# Black Man Vergo vs Luffy



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

Who wins?


or Luffy?

Base Vergo was able to win vs Sanji
This form should be QUITE stronger than that.

I personally think this would be a great fight but after a drawn out battle Vergo is stronger though Luffy would win if plot helps him.
Character to character I'd say Vergo is stronger though.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jun 8, 2013)

And "Non-base blackman" Vergo got one shotted by Law
Cracking Sanji's leg post time skip is no big deal Since Luffy would blitz him and punch his head off

Luffy high diff


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

Haruhifan6969 said:


> And "Non-base blackman" Vergo got one shotted by Law



The yeti brothers got one shot by a less serious Law and they were giving Luffy trouble
Smoker was one hit by Law

Law's ability is hax and a tricky one, either Vergo would have been completely ammune to it or he would get cut in half, if Vergo's haki was a little stronger he might have been untouchable vs Law
Also he didn't know to dodge as well.
Prove luffy wouldn't get cut in half vs Law, because he would unless he dodged the attack.

Luffy and Law have completely different fighting styles and Law used the strongest attack he's ever used on anyone on screen.
Lucci would have killed zoro with a shigan to the throat, doesn't mean lucci >>>>>>>>>>>>> zoro

If you seriously think Law is >>>>>>>>>>>>>  Vergo and Smoker, you need to think harder


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## Neruc (Jun 8, 2013)

Law's fruit is hax.Here we are talking about brute force.
Still,Luffy would win high diff.I don't see Vergo tanking an Elephant Gattling from Luffy,but Vergo has soru and he can duke it out with Luffy in CQC and keep him from using it.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

Neruc said:


> Law's fruit is hax.Here we are talking about brute force.
> Still,Luffy would win high diff.I don't see Vergo tanking an Elephant Gattling from Luffy,but Vergo has soru and he can duke it out with Luffy in CQC and keep him from using it.



You also have to consider the fact that Luffy won't be able to tank damage nearly as well as he did pre skip due to the fact that haki is involved so he won't be able to tank nearly as well despite Vergo being a martial artist style fighter.
Vergo's haki should be to a comparable if not superior level as far as quality to luffy.
We know haki has some quantity haki usage though and king's haki won't be of use in this fight.

It could go either way in my opinion but I give it to Vergo simply due to the full body haki trick and dealing with Sanji quite quickly in base.


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## Neruc (Jun 8, 2013)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You also have to consider the fact that Luffy won't be able to tank damage nearly as well as he did pre skip due to the fact that haki is involved so he won't be able to tank nearly as well despite Vergo being a combat fighter.


Exactly.Luffy's hasn't mastered haki either,and I think its safe to say that Vergo has better haki than him.
Still,Luffy can combine his DF with haki and unleash a Red Hawk.That would be really damaging,and maybe give Luffy the window of time he needs to unleash an Elephant Gatling.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

It'd be funny if Vergo had  a devil fruit and simply forgot he had it. And he died before he remembered and then Doflamingo sees the devil fruit being used by someone else and goes "oh there is vergo's df"

Anyway considering haki, Vergo should be able to tank REALLY well considering vergo tanked a DJ from Sanji without the use of haki in the face.
Vergo might actually be able to just run through luffy's attacks.
Especially since Don Chinjao got up quite easily.

Luffy should need gear 3 and 2 stack to actually do lasting damage and even that would need some pounding to beat Vergo. Vergo has a good chance.


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## Neruc (Jun 8, 2013)

Lol that would be really funny.Who knows,maybe one day Vergo woke up with a DF stuck to his chin and then ate it later when he was told he had it.

Luffy with second gear should be quite a bit above Sanji in speed.I think he will be able to more attacks in than Vergo.However still,a Red Hawk would be necessary to turn the fight decisively in Luffy favor.


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## Bitty (Jun 8, 2013)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Who wins?
> 
> 
> or Luffy?
> ...



neither went all out


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## Gian Dh (Jun 8, 2013)

This is a hard matchup, we have yet to see luffy go all out.

Law's ability gave him the edge over vergo, that's why he won so easily, with luffy it will be another story.

By hype Luffy should be > Law, as stated by doflamingo on ph arc, however doflamingo was understimating law  so we have to bet they're equals, otherwise there's no straight point on law offering luffy an alliance to take out kaido if luffy was noticeable weaker than law himself.

If Luffy = Law it doesn't mean that luffy can win as easily as law did, because he hasn't got hax abilities, but has got some attributes well over law. 

Luffy has got the edge in speed, full body gear 2 post skip luffy should be faster than most of the characters out there because even pre-skip g2 luffy was praised for his speed and current base luffy has shown feats that before he was able to accomplish only while in gear 2, i'm thinking of the speed blitz of hody (gyoncorde plaza was fairly wide) and even the catch of CC at the beginning of PH + dodging a point blank gastanet.

By these feats current gear 2 luffy should be an absolute monster in the speed department.

Sanji was able to overspeed vergo altough he failed to cause significant damage, and we assume that gear 2 current luffy is faster than base sanji. Armament Haki does not cause any increase in speed. 

Strength department: Vergo is an absolute monster, but even luffy has been an absolute monster and a physical powerhouse even before the time skip (e.g. throwing a little hill while severly injured and on emotional distress on amazon lily)  and actually damaging enemies far stronger than him (magellan, and don't tell me magellan durability sucks because it took BB crew + level 6 prisoners + shiliew to stop him).

I'll pose a question: Is Vergo as durable as noah? How strong is a red hawk on land? 

