# Zoro vs. Sanji



## Shanks (Jul 26, 2014)

So I feel like joining the crew and make a ZoroxSanji thread too!

Location: stairs and hallways
Mindset: IC
Distance apart: 10 stair steps apart

How would this battle go?


----------



## Luke (Jul 26, 2014)

Zoro wins.


----------



## zoro (Jul 26, 2014)

Sanji can just fly, while Zoro will have to run up or down the stairs to reach him. It's basically a 2 vs 1 scenario, and I think the steps alone could give Zoro high diff. The duo wins mid diff


----------



## Shanks (Jul 26, 2014)

Kinjishi no Shiki said:


> Sanji can just fly, while Zoro will have to run up or down the stairs to reach him. It's basically a 2 vs 1 scenario, and I think the steps alone could give Zoro high diff. The duo wins mid diff



It's 3 on 1 though.


----------



## Amol (Jul 26, 2014)

Another zoro x sanji thread.  
Nami wins no diff.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Jul 26, 2014)

Don't call it ZoroXSanji guys. We enter dangerous territory here.

OT: Zoro has a range advantage which forces Sanji to go into a close range fight which he will lose eventually high diff.


----------



## zoro (Jul 26, 2014)

Sabo said:


> It's 3 on 1 though.



Oh yeah, forgot the hallways. Zoro will start running around and eventually fall to his death. Sanji isn't even needed


----------



## Amol (Jul 26, 2014)

Kinjishi no Shiki said:


> Oh yeah, forgot the hallways. Zoro will start running around and eventually fall to his death. Sanji isn't even needed



Stairs killed Kuina
Kuina > Zoro
Stairs > Zoro
Confirmed.


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 26, 2014)

Amol said:


> Stairs killed Kuina
> Kuina > Zoro
> Stairs > Zoro
> Confirmed.


Punk Hazard door > Sanji.


----------



## Firo (Jul 26, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Punk Hazard door > Sanji.



Punk Hazard door> Stairs


----------



## tanman (Jul 26, 2014)

Stairs > Zoro
So Stairs + Sanji shitstomp him.


----------



## Dae2 (Jul 26, 2014)

In an actually fight situation they would probably tie more than anything. Of the straight wins, Zoro would likely edge out Sanji there. In this specific situation? Zoro gets lost running the opposite direction of Sanji.


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Jul 26, 2014)

Real fight then Zoro extreme maximum extremeMCextreme maximus supreme extreme difficulties Sanji, i see it as Akainu vs Aokiji. Unless Sanji gets his legs cut off.


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 26, 2014)

I puked up reading the last 2 post.

Zoro mid diff.


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Jul 26, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> I puked up reading the last 2 post.
> 
> Zoro mid diff.



Lol'd at mid diff.


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 26, 2014)

tanman said:


> Stairs > Zoro
> So Stairs + Sanji shitstomp him.



I'll be waiting the next time you make a serious post about "Zorotards", just saying.


----------



## Ruse (Jul 26, 2014)

Zoro would need high/extreme diff to beat Sanji


----------



## Rob (Jul 26, 2014)

C'mon Sabo... I know you're better than OPtiers and Extravlad for crying out loud.


----------



## Suit (Jul 26, 2014)

If Zoro can reach Sanji without getting lost...

Zoro, high-diff.


----------



## Nox (Jul 26, 2014)

Kinjishi no Shiki said:


> Sanji can just fly, while Zoro will have to run up or down the stairs to reach him. It's basically a 2 vs 1 scenario, and I think the steps alone could give Zoro high diff. The duo wins mid diff



Have you ever heard of an air slash? Better yet 1080 Pound cannon

@Thread. Zoro wins this at Mid High Difficulty.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 26, 2014)

Zoro mid-high difficulty for now


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 26, 2014)

DxM said:


> Have you ever heard of an air slash? Better yet 1080 Pound cannon
> 
> @Thread. Zoro wins this at Mid High Difficulty.



Have you heard of dodging?

Sanji wins. Hallways and stairs are a huge handicap for Zoro.


----------



## Slenderman (Jul 27, 2014)

Wow, just wow. 

Zoro high diff. 

I could expect this 4 years ago but this topic has been beaten up and over used more than a punching bag.


----------



## GreenStache (Jul 27, 2014)

If his eye is on his target then he won't get lost. Besides Sanji isn't that fast and his CoO isn't all exceptional. He couldnt even get out of the way of Doffy's five color string. How long do you think he will evade Zoro's lightening fast air projectiles? lol 

Zoro mid-diff


----------



## Lycka (Jul 27, 2014)

Zoro mid difficulty.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 27, 2014)

Zoro get lost and lose mid difficulty 

Seriously, Zoro win High difficulty also lol at zoro winning mid-difficulty


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

Zoro winning mid difficulty should be the general consensus.
Pica is around Vergo's strength (most likely stronger) whereas Sanji is confirmed to be weaker than Vergo.
Zoro clearly imply that Pica and himself aren't in the same league.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 27, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Zoro winning mid difficulty should be the general consensus.
> Pica is around Vergo's strength (most likely stronger) whereas Sanji is confirmed to be weaker than Vergo.
> Zoro clearly imply that Pica and himself aren't in the same league.



Feat and Protayal say otherwise


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

> Feat and Protayal say otherwise


Hypocrisy.
Before this chapter everyone was agreeing on Pica being stronger than Vergo.

Now you guys are denying cause you don't want to see how strong Zoro is.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 27, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Hypocrisy.
> Before this chapter everyone was agreeing on Pica being stronger than Vergo.
> 
> Now you guys are denying cause you don't want to see how strong Zoro is.



Hype wise, I agree, but Vergo is basically Dofla's first mate and his most trusted subordinate
while Pica just have Viola's hype and show me a feat that put Pica above Vergo please?


----------



## Ruse (Jul 27, 2014)

I've always put Vergo above Pica.....


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 27, 2014)

God, this thread turned into a Vergo vs Pica just for the love of the Zorotard


----------



## GreenStache (Jul 27, 2014)

Zoro would defeat Sanji with the same difficulty he had with Kaku in any scenario. Sanji lacks the main two things that would really push Zoro in a fight, durability, and speed. If Sanji was nearly as fast as G2 Luffy, in the air and on ground, he'd be a serious problem for Zoro. Sadly he doesn't really excel in that department so he'll never be much of a threat to him.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 27, 2014)

Since when does Sanji lack speed?


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> Since when does Sanji lack speed?


Since Sanji was said to be "as fast as fishmen" whereas Zoro outclassed Hody Jones in speed.


----------



## GreenStache (Jul 27, 2014)

Sanji indeed fast but it is nowhere at a level were he can get hits in and evade before Zoro's swords make contact with his leg. His durability and CoA is shit so once Zoro gets a clean hit Sanji's legs will coming right the fuck off.


----------



## Ruse (Jul 27, 2014)

Sanji lacks in speed? Dafuq?


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

Zoro is faster than Sanji it was confirmed long ago.


Sanji's speed is only fishman lvl.


*Spoiler*: __ 







Zoro is faster.


----------



## GreenStache (Jul 27, 2014)

please give me any highlighted speed moments with Sanji. list a moment were an enemy acknowledge how fast he can move


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jul 27, 2014)

Zoro beats Sanji with High-Extreme Diff. They've always been close to each other and Zoro looking badass for the 40th time doesn't change that.



Extravlad said:


> Zoro is faster than Sanji it was confirmed long ago.
> 
> 
> Sanji's speed is only fishman lvl.
> ...


Implying that pre-monster Hody is faster than Sanji......


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

> Implying that pre-monster Hody is faster than Sanji......


Under water he is as fast as Sanji becaue he's a fishman.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 27, 2014)

Sanji has better mobility with his sky or blue walk, but Zoro has greater reflexive speed than Sanji. Zoro could dodge Kuma's light speed attacks pre-timeskip, could cut the pacifista in half not only before he could release his beam but before Sanji broke his neck(he appeared behind the pacifista by the time Sanji broke it), could cut a fishman under water on Base Hody's standard before he can react, could cut Surume's 200 meters limb in 6 parties in the blink of an eye. In short, Zoro has faster attacking/defending speed


----------



## Yourmam (Jul 27, 2014)

Sanji has never been acknowledged for his speed you say?


The weakest incarnation of Sanji has enough speed to simultaneously one-shot 5 guys.




Though dodging bullets isn't all that impressive anymore



Note that Kalifa could react to Nami's lightning but not to Sanji




Blitzing a sniper meters above him no big deal.


Oh and by the way when Sanji did this...

Due to the depth he was moving under pressure thousands of times greater than the Zoro/Hody fight.



As far as movement speed goes he's probably the fastest in base of the entire crew. He'll still lose but he's not just gonna sit there and let himself get spammed by air slashes.


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

> Due to the depth he was moving under pressure thousands of times greater than the Zoro/Hody fight.


How is that greater than the Zoro/Hody fight? Zoro is FASTER than Hody a fishman whereas Sanji is just as fast as them.

And don't tell me this pressure bullshit, Oda doesn't even care about that.


----------



## Ruse (Jul 27, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Zoro is faster than Sanji it was confirmed long ago.
> 
> 
> Sanji's speed is only fishman lvl.
> ...



Comparing attacking speed to movement speed come on now ck


----------



## GreenStache (Jul 27, 2014)

Indeed Sanji is fast and the best strawhat to look at in combat but his movement speed is nothing that Zoro can't answer to.


----------



## Ruse (Jul 27, 2014)

GreenStache said:


> Indeed Sanji is fast and the best strawhat to look at in combat but his movement speed is nothing that Zoro can't answer to.



No one is saying Zoro can't beat Sanji loool


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 27, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> And don't tell me this pressure bullshit, Oda doesn't even care about that.



_He definitely does not, it's not like he invented something as silly as the coating of ships._


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

> He definitely does not, it's not like he invented something as silly as the coating of ships.


You really believe that Sanji would be faster if he was in Zoro's shoes against Hody?
I don't.

Oda was trying to make us understand that Zoro is faster than Sanji by putting these 2 comparisons with the fishmen.


----------



## Typhon (Jul 27, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> You really believe that Sanji would be faster if he was in Zoro's shoes against Hody?
> I don't.
> 
> Oda was trying to make us understand that Zoro is faster than Sanji by putting these 2 comparisons with the fishmen.



lol I can do this too. You really believe Zoro is faster then Sanji? I don't.

Oda had Sanji out-running Zoro in *Nami's body*! Zoro is way slower then Sanji.


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

> Oda had Sanji out-running Zoro in Nami's body! Zoro is way slower then Sanji.


That was meant to be a funny scene, a joke whereas the comparisons I posted are from serious fights.

Zoro is faster than Sanji deal with it.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

Hi guys am new to this forum but anyway I think Zoro wins very high diff- extreme diff


----------



## Ruse (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Hi guys am new to this forum but anyway I think Zoro wins very high diff- extreme diff



Spot on mate


----------



## Slenderman (Jul 27, 2014)

GreenStache said:


> Zoro would defeat Sanji with the same difficulty he had with Kaku in any scenario. Sanji lacks the main two things that would really push Zoro in a fight, durability, and speed. If Sanji was nearly as fast as G2 Luffy, in the air and on ground, he'd be a serious problem for Zoro. Sadly he doesn't really excel in that department so he'll never be much of a threat to him.



There's one more thing. Damage output. Zoro deals more and take's more than Sanji. 

If Zoro gets a properly placed clean hit like 1080, chances are it's over for Sanji. Whereas if Sani gets in Hell Memories chance are Zoro would walk out of that and not be on the verge of unconsciousness or death.


----------



## Slenderman (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Hi guys am new to this forum but anyway I think Zoro wins very high diff- extreme diff



Welcome to the forums.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Welcome to the forums.


Thanks about your other post don't u think Sanji's higher end moves could deal a lot of serious damage to Zoro?


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 27, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> You really believe that Sanji would be faster if he was in Zoro's shoes against Hody?
> I don't.
> 
> Oda was trying to make us understand that Zoro is faster than Sanji by putting these 2 comparisons with the fishmen.



*Spoiler*: __ 







_*



			But you're humans, so if you just dived down like that, you'd die from the pressure.

Yeah, even then submarine couldn't take it that far down...
		
Click to expand...

*_
_Yes, considering the water pressure Sanji's feat of matching the fishmen underwater is superior to Zoro's. Sanji is faster than Zoro in water, on land or in air._


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> You really believe that Sanji would be faster if he was in Zoro's shoes against Hody?
> I don't.
> 
> Oda was trying to make us understand that Zoro is faster than Sanji by putting these 2 comparisons with the fishmen.



