# Mubarak, you're fired!



## Vanthebaron (Jan 25, 2011)

> In demonstrations they say were inspired by recent events in Tunisia, thousands of anti-government protesters clashed Tuesday with police in Cairo and demanded longtime leader Hosni Mubarak step down from power.
> 
> Protesters gathered in front of the Interior Ministry building to voice their complaints about a multitude of issue, from a lack of government freedoms to long-term poverty.
> 
> ...


fuck people over enough and you'll end up like Vern Schillinger from OZ


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 25, 2011)

isn't mubarak siding with the US...?


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## I can mate (Jan 25, 2011)

Beat ya too it..



Perhaps they can be merged?


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## Vanthebaron (Jan 25, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> isn't mubarak siding with the US...?


over have the country is below the poverty line time for something to get done


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## Jin-E (Jan 25, 2011)

I see the US walking a tight tope on this. On the one hand, Mubarak has been a reliable partner and his ouster could(in contrast to Tunisia) open up the door for the Muslim Brotherhood. But on the other hand, the US cant claim to hold onto its democratic credentials by openly supporting Mubarak's dictatorship.

Basically, Mubarak gets what he deserves for holding back citizen rights for 30 years and the US in a difficult dilemma now because of them not putting force behind demands for Mubarak to implement reforms, aside from toothless lip service.


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## iander (Jan 25, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWr6MypZ-JU&feature=player_detailpage#t=77s[/YOUTUBE]

I wish the protesters good luck.  Hopefully Mubarak will not last much longer.


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## Megaharrison (Jan 25, 2011)

West doesn't really seem to understand the kind of powderkeg that's going to be unleashed if Mubarak falls, a democratic Egypt would be a disaster for everyone in the region and for the Egyptians themselves as sad as that is to say. While obviously everybody would prefer that everybody lives in democracy, the Lebanon, Iraq, or Gaza examples demonstrate what kind of instability can result from an Arab democracy. Both to itself and to everybody that has to be around it.

If Mubarak falls it's going to lead to the biggest catastrophe in the Middle East in recent memory, I just hope all these people preaching about FREEDOM realize that.


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## Jin-E (Jan 25, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> West doesn't really seem to understand the kind of powderkeg that's going to be unleashed if Mubarak falls, a democratic Egypt would be a disaster for everyone in the region and for the Egyptians themselves as sad as that is to say. While obviously everybody would prefer that everybody lives in democracy, the Lebanon, Iraq, or Gaza examples demonstrate what kind of instability can result from an Arab democracy. Both to itself and to everybody that has to be around it.
> 
> If Mubarak falls it's going to lead to the biggest catastrophe in the Middle East in recent memory, I just hope all these people preaching about FREEDOM realize that.



True enough, but i refuse to shed a tear if that old piece of crap and his playboy son gets booted the fuck out of Egypt.

Thats why it was so stupid of the West to unconditionally support Mubarak's regime. Mubarak cracked down on moderate, democratic oriented opposition while the Muslim Brotherhood ban isnt worth the paper its written on. Had Washington used tough love and conditioned its aid to Egypt depending on democratic reforms, civic reforms combatting corruption etc, we might have avoided this situation entirely or atleast severly reduced popular anger.

Instead, the same redundant and backfiring strategy is used. Support a illegitimate autocracy which is rotten to its core for the sake of "stability", until the anger on the streets boils over reaching a point of no return.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 25, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> West doesn't really seem to understand the kind of powderkeg that's going to be unleashed if Mubarak falls, a democratic Egypt would be a disaster for everyone in the region and for the Egyptians themselves as sad as that is to say. While obviously everybody would prefer that everybody lives in democracy, the Lebanon, Iraq, or Gaza examples demonstrate what kind of instability can result from an Arab democracy. Both to itself and to everybody that has to be around it.
> 
> If Mubarak falls it's going to lead to the biggest catastrophe in the Middle East in recent memory, I just hope all these people preaching about FREEDOM realize that.



i support the right of the people to choose their government, middle east or not.

this is a basic american ideal and would expect that others should have that same ideal.


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## Elim Rawne (Jan 25, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> i support the right of the people to choose their government, middle east or not.
> 
> *this is a basic american ideal* and would expect that others should have that same ideal.



That's why America is gonna fall.


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## Megaharrison (Jan 25, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> i support the right of the people to choose their government, middle east or not.
> 
> this is a basic american ideal and would expect that others should have that same ideal.



This is a basic American ideal? Strange considering American foreign policy doesn't seem to indicate it in the least. Fact of the matter is the world is more complicated, American leaders realize this and it's why no country really follows the ideal of democracy for everyone under all circumstances.

And spare me the abstract idealism, obviously what we want vs. what the reality is are two very different things. Democracy has been disastrous when it has been introduced suddenly in the Arab world, and Egypt will be no exception. At the very least it needs to be a gradual process, though in Lebanon this largely failed as well.



			
				Jin-E said:
			
		

> True enough, but i refuse to shed a tear if that old piece of crap and his playboy son gets booted the fuck out of Egypt.
> 
> Thats why it was so stupid of the West to unconditionally support Mubarak's regime. Mubarak cracked down on moderate, democratic oriented opposition while the Muslim Brotherhood ban isnt worth the paper its written on. Had Washington used tough love and conditioned its aid to Egypt depending on democratic reforms, civic reforms combatting corruption etc, we might have avoided this situation entirely or atleast severly reduced popular anger.
> 
> Instead, the same redundant and backfiring strategy is used. Support a illegitimate autocracy which is rotten to its core for the sake of "stability", until the anger on the streets boils over reaching a point of no return.



Oh of course Mubarak is a thug who I would probably be glad died if it wasn't for the catastrophic aftermath of such an event. However it should be noted that even the "moderates" in Egyptian politics such as El-Baredai still call for violence against Israel, which will risk inflaming the entire region. And keep in mind this guy is considered probably the most moderate figure in Egypt, I doubt he could beat out the Brotherhood.


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## iander (Jan 25, 2011)

The slaves were also much better off under their slave masters and the colonies much better off under their colonizers. All authoritarian rulers have their apologists.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jan 25, 2011)

iander said:


> The slaves were also much better off under their slave masters and the colonies much better off under their colonizers. All authoritarian rulers have their apologists.



I think a better analogy would be the pigs in animal farm who soon become indistinguishable from the old masters. Who exactly do you expect to take over instead of the current regime?

Dude, war with Israel will be the ultimate result of all this and it'll make Mubarak seem like the good old days.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 25, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> This is a basic American ideal? Strange considering American foreign policy doesn't seem to indicate it in the least. Fact of the matter is the world is more complicated, American leaders realize this and it's why no country really follows the ideal of democracy for everyone under all circumstances.
> 
> And spare me the abstract idealism, obviously what we want vs. what the reality is are two very different things. Democracy has been disastrous when it has been introduced suddenly in the Arab world, and Egypt will be no exception. At the very least it needs to be a gradual process, though in Lebanon this largely failed as well.



lol you really have a response for everything don't you, and in your response you are always right, it's hilarious really.  Your view on american issues doesn't really matter, since you aren't american, and let's just all be glad that's true.


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## iander (Jan 25, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> I think a better analogy would be the pigs in animal farm who soon become indistinguishable from the old masters. Who exactly do you expect to take over instead of the current regime?
> 
> Dude, war with Israel will be the ultimate result of all this and it'll make Mubarak seem like the good old days.



I expect that the choice of leadership belongs to the Egyptians not to what foreign powers want nor the doomsday scenarios they concoct.  Democratic reform should be supported not opposed.  The failed revolutions to which you are referring happen when powerful external and internal forces with no interest in democracy are allowed to fester unopposed.


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## Megaharrison (Jan 25, 2011)

iander said:


> The slaves were also much better off under their slave masters and the colonies much better off under their colonizers. All authoritarian rulers have their apologists.



Oh please I hate Mubarak just like any other Arab despot. However internal politics in Egypt and historical precedent demonstrates why sudden democratic reform would be a bad idea for both Egypt and its neighbors. You tried to implement your ideology of FREEDOMZ and Iraq and you would say that was disastrous, no? 

And you talk about democracy failing because of external and internal forces opposed to it. Well guess what, the Arab League is going to do everything in its power to stop democracy in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhoods ideology (which will win out in the end) is anything but democratic. 2 more reasons why an experiment in Egyptian democracy is doomed to failure, even by your own standards.

And if we're talking apologist I recall you heaping Evo Morales with praise as the best leader in Bolivian history despite some of his questionable policies. Why do you do this? Because you feel his good outweighs his bad, and that exactly what I feel here.

Not to mention that you have the most moderate figure in Egypt still calling for violence against Israel. We'll be the ones once again fighting and dying so you people can sit back and talk about how lovely "freedom" is. It happened in Lebanon and Gaza and it's about to repeat itself here. The West needs to learn that its idealism can be deadly for those it effects. 



			
				FapperWocky said:
			
		

> lol you really have a response for everything don't you, and in your response you are always right, it's hilarious really. Your view on american issues doesn't really matter, since you aren't american, and let's just all be glad that's true.



So according to your "logic", you shouldn't even be posting here because you're not Egyptian.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 25, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> So according to your "logic", you shouldn't even be posting here because you're not Egyptian.



childish.  

we're all in here talking about egypt, and i'm saying the egyptians choosing their own govt is ideal.  we weren't talking about american foreign policy which you turned the subject towards.  good try though.


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## Perseverance (Jan 25, 2011)

The Tunisians started this mass upsurge against middle eastern tyrant rulers. Brave people.


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## Zabuzalives (Jan 26, 2011)

But mega, i dont think supporting a dictator who keeps hatred of Israël as an outlet and scapegoat for the masses is a good thing. Eventually he Will be removed and now not only do you have an Israël haring population, but Also more against his supporters, the USA and their ideals/culture. They should be more selective in which dictator to support


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## Shinigami Perv (Jan 26, 2011)

Good. Hope Mubarak's days are numbered. 

Amazing that this all started with a 26-year-old Tunisian man who self-immolated in protest against government corruption. Would be nice to see this spread across the Islamic world. It may not throw Mubarak out of power, but it might make the appointment of his son impossible.

There are conflicting reports that his son may have fled Egypt. No doubt this will further embolden protesters whether it's true or not.

Democracy is always a risk. It's a risk in the USA, and the consequences of our 2000 election left thousands dead in Iraq who wouldn't have died if we elected Gore, among many others. I think you either have to accept the risk for all or none because there is always the risk that any populace will elect a disastrous regime. We may not have elected bin Laden, but the damage done from the Bush administration was a global catastrophe.


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## hyakku (Jan 26, 2011)

TBH, this won't end well for Egyptians if they oust this guy without even a frontrunner to head up their government, which they don't. I only see this leaving a power vacuum for more extremist groups to take over, it's not as if there's a significant Egyptian Democratic party.

Haven't read through the thread so I won't elaborate more until I have time to, don't want to spend time repeating myself if someone else already said it. As an American though, this is slightly troubling in the sense that it can only hurt our own interests. I really don't see any boon for us if this occurs, and in fact, it could result in more hostilities / war in the region which would obvioulsy be to our detriment. 

IDK, in terms of ideology I like some parts of democracy (more than any other type of government at least), so I can understand their optimism, but as one who places more concern on material interests, this is disconcerting.


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## Reckoner (Jan 26, 2011)

Wow, some people shouldn't even bother.

Why is Israel being mentioned right now? What's currently happening in Egypt has nothing do with Israel, US or any other country nor Egypt's external policies. It's really simple. Egyptians are fed up and have had enough. Food shortage, discredited elections, brutality by the police, media and internet censoring. Simple rights are what they want. They have asked for it for years but no one responded. This was their last option. Freedom is what they want. Freedom is what they'll get albeit not without a price. People have already died in the demonstration. Hosni Mubarak has been ruling the country for almost 3 decades, millions of the citizens haven't seen any other leadership but his.

Egypt has been under a "state of emergency" that allows Mubarak to suspend regular laws. Torture and brutality are therefore "legalised" and over 10,000 politicians who oppose the regime have been arrested and jailed.

The government is claiming the Muslim Brotherhood is behind this but really, all who are out are the youths, women and men fed up with what's happening. 

The US is obviously worried and taking sides with the Egyptian government and with Clinton's ignorant comment that the government is "stable". Mubarak and his filth are key allies to the US in the region and if he's gone, Egypt's relation with the US could deteriorate. 

I'd like to mention one more thing. Before Mubarak were Sadat and Nasser. Nasser was seen by many as a dictator just like Hosni is. The only difference is Nasser was a dictator who cared about his country and people and had not so good relation with the US whilst Mubarak is a dictator who doesn't give a damn about his country nor his people and has a good relationship with the US.

Finally, where/when did ElBaradei encourage violence against Israel? He said it is a threat to the Middle East due to its nuclear program.


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## makeoutparadise (Jan 26, 2011)

the plot thickens lets just hope no historical monuments get destroyed by rioters


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## T4R0K (Jan 26, 2011)

I can see why some are worried about Mubarrak's fall... 

I'll remind a lot of you children of the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979. The Shah's regime couldn't keep the people quiet, and it had a frequent record of human rights abuses itself. Therefore, you didn't only find Khomenei and the mollahs behind the Revolution, but also communists, secualrists, republicans (in the sense of people against a monarchy), people wanting democracy, etc... 

Actually, the revolution there "turned" Islamic. In the begining, I think it wasn't really. After the mollahs took power, many people that participated in the events against the Shah found themselves arrested by "allies of yesterday". People who excepted more rights or freedom got even less than under the Shah ! In many ways, Iranian society actually regressed.

And more than 30 yers later, we get Ahmedinnerkebab ! So yes, if the revolution of the Egyptian people fall into the "wrong" hands, the region could potentially get a second "Iran", this time Sunni, and rival to Iran... And it bodes no good...

In Tunisia, actually, the people seems to fight to not have their revolution "stolen" by military or religious or "external" agendas. That's why I think Tunisia is a pretext, not an example. I think Tunisia will only get better now, it really looks like it ! But the other "revolutions" wouldn't... They rely on something else than people just being fed up.

And Ben Ali, while terrible, yes, was rather toothless in comparison to all his neighbours...


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 26, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> Wow, some people shouldn't even bother.
> 
> Why is Israel being mentioned right now? What's currently happening in Egypt has nothing do with Israel, US or any other country nor Egypt's external policies. It's really simple. Egyptians are fed up and have had enough. Food shortage, discredited elections, brutality by the police, media and internet censoring. Simple rights are what they want. They have asked for it for years but no one responded. This was their last option. Freedom is what they want. Freedom is what they'll get albeit not without a price. People have already died in the demonstration. Hosni Mubarak has been ruling the country for almost 3 decades, millions of the citizens haven't seen any other leadership but his.
> 
> ...



first person to bring up isreal was mega, as usual, and the forum usual suspects followed up.  

anywho, i'm in agreement, sadly the forum members see a need to keep egyptians down.


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## hyakku (Jan 26, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> Wow, some people shouldn't even bother.
> 
> Why is Israel being mentioned right now? What's currently happening in Egypt has nothing do with Israel, US or any other country nor Egypt's external policies.





> ... US is obviously worried and taking sides with the Egyptian government and with Clinton's ignorant comment that the government is "stable". Mubarak and his filth are key allies to the US in the region and if he's gone, Egypt's relation with the US could deteriorate.
> 
> Finally, where/when did ElBaradei encourage violence against Israel? He said it is a threat to the Middle East due to its nuclear program.



You just answered your own question. Some of us have more interest in studying the international relations aspect of this situation and to uncover what ramifications this will have for our nations / politics. If you don't, thats fine, but don't ask a stupid question you obviously no the answer too.

T4rok's post will provide even more logic as to why people should be paying attention to this outside of the humanitarian aspects.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 26, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> The Tunisians started this mass upsurge against middle eastern tyrant rulers. Brave people.


Something in the back of my mind makes me think the CIA was behind that.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 26, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Something in the back of my mind makes me think the CIA was behind that.



they're behind everything


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## Megaharrison (Jan 26, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> Wow, some people shouldn't even bother.
> 
> Why is Israel being mentioned right now? What's currently happening in Egypt has nothing do with Israel, US or any other country nor Egypt's external policies. It's really simple. Egyptians are fed up and have had enough. Food shortage, discredited elections, brutality by the police, media and internet censoring. Simple rights are what they want. They have asked for it for years but no one responded. This was their last option. Freedom is what they want. Freedom is what they'll get albeit not without a price. People have already died in the demonstration. Hosni Mubarak has been ruling the country for almost 3 decades, millions of the citizens haven't seen any other leadership but his.
> 
> ...



This has everything to do with us, we border a country whose entire population randomly despises us on a level most Westerners won't even begin to understand. Mubaraks regime is the only thing keeping the country from becoming another Iran for us. You didn't see me do this for Tunisia for instance, as that genuinely had nothing to do with us as they're a harmless country far away. The rather historic peace between Israel and Egypt will be the first thing to go if they become democratic, and that will be the final nail in the coffin in the Middle East Peace process, if it doesn't result in a new major war.

And you see El Baradei supporting violence against Israel 

It's much easier for you people to support idealistic democracies when you're not the ones whose people are threatened by the blowback basically. We have no such luxury here unfortunately.


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## Ichi Sagato (Jan 26, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Good. Hope Mubarak's days are numbered.
> 
> Amazing that this all started with a 26-year-old Tunisian man who self-immolated in protest against government corruption. Would be nice to see this spread across the Islamic world.



My sentiment exactly. Sheer amazement. If the outcome is at all ideal (I.E a free, secular, and prosperous Middle East), the international powers will have something to be humbled about. Who would have thought that a modest vegetable farmer would save the world. I know, perhaps my statements right now are bit to 'fantastical'. I don't care.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 27, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> This has everything to do with us, we border a country whose entire population randomly despises us on a level most Westerners won't even begin to understand. Mubaraks regime is the only thing keeping the country from becoming another Iran for us. You didn't see me do this for Tunisia for instance, as that genuinely had nothing to do with us as they're a harmless country far away. The rather historic peace between Israel and Egypt will be the first thing to go if they become democratic, and that will be the final nail in the coffin in the Middle East Peace process, if it doesn't result in a new major war.
> 
> And you see El Baradei supporting violence against Israel
> 
> It's much easier for you people to support idealistic democracies when you're not the ones whose people are threatened by the blowback basically. We have no such luxury here unfortunately.



everybody's democracy is blowback to someone else's , it's ridiculous to think that _you _are entitled to representative govt while other people are not.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> My sentiment exactly. Cheer amazement. If the outcome is at all ideal (I.E a free, secular, and prosperous Middle East), the international powers will have something to be humbled about. Who would have thought that a modest vegetable farmer would save the world. I know, perhaps my statements right now are bit to 'fantastical'. I don't care.



Looks like there's more stuff you've got delusions about. This is more likely to make Egypt and its people less free (especially with the issues going on in neighboring countries and the past instances like this in the Middle East) than more free. 

And the phrase is *Sheer *amazement. I read over that six times thinking it was some phrase I didn't know because I thought "no one could have messed up that bad and not changed it".



FapperWocky said:


> everybody's democracy is blowback to someone else's , it's ridiculous to think that _you _are entitled to representative govt while other people are not.



Do you think if there was suddenly uproars in Canada or Mexico that people in the US wouldn't be worried about what this meant for relations? Do you think that the news in other parts of the world wouldn't mention the relations and the fact that those places border on the US? 

Why do you have to troll so constantly and badly.


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## Reckoner (Jan 27, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> This has everything to do with us, we border a country whose entire population randomly despises us on a level most Westerners won't even begin to understand. Mubaraks regime is the only thing keeping the country from becoming another Iran for us. You didn't see me do this for Tunisia for instance, as that genuinely had nothing to do with us as they're a harmless country far away. The rather historic peace between Israel and Egypt will be the first thing to go if they become democratic, and that will be the final nail in the coffin in the Middle East Peace process, if it doesn't result in a new major war.
> 
> And you see El Baradei supporting violence against Israel
> 
> It's much easier for you people to support idealistic democracies when you're not the ones whose people are threatened by the blowback basically. We have no such luxury here unfortunately.



First, it's not "randomly". They hate you for a reason. Do some research, you'll be surprised. I'm sure Egypt is not the only country that despises Israel or even the most. Try not to forget your neighbours, the Palestinians. I'm sure they do more. 

Another Iran for us? What a stupid comment it is. You guys, and many "Westerners" governments, seem to think and firmly believe that it's either Mubarak or the Islamists which is absolute rubbish, my dear. If you have been following the political movement in Egypt and the area like I have been doing, you'd realise that Egypt has a good number of brilliant politicians who are NOT Islamists or from the Muslim Brotherhood and care about their country i.e. not Mubarak. Have an open mind for once, will you?

You actually believed there was ever going to be a Middle East Peace? Get back to reality every now and then, please.

Linking me to an Israeli newspaper? Good move. Anyway, he did not encourage violence against your country. He supported the Palestinian resistance and said "the occupation understands only force." The resistance is a right to every country being invaded which is the case right now and he said nothing wrong, Israel only understands by force. 

"It's much easier for you people to support idealistic democracies..."

You people? Do you have a belief that any one who disagrees with Israel is an Arab? Do you think no other people outside the region hates your little government and their action? oooook.

"...when you're not the ones whose people are threatened by the blowback basically. We have no such luxury here unfortunately."

I could say the same about them on the other side too. 

This is becoming more about Israel than the original topic was about, Egypt.


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## Jin-E (Jan 27, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> First, it's not "randomly". They hate you for a reason. Do some research, you'll be surprised. I'm sure Egypt is not the only country that despises Israel or even the most. Try not to forget your neighbours, the Palestinians. I'm sure they do more.



Its the extreme passion and fieriness of that hatred that is shocking. The idea that Israel is behind anything that is wrong with society, even absurd notions of Israel planting sharks along the coast to scare of tourists. Another means for that hatred to display itself is that any Egyptian intellectual who advocates a more tempered policy towards Israel or who is perceived as pro-Zionist or has ever been in contact with Israeli's outside of official government sanctioned meatings faces social isolation, death threats, boicotts etc. Egyptian writers and novelists refuse to have their books translated into Herbrew, enforcing a total cultural boicott. Anyone who refuses to follow that is expelled from whatever artistic union he or she is a member of.

Tell me what have Israel done to Egypt _as a nation_ that justify this venemous bile? All the war suffering and territorial loses Egypt have faced has come as a result of their own foolishness, aggression started or provoked from Egypt, when they tried to act like the Pan-Arab "spearhead".
Of course, the fact that Israel has given back Sinai and the fact that Egypt greatly benefits economically from the peace treaty hasnt reduced that hatred. It's a matter of hurt pride and embarassment that is the root cause of the hatred, not out of any concern for Palestinian rights.


Like it or not, but Israel has legitimate concerns about this tumoltous period in Egypts period.


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## Megaharrison (Jan 27, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> First, it's not "randomly". They hate you for a reason. Do some research, you'll be surprised. I'm sure Egypt is not the only country that despises Israel or even the most. Try not to forget your neighbours, the Palestinians. I'm sure they do more.



There's no justification for that hatred. What is the basis? We hold none of their land and want nothing to do with them. We're in a state of peace with them. Is it Human Rights? Right, I don't see any raving hatred of the 40 or so countries in the world with worse human rights in the world then Israel in Egypt. Where are the conspiracy theories on Saudi Arabia releasing sharks into the Red Sea? 

And the Egyptians don't care about the Palestinians. Do tehy hate Jordan more then Israel for Black September, an act that against Pali's that is far worse then anything Israel has done? What about Jordan stripping Palestinians of citizenship? What about Lebanon for denying the Palestinians any kind of basic rights? Of course not, you don't see the same kind of hatred.

Egyptian hatred of Israel irrational and makes no sense. If it was about human rights or the Pali's, they'd hate many countries more. You don't see Egyptians hating Russia for its past actions against Chechen Muslims, which is far above anything Israel does in brutality, for instance.



> Another Iran for us? What a stupid comment it is. You guys, and many "Westerners" governments, seem to think and firmly believe that it's either Mubarak or the Islamists which is absolute rubbish, my dear. If you have been following the political movement in Egypt and the area like I have been doing, you'd realise that Egypt has a good number of brilliant politicians who are NOT Islamists or from the Muslim Brotherhood and care about their country i.e. not Mubarak. Have an open mind for once, will you?



Right, you don't really understand Egyptian society then if you think secular moderates are going to take power. They're the most conservative Arab society after Jordan and Yemen perhaps. I suggest you read "The Arabs" by David Lamb. You don't get that kind of government anywhere in the Arab world without it being a dictatorship.



> You actually believed there was ever going to be a Middle East Peace? Get back to reality every now and then, please.



I personally don't believe peacei s possible right now, no. However this will just make the situation even more tense. A new enemy to Israel's south will result in a more militant Israel and more confidence for Israel's enemies, which will inevitably lead to a new and devastating war.



> Linking me to an Israeli newspaper? Good move.



Israeli media is free, very self-criticizing, and major news organizations in the country are reliable.



> Anyway, he did not encourage violence against your country. He supported the Palestinian resistance and said "the occupation understands only force." The resistance is a right to every country being invaded which is the case right now and he said nothing wrong, Israel only understands by force.



Ok, you can try to justify supporting violence against Israel all you want, the fact is he still supports it. This will lead Egypt into disaster if he tries to follow up on these policies if he comes to power. 



> "It's much easier for you people to support idealistic democracies..."
> 
> You people? Do you have a belief that any one who disagrees with Israel is an Arab? Do you think no other people outside the region hates your little government and their action? oooook.



Except I didn't even mean Arabs at all. I meant Westerners hailing this. They tend to support "freedom" naively at any cost without any regard for the consequences. Just look at Iraq.


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## I can mate (Jan 27, 2011)

If this "uprising" is successful as some people hope its going to send the ME _further_ back into the dark ages. The ME is simply NOT ready for democracy and cannot even handle it. And the last thing the west needs(And other moderate nations) is another crackpot isalmist government getting established.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 27, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Do you think if there was suddenly uproars in Canada or Mexico that people in the US wouldn't be worried about what this meant for relations? Do you think that the news in other parts of the world wouldn't mention the relations and the fact that those places border on the US?
> 
> Why do you have to troll so constantly and badly.



whatever, mexico is already a war zone with military doing the policing, this registers to most americans as "keep illegals out" and that's about it.  As a matter of fact most southern neighbors have been in heaps of trouble for the longest time and it wasn't really a bother to us, even when their rulers turned despotic or the people elected someone unsavory. 

regardless of what you think of egypts turmoil, you are bound to accept it or you are a meddler.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2011)

I can mate said:


> If this "uprising" is successful as some people hope its going to send the ME _further_ back into the dark ages. The ME is simply NOT ready for democracy and cannot even handle it. And the last thing the west needs(And other moderate nations) is another crackpot isalmist government getting established.


Exactly, I don't know why people assume that it will go so well. Iran did this same thing and they basically won themselves a spot in the loony bin when it comes to governments.


----------



## sadated_peon (Jan 27, 2011)

If the people want democracy and are willing to fight for it then I say this is a good thing. 
It is trying to impose democracy on a people does not work. 

The issue I have if this is really a push for a real democracy, or instead a push by a vocal minority to establish a religious oligarchy.

Are they looking to have a constitution? Are they looking to establish the rights of the people? Are they looking to protect minorities, and keep the rule of law?

Or do they just want to depose their current government and set up one that is more bias toward their personal beliefs.


----------



## Blue (Jan 27, 2011)

It's unfortunate to say, but probably the best prospect for *long-term* stability in the region is for Mubarak to fall and the resultant Egyptian democracy to once again be ground to dust beneath Israeli boots.

The advantageous aspect of a (stable) democracy is that ineffective leaders are replaced, and any leader who starts a war with Israel could only be called cataclysmically ineffective. Of course, the chances of any Egyptian democracy being stable are low, but it's a step in the right direction.

Of course, people will die during this process. Thus is to be human.

And hey, maybe the stars will align and someone intelligent who'll promise war to get elected will instead be intelligent enough to sponsor peace.



> I meant Westerners hailing this. They tend to support "freedom" naively at any cost without any regard for the consequences. Just look at Iraq.


Perhaps it's naive, but I believe that over the course of time, a democracy always arrives at something approximating a reasonable course of action. Mistakes are made, of course. One of the first relevant things Proto-America did was declare war on England again. That ended poorly, and never again did we pick a fight with anyone who could roflstomp us.


----------



## Reckoner (Jan 27, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Its the extreme passion and fieriness of that hatred that is shocking. The idea that Israel is behind anything that is wrong with society, even absurd notions of Israel planting sharks along the coast to scare of tourists. Another means for that hatred to display itself is that any Egyptian intellectual who advocates a more tempered policy towards Israel or who is perceived as pro-Zionist or has ever been in contact with Israeli's outside of official government sanctioned meatings faces social isolation, death threats, boicotts etc. Egyptian writers and novelists refuse to have their books translated into Herbrew, enforcing a total cultural boicott. Anyone who refuses to follow that is expelled from whatever artistic union he or she is a member of.
> 
> Tell me what have Israel done to Egypt _as a nation_ that justify this venemous bile? All the war suffering and territorial loses Egypt have faced has come as a result of their own foolishness, aggression started or provoked from Egypt, when they tried to act like the Pan-Arab "spearhead".
> Of course, the fact that Israel has given back Sinai and the fact that Egypt greatly benefits economically from the peace treaty hasnt reduced that hatred. It's a matter of hurt pride and embarassment that is the root cause of the hatred, not out of any concern for Palestinian rights.
> ...



What is this I don't even

Regarding the sharks incident, citizens and guests on talk shows themselves have jokingly blamed it on Iran as well. Officials have not blamed it on Israel but have given reasons as to why the shark attack had taken place. Take a chill pill.

In case you didn't know (which I doubt you do), Egypt as an Arab country and along with many others boycott Israel some decades ago. After the peace treaty, Egypt and Israel state had economic and political relations. I'd like to point out, this was against the will of the people. That's why many of them don't like Sadat because he pushed to get to this treaty when Egyptians did not want to. So, even though there are relations between the two, the majority of them still boycott Israel. 

Seriously? Don't forget Israel and Egypt were at war. Own foolishness? Wow, looks like it's you who is a fool. Egypt and its people simply took back what originally belonged to them. You don't like it? 
For the record, Israel did not give back Sinai. Israel retreated after its defeat. The Egyptians fought, won and took it back. Get your facts straight. Using Wikipedia as your primary sources is not a good start.

Woah, hurt pride and embarrassment? On what basis do you make such pitiful claim? I have met Arabs and when asked about their hatred towards Israel, most if not all of them blamed it on the inhumane treatments Palestinians are getting from their invader. 



Megaharrison said:


> There's no justification for that hatred. What is the basis? We hold none of their land and want nothing to do with them. We're in a state of peace with them. Is it Human Rights? Right, I don't see any raving hatred of the 40 or so countries in the world with worse human rights in the world then Israel in Egypt. Where are the conspiracy theories on Saudi Arabia releasing sharks into the Red Sea?
> 
> And the Egyptians don't care about the Palestinians. Do tehy hate Jordan more then Israel for Black September, an act that against Pali's that is far worse then anything Israel has done? What about Jordan stripping Palestinians of citizenship? What about Lebanon for denying the Palestinians any kind of basic rights? Of course not, you don't see the same kind of hatred.
> 
> ...



Okay, you made me chuckle. I'd like to ask you a question then. How do you know and on what basis do you support your statement that "Egyptians don't care about Palestinians"? The Egyptian government MAY not care as much but the citizens themselves do. They had dozens of demonstrations when it was found out Egypt exports gas to Egypt for a price much lower than the original cost, when them Egyptians are more worthy of their own gas. When the Gaza war started, Egyptians pressured their government to open the Rafah Border Crossing to supply food, water and more to the Palestinians trapped in Gaza. 

LOL. "Anything worse than Israel has done?" ARE YOU SERIOUS? Okay. Let it sink in. Doesn't come much as a surprise however. It seems that the majority of Israelis view a Palestinian as inferior to them or worse-- not even as human but a mere ant that must be crushed by all means. Sadly, that's what's taking place whether you are in denial or not.

WHY, why are you bringing up other countries? This is diverting from the actual topic. 

Egyptian hatred of Israel is rational and makes full sense if you actually took the time and sat down to find out why. But you didn't. It seems like you just hear what the media feeds you and nod your head in agreement. 

So you agree Israel had and is still using brutality against people who are defenseless and are having their lands slowly taken away. 

HAHA NO. YOU don't understand the Egyptian society at all. I've lived there for a while and many of the Muslims there are moderate and peaceful. What's happening in Egypt as we speak is NOT the act of the Muslim Brotherhood, it's the act of YOUTH ACTIVISTS. Believe it or not, it's going to happen. 

Israel managed to make an enemy of every country in the region. Surely, it must have some sort of meaning to it.

Yes, Israeli media is as self-criticising as many US media.  

I'm not trying to justify supporting violence against Israel. You are such a close minded person by the way.

Don't get me started on Iraq please. 



I can mate said:


> If this "uprising" is successful as some people hope its going to send the ME _further_ back into the dark ages. The ME is simply NOT ready for democracy and cannot even handle it. And the last thing the west needs(And other moderate nations) is another crackpot isalmist government getting established.



Such ignorant people rooming the internet and I can mate just happens to be one of them. Just who are you to deny them democracy? Cannot even handle it? Right.
It's Islamist by the way. And once again, how do you even know it's turning out into an Islamist government? Let the people choose. Whether they choose them or not, it's up to them. Again, who are you to say what they should or should not have?

Such pretentious people you are.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 27, 2011)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> It's unfortunate to say, but probably the best prospect for *long-term* stability in the region is for Mubarak to fall and the resultant Egyptian democracy to once again be ground to dust beneath Israeli boots.
> 
> The advantageous aspect of a (stable) democracy is that ineffective leaders are replaced, and any leader who starts a war with Israel could only be called cataclysmically ineffective. Of course, the chances of any Egyptian democracy being stable are low, but it's a step in the right direction.
> 
> ...



must suck to be isreali, knowing your forefathers are all but guaranteeing you'll be fighting war in ur lifetime.  Thanks dad!


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## Blue (Jan 27, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> must suck to be isreali, knowing your forefathers are all but guaranteeing you'll be fighting war in ur lifetime.  Thanks dad!



Must suck to be Israeli, knowing your forefathers mostly died in the biggest racially motivated genocidal purge in history and even now every country in your region has both stated and demonstrated their desire to see you wiped off the map.

When a country is attacked by another country that they could very easily destroy utterly, the usual and expected response is utter destruction. Israel has been awfully restrained in their actions.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> Such pretentious people you are.


Does anyone else see the irony in saying this phrase like this?


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## siyrean (Jan 27, 2011)

Kuro, I'm fairly ignorant to this whole issue so i'm trying to learn more from these arguments but it seems you speak a lot but i don't really see you explaining your claims. it just seems, to me anyways, that you're saying "no, you're wrong."
 maybe it's a language thing...


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 27, 2011)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> Must suck to be Israeli, knowing your forefathers mostly died in the biggest racially motivated genocidal purge in history and even now every country in your region has both stated and demonstrated their desire to see you wiped off the map.
> 
> When a country is attacked by another country that they could very easily destroy utterly, the usual and expected response is utter destruction. Israel has been awfully restrained in their actions.



 mama africa sighs


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## Reckoner (Jan 27, 2011)

siyrean said:


> Kuro, I'm fairly ignorant to this whole issue so i'm trying to learn more from these arguments but it seems you speak a lot but i don't really see you explaining your claims. it just seems, to me anyways, that you're saying "no, you're wrong."
> maybe it's a language thing...



What claims exactly? If we are talking about historical events, then borrow a book from your library or something. Speaking of the current events, I'd suggest following The Guardian's coverage to have a picture of what's happening and why. The Egyptian government is trying to cover up what's actually happening and I'm astonished by the low coverage by many media institutes. The Guardian might seem more of a "neutral" source since directing to local newspaper sites might seem too biased for some, apparently.

People's tweets are doing the media's job.

I'm not explaining my claims as much as they are not explaining theirs.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> What claims exactly? If we are talking about historical events, then borrow a book from your library or something. Speaking of the current events, I'd suggest following The Guardian's coverage to have a picture of what's happening and why. The Egyptian government is trying to cover up what's actually happening and I'm astonished by the low coverage by many media institutes. The Guardian might seem more of a "neutral" source since directing to local newspaper sites might seem too biased for some, apparently.
> 
> People's tweets are doing the media's job.
> 
> I'm not explaining my claims as much as they are not explaining theirs.



 So there you have it, "I'm not justifying my claims, because they're not justifying theirs"


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## Blue (Jan 27, 2011)

Reading the Guardian is an excellent suggestion, and I'm not sure how anyone could come up with Kuro's exact brand of crazy from reading it. I'm guessing his time in Egypt polarized his opinions and he naively assumes that neutral sources will support them.


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## Reckoner (Jan 27, 2011)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> Reading the Guardian is an excellent suggestion, and I'm not sure how anyone could come up with Kuro's exact brand of crazy from reading it. I'm guessing his time in Egypt polarized his opinions and he naively assumes that neutral sources will support them.



I went there for a short visit. I'm not assuming anything. In the end, it's up to you or any one else to believe what they want to believe. My opinions are not polarised, I read from both sides and developed my own opinion on the matter.


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## Jin-E (Jan 27, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> What is this I don't even
> 
> Regarding the sharks incident, citizens and guests on talk shows themselves have jokingly blamed it on Iran as well. Officials have not blamed it on Israel but have given reasons as to why the shark attack had taken place. Take a chill pill.



Lolwat, rather than dismissing it as a wacky conspiracy theory, the governor of South Sinai essentially backed it.




> In case you didn't know (which I doubt you do), Egypt as an Arab country and along with many others boycott Israel some decades ago. After the peace treaty, Egypt and Israel state had economic and political relations. I'd like to point out, this was against the will of the people. That's why many of them don't like Sadat because he pushed to get to this treaty when Egyptians did not want to. So, even though there are relations between the two, the majority of them still boycott Israel.



Congrats for essentially paraphrasing what i wrote. 

What is the justification for this boicott, that even applies to leftist Israeli scholars who are pro-Palestinian? If they really care about Palestinian rights, wouldnt it make sense to open up channels too moderate, compromising Israeli scholars/intellectuals to work forward to an eventual reconciliation in this conflict? You didnt see the West boycotting liberal Soviet writers in the Cold War, because unlike the Arab states they had the ability to see the benefit of this exchange. Denying cultural exchanges between two nations allows misconcepts and stereotypes to live on indefinitely.

It strikes me as pretty childish and it offers serious questions about whether or not the Arab world is serious about settling the conflict and normalize relations with Israel.




> Seriously? Don't forget Israel and Egypt were at war. Own foolishness? Wow, looks like it's you who is a fool. Egypt and its people simply took back what originally belonged to them. You don't like it?
> For the record, Israel did not give back Sinai. Israel retreated after its defeat. The Egyptians fought, won and took it back. Get your facts straight. Using Wikipedia as your primary sources is not a good start.



Lol, read some history please.

Because Nasser acted like a buffoon, Egypt lost Gaza and Sinai. Sinai was handed back in exchange for the 1979 peace treaty. Egypt did not win the 1973 war. After initial gains, they were beaten back.

Anyway, the point is that this was a war of choice from Egypts side from 1948 onwards, not by necessity.




> Woah, hurt pride and embarrassment? On what basis do you make such pitiful claim? I have met Arabs and when asked about their hatred towards Israel, most if not all of them blamed it on the inhumane treatments Palestinians are getting from their invader.



So that's why they have no problems with Palestinian refugees being treated like shit in their own countries? But hey, its only wrong if infidels treat fellow muslims badly, right?

Do you even need to ask? In regards to Egypt, a nation who held great pride over its military gets asswhooped by a nation of refugees with a population ten times smaller. It was so embarassing that they had to justify it with the canard that the US joined militarilly with Israel in the 1967 war.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jan 27, 2011)

Egypt won the Yom Kippur War?


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## Megaharrison (Jan 27, 2011)

Kuroshitsuji said:


> In case you didn't know (which I doubt you do), Egypt as an Arab country and along with many others boycott Israel some decades ago. After the peace treaty, Egypt and Israel state had economic and political relations. I'd like to point out, this was against the will of the people. That's why many of them don't like Sadat because he pushed to get to this treaty when Egyptians did not want to. So, even though there are relations between the two, the majority of them still boycott Israel.



That desire to not have relations with Israel among the Egyptian people is completely irrational, is my point. There's no legitimate basis for it.