We don't know the answer to any of those, but we have to guess. The answer to the first one should be no, the answer to the second one should be: really fucking high, it ignited underwater and screwed up OD hody underwater (who may be fodder in combat department, but was a fucking tank and a fishman underwater, while luffy was severly at disadvantage).

So luffy should be very well able to damage vergo if he gets hits in, sanji managed to get hits in so should luffy. Vergo should damage luffy too but seeing as he failed to KO smoker who wasn't even going all out and given luffy's monstrous durability and will power he will probably go out before luffy. 

So Luffy has most probably the speed edge, while vergo should have slightly durability edge thanks to full body armament haki. 

It will be a hard fight but luffy should be able to weaken vergo and get a couple of finishers in (Red Hawk, grizzly magnum, Elephant Gatling? Choose one, they are extremely damaging) and i don't really see vergo resisting EGG or GM.

For those who TL;DR: 
I say Luffy on the lower end of high difficulty.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

Gian Dh said:


> This is a hard matchup, we have yet to see luffy go all out.
> 
> Law's ability gave him the edge over vergo, that's why he won so easily, with luffy it will be another story.
> 
> ...


Vergo broke Sanji's leg without haki or at least black haki.
You also have to consider full body haki as more than a defense thing.
Look at how much stronger Luffy is cuz of hardening haki making his hands black and stuff.

Vergo is much smaller than the ship but the fact is that he is much more durable, that was wood while Vergo is made out of a material that Law had to cut a mountain to get through.
Vergo also has the benefit of using rokushiki.

He at the very least knows soru, geppou, and shigan, all of which he used.
Vergo beat Law in the past with his full body so he expected it to do it. But imagine if Vergo is able to use kami-e and tekkai?
That should make Vergo even more durable and hard to catch.

Wouldn't be surprised if Vergo knows tekkai but just was overconfident that he wouldn't be cut in half, though I don't think tekkai would work vs law's ability actually.

The point being is that tekkai would work effectively well vs someone like luffy
not to mention he has USED soru to increase his speed, geppou to jump off the air, and shigan is quite strong.
LUffy was able to tank shigan due to it being like a bullet or physical hit but STRONG near master level busoshoku haki infusion would make Luffy actually feel it this time around.
I can't see Luffy tanking more than 3 shigan.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

8Bit said:


> neither went all out



Just cuz Sanji didn't use every single move doesn't mean he wasn't going all out. Sanji WAS going all out. Vergo was the one who wasn't due to lack of busoshoku haki, sanji had his leg fractured on the other hand.


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## Gian Dh (Jun 8, 2013)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Vergo broke Sanji's leg without haki or at least black haki.
> You also have to consider full body haki as more than a defense thing.
> Look at how much stronger Luffy is cuz of hardening haki making his hands black and stuff.
> 
> ...



I can't see vergo landing 3 shigan on luffy as both smoker and sanji were able to outreaction and outspeed him while busoshoku means jack-shit regarding speed, also we have to speculate on what characters showed to us, and vergo didn't show kami-e and tekkai whie we can speculate that he can use them.

You don't get my point, put vergo in front of an elephant gatling of several minutes without him defending (you can allow haki) does he resist as long as noah did? i don't think so.

So Luffy will have an hard time but if he is serious Vergo gets EGGed, Crocodile style, to the ceiling in the end.


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## Tom Servo (Jun 8, 2013)

Neruc said:


> Lol that would be really funny.Who knows,maybe one day Vergo woke up with a DF stuck to his chin and then ate it later when he was told he had it.



lulz,.....


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

Gian Dh said:


> I can't see vergo landing 3 shigan on luffy as both smoker and sanji were able to outreaction and outspeed him while busoshoku means jack-shit regarding speed, also we have to speculate on what characters showed to us, and vergo didn't show kami-e and tekkai whie we can speculate that he can use them.
> 
> You don't get my point, put vergo in front of an elephant gatling of several minutes without him defending (you can allow haki) does he resist as long as noah did? i don't think so.
> 
> So Luffy will have an hard time but if he is serious Vergo gets EGGed, Crocodile style, to the ceiling in the end.



Depends on the mindset he's in.
If he was reminded or remembered that he had soru he would have been much quicker in his fights but he must have forgot he had it, he used it to speed blitz teh crap out of law when law tried to return his heart. If he remembers he can use soru, shigan, and geppou it should make the fight much quicker paced.
Vergo has soru, if he uses it then luffy has much harder time tagging him.
This is luffy, the guy who had trouble keeping up with the yeti brothers while law tagged both of them and vergo speed blitzed law.
Luffy's reaction time might not match his gear 2nd is what I'm trying to say.
Soru should be able to make them equal in speed. Gear 3rd requires some prep time fyi, in a fight vs someone like vergo it's not going to happen.
Jet Pistols aren't getting through his haki sorry, with exception of something like black haki gattling gun.

This isn't going to be a "one and done" or "he's faster so therefore one sided"
This will turn into a pounding on each other to see who has more durability and who has more willpower. This is lucci vs luffy 2.0


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## tanman (Jun 8, 2013)

He's got no feats. So I have to give it to Luffy.
But his portrayal is good enough that I would have put it at extremely high difficulty.


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## Gian Dh (Jun 8, 2013)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Depends on the mindset he's in.
> If he was reminded or remembered that he had soru he would have been much quicker in his fights but he must have forgot he had it, he used it to speed blitz teh crap out of law when law tried to return his heart. If he remembers he can use soru, shigan, and geppou it should make the fight much quicker paced.
> Vergo has soru, if he uses it then luffy has much harder time tagging him.
> This is luffy, the guy who had trouble keeping up with the yeti brothers while law tagged both of them and vergo speed blitzed law.
> ...



