# Kisame is a top 20 Shinobi



## Zexion~ (Mar 27, 2017)

Its come to my attention that people have severely underrated many shinobi on this site lol, one of them being Kisame. Kisame is a high Kage shinobi and in a single tier list can be top 20-25 shinobi in the NV. 

I'm tired of this BS I'm new to being active here so I'm not sure how this stuff works but someone pick one of those overly wanked featless pathetic Sannin and flat out debate me in a match-up lol I guarantee I will shred you without remorse.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## FlamingRain (Mar 27, 2017)

That is just as much your opinion as otherwise is another poster's opinion.

I'd take you up on that "debate", but it'd have to be tonight or tomorrow if you were interested. I'm about to go somewhere.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Mar 27, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Its come to my attention that people have severely underrated many shinobi on this site lol, one of them being Kisame. Kisame is a high Kage shinobi and in a single tier list can be top 20-25 shinobi in the NV.
> 
> I'm tired of this BS I'm new to being active here so I'm not sure how this stuff works but someone pick one of those overly wanked featless pathetic Sannin and flat out debate me in a match-up lol I guarantee I will shred you without remorse.



Well it depends on who you put on the top 20... but the way your going with this from what you stated in Kisame vs Sannin and now... im sure your going to have a lot of posters  (including me) differ in how powerful you think he is, and high kage / top 20 requires techniques that are quite powerful ...w/o absorbing a large amount of chakra before hand.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 27, 2017)

I'd rate him the 13th strongest Shinobi in the manga, equal to Nagato.

But yeah, Kisame is definitely criminally underrated atm in the Battledome. Minato wank is starting to die down, but Sannin wank is reaching absurd levels, the worst I saw was Jiraiya being high kage 

He's above Itachi despite his part 1 statements, feats beat hype/portrayal and on his worst day is equal to the Six Paths of Pain, it baffles me that people still see him below Itachi, Minato, Tobirama etc etc.

But, I wouldn't stress over it OP, just stick to your guns but keep an open mind. Nobody wins "because they're a Sannin" or "because they're an Uchiha".

He's an extremely formidable Shinobi whos power can fluctuate wildly based on who his opponent is, but even against his main counter, he still pushed him far (Might Guy).

You're new to NBD, so you don't know yet how Shinobi's power fluctuates over time. Last month and the month prior Minato was horribly wanked, some even saying Base Minato beats SM Hashirama. 

Before Minato it was the Sannin, and before the Sannin it was Itachi.

The meta changes constantly in the NBD, all you can do is fight against it in order to kill it, but someone always becomes the top dog in the NBD, but the Sannin being wanked is a reoccurring thing that needs to stop. Their feats are pretty trash outside of 4 near full power Hokage ET and Tsunade's performance in War Arc. People cling desperately to their hype despite their feats being piss poor.

 Hype is only relevant if the Shinobi being hyped lived up to it based on their feats. The Sannin did not.

Itachi lived up to most of his hype, bar being invincible.
Kisame lived up to all of his hype
Obito lived up to all of his hype
Nagato lived up to all of his hype
Jiraiya got stomped by Pein, he did not live up to his
Orochimaru got stomped by Itachi 2 times, he did not live up to his
Tsunade sort of lived up to hers during her performance vs Madara, at least until he got serious, then he raped them.

Sannin are criminally overrated, I see the top 4 of the Akatsuki handling all of them at once without much difficulty if they're serious. (Itachi, Obito, Pein and Kisame)

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 27, 2017)

1. Kaguya Otsutsuki (other Otsutsuki's just under her, all of them are extremely powerful in their own right)
2. JJ Madara
3. Naruto Uzumaki (RSBM)
4. Sasuke Uchiha (BPS)
5. Might Guy (8 gates)
6. JJ Obito Uchiha 
7. DMS Rikudo Kakashi Hatake
8. Orochimaru (4 Hokage ET, full control over Edo Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama and Hiruzen)
9. Kabuto Yakushi (ET army)
10. Hashirama Senju (VOTE)
11. Madara Uchiha
12. Obito Uchiha (MS, Rinnegan)
*13. Kisame Hoshigaki 
13. Nagato Uzumaki*

Reactions: Funny 6 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 2


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## drew8324 (Mar 27, 2017)

Kisame is fore sure in the Top 20 maybe Top 15. I would put him Mid Kage level not Low Kage not high kage either. Like I don't see how people say any of the Sannin could flat out body him,that does not make sense

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 27, 2017)

Orochimaru vs. Kisame.


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Omfg my eyes my sweet eyes￼￼￼  make it stop please... @Makishima who's your top 20?

I won't quote troy or pay him attention but sometimes man I'm just like "wow" at wtf he says and he believes it! He's not trolling... Wow

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 27, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Omfg my eyes my sweet eyes￼￼￼  make it stop please... @Makishima who's your top 20?
> 
> I won't quote troy or pay him attention but sometimes man I'm just like "wow" at wtf he says and he believes it! He's not trolling... Wow







Face it, you love me but don't wanna admit it


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Top 15?good lord, its started... The wank is official.


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## Tri (Mar 27, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Its come to my attention that people have severely underrated many shinobi on this site lol, one of them being Kisame. Kisame is a high Kage shinobi and in a single tier list can be top 20-25 shinobi in the NV.
> 
> I'm tired of this BS I'm new to being active here so I'm not sure how this stuff works but someone pick one of those overly wanked featless pathetic Sannin and flat out debate me in a match-up lol I guarantee I will shred you without remorse.


This thread probably won't last very long, you probably should have just challenged a sannin fan in the challenger arena instead but I guess this works too.

The whole tier list thing seems a bit moot as when you actually rank someone you should be ranking their abilities as a whole and not just on a power scale, especially when characters almost always have a character that counters their arsenal. This applies heavily to Kisame due to his power fluctuations depending on his opponents.


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Face it, you love me but don't wanna admit it



You're a good debater but you're just a wanker bro. Nothing more I honestly just dont see why you waste potential to ride a mid kage characters dick.


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> This thread probably won't last very long, you probably should have just challenged a sannin fan in the challenger arena instead but I guess this works too.
> 
> The whole tier list thing seems a bit moot as when you actually rank someone you should be ranking their abilities as a whole and not just on a power scale, especially when characters almost always have a character that counters their arsenal. This applies heavily to Kisame due to his power fluctuations depending on his opponents.



Before it goes let's see his tier list. He may provide reasoning which he should have done all this in his opening post in all honesty.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 27, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> That is just as much your opinion as otherwise is another poster's opinion.
> 
> I'd take you up on that "debate", but it'd have to be tonight or tomorrow if you were interested. I'm about to go somewhere.



Uh I have an exam tomorrow sadly lol when you get back?



Troyse22 said:


> I'd rate him the 13th strongest Shinobi in the manga, equal to Nagato.
> 
> But yeah, Kisame is definitely criminally underrated atm in the Battledome. Minato wank is starting to die down, but Sannin wank is reaching absurd levels, the worst I saw was Jiraiya being high kage
> 
> ...



I wouldn't go that far my man Nagato>Itach and Kisame lol 



UchihaX28 said:


> Orochimaru vs. Kisame.



I already bodied prince charles in that debate lol 


La presagio said:


> Omfg my eyes my sweet eyes￼￼￼  make it stop please... @Makishima who's your top 20?
> 
> I won't quote troy or pay him attention but sometimes man I'm just like "wow" at wtf he says and he believes it! He's not trolling... Wow



Idgaf about 1-10 and their bland power system but he's stronger than every Kage besides Hashi and maybe Tobirama lol 

He's probably at 15 right below Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 27, 2017)

La presagio said:


> You're a good debater but you're just a wanker bro. Nothing more I honestly just dont see why you waste potential to ride a mid kage characters dick.





 He's a good debater who has lost all of his debates. Okay then.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 27, 2017)

@Makishima

I'd still be willing to give it a shot.


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Its come to my attention that people have severely underrated many shinobi on this site lol, one of them being Kisame. Kisame is a high Kage shinobi and in a single tier list can be top 20-25 shinobi in the NV.
> 
> I'm tired of this BS I'm new to being active here so I'm not sure how this stuff works but someone pick one of those overly wanked featless pathetic Sannin and flat out debate me in a match-up lol I guarantee I will shred you without remorse.



Once you show us your list don't include that JJ madara bs others do madara is madara just rank your Character's none of that foolish alternate versions rubbish.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 27, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Makishima
> 
> I'd still be willing to give it a shot.



Me and you Naruto? Lol Perhaps I was thinking of schooling the morons in the Sannin thread, with you it would actually be a debate however.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> He's a good debater who has lost all of his debates. Okay then.



Correct. But he has off belief's, beliefs that the manga it self goes against.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 27, 2017)

@Makishima  you are one of the biggest trolls in recent times if not the greatest.

It's very obvious that Kisame is top 5, not top 20. You are underrating him criminally. I'll take you up on that debate any time, scrub.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 8


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## Troyse22 (Mar 27, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Me and you Naruto? Lol Perhaps I was thinking of schooling the morons in the Sannin thread, with you it would actually be a debate however.



Don't overestimate Uchiha 

S'all I can say.



UchihaX28 said:


> He's a good debater who has lost all of his debates. Okay then.



Haven't lost all of my debates 

In fact, I consistently force concessions out of Sannin wankers whenever those threads become 1v1's between me and another debater.



Makishima said:


> He's probably at 15 *right below Itachi.*


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> @Makishima  you are one of the biggest trolls in recent times if not the greatest.
> 
> It's very obvious that Kisame is top 5, not top 20. You are underrating him criminally. I'll take you up on that debate any time, scrub.



I'm literally in tears

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 27, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Me and you Naruto? Lol Perhaps I was thinking of schooling the morons in the Sannin thread, with you it would actually be a debate however.



 Maybe. I'm disadvantaged because Orochimaru doesn't have that many feats to go by.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 27, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Once you show us your list don't include that JJ madara bs others do madara is madara just rank your Character's none of that foolish alternate versions rubbish.



Lol my knowledge on the end of series characters is low so ignore my top placings. However

1.Kaguya
2.Hashirama
3.Madara
4.Naruto
5.Sasuke
6.Obito
7.Nagato
8.Tobirama
9.Minato
10.Itachi
11.Kisame 


This is without variants like double MS and Jubi Jin and whatever lol probably forgetting and like I said 1-7 can probably be ranked very differently I don't care enough to know how strong they ended up at the end of the war-arc

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 3


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## Zexion~ (Mar 27, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Maybe. I'm disadvantaged because Orochimaru doesn't have that many feats to go by.



And that I have already debated that lol you'd be better off with Jiraiya.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 27, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Don't overestimate Uchiha
> 
> S'all I can say.



 Why? Kisame was Itachi and Obito's bitch after all. 




> Haven't lost all of my debates
> 
> In fact, I consistently force concessions out of Sannin wankers whenever those threads become 1v1's between me and another debater.





 And yet they're still rampant.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 27, 2017)

Makishima said:


> And that I have already debated that lol you'd be better off with Jiraiya.



 Yeah, I can work with Jiraiya.


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## Stonaem (Mar 27, 2017)

both as an overall.ninja( combat, teamwork, support etc) and simply.in combat, please explain how he is better than the following:
-hashirama
-madara
-naruto
-obito
-sasuke
-nagato/pein
-sakura( I hate to have her, but lets be honest)
-itachi
-gai
-ay
-mei
-gaara
-ohnoki
-tsunade
-jiraiya
-orochimaru
-kabuto
-kakashi
actually struggling to get to 20 but I only need 2 more(i can think of many who could beat him but that would mainly be bad matchup)
-darui
-kitsuchi/kuritsuchi/akatsuchi( the one who can do clay+golem jutsu

-i excluded past kage and shinobi not relevant to the 4th war
-also excluded some leaf shinobi as I think it has unfair amount of good shinobi( consider shikaku, chiza, inoichi
- while compiling, while I honestly view him as inferior, I did realize kisame would give the non god tiers a lot of trouble in battle( except for the bad matchups)

-i think these could beat him in battle, if not overall:
 - deidara, sasori, kakuzu, hidan( immortal), kurenai youhi, hyuga, gaara taijutsu trainer, some kumo elites( lightning to water)

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Kisame is over sakura to say differently is pitiful honestly. He'd potentially low diff mei too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zexion~ (Mar 27, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yeah, I can work with Jiraiya.



Word lets set it up.



Silnaem said:


> both as an overall.ninja( combat, teamwork, support etc) and simply.in combat, please explain how he is better than the following:
> -hashirama
> -madara
> -naruto
> ...





> -sakura( I hate to have her, but lets be honest)



.-. She gets her chakra absorbed, and has no way to escape the WD, not to mention her CES doesn't do as much damage as V2 Lariat which Kisame absolutely tanked. So should for some reason she and her slow move set ever lands a hit on Kisame underwater he'll survive and heal off the massive chakra he's taking from Sakura herself. She also has less chakra than Bee and he was drained in a minute or less.



> -itachi



Eh its a close matchup



> -gai



Shit yeah Gai is probably above Kisame as well lol but he's just a terrible matchup for him for obvious reasons.



> -ay



Once he fuses every time he tries to touch Kisame his shroud is absorbed and his punches become basic punches that don't do anything to Kisame. He gets absorbed within the WD very quickly.



> -mei



Lmaooo she gets solod by GSB because she can't avoid anything



> -gaara



Chakra in the sand can be absorbed, and hasn't it already shown a weak aversion to water?



> -ohnoki



Jinton= Chakra lol it never touches him.



