# Kisame vs. Sasori



## IzayaOrihara (Jun 3, 2016)

This is not a battle scenario, but rather, just an analysis of their standing in the BD. Who is higher on the tier ranking? In case anyone has forgotten (there are a lot of forgetful people here on NF .... no shade though ...)
*
Sasori is the guy:*

Was stronger than Deidara, and by that virtue, is somewhere above Hebi Sasuke.
Only lost because he was faced with a bad-match up: another puppet user, who was his cute little grandmother, and had behind her 39 more years of experience, and Sakura, a medical ninja, trained to counter poisons and evade Iron Sand and smash Hiruko's shell. She had prep time and the plot on her side. And Sasori again, allowed Chiyo to kill him at the end.
Had 298 Puppets in his arsenal, only 103 of which we got to see, so  195 were off-paneled.
*Kisame is the guy who:*

Who was repeatedly wankng the Sannin, one of which, Orochimaru, was to an extent, somewhat portrayed as an equal/rival to Sasori. 
Whose best feat was the amazing feat of taking down Killer Bee, yet, lost to, Gai? TBH I dont think he was full power in that fight but anyway.
The best Suiton user on-panel and wielder of Samehada.
Even if you think Kisame beats him in a fight, if we were to list every character in strength order from top to bottom, which one would be higher on that list? Kisame or Sasori? In terms of overall portrayal.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 3, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Was stronger than Deidara, and by that virtue, is somewhere above Hebi Sasuke.


A>B C>B A>C? Never seen this logic used before.


IzayaOrihara said:


> Only lost because he was faced with a bad-match up: another puppet user, who was his cute little grandmother, and had behind her 39 more years of experience, and Sakura, a medical ninja, trained to counter poisons and evade Iron Sand and smash Hiruko's shell. She had prep time and the plot on her side. And Sasori again, allowed Chiyo to kill him at the end.


So what? He's supposed to be the best puppet user. And he lost to his fucking grandmother. 39 more years of experience? More like sitting in that one isolated place doing god knows what. She literally came out of isolation and put up a fight regardless of whether you believe Sasori let her win or not. And on top of that, he lost to a little fucking girl. Prep time is no excuse at all. She's still a little girl ffs.


IzayaOrihara said:


> ad 298 Puppets in his arsenal, only 103 of which we got to see, so 195 were off-paneled.


So Itachi fans cant make up a fanfic Itachi but Sasori fans can make a fanfic Sasori? Not letting you get away with that one mate.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Informative 1 | Disagree 2


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## Ishmael (Jun 3, 2016)

It's sasori I mean I love kisame but if you look at it dude was basically a support character for itachi he fought gai multiple times and I think lost to him then he defeated killer bee and what I really respect him for is how loyal he was but Sasori was a guy who was pure savage often being called sasori of the red sand for how he would make his opponents blood spill onto the sand making it red but he well...you really said chiyo stated herself that sasori could have dodged the blow that killed him if he wanted to but for some reason he decided not to he was known for his deadly poisons and the only way to counter them or make an antidote for it was to be with extreme precision,  also I feel like kisame could have defeated gai and I dont believe he was full powered either but yea I feel like sasori would beat him in a fight and is better then him overall yo Sasori's arsenal was just deadly he was a pure puppet master the best out there he could turn humans into puppets and he also which to me is big he kidnapped and took out the 3rd kazekage who was the strongest ninja in suna history or the strongest kazekage in suna history so yea sasori> kisame


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 3, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> A>B C>B A>C? Never seen this logic used before.


Not that ABC isn't valid (it's usually only disagreed with by Itachi fans who don't want to believe Prime Oro>JMan>Weasel>Nerfed Oro), but I didn't intend to use it there. I was simply making a statement. A lot wank hebi Sasuke what can I do lol he's an Uchiha.


> So what? He's supposed to be the best puppet user. And he lost to his fucking grandmother.


Was Chiyo fighting on her own? No, Sakura, who had strength/medical/antidote/plot was also there.
That's like saying Guy is weak for being matched up against Kimimaro and Base Raikage, one who can spike him if Guy tries to attack him and the other who is a more experience Taijutsu user.
Do you understand what a bad match up is? Or did you just come here to troll.


> 39 more years of experience?


Again, experience is only underrated by people that think 8 year old Itachi > verse what can i do lol.


> More like sitting in that one isolated place doing god knows what.


Sasori also did a lot of sitting around lol

*Spoiler*: __ 











> She literally came out of isolation and put up a fight regardless of whether you believe Sasori let her win or not.


What I believe doesn't matter. Manga stated Sasori let her win, but then again, I'm sure you would ignore that.
Ignoring manga is another thing Uchiha fanboys do. Not saying that you're one, just that your argument parallels with the one of an Uchiha fanboy.


> And on top of that, he lost to a little fucking girl. Prep time is no excuse at all. She's still a little girl ffs.


So Sakura is weak because she is a little girl?
Misogyny, underrating or ignoring manga? I'm not sure which one that is.
I guess 2 year old Itachi deserves no credit for being able genjutsu and injure a 40 - 45 year old Sannin just because he is under the age of 18, or maybe he deserves no credit because that Sannin is my favourite character?.
I guess baby Naruto gets no feats for holding of Shukaku cos he was a little sprog.
I guess Shikamaru isnt really smart just because he is a kid.
I guess Tsunade and Kaguya are fodders because they have a vagina.

Honestly, your argument is the most disgusting i've ever seen on this forum.


> So Itachi fans cant make up a fanfic Itachi but Sasori fans can make a fanfic Sasori?
> Not letting you get away with that one mate.


Back at ya cos the funny thing is, Itachi fans always get away with it. If I say Prime Orochimaru>Jiraiya>Itachi>Nerfed Orochimaru, which is based off the manga, I am persecuted for it, yet Itachi fans are allowed to get away with saying he is stronger than Prime Nagato like WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK???

This isnt Sasori fanfic. And you dont know that, because once again, like the itachi fanboys, you chose not to read the manga yet come on here and spout nonsense.



LAZLOLAZZING said:


> It's sasori I mean I love kisame but if you look at it dude was basically a support character for itachi he fought gai multiple times and I think lost to him then he defeated killer bee and what I really respect him for is how loyal he was but Sasori was a guy who was pure savage often being called sasori of the red sand for how he would make his opponents blood spill onto the sand making it red but he well...you really said chiyo stated herself that sasori could have dodged the blow that killed him if he wanted to but for some reason he decided not to he was known for his deadly poisons and the only way to counter them or make an antidote for it was to be with extreme precision, also I feel like kisame could have defeated gai and I dont believe he was full powered either but yea I feel like sasori would beat him in a fight and is better then him overall yo Sasori's arsenal was just deadly he was a pure puppet master the best out there he could turn humans into puppets and he also which to me is big he kidnapped and took out the 3rd kazekage who was the strongest ninja in suna history or the strongest kazekage in suna history so yea sasori> kisame


Thank you for having the ability to leave character favouritism out of the BD. Many lack this skill.
Thank you for reading the manga unlike the other guy i just replied to before you
Statement of the year. 

Kisame < Jiraiya according to his own statement
Kisame < Orochimaru (maybe even Nerfed KN4 Fight Orochimaru if you look at the context) according to his own statement
Sasori fairly = Orochimaru by portrayal
Poison > Sharks
What part of this can the other guy not understand

@Equilibrium139
How is it a fanfic? The databook (which again, Itachi fans like to wank) stated it. Did i do the maths wrong or something? I got a B Grade so don't trust me lol. 





> Trained by his powerful grandmother, Chiyo, in the art of puppetry, Sasori was an extremely powerful puppeteer and had great skill in creating and controlling his puppets. He created a number of ingenious ones including the three main puppets that Kankurō uses, which were made in Sunagakure before he fled. *At the time of his final battle with Sakura and Chiyo, Sasori had 298 human puppets in his collection.* His status as a puppet master offered him a tremendous advantage against other puppeteer shinobi, especially if the puppets they were using happened to be ones that he created, as seen in his battle against Kankurō. As puppets are usually installed with long-range weapons, Sasori was an expert at fighting at long distances. He had tremendous skill with, suppressing them to the point that they became invisible and he could control upwards to 100 puppets — a feat thought impossible for ordinary shinobi. Sasori can also , even against their will, if they are weakened enough. His usage of puppets was at such a high level that he made mere techniques appear as an artistic performance, what he called his "".



To believe you had the guts to say that Itachi thing. Itachi fans never fortify their arguments with manga databook etc etc. And they always get away with it. That is because the majority of the people in those debates wank Itachi.

*EDIT*
Its the same as when i made Doflamingo vs Mihawk thread. I had the manga, proof that Doflamingo's Parasite can catch faster/stronger people than Mihawk, and that Mihawk had no feats that suggested he could get out of parasite, yet the Ohara mods closed my thread down and say they had to "bite their upper lips and keep the peace on NF" because Mihawk cum storm started. They had no proof except his portrayal was higher than DF (which is a lie) and that he was > Shanks (which again is a lie) and that he is Zoro's final opponent (which doens't mean he can escape Parasite Thread) and the Mihawk wankers were allowed to get away with it to this day because it was a "majority opinion" and to this day I have not returned to the One Piece Battledome because of it. I was in actual raw shock. Its the same thing @Itachi did which @Zuhaitz reprimanded him for: you cant use popularity fallacy to fortify an opinion, and what i said to @Icegaze, me being a minority opinion doesn't mean I am wrong. Itachi fans are always allowed to get away with it. All the time. I'm not gonna let you bring Sasori down with your rubbish either.

Just... how dare you? Don't even reply to this. I'm so disappointed with you

BOTH OF MY ARGUMENTS ARE BACKED UP BY THE MANGA YET YOU CALL IT FANFIC? BEGONE FROM MY THREAD! VANISH! DISAPPEAR!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 3, 2016)

I just started replying then I posted on accident and had to delete. Fuck it, I'll reply when I get back from school. Peace.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 3, 2016)

The reality is nuanced, like most things worthy of discussion. Sasori is no doubt smarter and more cunning, but Kisame has an advantage in raw power. Sasori can defeat opponents with a mere scratch, and Kisame can throw titanic waves of water sharks at you, as well as a missile that absorbs any ninjutsu it touches.

Their results would vary depending on who they were facing and how much knowledge their enemy has on them. Sasori will excel more when his enemy lacks knowledge. Kisame will excel more against ninjutsu-heavy fighters.

Overall, I definitely think Kisame is more rounded and ultimately more dangerous. But a large part of that is that he survived until much later in the manga when scaling was picking up, although not quite to the end where scaling became ultra-ridiculous. Had Sasori survived until chapter 600, he probably would've been a shit-ton stronger via scaling.

But let's address some stuff:



> Was stronger than Deidara, and by that virtue, is somewhere above Hebi Sasuke.



Deidara lost to Hebi Sasuke when it was repeatedly stated and shown that Sasuke was holding back against him, not to mention Deidara having Obito set up a mine field all around Sasuke for him. Hebi Sasuke was portrayed to be comfortably above Deidara. The fight was close purely because Sasuke was holding back to try to get info on Itachi.



> Who was repeatedly wankng the Sannin



Nah, he wasn't. They were talking about Kurama. Kurama could take on several Akatsuki members at once. Not Jiriaya. All Kisame said about Jiraiya was that the "Sannin title" surpassed the title of Mist Swordsmen or the Uchiha name. Kisame himself was not concerned when Jiraiya arrived, and was confounded that Itachi decided to retreat.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 2


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## Ishmael (Jun 3, 2016)

Also sasori vs kisame you got a dude that acknowledge the fact that he was the weaker out of the duo he was in, then you got the dude that was the strongest of his duo although the duos are kind of messed up because Itachi was Kisame's partner and Deidara was Sasori's


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2016)

Kisame casually 
Much better Jutsu 
Better portrayal 
And didn't get beat by an old lady and pre inflated Sakura

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 4 | Dislike 1


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## Ishmael (Jun 3, 2016)

Woww


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## Ishmael (Jun 3, 2016)

Kisame was basically forced to commit suicide and sasori let his opponents kill him


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## ARGUS (Jun 3, 2016)

Man who overwhelmed Bee >>>>> clown who got his shit kicked in by part 2 Sakura

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ishmael (Jun 3, 2016)

Lol wow


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## Matty (Jun 3, 2016)

I'd say they are somewhat equal. Like sadgoob said before they are 2 different fighters. Kisame is easily stronger in brute force and massive AOE suitons, while Sasori is extremely intelligent and has OHKO poison. Satetsu is insanely fast and if you take into account the fact that he is also Oro's rival per set (definitely below him) then I'd say him and Kisame are equal. Both are just a bit lower than Sannin level with a decent chance at defeating Tsunade and more than likely losing to Jiraiya and Orochimaru

I'll try to stay out of this due to my obvious Sasori bias but that is my unbiased take right there


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## Matty (Jun 3, 2016)

Lastly I'll say Sasori has the better hype. And with his 298 puppets Kishi could've made him much stronger. Kisame easilybhad the better portrayal and more panel time. He also could've been treated better as well. So again I say they are hovering around equal ground. I've always had my akatsuki rankings as such:

Obito/Pein
Sick Itachi
-
Sasori/Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
-
Hidan
Zetsu


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 3, 2016)

People talk about Kisame's brute force? Who cares lol. Tell me how he is dodging Satetsu and tell me if he is immune to poison and if so how. And tell me how he is killing Sasori? Thats just in a battle scenario. With hype, Sasori easily wins. Sasori was portrayed as a rival to Orochimaru. Kisame implied he was inferior to the same Orochimaru in Part 2. Him wanking Jiraiya in Part 1 only solidifies that Kisame doesn't have a shot at a Sannin (and yes that includes Tsunade, in case any misogynists wanted to know, by abilities and feats and hype and portrayal) whereas Sasori was portrayed as if he could at least give the the time of day even if he cant beat them.

OFF TOPIC

*Spoiler*: __ 




@ARGUS i just saw you in the hall of fail you made

@StarWanderer: M*adara's ribcage has better durability feats than Sasuke's V3 Susanoo.*
I can't say thats 100% true, but it's worth investigating, unless you think Baku's Fuuton has more power than Onoki + Raikage + Tsunade. So I wouldnt put that in your hall of fail, just pointing that out. And why am I still there, i asked you to take me off, as you know i meant to say Manda partially tanked C0, not that he outright tanked it - you act as if tanking a bit of C0 is a small feat, while you make up fanfic Tobirama scenarios and sometimes wank Itachi. Just saying.






Icegaze said:


> Kisame casually
> Much better Jutsu
> Better portrayal
> And didn't get beat by an old lady and pre inflated Sakura


It's sad that women are just trashed on this forum. Just sad.

I'm not even gonna repeat the explanation for why this is wrong. Small minds don't absorb logic.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Dislike 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 3, 2016)

who is stronger & who wins 1 v1 aren't the same thing

the latter is more important than the former regarding fictional characters in  a ''battledome''


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## Saru (Jun 3, 2016)

Neither is significantly stronger than the other. They're around the same level.

If I had to guess who would win in a matchup, I'd go with Sasori since his poison bypasses Kisame's chakra absorption and Sasori's body seems like it should be able to adapt to a setting with a lot of water.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 3, 2016)

Kisame shits on sasori when it comes to straight up battle. Sasori was forced to get serious against chiyo and pre yin seal sakura(who was got outclassed in CQC by fucking omoi) while kisame was able to force guy to use the 6th gate at 30% power. 298 puppets vs 1000 sharks made of water hmm i wonder what'll come out on top. Funny thing is 1000 sharks isn't even kisame's trump card.

Kisame also was portrayed better. Sasori's on-panel has lost to sakura, chiyo, sai and kankuro. Kisame was able to bitch guys around that level with _water clones_ made when he only had 30% of his strength.