I think its quite Obvious Sanji is faster he outright state' that he would be able to get to kinemon body the fastest and Zoro didn't argue about that


----------



## tanman (Jul 27, 2014)

I like this new member. A Zoro fan with reasonable opinions.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> I think its quite Obvious Sanji is faster he outright state' that he would be able to get to kinemon body the fastest and Zoro didn't argue about that



thought zoro didnt give a damn about that samurai until kinemon shown them how to cut fire. he had no reason to argue about it.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> thought zoro didnt give a damn about that samurai until kinemon shown them how to cut fire. he had no reason to argue about it.



Well considering they argue about everything why would this situation be different?


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Jul 27, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> That was meant to be a funny scene, a joke whereas the comparisons I posted are from serious fights.
> 
> Zoro is faster than Sanji deal with it.



Zoro faster than Sanji? HAHAHA. How does Zoro using an "attack" move depict his speed vs Sanji's blue walk, which is a "movement" technique. Sanji ran for two years from the okama. Water pressure doesn't matter? lmao. Deal with it? That's admitting you have nothing else to say. I will say Zoro will beat Sanji though, but not because of speed.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 27, 2014)

Really, the only thing that keep Sanji for winning this is his lack of durability feat against cutting attack


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 27, 2014)

This "they've always been  close to each other, why should it change now" will always be the reason for problems. People just can't admit that their favorite character is not as strong as the character they hate the most.

I'm not saying this is the case for everyone, but not admitting it is a part of the issue for everyone.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> This "they've always been  close to each other, why should it change now" will always be the reason for problems. People just can't admit that their favorite character is not as strong as the character they hate the most.
> 
> I'm not saying this is the case for everyone, but not admitting it is a part of the issue for everyone.



But would'nt that be and unfair statement seeing as thats what people always use to justify Luffy and Zoro are Equal?


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Well considering they argue about everything why would this situation be different?



the situation is different because zoro completly didnt give a darn about kinemon.


----------



## Lycka (Jul 27, 2014)

tanman said:


> I like this new member. A dupe of mine who's a closet Sanji fan with reasonable opinions.


Fixed Tanman.​


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> the situation is different because zoro completly didnt give a darn about kinemon.



Not really, weather Zoro gave a fuck or not sanji said he was better than Zoro at that task know zoro's competitive nature yet he didnt argue shows that he actually agreed with sanji.


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> But would'nt that be and unfair statement seeing as thats what people always use to justify Luffy and Zoro are Equal?



Zoro is not Sanji and Sanji is not Zoro.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Not really, weather Zoro gave a fuck or not sanji said he was better than Zoro at that task know zoro's competitive nature yet he didnt argue shows that he actually agreed with sanji.



too bad your statement got 2 big flaws.

flaw number 1:

he said he can swim better than all of them, what doesnt imply he can swim faster as all of them.

flaw number 2:

he said it right before he dived into the lake, so there was not even a chance for zoro to argue.


Now go troll somewhere else, best would be in africa.


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 27, 2014)

And stop the kinemon discussion already, it's dumb. If Sanji wasn't there; Zoro would've rescued Kinemon. The SHs are good in heart, how many times do they have to prove it...

And Sanji is a better swimmer, stop arguing this already lol


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Zoro is not Sanji and Sanji is not Zoro.



I get that but am asking why does that pass for Luffy and Zoro but not the other? By the way i don't think Zoro and Sanji are equal at all but they are closer than what most people think


----------



## Ruse (Jul 27, 2014)

I'm liking Pirate Hunter Eddy hopefully he's here to stay.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> too bad your statement got 2 big flaws.
> 
> flaw number 1:
> 
> ...



Lol 
1.  if you can swim better would'nt that make you faster than the other person 
2. He couldve have dived in after to show that sanji statement was false but no

Is that an insult or something?


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 27, 2014)

Sanji has greater mobility(can move in air, sky, ground) and top speed with his sky or blue walk notably but he lacks range attacks and is limited in attacking close, close area where Zoro is at his best because he possess better reflexive speed than him, has greater reach with his 3 swords(one small mistake and he could cut a martial artiste like Sanji in one attack) and technique, possess range attacks to attack mid-long range with his slashes, greater fire power(a slash the size of a mountain), has greater stamina(remember Thriller Bark), is a tank, so in conclusion he beats Sanji in almost every area where it counts in comba


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> I get that but am asking why does that pass for Luffy and Zoro but not the other? By the way i don't think Zoro and Sanji are equal at all but they are closer than what most people think



For one, Zoro's dream forces him to get stronger each day that passes, while Sanji's dream doesn't and his fans just want him to be that guy who's strong for no reason, when he has more stuff going on for him than Luffy and Zoro combined (none fights related stuff).

2nd, Manga portrayal, Sanji and Zoro were never portrayed to be equal on panel. Rivalry does not equal strength, which people already know, but dismiss when it suits them. On panel however, Zoro was portrayed to be Luffy's equal. 

Zoro and Luffy has always been the two major power horses of the crew. They've been portrayed side by side more than once and their strength has been highlighted to be on par with each other more than once.  I do believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro, but with a small margin that is not even noticeable.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> For one, Zoro's dream forces him to get stronger each day that passes, while Sanji's dream doesn't and his fans just want him to be that guy who's strong for no reason, when he has more stuff going on for him than Luffy and Zoro combined (none fights related stuff).
> 
> 2nd, Manga portrayal, Sanji and Zoro were never portrayed to be equal on panel. Rivalry does not equal strength, which people already know, but dismiss when it suits them. On panel however, Zoro was portrayed to be Luffy's equal.
> 
> Zoro and Luffy has always been the two major power horses of the crew. They've been portrayed side by side more than once and their strength has been highlighted to be on par with each other more than once.  I do believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro, but with a small margin that is not even noticeable.



Alright those are good points but i don't think dreams can always determine strength that easy but they are driving factor. Also i kinda feel that all 3 of them have had similar protrayals the thing is that Sanji's whole character is built around underestimation

Don't get me wrong i love Zoro its just i feel people always infuse badass> everything which clouds alot of peoples judgement


----------



## Slenderman (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Thanks about your other post don't u think Sanji's higher end moves could deal a lot of serious damage to Zoro?



Sanji's higher end moves would do damage to Zoro but not to the point where he would almost be finished imo. 

Zoro having superior COA makes it harder for Sanji to give him fatal injuries.

We have yet to see Sanji's variety of high end moves thanks to Oda's neglection of him. 

Zoro would most certainly feel the attack and be hurt by it, but I don't see him taking a lot of serious damage from one blow. As Sanji is in a sort, a brawler. And in most cases the brawler doesn't land fatal hits in one blow like a swordsman. i.e.:Zoro. 

2-3 of his high end moves connecting will deal serious damage imo. Tough i'm leaning more so towards the former.


----------



## Typhon (Jul 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> For one, Zoro's dream forces him to get stronger each day that passes, while Sanji's dream doesn't and his fans just want him to be that guy who's strong for no reason, *when he has more stuff going on for him than Luffy and Zoro combined* (none fights related stuff).
> 
> 2nd, Manga portrayal, Sanji and Zoro were never portrayed to be equal on panel. Rivalry does not equal strength, which people already know, but dismiss when it suits them. On panel however, Zoro was portrayed to be Luffy's equal.
> 
> Zoro and Luffy has always been the two major power horses of the crew. They've been portrayed side by side more than once and their strength has been highlighted to be on par with each other more than once.  I do believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro, but with a small margin that is not even noticeable.


Pretty much all of what you said can apply to Zoro and Sanji aswell. I don't know how many times those two have been portrayed along side eachother while Luffy was on his own. It seems like a lot of justifying for Zoro to be close to Luffy and far from Sanji. The bolded is just false. Luffy has more going for him then either Zoro and Sanji with none of it being combat related. He has the ability to turn everyone into an ally, has high connections on both the marines, pirates, and revolutionary sides, and has had guidance from big names since he was 4 or so. 

Dreams and occupations don't go far as an argument, especially in shounen. There's plenty of examples why that is.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 27, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Lol
> 1.  if you can swim better would'nt that make you faster than the other person
> 2. He couldve have dived in after to show that sanji statement was false but no
> 
> Is that an insult or something?



1. i wonder if this is a question but still nope, show manga evidence, else its just trolling.

2. again why should zoro risk his life for something he doesnt give a shit about?

3. maybe thought u know it better without any facts.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 27, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> 1. i wonder if this is a question but still nope, show manga evidence, else its just trolling.
> 
> 2. again why should zoro risk his life for something he doesnt give a shit about?
> 
> 3. maybe thought u know it better without any facts.



I don't know how am goin to get manga evidence that if someone can swim better they should be faster in water is that not common sense?


----------



## tanman (Jul 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> For one, Zoro's dream forces him to get stronger each day that passes, while Sanji's dream doesn't and his fans just want him to be that guy who's strong for no reason, when he has more stuff going on for him than Luffy and Zoro combined (none fights related stuff).




Bull. Shit.
Whitebeard's dream was to have a family.
Shanks' dream was simply to captain a pirate crew.
Kizaru has no dreams or ambitions.
Doflamingo just wants to watch the world burn.


*Ambition does not give you power. 
Being persistent and challenging yourself gives you power.*




oOLawlietOo said:


> 2nd, Manga portrayal, Sanji and Zoro were never portrayed to be equal on panel. Rivalry does not equal strength, which people already know, but dismiss when it suits them. On panel however, Zoro was portrayed to be Luffy's equal.
> 
> Zoro and Luffy has always been the two major power horses of the crew. They've been portrayed side by side more than once and their strength has been highlighted to be on par with each other more than once.  I do believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro, but with a small margin that is not even noticeable.




Bull. Shit.
You say that two characters having a rivalry doesn't mean they have equal power. And that's true. Then you go on to say that Zoro was portrayed as Luffy's equal, despite the only incident of that being Whiskey Peak where they acted like rivals and failed to fight to a conclusion. So you're directly contradicting your own argument.

_*The incredibly backwards and ironic part is that you're saying that people dismiss this fact when it suits them and then you proceed to do just that in the next sentence. You're almost giving me too much to work with.*_


Then you say that Luffy and Zoro have been portrayed side by side more than one, but for every example of Luffy and Zoro fighting side by side, I can give you three examples of Zoro and Sanji fighting side by side. Particularly since the skip, despite posters constantly trying to suggest that the difference in the power has increased since the skip.

You then say that that their strength has been highlighted to be on par more than once, but could you give me an on-panel canonical example of that outside of Whiskey Peak, a comical brawl where they fought to no conclusion and fought over trivial gripe?


So you have maybe one or two examples of Luffy = Zoro. And no examples of Zoro >> Sanji. But those who argue against you have:

1) Zoro and Sanji defeating two opponents with the same difficulty who were separated by only twenty douriki. While Luffy defeated someone with almost double the douriki.

2) At least a dozen clashes between Zoro and Sanji where Sanji's legs met Zoro's swords equally.

3) At least a dozen examples of Zoro and Sanji attacking an opponent together, including at least two since the skip (particularly notable is Luffy soloing a Pacifista while they teamed up to take one down).

4) Luffy consistently fighting and defeating opponents that hugely outstrip Zoro and Sanji's opponents.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 27, 2014)

A question Tanman, EOS Zoro vs EOS Sanji. Who wins? And with what amount of difficulty?
Another question. Current Apoo vs Current Kidd. Who wins? And with what amount of difficulty?
EOS Apoo vs EOS Kidd. Who wins? And with what amount of difficulty?


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 27, 2014)

> Bull. Shit.
> Whitebeard's dream was to have a family.
> Shanks' dream was simply to captain a pirate crew.
> Kizaru has no dreams or ambitions.
> ...



You clearly missed my point, shown by your aggressiveness.
My point is, Sanji doesn't need to be THAT strong for his character to be likable or for it to have the same importance as Zoro.  And Zoro's dream does force him to get stronger. His dream is to be the WSS. He can't accomplish that dream without getting stronger each day. 



> Then you go on to say that Zoro was portrayed as Luffy's equal, despite the only incident of that being Whiskey Peak where they acted like rivals and failed to fight to a conclusion.


Zoro and Luffy don't have any rivalry between them. And rivalry is not always related to strength, I wouldn't expect you to understand that seeing how you're so passionate about defending Sanji's strength. 

And I'm not gonna reply to the rest of your stuff, cuz it has been replied to so many times and I'm pretty sure you've seen the replies before. so there's no need for me to repeat the cycle over and over.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 27, 2014)

It was the time skip that widened the gap.

Sanji should have been sent elsewhere. That tranny island was just not a good match for him at all.


----------



## Slenderman (Jul 27, 2014)

He should have went under a place where the person was trying to train him. Like Mihawk and Ray-san. 