Not saying it's one sided, high diff. is everything but one sided.
You can't really take Yeti Cool brothers (fodders sorry) as example, luffy was heavily PISed until his second fight with CC and wasn't even using gear 2 (Someone ask Oda why has he got to induce more stupidity in Luffy seeing as he is already quite stupid lol) and looked pretty relaxed [he got excited at gastanet lol], he pretty much woke up after Zoro reminded him that they were in the new world and no errors would be allowed. 

Also no, Law isn't faster than Luffy, at least in CQC combat.
This said, luffy won't lose in any circumstance, unless he starts off relaxed and vergo gets two or three hakified bamboo hits on him, which will allow him to gain the slight edge. 

Also gear 3 is nowhere as slow as it was pre-skip, Luffy can do elephant gun in one panel pretty casually. 

If luffy starts off in disadvantage and it gets at luffy v lucci 2.0 --> Vergo gets egged to the wall in a last resort move, and i'm being generous.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

tanman said:


> He's got no feats. So I have to give it to Luffy.
> But his portrayal is good enough that I would have put it at extremely high difficulty.



Hmm, Sanji is superhuman and his legs are fricken durable as hell, pre skip kicking pacifista which are made of DURABLE material..
Sanji makes muay thai fighters like buakaw look like jokes.
Well imagine Vergo was  Buakaw and Sanji was someone with moderate muay thai experience
That's the difference in durability between base Vergo, and Sanji.

Sanji is focused around having a durable body, he's a martial artist and that's his gig.

That's base Vergo without Busoshoku haki, and btw, Vergo has the most powerful  Busoshoku haki right now.

Go punch a thick tree
Now imagine you were at Luffy strength and you felt that much resistance still, that's pretty much the scaling of Luffy punching Vergo in busoshoku haki.
As in him punching vergo is like you trying to punch down a tree that is 2 feet thick.

Vergo should at least be the durability of a mountain seeing as Law used as much haki and power as needed and that's how much required to get through his haki.
So anything that won't destroy that huge mountain isn't damaging Vergo.
Actually no, you need more damage.
Cuz law only had to get through the haki, the rest was his hax.
So in reality you need that much strength to destory a mountain to even get to the layer that was more durable than sanji.
So really you should be able to destroy a mountain + before even being able to give him a bloody lip even.


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## Mihawk (Jun 8, 2013)

(My last post of the day, and also to put an end to this shitty M3 & Vergo discussion)


Luffy wins high-extreme difficulty. This would be an interesting fight between two users of Color of Armaments: Hardening

Vergo hasn't shown the level of durability or skill to tank Luffy's strongest attacks(GM, EGG)

But I'm sure Vergo can take a simple Elephant Gun without much trouble. Jet Gattling, Jet Pistol and most of Luffy's Gear 2nd techniques can be brushed off by him, and Vergo could possibly take several Red Hawks, and still keep fighting. 

At the same time, Vergo's feats aren't sufficient enough for me to say that he can push Luffy to his furthest extremes. 

In other words, I don't regard Vergo as Luffy's close equal, even though I see Vergo being in the same ballpark as the M3. Why? Because he is clearly a strong Vice Admiral, and unlike some of you, I really don't think that the M3 are "clearly above all VAs". 

Vergo was shown to be able to gain a slight upperhand against Sanji, despite neither being pushed to their limits at the time(Sanji: no Hell Memories+no staying in DJ/Vergo: no Black Haki+bamboo or Fullbody Armaments form). Sanji still kept up with Vergo, and held his own well. Vergo also fought on even terms against Smoker, until he later managed to overpower Smoker. Smoker should be well within the ballpark of the Monster Trio. Punk Hazard revolved around the six strongest fighters of the island(this is discounting Doflamingo & Aokiji, who arrived later): Law, Luffy, Zoro, Vergo, Smoker, Sanji, who are all more or less, M3 level fighters, with Law being the strongest one. 

In terms of speed, Vergo seems to be fast, but I think Luffy is faster. 

With the way the story is going now, It seems like once Luffy goes all out, it will be clear that he has pulled ahead from Vergo, as there are other strong rivals in great quantity, that Luffy has to contend with now in Dress Rosa, like the coliseum gladiators(who are shown to be quite strong), Jesus Burgess(not to say that Luffy can contend with him right now), the Card Suits, and the champion himself, Diamante. 



*Spoiler*: __ 



Luffy VS Vergo: Luffy high-extreme(leaning to extreme) difficulty.

Zoro VS Vergo: Zoro Extreme difficulty, or could go either way

Sanji VS Vergo: Could go either way, (imo) or Vergo extreme difficulty. 




I still have faith in my buddy and trusted officer, Vergo, that he would definitely be leaving marks, bruises, bleeding and scars on this fucking rookie.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

^ You are massively better discussion than most the people on this forum (though this thread has been surprisingly nice so far and the people in it)
But sanji and vergo were hardly equal, vergo proved to have a stronger physical body than sanji when he round house shattered sanji's leg and tanked a DJ to the face. Blood yes but damage nearly non existant if at all.