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## Bonly (Jun 3, 2016)

I have Sasori as stronger then Kisame. The man was hyped for taking out an entire country, he had took out the strongest Kazekage in history(well at least at the start of part two) and then added him to his collection, he needs one hit to take out a person or he can just gas them, he has 298 human puppets which can go around using jutsu and possible KG as well, can come up with some good poisons that a poison expert like Chiyo couldn't come up with an antidote while it was hyped that the best medical ninja(Tsunade) and Sakura were capable of doing such, ect. Between his puppetry skills and his poison I find Sasori to be slightly stronger then Kisame

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Ishmael (Jun 3, 2016)

Bonly said:


> I have Sasori as stronger then Kisame. The man was hyped for taking out an entire country, he had took out the strongest Kazekage in history(well at least at the start of part two) and then added him to his collection, he needs one hit to take out a person or he can just gas them, he has 298 human puppets which can go around using jutsu and possible KG as well, can come up with some good poisons that a poison expert like Chiyo couldn't come up with an antidote while it was hyped that the best medical ninja(Tsunade) and Sakura were capable of doing such, ect. Between his puppetry skills and his poison I find Sasori to be slightly stronger then Kisame



THANK YOU!


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2016)

lol minority quoting me

kisame trolls sasori because he can absorb chakra, 1 daikodan and sasori entire arsenal is rendered useless.

iron sand cant help, puppet strings get absorbed, puppet got no durability to tank. the end

easy win for kisame without PIS

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## charles101 (Jun 3, 2016)

Kisame easilly. Let him use this gigant drop jutsu. I can't see puppets swiming.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 3, 2016)

They're around the same level, but I'd say that Sasori was depicted as being a bit stronger and Kisame has no counter to Satetsu and it's poison.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> They're around the same level, but I'd say that Sasori was depicted as being a bit stronger and Kisame has no counter to Satetsu and it's poison.



except daikodan perhaps

you know the jutsu which absorbs other ninjutsu to grow stronger.


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## Santoryu (Jun 3, 2016)

From what was shown on panel, it's Kisame. He contended with the likes of _Bee and Might Gai_. Sasori competed with Chiyo and early part 2 Sakura. I accept the argument that because Sasori was killed off earlier in the series, his feats look dated, but it's the author that matched him up against inferior opponents, so unless he's portrayed above Kisame (he isn't), you can't really make a case for him being superior. The fact that Kisame survived longer also means that he had further room for growth, unlike Sasori.


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## Ishmael (Jun 3, 2016)

You do see Kisame's partner dude was a support  character really  until itachi died....itachi  basically was a duo himself kisame wasn't needed at times plus sasori>Kisame yo Sasori's arsenal is just nasty also sasori took out a whole country didn't he? And dude is the most puppet master out there he's deadly yo he mid diffs kisame


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## Matty (Jun 3, 2016)

Sasori also threw his match. Chiyo wasn't a slouch and neither is Sakura. Just because majority of the DB wants to downplay their abilities/major advantages in the fight (antidotes, nearly full knowledge on how he fights) and the fact it was 2v1 with Sakura playing possum to destroy his strongest puppet, doesn't mean he's weak because those were the 2 who beat him.

And also, Sasori as an Edo had 0 puppets. He was using weakened fighters as puppets. Whether Said blitzed or not does not even matter since Sasori is not a movement fighter. He's stationary and 3rd KK easily would have intercepted him with an attack.

People who claim he is weak because he lost to Chiyo (kage level), Sakura (Jonin Level + antidotes), Sai and Kankuro (who faced him with no puppets) are just being disingenuous or just don't like him

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2016)

From feats, Kisame was depicted as being stronger though through hype, Sasori was depicted as being stronger though that's likely because Kishimoto was fixated on hyping up Sasori more relative to Kisame. In general, I'd imagine Kisame was stronger, but Sasori is a bad match-up against Kisame unless Kisame fuses quickly.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> except daikodan perhaps
> 
> you know the jutsu which absorbs other ninjutsu to grow stronger.



You also mean the Jutsu that's actual strength was never seen before? It's ridiculous to assume that just because Kisame can use a Jutsu that is stated to be able to absorb other Ninjutsu that automatically he can counter Sasori and his whole arsenal easier when we don't even know the actual capabilities or strength of said Jutsu. Without the nigh-hypeless and completely featless Daikodan him beating Sasori is unlikely.



Matty said:


> Sasori also threw his match. Chiyo wasn't a slouch and neither is Sakura. Just because majority of the DB wants to downplay their abilities/major advantages in the fight (antidotes, nearly full knowledge on how he fights) and the fact it was 2v1 with Sakura playing possum to destroy his strongest puppet, doesn't mean he's weak because those were the 2 who beat him.
> 
> And also, Sasori as an Edo had 0 puppets. He was using weakened fighters as puppets. Whether Said blitzed or not does not even matter since Sasori is not a movement fighter. He's stationary and 3rd KK easily would have intercepted him with an attack.
> 
> People who claim he is weak because he lost to Chiyo (kage level), Sakura (Jonin Level + antidotes), Sai and Kankuro (who faced him with no puppets) are just being disingenuous or just don't like him


 This is the truth, I used to underrate Sasori myself but after rereading that fight between him, Chiyo, and Sakura I realize that he's a lot stronger than I thought.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## charles101 (Jun 3, 2016)

Matty said:


> Sasori also threw his match. Chiyo wasn't a slouch and neither is Sakura. Just because majority of the DB wants to downplay their abilities/major advantages in the fight (antidotes, nearly full knowledge on how he fights) and the fact it was 2v1 with Sakura playing possum to destroy his strongest puppet, doesn't mean he's weak because those were the 2 who beat him.
> 
> And also, Sasori as an Edo had 0 puppets. He was using weakened fighters as puppets. Whether Said blitzed or not does not even matter since Sasori is not a movement fighter. He's stationary and 3rd KK easily would have intercepted him with an attack.
> 
> People who claim he is weak because he lost to Chiyo (kage level), Sakura (Jonin Level + antidotes), Sai and Kankuro (who faced him with no puppets) are just being disingenuous or just don't like him



100% agree with what you said, but how would he fight against shark version of Kisame inside of this?



Sasori is really strong, but Kisame is stronger.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2016)

charles101 said:


> 100% agree with what you said, but how would he fight against shark version of Kisame inside of this?
> 
> 
> 
> Sasori is really strong, but Kisame is stronger.



 He flies out of it.

 Even then, in context, he likely wouldn't even start the battle with a WaterDome.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## charles101 (Jun 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He flies out of it.



It's moving with Kisame (he's always in the centre). I don't think Sasori can swim faster than shark version of Kisame (I don't even mention he can summon tons of sharks).

It's huge, so it would be easy to catch anybody in it. I don't know if he wants to use it, but in the moment he does, he practically wins it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2016)

charles101 said:


> It's moving with Kisame (he's always in the centre). I don't think Sasori can swim faster than shark version of Kisame (I don't even mention he can summon tons of sharks).



 He wouldn't need to swim though since he's using Satetsu to propel him using magnetic forces, not to mention that he can simply fly upwards, so the WaterDome wouldn't even be moving in his direction unless it can somehow fly upwards?



> It's huge, so it would be easy to catch anybody in it. I don't know if he wants to use it, but in the moment he does, he practically wins it.



 Or he leaks poison within the entire thing and Kisame dies.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## Matty (Jun 3, 2016)

I never said he was stronger. I was just saying why I don't agree with people who use Sasori's opponents as a means to downgrade his power. If you look objectively at his fights he was majorly gimped as an Edo and during the fight with Sakura and Chiyo.

Again I consider him and Kisame to be relatively equal. 1v1 is a tough guess and I'm nor here to comment on that. I believe they are a bit below the sannin. But in their ball park.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> You also mean the Jutsu that's actual strength was never seen before? It's ridiculous to assume that just because Kisame can use a Jutsu that is stated to be able to absorb other Ninjutsu that automatically he can counter Sasori and his whole arsenal easier when we don't even know the actual capabilities or strength of said Jutsu. Without the nigh-hypeless and completely featless Daikodan him beating Sasori is unlikely.
> 
> This is the truth, I used to underrate Sasori myself but after rereading that fight between him, Chiyo, and Sakura I realize that he's a lot stronger than I thought.



yata is featless doesn't mean it wouldn't do as the author suggests. all we need to know is what it does and we can take examples from other jutsu such as wood dragon who also have the ability to absorb ninjutsu

the difference here is daikodan gets stronger while absorbing. now we have seen what kind of damage a small shark explosion does, something 10 times the size of that would do more damage

think we got enough info to assess what it can do. and that's absorb sasori puny ninjutsu


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2016)

Matty said:


> Sasori also threw his match. Chiyo wasn't a slouch and neither is Sakura. Just because majority of the DB wants to downplay their abilities/major advantages in the fight (antidotes, nearly full knowledge on how he fights) and the fact it was 2v1 with Sakura playing possum to destroy his strongest puppet, doesn't mean he's weak because those were the 2 who beat him.
> 
> And also, Sasori as an Edo had 0 puppets. He was using weakened fighters as puppets. Whether Said blitzed or not does not even matter since Sasori is not a movement fighter. He's stationary and 3rd KK easily would have intercepted him with an attack.
> 
> People who claim he is weak because he lost to Chiyo (kage level), Sakura (Jonin Level + antidotes), Sai and Kankuro (who faced him with no puppets) are just being disingenuous or just don't like him



He isn't weak because of who he lost to

He is weak because of what he showed 

Kisame simply has the better skill set for dealing with More types of enemies 


Imagine sandaime raikage . The guy could walk up to sasori cloaked and kill him

Not run, but walk. That's how weak sasori attacks are


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## Ishmael (Jun 4, 2016)

The way people underrate and disrespect sasori on this forum is disgusting

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2016)

Sasori abilities really won't help him at all against all these ninja 

- both raikage
- Muu
- SM Naruto 
- MS users


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> yata is featless doesn't mean it wouldn't do as the author suggests. all we need to know is what it does and we can take examples from other jutsu such as wood dragon who also have the ability to absorb ninjutsu
> 
> the difference here is daikodan gets stronger while absorbing. now we have seen what kind of damage a small shark explosion does, something 10 times the size of that would do more damage
> 
> think we got enough info to assess what it can do. and that's absorb sasori puny ninjutsu


But we don't know it's full capabilities, we don't know how fast it absorbs the chakra, how much it can absorb, does it even explode at all, ect. Using something that is almost hypeless and featless as the basis of your argument as to why Kisame defeats Sasori is extremely disingenuous. If you wanna argue that, you'll have to argue something else aside from Daikodan because we'll just end up going in circles on that and never agreeing.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2016)

Oh that minority 

Chiyo who is slower than kisame can dodge satetsu 

Sakura who is slower than kisame can dodge satetsu 

Love the excuse of kisame doesn't start with daikodan so he will loose to sasori 

Feel free to give me an example of when sasori starts the fight with iron sand

Reactions: Funny 2


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Oh that minority
> 
> Chiyo who is slower than kisame can dodge satetsu
> 
> ...


Oh that dyslectic jobless 28 year old. you just insult people and use baseless arguments. This is why no one takes you seriously you degenerate. Go get your life

When did she dodge it outright? Get me a panel

Sakura is trained in dodging as a medical ninja. Dont user her to hype kisame. Use kisame's own speed feats. You say she is slower but has she ever fought Kisame? Dont make baseless assumptions

Its not an excuse. Its a canon fact. This battle is IC. Daikodan has no feats. Its hype has no evidence and Kisame cant counter poison so it doesnt matter if Sasori cant counter Daikodan. What matters is which one is likely to come out first in an IC battle and that is Satetsu




@Icegaze I tagged you again
_Be more mature. You're older than me. Set an example for the next generation. And go get a job while you're at it._

_Stop throwing insults and people who disprove your arguments wankuments and instead throw manga panels to prove your point._


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2016)

Oh gosh ur emotion kills me 

 you only frustrating urself here 

Daikodan GG. He can't do anytbing about it when and once it's used except die

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Creative 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Oh gosh ur emotion kills me
> 
> you only frustrating urself here
> 
> Daikodan GG. He can't do anytbing about it when and once it's used except die


People have disproved that argument so stop using it. You just sound pathetic.

your dyslexia kills me and you only look more lifeless by doing this

Poison GG. Kisame can't do anything about it when it hits him except die


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 4, 2016)

And you never respond to an argument

I said in an IC fight poison is used before Daikodan


yet you ignore that and keep dashing insults

Well played @Icegaze. Well played.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2016)

When an actual poster quotes me I respond 
A overly hormonal  child 
I think not

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> When an actual poster quotes me I respond
> A overly hormonal  child
> I think not


How am I not an "actual poster". Elaborate on this you lying degenerate.

You are an overly salty/bitter scumbag who doesn't know how to read or substantiate an argument

My argument is so good so you start insulting me and taking away rep points

Very classy
Sasori wins

And you'd know all about not responding, since you backed out of my Prime Orochimaru vs Healthy Itachi debate when you knew your argument was desperate

Quiet embarrassing, how childish and cowardly you are, considering you're almost 30 and sitting at a computer insulting 17 year olds. Is your life that boring? If so please don't take it out on me, because it isn't my fault.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2016)

awww need friends?
that salt 

wanked or not, sasori cant do much against water dome though. wonder how he gets around that...


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> awww need friends?
> that salt
> 
> wanked or not, sasori cant do much against water dome though. wonder how he gets around that...



@UchihaX28 said that Sasori could just leak poison into the water. He could also fly out. 
(Read Before Posting)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Oh that minority
> 
> Chiyo who is slower than kisame can dodge satetsu
> 
> ...


Unlike Kisame, Chiyo is an experienced puppeteer who raised and trained her grandson in the art of puppetry. So she knew his fighting style and how many of his techniques worked. 

Unlike Kisame, Sakura is one of the greatest medical-nin in the world who was trained in the art of evasion and she was unable to dodge Satetsu for most of the fight and only did so at the end after having Chiyo's help. 

Feel free to give me an example of when Kisame starts a fight with Daikodan, or rather what Daikodan is capable of, and explain to me how he can counter Satetsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2016)

I'm not trying to say that Sasori defeats Kisame relatively easily. I already admitted that Kisame seemed to be depicted as stronger of the two, but we also have to take into consideration that just because Kisame has greater fire power does not imply he is superior to Sasori. Sasori is superior to Deidara through Deidara's own affirmation and how Deidara speaks to Sasori yet Deidara is clearly the one whose techniques are that of larger scale and possesses more firepower and Itachi is superior to Kisame through how Kishimoto depicted them in Part 1 and that carried through in Part 2 yet Kisame has more firepower than Itachi.

 Just because Kisame has more firepower doesn't at all indicate superiority, not to mention that Sasori himself is well-equipped to handling those with high firepower considering he was actually chosen specifically for his abilities being effective for subduing Bijuu, creatures that possess an immense amount of physical strength and firepower as well.

 So again, claiming that Kisame just one-shots Sasori, one who can easily manipulate the Strongest Kazekage's jutsu in such a way that Kishimoto even highlighted would be most effective taking into consideration of his opponent's abilities is such a vast underestimation of Sasori's strength.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Oh that minority
> 
> Chiyo who is slower than kisame can dodge satetsu
> 
> ...



 There's more to do with actual speed when evading techniques such as that. It's about observing Sasori's attack pattern and moving your entire body in an elegant way such as this:

 Link removed

 That enabled Sakura to do what she did. Just because Kisame is physically faster doesn't mean he'd be capable of evading it when Sakura's observational skills are superior and Sakura positions her body when evading Sasori's attacks much better than Kisame ever would. Seriously, Sakura's evasive maneuvers were inherited from Tsunade who was depicted as very powerful due to being a Sannin. Sakura evading it in no way degrades Sasori's own fighting capabilities. You suggesting that Sasori's Satetsu is pathetic goes against Kishimoto's own perspective of the attack.


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## Puppetry (Jun 5, 2016)

Kisame's Suiton arsenal isn't especially lethal. Nearly every time Kisame has used a Suiton it caused little to no physical damage to the terrain, and even less to the shinobi he was facing. Their intended purpose is to alter the environment, debasing his opponents with a surplus of water and simultaneously providing himself homefield advantage. It's an effective tactic given the scale of his jutsu, but Sasori does have several techniques (most of them using Satetsu based) approaching their range, except his are infinitely more lethal given the force behind them and added poison. 

