# Naruto's Mode in the Gaiden



## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

EDITED SINCE THREAD CREATION

What kind of Chakra Mode did Naruto use against Shin?


Debate has took many twists and turns, opinions and beliefs have changed, goes on for a while. 

Got merged with a new thread on Page 12.

Would recommend reading at least a fair amount of it before posting if you are new to the thread.
"First few replies are based on the fact that I initially believed the presence of pigmentation in Naruto's SM in the Gaiden meant he didn't have Six Paths Sage Mode anymore; my beliefs has since changed and I no longer believe that."


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## TRN (May 14, 2015)




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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

So let me get this straight Op.

Naruto with only Sage Mode activated means he's lost Six Paths Sage mode.

So does Sasuke only having a Sharingan last chapter mean he lost the Rinnegan?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> So let me get this straight Op.
> 
> Naruto with only Sage Mode activated means he's lost Six Paths Sage mode.
> 
> So does Sasuke only having a Sharingan last chapter mean he lost the Rinnegan?


Even though the manga explicitly said that neither would lose any of their abilities and that Naruto's would just get stronger?

Naruto can vary his mode usages. Its no different than Goku using Super Saiyan when he has Super Saiyan God.


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## Altair21 (May 14, 2015)

Are you talking about because he doesn't look like this in SM:



?


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even though the manga explicitly said that neither would lose any of their abilities and that Naruto's would just get stronger?
> 
> Naruto can vary his mode usages. Its no different than Goku using Super Saiyan when he has Super Saiyan God.



Yea, I know this, and I'm pretty sure OP does too.


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Why do you think Kishi wanted to nerf Naruto?


What if Naruto isn't dipping into his bijū chakra because he doesn't need to?


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## TRN (May 14, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Are you talking about because he doesn't look like this in SM:
> 
> 
> 
> ?




As you can tell he is link with kurama and sm there:ignoramus


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> So let me get this straight Op.
> 
> Naruto with only Sage Mode activated means he's lost Six Paths Sage mode.
> 
> So does Sasuke only having a Sharingan last chapter mean he lost the Rinnegan?


Sasuke still had his Rinnegan in The Last, Naruto didn't have his Six Paths Sage state or Chakra Mode.

Naruto shown that he lost the pigmentation around his eyes when using Senjutsu against Madara, Kaguya and Sasuke.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Sasuke still had his Rinnegan in The Last, Naruto didn't have his Six Paths Sage state or Chakra Mode.
> 
> Naruto shown that he lost the pigmentation around his eyes when using Senjutsu against Madara, Kaguya and Sasuke.



I think you should read Vaatu's post.

Also , if he's not using Six Paths or Biju chakra , why would the pigmentation be gone?


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## TRN (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Sasuke still had his Rinnegan in The Last, Naruto didn't have his Six Paths Sage state or Chakra Mode.
> 
> Naruto shown that he lost the pigmentation around his eyes when using Senjutsu against Madara, Kaguya and Sasuke.



Is he link with kurama in them pic man...it not that hard


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## iJutsu (May 14, 2015)

What would he do to kids with a 6p sage mode? Kids from his village delivering bento. They're not even genin. It's like bringing a tank to fight a fetus.


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## Csdabest (May 14, 2015)

It is a possibility. That When Naruto gave Sasuke the Chakra to end Mugen Tsukiyomi he had lost all the bijuu chakra. Naruto probably has trace amounts of there chakra to communicate with them but probably not enough of it to recreate that form. But Naruto should have 100% Kyuubi Chakra which probably makes him stronger considering that the other bijuu gave him only partial chakras and the other half of the kyuubi still had a shit ton of chakra. Im sure he can probably communicate with them and ask them for chakra when neccessary through Ninshuu.

Also w/ Sasuke kishi is trying to hard to hide his eyes and arms and I think its another red herring. I Would venture that Sasuke finally got full control of the One-Eyed Rinnegan. He Probably will have his left arm back to and is just doing his one-arm itachi thing. He will have his Yin Seal back and the big mystery will be what happened to his Rinnegan. Kishi taking it back to the Sharinagn. lol kishi playin with emotions


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

TRN said:


> Is he link with kurama in them pic man...it not that hard


Erm.... mate


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## Mider T (May 14, 2015)

iJutsu said:


> What would he do to kids with a 6p sage mode? Kids from his village delivering bento. They're not even genin. It's like bringing a tank to fight a fetus.



What if the fetus was John Connor or the anti-christ?


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## Indra (May 14, 2015)

_-Snip-_

Naruto can use lower forms. Already showcased when he used a  V1 cloak. When did gaining Hagoromo's chakra make him lose the ability of going regular Sage Mode?

Literally read the manga.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

You're trying too hard bruh.

Just because he hasn't activated Six Paths mode yet which is proven to need the influence of all 9 Biju, doesn't mean he's lost the ability to tap into it.  Are you trolling now?


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## shade0180 (May 14, 2015)

Naruto can access each mode separately.....

We have seen that multiple times in the war...

there's really no point to this thread..

In the last battle against sauce, Naruto has shown he can use 0-tail mode and use it to block amaterasu...


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## TRN (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Erm.... mate
> [/IMG][/SPOILER]



So you just making up shit as you go?     Naruto has many modes and people in this thread call you out on your shit


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## maupp (May 14, 2015)

Wut? 

This thread doesn't make sense


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Come on guys, use your heads and don't spout such adolescent posts, like "read the manga" when I clearly do and you just don't agree.

Before:


After:


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Come on guys, use your heads and don't spout such adolescent posts, like "read the manga" when I clearly do and you just don't agree.
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...


Good. Now let's play "Count the Bijū."


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

This is getting cringeworthy....


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Vaatu said:


> Good. Now let's play "Count the Bijū."


I guess you could argue that only when he combines Senjutsu with the Chakra of *ALL 9* Bijuu, does the pigmentation disappear. 
But considering the fact he never demonstrated his Six Paths Sage Mode against Toneri, I would argue after using the 9 Bijuu's Chakra to release the Infinite Tsukuyomi, he lost his Six Paths Sage State.


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## Indra (May 14, 2015)

Bruh how do you have manga scans, and still end up wrong?


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Come on guys, use your heads and don't spout such adolescent posts, like "read the manga" when I clearly do and you just don't agree.
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...



There's no need to argue it, because that's exactly whats shown to be happening.


Maybe you should consider Naruto didn't need the rest of the Biju because his base Kyubi  Chakra mode mixed with sage chakra was enough to beat the fodder known as Toneri. The problem you seem to be having is that you can't seem to grasp Naruto preferring to use one of his lesser modes as opposed to going all out.


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> There's no need to argue it, because that's exactly whats shown to be happening.
> 
> 
> Maybe you should consider Naruto didn't need the rest of the Biju because his base Kyubi  Chakra mode mixed with sage chakra was enough to beat the fodder known as Toneri. The problem you seem to be having is that you can't seem to grasp Naruto preferring to use one of his lesser modes as opposed to going all out.


Why would he have an almost even match and risk loosing using lesser modes when he could easily solo in Six Paths Sage Mode?
And considering he has not displaying any of the traits or abilties akin to having the Chakra of all 9 Bijuu since releasing the Infinite Tsukuyomi, it strongly implies he has lost the power, and is simply 100% Kurama's Jinchuuriki; perhaps enough Chakra left of them to communicate with them.


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> It is a possibility. That When Naruto gave Sasuke the Chakra to end Mugen Tsukiyomi he had lost all the bijuu chakra. Naruto probably has trace amounts of there chakra to communicate with them but probably not enough of it to recreate that form. But Naruto should have 100% Kyuubi Chakra which probably makes him stronger considering that the other bijuu gave him only partial chakras and the other half of the kyuubi still had a shit ton of chakra. Im sure he can probably communicate with them and ask them for chakra when neccessary through Ninshuu.


Yeah man, I don't know about 100% BSM Naruto > 50% RSM Naruto, but this is what I'm thinking. Glad to see someone sees what I'm trying to get at without getting offensive.


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## vagnard (May 14, 2015)

Yeah sure. The authour of a shounen manga is gonna depower the main character at the end of the series without any reason...

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Full Power Naruto can blow up the planet.


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> But considering the fact he never demonstrated his Six Paths Sage Mode against Toneri, I would argue after using the 9 Bijuu's Chakra to release the Infinite Tsukuyomi, he lost his Six Paths Sage State.


Basing any argument on the anime is already a losing battle.


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

vagnard said:


> Yeah sure. The authour of a shounen manga is gonna depower the main character at the end of the series without any reason...


Why wouldn't he, at the end of the Manga Naruto was far above Sasuke, unless Sasuke had the 9 Bijuu to back him up. Kishi probably would have liked to have the two for the most part equal after the end.

Also, it makes sense to weaken Naruto, or is Kishi going to bring out another god tier out of nowhere just to give Naruto a challenge.
Or would he just hold him away from every single noteworthy fight post-Chapter 699.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Why would he have an almost even match and risk loosing using lesser modes when he could easily solo in Six Paths Sage Mode?
> And considering he has not displaying any of the traits or abilties akin to having the Chakra of all 9 Bijuu since releasing the Infinite Tsukuyomi, it strongly implies he has lost the power, and is simply 100% Kurama's Jinchuuriki; perhaps enough Chakra left of them to communicate with them.



I don't get it , him not using the advanced mode just simply means he didn't need to.

Why didn't Sasuke use his Rinnegan to teleport to catch that Shin kid before he can escape? Must mean he can't use any of his Rinnegan techs anymore. 

This is the logic you're imploring.  Outta sight outta mind?


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Vaatu said:


> Basing any argument on the anime is already a losing battle.


The Last is cannon, it's not like it's Anime Filler, which is what you seem to be implying.


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## Narutossss (May 14, 2015)

seriously this shit again, why would naruto go into rikudou mode, does he need to nuke a country?


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> I don't get it , him not using the advanced mode just simply means he didn't need to.
> 
> Why didn't Sasuke use his Rinnegan to teleport to catch that Shin kid before he can escape? Must mean he can't use his any of his Rinnegan techs anymore.
> 
> This is the logic you're imploring.  Outta sight outta mind?


That's not the same at all and a terrible comparison.
Toneri was a threat to the whole world and was matching Naruto. Surely Naruto would think, "this fight will drag and may take me a while to win, maybe even risk loosing if I don't go all out."
Shin was some noob kid, reason Sasuke sighed was because "oh great, some fodder is gonna attack me...".


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## Klue (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> The Last is cannon, it's not like it's Anime Filler, which is what you seem to be implying.



Kurama fighting separately from Naruto is canon?

Seriously?


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> The Last is cannon, it's not like it's Anime Filler, which is what you seem to be implying.


Totes "cannon"


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> The Last is cannon, it's not like it's Anime Filler, which is what you seem to be implying.



Bro, if Naruto used Six Paths Sage mode against Toneri, there would be no movie period. 

Chalk it up to plot purposes and move on, you're getting into desperate territory trying to fit this agenda.

Biggest hole in your argument is that Sasuke and Naruto's seals from Hagoromo disappeared well before they even diactivate Tsukiyomi.  So what are you saying , that infinite Tsukiyomi gave Naruto his abilities?


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## Narutossss (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> I don't get it , him not using the advanced mode just simply means he didn't need to.
> 
> Why didn't Sasuke use his Rinnegan to teleport to catch that Shin kid before he can escape? Must mean he can't use any of his Rinnegan techs anymore.
> 
> This is the logic you're imploring.  Outta sight outta mind?


this, sasuke could have used his s/t to catch shin but doesn't mean his rinnegan is gone.


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Klue said:


> Kurama fighting separately from Naruto is canon?
> 
> Seriously?


It's believable because after gaining Hagaromo's Yang Chakra, Naruto's Kurama Avatar did not directly connect to Naruto's Seal like it did before Revived Madara extracted Yang Kurama.


> Before, Naruto had to be connected to his Avatar all the time while using it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## vagnard (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Why wouldn't he, at the end of the Manga Naruto was far above Sasuke, unless Sasuke had the 9 Bijuu to back him up. Kishi probably would have liked to have the two for the most part equal after the end.
> 
> Also, it makes sense to weaken Naruto, or is Kishi going to bring out another god tier out of nowhere just to give Naruto a challenge.
> Or would he just hold him away from every single noteworthy fight post-Chapter 699.



What would be the point?. It's not like Naruto and Sasuke are going to fight again in any case. Their relative powers means shit now... specially when they are still far above everyone else. Kishimoto would need to bring another god tier to give Naruto a challenge even with just Bijuu Mode.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> That's not the same at all and a terrible comparison.
> Toneri was a threat to the whole world and was matching Naruto. Surely Naruto would think, "this fight will drag and may take me a while to win, maybe even risk loosing if I don't go all out."
> Shin was some noob kid, reason Sasuke sighed was because "oh great, some fodder is gonna attack me...".



So, your argument consists of since he didn't use it against Toneri , he doesn't have it? Correct? I think my comparison is very viable in that case because your entire theory is based on your own discomfort of not seeing something happen.


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Vaatu said:


> Totes "cannon"


Typo, don't be so childish.

I would think people would at least consider what I'm presenting as a possibility. But most seem to completely out right refuse my idea as even possible.

I guess we will just wait and see who is proven right, I'd put money on Naruto not using any kind of Six Paths Sage State / Mode for the rest of Naruto based Media, unless the other 8 Bijuu give him more Chakra or something.


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## Klue (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> It's believable because after gaining Hagaromo's Yang Chakra, Naruto's Kurama Avatar did not directly connect to Naruto's Seal like it did before Revived Madara extracted Yang Kurama.



I see no difference between the first half of images and the second. No indication from the author that Naruto was doing something different.

What is this?


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Again, The Sun and Moon seals Hagoromo gave Sasuke and Naruto disappear after they sealed Kaguya and they still had the abilities before dispelling the Tsukiyomi.

Are you saying the Tsukiyomi played a part in Naruto specifically having his abilities granted by the sage and not Sasuke?


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Typo, don't be so childish.


Meh, even if you hadn't made the typo, I would have replied with similar because _The Last_ would still be an anime filler movie.


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> Again, The Sun and Moon seals Hagoromo gave Sasuke and Naruto disappear after they sealed Kaguya and they still had the abilities before dispelling the Tsukiyomi.
> 
> Are you saying the Tsukiyomi played a part in Naruto specifically having his abilities granted by the sage and not Sasuke?


No, it's just that releasing the Mugen Tsukuyomi was stated to need the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu, Naruto supplied that for Sasuke's Rinnegan to release it.
It is possible after the fight with Madara/Kaguya/Sasuke, then finally releasing the Mugen Tsukuyomi, he used up his 8 Bijuu Chakra fragments.



Klue said:


> I see no difference between the first half of images and the second. No indication from the author that Naruto was doing something different.
> 
> What is this?



Use your eyes, look how Kurama's Seal Spine connects to Naruto's Seal on his Chakra Cloak, the black lines become fragmented when Madara is trying to extract Kurama.

Here's some more examples:


That connection is not present against Sasuke or in The Last obviously, since they're separate.


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## Altair21 (May 14, 2015)

Not that I really agree with the argument the OP is presenting, but The Last is hardly filler when it's classified as an official chapter in the manga. It's no different than that of BoGs and RoF with DB, both of which are canon as well.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I would think people would at least consider what I'm presenting as a possibility. But most seem to completely out right refuse my idea as even possible.
> 
> I guess we will just wait and see who is proven right, I'd put money on Naruto not using any kind of Six Paths Sage State / Mode for the rest of Naruto based Media, unless the other 8 Bijuu give him more Chakra or something.



Because you're not making much sense within the context of the manga.

1. We know to access Six Paths Sage mode Naruto needs to tap into all 9 Biju chakra. (whole point of the fist bumps leading up to the power up)

2. Your entire argument is based on a fight in an anime movie where Naruto is shown an even greater mastery of his base abilities and wouldn't need to reach such levels as he did vs Kaguya just to defeat Toneri.

3. Your own discomfort of this notion is all we have to base your theory on

In short you're trying to run on water when there's clearly bridge to walk across.



Cryorex said:


> No, it's just that releasing the Mugen Tsukuyomi was stated to need the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu, Naruto supplied that for Sasuke's Rinnegan to release it.
> It is possible after the fight with Madara/Kaguya/Sasuke, then finally releasing the Mugen Tsukuyomi, he used up his 8 Bijuu Chakra fragments.
> 
> 
> ...



But what stops him from accessing these abilities except your own head canon?

Hagoromo said Naruto's mental realm acts as a vessel for all 9 Biju to meet.   From this we can gather Naruto still has contact with all Nine Biju.  What's stopping him from combining all of their chakra again to enter Six Paths sage mode if he needs it apart from your own refusal to see it?


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> But what stops him from accessing these abilities except your own head canon?
> 
> Hagoromo said Naruto's mental realm acts as a vessel for all 9 Biju to meet.   From this we can gather Naruto still has contact with all Nine Biju.  What's stopping him from combining all of their chakra again to enter Six Paths sage mode if he needs it apart from your own refusal to see it?


For starters, you are all assuming i'm saying it is fact that it is the way I am suggesting.
I am presenting the possibility of this being the case. A possibility I believe to be quite likely, but you seem to be ignoring everything I'm saying because you do not agree.

If he can call on the 9-Bijuu and access their Chakra remotely without meeting them "I doubt that, he'd probably need to meet them again." Sure he can get enough of their Chakra to use Six Paths Sage State/Mode agian.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> For starters, you are all assuming i'm saying it is fact that it is the way I am suggesting.
> I am presenting the possibility of this being the case. A possibility I believe to be quite likely, but you seem to be ignoring everything I'm saying because you do not agree.
> 
> If he can call on the 9-Bijuu and access their Chakra remotely without meeting them "I doubt that, he'd probably need to meet them again." Sure he can get enough of their Chakra to use Six Paths Sage State/Mode agian.



How am I ignoring everything you're saying when Ive addressed each one of your arguments? 

First you said , Naruto doesn't have access to these abilities because he didn't use them against Toneri. This is an assumption based on omission, just because you didn't see Naruto use it , he must've lost it. There's a fallacy in this line of thinking when we know Naruto can access any one of his modes to his hearts content, *even version one Kyubi cloak.*

Second,  you said that he lost it because of releasing the Tsukiyomi , your argument being that all of the Biju chakra was used to dispel it, ok well Sasuke indicated his Rinnegan is what enables him to dispel it on his end, even says if he died just implant the eye into Kakashi and he should be able as well, yet he did not lose his Rinnegan after he dispels it, but for some reason you're positive Naruto lost his.

except.

Naruto is the vessel of the 9 Biju's meeting place and has access to them in his mental realm whenever he feels the need.  Sooooo....What exactly is stopping him from using this mode aside from your own assumption he can't use it?


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## Lawliet (May 14, 2015)

People want characters to go all out the moment they see an enemy. 

years of reading manga and people still think like that. it's sad.


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

We shall see, I'll bet Naruto can't use it at his own will whenever he wants.
I bet he will essentially have to communicate with all 9 Bijuu and they will have to choose to give him their Chakra again for him to re-gain that power.
And as normal passively, he is just 100% Kurama Jinchuurki with a link to the other 8 Bijuu.

We'll see who's right in the coming Chapters, and I bet it's me.
But even then, I bet the whole Gaiden and Boruto movie will go by, Naruto will fight and won't use it.
And you will still be like, "He chose not to use it." :/


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> We shall see, I'll bet Naruto can't use it at his own will whenever he wants.
> *I bet he will essentially have to communicate with all 9 Bijuu and they will have to choose to give him their Chakra again for him to re-gain that power.*
> And passively he is just 100% Kurama Jinchuurki with a link to the other 8 Bijuu.
> 
> ...





Wow, way to back peddle.


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## B.o.t.i (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> We shall see, I'll bet Naruto can't use it at his own will whenever he wants.
> I bet he will essentially have to communicate with all 9 Bijuu and they will have to choose to give him their Chakra again for him to re-gain that power.
> And as normal passively, he is just 100% Kurama Jinchuurki with a link to the other 8 Bijuu.
> 
> ...



lol there's something wrong with you...your like argue stuff on your own. There's more canon data debunking your theory. cannon>opinion. Fan wars are over naruto won long time ago.

Might as well say naruto cant do frs cause he hasn't done it in a long time.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Even worse, now he's saying Naruto can access the Six Paths chakra, he just has to get the Biju's consent first.

No shit?


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## shade0180 (May 14, 2015)

Sauce can't use Chidori, The phoenix fire thingy and every other Uchiha jutsu because he hasn't shown to use them.



Sakura can't use medical Ninjutsu

Chouji can't use his clan jutsu

Kiba doesn't exist.

Konoha is the only village in the manga

 Kishi didn't show the other in the gaiden yet so you can't prove they exist...


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Kakashi definitely doesn't know 1,000 Jutsu either.


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## Klue (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Use your eyes, look how Kurama's Seal Spine connects to Naruto's Seal on his Chakra Cloak, the black lines become fragmented when Madara is trying to extract Kurama.
> 
> Here's some more examples:
> 
> ...



How is this evidence that Kurama is able to jump in and out of his body at will? Where does the author make an effort to highlight this detail?

As far as this thread is concerned, Naruto choosing to utilize a lesser combat form does not confirm that he can no longer enter a higher one.


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## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> Wow, way to back peddle.


I'm implying that he would have to physically meet with the other 8 Bijuu to regain that power.


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## Klue (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I'm implying that he would have to physically meet with the other 8 Bijuu to regain that power.



