# STTGL vs Goku Black and Future Zamasu



## Ferrothorn (Aug 29, 2017)

The two ningen-destroying psychos have shown quite a lot of power, but can they beat Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann? (dat name lol)

Bloodlusted and morals off
Takes place in the entire universe
Movie STTGL and DBS Black/Zamasu
They can fuse if they want to.
They know each other, no prep.

Who wins?


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 29, 2017)

STTGL absorbs any attack Zamasu and Black dish out and powers itself up with them.

It then stabs the two with a giant Giga Drill Breaker.


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## Gordo solos (Aug 30, 2017)

Infinite Zamasu is the only version that has a shot against STTGL


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## OneSimpleAnime (Aug 30, 2017)

since when is STTGL above super characters


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## Cain1234 (Aug 30, 2017)

If they fuse they can definitely win.

But separately Zamasu is trash and Back would be doing most of the heavy lifting.

In this case he can use his Multi dimensional sythe.


Infinite Big Bang storm may have enough fire power to kill Black, and Zamasu can be killed infinity over and over.

Unfused Zamasu vs STTGL = STTGL wins 8/10 times.


Fused Zamasu vs STTGL = Infinite Zamasu wins.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Imagine (Aug 30, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> since when is STTGL above super characters


Not necessarily above but comparable. STTGL is universal and one of it's primarily abilities is absorption. 

It might be faster, though.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 30, 2017)

STTGL takes it.

They have similar DP and STTGL has more hax and spacetime shenangigans. Plus with probability manipulation and power absorption.


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## Imagine (Aug 30, 2017)

Yeah Arc Gurren Lagann did punch through space time IIRC.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 30, 2017)

Excuse me but exactly how is STTGL supposed to land any of its attacks? It's a universe-sized robot up against 2 human-sized enemies with comparable speed, both of whom can teleport. 
Even if STTGL is faster than them in raw numbers, the size difference turns this completely around. Being slightly faster isn't going to help when your fist/drill/rocket/whatever has to traverse thousands upon thousands of lightyears before it reaches your opponent.

Since they know that the giant figure is just a robot piloted by a bunch of lowly ningens, Black and Zamasu are likely to simply port inside of the mech and kill the pilots, which should make STTGL disappear on its own.


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## Imagine (Aug 30, 2017)

Having universal AoE helps.


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

>Port inside of the mech
>When the inside of the mech is another universe
>Because TTGL recreates the Super Spiral Space from within itself

Monado confirmed for not knowing what he's talking about still.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Agent9149 (Aug 30, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Excuse me but exactly how is STTGL supposed to land any of its attacks? It's a universe-sized robot up against 2 human-sized enemies with comparable speed, both of whom can teleport.
> Even if STTGL is faster than them in raw numbers, the size difference turns this completely around. Being slightly faster isn't going to help when your fist/drill/rocket/whatever has to traverse thousands upon thousands of lightyears before it reaches your opponent.
> 
> Since they know that the giant figure is just a robot piloted by a bunch of lowly ningens, Black and Zamasu are likely to simply port inside of the mech and kill the pilots, which should make STTGL disappear on its own.



The same way I kill 99.99% of bacteria when I spray my counters with Clorox.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Imagine (Aug 30, 2017)

Also, Simon himself is universal. He slugged it out with the Anti Spiral in the movie. The Anti Spiral was tearing through all of the mechs with his tendrils. Anti Spiral is the one who powers the Anti Spiral mech.

 Not to mention Anti Spiral has his own MFTL feat with is in the hundreds of billions calc'd by Taco. 

So it definitely won't be that simple.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Port inside of the mech
> >When the inside of the mech is another universe
> >Because TTGL recreates the Super Spiral Space from within itself
> 
> Monado confirmed for not knowing what he's talking about still.



 Ssbmonado is the same jackass who made that god awful wank calc to "prove" Beerus is universe level x 1,000 when he got his jimmies rustled over the fact he'll ultimately lose to Dracula only for the latter to be proven as multiverse level a day later. 

 Let's not kid ourselves here, STTGL by itself would probably pop the DBS universe the fight takes in simply by being present with it's fuck huge size.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

Also, probability manipulation is a bitch, Zamasu nor Goku Black is dodging attacks that have a 100% chance of hitting regardless of size.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 30, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Let's not kid ourselves here, STTGL by itself would probably pop the DBS universe the fight takes in simply by being present with it's fuck huge size.



Yeah isn't the DBS universe like condensed into half the volume of the observable universe? I had the thought of the mecha having to bow it's head just not to hit the ceiling.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Port inside of the mech
> >When the inside of the mech is another universe
> >Because TTGL recreates the Super Spiral Space from within itself
> 
> Monado confirmed for not knowing what he's talking about still.


And why would that present a problem, considering kaikai has been shown several times already to let the user port between universes with no issues?


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Ssbmonado is the same jackass who made that god awful wank calc to "prove" Beerus is universe level x 1,000 when he got his jimmies rustled over the fact he'll ultimately lose to Dracula only for the latter to be proven as multiverse level a day later.
> 
> Let's not kid ourselves here, STTGL by itself would probably pop the DBS universe the fight takes in simply by being present with it's fuck huge size.


Let's not forget the hot-bloodedness.

Seriously, SuperTacocat and I talked about it like a year ago or so about TTGL/STTGL possibly being multiverse level.

It all hinges on if the multi-dimensional labyrinth evolved on its own or due to the Anti-Spiral's direct intervention.

Regardless, I think Simon outright touched a few of those labyrinths and weaved them together to turn them into a drill.

This is starting to look like Dracula vs. Beerus all over again.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> Yeah isn't the DBS universe like condensed into half the volume of the observable universe? I had the thought of the mecha having to bow it's head just not to hit the ceiling.



 I recall it was 10 times the volume of the observable universe if you take the alternative realms into consideration, which STTGL still dwarfs anyway.


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> And why would that present a problem, considering kaikai has been shown several times already to let the user port between universes with no issues?


Probably because neither Black nor Zamasu  will know exactly where the fucking pilots are.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Seriously, SuperTacocat and I talked about it like a year ago or so about TTGL/STTGL possibly being multiverse level.
> 
> It all hinges on if the multi-dimensional labyrinth evolved on its own or due to the Anti-Spiral's direct intervention.
> 
> Regardless, I think Simon outright touched a few of those labyrinths and weaved them together to turn them into a drill.



 Say what you may about the site, but iirc, there was a thread discussing the same exact thing at VBW about low multiverse level TTGL a month or so back... so, maybe it's a chance to look into that again.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 30, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> I recall it was 10 times the volume of the observable universe if you take the alternative realms into consideration, which STTGL still dwarfs anyway.



I thought that was rejected cause we were never given exact size dimensions and we should just use the observable size as the default until other wise.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> I thought that was rejected cause we were never given exact size dimensions and we should just use the observable size as the default until other wise.



 I can only keep up with so much DBS wank feat discussions given that every single event gets treated as the tantamount of "feats of the week" material over at that thread. It likely hasn't given people still use it around here all the time.


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Say what you may about the site, but iirc, there was a thread discussing the same exact thing at VBW about low multiverse level TTGL a month or so back... so, maybe it's a chance to look into that again.


Yeah, it all depends on what their argument for low-multiverse TTGL is. If it's more dimensional-tiering bullshit, then throw it out.

If they're actually going to bother using feats like that multi-dimensional labyrinth, then it might be worth looking into.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Probably because neither Black nor Zamasu  will know exactly where the fucking pilots are.


Because energy sensing isn't a thing any more? Port inside STTGL, then port again to where one of the pilots is, kill him/her, repeat. Simon isn't going to be trivial, obviously, but all the others should be fodder

As for the probability missiles? Can those cross dimensions, too? 'cause given that Black and Zamasu have knowledge, they'd probably port inside of STTGL immediately, before it could even fire the damn things.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Yeah, it all depends on what their argument for low-multiverse TTGL is. If it's more dimensional-tiering bullshit, then throw it out.
> 
> If they're actually going to bother using feats like that multi-dimensional labyrinth, then it might be worth looking into.