Scale can be a double-edged sword for Kisame, though. Itachi noted that his jutsu tended to draw attention, which suggests he has difficulty downsizing. There's less nuance to his arsneal than there is Sasori's, which makes him the weaker fighter in my eyes.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @UchihaX28 said that Sasori could just leak poison into the water. He could also fly out.
> (Read Before Posting)



Hey dupe you back 
What's up
Fly out ? Featless claim 

How much poison is he going to leak out would be diluted won't it


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> There's more to do with actual speed when evading techniques such as that. It's about observing Sasori's attack pattern and moving your entire body in an elegant way such as this:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> That enabled Sakura to do what she did. Just because Kisame is physically faster doesn't mean he'd be capable of evading it when Sakura's observational skills are superior and Sakura positions her body when evading Sasori's attacks much better than Kisame ever would. Seriously, Sakura's evasive maneuvers were inherited from Tsunade who was depicted as very powerful due to being a Sannin. Sakura evading it in no way degrades Sasori's own fighting capabilities. You suggesting that Sasori's Satetsu is pathetic goes against Kishimoto's own perspective of the attack.



You think a roll is elegant ?

But speed means kisame is simply less worried about sasori attack

All kisame need to do gain a massive advantage is to barf a lake and swim . His speed in water is such that he could repeatedly blitz the likes of killer bee 

Not taking anytbing away from Sakura here but that's the girl who couldn't react at all to hebi Sasuke speed , like at all


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Unlike Kisame, Chiyo is an experienced puppeteer who raised and trained her grandson in the art of puppetry. So she knew his fighting style and how many of his techniques worked.
> 
> Unlike Kisame, Sakura is one of the greatest medical-nin in the world who was trained in the art of evasion and she was unable to dodge Satetsu for most of the fight and only did so at the end after having Chiyo's help.
> 
> Feel free to give me an example of when Kisame starts a fight with Daikodan, or rather what Daikodan is capable of, and explain to me how he can counter Satetsu.



unlike chiyo kisame can barf a lake off the bat which massively increases his mobility

unlike chiyo kisame can simply use doton and go underground to avoid sasori traps all the while moving towards sasori

kisame need not start the fight with daikodan to win.

satetsu like I said is countered by the fact that daikodan featless or not absorbs ninjutsu. preta path has no feats of absorbing satetsu does that mean nagato cant use preta path against it?

just curious


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2016)

Perhaps I sound like I am trolling sasori here so let me give it another try.

in a straight battle scenario I see kisame winning for the following reasons

Against hiruko- using doton underground tech avoids all hiruko traps while kisame can simply get to him and break the puppet

Against sandaime- iron sand I feel is countered hard by a shark missile which has the ability to absorb chakra. I honestly don't see why kisame would have ninjutsu fired at him and not use it. so far the only time he thought someone fired ninjutus at him that was his first go to move.

I feel sasori 100 puppets cant match kisame 1000 sharks. Sheer number is in kisame favour

Now overall I know people find sasori superior in some ways but for me sasori method of attack is quite limited once u have a defence above puppet chakra shield

kisame method of attack however more often than not by passes durability and due to the scale of his jutsu can even catch speed stars. which sasori method of attack is ill suited for

I honestly cant see who sasori would have an easier time beating than kisame would. can anyone think of someone.

I just cant see how objectively anyone would argue the following

water dome is more difficult for more of the narutoverse to handle than say iron sand. *I put this 2 against each other due to the field advantage each give. *

1000 shakrs is more difficult to handle than 100 puppets . *numbers game here. kisame wins that*

kisame other jutsu simply> sasori other related jutsu. I mean surely

surely 5 feeding sharks, daikodan, lake barfing, suikodan should be above, flame thrower, kazekage other puppet tricks he showed , sasori main body puppet tricks

I don't know, but I have to say there isn't a single character I think sasori can beat that kisame cant.


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## Matty (Jun 5, 2016)

I don't see why they wouldn't be able to be called equal. Both were pretty clearly portrayed to be around Sannin level . Still below but surely they can contend.

Kisame never seemed like his portrayal or hype ever vastly overshadowed Sasori's. In essense Sasori probably has better hype.

Their use in the plot is also totally different. Sasori was a character that showed how fucked up the war could be on a person losing their parents and was a main antagonist as well as Sakura's first major fight to show off her support skills. Kisame is essentially somewhat of a main character since he is Itachi's partner and naturally has more panel time.

And even with that panel time I don't see much to suggest that he is so much above Sasori that a fight between them would be anything other than high dif


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> unlike chiyo kisame can barf a lake off the bat which massively increases his mobility
> 
> unlike chiyo kisame can simply use doton and go underground to avoid sasori traps all the while moving towards sasori
> 
> ...


 Honestly, the lake wont do much because it wouldn't do anything to Sasori and his puppets. Him going underground would only protect him temporarily, and when he does reach and attack Sasori, Sasori can block with Satetsu. I'm not arguing Daikodan anymore, for the reason I've already explained. Unlike Daikodan, Preta has actually shown the ability to absorb every single type of chakra and various different types of Jutsu and is hyped up to be a legendary power of the Six Paths, Daikodan has next to no hype and absolutely no feats. They are factually incomparable and not worth arguing, so stop mentioning it.


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## Matty (Jun 5, 2016)

Tbh if there is no knowledge I don't see how Kisame dodges the initial Hiruko arm cannon. 

That was only evaded by a puppet user and a controlled evasion specialist. What says the guy who has tanked numerous things doesn't tank a needle as well


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Honestly, the lake wont do much because it wouldn't do anything to Sasori and his puppets. Him going underground would only protect him temporarily, and when he does reach and attack Sasori, Sasori can block with Satetsu. I'm not arguing Daikodan anymore, for the reason I've already explained. Unlike Daikodan, Preta has actually shown the ability to absorb every single type of chakra and various different types of Jutsu and is hyped up to be a legendary power of the Six Paths, Daikodan has next to no hype and absolutely no feats. They are factually incomparable and not worth arguing, so stop mentioning it.



the lake isn't supposed to do anything other than increase his mobility several times over which will allow him to easily avoid sasori attacks.
as for his underground attack I only mentioned that against hiruko, I don't think that works so well against sasori generally.

ok so based on ur logic satetsu breaches yata mirror. just want to get what ur saying because if its feats only then please don't mention sasori doing things like flying with satetsu and what have u

as for jutsu who don't have hype, so ur saying a jutsu without hype looses its mechanics described by the author. ok

puppet chakra shield has no hype yet blocked satetsu. so I would say satetsu cant even breach kisame skin seeing that a hypeless defence stopped it.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> the lake isn't supposed to do anything other than increase his mobility several times over which will allow him to easily avoid sasori attacks.
> as for his underground attack I only mentioned that against hiruko, I don't think that works so well against sasori generally.
> 
> ok so based on ur logic satetsu breaches yata mirror. just want to get what ur saying because if its feats only then please don't mention sasori doing things like flying with satetsu and what have u
> ...


No it wouldn't, just because he's faster doesn't mean he can easily avoid everything especially since the nature of said attacks are rather unpredictable and hard to deal with. Not to mention that the poison would end up filling the water since all of Sasori's puppets' weapons are coated in it especially his Satetsu which would lead to Kisame getting paralyzed and then being left open to a killing blow. 

Sure, that'd work against Hiruko but I doubt Kisame is physically strong enough to destroy Hiruko. He'd be better off using one of his Suiton to do it. 

My god, it isn't feats only. Do you not read my posts? It's hype and feats that matter, and Daikodan has next to neither. Which is why it's a non-factor, this isn't hard to comprehend. The Yata Mirror's hype and feats are also very low, as Black Zetsu who called it "invincible" didn't even know what a Susanoo was himself. The Mechanical Light Shield may have no hype, but it's feats would suggest that it's quite formidable.


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No it wouldn't, just because he's faster doesn't mean he can easily avoid everything especially since the nature of said attacks are rather unpredictable and hard to deal with. Not to mention that the poison would end up filling the water since all of Sasori's puppets' weapons are coated in it especially his Satetsu which would lead to Kisame getting paralyzed and then being left open to a killing blow.
> 
> Sure, that'd work against Hiruko but I doubt Kisame is physically strong enough to destroy Hiruko. He'd be better off using one of his Suiton to do it.
> 
> My god, it isn't feats only. Do you not read my posts? It's hype and feats that matter, and Daikodan has next to neither. Which is why it's a non-factor, this isn't hard to comprehend. The Yata Mirror's hype and feats are also very low, as Black Zetsu who called it "invincible" didn't even know what a Susanoo was himself. The Mechanical Light Shield may have no hype, but it's feats would suggest that it's quite formidable.



being faster means exactly that. for the same reason one saying A would easily avoid it is a solid argument. when slower characters using their own methods could. remember sakura could not react at all to hebi sasuke moving. yet could react to satetsu, it wouldn't matter how unpredictable it is. if by the time its aimed at kisame, kisame has covered its entire AoE.

not sure you know how poison works but a jar of poison in an ocean wouldn't kill you anytime soon. especially poison that through direct application takes 3 days to kill you

also if his water is poisoned then he goes for 1000 sharks , sasori cant hit all 1000 before a few get to the puppet and destroy it

sorry what?? !! you don't someone who can physically overpower gai is strong enough to break hiruko who got zero durability feats?? really? oh wow 

lol circular argument satetsu is so strong it didn't break on contact with light shield who is so hard it withstood iron sand

perhaps iron sand failing to breach a defence not even worth mentioning in the manga or DB implies its rather generic. kankuro level stuff really


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 5, 2016)

This might be a little off topic with the argument going on currently, but I recently read two posts on another forum that both certainly raised my respect and awareness for both of these characters. I suggest you all to read them as well.
Edit: Huge shoutout to TheVivas for making these great posts. This guy clearly put alot of time and effort into these posts, and also set aside any bias, something we could all use when approaching these kind of threads, including myself.
tried it.

tried it.

I realize that I've underestimated Sasori and haven't gave him the respect he deserves, so for me personally this was more about him because I already have a great deal of respect for Kisame.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> You think a roll is elegant ?
> 
> But speed means kisame is simply less worried about sasori attack
> 
> ...



 I'm referring to how Sakura positions her body to defend against attacks. Kisame's evasive skills have never reflected such agility. When we witnessed how he attempted to maneuver around Bee, all he could do was shift his upper-body in an attempt to defend against Bee's attacks. He never once positioned his entire body to maneuver around attacks the way Sakura did. Kisame is used to reacting to his opponents by overwhelming them with brute strength or deflecting their blows with Samehada. Kisame's faster, but that doesn't mean he'd be able to evade Satetsu just because Sakura could.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 5, 2016)

Kisame has better feats.

Sasori has better hype.

Up to you which one you rate higher in terms of overall tier list.

In terms of 1v1 Kisame can defeat Sasori and vice versa. Depends on who takes out what big moves first ect. If they both start off blood lusted kisame probably wins as he will just flood the entire area with water and blast Sasori with his Giant SHark missiles.


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm referring to how Sakura positions her body to defend against attacks. Kisame's evasive skills have never reflected such agility. When we witnessed how he attempted to maneuver around Bee, all he could do was shift his upper-body in an attempt to defend against Bee's attacks. He never once positioned his entire body to maneuver around attacks the way Sakura did. Kisame is used to reacting to his opponents by overwhelming them with brute strength or deflecting their blows with Samehada. Kisame's faster, but that doesn't mean he'd be able to evade Satetsu just because Sakura could.



A has never positioned his body in any way to avoid an attack are you implying A won't have a much easier time than Sakura did 

Do u know why he would he is much faster 

Kisame is also much faster . It's that simple 

Sasori would have trouble keeping up


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## Matty (Jun 6, 2016)

How is Kisame much faster? The side has never been known as a speedster. He is a tank

It is amazing. A guy solos a country and kills the strongest Kazekage without him being in his arsenal, is a rival of orochimaru and somehow he can't keep up with fast fighters

I'm sure a couple of those 298 puppets were fast people. Sandaime is Sasori's movement. Chiyo mentioned it was fast. Sasori himself does not need to be fast when 3rd Kk is gonna be moving and intercepting Kisame for him


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> A has never positioned his body in any way to avoid an attack are you implying A won't have a much easier time than Sakura did
> 
> Do u know why he would he is much faster
> 
> ...



 Raikage has higher reactions and much higher speed to the point where he'd likely evade Satetsu.

 Kisame, while faster, I don't think he's comfortably above to the point where he'd evade Satetsu as well as Sakura did because he's much less agile than she is. How would Sasori have trouble keeping up though?


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Raikage has higher reactions and much higher speed to the point where he'd likely evade Satetsu.
> 
> Kisame, while faster, I don't think he's comfortably above to the point where he'd evade Satetsu as well as Sakura did because he's much less agile than she is. How would Sasori have trouble keeping up though?



And kisame has higher reactions and much higher speed than Sakura when he is in water 

Why don't u think . Under water the guy could completely and repeatedly blitz killer bee 

Sasori won't be able to track his speed to hit him is how 

Gai got tossed by killer bee , used 6th gate to jump 

And yet kisame underwater speed got him there in the time it took gai 

Certainly u won't be arguing gai would have trouble with satetsu so why would kisame under water 

Who btw sasori won't even be able to see if he goes underwater 

Again Sakura is the girl who couldn't react to hebi Sasuke speed 

Kisame is the guy who reacted to killer bee 

Killer bee speed >>> Sasuke speed


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Matty said:


> How is Kisame much faster? The side has never been known as a speedster. He is a tank
> 
> It is amazing. A guy solos a country and kills the strongest Kazekage without him being in his arsenal, is a rival of orochimaru and somehow he can't keep up with fast fighters
> 
> I'm sure a couple of those 298 puppets were fast people. Sandaime is Sasori's movement. Chiyo mentioned it was fast. Sasori himself does not need to be fast when 3rd Kk is gonna be moving and intercepting Kisame for him



It's amazing kisame was the best bijuu hunter in akatsuki the same group as sasori was a part of but people think he is going to have problem with sand or projectile weapons 

Those kind of arguments are a tad irrelevant 

It's how their jutsu stack up against each other that matters 

Kisame barfs a lake he gains an insurmountable advantage over sasori


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And kisame has higher reactions and much higher speed than Sakura when he is in water
> 
> Why don't u think . Under water the guy could completely and repeatedly blitz killer bee
> 
> ...



 Much higher reactions? Being propelled using an aquatic shark wouldn't enhance his reactions. It'd enhance his speed, but he'd have a more difficult time anticipating all of the possible areas Satetsu can strike at if he's moving faster. Besides, that's not something Kisame would employ in combat, it's something he would do if he were attempting a tactical retreat.

 Gai's entirely different than Kisame because his reflexes are higher and he's much more agile in combat than Kisame is, so comparing the two is meaningless. Doesn't matter if Kisame's speed would be higher underwater if it's not specialized for combat to begin with.

 Why're you bringing Sasuke into this? Sasori's attack never specialized in speed. It specializes in covering a wider range in an unpredictable fashion, so claiming that "Sakura was blitzed by Hebi Sasuke" is not a valid response. I never once argued that Kisame couldn't even react to Satetsu's speed. I argued that he wouldn't be able to evade Satetsu because it covers so many areas that Kisame would have to position himself in the way Sakura did in order to evade Satetsu and Kisame showed that he lacked experience doing just that.


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Much higher reactions? Being propelled using an aquatic shark wouldn't enhance his reactions. It'd enhance his speed, but he'd have a more difficult time anticipating all of the possible areas Satetsu can strike at if he's moving faster. Besides, that's not something Kisame would employ in combat, it's something he would do if he were attempting a tactical retreat.
> 
> Gai's entirely different than Kisame because his reflexes are higher and he's much more agile in combat than Kisame is, so comparing the two is meaningless. Doesn't matter if Kisame's speed would be higher underwater if it's not specialized for combat to begin with.
> 
> Why're you bringing Sasuke into this? Sasori's attack never specialized in speed. It specializes in covering a wider range in an unpredictable fashion, so claiming that "Sakura was blitzed by Hebi Sasuke" is not a valid response. I never once argued that Kisame couldn't even react to Satetsu's speed. I argued that he wouldn't be able to evade Satetsu because it covers so many areas that Kisame would have to position himself in the way Sakura did in order to evade Satetsu and Kisame showed that he lacked experience doing just that.



Yes kisame reacted to killer bee when Sakura couldn't react to hebi Sasuke . Killer bee >>> hebi Sasuke . Therefore kisame reAcrions >>> Sakura reActions . 

