# VotE Madara vs. MS Obito with both eyes



## MYJC (Feb 17, 2015)

Location: VotE
Prep: None
Starting distance: 50m
Knowledge: Full knowledge on both sides. This also means that Madara has knowledge of Kamui's weaknesses (time limit, etc.).

Conditions: 

1. The match starts out with nothing summoned. Obito can summon Gedo Mazo if he wants, and Madara can summon Kurama if he wants.This is the version of Gedo Mazo that Obito summoned during the war to fight Chouji and his dad.

2. Obito's body is still half Senju DNA, so he gets access to any abilities that granted him in the manga (ie. Mokuton).

3. This is the version of Madara that fought Hashirama. So no Rinnegan or Mokuton.

4. Madara loses if he gets transported to Kamuiland and can't get back to the battlefield. However if he has a way to return (ie. Izanagi) then he's still in the fight.


Who takes it?


----------



## Trojan (Feb 17, 2015)

Obito wins due to madara lack of anyway whatsoever to hit him with anything...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

It depends on who outlasts each other which I bet my money on VoTE Madara.


----------



## MYJC (Feb 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito wins due to madara lack of anyway whatsoever to hit him with anything...



I don't know if I'd say Mads has no way whatsoever to hit him considering he has full knowledge of Kamui. 

He knows that Obito has to turn tangible in order to attack (or warp) him so he could do like Minato and try to hit Obito right when he turns tangible to attack. And Madara knows about the five minute time limit so he could try to attack Obito continuously for five minutes the way Konan did. He could also try to genjutsu Obito. Or tire him out until he's too low on chakra to use Kamui.

Not saying it'll be easy but Mads has options.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 17, 2015)

No, he can't do like Minato because he is no where as fast as him. Actually, even as JJ SM Madara couldn't attack Obito, and you even gave him both of his eyes here, which means he is twice as fast. If Madara couldn't do that in his strongest incarnation, there is absolutly no chance for him in a far weaker incarnation to do so.

And he also does not have any jutsu that works like Konan's jutsu, so that information wont help him either, just
like how it did not help the SA even though they had knowledge of it.


----------



## MYJC (Feb 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, he can't do like Minato because he is no where as fast as him. Actually, even as JJ SM Madara couldn't attack Obito, and you even gave him both of his eyes here, which means he is twice as fast. If Madara couldn't do that in his strongest incarnation, there is absolutly no chance for him in a far weaker incarnation to do so.
> 
> And he also does not have any jutsu that works like Konan's jutsu, so that information wont help him either, just
> like how it did not help the SA even though they had knowledge of it.




Do we really know that JJ Madara wasn't fast enough to attack Obito?

I mean Madara wasn't even really trying to counter Kamui in the manga, Obito pretty much sucker Kamui'd Madara because he got cocky. Obito basically turned intangible when Madara wasn't expecting it (because he thought Obito was still loyal to him and too weak to do anything) and then Obito warped to Kamuiland before Madara could do anything about it. 

Things probably would've gone differently if he was expecting the Kamui from the start. 



Another option Madara has is tricking Obito with a clone like Naruto did. Basically tricking Obito into warping a clone into Kamuiland, and then having the clone attack Obito's body from Kamuiland anytime Obito tries to go intangible after that. Or like I said, trying to catch him with genjutsu. 

Madara might have to be a bit tricky but I don't buy that he has no options against Kamui.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

MYJC said:


> Do we really know that JJ Madara wasn't fast enough to attack Obito?
> 
> I mean Madara wasn't even really trying to counter Kamui in the manga, Obito pretty much sucker Kamui'd Madara because he got cocky. Obito basically turned intangible when Madara wasn't expecting it (because he thought Obito was still loyal to him and too weak to do anything) and then Obito warped to Kamuiland before Madara could do anything about it.



 Yes we do know. He had his eyesight along with his sensing capabilities yet still couldn't strike him down. Even Obito implied that Madara's Gedodama was the only threat to his Kamui which implies Madara's striking speed wasn't fast enough.



> Things probably would've gone differently if he was expecting the Kamui from the start.



 No it would not which is why he had to rely solely on Gedodama. 