 I think someone tried to bring up that 11-dimensional thing for Anti-Spiral, but it got rejected over some contradiction I've forgotten. I think the more recent argument was something about Anti-Spiral having enough power to maintain its own universe sized mecha, Anti-Spiral Space and Spiral Space simultaneously (making it the power of 3 universes) as well as that multiversal labyrinth.


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## shieldbounce (Aug 30, 2017)

The reason for STTGL being rated Universe level+ is that STTGL was formed due to absorbing Granzeboma's Big Bang Storm, which was stated to be able to destroy a universe (which is an actual space-time continuum). 

@Ampchu: Only Simon is rated Multi-Universal for scaling to the Anti-Spiral, the latter being able to maintain two space-time continuums (The Anti-Spiral's energy that maintained the Spiral Universe and the Anti-Spiral Universe disappeared after his death or something) at once effortlessly. However, I question this reasoning, as the death of the Anti-Spiral only caused the Anti-Spiral universe to collapse upon his death, and the Spiral Universe remained intact...

It has been a while since I saw Gurren Lagann, so apologies if I got any information wrong.


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> I think someone tried to bring up that 11-dimensional thing for Anti-Spiral, but it got rejected over some contradiction I've forgotten. I think the more recent argument was something about Anti-Spiral having enough power to maintain its own universe sized mecha, Anti-Spiral Space and Spiral Space simultaneously (making it the power of 3 universes) as well as that multiversal labyrinth.


That's a much better argument anyway... and everything the Anti-Spirals created disappeared after their defeat anyway. Which would include the multi-dimensional labyrinth. That really should be damning evidence for multiverse level TTGLverse.


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Because energy sensing isn't a thing any more? Port inside STTGL, then port again to where one of the pilots is, kill him/her, repeat. Simon isn't going to be trivial, obviously, but all the others should be fodder
> 
> As for the probability missiles? Can those cross dimensions, too? 'cause given that Black and Zamasu have knowledge, they'd probably port inside of STTGL immediately, before it could even fire the damn things.


You're acting like Simon isn't just going to be punching both Zamasu and Black considering he punched out the Anti-Spiral.

You're also acting as if STTGL isn't fast enough to just use the attack it did while it was just Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann and attack at every point of space-time.

Your Dragon Ball wank is part of the reason why I sometimes hate being a part of the DB fandom.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> That's a much better argument anyway... and everything the Anti-Spirals created disappeared after their defeat anyway. Which would include the multi-dimensional labyrinth. That really should be damning evidence for multiverse level TTGLverse.



 Might be worth a discussion, yeah. Multi-dimensional labyrinth by itself is normally weak evidence, but I supposed maintaining three universal powers is strong evidence to reinforce that notion like you said.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 30, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> As for the probability missiles? Can those cross dimensions, too? 'cause given that Black and Zamasu have knowledge, they'd probably port inside of STTGL immediately, before it could even fire the damn things.



They attack their targets in the past, present, and future.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> That's a much better argument anyway... and everything the Anti-Spirals created disappeared after their defeat anyway. Which would include the multi-dimensional labyrinth. That really should be damning evidence for multiverse level TTGLverse.





Ampchu said:


> Might be worth a discussion, yeah. Multi-dimensional labyrinth by itself is normally weak evidence, but I supposed maintaining three universal powers is strong evidence to reinforce that notion like you said.



I thought maintain a universal space doesn't equate to DP.


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 30, 2017)

I don't think that a teleport is gonna help there, the anti spiral ships could teleport and they couldn't get inside the Choginga Gurren Lagann.

And the multi-dimensional labyrinth wasn't shown after they get out, but it's easy to see many different dimension (Yoko with the television... etc).
There's even the size that could be a bit higher for the TTGL, I saw the scan with the size and I think it could be a bit higher than the standard 10 million light years.
BTW, with the fact that a universe have a standard size I don't know how to look at stuff like that


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Might be worth a discussion, yeah. Multi-dimensional labyrinth by itself is normally weak evidence, but I supposed maintaining three universal powers is strong evidence to reinforce that notion like you said.


Would be weak if not for the fact that it's a constantly shifting and evolving labyrinth.

As seen when Kamina shows Yoko several other dimensions in the labyrinth where she's living different lives.

But yeah.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> I thought maintain a universal space doesn't equate to DP.


Uh, yes it does if it's caused by that person's power.

That's one of the reasons why Hades from Saint Seiya is universe level: he maintained Elysium with his power and Elysium is shown to contain billions upon billions of galaxies. That entire universe collapsed when he died at the end of the classic series.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> You're acting like Simon isn't just going to be punching both Zamasu and Black considering he punched out the Anti-Spiral.


I suppose this does depend on what stats Simon actually has. Going by what was said in the previous posts, i.e. with him being multi-universal ("multi" meaning "3"), that shouldn't be enough to one-shot Black and Zamasu, especially since they can fuse.



> You're also acting as if STTGL isn't fast enough to just use the attack it did while it was just Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann and attack at every point of space-time.


Said attack had considerable wind-up, though, much more than Zamasu using kaikai. Do you think it's a reasonable assumption that, if Black and Zamasu get to and kill one of the pilots, it would disrupt the attack? 



> Your Dragon Ball wank is part of the reason why I sometimes hate being a part of the DB fandom.


My supposed wank, as in me in particular, is enough to make you hate liking DB? That's a tad melodramatic if you ask me.
Oh and going by what you yourself have said before, what I'm supposedly doing wouldn't be wanking DB, since all I've mentioned so far are abilities Black and Zamasu factually have. If I'm wrong, then that would be downplaying TTGL.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Uh, yes it does if it's caused by that person's power.
> 
> That's one of the reasons why Hades from Saint Seiya is universe level: he maintained Elysium with his power and Elysium is shown to contain billions upon billions of galaxies. That entire universe collapsed when he died at the end of the classic series.



It's not only based on that, he gets scalling from Athena and Apollo, and the other Gods too.


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> I suppose this does depend on what stats Simon actually has. Going by what was said in the previous posts, i.e. with him being multi-universal ("multi" meaning "3"), that shouldn't be enough to one-shot Black and Zamasu, especially since they can fuse.
> 
> 
> Said attack had considerable wind-up, though, much more than Zamasu using kaikai. Do you think it's a reasonable assumption that, if Black and Zamasu get to and kill one of the pilots, it would disrupt the attack?
> ...


>Considerable wind-up
>When it'll just attack them while they're still in the past
>Will also attack them in the future

You have no fucking clue how that attack works, do you?

Also...

>Multi-universal
>Not enough to one-shot Zamasu

Zamasu's unquantifiably above baseline universe level. Simon is above that level. Just because two universe level characters fused doesn't mean that they're multiverse level.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Considerable wind-up
> >When it'll just attack them while they're still in the past
> >Will also attack them in the future
> 
> You have no fucking clue how that attack works, do you?


If the attack gets interrupted before it can commence, then what do the mechanics of the attack even matter?
It doesn't matter if I have a gun that hits in the past, present and future, if you manage to kick it out of my hand before I can pull the trigger. That's what this is.
The actual startup time of the attack is far greater than what Zamasu/Black would need to port inside of STTGL and find the pilots, or just set up their own universe sized AoE inside of the mech. 



> >Multi-universal
> >Not enough to one-shot Zamasu
> 
> Zamasu's unquantifiably above baseline universe level. Simon is above that level. Just because two universe level characters fused doesn't mean that they're multiverse level.