Who says kisame won't use that method in combat ? If it's required he would ur the guy claiming sasori can use satetsu to fly despite never showing it 

Yet u would argue kisame can't do something to help him avoid attacks ?

Considering he will use 1000 shark jutsu at some point makes good sense to benefit from one of the Sharks superior movement during the fight 

Again speed would allow kisame to cover a wider area than satetsu can reach therefore avoiding it 

It's the reason fast ninja would be able to avoid it not because they can anticipate every attack but because they can simply travel the AoE of the attack 

Iron sand world order AoE was also quite small when you think about it . That kind of distance is something kisame can easily cover underwater


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## Matty (Jun 6, 2016)

Is Kisame faster than Orochimaru?


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## Matty (Jun 6, 2016)

Because I'm sure Sasori wouldn't have been confident in fighting Orochimaru if he would have trouble tracking Kisame who is nowhere near top tier speed.

If you think Kisame wins I have no problem with that. Acting as if Sasori will lose due to Kisame's speed is just not true, however. 

Sakura was also controlled by Chiyo so let's stop acting like it was her reactions. It was Chiyo who knows puppeteering


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> awww need friends?
> that salt
> 
> wanked or not, sasori cant do much against water dome though. wonder how he gets around that...


I wonder if you know what a debate is ...
@Icegaze you are just a dunce. A 28 year old man sitting at a computer all day harassing 17 year olds. You do not know how to substantiate an argument. Every time I say anything, you just respond with a short sentence of insults. You do not know how to debate so why come to the Battledome? You just look stupid. And even your fellow Itachi wankers like @UchihaX28 agreed with what @HandfullofNaruto said, which shows that you really need to evaluate your life. I wrote a long post here, sent you more essays than I wrote for my GCSE where the Orochimaru vs Itachi debate was concerned, and never ahve you read any of my posts, so how can you say I am not a "real poster". If I am not real, then what does that make you? I send you a 5 essays (full of manga scans/data-book statements) to prove Prime Orochimaru > Healthy Itachi. You ignore it and say "I'm bored of the debate so imma quit", or you just delete the call outs i post on your profile page, or ignore the conversation invites I send you, showing that you can't debate. I write a good post here in this thread, and you ignore it, and just insult me. It looks like you don't know how to debate. I accept your concession. When I sent you that scan from the Mitsuki chapter and since you haven't said anything, I've just been laughing at you. I proved you wrong that badly that you are at home crying and throwing internet tantrums like a little baby. It's just sad. I know 16 year olds that are more mature than you, a sad 28 year old jobless spiteful sour salty internet troll with no life to live. You say I'm salty, but bitch I'm chilling. You have no arguments in any thread. I still have my improved essays and my arguments, which any interested people can read if they want to if I invite them to that discussion, while you have been proved so wrong you cover up your stupidity by insulting people young enough to be your little brother/sister (I do hope you don't have one).

"awww need friends?" - for what? I have people here on this forum that support my debate and I have friends in real life. I wish I could say the same about you, seeing as you clearly spend all your time on this forum insulting people who prove your debates wrong.

"that salt" - what salt? I don't care enough about irrelevant characters like Kisame or dated characters like Sasori, to be salty. Funny how Itachi died a long time ago (in real world time and manga chronology), yet Orochimaru is still alive and still relevant. Aww that salt @Icegaze

"wanked or not, sasori cant do much against water dome though. wonder how he gets around that" he swims out of it, or stands there and lets Kisame come up to him and spills poison into the water when he gets up to him, immobilising kisame, ruining his chakra control so that the dome comes down not that it matters to a puppet man who doesn't have lungs, not that it matters in an IC fight where water dome won't get the chance to be relevant (why was it never used against Gai?) whereas Sasori will poison that ugly fish looking creature straight away with Iron Sand

All arguments which people have already stated, and which you have not disproved, because that's your style @Icegaze: you ignore an argument, repeat the same disproved point you already used before, and then throw insults around. You're childish and just looking stupid. But keep insulting me please. It's fun when you show yourself up here and make a fool of yourself in the battledome.

Now listen up my boy, I know you're still salty and sour about this scan ( intercepting KCM Naruto while distracted. ) - if you weren't salty, then why would you see that scan then just refrain from replying to my messages? You know Itachi has no counter to that in the midst of CQC ... anyway, I know you are bitter about that still, but let me just say this - I don't even care about Itachi vs Orochimaru anymore (I'm still gonna debate it, but ...), because I know who is stronger. I have an essay (not the original one, the new compliation of arguments in the conversation which you keep ignoring, showing you are a cop-out, and yes, I accept your concession, It's good to know that you know you are wrong), supported by heaps of scans of manga panels and data-book extracts, so you can disagree if you want to. @HandfullofNaruto believes me (call me and him dupes if you want to, you have no proof, and the mods always discover when someone is duping, so if i was, i would be banned by now, not that someone of your intelligence level would realise that), and one person believing me is enough, especially seeing as that one person is the only one who actually bothered to read my original essay (like i said to everyone on this forum, "If you don't read the textbook, then don't expect to pass the exam" / "the greatest form of ignorance is to reject something you aren't even willing to investigate"), and no one else's biased opinion means anything (no offence Itachi fanboys, but you all know who you are), since they don't read my arguments, especially your opinion @Icegaze, seeing as you don't know how to articulate a sentence let alone a substantiated argument, and frankly, I've had enough of your bitching and whining, and your laughable tendencies to ignore other people's arguments and just regurgitate disproved points.

Sasori > Kisame. Sasori beats Kisame Mid Difficulty.
Orochimaru > Itachi. Prime Orochimaru beats Healthy Itachi Mid Difficulty.
You must agree with the former since you have no viable response to the arguments that @LAZLOLAZZING, @UchihaX28 and the others provided, and you must somehow agree with the latter, since you did concede, as I sent you a panel and you just started ignoring my messages, showing you again, have no argument, and concede (I'm not even gonna ask the other Itachi fans like @UchihaX28 to back me on this one lol ...) so now just go back to whatever hole you crawled out of.

You're actually a nasty individual. Lol i remember the time I said "I'm just using a manga-supported arguments, no hard feelings and have a good night", and you replied 'I don't wish you same", showing how salty, bitter and sour you are that I took your favourite character a few pegs down using the same manga that this character comes from. Oh and I also remember the time you asked me to commit suicide (because my argument was just that good) lol. I understand that Itachi is your favourite character, but do you love him so much that a man of your age would behave like this on an internet forum just because people are using arguments fully supported by the manga, which is the ultimate canon, not the databook you like to wank when it suits Itachi but disregard when it doesn't. You are doing the same thing with Kisame.

I don't even know why I'm typing all this, because I'm probably gonna get a 3 word response which consists of an argument that's already been disproved, followed by a satirical insult, just like every other response i've ever recieved from you on this forum.

There's really nothing else to say. Either use the manga to prove Kisame can defeat Sasori in an IC fight / come and answer to every single point in the Prime Orochimaru vs Healthy Itachi conversation I invited you to, or don't respond at all. If I get another 5 word response followed by/consisting of an insult, then I'll probably just put you on block list and find another Itachi-fanboy to prove my argument too (not that I haven't already done that with you, seeing as you did technically concede to my arguments, which frankly, no one can counter, as you can't disagree with the manga), because @Icegaze, I'm starting to get rather sick of you and your annoying tendency of ignoring other people's logic and then spouting complete rubbish which no one on this forum, not even the fellow Itachi fanboys do not agree with. When the Itachi fanboys dont agree with your bad logic (in any thread), thats when you know its bad, and your situation is desperate.

You also need to read the manga. Here is a link to where they have all 710 chapters plus all the spin offs and one-shots.
intercepting KCM Naruto while distracted.
Have a read of it. You might actually learn something. If you don't have basic reading comprehension abilities like everyone else on this forum, then I can recommend this to you as well.

There is a list of worksheets for you to complete.

I've been planning some essays I'm gonna post in the BD soon for some debates (@HandfullofNaruto knows all about that) and on the side I was originally gonna make this a thread just to shame @Icegaze and call him out for his apalling debating skills, or rather, arguing skills

*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 







... but seeing as we are here, I'll just post it here.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
*CAN YOU BELIEVE ...*

@HandfullofNaruto, i'm gonna post this in the BD as well

CAN YOU BELIEVE ....


*Spoiler*: __ 








... That @Icegaze is ignoring me? I know I shouldn't make a thread for this but I want people to know this man's true nature.

*Spoiler*: __ 








@Icegaze spent the whole Orochimaru vs itachi debate we had calling me and my "dupe" a copout. Yet in reality, he to this day has failed to counter my Orochimaru vs Itachi essay yet talks to me like i'm a piece of trash.

@Icegaze i've been messaging you, opening up conversations, calling you on your profile page. Why do you ignore me?

You asked me for this link to this scan and since then i haven't heard from you. Are you quietly starting to realise that Prime Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru?

*Spoiler*: __ 








There's no need to blind yourself to the truth. And just why do you think you get to ignore my debates when I answered every question you asked? Do you have the right to do that?

*Spoiler*: __ 









Like, "The greatest form of ignorance is when one denies soemthing they know nothing about, yet completely refuse to investigate". There's a few other names I should call out but those people know who they are. They were too busy opening up little Manda vs Itachi/Manda vs Susanoo/Manda vs Orochimaru threads and being spiteful little rats when in reality they failed to counter me and @HandfullofNaruto's debates.

*Spoiler*: __ 








So It looks like i am the winner!

Dear mods, please don't ban me for making this. I just didn't know how else to get his attention. After he has read it, you can lock the thread thanks.
Prime Orochimaru beats Healthy Itachi high diff. I have a new, refreshed, bias-less, essay that proves it. If anyone wants to see it I can provide it for you!
It's just, I've been calling you out @Icegaze in every way possible and this is my last option. I invited you to the conversation. Come there and answer my debates. At one point earlier in that debate you said "i'm bored of the debate so imma exit" - what a cop out. You can't ignore my arguments and then at the same time think you have won the debate.


*Spoiler*: __ 








__________________________________________________________________________________________________
That was originally gonna be a thread, but better I post it here in fact.

*Spoiler*: __ 





​





*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 








@Icegaze you are a laughing stock for saying I am not a real poster. I am the one that gets 3 likes and 1 agree in a post in another thread. You don't even debate. I'm sorry to everyone in this thread that I have wasted your time with this. I would love to stick to debating, but since @Icegaze doesn't know how to, we have to spend time lecturing and educating a 28 year old man who I'm assuming went to school like me, at one point in his life.

I'll jus cut this short with this:

@Icegaze, why can't you just admit when you are wrong. Your ignorance only makes you look even stupider. I know you are bitter about Orochimaru being stronger than Itachi who was sadly only ever stronger than nerfed Orochimaru, but the truth will set you free. The same with Sasori being stronger than Itachi's lapdog aka Kisame. Just know that ...


*Spoiler*: __ 








To be honest I don't know why you are wanking Kisame and his offpanelled jutsu (thats like me wanking Sasori's 195 offpanelled human puppets), but I understand Itachi is your favourite character, but one should never use their opinion of a character's ... character, to affect their judgement of said character's strength. It is wrong on so many levels, stupid and just plain ass ignorant. @Icegaze I'd like to leave you personally, with this:


*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 







And while you're at it, get a life, get a physical and/or digital copy of the Naruto manga, get some proper etiquette, get a set of basic reading comprehension skills, and get a set of top notch debating skills. Not arguing/bitching/whining, but debating.


*Spoiler*: __ 








And also, stop being an ignorant ass. It's not a good look for you.​

Oh look - new posts?



Matty said:


> Is Kisame faster than Orochimaru?


I doubt it. I seriously doubt it.



Matty said:


> Because I'm sure Sasori wouldn't have been confident in fighting Orochimaru if he would have trouble tracking Kisame who is nowhere near top tier speed.
> 
> If you think Kisame wins I have no problem with that. Acting as if Sasori will lose due to Kisame's speed is just not true, however.
> 
> Sakura was also controlled by Chiyo so let's stop acting like it was her reactions. It was Chiyo who knows puppeteering


Exactly. And Chiyo has Top Tier puppeteering skills.



Icegaze said:


> It's amazing kisame was the best bijuu hunter in akatsuki the same group as sasori was a part of but people think he is going to have problem with sand or projectile weapons


Him being a Bijuu hunter has nothing to do with this. He is the best because he is a chakra eater and thus a bad match up for fighters like Bee, who is as different to Sasori as the day is to the night.


> Those kind of arguments are a tad irrelevant


Your style of debating is irrelevant.


> It's how their jutsu stack up against each other that matters


Satetsu is coming out at the start of the battle. Water Dome and daikodan is not. Thats the difference. 





> Kisame barfs a lake he gains an insurmountable advantage over sasori


You talk about lakes but you ignore Satetsu completely and act as if it isn't part of the battle. Good one @Icegaze

@Icegaze a minority just tagged you again by the way @Icegaze
♪What the fuk you gon' do?♪



Icegaze said:


> Yes kisame reacted to killer bee when Sakura couldn't react to hebi Sasuke . Killer bee >>> hebi Sasuke . Therefore kisame reAcrions >>> Sakura reActions .


Using ABC logic eh? The logic you criticise me for using.
And it was Chiyo puppeteering by the way. Like I said earlier, get a copy of the manga.

And stop bringing Sasuke into this.


> Who says kisame won't use that method in combat ? If it's required he would ur the guy claiming sasori can use satetsu to fly despite never showing it


Whose to say Sasori wont use Satetsu straight away like he did when he had Kazekage out against SakuChiyo? Ur the guy claiming Kisame will use Daikodan and Waterdome at the start of the battle despite never showing it


> Yet u would argue kisame can't do something to help him avoid attacks ?


Look - Kisame gets poisoned and that's really all there is to it.


> Considering he will use 1000 shark jutsu at some point makes good sense to benefit from one of the Sharks superior movement during the fight


Sasori will use Satetsu at the start of the battle and you have not yet proved Kisame has the knowledge and speed and reactions to dodge it in base, as Water dome wont be out by the time this happens (at the start of the battle)


> Again speed would allow kisame to cover a wider area than satetsu can reach therefore avoiding it
> 
> It's the reason fast ninja would be able to avoid it not because they can anticipate every attack but because they can simply travel the AoE of the attack
> 
> Iron sand world order AoE was also quite small when you think about it . That kind of distance is something kisame can easily cover underwater



It was not small

*Spoiler*: __ 










Okay moving on ....

Dont make up lies to water down Sasori in order to suit Kisame. And what is this underwater fantasy you keep imagining. Is Kisame, in an IC fight, bringing out water dome before Sasori moves his fingers? No. And he can leak poison throughout the water anyway. If Kisame wants to run from it, even better, since he is the centre of the dome. When he runs from the poison, Sasori gets out of the dome. Iron Sand particles could get into Kisames gills as well when he is in Shark Fusion Form, and that would be a very unfortunate event for him since


Tsunade has been noted by Jiraiya to be the only person capable of poisoning a ninja without them knowing, as she managed to spike his sake with an odourless, colourless poison that left him unable to properly control his chakra.
 has developed a poison which is specifically designed to suppress the  kekkei genkai.
 had developed such a poison that *even if a small amount is introduced into the bloodstream*, the affected person will die within three days while also being *painfully paralysed for the duration*. According to Sakura,* this poison is refined with heavy metals which gets into the muscles and destroys the cells*. The antidote for this poison is extremely complex - so much so that no one in  was capable of creating it.
's 's blood is poisonous, and evaporates upon contact with air, paralysing anyone who breathes it in. Its potency is such that even Sasuke Uchiha, who has gained an immunity to most poison, was affected.
One of the poisons taught to Sakura by Shizune is able to be entrenched in kunai and has a delayed effect, as Naruto was cut with it but collapsed some time afterwards.
Sakura also uses  that contain a strong knock-out gas that can even render ninja like Sai, Lee, and Kiba unconscious in moments.
, in his youth, transplanted the poison sac of a  in his village. He was able to poison the environment just from breathing. He also imbued his's blade with poison.
 has been shown to at least have knowledge of poisonous plants seen early when she threw poisonous plants into 's mouth. She also makes heavy use of  in the video games.
So Waterdome is a double-edged sword.
Daikodan isn't coming out before Satetsu is, which Kisame isn't dodging (give me panels if you wan't me to believe your argument)
And Bakusui Shoha yeah ill give you that one, but its not an attack, it just makes the area into water. What happens then? Five feeding/Ten thousand or whatever sharks? It's not getting through a defence of Iron Sand, and isnt breaking this puppet body



> Because Sasori's core was the only living part of his body that he still contained, his puppet body was virtually indestructible, allowing him to survive the poison mist Kankurō bombarded him with, as well as the impact from Sakura's punches. He was also able to fight for extended periods of time without hindrances that would normally affect a human's body, such as fatigue, muscle failure, loss of blood, wounds, or pain. When smashed apart, he could simply draw the pieces back together. Additionally, Sasori could transfer his core to other puppets in a split second, allowing him to abandon a body that was damaged beyond repair or incapacitated. It is suggested in the manga that Sasori created more than one puppet body in his image. The core was his only weakness, and its destruction would mean his death. After Sasori's death, Kankurō would later take the body and use it as his puppet.


