# VOTE Madara vs All Kages



## ARGUS (Jun 15, 2014)

*VOTE Madara vs ALL Kages (NO Hashi)*

Starting Distance: 40m
Location: Madara vs 5 kages
Intel: Manga
Intent: To Kill
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: RDS, Kyuubi for Minato, Amber Sealing pot, ET

--All kages are alive,,,, 
--Kages are All hokages bar Hashirama (Minato doesnt  have kyuubi),,,, All shown Raikages,,  Kazekages,,Mizukages,, and Tsuchikages
*Who wins?  *
I personally think VOTE Madara wins


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## Itachі (Jun 15, 2014)

I think that Tobirama can get Madara before he enters PS, since he was called the fastest Shinobi in Madara's time. If he isn't attacked before though, I doubt much could penetrate his PS unless they all made a co-ordinated attack. Would Jinton work on Susan'oo?


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## ARGUS (Jun 15, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> I think that Tobirama can get Madara before he enters PS, since he was called the fastest Shinobi in Madara's time. If he isn't attacked before though, I doubt much could penetrate his PS unless they all made a co-ordinated attack. Would Jinton work on Susan'oo?


Madara has the kyuubi here as well,, and once he armors it in PS,,, and fires PS-infused TBB barrages then all the kages are done for IMO,,,


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## Itachі (Jun 15, 2014)

^Ah, I forgot about the Kyubi. Madara takes this then.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 15, 2014)

..VOTE Madara didn't have


 Hashirama's DNA - no mokuton
 Hashirama's Sage Mode - no super durability, regeneration and speed boosts
 Instantaneous chakra regeneration via edo tensei
 The Rinnegan

All he had was his EMS, and even then he needed the Kyuubi on top of that to equal Hashirama in power. 

You're pitting him against _21_ other Kage-level shinobi, who collaboratively >>>>>>>>>> Hashirama. Madara is absolutely _stomped_.

If Madara has the Kyuubi here, then the Hokage can create clones to make a barrier seal to hold it down, like they did with the Juubi. Then Hiruzen and Minato can seal it inside themselves.​​


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## tkpirate (Jun 15, 2014)

with Kyuubi Madara destroyes them.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 15, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> All he had was his EMS



Perfect susano'o let Madara one shot the collective Gokage with ease?it was so strong that, despite having been continuously overpowered by him before, they completely lost hope in victory. I think adding the other Kages, especially the Hokage and Mū, would help fill the gap, but Madara has the Kyūbi in here, too.



> You're pitting him against _21_ other Kage-level shinobi, who collaboratively >>>>>>>>>> Hashirama. Madara is absolutely _stomped_.



I don't believe they're stronger than Hashirama, and I'm fairly sure he could sweep the majority of them out with one single attack. How would any of them deal with shin sūsenju? They aren't going to dodge or block it, and only two of them have attacks which could _possibly_ get past Hashirama's ridiculous defensive capabilities. 



> If Madara has the Kyuubi here, then the Hokage can create clones to make a barrier seal to hold it down, like they did with the Juubi. Then Hiruzen and Minato can seal it inside themselves.[/indent][/justify]



I don't think binding the Kyūbi would be as easy a matter as binding the Jūbi was. For starters, there's only three Hokages to form the shisekiyōjin, which isn't enough. Even assuming a clone could work as a replacement, the Kyūbi is more than capable of obliterating anybody who walks inside because Hashirama isn't there to pin him down with senpō: myōjinmon. If Minato and Sarutobi waltzed in to try and seal it, the Kyūbi or Madara would rip them into pieces.


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## RBL (Jun 15, 2014)

i would even dare to say that tobirama and minato could handle him.

even minato alone would give madara a decent fight himself.

since madara is only having ems and posses no kyuubi with him.


without kyuubi i don't see madara winning tbh,


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 15, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Perfect susano'o let Madara one shot the collective Gokage with ease—it was so strong that, despite having been continuously overpowered by him before, they completely lost hope in victory. I think adding the other Kages, especially the Hokage and Mū, would help fill the gap, but Madara has the Kyūbi in here, too.



Those were only _five_ Kage, though, furthermore they were all low on chakra and in no condition to fight for any extensive period of time. Perfect Susano'o was the only thing EMS Madara would have that could contend with five Kage at once, but _twenty-one_ of them is a different matter entirely. The Kyuubi, as threatening as it is, is not something that they have no answer to either.



> I don't believe they're stronger than Hashirama, and I'm fairly sure he could sweep the majority of them out with one single attack. How would any of them deal with shin sūsenju? They aren't going to dodge or block it, and only two of them have attacks which could _possibly_ get past Hashirama's ridiculous defensive capabilities.



A few chakra-pumped jintons would destroy significant parts of it, while Minato and Tobirama can warp themselves and allies out of harm's way. Onoki's ability to slow it down with the Ultra-Weight technique, or alternatively nerf the power of it's strikes with the Ultra-Light-Weight technique, would provide incredibly useful as well. In unison with the various assortment of options that the other Kage possess - elemental blasts, sand waves, large explosives, Iron Sand etc. the other Kage's offence and defence respectively is incredibly versatile and capable of dismantling anything Hashirama has.



> I don't think binding the Kyūbi would be as easy a matter as binding the Jūbi was. For starters, there's only three Hokages to form the shisekiyōjin, which isn't enough. Even assuming a clone could work as a replacement, the Kyūbi is more than capable of obliterating anybody who walks inside because Hashirama isn't there to pin him down with senpō: myōjinmon. If Minato and Sarutobi waltzed in to try and seal it, the Kyūbi or Madara would rip them into pieces.



It may not have been enough for the Juubi, but the Juubi is significantly stronger than the Kyuubi. Kushina was capable of restraining it by herself with chakra chains, and I would imagine that three Hokage's barrier would at least be capable of doing the same thing. I should add, Minato or Tobirama could use KB to place seals all around the barrier in various locations so that should the Kyuubi try to bijuu-bomb them, it can be warped away before it can reach  them and detonate. They can also make openings in the barrier so that the Kage themselves don't necessarily need to enter the vicinity of the barrier, but that their own ranged jutsu can. Granted Minato and Hiruzen would need to actually get close to soul rip the Kyuubi, but even if it does end up stabbing them with it's claws or hitting them in some way, that should probably be enough, for Minato at least, to grab a hold of it with the DRS. 

*Edit:* Hussain also brings up the good point that Minato can effectively break Madara's ability to summon the Kyuubi - something he's ICly aware that he can do.​​


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2014)

Madara get's all of their Ds in his @$$.

He needed his PS just to deal with 5, and he lost half of his body against them, he was just lucky because he is
an edo, otherwise he wouldn't have won against the current 5 kages. 

All of his jutsus are completely useless here.

Any TBB from Kurama will get redirected to his face, or the contract between them will be sealed.

a frog song as well will fodderize him immediately. 

At most I'll give him 2-3 minuets against them, and then he will get raped. Extremely low difficult.

The guy couldn't even deal with Lee's kick and he got fodderized directly, he would have been dead as well had he not been an Edo.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jun 15, 2014)

Brandon Lee said:


> i would even dare to say that tobirama and minato could handle him.
> 
> *even minato alone would give madara a decent fight himself*.
> 
> ...



LoL yeah right....

Madara goes into Susanoo what can Minato do then.........?


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> LoL yeah right....
> 
> Madara goes into Susanoo what can Minato do then.........?



Summon PA & MA, uses their sound jutsus, Susanoo vanishes.  

Or, touch the susanoo, use FTG, send it elsewhere. Madara now is defenceless. 

Or, touch Madara before hand, Madara uses his Susanoo, Minato lol teleport inside.

Or uses his S/T barrier to redirect PS's attacks against him.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 15, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> LoL yeah right....
> 
> Madara goes into Susanoo what can Minato do then.........?



If he was smart, he could place hiraishin seals on Perfect Susano'o, then when it swings it's sword at him he could try to warp the sword so that it hits itself. 

Other than that, he can't do anything other than run away and dodge. Then again, OP said Minato could give EMS Madara a run for his money, not defeat him.​​


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2014)

@Godaime Tsunade

The Hokages don't need to work together for the barrier around Kurama, Minato was going to do that by himself.  

if you reread the chapters after he teleported Kurama he said he would put a barrier, but Kushina just did that
before him. Kurama is nothing compare to the Juubi, and he even admitted that. U_U


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## ARGUS (Jun 15, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> ..VOTE Madara didn't have
> 
> 
> Hashirama's DNA - no mokuton
> ...



He doesnt need the aforementioned abilities to beat these guys


Godaime Tsunade said:


> All he had was his EMS, and even then he needed the Kyuubi on top of that to equal Hashirama in power.


Hashirama was the God of Shinobi for no reason,,,,,dont underestimate both of them


Godaime Tsunade said:


> You're pitting him against _21_ other Kage-level shinobi, who collaboratively >>>>>>>>>> Hashirama. Madara is absolutely _stomped_.


None of these 21 kage levels have anything on PS+Kyuubi or SS,,,, 
No,, madara is not getting stomped at all,,,,,


Godaime Tsunade said:


> If Madara has the Kyuubi here, then the Hokage can create clones to make a barrier seal to hold it down, like they did with the Juubi. Then Hiruzen and Minato can seal it inside themselves.


​​Clones from the hokage are utmost fodder since they are bisected by PS slashes,, or nuked off  the planet by kyuubi,,,,
they are not holding down kurama since none of them can control it,, nor restrain it especially when its armored with PS,,,,,,
PS kyuubi is far too much for them,,,, as the PS infused TBB give Madara a comfortable win


Godaime Tsunade said:


> If he was smart, he could place hiraishin seals on Perfect Susano'o, then when it swings it's sword at him he could try to warp the sword so that it hits itself. .​​


Minato/Tobirama are not getting anywhere near PS+Kyuubi without getting bisected,,,,, let alone place seals on it,,,,,,the AOE is far too large for FTG and with the sheer firepower and durability,, theres nothing the kages can do


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## Hasan (Jun 15, 2014)

By _all shown_, you mean those who – to whatever degree – have displayed their fighting capabilities? Since battledome primarily relies on feats, I imagine those who only made a cameo like Nidaime Raikage or Shodai Tsuchikage are excluded? I don't see their usefulness, if we have nothing to rely on. . .


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2014)

Hasan said:


> By _all shown_, you mean those who ? to whatever degree ? have displayed their fighting capabilities? Since battledome primarily relies on feats, I imagine those who only made a cameo like Nidaime Raikage or Shodai Tsuchikage are excluded?



I was thinking the same things. @>@
7 out of the Kages we know nothing about them, not even their names. 

most have only 2 chapters two show some of their abilities.

*********

What stops Yagura from using his Mirror (with his Bijuu and/or Tsunade) to bring out PS
just for the 2 PS to console each other, and then Madara get lolfodderstomped?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2014)

I think Madara wins. He's shown decent base abilities, on top of that he's also shown one of thee best Susanoo feats _and_ he's got 100% Kurama ITT.

We've got to consider things like Kurama's speed to truly make a good judgement. I.E. a Susanoo-Kurama would be able to dodge a lot of things.

On top of that Madara could simply let Kurama loose and destroy Kage who're focusing on Kurama.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> ..VOTE Madara didn't have
> 
> 
> Hashirama's DNA - no mokuton
> ...



He did have Kurama, EMS and his base abilities. That counts for a lot.



> You're pitting him against _21_ other Kage-level shinobi, who collaboratively >>>>>>>>>> Hashirama. Madara is absolutely _stomped_.



You'd have a hard time to say those shinobi are collaboratively>>>Hashirama.
As Madara said several times, Hashirama's powers are on a league of their own. The Kage after Hashirama couldn't simply compare. There's a reason why Hashirama is the only Kage whose power was deemed to be mythical. He was that powerful.

We've even seen some of what the man can do, so it isn't a stretch to assume that these Kage, collectively, are still weaker than Hashirama.



> If Madara has the Kyuubi here, then the Hokage can create clones to make a barrier seal to hold it down, like they did with the Juubi. Then Hiruzen and Minato can seal it inside themselves.[/indent][/justify]



The barrier seal wouldn't work as you'll need 4 powerful Hokage, Tsunade won't cut it.
On top of that Madara can easily go through all these Kage to break the seal, in case they some how set it up. Hashirama is literally the only Kage who can so much as challenge Madara.

You'll find that even with the Juubi, Hashirama still played a significant role.
If Minato and Hiruzen eliminate Kurama, that leaves a bunch of other Kage who cannot take Madara.