> Seriously? Don't forget Israel and Egypt were at war. Own foolishness? Wow, looks like it's you who is a fool. Egypt and its people simply took back what originally belonged to them. You don't like it?
> For the record, Israel did not give back Sinai. Israel retreated after its defeat. The Egyptians fought, won and took it back. Get your facts straight. Using Wikipedia as your primary sources is not a good start.



Lol, this is rich. Right. The Yom Kippur War ended with Israeli forces on the other side of the Suez Canal and the entire Egyptian 3rd Army encircled. 



Here's who held onto what when the ceasefire went into effect. As you can see, Israel actually _held onto more territory_ when the war ended, territory in Egypt proper. There was no retreat or great victory by Egypt, Israel retained the Sinai until Sadat accepted to make peace.



> Woah, hurt pride and embarrassment? On what basis do you make such pitiful claim? I have met Arabs and when asked about their hatred towards Israel, most if not all of them blamed it on the inhumane treatments Palestinians are getting from their invader.



This makes no sense. Why is there no hatred towards Jordan or Lebanon for their inhumane treatment of Palestinians. Why is there no hatred of the 40 or so other human rights abusers that are worse then Israel? Why is there no hatred towards countries which brutalize Arabs, such as Saudi Arabia and Syria? Are Palestinians special or something, transcending inferior humans?



> Okay, you made me chuckle. I'd like to ask you a question then. How do you know and on what basis do you support your statement that "Egyptians don't care about Palestinians"? The Egyptian government MAY not care as much but the citizens themselves do. They had dozens of demonstrations when it was found out Egypt exports gas to Egypt for a price much lower than the original cost, when them Egyptians are more worthy of their own gas. When the Gaza war started, Egyptians pressured their government to open the Rafah Border Crossing to supply food, water and more to the Palestinians trapped in Gaza.



The citizens clearly don't care either, or else there would be as much hatred towards other countries that abuse Palestinians greatly, such as Lebanon and Jordan?

And what is it about Palestinians that are so special anyway? Arabs in Syria have been treated worse then in Israel (see Al Hama), why don't they all hate Syria?



> LOL. "Anything worse than Israel has done?" ARE YOU SERIOUS? Okay. Let it sink in. Doesn't come much as a surprise however. It seems that the majority of Israelis view a Palestinian as inferior to them or worse-- not even as human but a mere ant that must be crushed by all means. Sadly, that's what's taking place whether you are in denial or not.



Correct, worse then anything Israel has done. I propose you read up on Black September. If we did that today there'd be a nuclear war probably, but Jordan got away with it pretty comfortably. 



> WHY, why are you bringing up other countries? This is diverting from the actual topic.



No it's not. Because if Egyptians hate a country based upon:

A.) Human rights
B.) treatment of Muslims
C.) treatment of Palestinians
D.) all of the above

then there should be multiple countries in Egypt that are also hated. Israel is not unique in categories A, B, and C.



> Egyptian hatred of Israel is rational and makes full sense if you actually took the time and sat down to find out why. But you didn't. It seems like you just hear what the media feeds you and nod your head in agreement.



It makes no sense. There's no legitimate reason to hate Israel. Again:

1.) If they hated Israel based upon human rights, they should also hate at least 40 more countries.
2.) If they hated Israel based upon treatment of Muslims and/or Arabs, they should also hate at least 30 more countries.
3.) If they hated Israel based upon treatment of Palestinians, they should also hate at least 2 other countries. Though the very fact that Palestinians are glorified so in Egyptian society would be rather strange in this respect. People in Yemen have it worse then Palestinians, Egypt itself has a worse standard of living then the Palestinian territories. The Palestinians aren't an urgent matter.
4.) If they hate Israel based upon land holdings, Israel holds no Egyptian land. Israel does not interfere or bother with Egypt either.



> So you agree Israel had and is still using brutality against people who are defenseless and are having their lands slowly taken away.



You can make this argument with lots of other countries, which Egyptians do not hate. Do you know how many people were displaced in the Algerian Civil War for instance? They were Muslims and Arabs too. Why no hatred of Algeria? (besides the football thing, which is unrelated)



> HAHA NO. YOU don't understand the Egyptian society at all. I've lived there for a while and many of the Muslims there are moderate and peaceful. What's happening in Egypt as we speak is NOT the act of the Muslim Brotherhood, it's the act of YOUTH ACTIVISTS. Believe it or not, it's going to happen.



Then you're in a state of denial regarding Egyptians. One of the common complaints against Mubarak is his secular policies. For instance, Western-style night clubs and legalization of alcohol. Again I should cite The Arabs by David Lamb as providing good insight into Egyptian society.



> Israel managed to make an enemy of every country in the region. Surely, it must have some sort of meaning to it.



Nobody but the Palestinians and perhaps Syria have any legitimate reason to hate Israel. Try to cite one reason.



> Yes, Israeli media is as self-criticising as many US media.
> 
> I'm not trying to justify supporting violence against Israel. You are such a close minded person by the way.



If you defend El Baradei's statements you are justifying it



> Such ignorant people rooming the internet and I can mate just happens to be one of them. Just who are you to deny them democracy? Cannot even handle it? Right.



I'm not talking about denying them anything. I'm Israeli and as an Israeli I have absolutely no interest in getting involved with the Arabs any more then we have to, I'm saying that sudden Egyptian democracy will be harmful to region.



> It's Islamist by the way. And once again, how do you even know it's turning out into an Islamist government? Let the people choose. Whether they choose them or not, it's up to them. Again, who are you to say what they should or should not have?
> 
> Such pretentious people you are.



It's going to turn out to be an Islamist government because that's what Egyptian society will inevitably turn to. In Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza, we see Arabs choosing more religious policies over secularism every time.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 27, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> That desire to not have relations with Israel among the Egyptian people is completely irrational, is my point. There's no legitimate basis for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



in summary, i can't tell you why you shouldn't hate isreal, but i can tell you why you should hate other people 

anywho off the topic of isreal, seems like yemen is having similar events.


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## Karsh (Jan 27, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> in summary, i can't tell you why you shouldn't hate isreal, but i can tell you why you should hate other people



In summary, why Egyptians have no legitimate reason to hate on Israel simply because of the reasons stated.


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## Elim Rawne (Jan 27, 2011)

Karsh said:


> In summary, why Egyptians have no legitimate reason to hate on Israel simply because of the reasons stated.



Let him be, he's just spamming and trolling.


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## Toby (Jan 27, 2011)

The potential for Egypt becoming a democracy is a completely random toss of the coin at this point. Unlike Tunisia, the people rebelling in Egypt are mostly youth. So in fact, if you look at the demographics, it makes more sense to compare it to the student protests in Iran.

Another problem here is that we don't really see a single political figure leading the uproar. Let's say they have a 'revolution', but if the people who come out on top are the opposition parties, the Egyptians may not be better off. None of them are after all very democratic (again, the proper parallel would be Iran) - and if that's what they want, they need to make one. 

But I'm just glad that this state is seeing some action. In fact, even if these uproars don't result in a regime change, they give Western countries more leverage - because now we have less of a reason to just give them weapons and billions of dollars in aid for no reason at all. We should have encouraged democracies there right after WWII while national self-determination was a political winning slogan, but we didn't, and now these people are flipping out. 

Any way, it puts our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in a nice perspective that will make Middle Easterners think differently.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 27, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Let him be, he's just spamming and trolling.



i'm on topic lame, so i suggest u do  the same, 
or the banhammer will fall, no not at all 
banhammer fails if your chums with the mods
everyone else is just a salted cod

Edit: hey mr toby, i'm being ignored by cafe moderators.


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## Toby (Jan 27, 2011)

Ignored? About what?

Edit: If this is about your reported post, I'm not going to do anything about it because you and everybody else you're entangled with here are being equally stupid.


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## Blue (Jan 27, 2011)

Toby said:


> Any way, it puts our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in a nice perspective that will make Middle Easterners think differently.


I don't get your meaning. Which perspective is that?



FapperWocky said:


> Edit: hey mr toby, i'm being ignored by cafe moderators.


Hardly an unwise decision, considering how far your opinions are separated from reality. Hinata is fat, and if you can't even get something that basic in perspective, you can hardly be expected to understand international relations.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 27, 2011)

Toby said:


> Ignored? About what?
> 
> Edit: If this is about your reported post, I'm not going to do anything about it because you and everybody else you're entangled with here are being equally stupid.



i'm highly disappointed and sort of but not really expected but held out for better.  maybe i should ditch the forum since only certain trains of thought are appreciated here.


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## Blue (Jan 27, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> certain trains of thought


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2011)

Toby said:


> The potential for Egypt becoming a democracy is a completely random toss of the coin at this point. Unlike Tunisia, the people rebelling in Egypt are mostly youth. So in fact, if you look at the demographics, it makes more sense to compare it to the student protests in Iran.
> 
> Another problem here is that we don't really see a single political figure leading the uproar. Let's say they have a 'revolution', but if the people who come out on top are the opposition parties, the Egyptians may not be better off. None of them are after all very democratic (again, the proper parallel would be Iran) - and if that's what they want, they need to make one.
> 
> ...



I think its a wasted effort trying to explain how this isn't just straight and clear a good thing. I mean I can see how it could be good, and I could see how it could lead to some much better government for the people, but it could easily go the other way.


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## Jin-E (Jan 27, 2011)

Video of a protester being shot....God knows whats gonna happen on Friday


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 27, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Video of a protester being shot....God knows whats gonna happen on Friday


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## hyakku (Jan 27, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> i'm highly disappointed and sort of but not really expected but held out for better.  maybe i should ditch the forum since only certain trains of thought are appreciated here.



If Egypt's revolts can accomplish this than thank the Muslim Brotherhood, Allah, and Jesus.


I'm calling after Yemen, some riots in Southern / Northern Sudan, Somalia, possibly Zimbabwe, and maybe Lebanon. Nothing will occur from most of them, except potentially lebanons. I'll revisit this thread if it turns out I'm right, otherwise, let's just hope fapperwocky is committed to the Egyptian cause as he claims and goes to educate others elsewhere.


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## iander (Jan 27, 2011)

If the Egyptian government has shut off the internet, they are clearly getting desperate.  If military units start turning on the regime, they are finished.


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## Zabuzalives (Jan 27, 2011)

Egyptians selective hatred for Isra?l purely stems from a huge bias against non-muslims. Its the fact non-muslim infidels are defeating and opressing muslims, arab muslims to boot, that gets them riled up. They Like to lie to others and themselves and bring up other excuses and justification but This is the core. For all the crying about islamophobia and discrimination against muslims i must say muslims are one of the most discriminating and biased group out there.....


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## xenopyre (Jan 28, 2011)

Zabuzalives said:


> Egyptians selective hatred for Israël purely stems from a huge bias against non-muslims. Its the fact non-muslim infidels are defeating and opressing muslims, arab muslims to boot, that gets them riled up. They Like to lie to others and themselves and bring up other excuses and justification but This is the core. For all the crying about islamophobia and discrimination against muslims i must say muslims are one of the most discriminating and biased group out there.....


When you get peoples  like Joe Biden and many like him in this forum supporting Mubarak just becouse he cares more about Israel's interests and well being than the interests and well being of his own people , dont you think that that will enroots the feeling that the western world is trying to hinder any real progress made by Arabs and muslims just to ensure their own security ?


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## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

What a reprehensible regime.

Worst is if they somehow ride this off, Obama and Clinton will carry on business as usual like the spineless people they are.


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## Zabuzalives (Jan 28, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> When you get peoples  like Joe Biden and many like him in this forum supporting Mubarak just becouse he cares more about Israel's interests and well being than the interests and well being of his own people , dont you think that that will enroots the feeling that the western world is trying to hinder any real progress made by Arabs and muslims just to ensure their own security ?



too bad this bias and discrimination is widespread and troughout history so you cant simply play the ""blame the west"" game. 

If Israel converted to islam before declaring their nation the results would have been completely different, and ofcourse christians and westerners have also their biases, it is currently nowhere near the level of what is commonly seen in Islam where vast majority defines himself as muslim first and foremost. 


but with our bad experiences with muslim democracy (Algeria, Iran, Gaza, Lebanon) its no wonder some put their own security concern first. 

For me, i think the Egyptians should get the chance. No one can predict the future.


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## Mael (Jan 28, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> Geez, people have a right to protest without being shot, this regime in power now is finished unless they are ready to dispense more brutality.



Tell that to Iran.


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## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

Pretty epic shots on Al Jazeera English


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## Deleted member 161031 (Jan 28, 2011)

> Protesters gathered after Friday prayers. Police used tear gas and water cannons to disperse the crowds, who responded by throwing stones.
> 
> People also took to the streets in the coastal cities of Suez and Alexandria.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12303564


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## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

That cop is sooooo dead.


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## Karsh (Jan 28, 2011)

I can understand both the strategical thought process of a futuristic outcome for the broader scope, and the intantaneous ideal. They both have pros and cons in their conception. I hope whatever the outcome will be, it will be for the good of everyone, not just Egypt, including their policies.

And Erik, that wasn't funny, if you were going for that kind of approach.


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

Karsh said:


> I can understand both the strategical thought process of a futuristic outcome for the broader scope, and the intantaneous ideal. They both have pros and cons in their conception. I hope whatever the outcome will be, it will be for the good of everyone, not just Egypt, including their policies.
> 
> And Erik, that wasn't funny, if you were going for that kind of approach.



I was not.

Though i believe he richly deserved whatever the crowd did to him.


----------



## Karsh (Jan 28, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Though i believe he richly deserved whatever the crowd did to him.



Shudders                               .


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

There's supposed to be a curfew from 6 pm(which is now) until 7 am next morning.

I have no idea how they will be able to enforce that...


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 28, 2011)




----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 28, 2011)

those people should be careful about marching across bridges, though that one looks pretty stable :S


----------



## iander (Jan 28, 2011)

There are reports of the military in Alexandria flashing thumbs up to the protesters rather than dispersing them.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 28, 2011)

iander said:


> There are reports of the military in Alexandria flashing thumbs up to the protesters rather than dispersing them.



If this becomes widespread, it will end Mubarak. 

Whoever is interested, here is al-Jazeera's coverage, which has some pretty amazing footage.


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Jan 28, 2011)

How long until the US starts ordering CNN to stop covering riots in Europe and The Middle East for fear that riots against Barak Obama could happen because of US citizens being unable to work and are unsure of their own future because of the situation the government and Financial sector have put them in.


----------



## Alien (Jan 28, 2011)

_Al Jazeera English: Unconfirmed reports the army and police forces have clashed in Cairo._

Heavy shit.


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

Alien said:


> _Al Jazeera English: Unconfirmed reports the army and police forces have clashed in Cairo._
> 
> Heavy shit.



You mean....As in the Army being on the protesters side?

If thats true, then Mubarak is screwed. That was his last trump card remaining.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 28, 2011)

Alien said:


> _Al Jazeera English: Unconfirmed reports the army and police forces have clashed in Cairo._
> 
> Heavy shit.



Yeah, I'm seeing on other websites people commenting that they saw the military in certain areas actually join the protesters.


----------



## Alien (Jan 28, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> You mean....As in the Army being on the protesters side?
> 
> If thats true, then Mubarak is screwed. That was his last trump card remaining.



Yeah

I should have cleared it up a bit.


----------



## Alien (Jan 28, 2011)

_"Egyptian Christians said they will guard the Muslims from the police while they on Friday Pray." Amazing solidarity. #Egypt #Jan25_


----------



## Zabuzalives (Jan 28, 2011)

its getting to the critical phase. Will the police and military use widespread lethal force on their fellow countrymen? Then this wil be repressed like in Iran.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 28, 2011)

Alien said:


> _Al Jazeera English: Unconfirmed reports the army and police forces have clashed in Cairo._
> 
> Heavy shit.



Well if that's true then this matter is said and done and day-after scenarios need to begin. Looks like I'm being called up to active duty in a few days then


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 28, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> How long until the US starts ordering CNN to stop covering riots in Europe and The Middle East for fear that riots against Barak Obama could happen because of US citizens being unable to work and are unsure of their own future because of the situation the government and Financial sector have put them in.


You do know that violates the first amendment? Not only that, that didn't happen during the Great Depression why would it happen now? 

Hellrasinbrasin, get the Obama hate off.


----------



## Perseverance (Jan 28, 2011)

GO ON EGYPTIONS, I SUPPORT !!!!!!!!!! 



Alien said:


> _"Egyptian Christians said they will guard the Muslims from the police while they on Friday Pray." Amazing solidarity. #Egypt #Jan25_



Nice, re-paying each other favours. Egypt government is defo screwed.



iander said:


> There are reports of the military in Alexandria flashing thumbs up to the protesters rather than dispersing them.



lmao


----------



## xenopyre (Jan 28, 2011)

Yeah it is only a matter of time now , hope that the US and Israel dont interfere and save him .

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## SAFFF (Jan 28, 2011)

I saw this on CNN this morning. Dude got hit head on by the military armored truck. If you don't get out the way "sucks to be you". Such a fucked up, third world mentality. I didn't know Egypt was still like this. I guess i'm astounded and taken aback by my own ignorance.


----------



## T4R0K (Jan 28, 2011)

Alien said:


> _"Egyptian Christians said they will guard the Muslims from the police while they on Friday Pray." Amazing solidarity. #Egypt #Jan25_



If Mubarak falls, the muslims that got help from christians better remember it and respect them as fellow egyptians. Else, that revolution would be wasted...

OK, I've been relativising the situation previously, fearing that what would follow Mubarak's regime could be more of the same or worse. But with more news like this, I'm starting to hope Egypt gets a brighter future for all of its inhabitants.

Disappoint me, Egyptians. Show me that you won't turn into another Iran.


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Jan 28, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> Yeah it is only a matter of time now , hope that the US and Israel dont interfere and save him .



Of course they will they can't afford to let anything happen to one of their precious allies. So who wants to bet on the fact that whoever wins this insurrection and suppression is going to attack the west or Israel for supporting the current regime or not acknologing the new regime.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 28, 2011)

There's no way (we) Israel will get involved directly or even indirectly, the current regime of Egypt is still an enemy, just one that leaves us alone outside of the political sphere. Moreover we have no desire to meddle in internal Arab affairs, their inability to run themselves is a problem we don't want to deal with. If we didn't get involved in the Palestinian Civil War we certainly won't get involved in this. Lastly our presence would only make things worse. Notice that our government really isn't saying anything about this issue.

So yeah, do I need to give anymore reasons? Quit the paranoia.

Anyway according to IDF Army Radio Egyptian APC's in Cairo are being abandoned by their crews. Have seen at least 1 pic of a Gypo Pegaso BMR APC abandoned in Cairo so far. Could be an isolated instance however.


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

Where is Mubarak now? 3 hours earlier he was supposed to deliver an imminent speach.


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Jan 28, 2011)

Maybe he's gonna deliver an imminent step down... "Maybe"


----------



## Ceria (Jan 28, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Democracy is always a risk. It's a risk in the USA, and the consequences of our 2000 election left thousands dead in Iraq who wouldn't have died if we elected Gore, among many others. I think you either have to accept the risk for all or none because there is always the risk that any populace will elect a disastrous regime. We may not have elected bin Laden, but the damage done from the Bush administration was a global catastrophe.



Iraq is a tough call to make, Saddam needed to go for all the genocide he unleashed against the kurds and others. Perhaps there might have been a different way to go about it, Bush knew that he needed to go, but sadly as a society we Americans would not have bought any other excuse than WMD's because we lack the moral conviction to see that liberating Iraq is worthwhile. 

Even if Gore was in office, there's still no way to tell that the operations against the Taliban in Afghanistan would not have lead him to thinking about a war in Iraq.


----------



## iander (Jan 28, 2011)

The US is apparently reviewing its military aid to Egypt.  They might be a little concerned with protesters finding tear gas canisters and other stuff that says "made in the USA".


----------



## xenopyre (Jan 28, 2011)

^^In Tunisia here we found tear gas made in Israel it's no biggy everybody knows the millitary ties between the old goverment and Israel  .


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 28, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> ^^In Tunisia here we found tear gas made in Israel



LOL this sounds like a load of internet BS, legitimate source for this?

Seriously, stop blaming us for everything. We don't care about Tunisia since the PLO moved out of there. At all.



> it's no biggy everybody knows the millitary ties between the old goverment and Israel.



Right, because it's not like we bombed a Tunis suburb under the old regime or anything.

Really, it's posts like these that make me worried about Egyptian democracy.


----------



## xenopyre (Jan 28, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> LOL this sounds like a load of internet BS, legitimate source for this?
> 
> Seriously, stop blaming us for everything. We don't care about Tunisia since the PLO moved out of there. At all.


I'm not blaming israel , they have the right to sell their weapons , and i didnt see them with my own eyes , some of my freinds saw , and i saw pictures of them on facebook i'll try to find them .



> Right, because it's not like we bombed a Tunis suburb under the old regime or anything.
> 
> Really, it's posts like these that make me worried about Egyptian democracy.


Actually it is well known that israel have ties with the old goverment knowing that thousands of Jews come every year in piligrimage to Djerba's synagogue


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 28, 2011)

Whether this revolution succeeds ultimately depends on how loyal the military forces are to the regime. If its loyal, than these protests won't get anywhere - just like Zimbabwe under Mugabe. If the military joins the protests than Mubarak is finished. However, if history is a guide than any liberty and freedom will be short-lived. Most revolutions tend to lead to regimes just as bad as the ones before. The French Revolution lead to the Reign of Terror, Pakistan's democratic governments eventually get overthrown by the military, Thailand's recent revolution lead to army rule, etc. Anybody who thinks that a liberal democratic state respecting human rights is going to rise from this mess is going to be disappointed.


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Whether this revolution succeeds ultimately depends on how loyal the military forces are to the regime. If its loyal, than these protests won't get anywhere - just like Zimbabwe under Mugabe. If the military joins the protests than Mubarak is finished. However, if history is a guide than any liberty and freedom will be short-lived. Most revolutions tend to lead to regimes just as bad as the ones before. The French Revolution lead to the Reign of Terror, Pakistan's democratic governments eventually get overthrown by the military, Thailand's recent revolution lead to army rule, etc. Anybody who thinks that a liberal democratic state respecting human rights is going to rise from this mess is going to be disappointed.



But the revolutions following the Berlin Wall in the communist countries were succesful. Today, most of these countries are democracies that are members of the EU or Nato or both.

Not saying that Egypt and Tunisia will be a Jeffersonian democracy here, but it wont necessarily be a failure either.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 28, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> I'm not blaming israel , they have the right to sell their weapons , and i didnt see them with my own eyes , some of my freinds saw , and i saw pictures of them on facebook i'll try to find them.



1.) "your friends facebook pictures" aren't a legitimate source.
2.) How the fuck can "your friends" tell what an Israeli tear gas canister is vs. American vs. Russian vs. fucking Swiss.



> Actually it is well known that israel have ties with the old goverment knowing that thousnd of Jews come every year in piligrimage to Djerba's synagogue



Evidence for this? Nearly all Tunisian Jews were forced out of the country in the 1950's and 60's.  

Moreover even if this was true, minor religious overtures don't overshadow the fact that Tunisia has no relations with Israel, does not recognize its right to exist, and supports political attacks on it regularly (see its voting in the UN).

Moreover, we *bombed your country* not so long ago for sponsoring PLO attacks on our civilians and you're going to say Israel and the old Tunisian regime had significant ties? Wtf are you smoking? Last I checked allies don't bomb each other.

The old Tunisian regime and Israel had nothing to do with each other. Your "facebook friends" are suffering from Obsessive Compulsive Israel Disorder (OCID). You're being paranoid and hysterical.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 28, 2011)

The protesters have been very intelligent by fighting against the police and cheering the military. Going to make it very hard for military personnel to open fire on what appear to be allies. 

Scenes like the army and the protesters joining together to protect the Museum of Antiquities sends a powerful message.

It seems the Egyptian aristocrats are also fleeing, according to news reports.



> Egypt opposition party calls for interim government


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011...smid=twtr-reuters_ com&WT.z_smid_dest=Twitter

Seems Mubarak's position has become untenable in just 48 hours.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 28, 2011)

> zahrahb‎ RT @Remroum: Channel 10 in Israel is saying Mubarak flew to Switzerland via priavte jet (via @GazaYBO) #Egypt #Jan25



Is this true? I know the BBC and others are saying he is likely to go.



> AL JAZEERA: Egypt’s parliament speaker says ‘an important matter will be announced in a short time’.



uh oh


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

According to Reuters, 13 people were killed in Suez today. 5 dead and 1030 wounded in Cairo




			
				Shinigami Perv said:
			
		

> uh oh



Tunisia all over again.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 28, 2011)

> 3 private jets leave Cairo airport under heavy security; parliament speaker to make major announcement - NBC



Mubarak may have already fled.


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Jan 28, 2011)

He Fled to Tunisia...


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 28, 2011)

Guardian is claiming the U.S. government has been secretly backing this revolt for 3 years and this is essentially a "regime change" by Obama:



This sounds rather ridiculous personally.


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

Mubarak speaking now

Claiming he is for freedom of expression while on the same time killing of internet connections in Egypt....


----------



## iander (Jan 28, 2011)

I like how Mubarak is calling for dialogue after he shut off the internet, social networking and imposed a nation wide curfew. 

Oust the bum.

Edit: Jin beat me to it, damn it lol


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 28, 2011)

He just said the govt is resigning. But he's not out.

Curious to see how the people take this since he's not leaving himself, at least from the translation I heard.

Nothing really changes. He just blamed the cabinet when the people are clearly calling for him to leave.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 28, 2011)

If my Arabic is right he just said he's going to change around a lot of cabinet positions from the lookseys.

Seems to be trying to shift blame to his lackeys. Very Stalinist.


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 28, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> He just said the govt is resigning. But he's not out.



No way will the people be satisfied with this, that would shock me. It's as if someone demands a total renovation of a house and all thats done is to move around a few pieces of furniture.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 28, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> No way will the people be satisfied with this, that would shock me. It's as if someone demands a total renovation of a house and all thats done is to move around a few pieces of furniture.



Yep. On Al Jazeera right now, the people are turning from their TV/radios in the streets after the announcement and are chanting "down with Mubarak" live.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 28, 2011)

I want Mubarak to be out, and to be replaced by something more resembling of a democratic government. But events are outside my hands, so I can only hope.


----------



## Raiden (Jan 28, 2011)

Now to see what happens next.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2011)

His approval raiting is probably higher than the Senate's.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 28, 2011)

Narutofann12 said:


> I want Mubarak to be out, and to be replaced by something more resembling of a democratic government. But events are outside my hands, so I can only hope.


That still may be more harm than good for the region considering other democratic experiments in the Middle East.


----------



## Ceria (Jan 28, 2011)

You've got to give the guy some balls, fire the cabinet and senate but he stays in power, cause that's just how he rolls.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 28, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That still may be more harm than good for the region considering other democratic experiments in the Middle East.



Yes, there is even then the possibility of things going sour.   What I am hoping for, is not for a failed experiment though.


----------



## masamune1 (Jan 28, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> But the revolutions following the Berling Wall in the communist countries were succesful. Today, most of these countries are democracies that are members of the EU or Nato or both.
> 
> Not saying that Egypt and Tunisia will be a Jeffersonian democracy here, but it wont necessarily be a failure either.



The former Soviet nations included places like Serbia which endured genocide and war before getting to where it is today. They are also amongst the poorest countries in Europe, and organized crime is a rampant problem. It's not all that rosy a picture as you seem to be suggesting.

I should add that, despite their image as simultaneous mass popular uprisings, these countries _did_ have active resistance movements that at the very least laid the groundwork for regime change, and were part of a broad network where, for instant, Czech anti-Communists were allied with anti-Communists in Poland, Germany etc. and took part in each others' revolutions.

I'm saying this because, given the rapidity in which these protests are spreading to other countries, it's likely something similar is happening here, but unlike the Iron Curtain example there is a greater presence of extremists in this case and, indeed, there is a good chance that those extremists are amongst the "organizers" (for lack of a better term). You seem to be assuming these protests are even _about_ democracy. From what I gather they are more about government corruption, poverty and economic woes. 



Megaharrison said:


> Guardian is claiming the U.S. government has been secretly backing this revolt for 3 years and this is essentially a "regime change" by Obama:
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds rather ridiculous personally.



Thats not the Guardian.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 28, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Thats not the Guardian.



Damn Freudian slips. I think ridiculous and write guardian.


----------



## masamune1 (Jan 28, 2011)

Its not that ridiculous; its more a case of hyperbole on the part of the Telegraph. It would'nt be surprising in the least if America had been backing pro-democracy forces in Egypt and elsewhere, and even being informed of such uprisings.

Its just more of a matter of appreciating that America is not neccesarily the "mastermind" behind these attempted revolutions. More likely they were probably told by pro-democratic groups that they were planning such a thing and they though "yeah, sure, go ahead". They simply might not have thought it would be as succesful as it looks set to be. Now they are probably worrying about the potential consequences.


----------



## Outlandish (Jan 29, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThvBJMzmSZI[/YOUTUBE]

i hope the blockade is removed first and then war declared on the illegal state of Israel


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 29, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> i hope the blockade is removed first and then war declared on the illegal state of Israel



Why do you want thousands of Egyptian men to die in a pointless war?

It's so easy being a hardcore E-Jihadi when its not your ass who's on the line.


----------



## Zabuzalives (Jan 29, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThvBJMzmSZI[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> i hope the blockade is removed first and then war declared on the illegal state of Israel



So egypt gets even poorer by losing Its tourism revenue, american weaponry, and gets crushed in a war with no one caring for the shithole they created as they dug it for themselves. And people wonder why the muslim world is falling behind. Will be fun when the oil starts to run out


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 29, 2011)

Zabuzalives said:


> So egypt gets even poorer by losing Its tourism revenue, american weaponry, and gets crushed in a war with no one caring for the shithole they created as they dug it for themselves. And people wonder why the muslim world is falling behind. Will be fun when the oil starts to run out



no, people don't wonder that cause it's not true.  way to go overboard from that one outlandish comment of it's type.  knee jerkkk


----------



## sel (Jan 29, 2011)

This guy has been brilliant throughout what happenned Tunisia and the last few days in Egypt. I'd recommend following him if any of you guys are on the tweet.



Interesting...



> SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
> I'm reading Arabic blogs: speculation that Egypt's military chief of staff Lt. Gen. Sami Hafez Anan may assume power intermittently. #Jan25
> 10 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
> 
> ...


----------



## Sanity Check (Jan 29, 2011)

If only democrazy were so easy a caveman could do it, Egypt could hawk a giant noogie and have a democratic government appear.

Unfortunately, such is not the case and a good deal of planning, resources and acclimation are usually necessary for success.

AKA -- details many fail to consider at their own peril.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Jan 29, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> This is a basic American ideal? Strange considering American foreign policy doesn't seem to indicate it in the least. Fact of the matter is the world is more complicated, American leaders realize this and it's why no country really follows the ideal of democracy for everyone under all circumstances.
> 
> And spare me the abstract idealism, obviously what we want vs. what the reality is are two very different things. Democracy has been disastrous when it has been introduced suddenly in the Arab world, and Egypt will be no exception. At the very least it needs to be a gradual process, though in Lebanon this largely failed as well.



Maybe we should stop forcing any system to other countries and instead let them decide themselves what they want to have. Maybe there wont be Democracy in Egypt, maybe there will. The good thing is that in the late run, people will ALWAYS free themselves from systems that are not healthy for the population unless there are foreign forces who dont really want that. Without the Americans, Mubarak would have been gone ten years ago. The Egyptians are one of the oldest civilizations in history and they will continue to find a way out of their misery the same way China found its way. So we should have faith in them that they will find their way of handling their issues and not the one of the Europeans or Americans or whatever. And it is really sad that you rather want millions of people suffocate as long as you can have your so-called "stability", which doesnt really account because we all know there is no real peace between Egypt and Israel. True peace and stability will result from handling the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and not the support of some fucked-up dictator, so maybe we should focus our energy there and not somewhere else.




Megaharrison said:


> West doesn't really seem to understand the kind of powderkeg that's going to be unleashed if Mubarak falls, a democratic Egypt would be a disaster for everyone in the region and for the Egyptians themselves as sad as that is to say. While obviously everybody would prefer that everybody lives in democracy, the Lebanon, Iraq, or Gaza examples demonstrate what kind of instability can result from an Arab democracy. Both to itself and to everybody that has to be around it.
> 
> If Mubarak falls it's going to lead to the biggest catastrophe in the Middle East in recent memory, I just hope all these people preaching about FREEDOM realize that.





Megaharrison said:


> Oh of course Mubarak is a thug who I would probably be glad died if it wasn't for the catastrophic aftermath of such an event. However it should be noted that even the "moderates" in Egyptian politics such as El-Baredai still call for violence against Israel, which will risk inflaming the entire region. And keep in mind this guy is considered probably the most moderate figure in Egypt, I doubt he could beat out the Brotherhood.



Sorry MegaHarrison, but you fail on every level. I know that you are biased because you are Israeli but your opinion doesnt account for anything as you are cutting into your own flesh with such argumentation. 

First, if you talk about Hardliners, dont forget to mention your own current government that never has been more radical and nationalistic. Concering their ideology, they are not better than any other political radicals.

Second, the Muslim Brotherhood is not as radical or as media adopted another term, "islamist" as many think. They are heavily established into the Egyptian Society and long ago renounced violence and radicalism. They have a bright support under the population and if the people want them as the successors, hell, why not? Eventually they will hold power, but everyone will make sure that the military in Egypt will be strictly cut off from the influence of the government and if necessary, use a coup d?etait to remove any hardliner from the governmental seats.

Third, dont think that ANY negative event in the Middle East is not connected to Israel. As sad is it sounds, but that is the truth. I dont hold any grudge against Israel, they did what they did and had a lot of success. Thats fine and that is how history is made. But there would NOT have been the Hamas or Hezbollah without the conflict between Arabs and Jews. And why does nobody interfere against the Hezbullah in Lebanon? Because the Americans and Saudis want Syria to disconnect from Iran and in return, offer them more influence in Lebanon and thus support the Hezbullah....They are really naive because both powers truly think that once they are done with Iran, the Hezbullah will be lost as well. But that is a terrible accounting in front of the Lebanese People, who never wanted a Hezbullah that is that strong.

Fourth, the Hamas may be as radical as shit, but they are this way because they dont see any other possibility of hope into the future. We do remember what happened after they were elected? The blockade of the Gaza-stripe one second after their election? Instability is not a term exclusively reserved for one party...therefore the way how the rule of the Gaza-stripe went is not an isolated act of democracy that lead to the instability. Now we could argue day and night about another reality with a Hamas less radical, but that would not change anything in the Middle East. It would not change the settlement building and it would not change Jerusalem never being divided or refugees coming back to their homes. 

To come back to your initial point, a revolution in the arab world is exactly what we need. To achieve peace we need a new reality and cannot continue the status quo. A new reality is just starting to emerge in Egypt and hopefully will jump over to Syria, Jordan, Libya and Saudi-Arabia. Maybe the upcoming governments in those countries wont be the way the Americans want them to be, but maybe that is exactly what the Arabs need to get out of their catharsis and start an inner revolution which will change the society and ideology of those countries. In my opinion, a stronger Islamic influence in newly formed social-democracies in the Middle East will lead to more prosperity, progress and stability and will reduce any risk for Israel. Why you ask? Because the heavily funded dictators Mubarak, Assad, Hussein and Abdullah with support of the US fucked up their countries and not the Islam as a religious entity and a moderate democracy with Islamic foundations is what this region needs to meet their thirst for political stability and a strong society.



FapperWocky said:


> i support the right of the people to choose their government, middle east or not.
> 
> this is a basic american ideal and would expect that others should have that same ideal.



That is what I believe and we will have to face the outcome, whether we like it or not.


----------



## iander (Jan 29, 2011)

As many as 100 people have died in the protests.


----------



## Adagio (Jan 29, 2011)

Good to see that (for now) the army has not done anything to show whether they fully support Mubarak. The police isn't worth anything, the curfew has been on for some time now and perhaps maybe then some progress will be made. 

I don't know a great deal about the politics in the region, I've never been that informed about political relationships between Isreal and its surrounding nations, but I don't think that a change in government will necessarily spark widespread conflict in the area. Egypt receives a large substantial US aid on a yearly basis and considering the premise of these riots in the first place I don't think they'd be that eager to let go of it.


----------



## iander (Jan 29, 2011)

Head of Egyptian intelligence has been sworn in as new vice president.  People are saying this may be a way for Mubarak to step down.


----------



## maj1n (Jan 29, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Maybe we should stop forcing any system to other countries and instead let them decide themselves what they want to have. Maybe there wont be Democracy in Egypt, maybe there will. The good thing is that in the late run, people will ALWAYS free themselves from systems that are not healthy for the population unless there are foreign forces who dont really want that. Without the Americans, Mubarak would have been gone ten years ago.


Israel is responsible for itself, blaming Americans is just a poor attempt at masking a countries own faults.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> The Egyptians are one of the oldest civilizations in history and they will continue to find a way out of their misery the same way China found its way. So we should have faith in them that they will find their way of handling their issues and not the one of the Europeans or Americans or whatever. And it is really sad that you rather want millions of people suffocate as long as you can have your so-called "stability", which doesnt really account because we all know there is no real peace between Egypt and Israel. True peace and stability will result from handling the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and not the support of some fucked-up dictator, so maybe we should focus our energy there and not somewhere else.


Peace in the middle-east will not result from 'palestinian-israel conflict' that is just a part of the middle-east, it is actually quite revealing that you consider the whole of the middle-east peace to hinge on just this one conflict.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> First, if you talk about Hardliners, dont forget to mention your own current government that never has been more radical and nationalistic. Concering their ideology, they are not better than any other political radicals.


Poor argumentation, every single government has a dirty history, it is quite frivolous debating to suddenly 'accuse' someones government as some sort of rebuttal.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Third, dont think that ANY negative event in the Middle East is not connected to Israel. As sad is it sounds, but that is the truth. I dont hold any grudge against Israel, they did what they did and had a lot of success. Thats fine and that is how history is made. But there would NOT have been the Hamas or Hezbollah without the conflict between Arabs and Jews. And why does nobody interfere against the Hezbullah in Lebanon? Because the Americans and Saudis want Syria to disconnect from Iran and in return, offer them more influence in Lebanon and thus support the Hezbullah....They are really naive because both powers truly think that once they are done with Iran, the Hezbullah will be lost as well. But that is a terrible accounting in front of the Lebanese People, who never wanted a Hezbullah that is that strong.


Hamas and Hezbollah would have existed even if Israel did not exist, primarily speaking, a radical Islamic group would have existed whether or not Jews were living in the middle-east.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Fourth, the Hamas may be as radical as shit, but they are this way because they dont see any other possibility of hope into the future. We do remember what happened after they were elected? The blockade of the Gaza-stripe one second after their election? Instability is not a term exclusively reserved for one party...therefore the way how the rule of the Gaza-stripe went is not an isolated act of democracy that lead to the instability. Now we could argue day and night about another reality with a Hamas less radical, but that would not change anything in the Middle East. It would not change the settlement building and it would not change Jerusalem never being divided or refugees coming back to their homes.


No, Hamas is radical because of the culture within it, they are not radical simply as a byproduct of Israel, just as the Taliban is not 'radical' just because of the existance of America.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> To come back to your initial point, a revolution in the arab world is exactly what we need. To achieve peace we need a new reality and cannot continue the status quo. A new reality is just starting to emerge in Egypt and hopefully will jump over to Syria, Jordan, Libya and Saudi-Arabia. Maybe the upcoming governments in those countries wont be the way the Americans want them to be, but maybe that is exactly what the Arabs need to get out of their catharsis and start an inner revolution which will change the society and ideology of those countries. I*n my opinion, a stronger Islamic influence in newly formed social-democracies in the Middle East will lead to more prosperity, progress and stability and will reduce any risk for Israel*.


Islam and democracy are not compatible, rule by God is not compatible with rule by majority of Men



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Why you ask? Because the heavily funded dictators Mubarak, Assad, Hussein and Abdullah with support of the US fucked up their countries and not the Islam as a religious entity and a moderate democracy with Islamic foundations is what this region needs to meet their thirst for political stability and a strong society.


Islam has fucked up these countries more then America.

Also, to blame another country as 'the prime cause' is what is holding the people of the middle-east back, there is a culture of always blaming someone else, never taking responsibility, in  the middle-east, which your mindset perfectly shows.

Islam in fact makes this problem worse, because as a divine and 'perfect' idealogy to its adherents, it must be blameless.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 29, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> i hope the blockade is removed first and then war declared on the illegal state of Israel



Wow, how moronically insane are you. You want tens of thousands Egyptians to die? What would the war achieve? Why wage it? I'm going to torture you with this post for the rest of your forum life.