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## Bitty (Jun 8, 2013)

Does it matter he suffered a slight crack in his leg, that's a paper cut to a fighter like Sanji, he suffered broken bones in his fight with Bon-chan, he fought evenly with Gin with broken bones.  He kept exchanging kicks with Vergo, kept performing skywalk & crushing boulders like nothing happened.  That's good endurance.
Vergo got up from 2 Djz like nothing happened. That's good endurance.  That just tells us Sanji needs to hit harder.  Sanji didn't even use HM & we haven't even seen what Sanji can fully do yet.


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## Soca (Jun 8, 2013)

Black vergo stomps

BLACK POWA!


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

8Bit said:


> Does it matter he suffered a slight crack in his leg, that's a paper cut to a fighter like Sanji, he suffered broken bones in his fight with Bon-chan, he fought evenly with Gin with broken bones.  He kept exchanging kicks with Vergo, kept performing skywalk & crushing boulders like nothing happened.  That's good endurance.
> Vergo got up from 2 Djz like nothing happened. That's good endurance.  That just tells us Sanji needs to hit harder.  Sanji didn't even use HM & we haven't even seen what Sanji can fully do yet.



"He suffered a slight crack in his leg, that's a paper cut to a fighter like Sanji"

No it's not.
That was the most damage ever suffered to Sanji if anything.
Sanji's body is more durable and attacks that would break your leg or mine would be noob to him, but the fact that it was so powerful that his pure physical build was cracked, yeah, that is a BIG deal.
He is more durable but his leg breaking clearly weakens him a little.
But the main point is Vergo has a stronger physical body than that.

"That just means Sanji needs to hit harder"
Wait what?

"Buggy failed to one hit Roger with his one of his strongest attacks, Buggy just has to try harder and Roger will die"

That's your logic.

Crushing boldiers is something than the m3 could  do pre timeskip so doing it post timeskip with a broken leg is nothing. Plus it was likely the other leg that he used to kick the boulder with anyway.

Just fyi hells memory is just a full body DJ isn't  it? So the damage shouldn't increase really.

You are either a sanji fanboy or a vergo hater because you are using pretty blind reasoning.
Vergo base > Sanji
And Vergo is known for his top grade busoshoku
So yes, Vergo's busoshoku is a HUGE bonus and would put him WAYYYY above sanji.


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## savior2005 (Jun 8, 2013)

luffy because i say that luffy haki>law haki. and law haki is def> vergo haki.


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## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2013)

> Jet Gattling, Jet Pistol and most of Luffy's Gear 2nd techniques can be brushed off by him



Vergo had a nice bleeding wound opened on him, sent flying and was shaking after a single punch from Smoker. There's no way in hell he is doing anything close to "brushing off" a Jet Gatling (obv. Hardened) which should obviously do that damage many times over.

Luffy is above Vergo in every single (derived) stat except durability. Speed, check. Hitting power, check. Endurance, guaranteed. They are both simple brawlers so nothing weird will happen. Vergo simply won't be able to stand against Luffy bringing out his A game in speed and power.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Vergo had a nice bleeding wound opened on him, sent flying and was shaking after a single punch from Smoker. There's no way in hell he is doing anything close to "brushing off" a Jet Gatling (obv. Hardened) which should obviously do that damage many times over.
> 
> Luffy is above Vergo in every single (derived) stat except durability.



Haki punch Smoker vs Base Vergo

Vergo is a top grade busoshoku haki user, even doflamingo admired him for it.
So yeah Vergo should be good. Also  "many times over"
Why is Luffy's haki many times that of Smoker?
Smoker was physically stronger than Luffy pre skip too and Smoker was able to use hardening.

So yeah, this is Vergo  IN black hardening mode, so it's a completely different game.

Vergo's haki was quite stronger than Smoker's too. He broke right through smoker's haki and weapon with one attack.
It took a mountain cutting law attack to get through his haki alone, since law's fruit can cut vergo if it gets through his haki.
So Law's haki adds the durability of a big mountain
And his regular durability was far greater than Sanji in that he took a DJ to the face with little to no damage, etc etc.
So yeah, Luffy needs to destroy a mountain with an attack to even get past his haki hardening alone to get to  Vergo's regular durability which was the best on the island already. Vergo is a durability god.


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## Mihawk (Jun 8, 2013)

^He didn't say "Many times over". He said that Luffy>Vergo in every single stat, except durability, which Vergo specializes at. 



Coruscation said:


> Vergo had a nice bleeding wound opened on him, sent flying and was shaking after a single punch from Smoker. There's no way in hell he is doing anything close to "brushing off" a Jet Gatling (obv. Hardened) which should obviously do that damage many times over.
> 
> Luffy is above Vergo in every single (derived) stat except durability. Speed, check. Hitting power, check. Endurance, guaranteed. They are both simple brawlers so nothing weird will happen. Vergo simply won't be able to stand against Luffy bringing out his A game in speed and power.



Oh yea, I forgot that Luffy can coat Jet Gattling in Hardening now. I had to reread the part where he was busting down Monet's snow wall. 

I'll just say that Vergo can use Tekkai and tank a regular Jet Gattling(without Hardening) then, but would be thrown back and injured by a Jet Gattling(with Hardening)

Thanks for the fix.


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## Bitty (Jun 8, 2013)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> "He suffered a slight crack in his leg, that's a paper cut to a fighter like Sanji"
> 
> No it's not.
> That was the most damage ever suffered to Sanji if anything.
> ...



