# 2 Sharingan PS Kakashi Vs Present Sasuke



## Invictus-Kun (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm talking about the Kakashi who had Obito inside him that showed us a PS that help stomp Kaguya.  The Sauce Im talking about is the Sauce we just saw in 694 and 695 with his PS.

Location: VoTE
Distance: Same distance of Naruto vs Sauce
Restrictions: Sauce can't use or acess Bijuu chakra, Kakashi had no difficulty in chakra supply. They both start in Base.

Mindset: Bloodlust, ready to eat and kill the enemy alive.

Discuss, Defend and Decide.


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## Ghost (Oct 24, 2014)

Sasuke teleports and lops off Kakashi's head.


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## Kyu (Oct 24, 2014)

Sauce murders.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

DMS Kakashi is pretty dope man

He has a PS with phasing abilites and tosses Kamui shirukens....

I would out DMS Kakashi slightly above the Sasuke we saw fight Kaguya because of too much HAXX


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## Kai (Oct 24, 2014)

Sasuke is fueled with half of Rikudo's chakra in contrast to Kakashi's remnants of Rikudo's chakra, so Sasuke's Susano'o should be more powerful. The Kamui shuriken are dangerous, but Sasuke saw what they can do; It's not beyond his ability to avoid projectiles on that level. As we saw against Kaguya's ash bones, Kakashi could only phase himself and not the rest of Susano'o, following its destruction. Sasuke will win the clash of Susanoo's.

If the fight is scaled down, I still see Sasuke outmaneuvering Kamui with his space-time ninjutsu and landing a fatal shot on Kakashi.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 24, 2014)

DMS Kakashi had Kamui, and he also had Rokudo chakra, I think Kakashi said it himself.

Sauce blitzes against the speed of Dual Kamui, there is a danger to sauce Losing his head with Kamui on the process.


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## SSMG (Oct 24, 2014)

Kakashi should win. He can stay phased while attacking sasuke so i dont see how sasuke hits him tbh.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 24, 2014)

Yeah... I don't see how anyone thinks Sasuke is winning this easily. He literally cannot touch Kakashi. He hasn't shown anything that's capable of countering Kamui phasing and if I recall correctly, his instant substitution technique has a cooldown on it which means Kamui GG more often than not. Sasuke obviously has the better techniques in terms of splash damage and raw power but none of that does him any good if he can't even hit Kakashi with any of it.

Kakashi can phase for at least 10 minutes... probably a lot longer considering that was Obito's time limit with only one eye. Either way, that's more than enough time for Kakashi to formulate a plan to take out Sasuke. Being able to teleport, phase, and snipe with Kamui is just too much hax. With Kakashi's intelligence it's just overkill.


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## Mercurial (Oct 24, 2014)

Kakashi still solos. Kamui GG is uncounterable once started and it's faster than Kaguya's S/T portal that already blitzed Sasuke: the same portal couldn't even end before Kamui's space/time barrier warped itself and the bone projectile it was teleporting. Kamui Raikiri with speed and hax that blitzed Kaguya, while a weaker Kaguya could dodge Sasuke's Rinnegan S/T + Chidori and do that with ease. All of Sasuke's destructive power is useless with Kamui teleporting and phasing. Kakashi is also a lot smarter.

Sasuke is godly powerful, no one denies it. Who does is biased. But mere power, as strong as it is, is useless to fight Kamui. An atomic bomb or a basical Katon ninjutsu are the same time to phasing. His S/T can be easily countered (phasing, Kamui teleporting or PS flying to be at a distance where the Rinnegan S/T doesn't work) while he can't do the same against Kamui, that outperformed a S/T that trolled Sasuke himself.


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## Trojan (Oct 24, 2014)

Sasuke fodderstomps. 

DMS Kakashi is below the like of Hashirama, madara, Minato, BM Naruto..etc
and you put him against current Sasuke? 

he won't last even 2 seconds. 

Edit:


> Restrictions: Sauce can't use or acess Bijuu chakra, Kakashi had no difficulty in chakra supply. They both start in Base.



Sasuke still wins. Kakashi can't keep his PS for more than a minute or two, so he will eventually go down either way. @>@
and even if we assume that he has no problem, I guess he still has limited chakra, which obviously Sasuke has more than him, and as such would still win.

If you mean Kakashi with limitless chakra, then he stomps. As even Kaguya does not have limitless chakra.


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## Altair21 (Oct 24, 2014)

So much kamui wank.  Wouldn't be surprised to see some people say Kakashi could solo Naruto, Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamura, Sasuke, and Madara (with 3 rinnegan) at the same time. 

Back on topic, Sauce annihilates.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Altair21 said:


> So much kamui wank.  Wouldn't be surprised to see some people say Kakashi could solo Naruto, Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamura, Sasuke, and Madara (with 3 rinnegan) at the same time.
> 
> Back on topic, Sauce annihilates.




DMS has a feat against Kaguya, thats makes him better than Hashirama or non-Jubbi Madara.

He is just too Haxx'd. He can phase your attacks and snipe you out of the air. With a PS that flys


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## Hachibi (Oct 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> DMS has a feat against Kaguya, thats makes him better than Hashirama or non-Jubbi Madara.
> 
> He is just too Haxx'd. He can phase your attacks and snipe you out of the air. With a PS that flys



A PS that can't phase and a Kamui that can be sensed.

OT: Sasuke should stomp him once his time limit end.


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## Mercurial (Oct 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> A PS that can't phase and a Kamui that can be sensed.
> 
> OT: Sasuke should stomp him once his time limit end.



Unluckily, Kamui can't be sensed. It's not Amaterasu, lol.


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## Hachibi (Oct 24, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Unluckily, Kamui can't be sensed. It's not Amaterasu, lol.



I don't see how it's different for Amaterasu. After all, Obito could protect the Gedo in time against Kamui, meaning he has sensed it.


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## SSMG (Oct 24, 2014)

A single eye kamui can be sensed.. the double eye kamui was able to blitz kaguya with no reaction.. who has sensed and countered ammy.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Sasuke fodderstomps.
> 
> DMS Kakashi is below the like of Hashirama, madara, Minato, BM Naruto..etc
> and you put him against current Sasuke?
> ...


...for _fuck's sake_ Hussain, I thought you'd stop downplaying Kakashi. I mean dear fucking god. 'He's below Hashirama, Madara, Minato, and BM Naruto'! 

Fucking Rikudo Chakra allows him to maintain his flying Perfect Susano'o and double speed kamui for as long as he wants. He's above those you listed and you KNOW it. 

As for the battle, Sasuke should win. He has a counter to Kamui with his own teleportation and his Biju empowered Susano'o (even before that) handily counters Kakashi's.


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## Hachibi (Oct 24, 2014)

SSMG said:


> A single eye kamui can be sensed.. the double eye kamui was able to blitz kaguya with no reaction.. who has sensed and countered ammy.



I'm talking about Kamui itself, not it's variant.


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## Altair21 (Oct 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> DMS has a feat against Kaguya, thats makes him better than Hashirama or non-Jubbi Madara.
> 
> He is just too Haxx'd. He can phase your attacks and snipe you out of the air. With a PS that flys



It doesn't really matter. This wank is out of hand. You people wank kamui to the point where you actually think he's capable of beating people like current Sauce, Naruto, Kaguya, Hagoromo, 3 Rinnegan Madara, etc, which is absolutely laughable.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 24, 2014)

Is Sauce Fater than Minato with FTG?


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Altair21 said:


> you actually think he's capable of beating people like *current Sauce, Naruto, Kaguya, Hagoromo, 3 Rinnegan Madara*, etc, which is absolutely laughable.



