# Tsunade vs Shroud Lee



## joshhookway (May 19, 2013)

Retrictions: None
Location: Juubi vs Alliance
SOM: IC
Knowledge: manga
Distance: 50 Meters


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## Bonly Jr. (May 19, 2013)

Physical, blunt strikes will not work on Tsunade. Add some distance between them with Katsuya and it's a wrap.


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## LostSelf (May 19, 2013)

Didn't Rock Lee cut Madara in half with a kick and was moving faster than normal?


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## tanman (May 19, 2013)

@OP
Will Lee's cloak last forever?



Minato Namikaze said:


> Physical, blunt strikes will not work on Tsunade.



Why not?


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## Doge (May 19, 2013)

Tsunade gets cut in half, that cloak is no joke.


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## Mithos (May 19, 2013)

Tsunade gets kicked in half, but Lee also gets his skull smashed. Only thing that sucks for Lee is that Tsunade can regenerate with Byakugou.

Tsunade wins.


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## Bonly (May 19, 2013)

Depends if Tsunade is fast enough to hit Lee when he attacks and if Kurama's chakra would protect Lee from most of Tsunade's punches. Tsunade is likely getting cut in half like Madara and depending on how much damage Kurama's chakra can absorb, Tsunade's blindside attack might be useless. I'm not sure how much more power Lee would get in the gates either m.


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## BD Itachi (May 19, 2013)

cloaked lee = elite jounin (at best); tsunade = mid kage

unless you think his protection is superior to that of susano'o, lee doesn't have any remote chance...


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## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

I thought Madara was attached to the Juubi when he got kicked in half. It doesn't matter how great your reactions are if you're stuck in place.

Having said that, Tsunade may still find herself in half. But then she blindsides Lee as a torso  and he dies before she puts herself together.

She takes it in base.


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## Doge (May 19, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Having said that, Tsunade may still find herself in half. But then she blindsides Lee as a torso  and he dies before she puts herself together.



Since she'd just be a torso, how does she blindside someone when she can't move?  And what happens if Lee backs up even 10 feet?


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## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

kresh said:


> Since she'd just be a torso, how does she blindside someone when she can't move?  And what happens if Lee backs up even 10 feet?



She propels herself towards him using her arm.

If you mean he's looking at her when he backs up 10 feet. . .that's a good question.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 19, 2013)

Who knows how fast Shrouded Lee actually is, but he's at least strong enough to kick Madara in half, but Tsunade was able to blow away the former's entire torso with just the small surface area of her fist, as opposed to Lee's leg which extended across Madara's entire midsection.

Tsunade has better strength feats, certainly. How much protection the Nine-Tails Shroud grants is quite hefty; surviving Tenpen Chi isn't remote in the least. However, it's unlikely the actual bolt landed directly on any of the users; it was the resulting shockwave that threw the entire Shinobi Alliance off their feet.

I'd say Tsunade wins, for now.


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## Mithos (May 19, 2013)

kresh said:


> Since she'd just be a torso, how does she blindside someone when she can't move?  And what happens if Lee backs up even 10 feet?



She can hit him as he comes at her.  They would likely exchange blows. 

Only Tsunade can survive being ripped in half, while Lee cannot survive having his chest blow away.


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## DaVizWiz (May 20, 2013)

Gated Lee should be able to blitz her. Her only chance is through Katsuya, who suggested she could stitch her back in half.

The only question is whether or not Tsunade would jump to summoning her before attempting to take Lee out first.

But.. Tsunade summoned her after she was split in half. Not that Lee would allow her to after she was split, but that's something that should be taken into consideration. Tsunade doesn't die quickly and has a ridiculously high pain tolerance.

Katsuya and Byakugo essentially solidifies her victory, and once she understands his speed level, she'll begin protecting herself better with tremor kicks and slug spit.

This, however, must happen before Lee blitzes and kicks her in half. There's no way he's allowing her to regenerate, the next kick is in the head.

*Lee* 8/10.


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## ueharakk (May 20, 2013)

Tsunade wrecks lee.

She takes mini yasaka magatamas to the gut without any signs of damage.  Her hits are far more powerful than his even when he's cloaked (she blew madara up instead of just slicing him in half).


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## LostSelf (May 20, 2013)

I seriously doubt that a mini featless Magatama can compare to Lee's power in this shroud and i doubt that he would have any trouble cutting her in half. Also cloacked Lee was moving as fast as a FRS just jumping, or to put it this way, was probably moving faster than base Gai can, who is confortably faster than her.

Manga knowledge makes torso Tsunade hitting Lee impossible if she fails to do so before she gets kicked and i seriously doubt that Byakugo can regrow her new legs like Piccollo.


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## ueharakk (May 20, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> I seriously doubt that a mini featless Magatama can compare to Lee's power in this shroud and i doubt that he would have any trouble cutting her in half.


well, what are these doubts based on?  What do you think would have happened to edo madara if he was hit with a mini yasaka magatama right in the torso?  



TheIronMan said:


> Also cloacked Lee was moving as fast as a FRS just jumping, or to put it this way, was probably moving faster than base Gai can, who is confortably faster than her.


which means what?  That he blitzes her?  No, just being faster or even comfortably faster than someone is far off from being able to blitz them, and even if he can blitz her, she does the old tank and grab, or take a hit to make a hit strategy.



TheIronMan said:


> Manga knowledge makes torso Tsunade hitting Lee impossible if she fails to do so before she gets kicked and i seriously doubt that Byakugo can regrow her new legs like Piccollo.


He's not bisecting her, just like she's not going to make him explode into a bloody mess if she lands a hit on him.  

Kishi only lets edo tenseis get bisected or blown to bits while he's a lot cleaner with live humans since it's a shounen manga.  That's why orochimaru's head didn't explode when tsunade punched him in the jaw during part 1, why sasuke's upper half of his body didn't go missing when bee sent a lariat into him, or why none of pain's bodys except the most durable, yet mechanical path gets oblitterated by a rasengan.


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## The World (May 20, 2013)

Tsunade gets bisected
























again 


Bisecting Lee > 99% Narutoverse


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## DaVizWiz (May 20, 2013)

> She takes mini yasaka magatamas to the gut without any signs of damage


Outright wank, I actually remember in the last six months debunking this ridiculous notion when I clearly stated she had time to regenerate in a smoke cloud of debris. When are you going to concede that feature is invalid as a durability feature? 

She didn't tank that attack, she regenerated from it. More importantly, her body is ripped apart by a shock wave of a PS slash that didn't hit her directly- and failed to bisect anyone of the other Gokage. 

Her tanking/regenerating features are vague and inconsistent. I sincerely doubt she has the capacity to regenerate from full bisection before Lee stomps her brains into the soil, exploding her head.

You're welcome to provide the scans proving she tanked the attack without regenerating, and without the proper timing to do such. Then, be sure to debunk how she manages to get her body split in half when the other four kages do not. Then, be sure to prove the mini yasaka magatamas have decent busting features, as the larger variants don't even peak paper bomb explosive capacity- something Lee could arguably replicate without even entering gates in KM Cloak.


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## Thunder (May 20, 2013)

With the Kyūbi cloak boost stacked on top of Hachimon, Lee's speed will increase exponentially. Even though Madara was indeed glued in place when Lee bisected him, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say Lee could replicate that feat on _Tsunade_.

I don't recall if Lee possesses knowledge of Tsunade's regeneration factor; if he doesn't, Tsunade could potentially take Lee off-guard once he powers down as he'll assume Tsunade is beaten. Katsuyu suddenly appearing on the field won't go unnoticed by Lee, but if the slug acts quickly, she can envelop Tsunade (thus protecting her from Lee's attacks) and begin to work on repairing her master's body. 

Tsunade now gets another shot at Lee, and this time around, Katsuyu is already out to help her. She might be able to pull off a win in such a case.


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## ueharakk (May 20, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Outright wank, I actually remember in the last six months debunking this ridiculous notion when I clearly stated she had time to regenerate in a smoke cloud of debris. When are you going to concede that feature is invalid as a durability feature?


sure she could have had time to regenerate, however whatever damage that she did regenerate from was so insignificant that immediately after she comes out of the rubble it's completely gone all the while she's still has barely regenerated from the wound from madara's sword, a wound that she had even more time to regenerate from than yasaka magatama.

That's why your 'debunking this ridiculous notion' doesn't stand.



DaVizWiz said:


> She didn't tank that attack, she regenerated from it. More importantly, her body is ripped apart by a shock wave of a PS slash that didn't hit her directly- and failed to bisect anyone of the other Gokage.


You have zero proof or evidence that the shockwave of the PS slash is what ripped her in half.



DaVizWiz said:


> Her tanking/regenerating features are vague and inconsistent. I sincerely doubt she has the capacity to regenerate from full bisection before Lee stomps her brains into the soil, exploding her head.


Yeah she's not getting bisected as Kishi does not do that to the bodies of living human bodies.  A kick that would bisect Edo madara wouldn't bisect a living madara, instead it would just kill him.



DaVizWiz said:


> *You're welcome to provide the scans proving she tanked the attack without regenerating,* and without the proper timing to do such. Then, be sure to debunk how she manages to get her body split in half when the other four kages do not.


I think the logic of what I've posted goes to show that if she did regenerate from the attack, she didn't regenerate much.  And even if she did regenerate much, that just means that her regeneration is so great that if lee does kick her and if his kicks aren't much stronger than Mini YM, then it'll be as if she tanked the hit.