And do you want the entire Muslim world to be wiped out? That is what will happen if by some miracle you win, and Israel is destroyed.

I know asking you basic questions first like "what about innocent civilians on both sides" is moot for you, you don't care. 



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Maybe we should stop forcing any system to other countries and instead let them decide themselves what they want to have. Maybe there wont be Democracy in Egypt, maybe there will. The good thing is that in the late run, people will ALWAYS free themselves from systems that are not healthy for the population unless there are foreign forces who dont really want that. Without the Americans, Mubarak would have been gone ten years ago. The Egyptians are one of the oldest civilizations in history and they will continue to find a way out of their misery the same way China found its way. So we should have faith in them that they will find their way of handling their issues and not the one of the Europeans or Americans or whatever. And it is really sad that you rather want millions of people suffocate as long as you can have your so-called "stability", which doesnt really account because we all know there is no real peace between Egypt and Israel. True peace and stability will result from handling the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and not the support of some fucked-up dictator, so maybe we should focus our energy there and not somewhere else.



It's really sad you want there to be a new war while also having no relevant change on the status of "suffocation". Do you think the next government will be any less brutal? Yeah, that sure was the case in Iran and Gaza. 

Arab society doesn't view democracy in the way Westerners do, the West needs cultural relativism here instead of hailing FREEDOMZ naively. 

And our relations with the Muslim world are not connected to any "peace" with the Pali's. That just effects our relationship with the West. For instance, look at the results of the Gaza withdrawal. Egyptians have no legitimate reason to hate us and yet they still do, no matter what they do they'll still hate us so this idea that it's connected to the Pali problem makes no sense.



> Sorry MegaHarrison, but you fail on every level. I know that you are biased because you are Israeli but your opinion doesnt account for anything as you are cutting into your own flesh with such argumentation.



Oh so opinions are based upon nationality now? Lol racism. 



> First, if you talk about Hardliners, dont forget to mention your own current government that never has been more radical and nationalistic. Concering their ideology, they are not better than any other political radicals.



How is a right wing Israeli government somehow disproving that a democratic Egypt won't be extreme? This has nothing to do with the other.

And of course Netenyahu is less extreme then the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you even know what the Muslim Brotherhood advocates? This is a ridiculous point. Look at the ideology of the government of Gaza vs. Israel, and you see the differences in Muslim brotherhood ideology vs. mainstream Israeli right.



> Second, the Muslim Brotherhood is not as radical or as media adopted another term, "islamist" as many think. They are heavily established into the Egyptian Society and long ago renounced violence and radicalism. They have a bright support under the population and if the people want them as the successors, hell, why not? Eventually they will hold power, but everyone will make sure that the military in Egypt will be strictly cut off from the influence of the government and if necessary, use a coup d´etait to remove any hardliner from the governmental seats.



Ridiculous, they are as extreme as they are made out to be. They share ideology with Hamas, and I can go on and on about them. I also don't take well to total theocracies. Lastly, look at their support for attacks on civilians based upon nationality. Such beliefs are barbaric.

And you're advocating using a *military coup* as a means to make sure Egypt doesn't become radical. That shows how much faith you have in its democracy system, me thinks.



> Third, dont think that ANY negative event in the Middle East is not connected to Israel. As sad is it sounds, but that is the truth. I dont hold any grudge against Israel, they did what they did and had a lot of success. Thats fine and that is how history is made. But there would NOT have been the Hamas or Hezbollah without the conflict between Arabs and Jews. And why does nobody interfere against the Hezbullah in Lebanon? Because the Americans and Saudis want Syria to disconnect from Iran and in return, offer them more influence in Lebanon and thus support the Hezbullah....They are really naive because both powers truly think that once they are done with Iran, the Hezbullah will be lost as well. But that is a terrible accounting in front of the Lebanese People, who never wanted a Hezbullah that is that strong.



Oh of course, I'm all for stating that Israel isn't the center of the region. However in this case, the Egyptians total and irrational hatred for Israel combined with it bordering us is going to lead to a problem. Most things in Egyptian society are blamed on Israel, many support aggressive war against Israel regardless of what it costs them. Just look at Outlandish's post.

And if you think Hezbollah is going anywhere in Lebanon then you're completely naive, but that's another issue. By this point there's no difference between Hezbollah and the Lebanese state.



> Fourth, the Hamas may be as radical as shit, but they are this way because they dont see any other possibility of hope into the future. We do remember what happened after they were elected? The blockade of the Gaza-stripe one second after their election? Instability is not a term exclusively reserved for one party...therefore the way how the rule of the Gaza-stripe went is not an isolated act of democracy that lead to the instability. Now we could argue day and night about another reality with a Hamas less radical, but that would not change anything in the Middle East. It would not change the settlement building and it would not change Jerusalem never being divided or refugees coming back to their homes.



Gaza went to shit the day after we withdrew, the "blockade" (which isn't even a blockade, we can't control all of Gaza's borders geographically) had nothing to do with it. The very fact we withdrew from Gaza *for the peace effort* should have led to more confidence from Hamas that there is hope in the future by peaceful means, not less. Instead they just used it to attack us.

This idea that Hamas is so meany because of the "Gaza blockade" is ridiculous. If they did what they did because of the blockade, they would also be attacking Egypt. Hamas wants the total destruction of Israel, this is repeatedly stated in their charter. If they wanted to indicate they didn't want this there are a number of actions they could undertake: stop saying they want to destroy us, amend their charter, disarm and accept the Oslo Accords, stop all aggressive action against us without us having to put a gun to their head, and so on.



> To come back to your initial point, a revolution in the arab world is exactly what we need. To achieve peace we need a new reality and cannot continue the status quo. A new reality is just starting to emerge in Egypt and hopefully will jump over to Syria, Jordan, Libya and Saudi-Arabia. Maybe the upcoming governments in those countries wont be the way the Americans want them to be, but maybe that is exactly what the Arabs need to get out of their catharsis and start an inner revolution which will change the society and ideology of those countries. In my opinion, a stronger Islamic influence in newly formed social-democracies in the Middle East will lead to more prosperity, progress and stability and will reduce any risk for Israel. Why you ask? Because the heavily funded dictators Mubarak, Assad, Hussein and Abdullah with support of the US fucked up their countries and not the Islam as a religious entity and a moderate democracy with Islamic foundations is what this region needs to meet their thirst for political stability and a strong society.



That's a noble and fun mindset but completely absent from reality unfortunately. Believe me, I *wish* what you said was true. But as I've said, the experiments of democracy in the region thus far were completely anti-progressive, harmful to themselves and everyone around them, and led to more problems. These Arab dictators, regardless of being moronic despots, are also more reliable and pragmatic then mob and street opinion. 

All I want these countries to do by the way is leave us alone, I don't care what they do besides that. However that seems to indeed be a crazy demand based upon populist movements in Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, and so on.



			
				iander said:
			
		

> Head of Egyptian intelligence has been sworn in as new vice president. People are saying this may be a way for Mubarak to step down.



Omar Suleiman lol. He's Mubaraks Beria. I really can't think of more a symbol of Mubaraks brutal rule then him, and ol'Hosni wants to make *him* the new successor? Talk about a stupid move. This will only enrage the protestors even more.

That being said if Mubarak doesn't fall and Suleiman does succeed him, it will essentially be a continuation of Mubaraks rule with perhaps more aggressive crackdowns on internal dissent and Iranian influences. Suleiman is a hardcore spymaster, he wants to aggressively counter the 2 primary threats to the Egyptian regime: internal dissent and Iran.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Jan 29, 2011)

maj1n said:


> Israel is responsible for itself, blaming Americans is just a poor attempt at masking a countries own faults.



Who was talking about Israel here? Its all about the US and their relationship to Egypt. The US put 1,5 billion dollars every year into the Egyptian military. They said jack shit about human rights and democracry in Egypt. Why? Because they needed Egypt. If we wouldnt live in a world with double-edged swords, the US could easily have invaded Egypt and not Iraq. The reasons could all have accounted for the same.




> Peace in the middle-east will not result from 'palestinian-israel conflict' that is just a part of the middle-east, it is actually quite revealing that you consider the whole of the middle-east peace to hinge on just this one conflict.



Its all about the Palestinian-Israel-Conflict. This is the ONLY reason all the arab dictators currently are in power. I?m not saying it is justified, but that is what keeps them in power. Or isnt any country using the Israeli and sometimes US "demons" as a method to clinch to power and supress the population?



> Poor argumentation, every single government has a dirty history, it is quite frivolous debating to suddenly 'accuse' someones government as some sort of rebuttal.



People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.



> Hamas and Hezbollah would have existed even if Israel did not exist, primarily speaking, a radical Islamic group would have existed whether or not Jews were living in the middle-east.



Based on what fact? Do you even know the agenda of those parties? 



> No, Hamas is radical because of the culture within it, they are not radical simply as a byproduct of Israel, just as the Taliban is not 'radical' just because of the existance of America.



Still, the outcome of the Hamas ideology is not the same of the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood. 



> Islam and democracy are not compatible, rule by God is not compatible with rule by majority of Men



It definitely is compatible. But maybe you are equalizing democracy with the culture of the Western world. That, indeed, is not compatible with the Islam.



> Islam has fucked up these countries more then America.
> _
> Also, to blame another country as 'the prime cause' is what is holding the people of the middle-east back, there is a culture of always blaming someone else, never taking responsibility, in  the middle-east, which your mindset perfectly shows._
> 
> Islam in fact makes this problem worse, because as a divine and 'perfect' idealogy to its adherents, it must be blameless.



Thats EXACTLY the point why the people in the Middle East are in uproar. Because they dont want this shit to continue anymore. Other people here are blaming the Egyptians for wanting to end the suffocation, lol...

Nevertheless, I am absolutely certain there would not have been a Mubarak, Abdullah or Saddam without the US. But, yeah, whatever. No matter what Arabs do for the Western World, they always do wrong. As long as they dont crawl on their belly and beg for mercy..


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Jan 29, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> It's really sad you want there to be a new war while also having no relevant change on the status of "suffocation". Do you think the next government will be any less brutal? Yeah, that sure was the case in Iran and Gaza.
> 
> Arab society doesn't view democracy in the way Westerners do, the West needs cultural relativism here instead of hailing FREEDOMZ naively.
> 
> And our relations with the Muslim world are not connected to any "peace" with the Pali's. That just effects our relationship with the West. For instance, look at the results of the Gaza withdrawal. Egyptians have no legitimate reason to hate us and yet they still do, no matter what they do they'll still hate us so this idea that it's connected to the Pali problem makes no sense.



I never said I want another war. In fact, I think that without the old elites, we will have a higher chance of achieving peace. I strongly believe that the next government will be less brutal since it will be the one that the citizens voted for and not a dictator clinging to power.

And withdrawing from Gaza because its too expensive to mantain whilst building new settlements and inprisoning people some hundred meters away surely makes people very angry. Especially if you give the Egyptians the responsibility for the Gaza stripe which they did not want to. And Israel isnt exactly building up its image otherwise there wouldnt be that many "neutral" countries that dislike you ( and I hope no one comes at me with the Antisemitism-beatstick). And no matter how many times Bibi, Abu Mazen or someone else proclaims peace talks, there wont be peace. Because neither the Jews nor the Arabs are ready to face painful decisions.



> Oh so opinions are based upon nationality now? Lol racism.



When werent say? So you tell me that you, as an Israeli, have an objective point of view concering the revolution in Egypt? Get off...  



> How is a right wing Israeli government somehow disproving that a democratic Egypt won't be extreme? This has nothing to do with the other.



It proves that there can be extreme radicals in a democracy and still keep the business running. Why should Egypt be different from other countries? Because we are Muslims and others are not? The Islamic ghost thats hailing through the media and tries to conquer the world?  



> And of course Netenyahu is less extreme then the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you even know what the Muslim Brotherhood advocates? This is a ridiculous point. Look at the ideology of the government of Gaza vs. Israel, and you see the differences in Muslim brotherhood ideology vs. mainstream Israeli right.





The Hamas may be linked with the Muslim Brotherhood, but that does not mean anything. If people would stop watching FOX Media and inform themselves about the Muslim Brotherhood, they knew that they transformed strongly in the last decades and today are a better alternative for Egypt than any other current political party.

And Bibi is not less redical because he denies the right of many minority groups in Israel, foremost the one of the Palestinians. He gave settlers the right to build settlements in the soon-to-be-Palestine, even though it was forbidden under UN-Law. Of course, in front of Lieberman, Bibi is shit, but still they smell the same. 

Everyone saying that the Muslim Brotherhood is "bad" and "radical" doesnt know shit about them. They were just Mubaraks scapegoats for sticking to power, nothing else.



> Ridiculous, they are as extreme as they are made out to be. They share ideology with Hamas, and I can go on and on about them. I also don't take well to total theocracies. Lastly, look at their support for attacks on civilians based upon nationality. Such beliefs are barbaric.



Hamas shares ideology with them, not the other way round. Dont mix up cause and effect. And I know you are not that stupid, we all know that people in such extreme situations, as the Palis are currently, tend to develop different than parties under other circumstances.



> And you're advocating using a *military coup* as a means to make sure Egypt doesn't become radical. That shows how much faith you have in its democracy system, me thinks.



I dont live in Utopia! As a young democracy, Egypt will have to meet many challenges and sometimes tough times. A strong military could ensure that no one tries to misuse that power in the beginning of the young republic.



> Oh of course, I'm all for stating that Israel isn't the center of the region. However in this case, the Egyptians total and irrational hatred for Israel combined with it bordering us is going to lead to a problem. Most things in Egyptian society are blamed on Israel, many support aggressive war against Israel regardless of what it costs them. Just look at Outlandish's post.



Well, I, myself, believe that the Arabs manoveured themselves into the current situation because of their behavior in the past. But the hate or dislike of the Egyptian people is pretty easily summarized. Compared to the Israelis, they are poor and have no perspective and are mad at their dictator for treating them like shit. Who supports Mubarak heavily? The Americans. Why? Because Egypt is majorily important for the US and Israel. So for the sake of the people, foreign powers support a dictator to stay where he is. Therefore I do understand their hate, even though its wrong to give Israel the fault. But that is why they are correcting some things now...



> And if you think Hezbollah is going anywhere in Lebanon then you're completely naive, but that's another issue. By this point there's no difference between Hezbollah and the Lebanese state.



Unfortunetaly, Hezbollah wont go anywhere, thats right. I even would cry crocodiles tears if Israeli rockets hit some headquarter of the Hezbollah...



> Gaza went to shit the day after we withdrew, the "blockade" (which isn't even a blockade, we can't control all of Gaza's borders geographically) had nothing to do with it. The very fact we withdrew from Gaza *for the peace effort* should have led to more confidence from Hamas that there is hope in the future by peaceful means, not less. Instead they just used it to attack us.



Sure they went shit! Before the withrawal, they were completely dependant from Israel. After Israel left, there was nothing left. The rhetorical prowess of some people is phenomenal.



> This idea that Hamas is so meany because of the "Gaza blockade" is ridiculous. If they did what they did because of the blockade, they would also be attacking Egypt. Hamas wants the total destruction of Israel, this is repeatedly stated in their charter. If they wanted to indicate they didn't want this there are a number of actions they could undertake: stop saying they want to destroy us, amend their charter, disarm and accept the Oslo Accords, stop all aggressive action against us without us having to put a gun to their head, and so on.



I did not say that they were not radical or hateful. But there is a reason for everything and their reason lies in front of their non-existentence. They are living a life between life and death and canalize that frustration through other means. And please, dont get me started on the Oslo Accords....




> That's a noble and fun mindset but completely absent from reality unfortunately. Believe me, I *wish* what you said was true. But as I've said, the experiments of democracy in the region thus far were completely anti-progressive, harmful to themselves and everyone around them, and led to more problems. These Arab dictators, regardless of being moronic despots, are also more reliable and pragmatic then mob and street opinion.
> 
> All I want these countries to do by the way is leave us alone, I don't care what they do besides that. However that seems to indeed be a crazy demand based upon populist movements in Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, and so on.



Well, I do have hopes into the Egyptian people. If the "experiment" succeeds there, we all will be more than happy, right? I will pray that Syria falls next. Because actually I think that they are the key to peace in the Middle East and not Egypt. If Syria falls (and moderate powers take over), the Hezbollah will be weakened considerably and give the Pro-Western movement in Lebanon more air to breathe. Iran will lose their greatest ally in that region. Its important, because Iran is not important for peace talks anyway as King Abdullah last time said "The conflict lies between Arabs and Israelis and Persians have nothing to do with it".

I know alot of my thoughts are idealistic, but if this movement doesnt work, I dont see peace coming for the next 20 years. Until then, there will be more Arabs in Israel and many more settlements and that will lead to a much greater conflict.


----------



## Bioness (Jan 29, 2011)

An interesting situation Egypt has that's for sure, I'm for the protest just wish people weren't dying for it >.>

Here are some pictures of what's happening btw












Source


Also notice how there are no women besides a few in the last picture


----------



## Karsh (Jan 29, 2011)

Well this is protest is going down the shithole since they started to randomly plunder.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 29, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> I never said I want another war. In fact, I think that without the old elites, we will have a higher chance of achieving peace. I strongly believe that the next government will be less brutal since it will be the one that the citizens voted for and not a dictator clinging to power.



I was talking to Outlandish.



> And withdrawing from Gaza because its too expensive to mantain whilst building new settlements and inprisoning people some hundred meters away surely makes people very angry. Especially if you give the Egyptians the responsibility for the Gaza stripe which they did not want to. And Israel isnt exactly building up its image otherwise there wouldnt be that many "neutral" countries that dislike you ( and I hope no one comes at me with the Antisemitism-beatstick). And no matter how many times Bibi, Abu Mazen or someone else proclaims peace talks, there wont be peace. Because neither the Jews nor the Arabs are ready to face painful decisions



We withdrew from Gaza for peaceful purposes. It wasn't because of expenses. For instance, the Israeli economy boomed in the 2006 period while settlements were already growing in the West Bank. This indicates settlements aren't harmful to the economy.

And Egypt should have responsibility of Gaza, they occupied it before we did after all. 



> When werent say? So you tell me that you, as an Israeli, have an objective point of view concering the revolution in Egypt? Get off...



Claiming my opinion is invalid because of where I was born is clear-cut racism. You should be ashamed of yourself.





> It proves that there can be extreme radicals in a democracy and still keep the business running. Why should Egypt be different from other countries? Because we are Muslims and others are not? The Islamic ghost thats hailing through the media and tries to conquer the world?



Except Egyptian radicals are far worse, just look at what happened in Gaza when they elected in religious nuts.





The Hamas may be linked with the Muslim Brotherhood, but that does not mean anything. If people would stop watching FOX Media and inform themselves about the Muslim Brotherhood, they knew that they transformed strongly in the last decades and today are a better alternative for Egypt than any other current political party.[/quote]

It's more then "linked", they're political allies and Hamas originally spawned from it. 

For instance, during the 2008 Gaza War the Muslim Brotherhood called for . This would be utterly insane for Egypt to do, they have no legitimate reason for even doing so, and it would result in horrible suffering for the Egyptian people. Yet they still want it. It shows how insane they are.



> And Bibi is not less redical because he denies the right of many minority groups in Israel, foremost the one of the Palestinians. He gave settlers the right to build settlements in the soon-to-be-Palestine, even though it was forbidden under UN-Law. Of course, in front of Lieberman, Bibi is shit, but still they smell the same.
> 
> Everyone saying that the Muslim Brotherhood is "bad" and "radical" doesnt know shit about them. They were just Mubaraks scapegoats for sticking to power, nothing else.



This is all less radical then the type of theocracy the Muslim Brotherhood advocates. Also Netenyahu does not advocate the extermination of an entire people, as the Muslim Brotherhood supports.



> Hamas shares ideology with them, not the other way round. Dont mix up cause and effect. And I know you are not that stupid, we all know that people in such extreme situations, as the Palis are currently, tend to develop different than parties under other circumstances.



Hamas shares ideology with them yes, the Muslim Brotherhood is still the same in ideology and I'm glad you admit it. 

Anyway I've already demonstrated that they have called for aggressive war against Israel, you can't possibly justify that.



> I dont live in Utopia! As a young democracy, Egypt will have to meet many challenges and sometimes tough times. A strong military could ensure that no one tries to misuse that power in the beginning of the young republic.



Yes, it's funny how one minute you call for democracy then the other you call for a military coup. A democracy which needs military coups to protect it from the masses shows there's something wrong with it. It also shows you don't really believe in democracy.





> Well, I, myself, believe that the Arabs manoveured themselves into the current situation because of their behavior in the past. But the hate or dislike of the Egyptian people is pretty easily summarized. Compared to the Israelis, they are poor and have no perspective and are mad at their dictator for treating them like shit. Who supports Mubarak heavily? The Americans. Why? Because Egypt is majorily important for the US and Israel. So for the sake of the people, foreign powers support a dictator to stay where he is. Therefore I do understand their hate, even though its wrong to give Israel the fault. But that is why they are correcting some things now...



It is wrong to give Israel the fault, their hatred of us is unjustified and irrational. I'm glad you agree.



> Sure they went shit! Before the withrawal, they were completely dependant from Israel. After Israel left, there was nothing left. The rhetorical prowess of some people is phenomenal.



So we shouldn't have left then? They wanted us to leave and we did exactly that. Not to mention Gaza still has a better standard of living then nearby Egypt as it is.



> Well, I do have hopes into the Egyptian people. If the "experiment" succeeds there, we all will be more than happy, right? I will pray that Syria falls next. Because actually I think that they are the key to peace in the Middle East and not Egypt. If Syria falls (and moderate powers take over), the Hezbollah will be weakened considerably and give the Pro-Western movement in Lebanon more air to breathe. Iran will lose their greatest ally in that region. Its important, because Iran is not important for peace talks anyway as King Abdullah last time said "The conflict lies between Arabs and Israelis and Persians have nothing to do with it".
> 
> I know alot of my thoughts are idealistic, but if this movement doesnt work, I dont see peace coming for the next 20 years. Until then, there will be more Arabs in Israel and many more settlements and that will lead to a much greater conflict.



Your ideas are indeed idealistic. I mean I wish they were true, but as I've explained over and over for this thread I just don't see it happening.


----------



## αce (Jan 29, 2011)

Why do people argue with Megaharrison facts?


----------



## sadated_peon (Jan 29, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> i hope the blockade is removed first and then war declared on the illegal state of Israel


Of course, it's not a good Muslim revolution if you can't kill Jews.


----------



## Juno (Jan 29, 2011)

Bioness said:


> Also notice how there are no women besides a few in the last picture


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 29, 2011)




----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 29, 2011)

Some pics of abandoned/destroyed Egyptian army vehicles:










American tech everywhere.


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## WT (Jan 29, 2011)

@Outlandish, war will achieve nothing but misery for the Egyptian people. Instead, if Mubarak's regime does collapse, Egypt should adopt a stance where it can develop properly and peacefully. It needs to get rid of the corruption first.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 29, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> @Outlandish, war will achieve nothing but misery for the Egyptian people. Instead, if Mubarak's regime does collapse, Egypt should adopt a stance where it can develop properly and peacefully. It needs to get rid of the corruption first.


They should open trade with Palestine honestly, don't they not provide aid at all?


----------



## WT (Jan 29, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> They should open trade with Palestine honestly, don't they not provide aid at all?



I'm not sure, but the blockade must be removed before any significant trade can be made.


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Jan 29, 2011)

I say that Egypt should go for the protests.


Their leader was basically a dictator and even planned to pass his ruling to his own son !


And I think other countries should stay out of this......We do not want hostilities coming from them and grow to hate foreign countries like what the CIA did with Iran in its revolution in the 1950s (which in turn fan the flames for religious conservatives to take over Iran in the 1970s who convinced the populace that they cannot trust the West for what it has done to their first revolution).


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## vivEnergy (Jan 29, 2011)

I wonder who will gain from that. Certainly not the people in the streets.


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## maj1n (Jan 29, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Who was talking about Israel here? Its all about the US and their relationship to Egypt. The US put 1,5 billion dollars every year into the Egyptian military. They said jack shit about human rights and democracry in Egypt. Why? Because they needed Egypt. If we wouldnt live in a world with double-edged swords, the US could easily have invaded Egypt and not Iraq. The reasons could all have accounted for the same.


Why does America have to babysit human rights and democracy in Egypt? your like so many people, you whine and say America shouldn't dictate other countries, then depend on America to make the world a good place.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Its all about the Palestinian-Israel-Conflict. This is the ONLY reason all the arab dictators currently are in power. I?m not saying it is justified, but that is what keeps them in power. Or isnt any country using the Israeli and sometimes US "demons" as a method to clinch to power and supress the population?


Which is the fault of the people, arab's choose to crystallize the palestinian-israel conflict as the centerpiece of their Governments legitimacy, they are to blame.

Stop blaming other people for ones own faults.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


I don't believe anyone is automatically at fault for their Governments sins, just as i dont believe the son is guilty for the sins of the father.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Based on what fact? Do you even know the agenda of those parties?


Yes ive read Hamas' mission charter, which is heavily fundamentalistic Islamic, the order to kill Jews indiscriminately is derived from hadith.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Still, the outcome of the Hamas ideology is not the same of the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood.


It shares similarities, which is Islam, the Muslim brotherhood wants to rule by Sharia,and Sharia is an oppressive and terrible moral system and law.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> It definitely is compatible. But maybe you are equalizing democracy with the culture of the Western world. That, indeed, is not compatible with the Islam.


There is no such thing as 'western democracy', democracy is rule by the majority of the people,that is the definition.

Ruling by religion always creates tyranny, because God supersedes man, and so whenever the populace desires rules and laws that go against the religion, the ruling class always has to enforce the religion against the people.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Thats EXACTLY the point why the people in the Middle East are in uproar. Because they dont want this shit to continue anymore. Other people here are blaming the Egyptians for wanting to end the suffocation, lol...
> 
> Nevertheless, I am absolutely certain there would not have been a Mubarak, Abdullah or Saddam without the US. But, yeah, whatever. No matter what Arabs do for the Western World, they always do wrong. As long as they dont crawl on their belly and beg for mercy..


Arab culture has too many problems, it is so heavily Islamic and so heavily anti-Israel that these things prevail over any possible 'good' in the culture.

A culture that is either based on outdated social rules thousands of years ago that discriminates against disbelievers, women, homosexuals and free thought, or based on hatred, is always harmful.


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Jan 29, 2011)

At least they are doing everything to protect their heritage.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 29, 2011)

Karsh said:


> Well this is protest is going down the shithole since they started to randomly plunder.



there's always looters, i can't recall civil unrest in decades that hasn't had looters.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 29, 2011)

Wait...if Egypt and Israel did go to war after this crisis...wouldn't Egypt stand FAR more of a chance this time since they're equipped with the US Military equipment? Hell they have 900 M1-A1 Abrams Tanks in their arsenal!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 29, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wait...if Egypt and Israel did go to war after this crisis...wouldn't Egypt stand FAR more of a chance this time since they're equipped with the US Military equipment? Hell they have 900 M1-A1 Abrams Tanks in their arsenal!


It would be crazy is somehow the US set this up to test their own technology against itself in battle.

Hmmm, in before conspiracy theory.


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## Kotoamatsukami (Jan 29, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> I was talking to Outlandish.



Well you still wrote this 





> It's really sad you want there to be a new war while also having no relevant change on the status of "suffocation". Do you think the next government will be any less brutal? Yeah, that sure was the case in Iran and Gaza.


 to me. Maybe you mistyped.



> We withdrew from Gaza for peaceful purposes. It wasn't because of expenses. For instance, the Israeli economy boomed in the 2006 period while settlements were already growing in the West Bank. This indicates settlements aren't harmful to the economy.



Sure, settlements are not harmful for your economy....but they are for the Palestinians.



> And Egypt should have responsibility of Gaza, they occupied it before we did after all.


Giving away responsibility without ensuring stability for the aftermath is like putting leaving a cat alone after feeding her for decades. Withdrawal with blockade is pretty contrary to the purpose.



> Claiming my opinion is invalid because of where I was born is clear-cut racism. You should be ashamed of yourself.



Duh, I was referring to the points that came afterwards as talking of a moral entity and hardliners and stuff. Sorry, its called reading comprehension.



> It's more then "linked", they're political allies and Hamas originally spawned from it.
> 
> For instance, during the 2008 Gaza War the Muslim Brotherhood called for . This would be utterly insane for Egypt to do, they have no legitimate reason for even doing so, and it would result in horrible suffering for the Egyptian people. Yet they still want it. It shows how insane they are.



"attacking President Mubarak's regime for failing to help Gaza's Hamas rulers."
and "Calls by some Brotherhood leaders" is not accountable for the whole organization. Otherwise I could pick some statements of some members of Yisrael Beitenu and we could laugh about their ideology.



> This is all less radical then the type of theocracy the Muslim Brotherhood advocates. Also Netenyahu does not advocate the extermination of an entire people, as the Muslim Brotherhood supports.


Neither do they, rejected violence several times, but hitting on old agendas is funnier than dealing with the status quo. Believe it or not, but people can change over decades.



> Hamas shares ideology with them yes, the Muslim Brotherhood is still the same in ideology and I'm glad you admit it.


So? Believe it or not, an Islamic agenda can consist of more topics than just death and terror..



> Anyway I've already demonstrated that they have called for aggressive war against Israel, you can't possibly justify that.



Not really..



> Yes, it's funny how one minute you call for democracy then the other you call for a military coup. A democracy which needs military coups to protect it from the masses shows there's something wrong with it. It also shows you don't really believe in democracy.



Come on man, dont be that naive. If you give a country, after decades of supressions, democracy, its clear that they will have to grow into it until the democracy is stable enough to maintain itself. The Egyptians, as well as the Tunesians, call for freedom, but dont have any experience with it and dont know how to face it. This vacuum gives radicals enough spot to fill the gaps. That is when you need someone that can step it until the new political form is strong enough.



> It is wrong to give Israel the fault, their hatred of us is unjustified and irrational. I'm glad you agree.


Yeah, so lets help the Egyptians get rid of Mubarak and both countries can develop true and sincere relationships.



> So we shouldn't have left then? They wanted us to leave and we did exactly that. Not to mention Gaza still has a better standard of living then nearby Egypt as it is.



Gaza is a self-made shithole under the surveillance of Israel. Dont even dare to talk about "standard of living" when a nation supresses another because it doesnt agree with their parliamentary elections and makes it the biggest prison in human history.



> Your ideas are indeed idealistic. I mean I wish they were true, but as I've explained over and over for this thread I just don't see it happening.



I do have hope


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## Megaharrison (Jan 29, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wait...if Egypt and Israel did go to war after this crisis...wouldn't Egypt stand FAR more of a chance this time since they're equipped with the US Military equipment? Hell they have 900 M1-A1 Abrams Tanks in their arsenal!



The two militarily compared:



Of course sheer statistics are of limited usefulness so take it as you will. 

I'll answer Kimi's post in the morning.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 29, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> The two militarily compared:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, I didn't know that stuff. Thanks Megaharrison.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 29, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wow, I didn't know that stuff. Thanks Megaharrison.



Also, if Egypt starts a war out of nothing, it will have most of the world against it, and they will not have anyone important backing them up. It would be a diplomatic catastrophe. On the other hand Israel might get some help from the Americans if a war was to happen.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jan 29, 2011)

Narutofann12 said:


> Also, if Egypt starts a war out of nothing, it will have most of the world against it, and they will not have anyone important backing them up. It would be a diplomatic catastrophe. On the other hand Israel might get some help from the Americans if a war was to happen.



I think history shows only the USA will back Israel.

The entire Muslims world would back Egypt no matter what

Europe could go either way but I doubt they'd support Israel unless Egypt attacked first and then it's only a maybe. They'll certainly look the other way if the new regime starts preping for war and arming Hamas et al but condemn Israel if it uses force to stop this.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> Gaza is a self-made shithole under the surveillance of Israel. Dont even dare to talk about "standard of living" when a nation supresses another because it doesnt agree with their parliamentary elections and makes it the biggest prison in human history.



What?

Why should Israel care whether or not Hamas were elected?

*That makes it worse*

Hamas have, in their charter, a promise to destroy Israel. The fact the Palestinians voted them in is a declaration of war. Let them be responsible for themselves.

And it's not a matter of who they chose, it a matter of what they do. They can elect who the fuck they like so long as they don't attack Israel


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## Zabuzalives (Jan 30, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> The two militarily compared:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm those numbers are pretty close, much more then i thought. Ofcourse training and strategics Will tip it in Israels favor and the benefit of a defensive war but look forward to your in depth analysis


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 30, 2011)

> I think history shows only the USA will back Israel.



The Americans are pretty important. Incredibly so. There is really not a counter super power today.  And in an aggressive war of Egypt against Israel, that Egypt will start, I doubt most of the world will meaningfully intervene in the actual war, but expect Egypt to become world wide isolated and criticized for it. Other countries like Russia or China, might say "lets show some restraint" but an Egyptian aggressive action, will not have them in Egypt's support. At best it will get from some "lets show some restraint in our response to their aggressive actions".



> The entire Muslims world would back Egypt no matter what


 In public, maybe some or several will. Some help might be given but I doubt they will provide them with very important, war altering help. 



> Europe could go either way but I doubt they'd support Israel unless Egypt attacked first and then it's only a maybe. They'll certainly look the other way if the new regime starts preping for war and arming Hamas et al but condemn Israel if it uses force to stop this.


 The scenario I was talking about is Egypt attacks first.

Europe consists of nations that are part of the NATO machine, and nations that do not intervene much militarily. An aggressive war of the Egyptians will be criticized even by the second group and those who often criticize Israel. And of course countries like Britain are expected to follow the American example. In fact the Americans posses big sway over Europe. Hell, I agreed with some criticisms of Israel by the European Union, and in the case of Egypt starting an aggressive war, I would be in favor of Egypt not managing to win the war, and being sympathetic towards Israel, like few times or ever before. Israel has often played a relatively aggressor's role in conflicts, were many thought their response to a situation was incredibly aggressive.  Who is the aggressor will matter. And you shall expect a pretty isolated Egypt in an UN security council which is mostly going to be against it, to mention one example.



> They'll certainly look the other way if the new regime starts preping for war and arming Hamas et al but condemn Israel if it uses force to stop this.



No, I doubt Europe will look the other way. Some countries will, but not all of them. Especially important strong ones that are in NATO. As I said above, the Americans hold sway, and there are also countries that think alike. And an aggressive action, such as building force to an invasion, or helping Hamas, will get a response.  Maybe the response will be inadequate if the new regime just helps Hamas (but the scenario I was talking about was war and helping Hamas are not the same thing), but don't expect one sided criticism of Israel. Even today, there isn't one sided criticism of Israel and complete blind eye to the actions of Hamas or Iran from European countries. Now, someone might disagree and think that European countries are often more hard on Israel than they should be, but the truth is that they also criticize Iran and others too. And in action we see sanctions against Iran. (I kind of think that indeed more attention is paid to Israel's actions than in how other countries behave and act.) Even so, if Egypt is so clearly, the aggressor we should expect condemnation of Egypt. It won't be business as usual for Europe and the world. At best maybe Muslim countries will be seeing it with some sympathy, but I doubt the rest of the world would. 

Remember the scenario here, that others mentioned, and I commented upon is this :"What if the new leadership of Egypt are absolutely insane, and start a war for absolutely no reason other than their hatred of the Jews and Israel. Now they might give a dumb pretext that is entirely different, but the incredible illegitimacy of the war would be apparent to all". Such type of wars, are both publicly unpopular, and in this case it will be also unpopular where it matters. 

Frankly I try to think of recent wars that are as illegitimate as this hypothetical one, and done by a country who will have as strong enemies as Egypt will have, if it does it, and I can't think of many.

I apologize if you thought I was talking about the war happening in different circumstances, or talking about something else than a war, but I am talking about a war happening under these circumstances.


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## WT (Jan 30, 2011)

@Megaharrison, Out of curiosity, do you have statistics for Iran, Saudi and Pakistan?


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## iander (Jan 30, 2011)

It seems the Egyptian government is intent on kicking out Al-Jazeera now.


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## escamoh (Jan 30, 2011)

doesn't seem like it'll do them much good at this point


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## Adagio (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm surprised the Muslim Brotherhood hasn't tried taking advantage of this yet. There is no organized leadership for these protests and I thought they'd be the first to fill that role.


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 30, 2011)

Tahrir square in Cairo is pretty electric right now, according to Al Jazeera...I fear a crackdown will happen in a few hours unfortunately.


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## Karsh (Jan 30, 2011)

So I watched CNN's coverage where they spoke to an egyptian correspondent saying they "want international pressure," and a reporter who asked around but that most didn't have an idea for what kind of leadership they wanted were the current government to fall.
Intense.


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## Degelle (Jan 30, 2011)

Narutofann12 said:


> The Americans are pretty important. Incredibly so. There is really not a counter super power today.



Sure there are, they're just not willing to waste their citizens lives, and money for the sake of being a self-proclaimed "policemen of the world." They are prospering while the U.S. is enervating.


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## Megaharrison (Jan 30, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Well you still wrote this  to me. Maybe you mistyped.



Oh, well I stick by that statement. I believe a sudden democratic experiment will result in stability and more suffering for both Egypt and its neighbors, and democracy won't even result from it.





> Sure, settlements are not harmful for your economy....but they are for the Palestinians.



Which is irrelevant to the point of "you left Gaza because it was expensive". No, we did it to promote peace.




> Giving away responsibility without ensuring stability for the aftermath is like putting leaving a cat alone after feeding her for decades. Withdrawal with blockade is pretty contrary to the purpose.



We can't blockade Gaza even if we wanted to, we do not control all of its borders. Look at a map and see Gaza's geography renders it immune from Israeli siege.

Moreover we didn't begin a full blockade from whatever territory we control until 2007 when Hamas, a group we are at war with, took full power in Gaza and escalated attacks against our country.





> Duh, I was referring to the points that came afterwards as talking of a moral entity and hardliners and stuff. Sorry, its called reading comprehension.



You said my opinion was inherently bias and thus invalid because I was Israeli:

"I know that you are biased because you are Israeli"



> "attacking President Mubarak's regime for failing to help Gaza's Hamas rulers."
> and "Calls by some Brotherhood leaders" is not accountable for the whole organization. Otherwise I could pick some statements of some members of Yisrael Beitenu and we could laugh about their ideology.



Why would the Muslim Brotherhood want to help Hamas? They're a brutal theocratic group with a genocidal objective which attacks civilians on a mass scale. The very fact the Muslim Brotherhood wants to help them shows how depraved they are.

And I didn't see anyone in the organization refute its calls for war with Israel.




> Neither do they, rejected violence several times, but hitting on old agendas is funnier than dealing with the status quo. Believe it or not, but people can change over decades.



Evidence they've rejected violence against Israel and want to preserve peace with it.



> So? Believe it or not, an Islamic agenda can consist of more topics than just death and terror..



Not for us.



> Not really..



Yah rly.





> Come on man, dont be that naive. If you give a country, after decades of supressions, democracy, its clear that they will have to grow into it until the democracy is stable enough to maintain itself. The Egyptians, as well as the Tunesians, call for freedom, but dont have any experience with it and dont know how to face it. This vacuum gives radicals enough spot to fill the gaps. That is when you need someone that can step it until the new political form is strong enough.



Yes and this inexperience with democracy leads to disaster, explaining how the disaster comes about doesn't prevent the disaster from being there.

And historically speaking, in none of the Arab democratic experiments have moderates with a "new political platform" stepped in.




> Yeah, so lets help the Egyptians get rid of Mubarak and both countries can develop true and sincere relationships.



Except that's not what Egyptians want. They irrationally hate us and even support war.



> Gaza is a self-made shithole under the surveillance of Israel. Dont even dare to talk about "standard of living" when a nation supresses another because it doesnt agree with their parliamentary elections and makes it the biggest prison in human history.



Except it has a better . If you want a real shithole, look to many more countries int he world.

And we have our policies because the group in charge is at war with, not because of not agreeing with parliamentary elections. I don't see how having an enemy who is democratically elected means you still can't act against that enemy.


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## hyakku (Jan 30, 2011)

Degelle said:


> Sure there are, they're just not willing to waste their citizens lives, and money for the sake of being a self-proclaimed "policemen of the world." They are prospering while the U.S. is enervating.



Please explain this.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 30, 2011)

I don't know where i stand on this issue because i don't know enough about the subject material, but isnt it somewhat against principles to be advocating violent uprising for those who are democracy supporters? 

If this is anything like Iran, we'd be best not to make things worse then they already are apparently with our involvement of the government there.