1 attack from Sanji sent Vergo flying crashing through a wall & had his face bleeding.  its just 1 attack. Sanji was shown to have enough physical strength to put him down. Only briefly but he still broke through his guard & put him down. If you don't think a series of those kinds of attacks won't harm Vergo in the slightest you're underrating Sanji.  Sanji who didn't use Coa. Sanji who didn't use DJ consistently. Sanji who didn't use HM.  We haven't even seen everything Sanji can do.  Sanji couldn't put down Jyabaru down or get pass his defense until he went fully all out & used his most powerful attacks.  Every time he kicked him he got up like nothing happened.. until he busted out the big guns & HM set ablaze the largest creature the Shs have faced in the manga with 1 kick but it shouldn't do more damage than a normal DJ? yea ok


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## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2013)

> I'll just say that Vergo can use Tekkai and tank a regular Jet Gattling(without Hardening) then, but would be thrown back and injured to a Jet Gattling(with Hardening)



Nah. Jet Gatling is stronger than one DJ kick and should be stronger than a single punch from Smoker as well. You're underestimating how powerful an attack Gatling is. Adding Haki doesn't make a punch stronger than hundreds of Jet punches. DJ sent (debatably, I would say it was Haki, we've already seen Tekkai does not work at all against DJ) him crashing and made him bleed. Jet Gatling is doing more. Hakiless Jet Gatling won't be enough against Hardened Vergo but with Luffy's own Hardening he is getting messed up.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

So wait?
Because  Vergo bled it beat the crap out of him?
Despite the fact that Vergo pretty much tanked it like the Terminator and showed no such thing of pain.
Smoker hurt Vergo haki punch vs haki'less skin

Vergo has stronger haki than Smoker too
This is full body black hardening haki vs Luffy, not base Vergo.

It takes a mountain destroying cut to get past the haki to get to him, and his base has great durability.
DJ made him bleed but didn't actually make him "hurt"

So to make him bleed with full body haki hardening you need something as strong as DJ + the damage to cut that mountain in half since law's fruit only had to get through the hardening and not vergo's normal durability.
So DJ + Mountain destroying to make him bleed, just bleed nothing else.
Then more to actually hurt him aand more than thaat to put him down.

Vergo is tanking luffy attacks.
Vergo has stronger haki busoshoku than luffy does and is more skilled at it.


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## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2013)

I guess I should inform you that I'm not going to respond to a single thing you write. Feel kind of bad just in case you're sincerely typing all this thinking you're being a reasonable debater and expecting responses.


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## Bitty (Jun 8, 2013)

Sanji didn't go all out but he sent him flying through a wall & had him bleeding from the face. That's impressive.
Vergo didn't go all out but he slightly cracked his leg...that's impressive....Sanji was impressive as well to keep exchanging kicks with him like nothing happened.  Both were impressive, Vergo had the slight edge even though neither went all out & used their best attacks.

In an earlier thread you said Drake & Urouge could almost beat or fight evenly with a PX just because they sent it flying & made it bleed, even though it took the entire SHs to beat one.
Well Sanji sent Vergo flying & drew blood from him twice....while showing better reaction & speed.  Even though it took a mountain slicing cut to put Vergo down, though Sanji set ablaze a mountain size creature with 1 kick.


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## Mihawk (Jun 8, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> No. Jet Gatling is stronger than one DJ kick and should be stronger than a single punch from Smoker as well. You're underestimating how powerful an attack Gatling is. Adding Haki doesn't make a punch stronger than hundreds of Jet punches. DJ sent (debatably, I would say it was Haki, we've already seen Tekkai does not work at all against DJ) him crashing and made him bleed. Jet Gatling is doing more. Hakiless Jet Gatling won't be enough against Hardened Vergo but with Luffy's own Hardening he is getting messed up.



Vergo dodges Jet Gattling with Soru then 

As far as durability is concerned, Luffy would be better off using his hardened Gear 2nd attacks, Gear 3rd, Gear 3rd + Hardening, to bypass Vergo's Haki or Tekkai, to hurt him. 

Red Hawks will cause damage.


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## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2013)

He could try


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## Bitty (Jun 8, 2013)

wtf? Coru used a smiley?!......................


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## Mihawk (Jun 8, 2013)

I got Corus to smile.

Spreading the smiles of the new age


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## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2013)

I regretted it immediately but then felt it would look kind of stupid if I removed it after the fact. So eh.


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## Dellinger (Jun 8, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Vergo dodges Jet Gattling with Soru then
> 
> As far as durability is concerned, Luffy would be better off using his hardened Gear 2nd attacks, Gear 3rd, Gear 3rd + Hardening, to bypass Vergo's Haki or Tekkai, to hurt him.
> 
> Red Hawks will cause damage.



Vergo isn't avoiding a Jet Gatling.

Luffy in base now is incredibly fast (Avoiding Caesar's Gastanet explosion being at the epicenter of it)

Imagine Gear 2nd.


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## Bitty (Jun 8, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> I regretted it immediately but then felt it would look kind of stupid if I removed it after the fact. So eh.



I respect that :sanji


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## Soca (Jun 8, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> He could try



I'm sigging this


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## tupadre97 (Jun 8, 2013)

Wow how many Luffy vs Vergo threads are u guys gonna make? Vergo wins, we all know why.





White Hawk said:


> Vergo isn't avoiding a Jet Gatling.
> 
> Luffy in base now is incredibly fast (Avoiding Caesar's Gastanet explosion being at the epicenter of it)
> 
> Imagine Gear 2nd.



Base Luffy also could barely keep up with Smoker who was flying casually to CC while running at top speed. Luffy is fast but he's not that fast. We also don't even know how fast that explosion was that he dodged so u can't even count it as a feat really.