Not where he is getting chased 24/7.


----------



## tanman (Jul 27, 2014)

Blake said:


> A question Tanman, EOS Zoro vs EOS Sanji. Who wins? And with what amount of difficulty?
> Another question. Current Apoo vs Current Kidd. Who wins? And with what amount of difficulty?
> EOS Apoo vs EOS Kidd. Who wins? And with what amount of difficulty?




Zoro wins. It's hard to guess. High or very high difficulty, I would say.
Kidd wins. It's hard to guess. Anywhere from high difficulty to mid difficulty.
Kidd wins. It's hard to guess. Anywhere from high difficulty to mid difficulty.







oOLawlietOo said:


> You clearly missed my point, shown by your aggressiveness.
> My point is, Sanji doesn't need to be THAT strong for his character to be likable or for it to have the same importance as Zoro.  And Zoro's dream does force him to get stronger. His dream is to be the WSS. He can't accomplish that dream without getting stronger each day.



I have no anger towards you. I hope I didn't come across as aggressive. I was actually going for dismissive.

You're right that likability = power. But that's kind of a strawman since I never suggested I was concerned with Sanji's likability. Zoro's dream being linked to his strength doesn't make a difference as I made very clear with the examples I gave. You're only reiterating a tired argument rather than responding to my criticism of it.




oOLawlietOo said:


> Zoro and Luffy don't have any rivalry between them. And rivalry is not always related to strength, I wouldn't expect you to understand that seeing how you're so passionate about defending Sanji's strength.
> 
> And I'm not gonna reply to the rest of your stuff, cuz it has been replied to so many times and I'm pretty sure you've seen the replies before. so there's no need for me to repeat the cycle over and over.



I have no preference for any of these characters. I'm didn't put my words in bold to demonstrate my passion, but to demonstrate how dumbfounded your logic made me. Please explain the difference between Luffy v Zoro and Zoro v Sanji rather than just stating that their different. Please provide actual arguments rather than statements of opinion.






_Deciding to not respond to me doesn't do a very good job at masking the fact that you don't have a response of any substance to give. Interestingly enough, I've been trying very hard to avoid responding to some of the more ardent Zoro fans, but I simply couldn't resist responding to this post since it was so meaty with self-contradiction.
_


----------



## 3B20 (Jul 27, 2014)

Zoro wins between high and extreme, an interval that has never changed up until now. Zoro's portrayal has been fluctuating between Luffy and Sanji since the very beginning. He's been portrayed many times as near equal to Luffy, but the sentence stays true if you replace Luffy with Sanji in it. There have been times when the gap felt wider (Whiskey Peak, Skypeia, the end of Thriller Bark, currently), others when it looked negligible (Little Garden, Alabasta, Water7/Enies Lobby, Fishman Island). It's obvious that this is one of the former situations; but i think it's likewise obvious that Oda has something big in mind for Sanji. We'll see.
About the timeskip training, I've always failed to understand how Sanji's one is so disregarded. True, he hadn't outstanding teachers, but he had to fight strong opponents and run all the time. I think Oda made it quite clear that the run part was not just comedy, but one of the best possible workouts for a guy who is all leg-focused. Remember the introduction of Sky Walk in FI?


----------



## tanman (Jul 27, 2014)

@Rowdy Zoro Fans and M3 Separatists

Please, in the future, "expect [me] to understand" everything you can think of. I hope that if you have high expectations of me, perhaps you'll bring your strongest arguments and no longer feel as if you have to limit yourself.


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 27, 2014)

I'm not interested in this debate.

Sanji is as strong as Zoro and much better in everything else. Enjoy your day.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 27, 2014)

tanman said:


> Zoro wins. It's hard to guess. High or very high difficulty, I would say.
> Kidd wins. It's hard to guess. Anywhere from high difficulty to mid difficulty.
> Kidd wins. It's hard to guess. Anywhere from high difficulty to mid difficulty.


I disagree, but it's okay. Why do you consider Kidd can mid diff Apoo but Zoro can't with Sanji when Apoo was also portrayed as someone trying to challenge Kidd in everything?


----------



## Dae2 (Jul 27, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> It was the time skip that widened the gap.
> 
> Sanji should have been sent elsewhere. That tranny island was just not a good match for him at all.




The island that is home to a form of cooking not found anywhere else is a bad match for the ship's cook?


----------



## tanman (Jul 27, 2014)

We have a lot more information about Zoro and Sanji. The fact that these two characters clash a lot isn't the central reason I believe they're very close in strength. I have several other reasons that I mentioned earlier, and I'll talk about again if you'd like to discuss that.


Did Kidd and Apoo have a direct clash? I don't recall. Because arguing certainly isn't the basis for an analysis of how they would do in a fight with each other. Regardless, we know next to nothing about Apoo, while I give Kidd a lot of hype for being one of the "Big Three" supernovas and wanting to challenge Big Mom. Plus, I suppose I see a lot of potential in his devil fruit, but I guess there's some bias there. Apoo and Kid just doesn't seem analogous to Zoro and Sanji for those reasons. The M3 has been portrayed as very close in power for a while, but we've just been introduced to this new alliance and their dynamics. Apoo could just as easily be the second strongest of the three or the third strongest. Further, mid difficulty was just a part of a range. It could be a high difficulty fight, even EOS.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 27, 2014)

Kidd and Apoo tries to challenge each other everytime they meet since their first meeting at shabondy and Kidd clearly shows discomfort everytime he is near. And yes they did clash in Kidd's hideout(check). Their relationship is exactly similar to that of Zoro and Sanji. Infact, Apoo has even more arguments to be closer considering Kidd and Apoo are both supernovas and Brownbeard put him in the top5 causing chaos alongside Kidd, Hawkins, Drake and Law. On the other side we have a supernova(Zoro) against someone who isn't even one(Sanji).


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 27, 2014)

This thread is still alive? :sanji

The argument about loldream is nonsense  simply because Whitebeard had a dream non-combat related yet he was the WSM


----------



## tanman (Jul 27, 2014)

Blake said:


> Kidd and Apoo tries to challenge each other everytime they meet since their first meeting at shabondy and Kidd clearly shows discomfort everytime he is near. And yes they did clash in Kidd's hideout(check). Their relationship is exactly similar to that of Zoro and Sanji. Infact, Apoo has even more arguments to be closer considering Kidd and Apoo are both supernovas and Brownbeard put him in the top5 causing chaos alongside Kidd, Hawkins, Drake and Law. On the other side we have a supernova(Zoro) against someone who isn't even one(Sanji).



Well in that case, I could see some kind of rivalry developing there. Really, I've always kind of lowballed Apoo because he seems "weird." He and Hawkins may well be quite close to Kid and depending on their success they may or may not continue to be that close.

Both being supernovas doesn't really seem like a strong argument to me since it's just based on hitting a certain bounty at a certain time. And the difference in bounty between Zoro and Sanji was only 43 million, while the difference between Apoo and Kidd was 117 million. I wouldn't say Apoo has a stronger case for closeness than Sanji either considering what I said earlier about EL and their parallel potrayal.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 27, 2014)

tanman said:


> Well in that case, I could see some kind of rivalry developing there. Really, I've always kind of lowballed Apoo because he seems "weird." He and Hawkins may well be quite close to Kid and depending on their success they may or may not continue to be that close.
> 
> Both being supernovas doesn't really seem like a strong argument to me since it's just based on hitting a certain bounty at a certain time. And the difference in bounty between Zoro and Sanji was only 43 million, while the difference between Apoo and Kidd was 117 million. I wouldn't say Apoo has a stronger case for closeness than Sanji either considering what I said earlier about EL and their parallel potrayal.


No, the supernova argument is on the contrary a great and important one. You know why? Because the 100 millions and more method to select them was something arbitrarily created by Oda around Shabondy. Before Shabondy, we knew nothing about it. It means he could have change the rule anytime he wanted if he really wanted Sanji to be in the same rank as them. The fact he settled the bar around there was exactly because he wanted to Luffy and Zoro evolution to happen faster than Sanji's because of their greater dreams highlighted again during Thriller Bark against Kuma. He could have even settled the bar to 200 and more if he wanted only Luffy as a supernova, but he didn't. The supernovas from the worse generations are destinated to create chaos like they already did(according to Brownbeard) and break gears(like Law mentioned in punk hazard) and it's what is translated by the difference in their portrayal


----------



## 3B20 (Jul 27, 2014)

In Thriller Bark Sanji was ready to sacrifice himself just like Zoro. And he also promised to become the most troublesome man for the Marines one day. 
Zoro is obviously special, he's a first mate sharing a very rare relationship with his captain. The Supernova status highlights this widely acknowledged fact. This being said, Sanji's theme is being the guy you don't see coming. Underestimated, sometimes ignored or outright unknown (see Little Garden/Alabasta, Maxim, the Gates of Justice and so on). I think that's the main reason why he's not a Supernova; one can also add the fact that having 3 SN in a crew would look really unbalanced.


----------



## tanman (Jul 27, 2014)

@Blake

I disagree. 
Shakky first dubbed the supernovas, if I recall correctly. It wasn't omniscient narration.

But more importantly, ambition and power level weren't the important factors in finding Supernova. We know this because there's pretty clearly a large power disparity within the Supernovas and doubtlessly several supernovas aren't targeting One Piece or becoming WSS or whatever is considered a "combat oriented goal."  

I highly doubt the intention in that was to indicate that Luffy and Zoro would grow faster rather than to portray the Strawhats as on par with the other supernova crews (none of which had three members as supernovas). Zoro is only destined to "break gears" as a member of the Strawhats, otherwise he's been characterized as someone who would live a life more like that of Mihawk. Which is to say that Sanji is similarly dangerous and relevant, but simply didn't hit the bar as a result of being weaker and taking out weaker opponents (not to mention his face not actually being known to the WG).

If Oda has meant to demonstrate Sanji falling behind Luffy and Zoro, he's done a terrible job considering he's consistently pit Sanji against stronger opponents and paired him off with Zoro and Jinbe since the skip.


----------



## GreenStache (Jul 27, 2014)

Sanji didn't even understand where Zoro and Luffy's will to sacrifice everything for their dreams came from. He has nothing in common with them besides his inhuman strength

Luffy and Zoro...

Both have dreams that surround a promise that was made long ago 
Both have items that reflect that promise
Both the same strict belief in dying for ones honor in battle 
Both have shown multiple times that they will never give in to physical trauma
Both have shown they will also not give in to public humiliation (Mock Town)
Both have dreams that guarantees a title as "the best/strongest/greatest" etc.
Both stated their need for the other to achieve the goal in order for the other to suceed (Baratie)
First to get bounties
Both are Supernovas
Both have final opponents (no one specifically has interest in Sanji)
Both have a warriors like interest in fighting
Both couldn't care less about sob stories
Both like to consume unhealthy amounts of food/liquor
Both can "read" eachother in combat for effective teamwork
Both have multiple highlighted moments of their physical progress throughout the GL
Both have trained with LEGENDS (Sanji trained with a fucking tranny )

I can seriously go on.


----------



## Lycka (Jul 27, 2014)

Blake said:


> Kidd and Apoo tries to challenge each other everytime they meet since their first meeting at shabondy and Kidd clearly shows discomfort everytime he is near. And yes they did clash in Kidd's hideout(check). Their relationship is exactly similar to that of Zoro and Sanji. Infact, Apoo has even more arguments to be closer considering Kidd and Apoo are both supernovas and Brownbeard put him in the top5 causing chaos alongside Kidd, Hawkins, Drake and Law. On the other side we have a supernova(Zoro) against someone who isn't even one(Sanji).



Burnnn.


also, Sanji isn't a supernova he's just a cook.

Zoro hit him so hard, 





It turned him into this


----------



## GreenStache (Jul 27, 2014)




----------



## Extravlad (Jul 27, 2014)

Zoro is said to be as strong as Luffy in 2 databooks, we even had a strength comparison with Sanji in the ONE PIECE RED character and Sanji was rated below Zoro/Luffy.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 27, 2014)

tanman said:


> @Blake
> 
> I disagree.
> Shakky first dubbed the supernovas, if I recall correctly. It wasn't omniscient narration.
> ...


And she dubbed it at shabondy. We knew nothing about it before that, so clearly the random method selection he created was to make a clear distinction between Luffy/Zoro and Sanji there

And how can you tell some supernovas don't want to find one piece? How can you judge the power disparity as well when we've not even seen them in major fights yet?

What i know is that Sanji's portrayal since the timeskip is to tell us that Sanji remains in the monster trio, but falls behind Luffy and Zoro. Sanji never fought stronger people. He skirmiched with them and the skirmiches never ended up well for him. Luffy and Zoro did fight and defeat stronger opponents since the timeskip. 