If China were to ever have a sudden uprising like this, god help any of its business partners that's for sure


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## Degelle (Jan 30, 2011)

It's nonetheless amazing how Megaharrison is always able to make every single thread about the middle east into a BAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWING festival of Israel.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 30, 2011)

Doesn't he defend israel because your always being a troll about it


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## masamune1 (Jan 30, 2011)

Adagio said:


> I'm surprised the Muslim Brotherhood hasn't tried taking advantage of this yet. There is no organized leadership for these protests and I thought they'd be the first to fill that role.



It does, and they have.

The protests are led by a rainbow coalition of anti-government forces, and they are part of it. 

Also, there were a number of prison breaks as the guards abandoned their posts and amongst the escapees were numerous jailed members of the Muslim Brotherhood. They might not have organized that break, but they definitely benifited from it.


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Jan 30, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> I don't know where i stand on this issue because i don't know enough about the subject material, but isnt it somewhat against principles to be advocating violent uprising for those who are democracy supporters?
> 
> If this is anything like Iran, we'd be best not to make things worse then they already are apparently with our involvement of the government there.
> 
> If China were to ever have a sudden uprising like this, god help any of its business partners that's for sure



It's better to potentially have a democracy than to certainly have a dictatorship. What we have now is certainly a dictatorship.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 30, 2011)

I don't understand..what's the difference between violent uprising every-time one don't like someone else's rule? That's not exactly a democracy in any form if its a precedent you know..


Not that i'm advocating for living under an oppressive regime or anything, it certainly would be better if we could have clear cut morality in this issue, but that isnt really the case is it


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## pikachuwei (Jan 30, 2011)

If the first thing the egyptians do is declare war on israel, i honestly wont mind if the israelis nuke the egyptians to shit.

i mean, ive already gone and seen the pyramids, so it doesnt really matter (plus they would probably survive a nuking anyway )

and on the other hand, ive also seen the opinion of average egyptians of israel (hating) and mubarak (moar hating). I hope shit goes down well, i liked my tour guide but he confessed he was the type who would join the army at the drop of the bat to shoot some jews if given the chance


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## vivEnergy (Jan 30, 2011)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> It's better to potentially have a democracy than to certainly have a dictatorship. What we have now is certainly a dictatorship.



Iraq recent history would beg to differ. Maybe the Muslim Egyptians will be more merciful on their christian brothers, oops too late. 

And for what it's worth Egypt is not Tunisia. An highly uneducated and illiterate population that can be easily turned into whatever the 'Islamists' will want them to be. Might not be a loss to the West though, they don't have much except for the pyramids and cheap tourism (Morocco is waayy better).


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## Kotoamatsukami (Jan 30, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> What?
> 
> Why should Israel care whether or not Hamas were elected?
> 
> ...



Well they did care because they put up a blockade after the election. If they didnt care, they wouldnt have done it.



Megaharrison said:


> Oh, well I stick by that statement. *I believe a sudden democratic experiment will result in stability* and more suffering for both Egypt and its neighbors, and democracy won't even result from it.




Thats what I believe, too ;-)



> Which is irrelevant to the point of "you left Gaza because it was expensive". No, we did it to promote peace.



You didnt because everyone knows that Israel didnt leave Gaza to promote peace but because of the expenses.



> We can't blockade Gaza even if we wanted to, we do not control all of its borders. Look at a map and see Gaza's geography renders it immune from Israeli siege.



Lol, you do except for that little stripe next to Egypt. And they´re not immune because the asshole Mubarak, who hopefully will be left in prison after the revolution is over, doesnt help them.



> Moreover we didn't begin a full blockade from whatever territory we control until 2007 when Hamas, a group we are at war with, took full power in Gaza and escalated attacks against our country.



So you do care about the elections?



> You said my opinion was inherently bias and *thus *invalid because I was Israeli:



Wrong conclusion. To be biased does not mean having an invalid opinion. But maybe that is your perception of the word biased...



> Why would the Muslim Brotherhood want to help Hamas? They're a brutal theocratic group with a genocidal objective which attacks civilians on a mass scale. The very fact the Muslim Brotherhood wants to help them shows how depraved they are.



Yeah, being ultra-orthodox and radical in Israel is called "right-wing". Being religios and right-wing in any Arab country means being a "terrorist group". Funny perception.




> And I didn't see anyone in the organization refute its calls for war with Israel.



Why would they? Lol. You have a group that is supressed for decades, why would an official go to the streets and beg Mubarak, who controls the army and is an ally of the US and Israel, not to start a war...sounds more like slapstick.



> Yes and this inexperience with democracy leads to disaster, explaining how the disaster comes about doesn't prevent the disaster from being there.



Have faith, son...



> And historically speaking, in none of the Arab democratic experiments have moderates with a "new political platform" stepped in.



Historically speaking there are near to no democratic experiences in the Arab world. It is a new situation for most of the countries and what will happen will happen and we will face the consequences.




> Except that's not what Egyptians want. They irrationally hate us and even support war.



Sounds like Israel for me.



> Except it has a better . If you want a real shithole, look to many more countries int he world.



Sorry, but this is so crazy...I wont replay to this comment.



> And we have our policies because the group in charge is at war with, not because of not agreeing with parliamentary elections. I don't see how having an enemy who is democratically elected means you still can't act against that enemy.



Maybe you are at war with them? Who occupies land from whom? There is more gray in your black and white picture than you refuse to accept. Or maybe its not because you´re biased... 


I have the feeling that we arent improving in this debate, therefore I´m going to end it here. But feel free to respond, I will certainly read your answer.

The feeling that I have is that some do not want Arabs to have freedom because that could cost them stability in their own countries....But uncertainty is never worth helping dictators to stay at power. Everyone deserves freedom and we should promote that to EVERYONE, otherwise we will be immoral assholes that only support countries at our whim. I do think that after the turmoils Egypt can raise stronger and better out of their situation and help overall to improve the atmosphere in the Middle East. But thats just me.


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## hyakku (Jan 30, 2011)

Lol, Jesus, they couldn't stay focused for more than a week? I don't see how looting each other is making a case to the world that you are prepared for democracy (and yea, i'm sure i'll get all the usual bawwing from people who like to ignore historical reality when they claim that any group can be "ready" for democracy), nor does releasing jailed militants (and if you are jailed by Egyptian standards, well shit, you've gotta be pretty fucking militant) add credibility to their cause. 

Like I've been saying, Egypt, like Sudan, Somalia and likely Lebanon this year, will not become another tunisia because they are fundamentally different cultures and nation's with Tunisia being far more moderate and "ready" for democracy than any of these nations.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jan 30, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Well they did care because they put up a blockade after the election. If they didnt care, they wouldnt have done it.



...

I don't think you quite get this

You said



> Dont even dare to talk about "standard of living" when a nation supresses another because it doesnt agree with their parliamentary elections and makes it the biggest prison in human history.



Implying Israel committed some grievous sin by rejecting Hamas after they were elected.

The point is Hamas are at war with Israel. Once they were elected and had control of all of Gaza they became much more dangerous and needed to dealing with. A blockade helps deprive them of the resources they'd need to conduct offensive operations.

Israel doesn't care if Hamas were elected or not or if another party took control or if Gaza fell into the sea or if it was invaded by Mongol hordes.

*All Israel cares about is if that group is hostile, neutral or friendly to Israel. Hamas is demonstrably an enemy of Israel, it's in their charter. Hamas control Gaza. Ergo Gaza will be a target of Israeli military operations so long as it is a base for their enemies.*

If you don't want to be attacked by Israel stop attacking Israel. It works.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 30, 2011)

Destroying a goverment always results in instability and bloodshed, and there's no real guarantee of reformation either  We, the utter masters of knocking over governments illegitimately would know best what a bad idea it is


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 30, 2011)

I urge people to read this and focus on what it says about Egypt and Egyptians. See  the last graphs of the PDF which are about what kind of laws they are in favor of.  Egyptian Muslims seem to have some of the worst results there while Turks have the best.

Here is an example of the information there: 


> At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion. Majorities of Muslims in Jordan and Nigeria also favor these harsh punishments.


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## vivEnergy (Jan 30, 2011)

In b4 the islamists bomb the pyramids and burn the mummies and idols.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jan 30, 2011)

On the upside the Muslim world outside of east-Asia isn't going to catch up to the west any-time soon if that's they're attitude 

A country that doesn't utilise it's women as equal citizens it's never going to be able to touch the ones who do.


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## makeoutparadise (Jan 30, 2011)

vivEnergy said:


> In b4 the islamists bomb the pyramids and burn the mummies and idols.



speaking of that where is Dr Hawass in all of this?

 ?


----------



## Black Wraith (Jan 30, 2011)




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## hcheng02 (Jan 30, 2011)

vivEnergy said:


> In b4 the islamists bomb the pyramids and burn the mummies and idols.



Already happened. 





> Egypt: Looters rip heads off mummies
> Crowds enter the Egyptian Museum, destroy, decapitate artifacts
> By AP:MAGGIE HYDE and MAGGIE MICHAEL
> 
> ...


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Jan 30, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> On the upside the Muslim world outside of east-Asia isn't going to catch up to the west any-time soon if that's they're attitude
> 
> A country that doesn't utilise it's women as equal citizens it's never going to be able to touch the ones who do.



45 years ago blacks were not equal to whites in the US. for a country that proclaimed equality from start to scratch, thats a long way to go. i count 200 years.

btw sorry for your effort, im not going to respond to your post from before. im done with this discussion  thanks anyway.



hcheng02 said:


> Already happened.



Where does it say anything about "Islamists"? Racist.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 30, 2011)

Yeah dude Egyptians are out of fucking control.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 30, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> 45 years ago blacks were not equal to whites in the US. for a country that proclaimed equality from start to scratch, thats a long way to go. i count 200 years.
> 
> btw sorry for your effort, im not going to respond to your post from before. im done with this discussion  thanks anyway.



How the hell does this diminish TPN's point? If it will take decades/centuries to put women in equal footing than that is time lost for the Muslim countries. 



> Where does it say anything about "Islamists"? Racist.



I was talking about looting in general. And Islam isn't a race. At least look over the article and think things through without negging.


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## iander (Jan 30, 2011)

The Muslim Brotherhood supported ElBaradei as the face of the opposition.  What are the apologists going to say now?


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## hcheng02 (Jan 30, 2011)

iander said:


> The Muslim Brotherhood supported ElBaradei as the face of the opposition.  What are the apologists going to say now?



He'll be a figurehead until the Muslim Brotherhood builds enough strength to put their own candidate. Meanwhile, as one of the most powerful and well organized groups they can control things from behind the scenes. Just look at Hezbollah in Lebanon. 

Also, just because the Islamists aren't the major power now doesn't mean that they won't gain it in the future. Case in point, the Iran Revolution.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 30, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Well they did care because they put up a blockade after the election. If they didnt care, they wouldnt have done it.



"After the election" because they're our enemy. It has nothing to do with "disrespecting a democracy" and more with "acting against your enemy". I don't see why Hamas is immune from our defense because of "democracy"



> You didnt because everyone knows that Israel didnt leave Gaza to promote peace but because of the expenses.



I've already gone over how that's impossible. The Israeli economy boomed in a period that saw settlement expansion. If settlements were so expensive, we would be unable to maintain our economy growth (2nd fastest in the developed world currently) due to many more West Bank settlements.



> Lol, you do except for that little stripe next to Egypt. And they?re not immune because the asshole Mubarak, who hopefully will be left in prison after the revolution is over, doesnt help them.



"Except for that little strip near Egypt" means Israel does not control Gaza's borders and indeed can not maintain a full siege.





> So you do care about the elections?



Democracy is great, but we'll defend ourselves regardless of the results. If they vote somebody into power who's sworn to destroy us, we'll still act against them.





> Wrong conclusion. To be biased does not mean having an invalid opinion. But maybe that is your perception of the word biased...



To be bias would imply my opinion was invalid, yes. I've hardly seen bias used in a positive light.




> Yeah, being ultra-orthodox and radical in Israel is called "right-wing". Being religios and right-wing in any Arab country means being a "terrorist group". Funny perception.



Muslim Brotherhood is far more radical then any mainstream party in Israel, I fail to see you labeling them terrorist. Moreover the mainstream Israeli right does not advocate the types of things you see in Egypt.




> Why would they? Lol. You have a group that is supressed for decades, why would an official go to the streets and beg Mubarak, who controls the army and is an ally of the US and Israel, not to start a war...sounds more like slapstick.



Egypt isn't our ally, they're just not our enemy. Moreover if the Brotherhood was not for war with Israel, they should make it clear they don't support it when you have officials within the Brotherhood calling for it.



> Historically speaking there are near to no democratic experiences in the Arab world. It is a new situation for most of the countries and what will happen will happen and we will face the consequences.



And whatever democratic experiences took place have been a disaster. I don't see how Egypt will be any different.



> Sounds like Israel for me.



We don't hate the Egyptians, we're not the ones blaming them for everything. We just want them to leave us alone. However even if we did, that doesn't mean the Gypos don't irrationally hate us either.




> Sorry, but this is so crazy...I wont replay to this comment.



Factual statistics are crazy apparently. 



> Maybe you are at war with them? Who occupies land from whom? There is more gray in your black and white picture than you refuse to accept. Or maybe its not because you?re biased...



Yes we are at war with them, so we treat them as such. Us leaving Gaza shouldn't have resulted in them waging war on our civilians more easily, but they did.



> The feeling that I have is that some do not want Arabs to have freedom because that could cost them stability in their own countries....But uncertainty is never worth helping dictators to stay at power. Everyone deserves freedom and we should promote that to EVERYONE, otherwise we will be immoral assholes that only support countries at our whim. I do think that after the turmoils Egypt can raise stronger and better out of their situation and help overall to improve the atmosphere in the Middle East. But thats just me.



It's not uncertainty, I've demonstrated why it will be a problem whereas the other side is basically "well have faith". Faith is fine, but my country is the one that suffers from your ridiculous faith. It's easy to talk about democracy in Europe, they're not the ones in range of the rockets.



			
				iander said:
			
		

> The Muslim Brotherhood supported ElBaradei as the face of the opposition. What are the apologists going to say now?



The face of the opposition supports violence against its neighbors for no legitimate reason. Hip-hip-hurray?


----------



## sadated_peon (Jan 30, 2011)

I really hope nothing happens to the Museum. I would be a such a loss if something happened to it. 

It is one of the things that I have always wanted to see.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 30, 2011)

isreal and it's sympathizers shitting their pants cause egyptians won't live under dictatorship anymore, what a scandalous position to take.


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 30, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> isreal and it's sympathizers shitting their pants cause egyptians won't live under dictatorship anymore, what a scandalous position to take.



And what makes you think that when the dust settles Egypt won't elect another strongman in place?


----------



## iander (Jan 30, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> He'll be a figurehead until the Muslim Brotherhood builds enough strength to put their own candidate. Meanwhile, as one of the most powerful and well organized groups they can control things from behind the scenes. Just look at Hezbollah in Lebanon.
> 
> Also, just because the Islamists aren't the major power now doesn't mean that they won't gain it in the future. Case in point, the Iran Revolution.



The Muslim Brotherhood has more in common with Ennahda and the Justice and Development Party than Hezbollah or Iran.  

They do make a good bogeyman though.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 30, 2011)

Fapper Wocky said:
			
		

> isreal and it's sympathizers shitting their pants cause egyptians won't live under dictatorship anymore, what a scandalous position to take.



I've yet to hear from your constant whinings how this will result in a better region or country. If you can't prove how it will, then it is legitimate to complain about this.



iander said:


> The Muslim Brotherhood has more in common with Ennahda and the Justice and Development Party than Hezbollah or Iran.
> 
> They do make a good bogeyman though.



Except as I've already gone over they've already urged for Mubarak to wage war on its neighbors in the past. They're a war mongering party.

And that's aside from their basic ideological platform of theocracy. I am always amazed by you people allying with these rightist theocratic groups in the Middle East.

They're just uniting with El Baradei to form a united front as the protest is losing steam in the face of disunity. It doesn't mean much in the ideological sense.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Jan 30, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> It's not uncertainty, I've demonstrated why it will be a problem whereas the other side is basically "well have faith". Faith is fine, but my country is the one that suffers from your ridiculous faith. *It's easy to talk about democracy in Europe, they're not the ones in range of the rockets.*




And there are certainly facts that lead to the conclusion that Egypt wont fall into the hands of radicals, but as I told you, I wont comment the Egypt - Israel discussion. Besides one point that is important for me to state. I´m from a place with a rich history of wars and conflicts so I may understand quite a bit about your suffocation and the angst of a new war.... Still, I don´t hate anyone for that reason and I promote freedom and equality for everyone BECAUSE I know that supression and suffering is hell. If I dont grant equality for  people that are a lesser risk for me as long as they are supressed, I could not look in the mirror again. Supporting dictators for the sake of other countries is utterly wrong and never justified. I won´t step back to any uncertainty or disappointing and I will always support people that are in a bad situation, no matter what kind of race, religion or political view they share. We dont know what will happen in Egypt, but if we even dont give the Egyptians the chance to turn the wheel into another direction with a brighter future, then we are doomed as human beings..


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 30, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> I've yet to hear from your constant whinings how this will result in a better region or country. If you can't prove how it will, then it is legitimate to complain about this.



the reasons things like freedom and self-determination or preferable to tyranny are well known, you're selfish and want to live it up at whoever's expense. if someone else has to eat shit for your convenience, so be it, that's your philosophy.


----------



## Keile (Jan 30, 2011)

I could care less about Egypt. Let us not forget that Sudan has been embroiled in a deadly dance with civil war for years and Egypt, despite its military power, has done nothing but watch. If they want democracy and freedom, they fight for it without my blessings.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 30, 2011)

Keile said:


> I could care less about Egypt. Let us not forget that Sudan has been embroiled in a deadly dance with civil war for years and Egypt, despite its military power, has done nothing but watch. If they want democracy and freedom, they fight for it without my blessings.



well that's a piss poor attitude, but i've noticed that lately.


----------



## Keile (Jan 30, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> well that's a piss poor attitude, but i've noticed that lately.



Why should I care about the Arabs?

They are a glib, raucous and dogmatic kind that only intervene in affairs that accord with their own self-interest, or else happen to entice their eye. 

Can I travel to Egypt and expect to live peacefully amongst the populace as well as any Arab? No.

Can I do this in Israel? No. But is it a better existence? Certainly. 

All things considered, Israel is the lesser of evils in almost any candid comparison between they and their Arab adversaries.


----------



## iander (Jan 30, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Except as I've already gone over they've already urged for Mubarak to wage war on its neighbors in the past. They're a war mongering party.
> 
> And that's aside from their basic ideological platform of theocracy. I am always amazed by you people allying with these rightist theocratic groups in the Middle East.
> 
> They're just uniting with El Baradei to form a united front as the protest is losing steam in the face of disunity. It doesn't mean much in the ideological sense.



If they are war mongering, then I don't even know what you would call the US or Israel.

Their platform of theocracy as you say is little different from religious right parties in Israel like Shas.

Allying or supporting is not the same thing as addressing one sided rhetoric that would use a bogeyman to discourage democratic reform. I would never vote for them but I would support their right to participate in elections over support for a dictatorship any day.

You want to know who does support rightist theocratic groups in the Middle East though? The US, at least as long as they keep the oil coming and support US power in the region.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 30, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> the reasons things like freedom and self-determination or preferable to tyranny are well known, you're selfish and want to live it up at whoever's expense. if someone else has to eat shit for your convenience, so be it, that's your philosophy.


FapperWocky, you don't seem to grasp that _democracy has FAILED in the Middle East time and time and time again!_ If its a matter of keeping a dictator who keeps a region stable in power? I'll take the dictator over a possibility of a World War.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 30, 2011)

Keile said:


> Why should I care about the Arabs?
> 
> They are a glib, raucous and dogmatic kind that only intervene in affairs that accord with their own self-interest, or else happen to entice their eye.
> 
> ...



i don't know how to pick among two turds and decide one is better than another, but u've decided some attributes to help you choose, congrats.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> FapperWocky, you don't seem to grasp that _democracy has FAILED in the Middle East time and time and time again!_ If its a matter of keeping a dictator who keeps a region stable in power? I'll take the dictator over a possibility of a World War.



democracy is a failure everywhere, but what's that saying, it's the least bad system of all of bad systems men have invented.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 30, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> democracy is a failure everywhere, but what's that saying, it's the least bad system of all of bad systems men have invented.


Okay, now you're just trolling. Democracy helped America and Europe prosper. There's being a cynic and there's being just trolling for a rise out of people.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 30, 2011)

iander said:


> If they are war mongering, then I don't even know what you would call the US or Israel.



Does Israel call for war against countries that have nothing to do with it for no reason? No.

Moreover, BAAAAWing about Israel doesn't excuse the Muslim Brotherhood.



> Their platform of theocracy as you say is little different from religious right parties in Israel like Shas.



Even Shas is tame compared to these people, they're just the Egyptian Hamas. 

Moreover, BAAAAAWing about Israel doesn't excuse the Muslim Brotherhood.



> Allying or supporting is not the same thing as addressing one sided rhetoric that would use a bogeyman to discourage democratic reform. I would never vote for them but I would support their right to participate in elections over support for a dictatorship any day.



If you think the Muslim Brotherhood supports democracy you're naive, unless you think theocracies can be democratic. Good luck finding one of those.



> You want to know who does support rightist theocratic groups in the Middle East though? The US, at least as long as they keep the oil coming and support US power in the region.



BAAAAWing about the U.S. doesn't excuse the habit I've seen of leftists supporting Islamic theocratic groups in the region just because they're anti-American/Israeli/whatever.



			
				Fapper Wocky said:
			
		

> the reasons things like freedom and self-determination or preferable to tyranny are well known, you're selfish and want to live it up at whoever's expense. if someone else has to eat shit for your convenience, so be it, that's your philosophy.



So "freedom" at any cost despite the cost to everyone involved? The Iraq War must have been worth it then. Mass destruction for freedom, Yippie! 

And it isn't "selfish" to not want to have your country exposed to a horrific war. Again, it's easy to talk about freedom when you're not the ones who suffer from Arab experiments in democracy.

The problem is you people know nothing of the region and apply Western standards and worldviews to societies which are utterly non-Western. They don't view freedom the same way, they don't want the same things you do. Cultural relativism would be great here.

But yes you've yet to demonstrate how this is good for the greater region, so until you do reservations about this event are justified. I don't see why Egyptians having an Islamist theocracy in exchange for increased terrorism and wars is such a great thing.



			
				Kimimarox said:
			
		

> And there are certainly facts that lead to the conclusion that Egypt wont fall into the hands of radicals, but as I told you, I wont comment the Egypt - Israel discussion. Besides one point that is important for me to state. I´m from a place with a rich history of wars and conflicts so I may understand quite a bit about your suffocation and the angst of a new war.... Still, I don´t hate anyone for that reason and I promote freedom and equality for everyone BECAUSE I know that supression and suffering is hell. If I dont grant equality for people that are a lesser risk for me as long as they are supressed, I could not look in the mirror again. Supporting dictators for the sake of other countries is utterly wrong and never justified. I won´t step back to any uncertainty or disappointing and I will always support people that are in a bad situation, no matter what kind of race, religion or political view they share. We dont know what will happen in Egypt, but if we even dont give the Egyptians the chance to turn the wheel into another direction with a brighter future, then we are doomed as human beings..



Again, you are simply using idealism whereas I'm using precedent and evidence for my viewpoint.


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 30, 2011)

iander said:


> If they are war mongering, then I don't even know what you would call the US or Israel.
> 
> Their platform of theocracy as you say is little different from religious right parties in Israel like Shas.
> 
> ...



Typical lefty response. First of all, since when did Shas call for a holy war to exterminate Israel's neighbors? The US has being calling for Egypt to have democratic reforms since forever. Unfortunately, the US can only do so much with just words. 

As for Israel being a warmonger, thats what happens when you get attacked and threatened for everyday of your existence. But then again, leftists generally don't believe that Israelis deserve to live - having a part in colonialist white guilt and all - so that is to be expected from you. 

You're actually naive enough to think that a real democracy will come out of this are you? One where there is freedom of speech and religion and protection of woman's rights? It isn't going to happen. It will last a year tops before some religious/military strongman grabs hold of power. That's been the case for Arab history. Shit, that has been the case for most revolutions in human history. But I guess as long as the regime is acting against US interests - since the US is the worst country in the history of mankind - it is a good thing.


----------



## iander (Jan 30, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Typical lefty response.



Let the straw man begin...



hcheng02 said:


> First of all, since when did Shas call for a holy war to exterminate Israel's neighbors?



Straw man.  Mega was saying the MB has a theocratic ideology and using that as a reason to say how they are extreme and not compatible with a democratic system.  I pointed out an example in Israel but there are many examples of religious parties within democracies.



hcheng02 said:


> The US has being calling for Egypt to have democratic reforms since forever. Unfortunately, the US can only do so much with just words.



Calling for it in public and doing the opposite in private.  Pushing reform was always second to supporting Mubarak's dictatorship for US "security" interests.  You don't usually get democratic reforms by giving billions every year in military funding used to suppress the people.



hcheng02 said:


> But then again, leftists generally don't believe that Israelis deserve to live - having a part in colonialist white guilt and all - so that is to be expected from you.



Straw man.  My criticisms of the Israeli government have nothing to do with how I feel about Israelis as a people.  Maybe you conflate a government with its people but I don't.  I even have relatives in Israel.  There are also Israelis that have similar criticisms of their government.  



hcheng02 said:


> You're actually naive enough to think that a real democracy will come out of this are you? One where there is freedom of speech and religion and protection of woman's rights?



Straw man. There is a lot of unknowns about what is going to happen now but the future of their country is for them to decide.  Not you and not me.  



hcheng02 said:


> It isn't going to happen. It will last a year tops before some religious/military strongman grabs hold of power. That's been the case for Arab history. Shit, that has been the case for most revolutions in human history.



Its hard to change the status quo especially if there are so many people doing all they can to keep things the same but such changes are the story of human history.  There are failed revolutions sure but there are also successful ones.  I can tell you that they won't get anywhere waiting for Mubarak to make changes.



hcheng02 said:


> But I guess as long as the regime is acting against US interests - since the US is the worst country in the history of mankind - it is a good thing.



Straw man.


----------



## Mider T (Jan 30, 2011)

Looks like I'll be headed to Cairo, fuck.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Jan 30, 2011)

Keile said:


> So "freedom" at any cost despite the cost to everyone involved? The Iraq War must have been worth it then. Mass destruction for freedom, Yippie!
> 
> And it isn't "selfish" to not want to have your country exposed to a horrific war. Again, it's easy to talk about freedom when you're not the ones who suffer from Arab experiments in democracy.
> 
> ...



the iraq war being worth what to whom? that cost was borne exceedingly by americans by american's choosing.  iraqis were wallowing and should have been free to wallow in their tyranny until they decide to revolt, which the egyptians are doing now without US help.

Heaven forbid that democracy spread to the region without a US war and a million dead!

PS Please be mindful of criticizing "us" people and applying our western standards, i thought i was talking to an arab muslim for a second..


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 31, 2011)

iander said:


> Let the straw man begin...
> 
> Straw man.  Mega was saying the MB has a theocratic ideology and using that as a reason to say how they are extreme and not compatible with a democratic system.  I pointed out an example in Israel but there are many examples of religious parties within democracies.



No Mega noted that they have called for the Egyptian government to go to war with its neighbors like Israel. They also happen to be the group that Hamas branched out from. Mega doesn't give a shit whether or not the Muslim Brotherhood are democratic or not. What he is concerned with - and justly so - is that they will start another war with Israel or bolster Hamas. 



> Calling for it in public and doing the opposite in private.  Pushing reform was always second to supporting Mubarak's dictatorship for US "security" interests.  You don't usually get democratic reforms by giving billions every year in military funding used to suppress the people.



The funding is the result of the Camp David Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt made during the days of Sadat. The money is to bribe the Egyptians from starting another war again and for moving away from the USSR. 



> Straw man.  My criticisms of the Israeli government have nothing to do with how I feel about Israelis as a people.  Maybe you conflate a government with its people but I don't.  I even have relatives in Israel.  There are also Israelis that have similar criticisms of their government.



And how many Israelis over there are happy about this revolution? How many Israelis are optimistic that this will not lead to a war? The fact that you utterly dismiss these concerns without second thought shows just how little you feel about the Israelis. 



> Straw man. There is a lot of unknowns about what is going to happen now but the future of their country is for them to decide.  Not you and not me.



Most of the concerns and criticisms come from the fact that popular uprisings are often co-opted by demagogues after the original government is overthrown. It was the case with the French, it was the case with the Iranians, it happened in Thailand. Ever heard of Orwell's Animal Farm? The Pigs ended up being just as bad as the Farmer. 



> Its hard to change the status quo especially if there are so many people doing all they can to keep things the same but such changes are the story of human history.  There are failed revolutions sure but there are also successful ones.  I can tell you that they won't get anywhere waiting for Mubarak to make changes.



Yeah, they might go backwards too. They might end up with another ruler just as incompetent and oppressive. They might start a devastating war and undo years of peace progress within the region. Then you end up with more instability, a regime that is hostile to the US, and the people just as worse of as ever. Pointing that out doesn't make me an imperialist. Its looking at both sides of the fucking picture.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jan 31, 2011)

You'd have to completely ignorant of Egypt since the 80's to think the Muslim Brotherhood (who would receive between 20 to 30% of the vote) would start a disastrous war with Israel for no reason while they depend on tourism money to support their economy, not to mention US aid dollars to support their military. 

The people rallying in the street are doing so because of the lack of economic opportunities. Going to war would practically destroy their economy, which is why the people are angry in the first place. One protester on Al Jazeera was asked to sum up the reason for the protest in one word. He didn't say "freedom", he said "jobs."

This isn't the 60's, economic interdependence and middle-class fury at economic downturns makes wars like that nearly impossible these days. Any party that proposes destroying the Egyptian tourism industry will find themselves without support in the next election.

Let's not even mention the logical problems of trying to dominate a democratic government with less than 30% of the vote.

The Muslim Brotherhood is an absolute non-issue from so many angles that it's laughable at the attention it's getting from people who don't understand the issue. Peter Bergen was on CNN more or less dismissing those people.


----------



## Jin-E (Jan 31, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> For instance, during the 2008 Gaza War the Muslim Brotherhood called for . This would be utterly insane for Egypt to do, they have no legitimate reason for even doing so, and it would result in horrible suffering for the Egyptian people. Yet they still want it. It shows how insane they are.



Allthough i get the concern, its more than likely posturing and empty phrases to back up their "resistance" cred. The article itself says it backfired because Egypt isnt interested in stomaching another war on Israel. Beeing a religiously oriented party does not mean that the Brotherhood will be a Sunni revolutionist version of the Khomeini regime.

Even Saddam spouted things about sending "thousands of martyrs" and we know how credible that threat was.


----------



## xenopyre (Jan 31, 2011)

For all of you fearmongerers about the Muslim brotherhood , they are rallying  with the secular parties and appointing a secular leader . Egypt will not become a theocratic regime the secularists are too powerfull for that and Egypt have a strong culture of secularism  since Egypt was a pionneer in the arabic secularist movement alongside with Syria and Tunisia . 

Edit : crap one of the stupidest political moves ever , according to Aljazeera: Pope shenouda vocal his support for Mubarak and calls Egyptian Christians to quit the protests , stupid move is stupid Shenouda  .


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Jan 31, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Again, you are simply using idealism whereas I'm using precedent and evidence for my viewpoint.





> We dont know what will happen in Egypt, but if we even dont give the Egyptians the chance to turn the wheel into another direction with a brighter future, then we are doomed as human beings..



Still same answer.


----------



## Glued (Jan 31, 2011)

Blessings for Egypt.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 31, 2011)

BBC News Headline said:
			
		

> "Egypt army rules out using force"



Fair thee well Mubarak


----------



## dreams lie (Jan 31, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> For all of you fearmongerers about the Muslim brotherhood , they are rallying  with the secular parties and appointing a secular leader . Egypt will not become a theocratic regime the secularists are too powerfull for that and Egypt have a strong culture of secularism  since Egypt was a pionneer in the arabic secularist movement alongside with Syria and Tunisia .


LOL like the protesters aligned with the Muslim brotherhood are not capable of lying


----------



## Mael (Jan 31, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThvBJMzmSZI[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> i hope the blockade is removed first and then war declared on the illegal state of Israel



This is why a lot of the world hopes the Middle East dies in a fire.

Congratulations on confirming the fears of anti-Muslim folk.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jan 31, 2011)

Mael said:


> This is why a lot of the world hopes the Middle East dies in a fire.
> 
> Congratulations on confirming the fears of anti-*Islamic* folk.



fixed.

And wuts dis ? Mael not using macros from dA ? 

Must be the Apocalypse


----------



## Bleach (Jan 31, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> fixed.



It's probably anti-Islamic and anti-Muslim....


----------



## Sanity Check (Feb 1, 2011)

Protestor campaign slogan = 2 words.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 1, 2011)

i've noticed that slogan, it's pretty neat


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> This is why a lot of the world hopes the Middle East dies in a fire.
> 
> Congratulations on confirming the fears of anti-Muslim folk.



Who gives a damn about your fears? Its the muslims that should fear the West since we are supporting dictators in those countries.


----------



## maj1n (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Who gives a damn about your fears? Its the muslims that should fear the West since we are supporting dictators in those countries.


And many Muslims don't support those dictators? every single Muslim is an innocent lamb that coincidentally their shitty governments got into power without them noticing untill they stepped outside their house one day?


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 1, 2011)

maj1n said:


> And many Muslims don't support those dictators? every single Muslim is an innocent lamb that coincidentally their shitty governments got into power without them noticing untill they stepped outside their house one day?



I never said that. But why should we fear people that seek freedom? Because we dont like how they look or what they believe? Fuck that racism.


----------



## maj1n (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> I never said that. But why should we fear people that seek freedom? Because we dont like how they look or what they believe? Fuck that racism.


Why should Muslims fear the West? the West has done more for the 'muslim world' (or more accurately Arab world) then any other culture, the most damage done to the Muslim world, is done by Muslims.

You need to get out of your 'lets hate teh evil west' and look at things objectively.


----------



## T.D.A (Feb 1, 2011)

Great lolz when maj1n tells others to look at things objectively. #movinghiswayupthisworld


----------



## xenopyre (Feb 1, 2011)

@Maj1n: you mean good things like suporting israel the arabs's nemesis no matter what , or like supporting the dictators just becouse they look after israel's interests , or or like invading Iraq , or maybe like poking its nose in every fucking ineternal matter ? yeah the west is our savior , praised be the west !!


----------



## T.D.A (Feb 1, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> ^^ you mean good things like suporting israel the arabs's nemesis no matter what , or like supporting the dictators just becouse they look after israel's interests , or or like invading Iraq , or maybe like poking its nose in every fucking ineternal matter ? yeah the west is our savior , praised be the west !!



you "west iz evilz foreva" supporter FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 1, 2011)

The West is not supporting Israel no matter what. The West is not supporting dictators just because they look for Israel's interests. The West did not invade Iraq. In fact, from several parts of the West there was a reaction against the Invasion of Iraq.


Westernphobia and Antiwestern nationalism seem to be an existing problem that should be overcome.


----------



## maj1n (Feb 1, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> ^^ you mean good things like suporting israel the arabs's nemesis no matter what ,


yes it is preferable to support the continued existence of countries rather then their demise, contrary to what alot of people think, absolute chaos is not the most preferable option.



			
				xenopyre said:
			
		

> or like supporting the dictators just becouse they look after israel's interests , or or like invading Iraq , or maybe like poking its nose in every fucking ineternal matter ? yeah the west is our savior , praised be the west !!


You mean America? America isn't 'the whole West' you know? kind of like how the actions of Iran don't represent All Arabia?

Your kind of attitude leads to the unfortunate results that people in Denmark and Netherlands get killed by radical Muslims because they feel 'The West' is out to get them, when really your almost solely talking about America.

Where is that objectivity ?

A lesson for you, hatred is not necessarily bad and can be good, hating the wrong person or group, is always bad.


----------



## T.D.A (Feb 1, 2011)

the two world wars were the arabs fault clearly.


----------



## iander (Feb 1, 2011)

maj1n said:


> Why should Muslims fear the West?



Probably because they know about the history of western influence in the region, particularly of the last several decades.  Too many coups, too many western supported dictators.  Too many wars.




maj1n said:


> the West has done more for the 'muslim world' (or more accurately Arab world) then any other culture



Done more what? You are going to have to elaborate on that.




maj1n said:


> You need to get out of your 'lets hate teh evil west' and look at things objectively.



Translation, your rhetoric is not objective but mine is.


----------



## maj1n (Feb 1, 2011)

iander said:


> Probably because they know about the history of western influence in the region, particularly of the last several decades.  Too many coups, too many western supported dictators.  Too many wars.


No, more like inflamed hatred by propagandists, there is no doubt that the West (america) has done many bad things to the middle-east, they also have done many good things.

If you only focus on the bad, and therefore hate from that, and don't even know or understand the good, how is this attitude right?



			
				iander said:
			
		

> Done more what? You are going to have to elaborate on that.


Who is the biggest contributer of foreign aid? its certainly not middle-eastern countries.

Who ended slavery? not the middle-east either.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 1, 2011)

Anyway, about Egypt. I have read a bit more on Egypt, and it seems like in Turkey, the military has power behind scenes, is very popular, and a big factor in Egypt(. But since Egypt is facing some kind of revolution we might see some changes there too. ) Anyway,  talking about the influence of the army, it becomes more apparent when one sees the history of most of their recent governments, and how they were made up, (not only the dictator, but the ministers, those in key positions and so on), and from where the leaders came from.  I wonder what kind of new regime, Egypt will have or if the new leader will come from the military like Mubarak and predecessors did. Or how the new leader will be selected. (Supposing that Mubarak is no more).  

Will we be seeing a completely new regime with big differences or a continuation of the old regime, (technically new) but with new people from the military in the key positions? And a new dictator which means differences foreign and local policies but more or less is still the same (similar) type of regime.  Or would we be seeing something entirely different?  I don't really know and I am still reading on Egypt and watching the events as they unfold.

The military has taken a "we will not use force" position, that I see it at the very least being successful at sustaining the military's  popularity within the people.


----------



## xenopyre (Feb 1, 2011)

maj1n said:


> yes it is preferable to support the continued existence of countries rather then their demise, contrary to what alot of people think, absolute chaos is not the most preferable option.


Nobody is talking about the destruction of israel , but about siding with israel in every matter , almost 90% of the Vitos used in the UN were in israel's favor . 



> You mean America? America isn't 'the whole West' you know? kind of like how the actions of Iran don't represent All Arabia?
> 
> Your kind of attitude leads to the unfortunate results that people in Denmark and Netherlands get killed by radical Muslims because they feel 'The West' is out to get them, when really your almost solely talking about America.
> 
> ...


i'm not saying the west is evil and have to be destoyed but , the westernal countries only looks for their own interests(and cant really be blamed for it but then again , evreybody should look for their own interests ) disregarding everbody else's opinion , and i perssonally think that we Arabs should do the same .
Also blind hatred in never good .


----------



## maj1n (Feb 1, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> Nobody is talking about the destruction of israel , but about siding with israel in every matter , almost 90% of the Vitos used in the UN were in israel's favor .


If i recall, Obama doesn't side with Israel's settlements issue every time

'every matter' you say?



			
				xenopyre said:
			
		

> i'm not saying the west is evil and have to be destoyed but , the westernal countries only looks for their own interests(and cant really be blamed for it but then again , evreybody should look for their own interests ) disregarding everbody else's opinion , and i perssonally think that we Arabs should do the same .
> Also blind hatred in never good .


Wrong.

*Commitment to Development Index 2010 *


Do you know what the findings are? Western countries by and large, are the largest supporters of Aid, environmental protection, economic development etc, for the world.

Every country in the world has done much wrong, but the Western countries are by far, the most civil and done the most good.

The fact that Western countries get the most hatred despite this fact, points to only one thing, people are fucking stupid and blindly believe in propaganda or whatever suits their particular grudge, all too easily.


----------



## iander (Feb 1, 2011)

maj1n said:


> No, more like inflamed hatred by propagandists



Not much need for propagandists when another country is supporting a dictator in your country or using its military to occupy your country.  As a US intelligence report once said, one of the best recruiters for Al Qaeda is US foreign policy.



maj1n said:


> there is no doubt that the West (america) has done many bad things to the middle-east, they also have done many good things.



The US does not deserve all the blame.  Many other western countries like the UK and France have also done many bad things in the Middle East.  You are right that is has not all been bad.  Iran has not been universally bad for the region either but I wouldn't say that the region doesn't have legitimate reasons for not trusting it.



maj1n said:


> If you only focus on the bad, and therefore hate from that, and don't even know or understand the good, how is this attitude right?