> -tsunade



look @ Sakura



> -jiraiya
> -orochimaru
> -kabuto
> -kakashi
> ...



Lmaoooooo okay this is ridiculous 





> -i think these could beat him in battle, if not overall:
> - deidara, sasori, kakuzu, hidan( immortal), kurenai youhi, hyuga, gaara taijutsu trainer, some kumo elites( lightning to water)



Kurenai? KURENAI? WHY DID I EVEN BOTHER RESPONDING TO YOU


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## Duhul10 (Mar 27, 2017)

I tend to believe Troyse created another account 

Joking aside, I believe Kisame might end up in a top 20, but which definitely does not include god tiers. I mean starting from top tier.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> I tend to believe Troyse created another account
> 
> Joking aside, I believe Kisame might end up in a top 20, but which definitely does not include god tiers. I mean starting from top tier.



Honestly yes cause some of these kisame believers come out of nowhere


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## Troyse22 (Mar 27, 2017)

I think you guys are overestimating how much I give a shit about what the general consensus of the NBD is

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stonaem (Mar 27, 2017)

1- im listing based on overall usefulness as a shinobi, not just battle
2- kurenai would genjutsu his ass so bad, unless he is immune( this is one of those I count as bad match up)
3-those guys u count as ridiculous are highly opinionated( arguements can be made as they wont just watch him destroy them, they'll fight back
4- the above are also way better at support and teamwork( see point 1)


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## Serene Grace (Mar 27, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Jinton= Chakra lol it never touches him.


and you actually mean this? You think Kisame absorbs something that erases its target on contact, when his absorption only works with *direct contact? *Sigh


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## Troyse22 (Mar 27, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> and you actually mean this? You think Kisame absorbs something that erases its target on contact, when his absorption only works with *direct contact? *Sigh



His absorption with Samehada works before the jutsu or chakra actually makes contact.

Edit: Assuming you're talking about all forms of Kisame's absorption, and not just the skin piercing one.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 27, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> His absorption with Samehada works before the jutsu or chakra actually makes contact.
> 
> Edit: Assuming you're talking about all forms of Kisame's absorption, and not just the skin piercing one.


Wrong. Me and you already had this convo, what is it about 6 times? You never learn do you, anyways Samehada is not preta path, show me an instance where it absorbed a tech without

1. It having a visible aura around it
Or
2. Establishing physical contact.

Lmao Samehada cries in pain from fodder katon, but absorbs something that erases its target on contact, and the most prevelant factor that allows it to do that is in fact *heat. *Lulz


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 27, 2017)

Kisame doesnt end up in my top 20 no matter how i set up my tier list if im not mistaken...

Lets see if my prediction is wrong...

*Including Rikudo Tier and Character Dupes*


Kaguya
Sage
Sage Bro
JJ Mads
Adult Naruto/Sasuke
Monstershiki
War Arc Naruto/Sasuke
Momoshiki/Kinshiki
Toneri
8G Gai
DMS Kakashi
JJ Obito
Rinnegan Mads
SM Hashirama
EMS Mads
BM Minato
BM Naruto
EMS Sasuke (Juubito)
Obito
Nagato
Pain
Kabuto
EMS Sasuke (Kabuto)
Base Minato
Tobirama
KCM Naruto/Killer Bee
Mu
MS Sasuke/SM Naruto
Itachi
7G Gai
Ohnoki
Gengetsu
Danzo
Jman
Oro
Kakashi
AAA
AAAA
Deidara
*Kisame*

So just breezing through and off the top of my head, including rikudos and multiple versions of the same character at each separate power up...*Kisame makes it into my top 40

Including Rikudos Without Dupes
*

Kaguya
Sage
Sage Bro
JJ Mads
Naruto/Sasuke
Monstershiki
Toneri
8G Gai
DMS Kakashi
JJ Obito
Hashirama
Minato
Nagato
Tobirama
Killer Bee
Mu
Itachi
Ohnoki
Gengetsu
Danzo
Jman
Oro
Kakashi
AAA
AAAA
Deidara
*Kisame*

With Rikudos and only the strongest version of each character mentioned in the tier list (I diddnt even include momo and kinshiki separately...cuz i mentioned their fusion) *Kisame makes it in at 27.*

*No Rikudos or Dupes
*

Rinnegan Mads
Hashirama
Minato
Naruto
Sasuke
Obito
Nagato
Kabuto
Tobirama
Killer Bee
Mu
Itachi
Gai
Ohnoki
Gengetsu
Danzo
Jman
Oro
Kakashi
AAA
AAAA
Deidara
*Kisame*
And finally...with no rikudos or dupes of a character mentioned...*Kisame makes it in at 23.*

So my prediction was correct...I cant see kisame making it into the top 20 in any way shape or form no matter what i do

To be fair tho...He comes close

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Mar 27, 2017)

I wouldn't include Kisame in the top 20. If we include god tier characters and multiple forms of characters then he'd range somewhere between the 30-40 range, if we include God tier characters but no multiple forms of characters then I'd say that he'd be in the 20-30 range and if we don't include the god tier characters and don't include multiple forms I'd still say that he'd be in the 20-30 range. Kisame's good but not that good, there's just better people then him.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 27, 2017)

Bonly said:


> I wouldn't include Kisame in the top 20. *If we include god tier characters and multiple forms of characters then he'd range somewhere between the 30-40 range*, *if we include God tier characters but no multiple forms of characters then I'd say that he'd be in the 20-30 range and if we don't include the god tier characters and don't include multiple forms I'd still say that he'd be in the 20-30 range.* Kisame's good but not that good, there's just better people then him.


Thats exactly what i ended up with

Though i just breezed through it and slapped mine together...Might be some stupid mistakes as a result

Not enough to bump kisame up over a dozen spaces tho...I didnt hurry THAT much


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

Dumb thread 

1- Kaguya .
2- SO6P .
3- Madara .
4- Naruto .
5- Sasuke .
6- Momoshiki .
7- Toneri .
8- JJ Obito .
9- Oro w/ ET Hokages .
10- Kabuto w/ ET .
11- DMS Kakashi .
12- 8G Gai .
13- Kinshiki .
14- Hashirama .
15- Nagato .
16- Pain .
17- Minato .
18- Killer Bee .
19- Tobirama .
20- Itachi .
21- Jiraiya .
22- Danzo .
23- Muu 
24- Gengetsu .
25- Onoki .
26- AAA 
27- AAAA .
28- Deidara 
29- Kisame .

And this is w/o mentioning Tsunade , featless characters like Hanzo or Hamura , or any new characters from the Boruto manga .

Or Kin/Gin .

And this is also excluding multiple versions of the same character  

Otherwise , he's not even top 40

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icelerate (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Dumb thread
> 
> 1- Kaguya .
> 2- SO6P .
> ...


You contradicted yourself. Kinshiki and Momoshiki are new characters from the Boruto manga.


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

Icelerate said:


> You contradicted yourself. Kinshiki and Momoshiki are new characters from the Boruto manga.


I mean the new character/Otsutsuki that came after Momo's death , sorry .


GuidingThunder said:


> or *any new characters* from the Boruto manga .


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 27, 2017)

I feel that he's underrated, too. Kisame can defeat someone as powerful as BM Naruto or Nagato, in my opinion.

But I do feel that Kisame would lose against characters weaker than that with special abilities. MS Obito and Itachi would be good examples, though Kisame winning or losing against Itachi would depend on the match-up stipulations. Knowledge, location and distance are important. I see him defeating anyone else under those characters. He's one of the strongest high-tier characters out there, and his chakra reserves are absolutely massive for someone who isn't related to Rikudou Sennin or teaming up with a Bijuu. That makes him the most impressive, in fact.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Disagree 5


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> I feel that he's underrated, too. Kisame can defeat someone as powerful as BM Naruto or Nagato, in my opinion.


WTF ??

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Tri (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Kaguya .
> 2- SO6P .
> 3- Madara .
> 4- Naruto .
> ...


I'm a Sasori and Gaara wanker, so where are Sasori and Gaara

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skilatry (Mar 27, 2017)

Makes you wonder why Kisame didn't have a flea-on-sight reputation during the 3rd Shinobi World War like Minato, since he's apparently above Nagato.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Serene Grace (Mar 27, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Assuming you're talking about all forms of Kisame's absorption, and not just the skin piercing one


Im referring to Samehada. Samehada has not shown to be able to automatically absorb ambient chakra, as in all instances where it has absorbed chakra are when the tech had a visible aura around it or when direct physical contact had already been established. I assure you. There isn't an example in the anime that agrees with you.


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## Matty (Mar 27, 2017)

Yea I also have Kisame just a hair below EMS Madara and SM Hashirama

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> I'm a Sasori and Gaara wanker, so where are Sasori and Gaara


I didn't mention a lot of characters like Tsunade , Hanzo , Kinkaku and Ginkaku (with Rikudo tools) , even tho they blantantly above Kisame .
It's not needed anyway , only an idiot would think Kisame is at top 20 or something

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2017)

Tsuande vs Kisame. I'll definitely roll with that

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sinevelle (Mar 27, 2017)

I don't care about Kisame but why you rank Momoshiki below Sasuke and Naruto is beyond my understanding. Common sense dictates the GB version of Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya. Not to mention feats.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 27, 2017)

If you include God tiers then Kisame is nowhere near top 20, more like top 40, but if you exclude them he's still not top 20 material. More like top 25 - 30ish imho, Kisame is a low end mid Kage level character to me.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2017)

I just disagree in the notion that the Sannin would destroy Kisame. When i doubt that's a thing. 

Sasuke Uchiha, who has thought of being capable enough after he became Hebi of beating Itachi, placing him above Sannin level, had a hell load of troubles against another Mid-tier Kage like Deidara.

And heck, he had two advantages to win this fight.

We can debate over Hebi Sasuke not being above the Sannin, but he's not far from them. 

No sannin is defeating Kisame with low difficulty.

But this is not Kisame being underrated. It's the Sannin being extra powerful in Narutoforums. That extra being sometimes extra big on top of it. 

When Kisame fights a Orohimaru, he doesn't fight only Oro. he fight Oro + the Sannin title + Jiraiya's  hype. Because he admitted inferiority to Jiraiya and since the Sannin name applies when it's an advantage to the Sannin, he is also trash to Oro and Tsunade. 

Te Sannin name summons other Sannin's feats, portrayal, fame and hype and turns it in a 4 vs 1 fight. Kisame (or any mid-tier kage) vs Tsunade, Orochimaru, Jiraiya and the title.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 3


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Sasuke Uchiha, who has thought of being capable enough after he became Hebi of beating Itachi, placing him above Sannin level, had a hell load of troubles against another Mid-tier Kage like Deidara.


Hebi Sasuke is a tier below any full power Sannin .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> We can debate over Hebi Sasuke not being above the Sannin, but he's not far from them.


Yes, he is.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Hebi Sasuke is a tier below any full power Sannin .



Disagree completely.

If by self proclaimed fame we go, Sasuke though himself capable enough to deal with Itachi once he absorbed Orochimaru when before he said none of the two were a match for his brother.

He's nowhere near a full tier below. He might be below them, but not _that _much.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 27, 2017)

Oro implied Pre Hebi sasuke was damn near his level if not outright more powerful than him



Whether that was exaggeration or not this puts a weaker version of sasuke than hebi sasuke near base sannin level at minimum...

And hebi is even stronger than the sasuke in question

So id say hebi is near sannin level for damn sure

Id def put him below them...but not by an absurd degree

But this is mad off topic

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Blu-ray (Mar 27, 2017)

Accounting only for the strongest iteration of characters and not inflating the list by using multiple versions of one character:

Naruto
Sasuke
Hashirama
Madara
Indra
Asura
Gai
Kakashi
Obito
Kabuto
Orochimaru
Kaguya
Hagoromo
Hamura
Momoshiki
Toneri
Minato
Nagato
Itachi
Tobirama
That's 20 characters in no specific order that range from being comfortably above Kisame at least to outright curbstomping him at most, but with all being decisively above him. And this isn't accounting for the others that are above him but not in the top 20, or debatable matchups.



GuidingThunder said:


> 20- Itachi .
> 21- Jiraiya .



I'm shocked tbh.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Disagree completely.
> 
> If by self proclaimed fame we go, Sasuke though himself capable enough to deal with Itachi once he absorbed Orochimaru when before he said none of the two were a match for his brother.
> 
> He's nowhere near a full tier below. He might be below them, but not _that _much.


Not an argument .
And don't think i'm putting Sannin above him just because of hype , if that's what you're trying to imply .
His best feats are :
Getting his ass smoked by Deidara despite the elemental advantage .
Getting child'ed by sick Itacho who could've killed him in any second .
Defeating a armless/jutsuless Oro who was hooped on meds and even he stated that he only defeated him because of that .

If we go by logic , even EMS Sasuke who is above Itachi and Suigetsu both deemed Oro as a threat to him , so that is already enough to put his Hebi version far above any Sannin .


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> I feel that he's underrated, too. Kisame can defeat someone as powerful as BM Naruto or Nagato, in my opinion.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Funny 3 | Dislike 1


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Accounting only for the strongest iteration of characters and not inflating the list by using multiple versions of one character:
> 
> Naruto
> Sasuke
> ...


I don't really care tbh


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Disagree completely.
> 
> If by self proclaimed fame we go, Sasuke though himself capable enough to deal with Itachi once he absorbed Orochimaru when before he said none of the two were a match for his brother.
> 
> He's nowhere near a full tier below. He might be below them, but not _that _much.