You haven't even provided substantial evidence suggesting that he lost it.

Start there.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I'm implying that he would have to physically meet with the other 8 Bijuu to regain that power.



Sure,_ now_ you are. You're obviously all over the place with this.


I'll leave you with one more headache, why would Naruto need to meet all of them physically when he's bonded with them all spiritually? They can meet, greet and talk in his head , but not share chakra with him unless they meet up physically now? Please say yes.


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## shade0180 (May 14, 2015)

Considering what he did in the war arc. 

there's no reason they can't share chakra to each other even if they are far away...


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Considering what he did in the war arc.
> 
> there's no reason they can't share chakra to each other even if they are far away...



Waiting for him answer....Because last I checked , Naruto was using their chakra even while they were still sealed inside Madara/Kaguya.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

Power deflation baby, gotta love that shit.


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## maupp (May 14, 2015)

Actually now that I think about it, Naruto didn't use Sage mode while sparing with Bolt in the first chapter. He must have fluked it this time since he didn't have it against Bolt


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## Edward Nygma (May 14, 2015)

Man, I hope so. These little skirmishes are always awesome. Planetary level nukes; less so.


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## Narutossss (May 14, 2015)

maupp said:


> Actually now that I think about it, Naruto didn't use Sage mode while sparing with Bolt in the first chapter. He must have fluked it this time since he didn't have it against Bolt


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## Blu-ray (May 14, 2015)

As much as defending Cryorex leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I feel everyone's missing the OP's point. Well. I think even he misses his own point.

Naruto's senjutsu seemed to have lost the pigmentation as a consequence of Rikudo's powerup. Even his base Sage+Kyuubi form did not have it, so it's not just a Rikudo mode only thing. Him having the pigment again would seem to imply the influence that removed it is gone, hence OP thinking he lost the powerup.

Not using the mode in the Last, where Toneri almost killed him and literally tried to fuck his bitch, seems to lend credence to this. So, it's not complete nonsense. Just mostly nonsense.



Cryorex said:


> We shall see, I'll bet Naruto can't use it at his own will whenever he wants.
> I bet he will essentially have to communicate with all 9 Bijuu and they will have to choose to give him their Chakra again for him to re-gain that power.
> And as normal passively, he is just 100% Kurama Jinchuurki with a link to the other 8 Bijuu.
> 
> ...



Bro, this makes no sense. Naruto *has to* have their chakra at all times for them to speak in his mind to begin with, and he doesn't need to physically meet them to get their chakra. He didn't the first time. Going to the deepest point in their consciousness was enough.

It would make more sense if you argued he somehow lost Rikudo's chakra, cause that takes less mental gymnastics to debate.


----------



## Zef (May 14, 2015)

Is this thread Implying that Naruto is inferior to Lord Sasuke?:ignoramus

I can't agree with Cryorex's reasoning, but I can't disagree with his conclusion either.:ignoramus


----------



## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> As much as defending Cryorex leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I feel everyone's missing the OP's point. Well. I think even he misses his own point.
> 
> Naruto's senjutsu seemed to have lost the pigmentation as a consequence of Rikudo's powerup. Even his base Sage+Kyuubi form did not have it, so it's not just a Rikudo mode only thing. Him having the pigment again would seem to imply the influence that removed it is gone, hence OP thinking he lost the powerup.
> 
> Not using the mode in the Last, where Toneri almost killed him and literally tried to fuck his bitch, seems to lend credence to this. So, it's not complete nonsense.


This is exactly what I'm saying. The return of the pigmentation, and lack of Six Paths Sage Mode against Toneri implies that he may have lost that power.


> Just mostly nonsense


No


> Bro, this makes no sense. Naruto *has to* have their chakra at all times for them to speak in his mind to begin with, and he doesn't need to physically meet them to get their chakra. He didn't the first time. Going to the deepest point in their consciousness was enough.


He may still have slithers of their Chakra left to do so, enough to communicate with them telepathically but not enough to enable a Six Paths Sage State.
My reply to Rindaman below shows what I believe about receiving the Bijuu's Chakra.


> It would make more sense if you argued he somehow lost Rikudo's chakra, cause that takes less mental gymnastics to debate.


I would think that perhaps, but it is the combination of all 9 Bijuu's Chakra and Senjutsu that gives rise to Six Paths Sage State. So I don't think Hagaromo's Yang Chakra is really to do with that.
Plus he matched Tenseigan Chakra Mode Toneri with basically something in-between KCM and BM combined with SM.
Surely he must have still had Hagaromo's Yang Chakra for something like that to defeat Toneri, if 50% BSM Naruto is weaker than 1 Rinnegan SM Madara, would 100% "Synced" KCSM => Tenseigan Chakra Mode Toneri?



Rindaman said:


> Sure,_ now_ you are. You're obviously all over the place with this.
> 
> 
> I'll leave you with one more headache, why would Naruto need to meet all of them physically when he's bonded with them all spiritually? They can meet, greet and talk in his head , but not share chakra with him unless they meet up physically now? Please say yes.


Naruto was inside Son Goku when he gained his Chakra.
Naruto had to physically touch each of 5 Bijuu's Chakra Transmitters simultaneously before he could interact with them all at once and gain their Chakra.
Obito had to directly give him Shukaku's and Gyuuki's Chakra.
Naruto has never received their Chakra remotely.

And they could only all meet in his head while he actively had their Chakra in his body. Naruto did not interact with the Bijuu within Madara at all.


Zef said:


> Is this thread Implying that Naruto is inferior to Lord Sasuke?:ignoramus
> 
> I can't agree with Cryorex's reasoning, but I can't disagree with his conclusion either.:ignoramus


Before Sasuke had to have the 9 Bijuu to be equal with Naruto.
If what I'm suggesting is true, perhaps Sasuke can equal Naruto without them.


----------



## Raventhal (May 14, 2015)

The only way he doesn't have the power is if he spent his chakra of the other tailed beast on something else.  

But most ninja in the magazine never go beyond the level needed to win.  You didn't see Kakashi uncovering his sharigan until it was needed.


----------



## Raiken (May 14, 2015)

Raventhal said:


> The only way he doesn't have the power is if he spent his chakra of the other tailed beast on something else.


Fighting Madara/Kaguya/Sasuke and undoing the Mugen Tsukuyomi? He was using all 9 for all of their Chakras, the last time we seen him use them all was undoing the Mugen Tsukuyomi.
Since then we have not seen him use powers that suggest they are of a Six Paths Sage nature.


----------



## Indra (May 14, 2015)

Lost the pigementation. Bruh what you are smoking?

Two forms of Sage Mode: Sage Mode, and RM.


----------



## shade0180 (May 14, 2015)

Anyway why would losing the pigmentation = weaker sage mode? 

pretty sure sage mode mastery is higher the lesser the changes it has done to your body. Ie Jiraiya looking like a toad <<<< Naruto only a small amount of coloring around his eyes.

so if he can go sage mode and not changed anything at all in his appearance it would mean he has mastered it to a higher degree than before...

So losing anything that could attribute to entering sage mode basically means he became stronger rather than weaker....


----------



## -Ziltoid- (May 14, 2015)

maupp said:


> Wut?
> 
> This thread doesn't make sense



Seems like some people in here expect Naruto to take out a sledgehammer when swatting a fly..


----------



## Saturnine (May 14, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto can vary his mode usages. Its no different than Goku using Super Saiyan when he has Super Saiyan God.



Yeah, only that Goku cannot go regular Super Saiyan when he's post-God - he'll always have the blue hair now.

But regardless, Naruto can use Sage Mode on its own, of course he can.


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (May 14, 2015)

..........................................

Naruto just didn't use anything beyond standard Sage Mode. Yes he could have but he didn't. He can enter any mode at will based on his level. Nowhere in the manga was it stated that his standard Sage Mode has turned into Six Paths Sage Mode and if for some weird reason if it did, Kishi would specify that they're different modes.


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## auem (May 14, 2015)

since Naruto does have rasengan in his hand i guess he lost that jutsu too..


----------



## Glutamminajr (May 14, 2015)

Naruto's use of Sage mode just confirms that....he needed just that mode in that moment.
Simple.And really...where is it stated that Naruto lost something at the end of the manga?
Nowhere.The only thing he lost and it's confirmed by the manga is the Yang seal.That's it.
To enter Rikudou Modo he just needs to be connected with all the bijuus and guess what?
Naruto according to Rikudou is linked with all the bijuus and there's nothing in the manga that goes against that statement.

The movie doesn't count since Naruto didn't need his Rikudou modo in there and not even there it was confirmed that Naruto lost his powers.


----------



## tkpirate (May 14, 2015)

well,i think Naruto still has his six paths Senjutsu,but we will surely have clarification on that matter.

but even if i say he dosen't have it,and go with what you're saying,how is he nerfed when the fucker can overpower a moon cutting sword with a single hand?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Sasuke still had his Rinnegan in The Last, Naruto didn't have his Six Paths Sage state or Chakra Mode.
> 
> Naruto shown that he lost the pigmentation around his eyes when using Senjutsu against Madara, Kaguya and Sasuke.



That's Naruto using Six Paths Sage Mode. 

The Last never implied Naruto lost Six Paths Sage Mode, and Naruto being able to access forms like SM doesn't mean he can't use stronger forms like Six Paths SM.

Going by the manga, it seemed like the Rinnegan and the Six Paths Senjutsu were permanent powers. Toneri just wasn't strong enough for Naruto to use anything beyond KCM-SM.

Sage Mode, gathering natural energy and balancing it with your physical-mental energy. Six Paths Sage Mode, using ALL the Bijuu's chakra simultaneously while throwing natural energy into the mix. That's why Six Paths Sage Mode has Naruto with his Bijuu and SM eyes, because it uses the same thing.

Madara and Obito had the Senjutsu of the Six Paths too... when they used the Bijuu's powers alongside natural energy.


----------



## shintebukuro (May 14, 2015)

I kind of agree with Cryorex, or I can at least see his point. When you compare Sennin Mode and Rikudou Sennin Mode, the only difference is in the _quality_ of the natural energy that is being absorbed, and in that case RSM could be seen as a permanent replacement for SM. 

The basic premise of Sennin Mode is balancing one's natural energy against one's physical and spiritual energies. The varying types of SM differ in the particular _kind_ of natural energy they gather, so no matter what version of SM you use (toad/snake/hashi), you still gather the same quantity of natural energy. Rikudou Sennin Mode is the same; it gathers only the same amount of natural energy as the other SM's, except what sets it so far beyond them is the fact that the quality of natural energy it gathers is _unfiltered Shinju-potency_.

So, it's not about tapping into Bijuu chakra; it's about the true form of Sennin Mode. Shinju natural energy is kind of like "super" natural energy, but I don't think it's any harder to mold, so it makes sense that it might replace "normal" SM.

But that's just one way of looking at it. There's any number of answers...



*Honestly, the bigger problem here has more to do with the fact that Kishimoto denied us of a clear explanation of Naruto's powerup at the end of the series, and as a result the community has scattered answers that we've all reached independently of one another, without enough concrete answers to unite us*. 

Same thing is also going on regarding the Kaguya/Hagoromo timeline as well as Sasuke's 3 tomoe Rinnegan; we only have bits and pieces of the puzzle and no one can make heads or tails of any of it.



And by the way, shame on the fuckin goofs who enter this topic and completely miss the fuckin point and talk about The Last and what Naruto shows/doesn't show. Way to completely not get it.


----------



## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

Here's the thing. Naruto did loose that RSM at the end of the manga because he lost Rikudo's Yang Tattoo. However he may have learned to use it on his own during the many year gap between the end of the manga and the beginning of Gaiden, only time will tell or not as far as that's concerned.


----------



## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> *Here's the thing. Naruto did loose that RSM at the end of the manga because he lost Rikudo's Yang Tattoo.* However he may have learned to use it on his own during the many year gap between the end of the manga and the beginning of Gaiden, only time will tell or not as far as that's concerned.



Here's the thing though, Naruto lost the Yang Tattoo after they sealed Kaguya yet still accessed RSM  in his final battle with Sasuke. So again, unless you and OP are saying Mugen Tsukiyomi had an effect on Naruto's abilities and not Sasuke's , I don't see your point.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here's the thing. Naruto did loose that RSM at the end of the manga because he lost Rikudo's Yang Tattoo. However he may have learned to use it on his own during the many year gap between the end of the manga and the beginning of Gaiden, only time will tell or not as far as that's concerned.



How did he use it against Sasuke when he lacked the tattoo? Also why did Sasuke say Naruto had all the Bijuu's chakra and why did Hagoromo say the same thing?

Most are just confusing themselves over a silly rumour when The Last was being released due to the fact that Naruto did not use the mode against Toneri. 

If the power was temporary, Kishimoto would have made it crystal clear. Considering all the "proof" of Naruto losing RSM is either things such as him losing the Yang tattoo (contradicted by the manga) and the made up fact that his previous transformations were overridden by RSM (which is like saying BM replaced KCM) which cannot be verified anywhere... the simple explanation is the best one in this case: Naruto didn't lose it. 

=====

The OP's main claim is that SM shouldn't be accessible because of RSM. We'd like to see evidence of that before we move onto what The Last allegedly showed us. 
The evidence the OP _did_ provide just showed Naruto using Six Paths Sage Mode's versions 1 and 2. Naruto using another mode doesn't mean he can't access a weaker one.


----------



## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How did he use it against Sasuke when he lacked the tattoo? Also why did Sasuke say Naruto had all the Bijuu's chakra and why did Hagoromo say the same thing?
> 
> Most are just confusing themselves over a silly rumour when The Last was being released due to the fact that Naruto did not use the mode against Toneri.
> 
> ...



Yea, he's moved the goal post once already, wont be surprised if his argument changes again. 

Naruto also used Version 1 Kyubi cloak to deflect Sasuke's Ameterasu.  Something that half the fandom was sure he didn't have access to anymore.


----------



## Csdabest (May 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Yeah man, I don't know about 100% BSM Naruto > 50% RSM Naruto, but this is what I'm thinking. Glad to see someone sees what I'm trying to get at without getting offensive.



I mean that in the manner of having more chakra. Seeing as half match and stalemated 5 of them one half should probably be more than the partial chakras givin to him by the other bijuu. If he were to go into six paths sage mode now he would be even stronger with more chakra to power those abilities


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> Yea, he's moved the goal post once already, wont be surprised if his argument changes again.
> 
> Naruto also used Version 1 Kyubi cloak to deflect Sasuke's Ameterasu.  Something that half the fandom was sure he didn't have access to anymore.



I suppose the confusion also comes from the fact that since Sasuke (excluding The Last) can't seem to deactivate the Rinnegan, must automatically mean Naruto can never go below RSM because of parallelz.


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## adeshina365 (May 14, 2015)

Yah, looks like Naruto lost RSM


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## Gunners (May 14, 2015)

Narutossss said:


> seriously this shit again, why would naruto go into rikudou mode, does he need to nuke a country?



People still don't understand Kishimoto's parallels. 

Last chapter, Sasuke activated his sharingan and then deactivated when he realised his task was no different to taking out the trash. Naruto was in SM, and then deactivated when he realised he was dealing with a poodle. 

Should be obvious to people that he has varying stages.


----------



## Summers (May 14, 2015)

Narutossss said:


> seriously this shit again, why would naruto go into rikudou mode, does he need to nuke a country?



battledome logic. enter strongest mode and insta-kill everyone.GG.


----------



## N120 (May 14, 2015)

Naruto hasn't used rasengan in a while.


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## shade0180 (May 14, 2015)

Narruto hasn't use kawarimi since the chunin exam. He must have lost it.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

Naruto hasn't summoned Gamabunta since the Pain arc.....


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## afrosheen6565 (May 14, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Narruto hasn't use kawarimi since the chunin exam. He must have lost it.




This guy gets it.


----------



## Mistshadow (May 14, 2015)

You say the wird confirm......I dknt think you know what it means.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 14, 2015)

It doesent matter if he lost it or not since Naruto is like a planet buster in the Last Naruto movie. The final fight with Toneri was some serious DBZ shit which made Kaguya's battle look like Chuning level in comparison.


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## adeshina365 (May 14, 2015)

N120 said:


> Naruto hasn't used rasengan in a while.





shade0180 said:


> Narruto hasn't use kawarimi since the chunin exam. He must have lost it.





Rindaman said:


> Naruto hasn't summoned Gamabunta since the Pain arc.....



False equivalencies all up in this bitch.


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## Rindaman (May 14, 2015)

How So?  We're just following OP's logic.

Outta sight , outta mind.


----------



## shintebukuro (May 14, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> How So?  We're just following OP's logic.
> 
> Outta sight , outta mind.



Fine.

But the OP's logic is more based on his understanding of Rikudou Sennin Mode, and the remainder of his argument (that you're referring to) is just him trying to connect the dots.

If you're worrying too much about that, then you're not really breaching the important part of the conversation.


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## Raiken (May 15, 2015)

At least a couple of people get what I'm trying to say, or at least try to get what I'm trying to say. 

I very well may be wrong, but the ideas that I presented, in my opinion, very likely confirm Naruto's lack of Six Paths Sage Power.

When Naruto first gained the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu, he had to be physically connected to each to receive their Chakra.
So if he was to regain their power, perhaps he'd need to physically meet them all again.
I believe however there is a remnant of them within Naruto, which still lets him commune with them all.
Perhaps that remnant would allow Naruto to regain their power remotely, but who knows.

We should or at least hopefully will see in the Gaiden or Boruto film.


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## Summers (May 15, 2015)

N120 said:


> Naruto hasn't used *rasengan* in a while.



Dont say that word.


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## TRN (May 15, 2015)

Summers said:


> Dont say that word.



 Rasengan


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## B.o.t.i (May 15, 2015)

shintebukuro said:


> Fine.
> 
> But the OP's logic is more based on his understanding of Rikudou Sennin Mode, and the remainder of his argument (that you're referring to) is just him trying to connect the dots.
> 
> If you're worrying too much about that, then you're not really breaching the important part of the conversation.



The argument is moronic and a waste of text. You say naruto lost something and have no proof. Provide evidence that he lost this power actual evidence not fanfics & opinion. Find us a panel where naruto says he cant use it.



> At least a couple of people get what I'm trying to say, or at least try to get what I'm trying to say, without acting like Children.
> 
> I very well may be wrong, but the ideas that I presented, in my opinion, very likely confirm Naruto's lack of Six Paths Sage Power.
> 
> ...



You are wrong, There's no perhaps its the facts. We don't need any proofs. We go on canon facts not opinion. Naruto's never lost a power up. So we wouldn't expect him too now.
The facts as they stand naruto can use rikudou mode. Because we have nothing that says he cant. when naruto gains abilitys he keeps them improves them. This is how its always been.

There's only 3 chakras naruto's gotten physically kyuubi ,gyuki and ichibi. The rest gave naruto their chakra in the  jinchuuruki realm. Naruto's never physically got chakra off all the bijuu .They gave him chakra in the jinchuurki realm. This is actual manga fact..

Here you go
Here you go
Here you go
Here you go
Here you go
Here you go
Here you go
Here you go
Here you go
Here you go

He got chakra from them remotely in the jinchu space ,he can do it again. And we wont see this form because no one is that level. Maybe if oro regrew the tree but


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## Raiken (May 15, 2015)

B.o.t.i said:


> You are wrong, There's no perhaps its the facts. We don't need any proofs. We go on canon facts not opinion. Naruto's never lost a power up. So we wouldn't expect him too now.
> The facts as they stand naruto can use rikudou mode. Because we have nothing that says he cant. when naruto gains abilitys he keeps them improves them. This is how its always been.
> 
> There's only 3 chakras naruto's gotten physically kyuubi ,gyuki and ichibi. The rest gave naruto their chakra in the  jinchuuruki realm. Naruto's never physically got chakra off all the bijuu .They gave him chakra in the jinchuurki realm. This is actual manga fact..
> ...


Come on man, use your brain. So you say when they gave Naruto their Chakra in the mental plane, it was remotely and there was no physical contact. What were they doing at the same time? What triggered that mental plane interaction to happen?
Hmm?.....

Naruto was physically grasping each one of their Chakra Transmitters, once Naruto was "PHYSICALLY" connected to each of their Chakra, as shown in the below images.


That crossover mental realm was possible, but not before Naruto "PHYSICALLY" connected to their Chakra.
It was because he was connected to all 5, that a mental realm involving, him, Kurama, and the other 5 of the Bijuu and their Jinchuuriki was possible.

The mental realm was simply showing them agreeing to give Naruto their Chakra. It was still a physical handover process that was possible because they were all connected by Chakra.
So before you accuse me of being wrong and all the petty mockery words you come out with before now, actually know what  you're talking about before hand.


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## shintebukuro (May 15, 2015)

b.o.t.i said:
			
		

> The argument is moronic and a waste of text. You say naruto lost something and have no proof. Provide evidence that he lost this power actual evidence not fanfics & opinion. Find us a panel where naruto says he cant use it.



It's not my opinion that Naruto lost anything.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 16, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> When Naruto first gained the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu, he had to be physically connected to each to receive their Chakra.
> So if he was to regain their power, perhaps he'd need to physically meet them all again.
> I believe however there is a remnant of them within Naruto, which still lets him commune with them all.
> Perhaps that remnant would allow Naruto to regain their power remotely, but who knows.
> ...



He didn't have to be physically connected to each Bijuu to receive their chakra. Each Bijuu had to have a piece of their chakra within Naruto. This made Naruto a sort of Jinchuriki of the Bijuu; Naruto has those "copies" of the Bijuu within him. Arguably those portions of the Bijuu could communicate with the actual Bijuu, perhaps even get chakra transferred from them. However, Naruto doesn't need to be with the actual Bijuu.