No I don't think that...Never once did I even claim this


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## SSMG (Oct 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> I'm talking about Kamui itself, not it's variant.



Right but the one youre refering to is inferior to the one itt.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 24, 2014)

Let's discuss about Kamui and it's speed. We should compare it ot Sauce's ST.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 24, 2014)

Kamui sniping is useless against Sauce's s/t.

Kakashi tries that, he's likely to get his own head sniped off when Sasuke shifts him into his position.


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## SSMG (Oct 24, 2014)

Well the activation speed should be about the same for both.. but sasukes cool down is a big hinder on its capabiliioes.


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## Hachibi (Oct 24, 2014)

Sasuke could activate his S/T three times before it got into cooldown.


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## SSMG (Oct 24, 2014)

But it has a cooldown.. kakkashi can use kamui as many times as he wants as long as his chakra doesnt run out.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Let's discuss about Kamui and it's speed. We should compare it ot Sauce's ST.




S/T has a cool-down unlike Kamui spams, that takes the advantage right there. Not to mention his PS becomes intagible. DMS Kakashi is dope dude


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 24, 2014)

Kamui feint.

What's sasuke problem is that he needs a cooldown, whil Kakashi has shown to be using Kamui during the war so many times.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

I still think Current Sasuke takes this, but people are forgetting how badass Kakashi's PS & DMS skills are.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 24, 2014)

Sasuke's zero prep space shift allows him to survive any initial kamui assaults kakashi try. Hell seeing as sasuke got three in the tank before he needs a recharge he could threaten kakashi with blitzes or making him shift positions. Kakashi would have to have his intang on before sasuke shifts to survive he might be able to muster up that much. Kinda skeptical giving sasuke space shifting success rate(it's trolled everyone but kaguya so kakashi will have problems).

Anyway once sasuke PS gets going he will crush kakashi's susanoo with senjutsu bijuudama stalemating raiton and RS naruto blitzing movement speed. Besides kamui shuriken(which is hax more than power) kakashi has not shown the power to match it. Add in the fact the fact that the shuriken has only nailed giant, stationary tails and something as fast as sasuke's BPS should have no problem outpacing them.

Seriously sasuke's BPS is really fast in attack speed and movement speed. Name something else in the series that can keep pace and beat up three naruto avatars and get behind one in plain sight with the others watching yet unable to put up proper resistance.


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## Hachibi (Oct 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> S/T has a cool-down unlike Kamui spams, that takes the advantage right there. Not to mention his *PS becomes intagible*. DMS Kakashi is dope dude


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## Altair21 (Oct 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> S/T has a cool-down unlike Kamui spams, that takes the advantage right there. Not to mention his PS becomes intagible. DMS Kakashi is dope dude



Kakashi never showed the ability to make PS intangible.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Well same difference to me, as long as Kakashi is able to activate and use his intangibility while in PS nothing changes.

Like I said, I'm not taking Kakashi over current Sasuke, but DMS Kakashi is about on terms with the Sasuke we seen fight Kaguya


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## Altair21 (Oct 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Well same difference to me, as long as Kakashi is able to activate and use his intangibility while in PS nothing changes.
> 
> Like I said, I'm not taking Kakashi over current Sasuke, *but DMS Kakashi is about on terms with the Sasuke we seen fight Kaguya*



Nothing suggests that either. The only thing that Kakashi really has that can even make Sasuke sweat would be kamui and Sasuke can counter that with his own s/t jutsu. When it comes to PS Sasuke's was shown to be far superior in terms of DC as it was capable of easily slicing through meteors bigger than the shinju stump.  Sasuke's also able to combine his chidori with it, which stalemated a senjutsu enhanced bijuudama. Probably can do the same with enton as well. Not to mention the 6 paths he has access to due to his rinnegan.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Altair21 said:


> Nothing suggests that either



Why do we automatically assume Kaguya fight Sasuke is above DMS Kakashi ? What did Sasuke even do during that fight ? In fact Kakashi did more than Sasuke in his short time



Altair21 said:


> The only thing that Kakashi really has that can even make Sasuke sweat would be kamui




And thats a lot to sweat. 




Altair21 said:


> Sasuke can counter that with his own s/t jutsu.



Hardly. 



Altair21 said:


> When it comes to PS Sasuke's was shown to be *far superior*



Thats a bit too much right there



Altair21 said:


> Sasuke's also able to combine his chidori with it.



Kakashi has used the Rakiri with his PS as well


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 24, 2014)

In example, Sauce and Kakashi Battles with PS, Kakashi can Kamui Sasuke even he is inside his PS.


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## Altair21 (Oct 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Why do we automatically assume Kaguya fight Sasuke is above DMS Kakashi ? What did Sasuke even do during that fight ? In fact Kakashi did more than Sasuke in his short time



Because his feats even before the Kaguya fight are better. 



> And thats a lot to sweat.



Not really since his own s/t jutsu can counter it.



> Hardly.



Quite the counter argument you've got there. 



> Thats a bit too much right there



No it's not. Kakashi's PS hasn't shown anywhere near the DC that Sasuke's has. 



> Kakashi has used the Rakiri with his PS as well



Kakakshi's has never done this.



*Spoiler*: __ 









Using raikiri while in susanoo is not the same as what Sasuke did in those scans above. Sasuke actually channels his chidori through his PS and thus it becomes much stronger.

 And like I said, he's still got the 6 paths as well. There's not much Kakashi can do if Sasuke decides to use CT seeing as Sasuke was capable of making his targets the actual core of CT (instead of using the traditional black gravity spheres), which completely restricted their movements.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 24, 2014)

Sincerely, what did Sasuke's PS did to Kaguya? Scratch? Nothing, it did nothing.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 25, 2014)

I still... don't understand why people think Sasuke has a chance of hitting Kakashi. Are people really assuming that Kakashi isn't going to be intangible the entire fight? Cause he will be... like I said, Obito could go intangible for 10 minutes and that was only with one Mangekyo. There's no reason for Kakashi to become tangible when he can just stand there and let Sasuke waste all his energy trying to hit him. Kakashi's Kamui is way too fast for Sasuke to react to it. It closed Kaguya's portal in less than a fraction of a second. Naruto was going full speed towards Kaguya and his body didn't move in inch in real time when Kakashi closed her portal.

Sasuke could use his shifting ability if he knew Kamui was coming (still doubtful he could react in time)... but he uses it three times and he's on a cool down... dead. As soon as he can't shift away for even a half a second... he's dead. And Kakashi can certainly spam Kamui head shots when he's powered by Obito and Rikudo Chakra. 

No one has explained what Sasuke is going to do against Kamui... you seem to be exclaiming "Sasuke stomps!" based on the fact that he's Sasuke alone... and not providing evidence as to how he's actually going to win. You can say that Kakashi isn't on X character's level all you want... those characters (other than Obito) have no counter to Kamui either. Regardless of how powerful they are. Power doesn't matter against a target you can't hit and an attack you can't react to.

You can argue that Kakashi is on a time limit... but there's no reason to believe that Hagoromo couldn't keep Obito around for a longer duration than we were shown in the manga. He took everyone away because the fight was over... and even if we did give Kakashi a time limit, Obito was there for at least ten minutes from the time he gave Kakashi his power to the time he left after all that talking. Which is more than enough time to Kamui spam Sasuke. And let's not forget about Kakashi's intelligence. Someone with his brain and that amount of hax... there's a reason he's so "overhyped".