This isn't really good reasoning though. Sasuke thought he was a match for Itachi but still would have gotten mopped by Itachi with killing intent and Sasuke didn't even have knowledge of Sussano at that point. He didn't know how powerful Itachi was at all.


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## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Not an argument .
> And don't think i'm putting Sannin above him just because of hype , if that's what you're trying to imply .
> His best feats are :
> Getting his ass smoked by Deidara despite the elemental advantage .
> ...



Deidara was a powerful Shinobi, and a solid mid-tier Kage that even Pain, who cared shit when Kakuzu and Hidan died, mourned and hyped as strong.
I want you to know, that Itachi schooled, humilliated Orochimaru being in a worse condition than the one he was against Sasuke. And don't tell me "Oro had no arms!" because no matter how Oro was, Itachi was in a worse condition than him.
The third one is Pre-Hebi Sasuke, the one that said wasn't enough for defeating Sasuke, thinking he could do it after he defeated Oro.

Suigetsu being affraid of Oro is a thing, because Orochimaru us cunning, but we all know Oro would be terribly destroyed by EMS Sasuke. Suigetsu fears the man and spoke the truth, he advertised Sasuke for that.

He didn't say much (as much as i recall) when Sasuke attacked the Kage Summit. But just because of that doesn't mean Oro is = Kage Summit-


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Oro implied Pre Hebi sasuke was damn near his level if not outright more powerful than him
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not so sure that Oro claiming Sasuke was a greater genius was in reference to power..


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## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2017)

Veracity said:


> This isn't really good reasoning though. Sasuke thought he was a match for Itachi but still would have gotten mopped by Itachi with killing intent and Sasuke didn't even have knowledge of Sussano at that point. He didn't know how powerful Itachi was at all.



This is true. He was wrong on Itachi's powers. But he knew Orochimaru, and he knew Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru before having Knowledge on Susano'o and such. Then thought himself capable of beating Itachi after having Oro, so he basically put himself above Orochimaru there.

His reasoning of his standing in front of Oro might be wrong. But being so below that he is a tier below is going too far.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 27, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I'm not so sure that Oro claiming Sasuke was a greater genius was in reference to power..


I didnt say it did 100%...i said it could very well be an exaggerated implication 

I still think the statement has weight tho

I also dont use it to put pre hebi sasuke above oro


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Deidara was a powerful Shinobi, and a solid mid-tier Kage that even Pain, who cared shit when Kakuzu and Hidan died, mourned and hyped as strong.
> I want you to know, that Itachi schooled, humilliated Orochimaru being in a worse condition than the one he was against Sasuke. And don't tell me "Oro had no arms!" because no matter how Oro was, Itachi was in a worse condition than him.
> The third one is Pre-Hebi Sasuke, the one that said wasn't enough for defeating Sasuke, thinking he could do it after he defeated Oro.
> 
> ...



Sai humiliated Deidara/Sasori. 

Sai >>>>>>>> Hebi Sasuke.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 27, 2017)

W/o different versions of some characters.. maybe he is top 30.. w different versions of some characters.. He is not even Top 40.


GuidingThunder said:


> WTF ??


The funnier part is he said that after sayin "he is underrated"


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I just disagree in the notion that the Sannin would destroy Kisame. When i doubt that's a thing.


 All any of the Sannin would need is their signature summon, and the fight is over. 



> Sasuke Uchiha, who has thought of being capable enough after he became Hebi of beating Itachi, placing him above Sannin level, had a hell load of troubles against another Mid-tier Kage like Deidara.


 Jiraiya is also capable of defeating Itachi, and it was made pretty clear that Hebi Sasuke was still inferior to Orochimaru. Hebi Sasuke believing he could defeat Itachi doesn't suddenly make him stronger than Orochimaru.



> And heck, he had two advantages to win this fight.


 Sasuke was also holding back against Deidara, and could've killed him but wanted to use him to find out where Itachi was. Sasuke also could've killed Deidara easily with Kirin if he wasn't holding back. 



> We can debate over Hebi Sasuke not being above the Sannin, but he's not far from them.


 I agree.



> No sannin is defeating Kisame with low difficulty.


 How does Kisame counter Gamabunta, Manda, or Katsuyu?



> But this is not Kisame being underrated. It's the Sannin being extra powerful in Narutoforums. That extra being sometimes extra big on top of it.
> 
> When Kisame fights a Orohimaru, he doesn't fight only Oro. he fight Oro + the Sannin title + Jiraiya's  hype. Because he admitted inferiority to Jiraiya and since the Sannin name applies when it's an advantage to the Sannin, he is also trash to Oro and Tsunade.


 No it's not. Individually, by hype and feats all of the Sannin are well above Kisame. Kisame is overrated if anything, people view him as much stronger than he is actually portrayed due to misconstruing his performance in his fights. 



> The Sannin name summons other Sannin's feats, portrayal, fame and hype and turns it in a 4 vs 1 fight. Kisame (or any mid-tier kage) vs Tsunade, Orochimaru, Jiraiya and the title.


 Maybe to Sannin wankers, but most people who argue in favor of the Sannin nowadays never say they win solely because they're Sannin. They say they win because they have the hype and feats to shut Kisame down, and because Kisame admitted inferiority to them as whole himself in the series. Don't try to turn this thread into a Sannin hatefest please, the only person being wanked on this thread right now is Kisame and you know it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Sasuke was also holding back against Deidara, and could've killed him but wanted to use him to find out where Itachi was.


No , he wouldn't .
Deidara trolled him with a clone feint .


Isaiah13000 said:


> Sasuke also could've killed Deidara easily with Kirin if he wasn't holding back


No he wouldn't . No chance of him preparing it against Deidara .


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2017)

trying to use feats (when they are extremely inconsistence) is stupid within itself. Trying to use them when we have a hype/statement that X > Y, is even dumber. At the end of the day, if we were to go to that route, everyone will create the scenario that will best fulfill his agenda/opinion. One will say X will do this, while Y will be defenseless or do something retarded in order for him to fall for X. The other will say the opposite thing. Y is the one who will do this and that, and X will do all the wrong steps to fall for Y.

And frankly, if Kishi gave us that X > Y, logic wouldn't matter. He will do any scenario that ensures X beats Y. Itachi and Oro is a perfect example for that.


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## Mithos (Mar 27, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I didnt say it did 100%...i said it could very well be an exaggerated implication
> 
> I still think the statement has weight tho
> 
> I also dont use it to put pre hebi sasuke above oro



That statement only applies to Orochimaru in his youth, though. It had nothing to do with current or healthy Orochimaru.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> No , he wouldn't .
> Deidara trolled him with a clone feint .


 I meant at the end, when Sasuke punched him when he could've stabbed him with a kunai.



> No he wouldn't . No chance of him preparing it against Deidara .


 Yeah there is, Deidara doesn't have any knowledge on it at all. If Sasuke used his Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique on Deidara, Deidara would probably dodge it on his C2 Dragon and then it'd fly into the atmosphere and create storm clouds. Then once it's prepared Sasuke could use it on Deidara who has no means of countering it.


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## Rai (Mar 27, 2017)

Maybe.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 27, 2017)

Shinobi:

1. Madara
2. Naruto
3. Sasuke
4. Obito
5. DMS Kakashi
6. Hashirama
7. Orochimaru
8. Kabuto
9. Edo Minato
10. Gai
11. Nagato
12. Killer Bee
13. Tobirama
14. Danzo
15. Onoki
16 Jiraiya/Edo Itachi
17. Edo Itachi/Jiraiya
18. Mu/AAAA
19. AAAA/Mu
20. Gaara

Granted, we don't know the full power of current Kage, the full power of the 3rd Kazekage, the full power of Sakura or Lee, the full power of Hanzo, or the full power of Izuna or Sakumo. Chances are one of them is stronger than Kisame, but features haven't proven such.

Indra,Ashura,Toneri,Momoshiki,Kaguya etc. aren't shinobi so they're not ranked, Kurama and Gyuki as well.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Mithos (Mar 27, 2017)

I'm not gonna bother to list out all the characters stronger than Kisame because there are just too many of them and doing so would be a hassle lmao

Reactions: Like 3


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah there is, Deidara doesn't have any knowledge on it at all. If Sasuke used his Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique on Deidara, Deidara would probably dodge it on his C2 Dragon and then it'd fly into the atmosphere and create storm clouds. Then once it's prepared Sasuke could use it on Deidara who has no means of countering it.


Do you remember how Kirin was preped in the manga ? Sasuke needed his one fire style + Itachi's + a forest size Amaterasu + another fire style in order to prep just one shot of Kirin , and still took him a looooooong time before he got it done .


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Shinobi:
> 
> 1. Madara
> 2. Naruto
> ...



Did you include nagato and pein as the same character?


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Shinobi:
> 
> 1. Madara
> 2. Naruto
> ...


Where's Minato ?  
And why didn't you mention Gengetsu , Mu's equal ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Shinobi:
> 
> 1. Madara
> 2. Naruto
> ...



negged for not putting Minato.


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## Tri (Mar 27, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Shinobi:
> 
> 1. Madara
> 2. Naruto
> ...



I'd assume the 3rd Kazekage and Hanzo base off portrayal would be above Kisame. Hanzo specifically, but given Chiyo apparently clashed with Hanzo mutliple times and yet was shitting her pants at the very sight of the 3rd Kazekage seems pretty inconsistent unless the Manga was implying Sasori and the 3rd Kazekage were above Hanzo


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 27, 2017)

Hussain said:


> negged for not putting Minato.


Whoops, I had his edo version in top 10, not sure how I deleted it.

Well there it is, Kisame is not top 20 shinobi.

Let me edit it and put him back in.



GuidingThunder said:


> Where's Minato ?
> And why didn't you mention Gengetsu , Mu's equal ?


Because they're not equal. Mutual death battle doesn't make you equal, there's other responsibilies of a shinobi aside from one on one combat. 



La presagio said:


> Did you include nagato and pein as the same character?


They are the same shinobi.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Do you remember how Kirin was preped in the manga ? Sasuke needed his one fire style + Itachi's + a forest size Amaterasu + another fire style in order to prep just one shot of Kirin , and still took him a looooooong time before he got it done .


 He didn't need it, it simply assisted in allowing him to use Kirin even faster. He can obviously use it without Itachi's Amaterasu, it would simply take more time. It didn't take that long to use it either, if he started using it at the start of his fight with Deidara he most certainly could've pulled it off before the conclusion. It'd be meaningless to devise a jutsu that he cannot even use in battle against anyone, he can obviously still use it.


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Because they're not equal.


They killed each other in the manga , and were implyed to be equal in the DB .


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> They killed each other in the manga , and were implyed to be equal in the DB .


Feats dictate otherwise.

Mu is one of the most dangerous assassins in the manga aside from being one of the strongest war threats, and the manga portrayal puts Mu in another ballpark.

Kakuzu was killed by Wind-arc KN0 Naruto. Enough said on the mutual death point.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> They killed each other in the manga , and were implyed to be equal in the DB .



That might be true as far as match-ups go when the two face each other, but Muu's abilities would indicate that he's stronger than Nidaime Mizukage on a tier list.


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> He didn't need it, it simply assisted in allowing him to use Kirin even faster. He can obviously use it without Itachi's Amaterasu, it would simply take more time. It didn't take that long to use it either, if he started using it at the start of his fight with Deidara he most certainly could've pulled it off before the conclusion. It'd be meaningless to devise a jutsu that he cannot even use in battle against anyone, he can obviously still use it.


A forest of Amaterasu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few light years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more light years >>>>>>>>>>>> one shot of fire phoenix . Period .
And yet it took him long time to use it , in a situation where it'd take a buttload of time to prep it w/o Amaterasu .The clouds already been formed before Sasuke used his final fire jutsu in the sky , implying 90 % of the work was thanks to Ama . Not only would an IC Sasuke not start with Kirin , but the time he'd need would be longer than most fights take in the manga , in other words , the fight would end up way before that .


Isaiah13000 said:


> It'd be meaningless to devise a jutsu that he cannot even use in battle against anyone, he can obviously still use it.


Didn't say he can't use , but it was created specially to kill Itachi , and it was abvious from Sasuke's tactics that he was planning to use Itachi's Ama in order to prep it . Might explain why it was used just once in the manga .


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Feats dictate otherwise.


As far as feats go, they both have their strengths and weakness, and I consider their showings relatively equal or at least that Kishi strived the best he could to make their showings equal in the time he had. That or if anything I'd be siding a bit with Gengetsu as the Clam Mirage is a bit more useful than Mu's Invis in various situations. However ultimately my subjective interpretation of feats or anyone else's is irrelevant don't you think ? 


DaVizWiz said:


> Kakuzu was killed by Wind-arc KN0 Naruto. Enough said on the mutual death point.


No .
Kakuzu who fought team 8 + Kakashi got killed by Naruto who had the back up of Kakashi and Yamato .


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> But this is not Kisame being underrated. It's the Sannin being extra powerful in Narutoforums.


I never heard some says .. "Jiriaya roughly comparable to Nagato".. "Tsunade in top 20" , "Orochimaru could low diff to any akatsuki member except Nagato and Obito".  "SM Jiraiya could take Obito" about Sannin ! 

But ı heard all of these for Kisame. I even heard Kisame and Itachi takin down Hashirama   

Sannin are not extra powerfull.. But Kisame are not their match, any akatsuki member except dojutsu trio are not their match.. Manga is so and too clear about that. 

