# Justice League Unlimited Vs. HST



## Radical Edward (Nov 27, 2012)

Location: Default

Distance: Default  

State of Mind: Default  

Scenario 1: No restrictions 

Scenario 2 Bijju

Scenario 3: All Heroes,Villains, and Neutral Characters from the DCAU


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## Solrac (Nov 27, 2012)

Justice League stomps.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 27, 2012)

Amazo teleports all three of their planets into the sun.


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## Angelos (Nov 27, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Amazo teleports all three of their planets into the sun.



"It was in the way. So I moved it."


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 27, 2012)




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## Luna (Nov 27, 2012)

The JL takes this.


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## Lord Raizen (Nov 27, 2012)

Radical Edward said:


> Location: Default
> 
> Distance: Default
> 
> ...



In this first scenario, are you refering to Justice League Unlimited as a series' or just the team?


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 27, 2012)

The Watch Tower solos.


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## Whats_Out_The_ Bag (Nov 27, 2012)

The JLU has planet busters.
The HST has Island busters. 

The JLU has characters with Light speed reaction and movement.
The HST has characters with Hypersonic speed and reaction.

Seems fair to me.
I vote for HST


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## feebas_factor (Nov 27, 2012)

OP: should specify the league itself or the universe.
Also should specify DCAU because people tend to miss it.


AnimeMasterZinc said:


> *The JLU has planet busters.*
> The HST has Island busters.
> 
> *The JLU has characters with Light speed reaction and movement.*
> ...





JLU = DCAU =/= Comics.
So no, they don't have any of those things.

And unless I'm forgetting some major feat, their destructive capacity tends to peak at about city level.

EDIT: Excluding Amazo of course.


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 27, 2012)

The Flash travelled from the earth to the sun in under a min and GL goes from galaxy to galaxy casually yes they do have those speed feats.


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## Huntring (Nov 27, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> OP: should specify the league itself or the universe.
> Also should specify DCAU because people tend to miss it.
> 
> 
> ...



Comics are far higher then just light speed and planet level.


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## feebas_factor (Nov 27, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Comics are far higher then just light speed and planet level.



True. But DCAU is also generally much lower (at least DCwise).


Danger Doom said:


> The Flash travelled from the earth to the sun in under a min and GL goes from galaxy to galaxy casually yes they do have those speed feats.





Yet reaching 40% lightspeed caused him to nearly be sucked into the speed force?

Akainu

It was my understanding their usual speed was accepted as massively hypersonic, mach 100-200 or so.


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## Lord Raizen (Nov 27, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> OP: should specify the league itself or the universe.
> Also should specify DCAU because people tend to miss it.
> 
> 
> ...



^ This right here.

People should pay a little more attention to the scenarios and quit droppin one liners. The outcome varies between scenarios.


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## NemesisQ (Nov 27, 2012)

*scenario2)* what does the bijuu have for powerscaling vs the JL... Superman can solo the juubi by feats alone (none) and all other tailed beasts will easily be beat and or tammed by mindfuc*...


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 27, 2012)

Technically, the Justice League Unlimited is the smaller one seen in the time of Batman Beyond. And if its supposed to be the league in Unlimited, they never had AMAZO as a member. Their strongest member is the Flash.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 27, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> And unless I'm forgetting some major feat, their destructive capacity tends to peak at about city level.
> 
> EDIT: Excluding Amazo of course.



Vandal Savage created a device that gave him gravity manipulating powers, and he rearranged the solar system with it when he killed the Justice League.

Oh, and a handful of Green Lanterns can apparently destroy half a planet by using all the energy of their rings at once.

And there's planet destroying technology too. Mongul's doomsday laser and the Thanagarian hyperspace thing being the first that come to mind.

And the Dark Heart is confirmed to have eaten at least one planet.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 27, 2012)

The vandal savage one would kill them too, so that's out.
We've never seen the lanterns do that so we can't be sure how exactly it would work out. That's like Cell being a solar system buster.
The Hyper Space one would work, after a lot of setup mind you.


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## Whats_Out_The_ Bag (Nov 27, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> OP: should specify the league itself or the universe.
> Also should specify DCAU because people tend to miss it.



Yeah, I said planet busters. Which is about the max for JLU characters, did I go into the level of what the true JL can do? 



> JLU = DCAU =/= Comics.
> So no, they don't have any of those things.


I was going to relate to you, but  now i'm questioning did you even watch the justice league series? 




> And unless I'm forgetting some major feat, their destructive capacity tends to peak at about city level.



Now I was just like you until i recently rewatched the first season of JL then JLU. After watching that again you will come to agree with me on what these guys can do.

First lets get on the planet  busters. I'll pick 2 as two only come to mind, yet one of them should give you a hint on other characters who've fought him can do.

1) Amazo: I'm happy that you remember him. As he was doing some lightspeed movement, when he was traveling though space. Then he blows up that planet on his to earth. 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA8QGePP-NM[/YOUTUBE]

2) John aka GL (Green Lantern ): On one episode he was on trail because he destroyed a planet. (Hopefully you remember this) He clearly didn't kill all of those people, nor did he destroy the planet; but the point i'm making is how people reacted in this episode. GL acted as if he sent off that much power to destroy the planet. I don't know about you, but if i know i can't dish off that much fire power, why the hell would i feel sad; or even sit there waiting to be killed. Even his fellow GL thought he did it. Why would they have even thought something like that could happen if he didn't have that type of fire power. 

*Light Speed
*


Amazo is clearly one of those FTL characters lets continue on. 

GL is someone who can travel though space extremely fast and could track superman and Manhunter when they were abducted. He clearly didn't catch up to them by going hypersonic speed. Other than that, their was a time when he created a path for flash to travel on to the sun. I forget how long they had do get there but flash moved at light speed to get there, seeing how flash didn't out run the rings beam, it's clearly shooting at Light speed.

Flash is a character who can go light speed in an instant, which during JLU he went faster than light speed. when fighting Brainiac and Lex Luthor. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53OyPYa7SEI[/YOUTUBE]


I'm really not going to list any more characters, as those 3 can solo the HST.


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## Huntring (Nov 27, 2012)

Wait, are people seriously arguing for the HST?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 27, 2012)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> The vandal savage one would kill them too, so that's out.



Savage can use it without killing himself, and that's good enough for a win.



> We've never seen the lanterns do that so we can't be sure how exactly it would work out. That's like Cell being a solar system buster.



Unlike Cell, there's no reason to believe it's hyperbole, and they thought it had a chance of taking out Amazo.



> The Hyper Space one would work, after a lot of setup mind you.



Mongul's interstellar death ray doesn't really need any prep.

As for Green Lantern being able to destroy a planet by himself, it's stated in the episode that he caused a chain reaction that destroyed the planet. It was never indicated that any Green Lantern could destroy a planet with brute force. It's a moot point anyway since he didn't actually destroy the planet and was just going by what he was told.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 27, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Savage can use it without killing himself, and that's good enough for a win.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just because they thought they had a chance doesn't mean they did. They could have simply meant that it would kill half the people on earth. And while it would certainly give them a victory here, the GL corps aren't all league members. Neither is Vandal Savage, but if he was, then they could win.

Mind you, i'm not saying the League loses. Flash, Superman, Super Girl, and Green lantern are powerful assets here.
I don't remember anything about Mongol's weapon, so I can't say for that, but again, not a league member


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## feebas_factor (Nov 27, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Vandal Savage created a device that game him gravity manipulating powers, and he rearranged the solar system with it when he killed the Justice League.
> 
> Oh, and a handful of Green Lanterns can apparently destroy half a planet by using all the energy of their rings at once.
> 
> ...


It's true that DCAU alien tech is pretty damn potent. I definitely wouldn't argue against them for scen 3, as if Amazo wasn't enough already. 


AnimeMasterZinc said:


> Yeah, I said planet busters. Which is about the max for JLU characters, did I go into the level of what the true JL can do?
> 
> 
> I was going to relate to you, but  now i'm questioning did you even watch the justice league series?
> ...



You raise some fair points. Again, I would definitely never argue scenario three, especially with all the planet-level alien tech in JLU.

However you have some facts mistaken in your next point, which refers to two episodes that I do actually remember quite well:



> GL is someone who can travel though space extremely fast and could track superman and Manhunter when they were abducted. He clearly didn't catch up to them by going hypersonic speed. Other than that, their was a time when he created a path for flash to travel on to the sun. I forget how long they had do get there but flash moved at light speed to get there, seeing how flash didn't out run the rings beam, it's clearly shooting at Light speed.
> 
> *Flash is a character who can go light speed in an instant, which during JLU he went faster than light speed. when fighting Brainiac and Lex Luthor. *
> 
> ...



[YOUTUBE]8xsJh0VBH8A[/YOUTUBE]

37:35 onwards.

They state specifically that the run is taking 7 and a half minutes, which is greater than the time it takes light to reach earth. And The Flash still required a massive speedboost from GL, and even then he took _several minutes_ of running to reach top speed.

As for the bolded, I don't believe lightspeed was ever actually mentionned during the Lutheriac fight, so where in the world are you getting that claim from...?

[EDIT: Correction, light takes 8.3 minutes to reach the earth. The implication though was that they needed to reach near-light-speed.]


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## Tom Servo (Nov 27, 2012)

AnimeMasterZinc said:


> GL is someone who can travel though space extremely fast and could track superman and Manhunter when they were abducted. He clearly didn't catch up to them by going hypersonic speed. *Other than that, their was a time when he created a path for flash to travel on to the sun. I forget how long they had do get there but flash moved at light speed to get there, seeing how flash didn't out run the rings beam, it's clearly shooting at Light speed.*



it was 7 minutes and 30 seconds according to John Stewart

which would make that running speed *Mach 978,526 (743,680,000 Mph)*

which would put his running speed at *x1.11 FTL*

as for the GL planet busting one, i doubt he's a planet buster i mean later in JLU it was established that several dozen GL's at full power could only destroy half a planet


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 27, 2012)

If they were directly on earth. 
Plus he had to accelerate so it wasn't one fluid speed (incidentally, wouldn't that make his top speed even faster?)
The HST gets crushed in the final scenario, no question.


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 27, 2012)

Flash via Lex Luther body switch confirm he holds back his max speed and destructive output on purpose.


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## Ockap1812 (Nov 27, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Wait, are people seriously arguing for the HST?



I don't get this board... Why the hell do you all hate the HST and desperately want to see them killed, yet you're on an HST forum... why not just go to MVC or Anime vice or something else if you all hate anything HST so much?


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## Tom Servo (Nov 27, 2012)

Ockap1812 said:


> I don't get this board... Why the hell do you all hate the HST and desperately want to see them killed, yet you're on an HST forum... why not just go to MVC or Anime vice or something else if you all hate anything HST so much?



its not that we hate them but they really are outmatched against a verse with lightspeed feats, planet busting death rays and an omnipotent android


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## Huntring (Nov 27, 2012)

Ockap1812 said:


> I don't get this board... Why the hell do you all hate the HST and desperately want to see them killed, yet you're on an HST forum... why not just go to MVC or Anime vice or something else if you all hate anything HST so much?



Who are you again?


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## feebas_factor (Nov 27, 2012)

To be honest the speed issue is not hugely relevant since, regardless of whether they're massively hypersonic or relativistic, they still outspeed the HST by miles. I'm more interested in the destructive capacity (of the league of course, obviously the large-scale tech can reach absurdly powerful levels).