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## Mihawk (Jun 8, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Vergo isn't avoiding a Jet Gatling.
> 
> Luffy in base now is incredibly fast (Avoiding Caesar's Gastanet explosion being at the epicenter of it)
> 
> Imagine Gear 2nd.



Vergo is also fast in CQC.

We've seen how quick Law can instantly switch the location of an object, or "teleport" it right to his hand during his fight with Smoker, and Vergo caught up to it here. 

The room was already around both of them, and there was a fair amount of distance between the two. 


Yet Vergo got to him and caught up with Shambles. 

Not saying that is equivalent to Luffy dodging a quick explosion like Gastanet. 

Concerning the main topic of whether he can dodge a Jet Gattling or not:

As for Jet Gattling, we saw that CC couldn't react to it due to him being much slower than Luffy(the hardened one), but he was able to still see it coming, despite Luffy getting behind him. 


Someone like Vergo who is a ways above CC, and is a strong Vice Admiral, one proficient in Haki(so that includes CoO/precognition), and can utilize Soru at great speed, being able to see, react, and evade Jet Gattling isn't out of the question.


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## trance (Jun 8, 2013)

If Law can beat him, PIS/CIS on or not, then Luffy should be able to as well since he's considered on par with Law.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2013)

Why is Vergo so popular?

Why does he need to be stronger than Luffy?

what has he done to derserve this wank?

Answer me my friends?


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## tupadre97 (Jun 8, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Vergo is also fast in CQC.
> 
> We've seen how quick Law can instantly switch the location of an object, or "teleport" it right to his hand during his fight with Smoker, and Vergo caught up to it here.
> 
> ...



Also shambles is faster than Luffy seeing how Law was using shambles so fast when he fought Smoker he couldn't even react to it. Also remember that casual Smoker is faster than top speed base Luffy, which mean G2 Luffy and Smoker top speed should be about the same. Therefore shambles is faster than Luffy and since Vergo is as fast as shambles he is also faster than Luffy.


Lazers said:


> If Law can beat him, PIS/CIS on or not, then Luffy should be able to as well since he's considered on par with Law.



Who the hell told u that? Did u forget the part where Law cut thru someone with much better haki than Luffy or when he showcased speed (with shambles) that was faster than someone who is as fast as Luffy?


Eminem said:


> Why is Vergo so popular?
> 
> Why does he need to be stronger than Luffy?
> 
> ...



No wanking here sir, just facts


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## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2013)

Still doesn't answer 2 of the 3 questions.


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## Mihawk (Jun 8, 2013)

This is a minor technicality in the fight, and I already agreed that Luffy would win at around High difficulty, but I can see Vergo dodge Jet Gattling, since the technique makes Luffy stay at a certain radius, (after he tries blitzing next to the enemy) when he dishes the barrages out to a concentrated focal point, and I think that if Vergo can react to it, he can use soru and move out of the way.

We saw the distance he was able to cover in an instant between him and Law. It is a matter of reaction. Like I said, if Vergo can react to Luffy trying to get next to him before using Jet Gattling, he can use Soru to get out of the way, and out of the radius to the direction which Jet Gattling is being used towards.


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## tupadre97 (Jun 8, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Still doesn't answer 2 of the 3 questions.



Ok well he's popular bcuz he's a fucking beast. And he's stronger than Luffy bcuz well, Oda made him that way.





Doflαmingo said:


> This is a minor technicality in the fight, and _*I already agreed that Luffy would win at around High difficulty*_, but I can see Vergo dodge Jet Gattling, since the technique makes Luffy stay at a certain radius, (after he tries blitzing next to the enemy) when he dishes the barrages out to a concentrated focal point, and I think that if Vergo can react to it, he can use soru and move out of the way.
> 
> We saw the distance he was able to cover in an instant between him and Law. It is a matter of reaction. Like I said, if Vergo can react to Luffy trying to get next to him before using Jet Gattling, he can use Soru to get out of the way, and out of the radius to the direction which Jet Gattling is being used towards.



Why do u think Luffy can win if he's fighting someone who's faster, stronger, and more durable than him? I'm just curious as to how u see the fight going.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2013)

Now why would Oda go and do that?


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## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2013)

Maybe it wasn't clear enough that I was joking about Vergo and Jet Gatling. It's common sense that he would be able to dodge it. Otherwise Luffy could just smash Vergo into the dust with low difficulty and I'm sure no one really thinks that.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

The luffy wank despite the fact that he couldn't beat the yeti brothers =w=
Also lightning a mountain size thing on fire and destroying a mountain are two separate thing.


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## tupadre97 (Jun 8, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Now why would Oda go and do that?



I don't fuckin know ask him.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2013)

Luffy couldn't beat the Yeti Cool Brothers. 

Lol just lol.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2013)

Maybe Vergo isn't stronger than Luffy? 

That would be terrible writing wouldn't you agree?


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## tupadre97 (Jun 8, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Maybe Vergo isn't stronger than Luffy?
> 
> That would be terrible writing wouldn't you agree?



He is clearly stronger than Luffy. Wth are u talking about?


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## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2013)

Vergo can destroy the Noah?


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## Dellinger (Jun 8, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> He is clearly stronger than Luffy. Wth are u talking about?



He isn't.

Stop with overestimation of Law and underestimation of Luffy.

You always do that.

Vergo isn't faster than Luffy.

He doesn't have stronger attacks than Luffy.

He isn't better at combat than Luffy.

He isn't winning against Luffy.

