi's ability to have handled that situation, and he's doing it without being in "hype" mode.

I don't understand why the very same people that religiously cite Kisame's first statement choose to ignore the one I linked above, which IMO bears far more weight considering Kisame was being dead serious and not just casually citing the Sannin's reputation in a relaxed situation with a smile on his face.

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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It can expand as much as jiriaya wants it to
> It all is dependent on jiriaya chakra limitation
> Considering his reserves that's a shit load . Doubtful a base kisame can barf so much water the stomach can't expand enough



Well...this is ironic, since Kisame's reserves is most likely > Jiraiya's. Kisame can probably spill out more water than Jiraiya can expand. 

Kisame has Bijuu level chakra......What does Jiraiya have? 

Using the whole chakra limitation argument against Kisame is dumb. 





> You could say that however we know itachi limitation so daft example . The guy is half dead using it for 72 hours . Could he do more sure
> Would his stamina and illness allow it . Most likely not



Why would illness have an effect on the potency of a jutsu? It's not like Itachi's genjutsu is weaker because he's ill 

Stamina wouldn't have been an issue considering he managed to use several more MS jutsu's afterwards. It's logical that Itachi could have extended the Tsukuyomi length far more than 72 hours if he wanted to, but Kakashi would have died or went full retard otherwise.





> Why not go further with the troll and say itachi can use susanoo indefinitely ??



Lol wtf. 



> I guess animal path is a stationary target . Cheers I didn't know that



The best feats of that toad stomach was getting someone who willingly charged into it. 



> Scans of kisame using it without bijuu chakra ? Any?
> I didn't think so. Statement he can without ?
> Any ? I didn't think so



The only jutsu that needs bijuu chakra to use are Bijuudama's and cancelling Infinite Tsukuyomi. 

You think Daikokan is of the same caliber? 

Jeez, people are getting extremely desperate to say that Kisame wouldn't have the chakra to use Daikokan without absorbing some chakra from someone else. It's like people intentionally forget that Kisame has bijuu level chakra already. 



> Genius explain the statement since you understand it so much
> All hail the second coming of kishi



Why should I? It's not like you're going to listen in the first place.


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## Infernal Imp (Dec 24, 2016)

Turrin said:


> However under neutral conditions Kisame is a Ninja who would struggle with P1-Kakashi and did struggle with Roshi





Kisame would trounce P1 Kakashi with just as little effort as Itachi did, and he didn't even have a scratch on him after capturing Roshi in the anime.


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## Dr. White (Dec 24, 2016)

C'mon PS I expected better than this

OT: Jiraiya isn't going down like a bitch, but he isn't winning by any means here. Jiraiya legit went to one of his most hax moves against them, one that had Kisame swetting bullets. Itachi calmly figured a counter and they trounced out. Pt. 1 Kakashi never once moaned in pain, or got down on his knees in pain from sickness (Which makes sense given if he just got the sickness he would be much degraded 2 years later when he fought Sauce) or MS use. He just mentioned having used a good portion of chakra using Tsuku twice and Ama, and that using Susanoo would be even more (which makes sense if they woud have stayed and fought Konoha). Atleast that's what I get from the terrible pt. 1 translations (regarding susanoo). Jiraiya is not surviving a direct conflcit between the two versus style. He has the tools but Itachi alone is efficient enough to kill him especially if he starts in base as he did in canon, adding Kisame is just overkill.


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## Icegaze (Dec 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well...this is ironic, since Kisame's reserves is most likely > Jiraiya's. Kisame can probably spill out more water than Jiraiya can expand.
> 
> Kisame has Bijuu level chakra......What does Jiraiya have?
> 
> ...



Daikodan Is featless it's only hype is it grows stronger by stealing power from a technique fired at it . Kisame moto

He fires daikodan . Jman summons bunta who tanked shukaku wind blasts 

So sadly daikodan would have achieved nothing there 

Barfs a lake , jiriaya summons bunta 
Are you then going to daftly claim kisame can drown bunta ?

Despite the fact that we saw bunta kid jump over a hoard of juubi clones several 100 m away ?

Yh good luck with that 

 featless daikodan with no hype at all being the end of jiriaya


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 25, 2016)

@Sapherosth 

Dude ı dont gonna debate with you but ı have to tell you.. You're try to correct Turrin's logic and try to teach something to ıcegaze but your logic and arguments on very plain logical in a childish way... Please try to be more creative and respectfull  I saw your far better debates before  




Infernal Imp said:


> Kisame would trounce P1 Kakashi with just as little effort as Itachi did, and he didn't even have a scratch on him after capturing Roshi in the anime.


He can regen with samehada with bijuu chakra from his wounds.. Like he did against Bee SO we cant know what he have from Roshi..

If Scracth means  -> difficultness of the opponent... 

Then Kisame 's most mortal enemy must be Asuma

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Daikodan Is featless it's only hype is it grows stronger by stealing power from a technique fired at it . Kisame moto
> 
> He fires daikodan . Jman summons bunta who tanked shukaku wind blasts
> 
> ...




So you genuinely believe that Jiraiya would summon his precious toad to be a meat shield instead of trying to counter it with some ninjutsu.....Right.....

The whole point of Daikodan being dangerous is the fact that the opponent doesn't know its absorption properties. 

I never once stated that Kisame can drown Jiraiya's toads. Typical Icegaze style of debating, putting words in people's mouths.


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## Icegaze (Dec 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> So you genuinely believe that Jiraiya would summon his precious toad to be a meat shield instead of trying to counter it with some ninjutsu.....Right.....
> 
> The whole point of Daikodan being dangerous is the fact that the opponent doesn't know its absorption properties.
> 
> I never once stated that Kisame can drown Jiraiya's toads. Typical Icegaze style of debating, putting words in people's mouths.



Yup I don't see why he wouldn't 
He was happy to watch his toad get beat up so he could get into SM

Why didn't he just escape and come back in SM vs having gamahiro get beat up ?



No you only somehow made it sound like barfing a lake poses a problem 
Typical rubbish posting


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## Sapherosth (Dec 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yup I don't see why he wouldn't
> He was happy to watch his toad get beat up so he could get into SM
> 
> Why didn't he just escape and come back in SM vs having gamahiro get beat up ?
> ...




Did you not read the part where Jiraiya told his toads to leave him as soon as things get dangerous?

And also, Jiraiya WAS trying to escape while entering SM, but he was being chased by the summons. 

I only brought up the lake as a counter because you keep trying to say as if the toad stomach can low-diff Kisame when there's no way it can. 

I can already see you trying to change the subject


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## Turrin (Dec 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Konan was no threat because Jiraiya had the right counters and knew her abilities


Jiraiya has the right counters to Kisame. He is clearly highly skilled with Doton Ninjutsu to counter Kisame's Suitons, has many techniques which can't be absorbed, and can prevent chakra absorption entirely through drawing in natural energy. Jiraiya also has a high likely hood of knowing about Kisame's abilities due to fame of the 7M Swordsmen and how long Jiriaya has been in circulation.




> If you directly look at her performance against Obito (*someone who everyone agrees to be superior to Jiraiya*), she did a hell of a lot better. In fact, she would have done far better than Jiraiya would, due to her skillset.


She had a shit ton of prep and locational advantage. Those aren't neutral conditions. Kisame could also do a hell off a-lot better with heavily advantageous circumstances. But that's not what we're talking about here.



> The fact that you're trying to say Kisame is non-factor is ridiculous. It's like me saying Kakashi/Gai were non-factor when assisting Naruto and Bee against Rinnegan Obito and Bijuu's because it's agreed that Naruto/Bee and Obito > both Kakashi and Gai.


No it's not. Because Kakashi + Gai's combined power is much closer if not on par (and can exceed it w/ 8th-Gate) to Naruto and B, also in Kakashi's case he had a power (Kamui) which was specifically advantageous to defeating the enemy.

Also it's not a matter of Kisame being unable to do anything to cause Jiraiya trouble, it's that his net impact would be zero or negative. Because for any help Kisame would give Itachi, he'd also cause an equal if not greater amount of problems for Itachi, because Itachi would have to save his ass all the time. It's the same thing with Konan, Pain freed her from Jiraiya's Oil, so at that point she could have stuck around and caused Jiraiya some trouble with her Jutsu, but Pain told her to GFTO, because ultimately her net contribution wouldn't matter or have been negative, as he'd have to worry about her safety the entire time.



> You also forgot that Kisame spent weeks inside Samehada without food or water and was severely weakened prior to that.
> Kisame was simply playing it smart and used whatever means necessary when he was outnumbered.


The only thing stated to have weakened him was when Samehada stole his chakra, but he promptly stole all of his chakra back and then got most of B's & Aoba's on top of his own. Then he also had an extreme topographic advantage on top of it. The fact that Kisame was heavily advantaged is not debatable.



> Jiraiya couldn't have done the same in that situation.


Of course he couldn't have done the same because his fighting style is entirely different than Kisame's and he's advantaged by different things than Kisame is. 



> Konan managed to injure Obito far more than Minato did BEFORE the river of explosives. Does this mean that she's superior to Minato? Not to mention Jiraiya couldn't have done that against Obito, but Konan can.


Konan managed to injure Obito due again to advantageous circumstances. Obito needed Konan alive so he was forced to absorb Konan's suicide explosion instead of simply slipping through it. 

And yes I'm completely confident that Minato and Jiriaya, with prior knowledge of Obito's abilities, prep-time to come up with a strategy to counter, the willingness to suicide themselves, and Obito fighting to capture them instead of kill them, would perform better than Konan did.




> That's like me saying Jiraiya nearly died to 4 tails Naruto but Kisame would have low-diffed him. Jiraiya would have taken some time to deal with Kakashi and Roshi as well.


I don't agree that Jiriaya or Itachi would have a-lot of difficult dealing with P1-Kakashi or Roshi.

And no it's not like that Kisame has an innate advantage over the KN, that Jiriaya and Itachi don't.



> The only reason Kisame would have had trouble finishing Kakashi quickly was because he was limited to small/medium sized techniques since he was inside Konoha, an enemy territory. For someone who boasts about looking at the special circumstances, you're obviously ignoring some yourself.


Itachi never qualified his statement as Kisame having difficulty with P1-Kakashi because he had to limit his Jutsu. Your just assuming that Itachi was factoring that in, something I don't agree with, because Kisame later with no such limitations also struggle with Roshi, who is probably at best around PI-Kakashi's level.



> By the way, Roshi was a natural counter to Kisame and Samehada since he was fire/magma based. Not to mention he can control his Bijuu. Jiraiya would have had just as much trouble as Kisame did.


Roshi can't control his Bijuu that's made up. Sameahda has an aversion to heat, but it still absorbed Itachi's Katon technique. Now you can say Itachi basic Katon simply wasn't hot enough and Samehada can't absorb hotter techniques, which Roshi was able to produce. However if that's the case then that opens up another can of worms in terms of what can Samehada actually absorb. And if there are a-lot of things it can't absorb and Kisame struggles with an enemy of Roshi's level, when he can't absorb Roshi's Techniques, then how is he going to fare against Shinobi that are FAR FAR above Roshi in capabilities and also wield techniques he can't absorb? How much is he really going to be able to do against an opponent like that?



> No, Jiraiya achieved SM against a single path of Pain out of the six available. Itachi and Kisame individually are far superior to Animal realm. Not to mention Jiraiya's toad was very injured as a result. Both Itachi and Kisame are far more dangerous and versatile.


No Jiraiya achieved SM against Pain. Pain made a strategic choice to start the battle only using Animal Realm. Just like most Shinobi in the manga make the same strategic choice to start a battle using weaker techniques holding back on using their full power. The same applies to Itachi and Kisame as well. Itachi makes a choice to start battles with Taijutsu, ShurikenJutsu, Katons, or at best 3T-Genjutsu, instead of Stage 4 Susano'o, for example.

Animal Realm's Summon Spam is more dangerous and difficult to achieve SM against then what most Shinobi start matches with, including Itachi. Which fits as Pain is stronger than Itachi, so his start of the match shit will be typically > Itachi's start of the match shit.



> It's like me saying Kishi made Itachi use Tosuka to stab Nagato, a far superior shinobi than Jiraiya, therefore, Itachi can stab Jiraiya low-diff.


I have full confidence that Itachi with the back up of B and KCM-Naruto could stab Jiraiya w/ Totsuka. Like he did against Nagato.



> Kisame was shown to be in far worse situation against far superior techniques. He wouldn't have gone down against the Toad stomach. Worst comes to worse, he could have carried on the battle inside the stomach, wrecking havoc just like the Kin/Gin brothers did inside the Kyuubi's stomach.


Yes that's why he was shitting himself and Itachi had to save him

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## Sapherosth (Dec 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya has the right counters to Kisame. He is clearly highly skilled with Doton Ninjutsu to counter Kisame's Suitons, has many techniques which can't be absorbed, and can prevent chakra absorption entirely through drawing in natural energy. Jiraiya also has a high likely hood of knowing about Kisame's abilities due to fame of the 7M Swordsmen and how long Jiriaya has been in circulation.



"Highly skilled with doton ninjutsu", which ones exactly?

What techniques that can't be absorbed? Rasengan? 

Natural energy doesn't prevent Kisame's chakra absorption. His SM enhanced jutsu's doesn't even turn people into stone. The only way Samehada/Kisame can be disadvantaged against Natural energy is if they absorb it directly like Preta did against Naruto.





> She had a shit ton of prep and locational advantage. Those aren't neutral conditions. Kisame could also do a hell off a-lot better with heavily advantageous circumstances. But that's not what we're talking about here.



What location advantage. On water? Might as well say Minato had location advantage as well since it's in Konoha. 

She knew that Obito has to solidify before absorbing, just like Minato did. 





> Also it's not a matter of Kisame being unable to do anything to cause Jiraiya trouble, it's that his net impact would be zero or negative. Because for any help Kisame would give Itachi, he'd also cause an equal if not greater amount of problems for Itachi, because Itachi would have to save his ass all the time. It's the same thing with Konan, Pain freed her from Jiraiya's Oil, so at that point she could have stuck around and caused Jiraiya some trouble with her Jutsu, but Pain told her to GFTO, because ultimately her net contribution wouldn't matter or have been negative, as he'd have to worry about her safety the entire time.



Lol, why would it cause Itachi problems? He's well versed in suiton techniques as well. Not to mention the fact that ally jutsu has never once caused problems for their teammates. The only remotely close scenario was when Bee didn't go full bijuu mode when fodder was close to him. Itachi isn't fodder enough to be hindered by Kisame.




> The only thing stated to have weakened him was when Samehada stole his chakra, but he promptly stole all of his chakra back and then got most of B's & Aoba's on top of his own. Then he also had an extreme topographic advantage on top of it. The fact that Kisame was heavily advantaged is not debatable.



"On top of his own" ? Did you see the state of him? Most likely the absorbed chakra's replenished his missing chakra, instead of enhancing it above its normal state.

Kisame's geographical advantage was diminished the moment he doesn't have Samehada which was stated to be 50% of his power and Gai's taijutsu orientated style which counters him hard. Gai's advantage far outweighs Kisame's. 




> Konan managed to injure Obito due again to advantageous circumstances. Obito needed Konan alive so he was forced to absorb Konan's suicide explosion instead of simply slipping through it.



He didn't need Minato alive but he tried to absorb him anyways. It's pretty much confirmed that Obito's method of defeating his opponent relies on absorbing them into boxland. Nothing out of character in that moment.



> And yes I'm completely confident that Minato and Jiriaya, with prior knowledge of Obito's abilities, prep-time to come up with a strategy to counter, the willingness to suicide themselves, and Obito fighting to capture them instead of kill them, would perform better than Konan did.



Minato probably can. Jiraiya? Not a chance. 





> I don't agree that Jiriaya or Itachi would have a-lot of difficult dealing with P1-Kakashi or Roshi.
> 
> And no it's not like that Kisame has an innate advantage over the KN, that Jiriaya and Itachi don't.



Itachi has MS so that's a given. Kisame has Samehada and chakra absorption abilities. Wtf does Jiraiya have that is comparable, apart from getting himself nearly killed?



> Itachi never qualified his statement as Kisame having difficulty with P1-Kakashi because he had to limit his Jutsu. Your just assuming that Itachi was factoring that in, something I don't agree with, because Kisame later with no such limitations also struggle with Roshi, who is probably at best around PI-Kakashi's level.



It's common sense that Kisame was limited to small scale jutsu because they were fighting inside Konoha. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. I'd love to see Kisame use waterdome or spit of rivers of water inside Konoha. 

Roshi is above PI Kakashi's level. Not even close....



> Roshi can't control his Bijuu that's made up. Sameahda has an aversion to heat, but it still absorbed Itachi's Katon technique. Now you can say Itachi basic Katon simply wasn't hot enough and Samehada can't absorb hotter techniques, which Roshi was able to produce. However if that's the case then that opens up another can of worms in terms of what can Samehada actually absorb. And if there are a-lot of things it can't absorb and Kisame struggles with an enemy of Roshi's level, when he can't absorb Roshi's Techniques, then how is he going to fare against Shinobi that are FAR FAR above Roshi in capabilities and also wield techniques he can't absorb? How much is he really going to be able to do against an opponent like that?



Kisame might've finished Roshi using other techs apart from Samehada. That would've justified the difficulty Kisame had. 

Roshi's level is higher than you think. 




> No Jiraiya achieved SM against Pain. Pain made a strategic choice to start the battle only using Animal Realm. Just like most Shinobi in the manga make the same strategic choice to start a battle using weaker techniques holding back on using their full power. The same applies to Itachi and Kisame as well. Itachi makes a choice to start battles with Taijutsu, ShurikenJutsu, Katons, or at best 3T-Genjutsu, instead of Stage 4 Susano'o, for example.



Not true. 

Itachi's 3T genjutsu/start of skirmish is far more dangerous than just some summons from Animal realm. It took out opponents who could give Jiraiya a difficult battle within a few seconds. 



> Animal Realm's Summon Spam is more dangerous and difficult to achieve SM against then what most Shinobi start matches with, including Itachi. Which fits as Pain is stronger than Itachi, so his start of the match shit will be typically > Itachi's start of the match shit.



Summon spams couldn't have taken out Deidara/Oro/Wind Arc Naruto as quickly as Itachi did, so your point about Animal realm being more dangerous than Itachi's starting moves is ridiculous. The fact that Itachi nearly took out Bee with their first skirmish with genjutsu alone makes him far more dangerous than summons. 





> Yes that's why he was shitting himself and Itachi had to save him



And then the next page Jiraiya was shitting himself at the thought of what they did. 

And then the page after, Kisame was asking why they're retreating, indicating he hasn't had enough of Jiraiya at all.


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## Turrin (Dec 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> "Highly skilled with doton ninjutsu", which ones exactly?






> What techniques that can't be absorbed? Rasengan?


Jiraiya has many attacks that are physical in nature like Toad-Stomach, Food Cart Destroyer, and his hair based techniques. Additionally if Samehada can't absorb Techniques with a significant amount of heat, his Oil+Katon combinations will prove difficult for Kisame as well. In SM Jiraiya has even more techniques like this too via Fusaku and Shima's Illusions, Tongue Techniques, SM-Taijtusu including Frog-Katas, and so on.



> Natural energy doesn't prevent Kisame's chakra absorption. His SM enhanced jutsu's doesn't even turn people into stone. The only way Samehada/Kisame can be disadvantaged against Natural energy is if they absorb it directly like Preta did against Naruto.


No it simply comes down to quantity of Sage Chakra absorbed. If Kisame absorbs enough whether from Jutsu or Jiraiya directly he &/or Samehada will be turned to stone.



> What location advantage. On water? Might as well say Minato had location advantage as well since it's in Konoha.


Oh Yah know the location she stocked 100 Billion Explosive Tags in prior to the match. Just that Location advantage 



> Lol, why would it cause Itachi problems? He's well versed in suiton techniques as well. Not to mention the fact that ally jutsu has never once caused problems for their teammates. The only remotely close scenario was when Bee didn't go full bijuu mode when fodder was close to him. Itachi isn't fodder enough to be hindered by Kisame.


I said Itachi would be hindered by having to save Kisame's ass, not by Kisame's Jutsu



> "On top of his own" ? Did you see the state of him? Most likely the absorbed chakra's replenished his missing chakra, instead of enhancing it above its normal state.


Again Samehada stole Kisame's chakra. So basically your saying when Kisame came back into contact with Samehada, he decided inexplicably to not take back his own chakra, and only take B's?



> Kisame's geographical advantage was diminished the moment he doesn't have Samehada which was stated to be 50% of his power and Gai's taijutsu orientated style which counters him hard. Gai's advantage far outweighs Kisame's.


The Ocean is a geographical advantage because it acts as a massive water source for his Suitons. Even Kisame himself stated he had the Topographic advantage:
 spawning next to him



> He didn't need Minato alive but he tried to absorb him anyways. It's pretty much confirmed that Obito's method of defeating his opponent relies on absorbing them into boxland. Nothing out of character in that moment.


Minato outright beat down Obito and had him flee. Konan lost. Konan did more damage, but she had Prior Knowledge of Obito's skills and Prep to come up with strategies to counter them, as well as was willing to die to kill Obito, while Minato was not willing to die as he still had to deal with Kyuubi.



> Minato probably can. Jiraiya? Not a chance.


I don't agree.



> Itachi has MS so that's a given. Kisame has Samehada and chakra absorption abilities. Wtf does Jiraiya have that is comparable, apart from getting himself nearly killed?


Comparing KN4 to Roshi is a fallacy. KN4 displayed strength far beyond what Roshi did.

And Jiraiya has any number of Jutsu that could beat the piss out of Roshi, and he'd outright pwn the fuck out of him in SM.



> It's common sense that Kisame was limited to small scale jutsu because they were fighting inside Konoha. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. I'd love to see Kisame use waterdome or spit of rivers of water inside Konoha.


Cool, I just don't think this has any baring on a general statement Itachi made about Kisame's strength in comparison to Kakashi's.



> Roshi is above PI Kakashi's level. Not even close....


And this is based on what exactly? Because even with the upgrades of Sharingan and Rinnegan against Naruto and B, he was less impressive than PI-Kakashi imo.




> Kisame might've finished Roshi using other techs apart from Samehada. That would've justified the difficulty Kisame had.


K, it still shows that Kisame struggled with an enemy that is FAR FAR weaker than Itachi and Jiriaya, simply because he could use Jutsu that were difficult for him to absorb. So I still do not think that bodes well for his performance against enemy's that are FAR FAR stronger than Roshi and also have Jutsu that are difficult for him to absorb.