Why don't you read the manga for a change?

PS: How is Kisame striking Sasori's core without getting bleached with Iron Sand in CQC?

Reactions: Like 2


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 6, 2016)

And since @Icegaze likes to insult people and play like a fool, let's all vote for the new option in the poll.


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## ARGUS (Jun 6, 2016)

Kisame is *far above* Sasori Overall and would mid diff him in a 1v1 combat 

 -- Suiton great colliding wave obliterates multiple puppets at once

 -- poison gas and melee attacks are dodged or countered by a huge wave of suiton 

 -- IS attacks are dodged or blocked by a simple shark summoning. 1000 feeding sharks give him plenty of means to allow an opening 

 -- and GSB one shots. He can't dodge the huge ass shark nor is he attacking Kisame through the huge wave of water surrounding him.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Matty said:


> Is Kisame faster than Orochimaru?



DB says he is 
And I don't see how that's relevant 

Oro doesn't need speed to troll sasori though 

Like at all


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Matty said:


> Because I'm sure Sasori wouldn't have been confident in fighting Orochimaru if he would have trouble tracking Kisame who is nowhere near top tier speed.
> 
> If you think Kisame wins I have no problem with that. Acting as if Sasori will lose due to Kisame's speed is just not true, however.
> 
> Sakura was also controlled by Chiyo so let's stop acting like it was her reactions. It was Chiyo who knows puppeteering



Never said due to just speed it's due to the following 

Water dome
Daikodan 
1000 sharks 
Each of these presents sasori with problems he has no solutions for

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> being faster means exactly that. for the same reason one saying A would easily avoid it is a solid argument. when slower characters using their own methods could. remember sakura could not react at all to hebi sasuke moving. yet could react to satetsu, it wouldn't matter how unpredictable it is. if by the time its aimed at kisame, kisame has covered its entire AoE.


 No it doesn't, him being faster doesn't mean he can automatically easily evade everything. He doesn't know Sasori's fighting style or techniques, he wasn't trained in evasion, and his reflexes aren't that exceptional. There's no way that Kisame is easily moving around Satetsu just because he can move fast, that's stupid logic. A is *much faster and possesses superior reflexes *compared to Kisame, A is one of the fastest chars in the series, Kisame isn't at all. 

Your logic is so bad it hurts, just because Sakura can't react to Sasuke's Shunshin and could react to Satetsu doesn't downgrade Satetsu. Sakura couldn't even react to Satetsu if it wasn't for Chiyo and she had already been focusing on reading Sasori's movements beforehand. That isn't the same as Sasuke quickly moving from one point to another, I don't even see how Sasuke matters. Are you trying to imply that Kisame is as fast as Sasuke or faster so he can easily avoid Satetsu?



> not sure you know how poison works but a jar of poison in an ocean wouldn't kill you anytime soon. especially poison that through direct application takes 3 days to kill you


 Once Kisame gets close to him, his gills will inhale the poison around Sasori and it almost immediately paralyzes the target with painful paralysis if you've forgotten. So it may take three days to kill you, but in the meantime Kisame will be left defenseless and his chakra control will drop. 



> also if his water is poisoned then he goes for 1000 sharks , sasori cant hit all 1000 before a few get to the puppet and destroy it


 Sasori's main puppet body is durable enough to not be destroyed by those sharks individually, and his Satetsu or Akahigi can definitely destroy most of those sharks before they can harm him.



> sorry what?? !! you don't someone who can physically overpower gai is strong enough to break hiruko who got zero durability feats?? really? oh wow


 He may be able too, but it seemed like it was suggested that only someone with Sakura's level of strength or close could destroy it. 



> lol circular argument satetsu is so strong it didn't break on contact with light shield who is so hard it withstood iron sand
> 
> perhaps iron sand failing to breach a defence not even worth mentioning in the manga or DB implies its rather generic. kankuro level stuff really


 Look, it doesn't really matter if Mechanical Light Shield Blocking has any hype or not because based on what we've seen Satetsu can withstand Sakura's blows with no damage at all yet could be blocked by that shield. So what that tells us is that that shield is powerful, that doesn't downgrade Satetsu. You're just grasping at straws.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

@Isaiah13000
Ok A knows nothing of sasori fighting style
Would he have an easier time avoiding satetsu than Sakura did ?

Kisame has better reflexes than Sakura is is much much faster underwater than she is on land 

How does kisame have better reactions than Sakura 

Reacting to killer bee who is much faster than Sasuke someone Sakura couldn't react to

Simple ass logic there 

Slower opponent avoids something faster opponent with better reActions would do the same with ease


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## Clowe (Jun 6, 2016)

Kisame is above Sasori and beats him mid diff in a 1 on 1 situation.

 A thousand feeding sharks destroy Sasori's 100 puppets all at once.

Daikodan absorbs the chakra of Satetsu and renders it useless.
Melee attacks are dealt with Kisame's superior reactions and strength + Huge Suitons.

I don't really see any way Sasori can win this. Kisame has ways around his arsenal while Sasori does not.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 6, 2016)

30% Kisame could compete with team Guy, trapped 3 of their members with clones and water prison and forced Guy into a corner. Sasori had trouble hitting Sakura with Chiyo's assistance.

Who the fuck do you think is gonna win

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Isaiah13000
> Ok A knows nothing of sasori fighting style
> Would he have an easier time avoiding satetsu than Sakura did ?
> 
> ...


 Yeah he has superior reflexes, but he doesn't read movements and he isn't as flexible as she is either. He also wouldn't have Chiyo to back him up, so I doubt he'd perform much better if better at all. I already explained how him surrounding the whole area in water and zipping across the place is a terrible idea. Once that Satetsu keeps spreading and he stays close to it his gills will absorb it and he will be defeated quickly. Again, simply having better reflexes doesn't mean you can avoid everything. Kisame's reflexes are good, but they aren't THAT good. The main reason he even beat B is because he was able to keep absorbing his chakra (and he got his chest busted open which is something he couldn't react too), B was protecting his friends, and B didn't want to fully transform because then A would see him.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Matty (Jun 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> 30% Kisame could compete with team Guy, trapped 3 of their members with clones and water prison and forced Guy into a corner. Sasori had trouble hitting Sakura with Chiyo's assistance.
> 
> Who the fuck do you think is gonna win



He killed Sakura twice, though 

IDK B.o.Ship team gai isn't even that impressive. Once gain got real it was over. Besides, everyone knows 30% of Kisame chakra is pretty much close to a full, average shinobi


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 6, 2016)

Satetsu isnt gonna do jack shit when it and Sasori's 3rd Kazekage puppet gets chakra drained by either Daikodan or Samehada.

Sasori had trouble hitting Sakura with Satetsu though. IIRC Sakura even dodged a hit from it by herself with no help.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Matty (Jun 6, 2016)

After nearly dying 10 times.

I honestly have no issue with saying kisame has more raw power, or that he has a better chance 1v1. Doesn't mean he is stronger due to one matchup. And since this isn't technically a Sasori vs Kisame thread....


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> 30% Kisame could compete with team Guy, trapped 3 of their members with clones and water prison and forced Guy into a corner. Sasori had trouble hitting Sakura with Chiyo's assistance.
> 
> Who the fuck do you think is gonna win


 There's no difference between 30% Kisame and normal Kisame aside from how much chakra they have to put into their techniques. Their physical parameters are all the same as far as we know. Team Guy also isn't very impressive either in the large scheme of things, only Guy is a formidable character. Sasori had trouble hitting Sakura with Chiyo who outranks every member on Team Guy (including Guy himself most of the time) and was aware of Sasori's fighting style, techniques, and unpredictability and had Sakura who was trained in the art of evasion and reading her enemies' moves. The only reason Sakura even survived is because she had antidotes that Sasori didn't even know about for most of the fight, and because of Chiyo's assistance. She literally would've died at the beginning of the battle (and other times) had it not been for her. So donwplaying Sasori because of that is wrong.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> There's no difference between 30% Kisame and normal Kisame aside from how much chakra they have to put into their techniques. Their physical parameters are all the same as far as we know. Team Guy also isn't very impressive either in the large scheme of things, only Guy is a formidable character. Sasori had trouble hitting Sakura with Chiyo who outranks every member on Team Guy (including Guy himself most of the time) and was aware of Sasori's fighting style, techniques, and unpredictability and had Sakura who was trained in the art of evasion and reading her enemies' moves. The only reason Sakura even survived is because she had antidotes that Sasori didn't even know about for most of the fight, and because of Chiyo's assistance. She literally would've died at the beginning of the battle (and other times) had it not been for her. So donwplaying Sasori because of that is wrong.


How is team Guy not impressive? Kisame still fought and nearly won a 4v1 against 3 people who are stronger than Sakura, 1 of which should be on Chiyo's level. Neji was a jounin, the only one out of the Konoha 11 and has Gentle fist, a style that is hard to counter. Lee is a physical powerhouse and an accomplished taijutsu expert. Guy even pulled out his nunchaku and couldnt do much to Kisame.

Team Guy vs Sakura and Chiyo would be a win for team Guy.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> How is team Guy not impressive? Kisame still fought and nearly won a 4v1 against 3 people who are stronger than Sakura, 1 of which should be on Chiyo's level. Neji was a jounin, the only one out of the Konoha 11 and has Gentle fist, a style that is hard to counter. Lee is a physical powerhouse and an accomplished taijutsu expert. Guy even pulled out his nunchaku and couldnt do much to Kisame.
> 
> Team Guy vs Sakura and Chiyo would be a win for team Guy.


Them all being stronger than Sakura doesn't mean anything, since Sakura was a bad match-up for Sasori and especially Chiyo. Team Guy would perform even worse against Sasori than Chiyo and Sakura did, as they wouldn't know how to deal with his unpredictable fighting style, know some of his techniques, or be able to combat his poison to any degree. That 30% of Kisame was also defeated and killed by Team Guy with high difficulty, whilst Chiyo and Sakura were allowed to win against Sasori and it was heavily implied that he was holding back the entire time.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 6, 2016)

As soon as Guy opens the gates against Sasori hes fucked. Neji wont be falling to Satetsu since he has Kaiten, Lee could take out tons of Sasori's puppets and Tenten could as well with her weapons. Tenten would be the only one to die to Satetsu


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> As soon as Guy opens the gates against Sasori hes fucked. Neji wont be falling to Satetsu since he has Kaiten, Lee could take out tons of Sasori's puppets and Tenten could as well with her weapons. Tenten would be the only one to die to Satetsu


I'm not sold on Guy winning with just the sixth gate, it'd take the seventh to do it imo. But I didn't mean just Guy individually, I meant as a team unit. Hiruko's initial attacks were considered unpredictable and hard to avoid, Chiyo was able to avoid not only due to her own nimbleness but mostly due to her knowing how it worked. Sakura was completely unable to avoid and had to rely on Chiyo to replicate the same feat and Hiruko's scorpion tail was restrained by Chiyo too. With Team Guy, though I can see Guy, Lee, and Neji avoiding it due to their exceptional taijutsu skill and physical prowess. Tenten would immediately die and be rendered useless. They'd take out Hiruko, but then once the Sandaime Kazekage comes out they're in trouble. Neji could deflect with Kaiten but Guy and Lee have no counter to it on their own, they'd have to activate the Gates to completely avoid it as even one scratch would end it for them. 

From that point Sasori can defend himself by using the Satetsu to protect himself from any of their next incoming attacks. Only thing I see quickly one-shotting him is Hirudora as I believe it could break through Satetsu but I don't think Asakujaku could. So they'd win, but only at the expense of another teammate. Which isn't better than both Chiyo and Sakura coming out alive (even though he let them).


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah he has superior reflexes, but he doesn't read movements and he isn't as flexible as she is either. He also wouldn't have Chiyo to back him up, so I doubt he'd perform much better if better at all. I already explained how him surrounding the whole area in water and zipping across the place is a terrible idea. Once that Satetsu keeps spreading and he stays close to it his gills will absorb it and he will be defeated quickly. Again, simply having better reflexes doesn't mean you can avoid everything. Kisame's reflexes are good, but they aren't THAT good. The main reason he even beat B is because he was able to keep absorbing his chakra (and he got his chest busted open which is something he couldn't react too), B was protecting his friends, and B didn't want to fully transform because then A would see him.



and I have already explained a cup of poison in an ocean isn't poisonous, esp poison so weak it takes 3 days to kill you.

though if swimming around is a bad idea, he simply uses 1000 sharks and at least more than a few will get to the puppet and destroy the glass canon that sandaime kazekage is.

end of iron sand, if its destroyed good thing kisame can attack sasori and the puppet at the same time.

forget hyping daikodan but its hilarious to say it wont at the least absorb iron sand simply because it wasn't shown yet u got the audacity to mention sasori forming a dome. where are scans or statements of him saying he could do that?


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> and I have already explained a cup of poison in an ocean isn't poisonous, esp poison so weak it takes 3 days to kill you.
> 
> though if swimming around is a bad idea, he simply uses 1000 sharks and at least more than a few will get to the puppet and destroy the glass canon that sandaime kazekage is.
> 
> ...


Again, even a single cut from the poison is enough to affect you and take you down. Did you read the Manga? Do you read remember what happened to Sakura after she got infected with the poison? Her body started going numb almost immediately and she could barely mold any chakra. It doesn't matter if it takes three days to kill you because once you're cut you're done. Also again, if he is near the poison in the water then his gills would logically take in the poisonous water and he'd be poisoned. This isn't hard to comprehend, this is basic logic. The concept that Kisame can go through an entire battle with Sasori without getting cut once is ridiculous. 

Suiton: Senshokuko is completely hypeless and featless as it was countered by Guy's Asakujaku. Implying that they will do much to Sasori's puppets to begin with is mostly baseless, which is why I don't see why the Sandaime can't deal with them. With  he can form the Satetsu into anything he desires, so he could form it into a dome to project himself from those sharks. They sure as hell aren't busting through something that took zero damage from a blow from Sakura. So still, you've yet to explain how Kisame will deal with Satetsu.


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Again, even a single cut from the poison is enough to affect you and take you down. Did you read the Manga? Do you read remember what happened to Sakura after she got infected with the poison? Her body started going numb almost immediately and she could barely mold any chakra. It doesn't matter if it takes three days to kill you because once you're cut you're done. Also again, if he is near the poison in the water then his gills would logically take in the poisonous water and he'd be poisoned. This isn't hard to comprehend, this is basic logic. The concept that Kisame can go through an entire battle with Sasori without getting cut once is ridiculous.
> 
> Suiton: Senshokuko is completely hypeless and featless as it was countered by Guy's Asakujaku. Implying that they will do much to Sasori's puppets to begin with is mostly baseless, which is why I don't see why the Sandaime can't deal with them. With  he can form the Satetsu into anything he desires, so he could form it into a dome to project himself from those sharks. They sure as hell aren't busting through something that took zero damage from a blow from Sakura. So still, you've yet to explain how Kisame will deal with Satetsu.



simple answer kisame deals with satetsu with a giant shark that specifically absorbs ninjutsu. now u can choose to ignore this and claim its featless. guess whats featless this dome strategy you speak of.

its hilarious to say senshokuho is featless when Morning peacock could not defeat the technique ,not all sharks were destroyed. which means they are still free to swim and chew up the target

what exactly has satetsu done to suggest kisame cant deal with it should be the better question. because we have actually seen his techniques present difficulty for killer bee and gai

while sasori techniques presented difficulty for much much weaker characters than those mentioned above

sasori puppets have zero durability feats as well. which means I have no reason to believe they can tank anything kisame dishes out.

kisame entire fighting style revolves around absorbing chakra to get stronger. to claim daikodan cant do anything based on lack of feats is comically biased considering sasori has no feats of forming any other shapes but blocks and spikes


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> simple answer kisame deals with satetsu with a giant shark that specifically absorbs ninjutsu. now u can choose to ignore this and claim its featless. guess whats featless this dome strategy you speak of.