Character statements and implications about planet-busting aside, is there an explicit destructive feat above city level for an actual JLU member?

As a side note, the wiki claims DCAU JLU members have multi-city-block-busting destructive capacity...

Akainu
Akainu

Probably requires some updating.


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## Fujita (Nov 27, 2012)

Ockap1812 said:


> I don't get this board... Why the hell do you all hate the HST and desperately want to see them killed, yet you're on an HST forum... why not just go to *MVC* or Anime vice or something else if you all hate anything HST so much?



Because MVC loves Bleach.


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## Tacocat (Nov 27, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> To be honest the speed issue is not hugely relevant since, regardless of whether they're massively hypersonic or relativistic, they still outspeed the HST by miles. I'm more interested in the destructive capacity (of the league of course, obviously the large-scale tech can reach absurdly powerful levels).
> 
> Character statements and implications about planet-busting aside, is there an explicit destructive feat above city level for an actual JLU member?
> 
> ...


Everything on the wiki requires updating  Do Obito and Tobi still have separate profiles?


Ockap1812 said:


> I don't get this board... Why the hell do you all hate the HST and desperately want to see them killed, yet you're on an HST forum... why not just go to MVC or Anime vice or something else if you all hate anything HST so much?


We don't really hate the HST...except for Bleach. Naruto has a few redeeming qualities, and One Piece is actually good. They're just very overestimated.


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## Huntring (Nov 27, 2012)

Fujita said:


> Because MVC loves Bleach.



It also loves OP and Naruto.

OP- Luffy can beat Marvel Thor, Whitebeard world busts, FTL, some other shit I forgot.

Naruto- Genius's Naruto, self explantory in itself.

Animevice also wanks the HST (especially Bleach).


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## Huntring (Nov 27, 2012)

SuperTacocat said:


> Everything on the wiki requires updating  Do Obito and Tobi still have separate profiles?



Likely because profiles are still in the process of being moved from the old wiki to the new one.

Don't expect updates to much.


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## Tom Servo (Nov 27, 2012)

Huntring said:


> It also loves OP and Naruto.
> 
> OP- Luffy can beat Marvel Thor, Whitebeard world busts, FTL, some other shit I forgot.
> 
> ...



lol i recently heard a claim from the MVC that bleach is massively hypersonic because of Ulquiorra throwing LDR


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 27, 2012)

I told you watch tower solos it can shot a massive beam from orbit creating a Grand Canyon type of trench.


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## feebas_factor (Nov 27, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> I told you watch tower solos it can shot a massive beam from orbit creating a Grand Canyon type of trench.



[YOUTUBE]PynLmfxbETw[/YOUTUBE]

6:20 "A gun with the punch of a small nuclear weapon"... You think that's even gonna tickle a Bijuu?  Small nukes are megatons at best.

Don't get me wrong though, by the sounds of this thread there's plenty of large-scale weapons that could.

EDIT: I see you lurking Dawg. 
Would you like to talk about vibrations.


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 27, 2012)

When a small nuke can vaporize rock at the depth that weapon can casually let me know .


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## feebas_factor (Nov 27, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> When a small nuke can vaporize rock at the depth that weapon can casually let me know .



Concentrated, they might well be able to. I can get some calcers on it for exact numbers if you'd really like.


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 27, 2012)

Didn't know you knew nuclear physicists .


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 27, 2012)

Why would we assume the rock is being vaporized when we can see it being physically uprooted?


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 28, 2012)

Because it was a trench and the uproot you saw is no where near justify that depth and also it was a clean cut indicating it was glassed as well.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 28, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Because it was a trench and the uproot you saw is no where near justify that depth and also it was a clean cut indicating it was glassed as well.



If there was vaporization involved the trench would be glowing from the heat, and the edges would be melted, not to mention there would be clouds of superheated vapor instead of dust.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 28, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Wait, are people seriously arguing for the HST?



feeblefactor and hadonmaru just ignore everything they post 



Ockap1812 said:


> I don't get this board... Why the hell do you all hate the HST and desperately want to see them killed, yet you're on an HST forum... why not just go to MVC or Anime vice or something else if you all hate anything HST so much?



..are you seriously suggesting that they'd win



Huntring said:


> Who are you again?



nobody important just another Vector prime dupe


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 28, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> feeblefactor and hadonmaru just ignore everything they post


If you'd actually read what I wrote, you'd realize I never said the HST could win against the whole verse.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 28, 2012)

yes hadon I'm aware of that


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## Lord Raizen (Nov 28, 2012)

If the thread set up is standard then the JLA doesn't have access to thier watchtower or any other supertech.

And if it's only the Justice League team being used in Scenario 1, then I don't see how they're going to win.

Without people like Amazo, Mzxy, New Gods etc, they aren't taking down the high/top tiers of the HST.

People are making a lot of outlandish assumptions in this thread.


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## sonic546 (Nov 28, 2012)

Amazo solos.  Really, that's all that needs to be said.



Ockap1812 said:


> I don't get this board... Why the hell do you all hate the HST and desperately want to see them killed, yet you're on an HST forum... why not just go to MVC or Anime vice or something else if you all hate anything HST so much?



Well first off, not everyone here hates the HST.  Many posters are quite fond of One Piece, for example.

Secondly, they make a good testing ground for new characters and verses that posters find, allowing us to get an idea of how powerful they are.

Thirdly, MvC and Animevice wank the living hell out of the HST.

TLDR: You're an idiot and you should stop bitching about things you don't understand.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 28, 2012)

someone rep sonic for me the system wont let me and after a quality post like that he fucking deserves some rep


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## Heavenly King (Nov 28, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> someone rep sonic for me the system wont let me and after a quality post like that he fucking deserves some rep



already on it


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 28, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> If there was vaporization involved the trench would be glowing from the heat, and the edges would be melted, not to mention there would be clouds of superheated vapor instead of dust.



It destroyed the rock to create the trench another prove of this is when they Used it on Cadimus a secret underground base several stories below. If it was physically uprooted dont you think there will be debris on both side of the trench which there is not.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 28, 2012)

Ockap1812 said:


> I don't get this board... Why the hell do you all hate the HST and desperately want to see them killed, yet you're on an HST forum... why not just go to MVC or Anime vice or something else if you all hate anything HST so much?


Very few people here "hate" the HST. Whilst most people don't like bleach, one piece is mainly liked here, as is part one naruto, and this is a part one naruto forum, based on the main cover banner.


godzillafan430 said:


> lol i recently heard a claim from the MVC that bleach is massively hypersonic because of Ulquiorra throwing LDR


Actually, there isn't anything wrong with the calculation itself as far as I can see, it's more that the speculative scaling of las notches it is based off is highly inconsistent with all the other million on-panel scaling of las notches we have done here. Plus the fact that, if true, it would be an outlier.


godzillafan430 said:


> it was 7 minutes and 30 seconds according to John Stewart
> 
> which would make that running speed *Mach 978,526 (743,680,000 Mph)*
> 
> ...


That could still be planet level, depending on the conditions. 60 GLs who can collectively generate half the GBE of the earth would still be able to bust mercury individually.


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## Radical Edward (Nov 28, 2012)

Lord Raizen said:


> In this first scenario, are you refering to Justice League Unlimited as a series' or just the team?



scenario 1 It's  Justice League Unlimited as in just the whole team, the members they added on from the original 7 not the entire series.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb6tDzGvCXE[/YOUTUBE]

2:42 to 2:48

Plus all the other heroes you see later on.


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## Radical Edward (Nov 28, 2012)

NemesisQ said:


> *scenario2)* what does the bijuu have for powerscaling vs the JL... Superman can solo the juubi by feats alone (none) and all other tailed beasts will easily be beat and or tammed by mindfuc*...



Naruto was able to to bust some mountains in his Biju Mode,


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## Emperor Joker (Nov 28, 2012)

even assuming the Satellite death beam wouldn't work, there's nothing stopping Amazo from straight up sending them all to another dimension via BFR


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 28, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> That could still be planet level, depending on the conditions. 60 GLs who can collectively generate half the GBE of the earth would still be able to bust mercury individually.



That's incredibly speculative though, and considering what we've seen from John, they aren't even city level individually.


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## Linkdarkside (Nov 28, 2012)

Radical Edward said:


> Naruto was able to to bust some mountains in his Biju Mode,


if i remember rigth he counter those blast ,he did not create it.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 28, 2012)

Scenario 1 and 2: HST based on current memory
Scenario 3 goes to JLU if everything is included such as

That one device capable of melting the ice caps and flooding the world
Amazo
The Manhunter with most if not full Oa power
Mongol claimed to have a planet busting gun which he used to threaten people with into fighting for him or he'd blow their planets up
A device that could hide a whole planet and make people think it was destroyed
etc

Mongol's claim is iffy since Hawkgirl blasted a beam back into the cannon with her mace and the explosion was'nt anywhere near as powerful as it should, offcourse it could require multiple shots. How many is hard to say but it's an interstellar death ray so he could do it from safe distance.



> As for Green Lantern being able to destroy a planet by himself, it's stated in the episode that he caused a chain reaction that destroyed the planet. It was never indicated that any Green Lantern could destroy a planet with brute force. It's a moot point anyway since he didn't actually destroy the planet and was just going by what he was told



Trial episode?That one was revealed fake, moon was still in orbit and that tipped Superman and MM off the planet was'nt destroyed, it was an illusion. If there's some other episode, then ignore this part of my post.

Still there are plenty of big things that would stomp HST in DCAU. Also very few HST characters can survive the heat of a nuke, Yamamoto and few others but that's a small amount. Unless heat resistance feats are given at that level. 

Has'nt Flash phased through on an atomic level once?Probably remembering wrong but will eventually catch upto that episode on my rewatch.



> Character statements and implications about planet-busting aside, is there an explicit destructive feat above city level for an actual JLU member?



Let's ignore all character statements for HST too then to make this fair. Or are you saying you're accepting them but just curious?The latter is an acceptable statement, the other is a hilarious double standard since HST relies on statements at times too.


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 28, 2012)

The Justice Guild had a reality warper as well that mutated kid .


Also the can survive the heat of the nuke but can they handle nuclear radiation which Capt Atom can generate as well akin with other type of radiation like mimic the suns other deadly radiations as he demonstrated to Supes.


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## willyvereb (Nov 28, 2012)

@Tranquil Fury: Yes, the Flash can use its vibration for molecular level dismantelement.
Remember how Flash taped into the speedforce and purged Brainiac-Luthor from the nanomachines?
His "vibrations" can also produce some sort of chain-reaction to make things explode.
I don't really think the HST has much chance against him.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 28, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> It destroyed the rock to create the trench another prove of this is when they Used it on Cadimus a secret underground base several stories below. If it was physically uprooted dont you think there will be debris on both side of the trench which there is not.



The fact remains that there are no signs of extreme heat in either use of the binary fusion cannon, so there's no basis for assuming vaporization. Pulverization perhaps, but not vaporization.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 28, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> @Tranquil Fury: Yes, the Flash can use its vibration for molecular level dismantelement.
> Remember how Flash taped into the speedforce and purged Brainiac-Luthor from the nanomachines?
> His "vibrations" can also produce some sort of chain-reaction to make things explode.
> I don't really think the HST has much chance against him.