Oh so it's that stupid chestnut, is it? - Where blowing up 2 separate universes is arbitrarily determined to be infinitely greater than blowing up a single universe a dozen times over?
If the anti-spiral was able to maintain 3 universes, then that simply means that he was producing 3 times the energy of a single universe. Yeah that may be "multiversal" due to the way the energy is applied, but in terms of the amount of energy, it's just three times universal.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

Pretty sure STTGL is a lot faster than Goku Black and Zamasu to make the start-up negligible anyway. That's like saying Goku would be hit out of his kamehameha by a peak human attack because there is noticeable start-up to it... ever heard of audience time perspective?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Keishin (Aug 30, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Considerable wind-up
> >When it'll just attack them while they're still in the past
> >Will also attack them in the future
> 
> ...


Didn't Vegito surpass Beerus who could destroy 2 universes by fighting with champa though


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## SSBMonado (Aug 30, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Pretty sure STTGL is a lot faster than Goku Black and Zamasu to make the start-up negligible anyway. That's like saying Goku would be hit out of his kamehameha by a peak human attack because there is noticeable start-up to it... ever heard of audience time perspective?


Obviously the startup wouldn't be the 30-ish seconds it took in real-time in the anime. That was clearly there for the benefit of the audience, but the whole process IS portrayed to be more elaborate than, say, throwing a simple punch.

So how fast is STTGL exactly?
This matchup is no different than most involving DB - they either blitz and nuke (just from the inside in this case) or get out-sped themselves and haxed to death.


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Didn't Vegito surpass Beerus who could destroy 2 universes by fighting with champa though


That's only in the manga and even then the statement came from Shin's incompetent ass with nothing else backing it up unlike Old Kai's statements back in the BoG arc.



SSBMonado said:


> Obviously the startup wouldn't be the 30-ish seconds it took in real-time in the anime. That was clearly there for the benefit of the audience, but the whole process IS portrayed to be more elaborate than, say, throwing a simple punch.
> 
> So how fast is STTGL exactly?
> This matchup is no different than most involving DB - they either blitz and nuke (just from the inside in this case) or get out-sped themselves and haxed to death.


Quadrillions xFTL at absolute minimum considering that's how fast TTGL was.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> So how fast is STTGL exactly?



 Should be above 25 quadrillion c given even a weaker TTGL scales to that level of speed.


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## Fang (Aug 30, 2017)

Haven't seen the movie but simply being able to teleport between universes and dimensions is not going to do jackshit against SSTGL.

Reactions: Like 1


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## shieldbounce (Aug 30, 2017)

Can anyone here clarify if the universes in DBS are their own space-time continuum, or if all the universes are shared by a single space-time instead?

Another question here is, is Goku Black/Fusion Zamasu able to deal with attacks that are able to go through backwards/forwards in time...

That is not counting the possible speed advantage that the STTGL has over Goku Black, which should be far higher than 25 quadrillion C (Isn't STTGL tens, if not hundreds of times larger than Granzeboma or something?)


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 30, 2017)

Lina Shields said:


> Can anyone here clarify if the universes in DBS are their own space-time continuum, or if all the universes are shared by a single space-time instead?
> 
> Another question here is, is Goku Black/Fusion Zamasu able to deal with attacks that are able to go through backwards/forwards in time...
> 
> That is not counting the possible speed advantage that the STTGL has over Goku Black, which should be far higher than 25 quadrillion C (Isn't STTGL tens, if not hundreds of times larger than Granzeboma or something?)


Separate but people can travel in the gaps between universes in order to get to another universe.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 30, 2017)

Lina Shields said:


> Can anyone here clarify if the universes in DBS are their own space-time continuum, or if all the universes are shared by a single space-time instead?



It's very... weird because they're explicitly stated to being distinct universes, yet it's clear they have no boundary between each other since it's possible to cross between realms and universes like as if they had interconnected space. I'd just argue that the universes in Dragon Ball are static with a set size that doesn't seem to infinitely expand.

 Edit: Ninja's by NightmareCinema.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 30, 2017)

Lina Shields said:


> Can anyone here clarify if the universes in DBS are their own space-time continuum, or if all the universes are shared by a single space-time instead?



They share the same space-time.

1) light from another universe can reach others
2) characters can travel physically to other universes
3) alternate timelines, contain versions of all universes instead of just the one universe where the alterante timeline was created

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Aug 30, 2017)

IIRC the labirynth evovled on its own, and it just trapped their minds in it, which is what caused it to shift and evovle.


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## egressmadara (Aug 30, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> They share the same space-time.
> 
> 1) light from another universe can reach others
> 2) characters can travel physically to other universes
> 3) alternate timelines, contain versions of all universes instead of just the one universe where the alterante timeline was created


1. Would have been valid evidence if it weren't for:


NightmareCinema said:


> Separate but people can travel in the gaps between universes in order to get to another universe.



2. There may be dimensional barriers or see the above.
3. This doesn't necessarily mean the universes share the same space-time continuum. Just that a timeline in DB is wonky compared to how it typically is.


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## Cain1234 (Aug 31, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> The same way I kill 99.99% of bacteria when I spray my counters with Clorox.


But these two aren't the 99.99% they are the 0.001 % who can survive the Clorox and fuck you up.


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## shieldbounce (Aug 31, 2017)

egressmadara said:


> 2. There may be dimensional barriers or see the above.
> 3. This doesn't necessarily mean the universes share the same space-time continuum. Just that a timeline in DB is wonky compared to how it typically is.


For point number two, we are not shown that the dimensional barriers are actually there between entrance/exit from one universe to another, but rather a barrier that has a specific shape (a sphere).

For point number 3, since different versions of all universes in DBS exist from one point of time from a different point in time, it would make more sense that all of the universes in DBS exist within a single space-time continuum rather than each universe being a different space-time continuum altogether.

I will double check to just make sure however.


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## Cain1234 (Aug 31, 2017)

Also a single Universe in Dragon Ball contains at least 3 Universe sized dimensions within itself.

Standard Universe or Cosmos.

The Afterlife and the Makaioshin Realm.

Both of which especially the Makaioshin Realm are equal in size to the observable universe.

Infinite Zamasu contained and infected all 12 Universes in the future Trunks timeline.


The DB Universe is bigger then STTGL Universe which has a size of over 150 billion light years.


Assuming that the universe is the same size as the observable universe. And not an infinite Universe with Aleph Numeral sized.



Considering an infinite Void and exist within the palm of the Daishikan hand, it isn't that farfetched to see that the Universe numbers might have Aleph-null number attached to them.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 31, 2017)

egressmadara said:


> 1. Would have been valid evidence if it weren't for:
> 
> 
> 2. There may be dimensional barriers or see the above.
> 3. This doesn't necessarily mean the universes share the same space-time continuum. Just that a timeline in DB is wonky compared to how it typically is.



1. The Source material contradicts you. The tournament between U7 and U6 takes place in neutral space between the two universes. There is no specific indication where one universe ends or the other begins. These aren't just openings in barrios or gaps. Entire planets exist in this overlapping space. All the universes share the same space.


2. See above.

3. That doesn't disprove what I said at all. The fact that timelines hold all the universes means all the universes share the same time and exist in the same timeline.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 31, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Yeah that may be "multiversal" due to the way the energy is applied, but in terms of the amount of energy, it's just three times universal.





SSBMonado said:


> I suppose this does depend on what stats Simon actually has. Going by what was said in the previous posts, i.e. with him being multi-universal ("multi" meaning "3"), that shouldn't be enough to one-shot Black and Zamasu, especially since they can fuse.



You mean because DBS universe is bigger than a regular universe? Because in terms of amount of energy they're easily above that, just lord genome's drill pack . And  the updated version of TTGL


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## SunRise (Aug 31, 2017)

100% chance to hit, spatial hax and whatnot. There is TTGL movie or something or stuff jut changed?


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## Gordo solos (Aug 31, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> Yeah isn't the DBS universe like condensed into half the volume of the observable universe? I had the thought of the mecha having to bow it's head just not to hit the ceiling.