They're hailed as the strongest of their Era and 3 of them are mentioned for being Hokage numerous times.. And Hokages were always the strongest in Gokage versions too (even 69 year old Hiruzen too). 

So that makes them roughly comparable (if they're not better) with dudes like Muu, Tobirama, Ônoki, Old Hiruzen (55-70), Gengetsu, Yagura, Mei, A3, A4, Gaara, Rasa, 3rd Kazekage, Danzo, Hanzo etc. 

I personally can put Jiraiya higher than all of this.
Muu, Onoki and Hiruzen only obstacles for Oroc. But only obstacles not means they're superior
Yagura, Muu, Hiruzen Are only obstacles for Tsuande. 

Except Rasa, A4 and Koto Restricted Danzo... Kisame cant beat any of those Kages. He is not in the same field with them. But Sannin are per canon. 

How Jiraiya's reputation hailed against Pain - 3 time Hokage Candidate
How Healthy Oroc's existence makes Hiruzen panic and Anko wished Minato was be there ..
How Tsunade push Madara to release mokubunshins and then PS(ım also aware Madara probably beat them w/o PS too) and How saved GoKage in those conditions. Saving thousands of lifes against Pain..

These types of peak points are kinda far better than Kisame's peak points.. And those are; giving hell of a fight against restricted bee... and serving akatsuki quite well at his last moments.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Icelerate (Mar 27, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Lol my knowledge on the end of series characters is low so ignore my top placings. However
> 
> 1.Kaguya
> 2.Hashirama
> ...


DSM Kabuto is most certainly above Kisame tier wise. Same with Killer Bee. Rikudo Kakashi is missing from your list. Overall a flawed list but I agree Kisame is top 20 easily. 

You should clown some of the Tsunade wankers on this site. On NB, I was known to be very defensive in regards to Tsunade but not nearly at the level of this forum. If I feel like it, I'll make a thread why Temari could potentially beat her.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Icelerate said:


> DSM Kabuto is most certainly above Kisame tier wise. Same with Killer Bee. Rikudo Kakashi is missing from your list. Overall a flawed list but I agree Kisame is top 20 easily.
> 
> You should clown some of the Tsunade wankers on this site. On NB, I was known to be very defensive in regards to Tsunade but not nearly at the level of this forum. If I feel like it, I'll make a thread why Temari could potentially beat her.



Look at davizwiz list then come back and look at the list that you just quoted and see if you agree kisame is top 20


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## Icelerate (Mar 27, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Look at davizwiz list then come back and look at the list that you just quoted and see if you agree kisame is top 20


Kisame might swap out with Onoki, Raikage or Gaara. They are relatively on par.


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## Ishmael (Mar 27, 2017)

Icelerate said:


> Kisame might swap out with Onoki, Raikage or Gaara. They are relatively on par.



Gaara mid diff's kisame. Possibly with onoki, disagree but don't care much for the raikage.


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## Matty (Mar 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I just disagree in the notion that the Sannin would destroy Kisame. When i doubt that's a thing.
> 
> Sasuke Uchiha, who has thought of being capable enough after he became Hebi of beating Itachi, placing him above Sannin level, had a hell load of troubles against another Mid-tier Kage like Deidara.
> 
> ...



I agree with you in most respects. I definitely think that the NBD drastically stretches out power levels when in reality they are probably much closer in terms of being able to compete.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> As far as feats go, they both have their strengths and weakness, and I consider their showings relatively equal or at least that Kishi strived the best he could to make their showings equal in the time he had. That or if anything I'd be siding a bit with Gengetsu as the Clam Mirage is a bit more useful than Mu's Invis in various situations. However ultimately my subjective interpretation of feats or anyone else's is irrelevant don't you think ?
> 
> No .
> Kakuzu who fought team 8 + Kakashi got killed by Naruto who had the back up of Kakashi and Yamato .


They're not equal, Jinton can destroy almost anything that alone puts him above Gengetsu. The fact he can fly and cannot be sensed by anyone in the alliance is icing on the cake. Shikamaru & the rest of the alliance were talking about Mu individually, and Onoki, the strongest kage alive, was forced to mobilize to the battlefield to combat him individually - despite a kage already being there - with an entire shinobi division under his command behind him.

Kakuzu & Naruto faced off alone in two exchanges, the killer blow was delivered by Naruto without any help.

There are other examples, like Hebi Sasuke beating Deidara, or Sai, Kankuro & Omoi beating Deidara & Sasori, or SM Naruto killing Pain.

Dying or being defeated by someone doesn't mean you're an inferior or equal shinobi to them. Match ups are an actual thing, and one on one kage warfare isn't the only stipulation for how a shinobi is valued.

It should be noted that Mu wore out the most powerful Kage (Onoki), and was aiming down the sights to kill two Kage (Gaara & Onoki) before KCM Naruto interrupted. Gengetsu was essentially solo'd by Gaara with the help of a little information, despite the edo benefits and the horrible matchup for Gaara, and if he weren't edo he'd of been killed by sand coffin well before that, as he buried him multiple times.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Veracity (Mar 28, 2017)

Icelerate said:


> DSM Kabuto is most certainly above Kisame tier wise. Same with Killer Bee. Rikudo Kakashi is missing from your list. Overall a flawed list but I agree Kisame is top 20 easily.
> 
> You should clown some of the Tsunade wankers on this site. On NB, I was known to be very defensive in regards to Tsunade but not nearly at the level of this forum. If I feel like it, I'll make a thread why Temari could potentially beat her.



Can't believe you put Tsunade wankers in the same paragraph  as Temari beating Konoha's 5th Hokage and believed that anyone would take that seriously lol.


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## Icelerate (Mar 28, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Can't believe you put Tsunade wankers in the same paragraph  as Temari beating Konoha's 5th Hokage and believed that anyone would take that seriously lol.


No one takes me seriously now but once that thread is up, as a reversal of fortune, all the shitty arguments that attempt to refute the thread will not be taken seriously.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Xel (Mar 28, 2017)

Icelerate said:


> If I feel like it, I'll make a thread why Temari could potentially beat her.



Do it. I've been wanting to see it ever since the previous time you've mentioned this match-up (don't remember which exact thread though).


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## Infernal Imp (Mar 28, 2017)

My list is strictly the strongest versions of said characters and isn't in order save for the top 2.
Kaguya
Hagoromo
Madara
Hamura
Momoshiki fused
Naruto
Sasuke
Gai
Itachi
Nagato 
Hashirama
Obito
Toneri
Orochimaru w/ET
SM Kabuto W/ET
DMS Kakashi
Killer Bee
Edo Minato
Jiraiya
Mu/Onoki/Ay

20 Guys who I think would beat him, ranging from high diff to curbstomp. Although, I do agree that he is underrated, since apparently an abundance of people think Hidan could beat him and he loses to Konan for some god-forsaken reason


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## Turrin (Mar 28, 2017)

I have my doubts that Kisame is even top 50 anymore and that's excluding different characters incarnations. In no order i'd place all of the following Shinobi above Kisame

Kaguya
Hagoromo
Hamura
Indra
Ashura
Tonrei
Kinshiki
Momoshiki
Madara
Obito
Hashirama
Minato
Naruto
Sasuke
Kabuto
Nagato
Danzo
Prime-Hanzo
Prime-Hiruzen
Tobirama
Mito
Kushina
Shisui
White-Fang
Jiraiya
Itachi
Killer B
Mu
Gengetsu
Onoki
Tsunade
Sakura (War Arc)
Gaara
Orochimaru
Sasori
Ei
Sandaime Raikage
Yagura
Kakuzu
Deidara
Kakashi
Gai
Those are all the definite ones. Now let's talk about the debatable ones:

1. Papa Shin
2. Darui (Baruto)
3. Chojiro (Baruto)
4. Kuro (Baruto)
5. Log
6. Rasa
7. Mei
8. Kitsuchi
9. Kinkaku
10. Ginkaku
11. Mifune
12. Shodai Tsuchikage
13. Shodai Raikage
14. Nindaime Raikage
15. Shodai Mizukage
16. Sandaime Mizukage
17. Shodai Kazekage
18. Nindaime Kazekage
19. Sandaime Kazekage
20. Chiyo (Prime)
21. Monzemon
22. Konan
23. Mangetsu
24. Konohamru (Baruto)
25. Choji (Baruto)
27. Lee (Baruto)
28. Shikkamaru (Baruto)
30+. Many other Character's Boruto Incarnations

That's also excluding characters from the Novels, like the Ice chick that Schooled Ei.

So Yeah I really doubt he's even Top 50 anymore.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Sapherosth (Mar 28, 2017)

He should be in top 20, around Sannin level. Obito does seem to recognise his abilities enough to trust him to handle the Hachibi.


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## Android (Mar 28, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Naruto
> 
> Sasuke


What versions ?


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## Turrin (Mar 28, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> What versions ?


I didn't do incarnations, if I did Kisame probably wouldn't even make Top 100

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Jikaishin (Mar 28, 2017)

All I have to say is ...

Joke threat

Reactions: Agree 2


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## LostSelf (Mar 28, 2017)

Once, i made a response in a thread saying (@FlamingRain remembers):

What happens if you say a Mid-tier kage beats a Sannin:



What happened yesterday? Well, looks like i wasn't wrong  i log in yesterday, 5 notifications of the subject, and 3 today. I will answer in due time, job is taking me away or we can debate in a conversation if all of you like .


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## Android (Mar 28, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> What happens if you say a Mid-tier kage beats a Sannin:


This is so disrespectful .

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Im referring to Samehada. Samehada has not shown to be able to automatically absorb ambient chakra, as in all instances where it has absorbed chakra are when the tech had a visible aura around it or when direct physical contact had already been established. I assure you. There isn't an example in the anime that agrees with you.



What exactly are you saying here?


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## LostSelf (Mar 28, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> This is so disrespectful .



I said it like... more than a year ago and the Gif is terribly accurate. In relation to someone (don't remember who, but mostly was Tsunade being underrated) debating and being himself against 5-6 people in long debates,  losing because Flaminraing used to come in the end and he is Kamui GG personified or Katsuyu personified. It used to happen quite a lot and i had to put that Gif in relation to that brave soldier being assaulted.

Do not take seriously things like this. This is just a joke. In fact, nothing i say in this forum is with disrespectful intentions. I can troll a bit, or joke a bit or whatever. But never like throwing it personal against someone. Remember this is an anime forum, not debates about the fate of our universe. It's just to have fun.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Icelerate said:


> DSM Kabuto is most certainly above Kisame tier wise. Same with Killer Bee. Rikudo Kakashi is missing from your list. Overall a flawed list but I agree Kisame is top 20 easily.
> 
> You should clown some of the Tsunade wankers on this site. On NB, I was known to be very defensive in regards to Tsunade but not nearly at the level of this forum. If I feel like it, I'll make a thread why Temari could potentially beat her.



Shit I did forget them both and yes they are both above Kisame. I didn't put in lame powerups.



La presagio said:


> Look at davizwiz list then come back and look at the list that you just quoted and see if you agree kisame is top 20



Kisame beats every Kage besides two of the Hokage and MAYBE Gaara, Jinton is chakra food for Samehada lol

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Mar 28, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> because *Flaminraing* used to come in the end and *he is* Kamui GG personified or *Katsuyu personified.*



So him Katsuyu personified and not me? Ignore list you go


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## LostSelf (Mar 28, 2017)

Bonly said:


> So him Katsuyu personified and not me? Ignore list you go



Nooo, i wanted to mean he is like Katsuyu personified. Not that he is Katsuyu personified.

See, GuidingThunder?You made me type fast with lot of work to do and made typo and now Bonly hates me!

Go send him flowers for me!


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Accounting only for the strongest iteration of characters and not inflating the list by using multiple versions of one character:
> 
> Naruto
> Sasuke
> ...


I pretty much agree with this, I haven't seen many of the movies but I'll take your words for the movie characters, though I still think that Kakashi > everyone but Kaguya, Madara, Naruto and Sauce though 

For me Kisame is a Top 40 for sure, maybe Top 30 but I'd have to evaluate many of the kage and sadly I don't think he fits in that list.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 28, 2017)

Top 20 no way especially as we are now deep into the manga Boruto should push it back even further


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> I pretty much agree with this, I haven't seen many of the movies but I'll take your words for the movie characters, though I still think that Kakashi > everyone but Kaguya, Madara, Naruto and Sauce though
> 
> For me Kisame is a Top 40 for sure, maybe Top 30 but I'd have to evaluate many of the kage and sadly I don't think he fits in that list.



How do Kage who rely so heavily on chakra top him? I want to know how people equate these two things? The only "bad-matchups" for Kisame are Deidara and Taijutsu users who are fast (Gai maybe Lee) having him that low in a list is a travesty


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> How do Kage who rely so heavily on chakra top him? I want to know how people equate these two things? The only "bad-matchups" for Kisame are Deidara and Taijutsu users who are fast (Gai maybe Lee) having him that low in a list is a travesty


Because I'm not ranking my top 20 shinobi list based solely on if you could win a fight 1 vs. 1 or not.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Turrin (Mar 28, 2017)

Most Kages have arsenals Kisame can't absorb

Gengetsu - Uses Genjutsu and Joki Boi, both of which I doubt Kisame can absorb

Mu, Onoki, and Mei - Use Caustic Elemental Releases (Jinton and Youton). If Samehada had trouble absorbing Basic Katon Release and he struggled with a Lava Release user like Roshi, I have extreme doubts about Samehada being able & willing to absorb their Techniques.