Lex in Flash's body also did the whole "explode shit via vibrations" thing too


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 28, 2012)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> That's incredibly speculative though, and considering what we've seen from John, they aren't even city level individually.



Bear in mind I haven't actually seen the said feat, I'm just going on what people have been saying. And as you said, it could be an outlier, or they have some way of amplifying their powers by working together or something. Does anyone have a video?


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## KaiserWombat (Nov 28, 2012)

Relevant to this thread.


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## Radical Edward (Nov 28, 2012)

Linkdarkside said:


> if i remember rigth he counter those blast ,he did not create it.




Naruto in his Full Biju Mode You can see him countering 4 Biju Blast with one.




Here we can see five different mountains being destroyed, one for each Biju Blast. 



So Naruto did counter them yes


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 28, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Still there are plenty of big things that would stomp HST in DCAU. Also very few HST characters can survive the heat of a nuke, Yamamoto and few others but that's a small amount. Unless heat resistance feats are given at that level.



According to , kinetic impacts should actually release _more_ heat energy than nukes. 





> Of course not all of a meteorite's energy is used to crater, in fact some of it is used to produce a huge shock wave, *and most is lost as latent heat* (Melosh, 1985).


I found the original article it cites, BTW, if anyone wants to try to make sense of it (I havn't go the cahnce to look at it yet, BTW, so sorry of there's any inconsistencies.)



Just a thought, I haven't researched too deeply into this.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 28, 2012)

five exhausted on the last dregs of their energy reserves massing an all out attack against Dr Fate was said to be more than enough to shatter half the planet- even overwhelm the guys defenses

Fate is the guy who in the back story of his first ever Timverse appearance single handedly took out an eldrich abomination who's student was casually reality warping and pwning Superman like he was nothing -  he took Karkul out later despite being injured when clark was utterly at his mercy 

the guy made Kryptonians who could ram their bodies into city/small island busting asteroids and survive re-entry while having their energies drained and actively fighting a monstrous class 100 - look like gnats and John Stewart on the last dregs of his power with back up could have killed him with a suicide attack

any one claiming GL's can't at the very least country bust when they were down dregs and still made a guy like Fate back the fuck down has never seen the entirety of the stuff that is canon to JLU

Hell going by the Promethian episode and Kara's first appearance in STAS only the highest top tiers can manage to put down the Kryptonians and they aren't even the strongest

Diana could go toe to toe with Whitebeard for awhile and while she'd lose her pain threshhold and damage soak is insane enough that she'd be able to weaken him considerably before doing so..and again she's going to have the back up of guys like John and Fate who are gonna be running wild raping everything in sight


----------



## KaiserWombat (Nov 28, 2012)

More than five were present, at least a dozen GLs were still alive.

But otherwise, IWD makes a good point.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 28, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> More than five were present, at least a dozen GLs were still alive.
> 
> But otherwise, IWD makes a good point.



in the room? looked like only a half dozen of them at most

in any case my point was more a refreshed GL putting out enough force to glass cities more than once shouldn't be a problem at all 

and all the other stuff-


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 28, 2012)

There were fourteen Green Lanterns.

[YOUTUBE]oygvYois-rQ[/YOUTUBE]

20:53


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 28, 2012)

14 exhausted GL's = planet buster?

one should be able to kill anything short of a bijuu just fine


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 28, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> 14 exhausted GL's = planet buster?
> 
> one should be able to kill anything short of a bijuu just fine



...Implying a bijuu can tank upwards of 4 zettatons


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 28, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> ...Implying a bijuu can tank upwards of 4 zettatons


all the hype and EoS in the world won't let HST tank that


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 28, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> ...Implying a bijuu can tank upwards of 4 zettatons



nope just imply a Bijuu might be able to survive a city buster

if John goes above that though

edit- come to think of it if they expected to meet resistance from Nelson then they might have expected his defenses to take most of their attack..after it got overwhelmed what was left would wreck the earth..

maybe more than partial world sundering then?


----------



## Huey Freeman (Nov 28, 2012)

Well we have Captain Atom for bijuu. You know the guy who can absorb energy .

Hell even the Atom has this whose stopping the guy from giving them each a heart attack .


----------



## Omnirix (Nov 28, 2012)

There's also the mysterious Hand who was holding the universe at its' palm from the beginning of time itself during the JLU episode "Once and Future Thing". 

*Spoiler*: __ 








Chronos himself can probably solo via time travel. 

IIRC the Anti-Monitor was referenced somewhere too. 

But in any case, unless HST also displayed universal power, they will get creamed completely against JLU.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Nov 28, 2012)

That hand is the presence  .


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 28, 2012)

It's been either the Presence, the Anti-Monitor, the Spectre, or several other people due to timeline fuckups


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 28, 2012)

It's Lobo.

All of Chronos' history alteration turned him into God.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Nov 28, 2012)

Well the only other hand in DC in that form with a spiral is the Primal Monitor and we have lil to no knowledge on it in the comics. Also if you watched te episode again right before the snatch Chronos you see the full overview of the being and it looked exactly like the Presence.


----------



## LazyWaka (Nov 28, 2012)




----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 28, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> It's Lobo.
> 
> All of Chronos' history alteration turned him into God.



the funny part is knowing Lobo that more or less could happen


----------



## feebas_factor (Nov 28, 2012)

So:  


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 29, 2012)

smells like bullshit to me to low yield


----------



## mcdave (Nov 29, 2012)

^ The scale is not that Big.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 29, 2012)

j'onn said it had the punch of a small nuclear weapon, whats that like? a few megatons. Of course, Jonn could be wrong.


----------



## willyvereb (Nov 29, 2012)

The "small nuclear weapon" can range anywhere from 18 tons to a few kilotons of TNT equivalent.
Nukes with a few megatons of yield are serious strategic warheads.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Nov 29, 2012)

Episode 12-13: Give us a device that can shield a city, Grog's mind control device which works in vicinity(this one would work better if it was used by someone with the reactions to not get blitzed) and Green Lantern keeping up with missiles travelling to Africa in short time.

MM phasing through a missile to deactivate the warhead makes me think he could just phase through some characters to rip their heart or brains out.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 29, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> The "small nuclear weapon" can range anywhere from 18 tons to a few kilotons of TNT equivalent.
> Nukes with a few megatons of yield are serious strategic warheads.



Which kind of shows that the DCAU military are better than our current one. Unless Jo'nn meant the power is the same as small nuclear weapons, as opposed to energy.


----------



## willyvereb (Nov 29, 2012)

That might be it.
I remember a certain nuke that was supposed to destroy an island.
It was when Superman fought Doomsday in a volcano or something.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Nov 29, 2012)

That nuke was design to kill Superman so it was more of a tactical nuke and it wasn't an island it was a small nation.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2012)

it was also a kryptonite nuke IIRC

meant to kill DD & Supes

we don't really know how much of the island would've been destroyed


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Nov 29, 2012)

Well Flash just sent himself, MM, GL and Hawkgirl to another universe by vibrating to the frequency of that universe while trying to absorb a nuke in episode 16. Speaking of nukes there's those anti-man nukes that can be spread across the planet though that's a double edged sword.

Moving onto episode 17


----------



## feebas_factor (Nov 29, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> *Well Flash just sent himself, MM, GL and Hawkgirl to another universe by vibrating to the frequency of that universe* while trying to absorb a nuke in episode 16. Speaking of nukes there's those anti-man nukes that can be spread across the planet though that's a double edged sword.



So no waiting it out in their pocket dimensions for Tobi and Blueno. 
Here's the feat by the way:
[YOUTUBE]n0Q-hHrhU0Y[/YOUTUBE]



1:20 onwards. Did he... absorb the blast per se? Or just held it off long enough to vibrate through dimensions? Eh, impressive either way, looks to be at least a cityblock in yield.

A couple of other yield calcs:



These two are heavy hitters, and they pretty consistently come in at low-city level DC and durability. Enough to tear through mid-tiers and some high-tiers with ease, so they obviously wipe out like 90% of the verses.

But against top tiers it becomes a challenge to do anything even with that level of power. You gotta have stradgedy. 

Also an old thread:  reminds me that Supes is no fan of lightning.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Nov 29, 2012)

The explaination is that while trying to absorb it the blast/energy made him vibrate to the frequency of that Earth, described as a dimensional tear so most likely he opened a portal due to the blast making him vibrate. Basically DCAU Flash can vibrate at dimensional frequencies like Crisis on Two Earths Flash. With some guidance on where he has to go from someone like Batman, Lex, Brainiac etc he could do it.

Offcourse could be wrong but that's what I got. Onto episode 17 of my rewatch.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Nov 29, 2012)

Well episode 17 gives a reality warper on either city to planetary scale. I say planetary because the word "world" is used more than once.

Actually the multiverse concept will cause trouble for HST quite a lot.


----------



## feebas_factor (Nov 29, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Well episode 17 gives a reality warper on either city to planetary scale. I say planetary because the word "world" is used more than once.
> 
> Actually the multiverse concept will cause trouble for HST quite a lot.



I think HST probably gave up on trying to fight the entire JLU universe a long time ago. Even country-level Juubi ain't got shit on planet-busting tech. 

League members only is probably more their level. Maybe minus the Bijuu to even it out. Also:


Tranquil Fury said:


> MM phasing through a missile to deactivate the warhead makes me think he could just phase through some characters to rip their heart or brains out.



Clever. Brutal but effective. 
This would actually be quite a smart way of dealing with overly durable armoured characters (Raikage, Susanoos, Bleach top-tiers, etc.), though it wouldn't work on Logias and the like.

Seems like JLU would generally do quite well with knowledge here, so they can know when to use tactics like this and avoid getting into strategically poor match-ups (Supes vs. Enel, Flash vs. Yama , etc.) and hit where it hurts most instead.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Nov 29, 2012)

Not saying he phases through everything but he can use it on regular physicals, in an all out match he can sneak up from the ground and do it.


----------



## Tom Servo (Nov 29, 2012)

how far would superman go on his own i wonder


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 29, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> The "small nuclear weapon" can range anywhere from 18 tons to a few kilotons of TNT equivalent.
> Nukes with a few megatons of yield are serious strategic warheads.



which most certainly wouldn't do that that energy beam did, so i guess J'onn was wrong.


----------



## feebas_factor (Nov 30, 2012)

Just scoping around to see if there's any more good feats/calcs to dig up.

Flash's famous final attack against Lutheriac in the second episode of "Divided We Fall" can supposedly be calced at around 130 megatons, although apparently it'll suck him into the speedforce if he ever uses it again. So he can use that to OHKO pretty much anything not intangible/a Bijuu, though he'll be out of commission afterwards (hence it might not be the ideal strategy initially).

Superman has a nice heat vision feat here from his animated series (when he was being controlled by Darkseid), blowing up a decently sized alien fortress.

At least cityblock, probably higher. And this is the nuke that was intended to kill Doomsday (18:30 onwards). Though again, it was laced with kryptonite.
[YOUTUBE]BSfjF246TR4[/YOUTUBE]
As a side note: Superman gives no shits above lava. 


godzillafan430 said:


> how far would superman go on his own i wonder


Given his speed advantage, city-level DC/durability and variety of attacks: pretty damn far. 