I don't think people from the Middle East should hate for example Americans or Brits.  That would be irrational and counter productive.  Rather, I think they should be reaching out to them.  However,  I do think that the Middle East has a lot of reason to not trust for example the US or UK government (as opposed to its people).  Not just for what has been done in the past but for what is happening right now as well.



maj1n said:


> Who is the biggest contributer of foreign aid? its certainly not middle-eastern countries.
> 
> Who ended slavery? not the middle-east either.



First off, how much of that aid goes towards military spending used by dictators to suppress their people? Second, how much good is giving money when your soldiers are occupying your country or you are preventing them from achieving meaningful reforms.  You may be giving a billion dollars in economic aid (how much of that is actually helping the people?) but you may also be giving another 2 billion in military funding.

Slavery? What are you talking about?


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 1, 2011)

Here is an interesting article I found. 

Do U.S. Ties To Egypt's Military Give It Leverage?

by Tom Bowman




February 1, 2011

How Egypt's military handles the thousands of protesters marching Tuesday through the streets of Cairo could decide the country's future. Egypt's military for the past three decades has received billions of dollars in U.S. aid and even sends its most promising officers to study in American war colleges. Yet for all that, it's not at all clear whether the U.S. has leverage with Egypt's military leadership.

When he ran the Army War College a decade ago, retired Maj. Gen. Robert Scales got to know the future leaders of the Egyptian military.

"The Egyptian military has been very careful to send only the best and the brightest and the most promising officers to American schools," he said.

Today, most of the American military schools — from West Point in New York to National Defense University in Washington — have an Egyptian officer sitting in the classroom. Right now, one is even on a class trip to San Francisco.

Those relationships, Scales said, build what he calls enormous influence with Egypt, "not just because of the schools, but because of almost 30 years of intimate contact from exercises to the sale of military hardware like M1 tanks and F-16 fighter jets."

That's hundreds of F-16s and plans for 1,200 M1 tanks as part of the more than $1 billion in U.S. military aid Egypt gets every year.

So it wasn't unusual last week that the top Egyptian officer, Army Lt. Gen. Sami Enan, was in Washington for talks with his Pentagon friends. When Egypt descended into chaos, Enan cut his visit short. Later, the top U.S. officer, Adm. Mike Mullen, called the Egyptian general and pledged to continue the strong relationship between the two countries.

I don't think there's anything the U.S. can do that's really decisive in terms of what's happening on the streets in Egypt or in terms of determining how the Egyptian government views what's happening on the streets. It seems to very much have its own momentum.

- Jon Alterman, CSIS

But Jon Alterman, who runs the Middle East program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said the Pentagon may be kidding itself if it thinks there's a special bond.

"The Egyptians have been very careful not to allow tight relationships between the U.S. and Egyptian officers to develop, some would argue to prevent a pro-American coup in the military," Alterman said.

There's a history of coups: The military toppled the government a half-century ago, and President Hosni Mubarak was an air force general.

In the face of mounting protests, Mubarak has tried to pull the military closer to him. He has reshuffled his Cabinet and placed senior Egyptian generals in top positions.

Alterman said the U.S. can do little more than watch the unfolding revolt.

"I don't think there's anything the U.S. can do that's really decisive in terms of what's happening on the streets in Egypt or in terms of determining how the Egyptian government views what's happening on the streets," he said. "It seems to very much have its own momentum."

That momentum has surprised the young Egyptian military officers in the classrooms at National Defense University, a short distance from the White House.

"They were watching with everybody the news and could not believe what was going on and how fast it went," said Gawdat Bahgat, an Egyptian who teaches national security at the university.

He said the class of international officers spent an hour talking about events in Egypt, but the Egyptian officers had little to say and echoed the government line.

"They work for the government and they see it from the government's perspective, so to some extent I understand," he said.

Alterman said what's unknown is what role these and other younger officers will play in the growing crisis.

"The 1952 coup was made by colonels, and we have no idea where the colonels are in any of this," he said.

So far, Alterman said, the colonels haven't had to make a choice.


----------



## maj1n (Feb 1, 2011)

iander said:


> Not much need for propagandists when another country is supporting a dictator in your country or using its military to occupy your country.  As a US intelligence report once said, one of the best recruiters for Al Qaeda is US foreign policy.


What?

didn't you read wiki-leaks? America has aided the dissidents of Egypts 'against' the Government, although its more in trying to defend the rebel leaders.

*
Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising*


But of course this doesn't suit your anti-west perspective does it?



			
				iander said:
			
		

> The US does not deserve all the blame.  Many other western countries like the UK and France have also done many bad things in the Middle East.  You are right that is has not all been bad.  Iran has not been universally bad for the region either but I wouldn't say that the region doesn't have legitimate reasons for not trusting it.


Then why did you say 'the west' when almost every single claim you made is America?



			
				iander said:
			
		

> I don't think people from the Middle East should hate for example Americans or Brits.  That would be irrational and counter productive.  Rather, I think they should be reaching out to them.  However,  I do think that the Middle East has a lot of reason to not trust for example the US or UK government (as opposed to its people).  Not just for what has been done in the past but for what is happening right now as well.


The middle-eastern culture goes further then 'mistrust' but hatred, and that is bad, and wrong.



			
				iander said:
			
		

> First off, how much of that aid goes towards military spending used by dictators to suppress their people? Second, how much good is giving money when your soldiers are occupying your country or you are preventing them from achieving meaningful reforms.  You may be giving a billion dollars in economic aid (how much of that is actually helping the people?) but you may also be giving another 2 billion in military funding.


What? i'm sorry but when lets say, Sweden, gives the largest amount of aid, somehow their responsible for what America does?

Foreign aid is distinct to military aid, and their not the same.

Maybe you need to stop crystallizing 'the west' as shouldering the responsibility of America.



			
				iander said:
			
		

> Slavery? What are you talking about?


The European powers, notable France and Britain, ended slavery throughout the entire world, particularly for the Middle-east, especially after the world wars when they got control of much of the land.

E.g. Queen Elizabeth ordered many arab countries to end slavery.

A historical fact conveniently overlooked


----------



## Mael (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Who gives a damn about your fears? Its the muslims that should fear the West since we are supporting dictators in those countries.



Love that dick-ridin', don't ya?

You clearly don't understand just how stupid his post was.  You clearly don't understand a revolution and then war on Israel will get Egypt's ass stomped.  You clearly don't understand how thinks fucking work in geopolitics.  Did you go to DeVry or something?

And thanks for that neg calling Outlandish out on his bullshit.  Good to know you and him are of like mind...thus making you look all the dumber.


----------



## Darklyre (Feb 1, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> Nobody is talking about the destruction of israel , but about siding with israel in every matter , almost 90% of the Vitos used in the UN were in israel's favor .



There are more resolutions against Israel than the rest of the Middle East _combined_. If the UN is going to be pants-on-head retarded and pop a boner only for Israel while ignoring Arab and African transgressions then I'm all for vetoing them into uselessness.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 1, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> Edit : crap one of the stupidest political moves ever , according to Aljazeera: Pope shenouda vocal his support for Mubarak and calls Egyptian Christians to quit the protests , stupid move is stupid Shenouda  .



He's probably worried that if the Muslim Brotherhood gets increased influence, things will indeed detoriate for the Coptic community. Yes, i am aware that the Brotherhood said they wont discriminate against Christians, but it remains to be seen if they will actually follow it in practice. F.example, what will happen the next time a supposed convert to Islam is supposedly "kidnapped" by the church? With the removal of the heavy hand of authoritarian security forces, the possibility of pogroms against Copts under that scenario cant be excluded


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Feb 1, 2011)

Now on the heals of the uprising in Egypt the DHS and FBI are citing threats to Wall Street coincidence I don't think so I think Obama doesn't want US citizens paying attention to whats going on in Egypt cause he is afraid the citizens in his country might revolt as well.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 1, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> Now on the heals of the uprising in Egypt the DHS and FBI are citing threats to Wall Street coincidence I don't think so I think Obama doesn't want US citizens paying attention to whats going on in Egypt cause he is afraid the citizens in his country might revolt as well.


bwhahaha, lol!

What world do you live in? Because it sure isn't the real world.


----------



## Xyloxi (Feb 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> Love that dick-ridin', don't ya?
> 
> You clearly don't understand just how stupid his post was.  You clearly don't understand a revolution and then war on Israel will get Egypt's ass stomped.  You clearly don't understand how thinks fucking work in geopolitics.  Did you go to DeVry or something?
> 
> And thanks for that neg calling Outlandish out on his bullshit.  Good to know you and him are of like mind...thus making you look all the dumber.



Agreed, I don't see how a war against Israel is in Egypt's favour at all, as according to Mega's statistics Israel seems to have the superior force. Personally I'm getting tired of all these Middle Eastern antics going on and part of me would like to act like it isn't happening.

I assume DeVry is a bad university in the US or something?


----------



## Mael (Feb 1, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> Now on the heals of the uprising in Egypt the DHS and FBI are citing threats to Wall Street coincidence I don't think so I think Obama doesn't want US citizens paying attention to whats going on in Egypt cause he is afraid the citizens in his country might revolt as well.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Feb 1, 2011)

It always comes back to Israel, doesn't it?


----------



## mayumi (Feb 1, 2011)

appearently Jordan dissolved its cabinet, but i am actually ok with the Jordan king as are the Jordan people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12336960


----------



## Mael (Feb 1, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It always comes back to Israel, doesn't it?



Of course, because God forbid Arabs look inwards to their own issues, save for possibly Egypt this one time.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It always comes back to Israel, doesn't it?



They're people too dude, they're the ones who'll have to deal with this.

My position is okay, we should be against autocrats on general principles. But don't blindly leap into the situation or assume anything can be better than Mubarak or that we will automatically see the erruption of a lovely improved state.

And exspecially don't take a holier-than-thou attitude when you won't have to live with the consequences.

Still, keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Feb 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> They're people too dude, they're the ones who'll have to deal with this.
> 
> My position is okay, we should be against autocrats on general principles. But don't blindly leap into the situation or assume anything can be better than Mubarak or that we will automatically see the erruption of a lovely improved state.
> 
> ...



WTF are you ranting to me about this for?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> WTF are you ranting to me about this for?



You were there.

Or did someone steal your account?


----------



## Sanity Check (Feb 1, 2011)

Never have to look very far for a new level of dumb on these topics.  



> *Sarah Palin: Media Boycott Will Keep Me From Being 'Blamed' For Egypt Uprising*
> 
> At a speech in Reno on Saturday, Sarah Palin said she thinks a recently discussed media boycott of her is good--because then she won't get "blamed" for the uprising in Egypt.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Never have to look very far for a new level of dumb on these topics.



That's not dumb, that's actually almost witty apart from her victimisation complex.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Feb 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> You were there.
> 
> Or did someone steal your account?



I think we are having a breach in communication here. "It always comes back to Israel, doesn't it?", with "it" being the blame. I'm saying the same people seem to always find Israel at fault when something goes down in that region regardless of their participation (or lack thereof) in those events.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 1, 2011)

Question to the anti-westerners in this thread. 

Don't you feel it is ironic that you use your being against the Iraq war and against afghan war in the context of being against dictators in the middle east. 

I mean when you say, it would have been better if America had left Saddam in power, I don't quite see how you can then criticize Mega for saying the same now but in the context of Mubarak.
Especially considering in relative terms Mubarak is no where close to the asshat that Saddam was. 

The more I see of the protests, the more I support them. But I still know very little of what is going on. So it's hard for me to judge, but it seems strange that you are attacking Israel for the very same argument you hold for Iraq.


----------



## Sanity Check (Feb 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> That's not dumb, that's actually almost witty apart from her victimisation complex.




Being an attention whore who goes off tangent on important issues, turning a legitimate discussion into a narcisstic 'me, me, me, me, me' rant, is dumb. 

Cease and desist with giving her wayy too much credit, plz e plz.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I think we are having a breach in communication here. "It always comes back to Israel, doesn't it?", with "it" being the blame. I'm saying the same people seem to always find Israel at fault when something goes down in that region regardless of their participation (or lack thereof) in those events.



Ah, from the previous post I assumed you were saying "Is Israel's safety is the only concern you West Pig-Dogs?"


----------



## Degelle (Feb 1, 2011)

These Muslim haters always have a way to make every topic related to the Middle East into a cry festival of Israel.

Why do you care so much about Israel, who wouldn't even lift a finger for you? It's so ridiculous. At least try to be partial, so that your obvious racism doesn't stand out so much.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 1, 2011)

maj1n said:


> Why should Muslims fear the West? the West has done more for the 'muslim world' (or more accurately Arab world) then any other culture, the most damage done to the Muslim world, is done by Muslims.
> 
> You need to get out of your 'lets hate teh evil west' and look at things objectively.



What the fuck did the West do good in that region? What did France do in Algeria again? Do you even know how cruel they were? Who invaded North Africa and used the people as slaves? Why were back then Jews and Arabs even fighting together against Europeans? Who supported the Shah in Persia? Who supported Saddam in the 80?s and afterwards started an illegimite war against the same person ? Who is supporting the Egyptian, Jordan and Saudi dictators? Who helped the Mujahedin in Afghanistan and therefore made the Taliban possible? Who told Saddam to invade Quwait and afterwards roflstomped him? Who is, up till today, vetoing EVERY decision against Israel no matter how wrong it is and therefore giving them a free-ride for shitting on international laws? Why are the Americans eagerly forcing the Hariri-Tribunal in Den Haag even though they dont even RECOGNIZE that court themselves and therefore risk a civil war? Who is trading countries in the Middle East? (Giving Syria power in Lebanon back for being against Iran, denying the right of Kurds in Turkey for being buddy with Turkey). Are you serious? 

Even though the list of the good things the West did for the Arab might be as long as the negative list, I am pretty sure that the world in the Middle East would have been better off without the intervention of the West in the Arab world.



> Who ended slavery? not the middle-east either.



Who started slavery?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Being an attention whore who goes off tangent on important issues, turning a legitimate discussion into a narcisstic 'me, me, me, me, me' rant, is dumb.
> 
> Cease and desist with giving her wayy too much credit, plz e plz.



It's not

The joke is after the Arizona shooting everyone pinned the blame on her.

Now there's a media blackout on her she's making the joke no one will eb able to do it.

It's a joke on what you're complaining about so well done, Palin just pwned you.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Who started slavery?



Ancient Egyptians?


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Who started slavery?


Ancient Middle East city states.


----------



## Mael (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> Who started slavery?



Wasn't white people.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> Love that dick-ridin', don't ya?
> 
> You clearly don't understand just how stupid his post was.  You clearly don't understand a revolution and then war on Israel will get Egypt's ass stomped.  You clearly don't understand how thinks fucking work in geopolitics.  Did you go to DeVry or something?
> 
> And thanks for that neg calling Outlandish out on his bullshit.  Good to know you and him are of like mind...thus making you look all the dumber.



You clearly don't understand just how stupid this post was. You clearly don't understand a revolution, the right of self-determination and the end of tyranny will help Egypt prosper again. You clearly don't understand how thinks fucking work in a free world. Did you go to _insert some community college _or something?


----------



## Sanity Check (Feb 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> It's not
> 
> The joke is after the Arizona shooting everyone pinned the blame on her.
> 
> ...




The Arizona shooting and Egypt are 2 distinctively different events.

Palin suggesting there is similarity between the two which warrants drawing parallels between them, is dumb.  

More likely, its a smoke and mirrors gambit on here part intended to avoid having to offer an opinion due to her being unable to find Egypt on a map, much less offer interesting, accurate or even diverting commentary on the topic.

...


----------



## Adonis (Feb 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> Wasn't white people.



Y'all just perfected it to an art form.

You're like the Microsoft of slavery.


@Immortal1tachi

You want to know the secret of making Palin go away? Stop talking about her. Stop having news channels have panels to criticize every insipid tweet and gaffe.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 1, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> Ancient Middle East city states.





The Pink Ninja said:


> Ancient Egyptians?





Mael said:


> Wasn't white people.



There weren?t slaves in the Ancients? Didn?t the US build on their foundations on the soils of Rome?


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 1, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> The Arizona shooting and Egypt are 2 distinctively different events.
> 
> Palin suggesting there is similarity between the two which warrants drawing parallels between them, is dumb.
> 
> ...



Palin tries to make all subjects about herself, and you are trying to make this discussion about Palin.


----------



## Mael (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> You clearly don't understand just how stupid his post was. You clearly don't understand a revolution, the right of self-determination and the end of tyranny will help Egypt prosper again. You clearly don't understand how thinks fucking work in a free world. Did you go to _insert some community college _or something?



Oh that's cute...you reversed my post with your language.  How creative.

See, calling for war on Israel has NOTHING to do with this Egyptian revolution.  All he did was affirm the knee-jerk attitude amongst some Muslims and anti-Israel folk that somehow, someway, the dissatisfaction with Hosni Mubarak is a rallying cry to go after Israel.  It was a stupid post and it seems your asinine logic won't own up to agreeing with it so foolishly.



Adonis said:


> Y'all just perfected it to an art form.
> 
> You're like the Microsoft of slavery.



Doesn't mean we started it though.



Kimimarox said:


> There weren´t slaves in the Ancients? Didn´t the US build on their foundations on the soils of Rome?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0[/YOUTUBE]

Wow...are you this dumb?  I mean, are you THIS dumb?

You really believe that somehow the ancient Babylonians, Nubians, Sumerians, Egyptians, etc., seem to be irrelevant and only white people are?

Wow...I mean...holy shit.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> There weren´t slaves in the Ancients? Didn´t the US build on their foundations on the soils of Rome?


There was slavery in ancient middle east before there was a Rome, before there was a Greece.

Really, the only thing this shows is how absolutely biased you are, and try to blame EVERYTHING on "the west".


----------



## Degelle (Feb 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> You really believe that somehow the ancient Babylonians, Nubians, Sumerians, Egyptians, etc., seem to be irrelevant and only white people are?
> 
> Wow...I mean...holy shit.



Anti-Racism is just another word for anti-white, you didn't know that?


----------



## hyakku (Feb 1, 2011)

Degelle said:


> These Muslim haters always have a way to make every topic related to the Middle East into a cry festival of Israel.
> 
> Why do you care so much about Israel, who wouldn't even lift a finger for you? It's so ridiculous. At least try to be partial, so that your obvious racism doesn't stand out so much.



Two things. First, if I know Israel wont lift a finger to hurt me, i also know they won't send planes flying into my financial infrastructure. Second, geopolitics, please learn about them. 

Your stupidity is disappointing as it's apparent you have some semblance of an education, yet your blind, vitriolic hatred of Jewish people tempers that wit and acumen by making you post drivel that just doesn't make logical sense. If you have a problem with america being self interested and thus supporting Israel, fine, but don't act like you don't know we are getting material benefits in exchange for our allegiance, its not becoming of an intellectual.


----------



## Adonis (Feb 1, 2011)

I was kidding, Mael.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> The Arizona shooting and Egypt are 2 distinctively different events.
> 
> Palin suggesting there is similarity between the two which warrants drawing parallels between them, is dumb.
> 
> ...



So basically you're too dumb to get a joke

Made by Palin

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight



Kimimarox said:


> There weren?t slaves in the Ancients? Didn?t the US build on their foundations on the soils of Rome?



It was a joke


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> Love that dick-ridin', don't ya?
> 
> You clearly don't understand just how stupid his post was. You clearly don't understand a revolution and then war on Israel will get Egypt's ass stomped. You clearly don't understand how thinks fucking work in geopolitics. Did you go to DeVry or something?





Mael said:


> Oh that's cute...you reversed my post with your language.  How creative.
> 
> See, calling for war on Israel has NOTHING to do with this Egyptian revolution.  All he did was affirm the knee-jerk attitude amongst some Muslims and anti-Israel folk that somehow, someway, the dissatisfaction with Hosni Mubarak is a rallying cry to go after Israel.  It was a stupid post and it seems your asinine logic won't own up to agreeing with it so foolishly.



..... Huh?


----------



## Mael (Feb 1, 2011)

Adonis said:


> I was kidding, Mael.



I know.  I forgot the 



Kimimarox said:


> ..... Huh?



Did you even pay attention to Outlandish?  His post was exactly that of his user name.


----------



## Degelle (Feb 1, 2011)

hyakku said:


> Two things. First, if I know Israel wont lift a finger to hurt me, i also know they won't send planes flying into my financial infrastructure. Second, geopolitics, please learn about them.


USS Liberty, King David Hotel.

BAM! discussion over. They don't give a shit about you, you're only regarded as so many meat-packages of stock shares.



hyakku said:


> Your stupidity is disappointing as it's apparent you have some semblance of an education, yet your blind, vitriolic hatred of Jewish people tempers that wit and acumen by making you post drivel that just doesn't make logical sense. If you have a problem with america being self interested and thus supporting Israel, fine, but don't act like you don't know we are getting material benefits in exchange for our allegiance, its not becoming of an intellectual.



Useless comment.

But hey, if you're so willing to throw away your tax money to thugs, and watch your sisters, brothers, sons and daughters dying on battlefields for the sake of Israel, which is based on a religion who literally detests your Christian nation, by all means join the Army and head towards the meatgrinder.

Which material benefits are you talking about?


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 1, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> There was slavery in ancient middle east before there was a Rome, before there was a Greece.
> 
> Really, the only thing this shows is how absolutely biased you are, and try to blame EVERYTHING on "the west".



1. If I am wrong - then I am wrong. If what you say is true, then I have learned something again. Cool. 

2. So even if I was wrong and the first slaves were held in Egypt. What does slavery has to do with this revolution today? Did "The West" free the world from slavery? Was it really an achievement? Wasnt that their fucking obligation after holding half of the world as slaves and killing millions of people?

3. If, lets say, a Russian started to bitch about the West, I would equally defend the West. In this case, I am not, because I dont have a lot of reasons to be proud to be either an European  when it comes to the Middle East issues.


----------



## Sanity Check (Feb 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> So basically you're too dumb to get a joke
> 
> Made by Palin
> 
> Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight




Excuses, excuses.

I have known rocks smarter than Palin.  At least they knew when to keep their mouths shut and didn't say ridiculous gibberish they tried to pretend was "smart".  

Just because Palin is reputed to have a pair of tits(which haven't been seen since she was born, although conspiracy theorists abound) pplz brains are affected by the gravitational fields emitted by those twin mounds which causes them to think and say: complete nonsense, like you're doing now.

There's nothing clever or funny about what Palin said.  What she said, didn't even make sense outside the realms of egocentrism psycho therapy, drama queen 101 and attention whore USA.  Thus, its not a joke.

Jokes on you, bub.


----------



## Coteaz (Feb 1, 2011)

Egypt rioting -> Palin -> Slavery -> Jews

???

Gud thread


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> Did you even pay attention to Outlandish?  His post was exactly that of his user name.





Mael said:


> This is why a lot of the world hopes the Middle East dies in a fire.
> Congratulations on confirming the fears of anti-Muslim folk.



I am aware of his sentence, but I wasnt referring to him, at all. Of course a war would be wrong, the end of Egypt and no one wants it. Sorry if you took it wrong or lets say, I took it wrong. But I am constantly listening to the fears of Obama, Merkel, Sarkozy, surely Israel and whoever is there and its just plain annoying that instead of supporting the Egyptian people and actively pursue a way out of their suffocation, its all about.. " What if they do this or that, we will be doomed". A lot of the Western media is like "WHAT IF THEM MOSLEMZ START A WAR" and show an angry, bearned and Middle-Eastern looking dude on the front cover instead of shooting policemen against the people.


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 1, 2011)

Degelle said:


> USS Liberty, King David Hotel.
> 
> BAM! discussion over. They don't give a shit about you, you're only regarded as so many meat-packages of stock shares.



Events decades ago? Really? If so, then modern Germany is just as much a threat to the U.S. as Israel is. In fact, even more so as events Germany committed around the time of the King David Hotel bombing are far worse then the hotel bombing. Modern Germany is evil! Not to mention neither were attacks on American civilians and neither can be compared to 9/11 in any way.





> Useless comment.
> 
> But hey, if you're so willing to throw away your tax money to thugs, and watch your sisters, brothers, sons and daughters dying on battlefields for the sake of Israel, which is based on a religion who literally detests your Christian nation, by all means join the Army and head towards the meatgrinder.
> 
> Which material benefits are you talking about?



Bit odd you claim this considering the U.S. has never fought a war for Israel. Can you name one and explain how/why? I can name wars that the U.S. has fought to protect Arab nations however, in fact while the U.S. has no significant military presence in Israel it does so for a great many Muslim countries.

And Sarah Palin just owned 1mmortal 1tachi.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 1, 2011)

Has to be said, despite Al Jazeera's obvious sympathies for the protests, its coverage has been impressive and far better than BBC and CNN.


----------



## hyakku (Feb 1, 2011)

Degelle said:


> USS Liberty, King David Hotel.
> 
> BAM! discussion over. They don't give a shit about you, you're only regarded as so many meat-packages of stock shares.



What? Neither one of those were civilian attacks on the US. I mean you can stretch the truth in extremes and somehow liken the king david hotel to an international attack, but to say they were attacking American civilians specifically is reaching. Also, its 2011, not 1946, by that logic we should all the the Germans and Japanese to no end. He USS liberty has been closed, and again, its not a civilian attack. I know your beliefs cloud your judgement when it comes to Israel, and theres likely nothing I can do to convince you that it wasnt some Zionist plot in 67, so we'll have to leave it there.




> Useless comment.
> 
> But hey, if you're so willing to throw away your tax money to thugs, and watch your sisters, brothers, sons and daughters dying on battlefields for the sake of Israel, which is based on a religion who literally detests your Christian nation, by all means join the Army and head towards the meatgrinder.
> 
> Which material benefits are you talking about?



Well one, a nation that misdirects a lot of Islamic extremism from us towards them, and they are capable to a large extent of dealing with it, alleviating a great deal of burden for us. While you and many others may feel not having a presence in a resource rich region is crucial in and energy dependent economy, history does nit support this na?vet?. I'm not into the whole religion gambit so that doesnt bother me.

Why do you dislike Israel so much when there are nations much fouler in existence?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Has to be said, despite Al Jazeera's obvious sympathies for the protests, its coverage has been impressive and far better than BBC and CNN.



Pft, the fact they're running their own agenda couldn't be more obvious if they brought out a manifesto.


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 1, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Has to be said, despite Al Jazeera's obvious sympathies for the protests, its coverage has been impressive and far better than BBC and CNN.



It lying has been fairly disconcerting. Such as the claim that "Israel is sending equipment to Egypt" to "help Mubarak kill protesters". Obvious BS meant to harm Mubarak.

I think we should strike back by saying we support the protesters and will continue to aid them as we always have.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:
			
		

> Pft, the fact they're running their own agenda couldn't be more obvious if they brought out a manifesto.



Nothing different then what Western channels did in the colour revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia. 

Since Egyptians officials practically boicott the channel, its not like they can present their side of the story. 

The photoshots, range of interviews and "live" feeling is far more exciting to watch than BBC/CNN inviting overrated pundits from various think tanks.




Megaharrison said:


> It lying has been fairly disconcerting. Such as the claim that "Israel is sending equipment to Egypt" to "help Mubarak kill protesters". Obvious BS meant to harm Mubarak.
> 
> I think we should strike back by saying we support the protesters and will continue to aid them as we always have.



Im talking about the channels international edition, not the Arabic language one(which i assume you refer to).


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Nothing different then what Western channels did in the colour revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia.



Since Egyptians officials practically boicott the channel, its not like they can present their side of the story. 

The photoshots, range of interviews and "live" feeling is far more *exciting* to watch than BBC/CNN inviting overrated pundits from various think tanks.[/quote]

So you just want to get your jollies?



> Im talking about the channels international edition, not the Arabic language one(which i assume you refer to).



So just the one they present to Western suckers like you rather than what they think showing they do, infact, have a serious agenda of their own?


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:
			
		

> So you just want to get your jollies?



No, im interested in watching a monumentally important historic event live as it happens. 



			
				The Pink Ninja said:
			
		

> So just the one they present to Western suckers like you rather than what they think showing they do, infact, have a serious agenda of their own?



I like how you think they have concocted some nefarious plot here. And what is that "serious agenda"? And no, they arent covering it in a disproportionate amount simply because Mubarak is an American ally, since they did so during the Iranian protests as well

But yes, since its an Arab channel, it's principle watchers are Arabs, and the story is a landmark event in the Arab world, did you honestly expect that people would report this story in a bland, emotionless and distanced way? In a region which until recently have only known state controlled media, do you think it would make sense for the channel to be seen as backing Mubarak?

Reporting dubious rumours in the heat of the moment does not invalidate their overall coverage.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

> I like how you think they have concocted some nefarious plot here.



I don't need to concoct it. Mega just showed you they were playing to the audience and pushing an agenda which include anti-Israelism.

But hey, if you're admitting their rather gigantic bias don't cite them as a source with favourable comparisons to Western media.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> They're people too dude, they're the ones who'll have to deal with this.
> 
> My position is okay, we should be against autocrats on general principles. But don't blindly leap into the situation or assume anything can be better than Mubarak or that we will automatically see the erruption of a lovely improved state.
> 
> ...



I'm people too dude, so are my egyptian friends, and we'll all breathe a sigh of relief when Egypt isn't living under a dictatorship.  I'm people and i'll be happy when egyptians don't start pointing the finger at US for supporting their dictator. I'm people and if egyptians never kamikaze a plane into my neighborhood, i'll be all the better for it.


----------



## Degelle (Feb 1, 2011)

hyakku said:


> What? Neither one of those were civilian attacks on the US. I mean you can stretch the truth in extremes and somehow liken the king david hotel to an international attack, but to say they were attacking American civilians specifically is reaching. Also, its 2011, not 1946, by that logic we should all the the Germans and Japanese to no end. He USS liberty has been closed, and again, its not a civilian attack. I know your beliefs cloud your judgement when it comes to Israel, and theres likely nothing I can do to convince you that it wasnt some Zionist plot in 67, so we'll have to leave it there.



Doesn't change a single thing. Nothing has changed in the scope of Zionism since it began. Convince me that it wasnt a Zionist plot? It's an undisputed fact, beyond contestation. I'm simply relaying the truth to you; Israel does not care about you, your family or your nation. As I said; to them you're only regarded as that many meat-packages of stock shares, along with financial and military aid.





hyakku said:


> Well one, a nation that misdirects a lot of Islamic extremism from us towards them, and they are capable to a large extent of dealing with it, alleviating a great deal of burden for us. While you and many others may feel not having a presence in a resource rich region is crucial in and energy dependent economy, history does nit support this naïveté. I'm not into the whole religion gambit so that doesnt bother me.


Silly, silly boy. "Misdirects a lot of Islamic extremism towards us", Israel is one of the reason as to why you're hated! 

Let me make this clear: Ultimately Israel is a country that is of no particular worth the United States. They have no resources you need. Their manpower is minimal. Their association with you is a negative for the United States. Now that's a fact. What you want to do about that fact is entirely different. But for anyone to stand up in the United States and say that support for Israel doesn't hurt you in the Muslim world is to just defy reality.



hyakku said:


> Why do you dislike Israel so much when there are nations much fouler in existence?


Should I like Israel more for their actions because there exist "fouler" nations? Please spare me your deluded sense of right and wrong.

You might as well start to love Nazi Germany since the Bolshevik hellhole known as Soviet Union was ten times worse.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 1, 2011)

Are the Egyptian Protesters really protesting against dictatorship in general or only against Mubarak? I am genuinely asking, so it is not a rhetorical question, since I don't know.


----------



## Pesha (Feb 1, 2011)

Holy Thread Hijacking Batman! how did we get into discussing the "Zionist Plot"?

Megs only pointed out, and rightfully so, the fear that this revolt will cause the area to go into war. And let me tell ya, I had quite enough of that in Lebanon war 2!
It is no secret that the Egyptians don't like us very much. According to the info on the net, some are going around calling Mubarak an "agent of Israel and the USA". I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty ominous to me. 

Anyways, there is no doubt that the Egyptians deserve to live free, but is this fight truly leading them to freedom, or just another dictatorship? previous middle east experience doesn't really get your hopes up. 

Can we go back discussing Egypt now?

Please forgive me if someone raised those points before, I skimmed through the thread ^_^.

P.S - Degelle, you seem very knowledgeable about us. how about we meet over a cup of coffee next time I'm hanging around Sweden and you can tell me how much of an evil bastard i am? ^_^


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 1, 2011)

Impressive gathering in Cairo. I get the sense that the Egyptian generals will have to drag Mubarak off the throne, he doesn't seem willing to go easily. 

One Egyptian protester was asked about Israel, and he said the notion that they wanted war with Israel was preposterous. He said the protests are secular and that any attempt by extremists to hijack the government would be stopped by the people. 



> Join Date: *Feb 2005*
> Location: Israel
> Posts: *5*


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 1, 2011)

Pesha said:


> Holy Thread Hijacking Batman! how did we get into discussing the "Zionist Plot"?
> 
> Megs only pointed out, and rightfully so, the fear that this revolt will cause the area to go into war. And let me tell ya, I had quite enough of that in Lebanon war 2!
> It is no secret that the Egyptians don't like us very much. According to the info on the net, some are going around calling Mubarak an "agent of Israel and the USA". I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty ominous to me.
> ...



i don't think egyptians will choose a dictatorship if they shake themselves of mubarak, i find the suggestion dubious.

as for who will lead them , they have many options, and right now they have no ability to choose a leader, but maybe within a few months they can have that.


----------



## I can mate (Feb 1, 2011)

Its too bad the military wont crack down on these rioters... The stability of the middle east and a fairly moderate nation are about to go away, if this continues much longer.


----------



## Karsh (Feb 1, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> as for who will lead them , they have many options, and right now they have no ability to choose a leader, but maybe within a few months they can have that.



It seems that they have no proposals whatsoever, just a buzz about El Baradei.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 1, 2011)

I can mate said:


> Its too bad the military wont crack down on these rioters... The stability of the middle east and a fairly moderate nation are about to go away, if this continues much longer.



troll with a troll opinion.  

why should egyptians sacrifice their freedom for stability for nations with more freedom?



Karsh said:


> It seems that they have no proposals whatsoever, just a buzz about El Baradei.



i'm thinking the military commander of the armed forces will be the defacto leader , since he says wether to stomp the protestors or not.


----------



## I can mate (Feb 1, 2011)

> troll with a troll opinion.
> 
> why should egyptians sacrifice their freedom for stability for nations with more freedom?



because all experiments of this nature(In the ME anyways) rapidly fall into a religious dictatorship worse than the one preceding it... Thats why. The west and other moderate nations do not need another crackpot nation taking hold in the ME. In short they wont _get_ any freedom.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 1, 2011)

Breaking: Mubarak will announce he won't run again.


----------



## Karsh (Feb 1, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> i'm thinking the military commander of the armed forces will be the defacto leader , since he says wether to stomp the protestors or not.



Mubarak is supposedly creating a new government, so they could be a vague idea in regards to new governance, I doubt a military commander would be welcomed if democracy is what the Egyptian people want.
What country has ever had a military commader in charge without it being a dictatorship?
I could be missing something of course, though every information I've ever come accross when it comes to this news states El Baradei as the only buzz though questions directed to Egyptians in the streets mostly resulted in no clear idea for the future, only the wish for Mubarak to gtfo.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 1, 2011)

Looks like Mubarak is attempting everything Ben Ali did.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 1, 2011)

Karsh said:


> Mubarak is supposedly creating a new government, so they could be a vague idea in regards to new governance, I doubt a military commander would be welcomed if democracy is what the Egyptian people want.
> What country has ever had a military commader in charge without it being a dictatorship?
> I could be missing something of course, though every information I've ever come accross when it comes to this news states El Baradei as the only buzz though questions directed to Egyptians in the streets mostly resulted in no clear idea for the future, only the wish for Mubarak to gtfo.



i love the assumption that if a revolt doesn't have a stated leader, it's not a real revolt, maybe it's just complainers right?

cmon, the people aren't masses poli sci doctors like dionysius and toby , they just know they don't want to live under mubarak's boot and want some opportunities and freedoms.  

as for the military commander being in charge, if he didn't put down the original revolt, the people would have some faith that he'll transition power over in the form of elections.  it's not a military coup, it's maintaining law and order after the current govt is removed.

@karsh:  many experiments fail prior to successes, i'm not gonna assume democracy will never work there, blowback or not.


----------



## Karsh (Feb 1, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> i love the assumption that if a revolt doesn't have a stated leader, it's not a real revolt, maybe it's just complainers right?
> 
> cmon, the people aren't masses poli sci doctors like dionysius and toby , they just know they don't want to live under mubarak's boot and want some opportunities and freedoms.
> 
> ...



Dunno where you get off assuming about my assumptions really, lol.
Anyway, everyone's different, I'm just saying that there's a bigger probability of things going according to plan if you have a plan in the first place.
You can't possibly make the assumption that not even one of the 83 million people that are supposedly out in the streets couldn't organize beyond point X.
I'm under the opinion that the Egyptian people are perfectly capable of creating their moderate democracy, I just have some misgivings about not having at least some kind of concrete idea for the future if democracy is what they want. Having an experiment entails you having at least something to experiment with anyway.


----------



## Ceria (Feb 1, 2011)

why hasn't someone killed Mubarak yet?


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Feb 1, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Breaking: Mubarak will announce he won't run again.


 Thats nice to know but thats not the point. They want that fucker gone now.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 1, 2011)

Mubarak speaking.....


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Feb 1, 2011)

I can't watch Al-Jazeera English.


----------



## maj1n (Feb 1, 2011)

Kimimarox said:


> What the fuck did the West do good in that region? What did France do in Algeria again? Do you even know how cruel they were? Who invaded North Africa and used the people as slaves? Why were back then Jews and Arabs even fighting together against Europeans? Who supported the Shah in Persia? Who supported Saddam in the 80´s and afterwards started an illegimite war against the same person ? Who is supporting the Egyptian, Jordan and Saudi dictators? Who helped the Mujahedin in Afghanistan and therefore made the Taliban possible? Who told Saddam to invade Quwait and afterwards roflstomped him? Who is, up till today, vetoing EVERY decision against Israel no matter how wrong it is and therefore giving them a free-ride for shitting on international laws? Why are the Americans eagerly forcing the Hariri-Tribunal in Den Haag even though they dont even RECOGNIZE that court themselves and therefore risk a civil war? Who is trading countries in the Middle East? (Giving Syria power in Lebanon back for being against Iran, denying the right of Kurds in Turkey for being buddy with Turkey). Are you serious?
> 
> Even though the list of the good things the West did for the Arab might be as long as the negative list, I am pretty sure that the world in the Middle East would have been better off without the intervention of the West in the Arab world.


No it wouldn't have been, in fact the phenomenon of modernization was possible purely because of the Western powers, primarily, that they beat Ottoman Empire, which allowed amongst other things, Ataturk to modernize Turkey because it broke the power of the Islamists which allowed him room to fight them (ironically, didnt you say it was better for middle-eastern countries to become more Islamic? the shining example held of a modern Islamic country, turkey, was created by fighting Islam by its creator).

While you do list many crimes of western countries in the past, nothing you cite shows me the middle-east would have been 'better' without western intervention, the west supported the Shah certainly, they were overthrown by the Iranians and they now have a *worser* Government, more cruel and backwards.

It is an unfortunate fact that governments aren't like 'fairy tails', we unfortunately cannot always overthrow a government that has shown corruption or oppression, without fully knowing if what were replacing them with, is any better, and from the precedence of Middle-eastern countries, whatever the people prop up as their own Government, ends up being *worse*

You shouldn't use the past crimes of France of using slaves, particularly since it was France and Britain whom ended the practice of slavery in the Middle-east.

Also, simply 'trading' with other countries, is not tantamount to 'supporting dictators' in fact, it is closer to a non-attitude to whom the ruler is, if 'the west' had to decide to trade/not trade with every country depending on whether the Government was a 'dictatorship' in some fashion, you would basically be calling the west to not trade with the Middle-east at all.

Which would collapse the middle-east.



			
				kimimarox said:
			
		

> Who started slavery?


We don't know, many ancient states both middle-eastern and western continued the practice, it was ended by Europe, france and Britain primarily for themselves, then when they forced the middle-east to stop practicing it.

An amazing achievement.



			
				kimimarox said:
			
		

> You clearly don't understand just how stupid this post was. You clearly don't understand a revolution, the right of self-determination and the end of tyranny will help Egypt prosper again. You clearly don't understand how thinks fucking work in a free world. Did you go to insert some community college or something?


Really? Iran would like to have a word with you, as does Hamas.

