# A Song of Ice and Fire



## Literally Exaggerated (Apr 25, 2005)

Anyone else read this series (besides Arilou, who I know is a fan)? I really hope so, because it is, hands down, the best fantasy series being published today, and if it maintains its current brilliance, is a possible contender for best fantasy series of all time.

Think of all those staples of fantasy: the destined hero, the princess who loves the peasant, the wise old magical mentor, powerful wizards, weak hordes of monstrous enemies, dark lords, foretold quests against impossible odds, good guys, bad guys. Okay, you have all that tolkein-esque D&D stuff in your head? Good. Throw it out the window. None of it applies to aSoIaF.

Instead you just have people, the most varied, complex, well realized cast of characters assembled in a fantasy novel, ever. And they all have different things they want to accomplish, lands to conquer, battles to win, overarching schemes so complex they would make Shikamaru shit himself. And the story switches from character to character, varied points of view, so there is no "main character", just a bunch of points of view facing off against each other in bloody conflict.

And what conflict! People die in this. Not in the Tolkein or Jordan type way, when main characters only ever die in moments of heroic sacrifice. Nope. "Good" guys, "bad" guys, all can die at any time, when you least expect it. And they stay dead. And because they're so brilliantly realized, you *care*.

Nobody does political intrigue than George RR Martin, few do action this intense and realistic and exciting, no one does characterization or plotting like he does.

Here are just a few of the characters in the story

Tyrion Lannister - Stunted, ugly, twisted. Brilliant, priveledged. Such is the paradox of Tyrion Lannister. The youngest son of the ruthless, wealthy Noble House of Lannister, he is a dwarf. His misshapen appearance has earned him the scorn of the entire world save his brother Jaime, but his brilliant mind makes him too useful a tool to simply discard. Cynical, ruthless, distrustful, he has committed horrible crimes, but he has managed to maintain a scrap of morality in the face of it all. Of course, in the politics of King's Landing, a scrap of morality is the best way to end up dead, and even Tyrion may not be brilliant enough to think his way out of myriad plots surrounding him.

Jaime Lannister - Tyrion's older brother, twin brother and lover (yes, i*c*st) to Queen Cersei. The youngest kinsguard of all time, one of the most brilliant fighters in the world. Handsome, arrogant, reckless. A killer of children, a savior of maidens, he is every bit as paradoxical and complex as his brother.

Arya Stark - Youngest daughter of House Stark, she rejects the noble way for young girls of embroidery and pretty dresses and balls, instead preferring swordplay which she studies under the swordmaster Syrio Forel. She is thrust into the harsh realities of the world, and the slow transformation from good natured tomboy into cold-blooded killer begs the question: When its all over, will there be anything recognizably human about Arya?

Sandor Clegane - the Hound of House Lannister. A towering, powerful warrior. A cynical killer who lives by the creed "only the strong survive", filled with self-loathing, failed morality and a lust for the next drink, he lives for one purpose: to kill his brother Gregor, who held his face in the fire when he was only 6 years old because he used one of his toys. But killing Gregor will be no easy task, as the 8 ft. tall Gregor is among the most feared men in Westeros.

Daenarys Targaryen - Mother of Dragons, the lone surviving daughter of the former kings of Westeros, House Targaryen, she wanders plains with the nomadic, barbarian Dothraki, seeking to reclaim her throne.

These are just a sampling, and in no way can I do them justice. Just trust me, if you like fantasy at all, you need to read this.


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## tygah (Apr 25, 2005)

I love this series man. If only Martin would finish the next book before I die lol.


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## tygah (Apr 25, 2005)

By the way in my opinion I think Jon Snow is the main character.


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## Literally Exaggerated (Apr 25, 2005)

Jon Snow? Possibly. Certainly he seems to be the closest thing to a "hero" in the stories, with the possible exception of Dany. If I had to choose one main character though, I'd say its Ned in the first book, and after that, Dany.


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## MrSnowman (Apr 26, 2005)

I have the feeling Arya is going to be uber in the end. Any idea when the next book is going to be released?
Also I dont think there is a "main character," If there is, its the collective embodiement of the Stark household.


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## tygah (Apr 26, 2005)

Stark house? That sounds good, although I wonder how it will turn out with the mother (i forgot her name it's been so long between books lol). I think Jon will confront her. Also I think Jon and Dany will meet also. He will leave the wall I think.


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## MrSnowman (Apr 27, 2005)

Catlyn Stark? I think, its a C name. I dont think Jon is going to leave the wall, well... 
*Spoiler*: _Book 3 Spoiler_ 



 Jon might leave it, but he will probably remain its commander. He chose his honor over trying to claim the Stark household as his own when he was offered by whats his name (the king no one likes)


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## Literally Exaggerated (Apr 27, 2005)

Yeah, I can't see Jon forsaking the wall. What I'm really looking forward to is


*Spoiler*: __ 



When Tyrion meets up with Dany. Tyrion's brains and knowledge of dragons combined with Dany's forces and charisma? pwnage


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## tygah (Apr 27, 2005)

Well I think the wall will be overrun and He will be forced south. And if all three would be  united I would be happy. Also I don't think there will be any spoilers between us as I think the only ones coming here are ones that has read the books. We've had enough time to read all three many times over lol.


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## Literally Exaggerated (Apr 28, 2005)

GRRM has at various cons read sample chapters from the next book, if you check out the board of ice and fire it has summaries of all of them.


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## tygah (Apr 28, 2005)

So my assumptions are all wrong? I'd rather read the finished product. Could you give me a link to these summaries?