> Another option Madara has is tricking Obito with a clone like Naruto did. Basically tricking Obito into warping a clone into Kamuiland, and then having the clone attack Obito's body from Kamuiland anytime Obito tries to go intangible after that. Or like I said, trying to catch him with genjutsu.
> 
> Madara might have to be a bit tricky but I don't buy that he has no options against Kamui.



 Well, Obito never tried to absorb his Kage Bushin in the first place. It's debatable whether or not Madara has high enough speed to the point where Obito would've resorted to absorbing the clone in that instant when he didn't do so against BM Naruto.


----------



## Alucardemi (Feb 17, 2015)

I fucking hate to say it, but KamuiGG.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 18, 2015)

> It depends on who outlasts each other which I bet my money on VoTE Madara.



This. And Madara has a chance of hitting Obito due to the fact he knows about 5 minutes limit, is very fast and has EMS precognition.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 18, 2015)

first of all obito has senju chakra as well as his own boosting him meaning he can outlast madara...second madara is literally helpless against double kamui snipe..... all obito needs to do is warp the ps head gem with double kamui...madara has no way of hitting obito as madara even juubidara could not tag obito before he could go intangible even while obito was basically dead...worst of all obito should be able to wrest control of kurama from madara considering he has ms enhanced by senju dna and gedo mazo basically a trio of bijuu kryptonite..


----------



## Mercurial (Feb 18, 2015)

Kamui GG. Obito warps himself in front of Madara (him being in Perfect Susanoo avatar or not changes nothing) and Kamui GG. Or he warps Perfect Susanoo's head with Madara in it. Or just warps Madara away. Anyway Madara can't really hit him and Obito can warp him with long range Kamui.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 18, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Obito clowns him with the easiest of difficulties
> 
> -- DMS Obito has the rikudo chakra amping his PS up, making it far far superior to madaras, as a few PS slashes from Obito is all thats needed to obliterate madaras PS and his kyuubi
> 
> ...



this isnt rikudo obito this is ms obito just with both eyes ..rikudo obito would be a massive stomp..


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 18, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> this isnt rikudo obito this is ms obito just with both eyes ..rikudo obito would be a massive stomp..



But canon DMS Obito is the one that has Rikudo chakra 
I'll edit my post then


----------



## Veracity (Feb 18, 2015)

Full knowlege ? Madara wins everytime here.

All he has to do is run around activating merely a Ribcage Sussano to block kamui snipe( or avoid it himself lol).  Anything bigger then a ribcage Sussano is a waste of chakra and actually puts Madara at risk. 

Madara closes the gap between Obito, and with kage Bunshin and superior CQC ability rapes Obito, or tricks him into warping a kage Bunshin. If Obito doesn't fall prey to that Madara outlasts here.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 18, 2015)

Depends on how strong Obito's Susanoo would be without any rikudo chakra as well as what weapons it would have but if I had to take a shot in the dark I'd slightly side with Obito winning


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 18, 2015)

Madara wins this 

 -- with obito lacking the rikudo chakra here, means that his susanooo gets obliterated by PS-Kyuubi, the extra firepowwer that kyuubi provides for madara here on top of his own PS is enormous, obitos PS slashes are garbage as they are not even scratching this strucuture, whilst PS-infused-TBB barrages obliterate his PS 

 -- kamui shurikens are not doing shit either, they are either countered by YM, blown away by a single PS slash, or intercepted by a PS sword 

 -- once PS is out for obito, madara can troll obito with shadow clones, madara is much faster than him, has a far superior precog, and far superior striking sppeed, so the moment obito solidifies to attack, he gets outnumbered and attacked by the other clones,


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 18, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Madara wins this
> 
> -- with obito lacking the rikudo chakra here, means that his susanooo gets obliterated by PS-Kyuubi, the extra firepowwer that kyuubi provides for madara here on top of his own PS is enormous, obitos PS slashes are garbage as they are not even scratching this strucuture, whilst PS-infused-TBB barrages obliterate his PS
> 
> ...



kamui shuriken countered by ym ps does not use ym and to think a ym from v3 sussano is going to stop kmaui shuriken is laughable the interesting thing with kamui shuriken is that they ignore durability completely cannot be defended against if they land kyuubisussano is done...

but why would obito even use ps in the first place he has no reason to engage in acontest of firepower when he has insane hax....he has both eyes meaning he can double kamui snipe while staying intangible....kakashi while exhausted managed to kamui something as big as gedo mazos arm obito is boosted by both uchiha chakra and hashis chakra meaning he is easily capable of warping the gem that houses madara on ps head and with double kamuis speed madara isnt evading or tagging obito ever...worst still obito has hashi chakra enhancing his reserves unlike madara who will tire out using ps...


