# Tsunade vs Mei



## Bonly (Oct 20, 2013)

Location: Destroyed Unraikyo
Distance:  25 meters.
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: The Itachi of summonings, The Queen of Solo, The Great Katsuyu-Sama :blindkatsuyu

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2013)

was not there a statement for Tsunade that she's the strongest woman? 

anyway, regardless of that, I think Tsunade will win more times than not. @.@


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## Lace (Oct 20, 2013)

Since the battle isn't CC I'd put my money on Mei because her abilities are more suited to mid-range or long-range combat.
Although it's tough to call. Tsunade is certainly capable of winning.


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## Kai (Oct 20, 2013)

Tsunade's Byakugo negates the damage of all of Mei's attacks, and it's just a matter of Tsunade closing the distance to land a single shot. Mei's most believable chance at winning would be to push Tsunade back through force with her colossal Suiryuudans and gradually wear her out, but Tsunade will just bounce back and chase her down with even greater resolve.

Mei doesn't have the force behind her attacks to play keep away from Tsunade nor does she have enough lethality or any metaphysical attacks to topple Tsunade's regeneration.

Tsunade mid-high difficulty.


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## -JT- (Oct 20, 2013)

Can the Byakugo negate the effects of Tsunade's skin melting off or molten lava cooling and trapping her body?


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## Veracity (Oct 20, 2013)

-JT- said:


> Can the Byakugo negate the effects of Tsunade's skin melting off or molten lava cooling and trapping her body?



Yes ,it kinda does regenerate all destroyed cells and all Tsunade has to so is dash through the mist(or lava) and merely tap Mei once and the battle is over. If she had Katsuyu this would be a stomp but as it is, it's mid- high difficulty. 

Tsunade has a lot more speed feats then Mei and has been confirmed many times to be the most powerful Female ninja whereas Mei has never even been mentioned.


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## Bonly (Oct 20, 2013)

-JT- said:


> Can the Byakugo negate the effects of Tsunade's skin melting off or molten lava cooling and trapping her body?



Depends on what you mean. Byakugo can heal the damage done by Futton or Yoton but the Lava or Acid mist will still be on her so she'll just heal the damage just for the damage to kick right back in.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 20, 2013)

Tsunade tanks Mei's attacks with Genesis Rebirth/Byakugo and then once she gets her hands on Mei, the fans win.


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 20, 2013)

I don't recall Mei having any stamina issues, so she should win 6/10 times.

I think Tsunade has to run into a direct hit eventually, which would kill her after Mei follows-up.
But if she waits too long to close in, the acid wll liquefy her...

very close match, but the water source gives Mei the clear edge


.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 20, 2013)

You should change the location to a kiddie pool filled with mud.


Regardless, Tsunade is the strongest Kunoichi in Naruto, so she should certainly be stronger than Mei.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 21, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> You should change the location to a kiddie pool filled with mud.



I prefer oil, that way it's not so covering.


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## Ersa (Oct 21, 2013)

I feel Mei is a bad match-up for Tsunade. Although I'd peg Tsunade as the stronger ninja. Speed wise there's no notable difference I feel, Tsunade may just be faster but not enough to matter. If Mei can bring this fight into mid-long range by using her town-level Suitons to keep Tsunade at bay, she can then hide using Hidden mist to hide before bombarding Tsunade with Acid Mist/Lava style. Acid Mist and Lava will really take a lot of effort to regen, if it reduces Susanoo's ribs to paste then Tsunade who's human will likely be turned into a puddle of blood. Her stamina will burn out quicker than Mei who shouldn't have anywhere near her stamina but isn't constantly regenerating her limbs and flesh.

Tsunade's only chance is to catch Mei in her AOE but if Mei plays smart and uses weaker Suiton and Hidden Mist to steer well clear she should remain alive.

Mei, high difficulty.


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## Aqua (Oct 21, 2013)

Tsunade high difficulty.
Mainly because of her regeneration. She has the power to keep her at bay, but for how long? Tsunade isn't sitting around doing nothing.


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## Ersa (Oct 21, 2013)

I think people are forgetting (despite the fact Mei is most likely one of the weakest Kage) she has very, very potent offenses. Her Lava/Acid Mist was able to partially melt Madara and Sasuke's Susanoo ribcages. Sasuke's tanked Liger Bomb with only a shattered rib and Madara's took the full force of Tsunade plus an amped up Ei to break his Susanoo. In terms of offense Mei's attacks shouldn't be too far behind Tsunade's punch and Ei's Lightened Lightning Chop. If the mist or lava lands, Tsunade isn't going to be looking good. Byakogou or not, she doesn't have a ribcage Susanoo to protect her unlike Sasuke and Madara. And given Tsunade's speed isn't vastly greater, she has a very good chance of landing them.

And this isn't even taking into account what happens if Mei decides to jump into the lake and use that to power up her Suiton which were already capable of stopping Madara's Katon which have enough AOE to cover a small town.


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## Nimander (Oct 21, 2013)

Never post in the BD, but saw the thread title and couldn't help but insert my two cents. Which is namely this:

Mei would wax that ass. Nuff said.

Now leave me to enjoy the awesome mental image that last line of mine spawned....


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## Ennoia (Oct 21, 2013)

I honestly cant see how Lava is countered so given Tsunade's feats and fighting style I can see her just being spit on by lava until she goes down while being thrown back by Suitons. Should Mei gain any more feats such as being able to function with a thick Hidden Mist this becomes a stomp because blinding Tsunade makes her threat level go down by far.


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## tracytracy22 (Oct 21, 2013)

With Katsuyu restricted, it could go either way. If Tsunade can avoid Mei's Lava or Acid mist, she could outlast her, but Mei has quite a bit of stamina herself given her fighting style.

If Mei is able to land a water dragon, I dont see why she cant quickly follow it up with her Lava. Her lava (given the location) is probably the most dangerous move in her arsenal. People seem to forget that she was able to damage Madara's susanoo clone with it (no other kage except Onoki was able to damage those clones).



The arm is badly melted. The fact that she was able to land her lava on that clone means it has quite a bit range! And probably the most dangerous aspect of the lava is that is sticks on to whatever is comes into contact with. So it will continuously burn Tsunade. I dont know how helpful her byakugo would be in this situation. 

Tough choice!


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## trance (Oct 21, 2013)

Mei is not really stronger than Tsunade but her abilities are a bad matchup as Kyokan pointed out. I highly doubt Tsunade can survive a lava bath and (depending on the level of intensity) Acid Mist can counter Tsunade's regeneration and can equal Madara in attack speed. Tsunade has decent speed feats and her strength will be put pressure on Mei.

I'll say Tsunade takes it extreme difficulty.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 21, 2013)

We have Tsunade canonically outpacing Mei's Ninjutsu speed.

Tsunade's got enough legit durability for the legendary _Kusanagi no Tsurugi's_ slash to do significantly less damage to her than Sasuke's non-flowed katana did to Danzō, only suffer minor injuries from _Tensō no Jutsu's_ lightspeed travel that had previously turned everybody other than the Third Raikage into ribbons and paste, and withstand Madara's point-blank _Yasaka Magatama_ blasting her into boulders as hard as Chōji's fist did Asuma without the big dent in her stomach.

Obviously _Futton: Kōmu no Jutsu_ will still hurt, but it won't immediately turn her into a pile of goop either (she should be better off than White Zetsu), and sustaining it requires active Chakra input as evidenced by Mei's disappearing soon after Sasuke broke through the wall instead of lingering forever and Zabuza's vanishing as soon as he was defeated.

_Byakugō no Jutsu's_ Chakra cost is proportional to the amount of regeneration required and considering Tsunade's durability as well as her Chakra reserves being large enough to sustain her villagers twice over or repeatedly play Chakra battery for her peers (Mei included) on top of extensive use of her regeneration, I'm certain the Hokage can survive the mist more than long enough to kick Mei's head out of existence. _Yōton: Yōkai no Jutsu_ is more or less in the same boat if it ever manages to hit Tsunade given that it didn't cool and stick to either _Susano'o_ or Gyuki.


The Slugging Princess should win regardless of the summoning restriction. The amount of difficulty with which she does so is relative to how much Chakra she exerts trying to reach Mei through repeated even more gigantic than normal _Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu_ pushing her backwards.




Elia said:


> was not there a statement for Tsunade that she's the strongest woman?





I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Regardless, Tsunade is the strongest Kunoichi in Naruto, so she should certainly be stronger than Mei.



Out of fairness, Tsunade is renowned as the 'Queen of Slugs and Elixers', or 'Slug Princess' and as such chances are those statements take Tsunade's ability to summon into account. So I'm not sure using those to say "Slug Princess with no slugs > any other Kunoichi" is the way to go.

But at the same time nobody knew she could regenerate either; for this thread in particular a more solid answer concerning who is generally the better fighter would be their respective performances against their sets of _Susano'o_ clones where Tsunade did not bring out any slugs.



tracytracy22 said:


> The arm is badly melted. The fact that she was able to land her lava on that clone means it has quite a bit range! And probably the most dangerous aspect of the lava is that is sticks on to whatever is comes into contact with.



. . .How can you claim the lava sticks to whatever it comes into contact with whilst providing a scan showing a partially melted clone _without lava on it_?

Tsunade will not just lay down in the lava taking her time like Madara did in the initial stages of the Five Kage fight.


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## tracytracy22 (Oct 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> . . .How can you claim the lava sticks to whatever it comes into contact with whilst providing a scan showing a partially melted clone _without lava on it_?.



Well it did stick to the walls at the 5 kage summit place when she blocked the exit. But skin is different to wood/stone. Either way, it will be a tough fight. I cant make up my mind. For me it could go either way!


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## LostSelf (Oct 21, 2013)

The lava almost melted something that was tanking Tsunade's bloodlusted punches without any cracks on it (I don't know why it was acid mist). Said lava hitting Tsunade, and she's not regenerating that damage like a breeze, while she moves like nothing happened to her. It will hurt her (a lot), it will hinder her (a lot), and it will give Mei time to attack again.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 21, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> The lava almost melted something that was tanking Tsunade's bloodlusted punches without any cracks on it (I don't know why it was acid mist).



For starters blunt force = / = corrosion.

And "almost melted"? It barely melted off the equivalent of the epidermis.

Is there any reason to believe Tsunade didn't crack into that _Susano'o_, LostSelf? Because last I checked we can't see its back to say she did nothing to it.

And how do we know Mei even used the lava to do what she did there and/or that it didn't take prolonged exposure to achieve if it was in fact the result of lava? It doesn't seem very likely considering that lava did jack all to the same ribcage _Susano'o_ Tsunade treated like glass earlier until it decided to take a bath.


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## LostSelf (Oct 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> For starters blunt force = / = corrosion.



I'm pretty sure that melting Susano'o would be way harder than melting Tsunade. Having a more solid body surely helps a lot. If we follow that, a body will be as easy to melt as an ice cream.



> And "almost melted"? It barely melted off the equivalent of the epidermis.



Yeah, i used the wrong word. But it was melting it.



> Is there any reason to believe Tsunade didn't crack into that _Susano'o_, LostSelf? Because last I checked we can't see its back to say she did nothing to it.



All the Susano'os were shown to be fine and not affected by their punches. And this is assuming she only hit their back, something not likely unless we assume she only managed to hit them once.



> And how do we know Mei even used the lava to do what she did there and/or that it didn't take prolonged exposure to achieve if it was in fact the result of lava? It doesn't seem very likely considering that lava did jack all to the same ribcage _Susano'o_ Tsunade treated like glass earlier until it decided to take a bath.



Correct me if i'm wrong, i don't remember Mei using lava on the Susano'os before. And Tsunade threated nothing like glass. It took more than one punch from her and a combined assault from Mei, her and Ei to destroy a part of Madara's ribcage Susano'o.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 21, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> I'm pretty sure that melting Susano'o would be way harder than melting Tsunade. Having a more solid body surely helps a lot. If we follow that, a body will be as easier to melt as an ice cream.



That wasn't my point. I'm sure it would be as well.

My entire post was me taking issue with what was basically you saying "it took Tsunade's punch like nothing yet was melted, so."

It doesn't take into account the different methodology with which damage is being delivered by those attacks. Hardness and heat resistance _don't_ necessarily go hand in hand.



> All the Susano'os were shown to be fine and not affected by their punches. And this is assuming she only hit their back, something not likely unless we assume she only managed to hit them once.



You mean all of the _Susano'os_ that happen to possess the ability to reform over time, right? With us not knowing exactly when they were hit?

For all we know she put cracks in all of them and they reformed by that point.



> Correct me if i'm wrong, i don't remember Mei using lava on the Susano'os before. And Tsunade threated nothing like glass. It took more than one punch from her and a combined assault from Mei, her and Ei to destroy a part of Madara's ribcage Susano'o.



In the initial stages of the Five Kage vs. Madara fight, Mei opened with Yōton blasts as Ay followed up with physical strikes _(1)_. Don't see any melting yet, do you? We don't see it until she practically bathes _Susano'o_ in the lava _(2)_ long enough for people to talk for a bit and go after Mū, and then talk some more before Madara finally stands up _(3)_ with the ribs finally showing signs of melting.

In the last panel you can see that Tsunade's initial punch put a hole the size of her fist in Susano'o with cracks extending across its surface as it was propelled backwards, _(4)_. Her kick busted it open despite the previous cracks having been restored at that point _(5)_, _(6)_. And I hope you aren't implying that Ay and Ohnoki's attack weakened the side of Susano'o that Tsunade struck, because that isn't he case just like slightly fracturing one side of an eggshell doesn't make the opposite side any softer.

So yeah. . .prolonged exposure, something Tsunade treated like glass. . .


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## tracytracy22 (Oct 21, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong, i don't remember Mei using lava on the Susano'os before. And Tsunade threated nothing like glass. It took more than one punch from her and a combined assault from Mei, her and Ei to destroy a part of Madara's ribcage Susano'o.



I think he/she is referring to the beginning of the fight, where she along with Ei holding off Madara until she finished healing Onoki and Garaa. But its true, it didn't do anything to the ribcage.

Also, its only logical to assume that Mei's corrosive syrup was what melted the arm. She cant use her boil release in an area where her fellow kage are fighting without running the risk of hurting them. Also, when you look at the arm, its looks like little blobs of the syrup are flying off. Also, look closely at the bottom right panel - there is smoke coming off the wood, which is the same effect that the corrosive syrup had when Mei used her yoton yokai on madara.


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## Veracity (Oct 21, 2013)

You have to take into consideration that her acid will be "watered" down based in the location. A wide spread are allows winds to blow away part of her acid, and allows Tsunade to completely evade the attack if she wanted. Even if she got hit by the technique, simply getting out of range from a less potent acid most would ensure Tsunade lives quite fine.

And like Ive seen on SI, Tsunade could literally just dive underwater to survive the tech if it comes to that, Mei doesn't have a single Suiton to even get close to killing Tsunade.