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## Asherah (Apr 28, 2005)

I've been a major fan of the books for a couple years now, and been tortured waiting for Feast >_< 

You're absolutely right, this is a contender for one of the best fantasy series out there. (Although nothing will ever exceed the brilliant of the Farseer trilogy to me!) The characters, the intricate politics, everything is done so well that these books are a great read. And of course, no-one as a reader of the series can help realising that GRRM has a trick for making the characters and their stories very powerful and emotive: they...well...die a lot  It's done well. Like real life, with things cut off abruptly, half-finished...that's one of the reasons I love these books, anyway. Things don't work out all the time. There is no immortal hero, the love isn't cliched, the interactions between the characters are actually interesting and you get something out of them.

Yes, I love these books and I wish there was more fantasy like them. If only more people were willing to see beyond the whole 'sword, dungeon and dragon' idea with fantasy, these books would certainly be up there with the greats of fiction.


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## Aruarian (Apr 28, 2005)

I'm somewhat interested in this series, can anyone PM or tell me some more about it in here?


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## Literally Exaggerated (Apr 28, 2005)

Link removed

most of the top threads with stickies on them include summaries/discussion of spoiler chapters. there are about 20 of them


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## tygah (Apr 28, 2005)

Thanks. Wow I was reading some of the postings, has it really been 6 years between his last book and this one?


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## Literally Exaggerated (Apr 29, 2005)

yep. though he has finished writing this one and it shsould be out by the end of this year.


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## Dr. Maturin (May 8, 2005)

Literally Exaggerated said:
			
		

> yep. though he has finished writing this one and it shsould be out by the end of this year.




Umm go to his website  and don't believe anything unless you get it from his website.  I see no way A Feast For Crows will be out this year.


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## tygah (May 10, 2005)

Well i guess i'll read these three again.


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## SDF1 (Jun 26, 2005)

This is a fantastic series... but I have one question.  

What ever happened to Ned Stark's youngest son?  I don't remember the last book even mentioning him.


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## jkingler (Jun 26, 2005)

Read the May 29th update!!! 



I am SO HAPPY!!!! 

I posted somewhere else, several times, about my great love for this series, and I am supremely happy that I get my hands on more Martin sooner rather than later. And I am just fine with parallel narratives. I read LOTR, and there's a lot of that going on, so I'll live. And the title for book 5: Dances with Dragons!!! *squeals like a schoolgirl*

@The poster above: Bran, the youngest Stark, was most definitely in the last book. Remember the frog eaters? The green dreams? How everyone thinks he is dead? He played a major role in setting up what is to come in the story. I have high hopes for Bran


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## SDF1 (Jun 26, 2005)

jkingler said:
			
		

> @The poster above: Bran, the youngest Stark, was most definitely in the last book. Remember the frog eaters? The green dreams? How everyone thinks he is dead? He played a major role in setting up what is to come in the story. I have high hopes for Bran



Nononononono... not Bran.

Rickon.

WTF ever happened to Rickon?


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## jkingler (Jun 26, 2005)

Oooooh yeah! Rickon! :slapsforehead


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## SamuraiSoul (Aug 11, 2005)

Just finished book 3 in this series.  It's great.  One of the best.  You were right about when someone dies.  You care.

Just a couple things to throw in the air...


*Spoiler*: _ About Jon Snow_ 



I don't think he will be able to hold onto the Lord Commander position for the Wall.  I doubt Stannis will take it.  He will make someone else be the Commander, and force Jon to marry Val, and rule Winterfell.  Someone needs to do it, and since, everyone else in his family is "dead", he's the only one to do it.




*Spoiler*: _ About Arya Stark_ 



Man, she's finally on the way to meet with J'haqen Hgar, or whatever his name is.  I secretly believe he's Syrio Forel.  Also, I remember reading what _valar morghulis_ meant but I forgot.  She is going to be very much kick ass when she learns to change her appearance.




*Spoiler*: _ About Tyrion Lannister_ 



What's he going to do now?  He's going to be hunted by Cersei's hired goons wherever he goes from now on?  What do you think lies in store for him?  Does Jaime really believe he killed Joffrey?  Tons of questions.




*Spoiler*: _ About Sansa Stark_ 



What will she do, now that Littlefinger has killed her Aunt?  Doubtless, no one will believe a "bastard" to what Lord Baelish has to say.  And I doubt she can convince the Eyrie guards that she is of House Stark.  What exactly does Littlefinger think he's going to do with Sansa?  Pretend she's a tiny Catelyn?




*Spoiler*: _ About Catelyn Stark_ 



This has to do with the epilogue from book three.  Unless you have read it, you are warned not to read this.
*Spoiler*: _ Catelyn Starks fate_ 



Now, apparently, Lord Beric Dondarrion is'nt the only person who can be ressurected from the Breath of R'Hollor.  Catelyn was apparently revived from death as well, although she's lost the ability to speak.  She obviously has a DEEP grudge for the Frey's, backstabbing bastards that they are.  I bet she, and the other of Robert's Men are going to give the Frey's hell.







*Spoiler*: _ About Jaime Lannister_ 



What's he going to do now?  He let Tyrion go.  He has no sword arm.  He's useless.  How is he going to continue being the Commander of the Kingsguard when he can't fight at all?  With his father dead, and Tyrion gone, either Cersei or Jaime get the rights to Casterly Rock, and the entire Lannister household.  Will Jaime give up his Kingsguard position?




*Spoiler*: _About Daenerys Targaryen_ 



So.  She's going to play Queen in Meereen.  She now has Barristan the Bold as one of her Queensguard.  Who could have thought Barristan Selmy would go to Daenarys Targeryen?  But it makes sense, since Joffrey, in his "wisdom" deemed Barristan to old to continue on with the Kingsguard, who else would Barristan go to?  But what about poor Jorah Mormont, who came to love our poor Dany?  She had to banish him, because he presumed to tell her what to do, instead of beg her to forgive him like he should have.  I feel sorry for Mormont.  I hope he gets back in Dany's good graces.