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 18, 2015)

actually a case can also be made for obito, so ill already go ahead and say that it could go either way 



sabre320 said:


> kamui shuriken countered by ym ps does not use ym


Since when can a stronger susanoo not use something thats from a weaker susanoo? 
and what is this based on? 


> and to think a ym from v3 sussano is going to stop kmaui shuriken is laughable


No iits not, 
YM hits Kamui shuriken (KS) and the kamui shuriken warp them away 
so the enttire problem is solved as the shuriken warp whatever they get into contact with 



> the interesting thing with kamui shuriken is that they ignore durability completely cannot be defended against if they land kyuubisussano is done...


thats good and all but they never get to such stage, 
they can be countered by alot of characters, 
hell even a katon would suffice 



> but why would obito even use ps in the first place he has no reason to engage in acontest of firepower when he has insane hax....


Yeah thats why i think this could go either way, 
however if he does use PS, then PS-Kyuubi overwhelms it 



> he has both eyes meaning he can double kamui snipe while staying intangible....


thats fanfic, and logically makes no sense at all 
obito needs to be in the real dimension in-order too form the void that forces the target into the other dimension thats essentially what kamui is 
if hes intangible and in the kamui dimension then the kamui just wont even connect 

manga has also stated that he needs to be solid to warp anything in or out of the dimension 
so this entire premise is flawed 



> kakashi while exhausted managed to kamui something as big as gedo mazos arm obito is boosted by both uchiha chakra and hashis chakra meaning he is easily capable of warping the gem that houses madara on ps head and with double kamuis speed madara isnt evading or tagging obito ever...worst still obito has hashi chakra enhancing his reserves unlike madara who will tire out using ps...


Sasuke with the choku tomoe managed to tag even Juubito with a structure thats inferior to PS
madaras speed and reflexes are much superior,, his precog is superior and his structure is superior,  so tagging an obito who is much slower isnt the hardest thing here 

madara can also see the chakra built up in obitos eyes when he attempts to warp, and iif hes without a  defense then a PS slash is used to intercept him and cut him in half


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2015)

Double Kamui warps EMS Madara with relative ease. Madara literally has nothing close to Kaguya's warp hole bone attack in speed (used against Naruto), which Kakashi warped away in reaction before it moved more than a meter from Kaguya's body out the warphole, meaning Obito will literally _never_ be hit by this incarnation of Madara. 

Rikudo chakra or not, it's not changing the speed of Double Kamui, which Madara doesn't have a hope in hell of avoiding at any point in this battle. The exact second Obito decides to warp him, he will literally completely vanish from that dimension before that second completes.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 19, 2015)

Can MS Obito even warp something as large as Perfect Susanoo?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Can MS Obito even warp something as large as Perfect Susanoo?


Why would he warp Perfect Susano? Madara is the target, at the top of the structure. 

Kamui can bypass visible chakra barriers, he simply creates the warp hole inside of the structure. Kamui is not fired in a linear path, it spawns at a designated ranged position. 

He actually cannot manifest it before he's warped if Obito chooses to immediately start with DK, Madara has to make seals to open it, and it doesn't manifest instantly.

The ridiculous talk about Kurama & PS combination attacks is comical. There is no possible way Madara is given time to summon that beast, manifest PS, combine them, and begin attacking before Obito warps him. He literally cannot manifest a single Jutsu before Double Kamui warps him, that's assuming Obito goes for it initially.


----------



## Kai (Feb 19, 2015)

Goes either way imo. It really only comes down to one or two things as there's a lot of extra powers in play. Kurama isn't making a huge difference from Susanoo against Obito's power. Madara has a much better chance with both of them separated. Susanoo does no favors for Obito, assuming he can bring it forth.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 19, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Why would he warp Perfect Susano? Madara is the target, at the top of the structure.



 Depends whether or not he can Kamui through it.