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## tracytracy22 (Oct 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> So yeah. . .prolonged exposure, something Tsunade treated like glass. . .



But its not going to take prolonged exposure to be able to melt Tsunade.

Far out, is it just me or does everyone else get this giant add blocking the top half of the screen and blocking most of the text when replying to someone?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 21, 2013)

tracytracy22 said:


> She cant use her boil release in an area where her fellow kage are fighting without running the risk of hurting them. Also, when you look at the arm, its looks like little blobs of the syrup are flying off. Also, look closely at the bottom right panel - there is smoke coming off the wood, which is the same effect that the corrosive syrup had when Mei used her yoton yokai on madara.



I would think Mei could control how wide of a mist she makes, and it isn't as though the Kage were each shoulder to shoulder, they had some space between them.

I don't think those are lava globs so much as blobs of liquified _Susano'o_ 'skin'.



Likes boss said:


> You have to take into consideration that her acid will be "watered" down based in the location. A wide spread are allows winds to blow away part of her acid, and allows Tsunade to completely evade the attack if she wanted. Even if she got hit by the technique, simply getting out of range from a less potent acid most would ensure Tsunade lives quite fine.
> 
> And like Ive seen on SI, Tsunade could literally just dive underwater to survive the tech if it comes to that, Mei doesn't have a single Suiton to even get close to killing Tsunade.



Mei's ability to increase the acidity as she sees fit should be bale to make up for a decrease in concentration.

I don't think diving underwater against a master of Suitons is a good idea, either.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

The _last_ place Tsunade wants to be is underwater, where Mei can basically toy with her. The Mizukage can already spawn rather large water formations from her mouth alone. In a body of water, she'll drown Tsunade with no difficulty, or bombard her constantly with basically the entire lake. Tsunade is best staying on land, where she controls the terrain (for the most part).


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## tracytracy22 (Oct 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I would think Mei could control how wide of a mist she makes, and it isn't as though the Kage were each shoulder to shoulder, they had some space between them.
> 
> I don't think those are lava globs so much as blobs of liquified _Susano'o_ 'skin'.
> 
> ...



They could be liquefied susanoo globs. We're both speculating - its just a matter of personal interpretation. Plus, I see no mist in that panel. Btw you very objective and unbiased. You don't often come across people like that on these forums!


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## kaminogan (Oct 21, 2013)

hmm,

mei has the advantage with acid mist and lava,

but her attacks are slow and easily dodgeable,

it comes down to a battle of attrition,

unless tsunade can somehow pull a pain vs naruto on mei and hit her while she is resting/recovering,


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 21, 2013)

Tsunade, at this range, can just byako plow through her ninjutsu assault and belt her like the susano did, and then regenerate the damage.

So Tsunade wins.  If the distance is long, and she doesn't have the immortal Katsuya to scout for her, then Mei wins basically always.


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## kaminogan (Oct 21, 2013)

well lava is sort of tsunades weakness,

and tsunade usually doesn't resort to that at the beginning of battle,


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

Basically wolverine vs Pheonix in The last stand.


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## kaminogan (Oct 21, 2013)

^ lol,

only if wolverine had a time limit and the phoenix could run out of energy,


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## LostSelf (Oct 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> That wasn't my point. I'm sure it would be as well.
> 
> My entire post was me taking issue with what was basically you saying "it took Tsunade's punch like nothing yet was melted, so."
> 
> It doesn't take into account the different methodology with which damage is being delivered by those attacks. Hardness and heat resistance _don't_ necessarily go hand in hand.



I wasn't following heat resistance. Just that Susano'o is much harder than Tsunade and was being melted. I do think that harder, the more difficult to melt it will be.



> You mean all of the _Susano'os_ that happen to possess the ability to reform over time, right? With us not knowing exactly when they were hit?



And how do you prove she cracked the more advanced version of it?



> For all we know she put cracks in all of them and they reformed by that point.



Even if we never saw her hitting them, this statement would not hold any strenght because you are not proving it. But we saw her hitting one. And we see no crack(Even thought it would be hard to notice from here). She did nothing to them, not strong enough to make them reform. Or at least, it wasn't shown.



> In the initial stages of the Five Kage vs. Madara fight, Mei opened with Yōton blasts as Ay followed up with physical strikes _(1)_. Don't see any melting yet, do you? We don't see it until she practically bathes _Susano'o_ in the lava _(2)_ long enough for people to talk for a bit and go after Mū, and then talk some more before Madara finally stands up _(3)_ with the ribs finally showing signs of melting.



You know you read the manga from right to left? Madara's Susano'o is shown shrinking with the first shot of lava, not when it was bathed in lava again. Yeah, it's shown to be melting. with the first bath. Susano'o was shown shrinking before they talked about Mu. I don't see what are you talking about here. 



> In the last panel you can see that Tsunade's initial punch put a hole the size of her fist in Susano'o with cracks extending across its surface as it was propelled backwards, _(4)_. Her kick busted it open despite the previous cracks having been restored at that point _(5)_, _(6)_. And I hope you aren't implying that Ay and Ohnoki's attack weakened the side of Susano'o that Tsunade struck, because that isn't he case just like slightly fracturing one side of an eggshell doesn't make the opposite side any softer.



No, i'm not implying that. But i didn't notice Madara reformed his Susano'o.



> So yeah. . .prolonged exposure, something Tsunade treated like glass. . .



Nothing to say here. Not to mention that Tsunade cracking ribcage Susano'o doesn't mean she should've cracked the more advanced ones with no evidence at all.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 22, 2013)

tracytracy22 said:


> But its not going to take prolonged exposure to be able to melt Tsunade.



Maybe not based solely on durability, but I think melting her through perpetual regeneration is going to take prolonged exposure. More extensive exposure than what Tsunade would actually be subject to  given how it seems to slide off of things when they move enough.



tracytracy22 said:


> They could be liquefied susanoo globs. We're both speculating - its just a matter of personal interpretation. Plus, I see no mist in that panel.



It is true that the mist is absent, but _Susano'o was_ in motion, so it could have gotten past it there.



> Btw you very objective and unbiased. You don't often come across people like that on these forums!



:33



LostSelf said:


> And how do you prove she cracked the more advanced version of it?





> Even if we never saw her hitting them, this statement would not hold any strenght because you are not proving it. But we saw her hitting one. And we see no crack(Even thought it would be hard to notice from here). She did nothing to them, not strong enough to make them reform. Or at least, it wasn't shown.



_I_ don't need to prove that Tsunade cracked a more advanced version. _You_ were the one who made the instigating claim that Tsunade didn't put any cracks into _Susano'o_ and I asked you how you knew that when we weren't at an angle to determine such a thing.

It's up to you to back up your claim that an attack that previously did not fare as well against _Susano'o_ suddenly managed to fare better. The only possible 'evidence' is that we don't see cracks, but you have to consider that we wouldn't have seen them from our angle even if they were actually there.

I have not actually claimed that Tsunade _did_ crack into _Susano'o_, but in the name of consistency Tsunade's blunt force strikes have already shown to fare better than Mei's lava blasts against it. So if a wave of that lava damaged _Susano'o_, Tsunade was likely to have done _something_ to her clones as well when she struck them.

However, that inevitably brings us back to the question of _how_ Mei achieved what she did, which we don't actually know, and if it involved another lava bath I don't see her getting Tsunade to take one anytime soon.



> You know you read the manga from right to left? Madara's Susano'o is shown shrinking with the first shot of lava, not when it was bathed in lava again. Yeah, it's shown to be melting. with the first bath. Susano'o was shown shrinking before they talked about Mu. I don't see what are you talking about here.



It was _sinking_, not _shrinking_.



> Nothing to say here. Not to mention that Tsunade cracking ribcage Susano'o doesn't mean she should've cracked the more advanced ones with no evidence at all.



The point is that you made the claim that Mei could melt something Tsunade couldn't crack, but we can't confirm that Tsunade couldn't crack it, and we would need to in order to make that claim considering that earlier Tsunade's punch fared better.

If Mei's lava blast did actually melt it as you are claiming that in and of itself would be evidence that Tsunade cracked her clone's defense.


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## LostSelf (Oct 22, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> _I_ don't need to prove that Tsunade cracked a more advanced version. _You_ were the one who made the instigating claim that Tsunade didn't put any cracks into _Susano'o_ and I asked you how you knew that when we weren't at an angle to determine such a thing.
> 
> It's up to you to back up your claim that an attack that previously did not fare as well against _Susano'o_ suddenly managed to fare better. The only possible 'evidence' is that we don't see cracks, but you have to consider that we wouldn't have seen them from our angle even if they were actually there.
> 
> I have not actually claimed that Tsunade _did_ crack into _Susano'o_, but in the name of consistency Tsunade's blunt force strikes have already shown to fare better than Mei's lava blasts against it. So if a wave of that lava damaged _Susano'o_, Tsunade was likely to have done _something_ to her clones as well when she struck them.



"*For all we know she put cracks in all of them and they reformed*". It looks like claiming to me. And it's not the only evidence either, just because she put cracks on a lower version of Susano'o doesn't mean she should've had put one of those just because Mei's lava was melting it. Especially because you clearly said that hardness has not much to do with corrossion,



> However, that inevitably brings us back to the question of _how_ Mei achieved what she did, which we don't actually know, and if it involved another lava bath I don't see her getting Tsunade to take one anytime soon.



True (But like i said, i always thought what she used was acid mist and not the lava). But if Susano'o reforms, i don't think Mei could've shot several baths of lava to it for this to be notable because of more than one shot. And the clones were not stationary at that point.

And if it hits Tsunade, someone who is less durable than Madara's Susano'o and much smaller, i don't see her dodging the second blast effortessly. Especially if Mei had enough skills to hit her the first time. She is not inmune to pain.



> It was _sinking_, not _shrinking_.



It was being melted from below. Madara is in the floor here, two panels before it was shown getting smaller. The lava didn't got between Susano'o and the floor. And the lava was not deep enough to sink Susano'o that much,



> The point is that you made the claim that Mei could melt something Tsunade couldn't crack, but we can't confirm that Tsunade couldn't crack it, and we would need to in order to make that claim considering that earlier Tsunade's punch fared better.
> 
> If Mei's lava blast did actually melt it as you are claiming that in and of itself would be evidence that Tsunade cracked her clone's defense.



Then you are backing up on your hardness =/= corrosion argument?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 22, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> "*For all we know she put cracks in all of them and they reformed*". It looks like claiming to me.



It's more like a "give me a reason to believe what you just said instead of 'insert x possibility here.'"



> And it's not the only evidence either, just because she put cracks on a lower version of Susano'o doesn't mean she should've had put one of those just because Mei's lava was melting it. Especially because you clearly said that hardness has not much to do with corrossion,



Hardness and heat resistance don't always correlate, but that would only be relevant were two different subjects being compared. It isn't as simple as "Susano'o tanked this blunt force but got melted by this, so 'x different object' is definitely being melted badly", which is what you were doing initially. It basically implies that someone or something would need to be more than durable enough to tank Tsunade's strikes in order to survive Mei's lava.

In this case, however, the _same substance_ is in question each time.



> True (But like i said, i always thought what she used was acid mist and not the lava). But if Susano'o reforms, i don't think Mei could've shot several baths of lava to it for this to be notable because of more than one shot. And the clones were not stationary at that point.



Well you said lava. . .

If Mei could somehow manage to trip _Susano'o_ up or something she could probably keep it covered up for a bit, but again it isn't like I can confirm anything.



> She is not inmune to pain.



Tsunade didn't even know what pain was until the village got destroyed. 





> It was being melted from below. Madara is in the floor here, two panels before it was shown getting smaller. The lava didn't got between Susano'o and the floor. And the lava was not deep enough to sink Susano'o that much,



I don't understand what you're saying. I mean, you do realize Mei spat the lava _before_ Madara activated _Susano'o_, right?

The lava was pooling up in the bed of trees, and Ay's chop simply pushed the ribcage further into the lava.



> Then you are backing up on your hardness =/= corrosion argument?



No.


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## The World (Oct 22, 2013)

Tsunade will just brute force her way through anything Mei throws at her and one shot


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## LostSelf (Oct 22, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> It's more like a "give me a reason to believe what you just said instead of 'insert x possibility here.'"



I interpreted diferent. But ok. The reason would be that Susano'o, in this case, was stronger and more durable (though this could've been avoided if i remembered or saw that Madara regenerated the crack from the first punch).



> Hardness and heat resistance don't always correlate, but that would only be relevant were two different subjects being compared. It isn't as simple as "Susano'o tanked this blunt force but got melted by this, so 'x different object' is definitely being melted badly", which is what you were doing initially. It basically implies that someone or something would need to be more than durable enough to tank Tsunade's strikes in order to survive Mei's lava.
> 
> In this case, however, the _same substance_ is in question each time.



Fair enough here.



> Well you said lava. . .



Yeah, i saw the bad wording in my first post. It was "I don't know why but i thought it was acid mist". I should've missed the word editing the post like i always do.



> If Mei could somehow manage to trip _Susano'o_ up or something she could probably keep it covered up for a bit, but again it isn't like I can confirm anything.



Well, the punch doesn't look to have lava on it. That's why i doubt it was too much exposed to the jutsu. Mostly because the Susano'os were being pressuring at the time. Enough to pressure someone as fast as Ei. But i won't confirm either.



> Tsunade didn't even know what pain was until the village got destroyed.



She thought she knew Pain when she lost Dan and her brother (?). But Pain showed her how wrong she was.



> I don't understand what you're saying. I mean, you do realize Mei spat the lava _before_ Madara activated _Susano'o_, right?
> 
> The lava was pooling up in the bed of trees, and Ay's chop simply pushed the ribcage further into the lava.



I ignored Mokuton, because the lava should've melted it quick, but i didn't (i just don't see it melting that much). Even in page 9, the mokuton is like nothing, so i figured Kishimoto just ignored it. (Or if we follow it featwise, Mei's lava is shit). But i do think that Kishi just ignored it.


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## Ersa (Oct 22, 2013)

I love how Tsunade has ribcage Susanoo durability.

Please tell me she can tank Liger Bomb now 

If the lava or mist hits her she'll have a tonne of trouble regenerating from it, cause as much as her fans want to wank her; she doesn't have feats to suggest she can walk through something that can melt Madara's ribcage, regeneration or not. Losing limbs to the lava and mist will drain her stamina like hell.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Oct 22, 2013)

Nobody freaking gave Tsunade ribcage _Susano'o_ durability. 

I suggest the person with the Mei set go ahead and quiet down trying to rather hypocritically antagonize pro-Tsunade posts. Especially falling back on a rather sorry 'doesn't have the feats' stance when the lava's only feat is _taking forever and a half to even begin_ melting ribcage _Susano'o_, and taking forever to melt _fucking trees_ of all things.

Additionally, not a single lava technique has actually clung to what it came into contact with, only caked up around it, which doesn't matter when the opposition is in motion.