And there you have it.


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## Uchiha^Sasuke (Sep 13, 2005)

Heavens, I really love this book!!!
My favourite characters are Loras Tyrell and of course Jaime Lannister. The romance between Jaime and the ugly woman is one of the best love stories I've ever read and Loras is the ideal knight I've always craved for!!! I'll answer to the last post when I come back home and have enough time


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## FitzChivalry (Sep 22, 2005)

Didn't read your description because it would've spoiled the shit outta me. Recently, I've purchased A Game of Thrones but I've decided to read _Eldest_ first(since I read Eragon). I keep hearing great things about this book and series. One person here said that after reading A Song of Fire and Ice series, all other fantasy books just seemed boring to him.


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## Vikrat (Sep 24, 2005)

I borrowed the two first books from the library and loved them, so now i have to try and find the rest of them.


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## Sho (Sep 29, 2005)

The only series that actually compares to Song of Ice and Fire is Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan, and the Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erickson.  Out of the three however, The Malazan Book of the Fallen is most complex, with Song of Ice and Fire in second, and Wheel of Time in third.  But Robert Jordan and Steven Erickson have way better updating speeds than George R.R Martin, who's pissed off everyone with all his delays on the fourth book.  

But I don't believe any other series are on the same level as these three.  They're truly something else, and way better than Tolkien ever was (even though he was the first successful "pioneer" like that in fantasy).


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## Dionysus (Oct 12, 2005)

Yes.  'Tis a good series, so far.

I'll briefly share my thoughts on the underlying idea of the book, and how it relates to characters and the story.  The name of the story is _a Song of Ice and Fire_.  From what we now know, there appears to actually be a fire god, R'hllor, and an ice god, the Other.  Or, at least, these two gods have a lot of power; that's not to say there are no old gods.

Now, so far, we're lead to believe that R'hllor is good, and the Other is bad.  I don't like to assume that, Martin being as he is.  Like the seasons, the power of each waxes and wanes.  Too much ice and you freeze; too much fire and you burn.  So what I reason is that a balance is what humans need.

There are sinister characteristics of both gods' followers.  The Others look quite out for the death of humans, and they raise the dead.  Melisandre doesn't seem to give off an aura of goodness, what with her sucking the lfe out of Stannis to kill people with shadows.  The dead has been raised by the fire god too.

Martin is all about grey characterisations, but something feels off with both gods.

That's not to say that R'hllor will emerge as another villain after the Other is beaten back.  It's just that I think that the solution to the problems will happen when Starks and Targaryen work together.  A song of Ice and Fire.  If Melisandre looks to be trying to kill the Other, I'd be suspicious.

Then there is Jon, who I think represents both fire and ice.  I'm in the camp what thinks he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.  Jon could also represent the song of Ice and Fire.  This sort of lends to him being one of the more important characters (along with Dany and Tyrion; each could represent a head of a dragon, imagery used in the books) in terms of leadership for the entire series, till the end.

Of course, I could be completely off, and R'hllor is a good god, humans are the fire equivalent to the Others, and so on.  It just seems too simple for the story.

Hm...  I'm sure I have more to say...  It's just been so *LONG* since I've really read or thought about all this.


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## Antenox (Oct 13, 2005)

Sho said:
			
		

> The only series that actually compares to Song of Ice and Fire is Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan, and the Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erickson.  Out of the three however, The Malazan Book of the Fallen is most complex, with Song of Ice and Fire in second, and Wheel of Time in third.  But Robert Jordan and Steven Erickson have way better updating speeds than George R.R Martin, who's pissed off everyone with all his delays on the fourth book.
> 
> But I don't believe any other series are on the same level as these three.  They're truly something else, and way better than Tolkien ever was (even though he was the first successful "pioneer" like that in fantasy).


Robert Jordan is in *NO WAY* anywhere near Martin or Erikson. He is one of the worst writers of fantasy of the last fifteen years, whereas Martin and Erikson are two of the best. No other author writes characters as ANNOYING as his female protagonists.

If anyone deserves to be in that "trinity" of modern fantasy authors, it's either R. Scott Bakker ("The Prince of Nothing") or Guy Gavriel Kay ("Tigana").


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## Dionysus (Oct 14, 2005)

Bakker for the win.


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## Dionysus (Nov 20, 2005)

Speculation based from AFFC (so MAJOR spoilers):



*Spoiler*: __ 



- The Alchemist/Pate at the end of the book is the Faceless Man formerly known as Jaqen H'ghar.

- Sandor Clegane is not dead, but rather, his persona, the Hound, is dead.  He's a novice at the Seven monastery that Brienne visits.  The gravedigger with the limp.

- Quentyn Martell is off to fetch (or propose to...) Dany

- Gregor Clegane is undead, or living artificially, possible with a head made from other people's body parts.  Qyburn was going to use "it" to champion for Cersei, who had recently guaranteed that couldn't happen.  The thing might even be larger than Gregor too, since Qyburn requested a suit of armour too big for a man.  It's unclear if it was meant bigger than Clegane's old armour, or just a normal man's.

- Davos is likely alive, since I doubt Manderly would take sides so easily.  He's possibly the method of Arya's return if he was banished.

- Interesting side note: Arya's lesson on poisons gives insight as to how Jaqen killed people in ACOK.  (Basilisk blood given to the dog to kill the guy Weese.  Though, not necessarily true, since he'd have to have hidden the stuff well to still have some.  Or found a nice stash in Harrenhal.)