The actual Bijuu were within a Juubi Jinchuriki while Naruto has pieces of their chakra within him. Bijuu are chakra beings, so having a piece of the 8 Bijuu's chakra is like essentially having the Bijuu there. Now this is a point you've seemingly acknowledged by Naruto can commune with all of them, however your initial point is wrong. your latter point about Naruto obtaining their power remotely is correct.

He can gain their power remotely because that's how he was doing it when he started using their power in all the battles he's been in using the mode. 

From what we know, once Naruto got their chakra... he's got it for life now. 

IMO, The Last has no bearing on anything because I think there's a misconception that Naruto would've used it on Toneri if he could have... but Toneri wasn't that strong. Most likely the animators probably didn't want to show RSM before the anime did. If The Last came out around July this year, we may have seen RSM. Instead, they chose to use a chakra mode we've seen (accounting for Naruto's new Bijuu seal and new Bijuu comrades) paired with SM... something not seen in the manga or anime. 

Basically I'm willing to bet that Naruto has access to Sage Mode (we saw it this chapter), his old chakra shroud (he used it to remove Amaterasu), the powers of the 9 Bijuu (we saw this against Kayuga/Madara) alongside RSM when he _chooses_ to bring them all together. 
If you believed RSM kind of overrode the other modes, the notion is understandable. But that's not what the evidence really suggests when you've paired it with other aspects of the manga like Naruto being described as a Jinchuriki of all the Bijuu while showing that he's capable of using their individual powers.

Think of RSM as the mode required for the strongest of foes. Shin Uchiha and Toneri Ootsutsuki didn't seem to match that definition to the point of warranting the mode's use.


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## Source (May 16, 2015)

Proof that Naruto's toad SM was replaced by the mode he used when he kicked Madara's ass after awakening?

That form is probably some kind of weaker variant of RSM, not a new toad SM.


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## Rindaman (May 16, 2015)

shintebukuro said:


> Fine.
> 
> But the OP's logic is more based on his understanding of Rikudou Sennin Mode, and the remainder of his argument (that you're referring to) is just him trying to connect the dots.
> 
> If you're worrying too much about that, then you're not really breaching the important part of the conversation.



No, it's not logic , it's based in pure suspicion and speculation , and OP hasn't provided any evidence outside of he didn't use it against Toneri.  He's already altered his argument once from Naruto can't use Rikudou mode at all, now he's saying Naruto needs physical contact with the Biju to activate it.

Except, Madara and Kaguya were the ten tails Jinchuriki , remember? Yet Naruto still has access to all the Biju Chakra while fighting them , and after he and Sasuke seal Kaguya sis, and their seals disappear , Naruto _still_ used RSM vs Sasuke, and here's the important part about that fight, *Sasuke had all the Biju sealed in Chibaku Tensei, yet Naruto still had RSM activated.*

Aside from all of this, Hagoromo outright confirms for us that Naruto will always have access to them because his mental realm acts as a meeting place for all the Biju, Naruto didn't need them vs Toneri because he and Kurama were enough and his base abilities and control over KCM had vastly improved.

So again , I appreciate you white knighting OP but I sincerely don't know what either of you are talking about, you speak in what ifs, and maybe so , I'm using the manga to back up my claims.


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## shade0180 (May 16, 2015)

There's really no proof that Naruto lost access to any of his transformation.

From what the manga has portrayed he can use any mode at will. He basically can juggle any mode depending on what he feels like using... that's all there is to it..


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## Rindaman (May 16, 2015)

From the moment Naruto fist bumped with all the Biju, Shikaku being the last one if I'm not mistaken, he's always had access to their chakra, even while they were sealed in various capacity.


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## B.o.t.i (May 16, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Come on man, use your brain. So you say when they gave Naruto their Chakra in the mental plane, it was remotely and there was no physical contact. What were they doing at the same time? What triggered that mental plane interaction to happen?
> Hmm?.....
> 
> *Naruto was physically grasping each one of their Chakra Transmitters, once Naruto was "PHYSICALLY" connected to each of their Chakra, as shown in the below images.*
> ...



Your diagrams fodder. The transmitters do not contain bijuu chakra. They are obitos control devices.If you touch the rods you get wrapped up in chakra chains.Again the rods do not contain bijuu chakra.They contain obitos chakra.

Once naruto's kb's removed obitos transmitters he actually let go of the bijuu.
puddle
puddle
puddle

Once the rods were removed the orginal naruto went into the jinchuu plane. The only place naruto gained th bijuu chakra was through the jinchuu plane.Because once he freed the bijuus's of the rods he let go of them ,his power run out.
puddle

The only place naruto gained chakra from bijuu was in the jinchuu plane.He did not physically grab them.He was'nt even holding them.All chakra trasnfer happend in the jinchuu plane.

So to the facts.Naruto has all bijuu chakra,naruto can get chakras from bijuus remotely ,naruto can talk to all bijuus remotely. He has access to bijuu whenever.

Naruto has several chakra modes that he can go in & out of when he wants.Cause he has chakra control.

*Naruto has never lost a power up in this manga .Every power up gained gets stronger and better over time.*

Knowing all this.You wrote this mega try hard troll post. Saying naruto lost a power with no evidence ,no panels,no data,no manga page.Just an assumption.Which you still try and argue as facts.

Now show us when,where it was said in this manga/the last movie that naruto cannot go into rikudou mode. Show us your evidence. Real evidence we dont care about what you think ,this that. Bring us the page,panel where naruto says he cant do it.Where the bijuus reject him.


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## Blu-ray (May 16, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> This is exactly what I'm saying. The return of the pigmentation, and lack of Six Paths Sage Mode against Toneri implies that he may have lost that power.
> 
> No



It's not based on anything concrete though. The pigmentation or lack thereof could just as easily be nothing more than a way to differentiate between Naruto's ordinary Senjutsu and Rikudo Senjutsu.



> He may still have slithers of their Chakra left to do so, enough to communicate with them telepathically but not enough to enable a Six Paths Sage State.
> My reply to Rindaman below shows what I believe about receiving the Bijuu's Chakra.



Even then this wouldn't mean he lost the ability to use the mode. Just that he doesn't have enough Bijuu chakra to use it at the moment.



> Naruto was inside Son Goku when he gained his Chakra.
> Naruto had to physically touch each of 5 Bijuu's Chakra Transmitters simultaneously before he could interact with them all at once and gain their Chakra.
> Obito had to directly give him Shukaku's and Gyuuki's Chakra.
> Naruto has never received their Chakra remotely.
> ...


Now that I reread those chaps... you're actually right on this point.

Doesn't help the argument that Naruto lost RSM though. At best it would mean he just needs to get their chakra again.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He didn't have to be physically connected to each Bijuu to receive their chakra. Each Bijuu had to have a piece of their chakra within Naruto. This made Naruto a sort of Jinchuriki of the Bijuu; Naruto has those "copies" of the Bijuu within him. Arguably those portions of the Bijuu could communicate with the actual Bijuu, perhaps even get chakra transferred from them. However, Naruto doesn't need to be with the actual Bijuu.



He did though. Whether or not he lost the powerup aside, Naruto did have contact with the beasts when he got their chakra. And the chakra he did receive was noted to be limited. He didn't have a remote chakra transfer link with the Bijuu constantly streaming him chakra.



> He can gain their power remotely because that's how he was doing it when he started using their power in all the battles he's been in using the mode.



He wasn't though. He was simply using what they already put inside of him. Chakra wasn't being actively channeled from the main Bijuu to Naruto.


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## Six (May 16, 2015)

I honestly hope all that stuff he and sasuke did were only for the arc and didn't carry over to the present, because out of nowhere you see him spamming all kinds of elemental just and all kinds of bullshit that ruined the series. This gaiden has shown me what i first loved about this series. No need for every just to be flashy or cause a giant explosion.  Just want to see ninja technique and strategy. For that reason Neji Vs Kidomaru will remain the best fight we've had


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## Raiken (May 17, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> It's not based on anything concrete though. The pigmentation or lack thereof could just as easily be nothing more than a way to differentiate between Naruto's ordinary Senjutsu and Rikudo Senjutsu.
> 
> Even then this wouldn't mean he lost the ability to use the mode. Just that he doesn't have enough Bijuu chakra to use it at the moment.
> 
> ...


I understand that my claim does not have solid evidence, however based on certain factors, there are implications that may suggest he doesn't have the ability to go RSM outside of physically meeting up with the other 8 Bijuu again.

But yeah, despite weather you agree or not, at least you understand what I'm saying about the fact that Naruto did need a physical connection with the Bijuu to gain their Chakra, and what he used later was only what they gave him back then, unlike B.o.t.i, Rinderman and Mundo.

The main point of this thread is that Naruto does not passively have a Rikudou Sennin Chakra augmentation active all the time, like it appeared to be against Madara/Kaguya/Sasuke.

When he uses his powers then:
It was *Base* - *RSM* - *RSCM* "Rikudou Sennin Chakra Mode"
But now it has gone back to how it was before then, except with 100% Kurama:
*Base* - *SM* / *KCM* / *KCSM* - *BM* / *BSM*

All of the Red Text is basically fact at this point.

*The question of this thread -Snip- is:*

1: Is the other 8 Bijuu's Chakra still there and can he activate his Rikudou Sennin augmentation at any time freely if he chooses to.

2: Has the other 8 Bijuu's Chakra been exhausted to a point where there's just enough left for a Telepathic Link, and he can remotely call on them for them to ask them for more Chakra if he needs to.

3: Has the other 8 Bijuu's Chakra been exhausted to a point where there's just enough left for a Telepathic Link, and he needs to physically meet up with them again to regain their Chakra.

Most people here seem to believe it's 1, I'm leaning towards 2 or 3, mainly 3.

The reason I don't believe it's 1 is because of the events of The Last.
In which he was having an even fight with Toneri, and despite how great a threat he was posing to the whole world, you think Naruto held back?

So that leaves me with 2 and 3.
The reason I don't believe it is 2 is because of the way he had to acquire the Bijuu's Chakra in the first place, which required physical contact.


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## Zef (May 17, 2015)

This thread is still ongoing? :ignoramus



Naruto had a finite amount of Bijuu chakra. He used it all up(Or at least the majority) , and as a result has not been able to access RSM since. 

Thank you,  and Lord Sasuke solos Naruto either way. :ignoramus


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## shade0180 (May 17, 2015)

> I understand that my claim does not have solid evidence,



The whole argument died here.


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## Raiken (May 17, 2015)

Zef said:


> This thread is still ongoing? :ignoramus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I forgot about this, along with my previous post.
This further supports 2 or 3.

This doesn't prove anything, but Kishi did make Naruto way too powerful to the point that he could equal Sasuke even when he had control of all 9 Bijuu.



shade0180 said:


> The whole argument died here.


It has supporting evidence that makes it worth considering and thinking about.
By solid evidence, I obviously mean my point is not conclusive, there is not evidence that outright proves my point, otherwise there would be no debate and everyone would know already.


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## Zef (May 17, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> The whole argument died here.



It really did.

Never admit that you have insufficient evidence.


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## Indra (May 17, 2015)

The people that believe RSM is created through all of the Bijuu chakra :


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## Raiken (May 17, 2015)

If you don't have anything but crap to say Rindaman, "like usually", don't post.

And Indra, Six Paths Sage Mode "Rikudou Sennin Modo", is created through the combination of the Chakra of all 9 Bijuu combined with Senjutsu. If you think it is something else, you are simply, outright, wrong.


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## Indra (May 17, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> If you don't have anything but crap to say Rindaman, "like usually", don't post.
> 
> And Indra, Six Paths Sage Mode "Rikudou Sennin Modo", is created through the combination of the Chakra of all 9 Bijuu combined with Senjutsu. If you think it is something else, you are simply, outright, wrong.


Nope. Naruto received Hagoromo's Sage chakra, Senjutsu. When combined with Kurama's chakra, it creates the Rikudou Sennin Mode

It doesn't state all Nine Tailed beasts anywhere.


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## TRN (May 17, 2015)

lndra said:


> Nope. Naruto received Hagoromo's Sage chakra, Senjutsu. When combined with Kurama's chakra, it creates the Rikudou Sennin Mode
> 
> It doesn't state all Nine Tailed beasts anywhere.



So that what the translator Seelentau and other mean when they said that naruto senjutsu of the six path wasn't from the 9 tail beast.

That would explain ashura avatar here



Baby Kruama mix with six path chakra senjutsu maybe


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## shintebukuro (May 17, 2015)

Rindaman said:
			
		

> Aside from all of this, Hagoromo outright confirms for us that Naruto will always have access to them because his mental realm acts as a meeting place for all the Biju, Naruto didn't need them vs Toneri because he and Kurama were enough and his base abilities and control over KCM had vastly improved.



I am not interested in his argument, because I have read it and I disagree with most of it. 

I believe this thread best serves as discussion for how Naruto's RSM functions, rather than seeing it as a challenge you must shut down.



> So again , I appreciate you white knighting OP but I sincerely don't know what either of you are talking about, you speak in what ifs, and maybe so , I'm using the manga to back up my claims.



It seems like you're kind of worried about viewing this as a competition instead of looking at it as a chance for stimulating discussion on an otherwise dead forum.

The fact is, we do not have much info regarding the mechanics of Naruto's RSM, so this is an opportunity to talk it out. Is it just the result of combining 9 bijuu's chakra with Ashura's chakra/spirit? Is he combining the bijuu chakra and then balancing natural energy against that? Or maybe the combined bijuu chakra turns into Shinju natural energy, which he uses to balance against his own chakra? Does the Bijuu chakra run out unless Naruto specifically ask for more?


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## Source (May 17, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I understand that my claim does not have solid evidence, however based on certain factors, there are implications that may suggest he doesn't have the ability to go RSM outside of physically meeting up with the other 8 Bijuu again.
> 
> But yeah, despite weather you agree or not, at least you understand what I'm saying about the fact that Naruto did need a physical connection with the Bijuu to gain their Chakra, and what he used later was only what they gave him back then, unlike B.o.t.i, Rinderman and Mundo.
> 
> ...



Perfectly reasonable.

1-3 are all possibilities. Though The Last situation could've just been because they didn't want to show the mode off before the anime.



Zef said:


> This thread is still ongoing? :ignoramus
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That statement could be interpreted in a number of ways.

Sasuke could've just been comparing the quantity of chakra he absorbed with the quantity Naruto has.

And we both know Sasuke and Naruto will be equal either way. Reaching moon cutting, god tier  levels without RSM will just make Naruto look better. :ignoramus


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## Zef (May 17, 2015)

Source said:


> That statement could be interpreted in a number of ways.
> 
> Sasuke could've just been comparing the quantity of chakra he absorbed with the quantity Naruto has.



*"You hold only a little piece of each Bijuu's chakra"*, can only be interpreted as *"You hold only a little piece of each Bijuu's chakra"*.
There's no amount of reaching that can change the context of such a direct statement like that. You even see Naruto panting before Sasuke makes the comment.




> And we both know Sasuke and Naruto will be equal either way. Reaching moon cutting, god tier levels with just Kurama+SM at 19 y will just make Naruto look better. :ignoramus



Shh. I would like to maintain my delusion that Sasuke is superior, thank you very much. :ignoramus


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## Indra (May 17, 2015)

TRN said:


> So that what the translator Seelentau and other mean when they said that naruto senjutsu of the six path wasn't from the 9 tail beast.
> 
> That would explain ashura avatar here
> 
> ...


Obviously, it is a fan speculation. I can prove it right now if you want me to.


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## Raiden (May 17, 2015)

No evidence about what you said, but I actually do hope that he can't access the form.


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## Alucardemi (May 17, 2015)

What's the consensus on if there is a difference between RSM/Tomoe-Rinnegan power-ups and the Yang/Yin no Chikara power-ups?

Even if Naruto/Sasuke didn't lose their RSM and Rinnegan, would they have lost their half of Hagoromo chakra when they blew-up their arms?


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## TRN (May 17, 2015)

lndra said:


> Obviously, it is a fan speculation. I can prove it right now if you want me to.



I agree with you but still would like hear what you have


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## Zef (May 17, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> What's the consensus on if there is a difference between RSM/Tomoe-Rinnegan power-ups and the Yang/Yin no Chikara power-ups?
> 
> Even if Naruto/Sasuke didn't lose their RSM and Rinnegan, would they have lost their half of Hagoromo chakra when they blew-up their arms?


The general consensus is that they still possesses Rikudou chakra. 
There are some who say otherwise, but there's little evidence to argue on either side.

One can attribute Naruto and Sasuke's strength in The Last to them having Rikudou chakra, or simply getting stronger naturally through time.

I've said it numerous times, and I'll continue saying it.
4th Databook is shit. No explanation on Tomoe Rinnegan. No explanation on Rikudou chakra. No explanation for half the the shit Naruto, and Sasuke did after meeting Hagoromo. In the end it's all up to interpretation.


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## RockyIII (May 17, 2015)

I don't get it. So can naruto still access that form with the short coat and black balls around him?


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## TRN (May 17, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> I don't get it. So can naruto still access that form with the short coat and black balls around him?



99% that he does but just wait for the wait for Boruto the movie because this sarada manga don't look like it will show any action


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 17, 2015)

B.o.t.i said:


> Once the rods were removed the original naruto went into the jinchuu plane.


Nope, you have your events reversed. [1, 2, 3]


Cryorex said:


> 2: Has the other 8 Bijuu's Chakra been exhausted to a point where there's just enough left for a Telepathic Link, and he can remotely call on them for them to ask them for more Chakra if he needs to.
> 
> 3: Has the other 8 Bijuu's Chakra been exhausted to a point where there's just enough left for a Telepathic Link, and he needs to physically meet up with them again to regain their Chakra.
> 
> ...


Good thing there's a stronger precedence for 2 rather than 3. The mechanism is even further explained.


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## Source (May 18, 2015)

Zef said:


> *"You hold only a little piece of each Bijuu's chakra"*, can only be interpreted as *"You hold only a little piece of each Bijuu's chakra"*.
> There's no amount of reaching that can change the context of such a direct statement like that. You even see Naruto panting before Sasuke makes the comment.



It's one of the likely possibilities but it isn't that clear cut.

If he said something like "*now* you hold only a little of each Bijuu's chakra", I would've been sold on the matter. This way, it's much more ambiguous. Sasuke could've meant that the chakra Naruto recieved in general "little". Don't see how this is reaching, but idgaf anyway.


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## Raiken (May 18, 2015)

Vaatu said:


> Nope, you have your events reversed. [1, 2, 3]


I did notice he had those reversed but I just couldn't be bothered correcting him based on his past replies to me. :/


> Good thing there's a stronger precedence for 2 rather than 3. The mechanism is even further explained.


And yeah I agree, that does imply that *2* very well likely may be the case. After remembering Naruto's Chakra link with the Alliance and how after he had connected to them once, he could share it remotely, that does strongly implicate *2* being the case.
Actually I'd now say it is more likely *2* than *3*, but maybe something in-between the two.
Perhaps it can be shared remotely like the Chakra with the Alliance, but perhaps there is a certain range which is limited in distance.

But I definitely think *1* is not the case at all.


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## Doc Mindstorm (May 18, 2015)

OP has opinion since Naruto lost biju chakra of 8 of them he can't use RM.
Ok let's remeber two bros that *Hago's descendants* - KinGin, they ate() Kurama and gained his chakra and even after dead were able to use it. A stated that normal(fodder) guy tried pull that and he just died.
Moreover whe have *junchuriki* who lost his beast but still has it's chakra - Gaara

*Spoiler*: __ 







And now about Naruto he is *Hago's descendant* and 
So OP your "theory" is debunked.


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## Raiken (May 18, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> OP has opinion since Naruto lost biju chakra of 8 of them he can't use RM.
> Ok let's remeber two bros that *Hago's descendants* - KinGin, they ate() Kurama and gained his chakra and even after dead were able to use it. A stated that normal(fodder) guy tried pull that and he just died.
> Moreover whe have *junchuriki* who lost his beast but still has it's chakra - Gaara
> 
> ...


Just because Gaara had a remnant, doesn't mean he could make use of it in a way that let him use Shukaku's powers like RSM Naruto could.
Remember, Naruto had the fragments of the Bijuu's Chakra at first, but couldn't do anything with them until later.
Gaara's Chakra was simply still attuned/similar to Shukaku's due to growing up with Shukaku sealed within him.

And Ginkaku and Kinkaku physically eat the Chakra flesh of the Kyuubi and it changed them inside and out, what happened to Naruto is different, he just received some of their Chakra.


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## Doc Mindstorm (May 18, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Just because Gaara had a remnant, doesn't mean he could make use of it in a way that let him use Shukaku's powers like RSM Naruto could.
> Remember, Naruto had the fragments of the Bijuu's Chakra at first, but couldn't do anything with them until later.
> Gaara's Chakra was simply still attuned/similar to Shukaku's due to growing up with Shukaku sealed within him.
> 
> And Ginkaku and Kinkaku physically eat the Chakra flesh of the Kyuubi and it changed them inside and out, what happened to Naruto is different, he just received some of their Chakra.