> Kamui can bypass visible chakra barriers, he simply creates the warp hole inside of the structure. Kamui is not fired in a linear path, it spawns at a designated ranged position.



 He cannot Kamui through Susanoo, same as how Kakashi was unable to Kamui through Madara's Gedodama.



> He actually cannot manifest it before he's warped if Obito chooses to immediately start with DK, Madara has to make seals to open it, and it doesn't manifest instantly.



 Okay, you definitely got me there.

 GG Madara.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 19, 2015)

Madara would lose because he can't stop kamui. He is not fast enough nor is his moves fast enough to catch obito between phasing and solidifying and more importantly he can't evade a kamui snipe. Madara got a lot of power but so did the juubi which was second away from being sniped until obito countered him with his own kamui hax. Madara's chakra construct size, range or defense don't even matter in front of kamui since obito can position himself anywhere with it.

The whole clone thing won't even really work here seeing as obito had to be tricked by a outside force he wasn't focusing on and here he has full knowledge and only madara and his moveset to deal with.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 20, 2015)

obito poses no actual threat to madara. he is just a glorified escape artist.

a double kamui warp can only be used on the person using it or someone within close proximity due to the right eye only possessing a short range kamui.

obito isnt warping faster than madara can react. the warp speed of a single eye kamui was slower than a truthseeker while double ms kamui was faster than a truthseeker.

the speed of a truthseeker isnt even remotely impressive considering these events.



obitos left eye is his only form of long range kamui, so im not seeing how he insta-warps anyone. he cant combine both eyes to make a "super fast long range kamui"

this was even seen with kakashi. even when he had both eyes, only the left eye showed the ability to use a long range kamui.




and no, this


*is not* a double long range kamui. thats a different power entirely. all he did was synchronize both kamui in order connect 2 dimensions. he cannot warp anyone using kamui like this considering that the portal created isnt drawing anyone into it. 

double ms obito still has a long range kamui and a short range kamui. synchronizing both eyes allow him to connect 2 separate dimensions. mindless wank wont change that.

madara destroys the gedo mazo without PS. gedo mazo doesnt even have the feats to destroy a V3 susano. judging by how badly it did against kcm naruto, kakashi, gai and gyuuki, V3 susano tears it to shreds with its blades. PS isnt necessary.


obito cant threaten madara. madara wins with low diff due to being overall superior in cqc.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 20, 2015)

> obito poses no actual threat to madara. he is just a glorified escape artist.


Obito is easily one of the most refined, skilled and talented ninja in the entire manga 



> a double kamui warp can only be used on the person using it or someone within close proximity due to the right eye only possessing a short range kamui.


That is not true at all. DMS Obito warped Kaguya's bone, which was fired at Kakashi and himself. On top of that, DMS Kakashi warped a bone fired from Kaguya while in free fall far away from her clearly at double the speed. A normal Kamui wouldn't even manifest before that attack hit Rikudo Mode Naruto, who was not capable of reacting to it with his own move set on several occasions, including that one. His clones were systematically annhiliated time and time again by her ranged bone attacks. A single RM Naruto clone would sense one-eyed Kamui a mile away and avoid it accordingly. 

Base Yang Naruto literally avoided Limbo (definitely faster than 1-MS Kamui) and hit Judara with an attack in close quarters with his speed, RM Naruto's clones couldn't avoid Kaguya's bones. In other words, 2-MS Kamui reacted to an attack (and warped) that RM Naruto's clones failed to on several occasions, two times. And your logic is EMS Madara is reacting, avoiding and/or outspeeding it with his attack?  



> obito isnt warping faster than madara can react. the warp speed of a single eye kamui was slower than a truthseeker while double ms kamui was faster than a truthseeker.


EMS Madara would have trouble reacting a single Kamui use, let alone two of them. While alive and in SM, Madara couldn't effectively counter Gaara's sand bullets with a Jutsu, he opted to literally attempt blocking them. He had access to V3 Susano at that point, along with his various Katon pool, but he failed to do anything in relaiation as the bullets moved toward him. 

Your logic is he's capable of reacting to Double Kamui, when while in SM he was incapable of reacting to Vacuum Sand Bullets and numerous CQC attacks from the bijuu? 

You're a whole box of fanboy, aren't you?