Overthrowing a government doesn't necessarily end with a better government,especially one 'chosen' by the people, a particularly unfortunate fact in the middle-east.

We will see if the new Egyptian Government (if there is one) lives up to peoples hopes.


----------



## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Feb 1, 2011)

This guy just doesn't want to leave with any kind of dignity.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 1, 2011)

Either he hangs on so that a crony(Suleiman) gets the office in September and hence the continuation of the regime, or he wants to be known in history as the man who "steared" a stable Egypt into democracy to save his shattered reputation, rather than a being kicked out of the country in a humiliating way.

Sure, cant be fun being so reviled by millions of his countrymen, but his arrogant shortsighted authoritarianism led to his downfall.


----------



## Alien (Feb 1, 2011)

CNN's coverage of this is appallingly bad.

"Nobody wants radical change"
"They are celebrating"

lol


----------



## Alien (Feb 1, 2011)

Clashes between pro-Moubarak and anti-government protesters in Alexandria at the moment.


----------



## Bleach (Feb 1, 2011)

Any vids      ?


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 1, 2011)

Bleach said:


> Any vids      ?



Live stream here on the top right


----------



## Alien (Feb 1, 2011)

Stream: 

Edit: ninja'd


----------



## dream (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm glad that Mubarak won't be running for President again.


----------



## Toby (Feb 1, 2011)

According to the Arab news al Arabyia Mubarak may be stepping down from elections held this september, including his son. If that's the case, the potential candidates making a running would be a Brotherhood candidate and somebody, probably head of defense, Sami Enan. If Sami wins it would be a liberal candidate but probably a democracy similar to Turkey, with an army holding a knife over the government in case it decides to abandon a democratic principle. Hopefully it won't come to that.


----------



## Kyousuke (Feb 1, 2011)

President Obama is speaking on the topic right now.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Feb 2, 2011)




----------



## iander (Feb 2, 2011)

CNN flubbed the reaction to Mubarak's speech pretty badly.  I can't tell if it was intentional or just the anchor not knowing what they are talking about.

If Mubarak wants to die on Egyptian soil, I am sure the protesters could have that arranged.  Seriously though, he should end up in the Hague.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Feb 2, 2011)

So, what's happening  ? Can we start shouting "MGS 4 4 REALZ HOMIES!" now ?


----------



## iander (Feb 2, 2011)

Mubarak said he'll step down in September and that him and his son won't run in elections.  He also mentioned some constitutional changes.  The protesters are not amused and want him out now.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 2, 2011)

I believe that Mubarak's Game is Over. I don't see the protesters stopping and he will have to step down. Now.  (or at best delay it for days while the protesters won't stop).


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 2, 2011)

iander said:


> CNN flubbed the reaction to Mubarak's speech pretty badly.  I can't tell if it was intentional or just the anchor not knowing what they are talking about.
> 
> If Mubarak wants to die on Egyptian soil, I am sure the protesters could have that arranged.  Seriously though, he should end up in the Hague.



cnn has shown itself many times to have an agenda, yet it is still the least biased mainstream news in the US, :sigh


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Feb 2, 2011)

Gosh.  I really do hope Mubarak steps down...and the succeeding government doesn't try to fuck with the Suez Canal.  Hopefully everyone else stays out while the Egyptians clean house.

I don't think Mubarak was bad for Egypt initially.  However power inadvertently will go bad if you try to hold on to it too tightly.


----------



## xenopyre (Feb 2, 2011)

Wow , seems that Mubark is copying Ben Ali in every aspect ; Ben Ali made two press conferences , in the first hs said that he will cut off prices but wont step down and that he will punish the protesters severly , which Mubarek copyied to the T in his first speech , now he is copying the second speech of ben Ali , in which he said that he wont run for the 2014 elections and that he was mislead by his entourage and that he will interduce reforms to boost freedom  of speech and lift internet censorship  , he was gone by tommorow afternoon , hope that it will happen in egypt too .


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Feb 2, 2011)

Friendly reminder.  Stay on topic or else


----------



## Alien (Feb 2, 2011)

It's on now. 

Guys riding camels and horses charging onto the square.....


----------



## Raiden (Feb 2, 2011)

Yep, one of CNN's international reporters said rocks are being thrown as if it's a snowball fight.

With elections all the way in September, Mubarack may have to step down in the time being.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 2, 2011)

Right after the prez condemned the protesters for "vandalism and creating unstability", pro-Mubarak forces "suddenly" provoke the protesters to stir up trouble.

Coincidence? I think not.


----------



## Alien (Feb 2, 2011)

_Protesters show on camera police id's they have seized from the attackers._

At least the army is trying to separate them now.


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Feb 2, 2011)

Military Referee
"Personal Foul Pro Mubarak Protestors Number 81 unnecessary roughness


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 2, 2011)

Shit really hit the fan now.

People standing on building roofs throwing rocks and other stuff on the people below.


----------



## Alien (Feb 2, 2011)

_AFP claims from a witness that organisers paid people 100 Egyptian Pounds ($17) to take part in the pro-Mubarak rallies.

"Confirmed: A guy near Lebanon square shouts to another "Want to get 200LE and a mobile to protest for Mubarak?" #Jan25 #Egypt"_
_
twitter: One pro Mubarak demonstrator: Sergeant Yasin Ali Mohamed Ali, from 10th of Ramadan police station. ID 89015191_

@Jin-E: someone tweeted that they're even pouring down boiling water now. I saw a guy with a bucket on the roof so it might be true. Wouldn't surprise me at all.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 2, 2011)

Alien said:


> It's on now.
> 
> Guys riding camels and horses charging onto the square.....



Just waiting for something similar to this...


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 2, 2011)

the pro-mubarak camp is throwing molotov cocktails into the crowd, i'm thinking the general will have to take over soon.


----------



## hyakku (Feb 2, 2011)

These people are going crazy over there, when this is all over I may watch it as a film. 

What I don't get is, if only tens of thousands (out of a country of millions) are protesting, what the fuck are the rest of them doing [now we have some idea, but still]?


----------



## iander (Feb 2, 2011)

Tony Blair- "Where you stand on him depends on whether you've worked with him from the outside or on the inside. I've worked with him on the Middle East peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians so this is somebody I'm constantly in contact with and working with and on that issue, I have to say, he's been immensely courageous and a force for good," he said.



At least Bush learned his lesson about shutting up.  Seems Blair continues with his foot in mouth disease.

Edit: It was pointed out to me that the quote I posted was being unfair to Blair so I changed it.  I still disagree with what he said but he shouldnt be taken out of context.


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Feb 2, 2011)

hyakku said:


> These people are going crazy over there, when this is all over I may watch it as a film.
> 
> What I don't get is, if only tens of thousands (out of a country of millions) are protesting, what the fuck are the rest of them doing [now we have some idea, but still]?



The rest are hold up in their homes waiting to see who wins in the street before emerging.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 2, 2011)

iander said:


> Tony Blair has described Hosni Mubarak, the beleaguered Egyptian leader, as "immensely courageous and a force for good".
> 
> 
> 
> At least Bush learned his lesson about shutting up.  Seems Blair continues with his foot in mouth disease.



That man is an absolute turd of a human being.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 2, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D36kIHrSa1I&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]


damn :/


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Feb 2, 2011)

Why does something tell me that the violence initiated by the pro Mubarak camp is going to give the Army a reason to 'intervene'. Well played, how to halt a revolution 101.


----------



## ChocoMello (Feb 2, 2011)

I think the army is in on it. Shortly after the General advised ppl to continue their normal lives, armed anti revolutionaries show up?
 And the army does pretty much nothing. Meanwhile, Government parrots tell the ppl to go home and wait for the reforms, or else violence may escalate.

After all, reporters said, before that the army used to search people for weapons and stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if the army is tolerating this on purpose or even made a deal with the regime.


----------



## cape (Feb 2, 2011)

hyakku said:


> These people are going crazy over there, when this is all over I may watch it as a film.
> 
> What I don't get is, if only tens of thousands (out of a country of millions) are protesting, what the fuck are the rest of them doing [now we have some idea, but still]?



Tens of thousands?

My friend, yesterday it was more than 2 million in Tahrir square alone, 8 million in the whole of Egypt.

That's almost 10% of the whole population!


----------



## hyakku (Feb 2, 2011)

cape said:


> Tens of thousands?
> 
> My friend, yesterday it was more than 2 million in Tahrir square alone, 8 million in the whole of Egypt.
> 
> That's almost 10% of the whole population!



What? Al jazeera claims there were up to a million there yesterday (even that seems pretty high), which, while higher than I anticipated, still has me questioning what the other people are doing. Even if they are anti or pro Mubarak, i can't imagine 7 million people watching one million people decide their future (more like 4-5 excluding kids probably).

It would be like all of America letting the tea party suddenly start revolting and making demands for the entire nation.


----------



## Kyousuke (Feb 2, 2011)

You know you've got issues if a tenth of your population is protesting publicly against you. That's difficult in itself to achieve. I don't know if there were really that many people though. 

Many choose not to get involved till the flames die down, to pick up the scraps when needed. That or they a) don't care or b) are too busy supporting themselves, their families/continuing life, whatever.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 2, 2011)

hyakku said:


> What? Al jazeera claims there were up to a million there yesterday (even that seems pretty high), which, while higher than I anticipated, still has me questioning what the other people are doing. Even if they are anti or pro Mubarak, i can't imagine 7 million people watching one million people decide their future (more like 4-5 excluding kids probably).
> 
> It would be like all of America letting the tea party suddenly start revolting and making demands for the entire nation.



you figure only a quarter of the population is males of fighting age that can deal with police beatings and running from shootings and what not.  it's not completely unreasonable.  in this situation i think it's best that the women and children and elderly stayed home.



Cookies said:


> You know you've got issues if a tenth of your population is protesting publicly against you. That's difficult in itself to achieve. I don't know if there were really that many people though.
> 
> Many choose not to get involved till the flames die down, to pick up the scraps when needed. That or they a) don't care or b) are too busy supporting themselves, their families/continuing life, whatever.



i agree, in any situation involving politics alot of people plain don't care.  hitler could be running the country or bill clinton, they are poor and don't give a shit.

Does hyakku think every member of the forum post in the cafe?


----------



## Arishem (Feb 2, 2011)

Live streams for anyone interested.


Random news stuff about Egypt.


Fire spreading in a residential area. 


Went down after a M1 Abrams on screen started moving dun dun dun.


Burning tree action.


----------



## dreams lie (Feb 2, 2011)

Well, it is turning violent. Saw this coming, reporters like Anderson Cooper got attacked.


----------



## Arishem (Feb 2, 2011)

An Egyptian poster on Something Awful claimed that police dogs have been released on the protesters just a couple minutes ago. I wonder how much further this is going to escalate.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 2, 2011)

Could a full blown rebellion be on its way in Egypt?


----------



## Darklyre (Feb 2, 2011)

Arishem said:


> An Egyptian poster on Something Awful claimed that police dogs have been released on the protesters just a couple minutes ago. I wonder how much further this is going to escalate.



That's a level 11 killstreak! Those protestors are getting stomped!


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 2, 2011)

Has anyone played Warhammer online?

Because these protest face offs look like a RvR battle.


----------



## Arishem (Feb 2, 2011)

Darklyre said:


> That's a level 11 killstreak! Those protestors are getting stomped!



Lets hope they don't get enough points to activate the tanks sitting in Tahrir Square.


----------



## Jade (Feb 2, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> Has anyone played Warhammer online?
> 
> Because these protest face offs look like a RvR battle.




Never looked at it that way. I haven't been following this that much, so I'm ignorant on some aspects and whats going on with the protests, ect.


----------



## Arishem (Feb 2, 2011)

Here's the fucking cavalry charge from earlier:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hAyHonl5ZM[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Darklyre (Feb 2, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> Has anyone played Warhammer online?
> 
> Because these protest face offs look like a RvR battle.



So lots of taunting, random shit being thrown from the back lines, random knockdowns, and jeering whenever someone is dumb enough to actually die?


----------



## Arishem (Feb 2, 2011)

CNN is reporting that the mubs are planning to attack the protesters at dawn.

Here's a map of each group's position:


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Feb 2, 2011)

You wanna CIVIL WAR well You GOT a CIVIL WAR....

pass the popcorn and butter tray this way

oh I love this part of the film the guy ducks to avoid getting hit with a rock only
to be burned by scolding hot water by the person on a roof.


----------



## iander (Feb 2, 2011)

Apparently Anderson Cooper's group got roughed up by some pro-Mubarak "protesters".


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 2, 2011)

Somewhat off-topic, but... was looking at the pictures from Egypt and spotted this Egyptian girl.



Viva la revolucion!  Or counter-revolution, whichever one she's for.


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 2, 2011)

Given the un-vandalized picture of Mubarak in his younger days I'd say she's counter.


----------



## Arishem (Feb 3, 2011)

This is a pretty good throw. 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8_aXQb7qM[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 3, 2011)

Amderson cooper got punched and kicked!! with video


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Feb 3, 2011)

> They began walking away from the group who had begun the assault on them, but as they walked out of the square, various other groups rushed towards them, shouting, punching, and kicking the crew.
> 
> Cooper can be heard in video saying *"I've been hit now, like, ten times," and "the Egyptian soldiers are doing nothing."*





> In the hours since the attack on Cooper's team, it has become apparent that journalists were a target, Wednesday. According to MSNBC's Richard Engle and Al Jezeera, other journalists were attacked similarly during the day.
> 
> *Since then, Tahrir Square has become the site of bloody clashes, largely instigated by pro-Mubarak protesters, some of them police in disguise.*






Looks like Mubarak decided to let loose the very same thugs that were stirring up malcontent among the people during the months leading up to the protests.


----------



## Utopia Realm (Feb 3, 2011)

Seems like the climax may hit anyday hour right now as the protests keep intensifying. Gonna have to watch the developments a bit more now.


----------



## iander (Feb 3, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> Looks like Mubarak decided to let loose the very same thugs that were stirring up malcontent among the people during the months leading up to the protests.



This is the "stable" and "orderly" regime that people have been talking about.


----------



## Darklyre (Feb 3, 2011)

iander said:


> This is the "stable" and "orderly" regime that people have been talking about.



Stability and order are a prerequisite for pleasantry, not the other way around. Just because a nation is stable and orderly does not mean it is pleasant to live in. How you managed to conflate stability and order with pleasantry is beyond my understanding.


----------



## escamoh (Feb 3, 2011)

how many of these people are pro-mubarak vs anti-mubarak?


----------



## Darklyre (Feb 3, 2011)

escamoh said:


> how many of these people are pro-mubarak vs anti-mubarak?



It's more a question of how many people are anti-Mubarak versus "not anti-Mubarak enough to resist getting paid to be pro-Mubarak."


----------



## Ludwig The Holy Blade (Feb 3, 2011)

Is there any proof that the pro-Mubarak guys are getting paid? It seems like an incredibly stupid move for him at this point. He's basically putting a target on his head. Any support he might have had from outside of Egypt is going to disappear.


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Feb 3, 2011)

iander said:


> This is the "stable" and "orderly" regime that people have been talking about.



People tend to view things with a narrow perspective. Egypt was dandy when its regime guaranteed a passive foreign policy in the region. So it was said to be stable. But this only applied in terms of national security to the parties of whom were interested in its policy. 

No one outside the country ever cared about the old man beaten to death by a  heavy handed police force near his used shoe stand, which he used to make less than 2 dollars every day to support his family. It was not an isolated incident. Authoritarian abuse has been going on in Egypt since before Mubarak took over power. His accomplishment was reform to aggrandize the police and military. But that was okay for the rest of the world, because Egypt became an example of the peace process possible between an Arab nation and Israel.

The country has been in a continuous state of emergency since 1967. Martial law was imposed in 1981 and after several legislative extensions, has never been lifted to this very day!


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 3, 2011)

watched giuliani talking about muslim brotherhood like it's al qaeda, what an ass.

and karl rove, another moron, thinking up strategies on how to take advantage of the situation.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 3, 2011)

Darklyre said:


> So lots of taunting, random shit being thrown from the back lines, random knockdowns, and jeering whenever someone is dumb enough to actually die?



That, and the way the crowds move against each other. How one will push and the other will fall back for a point, then rally and push the other side. 
Then they will hold the lines and range will ping at each other, until melee pushes again.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 3, 2011)

Doggie said:


> Is there any proof that the pro-Mubarak guys are getting paid? It seems like an incredibly stupid move for him at this point. He's basically putting a target on his head. Any support he might have had from outside of Egypt is going to disappear.



I think of it this way, for the first few days of the protests there were huge numbers of police. They had riot gear and they were battling against the crowds. 

Suddenly there are no police on the streets and a huge number of plain cloths Mubarak supports. 

It seems to me that the government realize if the police take off their uniforms they can get away with pretty much anything.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 3, 2011)

Doggie said:


> Is there any proof that the pro-Mubarak guys are getting paid?



A BBC news reporter who was in the square at the time of the attacks claimed that some pro-Mubarak attackers were wearing police tags and speculated that 
they dressed in plain clothes to cover their actions


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Feb 3, 2011)

There's also a claim that some were workers forced by their employers to support Mubarak.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 3, 2011)

> 1617: New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof tweets: "Govt is trying to round up journalists. I worry about what it is they're planning that they don't want us to see."



I don't like the sounds of that.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 3, 2011)

RUH ROH, CHINA EGYPT BECOMING I?


----------



## Alien (Feb 3, 2011)




----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 3, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> I don't like the sounds of that.



well, if you saw anderson cooper get punched last night and holed up in his dark hotel, you can get a sense that they don't want stories of dead busted up journalists getting out.


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Feb 3, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> I don't like the sounds of that.



The situation is degenerating. Mubarak needs to leave now. If the international community doesn't start supporting the Egyptian people, we can have a real blood bath on our hands.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 3, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> The situation is degenerating. Mubarak needs to leave now. If the international community doesn't start supporting the Egyptian people, we can have a real blood bath on our hands.



To be fair there could also be a real bloodbath if he leaves and everyone scraps for power.

Possibly it's more likely though I haven't read any serious work on such things.


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 3, 2011)

It was bound to happen eventually, this is Egypt after all:


----------



## iander (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> It was bound to happen eventually, this is Egypt after all:



And this is the regime that Israel wants to keep around .


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 3, 2011)

iander said:


> And this is the regime that Israel wants to keep around .



Meh, they've been doing that since the 1950's and it's just a cheap PR ploy that the masses eat up. Wait until the Muslim Brotherhood takes hold, watch some Gypo TV and Mossad mind-controlled sharks eating German tourists will start to seem rational.

This is a damned if we do, damned if we don't kind of situation.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> It was bound to happen eventually, this is Egypt after all:



it's important to keep the focus on isreal whenever possible.

anywho..



Megaharrison said:


> Meh, they've been doing that since the 1950's and it's just a cheap PR ploy that the masses eat up. Wait until the Muslim Brotherhood takes hold, watch some Gypo TV and Mossad mind-controlled sharks eating German tourists will start to seem rational.
> 
> This is a damned if we do, damned if we don't kind of situation.



giuliani , is that you?  lol

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5hhVAj0ak[/YOUTUBE]

fuckin old kook


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 3, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlERBo6Bnrs[/YOUTUBE]

man was killed btw


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> It was bound to happen eventually, this is Egypt after all:


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 3, 2011)

Eh, it would be accurate to say Mubarak has shown restraint. For example, when Syrians rose up at Al-Hama in 1982, Assad killed 20,000 of the demonstrators. When there were movements against Saddam he gassed hundreds of thousands. Mubaraks reaction could be much harsher then it is, but it would cause complications for his regime considering Egypt is so dependent on the West. Mubaraks actions are largely on par with Irans last summer when they put down their own democratic movement, using loyal state security forces to use violence.

And before you try to accuse me of "HERP DE DERP YOU JUST DEFENDED MUBARAK" keep in mind I just compared him to _Iran_. I'm just calling it as it is.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> It was bound to happen eventually, this is Egypt after all:



Also heard somewhere that Israel, Qatar, Al Jazeera and Wikileaks together conspired to create this chaos.

.....strange bedfellows i must say.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Eh, it would be accurate to say Mubarak has shown restraint. For example, when Syrians rose up at Al-Hama in 1982, Assad killed 20,000 of the demonstrators. When there were movements against Saddam he gassed hundreds of thousands. Mubaraks reaction could be much harsher then it is, but it would cause complications for his regime considering Egypt is so dependent on the West. Mubaraks actions are largely on par with Irans last summer when they put down their own democratic movement, using loyal state security forces to use violence.
> 
> And before you try to accuse me of "HERP DE DERP YOU JUST DEFENDED MUBARAK" keep in mind I just compared him to _Iran_. I'm just calling it as it is.



well he was told to show restraint since at first the police were just gonna smash the protestors.  who knows where he would have gone had obama not told him to ease up.


----------



## Arishem (Feb 3, 2011)

> @KennethCole
> Millions are in uproar in #Cairo. Rumor is they heard our new spring collection is now available online at [] -KC


Good PR move, Kenneth.


----------



## Arishem (Feb 3, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cWOK0Lfh7w[/YOUTUBE]
This is some fucked up shit.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 3, 2011)




----------



## hcheng02 (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Eh, it would be accurate to say Mubarak has shown restraint. For example, when Syrians rose up at Al-Hama in 1982, Assad killed 20,000 of the demonstrators. When there were movements against Saddam he gassed hundreds of thousands. Mubaraks reaction could be much harsher then it is, but it would cause complications for his regime considering Egypt is so dependent on the West. Mubaraks actions are largely on par with Irans last summer when they put down their own democratic movement, using loyal state security forces to use violence.
> 
> And before you try to accuse me of "HERP DE DERP YOU JUST DEFENDED MUBARAK" keep in mind I just compared him to _Iran_. I'm just calling it as it is.



It might be Mubarak doesn't have the sort of control over the military that those other countries had which limits his ability to use force. 

Anyway, I'm seeing a lot of people claim that a war is not a possibility because the Muslim Brotherhood does not have enough numbers or because it does not make economic sense. First of all, within both war and a democracy a well-organized minority is more than capable of controlling or overthrowing the government. The US revolution succeeded with only one-third of the population supporting it - the rest were either loyalists or indifferent. In the US democracy we see how powerful the religious right is. Also, a country can act aggressively against its economic self-interest in response to nationalist/popular pressure. It didn't make a lot of sense for China to pick a fight with Japan - to the point of stopping rare earth exports - over the Senkaku/DiaoYu Islands. Especially when that Japanese government was the most pro-Chinese in years. But China did because of widespread populist pressure. 

This is not to say that the new Egyptian government is guaranteed to start a war with Israel or break relations with the West. However, its a lot more likely to happen than a lot of posters here are suggesting.


----------



## soulnova (Feb 3, 2011)

I really pity the people dying in those mobs. Whatever their political ideas were... to die like that is something reserved only for mass murderers.

I was once dragged down by a mob of kids and it was one of the most frightening moments in my whole life. Thank god I was at earshot of my mother and she saved me. That taught me to stay the fuck away from any kind of groups of conflict, may that be rival kids, working unions or activists.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 3, 2011)

Mubarak shows 'restraint' in the same way the plainclothes officers don't kill the reporters instead of just roughing them up and destroying their cameras 

Its all the same shit, he dont wanna go down, and this is a pathetic attempt to stop people from realizing what he does to dissent


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 3, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> It might be Mubarak doesn't have the sort of control over the military that those other countries had which limits his ability to use force.



Yes that was his undoing. Assad was always associated with his military much more then Mubarak was, who mostly left it alone in order to let the Generals make it more effective (it was a recommendation by the U.S. when military aid began). Even Sadat/Nasser had a far bigger connection with the Army then Mubarak. 

Also he lacked the efficient internal security apparatus' that you see in Iran in particular, who devotes an entire parallel military of 125,000 personnel to oppression. If Mubarak had learned to act more like a real totalitarian this could have been avoided for him.



> Anyway, I'm seeing a lot of people claim that a war is not a possibility because the Muslim Brotherhood does not have enough numbers or because it does not make economic sense. First of all, within both war and a democracy a well-organized minority is more than capable of controlling or overthrowing the government. The US revolution succeeded with only one-third of the population supporting it - the rest were either loyalists or indifferent. In the US democracy we see how powerful the religious right is. Also, a country can act aggressively against its economic self-interest in response to nationalist/popular pressure. It didn't make a lot of sense for China to pick a fight with Japan - to the point of stopping rare earth exports - over the Senkaku/DiaoYu Islands. Especially when that Japanese government was the most pro-Chinese in years. But China did because of widespread populist pressure.
> 
> This is not to say that the new Egyptian government is guaranteed to start a war with Israel or break relations with the West. However, its a lot more likely to happen than a lot of posters here are suggesting.



Pretty much, here's an interview with one of the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood where he makes it clear they will never make peace with Israel, even if they create a Palestinian State and agree to pre-1967 lines:



The biggest problem with post-Mubarak Egypt won't be the chances for a direct war between the two, that's somewhat unlikely. However Hamas will be able to enjoy a far greater level of Iranian/Syrian/possibly Gypo aid and this will lead to a new war in which not only Israeli civilians will suffer, but the Palestinians on a far greater level as well. Unless you think the rocket attacks against Israeli civilians really help the Palestinians in any way I can't see why you'd want such a thing.

The solution of course to this is to re-occupy the Philadelphi Corridor, which I think should be done eventually depending on how this Egypt situation goes.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> The solution of course to this is to re-occupy the Philadelphi Corridor, which I think should be done eventually depending on how this Egypt situation goes.



urg, there goes the argument of Israel being out of the gaza strip....
Or that Israel isn't responsible for the blockade. 

maybe this will be a kick in the ass to your right wing to get more done with a deal with palestinian authority. 

also,
does it still look like your going to be deployed?


----------



## Arishem (Feb 3, 2011)

This is the most stylish revolution the world has ever seen.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 3, 2011)

Arishem said:


> This is the most stylish revolution the world has ever seen.



it's all they can do not get their heads cracked


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 3, 2011)

It's like teinamen square all over again but this time the protesters have a better chance


----------



## Darklyre (Feb 3, 2011)




----------



## The Space Cowboy (Feb 3, 2011)

Though with regards to the car...

Presume you are a rational, sane driver who wishes no ill will to the demonstrators.
You are surrounded by an angry mob.  

Your choices are 1)  Be at the mercy of an angry mob  2)  Escape

Going Grand-Theft Auto on the Demonstrators would be a rational, sane decision.


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Feb 3, 2011)

Go Go Go Speed Racer


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 3, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> urg, there goes the argument of Israel being out of the gaza strip....
> Or that Israel isn't responsible for the blockade.
> 
> maybe this will be a kick in the ass to your right wing to get more done with a deal with palestinian authority.



I understand the bad political implications it will have, but Hamas turning into another Hezbollah outweighs that consequence. It is a very unfortunate necessity, I would never want to step foot in Gaza again under any other circumstance.



> also,
> does it still look like your going to be deployed?



No, not until this situation plays itself out. Calling up Southern Commands ~200,000 reserves is quite expensive and only done for extreme situations, we're going to wait to see if it's necessary. 

Considering Mubarak doesn't plan to step down until September, I may be in for a long wait. However Southern Command has already begun re-training us to fight the Egyptian Army again so who knows.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 3, 2011)

Do you actually think you'll be fighting against the Egyptian army if push comes to shove


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> I understand the bad political implications it will have, but Hamas turning into another Hezbollah outweighs that consequence. It is a very unfortunate necessity, I would never want to step foot in Gaza again under any other circumstance.


urg, I hate to amit that it makes sence. 
Espically considering the hezbollah take over of  Lebanon in recent months. 

I wish I was smart enough to think of a better way.... 



Megaharrison said:


> No, not until this situation plays itself out. Calling up Southern Commands ~200,000 reserves is quite expensive and only done for extreme situations, we're going to wait to see if it's necessary.
> 
> Considering Mubarak doesn't plan to step down until September, I may be in for a long wait. However Southern Command has already begun re-training us to fight the Egyptian Army again so who knows.


Well, as long as there is no agression by Israel you can count on American support. If that is any comfort....(hope it is)

urg, it is going to be a long year.


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Feb 3, 2011)

Hopefully there will just be some house cleaning, and no wars.


----------



## Mider T (Feb 3, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> I understand the bad political implications it will have, but Hamas turning into another Hezbollah outweighs that consequence. It is a very unfortunate necessity, I would never want to step foot in Gaza again under any other circumstance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought you were going active duty?


----------



## Psychic (Feb 3, 2011)

So this all started because a college grad could not find work, and therefore started selling vegetables on the street, after the police came and beat him and took away his cart, he doused himself on fire.
HELLO PEOPLE?!! High unemployment and student loans!!! Does that not sound like a typical scenario here in the US? I heard we have even higher unemployment rate then Egypt, so why aren't we out there protesting? I'll tell you why, because we are too addicted to the internet to wanna go anywhere and protest! You can't protest and type and throw rocks at the same time, can you??


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 3, 2011)

Kasumi said:


> So this all started because a college grad could not find work, and therefore started selling vegetables on the street, after the police came and beat him and took away his cart, he doused himself on fire.
> *HELLO PEOPLE?!! High unemployment and student loans!!! Does that not sound like a typical scenario here in the US?* I heard we have even higher unemployment rate then Egypt, so why aren't we out there protesting? I'll tell you why, because we are too addicted to the internet to wanna go anywhere and protest! You can't protest and type and throw rocks at the same time, can you??



We are a simple sheeple, Kasumi. Our masters take care of the thinking while we charge our credit cards and take antidepressants.


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Feb 3, 2011)

Kasumi said:


> HELLO PEOPLE?!! High unemployment and student loans!!! Does that not sound like a typical scenario here in the US? I heard we have even higher unemployment rate then Egypt, so why aren't we out there protesting? I'll tell you why, because we are too addicted to the internet to wanna go anywhere and protest! You can't protest and type and throw rocks at the same time, can you??



_*
That's just stupid.  *_

Our elected officials by and large don't hold onto the presidency for 30 years.

Also, you're confusing Revolution in the French model with protest.  Americans don't do revolution--never have, never will.

We do organized revolts just fine though.
Nevertheless, this thread is really about Egypt.  Stay on topic.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 3, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> urg, I hate to amit that it makes sence.
> Espically considering the hezbollah take over of  Lebanon in recent months.
> 
> I wish I was smart enough to think of a better way....
> ...



don't count on my support, i'm voting for paul rand mf, cut money to isreal.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 3, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> don't count on my support, i'm voting for paul rand mf, cut money to isreal.


If egypt invaids Israel it would have your support?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 3, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> don't count on my support, i'm voting for paul rand mf, cut money to isreal.


...so you're voting for the most crazy Republicans ever?

Are you and Nagatopwnsall friends?


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 4, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> If egypt invaids Israel it would have your support?



where did i say that? professional mind readers in here, except not that good   keep guessing



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...so you're voting for the most crazy Republicans ever?
> 
> Are you and Nagatopwnsall friends?



yeah i'll vote for him if it will change the dialogue, honestly i'm sure i said his name wrong.


----------



## Mider T (Feb 4, 2011)

It's Rand Paul not Paul Rand, you're going to vote for him but don't even know his name?  Do you know what he campaigned on?


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 4, 2011)

Mider T said:


> It's Rand Paul not Paul Rand, you're going to vote for him but don't even know his name?  Do you know what he campaigned on?



lots of americans can't even say obama's name right if they even know his name, yet most americans voted for him.   Alot of americans think he's kenyan muslim communist.

having said that, tell me what place facts have in the dialogue?  but i do know enough about rand paul to say, "i'm listening..."


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 4, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> where did i say that? professional mind readers in here, except not that good   keep guessing



Then whey did you respond to my post that we wouldn't.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 4, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> Then whey did you respond to my post that we wouldn't.



you made a grand prediction, you asked me to answer your false dichotomy and assumed my response. that's why i responded.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 4, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> you made a grand prediction, you asked me to answer your false dichotomy and assumed my response. that's why i responded.


I didn't ask you do shit, I said that as long as Israel doesn't take the offensive they would have American support in a conflict with egypt. 

You responded that you wouldn't support them, 

go troll somewhere else.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 4, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> I didn't ask you do shit, I said that as long as Israel doesn't take the offensive they would have American support in a conflict with egypt.
> 
> You responded that you wouldn't support them,
> 
> go troll somewhere else.



cmon man, u asked me right here 



sadated_peon said:


> If egypt invaids Israel it would have your support?



quit trolling.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 4, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> cmon man, u asked me right here
> 
> quit trolling.


That's not the post you responded to about not support Israel.

Here,

I didn't ask you anything, you responded to me.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 4, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> That's not the post you responded to about not support Israel.
> 
> Here,
> 
> I didn't ask you anything, you responded to me.



you gotta be kidding me, negged for trolling.


----------



## sadated_peon (Feb 4, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> you gotta be kidding me, negged for trolling.


yea, have fun with that.


----------



## T.D.A (Feb 4, 2011)

Well done Egypt. Now to move forward.


----------



## iander (Feb 4, 2011)

Interesting tidbit from the Muslim Brotherhood's website:

MB responds to Iran’s Islamic Leader Mr Khamenai: The MB regards the revolution as the Egyptian People’s Revolution not an Islamic Revolution asserting that the Egyptian People’s Revolution includes Muslims, Christians, from all sects and political


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 4, 2011)




----------



## Vom Osten (Feb 4, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


>



There's the Middle East we've come to know and love.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 4, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


>



they might be on to something


----------



## pikachuwei (Feb 4, 2011)

good thing i went on a tour of egypt before all this shit happened


----------



## Zabuzalives (Feb 6, 2011)

K, thats that for the revolution, military dictatorship will remain. Some swapping of figureheads, mubarak Eventually stepping back, a little more pressure from paid pro mubarak supporters. Its as good as over


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Feb 6, 2011)

Thats Mubarak for you.

Minute 2:30 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni-9oJs-mLs&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 6, 2011)

hyakku said:


> LMAO, i've been over this thread for four pages, and you have consistently been talking to yourself, getting no responses from people.
> 
> Please, please I legitimately am imploring you, tell me how you are this stupid. Just give me some hint, PLEASE. I am literally begging you, I want to be able to spot it in my child in case I need to throw him from a cliff at birth. Please man, I haven't asked you for much in this life, and I know we have never seen eye to eye, but if you can help me in this endeavor I promise I'll just put you on my ignore list and stop responding to you forever. Deal?



you are patently wrong and overtly flaming me, it's like the umpteenth time you do that.

none of my post require responses as a matter of fact.  i could care less if anyone reads them or replies.  in that sense i'm here to talk to myself.  

negged and reported.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 7, 2011)

mods support open flaming , i get warnings for making jokes, what a world



I can mate said:


> Give it up dude this is a guy who thinks that the Falkland Islands belong to Argentina and believes that the locals have no right to determine whether they remain british or not
> 
> On topic glad to see Mubarak still in power. At the very least the risk of getting a crackpot government in Egypt is delayed for the time being.



lol, off topic.  fuckin dupe, you can't possibly know about those arguments with 27 post.  if the mods did anything here they'd have noticed that.


----------



## Zabuzalives (Feb 7, 2011)

For a "stick it to THE MAN" type your awfully quck to run and cry for the mods. Ever since your namechange you havent been the same...

Any news on the protests, Still out in force or dwindling down?


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 7, 2011)

Zabuzalives said:


> For a "stick it to THE MAN" type your awfully quck to run and cry for the mods. Ever since your namechange you havent been the same...
> 
> Any news on the protests, Still out in force or dwindling down?



part of sticking it to the man is being sure they stick it to themselves.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 8, 2011)

Free egypt!


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 8, 2011)

Vom Osten said:


> There's the Middle East we've come to know and love.


And it begins...

At least this is territory we all know and love.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 8, 2011)

suleiman's threatening to re-sick the police on the protestors, lol, is that the change that mubarak gave them? dude has to go.

truth be told, i imagine that the longer the regime forces itself on the masses, the more they will radicalize the masses. then the masses will really turn to whomever they have to get free, even someone worse.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 8, 2011)

These protest are over 2 weeks long do you think the protesters will either fizzle out or get even more pissed?




Megaharrison said:


>


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2sKH8yjVsM[/YOUTUBE]

Haters gonna hate MH haters gonna hate


----------



## Pilaf (Feb 8, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


>



There are anti-Semitic idiots in Arab countries?

Well color me surprised!


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 8, 2011)

^ i thought they were insulting mubarak


----------



## Darklyre (Feb 9, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> ^ i thought they were insulting mubarak



If you insult someone by calling them a Jew, then it's pretty damned obvious that _you hate the Jews_.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 9, 2011)

Darklyre said:


> If you insult someone by calling them a Jew, then it's pretty damned obvious that _you hate the Jews_.


Well...no one wants to be wrongly identified


----------



## xenopyre (Feb 9, 2011)

Darklyre said:


> If you insult someone by calling them a Jew, then it's pretty damned obvious that _you hate the Jews_.


They are not insulting him by calling him a Jew but by calling him an american and israeli puppet


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 9, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> They are not insulting him by calling him a Jew but by calling him an american and israeli puppet


​


----------



## soulnova (Feb 9, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> They are not insulting him by calling him a Jew but by calling him an american and israeli puppet



Bah, that happens even in Mexico. Except the "israeli" part. I haven't seen any protest against them around here. xP


----------



## iander (Feb 9, 2011)

Theres only so many times they could take a police car running over protesters.  This time, they stopped it and tipped it over.  Wonder what happened to the driver.


----------



## hellonoam (Feb 9, 2011)

Are the protests supposed to be news?


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 9, 2011)

hellonoam said:


> Are the protests supposed to be news?



they're not news, it's just every news source has been covering them for last 15 days.  liberal media..


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 9, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> they're not news, it's just every news source has been covering them for last 15 days.  liberal media..



Yeah fuck these protests which may or may not change the geopolitcal stability of a region

we should worry more about more important things like why Lindsay lohan stole a $2,500 necklace


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 9, 2011)

makeoutparadise said:


> Yeah fuck these protests which may or may not change the geopolitcal stability of a region
> 
> we should worry more about more important things like why Lindsay lohan stole a $2,500 necklace



i wonder if she'll  go to jail, can't wait to see that on my tmz


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 9, 2011)

Shes been in jail and rehab so many times now she should just try to restart her career by teaming up with lilwayne and make a hip hop album fo' sho'


----------



## N120 (Feb 9, 2011)

Good news: Turnouts getting bigger in TS and other places with unions also joining in with strike action.

Bad news: Mubaraks regime is up to no good as expected, using the security services to pick-up protestors as they leave these demonstrations, videos of police vans running over people aswell as reports of his men randomly assassinating unarmed civilians.

 After all these acts of intimidation by the regime i cant see the public ever accepting anyone associated with the regime to take part in any future government or given the duty to overlook the transition period being pushed forward by the US (ie suleiman).


----------



## Selva (Feb 10, 2011)

Looks like Mubarak is going to step down tonight. There was a meeting today with the Armed Forces and he didn't attend it.


----------



## Alien (Feb 10, 2011)

Mubarak wanted to hand over power to the vice president apparently but the army wouldn't have it .


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Feb 10, 2011)

Darklyre said:


> If you insult someone by calling them a Jew, then it's pretty damned obvious that _you hate the Jews_.



I know this is off topic, but is it just me or does the word "Jew" always sound derogatory?


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 10, 2011)

Hope this is true. Egypt needs to move on, one man shouldn't keep the entire country at a halt.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 10, 2011)

0Fear said:


> I know this is off topic, but is it just me or does the word "Jew" always sound derogatory?



jew don't know if i got a gun, jew don't know if i got a knife


----------



## hgfdsahjkl (Feb 10, 2011)

Tonight we win in sh2 allah


----------



## heavy_rasengan (Feb 10, 2011)

So....whats this I hear about Mubarak being an Israeli agent....


----------



## masamune1 (Feb 10, 2011)

Looks like he might be leaving.....


----------



## Garfield (Feb 10, 2011)

Anyone else watching the live broadcast? (I'm watching on youtube)

3 min to presidents speech


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm watching it on Al Jazeera.


----------



## Garfield (Feb 10, 2011)

yt is broadcasting Aljazeera live :3


----------



## Alien (Feb 10, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> I'm watching it on Al Jazeera.


?              .


----------



## Selva (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm watching it on my local tv


----------



## Deleted member 161031 (Feb 10, 2011)

can't watch from here .... is he leaving?


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

His broadcast hasn't happened yet.


----------



## Garfield (Feb 10, 2011)

this is getting too late for me

*sleeping on keyboard*


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2011)

I would watch this shit...but all I would be thinking is how much warmer it must be in Egypt...


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

It has begun.


----------



## Alien (Feb 10, 2011)

Doesn't sound like he's leaving.