So 'feats' are not even on Mei's side. Tsunade is not going to have to worry about losing limbs to the crap and stamina will not be an issue.


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## LostSelf (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm inclining more to Mei melting Susano'o with acid mist instead of Lava. She hit Sasuke with the latter and his ribcage Susano'o doesn't look affected [1]. If that didn't do a thing to Sasuke's weaker version, i doubt it would've done something to Madara's stronger one in both, doujutsu and version.

Now, Acid Mist really messed up Sasuke.

However, just because of this doesn't mean Tsunade will tank it or is remotely comparable. Sasuke's ribcage tanked a Liger Bomb. So _Yoton: Yokai no Jutsu_ should damage her (But that mokuton thing...).


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## Ersa (Oct 22, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Nobody freaking gave Tsunade ribcage _Susano'o_ durability.
> 
> I suggest the person with the Mei set go ahead and quiet down trying to rather hypocritically antagonize pro-Tsunade posts. Especially falling back on a rather sorry 'doesn't have the feats' stance when the lava's only feat is _taking forever and a half to even begin_ melting ribcage _Susano'o_, and taking forever to melt _fucking trees_ of all things.
> 
> ...


Mhm, resort to attacking my set. I even have Tsunade higher on my tier list but Mei is simply a bad matchup for her. 

Yes, people are giving her that durability. They're claiming that Tsunade's regeneration will make it so the lava/corrosive mist will melt her slowly which gives her the chance to close in and use her massive AOE punches to win more or less. Takes time to melt the ribcage? Yeah so what? That said ribcage tanked a Liger Bomb which I might add would ruin Tsunade's day if she ever took one. Liger Bomb is comparable (actually eye-balling it might be stronger ) than anything Tsunade has shown, it's alot stronger than her Part I punch and she hasn't shown much greater strength in Part II despite getting stronger overall.  

Tsunade is not a Susanoo ribcage, she's durable but she's flesh and bone. If lava hits, she's being melted down to a puddle. It took her time to regenerate from Madara's weakest Yasaka; nothing suggests to me she's tanking lava.

Are you really using the trees argument? It's about as intelligent as using samurai armour to downplay Amaterasu. Aka. ridiculous amounts of fanwanking. Authors make mistakes. High-ends are more useful for seeing how powerful an author thinks a technique is. 

Also I don't see how Tsunade survives Hidden Mist + Corrosive Acid or how she wins if Mei decides to take the fight into the lake below which is easily done if she knocks Tsunade into the lake with one of her massive Suitons. I love how people think Tsunade can walk through one of those as well; Madara was shot up into the air (Susanoo and all) by her Water Dragon. Somehow Tsunade is going to punch through that?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 22, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Yes, people are giving her that durability.



No.



> They're claiming that Tsunade's regeneration will make it so the lava/corrosive mist will melt her slowly



Because it will. The lava is not as hot as the mist. The mist took quite a while to melt the blob with a face that was a White Zetsu spore.

Durable person with regeneration added on will be melting slowly. Thank you common sense.



> Takes time to melt the ribcage? Yeah so what?



Tsunade will not chillax in the lava like Madara did.

She won't be touching the thing for more than a moment, and has ultimate do the otherwise impossible regeneration on her side.



> That said ribcage tanked a Liger Bomb



Slamming something into the ground in an attempt to crush it is _non-comparable_ to heating it up.



> which I might add would ruin Tsunade's day if she ever took one.



And I'm failing to see why that isn't easily survived.



> Liger Bomb is comparable (actually eye-balling it might be stronger ) than anything Tsunade has shown, it's alot stronger than her Part I punch and she hasn't shown much greater strength in Part II despite getting stronger overall.



Er, _no_ it is absolutely _not_ stronger.

Don't act like your IQ is lower than your shoe size (it might be but idk). Ay's chop broke through Sasuke's Susano'o no problem whatsoever, said chop did nothing to Madara's Susano'o, Tsunade smashed the hell out of it.

If Part 1 Tsunade < Ay, and Part 2 Tsunade >>> Ay, then Part 2 Tsunade >>> Part 1 Tsunade. Common sense wise an in-shape person >>> their 20 years rusty substance abusing self.



> Tsunade is not a Susanoo ribcage, she's durable but she's flesh and bone. If lava hits, she's being melted down to a puddle.



If lava hits she says ow as the lava falls off a second later. What part of _does not fucking stick_ do you not understand?



> It took her time to regenerate from Madara's weakest Yasaka; nothing suggests to me she's tanking lava.



"Weakest" Yasaka sent her flying into rock as hard as Asuma being hit by Choji. We only see the sword wound healing.

Yasaka is not heat, either.



> Are you really using the trees argument?



Yes and there is no ridiculous fanwanking about it. The lava's feats place it below the acid mist which took its time melting a fodder Zetsu spore. The high end of taking forever and a half to barely do something is not 'roast durable characters with ease' level. Hence the Jutsu being too 'pitiful' to even absorb. If anything the tree thing is only telling of what Kishi thinks.



> Also I don't see how Tsunade survives Hidden Mist + Corrosive Acid or how she wins if Mei decides to take the fight into the lake below which is easily done if she knocks Tsunade into the lake with one of her massive Suitons.



The waiting game works since the mist requires active input of Chakra to maintain.

The Suiton being big doesn't equate to easily knocking away one of the physically strongest characters in the manga.



> Madara was shot up into the air (Susanoo and all) by her Water Dragon.



_Susano'o_ has no grip. Ribs don't grip things.


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## Ersa (Oct 22, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was melting Sasuke through Susanoo, Tsunade is more durable than Sasuke yes. She has regeneration yes but it is not instant regeneration and she doesn't have a Susanoo to cover for her. If you're going to try insult my IQ; I think it's ridiculous you think mist/lava will not hinder Tsunade much. Use your brain and stop underestimating the amount of protection Susanoo grants its user. 

Maybe she won't chillax because it's already melting her limbs off? If it melts through Susanoo, how in the blue hell is a human walking through it? Since you're resorting to attacks; once again just a typical Tsunade fanboy underrating Susanoo. And no just incase you were wondering, Susanoo is probably more resistant to heat than Tsunade.

Point taken, I never said Ei was stronger; just it looked bigger. That wasn't really my point anyway, the fact that Mei's attack damaged Susanoo to that extent suggests to me that it's in the same ballpark as Tsunade's punches/Ei's strikes. Heat or not, I'm talking damage. 

Pitiful to absorb? Except Madara says it's an extremely potent offense later on. Also Mokuton is capable of stopping island/city leveling strikes from Perfect Susanoo infused Kyuubi. The high-end is damaging Madara's ribcage, something Tsunade is also capable of doing. At the very least the damage of Mei's lava is comparable to Tsunade's strikes.

Suiton does it's damage through it's force.  Tsunade has never walked through something like that. Let's use a real world example, can a weightlifter walk through a firefighter hose? Tsunade is the weight-lifter and Mei's the one firing a town level Suiton at her. Use some common sense man


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## Synn (Oct 22, 2013)

Tsunade can easily cover the distance and smash Mei. The only way Mizukage can escape this is by using _Kirigakure no Jutsu_ right off the bat and blind Tsunade with the fog.

*I'd say it can go either way, but I see Tsunade winning more times than not.*


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## Jad (Oct 22, 2013)

Synn said:


> Tsunade can easily cover the distance and smash Mei.



Do you know how fast I would get negative rep if I said that in a Gai vs. Mei thread?

Anyways, it's tough because Tsunade's regeneration won't be doing much against the _Fuuton Mist_. She'd have to escape it quick-smart otherwise she is going to get knocked out by it's effect and damages. There should be a small window of opportunity to do so though. The problem is engaging the Mizukage once the _Futton Mist_ surrounds the area. I mean will this match turn into a cat and mouse game until the Mizukage can't keep the _Fuuton jutsu_ alive, eventually dieing down giving Tsunade the chance to strike? Or will it just end in Tsunade running at the Mizukage, forgetting her own bodily limits, and effectively taking too long?

At any rate, Tsunade can't sit in the _Futton Mist_ and expect her regeneration to keep her alive. Mitosis cells will die off before being able to mutate into new cells, and they can't exactly mutate in an area of the body (her entire body) if all it will do is walk into the mist. Katsuya would have probably made a difference and given Tsunade the win, unless I'm missing something.​


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## Synn (Oct 23, 2013)

Jad said:


> Anyways, it's tough because Tsunade's regeneration won't be doing much against the _Fuuton Mist_. She'd have to escape it quick-smart otherwise she is going to get knocked out by it's effect and damages.



Despite its corrosive powers, Tsunade can withstand the mist for a while. That leaves enough time to settle this in CQC.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 23, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> It was melting Sasuke through Susanoo, Tsunade is more durable than Sasuke yes. She has regeneration yes but it is not instant regeneration and she doesn't have a Susanoo to cover for her. If you're going to try insult my IQ; I think it's ridiculous you think mist/lava will not hinder Tsunade much. Use your brain and stop underestimating the amount of protection Susanoo grants its user.



Mei didn't instantly melt through anything, though, so it doesn't need to be instant. There is no inwards protection given by _Susano'o_- once the mist breached it the first time anad got Sasuke's arm he may as well have been unprotected until Zetsu restored his Chakra and he re-formed _Susano'o_.



> Maybe she won't chillax because it's already melting her limbs off? If it melts through Susanoo, how in the blue hell is a human walking through it? Since you're resorting to attacks; once again just a typical Tsunade fanboy underrating Susanoo. And no just incase you were wondering, Susanoo is probably more resistant to heat than Tsunade.



Er, thank you for confirming that you don't actually read before you post, because I already said Tsunade was easier to melt than _Susano'o_.

The lava _begins to_ melt through _Susano'o_ when _Susano'o_ _sits in the lava_. Simply splashing _Susano'o_ never did any damage to it, and simply splashing Tsunade is all the lava will be doing because _it does not stick_. Tsunade will be scalded, not immediately melted down before the lava slides off of her.

Once again, the mist did much better against _Susano'o_, and it took a moment to melt Zetsu. I'm giving Tsunade's durability more credit than a Zetsu that was already for the most part a squishy blob. The damage being shot at light speed would produce is analogous to this type of damage, and _Tensō no Jutsu_ would have affected her entire body on the inside and outside, and Tsunade said she still had a huge amount of Chakra left over after regenerating that. She would have even more left over here where she only needs to heal what's exposed to air, and she's got ridiculous enough amounts to do keep it going.



> Point taken, I never said Ei was stronger; just it looked bigger. That wasn't really my point anyway, the fact that Mei's attack damaged Susanoo to that extent suggests to me that it's in the same ballpark as Tsunade's punches/Ei's strikes.



No it isn't. Tsunade and Ay's strikes do what they do immediately, meanwhile Mei's lava has to remain in contact with Susano'o long enough for two conversations before it even begins melting through it. The damage has to build up to do anything notable, because the amount of energy being released at any one time in the lava is far lower than the amount released in Tsunade and Ay's strikes on impact.



> Pitiful to absorb? Except Madara says it's an extremely potent offense later on.



Madara said it was impressive _when combined with Ay's Shunshin_. He was referring to the offensive of the Five Kage as a collective force just like he referred to the collective defensive with Gaara and Ohnoki, not any single Kage's efforts.



> Suiton does it's damage through it's force.  Tsunade has never walked through something like that. Let's use a real world example, can a weightlifter walk through a firefighter hose? Tsunade is the weight-lifter and Mei's the one firing a town level Suiton at her.



I know how Suiton works, Mei's Suitons have pushed away things that have no grip. Sasuke's _higher leveled Susano'o_ had to actually dig into the ground with its hands to not get sucked into Baku while Danzō had no problem running around. A weightlifter in real life isn't nearly as strong as Tsunade and can't grip the ground even better with Chakra directed to their feet.

And if it didn't seem to be absent I'd ask you to you use your own common sense to realize that Mei does not have freaking town-level Suitons. The Katon she countered was nowhere near the size of a small town, by any stretch.


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## LostSelf (Oct 23, 2013)

The last tactic might as well not work, Pain outright said this would not work (Though Shinra Tensei is massively superior to Suiton in force). But if Tsunade does that, Mei can force her to jump and follow up with another burst of lava (And i do think that lava can damage her a good deal, despite not doing a thing to Mokuton). 

And by her own strenght i don't think she can withstand the force of Suiton.


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## Ersa (Oct 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Mei didn't instantly melt through anything, though, so it doesn't need to be instant. There is no inwards protection given by _Susano'o_- once the mist breached it the first time anad got Sasuke's arm he may as well have been unprotected until Zetsu restored his Chakra and he re-formed _Susano'o_.
> 
> *Er, thank you for confirming that you don't actually read before you post, because I already said Tsunade was easier to melt than Susano'o.*


It was melting the outside of the ribs quite quickly, yes glad we agree.

Ah thank you for proving my point. If Tsunade is easier to melt than Susanoo given she's a human and Susanoo was melted by Mei's acid then Tsunade is getting melted too and faster as well. Not to mention, getting melted alive kinda hurts. Even Tsunade felt pain from those swords bissecting her so she's not going to easily toss the lava off as you suggest.



> The lava _begins to_ melt through _Susano'o_ when _Susano'o_ _sits in the lava_. Simply splashing _Susano'o_ never did any damage to it, and simply splashing Tsunade is all the lava will be doing because _it does not stick_. Tsunade will be scalded, not immediately melted down before the lava slides off of her.


You're saying Tsunade has similar durability to ribcage Susanoo? I'll grant you she can tank the same attacks through Byakogou but she is still human. Unlike Susanoo who can tank the lava without any drawbacks she doesn't want to go anywhere near the lava. And you really think it was merely scald her? More like scald and take an arm off in the process. 

Tsunade isn't a chakra construct, the lava will melt through her because you know it's kinda what lava does? And melting Susanoo is enough for me to think it was melt Tsunade. Can she regenerate and throw it off? Yeah but it will do quite a bit of damage and waste stamina healing and regenerating any limbs she loses.



> Once again, the mist did much better against _Susano'o_, and it took a moment to melt Zetsu. I'm giving Tsunade's durability more credit than a Zetsu that was already for the most part a squishy blob. The damage being shot at light speed would produce is analogous to this type of damage, and _Tensō no Jutsu_ would have affected her entire body on the inside and outside, and Tsunade said she still had a huge amount of Chakra left over after regenerating that. She would have even more left over here where she only needs to heal what's exposed to air, and she's got ridiculous enough amounts to do keep it going.


Don't know man Zetsu did go head-to-head with a KCM Naruto clone whose probably stronger than Tsunade 

Jokes aside, Susanoo ribcage is alot more durable than Zetsu. And if Mei puts up Hidden Mist and launches acid mist into that, even if it takes a while it'll weaken Tsunade and give Mei time to jump into the lake to prepare some massive Suiton. 