And I don't need to post how she gets her body split in half while the other kages don't since madara doing that was offpaneled.  It would be you who presupposes that Madara did that to the 5 kage with a single attack that has the burden of proof to support that presupposition. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Then, be sure to prove the mini yasaka magatamas have decent busting features, *as the larger variants don't even peak paper bomb explosive capacity- *something Lee could arguably replicate without even entering gates in KM Cloak.


The bolded is easily disproved by Madara's chaingun Magatama blowing open Gaara's mother defense and almost got through oonoki's wood golem.  

Now compare that to kid gaara's automatic defense blocking a crapton of paper bombs at point blank and coming out undented it's pretty clear that the magatamas are tiers beyond the power of paper bombs.

There are other examples as well like when Itachi used them on Kabuto.  Sasuke's susanoo arrow was representing kid sasuke's bow and arrow, thus Itachi's magatama should be scaled up accordingly to kid itachi's multi-paper bomb kunai.


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Tsunade wrecks lee.
> 
> She takes mini yasaka magatamas to the gut without any signs of damage.  Her hits are far more powerful than his even when he's cloaked (she blew madara up instead of just slicing him in half).



Kicking Madara in half is one heck of a feat considering this same Madara's body was capable of tanking the Raikage's hits.


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## LostSelf (May 20, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well, what are these doubts based on?  What do you think would have happened to edo madara if he was hit with a mini yasaka magatama right in the torso?



We don't know. That's why we can't gaugue the power of that Magatama. You can say that Tsunade is such a big tank that the attack did no damage. I can say that the attack was that weak to make notable damage and that was healed with byakugo faster than the stab she received.



> which means what?  That he blitzes her?  No, just being faster or even comfortably faster than someone is far off from being able to blitz them, and even if he can blitz her, she does the old tank and grab, or take a hit to make a hit strategy.



No, but means that his probability of having a clean hit or hitting her are bigger than hers. If he's not getting a clean shot, then she's hardly doing it. If she takes a hit attempting to grab him, she is one: cut in half or two: sent flying with probably more damage than Sasuke took when he received Killer Bee's lariat. Either way she's not grabbing his kick like doing it to a genin.



> He's not bisecting her, just like she's not going to make him explode into a bloody mess if she lands a hit on him.



If he lands a clean hit, yes. A log did it.



> Kishi only lets edo tenseis get bisected or blown to bits while he's a lot cleaner with live humans since it's a shounen manga.  That's why orochimaru's head didn't explode when tsunade punched him in the jaw during part 1, why sasuke's upper half of his body didn't go missing when bee sent a lariat into him, or why none of pain's bodys except the most durable, yet mechanical path gets oblitterated by a rasengan.



Yeah but that happens when he doesn't want a character to die that fast. That doesn't mean they can't be bisected. He just keeps them alive. He could've made Madara rampage and stomp them with PS and crush their heads if he wanted. But they had a role in the story.

Role no jutsu is not present here .


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## narut0ninjafan (May 20, 2013)

Tsunade has shown greater durability than Madara (tanking mini Magatamas), Kusanagi barely cutting her, teleporting barely cutting her. Plus, in this scenario she won't be attached to the ground like Madara was. Lee is not bisecting her. 

She lands a hit on him and he dies.


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## LostSelf (May 20, 2013)

In my eyes, tanking is taking no damage. Something she didn't with Kusanagi.

And something that is not proven with the Magatama since that jutsu has no feats other than speculation basing it on the big one and because she could've been regenerating once the was hit if Byakugo instantly begins to heal your damage,

Either way, the damage taken with the Mini Magatama was too weak or way weaker than the stab she received by something with less hype than the Kusanagi's cutting diamond's history when it comes to cutting.


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## Punished Pathos (May 20, 2013)

Read the Manga!

Madara couldn't defend against Lee's kick because he was connected to the Juubi.


Don't ignore it, its fact. 

Tsunade still wins 
She can outlast Lee.
Lee has nothing that can aide him against Tsunade's stamina and chakra.


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## Synn (May 20, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> In my eyes, tanking is taking no damage.



Do you know what a military tank is? That's where the word 'tanking' comes from.

Tanking means you can sustain a lot of damage, which Tsunade can. She is a living tank, actually.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 20, 2013)

Also, a log did not cut Tsunade in half. That doesn't even make sense . . how does one go about getting chopped in half by a heavy cylinderical object?

Seems like he just cut her in half somehow and then Kishimoto used the giant log to censor all of her guts that had splattered everywhere.​​


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## ueharakk (May 20, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> We don't know. That's why we can't gaugue the power of that Magatama.


We can sort of estimate its strength based on: scaling bigger yasaka magatamats or the resulting force it sent her into the boulders.

Bigger yasaka magatamas were able to damage gaara's mother defense, the resulting force was greater than what Asuma took from Chouji's Butterfly mode punch, or what Juugo took from Ei's elbow.



TheIronMan said:


> You can say that Tsunade is such a big tank that the attack did no damage. I can say that the attack was that weak to make notable damage and that was healed with byakugo faster than the stab she received.


Either way the result is the same: that with byakugo activated, she can take hits like that and come out unscathed either by durability or healing.



TheIronMan said:


> No, but means that his probability of having a clean hit or hitting her are bigger than hers.


I'd agree with this.



TheIronMan said:


> If he's not getting a clean shot, then she's hardly doing it. If she takes a hit attempting to grab him, she is one: cut in half or two: sent flying with probably more damage than Sasuke took when he received Killer Bee's lariat. Either way she's not grabbing his kick like doing it to a genin.


the distance one gets sent flying is somewhat relative to their physical power if they brace themselves for that hit.  So unless she's blitzed, as long as she's away of the hit and conscoiusly tries to take it, she is not going to be sent flying (unless she's in the air).

And Lee isn't doing more damage to a human than bee's lariat.  Bee is way physically more powerful than lee, had 3 tails and his lariat is more destructive than any hit we've seen from a human.




TheIronMan said:


> If he lands a clean hit, yes. A log did it.


1) don't know if the log was the actual thing that split her in half
2) did she even have byakugo activated when the 'log' split her?
3) if you put enough force behind the log I don't see why it couldn't split extremely durable shinobi.



TheIronMan said:


> Yeah but that happens when he doesn't want a character to die that fast. That doesn't mean they can't be bisected. He just keeps them alive. He could've made Madara rampage and stomp them with PS and crush their heads if he wanted. But they had a role in the story.


Madara deciding to rampage and stomp them is a matter of PIS, however humans taking the full force of attacks that would butcher ET is not PIS, those are feats.  And it's not about a character dieing that fast since naruto rasengans peins bodies and they die instantly, rasenganed shouten itachi and he died instantly, yet their bodies aren't mangled while he rasengans asura and the guy looked like a xenomorph hatched out of him.


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Also, a log did not cut Tsunade in half. That doesn't even make sense . . how does one go about getting chopped in half by a heavy cylinderical object?
> 
> Seems like he just cut her in half somehow and then Kishimoto used the giant log to censor all of her guts that had splattered everywhere.​​



It's like how you can squeeze jello between your fingers and split it in half.

That being said, I think the log may have just been put there as a "just in case" thing if she turned Byakugo back on, so that her muscle tissue didn't reach out and reattach her like Oro's snakes or something. Based on what Ay said, it seems that they really don't think she'll die with her regeneration active, so Madara would put some sort of measure in place to prevent her from regenerating.


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> In my eyes, tanking is taking no damage. Something she didn't with Kusanagi.



The fact that a diamond-cutting/stinging sword met enough resistance to not slice that far into her means she's got very impressive durability.

A _normal_ katana was able to slice clean through Danzo, and he was at least durable enough to get back up from one of Susano'o's punches.



> And something that is not proven with the Magatama since that jutsu has no feats other than speculation basing it on the big one and because she could've been regenerating once the was hit if Byakugo instantly begins to heal your damage.



The jutsu's feat is that it sent Tsunade into a large boulder so hard that Tsunade's body shattered said boulder. The impact Tsunade's body had with the boulder would have been less than the impact the actual Magatama would have had, which means that she took an attack that can easily shatter huge boulders.

We have no indication that the Magatama did anything to her to start her regeneration, but we know that it didn't hit her hard enough to tear through her clothes and such like Madara's other attacks did since she can't regenerate her clothes.

Consider along with that the fact that CST and all those buildings that fell on her didn't turn her into a pile of goo (when she was transferring all of her chakra to Katsuyu and the villagers as opposed to herself) and it just seems even more likely she straight up tanked it.



> Either way, the damage taken with the Mini Magatama was too weak or way weaker than the stab she received by something with less hype than the Kusanagi's cutting diamond's history when it comes to cutting.



It seems the Magatama was blunt force though, not piercing.

The Kusanagi was able to "pierce" Tsunade as well, but it met surprising resistance actually trying to "slash" her.

Ironically, Madara seemingly never tried actually _slashing_ her like Orochimaru did with the Kusanagi. Is it possible that he just figured it wouldn't work?


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## LostSelf (May 20, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Also, a log did not cut Tsunade in half. That doesn't even make sense . . how does one go about getting chopped in half by a heavy cylinderical object?​




We don't really know. If you can shoot fire from your eyes and have natural big boobs like Tsunade then it's not surprising if a log cut her in half.



> Seems like he just cut her in half somehow and then Kishimoto used the giant log to censor all of her guts that had splattered everywhere.


​
We don't know if that was his intention. He has shown heads flying all over twice in the manga, though.



Synn said:


> Do you know what a military tank is? That's where the word 'tanking' comes from.
> 
> Tanking means you can sustain a lot of damage, which Tsunade can. She is a living tank, actually.