Gaara, Rasa, and Sandaime's - Iron/Gold/Sand Style Jutsu don't seem like they can be absorbed, given Gaara's Sand couldn't be absorbed even going up against Madara using Rinnegan's HG Realm. 

Hiruzen and Kakashi - Both have massive arsenals of Ninjutsu, the chances of them having many Techniques that can't be easily absorb are very high. Both as all rounders are also highly proficient in Taijutsu and Genjutsu, which can't be absorbed.

Tsunade - Relies on her physical strength, Taijutsu, and Katsuya when in combat, non of which can be absorbed.

Minato and Tobirama - Primarily rely on using FTG to deliver stabbing or slashing attacks from their Kunai/Sword, which can't be absorbed. Also Kisame can't absorb shit at that speed anyway, proven by his inability to absorb KCM-Naruto's Shroud, because it was too quick.

Yagura - His V1/V2 form can be absorbed but he has his Full Bijuu Mode to fall back on, which can't be absorbed.

Hashirama and Naruto - 


That literally leaves 2 Kages we know about Ei and Sandaime-Raikage.


All of which I'd say Kisame is a bad match up for, rather then the other 10 kages being poor match ups for Kisame. And even then I don't think they are hopeless.

Even though Kisame can absorb Ei and Sandaime's RNY, their speed may make it difficult for Kisame to absorb their shroud in time, especially in Ei's case I could see him blitzing Kisame with his Max Speed, before Kisame can do anything like KCM-Naruto did. Sandaime also has the Amber-Sealing Jar too and we don't know if Samehada can absorb Kurokaminari. So those two have options.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Mar 28, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats exactly what i ended up with
> 
> Though i just breezed through it and slapped mine together...Might be some stupid mistakes as a result
> 
> Not enough to bump kisame up over a dozen spaces tho...I didnt hurry THAT much



Actually looking back and thinking about it I prolly wouldn't even put Kisame in the top 50 if we include god tier and multiples. I haven't watched the 2 Naruto movies so I usually don't include their villains so with them they would push Kisame above 40. Then there's Hamura, The Sages sons, Kin+Ginkaku, Prime Hanzo, Prime Hiruzen, Adult Naruto+Sasuke, possibly Kushina, and a few others which would push him out of the top 50. Even if I was to exclude the God tier and multiple forms, I think he would barely make top 30 or more likely be in the top 40.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Because I'm not ranking my top 20 shinobi list based solely on if you could win a fight 1 vs. 1 or not.


Thats fine but if Kisame can beat every Kage besides the ones in the top 10 he's obviously top 20, Kisame beats everyone outside the top 20 besides Deidara lol so honestly you have no reason to put him in the top 40 because that is just disrespectful at that point.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Actually looking back and thinking about it I prolly wouldn't even put Kisame in the top 50 if we include god tier and multiples. I haven't watched the 2 Naruto movies so I usually don't include their villains so with them they would push Kisame above 40. Then there's Hamura, The Sages sons, Kin+Ginkaku, Prime Hanzo, Prime Hiruzen, Adult Naruto+Sasuke, possibly Kushina, and a few others which would push him out of the top 50. Even if I was to exclude the God tier and multiple forms, I think he would barely make top 30 or more likely be in the top 40.



Jesus Christ, Hanzo, Hiruzen, and Kushina get shit on by....I'm not arguing this you people are insane.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Jesus Christ, Hanzo


Im pretty sure even @Troyse22 believes otherwise

Could be wrong tho



Makishima said:


> Hiruzen


Id agree here...dont see kisame losing to saru



Makishima said:


> Kushina get shit on by


Kushinas chains negged full kurama when she gave birth and had a biju ripped out of her and was literally on her deathbed

I shudder to think what those chains would do to poor little blue kisame if kushina was fresh...

Karins chains (which were stated to be similar to kushinas by oro) were capable of thrashing a mokuton Buddha statue...kisame has no durability to compare to that


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## Bonly (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Jesus Christ, Hanzo, Hiruzen, and Kushina get shit on by



Lol yeah no. Prime Hanzo and Prime Hiruzen beat him without to many problems. Kushina would likely beat him as well thanks to her chains which put up a barrier around Kurama while on her death bed and fighting style like Naruto's pre Sage Mode



> ....I'm not arguing this you people are insane.



Good for you.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Thats fine but if Kisame can beat every Kage besides the ones in the top 10 he's obviously top 20, Kisame beats everyone outside the top 20 besides Deidara lol so honestly you have no reason to put him in the top 40 because that is just disrespectful at that point.


He can't, he loses against all of the Edo Kages, War Arc Gokage (bar Gaara and maybe Tsunade depending on how the fight is set-up) and he loses against all of the Edo Hokages.

I'm agree with this more or less:


Turrin said:


> Most Kages have arsenals Kisame can't absorb
> 
> Gengetsu - Uses Genjutsu and Joki Boi, both of which I doubt Kisame can absorb
> 
> ...


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> He can't, he loses against all of the Edo Kages, War Arc Gokage (bar Gaara and maybe Tsunade depending on how the fight is set-up) and he loses against all of the Edo Hokages.



Lol no he doesn't again I ask you how both Mu and Ohnoki users of a KKG that can be absorbed beat Kisame? Mu gets sniped out of the air with GSB and Ohnoki gets trapped in WD and eviscerated lol (Mu tends to fly higher than Ohnoki does in battle) but even Mu would likely be caught.

Raikage's shroud is absorbed upon contact and he tanks their base hits lol as well as drains them every time he can (not to mention he can take the 3rd in base lol as he's not very fast)

Raasa is eh but his gold sand is much less flexible than Gaaras and Gengetsu cant use mist underwater....



WorldsStrongest said:


> Im pretty sure even @Troyse22 believes otherwise



How does Prime Hanzo who was taken out by Mifune win here lol.







> Kushinas chains negged full kurama when she gave birth and had a biju ripped out of her and was literally on her deathbed
> 
> I shudder to think what those chains would do to poor little blue kisame if kushina was fresh...
> 
> Karins chains (which were stated to be similar to kushinas by oro) were capable of thrashing a mokuton Buddha statue...kisame has no durability to compare to that



They are Chakra Chains my man, made entirely from chakra lol, that is all that needs to be said.



Bonly said:


> Lol yeah no. Prime Hanzo and Prime Hiruzen beat him without to many problems. Kushina would likely beat him as well thanks to her chains which put up a barrier around Kurama while on her death bed and fighting style like Naruto's pre Sage Mode




Lol yes, explain how Hiruzens elemental jutsu ever touch Kisame or how he and his small scale doton avoid WD? Hanzo is embarrassing for you to even bring up and Kushina is a featless shinobi with nothing but CHAKRA chains, I repeat this place is insane if you're the "long time" debater on the site.



Good for you.[/QUOTE]

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Tri (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> How does Prime Hanzo who was taken out by Mifune win here lol.


Mifune never beat prime Hanzo
Mifune beat a rust Hanzo, prime Hanzo literally beat Mifune with nothing but Ken when they fought


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> Mifune never beat prime Hanzo
> Mifune beat a rust Hanzo, prime Hanzo literally beat Mifune with nothing but Ken when they fought



Just Ken isn't beating Kisame so that doesn't help here, and I'd still put his skills lesser than Bee's who Kisame was overwhelming in CQC


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## Tri (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Just Ken isn't beating Kisame so that doesn't help here, and I'd still put his skills lesser than Bee's who Kisame was overwhelming in CQC


I was trying to portray the difference in power between prime and rusty Hanzo by emphasizing he beat a Ken master with nothing but Ken. I didn't mean Prime Hanzo would defeat Kisame with just ken

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bonly (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Lol yes, explain how Hiruzens elemental jutsu ever touch Kisame or how he and his small scale doton avoid WD?



The same way Asuma's elemental jutsu touched Kisame, Kisame isn't magically immune to being hit by elemental jutsu just because he has Samehada. Add in that Samehada has a limit to what it can absorb and add in the fact that Hiruzen can already use large AoE ninjutsu which he can then use a clone to help increase the AoE and power of his jutsu along with being better in CQC thanks to Emma and having alot of jutsu in Konoha and Hiruzen would be good.



> Hanzo is embarrassing for you to even bring up



Nagato "You are now only interested in self-preservation, you are a piece of Garbage. I once respected you. But you have changed. You don't even know why you lost! Be gone!"

The whole entire point of the Hanzo+Mifune fight is that Hanzo ended up giving up on his resolve in life which weakened him. Otherwise he kept getting hype for his Prime. Nagato hinted above that his paths only won because of Hanzo going rusty and lack of resolve and Jiraiya who's a very well informed ninja thought it was unbelievable for any one ninja alive to be able to beat him. So I'd guess Pain would be the strongest. The only thing embarrassing is you being willfully ignorant in think he doesn't stand a chance after seeing hhis hype along with the fact that he uses poison which Kisame has no defense for.



> and Kushina is a featless shinobi with nothing but CHAKRA chains, I repeat this place is insane if you're the "long time" debater on the site.



She can't be featless if she has a feat but If he chains can restrict 100 percent Kurama and put him in barrier while she's on her death bed then I don't see why a healthy Kushina would multiple chains can't overwhelm him when we've seen how Karins chains could fuck up the Buddha's arms along with a fighting style like Naruto's pre Sage Mode.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Icelerate (Mar 28, 2017)

If FT was on this site, people would be getting wrecked.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> They are Chakra Chains my man, made entirely from chakra lol, that is all that needs to be said.


You really gonna try to argue kisame can absorb a sealing barrier that could restrain 100% kurama?

Really?


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 28, 2017)

Icelerate said:


> If FT was on this site, people would be getting wrecked.


If FT is you referencing "Fairy Tail" it has its own page on the forums


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Icelerate said:


> If FT was on this site, people would be getting wrecked.



I can't wreck them all my man, I'm debating Kisame V.S Jiraiya with NarutoX lol


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Bonly said:


> The same way Asuma's elemental jutsu touched Kisame, Kisame isn't magically immune to being hit by elemental jutsu just because he has Samehada. Add in that Samehada has a limit to what it can absorb and add in the fact that Hiruzen can already use large AoE ninjutsu which he can then use a clone to help increase the AoE and power of his jutsu along with being better in CQC thanks to Emma and having alot of jutsu in Konoha and Hiruzen would be good.




Uh Samehada's limit has never been shown lol it has an instantaneous of 6Tails of chakra at one time (before fusion) and no elemental attack is carrying that amount of chakra even if it was just a V2 Jin shroud. 

When Kisame fuses anything he touches is absorbed yes, hence why he can render elemental jutsu useless in that form (X) his whole body becomes Samehada hence the fusion lol. 

I didn't know Enma was > Bee in CQC? The same Bee that put MS Sasuke on his ass, nvm when Kisame even was keeping up with V1 Bee lol it took V2 to overwhelm him in base and neither Enma nor Hiruzen have that kind of power lol. How did I know you would be the type of person to hype enma to no end, he ends up just like that racoon his chakra absorbed in one go.

"Having a lot of jutsu in Konoha" lol...pathetic.


I'm not arguing the others because its so painfully obvious that they aren't beating Kisame.


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## Bonly (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Uh Samehada's limit has never been shown lol it has an instantaneous of 6Tails of chakra at one time (before fusion) and no elemental attack is carrying that amount of chakra even if it was just a V2 Jin shroud.




So now we resort to lying? It clearly was shown to have a limit when all it did was absorb 6 tails worth of chakra instead of all of it as well as when it being unable to absorb all the chakra from Killer B's cloak and only took him down from V2 to V1. Hell Samehada didn't even absorb all of Itachi's Katon but I'm suppose to believe that Samehada is gonna absorb any and all element jutsu because you think it's limit has never been shown when said limit has been shown? Lol yeah, No. 



> When Kisame fuses anything he touches is absorbed yes, hence why he can render elemental jutsu useless in that form (X) his whole body becomes Samehada hence the fusion lol.



Once again that doesn't render anything useless since once again Samehada has a limit. The problem here is that you don't know how Samehada works along with it's limit so we're not gonna get anywhere.



> I didn't know Enma was > Bee in CQC? The same Bee that put MS Sasuke on his ass nvm when Kisame even was keeping up with V1 Bee lol it took V2 to overwhelm him in base and neither Enma nor Hiruzen have that kind of power lol. How did I know you would be the type of person to hype enma to no end, he ends up just like that racoon his chakra absorbed in one go.



If B isn't using his acrobat fighting style(which he didn't use on Kisame) then yeah Hiruzen+Emma>B in CQC. Emma is as hard as diamonds and has the ability to extend, have body parts pop out and can multiple himself, they don't need the physical power of V2 to outclass Kisame in CQC. 



> "Having a lot of jutsu in Konoha" lol...pathetic.



Not as pathetic as you not knowing how Samehada works and it's limits.



> I'm not arguing the others because its so painfully obvious that they aren't beating Kisame.



So in other words you can't actually think of a way for Kisame to beat them when you're giving ways that they can win you act like a child putting his fingers in his ears going "lalala I can't hear you lalala"? Welp concession accepted.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Lol no he doesn't again I ask you how both Mu and Ohnoki users of a KKG that can be absorbed beat Kisame? Mu gets sniped out of the air with GSB and Ohnoki gets trapped in WD and eviscerated lol (Mu tends to fly higher than Ohnoki does in battle) but even Mu would likely be caught.


Jinton obliterates Kisame unless otherwise stated, so Muu/Oonoki fly up into the air and release a battlefield-sized Jinton, something that Samehada cannot absorb and Kisame dies.