No, the mortal universe is the size of the observable universe and the afterlife is some unquantifiable size. It's not small at all


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## Adamant soul (Aug 31, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Didn't Vegito surpass Beerus who could destroy 2 universes by fighting with champa though



Nope, he has no actual feats that rival Beerus' and the first arc confirmed neither the Supreme Kai nor Elder Kai had even the slightest fucking clue how strong Beerus actually was and they still don't. Hell his fight with Goku is the most they've ever seen of him making that statement unreliable as shit as he's comparing Vegito to a Beerus that was hardly trying.

The most you can say is Vegito and Merged Zamasu are the strongest non GoDs in the series to date but nothing puts them on par with GoDs yet. That will probably change by the end of the tournament.


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## Imagine (Aug 31, 2017)

>vs thread containing DBS characters
>Thread is soon derailed into DBS feats thread v2

The classic


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## Fang (Aug 31, 2017)

Manga DBS has Toyocuck claiming Blue Vegito is stronger than even Beerus. But again I heard recently that was also a mistranslation, dunno where Vegito in Blueberry scales to Beerus but he's likely have some parity but not surpass him as hard as it is to imagine Beerus still being > Goku + Vegeta combined.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 31, 2017)

Fang said:


> Manga DBS has Toyocuck claiming Blue Vegito is stronger than even Beerus. But again I heard recently that was also a mistranslation, dunno where Vegito in Blueberry scales to Beerus but he's likely have some parity but not surpass him as hard as it is to imagine Beerus still being > Goku + Vegeta combined.


Pretty much this. Not to mention the statement of Vegetto "surpassing" Beerus came from Shin's incompetent ass in the manga so double the shit source (Toyble and Shin).

Whis, a more reliable source, said that Goku and Vegeta working together can give Beerus a good fight but not necessarily beat him.


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## xenos5 (Aug 31, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> 1. The Source material contradicts you. The tournament between U7 and U6 takes place in neutral space between the two universes. There is no specific indication where one universe ends or the other begins. These aren't just openings in barrios or gaps. Entire planets exist in this overlapping space. All the universes share the same space.



No. That neutral space is only a small point of intersection. We get a visual of Universe 6 and 7 side by side when Super Shenron appears at at 0:36 of this video  and from that visual Universe 6 and 7 have clearly defined boundaries. 

And the nameless planet the Universe 6 tournament takes place on is not even really a planet. It's the 4 star Super Dragonball covered in space debris by Qsan90 . As far as we know there aren't any actual planets that exist in the neutral space.


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## Juub (Aug 31, 2017)

Adamant soul said:


> Nope, he has no actual feats that rival Beerus' and the first arc confirmed neither the Supreme Kai nor Elder Kai had even the slightest fucking clue how strong Beerus actually was and they still don't. Hell his fight with Goku is the most they've ever seen of him making that statement unreliable as shit as he's comparing Vegito to a Beerus that was hardly trying.
> 
> The most you can say is Vegito and Merged Zamasu are the strongest non GoDs in the series to date but nothing puts them on par with GoDs yet. That will probably change by the end of the tournament.


If you believe Vegeto is the strongest non GoD you're probably wrong because some mortal is already confirmed to be stronger than Beerus.

Not to mention Gowasu who was a veteran Kaioshin also said he never saw such power. You can call Shin incompetent all you want but Gowasu was pretty well acquainted with his GoD so it's very likely he knew how powerful Rumoosh(or Rumshii, don't know what we call him these days) was and that puts him below Merged Zamasu.

To top it all off we have Champa who was unable to follow Dyspo's speed whereas Vados was able to. This heavily implies Dyspo is faster than Champa. Add that to the mortal who is stronger than a GoD stronger than Beerus then you realize the GoD's really aren't out of reach anymore. Shin and Gowasu may have been correct in saying they had never seen such power and Toyble might be right in thinking Vegeto is stronger than Beerus.

Not that it matters because unlike Goku, Vegeto isn't bound by some rule that automatically puts him below Beerus. He's never gonna fight him anyway. Vegeto and Beerus are both powerful enough to make a mockery out of Goku.

I could definitely see Vegeto being on par or above Beerus but still below the angels.

Anyway, this thread is about STTGL and Zamasu.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 31, 2017)

Fang said:


> Manga DBS has Toyocuck claiming Blue Vegito is stronger than even Beerus. But again I heard recently that was also a mistranslation, dunno where Vegito in Blueberry scales to Beerus but he's likely have some parity but not surpass him as hard as it is to imagine Beerus still being > Goku + Vegeta combined.



the Viz version has East Kaioshin saying "The power of Vegetto...Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus's?!"


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## Adamant soul (Sep 1, 2017)

Juub said:


> If you believe Vegeto is the strongest non GoD you're probably wrong because some mortal is already confirmed to be stronger than Beerus.



Hence why I said that would probably change by the end of tournament if Jiren is indeed revealed to be that mortal. I'm not putting a nameless character over Vegito. 


> Not to mention Gowasu who was a veteran Kaioshin also said he never saw such power. You can call Shin incompetent all you want but Gowasu was pretty well acquainted with his GoD so it's very likely he knew how powerful Rumoosh(or Rumshii, don't know what we call him these days) was and that puts him below Merged Zamasu.



Nice fanfiction. It doesn't matter how well aquainted with someone you are if you've never seen them fight all out and we have absolutely no reason to believe Gowasu ever has seen Ramush's full power. In fact we have evidence against it because GoDs fighting all out would destroy, at the very least their own universe as collateral to the point their angels interfere to prevent this and I'm pretty sure U10 was still around prior to the tournament. That and U10 fighters peaked at Blue tier and even that was only two (Obuni and Zamasu) with only one notable exception. That being Merged Zamasu, the most Gowasu's statement proves if Merged Zamasu had more than he'd ever SEEN before. Enough with the baseless assumptions, bring me ANY flashback or statement that definitively proves Gowasu has seen Ramush's full power or concede that we have no proof that he ever has. Since I KNOW no such thing exists I'm not holding my breath.


> To top it all off we have Champa who was unable to follow Dyspo's speed whereas Vados was able to. This heavily implies Dyspo is faster than Champa. Add that to the mortal who is stronger than a GoD stronger than Beerus then you realize the GoD's really aren't out of reach anymore. Shin and Gowasu may have been correct in saying they had never seen such power and Toyble might be right in thinking Vegeto is stronger than Beerus.



Because Dyspo increases his speed THOUSANDS of times over and therefore well outside of his own tier. Blue level fighters like Hit and Goku were only able to deal with it through feints, tactics and Dyspo being predictable. Golden Frieza, another Blue tier fighter struggled considerably against a FRACTION of Sidra's energy while Beerus literally breathed it away. No while they are closer to GoDs, there's still an obviously MASSIVE gap between them.


> Not that it matters because unlike Goku, Vegeto isn't bound by some rule that automatically puts him below Beerus. He's never gonna fight him anyway. Vegeto and Beerus are both powerful enough to make a mockery out of Goku.



Indeed he's not bound by that rule, on that we agree. It's just a shame Beerus has blatantly better feats and hype from far more credible sources than Vegito does but hey, let's give Gowasu the benefit of the doubt despite having no actual evidence he knows any more about Ramush's power than Shin or Elder Kai do about Beerus. That's totally reasonable right? 


> I could definitely see Vegeto being on par or above Beerus but still below the angels.



He definitely could, probably will be when he eventually fights again but right now he hasn't the feats to prove it. It's as simple as that.

But as you say this is off topic and we both know we'll never change each other's minds on this so I think it best we just agree to disagree and leave it at that yeah.