Base Hyouzou could block and inflect damage on gear second Luffy when Wadatsumi was put out against a pistol attack. Hyouzou even got a similar transformation to Hody before fighting Zoro. Zoro's opponent terribly outclassed Sanji's during FI and he even had to share his opponent with Jinbe. 

In PH, he fought no one besides a skirmich with Vergo that didn't ended up well, same goes in Dressrosa with Doflamingo. Zoro on the other side had a similar portrayal with Luffy against Monet(saying to both that she has no chance) and Tashigi was so frightened by his power that she was wondering how someone can be so strong(despite knowing Smoker). And now eventhough the fight isn't over yet, it seems he is dispatching a elite officer without much difficulty when Sanji was dominated in a short skirmich against another. Luffy on the other side is about to defeat the boss. The portrayal is clearly not the same


----------



## Slenderman (Jul 27, 2014)

I personally am interested in seeing how Sanji does against the BM pirates. 

That should be a good indicator of where he is and how close/far away he is from Luffy and Zoro.


----------



## Shanks (Jul 28, 2014)

6 pages huh?

/Stairs solo - this should have ended here...


----------



## Mike S (Jul 28, 2014)

Zoro would defeat Sanji with high difficulty during any point in the manga.


----------



## tanman (Jul 28, 2014)

Blake said:


> And she dubbed it at shabondy. We knew nothing about it before that, so clearly the random method selection he created was to make a clear distinction between Luffy/Zoro and Sanji there
> 
> And how can you tell some supernovas don't want to find one piece? How can you judge the power disparity as well when we've not even seen them in major fights yet?
> 
> ...



Well, no. I don't see how defining the supernova bar at 100 mil was done purposefully to make a distinction between Zoro and Sanji. The arbitrary nature of the number doesn't serve to prove that. By the same reasoning, I could argue that the huge disparity between the bounties of Luffy and Zoro indicate Luffy moving away from the rest of the Strawhats. 100 mil is ultimately just a number that provides exclusivity to the group without overemphasizing the Strawhats part in the Supernovas, not a plot to alienate Sanji. He's weaker and less famous, but there's no logic to support the supernova distinction being indicative of a trend.

Well, for starters: Zoro and Killer aren't targeting One Piece. Their captains might but they aren't. Law seems to be more focused on Doflamingo. Drake went straight to Kaido when entered the New World. And this last one is speculative, but I highly doubt Capone is after One Piece (financial gain matches his theme).  They all had very different portrayals in Sabaody, and I would definitely argue that Kid was given a lot more focus and more hype than Capone. I certainly don't think there's good reason to think that all of the Supernovas are on the exact same level or that they were all stronger than Sanji back then, let alone now. That argument sounds similar to the one used to describe why Fujitora would beat Marco (several posters argued that mere status as an admiral means you're stronger than Marco).



Zoro and Luffy haven't defeated opponents stronger than Vergo as far as I can recall, so that's false. Sanji defeating Wadatsumi was demonstrative of the scale of his attacks rather than his power. Since all of the New Fishman Pirates were nobodies to the Strawhats, there's not much distinction between fighting one nobody and fighting another. After all, Usopp was given a named opponent and Robin wasn't. Sanji and Jinbe were portrayed as similarly dominant over Wadatsumi.   You can't create an upper limit on power based off a low diff fight.

Vergo >> Ceaser or Monet so it simply isn't a fair comparison. Doing well against weak opponents isn't better than fighting evenly (and it was an even fight despite you saying it didn't end well) with much stronger opponents. Vergo's feats still surpass Pica's, so the same argument is applicable there. If you're interested in character compliments (what Tashigi or Monet said about Zoro), what should be even more illuminating is what stronger characters say. Vergo, Tashigi, and the other marines on scene made note of Sanji's high level of power. Also recall Doflamingo and Fujitora, who were both similarly complimentary of Sanji and Zoro. 

There simply isn't sufficient evidence to indicate that Smoker, Sanji, Zoro, and Luffy aren't on the same level. Oda has continued to hint at their rivalries and partnerships. Oda has never favored subtlety. It would have been incredibly simple at this point for Sanji to make it clear that he was falling behind. Instead, Sanji has been paired off with Zoro and Jinbe and given opponents clearly stronger than Zoro and Luffy's opponents. The downside to all this is that Sanji hasn't gotten the easy victories that they've been getting and has thus looked weaker.

If Luffy or Zoro or Kinemon looked good against Doflamingo, I would agree with you right now. That would demonstrate that Luffy was significantly superior to Sanji. Instead, Doflamingo made a joke out of him just like Sanji and Smoker. Why wouldn't Oda use an opportunity like that to prove your hypothesis?






*EDIT - Damn, I didn't mean for this post to be so long. 
But Blake, compliments to you. Of the people I've argued with about this, you've presented the most diverse and reasonable case.  I still disagree with you. But arguing with you is much better than arguing with OPTiers or someone like that.*


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm not a Zoro hater or fan but,
If Luffy wasn't the main character, people will probably say Zoro beats him mid diff too, despite all the feats Luffy has. Zoro is the most overrated character in One Piece IMO, even though he deserves a lot of praise for what he's done. Zoro is the most loved character in OP, just look at all the people in here with Zoro inspired names, etc. I understand why people love him so much but some of the stuff people say is simply ridiculous. I get that he's a badass and his devotion to Luffy is excellent. Sometimes i feel like Oda is using Zoro as fanservice for all the Zoro fans. I also don't like how all his fights are like slideshows. All it shows is his stance after using a move on an opponent. Maybe i am a Zoro hater.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 28, 2014)

tanman said:


> Well, no. I don't see how defining the supernova bar at 100 mil was done purposefully to make a distinction between Zoro and Sanji. The arbitrary nature of the number doesn't serve to prove that. By the same reasoning, I could argue that the huge disparity between the bounties of Luffy and Zoro indicate Luffy moving away from the rest of the Strawhats. 100 mil is ultimately just a number that provides exclusivity to the group without overemphasizing the Strawhats part in the Supernovas, not a plot to alienate Sanji. He's weaker and less famous, but there's no logic to support the supernova distinction being indicative of a trend.
> 
> Well, for starters: Zoro and Killer aren't targeting One Piece. Their captains might but they aren't. Law seems to be more focused on Doflamingo. Drake went straight to Kaido when entered the New World. And this last one is speculative, but I highly doubt Capone is after One Piece (financial gain matches his theme).  They all had very different portrayals in Sabaody, and I would definitely argue that Kid was given a lot more focus and more hype than Capone. I certainly don't think there's good reason to think that all of the Supernovas are on the exact same level or that they were all stronger than Sanji back then, let alone now. That argument sounds similar to the one used to describe why Fujitora would beat Marco (several posters argued that mere status as an admiral means you're stronger than Marco).
> 
> ...



He wanted to make a distinction most likely because he wanted to show Zoro aspire a greater future in terms of character strength than Sanji and that is translated due to his greater dream again highlighted in Thriller Bark. For the same reason Zoro wanted to sacrifice himself for someone having greater dream, Sanji wanted to do the same with Zoro. Notice as well, he started to give new status to him like vice-captain of the crew(by a supernova like Urouge or Bartolomeo during this arc), which again is to imply a disparity. Sanji complimented Zoro in PH by saying he will always find a way to win due to his strong will, despite himself almost giving up his dream in FI or a fight against Vergo. Zoro also seemed angry in latest chapter when he wasn't taken seriously by either Pica/Doflamingo who gave him lower stars than Luffy and Usop. 

Bounties are unrelated to strength, so they hardly get any value. We see people like Bellamy with 195 Millions bounty but we all know they are far below M3 level. Ranks like Admirals, Yonkous, Supernovas(especially from the worse generation) are the most valuable points in the new world, with Admirals and Yonkou standing at the summit and worse generation trying to break their gears

Fair point concerning the supernovas ambitions but concerning Law he seemed to target one piece pre-timeskip when he told to his crew that one piece wouldn't vanish if they wait before going to the NW, so it's likely defeating Doflamingo was only one of his main objectives

Concerning the difference in opponents and compliments you missed the point. The compliments are situational. I don't take all of them as the same value. The compliment the marines gave to Sanji was to show Sanji is a strong individual, but it alone can't determine exactly how strong. You're only strong in function of someone just like Lucci saying Franky is strong didn't make him M3 or close to his level. The Tashigi comment however is noteworthy because she questioned how someone can be so strong(in generality) when knowing someone like Smoker, so it implied the level in which Zoro was operating was above the likes of Smoker. 

As for the skirmiches itself, like i've said, Sanji never fought stronger people, he only skirmiched with them. It's like saying Franky is M3 level because he skirmiched with Rob Lucci and he complimented him on his superhuman strength when he was infact far above his level(arguably above even that of his captain). It's basically the same with Doflamingo complimenting Sanji or Fujitora complimenting Zoro. All of them were short skirmiches that aren't always enough to identify a character strength depending on the outcome.

Sanji never participated in main fights and won. His sole fight that he won was in FI, a fight he shared with Jinbe. Besides, the skirmich against Vergo was a leg vs leg confrontation(so Sanji's fort) with a Vergo not using his armament and lacking his famous bamboo attached to his nickname, so clearly not going all out, yet Sanji seemed to think he would have lost if the fight continued. The first time Vergo made contact with his leg, he slightly broke the strongest part of his body, and again in a short skirmich. 

Zoro on the other side fought another elite officer and despite fighting him longer(fight seperated in 2 situations) and being in a territorial advantage(controlling entire castel and landscape, he couldn't even inflect damage on a Zoro lacking knowledge on his abilities, wasting his energy uselessly and the moment he found the way, he got the upper hand and implied to be on another level than him. Regardless of how you rate Vergo and Pica featwise, the manga puts elite officers at around the same level. 

Oda didn't make a clear cut concerning their level similarly to Arlong commanders who until now we still can't tell for sure who was stronger than the other. When Oda makes no distinction i suppose he want us to believe they are roughly all on the same level. And infact, if we go suggestion-wise, Pica seems to be stronger considering he is the officer Viola fears the most, he is apparently kept in cage by Doflamingo(he asked Doflamingo to allow him to go all-out which implies Doflamingo rarely allows him to do that), and Fujitora said he was "dangerous". I think you're overestimating Vergo because of his haki. Pica likely has haki as well and even if he didn't, he displayed a great mastery over his DF. The portrayal isn't the same

Thanks for the compliment anyway. It's a pleasure for me to argue with you as well. And damn it surely is long


----------



## tanman (Jul 28, 2014)

Blake said:


> He wanted to make a distinction most likely because he wanted to show Zoro aspire a greater future in terms of character strength than Sanji and that is translated due to his greater dream



I can accept that that's how you interpreted it. However, I don't see that implication at all. Sometimes humble dreams lead to great power, Whitebeard's dream is the most obvious example (and finding the All Blue, which is likely connected to One Piece, actually isn't that humble at all). The creation of the supernovas wasn't about separating Zoro from the rest, but highlighting those at the top.






Blake said:


> again highlighted in Thriller Bark. For the same reason Zoro wanted to sacrifice himself for someone having greater dream, Sanji wanted to do the same with Zoro.



I don't understand what you're saying here. They both wanted to sacrifice themselves, but Zoro wanted it to be him rather than Sanji. 




Blake said:


> Notice as well, he started to give new status to him like vice-captain of the crew(by a supernova like Urouge or Bartolomeo during this arc), which again is to imply a disparity.



Yes, people have thought of him as that because he's the second strongest. That's unsurprising and doesn't indicate a widening gap. Several crews and teams have first mates very close in power to their third strongest: Kaku/Jyabura, Marco/Jozu, Ohm/Shura, and many more.



Blake said:


> Sanji complimented Zoro in PH by saying he will always find a way to win due to his strong will, *despite himself almost giving up his dream in FI or a fight against Vergo*. Zoro also seemed angry in latest chapter when he wasn't taken seriously by either Pica/Doflamingo who gave him lower stars than Luffy and Usop.



I don't understand what you're saying in bold. I don't recall Sanji giving  up on anything.

Zoro seemed angry to you? To me, he seemed very supportive of Usopp's new "god" status. He wants to be taken seriously along with Luffy (just like Sanji), not to outshine him. He just told Pica, after all, that he was no match for Luffy.