Isn't that tank sustaining a lot of damage without breaking? Tsunade doesn't do what a military tank does. She gets hurt. She's a tank in her own rightb ecause she heals the damage, but not directly tanking the hits like a Military tank.



ueharakk said:


> We can sort of estimate its strength based on: scaling bigger yasaka magatamats or the resulting force it sent her into the boulders.
> 
> Bigger yasaka magatamas were able to damage gaara's mother defense, the resulting force was greater than what Asuma took from Chouji's Butterfly mode punch, or what Juugo took from Ei's elbow.



Yeah, we can. But she has survived and healed harder things before and shinobis have done before as well. I wouldn't compare it with Chouji's punch since i saw the Magatama exploding and Chouji, despite being determined to fight, could have only used the necessary strenght to take on Asuma.



> Either way the result is the same: that with byakugo activated, she can take hits like that and come out unscathed either by durability or healing.



Yes, she comes unscathed. But she has to heal the damage.



> the distance one gets sent flying is somewhat relative to their physical power if they brace themselves for that hit.  So unless she's blitzed, as long as she's away of the hit and conscoiusly tries to take it, she is not going to be sent flying (unless she's in the air).



The distance she can be sent flying depends on the force of the hit. I assumed this with Lee getting a clean shot on her or with her blocking the hit. I forgot to say that i measured this with cloacked Gated Lee.



> And Lee isn't doing more damage to a human than bee's lariat.  Bee is way physically more powerful than lee, had 3 tails and his lariat is more destructive than any hit we've seen from a human.



Kisame and Sasuke both were hit by lariats directly (Nagato as well, though) and the damage they sustained was no where near the damage Madara sustained when Lee kicked him. That's why i say that if Tsunade is not cut in half with the kick, heavy damage will be done to her. Somelthing like that Lariat or more.



> 1) don't know if the log was the actual thing that split her in half



What could've been then? If it was a sharp attack then Lee has what it takes to do it.



> 2) did she even have byakugo activated when the 'log' split her?



No. But Byakugo doesn't increase her durability. Only heals her.



> 3) if you put enough force behind the log I don't see why it couldn't split extremely durable shinobi.



Extremely durable, in my eyes, are the Raikages, though. I wouldn't put Tsunade in that level. Either way, cloaked Lee showcased enough force/sharpness to cut a person in half. And taking gates in consideration, i believe it.



> Madara deciding to rampage and stomp them is a matter of PIS, however humans taking the full force of attacks that would butcher ET is not PIS, those are feats.  And it's not about a character dieing that fast since naruto rasengans peins bodies and they die instantly, rasenganed shouten itachi and he died instantly, yet their bodies aren't mangled while he rasengans asura and the guy looked like a xenomorph hatched out of him.



But i'm not talking about PIS. They surviving can be plot as well. Following this, living Itachi would never be cut in half or his oponent would never try to do it. That has to do with the story and character's role. The reason only edo tenseis are cut in half is because they won't die and Kishi won't let a living character that he needs alive be cut in half. That doesn't mean Tsunade can't because she's alive.


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## LostSelf (May 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The fact that a diamond-cutting/stinging sword met enough resistance to not slice that far into her means she's got very impressive durability.



Yes, she's very durable. But we take in consideration Orochimaru's strenght as well. The blade pierced as easily as it pierced Hiruzen (I know this has nothing to do with cutting). Also, cloacked Lee has showcased more power than Orochimaru's blade. And has done much more considering that it even failed to pierce cloacked Naruto.



> A _normal_ katana was able to slice clean through Danzo, and he was at least durable enough to get back up from one of Susano'o's punches.



Izanagi saved Danzo as he was easily crushed by Susano'o's hand. And the normal Katana did nothing diferent to Hanzo than what the Kusanagi did to Tsunade.



> The jutsu's feat is that it sent Tsunade into a large boulder so hard that Tsunade's body shattered said boulder. The impact Tsunade's body had with the boulder would have been less than the impact the actual Magatama would have had, which means that she took an attack that can easily shatter huge boulders.



Falling hard into a boulder is good, but not enough to measure extreme durability. *The same Madara made an appearance shattering boulders only with his arrival*. She could've regenerated the damage while she was sent flying and on the floor before standing up. It couldn't pierce her while the blade did (If the jutsu is a piercing attack). 

And if that attack was healed that fast then it's strenght is nothingo f the other world.



> We have no indication that the Magatama did anything to her to start her regeneration, but we know that it didn't hit her hard enough to tear through her clothes and such like Madara's other attacks did since she can't regenerate her clothes.



She had Byakugo activated. It's very likely that the jutsu regenerated the damage. And if that attack couldn't damage her clothes, only leave dirt there then it's not very good.



> Consider along with that the fact that CST and all those buildings that fell on her didn't turn her into a pile of goo (when she was transferring all of her chakra to Katsuyu and the villagers as opposed to herself) and it just seems even more likely she straight up tanked it.



A lot of people without katsuyu survived that.



> It seems the Magatama was blunt force though, not piercing.


It's what i think. But most people here says it's piercing and that's why i talked about it like this since it doesn't affect the outcome. The other way around, if it's blunt force then it would be easier to heal.



> The Kusanagi was able to "pierce" Tsunade as well, but it met surprising resistance actually trying to "slash" her.


I didn't see resistance. Orochimaru slashed her easly.



> Ironically, Madara seemingly never tried actually _slashing_ her like Orochimaru did with the Kusanagi. Is it possible that he just figured it wouldn't work?



Or he never tried that. If we follow this logic we can say that Itachi never tried Susano'o with Kurenai because he thought it wouldn't work. Madara never used it on her because he never needed it or didn't even think about it.


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## ueharakk (May 20, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Yeah, we can. But she has survived and healed harder things before and shinobis have done before as well.


but we aren't talking about those instances since those instances would be things that pierce her.  We are talking about the mini yasaka magatama in order to compare it to lee's kick.



TheIronMan said:


> I wouldn't compare it with Chouji's punch since i saw the Magatama exploding and Chouji, despite being determined to fight, could have only used the necessary strenght to take on Asuma.


Why can't we compare it to chouji's punch if it explodes?  If the resulting explosion generates a force that sends her flying it's still comparable to the instantaneous force of a punch or a kick.




TheIronMan said:


> Yes, she comes unscathed. But she has to heal the damage.


which happens so quickly that the end result is pretty much the same as if she tanked the attack.




TheIronMan said:


> The distance she can be sent flying depends on the force of the hit. I assumed this with Lee getting a clean shot on her or with her blocking the hit. I forgot to say that i measured this with cloacked Gated Lee.


The force of the hit is just one of the factors, you also have to factor the strength/durability of the person getting hit as well.  That's why bee doesn't budge when sasuke kicks him in the neck, yet deidara is sent tumbling when sasuke punches him.




TheIronMan said:


> Kisame and Sasuke both were hit by lariats directly (Nagato as well, though) and the damage they sustained was no where near the damage Madara sustained when Lee kicked him. That's why i say that if Tsunade is not cut in half with the kick, heavy damage will be done to her. Somelthing like that Lariat or more.


but in order for that to work, you'd have to argue two points:
1) V1 lariat is as strong as Lee's kick
2) Tsunade is as durable as Sasuke

And Kisame wasn't hit by the lariat directly which is why you don't have to argue that point.  The lariat hit samehada, and the force that got through the sword hit kisame.




TheIronMan said:


> What could've been then? If it was a sharp attack then Lee has what it takes to do it.


er... susanoo swords used by PS, armored or giant susanoo?



TheIronMan said:


> No. But Byakugo doesn't increase her durability. Only heals her.


But her heal-factor is so great that it basically does increase her durability.



TheIronMan said:


> Extremely durable, in my eyes, are the Raikages, though. I wouldn't put Tsunade in that level. Either way, cloaked Lee showcased enough force/sharpness to cut a person in half. And taking gates in consideration, i believe it.


I wouldn't put tsunade on the Raikage's level either.




TheIronMan said:


> But i'm not talking about PIS. They surviving can be plot as well.


and how did they survive? by PIS, plot induced stupidity which is madara going easy on them, letting them live, not turning them into bloody stains after he defeated them.  They survived due to madara's decisionmaking.



TheIronMan said:


> Following this, living Itachi would never be cut in half or his oponent would never try to do it. That has to do with the story and character's role.


No, I didn't say that it's impossible to cut people in half, I just said that edo tenseis get mangled by attacks much easier than living shinobi.  FRS would cut a person in half, a big enough Susanoo sword would do it as well.  The thing is that it just takes a lot more power to cut a living person in half versus a dead one.



TheIronMan said:


> The reason only edo tenseis are cut in half is because they won't die and Kishi won't let a living character that he needs alive be cut in half. That doesn't mean Tsunade can't because she's alive.


I'm not saying she can't, however the force or power that it takes to cut a real person in half will be much greater than what it takes to cut an edo in half.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 20, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Yes, she's very durable. But we take in consideration Orochimaru's strenght as well. The blade pierced as easily as it pierced Hiruzen (I know this has nothing to do with cutting). Also, cloacked Lee has showcased more power than Orochimaru's blade. And has done much more considering that it even failed to pierce cloacked Naruto.



Oh, I'm not debating that Lee has it in him to bisect her; I already said that earlier in the thread. My contention is only with Kusanagi and the Magatama.



> Izanagi saved Danzo as he was easily crushed by Susano'o's hand. And the normal Katana did nothing diferent to Hanzo than what the Kusanagi did to Tsunade.



Well. . .Susano'o directly hit Danzo here buy some time , and he got back up here buy some time . It couldn't have been Izanagi that time because Izanagi causes Danzo's old body to disappear and reappear, and this Danzo just sat back up.