In fact it is doubtful Hiruzen will be able to take half of Kurama within himself. 


----

A good strategy would be to use Shikifuujin on Madara, but the Kage will need to decide that they cannot beat Madara through other means.


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2014)

> =Munboy Dracule O'Brian;50952297]I think Madara wins. He's shown decent base abilities, on top of that he's also shown one of thee best Susanoo feats _and_ he's got 100% Kurama ITT.



SM MAdara showed that he can't dodge Gaara's attack, and edo Madara couldn't dodge lee's attack.
nor was he able to dodge Onoki's jinton.

Kurama is irrelevant, since he either be freed by contract seal, or all of his TBB get redirected via S/T barrier, or countered via Yagura's mirror. 


> We've got to consider things like Kurama's speed to truly make a good judgement. I.E. a Susanoo-Kurama would be able to dodge a lot of things.


Kurama will end up fighting for them against madara since he hate the latter and he will be freed. 



> On top of that Madara could simply let Kurama loose and destroy Kage who're focusing on Kurama.


No, he can't. 



> He did have Kurama, EMS and his base abilities. That counts for a lot.


Not when he won't keep Kurama to begin with. 



> You'd have a hard time to say those shinobi are collaboratively>>>Hashirama.
> As Madara said several times, Hashirama's powers are on a league of their own. The Kage after Hashirama couldn't simply compare. There's a reason why Hashirama is the only Kage whose power was deemed to be mythical. He was that powerful.


Hashirama lost against fodders in the war, let alone handling all the Kages. and no, there is no hard
time since it was clearly stated that one of them by himself is stronger than him.  

-- And there is a reason to why he was not  hailed as the strongest as well.
and there is a reason ti why he was killed by fodders in the war. 

and finally there is a reason to why Hashirama admitted inferiority to obito, while Minato stated he would beat/create and opening against him.


> We've even seen some of what the man can do, so it isn't a stretch to assume that these Kage, collectively, are still weaker than Hashirama.



lol, no. He gets fodderstomped low difficult at most. 


> The barrier seal wouldn't work as you'll need 4 powerful Hokage, Tsunade won't cut it.
> On top of that Madara can easily go through all these Kage to break the seal, in case they some how set it up. Hashirama is literally the only Kage who can so much as challenge Madara.



Tsunade shouldn't be any weaker than old Hiruzen + the Kages won't need a huge barrier like they did since Kurama is barely the size of the Juubi's fingers. Not to mention Minato can do it by himself as he stated.

- no he can't, Gaara by himself was able to paralyse him, he can do the same here, while the 3rd Raikage break his neck. 


> You'll find that even with the Juubi, Hashirama still played a significant role.
> If Minato and Hiruzen eliminate Kurama, that leaves a bunch of other Kage who cannot take Madara.



yes they can, madara only survived against the 5 kages because he is an edo.


> In fact it is doubtful Hiruzen will be able to take half of Kurama within himself.



He does not need to, as Kurama would be in their side after he get freed. 
----


> A good strategy would be to use Shikifuujin on Madara, but the Kage will need to decide that they cannot beat Madara through other means.



Except Yagura's Mirror will cancel madara's attack out with the same jutsus.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2014)

Madara would get owned here. 

Minato suggested he could create a barrier that would contain Kurama by himself, adding in 2 other Hokages (potentially other Kages able to also use Kekkai Techniques) would be more than enough to contain Kurama. From there Kurama can be sealed like the Hachibi, by Amber-Sealing Jar, or Minato can seal it through Shiki Fuujin and placing the other half into one of his allies via Hakke-Seal. Meanwhile P-Susano'o is strong, but you have x3 heavily defense oriented Kazekage (x5 if the pattern continues with the Nindaime and Shodaime being some type of Sand users) + Yagura for Bijuu protection + 2 FTG users (or at least their Bushin). Than for offense you have x2 Jinton users (possibly x3 if Shodai Tsuchikage is a Jinton users) + Yagura Bijuu Bomb + Joki Boi + Kurokaminari. Surely these Kages can make something happen here, and that's w/o even considering the unknown abilities of many of the Kages, and is also assuming Madaraw survives the opening of the match long enough to pull out his big guns, as he could easily be killed off buy 4 Raikage + 2 FTG users, before he even knew what hit him.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 15, 2014)

Yagura uses a charged BB and that combined with Jinton break PS


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## Veracity (Jun 15, 2014)

Start Madara inside KyubiSussano and he wins here, as the opposing team can literally only watch in awe as 10+ Bjuii shiruken capable of crossing oceans in the blink of an eye and capable of reducing mountains to rubble light the Kages ablaze.

Start Madara off without he Kyuubi summoned and without PS out , and he most likely gets killed before he wraps the Kyuubi in Sussano.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 15, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> He doesnt need the aforementioned abilities to beat these guys




He needs the aforementioned abilities to even have  shot at beating these guys.



> Hashirama was the God of Shinobi for no reason,,,,,dont underestimate both of them



Great. He still loses to twenty one Kage.



> None of these 21 kage levels have anything on PS+Kyuubi or SS,,,,
> No,, madara is not getting stomped at all,,,,,




 Hiraishin tags / Hiraishin barriers
 Chakra-pumped jintons
 Chakra pumped Ultra Light-Weight Technique
 Chakra pumped Ultra-Heavy Weight Technique
 Ultra Light Weight Technique + Sand  / Iron Sand / Gold Dust
 Contract Seal
 Hokage-style bijuu barrier
 Death Reaper Seal
 (Chakra pumped) Jōki Bōi
 (Chakra pumped) Water Mirror

To name a few.



> Clones from the hokage are utmost fodder since they are bisected by PS slashes,,



Those could be

a) Weakened by Onoki's Ultra-Lightweight Technique (possibly enhanced further by Tsunade chakra pumping it) making them largely ineffective
b) Warped away by Minato's Hiraishin barriers
c) Reflected by Yagura's Water Mirror Technique
d) Blasted by jinton
e) Slowed down by Onoki's Ultra-Heavy-Weight Technique allowing the others to dodge or be teleported to safety



> or nuked off  the planet by kyuubi,,,,



Providing the Kage stand idly and allow the Kyuubi to do so.



> they are not holding down kurama since none of them can control it,, nor restrain it especially when its armored with PS,,,,,,



They held down the Juubi, so I can say with confidence that they can hold down the Kyuubi. As others have said, Minato was quite sure he could erect a barrier capable of trapping the Kyuubi by himself. Kushina held it down alone. The Hokage together can hold it down together for sure. 



> Minato/Tobirama are not getting anywhere near PS+Kyuubi without getting bisected,,,,, let alone place seals on it



I don't think it's fast enough to do that. 



> the AOE is far too large for FTG



So they warp it before it hits them and creates an AoE, and teleport it to hit itself.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We've got to consider things like Kurama's speed to truly make a good judgement. I.E. a Susanoo-Kurama would be able to dodge a lot of things.



How? Surely Susano'o armour just makes it heavier and slower? It's not as though the Kyuubi possesses any impressive evasion feats either.



> On top of that Madara could simply let Kurama loose and destroy Kage who're focusing on Kurama.



In that case it would attack Madara as well, so I doubt he would attempt to do that. Also Madara needs the Kyuubi to even have a small chance at winning, on his own even a few Kage would be too much for him, never mind 21 of them.



> He did have Kurama, EMS and his base abilities. That counts for a lot.



It made him about equal to Hashirama, who I believe is still a lot weaker than 21 Kage.



> You'd have a hard time to say those shinobi are collaboratively>>>Hashirama. As Madara said several times, Hashirama's powers are on a league of their own. The Kage after Hashirama couldn't simply compare. There's a reason why Hashirama is the only Kage whose power was deemed to be mythical. He was that powerful.



Actually, the main source of that " mythical " hype came from a bad translation. I can't remember what the accurate translation was exactly, but it was something to do with people of the current day thinking Hashirama was greater than he actually was. That's not to say Hashirama isn't top-tier and > any of those Kage individually, but not when they all fight together.



> We've even seen some of what the man can do, so it isn't a stretch to assume that these Kage, collectively, are still weaker than Hashirama.



I disagree.




> The barrier seal wouldn't work as you'll need 4 powerful Hokage, Tsunade won't cut it.



Woah, shots fired.

Anyway, it took four Kage to hold the _Juubi_, the Kyuubi is significantly smaller and weaker. Minato or Kushina did or could have held it by themselves.



> On top of that Madara can easily go through all these Kage to break the seal, in case they some how set it up. Hashirama is literally the only Kage who can so much as challenge Madara.



No he can't. If Madara tries to attack the Kage holding the barrier then the other 18-19 Kage absolutely god-stomp him.



> You'll find that even with the Juubi, Hashirama still played a significant role. If Minato and Hiruzen eliminate Kurama, that leaves a bunch of other Kage who cannot take Madara.



Except that they can take on Madara, and destroy him. It took Madara with the Rinnegan, edo tensei regeneration, infinite chakra and mokuton just to take on five Kage, and even then he was defeated and needed to pull out Perfect Susano'o at the last moment. He has none of those things here and will need to rely on PS to have a chance at doing anything to these Kage, and even then they have counter-measures for that.



> In fact it is doubtful Hiruzen will be able to take half of Kurama within himself.



I could agree with this, but he will be able to seal at least some of the Kyuubi, leaving a small, significantly weaker Kyuubi on the battlefield that the others could probably restrain without much effort.



> A good strategy would be to use Shikifuujin on Madara, but the Kage will need to decide that they cannot beat Madara through other means.



Again I disagree as I think they have a plethora of other options to defeat him. ​​


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## LeBoyka (Jun 15, 2014)

*Madara loses hard* 

*_3rd Raikage, Tobirama, Minato, and Ei can blitz him before PS comes out. (Also the 3rd Raikage can tank anything Madara would dish out.)_

**Onnoki and Mu can one shot, and without the Rinnegan Madara cannot absorb the attack. *

*_Minato and Tobirama can teleport Susanoo away._

*Minato has boss Summons; Hiruzen has a good Summon. This just increases the numbers stacked against Madara. 

*_Minato has Contract Seal to end Madara's control of the Kyubbi_

*Garaa and his father, along with Mei and other Kages can also overwhelm from long range. 

*_Minato can use S/T Barrier to warp Bijuu Bomb from Kyubbi (Kinda negates Kyubbi factor). _

*Tsunade heals all with Katsuyu. 

I honestly cannot see Madara beating ****21 KAGE LEVEL**** opponents.


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## trance (Jun 15, 2014)

Madara has Kurama? 

He stomps. Hard. It took Shinsusenjuu, Hashirama's _most powerful jutsu_, to break through his Perfect Susanoo and it withstood an island busting bijudama with ease. None of the Kage here have anywhere close to that level of firepower. Not to mention, Madara has ridiculously more chakra than anyone else here and can choose between Susanoo sword slashes, spammable bijudamas or both for a constant offense that will, inevitably, overwhelm and slaughter his adversaries.



LeBoyka said:


> _(Also the 3rd Raikage can tank anything Madara would dish out.)_



Uhhhh, one casual sword slash from his Perfect Susanoo hacked apart a mountain range. Raikagenaut gets obliterated.


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## ARGUS (Jun 16, 2014)

I still failed to see what these 21 kage level nins have on PS+Kyuubi,,,, which tanks everything their arsenal and proceeds  to nuke them off the planet


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 16, 2014)

Madara brings out PS and slaughters them. 
I don't think anyone would be arrogant in this situation (even Madara).

Their barriers are going to be useless against continuous slashes from PS, and there's nothing in their arsenal that would slightly dent the thing.


EDIT: I hope 100% Kyuubi isn't allowed. Haven't included that in my assessment...


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## ARGUS (Jun 16, 2014)

^^^^^^^100% kyuubi is allowed,,,,,ofcourse,,,, hence why i stated VOTE rather than simply EMS
VOTE Madara afterall did have  it,, against Hashirama


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 16, 2014)

@ARGUS,,,dude why are you using commas,,,like that,,,?


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## ARGUS (Jun 16, 2014)

Necessary Evil said:


> @ARGUS,,,dude why are you using commas,,,like that,,,?


They are like meant for a short pause 
its jus how a type lel,,,,,,see,,,,,,it somewhat works,,,,,


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## Magicbullet (Jun 16, 2014)

PS contained Kyuubi can lay down apocalyptic levels of destruction at a moment's notice and the _vast _majority of his opponents will be utterly powerless against him. The odds are still in his favor even in this situation.