I mean... sure, you could just call this Kamui wank... but maybe you could actually provide some evidence that Sasuke could do ANYTHING against it. How his Sasuke going to hit Kakashi... how is he going to avoid Kamui for 10 minutes... that kind of stuff.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 25, 2014)

Let's not forget also that, Kakashi with DMS had Obito spirit inside him, despite lacking support, his Kamui could be 2x faster, the casting AOE is larger.  Kakashi manage to put inside kamui Some parts of Kaguya abnormal transformations.


When they battle with Susanoo, how can Sasuce counter if Kakashi Kamui's him, he will S/T right? He will S/T outside his susanoo and his doomed.

Kakashi attack Kaguya with PS in a short while but ended effective, Sasuke has been spamming Amaterasu and PS to damage Kaguya but it did nothing.


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## Hachibi (Oct 25, 2014)

Since when Intangibility last 10 minutes?


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 25, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Since when Intangibility last 10 minutes?



Since the Obito/Konan fight... and that was only with one Mangekyo and no Rikudo Chakra so 10 minutes is probably being generous to Sasuke given that we know the Kamui powers are much stronger with both eyes together.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 25, 2014)

*Obito vs Konan*



Hachibi said:


> Since when Intangibility last 10 minutes?



he used it to escape thos shinigami ocean bombs that lasted 10 minutes.

Kakashi's DMS was from Obito right?

So, it's easy to say DMS can spam Kamui and Intangibility for 10 minutes, or since it was enhance with RS chakra, it could be lonegr, I would not say 1 hour.

OMG, I just have thought, Danzo's Izanagi was also 10 minutes right.

So DMS kakashi is really hax and will give Sasuce a pain the ass with Kamui.

Kamui here, Kamui there, Kamui everywhere.


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## Hachibi (Oct 25, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Since the Obito/Konan fight... and that was only with one Mangekyo and no Rikudo Chakra so 10 minutes is probably being generous to Sasuke given that we know the Kamui powers are much stronger with both eyes together.



It's five minute. Obito only escaped Konan's attack by using Izanagi.


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## Hachibi (Oct 25, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> he used it to escape thos shinigami ocean bombs that lasted 10 minutes.
> 
> Kakashi's DMS was from Obito right?
> 
> ...



He used Izanagi for the bombs.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 25, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> It's five minute. Obito only escaped Konan's attack by using Izanagi.



You're right. She attacked him for 10 minutes which is why I got confused. Though, with both eyes and Rikudo Chakra, I'd say ten minutes is a fair estimate for DMS Kakashi's intangibility. Even if it were just five... that's more than enough time for Kakashi to catch Sasuke in a Kamui. He'll have no choice but to use his S/T technique to avoid Kamui (if he can even react in time) and once he uses it three times he's on a cooldown... nothing he can do to stop another Kamui.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 25, 2014)

Well, this is not the Kakashi what we talk about, but DMS Kakashi and he had RS chakra by Obito spirit or soul.


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## Mercurial (Oct 25, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> I don't see how it's different for Amaterasu. After all, Obito could protect the Gedo in time against Kamui, meaning he has sensed it.



Everyone and their mothers sensed or reacted to Amaterasu. While Obito with Rinnegan/Mangekyo Sharingan + top notch reflexes + full knowledge couldn't perceive a full body warp from Kakashi. Minato couldn't tell if Kakashi did warp the Gedo Mazo or not. Pain couldn't tell that Kakashi warped the nail he shot at him. And so on. And that is one MS Kakashi. DMS Rikudou Kakashi could react to Kaguya's surprise use of S/T and outspeed/outperform its warp with Kamui. 

Semiotic Sacrilege solo'd the other stuff.


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## JuicyG (Oct 25, 2014)

DMS Kakashi is too OP, end of story.


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## Ghost (Oct 25, 2014)

Kamui intangibility is not passive. Kakashi is not reacting to Sasuke's teleportation.


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## Mercurial (Oct 25, 2014)

Kakashi reacts with ease. Sasuke's attack speed is not instant as his teleporting is and his S/T can be preempted (he closes his eyes before he uses it, so Kakashi can just phase since that moment), has a limited range, can't be spammed and so on. Kakashi can stay far from Sasuke with Kamui teleporting making his risks from the Rinnegan S/T down to zero, can use Kamui (that outspeeded the same S/T Sasuke couldn't avoid) and Kamui Raikiri (that blitzed the same character that in a weaker form dodged Sasuke's S/T + Chidori with ease). Sasuke can have all the raw power of this world but it's pretty much useless.


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## RedChidori (Oct 25, 2014)

Kai said:


> Sasuke is fueled with half of Rikudo's chakra in contrast to Kakashi's remnants of Rikudo's chakra, so Sasuke's Susano'o should be more powerful. The Kamui shuriken are dangerous, but Sasuke saw what they can do; It's not beyond his ability to avoid projectiles on that level. As we saw against Kaguya's ash bones, Kakashi could only phase himself and not the rest of Susano'o, following its destruction. Sasuke will win the clash of Susanoo's.
> 
> If the fight is scaled down, I still see Sasuke outmaneuvering Kamui with his space-time ninjutsu and landing a fatal shot on Kakashi.



This. Also, Indra's Arrow GG .


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## Mercurial (Oct 25, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> This. Also, Indra's Arrow GG .



Dodged with phasing or teleporting, or warped away


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 25, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Kamui intangibility is not passive. Kakashi is not reacting to Sasuke's teleportation.



Obito chose not to keep his intangibility up all the time to conserve Chakra and because he was confident he could react to any attack... but that doesn't mean he couldn't keep it up even when nothing is hitting him. He proved against Konan that he could stay intangible continuously for 5 minutes with one Mangekyo and no Rikudo Chakra. Against someone like Sasuke, with S/T and nuke attacks... Kakashi will be smart enough to remain intangible for as long as he can (which is probably at least twice as long as Obito could). Let's not forget that Sasuke is fighting Kakashi... not some Susano/Kamui monster. Kakashi is going to be two steps ahead of Sasuke throughout the fight. It's entirely likely that Sasuke hits a Raiton clone and gets sniped in that second of vulnerability. It seems like people are forgetting how Kakashi fights just because he has all this hax now. What makes him so dangerous is that it's KAKASHI with all this hax... meaning he's going to use it in the most efficient and intelligent ways possible.

Kakashi with all the Kamui abilities is a bad match up for anyone. He's a master of feints, clones, and tactics. Having these abilities just means he has some of the most powerful tools around to outsmart his opponents with. And considering he's probably the most intelligence character in the entire manga when it comes to on-the-fly combat tactics... that doesn't leave a lot of room for challengers. Kakashi has so many ways to lure Sasuke into a split second of vulnerability, which is all he needs to end it with Kamui. He has more win conditions. Sasuke has to get through his intangibility and find the real Kakashi. In that time, Kakashi has already won more often than not. 

And why do people keep bringing up Indra's Arrow? Power isn't useful against someone who can phase through it, warp away, or warp the attack itself. That would just waste all of Sasuke's Chakra and make it an even easier win for Kakashi. He could walk right up to Sasuke's tired body and Kamui Raikiri his face (just to be safe from his Chakra stealing, of course).


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## Alucardemi (Oct 25, 2014)

Sasuke was fast enough to give Juudara the slip, without using s/t.

He warps Kakashi into an Enton, end of.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 25, 2014)

Sasuke was not fast enough to get Kaguya, but Kakashi was fast enough to fool Kaguya.


Tier list for S/T, Kamui, and Kaguya's S/T




Kakashi>Kaguya>Sasuke


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## Kaiser (Oct 25, 2014)

Could go either way but i'd give the edge to Kakashi because he is smarter


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 26, 2014)

I agree, Kakashi is just watching how Kaguya fight and ended up with a perfect strategy to defeat her.  Kakashi has been with Sasuke more than anyone else, he trained Sauce, he knows how Sasuke thinks.