 So basically, he has no counter to Satetsu or Sasori's poison. Sasori has also shown the ability to shape Satetsu into anything he wants and the data book says he can as well.



> its hilarious to say senshokuho is featless when Morning peacock could not defeat the technique ,not all sharks were destroyed. which means they are still free to swim and chew up the target


 What did the sharks do that was actually impressive though?



> what exactly has satetsu done to suggest kisame cant deal with it should be the better question. because we have actually seen his techniques present difficulty for killer bee and gai


 It nearly killed Chiyo and Sakura and they only managed to get around it by fooling Sasori.



> while sasori techniques presented difficulty for much much weaker characters than those mentioned above
> 
> sasori puppets have zero durability feats as well. which means I have no reason to believe they can tank anything kisame dishes out.


 I'm not even really talking about his other puppets, I'm mostly just talking about how Kisame can deal with the Sandaime Kazekage. He wont even be able to reach his main body with Satetsu.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I'm not sold on Guy winning with just the sixth gate, it'd take the seventh to do it imo. But I didn't mean just Guy individually, I meant as a team unit. Hiruko's initial attacks were considered unpredictable and hard to avoid, Chiyo was able to avoid not only due to her own nimbleness but mostly due to her knowing how it worked. Sakura was completely unable to avoid and had to rely on Chiyo to replicate the same feat and Hiruko's scorpion tail was restrained by Chiyo too. With Team Guy, though I can see Guy, Lee, and Neji avoiding it due to their exceptional taijutsu skill and physical prowess. Tenten would immediately die and be rendered useless. They'd take out Hiruko, but then once the Sandaime Kazekage comes out they're in trouble. Neji could deflect with Kaiten but Guy and Lee have no counter to it on their own, they'd have to activate the Gates to completely avoid it as even one scratch would end it for them.
> 
> From that point Sasori can defend himself by using the Satetsu to protect himself from any of their next incoming attacks. Only thing I see quickly one-shotting him is Hirudora as I believe it could break through Satetsu but I don't think Asakujaku could. So they'd win, but only at the expense of another teammate. Which isn't better than both Chiyo and Sakura coming out alive (even though he let them).


Tenten is a long range fighter, why would she jump at Hiruko? She stays back and pelts him with weapons. 100 puppets aint beating her, only Satetsu will since shes not fast enough to dodge and her weapons wont deflect it.

Lee, Neji and Guy are all far faster than Sakura and in a 4v1 he wont be able to concentrate on all of them without Satetsu or 100 puppets. Guy and Lee can slap Satetsu away with gates open or hide behind Neji. They have been a team for more than 2 years, they have great teamwork, better than Sakura and Chiyo thats for sure. Guy sure as fuck doesnt need the 7th gate when the 6th gate could BTFO 100 of Kisame's sharks with Asakujaku.

On the actual topic: Satetsu gets fucked by either Samehada or Daikodan. That isnt up for discussion. Kisame thought it could deal with Hirudora till he found out it wasnt actually chakra.


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Stop mentioning Daikodan.
> 
> What did the sharks do that was actually impressive though?
> 
> ...



is that because u have no argument against daikodan. I get u.. its a technique kisame has I cant ignore it simply because u want to

I don't know what did satetsu do that was impressive except get dodged?

again the solution to all that is daikodan, u know that technique that absorbs chakra. this whole it has no feats is a rather weak argument when the mechanics of the jutsu were quite simply explained.

based off feats I don't see why kisame using samehada cant just cut down any satetsu shard that comes its way. u know the thing that couldn't breach a kankuro level defence, chakra shield and all with no hype or noteworthy mention

anyway am done most people agree that kisame wins


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yes kisame reacted to killer bee when Sakura couldn't react to hebi Sasuke . Killer bee >>> hebi Sasuke . Therefore kisame reAcrions >>> Sakura reActions .
> 
> Who says kisame won't use that method in combat ? If it's required he would ur the guy claiming sasori can use satetsu to fly despite never showing it
> 
> ...



 Okay, but Kisame's reactions being higher than Sakura's doesn't indicate that he can evade Satetsu as there were multiple different factors that enabled Sakura to do so.

 There's a difference between claiming Sasori can use Satetsu to fly and Kisame forming an aqua submarine for combat. Sandaime Kazekage's Satetsu made him the Strongest Kazekage in history and flight was literally a simple task for even Part 1 Gaara. Databook also confirms that Sasori manipulates Satetsu most effectively in respect to his opponents and that makes sense given Deidara, one of the best aerial combatants out there, admitted inferiority to Sasori. Kisame's aqua submarine was only used for a tactical retreat and I have no reason to believe why he'd ever use it in combat in the first place.

 He uses 1000 Sharks as a long-range jutsu to overwhelm his opponent, not to enhance his speed.

 Bruh ..... Kisame cannot escape Satetsu's wide range which encompassed the entire area in which Sasori and the duo were battling at. It's a ridiculous claim. Chiyo's more equipped in handling Sasori's techniques and has a Taijutsu and Speed Stat on the same tier as Kisame yet she hardly reacted to it. I'm not expecting Kisame just to Shunshin blitz outside of its large range. That's just entirely unrealistic. 

 Kisame moving fast underwater doesn't indicate that he'd be able to shift his body in other directions as quick as you think he would just because of his high linear speed. Anyways, as I've already stated before, he's not going to use the technique for combat and if he does attempt to do what you're suggesting, Sasori just leaks poison underwater and diminishes the effectiveness of Kisame's jutsu, forcing him to fight above water instead.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Tenten is a long range fighter, why would she jump at Hiruko? She stays back and pelts him with weapons. 100 puppets aint beating her, only Satetsu will since shes not fast enough to dodge and her weapons wont deflect it.


 Alright, you got me at the Hiruko bit but saying that Akahigi wont work on Tenten is an insane statement. They would all lose to facing that puppet onslaught aside from maybe Guy. 



> Lee, Neji and Guy are all far faster than Sakura and in a 4v1 he wont be able to concentrate on all of them without Satetsu or 100 puppets. Guy and Lee can slap Satetsu away with gates open or hide behind Neji. They have been a team for more than 2 years, they have great teamwork, better than Sakura and Chiyo thats for sure. Guy sure as fuck doesnt need the 7th gate when the 6th gate could BTFO 100 of Kisame's sharks with Asakujaku.


 Hiruko had no problem firing at both Sakura and Chiyo at once, but that doesn't matter as Hiruko will be destroyed quickly anyway. Guy and Lee could punch/kick away it's dull forms, but against it's sharp forms they'd die if they did that. Neji cannot maintain Kaiten forever either. Those sharks are hypeless and featless (or at least they've done nothing memorable), just because he can destroy a bunch of water sharks doesn't mean he's breaching Satetsu.



> On the actual topic: Satetsu gets fucked by either Samehada or Daikodan. That isnt up for discussion. Kisame thought it could deal with Hirudora till he found out it wasnt actually chakra.


 Samehada is affected by what it absorbs, and it cannot easily absorb a bunch of Satetsu attacking itself and Kisame. They'd get skewered, and Daikodan is nigh-hypeless and completely featless so it means nothing.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> is that because u have no argument against daikodan. I get u.. its a technique kisame has I cant ignore it simply because u want to


 No, because like I said Daikodan has next to no hype aside from being able to absorb ninjutsu and we don't even know how much/how fast/ect it does it. All we know is "it can absorb ninjutsu" but that doesn't mean much since we've never seen it. So saying that Daikdan can pretty much counter everything when we've seen jackshit from it is a terrible argument.



> I don't know what did satetsu do that was impressive except get dodged?


 Shatter bedrock and tear apart a cave, and nearly kill Chiyo and Sakura.



> again the solution to all that is daikodan, u know that technique that absorbs chakra. this whole it has no feats is a rather weak argument when the mechanics of the jutsu were quite simply explained.


 Look above.



> based off feats I don't see why kisame using samehada cant just cut down any satetsu shard that comes its way. u know the thing that couldn't breach a kankuro level defence, chakra shield and all with no hype or noteworthy mention


 Cause Samehada is affected by what it absorbs? When it absorbed fire it got burned. The fuck do you think will happen if it tries to absorb a flying iron shard? As for the chakra shield, I'm not addressing that again.



> anyway am done most people agree that kisame wins


 I don't care how many people agree that he wins, if they don't provide good arguments then what they all agree on is meaningless.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ishmael (Jun 6, 2016)

Welp...that's all folks see ya this thread died when people started riding kisame and not providing good arguments or anything good to backup what they we're saying


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Alright, you got me at the Hiruko bit but saying that Akahigi wont work on Tenten is an insane statement. They would all lose to facing that puppet onslaught aside from maybe Guy.
> 
> Hiruko had no problem firing at both Sakura and Chiyo at once, but that doesn't matter as Hiruko will be destroyed quickly anyway. Guy and Lee could punch/kick away it's dull forms, but against it's sharp forms they'd die if they did that. Neji cannot maintain Kaiten forever either. Those sharks are hypeless and featless (or at least they've done nothing memorable), just because he can destroy a bunch of water sharks doesn't mean he's breaching Satetsu.
> 
> Samehada is affected by what it absorbs, and it cannot easily absorb a bunch of Satetsu attacking itself and Kisame. They'd get skewered, and Daikodan is nigh-hypeless and completely featless so it means nothing.


Bruh, Samehada could absorb a V2 cloak from Bee, more than once. Daikodan should be around that level since it is presumably Kisame's strongest attack.

Neji could spam Kaiten as a kid, he can do it even more as a teen. Kisame's sharks at 30% could smack Guy around underwater and make him cough up blood.

Also Sakura could take on and break a few of Sasori's puppets, with the support of 3 Taijutsu masters Tenten isnt falling to it lol.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 6, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Welp...that's all folks see ya this thread died when people started riding kisame and not providing good arguments or anything good to backup what they we're saying


we have provided plenty of good arguments wtf are you talking about dude. Get out if youre not gonna contribute.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Bruh, Samehada could absorb a V2 cloak from Bee, more than once. Daikodan should be around that level since it is presumably Kisame's strongest attack.


 That's nothing more than an assumption. 



> Neji could spam Kaiten as a kid, he can do it even more as a teen. Kisame's sharks at 30% could smack Guy around underwater and make him cough up blood.


 That doesn't mean they can breach Satetsu. Satetsu withstood a Chakra Enhanced Strength punch from Sakura and suffered no damage whatsoever. Since it's Iron Sand, it also comprised of earthly elements which is what water is weak too anyway. The idea that a bunch of water sharks can destroy Satetsu is laughable, they wont do anything no matter how many of them there are. 



> Also Sakura could take on and break a few of Sasori's puppets, with the support of 3 Taijutsu masters Tenten isnt falling to it lol.


 Sakura only destroyed one puppet in the Manga, and right after she destroyed one she was immediately attacked by another and needed Chiyo to save her life. The only reason she could even destroy one to begin with was because Chiyo was occupying the majority of them with her own puppets. Team Guy doesn't have Chiyo, so they aren't fairing better against all of those puppets cornering them from all angles if Sasori brought it out. But as I said, I'd rather focus more on the Sandaime's Satetsu since that is more lethal anyway.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 6, 2016)

@Icegaze So basically, your entire argument is that Kisame can easily counter all of Sasori's greatest techniques due to a technique with little hype and no feats whatsoever. He can get around his poison even if he is cut because it wont do anything until it kills you after three days, even though the Manga showed that it starts heavily effecting you mere seconds after exposure. He can also completely ignore it underwater, even when near Satetsu because all of the poison will quickly disperse through the water (that Kisame is in) and not affect him at all because it will all go away. But the greatest part, is that since he has more speed and superior reflexes compared to Sakura he can automatically dodge and evade all of Sasori's attacks with ease. Even though Sakura's ability to avoid them revolved almost entirely around Chiyo (who knew how to counter Sasori's fighting style and was controlling Sakura's movements), and her evasive training as a medical-nin (both things Kisame lacks.) Good job, you've answered next to nothing and have presented me with a horrendous and nonsensical argument.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 3


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## Ishmael (Jun 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> we have provided plenty of good arguments wtf are you talking about dude. Get out if youre not gonna contribute.



Well I mean I am one of the top 5 contributors in this thread so yea.....


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Well I mean I am one of the top 5 contributors in this thread so yea.....



Not for long, I'm catching up real soon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> So basically, he has no counter to Satetsu or Sasori's poison. Sasori has also shown the ability to shape Satetsu into anything he wants and the data book says he can as well..



so basically he can since databook u mention says daikodan absorbs chakra. 

.





> What did the sharks do that was actually impressive though?.



I don't know. what did satetsu do that was impressive?

.





> It nearly killed Chiyo and Sakura and they only managed to get around it by fooling Sasori.
> 
> I'm not even really talking about his other puppets, I'm mostly just talking about how Kisame can deal with the Sandaime Kazekage. He wont even be able to reach his main body with Satetsu.



daikodan


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No, because like I said Daikodan has next to no hype aside from being able to absorb ninjutsu and we don't even know how much/how fast/ect it does it. All we know is "it can absorb ninjutsu" but that doesn't mean much since we've never seen it. So saying that Daikdan can pretty much counter everything when we've seen jackshit from it is a terrible argument.
> 
> Shatter bedrock and tear apart a cave, and nearly kill Chiyo and Sakura.
> 
> ...



I didn't say everything I said iron sand which so happens to have chakra in it. so no reason the mechanics of daikodan shouldn't work. esp when satetsu is at such a level a mere chakra shield can block it

lol shatter bedrock oh wow how impressive  sakura punch can shatter bedrock yet no move a fucking juubling.

it absorbs the flying iron sand that got blocked by a hypless not worth mentioning kankuro level defence.

then u can argue with urself. we all read the manga if most come up with a conclusion we cant all be wrong and u right


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> @Icegaze So basically, your entire argument is that Kisame can easily counter all of Sasori's greatest techniques due to a technique with little hype and no feats whatsoever. He can get around his poison even if he is cut because it wont do anything until it kills you after three days, even though the Manga showed that it starts heavily effecting you mere seconds after exposure. He can also completely ignore it underwater, even when near Satetsu because all of the poison will quickly disperse through the water (that Kisame is in) and not affect him at all because it will all go away. But the greatest part, is that since he has more speed and superior reflexes compared to Sakura he can automatically dodge and evade all of Sasori's attacks with ease. Even though Sakura's ability to avoid them revolved almost entirely around Chiyo (who knew how to counter Sasori's fighting style and was controlling Sakura's movements), and her evasive training as a medical-nin (both things Kisame lacks.) Good job, you've answered next to nothing and have presented me with a horrendous and nonsensical argument.



 and ur argument is I like sasori so I am going to dismiss the mechanics of a jutsu described to directly counter ninjutsu which iron sand is

other brilliant argument is trying to hype sakura who again could not avoid kabuto flying butt. and could read sasori moves

yet kisame who is much faster and has better reactions is to be defenceless.  how comical

chiyo was not only able to dodge sasori attacks but control sakura to dodge them for a time. that's the level sasori was at, cant even hit a target half distracted


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## Ishmael (Jun 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Not for long, I'm catching up real soon.



Lol


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 7, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't care how many people agree that he wins, if they don't provide good arguments then what they all agree on is meaningless.


Exactly.