> No it isn't. Tsunade and Ay's strikes do what they do immediately, meanwhile Mei's lava has to remain in contact with Susano'o long enough for two conversations before it even begins melting through it. The damage has to build up to do anything notable, because the amount of energy being released at any one time in the lava is far lower than the amount released in Tsunade and Ay's strikes on impact.


When Madara came out of the lava, his Susanoo ribs were already partially melted. There's not a big timeframe there, neither was Sasuke's ribcage. Also do I have to keep stressing that Tsunade is not as resistant to heat as a chakra construct. She'll melt faster, I hate to be rude but stop overestimating her durability. She's got high durability but the major component is regeneration, things like swords, Katon still hurt her. A high-level Kekkai Genkai used by a fellow Kage will certainly hurt her badly.


> Madara said it was impressive _when combined with Ay's Shunshin_. He was referring to the offensive of the Five Kage as a collective force just like he referred to the collective defensive with Gaara and Ohnoki, not any single Kage's efforts.


I ask? Who did more damage in that bout?

Mei or Ei?

I'll give you a hint; it's the one that actually damaged his Susanoo.

He praised both, both Ei and Mei have good offenses. I love how you drop the Mokuton point too. 


> I know how Suiton works, Mei's Suitons have pushed away things that have no grip. Sasuke's _higher leveled Susano'o_ had to actually dig into the ground with its hands to not get sucked into Baku while Danzō had no problem running around. A weightlifter in real life isn't nearly as strong as Tsunade and can't grip the ground even better with Chakra directed to their feet.
> 
> And if it didn't seem to be absent I'd ask you to you use your own common sense to realize that Mei does not have freaking town-level Suitons. The Katon she countered was nowhere near the size of a small town, by any stretch.


If Tsunade is stronger than a weight-lifter, you do realize Mei's Suiton is stronger than a hose yeah? And Susanoo has better grip than Tsunade sending chakra to her feet. 

> Implying Baku affects Danzo 

Tell me more about how CT affects Nagato, c'mon you're better than this.

Actually she does considering she equalled Madara's Katons on almost every occasion. The first Katon he used against fodders was indeed town level; 5-6 fodders blocked that. And if you seriously want to argue that 6 fodders > Mei then I'll stop debating here.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 23, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> It was melting the outside of the ribs quite quickly, yes glad we agree.
> 
> Ah thank you for proving my point. If Tsunade is easier to melt than Susanoo given she's a human and Susanoo was melted by Mei's acid then Tsunade is getting melted too and faster as well. Not to mention, getting melted alive kinda hurts. Even Tsunade felt pain from those swords bissecting her so she's not going to easily toss the lava off as you suggest.



But we don't agree; it was a somewhat extensive process.

Yet being impaled by swords almost wide enough to result in bisection didn't hinder her in knocking those clones on their asses. I personally think that was fatigue rather than pain, but whatever. Being completely run through, especially twice over, would be more excruciating than a scalding just as it is more deadly.



> You're saying Tsunade has similar durability to ribcage Susanoo? I'll grant you she can tank the same attacks through Byakogou but she is still human. Unlike Susanoo who can tank the lava without any drawbacks she doesn't want to go anywhere near the lava. And you really think it was merely scald her? More like scald and take an arm off in the process.
> 
> Tsunade isn't a chakra construct, the lava will melt through her because you know it's kinda what lava does? And melting Susanoo is enough for me to think it was melt Tsunade. Can she regenerate and throw it off?



I'm not saying Tsunade has similar durability to ribcage or any form of _Susano'o_, and she doesn't need it.

The lava will splash her, and a mere splash never once achieved diddly squat against _Susano'o_ other than sliding off before signs of melting.  She needn't "regenerate and throw it off" because it will _have already hastily slipped off_ on its own as the lava has done with everything else. She will merely be scalded, there will be no loss of limbs.



> Don't know man Zetsu did go head-to-head with a KCM Naruto clone whose probably stronger than Tsunade



_Black_ Zetsu with a solid body has nothing to do with blobby White Zetsu spores. 



> Jokes aside, Susanoo ribcage is alot more durable than Zetsu.



And like Zetsu and Sasuke, it took its sweet time melting.



> When Madara came out of the lava, his Susanoo ribs were already partially melted. There's not a big timeframe there, neither was Sasuke's ribcage.



When he came out, which was a while after he went under. The timeframe is much larger than the mere splashes Tsunade could possibly be hit with here, the ones insignificant to damage Sasuke's weaker _Susano'o_ that he was barely able to maintain.



> Also do I have to keep stressing that Tsunade is not as resistant to heat as a chakra construct.



Sooner or later you are going to go back and realize that I'm not freaking claiming she is.



> I ask? Who did more damage in that bout?
> 
> Mei or Ei?
> 
> ...



Both as Ay pushed Madara into Mei's lava in order to assist in completely submerging _Susano'o_ and letting it take a freaking bath while the fodder spoke about Madara's collateral damage capacity and going after before actually pursuing Kabuto's possessed Edo, Tsunade to answer Naruto's questions, Gaara to have his little moment of silence, and Ohnoki to answer Naruto again. And yet _Susano'o_ had only just begun to melt.

He praised them as having an impressive singular offense, get that 's' out of there.

I drop the Mokuton point because it's irrelevant enough for me to not waste my time on. It isn't as if I care that _larger Mokuton variants_ can stop larger attacks _that aren't heat_. Madara's Mokuton is the kind that could have branches obliterated by _COR_ which _Susano'o_ tanked, and have all branches obliterated by multiple _CORs_.



> If Tsunade is stronger than a weight-lifter, you do realize Mei's Suiton is stronger than a hose yeah? And Susanoo has better grip than Tsunade sending chakra to her feet.



I doubt the disparity is proportionate.

_Susano'o_ has no grip. Madara's grip doesn't exceed Tsunade's either. Even if _Susano'o_ had its hands its grip wouldn't exceed Tsunade's, she is physically far superior.



> > Implying Baku affects Danzo



> Implying Danzō is somehow immune to suction just because its his summon, or acting as if Baku was selectively targeting things when we saw that it was sucking in _everything in the vicinity_ and not just Sasuke.



> Tell me more about how CT affects Nagato, c'mon you're better than this.



_CT_ is not a summon, it is Nagato's Chakra. Baku is an independent entity who was merely called upon by Danzō.

I'm 100% certain that Jiraiya, Naruto, Minato, Tsunade, and Sakura are still prone to _ Teppōdama_ and _Zesshi Nensan_ like anyone else is.



> Actually she does considering she equalled Madara's Katons on almost every occasion. The first Katon he used against fodders was indeed town level; 5-6 fodders blocked that. And if you seriously want to argue that 6 fodders > Mei then I'll stop debating here.



Almost every occasion was a single time.

You just need to eyeball the page to see that none of the Katons Madara used in the Five Kage battle or against the fodder even begin to approach the size of a town. They were no more than a few times larger than ribcage _Susano'o_. He did not ever make them as large as the one he utilized after the emergence of the Ten Tails.


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## Ersa (Oct 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> But we don't agree; it was a somewhat extensive process.
> 
> Yet being impaled by swords almost wide enough to result in bisection didn't hinder her in knocking those clones on their asses. I personally think that was fatigue rather than pain, but whatever. Being completely run through, especially twice over, would be more excruciating than a scalding just as it is more deadly.


It was pain, she yelled out and caught Ei's attention. Not really, being burnt alive is far worse than being stabbed twice. Being doused in magma is also pretty bad 




> I'm not saying Tsunade has similar durability to ribcage or any form of _Susano'o_, and she doesn't need it.
> 
> The lava will splash her, and a mere splash never once achieved diddly squat against _Susano'o_ other than sliding off before signs of melting.  She needn't "regenerate and throw it off" because it will _have already hastily slipped off_ on its own as the lava has done with everything else. She will merely be scalded, there will be no loss of limbs.


Because Susanoo is more resistant to heat than Tsunade? Why am I repeating myself again and again. It will slide off her but not without burning, taking bone and skin along with it. Prove to me that she can simply tank it and get off with "scalds". I've offered that Susanoo gets melted and Susanoo is better at tanking heat attacks than Tsunade. You've offered me nothing but you believe it melts Susanoo slowly and Tsunade is equal with Susanoo (cause that's what little scalds would imply). 




> _Black_ Zetsu with a solid body has nothing to do with blobby White Zetsu spores.


Joke man, I know.



> And like Zetsu and Sasuke, it took its sweet time melting.


I'm taking lava than mist, if Mei can trap Tsunade in her mist at least it'll force her  to waste chakra regenerating. And Tsunade doesn't have the precious seconds Susanoo would grant her; her skin would be peeling off nigh instantly and she'd have to activate Sozo Saisei or Byakogou. In that time Mei can simply increase the PH of the acid, attack with lava or use the water below to attack.



> When he came out, which was a while after he went under. The timeframe is much larger than the mere splashes Tsunade could possibly be hit with here, the ones insignificant to damage Sasuke's weaker _Susano'o_ that he was barely able to maintain.


He was doused in it for a bit; Madara's ribcage is damn durable however. Don't even compare it to Tsunade. It's in a different league, for one Tsunade can't tank her own full power punch. 



> Sooner or later you are going to go back and realize that I'm not freaking claiming she is.


No, you are.

You think lava will merely give her scalds, nothing implies that. It'd give her scalds if she was as durable as Susanoo. She's not.



> Both as Ay pushed Madara into Mei's lava in order to assist in completely submerging _Susano'o_ and letting it take a freaking bath while the fodder spoke about Madara's collateral damage capacity and going after before actually pursuing Kabuto's possessed Edo, Tsunade to answer Naruto's questions, Gaara to have his little moment of silence, and Ohnoki to answer Naruto again. And yet _Susano'o_ had only just begun to melt.


Pein managed to think a few dozen lines of dialogue before a second had passed in the Pein Arc. Also he managed to dodge a FRS which crossed the CT crater (8km+ or so) before a second had passed. Timeframes are too hard to measure in a manga, all we can assume is that the attacks hit Madara and he came back with some damage.



> He praised them as having an impressive singular offense, get that 's' out of there.


Yes, which Mei was a part of. And she was the one who damaged his Susanoo. Thank you.



> I drop the Mokuton point because it's irrelevant enough for me to not waste my time on. It isn't as if I care that _larger Mokuton variants_ can stop larger attacks _that aren't heat_. Madara's Mokuton is the kind that could have branches obliterated by _COR_ which _Susano'o_ tanked, and have all branches obliterated by multiple _CORs_.


You do realize Hashirama's base Mokuton tanked a TBB in it's own hand right? COR is said to able to hollow out mountains by the DB, it destroying Mokuton does not imply Mokuton is weak at all. And do you really think Kishi is paying attention to the lava on the trees?



> I doubt the disparity is proportionate.


And why not? A Kage level firing a Suiton at another Kage level. You seriously think Kishi would draw Tsunade storming through Mei's Suiton then punching her daylights out. 



> _Susano'o_ has no grip. Madara's grip doesn't exceed Tsunade's either. Even if _Susano'o_ had its hands its grip wouldn't exceed Tsunade's, she is physically far superior.


Itachi's Susanoo was not sucked into CT, they have grip. Sasuke's just anchored itself for extra. Physical prowess =/= Chakra control. The only stopping Tsunade being launched into the air is sending chakra to the feet. Physical power means nothing then.




> > Implying Danzō is somehow immune to suction just because its his summon, or acting as if Baku was selectively targeting things when we saw that it was sucking in _everything in the vicinity_ and not just Sasuke.
> 
> _CT_ is not a summon, it is Nagato's Chakra. Baku is an independent entity who was merely called upon by Danzō.
> 
> I'm 100% certain that Jiraiya, Naruto, Minato, Tsunade, and Sakura are still prone to _ Teppōdama_ and _Zesshi Nensan_ like anyone else is.


>Implying Danzo has better grip than an anchored Susanoo. They should be pretty much the same. Naruto wasn't getting sucked into CT, nor was Itachi's Susanoo.  Danzo didn't truly enter the AOE of Baku until he fired his Futon as well iirc



> Almost every occasion was a single time.
> 
> You just need to eyeball the page to see that none of the Katons Madara used in the Five Kage battle or against the fodder even begin to approach the size of a town. They were no more than a few times larger than ribcage _Susano'o_. He did not ever make them as large as the one he utilized after the emergence of the Ten Tails.


Dear god.

May I remind you that your beloved Tsunade said they needed Mei for Madara's Katon. Off-panel fight? Mayhaps 


Town-level in DC, not AOE.

Not to mention Madara's Katon would've roasted Choji if not for the cloak by his own admission and he survived the Gedo Mazo roar which was a multi-block level attack. You do realize Mei is also capable of using Katon and Doton to weaken Tsunade as well as hide? Being a Kage I'm sure standard Katon and Doton is her arsenal given her chakra natures.

Could you also address my point of if Mei decides to jump down into the Unraikyo Lake? Because the speed difference isn't enough for Tsunade to stop her; or she can simply fire off a Suiton or even Katon as a distraction before jumping down. Can Tsunade walk through amped up Suitons?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 24, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> It was pain, she yelled out and caught Ei's attention. Not really, being burnt alive is far worse than being stabbed twice. Being doused in magma is also pretty bad



She caught Ay's attention with her battle cry. She didn't yell out when she pulled out the swords, she coughed up blood, and Ay only saw that because he had just been _talking to her_. Regardless of pain tolerance, when you get injured the blood has to gush out through something.



> Prove to me that she can simply tank it and get off with "scalds". I've offered that Susanoo gets melted and Susanoo is better at tanking heat attacks than Tsunade. You've offered me nothing but you believe it melts Susanoo slowly and Tsunade is equal with Susanoo (cause that's what little scalds would imply).



You've offered up that _Susano'o_, when subject to extensive direct exposure to the lava, can _begin_ to melt.

_Susano'o_ is better at tanking heat attacks than Tsunade, but Tsunade is only going to be splashed, when _Susano'o_ only got splashed (which is what would happen here) _nothing happened to it_.

So yes it does melt _Susano'o_ slowly and no I'm not saying I believe Tsunade is equal to _Susano'o_, I'm saying _there is no need for her to be_.



> I'm taking lava than mist, if Mei can trap Tsunade in her mist at least it'll force her  to waste chakra regenerating. And Tsunade doesn't have the precious seconds Susanoo would grant her; her skin would be peeling off nigh instantly and she'd have to activate Sozo Saisei or Byakogou. In that time Mei can simply increase the PH of the acid, attack with lava or use the water below to attack.



Being less durable than _Susano'o_ doesn't equate to immediate liquefaction. _Susano'o_ grants more than mere seconds even after the acidity has been increased; Tsunade will have more of those precious seconds than a Zetsu spore or newly exposed Sasuke, especially with _Byakugō no Jutsu_ fueled by Chakra levels sufficient to heal thousands simultaneously across Konoha twice over before being depleted. The Hokage has more than enough time to nail Mei.