> Itachi's 3T genjutsu/start of skirmish is far more dangerous than just some summons from Animal realm. It took out opponents who could give Jiraiya a difficult battle within a few seconds.


I disagree, I think Summon Spam is Way more dangerous.

And no it didn't. The only enemy Itachi's basic 3T Genjutsu took out was Pre-Manga Deidara who only showed basic C1 usage. 



> ummon spams couldn't have taken out Deidara/Oro/Wind Arc Naruto as quickly as Itachi did, so your point about Animal realm being more dangerous than Itachi's starting moves is ridiculous. The fact that Itachi nearly took out Bee with their first skirmish with genjutsu alone makes him far more dangerous than summons.


I would like to see proof that Pre-Manga Deidara wouldn't be raped by summon spam, when he only showed the most basic C1 usage.

3T Genjtusu didn't take out Orochimaru, Orochimaru loosing a hand isn't taking him out.

Itachi used Shisui Crow's Genjutsu (not Koto, but 3T) against Naruto, who was currently split 1/1,000 due to TKB, i'd hardly call that normal circumstances.



> And then the next page Jiraiya was shitting himself at the thought of what they did.


There was no they LOL. Kisame didn't do shit. 



> And then the page after, Kisame was asking why they're retreating, indicating he hasn't had enough of Jiraiya at all.


LOL he was talking about why did they need to retreat when they had Itachi's power, not his own. He was extremely clear in that arc that he was useless against someone of Jiraiya's level

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## Icegaze (Dec 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Did you not read the part where Jiraiya told his toads to leave him as soon as things get dangerous?
> 
> And also, Jiraiya WAS trying to escape while entering SM, but he was being chased by the summons.
> 
> ...



Please quote the bit where I said kisame is low diff by toad stomach 

Pot calls kettle black 

You are weak

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## Sapherosth (Dec 25, 2016)

So just 1 technique...Lmfao. And you're trying to make Jiraiya out to be some high level doton user. 



> Jiraiya has many attacks that are physical in nature like Toad-Stomach, Food Cart Destroyer, and his hair based techniques. Additionally if Samehada can't absorb Techniques with a significant amount of heat, his Oil+Katon combinations will prove difficult for Kisame as well. In SM Jiraiya has even more techniques like this too via Fusaku and Shima's Illusions, Tongue Techniques, SM-Taijtusu including Frog-Katas, and so on.



All of which can be countered by Kisame. Show me someone turning into stone via absorbing sage techniques? Preta path absorbed a hell of a lot without turning into frogs at all, but turned into a frog when absorbing directly from Naruto. There's a huge difference between absorbing the technique and absorbing directly. 




> No it simply comes down to quantity of Sage Chakra absorbed. If Kisame absorbs enough whether from Jutsu or Jiraiya directly he &/or Samehada will be turned to stone.



Obviously it comes down to quantity. Common sense.




> Oh Yah know the location she stocked 100 Billion Explosive Tags in prior to the match. Just that Location advantage



Lmao, did you just ignore the fact that Konan dealt damage to Obito BEFORE she used the explosive tag river?  At that point, location advantage wasn't a factor. 

Can't believe I had to explain such simple logic.




> I said Itachi would be hindered by having to save Kisame's ass, not by Kisame's Jutsu



You haven't listed anything that Kisame couldn't have handled so far. Kisame alone could give Jiraiya a good fight. To suggest otherwise is just wanking. 




> Again Samehada stole Kisame's chakra. So basically your saying when Kisame came back into contact with Samehada, he decided inexplicably to not take back his own chakra, and only take B's?



Are you saying Samehada is a chakra storage bag that can store chakra for several weeks that Kisame can just take back whenever he want? 




> The Ocean is a geographical advantage because it acts as a massive water source for his Suitons. Even Kisame himself stated he had the Topographic advantage:
> spawning next to him



And Gai ALSO had his own advantage. What's your point? 

Kisame was more disadvantaged in that fight. 




> Minato outright beat down Obito and had him flee. Konan lost. Konan did more damage, but she had Prior Knowledge of Obito's skills and Prep to come up with strategies to counter them, as well as was willing to die to kill Obito, while Minato was not willing to die as he still had to deal with Kyuubi.



The Obito that Minato fought was a kid......Konan undoubtedly fought a superior version to that, since he's older, more experienced and skill.




> K, it still shows that Kisame struggled with an enemy that is FAR FAR weaker than Itachi and Jiriaya, simply because he could use Jutsu that were difficult for him to absorb. So I still do not think that bodes well for his performance against enemy's that are FAR FAR stronger than Roshi and also have Jutsu that are difficult for him to absorb.



False logic.




> I disagree, I think Summon Spam is Way more dangerous.
> 
> And no it didn't. The only enemy Itachi's basic 3T Genjutsu took out was Pre-Manga Deidara who only showed basic C1 usage.



Deidara only managed to show C1 because he got finished off before he got to do anything. That's the whole point of having a strong starting technique. What part of that don't you get? 




> I would like to see proof that Pre-Manga Deidara wouldn't be raped by summon spam, when he only showed the most basic C1 usage.



At that time Deidara had the recognition of Onoki and the Stone village. Deidara would've easily demolished the entire area and stay out of Ceberus's range. 



> 3T Genjtusu didn't take out Orochimaru, Orochimaru loosing a hand isn't taking him out.



Losing a hand and admitting defeat is pretty self explanatory that you were defeated.....If Jiraiya lost a hand like Oro did, he wouldn't have been able to enter SM.



> Itachi used Shisui Crow's Genjutsu (not Koto, but 3T) against Naruto, who was currently split 1/1,000 due to TKB, i'd hardly call that normal circumstances.



Lmao, Itachi already wrecked a 100% Naruto with a finger genjutsu. Itachi also used a clone as well, not just Naruto.



> There was no they LOL. Kisame didn't do shit.



You're trying to tell me Jiraiya could have taken on Kisame AND Itachi, but you're having difficulty arguing that Jiraiya defeats Kisame with relative ease alone. 



> LOL he was talking about why did they need to retreat when they had Itachi's power, not his own. He was extremely clear in that arc that he was useless against someone of Jiraiya's level



I guess Killer Bee wasn't in Jiraiya's level.

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## Sapherosth (Dec 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Please quote the bit where I said kisame is low diff by toad stomach
> 
> Pot calls kettle black
> 
> You are weak




You blatantly said that Kisame has no counter to Jiraiya's toad stomach. That's calling it low-diff. 

I tried to defend Kisame by saying it wouldn't have been the end, but you tried to hype the frog stomach as if it was the end for Kisame.

Tell me, which part did I miss out exactly?

Me? Weak? Bitch please....I destroyed you so hard. Anyone with half a brain can easily see that. But hey, if calling me weak makes your argument any stronger then go ahead.


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## Turrin (Dec 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> So just 1 technique...Lmfao. And you're trying to make Jiraiya out to be some high level doton user.


Just to be clear, your saying acquisition difficulty of the technique and it's overall level is irrelevant, all that matters is number of techniques the Shinobi possess? So EOS-Naruto is not a high level Fuuton user because his only complete Fuuton Technique is Rasenshuriken?



> All of which can be countered by Kisame.


And I don't agree with this sentiment. It's that simple.

For Example, when canonically Kisame was pitted against Toad Stomach he was portrayed as helpless with Itachi being the one who stepped up and saved them. I therefore do not find it likely he can counter Toad Stomach on his own, and by extension I don't find it likely he could counter other similar Techniques like Toad Shop & Toad Gourd. 



> Show me someone turning into stone via absorbing sage techniques? Preta path absorbed a hell of a lot without turning into frogs at all, but turned into a frog when absorbing directly from Naruto. There's a huge difference between absorbing the technique and absorbing directly.


Of course there's a difference, i'm just saying if Kisame absorbs enough Jutsu he will also turn to stone. I agree that this will happen much quicker if he absorbs it directly from Jiraiya, rather than Jutsu tho.



> Lmao, did you just ignore the fact that Konan dealt damage to Obito BEFORE she used the explosive tag river? At that point, location advantage wasn't a factor.


I thought you were talking about the entire match with this point, as otherwise Konan did not due more damage then Minato to Obito.

Minato's Rasengan took off one of Obito's arms on top of dealing significant damage to his back. Minato then stabbed him with a Kunai in the chest. Sealed him from Summons and had him tagged with a FTG-Mark, forcing him to flee.

All Konan did was blow off one of his arms, which was only possible again due to Obito needing Konan alive so he was forced to absorb Konan's suicide explosion instead of simply slipping through it. If he was aiming to kill like he was with Minato she wouldn't have damaged him at all prior to Paper Ocean.



> You haven't listed anything that Kisame couldn't have handled so far. Kisame alone could give Jiraiya a good fight. To suggest otherwise is just wanking.


This is kind of ridiculous dude. Like try and consider this from my perspective. We literally see Itachi have to expend chakra on Amaterasu to save Kisame from Jiriaya's Jutsu. And Kisame himself literally says he can't take Jiraiya on because he's out of his league. Yet your saying i'm wanking because i'm just repeating what A) Actually Happened in the Manga and B) was actually stated from Kisame's own mouth in the manga. 



> Are you saying Samehada is a chakra storage bag that can store chakra for several weeks that Kisame can just take back whenever he want?


No I'm saying we literally see Samehada absorb Kisame chakra in the moment he separates from Kisame:
 spawning next to him



> And Gai ALSO had his own advantage.


Gai's only advantage is that Kisame couldn't absorb his attacks, but apparently the list of attacks Kisame can't absorb is fairly extensive so i'm not sure how much of an advantage that truly is. And more so seems like most High-Tiers have attacks that can bypass Samehada absorption.



> What's your point?
> 
> Kisame was more disadvantaged in that fight.


My point is that Kisame's "power-level" was much higher in that fight because he was advantaged by circumstance. He had absorbed a shit ton of chakra and he had the topographic advantage of the Ocean, that enabled him to casually throw around Jutsu like 1,000-Feeding Sharks and Giant Diakodan. 



> The Obito that Minato fought was a kid......Konan undoubtedly fought a superior version to that, since he's older, more experienced and skill.


Cool, and Konan would have literally done nothing to Obito, not a dam scratch if not for advantageous circumstances.



> False logic.


Proof that Roshi is not FAR FAR Weaker then Itachi and Jiraiya



> Deidara only managed to show C1 because he got finished off before he got to do anything. That's the whole point of having a strong starting technique. What part of that don't you get?


Okay so where's the proof that he had more than C1 back then? Or even the same level of C1 skills he demonstrated in the present.



> At that time Deidara had the recognition of Onoki and the Stone village.


Cool, and 7Mist Swordsmen also were famous. That doesn't mean Raiga wouldn't get his ass stomped by Cerberous.



> Deidara would've easily demolished the entire area and stay out of Ceberus's range.


Flashback Deidara didn't even show that he could use Flight. He literally only showed one tiny little C1 explosive which would do nothing to any of Pain's summons. But assuming he could fly, Cerberous can jump to huge heights and while Deidara is distracted with avoiding the multiple Ceberous attacks, he will be flanked by the bird summon. All the while he has no way to even find the Chameleon summon. 



> Losing a hand and admitting defeat is pretty self explanatory that you were defeated.....


Pretty self explanatory that a man who laughs off getting cut in half is not defeated by having his hand chopped off. 

Orochimaru admitted defeat because of what Itachi could have done, not because of what he did.



> If Jiraiya lost a hand like Oro did, he wouldn't have been able to enter SM.


Jiraiya would have never lost a hand like Oro did in the first place if he was stalling for SM.



> Lmao, Itachi already wrecked a 100% Naruto with a finger genjutsu. Itachi also used a clone as well, not just Naruto.


He defeated SPII-Naruto with his Finger Genjutsu, SPII-Naruto is not that strong, so I'm not impressed. 

And yeah Itachi used a clone, but he used Shisui's eye to cast the illusion, not the clones, so the clones diminished power doesn't really matter cause it didn't cast the illusion, all it was there for was to trigger the crow. What matters is Itachi did not use his normal 3T-Genjutsu and naruto himself was weakened. 



> You're trying to tell me Jiraiya could have taken on Kisame AND Itachi, but you're having difficulty arguing that Jiraiya defeats Kisame with relative ease alone.


I have no difficulty arguing it, Jiraiya canonically had Kisame defeated with Toad Stomach and Itachi had to save his ass.



> I guess Killer Bee wasn't in Jiraiya's level.


I fail to see what your referring to here. But Kisame outright stated he wasn't in Jiraiya's level so I don't see how this is even up for discussion.

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## Icegaze (Dec 25, 2016)

Minato equivalent of konan prep is An already marked obito 
 Minato easily does better than konan with the knowledge konan had 
She knew kamui time limit and the ins and out of the jutsu 

Minato trolled obito with no such info 

Giving him that info and assuming he has prep he neg diff obito casually 

Oh And btw if Minato intends to kill himself like konan did . Note obito can't see RDS till it grabs him . Minato casually 1 shots unlike konan who needed to be saved 


Giving jiriaya prep however he would still loose but should perform better than konan

Jiriaya with prep would be him starting in SM


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## Sapherosth (Dec 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Just to be clear, your saying acquisition difficulty of the technique and it's overall level is irrelevant, all that matters is number of techniques the Shinobi possess? So EOS-Naruto is not a high level Fuuton user because his only complete Fuuton Technique is Rasenshuriken?



What wind technique does Naruto actually have apart from infusing wind element into his Rasengan? He's not really a proficient Fuuton user. He has just 1 hax technique. That's like me saying Itachi > Madara in Katon skill because Itachi has Amateratsu. 




> And I don't agree with this sentiment. It's that simple.
> 
> For Example, when canonically Kisame was pitted against Toad Stomach he was portrayed as helpless with Itachi being the one who stepped up and saved them. I therefore do not find it likely he can counter Toad Stomach on his own, and by extension I don't find it likely he could counter other similar Techniques like Toad Shop & Toad Gourd.



Well I guess Killer Bee and Naruto would have died to CT if they were alone, even if they had knowledge. Since they didn't counter it by themselves that means they don't have the capability to do it alone, is that what you're saying? 

Just because Itachi was the one to do it first doesn't mean Kisame couldn't have turned around and attacked Jiraiya instead. Itachi was the one who told Kisame to come, so he was simply following Itachi. 




> Of course there's a difference, i'm just saying if Kisame absorbs enough Jutsu he will also turn to stone. I agree that this will happen much quicker if he absorbs it directly from Jiraiya, rather than Jutsu tho.



Kisame absorbing enough jutsu to turn into stone will never happen. The quantity required for that is ridiculous. 




> I thought you were talking about the entire match with this point, as otherwise Konan did not due more damage then Minato to Obito.
> 
> Minato's Rasengan took off one of Obito's arms on top of dealing significant damage to his back. Minato then stabbed him with a Kunai in the chest. Sealed him from Summons and had him tagged with a FTG-Mark, forcing him to flee
> 
> ...



Konan fought a superior version of Obito. 




> This is kind of ridiculous dude. Like try and consider this from my perspective. We literally see Itachi have to expend chakra on Amaterasu to save Kisame from Jiriaya's Jutsu. And Kisame himself literally says he can't take Jiraiya on because he's out of his league. Yet your saying i'm wanking because i'm just repeating what A) Actually Happened in the Manga and B) was actually stated from Kisame's own mouth in the manga.



Kisame was basing it on the Sannin hype, not because he knows about Jiraiya's abilities extensively. He talks about how his hype pales in comparison to the Sannin hype. That's all there is to it. If Kisame had fought Jiraiya or seen him in battle and made that statement, it would've been valid. 

Even if it is true that Jiraya > Kisame, there's no way in hell Jiraiya can low-diff Kisame as if he's some kind of fodder. What you're trying to say is Jiraiya is going to neg diff Kisame and that he's non-factor despite the fact that in Part 2, Obito sends out Kisame out to catch Hachibi after MS Sasuke failed. That alone suggests that Obito views Kisame quite highly. 




> No I'm saying we literally see Samehada absorb Kisame chakra in the moment he separates from Kisame:
> previous panel



I see that panel as Samehada separating from Kisame, not that he's stealing Kisame's chakra. Kisame being that skinny was probably due to having no food to eat inside Samehada for weeks which explains his weakened state, not because of Samehada "stealing" his chakra.




> Gai's only advantage is that Kisame couldn't absorb his attacks, but apparently the list of attacks Kisame can't absorb is fairly extensive so i'm not sure how much of an advantage that truly is. And more so seems like most High-Tiers have attacks that can bypass Samehada absorption.



Kisame absorbs most ninjutsu. Gai uses no ninjutsu. That's a pretty big disadvantage. It's also odd how you don't mention the fact that Kisame without Samehada is basically 50% of his power gone, which was stated in the manga. 




> My point is that Kisame's "power-level" was much higher in that fight because he was advantaged by circumstance. He had absorbed a shit ton of chakra and he had the topographic advantage of the Ocean, that enabled him to casually throw around Jutsu like 1,000-Feeding Sharks and Giant Diakodan.



He absorbed chakra to replenish his missing chakra. The reason why he was able to use those techniques was because Kisame is already a chakra beast, not because he absorbed more. 

I find it hilarious that someone with Bijuu level chakra wouldn't have enough chakra to use those techniques. 


Cool, and Konan would have literally done nothing to Obito, not a dam scratch if not for advantageous circumstances.




> Proof that Roshi is not FAR FAR Weaker then Itachi and Jiraiya



He gave Kisame more trouble than Killer Bee did? 



> Okay so where's the proof that he had more than C1 back then? Or even the same level of C1 skills he demonstrated in the present.



You think the Akatsuki would recruit some no-name fodder with 1 technique or something? 

Deidara was already infamous. Even Onoki acknowledged him.




> Flashback Deidara didn't even show that he could use Flight. He literally only showed one tiny little C1 explosive which would do nothing to any of Pain's summons. But assuming he could fly, Cerberous can jump to huge heights and while Deidara is distracted with avoiding the multiple Ceberous attacks, he will be flanked by the bird summon. All the while he has no way to even find the Chameleon summon.



He only managed to show 1 technique because Itachi finished him before he could show more, just like how Itachi finished Oro before he could show any of his techniques. The only technique that he definitely didn't have was C4. 

If we only base it on flashbacks, I guess back then Orochimaru only has Kai as his jutsu since it was the only thing he showed? 



> Pretty self explanatory that a man who laughs off getting cut in half is not defeated by having his hand chopped off.



He didn't laugh when he got his hand chopped off though. He looked outright worried and even kept it in a jar as a reminder. There's a huge difference. 



> Orochimaru admitted defeat because of what Itachi could have done, not because of what he did.



If Itachi did the exact same thing to other people and not Orochimaru, tell me, who can fight Itachi without a hand? 




> Jiraiya would have never lost a hand like Oro did in the first place if he was stalling for SM.



Jiraiya already lost the use of his hands as soon as he starts trying to enter SM. Did you forget that Jiraiya has to keep his hands together to summon Ma & Pa? 

It's basically - Jiraiya with no hands and 1 toad vs Itachi and Kisame for several minutes. It's pure wanking to think J-man has a chance. Unless you're trying to say that Pain's Animal realm > Itachi and Kisame.



> He defeated SPII-Naruto with his Finger Genjutsu, SPII-Naruto is not that strong, so I'm not impressed.



He's probably stronger than Jiraiya's toad summons though.



> And yeah Itachi used a clone, but he used Shisui's eye to cast the illusion, not the clones, so the clones diminished power doesn't really matter cause it didn't cast the illusion, all it was there for was to trigger the crow. What matters is Itachi did not use his normal 3T-Genjutsu and naruto himself was weakened.



How did you know Itachi used Shisui's eye to cast the illusion?   Proof? 

Even if what you say is true, that makes Itachi even more dangerous with that crow since he can cast a powerful genjutsu without eye contact. 




> I have no difficulty arguing it, Jiraiya canonically had Kisame defeated with Toad Stomach and Itachi had to save his ass.



Just because Itachi stole the limelight doesn't mean Kisame didn't have the capability of countering it in his own way. 

I already provided the example of CT. Killer Bee had the capability of doing it solo via multiple BD spam, but Naruto & Itachi helped. Doesn't mean CT would work on KB if he was alone since he has the capability. 




> I fail to see what your referring to here. But Kisame outright stated he wasn't in Jiraiya's level so I don't see how this is even up for discussion.



"Even the *TITLES *of Uchiha clan and 7SOTM pales in comparison" The key word here is title....Kisame has no idea of Jiraiya's abilities.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That's like me saying Itachi > Madara in Katon skill because Itachi has Amateratsu.


No thats like you're kinda spin on dirt for pages thru..

Amaterasu aint a katon technique. And you're always somehow bend Turrin's arguments far from his point of view constantly dude.. Sorry for ad hominem but.. Its actually out of control here ...

You have 2 button in your hands; one of them is typed as "exaggerate" and at the other one typed as "Lowballing"... All conversation that you try to run here is just look like this. 

Turrin said:

Jiriaya fair enough doton specialist for able to counter suiton

You said:
Which doton 

He showed it (And it was the biggest land technic that did by a regular ninja) 

You turn up one's nose at it.. then said; "Only one technique" 

And he said; "Naruto only have FRS as a Fuuton user, this is makes him weaker to any fodder katon user" (he try to say similar)

And then you're talkin about proficiency which aint the point that you talked before  

Did he have force to use as a doton user or not ? Yes he has  So whats the point about all mambo jambo talk you try to acheive man ?! 

And This is only a latest/current tiny example of your all argument pattern in this topic.


I'm agree with you ı wouldnt saw Kisame that useless as Turrin did but.. You're utterly lost the center of the debate. 

And again sorry for ad hominem.. But you kinda in some desperate point that even use Amaterasu as a katon reserve ?!  Do you get it what ı mean or What ı try to show you ?


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## Turrin (Dec 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> What wind technique does Naruto actually have apart from infusing wind element into his Rasengan? He's not really a proficient Fuuton user. He has just 1 hax technique. That's like me saying Itachi > Madara in Katon skill because Itachi has Amateratsu.


So even though Fuuton-Rasenshuriken requires the highest level of Fuuton Nature Alteration to complete and is S-Rank or Beyond Acquisition difficulty; Naruto is still not proficient in Fuuton, because he doesn't possess many Fuuton Techniques in your opinion. K, I mean I disagree with you completely, but okay....

Now then prove Doton: Yomi Numa is Jiriaya's only Doton Technique.



> Well I guess Killer Bee and Naruto would have died to CT if they were alone, even if they had knowledge. Since they didn't counter it by themselves that means they don't have the capability to do it alone, is that what you're saying?