I give it to Kakashi also.

Kakashi wins or a draw.  Sauce coul have a draw, but all in all, he is on the losing side.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 26, 2014)

I can't  even believe this is being debated, and for the record obito had a much larger chakra pool then pre dms kakashi, thanks to hashirama dna there's  no reason to believe kakashi can stay intagible for 10 minutes.

I give him 7 as im sure sage chakra boosted his chakra pool.


But sasuke wins for obvious reasons already stated,  sasuke can use 9 chibaku tensei's he can literally spam  them until kakashi runs out of chakra from phasing to much


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## Alucardemi (Oct 26, 2014)

Sauce should be able to just one shot with Rinnegan genjutsu, tbh


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## SSMG (Oct 26, 2014)

Its not gurantee those genjutsus will work on kakashi with two MS.
Sasuke did genjutsu tailed beast and sakura..

But I mean 13year old MS obito was also able to genjutsu Kurama with a glance.
And sakura has no MS to defend herself with.

Edit Im not sure if genjutsu will even work on kakashi when hes phasing.. which he would most likely do right off the bat itt.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I can't  even believe this is being debated, and for the record obito had a much larger chakra pool then pre dms kakashi, thanks to hashirama dna there's  no reason to believe kakashi can stay intagible for 10 minutes.
> 
> I give him 7 as im sure sage chakra boosted his chakra pool.
> 
> ...



Kakashi can phase right through Chibaku Tensei... he can teleport anywhere he wants... and he can snipe Sasuke from that position... Nothing Sasuke has in his arsenal can touch Kakashi. No matter how visually impressive it is or how high it is on a damage scale. 

You act as though Kakashi isn't smarter than Sasuke... why the fuck would he just sit there and let his Chakra run out when he can just teleport away? That's assuming the Kakashi that Sasuke attacks isn't just a clone... which it probably would be. Kakashi has experience, intelligence, and tactics over Sasuke. And since having all three forms of Kamui negates practically any technique Sasuke has including his nukes... Yeah, I can't believe it's being debated either.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 26, 2014)

Genjutsu against anothe genjutsu user?

Kakashi is not damned enough to fall for that, because of Full knowldege, what if Sasuke will be the one fall on Kakashi's genjutsu


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## Alucardemi (Oct 26, 2014)

Double MS Genjutsu is going to resist Sharinnegan Genjutsu from the guy who put all Tailed Beasts into one, instantly, with just one glance and absolutely no seals like his predecessors(Madara and Obito) needed?

Come on.

Obito's genjutsu is strong because its an MS, yes, but to imply that its anywhere close to what Sasuke's genjutsu can do is just silly.
Kakashi is not resisting that.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Double MS Genjutsu is going to resist Sharinnegan Genjutsu from the guy who put all Tailed Beasts into one, instantly, with just one glance and absolutely no seals like his predecessors(Madara and Obito) needed?
> 
> Come on.
> 
> ...



Then why doesn't Sasuke just put Naruto in a Genjutsu and end the manga already? You think Naruto has a better chance at resisting Genjutsu than DMS Kakashi? 

Come on. 

Controlling the tailed beats is not even remotely equivalent to casting a Genjutsu on another Genjutsu user. Especially one with two Mangekyo Sharingans.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi can phase right through Chibaku Tensei... he can teleport anywhere he wants... and he can snipe Sasuke from that position... Nothing Sasuke has in his arsenal can touch Kakashi. No matter how visually impressive it is or how high it is on a damage scale.
> 
> You act as though Kakashi isn't smarter than Sasuke... why the fuck would he just sit there and let his Chakra run out when he can just teleport away? That's assuming the Kakashi that Sasuke attacks isn't just a clone... which it probably would be. Kakashi has experience, intelligence, and tactics over Sasuke. And since having all three forms of Kamui negates practically any technique Sasuke has including his nukes... Yeah, I can't believe it's being debated either.



Sasuke can use 9 chibaku tensei at the same time, kakashi is not coming out of boxland to snipe sasuke by anymeans because of the range. Kakashi or obito never showed the ability to travel a large distance with kamui use

Then theres genjutsu ......


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Sasuke teleports and lops off Kakashi's head.



Pretty much. Fights ends before it starts.


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## Lurko (Oct 26, 2014)

If Sasuke's genjustu can pull through then he wins.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Then why doesn't Sasuke just put Naruto in a Genjutsu and end the manga already? You think Naruto has a better chance at resisting Genjutsu than DMS Kakashi?
> 
> Come on.
> 
> Controlling the tailed beats is not even remotely equivalent to casting a Genjutsu on another Genjutsu user. Especially one with two Mangekyo Sharingans.



Don't be ridiculous, Naruto is a perfect Jinchuuriki. Genjutsu is useless against him.

And as as for that, so what? Sure, genjutsu users can resist genjutsu to an extent, but Kakashi's not resisting Sharinnegan Genjutsu when Sasuke did it instantly, with no seals and a glance to all Bijuu simultaneously, when doing it to the Kyuubi alone needed MS, took a while, and needed seals.

The difference in power is astronomical.


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## Prinz Porno (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Sasuke teleports and lops off Kakashi's head.


Kakashi teleports and lops off Sasuke's head.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 26, 2014)

Dont be naive guys, DMS kakashi can also genjutsu Sasuke, and if Sasuke will genjutsu him, he will have the resistance and just warp himself.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2014)

Sasuke genjutsu's Kakashi into Kamui'ing his own head off.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 26, 2014)

Ms kakashi will resist sharinnengin genjutsu about as much as 3 tomoe kakashi resisted tsukiyomi, the dojutsu are on 2 seperate levels not to mention sasuke has better genjutsi feats such as instantly paralyzing all 9 biju with a glance...


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Sasuke can use 9 chibaku tensei at the same time, kakashi is not coming out of boxland to snipe sasuke by anymeans because of the range. Kakashi or obito never showed the ability to travel a large distance with kamui use
> 
> Then theres genjutsu ......



Obito traveled vast distances with Kamui multiple times... Kakashi showed that he could appear right next to an opponent using Kamui...  

It doesn't matter how many Chibaku Tensei Sasuke uses... Kakashi will phase through all of them. All this Genjutsu talk is just guess work. You have no idea if Sasuke's Genjutsu would work on DMS Kakashi. On the other hand, it's quite obvious that there's nothing Sasuke can physically do to counter Kamui phasing. He can possibly avoid Kamui sniping with his S/T but once he uses it three times it goes on cool down and Sasuke is finished. Throwing in Kamui teleporting is just salt on the wounds.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Wait, there's a argument about Kakashi resisting Sharinnegan Genjutsu? The same Genjutsu that caught all of the Tailed Beasts?

I'm out.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 26, 2014)

What did the taoled beast have to make them Genjutsu immune? Nothing, Kurama was genjutsued by Tobi.

If we will follow your logic, Sasuke can also Genjutsu Naruto since then, why? Naruto can be, Kurama inside him can be.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Controlling the tailed beasts is not a feat that can be applied to a character like DMS Kakashi. It's not even the same kind of Genjutsu that you'd cast on a person. They aren't being tricked. They are being controlled and they are still conscious of reality. Something that has never been shown to work on a person. It's a separate technique that the Rinnegan and the Sharingan posses. Kakashi could almost certainly control a tailed beast as well. But because Sasuke has a Sharinnegan, he can cast the same control over all the beats at once. That doesn't automatically mean it's some godly Genjutsu that would work on everyone else. It's not even remotely comparable. There's no solid evidence that controlling the tailed beats would have any major application against a Mangekyo user. Obito demonstrated the ability to control a tailed beast and Kakashi broke his Genjustu easily. Probably because... oh right... they aren't the same thing.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> What did the taoled beast have to make them Genjutsu immune? Nothing, Kurama was genjutsued by Tobi.
> 
> If we will follow your logic, Sasuke can also Genjutsu Naruto since then, why? Naruto can be, Kurama inside him can be.