As for Kusanagi vs. Tsunade compared to Katana vs. Danzo:

Kusanagi barely dug into her shoulder bone buy some time , and if we look at the position at which Orochimaru and Tsunade are standing here buy some time we can see that he stepped forward enough for the blade to have reached behind her when he was performing the diagonal slash, meaning that it _should have_ removed her torso from her left shoulder to her right side, but it didn't.

Danzo on the other hand. . .buy some time , we can see that Sasuke's sword got all the way through because we even see blood coming from Danzo's back (behind his shoulder we see blood shooting diagonally away from him), as well as his arm having been taken off.



> Falling hard into a boulder is good, but not enough to measure extreme durability. *The same Madara made an appearance shattering boulders only with his arrival*. She could've regenerated the damage while she was sent flying and on the floor before standing up. *It couldn't pierce her while the blade did* (If the jutsu is a piercing attack).



He fell with a lot of force. . .what's your point exactly? Considering he just somehow zoomed from the Kages to Naruto, whatever method he used to get there had him going pretty dang fast. We saw Naruto break through the ground with speed when Kisame was escaping, so why not Madara?

If your point is that it should have hurt him: Madara tanked Ay's strikes, and Ay was making like 50ft pools when he hit the ground in his fight with Sasuke, so. . .I doubt it.

At the bolded: the blade had been removed already.



> A lot of people without katsuyu survived that.



Pretty sure Tsunade had Katsuyu cover everybody. Meanwhile Tsunade only had a palm sized Katsuyu with her.



> It's what i think. But most people here says it's piercing and that's why i talked about it like this since it doesn't affect the outcome. The other way around, if it's blunt force then it would be easier to heal.



I don't think it pierces. It could slice based on it's shape and what the other Magatama did (only difference should be size), but the _main_ thing about it, or at the very least least where the slice's power would come from, was the explosion.

But I think we went over this in another thread.  I just don't think it'd have healed, assuming anything happened, before the stab did since the stab was inflicted first.



> I didn't see resistance. Orochimaru slashed her easly.



Covered in the Sasuke/Danzo response above.



> Or he never tried that. If we follow this logic we can say that Itachi never tried Susano'o with Kurenai because he thought it wouldn't work. Madara never used it on her because he never needed it or didn't even think about it.



The difference is Madara had a reason to believe trying was useless. He knew Tsunade was durable, he knows piercing is easier to do than slashing, he went with what was more likely to work.

Itachi had no reason to believe Susano'o wouldn't work on Kurenai. He _did_ have a reason not to use it though, and that was because he needed to conserve his eyes and body.

That wasn't meant to be part of my case anyway, just a side thought.


----------



## LostSelf (May 20, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> but we aren't talking about those instances since those instances would be things that pierce her.  We are talking about the mini yasaka magatama in order to compare it to lee's kick.



There's not comparison. Lee's kick was much more impresive power wise.



> Why can't we compare it to chouji's punch if it explodes?  If the resulting explosion generates a force that sends her flying it's still comparable to the instantaneous force of a punch or a kick.



Because Chouji's punch's puch never generated an explosion. Now if we are talking about the force it was sent flying, then Asuma was being destroyed by that punch, Clashed against a very firm mountain (The first panel looks like that mountain was destroyed while the second looks diferent. But i won't get too deep into that) and considering Chouji's size compared to the others, the distance was fairly big.



> which happens so quickly that the end result is pretty much the same as if she tanked the attack.



Not the same because she has to use chakra for that and that is with some hits. The stab wound took it's seconds for that.



> The force of the hit is just one of the factors, you also have to factor the strength/durability of the person getting hit as well.  That's why bee doesn't budge when sasuke kicks him in the neck, yet deidara is sent tumbling when sasuke punches him.



That's a very big diference if we consider speed and strenght and Bee's weight. Sasuke's strenght is not comparable to a cloacked Gated Lee whose strenght should be enough to send her flying.



> but in order for that to work, you'd have to argue two points:
> 
> 1) V1 lariat is as strong as Lee's kick



It has shown less destructive feat than cloacked Lee (Though Lee's attacks are piercing while Lariat is blunt force. It just helps Lee here).



> 2) Tsunade is as durable as Sasuke



It does make a diference. But not enough as to say his kick won't cut her specially when he is in gates.



> And Kisame wasn't hit by the lariat directly which is why you don't have to argue that point.  The lariat hit samehada, and the force that got through the sword hit kisame


.

Indeed. Yet, Madara is more durable than Sasuke and was easily cut in half.



> er... susanoo swords used by PS, armored or giant susanoo?



PS was likely not used again.. Armored Susano'o or giant is a given. That just shows she can be cut. And cloacked Lee has shown cutting attacks. 



> But her heal-factor is so great that it basically does increase her durability.



It increases her durability in some ways. But it doesn't prevent her from taking damage. And i seriously doubt she can regrow legs.




> and how did they survive? by PIS, plot induced stupidity which is madara going easy on them, letting them live, not turning them into bloody stains after he defeated them.  They survived due to madara's decisionmaking.



Exactly.



> No, I didn't say that it's impossible to cut people in half, I just said that edo tenseis get mangled by attacks much easier than living shinobi.  FRS would cut a person in half, a big enough Susanoo sword would do it as well.  The thing is that it just takes a lot more power to cut a living person in half versus a dead one.
> 
> I'm not saying she can't, however the force or power that it takes to cut a real person in half will be much greater than what it takes to cut an edo in half.



For that to be true, Edo Tensei should have less durability than living people and this has not been proven. It doesn't take more power to cut a living being. They are just protected by plot. And this is not present here.


----------



## bleakwinter (May 20, 2013)

*Tsunade wins*

Upon closer inspection, it doesn't even appear that Lee's kick actually bisected Madara. It simply took a large chunk out of his right side. Lee even states, "I'll flank his right side" (1). In addition, at no point was Madara's upper half actually separated from his lower half in any of the later panels. When Kabuto bisected Itachi, the reader can clearly see Itachi's upper half separated from his lower. Additionally, after Itachi was bisected, he simply began regenerating a new lower half (2) . Neither of those were witnessed against Madara, which is fairly strong evidence for the fact that he wasn't totally bisected. With Madara, you can still physically see that the other side of Madara's waist is still attached to his body during the kick (3). In all honestly, Byakugo should have little difficulty with regenerating Tsunade's right side. However, since most of the Lee proponents here seem intent on the fact that Lee had actually bisected someone with his kick (Even though I don't believe so), then I will simply balance my argument around that assumption. 

The easier (and more erroneous) route would be to propose that Lee simply bisects Tsunade with him shrouded kick. The more involved (and more accurate) route would be to point out the stipulations that Lee had in his favor that allowed him to kick Madara in half, as well as why it cannot occur here against Tsunade. First and foremost, Lee was already being accelerated in flight by Naruto's bird-formation (4)(Which was fast enough to cover a massive distance in only mere seconds). Second, Lee was also given a boost by Gai (4) (Who was also enhanced by the shroud himself as well). Excluding the shroud itself, Lee had a total of two whole external factors that bolstered his striking power to the point of being able to bisect a human with a kick.

Having cleared that up, Tsunade should have few problems outlasting either Lee's shroud or gate. He simply doesn't have the destructive capability to damage her enough until Byakyugo's runs out through attrition. Blunt Taijutsu attacks will fail to do any meaningful damage to Tsunade. Gai is a much more powerful Taijutsu fighter than Lee by comparison, and even a direct kick to the head by Gai's gated strike only managed to cause some bleeding (5). After taking into account that lee is far weaker than Gai coupled with the fact that the victim has a healing factor, the result should be obvious. On the reverse, Lee's speed (Which is temporary) is really the only thing protecting him from Tsunade. Although Naruto's shroud does offer protective capabilities, it's rather questionable how well Kyubi shroud can protect against Tsunade's punch when even ribcage Susanoo had faltered from her strength.


----------



## Synn (May 20, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Isn't that tank sustaining a lot of damage without breaking? Tsunade doesn't do what a military tank does. She gets hurt. She's a tank in her own rightb ecause she heals the damage, but not directly tanking the hits like a Military tank.



Even military tanks can break, trust me.  But I used the words 'living tank' for a reason...

When it comes to bodies, one is said to be a tank when they can sustain enough damage and keep fighting. How many times have you seen Tsunade get worn out because of an attack? Only when she was bissected. And even then, she managed to summon Katsuyu and it was implied that she still had enough strength to heal the other Kages.

While I do understand that OP was trying to make this fair for Lee, Tsunade is just a terrible match up for him. She tanked Susano just fine, and I don't see cloaked Lee dealing much more damage than that.

*Lee gets obliterated horribly.*


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## Okodi (May 20, 2013)

With no restrictions my man *Lee uses all Eight Gates* along with the incredible  feats of *being cloaked* and makes a kamikaze 

And with the personality that Tsunade has about down-talking others and mock their ways, Lee will not hesitate to use his gates to defend his nindo. 

But according to the manga he will fail in doing so


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## ueharakk (May 21, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> There's not comparison. Lee's kick was much more impresive power wise.


that's just a baseless assertion unless you can give evidence as to why lee's kick was more impressive.  I on the other hand have given you my evidence.




TheIronMan said:


> Because Chouji's punch's puch never generated an explosion. *Now if we are talking about the force it was sent flying*, then Asuma was being destroyed by that punch, Clashed against a very firm mountain (The first panel looks like that mountain was destroyed while the second looks diferent. But i won't get too deep into that) and considering Chouji's size compared to the others, the distance was fairly big.


Chouji's punch doesn't have to generate the explosion, the bolded is what I was always arguing.  If mini YM sends tsunade away with more force than chouji's punch, then it's a more powerful attack especially since it's smaller than his punch.