Why you accented on Gaara and completely ignored Sasuke on that matter may i ask?
He stated Naruto as * jin of all beasts* - and who jinchūriki are? Person who has beast or part of beast(Naruto and Minato's case) inside him and can use it for own benefit. There is difference between owning chakra and having chakra - Kakashi and Shinobi Alliance haved Karuma's chakra with Naruto as mediator, Naruto owns 9 beasts chakra inside him so if he ever run low on it it will regrow in time, same way Kurama did in manga.


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## Raventhal (May 18, 2015)

Didn't the Sage say that Naruto was going to be the host for each tailed beast so they could communicate?


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## shade0180 (May 18, 2015)

Naruto would be a host to the tailed beast as their meeting place. not just to communicate.


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## MS81 (May 18, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Why you accented on Gaara and completely ignored Sasuke on that matter may i ask?
> He stated Naruto as * jin of all beasts* - and who jinchūriki are? Person who has beast or part of beast(Naruto and Minato's case) inside him and can use it for own benefit. There is difference between owning chakra and having chakra - Kakashi and Shinobi Alliance haved Karuma's chakra with Naruto as mediator, Naruto owns 9 beasts chakra inside him so if he ever run low on it it will regrow in time, same way Kurama did in manga.



Kurama gave his own chakra to Kakashi when he was about to be depleted.


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## Indra (May 18, 2015)

TRN said:


> I agree with you but still would like hear what you have



Alright so there seems to be some miscommunication, though no one can be blamed really. Kishimoto did not make these power ups clear, nor did he use Hagoromo to explain them well. 

What do we know? Both Naruto/Sasuke received seals from Hagoromo to seal Kaguya, the powers that came through Hagoromo are indeed permanent. The only thing the seals were used for was the sealing of Kaguya, and that was actually explained through the Data Book 4 representation of the CT seals for Kaguya. 

--------------------------------
Now Hagoromo shared his power evenly between Naruto and Sasuke (Giving one his Senjutsu/Body power up and the other his Dojutsu/Eye power up). They are mainly composed of Yang/Yin chakra. Sasuke already had components of Yang through Hashirama’s cells that were given to him after his death through Kabuto, and a big reason as to why his Rinnegan mutated with his Sharingan, is due to a few reasons:

I. Hagormo activating the RInnegan for him through Sasuke being a trans migrant 
II. Hagoromo giving Sasuke his Yin, unlike Madara who activated the Rinnegan through the Uchiha Stone Tablet process. 

For Naruto he only received Yang, but from my understanding he also received Yin as well. Which is why he can control and manipulate Truth Seeking Balls as the requirement is having both Yin/Yang (DB) and the five other elements (DB which he has). Naruto after waking up displayed feats of what looked like Sage Mode, but it was not. Clearly the Bijuu hold no ground in his power. Unless someone can clearly explain why Senjutsu from Hagoromo in RM requires Bijuu Chakra to activate, then clearly Naruto has Hagoromo’s Chakra/Senjutsu which he can tap into. (X)

Now the difference between Sage Mode, and Rikudou Mode (Base RSM) is that Naruto does not require a preparation time. That was clearly showcased in VoTE2 after Sasuke used a fireball setup with Amentojikara, and Naruto activated Rikudou Sage Mode instantly. (X)

These powers are two different sources, with two different origins. I don’t need to explain why Naruto using his regular Sage Mode is no insight for him losing any Rikudou powers. Now for Rikudou Sage Mode, the Data book state no Tailed Beast at all in the page. I have asked five different translators in the Naruto wiki, Naruto Base, and then I asked Organic Dinosaur on my final verdict. I even brought up this fact to the Naruto wikia and they decided not to follow through with my plan because of the Truth Seeking Balls (they believed they were created through Tailed Beasts)
Not the case. Both Hagoromo/Hamura had TSB staffs when they were fighting the Juubi:  )(X)

Hagoromo had Truth Seeking Balls before becoming the Juubi Jin: 


Hamura even had the Truth Seeking Balls even though he had no relation to the Juubi, or the Tailed Beasts: 

Conclusion: Obviously if you followed the story you would have realized that Kaguya ate the Shinju Fruit, and birthed two sons: Hagoromo and Hamura. Later she merged with the Shinju Tree and became the Juubi itself, which is why she had to be brought down and sealed. Truth Seeking Balls are manifested through Six Path Senjutsu, not Tailed Beasts. The Databook states it anyway.

-------------------------------------
Bijuu Chakra and Rikudou Sage Mode. The only thing unlocked outside of his power in RSM is the activation of using the Tailed Beast chakra outside of Kurama, that was hidden in his body. I’ll show you a few examples of how Naruto uses the Tailed Beast chakra (outside of Kurama) and these are canonically true. He can’t use them any other way. 
(X)
(X)
If you did not notice the pattern, Naruto using the other Tailed Beasts chakra, he has to call upon them or they contact him. Of course he used Kurama in the same way during his Kaguya fight (but Kurama tapped into Naruto’s chakra) while the others gave their power onto him. It should be  a no brainer that Naruto can use Kurama’s chakra without contacting him, if you need a clear example go look at VoTE2 when Naruto used a V2 cloak to remove Amaterasu from his skin. 


-----------------
Rikudou Sage Mode is created through Hagoromo’s Chakra/Senjutus and the Kyuubi:

(X)

Looking at KCM/BM, they all had a distinctive look, the way the chakra moves, and the hair strands. Now take a look at Rikudou Sage Mode activating:
(X)
Notice the way the chakra operates, the flaming sizzle, whose chakra performs and operates that way from past examples? No brainer. 
Should be obvious, and I wrote way too much on this anyway. Hope you enjoyed it.


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## Azula (May 18, 2015)

Naruto is the one the bijuus have been waiting for and he will be the one to keep them united as the Sage said.


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## shade0180 (May 18, 2015)

> Kurama gave his own chakra to Kakashi when he was about to be depleted.



doesn't matter because the feat was elevated later on when Kurama and Naruto gave it to everyone else remotely without any contact at all.


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## Doc Mindstorm (May 18, 2015)

MS81 said:


> Kurama gave his own chakra to Kakashi when he was about to be depleted.


He later specified that he uses Naruto as mediator.


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## tari101190 (May 18, 2015)

He doesn't have the mode anymore, but he still has chakra from all Bijuu. Enough to still act as their meeting point.

If they provide him with more chakra, he will regain Six Paths Sage Mode.

But he's fine with Sage Mode and Kyuubi Chakra Mode for now.


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## Raventhal (May 18, 2015)

Its only been proven that Naruto and Sasuke were given each half of his seals.  Once the seals were used and returned they both kept their powers. 

Naruto met the requirements to be a Juubi Jin by having all of the tailed beast contained in his body.  He just didn't have the shell like Obito and Madara.   This chakra he used as natural energy the same as Juubi/Madara/Obito.  He should still have this power if he still retains all of the tailed beast chakra.

 Its been implied that the 9 tails chakra is more closely tied to the SoSP than the Juubi which was his mother and tree as stated by the Sage somewhere.  

Sasuke meet the requirements shown by Madara to awaken the Rinnegan.  Near death plus chakra of both brothers given by Kabuto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> He did though. Whether or not he lost the powerup aside, Naruto did have contact with the beasts when he got their chakra. And the chakra he did receive was noted to be limited. He didn't have a remote chakra transfer link with the Bijuu constantly streaming him chakra.



You're right, he did. I used to think that the chakra was limited too, however Naruto was given a brand new seal to use the Senjutsu of the Six Paths when he met the Bijuu and Hagoromo. Limited chakra means it'd run out, but Hagoromo was convinced the Bijuu could always remain in contact with Naruto. So it isn't so limited in that it can run out. 

It seemed like the chakra within Naruto acted like little transmitters which the Bijuu could stream chakra into _if_ they wanted.



> He wasn't though. He was simply using what they already put inside of him. Chakra wasn't being actively channeled from the main Bijuu to Naruto.



Yes he was. The moment he got their chakra, all of them, then he started using them. The chakra wasn't being channeled, but nothing says it had a time limit till it'd run out. From what it looks like, it can't go lower than it was in the battle otherwise there'd be no chance of the Bijuu communicating with one-another.



Cryorex said:


> 2: Has the other 8 Bijuu's Chakra been exhausted to a point where there's just enough left for a Telepathic Link, and he can remotely call on them for them to ask them for more Chakra if he needs to.



The only problem I have with this question is that no-one has ever presented a reason why the chakra could even be exhausted to that point. It seems that the amount they put in Naruto seems just enough to facilitate communication between the Bijuu. Should this hold, that means he should be able to access RSM.

Now whether or not he can access the chakra remotely depends if you think the Bijuu chakra act like little transmitters within Naruto. Or if they operate in a similar principle to the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, wherein they'll get more chakra if the Bijuu gather more chakra.



> The reason I don't believe it's 1 is because of the events of The Last.
> In which he was having an even fight with Toneri, and despite how great a threat he was posing to the whole world, you think Naruto held back?



I'm just saying Toneri wasn't that strong. The dude never used Kurama till the end of The Last. I'm willing to hazard a guess and say Toneri wasn't that strong relative to foes who'd require BM, especially RSM. 

Logically: the anime didn't even see RSM yet, so why animate RSM without showing it in the anime? Rinnegan Sasuke's a puzzle, but he didn't really use his Rinnegan powers for anything except appearing and disappearing.

It could be that by the time The Last occurred, Naruto and Sasuke didn't need to use heavy force in the form of RSM or Rinnegan. IIRC, not even in the novels did Naruto need to use much. 



> The reason I don't believe it is 2 is because of the way he had to acquire the Bijuu's Chakra in the first place, which required physical contact.



But 2 assumes we know the quantity of chakra needed for using their power... and that it is distinct from the amount of chakra needed for telepathic communication. Do we know that the amounts differentiate from one-another?


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## CyberianGinseng (May 24, 2015)

Don't know why they closed the other thread as no reason was given so I'll post this here.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The cloak though isn't Six Path Sage Mode, the pigmentation-less cross eyes are.


Both sides have a point. His usage of pigmentation-less cross eyes leans towards Naruto still having SPSM due to it never being seen anywhere else. However, it is NOT definitive for this reason:
*Spoiler*: _Madara is completely confused as to why Naruto is suddenly stronger_ 






Madara takes no note of the eyes even though he already knew Naruto had sage mode and knew the difference between his own current state and the sage mode he stole from Hashirama. If the pigmentation-less eyes are truly the indicator *how the hell is Madara still demonstrably clueless while staring directly into Naruto's eyes?!* It is not until Naruto boots up his cloak that Madara directly likens Naruto's current state to his own. The Sixth Paths seal on the back is *clearly* emphasized for a reason, during Madara's realization. It has been seen on every Rikudou sage thus far. If Naruto doesn't bear that mark it is problematic at best. So at this point things remain uncertain. Knowing Kishi, it could go either way.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

^

The first picture you cite implies Naruto can apply the RSM on different levels, the RSM cloak being the max level.


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## The Faceless Man (May 24, 2015)

From what we know Sasuke still has the sharinngan so if that is the case and sasuke didnt lose his indra power, then i doubt naruto lost his ashura power of having RSM

If naruto lost his ashura power then Sasuke only has EMS ? 
That would make sasuke at EMS Madara level.

It would be to big of a nerf for Sasuke.
Tho its possible cuz villains might not be god lik people.


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## CyberianGinseng (May 24, 2015)

The Faceless Man said:


> Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
> 
> 
> > ^
> ...


That's why I say both sides have a point and it can go either way.


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## The Undying (May 24, 2015)

I don't think I would particularly mind if Naruto and Sasuke did lose the powers bestowed by Hagoromo. They could still be on par with, say, Hashirama at least, which is already extremely powerful and slightly more realistic for the ninja setting than all the ridiculous godlike Super Saiyan stuff we saw from the Juubi Jins and Kaguya.

I guess I just don't see how it matters much at this point.


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## Raiken (May 25, 2015)

Yeah Cyberian, as I've said before, there are implications for SPSM and BM/BSM.

Chakra not covering parts of his body and cross pupils without pigmentation implies SPSM, as that is the only place where we've seen those features.

But the primary indicators for having SPSM are not present in his current Mode, the Six Paths Sage Seal Markings and Gudoudama; as well as the Seal pattern looking almost exactly the same as his old Bijuu Mode. All large indicators of BM/BSM.

So based on the fact that:

Primary indicators of SPSM are NOT present.
But the Secondary indicators of SPSM ARE present.

That implies to me that those secondary features, lack of Sage Pigmentation and Chakra not covering parts of the body, are simply a symptom of Six Paths Sage Mode, but not a direct indicator of it.

I think the reason for lack of Sage Pigmentation is basically:

Before I believe he essentially overlapped the Modes, SM and BM on top of each other; like against JJ Obito.
While what he used against Shin was a true combination of BM and SM.
But not SPSM.

This might essentially be "Perfect" BSM
But not RSM.

The reason we already seen those features in SPSM, despite Naruto only just recently overlapping the Modes against JJ Obito.
Is because SPSM provides perfect Chakra intuition and knowledge of all things Chakra essentially.
So it's likely just an automatic perfect merger of the modes when using all 9 Bijuu Chakra with Senjutsu.
While he essentially had to train to get this result.

So perhaps over the years, he trained and developed his KCM/BM to be "Perfected" so he could achieve a more perfect combination of KCM/BM and SM.
While SPSM has a perfect combination automatically.


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## shade0180 (May 25, 2015)

The problem with your theory is SM killed it.. because his SM retained the eye detail...


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## CyberianGinseng (May 25, 2015)

With the current information, a few things have to be acknowledged as I see it.

1) Kishi's made so many mistakes at the end of Naruto that this may all be an art error. He forgot to add Hashirama's face to Madara's chest for gods sake. That's a bit worse than remembering to add the sage's seal to Naruto's cloak. Kishi may have simply dropped the ball yet again.

2) It is no longer valid to say if Naruto still had Rikudou Sage Mode then he would've used it in The Last. We now see him using a *higher* mode in Gaiden than we saw him use in The Last so that completely torpedoes that line of argument. Not that you were still arguing that, Cryorex, but I think it needs to be stated out loud.

3) *At the present time,* there is no clear way to distinguish between Naruto having temporarily or permanently lost Rikudou mode and to simply not be using it as it hasn't been required. He may indeed have each and every mode he's acquired since mastering Kurama and is simply choosing which one he wants to use. Normal sage mode usage bolsters this argument.


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## TRN (May 25, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Yeah Cyberian, as I've said before, there are implications for SPSM and BM/BSM.
> 
> Chakra not covering parts of his body and cross pupils without pigmentation implies SPSM, as that is the only place where we've seen those features.
> 
> ...



Kishimoto never link No Sage Pigmentation to this new thing you came up with call Perfect BSM.   He link it to RSM that kick Jubbi Mardara truth seeker balls back 

No Sage Pigmentation= Beyond Sage Mode =Senjutsu of the sage of six paths

You just now made up a new mode for naruto, for he already had 50% kurama Perfect BSM when he fought Jubbi obito cryorex



CyberianGinseng said:


> With the current information, a few things have to be acknowledged as I see it.
> 
> 1) Kishi's made so many mistakes at the end of Naruto that this may all be an art error. He forgot to add Hashirama's face to Madara's chest for gods sake. That's a bit worse than remembering to add the sage's seal to Naruto's cloak. Kishi may have simply dropped the ball yet again.
> 
> ...



Using Studio Pierrot Movie fillers to support ones theory


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## CyberianGinseng (May 25, 2015)

TRN said:


> Kishimoto never link No Sage Pigmentation to this new thing you came up with call Perfect BSM.   He link it to RSM that kick Jubbi Mardara truth seeker balls back
> 
> No Sage Pigmentation= Beyond Sage Mode =Senjutsu of the sage of six paths
> 
> You just now made up a new mode for naruto, for he already had 50% kurama Perfect BSM when he fought Jubbi obito cryorex


You fail to acknowledge that while Kishi did emphasize the no pigmentation sage mode as apart of Naruto's Rikudou upgrade, Kishi also gave particular emphasis to the seal on Naruto's cloak being representative of Rikudou Sage Mode. Madara doesn't even realize Naruto has obtained a new sage mode UNTIL he sees Naruto wearing a Sage cloak with that seal on it. That's problematic for your side of the argument.


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## shade0180 (May 25, 2015)

Did you even think that he might not have the ability to detect or have any knowledge about different types of sage mode. 

Madara has a second hand knowledge of sage mode.. By stealing hashirama's SM. He was able to access it. It doesn't mean he is knowledgeable to the type of existing sage mode or even anything that has a connection to sage mode Unlike Naruto or Hashirama.


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## TRN (May 25, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> You fail to acknowledge that while Kishi did emphasize the no pigmentation sage mode as apart of Naruto's Rikudou upgrade, Kishi also gave particular emphasis to the seal on Naruto's cloak being representative of Rikudou Sage Mode. Madara doesn't even realize Naruto has obtained a new sage mode UNTIL he sees Naruto wearing a Sage cloak with that seal on it. That's problematic for your side of the argument.



Without the Cloak=Base Kurama Senjutu of Six Path

WIth the Eye Cloak=Kurama Bijuu Mode Senjutsu of Six Path

What We Saw In this Chapter=100% Kurama Chakra Mode Senjutsu of Six Path -It look almost like Bijuu Mode mix with Base Senjusu of Six Path because Kurama is 100% and not 50%

Naruto said to Kurama in this Chapter  "only a little"   Not full Bijuu Link 

DONE


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## tkpirate (May 25, 2015)

this thread is full of fanfics

yet to see a six paths Senjutsu user without Rinnegan and tomoe markings on their back.so either the mode in the last chapter wasn't six paths Senjutsu or it was a art fuck up from Kishi.we probably will need to see him transform again and fight seriously to be sure.

also even if it's not six paths Senjutsu,it dosen't mean he lost it.even if he did lose it,he can basically get it back anytime,all he would need is little amount of chakra from all the Bijuu's.and all Bijuu being his friend,it wouldn't be a problem.


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## Klue (May 25, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Did you even think that he might not have the ability to detect or have any knowledge about different types of sage mode.
> 
> Madara has a second hand knowledge of sage mode.. By stealing hashirama's SM. He was able to access it. It doesn't mean he is knowledgeable to the type of existing sage mode or even anything that has a connection to sage mode Unlike Naruto or Hashirama.



Looks to me that you're over complicating the argument by throwing in random variables that sound good. Author made no effort to lead the reader to believe Madara is incapable of accurately differentiating one type from another.

In fact, it was the same Madara that confirmed the nature of not only Sasuke's new left eye, but Naruto's new transformation.

Lack of pigmentation is a shared trait amongst SPSM users, but something that wasn't emphasized, nor is there really any language that suggest all Sage Mode users (those that aren't using the SP variant) *must have it*.

I think the lack of pigmentation is far less important then the missing Rinnegan-Nine-Tomoe back design, and lack of even a single _Gudōdama_.


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## CyberianGinseng (May 25, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Did you even think that he might not have the ability to detect or have any knowledge about different types of sage mode.
> 
> Madara has a second hand knowledge of sage mode.. By stealing hashirama's SM. He was able to access it. It doesn't mean he is knowledgeable to the type of existing sage mode or even anything that has a connection to sage mode Unlike Naruto or Hashirama.


Detect? No. Sage mode itself gave him that ability.Unless you believe he can only sense eyeballs and not the quality of chakra.

Knowledge? Of course. However, Madara being pretty quick on the uptake should nix that right in the bud. He can FEEL the difference having been in both modes. He also is quick to note Sasuke's eye change, but not Narutos?

But as soon as Naruto puts on a cloak (remember he'd worn a couple of cloaks before) he notes it *with the seal being emphasized in a single panel along with Madara calling the mode by name.*

*There's no way around that,* much as folks seem to want it to be so.





TRN said:


> Without the Cloak=Base Kurama Senjutu of Six Path
> 
> WIth the Eye Cloak=Kurama Bijuu Mode Senjutsu of Six Path
> 
> ...


Yeah...* I'm not talking about the cloak*. The cloak is irrelevant. I'm talking about the seal on the cloak, which was emphasized as being indicative of Sixth Path's Sage Mode in the same panel where Madara gives it its fucking name:How in hell can you ignore that?!

100% Kurama gives no explanation as to why that seal is missing. It can only be missing because 1) Naruto lost the mode either temporarily or permanently, 2) Naruto's choosing not to use the mode, 3) Kishi fucked up, 4) Retcon.

Talk all the shit you want about "DONE, " but your argument's done "DONE" all it can do to FAIL until you've properly addressed that.


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## D4truf (May 25, 2015)

Maybe Naruto can conjure up the Bijuu's power similar to gathering Natural energy. It could provide us a more balanced Naruto power-up. He would only be in Rikudo mode for a finite time. 

The Jubi was linked to natural energy and Naruto was able to sense it. Naruto received a Chakra link from each Bijuu, which could allow him to summon their strength similar to a summoning contract. 

*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 








P.S. 

If Naruto lost Rikudo mode, is it fair to assume that Sasuke lost the tomoe on his Rinnegan?


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## Adrian94 (May 25, 2015)

I did somme research and found that neither sasuke nor naruto lost their powers from hagoromo sasuke still can use the rinnegan  as for naruto's tailed beast mode and six paths sage mode they just changed in appearence since now naruto has   sealed inside him the full kurama and they became more powerfull too . the kyuubi chakra mode changed from the one he got when he extracted power from kurama after the tug-o-war to the one he had in the last movie the six paths chakra mode changed from the one he activated when he got the powers from hagoromo to the one he used in chapter 4 of naruto gaiden and he still has the 9 tomoe seals on his back and all the powers he had when he enterd the six paths chakra mode maybe in the movie he didn't wanna go full strenght on toneri i mean he soloed him with a single punch.as for the truth seeking balls i think he can stilluse them he just doesen't want to.