> the speed of a truthseeker isnt even remotely impressive considering these events.


The Truthseeker was Judara's chosen attack against two Kamui users and 8th Gated Gai who was bum rushing him in mid-air, whom he could not speed blitz. He was being torn to shit prior to firing them at Gai, with a look of complete fear and seriousness on his face. Why didn't he attempt a different attack (such as lightning)? Because the Truthseekers were his fastest attack at the time. 

The mere fact he chose them in that advanced form, several times, especially during moments of extreme duress and concern, means they were indeed one of his, if not his fastest attack. 



> obitos left eye is his only form of long range kamui, so im not seeing how he insta-warps anyone. he cant combine both eyes to make a "super fast long range kamui"


No, when they're combined, he can grab warp and range warp at double the speed. Nothing suggests otherwise. 



> this was even seen with kakashi. even when he had both eyes, only the left eye showed the ability to use a long range kamui.


Several times Kakashi warped himself in and out of the box dimension, an ability that transcends the concept of ranged Kamui. Once the eyes are combined, the user can go through objects, warp himself and warp others (ranged) at double the speed.  



> double ms obito still has a long range kamui and a short range kamui. synchronizing both eyes allow him to connect 2 separate dimensions. mindless wank wont change that.


Double MS Obito can utilize Kamui at twice the speed, period. Anything the Jutsu KAMUI is connected to in performance immediately becomes twice the speed of a one-eyed variant. 



> madara destroys the gedo mazo without PS. gedo mazo doesnt even have the feats to destroy a V3 susano. judging by how badly it did against kcm naruto, kakashi, gai and gyuuki, V3 susano tears it to shreds with its blades. PS isnt necessary.


Gedo Mazo apparently sustained form from a moon-sized Chibaku Tensei used by Hagoromo. It has one of the, if not the most impressive durability feature in the manga. 



> obito cant threaten madara. madara wins with low diff due to being overall superior in cqc.


Double Obito would troll EMS Madara in close quarters, he'd successfully pressure him with only one MS eye let alone two. 

The very moment Madara attempted to enter CQC, Obito would appear behind him via double Kamui warphole speed and stab him in the head with a Mokuton spear before he realized Obito wasn't in front of him anymore.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 20, 2015)

Rinnegan Obito is not fast enough to catch Madara in Kamui if they have a CQC fight. In fact, such a fight favors Madara, since he can escape Kamui, just like base Guy could, and wait until the moment when Obito is exhausted because of Kamui usage. Madara's chakra reserves are much superior, you know.

But if Gedo Mazo has Tailed Beasts, than Rinnegan Obito wins by using Gedo Mazo against Madara.

Double MS Obito with Rikudou power beats Madara.

But without Rikudou power, double MS Obito cant win. His long-ranged Kamui cant go through Susanoo, which Madara can use to exhauste Obito.

The main advantage due to which Madara can beat Obito is his far superior chakra reserves. His stamina is on another, higher level.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Rinnegan Obito is not fast enough to catch Madara in Kamui if they have a CQC fight. In fact, such a fight favors Madara, since he can escape Kamui, just like base Guy could, and wait until the moment when Obito is exhausted because of Kamui usage. Madara's chakra reserves are much superior, you know.
> 
> But if Gedo Mazo has Tailed Beasts, than Rinnegan Obito wins by using Gedo Mazo against Madara.
> 
> ...


Rinnegan Obito nearly warped KCM Naruto who had a bunshin feint and chakra arm blitz coming at him. Without Gai interrupting, he would have got him. EMS Madara is not faster than KCM Naruto in any regard. 

There is absolutely 0% chance EMS Madara is beating Rinnegan Obito in a CQC fight. 

Kamui can go through any visible surface as it spawns on location literally floating in space, it is not a linear firing technique that needs to bypass barriers in order to manifest at a desirable target. They can manifest it anywhere they please as long as there is an AOS. In other words, the warp hole is manifested inside the Susano and warps Madara out of it into the box dimension accordingly, because they can see inside the Susano where Madara is located.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 20, 2015)

> Rinnegan Obito nearly warped KCM Naruto who had a bunshin feint and chakra arm blitz against him.