- I think Jaime is the _valonqar_ of Cersei's foretelling.  She was born before Jaime even though they are twins.  It's unknown whether Jaime killed her by ignoring her plea, or he'll do it later.  She will probably still be alive when Dany arrives, though.  At least, one can hope just to see the look on her face.

- Quentyn Martell is travelling with a maester, I believe.  That might be dangerous for Dany since the Oldtown boys aren't much for prophecy and magic.  Marwyn the Mage tells of the other Archmaesters having an agenda to create a world (or Westeros) without magic.  The dragons might be threatened.

- The Sand Snake Sarella is posing as a maester acolyte (I think that's the rank she had) called Alleras.  Prince Doran says she is out of Dorne currently, and they couldn't lock her up while she continued with her "game" wherever she is.  Alleras is noted as being a very skinny, lithe young man with Dornish features.  A delicate face with big eyes.  Also Alleras Sarella, it's an obvious fake name.  People are probably just not used to seeing a girl with short hair and small breasts and a small waist in conjunction with ethnically different features.  Makes it easy to pose as a man, apart from the voice.

- Arya gave up "her" eyes in an early step towards becoming a Faceless Woman.  It seems ritualistic rather than divinely caused.  I think she will probably have to train when blind, then her sight comes back when the chemical wears off.  Then her hearing is compromised, and she trains, etc.

- I'll post more if I think of them.





Info on the next book, _A Dance with Dragons_, taken from another site:



> GRRM's recent signing at Huntingdon Beach, California, and a few other places has thrown up some interesting new information about ADWD.
> 
> GRRM is confident that he can get the book done for a release about 12-18 months after AFFC. The introduction of the '18 month' statement concerned some people who suddenly feared it was going the way of WoT, but GRRM has now elaborated on the reason for the possible delay: he's going to put back in some of the AFFC characters into ADWD! The original plan was to make ADWD the same length as AFFC and cover the same amount of time, plus a couple of extra months for the longer travel times needed (various characters travelling from Westeros to Meereen). However, this seemed problematic as it meant the character plotlines would be getting out of sync with one another. GRRM seems to have decided to tell the 'flipside' of AFFC and then press ahead with some more stuff resolving the cliffhangers from AFFC.
> 
> ...



Just to clarify, the extension of a few months in ADWD after AFFC will cover all POVs, not just ADWD POVs.  And I think Dany will start heading home near the end of ADWD.


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## jkingler (Nov 21, 2005)

Gah, gah!!! >.<

I almost read some of that! >.>

Spoiler tag it, please. :begs I am only on page 400 right now, since it is my bathroom book, and I don't want to know ANYTHING before I read it, if I can help it 

Btw, Book IV is AWESOME so far. I have to say, I am most interested in Arya so far this time around, but there hasn't been a chapter I've disliked. Also, I must say,


*Spoiler*: __ 



Brienne couldn't have found a more fitting squire than Pod. XD


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## Dionysus (Nov 21, 2005)

Fine fine.  I figured saying there were major spoilers from the book was fine enough. 

Ser.  My Lady.


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## Dionysus (Dec 3, 2005)

No-one wishes to comment on my comments above? :sad


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## jkingler (Dec 4, 2005)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> -The Alchemist/Pate at the end of the book is the Faceless Man formerly known as Jaqen H'ghar.


Could be.


> - Sandor Clegane is not dead, but rather, his persona, the Hound, is dead. He's a novice at the Seven monastery that Brienne visits. The gravedigger with the limp.


Could be.


> - Quentyn Martell is off to fetch (or propose to...) Dany


I thought that was fairly apparent. *shrugs*


> - Gregor Clegane is undead, or living artificially, possible with a head made from other people's body parts. Qyburn was going to use "it" to champion for Cersei, who had recently guaranteed that couldn't happen. The thing might even be larger than Gregor too, since Qyburn requested a suit of armour too big for a man. It's unclear if it was meant bigger than Clegane's old armour, or just a normal man's.


Ooooooh. Interesting. Frankengane! XD


> - Davos is likely alive, since I doubt Manderly would take sides so easily. He's possibly the method of Arya's return if he was banished.


That sounds convenient enough, so I don't doubt it. 


> - Interesting side note: Arya's lesson on poisons gives insight as to how Jaqen killed people in ACOK. (Basilisk blood given to the dog to kill the guy Weese. Though, not necessarily true, since he'd have to have hidden the stuff well to still have some. Or found a nice stash in Harrenhal.)


That makes a lot of sense. 


> - I think Jaime is the valonqar of Cersei's foretelling. She was born before Jaime even though they are twins. It's unknown whether Jaime killed her by ignoring her plea, or he'll do it later. She will probably still be alive when Dany arrives, though. At least, one can hope just to see the look on her face.


Oooh. Nice twist that I actually hadn't thought of, but I totally should have. I suck at guessing what will happen in books, although I am good when it comes to movies. *shrugs*


> - Quentyn Martell is travelling with a maester, I believe. That might be dangerous for Dany since the Oldtown boys aren't much for prophecy and magic. Marwyn the Mage tells of the other Archmaesters having an agenda to create a world (or Westeros) without magic. The dragons might be threatened.


The dragons are definitely threatened by several parties, but I agree, the maesters are certainly going to be one of them.


> - The Sand Snake Sarella is posing as a maester acolyte (I think that's the rank she had) called Alleras. Prince Doran says she is out of Dorne currently, and they couldn't lock her up while she continued with her "game" wherever she is. Alleras is noted as being a very skinny, lithe young man with Dornish features. A delicate face with big eyes. Also Alleras Sarella, it's an obvious fake name. People are probably just not used to seeing a girl with short hair and small breasts and a small waist in conjunction with ethnically different features. Makes it easy to pose as a man, apart from the voice.