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## TRN (May 25, 2015)

Klue said:


> Looks to me that you're over complicating the argument by throwing in random variables that sound good. Author made no effort to lead the reader to believe Madara is incapable of accurately differentiating one type from another.
> 
> In fact, it was the same Madara that confirmed the nature of not only Sasuke's new left eye, but Naruto's new transformation.
> 
> ...





CyberianGinseng said:


> Detect? No. Sage mode itself gave him that ability.Unless you believe he can only sense eyeballs and not the quality of chakra.
> 
> Knowledge? Of course. However, Madara being pretty quick on the uptake should nix that right in the bud. He can FEEL the difference having been in both modes. He also is quick to note Sasuke's eye change, but not Narutos?
> 
> ...





D4truf said:


> Maybe Naruto can conjure up the Bijuu's power similar to gathering Natural energy. It could provide us a more balanced Naruto power-up. He would only be in Rikudo mode for a finite time.
> 
> The Jubi was linked to natural energy and Naruto was able to sense it. Naruto received a Chakra link from each Bijuu, which could allow him to summon their strength similar to a summoning contract.
> 
> ...


naruto senjutsu of the six paths doesn't come from the other bijuus  He only had the other bijuu chakra so he could free them from the Host of Juubi.

Believe whateve you want, come this Baruto the movie prepare to be owned again	

I'm out this thread until Baruto the movie


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## CyberianGinseng (May 25, 2015)

TRN said:


> *naruto senjutsu of the six paths doesn't come from the other bijuus  He only had the other bijuu chakra so he could free them from the Host of Juubi.*
> 
> Believe whateve you want, come this Baruto the movie be prepare to be owned again
> 
> I'm out this thread until Baruto the movie


Quote where I actually say this or don't quote me at all.


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## Raiken (May 25, 2015)

TRN said:


> naruto senjutsu of the six paths doesn't come from the other bijuus  He only had the other bijuu chakra so he could free them from the Host of Juubi.
> 
> Believe whateve you want, come this Baruto the movie prepare to be owned again
> 
> I'm out this thread until Baruto the movie


What is the Juubi made of TRN?
Chakra of the 9 Bijuu housed in the Gedo Mazou, which is essentially the Husk of the Juubi, the Juubi being the fused entity of Kaguya and the Shinju.
The Juubi apparently being a super powerful form of Senjutsu.
What happens someone absorbs the Juubi into themselves? They automatically gain Six Paths Senjutsu.

Obito and Madara gained Six Paths Senjutsu by Sealing the Juubi into themselves.
Naruto gained Six Paths Senjutsu through combining the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu with his own Senjutsu.

That IS how it is TRN, you are simply outright... wrong.

The only viable explanation that doesn't have something that contradicts it, is that Naruto simply must have trained to have a more perfect combination of his Kyuubi Chakra Modes and Sage Mode, rather than overlapping them.
The result is what we seen against Shin, a kind of "Perfected" BSM.

Essentially how it is:

Against JJ Obito:
Bijuu Mode+Sage Mode

Against JJ Madara/Kaguya
Six Paths Sage Mode

Against Shin
Bijuu Sage Mode


shade0180 said:


> The problem with your theory is SM killed it.. because his SM retained the eye detail...


The theory implies that he only looses the pigmentation once he uses Bijuu Mode and Senjutsu in sync together.
When he uses his Sage Mode in Base, it still has the pigmentation.

Basically he doesn't like overlap them any-more, they function perfectly together as one Mode.
It could be that he uses the Senjutsu through the Seal with Kurama in some way, and this is the result.


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## The Undying (May 25, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> 1) Kishi's made so many mistakes at the end of Naruto that this may all be an art error. He forgot to add Hashirama's face to Madara's chest for gods sake. That's a bit worse than remembering to add the sage's seal to Naruto's cloak. Kishi may have simply dropped the ball yet again.



I'm starting to suspect this above all else. Kishimoto has introduced so many variations of the Bijuu Mode cloak that I'm honestly not sure he's keeping track of them anymore. I feel like he's drawing things purely from memory, which may explain the mixing of attributes exclusive to different forms. Actually, I don't even think he has a specific level of strength in mind for Naruto at this point aside from just "This guy's really formidable".

If this happens to be intentional, I'm gonna bet that Naruto either lost the form or wasn't using it at the time.


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## LiquidCobra (May 26, 2015)

This thread is like saying Goku can't go SSJ3 because he didn't against Vegata in the Buu Saga. He probably doesn't because he doesn't NEED to. I'm going to go on that until proven other wise. 


It's just like Madara said. Who'd get that serious against a child?


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## Akiretsu (May 26, 2015)

Are we seriously doing this? 9 pages of this? 

Naruto has 3 types of Chakra in him:

-100% Kurama's Chakra
-Biju's Chakra
-50% Hagoromo's Chakra

When Naruto uses SM with Kyuubi chakra, it results in the eyes with the SM pigmentation coloring. I think that the pigmentation leaves when Naruto taps into Hagoromo's chakra as expressed here Alone:


He only becomes like a Juubi jin when he uses all Biju Chakra. This will be when he gets the Cloak with the Rinnegan symbol and tomoe on his back. 
_____________________________________________

All of that makes sense. Naruto can still use all of his Kyuubi forms and SM stuff, but the pigmentation leaves when he taps into Hagoromo's chakra and it makes him stronger simultaneously. Think about it .


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## Raiken (May 26, 2015)

Akiretsu said:


> All of that makes sense. Naruto can still use all of his Kyuubi forms and SM stuff, but the pigmentation leaves when he taps into Hagoromo's chakra and it makes him stronger simultaneously. Think about it .


It's basically one of these two things:

This is Naruto's BSM while using Hagaromo's Yang Chakra.
The only way this can work is if Hagaromo's Yang Chakra is something that can be turned off and on, because the previous Chapter showed Naruto with the Pigmentation.

Or when Naruto uses Senjutsu through his Fuinjutsu instead of his Body, it results in the BSM we seen against Shin.

Six Paths Sage Mode likely also used Senjutsu through the Fuinjutsu as opposed to his Body.
Because we have never seen Horizontal Pupils without Sage Pigmentation have we, it's always been when combined with some level of Kyuubi Chakra.
I think with Six Paths Sage Mode, the 9 Bijuu's Chakra together automatically generates Sage Chakra without Naruto having to do anything.
Without the other 8 Bijuu Chakra fragments, Naruto likely trained to use Senjutsu through his Fuinjutsu like back then.

Now despite whether he lost Hagaromo's Yang Chakra when he Sealed Kaguya.
If he didn't and he still has it, it is likely something that is active all the time as part of his Base Chakra, and cannot be turned on and off.
I guess if 100% KCM Naruto can defeat Toneri, he must have still had Hagaromo's Yang Chakra.


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## Akiretsu (May 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> It's basically one of these two things:
> 
> *This is Naruto's BSM while using Hagaromo's Yang Chakra.*
> The only way this can work is if Hagaromo's Yang Chakra is something that can be turned off and on, because the previous Chapter showed Naruto with the Pigmentation.
> ...


I think it's just BSM with Hags Chakra in the mix. And you don't have to do mental olympics to get this. It's not that complicated. As Naruto showed with the Chakra from Kyuubi, he can store Chakras in different areas of himself. Otherwise he would have always been in KCM. 

The fact that it took Sasuke until the Last to Deactivate Rinnegan, shows that Hagoromo's Chakra can be deactivated being that the Rinnegan like Sharingan as Tobirama explain, is a byproduct of Hagoromo's Chakra. 

So yes, you can say that Hagoromo's chakra couldn't be deactivated During Sasuke and Naruto's fight whic is why he has no pigmentation in Kyuubi Sage mode, but that just means when the Last came out, Naruto and Sasuke mastered their chakra to a point where it didn't need to be active at all times. Thats why you see Naruto going regular SM and KCM or BM or BSM with the pigmentation and Sasuke without Rinnegan until it's active. 

All this means is that Naruto didn't use Hagoromo's chakra or Biju Chakra against Toneri and in Naruto Gaiden Ch. 4, he used Hagoromo's Chakra + BSM.

And if you try to bring up the _"Why Naruto didn't use it against Toneri if he was fighting for his life?"_ argument, just know that is a subjective view. To me it didn't look like Naruto was fighting for his life, it just looked like he Mid-diffed Toneri. 

Nothing Says or implies he lost it in canon. If anything it implies and shows us he's gotten more experienced with it and powerful without it. 
________________________________________________________________
It'll just be easier if someone asks Kishimoto when he goes to New York.


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## Raiken (May 26, 2015)

Akiretsu said:


> I think it's just BSM with Hags Chakra in the mix. And you don't have to do mental olympics to get this. It's not that complicated. As Naruto showed with the Chakra from Kyuubi, he can store Chakras in different areas of himself. Otherwise he would have always been in KCM.
> 
> The fact that it took Sasuke until the Last to Deactivate Rinnegan, shows that Hagoromo's Chakra can be deactivated being that the Rinnegan like Sharingan as Tobirama explain, is a byproduct of Hagoromo's Chakra.
> 
> ...



Yeah that can work.

Personally I prefer the idea of Naruto using Senjutsu through his Fuinjutsu as opposed to his body, and that's where the difference comes from.

But yeah, both can work.


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## The Faceless Man (May 27, 2015)

*Naruto and Sasuke lost the power up that Hagaromo gaved them !?*

I think that both Naruto and Sasuke might have lost the power ups that Hagaramo gaved them.

Naruto new chakra mode that was usd vs Shin... lacked the hair spikes of hagaromo and the magtama necklace with 6 tomoe who was a symbol in all of his chakra forms.... and that is a important fact.

Im thinking Sasuke only has EMS right now with full PS and all that stuff and Naruto has BSM
I doubt Kishi will nerf just one of them and not both.

And this makes sense cuz if both of them are that OP, no fucking villain could be a threat for them or the world.


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## RAGING BONER (May 27, 2015)

Saski had rinnegration in Za Rasto Naruto za movie


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## The Faceless Man (May 27, 2015)

RAGING BONER said:


> Saski had rinnegration in Za Rasto Naruto za movie



But not in the current Gaiden.


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## Six (May 27, 2015)

The Faceless Man said:


> I think that both Naruto and Sasuke might have lost the power ups that Hagaramo gaved them.
> 
> Naruto new chakra mode that was usd vs Shin... lacked the hair spikes of hagaromo and the magtama necklace with 6 tomoe who was a symbol in all of his chakra forms.... and that is a important fact.
> 
> ...


Naruto has short hair now dude. But yeah it's looking like he lost it. Sasuke had the rinnegan in The Last.


RAGING BONER said:


> Saski had rinnegration in Za Rasto Naruto za movie


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## Raiken (May 27, 2015)

We have no idea what the significance of not having the traditional 6 Tomoe present.
Which have been around since the original KCM.

The lack of hair horns is because the Chakra in the Mode we seen in the Gaiden is not on his Hair.
You will notice that the Chakra is just on his Clothes, not his body. My Avatar shows what the Mode looks like, his hair is his normal blond in that state.

Sasuke likely still has his Rinnegan, he still had it in The Last.
And he's covering his left eye, likely indicating him still having the Rinnegan.

While I do believe Naruto lost some elements of his power, to which there's been a massive thread before now about just that; what you listed aren't really any indicators of such.
The lack of the neckless Tomoe's is interesting though, not sure what to make of it.


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## The Faceless Man (May 27, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> We have no idea what the significance of not having the traditional 6 Tomoe present.
> Which have been around since the original KCM.
> 
> The lack of hair horns is because the Chakra in the Mode we seen in the Gaiden is not on his Hair.
> ...



I see.... still its weird... it looks incomplete.
That bold part is my problem... he always had that as connection to hagaromo. Now its gone so....


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## spiritmight (May 27, 2015)

DEAR GOD HOW MANY TIMES MUST THIS THREAD BE MADE MAN


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## TRN (May 27, 2015)

Minato had the Tomoe'

So I guess he had RSM


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## Raiken (May 27, 2015)

The Faceless Man said:


> I see.... still its weird... it looks incomplete.
> That bold part is my problem... he always had that as connection to hagaromo. Now its gone so....


I don't think we should worry about the chest/neck Tomoe's too much, there are other far more significant indications of what kind of power he is using, like the lack of Sage Pigmentation, Cross Pupils and lack of the 9 Tomoe Rinnegan Circle Seal Marking on his back.

The lack of Chakra Hair Horns and his 6 Tomoe on the front are not really as important indicators of anything to our knowledge.
The lack of the 6 Tomoe could have been an art error, who knows...

Also OP, it can make sense that Naruto be nerfed but not Sasuke, as Naruto was more powerful than Sasuke anyway, so evening them out wouldn't be a big deal.


spiritmight said:


> DEAR GOD HOW MANY TIMES MUST THIS THREAD BE MADE MAN


As many times as it takes... :^)


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## StickaStick (May 27, 2015)

Does anyone really care? They're still >>>>>>> anyone else currently living that we know of.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 27, 2015)

The yin seal and yang seal and the move that came from it? Yes.

The rinnegan and six paths sage mode? No



> Does anyone really care? They're still >>>>>>> anyone else currently living that we know of.


Out of any character in this series naruto and sasuke are the ones that fans seemingly want depowered the most. The reasons vary between "why they get to be that strong" and "powerlevels ruined the manga" but yeah...


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## Raiken (Jun 28, 2015)

*Misconception about BSM Naruto and SM Skin Pigmentation.*

In this post, I'm going to talk about a misconception about the nature of BSM Naruto's power and how it can lead onto further thought on the implications of Naruto's current lack of Sage pigmentation while using Senjutsu.

*SM did not scale with BM*

When Naruto first started to combine SM and his BM against JJ Obito.
A lot of people understandably thought that SM would increase Naruto's BM as far as stats were concerned as much as SM boosts his Base. This is incorrect.

When Naruto enters Sage Mode, he mixes his own Physical and Spiritual Energy with Natural Energy to create Sage Chakra, while that Sage Chakra is running through his Chakra Network, he's in Sage Mode.

With Naruto's Kyuubi Chakra that comes from his Seal, what happens is he is combining a Kyuubi Chakra state with SM and both the Kyuubi Chakra and Sage Chakra are simply running through his chakra network at the same time; at that point they are combined, but they are not created together.

What I'm saying simplified is, Naruto does not use his Kyuubi Chakra to create Sage Chakra, he is still just using his Base Physical and Spiritual Energy to create Sage Chakra, which is simply mixed in with the Kyuubi Chakra running through his Chakra Network.

Basically:

SM Naruto >> Base Naruto
_So naturally you might think..._
BSM Naruto >> BM Naruto
_but it's more like..._
BSM Naruto => or > BM Naruto
_essentially, BSM Naruto is not much more powerful than BM Naruto, the main advantage is the addition of Sage Sensing._

The reason is because, SM did not scale with BM because Naruto never used his Kyuubi Chakra to create Sage Chakra.

*Naruto's SPSM and current BM*

Now, after Obito and Hagaromo's intervention, Naruto obtained Six Paths Sage Mode, which is the ultimate form of Sage Mode essentially.

Naruto now in this state lacks the Sage Pigmentation around his eyes when using Senjutsu.
Most people believe that it was because of Hagaromo somehow and that the lack of the pigmentation is a direct result of using SPSM.
While it is true that SPSM does get rid of the eye pigmentation, it is not an indicator of if he is using SPSM or not.
Basically, SPSM does cause you to loose the pigmentation, but it is not a direct result of the mode.
The way Naruto's SPSM works does *something* that is needed to use SPSM, and it is that *something* that causes the lack of skin pigmentation

The difference between eye pigmentation or no eye pigmentation is in *how he is using Senjutsu.*

When Naruto has the Pigmentation around his eyes, he is using Senjutsu with his own body's energies, combining his own physical and spiritual energies with natural energy.
That Sage Chakra is his standard Sage Mode and what is also combined with his old BM in the past.

What started to happen after Naruto gained the Chakra of all 9 Bijuu and Hagaromo's Yang Chakra, was instead of using his Base energies to create Sage Chakra, Naruto's Sage Chakra was being created using the Bijuu Chakra inside the Seal.

Supporting this is the fact that:
1: Senjutsu needs to be combined with the 9-Bijuu's Chakra to create Six Paths Sage Chakra in the first place.
2: Kurama was gathering Natural Energy when fighting Sasuke.

So concluding:

When using Natural Energy with his Physical and Spiritual Energy = Sage Mode w/ Eye Pigmentation

When using Natural Energy collected and combined with Bijuu Chakra through the Seal = Sage Mode w/o Eye Pigmentation

As I was saying before, Six Paths Sage Mode causes there to be a lack of eye pigmentation, but it is not a "direct" result of the mode specifically.

Perhaps obtainiing SPSM automatically enabled that process of gathering Natural Energy through the Seal to be combined with Bijuu Chakra.
Now since he is experienced using Senjutsu through the Seal as opposed to with his Body, he simply retained the ability to do that after loosing "if he has lost it" or while not using, Six Paths Sage Mode.

Now current Naruto in the Gaiden.

So far he has not used Six Paths Sage Mode, because he chose not to or has lost it, and only uses what appears to be Bijuu Mode.

However he lacks the eye pigmentation, so many people jumped the gun saying, he's using SPSM... NO.
It's because he's combining Natural Energy with his Kyuubi Chakra in the Seal to create the Sage Chakra.

We see him earlier using Sage Mode with the pigmentation in his normal state, as the Sage Chakra was created from his Physical and Spiritual Energies, using his Body as opposed to the Seal.



> P.S.
> 
> A good way I like to distinguish the two versions of BM Naruto using Senjutsu are:
> 
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 28, 2015)

You're saying a lot of things which contradicts the manga.

1] The explanation of SM says the pigmentation is a must; it is a sign someone's using SM. 

2] SM is said to rapidly increase the capabilities of whoever is using it. If base Naruto uses it, then his capabilities are rapidly increased. If BM Naruto uses it, then his capabilities are rapidly increased. The benefit of SM are a bonus.

3] Rikudou Senjutsu is characterised by having the BSM eyes while having the capability to use natural energy without the presence of the SM pigmentation. It stands to reason that no sage pigmentation with Bijuu-sage eyes means Naruto is using RSM.

4] RSM has shown different levels, from Naruto using in base/a KN0 type of mode, to Naruto using it with some sort of shroud, to Naruto using it with BM to finally going _full_ RSM. 

Speculate as much as you want, but if what you're saying contradicts what manga pages say, then you're not going to get much support about from the obvious users/fandoms who would support it regardless.

SM is using Naruto's current mental and body energy alongside natural energy. Natural energy is the outside source introduced. A sign it is successfully introduced is the sage pigmentation with no toad characteristics, in Naruto's case.

Now Kishimoto differentiated this SM from the Rikudou version by ensuring the Rikudou version lacks the pigmentation. Nothing substantive has been introduced to challenge this notion.

As for why Naruto hasn't used it? Why does he really need to use that much power? Sasuke showed his full powers were more than what was needed to tackle Shin. Same applies to Naruto.

Now the only logical, and sensible, speculation for Naruto is that the Rikudou Senjutsu has in a sense overridden some aspects of his previous Bijuu transformations: they'll all have the RSM pupils. Signifying that beyond BM, he's got RSM.


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## Raiken (Jun 29, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're saying a lot of things which contradicts the manga.


 I have said NOTHING that contradicts the Manga.



> 1] The explanation of SM says the pigmentation is a must; it is a sign someone's using SM.


When reffering to someone using their own power/body to create Sage Chakra. 
If you want to go ahead and apply that logic to all Senjutsu like you are doing, why don't Juubi Jinchuuriki's have eye pigmentation??


> 2] SM is said to rapidly increase the capabilities of whoever is using it. If base Naruto uses it, then his capabilities are rapidly increased. If BM Naruto uses it, then his capabilities are rapidly increased. The benefit of SM are a bonus.


As I'm reading, it's clear you haven't understood anything. It's quite clear than Naruto is not using his Kyuubi Chakra to create the Sage Chakra, but his Base Energies.
Sage Chakra is created in a single hit, and lasts until it runs out.
The amount of Sage Chakra you can create, which is what dictates how powerful your Sage Mode will be, is how much normal power you use to combine with Natural Energy. And clearly, a Bijuu >>> Naruto's Base.
You can see that they're distinctly separate in how when he lost BM, but still had SM on after JJ Obito fucked his shit up.



> 3] Rikudou Senjutsu is characterised by having the BSM eyes while having the capability to use natural energy without the presence of the SM pigmentation. It stands to reason that no sage pigmentation with Bijuu-sage eyes means Naruto is using RSM.


Not at all, that's just a massive misconception on your part. The lack of Sage Pigmentation as explained is far more likely simply a result of how SPSM works, but not a direct indicator of using SPSM.
The primary indicators of SPSM are the 9 Tomoe and Rinnegan Seal Pattern.


> 4] RSM has shown different levels, from Naruto using in base/a KN0 type of mode, to Naruto using it with some sort of shroud, to Naruto using it with BM to finally going _full_ RSM.


For the KN0 type look, that's simply SM Naruto while Synced with the 9 Bijuu, yes that is a version of SPSM, without the Chakra Shroud.

With the Shroud it is essentially the amped up Chakra Mode version of SPSM.