Isaiah13000 said:


> @Icegaze So basically, your entire argument is that Kisame can easily counter all of Sasori's greatest techniques due to a technique with little hype and no feats whatsoever. He can get around his poison even if he is cut because it wont do anything until it kills you after three days, even though the Manga showed that it starts heavily effecting you mere seconds after exposure. He can also completely ignore it underwater, even when near Satetsu because all of the poison will quickly disperse through the water (that Kisame is in) and not affect him at all because it will all go away. But the greatest part, is that since he has more speed and superior reflexes compared to Sakura he can automatically dodge and evade all of Sasori's attacks with ease. Even though Sakura's ability to avoid them revolved almost entirely around Chiyo (who knew how to counter Sasori's fighting style and was controlling Sakura's movements), and her evasive training as a medical-nin (both things Kisame lacks.) Good job, you've answered next to nothing and have presented me with a horrendous and nonsensical argument.


My point exactly, especially the bits I highlighted in red.

And people are also seeming to forget that Sasori was portrayed as a rival to Orochimaru. Kisame ran away from Jiriaya in Part 1 (Jiraiya almost killed him) and Kisame wanked Orochimaru in Part 2 so if anything from that alone we can deduce who is stronger. The feats argument is everything myself and @Isaiah13000 said



UchihaX28 said:


> Okay, but Kisame's reactions being higher than Sakura's doesn't indicate that he can evade Satetsu as there were multiple different factors that enabled Sakura to do so.


This too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 7, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> And people are also seeming to forget that Sasori was portrayed as a rival to Orochimaru. Kisame ran away from Jiriaya in Part 1 (Jiraiya almost killed him) and Kisame wanked Orochimaru in Part 2 so if anything from that alone we can deduce who is stronger. The feats argument is everything myself and @Isaiah13000 said


>Jiraya almost killed him
>Itachi was the one who called Kisame to run

Kisame would stomp all over Orochimaru without Edo Tensei dont kid yourself. Orochimaru cant do shit to Kisame.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 4 | Dislike 2


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2016)

Just saying neji would be a worse match up for sasori than Sakura was


She could not avoid Kabuto flying butt headed towards her


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 7, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> >Jiraya almost killed him
> >Itachi was the one who called Kisame to run
> 
> Kisame would stomp all over Orochimaru without Edo Tensei dont kid yourself. Orochimaru cant do shit to Kisame.


That's false, Orochimaru can very much defeat Kisame.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 7, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That's false, Orochimaru can very much defeat Kisame.



Orochimaru vs. Kisame was always debatable to me because while Kisame's chakra absorption is rather threatening, none of his lethal attacks should affect Orochimaru and Orochimaru can also disperse poison within Kisame's water.

 Besides, the fact that Hebi Sasuke killing Orochimaru was considered impressive to Kisame suggests that Orochimaru is a respected opponent for Kisame, even moreso because Kisame likely isn't aware of Orochimaru's White Snake Power.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 7, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Orochimaru vs. Kisame was always debatable to me because while Kisame's chakra absorption is rather threatening, none of his lethal attacks should affect Orochimaru and Orochimaru can also disperse poison within Kisame's water.
> 
> Besides, the fact that Hebi Sasuke killing Orochimaru was considered impressive to Kisame suggests that Orochimaru is a respected opponent for Kisame, even moreso because Kisame likely isn't aware of Orochimaru's White Snake Power.


I never said it'd be a walk in the park, but in terms of his overall portrayal Orochimaru has always been a stronger character since even Part 1. Kisame has always held Orochimaru in higher regard than himself, and Orochimaru can effectively deal with most of his arsenal anyway. Which is why I was refuting the ridiculous notion that "Kisame would stomp all over Orochimaru" because that's an extremely erroneous statement.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 7, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I never said it'd be a walk in the park, but in terms of his overall portrayal Orochimaru has always been a stronger character since even Part 1. Kisame has always held Orochimaru in higher regard than himself, and Orochimaru can effectively deal with most of his arsenal anyway. Which is why I was refuting the ridiculous notion that "Kisame would stomp all over Orochimaru" because that's an extremely erroneous statement.



 I can agree with most of that.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 7, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> >Jiraya almost killed him
> >Itachi was the one who called Kisame to run


Yes. He was no counter to Gamaguchi Shibari.
Doesn't matter, They both ran away. In fact Itachi > Kisame so that doesn't help his case.



> Kisame would stomp all over Orochimaru without Edo Tensei dont kid yourself. Orochimaru cant do shit to Kisame.


Are you being serious or just trolling?

Tell me how Kisame beats him. I'd very much love to hear this.

*Spoiler*: __ 












> Kisame would stomp all over Orochimaru without Edo Tensei dont kid yourself. Orochimaru cant do shit to Kisame.


In fact let me just pretend you never said this.
Like ... what is going on today? I never kenw Kisame wank was even a thing.




Isaiah13000 said:


> That's false, Orochimaru can very much defeat Kisame.


I doubt he could even beat the Nerfed Orochimaru that fought KN4 (call me when Kisame learns how to use KN4 Bijuudama, @OneSimpleAnime ) let alone Prime Orochimaru with all his hand-seal requiring jutsu (Curse Mark, Hebi Kuchiyose, Gogyo Fuin, Edo Tensei, Kanashibari no Jutsu)



Isaiah13000 said:


> I never said it'd be a walk in the park, but in terms of his overall portrayal Orochimaru has always been a stronger character since even Part 1. Kisame has always held Orochimaru in higher regard than himself, and Orochimaru can effectively deal with most of his arsenal anyway. Which is why I was refuting the ridiculous notion that "Kisame would stomp all over Orochimaru" because that's an extremely erroneous statement.


It would be a walk in the park. Someone weaker than Prime Orochimaru (or Part 1 Orochimaru if you prefer to call him that) had the capacity to defeat a restricted Pain. How is Kisame even giving him the time of day, by feats alone let alone his portrayal.

Daikodan can be blocked by Rashomon, Manda laughs at Water Dome ... no, Aoda ... no, San Kyodaija will be enough. Orochimaru is superior in CQC (Hand-held Kusanagi/Projectile Kusanagi/Extending Kusanagi/Telekinetic Kusanagi/Seneijashu/Sojasosai/Poison/Kanashibari no Jutsu/Sakki/Nan no Kaizo/Gogyo Fuin/Curse Mark)

Honestly, Orochimaru is the one whose gonna stomp. I dont blame you @OneSimpleAnime. As your name suggests, you are very simple, maybe in mind too. And you probably forgot to read the manga. You're not the only one who has forgotten about Orochimaru's arsenal believe me.



UchihaX28 said:


> Orochimaru vs. Kisame was always debatable to me because while Kisame's chakra absorption is rather threatening, none of his lethal attacks should affect Orochimaru and Orochimaru can also disperse poison within Kisame's water.
> 
> Besides, the fact that Hebi Sasuke killing Orochimaru was considered impressive to Kisame suggests that Orochimaru is a respected opponent for Kisame, even moreso because Kisame likely isn't aware of Orochimaru's White Snake Power.


Exactly. And by the way, Orochimaru doesn't wear chakra like a second pair of clothes like Jinchuriki do chakra absorption doesn't mean a lot here. Kisame can come into CQC if he wants to but all that's gonna happen is this.


*Spoiler*: __ 












@OneSimpleAnime, I don't mean to insult you, but Kisame > Orochimaru is probably the stupidest thing i've heard in the NBD (and believe me, I've heard some shit in my time here). Please read the manga. I'm not gonna insult you because I can see you don't know the manga well, but read it so we can have intellectual debates in the future.

This is funny to me, because @HandfullofNaruto will remember when we were discussing some match ups, and we talked about kisame vs Orochimaru and I was like "oh its that thread that always comes up in the BD if it ever comes up ill just write an essay to shut Kisame fans up" and lol, its not a thread, but the argument has come up again.

Anyway, Orochimaru slams Kisame Mid-Diff, maybe even high end of Low Diff since Kisame hasn't got anything to scratch Orochimaru let alone defeat him. He will probably kill him before Water Dome and all that is even relevant, but if it does come out, he leaks poison and summons San Kyodaija to escape. Kisame dies. Manda/Aoda don't even have to get out of bed for this.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 7, 2016)

Id love to watch Orochimaru try to not drown when Kisame fuses with Samehada and uses the water dome. In that scan you posted Deidara said he wanted to kill him so does that mean Deidara >= Orochimaru? He sure as hell didnt praise him.

Kisame could beat down B who couldnt go bijuu mode and captured the 4 tails himself. Id love to see Orochimaru replicate that. Orochimaru's snakes arent gonna do jack squat because Kisame is a physical powerhouse and can also just swarm him with 100 sharks to beat the shit out of him.

>Nothing to scratch Orochimaru
>could hurt B and Guy
yeaaaaa sureeee

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 7, 2016)

I don't see any good arguments here coming from Kisame fanboys.

 The common argument such as Kisame drowning his opponent and absorbing their chakra is fairly decent because it's actually an effective strategy against a lot of fighters, but you're deliberately ignoring the fact that not only was Kisame portrayed at a level where he would just neg anyone with only one of his techniques, but we're forgetting that poison is literally a good counter against Kisame and prevents him from taking advantage of Suiton to disarm his opponent.

 When we take into consideration how Kisame with his WaterDome, struggled to fend off Roshi who wasn't even a Perfect Jin despite the fact that Kisame's abilities are well catered towards fighting Jinchuuriki, it makes his portrayal somewhat worse. Kisame is strong, but he's not at the level where he'd wipe the floor with the Sannin, especially Orochimaru. The Sannin were respected by Kisame (hence why he was impressed when someone killed Orochimaru) and the Sannin were very well respected by Obito and Pain. Sick Itachi who was portrayed to be below Pain was depicted as being Kisame's superior as well. The Sannin were the very pinnacle of strength before individuals such as Pain were ever shown in the manga.

 Kisame's not on the level where he's far above the Sannin. He might beat Jiraiya or Tsunade based on match-ups, but in overall strength, he's not far above the Sannin where he'd wipe the floor with any of them honestly.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 7, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Id love to watch Orochimaru try to not drown when Kisame fuses with Samehada and uses the water dome. In that scan you posted Deidara said he wanted to kill him so does that mean Deidara >= Orochimaru? He sure as hell didnt praise him.


 I'd love to see what Kisame will do when right after his water dome takes affect, Orochimaru floods it with ten thousand snakes all wielding the Kusanagi. Or he summons Manda and he swallows Kisame whole. 



> Kisame could beat down B who couldnt go bijuu mode and captured the 4 tails himself. Id love to see Orochimaru replicate that. Orochimaru's snakes arent gonna do jack squat because Kisame is a physical powerhouse and can also just swarm him with 100 sharks to beat the shit out of him.


 Dude, Orochimaru couldn't replicate that as easily because his abilities aren't nearly as well-suited for dealing with Jinchuriki like Kisame's are. There's something called match-ups, just because character A can beat characters B and C, and character D can't, doesn't mean character D can't beat character A. It's more complex than that.



> >Nothing to scratch Orochimaru
> >could hurt B and Guy
> yeaaaaa sureeee


 Orochimaru is far more durable than either B and Guy, you need to come up with better arguments than this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 7, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I'd love to see what Kisame will do when right after his water dome takes affect, Orochimaru floods it with ten thousand snakes all wielding the Kusanagi. Or he summons Manda and he swallows Kisame whole.


Id love to see those snakes or Manda actually hit Kisame who can swim faster than fucking V2 B



Isaiah13000 said:


> Orochimaru is far more durable than either B and Guy, you need to come up with better arguments than this.


Orochimaru is not more durable then B 
Base B shat all over MS Sasuke and tanked a kick from him like it was nothing. Base B also overpowered A


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 7, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Id love to see those snakes or Manda actually hit Kisame who can swim faster than fucking V2 B


 Who said V2 B can swim fast to begin with? They'd fill up the entire dome, so Kisame really has no where to go.




> Orochimaru is not more durable then B
> Base B shat all over MS Sasuke and tanked a kick from him like it was nothing. Base B also overpowered A


 Are you trolling right now? Orochimaru withstood being roasted alive, a direct punch to the face from Tsunade while he was in a badly weakened state, survived getting clawed and chucked across a forest by KN3 Naruto while in a badly weakened state, *survived getting cut in half by KN4 Naruto and reattached himself and kept fighting in a *_*badly weakened state*_, getting his head almost chopped off, has incredible regenerative abilities, and has shown the ability to barf up a new body that is fully healed from the damage his previous body takes. Please stop trolling right now, this isn't even arguable. Orochimaru is one of the hardest to kill and most durable characters in the entire series, and is above Guy and B in that department.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 7, 2016)

He isnt durable, he is just very good at attaching himself and recovering from shit. He isnt going to be doing that a lot when Samehada or Daikodan are ripping him apart and stealing his chakra.

Getting cut in half and not dying is not a durability feat


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 7, 2016)

Orochimaru tanked a Susano'o blade straight to the gut and literally laughed it off. He is one of the most resilient ninjas in the manga by far.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He isnt durable, he is just very good at attaching himself and recovering from shit. He isnt going to be doing that a lot when Samehada or Daikodan are ripping him apart and stealing his chakra.
> 
> Getting cut in half and not dying is not a durability feat


You are clearly a troll, and I can't believe people are still mentioning Daikodan when we haven't seen shit from it at all and it has next to no hype. Samehada wont be shredding Orochimaru a part and ripping out all his chakra, he doesn't have a massive chakra cloak on him so his chakra wont be striped away so easily. Not to mention he has the Sword of Kunsagi which will bisect and probably kill Samehada considering it hurt Enma who was as hard as diamond and considered adamantine. Orochimaru literally has counters to his whole arsenal.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Orochimaru tanked a Susano'o blade straight to the gut and literally laughed it off. He is one of the most resilient ninjas in the manga by far.


learn what a durability feat is. He is resilient as fuck sure, but getting cut in half and stabbed doesnt prove how durable he is. I mention Daikodan because it is Kisame's best jutsu without Samehada and is >>his regular sharks that could knock Guy around

Samehada can steal chakra through contact, it doesnt just take away chakra cloaks or whatever and it drains chakra really fucking fast. Kusanagi isnt going to break Samehada.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 8, 2016)

All right and I fail to see the relevance of that when his resilience and recovery rate is what enables him to survive a large variety of lethal attacks.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

Because if Samehada hits him or Daikodan hits him its going to take away a lot of his chakra that lets him recover


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Because if Samehada hits him or Daikodan hits him its going to take away a lot of his chakra that lets him recover


Show me a scan of Samehada rapidly taking away large portions of chakra from someone who isn't wearing a giant chakra cloak. Show me a scan of what Daikodan is actually capable of, and then I'll concede.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Show me a scan of Samehada rapidly taking away large portions of chakra from someone who isn't wearing a giant chakra cloak. Show me a scan of what Daikodan is actually capable of, and then I'll concede.


Samehada drained chakra from Kisame when it left him to go to B and he forced it to drain chakra from B earlier too.

Daikodan was said to absorb chakra and is Kisame's greatest water style jutsu besides his bigass dome. It should at least be fucking comparable to Samehada considering he thought it would be enough for 7th gate Guy and Hirudora


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Because if Samehada hits him or Daikodan hits him its going to take away a lot of his chakra that lets him recover



 No amount of durability would help you withstand something that's meant to absorb your chakra.

 To be honest, I don't think Daikodan can counter Yamata alone due to its sheer size and strength.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

Yamata is a problem but Kisame is a chakra monster and can spam enough shit and drain enough chakra from Orochimaru over time to win.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I don't see any good arguments here coming from Kisame fanboys.


Lool me neither. @OneSimpleAnime I think you should stop now. After saying Bee is more durable than Orochimaru (who took a direct punch to the face from Tsunade/KN3 Naruto, and tanked the reduced blast of a KN4 Menacing Ball), I don't think I can ever take you seriously again.


> Kisame's not on the level where he's far above the Sannin. He might beat Jiraiya or Tsunade based on match-ups, but in overall strength, he's not far above the Sannin where he'd wipe the floor with any of them honestly.


He isn't touching a single Sannin. He already claimed inferiority to the Toad Sage. Jiraiya one-moves him with Gamaguchi Shibari/Yomi Numa/Yatai Kuzushi/Gama Yuendan. Tsunade runs up to him and punches him. Her punch > Raikage's punch and V1 Bee would have killed Kisame with lariat if not for regeneration, which he had cos there was a Bijuu cloak to absorb. He won't have this advantage against Tsunade. Like Orochimaru said to Kabuto, "one hit is enough to end your life".


OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yamata is a problem but Kisame is a chakra monster and can spam enough shit and drain enough chakra from Orochimaru over time to win.


Stop it. Kisame (bar Daikodan) hasn't even shown a jutsu which can take care of San Kyodaija, yet you are arguing about Yamata. Yamata isn't going to be used/will it be necessary here. Orochimaru poisons him, uses Kusanagi, summons a Boss Snake, uses Curse Mark, Gogyo Fuin - you take your pick.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Stop it. Kisame (bar Daikodan) hasn't even shown a jutsu which can take care of San Kyodaija, yet you are arguing about Yamata. Yamata isn't going to be used/will it be necessary here. Orochimaru poisons him, uses Kusanagi, summons a Boss Snake, uses Curse Mark, Gogyo Fuin - you take your pick.


I dont know what San Kyodaija is. Say what it is in english.

How is Orochimaru poisoning him? How is Kusanagi gonna break Samehada? How does Orochimaru hit him with a curse mark? What is Manda gonna do when he has Kisame cutting into him and stealing his chakra? Kisame isnt fucking slow. He could react to V2 B


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I dont know what San Kyodaija is. Say what it is in english.


San Kyodaija = Three Giant Snakes/Colossal Serpents Trio. It's those snakes that were easily taller than the city of Konoha.




> How is Orochimaru poisoning him?



*Spoiler*: __ 












			
				DB1 said:
			
		

> Sōjasōsai no Jutsu: This forbidden technique is a murder-suicide attack, killing both the user and the target. The user makes a one-handed seal with both their hand and the intended victim's. Two snakes are then from the user's sleeve, biting both their wrists and killing them with deadly venom. When  used this technique against , he replaced himself with a clone to avoid harm, leaving Anko unable to finish the technique.
> Which would just be a simple murder since Orochimaru would be immunised to the poisons.








> How is Kusanagi gonna break Samehada?


Kusanagi > Adamantine/Diamond. Ask Enma if you don't believe me.



> How does Orochimaru hit him with a curse mark?


Like this



> What is Manda gonna do when he has Kisame cutting into him and stealing his chakra? Kisame isnt fucking slow. He could react to V2 B


Kisame is not touching Manda. He gets swallowed. Cutting into who? What are you actually talking about? You know Kisame is smaller than Manda's eyeball right?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yamata is a problem but Kisame is a chakra monster and can spam enough shit and drain enough chakra from Orochimaru over time to win.


 
 If Gamabunta withstood a Futon from Shukaku, then someone physically stronger than Gamabunta should withstand Daikodan IMO.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

How is Orochimaru going to hit him? Kisame isnt slow and this is a 1v1. He has more than enough strength to break out of Orochimaru's snake holds or whatever.

We dont know if Orochimaru can use the 3 serpents on his own since it took a group of ninja doing some kind of ritual to summon it IIRC. Kisame has his sharks and also can make water clones to trap Orochimaru in a water prison which is GG


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> If Gamabunta withstood a Futon from Shukaku, then someone physically stronger than Gamabunta should withstand Daikodan IMO.


I dont think it would take him down in one shot but Kisame has way more stamina and power to throw around than Orochimaru does.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I dont think it would take him down in one shot but Kisame has way more stamina and power to throw around than Orochimaru does.



 Potentially, but that's still highly debatable. It really depends if Kisame can constantly absorb Orochimaru's chakra which i believe personally, will be difficult for him to do so.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Potentially, but that's still highly debatable. It really depends if Kisame can constantly absorb Orochimaru's chakra which i believe personally, will be difficult for him to do so.


30% Kisame could make a lake, fight 4 people, make 3 water clones and use 3 water prisons and could send sharks after Guy all without looking exhausted in the slightest. He's compared to a bijuu with how much chakra he has and IIRC Neji said he had even more chakra than Naruto only at 30%

the dude has a lot of fucking stamina and Samehada absorbs through contact with things or chakra


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> 30% Kisame could make a lake, fight 4 people, make 3 water clones and use 3 water prisons and could send sharks after Guy all without looking exhausted in the slightest. He's compared to a bijuu with how much chakra he has and IIRC Neji said he had even more chakra than Naruto only at 30%
> 
> the dude has a lot of fucking stamina and Samehada absorbs through contact with things or chakra



 I'll agree that Kisame does likely have more Stamina, but Orochimaru's is pretty high too considering he has the capacity to absorb Natural Energy and possesses the White Snake's Power which has regenerative properties. Orochimaru's techniques also do not cover as large of a scale, so if Orochimaru can keep Kisame at bay, he could potentially outlast him.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'll agree that Kisame does likely have more Stamina, but Orochimaru's is pretty high too considering he has the capacity to absorb Natural Energy and possesses the White Snake's Power which has regenerative properties. Orochimaru's techniques also do not cover as large of a scale, so if Orochimaru can keep Kisame at bay, he could potentially outlast him.


Orochimaru really doesnt have much to keep Kisame at bay and even if he does it wont work for long. Orochimaru has never shown SM and his body was never strong enough for it. White Snake cant heal Orochimaru if Kisame cuts his head off/in half


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Orochimaru really doesnt have much to keep Kisame at bay and even if he does it wont work for long. Orochimaru has never shown SM and his body was never strong enough for it. White Snake cant heal Orochimaru if Kisame cuts his head off/in half



 He's got Senjutsu that can immobilize Kisame, thousands of Snakes that can keep him at bay in CQC, Manda, multiple Snake Summons, and Yamata.

 I agree that Orochimaru could never obtain Sage Mode, but that wasn't the point. The fact that Orochimaru was implied to have been an Imperfect Sage suggests that he had the ability to draw in Natural Energy in the first place and that requires very high levels of Stamina.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

Would curse seals even work on Kisame with Samehada? Samehada could just absorb the chakra in it. Thousands of snakes get soloed by Kisame's sharks and snake summons are basically fodder unless its Manda.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Samehada drained chakra from Kisame when it left him to go to B and he forced it to drain chakra from B earlier too.
> 
> Daikodan was said to absorb chakra and is Kisame's greatest water style jutsu besides his bigass dome. It should at least be fucking comparable to Samehada considering he thought it would be enough for 7th gate Guy and Hirudora


 Irrelevant, since Samehada will die the instant Orochimaru brings out the Sword of Kusanagi, and Orochimaru has massive chakra reserves himself. Daikodan is irrelevant, it has little hype and literally no feats. Stop bringing it up, this is ridiculous that you have to rely on a featless Jutsu so that Kisame can beat him.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> How is Orochimaru going to hit him? Kisame isnt slow and this is a 1v1. He has more than enough strength to break out of Orochimaru's snake holds or whatever.
> 
> We dont know if Orochimaru can use the 3 serpents on his own since it took a group of ninja doing some kind of ritual to summon it IIRC. Kisame has his sharks and also can make water clones to trap Orochimaru in a water prison which is GG


 Neither is Orochimaru? Orochimaru is faster than Kisame, he held his own and kept up with a KN4 Naruto even while he was in a badly weakened state. He also has many mid-to-long range moves that can cover a large area pretty quickly, saying shit like "How is Orochimaru going to hit Kisame" is flat-out dumb. Just how lowly do you view the Sannin in general and why do you wank Kisame so much? Kisame literally admitted inferiority to the Sannin himself and said that whoever it is that put down Orochimaru, "must've been something else" due to how strong he is. Yet you continue to sit here and argue that Kisame will stomp all over the person he openly admitted inferiority to in both Part 1 and Part 2. You're denying canon facts. 


OneSimpleAnime said:


> Would curse seals even work on Kisame with Samehada? Samehada could just absorb the chakra in it. Thousands of snakes get soloed by Kisame's sharks and snake summons are basically fodder unless its Manda.


 Samehada will be killed, the seal would still restrict Kisame long enough for Orochimaru to kill him, and his thousands of snakes may be killed by Kisame's sharks but the rest of his snake summons aren't fodder and will prove to be a threat. Stop lying to yourself, Kisame is never beating Orochimaru.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 8, 2016)

Well this poll says Kisame will beat Sasori, so unless Sasori is <<Orochimaru.

Orochimaru is not faster than Kisame lol at that shit. Kisame was reacting to V2 B and could react to 7th gate Guy. Orochimaru didnt keep up with KN4, he got rag-dolled and bitchslapped by it.

Samehada isnt getting broken by Kusanagi. Samehada was fine after a punch from KCM Naruto, and could cut Itachi's fireball in half. Orochimaru's giant snake summon could be blocked and killed by part 1 KN0 Naruto, its god damn fodder. Manda is the only summon Orochimaru has that will be doing anything to Kisame.

Daikodan can at least be scaled to Kisame's other jutsu since it is his strongest tech so stop whining about it jesus.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 8, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Well this poll says Kisame will beat Sasori, so unless Sasori is <<Orochimaru.


 Orochimaru and Sasori are around the same level of strength, considering Sasori was confident that he could defeat him alone and Orochimaru and Kabuto viewed Sasori as a serious threat.



> Orochimaru is not faster than Kisame lol at that shit. Kisame was reacting to V2 B and could react to 7th gate Guy. Orochimaru didnt keep up with KN4, he got rag-dolled and bitchslapped by it.


 Literally the only reason Kisame did so well against B is because he kept sucking up his chakra to strengthen himself, while weakening B in the process, B kept fighting him directly like an idiot even though he kept losing more chakra, and wasn't able to enter Bijuu Mode because he didn't want to harm his friends. Also he didn't react to V2 B, V2 B busted his chest open and hurt Samehada before they could do shit. By the end of the fight, he also got completely blitzed and one-shotted by V1 A and V1 B.

He also didn't react to Seventh Gate Guy, like at all, he got one-shotted by Hirudora immediately and then got taken out with one blow the instant he moved his finger. He never fought Guy in taijutsu either, they used mid-to-long range attacks against each other. So your argument is pretty bad.



> Samehada isnt getting broken by Kusanagi. Samehada was fine after a punch from KCM Naruto, and could cut Itachi's fireball in half. Orochimaru's giant snake summon could be blocked and killed by part 1 KN0 Naruto, its god damn fodder. Manda is the only summon Orochimaru has that will be doing anything to Kisame.


  Also no, as you can see here and here that Samehada got a hole blown in it by V2 B. KCM Naruto isn't even that physically strong and Itachi's Katon also has no physical form.... these literally aren't comparable and are just flat-out stupid comparisons. Kusanagi is going to chop Samehada in half, and there is nothing that proves otherwise. KN0 Naruto didn't kill it either, and I wasn't even specifically referring to it. I meant all of Orochimaru's giant snakes as a collective unit, working alongside Manda to get the job done.



> Daikodan can at least be scaled to Kisame's other jutsu since it is his strongest tech so stop whining about it jesus.


 It doesn't really matter, Kisame is going to lose.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 8, 2016)

@Isaiah13000 said everything I was gonna say


Isaiah13000 said:


> It doesn't really matter, Kisame is going to lose.


My answer to @OneSimpleAnime's debates.
I could come up with loads of arguments, but in reality, all you need to do is read the manga.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Kisame being > Orochimaru would be nice, but it's simply a fantasy.

Well it's been fun guys, I'm sure this is the last time we'll ever see this thread again (referring to Kisame vs Orochimaru part of this thread). It's one of those ones that comes up all the time, but this time should be the last.

As @LAZLOLAZZING said, this thread died when Kisame fans started riding him and not proving any of their claims. Lol at a diamond cutting sword not being able to cut a sword that got burned by fire and was almost destroyed by a punch.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Well this poll says Kisame will beat Sasori, so unless Sasori is <<Orochimaru.


Using popularity fallacy eh?



> Orochimaru is not faster than Kisame lol at that shit.


So?



> Orochimaru didnt keep up with KN4, he got rag-dolled and bitchslapped by it.


Ragdolled how? He laughed at everything KN4 threw at him. If anything, he ragdolled KN4 with Extending Kusanagi. Don't make up lies to water down Orochimaru's feats as that's only going to make Kisame look weaker as he is still below the Sannin.


> Samehada isnt getting broken by Kusanagi.


Yes it is


> Samehada was fine after a punch from KCM Naruto, and could cut Itachi's fireball in half.


Ok. Kusanagi Blade is still > Adamantine/Diamond >>> Shark Skin


> Orochimaru's giant snake summon could be blocked and killed by part 1 KN0 Naruto, its god damn fodder. Manda is the only summon Orochimaru has that will be doing anything to Kisame.


Those were small snakes from the forest of death, which Naruto had trouble dealing with
I am referring to the ones that were taller than the city of Konoha, as well as Aoda and Manda



> Daikodan can at least be scaled to Kisame's other jutsu since it is his strongest tech so stop whining about it jesus.


No evidence lol.

Anyway, this Orochimaru/Sasori vs Kisame debate is over.

*Spoiler*: __


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 9, 2016)

You have no evidence Orochimaru can summon the 3 headed snake on his own and Orochimaru doesnt have Aoda. He also has trouble controlling Manda.

anyway its not a popularity fallacy, its called a consensus.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 9, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> You have no evidence Orochimaru can summon the 3 headed snake on his own


Part 1 Kabuto can summon 2 snakes at the same time, so Orochimaru most definitely can summon 3, don't be stupid

*Spoiler*: __ 







And for your information, they are three separate snakes.


> The snakes were brown in colour with darker -like patches all over their bodies. They towered over several structures in including the boundary wall of the village. Each snake wore a red scarf around the base of their heads. In the anime, these snakes are merged together towards their tails. They have yellow green-coloured eyes with a black outlining.





> and Orochimaru doesnt have Aoda.


Yes he does. What are you? An idiot? That's like saying Minato can't summon Gamaken, or Jiraiya can't summon Gamakichi lol. What desperate reaching. How can you summon the Boss Snake but not the ones below it, when Orochimaru has shown the ability to summon such snakes. Sasuke summoned Manda, and then later Aoda. By your logic Orochimaru can't summon the small white snake Sasuke used to shield Deidara's C1 bomb because he never showed it on panel. 
Don't be a fool. You're only making Kisame look weaker with your pathetic arguments. Orochimaru can summon any snake he wants from the Ryūchi Cave. Now focus on trying to disprove my points rather than cut down Orochimaru's arsenal, which you don't have the power to do. Anyway its not like he needs all these snakes to beat someone as useless as Kisame. One should be enough.


> He also has trouble controlling Manda.


Doesn't matter. The one time he called Manda to battle in the manga, he fought for Orochimaru regardless of any issues they may have had with one another in the past.

*Spoiler*: __ 











> anyway its not a popularity fallacy, its called a consensus.


Whatever. Orochi/Sasori >> Kisame. End of.
General agreement =/= manga facts. The general idea is that Itachi >>> Kaguya. Does that mean it is a fact? There is such a thing called wank. You of all people should know about that, seeing as you are doing it right now.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 9, 2016)

Itachi is just am joke at this point you cant even compare the "wank" for him at this point. Itachi solos is basically just a fucking meme lol

Kisame's sharks still maul any fodder snakes Orochimaru summons that arent Manda and Aoda. How is Orochimaru going to stop 5 water clones coming at him who are stronger than him and can use water prison and slice and dice his snakes with Samehada?


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## baski (Jun 10, 2016)

Wow this thread went off topic.

Anyway on topic I'd put Sasori higher on the ladder than Kisame. His hype and portrayal dwarf Kisame's, although Kisame's on-panel feats are better. Soloing a country and killing the strongest Kazekage are much better than beating Jinchuuriki one on one imo. A 1v1 matchup is a different case altogether and it would be hard to call. They're generally in the same tier and depending on the results of this ongoing debate, one is a bad matchup for the other.

That said, i cannot for the life of me understand where all this Sasori downplay is coming from? Kishi went to great lengths to show us how strong Sasori was, in addition to explaining in detail exactly how and why he lost to Sakura and Chiyo, and even then he won the fight at least 3 times. What i gathered from that fight is that noone else at that point in the series could've single handedly replicated what they did against him, and that it wasn't a representation of his true strength. I didn't ever once think "He lost to Sakura and Chiyo so he loses to .............."
I'm not even gonna talk about how much he had going against him in both of his fights cos its been done to death.
Sasori deserves more than he gets in the battledome. That's just my opinion though so feel free to disagree

Reactions: Agree 4


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