Edo Madara blocked V2 Ei's punch point blank. And even his mokuton clones could tag V2 Ei because he needed to block clones Susanoo punch instead of dodging it. If his clones could do such a thing, imagine how fast is the original.

Also Edo Madara reacted to all of the Gokage without much of a problem, outran Jinton...

Outpased SM Naruto and Sai at once, without much of a problem, while being without his ayes...

Dodged Gaara's sand...

Fought on par with Hashirama, who could easily outrun Bijuu Dama and use Rashomon Gates against it...

He is very fast. Base Guy could dodge his Kamui in taijutsu. Madara can do the same, but even better and much longer, due to his stamina.



> There is absolutely 0% chance EMS Madara is beating Rinnegan Obito in a CQC fight.



Wrong.



> Kamui can go through any visible surface as it spawns on location literally floating in space, it is not a linear firing technique that needs to bypass barriers in order to manifest at a desirable target. They can manifest it anywhere they please as long as there is an AOS.



Obito could appear with his Kamui where he wanted to appear, as i remember. So maybe i was wrong and double MS Obito can bypass Susanoo.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 20, 2015)

madara has literally zero feats of avoiding double kamui...kakashi withone eye managed to warp someone on bm narutos speed tier so fast that mankegyo precog could not see it...he warped something as large as gedmazos arm mid summon thats crazy fast while exhausted..now double the warping speed...enhance that with uchiha and hashiramas chakra...not even juubidara could tag a nearly dead obito before he could go intangible so ems madara has no hope obito can warp around nearly on par with ftg due to double kamui...obito can even outlast madara due to hahiramas chakra..match starts obito can double kamui snipe before madara can react or put up sussano...madara puts up ps sussano obito warps ps head gem including madara with double kamui and avoids counterattacks easily with intangibility...madara summons kurama obito wrests control with senju dna,gedomazo and mankegyo combination ..


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 20, 2015)

Madara has EMS he genjutsu GG
Possible one of his MS abilities is tskuyomi 

We obviously know who has the stronger genjutsu

Madara will always win 

Obito has no way of beating madara once he uses susanoo


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Madara has EMS he genjutsu GG
> Possible one of his MS abilities is tskuyomi
> 
> We obviously know who has the stronger genjutsu
> ...



what in gods name what happened to u ice...genjutsu gg


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 20, 2015)

Yes genjutsu Gg
Do try to claim obito has the stronger eyes and you'll have everyone laughing 
Madara can obviously genjutsu obito 
Why wouldn't he be able to ??


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 20, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> That is not true at all. DMS Obito warped Kaguya's bone, which was fired at Kakashi and himself. On top of that, DMS Kakashi warped a bone fired from Kaguya while in free fall far away from her clearly at double the speed. A normal Kamui wouldn't even manifest before that attack hit Rikudo Mode Naruto, who was not capable of reacting to it with his own move set on several occasions, including that one. His clones were systematically annhiliated time and time again by her ranged bone attacks. A single RM Naruto clone would sense one-eyed Kamui a mile away and avoid it accordingly.
> 
> Base Yang Naruto literally avoided Limbo (definitely faster than 1-MS Kamui) and hit Judara with an attack in close quarters with his speed, RM Naruto's clones couldn't avoid Kaguya's bones. In other words, 2-MS Kamui reacted to an attack (and warped) that RM Naruto's clones failed to on several occasions, two times. And your logic is EMS Madara is reacting, avoiding and/or outspeeding it with his attack?


when were narutos clones failing to react to long range ash bones? kaguya ran up to all of them and stabbed them.


the ash bones have never been noted to be ridiculously fast in travel speed. the kamui that kakashi used to warp the ash bone is the same kamui thats been used in the manga since forever.


limbo is simply madaras clone. limbo have stats equal to the original. if limbos movement speed is faster than kamui, so was madaras.




> EMS Madara would have trouble reacting a single Kamui use, let alone two of them. While alive and in SM, Madara couldn't effectively counter Gaara's sand bullets with a Jutsu, he opted to literally attempt blocking them. He had access to V3 Susano at that point, along with his various Katon pool, but he failed to do anything in relaiation as the bullets moved toward him.
> 
> Your logic is he's capable of reacting to Double Kamui, when while in SM he was incapable of reacting to Vacuum Sand Bullets and numerous CQC attacks from the bijuu?


i cant tell if this is a serious argument. madara was in free fall and if he blocked the sand bullets, that means that he physically reacted to it, which wouldnt be necessary if he was using susano since it is activated with thought. 

he couldve used susano if he wanted to, but he simply did not.