Naruto can fall back on the partner method and natural energy. Kakashi doesn't have both these luxure.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Controlling the tailed beasts is not a feat that can be applied to a character like DMS Kakashi. It's not even the same kind of Genjutsu that you'd cast on a person. They aren't being tricked. They are being controlled and they are still conscious of reality. Something that has never been shown to work on a person. It's a separate technique that the Rinnegan and the Sharingan posses. Kakashi could almost certainly control a tailed beast as well. But because Sasuke has a Sharinnegan, he can cast the same control over all the beats at once. That doesn't automatically mean it's some godly Genjutsu that would work on everyone else. It's not even remotely comparable. There's no solid evidence that controlling the tailed beats would have any major application against a Mangekyo user. Obito demonstrated the ability to control a tailed beast and Kakashi broke his Genjustu easily. Probably because... oh right... they aren't the same thing.



_What_

The Tailed Beasts and Kakashi are both living being. How would that be different?

Also, it was clear that Obito hold back against Kakashi. He wanted him to pierce his heart.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Controlling the tailed beasts is not a feat that can be applied to a character like DMS Kakashi. It's not even the same kind of Genjutsu that you'd cast on a person. They aren't being tricked. They are being controlled and they are still conscious of reality. Something that has never been shown to work on a person. It's a separate technique that the Rinnegan and the Sharingan posses. Kakashi could almost certainly control a tailed beast as well. But because Sasuke has a Sharinnegan, he can cast the same control over all the beats at once. That doesn't automatically mean it's some godly Genjutsu that would work on everyone else. It's not even remotely comparable. There's no solid evidence that controlling the tailed beats would have any major application against a Mangekyo user. Obito demonstrated the ability to control a tailed beast and Kakashi broke his Genjustu easily. Probably because... oh right... they aren't the same thing.



Obito nor madara showed the ability to genjutsu all 9 biju at once the feats are not comparable.

Kakashi broke obito's genjutsu because they had the same damn eyes 

Sasuke's dojutsu is now 3 levels above kakashi's he doesn't even have ems


Theres not a shread of  evidence to suggest kakashi can resist a sharinenggon genjutsu not to mention sasuke accomplished this before he absorbed biju chakra.... with the biju chakra the effects would only be more powerful.


Sasuke can also pressure kakashi and blitz his face off and kakashi has nothing to counter his new perfect Susano i swear it's  like you guys read a different manga, sasuke and naruto are the 2 most powerful shinobi now clearly


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 26, 2014)

The tailed beast had no DMS, that's a way too different.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> The tailed beast had no DMS, that's a way too different.



Unless you can prove that DMS would protect someone for a way superior dojutsu its baseless.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> _What_
> 
> The Tailed Beasts and Kakashi are both living being. How would that be different?
> 
> Also, it was clear that Obito hold back against Kakashi. He wanted him to pierce his heart.



I think I explained it pretty clearly. Controlling the tailed beasts is not the same as a normal Genjutsu. You don't see Madara or Obito or Sasuke controlling anyone else. It's a technique that both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan can use. But it's obviously different than something like the Genjutsu that Sasuke cast on Sakura. Unless you'd like to provide any evidence that Sasuke can use Genjutsu to control another person... or you could just redirect the argument with irrelevant facts like "They're both living things!"... yeah... and? That has no meaning here at all. Naruto and Kurama are both living things but that doesn't mean that all the techniques that would work against Naruto would work against Kurama and vice versa. 




Bkprince33 said:


> Obito nor madara showed the ability to genjutsu all 9 biju at once the feats are not comparable.
> 
> Kakashi broke obito's genjutsu because they had the same damn eyes
> 
> ...



Hahaha... again with this blitzing nonsense. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Perfect Susano... Sasuke's arrows... Chidori... Amaterasu... S/T blitzing... IT WON'T HIT KAKASHI. It doesn't matter how powerful Sasuke is if he can't touch Kakashi with any of it. Double Kamui is faster than Kaguya. Sasuke ain't blitzing shit.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I think I explained it pretty clearly. Controlling the tailed beasts is not the same as a normal Genjutsu. You don't see Madara or Obito or Sasuke controlling anyone else. It's a technique that both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan can use. But it's obviously different than something like the Genjutsu that Sasuke cast on Sakura. Unless you'd like to provide any evidence that Sasuke can use Genjutsu to control another person... or you could just redirect the argument with irrelevant facts like "They're both living things!"... yeah... and? That has no meaning here at all. Naruto and Kurama are both living things but that doesn't mean that all the techniques that would work against Naruto would world against Kurama and vice versa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sasuke was able to hit naruto who had sensing sage chakra and small amounts of the other biju chakra fueling him not to mention naruto is alot more physically faster then kakashi, why isn't  kakashi being blitz or atleast pressured here??? Then theres the fact that sasuke will just outlast him if he hides in boxland all day.

And i take it you concede on my genjutsu points??

Sharinnengon genjutsu powered by sage chakra and all 9 biju should be able to over power a ms wielder with small pieces of sage chakra


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I think I explained it pretty clearly. Controlling the tailed beasts is not the same as a normal Genjutsu. You don't see Madara or Obito or Sasuke controlling anyone else. It's a technique that both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan can use. But it's obviously different than something like the Genjutsu that Sasuke cast on Sakura. Unless you'd like to provide any evidence that Sasuke can use Genjutsu to control another person... or you could just redirect the argument with irrelevant facts like "They're both living things!"... yeah... and? That has no meaning here at all. Naruto and Kurama are both living things but that doesn't mean that all the techniques that would work against Naruto would work against Kurama and vice versa.



Human can also be controlled by Genjutsu (ie Itachi controlling that woman to take Jiraiya elsewhere)
Itachi's Genjutsu is now *far* weaker than Current Sasuke's.
Just because Madara/Obito/Sasuke didn't do it mean that it isn't possible.
The absence of evidence doesn't mean the evidence of absence.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Sasuke was able to hit naruto who had sensing sage chakra and small amounts of the other biju chakra fueling him not to mention naruto is alot more physically faster then kakashi, why isn't  kakashi being blitz or atleast pressured here??? Then theres the fact that sasuke will just outlast him if he hides in boxland all day.
> 
> And i take it you concede on my genjutsu points??
> 
> Sharinnengon genjutsu powered by sage chakra and all 9 biju should be able to over power a ms wielder with small pieces of sage chakra



You can't blitz or pressure what you can't hit. Kakashi can walk right through anything Sasuke throws at him for at least five minutes (and that's being generous). The minute the fight starts Kakashi is untouchable. 

I don't concede anything. Your Genjutsu points are irrelevant as I explained right above my reply to you. Sasuke's feats against the tailed beats are not comparable or relevant to a fight against Kakashi. Unless you can demonstrate how the ability to control tailed beasts has ever factored into Madara, Obito, or Sasuke's fights outside of the obvious. It's never granted them anything remotely comparable against another person and especially against another Sharingan user.

Sasuke's Genjutsu is probably enhanced by the Sharinnegan. But there's no evidence that it would one shot Kakashi. There's no evidence that he could use it faster than Kakashi's Kamui. There's no evidence that Kakashi's intangibility couldn't prevent any Genjutsu from happening in the first place. That's a lot of guess work. On the other side of the equation, we don't have to make assumptions about what Kamui can do. Because we've actually seen it working. And while we can't say for sure that Sasuke's Genjutsu is too much for Kakashi to handle... we can certainly say that Kamui intangibility, sniping, and teleporting IS too much for Sasuke to handle. That's what I'm getting at. You can argue that Sasuke MIGHT be able to do this or that all day. But I prefer to deal in facts over fantasy.