Yup



> Just because Itachi was the one to do it first doesn't mean Kisame couldn't have turned around and attacked Jiraiya instead. Itachi was the one who told Kisame to come, so he was simply following Itachi.


It comes down to how the scene is portrayed. Kisame is shown freaking out that the walls are closing in on him while in a cold sweat. He then still in a cold sweat, specifically looks to Itachi and tells him the walls are closing in on them. At no point does Kisame make any move or show any ability to do anything about the Toad Stomach himself, he just looks to Itachi.

Not to mention if Itachi had to use Amaterasu one of his best techniques that permanently damages his eyesight to escape Toad Stomach, while Kisame could counter it without ill-effects, it doesn't fit with how the two were portrayed just a few chapters earlier, with Kisame stating that Jiraiya was out of his league, but Itachi may be able to take him on. It also makes Itachi look moronic and wasteful (which goes against his character), because it would mean he damaged his eyesight permanently for no reason when Kisame could have simply countered the technique without ill-effect.



> Kisame absorbing enough jutsu to turn into stone will never happen. The quantity required for that is ridiculous.


I don't think we know enough to make this claim. I'd assume everyone's threshold for handling natural energy is different. We don't know if Kisame's threshold is high or low. And we don't know if Samehada's threshold is high or low.

Ether way it's much more dangerous for Kisame to employ his normal tactics against a Sage.



> Kisame was basing it on the Sannin hype, not because he knows about Jiraiya's abilities extensively. He talks about how his hype pales in comparison to the Sannin hype. That's all there is to it. If Kisame had fought Jiraiya or seen him in battle and made that statement, it would've been valid.


He wasn't basing it exclusively on the Sannin hype, because he specifically says Itachi's hype pales in comparison to the Sannin too, Yet believes Itachi could take Jiraiya on, while he could not. Showing hype was not the sole factor in his analysis.

This point is also countered by the fact that Kisame does see Jiraiya in battle later that arc and afterwards is still counting on Itachi's power to take on Jiraiya not his own. Evident in him saying w/ Itachi's power not his own, they didn't need to retreat. 



> Even if it is true that Jiraya > Kisame, there's no way in hell Jiraiya can low-diff Kisame as if he's some kind of fodder. What you're trying to say is Jiraiya is going to neg diff Kisame and that he's non-factor despite the fact that in Part 2,.


If Itachi wasn't there, all signs point to Jiraiya likely neg diffing Kisame in the hallway.



> Obito sends out Kisame out to catch Hachibi after MS Sasuke failed. That alone suggests that Obito views Kisame quite highly


I agree Obito does view Kisame quite highly when it comes to capturing targets, but considering Kisame's specific set of skills that makes sense. It's not a holistic reflection of his strength tho.



> I see that panel as Samehada separating from Kisame, not that he's stealing Kisame's chakra. Kisame being that skinny was probably due to having no food to eat inside Samehada for weeks which explains his weakened state, not because of Samehada "stealing" his chakra.


And I disagree, as this is the same exact chakra draining effect we see when Samehada absorb's B's chakra:





> Kisame absorbs most ninjutsu


I don't agree with this statement though, especially if Samehada has trouble absorbing things when they are sufficiently hot. I mean if it can't absorb things due to heat, I doubt it's absorbing Acidic or  Poisonous things. I also doubt it's absorbing something like Jinton. Then there's the fact that we saw HG-Realm could not absorb Gaara's sand, so it seems like absorption techniques don't work on Jutsu which uses a medium that was not created by chakra. Supported by the fact Kisame couldn't simply absorb B's Ink. Samehada also couldn't absorb things that were too fast, like KCM-Naruto hit Samehada too quickly with Shunshin for it to absorb his shroud. And that's just Ninjutsu, then there are Kenjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu techniques all of which Samehada can't absorb.



> He absorbed chakra to replenish his missing chakra. The reason why he was able to use those techniques was because Kisame is already a chakra beast, not because he absorbed more.


Chakra levels aside (which I also disagree with) there is absolutely no reason for the author to bring up the Topographic advantage of the Ocean, right before Kisame used those Techniques if it had not effect on them whatsoever. Also historically Suitons users, Suiton Ninjutsu have always been enhanced in scale with a Water-Source, let alone an ocean, and historically the only other time Kishimoto made a point of mentioning a Topographic advantage was with Gaara's Sand in the Desert, and the Desert greatly enhanced the scale of his Techniques.



> I find it hilarious that someone with Bijuu level chakra wouldn't have enough chakra to use those techniques.


And you know the chakra cost of those techniques, how exactly? Naruto also had Bijuu like chakra levels but could only use 50%-FRS three times. Certain Jutsu just cost a huge amount of chakra. 



> He gave Kisame more trouble than Killer Bee did?


Like you said before Kisame probably had a tough time absorbing Roshi's Jutsu, while Killer-B's V1/V2 forms were ideal for absorption super charging Kisame, not to mention Killer-B had the additional handicap of protecting Sabo and Ponta.



> You think the Akatsuki would recruit some no-name fodder with 1 technique or something?


Deidara only having C1 doesn't make him fodder. It'd probably place him around Hidan's level, someone who also only showed 1 Technique, yet was still recruited into Akatsuki.



> Deidara was already infamous. Even Onoki acknowledged him.


Again characters like 7MS and 12 Guardians have similar levels of fame. The problem is were talking about very powerful High-Tiers, while you only need to be a skilled Jonin to gain a considerable amount of fame in the Naruto World.



> He only managed to show 1 technique because Itachi finished him before he could show more, just like how Itachi finished Oro before he could show any of his techniques. The only technique that he definitely didn't have was C4.


Your just assuming he had X, Y, and Z. I assume differently, I.E. I think he probably had other generic Doton Techniques as well, but in terms of his bread and butter (Kibaku Nendo), I don't think he had anything beyond C1, and I don't think he was even as good at C1 back then as he is in the present, due to lack of exp in comparison to his current exp. 

Unless you can prove he had more, then we'll have to agree to disagree.



> If we only base it on flashbacks, I guess back then Orochimaru only has Kai as his jutsu since it was the only thing he showed?


Difference is we have reason to believe Orochimaru had other Techniques back then due to statements about Orochimaru. As we know he couldn't get the Sannin hype he had w/ Kai alone. We also know he had Fuushi Tensei because he was trying to body swap with Itachi, which means he had already developed his WSM and had it's powers, as well as was already quite advanced in his experimentation. He also was already know for having mastered tons of techniques and Kinjutsu. So with Orochimaru there is plenty to support he had much more then just Kai.

In Deidara's case the only information we have is that he was a famous terrorist and Onoki respected his potential. Deidara could be a famous terrorist even with just C1 mastery alongside general Jonin skills and some other lesser Jutsu. Deidara could have still caught Onoki's eye for his potential simply due to him being able to learn Kibaku Nendo at such a Young age. 

Simply put Deidara doesn't need more than C1, for his story to make sense, Orochimaru needs more then Kai for his story to make sense. Though you are right that we can't be sure if Orochimaru was as strong back then as he was in the present.



> He didn't laugh when he got his hand chopped off though. He looked outright worried and even kept it in a jar as a reminder. There's a huge difference.


Yeah the dude was worried because he saw Itachi's potential, not because he lost a hand that he casually regens. I mean it's ether that or Orochimaru didn't have his regen back then, in which case then Orochimaru was much weaker too.



> If Itachi did the exact same thing to other people and not Orochimaru, tell me, who can fight Itachi without a hand?


Actually plenty of high-tiers can, but I don't think many high-tiers would end up in that situation. Orochimaru was arrogant and didn't try to avoid eye-contact or do anything at all against Itachi's Genjutsu, he just took it head on. I don't think many high-Tiers are making that mistake. Orochimaru can specifically afford to fight arrogantly due to his tenacity and how good he is at taking hits. However others can't so they usually fight more carefully.



> Jiraiya already lost the use of his hands as soon as he starts trying to enter SM. Did you forget that Jiraiya has to keep his hands together to summon Ma & Pa?
> 
> It's basically - Jiraiya with no hands and 1 toad vs Itachi and Kisame for several minutes. It's pure wanking to think J-man has a chance. Unless you're trying to say that Pain's Animal realm > Itachi and Kisame.


Jiraiya went up against the combination of Konan and Pain on their home turf, and still the author had him achieve SM. So I don't see it as wank to believe the author would allow him to achieve SM against the less formidable combination of Itachi and Kiame on neutral turf. 

Heck let's even just look at the actual Canonical scenario. Jiraiya used Toad Stomach, which forced Itachi and Kisame to flee from the Hotel, with Kisame being useless and Itachi saving them. At which point had Itachi and Kisame not fled, Jiraiya would have realized there threat once he saw how Amaterasu burned through Toad Stomach. At which point he would have likely gone for SM. I also think Itachi would have likely told Kisame to GTFO, because Kisame was canonically useless to the same degree as Konan who was also told to GTFO. So then it's Itachi vs Jiraiya, who is able to hide within Toad Stomach'd Hotel to achieve SM. Itachi has two options at this point

1) He goes back into the Hotel to try and hunt down Jiraiya, but considering every time a wall of flesh closes he'd need Mangekyo to bust through I don't see it being easy to reach Jiraiya within the Toad Stomach, and I likely see Jiriaya achieving SM

2) He attacks the Hotel from the outside, such as igniting the entire thing on fire with Amaterasu, but as the hotel burns this gives Jiriaya time to escape backwards hiding his presence with a Jutsu like Gamagakure/Toad Gourd (Both of which even Pain couldn't track).

Ether way I see how Jiraiya can achieve SM.



> He's probably stronger than Jiraiya's toad summons though.


And the relevance of this is what exactly? Were not comparing Jiraiya's Toad Summons to Naruto, were comparing whose opening hand is more difficult for high-tiers to deal with, Animal-Path Summon Spam or Finger-Genjutsu. I say an invisibile Chameleon, Nigh Immortal Ceberous, and Multiple Boss-Sized Summons easily triumphs, Finger Genjutsu that's best feat is only tricking SPII-Naruto.



> How did you know Itachi used Shisui's eye to cast the illusion? Proof?


The manga focuses specifically on the crow's eye when the illusion is cast



> Even if what you say is true, that makes Itachi even more dangerous with that crow since he can cast a powerful genjutsu without eye contact.


I agree, but that isn't itachi's normal opening move, so irrelevant to this discussion.

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## Ryuzaki (Dec 25, 2016)

It's true, at that point judging from authorial intent, he clearly wanted to depict Jiraiya on a different level as opposed to Kisame/Itachi. If this fight were to happen then, most of what we have seen of the Akatsuki would be heavily nerfed, including Itachi.


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## Turrin (Dec 25, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It's true, at that point judging from authorial intent, he clearly wanted to depict Jiraiya on a different level as opposed to Kisame/Itachi. If this fight were to happen then, most of what we have seen of the Akatsuki would be heavily nerfed, including Itachi.


I really don't think his intent changed from PI to PII. If you look at PII, when Jiraiya invades Ame, again we have a weaker Akatsuki member (Konan) helpless against Jiraiya, while the stronger Akatsuki member takes him on. Only difference was Pain was stronger than Itachi, so Pain outright defeated Jiraiya, but Jiraiya was still good enough where Nagato thought Pain could have lost under different circumstances (and were not talking massive advantaged circumstances ether). Like wise we still see Itachi pwning weaker Akatsuki members like Flash-Back Deidara in PII as well. I think Kishimoto was pretty consistent in the depiction of the weaker Akatsuki members being useless against Itachi and Jiraiya class Ninja. The only problem people have is they don't see Kisame as a weaker Akatsuki member, when they should.

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## Ryuzaki (Dec 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I really don't think his intent changed from PI to PII. If you look at PII, when Jiraiya invades Ame, again we have a weaker Akatsuki member (Konan) helpless against Jiraiya, while the stronger Akatsuki member takes him on. Only difference was Pain was stronger than Itachi, so Pain outright defeated Jiraiya, but Jiraiya was still good enough where Nagato thought Pain could have lost under different circumstances (and were not talking massive advantaged circumstances ether). Like wise we still see Itachi pwning weaker Akatsuki members like Flash-Back Deidara in PII as well. I think Kishimoto was pretty consistent in the depiction of the weaker Akatsuki members being useless against Itachi and Jiraiya class Ninja. The only problem people have is they don't see Kisame as a weaker Akatsuki member, when they should.


Yeah, I agree, I don't think it changed much as it translated but I do feel like that there was a serious jump in power scale.  Although, to be fair, I find that Kisame really fluctuates though based on his opponent, however at that point (in Part 1) I don't think Kisamehada or anything of that nature was even an idea, let alone on any of the books. 

There are inconsistencies in Itachi/Kisame's escape of Jiraiya that would otherwise not have made sense given what we know about their characters now. Jiraiya's offense however was exceptionally consistent throughout the manga, Kishimoto did a good job of just keeping him solely attached to toad-based jutsu with mild dabbling in other areas.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> So even though Fuuton-Rasenshuriken requires the highest level of Fuuton Nature Alteration to complete and is S-Rank or Beyond Acquisition difficulty; Naruto is still not proficient in Fuuton, because he doesn't possess many Fuuton Techniques in your opinion. K, I mean I disagree with you completely, but okay....
> 
> *Now then prove Doton: Yomi Numa is Jiriaya's only Doton Technique.*



Because it's the only one he's shown? Because during the battle of his life he never used any other doton techniques? 

There's a difference between having 1 hax technique and being called a "proficient" user. I already gave you an example using YOUR logic. 

Since Itachi has a superior katon technique (Amateratsu) than Madara, that must mean Itachi > Madara in Katon proficiency despite Madara using ridiculously large scale Katons and wider variety. 




> It comes down to how the scene is portrayed. Kisame is shown freaking out that the walls are closing in on him while in a cold sweat. He then still in a cold sweat, specifically looks to Itachi and tells him the walls are closing in on them. At no point does Kisame make any move or show any ability to do anything about the Toad Stomach himself, he just looks to Itachi.



People are shown freaking out all the time in this manga and they can still counter the techniques they were up against.

Your point about Kisame freaking about = unable to counter/survive is ridiculous. 




> Not to mention if Itachi had to use Amaterasu one of his best techniques that permanently damages his eyesight to escape Toad Stomach, while Kisame could counter it without ill-effects, it doesn't fit with how the two were portrayed just a few chapters earlier, with Kisame stating that Jiraiya was out of his league, but Itachi may be able to take him on. It also makes Itachi look moronic and wasteful (which goes against his character), because it would mean he damaged his eyesight permanently for no reason when Kisame could have simply countered the technique without ill-effect.



That's like me asking you why Itachi wasted Tsukuyomi on Sasuke despite the fact that he was supposed to battle Jiraya afterwards. I guess Itachi really was moronic. 






> I don't think we know enough to make this claim. I'd assume everyone's threshold for handling natural energy is different. We don't know if Kisame's threshold is high or low. And we don't know if Samehada's threshold is high or low.



I'd assume Kisame's threshold is higher than a dead body considering his huge amounts of chakra and durability+Samehada.





> He wasn't basing it exclusively on the Sannin hype, because he specifically says Itachi's hype pales in comparison to the Sannin too, Yet believes Itachi could take Jiraiya on, while he could not. Showing hype was not the sole factor in his analysis.



What other factor could Kisame have taken into consideration outside of hype?    Jiraiya's feats? 



> This point is also countered by the fact that Kisame does see Jiraiya in battle later that arc and afterwards is still counting on Itachi's power to take on Jiraiya not his own. Evident in him saying w/ Itachi's power not his own, they didn't need to retreat.



Doesn't really matter. That doesn't prove that Jiraiya can low-diff Kisame. 

I am not even arguing that Kisame beats Jiraiya or is equal to him, but I give credit where it's due. Jiraiya has no chance of low-diffing Kisame. 





> If Itachi wasn't there, all signs point to Jiraiya likely neg diffing Kisame in the hallway.



Fanfic.




> I agree Obito does view Kisame quite highly when it comes to capturing targets, but considering Kisame's specific set of skills that makes sense. It's not a holistic reflection of his strength tho.



Obito viewing Kisame highly indicates that Kisame isn't some pushover that people can neg-diff. 




> And I disagree, as this is the same exact chakra draining effect we see when Samehada absorb's B's chakra:



How come when Samehada touches other people their chakra isn't absorbed like that then?  Many people have touched it, yet non got their chakra stolen unless they used a technique or release chakra. 




> I don't agree with this statement though, especially if Samehada has trouble absorbing things when they are sufficiently hot. I mean if it can't absorb things due to heat, I doubt it's absorbing Acidic or  Poisonous things. I also doubt it's absorbing something like Jinton. Then there's the fact that we saw HG-Realm could not absorb Gaara's sand, so it seems like absorption techniques don't work on Jutsu which uses a medium that was not created by chakra. Supported by the fact Kisame couldn't simply absorb B's Ink. Samehada also couldn't absorb things that were too fast, like KCM-Naruto hit Samehada too quickly with Shunshin for it to absorb his shroud. And that's just Ninjutsu, then there are Kenjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu techniques all of which Samehada can't absorb.



Samehada had no trouble absorbing Bijuu chakra which were hot enough to burn through Oro's snakes like fodder. I doubt some fodder level heat could hinder it. It just means Uchiha katons are above average. 

The stuff you've listed are just a few out of many other techniques out there in this manga. Like I've said, it can absorb most things, not everything.




> Chakra levels aside (which I also disagree with) there is absolutely no reason for the author to bring up the Topographic advantage of the Ocean, right before Kisame used those Techniques if it had not effect on them whatsoever. Also historically Suitons users, Suiton Ninjutsu have always been enhanced in scale with a Water-Source, let alone an ocean, and historically the only other time Kishimoto made a point of mentioning a Topographic advantage was with Gaara's Sand in the Desert, and the Desert greatly enhanced the scale of his Techniques.



That geographical advantage doesn't mean anything when Kisame can easily produce just as much water when he was at 30% of his chakra. The key difference between Gaara and Kisame is that Gaara cannot just spit out lakes of sand like Kisame can within a few seconds. Scale was never an issue with Kisame. 




> And you know the chakra cost of those techniques, how exactly? Naruto also had Bijuu like chakra levels but could only use 50%-FRS three times. Certain Jutsu just cost a huge amount of chakra.



Why would it make sense for Kisame to only have access to those techniques after he's absorbed a shit ton of chakra? How did he learn to use it prior to that? 

While it is true that certain jutsu cost huge amounts of chakra, it's ridiculous to say that certain jutsu's can only be used when he's absorbed a shit ton of chakra beforehand. Not everyone is a chakra monster for Kisame to absorb. 




> Deidara only having C1 doesn't make him fodder. It'd probably place him around Hidan's level, someone who also only showed 1 Technique, yet was still recruited into Akatsuki.



Pretty sure Deidara also had access to flight judging by his conversation with Onoki. I refuse to believe Deidara only had C1 at that point in time. 




> Difference is we have reason to believe Orochimaru had other Techniques back then due to statements about Orochimaru. As we know he couldn't get the Sannin hype he had w/ Kai alone. We also know he had Fuushi Tensei because he was trying to body swap with Itachi, which means he had already developed his WSM and had it's powers, as well as was already quite advanced in his experimentation. He also was already know for having mastered tons of techniques and Kinjutsu. So with Orochimaru there is plenty to support he had much more then just Kai.



We also have a reason to believe Deidara had more than just clay centipede. 



> In Deidara's case the only information we have is that he was a famous terrorist and Onoki respected his potential. Deidara could be a famous terrorist even with just C1 mastery alongside general Jonin skills and some other lesser Jutsu. Deidara could have still caught Onoki's eye for his potential simply due to him being able to learn Kibaku Nendo at such a Young age.



You don't become a famous terrorist by having just C1....



> Simply put Deidara doesn't need more than C1, for his story to make sense, Orochimaru needs more then Kai for his story to make sense. Though you are right that we can't be sure if Orochimaru was as strong back then as he was in the present.






> Yeah the dude was worried because he saw Itachi's potential, not because he lost a hand that he casually regens. I mean it's ether that or Orochimaru didn't have his regen back then, in which case then Orochimaru was much weaker too.



Itachi was 13, so even if Oro was weaker then, Itachi was also. 




> Actually plenty of high-tiers can, but I don't think many high-tiers would end up in that situation. Orochimaru was arrogant and didn't try to avoid eye-contact or do anything at all against Itachi's Genjutsu, he just took it head on. I don't think many high-Tiers are making that mistake. Orochimaru can specifically afford to fight arrogantly due to his tenacity and how good he is at taking hits. However others can't so they usually fight more carefully.



Even if Oro was arrogant, Jiraiya wasn't lacking behind in arrogance the moment he looked right into Itachi's direction without any indication of trying to avoid eye contact. Not to mention his boast about killing both Itachi & Kisame, and even Pain himself.  

You are wrong. Plenty of people make the mistake.  

C - Sensor/genjutsu user
Oro - full knowledge on sharingan + experience
Deidara - Prior knowledge + experience
Danzo - Full knowledge
Gaara - "Look at his eyes"
Killer Bee - multiple times.
A

There's a longgggg list of people who've fallen for sharingan genjutsu. What makes Jiraiya any different to all the guys above? Is he above every single one of them? 

I assure you, the list of people I've listed above are better than him in key criteria - Sensing, knowledge, experience, intelligence and power, yet they've all fallen for it. Tell me, why would Jiraiya be the special one that wouldn't fall for it?





> Jiraiya went up against the combination of Konan and Pain on their home turf, and still the author had him achieve SM. So I don't see it as wank to believe the author would allow him to achieve SM against the less formidable combination of Itachi and Kiame on neutral turf.



He went up against them one at a time, not two at the same time. The author had him achieve SM against ONE path out of SIX. I mean, if Kishi truly did want to make Jiraiya as good as you seem to think he is, he would've had Jiraiya enter SM against SIX paths, not ONE. 

The only reason why Kishi didn't make Pain use all six from the get go was because he couldn't possibly create a scenario where Jiraiya wouldn't get rape. 



> Heck let's even just look at the actual Canonical scenario. Jiraiya used Toad Stomach, which forced Itachi and Kisame to flee from the Hotel, with Kisame being useless and Itachi saving them. At which point had Itachi and Kisame not fled, Jiraiya would have realized there threat once he saw how Amaterasu burned through Toad Stomach. At which point he would have likely gone for SM. I also think Itachi would have likely told Kisame to GTFO, because Kisame was canonically useless to the same degree as Konan who was also told to GTFO. So then it's Itachi vs Jiraiya, who is able to hide within Toad Stomach'd Hotel to achieve SM. Itachi has two options at this point



Konan was useless because Jiraiya counters her HARD and has knowledge of her weaknesses beforehand. There's a huge difference between Konan and Kisame. 