Blake said:


> Bounties are unrelated to strength, so they hardly get any value. We see people like Bellamy with 195 Millions bounty but we all know they are far below M3 level. Ranks like Admirals, Yonkous, Supernovas(especially from the worse generation) are the most valuable points in the new world, with Admirals and Yonkou standing at the summit and worse generation trying to break their gears



The lower ranks that have already been explored, including the shichibukai and vice admirals, have already shown a great disparity in power between their weakest and strongest. I suspect that admirals and yonkous won't be too different. Oda always uses repetitive character structures.  So no, I don't think Supernova status indicates a particular power level. The supernovas, an even more randomly picked bunch than the admirals or Yonkou or shichibukai as they didn't get offered the title but it was simply given to them, shouldn't be any more close in power.

I won't be able to prove that (nor will you be able to prove the opposite until someone like Bonney or Capone goes all out), so there isn't much point continuing on the subject. 



Blake said:


> Fair point concerning the supernovas ambitions but concerning Law he seemed to target one piece pre-timeskip when he told to his crew that one piece wouldn't vanish if they wait before going to the NW, so it's likely defeating Doflamingo was only one of his main objectives



Agreed.



Blake said:


> Concerning the difference in opponents and compliments you missed the point. The compliments are situational. I don't take all of them as the same value. The compliment the marines gave to Sanji was to show Sanji is a strong individual, but it alone can't determine exactly how strong. You're only strong in function of someone just like Lucci saying Franky is strong didn't make him M3 or close to his level. The Tashigi comment however is noteworthy because she questioned how someone can be so strong(in generality) when knowing someone like Smoker, so it implied the level in which Zoro was operating was above the likes of Smoker.



Tashigi's comment was quite likely said out of respect for him _as a swordsman_. *Tashigi was at Marineford, so she's seen people far stronger than Zoro at work.* But she's probably never seen a pure swordsman (not a logia like Smoker) with that level of skill. With her being a much weaker swordsman, her respect was of course immense.




Blake said:


> As for the skirmiches itself, like i've said, Sanji never fought stronger people, he only skirmiched with them. It's like saying Franky is M3 level because he skirmiched with Rob Lucci and he complimented him on his superhuman strength when he was infact far above his level(arguably above even that of his captain). It's basically the same with Doflamingo complimenting Sanji or Fujitora complimenting Zoro. All of them were short skirmiches that aren't always enough to identify a character strength depending on the outcome.



This is true. I wasn't saying otherwise.
But to be clear Sanji v Vergo was a different situation entirely.



Blake said:


> Sanji never participated in main fights and won. His sole fight that he won was in FI, a fight he shared with Jinbe. Besides, the skirmich against Vergo was a leg vs leg confrontation(so Sanji's fort) with a Vergo not using his armament and lacking his famous bamboo attached to his nickname, so clearly not going all out, yet Sanji seemed to think he would have lost if the fight continued. The first time Vergo made contact with his leg, he slightly broke the strongest part of his body, and again in a short skirmich.



How did you determine that Vergo wasn't using armaments? Based on Sanji's comments, it seemed very clear that he was. The entire reason he was able to damage Sanji's leg was because of its potency. While Vergo hadn't yet used full body hardening, a featless form that likely has drawbacks, Sanji was also holding back everything except for his basic moveset. You didn't mention the portion of the fight where Vergo bled from the nose due to a DJ to the head and Sanji planted his head in the wall with one of his projectile attacks. Also, Sanji never said he would have lost. One of the marines asked him if he was hurt, and he said "if I kept fighting like this..." "This" is referring to the leg fracture. Clearly, fighting with his leg fractured would certainly worsen its condition.

However, it's quite possible, if not probable, that Vergo is stronger than Sanji, but again I have no trouble reconciling that fact with Sanji being very close in power to Zoro. Because I believe Zoro v Vergo would be an extreme diff fight for Zoro and would go Vergo's way some of the time.




Blake said:


> Zoro on the other side fought another elite officer and despite fighting him longer(fight seperated in 2 situations) and being in a territorial advantage(controlling entire castel and landscape, he couldn't even inflect damage on a Zoro lacking knowledge on his abilities, wasting his energy uselessly and the moment he found the way, he got the upper hand and implied to be on another level than him. Regardless of how you rate Vergo and Pica featwise, the manga puts elite officers at around the same level.



"Around the same level" is enough leeway for me to believe that Vergo is a significantly tougher fighter than Pica considering Pica's usefulness as a defensive tool. Pica, as far as we know, has yet to actually get hurt (just like the other way around, Zoro also couldn't even inflict damage on Pica) That's the danger in fighting Pica, he's broken as hell. Along with decent stats that brokenness puts him on a similar level to Vergo, but it doesn't indicate that his Haki, stamina, durability, or speed are even close to Vergo.





Blake said:


> Oda didn't make a clear cut concerning their level similarly to Arlong commanders who until now we still can't tell for sure who was stronger than the other. When Oda makes no distinction i suppose he want us to believe they are roughly all on the same level. And infact, if we go suggestion-wise, Pica seems to be stronger considering he is the officer Viola fears the most, he is apparently kept in cage by Doflamingo(he asked Doflamingo to allow him to go all-out which implies Doflamingo rarely allows him to do that), and Fujitora said he was "dangerous". I think you're overestimating Vergo because of his haki. Pica likely has haki as well and even if he didn't, he displayed a great mastery over his DF. The portrayal isn't the same



Vergo wasn't available to feared. And Pica is indeed the most deserving of fear regardless since he controls the entire island (which is of course also why he never goes all out and why he's considered dangerous, you can't just destroy the island every day). Running into him did indeed mean a foil to their plans. But that doesn't suggest that Pica is the strongest. I'm not underestimating Pica's devil fruit powers. They are quite powerful. But as we see with Zoro, they simply aren't good enough to take down someone as who is agile (and Sanji is more agile than Zoro) and physically resilient. Pica simply having Haki doesn't really shape up to Vergo having demonstrated a higher mastery over CoA than anyone else since the skip including Luffy. Sanji and Smoker both stated that hitting his body was like hitting a dense metal. And that's without even using his full hardening. 

Considering it appears that the top officers will be fighting a pretty big variety of opponents power-wise (Cavendish, Kyros, Zoro, and Law) and they serve very different purposes,  I think it's fair to say that they can a have a wide range of power. Vergo has fought evenly with Sanji in a brief fight and he defeated Smoker, who has portrayal similar to Luffy. Pica, in comparison, has only managed to kill some of Zoro's boredom. You can't use Pica to prove Zoro's strength because, outside of extraordinary devil fruit ability, Pica's strength is so unproven.



And I'll say it again, the way in which Doflamingo took down Luffy and Law seemed to be a pretty clear demonstration to me that he can treat people like Luffy and Law similarly to how he treated Sanji and Smoker (I believe the first group is a little stronger, and the fact that they could only do a little better is consistent with that). Luffy will somehow turn the tides, but let's be honest: he probably won't be stronger than Doflamingo until _after_ the fight.


----------



## trance (Jul 28, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Don't call it ZoroXSanji guys. We enter dangerous territory here.
> 
> OT: Zoro has a range advantage which forces Sanji to go into a close range fight which he will lose eventually high diff.



B-but Stairs is there. It stomped Kuina, so Zoro stands no chance. 

OT: Zoro wins with high difficulty. He will definitely have to try and it will take effort to put Sanji down but he's simply the superior fighter.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Jul 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> B-but Stairs is there. It stomped Kuina, so Zoro stands no chance.
> 
> OT: Zoro wins with high difficulty. He will definitely have to try and it will take effort to put Sanji down but he's simply the superior fighter.



Zoro surpassed stairs during his time skip training. Mihawk made him climbing stairs everyday in his castle.


----------



## Firo (Jul 28, 2014)

>Implying he wouldnt get lost


----------



## Amol (Jul 28, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Zoro surpassed stairs during his time skip training. Mihawk made him climbing stairs everyday in his castle.



But Mihawk still didn't managed to improve his sense of direction. He got lost so many times since time skip.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Jul 28, 2014)

Amol said:


> But Mihawk still didn't managed to improve his sense of direction. He got lost so many times since time skip.



Even Mihawk has limits as to what he can do.


----------



## trance (Jul 28, 2014)

Amol said:


> But Mihawk still didn't managed to improve his sense of direction. He got lost so many times since time skip.



Mihawk found the way back to his castle just fine.


----------



## Fenrir (Jul 28, 2014)

Welp, to those who are using Vergo cracking Sanji's leg as an argument, remember that Sanji's body wasn't exactly in the best shape, considering it was wrecked by Caesar while Nami was still in his body. It might have been for comedy but a point was made that Sanji's body was fragile enough for him to feel a punch from her after they swapped back and Usopp explaining why. So despite the fact that Sanji was practically handicapped he was still able to put up a fight against Doflamingo's first mate.

Both Luffy and Sanji were disadvantaged against Doffy from the start since they had no knowledge of his DF ability. Sanji was hurt but pretty dandy after taking a direct slash from his strings which can cut up meteors....but Smoker took the same kind of blow in PH and yet he was practically dying.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> Welp, to those who are using Vergo cracking Sanji's leg as an argument, remember that Sanji's body wasn't exactly in the best shape, considering it was wrecked by Caesar while Nami was still in his body. It might have been for comedy but a point was made that Sanji's body was fragile enough for him to feel a punch from her after they swapped back and Usopp explaining why. So despite the fact that Sanji was practically handicapped he was still able to put up a fight against Doflamingo's first mate.
> 
> Both Luffy and Sanji were disadvantaged against Doffy from the start since they had no knowledge of his DF ability. Sanji was hurt but pretty dandy after taking a direct slash from his strings which can cut up meteors....but Smoker took the same kind of blow in PH and yet he was practically dying.



look who talks so Sanji was beat up after CC as excuse and Smoker just fought Law, Vergo and then even DD he was not beat up? i think iam gunna neg that shitty fanboyism


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> I don't know how am goin to get manga evidence that if someone can swim better they should be faster in water is that not common sense?




common sense, real world rules/logic in a manga... cmon stop this shit, its just waste of time u got no facts that proof ur subjective claim.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> common sense, real world rules/logic in a manga... cmon stop this shit, its just waste of time u got no facts that proof ur subjective claim.



how is begin better at swiming a subjetive claim? that does not even make sense I don't even like Sanji but that does not mean i don't recognize that thats one area where he is better than Zoro, which is Speed?


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 28, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> Welp, to those who are using Vergo cracking Sanji's leg as an argument, remember that Sanji's body wasn't exactly in the best shape, considering it was wrecked by Caesar while Nami was still in his body. It might have been for comedy but a point was made that Sanji's body was fragile enough for him to feel a punch from her after they swapped back and Usopp explaining why. So despite the fact that Sanji was practically handicapped he was still able to put up a fight against Doflamingo's first mate.
> 
> Both Luffy and Sanji were disadvantaged against Doffy from the start since they had no knowledge of his DF ability. Sanji was hurt but pretty dandy after taking a direct slash from his strings which can cut up meteors....but Smoker took the same kind of blow in PH and yet he was practically dying.



I've always thought the Fight with Vergo and Sanji was quite even but i guess when you get your leg cracked that means automatic owning in peoples mind


----------



## Fenrir (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> look who talks so Sanji was beat up after CC as excuse and Smoker just fought Law, Vergo and then even DD he was not beat up? i think iam gunna neg that shitty fanboyism



Are you retarded? Fuck the fact that you've practically insulted everyone who tried to give an argument, I think it's a genuine case of a mental impediment on your part. Learn to argue, fucking dumbass, and give reasons instead of pulling insults out your ass like some sociopathic eight year old. Unless you're as incapable of formulating counters as you are of typing coherent sentences?

We haven't seen Sanji's full capabilities yet. I'm not saying he could beat Doffy. Fuck, even Vergo is a question mark, being easily the most efficient CoA user we've seen so far. What cannot be denied is that especially vs. Vergo, he wasn't anywhere near a full tank of gas, nor did he use anything past his basic pre-timeskip abilities. It was made fucking clear that he was a lot more fragile after Nami had his body due to Caesar's nonsense - of course he wasn't fighting Vergo at full. Smoker getting torn up by Doffy has nothing to do with his fight with Vergo - considering that beforehand Doffy was cutting in half rock and ice constructs causually with his strings Smoker's damage at that point was inconsequential. When it comes down to it, Sanji took a direct hit just like Smoker did, and unlike the latter he was easily able to maintain consciousness.