Hachibi said:


> Human can also be controlled by Genjutsu (ie Itachi controlling that woman to take Jiraiya elsewhere)
> Itachi's Genjutsu is now *far* weaker than Current Sasuke's.
> Just because Madara/Obito/Sasuke didn't do it mean that it isn't possible.
> The absence of evidence doesn't mean the evidence of absence.



Well it certainly doesn't make for a very compelling augment either.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Well it certainly doesn't make for a very compelling augment either.



Then prove me that you can't control a human through Genjutsu.
All I see is "because Obito/Madara/Sasuke didn't do it on a human, it doesn't work on them".


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 26, 2014)

*Double edge*



Hachibi said:


> Unless you can prove that DMS would protect someone for a way superior dojutsu its baseless.



It is not also proven that Sasuke's genjutsu can work with DMS, a claim that it will work on Kakashi is also baseless.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Then prove me that you can't control a human through Genjutsu.
> All I see is "because Obito/Madara/Sasuke didn't do it on a human, it doesn't work on them".



The burden of proof isn't on me. I'm not the one perpetuating what a character can do without any evidence. We haven't seen anyone control a person the way they control a tailed beast. Logically speaking, if they could... they would. It would have ended Obito's fight against Minato. Madara's fight against Hashirama. Sasuke's fight against Naruto. And you might argue that those character's were too powerful for a Genjutsu... well, DMS Kakashi is certainly above Minato and Hashirama. And those character's had plenty of other opportunities to demonstrate this amazing Genjutsu prowess you seem to think they have based on feats against the tailed beasts. 

Like I said. It's not the same kind of Genjutsu. From what we've seen throughout the manga... that's a logical conclusion. Prove otherwise. I don't have to prove it for you.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> It is not also proven that Sasuke's genjutsu can work with DMS, a claim that it will work on Kakashi is also baseless.



Kakashi doesn't have the feat. Simple.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> The burden of proof isn't on me. I'm not the one perpetuating what a character can do without any evidence. We haven't seen anyone control a person the way they control a tailed beast. Logically speaking, if they could... they would. It would have ended Obito's fight against Minato. Madara's fight against Hashirama. Sasuke's fight against Naruto. And you might argue that those character's were too powerful for a Genjutsu... well, DMS Kakashi is certainly above Minato and Hashirama. And those character's had plenty of other opportunities to demonstrate this amazing Genjutsu prowess you seem to think they have based on feats against the tailed beasts.
> 
> Like I said. It's not the same kind of Genjutsu. From what we've seen throughout the manga... that's a logical conclusion. Prove otherwise. I don't have to prove it for you.



Sure, Tsukuyomi has been show to control people like Sage Kabuto. Mugen Tsukuyomi is a planetary-scale control on humans and animals. Not to mention Kotoamatsukami as well.

Two of those technique are below what the Sharinnegan can do, while Sasuke has almost all the conditions to use Mugen Tsukuyomi on a smaller scale.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Kakashi doesn't have the feat. Simple.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tsukuyomi has nothing to do with controlling tailed beasts. You're using the feat of Sasuke controlling all the tailed beasts as a way of showing that Sasuke could do the same or something equivalent to Kakashi. Tsukuyomi is a separate technique that Sasuke hasn't demonstrated with his Sharrinegan. 

Are we really going to argue how a fight would turn out based on what you _*assume*_ a character can do? Alright... well I'll just assume that Kakashi's intangiblity will protect him from any and all Genjutsu. He hasn't demonstrated that ability... but since he's using it to defend against an equally unproven skill... I think it all works out in the end!


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I think I explained it pretty clearly. Controlling the tailed beasts is not the same as a normal Genjutsu. You don't see Madara or Obito or Sasuke controlling anyone else. It's a technique that both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan can use. But it's obviously different than something like the Genjutsu that Sasuke cast on Sakura. Unless you'd like to provide any evidence that Sasuke can use Genjutsu to control another person... or you could just redirect the argument with irrelevant facts like "They're both living things!"... yeah... and? That has no meaning here at all. Naruto and Kurama are both living things but that doesn't mean that all the techniques that would work against Naruto would work against Kurama and vice versa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So despite sasuke having superior dojutsu, more sage chakra, and 9 biju chakra kakashi will still resist his genjutsu?? 

So kakashi is going to just go intangible at the start of the match for no reason kind of ooc don't  you think??


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Tsukuyomi has nothing to do with controlling tailed beasts. You're using the feat of Sasuke controlling all the tailed beasts as a way of showing that Sasuke could do the same or something equivalent to Kakashi. Tsukuyomi is a separate technique that Sasuke hasn't demonstrated with his Sharrinegan.
> 
> Are we really going to argue how a fight would turn out based on what you _*assume*_ a character can do? Alright... well I'll just assume that Kakashi's intangiblity will protect him from any and all Genjutsu. He hasn't demonstrated that ability... but since he's using it to defend against an equally unproven skill... I think it all works out in the end!



Except that Genjutsu isn't physical 

I'm not even assuming and I'm not saying that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi but rather that he surpassed Tsukuyomi.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Except that Genjutsu isn't physical
> 
> I'm not even assuming and I'm not saying that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi but rather that he surpassed Tsukuyomi.



Well Kakashi isn't even in the same dimension as Sasuke when he's phasing. So... good enough for me! We don't need evidence in this thread!

Yes, you're saying a whole lot of things based on a whole lot of nothing it seems.

EDIT - Don't worry. I'm sure there will be plenty of people in this thread by the end of the day, pointing out how wrong I am and how much of a stomp this is for Sasuke. Then you can feel validated in your convictions!


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 26, 2014)

Can a Genjutsu affect a Phasing indvidual?  I say, it wont.

Kakashi has a feat against a genjutsu with just one Sharingan, now imagine that capability with DMS + RS chakra.

And there is a big difference between controlling and incapacitation.

Sasuke using his genjutsu is for animals imo. Lol

He has not used it against Kakashi.

Sasuke's genjutsu against DMS Kakashi is featless.

And it's also easy to say, Kakashi can also Genjutsu Sasuke with DMS.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Well Kakashi isn't even in the same dimension as Sasuke when he's phasing. So... good enough for me! We don't need evidence in this thread!
> 
> Yes, you're saying a whole lot of things based on a whole lot of nothing it seems.



How I am based that on nothing? You're basically saying that you can't mind control a human being with genjutsu, which is basically stupid.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Can a Genjutsu affect a Phasing indvidual?  I say, it wont.
> 
> Kakashi has a feat against a genjutsu with just one Sharingan, now imagine that capability with DMS + RS chakra.
> 
> ...



I can assure that you are trolling now


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> How I am based that on nothing? You're basically saying that you can't mind control a human being with genjutsu, which is basically stupid.



No... no that's not what I'm saying. Try reading what I said again. Or keep using evidence for unrelated techniques by unrelated (figuratively speaking) characters. I don't really care at this point.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 26, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Controlling the tailed beasts is not a feat that can be applied to a character like DMS Kakashi. It's not even the same kind of Genjutsu that you'd cast on a person.



Prove this premise. They are both controlled through the same form -- genjutsu. Its the exact same trick Sasuke uses on Manda, and the exact same trick Itachi uses to control people(not trick them, mind you, 'control') and animals.