----------



## Garfield (Feb 10, 2011)

"I will not *relent* to penalize"

"I will not bow to external pressure"

asshole


----------



## Alien (Feb 10, 2011)

Useless sack of shit.


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

It really doesn't.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 10, 2011)

guess it's the military's move now


----------



## Garfield (Feb 10, 2011)

he amended articles but hints he will amend later

definitely not stepping down is he?


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

Looks like the people are not pleased if I'm reading the mood right.


----------



## Garfield (Feb 10, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Looks like the people are not pleased if I'm reading the mood right.


I thought throwing shoes was the new roses 


oh well

I really wish I could join the protestors over there


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 10, 2011)

LOL Mubarak trolling blunt headed fool


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 10, 2011)

Fuck, this guy is stubborn


----------



## Marknbrut (Feb 10, 2011)

LOL, that dude really has gone senile with old age. Can't even understand a (VERY) loud, 'go away'. 

On a more speculative term, seeing as most politicians go into office for 'free money' and keeping their 'fat cat' sponsors fat, maybe its taking Mubrak and Co longer than usual to empty out all the national assests. 

I am sure that once he sucks the country dry he will go.


----------



## Jade (Feb 10, 2011)

He must really think that the protests will eventually come to an end if he continues.


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

His speech just fueled the fire.

Edit:  Protesters going to a military base in Alexandria.  It'll be interesting to see how the military reacts.


----------



## Toby (Feb 10, 2011)

Fucking moron is going down. I don't care if the army or the people kick him out. I hope their revolution succeeds.


----------



## Mael (Feb 10, 2011)

Wow he really doesn't take the hint, does he?

Instead he's taking the piss.


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

People are hesitant to give up power.


----------



## heavy_rasengan (Feb 10, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> People are hesitant to give up power.



lol supposedly his family is worth over 70 billion dollars....This guy should take his money and live out the rest of his life on a weed farm.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 10, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Fuck, this guy is stubborn



it's like he thinks he's playing age of empires or Total war: Egypt 
If he can collect enough wood and meat the protests will go away


----------



## Reckoner (Feb 10, 2011)

Mubarak's speech was funny, just as I expected it to be. He seriously must be living in an alternate universe. I don't even know where to begin. He was praising himself--backdoor bragging. It was so blatant, I'd get embarrassed myself. Also, what foreign pressure he spoke of? The millions on the streets today and have been for 3 weeks are YOUR people you sick bastard. They were out before ANY other governments urged for change. So delusional. He had the audacity to compare himself to the youths on the streets? The speech most likely has been pre-recorded. Mubarak has completely lost it. He has misjudged the whole thing. This situation right now has turned a point of no return. It's almost like he's trying to convince the millions of people in their houses to join the revolution tomorrow. That's the only logical explanation I can think of right now.

Now, Omar Suleiman's speech is like the closure to the trolling that preceded. Sillymam is a fitting nickname he's earned.


----------



## Codi Kenhai (Feb 10, 2011)

If the people get pissed off enough, they are gonna go into the presidential mansion and drag his ass out.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 10, 2011)

Codi Kenhai said:


> If the people get pissed off enough, they are gonna go into the presidential mansion and drag his ass out.



they should play some tether ball with mubarak... what was that saying the french used in their revolution?


----------



## Reckoner (Feb 10, 2011)

I only hope it continues to be peaceful like it has been since the uprising began, protesters-wise. I expect more thugs to be let loose but it's old news now. An interesting scenario a number of people have discussed is that Mubarak's speech was purposely trying to push the protesters to their limits and break down. They want this uprising to turn violent so the actions and the brutality (that was present days ago) against them will then be satisfied. In other words, "Look what happened because of these protests. We told you to go back to your homes."


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 10, 2011)

Reckoner said:


> I only hope it continues to be peaceful like it has been since the uprising began, protesters-wise. I expect more thugs to be let loose but it's old news now. An interesting scenario a number of people have discussed is that Mubarak's speech was purposely trying to push the protesters to their limits and break down. They want this uprising to turn violent so the actions and the brutality (that was present days ago) against them will then be satisfied. In other words, "Look what happened because of these protests. We told you to go back to your homes."



i think there needs to be blood, sadly.  otherwise it's like a camping holiday.


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

There will definitely be blood.  The people are angry and won't be easily persuaded to stop the protesting.


----------



## Reckoner (Feb 10, 2011)

Over 300 are already dead. That's only an estimate. Blood has been spilled since it started.


----------



## Alien (Feb 10, 2011)

This could spiral out of control fast.


----------



## len77 (Feb 10, 2011)

I kind of expected a shitty speech but this just blew my mind. That might be one of the stupidest, most ridiculous things I have ever heard. He's talking about foreign pressure while ignoring the people on the streets. The speech didn't have any connection to the current situation. What foreign pressure? What servitude to his country? What reason for him to be proud of the Egyptian people? That they want him gone? But this just shows that there is no legitimate reason as of why he should stay. He ignored everything around him because there are no reasonable arguments he could use. 

The patronising and belittling tone of both speeches is the worst of all. They speak like a father would speak to his immature, recalcitrant teenage child who tries to rebel. Did Sillyman seriously tell the protesters to go home or back to work? It's like a father who sends his misbehaving kids to their room. 

In spite of that huge provocation and that incredible backslash, the Egyptians are still rather peaceful and hopeful. I'm glad about how they reacted. The speech... well, I didn't expect much, and yet I was still disappointed.


----------



## len77 (Feb 10, 2011)

Reckoner said:


> Over 300 are already dead. That's only an estimate. Blood has been spilled since it started.



Yeah, but this is still a rather small number considering the situation. I would have expected much more by now. I just hope the protests remain ?peaceful?.


----------



## Reckoner (Feb 10, 2011)

Actually, the violence and brutality used should not have been used from the beginning. They were peaceful them protesters. They were out demanding rights. They had no weapons--defenseless. Yet, the police attacked them and they've done so in gruesome ways, I felt disgusted. A short example is the video posted on YT where an Egyptian man was shot dead by the police even though he showed them he was defenseless and was backing away slowly. Now, what was their reason for this?

So, I don't think it's a small number. It's a lot in fact.

As for Mubarak's speech, it was insulting their intelligence and was belittling them.


----------



## dream (Feb 10, 2011)

Apparently hundreds are marching towards the Presidential Palace.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 10, 2011)

Reckoner said:


> Actually, the violence and brutality used should not have been used from the beginning. They were peaceful them protesters. They were out demanding rights. They had no weapons--defenseless. Yet, the police attacked them and they've done so in gruesome ways, I felt disgusted. A short example is the video posted on YT where an Egyptian man was shot dead by the police even though he showed them he was defenseless and was backing away slowly. Now, what was their reason for this?
> 
> So, I don't think it's a small number. It's a lot in fact.
> 
> As for Mubarak's speech, it was insulting their intelligence and was belittling them.



the protestors should get their blood back 

in theory anyway, i can only vicariously imagine having to face the decisions those guys are facing right now.


----------



## Xerces (Feb 10, 2011)

Violence is the answer. Those thousands of people need to storm the government buildings where Mubarak is hiding and dispose of him. Blood must be spilt.


----------



## len77 (Feb 10, 2011)

Reckoner said:


> Actually, the violence and brutality used should not have been used from the beginning. They were peaceful them protesters. They were out demanding rights. They had no weapons--defenseless. Yet, the police attacked them and they've done so in gruesome ways, I felt disgusted. A short example is the video posted on YT where an Egyptian man was shot dead by the police even though he showed them he was defenseless and was backing away slowly. Now, what was their reason for this?
> 
> So, I don't think it's a small number. It's a lot in fact.
> 
> As for Mubarak's speech, it was insulting their intelligence and was belittling them.



Of course, 300 is an incredibly huge number in itself. But consider that this is a third-world country where human rights are ignored or downright violated on a daily basis. I would have expected the protestants to be much more violent and aggressive and the military to brutally put down the demonstration. They could have taken weapons and actively killed people, yet they endanger themselves and just protest for peace and democracy. That is what I'm so glad about. Though, of course the actions of the police and some protestants sadden me. But, like I said already, I expected the situation to be much worse. 

I agree that the belittling and patronising tone of both speeches was just terrible and downright provoking.


----------



## len77 (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm very much against blood spilling. Not only because of human rights but also because the Egyptians should set an example of the democratic, free state they long to live in. Violence and brutality just increase the likelihood of a totalitarian regime that could settle after Mubarak is gone. They should show the world that they respect human rights and want peace. They can't try to start a democracy while simultaneously breaking it's basic principles.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 10, 2011)

len77 said:


> I'm very much against blood spilling. Not only because of human rights but also because the Egyptians should set an example of the democratic, free state they long to live in. Violence and brutality just increase the likelihood of a totalitarian regime that could settle after Mubarak is gone. They should show the world that they respect human rights and want peace. They can't try to start a democracy while simultaneously breaking it's basic principles.



you make a good point , some people, like Gandhi, say there is no place for violence in a political uprising.


----------



## Reckoner (Feb 10, 2011)

Egypt is a third world country because of the government and how it was ruled into such a slump it was almost beyond repair. It's not the people. 
Since day one, the protesters had called for the army to come down. They trust the army and even though many have found the army's position on the current events to be a bit lacking but the protesters have not lost trust in them. There was cheering and applause everywhere when army men were first spotted. Especially after what the police forces have been doing the days before.


----------



## len77 (Feb 10, 2011)

Reckoner said:


> Egypt is a third world country because of the government and how it was ruled into such a slump it was almost beyond repair. It's not the people.
> Since day one, the protesters had called for the army to come down. They trust the army and even though many have found the army's position on the current events to be a bit lacking but the protesters have not lost trust in them. There was cheering and applause everywhere when army men were first spotted. Especially after what the police forces have been doing the days before.



I'm very well aware that the government and not the people is to blame for Egypt being a third world country. I'm actually not sure if you're arguing against me. I have mostly the same standpoint as you since my first post. It's the people's non-violent nature I applaud and the government I disapprove of. And the military having the public's backing is understandable. They are just people like the rest of the Egyptians and made it clear from the beginning that they will aid and protect the protestants.


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Feb 10, 2011)

France is not the solution.  Tunisia is the answer


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 10, 2011)

i'm confused, did the guy transfer power or not?  what an ass.


----------



## len77 (Feb 10, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> i'm confused, did the guy transfer power or not?  what an ass.



He transferred _some _power. But considering that Sillyman is just as bad, this is no improvement at all. There is no legitimate reason as to why he should stay and he knows this. He's holding on to his remaining power as a drowning man to a lifeboat.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 10, 2011)

len77 said:


> He transferred _some _power. But considering that Sillyman is just as bad, this is no improvement at all. There is no legitimate reason as to why he should stay and he knows this. He's holding on to his remaining power as a drowning man to a lifeboat.



right, i forgot silly man sucks and threatened everybody.


----------



## len77 (Feb 10, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> right, i forgot silly man sucks and threatened everybody.



I found his speech quite funny. It could be basically translated to: ?We tolerated your little act of rebellion long enough! Now, you misbehaving children should go home and leave the rest to the adults!?


----------



## heavy_rasengan (Feb 10, 2011)

len77 said:


> I found his speech quite funny. It could be basically translated to: ?We tolerated your little act of rebellion long enough! Now, you misbehaving children should go home and leave the rest to the adults!?



Lol oh sillyman....what a silly thing to say


----------



## Toby (Feb 10, 2011)

tl;dr He transferred power to Suleiman.

How much power, what power, and exactly how can he prove that? Sure he cited the constitutional clause but he didn't state what powers were devolved. for that matter, Suleiman is already de facto leader and has been for 1 week. This is not news. He is stalling. For what? I hope the army doesn't turn on the crowd. That is really the worst thing I can imagine right now. If the army and police crash Mubarak might give in, even though it would mean bloodshed. But it is the government's fault that blood has been spilled. That much is already proven.


----------



## Bill_gates (Feb 10, 2011)

Damn he trolled the fuck out of everyone today...


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 10, 2011)

I hope that foreign countries put enough pressures on Mubarak or Suleiman so that Egypt will reform into a different regime, hopefully a functioning at least somewhat liberal democratic one. As this moment the possibility of a theocracy or another military dictatorship is out in the air.  The current regime is unsustainable so it should not get its hands dirty trying to survive by any means, I don't see any benefit for anyone for that. If it is going to meets its end, it better do it sooner than later, and by as little bloodshed as possible, but of course the objective here should be a transition to the type of government I described.  Hopefully foreign governments put the pressure on the Mubarak regime. What I am afraid is that there may not be any good solution to this.  If Mubarak (I am mentioning him because he is pulling the strings) and Suleiman does not resign we have a despot remaining in power, and while that happens Egypt goes to chaos because the people does not want it. Which is a catastrophe, no government can work that way and this is also  no benign government by any means. So Mubarak has to go. However even if Mubarak and Suleiman resign, the remaining most popular forces are first the army. Will they support a Democracy or will they support another Dictatorship? 

Beyond the military what is the second most popular front? It seems to me to be the Muslim brotherhood, from what I have seen from PEW survey results, Egyptian Muslims are not the most secular on earth either, but it is just a survey I don't want to reach more conclusions than it is safe to reach. 

There are a lot ifs in this revolution and hopefully the Egyptian people,  Egyptian military and other popular fronts like the MB prove to themselves to be up to the task, and will not create another shitty regime in Egypt. Can't say I am too optimistic but we shall see.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Feb 10, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_1l7VwB8SQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## xenopyre (Feb 11, 2011)

History is repeating itself  he coppyied Ben Ali's last speech to the T(even the timing thursday ) , hope he would be gone by todays afternon .


----------



## Mider T (Feb 11, 2011)

To the Mider T


----------



## xenopyre (Feb 11, 2011)

Also K.S.A is threatening Obama that if he continues in bashing Mubarak and cut the aid , they will give him aid !! aparentely Abdullah is fearing for his thrown if the Egypt protests succeeds . Go Go Egypt !!!!.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 11, 2011)

Pretty big rumours that he's fled to Sharm el Sheikh.

Also, impressed with the demonstraters who managed to keep it peaceful even after Mubarak trolled them yesterday.


----------



## Mael (Feb 11, 2011)




----------



## Jin-E (Feb 11, 2011)

> 1432: "Important" statement from the presidency expected shortly, state TV reports.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

Any guesses what that can be?


----------



## soulnova (Feb 11, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
> 
> Any guesses what that can be?



Seen the headline. Still don't know what he's planning. I guess he can go "If it wasn't for those meddling kids!" and leave... or he's going medieval in their asses. 



> "Two helicoters departed from the presidential palace. Crowd erupts with loud chants: "LEAVE! LEAVE LEAVE!"



... then the place is bombed. Uber troll at work.


----------



## Mael (Feb 11, 2011)

soulnova said:


> ... then the place is bombed. Uber troll at work.



I reiterate:

Outcry:


Response:


----------



## soulnova (Feb 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> I reiterate:
> 
> Outcry:
> 
> ...



Yes yes, the art of Troll if strong on that one.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 11, 2011)

Mubarak has stepped down


----------



## LouDAgreat (Feb 11, 2011)

Just saw it on CNN, Mubarak stepped down. The translator sounded astonished.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 11, 2011)

2 revolutions in 2 Arab countries in less than 2 months

WHo the fuck would have expected something like that a year ago xDDDDDDD


----------



## LouDAgreat (Feb 11, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> 2 revolutions in 2 Arab countries in less than 2 months
> 
> WHo the fuck would have expected something like that a year ago xDDDDDDD



Saudi Arabia next?


----------



## Marknbrut (Feb 11, 2011)

18 days and he finally steps down. About time too...

Well done.


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 11, 2011)

LouDAgreat said:


> Saudi Arabia next?



Expect fucked up gas prices if that happens. 

But seriously, i kinda doubt it. But Algeria, Yemen and Jordan and possibly Libya and Syria as well should feel concerned.

Maybe it will kickstart shit in Iran again too.


----------



## N120 (Feb 11, 2011)




----------



## Scud (Feb 11, 2011)

Good fucking job Egypt.  That took some real balls.


----------



## LouDAgreat (Feb 11, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Expect fucked up gas prices if that happens.
> 
> But seriously, i kinda doubt it. But Algeria, Yemen and Jordan and possibly Libya and Syria as well should feel concerned.
> 
> Maybe it will kickstart shit in Iran again too.



In the long term high gas prices are probably beneficial.  

This is sorta like the domino effect in play. Should be interesting to see over the next few months.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 11, 2011)

Can someone say what Mubarak said? How he stepped down?


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 11, 2011)

There are things i dislike about Egyptian society....but damn, cant help but being touched and happy for their sake when i see the raw explosion of joy and celebration in the streets


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Feb 11, 2011)

Now if only the U.S. can have Barak Obama step down it would be a sign that the world will at last know peace.


----------



## N120 (Feb 11, 2011)

now for suleiman and the rest of NDP :toliet


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 11, 2011)

Narutofann12 said:


> Can someone say what Mubarak said? How he stepped down?



It was Suleiman who went on TV and just held a 10 second statement where he said Mubarak have stepped down and transfered power to a military council

Mubarak hasnt shown himself all day.


----------



## soulnova (Feb 11, 2011)

D: Amazing. I wish for the best to the Egyptian people. Let's hope they get an acceptable new government now. Take note I didn't say good... there will always be some dicks up there. 

I gotta watch those videos when I get back home. :33


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 11, 2011)

congratulations, i'm impressed that they tempered their rage for weeks on end and never went apeshit on each other when fighting a dictator.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 11, 2011)

Kudos to the Egyptian people for getting a dictator out of power but that is half way there or even less, as far as getting a democratic government goes. It is still a very important step, and kudos to them but just because Mubarak is gone it isn't over yet.  Either way they achieved something monumental, but it isn't the end of what needs to be achieved. 

Lets see if the military will stop the emergency law and the Egyptians will get free democratic elections. And hopefully they will get something good out of that.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 11, 2011)

Orochimaru said:


> Calm down, Mubarak isn't going anywhere.





Orochimaru said:


> LOL. I'm in the know and let's leave it at that.



mmm, yes, eat that crow 





The Pink Ninja said:


> Yes, preceding your statement with "LOL" certainly enhances your authority on the anime news board.



qft


----------



## kayanathera (Feb 11, 2011)

it looks very vague and fishyas someone who experienced the overthrow of Ceausescu and saw how you can get rid of the devil and end up with his father I say lets wait and see


----------



## E (Feb 11, 2011)

your country will never have a revolution like this

sadfrog.jpg


----------



## heavy_rasengan (Feb 11, 2011)

Hmmm. What will the military do now that they are about to taste some power


----------



## iander (Feb 11, 2011)

Good job protesters!


----------



## xenopyre (Feb 11, 2011)

Hell yeah Egypt !!!! now to the next country !!


----------



## Jin-E (Feb 11, 2011)

Narutofann12 said:


> Kudos to the Egyptian people for getting a dictator out of power but that is half way there or even less, as far as getting a democratic government goes. It is still a very important step, and kudos to them but just because Mubarak is gone it isn't over yet.  Either way they achieved something monumental, but it isn't the end of what needs to be achieved.
> 
> Lets see if the military will stop the emergency law and the Egyptians will get free democratic elections. And hopefully they will get something good out of that.



True

Establishing a real democracy is harder than toppling a dictator. Expect Mubarak's cronies to fight tooth and nail to keep their positions and prestige.


----------



## Mael (Feb 11, 2011)

E said:


> your country will never have a revolution like this
> 
> sadfrog.jpg



Why does everyone seem to think that'd be the best thing right now?

It's not one-size-fits-all.


----------



## iander (Feb 11, 2011)

Key point will be holding elections within a reasonable amount of time and the military handing power to the elected officials.

The elections should be internationally observed.  They need to be careful to avoid corruption and vote buying.


----------



## Toby (Feb 11, 2011)




----------



## kayanathera (Feb 11, 2011)

iander said:


> Key point will be holding elections within a reasonable amount of time and the military handing power to the elected officials.
> 
> The elections should be internationally observed.  They need to be careful to avoid corruption and vote buying.



I can guarantee you that the most abject demagogy will ensue in the next elections


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Feb 11, 2011)

Mubarak was fired?  Out of a cannon and into the sun one hopes, as such is the preferred method for dealing with politicians well past their sell-by-date.


----------



## Toby (Feb 11, 2011)

When in doubt throw them into space.


----------



## Black Wraith (Feb 11, 2011)

I like the change in the title.

I just hope things go smoothly and quickly.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 11, 2011)

Wow, congrats to Egypt on ridding themselves of this odious man. 

Let's hope this sweeps across the Arab world.


----------



## Mael (Feb 11, 2011)

Toby said:


> When in doubt throw them into space.



Throw 'em in the Dead Space.


----------



## masamune1 (Feb 11, 2011)

heavy_rasengan said:


> Hmmm. What will the military do now that they are about to taste some power



Mubarak was the head of a military junta. The military was propping him up all this time. They've been in power for decades, longer than he has.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Feb 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Throw 'em in the Dead Space.



IF only we did the same thing with people who make shitty puns...


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 11, 2011)

Good riddens but this next bit is the hard part.


----------



## Coteaz (Feb 11, 2011)

It's cute how the Egyptians think they'll actually get a better leader out of this.


----------



## Hand Banana (Feb 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> It's cute how the Egyptians think they'll actually get a better leader out of this.



Best if they just let the Military control them like the puppets they are.


----------



## Utopia Realm (Feb 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> It's cute how the Egyptians think they'll actually get a better leader out of this.



There's only two options for the next leader in Egypt as I see it: Do better than Mubarak or do worse. Which the latter could be detrimental to his health imo.


----------



## Nemesis (Feb 11, 2011)

E said:


> your country will never have a revolution like this
> 
> sadfrog.jpg



Well I am going to go out on a limb here and say your country like near enough everyone's on this site has this thing called an election every 4-5 years to bring in a new Government or retain the old one depending on how the last years were.


----------



## Zhariel (Feb 11, 2011)

Grats Egypt.


Odds of them totally blowing this chance: High


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 11, 2011)

Good to know that this particular face of oppression is gone for those particular folks 

But the challenge is nowhere near finished


----------



## xenopyre (Feb 11, 2011)

There are rumors that Libya is on the way !!! next thursday there will be a Libyan rage day .


----------



## Mael (Feb 11, 2011)

No time wasted by the worthless ones:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/11/us-egypt-gaza-idUSTRE71A52020110211


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> No time wasted by the worthless ones:
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/11/us-egypt-gaza-idUSTRE71A52020110211



you act surprised that egypt's neighbor said something about the historic event that everyone else is saying something about.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 11, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> There are rumors that Lybia is on the way !!! next thursday there will be a Lybian rage day .



Gaddafi next on the hot seat. Or perhaps the Hashemites. 

This should be fun.


----------



## Mael (Feb 11, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> you act surprised that egypt's neighbor said something about the historic event that everyone else is saying something about.



No I'm not...but nothing good will come from Hamas, ever.


----------



## Hand Banana (Feb 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> No I'm not...but nothing good will come from Hamas, ever.



Whats your opinion on that?


----------



## Mael (Feb 11, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Whats your opinion on that?



That's pretty much it.  Every time they get involved with something it's usually rocketing Sderot or using hospitals as command bunkers.

Opening up the Egyptian blockade is just a can of worms waiting to be opened up for smuggling...oh and Iranian help too.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 11, 2011)

There's no guarantee that Egypt will even open the border, but certainly one would expect the restrictions to be relaxed. I would guess that in the end, Egypt will soften the border, but to allow in weapons that incite a war there will create a humanitarian/refugee crisis that Egypt has never wanted.

The easing of the blockade would be the de facto end of the Gaza blockade. Like Seymour Hersh said last night, insofar as Israel's Gaza policy goes, this is Israel's 9/11.


----------



## kayanathera (Feb 11, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Gaddafi next on the hot seat. Or perhaps the Hashemites.
> 
> This should be fun.



I highly doubt that.Libya is stinking rich thanks to oil.Most likely its gonna be Yemen, Jordan and perhaps Algeria


----------



## Deleted member 174958 (Feb 11, 2011)

Yay! 

Muslim brotherhood to ensue.


----------



## Saf (Feb 11, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> West doesn't really seem to understand the kind of powderkeg that's going to be unleashed if Mubarak falls, a democratic Egypt would be a disaster for everyone in the region and for the Egyptians themselves as sad as that is to say. While obviously everybody would prefer that everybody lives in democracy, the Lebanon, Iraq, or Gaza examples demonstrate what kind of instability can result from an Arab democracy. Both to itself and to everybody that has to be around it.
> 
> If Mubarak falls it's going to lead to the biggest catastrophe in the Middle East in recent memory, I just hope all these people preaching about FREEDOM realize that.


Hahahahah, quoting this forever.

"Democracy would be disastrous for _____" is just astounding.


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 11, 2011)

I just hope that nothing bad will come form this. I have this really bad feeling someone bad will takeover and it'll be another fallen country.



> "What's happening in Egypt represents strength to us and to all Arabs. This is a peaceful revolution that *did not vandalize anything*," said Nabil Shaat, a senior member of Abbas' Fatah faction.


What protesters did Nabil see? I saw lots of vandalizing and burnings lol


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh well, all that's left for us now is to dig in and ready ourselves.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 11, 2011)

And if nothing happens Mega, i'll be happy for you  Ease up man


----------



## Coteaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Saf said:


> Hahahahah, quoting this forever.
> 
> "Democracy would be disastrous for _____" is just astounding.


Democracy hasn't had a very good record in the Middle East. Mega's concerns are valid.


----------



## Bleach (Feb 11, 2011)

Democracy is the first step towards a utopia 


/sarcasm


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 11, 2011)

Not a Utopia  But its better than a slavery system, by far.


----------



## Xerces (Feb 11, 2011)

Another dictator will just be ushered in, more ruthless than the last. There's nothing to celebrate.


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 11, 2011)

Xerces said:


> Another dictator will just be ushered in, more ruthless than the last. There's nothing to celebrate.



Sadly, this is the most likely thing to happen. :/


----------



## len77 (Feb 11, 2011)

God-damn, what's with all this pessimism here?!  Shouldn't we just be happy for this (small) victory for now and hope and wish for a better future in the Middle East? I was ecstatic, well, chuffed to bits as they say, when I found out that Mubarak is gone! 

The Egyptians are one step closer to being a democracy and them actually gaining freedom could downright cause a domino effect and maybe, just maybe and even I'm not that optimistic, other countries in the Middle East will reach for freedom and equality. 

I've read similar statements in the other thread about the protests in Egypt. That blood must be spilt, that Mubarak will not leave his office, that much more people will die in the following days and yet nothing like this happened. I'm well aware of what happened in Iran and that a similar thing could happen in Egypt but we should be more optimistic and support the people in the Middle East. Most statements here just sound like the talk of a conservative politician who's living of fear of the people. 

The pessimistic posters are either just bitter or afraid of what may come. I'm not saying to be blind and ignore the negative consequences that may occur but you should consider the positive also.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 11, 2011)

Nobody knows what's going to happen in the future, its just fear mongering


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 11, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> Nobody knows what's going to happen in the future, its just fear mongering



You do know it happen in Iran, right? Its not impossible Egypt will be taken over by another baddie...


----------



## Raiden (Feb 11, 2011)

Gooodbyyee.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 11, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> You do know it happen in Iran, right? Its not impossible Egypt will be taken over by another baddie...



Not every country and demographic is the same where "baddies" are defined by their titles   And we(the US) facilitated in that ousting of that goverment 30 years ago, its great that events happened differently this time than they did then, now we may be learning something although that's probably just a stretch considering that Bush is only a few years prior to us now


----------



## Tony Lou (Feb 11, 2011)

Those Egyptians are gonna get wasted tonight.


----------



## Dolohov27 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hopefully there's a civil war makes for good TV.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Feb 11, 2011)

Forza Egypt


----------



## thunderbear (Feb 11, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> Not every country and demographic is the same where "baddies" are defined by their titles   And we(the US) facilitated in that ousting of that goverment 30 years ago, its great that events happened differently this time than they did then, now we may be learning something although that's probably just a stretch considering that Bush is only a few years prior to us now



...And considering that Obama is president now, failure after failure we raise em on high *thumbs up*


----------



## N120 (Feb 11, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Sadly, this is the most likely thing to happen. :/



It seems like what some people here want though. They'd prefer to put up an oppressor of their choosing rather than take a chance by allowing the egyptians to take a dip in the democratic process and electing a leader for themselves (good or bad, though that may depend on which country your in).

The most important thing imv to come out of this whole revolution trend thats swept across the ME though isnt that regimes may be overthrown, but regardless of where egypt/ME/Africa or any other muslim country heads towards in the near future, is that now the fear factor is broken (or rather reversed) and people have found strength and courage to stand up for what they believe in and wouldn't hesitate to go out in the street to demand what they want.


----------



## len77 (Feb 11, 2011)

Luiz said:


> Those Egyptians are gonna get wasted tonight.



Wish I was there


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 11, 2011)

thunderbear said:


> ...And considering that Obama is president now, failure after failure we raise em on high *thumbs up*



I...fail to see your point?


----------



## Ennoea (Feb 11, 2011)

> You do know it happen in Iran, right? Its not impossible Egypt will be taken over by another baddie...



This wasn't an Islamic revolution, did we even hear the word Islam throughout the protests? I hope they go on to form a secular government, they can't possibly go from Mubarak to another autocratic government, can they?


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 11, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> Not every country and demographic is the same where "baddies" are defined by their titles   And we(the US) facilitated in that ousting of that goverment 30 years ago, its great that events happened differently this time than they did then, now we may be learning something although that's probably just a stretch considering that Bush is only a few years prior to us now



How can you say it happened differently when its not even over yet? Did you see the signs the protesters were holding up? Sometimes I think they want it to happen >.>



> This wasn't an Islamic revolution, did we even hear the word Islam throughout the protests? I hope they go on to form a secular government, they can't possibly go from Mubarak to another autocratic government, can they?


I'm confused by "this". Do you mean what's happening Egypt? If so, its still a revolution that they the people, wanted. Just like in Iran. It was mostly students and young people who fought against Iran for a change...and it failed, badly and now look at Iran.


----------



## Ludwig The Holy Blade (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd like to say this is good news, but I'm torn on the subject.

Mubarak was an asshole, but the prospect of the Islamic brotherhood getting into power makes me sick. I'll be interested to see how this turns out.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 11, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> How can you say it happened differently when its not even over yet? Did you see the signs the protesters were holding up? Sometimes I think they want it to happen >.>



I'm talking about its execution  We went over there and destroyed Iran's government and Iraq's government and installed our own person in there who eventually turned out to be a failure of a puppet, and the same happened in Afghanistan.

I say its different because the toppling of the main authority happened without much blood, it happened by way of communication, and it happened most importantly, _without US military involvement_.


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 11, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> I'm talking about its execution  We went over there and destroyed Iran's government and Iraq's government and installed our own person in there who eventually turned out to be a failure of a puppet, and the same happened in Afghanistan.
> 
> I say its different because the toppling of the main authority happened without much blood, it happened by way of communication, and it happened most importantly, _without US military involvement_.



In Iran, we didn't do anything until after. Were you there during the Revo? When it happened, it happened quick. No one but the people of Iran started the Revo. Its basically, in some degree, just like this. I just hope it doesn't end to have the Muslim Brotherhood or some other crackpot group, take over.

What protest have you've been watching? Because I saw them throwing stones at people, burning Jewish flags, burning figures of Jewish Mubarak, screaming down with the USA, down with America, down with the Jewish, down with Israeli.... People actually got hurt in this protest.

Granted it wasn't that bad, but we have CNN&Fox saying it was _100%_ peaceful, when its wasn't.


----------



## Goobalith (Feb 11, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> West doesn't really seem to understand the kind of powderkeg that's going to be unleashed if Mubarak falls, a democratic Egypt would be a disaster for everyone in the region and for the Egyptians themselves as sad as that is to say. While obviously everybody would prefer that everybody lives in democracy, the Lebanon, Iraq, or Gaza examples demonstrate what kind of instability can result from an Arab democracy. Both to itself and to everybody that has to be around it.
> 
> If Mubarak falls it's going to lead to the biggest catastrophe in the Middle East in recent memory, I just hope all these people preaching about FREEDOM realize that.



Things are never going to get better if people always choose what is stable and certain. If the middle east is to become a better place in the long run, than first steps like these need to occur sooner or later even if there are risks and dangers.


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Feb 12, 2011)




----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 12, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> This statement assumes that the Egyptian people are totally ignorent of the most fundemental tenent in a democracy. Mubarak's resignation was just one part of the protests. Freedom, democracy, and civil rights demands were also heard loud and clear.



How did you get that from Xerces's post...? If some power-group takes over, it doesn't ever mean the people are ignorant so I really don't get how you got that from Xerces's post. >.>

Its called a takeover for a reason and it has happened before in the East


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Feb 12, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> How did you get that from Xerces's post...? If some power-group takes over, it doesn't ever mean the people are ignorant so I really don't get how you got that from Xerces's post. >.>
> 
> Its called a takeover for a reason and it has happened before in the East



From the unstated, implied assertion.

Lets begin a deductive chain:

1) Egyptian protesters and the military currently hold prerogative power in the country. Leaving the country in a mob form of government.
2) The military arguably shares the same sentiment as the people. Though might hold different objectives.
3) The protests were against poverty, oppression, and stagnation. Anger was therefor directed towards the country's despot.
4) Mubarak is fired.
5) People are eager for new government and a return to normalcy. 

How likely is it that a new despotism will succeed in regaining the same dictatorial seat that Mubarak was just kicked out of? Impossible with the Egyptian people's current level of malcontent for dictatorships. 30 years of it was enough. I don't think the worlds biggest megalomaniac right now would touch Egypt with a 10 foot pole.

Terra you're straw men is poorly crafted. I never said the Egyptian people are ignorant[general]. I said the outcome presented by Xerces could only become possible if the Egyptian people did not realize that the alternative to a dictatorship, the democracy I assume they are pursuing, unless you want to argue Egyptians are heading towards communism, would prevent a dictatorship because it requires free elections to take place.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 12, 2011)

egyptians speak and write alot of english, i was surprised.  and 90% of the country is muslim right? they will inevitably have a govt with a bunch of muslims, sorry islamophobes.


----------



## Bleach (Feb 12, 2011)

your posts never cease to amaze me


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 12, 2011)

Bleach said:


> your posts never cease to amaze me



you should pay me for that


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 12, 2011)

A mostly celebratory article and video from BBC about Egypt's new day http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And an opinion article here about what happens next and whether it is too early to celebrate: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

*Spoiler*: __ 






> Viewpoint: Too early to celebrate in Egypt?
> By Shashank Joshi Associate fellow, RUSI
> 
> After 18 days of historic protest, Tahrir Square has finally found reason to let off fireworks and brighten Cairo's night sky.
> ...


----------



## pikachuwei (Feb 12, 2011)

theres going to be a baby boom 9 months from now in egypt


----------



## Platinum (Feb 12, 2011)

Fucking excellent news.


----------



## kayanathera (Feb 12, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> In Iran, we didn't do anything until after. Were you there during the Revo? When it happened, it happened quick. No one but the people of Iran started the Revo. Its basically, in some degree, just like this. I just hope it doesn't end to have the Muslim Brotherhood or some other crackpot group, take over.
> 
> What protest have you've been watching? Because I saw them throwing stones at people, burning Jewish flags, burning figures of Jewish Mubarak, screaming down with the USA, down with America, down with the Jewish, down with Israeli.... People actually got hurt in this protest.
> 
> Granted it wasn't that bad, but we have CNN&Fox saying it was _100%_ peaceful, when its wasn't.



In Iran US overthrew the elected government in 52 I think and then proceeded in running it like a colony


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 12, 2011)

Not all that surprising, the military has always been a more moderate voice in Egyptian politics and they recognize the importance of those U.S. aid packages. As long as they retain some kind of political influence in the country my life may be a lot easier


----------



## reaperunique (Feb 12, 2011)

I wonder which countries are next


----------



## Alien (Feb 12, 2011)

BBC's Chloe Arnold in #Algiers: "It feels as though every policeman in the country has been drafted in and given riot gear."

Al Arabiya & AFP: several thousand people have gathered in Sana'a calling for President Saleh to step down  #Yemen


----------



## zuul (Feb 12, 2011)

Let's see if Egyptians will be smart enough to not let their revolution stolen by fudamentalist low-lifes. Like what happens with Iran.


----------



## dream (Feb 12, 2011)

And the dominoes keep on falling...


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 12, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Not all that surprising, the military has always been a more moderate voice in Egyptian politics and they recognize the importance of those U.S. aid packages. As long as they retain some kind of political influence in the country my life may be a lot easier



no , the only influence they would have in politics past a coup is a vote, like everyone else.  your lack of faith in freedom is downright disturbing.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 12, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Oh well, all that's left for us now is to dig in and ready ourselves.





Megaharrison said:


> Not all that surprising, the military has always been a more moderate voice in Egyptian politics and they recognize the importance of those U.S. aid packages. As long as they retain some kind of political influence in the country my life may be a lot easier



Nothing is going to happen. I know the IDF tells you that Mubarak was the only thing standing between you and bloodthirsty jihadi Arabs pouring across the Sinai, but it's a myth I swear.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 12, 2011)

Ι wonder if we will see a wave of revolutions in the Arab world. I also wonder what is the influence of mass media, The Internet/ Cell Phones/ Social Network sites, and in general of technological development in the Arab World in them. It seems dictatorial governments have let some things uncontrolled.  Anyway, we shall see what happens next...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 12, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> no , the only influence they would have in politics past a coup is a vote, like everyone else.  your lack of faith in freedom is downright disturbing.


Excuse him for being cautious, FapperWocky. Its not like Egypt's led the charge against Israel multiple times over the past, causing thousands of deaths on both sides. 

Stop being so naive. Megaharrison lives in the fucking region-he knows what he's talking about on why everyone should be cautious about Egypt. You saw the pictures of several Egyptians calling for the Death of Israel, after all, and made an anti-Semitic comment.


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 12, 2011)

"several Egyptians"

 sure  

The fact of the matter is Egypt knows where its best interests lie even with no direct leader right now 

Israel's concerns are legitimate but completely blown out of proportion during this case, as i said yesterday; when the world doesn't spontaneously combust, i expect the people worrying to get a good night's sleep afterward. Except maybe Glenn


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 12, 2011)

> The fact of the matter is Egypt knows where its best interests lie even with no direct leader right now



I am not sure what you mean by Egypt, or how you can say that it is the fact of the matter that Egypt knows what are its best interests.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 12, 2011)

Narutofann12 said:


> I am not sure what you mean by Egypt, or how you can say that it is the fact of the matter that Egypt knows what are its best interests.



My mistake,  "The Egyptian Military, which has the power of the state until elections can be formed" knows where Egypt's best interests lie, and that is in a stable democracy that the people championed for. 

They've already put in place emergency law where the constitution can be amended to fix its rigging. I believe that the country has a fair shot.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 12, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> My mistake,  "The Egyptian Military, which has the power until elections can be formed" knows where Egypt's best interests lie, and that is in a stable democracy that the people championed for.



You have answered my Egypt part but you haven't answered my "How do you know this, where do you get this source of information"? Journalists and Analysts don't know this for sure, so I am not sure where your certainty comes from.



> best interests lie, and that is in a stable democracy that the people championed for.



Also note that the discussion here is more than that. It seemed you were addressing the 





> You saw the pictures of several Egyptians calling for the Death of Israel, after all, and made an anti-Semitic comment.


 comment.



> They've already put in place emergency law where the constitution can be amended to fix its rigging. I believe that the country has a fair shot.



Can you provide a link? In any case, in my humble opinion, it it is true, it can be a step forward but I don't know how many steps towards a truly stable democracy the Egyptian military are willing to go. Or Egyptian society is willing to go.


What I agree with is while the concerns of Israel are legitimate, there can be more important things than those concerns. Although a war would be catastrophic for everyone, this revolution does not mean that a war will happen. As a neither Egyptian or Israeli, it seems the welfare of Egypt it self is the most imminent concern. Nevertheless a theocracy will be catastrophic for the Egyptians as well as create problems for their neighbors. But even as that goes, we can't really know what this revolution will result to. I like optimism but I have a more reserved side as well, but the rhetoric that says that without revolutions against dictators their can be no positive change forward is something I find convincing even if I see the possibility for things getting worse. So I have an optimistic stance and I believe that the Egyptians should be helped to reach a stable, as western style as possible, democracy. And geopolitically remain in the western world and not aggressive towards it. But lets not get way out ahead of our selfs and imagine facts of the case when we are not in a position to know them.