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## Juub (Sep 1, 2017)

@Adamant soul Just one thing I'd like to address. You keep saying Gowasu hasn't seen Rumoosh *fight* at full power but why does it matter? There's such a thing at Ki sensing. Elder Kaioshin, Kibitoshin and Kaio could feel how fearsome Beerus was and as soon as he woke up. All of them could feel the terrible power. Kaio knew Goku stood absolutely no chance whatsoever against Beerus and mentioned his power was incomprehensible. Kaio is a lesser GoD so there's almost no chance he ever got to see Beerus use that kind of power.

Elder Kaioshin could feel Gohan's immense latent energy while unlocking his potential. Even Goku wasn't aware Goku was hiding so much energy.

Vegeta and Goku knew Fat Buu's power was enormous despite the fact it was hidden.

There is such a thing as Ki sensing. We know Goku couldn't feel Beerus' Ki because he wasn't a GoD at the time but saying one needs to see a being fight at full power to know how powerful they are in a series where people routinely pick up on that by just glancing or focusing is certainly puzzling. Unless Beerus is hiding some kind of transformation like Super Saiyan there's plenty evidence to suggest those guys know just how powerful he is. We can't keep discrediting people just cause we feel like it.

What kind of impressive feat Beerus has anyway? Knocking out SSJG Goku? Supreme God Zamasu one-shotted Blue Goku and Vegeta.

I just want your thoughts on those things. After that we can drop the topic for some other time. Hopefully by then, we got more feats/statements.


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## Adamant soul (Sep 1, 2017)

Juub said:


> @Adamant soul Just one thing I'd like to address. You keep saying Gowasu hasn't seen Rumoosh *fight* at full power but why does it matter? There's such a thing at Ki sensing. Elder Kaioshin, Kibitoshin and Kaio could feel how fearsome Beerus was and as soon as he woke up. All of them could feel the terrible power. Kaio knew Goku stood absolutely no chance whatsoever against Beerus and mentioned his power was incomprehensible. Kaio is a lesser GoD so there's almost no chance he ever got to see Beerus use that kind of power.




That just means the energy level Beerus limits himself to at any given time is still MASSIVELY beyond SSJ3 Goku. Neither Kai KNEW how the Beerus vs SSJG Goku fight was going to end other than the universe probably being destroyed. Elder Kai consistently underestimated their power to the point he stopped even trying to guess how the fight was going to go. Shin himself couldn't even tell Beerus was holding back and letting himself get hit until his Elder told him. They could sense the power he was using but clearly couldn't tell how much he was holding back

Also Elder Kai has been around for other Beerus rampages, or did you forget it was Beerus who sealed him in the first place? 


> Elder Kaioshin could feel Gohan's immense latent energy while unlocking his potential. Even Goku wasn't aware Goku was hiding so much energy.



Sensing potential energy the target isn't aware they have isn't the same as sensing energy that's being actively hidden which they consistently failed the entire BoG arc.


> Vegeta and Goku knew Fat Buu's power was enormous despite the fact it was hidden.



Where are you getting it was hidden? This doesn't change the fact neither they or the Kais (who absolutely can sense God energy) were able to sense the power Beerus was hiding. They could tell he was stronger but had no idea how much.


> There is such a thing as Ki sensing. We know Goku couldn't feel Beerus' Ki because he wasn't a GoD at the time but saying one needs to see a being fight at full power to know how powerful they are in a series where people routinely pick up on that by just glancing or focusing is certainly puzzling. Unless Beerus is hiding some kind of transformation like Super Saiyan there's plenty evidence to suggest those guys know just how powerful he is. We can't keep discrediting people just cause we feel like it.



This is FACTUALLY untrue for reasons I've already stated but if you want more evidence how about this.

Goku couldn't tell how much Frieza was holding back against him, even thought Frieza was bluffing when he stated he was only using 1% and got his ass kicked when Frieza proved he wasn't. Frieza didn't have another transformation.
Vegeta and Trunks were both confident going in to their fights with Perfect Cell and were surprised when they got demolished. They had no clue how strong he actually was
Even Goku needed to fight Cell to actually confirm Gohan would be able to beat him
Gohan was confident he could escape from Buu and failed miserably
Shin couldn't tell how strong the Saiyans were until he saw them fight and was amazed when he did
Goku and Piccolo believed they had a chance against Raditz, we all know how that turned out
Do I need to go on? Ki sensing alone only gets you so far when determining someone's power level, even more so when they are actively hiding it like Beerus does. You still need to get them to use a significant portion of it to make an educated guess of how strong they are. There is plenty of evidence AGAINST them knowing how strong Beerus is and almost NONE supporting it.


> What kind of impressive feat Beerus has anyway? Knocking out SSJG Goku? Supreme God Zamasu one-shotted Blue Goku and Vegeta.



Achieving universal destruction while holding back massively, casually negating universe destroying energy and lets not forget how fighting someone on par with him (aka Champa) would destroy AT LEAST 2 universes as mere (and unavoidable hence Whis and Vados interfering) collateral.

Merged Zamasu and Vegito only have a very unreliable at best statement putting them at that level. Feats wise they are in between Blue tier and GoD tier until further notice.

That is the last I'll say on the subject on this thread as we've gone off-topic long enough.


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## Juub (Sep 1, 2017)

@Adamant soul Alright. We'll talk again when there will be more recent developments. Hopefully.


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## Franco (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Considerable wind-up
> >When it'll just attack them while they're still in the past



Isn't the Time Ring supposed to negate anything that happen in Black's and Zamasu's past?


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Franco said:


> Isn't the Time Ring supposed to negate anything that happen in Black's and Zamasu's past?


It protects Black. But it's not going to protect Future Zamasu.

Not to mention that even that has its limits since if the time manipulation used on past Zamasu is a lot more esoteric than what Beerus did, then not even a Time Ring's gonna be protecting Black from shit.

And even if STTGL's attack doesn't work, Black and Zamasu won't be finding the pilots anyway considering STTGL houses another universe within itself. A universe made out of Spiral Energy. So good luck trying to find pilots' Spiral Energy signatures in a universe made out of the stuff.


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## Franco (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> It protects Black. But it's not going to protect Future Zamasu.
> 
> Not to mention that even that has its limits since if the time manipulation used on past Zamasu is a lot more esoteric than what Beerus did, then not even a Time Ring's gonna be protecting Black from shit.
> 
> And even if STTGL's attack doesn't work, Black and Zamasu won't be finding the pilots anyway considering STTGL houses another universe within itself. A universe made out of Spiral Energy. So good luck trying to find pilots' Spiral Energy signatures in a universe made out of the stuff.



Technically Future Zamasu's immortality could protect him, since Beerus' Hakai should have that effect about wiping him from all timelines/realities (since he was a god). 

Wasn't really arguing all this other shit tbh lol


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> It protects Black. But it's not going to protect Future Zamasu.
> 
> Not to mention that even that has its limits since if the time manipulation used on past Zamasu is a lot more esoteric than what Beerus did, then not even a Time Ring's gonna be protecting Black from shit.
> 
> And even if STTGL's attack doesn't work, Black and Zamasu won't be finding the pilots anyway considering STTGL houses another universe within itself. A universe made out of Spiral Energy. So good luck trying to find pilots' Spiral Energy signatures in a universe made out of the stuff.


Couldn't STTGL just spam universal+ attacks until both are down for the count? Because that's pretty much how Pre-Crisis Plastic Man was able to beat DBS Buu. The only thing he didn't have an answer to is if Buu turns into gas although re-reading the Metamorphosis fight, I noticed Plas could just suck him in Star Platinum style. Eh I'll shut up about this so we don't derail this any further -shrugs-

The mere fact Simon was able to punch out Anti-Spiral should be an indication that it isn't a smart idea to get inside the cockpit or risk getting their faces smashed in at comparable or faster speeds.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Couldn't STTGL just spam universal+ attacks until both are down for the count? Because that's pretty much how Pre-Crisis Plastic Man was able to beat DBS Buu. The only thing he didn't have an answer to is if Buu turns into gas although re-reading the Metamorphosis fight, I noticed Plas could just suck him in Star Platinum style. Eh I'll shut up about this so we don't derail this any further -shrugs-
> 
> The mere fact Simon was able to punch out Anti-Spiral should be an indication that it isn't a smart idea to get inside the cockpit or risk getting their faces smashed in at comparable or faster speeds.