TheIronMan said:


> Not the same because she has to use chakra for that and that is with some hits. The stab wound took it's seconds for that.


So it's tanking a technique which costs chakra....




TheIronMan said:


> That's a very big diference if we consider speed and strenght and Bee's weight. Sasuke's strenght is not comparable to a cloacked Gated Lee whose strenght should be enough to send her flying.


You're attacking a strawman.  I'm not comparing gated lee's strength to Sasuke's, all the example goes to show is that the distance a target is sent flying is dependent on a couple of factors 2 of which are the strength and durability of the target.  That's why I showed you sasuke vs deidara and sasuke vs bee.  Same attacker, different target, different results.




TheIronMan said:


> It has shown less destructive feat than cloacked Lee (Though Lee's attacks are piercing while Lariat is blunt force. It just helps Lee here).


No way does *Lariat* show less destructive force that cloaked lee.  



TheIronMan said:


> It does make a diference. But not enough as to say his kick won't cut her specially when he is in gates.


well you'd have to support this assertion with an argument, because I have done so for the counterargument which is bringing up Yasaka magatama.

.


TheIronMan said:


> Indeed. Yet, Madara is more durable than Sasuke and was easily cut in half.


and that's just because edo tenseis get butchered by attacks far more than living people do.  Had madara been alive, he'd die, but he'd probably get a bloody torso instead of getting bisected.




TheIronMan said:


> PS was likely not used again.. Armored Susano'o or giant is a given. That just shows she can be cut. And cloacked Lee has shown cutting attacks.


No one has ever argued that tsunade can't be cut, however if you want to use that to support your argument, you'd have to argue that the cutting power of lee's kicks are comparable to armored or giant susanoos.




TheIronMan said:


> It increases her durability in some ways. But it doesn't prevent her from taking damage. And i seriously doubt she can regrow legs.


I'm not sure if she can regrow legs either, however I'm on the fence about this as she's shown the ability to regrow spinal tissue.





TheIronMan said:


> For that to be true, Edo Tensei should have less durability than living people and this has not been proven. It doesn't take more power to cut a living being. They are just protected by plot. And this is not present here.


Or for that to be true, the durability of edo tenseis drastically decrease once they have taken lethal damage.  

Now, what about your own stance.  In order for that to be true, edo muu would have to be a couple of tiers more durable than any of the paths of pain since he gets holes punched into him by small rasengans while the paths barely show any external damage.

For your own stance to be true, fodder alliance members would have to be tiers more durable that Dan or Kakuzu, *since Dan gets torn up and kakuzu gets part of his head removed *by GM's shockwave despite the later being far away from GM's shockwave (he was next to darui).

For your stance to be true, Sandaime Raikage would *liquify in real life* after getting shanked by his own nukite.


----------



## Arles Celes (May 21, 2013)

Slicing an immobile Madara in half isn't that impressive. Madara also never fought seriously against the Alliance.

Tsunade has a super haxxed regeneration and her hits are way stronger than even Raikage's. And she won't stand still while Lee moves at her.

If Lee was so broken then the powered Alliance would have defeated Obito and Madara off panel. Despite the increase in raw power the Alliance still wasn't at Madara's and Obito's level and the cloaks were used mostly defensively after the 2 bad guys were separated from Juubi.

Even Gates won't save Lee from Tsunade. It is incredible how underestimated the gokage are around here just because they lost to Madara. The most underrated guys EVER.


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## Doge (May 21, 2013)

Arles Celes said:


> Slicing an immobile Madara in half isn't that impressive. Madara also never fought seriously against the Alliance.
> 
> Tsunade has a super haxxed regeneration and her hits are way stronger than even Raikage's. And she won't stand still while Lee moves at her.
> 
> ...



Speed and reaction feats from Tsunade?  If you think gated Lee can't avoid Tsunade's punch with the cloak, then I wonder what manga you're reading.


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## Butterfly (May 22, 2013)

kresh said:


> Speed and reaction feats from Tsunade?  If you think gated Lee can't avoid Tsunade's punch with the cloak, then I wonder what manga you're reading.



I dont' think Tsunade would have enough speed to deal with gated Lee, but I do think that, if Lee strikes at her, there's a possibility she might be able to time the strike well enough to create chaos. Lee's speed (as detailed by Bleakwinter's post) was enhanced in two different ways. Additionally, Tsunade is a master at careful striking and counter striking. She's also something of a tank. If Lee runs up to her with enough momentum, he suddenly can't change directions without his body slowing down enough to move itself first. That's just how physics work. In the time Lee's inertia is taking him forward, she can strike and kill for a tie (or a win when it turns out she can live under the conditions of being half the woman she used to be). 

As for tsunade avoiding his punches? That's a hell no, which is why the OP said she can punch him, not avoid him. There's a difference.



DaVizWiz said:


> Gated Lee should be able to blitz her. Her only chance is through Katsuya, who suggested she could stitch her back in half.
> 
> The only question is whether or not Tsunade would jump to summoning her before attempting to take Lee out first.
> 
> ...


Lee won't think twice about her regenerating. The other kage were immobilized briefly and, it'll take Tsunade a little time to recover. By the time Lee realizes that Tsunade can somehow live split apart, it's almost over. Tsunade should be able to just regenerate herself, but I'll believe she'll summon Katsuyu and have her absorb her (which is implied to be a pretty quick absorption).

Then comes the fun, Lee will be pounding away at Katsuyu until the Uchihas come home, but to no avail. By the time Tsunade's back out on the field, she'll probably be activating byakugo or she might take a more intelligent approach by having Katsuyu spit acid point blank which, despite Lee's almighty speed feats, I dont' see him dodging things that happen, are produced, and launched at a huge amount of volume, right in front of him. 



TheIronMan said:


> I seriously doubt that a mini featless Magatama can compare to Lee's power in this shroud and i doubt that he would have any trouble cutting her in half. Also cloacked Lee was moving as fast as a FRS just jumping, or to put it this way, was probably moving faster than base Gai can, who is confortably faster than her.
> 
> Manga knowledge makes torso Tsunade hitting Lee impossible if she fails to do so before she gets kicked and i seriously doubt that Byakugo can regrow her new legs like Piccollo.


I doubt that a Magatama does compare to Lee's power in shroud, but, I think it's not necessarily featless. Itachi hyped it as Susanno's longest range attacks so it does contain validity of Tsunade being able to take that attack. That said, I don't think she regenerated from it either, since her stomach wounds were still regenerating and, from my thoughts, I believe getting slammed in the head would take longer to heal than getting stabbed in the stomach. 

I think Tsunade can regrow limbs. I mean, she outright suggested it against Orochimaru stating she can outright heal and reconstruct limbs, and, she's regenerated everything a limb comprises of (read: flesh, bone, muscle).



The World said:


> Tsunade gets bisected
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The 1% are the people that can survive bisection. 






Like Tsunade. 



DaVizWiz said:


> She didn't tank that attack, she regenerated from it. More importantly, her body is ripped apart by a shock wave of a PS slash that didn't hit her directly- and failed to bisect anyone of the other Gokage.
> 
> Her tanking/regenerating features are vague and inconsistent. I sincerely doubt she has the capacity to regenerate from full bisection before Lee stomps her brains into the soil, exploding her head.
> 
> You're welcome to provide the scans proving she tanked the attack without regenerating, and without the proper timing to do such. Then, be sure to debunk how she manages to get her body split in half when the other four kages do not. Then, be sure to prove the mini yasaka magatamas have decent busting features, as the larger variants don't even peak paper bomb explosive capacity- something Lee could arguably replicate without even entering gates in KM Cloak.


When was her body ripped apart from a shockwave? I legitimately do not remember this.

however, I don't think she's split apart because of Madara's initial attack. Madara made it clear that, as a Senju descendent, she would be the one to experience death first, and would make that death humiliating and painful. Getting split in half and pinned down by your granddaddy's jutsu certainly fulfills all of those parameters. I'm not objecting to what you say, but, as most of this transpired off screen and Tsunade has more severe injuries than stab wounds (and Gaara who, interestingly, has his gourd holder piercing his body), I don't find this consistent with your idea that it was a shockwave, especially since Madara has Lots of Feelings about Tsunade and Senjus.


----------



## Doge (May 22, 2013)

Butterfly said:


> I dont' think Tsunade would have enough speed to deal with gated Lee, but I do think that, if Lee strikes at her, there's a possibility she might be able to time the strike well enough to create chaos. Lee's speed (as detailed by Bleakwinter's post) was enhanced in two different ways. Additionally, Tsunade is a master at careful striking and counter striking. She's also something of a tank. If Lee runs up to her with enough momentum, he suddenly can't change directions without his body slowing down enough to move itself first. That's just how physics work. In the time Lee's inertia is taking him forward, she can strike and kill for a tie (or a win when it turns out she can live under the conditions of being half the woman she used to be).
> 
> As for tsunade avoiding his punches? That's a hell no, which is why the OP said she can punch him, not avoid him. There's a difference.



I don't remember Tsunade ever being excellent at striking quickly.  She usually has to emphasize the punching motion whenevver she attacks.  

Has she ever actually counter-attacked to something like Lee's speed?  Where she'd be fatally wounded after the attack?  Could she tank a beheading move, like a Kick to the head?

And what happens if Lee lets out a flurry of punches/kicks on Tsunade without room for counterattack?