Piss off with that 'hurr dur fanboy' shit and learn how to speak.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> how is begin better at swiming a subjetive claim? that does not even make sense I don't even like Sanji but that does not mean i don't recognize that thats one area where he is better than Zoro, which is Speed?



well its a subjective claim that hes faster underwater just because he swims better, Sanji has been hyped to be as fast as a fishman underwater, while Zoro was hyped to be faster as a fighman underwater. If u deny manga facts and seek for excuses, sure go ahead, i have nothing to discuss with some1 like u.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> Are you retarded? Fuck the fact that you've practically insulted everyone who tried to give an argument, I think it's a genuine case of a mental impediment on your part. Learn to argue, fucking dumbass, and give reasons instead of pulling insults out your ass like some sociopathic eight year old. Unless you're as incapable of formulating counters as you are of typing coherent sentences?
> 
> We haven't seen Sanji's full capabilities yet. I'm not saying he could beat Doffy. Fuck, even Vergo is a question mark, being easily the most efficient CoA user we've seen so far. What cannot be denied is that especially vs. Vergo, he wasn't anywhere near a full tank of gas, nor did he use anything past his basic pre-timeskip abilities. It was made fucking clear that he was a lot more fragile after Nami had his body due to Caesar's nonsense - of course he wasn't fighting Vergo at full. Smoker getting torn up by Doffy has nothing to do with his fight with Vergo - considering that beforehand Doffy was cutting in half rock and ice constructs causually with his strings Smoker's damage at that point was inconsequential. When it comes down to it, Sanji took a direct hit just like Smoker did, and unlike the latter he was easily able to maintain consciousness.
> 
> Piss off with that 'hurr dur fanboy' shit and learn how to speak.



looks like some1 got no selfcontrol, posting tons of "fucking", "fuck" words nonstop, starting to insult and calling me a "8 year old sociopathic kid"... hmm i think that title fits u better.

ofc the beatup argument cannot be made for smoker after his fight with vergo because the fanboy doesnt want it to.


----------



## Fenrir (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> looks like some1 got no selfcontrol, posting tons of "fucking", "fuck" words nonstop, starting to insult and calling me a "8 year old sociopathic kid"... hmm i think that title fits u better.


It's not called 'no self control', it's simply that this is the only language that plebs such as yourselves understand. Because, as you have proven, you can't communicate or understand logic for shit. English, friend; do you speak it?



> ofc the beatup argument cannot be made for smoker after his fight with vergo because the fanboy doesnt want it to.


Dem fanboy insults, because you know my character preferences don't you. Although I'll give you the Smoker vs Doffy scenario. He was still fatiged.

Oh yeah, care to give an argument that wasn't typed in French and pasted on Google Translate? Because right now I think I'm expecting too much from you to expect a semi-logical response.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> well its a subjective claim that hes faster underwater just because he swims better, Sanji has been hyped to be as fast as a fishman underwater, while Zoro was hyped to be faster as a fighman underwater. If u deny manga facts and seek for excuses, sure go ahead, i have nothing to discuss with some1 like u.



I don't get you  I 1st said Sanji himself stated that he was the best cut out for the job which is from the manga and you responded with your own opinion of that because Zoro did'nt give a darn yet that is not a fact in the manga but am the one whos making excuses?


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> I don't get you  I 1st said Sanji himself stated that he was the best cut out for the job which is from the manga and you responded with your own opinion of that because Zoro did'nt give a darn yet that is not a fact in the manga but am the one whos making excuses?



he said hes the best at swimming, not that hes faster especially in namis body 

and the fact that Zoro is faster as Sanji underwater has been proved 1 arc before PH, thats why Zoro still dont give a shit


----------



## Fenrir (Jul 28, 2014)

Welp, as for this, I think Zoro > Sanji, but not by much of a distinguishable difference.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> he said hes the best at swimming, not that hes faster especially in namis body
> 
> and the fact that Zoro is faster as Sanji underwater has been proved 1 arc before PH, thats why Zoro still dont give a shit



Wah and you said i was subjective.... well it don't matter i could disprove that but lets leave it there


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Wah and you said i was subjective.... well it don't matter i could disprove that but lets leave it there



sure go ahead i have nothing to worry about since manga facts state zoro is faster as sanji underwater, i dont even know what there is to discuss about, a huge shitstorm over a couple of pages just because some people cant accept it.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> sure go ahead i have nothing to worry about since manga facts state zoro is faster as sanji underwater, i dont even know what there is to discuss about, a huge shitstorm over a couple of pages just because some people cant accept it.



Ohk who stated that Sanji was as fast as a fishmen Ussop right when has Ussop ever seen how fast a fishmen can Move in water? if that was the case then we can also say Jozu>Mihawk becuase a marine solider said that that was the strongest slash in the world as its manga fact


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Ohk who stated that Sanji was as fast as a fishmen Ussop right when has Ussop ever seen how fast a fishmen can Move in water? if that was the case then we can also say Jozu>Mihawk becuase a marine solider said that that was the strongest slash in the world as its manga fact



Then Jozu is > Mihawk till he shows something better in his last fight against Zoro, not that i care lol.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> Then Jozu is > Mihawk till he shows something better in his last fight against Zoro, not that i care lol.



lol nice one


----------



## Ajin (Jul 28, 2014)

-Snip- You constantly repeat that Zoro is faster than Sanji because Usopp and some fodder's words. Couple things:

- Usopp never seen any fishman in water before FI arc, he simply didn't know nothing about fishman real speed. How he can be influential in this case? Usopp simply compared Sanji to fishmen, because he was thinking about them as the fastest swimmers. 

- Zoro wanted to be first to take out kraken  . Yet, Sanji was the one who attacked as first. Oda spotlight his speed even thought Zoro was next to him. 

-Usopp and Brook seen Sanji and Zoro in fight and commented only Sanji's speed. Although Usopp didn't know fishmen's speed, he could compare Sanji to Zoro, It wouldn't make sense if Zoro was faster and Usopp praised only Sanji. 

- Water pressure makes the difference. Robin say that water pressure can kill the man,  it means that in One Piece there are some laws of physics and swimming thousands of meter below sea level is certainly more difficult.

- During the rescue Kinemon's body time was important because the lake was full of poison. It does not matter who was the better swimmer, the only thing that mattered was who is the fastest in water. And Sanji was the one who went after Kinemon's body.

Sanji's training was focused on speed and he is faster than Zoro, just accept it instead of saying bullshit.


----------



## Impact (Jul 28, 2014)

So many Tl;dr posts


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

Ajin said:


> TheWiggian, are you retarded? You constantly repeat that Zoro is faster than Sanji because Usopp and some fodder's words. Couple things:
> 
> - Usopp never seen any fishman in water before FI arc, he simply didn't know nothing about fishman real speed. How he can be influential in this case? Usopp simply compared Sanji to fishmen, because he was thinking about them as the fastest swimmers.



sure, still the fishmen pirates (that know the speed of fishman) commented that Zoro is faster as a fishman underwater.



Ajin said:


> - Zoro wanted to be first to take out kraken  . Yet, Sanji was the one who attacked as first. Oda spotlight his speed even thought Zoro was next to him.



Oda just spotlight 1 monster trio member after the other, it got nothing to do with speed. After that Zoro appeared and then Luffy made his move, simple as that. But if it is what u think/your opinion iam fine with it and wont argue.



Ajin said:


> -Usopp and Brook seen Sanji and Zoro in fight and commented only Sanji's speed. Although Usopp didn't know fishmen's speed, he could compare Sanji to Zoro, It wouldn't make sense if Zoro was faster and Usopp praised only Sanji.



well to be precise Usopp commented on Zoros attack and that he didnt even see the movement Zoro did.



Ajin said:


> - Water pressure makes the difference. Robin say that water pressure can kill the man,  it means that in One Piece there are some laws of physics and swimming thousands of meter below sea level is certain more difficult.



well when Hody flooded the palace with sea water even Usopp survived the pressure of the sea at that depth and was able to move, nothing special for a M3 member then.




Ajin said:


> - During the rescue Kinemon's body time was important because the lake was full of poison. It does not matter who was the better swimmer, the only thing that mattered was who is the fastest in water. And Sanji was the one who went after Kinemon's body.



thought this might be true it was never stated and like i told a few times already, Zoro didnt care about Kinemon until he seen his Samurai fighting style and since Sanji promised to help Kinemon he was the one who dived.



Ajin said:


> Sanji's training was focused on speed and he is faster than Zoro, just accept it instead of saying bullshit.



thats new to me, is there any proof? as far as i know his training was focused on getting 99 recipes from the masters and learn the newkama kenpou. stealing and running sure increased his physical stats but Luffy and Zoro increased their stats too, it doesnt mean they focused on speed just their overall stats also everyone of them learned Haki.


----------



## Dunno (Jul 28, 2014)

Usopp isn't really the most reliable source... Actually, he's pretty much the exact opposite.


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 28, 2014)

tanman said:


> I can accept that that's how you interpreted it. However, I don't see that implication at all. Sometimes humble dreams lead to great power, Whitebeard's dream is the most obvious example (and finding the All Blue, which is likely connected to One Piece, actually isn't that humble at all). The creation of the supernovas wasn't about separating Zoro from the rest, but highlighting those at the top.


Well i could have agreed with you if we were still pre-timeskip, but you can't deny that since the timeskip started it's all about the worse generation. Before i didn't even imagine they could play such an important role and that they would rapidely disappear in the story, but Brownbeard said they all caused chaos in the NW, with the main ones(Law, Kidd, Hawkins, Drake and Apoo) creating the most, now we have Law picking up an alliance with the strawhats to take down a yonkou which is a long time project(so will get plenty of screentime), Kidd making another alliance with Hawkins and Apoo to take another(off-panel development), Law defeating 2 VAs in PH and sending a message that they(worse generation) will break previous generations gears when he defeated Vergo. His statement was a way to say Vergo wasn't on his level and now Zoro is implying the same thing with Pica. It looks like the elite officers are nothing more than hype tools to the worse generation. Clearly the worse generation development seems different to me




> I don't understand what you're saying here. They both wanted to sacrifice themselves, but Zoro wanted it to be him rather than Sanji.


Zoro wanted to sacrifice himself for his captain(to achieve a greater dream). Sanji stopped him by saying "what about your ambition". He clearly wanted to exchange with Zoro because he judged Zoro's dream greater than his own. Zoro interfered only because he thought it was his duty and his alone like a real vice-captain would do



> Yes, people have thought of him as that because he's the second strongest. That's unsurprising and doesn't indicate a widening gap. Several crews and teams have first mates very close in power to their third strongest: Kaku/Jyabura, Marco/Jozu, Ohm/Shura, and many more.


I don't think Jozu is that close to Marco judging by his gorosei hype, but i get what you mean. Either way it was just a supplemental argument to support my point. It wasn't a main one




> I don't understand what you're saying in bold. I don't recall Sanji giving  up on anything.


I don't remember exactly which chapter and the curse of events, but what i remember is that he gave up his dream to find All-Blue to see the mermaids against his crewmates's wish, saying that he doesn't care about it at all as long as he see them. As for the Vergo thing, it was a mistake on my part though. He didn't give up there



> Zoro seemed angry to you? To me, he seemed very supportive of Usopp's new "god" status. He wants to be taken seriously along with Luffy (just like Sanji), not to outshine him. He just told Pica, after all, that he was no match for Luffy.


Well he said that in the strawhat there isn't only GodUsopp and Luffy, that there is him as well, plus the fact Pica was more interested in fighting Luffy few chapters back than fighting him, so i thought his claim around being there was a sign implying he was rather angry not to be taken seriously either by Pica or Doflamingo who gave them more stars than him and thus considering them a greater a threat



> The lower ranks that have already been explored, including the shichibukai and vice admirals, have already shown a great disparity in power between their weakest and strongest. I suspect that admirals and yonkous won't be too different. Oda always uses repetitive character structures.  So no, I don't think Supernova status indicates a particular power level. The supernovas, an even more randomly picked bunch than the admirals or Yonkou or shichibukai as they didn't get offered the title but it was simply given to them, shouldn't be any more close in power.



I won't be able to prove that (nor will you be able to prove the opposite until someone like Bonney or Capone goes all out), so there isn't much point continuing on the subject.[/QUOTE]Fair point concerning the Shichibukai and vice-admirals, and you may be right but i highly doubt there is such a disparity with admirals and yonkous. The color trio was portrayed similarly in the war. Later on, we see a Akainu/Kuzan battle was extremely close. Yonkous are defined to defy each other in territory battles, so i don't think a fight between them will end up with anything less than high difficulty and if it's the case, i won't call in any kind of disparity. Either way i concede that it's possible it is the case with supernovas considering they don't share the same hype(we have a top5 at the moment)



> Tashigi's comment was quite likely said out of respect for him _as a swordsman_. *Tashigi was at Marineford, so she's seen people far stronger than Zoro at work.* But she's probably never seen a pure swordsman (not a logia like Smoker) with that level of skill. With her being a much weaker swordsman, her respect was of course immense.