> He was doused in it for a bit; Madara's ribcage is damn durable however. Don't even compare it to Tsunade. It's in a different league, for one Tsunade can't tank her own full power punch.



_Susano'o_ couldn't tank it either, hence it broke. 

Splash did nothing to Madara's _Susano'o_ and similarly did nothing to Sasuke's significantly weaker _Susano'o_. Tsunade does not have to be in _Susano'o's_ league of durability for limbs to stay attached after a splash.



> No, you are.
> 
> You think lava will merely give her scalds, nothing implies that. It'd give her scalds if she was as durable as Susanoo. She's not.



She doesn't need to be as durable as _Susano'o_ to only get scalds from a *splash that did nothing* to _Susano'o_ in the first place.

If Tsunade were as durable as _Susano'o_ she would only get scalds from _prolonged exposure_ to the lava, and I'm _not saying_ that she would get away with mere scalds _from prolonged exposure_. She doesn't need to be able to as the lava will not be in contact with her for nearly as long comparatively.



> Pein managed to think a few dozen lines of dialogue before a second had passed in the Pein Arc. Also he managed to dodge a FRS which crossed the CT crater (8km+ or so) before a second had passed. Timeframes are too hard to measure in a manga, all we can assume is that the attacks hit Madara and he came back with some damage.



For starters Pein never thought a "few dozen" or even just a dozen lines of dialogue in less than a second.

Additionally, thinking processes are far faster than actual spoken sentences. People think that fast in real life, they don't talk that fast.



> You do realize Hashirama's base Mokuton tanked a TBB in it's own hand right? COR is said to able to hollow out mountains by the DB, it destroying Mokuton does not imply Mokuton is weak at all. And do you really think Kishi is paying attention to the lava on the trees?



Hashirama's _Mokujin no Jutsu_ even in base is a whole lot larger than the tree trunks Madara's _Jukai Kōtan_, which I'd imagine has to do with Madara being new to his abilities and simply trying to "test them out".

Obvious hyperbole is hyperbole, and the standalone fact that it destroyed Mokuton was not my point. The point was that it was sufficient to completely grind away the branches _whilst being incapable of doing the same to_ _Susano'o_, which you are claiming Mei's lava melts without considering how long it took to melt it.



> And why not? A Kage level firing a Suiton at another Kage level. You seriously think Kishi would draw Tsunade storming through Mei's Suiton then punching her daylights out.



Both being classified as Kage level doesn't lead to an equivalent increase in the disparity of their primary attributes over real world examples, especially considering just how broad the "Kage level" range is. Tsunade's gotten far more emphasis on her strength than Mei has her Suitons and I can guarantee you that Tsunade could do much more than match six fodder physically.

I _could_ see Kishi doing it, but I was picturing Tsunade staying rooted in place as opposed to hurtling backwards more than anything.



> Itachi's Susanoo was not sucked into CT, they have grip. Sasuke's just anchored itself for extra. Physical prowess =/= Chakra control. The only stopping Tsunade being launched into the air is sending chakra to the feet. Physical power means nothing then.



CT renders grip irrelevant considering that anything it could possibly have gripped would have been sucked in _right alongside it_. Was _Susano'o_ supposed to be sucked off of Itachi faster than he could throw _Yasaka Magatama_ or faster than the very rock Itachi was standing on?

Sasuke's anchored itself because Sasuke would have been sucked in otherwise.

Advanced physical prowess enhances grip; Chakra control, which Tsunade supposedly stands at the pinnacle of, provides _further enhancement_. The physical factor does not just suddenly disappear, it is only supplemented by the secondary factor.



> >Implying Danzo has better grip than an anchored Susanoo. They should be pretty much the same. Naruto wasn't getting sucked into CT, nor was Itachi's Susanoo.  Danzo didn't truly enter the AOE of Baku until he fired his Futon as well iirc



I don't need to imply that considering that anchored _Susano'o_ was able to remain steady.

The suction effect can be seen across almost the entirety of the bridge.



> May I remind you that your beloved Tsunade said they needed Mei for Madara's Katon. Off-panel fight? Mayhaps



Yes, and? Tsunade's words mean she countered it more than once why?



> Town-level in DC, not AOE.
> 
> Not to mention Madara's Katon would've roasted Choji if not for the cloak by his own admission and he survived the Gedo Mazo roar which was a multi-block level attack. You do realize Mei is also capable of using Katon and Doton to weaken Tsunade as well as hide? Being a Kage I'm sure standard Katon and Doton is her arsenal given her chakra natures.



I'm pretty sure even the OBD acknowledges using calcs in-verse is borderline retarded. That's a prime example of why considering that the calc is a cloud feat and neglects that _Amaterasu_ was a key contributor to those clouds in the first place. Nevermind the advantage the Five Great Changes in Nature affords Mei throwing even more of a wrench into that claim.

It was giant Chōji that survived GM's roar, not human sized Chōji who admitted he would have been roasted. And while I could get on board with Mei using other elements, exactly what standard Katon or Doton is going to do anything against Tsunade? You want Mei to hide underground against someone who makes the ground their bitch with a finger?



> Could you also address my point of if Mei decides to jump down into the Unraikyo Lake? Because the speed difference isn't enough for Tsunade to stop her; or she can simply fire off a Suiton or even Katon as a distraction before jumping down. Can Tsunade walk through amped up Suitons?



Mei has zero direct movement feats so how do you even know what the speed difference is? And how far away from the water's surface do they begin anyway? Mei only has Ninjutsu execution feats. Tsunade's _Shunshin_ was quick enough to intercept Madara's fireball flurry faster than the Suiton would leave Mei's mouth after her seal. 

Actually . . . Suiton if anything should be more 'solid' than those fireballs. Tsunade smacks it to the side just like she smacked away the stronger version of your loltown-level Katon.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 24, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I feel Mei is a bad match-up for Tsunade. Although I'd peg Tsunade as the stronger ninja. Speed wise there's no notable difference I feel, Tsunade may just be faster but not enough to matter.



I disagree. Granted Tsunade isn't fast enough to blitz Mei, since her reaction speed is pretty high. However Tsunade's speed, coupled with her evasive ability, makes hitting her with ninjutsu very difficult.



> f Mei can bring this fight into mid-long range by using her town-level Suitons to keep Tsunade at bay, she can then hide using Hidden mist to hide before bombarding Tsunade with Acid Mist/Lava style.



I question if Mei would be capable of doing that. Tsunade has jumped huge distances before at alarmingly quick paces, so as big as Mei suitons are I don't think they could delay Tsunade for long. Tsunade has Katsuyu for Mei to deal with as well - potentially thousands of slugs that can act as effective diversions while Tsunade gets close. Hidden mist is dangerous though it blinds Mei as well, so she has to be cautious.



> Acid Mist and Lava will really take a lot of effort to regen, if it reduces Susanoo's ribs to paste then Tsunade who's human will likely be turned into a puddle of blood. Her stamina will burn out quicker than Mei who shouldn't have anywhere near her stamina but isn't constantly regenerating her limbs and flesh.



Only if she spends prolonged periods of time encased in them. I don't think Tsunade will be hit by Youton, but acid mist will burn her when she approaches Mei. Tsunade's stamina is dependant on how much chakra she has stored inside her seal, though with only a few weeks of chakra she could regenerate from numerous critical hits from Madara, as well as pump chakra into her team-mates. Running into Mei's Futton for a short period of time and finishing her off in CQC is feasible without Tsunade's energy reserves running dry.​​


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Oct 24, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade, Katsuyu is banned.


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## 2Broken (Oct 24, 2013)

Unless Tsunade has some abilities we don't know about yet (which is possible) there is no way Tsunade can beat Mei without Katsuya. Sure Tsunade can regenerate, but she is not immortal/invincible. She can still be killed by conventional means, it is just takes a lot more bang to do it than your average shinobi.

Mei has Hidden Mist, Acid Mist, Lava and Giant Suiton. I am sure Tsunade can shrug off the Suiton for the most part, but lava and acid give her nightmares. Stack Hidden Mist on top of that and what you have is a Tsunade who cannot find Mei running around in acid trying to punch her, while Mei blasts her from a distance with Lava.

There will be no CQC, unless you believe Tsunade to be multiple tiers over Mei in speed, an idea which I don't believe has any evidence to support it. Mei just seems to be quite underestimated, don't know why seeing that she is a Kage with two Kekkai Genkai and probably the second best Suiton feats in the series.


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## Ersa (Oct 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> She caught Ay's attention with her battle cry. She didn't yell out when she pulled out the swords, she coughed up blood, and Ay only saw that because he had just been _talking to her_. Regardless of pain tolerance, when you get injured the blood has to gush out through something.


But you would agree getting scalded would still hurt a lot yes? Which should slow Tsunade down to the point where Mei can escape down into the lake below.



> You've offered up that _Susano'o_, when subject to extensive direct exposure to the lava, can _begin_ to melt.
> 
> _Susano'o_ is better at tanking heat attacks than Tsunade, but Tsunade is only going to be splashed, when _Susano'o_ only got splashed (which is what would happen here) _nothing happened to it_.
> 
> So yes it does melt _Susano'o_ slowly and no I'm not saying I believe Tsunade is equal to _Susano'o_, I'm saying _there is no need for her to be_.


Tsunade needs to be able to have at least similar heat resistance to Susanoo in my opinion, in order to merely get off with scalds. Susanoo gets off with little damage from splashes because it's a chakra construct, Tsunade isn't therefore she'll take a lot more damage. Tsunade has better endurance than durability in my opinion, swords and kunais still hurt her however she can tank them all day long. Therefore I think it's logical to assume a powerful Kekkai Genkai is capable of at least doing more than mere scalds.



> Being less durable than _Susano'o_ doesn't equate to immediate liquefaction. _Susano'o_ grants more than mere seconds even after the acidity has been increased; Tsunade will have more of those precious seconds than a Zetsu spore or newly exposed Sasuke, especially with _Byakugō no Jutsu_ fueled by Chakra levels sufficient to heal thousands simultaneously across Konoha twice over before being depleted. The Hokage has more than enough time to nail Mei.


It doesn't liquefy immediately but she'll be in great pain (similar to the swords/lava hurts alot) and will be forced to waste time and energy regenerating. Also it may not reduce her to a puddle but it should take off a hand/leg/limb if she gets a good splashing.



> _Susano'o_ couldn't tank it either, hence it broke.


It did take two shots plus Mei's Suiton and Ei's lightened Chop too. 


> Splash did nothing to Madara's _Susano'o_ and similarly did nothing to Sasuke's significantly weaker _Susano'o_. Tsunade does not have to be in _Susano'o's_ league of durability for limbs to stay attached after a splash.


We've been over this but chakra is more resistant to heat than human flesh. Punching away Katon does not equate to bathing in superhot magma. Also Kekkai Genkai are usually stronger than their weaker counterparts (Katon, Doton).



> She doesn't need to be as durable as _Susano'o_ to only get scalds from a *splash that did nothing* to _Susano'o_ in the first place.
> 
> If Tsunade were as durable as _Susano'o_ she would only get scalds from _prolonged exposure_ to the lava, and I'm _not saying_ that she would get away with mere scalds _from prolonged exposure_. She doesn't need to be able to as the lava will not be in contact with her for nearly as long comparatively.


See point above.



> For starters Pein never thought a "few dozen" or even just a dozen lines of dialogue in less than a second.
> 
> Additionally, thinking processes are far faster than actual spoken sentences. People think that fast in real life, they don't talk that fast.


He had a few lines thinking over what to do next. It doesn't matter, Madara getting drenched wasn't a large time-frame, neither was Sasuke in the acid mist. Both Susanoo are more resistant to heat than Tsunade so she has less time.



> Hashirama's _Mokujin no Jutsu_ even in base is a whole lot larger than the tree trunks Madara's _Jukai Kōtan_, which I'd imagine has to do with Madara being new to his abilities and simply trying to "test them out".


Kabuto mentions he's just as skilled. His regular Mokuton may not be island-mountain level like Hashirama's but it's still pretty damn durable. Capable of giving BM Naruto trouble.


> Obvious hyperbole is hyperbole, and the standalone fact that it destroyed Mokuton was not my point. The point was that it was sufficient to completely grind away the branches _whilst being incapable of doing the same to_ _Susano'o_, which you are claiming Mei's lava melts without considering how long it took to melt it.


Madara's Susanoo is ridiculously durable and resistant to heat; look how much power the Kages used to bust his weakest form. Tsunade on the other hand isn't anywhere near that level; can you imagine what an Onoki-powered Ei smash would do to Tsunade? Even taking slightly longer to melt something of that level is impressive to me.



> Both being classified as Kage level doesn't lead to an equivalent increase in the disparity of their primary attributes over real world examples, especially considering just how broad the "Kage level" range is. Tsunade's gotten far more emphasis on her strength than Mei has her Suitons and I can guarantee you that Tsunade could do much more than match six fodder physically.


I consider both Tsunade and Mei low-mid level Kage, Tsunade is higher. Nothing suggests Mei and Tsunade are worlds apart portrayal-wise. The only Gokage that stood above the rest was Onoki.  


> I _could_ see Kishi doing it, but I was picturing Tsunade staying rooted in place as opposed to hurtling backwards more than anything.


I can't, I see her getting pushed back slowly and unable to escape due to the pressure.



> CT renders grip irrelevant considering that anything it could possibly have gripped would have been sucked in _right alongside it_. Was _Susano'o_ supposed to be sucked off of Itachi faster than he could throw _Yasaka Magatama_ or faster than the very rock Itachi was standing on?
> 
> Sasuke's anchored itself because Sasuke would have been sucked in otherwise.
> 
> ...








> Yes, and? Tsunade's words mean she countered it more than once why?
> 
> I'm pretty sure even the OBD acknowledges using calcs in-verse is borderline retarded. That's a prime example of why considering that the calc is a cloud feat and neglects that _Amaterasu_ was a key contributor to those clouds in the first place. Nevermind the advantage the Five Great Changes in Nature affords Mei throwing even more of a wrench into that claim.
> 
> It was giant Chōji that survived GM's roar, not human sized Chōji who admitted he would have been roasted. And while I could get on board with Mei using other elements, exactly what standard Katon or Doton is going to do anything against Tsunade? You want Mei to hide underground against someone who makes the ground their bitch with a finger?


If Mei hides to get away after using Hidden Mist then why would Tsunade slam the ground. Katon could be a good distraction for getting away. We'll drop the town-level point however they are still reasonably impressive in size and Mei is possibly the second best Suiton user after Kisame. I doubt Tsunade is shrugging them off easily.




> Mei has zero direct movement feats so how do you even know what the speed difference is? And how far away from the water's surface do they begin anyway? Mei only has Ninjutsu execution feats. Tsunade's _Shunshin_ was quick enough to intercept Madara's fireball flurry faster than the Suiton would leave Mei's mouth after her seal.