Sarella is pulling an Arry, eh? Good call, there. An obvious anagram that eluded my detection. D'oh!


> - Arya gave up "her" eyes in an early step towards becoming a Faceless Woman. It seems ritualistic rather than divinely caused. I think she will probably have to train when blind, then her sight comes back when the chemical wears off. Then her hearing is compromised, and she trains, etc.


This I called as well, and definitely agree with. It is undoubtedly a part of her training, and I look forward to her story picking up again.


> - I'll post more if I think of them.


I posted a few in the other thread, which I am about to go check.




*Tips hat at Sepitmilius*


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## Dionysus (Dec 4, 2005)

As to the Alchemist,


*Spoiler*: __ 



The description of the man formerly known as Jaqen H'ghar is almost worded exactly the same.  Right down to the scar under his right eye.  See ACOK p691 (mm paperback), and AFFC p15.

After I went back and reread that section of ACOK, I'm fairly certain of this.

I haven't the slightest clue what the Faceless Men are doing in the Citadel, though.


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## Pazuzu (Dec 17, 2005)

I'm halfway through Feast, and bored to tears. Pretty much abandoned it for about two weeks now. The Iron Islands are horribly uninteresting. 

I miss the Dance characters. It's bad news for me that it has Feast tie-ins, because I was hoping I could read Dance to get my I&F high back, then go back to finish Feast.

Damn you, Martin.


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## Sho (Dec 17, 2005)

I need to buy Feast for Crows... I didn't even know it was out to tell the truth (was preoccupied with Wheel of Time and finals for the time).  I heard Crows has none of the main characters from the previous books which is a bummer and probably is the reason why I'm not so enthusiastic about getting the book in the first place.  Oh well, I guess it's a necessary read.


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## Pazuzu (Dec 17, 2005)

It has main characters.

What it DOESN'T have is Tyrion, Dany and Jon.

Fnar.


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## Sho (Dec 17, 2005)

In other words, no good main characters?

lol, besides Jaime of course.  Jaime is awesome, and he's my favorite along with Jon, Tyrion, and Dany.  Guess I really don't have that much too look forward too, but at least it'll move the plot along.


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## jkingler (Dec 18, 2005)

You get lots of Cersei, Jaime, Samwell, Brienne, Iron Islanders, Sansa, and, my fave of this book, Arya.

This book sets up a lot of very interesting possibilities. It isn't as good a read as the previous books, but, when it stands alone, it is by no means less than great. Also: read to the end, fools. There is a bonus chapter that will make you VERY happy. :-D


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## DragonHeart52 (Dec 22, 2005)

jkingler said:
			
		

> You get lots of Cersei, Jaime, Samwell, Brienne, Iron Islanders, Sansa, and, my fave of this book, Arya.
> 
> This book sets up a lot of very interesting possibilities. It isn't as good a read as the previous books, but, when it stands alone, it is by no means less than great. Also: read to the end, fools. There is a bonus chapter that will make you VERY happy. :-D


  jk!!  You bastard!  *hehe*

On jk's recommendation, I picked up the book "A Game of Thrones" and stayed up until after 1 this morning reading it (considering I had to get up for work, that left me a few hours sleep short, but it was well worth it).  Then I realize at the end, I've got plenty more to go in this series and I've only finished book 1.  So now, it's off to Amazon and the used book shop to pick up the rest.  Definitely a great read and I'm looking forward to the rest of the series.

I've deliberately skipped a lot of the discussion since I didn't want to risk unintentional spoilers.  I will be back to add my bit as I work through the remaining books.


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## Ninja Blitzkrieg (Dec 22, 2005)

A Feast for Crows was a fantastic read.  It felt soooooo good to be reading Martin again after the long drought between books.  

Also, Beric Dondarrion will shiv you, no questions asked.  Do not mess with that man.


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## Dionysus (Dec 27, 2005)

Ninja Blitzkrieg said:
			
		

> Also, Beric Dondarrion will shiv you, no questions asked.  Do not mess with that man.


Alas, poor Beric... 

I have no reason to doubt Thoros.


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## Nakor (Dec 30, 2005)

my goodness. i just finished book 4. i really had no interest in a good bit of the characters. but knowing the next book will be filled with the characters that were left out(or had only a few chapters) makes me happy. i want more bran, jon, and arya.


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## jkingler (Jan 7, 2006)

And don't forget Dany! Lots and lots of Dany!


----------



## Oskar von Reuental (Jan 7, 2006)

No love for Tyrion Lannister?! 

Infidels!!!


----------



## Sho (Jan 14, 2006)

Tyrion>all

Then Dany, Jon, Jaime, Arya, Sansa, and Bran in that order.


----------



## jkingler (Jan 14, 2006)

Tyrion is himself probably the coolest character, but I much prefer Dany's and Arya's chapters, because there is so much more going on with the so-far unknown regions of the SOIaF world. But maybe that's just me.


----------



## Nakor (Jan 16, 2006)

i agree with Jkingler about the Arya and Dany chapters. I really enjoy them, especially the Arya ones in AFFC.  the upcoming bran chapters are going to be awesome i think. we know nothing of that part of the world now, so it'll be real interesting to learn more about it.

for me it goes:
Jon > Bran > Arya > Jaime > Tyrion > Samwell > Dany > Sansa...then the rest in no particular order. though i did like the chapters concerning Dorne, since its still kind of a mystery


----------



## Rhaella (Feb 2, 2006)

Rhaegar > Jaime > Daenerys > Jon > Tyrion > everyone else

Yes.  I'm dragon-obsessed.  Dead-dragon-obsessed, to be exact. 



			
				jkingler said:
			
		

> You get lots of Cersei, Jaime, Samwell, Brienne, Iron Islanders, Sansa, and, my fave of this book, Arya.
> 
> This book sets up a lot of very interesting possibilities. It isn't as good a read as the previous books, but, when it stands alone, it is by no means less than great. Also: read to the end, fools. There is a bonus chapter that will make you VERY happy. :-D



The end of that made me go WTF!?