He'll likely tear through the vast majority of mid and even high tiers; probably give top tiers a solid run for their money too. But plenty of top tiers still have superior durability and the DC to KO him though, and they can also exploit some of his weaknesses (case in point: Enel zaps him).


Tranquil Fury said:


> Not saying he phases through everything but he can use it on regular physicals, in an all out match he can sneak up from the ground and do it.


Sounds plenty viable under certain circumstances. JLU with tactics like that (and the knowledge to use them) are pretty damn lethal. 


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> smells like bullshit to me to low yield


Go comment on it then!


----------



## vanhellsing (Nov 30, 2012)

I can?t still belive some people thinks that the HST has a chance of giving a decent fight


----------



## Ulti (Nov 30, 2012)

This thread reminds me of when Raigen tried to argue Sakura from Naruto could take DCAU Superman.


----------



## willyvereb (Nov 30, 2012)

Well, this one's a little better.
Albeit the emphasis is on the "little".


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Nov 30, 2012)

Indeed. Also Morgan could alter an entire city to how she chose and noted that with the stone she could maintain it forever, Etrigan stated she could send the world to purgatory with it. 

Way too many planetary stuff in this verse


----------



## feebas_factor (Nov 30, 2012)

vanhellsing said:


> I can?t still belive some people thinks that the HST has a chance of giving a decent fight





The Penetrator said:


> This thread reminds me of when Raigen tried to argue Sakura from Naruto could take DCAU Superman.



Quality one-liner posts there guys. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> Indeed. Also Morgan could alter an entire city to how she chose and noted that with the stone she could maintain it forever, Etrigan stated she could send the world to purgatory with it.
> 
> Way too many planetary stuff in this verse



Well scenario three is definitely silly. 

I really don't believe the first two are though. All the explicit feats and calcs listed throughout this thread (for the Justice League members themselves, I mean) fall between cityblock and city-level; by yields, they're significantly below HST top tiers, who also have a numbers advantage on top of that.

I'm not saying that automatically means the Justice League loses of course, especially if they have knowledge and employ some of the creative tactics suggested so far. 

But one-liners aside, it's hardly a stomp either. Unless I've misunderstood the OP and "JLU" is supposed to refer to the entire verse in all three scenarios.


*Spoiler*: __ 



And in scenario 1, what exactly are the League Members alone supposed to do to a fucking country-level complete Juubi?


----------



## willyvereb (Nov 30, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> And in scenario 1, what exactly are the League Members alone supposed to do to a fucking country-level complete Juubi?


They have the Flash with relativistic speed and molecule-destroying vibrations.


----------



## Narcissus (Nov 30, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> This thread reminds me of when Raigen tried to argue Sakura from Naruto could take DCAU Superman.


Oh Raigen, the memories are hilarious in hindsight. 


Tranquil Fury said:


> Indeed. Also Morgan could alter an entire city to how she chose and noted that with the stone she could maintain it forever, Etrigan stated she could send the world to purgatory with it.
> 
> Way too many planetary stuff in this verse



And her son did cast a planetary spell with the Amulet.

I take it that it's been acknowledged that the HST gets stomped against the JLU-verse?


----------



## feebas_factor (Nov 30, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> I take it that it's been acknowledged that the HST gets stomped against the *JLU-verse?*



Jeez, even I would easily concede that.
I feel like I've been debating at cross-purposes this whole time now. 



willyvereb said:


> They have the Flash with relativistic speed and molecule-destroying vibrations.



DC of 130 megatons for the former IIRC. That won't cut it.
And as for the latter, you said it yourself that vibrations don't _entirely_ bypass durability, remember? 


willyvereb said:


> Actually, vibrations are just a more energy-efficient way to break things.
> So it doesn't ignore durability altogether. Just damn near useless.





willyvereb said:


> As for physical attacks bypassing the durability...it's pretty much impossible.
> They could be more energy-effective/concentrated than a regular destructive attack but they still work by the rules of energy transfer.



But I could always start a Juubi vs. DCAU Flash thread if you'd like.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 30, 2012)

> Juubi vs. DCAU Flash


feebas, control yourself  


anyway, if those zettaton DCAU GLs are legit, then gg


----------



## feebas_factor (Nov 30, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> feebas, control yourself





Nah, I wouldn't. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Probably.





Fluttershy said:


> anyway, if those zettaton DCAU GLs are legit, then gg



Eh, that's fair. Just haven't seen any explicit feats that can be calced yet.

And I was strongly under the impression that was hype anyway (like WB has the power to destroy the world, etc.), especially compared to how ridiculously inconsistant it would be with all the many quantifiable, explicit feats listed above.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Nov 30, 2012)

Juubi gets atomize .


----------



## Heavenly King (Nov 30, 2012)

Theirs a God that wants to talk with the HST


----------



## mcdave (Nov 30, 2012)

^ I think we can conclude that in comparsion to him standing 10 centimeter Groundelevations are Flashs Kryptonite 

Honestly it's only a Question how hard HST gets stomped  and if all the 3 Planets are Destroyed in milliseconds or Hours from Orbit :Y


----------



## willyvereb (Nov 30, 2012)

> DC of 130 megatons for the former IIRC. That won't cut it.
> And as for the latter, you said it yourself that vibrations don't _entirely_ bypass durability, remember?


Well, yeah.
Except this sort of "vibration" directly excites the molecules.
It's a shy away from manipulating the molecules.
Regular durability won't do much here.
Even if we say that one attack won't bring down the Juubi, it's only the matter of time.
DCAU Flash can run circles around the Juubi.
So does Supes or anyone at his level.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 30, 2012)

Plus, if they get the watchtower, theres not much most the HST can do to them while they are in space.


----------



## Heavenly King (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't know if anyone said or post this. The Justice League can all power up and blast at the juubi like they did to Amazo


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 30, 2012)

feeblefactors calc is bullshit...given what the reactor canon did in ther episode where Luthor hacked it to frame the JLU

all I see is attempted HST wank and down playing of the timverse this sets a very disturbing and bad precedent as it essentially proves fantards are slowly gaining headway and traction on this forum

we need to start fighting back harder, meaner


----------



## KaiserWombat (Nov 30, 2012)

...it's really not bullshit in relation to the actual feat portrayed, IWD (feebas was honestly rather generous, assuming melting took place despite no correlation from visuals _at all_), and try not to sensationalise this as some major conspiracy by feebas to build up some horde of 'fanboys' and *RUIN THE OBD FOREVER OMFG!!11!!1*

Christ, I'll scale whatever this 'reactor cannon' feat is if you want.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 30, 2012)

> given what the reactor canon did in ther episode where Luthor hacked it to frame the JLU


come to think of it - that's another feat for Eye in the Sky

someone should calc that too

IIRC it wrecked a city (?)


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 30, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> feeblefactors calc is bullshit...given what the reactor canon did in ther episode where Luthor hacked it to frame the JLU



Are you serious?

If anything the calc results are far too _high_ to fit the damage done when Luthor fired it. Buildings at most a few hundred meters away from ground zero were still standing after the blast. That doesn't look like more than a few kilotons of energy, to be honest.

A weapon well into the megaton range would have wiped out that entire city.

The showing in Dark Heart is _much_ more impressive than Luthor destroying Cadmus headquarters.


----------



## cnorwood (Nov 30, 2012)

is AMAZO still in this?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 30, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> IIRC it wrecked a city (?)





Eldritch Sukima said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> If anything the calc results are far too _high_ to fit the damage done when Luthor fired it. Buildings at most a few hundred meters away from ground zero were still standing after the blast. That doesn't look like more than a few kilotons of energy, to be honest.
> 
> ...


alright .. so it didn't wreck a city

meh


they sure made a big deal of it


----------



## Huey Freeman (Nov 30, 2012)

It's a death ray not a bloody nuke when Luthor fired it e was aiming for Cadmus underground HQ. 

Sigh


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> It's a death ray not a bloody nuke when Luthor fired it e was aiming for Cadmus underground HQ.
> 
> Sigh



Really doesn't matter. Energy beam or not, pumping a lot of energy into a single point is going to cause a big explosion. Unless it uses some kind of  technobabble to contain the energy, and we know the binary fusion cannon doesn't since it caused a lot of collateral damage when it blew up the Cadmus facility.

The binary fusion cannon is stated to have the yield of a small nuke, and for the most part its effects are entirely consistent with that idea, unless we do something stupid like assume complete vaporization of the target when there's no reason to.

Besides, Vandal Savage's railgun does the same amount of damage and doesn't have to wait an hour between shots. Why not use that instead?

Then you can say they killed the HST by throwing rocks at them.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Nov 30, 2012)

Nope.avi

Example just like how Supes can pinpoint his heat ray to one location.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 30, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> ...it's really not bullshit in relation to the actual feat portrayed, IWD (feebas was honestly rather generous, assuming melting took place despite no correlation from visuals _at all_), and try not to sensationalise this as some major conspiracy by feebas to build up some horde of 'fanboys' and *RUIN THE OBD FOREVER OMFG!!11!!1*
> 
> Christ, I'll scale whatever this 'reactor cannon' feat is if you want.



I didn't accuse anyone of organizing a conspiracy I said retards are at the gates and instead of beating them down we're being told to accept them and thats crap thats AS level crap

in any case the roads the dirt the ground hiccuped and lifted like a wave..this spread through out the entire city..beyond the city

news reporters were reporting tremors and stuff in friggen Japan as a result of the blast


----------



## KaiserWombat (Nov 30, 2012)

Yeah, I do recall the tremors from the US to Japan as part of the firing side-effect: that could be much more interesting to investigate as part of the reactor cannon calc, IMHO.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Nope.avi
> 
> Example just like how Supes can pinpoint his heat ray to one location.



Which the binary fusion cannon doesn't do, considering it caused a huge explosion and did heavy collateral damage to the city.

The trench feat is the more impressive showing by far, and that only gets more than single digit megatons by being obscenely generous.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> in any case the roads the dirt the ground hiccuped and lifted like a wave..this spread through out the entire city..beyond the city
> 
> news reporters were reporting tremors and stuff in friggen Japan as a result of the blast



We have nukes in real life that are more impressive than that:



			
				Tsar Bomba said:
			
		

> The original, November 1961 A.E.C. estimate of the yield was 55?60 Mt, but since 1991 all Russian sources have stated its yield as 50 Mt. Khrushchev warned in a filmed speech to the Supreme Soviet of the existence of a 100 Mt bomb (technically the design was capable of this yield). Although simplistic fireball calculations predicted the fireball would impact the ground, the bomb's own shock wave reflected back and prevented this.[9] The fireball reached nearly as high as the altitude of the release plane and was seen almost 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) from ground zero. The subsequent mushroom cloud was about 64 kilometres (40 mi) high (over seven times the height of Mount Everest), which meant that the cloud was above the stratosphere and well inside the mesosphere when it peaked. The base of the cloud was 40 kilometres (25 mi) wide. All buildings in the village of Severny (both wooden and brick), located 55 kilometres (34 mi) from ground zero within the Sukhoy Nos test range, were destroyed. In districts hundreds of kilometers from ground zero wooden houses were destroyed, stone ones lost their roofs, windows and doors; and radio communications were interrupted for almost one hour. One participant in the test saw a bright flash through dark goggles and felt the effects of a thermal pulse even at a distance of 270 kilometres (170 mi). The heat from the explosion could have caused third-degree burns 100 km (62 mi) away from ground zero. A shock wave was observed in the air at Dikson settlement 700 kilometres (430 mi) away; windowpanes were partially broken to distances of 900 kilometres (560 mi). Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage at even greater distances, breaking windows in Norway and Finland. The seismic shock created by the detonation was measurable even on its third passage around the Earth.[10] Its seismic body wave magnitude was about 5 to 5.25.[9] The energy yield was around 8.1 on the Richter scale but, since the bomb was detonated in air rather than underground, most of the energy was not converted to seismic waves. The TNT equivalent of the 50 Mt test could be represented by a cube of TNT 312 meters (1023 feet) on a side, approximately the height of the Eiffel Tower.