See I hate to do this but this annoys me. I'm not generalizing but I've seen some Tsunade fans (not you) claim Hebi Sasuke isn't much faster than her despite the 4.5 (without CS2) vs 3.5 speed gap, 3 tomoe Sharingan and much better Shunshin feats. To me a speed gap has to be large for Tsunade to do what you're suggesting; Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed, is decently fast but nothing special.

Unless Mei is like say a 2.5 in speed and has shit reactions (she could attack in tandem with V2 Ei so no), Tsunade isn't straight-up blitzing her. Mei also did blitz Black Zetsu, Tsunade is faster but feats suggests it's not a great gap.



> Actually . . . Suiton if anything should be more 'solid' than those fireballs. Tsunade smacks it to the side just like she smacked away the stronger version of your loltown-level Katon.


I really doubt this, I'm sorry.

I can't see her smashing a Water Dragon to the side.


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## Veracity (Oct 24, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> But you would agree getting scalded would still hurt a lot yes? Which should slow Tsunade down to the point where Mei can escape down into the lake below.
> 
> 
> Tsunade needs to be able to have at least similar heat resistance to Susanoo in my opinion, in order to merely get off with scalds. Susanoo gets off with little damage from splashes because it's a chakra construct, Tsunade isn't therefore she'll take a lot more damage. Tsunade has better endurance than durability in my opinion, swords and kunais still hurt her however she can tank them all day long. Therefore I think it's logical to assume a powerful Kekkai Genkai is capable of at least doing more than mere scalds.
> ...



Why are you using before war stats for Tsunade? That's completely illogical. That's like using part 1
feats for Sasuke and saying he loses to Hiruzen 

& just because you don't see A water dragon being punched away doesn't mean it's a valid conclusion. Katon in general should be impossible to punch away but Tsunade Kinda does have a feat for that. & considering she's too tier in physical strentgh and chakra control; I see her smacking away her Suitons with low difficulty.


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## Ersa (Oct 25, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I disagree. Granted Tsunade isn't fast enough to blitz Mei, since her reaction speed is pretty high. However Tsunade's speed, coupled with her evasive ability, makes hitting her with ninjutsu very difficult.


Mei was attacking in tandem with Tsunade and V2 Ei, her movement speed doesn't seem amazing but honestly Tsunade's has never been noted to be a speedster. I noted Tsunade is probably faster (which you obviously agree with) but I don't feel it's a large gap. Nothing suggests that to me, both have average Kage-level speed/reactions. 



> I question if Mei would be capable of doing that. Tsunade has jumped huge distances before at alarmingly quick paces, so as big as Mei suitons are I don't think they could delay Tsunade for long. Tsunade has Katsuyu for Mei to deal with as well - potentially thousands of slugs that can act as effective diversions while Tsunade gets close. Hidden mist is dangerous though it blinds Mei as well, so she has to be cautious


Katsuyu is restricted.

Mei should operate better under hidden mist; unlike Tsunade she can spray acidic mist and Katon through the mist to wear her down. 



> Only if she spends prolonged periods of time encased in them. I don't think Tsunade will be hit by Youton, but acid mist will burn her when she approaches Mei. Tsunade's stamina is dependant on how much chakra she has stored inside her seal, though with only a few weeks of chakra she could regenerate from numerous critical hits from Madara, as well as pump chakra into her team-mates. Running into Mei's Futton for a short period of tie and finishing her off in CQC is feasible without Tsunade's energy reserves running dry.


How long is pro-longed? Even with regeneration I don't think Tsunade wants to bath in molten lava for too long. Heat-based attacks like Amaterasu have always worked better against regeneration due to the damage over time; Youton is similar in some respects. And as I told FlamingRain; Tsunade is nowhere near as heat resistant as Susanoo and thus Youton should melt her quicker. Mei won't stay in CQC though, Tsunade will wreck her in seconds if she does. If Tsunade rushes her she needs to go into the lake below to spam more powerful Suitons to win. I mean c'mon, I think Tsunade is stronger too but the location favours Mei and her boss summon is restricted. Both are nowhere near the top of the Kage spectrum (guys like Jiraiya&Onoki), I think suggesting that Tsunade can win in a situation where Katsuyu is restricted and the location is extremely favourable to her opponent is selling Mei short quite frankly.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2013)

"Attacking in tandem with" doesn't mean diddly. Kakashi was coordinating maneuvers with Bijuu Mode Naruto and Gated Gai. Hell, the entire 30,000-man alliance attacked in perfect synchronization with each other. Really, who cares? The only thing it proves is how well separate parties can work together.


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## Ersa (Oct 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> "Attacking in tandem with" doesn't mean diddly. Kakashi was coordinating maneuvers with Bijuu Mode Naruto and Gated Gai. Hell, the entire 30,000-man alliance attacked in perfect synchronization with each other. Really, who cares? The only thing it proves is how well separate parties can work together.


Kakashi isn't exactly slow, Naruto wasn't using Shunshin either. Attacking in tandem doesn't mean that Kakashi is near Gated Gai or Naruto however; it does show that he can at least perceive their movements. The army point is pretty eh, they're all fodder and around the same level. Don't see how that changes anything. Unless you're talking about fodder attacking in tandem with Naruto or something, I see it more as him leading them into battle rather than a coordinated effort.

Mei attacking with Raikage doesn't mean she's anywhere near his speed; she should still have been able see him however and time her attacks else he'd have to dodge too. I feel this is enough for me to say Tsunade isn't blitzing her and sending her to the moon cause V2 Ei >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tsunade in speed.

I kinda have to dig at straws cause Tsunade and Mei have rather lacking speed/reactions feat


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Kakashi isn't exactly slow, Naruto wasn't using Shunshin either. Attacking in tandem doesn't mean that Kakashi is near Gated Gai or Naruto however; it does show that he can at least perceive their movements. The army point is pretty eh, they're all fodder and around the same level. Don't see how that changes anything. Unless you're talking about fodder attacking in tandem with Naruto or something, I see it more as him leading them into battle rather than a coordinated effort.




Kakashi cannot perceive Naruto's Shunshin unless his visual perception is massively better than that of Mangekyou Sasuke's, which it isn't.

The 9 rookies were able to attack in tandem with Naruto & Sauce (and with each other), Gai & Lee were able to attack in tandem with Naruto, etc etc etc. 



> Mei attacking with Raikage doesn't mean she's anywhere near his speed; she should still have been able see him however and time her attacks else he'd have to dodge too. I




I don't view combination attacks as speed feats for either party. Even if one was massively faster than the other, he/she would slow down to their partners level (even if it isn't mentioned). We see this with KCM Naruto & Sasuke _all the time._

Mei cannot perceive the Raikage's movementis in v2, as Sasuke with his fully matured Sharingan couldn't even do that. Mei's _nowhere_ near him.



> feel this is enough for me to say Tsunade isn't blitzing her and sending her to the moon cause V2 Ei >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tsunade in speed.




Tsunade isn't blitzing anything in the Kage spectrum, simply because every Kage level being has demonstrated the necessary reflexes to react to her. She isn't a speedster.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 25, 2013)

Thanks for the message, Kyokan. But I finished this before I saw it so I'm posting it anyway. 



Kyokan said:


> But you would agree getting scalded would still hurt a lot yes? Which should slow Tsunade down to the point where Mei can escape down into the lake below.



It would, but Tsunade's pain tolerance is astronomically high. Woman boss summons while bisected and is still primarily worried about _other people with lesser injuries_ (one of those people having tolerated _Amaterasu_ burning his arm). She is after all a Senju/Uzumaki hybrid; one clan has Tobirama surviving getting half his head blasted off, despite Edos having the capacity to "die" temporarily, and the other clan has Kushina surviving the Nine Tails getting ripped out of her after birthing a child in spite of it usually resulting in instant death as was seen with Gaara and attested to by Tobi.



> Tsunade needs to be able to have at least similar heat resistance to Susanoo in my opinion, in order to merely get off with scalds. Susanoo gets off with little damage from splashes because it's a chakra construct, Tsunade isn't therefore she'll take a lot more damage. Tsunade has better endurance than durability in my opinion, swords and kunais still hurt her however she can tank them all day long. Therefore I think it's logical to assume a powerful Kekkai Genkai is capable of at least doing more than mere scalds.



Her resilience factor easily eclipses her durability, sure, but she's still legitimately especially durable.

Sasuke did worse to Danzō with a non-Chakra-flowed katana than Orochimaru did to Tsunade with the legendary _Kusanagi no Tsurugi_ which hurts Enma, despite Orochimaru being in a position to achieve the same thing as Sasuke, and given his ability to push KN4 into a cliff across and beyond a giant crater as opposed to pushing his head in the opposite direction I doubt his neck is any weaker than his arms given his snake-like anatomy, and he is in the same physical strength tier as Sasuke statistically. The damage Tsunade sustained from _Tensō no Jutsu_ is also a far cry from being turned into ribbons like every other person save the Third Raikage. Tsunade took minor injury, while Ay, who had doubted his survival prior, expressed noticeable physical discomfort. So I'm pretty confident she's on the lower end of base Ay's tier of durability.

_Susano'o_ gets off with _no_ damage from lava splashes at all, and gets off with "little damage" from prolonged exposure, which only partially melted it. And while Chakra feels no pain, Tsunade's got so much pain tolerance I don't think it really matters.

I still expect scalding as opposed to any detaching limbs, unless she's encased for as long as _Susano'o_ was, which is rather unlikely given that she'll be moving around a lot more.



> It did take two shots plus Mei's Suiton and Ei's lightened Chop too.



That's actually incorrect.

_Susano'o_ reconstructed the fractures inflicted by Tsunade's initial punch before she kicked it. Mei's Suiton didn't do anything other than push it towards Ohnoki without actually harming it, while Ay's chop mainly served as a "brace" of sorts for Tsunade's kick, which shattered the opposite side that (Less force was wasted on it flying away, although it still inevitably flew in the end. Tsunade's lower body strength exceeds her upper body strength as we can see with _Tsūtenkyaku_ to the ground doing as much damage to the surrounding walls as Tsunade's backhand to the wall itself.)



> We've been over this but chakra is more resistant to heat than human flesh. Punching away Katon does not equate to bathing in superhot magma. Also Kekkai Genkai are usually stronger than their weaker counterparts (Katon, Doton).



I don't disagree with that statement, but I've been saying she _won't be bathing in it_. I know _Susano'o_ is more resistant, that's why it was able to come out of a splash unscathed where I expect Tsunade to be scalded (which isn't at all unscathed).



> Kabuto mentions he's just as skilled. His regular Mokuton may not be island-mountain level like Hashirama's but it's still pretty damn durable. Capable of giving BM Naruto trouble.



I don't remember Kabuto saying this? 

I'm almost certain that had an awful lot to do with the Bijū suppression attribute of Mokuton and Naruto relying on the power of a Bijū.



> I consider both Tsunade and Mei low-mid level Kage, Tsunade is higher. Nothing suggests Mei and Tsunade are worlds apart portrayal-wise. The only Gokage that stood above the rest was Onoki.



Ohnoki only stood out above the rest as morale support, particularly because Madara made it his goal some time ago to attempt breaking down everyone's determination.

If the _Susano'o_ army scuffle is anything to go by then in terms of fighting prowess Mei was the weak-link, followed by Gaara, and they both agreed the clones were too strong for them to fight. Tsunade was more or less to her clones what Kamiccolo was to Android 17, where she could rattle her clones up quite a bit but not quite finish them off, and while they couldn't finish her off either they had the advantage of endless Chakra on their side (put her in Ay's situation and she would have regenerated after being stabbed snapped her out of the Genjutsu); Ay was was harder to catch but was unable to even rattle his clones up; Ohnoki was able to temporarily immobilize his clones with his weighted rock techniques although unable to actually damage them, but having the least amount of stamina of the remaining Kage he was spent after achieving it by his own admission.

Tsunade being the only conscious Kage after Madara's off panel rampage (possibly PS?) in spite of his claim to kill her first, combined with power-deadlock Sannin links (I do think they're relative equals) and the Hokage traditionally being the strongest of the Five Kage have me calling Tsunade MVP of the Five Kage.



> I can't, I see her getting pushed back slowly and unable to escape due to the pressure.



I don't think the ability to lift an airborne _Susano'o_ with no limbs and drown out Katon however large suggests that the water dragon has enough pressure to push back current Tsunade of all people, or even the Raikages.

20 years out of shape Tsunade was laughing while swinging around building sized swords over a hundred meters in the air.



> If Mei hides to get away after using Hidden Mist then why would Tsunade slam the ground. Katon could be a good distraction for getting away. We'll drop the town-level point however they are still reasonably impressive in size and Mei is possibly the second best Suiton user after Kisame. I doubt Tsunade is shrugging them off easily.



That's her widest option outside of Katsuyu. She's shown that she isn't above altering the terrain in order to mess up her opponents as seen with Naruto, Kabuto and Orochimaru, the last two being lucky enough to have nearby walls and obstacles to jump to and over until bloodlusted Tsunade wore herself out and the size of her craters decreased.

Such craters, would be even harder to avoid than normal within a vision obscuring mist present.



> See I hate to do this but this annoys me. I'm not generalizing but I've seen some Tsunade fans (not you) claim Hebi Sasuke isn't much faster than her despite the 4.5 (without CS2) vs 3.5 speed gap, 3 tomoe Sharingan and much better Shunshin feats. To me a speed gap has to be large for Tsunade to do what you're suggesting; Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed, is decently fast but nothing special.
> 
> Unless Mei is like say a 2.5 in speed and has shit reactions (she could attack in tandem with V2 Ei so no), Tsunade isn't straight-up blitzing her. Mei also did blitz Black Zetsu, Tsunade is faster but feats suggests it's not a great gap.



To be honest I don't think Tsunade's 3.5 is very representative of her capacity for quickness because the speed statistic is isolated from other stats that matter somewhat more for her than most. Tsunade prioritizes in anticipation, which can allow her a greater window of time to respond to something than raw reflex and has just as much to do with general intelligence and intuition (which she' boasts a 5 in); meanwhile most of her speed feats likely come from _Shunshin_, a Ninjutsu (something she also has a 5 out of 5 in, and she's supposed to have extremely meticulous Chakra control).

Featwise: as far as responding, she was able to react to Kabuto's surprise underground strike from inches away while exhausted on top of being very rusty, and recently after being shot out of _Tensō no Jutsu_, Madara, who is especially fast, was already in close while quickly advancing by the time he became visible (cuz she had just been going at lightspeed before) yet it didn't stop her from immediately coordinating her kick under his attempted guard, which speaks volumes if you remember the admitted weakness of movement-speed reliant techniques such as _Chidori_. Directly moving, she's capable of intercepting Manda before he could snap his jaws shut, launching a two-pronged assault alongside Deidara-matching-flying Ohnoki from a further distance, and intercepting Madara's Katon flurry (the kind that Sasuke sent into the atmosphere- pretty far, pretty fast) before a Suiton was cast.