> 1) He goes back into the Hotel to try and hunt down Jiraiya, but considering every time a wall of flesh closes he'd need Mangekyo to bust through I don't see it being easy to reach Jiraiya within the Toad Stomach, and I likely see Jiriaya achieving SM



Flush he toad out with some sharks. Not that hard. 



> 2) He attacks the Hotel from the outside, such as igniting the entire thing on fire with Amaterasu, but as the hotel burns this gives Jiriaya time to escape backwards hiding his presence with a Jutsu like Gamagakure/Toad Gourd (Both of which even Pain couldn't track).



If Itachi wanted to, he could've killed Jiraiya the moment he crouched down to use frog stomach. He had zero route of escape, no knowledge and zero defense is fast enough to defend. 




> And the relevance of this is what exactly? Were not comparing Jiraiya's Toad Summons to Naruto, were comparing whose opening hand is more difficult for high-tiers to deal with, Animal-Path Summon Spam or Finger-Genjutsu. I say an invisibile Chameleon, Nigh Immortal Ceberous, and Multiple Boss-Sized Summons easily triumphs, Finger Genjutsu that's best feat is only tricking SPII-Naruto.



It's not ONLY finger genjutsu, it's sharingan genjutsu as well....Which has far better feats than Animal path and its summons. 




> The manga focuses specifically on the crow's eye when the illusion is cast
> 
> 
> I agree, but that isn't itachi's normal opening move, so irrelevant to this discussion.



Itachi's normal opening move is genjutsu. Not sure why it's irrelevant. He's always been using different types of genjutsu as his opening move. Not sure why this is any different. 

If someone is avoiding his eye contact, he'll use a genjutsu that doesn't require eye contact. Not rocket science. 

Anyways, Jiraiya has zero feats that shows he's capable of avoiding Itachi's genjutsu. Partner method is too slow, as shown with Killer Bee. 

Bee's partner method is the fastest method you can possibly have, with a partner inside  your mind breaking you out. There's no way a toad is going to save Jiraiya faster or equally as fast as Hachibi did to save Bee.


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## Icegaze (Dec 26, 2016)

One point if kisame got skinny due to lack of food for weeks while stuck in samehada
How did he suddenly get back to size once he absorbed chakra ?

Isn't it an obvious case of he got skinny because his chakra was stolen

@Sapherosth

Another point to make is you keep going on about Sharks do you mean featless and no hype water sharks or the summoned sharks who were a lot better ?

though despite that I don't see how any version of the little sharks kisame has can deal with flesh walls closing in on them from all sides .

I would tbink a sensing barrier would allow him to pick up itachi movement regardless of being caught in genjutsu meant to mask itachi movement 

But yh he can't avoid genjutsu forever .


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 26, 2016)

sorry I took so long - I've been busy. 





Sapherosth said:


> How is he taking Kisame out with Itachi around? You think Itachi is just going to stand there? Jiraiya has no idea what Tsukuyomi and Amateratsu are.


He sealed Amaterasu into a scroll and watched Itachi use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke - while he does not have knowledge on the Jutsu mechanics or names he has _enough_ knowledge on said jutsu to be ready to counter.





> It changes.....To say it doesn't change what Kishi gave us is ridiculous. What's the point of turning Itachi into a good guy and having Obito say Itachi returned to Konoha to warn Danzo? It changed the whole perspective of Itachi's appearance in Konoha.....


I should re-phrase -- Itachi being a spy doesn't change Jiraiyas portrayal. Naruto (The Main Character) needed to be kept away from the Akatsuki so he got a bodyguard - Jiraiya - if you're going to sit here and tell me that Kishimoto doesn't think Jiraiya can effectively protect Naruto from the Akatsuki -- well then we're done here. Itachi being a spy (and his plans with Sasuke) only means he wanted to avoid a battle with Jiraiya (placing a civilian in genjutsu to distract him) but he has never really stood in the way of Akatsuki missions/goals meaning I highly doubt he would have got in the way of Narutos kidnapping considering the fact that he _almost did_ get away but got caught up with Sauce. If Jiraiya was not there to protect Naruto then Kisame and Itachi would have taken off with Naruto unless you're going to tell me that Itachi would have killed Kisame and taken Naruto home - I find that unlikely (right @Troyse22??). 





> Where did Itachi admit inferiority?


When he said Kisame + Itachi = Jiraiya. 





> Lmao. What's Jiraiya gonna do with Deidara's bombs in that enclosed space? Sasori's AOE poison needles and gas, Kakuzu's elemental combinations?


He can counter Deidaras Bombs by covering them with a wall of flesh or by pressuring with Ranjishigami no Jutsu. / Sasoris poison needles get dodged or blocked with his toad summon and while I don't remember Hiruko (I doubt that he would be using kazekage) using poison gas Jiraiya could evade the cloud of poison or use Ranjishigami to create an opening for the poison gas to escape.. I don't know though I don't think Sasori would poison everyone in the room (teammate). Kakuzus elements get tanked with a wall of flesh or evaded or countered with Jiraiyas own elements. Jiraiya has a lot of options here. 





> You really didn't think it through, did you...





> No reason why Itachi can't do that. Just to give Jiraiya a little hint that something isn't right. Itachi is perfectly capable of controlling the girl into doing whatever he wants her to, including acting suspicious so Jiraiya realises something is off. The whole using the girl as bait thing was just for show to Kisame.


You must have read a different manga because I never saw any of this. Where were we told that Itachi used his Genjutsu to make a civilian act like they were placed under Genjutsu..... for Kisame?


> Not that hard to grasp when you think about it. Just like when you interpret Orochimaru's statement about Itachi in a completely different context than everyone else.


I just understand the manga - that's all.


Baroxio said:


> Do you have an alternate translation? Orochimaru also says this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im not here to debate Oro vs Itachi but here:

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## Serene Grace (Dec 26, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Im not here to debate Oro vs Itachi but here:


Holy shit the translations were that off, compared to the other scan? Just goes to show you, that you could never know if a scan is correct(unless its viz, which is rare to find online).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 26, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If Jiraiya was not there to protect Naruto then Kisame and Itachi would have taken off with Naruto unless you're going to tell me that Itachi would have killed Kisame and taken Naruto home - I find that unlikely (right @Troyse22??).



No, if Itachi attempted to kill Kisame for kidnapping Naruto, the entire Akatsuki would have been after Itachi.

Assuming he lived after provoking Kisame 

Itachi never stood in the way of the Akatsukis goals, it would draw a ton of suspicion

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## The_Conqueror (Dec 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachi attempted to kill Kisame for kidnapping Naruto, the entire Akatsuki would have been after Itachi.


No one went after kakazu


Troyse22 said:


> Itachi never stood in the way of the Akatsukis goals


This i can agree on because if either of tobi or pain wanted itachi dead itachi would have been destroyed.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 26, 2016)

professor83 said:


> This i can agree on because if either of tobi or pain wanted itachi dead itachi would have been destroyed.


Well Obito wanted him dead but Itachi "had many secrets that could stop the war" so he was safe to play his Sasuke games.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 26, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Well Obito wanted him dead but Itachi "had many secrets that could stop the war" so he was safe to play his Sasuke games.


Why do you want itachi dead? 
A guy running errands and collecting you resources money, members and bijjus
A spy who doesnot leak info 
ITACHI VS SASUKE was the base for obito to win sasuke "he let you win" and ems
I would love to have a spy like that. 
I


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## Azula (Dec 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> So what? Kisame is still much better underwater than Jiraiya is, since he can breath, sense and absorb chakra. The toads can be fine underwater, but Jiraiya isnt.



He is well accustomed to operating underwater along with toads.

1) He infiltrated Rain village by going underwater
2) Also beat animal path underwater.

It goes along with the Sannin theme. They all have abilities and fighting styles corresponding to their summons.
Orochimaru has snake shedding and other abilities, Tsunade is immune to physical damage.

Plus Jiraiya and his summon can always fight from the surface of water if need be.



> The so called "puny sharks" would probably do better than the big summons that the toads fought against since they're a smaller target to hit and has vastly superior numbers.



Is that why Gai roasted the fuck out of them- because superior numbers and smaller target?

Toad Oil and Fire does the same to them as 6 gates did, only it will require less effort from Jiraiya. No need to focus on individual sharks when you attack is big enough for all of them.



> As for your last technique, Daikokan counters that hard and would destroy both Jiraiya and his toad.



The line of argumentation was-

You- Sharks attack
Me- Fire kills them

Unless you are saying Kisame switches his jutsus before Jiraiya can react.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 26, 2016)

By hype :
-Itachi is a liar and extremely good at manipulating people.
-Itachi consider himself as a lief Shinobi
-Itachi tought he was unstoppable in his lifetime
-Jiraya is one of the most important Shinobi of teh leaf.
-Itachi is portrayed beeing nearly invincible
-Obito who is stronger than Jiraya highly respects him, he said he would be killed by him and he was the only one stopping him from assaulting Konoha (not any of the sannin including Jiraya and Tsunade).
-Oro admitted his inferiorty to Itachi multiple times in the manga. Third Databook even said he suffered a "complete defeat" in their first encouter.
-Oro's superiority toward Jiraya was brought multiple times in the manga.

So if we go by manga's element all over the story, Itachi's saying in P1 is already and also "logically" countered multiple times in P2.

By feats, Jiraya starting in base doesn't stand a chance against Itachi and even in SM he never show the ability to deal with Susano'o enhanced with Totsuka and Yata.


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## Azula (Dec 26, 2016)

Itachi also warned Kisame to be careful of Gai and Gai ended up lolstompinng Kisame.

Lies! and Retcon! are not an argument. 

Kishi clearly had an idea about power levels and it carried over to part 2. All the named characters are as strong as their hype.
The only real change was Hiruzen getting booted out of strongest hokage position and to pull that off he had to put two dozen pages of hashirama hype alone.

There is no evidence of Jiraiya getting downgraded, he still went up against akatsuki and defeated one of them and would have defeated the other too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Turrin (Dec 26, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, I agree, I don't think it changed much as it translated but I do feel like that there was a serious jump in power scale.  Although, to be fair, I find that Kisame really fluctuates though based on his opponent, however at that point (in Part 1) I don't think Kisamehada or anything of that nature was even an idea, let alone on any of the books.
> 
> There are inconsistencies in Itachi/Kisame's escape of Jiraiya that would otherwise not have made sense given what we know about their characters now. Jiraiya's offense however was exceptionally consistent throughout the manga, Kishimoto did a good job of just keeping him solely attached to toad-based jutsu with mild dabbling in other areas.


There was a jump in power-scale which is probably why Kishimoto kept giving SM power ups after Jiraiya's fight with Pain like Frog-Fu, SM Sensing, etc... So it stayed relevant as one of the top powers. I don't think anything changed about Kisame's escape though as I don't believe he could counter Toad Stomach even with PII feats (talking not empowered by Bijuu chakra or Ocean).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lucaniel (Dec 26, 2016)

the p1 statement was written before kishi made the decision to make his manga about the uchihas
after he made that decision, itachi got a whole bunch of game-breaking abilities and suddenly became the goat boat 
as it stands he would take jiraiya by himself


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## Turrin (Dec 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Because it's the only one he's shown? Because during the battle of his life he never used any other doton techniques?


Tsunade didn't show a single elemental technique but according to Kishimoto she could use 4 different elements. Shinobi don't have time to show their entire arsenal. So I ask again do you have any proof that he didn't have any other Doton Techniques?



> Since Itachi has a superior katon technique (Amateratsu) than Madara, that must mean Itachi > Madara in Katon proficiency despite Madara using ridiculously large scale Katons and wider variety.


Your example isn't good because Mangekyo simply grants techniques, rather than the user mastering that technique through proficiency in that element. Also Madara is arguably one of if not thee best Katon users we've seen in the entire Manga, I wasn't calling Jiraiya thee best Doton user in the manga or as good as Top Doton users like Kitsuchi or Deidara.

The example I gave before of Naruto w/ Fuuton Rasenshuriken is a better, and maybe I wouldn't consider Naruto thee best Fuuton user ever, but I'd consider him highly proficient in the Fuuton element for mastering Rasenshuriken.



> People are shown freaking out all the time in this manga and they can still counter the techniques they were up against.
> 
> Your point about Kisame freaking about = unable to counter/survive is ridiculous.


Yeah, they still counter the technique. The focus being, that they do it, they don't look to someone else to do it, like Kisame did.



> That's like me asking you why Itachi wasted Tsukuyomi on Sasuke despite the fact that he was supposed to battle Jiraya afterwards. I guess Itachi really was moronic.


He used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke because he thought it was important part of keeping Sasuke on the path he desired for him. So it was worthwhile trade off for Itachi narratively speaking. Itachi using Amaterasu to counter Toad Stomach when Kisame could have done so w/o permanent side effects is not.



> I'd assume Kisame's threshold is higher than a dead body considering his huge amounts of chakra and durability+Samehada.


A dead body empowered by the Chakra of powerful Uzamaki wielding Uchiha-Madara's Doryuko. I'm not so sure.

I'm especially not so sure when it comes to Samehada.



> What other factor could Kisame have taken into consideration outside of hype? Jiraiya's feats?


Kisame may have know more specifics about Jiriaya, considering Jiraiya was a famous Ninja during the last Shinobi war. He may have also seen Jiraiya fight at one point or another since he was active during that war as well. Itachi, Fuguki, Orochimaru, or Obito could have also told him specifics. There are many options for how Kisame could some specifics about Jiraiya's capabilities.



> Fanfic.


I don't see what else we can call Kisame dying to Jiraiya's opening move.



> Obito viewing Kisame highly indicates that Kisame isn't some pushover that people can neg-diff.


So Kaguya can't neg-diff Kisame because Obito views him highly at capturing Jinchuuriki?

Obviously not. Everything is relevant. Kisame is a very skilled Ninja, he is simply vastly outclassed by the Ninja were comparing him to here (Jiraiya and Itachi). In the same way Hidan is very skilled Ninja and is vastly outclassed by these two as well.



> How come when Samehada touches other people their chakra isn't absorbed like that then? Many people have touched it, yet non got their chakra stolen unless they used a technique or release chakra.


Samehada being able to absorb that much chakra that way may have been due to the fusion or due to Kisame and Samehada's unique connection; or it may simply be a time thing, I.E. Samehada was able to absorb more chakra because it was touching Kisame longer. Ether way though I don't find it disputable that Samehada absorbed Kisame's chakra there.



> Samehada had no trouble absorbing Bijuu chakra which were hot enough to burn through Oro's snakes like fodder. I doubt some fodder level heat could hinder it. It just means Uchiha katons are above average.


Most high-tiers who are skilled at Katon, aren't using Fodder Katons. So to me that is pointless distinction. 



> The stuff you've listed are just a few out of many other techniques out there in this manga. Like I've said, it can absorb most things, not everything.


Okay then let me go through every high-tier for you:


Mifune - Can't absorb his IAI Techniques

Kitsuchi - Can't absorb his Doton Mountain Sando and many others since it uses a preexisting source

Hanzo - Can't absorb his Poison Techniques

Kakashi - Can't absorb his Genjutsu, Can't absorb Suitons he uses w/ a Source, likely has many other Techniques that can't be absorbed

Gai - His Strong Fist Taijutsu style can't be absorbed

Mei - Likely can't absorb her Youton or Futton Techniques, or Suitons that make use of a Water Source

Rasa - Can't absorb his Gold Dust as it makes use of preexisting source

Sandaime-Kazkeage & Sasori - Can't absorb his Satetsu because it makes use of a Preexisting source

Gaara - Can't absorb his Sand because it makes use of a Preexisting source

Ei - Probably not fast enough to absorb his R2 Attacks

Kakuzu - Probably can't absorb Katon Zukko or Katon + Fuuton Combo, and Can't absorb Jingo

Orochimaru - Can't absorb any of his Snake, Ksunagi, or Poison Attacks

Tsunade - Can't absorb her Taijutsu, Katsuya's Acid, etc...

Onoki - Can't absorb his Dotons or Jinton

Mu - Can't absorb his Jinton or likely Dotons

Deidara - Can detonate Kibaku Nendo outside his absorption range

Troll - Can't absorb his Genjutsu and can detonate Joki Boi outside his absorption range (or can simply hit him freely with Jutsu as he won't see them coming to absorb them due to Genjutsu)

Mu, Obito, and Tobirama - Are likely too fast for him to absorb their attacks

B - Can't absorb B's Ink, Hachimaki, and likely can't absorb enough of TBB to survive

Jiraiya - We've already gone over

Danzo - Can't absorb his Genjutsu

Itachi - Can't absorb his Genjutsu or Amaterasu

MS-Sasuke - Can't absorb his Genjutsu or Amaterasu

Do I need to even go on?




> That geographical advantage doesn't mean anything when Kisame can easily produce just as much water when he was at 30% of his chakra. The key difference between Gaara and Kisame is that Gaara cannot just spit out lakes of sand like Kisame can within a few seconds. Scale was never an issue with Kisame.


I don't agree that he can produce as much water. I also don't agree that the author is having Kisame state he has an advantage which is meaningless. 



> Why would it make sense for Kisame to only have access to those techniques after he's absorbed a shit ton of chakra? How did he learn to use it prior to that?


I'm not saying he can't use those Techniques, I'm saying the scale is different. For example Shoten Kisame uses Feeding Sharks too, but use the technique Suiton: Goshokuzame, which creates 5 Water Sharks. While Bijuu/Ocean Empowered Kisame uses Suiton: Senshokukō, which creates 1,000 Feeding Sharks. So Kisame knows how to make Feeding Sharks, I simply do not think he is making 1K w/o the assistance of Bijuu Chakra and an Ocean. Same thing with Daikodan, he probably can use a small variant w/o Ocean and Bijuu Chakra.



> Pretty sure Deidara also had access to flight judging by his conversation with Onoki. I refuse to believe Deidara only had C1 at that point in time.


Flight is C1. I also think he can use Flight, but I have my doubts about whether he was as skilled with Flight back then



> We also have a reason to believe Deidara had more than just clay centipede.


Yeah and I grant Deidara more then that, I grant him most of his C1 Claymation and other more generic Techniques. What I doubt is that he had C2, C3, or C0 back then. I also doubt that he was as skillful overall, I.E. I think for example his DB-stat scores would be lower in many areas back then.



> You don't become a famous terrorist by having just C1....


Why? Again Hidan became a famous S-Rank Ninja w/ just his Vodoo Technique, and maybe some other generic ones. Asuma became a famous 12 Guardain with Techniques I'd consider inferior to C1. And So on. You don't need to be a high-tier to be very famous. There are plenty of skilled Jonin who are also very famous.



> Itachi was 13, so even if Oro was weaker then, Itachi was also.


K and your point is what exactly. I don't dispute the fact that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru. I dispute the fact that the Orochimaru we saw in the manga canon would be defeated the moment his hand was chopped off, considering we've seen Orochimaru literally torn in half and regenerate. 



> Even if Oro was arrogant, Jiraiya wasn't lacking behind in arrogance the moment he looked right into Itachi's direction without any indication of trying to avoid eye contact.


Difference is that Jiraiya's confidence was support by the manga. That exchanged ended with Jiraiya successfully distancing himself form Itachi, and forcing Itachi to use one of his strongest Jutsu that permanently damages his eyesight on top of that.



> Not to mention his boast about killing both Itachi & Kisame


Itachi himself seemed to believe that it was very possible that a confrontation with Jiriaya could result in their deaths, so I don't see that as arrogance, but rather reconfirmation of something that was already stated to be plausible.



> , and even Pain himself.


Jiraiya wasn't overconfident against Pain. He underestimated Pain. There's a difference. The difference being is that Jiraiya went out of his way to give it his all against Pain, going SM and using one of his best Techniques early on in Frog-Song. He just inadvertently underestimated Pain by not knowing he had more bodies. That is a-lot different than Orochimaru slowly walking towards Itachi up a flight of stairs taking nor precautions whatsoever.



> C - Sensor/genjutsu user
> Oro - full knowledge on sharingan + experience
> Deidara - Prior knowledge + experience
> Danzo - Full knowledge
> ...


1) C didn't look Sasuke in the eyes, Sasuke forced Eye contact, there's a big difference there
2) Deidara countered Sharingan Genjutsu with his Eye, so no clue what your talking about there
3) Danzo had one of the most powerful Sharingan and Izanagi so he had good reason to be confident in his ability to counter Sharingan-Genjtusu, and indeed he did counter it, he only later was tricked by an extremely subtle illusion.
4) Gaara had partners and i'm not sure on that translation
5) Killer-B had his Bijuu to break him out
6) Madara had to force Eye contact on Ei

Literally all of these people had some counter in mind or in place, rather than just arrogantly believing they could Kai there way out of it, except Oro.



> I assure you, the list of people I've listed above are better than him in key criteria - Sensing, knowledge, experience, intelligence and power, yet they've all fallen for it. Tell me, why would Jiraiya be the special one that wouldn't fall for it?


Because of Jiraiya's fighting style. One of his first moves is typically to summon a partner Toad of some sort. Then once he realizes his enemy's power his move is typically to distance himself from the enemy and ultimately by time for SM.

So in the early game, Itachi will probably only use Finger-Genjtusu or at worse 3T, both of which have been canonical stated or outright shown to be countered by the Partner Method. So Jiraiya's heavy reliance on Partner Toads, would make it so even if Jiriaya does get caught by one of these his partner can cover for him and break him free. Then by the time Itachi would start transition to higher order Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi, Jiraiya will likely be prepping SM, at which point his style is to keep his distance from the enemy and go pure defense, which will make it difficult to achieve eye contact (Jiraiya can outright rely on motion barrier to defend like he did against Pain) or he we already be in SM.

In SM we saw that SM sensing allows a Sage to fight outright blind if they have to, and in SM Jiraiya has his own Sage Senses and the Senses of Ma/Pa to rely on. So I don't see SM-Jiriaya having a problem avoiding eye-contact and still fighting proficiently.



> The only reason why Kishi didn't make Pain use all six from the get go was because he couldn't possibly create a scenario where Jiraiya wouldn't get rape.


Again this is absolutely no different than Itachi starting a match with a basic Katon and Taijutsu, rather than starting a match with Amaterasu and Susano'o. Using one Path is simply Pain's version of how all Shinobi start matches not using their best shit and feeling out the enemy.



> Konan was useless because Jiraiya counters her HARD and has knowledge of her weaknesses beforehand. There's a huge difference between Konan and Kisame.