Loved seeing Dorne.  Looking forward to Quenten, or whatever his name was.  

Did that leave anyone else with weird conspiracy theories about the Lannister twins?  Two suggestions (Genna, Joanna in the dream) that Tywin wasn't their father wasn't something I could easily push aside.

I wonder who the three queens Littlefinger mentioned are going to be...?  Dany and who?  Sansa?  Margaery?  Arianne?  Asha?  Someone I'm forgetting?  Probably not Cersei, if she gets what she deserves...


----------



## DragonHeart52 (Feb 25, 2006)

Book two out of the way while I was doing a little recovery time.  Again, I'm behind you guys, so I don't look at your posts too closely.

 _Dead_ dragon obsessed??  I certainly hope not, for my sake.

On to book three.  Gotta love those 30% off coupons.  and I do like Tyrion Lannister.  That little guy has a lot of courage in that small body and more integrity than the rest of the family combined (such an understatement).


----------



## pesul (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm still waiting for the 4th book in spanish... This series is a materpierce!


----------



## FitzChivalry (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm finding it kinda tough to get into the book after the first 40 pages for some reason. I'll press on, though, because it's gotten such great reviews and it's still to early to judge the book.


----------



## DragonHeart52 (Mar 2, 2006)

I had a hard time at first too, especially when I thought the worst for Bran.  At that point I had to put the book down for a while.  However, when I picked it up and began to read again, I became more intrigued and before I knew it, I was done and on to the next one.

I actually think I came into this series at a really good time, not having to wait for the next book to come out.  I already purchased both III and IV and am ready to go.  

 *jkingler is a dealer feeding my addiction*


----------



## jkingler (May 8, 2006)

Glad to see (from your post elsewhere) that ASoIaF has regained your interest, 9TH. 

@DH: How has your reading come along? Have you stalled out? If so, I can give you a jump. 

/anxious for book 5. needs more Dany and Tyrion and Jon and...


----------



## Sho (May 8, 2006)

Didn't they say that Book 5 was coming out this year (judging from the authors note at the end of Feast for Crows)?  Hey, I'm glad there's not gonna be as much wait for it as for 4.

Anyways I really liked Feast for Crows despite there not being alot of the characters which I liked.  George R.R Martin is just a great storyteller since he makes any chapter exciting as the others, for whatever character.  Brienne's chapters were always interesting to read and I'm pretty interested to see how she'll do with that cliff hanger that happened.  Cersei is still a bitch though.  I was just laughing when she turned to run away from the priest guy.  Classic. 

By the way, anyone else get some weird vibes from that character?  For some reason (I don't know why) but he reminds me of that one crazy looking priest guy from Berserk (you should know who I'm talking about), as well as that priest character in Hellsing who's Alucard's rival.  You know, like those crusader types with the sword who hang people on the cross while telling them to pray to the lord.  I knew as soon as Cersei gave the permission for him to allow the churches to arm themselves that it'll come bite them all in the ass one day.  They're gonna be a dangerous force soon IMO.

Anyways looking forward to Daenarys next book!  The preview at the end was pretty good but it only makes me want to read it more now..


----------



## Nakor (May 8, 2006)

9Tail-Hokage said:
			
		

> I'm finding it kinda tough to get into the book after the first 40 pages for some reason. I'll press on, though, because it's gotten such great reviews and it's still to early to judge the book.


it was tough for me too. the prologue made me alittle confused about what was going on. but once you got like maybe 100 pages into it, it starts to get interesting. it just takes awhile for the story to pick up.

your post was pretty outdated there. so how far have you gotten in it?

edit: i too think that the book may be out by the end of the year. he did write half of it when the 4th came out.


----------



## Onbu (May 30, 2006)

Allright, some people just hiijacked my Naruto character analysis thread with a discission about this series.  Instead of placing your heads all on pikes in front of my woodshed, I'll give you a chance to sell me.  What's so great about it?  sounds kind of like a fantasy soap opera.  Very character driven.  Characters come and go and you don't even agree who the main character is.  So in a nutshel... the story is:

?


----------



## Dionysus (May 30, 2006)

Onbu said:
			
		

> Allright, some people just hiijacked my Naruto character analysis thread with a discission about this series.  Instead of placing your heads all on pikes in front of my woodshed, I'll give you a chance to sell me.  What's so great about it?  sounds kind of like a fantasy soap opera.  Very character driven.  Characters come and go and you don't even agree who the main character is.  So in a nutshel... the story is:
> 
> ?


It is not typical modern fantasy.  Any magic in the books is far far far in the background.  A mystery, like in the olde stories.  Of course, this changes somewhat, so I hear Martin said, are the end draws near.

The story is, in a lot of ways, historical fiction with supernatural elements very expertly weaved throughout.  Historically speaking, the main story so far is much like  but, obviously highly spruced up with action and drama.

It starts off in the north of what is called Westeros, a continent the size of South America, but seems to be culturally like feudal Britain.  Lord Eddard of House Stark, the House many see as the being the main characters along with a couple others, is called down to serve as the Kings Hand in the Royal Seat in King's Landing (a city), as the previous Hand recently died.  Shit hits the fan when this highly moral and honourable character enters the poisonous political storm that he eluded up north.