Ironically the single biggest disadvantage he has is the tendency to make a spectacle of his fights. (since he's IC)


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 16, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> They are like meant for a short pause
> its jus how a type lel,,,,,,see,,,,,,it somewhat works,,,,,



Yeah, you only need one comma to indicate a break in your sentence. If you're making a lengthier pause you use " ... " which is grammatically accurate while " ,,, " isn't. 

Ich Lieben Mien Grammar.​​


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## Lawrence777 (Jun 16, 2014)

I think Madara wins.
Just 1 swing caused this much damage [1]
Madara's PS has four arms [2] .

I don't think they stand any chance if Madara starts swinging those swords as fast and frequently as he is capable of[3] .

tbh, I don't see him losing even if he was arrogant and swung only 1 sword at a time deliberately and dramatically like he did against the gokage.


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## ARGUS (Jun 16, 2014)

Its funny how mixed some of the reviews are,, 
some ppl believe that Minato/Tobirama alone can beat VOTE madara,,,, 
and others believe that PS alone wrecks the 21 kages here  lell


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## LeBoyka (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> None of the Kage here have anywhere close to that level of firepower.



Yes, because we all forgot how Minato basically used S/T Barrier on a _Ten Tails Bijuu Bomb_. If he redirects Madara's own attacks at him it's GG. PS and Kurama won't be enough to kill 21 Kage level opponents; Mu and Onnoki alone can break through PS with their own hax jutsu (if they have an opening). Tobirama and Minato were able to surpise Juubito - granted Juubito could tank anything they threw at him. (If they "surprise" Madara by marking him or his Susanoo, it will get warped away or it will be open to ST Barrier counter strike.). 

Seriously, Madara is a boss but he is not killing all 21 Kages without going down himself. He isn't an Edo in this thread and he doesn't have the Rinnegan to absorb powerful jutsu.


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## Hasan (Jun 17, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Those were only _five_ Kage, though, furthermore *they were all low on chakra and in no condition to fight for any extensive period of time*. Perfect Susano'o was the only thing EMS Madara would have that could contend with five Kage at once, but _twenty-one_ of them is a different matter entirely. The Kyuubi, as threatening as it is, is not something that they have no answer to either.



The Perfect Susanō was just his way of showing that the Gokage never stood a chance, making an arguments such as the bolded, pointless. Your choice of words imply he _needed_ it, which is incorrect.



> A few chakra-pumped jintons would destroy significant parts of it, while Minato and Tobirama can warp themselves and allies out of harm's way. Onoki's ability to slow it down with the Ultra-Weight technique, or alternatively nerf the power of it's strikes with the Ultra-Light-Weight technique, would provide incredibly useful as well. In unison with the various assortment of options that the other Kage possess - elemental blasts, sand waves, large explosives, Iron Sand etc. the other Kage's offence and defence respectively is incredibly versatile and capable of dismantling anything Hashirama has.



A one-sided analysis that assumes Hashirama will sit idly, while Ōnoki and Mū manages not just one, but several Jinton shots that will destroy the Shinsūsenju significantly — and powered up on top of that. _Does this make any sense at all_? 

_Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin_ can disorient the group long enough for Hashirama to proceed with his next move. . . and I, for one, do not believe that he will display the generosity Madara did. The Kage will last 5 minutes, if they are lucky. The Kage aside from Ōnoki, Mū, Gaara and his father are all close quarter fighters – extremely difficult for them to deal with map-altering techniques that Hashirama has.

Hashirama (and Madara) are simply out of everyone's league, unless grandpa Sarutobi snatches his position back.



> It may not have been enough for the Juubi, but the Juubi is significantly stronger than the Kyuubi. Kushina was capable of restraining it by herself with chakra chains, and I would imagine that three Hokage's barrier would at least be capable of doing the same thing. I should add, Minato or Tobirama could use KB to place seals all around the barrier in various locations so that should the Kyuubi try to bijuu-bomb them, it can be warped away before it can reach  them and detonate. They can also make openings in the barrier so that the Kage themselves don't necessarily need to enter the vicinity of the barrier, but that their own ranged jutsu can. Granted Minato and Hiruzen would need to actually get close to soul rip the Kyuubi, but even if it does end up stabbing them with it's claws or hitting them in some way, that should probably be enough, for Minato at least, to grab a hold of it with the DRS.



_Shisekyōjin ("*Four* Red Suns Battle Encampment")_ require all _four_ of them to construct it. With Hashirama absent, the remaining three are not performing it – weaker or not. _Shiki Fūjin_ is restricted, or RDS stands for something I am not aware of.




Hussain said:


> Madara get's all of their Ds in his @$$.
> 
> He needed his PS just to deal with 5, and he lost half of his body against them, he was just lucky because he is
> an edo, otherwise he wouldn't have won against the current 5 kages.



Read above. . . and perhaps the manga as well. 



> Any TBB from Kurama will get redirected to his face



I don't believe warping several dozen bijūdama fired _non-linearly_ is as easy as you think it is. There is also this, by the way.



> or the contract between them will be sealed.



That is only if you are able to make reasonable scenarios that Minato lands in close vicinity to, let alone touch Madara. Furthermore you also have to account for the Kyūbi rampaging or Madara regaining control of it _again_ (A big "if" he loses control to begin with). 

_Keiyaku Fūin_ may not be a good idea, as it initially appears to be.



> The guy couldn't even deal with Lee's kick and he got fodderized directly, he would have been dead as well had he not been an Edo.



Agreed. . . Lee-kun > Hiraishin no Jutsu. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> If he was smart, he could place hiraishin seals on Perfect Susano'o, then when it swings it's sword at him he could try to warp the sword so that it hits itself.
> 
> Other than that, he can't do anything other than run away and dodge. Then again, OP said Minato could give EMS Madara a run for his money, not defeat him.



The barrier seems to have utility only against projectiles, and does not work like portals from Portal. Instead, it works like _Kuchiyose no Jutsu_, meaning the target has to be whole when it enters the timespace. Since, it is simple displacement from a point in space to another; the swing or any motion will be lost upon entering the timespace, retaining only the state at the particular instance it was warped. Hence, the bijūdama was just dropped in the ocean. Otherwise, it would retained its motion in the original direction, if you assume that a sword swing can be redirected in the manner you describe.



Hussain said:


> @Godaime Tsunade
> 
> The Hokages don't need to work together for the barrier around Kurama, Minato was going to do that by himself.
> 
> ...



He does not say _he_ has to setup a barrier. It's more along the lines of _"we have to setup a barrier"_ which they do, seeing how Minato had no objection to Kushina setting it up.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Those could be
> 
> a) Weakened by Onoki's Ultra-Lightweight Technique (possibly enhanced further by Tsunade chakra pumping it) making them largely ineffective
> b) Warped away by Minato's Hiraishin barriers
> ...



a) How do you even alter the weight of sword _slashes/swings_?

b) Jikūkan Kekkai is only usable against bijūdama, which seems to have no effect on Perfect Susanō.

c) Kyūbi – in its complete form – is around the size of Perfect Susanō's head. Yagura's technique is not reflecting anything Perfect Susanō – powered up or not.

d) No.

e) Read (a).

This is not Looney Tunes. 



> Providing the Kage stand idly and allow the Kyuubi to do so.



Which is _wii-erd_ – your first response to Atlantic Storm reflects Hashirama sitting idly while Mū and Ōnoki shower Jinton blasts while being powered up. . .

_*Feat-wise*_, the only Kage capable of dealing with bijūdama are Tobirama and Minato – both together are able to deal with three at most (I gather, he can't use markings due his one arm; with both arms he could take two, as Tobirama asked).



> They held down the Juubi, so I can say with confidence that they can hold down the Kyuubi. As others have said, Minato was quite sure he could erect a barrier capable of trapping the Kyuubi by himself. Kushina held it down alone. The Hokage together can hold it down together for sure.



With Hashirama present and aided by his Senpō: Myōjinmon. Shisekyōjin requires a fourth person, and with Hashirama absent, they are not performing it – they are not holding down the Kyūbi.



> Actually, the main source of that " mythical " hype came from a bad translation. I can't remember what the accurate translation was exactly, but it was something to do with people of the current day thinking Hashirama was greater than he actually was. That's not to say Hashirama isn't top-tier and > any of those Kage individually, but not when they all fight together.



All translations say the same thing; Hashirama's power was so immense that people discarded it as a myth like the Sennin. Here's takL's translation, if you prefer:



takL said:


> "there isnt a shinobi like(=as good as) the first hokage, hashirama senju anymore ...
> everyone says so"
> "everyone who hears of his might(/ability/magnitude) goes
> 'thats a fairy tale same as rikudo sage.' "





> Except that they can take on Madara, and destroy him. It took Madara with the Rinnegan, edo tensei regeneration, infinite chakra and mokuton just to take on five Kage, and even then he was defeated and needed to pull out Perfect Susano'o at the last moment. He has none of those things here and will need to rely on PS to have a chance at doing anything to these Kage, and even then they have counter-measures for that.



Except Madara was obviously playing around; the Gokage got stomped, the second he got serious. . . and it did not require Perfect Susanō.


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## Lurko (Jun 17, 2014)

Minato can use the Shingami while others distract.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Edo Madara is far beyond Gokage.
I don't know how anyone can make the argument that their combined force "pressured" him at all. 

He toyed around the whole time, and the sight of PS was enough to discourage them.
The rest of these Kage will be in the same position before PS.


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## Zenith (Jun 17, 2014)

I believe Madara is more than capable of defeating the kage

All of them

Collectively 


Numbers don't seem to be a problem for him, due to the broken scale of his attacks ( forest wide Katon? Perfect Susano'o? you feel me? ), and neither is stamina since he basically fought Hashirama with nothing but nukes for an extended period of time( was it a day? I can't remember )



Brandon Lee said:


> i would even dare to say that tobirama and minato could handle him.



why?

because Flying Thunder God? Madara knows the jutsu through and through, and the mindset of the users: "at the first opening, we strike in his blindspot", so he's not going to be taken off guard, especially with his reflexes and tools like the fan and partial Susano'o



> even minato alone would give madara a decent fight himself


nah, with dicking around Madara, it goes from a scale to probably to unlikely. I am talking chances of a good fight here, not even winning

Madara in a hurry to complete Mugen Tsukuyomi? Minato's blood is smeared like paint across the landscape while being reprimanded for not having Hashirama's beautiful long silky hair



> since madara is *only* having ems and posses no kyuubi with him.


if you're talking Madara vs Minato only, you're mistaken

if you're talking Madara vs all kage bar Hashirama, then you might be onto something 

though, I can totally see a Perfect Susano'o spamfest still being enough, considering the sheer AoE and execution speed(  )


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## Manusia (Jun 17, 2014)

Oh he deleted my message. Hmmm.


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## Krippy (Jun 17, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> *Madara loses hard*



If this was in the manga, sure. But this is the battledome.



> *_3rd Raikage, Tobirama, Minato, and Ei can blitz him before PS comes out. (Also the 3rd Raikage can tank anything Madara would dish out.)_



Lolnope. Madara is going straight to Susano'o against such numbers. Nobody here is blitzing the sharingan before it can activate Susano'o (which activated before Kirin hit).



> **Onnoki and Mu can one shot, and without the Rinnegan Madara cannot absorb the attack. *



Lelnope. Madara kills them before they can do any meaningful damage to his PS. He owned them both in the past without even using PS.



> *_Minato and Tobirama can teleport Susanoo away._



Nah. Even if they could get close enough to pull that off, he would just reform it.



> *Minato has boss Summons; Hiruzen has a good Summon. This just increases the numbers stacked against Madara.



Which all get one-shotted along with most of the kage.



> *_Minato has Contract Seal to end Madara's control of the Kyubbi_



He's not gonna be able to touch him.



> *Garaa and his father, along with Mei and other Kages can also overwhelm from long range.



No, they can't. Their collective firepower is far below that of Shinsuusenju.



> *_Minato can use S/T Barrier to warp Bijuu Bomb from Kyubbi (Kinda negates Kyubbi factor). _



He's not gonna be able to keep it up for long.



> *Tsunade heals all with Katsuyu.



She can't heal them if they're dead.



> I honestly cannot see Madara beating ****21 KAGE LEVEL**** opponents.



With his feats and their lack thereof, its perfectly reasonable.