The fact that Konan can be countered by a basic Oil Technique and Hair Jutsu, says something about her overall level and usefulness against enemies like Jiriaya. I mean for example Gaara's Jutsu is also weak to Oil, yet he when faced with Mizukage he didn't fucking loose to Mizukage's most basic Oil Technique in like 10 seconds, he was still able to competently fight against him. Yes Jiraiya had the right Jutsu, but if the level gap wasn't tremendous the author wouldn't have had him dispatch Konan so easily, even despite holding that advantage.

In Kisame's case, the tremendous gap is still there, but Jiriaya didn't have as ideal of a counter, so Kishimoto had him use a stronger Jutsu of his (Toad Stomach), one of Base-Jiraiya's best Techniques, but because the gap is still huge, the result remained the same, Kisame was useless and needed his ass saved by someone who was actually in Jiraiya's league.



> Flush he toad out with some sharks. Not that hard.


Jiraiya can freely alter the size of the Toad Stomach, he controls the dimensional space inside the stomach complete. So Kisame can't flood the stomach. Not to mention as Kisame tried to barf out the water to use to generate those sharks, the Toad stomach would close in on him and crush him



> If Itachi wanted to, he could've killed Jiraiya the moment he crouched down to use frog stomach. He had zero route of escape, no knowledge and zero defense is fast enough to defend.


And if Jiraiya wanted to he could've killed Itachi and Kisame by summoning Bunta ontop of their heads the moment he appeared instead of a Guard Toad or arrived in full blown SM, but he didn't. It's simply not how Ninja fight in Naruto, they start with the lesser shit first.



> It's not ONLY finger genjutsu, it's sharingan genjutsu as well....Which has far better feats than Animal path and its summons.


And I don't agree that it does.



> Itachi's normal opening move is genjutsu. Not sure why it's irrelevant. He's always been using different types of genjutsu as his opening move. Not sure why this is any different.


That's like saying his normal opening move is Genjutsu, so him starting with Tsukuyomi or Izanami is likely. Itachi literally never used Shisui-Eye-Crow in any of his previous fights, he instead used Finger or his own 3T-Gen. Against Naruto it was special circumstance because he was going to bequeath the Crow to him anyway and had little time to do so.



> If someone is avoiding his eye contact, he'll use a genjutsu that doesn't require eye contact. Not rocket science.


True but he would likely use Finger Genjutsu first. He would be very hesitant to bring out Shisui-Eye Crow, because of the chance of it falling into the wrong hands or it being destroyed by the enemy. He would hold it back and probably only use it if he absolutely had to.




> Bee's partner method is the fastest method you can possibly have, with a partner inside your mind breaking you out. There's no way a toad is going to save Jiraiya faster or equally as fast as Hachibi did to save Bee


The Toad may or may not save Jiriaya as fast, it depends on how close the Toad is, but the Toad can also interact in the physical world, which means it can defend Itachi's successive attack, until it gets a chance to break Jiraiya out. For example if Itachi did that 3T + Shuriken attack against Jiraiya, with Bunta, Ken, or Hiro out, they would just block the Shuriken and then break Jiraiya out rather then needing to break Jiriaya out before the Shuriken hit him.


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## Baroxio (Dec 26, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Im not here to debate Oro vs Itachi but here:



Not bad. +reps. Is there an alternate translation for the other scan, where Orochimaru actually says "[Itachi] is stronger than me" and we see Itachi's silhouette?


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## Platypus (Dec 26, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> (unless its viz, which is rare to find online).


http://mangalife.org/manga/Naruto


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## Sapherosth (Dec 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Tsunade didn't show a single elemental technique but according to Kishimoto she could use 4 different elements. Shinobi don't have time to show their entire arsenal. So I ask again do you have any proof that he didn't have any other Doton Techniques?



So what if she can supposedly use 4 different elements? In her fight against Madara she didn't use any. It's not like she's going to start throwing some elemental combinations against other opponents.

The burden of proof isn't on me at all. You're the one trying to say he has more.




> Your example isn't good because Mangekyo simply grants techniques, rather than the user mastering that technique through proficiency in that element. Also Madara is arguably one of if not thee best Katon users we've seen in the entire Manga, I wasn't calling Jiraiya thee best Doton user in the manga or as good as Top Doton users like Kitsuchi or Deidara.



I am saying just because you have 1 ok technique doesn't mean you have access to other techniques that can be a threat.

C only showed 1 genjutsu. Would you suddenly grant him other genjutsu's as well since he showed one?

If Jiraiya isn't the best Doton user, how will he contend with Kisame who's the best suiton user in the manga so far?




> Yeah, they still counter the technique. The focus being, that they do it, they don't look to someone else to do it, like Kisame did.



They could have done it alone if they wanted to.



> He used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke because he thought it was important part of keeping Sasuke on the path he desired for him. So it was worthwhile trade off for Itachi narratively speaking. Itachi using Amaterasu to counter Toad Stomach when Kisame could have done so w/o permanent side effects is not.



So Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke despite knowing he was supposed to "fight" Jiraiya afterwards?

Despite  earlier stating that he and Kisame might die, he's casually wasting chakra. It just goes to show that Itachi had zero intention of fighting to begin with.




> A dead body empowered by the Chakra of powerful Uzamaki wielding Uchiha-Madara's Doryuko. I'm not so sure.
> 
> I'm especially not so sure when it comes to Samehada.



So you're not sure, but you believe that Preta path > Kisame anyways when it comes to handling natural energy.




> *Kisame may have know more specifics about Jiriaya, considering Jiraiya was a famous Ninja during the last Shinobi war. He may have also seen Jiraiya fight at one point or another since he was active during that war as well. Itachi, Fuguki, Orochimaru, or Obito could have also told him specifics. There are many options for how Kisame could some specifics about Jiraiya's capabilities*.



That's a huge stretch right there. There's zero evidence of that whatsoever. If he knew about Jiraiya's abilities, he wouldn't have to bring hype into it.



> I don't see what else we can call Kisame dying to Jiraiya's opening move.



But he wasn't..lmao



> So Kaguya can't neg-diff Kisame because Obito views him highly at capturing Jinchuuriki?



The gap is quite huge, wouldn't you say....Kaguya > Obito > Kisame. Obito viewing Kisame highly wouldn't mean Kisame > Kaguya.

However, Obito viewing Kisame as being capable of handling Killer Bee (A perfect Jin) suggests that he's at least enough to give a Sannin a good fight.



> Obviously not. Everything is relevant. Kisame is a very skilled Ninja, he is simply vastly outclassed by the Ninja were comparing him to here (Jiraiya and Itachi). In the same way Hidan is very skilled Ninja and is vastly outclassed by these two as well.



Kisame outclasses Hidan as well.

Killer Bee most probably outclasses Jiraiya, but Kisame gave Killer Bee a good fight. What's your point?





> Most high-tiers who are skilled at Katon, aren't using Fodder Katons. So to me that is pointless distinction.



You were talking about fodder poison and acid heat affecting Samehada.....




> Okay then let me go through every high-tier for you:
> 
> 
> Mifune - Can't absorb his IAI Techniques
> ...




I am not really interested in listing the jutsu's that Samehada CAN absorb....because the list would be far longer.

Furthermore, the majority of stuff you've listed, Preta path cannot absorb them either.





> I don't agree that he can produce as much water. I also don't agree that the author is having Kisame state he has an advantage which is meaningless.



Doesn't take away the fact that Kisame is still disadvantaged via match up/no weapon.




> I'm not saying he can't use those Techniques, I'm saying the scale is different. For example Shoten Kisame uses Feeding Sharks too, but use the technique Suiton: Goshokuzame, which creates 5 Water Sharks. While Bijuu/Ocean Empowered Kisame uses Suiton: Senshokukō, which creates 1,000 Feeding Sharks. So Kisame knows how to make Feeding Sharks, I simply do not think he is making 1K w/o the assistance of Bijuu Chakra and an Ocean. Same thing with Daikodan, he probably can use a small variant w/o Ocean and Bijuu Chakra.



Kisame had 30% chakra (which was already comparable to Cloak Naruto). If that much chakra is only capable of creating 5 sharks I would be very surprised.

Did Kisame even absorb Bijuu chakra at all? I only remember him absorbing Killer Bee's chakra and Aoba's.



> Flight is C1. I also think he can use Flight, but I have my doubts about whether he was as skilled with Flight back then



Funnily enough, people don't use the same concept when it comes to Obito. For some reason, when Minato defeated a YOUNG Obito, people automatically believe Minato would defeat an older Obito as well, despite the fact that Obito should have grown stronger and more skilled.



> Yeah and I grant Deidara more then that, I grant him most of his C1 Claymation and other more generic Techniques. What I doubt is that he had C2, C3, or C0 back then. I also doubt that he was as skillful overall, I.E. I think for example his DB-stat scores would be lower in many areas back then.



Ridiculous. The only technique Deidara stated he developed after that battle was C4 and training his eye.



> Why? Again Hidan became a famous S-Rank Ninja w/ just his Vodoo Technique, and maybe some other generic ones. Asuma became a famous 12 Guardain with Techniques I'd consider inferior to C1. And So on. You don't need to be a high-tier to be very famous. There are plenty of skilled Jonin who are also very famous.



Hidan is hardly famous in comparison to other characters. Asuma trumps him in fame, yet still lost. Hell Kakashi trumps him too, but still took some time fighting him.



> K and your point is what exactly. I don't dispute the fact that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru. I dispute the fact that the Orochimaru we saw in the manga canon would be defeated the moment his hand was chopped off, considering we've seen Orochimaru literally torn in half and regenerate.



Pretty sure the databook stated that Oro suffered a "*complete defeat*" which was emphasised in the manga and Oro's statement. He even kept his hand that was chopped off. I highly doubt that someone as arrogant as Oro would keep his own hand as a reminder like that unless it was something memorable....the biggest rape of his life probably.




> Difference is that Jiraiya's confidence was support by the manga. That exchanged ended with Jiraiya successfully distancing himself form Itachi, and forcing Itachi to use one of his strongest Jutsu that permanently damages his eyesight on top of that.



Except Itachi *wanted* to distance himself in the first place. You're talking as if Jiraiya forced them to when it fact Itachi had to plans to fight to begin with.

This is emphasised later on where Kisame asks Itachi if they should go capture the Kyuubi. Itachi never mentioned Jiraiya as an obstacle at all, but he stated that the Kyuubi must be captured last so Kisame reluctantly agreed. Thus, Itachi succeeded in stalling Kyuubi's capture, NOT Jiraiya.




> Itachi himself seemed to believe that it was very possible that a confrontation with Jiriaya could result in their deaths, so I don't see that as arrogance, but rather reconfirmation of something that was already stated to be plausible.



Itachi himself believed that only people with the same blood and eyes as him can defeat him. He also believed he can do anything, and goes as far to say that he doesn't trust anybody else's strengths.

Should I start believing those words too? That no one except people with the same blood can defeat him?




> Jiraiya wasn't overconfident against Pain. He underestimated Pain. There's a difference. The difference being is that Jiraiya went out of his way to give it his all against Pain, going SM and using one of his best Techniques early on in Frog-Song. He just inadvertently underestimated Pain by not knowing he had more bodies.



He overestimated himself the moment he thinks he can defeat a Rinnegan user.



> That is a-lot different than Orochimaru slowly walking towards Itachi up a flight of stairs taking nor precautions whatsoever.



Orochimaru actually tried to ambush Itachi, but failed. He tried to attack from behind, but got genjutsu trolled.



> 1) C didn't look Sasuke in the eyes, Sasuke forced Eye contact, there's a big difference there
> 2) Deidara countered Sharingan Genjutsu with his Eye, so no clue what your talking about there
> 3) Danzo had one of the most powerful Sharingan and Izanagi so he had good reason to be confident in his ability to counter Sharingan-Genjtusu, and indeed he did counter it, he only later was tricked by an extremely subtle illusion.
> 4) Gaara had partners and i'm not sure on that translation
> ...



This just goes to show that eye contacts can be forced onto you, as shown on all those characters listed above.

Jiraiya has zero answer to Tsukuyomi and Itachi forcing eye contact via clone feints/crows/distractions which worked on people superior than Jiraiya in terms of intelligence, sensing, power, hype, speed and knowledge.

Deidara fell for Sasuke's genjutsu the second time - he didn't see through it.




> Because of Jiraiya's fighting style. One of his first moves is typically to summon a partner Toad of some sort. Then once he realizes his enemy's power his move is typically to distance himself from the enemy and ultimately by time for SM.



Tsukuyomi bypasses partner method, and eye contact can be forced upon you as shown many times in this manga. Jiraya has no answer to it. Furthermore, Jiraiya (with no hands) and his toad has no speed or defense against Amateratsu.

He cannot retreat from Itachi's superior speed and sharingan, not to mention the flames that can ignite wherever Itachi's looking at.



> So in the early game, Itachi will probably only use Finger-Genjtusu or at worse 3T, both of which have been canonical stated or outright shown to be countered by the Partner Method. So Jiraiya's heavy reliance on Partner Toads, would make it so even if Jiriaya does get caught by one of these his partner can cover for him and break him free. Then by the time Itachi would start transition to higher order Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi, Jiraiya will likely be prepping SM, at which point his style is to keep his distance from the enemy and go pure defense, which will make it difficult to achieve eye contact (Jiraiya can outright rely on motion barrier to defend like he did against Pain) or he we already be in SM.



Jiraiya outright stated that without seeing the attacks, one cannot defend against it effectively. He also doesn't possess Kabuto's sensory abilities, so he has no chance of avoiding a feint/decapitation when he's avoiding eye contact.

Jiraiya's style is never to keep a distance and go on pure defense. He canonically went offensive against Pain many, many times at the start of the fight and even CQC, which are all genjutsu range. Only when he realises that his offense doesn't work would he rely on retreat/defend.



> In SM we saw that SM sensing allows a Sage to fight outright blind if they have to, and in SM Jiraiya has his own Sage Senses and the Senses of Ma/Pa to rely on. So I don't see SM-Jiriaya having a problem avoiding eye-contact and still fighting proficiently.



You've got to be shitting me. Kabuto's SM sensing shits on Jiraiya's SM sensing by far, not mention Jiraiya's SM sensing wasn't even shown or emphasised to be a factor at all against his fight with Pain. To say that Kishi retconed it a few chapters later is ridiculous. Kishi probably intended to have Jiraiya as an inferior SM user to Naruto to begin with, which is why Jiraiya's SM sensing was never emphasised or shown.

Ma & Pa's sensing wouldn't help Jiraiya at all because they would need to shout/communicate with him in order to tell him and that's far too slow against a much faster and intelligent ninja like Itachi.




> Again this is absolutely no different than Itachi starting a match with a basic Katon and Taijutsu, rather than starting a match with Amaterasu and Susano'o. Using one Path is simply Pain's version of how all Shinobi start matches not using their best shit and feeling out the enemy.



What about people like Sasuke going Susano immediately. Minato FTG. Obito Kamui. Onoki Jinton. Those are their best techniques, but they use it immediately.

Are they all weaker than Animal realm?

Let me put it this way. *Itachi's 3T genjutsu is far more dangerous in battle at the start against than Animal realm since it has the potential to finish it in 1 shot. *Animal realm would still have to chase people down and wear them out which takes much longer than trapping them in a genjutsu/clone feint.




> The fact that Konan can be countered by a basic Oil Technique and Hair Jutsu, says something about her overall level and usefulness against enemies like Jiriaya. I mean for example Gaara's Jutsu is also weak to Oil, yet he when faced with Mizukage he didn't fucking loose to Mizukage's most basic Oil Technique in like 10 seconds, he was still able to competently fight against him. Yes Jiraiya had the right Jutsu, but if the level gap wasn't tremendous the author wouldn't have had him dispatch Konan so easily, even despite holding that advantage.



Well, I guess Obito must be fucking fodder since Konan managed to wound him that much.

Paper doesn't = Sand. Gaara's weakness to Oil is far less than Konan is.



> In Kisame's case, the tremendous gap is still there, but Jiriaya didn't have as ideal of a counter, so Kishimoto had him use a stronger Jutsu of his (Toad Stomach), one of Base-Jiraiya's best Techniques, but because the gap is still huge, the result remained the same, Kisame was useless and needed his ass saved by someone who was actually in Jiraiya's league.



You should create  a thread. I want to see who else actually believes that Jiraiya low-diffs Kisame in battle.




> Jiraiya can freely alter the size of the Toad Stomach, he controls the dimensional space inside the stomach complete. So Kisame can't flood the stomach. Not to mention as Kisame tried to barf out the water to use to generate those sharks, the Toad stomach would close in on him and crush him



Why can't the sharks eat the stomach? We have people eating Kyuubi stomach, so I don't see why a toad's stomach would be impossible.

You say that Jiraiya can alter the size of the toad stomach, but fail to acknowledge the fact that there has to be a limit to how much he can do it. There's no way he can expand the stomach into the size of a mountain, not to mention the fact that Jiraiya is also trapped in there as well, so he's susceptible to Kisame's attacks.




> And* if Jiraiya wanted to he could've killed Itachi and Kisame by summoning Bunta ontop of their heads the moment he appeared instead of a Guard Toad or arrived in full blown SM, but he didn't.* It's simply not how Ninja fight in Naruto, they start with the lesser shit first.



You think Itachi and Kisame is gonna die to Bunta falling on their heads? 




> That's like saying his normal opening move is Genjutsu, so him starting with Tsukuyomi or Izanami is likely. Itachi literally never used Shisui-Eye-Crow in any of his previous fights, he instead used Finger or his own 3T-Gen. Against Naruto it was special circumstance because he was going to bequeath the Crow to him anyway and had little time to do so.



It's no different than you saying Jiraiya would suddenly use frog stomach, retreat and return with SM despite the fact that isn't what he did in the manga despite the fact that he's never done so.

At the very least, Itachi has shown to be able to use Shisui's crow to cast genjutsu without eye contact.



> True but he would likely use Finger Genjutsu first. He would be very hesitant to bring out Shisui-Eye Crow, because of the chance of it falling into the wrong hands or it being destroyed by the enemy. He would hold it back and probably only use it if he absolutely had to.



That's only if Itachi has other purpose for that crow though. In NBD, Itachi wouldn't be worried about the crows being used by other people or have to reserve it for Sasuke. He'll use whatever means necessary to win.


[/QUOTE]The Toad may or may not save Jiriaya as fast, it depends on how close the Toad is, but the Toad can also interact in the physical world, which means it can defend Itachi's successive attack, until it gets a chance to break Jiraiya out. For example if Itachi did that 3T + Shuriken attack against Jiraiya, with Bunta, Ken, or Hiro out, they would just block the Shuriken and then break Jiraiya out rather then needing to break Jiriaya out before the Shuriken hit him.[/QUOTE]

What happens if Itachi casts the genjutsu on both of them? Or use it discretely so the other person doesn't realise?

He's obviously stated by Shukaku to be capable of doing it.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> There was a jump in power-scale which is probably why Kishimoto kept giving SM power ups after Jiraiya's fight with Pain like Frog-Fu, SM Sensing, etc... So it stayed relevant as one of the top powers. I don't think anything changed about Kisame's escape though as I don't believe he could counter Toad Stomach even with PII feats (talking not empowered by Bijuu chakra or Ocean).


Yeah, I think him being near water or hopped on bijuu chakra is something I would consider having Jiraiya at a disadvantage, moreso the latter, i.e. it's super hard to imagine Jiraiya winning an underwater battle. But yeah, he didn't change Kisame's portrayal but just the scale of things changed.


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## Icegaze (Dec 26, 2016)

It's absolutely silly to refuse to acknowledge the following points 
1) kisame stated he had location advantage against gai . The scale of his jutsu obviously got a boost from that 

We saw kakashi water dragon in part 1
By part 2 with all the inflation and all we saw itachi water dragon without a source 
It was hilariously smaller 

So despite the fact that kisame can barf a lake already being in an ocean saves chakra and gives him more water than he could ever barf out so all his chakra is dedicated into his attacks Vs attempting to get location avantage 

2) quite obvious kisame stole bee chakra which at the very least got him back to 100% stamina as shown from his recovered physique 

3) It's false to generalise how ninja start battles 
Minato always starts with FTg and so on point was already made by a poster . Nagato could have started with more paths If he felt jiriaya was a threat 

There was also a strategy to wearing jiriaya out which can be effective 

It's unlikely for kisame to beat jiriaya In a fight 

Feel free to poll it


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## Jinnobi (Dec 26, 2016)

Itachi had to maintain his cover. He never wanted to capture Naruto - he wanted to send a message to Danzo. He also wanted to see Sasuke. He accomplished both goals.

Itachi is far more powerful than base Jiraiya. I think anyone can clearly perceive this obvious truth if they are willing to see it. Adding Kisame is just a huge, huge stomp. Hundreds of chapters later, Naruto tells KB that if zombie Itachi used Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi that the fight would essentially be over -- that's Itachi vs two opponents far more potent than base Jiraiya. 

I think it's fair to say that nearly everything Itachi said in those early chapters was misleading, as he wanted to accomplish his personal goals and not harm Naruto or Konoha in any way. He did just that. 

To quote Kisame, after Jiraiya's boastful statement: "Why is retreat necessary... For YOU?!" It wasn't, except Itachi is secretly working for Konoha so he backed out like a pro when shit got real. Jiraiya's statement and Itachi's statement are both bullshit. In the context of the story you and I can easily see why. And context is everything.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> One point if kisame got skinny due to lack of food for weeks while stuck in samehada
> How did he suddenly get back to size once he absorbed chakra ?
> 
> Isn't it an obvious case of he got skinny because his chakra was stolen
> ...




Well that's fucking hilarious since Killer Bee nor Roshi turned into skinny dudes after getting their chakra's absorbed. Kisame being skinny had fuck all to do with chakra. He just didn't eat any food. Stealing chakra probably regenerated him, just like how it restored his chest against Killer Bee. 

To even THINK that Samehada turned Kisame skinny by absorbing his chakra is ridiculous. 





Icegaze said:


> It's absolutely silly to refuse to acknowledge the following points
> 1) kisame stated he had location advantage against gai . The scale of his jutsu obviously got a boost from that
> 
> We saw kakashi water dragon in part 1
> ...




Who the fuck said Kisame wins against Jiraiya?


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## Serene Grace (Dec 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well that's fucking hilarious since Killer Bee nor Roshi turned into skinny dudes after getting their chakra's absorbed. Kisame being skinny had fuck all to do with chakra. He just didn't eat any food. Stealing chakra probably regenerated him, just like how it restored his chest against Killer Bee.
> 
> To even THINK that Samehada turned Kisame skinny by absorbing his chakra is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Nagatocome to mind?
P.S: I could be wrong, but the amount of chakra you have, does seem to effect your health in some way.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 26, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Nagatocome to mind?
> P.S: I could be wrong, but the amount of chakra you have, does seem to effect your health in some way.