Meanwhile, the deposed "King" across a small sea (on an area like continental Europe, I suppose) plots to retake the throne from the Usurper, who currently sits the Iron Throne of Westeros.  He marries his sister, Daenrys to a nomadic Khal (like a king, I suppose) in hopes of using his Hun-like army to retake the throne.

Meanwhile, along the northern border of Westeros, a long-thought vanquished enemy, the Others, creatures of ice and death, appear to be stirring.  A giant wall of ice, _the_ Wall, served thousands of years as a barrier.  Now the threat of the Other's is a myth, not many believe.  Not even amongst the Night's Watch, who stand guard on the Wall.

What can a the Realm do to defend itself from what it doesn't believe when it rots from the inside out from civil war?
**********************

The characters are real and fleshed out.  The characters drive the story, not the action.  But the action is also excellent, but also graphic.  The story moves quickly, but still retains excellent detail in each chapter.  ie. Martin doesn't waste chapters.

It's pretty sweet.  I'd at least recommend trying _A Game of Thrones_.  After reading that in full, if you don't want to continue, there's no reason to force yourself.


----------



## Taleran (Mar 13, 2007)

YA for thread about this series

I love how Martin writes like a serial killer you can't place bets on whose living because NOONE DOES


But I dislike how we're gonna half 2 wait for 2 books to see how the end of Book 4 turns out, NOT FAIR


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 16, 2007)

*kicks GRRM in the nuts*


----------



## jkingler (Jun 17, 2007)

/puts ice on said nuts to assuage the nethers, in hopes that he will have the presence of mind to finish this series; also, in hopes that his progeny will be equally or even more gifted literary lights


----------



## Robotkiller (Jun 17, 2007)

I'd like to kick up some more discussion on this series. The library gets far to little action nowadays.

Has anybody read the two novellas based on the ASOIAF series? 

I think the titles are The Hedge knight and The Sworn Sword.

Are they worth picking up, and do they add anything of importance to the overall plot?


----------



## Crowe (Jun 17, 2007)

Just started re-reading Game of thrones and god...do I hate Sansa. She must be the character I despise the most in all the books I've read.

Reminds me of Sakura...


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 18, 2007)

I am in halfway of a feast for crows, and so far I have to say that House Dayne of Star Fall Owns men!

By the way anynews on whyen a dance with dragons will come?

About House Dayne.

*Spoiler*: __ 




I think that Jon snow mother was the lady of house dayne that got suicided, I mean hes lover just killed her brother and married another woman and if that wasnt bad hes taking her child.
No wonder why she did jump


----------



## Robotkiller (Jun 18, 2007)

pek the villain said:


> Just started re-reading Game of thrones and god...do I hate Sansa. She must be the character I despise the most in all the books I've read.
> 
> Reminds me of Sakura...



She also reminded me of sakura. She's the stereotypical servile wife character. Martin doesn't try to make her anything more because that's how her character is able to move the plot forwards. But if you think she's an annoying female then it's good that you haven't read The wheel of time series

I can't wait until Baelish's plot is carried out, that crafty pedo bastard is my favorite character, and the reason I look forward to sansa's chapters.


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 18, 2007)

The Kid Tutorial

GRRM will post an updated message, or so he says, the moment he finishes ADWD.  And he's not touching it before then.


Sansa got more tolerable as the books went on.  Er... rather, she was more tolerable starting at the end of A Storm of Swords.  Mainly due to her eyes slowly opening to the realities of the world.

Anyways, I believe the novellas do have interesting tie-ins here and there to the main story, but are mostly separate.  I've heard they're good, but I've never got around to them.

I still want Jon's mother to be 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Lyanna.


 ;_;


Everyone read this series!


----------



## Yakuza (Jun 18, 2007)

No way I never saw this thread before!!

Im super mad fanatic with Game of Thrones series....

Its amazing.... I love it to bit... but I hate Sansa 

Viserys Targarien is the Don... 
I love Eddard Stark too.. 


Gregor Clegane and his bro were also cool


----------



## Robotkiller (Jun 18, 2007)

Dionysus said:


> The Kid Tutorial
> 
> GRRM will post an updated message, or so he says, the moment he finishes ADWD.  And he's not touching it before then.
> 
> ...



I always thought Sansa's naivete was a good source of ironic humor. 

Cersei is also always good for a laugh, she fancied herself so much cleverer than she actually was, and from the way Baelish referred to her at the end of AFFC it sounds like she's going to get offed soon.

*Spoiler*: _I'm really hoping that_ 



Sir Davos didn't bite the big one He was one of my favorite charcters.


----------



## Crowe (Jun 18, 2007)

I know that she gets "smarter" as the time goes but now...god. She first pretends to forget the whole thing between Arya and Joffrey, then she betrays her father and goes to Cersei Lannister and spills out all of his plans, after that when her father have been imprisoned she's still dumb enough to cry for Joffrey's love and that she wants to bare his children etc knowing that her father may be killed by Lannisters, she then takes a huge step over the line and again betrays her family by sending out bullshit letters. 

She should've died first tbh :I


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 18, 2007)

Sansa's the retarded product of her spiteful mother Catelyn. She was always the spoiled child in the Stark family. She acted like she was royalty. Every other Stark child acted normally. I hate Catelyn for how she treated Jon, and I hate Sansa acted like that towards Jon just because her mother did. Her opinions of Jon are mostly her mothers. Form your own, woman. She's also _very_ dumb. Understatement of the year. She went right to Cersei and spilled her fathers plans. So she's more than partially repsonsible for her fathers death. She thought Joffrey was brave, gallant heroic - pretty much the opposite of what this crazy sadistic bastard was. I also loved her blind lustful obsession for Joffrey. She learned her lesson hard. Her lesson should've been harder. God she was stupid, and I hated her chapters.