The only difference lies in the scale. Btw, it can also create other effects, like knocking someone out, in Sakura's case. Genjutsu is basically just one single thing --  controlling the opponent's chakra in their head with your own - MT's case, doing it through light-chakra. The effects you can create depend entirely on you and your power.
That factor of genjutsu never varies -- it is the defining trait of the technique. Only the strength of the genjutsu does. If the TB's are controlled through a Genjutsu, that Genjutsu merely has to be extremely powerful, which is why only an Uchiha with the MS can do it.

What Sasuke did is multiple scales above controlling the Kyuubi. Kakashi, with a double MS, Rikudo chakra or not(which Sasuke also has so, irrelevant) is not resisting that.

So prove that first premise, when the move they use to control Bijuu is genjutsu.

Othewise, this is just massive -- and I mean MASSIVE, Kakashi fanwank. Which it is.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 27, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Prove this premise. They are both controlled through the same form -- genjutsu. Its the exact same trick Sasuke uses on Manda, and the exact same trick Itachi uses to control people(not trick them, mind you, 'control') and animals.
> 
> The only difference lies in the scale. Btw, it can also create other effects, like knocking someone out, in Sakura's case. Genjutsu is basically just one single thing --  controlling the opponent's chakra in their head with your own - MT's case, doing it through light-chakra. The effects you can create depend entirely on you and your power.
> That factor of genjutsu never varies -- it is the defining trait of the technique. Only the strength of the genjutsu does. If the TB's are controlled through a Genjutsu, that Genjutsu merely has to be extremely powerful, which is why only an Uchiha with the MS can do it.
> ...



Did you read anything I've posted? Like I said... the burden of proof is not on me. I'm not the one assuming that Sasuke can do something without evidence. I've already provided plenty of logical reasons as to why controlling the tailed beats is likely not applicable (directly) to another person. You can keep asking me to provide proof all you want... maybe if you'd like to provide some evidence to the contrary, instead of ignoring the points... nah, too much trouble. 

As I said before, if this fight is just going to devolve into assumptions without evidence... Kakashi wins because Genjutsu doesn't work on an intangible Kakashi. Prove that wrong! I'm the one asserting this to be true... but now you have to prove that I'm wrong! Because reasons.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 27, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I've already provided plenty of logical reasons as to why controlling the tailed beats is likely not applicable (directly) to another person.



Now you must be purposefully acting dense. My post went out of its way to tell you why your argument made no sense, and you just ignored it and went on a slew of passive-agressive ironies, which doesn't really make you seem reasonable at all.

Look, all Genjutsu do one single thing: they control the chakra in the opponent's brain with your own chakra.

That's it. This can be used in various ways --  paralysis, illusions, knock-outs, so and so.

Therefore, since the same thing that's used against humans and Tailed Beasts are genjutsu -- the genjutsu used on the Tailed Beasts necessarily has that function and its necessarily its basis. So, the only difference in the workings of a genjutsu is the strength of the genjutsu.

Now say, Sasuke's genjutsu seems very similar to another genjutsu.

Mugen Tsukuyomi -- which using light, controls the chakra in the mind. Its so strong, that it has the same effect that the supposedly 'Tailed Beast only' genjutsu has, which is the eyes changing. So, if this technique is for Bijuu's only, why does the apparently same method work on every human on the planet? In-fact, the substitution of eyes is proof that the Genjutsu is ultra-powerful, with how dominated and slaved the other mind is.

Further -- Lol, Sasuke also used the same basic Sharingan Genjutsu to control Manda and make him do his bidding, noticing the Sharingan eye on the snake. Its not tailored to Tailed Beasts, its tailored to attack brains. Tailed Beasts, unlike Manda though, require an MS, which has stronger genjutsu, to be controlled.

So, its Tailed Beast only? Seems like genjutsu can just affect anything with a brain *by definition*. And Sasuke's genjutsu on the Tailed Beasts was called just that by the Sage.

It was just a regular Rinnegan Genjutsu, like the one he used on Sakura, one tailoring to control the brain-flow, the other to cease it temporarily.

But ultimately, Genjutsu is all based on the same power-source because they have the same root method. Even if the genjutsu's were different, Sasuke's 'human genjutsu'(which doesn't exist, but okay), would still be of the same strenght as 9 Tailed Beasts instantly defeated. Not to mention the huge difference in visual prowess between a 6-Tomoe Rinnegan and a MS. Kakashi is not resisting Sharinnegan Genjutsu.

Its just not happening.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 27, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Now you must be purposefully acting dense. My post went out of its way to tell you why your argument made no sense, and you just ignored it and went on a slew of passive-agressive ironies, which doesn't really make you seem reasonable at all.
> 
> Look, all Genjutsu do one single thing: they control the chakra in the opponent's brain with your own chakra.
> 
> ...



That's a lot of "if" and "would be". Not seeing a lot of evidence. Seems to me that if controlling the tailed beasts was indicative of a person's overall Genjutsu prowess, we'd have seen a lot more Genjutsu out of Obito and Madara. You're getting way too caught up in the details and semantics. From what we've been shown in the manga, the Sharingan and the Rinnegan have the ability to control a tailed beast. But it has never been directly linked to a user's Genjutsu in general. For all we know, the tailed beats are incredibly vulnerable to these special eyes. 

Like I said earlier, there's no reason to assume that what works on tailed beasts will also work on anything else. Especially considering there's no evidence... you can call it "human Genjutsu" or whatever you want. But we haven't seen ANYONE who has controlled a tailed beast use a similar technique on another person. You can get into the semantics all you want. But you're making a grade school mistake in your logic. Correlation does not imply causation. You're assuming that X will work on Z because it works on Y. Z and Y may share qualities, but without a controlled experiment, it's a fallacy to assume that X with have the same effect on both. 

I have no evidence that Kakashi would be unaffected by Genjutsu when he's intangible. But every other attack we've seen has not affected an intangible Kamui user... so why would Genjutsu be any different? Oh right... because Genjutsu (Y) does not equal all the other attacks we've seen (Z). Unless we see Kamui negating a Genjutsu, it's a baseless claim. Just like the claim that Sasuke's Genjutsu would work on Kakashi because we've seen him control the tailed beasts. Not... equivalent... at... all...


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 27, 2014)

Are we going to stick to this genjutsu?  Because there is also no evidence pointing out the DMS kakashi with RS chakra is vulnerable to sch genjutsu.


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## Santoryu (Oct 27, 2014)

Manipulating tailed beasts and taking out one of the most powerful Sharingan users in Naruto history are two very different things. Even a teenage Obito had no problems manipulating the Kyuubi. Genjutsu isn't going to be the main factor in this battle. 

Did someone just say Kakashi can't warp into Kamui land because he hasn't shown it on panel? My god, next thing you know someone will say Gai can't do push ups in gated form because it wasn't shown on panel. The way Kakashi dealt with Kaguya was incredible-Sasuke is in for a tough fight, but ultimately I see him winning.


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## adeshina365 (Oct 27, 2014)

Rinnegan genjutsu can only be defeated by a Rinnegan user.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 27, 2014)

Resistance to Rinnegan genjutsu is not defeatinga rinnegan genjutsu, that's two different thing.


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## Lurko (Oct 27, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Resistance to Rinnegan genjutsu is not defeatinga rinnegan genjutsu, that's two different thing.



So your saying Naruto, Ashura, Indra and Hamura can't bust out of a genjustu by the Rinnegan? I'm calling bullshit.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 27, 2014)

No dude, your misreading, read the previous post and you will know what Im pointing instead of shitting people out.

Im pointing Kakashi with DMS can resist Innegan genjutsu,

Read first first before complaining.
Dont be naive.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 27, 2014)

adeshina365 said:


> Rinnegan genjutsu can only be defeated by a Rinnegan user.