Yeah, STTGL can do that. Easily too.

Hell, it's actually "potentially multiverse level" attacks because of all the things that the Anti-Spiral did.

You know, maintain their own universe, maintain their own multi galaxy-sized mech that has its own universe within itself because it's a carbon copy of TTGL, the multi-dimensional labyrinth, the fact that their mech can dish out universe level+ energies, the fact that all of this shit disappeared when Simon kills them, etc.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Yeah, STTGL can do that. Easily too.
> 
> Hell, it's actually "potentially multiverse level" attacks because of all the things that the Anti-Spiral did.
> 
> You know, maintain their own universe, maintain their own multi galaxy-sized mech that has its own universe within itself because it's a carbon copy of TTGL, the multi-dimensional labyrinth, the fact that their mech can dish out universe level+ energies, the fact that all of this shit disappeared when Simon kills them, etc.


That's definitely overkill. STTGL can do what Akira did to Amon but much more painful against Zamasu and Black.

Shit if STTGL is low-multiverse level could it nuke Zamasu in his Giygas state?


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Yes.


You know who else can beat Giygas Zamasu?

An Abnormal Survivor can

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cain1234 (Sep 4, 2017)

Actually the final fist fight was just that a fist fight.


In terms of fist fighting skills any Zamasu beats Simon. It will come down to Zamasu's or Black's blade Vs Simon's drill
 And Merged Zamasu can't die.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Actually the final fist fight was just that a fist fight.
> 
> 
> In terms of fist fighting skills any Zamasu beats Simon. It will come down to Zamasu's or Black's blade Vs Simon's drill
> And Merged Zamasu can't die.


>Just a fist fight
>When just a few seconds before that, the Anti-Spiral was tearing apart the Dai-Gurren Brigade's mechs on its lonesome
>Making the Anti-Spiral universe/multiverse level on its own
>Simon beat that fucker up

How about you actually watch the movie next time, huh?


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## Imagine (Sep 4, 2017)

They're not making to him


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## Imagine (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Yeah, STTGL can do that. Easily too.
> 
> Hell, it's actually "potentially multiverse level" attacks because of all the things that the Anti-Spiral did.
> 
> *You know, maintain their own universe, maintain their own multi galaxy-sized mech that has its own universe within itself because it's a carbon copy of TTGL, the multi-dimensional labyrinth, the fact that their mech can dish out universe level+ energies, the fact that all of this shit disappeared when Simon kills them, etc.*



Shiiiit wouldn't that be proof for multiversal Anti Spiral?


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Imagine said:


> Shiiiit wouldn't that be proof for multiversal Anti Spiral?


Yup. Exactly.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 4, 2017)

Martial arts skill means nothing if the opposition just speedblitzes the fuck out of them... which is exactly what Simon will do if Goku Black and Zamasu try to board into STTGL.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Martial arts skill means nothing if the opposition just speedblitzes the fuck out of them... which is exactly what Simon will do if Goku Black and Zamasu try to board into STTGL.


Well, last I checked, Simon only scales to the billions xFTL feat that the Anti-Spiral has in the movie, not the full quadrillions that TTGL/STTGL have.

Then again, with the verse's firepower getting an upgrade and the fact that Spiral Power has a fuckton of hax resistance meaning Black can't just spatial cut Simon with his scythe, Simon just tanks all of their blows and then punches the shit out of them.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Bad Wolf (Sep 4, 2017)

Anyway, can they really get in the STTGL? During ep 24 the anti spiral could teleport missiles near their ship but not inside


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Anyway, can they really get in the STTGL? During ep 24 the anti spiral could teleport missiles near their ship but not inside



With the fact that the mechs are shielded by Spiral Power, no.


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## Cain1234 (Sep 4, 2017)

Imagine said:


> They're not making to him


Why, they both have Kai Kai. Which can let you go anywhere in The World.

The can travel anywhere both in and out of the Multiverse. And it isn't even affected by Dimensional Barrier.


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## Imagine (Sep 4, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Why, they both have Kai Kai. Which can let you go anywhere in The World.
> 
> The can travel anywhere both in and out of the Multiverse. And it isn't even affected by Dimensional Barrier.


Probability manipulation


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## Cain1234 (Sep 4, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Anyway, can they really get in the STTGL? During ep 24 the anti spiral could teleport missiles near their ship but not inside


Anti Spirals are not Kais. Them not teleporting through STTGL is not any reason Kai Kai can't. Kai Kai can traverse multiversal and multidimensional spaces. With a timering they can transverse even different timelines.


Imagine said:


> Probability manipulation


Space/time manipulation


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## Nep Heart (Sep 4, 2017)

Probability manipulation just makes teleporting into the cockpit plummet down to literally 0% chance.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Probability manipulation just makes teleporting into the cockpit plummet down to literally 0% chance.


Simon decides to increase the probability of them teleporting in front of a multi galaxy-sized drill 100% just for the lulz, then.


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## SSMG (Sep 4, 2017)

Heh you guys are finally giving Simon the respect he deserves. Took a while but I'm proud of you guys.


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## shade0180 (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Well, last I checked, Simon only scales to the billions xFTL feat that the Anti-Spiral has in the movie, not the full quadrillions that TTGL/STTGL have.
> 
> Then again, with the verse's firepower getting an upgrade and the fact that Spiral Power has a fuckton of hax resistance meaning Black can't just spatial cut Simon with his scythe, Simon just tanks all of their blows and then punches the shit out of them.



didn't simon without his mech kind of blitz anti-spiral in the ending of the movie.



Cain1234 said:


> Anti Spirals are not Kais.



 because teleportation and ability to ignore it is limited to the Kai's, news flash it isn't.


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## xenos5 (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> And even if STTGL's attack doesn't work, Black and Zamasu won't be finding the pilots anyway considering STTGL houses another universe within itself. A universe made out of Spiral Energy. So good luck trying to find pilots' Spiral Energy signatures in a universe made out of the stuff.



Tbh they actually may be able to do that. Goku's now able to use instant transmission to reach Beerus's realm which is many galaxies away (and he uses energy sensing for instant transmission meaning he found the energy signature of Beerus from that distance), and instantaneous movement (which Zamasu should have) was used by Shin to reach Zenos's Palace which is outside the multiverse.

The range of both of their energy sensing and teleportation techniques should be as good as (or better than in the case of Zamasu's instantaneous movement) Goku's.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Tbh they actually may be able to do that. Goku's now able to use instant transmission to reach Beerus's realm which is many galaxies away (and he uses energy sensing for instant transmission meaning he found the energy signature of Beerus from that distance), and instantaneous movement (which Zamasu should have) was used by Shin to reach Zenos's Palace which is outside the multiverse.
> 
> The range of both of their energy sensing and teleportation techniques should be as good as (or better than in the case of Zamasu's instantaneous movement) Goku's.


What's your point, it's still a universe made out of Spiral Energy and they need to find pilots by their Spiral Energy signature.

Good fucking luck with that.

Probability manipulation puts a damper on Black and Zamasu finding the pilots as well.


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## Fang (Sep 4, 2017)

When did the time ring protect Black? I just remember Beerus using Hakai on present Zamasu who was in the same universe, in the same time period, and not immortal being erased by it. Neither Future Zamasu or Black were affected by it so why would this give them protection against probablity ignoring attacks?

Reactions: Like 1


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## xenos5 (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> What's your point, it's still a universe made out of Spiral Energy and they need to find pilots by their Spiral Energy signature.
> 
> Good fucking luck with that.
> 
> Probability manipulation puts a damper on Black and Zamasu finding the pilots as well.