And here is where you are wrong again, the distinct differences in Seal Pattern, and how what is used in the Gaiden looks nothing like the SPSM look, but looks exactly the same almost when compared to his old BM Seal Pattern.
And the PRIMARY indicator of using SPSM, the 9 Tomoe & Rinnegan Seal Pattern on his back is not present.
All those factors together strongly implies that Naruto is not using RSM but a form of BM which JUST LIKE RSM, also does not have the SM eye pigmentation, and part of the purpose of this thread was to explain why.
Because the Gaiden clearly indicates that the lack of eye pigmentation is not a direct indicator of SPSM and must becaused by something else, something else that also happens when using SPSM, but now can also be applied to BM. 


> Speculate as much as you want, but if what you're saying contradicts what manga pages say, then you're not going to get much support about from the obvious users/fandoms who would support it regardless.


Yes I am speculating, as are you. You say it as if you are not and I am, don't be so arrogant.
What I'm speculating is credible and believable, in no way am I reaching or being outlandish in what I'm suggesting.


*Spoiler*: __ 



SM is using Naruto's current mental and body energy alongside natural energy. Natural energy is the outside source introduced. A sign it is successfully introduced is the sage pigmentation with no toad characteristics, in Naruto's case.



When using SPSM,  the Natural Energy has to be combined with the 9-Bijuu's Chakra to re-create Six Paths Sage Chakra, i.e. the Juubi's Chakra.
It would not make sense if it used Naruto's Base Energies.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Now Kishimoto differentiated this SM from the Rikudou version by ensuring the Rikudou version lacks the pigmentation. Nothing substantive has been introduced to challenge this notion.



Except in the Gaiden, as explained, he's clearly not using SPSM, yet has no eye pigmentation, shooting that whole statement out of the water.


> As for why Naruto hasn't used it? Why does he really need to use that much power? Sasuke showed his full powers were more than what was needed to tackle Shin. Same applies to Naruto.


Err, what... First you're saying what he used in the Gaiden is a form of SPSM, now he hasn't used it yet? Or are you saying he's been using a lessor SPSM in the Gaiden and just hasn't used it to it's full extent or some shit. I'm not sure if you actually understand what SPSM is.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 29, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> When using SPSM,  the Natural Energy has to be combined with the 9-Bijuu's Chakra to re-create Six Paths Sage Chakra, i.e. the Juubi's Chakra.


Please cite this statment by manga or databook.


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## Raiken (Jun 29, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Please cite this statment by manga or databook.


Are you for real, 90% of threads on this Forum are speculation and you want me to back this up by fact?
This is educated speculation based on understanding of how Chakra works and what has been stated about Naruto's power and what the nature of the Juubi's power is.

Naruto gained what is refereed to the power of Kaguya, i.e, the Juubi Jinchuuriki.
The Juubi is the culmination of the Gedo Mazou "Naruto's Body", the 9 Bijuu "50% Kyuubi+8-Bijuu Chakra Fragments", and Natural Energy "Naruto's Toad Senjutsu".

All of those factors had to be met for Naruto to be able to recreate the Juubi's power with his own powers in his own body.
I theorise it was Hagaromo's Yang Chakra that perhaps allowed Naruto's body to act as a sort of Gedo Mazou and combine the 9-Bijuu's Chakra in it.


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## shade0180 (Jun 29, 2015)

> Naruto gained what is refereed to *the power of Kaguya, i.e, the Juubi Jinchuuriki.*



Just going to say Kaguya's power is not the Juubi jinchuriki though. 



> The Juubi is the culmination of the Gedo Mazou "Naruto's Body"



The Gedo Mazou is not Naruto's body.. in the first place...



> Naruto gained what is refereed to the power of Kaguya, i.e, the Juubi Jinchuuriki.
> The Juubi is the culmination of the Gedo Mazou "Naruto's Body", the 9 Bijuu "50% Kyuubi+8-Bijuu Chakra Fragments", and Natural Energy "Naruto's Toad Senjutsu".


SPSM is different from Toad Senjutsu... 

there are 3 kinds of Senjutsu shown in the manga before SPSM is introduced

Snake
Frog
And Hashirama..
and none of them are said to be the same to SPSM or to each other..



> I theorise it was Hagaromo's Yang Chakra that perhaps allowed Naruto's body to act as a sort of Gedo Mazou and combine the 9-Bijuu's Chakra in it..



It really isn't... it was Naruto's mastery to handle different chakra types.. did you miss the whole part where it was said he can control the compatibility of chakra's... hence the chakra cloak given to the army.


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## Raiken (Jun 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Just going to say Kaguya is not the Juubi jinchuriki though.


The Juubi is Kaguya after absorbing the Shinju, becoming a Juubi Jinchuuriki allows you to gain that power.
Maybe the way I worded what I was saying implied something different.


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## shade0180 (Jun 29, 2015)

> The Juubi is Kaguya after absorbing the Shinju



The Juubi is kaguya after becoming enraged  same shit. there still is a difference but whatever



> becoming a Juubi Jinchuuriki allows you to gain that power.



Just a portion of the power.. not all. hence madara/obito/hagoromo not accessing kaguya's special dimension.


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## Raiken (Jun 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Just a portion of the power.. not all. hence madara/obito/hagoromo not accessing kaguya's special dimension.


Yeah I agree.

Just as Hagaromo when referring to 1 Eyed JJ Madara, was saying he is approaching my level of power, as in Dual Rinnegan & Juubi Jinchuuriki, and that Madara will eventually strive for my Mothers realm of power, the Rinne Sharingan.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 29, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Are you for real.


I am. Becoming JJ is said to be another way of gaining RS powers(4th Databook) : reason is simple you seal into your self a bunny rabbit goddess - the mother of Sage of six paths from whom Rikudo bros inherited RS. And Hagoromo had RS before becoming JJ as well as his bro. And yes Naruto gained RSM solely because of Hagoromo. And i didn't see any cite from you yet.


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 29, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> I am. Becoming JJ is said to be another way of gaining RS powers(4th Databook) : reason is simple you seal into your self a bunny rabbit goddess - the mother of Sage of six paths from whom Rikudo bros inherited RS. And Hagoromo had RS before becoming JJ as well as his bro. And yes Naruto gained RSM solely because of Hagoromo. And i didn't see any cite from you yet.



Wrong, it wasn't solely because of Hagoromo. He had Obito's remenants of Sage Chakra to thank for that as well.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 29, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> Wrong, it wasn't solely because of Hagoromo. He had Obito's remenants of Sage Chakra to thank for that as well.


Cite that please, show me where Obito did share his Sage Chakra with Naruto. Only thing he did is take little of 1 and 8 tails chakra because he thought it will require same chakra tug of war with Madara as they did to him.


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## Wrath (Jun 29, 2015)

Assumptions, assumptions, everywhere,
Nor any drop of truth.


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## Raventhal (Jun 29, 2015)

Juubi isn't required. Sasuke used Susanoo as a Gedo.  Naruto uses his body.  Madara confirms that Naruto has half his power.  Sasuke has the Rinnegan so that leaves the Juubi Jin as Naruto's power or its equiv.


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## Raiken (Jun 29, 2015)

Wrath said:


> Assumptions, assumptions, everywhere,
> Nor any drop of truth.


How can there be factual evidence for things that weren't explained by the author at all.
All we have to go on is already established knowledge and points, visual cues and likely implications.

All you can do is speculate and debate the finer details that Kishi failed to explain.

Most believe that the lack of eye pigmentation is a result using SPSM.
It is true that when Naruto is using his SPSM, he looses the eye pigmentation.
However, the main most primary indicator of using SPSM, is the 9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Seal Markings.
Another indicator is the look of the Seal Pattern, in regards to how the lines and black markings go across his body.

Naruto's Mode in the Gaiden:

Seal Pattern: Resembles BM "it's almost identicle to his old BM, and doesn't really look like SPSM's Seal Pattern at all."
Eye Pigmentation: Resembles SPSM "Since the last time we seen the lack of eye pigmentation was when he was using SPSM"
SPSM Seal Markings: Not present "Which is a massive indicator that Naruto is not using SPSM."

This leads you to one conclusion.
That the lack of eye pigmentation when using Sage Mode is not a primary indicator of SPSM.
Because we seen the same feature in BM.
And that it must be caused by something else that happens when using SPSM, and his current BM.

So I attempted to set about to find a reason as to what actually causes the lack of eye pigmentation.
I felt that I found a good reason for it, it makes sense. 
When Naruto lacks the Sage Pigmentation, in all likelihood it is because he is using Senjutsu with his Bijuu Chakra through the Seal instead of his own Bodies Energies.
Which is supported by how Kurama gathers Natural Energy to create Sage Chakra for Naruto when battling against Sasuke.

For SPSM to work, Natural Energy likely has to be combined with the 9-Bijuu's Chakra in order to form what is essentially the Juubi's Chakra.
So obviously it makes sense that Naruto is using his Bijuu Chakra to create Sage Chakra - No Eye Pigmentation.
As opposed to in the past where he used his own Bodies Physical and Spiritual Energies to create Sage Chakra - Eye Pigmentation

Which also ties into the other part of my thread. That when Naruto first combined SM and BM, he was still using his Physical and Spiritual Energy to create Sage Chakra, despite being in BM. Which would imply that the gap between BM and BSM Naruto, would not be very big at all, when compared to the gap between Base and SM Naruto.
This is supported by how Naruto was still in SM after loosing BM against JJ Obito.



Raventhal said:


> Juubi isn't required. Sasuke used Susanoo as a Gedo.  Naruto uses his body.  Madara confirms that Naruto has half his power.  Sasuke has the Rinnegan so that leaves the Juubi Jin as Naruto's power or its equiv.


Who are you actually replying to?


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## The Undying (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm also in the camp that believes Naruto isn't using RSM, but I'm not optimistic that Kishimoto has an in-depth explanation for it. He's created so many forms and variations of those forms that I'm doubtful as to whether he actually keeps track of them enough to keep the designs consistent, really. Dude went over his head in the war arc.


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## SonicTron (Jun 29, 2015)

RSM

Kyuubi himself gathering natural energy for Naruto

Literally, the function of BSM is that Naruto has harmonized his chakra so well that the Kyuubi itself also enters sage mode.

So sage definitely greatly empowers in beast mode.

Case closed


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## Raiken (Jun 29, 2015)

SonicTron said:


> RSM
> 
> Kyuubi himself gathering natural energy for Naruto
> 
> ...


That's kinda what I am saying though.

Old BSM, Naruto was doing the Senjutsu with his own Chakra.
In RSM and new BSM, the Senjutsu is done with his Bijuu Chakra.

RSM and the new BSM being a more "true" combination of Senjutsu and the Chakra Mode.

As I said in my OP, the old one is more like BM+SM, while the new one is a "true" BSM.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> When reffering to someone using their own power/body to create Sage Chakra.
> If you want to go ahead and apply that logic to all Senjutsu like you are doing, why don't Juubi Jinchuuriki's have eye pigmentation??



That logic is applied to all Senjutsu... except one type. The only exception is the Six Paths variant; that's why Juubi Jinchuriki lack eye pigmentation.



> As I'm reading, it's clear you haven't understood anything. It's quite clear than Naruto is not using his Kyuubi Chakra to create the Sage Chakra, but his Base Energies.
> Sage Chakra is created in a single hit, and lasts until it runs out.
> The amount of Sage Chakra you can create, which is what dictates how powerful your Sage Mode will be, is how much normal power you use to combine with Natural Energy. And clearly, a Bijuu >>> Naruto's Base.
> You can see that they're distinctly separate in how when he lost BM, but still had SM on after JJ Obito fucked his shit up.



The only thing clear is that you've not understood anything. My speculation actually has manga support which it extrapolates on; yours does not.

Base energies are used in base mode; that much was made clear.
The energies Naruto has in Kurama Modes is used when he uses SM in those modes. There's a reason why Naruto compared gathering Senjutsu from his base form to Kurama form. Kurama described it as using sage powers while using Kurama's powers.
Within the first link, Naruto says he is gathering natural energy... from my links in my first post we know what gathering natural energy will do to the form that gathers it.

Your assumption, which has no underlying support, presumes that Kurama Mode is ignored in this process without giving a real reason why.

Naruto retaining SM after Juubito owned him doesn't mean that SM doesn't amp BM, it just means that Kurama Mode was shattered, but Naruto still had natural energy within his body.

SM is something that amplifies whatever state the user is in whether it is Bijuu Mode or base mode... the only exception is Rikudou Senjutsu for obvious reasons.



> Not at all, that's just a massive misconception on your part. The lack of Sage Pigmentation as explained is far more likely simply a result of how SPSM works, but not a direct indicator of using SPSM.
> The primary indicators of SPSM are the 9 Tomoe and Rinnegan Seal Pattern.
> 
> And here is where you are wrong again, the distinct differences in Seal Pattern, and how what is used in the Gaiden looks nothing like the SPSM look, but looks exactly the same almost when compared to his old BM Seal Pattern.
> ...



Those indicators you speak of are using SPSM fully, not fragments.

The seal pattern explanation from you makes no sense. What that seal does is essentially make Naruto a pseudo Juubi Jinchuriki. Juubi Jinchuriki use all the Bijuu's chakra, combined, amplified by natural Senjutsu i.e. it uses Rikudou Senjutsu, or SPSM.

It essentially replaces Kurama's power with a sort of Juubi-esque power. So KN0, in a sense becomes JN0 (Juubi Naruto 0); except Kurama is the primary Bijuu due to Naruto containing Kurama fully. 

Your understanding seems to be incorrect. You think SPSM is a power which is only accessible, or finite, by progressing beyond BM. To try and explain the major hole in your theory, the BSM eyes without the pigmentation, you're pretty much disregarding what we know about SM.

Kurama now is no longer the Kurama the series started with, at least as far as Naruto's seal is concerned. It is Kurama with the chakra pieces of the other Bijuu, which when together generate SPSM chakra. Naruto will never use BM or KCM again, because his seal doesn't permit it. They've *all* been replaced with SPSM versions.



> Yes I am speculating, as are you. You say it as if you are not and I am, don't be so arrogant.
> What I'm speculating is credible and believable, in no way am I reaching or being outlandish in what I'm suggesting.



One major difference with our speculation: I can extrapolate with what the manga has given us; you cannot.
Your speculation is not credible nor is it believable because it comes across as forcing certain facts (see your take on SM's mechanisms) to make another theory of yours (Naruto not using SPSM) work.

A speculation which has less reaching or outlandish suggestions is always more credible than one which doesn't. I.E. mine would be more credible as it uses pieces of the manga and statements from the manga which have proved to be true in contrast to yours.



> Except in the Gaiden, as explained, he's clearly not using SPSM, yet has no eye pigmentation, shooting that whole statement out of the water.



Above I said your speculation fails because it goes far away from what the manga has shown or said. That critique is exemplified here: where on earth was it *clear* that Naruto is not using SPSM? A lot of people will tell you that the opposite is the case: it is clear that he is using it, albeit at a lower level.

An understanding not hard to get once you accept that the seal Naruto has contains a Juubified Kurama, not Kurama... which generally means that any Kurama forms will have the SPSM eyes (with natural energy powers) not Kurama eyes.

Naruto used SM, in "The Last" and this Gaiden... pigmentation present. Now considering Kurama is a Juubified Kurama i.e. a Bijuu which provides SPSM chakra... both the Gaiden and "The Last" showed different levels of each: it showed KCM is replaced with its SPSM version and BM is replaced with its SPSM version... We also are aware of its ultimate level: the one with the Rinnegan and tomoe patterns on the back.



> Err, what... First you're saying what he used in the Gaiden is a form of SPSM, now he hasn't used it yet? Or are you saying he's been using a lessor SPSM in the Gaiden and just hasn't used it to it's full extent or some shit. I'm not sure if you actually understand what SPSM is.



I think you've made it clear you didn't get what happened when Naruto obtained SPSM.

All Kurama forms got replaced with their SPSM versions ? e.g. KN0 became SPSM0; BM become SPSM-BM and so on ? while providing Naruto an ultimate form, the form we call Rikudou Sennin Mode, or SPSM.

Why hasn't Naruto used this mode in the Gaiden or against Toneri? As much as people probably don't want to accept it: Shin probably wasn't worthy, a rusty Sasuke (who didn't use any Six Path powers, or Limbo type powers) stomped the guy with Susanoo... which proved to be too much. You think the dude would be able to handle a mode higher than BM? BM isn't appropriate as not is is SPSM-BM; a simple BM is no longer accessible.

Toneri was shown to be not above what SPSM version 1 (the SPSM version of KCM) can handle.

Plus after fighting Rinnegan Sasuke, Naruto has a 100% Kurama serving as the base for all the Bijuu's power, not 50% Kurama. So it stands to reason he'd be stronger... which means the ultimate SPSM (the one with the Rinnegan and tomoe patterns) would be much stronger than what Kayuga, Madara and Sasuke fought.


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## BlinkST (Jun 30, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Cite that please, show me where Obito did share his Sage Chakra with Naruto. Only thing he did is take little of 1 and 8 tails chakra because he thought it will require same chakra tug of war with Madara as they did to him.


Damn, son.



Damn.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 30, 2015)

BlinkST said:


> Damn, son.


And so? Show me where Obito shared it with Naruto. Because even here his Shakujo is still with him
*Spoiler*: __


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## MS81 (Jun 30, 2015)

Raventhal said:


> Juubi isn't required. Sasuke used Susanoo as a Gedo.  Naruto uses his body.  Madara confirms that Naruto has half his power.  Sasuke has the Rinnegan so that leaves the Juubi Jin as Naruto's power or its equiv.



This right here, I always wondered what if Naruto absorbed the shinju tree while having only the six paths body?


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Jun 30, 2015)

Jutsu thats needed to seal/absorb the Shinju all required Rinnegan. And no, Naruto has never had the ability to absorb chakra. Even if he did, he'd blow up like Madara did even with his 2+1 Rinnegan using the correct way.


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## Raiken (Jun 30, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Just going to say Kaguya's power is not the Juubi jinchuriki though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You completely missed the point of what I was saying.

Naruto's Body is not the Gedo Mazou, it substituted it.
Naruto's Toad Senjutsu was what gave him the Natural Energy component.

Naruto's Body w/ Hagaromo's Yang Chakra + 9-Bijuu Chakra + Naruto's Toad Senjutsu = Naruto's SPSM.



Doc Mindstorm said:


> I am. Becoming JJ is said to be another way of gaining RS powers(4th Databook) : reason is simple you seal into your self a bunny rabbit goddess - the mother of Sage of six paths from whom Rikudo bros inherited RS. And Hagoromo had RS before becoming JJ as well as his bro. And yes Naruto gained RSM solely because of Hagoromo. And i didn't see any cite from you yet.


You're one of those guys where for every single topic ever desired to be talked about, you're just like "Proof, cite, in databook?", give it a rest.

Also you're wrong for starters about some of this, you go on about wanting 100% proof, yet don't hold yourself accountable to the same.

Hagaromo & Hamura did not have SPSM, Hagaromo only gained it after he Sealed the Juubi into himself.
As seen by the lack of 9 Tomoe and Rinnegan Markings on their backs.



It's been shown that he could create Gudoudama without being the JJ, but he didn't have SPSM.
However all you need to create Gudoudama is, to be able to manipulate all 5 Nature Releases, Yin & Yang Release and possess Six Paths Sage Chakra - "which he was born with due to being Kaguya's son". But while he had that "kind" of power, he did not actually have SPSM.
That only comes from recreating Kaguya's power within you, either by absorbing the Juubi or by doing what Naruto did.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 30, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> *Hagaromo & Hamura did not have SPSM, Hagaromo only gained it after he Sealed the Juubi into himself.
> As seen by the lack of 9 Tomoe and Rinnegan Markings on their backs.*
> 
> 
> ...


How did they seal Juubi then? Since *Six Paths* Chibaku Tensei is RS jutsu.


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## Raiken (Jun 30, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> How did they seal Juubi then? Since *Six Paths* Chibaku Tensei is RS jutsu.



SPSM is not needed to perform SPCT. SPSM is the power of a Juubi Jinchuuriki, which could otherwise be refereed to the power of Kaguya.
Hagaromo also relates Naruto's power to Kaguya's power.

Chibaku Tensei has been heavily implied to be a Yin-Yang Release technique.
Hagaromo had the Rinnegan w/ Yin-Yang Release, Hamura had the Tenseigan w/ Yin-Yang Release.
Clearly they decided between themselves that Hagaromo would manage the Yang, and Hamura would manage the Yin.
They focused that area of their power into Fuinjutsu's on their palms, while they both have Yin-Yang, Hagaromo focused his Yang, Hamura his Yin.
So when they managed to make contact, they could Seal the Juubi.

Both Naruto and Sasuke also have Yin-Yang release, just like Hagaromo and Hamura, just in different ways.
Naruto has all the Bijuu's Chakra, Bijuu's are comprised of Yin-Yang Chakra; as well as having his own Yang Power.
Sasuke has Ashura+Indra Chakra, which combined is Six Paths Chakra, which is a type of Yin-Yang Chakra, the same that Hagaromo possessed.

While Naruto was compared to Hagaromo and Sasuke to Hamura by Kaguya.
That must have just been in a sense not relating to powers, but how her sons were perhaps.

In regards to powers, it makes far more sense to compare them both to Hagaromo.
Sasuke's powers represent the power Hagaromo was born with, the Rinnegan.
Naruto's powers represent the power Hagaromo gained by sealing the Juubi into himself, SPSM.
Naruto and Sasuke together represent Hagaromo's whole power, just like how Madara had both powers together.