Based on all dat Rinnegan Genjutsu we've seen throughout the manga, am I rite? Empirical data for the win!


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## Lurko (Oct 27, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> No dude, your misreading, read the previous post and you will know what Im pointing instead of shitting people out.
> 
> Im pointing Kakashi with DMS can resist Innegan genjutsu,
> 
> ...



What's the difference between resisting genjustu and defeating it? Either way the person has won the battle.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 27, 2014)

Dude, if Kakashi DMS resisted it, he can phase and escape the Genjutsu when he enters Kamui dimension.

Be reasonable.


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## Mercurial (Oct 27, 2014)

Still talking about genjutsu? I would like to know Sasuke it's supposed to save himself from Kamui that outspeeded and outperformed (1)(2) the same S/T that shitted on him (3)(4), how can he hit a Kakashi that can stay out of the range of his Rinnegan S/T by Kamui self teleporting and also counterhit everytime with phasing and Kamui Raikiri, and this is just two things to start.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 27, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Still talking about genjutsu? I would like to know Sasuke it's supposed to save himself from Kamui that outspeeded and outperformed (1)(2) the same S/T that shitted on him (3)(4), how can he hit a Kakashi that can stay out of the range of his Rinnegan S/T by Kamui self teleporting and also counterhit everytime with phasing and Kamui Raikiri, and this is just two things to start.



Yes where still talking about genjutsu wtf  You kakashi fans have not been able to prove that kakashi can resist the genjutsu.

Sasuke has superior genjutsu feats, a superior dojutsu by several levels, more sage chakra, and chakra from 9 biju.

Dms was never stated to be immune to genjutsu, to resist a genjutsu, skill and dojutsu level all come into play.

Sasuke has more genjutsu skill and superior dojutsu so unless you guys can prove otherwise kakashi gets caught in genjutsu and he ain't  breaking it.

As for kamui st counters it just fine, and if sasuke uses ps it's  literally nothing kakashi can do, sasuke ps was fast enough to handle 4 kurama bm avataras, kakshi susano cannot compete.


In short sasuke mid diffs him.

The manga is ending in 3 more chapters if you still don't  think naruto and sasuke are the strongest ninja now there's then you clearly never will.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Yes where still talking about genjutsu wtf  You kakashi fans have not been able to prove that kakashi can resist the genjutsu.
> 
> Sasuke has superior genjutsu feats, a superior dojutsu by several levels, more sage chakra, and chakra from 9 biju.
> 
> ...



Hahahaha... wow. Are you a child? So Sasuke wins because you assume he can one shot Kakashi with a Genjutsu he has not demonstrated... and Kakashi can't counter it because he hasn't shown Genjutsu defense against this unproven Genjutsu? Do you even logic? 

And nice try dumbing down Kakashi. Sasuke can use PS all he wants. It's not hitting Kakashi. Do you even read what you write? Why would Kakashi counter Sasuke's PS with his own PS when he can just save the energy and go intangible? Sasuke tries what he just did to Naruto then nothing hits Kakashi... meanwhile Sasuke's lying on the ground all out of Chakra. 

And no... S/T is NOT an effective counter to Kamui because it has a cool down after three uses while Kamui does not. He uses it three times and he's dead. It doesn't matter how powerful or fast Sasuke is... he's not hitting Kakashi before he gets warped. But you aren't even taking into consideration that Kakashi is far more experienced than Sasuke and has a distinct advantage when it comes to combat tactics. It might not do him any good if this were a match of power or speed. But Kakashi has the one ability that lets him test his opponents abilities without the risk of being hit.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 27, 2014)

It was not stated also that he is not immune. That's a stalemate.


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## Lurko (Oct 27, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Dude, if Kakashi DMS resisted it, he can phase and escape the Genjutsu when he enters Kamui dimension.
> 
> Be reasonable.



In order to resist it, he must beat it... Once he's caught then he's caught until he breaks out of the genjustu.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 27, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> It was not stated also that he is not immune. That's a stalemate.



Oh sorry, we don't bring logic into this.

You have to prove that Kakashi can resist Sasuke's Genjutsu.

But there's no need to prove that his Genjutsu would work in the first place. 

That would make too much sense.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 27, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Oh sorry, we don't bring logic into this.
> 
> You have to prove that Kakashi can resist Sasuke's Genjutsu.
> 
> ...



Genjutsu works on anybody, are you saying kakashi is immune to genjutsu?

Because if you are you have to prove that.

If you believe he can resist it then you have to provide a arguement as to why you feel that way, we already provided the arguement of sasuke having better genjutsu feats, higher level dojutsu and more potent chakra but all you guys have been doing is dancing around the question.


At this point it's  pretty clear you guys have no arguement as to why kakashi would resist Sasuke's  genjutsu because if you had one you would state it and stop dancing around the topic


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Genjutsu works on anybody, are you saying kakashi is immune to genjutsu?
> 
> Because if you are you have to prove that.
> 
> ...



Hmm, or maybe you haven't been listening to a single thing I've been saying. Or you just can't comprehend it. I'm done talking about Genjutsu. You're just going in circles and it's getting tiresome. There's only so many ways I can state why your logic is flawed. 

You have no legitimate evidence that Sasuke could defeat Kakashi using Genjutsu. Just guess work and assumptions based on logical fallacies and incomparable feats. Like I've said about five hundred times now, I have just as much evidence that Kamui's intangibility would prevent a Genjutsu from working (i.e. None). There's no conclusive evidence either way. If you want to base your argument on assumptions without proof be my guest. You could use that kind of logic to help any character win any match up if you tried hard enough.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 28, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Hmm, or maybe you haven't been listening to a single thing I've been saying. Or you just can't comprehend it. I'm done talking about Genjutsu. You're just going in circles and it's getting tiresome. There's only so many ways I can state why your logic is flawed.
> 
> You have no legitimate evidence that Sasuke could defeat Kakashi using Genjutsu. Just guess work and assumptions based on logical fallacies and incomparable feats. Like I've said about five hundred times now, I have just as much evidence that Kamui's intangibility would prevent a Genjutsu from working (i.e. None). There's no conclusive evidence either way. If you want to base your argument on assumptions without proof be my guest. You could use that kind of logic to help any character win any match up if you tried hard enough.



We all assume, this is the battle dome is it not? We make assumptions based off character feats and portrayal and that's how we make our arguments. you single this out as if I'm the only one doing it.

I'll take this as a concession since calling my argument a assumption is not a counter argument.



As I've already stated kakashi nor obito has never used kamui at the start of a match without  reason.

If sasuke was attempting to hit him then it would make sense but at the start of the fight kakashi isn't going into box land for no reason, on the other hand we had plenty of instances where sasuke started the match with genjutsu.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Oct 28, 2014)

Anything is possible. But in this scenario Kakashi wins due to Kamui hax.

You can't deny One eyed obito had a fair chance of killing nagato/itachi/ems madara/even hashirama because of his kamui hax.

Add another eye to that plus Kakashi's Intellect plus Sage of the six paths chakra and susanoo and you get the most hax shinobi in the naruto universe.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 28, 2014)

Not just that hax, My boy Kakashi, manage to make a plan to defeat Kaguya, Sasuke has been trying his best super effort to scratch Kaguya to no effect.

Wit the present scenario, Sasuke will either lose by Kamui or he spends his S/T 3 times and Kakashi will Kamui his head and oof his body.

And we are witness to how Susanoo can deflect genjutsu, this is another hax, but imo, Kakashi inside his PS might be immune also to Genjutsu, and imo, Kakashi can fight Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu.


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