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## Legend777 (Jun 17, 2014)

Krippy said:


> If this was in the manga, sure.



Your post should' ve ended after this.


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## ARGUS (Jun 17, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> Yes, because we all forgot how Minato basically used S/T Barrier on a _Ten Tails Bijuu Bomb_. If he redirects Madara's own attacks at him it's GG


Unlike TBB, a  PS slash is not a thrown projectile, furthermore susanoo can withstand much much more energy than its output,,, meaning  one PS Slash is not even scratching PS


LeBoyka said:


> PS and Kurama won't be enough to kill 21 Kage level opponents; Mu and Onnoki alone can break through PS with their own hax jutsu (if they have an opening).


Muu and Onoki lost to EMS madara who toyed with them,,,,furthermore jinton has a limit to atomise things, as it cant atomise objects that are far too durable, such as the Juubi and PS,,(which was why onoki stopped his jinton once PS came out)


LeBoyka said:


> Tobirama and Minato were able to surpise Juubito - granted Juubito could tank anything they threw at him. (If they "surprise" Madara by marking him or his Susanoo, it will get warped away or it will be open to ST Barrier counter strike.).


Tobirama and Minato cant get anyway near PS+Kyuubi without getting shred to pieces and nuked off the planet,,,
--Tobirama marked Juubito at the cost of half of his body, he doesnt have the luxury here to eradicate his entire body,,,,


LeBoyka said:


> Seriously, Madara is a boss but he is not killing all 21 Kages without going down himself. He isn't an Edo in this thread and he doesn't have the Rinnegan to absorb powerful jutsu.


He doesnt need the rinnegans preta,, seeing how his PS is durable enough to tank all their hits and when it armors the kyuuubi,, the kage are annihilated by over 10 PS-infused TBB,,,,its AOE is too large for them to evade,,, and has a DC far too immense for them to counter, 
-based on feats the chances of the kage winning are quite minimal


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## Fiiction (Jun 17, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Summon PA & MA, uses their sound jutsus, Susanoo vanishes.
> 
> Or, touch the susanoo, use FTG, send it elsewhere. Madara now is defenceless.
> 
> ...



Genjutsu GG. Despite Minato thinking That obito was Madara, he was still foolish enough to make face contact with him.

How does Minato tag pure chakra? Unless you have a scan of him tagging a kurama avatar or some sort, it's just fanfic.

How does Minato redirect PS shockwaves back? Doesn't he need prep for that?


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## ARGUS (Jun 18, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Summon PA & MA, uses their sound jutsus, Susanoo vanishes.


it is not IC for Minato to summon Ma&Pa neither has he ever done so in a battle,, moreoveer before he gets to use these sound jutsus he along with the rest of the kages are gettiing nuked off the planet


Hussain said:


> Or, touch the susanoo, use FTG, send it elsewhere. Madara now is defenceless.


Again, Not happening, before he gets to even come close  to its range, he is getting bisected


Hussain said:


> Or, touch Madara before hand, Madara uses his Susanoo, Minato lol teleport inside.


Madara is fighting 21 kages here, including Tobirama who he knows, 
he is never fighting them without susanooo


Hussain said:


> Or uses his S/T barrier to redirect PS's attacks against him.


Not a thrown projectile to use S/T barrer against, furthermore susanoo output is much much lower than what it can withstand, so a slash is not even scratching his PS


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 18, 2014)

Hasan said:


> The Perfect Susanō was just his way of showing that the Gokage never stood a chance, making an arguments such as the bolded, pointless. Your choice of words imply he _needed_ it, which is incorrect.



What you say holds some truth, but Madara ultimately did need Perfect Susano'o because otherwise the Gokage's combined final assault would have sealed him. 



> A one-sided analysis that assumes Hashirama will sit idly, while Ōnoki and Mū manages not just one, but several Jinton shots that will destroy the Shinsūsenju significantly — and powered up on top of that. _Does this make any sense at all_?



Except that there are about 18 other Kage on the battlefield, so nothing Hashirama does will have any impact on what Onoki/Muu are doing.



> _Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin_ can disorient the group long enough for Hashirama to proceed with his next move. . . and I, for one, do not believe that he will display the generosity Madara did. The Kage will last 5 minutes, if they are lucky.



Jinton can and canonly _has_ dealt with Kajukai Kōrin as well. Tsunade chakra pumping Muu requires little effort on her part and can allow the jinton to reach about 100 times+ it's usual size, meaning they can still take out significant parts of the Shinjusenjuu statue while Onoki dismantles whatever mokuton Hashirama uses. Also, what generosity did Madara show in relation to the Kajukai Kōrin?



> The Kage aside from Ōnoki, Mū, Gaara and his father are all close quarter fighters – extremely difficult for them to deal with map-altering techniques that Hashirama has.



Minato and Tobirama would be useful as well, able to place hiraishin seals on the statue, and when it throws strikes Minato can warp it's fists through a barrier forcing it to strike itself. Iron Sand (Sandaime Kazekage) and Gold Dust (Yondaime Kazekage) in tandem with Gaara's sand would provide effective shields from the statue's strikes too, if not effective ways of damaging and/or immobilising the statue as well. The Mizukage all possess ranged ninjutsu, as does Hiruzen - he also has a staff strong to break through mokuton. Yagura can wilfully transform into the Sanbi and launch a bijuu blast if he so wishes, significantly damaging the statue even if it doesn't destroy it (he was stated to have the same control over his bijuu that KB did). I imagine Katsuyu would serve some use for supportive purposes as well. 



> Hashirama (and Madara) are simply out of everyone's league, unless grandpa Sarutobi snatches his position back.



Fingers crossed for Saru 



> _Shisekyōjin ("*Four* Red Suns Battle Encampment")_ require all _four_ of them to construct it. With Hashirama absent, the remaining three are not performing it – weaker or not. _Shiki Fūjin_ is restricted, or RDS stands for something I am not aware of.



So then they simply use Kage Bunshin - which were strong enough to hold the barrier. The Kyuubi is significantly weaker and smaller than the Juubi too, it won't be nearly as difficult to do.



> The barrier seems to have utility only against projectiles, and does not work like portals from Portal. Instead, it works like _Kuchiyose no Jutsu_, meaning the target has to be whole when it enters the timespace. Since, it is simple displacement from a point in space to another; the swing or any motion will be lost upon entering the timespace, retaining only the state at the particular instance it was warped. Hence, the bijūdama was just dropped in the ocean. Otherwise, it would retained its motion in the original direction, if you assume that a sword swing can be redirected in the manner you describe.



Fair enough, then.



> He does not say _he_ has to setup a barrier. It's more along the lines of _"we have to setup a barrier"_ which they do, seeing how Minato had no objection to Kushina setting it up.



True, he doesn't specifically say that he plans to put up a barrier, but it is also clear that he doesn't expect Kushina to do it, since she's so weak. We can tell by his shocked reaction when she does put one up that he clearly did not expect anything from her in that situation. I don't believe he would have brought something like that up if he didn't feel that he had the power to do so. Furthermore, if he can erect a barrier big enough to keep the Juubi in place with three others, it is plausible he could do something similar with a much smaller, weaker bijuu on his own.



> a) How do you even alter the weight of sword _slashes/swings_?



By flying on top of the sword, and tapping it. For Onoki it is really that simple.



> b) Jikūkan Kekkai is only usable against bijūdama, which seems to have no effect on Perfect Susanō.



Alright.



> c) Kyūbi – in its complete form – is around the size of Perfect Susanō's head. Yagura's technique is not reflecting anything Perfect Susanō – powered up or not.



That makes no sense. If Tsunade chakra pumps him then his mirror becomes significantly larger in size, meaning he will be able to replicate whatever attacks are being thrown, even ones as large as the Kyuubi/PS. 



> d) No.



Seemed fairly obvious to me that Onoki was out of chakra, since he had said that the assault he used prior in unison with Tsunade would be his _last attack_.



> Which is _wii-erd_ – your first response to Atlantic Storm reflects Hashirama sitting idly while Mū and Ōnoki shower Jinton blasts while being powered up. . .



It doesn't, I just didn't see the merit in mentioning that in my argument as I feel it is sort of obvious that Hashirama cannot stand up to about 18 other Kage with just his mokuton. He won't stand idly, but whatever he does will be rendered ineffective against so many Kages at once. 



> _*Feat-wise*_, the only Kage capable of dealing with bijūdama are Tobirama and Minato – both together are able to deal with three at most (I gather, he can't use markings due his one arm; with both arms he could take two, as Tobirama asked).



Why is that such a bad thing? Being able to warp three is quite significant. There's a chance big enough jintons could destroy them too, since it was capable of erasing Madara's Susano'o chakra.



> With Hashirama present and aided by his Senpō: Myōjinmon. Shisekyōjin requires a fourth person, and with Hashirama absent, they are not performing it – they are not holding down the Kyūbi.



Again, the Juubi is significantly larger and more powerful. That is why Hashirama's Myōjinmon was needed. That isn't to say it wouldn't be useful in restraining the Kyuubi, but it isn't necessary.



> All translations say the same thing; Hashirama's power was so immense that people discarded it as a myth like the Sennin. Here's takL's translation, if you prefer:



Even so, I do not for a second believe Hashirama > all 21 past Kage. That seems completely ridiculous to me.



> Except Madara was obviously playing around; the Gokage got stomped, the second he got serious. . . and it did not require Perfect Susanō.



What does this prove? Madara was using all of the things he doesn't have in this match to play around them. Without Hashirama's DNA, edo tensei etc. he wouldn't have been able to play around with them at all. Of course, even with all of those things the Gokage could still form a strategy to force him into a corner and _push him into using Perfect Susano'o_. I should add, in the Viz translation of _that_ scan, Madara claims that he _will_ use Perfect Susano'o again, he says:  _" Now... The perfect Susano'o... Everyone who sees it dies... Or so they say. I'm almost embarassed to have to do this again... I already used it once, but..."_ Tsunade's expression in that panel therefore makes more sense, as does the Five Kage's conditions in the aftermath.​​


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2014)

> > =Hasan;50969772]
> > Read above. . . and perhaps the manga as well.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sans (Jun 20, 2014)

Brandon Lee said:


> i would even dare to say that tobirama and minato could handle him.
> 
> even minato alone would give madara a decent fight himself.
> 
> ...



I dare say you are incorrect.


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> I dare say you are incorrect.



so Minato and Tobirama can troll JJ obito, but for God knows reason they can't do the same with
that overrated @$$ madara? 

Great.


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## Hasan (Jun 23, 2014)

Ah, responses!  Sorry, sorry! I did not notice that. . . 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Except that there are about 18 other Kage on the battlefield, so nothing Hashirama does will have any impact on what Onoki/Muu are doing.



I counted 14 in total ? only those who have displayed their abilities to some extent. I understand that Battledome is not too rigid to disallow portrayal completely, but we literally have zero idea of some of them, so we will have to restrict them to meat-shield or cheer-leading duties if they are present.



> Jinton can and canonly _has_ dealt with Kajukai Kōrin as well.



. . . but Ōnoki did not immediately destroy the flower; the Kage were overwhelmed and even fell to it, for a brief duration. Madara caught them off-guard with Susanō. . . reasonable to assume that Hashirama, too, can follow-up with his techniques - troubling them even further.



> Tsunade chakra pumping Muu requires little effort on her part and can allow the jinton to reach about 100 times+ it's usual size, meaning they can still take out significant parts of the Shinjusenjuu statue while Onoki dismantles whatever mokuton Hashirama uses.



100x sounds exaggerated.



> Also, what generosity did Madara show in relation to the Kajukai Kōrin?



I would like to think if he attempted to slice them instead of pushing, it would have fatally wounded, if not kill them.



> So then they simply use Kage Bunshin - which were strong enough to hold the barrier. The Kyuubi is significantly weaker and smaller than the Juubi too, it won't be nearly as difficult to do.



That. . . did not cross my mind, but I suppose it could work i.e. a Kage Bunshin as a replacement for Hashirama, but eh, four Kage Bunshin holding down the barrier. . .?



> True, he doesn't specifically say that he plans to put up a barrier, but it is also clear that he doesn't expect Kushina to do it, since she's so weak. We can tell by his shocked reaction when she does put one up that he clearly did not expect anything from her in that situation. I don't believe he would have brought something like that up if he didn't feel that he had the power to do so. Furthermore, if he can erect a barrier big enough to keep the Juubi in place with three others, it is plausible he could do something similar with a much smaller, weaker bijuu on his own.