Makishima said:


> Raikage's shroud is absorbed upon contact and he tanks their base hits lol as well as drains them every time he can (not to mention he can take the 3rd in base lol as he's not very fast)


Kisame will likely absorb the shroud around the 3rd Raikage, but what's he going to do afterwards? The 3rd Raikage will likely dismember him with his strength and durability. 4th Raikage is too fast for Kisame to react too and in short Kisame dies. 



Makishima said:


> Raasa is eh but his gold sand is much less flexible than Gaaras and Gengetsu cant use mist underwater....


Gengetsu would murder-stomp Kisame w/Joki Boy and rip his waterdome asunder and then Kisame would die.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Jinton obliterates Kisame unless otherwise stated, so Muu/Oonoki fly up into the air and release a battlefield-sized Jinton, something that Samehada cannot absorb and Kisame dies.



Battlefield sized Jinton was never accomplished the super Jinton is usable only with Tsunade enhancing his Chakra lol Jinton cube has to go through Samehada to envelop Kisame, not to mention it takes time to charge and in that time the user can't move so GSB solos since it was used just as fast as hirudora.

For the last time fused Kisame absorbs chakra on contact so what is Jinton doing to a fused Kisame? Inform me please.




> Kisame will likely absorb the shroud around the 3rd Raikage, but what's he going to do afterwards? The 3rd Raikage will likely dismember him with his strength and durability. 4th Raikage is too fast for Kisame to react too and in short Kisame dies.



Lol you're joking, all he has to do is touch him and his chakra is drained my man, his speed and reactions are freduced heavily without the shroud so Kisame shreds him (not literally) with Samehada and even if he can't scratch him his chakra is still being absorbed, not to mention he has no way to escape the WD or prevent it and in there Kisame has the speed advantage by far.




> Gengetsu would murder-stomp Kisame w/Joki Boy and rip his waterdome asunder and then Kisame would die.



The Joki boy that Gaara and Ohnoki avoided? Its never touching Kisame not when he can go underground and also sense which is an exploding clone lol trollkage has no counter to GSB here I'll admit he gives Kisame the toughest matchup out of the Kage but it ends there.



Bonly said:


> So now we resort to lying? It clearly was shown to have a limit when all it did was absorb 6 tails worth of chakra instead of all of it as well as when it being unable to absorb all the chakra from Killer B's cloak and only took him down from V2 to V1. Hell Samehada didn't even absorb all of Itachi's Katon but I'm suppose to believe that Samehada is gonna absorb any and all element jutsu because you think it's limit has never been shown when said limit has been shown? Lol yeah, No.


 

You're joking, I just said it has an instantaneous limit but guess who after fusing was able to absorb the entire V2 Cloak? Kisame and Samehada lol IN SECONDS Samehada doesn't like to absorb Katon lol but Kisame has a much better control over Samehada and has already shown to be able to force things it doesn't want to do when he had it sneak him into the Jin training island. 

Also he fought a lava style user and won handily lol Samehada under Kisame's control is absorbing any Katon it throws at it never mind the other jutsu, also you just stated its limit was 6Tails of chakra un-fused so why are you even bringing up the fire-ball incident when its clearly an outlier and doesn't indicate his limit at all, trashy debater tactics I see.





> Once again that doesn't render anything useless since once again Samehada has a limit. The problem here is that you don't know how Samehada works along with it's limit so we're not gonna get anywhere.



No its clear you don't as I linked above he fused and was able to drain the cloak and he clearly drained AN ENTIRE 8 TAILS JIN OF HIS CHAKRA IN MINUTES (X) whether it be ignorance or stubbornness you're not grasping that no jutsu used against him has that much chakra, never mind the 6 tails limit you yourself claim him to have.

EVEN IF FOR SOME REASON HE CAN'T ABSORB AN ENTIRE JUTSU HE JUST USES WHAT CHAKRA HE DID ABSORB FROM IT TO HEAL (X) So stop acting like these weak ass chakra users can do anything to Kisame when he's literally designed to stomp all over them, and its the reason Kishi had to have him fight Gai 3 times throughout the manga.





> If B isn't using his acrobat fighting style(which he didn't use on Kisame) then yeah Hiruzen+Emma>B in CQC. Emma is as hard as diamonds and has the ability to extend, have body parts pop out and can multiple himself, they don't need the physical power of V2 to outclass Kisame in CQC.



Lol Kisame didn't allow him to use that style due to the huge sword he possess as well as the finesse he swings it with, please stop Kisame has supreme reactions and stomps all over Hiurzen and Enma while simultaneously draining chakra (X) it was in the V1 form that Bee put Sasuke on his ass as well and it did absolute not phase Kisame in the slightest lol meanwhile Hiruzen was having trouble with Orochimaru who was also getting wrecked by 2 tailed Naruto (X)





> Not as pathetic as you not knowing how Samehada works and it's limits.





> So in other words you can't actually think of a way for Kisame to beat them when you're giving ways that they can win you act like a child putting his fingers in his ears going "lalala I can't hear you lalala"? Welp concession accepted.



You're the one not understanding how it works my man, "it has no limit" when its completely drained an 8 tails Jin? Something that PRETA was taking much longer to do against Naruto even before it was turned to stone.

You're a joke man lol


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Battlefield sized Jinton was never accomplished the super Jinton is usable only with Tsunade enhancing his Chakra lol Jinton cube has to go through Samehada to envelop Kisame, not to mention it takes time to charge and in that time the user can't move so GSB solos since it was used just as fast as hirudora.
> 
> For the last time fused Kisame absorbs chakra on contact so what is Jinton doing to a fused Kisame? Inform me please.


He cannot because both his sword and his body undertake the damage by the attack while attempting to absorb it. Jinton would tear him out of the frame.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> He cannot because both his sword and his body undertake the damage by the attack while attempting to absorb it. Jinton would tear him out of the frame.



No that is not how it works, when you absorb chakra its properties are rendered useless....that is like saying when he absorbed Bee's raiton it should have paralyzed Kisame lol unless you're trying to say that he can only absorb AFTER an attack which also is clearly false as he absorbed the raiton before it even touched his sword or body, hence Bee and stubby Samurai Jack were surprised that they didn't pierce as far as they could. 

Just look at Preta-Path it absorbed the steaming hot-lava without getting any burns at all because he absorbed the Lava along with its properties.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> and it did absolute not phase Kisame in the slightest


Yah no. Kisame   It didn't phase him?, isn't phasing him? Lol.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> No that is not how it works, when you absorb chakra its properties are rendered useless....



 Then why was Samehada burnt by Itachi's Katon?


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Then why was Samehada burnt by Itachi's Katon?



He wasn't burnt physically he just didn't like the taste of Katon lol because it was "hot" and Bee hadn't controlled it yet, but again I say to you if it was heat Kisame has already in canon beaten a lava style Jin so it doesn't matter lol


@DeathandStrawberry he was smiling after receiving that attack so yeah, that is the definition of unphased, wasn't worried in the slightest

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> He wasn't burnt physically he just didn't like the taste of Katon lol because it was "hot" and Bee hadn't controlled it yet, but again I say to you if it was heat Kisame has already in canon beaten a lava style Jin so it doesn't matter lol



 So you're saying that even after Samehada absorbed the jutsu, Samehada still felt the burning sensation of flames even though your assertion entails that this should not have happened? Yeah, a jutsu's chakra properties aren't rendered obsolete even after it is absorbed.

 Considering Kisame struggled against a featless ninja, I certainly wouldn't be confident boasting about Kisame's victory.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> So you're saying that even after Samehada absorbed the jutsu, Samehada still felt the burning sensation of flames even though your assertion entails that this should not have happened? Yeah, a jutsu's chakra properties aren't rendered obsolete even after it is absorbed.
> 
> Considering Kisame struggled against a featless ninja, I certainly wouldn't be confident boasting about Kisame's victory.



He didn't struggle though lol he said the old man put up a fight, again you take sayings too literally.

As for Samehada it could have a dis-taste for Katon chakra especially, Bee was the one who assumed it was too hot lol again I say to you it was absorbing Lava style and the Jin shroud which was said to be hot/acidic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> He didn't struggle though lol he said the old man put up a fight, again you take sayings too literally.
> 
> As for Samehada it could have a dis-taste for Katon chakra especially, Bee was the one who assumed it was too hot lol again I say to you it was absorbing Lava style and the Jin shroud which was said to be hot/acidic.



 Roshi put up a fight, Kisame had to beat him to the brink of death, and Kisame admitted to being tired despite his gargantuan reserves. This all instantiates a difficult battle.

 If Samehada could absorb Yoton, then Roshi would've been a walk in the park. V2 Bee's shroud is also never described as corrosive. We've seen countless situations where a V2 Jin's acidity didn't take place such as against Ginkaku, Obito's V2 Jins, and Orochimaru vs. KN4 Naruto (when Naruto was punched directly).


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

Makishima said:


> No that is not how it works, when you absorb chakra its properties are rendered useless....that is like saying when he absorbed Bee's raiton it should have paralyzed Kisame lol unless you're trying to say that he can only absorb AFTER an attack which also is clearly false as he absorbed the raiton before it even touched his sword or body, hence Bee and stubby Samurai Jack were surprised that they didn't pierce as far as they could.
> 
> Just look at Preta-Path it absorbed the steaming hot-lava without getting any burns at all because he absorbed the Lava along with its properties.


No you're wrong, re-read what happened with Killer Bee and Itachi, Samehada doesn't like the flame element and thereby extensions of said element.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> No you're wrong, re-read what happened with Killer Bee and Itachi, Samehada doesn't like the flame element and thereby extensions of said element.



Thats asinine as I assume you're trying to say because Jinton contains Katon it won't be absorbed now? But as I just said Kisame defeated an opponent who uses the Lava releases which also contains Katon and there is no way he didn't use Samehada so your point is moot lol. 



UchihaX28 said:


> Roshi put up a fight, Kisame had to beat him to the brink of death, and Kisame admitted to being tired despite his gargantuan reserves. This all instantiates a difficult battle.
> 
> If Samehada could absorb Yoton, then Roshi would've been a walk in the park. V2 Bee's shroud is also never described as corrosive. We've seen countless situations where a V2 Jin's acidity didn't take place such as against Ginkaku, Obito's V2 Jins, and Orochimaru vs. KN4 Naruto (when Naruto was punched directly).



True enough lol but you can't sit here and tell me Kisame didn't use Samehada against a Jin ..... his Samehada was obviously used and again it absorbed Raiton yet felt no shock from it, just because it reacted to Katon once means nothing here, he admitted to being tired right after he said he would go after Naruto lol, he clearly meant he was tired from all the hunting and what have you as made clear by his next statement. His clothing was perfectly in-tact which meant he didn't even have to fuse with Samehada it wasn't a hard fight.


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 28, 2017)

Turrin said:


> I have my doubts that Kisame is even top 50 anymore and that's excluding different characters incarnations. In no order i'd place all of the following Shinobi above Kisame
> 
> Kaguya
> Hagoromo
> ...


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 28, 2017)

Kisame is very underrated but hes not top 20


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## Skaddix (Mar 28, 2017)

To be fair the poster said Ninja. So lets limit it to Humans. that were active when Kisame was active. So Pre War Arc and War Arc.

With those stipulation he still have trouble making the list


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 29, 2017)

Am I missing something, or is 2017 Kisame appreciation year or some shit…

Wassup with all these Kisame threads?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 29, 2017)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Am I missing something, or is 2017 Kisame appreciation year or some shit…
> 
> Wassup with all these Kisame threads?


I asked the same question on another thread...The amount of kisame around is horrendous lately

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Mar 29, 2017)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Am I missing something, or is 2017 Kisame appreciation year or some shit…
> 
> Wassup with all these Kisame threads?


Things've changed a lot while you were out .
So much that your nonsense detecting device would blow up in an instant .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 29, 2017)

The conversion has begun, I told you all!


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## Ishmael (Mar 30, 2017)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Am I missing something, or is 2017 Kisame appreciation year or some shit…
> 
> Wassup with all these Kisame threads?



Its wank the kisame wanking era.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ishmael (Mar 30, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Jesus Christ, Hanzo, Hiruzen, and Kushina get shit on by....I'm not arguing this you people are insane.



I don't even know why you'd argue kisame beating hiruzen. But hanzo beats him, prime hanzo that is, takes him out pretty quickly probably.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 30, 2017)

I hope you're not actually going to argue that old Hiruzen beats Kisame 




La presagio said:


> I don't even know why you'd argue kisame beating hiruzen. But hanzo beats him, prime hanzo that is, takes him out pretty quickly probably.


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## Ishmael (Mar 30, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I hope you're not actually going to argue that old Hiruzen beats Kisame



Prime, same as what bonly said when he  replied to the other guy. prime hanzo and  hiruzen.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 31, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Things've changed a lot while you were out .
> So much that your nonsense detecting device would blow up in an instant .


Don't get me wrong, I like Kisame as much as the next guy, but this is ridiculous.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Mar 31, 2017)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Don't get me wrong, I like Kisame as much as the next guy, but this is ridiculous.


NSFW 

*Spoiler*: __ 



- Kisame is above JJ Madara in reation speed based on feats .
- Nagato = Kisame .
- Kisame >> healthy Itachi > sick Itachi > Pain .
- Kisame > BM Naruto / BM Minato .
- Kisame > BSM Minato /BSM Naruto .
- Kisame has tsunade level strength , speed on par with V2 A , and durability on par with Madara's V3 Susanoo .
- Daikodan eats 12 BijuuDama , tears through Madara's Iso Susanoo , then one shots both Madara and Kurama .