There's nothing concrete suggesting that the binary fusion cannon is more powerful than this, except for the fact that being near it when it fired knocked out Superman, and you can just as easily call that a low showing for Superman.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 30, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Yeah, I do recall the tremors from the US to Japan as part of the firing side-effect: that could be much more interesting to investigate as part of the reactor cannon calc, IMHO.



that would go towards the overall firepower of the towers main gun..essentially

and Edlrich you're acting like a Tsar bomb wouldn't slaughter anything in the HST...I wasn't making the comparison because whether or not the watch tower compares isn't really relevant given it's outrageous overkill


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 30, 2012)

On a mostly unrelated side note...

[YOUTUBE]54MulXVxH7o[/YOUTUBE]

I love how Captain Atom gets his ass handed to him in that episode despite spamming red sun radiation the whole time.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Nov 30, 2012)

Atom's triple headbutt to Supes was still awesome


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 30, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> feeblefactors calc is bullshit...given what the reactor canon did in ther episode where Luthor hacked it to frame the JLU.



Well if there is something wrong with the calc, find what's specifically wrong with it, instead of saying "that can't be right because I don't agree with the numbers".
Anyway, even if that particular feat doesn't show whatever level you are implying, other ones could (or powerscaling), so you can just calc those and you're sorted.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 1, 2012)

Radical Edward said:


> Location: Default
> 
> Distance: Default
> 
> ...



i don't see either the core seven or extended league (excluding the other laterns since they're not technicaly members) winning scenario 1 or 2. sc3 has multiple dcau people that can solo. 

only other thing i want to say is jlu flash is overated. animated flash basically operates on the rules wally west did back in the earliest issues of flash where he couldn't go ftl, had just stop needing to eat a lot after using speed, and stopped living with hsi fat black friend. jlu flash doesn't know which of the 100 million + people on the field to blitz. 

supes can do better but not tip things. gl/s could glass and ultimately steal victory, but technically sc 1 &2 should only have 1 or 2. their shields weren't impressive.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 1, 2012)

Flash overrated?

Flash took a city busting/Multi City block bomb while it was exploding ran it across the desert and let it detonate miles away from the city. Notice how every body even Superman was in slow motion and Flash was the only person moving fast in the super slow motion replay. Flash alone can speed blitz anyone in HST. 

[YOUTUBE]Zu4GnXWyCI8[/YOUTUBE]
@25:40

As far as I am concern this feat just shit on any speed feat HST has to offer.

Lol At unrestricted JL losing to HST . You do know Manhunter has feats where his telepathic powers reach is globally and into other dimensions. Like when Injustice League captured  Batman and he contacted Jon the moment the stasis field went down. Jon was on the watch Tower.

 Jon flies and mind rapes them all.


----------



## mcdave (Dec 1, 2012)

The Railguns and the Watchtower Beam are underwhelming anything more destructive for the big 7?


----------



## Tom Servo (Dec 1, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Flash overrated?
> 
> Flash took a city busting/Multi City block bomb while it was exploding ran it across the desert and let it detonate miles away from the city. Notice how every body even Superman was in slow motion and Flash was the only person moving fast in the super slow motion replay. Flash alone can speed blitz anyone in HST.
> 
> ...



isn't Flash's top speed atleast light speed?

there was this feat where he grabbed a bomb and ran all the way outside las vegas in one second and most likely outran the explosion when it detonated

there was where he ran nearly all the way to the sun in 7 minutes and 30 seconds

and that one feat against Lex/Braniac where he ran around the entire world and kept decking him before he had a chance to react

also Sinestro pointed out that both his ring and Flash can move at the lightspeed

@24:32

[YOUTUBE]5EnVg46WTAs[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 1, 2012)

Green Lantern dragged the JLA's ship across half the Galaxy, his shielding on the ship also protected them from a temporal storm that altered the timeline as they were unaffected by the change. GL could tow certain characters lightyears away.

Feebas's calc is generous considering the feat posted for the Tower, now if there is a better feat, it's better to post that and calc that one instead.

EDIT Anyone calc'd Darkseid surviving that explosion in S2(he was groggy and bleeding though)?Supes could hurt him quite badly once so that probably gives an idea on his punches.

Superman also threatened to knock the tower out of Earth's orbit as collateral from his fight with Darkseid as per Batman.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> We have nukes in real life that are more impressive than that:



Detectable does not mean you can feel it. A earthquake of cataogry XII across a city and category III or above on the other side of the world is really hardcore. But if we use the earthquakes there, we'd have to use earthquakes for madara's rock for consistency if it gives radically different values to the observed DC.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 1, 2012)

It's funny because it resembles the avengers more than the justice league.


----------



## familyparka (Dec 1, 2012)

How is this still going?


----------



## willyvereb (Dec 1, 2012)

We tried.
But the earthquake generated by Madara's rock was only a few hundred tons of TNT.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 1, 2012)

^ that depends on what the actual distance is


and which method is more correct - the meteor sim or jwl1's


but yeah


----------



## feebas_factor (Dec 1, 2012)

familyparka said:


> How is this still going?



Discussing/analyzing feats. Believe it or not not every OBD thread is four one-liners followed by a flame war. 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> feeblefactors calc is bullshit...given what the reactor canon did in ther episode where Luthor hacked it to frame the JLU









willyvereb said:


> We tried.
> But the earthquake generated by Madara's rock was only a few hundred tons of TNT.



Yeah, earthquakes/tremors are a huge pain to try and translate into DC. You could try to ballpark it from the blast size, maybe. But as per the previous picture, the destruction shown really was rather underwhelming. 



I'm assuming a good chunk of the power went into the earth instead into the blast, maybe.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Feebas's calc is generous considering the feat posted for the Tower, now if there is a better feat, it's better to post that and calc that one instead.


It might have been a bit generous... But I'm happy to try calcing a better Tower feat if there actually is one.



Tranquil Fury said:


> EDIT Anyone calc'd Darkseid surviving that explosion in S2(he was groggy and bleeding though)?Supes could hurt him quite badly once so that probably gives an idea on his punches.



[YOUTUBE]XgpP2fG1LZc[/YOUTUBE]



The one at 40:39? Or a different one? Because IIRC the last one actually 100% killed him, hence having to be brought back to life in a later episode.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Superman also threatened to knock the tower out of Earth's orbit as collateral from his fight with Darkseid as per Batman.



Would need to try and calc the size/mass of the watchtower to know its gravitational field escape energy, but that might be reasonably doable.



Danger Doom said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Technically you only need to be massively hypersonic to do that, which is consistant with a lot of DCAU Flash's other feats. Of course, that's still indeed faster than any speed feat in the HST, like you said. I really don't think anyone would actually argue against the bold. 

But you also need destructive capacity to blitz; it's pointless hitting your opponent before they can react if your standard attacks are city block and they're sitting at mountain-level.



Danger Doom said:


> Lol At unrestricted JL losing to HST . You do know Manhunter has feats where his telepathic powers reach is globally and into other dimensions. Like when Injustice League captured  Batman and he contacted Jon the moment the stasis field went down. Jon was on the watch Tower.
> 
> Jon flies and mind rapes them all.



Ignoring for now the possibility of mindrape resistance, do you know if DCAU Manhunter ever actually shown the ability to _mindrape_ on a _large scale_, or just to communicate at long distance? There's a difference.

Plus that massive weakness to fire could be a bit of a hinderance in general.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Dec 1, 2012)

DCAU J'onn nearly overloaded from simultaneously scanning the minds of a single human city: if he's planetary-scale in telepathy, it is only going to be on an individual scale, _maybe_ a small group of characters (like a dozen or less) at best.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 1, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> Discussing/analyzing feats. Believe it or not not every OBD thread is four one-liners followed by a flame war.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nope wrong ...


You need to be massively hypersonic to out run a explosion. Before you try a lul physic calculation which ignores a lot of principals but want to justify anyway.

As you can see the bomb was already exploding. He was carrying it the *fusion* bomb was exploding. He carried it to about 10 miles out the city . That tells you he was moving at relativistic speed considering to do such a feat you would a increase small fraction of a second reaction which that demonstrated.


You know in actual physics  the theory of the closer you are to the speed of light the more time doesn't become a factor .


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> As you can see the bomb was already exploding.



That's actually quite hard to spot. I've only just noticed it just now when I replayed the slow-motion video in slow motion. 

That's some serious speed though. Do they give any indication about what that bomb is made of?
EDIT: Oh, a fusion bomb. Well that would depend on what he is outrunning: the radiation or the blast wave?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 1, 2012)

I swear the calcers accidentally giving the trolls the means to downplay 

any way this should have been closed between the flashes speed and the fire power and everything else this is a rape for the timverse


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 1, 2012)

He'd have to outrun both wouldn't he?

I'm pretty sure the city isn't immune to either of those things.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Endless said:


> He'd have to outrun both wouldn't he?
> 
> I'm pretty sure the city isn't immune to either of those things.



That may be true, but now I think about it, how does he carry the radiation? Since the thing has clearly already started exploding, 10% of the energy will already have been relased in radiation, so if he isn't going to let it go, he'll have to carry it with him. Tactile telekinesis maybe?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 1, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> That may be true, but now I think about it, how does he carry the radiation? Since the thing has clearly already started exploding, 10% of the energy will already have been relased in radiation, so if he isn't going to let it go, he'll have to carry it with him. Tactile telekinesis maybe?



Don't they all have that now or something?


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Endless said:


> Don't they all have that now or something?



Yeah, it's a trope, but tactile telekinesis working on radiation is pushing it. But if there is no other way round it, I guess that's what we'll have to explain it with.


----------



## mcdave (Dec 1, 2012)

John Mclane vs the Flash both can outrun Explosions 

The world run is seriously faster.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Dec 1, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> The one at 40:39? Or a different one? Because IIRC the last one actually 100% killed him, hence having to be brought back to life in a later episode.



Pretty sure he means the TAS one on Apokolips.

[YOUTUBE]iTECNKpZAM4[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 1, 2012)

mcdave said:


> John Mclane vs the Flash both can outrun Explosions
> 
> The world run is seriously faster.



What speed does electromagnetic radiation move at? 

Flash got out of the city before electromagnetic radiation moved a metre if it was the radiation he was outrunning. If not it's still pretty fast, I'm pretty sure i heard the shockwave from nukes is relativistic.
So it's at least ultrarelativistic, FTL depending on how we consider relativity.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 1, 2012)

What you have to rationalize is the time not the speed . He remove the bomb and started to run when the time instantly went 0. Notice he was so fast he got a few blocks before the fusion process began. Then as you can see as the clock went 0 you heard the explosion from Jokers end. So the bomb didn't have a delay it exploded at 0 as it intended to.