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 12, 2011)

I go off of information already gathered from statements given by the military which show them mostly going along with international trade agreements that have been in place. Which is one part of seeking to stabilize its outside influences from feeling jeopardized. 

Maybe you should google Egypt and find out exactly what's going on instead of waiting for me to tell you


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 12, 2011)

And if anyone is still concerned about the "Muslim Brotherhood" this is their official statment.



> _The Muslim Brotherhood ... are not seeking personal gains, so they announce they will not run for the presidency and will not seek to get a majority in the parliament and that they consider themselves servants of these decent people. We support and value the sound direction that the Higher Military Council is taking on the way to transfer power peacefully to create a civilian government in line with the will of the people._


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 12, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> I go off of information already gathered from statements given by the military which show them mostly going along with international trade agreements that have been in place. Which is one part of seeking to stabilize its outside influences from feeling jeopardized.



That information does not lead to the conclusion you reached.  It is not a an incorrect  conclusion to believe based on the available evidence that the military will give in to elections that lead to a stable democracy but there is no certainty. And there is room for concern that it will not happen.  Not to mention the room for concern that Egypt will not know its best interests and while it might do some steps towards a democracy, some negative things will happen. I consider myself among the optimists, but there is no room for optimism with certainty and without cautious concerns on the side. 



> Maybe you should google Egypt and find out exactly what's going on instead of waiting for me to tell you



I think it will be wise in addition to stopping with presenting to have knowledge over things you don't and conclusions that are unsupported to become less presumptuous and rude. I am not waiting you to tell me what is going on and inform me with your conclusions of the situation. If I was looking to be informed (and I am), I wouldn't be looking it to come from you. Of course it is possible that you heard something that I don't in which case I might ask for a link to even see if what you are saying is even true. In this discussion, you mentioned something. I asked for a link, and this is your reply?



Inuhanyou said:


> And if anyone is still concerned about the "Muslim Brotherhood" this is their official statment.



That statement does not stop people from legitimately still being concerned over the Muslim Brotherhood. However it doesn't hurt the MB, and it does help alienate concerns. 

On the other hand, I am not in the know how on how much that statement means and I will try to either research further on the issue, or if I am unable to, refrain from reaching unsubstantiated conclusions (it is possible that nobody at a point can really know how much something means), or put a disclaimer over my conclusions that might not be substantiated. It will be presumptuous to either conclude that the statement means that nobody has any business to be concerned any more or that it means nothing at all.

In any case, the image of the situation that comes from the public statements and promises of popular fronts looks optimistic. Lets see if everyone not only talks the talks but also walks the walk as well. Especially since saying words right now, and doing the actions necessary over a wider timeframe are not necessarily the same thing. But I am optimistic.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 12, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Excuse him for being cautious, FapperWocky. Its not like Egypt's led the charge against Israel multiple times over the past, causing thousands of deaths on both sides.
> 
> Stop being so naive. Megaharrison lives in the fucking region-he knows what he's talking about on why everyone should be cautious about Egypt. You saw the pictures of several Egyptians calling for the Death of Israel, after all, and made an anti-Semitic comment.



there's caution without fearmongering or whining.  frankly i haven't seen one kind word towards egypt coming from isreal, now's not a bad time for an olive branch, call me a day dreaming liberal if you will.


----------



## Darklyre (Feb 12, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> no , the only influence they would have in politics past a coup is a vote, like everyone else.  your lack of faith in freedom is downright disturbing.



"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." 

I'll keep the small amount of faith I have for the Dallas Cowboys.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 12, 2011)

Darklyre said:


> "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
> 
> I'll keep the small amount of faith I have for the Dallas Cowboys.



i'll take my chances against any dictator over tony romo winning it all.


----------



## hcheng02 (Feb 12, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> no , the only influence they would have in politics past a coup is a vote, like everyone else.  your lack of faith in freedom is downright disturbing.



You don't know a lot about politics do you?



FapperWocky said:


> there's caution without fearmongering or whining.  frankly i haven't seen one kind word towards egypt coming from isreal, now's not a bad time for an olive branch, call me a day dreaming liberal if you will.



The problem is that Egypt and Israel already have an olive branch between them. The concern is that Egypt might decide to tear down that olive branch for some good old fashioned Arab/Muslim pride fight for street cred.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 12, 2011)

*Inuhanyou, you know you are not allowed to revenge neg right? * But you did it, and you even say so in your neg. I am not sure if I am doing this right, is there a way to report negs or do I have to send PMs at Mods? Either way I am not letting it go.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 12, 2011)

Narutofann12 said:


> *Inuhanyou, you know you are not allowed to revenge neg right? * But you did it, and you even say so in your neg. I am not sure if I am doing this right, is there a way to report negs or do I have to send PMs at Mods? Either way I am not letting it go.



 I don't agree with the neg system considering your argument was flawed from the start in this thread and i never agreed with it, but you can report me if you want.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 12, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> I don't agree with the neg system considering your argument was flawed from the start in this thread and i never agreed with it, but you can report me if you want.



Your neg description says Revenge Neg. I am not sure what that has to do with my "flawed argument". Anyway, don't respond to this, I didn't post it here to start a discussion, I put it in bold so it will be seen. If not, I will send PMs.


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## pikachuwei (Feb 12, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> no , the only influence they would have in politics past a coup is a vote, like everyone else.  your lack of faith in freedom is downright disturbing.



and your lack of intelligence is downright disturbing



FapperWocky said:


> there's caution without fearmongering or whining.  frankly i haven't seen one kind word towards egypt coming from isreal, now's not a bad time for an olive branch, call me a day dreaming liberal if you will.



you'd be shitting your pants too if the neighbouring country which in the past has led a multinational invasion of your country just had a revolution which could possibly lead to the fragile and unpopular peace treaty between their country and yours to be torn down, leading to another war.

and i consider myself liberal when it comes to politics too


----------



## Luxiano (Feb 12, 2011)

Good riddance.

It's spreading in other arabs country , problem is in Algeria for example if it continues like this it'll be a bloodbath , algerian army has always crushed brutally any opposition.


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 12, 2011)

@Ichi Sagato:


> 1) Egyptian protesters and the military currently hold prerogative power in the country. Leaving the country in a mob form of government.
> 2) The military arguably shares the same sentiment as the people. Though might hold different objectives.
> 3) The protests were *against* poverty, oppression, and stagnation. Anger was therefor directed towards the country's despot.
> *4) Mubarak is fired.*
> *5) People are eager for new government and a return to normalcy.*



Do you actually think for a country to be taken over, the people have to be "for" oppression and all that? Oh dear... 

@Narutofann12:
Just PM a mod about it


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Feb 13, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> @Ichi Sagato:
> 
> 
> Do you actually think for a country to be taken over, the people have to be "for" oppression and all that? Oh dear...
> ...





For a deductive chain to work you have to consider all of the premises. You have obviously not. The premises you missed Terra are these first two:

1) Egyptian protesters and the military currently hold prerogative power in the country. Leaving the country in a mob form of government.
2) The military arguably shares the same sentiment as the people. Though might hold different objectives.

Actually, you give me the impression that you just ignored them. What plausible take over are you talking about? If its anything less than a star wars death star leaping out of hyperspace to attack Egypt, or a mysterious robot army we never knew about, then its not happening. There is no politician alive that is amiable or charismatic enough to "take over the country". As it stands the Egyptian people have put their foot down. They fought it out in the streets by the millions, they gave up there civil lives, they went totally and completely against their government, and have persevered through it all. There is no way that they are going to accept a dictatorship to fill the vacuum they just created. Its not happening.

You seem to be entertaining some fantastical scenario of an unknown force mustering nothing less of an army, and foot soldiers to "take over" and occupy a country as big as Egypt. Please enlighten me about this mysterious horde on the war path toward Egypt. Otherwise, the people and the military right now hold power. The military has demonstrated that it is for the people. There are no immanent power moves evidently coming from that entity. What else remains? How else do you take over a country? Spare me any conspiracies in you're explanation. A holistic, and gradual take over through a period of several years, initiating political power moves, is to fantastical to be considered plausible based on any facts we have know.


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## -Dargor- (Feb 13, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> This has everything to do with us, we border a country whose entire population *randomly* despises us on a level most Westerners won't even begin to understand.




:rofl

Oh how I wish I could be like you, only seing what I wanna see and hear what I wanna hear. Must be beautiful.

This thread is full of lolz

I hope mubarak falls, just to see the middle-east burn and hopefully sink itself, just remind the rest of us the "west" to up the border security when you finally blow yourselves up.


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## makeoutparadise (Feb 13, 2011)

the protesters are not leaving


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## iander (Feb 13, 2011)

> Egyptian military dissolves parliament
> 
> Egypt's new military authorities say they are dissolving parliament and suspending the constitution.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12443678


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## Megaharrison (Feb 13, 2011)

Shinigami_Perv said:
			
		

> Nothing is going to happen. I know the IDF tells you that Mubarak was the only thing standing between you and bloodthirsty jihadi Arabs pouring across the Sinai, but it's a myth I swear.



When you have the largest opposition group in the country consistently calling for war with us combined with the fact that Israel is blamed for just about everything in Egypt, it isn't irrational for us to worry about this situation. The peace treaty with Israel is despised there, for whatever irrational reason.

As I said however I don't think a large-scale direct war is all that likely, the Gypos know what that would do to them and they would gain nothing out of it except destruction and disruption of western aid/tourism which would already hurt their shitty economy. However should the MB get control, they will eventually aid Hamas along the Philadelphi Corridor and with Iran's help allow it to become another Hezbollah, which is bad for both sides as proven by the Lebanon example and Cast Lead. The actual Egypt-Israel border would likely just become a Korea style situation of high tension/occasional skirmishes. 



-Dargor- said:


> :rofl
> 
> Oh how I wish I could be like you, only seing what I wanna see and hear what I wanna hear. Must be beautiful.



Explain how it's justified hatred then.

Anyway, nice to see the military respecting democracy :rofl


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 13, 2011)

iander said:


> > Earlier there were scuffles in Cairo's Tahrir Square as protesters thwarted army efforts to remove them.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12443678



Good. Don't fall for empty promises, Egypt. Very little has actually changed since this started.


----------



## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 13, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Explain how it's justified hatred then.
> 
> Anyway, nice to see the military respecting democracy :rofl



you're overjoyed at every single misstep in this noble effort, and you have the audacity to wonder why people randomly dislike you.  

where do you learn this kind of thinking?


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 13, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Good. Don't fall for empty promises, Egypt. Very little has actually changed since this started.



They just flippin dissolved parliament, how do you expect every thing to be drafted in two days


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Feb 13, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> They just flippin dissolved parliament, how do you expect every thing to be drafted in two days



I don't. I'm pointing out that merely dissolving the old parliament overseen by Mubarak and promising fair elections late this year is not victory. 

Most of the same elites from before this are still running things today, they are the ones promising free and fair elections. Whether they deliver is another matter. The Egyptian people should keep up the pressure since there is no transitional government yet.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 13, 2011)

i don't know about that being the case, those elites as you say were holding onto the regime Mubarak created.  Whereas the military has said normalcy was their goal


----------



## hcheng02 (Feb 13, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> For a deductive chain to work you have to consider all of the premises. You have obviously not. The premises you missed Terra are these first two:
> 
> 1) Egyptian protesters and the military currently hold prerogative power in the country. Leaving the country in a mob form of government.
> 2) *The military arguably shares the same sentiment as the people. Though might hold different objectives.*
> ...



French Revolution, Iranian Revolution, Russian Revolution says hi.



> You seem to be entertaining some fantastical scenario of an unknown force mustering nothing less of an army, and foot soldiers to "take over" and occupy a country as big as Egypt. Please enlighten me about this mysterious horde on the war path toward Egypt. *Otherwise, the people and the military right now hold power. The military has demonstrated that it is for the people.* There are no immanent power moves evidently coming from that entity. What else remains? How else do you take over a country? Spare me any conspiracies in you're explanation. A holistic, and gradual take over through a period of several years, initiating political power moves, is to fantastical to be considered plausible based on any facts we have know.



Correction, the military is for its own interests. They joined the people because Mubarak was a weak leader and it decided to abandon a sinking ship. Don't confuse that with the military working for the people. The people are a means to their own goals.

Stop thinking of this takeover of the new government as some mysterious external force popping out of nowhere to conquer Egypt. We're talking about the old elites who still hold prominent positions manipulating power from behind the scenes - this includes the military. Or a politician using populist rhetoric to seize power. Its happened before, and its more than likely to happen again here.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Feb 13, 2011)

^ Not every country's demographics, or corruption the same, keep it in mind  

Iran is not Egypt, France is not Egypt and Russia is not Egypt, nor is it China. Egypt is Egypt.


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## hcheng02 (Feb 13, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> ^ Not every country's demographics, or corruption the same, keep it in mind
> 
> Iran is not Egypt, France is not Egypt and Russia is not Egypt, nor is it China. Egypt is Egypt.



The endemic corruption of the government, stagnation of civic institutions, along with poverty and radicalism of the populace all do not bode well for whatever new government is going to come along. Egypt is Egypt, but I see nothing that points to the country avoiding the fate of so many other revolutions in the past.


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## Nemesis (Feb 13, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Explain how it's justified hatred then.
> 
> Anyway, nice to see the military respecting democracy :rofl



Not going to say the hatred is justified but mass migration of one group of people into an area which another group has lived in for 1300 years as a majority isn't going to win over friends.

Legalities and historical reasonings aside.


----------



## Toby (Feb 13, 2011)

The first thing you need to know about the Egyptian army is that it values stability. It hates change that could destabilize their power balance. It has also been a defacto government for about 30 years, I'd say. It is partly due to the fact that the Egyptian government has been continually run by incompetent people ever since Nasser's leadership came to an end, and because the army was filled with competent people who wanted to make Egypt work.

All of this is evident in today's news. The Egyptian army announced that Egypt is still committed to all international agreements it has made, including, to Israel's satisfaction, the 1979 agreement. These are government statements, so why are they being made by the army? 

After their first war with Israel, the Egyptian government had no idea what to do with its enormous army. The army's generals, worried about the consequences of releasing tens of thousands of youth from military service into unemployment, developed a plan that has since been the backbone of Egypt. The army became an employer en masse of the youth. Today most of the Egyptian army produces basic foodstuffs, everything from pots and pans, to the basic government services, including water and energy resources - and administrates these, from their military council. 

It is therefore no surprise that the army is in the position to tell the government that it is often in the wrong, and to the extent that they can even act on the people's behalf, and with a good reason. This is somewhat comparable to Turkey, only that in Egypt the army is genuinely interested in stability. In Turkey the army is a last tool of resort. 

Another obvious difference is that in Egypt the civil society matters a lot. Public intellectuals have always enjoyed a lot more influence there because it is a historically rich country with academic institutions and key figures in international politics. It also helps that their political parties are firmly rooted and their voting base is highly condensed. People don't migrate between parties easily in Egypt. That is what makes their movement today so massively important. It is the closest budding alternative to the army, and that is why the army listened to it rather than the corrupt and lazy fat cats of the government.

I honestly expect there to be democratic elections, but the army is definitely not going to give them full democracy right away. I would expect that people receive a lot more say in who runs what part of the government, but the most pressing issue for them being social justice will be less appreciated by the army. After all, their influence on economic issues is enormous. I would expect economic reforms only where the army is interested in shaking things up a bit. 

Note, I don't think the army is all powerful. It clearly lacks some power. For instance, Mubarak's agreement with the army included provisions to allow him to go to the Arab Emirates (where he is currently chilling) with his enormous fortune, numbering in billions of dollars of assets that, in all due fairness, should have been seized. This also begs the question of which foreign governments were informed of the deal, and whether or not Mubarak's travelling plans will be restricted. But the people of Egypt have been robbed of two things: 
1. Justice. Mubarak should have stood trial.
2. A hell of a lot of their savings.

Both of those indicate that the army is more interested in stabilizing Egypt, and an overwhelming belief that they can solve the social justice issues without a show trial.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 13, 2011)

I heard that Mubarak is among the top 10 richest people in the world. Is it true?

Edit: 



70 Billion dollars. He might indeed be the richest man in the world. It would be nice if all those money would go into the Egyptians pockets but it seems it won't happen.


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## Ichi Sagato (Feb 13, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> French Revolution, Iranian Revolution, Russian Revolution says hi.



You obviously know what you're talking about. Go ahead. School me. Don't forget to cite the Wikipedia articles you plan to read from.



hcheng02 said:


> Correction, the military is for its own interests. They joined the people because Mubarak was a weak leader and it decided to abandon a sinking ship. Don't confuse that with the military working for the people. The people are a means to their own goals.



That does not alter the conclusion that the military is currently for the people. There objectives however might be different. Interest is not interchangeable with objective.



hcheng02 said:


> Stop thinking of this takeover of the new government as some mysterious external force popping out of nowhere to conquer Egypt. We're talking about the old elites who still hold prominent positions manipulating power from behind the scenes - this includes the military. Or a politician using populist rhetoric to seize power. Its happened before, and its more than likely to happen again here.



Terra implied a take over scenario where a dictator gained power. Dictatorial power is absolute power of the state. The facets of a despotism are very explicit. I argued against this scenario, which I thought was unlikely. You're description of an oligarchical monopoly of state power is different from the one Terra mentioned. You are confusing the arguments. I am therefor not obligated to refute you're intrusive and impertinent argument.


----------



## hcheng02 (Feb 13, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> You obviously know what you're talking about. Go ahead. School me. Don't forget to cite the Wikipedia articles you plan to read from.



Why not read them yourself and save me the trouble? Or perhaps looking at the results of these revolutions is too unpleasant and might pop your little ideological bubble?



> That does not alter the conclusion that the military is *currently *for the people. There objectives however might be different. Interest is not interchangeable with objective.



And what happens when the military decides that it needs to do something for itself against the people? How much power is the military going to have in this new government? How much control are they going to have over the economy and over society? These are real issues that need to be addressed that affects the freedom of the populace.



> Terra described a take over scenario where a dictator gained power. Dictatorial power is absolute power of the state. The facets of a despotism are very explicit. I argued against this scenario, which I thought was unlikely. You're description of an oligarchical monopoly of state power is different from the one Terra mentioned. You are confusing the arguments. I am therefor not obligated to refute you're intrusive and impertinent argument.



And dictators cannot arise from an oligarchy or revolution? Never mind that Terra wasn't specifying a dictatorship but merely an oppressive government as a whole. The issue is not whether the new government is a dictatorship or an oligarchy. The issue is whether it will ultimately be as repressive as the previous government which has a pretty good chance of happening.


----------



## Megaharrison (Feb 13, 2011)

FapperWocky said:


> you're overjoyed at every single misstep in this noble effort, and you have the audacity to wonder why people randomly dislike you.
> 
> where do you learn this kind of thinking?



They hated us before this thread. Moreover, does a country saying "no kind words" as you put it earlier give you justification to viciously hate them to the point of self-destruction? Having your feelings hurt isn't a legitimate reason for war.



			
				Nemesis said:
			
		

> Not going to say the hatred is justified but mass migration of one group of people into an area which another group has lived in for 1300 years as a majority isn't going to win over friends.
> 
> Legalities and historical reasonings aside.



An immigration that for all intensive purposes didn't effect them, except regarding their occupation of Gaza.


----------



## Mael (Feb 13, 2011)

Gaudy Gaddafi jumps on the opportunity to spread lulz:


My response:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Feb 14, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> And what happens when the military decides that it needs to do something for itself against the people? How much power is the military going to have in this new government? How much control are they going to have over the economy and over society? These are real issues that need to be addressed that affects the freedom of the populace.



Supposition.



hcheng02 said:


> And dictators cannot arise from an oligarchy or revolution?



I never said that.



hcheng02 said:


> Never mind that Terra wasn't specifying a dictatorship but merely an oppressive government as a whole.



Let Terra speak for herself. She is more then capable of mouthing her own mouth piece.



hcheng02 said:


> The issue is not whether the new government is a dictatorship or an oligarchy. The issue is whether it will ultimately be as repressive as the previous government which has a pretty good chance of happening.



I never argued against this. You've managed to scramble my argument into several random pieces. If you've got a point to prove, try someone else. You do not interest me.


----------



## hcheng02 (Feb 14, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> Supposition.



Supposition with facts and historical examples to back it up. Try again.





> I never said that.



You were outright stating that something like that would never happen in Egypt.



			
				Ichi Sagato said:
			
		

> As it stands the Egyptian people have put their foot down. They fought it out in the streets by the millions, they gave up there civil lives, they went totally and completely against their government, and have persevered through it all. There is no way that they are going to accept a dictatorship to fill the vacuum they just created. Its not happening.



A bunch of us are arguing that it can happen. Its not ideal but its far from a remote possibility. You're just covering your ears with your hands and screaming "I Can't Hear You!" 



> Let Terra speak for herself. She is more then capable of mouthing her own mouth piece.



I'm not the one putting words into her mouth by claiming she meant a dictatorship rather than an oligarchy.



> I never argued against this. You've managed to scramble my argument into several random pieces. If you've got a point to prove, try someone else. You do not interest me.



You just spent the last couple of posts arguing that the Egyptian Revolution would not result in a new oppressive government because the people would not stand for it, that the military was working for the people. 



			
				Ichi Sagato said:
			
		

> A holistic, and gradual take over through a period of several years, initiating political power moves, is to fantastical to be considered plausible based on any facts we have know.



You make a claim you better be able to defend it instead of being a holier than though pompous ass.


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## Ichi Sagato (Feb 14, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Supposition with facts and historical examples to back it up. Try again.



Supposition: Uncertain belief. 

You can have facts to support you're argument. You can make you're argument more compelling by citing historical examples. You can even insert silly punch lines at the end of you're retorts. But if you're argument does not follow necessarily from the premises to the conclusion it is logically based on incomplete evidence. 

I expect all of this to go over you're head though. 



hcheng02 said:


> You were outright stating that something like that would never happen in Egypt.



Prove it. Quote me. Delineate where exactly I took that explicit position.



hcheng02 said:


> A bunch of us are arguing that it can happen. Its not ideal but its far from a remote possibility. You're just covering your ears with your hands and screaming "I Can't Hear You!"



You are not arguing anything. I don't remember ever welcoming you to debate a matter of personal opinion between me and Terra. Maybe if you were not so intrusive I would not have approached you coarsely.



hcheng02 said:


> I'm not the one putting words into her mouth by claiming she meant a dictatorship rather than an oligarchy.



You still insist on speaking on her behalf. Use you're comprehension. Putting 'words into someones mouth' and speaking on their behalf are two different things. I would much rather have Terra accuse me of constructing a straw man then a tactless attention seeker intruding on an A and B conversation. Kindly buzz off.



hcheng02 said:


> You just spent the last couple of posts arguing that the Egyptian Revolution would not result in a new oppressive government because the people would not stand for it, that the military was working for the people.



_"I never argued against this. You've managed to scramble my argument into several random pieces. If you've got a point to prove, try someone else. You do not interest me."_/QUOTE




hcheng02 said:


> You make a claim you better be able to defend it instead of being a holier than though pompous ass.



You're not impressing me much. Don't tell me what to do either.



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Kindly buzz off.


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## hcheng02 (Feb 14, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> Supposition: Uncertain belief.
> 
> You can have facts to support you're argument. You can make you're argument more compelling by citing historical examples. You can even insert silly punch lines at the end of you're retorts. But if you're argument does not follow necessarily from the premises to the conclusion it is logically based on incomplete evidence.
> 
> I expect all of this to go over you're head though.



All beliefs have a degree of uncertainty. Thats why you try to argue through facts and precedent. 



> Prove it. Quote me. Delineate where exactly I took that explicit position.



I already did. 



Ichi Sagato said:


> As it stands the Egyptian people have put their foot down. They fought it out in the streets by the millions, they gave up there civil lives, they went totally and completely against their government, and have persevered through it all. *There is no way that they are going to accept a dictatorship to fill the vacuum they just created. Its not happening.*





> You are not arguing anything. I don't remember ever welcoming you to debate a matter of personal opinion between me and Terra. Maybe if you were not so intrusive I would not have approached you coarsely.
> 
> You still insist on speaking on her behalf. Use you're comprehension. Putting 'words into someones mouth' and speaking on their behalf are two different things. I would much rather have Terra accuse me of constructing a straw man then a tactless attention seeker intruding on an A and B conversation. Kindly buzz off.
> 
> ...



If you post on this thread than expect others to be able to respond to you and debate your points. If you want to keep it just between you and Terra, than use PMs. As it is, this just shows how poorly you take criticism and debate.


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## Ichi Sagato (Feb 14, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> All beliefs have a degree of uncertainty. Thats why you try to argue through facts and precedent.



Deduction can give a semblance of certainty. I accused you're argument, which I thought had insufficient evidence, of being a supposition on grounds that it was deductively invalid. 



hcheng02 said:


> I already did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How is this an example of me claiming that _"dictators cannot arise from an oligarchy or revolution"_? Generalizing my statements?



hcheng02 said:


> If you post on this thread than expect others to be able to respond to you and debate your points. If you want to keep it just between you and Terra, than use PMs. As it is, this just shows how poorly you take criticism and debate.



Please go away.


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## Elim Rawne (Feb 14, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> Supposition: Uncertain belief.
> 
> You can have facts to support you're argument. You can make *you're argument* more compelling by citing historical examples. You can even insert silly punch lines at the end of *you're retorts*. But if *you're argument *does not follow necessarily from the premises to the conclusion it is logically based on incomplete evidence.
> 
> I expect all of this to go over you're head though.



You act condescending towards people and try to educate them on language and yet you can't distinguish between "your" and "you're". 

Fucking A


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## Ichi Sagato (Feb 15, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> You act condescending towards people and try to educate them on language and yet you can't distinguish between "your" and "you're".
> 
> Fucking A



Thank you Elim Rawne, I did not realize that. I actually think that I make plenty of grammar mistakes.

Correcting someone on the definition of a word so as to clarify an argument is not condescending. Doing it out of spite on the other hand is little more then anal. You fit the latter.

For example, I would be anal if I was to point out that you used an incorrect contraction in writing "and yet you can't". 'Cannot' would be more appropriate. Since you are referring to two subjective personal pronouns. Since your statement comprises at least three elements, you should have separated each element with a comma, omitting the 'and'. More reasons exist for using a comma, besides the reason of using a subject to verb relationship in describing my poor use of grammar. I could go on and on. In fact, I spot several grammar errors in this post right now. But if I was to take your approach, then I would be no better than you.


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## Elim Rawne (Feb 15, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> Thank you Elim Rawne, I did not realize that. I actually think that I make plenty of grammar mistakes.
> 
> Correcting someone on the definition of word so as to clarify an argument is not condescending. Doing it out of spite on the other hand is little more then anal. You fit the latter.



Your general tone and how respond to things is condescending. You try look informed and smart, but the fact of the matter is, you're just another kid trying to look smart by using "big words" .


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## Ichi Sagato (Feb 15, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Your general tone and how respond to things is condescending. You try look informed and smart, but the fact of the matter is, you're just another kid trying to look smart by using "big words" .



The real fact of the matter is, you don't know anything about me. I'm not going to bicker with you.


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## Terra Branford (Feb 15, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> And dictators cannot arise from an oligarchy or revolution? Never mind that Terra wasn't specifying a dictatorship but merely an oppressive government as a whole. The issue is not whether the new government is a dictatorship or an oligarchy. *The issue is whether it will ultimately be as repressive as the previous government which has a pretty good chance of happening.*



Thank you. And it just might turn out worse than the previous government....

These things tend to go South for the East. It has happened many times before and just because the country's people want their freedoms and whatnot, doesn't mean it'll keep out *anything* that's bad.



> I never argued against this. You've managed to scramble my argument into several random pieces. If you've got a point to prove, try someone else. You do not interest me.



Um....you said _nothing like_ that of which I said or Xerces said, _could happen_. I told you you didn't know this for sure, as it happened before.

You have been arguing with me that the Egyptian people wouldn't be "taken over" because they wouldn't *want* it and because they wanted their freedom. That's exactly what you said in smaller form.



			
				You said:
			
		

> This statement assumes that the Egyptian people are totally ignorent of the most fundemental tenent in a democracy. Mubarak's resignation was just one part of the protests. Freedom, democracy, and civil rights demands were also heard loud and clear.





> *How likely is it that a new despotism will succeed in regaining the same dictatorial seat that Mubarak was just kicked out of? Impossible with the Egyptian people's current level of malcontent for dictatorships. 30 years of it was enough. I don't think the worlds biggest megalomaniac right now would touch Egypt with a 10 foot pole.*
> 
> Terra you're straw men is poorly crafted. I never said the Egyptian people are ignorant[general]. *I said the outcome presented by Xerces could only become possible if the Egyptian people did not realize that the alternative to a dictatorship, the democracy I assume they are pursuing, unless you want to argue Egyptians are heading towards communism, would prevent a dictatorship because it requires free elections to take place.*





> As it stands the Egyptian people have put their foot down. They fought it out in the streets by the millions, they gave up there civil lives, they went totally and completely against their government, and have persevered through it all. *There is no way that they are going to accept a dictatorship to fill the vacuum they just created. Its not happening.*


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## Ichi Sagato (Feb 15, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Thank you. And it just might turn out worse than the previous government....
> 
> These things tend to go South for the East. It has happened many times before and just because the country's people want their freedoms and whatnot, doesn't mean it'll keep out *anything* that's bad.
> 
> ...



Terra I said the Egyptian people would not allow an oppressive government to immediately take hold due to their (Egyptian people) current sentiment. This is different then  a scenario where they are 'taken over'. Which I assume translates to some form of conventional force. The only entity I am aware that is remotely capable of this, practically and willingly, is the Egyptian army itself. But if we accept that the army shares the same interest as the people (free and fair elections), then there should not be a conflict.

My cat is bored. I'm going to go entertain it.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 15, 2011)

*Internet wasn't real hero of Egypt*


Editor's note: Rebecca MacKinnon is a Bernard L. Schwartz senior fellow at the New America Foundation, co-founder of the international bloggers' network Global Voices Online and a founding member of the Global Network Initiative. Her book, "Consent of the Networked," will be published this year by Basic Books.

(CNN) -- When asked what he thought of the French Revolution, China's first premier Chou En-lai famously replied: "It's too soon to tell." What role did the Internet play in the Egyptian Revolution? People will be arguing about the answer to that question for decades if not centuries.

Wael Ghonim, the Google executive whose anonymous online activism helped bring people into the streets for those fateful protests on January 25, told CNN's Wolf Blitzer that "the revolution started on Facebook," and "if you want to liberate a society just give them the Internet."

Ghonim is modest. He rejects the label of "hero" and prefers to deflect credit to others. But let's be clear: He and hundreds of thousands of other Egyptians are the heroes, whether they were inspired to join the protests in Tahrir Square in the new way through Twitter or the old-fashioned way thorough their neighbors and co-workers.

The Internet, mobile phones and social networking platforms were the tools of a smaller, tech-savvy vanguard. The revolutionaries used these tools skillfully -- as successful revolutionaries always manage to do with the most disruptive technologies of their day.

Would the Protestant Reformation have happened without the printing press? Would the American Revolution have happened without pamphlets? Probably not. But neither printing presses nor pamphlets were the heroes of reform and revolution.

Now as then, the people are the heroes. People like Ghonim and countless others who were willing to risk their jobs, go to jail, face torture or death for the sake of their ideals. Without a critical mass of flesh-and-blood people willing to take life-and-death risks, connectivity on its own is not enough to bring down the kind of ruthless dictatorship that allows its police to bludgeon innocent people to death on a regular basis in order to stay in power.

The Egyptian Revolution makes it clear, if anybody was in doubt, that digital technologies are going to play a powerful role in the future of global politics. But we should expect that role to be unpredictable, and not always on the side of whoever one might call the "good guys."

The Internet is not magic "freedom juice." As Evgeny Morozov documents in his new book The Net Delusion, the Internet can be used by authoritarian regimes to manipulate, censor and monitor their citizens in subtle and sophisticated new ways. Radio was used powerfully by Josef Goebbels to disseminate Nazi propaganda, and just as powerfully by King George VI to inspire the British people to fight invasion.

The Egyptian Revolution also serves as a warning to technology companies doing business with authoritarian regimes around the world. As Vodafone learned over the past several weeks, doing the dictatorship's bidding one week may make as much good business sense as it has for many years. The next week, your company and your brand can find itself very much on the wrong side of history.

After complying without challenging government orders to switch off service at the height of the protests, and relaying government instructions to attend pro-Mubarak rallies after service was re-established, Vodafone is now working hard to build up trust with the revolutionaries who will shape Egypt's future.

In recent days Vodafone Egypt has been posting messages in English and Arabic on Facebook and Twitter about free text messaging over the next few days and amnesty for unpaid phone bills until life returns to normal.

Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg and his colleagues should all be extraordinarily proud that their service was a key tool of the heroes of the Egyptian Revolution. Yet that does not mean that however Facebook feels like designing and managing its service is automatically the best thing for democracy.
Social media and a revolution
Egyptians tweet about aftermath
RELATED TOPICS

    * Egypt
    * Internet
    * Facebook Inc.
    * Twitter Inc.

Facebook has won deserved praise for finally -- after much prodding from activist groups -- rolling out more secure login features. On the other hand, activists around the world -- including many in Egypt -- have struggled in recent months to deal with deactivated accounts and disabled pages at politically crucial times because they failed to use their real names on their Facebook accounts.

Facebook has grown increasingly aggressive over the past year in enforcing long-standing (though often flouted or poorly understood) terms of use requiring that people use only their real names and provide proof when challenged. In many countries where it is too dangerous to use your real name when carrying out online activism, would-be revolutionaries defy Facebook's terms-of-service and gamble that they won't be caught.

After all, being caught by Facebook for using a fake name is trivial compared to being caught by the police for organizing against the government. This gamble has worked out for many people much of the time, but it places them in a vulnerable position: Months or years of activism can be wiped out instantly in the midst of planning a vital demonstration.

If there ever was a time for companies to make a clear and public commitment to upholding the rights of their users and customers all over the world, this is it. Those who do so will find their businesses rewarded for being on the right side of history. For those who don't, there is always the dustbin.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Rebecca MacKinnon.

and:

*Spoiler*: __ 




(CNN) -- Unrest has spread across the Middle East and North Africa. Here's a look at what has happened -- and what is happening -- in various countries:

ALGERIA

Authorities in Algeria said Monday that they would lift a 20-year state of emergency in the "coming days." They acted after anti-government protesters chanting "change the power!" clashed with security forces in the capital over the weekend, witnesses said. The state of emergency was imposed in 1992 to quell a civil war that led to the deaths of what U.S. officials estimate to be more than 150,000 people. About 100 protesters were arrested during the protests in Algiers on Saturday, according to the opposition Algerian League for Human Rights.

BAHRAIN

Protests were scheduled to take place Monday afternoon in the Persian Gulf nation of Bahrain, where at least three police officers and one demonstrator were injured in clashes Sunday, the state new agency reported. The injuries occurred during an attack on a police station during protests Sunday evening, the news agency said. After three officers were injured, police fired on protesters with rubber bullets, causing one injury, the news agency said.
Egypt's domino effect
Yemen follows Egypt in protests
Opposition rallies brew in Iran
Egyptian military takes charge
RELATED TOPICS

    * Middle East
    * Iran
    * Iraq
    * North Africa
    * Egypt

EGYPT

Unrest persisted in Egypt on Monday even after an 18-day revolution toppled longtime President Hosni Mubarak, who stepped down Friday. Egypt's banks remained closed Monday after protests by National Bank workers apparently drove out the head of the institution. The nation's stock market remained closed until further notice because of turmoil in the banking sector. In addition, current and former police officers continued a peaceful protest Monday in front of the Interior Ministry, saying they want higher pay, shorter hours, better benefits and more respect. And some police officers told reporters they were ordered to shoot protesters during demonstrations last week and threatened with prison if they did not.

IRAN

Tens of thousands of demonstrators marched along Revolution Avenue in downtown Tehran on Monday, protesting the government of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, witnesses said. The wave of people remained largely silent as they walked toward the capital city's Azadi Square, though some clashes between security forces and demonstrators broke out in several parts of Tehran, according to witnesses. Security forces fired tear gas in some places and detained demonstrators in other areas of the city. The Iranian government rounded up activists last week after opposition leaders Mehdi Karrubi and Mir Hossein Moussavi called for supporters to gather at Azadi Square -- the site of mass protests by Iran's opposition movement after the disputed 2009 presidential elections.

IRAQ

Thousands of people rallied this month in cities across the country, protesting rampant poverty, a 45% national unemployment rate and shortages of food, electricity and water. Most recently, hundreds of angry demonstrators took to the streets of Ramadi -- about 60 miles (100 kilometers) west of Baghdad -- to protest the government's inability to provide basic services. After the protests began, Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki announced he would cut his salary in half amid the growing unrest over poor public services and water shortages. State television also reported this month that al-Maliki would not run for a third term when his current one expires in 2014.

JORDAN

U.S. Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, traveled over the weekend to Jordan, where King Abdullah II swore in a new government last week following anti-government protests in his country. The new government has a mandate for political reform and is headed by a former general, with several opposition and media figures among its ranks. The appointment of new Prime Minister Marouf al Bakhit was seen as an attempt to shore up support among Jordan's Bedouin tribes -- the bedrock of the monarchy. Jordan's economy has been hard-hit by the global economic downturn and rising commodity prices, and youth unemployment is high, as it is in Egypt. Officials close to the palace have told CNN that Abdullah is trying to turn a regional upheaval into an opportunity for reform.

LIBYA

There were calls made through Facebook for a day of peaceful demonstrations in Libya on Monday. The protests come in the shadow of leader Moammar Gadhafi, who has ruled the country for almost 40 years and had expressed support for former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak during the crisis there. It was not immediately clear Monday whether protests had taken place.

PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES

Prime Minister Salam Fayyad's Cabinet submitted its resignations to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Monday, days after the announcement of new elections in September. The Palestinian Territories have not seen the same kind of demonstrations as in many Arab countries, but the government has been under criticism since Al-Jazeera published secret papers claiming to reveal some of the wide-ranging concessions Palestinian officials were prepared to make in negotiations with Israel. Negotiations have collapsed. Abbas' Palestinian Authority holds sway only over the West Bank. The militant Islamist movement Hamas controls Gaza.

SYRIA

As protests heated up around the region, the Syrian government pulled back from a plan to withdraw some subsidies that keep the cost of living down in the country. President Bashar al-Assad also gave a rare interview to Western media, telling The Wall Street Journal for a January 31 article that he planned reforms that would allow for local elections and also included a new media law and more power for private organizations. A planned "Day of Rage" that was being organized on Facebook for February 5 failed to materialize, The New York Times reported.

SUDAN

Demonstrators have clashed with authorities on several recent occasions in Sudan. Human Rights Watch has said that "authorities used excessive force during largely peaceful protests on January 30 and 31 in Khartoum and other northern cities to call for an end to the National Congress Party rule and government-imposed price increases." Witnesses said that security forces used pipes, sticks and tear gas to disperse protesters and that several were arrested, including 20 who remain missing. The Sudanese Embassy said that people in Sudan have the right to "demonstrate as they wish" but that "some opportunists capitalize" on incidents "to inspire chaos or smear Sudan's image."

TUNISIA

The European Union's top foreign policy official, Catherine Ashton, met Monday with government and civil society leaders in Tunisia, the North African country where protests in December sparked unrest that has spread across North Africa and the Middle East. After weeks of demonstrations that started in December, longtime President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali fled the country. Since then, Italy has complained about a wave of migrants from Tunisia coming into its territory.

YEMEN

Clashes broke out between pro- and anti-government protesters in Yemen's capital, Sanaa, for at least the third day in a row Monday. About 200 anti-government protesters were confronted by about 300 counter-demonstrators, and the two sides threw rocks at each other and brandished daggers and knives. Several protesters were arrested. On Sunday, hundreds of anti-government protesters marched toward the presidential palace, but were blocked by security forces. Protesters attempted to reach the palace on side streets, and riot police reportedly used force in attempting to disperse them. Human rights group Amnesty International condemned the use of force in a statement issued Monday. Clashes also erupted Friday night and Saturday. Yemen's Embassy in Washington said the opposition coalition had announced its intention to hold a dialogue with the administration. Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh has been in power for 32 years and has pledged not to run for re-election when his current term ends in 2013.


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## LouDAgreat (Feb 15, 2011)

> Ousted Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is near death, possibly in a coma, according to Egyptian newspapers.
> 
> The 83-year-old disgraced despot fell into a coma Saturday, a day after he fled Cairo for the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, according to the daily Al-Masry Al-Youm.
> 
> ...


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## MF NaruSimpson (Feb 15, 2011)

wow, amazing, i wonder if he's pissed that he couldn't die as president


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