My mistake - the Viz scan provided by Hussain clarified it.



> By flying on top of the sword, and tapping it. For Onoki it is really that simple.





Ōnoki's body getting destroyed to the point of being unrecognizable is a more believable outcome. The Susanō has four arms and wings as well.



> That makes no sense. If Tsunade chakra pumps him then his mirror becomes significantly larger in size, meaning he will be able to replicate whatever attacks are being thrown, even ones as large as the Kyuubi/PS.



Significant does not necessarily mean scaled up to size of titans like a Perfect Susanō or Kyūbi, or even replicate chakra that potent. Suiton: Mizukagami no Jutsu likely has a threshold, and it makes more sense to believe that it cannot work than believing it would ? in which case, it is a serious overestimation of Tsunade's ability/chakra.



> Seemed fairly obvious to me that Onoki was out of chakra, since he had said that the assault he used prior in unison with Tsunade would be his _last attack_.



Ōnoki dispelled his Jinton, and pretty much gave up when he realized Madara was that powerful. Of course, with a dozen other folks, it may not have that impact initially. . . but there's the Kyūbi to worry about as well.



> Why is that such a bad thing? Being able to warp three is quite significant. There's a chance big enough jintons could destroy them too, since it was capable of erasing Madara's Susano'o chakra.



It is not, but trouble comes when Madara starts firing it indefinitely. Of course, given that Minato and Tobirama will redirect 1-2 that he throws initially, he is most likely to repeat what he attempted against Shinsūsenju.



> Even so, I do not for a second believe Hashirama > all 21 past Kage. That seems completely ridiculous to me.



Initially, I suppose. The Gokage could not believe he destroyed a mountain; in the flashback we saw him casually causing much greater destruction. The scale of their fight has, thus far, only been topped by Rikudō Madara and Naruto with Hagoromo's power. 



> What does this prove? Madara was using all of the things he doesn't have in this match to play around them. Without Hashirama's DNA, edo tensei etc. he wouldn't have been able to play around with them at all. Of course, even with all of those things the Gokage could still form a strategy to force him into a corner and _push him into using Perfect Susano'o_.



Well, he would definitely take certain cautions, if he was alive and without those powers. 



> I should add, in the Viz translation of _that_ scan, Madara claims that he _will_ use Perfect Susano'o again, he says:  _" Now... The perfect Susano'o... Everyone who sees it dies... Or so they say. I'm almost embarassed to have to do this again... I already used it once, but..."_ Tsunade's expression in that panel therefore makes more sense, as does the Five Kage's conditions in the aftermath.[/INDENT][/JUSTIFY]



_but. . . // . . . // My interest has waned thanks to interference. . . // Perhaps I ought to head out to go retrieve Nine Tails instead. . ._​
Seems more like he no longer had the intention to fight Gokage any longer, but Ōnoki and his promise to Naruto happened. Then Madara seemingly beat them with _Mokuton: Jukai Kōtan_ (Tsunade, at least) and most likely the Susanō form, he predominantly uses. . . or even taijutsu (Ei's body lied in a position that hints a possible exchange).



Hussain said:


> This is Edo Madara, he is beyond his prime self as Kabuto stated. EMS Does not have wood to use wood clones. His chakra and body won't regenerate from anything.



Madara destroyed the _Senpō: Myōjinmon_ seals upon his revival, with Hashirama noting that he had regained his past strength. Kabuto obviously overestimated his knowledge of Madara's prime and pretty much anything on the subject.



> He lost half of his body when Onoki used his cub jinton. He was only lucky because he is an edo.



Madara was playing games - they wouldn't have lasted 1 minute, if he wanted to kill them (which is the intent in this battle). 



> Kurama's TBBs are not even close to the Juubi's TBB, Minato can open one big barrier and that will



The barrier space 'closes' as soon the target flies in, which is redirected right after. It does not seem like an ideal to counter to, say _this barrage of bijūdama_. Instead, from what has been shown, Jikūkan Kekkai can only take in one at a time.



> do it. As for your scan, again that 1 TBB, if he used more than one and they all get redirected to him, his PS is not going to take it.



You will have to seriously reconsider, if you believe that bijūdama redirection will worry Madara. The bijūdama did not even destroy the blades (or whatever that is).



> as if touching madara is that impossible did you miss the times when he got cut in half by lee
> attacked by A, got half of his body destroyed by Onoki, was attacked by Gaara and paralysed him
> then got attacked by all the Bijuus, and not to mentioned fodderized by Zetsu.
> 
> ...



Madara is standing atop the Kyūbi's head, likely adorned in the Susanō armor. I don't think they can deal with Madara, unless they neutralize the Kyūbi first.

You need to revisit all those chapters to see what's actually happening in there. None of those sequences tell us anything about Minato's ability to successfully sever Madara's connection with the Kyūbi. Also, Keiyaku Fūin does not sends the bijū lightyears away.



> So you are saying SM, Real Rinnegan madara is weaker than edo madara who is weaker
> than EMS Madara?
> 
> or that EMS has better speed and reaction than himself in a superior stage?



No. Just my way of asking you to reconsider if Lee's kick means anything, when Madara countered Tobirama's Hiraishin maneuver that is awfully familiar.



> Yes, he does.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Ah, Viz translation. MS translation read ". . . gotta put a barrier". I admit I didn't read what he says in his mind.

Not that it makes a difference, as the barrier technique remains unidentified, for one. No implication that it can hold Madara and the Kyūbi ? two. Minato said and attempted to do a lot of other things ? three. So, unless there is any source that we can use to 'realize' him being able to restrain the Kyūbi all by himself, it means nothing.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 23, 2014)

Hasan said:


> I counted 14 in total — only those who have displayed their abilities to some extent. I understand that Battledome is not too rigid to disallow portrayal completely, but we literally have zero idea of some of them, so we will have to restrict them to meat-shield or cheer-leading duties if they are present.



If we're to go purely off feats, then sure. Or we could use common sense to make reasonable assumptions as to what some of those less-elaborated upon Kage are capable of. It would stand to reason that the Shodaime Tsuchikage - who could fly like Onoki and Muu, would also possess many of their doton techniques (and not that it's entirely relevant to this discussion, but the anime explained that he could also use bees in a similar fashion as the Aburame use insects). Naruto, and thus Kishimoto, says that all Raikage are known for their speed. It would be reasonable, therefore, to assume that the Shodaime and Nidaime Raikage possess high speed and strength like their successors. The Shodaime and Sandaime Mizukage are obviously going to be fairly skilled suiton users - so expect large water dragon techniques and defensive barriers if nothing else. The Shodaime and Nidaime Kazekage are likely Jiton and/or Shakuton users. 

Besides anything else those lesser-known Kage are all still ultimately _Kage-level_, so their skills will reflect that status. 



> . . . but Ōnoki did not immediately destroy the flower; the Kage were overwhelmed and even fell to it, for a brief duration. Madara caught them off-guard with Susanō. . . reasonable to assume that Hashirama, too, can follow-up with his techniques - troubling them even further.



It's one thing ambushing _five_ Kage, its another ambushing _twenty-one_. Hashirama is not going to be able to replicate what Madara did, he could try but the other Kage would render whatever he does meaningless while Onoki and/or Muu evaporates his forest. 




> 100x sounds exaggerated.



It isn't. In fact, it may even be more than 100 times as large. Look at Onoki's _normal-sized jinton cube_, and compare it to the one Tsunade effortlessly chakra pumps. [1]



> I would like to think if he attempted to slice them instead of pushing, it would have fatally wounded, if not kill them.



That doesn't necessarily mean that he was playing nice with his use of the _mokuton_, especially since he followed up with a katon with the intent to _scorch_ them immediately afterwards. More likely Madara just didn't want to bring out such a large, fully armoured Susano'o (he didn't do that until the end of the match). Additionally, forming such a Susano'o may have taken longer and gave the Kage more time to react. 



> That. . . did not cross my mind, but I suppose it could work i.e. a Kage Bunshin as a replacement for Hashirama, but eh, four Kage Bunshin holding down the barrier. . .?



They canonly did this to hold the barrier against the Juubi, so it should be perfectly plausible against the Kyuubi.




> My mistake - the Viz scan provided by Hussain clarified it.



No worries.



> Ōnoki's body getting destroyed to the point of being unrecognizable is a more believable outcome. The Susanō has four arms and wings as well.



Not if he's done the same thing to the rest of the Susano'o body. Onoki effortlessly slowed down all five of Madara's Susano'o clones without sustaining any injury - presumably through the use of doton bunshin. He also performed a huge-scale Ultra-Light Weight technique on the Island Turtle and on Madara's meteor, so doing the reverse on his Perfect Susano'o is definitely doable. 



> Significant does not necessarily mean scaled up to size of titans like a Perfect Susanō or Kyūbi, or even replicate chakra that potent. Suiton: Mizukagami no Jutsu likely has a threshold, and it makes more sense to believe that it cannot work than believing it would – in which case, it is a serious overestimation of Tsunade's ability/chakra.



I don't see why. If it could increase the scale of Onoki's jinton so drastically, then it should therefore do the same thing with any other ninjutsu. There shouldn't, theoretically, be a limit to the Mizukagami no Jutsu, because it simply reflects whatever appears in front of it. Granted if it was physically struck by an attack it would be in trouble, but it would easily reflect whatever was in front of it long before that. 

It isn't an over-estimation of Tsunade's chakra reserves either, because after she pumped Onoki's attack so drastically she didn't appear to be even slightly fatigued. In fact, as Perfect Susano'o struck it's sword at the Gokage she was fully ready to use another technique, and then had enough chakra remaining to recover from his katon jutsu striking her arms. This was _after_ she had already restored Onoki and Gaara's chakra reserves at the beginning of the match, and used a lot her chakra on a variety of combat and healing jutsu.




> Ōnoki dispelled his Jinton, and pretty much gave up when he realized Madara was that powerful. Of course, with a dozen other folks, it may not have that impact initially. . . but there's the Kyūbi to worry about as well.



Nah, Onoki was out of chakra and _couldn't use_ his jinton, which consumes _considerable amounts of energy_. He wasn't giving up at all against Perfect Susano'o, in fact, he was doing the _exact opposite_. So I'm not sure what gave you that impression. The Kyuubi may threaten them but it wouldn't scare them into giving up. They're all pretty courageous with strong wills, they wouldn't hesitate so easily.



> It is not, but trouble comes when Madara starts firing it indefinitely. Of course, given that Minato and Tobirama will redirect 1-2 that he throws initially, he is most likely to repeat what he attempted against Shinsūsenju.



Yeah, that is true. However in the initial stages of the match that probably isn't going to happen, and once the barrier has been erected they can infinitely redirect whatever bijuu-damas the Kyuubi throws, even going as far as to catch Madara in the ensuing explosion [2]



> Initially, I suppose. The Gokage could not believe he destroyed a mountain; in the flashback we saw him casually causing much greater destruction. The scale of their fight has, thus far, only been topped by Rikudō Madara and Naruto with Hagoromo's power.



Meh, that doesn't make him better than 21 previous Kage. They're still stronger than him together.



> Well, he would definitely take certain cautions, if he was alive and without those powers.



If he's constantly having to take certain precautions when fighting them, then he obviously isn't going to be able to play around with them, is he? 



> _but. . . // . . . // My interest has waned thanks to interference. . . // Perhaps I ought to head out to go retrieve Nine Tails instead. . ._​
> Seems more like he no longer had the intention to fight Gokage any longer, but Ōnoki and his promise to Naruto happened. Then Madara seemingly beat them with _Mokuton: Jukai Kōtan_ (Tsunade, at least) and most likely the Susanō form, he predominantly uses. . . or even taijutsu (Ei's body lied in a position that hints a possible exchange).



Yes, his interest had waned, so it seemed only all the more fitting that he should finish them off _quickly_ rather than use previously failed methods of combat that they had successfully countered. Madara explicitly implies that he's going to pull out Perfect Susano'o, so there isn't much of an argument there. 