Plus Luffy was blitzing Smoker (doesn't matter that he was in Tashigi's body)


Also Luffy's Haki is being hyped up by someone who is a user (Bellamy)

Vergo's was hyped up by Caesar.

Lol.

And before people bring Doflamingo in this.

He didn't know how much Law improved.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2013)

White Hawk pretty much summed up everything.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> He isn't.
> 
> Stop with overestimation of Law and underestimation of Luffy.
> 
> ...



Debating with you is like debating with a creationist 
You never give any actual solid proof, you say stuff that you think proves beyond a reasonable doubt yet it doesn't even help your case at all.
"Zoro beat Ryuuma with Brook's skills, he must be able to stomp Ryuuma"

Good logic man, good logic.

You "BELIEVE" Luffy is stronger than Vergo, despite the fact that you have facts against such a case being true.
I'm sure you believe the invention of the sofa bed is proof that God exists.

1) Durability
2) Defense
3) Speed
4) Haki 

Vergo has all of those in spades above Luffy, yet Luffy still wins for some reason in your mind.
Heck I wouldn't be surprised if you think Usopp can beat Vergo.

Vergo has better haki than Luffy, that is proven by actual factual canon display.
He speedblitzed Law who STOMPED the crap out of the yeti brothers who luffy had a hard time tagging

But no matter how many fights he gets, until Luffy is at the level you guys are happy with being Luffy fanboys, you'll go "oh he hasn't tried yet" and so you are wrong even though I'm guessing.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2013)

^ Pot calling kettle black.


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## Dellinger (Jun 8, 2013)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Debating with you is like debating with a creationist
> You never give any actual solid proof, you say stuff that you think proves beyond a reasonable doubt yet it doesn't even help your case at all.
> "Zoro beat Ryuuma with Brook's skills, he must be able to stomp Ryuuma"
> 
> ...



Funny coming from someone who says that Vergo won against Sanji...Which just so you know Sanji didn't go down defeated.

Durability.
Have we seen the extent of Luffy's durability?No.But we do know this.
Nami in Sanji's body was unconscious when Caesar used Gastanet.
Luffy not only tanked one,but in the next moment outspeed a bigger one.

Defense.
Vergo is better.

Speed.
Luffy is faster.If you doubt that then lol.
Even after so many feats from him when with Gear 3rd he was covering kilometers worth of distance too fast.

Haki.
I would give it to Vergo but after seeing Bellamy saying that Luffy has an immensely powerful Haki.


Also yes I am a Luffy fanboy.

But I do know that Doflamingo shits on him.
That the Admirals shit on him 10 times over.
Same with the Yonko.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 8, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Funny coming from someone who says that Vergo won against Sanji...Which just so you know Sanji didn't go down defeated.
> 
> Durability.
> Have we seen the extent of Luffy's durability?No.But we do know this.
> ...



I'm not even saying Vergo stomps but he should win. This isn't fairy tail where natsu uses a friendship punch to beat people stronger, this is one piece where they is some sort of order. Sure luffy in the end is strongest but right now it doesn't see to be the case.

Vergo's speed is very inconsistent, I'll give you that.
I think that's a matter of Vergo's personality and not his "Actual" speed.
Cuz Vergo did speed blitz Law who is quite godly when it comes to reaction and teleporting speed.

I personally think that Vergo forgot he had soru throughout a few of those fights.
Like how Vergo went something along the lines of "I think I had a hot dog" while having half the burger still on his face.

People were expecting during his fights to go and get reminded by doflamingo that really he is a swordsman and go "oh yeah, that's right" after been fighting with his physical body that whole time. Then get a huge boost.
He only used soru once or twice despite being able to speed blitz teh crap out of high tiers with it yet he didn't even use it ONCE vs Sanji.

So I don't think it's a matter of "oh he was slow there so he's slow compared to that character" as much as, his soru REALLY boosts his speed cuz he's good at it but he forgets to use it in character.
But if he spams soru he IS to fast for luffy.

Also about the durability, that just means he's got more durability than Sanji does but also  you have to realize that luffy is made of rubber, though that's useless vs vergo cuz he does have superior haki.

Luffy learned the basic of haki and had 6 months left so he did evolve  the haki beyond  the basics.

I would consider  Smoker as having the basics and Luffy slightly more so in comparison.
While people like Tashigi and Bellamy are not to teh basic level yet

So while Tashigi and Bellamy are haki users who can actively use it, they are no match against Smoker level haki, but while he has the basic down fully, luffy has a higher level, though he only had 6 months so he couldn't go from "basic haki" to the top level haki.
Though Luffy will eventually, not to mention Bellamy might have just realized he has the king's haki, just cuz you have king's haki doesn't mean your other hakis are at top grade and king's haki is useless by what we know in such a competitive level fight.

Vergo on the other hand is beyond Luffy's level of haki, if that is intermediate, advanced, or perfected haki of  busoshoku we don't know but he seems to specialize in hardening though he will without a doubt at least have basic level of haoshoku (that's the spelling right?)

I would say luffy is between basic and intermediate
Vergo is intermediate cuz I can't see Vergo even being an expert in the kinda haki hitting Vergo even if he is allowed a free hit when Vista and Marco couldn't together get past Akainu's intangibility.

So yeah, Luffy's haki IS impressive when in comparison to Tashigi and Bellamy.
Just like how Vista's swordsmanship was good compared to preskip Zoro.
Sure zoro wasn't a bad swordsman but vista was quite a bit better but not the best.