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2017)

1. Kaguya
2. Hagoromo 
3. Hamura
4. Madara
5. Momoshiki 
6. Naruto 
7. Sasuke 
8. Ashura
9. Indra
10. Obito 
11. DMS Kakashi 
12. Hashirama  
13. 8G guy 
14. Nagato 
15. Kabuto 
16. Killer bee
17. Tobirama
18. Minato 
19. Itachi 
20. Third raikage
21. Muu 
22. Ay 
23. SM Jiraiya 
24. Onoki 
25. *Kisame*
26. Orochimaru 
27. Gengetsu
28. Gaara
29. Tsunade
30. Mei 


So kisame is top 25

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Android (Mar 31, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> 12. Hashirama
> 13. 8G guy





ARGUS said:


> 16. Killer bee
> 17. Tobirama
> 18. Minato
> 19. Itachi
> ...



2nd most shittiest tier list in this thread .


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> 2nd most shittiest tier list in this thread .


Stay salty kid


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## Zexion~ (Mar 31, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Prime, same as what bonly said when he  replied to the other guy. prime hanzo and  hiruzen.



Prime Hiurzen is just Old Hiruzen +

-Elemental Jutsu that are chakra fodder for Samehada 

-Weak KKG of the leaf (if we take in hype) that don't do anything here.


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## Shining Force (Apr 1, 2017)

Prime Hiruzen is Hagoromo's reincarnation. He solos all!


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> NSFW
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



If you're talking about me, I don't believe quite a few things you listed there


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## Android (Apr 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> If you're talking about me, I don't believe quite a few things you listed there


I was talking about someone else


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> I was talking about someone else



Good to know


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## sanninme rikudo (Apr 1, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> NSFW
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


LMAO!
I already have a pretty good idea of where that stuff came from.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 2, 2017)

He's probably in the top 40. To even scrape it into the top 20 he'd have to be in the same league as SM Jiraiya, Minato or Tobirama, and .. he isn't. lol

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Zexion~ (Apr 2, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He's probably in the top 40. To even scrape it into the top 20 he'd have to be in the same league as SM Jiraiya, Minato or Tobirama, and .. he isn't. lol



Lolololol @ SM Jiraiya being anywhere above top 35

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 2


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 2, 2017)

This Kisame hype is ridiculous honestly, like the few people on this thread that are hyping a fanfic Kisame needs to re-read the damn manga/databook like you know there smoking something when they say (kisame=Nagato (fucking nagato.... wtf), Kisame >Minato (portrayal alone stomps him...), Kisame > SM Jiraiya (boy was holding on to Itachi when base Jiraiya did a simple summon.... that should tell you something... and dont say "ooo it was part 1 Kisame", etc) so no Kisame is NOT TOP 20 in the NARUTO UNIVERSE

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 2, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Lolololol @ SM Jiraiya being anywhere above top 35



The person who says hes top 20 in the NARUTO UNIVERSE


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## Zexion~ (Apr 2, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> This Kisame hype is ridiculous honestly, like the few people on this thread that are hyping a fanfic Kisame needs to re-read the damn manga/databook like you know there smoking something when they say (kisame=Nagato (fucking nagato.... wtf), Kisame >Minato (portrayal alone stomps him...), Kisame > SM Jiraiya (boy was holding on to Itachi when base Jiraiya did a simple summon.... that should tell you something... and dont say "ooo it was part 1 Kisame", etc) so no Kisame is NOT TOP 20 in the NARUTO UNIVERSE



Lol you people need to understand portrayal, KISAME DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO LEAVE Itachi was the one who had to remind him they weren't there for battle.

Then of course he stomped a V2 Bee who shits on Jiraiya lol and casually laughed at it.

What people say means nothing UNLESS THE ACTIONS MIMIC THE WORDS, for instance when Suigetsu was peeing himself after stating Oro would stomp him, was Kisame visibly scared of Jiraiya? No he wasn't he laughed while saying those words.

He also stood his ground when he appeared directly in front of him

*Spoiler*: __ 










Would someone who fully believed he was inferior not rather jump away from the man he believes could beat him? Would he not LAUGH AND MOCK HIM

Please you can only use portrayal because his feats are not even half of what Kisame's are.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 2, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Please you can only use portrayal because his feats are not even half of what Kisame's are.



You trolling or what? You honestly think the majority of people on this thread is concentrating on portrayal.... no we know all of there abilities and how they actually work not this fanfic Kisame you guys made up, like in your head you think Kisame is like Preta path which can absorb any chakra near him which is laughable and the manga/databook clearly shows otherwise. And as for your buddy troy he thinks Kisame is equal to characters like Nagato which is beyond belief imo

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jikaishin (Apr 2, 2017)

This is still ongoing ?

That was funny when it was one or two pages, but four pages on this nonsense is going too far

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zexion~ (Apr 2, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> You trolling or what? You honestly think the majority of people on this thread is concentrating on portrayal.... no we know all of there abilities and how they actually work not this fanfic Kisame you guys made up, like in your head you think Kisame is like Preta path which can absorb any chakra near him which is laughable and the manga/databook clearly shows otherwise. And as for your buddy troy he thinks Kisame is equal to characters like Nagato which is beyond belief imo



Lol are you trying to tell me that Samehada can't absorb external chakra....when there are scans of him absorbing 

-Shrouds
-Streams
-NInjutsu in general 

Lmfaooooooo sure budy


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## Ishmael (Apr 3, 2017)

Kisame against SM jiraiya is yomi numa GG.


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Kisame against SM jiraiya is yomi numa GG.


Even though Kisame has his own Doton that renders Jiraiya's obsolete?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Kisame against SM jiraiya is yomi numa GG.



Daikodan no jutsu
Samehada
Or Kisame uses his Doton that allows him to swim through earth.

Yomi Numa gg? Don't make me laugh fam


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## Android (Apr 3, 2017)

Base Jman owned Kisame like a bitch with a basic summon 

SM Jiraiya tears Kisame a new one


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Base Jman owned Kisame like a bitch with a basic summon
> 
> SM Jiraiya tears Kisame a new one



Jiraiya should just count himself lucky that Kisame was obedient toward Itachi, otherwise Jiraiya would have died that day. It would've been no diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiya should just count himself lucky that Kisame was obedient toward Itachi, otherwise Jiraiya would have died that day. It would've been no diff.


No , Kisame should be thankful that Itachi was there to save his ass , otherwise he'd end up as a toad crap .


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> No , Kisame should be thankful that Itachi was there to save his ass , otherwise he'd end up as a toad crap .



I've explained this to you multiple times, -snip- i'll do it one more time for shits and gigs though.

If Kisame intended on fighting Jiraiya when toad stomach came up, he would have flooded the stomach, either killing Jiraiya or forcing the release of the jutsu.

We've seen him shred the stomach when Samehada was stuck in the stomach, he had little to worry about, it's pretty clear if Kisame was intent on disobeying Itachi and pushing the attack against Jiraiya, he would have succeeded, with or without Itachi. Kisame's statements were based entirely off of P1 Sannin hype, nothing more. His statement is as ridiculous as Jiraiya saying he could take them out both at once, and Itachi saying more Akatsuki wouldn't change the outcome of the battle 

Itachi clearly saved Jiraiya that day by pulling himself and Kisame back, and not bringing in more Akatsuki to kill Jiraiya (they weren't needed, but Itachi saved Jiraiya's ass that day)

Based on feats and not ridiculous Sannin hype and portrayal: Kisame>>Healthy Itachi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SM Jiraiya

Can sit there and wank Jiraiya's hype as much you want, none of the Sannin lived up to their hype, not even close. Jiraiya got trashed when the six paths assembled, and was pushed hard by 3 paths.

Oro got negged by Itachi twice

Tsunade got negged when Mads got serious, and got saved by Orochimaru


I can't believe you and some other people think Base Jiraiya can take on the entirety of the Akatsuki, it's absurd.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Skaddix (Apr 3, 2017)

Like I said that argument only works if you believe Kishi actually knew what Itachi and Kisame could do back then.


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I've explained this to you multiple times, but you seem to enjoy being stupid, i'll do it one more time for shits and gigs though.
> 
> If Kisame intended on fighting Jiraiya when toad stomach came up, he would have flooded the stomach, either killing Jiraiya or forcing the release of the jutsu.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya had to retreat and use the specific location he was in to beat Animal, Human and Preta path so unless those three together are top 20 material Jiraiya should be no where above top 35 lmfao


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## Skaddix (Apr 3, 2017)

Not to mention Jiriaya was in underground tunnels. How many fights in naruto take place in tunnels?


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

Then there is the fact that Jiraiya was shit-scared of the Akatsuki and snuck around (never confronting them directly) trying to grab intel for like 5 years lol if we wana talk about "portrayal" thats pretty weak


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## Android (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Wall of horseshit .



Ruuuun Kisame , run like a lttle asshole .

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Then there is the fact that Jiraiya was shit-scared of the Akatsuki and snuck around (never confronting them directly) trying to grab intel for like 5 years lol if we wana talk about "portrayal" thats pretty weak


Lol .
Lol , that's how spying works . Doesn't mean he was scared of the akatsuki , otherwise he wouldn't have went to the rain village to face Pain lol .
Lol .
Meanwhile , the other clown Itachi worked for the Akatsuki for 10 years and delivered zero information to Konoha about the Akatsuki , their plans ..... etc 
Lolol 
Never once did Itachi faced any Akatsuki member , this doesn't mean he was scared , that's just the nature of his work .
Lol .


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## Blu-ray (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Then there is the fact that Jiraiya was shit-scared of the Akatsuki and snuck around (never confronting them directly) trying to grab intel for like 5 years lol if we wana talk about "portrayal" thats pretty weak



It was the exact opposite though. Akataski never approached Naruto during the three year timeskip for the sole reason that Jiraiya was with him, and...

>Scared shitless of Akatsuki
>Attacked it's leader by himself

Yeah the latter directly contradicts any notion of the former. Besides, you can't exactly attack them without gathering intel first. I mean, how would he even know where they were?


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## Ishmael (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Jiraiya had to retreat and use the specific location he was in to beat Animal, Human and Preta path so unless those three together are top 20 material Jiraiya should be no where above top 35 lmfao



Kisame wouldn't have performed any better....im confused￼


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## Android (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Based on feats and not ridiculous Sannin hype and portrayal: Kisame>>Healthy Itachi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SM Jiraiya


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Kisame wouldn't have performed any better....im confused￼



Wrong, Kisame would've clowned the 3 paths.

Only one that gives him remotely a hard time would be Cerberus, and Suiton clone into Water Prison is effective.

Other summons get their heads turned to paste by Kisame.

Human dies in the crossfire
Preta dies in CQC, one hit from Samehada and he dies, the paths have crap durability.

Kisame at his full power, with Samehada, near an ocean 

Pein gets crushed with mid diff at the absolute max.



Blu-ray said:


> It was the exact opposite though. Akataski never approached Naruto during the three year timeskip for the sole reason that Jiraiya was with him, and...
> 
> >Scared shitless of Akatsuki
> >Attacked it's leader by himself
> ...



Gross.

The Akatsuki didn't approach Naruto because getting Naruto was not of the utmost importance per Itachi's statement.

It's pretty clear the Akatsuki could've taken Naruto any time, Itachi could've done it alone, Kisame could've done it alone, Pein could've, Obito could've, Hidan and Kakuzu could've did it, Deidara and Sasori could've.

The only Akatsuki who can't beat Jiraiya is Konan.


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## Android (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Wrong, Kisame would've clowned the 3 paths.


How would he clown the 3 paths when a man who'd take a dump on Kisame's mouth , couldnt do it easily 


Any 2 paths comb would rape Kisame


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## Ishmael (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Wrong, Kisame would've clowned the 3 paths.
> 
> Only one that gives him remotely a hard time would be Cerberus, and Suiton clone into Water Prison is effective.
> 
> ...



Hidan can't either lol... So much bs in one post...but anyways that's not my part.


Preta trolls anything kisame tries to barf out, summons ,specifically the ceberus wreck kisame and human really doesn't have to do anything. 

He has nothing to detect the animal path when the chameleon comes into play.

In cqc if he were to try it with the human path shared vision trolls him, point blank he gets dodged and his soul gets snatched.

I won't go down the pein vs kisame road with you again, have no time for dips and slobbers.


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## Blu-ray (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Gross.
> 
> The Akatsuki didn't approach Naruto because getting Naruto was not of the utmost importance* per Itachi's statement.*
> 
> ...


Y'know, it's funny that you of all people say that, but then go on to ignore Kisame's own statement of him being weaker than Jiraiya.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Y'know, it's funny that you of all people say that, but then go on to ignore Kisame's own statement of him being weaker than Jiraiya.



Because that's one of the only statements in that battle that's accurate.

The Akatsuki weren't in a hurry to get Naruto.

Also, Itachi made bullshit statements, Kisame did and so did Jiraiya.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Hidan can't either lol... So much bs in one post...but anyways that's not my part.
> 
> 
> Preta trolls anything kisame tries to barf out, summons ,specifically the ceberus wreck kisame and human really doesn't have to do anything.
> ...



Since you're not willing to debate, i'll just say concession accepted and move on


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## Blu-ray (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Because that's one of the only statements in that battle that's accurate.
> 
> The Akatsuki weren't in a hurry to get Naruto.
> 
> Also, *Itachi made bullshit statements,* Kisame did and so did Jiraiya.