----------



## Jad (May 22, 2013)

Butterfly, Physics are great, but you have to remember. Lee had a full conversation with Sasuke in mid-air


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## Butterfly (May 22, 2013)

kresh said:


> I don't remember Tsunade ever being excellent at striking quickly.  She usually has to emphasize the punching motion whenevver she attacks.
> 
> Has she ever actually counter-attacked to something like Lee's speed?  Where she'd be fatally wounded after the attack?  Could she tank a beheading move, like a Kick to the head?
> 
> And what happens if Lee lets out a flurry of punches/kicks on Tsunade without room for counterattack?



Well, she's pretty agile when it comes to striking quickly, being able to demonstrate counter attacks[1] despite being out of breath[2] and against an opponent with full energy[3] after being placed in an awkward position[4].

This isn't counting her agile attack on being able to snatch Naruto's kunai from him whilst drunk after twenty+ years of inactivity, nor is it counting her being able to land a strike on Orochimaru while he was watching her with three stab wounds, and torn muscles which severely hindered her movement. This also doesn't count her attacking Kabuto after taking an attack that severely restricted mobility. 

Finally, she was also able to counter attack in legion with Onoki and the Raikage and is able to attack a Susanno that, during the briefest of moments the Raikage paused, was able to capture him. She may not be a speedster but she's certainly not slow and can adequate position herself for a counter attack based on what approach Lee takes (which will be his usual liner blitz attempts). 

As for your second point, why would Lee do that ICly? He has no idea about Tsunade's skills besides "fantastic medic" and, even then, this knowledge wasn't great enough for _Orochimaru_ of all people to guess she could regenerate, so I highly doubt Lee will do so. Lee might also be going too fast to adequately aim for Tsunade's head, ala Sasuke and Chidori before Sharingan.  Finally, she will not be fatally wounded before her fist flies a couple of feet or inches into Lee's head. If she survived being chopped in half, I doubt she'll die from getting slightly gored by Rock Lee's kick (she won't even be chopped in half, as highlighted in an earlier post about Madara). 



Jad said:


> Butterfly, Physics are great, but you have to remember. Lee had a full conversation with Sasuke in mid-air



Relevance? Kishmoto may not obey all of the laws of physics but talking is a free action in Naruto (and most shonen) anyways. Kishimoto, however, does obey the laws of physics when it counts. When ninja evade attacks, they sometimes slide to a stop and that's a demonstration of inertia and friction - which slows a person down to a stop. If inertia didn't exist, they'd be able to stop without extra force moving them onwards. Their stops would be completely clean.

Additionally, without inertia, ninja would be able to change positions in midair once they jump. We all know this isn't true. Hence, Lee will be going too fast to adequately stop himself in time.

Either way, physics will be staying for this match, tyvm.


----------



## Okodi (May 22, 2013)

Jad said:


> Butterfly, Physics are great, but you have to remember. Lee had a full conversation with Sasuke in mid-air


Lee had a fast mouth and Sasuke could read it with his Sharingan 


Problem solved


----------



## joshhookway (May 23, 2013)

How does Tsunade tank a kick to the head?


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## Innerhype (May 23, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> How does Tsunade tank a kick to the head?



She does or doesn't really, it depends on your definition of the word since there seem to always be some confusion.

A direct kick to head here will  result in EXTREME cranial damage that'll leave someone who is incapable of mitigating this kind of damage dead or very close to it.

The thing is Tsunade is in possession of a technique that is capable of damage mitigation that'll allow her to survive an attack like that...


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> How does Tsunade tank a kick to the head?



How does Lee land said kick? I have no doubt he has the speed to do so, but, ICly, he targeted Madara Uchiha, the legendarily feared ninja's side. Additionally, he might be going too fast to accurately target things, ala Kakashi with Chidori. I don't think a head kick is coming into play here, especially since, I believe, Lee will be fighting mostly on instinct.


----------



## Innerhype (May 24, 2013)

Butterfly said:


> How does Lee land said kick? I have no doubt he has the speed to do so, but, ICly, he targeted Madara Uchiha, the legendarily feared ninja's side. Additionally, he might be going too fast to accurately target things, ala Kakashi with Chidori. I don't think a head kick is coming into play here, especially since, I believe, Lee will be fighting mostly on instinct.



He wouldn't attack in the manner Chidora-users do. Foremost you have to know that Rock Lee is a taijutsu master which is reflected in his stats in the databooks and in his brief showings in part 2, he is never shown relying just on instinct which doesn't speak at all to his character or style (unless he's drunk that is). Instead, Lee is shown very sharp and knowledgeable despite popluar believe like when he explained the workings of the Hyuga style, countered Dosu after seeing his attack once, or worked over the Sharingan.

I agree that a head kick won't come into play atleast initially, Lee was essentially bloodlusted when he kicked through Madara and though Tsunade is extremely dangerous he'll have to be in that state of mind to breakout with an attack like that from the get-go even against her.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2013)

Innerhype said:


> He wouldn't attack in the manner Chidora-users do. Foremost you have to know that Rock Lee is a taijutsu master which is reflected in his stats in the databooks and in his brief showings in part 2, he is never shown relying just on instinct which doesn't speak at all to his character or style (unless he's drunk that is). Instead, Lee is shown very sharp and knowledgeable despite popluar believe like when he explained the workings of the Hyuga style, countered Dosu after seeing his attack once, or worked over the Sharingan.
> 
> I agree that a head kick won't come into play atleast initially, Lee was essentially bloodlusted when he kicked through Madara and though Tsunade is extremely dangerous he'll have to be in that state of mind to breakout with an attack like that from the get-go even against her.



I didn't mean instinct in an animal way. I meant instinct in a way that's like how people duck whenever someone swings at them, or how people instantly protect their faces or something similar.  However, you're forgetting that Lee's manner of attack wasn't what I was focusing on - the massive amounts of speed are my main concern and his ability to see through them (again, Kakashi had to activate Sharingan to keep track of Lee's moments). His fighting spirit allows him to move almost seamlessly and without thought in his battles, even to the extent where he's willing and allowing to fight unconscious, which is what I was going to.

Taijutsu is such an amazing part of him that it requires no excess thought for himself to perform adequately, much like Tsunade and her healing. I agree, he's an intelligent man who can make strategic decisions, but, for the most part, he doesn't _need_ to make them because fighting efficiently is like breathing air. I wasn't knocking Lee in any way, I was just stating that he's more than likely to go about things with his natural thoughts than immediately aim for the head.


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## joshhookway (May 24, 2013)

Lee has knowledge and gates though


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Lee has knowledge and gates though



Manga knowledge means he knows she's an exceptional healer and fighter and that's it. He might also know something about Katsuyu's... size matters but, I don't think he knows anything about her regeneration and I would appreciate some verification on that matter since I don't believe that myself.


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## joshhookway (May 24, 2013)

Lee is extremely fast though, Tsunade is no where near his speed.


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## Okodi (May 25, 2013)

Butterfly said:


> Manga knowledge means he knows she's an exceptional healer and fighter and that's it. He might also know something about Katsuyu's... size matters but, I don't think he knows anything about her regeneration and I would appreciate some verification on that matter since I don't believe that myself.



I would think that he knows something about her having regeneration since she did perfom surgery. Though, as Jiraya stated shinobi (off his time) didn't go around showcasing their moves. A more extreme version of this was shown by Madara and Hashirama not even sharing their surnames. 



joshhookway said:


> Lee is extremely fast though, Tsunade is no where near his speed.



I always say, you have to differentiate between movement speed and combat speed or else we would have to put Lee (based on movement speed) above ALL Sand ninjas. Lee is going to be extremely fast with gates and cloak. I acknowledge that, but he won't kill Tsunade with a speed blitz.


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## Mithos (May 25, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Lee is extremely fast though, Tsunade is no where near his speed.



So fast he won't be able to react to her counter-attack as he charges, so he runs into her fist and dies


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## LostSelf (May 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's just a baseless assertion unless you can give evidence as to why lee's kick was more impressive.  I on the other hand have given you my evidence.



It dealt more lethal damage in someone with greater durability than Sasuke.



> Chouji's punch doesn't have to generate the explosion, the bolded is what I was always arguing.  If mini YM sends tsunade away with more force than chouji's punch, then it's a more powerful attack especially since it's smaller than his punch.



Indeed. However, the distance Asuma traveled to clahs was greater than Tsunade's. If i recall correctly. I'm to lazy to find that YM scan.



> So it's tanking a technique which costs chakra....



That doesn't make it more powerful. Gai's doesn't take chakra and his attacks are more powerful than a lot of chakra based attacks.



> You're attacking a strawman.  I'm not comparing gated lee's strength to Sasuke's, all the example goes to show is that the distance a target is sent flying is dependent on a couple of factors 2 of which are the strength and durability of the target.  That's why I showed you sasuke vs deidara and sasuke vs bee.  Same attacker, different target, different results.



You are not. What i'm saying is that cloacked Gated Lee has the power to send her flying with his hits.



> No way does *Lariat* show less destructive force that cloaked lee.



My bad there. 



> well you'd have to support this assertion with an argument, because I have done so for the counterargument which is bringing up Yasaka magatama.



Cutting someone in half maybe. 



> and that's just because edo tenseis get butchered by attacks far more than living people do.  Had madara been alive, he'd die, but he'd probably get a bloody torso instead of getting bisected.



I disagree. Kishi lets that happen because they are dead and would regenerate. This doesn't affect in any shape or form the durability of the fighter. Dead or alive. Living or not, he would've ben bisected.




> No one has ever argued that tsunade can't be cut, however if you want to use that to support your argument, you'd have to argue that the cutting power of lee's kicks are comparable to armored or giant susanoos.