Also, Tsunade wasn't crushed by a branch, it was just hanging above her and censoring the gore (you can tell by the shadow looming over the branch she's lying on top of). It was definitely close to her but it wasn't what caused her to be split in half, it probably just pushed her lower half away from her upper half when it fell. More likely Madara's Perfect Susano'o cut or ripped her in half, hence the great damage to the environment and the huge trees that were cut in half [3] [4] There's no doubt that Madara was using mokuton too, hence the branches everywhere, but by his own admission he uses Perfect Susano'o too (probably to crush their wills).​​


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2014)

they all murder madara quite badly and comfortably. Minato and tobirama alone means bijuudama gets horribly trolled. Tsunade to amp their chakra if they run out. Then we have raikage who tied with hacibi 
Then for offense we have 2 jinton users +sanbi for bijuudama replies, 1 of them ultra lightweighted a meteor while low on chakra. no doubt susanoo will become an airball for raikage's to punch around. * Please note 4th mizukage was a perfect jin with water mirror technique. Not impossible to assume he can counter everything madara can throw at him. * 

Honestly just tobirama+minato+tsunade+muu+onoki and both raikage shoudl already win. 

Adding gaara, 3rd kazekage, and 4th kazekage to tank attacks via sand, plus 2nd mizukage with jokey and 4th who was a jin which means bijuudama replies from team kage is an utter stomp. 

2 laser dama's vs kyuubi bijuudama barrage think they cancel each other out. so they shouldnt be worried about that. 

tsunade also has 5% katsuuyu to shield them and minato has 3 boss toads to also act as meat tanks and try slow susanoo down.

He can also conveniently summon them untop of susanoo. 

Over weighted gold sand+sand+iron sand will stop susanoo flat.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 23, 2014)

madara fodderizes. portrayal wise, only hashirama can defeat him.


minato and tobirama are limited in the amount of bijudama that they will be able to warp as shown with obito and the bijudama tree.


minato could teleport more than one with more markings as he stated himself, but any markings in the area will be destroyed simply by PS sword slashes and any of madaras high powered jutsu.

the 5 kage, which includes a jinton user, were canonically unable to do anything against perfect susano.

none of the 21 kages can even compete with the scale of madaras jutsus. they are wiped off the planet while their jutsus simply bounce off of madaras susano.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2014)

2 amp'd jinton do not bounce off susanoo. PS susanoo cannot tank jinton nothing can tank jinton 
nothing but juubi jins black rods can


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## Hasan (Jun 23, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> If we're to go purely off feats, then sure. Or we could use common sense to make reasonable assumptions as to what some of those less-elaborated upon Kage are capable of. It would stand to reason that the Shodaime Tsuchikage - who could fly like Onoki and Muu, would also possess many of their doton techniques (and not that it's entirely relevant to this discussion, but the anime explained that he could also use bees in a similar fashion as the Aburame use insects). Naruto, and thus Kishimoto, says that all Raikage are known for their speed. It would be reasonable, therefore, to assume that the Shodaime and Nidaime Raikage possess high speed and strength like their successors. The Shodaime and Sandaime Mizukage are obviously going to be fairly skilled suiton users - so expect large water dragon techniques and defensive barriers if nothing else. The Shodaime and Nidaime Kazekage are likely Jiton and/or Shakuton users.
> 
> Besides anything else those lesser-known Kage are all still ultimately _Kage-level_, so their skills will reflect that status.



Well, battledome is that place. . .

A reasonable assumption, in my opinion, would be akin to: "Sakumo was a kenjutsu-expert". You are basing that off an idea (the famous Hakkō Chakura Tō) attached to that particular character. However, even that is insufficient by battledome standards, if I am not wrong. These Kage cannot even boast that.



> It's one thing ambushing _five_ Kage, its another ambushing _twenty-one_. Hashirama is not going to be able to replicate what Madara did, he could try but the other Kage would render whatever he does meaningless while Onoki and/or Muu evaporates his forest.



Kajukai Kōrin, followed shortly by Senpō: Myōjinmon can incapacitate most, if not all, fighters. Or Jukai Kōtan, which took this many Naruto clones with giant Rasengan to counter. Hashirama primarily have techniques with large AOE, number should not be a problem.



> It isn't. In fact, it may even be more than 100 times as large. Look at Onoki's _normal-sized jinton cube_, and compare it to the one Tsunade effortlessly chakra pumps. [1]



Ah, I had imagined he could specify size at will; I recall his grandson stopped him, saying that he could potentially destroy the island.



> That doesn't necessarily mean that he was playing nice with his use of the _mokuton_, especially since he followed up with a katon with the intent to _scorch_ them immediately afterwards. More likely Madara just didn't want to bring out such a large, fully armoured Susano'o (he didn't do that until the end of the match). Additionally, forming such a Susano'o may have taken longer and gave the Kage more time to react.



However, if you compare that Madara to the down-to-business Madara, the former does appear nice and playful.



> They canonly did this to hold the barrier against the Juubi, so it should be perfectly plausible against the Kyuubi.



Their real-selves held down the barrier. I understand that Jūbi was stronger, but nothing implies they need a fraction of their power to entrap a weaker bijū, who is aided by stronger-than-the-bijū-itself person.

Is it even possible to maintain a weaker Shisekyōjin, by the way? Focusing little chakra will not create a weaker Chidori. I understand that they can strengthen if required, but there is definitely a low-threshold, below which the techinque cannot be formed, let alone maintained. _Eh, a bit late I realize that, but whatever. . ._



> Not if he's done the same thing to the rest of the Susano'o body. Onoki effortlessly slowed down all five of Madara's Susano'o clones without sustaining any injury - presumably through the use of doton bunshin. He also performed a huge-scale Ultra-Light Weight technique on the Island Turtle and on Madara's meteor, so doing the reverse on his Perfect Susano'o is definitely doable.



Theoratically, perhaps. Madara's intent is to kill here; he is not going to idly, while team Kage do all sort of stuff.



> I don't see why. If it could increase the scale of Onoki's jinton so drastically, then it should therefore do the same thing with any other ninjutsu. There shouldn't, theoretically, be a limit to the Mizukagami no Jutsu, because it simply reflects whatever appears in front of it. Granted if it was physically struck by an attack it would be in trouble, but it would easily reflect whatever was in front of it long before that.
> 
> It isn't an over-estimation of Tsunade's chakra reserves either, because after she pumped Onoki's attack so drastically she didn't appear to be even slightly fatigued. In fact, as Perfect Susano'o struck it's sword at the Gokage she was fully ready to use another technique, and then had enough chakra remaining to recover from his katon jutsu striking her arms. This was _after_ she had already restored Onoki and Gaara's chakra reserves at the beginning of the match, and used a lot her chakra on a variety of combat and healing jutsu.



​
Er, the idea that _Perfect Susanō_ is going to be reflected just like that, sits well with you? I have repeated the question several times in my mind - gets more absurd each time. This also implies that Yagura + Tsunade duo can match Madara.



> Nah, Onoki was out of chakra and _couldn't use_ his jinton, which consumes _considerable amounts of energy_. He wasn't giving up at all against Perfect Susano'o, in fact, he was doing the _exact opposite_. So I'm not sure what gave you that impression. The Kyuubi may threaten them but it wouldn't scare them into giving up. They're all pretty courageous with strong wills, they wouldn't hesitate so easily.



Ōnoki lowers his hand, dispelling the technique.

The Viz translation presents a different tone:


​


> Yeah, that is true. However in the initial stages of the match that probably isn't going to happen, and once the barrier has been erected they can infinitely redirect whatever bijuu-damas the Kyuubi throws, even going as far as to catch Madara in the ensuing explosion [2]



Hashirama and Madara seemed to have survived the 4 Jūbi bijūdama.



> Meh, that doesn't make him better than 21 previous Kage. They're still stronger than him together.



Well, I think it makes a difference if the destruction, just one of them has caused, can kill all of them with a single strike. They were sent flying away when Madara was not even aiming at them; safe to say his omni-directional swing will dig their graves 10 miles from their original position.



> If he's constantly having to take certain precautions when fighting them, then he obviously isn't going to be able to play around with them, is he?



One way of looking at it, I suppose. If you can kill them at any moment you want to, but you nonetheless fight to check their strength. . . I do not doubt that he could play around even as an alive human.



> Yes, his interest had waned, so it seemed only all the more fitting that he should finish them off _quickly_ rather than use previously failed methods of combat that they had successfully countered. Madara explicitly implies that he's going to pull out Perfect Susano'o, so there isn't much of an argument there.
> 
> Also, Tsunade wasn't crushed by a branch, it was just hanging above her and censoring the gore (you can tell by the shadow looming over the branch she's lying on top of). It was definitely close to her but it wasn't what caused her to be split in half, it probably just pushed her lower half away from her upper half when it fell. More likely Madara's Perfect Susano'o cut or ripped her in half, hence the great damage to the environment and the huge trees that were cut in half [3] [4] There's no doubt that Madara was using mokuton too, hence the branches everywhere, but by his own admission he uses Perfect Susano'o too (probably to crush their wills).



The Susanō blade is several times bigger than her body. How can a blade that big cut a body that precisely - at waist-line? He beat Guy and Bee nearly as bad without that.

The cut Mokuton branches were also seen after Madara demonstrated the Perfect Susanō, when moves forward to kill them.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2014)

You guys do realise that Kurama is pretty fast, right?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 24, 2014)

Hasan said:


> Well, battledome is that place. . .
> 
> A reasonable assumption, in my opinion, would be akin to: "Sakumo was a kenjutsu-expert". You are basing that off an idea (the famous Hakkō Chakura Tō) attached to that particular character. However, even that is insufficient by battledome standards, if I am not wrong. These Kage cannot even boast that.



The battledome isn't limited to feats, that is just a misconception among people who don't visit here very often. Hype and in-manga statements are perfectly fine to use in discussions, within reason. 



> Kajukai Kōrin, followed shortly by Senpō: Myōjinmon can incapacitate most, if not all, fighters. Or Jukai Kōtan, which took this many Naruto clones with giant Rasengan to counter. Hashirama primarily have techniques with large AOE, number should not be a problem.



It caught Obito off-guard. It won't catch a Kage off-guard when there are 21 others surrounding them, especially when you've got the likes of Minato who can warp it elsewhere. Jukai Koutan does have a large AoE but again, the Kage have an innumerable amount of methods of dealing with it while others are dealing with whatever else Hashirama is doing.



> Ah, I had imagined he could specify size at will; I recall his grandson stopped him, saying that he could potentially destroy the island.



He was probably planning to use the cone-shaped jinton that he used to destroy Kajukai Kōrin. It was still tiny in comparison to the Island Turtle though, and Onoki obviously doesn't have enough to create an Island-turtle sized jinton. Akatsuchi (who isn't actually his grandson, btw) was probably just fussing in case the particle style hit any shinobi/animals and killed them. 



> However, if you compare that Madara to the down-to-business Madara, the former does appear nice and playful.



Madara isn't using mokuton in any of those scans, so I still don't see how he was playing nice specifically in his use of wood techniques. Yes, he was playing around with the Gokage _otherwise_, but he still required his edo tensei body and rinnegan to do so. He either didn't have his edo tensei body against Naruto etc. and thus had to fight relentlessly, or fought relentlessly because he was missing one of his eyes.



> Their real-selves held down the barrier. I understand that Jūbi was stronger, but nothing implies they need a fraction of their power to entrap a weaker bijū, who is aided by stronger-than-the-bijū-itself person.



Common sense does. The Kyuubi is what, a ninth, if even, of the Juubi's total power. A single Kage Bunshin possesses half the chakra of the original, so even mathematically speaking it should be plausible. The Hokage were capable of dividing their chakra up among Bunshin while maintaining the barrier, so the opposite should be do-able [1]



> Is it even possible to maintain a weaker Shisekyōjin, by the way? Focusing little chakra will not create a weaker Chidori. I understand that they can strengthen if required, but there is definitely a low-threshold, below which the techinque cannot be formed, let alone maintained. _Eh, a bit late I realize that, but whatever. . ._



I'm not sure, the nature of techniques varies on an individual basis. Chidori is nothing at all like Shisekyōjin, so it's not a great comparison. However if the Kage can put up a barrier to hold down the Juubi, it only seems right that they should at least be able to put up other barriers to restrain smaller bijuu, even if they can't create a smaller scale Shisekyōjin.



> Theoratically, perhaps. Madara's intent is to kill here; he is not going to idly, while team Kage do all sort of stuff.



It only takes Onoki a brief tap to weigh the Susano'o down, so it's not like he'll be able to do anything about it. 



> ​
> Er, the idea that _Perfect Susanō_ is going to be reflected just like that, sits well with you? I have repeated the question several times in my mind - gets more absurd each time. This also implies that Yagura + Tsunade duo can match Madara.