But Vergo seems to specifically specialize in busoshoku and seems quite a bit better in that Vergo has become so quality that he can turn his whole body black and forced Law into such a godly attack when all Law had to do with his ability is get past the haki.


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## A Optimistic (Jun 8, 2013)

I made Coru use an emoticon before.

He used the  face


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## trance (Jun 8, 2013)

@ The fucker who said Vergo is "clearly" stronger than Luffy

Scans that Vergo is so superior?


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## ZeroWolf123 (Jun 8, 2013)

Luffy wins but it's with a lot of difficulty


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## Bansai (Jun 9, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> I regretted it immediately but then felt it would look kind of stupid if I removed it after the fact. So eh.



F... the match! This is much more interesting!


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## Law (Jun 9, 2013)

Marcelle.B said:


> I'm sigging this




*Spoiler*: __ 





Coruscation said:


> Thanks for the discussion










Going with Luffy high difficulty.


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## Canute87 (Jun 9, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> He could try



I saw this shit in Marcelle's sig.  Never thought you had those kinds of emotions.

First time for everything i guess.


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## tanman (Jun 9, 2013)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Hmm, Sanji is superhuman and his legs are fricken durable as hell, pre skip kicking pacifista which are made of DURABLE material..
> Sanji makes muay thai fighters like buakaw look like jokes.
> Well imagine Vergo was  Buakaw and Sanji was someone with moderate muay thai experience
> That's the difference in durability between base Vergo, and Sanji.
> ...



I know that you disagree with my post, but I can't really understand what you're saying. Well, that's not quite right. I can understand individual clauses, but I'm having a lot of trouble putting them together. Sorry.


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## PortgasDStarrk (Jun 9, 2013)

Luffy wins high-diff. I'm sure a full powered Red Hawk ,something we didn't discover so far (only a weaker version under water) would break through Vergo's arnament. EGG won't hit probably ,but if ,it would take Vergo out for sure.
Luffy is also faster than Vergo in Base ,full body Gear 2 would run circles around Vergo. Sanji and Smoker had no problems to dodge his attacks and Luffy who in Base is already around their level ,would also dodge most of Vergo's attacks. Law won because his DF+his Haki >Vergo's Haki and because Vergo underestimated him and ran straight into Law's slash. Him blitzing Law is also not a great feat because Law's focus was on his heart and not Vergo. Luffy should have better Haki mastery than Law because he trained under Rayleigh.


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## Cheeky (Jun 9, 2013)

Vergo wins.


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## Impact (Jun 9, 2013)

Vergo is black he wins by default


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## Quuon (Jun 10, 2013)

Luffy wins.
High-diff.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 11, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Maybe it wasn't clear enough that I was joking about Vergo and Jet Gatling. It's common sense that he would be able to dodge it. *Otherwise Luffy could just smash Vergo into the dust with low difficulty and I'm sure no one really thinks that.*



A Jet Gatling is not taking Vergo out so not really. Unless Vergo is in a bad spot where Luffy can and does just spam it all day(like he did with EGG) and he can't counter at all. Then yea he eventually turns into paste. 

but if Vergo can just lol Soru away from a Jet Gatling then what the hell is luffy going to hit and hurt Vergo with. Pistol?(thats not doing shit). Unless i am just really confused and Jet Gatling is not one of Luffy's fastest attacks.


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## Coruscation (Jun 11, 2013)

If Vergo can't dodge them then Luffy can just use them repeatedly until Vergo loses. That was my point, not that a single attack would take him out.

Pistol is doing just fine. You really underrating G2+Hardened attacks? Gatling isn't any faster than any other direct hit attacks like Pistol or Stamp. I don't understand your complaint. Just because Vergo can dodge some attacks doesn't mean he's going to dodge every attack. Luffy will land more hits than Vergo and eventually make him ripe for a finisher. It's not complicated.


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## tupadre97 (Jun 11, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> If Vergo can't dodge them then Luffy can just use them repeatedly until Vergo loses. That was my point, not that a single attack would take him out.
> 
> Pistol is doing just fine. You really underrating G2+Hardened attacks? Gatling isn't any faster than any other direct hit attacks like Pistol or Stamp. I don't understand your complaint. Just because Vergo can dodge some attacks doesn't mean he's going to dodge every attack. *Luffy will land more hits than Vergo and eventually make him ripe for a finisher.* It's not complicated.


Really? But Vergo's faster than him and all he needs to do is hit him a few times. He might hit him with a jet gatling or bazooka but anything else really won't do any damage to Vergo.


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## TouyaTheIceDemon (Jun 11, 2013)

Luffy can use the elephant gun and thrash Vergo's Haki armor like it was nothing. An abundance of elephant gun hits would gradually render vergo's Armor brittle. Therefore, he won't last long until Luffy completely and utterly stomps him.


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## Imagine (Jun 11, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Really? But Vergo's faster than him and all he needs to do is hit him a few times. He might hit him with a jet gatling or bazooka but anything else really won't do any damage to Vergo.


What exactly says Vergo is faster than Luffy?


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## TouyaTheIceDemon (Jun 11, 2013)

Both Luffy and Vergo should more or less have the same speed... since deducting one's speed in a ink draw series is impossible, it'd be best to state that they're equal in terms of speed.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jun 11, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Really? But Vergo's faster than him and all he needs to do is hit him a few times. He might hit him with a jet gatling or bazooka but anything else really won't do any damage to Vergo.



How is Vergo faster than Luffy when hes the same speed as Sanji? And he couldnt react to a surprise kick but ok


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