I don't at all think she's Hebi Sasuke speedster fast or even Kakashi fast, but still pretty fast (read: more than what a 3.5 suggests); swift enough to make sense out of what she did to Orochimaru and Shizune despite their statistical superiority in that department.

Mei is no Gaara, but while reflexive enough to toss lava under a plummeting Madz she isn't exactly a fighter usually reliant on direct mobility either. Zetsu was able to block, so I wouldn't really call that a blitz.

I don't think Tsunade is blitzing anything, but I start to question how reliably the Mizukage can retreat to the waters below before Tsunade juggernauts twenty meters, especially uncertain of how far away from those waters the two begin.



> I really doubt this, I'm sorry.
> 
> I can't see her smashing a Water Dragon to the side.



We can agree to disagree here, but I think it's at least something to consider given that we've seen fireballs and nuclear bombs get smacked around with raw physicality as if they were water balloons like nobody's business, I find it very easy to visualize a water dragon being smacked away, and if not, at least dispersed not too dissimilar to what Gai did Gaara's sand.


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## Ersa (Oct 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Thanks for the message, Kyokan. But I finished this before I saw it so I'm posting it anyway.


Well let's continue 



> It would, but Tsunade's pain tolerance is astronomically high. Woman boss summons while bisected and is still primarily worried about _other people with lesser injuries_ (one of those people having tolerated _Amaterasu_ burning his arm). She is after all a Senju/Uzumaki hybrid; one clan has Tobirama surviving getting half his head blasted off, despite Edos having the capacity to "die" temporarily, and the other clan has Kushina surviving the Nine Tails getting ripped out of her after birthing a child in spite of it usually resulting in instant death as was seen with Gaara and attested to by Tobi.


Indeed, she can still function but she still feels pain and yells when hit and whatnot. Also when she was split in half, she was on the verge of collapse and probably wasn't feeling anything (below the waist ). I still think being by lava will cause her pain, maybe a a yell and some staggering. Anything Mei can do to keep Tsunade at bay helps.



> Her resilience factor easily eclipses her durability, sure, but she's still legitimately especially durable.


I don't disagree, but she isn't straight up tanking the lava without feeling pain and slowing down. She's certainly not getting severely burnt then simply contiune rushing Mei after being hit by Youton. She'll probably have to stop and wait for the regen to kick in; giving Mei more time to get away.


> Sasuke did worse to Danzō with a non-Chakra-flowed katana than Orochimaru did to Tsunade with the legendary _Kusanagi no Tsurugi_ which hurts Enma, despite Orochimaru being in a position to achieve the same thing as Sasuke, and given his ability to push KN4 into a cliff across and beyond a giant crater as opposed to pushing his head in the opposite direction I doubt his neck is any weaker than his arms given his snake-like anatomy, and he is in the same physical strength tier as Sasuke statistically. The damage Tsunade sustained from _Tensō no Jutsu_ is also a far cry from being turned into ribbons like every other person save the Third Raikage. Tsunade took minor injury, while Ay, who had doubted his survival prior, expressed noticeable physical discomfort. So I'm pretty confident she's on the lower end of base Ay's tier of durability.


Didn't Sasuke stab Danzo with Chidori Eisou both times? Or are you referring to his slash where Danzo caught him with a Curse Mark? Well I don't disagree but 
- I disagree, arm strength > mouth strength, even with snake-like anatomy, he's still 'human'. 
- Even with Kusanagi, I doubt Sasuke would've split Danzo in two. Perhaps on the verge but not quite. Even with it's hype Kusanagi hasn't shown much, Kakashi's Raikiri casually cuts the limbs of V2 Jinns but Kusanagi fails against KN4. I doubt it'd even cut a tail off given what it did to KN4.

Hm, I don't think she's near Ei. He still came out with basically no injuries while hers warranted healing (Tsunade wouldn't waste Sozo Saisei (burn chakra and her own lifeforce) for minor injuries. Ei can almost straight-up tank Chidori; cloak aside I don't think Tsunade is near Ei but it doesn't matter as Ei is a massive tank. 



> _Susano'o_ gets off with _no_ damage from lava splashes at all, and gets off with "little damage" from prolonged exposure, which only partially melted it. And while Chakra feels no pain, Tsunade's got so much pain tolerance I don't think it really matters.


She still feels pain, at times when she's been hit in the manga she still yells (Yasaka hit, etc.). I think it'll still slow her down a little.


> I still expect scalding as opposed to any detaching limbs, unless she's encased for as long as _Susano'o_ was, which is rather unlikely given that she'll be moving around a lot more.


Severe scalding, something on the level of Nagato where he lost his mobility forever. She can regen but she will slow down. 



> That's actually incorrect.
> 
> _Susano'o_ reconstructed the fractures inflicted by Tsunade's initial punch before she kicked it. Mei's Suiton didn't do anything other than push it towards Ohnoki without actually harming it, while Ay's chop mainly served as a "brace" of sorts for Tsunade's kick, which shattered the opposite side that (Less force was wasted on it flying away, although it still inevitably flew in the end. Tsunade's lower body strength exceeds her upper body strength as we can see with _Tsūtenkyaku_ to the ground doing as much damage to the surrounding walls as Tsunade's backhand to the wall itself.)


Ei's strike contributed, I'll grant you Mei's did not do much. Ei can already punch through Sasuke's, now lighten his strikes and he has power weaker but comparable to Tsunade. He cracked it too iirc with Onoki. 



> I don't disagree with that statement, but I've been saying she _won't be bathing in it_. I know _Susano'o_ is more resistant, that's why it was able to come out of a splash unscathed where I expect Tsunade to be scalded (which isn't at all unscathed).


Without Susanoo's heat resistance, even splashes will take their toll and slow her down.



> I don't remember Kabuto saying this?


Well Tsunade did mention his Flower World was more or less the same as her grandfathers. His Wood Dragon did a good job of restraining Naruto; I wouldn't doubt Madara's Mokuton skill.



> I'm almost certain that had an awful lot to do with the Bijū suppression attribute of Mokuton and Naruto relying on the power of a Bijū.


It's still impressive against a being that can knock away TBB's casually.



> Ohnoki only stood out above the rest as morale support, particularly because Madara made it his goal some time ago to attempt breaking down everyone's determination.


C'mon now. Onoki was the strongest. He was the only one who defeated his clones, saved Ei, gave the Gokage a chance. Everyone was needed but Onoki saved their asses twice and Madara wanted to get rid of him.


> If the _Susano'o_ army scuffle is anything to go by then in terms of fighting prowess Mei was the weak-link, followed by Gaara, and they both agreed the clones were too strong for them to fight. Tsunade was more or less to her clones what Kamiccolo was to Android 17, where she could rattle her clones up quite a bit but not quite finish them off, and while they couldn't finish her off either they had the advantage of endless Chakra on their side (put her in Ay's situation and she would have regenerated after being stabbed snapped her out of the Genjutsu); Ay was was harder to catch but was unable to even rattle his clones up; Ohnoki was able to temporarily immobilize his clones with his weighted rock techniques although unable to actually damage them, but having the least amount of stamina of the remaining Kage he was spent after achieving it by his own admission.


Mei is the weakest in CQC, both yeah I agree her and Gaara are the weakest.

Ei and Tsunade were both holding their own.

Guess who beat his? 


> Tsunade being the only conscious Kage after Madara's off panel rampage (possibly PS?) in spite of his claim to kill her first, combined with power-deadlock Sannin links (I do think they're relative equals) and the Hokage traditionally being the strongest of the Five Kage have me calling Tsunade MVP of the Five Kage.


Madara didn't pull out PS again, that is basically canon as per his statement. It looks like he split her with Mokuton. SM Jiraiya is quite a bit stronger than Tsunade imo, the Sannin are not equal. I'd argue Onoki was the MVP with Tsunade behind him. 



> I don't think the ability to lift an airborne _Susano'o_ with no limbs and drown out Katon however large suggests that the water dragon has enough pressure to push back current Tsunade of all people, or even the Raikages.
> 
> 20 years out of shape Tsunade was laughing while swinging around building sized swords over a hundred meters in the air.


I think it is but I guess we'll agree to disagree here.



> That's her widest option outside of Katsuyu. She's shown that she isn't above altering the terrain in order to mess up her opponents as seen with Naruto, Kabuto and Orochimaru, the last two being lucky enough to have nearby walls and obstacles to jump to and over until bloodlusted Tsunade wore herself out and the size of her craters decreased.
> 
> Such craters, would be even harder to avoid than normal within a vision obscuring mist present.


Mei should have enough speed to avoid that, especially with manga knowledge she'll want to head to the lake ASAP.



> To be honest I don't think Tsunade's 3.5 is very representative of her capacity for quickness because the speed statistic is isolated from other stats that matter somewhat more for her than most. Tsunade prioritizes in anticipation, which can allow her a greater window of time to respond to something than raw reflex and has just as much to do with general intelligence and intuition (which she' boasts a 5 in); meanwhile most of her speed feats likely come from _Shunshin_, a Ninjutsu (something she also has a 5 out of 5 in, and she's supposed to have extremely meticulous Chakra control).


I think it's quite fair. Tsunade has decent speed for a Kage but her areas are healing, strength and durability, not speed. She's good at dodging yes but so are speedsters like Gai, Itachi, etc. And they have Gates and Sharingan as well.



> Featwise: as far as responding, she was able to react to Kabuto's surprise underground strike from inches away while exhausted on top of being very rusty, and recently after being shot out of _Tensō no Jutsu_, Madara, who is especially fast, was already in close while quickly advancing by the time he became visible (cuz she had just been going at lightspeed before) yet it didn't stop her from immediately coordinating her kick under his attempted guard, which speaks volumes if you remember the admitted weakness of movement-speed reliant techniques such as _Chidori_. Directly moving, she's capable of intercepting Manda before he could snap his jaws shut, launching a two-pronged assault alongside Deidara-matching-flying Ohnoki from a further distance, and intercepting Madara's Katon flurry (the kind that Sasuke sent into the atmosphere- pretty far, pretty fast) before a Suiton was cast.


Kabuto is more or less the same speed as her so it's a decent feat but nothing too impressive considering Part II Mei should be much faster than Kabuto then (granted Tsunade isn't rusty here too). 

I don't consider that Madara feat legit, he wasn't expecting Tsunade. I do agree the Katon feat is very impressive however.


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## Ersa (Oct 26, 2013)

> I don't at all think she's Hebi Sasuke speedster fast or even Kakashi fast, but still pretty fast (read: more than what a 3.5 suggests); swift enough to make sense out of what she did to Orochimaru and Shizune despite their statistical superiority in that department.


I think she's probably a 4 in speed now. But speed is not her forte.



> Mei is no Gaara, but while reflexive enough to toss lava under a plummeting Madz she isn't exactly a fighter usually reliant on direct mobility either. Zetsu was able to block, so I wouldn't really call that a blitz.
> 
> I don't think Tsunade is blitzing anything, but I start to question how reliably the Mizukage can retreat to the waters below before Tsunade juggernauts twenty meters, especially uncertain of how far away from those waters the two begin.


I'd agree Tsunade would catch her eventually but clever use of Suiton, Youton and Katon can provide distractions for her to escape.


> We can agree to disagree here, but I think it's at least something to consider given that we've seen fireballs and nuclear bombs get smacked around with raw physicality as if they were water balloons like nobody's business, I find it very easy to visualize a water dragon being smacked away, and if not, at least dispersed not too dissimilar to what Gai did Gaara's sand.


It's possible but I doubt Kishi would take that route.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 27, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Well let's continue







> Indeed, she can still function but she still feels pain and yells when hit and whatnot. Also when she was split in half, she was on the verge of collapse and probably wasn't feeling anything (below the waist ). I still think being by lava will cause her pain, maybe a a yell and some staggering. Anything Mei can do to keep Tsunade at bay helps.



Her Chakra was almost depleted . . .evidenced by her transformation wearing off and Katsuyu not even being able to draw on her power. Chakra exhaustion results in death for many a ninja, remember what Tsunade went through after using up her Chakra in the Invasion of Pein.

Speaking from a physical standpoint instead of a Chakra one, she's a lot more resilient than Ay who simply continued rushing through _Amaterasu_, so I don't really expect more than a split second of slowing. I see no reason for her to have to stop and wait for the regeneration to kick in, as the regeneration would begin on its own accord regardless of whether she stops or not. The lava will slip off on its own so this isn't like the _Susano'o_ swords where something is in the way and she has to take actively remove it, she can keep her attention centered on Mei.



> Well I don't disagree but
> - I disagree, arm strength > mouth strength, even with snake-like anatomy, he's still 'human'.
> - Even with Kusanagi, I doubt Sasuke would've split Danzo in two. Perhaps on the verge but not quite. Even with it's hype Kusanagi hasn't shown much, Kakashi's Raikiri casually cuts the limbs of V2 Jinns but Kusanagi fails against KN4. I doubt it'd even cut a tail off given what it did to KN4.
> 
> Hm, I don't think she's near Ei. He still came out with basically no injuries while hers warranted healing (Tsunade wouldn't waste Sozo Saisei (burn chakra and her own lifeforce) for minor injuries. Ei can almost straight-up tank Chidori; cloak aside I don't think Tsunade is near Ei but it doesn't matter as Ei is a massive tank.



"Human"? Perhaps by birth but hardly anymore. After seeing what his true body is against Sasuke I'd say Jiraiya was correct that Orochimaru is no longer fit to "walk among men". Either way, that KN4 thing makes Orochimaru's neck neck strength more impressive than Sasuke's arms, which still did much worse to Danzō.

And I think Sasuke would split Danzō in two. He swung from the front with a blade of a length that would have extended over Danzō's shoulder as he cut down into it considering how close they were during the swing, but Sasuke's momentum remained fairly high after a slash that went clean through. We can see from the way the blood gushes that it wasn't a mere slash across the surface of the old man's torso as some of it is coming out of the back of his shoulder and back of his opposite side. I'm willing to bet the only reason we don't see Danzō's top half flip over is because his body disappears and reappears.

Adamantine stinging sharpness is more than what can be said for any non-Chakra-flowed sword as far as I can recall. I doubt the extended limbs of Chakra are are tough as the body itself; additionally, KN4 is almost half of Kurama's power, a whole lot higher than what any of those V2 Jinchūriki possess.

Mabui and Ay previously didn't think even he would survive it (they thought he _may_ have been able to as the Third's son) and we saw that he didn't go through it effortlessly either, so I don't think there's _too much_ of a difference between that and what Tsunade sustained, which was something Ay should have been able to handle. Tsunade herself stated they were minor injuries and they do look pretty minor, but this was the Madara battle where you need to be at your absolute peak and not almost there. (On this note, while Tsunade's injuries were minor, her entire body was exposed to the Jutsu, and we know cutting Tsunade's muscles can sap her natural strength.) _Sōzō Saisei_ is a lot faster than _Shosen_ and Tsunade's Hayflick limit is a heck of a lot higher than your average human's due to her heritage, so she can afford to do such a thing. 