Wouldn't Simon's Spiral Energy Signature especially large? Especially since this is STTGL and the version of Simon that punched out Anti Spiral man to man. 

I'd think it would stick out among the rest of the universe like how especially powerful ki signatures in DB are easier to find.


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## shade0180 (Sep 4, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'd think it would stick out among the rest of the universe like how especially powerful ki signatures in DB are easier to find.



yea, sure lets go with that. shit is he has probability manipulation.
 I think you guys are taking that shit too lightly...

Assuming there's is 100% probability to find simon out of all the pilot in the STTGL... probability manipulations kicks in and puts it to let say 1%, or better yet it kicked in and your target shifted to totally another location because probability manipulation does that... shit is you ain't finding him now.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Fang said:


> When did the time ring protect Black? I just remember Beerus using Hakai on present Zamasu who was in the same universe, in the same time period, and not immortal being erased by it. Neither Future Zamasu or Black were affected by it so why would this give them protection against probablity ignoring attacks?


The Time Ring shit would only really give them defenses against time paradox attacks.

Otherwise, these guys are still banking on the chance that they can port into STTGL in order to find the pilots but multiple arguments have already been given as to why that's not happening.


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## Bad Wolf (Sep 4, 2017)

Teleporting from other universe were the same thing that the anti spiral's army was doing, still they couldn't get past their shield and teleport inside. Even without probability manipulation I don't see how they can teleport inside


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## xenos5 (Sep 4, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> yea, sure lets go with that. shit is he has probability manipulation.
> I think you guys are taking that shit too lightly...
> 
> Assuming there's is 100% probability to find simon out of all the pilot in the STTGL... probability manipulations kicks in and puts it to let say 1%, or better yet it kicked in and your target shifted to totally another location because probability manipulation does that... shit is you ain't finding him now.



Is the probability manipulation really passive? I thought the crew inside the mech had to do some calculations or some shit to enact it like with the probability alteration missiles. If they had fired them normally they wouldn't have hit those enemies that were shifting along a different plane of space or something like that iirc. It was right after super galaxy gurren laggan had formed. If they don't see or know Zamasu and Black are just going to teleport inside why would they think to calculate against the probability of the pilots being found?

It's like if they didn't see an attack coming why would they know to calculate against the probability of it hitting them? They aren't omniscient so they don't know when they'll have to alter probability.


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## xenos5 (Sep 4, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Teleporting from other universe were the same thing that the anti spiral's army was doing, still they couldn't get past their shield and teleport inside. Even without probability manipulation I don't see how they can teleport inside



Did the Anti-Spira's army even try to teleport inside the mech? They just seemed to attack it endlessly from what I recall. If they tried and failed that'd be that but do you have any evidence that's what happened? It could just be PIS that they didn't even attempt it.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## Cain1234 (Sep 4, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> yea, sure lets go with that. shit is he has probability manipulation.
> I think you guys are taking that shit too lightly...
> 
> Assuming there's is 100% probability to find simon out of all the pilot in the STTGL... probability manipulations kicks in and puts it to let say 1%, or better yet it kicked in and your target shifted to totally another location because probability manipulation does that... shit* is you ain't finding him now*.




What do you mean, it *locks* onto your Ki, so even if you use probability manipulation to move, they will just find them instantly again. Dimensional Barriers are not a problem for kaioshins.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> What do you mean, it *locks* onto your Ki, so even if you use probability manipulation to move, the will just find them instantly again. Dimensional Barriers are not a problem for kaioshins.


It doesn't matter if it keeps locked on to the pilots because probability manipulation will make it so that Black and Zamasu NEVER reach the pilots to begin with.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Is the probability manipulation really passive? I thought the crew inside the mech had to do some calculations or some shit to enact it like with the probability alteration missiles. If they had fired them normally they wouldn't have hit those enemies that were shifting along a different plane of space or something like that iirc. It was right after super galaxy gurren laggan had formed. If they don't see or know Zamasu and Black are just going to teleport inside why would they think to calculate against the probability of the pilots being found?
> 
> It's like if they didn't see an attack coming why would they know to calculate against the probability of it hitting them? They aren't omniscient so they don't know when they'll have to alter probability.


You're still on about this? Talk about clinging to a stupid argument just to give your favored side a win... You've been proven wrong on this before already so just drop it.

Yes, it's passive. Every single attack that hits or misses their marks during the final battle, whether in Episode 27 or in the Lagann-Hen movie, is due to probability manipulation.


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## Bad Wolf (Sep 4, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Did the Anti-Spira's army even try to teleport inside the mech? They just seemed to attack it endlessly from what I recall. If they tried and failed that'd be that but do you have any evidence that's what happened? It could just be PIS that they didn't even attempt it.


They teleported bombs ride next to the cathedral terra to hit it. If they show that it's quite simple to understand that they couldn't teleport inside because that was the tactic. They didn't said that they couldn't but the anti spiral's army never spoke a word

And even kittan did the probability manipulation and he didn't do any calculation


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## xenos5 (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> You're still on about this? Talk about clinging to a stupid argument just to give your favored side a win... You've been proven wrong on this before already so just drop it.
> 
> Yes, it's passive. Every single attack that hits or misses their marks during the final battle, whether in Episode 27 or in the Lagann-Hen movie, is due to probability manipulation.



Oh yeah. This has been brought up before. I think the counter argument you gave was that Kittan altered probability without thinking when he destroyed the core of the death spiral machine since the chance of that happening was 0%? Alright.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Volt manta (Sep 4, 2017)

Warning: Skip if you don't want a long ass derivative on certainty mechanics:

*Spoiler*: __ 




Not necessarily chiming in on the argument here (I think the argument itself is invalid because you can't necessarily have "more forceful" teleportation; it's a measure of distance), but how do we rate stuff like probability manipulation? Given the scope of its nature, I personally think it is entirely valid to scale it up to certain things even if it hasn't actually shown the ability to perform them (0% ability to make contact or 100% chance to land a hit is fairly plausible for most high-ends that use this ability). But it seems to be one of those things that opens itself up to a potential NLF just because of how open-ended it is and how much you can extrapolate from it. Something like "there is 100% chance you will lose to me" or "there is 100% chance you'll kill yourself" is actually feasibly arguable as an application of use for certain aspects of the skill (with no real way to argue it since we're only dealing with percentages/potential PIS here. Any argument over this to say that it's likely is just as plausible to say that it's unlikely). So's "there's a 0% chance anything you do will work," with no real way to counter that beyond having higher scale probability manipulation. And if we say we have to limit it for one character, then we have to do so for everybody. There's no set standard for evaluating the difference between one act of probability and the next unless it's tied to something of a physical, measurable nature, so something like "this next hit will hit for certain" is _actually _just a thing to say as "my opponents will hit themselves." And in regards to percentages that differ in between 1% and 100% (roughly 90% of probability manipulators)? Even the difference between 1% and 99% likely to happen is still the likelihood of somebody being able to argue "Well it _could _happen!" or "it _won't_ happen!" Granted based on the numbers and match-ups it would go from plausible to downright stupid (figure something along the lines of a Black Cat vs Galactus thread), but there's still no rational way to argue it (Other than "But it can't!" Which it doesn't need to be stated all the problems with that argument). 

So in other words, probability manipulation is the kind of thing that _could _potentially lead to causality manipulation, thereby making the high majority of fights against a probability manipulator _literally_ unwinnable. This would be "achievable" by virtually anyone who possesses the ability (Instances of probability manipulation that are very specific and exclude these things and those who actually need to actively perform it would be two exceptions but to my knowledge fall within the lower denominator of things), with no real way to put a standard or capping on it unless we tie it to things that are actually quantifiable via measurement (range, energy, physical limitations). Which means we either limit the capabilities of probability manipulators to what its been shown on-panel to do (which limits the ability severely and I think is counter-productive to it). Set some sort of limitation, or just kick open the floodgates and let some idiot make the (hillariously stupid but seemingly valid) claim that Longshot could potentially steamroll 90% of fiction.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cain1234 (Sep 4, 2017)

Making new abilities using the concept is a slippery slope in itself. 
This is just a single step requirements.to give some one like Yorwack. Universe+ since he can imagine reality and it becomes the future.