I said if she's not cut, she would take damage similar or bigger than a Lariat in terms of cutting and damage. Something logical unless Tsunade has Sandaime Raikage's durability. Something she doesn't have.



> I'm not sure if she can regrow legs either, however I'm on the fence about this as she's shown the ability to regrow spinal tissue.



Remind me when.




> Or for that to be true, the durability of edo tenseis drastically decrease once they have taken lethal damage.



That is not proven.



> Now, what about your own stance.  In order for that to be true, edo muu would have to be a couple of tiers more durable than any of the paths of pain since he gets holes punched into him by small rasengans while the paths barely show any external damage.



Like i said, plot. Edo Tenseis are granted to take damage because they won't die. They would regenerate and will not affect the story.



> For your own stance to be true, fodder alliance members would have to be tiers more durable that Dan or Kakuzu, *since Dan gets torn up and kakuzu gets part of his head removed *by GM's shockwave despite the later being far away from GM's shockwave (he was next to darui).



Read above.



> For your stance to be true, Sandaime Raikage would *liquify in real life* after getting shanked by his own nukite.



All i see there is what happens when they Edos take damage. If his durability was decreased, Naruto wouldn't have to attack his exact same spot and probably his FRS would've done the job. Edos being cut, like i said, is because Kishi lets it since they won't die and he can't afford living characters being cut. This has nothing to do with durability.

It's the reason why he let Itachi be cut, stabbed, etc and it's the reason why he let Madara be cut. It has not been stated otherwise save plot.


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## LostSelf (May 25, 2013)

Butterfly said:


> I doubt that a Magatama does compare to Lee's power in shroud, but, I think it's not necessarily featless. Itachi hyped it as Susanno's longest range attacks so it does contain validity of Tsunade being able to take that attack. That said, I don't think she regenerated from it either, since her stomach wounds were still regenerating and, from my thoughts, I believe getting slammed in the head would take longer to heal than getting stabbed in the stomach.



I said it's featless because it's only hit did nothing and it's not very comparable to other attacks. However, i would never diminish Tsunade's tanking prowess. She has shown to be above anyone save the Raikages and Nagato (Considering that the lariat he received did nothing to him, though). and probably Hashirama and SM Naruto. 

She has been hit by far greater power than this. Wich is why i diminish the Magatama's power a bit and i wouldn't use it to say she can't get hurt by some more powerful attacks (like Cloacked gated Lee, for example).



> I think Tsunade can regrow limbs. I mean, she outright suggested it against Orochimaru stating she can outright heal and reconstruct limbs, and, she's regenerated everything a limb comprises of (read: flesh, bone, muscle).



My memory is hazy (for real). I don't know if i'm more than distracted, but would you remind me when she grew new bones?

Sorry for the late response, FlamingRain.



FlamingRain said:


> Oh, I'm not debating that Lee has it in him to bisect her; I already said that earlier in the thread. My contention is only with Kusanagi and the Magatama.



Oh, my bad then.



> Well. . .Susano'o directly hit Danzo here *liquify in real life* , and he got back up here *liquify in real life* . It couldn't have been Izanagi that time because Izanagi causes Danzo's old body to disappear and reappear, and this Danzo just sat back up.



If you see, Karin is counting there and that implies that Danzo was in Izanagi still and he could survive the hits.



> As for Kusanagi vs. Tsunade compared to Katana vs. Danzo:
> 
> Kusanagi barely dug into her shoulder bone *liquify in real life* , and if we look at the position at which Orochimaru and Tsunade are standing here *liquify in real life* we can see that he stepped forward enough for the blade to have reached behind her when he was performing the diagonal slash, meaning that it _should have_ removed her torso from her left shoulder to her right side, but it didn't.



We'll have diferent opinions there. Because i saw it like some slashes. However, Oro's words before cutting her implies he was attempting to kill her so it's very plausible. No one there, not even Oro, was surprised that she was not cut completely from such a hyped blade.



> Danzo on the other hand. . .*liquify in real life* , we can see that Sasuke's sword got all the way through because we even see blood coming from Danzo's back (behind his shoulder we see blood shooting diagonally away from him), as well as his arm having been taken off.



They were very close and Sasuke was barely starting his slash *liquify in real life*. He had more a bigger size of the blade available to cut him. And the blood in that panel comes from the angles Sasuke cut him, not from the back. Danzo was not cut in half. Also, the angles of both attacks (Orochimaru and Sasuke's) are diferent. However, i do agree that Tsunade is miles above Danzo when it comes to tanking.



> He fell with a lot of force. . .what's your point exactly? Considering he just somehow zoomed from the Kages to Naruto, whatever method he used to get there had him going pretty dang fast. We saw Naruto break through the ground with speed when Kisame was escaping, so why not Madara?



Yeah, but Naruto broke his ancle due to the sheer force. However the point being that Mini YM being strong because it generated a force strong enough to send her flying and shatter boulders, yeah. It's a good feat. But not enough to compare it to Madara being bisected.



> If your point is that it should have hurt him: Madara tanked Ay's strikes, and Ay was making like 50ft pools when he hit the ground in his fight with Sasuke, so. . .I doubt it.



That was not my point. My point was that falling hard into boulders is not something to be amazed of in NV. (I've always said this, Shinra Tensei's power, for example).



> At the bolded: the blade had been removed already.



Yeah. It's an example of why Mini Magatama is not a piercing attack or if it is, it's not that strong.





> Pretty sure Tsunade had Katsuyu cover everybody. Meanwhile Tsunade only had a palm sized Katsuyu with her.



I recall people not covered by Katsuyu. Like here *liquify in real life*. The ANBU with her didn't have it and were ok as well.



> I don't think it pierces. It could slice based on it's shape and what the other Magatama did (only difference should be size), but the _main_ thing about it, or at the very least least where the slice's power would come from, was the explosion.



Agree.



> But I think we went over this in another thread.  I just don't think it'd have healed, assuming anything happened, before the stab did since the stab was inflicted first.



The stab wound could've been harder to heal. However in my eyes, tanking it is very likely as well. Of all this, what i doubt very much is the MY's power.



> The difference is Madara had a reason to believe trying was useless. He knew Tsunade was durable, he knows piercing is easier to do than slashing, he went with what was more likely to work.



There's a diference, yeah. But he was so strong compared to her that if he wanted, he could've forced her. Also, the Raikage was more bothersome to him considering his speed compared to the others and Susano'o. But still i don't find this accurate because the same could be said about cutting Tsunade in half and not the others. Considering Madara was toying with them, i go with him not doing it. As simple as that.



> Itachi had no reason to believe Susano'o wouldn't work on Kurenai. He _did_ have a reason not to use it though, and that was because he needed to conserve his eyes and body.


Yeah, but we can make more examples based on this. 



> That wasn't meant to be part of my case anyway, just a side thought.



I know. I was just bringing that up.


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## Butterfly (May 25, 2013)

Okodi said:


> I would think that he knows something about her having regeneration since she did perfom surgery. Though, as Jiraya stated shinobi (off his time) didn't go around showcasing their moves. A more extreme version of this was shown by Madara and Hashirama not even sharing their surnames.



Performing surgery does not mean Lee would know about her secret techniques. for example, Orochimaru possesses an intimate knowledge of Tsunade's medical ninjutsu - hence he asked her to heal his damaged arms. However, even he was surprised that Tsunade created a jutsu that could regenerate her. If Orochimaru, who is much more intelligent then Lee and knows a lot more about Tsunade then Lee, couldn't make the jump then I don't think he'll be able to make it.


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## Okodi (May 25, 2013)

Butterfly said:


> Performing surgery does not mean Lee would know about her secret techniques. for example, Orochimaru possesses an intimate knowledge of Tsunade's medical ninjutsu - hence he asked her to heal his damaged arms. However, even he was surprised that Tsunade created a jutsu that could regenerate her. If Orochimaru, who is much more intelligent then Lee and knows a lot more about Tsunade then Lee, couldn't make the jump then I don't think he'll be able to make it.


I'm not saying he knows her secret techniques. I'm saying that he could know something about her having regeneration type abilities without knowing that she indeed has it or know how it works. Considering he has mastered the 8 gates and can open the Wound gate which regenerates it wouldn't be far fetched for him to imagine that the most renowned medical ninja has some regeneration ability along with healing jutsus.

Note that I also said that Jiraya stated "Ninja's shouldn't go around showcasing their jutsu" meaning I'm not saying he (Lee) would be able to say "Tsunade, you have the Byakugo". Orochimaru being surprised doesn't mean he couldn't imagine it. He had Kabuto on his side who could do the same. For instance, Hiruzen was surprised when he learnt about Orochimaru completing the his immortality jutsu even though he had the idea that Orochimaru was attempting to do so.

You missed everything I wrote after surgery or you misinterpreted what I meant. What I meant is that Lee is might have no problem imagining her having regeneration. How he would react upon seeing it though I don't know. And with me using Jiraya's statement I insinuated that Lee would never know the actual technique since the Sannins' generation thought that showcasing your jutsus was a stupid and uncareful thing to do.


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## FlamingRain (May 25, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Sorry for the late response, FlamingRain.



It's all good.



> If you see, Karin is counting there and that implies that Danzo was in Izanagi still and he could survive the hits.



Karin was counting the period between one eye closing and another. After being activated, Izanagi is continuous unless Danzo turns it off. Each eye will stay open for exactly one minute as long as the technique is active, regardless of whether Danzo is killed in that minute or not.

But disappearing and reappearing is something that happened in every other instance he was "killed", so I'm doubting this was the exception.



> We'll have diferent opinions there. Because i saw it like some slashes. However, Oro's words before cutting her implies he was attempting to kill her so it's very plausible. No one there, not even Oro, was surprised that she was not cut completely from such a hyped blade.