I generally think Perfect Susano'o is over-rated, but yes, it does. That being said, the reflection Yagura creates is ultimately made of water, and while it could _clash with PS's attack_ and block it, it will eventually dissipate back into water since it's durability is below PS's. Tsunade + Yagura together cannot defeat Perfect Susano'o, just successfully block it's moves for as long as they have chakra.



> Ōnoki lowers his hand, dispelling the technique.



No, once again, he does not. He doesn't even have enough chakra to form a jinton, never mind dispel it. I've already shown you that the attack he performed in unison with Tsunade was, by his own admission, his last attack. He didn't have enough chakra to perform another, evidenced by the fact that the exact same thing happened to him when he was fighting Muu. 



> The Viz translation presents a different tone:
> 
> 
> ​



It's a different, more enigmatic wording, but it means the exact same thing. They're seemingly losing (stumbling in the dark) but are so close to attaining what they had set out to do (close to the light at the end of the tunnel). In no way do I see evidence of Onoki wanting to give up. The only Kage who was clearly giving up was Mei, and the other Kage quickly dismiss her cowardice and persist in their efforts to combat Madara. 



> Hashirama and Madara seemed to have survived the 4 Jūbi bijūdama.



I'm not really sure where they are in relation to those bijuu-damas, or if they were even caught in the blast, but they were both edo tensei, so it stands to reason that they could survive the blast. VOTE Madara could not.




> Well, I think it makes a difference if the destruction, just one of them has caused, can kill all of them with a single strike. They were sent flying away when Madara was not even aiming at them; safe to say his omni-directional swing will dig their graves 10 miles from their original position.



Except that the 21 Kage can counter that easily.



> One way of looking at it, I suppose. If you can kill them at any moment you want to, but you nonetheless fight to check their strength. . . I do not doubt that he could play around even as an alive human.



As an alive human, with the rinnegan, with Hashirama's DNA and his Sage Mode. VOTE Madara has none of those things.



> The Susanō blade is several times bigger than her body. How can a blade that big cut a body that precisely - at waist-line? He beat Guy and Bee nearly as bad without that.



The Susano'o sword is ethereal, though. Chances are it's gaseous like form can change in size and width at will - it probably thinned enough that it could slice Tsunade up, as opposed to just smack her like a club. It is possible that Madara cut her in half otherwise I suppose . . but I'm not sure what else in his arsenal would be capable of doing that whenever she has the means (super strength and instant-regen) to avoid that happening. In my opinion anyway, Perfect Susano'o was what cut her in half.



> The cut Mokuton branches were also seen after Madara demonstrated the Perfect Susanō, when moves forward to kill them.



There's no guarantee that those are the same ones (since the battlefield was littered in giant branches), though there is a possibility that they are.​​


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## Hasan (Jun 26, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The battledome isn't limited to feats, that is just a misconception among people who don't visit here very often. Hype and in-manga statements are perfectly fine to use in discussions, within reason.



True, and which I did agree to - earlier. Hence—

Shodai Tsuchikage being an expert in doton registers, but him using any or all techniques of Ōnoki does not. I understand that they are pretty generic techniques, but no one brings up Mū using those techniques in all other hypothetical fights. On top of that, we do not even know their mindset in a fight.



> It caught Obito off-guard. It won't catch a Kage off-guard when there are 21 others surrounding them, especially when you've got the likes of Minato who can warp it elsewhere.



He is able to drop multiple - there were 11 of those torī gates that restrainted the Jūbi. There are certainly those who can escape it – namely Minato, Hiruzen and Tobirama – but bodes well it does not for the others. Then the situation becomes pretty similar to recent events in the manga.



> Jukai Koutan does have a large AoE but again, the Kage have an innumerable amount of methods of dealing with it while others are dealing with whatever else Hashirama is doing.



If used exclusively, which is why I said Kajukai Kōrin would precede it. If one technique is already putting you under pressure; another one of the same scale used on top of it is going to cause even more trouble. Thus, more difficult to counter.



> Madara isn't using mokuton in any of those scans, so I still don't see how he was playing nice specifically in his use of wood techniques. Yes, he was playing around with the Gokage _otherwise_, but he still required his edo tensei body and rinnegan to do so.



I was talking about mindset in both instances.



> He either didn't have his edo tensei body against Naruto etc. and thus had to fight relentlessly, or fought relentlessly because he was missing one of his eyes.



More like it was time for Mugen Tsukuyomi. He stole Sennin chakra; the bijū and became a jinchūriki five minutes after his revival. Then crashes the party at Kakashi's place to get his other eye. Losing an immortal body and one eye has nothing to do with it. . . It's just him being serious - as opposed to testing the five kage's strength.



> Common sense does. The Kyuubi is what, a ninth, if even, of the Juubi's total power. A single Kage Bunshin possesses half the chakra of the original, so even mathematically speaking it should be plausible. The Hokage were capable of dividing their chakra up among Bunshin while maintaining the barrier, so the opposite should be do-able [1]



Hashirama was reduced to few Moku-bunshin; common sense also dictates that a huge of his power alone was maintaining the barrier - without which it should be exponentially weaker. Then you have the remaining three splitting their chakra, further weakening the barrier. Kyūbi is weaker, so is the barrier at fraction of the power it was canonically maintained with.



> I'm not sure, the nature of techniques varies on an individual basis. Chidori is nothing at all like Shisekyōjin, so it's not a great comparison.



Ebisu explains that to Naruto, I believe. . .

Actually, after revisiting the pages (as well as those of Obito's Musekiyōjin), it appears that barrier's strength is uniform. There is no weaker or stronger Shisekiyōjin, and given they were severely limited in their clone-usage with Hashirama at their side, the barrier without him is impossible.



> However if the Kage can put up a barrier to hold down the Juubi, it only seems right that they should at least be able to put up other barriers to restrain smaller bijuu, even if they can't create a smaller scale Shisekyōjin.



Well, Minato's unknown technique does not help.



> It only takes Onoki a brief tap to weigh the Susano'o down, so it's not like he'll be able to do anything about it.



That is kind of an issue; why do you think Madara is so considerate to let him? And eh (Kyūbi is fast). . .



> I generally think Perfect Susano'o is over-rated, but yes, it does. That being said, the reflection Yagura creates is ultimately made of water, and while it could _clash with PS's attack_ and block it, it will eventually dissipate back into water since it's durability is below PS's. Tsunade + Yagura together cannot defeat Perfect Susano'o, just successfully block it's moves for as long as they have chakra.



I read your response from the other thread. . . My concern was not much about the frame, as it was about the output (power of reflections). You seem to agree that it cannot be used an offense against Perfect Susanō or the Kyūbi, but will momentarily clash before turning to water.

So to simplify, we have an issue if you believe that the momentary clash will bring down the momentum of the real, more powerful body – I presume you do, since you took your valuable time to discuss that Yagura's technique could be useful.



> No, once again, he does not. He doesn't even have enough chakra to form a jinton, never mind dispel it. I've already shown you that the attack he performed in unison with Tsunade was, by his own admission, his last attack. He didn't have enough chakra to perform another, evidenced by the fact that the exact same thing happened to him when he was fighting Muu.



Read the previous page, where Mei and Ōnoki states their strategy in their minds. They intended to dull Madara's movements with _raiton-infused Suiton: Suiryūdan_ (if the sand was not enough), *to create an opening for his Jinton*.

What happened to that Jinton? He definitely dispelled it himself; you can even see its traces along with Raikage's raiton, as Susanō stablizes.



> I'm not really sure where they are in relation to those bijuu-damas, or if they were even caught in the blast, but they were both edo tensei, so it stands to reason that they could survive the blast. VOTE Madara could not.



They both were inside the barrier alongside Obito, when the four bombs exploded. Obito immediately unleashes the Shinjū afterwards; they both were fine.



> Except that the 21 Kage can counter that easily.



Er, 21 Kage are mice in a football stadium. I think it not being a double spread is distorting your perception of the area he destroyed.



> As an alive human, with the rinnegan, with Hashirama's DNA and his Sage Mode. VOTE Madara has none of those things.



Um, what?



> The Susano'o sword is ethereal, though. Chances are it's gaseous like form can change in size and width at will - it probably thinned enough that it could slice Tsunade up, as opposed to just smack her like a club.



No such thing is stated or implied.



> It is possible that Madara cut her in half otherwise I suppose . . but I'm not sure what else in his arsenal would be capable of doing that whenever she has the means (super strength and instant-regen) to avoid that happening. In my opinion anyway, Perfect Susano'o was what cut her in half.



His regular Susanō form - its blades pierced her body. A horizontal swing along the waist-line could definitely cut her body in half. 



> There's no guarantee that those are the same ones (since the battlefield was littered in giant branches), though there is a possibility that they are.



Well, the field was filled with Mokuton everywhere.


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## JuicyG (Jul 6, 2014)

You guys are not realizing the potential power of 21 COLLECTIVE kage-level ninja ALL working together on the same goal. This isn't a gauntlet so stop treating it as one. Of course none of these kages individually have anything to hurt madara much, but using all them together is entirely different story. If anything they could outlast madara if they worked together and played the defensive side until madara burns out.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 6, 2014)

Kurama with Madara backing him up is too much for these Kage.

These Kage, collectively, would find it a mission in itself to fight Kurama or Madara alone. Together these two are just too powerful for the Kage ITT.


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> These Kage, collectively, would find it a mission in itself to fight Kurama or Madara alone. Together these two are just too powerful for the Kage ITT.



This is just lolski's.

Minato, his dying wife, and 20 minute-old Naruto trio'd Kurama. No matter how good she matches up against the fox, twenty Kage are immeasurably > Dying Kushina & Newborn Nardo.

Madara isn't really that much stronger than Kurama either.


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## JuicyG (Jul 6, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kurama with Madara backing him up is too much for these Kage.
> 
> These Kage, collectively, would find it a mission in itself to fight Kurama or Madara alone. Together these two are just too powerful for the Kage ITT.



I could pick 1 or 2 kage themselves who together could handle kurama and seal him...The rest would be surrounding madara. 18-19 kages vs Living Ems madara...madara loses


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> This is just lolski's.
> 
> Minato, his dying wife, and 20 minute-old Naruto trio'd Kurama. No matter how good she matches up against the fox, twenty Kage are immeasurably > Dying Kushina & Newborn Nardo.
> 
> Madara isn't really that much stronger than Kurama either.



Minato died to do that in case you forgot. 

ITT Kurama is being controlled by Madara whose backing Kurama up.

Madara alone would stomp Minato several times over. He would stomp these Kage several times over individually. In fact, without going full force while being an Edo, he took several of these Kages. He also managed to take two Jinton users without going into full force. 

Oonoki, knowing about all these Kage (bar Hashirama who is obviously in a league of his own), believed Madara Uchiha with all his power could just take the Gokage and the samurai without resorting to the back seat tactics Obito used. 

So there's a lot of reason to believe Madara alone would be a threat. Obviously unless Minato would like to die, he's not doing what he did to Kurama again. 

And based on Minato's performance against Kurama, whilst your severe undermining of Madara's capabilities, you want to say these two wouldn't probably beat the Kage?
To be frank, with Madara's portrayal and feats, its very shocking for you to believe bloody Minato, alone, could threaten the guy. 

If Minato had Asura's chakra and Mokuton, then I'd believe you.



JuicyG said:


> I could pick 1 or 2 kage themselves who together could handle kurama and seal him...The rest would be surrounding madara. 18-19 kages vs Living Ems madara...madara loses



Go ahead, pick these 1 or 2 Kage combinations and tell me how that's going to work out.

Note you're going to have to tell me why Madara can't simply summon Kurama.


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## JuicyG (Jul 6, 2014)

> Go ahead, pick these 1 or 2 Kage combinations and tell me how that's going to work out.
> 
> Note you're going to have to tell me why Madara can't simply summon Kurama.



Either Hiruzen and Minato will land the Shiki Fujin seal, and those two are enough to at least distract Kurama to get the job done was well.

As for Madara he will be surrounded (literally) by the following :

A
Gaara
4th kazekage
Mu
2nd Mizukage
Onoki
2nd Raikage
3rd Raikage
Tobriama Senju
Danzo (still counts)
Mei
1st Tsuchikage
Tsunade
Yagura

Madara will be OUTLASTED. End of story...


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato died to do that in case you forgot.
> 
> ITT Kurama is being controlled by Madara whose backing Kurama up.



I didn't, and I know.