You're gonna need to elaborate on that. Pretty sure Nagato was like that because of Gedo Mazo and a serious lack of exercise


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## Jinnobi (Dec 26, 2016)

IMO chakra seems to bolster health, and draining it reverts you to your "natural" state. Give an emaciated person an infusion of chakra and they'd regenerate to a healthy state - taking it away would return that person to an emaciated state. Draining an otherwise healthy person wouldn't make them a frail crippled mess, they'd just be a (power-level wise) weakened but otherwise fully biologically functional human being. Chakra is mystical by nature. It can enhance health, but taking it away doesn't *necessarily* degenerate health. It's just a revert to their otherwise base state of health. This is how make sense of this question - just one possible explanation.


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## Turrin (Dec 26, 2016)

@

All the Pro-Itachi vs Jiraiya stuff, I've heard many times over, and I've never found it convincing, so unless something new is brought to the table, I don't have the will to retread that same debate YET AGAIN across so many points as it's too big of waste of time. I read through your post and there is nothing new, so I'm not going to even address it.

As far as the Kisame stuff goes. I simply see that Hall-Way scene differently than you do. To me it's extremely clear that Kisame looked to Itachi to save his ass and could not counter Toad Stomach himself. I think this also fits with Kisame's statement prior to that encounter and after that encounter that indicate he is completely outclassed by Jiraiya and can't really do much of anything against him; as well as the indication that he is closer to PI-Kakashi level. And after reading your post I don't see any argument from you that really make me believe differently on this subject in the slightest. So again unless you bring forward some new interesting point, i'm also going to drop this as I simply don't agree that your position has any merit whatsoever right now, not to be rude, as your entitled to your opinion, but even when I try to see things from your perspective I simply can't. And that may be my personal problem, but it is what it is and it's better not to waste any more of our time on this.

I'd be more susceptible to argument stating that Kisame's power got retecon'd in PII, but the problem I have with that is him still struggling with a character of Roshi's level. You've asserted that Roshi is stronger then I'm giving him credit for, but I still haven't seen any proof on your part to substantiate that claim. You've also said Kisame was disadvantaged because he couldn't absorb Roshi's Youton Jutsu, but like I showed most high-tiers have attacks Kisame can't absorb, so I don't think this is a huge disadvantage or at least not one Kisame wouldn't face against almost every high-tier. 

Then the last part seems just to be that Kisame's feats indicate that he is stronger than say a Hidan, but I don't agree with this because Kisame was clearly empowered by circumstance in both his major battles. I simply don't think the author would go out of his way to indicate Kisame grows in power exponentially based on the amount of chakra he get the oppertunity to absorb and then give him the chance to absorb a ton of Bijuu chakra; and then ontop of that give him other situational advantages like B having to protect Sabo/Ponta or having an Ocean topographic advantage, if Kisame could normally perform as well as he did w/o those advantages. So I don't really agree with using those feats as a measuring stick for Kisame's ability normally. And once again I have not seen any argument from you that I can agree with. 

Basically what I'm saying is unless I see some new or interesting arguments here I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this and go our separate ways.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 26, 2016)

Retcon and Itachi didnot want .. . .  . Itachis charcater itself was a retcon in all likelihood)  are the only two arguments i have ever heard

A basic technique forced itachi to use his second strongest ms technique and kisame was prevented from getting one paneled.

Jiraiya was made to keep naruto despite all akatsuki threat

Pt 2

Kishi made him face the strongest akatsuki


Hiruzens potrayal was clearly retconned through various statements
"There is no stronger shinobi than hashirama such that his power was a fairytale" kabuto
"The only one who can beat madara is the late First hokage" Dan
"You dont compare to hashirama.  Only hashirama can stop me" Madara
"First hokage is different he can undo my binding any time" orochimaru

That was clearly retconned unlike itachi and jiraiya.  Jirayas hype and potrayal never once depleted in the manga


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> @
> 
> All the Pro-Itachi vs Jiraiya stuff, I've heard many times over, and I've never found it convincing, so unless something new is brought to the table, I don't have the will to retread that same debate YET AGAIN across so many points as it's too big of waste of time. I read through your post and there is nothing new, so I'm not going to even address it.
> 
> ...





I am only going to reply about Roshi.

Kisame stated that Roshi was hard to catch. 

Kisame later on stated that Killer Bee (despite using multiple forms of V1/V2) was easy to catch and wasn't as tough as he thought. At the very least, Roshi was above that version of Killer Bee, which was quite tough to begin with.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Very obvious indeed
> Kisame take them out
> Seperates jiraiya from naruto instead of backing off.  Does nothing when kisame was ready to cut narutos leg



Backed off and looking suspicious to Kisame? Blown his cover.



> friend
> 
> Had kisame and Itachi gained more attention they would have to take on an entire nation that so they were obviously avoiding trouble for their sake.



You think Itachi and Kisame is incapable of taking several people down with them ? Konoha lives were saved that day.



> He used every thing against kakashi
> decoy
> clone and 3 tomoe gen or doubt would have worked against kakashi with sharingan



So what? Lmfao.

He did the same thing to Hebi Sasuke, and we ALL knew that Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. Unless you're trying to say Itachi was trying to kill Sasuke?



> Tobi when fighting with all konoha ninjas could have easily taken them all out but he didnot does that mean tobi was on side of konoha?



He was stalling, not fighting. Plus we know for a fact that Obito wasn't there to fight. At least Obito didn't have to pretend to want to kill them. 





> Then itachis story quicky falls apart after him being a good guy at such in pt2
> 
> Kishi introduced multiple panels to praise itachi pacifist and all




Kakashi wondering why Itachi didn't kill him didn't question you a tiny bit?

The fact that Itachi only has 1 S rank mission didn't question you one bit?



> A so call intelligent uchiha finds out a  but doesnot to convey his status to village nor his clan which could have given both sides a common enemy and common ground but let me ask him to wipe out the clan
> Let me kill all the innocents the rice cracker elders and become a pacifist. The fact that a proud clan has no innocents



At that point the Uchiha's were already set on revolting. Even if he told them about Obito, what are they gonna do? Become best buddies with the leaf? Itachi had no evidence that Obito was the one who did it, nor can he even prove Obito's existence. Who would believe him?




> war: Hidden leaf was attacked multiple times by tobi,  orochimaru ,pain and heck even uchiha were wiped out was there any war??.



Are you even aware of how devastating a CIVIL WAR can be? Add to that, all the konoha elders agreed to it too, so blaming it on Itachi alone is dumb as hell.

Hiruzen even admitted that he was one of the biggest perpetrator.



> Itachi had used his ms twice and then forced to use it one more time



So what? People are forced to use jutsu to defend. It's normal. If Itachi didn't use Ama to flee, he would use it to kill instead, which at that point in time, Jiraiya has absolutely zero clue about it and would not have been able to counter at all.




> Itachis ms was said to be a double edged sword  and itachi himself says it was exhausting.  So to fight with jiraiya and gai coming as a backup+ getting attention meaning more shinobi(anbu+danzo) to come it was in their best interest to retreat.  Their plan was to go quite about their business but it failed when jiraiya came.  They werenot capable of taking on a entire nation if the fight dragged on.



So what if Itachi & Kisame wasn't capable of taking on the entire nation? They can take a shitloads of people down with them, which would be devastating for the leaf.

Even if Jiraiya wasn't there, Itachi would've found a way to convince Kisame to not capture Naruto, just like he did in Part 2.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am only going to reply about Roshi.
> 
> Kisame stated that Roshi was hard to catch.
> 
> Kisame later on stated that Killer Bee (despite using multiple forms of V1/V2) was easy to catch and wasn't as tough as he thought. At the very least, Roshi was above that version of Killer Bee, which was quite tough to begin with.


I already covered this. Kisame was an ideal match for V1/V2-B and Kisame had the additional advantage of B having to protect Sabo and Ponta. That's the only reason Kisame had less difficulty with B.

Roshi to my knowledge has no feats or hype that would place him as stronger than V1/V2-B, so unless you can substantiate this assertion in anyway beyond Kisame's performance against B, which was augmented by match up and circumstance, then I don't find this argument persuasive in the slightest.


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## Yoko (Dec 27, 2016)

IMO, the four tails was a stand-out Jinchuuriki in the battle -  was even tossing around the Hachibi.  Lava armor is a beastly CQC technique that apparently can burn without physical contact according to DB4, he could spit out molten lava balls at will, and generate mini volcanic explosions - he was basically a heavily toned down version of Akainu.  

With even half decent CQC stats (which I'd assume Roshi has, considering his base performance against Bee and Naruto), that moveset is dangerous - moreso than basic Raiton flow, at least, which is all Killer Bee ever had when excluding Bijuu mode.

It's weird to champion Kisame's clearly hype-driven words when speaking of the Sannin's title, and then marginalize Kisame's far more serious words when he implies Itachi's power is enough to deal with Jiraiya as well his statements about Roshi.  It definitely hurts argument consistency.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I already covered this. Kisame was an ideal match for V1/V2-B and Kisame had the additional advantage of B having to protect Sabo and Ponta. That's the only reason Kisame had less difficulty with B.
> 
> Roshi to my knowledge has no feats or hype that would place him as stronger than V1/V2-B, so unless you can substantiate this assertion in anyway beyond Kisame's performance against B, which was augmented by match up and circumstance, then I don't find this argument persuasive in the slightest.




So you do admit that match ups play a huge factor. So why is it so hard to admit that Jiraiya was just a bad match up for Konan, not that he's far superior than her? Using the whole Konan being useless in that battle as a case for Kisame also being useless is ridiculous. 

Killer Bee protecting those two doesn't stop him from utlizing his other small scale techs like V1/V2 though. Both of which are troublesome to deal with. Roshi pushed Kisame to a high-diff, while Kisame getting his chest torn apart by Killer Bee called it a low-diff fight. 

Using your logic, Jiraiya already had trouble with 4 tails Naruto alone, and he nearly died subduing one. Kisame low-diffed someone who's superior to 4 tails which nearly killed Jiraiya. 



Jiraiya is never low-diffing Kisame.


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## Ayala (Dec 27, 2016)

Come on, ffs, when they try and take Itachi to some prophet saviour level is the moment it gets me more annoyed. 

No one can deny, don't matter how you spin it, that Kurenai's head was about to be cut through with a kunai if she took a split second more to get out of the genjutsu and she was either heavily injured/dead if Kakashi was a half second late. 

"Yea but he did the same against Sasuke" is not an excuse, because he didn't for first. We saw that the whole battle even when we didn't know about "good guy Itachi" was fought to gain Sasuke's eyes, so he had to keep him in good shape. Never was Sasuke one step from getting blown or killed like Kurenai was. 

He wanted to drill Kakashi too and kill him with a kunai in the back, going as far as using shuriken to mask his jutsu. At the end of his Tsukuyomi too, he was exhausted, as he was panting heavily. 

He and Kisame had to retreat, or else Gai and Asuma and jonin and shitloads of anbu to come would have blown them out the map. 

It's obvious he didn't gave two shits about the jonin since the moment he asked Kisame to kill them, he didn't know Kisame was about to get sent flying before he could do it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Come on, ffs, when they try and take Itachi to some prophet saviour level is the moment it gets me more annoyed.
> 
> No one can deny, don't matter how you spin it, that Kurenai's head was about to be cut through with a kunai if she took a split second more to get out of the genjutsu and she was either heavily injured/dead if Kakashi was a half second late.
> 
> ...




Lmao.

Sasuke HIMSELF believed he was about to be killed multiple times in that battle yet we knew that Itachi wasn't actually trying to do it.

Kurenai's situation is identical to Kabuto's situation where Kabuto barely escaped with his head intact.



The above scenario suggests the follow:

1. Itachi tried to decapitate Kabuto
2. Itachi intentionally allowed Kabuto to dodge
3. Itachi expected Kabuto to be able to dodge it.

However, the 1st option is out of the window because we know Itachi isn't allowed to kill Kabuto. That leaves us with the other two options. Tell me, how would YOU explain the above panel?

Just because Itachi made it look like he was trying doesn't mean he was - This is reaffirmed by Kakashi who stated that it wasn't all Itachi's got, and then later on wondered why he wasn't already killed.

You're trying to argue against the manga.


Oh yeah, I hate to break it to you, but Itachi is a prophet. 





This panel combined with everything else, it's plausible.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am only going to reply about Roshi.
> 
> Kisame stated that Roshi was hard to catch.
> 
> Kisame later on stated that Killer Bee (despite using multiple forms of V1/V2) was easy to catch and wasn't as tough as he thought. At the very least, Roshi was above that version of Killer Bee, which was quite tough to begin with.


The difference with that is Roshi probably made Kisame more powerful, against Jiraiya that wouldn't work out too well given the risks of senjutsu and how poor of a natural energy balancer he is. I do agree that if it ever makes to Waterdome status, he should win but I feel like his need to absorb chakra will likely be his downfall and happen before it gets to that point.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> The difference with that is Roshi probably made Kisame more powerful, against Jiraiya that wouldn't work out too well given the risks of senjutsu and how poor of a natural energy balancer he is. I do agree that if it ever makes to Waterdome status, he should win but I feel like his need to absorb chakra will likely be his downfall and happen before it gets to that point.




How would Roshi make Kisame more powerful?

Roshi is a lava style user and his body is fully covered in lava/magma, and I highly doubt that Samehada was the key to Kisame's victory considering it's weak to extreme heat. Kisame most likely won using his suiton, not Samehada.

It makes sense, because:

Fire/Heat > Samehada > Suiton > Fire/Heat.


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## Ayala (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Lmao.
> 
> Sasuke HIMSELF believed he was about to be killed multiple times in that battle yet we knew that Itachi wasn't actually trying to do it.
> 
> ...



With what did Sasuke risk getting killed during that battle, with scrub Katons he tanked no problem or with scrub shuriken he also tanked or deflected no problem? Or with Amaterasu which Sasuke again got out from? Or Tsukuyomi which Sasuke saw through? Only thing that Sasuke risked dying against was Susano'o, only that Itachi didn't use it against him. 

I can't try and debate the rest with you because you would answer to any of that with "it was all Itachi's keikaku". No no, don't want none of that


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> With what did Sasuke risk getting killed during that battle, with scrub Katons he tanked no problem or with scrub shuriken he also tanked or deflected no problem? Or with Amaterasu which Sasuke again got out from? Or Tsukuyomi which Sasuke saw through? Only thing that Sasuke risked dying against was Susano'o, only that Itachi didn't use it against him.
> 
> I can't try and debate the rest with you because you would answer to any of that with "it was all Itachi's keikaku". No no, don't want none of that







I am not gonna bother explaining such a simple fact in this manga. Someone else can do it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Backed off and looking suspicious to Kisame? Blown his cover.


Doesnot mean he didnot have a killing intent.  Does itachi already know kakashi would see through all his jutsu and even save kurenai?


Sapherosth said:


> You think Itachi and Kisame is incapable of taking several people down with them ? Konoha lives were saved that day.


Yes, they arenot taking a great nation. Gai Danzo jiraiya anbu yet to come .  They arenot lasting long in a full scale battle with combo attacks and full defense.


Sapherosth said:


> So what? Lmfao.
> 
> He did the same thing to Hebi Sasuke, and we ALL knew that Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. Unless you're trying to say Itachi was trying to kill Sasuke?


He had to take on a single sasuke not a great nation so he could have gone all out from the very begining .


Sapherosth said:


> Kakashi wondering why Itachi didn't kill him didn't question you a tiny bit?


Nope next panel "kisame take them out".


Sapherosth said:


> The fact that Itachi only has 1 S rank mission didn't question you one bit?


Nope? Please explain your reasonings


Sapherosth said:


> Are you even aware of how devastating a CIVIL WAR can be? Add to that, all the konoha elders agreed to it too, so blaming it on Itachi alone is dumb as hell.


Hiruzen asked him to stall some time.  Every elders itachi and tobi deserve the blame . Itachi had found the common enemy of both conflicting sides. Why did five great nations  collaberate?  They had a common enemy named madara.


Sapherosth said:


> Hiruzen even admitted that he was one of the biggest perpetrator.


As much a i love hiruzen i accept he was the worst hokage.  His weakness led to konoha crush . Uchiha and village couldnot reach a consensus in years and even worse he ket danzo free to do his business


Sapherosth said:


> So what? People are forced to use jutsu to defend. It's normal. If Itachi didn't use Ama to flee, he would use it to kill instead, which at that point in time, Jiraiya has absolutely zero clue about it and would not have been able to counter at all.


Jiraiya could have used yatai kuzushi no jutsu instead of his epic entrance with ladys charm and all.  Itachi was forced to use a jutsu that was taxing and needed to save kisames ass there.  Gai and Anbu coming as backup how long can itachi keep on defending?



Sapherosth said:


> So what if Itachi & Kisame wasn't capable of taking on the entire nation? They can take a shitloads of people down with them, which would be devastating for the leaf.


Problem they both would have lost their lives .


Sapherosth said:


> Even if Jiraiya wasn't there, Itachi would've found a way to convince Kisame to not capture Naruto, just like he did in Part 2.


He himself seperated jiraiya instead of backing off.


Sapherosth said:


> At that point the Uchiha's were already set on revolting. Even if he told them about Obito, what are they gonna do? Become best buddies with the leaf? Itachi had no evidence that Obito was the one who did it, nor can he even prove Obito's existence. Who would believe him?


Obito was the common enemy to both sides. Itachi says he studied obito for long time. He was madara a rouge that belonged to neither  uchiha nor village.  Itachi was a double  agent  who belonged to uchiha clan yet elders fully trusted him.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Doesnot mean he didnot have a killing intent.  Does itachi already know kakashi would see through all his jutsu and even save kurenai?



Er hello? Itachi was a Konoha spy. Why would he kill Konoha shinobi? Jesus christ, it's not that hard to comprehend. 

Itachi knows Kakashi has the sharingan and was capable - Not that hard to think he would know about Kakashi's skills enough to know he'll survive a few fodder suiton. 




> He had to take on a single sasuke not a great nation so he could have gone all out from the very begining .



Prove Itachi was going all out against Sasuke....go ahead, prove it. 




> Nope next panel "kisame take them out".



Conveniently after Itachi spared Kakashi? 





> Nope? Please explain your reasonings



That 1 S rank mission was to kill the Uchiha clan - ordered by the village elders. 




> Hiruzen asked him to stall some time.  Every elders itachi and tobi deserve the blame . Itachi had found the common enemy of both conflicting sides. Why did five great nations  collaberate?  They had a common enemy named madara.



So, how can Itachi prove Obito's existence? Even if the elders and Uchiha knew, would it take away all the bad stuff Konoha did to Uchiha? 

Use your brain, come on.




> Jiraiya could have used yatai kuzushi no jutsu instead of his epic entrance with ladys charm and all.  Itachi was forced to use a jutsu that was taxing and needed to save kisames ass there.  Gai and Anbu coming as backup how long can itachi keep on defending?



What is your point exactly? That Jiraiya can solo?  



> Problem they both would have lost their lives .



So what? If Itachi was the villain like you said, he would've been happy to lay down his life to complete his mission like Kisame would. 


> He himself seperated jiraiya instead of backing off.



So what?  Doesn't prove that Itachi was serious in capturing Naruto. If he truly wanted to, could've used genjutsu and snatch him away with zero difficulty before Jiraiya even arrived. Instead, he stalled. 



> Obito was the common enemy to both sides. Itachi says he studied obito for long time. He was madara a rouge that belonged to neither  uchiha nor village.  Itachi was a double  agent  who belonged to uchiha clan yet elders fully trusted him.



HOW can Itachi prove Obito's existence? 

Obito doesn't come into Konoha every week to have a catch up with Itachi.


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## GoldGournetChef (Dec 27, 2016)

Jman drops the food cart destroyer on them end of story


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well that's fucking hilarious since Killer Bee nor Roshi turned into skinny dudes after getting their chakra's absorbed. Kisame being skinny had fuck all to do with chakra. He just didn't eat any food. Stealing chakra probably regenerated him, just like how it restored his chest against Killer Bee.
> 
> To even THINK that Samehada turned Kisame skinny by absorbing his chakra is ridiculous.
> 
> ...



Roshi fight was off panel horribly silly example 
Any proof samehada absorbed his chakra ? 
When it can't even absorb itachi fodder Katon without issues 

He possibly didn't absorb all of bee chakra 
Same way during their fight bee didn't pass out from it 
Yet on the island he actually passed out 
Perhaps depends the quantity absorbed 


You still can't explain how it's logical for chakra alone to somehow restore kisame body if it wasn't the lack of chakra that caused it 

How did he survive for weeks without food when even hidan can't (check DB)

Any proof samehada didn't eat during that time considering bee knew it was a sentient alive sword ?

You did when you implied all the rubbish daikodan GG or making daikodan an issue 

Or somehow implying kisame has counters to jiriaya entire arsenal which if he does then he wins in a fight 

Or did you not go through that whole debate with Turrin 

Perhaps read your posts


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Roshi fight was off panel horribly silly example
> Any proof samehada absorbed his chakra ?
> When it can't even absorb itachi fodder Katon without issues
> 
> ...



Killer Bee stated that Kisame absorbed almost all of his chakra yet he didn't turn skinny. It's pretty obvious. 

If Samehada supposedly absorbed more chakra from Kisame than it did from Bee, Kisame would've been too weakened to sneak back and fight. 

Do you not have any common sense? 




> You still can't explain how it's logical for chakra alone to somehow restore kisame body if it wasn't the lack of chakra that caused it



Wow....You've just COMPLETELY ignored my point about Samehada restoring Kisame's torn chest. It's obvious that some flesh would have been restored. 




> How did he survive for weeks without food when even hidan can't (check DB)



How the hell I am I supposed to know? It's pretty obvious there wasn't any food in there. Likewise, a fat guy would last longer than a skinny guy if both were to starve to death. 

Again, pretty common sense. 



> Any proof samehada didn't eat during that time considering bee knew it was a sentient alive sword ?



Wait...why is it up to me to prove that Samehada didn't do it? 

Why don't you prove that Samehada eats anything other than chakra? Lmfao



> You did when you implied all the rubbish daikodan GG or making daikodan an issue
> 
> Or somehow implying kisame has counters to jiriaya entire arsenal which if he does then he wins in a fight
> 
> ...




Me saying Kisame isn't losing to frog stomach doesn't mean he wins all together. 



Stay out of it kid, you're not worth my time.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

Can't believe people actually believe that losing your chakra makes you skinny..... 