Now Flash had to grab this bomb run miles away and then run back to safety. Within that time gap . So this means DCAU Flash operates similar to his omoi part where they can react to small fractions of nanoseconds . While this Wally may not have those ridiculous time reactions as his comic counterpart but he still has one.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Dec 2, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Detectable does not mean you can feel it. A earthquake of cataogry XII across a city and category III or above on the other side of the world is really hardcore. But if we use the earthquakes there, we'd have to use earthquakes for madara's rock for consistency if it gives radically different values to the observed DC.



The reporter says the tremors from the binary fusion cannon were detected as far away as Japan, not that they were felt there, so my comparison is fine.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 2, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The reporter says the tremors from the binary fusion cannon were detected as far away as Japan, not that they were felt there, so my comparison is fine.



Oh, in which case, the dc would be not so impressive. I can't quote a source on this, but I'm pretty sure I remember being told an earthquake magnitude 3 or more can be detected across the world. A magnitude 3 earthquake is 32 tons TNT.


----------



## feebas_factor (Dec 2, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> DCAU J'onn nearly overloaded from simultaneously scanning the minds of a single human city: if he's planetary-scale in telepathy, it is only going to be on an individual scale, _maybe_ a small group of characters (like a dozen or less) at best.


Thanks for confirming, I wasn't sure about that.


willyvereb said:


> Well, yeah.
> Except this sort of "vibration" directly excites the molecules.
> It's a shy away from manipulating the molecules.
> Regular durability won't do much here.
> ...


I don't know about Comics Flash, but I believe DCAU Flash is specifically stated to use his vibrations to create *unstable resonance*:

Link removed

 essentially means that vibrations accumulate, rather than cancelling eachother out, until the entire structure resonates at such an intensity that it is destroyed (this obviously works better on rigid, unyielding objects such as buildings, doors, etc.) You still need to put in the minimum energy to destroy the target, but you don't have to do it all at once, because the vibrational energy accumulates.

Of course I could be wrong, if perhaps Flash specifically stated his use of *molecule-manipulating vibrations* in another episode, but AFAIK it's not something I can recall ever being explicitly said. 

I know he's also used "vibration punches" in other episodes; macroscopic vibrations in general would certainly increase his attacks' potency, but not to the point that they ignore durability.


jetwaterluffy1 said:


> What speed does electromagnetic radiation move at?
> 
> Flash got out of the city before electromagnetic radiation moved a metre if it was the radiation he was outrunning. If not it's still pretty fast, I'm pretty sure i heard the shockwave from nukes is relativistic.
> So it's at least ultrarelativistic, FTL depending on how we consider relativity.


IDK about tactile telekinesis or whatnot for the radiation.  
But for the shockwave at least:





> Applying the more detailed form of those calculations to the Ivy Mike device yields vaporized pusher gas expansion velocity of 290 kilometers per second and an implosion velocity of perhaps 400 kilometers per second if 3/4 of the total tamper/pusher mass is ablated off, the most energy efficient proportion. For the W-80 the gas expansion velocity is roughly 410 kilometers per second and the implosion velocity 570 kilometers per second. The pressure due to the ablating material is calculated to be 5.3 billion bar (530 TPa) in the Ivy Mike device and 64 billion bar (6.4 PPa) in the W-80 device.



Even the lowest, 290 kilometers/second, ~ Mach 845. Obviously much higher if you figure out a way to factor in radiation. 

As a side note: Superman notes the bomb is a "", which AFAIK is generally a chemical bomb, not any sort of fusion or nuclear device. It shouldn't affect much, but I'm really not sure where Danger Doom ever got the idea from since they don't actually seem to mention it anywhere else in the episode. 


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I swear the calcers accidentally giving the trolls the means to downplay
> 
> any way this should have been closed between the flashes speed and the *fire power* and everything else this is a rape for the timverse



Speed's great without the DC to use it. 
You've got a country-level Watchtower feat you'd like to show us? 
Plus I've already affirmed multiple times that in an entire verse on verse battle, DCAU takes it easily.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 2, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> What you have to rationalize is the time not the speed . He remove the bomb and started to run when the time instantly went 0. Notice he was so fast he got a few blocks before the fusion process began. Then as you can see as the clock went 0 you heard the explosion from Jokers end. So the bomb didn't have a delay it exploded at 0 as it intended to.
> 
> Now Flash had to grab this bomb run miles away and then run back to safety. Within that time gap . So this means DCAU Flash operates similar to his omoi part where they can react to small fractions of nanoseconds . While this Wally may not have those ridiculous time reactions as his comic counterpart but he still has one.



wouldn't this make him faster than he was going against luthor and nearly dropped into the speed force??? 

mm showed he could read a bunch of thoughts from multiple people at once, but never showed to mind slick more than one (edit Strong willed! )person at a time.

gl john, from what i can remember, had his shield smashed through in combat by any near superman level opponent almost all damn time.

also it should be noted that owlman from the crisis on infinite earth movie solos casually.


----------



## Tom Servo (Dec 2, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> wouldn't this make him faster than he was going against luthor and nearly dropped into the speed force???
> 
> mm showed he could read a bunch of thoughts from multiple people at once, but never showed to mind slick more than one (edit Strong willed! )person at a time.
> 
> ...



or vandal savage's missile from "Justice League: Doom" where it can travel to the sun in minutes and then generate a solar flare that would wipe out 1/2 to 2/3rds of the earth's population

then there was the fact that Hal Jordan and Superman sped past this lightspeed solar flare like an old lady crossing the freeway or Hal Jordan's shield that was resilient enough to block this planetary solar flare threat or vandal savage's intangibility machine that can make the entire earth intangible if used by the watchtower


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 2, 2012)

> The one at 40:39? Or a different one? Because IIRC the last one actually 100% killed him, hence having to be brought back to life in a later episode



First one, the one caused by Orion at the start of the episode or so before Brainiac's ship appears. There are probably better feats out there in DCAU but it's worth a try to calc.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeVu7D36czw[/YOUTUBE]

1 min 59 secs

UD mentioned a feat might as well calc that. 

Flash since he's mentioned has a feat of running to the Allied forces and warning them about Savage's attack in S1 last episode, he's shown there with an entire fleet ready.

In the episode with Doctor Destiny, Flash faces his worst fear of never being able to slow down, we see how everyone is frozen compared to him, even Martian Manhunter and other JL members that enter his dream freeze(MM can enter people's dreams, take others into them and can do just about anything in those worlds like grow really big for example) and as Flash says to one of the frozen nameless characters

"I'm going to live out my whole life by the time you finish tying your shoe lace"

Shows us how Flash sees things/perceives time compared to other characters and how fast he can move.

And for Superman heat vision

Doomsday:My skin can survive a nuclear explosion

Justice Lord Superman then lobotimises him with his heat vision, considering the heat of a nuke that would put Supes heat vision quite high and if he focuses it like that onto particular areas like the brain he can do some nasty stuff.

Can only think of very few HST characters that can survive that kind of heat.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 2, 2012)

Do they get the satellite cannon?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 2, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]oygvYois-rQ[/YOUTUBE]
1:15-1:42 2:51-3:07
MFTL Planetary? 
HST is fucked.
9:00-9:26
Barrage from space HST is fucked 
This thread made me pick up where I left off on JL


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 2, 2012)

Green Lantern sends a few characters to the Sun?He has that feat in S2 involving a bomb but since his ring can contain multiple characters and even some really large things like the JL Ship.

Flash reached the Sun less than 7 and a half minutes, hard to say where he starts from since GL carried him at FTL speeds but when Flash starts running after that we see what appears to be Mercury on his way to the Sun.

Flash>>>>HST in speed, so is Green Lantern for that matter.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 2, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> As a side note: Superman notes the bomb is a "", which AFAIK is generally a chemical bomb, not any sort of fusion or nuclear device. *It shouldn't affect much, but I'm really not sure where Danger Doom ever got the idea from since they don't actually seem to mention it anywhere else in the episode. *



Did you watch the episode ?  

@Bold The bomb was large enough to destroy the las Vegas Strip which is why everyone but 1 old Lady was evacuated. Supes already knew where all the bombs were. 

2) If it wasnt gonna do much why Flash didnt just leave the building since you bloody know it wont do fucking much? Ever since the Supes vs Capt Marvel fight they could give a darn about destruction of public property. 

Ignoring a chemical bomb to cause that level of explosion would not been that small to begin with. Certainly not small that you can cradle it in your arms.

Ignoring a chemical bomb would not energize itself like what was shown in the super slow mo. 

Ignoring the key detail where Supes said he does not know what was in the bomb because he couldnt see it so he was guessing.  So unless you got one on one with the writers to tell me for sure it was a chemical bomb then go ahead. I will wait. 



Nice try but no cigar once again .

Cant believe I am arguing over this shit, Flash is faster than anyone in HST period.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Dec 2, 2012)

I need to say this now before it becomes a trainwreck.

People, calm down.

You *can* be civil on an internet debate, believe it or not.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 2, 2012)

I am calm however we all know feebas is just here to downplay every feat with the nitpicking.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 2, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Did you watch the episode ?
> 
> @Bold The bomb was large enough to destroy the las Vegas Strip which is why everyone but 1 old Lady was evacuated. Supes already knew where all the bombs were.
> 
> ...



That doesn't mean it will be a fusion bomb specifically. Where did you get that from. A uranium bomb would be enough. Also, this is the JLU. They could have the tech to produce extra-powerful chemical weapons. Having said that, if this is the shockwave as opposed to the radiation, could you not assume a radius (1m for the distance between his hands maybe, or 10m as the width of the street?), then use  to get a timeframe.


----------



## willyvereb (Dec 2, 2012)

Nah, it's some fictional bomb.
Neither fission nor a fusion bomb can be scaled down to such size and expected to possess this kind of destruction.
Actually, scaling down a thermonuclear warhead is a damn near impossible thing already.

So it's some sort of fictional explosive which is expected to have the same yield as a nuke.
Albeit you're right, assuming the mechanism of a thermonuclear explosive makes no sense here but a fission-type nuclear bomb's do.
Which means Mach 100 initial shockwaves as I found out just recently.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 2, 2012)

I can concede to what Willy is saying.


----------



## Tom Servo (Dec 2, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Green Lantern sends a few characters to the Sun?He has that feat in S2 involving a bomb but since his ring can contain multiple characters and even some really large things like the JL Ship.
> 
> Flash reached the Sun less than 7 and a half minutes, hard to say where he starts from since GL carried him at FTL speeds but when Flash starts running after that we see what appears to be Mercury on his way to the Sun.
> 
> Flash>>>>HST in speed, so is Green Lantern for that matter.



i don't think GL boosted his speed i think that the ring just gave him a platform to run on and gave him oxygen, also the fact that John Stewart's ring's top speed is about as equal as Flash's running sort of confirms what Sinestro said about both his ring and Flash's movements being lightspeed


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 2, 2012)

I never said it boosted his speed,

the other part of my post:


> but when Flash starts running after that we see what appears to be Mercury on his way to the Sun.
> 
> Flash>>>>HST in speed, so is Green Lantern for that matter.



Green Lantern=FTL
Flash=FTL

Both are>>>>>>HST in speed.

Green Lantern carried Flash from Earth(JL headquarters) to before Mercury(could also have been Venus) that's FTL, he also carried the unconscious Flash back to JL headquarters which is also FTL.  