> Madara alone would stomp Minato several times over. He would stomp these Kage several times over individually.



EMS Madz can only 'stomp' Minato with Perfect Susano'o, and considering his demeanor in nearly all of the battles we've seen him partake in, there's more of a chance he'll be blindsided by _Shiki Fūjin_ (which Madara cannot even see) than him subduing the evasive Yellow Flash while entertained by over a dozen Kage class fighters.





> In fact, without going full force while being an Edo, he took several of these Kages. He also managed to take two Jinton users without going into full force.



Edo Madara isn't any weaker than EMS Madara, and he was only took out five Kage, which were composed of mostly weaker Kage at that.



> So there's a lot of reason to believe Madara alone would be a threat. Obviously unless Minato would like to die, he's not doing what he did to Kurama again.



I missed the indication that Madara has a legitimate chance at defeating twenty Kage, or whatever the total is.


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## Jak N Blak (Jul 7, 2014)

Prime Onoki SOLOS


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> MS Madz can only 'stomp' Minato with Perfect Susano'o, and considering his demeanor in nearly all of the battles we've seen him partake in, there's more of a chance he'll be blindsided by _Shiki Fūjin_ (which Madara cannot even see) than him subduing the evasive Yellow Flash while entertained by over a dozen Kage class fighters.



Madara can actually block Ei in the last minute, something Minato isn't fast enough to do. That reflex edge is something to note. 
Unless Minato jumps to Hashirama level, Perfect Susanoo isn't a must to take someone like Minato.

Also you basically said Minato needs to kill himself in order to blindside Madara. 

Madara has shown fighting large numbers doesn't deter him. He's got a range of jutsu which allow him to enable him to engage this style of combat. Let's not forget Kurama here; those dozen foes are virtually nothing with Madara's arsenal + Kurama.





> Edo Madara isn't any weaker than EMS Madara, and he was only took out five Kage, which were composed of mostly weaker Kage at that.



Read the manga: Hashirama said Madara *regained* his full might *after* being revived. Using common sense: that means he didn't have his full might prior Rinne Tensei.

So without his full might he was able to take these weaker Kage. Without going all out he was able to take two Jinton users.
There's a reason characters who know his power and the power of other Kage, such as Dan, claim only Hashirama can take him out.



> I missed the indication that Madara has a legitimate chance at defeating twenty Kage, or whatever the total is.



Then you also missed the indications which suggested that these Kage together match or exceed Hashirama. Lets not forget that you have absolutely given no credible evidence or explanation that these Kage can even hope to take Madara + Kurama. The closest thing you've given as an argument was just Minato... killing himself....



JuicyG said:


> Either Hiruzen and Minato will land the Shiki Fujin seal, and those two are enough to at least distract Kurama to get the job done was well.



You just said they need to die to kill him. Also it is hard to distract a Kurama that Madara completely controls. Also Minato could barely take Kurama with Shikifuujin; Hiruzen won't be able to.

With Kurama, Madara will utterly stomp them with some slashes and even Bijuu Dama if need be.



> As for Madara he will be surrounded (literally) by the following :
> 
> A
> Gaara
> ...



Madara beat the 5 Kage together. He also beat two Jinton users without Perfect Susanoo. 

Unless you prove these Kage together are superior to, or equal to, Hashirama. Then your point doesn't work here.


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## Lord Aizen (Jul 8, 2014)

With minato hiruzen and tobirama on the field no kage is in danger. I give it to the kages. Madara will be using perfect susanoo, minato, tobirama tag all the kages, hiruzen uses shadow clone Jutsu on all of minatos tags on the battlefield multiplying them by 100 easily. Tsunade powers muu and oonaki like a battery they both fire giant jintons. With the tags everywhere minato and tobirama can teleport everyone at any time getting them out of danger. Yagura uses 3 tails to bijuu bomb perfect sasunoo while madara being evaporated by giant jintons.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 8, 2014)

Madara wipes out half of them with a PS sword swing imo.

If Minato or Tobirama redirect a TBB at Madara, the area of effect[1] of the bijuu dama will hit all the other kages who can't teleport with friendly fire.

Madara's PS was barely busted by the combined effects of 10-11 of 100% kyuubi's standard bijuu bombs + SM Hashirama's shinsuusenju's punches. [2]

The kages' strongest attacks in comparison are three tailed bijuu bombs(which would hit the other kage) and jinton which has been blocked by a lesser version of Susano'o before.


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## ARGUS (Jul 9, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Madara's PS was barely busted by the combined effects of 10-11 of 100% kyuubi's standard bijuu bombs + SM Hashirama's shinsuusenju's punches. [2]
> .


the 11 PS-infused TBB were clashed with Chojo Kobetsu,,, and it was just the SS punches that managed to bust it open, however the onslaught still managed to destroy alot of the hands of SS


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## ARGUS (Jul 9, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> With minato hiruzen and tobirama on the field no kage is in danger. I give it to the kages. Madara will be using perfect susanoo, minato, tobirama tag all the kages, hiruzen uses shadow clone Jutsu on all of minatos tags on the battlefield multiplying them by 100 easily. Tsunade powers muu and oonaki like a battery they both fire giant jintons. With the tags everywhere minato and tobirama can teleport everyone at any time getting them out of danger. Yagura uses 3 tails to bijuu bomb perfect sasunoo while madara being evaporated by giant jintons.


1. PS slashes and Kyuubis TBB would have the AOE that would bypass the limits of FTG, meaning that the kages cant jus teleport anywhere

2. PS slashes are quicker than jinton, as the latter would require alot of charge up time to bust something as large as PS

3. Three-tails was taken out by Deidara without much efforts,, PS and Kyuuubi from madara woulda annihilate it with ease, 

4. Hiruzen cannot use over 100 KB,, thats pure ridiculous, and even then, before they manage to set marks, its more likely that the kages would get bisected by PS or nuked off the planet by the kyuubi, especially since the latter would be armored in PS


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 9, 2014)

> the 11 PS-infused TBB were clashed with Chojo Kobetsu,,, and it was just the SS punches that managed to bust it open, however the onslaught still managed to destroy alot of the hands of SS


 Even though the TB were fired at Hashirama and not PS, Madara's PS was in close enough proximity to shinsuusenju that it would of had to weather the area of effect of its own bijuu damas all the same. 

It wasn't direct impact per say, but none the less it still withstood the collateral damage of several bijuu dama exploded in close proximity.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2014)

Would these Kage really start encouraging Madara to make clones... one PS is bad enough.


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## Rocky (Jul 9, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara can actually block Ei in the last minute, something Minato isn't fast enough to do. That reflex edge is something to note.



Madara can block the Raikage's standard (v1) Raiton Flicker from a decent distance away. Minato had to warp away from A's maximum power (v2) Raiton Shunshin from a shorter distance.

So, uh, what reflex edge?



> Also you basically said Minato needs to kill himself in order to blindside Madara.



So?



> Madara has shown fighting large numbers doesn't deter him. He's got a range of jutsu which allow him to enable him to engage this style of combat. Let's not forget Kurama here; those dozen foes are virtually nothing with Madara's arsenal + Kurama.



Madara has never performed well against, or even fought a group as numerous _and powerful_ as twenty Kage, so I would love to see which part of the manga you are drawing your evidence from. 





> Read the manga: Hashirama said Madara *regained* his full might *after* being revived. Using common sense: that means he didn't have his full might prior Rinne Tensei.



Alive Madara~Hashirama fusion > Edo Madara > VotE Madara.



> Then you also missed the indications which suggested that these Kage together match or exceed Hashirama. Lets not forget that you have absolutely given no credible evidence or explanation that these Kage can even hope to take Madara + Kurama. The closest thing you've given as an argument was just Minato... killing himself.



I remember Hashirama being pegged as the strongest shinobi of his time. This isn't reason to say he rolls through a dozen+ high caliber ninja with limitless combination potential. Go ahead and point me to the manga page that says Hashirama (or Madara) is stronger than the collective might of _every_ other known Kage.

I also don't know why you keep dismissing Shiki Fūjin for no apparent reason. Madara has no true counter to it, no knowledge that Minato can use it, and no way to even see it coming. Suicide or not, Minato hitting Madara with that seal ends the fight with the Kage victorious.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Madara can block the Raikage's standard (v1) Raiton Flicker from a decent distance away. Minato had to warp away from A's maximum power (v2) Raiton Shunshin from a shorter distance.
> 
> So, uh, what reflex edge?



He also had to warp away from V1 A; look at the whole flashback.



> So?



Pretty weak to suggest Minato himself could do much to Madara. This is assuming Madara doesn't even use Izanagi.



> Madara has never performed well against, or even fought a group as numerous _and powerful_ as twenty Kage, so I would love to see which part of the manga you are drawing your evidence from.



Unless you want to consider *the entire shinobi world* fodder, and even a blind Madara taking the likes of SM Naruto (whose stronger than Minato), Sai and EMS Sasuke with next to nothing... 

Madara has already stomped a good deal of these Kage either alone or when they were in groups. Two Jinton users didn't beat him, a Hiraishin user didn't beat him... 5 Kage with diverse abilities didn't beat him.

There's a reason someone who knows of all the other Kage (Dan) said only Hashirama can do the job.
Plus your point would be stronger if you give me a reason, with evidence, to believe these Kage together threaten Madara rather than just be vague and focus on one Kage (Minato).

Unless you want to tell me Madara is severely held back ITT, then you're not going to be very convincing. 



> Alive Madara~Hashirama fusion > Edo Madara > VotE Madara.



Read the manga:

Living Madara>Edo Madara. Hashirama, the man who knows Madara said it himself.



> I remember Hashirama being pegged as the strongest shinobi of his time. This isn't reason to say he rolls through a dozen+ high caliber ninja with limitless combination potential. Go ahead and point me to the manga page that says Hashirama (or Madara) is stronger than the collective might of _every_ other known Kage.



Actually considering what the likes of Madara and Hashirama can shown, guys like Minato and other Kage in this thread really are nothing to them. 
I can't give you a manga page till you actually show me why you believe Minato and the other Kage can challenge this tier. 



> I also don't know why you keep dismissing Shiki Fūjin for no apparent reason. Madara has no true counter to it, no knowledge that Minato can use it, and no way to even see it coming. Suicide or not, Minato hitting Madara with that seal ends the fight with the Kage victorious.



I don't consider it as much because you're ignoring various factors in this thread.
There's Kurama to consider, even Susanoo. 

Minato at most will just seal half of Kurama and die a pointless death. Madara could simply evade Shikifuujin with Izanagi, yet another factor you chose not to consider while you were mentioning Minato's Shikifuujin.


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## αce (Jul 10, 2014)

Madara just muscles through with Susano-o coated Kyuubi. It took a full barrage from Hashirama's strongest sage ability to break _Susano-o_ and afterwards the Kyuubi and Madara were _still _unharmed and he had to resort to an ability to rip the Kyuubi from Madara. The kage's cannot replicate that type of fire power in the first place and so Madara and the Kyuubi are not even going to be touched.


How many of these scrub kage are actually going to survive the initial bijuu dama and susano-o swing spam? Minato and maybe Tobirama. Muu if he's lucky. The rest die a horrible death within seconds. Tobirama and Minato cannot save over a dozen other kage's simultaneously and cannot protect them from casual bijuu dama's and mountain cutting sword slices that take 0 effort from Madara unless they want to be on the defensive anyways.



I don't think you people realize how _easily_ Madara kills a majority of these kage once he spams his high level abilities. I mean, he did easily beat Muu and Oonoki with just his base abilities. Add the full expression of Indra's powers in the eternal mangekyou and the _fucking kyuubi_ and this becomes a rather comical stomp. The low end kage's, of which there are a lot are a complete non factor. As is even someone like Tsunade since she can't heal people while the landscape gets turned into hell.

Minato survives possibly the first bijuu dama barrage. Maybe Tobirama. The rest die from the collateral damage and shockwaves.




> As for Madara he will be surrounded (literally) by the following :
> 
> *A
> Gaara
> ...




This seems to be the only argument in favour of the kage. "They have the numbers". They don't outlast. The vast majority don't last 3 minutes.The bolded all die horrible deaths to the initial bijuu dama and Susano-o sword attacks. And if by some miracle they happen to survive, please enlighten me on how Kage's like Mei, the Raikage, Tsunade, Gaara and his dad do anything to Madara whatsoever.

This team lacks the fire power to break perfect Susano-o and as a result they die. It's as simple as that.


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