Fair enough 



> How did you determine that Vergo wasn't using armaments? Based on Sanji's comments, it seemed very clear that he was. The entire reason he was able to damage Sanji's leg was because of its potency. While Vergo hadn't yet used full body hardening, a featless form that likely has drawbacks, Sanji was also holding back everything except for his basic moveset. You didn't mention the portion of the fight where Vergo bled from the nose due to a DJ to the head and Sanji planted his head in the wall with one of his projectile attacks. Also, Sanji never said he would have lost. One of the marines asked him if he was hurt, and he said "if I kept fighting like this..." "This" is referring to the leg fracture. Clearly, fighting with his leg fractured would certainly worsen its condition.


Well i always thought he was using tekkai. He showed soru, geppou, shigan, so it's likely he is a tekkai user as well, but i guess haki is also a possibility. And yes, Sanji did pretty well, but the conclusion is the most vital point to me. Sanji clearly implied he would have lost if the fight lasted longer



> However, it's quite possible, if not probable, that Vergo is stronger than Sanji, but again I have no trouble reconciling that fact with Sanji being very close in power to Zoro. Because I believe Zoro v Vergo would be an extreme diff fight for Zoro and would go Vergo's way some of the time.


To me Law's message after defeating Vergo wasn't just concerning himself, but the worse generation. And if Zoro indeed defeats Pica without much difficulty, it would go along with Law's statement. Law implied he was stronger than Vergo even before defeating him and now Zoro is saying the same to another elite officer, which leads me to believe that Oda probably wants us to see that the elite officers are nothing more than hype tools against people from the worse generation



> "Around the same level" is enough leeway for me to believe that Vergo is a significantly tougher fighter than Pica considering Pica's usefulness as a defensive tool. Pica, as far as we know, has yet to actually get hurt (just like the other way around, Zoro also couldn't even inflict damage on Pica) That's the danger in fighting Pica, he's broken as hell. Along with decent stats that brokenness puts him on a similar level to Vergo, but it doesn't indicate that his Haki, stamina, durability, or speed are even close to Vergo.


Well he apparently tanked a 1080 pound cannon that can slice a mountain size mass of underground rocks, so his durability should be up there. And while not as fast as Vergo, his range on an environment made of rocks makes him more difficult to fight imo control because he can create elevations of rocks at any point of the ground to stab you any moment like he intended to do to Zoro for example in this chapter. It's basically similar to Law's switching ability in his room imo, considering he can create lands of rocks from every part of the ground at any moment to attack and switch within them any instant, making him particularly difficult to hit directly unless you're faster than his instant switching, so basically the same way Law can do with 2 different objects in his room including himself


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 28, 2014)

> Vergo wasn't available to feared. And Pica is indeed the most deserving of fear regardless since he controls the entire island (which is of course also why he never goes all out and why he's considered dangerous, you can't just destroy the island every day). Running into him did indeed mean a foil to their plans. But that doesn't suggest that Pica is the strongest. I'm not underestimating Pica's devil fruit powers. They are quite powerful. But as we see with Zoro, they simply aren't good enough to take down someone as who is agile (and Sanji is more agile than Zoro) and physically resilient. Pica simply having Haki doesn't really shape up to Vergo having demonstrated a higher mastery over CoA than anyone else since the skip including Luffy. Sanji and Smoker both stated that hitting his body was like hitting a dense metal. And that's without even using his full hardening.


Well the thing is Viola likely knows they defeated Vergo, yet she thought they were done for the moment Pica appeared, which somehow imply a sort of superiority here. Besides, pay attention that Corazon(Doflamingo's own brother) was occupying the heart seat 13 years ago alongside Pica, Trebol and Diamante, yet Vergo didn't and was instead sent under cover in the marines where we see he was seemingly a captain 3 years later, which could imply Vergo simply went through ranks with time. Besides, i won't say that Sanji is more agile than Zoro. To me, Sanji has better mobility with sky walk and blue walk allowing him to travel in many environment faster, but Zoro has better reflexive. He could dodge Kuma's light speed attacks even pre-timeskip, could cut Surume's limb in 6 parties in the blink of an eye(something impressive considering the size of the limb), could strike down an under water fishman on base Hody standard faster than he could react, but i get what you mean 



> Considering it appears that the top officers will be fighting a pretty big variety of opponents power-wise (Cavendish, Kyros, Zoro, and Law) and they serve very different purposes,  I think it's fair to say that they can a have a wide range of power. Vergo has fought evenly with Sanji in a brief fight and he defeated Smoker, who has portrayal similar to Luffy. Pica, in comparison, has only managed to kill some of Zoro's boredom. You can't use Pica to prove Zoro's strength because, outside of extraordinary devil fruit ability, Pica's strength is so unproven.


Well i believe that at the current moment, Smoker is weaker than Luffy and by a good margin. Because he is considered to be Luffy's Garp doesn't mean he will always be his equal. He can still improve with time to catch up, but so far it simply doesn't cut it. I also think we didn't see the full extent of Pica's power yet(or i'd say i hope), because considering his hype, it could be a real let down if it wasn't the case



> And I'll say it again, the way in which Doflamingo took down Luffy and Law seemed to be a pretty clear demonstration to me that he can treat people like Luffy and Law similarly to how he treated Sanji and Smoker (I believe the first group is a little stronger, and the fact that they could only do a little better is consistent with that). Luffy will somehow turn the tides, but let's be honest: he probably won't be stronger than Doflamingo until _after_ the fight.


Well against Law it was hardly a fair fight considering how tired. And Luffy had a great burden with Kyros in the skirmich and eventhen, he showed great speed and reactions and was only slightly damaged, not enough to bring a good conclusion to me


----------



## Fenrir (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> well to be precise Usopp commented on Zoros attack and that he didnt even see the movement Zoro did.




[YOUTUBE]NRhBqUiDOfk[/YOUTUBE]

Usopp only comments on his speed in the anime - between 2:00 and 2 : 33, a ton of shit is only anime-exclusive footage. In the manga, he does the move and it skips right to Luffy telling him and Sanji off. No talk of speed.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> [YOUTUBE]NRhBqUiDOfk[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Usopp only comments on his speed in the anime - between 2:00 and 2 : 33, a ton of shit is only anime-exclusive footage. In the manga, he does the move and it skips right to Luffy telling him and Sanji off. No talk of speed.



agree my mistake ^^


----------



## Typhon (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm not going to dive into the "Sanji not being a supernova", but I find it weird that people don't get why that is. 

I mean seriously. Sanji's _wanted poster_ doesn't even have his real picture on it. Sanji is meant to be an anomaly. That's been his thing since early on in the story, posing as others and appearing out of nowhere to help the SHs. If he was a supernova, all that would be shot.


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 28, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> well when Hody flooded the palace with sea water even Usopp survived the pressure of the sea at that depth and was able to move, nothing special for a M3 member then.
> 
> .



_I've read through your posts in this thread, and while most reiterate notions that i've already disproved this one might confuse someone who's not properly informed on the matter._


_*
 The Royal Palace area is coated*. It's the smaller of the two bubbles that you can see on the page i linked. So obviously there's some water pressure involved when the Palace was flooded, but it's insignificant and can't be compared with Sanji's case. 

If you need further evidence that inside the coated area the outrageous water pressure from outside is negated i will make it easy for you. _


*Spoiler*: __ 









> ...If that bubble breaks...then before even Noah hit's the island...the whole residential area will be annihilated by the water pressure !!!



_This page alone should be enough to settle this issue. The water pressure is strong enough to destroy everything if the coating get's destroyed. The water pressure is proven without a doubt to be a force to be reckoned, and something that Zoro did not have to deal with, unlike Sanji._


----------



## 3B20 (Jul 28, 2014)

Typhon said:


> I'm not going to dive into the "Sanji not being a supernova", but I find it weird that people don't get why that is.
> 
> I mean seriously. Sanji's _wanted poster_ doesn't even have his real picture on it. Sanji is meant to be an anomaly. That's been his thing since early on in the story, posing as others and appearing out of nowhere to help the SHs. If he was a supernova, all that would be shot.





Agreed word by word


----------



## Fenrir (Jul 28, 2014)

Didn't Sanji get, like, one of the highest known initial bounties in the series? Outside Nico Robin's bounty (which is based off a lie) the only other two initial bounties that are higher than Sanji's are Hancock's 80 million and Fisher Tiger's 230 million.


----------



## tanman (Aug 12, 2014)

_@Blake, I'll respond to you specifically later.
_

*Key Points in Rebuttal of Luffy = Zoro and Zoro >> Sanji
*


- Lucci's massively superior Rokushiki, when compared to Kaku and Jyabura. While Kaku and Jyabura (with Jyabura being more experienced with his devil fruit) possessed almost equivalent Rokushiki and Sanji and Zoro had very similar difficulties against their opponents. 

- Luffy gaining a very large set of abilities in EL, while Zoro and Sanji only gained one each
- Whiskey Peak had no conclusion. Is it to believed that two characters as close in power as Zoro and Sanji couldn't fight evenly for a similar length of time over ultimately trivial reasons. If you believe that Zoro is well above Sanji, then I suppose you can feel free to ignore that example and use something like Kaku and Jyabura

- Zoro being capable of taking Luffy's pain does not demonstrate equality or superiority. Luffy was knocked out from exhaustion, not from pain. Pain is relative, and considering Luffy's blunt immunity, it quite likely was enough that had Zoro been in good health, he would survive it quite easily.

- Ignoring blunt immunity, of course, does anyone seriously believe that at Luffy's level of exhaustion, Zoro would have trouble in attempting to floor him to save his life? What has to be understood is that Zoro was in a better condition than Sanji, and that's why Sanji probably couldn't have taken it.

- People say that Zoro has gotten closer to Luffy since the skip, but I see no evidence of this. Zoro's feats, besides the scale he achieved against Pica, pale in comparison to Luffy and Law's thus far.

- People also argue that Zoro has pulled away from Sanji since the skip, but I again disagree with this. Zoro has fought opponents consistently weaker than those Sanji has fought (to a conclusion). Monet and Hyouzou simply can't be compared to the likes of Vergo and Doflamingo. Pica is comparable, however, Zoro has yet to actually defeat Pica and Pica has failed to demonstrate speed or stamina that would lead anyone to believe that he could pose a serious threat to the life of someone like Sanji. So I don't see why Pica can be used to demonstrate Zoro's supposed vast superiority. The fact of the matter is that Zoro and Sanji were once again paired off together at Fishman Island, then they were praised together on Punk Hazard, and now they've been given challenging opponents in Dressrosa/The Open Seas. They've been given the same relationship post-skip as they had pre-skip.

- Luffy has consistently been placed above the rest. Crocodile was without a doubt many levels above Daz Bones. Similarly Daz Bones was well above Bentham. This demonstrated a very symmetrical relationship between the members of the M3. Enel, while only defeated because of Luffy's rubber body, further portrayed Luffy beyond the likes of Zoro and Sanji. Zoro and Sanji were again seen fighting together at Fishman Island while Luffy was once again portrayed on a different level. Arlong may have feared Zoro's strength, but this is unsurprising considering Luffy ultimately defeated Arlong without the kind of trouble he had against later opponents like Croc or Lucci.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 12, 2014)

Tanman, were those points all supposed to be in favor of Zoro being closer to Sanji than to Luffy?
About half of them seemed to be intended to support the opposite conclusion, and the other half seemed rather weak or just outright false.


----------



## Suit (Aug 12, 2014)

tanman said:


> *Key Points in Rebuttal of Luffy = Zoro and Zoro >> Sanji
> *



The person saying that 





> Luffy = Zoro and Zoro >> Sanji


 doesn't deserve a rebuttal, they deserve to be shot.

Zoro extreme-diffs 10/10 because the dynamic of the crew has yet to prove itself significantly different that it was in the past.


----------



## Orca (Aug 12, 2014)

Zoro High diffs Sanji.

Zoro's sole purpose on the crew is fighting. Sanji can fight good and is also a cook. Sanji shouldn't be almost as good as Zoro in zoro's area of expertise. So extreme diff seems a bit unlikely.


----------



## Krippy (Aug 12, 2014)

Zolo extreme diff 7/10.

Zolo has power and skill but Sanji has speed and agility. He's a hair stronger atm.


----------



## Suit (Aug 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Zoro High diffs Sanji.
> 
> Zoro's sole purpose on the crew is fighting. Sanji can fight good and is also a cook. Sanji shouldn't be almost as good as Zoro in zoro's area of expertise. So extreme diff seems a bit unlikely.



Since their dynamic is kind of weird due to plot, I would call it low-extreme though I don't usually bracket extreme-diff. I still believe Zoro wins every time, but again, I go by plot setup.