What a joke.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Killer Bee stated that Kisame absorbed almost all of his chakra yet he didn't turn skinny. It's pretty obvious.
> 
> If Samehada supposedly absorbed more chakra from Kisame than it did from Bee, Kisame would've been too weakened to sneak back and fight.
> 
> ...



Hilarious coming from such a fail poster 
Claims he lost weight that quickly due to food 
Suddenly gains said weight back from chakra Alone when chakra wasn't the cause of said weight loss 

Go cry somewhere else 

Restoring damage and feeding the body to gain back muscle mass and body fat would be quite different or are you saying tsunade can do without eating for weeks then suddenly use byakuyo to gain back all lost nutrients ?

You have never been worth mine don't bother replying troll


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

Jugo shrunk in size due to somehow giving his flesh and loosing chakra 
 that's possible but one can't magically loose weight due to chakra in a world where an immortal can still die if he doesn't eat


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## Dr. White (Dec 27, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Very obvious indeed
> Kisame take them out
> Seperates jiraiya from naruto instead of backing off.  Does nothing when kisame was ready to cut narutos leg
> friend


Uhm yeah do you know what the hell undercover means? Itachi can't blow his cover under Obito's right hand man by making obvious motions to save Konoha allies lmao. He has to play the field which he obviously did and the databook confirmed. Funny how Kakashi and Kisame note ITachi could have killed Kakashi yet he didn't, and funny how right after Itachi tells Kisame to kill Kakashi, Gai shows up...As if Kakashi didn't already know enough the moment he took a team out to follow them and Itacih too his hat off 



> Had kisame and Itachi gained more attention they would have to take on an entire nation that so they were obviously avoiding trouble for their sake.


I agree but my point is with such intimate knowledge on Konoha he could have done more damage. Kakuzu and Hidan also were going to go striaght for Konoha.



>


Yes that's my whole point. He was obviously holding back from killing Kurenai given he has rounded Bee via sitraction and blitzed Oro before he could Kai from a binding genjutsu. Itachi is obviously tiers faster...

It's like comparing Akatsuku cloak Itachi and Edo Itachi in Naruto storm gameplay. The former walks slowly and stands to do jutsu, whle the latter is much more active. Itachi was clearly fighting no where near his full potential.

Itachi likely knew Kakashi was close given the clone feint, and he didn't explode it until Kakashi got out of the water, grabbed kurenai, and ran. All while Itachi sat there standing in ffront of the explosion passively with his water wall 

Edo Itachi attmepted an ambush immediately after using a katon to block LOS and replacing himself with a clone to hold Nagato and make it seem like he never moved. When Nagato summoned ITachi immediately rounded bee and used a close range katon to injrue and obscure genjutsu attempt.

No where even near close the same level of efficiency or activity.



> He used every thing against kakashi
> decoy
> clone and 3 tomoe gen or doubt would have worked against kakashi with sharingan


Please compare his autopilot self to that fight with the konoha jonin. There are clear and stark differences, so much so that I'm fine with the above being enough proof. 



> Tobi when fighting with all konoha ninjas could have easily taken them all out but he didnot does that mean tobi was on side of konoha?


What the fuck lmao? Itachi was fighting a 2v3 with Ninja who obviously coudl blow his cover and were threatning. If Itachi was written to be a stone cold killer he would have not held back at all lmao, he would have "shown" all the potential his got from killing the clan and raped them. He clearly held back and the story is littered with hints of him actually being good in combo with the databook/.





> No one knew kisames Itachis or Akatsukis true ambition except for they were collecting tailed beast.


lmao that is clearly not what the databook is referring too  It's specifically referring to Itachis true intentions about the slaughter and joning akatsuki hence the later "for someone who just cut all ties to humanity, why is he so quick to join a new organization?" . Hmmm maybe to spy on it?





> A so call intelligent uchiha finds out a  but doesnot to convey his status to village nor his clan which could have given both sides a common enemy and common ground but let me ask him to wipe out the clan


Uhm yeah he couldn't exactly up and leave Kisame to take a lone trip to Konoha lmao. We have no idea how Itachi was aiding Konoha bar throwing missions and keeping Konoha from invasion per his and Obito's contract. Doesn't invaludate the fact that Itachi spied confirmed directly by Hiruzen himself lmao.



> Let me kill all the innocents the rice cracker elders and become a pacifist. The fact that a proud clan has no innocents  except sasuke says a lot of things.  Maybe every uchiha except mikoto and fugaku were infertile . To hide that fact says a lot of stuffs.


This is just you being bltantly bias and constructing a shit argument to try and justify it.

Itachi killed the innocents because Danzo made him. Itachi was choosing to save Konoha but had to commit evil in order to accomplish it. Not only was he doing it for Konoha to save lives in the fight (both against the uchiha and other countires), but also so they could keep their name clean. There was no option to save anyone but Sasuke. Even when Danzo brought up killing everyone in front of Itachi Hiruzen did jackshit but tell him not to speak like that in front of Itachi. 

Danzo offered him a way to be a hero in the shadows, and also save Sasuke as he knew Sasuke being his fucking brother would cause great complications to the slaughter. Itachi doing it from the inside was the most efficient means for Konoha practically and in namesake.



> war: Hidden leaf was attacked multiple times by tobi,  orochimaru ,pain and heck even uchiha were wiped out was there any war??.


Tobi attack was an isolated event in one night. Not an ongoing civil war.

Orochimaru did attack with another village so that's a stupid example.

Pain was only allowed to attack Konoha after Itachi died per Obito's mouth. So once again....



> Itachi had used his ms twice and then forced to use it one more time
> Itachis ms was said to be a double edged sword  and itachi himself says it was exhausting.  So to fight with jiraiya and gai coming as a backup+ getting attention meaning more shinobi(anbu+danzo) to come it was in their best interest to retreat.  Their plan was to go quite about their business but it failed when jiraiya came.  They werenot capable of taking on a entire nation if the fight dragged on.


That's BS. Only gai was on his way because he was there to fight them originally. They weren't even in Konoha. Also it's BS because by Itachi's own fake explanation "any amount of backup would have been useless". Kisame could have dealt with the fodder (not including gai obviously) by himself. 

Once again there is direct, indirect, and secondary canon proof of Itachi's actual character being good.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> How would Roshi make Kisame more powerful?
> 
> Roshi is a lava style user and his body is fully covered in lava/magma, and I highly doubt that Samehada was the key to Kisame's victory considering it's weak to extreme heat. Kisame most likely won using his suiton, not Samehada.
> 
> ...


V1/V2 Chakra Cloaks.

He did mention it was difficult due to the nature of elemental fusions I remember. Samehada can absorb the fire style, but it doesn't like to, not that it is overtly weak against it. I'm assuming Kisame had set up his water-dome at some point by ripping through V1/V2 cloaks before Roshi set up his magma cloak and solo'd Roshi eventually.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> V1/V2 Chakra Cloaks.
> 
> He did mention it was difficult due to the nature of elemental fusions I remember. Samehada can absorb the fire style, but it doesn't like to, not that it is overtly weak against it. I'm assuming Kisame had set up his water-dome at some point by ripping through V1/V2 cloaks before Roshi set up his magma cloak and solo'd Roshi eventually.



Are you sure that Roshi has access to V1/V2 cloaks though?

When he was controlled by Obito, Son was bounded by the rods and was most likely forced to provide chakra/cooperate. Last time I checked, Son and Roshi weren't on good terms when they were alive.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Bonly (Dec 27, 2016)

Kisame thought V2 might be Bijuu Mode. If he wasn't sure then that means he didn't see either one in his fight with Roshi meaning that the most Roshi used would've been V1.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

It's likely all Roshi had was yoton chakra mode 
and some basic lava style 
V2 unless bijuu takes over won't happen as we know Roshi wasn't a perfect Jin 

Kisame finding Roshi tough actually says more about his standing than anything 

As stated by himself he is stronger the stronger his opponent is 

What he failed to mention was the more chakra reliant the enemy is the stronger he gets


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## Turrin (Dec 28, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> So you do admit that match ups play a huge factor. So why is it so hard to admit that Jiraiya was just a bad match up for Konan, not that he's far superior than her? Using the whole Konan being useless in that battle as a case for Kisame also being useless is ridiculous.


Match up is a factor, but as I've already explained the situations are different. Kisame did not humiliate B. He had difficulty with B and ended up using some of his best techniques; and his fusion form. On-top of this the author felt the need to give Kisame the additional advantages of B not being able to use his strongest form and having to protect Sabo & Ponta (he also had the intel advantage too). Kisame had multiple advantages, not just match.

In comparison, Jiraiya just had the match up advantage, and it's not even like Jiraiya's main style is Oil Ninjutsu and he used some rare Oil technique, he used a basic C-Rank Oil Technique and other Basic Ninjutsu to fodderize Konan w/ no difficulty, in his Base form no less. 

We've seen characters with similar match up advantages, and they did not stomp. Sasuke had a similar major advantage against Deidara's Jutsu, and he did not stomp Deidara with his Basic Raiton flow, he had a hard match and had to use some very high level Raiton Ninjutsu (Chidori Variants) to eventually prevail with high difficulty. We've seen Gengetsu hold the exact same advantage against Gaara, and ultimately Gaara overcame.

My point being that there is very clearly a tremendous gap between Jiraiya and Konan, for Kishimoto to allow Jiraiya to punk Konan so hard. Now I will agree that match up made a difference, which is why I said in Konan's case Jiriaya was able to easily corner her with Basic Ninjutsu, while in Kisame's case he had use one of his strongest techniques (in base), Toad Stomach, to corner him. So it's not like he'd fodder fuck Kisame as hard as he did Konan.

But this point doesn't even matter, why? Because Pan countered Jiraiya's Oil for Konan, so at that point she could have stayed and helped, but Pain still told her to GTFO. Why? Because even though Pain could deal with Jiraiya's Oil for Konan, the effort of having to worry about protecting Konan throughout the match wouldn't be worth what Konan could bring to the table, because her level was too far off from Jiraiya's. It's the same thing with Kisame, he's not bringing enough to the table to offset the effort Itachi would have to endure to save his ass from the cross fire.



> Killer Bee protecting those two doesn't stop him from utlizing his other small scale techs like V1/V2 though. Both of which are troublesome to deal with. Roshi pushed Kisame to a high-diff, while Kisame getting his chest torn apart by Killer Bee called it a low-diff fight.


Protecting those two stopped B from using his strongest form. It also allowed Kisame to absorb his second V2 usage. So it heavily limited his performance in general. 

And I don't remember Kisame saying his fight against B was low diff, care to post a scan. Not saying it didn't happen, but I don't recall this at all.



> Using your logic, Jiraiya already had trouble with 4 tails Naruto alone, and he nearly died subduing one. Kisame low-diffed someone who's superior to 4 tails which nearly killed Jiraiya.


1) I don't agree that V2-B > KN4, KN4 has way better feats and Kyuubi has enough hype to support KN4 being > V2-B, as 50% Kyuubi was stated equal to all 8 of the other Bijuu Combined by Itachi

2) Kisame had multiple major advantages over B, that Jiraiya did not have against KN4

3) Though we don't know the circumstance completely, it seems likely that Jiraiya was heavily disadvantage against KN4. Not only is it strongly implied Naruto's transformation into KN4, came as a sudden surprise during Naruto's training with Jiraiya, so he was likely taken off guard. Jiraiya would not have wanted to hurt his pupil or his pupil to be hurt by the transformation (taken over by Kyuubi or permanently damaged by the shroud's properties), so he'd be forced to act fast and take risks he otherwise would not, this is likely why we see Jiraiya in Base at the end of the battle, because he likely could not afford to take time to enter Sage-Mode. This ontop of trying to fight KN4 w/o hurting Naruto.


So imo, Jiraiya took on a superior enemy while heavily disadvantaged. While Kisame heavily advantaged took on an inferior enemy.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 28, 2016)

Agree to disagree.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 28, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Are you sure that Roshi has access to V1/V2 cloaks though?
> 
> When he was controlled by Obito, Son was bounded by the rods and was most likely forced to provide chakra/cooperate. Last time I checked, Son and Roshi weren't on good terms when they were alive.


I'm not.
I was under the impression that they were all able to, I know Yugito went full BM and then in the War Arc they were V1/V2.
It's possible that he can't but it doesn't change the overall point though, whatever mode he was in, likely got absorbed.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 28, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I'm not.
> I was under the impression that they were all able to, I know Yugito went full BM and then in the War Arc they were V1/V2.
> It's possible that he can't but it doesn't change the overall point though, whatever mode he was in, likely got absorbed.



It changes the point.

It means you think Samehada can absorb Roshi's Magma mode. A shit ton of magma at that, since Jins have huge volumes of chakra to begin with.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 28, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It changes the point.
> 
> It means you think Samehada can absorb Roshi's Magma mode. A shit ton of magma at that, since Jins have huge volumes of chakra to begin with.


Lava chakra mode is probably not as potent in the waterdome


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## Hazuki (Dec 28, 2016)

i just want to say something quite logic
even if itachi wasn't here for real fight that won't change the result

-itachi said that* himself and kisame would have too much trouble and might have DIE against jiraiya alone *

*fews hours after , itachi and kisame almost DIE *if it wasn't for amaterasu ( one of the the stronger jutsu of itachi ms)
(it doens't matter if itachi want or not kill jiraiya , he was forced to use amaterasu his strongest offensive jutsu just to escape death from one jutsu of base jiraiya )

so what itachi said was logic ? YES


-itachi and kisame are both of them *akatsuki members *
jiraiya had *the pottential to beat pain* ( according and admit by pain himself),* the LEADER of akatsuki  *( who is the *STRONGEST among all its members *)

so what itachi said was logic ? YES

i still think that among akatsuki and expect the leaders)  only itachi can be a trouble for jiraiya , and no matter what member can come it won't change the end of the fight  as itachi said


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## Blaze Release (Dec 28, 2016)

Not going to bother with that statement because it can be interpreted in many ways.
i have lost count tbh.
What is interesting is how people conveniently try to dismiss Kisame's strength.
For a start Jiraiya considers Akatsuki to be his level, when he compares the potential threat of them in relation to suna being able to stop them to himself

here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...

Anyway from my understanding Kisame's appears to be a ninja who appreciates hype or titles.
If you do not hold a title or have no hype to your name, he completely dismisses you. Likewise he also likes to me acknowledged. He bases an opponents strength off their hype/title regardless of whether he has seen them in action.

I can go into detail, but ill make it quick.

*Spoiler*: _Kisame_ 



Part 1 his first introduction. He quickly introduces himself to kurenai and Asuma, not wanting to be pushed aside.
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...

He later acknowledges Kakashi's moniker
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...

He later dismisses Gai, as Gai has no real moniker or hype about himself
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...

If you noticed through out their encounters, Gai unknowingly always pissees Kisame off as he never remembers him.
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...

Kisam upon hearing of Orochimaru's death. Although he admits the person who killed Oro have been special, he quickly congratulates Itachi for Sasuke's strength -
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...

During the flash back of the first meeting between himself and itachi, he introduces himself and acknowledges Itachi's past. 




Kisame said what he said taking into account the Sannin title and not because he has seen Jiraiya, ever in action. However when they did eventually meet, there was nothing like fear and infact was like the barrier between jiraiya/naruto and Itachi/Sasuke and it was after naruto run towards itachi/sasuke did naruto cause a diversion and jiraiya managed to execute his technique. Ill admit that whilst judging by his reaction to the toad stomach technique wasn't convincing, he immediately questioned why a retreat was necessary, baring in mind that it was Itachi who called Kisame to follow him
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...
here is minato with this "trajectory" nonsense you claim he has never done...

The idea that Kisame especially from what we have seen from him in part 2 is going to get one shotted Like Konan is laughable and in fact i see him giving jiraiya alot of trouble in a neutral scenario where there are no hiding places for jiraiya to use his gorilla warfare tactics in order to initiate sm. And yes Jiraiya will need sm to defeat Kisame, thinking otherwise and you are having a laugh.

As for those trying to downplay is feat of defeating Bee, there is no excuse.
His abilities made him if i remember correctly the best in akatsuki for capturing jinchurcki's and we saw this. The little handicap Bee had with not being able to go bijuu mode isn't enough and i suspect daikodan to be a perfect counter for the dama.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 28, 2016)

Ablaze said:


> Not going to bother with that statement because it can be interpreted in many ways.
> i have lost count tbh.
> What is interesting is how people conveniently try to dismiss Kisame's strength.
> For a start Jiraiya considers Akatsuki to be his level, when he compares the potential threat of them in relation to suna being able to stop them to himself
> ...






Finally, someone who gets it.


Learned something new as well - Didn't notice that Jiraiya compared the Akatsuki's to himself, and then the next panel we're shown Sasori/Deidara. I wonder what Kishi was trying to say....


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## Jossaff (Dec 28, 2016)

Unpopular opinion but the way I see it the 3 are on the same level , if Jiraiya fought any of the 2 he would have a 50/50 chance to win , but toguether they'll just overwhelm him


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## Veracity (Dec 28, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Finally, someone who gets it.
> 
> 
> Learned something new as well - Didn't notice that Jiraiya compared the Akatsuki's to himself, and then the next panel we're shown Sasori/Deidara. I wonder what Kishi was trying to say....



The Akatsuki vary in strength though. From Hidan to Itachi. A vague statement like that surely doesn't mean members like Deidara and Sasori are Sannin Level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 29, 2016)

Veracity said:


> The Akatsuki vary in strength though. From Hidan to Itachi. A vague statement like that surely doesn't mean members like Deidara and Sasori are Sannin Level.




How can you say it's vague when the next page, we see Kishi showing us Sasori and Deidara. 







It's absolutely clear that Jiraiya's statement was about Akatsuki, but Kishi went out of his way to show us these 2 within the Akatsuki right after Jiraiya said it. How would you interpret it differently?


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2016)

So Jiraiya being compared to the combined abilities of 2 Akatsuki members, both of which are stronger than Kisame (w/o massive chakra absorbed), somehow means Kisame himself is close to Jiraiya's level


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 29, 2016)

The only gripe I have is saying Jiraiya is above the Akatsuki pairs, I think he's legitimately above all Akatsuki members bar the top trio but any time people say he'd beat a pair really makes wonder if they were paying attention to the manga.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> So *Jiraiya being compared to the combined abilities of 2 Akatsuki members,* both of which are stronger than Kisame (w/o massive chakra absorbed), somehow means Kisame himself is close to Jiraiya's level




When was he compared to the "combined abilities" of 2 Akatsuki members? 

He specifically said "someone like me", indicating he's talking about them individually.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> When was he compared to the "combined abilities" of 2 Akatsuki members?
> 
> He specifically said "someone like me", indicating he's talking about them individually.


Actually just looked up the Viz translation and it has nothing to do with Strength, it only has to do with getting in undetected:
never said something like this isn't possible

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> The only gripe I have is saying Jiraiya is above the Akatsuki pairs, I think he's legitimately above all Akatsuki members bar the top trio but any time people say he'd beat a pair really makes wonder if they were paying attention to the manga.


It honestly has nothing to do with it being a pair or not, it all has to do with the strength of the dominant member.

Jiraiya vs Pain + Konan, Konan adds nothing here, which is why she was told to GTFO, Jiraiya would loss because of Pain's superior strength. Or he'd win by having the right knowledge to counter Pain.

Jiraiya vs Itachi + Kisame, Kisame by his own admission & Itachi's adds nothing here, and it would come down to Jiraiya vs Itachi

Jiraiya vs Kakuzu + Hidan, Hidan may add an extra danger of getting Jiriaya's blood, but skill wise he's not going to be the one drawing that blood or adding much extra pressure to Jiraiya here, it will largely be Kakuzu vs Jiraiya, which most people believe Jiriaya has a sold upper hand in

Jiraiya vs Sasori + Deidara - This is the only pair that I feel could beat Jiraiya, because they are a pair.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> It honestly has nothing to do with it being a pair or not, it all has to do with the strength of the dominant member.
> 
> Jiraiya vs Pain + Konan, Konan adds nothing here, which is why she was told to GTFO, Jiraiya would loss because of Pain's superior strength. Or he'd win by having the right knowledge to counter Pain.
> 
> ...


I feel with Kisame as long as we restrict him to just Part 1 and Shouten feats, I agree—but the moment we start considering how he was able to take out Killer Bee, I just feel like Itachi alone is in a greater than/equal to stage when placed against Jiraiya adding any more to equation (no matter how little it contributes, in the grand scheme of things) would make Itachi's time easier. The other thing is his chakra absorption thing will be a large factor in before Jiraiya enters SM.

In a battle against Hidan/Kakuzu w/o any knowledge (just reputation and etc.), I don't know if Jiraiya would come out on top as easy most people have alluded to here and in the past. I'm still wondering how he gets past Domu. While Hidan isn't going to cause any real problems, Kakuzu could grab the blood for him. Jiraiya would be outnumbered with the masks.

I agree on Sasori/Deidara, they really push Jiraiya out of his comfort zone, Deidara is too much of a problem in the air for them to handle it. Sasori's poisons are bad enough to deal with on top of Deidaria's guided C2, it's just too much for Jiraiya I believe.

Overall, I guess I was just trying to say that one of the members in the pair should be able to hold their own against Jiraiya while the author adds in additional support with whatever they contribute. Personally, I don't think that statement holds much water, individually I can see Jiraiya wrecking all of the Akastuki members bar the top trio but in 1 vs. 2 scenarios, not as much anymore.


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## Saru (Dec 29, 2016)

I'm pretty sure that Itachi and Kisame were talking about the Kyuubi's Jinchuriki, not Jiraiya, but this was an interesting mix of opinions nonetheless.

Baroxio thoroughly explained my take on things.


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## Veracity (Dec 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> How can you say it's vague when the next page, we see Kishi showing us Sasori and Deidara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All that shows is that Jirayia is on the level of an Akatsuki member. Which is true because he's between the level of Hidan and Pain lol. Sasori and Deidara being shown next was pivotal to the plot not an indication that they are on Jirayia's level. Jirayia was speaking about the organization as a whole when he made that statement. Was kishi suppose to make Itachi and Kisame attack Sana so that statement could hold merit? Naw the entire premise of your argument is a stretch.


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## Icegaze (Dec 29, 2016)

As to jiriaya vs kakuzu and hidan 
And getting through domu 
Why would a sage Enhanced attack not work 
Senjutsu > ninjutsu generally as such you would tbink it could work 

Kakuzu also can't always have domu on 

Sound genjutsu straight up ignores that 

And then he can be trapped in gourd prison 

So jiriaya taking those 2 out is rather simply 

@Ryuzaki


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## Turrin (Dec 30, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I feel with Kisame as long as we restrict him to just Part 1 and Shouten feats, I agree—but the moment we start considering how he was able to take out Killer Bee.