Naruto and Sasuke combined their Seals of Yin and Yang on Kaguya, just like Hagaromo and Hamura did.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Jun 30, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> How did they seal Juubi then? Since *Six Paths* Chibaku Tensei is RS jutsu.



Magic 

No, but really guys Hagoromo had Senjutsu as well as Chakra of the same quality as his mother had.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 30, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> SPSM is not needed to perform SPCT. SPSM is the power of a Juubi Jinchuuriki, which could otherwise be refereed to the power of Kaguya.
> Hagaromo also relates Naruto's power to Kaguya's power.





			
				FF-Suzaku said:
			
		

> Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). *It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu*. "Chibaku Tensei" is the version that can be used by a single individual, while "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" is a more powerful version that requires two individuals simultaneously combining the power of Yin and Yang.


It seem that your arguments are null and void.


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## Raiken (Jun 30, 2015)

TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> Magic
> 
> No, but really guys Hagoromo had Senjutsu as well as Chakra of the same quality as his mother had.


That's what I believe, in all likelyhood, Hagaromo and Hamura were born with Six Paths Sage Chakra, Kaguya's Chakra.
But he did not actually have Six Paths Sage Mode.

A good comparison is Obito and Naruto.
Obito stole some of Madara's Six Paths Sage Chakra, it powered him up. But he did not have SPSM.

Besides, nothing really implies that SPSM or even Six Paths Sage Chakra is needed to use SPCT.
All that is needed is Six Paths Chakra, Ashura+Indra, Yin+Yang.

Essentially Naruto and Sasuke combined their Yin and Yang Seals to perform a overpowered Rinnegan Jutsu on Kaguya, except they didn't use the Rinnegan to do it.
Sasuke didn't actually use his Rinnegan to perform it, nor did Naruto use his SPSM, the Seals Managed the Jutsu creation and sealing Kaguya's power, while their Yin and Yang Chakra was putting in the power for the Jutsu to work.



Doc Mindstorm said:


> It seem that your arguments are null and void.


I know the statement that Six Paths Senjutsu is needed for that Jutsu comes straight out of the Databook.
And the databook is trash.

Manga is the only true credible source.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 30, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I know the statement that Six Paths Senjutsu is needed for that Jutsu comes straight out of the Databook.
> And the databook is trash.
> 
> Manga is the only true credible source.


Since Databook do not contradict Manga in this case, it is your argument on this matter has no basis and credibility. Databook may be less credible than Manga but it still more credible than you.


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## Raiken (Jun 30, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Since Databook do not contradict Manga in this case, it is your argument on this matter has no basis and credibility. Databook may be less credible than Manga but it still more credible than you.


Not when it makes no sense for Six Paths Chibaku Tensei to require Six Paths Senjutsu.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 30, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Not when it makes no sense for Six Paths Chibaku Tensei to require Six Paths Senjutsu.


Rather when it invalidates your arguments.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Jun 30, 2015)

Guys wouldn't it make more sense that Hagoromo used the Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal to seal Kaguya into himself, rather than the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei since Hagoromo makes her the moons core when he's on his death bed?


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## Raiken (Jun 30, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Rather when it invalidates your arguments.


The databook is simply wrong, in that regard. And it's not the only think it's wrong about.


TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> Guys wouldn't it make more sense that Hagoromo used the Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal to seal Kaguya into himself, rather than the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei since Hagoromo makes her the moons core when he's on his death bed?


Perhaps they Sealed it first, went up to the created Moon, and used the Coffin Seal on the Sealed Juubi up there, at the same time, Hamura established his base up there and would watch over the Gedo Mazou.

Also the one Naruto and Sasuke used extracted the Juubi's Chakra from it, that clearly didn't happen when Hagaromo and Hamura fought the Juubi.
The reason it likely happened then was because the Bijuu are perhaps constantly drawn to the 9-Bijuu Chakra inside Naruto, they already almost broke free once.
The Juubi's Chakra had not taken the form of the 9-Bijuu back then.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 30, 2015)

TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> Guys wouldn't it make more sense that Hagoromo used the Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal to seal Kaguya into himself, rather than the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei since Hagoromo makes her the moons core when he's on his death bed?


In that case BZ is lying as well as Kaguya memory.


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## Csdabest (Jun 30, 2015)

Sage Mode just appears to strengthen chakra and increase potency imo. When Sasuke chakra was getting stronger than his Curse Seal chakra. It made it seem like it was making his chakra more potent. But stronger chakra Enhances the body as we saw with Naruto sage Mode naruto. And we saw with Sasuke's Own Chakra becoming more powerful that his body was becoming stronger as well with being enhanced.

Its simple terms. It seems to just make your chakra stronger but not give you an insane chakra boost. Just like SIX Paths Sage Mode Didn't really give naruto a significant chakra boost due to it being partial chakras. Though I do think ever since he got his other half of Kyuubi it gave him more chakra. But the Sage Mode just strengthens your chakra.


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## Raiken (Jul 22, 2015)

*Naruto's Mode in the Gaiden IS a form of Bijuu Sage Mode, NOT Six Paths Sage Mode*

So basically I'm going to show why I believe what Naruto used in the Gaiden is almost definitely a form of BSM, not SPSM.
And I know despite the comparative evidence displayed 70% of Naruto Forums will be like "No, it's SPSM.
And I know a large portion of that 70% will not even bother to read this post and STILL post an opposing reply anyway, because they actually DON'T WANT their beliefs to be proven wrong, despite what evidence is presented to them; but as Madara says, "...oh well.".

*Lets get to it:*

The best ways to tell a Mode with Naruto, are the visual indicators of what it is.
That's why so many people think in the Gaiden, Naruto is using a form of SPSM, because the first thing they notice is the lack of Sage eye pigmentation, a feature that has been seen in the past when Naruto was using SPSM, but I'll get to that later.

Here I will compare the different modes of Naruto in regards to the look of the Seal Pattern and how it moulds around Naruto's Body/Clothes.

Frontal Body

BM/BSM

GAIDEN

SPSM


As you can see, the Seal Pattern for BM and the Gaiden Mode only completely covers the Upper Torso and has lines branching down the legs.
While SPSM's Seal Pattern covers the whole body almost.


BM and the Gaiden Mode, have 2 Black Circles at the Stomach area.
SPSM has a single circle where there is an absence of Seal, shown by the white.


Back

BM/BSM

GAIDEN

SPSM


The MAIN thing to consider here is that SPSM possess additional Seal Markings in the way of a Rinnegan and 9 Tomoe.
Those Seal Markings, as seen on Hagaromo, Obito, Madara and Naruto, is the main indicator that you are currently using what is called Six Paths Sage Technique. Naruto uses SPST when he is in SPSM.
Gaiden Mode lacks those markings, as well as BM obviously.


Now instead of those 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Markings like in SPSM, BM and Gaiden Mode's shoulder Ninshu Symbols spread across the upper back and meet to form a centre Ninshu Marking, from this marking additional Seal Pattern can be created to form Tails or the whole Avatar.

BM/BSM

GAIDEN

This feature is not seen in SPSM, as it seems additional Seal coverage is not needed from Naruto's main body to manifest Tails or the Avatar, unlike with BM and the Gaiden Mode.
"However it's most likely this way because Kishi couldn't figure out how to connect tails and the like to the Seal Pattern with the Six Paths Sage Technique Seal Markings in the way. Which is why Naruto only ever used the whole Avatar and no Tails / Tail-Limbs in SPSM."

Ninshu Shoulder Seal Markings

As seen in the Back comparisons, the Shoulder Ninshu Markings extend across the upper back and meet. In BM and Gaiden Mode, the Ninshu markings also extend across the Front of the body, extending to meet the end of the clothing/chakra cloak.
The lines that come from the Shoulder Ninshu Markings in SPSM do not extend, and stay static where they are.

BM/BSM

GAIDEN

SPSM


Hands

BM/BSM

GAIDEN

SPSM

I don't think I need to do much explaining on this one, the difference is obvious.
BM and Gaiden Mode are the same, SPSM is different.

Additional Comparison

Just one more comparison that support my argument.

BM/BSM

GAIDEN


Gudoudama

One final note is the lack of Gudoudama in the Gaiden Mode, which is a trademark ability of all Six Paths Sage Technique users.
Don't feel I need images for this one, it's obvious.

Conclusion

By now you must surely realise based on those Comparisons with supporting comments that what is used in the Gaiden is a form of BSM, and not Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode which is a result of using Six Paths Sage Technique.

There are so many indicators that go against what Naruto uses being a form of SPSM, which can only lead to one conclusion, the lack of Sage Pigmentation must be attributed to something else and not a direct result of using Six Paths Sage Mode. Because the evidence strongly suggests that Naruto used a Mode that lacked Pigmentation that was NOT SPSM.

_My personal belief is that:_

Pigmentation Present: Using Senjutsu with Naruto's own body's Energies.

No Pigmentation: Having Kurama do the Senjutsu with Bijuu Chakra.

Like seen here:

It was always Naruto that carried out the Senjutsu, while for the first time at VotE2, we seen Kurama using Senjutsu.

The fact that a lack of pigmentation would appear in SPSM, is likely because Natural Energy has to be merged with 9-Bijuu Chakra to achieve Six Paths Sage Technique, "Hagaromo's Yang Chakra may also be a factor", so for that to happen the Bijuu must do the Senjutsu and not Naruto.
And in the Gaiden, Naruto is simply having Kurama do the Senjutsu when he went into Bijuu Mode, as opposed to Naruto doing it himself like he did earlier in Base where he had the pigmentation.

So basically, all the lack or presence of eye pigmentation means is whether it is Naruto using his Chakra or Kurama using his Chakra to carry out the Senjutsu.
It's also why we'll never see no eye pigmentation with just a horizontal pupil, because Kurama is doing the Senjutsu so he has to be linked to Naruto in some way, hence why when there's no pigmentation, it's always a Cross Pupil (Horizontal+Vertical).

Reactions: Winner 2


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

Six Path Sage Mode lacks the pigmentation around the eyes. Its Six Path Sage Mode + normal Tailed Beast Mode Cryorex. Canon>>>>>>Your interpretation.


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## Raiken (Jul 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Six Path Sage Mode lacks the pigmentation around the eyes. Its Six Path Sage Mode + normal Tailed Beast Mode Cryorex. Canon>>>>>>Your interpretation.


I'm already aware of your inability to see the truth in front of your eyes, no need for you to post my friend. 

I see you met part of my initial description, as expected.


Cryorex said:


> And *I know a large portion of that 70% will not even bother to read this post and STILL post an opposing reply anyway, because they actually DON'T WANT their beliefs to be proven wrong, despite what evidence is presented to them*; but as Madara says, "...oh well.".


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

And if it WAS Biju Sage Mode, where was the pigmentation around the eyes? After all, that's what happened when Naruto combined both, while Naruto lacked the pigmentation in the Gaiden. Its clear.

Know why we don't bother to read your post? Since its full interpretation while ignoring canon. Six Path Sage Mode isn't the mantle Naruto gains, its the eyes he gains. Naruto was in Six Path Sage Mode when he first engaged Juubi Madara after saving Guy, the mantle he gains is later. This was explicitly told to us in the databook. Yet you ignore the eyes and go 'WELL LOOK AT THE CLOAK!' which isn't the trait of Six Path Sage Mode at all.


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## Raiken (Jul 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And if it WAS Biju Sage Mode, where was the pigmentation around the eyes? After all, that's what happened when Naruto combined both, while Naruto lacked the pigmentation in the Gaiden. Its clear.
> 
> Know why we don't bother to read your post? Since its full interpretation while ignoring canon. Six Path Sage Mode isn't the mantle Naruto gains, its the eyes he gains. Naruto was in Six Path Sage Mode when he first engaged Juubi Madara after saving Guy, the mantle he gains is later. This was explicitly told to us in the databook. Yet you ignore the eyes and go 'WELL LOOK AT THE CLOAK!' which isn't the trait of Six Path Sage Mode at all.


As I've said before, you actually have no idea what Six Paths Sage Mode is, so I've just started to ignore you.
What you say in this post while attempting to make your case makes that abundantly clear.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> As I've said before, you actually have no idea what Six Paths Sage Mode is, so I've just started to ignore you.


_I_ don't, Cryorex? The manga and databook both say Six Path Sage Mode is the eyes, NOT the mantle and Gudodama which are *extra!*



> Page 310
> 
> Ninjutsu, Senjutsu - Six Paths Sage Mode
> No rank, no range, offensive, defensive, supplementary
> ...


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## MS81 (Jul 22, 2015)

He definitely used bijuu sage mode in the last Naruto movie.
It's hard to tell with Gaiden.


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## The Undying (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm not particularly for or against Naruto still having RSM, but I do lean towards him lacking it or at the very least not using it in the Gaiden. My reason for this is that his cloak resembles BSM much more than it resembles RSM. Ultimately, however, I get the feeling Kishimoto isn't really keeping track of it anymore. The final 30-something chapters of the manga felt like a complete abandonment of any kind of internal consistency, as if he was just trying to wrap everything up as quickly as possible.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> _I_ don't, Cryorex? The manga and databook both say Six Path Sage Mode is the eyes, NOT the mantle and Gudodama which are *extra!*



Except the line you've bolded doesn't say that at all. It just indicates that there is a _cloakless_ version of RSM. We've seen the cloaked version and we've seen the Gaiden cloak, and the latter appears to resemble BSM more.

Not saying you're wrong, but your argument certainly doesn't help your case.


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## Kyu (Jul 23, 2015)

No trademark tomoes on Gaiden Naruto's chest & back sways me to think he didn't use RSM.

I'm starting not to care whether he has it or not(partially because his Biju Mode looks badass as is), but I'm leaning toward him still having access to it - if we're to believe RSM is separate from the Yang powerup Fagoromo bestowed upon his right arm that got busted to shit later on.

He doesn't even need RSM to triumph over godly dojutsu users as he defeated an Ōtsutsuki bearing the Tenseigan using only his Senjutsu-augmented KCM - a form significantly inferior to BSM.

Say he did lose Rikudo Sage Mode...he can still create makeshift Truth-Seekers(albeit they're limited to long-ranged nukes) and he maintains distinctive elements/KKG from biju 1-8 along with flight(displayed in his battle v. Toneri). 

Not using it post-war thus far isn't really hindering him.


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## Raiken (Jul 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> _I_ don't, Cryorex? The manga and databook both say Six Path Sage Mode is the eyes, NOT the mantle and Gudodama which are *extra!*


The badly constructed Databook might, but the Manga says NO such thing. 
Your interpretation of the Manga might suggest that, but it doesn't really imply what you're saying it does what so ever.
I don't know where you are getting off thinking the eyes are more of an indicator, it doesn't say anything anywhere that states or suggests that the lack of Sage pigmentation is an indicator of SPSM, while it SPECIFICALLY states in the *Manga*, that the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Seal Markings represent the usage of SPSM. 

For all we know, maybe you are right, I can see the possibility in regards to that specific thing, that Naruto could have been using SPSM before he activated the Chakra Mode when he was initially revived.
But if he was using SPSM when initially revived, the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Seal Markings would have been present, under his clothes on his skin, which they very well might have been. And when he activates the Chakra Mode, they proceed to appear on the Chakra.
However, despite using a Chakra Mode, there is no sign of the trademark Six Paths Senjutsu Markings in the Gaiden.
So whether or not the initially revived Naruto was using SPSM or not doesn't really help your case.


MS81 said:


> He definitely used bijuu sage mode in the last Naruto movie.
> It's hard to tell with Gaiden.


It's actually more of a KCM+SM rather than a BM+SM in The Last: Naruto the movie, but a 100% KCM, as opposed to a 50% KCM.
He might have still had the Verticle Pupils because he used Kurama externally, rather than internally; but the mode it self was definitely KCM.

The back symbol of KCM Naruto from the War.

The back symbol of Naruto's Mode against Toneri.



			
				Kyu said:
			
		

> He maintains distinctive elements/KKG from biju 1-8 along with flight(displayed in his battle v. Toneri).


It's possible he maintains the abilities of the 9 Bijuu, that is really unconfirmed at the moment and there's no way to tell for sure, it's definitely a possibility though.
I disagree about the flight, as that was stated to be a trademark ability of SPSM, the "like" flight in the Last could easily be explained by low gravity on the Moon, remember while they were fighting, all the rocks around them were floating which is a big giveaway.


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## MS81 (Jul 23, 2015)

@cryorex, what's the difference between kcm and bsm?
All I'm saying is that Naruto definitely wasn't using six paths chakra in the movie. Just finished reading the gaiden and he never used six paths chakra in that either.


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## Raiken (Jul 23, 2015)

MS81 said:


> @cryorex, what's the difference between kcm and bsm?


Basically there's  a couple of differences to take note of when determining KCM or BM.


The Seal Pattern

KCM's Seal Pattern has lots of sticky out chunks to the seal pattern, and spiral circle markins.
BM's Seal Pattern covers the whole frontal torso in black, and instead of spiral circle markings, it has a double solid circle marking, sometimes called a Ninshu Symbol.
BM's Seal Pattern also has thick Black Seal Markings over Naruto's whisker marks.


The Pupil

KCM will have a Normal pupil or Horizontal pupil if KCM+SM.
BM will have a Verticle pupil or a Cross pupil if BM+SM.

In The Last, the Seal Pattern largely resembles KCM, the differences perhaps coming from it being a 100% KCM as opposed to 50%.
Naruto having Cross Shaped Pupils and Black Seal Markings over his whisker marks implies BM. 

So the Seal Pattern largely resembles KCM, but the what is seen on Naruto's face, the whisker seal markings and pupils resemble BM.
However, the possible reason for Naruto's face looking the way it does is that he is using Kurama, but not from inside himself. But is using Kurama externally to fight the giant stone Golem.
That explanation may only really be needed for the presence of the verticle pupil anyway, for all we know Naruto may just have the Black Seal Markings over his whiskers in a 100% KCM as standard.



MS81 said:


> All I'm saying is that Naruto definitely wasn't using six paths chakra in the movie. Just finished reading the gaiden and he never used six paths chakra in that either.


By Six Paths Chakra I assume you mean Six Paths Sage Mode, in which yes I agree, however a few people don't.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Six Path Sage Mode lacks the pigmentation around the eyes. Its Six Path Sage Mode + normal Tailed Beast Mode Cryorex. Canon>>>>>>Your interpretation.



 I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. While we get Juubidara's input on what Six Paths Senjutsu looks like, we have no implication that leads us to believe that lack of pigmentations indicates Rikudou Senjutsu.

 The design of the cloak along with the lack of Tomoes present in Gaiden indicates that he was using BSM where it's obvious he was also using his Toad Senjutsu due to the design of the eyes:

Chapter 78

 Therefore, I agree with Cyorex that Gaiden Naruto was using BSM or at least a form of it. He's simply going very in-depth for his liking and I personally don't believe it's necessary.

 As for you Cyorex, thanks for presenting those scans. I'll use those as a point of reference when I get involved in a heated debate on this very subject.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> The badly constructed Databook might, but the Manga says NO such thing.


Its canon and its supported with 672, Cryorex. You're mistaken.


> Your interpretation of the Manga might suggest that, but it doesn't really imply what you're saying it does what so ever.
> I don't know where you are getting off thinking the eyes are more of an indicator, it doesn't say anything anywhere that states or suggests that the lack of Sage pigmentation is an indicator of SPSM, while it SPECIFICALLY states in the *Manga*, that the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Seal Markings represent the usage of SPSM.


The Sage Pigmentation is in Biju Sage Mode. I linked you to where Naruto used the form and it had the Biju Mode Cloak AND the Sage Mode eyes + the red/orange pigmentation around them. Yet the form used in the Gaiden lacked it. Six Path Sage Mode lacks the Sage Pigmentation, but keeps the cross eye. All we saw him was was combine it with the basic Biju Mode, that's it, not the Six Path Sage Biju Mode.
For all we know, maybe you are right, I can see the possibility in regards to that specific thing, that Naruto could have been using SPSM before he activated the Chakra Mode when he was initially revived.


> But if he was using SPSM when initially revived, the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Seal Markings would have been present, under his clothes on his skin, which they very well might have been. And when he activates the Chakra Mode, they proceed to appear on the Chakra.
> However, despite using a Chakra Mode, there is no sign of the trademark Six Paths Senjutsu Markings in the Gaiden.
> So whether or not the initially revived Naruto was using SPSM or not doesn't really help your case.\


The lack of pigmentation just shows a new combination of Six Path Sage Mode and Biju Mode. If it was Biju Sage Mode, Naruto would have the 'rings' around his eyes. Yet he didn't.



NarutoX28 said:


> I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. While we get Juubidara's input on what Six Paths Senjutsu looks like, we have no implication that leads us to believe that lack of pigmentations indicates Rikudou Senjutsu.
> 
> The design of the cloak along with the lack of Tomoes present in Gaiden indicates that he was using BSM where it's obvious he was also using his Toad Senjutsu due to the design of the eyes:
> 
> ...


Cryorex completely forgot to post the FACIAL comparison, which is Six Path Sage Mode's primary trait. 

Six Path Senjutsu is Six Path Sage Mode with the cloak, all we saw in Gaiden was Six Path Sage Mode and Biju Mode. The Cloaked form we saw against Madara, kaguya, and Sasuke was only accomplished when Naruto drew upon the power of all nine tailed beasts, while in Gaiden he just drew upon 100% Kurama.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Cryorex completely forgot to post the FACIAL comparison, which is Six Path Sage Mode's primary trait.