> Ei's strike contributed, I'll grant you Mei's did not do much. Ei can already punch through Sasuke's, now lighten his strikes and he has power weaker but comparable to Tsunade. He cracked it too iirc with Onoki.



Yeah his strike contributed, I just told you _how_ it contributed. They did not strike the same spot, and Ay's strike did not make Tsunade's side of _Susano'o_ any softer than it had been earlier.



> Well Tsunade did mention his Flower World was more or less the same as her grandfathers. His Wood Dragon did a good job of restraining Naruto; I wouldn't doubt Madara's Mokuton skill.



Tsunade was shocked that Madara could use _Kajukai Kōrin_ at all instead of only _Jukai Kōtan_. She never said it was more or less the same as Hashirama's to my knowledge, and given her shock at Hashirama being able to fight against _Perfect Susano'o_ alone later on, I'd start question the accuracy of that conclusion if that was actually what she said and I've simply missed it. She was a mere toddler back then, after all.



> It's still impressive against a being that can knock away TBB's casually.



Yeah, but let's consider that Yamato restrained KN4 yet failed to restrain Kisame.

Madara's Mokuton is obviously a whole lot tougher than Yamato's, but this is just to say that the suppression attribute still plays a very big role.



> C'mon now. Onoki was the strongest. He was the only one who defeated his clones, saved Ei, gave the Gokage a chance. Everyone was needed but Onoki saved their asses twice and Madara wanted to get rid of him.



I truthfully doubt it.

Ohnoki did not "defeat" those clones, Kyokan. He temporarily immobilized them, literally "stopped" them, and spent the rest of his Chakra doing it. He would have been picked off soon after the Jutsu's effects faded. Madara didn't want to get rid of Ohnoki himself either, only to break his will. Think about it chronologically as well, Madara said "So Ohnoki is the problem after all" once he made his speech, and opted to break his will after saying that. That's rather important considering outright killing him would have been a much simpler task.

On the topic of saving people and giving everyone a chance: Are we forgetting who replenished Ohnoki and Gaara's Chakra reserves in the initial stages of the fight, and Mei's sometime afterward? That Madara said the other Kage were only in the game for so long because of Tsunade and that they'd be screwed without her? Whose addition to the offensive finally cornered Madara? The one responsible for the survival of the other four after Madara's off-panel rampage?



> Mei is the weakest in CQC, both yeah I agree her and Gaara are the weakest.
> 
> Ei and Tsunade were both holding their own.
> 
> Guess who beat his?



Looking at its hand, it seems like the clone just trucked through her attack and slammed her rather than Mei having been engaged in close-quarters.

More or less.

Nobody actually beat theirs. . .



> Madara didn't pull out PS again, that is basically canon as per his statement. It looks like he split her with Mokuton. SM Jiraiya is quite a bit stronger than Tsunade imo, the Sannin are not equal. I'd argue Onoki was the MVP with Tsunade behind him.



Madara complained about how it was embarrassing to have to do it again after having used it once. . .

The way I see it, Sage Jiraiya is stronger than Tsunade and Orochimaru by the same margin that they're stronger than his base incarnation, while neither the slug woman or snake man require biding time to reach their peak performances like Jiraiya. Plus I see them defeating an identical range of opponents when pitted against the verse as a whole.

From a portrayal standpoint there's the power-deadlock theme held up by Tsunade being less cautious of Orochimaru who was less cautious of Jiraiya who was less cautious of Tsunade, who knocked out who in the Sannin showdown, Ebisu's "only another Sannin can defeat a Sannin", the advisors holding much the same belief as shown in them telling Jiraiya "as long as you bring the last Sannin back you don't need to do anything" , Orochimaru a once in a generation genius, Tsunade unrivaled in battle or medicine, Jiraiya's skills more exemplary than any other, etc.

I like Jiraiya quite a bit more than Orochimaru or Tsunade, but objectively I'm pretty confident they're intended to be relative equals.



> Mei should have enough speed to avoid that, especially with manga knowledge she'll want to head to the lake ASAP.



Perhaps on the surface, but underground is one of the worst places Mei could be trying to hide against this particular opponent.



> I think it's quite fair. Tsunade has decent speed for a Kage but her areas are healing, strength and durability, not speed. She's good at dodging yes but so are speedsters like Gai, Itachi, etc. And they have Gates and Sharingan as well.



I'm not saying she's a speed beast like they are, though. I'm just saying outside stats likely factor into her capabilities more-so than they do for most, and thus a statistical increase may not be what we should be looking for.



> Kabuto is more or less the same speed as her so it's a decent feat but nothing too impressive considering Part II Mei should be much faster than Kabuto then (granted Tsunade isn't rusty here too).



If they were initially around he same speed they shouldn't have been by that point; rusty Tsunade was exhausted (aka: a lot slower than normal), Kabuto was on ninja steroids (aka: a lot faster than normal).



> I don't consider that Madara feat legit, he wasn't expecting Tsunade.



I'm not sure what Madara expecting it has to do with its legitimacy. I'm saying it's amazing that she didn't just bump into him and instead managed to notice and strike in that instance.



Kyokan said:


> I'd agree Tsunade would catch her eventually



So you'd agree Tsunade eventually wins, right?


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## Ersa (Oct 27, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Her Chakra was almost depleted . . .evidenced by her transformation wearing off and Katsuyu not even being able to draw on her power. Chakra exhaustion results in death for many a ninja, remember what Tsunade went through after using up her Chakra in the Invasion of Pein.


And when you're near death, you honestly wouldn't be feeling much I'd expect. Itachi died of chakra exhaustion and sickness and went peacefully. I'd expect Tsunade was in great pain but on the verge of passing away, mitigating some of that pain.



> Speaking from a physical standpoint instead of a Chakra one, she's a lot more resilient than Ay who simply continued rushing through _Amaterasu_, so I don't really expect more than a split second of slowing. I see no reason for her to have to stop and wait for the regeneration to kick in, as the regeneration would begin on its own accord regardless of whether she stops or not. The lava will slip off on its own so this isn't like the _Susano'o_ swords where something is in the way and she has to take actively remove it, she can keep her attention centered on Mei.


Split-second means a lot for hypersonic ninjas (the FRS feat was at least that speed even disregarding OBD scaling) or at the very least I recall Kishi claiming Gai was Mach 5 as a joke or something. She will slow down after being hit, you agree though? I doubt she can simply walk through superheated magma without slowing down.



> "Human"? Perhaps by birth but hardly anymore. After seeing what his true body is against Sasuke I'd say Jiraiya was correct that Orochimaru is no longer fit to "walk among men". Either way, that KN4 thing makes Orochimaru's neck neck strength more impressive than Sasuke's arms, which still did much worse to Danzō.


There's nothing suggesting that Orochimaru's arm strength is not greater however. Honestly I'd rather go with logic than think up a theory. Sasuke and Orochimaru have the same strength DB score as well.



> And I think Sasuke would split Danzō in two. He swung from the front with a blade of a length that would have extended over Danzō's shoulder as he cut down into it considering how close they were during the swing, but Sasuke's momentum remained fairly high after a slash that went clean through. We can see from the way the blood gushes that it wasn't a mere slash across the surface of the old man's torso as some of it is coming out of the back of his shoulder and back of his opposite side. I'm willing to bet the only reason we don't see Danzō's top half flip over is because his body disappears and reappears.
> 
> Adamantine stinging sharpness is more than what can be said for any non-Chakra-flowed sword as far as I can recall. I doubt the extended limbs of Chakra are are tough as the body itself; additionally, KN4 is almost half of Kurama's power, a whole lot higher than what any of those V2 Jinchūriki possess.


Perhaps but honestly we have no way of telling. I'll just agree and yes he might have, although his own katana did more than enough.

The more tails the Kyuubi gets the stronger it becomes, KN4's TBB looked tiny whethas KN6 looked big even compared to the Konoha Crater. I mean I hate to do this but I feel there's nothing wrong with this OBD calc (KN6's is exponentially bigger according to them and I agree based on mere eye-balling the feats). KN6 couldn't do shit to CT even with TBB but KN8 broke out with pure physical force. V2 Jinns should be comparable if not stronger than KN4.



> Mabui and Ay previously didn't think even he would survive it (they thought he _may_ have been able to as the Third's son) and we saw that he didn't go through it effortlessly either, so I don't think there's _too much_ of a difference between that and what Tsunade sustained, which was something Ay should have been able to handle. Tsunade herself stated they were minor injuries and they do look pretty minor, but this was the Madara battle where you need to be at your absolute peak and not almost there. (On this note, while Tsunade's injuries were minor, her entire body was exposed to the Jutsu, and we know cutting Tsunade's muscles can sap her natural strength.) _Sōzō Saisei_ is a lot faster than _Shosen_ and Tsunade's Hayflick limit is a heck of a lot higher than your average human's due to her heritage, so she can afford to do such a thing.


If she's as much of a tank as you suggest, chakra should mean more than minor injuries.

Ei was relatively unscathed, there is a fair difference but not a great difference. 



> Yeah his strike contributed, I just told you _how_ it contributed. They did not strike the same spot, and Ay's strike did not make Tsunade's side of _Susano'o_ any softer than it had been earlier.


All I'm wondering is if Tsunade could have busted Susanoo herself. I'm tempted to say no as long as she doesn't get more than one hit at a time.



> Tsunade was shocked that Madara could use _Kajukai Kōrin_ at all instead of only _Jukai Kōtan_. She never said it was more or less the same as Hashirama's to my knowledge, and given her shock at Hashirama being able to fight against _Perfect Susano'o_ alone later on, I'd start question the accuracy of that conclusion if that was actually what she said and I've simply missed it. She was a mere toddler back then, after all.


I don't see why Madara's mastery should be any lower, if we look at respective feats Madara seems more or less on par with base Hashirama. SM Hashirama's Mokuton is far superior though.



> Yeah, but let's consider that Yamato restrained KN4 yet failed to restrain Kisame.


Kisame is a physical powerhouse though, he has a 5 in strength like Tsunade and has numerous physical feats. Plus lolresolve 


> Madara's Mokuton is obviously a whole lot tougher than Yamato's, but this is just to say that the suppression attribute still plays a very big role.


It does but even with suppression, overpowering one of the strongest beings in the manga is impressive.



> I truthfully doubt it.
> 
> Ohnoki did not "defeat" those clones, Kyokan. He temporarily immobilized them, literally "stopped" them, and spent the rest of his Chakra doing it. He would have been picked off soon after the Jutsu's effects faded. Madara didn't want to get rid of Ohnoki himself either, only to break his will. Think about it chronologically as well, Madara said "So Ohnoki is the problem after all" once he made his speech, and opted to break his will after saying that. That's rather important considering outright killing him would have been a much simpler task.


Immobilized then went to help Ei. That's Onoki's victory imo.

Yeah the fact he picked Onoki out suggests Onoki was the strongest and most strong-willed too.



> On the topic of saving people and giving everyone a chance: Are we forgetting who replenished Ohnoki and Gaara's Chakra reserves in the initial stages of the fight, and Mei's sometime afterward? That Madara said the other Kage were only in the game for so long because of Tsunade and that they'd be screwed without her? Whose addition to the offensive finally cornered Madara? The one responsible for the survival of the other four after Madara's off-panel rampage?


I'm not undermining Tsunade's performance but her healing doesn't change the fact Onoki saved them from death from Flower World; saved Ei from dying; proceeded to rally the Kages together else they would have all died from the clones (Mei, Gaara had given up). C'mon man I know you like Tsunade but despite how much she helped, Kishimoto literally shoves down our throat the MVP.



> Looking at its hand, it seems like the clone just trucked through her attack and slammed her rather than Mei having been engaged in close-quarters.


Panel? All I recall is Mei getting hit.


> More or less.
> 
> Nobody actually beat theirs. . .


Onoki did technically, his performance was by far the best.

Tsunade and Ei would've died eventually, Onoki stopped his and went to help others.



> Madara complained about how it was embarrassing to have to do it again after having used it once. . .


Implying he wouldn't, you know how prideful he is.

I assure you if he used PS, Tsunade wouldn't be cut in half. She'd be paste on the floor.



> The way I see it, Sage Jiraiya is stronger than Tsunade and Orochimaru by the same margin that they're stronger than his base incarnation, while neither the slug woman or snake man require biding time to reach their peak performances like Jiraiya. Plus I see them defeating an identical range of opponents when pitted against the verse as a whole.


That's really selling Jiraiya short; the dude drove off both Itachi and Kisame in base (granted Itachi wanted to run away) and tussled with Konan (also Kage level) in base. He has boss summons, can still use Ma/Pa and I honestly don't see how Tsunade counters a full power Yomi Numa. I think Tsunade would win but it would be a high difficulty fight. 

I feel SM Jiraiya would win rather easily, his strength is enormous (almost comparable to Tsunade) and he's much faster. He can play guerrilla tactics all day, using clones along with mountain-hollowing COR to wear her out.



> From a portrayal standpoint there's the power-deadlock theme held up by Tsunade being less cautious of Orochimaru who was less cautious of Jiraiya who was less cautious of Tsunade, who knocked out who in the Sannin showdown, Ebisu's "only another Sannin can defeat a Sannin", the advisors holding much the same belief as shown in them telling Jiraiya "as long as you bring the last Sannin back you don't need to do anything" , Orochimaru a once in a generation genius, Tsunade unrivaled in battle or medicine, Jiraiya's skills more exemplary than any other, etc.


Wasn't that a Part I statement? Maybe Base Jiraiya = Tsunade = Orochimaru?

I feel Sage Mode tips the scales.


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## Ersa (Oct 27, 2013)

> I like Jiraiya quite a bit more than Orochimaru or Tsunade, but objectively I'm pretty confident they're intended to be relative equals.


Not by feats they're not. Jiraiya is superior there.



> I'm not saying she's a speed beast like they are, though. I'm just saying outside stats likely factor into her capabilities more-so than they do for most, and thus a statistical increase may not be what we should be looking for.


Everyone has Shunshin though, Mei should too. Tsunade's Shunshin has not been noted to be anything special. It should balance out.



> If they were initially around he same speed they shouldn't have been by that point; rusty Tsunade was exhausted (aka: a lot slower than normal), Kabuto was on ninja steroids (aka: a lot faster than normal).


The steroids only increased blood production iirc; Orochimaru notes it's because he lost blood doing the hand slashing trick.



> I'm not sure what Madara expecting it has to do with its legitimacy. I'm saying it's amazing that she didn't just bump into him and instead managed to notice and strike in that instance.


It's easier to hit someone when they aren't aware you're closing in.



> So you'd agree Tsunade eventually wins, right?


Maybe if there wasn't a lake below she can escape to


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