> You're a whole box of fanboy, aren't you?
> The Truthseeker was Judara's chosen attack against two Kamui users and 8th Gated Gai who was bum rushing him in mid-air, whom he could not speed blitz. He was being torn to shit prior to firing them at Gai, with a look of complete fear and seriousness on his face. Why didn't he attempt a different attack (such as lightning)? Because the Truthseekers were his fastest attack at the time.
> 
> The mere fact he chose them in that advanced form, several times, especially during moments of extreme duress and concern, means they were indeed one of his, if not his fastest attack.


not only does this not disprove the panels i posted, it also does not prove that madaras truthseekers were his fastest move. 
truthseekers provided a defense against gais taijutsu that gai couldnt get through without outside help. thats reason enough to use them.



> No, when they're combined, he can grab warp and range warp at double the speed. Nothing suggests otherwise.
> 
> Several times Kakashi warped himself in and out of the box dimension, an ability that transcends the concept of ranged Kamui. Once the eyes are combined, the user can go through objects, warp himself and warp others (ranged) at double the speed.
> 
> Double MS Obito can utilize Kamui at twice the speed, period. Anything the Jutsu KAMUI is connected to in performance immediately becomes twice the speed of a one-eyed variant.


concession accepted. an ignored argument is a conceded one.
you are still saying this despite the manga showing kamui still being separated into 2 different powers. he can use both eyes simultaneously to do a few new tricks, but thats it.

this "double long range kamui" nonsense was already disproved. there wont be any more discussion on this point and moving on is the only option in this case.



> Gedo Mazo apparently sustained form from a moon-sized Chibaku Tensei used by Hagoromo. It has one of the, if not the most impressive durability feature in the manga.


and was going to be destroyed by naruto and bees bijudama which isnt moon level. it was knocked out by gyuuki and kcm narutos punch which isnt anywhere near moon level.

six paths CT is a prison, not a killing move, but it is possible for CT to kill. that however, is not its purpose.


> Double Obito would troll EMS Madara in close quarters, he'd successfully pressure him with only one MS eye let alone two.
> 
> The very moment Madara attempted to enter CQC, Obito would appear behind him via double Kamui warphole speed and stab him in the head with a Mokuton spear before he realized Obito wasn't in front of him anymore.


kamui doesnt make up for obito being blatantly inferior in every stat.
it doesnt matter if obito did warp right behind madara. obitos movement speed isnt enough to tag madara before he can counterattack.




obito will be warping at madara with a technique that has inferior travel speed to hiraishin and the speed of his actual movement is not enough to tag madara before he can react. 

obitos movements and attack speed are kakashi level yet you think that obito has any sort of chance at touching madara? and im the fanboy?

 obito warps behind madara, then madara easily reacts and kills obito. its just that simple.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Yes genjutsu Gg
> Do try to claim obito has the stronger eyes and you'll have everyone laughing
> Madara can obviously genjutsu obito
> Why wouldn't he be able to ??



madara has never displayed genjutsu on the level of tsukyomi and even that was beaten by sasukes 3 tomtoe sharingan,....obito is a uchiha with a mankegyo enhanced by hashiramas chakra how da hell did you come to the conclusion he can genjutsu obito...?


----------



## Arles Celes (Feb 20, 2015)

Madara at VotE was already capable of using Kage Bunshin.

And Kage Bunshins can be troublesome to deal for a Kamui user.

If Madara can do a multiple KB like he did with Mokuton bunshin then his chances of hitting Obito drastically increase.

If he got Kurama on top of that he can easily force Obito to stay intangible past the 5 minutes limit.

Obito was unable to warp Base Guy and I think VoTE Madara's taijutsu is at least on par with that. Sniping Kamui can be more troublesome but I do not see it as invincible. Kakashi didn't snipe neither Deva nor Asura Pain.