 I looked at War Arc Bijuu Mode, Gaiden's Hypothetical Mode, and Naruto's RSM and they quite frankly look identical. What facial expressions are you referring to?



> Six Path Senjutsu is Six Path Sage Mode with the cloak, all we saw in Gaiden was Six Path Sage Mode and Biju Mode. The Cloaked form we saw against Madara, kaguya, and Sasuke was only accomplished when Naruto drew upon the power of all nine tailed beasts, while in Gaiden he just drew upon 100% Kurama.



 I'm not sure what you're referring to. What do you mean by Six Path Sage Mode and Bijuu Mode being used in Gaiden?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I looked at War Arc Bijuu Mode, Gaiden's Hypothetical Mode, and Naruto's RSM and they quite frankly look identical. What facial expressions are you referring to?


Forgot 645 when Naruto combined Biju and Sage Mode together?

The ring/pigmentation around Naruto's eyes shows Biju Sage Mode being active. Biju Mode without Sage Mode lacks the cross eyes and pigmentation. Six Path Sage Mode? Cross eye like Biju Sage Mode, but lacks the ring around the eyes of Sage Pigmentation.


> I'm not sure what you're referring to. What do you mean by Six Path Sage Mode and Bijuu Mode being used in Gaiden?


In the Gaiden, Naruto used Six Path Sage Mode (cross eyes without rings/pigmentation around said eyes), but he only used Kurama's power. Thus, for the cloak he couldn't create the Six Path Senjutsu form he used when he powered up here, drawing upon the power of all _nine_ tailed beasts, hence why the Gudodama formed behind his back.

Think about it like this: Six Path Sage Mode, Naruto's new form is his Super Saiyan God form, while the powered up form is Six Path Sage Mode, or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

It makes me sad my new thread was merged with an old one. 
Much time was put into that new thread. 

Now people might not find all my image comparisons.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> It makes me sad my new thread was merged with an old one.
> Much time was put into that new thread.
> 
> Now people might not find all my image comparisons.


Forgot the most important one anyway, Cryorex. Flat out question: what form did Naruto use in 672 and 673 against Juubi Madara right after saving Guy? It most certainly wasn't Sage Mode or Biju Sage Mode since it lacked the pigmentation around the eyes.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Forgot the most important one anyway, Cryorex. Flat out question: what form did Naruto use in 672 and 673 against Juubi Madara right after saving Guy? It most certainly wasn't Sage Mode or Biju Sage Mode since it lacked the pigmentation around the eyes.


That one is a curious one, my belief is that it could be EITHER way, Naruto may or may not be using what is called Six Paths Sage Technique at that point, there is no way to tell.

I consider what he's using at that moment.

1: Hagaromo's Yang Chakra
2: He was synchronized with Kurama, and by extension the other 8 Bijuu.
3: And was using a form of Senjutsu that lacked the eye pigmentation.

You associate lack of eye pigmentation with Naruto using Six Paths Sage Technique, which is, in my opinion, a misinterpreted belief.
As I have attempted to prove through my posts, the lack of eye pigmentation doesn't indicate the usage of Six Paths Sage Technique or not.
You already know why I believe that. The presence of the *actual indicator* for Six Paths Sage Mode, the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Markings, are lacked in his Gaiden Mode, while at the same time he lacks the Sage eye pigmentation.

So one of the originally *believed indicator* for SPSM *is present*, the lack of eye pigmentation.
However the *PRIMARY indicator* of him using Six Paths Sage Technique is *not present*, the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan markings.
Which leads to the conclusion, that the lack of eye pigmentation doesn't necessarily mean the usage of Six Paths Sage Mode, and that *lack of eye pigmentation* must be *caused by something else*.

And it's no good saying it's some kind of Six Paths Sage Mode+Bijuu Mode, it really is just as simple as this:
No 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Markings = not a form of Six Paths Sage Technique.

So I attempted to set about to try and figure out what causes the lack of eye pigmentation.
I came up with a few different ideas first which were shot down by other people and I eventually settled on the idea that Naruto is using Senjutsu through the Bijuu's Chakra, as opposed to through his own Body's Energies.

Which I supported with that big post of mine, amongst other posts.

The likes of seeing Kurama gathering Natural Energy, despite the fact it was always Naruto that did the Senjutsu in the past.
The fact that Natural Energy and the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu have to be combined to create the kind of Chakra that is necessary for Six Paths Sage Mode.
Both of these factors support the notion that Naruto was now using Senjutsu through his Sealed Bijuu Chakra and not his own Bodies Energies, weather that be with just Kurama's Chakra "Gaiden Mode", or all 9-Bijuu's Chakra "SPSM".
And in regards to the specifics of it, it implies that Kurama is the one gathering the Natural Energy and converting it to Sage Chakra, implying that Naruto largely isn't involved with the actual Senjutsu process, but just simply makes use of the Sage Chakra; when compared to before, when the pigmentation IS present, when solely Naruto carried out the Senjutsu process, with his own bodies energies.
A good way of looking at it is against JJ Obito, it was Bijuu Mode + Sage Mode, against Shin it is Bijuu-Sage Mode, a more true union of Bijuu Chakra and Sage Chakra, rather than a hastily put together combination just so his attacks could hurt his opponent.

So, my belief is that Naruto is using Hagaromo's Yang Chakra, the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu and is using Senjutsu through the Bijuu and not his own Energies when he was first revived against Pre-Shinju JJ Madara.

All that to me would imply he very well might be using Six Paths Sage Mode at that point, just like you believe.
However there was no way to tell that if on Naruto's skin underneath his clothes, the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Markings are present, because that is the trademark indicator of Six Paths Sage Technique usage, not the lack of eye pigmentation.

Or it could be that he was just synced to the 9-Bijuu, using Senjutsu through the Bijuu and using Hagaromo's Yang Chakra, but that it may not have been Six Paths Sage Mode, until he *truly *combined them all within a Chakra Mode.

So as I originally said, it could be that he is or he isn't, if only we could see under his jacket.

I personally I believe he IS using SPSM against pre-Shinju JJ Madara, but you shouldn't use the lack of eye pigmentation to make that conclusion because as explained, it's not an indicator of using SPSM, but an indicator of using Senjutsu through the Seal/Bijuu instead of Body/Energies.

That's just my opinion though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2015)

But the lack of pigmentation, specifically Naruto kicking the Gudodama away in that form, was explicitly laid out as the defining trait of Six Path Sage Mode. Think about this: the powered up form was called Six Path Senjutsu by Madara. What if Six Path Senjutsu is the _enhanced form_ of Six Path Sage Mode, which is just the cross eyes?

And as for the Gaiden form, it truly just is a combination of basic Biju Mode and Six Path Sage Mode. He's only using Kurama's power there on top of entering Six Path Sage Mode for tracking purposes.

Not to mention, look at the trailers of the Boruto movie: we see Naruto _clearly_ in the enhanced Six Path Sage Mode/Six Path Senjutsu.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But the lack of pigmentation, specifically Naruto kicking the Gudodama away in that form, was explicitly laid out as the defining trait of Six Path Sage Mode.


As I said, I personally think that it was SPSM, and that underneath his jacket, he very well may have had the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan markings on his skin, but there's no way to know.
But you're still holding on to the lack of eye pigmentation implying that he's using SPSM, so maybe we're just destined to disagree forever ahah.


> Think about this: the powered up form was called Six Path Senjutsu by Madara. What if Six Path Senjutsu is the _enhanced form_ of Six Path Sage Mode, which is just the cross eyes?


"Sage Mode" is characterized as the controlled usage of Senjutsu.
"Sage Transformation" is also Senjutsu

Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode is comparable to Madara's Six Paths Sage Transformation:
Both are forms of Six Paths Senjutsu.

Kabuto's Sage Mode is comparable to Juugo's Sage Transformation:
Both are forms of Senjutsu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> As I said, I personally think that it was SPSM, and that underneath his jacket, he very well may have had the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan markings on his skin, but there's no way to know.
> But you're still holding on to the lack of eye pigmentation implying that he's using SPSM, so maybe we're just destined to disagree forever ahah.


The reason why Naruto isn't in Biju Sage Mode? We explicitly see, close up, of what Biju Sage Mode is with the marks around the eyes + the cloak + the cross eyes. 


> "Sage Mode" is characterized as the controlled usage of Senjutsu.
> "Sage Transformation" is also Senjutsu
> 
> Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode is comparable to Madara's Six Paths Sage Transformation:
> ...


And there can't be a powered up form of Sage Mode?


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And there can't be a powered up form of Sage Mode?


As I've said, I think it is SPSM, and yeah, he powers up into a Chakra Mode by releasing large amounts of his Bijuu Chakra, "primarily Kyuubi Chakra", from his Seal.
Essentially he could be going from Six Paths Sage Mode - Six Paths Sage Chakra Mode.
But there's no way to know for sure because we can't see if he has the 9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Markings or not on his skin pre-Chakra Mode.

However as explained: In the Gaiden, seeing Naruto in a Chakra Mode, while lacking Sage eye pigmentation, but also lacking the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Markings, strongly imply that the lack of eye pigmentation is not an indicator of SPSM, as that feature has ben seen in a form that is not using Six Paths Senjutsu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> As I've said, I think it is SPSM, and yeah, he powers up into a Chakra Mode by releasing large amounts of his Bijuu Chakra, "primarily Kyuubi Chakra", from his Seal.
> Essentially he could be going from Six Paths Sage Mode - Six Paths Sage Chakra Mode.
> But there's no way to know for sure because we can't see if he has the 9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Markings or not on his skin pre-Chakra Mode.
> 
> However as explained: In the Gaiden, seeing Naruto in a Chakra Mode, while lacking Sage eye pigmentation, but also lacking the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Markings, strongly imply that the lack of eye pigmentation is not an indicator of SPSM, as that feature has ben seen in a form that is not using Six Paths Senjutsu.


But in all forms of just straight Biju Sage Mode, Kishimoto went in and drew the pigmentation around Naruto's eyes. We saw it during the Obito fight. We saw it in _The Last_ (when the form took so many levels of badass its incredible). But in the Gaiden form, Kishimoto drew the form lacking pigmentation, and the only time that happens is with Six Path Sage Mode. Both in the unpowered and powered up form. 

That's why I thought Naruto can just combine a higher and lower form whenever he wants. A...Six Path Sage Biju/Chakra Mode, for instance. Especially after all the years he's been training with it.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But in all forms of just straight Biju Sage Mode, Kishimoto went in and drew the pigmentation around Naruto's eyes. We saw it during the Obito fight. We saw it in _The Last_ (when the form took so many levels of badass its incredible). But in the Gaiden form, Kishimoto drew the form lacking pigmentation, and the only time that happens is with Six Path Sage Mode. Both in the unpowered and powered up form.
> 
> That's why I thought Naruto can just combine a higher and lower form whenever he wants. A...Six Path Sage Biju/Chakra Mode, for instance. Especially after all the years he's been training with it.



Yeah I understand that, that's why it's easier to come to the conclusion that the lack of eye pigmentation is strongly related to the usage of Six Paths Sage Mode, but as I explained in my last post and others, that is just not the case.

Six Paths Sage Mode will always lack the eye pigmentation because to use SPSM, Senjutsu needs to be done through the Bijuu Chakra and not Naruto's own Energies.
The original BM+SM, was simply Naruto using his own Energies to create Sage Chakra and combining it with Chakra Mode, it's the same in The Last except with a kind of KCM instead of BM.
With his BSM in the Gaiden, he's using Senjutsu through Kurama again, so there's no pigmentation.

Anyway, you don't have to agree with me, but I think you at least understand my side of it now.


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## shade0180 (Jul 24, 2015)

> because to use SPSM, Senjutsu needs to be done through the Bijuu Chakra




That's not true though considering Hamura and Hagoromo acquired SPSM before the Bijuu got separated from the Juubi and Before Hagoromo became the Juubi host in the first place.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> That's not true though considering Hamura and Hagoromo acquired SPSM before the Bijuu got separated from the Juubi and Before Hagoromo became the Juubi host in the first place.



Bear this in mind before you read what I'm about to write, people who absorb the Juubi gain Six Paths Senjutsu.

Now, Hagaromo and Hamura naturally inherited Kaguya's Six Paths Sage Chakra, but they DO NOT have Six Paths Senjutsu.
Neither Hagaromo Pre-Jin or Hamura have displayed the 9 Tomoe / Rinnegan Markings.



Hamura and Pre-JJ Hagaromo can be compared to Post-JJ Obito after he stole some of Madara's Six Paths Sage Chakra.
Because Obito had Transformed into Six Paths Sage Transformation once, he was able to steal some of that power, as stated by Madara.
Because Hamura and Hagaromo were sons to Kaguya, they naturally inherited her Chakra.

There's a difference between having Six Paths Sage Chakra and having Six Paths Senjutsu.


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## shade0180 (Jul 24, 2015)

because kishi can draw it in full detail when it is that small. 

cyro, we have an image of Hamura having the SPSM and he never became a Jinchuriki like Hagoromo..


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> because kishi can draw it in full detail when it is that small.
> 
> cyro, we have an image of Hamura having the SPSM and he never became a Jinchuriki like Hagoromo..


Please link Hamura having Six Paths Senjutsu, I've never seen that.


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## MS81 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Please link Hamura having Six Paths Senjutsu, I've never seen that.



I think he's talking about right before Naruto and Sasuke used six paths chibaku tensai on kaguya or he must be talking about the tensaigan.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> I think he's talking about right before Naruto and Sasuke used six paths chibaku tensai on kaguya or he must be talking about the tensaigan.


You mean here, you can't even see their backs.


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## MS81 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> You mean here, you can't even see their backs.



But Hamura still have the tomoes and yin/yang staff though.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> But Hamura still have the tomoes though.


Everyone and their mum has neck Tomoe's.

KCM Naruto, BM Naruto, KCM Minato, Ashura, Indra, Hamura, Hagaromo, Toneri

Neck Tomoe's don't really mean much, to be honest.


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## shade0180 (Jul 24, 2015)

that backpedaling.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> that backpedaling.


Not at all, I don't see how acknowledging that the neck Tomoe's haven't shown to mean shit goes against my arguement that Pre-JJ Hagaromo and Hamura do not have Six Paths Senjutsu at all.


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## MS81 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Not at all, I don't see how acknowledging that the neck Tomoe's haven't shown to mean shit goes against my arguement that Pre-JJ Hagaromo and Hamura do not have Six Paths Senjutsu at all.



@cryorex, Hamura is probably closer to Obito with sage chakra so you are right to some extent. But remember he still have truthseeking spheres as well.


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> @cryorex, Hamura is probably closer to Obito with sage chakra so you are right to some extent. But remember he still have truthseeking spheres as well.


What you have to consider is, what do you need to create Gudoudama?

They are created using Six Paths Sage Chakra, the 5 Elemental, Yin and Yang Chakras all merged into one.

Note, Obito with the Rinnegan after penetrating :^) Madara, stealing his Six Paths Sage Chakra was able to create a Gudoudama.



Remember the Rinnegan users can use all 5 Elements, and Obito has shown he already had Yin-Yang Release through his use of Izanagi, which requires Yin-Yang Release.
Stealing Madara's Six Paths Sage Chakra was one the final components needed.

He used black zetsu's mass to create a Gudoudama rather than create a new one, Black Zetsu is essentially a creation of Yin-Yang Chakra however.
Who knows why, maybe because it would take more Chakra to create a new Gudoudama, or that he is not good enough with Yin-Yang Release to manifest a new one.

It is the same with Hagaromo and Hamura when compared to Obito.
The Tenseigan is also stated to allow the user to use all 5 Elements like the Rinnegan.
In all likelihood, Hagaromo, Hamura and Toneri all naturally possessed Yin-Yang Release.
We know Hagaromo and Hamura naturally had Six Paths Sage Chakra, it is possible Toneri also did, perhaps because he remained a "pure" descendant of Hamura, only breeding with other Otsutsuki's and possibly with some i*c*st thrown in haha.

Because they possessed all those things: Tenseigan/Rinnegan+Yin-Yang Release+Six Paths Sage Chakra: They could use Gudoudama.

So even the usage of Gudoudama doesn't necassarily mean they have Six Paths Senjutsu. Six Paths Senjutsu users just appear to have much more ability in regards to the usage of Gudoudama though, in relation to amount used in that they automatically manifest 9 fully functional Gudoudama at once and in how useful they can be.


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## MS81 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> What you have to consider is, what do you need to create Gudoudama?
> 
> They are created using Six Paths Sage Chakra, the 5 Elemental, Yin and Yang Chakras all merged into one.
> 
> ...



Six paths senjutsu is the same as chakra bro...
You tell me how Kakashi have perfect susanoo and sage raikiri then?ck


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> Six paths senjutsu is the same as chakra bro...
> You tell me how Kakashi have perfect susanoo and sage raikiri then?ck



 Six Paths Senjutsu is not Six Paths Chakra. It's entirely different.

 Kakashi managed to use a Black Chidori based on having Rikudou Chakra, not Rikudou Senjutsu which is why Sasuke managed to do so as he had the Yin Power of Hagoromo's Chakra.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> But Hamura still have the tomoes and yin/yang staff though.



 You're uneducated.

 Indra and Ashura always had Neck Tomoes, Minato and Naruto also have Neck Tomoes. They truly aren't an indication of Rikudou Senjutsu.

 The Gudodama Staff is difficult to explain, but perhaps it was created using Rikudou Chakra and the 5 Elements?


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## MS81 (Jul 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You're uneducated.
> 
> Indra and Ashura always had Neck Tomoes, Minato and Naruto also have Neck Tomoes. They truly aren't an indication of Rikudou Senjutsu.
> 
> The Gudodama Staff is difficult to explain, but perhaps it was created using Rikudou Chakra and the 5 Elements?


Listen....lol both of the characters have a bit of juubis chakra while one retained the ootsusuki byakugan the other had a great blend of everything.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> Listen....lol both of the characters have a bit of juubis chakra while one retained the ootsusuki byakugan the other had a great blend of everything.



 Indra doesn't have any Juubi Chakra at all, same as Naruto and Minato yet both had Tomoes while using their Chakra Modes.


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## MS81 (Jul 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Indra doesn't have any Juubi Chakra at all, same as Naruto and Minato yet both had Tomoes while using their Chakra Modes.



I thought we were talking about Hamura? Didn't Kaguya have juubi before having them?


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> I thought we were talking about Hamura? Didn't Kaguya have juubi before having them?



 That's great, but inheriting a mere portion won't grant them Six Paths Senjutsu or else Obito would've had some from absorbing Juubidara's Chakra.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2015)

Hamura had the Tenseigan, which can create its own Gudodama.


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## MS81 (Jul 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That's great, but inheriting a mere portion won't grant them Six Paths Senjutsu or else Obito would've had some from absorbing Juubidara's Chakra.



How does he have a mere portion when he clearly has yin seal?


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2015)

How are you going to let MS81 troll you? Put the whipping boy of 06 is in his place.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> How does he have a mere portion when he clearly has yin seal?



 Yin Seal isn't an indication of Rikudou Senjutsu or else Sasuke would have Rikudou Senjutsu.


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## MS81 (Jul 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yin Seal isn't an indication of Rikudou Senjutsu or else Sasuke would have Rikudou Senjutsu.



Uhmmmm...Neji *who has mastered the Gentle Fist style*, he can release chakra from his entire body.
But Sasuke don't have gudodamas either....


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 24, 2015)

MS81 said:


> Uhmmmm...Neji *who has mastered the Gentle Fist style*, he can release chakra from his entire body.
> But Sasuke don't have gudodamas either....



 And Obito did despite lacking Rikudou Senjutsu.


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## Zef (Jul 24, 2015)

All I know OP is that Naruto's current mode lacks Goudama, and that he's not utilized whatever Bijuu chakra he had since the Kaguya battle.


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## Alucardemi (Jul 25, 2015)

Since Naruto's mode still brightens his skin with chakra, unlike RSM, I think he may, indeed, have lost it.


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## shade0180 (Jul 25, 2015)

> I thought we were talking about Hamura? Didn't Kaguya have juubi before having them?



Kaguya is the juubi...


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## MS81 (Jul 25, 2015)

Gunners said:


> How are you going to let MS81 troll you? Put the whipping boy of 06 is in his place.



Son.... Ever since Kishi made Kakashi blitz kaguya it was game over for tyou and the rest of your goons.


shade0180 said:


> Kaguya is the juubi...



My point exactly, with that said Hamura is not a fodder like some people call him.


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## Raiken (Jul 25, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Kaguya is the juubi...


In a way Kaguya wasn't an asspul, I always had a feeling after they revived the Juubi that it would end up being the FV.


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## Raiken (Jul 29, 2015)

MS81 said:


> How does he have a mere portion when he clearly has yin seal?


Obito had a portion of Madara's Six Paths Sage Chakra, which Madara had from being the Juubi Jinchuuriki.
Sasuke was given Hagaromo's Yin Chakra, the same as what Indra inherited in my opinion, which is a completely different thing.


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## Klue (Aug 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Six Paths Senjutsu is not Six Paths Chakra. It's entirely different.
> 
> Kakashi managed to use a Black Chidori based on having Rikudou Chakra, not Rikudou Senjutsu which is why Sasuke managed to do so as he had the Yin Power of Hagoromo's Chakra.



Rikudou Chakra in this context points to the chakra fueling SP-Senjutsu. Obito acquired Sage Mode, which upgraded his chakra (and ocular power as a result), Kakashi received that chakra, and utilized Susano'o at EMS level.


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