And the Akatsuki not being in a rush to get Naruto wasn't one of those bullshit statements?

Itachi had reason to lie since that's integral to his actual character. What reason did Kisame or Jiraiya have?


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> And the Akatsuki not being in a rush to get Naruto wasn't one of those bullshit statements?



No it wasn't, because even Kisame knew they weren't in a rush, and that's why he didn't protest that point.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

My post gets snipped, but baiting and never providing an argument is perfectly fine?

You're an awful mod @Blu-ray

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Blu-ray (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> No it wasn't, because even Kisame knew they weren't in a rush, and that's why he didn't protest that point.


No one ever protested Kisame's claim of him being weaker than Jman either so....






Troyse22 said:


> My post gets snipped, _but baiting and never providing an argument is perfectly fine?_


If it was your post wouldn't have been snipped in the first place, considering the part that got snipped was literally that.


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Kisame wouldn't have performed any better....im confused￼


Yes he would have he wins that matchup medium difficulty



Blu-ray said:


> It was the exact opposite though. Akataski never approached Naruto during the three year timeskip for the sole reason that Jiraiya was with him, and...
> 
> >Scared shitless of Akatsuki
> >Attacked it's leader by himself
> ...



I thought of that right after I posted it, I'm just tired of yall using nothing but portrayal in a VS thread lol wanking characters is for the discussion section this is for feats and a fight to see who would win, in which case Kisame would beat Jiraiya.

@Guilding Itachi kept the Akatsuki out of the leaf, hence when he died Obito stated "now that Itachi's gone we can go for the leaf"


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## Android (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> @Guilding Itachi kept the Akatsuki out of the leaf, hence when he died Obito stated "now that Itachi's gone we can go for the leaf"


Lol , that's abviously not true since Kakuzu and Hidan were going to attack Konoha when Itachi was still alive .


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> No one ever protested Kisame's claim of him being weaker than Jman either so....



Tired of running in circles with you, it's a shame you can't throw mods on ignore.

Kisame's statement was based off o...y'know what why explain it to a close minded Sannin wanker 



Blu-ray said:


> If it was your post wouldn't have been snipped in the first place, considering the part that got snipped was literally that.





Not sure what you call half of Guidingthunders posts then   

Anyways, don't quote me or speak to me anymore, pretend as if we're on each others ignore, because you're annoying and biased.



Makishima said:


> Yes he would have he wins that matchup medium difficulty



Even mid difficulty is a stretch.

Right outside is an ocean, Kisame has Samehada, Kisame has Killing Intent....i'm not sure what Pein could hope to accomplish outside of throwing him into the water a couple of times with ST that does literally nothing


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

Also to EVERYONE USING PORTRAYAL ONLY and something a laughing Kisame said I'm putting this here 

advantage

Idek if this is allowed but god help us it needs to be put on this site


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Lol , that's abviously not true since Kakuzu and Hidan were going to attack Konoha when Itachi was still alive .



Notice how Itachi was shown with Sharingan activated when they announced they were going to the leaf lol he was obviously not informed


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> I'm just tired of yall using nothing but portrayal



I could list off 10 debaters who do this too much now.

They used to be very great debaters, but they've regressed into wanking "The Featless Sannin" it's a shame too.

Their best feat as a team is forcing Hanzo to low difficulty


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Notice how Itachi was shown with Sharingan activated when they announced they were going to the leaf lol he was obviously not informed



That's actually interesting, I never noticed that before admittedly 

i wonder if Itachi would've intervened on behalf of Konoha if Kakuzu and Hidan made it there


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> That's actually interesting, I never noticed that before admittedly
> 
> i wonder if Itachi would've intervened on behalf of Konoha if Kakuzu and Hidan made it there



Hidan and Kakuzu are my favorites lol and I've seen that Arc in the anime way too many times and I've always noticed it and wondered the same thing, who knows Kishi decided to ass-blast them both in terms of the ending to those fights due to fans crying about not enough Sasuke.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Hidan and Kakuzu are my favorites lol and I've seen that Arc in the anime way too many times and I've always noticed it and wondered the same thing, who knows Kishi decided to ass-blast them both in terms of the ending to those fights due to fans crying about not enough Sasuke.



Yeah it's a shame the Immortal's arc was rushed, i'm pretty sure even Kishi said he intended to make Hidan much stronger. Sad really, I wonder how many other characters didn't get to realize their full potential on panel due to rushing.

Yagura comes to mind, the guy sadly only has a few feats in canon, and the feat of surviving a direct Amaterasu in the Anime.


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah it's a shame the Immortal's arc was rushed, i'm pretty sure even Kishi said he intended to make Hidan much stronger. Sad really, I wonder how many other characters didn't get to realize their full potential on panel due to rushing.
> 
> Yagura comes to mind, the guy sadly only has a few feats in canon, and the feat of surviving a direct Amaterasu in the Anime.



The life of a Shounen jump series lmao


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Notice how Itachi was shown with Sharingan activated when they announced they were going to the leaf lol he was obviously not informed





Troyse22 said:


> That's actually interesting, I never noticed that before admittedly



You never noticed it because there was literally nothing to notice 

Itachi having his sharingan active upon the zombie duos declaration means jack shit...There isnt one panel in the entire manga where itachi isnt using 3T in a casual conversation after joining akatsuki...

Him having his sharingan active isnt indicative of him being pissed or otherwise triggered...

If it was MS...You would have half a point...


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## Blu-ray (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame's statement was based off o...y'know what why explain it to a close minded Sannin wanker


You couldn't even answer and had to resort to an ad-hominem, proof of no retort. That's what happens when you ground your debates in cherry picking. You cite characters' words when they suite you and dismiss them on arbitrary reasons when they do not, so its no surprise it didn't hold up.



> Anyways, don't quote me or speak to me anymore,


oops.



> you're annoying and biased.


Same as your Kisame fixation then.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Yes he would have he wins that matchup medium difficulty
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most of Kisame's feats was where he mainly had favorable stips

Against guy:
-he was high off 8 tails chakra
- Had the location/terrestrial advantage as they were fighting in an ocean
- Guy wasnt allowed to kill him

Against Bee:

- Bee wasn't able to use BM,
-forced to guard two fodder Kisame openly uses as bait the entire battle while the jinchuriki has no knowledge on him whatsoever.
He also hard countered him in CQC via chakra absorption from Bee's clearly visible chakra shroud.(1)(2)(3) 

You could say Jiraiya had favourable stips in his battles as well, but not to a degree such as this

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You never noticed it because there was literally nothing to notice
> 
> Itachi having his sharingan active upon the zombie duos declaration means jack shit...There isnt one panel in the entire manga where itachi isnt using 3T in a casual conversation after joining akatsuki...
> 
> ...



I suppose your right, but the point is Kishi drew that panel of Itachi for a reason lol not just a glance at his face either the "...." means something as well.


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Most of Kisame's feats was where he mainly had favorable stips
> 
> Against guy:
> -he was high off 8 tails chakra
> ...



Are you good? 

How is fighting someone who doesn't utilize chakra favorable for someone who's main asset is absorbing chakra......stop Gai is his worst matchup in the manga.

Lol @ Bee, the fodder were tossed right when the water dome was used and they weren't even relevant in the CQC battle lol 

He hard counters everyone who uses chakra for CQC enhancement, or anyone who uses ninjutsu (to a certain extent) so whats your point.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> I suppose your right, but the point is Kishi drew that panel of Itachi for a reason lol not just a glance at his face either the "...." means something as well.


I think thats a stretch to say the least

Nearly every time itachi is shown in a panel he has "....." if he isnt speaking directly



Im sure you get the picture


And as i already pointed out earlier...And as you can see from the above scans...The dude sleeps with his 3T active...So him having it on means nothing here either.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 3, 2017)

Makishima said:


> How is fighting someone who doesn't utilize chakra favorable for someone who's main asset is absorbing chakra......stop Gai is his worst matchup in the manga.


Guys main fighting style was taijutsu, which was made in effective because they were in the middle of the ocean, you forget that? Kisame was high off Bee's 8 tails chakra, you forget about that? Guy wasn't allowed to kill Kisame, you forget about that? Guy is his worst matchup, in a regular battle not when stips are horribly favoured towards Kisame, try again 




Makishima said:


> He hard counters everyone who uses chakra for CQC enhancement, or anyone who uses ninjutsu (to a certain extent) so whats your point.


Because Bee had a clearly visible chakra shroud surrounding him, which is perfect for Samehada's absorption? Samehada has never been shown to absorb ambient chakra instantly, he needs either visible contact, to directly absorb it from a shroud. He had an obvious advantage dude, its really easy to see that
But hey lets forget Bee couldn't use BM as well

as for the fodders that was a mistake on my half, as I was being too general


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## Zexion~ (Apr 3, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I think thats a stretch to say the least
> 
> Nearly every time itachi is shown in a panel he has "....." if he isnt speaking directly
> 
> ...



Lmaoooo this is true but again the point is that why would Kishi draw in Itachi there? He was no where in the conversation and its not like Kisame or any other of the Akatsuki bar the immortals and Deidara were interacting, idk its a lot more jarring in the anime but still


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

It's clear that those "....'s" are meant to show Itachi thinking.

The Sharingan activation is meaningless as you proved, I guess it wasn't as interesting as I thought.


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## Ishmael (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Since you're not willing to debate, i'll just say concession accepted and move on



Concession kid I was debating kisame vs 3 paths the fuck you talking about? I know you like to try and force concessions on debaters when they don't even concede and I refuse to be one.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 3, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Concession kid I was debating kisame vs 3 paths the fuck you talking about? I know you like to try and force concessions on debaters when they don't even concede and I refuse to be one.



Watch out we got a badass over here 

You provided points I already addressed, stop being foolish.

Cerberus is dealt with by a Suiton clone into Water Prison.
Human dies in the crossfire
Preta is raped in CQC.

I can go into huge detail on Kisame vs Pein, but i'll see how i feel tomorrow, maybe i'll even do a TBCA for shits.


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## Ishmael (Apr 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Watch out we got a badass over here
> 
> You provided points I already addressed, stop being foolish.
> 
> ...



Just start a thread. Makes me no difference￼add a poll too.


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## Charmed (Apr 4, 2017)

No, Kisame is not that strong, he's strong but not that much.

In Akatsuki I can see these Akatsuki defeating Kisame:
  Pain, Konan, Itachi, Obito, Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Orochimaru (maybe), Hidan believe it or not has a chance too.

Pain: It's just to much.
Obito: Kamui and Izanagi (take them away and Kisame wins)
Konan: She can fly, and separate in thousands of sheets of paper, that Kisame can't hit or avoid all, she has explosions and a lot of stamina.
Sasori: Kisame always gets scratched in all his fights, even by Asuma or a random jounin in  Turtle Island. Sasori is way better and faster that those 2. Kisame looses this one.
Itachi: Itachi is just better.
Kakuzu: this is a tough one but it could go either way, although I'm giving Kakuzu the edge, couse of raiton nd his battle experience.
Orochimaru: Ok the snake lacks power, it could go either  way, who knows, maybe Kisame wins this one.
Deidara: Overall, I think Kisame is better, Deidara is just a bad match up for Kisame, he cna fly and use C4. Kisame has no raiton.
Hidan: well, Kisame always start with Kenjutsu, and I see Hidan being better at that than Kisame and probably faster, couse Hidan was as fast as Kakashi with Sharingan and Hidan has great evasion, Kisame doesn't. Hidan has a good chance although Kisame is more powerful than Hidan.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 4, 2017)

Yeah Kisame literally admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. I don't really know how that could be misconstrued or misunderstood.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 4, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yeah Kisame literally admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. I don't really know how that could be misconstrued or misunderstood.




Tsunade is in the name.
Tsunade is a Sannin

Connect the dots.

Kisames feats invalidate his P1 statement. Either Kisame was hugely overestimating Jiraiya or hugely underestimating himself.

Now go kneel before your Sannin altsr


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## Ishmael (Apr 4, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yeah Kisame literally admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. I don't really know how that could be misconstrued or misunderstood.



His feats and performance in p2 does imo, we got a completely different kisame from p1 in p2.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 4, 2017)

Nah he was the exact same character, he just got more panel time in Part 2.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 4, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Nah he was the exact same character, he just got more panel time in Part 2.



He was on a vastly different power level in compared to P1 or P2.

His statement was made in P1, when Kishi wasn't thinking of things like Daikodan, Waterdome, Samehada merge, 1000 feeding sharks etc. Based on his P2 feats, his P1 statement is irrelevant.

If we assume that Kisame had this stuff in P1, then it's INSANE to assume he'd be worried of Jiraiya.

It's already insane to assume that SM Jiraiya can battle Kisame, but to assume that Base Jiraiya can take on an unrestricted Kisame is laughably ridiculous.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> He was on a vastly different power level in compared to P1 or P2.
> 
> His statement was made in P1, when Kishi wasn't thinking of things like Daikodan, Waterdome, Samehada merge, 1000 feeding sharks etc.



Maybe, maybe not. That's simply baseless speculation, not a counter argument in itself. 



> If we assume that Kisame had this stuff in P1, then it's INSANE to assume he'd be worried of Jiraiya.
> 
> It's already insane to assume that SM Jiraiya can battle Kisame, but to assume that Base Jiraiya can take on an unrestricted Kisame is laughably ridiculous.



Kisame's statement was never actually contradicted. I'm sorry that you find it insane that Kisame, with all of his Mid-Kage level feats, admitted inferiority to Jiraiya.


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