Orochimaru _shouldn't_ have been surprised since he had basically full knowledge on her, and this Tsunade's body was weaker than current/in-shape Tsunade's body. He should have known she was very durable.

Now, he _was _shocked that she still managed to stop him from cutting Naruto on his next try. . .so he likely thought that even if it didn't kill her like he intended, when she fell down she should have been out of commission at least long enough for him to kill Naruto.



> They were very close and Sasuke was barely starting his slash Link removed. He had more a bigger size of the blade available to cut him. And the blood in that panel comes from the angles Sasuke cut him, not from the back. Danzo was not cut in half. Also, the angles of both attacks (Orochimaru and Sasuke's) are diferent. However, i do agree that Tsunade is miles above Danzo when it comes to tanking.



The length of Sasuke's blade and Orochimaru's seems almost exactly the same?  Orochimaru's blade was long enough that, considering where his feet are in comparison to Tsunade's stance, we can tell that his blade extended _behind_ her. It just couldn't go through her back and as a result got pushed back to the front during the slash- like how you try to cut something with a knife and it's too hard so the knife slides to the side instead of going through.

But the problem with that is that the blood circles Danzo's clothing, like a ring, not just a line of blood in the front. A "ring" effect couldn't be achieved without Sasuke having cut through his back. And I doubt he cut through part of his back, then went back to the front, and then cut part of his back on the opposite side at the end. We'd have seen Danzo's torso slide off had it not been for Izanagi disappearance.

I also don't see the difference in the actual slashes performed by Sasuke and Orochimaru. Both came from about 45 degrees and went straight across.



> Yeah, but Naruto broke his ancle due to the sheer force. However the point being that Mini YM being strong because it generated a force strong enough to send her flying and shatter boulders, yeah. It's a good feat. But not enough to compare it to Madara being bisected.



If Naruto broke his ankle, that means it wasn't durable enough to withstand the shock. Madara's was, and the crash he created was bigger. Which simply means Madara is more durable than Naruto.



> I recall people not covered by Katsuyu. Like here Link removed.



But we don't have any suggestion that those people survived.

_If_ they did, it would have just been that Katsuyus jumped to cover them at the very last second; like during the Rhino's attack on Ino's group- where we don't see Katsuyu until _after_ the attack when she's letting everyone go.



> The ANBU with her didn't have it and were ok as well.



That Anbu is pretty strange. 

I hate to use this argument because it's kind of flimsy, but I think his entire point of surviving was that someone needed to point out that Tsunade had used up the rest of her chakra for anybody who wasn't paying attention to her seal being gone- thus explaining why she didn't put up a fight against Pein despite still being able to get to him.

Because if that's not why, what happened to the other Anbu??? Unless something happened like Tsunade got knocked into this particular one and her boobs- I mean own body cushioned the impact in place of a Katsuyu clone, thus letting him survive. Then when he pushed the slab away, he noticed that Tsunade's seal was gone. (Which could actually be the case- this Anbu had the most spiky hair, and the other Anbu that we see beside Tsunade before CST are ironically he ones we never see again. If we couldn't see this one, chances are he was behind her.)



> There's a diference, yeah. But he was so strong compared to her that if he wanted, he could've forced her. Also, the Raikage was more bothersome to him considering his speed compared to the others and Susano'o. But still i don't find this accurate because the same could be said about cutting Tsunade in half and not the others. Considering Madara was toying with them, i go with him not doing it. As simple as that.



He's massively stronger than her in an overall sense, but isolated attributes such as physicality don't necessarily follow that.

I don't consider Raikage's performance to have been more bothersome, since he couldn't budge Susano'o.

Madara won't be stronger than Tsunade and faster than Raikage just because he is their overall superior, but he has other qualities that let him put them down. The ones he needs to resort to vary based on exactly what it is he's trying to overcome.

Considering that the wounds the others got are no more severe than the wounds Tsunade _was jumping around_ with, he knew that she'd require something much more severe.

So he dropped a forest on her .

If the other Kage had the same resilience factor she did, they'd find themselves in half as well.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 25, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> If the other Kage had the same resilience factor she did, they'd find themselves in half as well.



I'd just like to point out that this is so true. While Raikage is more durable than Tsunade (he didn't get any injuries from being teleported) Tsunade is FAR FAR FAR more resilient than Raikage (see: running round fighting with swords inside her, waking up before the other Kages despite being bisected, the only one of the Kage's whose life isn't in danger despite the fact that she's the one that Madara had to bisect to keep her down). pek


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## joshhookway (May 25, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> So fast he won't be able to react to her counter-attack as he charges, so he runs into her fist and dies



or Lee kicks tsunade in half. Speed doesn't mean linear speed, but rather how fast you can react and move. Lee can react to anything Tsunade doesn't.


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## Butterfly (May 25, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> I said it's featless because it's only hit did nothing and it's not very comparable to other attacks. However, i would never diminish Tsunade's tanking prowess. She has shown to be above anyone save the Raikages and Nagato (Considering that the lariat he received did nothing to him, though). and probably Hashirama and SM Naruto.
> 
> She has been hit by far greater power than this. Wich is why i diminish the Magatama's power a bit and i wouldn't use it to say she can't get hurt by some more powerful attacks (like Cloacked gated Lee, for example).


That's fair enough, haha. I agree with this, that, featwise, with the exception of making it through Gaara's sand and Onoki's golem together, it is mostly featless. However, I'm merely going off what Itachi stated about the attack's power, and I don't believe that it damaged her (unlike DaVaWiz).

I agree to say that cloaked Gate Lee would be hard to outright tank physically, BUT I do think she'd be able to live through it with her high damage soak. 





> My memory is hazy (for real). I don't know if i'm more than distracted, but would you remind me when she grew new bones?


Madara went right through her spine. She snapped the sword through her and tossed it to Madara, which, to me, is evidence of her bones being injured at some point. Another piece of evidence is her fight against Orochimaru, the two stab wounds she received in the chest seems relatively unlikely _not_ to hit bones. Besides, she stated she can reconstruct limbs, so I'm going to take that as  a sign she can regenerate bones (and if her claim about speeding up the body's natural healing process is true, bone is one of the few things that heals on its own compared to livers and stuff).



Okodi said:


> I'm not saying he knows her secret techniques. I'm saying that he could know something about her having regeneration type abilities without knowing that she indeed has it or know how it works. Considering he has mastered the 8 gates and can open the Wound gate which regenerates it wouldn't be far fetched for him to imagine that the most renowned medical ninja has some regeneration ability along with healing jutsus.


That's quite a leap for why I pointed out earlier. Orochimaru was visibly taken aghast by her implication that she has regeneration to the point of _envy_. If Orochimaru, the genius of the Sannin, the man able to create limitless jutsu, the man who has a five in intelligence, the man who has created _dozens_ of jutsu, should not be lacking in imagination. This is the man that was able to identify all of the Hokage's jutsu, who was able to find a way to formulate the dead's resurrection when that jutsu was sealed, the man who sealed the grin reaper again, etc. To say he's lacking in creativity, especially when he contains his own regeneration, enough to not imagine Tsunade's abilities while _Lee_ can is slightly inconceivable. 

He has only shown ability to use the first five, and, by gate of Wound, I mean Gate of Healing which only reenergizes the body.  It does _not_ heal you, instead, it's like a ninja five hour energy. Finally, Tsunade makes the distinction between regenerating and healing, implying that they're two totally different arts. Therefore, the idea that Lee can imagine her regeneration jutsu is further unlikely. 




> Note that I also said that Jiraya stated "Ninja's shouldn't go around showcasing their jutsu" meaning I'm not saying he (Lee) would be able to say "Tsunade, you have the Byakugo". Orochimaru being surprised doesn't mean he couldn't imagine it. He had Kabuto on his side who could do the same. For instance, Hiruzen was surprised when he learnt about Orochimaru completing the his immortality jutsu even though he had the idea that Orochimaru was attempting to do so.



Kabuto didn't use regeneration, though. He used a technique that prepared medical ninjutsu to an advance. He didn't _regenerate_ per se, he used the bodies' natural healing process by focusing on the chakra before treatment. It was never categorized as regeneration. If Orochimaru would have imagined Tsunade being able to regenerate, then why was he visibly stunned by the technique? If he had any clue that she had that ability, he wouldn't be so surprised, wouldn't he? 

The latter scenario isn't remotely the same. Hiruzen already had suspicions that Orochimaru was using and learning the jutsu. Orochimaru, on the other hand, didn't even have a thought about Tsunade's regeneration, which makes this technique a complete surprise. Again, If Orochimaru, who knows an intimate amount about Tsunade's medical knowledge, was surprised by regeneration. I don't see why Lee, who knows a lot less, and is nowhere near as intelligent, would be able to make such conclusions. To further elaborate on this, even Madara was surprised by her regeneration, and she already revealed her status as a medical ninja. 



> You missed everything I wrote after surgery or you misinterpreted what I meant. What I meant is that Lee is might have no problem imagining her having regeneration. How he would react upon seeing it though I don't know. And with me using Jiraya's statement I insinuated that Lee would never know the actual technique since the Sannins' generation thought that showcasing your jutsus was a stupid and uncareful thing to do.


Lee would not know that she has regeneration and I don't believe he'd suspect that for the reasons I outlined above. So many more people have seen Tsunade's medical prowess in action, and have completely thought regeneration was unobtainable, only to show surprise when it has. Regeneration is completely out of ideas when it comes to medical ninjutsu. This is what the manga implies and shows. Therefore, I don't believe Lee would have ideas about this.


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