If this was a fair fight i'd agree, but Kisame being able to take out B was due to circumstance and nothing more.



> , I just feel like Itachi alone is in a greater than/equal to stage when placed against Jiraiya adding any more to equation (no matter how little it contributes, in the grand scheme of things) would make Itachi's time easier.


Depends, if what Kisame contributes is enough to offset the effort Itachi would need to expend to prevent Kisame from being killed in the cross fire. I'd say it is not, and Kisame / Itachi seem to agree.



> The other thing is his chakra absorption thing will be a large factor in before Jiraiya enters SM.


I don't think it will be, Jiraiya has many moves that wouldn't be easy for Kisame to absorb. In their one canonical clash in the hall way it was a complete non-factor due to the Jutsu Jiraiya used, to give one example.



> In a battle against Hidan/Kakuzu w/o any knowledge (just reputation and etc.), I don't know if Jiraiya would come out on top as easy most people have alluded to here and in the past. I'm still wondering how he gets past Domu. While Hidan isn't going to cause any real problems, Kakuzu could grab the blood for him. Jiraiya would be outnumbered with the masks.


I don't think it will be easy, but I do think that most off the difficulty Jiraiya faces will be due to Kakuzu, not Hidan. And I don't think Hidan adds enough to change the outcome of the fight, at least not under neutral conditions.



> I agree on Sasori/Deidara, they really push Jiraiya out of his comfort zone, Deidara is too much of a problem in the air for them to handle it. Sasori's poisons are bad enough to deal with on top of Deidaria's guided C2, it's just too much for Jiraiya I believe.


I think Jiraiya could still beat them, if he manages to get into SM, as once he's in SM he can divide their attention pretty effectively through using SM-KB, and SM-Jiraiya has some pretty powerful AOE Techniques to take them down at the same time. However they are the only team, where I'd give them significantly better odds of winning together than individually.



> Overall, I guess I was just trying to say that one of the members in the pair should be able to hold their own against Jiraiya while the author adds in additional support with whatever they contribute. Personally, I don't think that statement holds much water, individually I can see Jiraiya wrecking all of the Akastuki members bar the top trio but in 1 vs. 2 scenarios, not as much anymore.


I just don't think that's what Kishimoto wants the take away to be. Look at past examples. In PI, was stated by both himself and Itachi to add virtually nothing, and did in-fact add nothing in the hallway. Then in PII, Konan added nothing, and was told to GTFO by Pain. Konan also added nothing when Pain squared off against Naruto and stayed out of the battle, to name a non Jiriaya related example, but a character of a similar level. Then in the one time where the Akatsuki pair (Kakuzu & Hidan) tried to fight together, Hidan did not add much in the way of helping Kakuzu, in-fact an argument could be made that he ended up being a determent to Kakuzu. 

So i'm fairly confident that against stronger enemies the weaker partner really doesn't help the stronger one all that much. The exception being Sasori and Deidara, who are much closer in strength than other pairs.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> If this was a fair fight i'd agree, but Kisame being able to take out B was due to circumstance and nothing more. Depends, if what Kisame contributes is enough to offset the effort Itachi would need to expend to prevent Kisame from being killed in the cross fire. I'd say it is not, and Kisame / Itachi seem to agree.


I do agree about the circumstance with Killer Bee but since he possess a potential to fluctuate with his opponent, I still do think Water Dome + Kisamehada spells disaster for Jiraiya. That's why I believe he should be able to tangle with Jiraiya (Base) prior to senjutsu more and even when Jiraiya is in SM he provides an easy counter to is enhanced fire jutsu with just sheer volume (water-based ninjutsu). Things like: Bakusui Shoha, Dai Bakusui Shoha Daikodan are all techniques I see serving as great counters for Goemon, (other various katons) and etc. It kind of goes understated sometimes but Itachi really doesn't have a solid defense for Jiraiya's fire combinations (i.e. Toad Oil + Katon or Goeman).



Turrin said:


> I don't think it will be, Jiraiya has many moves that wouldn't be easy for Kisame to absorb. In their one canonical clash in the hall way it was a complete non-factor due to the Jutsu Jiraiya used, to give one example.


He can absorb fire-style and earth style (yomi numa), good chance he'll get caught since he cannot absorb it and Samehada can just absorb that. The fire style is something he can outright counter especially as long as Itachi is there, he'd have the time to build up his chakra and use his technique.



Turrin said:


> I don't think it will be easy, but I do think that most off the difficulty Jiraiya faces will be due to Kakuzu, not Hidan. And I don't think Hidan adds enough to change the outcome of the fight, at least not under neutral conditions.


If he has no knowledge, I'd say the degree of difficult is high as once he's sort of put them down he expects them to stay dead (i.e. Pain) so he can be blindsided. Hidan is essentially just a diversionary body and likely could be dealt with a clone. But once he reaches SM, I guess I really overlooked Frog Song.



Turrin said:


> I think Jiraiya could still beat them, if he manages to get into SM, as once he's in SM he can divide their attention pretty effectively through using SM-KB, and SM-Jiraiya has some pretty powerful AOE Techniques to take them down at the same time. However they are the only team, where I'd give them significantly better odds of winning together than individually.


I just think he'll get out done by volume (Deidara making several C2s in succession). He's tougher to fight but not invulnerable also part of me thinks that he is despite his showing of ranged jutsu, he's still someone that likes to get in close. I think these guys fighting style really keeps him at bay. 



Turrin said:


> I just don't think that's what Kishimoto wants the take away to be. Look at past examples. In PI, was stated by both himself and Itachi to add virtually nothing, and did in-fact add nothing in the hallway. Then in PII, Konan added nothing, and was told to GTFO by Pain. Konan also added nothing when Pain squared off against Naruto and stayed out of the battle, to name a non Jiriaya related example, but a character of a similar level. Then in the one time where the Akatsuki pair (Kakuzu & Hidan) tried to fight together, Hidan did not add much in the way of helping Kakuzu, in-fact an argument could be made that he ended up being a determent to Kakuzu.
> 
> So i'm fairly confident that against stronger enemies the weaker partner really doesn't help the stronger one all that much. The exception being Sasori and Deidara, who are much closer in strength than other pairs.


I do agree with the intent but I feel like Kishi kind of shot himself in the foot by making some of them too strong. Overall I agree with your Deidara/Sasori statement, but I do believe Kisame/Itachi could put up an equally challenging front together.


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## Turrin (Dec 30, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I do agree about the circumstance with Killer Bee but since he possess a potential to fluctuate with his opponent, I still do think Water Dome + Kisamehada spells disaster for Jiraiya.


Why?



> and even when Jiraiya is in SM he provides an easy counter to is enhanced fire jutsu with just sheer volume (water-based ninjutsu). Things like: Bakusui Shoha, Dai Bakusui Shoha Daikodan are all techniques I see serving as great counters for Goemon, (other various katons) and etc.It kind of goes understated sometimes but Itachi really doesn't have a solid defense for Jiraiya's fire combinations (i.e. Toad Oil + Katon or Goeman).


Itachi's Counter is Susano'o. 



> He can absorb fire-style and earth style (yomi numa), good chance he'll get caught since he cannot absorb it and Samehada can just absorb that.


I doubt Samehada can absorb Jiraiya's more powerful Katon Techniques, give his reaction to Itachi's casual Grand-Fireball. I also don't think Samehada can absorb Yomi Numa, for the same reason Madara's HG-Realm couldn't absorb Gaara's Sand, because Yomi Numa makes use of a preexisting source, rather than creating the element entirely out of chakra. Chakra absorption can't absorb physical material.

Kisame can counter most of Jiraiya's Fire-Style with Suiton Ninjutsu, i'll give you that, but the only Fire-Style technique I think Itachi is in any danger from would be Jiraiya's large Katon + Oil Combinations with Bunta, and I believe those are too large for Kisame to counter with his Suiton, especially if he's not hoped up on Bijuu chakra and doesn't have an ocean at his back.



> If he has no knowledge, I'd say the degree of difficult is high as once he's sort of put them down he expects them to stay dead (i.e. Pain) so he can be blindsided. Hidan is essentially just a diversionary body and likely could be dealt with a clone. But once he reaches SM, I guess I really overlooked Frog Song.


The problem is nether really makes as effective use off the blindside as Pain. When people thought Hidan was dead, he didn't even ambush them afterwards he just announced that he was alive right out in the open. Kakuzu ambushed, but all he did was kick Kakashi. So I don't see a Pain situation happening against Jiraiya, even with no knowledge. And if an ambush was going to make a difference, it would be Kakuzu's ambush that would have that chance, not Hidan's. 



> I just think he'll get out done by volume (Deidara making several C2s in succession). He's tougher to fight but not invulnerable also part of me thinks that he is despite his showing of ranged jutsu, he's still someone that likes to get in close. I think these guys fighting style really keeps him at bay.


I could see these two winning no doubt, I just can also see Jiraiya winning, albeit with High to extreme difficulty.



> I do agree with the intent but I feel like Kishi kind of shot himself in the foot by making some of them too strong. Overall I agree with your Deidara/Sasori statement, but I do believe Kisame/Itachi could put up an equally challenging front together.


I don't think Kishimoto did shoot himself in the foot, I think he was careful to only show the weaker Akatsuki members like Kisame and Konan being useful against stronger Ninja like B and Obito, under very selective circumstances.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 2, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Why?


I feel like he's too overmatched in Waterdome Kisamehada.



Turrin said:


> Itachi's Counter is Susano'o.


Yeah, but jumping to Susano'o is foolish if Kisame can provide a viable defense though. It just increases Itachi's longevity in the match, it pushes him to resort to his MS much later than much sooner.



Turrin said:


> I doubt Samehada can absorb Jiraiya's more powerful Katon Techniques, give his reaction to Itachi's casual Grand-Fireball. I also don't think Samehada can absorb Yomi Numa, for the same reason Madara's HG-Realm couldn't absorb Gaara's Sand, because Yomi Numa makes use of a preexisting source, rather than creating the element entirely out of chakra. Chakra absorption can't absorb physical material.


It'll suck the doton, I don't know about the Goemon, but Kisame doesn't really need to absorb the fire techs as much he can just defend against them with water jutsu. I'm just saying that Samehada can absorb most reg. fire techniques Jiraiya uses if he wanted to. Yomi Numa will get sucked, but the physical aspect of it will remain. So I can see Kisame not getting sunk but still he'd be trapped somewhat until he broke himself free.



Turrin said:


> Kisame can counter most of Jiraiya's Fire-Style with Suiton Ninjutsu, i'll give you that, but the only Fire-Style technique I think Itachi is in any danger from would be Jiraiya's large Katon + Oil Combinations with Bunta, and I believe those are too large for Kisame to counter with his Suiton, especially if he's not hoped up on Bijuu chakra and doesn't have an ocean at his back.


Kisame's role is supplemental offense and defense, he's not going to beat Jiraiya but his support should definitely come in handy for Itachi. Kisame just makes it that much easier for Itachi to operate.



Turrin said:


> The problem is nether really makes as effective use off the blindside as Pain. When people thought Hidan was dead, he didn't even ambush them afterwards he just announced that he was alive right out in the open. Kakuzu ambushed, but all he did was kick Kakashi. So I don't see a Pain situation happening against Jiraiya, even with no knowledge. And if an ambush was going to make a difference, it would be Kakuzu's ambush that would have that chance, not Hidan's.


Yeah of course, but Hidan is still another body to worry about.



Turrin said:


> I could see these two winning no doubt, I just can also see Jiraiya winning, albeit with High to extreme difficulty.


Yeah def agree.



Turrin said:


> I don't think Kishimoto did shoot himself in the foot, I think he was careful to only show the weaker Akatsuki members like Kisame and Konan being useful against stronger Ninja like B and Obito, under very selective circumstances.


I don't think you can look at the manga and say that Kishi didn't shoot himself, given that Itachi's statement was in Part 1, but Kishi hadn't fully drawn out the concept of any of the Akatsuki.[/QUOTE]


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## Turrin (Jan 3, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> I feel like he's too overmatched in Waterdome Kisamehada.


That doesn't really explain why you feel he's outmatched tho.

I don't think Waterdome is a big deal, for Jiraiya because I don't think under normal circumstances Kisame can make one anywhere near that big, and I think Jiraiya would just summon Bunta, who given his sized would easily hope out of the dome to safety. If not Jiriaya is no slouch in underwater combat, he fights with aquatic Toads, so skillfully that even the entire Pain-Rikudo couldn't reach him when he used Toad-Gourd and he defeated one of the Paths with this technique while down an arm and up against all 6; A FAR superior enemy then Kisame.



> Yeah, but jumping to Susano'o is foolish if Kisame can provide a viable defense though. It just increases Itachi's longevity in the match, it pushes him to resort to his MS much later than much sooner.


Itachi can use Suiton too, so the only Katons that Itachi probably can't counter w/o Susano'o are Jiraiya massive combinations with Bunta's Oil. And I don't think Kisame w/o a shit ton of Bijuu chakra can counter these with his Suitons ether.



> It'll suck the doton, I don't know about the Goemon, but Kisame doesn't really need to absorb the fire techs as much he can just defend against them with water jutsu. I'm just saying that Samehada can absorb most reg. fire techniques Jiraiya uses if he wanted to. Yomi Numa will get sucked, but the physical aspect of it will remain. So I can see Kisame not getting sunk but still he'd be trapped somewhat until he broke himself free.


I doesn't seem to work that way. If it did Gaara's Sand would have collapsed and fallen offer Madara like normal sand, when Madara was using HG-Realm, instead the Sand remained under the control of Gaara's Chakra. So it doesn't seem that easy to absorb chakra when physical sources are used as a medium.



> Kisame's role is supplemental offense and defense, he's not going to beat Jiraiya but his support should definitely come in handy for Itachi. Kisame just makes it that much easier for Itachi to operate.


Don't get me wrong, I think Kisame will probably help support Itach somewhat. However I simply don't think the support he has to offer outweighs the effort Itachi will have to put in to keep him alive. Kisame saving Itachi some chakra here and there by countering one of Jiraiya's Jutsu, doesn't add up much in the long run if Itachi must expend extra chakra and effort to save Kisame.



> Yeah of course, but Hidan is still another body to worry about.


And the manga has shown that just having more bodies doesn't necessarily add up to much when there is a huge level disparity. Basically again while I see Hidan helping Kakuzu a bit, it will be offset by Kakuzu having to save Hidan's ass. So I don't think at the end of the day were going to see Kakuzu loosing to Jiraiya w/o Hidan, but likely winning with Hidan.



> I don't think you can look at the manga and say that Kishi didn't shoot himself, given that Itachi's statement was in Part 1, but Kishi hadn't fully drawn out the concept of any of the Akatsuki.


I think Kishimoto clearly had in mind that most Akatsuki members would be as strong or stronger than Orochimaru. Given the fact that thee first Akatsuki members mentioned were, Itachi, who was stated to be stronger than Orochimaru and Orochimaru himself. Jiraiya also stated in PI, that there were more troublesome individuals in Akatsuki then Orochimaru.

Even still Kisame was depicted as beneath that level and more close to PI-Kakashi in strength, who was also well beneath that level.

So it's clear that Kishimoto had in mind from the beginning that several Akatsuki members would be >= Orochimaru, while there would be a few that were much weaker then that. And that's exactly what we got with Kisame simply being one of the weaker ones.

Now you can say Kisame was retecon'd to be one of the stronger ones, but I'd ask at what point did this occur and where is the evidence for it ocuring at all? Kisame as off the Uchiha Brothers arc was still talking about how he struggle with Roshi who is nowhere near that level and later talks about how he saw Deidara as SOO powerful, which to me places him at <= Deidara at best, who is in-turn inferior to all other members sans Konan/Hidan.

So the retcon would have needed to happen literally in the Kages-Arc itself when Kishi had him fight B, but where is the evidence to support it even happened in the first place? Kisame performed better from then on, but Kishimoto always gave Kisame highly advantageous circumstances to explain that performance.

To me this would be the same thing as saying Konan got retecon'd due to her performance against Obito. Or Deidara got retecon'd weaker due to his performance against the Ambush Squad. When in realty it's just circumstance.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> Not going to bother with that statement because it can be interpreted in many ways.
> i have lost count tbh.
> What is interesting is how people conveniently try to dismiss Kisame's strength.
> For a start Jiraiya considers Akatsuki to be his level, when he compares the potential threat of them in relation to suna being able to stop them to himself
> ...




Always liked that about the 7SOTM's, most seem to respect hype and portrayal.

And I agree with the majority of your post.

But Suigetsu, even though he hates Kisame, still seems to respect him as his superior, Kisame also seems to respect Suigetsu to some degree. Kisame respects Itachi for his power, and possibly as a friend? They seemed to have the friendliest relations in the Akatsuki, bar Nagato and Konan. Especially when compared to Kakuzu and Hidan, who constantly threaten each other with death.

Suigetsu, even though imo he's Zabuza's superior, still seems to hold him in very high regard.

Even Chojuro respects all of the 7SOTMs.

And people don't seem to take into account that Kisame's statement was made when Kisame was barely a flicker in Kishi's eyes, we saw nothing from Kisame in P1 except his title as a SOTM and Samehada.

P1 Kisame and P2 Kisame are on entirely different levels.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 3, 2017)

Turrin said:


> That doesn't really explain why you feel he's outmatched tho.
> 
> I don't think Waterdome is a big deal, for Jiraiya because I don't think under normal circumstances Kisame can make one anywhere near that big, and I think Jiraiya would just summon Bunta, who given his sized would easily hope out of the dome to safety. If not Jiriaya is no slouch in underwater combat, he fights with aquatic Toads, so skillfully that even the entire Pain-Rikudo couldn't reach him when he used Toad-Gourd and he defeated one of the Paths with this technique while down an arm and up against all 6; A FAR superior enemy then Kisame.


The thing is since we've only seen one instance of it in the manga, I'm giving Kisame the benefit of the doubt and going to assume it's just that when he does it. He's got ridiculous amount of chakra on his own to begin with, so that's the reference point I'm working with. If the match starts in the waterdome, Kisame is much faster in that environment and summoning Bunta and/or other frogs may not workout well for him as they aren't really going to change the 'game', Kisame would be too agile for them. I suppose Jiraiya could use Bunta to escape? But then the match wouldn't be underwater. Jiraiya would have to escape and make Kisame fight on land in order to win.



Turrin said:


> Itachi can use Suiton too, so the only Katons that Itachi probably can't counter w/o Susano'o are Jiraiya massive combinations with Bunta's Oil. And I don't think Kisame w/o a shit ton of Bijuu chakra can counter these with his Suitons ether.


Itachi using suiton doesn't really mean the same thing as Kisame using a suiton though. Kisame is more proficient with water based jutsu and has extensively large scale water-jutsu of all kinds and ranges. Itachi simply doesn't have that and if he's got Kisame with him, it would make more sense to have him use water-style instead of Itachi tiring himself out.



Turrin said:


> I doesn't seem to work that way. If it did Gaara's Sand would have collapsed and fallen offer Madara like normal sand, when Madara was using HG-Realm, instead the Sand remained under the control of Gaara's Chakra. So it doesn't seem that easy to absorb chakra when physical sources are used as a medium.


I don't understand what you mean here, you'll have to clarify this, are you saying that he won't be able to suck the chakra out of the yomi numa (i.e. stop the sinking/stop the rate of sinking)? Because I think he should be able to and then the break the swamp tentacles raping him with his brute strength.



Turrin said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think Kisame will probably help support Itach somewhat. However I simply don't think the support he has to offer outweighs the effort Itachi will have to put in to keep him alive. Kisame saving Itachi some chakra here and there by countering one of Jiraiya's Jutsu, doesn't add up much in the long run if Itachi must expend extra chakra and effort to save Kisame.


It really depends on when and where the saving starts, I don't think Itachi will have to expend energy to save Kisame until after Jiraiya reaches Sage Mode. At which point if Kisame does buy the farm, it's okay because he did all he could to help anyway and Itachi having to save him would actually deter him more than anything.



Turrin said:


> And the manga has shown that just having more bodies doesn't necessarily add up to much when there is a huge level disparity. Basically again while I see Hidan helping Kakuzu a bit, it will be offset by Kakuzu having to save Hidan's ass. So I don't think at the end of the day were going to see Kakuzu loosing to Jiraiya w/o Hidan, but likely winning with Hidan.


Kakuzu does have multiple chakra beasts that could save him and honestly, Kakuzu doesn't suffer from the 'stamina' issue that Itachi does, I feel as if he has 5x his normal chakra capacity (rated at Tier 4.0), this means he's clearly around a 20 or something If we just go by his additional chakra systems.



Turrin said:


> I think Kishimoto clearly had in mind that most Akatsuki members would be as strong or stronger than Orochimaru. Given the fact that thee first Akatsuki members mentioned were, Itachi, who was stated to be stronger than Orochimaru and Orochimaru himself. Jiraiya also stated in PI, that there were more troublesome individuals in Akatsuki then Orochimaru.
> 
> Even still Kisame was depicted as beneath that level and more close to PI-Kakashi in strength, who was also well beneath that level.
> 
> ...


That's the thing I find that Kisame does well is his advantageous nature due to circumstance, as he demonstrated against Roshi, Killer Bee and Might Gai. I find that against Jiraiya (base) he'd be an extensive advantage alongside Itachi, he has a water-ninjutsu advantage, he can freely absorb chakra without consequences and he can use extensively large scale jutsu to keep Jiraiya at bay but I do agree that he becomes a liability after Jiraiya enters SM. Underwater, I give Kisame the edge because it's his natural environment but as most posters have said, Jiraiya can abolish that advantage by just leaving the field, but I don't think that get rids of Kisame's advantage as much as avoiding it. So if Jiraiya had to fight him underwater, he'd lose there, he has to escape the dome to be effective.

As for effective writing, Kishmoto alludes to Jiraiya being more powerful than Itachi/Kisame (and other Akatsuki members) to where we have solid debatable chances for Sasori/Deidara or Itachi/Kisame to be victorious. On top of that, the unique hax techniques for each mid-tier Akatsuki member might be too much for Jiraiya (i.e. Tsukuyomi, Susano'o/Totsuka, C4, C0, Shark Kamehameha, Iron Sand). Itachi (alone) vs  Jiraiya is favored more towards Itachi than it is for Jiraiya. It's hard to put much stock in some of the 1st part statements, at least for me. I felt like these guys were shown to be much more than what they were initially allowed to be perceived.


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