That said if Obito plays smart he may take some decent difficulty to be put down.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 20, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> madara has never displayed genjutsu on the level of tsukyomi and even that was beaten by sasukes 3 tomtoe sharingan,....obito is a uchiha with a mankegyo enhanced by hashiramas chakra how da hell did you come to the conclusion he can genjutsu obito...?



Madara controlled kyuubi as a pet 
And has EMS
Which is obviously above MS

Hilarious you think obito can compete with him in genjutsu. Despite madara being able to genjursu hashirama who broke ET control for the lolz 
Something itachi needed koto to do 

Obito controlling yagura is fun and games but obito has never been hyped for genjutsu 
You know who has ? Madara 

Also note KB laugh at close range kamui . Obito can only use long range or phase not both . 

PS kyuubi susanoo shooting BD which it can for 5 mins straight ensures obito demise


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Madara controlled kyuubi as a pet
> And has EMS
> Which is obviously above MS
> 
> ...



and obito controlled the kyuubi as a pet...
madara has not shown any high level genjutsu at all ...he was never hyped for  genjutsu like itachi for e.g has not shown a specialized genjutsu like tsukyomi...just because he has ems does not mean ms is helpless against it a full blood uchia can break tsukyomi with just tomtoe sharingan obito has both hashiramas chakra and ms...when did madara genjutsu hashirama? he couldnt utilize genjutsu effectively the whole fight...

why would  obito use shortrange kamui when he can kamui snipe with double speed somthing too fast for juubidara to intercept..kyuubi has never shown to launch bijudama for 5 straight minutes jesus...everytime he launches one there is a delay it is not a continuous jutsu...and you really think obito cant warp away before bijudama reaches him with double kamui which was so fast juubidara couldnt intercept?

what makes you think madar will even get the chance to summon kurama or ps when the match starts obito can kamui snipe with double kamui something madara sure as hell is not evading...kakashi with one eye managed to warp someone much faster then madara bm naruto so fast even mankegyo precog did not see it double kamui is twice as fast..and kb are dealt with by kamui sniping their head..not that madara utlizes kb...

this is ems madara stop placing him on some platter like he is juubidara..just because he is a top tier does not mean he is better at genjutsu then shisui faster and more reflexive then bsm naruto ,stronger then tsunade,more durable then sandaime...


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 20, 2015)

Onoki hyped his genjutsu
He is madara which is a clearly valid argument 
He genjutsu him 
He has the superior eyes 
And the superior chakra


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Onoki hyped his genjutsu
> He is madara which is a clearly valid argument
> He genjutsu him
> He has the superior eyes
> And the superior chakra



And kisame,danzo and ao hyped obito for controlling yagura...
He is madara a perfectly valid argument
a lesser sharingan in sasukes 3 tomtoe managed to break tsukyomi from ms a specialized hyped genjutsu from itachi someone massively praised for genjutsu just because sasuke has ems does not mean he can genjutsu gg itachi..
madara does not have superior chakra considering he is vote madara while obito has both uchiha chakra and hashiramas chakra/..


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 20, 2015)

Itachi let him break out 
And had zero intention of killing sasuke
Obito said that 

Sasuke in no way could have broken it if itachi didn't want him to 

Danzo and obito agreed their genjutsu levels are worlds appart

Btw madara has massively more chakra than obito I don't even see how that's debatable 

This is obito with just double MS no rikudo chakra


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Itachi let him break out
> And had zero intention of killing sasuke
> Obito said that
> 
> ...



Dont you think that his long-ranged Kamui can bypass Susanoo and warp Madara?


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Itachi let him break out
> And had zero intention of killing sasuke
> Obito said that
> 
> ...



Itachi did not have the intention of killing sasuke but he was not expecting sasuke to break his genjutsu and the backlash from sasuke breaking his genjutsu was severe..

itachi has much greater genjutsu skill yet the sharingans genjutsu defense lets a true blood uchiha break genjutsu from superior eyes and skill....and you just contradicted yourself so do you believe ems sasuke can genjutsu gg itachi?

obito has massive chakra reserves and constantly spams kamui no problem summoned gedomazo easily the same which emaciated nagato an uzumaki..and controlled 5 bijuu simultaneously while one was stated to take a massive toll on ones chakra...

obito has half of his body made of hashiramas dna so how you can claim madara has greater reserves is beyond me...this is not madara with hashi dna this is ems madara..


----------