Flash covered pre Mercury(could also have been Venus) to Sun distance in minutes. Flash ran at FTL speeds, Lantern simply gave him something to run on, incidently it's also a feat of creating a FTL platform.

EDIT Simplified my post so it's easier to understand


----------



## willyvereb (Dec 2, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> I don't know about Comics Flash, but I believe DCAU Flash is specifically stated to use his vibrations to create *unstable resonance*:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...


I don't remember any specific statements but Flash can vibrate his own molecules which he can use to phase through objects or destroy them.
In the latter case you can imagine it as Flash's molecules directly colliding with the target's.
Hence I called it almost like molecular manipulation.
It directly attacks each molecule or even the atoms, hence advantages gained from special structure and such are completely nulled.
Meaning most forms of fictional durability are also useless.
For example instead of attacking diamond you strike the individual carbon atoms.

Of course the above is Flash from the comics. But I believe DCAU did the same against Brainiac-Luthor.
Same-frequency vibrations are strong but to purge all nanomachines from Luthor you'd need something far more precise.

Of course, you can say this technique is limited to a Flash who's tapping very much into the Speedforce.



feebas_factor said:


> IDK about tactile telekinesis or whatnot for the radiation.
> But for the shockwave at least:
> 
> 
> ...


Intersting.

Maybe I can use that for my latest calc.
I used a different source which talked about fission nukes but I guess an explosion with 20-30 megatons of heat should be closer to a thermonuclear warhead.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 2, 2012)

On the Secret Society episode

Sinestro: My beams are fast as you are, lightspeed
-Says this to the Flash

Lightspeed could just be the minimum, either way this proves that Green Lantern attacks and Flash are at minimum lightspeed. FTL since John(has more than one FTL feat like towing the JL across half a galaxy or his two feats in the Sun episode) and Flash have FTL feats(so far atleast one upto this episode).

Characters like Superman, Wonderwoman and MM can keep up with Lanterns so this would apply to them too.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 2, 2012)

Then there's the episode when Flash helped Mr. miracle and Big Bartha on Apocalypse. There was a huge multi city block explosion at the end when they were stuck in the middle of a stronghold. 

MM credited their survival to Flash (mine you this were 3 other people with Flash.)


----------



## Tom Servo (Dec 2, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> On the Secret Society episode
> 
> Sinestro: My beams are fast as you are, lightspeed
> -Says this to the Flash
> ...



Even DCAU Superman is faster than EOS DBZ characters


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 2, 2012)

Wonder Woman reacted to Weatherman summoning lightning from a cloud on the lower scale of speed feats. Flash also has a trick of sucking oxygen away with his speed like he did in the previous episode.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Dec 2, 2012)

Naturally, all of these superluminal feats completely clash with the entire point of Flash's IMP against Luthoriac.

Wally casually goes FTL without a hitch, yet not even breaking 50% the speed of light nearly gets him consumed by the Speed Force?

Something's definitely up with that contrast, and I certainly don't think we should leave it aside.


----------



## willyvereb (Dec 2, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Naturally, all of these superluminal feats completely clash with the entire point of Flash's IMP against Luthoriac.
> 
> Wally casually goes FTL without a hitch, yet not even breaking 50% the speed of light nearly gets him consumed by the Speed Force?
> 
> Something's definitely up with that contrast, and I certainly don't think we should leave it aside.


Advance of the narrative?
All the FTL feats for Flash happened later in the story so we can't say the author(s) could've accounted for it, even if they tried.
Also calcs rarely if ever establishing something other than a minimum.
Point is, there's no way to tell exactly how fast the Speedforce-enhanced Flash were zig-zagging against Brainiac-Luthor.


----------



## LazyWaka (Dec 2, 2012)

Actually, how fast would the flash be if he circled the earth in half a second?

Edit: Nvm.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 2, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Naturally, all of these superluminal feats completely clash with the entire point of Flash's IMP against Luthoriac.
> 
> Wally casually goes FTL without a hitch, yet not even breaking 50% the speed of light nearly gets him consumed by the Speed Force?
> 
> Something's definitely up with that contrast, and I certainly don't think we should leave it aside.



How is this any different than the destructive feats of the JL?We have feats that go from cityblock level or higher yet cars can hurt them at times. 
-Flash's greatest fear is he can never slow down and everything around appears frozen when he can't, it was a dream but based on his fear of not being able to slow down so we do get an idea on how he sees things when he moves

-John Stewart has atleast 3 FTL feats off the top of my head i.e towing the JL halfway across the Galaxy and carrying Flash till pre Mercury, carrying the unconscious Flash back to JL headquarters. 

-Sinestro states his ring is lightspeed which would be consistent with the above feats for a Green Lantern level also showing they can fight at those levels, the same as Flash's speed as he states.

-Flash has a FTL feat in the bomb episode

Flash has massively hypersonic to FTL feats yet has at times been tagged by less. 

Have'nt reached the Luthoriac episode yet. If he's moved at FTL speeds after that then it's clearly inconsistent with him moving lightspeed to FTL multiple times.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 2, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> I don't remember any specific statements but Flash can vibrate his own molecules which he can use to phase through objects or destroy them.
> In the latter case you can imagine it as Flash's molecules directly colliding with the target's.
> Hence I called it almost like molecular manipulation.
> It directly attacks each molecule or even the atoms, hence advantages gained from special structure and such are completely nulled.
> ...


You could use the link I showed, if you know the yield. 
I'm pretty sure that equation isn't exclusive to nuclear devices.


----------



## willyvereb (Dec 2, 2012)

@jwl1: I might be just tried but I can't see anything that I could use to calculate a bomb's detonation velocity based on its yield.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 2, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> @jwl1: I might be just tried but I can't see anything that I could use to calculate a bomb's detonation velocity based on its yield.



I've just posed one. Find the radius, and you have a timeframe. Work out how far flash travelled, and bingo, you have a speed.


----------



## willyvereb (Dec 2, 2012)

Well, then the only question is:
Which radius?
The radius of its fireball?
The range of its destruction?
The range from which it could still send building-collapsing shockwaves?
The range how far the Flash carried it (implying that's the minimum safe range from the explosion)?
Which one?


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 2, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Well, then the only question is:
> Which radius?
> The radius of its fireball?
> The range of its destruction?
> ...



The front radius of the explosion at the time. I would have thought about a metre, as beyond that flash wouldn't be able to carry it. This is an instantaneous thing, which is the point, as you are trying to get a timeframe.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 2, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Naturally, all of these superluminal feats completely clash with the entire point of Flash's IMP against Luthoriac.
> 
> Wally casually goes FTL without a hitch, yet not even breaking 50% the speed of light nearly gets him consumed by the Speed Force?
> 
> Something's definitely up with that contrast, and I certainly don't think we should leave it aside.



I would say it's because he did it on earth if not author inconsistency.


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## feebas_factor (Dec 2, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I would say it's because he did it on earth if not author inconsistency.


This... might be a point worth considering. Physically speaking it's *much* easier to reach absurdly high speeds in space than on earth, because you've got plenty of distance to accelerate in a straight line and nothing to slow you down no matter how fast you go. Anything you add to your kinetic energy, stays there, even if you wouldn't have the ability to maintain that speed on earth.



Heck, literally _any_ character with energy projection and sufficient stamina could reach relativistic speeds in space if they just kept firing off energy behind them for long enough. That's just physics. 


jetwaterluffy1 said:


> You could use the link I showed, if you know the yield.
> I'm pretty sure that equation isn't exclusive to nuclear devices.


Cool find by the way. 
I'd definitely like to try and use this in some calculations as well.


willyvereb said:


> Well, then the only question is:
> Which radius?
> The radius of its fireball?
> The range of its destruction?
> ...


My understanding was you'd need to find the total yield of the bomb (E), which you could either lowball as large-building-busting from the others in the episode, or try to determine from the explosion here (needs angular scaling though).

From  there, what you'd plug into the equation is the explosion radius at any given instant in mid-explosion (here, for example, shortly after it starts its initial expansion), or just assume it reaches a meter by the end of Flash's trip as JWL1 suggested.

Solve for time, and you've got your timeframe for whatever happened while it was exploding. Might take a bit work and some assumptions in this case but it's probably feasible.


Danger Doom said:


> As you can see the bomb was already exploding. He was carrying it the *fusion* bomb was exploding. He carried it to about 10 miles out the city.


Well... it's not quite a fusion bomb, and it doesn't look like 10 miles in the , but credit where it's due: you were quite right about the underlined. It's a bit hard to spot at first, but Flash is indeed carrying the bomb at least a few kilometers in mid-detonation.


Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Pretty sure he means the TAS one on Apokolips.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]iTECNKpZAM4[/YOUTUBE]


 The explosion at 1:58? 

Mmm, that's only about large building level to maybe cityblock by volume. Obviously much more powerful by scaling considering it hurt Darkseid, so I don't think it'd be too useful to calc.


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## KaiserWombat (Dec 3, 2012)

My issue is in regards to the Speed Force and how as Flash continually accelerates in velocity, he gets closer to merging with the SF and losing his individual existence in the process.

If he can just randomly attain FTL, then it makes no sense as to why it happened at all at just 40% LS. It wouldn't even be a weakness that Flash would have to worry about in any vs scenario, if he can reach much faster speeds without even once being threatened by the SF again (despite his own comments indicating the contrary in the Luthoriac episode).


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 3, 2012)

it is an inconsistency, though I'm not sure which "side" we should take here


*anything* Flash has still shits on HST speed-wise though


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 3, 2012)

Has Flash moved FTL after the Luthoriac episode?If he has then that episode does'nt make sense, if not, not sure which is inconsistent here.


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## willyvereb (Dec 3, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> My issue is in regards to the Speed Force and how as Flash continually accelerates in velocity, he gets closer to merging with the SF and losing his individual existence in the process.
> 
> If he can just randomly attain FTL, then it makes no sense as to why it happened at all at just 40% LS. It wouldn't even be a weakness that Flash would have to worry about in any vs scenario, if he can reach much faster speeds without even once being threatened by the SF again (despite his own comments indicating the contrary in the Luthoriac episode).


Like I said, we don't actually know how fast Flash were moving in that scene.
Calcs only indicate a minimum for the feat.
It isn't his absolute limit.

We know that Speedforce-merged Flash can move *at least* 40-50% of the speed of light.
Timeframes being subjective as usual, there's a chance he was moving even faster.
He could be FTL for all we care.
The calc only implied a lower limit to perform the said feat.

Seriously, you were the one to mention that calcs are just something made by fans.
Don't think of them as something absolute.
They are good debating tool and clearly better than just random subjective claims or "eyeing" the feat.
But that's all to them.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 3, 2012)

Wait the 50% is a calc thing?Then it's overriden by canon in case of contradiction.


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, don't they have bad durability and DC?  In alot of fiction (at least in this example) you can't correlate speed to destructive capability, because they pretty much ignore physics.

The best one I can think of is superman punching Darkseid through multiple skyscrapers.

And is Darkseid's fortress made of really strong material?  I'm just curious about the finale of superman animated.