----------



## Kaiser (Aug 12, 2014)

tanman said:


> _@Blake, I'll respond to you specifically later.
> _


Ok 



> - Lucci's massively superior Rokushiki, when compared to Kaku and Jyabura. While Kaku and Jyabura (with Jyabura being more experienced with his devil fruit) possessed almost equivalent Rokushiki and Sanji and Zoro had very similar difficulties against their opponents.


Sure they had difficulties but when Zoro/Sanji used their respective modes, they won and overall, they actually defeated their opponents much easier than Luffy. Infact Lucci had some opportunities to finish off Luffy during that fight

Besides, the doriki argument is inconsistent. We've seen that this same Luffy needed gear second to overcome a Blueno at 820 in terms of doriki when saying gear second double his speed/power and needed multiple hits and the bazooka to actually KO him and this same Blueno is close to 3 times weaker than Kaku/Jyabura that Zoro one shoted with Asura and Sanji with 2 diable jambe shots

And infact, Blueno could still stand to save Lucci, Jyabura was seen perfectly fine later as well when Kaku couldn't still stand on his own in cover pages(Jyabura transporting him)

This could be due to the fact it only measures physical strength and doesn't take into consideration special abilities. While it's true Lucci was setting himself apart from the rest in terms of physical strength, Kaku for example considered himself to be the strongest swordsman in the CP9(which is his speciality). It's like comparing for example Zoro with or without his swords. Kaku was also implied to be stronger than Jyabura when he felt threatened when Kaku was going crazy

I agree though that Luffy was stronger than them. Coruscation's post convinced me in the other topic


> - Luffy gaining a very large set of abilities in EL, while Zoro and Sanji only gained one each


Depends on what you mean by large set. What i know is that he gained 2 modes(gear second and gear third) when Zoro gained one(Asura) and Sanji one(Diable Jambe). The moves he was using in gear second only reflected the upgrade version of his normal mode just like Zoro showed different moves in Asura or Sanji in diable jambe mode

And like i've also said above, Zoro's asura ichibugin one shoted Kaku to the point he still couldn't start in the beginning of CP9 cover pages when Blueno was perfect fine later on despite having received multiple hits from Luffy in gear second and same concerning Jyabura(who received 2 Diable Jambe attacks)

Not to mention that considering Asura is a mode where we actually see a triple Zoro in action, it's possible it upgrades its attacks potential by 3 folds. Luffy on the otherside implied gear second upgrades his attacks by 2 folds and it's Luffy's best mode considering gear second at that point made him slower and even has inconvenient side effects that made him vulnerable even against the weakest opponents

The difference between Luffy/Zoro/Sanji however is that Luffy could consistently maintain gear second in fights(even if there were drawbacks) when Zoro and Sanji seemed to have limits with their respective modes



> - Whiskey Peak had no conclusion. Is it to believed that two characters as close in power as Zoro and Sanji couldn't fight evenly for a similar length of time over ultimately trivial reasons. If you believe that Zoro is well above Sanji, then I suppose you can feel free to ignore that example and use something like Kaku and Jyabura


Well the thing is the initial consisted in both using their strongest( or main) move at the start that ended in a equality. Speed and power was the same and they are both monsters in terms of strength/tanking ability/stamina(Zoro even demonstrated to be greater in Thriller Bark), so in a match where they are equals in everything at their strongest. Not to mention the hype around it as well to further explains that. Baroque works bounty hunters were actually claiming he deserves Luffy's bounty(30 millions at that time) and that he actually can be the captain. All that implies equality between both at least at that point. 


> - Zoro being capable of taking Luffy's pain does not demonstrate equality or superiority. Luffy was knocked out from exhaustion, not from pain. Pain is relative, and considering Luffy's blunt immunity, it quite likely was enough that had Zoro been in good health, he would survive it quite easily.


The blunt immunity argument doesn't make sense considering that when Kuma actually removed all the pain, Luffy later on was healthier than ever, jumping everywhere and happy about that while wondering why everyone else was tired, talking as if nothing happened to him before. The gear second was sapping his stamina too much at that point. He couldn't even stand in Enies Lobby by using gear second a final time and this time he was combining both gear second and gear 3 that exerted his body even more. That shows it's the accumulation of pain that resulted in Luffy's exhaustion. So no, Zoro did take all Luffy's pain and by that time demonstrating greater stamina than him 



> - People say that Zoro has gotten closer to Luffy since the skip, but I see no evidence of this. Zoro's feats, besides the scale he achieved against Pica, pale in comparison to Luffy and Law's thus far.


Please give Law and especially Luffy's feats that you deem superior to Zoro's



> - People also argue that Zoro has pulled away from Sanji since the skip, but I again disagree with this. Zoro has fought opponents consistently weaker than those Sanji has fought (to a conclusion). Monet and Hyouzou simply can't be compared to the likes of Vergo and Doflamingo.


I feel the need to point out the fact Sanji only skirmiched with them. He didn't have a full-ending arc battle like what usually happens with strawhats in every arcs against these respective opponents, but just earlier skirmich and in both skirmich he showed difficulties in one and had to be saved in the other. If you really count skirmiches as decent fights, i feel the need to mention that none of the opponents Sanji skirmiched against are on Fujitora's level. 

Luffy didn't even skirmiched(let alone fight) against Vergo/Doflamingo level opponent yet just like Zoro, but you seem to miss the portrayal point. They were paralleled against Hodi or Hyouzou, paralleled against the dragon, paralleled by Monet(in her statement) or paralleled against Pica

Sanji didn't even have a proper fight yet and the only one he got(in Fishmen island), he had to share it with Jinbe. Pay also a note that it was against a subordinate when Luffy and Zoro had 1vs1 fights against transformed opponents. The portrayal seemed to have put Luffy and Zoro above Sanji/Jinbe there in terms of crew/battle importance in that arc



> Pica is comparable, however, Zoro has yet to actually defeat Pica and Pica has failed to demonstrate speed or stamina that would lead anyone to believe that he could pose a serious threat to the life of someone like Sanji. So I don't see why Pica can be used to demonstrate Zoro's supposed vast superiority.


Portrayal again. The elite officers are portrayed to be close in power with possibly Pica above judging by the hype around him. In terms of feats, while it's true he seems to be lacking in certain departments, to me Pica isn't that far from Law in terms of hax. For the speed point, i'm not exactly sure if it's actually him who is slow or if it's just Zoro who is faster than him. After all we're talking about someone who moves faster than fishmen underwater. His DF seems to take a lot of his stamina when he uses it in larger scale, but it's just like Law. He has incredible scale comparable if not greater than Law. Has environment control comparable to Law's control in his room. Can switch with every rocks comparable to Law's switching ability in his room. The main advantage Law possess is his one shoting ability but on the otherside, Pica can regenerate from every hits as long as there is rocks nearby him 



> - Luffy has consistently been placed above the rest. Crocodile was without a doubt many levels above Daz Bones. Similarly Daz Bones was well above Bentham. This demonstrated a very symmetrical relationship between the members of the M3. Enel, while only defeated because of Luffy's rubber body, further portrayed Luffy beyond the likes of Zoro and Sanji. Zoro and Sanji were again seen fighting together at Fishman Island while Luffy was once again portrayed on a different level. Arlong may have feared Zoro's strength, but this is unsurprising considering Luffy ultimately defeated Arlong without the kind of trouble he had against later opponents like Croc or Lucci.


And Luffy lost 2 times to Crocodile and won later on due to a difference in knowledge. Give the same amount of knowledge to Zoro and i'm not exactly sure Crocodile would have won against him. Crocodile was having the advantage due to his logia abilities and hax. It's also doubtful Luffy at that time could defeat Daz due to match-ups. 

In skypiea i would also like to point out the fact that Luffy stalemated with Wiper, same Wiper who was paralleled with Zoro later on, who defeated the strongest priest(who was thinking he was the captain by the way). That suggest they were actually close even there. He couldn't defeat Enel unlike Luffy though just because of the immunity advantage like you said

And like you said, Arlong feared an injured/about to pass out any instant Zoro when Sanji was thinking Arlong was above his level


----------



## Orca (Aug 12, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> Since their dynamic is kind of weird due to plot, I would call it low-extreme though I don't usually bracket extreme-diff. I still believe Zoro wins every time, but again, I go by plot setup.



Can you elaborate on what you mean by plot setup here and how it suggests that Zoro vs Sanji is an extreme diff fight.


----------



## Suit (Aug 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Can you elaborate on what you mean by plot setup here and how it suggests that Zoro vs Sanji is an extreme diff fight.



They're always portrayed as being pretty close, but with Sanji always behind. That's just the dynamic though.


----------



## Orca (Aug 12, 2014)

The only time they had a close portrayal was during Ennies lobby via the dorikis of their opponents. Or atleast that's how I remember it.


----------



## batman22wins (Aug 12, 2014)

Can anyone here tell me what Sanji is better then Zoro at in terms of fighting. 
Let's see here
Power= Zoro... Zoro pushed Kuma back while tired has hell with a move not even his most powerful attack(Asura) Sanji fractured his leg on the same Kuma and was screaming like a little girl about his leg.
Range attacks=Zoro clearly wins needs no explanation
Durability/Endurance=Zoro needs no explanation
Will Power=Zoro... Sanji had to be taught this by watching Zoro/Luffy no comparison
Speed= Sanji by slight margin. Sanji has some great speed feats and so does Zoro. Zoro dodged lasers pre timeskip while heavily damaged

So can someone anyone explain to me how Sanji is close to Zoro when he only has a slight speed advantage.


----------



## batman22wins (Aug 12, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> They're always portrayed as being pretty close, but with Sanji always behind. That's just the dynamic though.



They are not portrayed to be pretty close.


----------



## Suit (Aug 12, 2014)

batman22wins said:


> They are not portrayed to be pretty close.



Not to biased eyes. EL. Remember it. And don't think Oda is going to change the relative powers that damn much, because he won't. Zoro, low extreme 10/10.


----------



## batman22wins (Aug 12, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> Not to biased eyes. EL. Remember it. And don't think Oda is going to change the relative powers that damn much, because he won't. Zoro, low extreme 10/10.



What does EL mean? Zoro/Luffy was equal up until EL. So ur saying Sanji would give luffy a extreme fight before EL? or Sanji magically jumped up to Zoro level? Zoro Opponents was stronger then Sanji. Sanji opponent was weaker then Zoro even through Soros opponents has yet to use eat his DF. Eating the DF made him stronger.


----------



## Suit (Aug 12, 2014)

batman22wins said:


> What does EL mean? Zoro/Luffy was equal up until EL. So ur saying Sanji would give luffy a extreme fight before EL? or Sanji magically jumped up to Zoro level? Zoro Opponents was stronger then Sanji. Sanji opponent was weaker then Zoro even through Soros opponents has yet to use eat his DF. Eating the DF made him stronger.



I'm sorry, but you make too many assumptions with your questions. One unbiased question at a time, please. Zoro and Sanji were very close to each other at that point and Luffy was ahead of them by more than what their own gap was.


----------



## batman22wins (Aug 12, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> I'm sorry, but you make too many assumptions with your questions. One unbiased question at a time, please. Zoro and Sanji were very close to each other at that point and Luffy was ahead of them by more than what their own gap was.



What assumptions? Zoro and Luffy fought each other and were equal. Ida in two databooks wrote they were equal. I'm not assuming anything. You disprove the facts that I payed out. These are Facts. I don't deal with BS like Sanjitards. I talk Facts. Also can you give me a breakdown of what you feel Sanji is better then Zoro at? I want to see why you think this will be a extreme diff fight.


----------



## Raiden34 (Aug 13, 2014)

Sanji is faster, and has better kenbunshoku haki.

Zoro is durable, and has better busoshoku haki.

Haki parts has been confirmed by E.Oda in SBS,


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 13, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> Sanji is faster, and has better kenbunshoku haki.
> 
> Zoro is durable, and has better busoshoku haki.
> 
> Haki parts has been confirmed by E.Oda in SBS




The SBS never said that. It said that Luffy is best at CoC - that is, CoC is his specialty - Zoro specializes in CoA, and Sanji specializes in CoO. But that doesn't preclude Luffy from being better than Zoro at CoA or Zoro from being better at CoO than Sanji. It could be similar to how Vergo specializes in CoA but is probably not as good at CoA as Fujitora, even though Fujitora specalizes in CoO.


----------



## Raiden34 (Aug 13, 2014)

I agree about that, Luffy probably better at busoshoku and kenbunshoku haki than both.

However since Zoro & Sanji are really close in terms of power, it is safe to assume that Sanji's kenbunshoku is better while Zoro's busoshoku's better.


----------