Probability manipulation doesn't really effect space/time fully in most cases probality manipulation is a offset power of time itself.

The number of times given for a repeatation of an event occurs can make for a at least one.probality to infinite.

Space manipulation is less effected by probality manipulation. As space is defined and measurable.

Not all probality manipulation can stop all teleportation.


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## Blade (Sep 4, 2017)

good battle

STTGL wins with mid/high difficulty 

and then, Ryoma solos STTGL, on foot

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

Blade said:


> good battle
> 
> STTGL wins with mid/high difficulty
> 
> and then, Ryoma solos STTGL, on foot


Ryoma, Kouji and Gai unleash a multiversal+ brofist

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blade (Sep 4, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Ryoma, Kouji and Gai unleash a multiversal+ brofist



Shitbane tries to appear and unleash it's multiversal+ shenanigans 

Tobikage instantly appears and curbstomps it's skull outside of Shitgoku's house

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

Blade said:


> Shitbane tries to appear and unleash it's multiversal+ shenanigans
> 
> Tobikage instantly appears and curbstomps it's skull outside of Shitgoku's house


Shittybane steps on Mellowlink's multiversal+ land mines.

Then Chirico and he shoot it in the face

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 4, 2017)

STTGL's probability manipulation shenanigans are banned. You may continue.


*Spoiler*: __ 



BTW isn't saying Zamasu and Black will never find Simon because of probability manipulation kind of a NLF?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Blade (Sep 4, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Shittybane steps on Mellowlink's multiversal+ land mines.
> 
> Then Chirico and he shoot it in the face



Mellowlink uses the parachute trick like Venom Boss did on Phantom Pain and sends Shitbane flying into the No Aru land

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

Blade said:


> Mellowlink uses the parachute trick like Venom Boss did on Phantom Pain and sends Shitbane flying into the No Aru land


Mellowlink's motorcycle >>>>>>> Shittybane

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 4, 2017)

doflamingo solos shittybane

ok ok ok i wish so


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> STTGL's probability manipulation shenanigans are banned. You may continue.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Stop changing the match rules midway through the fucking thread simply because you don't want Zamasu and Black losing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Sep 4, 2017)

When one has to change the rules mid-way in a match-up to arbitrarily impose handicaps, it probably says that it wasn't a good match-up in the first place.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Sep 4, 2017)

Also, it's not really a NLF when probability manipulation in TTGL has demonstrated feats above what Goku Black and Zamasu can handle.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Also, it's not really a NLF when probability manipulation in TTGL has demonstrated feats above what Goku Black and Zamasu can handle.


Not to mention probability manipulation isn't an end-all-be-all ability considering higher-leveled opponents tend to have counters for it.

So this "NLF" bullshit is more them trying to discredit TTGL's abilities due to them not liking Black and Zamasu losing.


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## Agent9149 (Sep 4, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> BTW isn't saying Zamasu and Black will never find Simon because of probability manipulation kind of a NLF?



No. Because there are people with better probability manipulation. People who can negate probability negation. Accausality. And even stronger powers.


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Not to mention probability manipulation isn't an end-all-be-all ability considering higher-leveled opponents tend to have counters for it.
> 
> So this "NLF" bullshit is more them trying to discredit TTGL's abilities due to them not liking Black and Zamasu losing.


I don't get the logic of it being an NLF. The range of the probability manipulation ability is universal+ at bare minimum. Which is within Black and Zamasu's range. No one has said or suggested anything higher in this thread. They're going to have to call me when someone said TTGL has probability manipulation on par with Xenogears.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## shade0180 (Sep 4, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Xenogears.



Yea that's going to be one shit of a hurdle to climb.


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Yea that's going to be one shit of a hurdle to climb.


Goes to show that nobody suggested the ability is that high, just that it has universal+ range at the very least.

Which was the point of me mentioning Xenogears to show how absurd that is.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Goes to show that nobody suggested the ability is that high, just that it has universal+ range at the very least.
> 
> Which was the point of me mentioning Xenogears to show how absurd that is.


Wanna make it low multiversal+?

Because that's where STTGL is standing at the moment.

Reactions: Like 1


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## shade0180 (Sep 4, 2017)

not like it changes anything.


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Wanna make it low multiversal+?
> 
> Because that's where STTGL is standing at the moment.


I see nothing wrong with this 

Even Final Form Zamasu isn't safe from STTGL fucking over probability like a three dollar hooker.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 4, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I see nothing wrong with this
> 
> Even Final Form Zamasu isn't safe from STTGL fucking over probability like a three dollar hooker.


This is what happens when you pit Dragon Ball against a verse with more esoteric hax.

Fine, Dragon Ball has some soulfuck and spatial manipulation now.

TTGL's been doing the latter since 2007.


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## Volt manta (Sep 4, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Making new abilities using the concept is a slippery slope in itself.
> This is just a single step requirements.to give some one like Yorwack. Universe+ since he can imagine reality and it becomes the future.
> 
> Probability manipulation doesn't really effect space/time fully in most cases probality manipulation is a offset power of time itself.
> ...


Reality warping is actually a lot more restricted than probability manipulation. It tends to be limited by the imagination of the person in question and by the strength of recognizable feats. Someone who can form a single chair isn't likely to be able to conjure a planet out of, with the justification that they've been unable to perform exactly that or anything at that level.

Probability manipulation is more problematic because (to my knowledge) there's not exactly a form of scaling it. Planetary level "luck" or universal level "luck" mean exactly the same thing, and any effect that range may have against the user is useless both for feasible matches (hardly any match-up's going to place at planetary distances) and for OBD's standard (10m). Outside that, there's virtually no measurement that exists that could describe the difference between "is very unlikely to land an attack" and "all powers and abilities accidentally backfire and accidentally kill themselves." Outside percentages and likelihood, which you may notice is _exactly _what probability is supposed to dictate. The ability itself becomes part of the argument, so you either have to remove it entirely, or accept that _if_ it functions in a battle, it functions to its full capacity. Which is a more or less an unavoidable by-product- we are dealing with luck here, after all.



Ampchu said:


> Also, it's not really a NLF when probability manipulation in TTGL has demonstrated feats above what Goku Black and Zamasu can handle.


I'm not really speaking to this match. If you want my opinion, y'all are really focusing on the wrong argument. Even aside from the probability manipulation, no one has given a reasonable argument as to how either side of Team Goku even has the ability to deal with the teleportation issue brought up earlier in the thread. The argument makes no sense; even if you were able to teleport across an entire universe worth of distance (or even into other dimensions for that matter), that doesn't guarantee in any matter that you would be able to teleport across a barrier specifically designed to keep out teleportation. The equivalency doesn't even make sense when you think about it: I can get across a barrier specifically designed to stop teleportation by... teleporting far enough?  Roughly equivalent to "I can mindfuck a robot just by thinking hard enough" or "I can break through a time stop just by increasing my speed," it only makes sense when you have no idea of the variables you're dealing with. Or you're the main protagonist in a shonen manga.


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## Imagine (Sep 4, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Making new abilities using the concept is a slippery slope in itself.
> This is just a single step requirements.to give some one like Yorwack. Universe+ since he can imagine reality and it becomes the future.
> 
> Probability manipulation doesn't really effect space/time fully in most cases probality manipulation is a offset power of time itself.
> ...


TFW The Ashtanga's probability missiles did exactly that against Super Galaxy Gurren's attacks 

And then Super Galaxy's missiles negated The Ashtanga's time travel teleportation by attacking in the past, present, and future


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