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## willyvereb (Dec 3, 2012)

Maybe you'd have been wiser if you read up this thread.
Anyways, IIRC there's a calc for Supergirl which puts her punches in the megaton range.
And she isn't particularly strong compared to the other heavy hitters.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 3, 2012)

if time was slowed down there for us viewers (as in Luthoriac took a fraction of a second to turn around as opposed to several seconds of video time) then Flash would've been FTL there, yeah


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## willyvereb (Dec 3, 2012)

Given that Brainiac-Luthor was most likely on par with the heavy hitters of the JL like Supes and Green Lantern...that could be a definite possibility.


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## KaiserWombat (Dec 3, 2012)

Probably overthinking it, but I still don't like that it would apply one way but not the other

Anyway, Supergirl's punches were calculated to be "only" in the kiloton range (double-digits), but that was way back in her initial appearance in Superman: TAS.

By the end of JLU, she's easily in the same range of power as Kal-El, or at least his strength in the earlier seasons (megaton-range).


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 3, 2012)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> Well, don't they have bad durability and DC?  In alot of fiction (at least in this example) you can't correlate speed to destructive capability, because they pretty much ignore physics.
> 
> The best one I can think of is superman punching Darkseid through multiple skyscrapers.
> 
> And is Darkseid's fortress made of really strong material?  I'm just curious about the finale of superman animated.



They're atleast comparable to mid tier HST not factoring H4X like phasing, entering people's minds/dreams, sucking away oxygen, heat vision to eyes/vitals etc. I'm not upto date with HST but they'd go quite far atleast.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 3, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Naturally, all of these superluminal feats completely clash with the entire point of Flash's IMP against Luthoriac.
> 
> Wally casually goes FTL without a hitch, yet not even breaking 50% the speed of light nearly gets him consumed by the Speed Force?



the other times had special circumstances Wombat..

John used his ring to sorta allow him to reach lightspeed or above once..and he usually had someone else enabling him before the luthor suicide run- the bomb thing could have been below the forty percent lightspeed cap or the run back he could have brought himself dangerously close 

..yeesh why is everyone so eager to dismiss the non anime series feats right off the bat


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## KaiserWombat (Dec 3, 2012)

are you serious IWD?

We accept comic feats off _the drop of a hat_ here, we don't show *nearly* the same level of scrutiny on how valid they are as we do for anime feats


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Eh, kind of seems the same to me honestly.

Bit of a balancing act though.

Will say some double standard probably exists on both sides of the fence, but we're probably never going to be rid of them anyway.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 3, 2012)

This isn't a comic though wombat. 
Honestly I can't see any difference. The major difference is, manga feats are looked into more closely, so you end up with more stuff chucked out, but you don't get overlooked feats. Remember, naruto's speed has only been mach 20 through extensive looking into the mechanics of the feats. On the other hand, not looking closely into them can lead to things looking more impressive than they are, like franky tanking that explosion, which I think people were hyping much higher before it was actually calced. Vague claims are more likely to be accepted, too, because people often can't be bothered looking too hard into whether the claims are actually valid or not. Or at least that's my perspective on it.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 3, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> are you serious IWD?
> 
> We accept comic feats off _the drop of a hat_ here, we don't show *nearly* the same level of scrutiny on how valid they are as we do for anime feats



Why are you bringing up comics? and how they are rightly analyzed? I'm not talking about that



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Eh, kind of seems the same to me honestly.
> 
> Bit of a balancing act though.
> 
> Will say some double standard probably exists on both sides of the fence, but we're probably never going to be rid of them anyway.



I don't think a double standard exists you don't see comic fans rushing to downplay saint saiya or Tenchi or the FSNverse once the spoken word issue was resolved

I think if there exists one at all its for series like Dragon ball and the HST and other series like that..and those fans have no one to blame but themselves for their plight

besides I'm pretty sure certain novels get crapped on much worse than DBz and their western fiction..DS seems hard to spot in light of that

now cancershounentrinity apologists using every opportunity they have to use threads like this to vent their frustration and desperation..I can see



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> This isn't a comic though wombat.
> Honestly I can't see any difference. The major difference is, manga feats are looked into more closely, so you end up with more stuff chucked out, but you don't get overlooked feats. Remember, naruto's speed has only been mach 20 through extensive looking into the mechanics of the feats. On the other hand, not looking closely into them can lead to things looking more impressive than they are, like franky tanking that explosion, which I think people were hyping much higher before it was actually calced. Vague claims are more likely to be accepted, too, because people often can't be bothered looking too hard into whether the claims are actually valid or not. Or at least that's my perspective on it.



what you just implied can lead us down a road into spacebattles territory


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 3, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> What you just implied can lead us down a road into spacebattles territory



What do you mean? It is true that manga is looked into more thouraghly than other fictions.
That's why, if you asked 2 people how fast zoro is, their results would be the same to two significant figures, but if you asked someone how fast, say, firestorm is, it could vary by several orders of magnitude.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 3, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I don't think a double standard exists you don't see comic fans rushing to downplay saint saiya or Tenchi or the FSNverse once the spoken word issue was resolved



Eh, no, they do.

On both sides.

Its impossible to be free of them.  We're fucking human and all.

We just manage it somewhat better around here to the point where they're likely a negligible and unnoticed issue.



> I think if there exists one at all its for series like Dragon ball and the HST and other series like that..and those fans have no one to blame but themselves for their plight



Eh... you're going to find your terrible fans for all sorts of fiction dude.

Regular lit, video games, anime, comics, etc.

Trying to keep all fiction straight and evaluated with purely unbiased and standardized views is just impossible due to the sheer amount of shit we have out there to debate imo.



> besides I'm pretty sure certain novels get crapped on much worse than DBz and their western fiction..DS seems hard to spot in light of that



Could be, wouldn't know for sure.

Not typically a fictional medium I find myself having fictional character battles for.



> now cancershounentrinity apologists using every opportunity they have to use threads like this to vent their frustration and desperation..I can see



There is certainly a large amount of shitty fans for the HST, thus probably helps contribute to that particular image for you.

More people, the more bullshit that's get slung around.

That's just how I see it though.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 3, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Eh, no, they do.
> 
> On both sides.
> 
> ...



that's my point people wanna cry fowl on us far too often




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Eh... you're going to find your terrible fans for all sorts of fiction dude.
> 
> Regular lit, video games, anime, comics, etc.
> 
> Trying to keep all fiction straight and evaluated with purely unbiased and standardized views is just impossible due to the sheer amount of shit we have out there to debate imo.



while this is certainly true my main point was certain fandoms make it extremely difficult to debate objectively due to the sheer inanity of their conduct 



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Could be, wouldn't know for sure.
> 
> Not typically a fictional medium I find myself having fictional character battles for.



Do yourself a favor and try and keep it that way...trust me




ChaosTheory123 said:


> There is certainly a large amount of shitty fans for the HST, thus probably helps contribute to that* particular image for you.*
> 
> More people, the more bullshit that's get slung around.
> 
> That's just how I see it though.



oh I'm hardly alone in that I'm just the asshole _who says it out loud the most_


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## feebas_factor (Dec 4, 2012)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> Well, don't they have bad durability and DC?  In alot of fiction (at least in this example) you can't correlate speed to destructive capability, because they pretty much ignore physics.
> 
> The best one I can think of is superman punching Darkseid through multiple skyscrapers.
> 
> And is Darkseid's fortress made of really strong material?  I'm just curious about the finale of superman animated.


It's not island-level, but low-city level still ain't anything to scoff at.


willyvereb said:


> Maybe you'd have been wiser if you read up this thread.
> Anyways, IIRC there's a calc for Supergirl which puts her *punches in the megaton range.*
> And she isn't particularly strong compared to the other heavy hitters.


, to be precise. 
And you're right, others are stronger still. I think Supes has a calc or two in the double-digits? Not quite _as_ strong as HST top tiers in that domain, but not that far below them either.


Tranquil Fury said:


> They're atleast comparable to mid tier HST not factoring H4X like phasing, entering people's minds/dreams, sucking away oxygen, heat vision to eyes/vitals etc. I'm not upto date with HST but they'd go quite far atleast.


Very true, not to mention their vastly superior speed as previously mentionned.
This was my tentative overall assessment of the match:


Radical Edward said:


> Location: Default
> 
> Distance: Default
> 
> ...



Just my opinion though. 
It's been a surprisingly productive/thoughtful discussion in this thread overall.


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## willyvereb (Dec 4, 2012)

Given a sheer volume of attacks a lightspeed or god forbid MFTL DCAU Supes can deliver, I don't think the Bijuu stands much chance, either.
Not even the Juubi.
Let's assume the Juubi is Mach 50, going by Waka's new calc.
At least Supes, Green Lantern and the Flash can move at the speed of light.
That would equal Mach 881020.
So before the Juubi even realizes what's going on, it took *17620 punches* from Superman, each probably being in the megaton range.
Assuming 10 megatons per punch (since it's apparently in the double digits) that means *176 gigatons* of energy.
Concentrated to a small fist-sized area, no less.
You could say it's like shaped explosive charge.
Only many-many times more powerful.

And that'd be only Superman. Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman should be at the same league as Supes.

MM also has sophisticated form of intangibility which means he could selectively target the Juubi's insides.
Furthermore, the Juubi had shown to be susceptible to mind control.
Something which MM is more than capable of.

There's also Green Lantern.
When Amazo returned, the Green Lantern Corps with a dozen members were trying to destroy the cyborg with their combined might.
John remarks that it would result in the destruction of half the planet.
Even if we're minimalistic and assume a destruction that spreads through half the Earth, the nuke calculator still gives you about *1 petaton of yield* as the minimum.
Even if you spread that yield to each individual Green Lantern equally, that makes them *double digit teraton firepower*.
Even if we ignore the difference in speed, that should be more than enough to destroy the Juubi.

And lastly there's a Flash who may or may not capable of vibrating his molecules like his comic incarnation.
If he does then the Flash has means to directly target the Juubi's molecules, ignoring most of its durability while also pretty much working like J'onn's intagibility. So he could target whatever part of the Juubi he wants.

So yeah, even if it's just the original 7, the Justice League can still outclass the HST.
Bijuu and Juubi or not.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 4, 2012)

> ..yeesh why is* everyone *so eager to dismiss the non anime series feats right off the bat



Who is everyone?Because many users here like things outside anime/manga 
e.g Wombat liking Doctor Who

There are people who show double standards but that applies to any forum, there will always atleast be one person like that at minimum. Kaiser Wombat does'nt have some hesitation towards non anime/manga, Willy certainly does'nt especially considering he's arguing in favor of FTL, I argued in favor of FTL Flash and atleast one poster mentioned Sinestro's statement even before I did.

I like to believe that most of the older  or more sensible users don't care too much about their favorite characters being beaten in fictional debates. It does'nt matter if it's from a comic, novel, anime, cartoon, movie, tv show or a videogame cutscene, they should all be treated unbiased and in an objective manner.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Eh, kind of seems the same to me honestly.
> 
> Bit of a balancing act though.
> 
> Will say some double standard probably exists on both sides of the fence, but we're probably never going to be rid of them anyway.



This.

There is no conspiracy to downplay or be hesitant towards anything not anime/manga and no hivemind so why "everyone" is mentioned as if all the users here have decided to not easily accept feats on principle involving everything not anime/manga? because that ignores the many users here who like things not anime/manga.

From Willy's post it's obvious that the other two scenarios can't be won either so the thread is decided on outcome though people are still free to calc stuff.


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