If anybody should die for committing multiple acts of Stupid as the crime, then Cersei and Sansa are at the top of that list.


And Davos is alive. A PoV character as important as Davos doesn't just die off without us reading it from his perspective. I've also read his spoilers from ADWD. He's alive.


----------



## Dream Brother (Jun 18, 2007)

Amazing series.


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 19, 2007)

Yeah, sansa was pretty retarded, and Cercei aswell, those are probably the characters that piss me the most tought Joffrey was the one I hated the most.

I want to know more about house Dayne, it has always been a very badass house, and the DarkStar rocks! hell yeah! or at least for wath I have read so far In AFFC.

by the way why are there so many pedos in a song of ice and fire?


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 19, 2007)

Guilles said:


> by the way why are there so many pedos in a song of ice and fire?


Realistic representation of past cultural mores.


----------



## Raistlin-sama (Jun 19, 2007)

I have been hearing praises for this series the last 2 years, but only now did I finally pull myself together to read them. I can only say, why the fuck did I wait so long? Oh well, I guess that it at least means less waiting time for me.

Awesome books on every level. I can only add my voice to before-mentioned praise. Where to even start? The characters are great, although I'd have to say that I find Sansa quite annoying as well. But she did get better. And the way these characters through their actions weaves an intricate plot of epic proportions is a joy to read. But then fictional political intrigues and tensions has always been a favorite of mine. And feudal systems are great for conveying these things in an interesting manner.

My personal favorite characters are properly Tyrion, Arya and Daenerys. And to think I also found Dany to be an annoying character in the beginning and almost dreaded her chapters. What an awesome development, because making me like someone I have once decided was annoying is no easy task indeed. But lately Dany is just so...badass. 

Well Tyrion is almost obvious. How can one not love his character and I did from day one.

But even though I have favorites almost everyone are great characters and it is becoming exceedingly rare that I am dreading chapters from certain POVs, which is of course a great achievement in and off itself.

Well a lot of free time (that means time where I should be preparing for my exams...) was properly what I needed to begin this. And oh how I needed it, because these books do not let go. So well, on to reading A Feast For Crows.


----------



## Robotkiller (Jun 19, 2007)

Dionysus said:


> Realistic representation of past cultural mores.



That's a fancy way to say fanservice


----------



## Crowe (Jun 19, 2007)

Dionysus said:


> Realistic representation of past cultural mores.


I actually believe that there is a clear difference between the ages in the series and the ages irl. Bran already grew a beard at 15, Jon seemed to be extremely mature for his age. 

15 year old in the series = 20 irl
10 year old = 15 year old
5 year old = 10 year old


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 20, 2007)

pek the villain said:


> I actually believe that there is a clear difference between the ages in the series and the ages irl. Bran already grew a beard at 15, Jon seemed to be extremely mature for his age.
> 
> 15 year old in the series = 20 irl
> 10 year old = 15 year old
> 5 year old = 10 year old


Bran?  You mean Rob, right?  (Can't remember how Rob's beard was described.)  I think mental maturity was reached faster due to it being required at a younger age.  (I know my grandfather never got past 3rd grade before he had to work.)

I'll not discount that it's a fantasy place with its own rules but... well, it was more acceptable 500 years ago or so.  Since he started out his novels with everyone so young then scrapped the large time skip, characters like Arya will probably act older than would seem logical.


----------



## Robotkiller (Jun 20, 2007)

Dionysus said:


> Bran?  You mean Rob, right?  (Can't remember how Rob's beard was described.)  *I think mental maturity was reached faster due to it being required at a younger age.*  (I know my grandfather never got past 3rd grade before he had to work.)
> 
> I'll not discount that it's a fantasy place with its own rules but... well, it was more acceptable 500 years ago or so.  Since he started out his novels with everyone so young then scrapped the large time skip, characters like Arya will probably act older than would seem logical.



Exactly. Back when the average age of death was in your early thirties you tend to grow up a little faster. Don't forget that the situations that they had to coup with would definitely shape their childhood.


----------



## Gray Wolf (Jun 27, 2007)

Dionysus said:


> [/url]


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 28, 2007)

I just finished a feast for crows and I must say that Darkstar its fucking badass; and I dont know why but I al starting to feel pity for Sansa Stark cause everyone its sexualy harrasing her, I think she could made a nice match with edric storm toght.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I hope Jeyne westerling is indeed carrying the young wolfs son


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 28, 2007)

Gray Wolf said:


> Are one of the fans that believe,
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Well, who else would be the father if 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Lyanna is the mother?


----------



## Robotkiller (Jun 28, 2007)

Suigetsu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I hope Jeyne westerling is indeed carrying the young wolfs son



I seriously doubt it. I mean, the mother did everything in her power to make sure that she didn't have a kid.

Furthermore, it's been a few months since the wedding, wouldn't she have displayed some signs of carrying the child since then?

Not saying it's impossible...just highly improbable.


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 29, 2007)

Not that I think it will mean anything, in a legal sense, but I hope Jon 
*Spoiler*: __ 



gets Robb's will letter


.  Might give Jon some motivation and closure.


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 30, 2007)

Dionysus said:


> Well, who else would be the father if
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I think that looks improvable due to if he was targaryen blood then he would have white hair or other targaryen lineage signs.



I am not saying its not possible but very umprobable, and I still think it would be badass if hes mother was indeed the lady of house dayne, that would mean that he could be the hair to starfall, and besides the Daynes are one of the most badass houses out there.


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 30, 2007)

Suigetsu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you mean improbable.

It's actually VERY probable.  There is a LOT of hints suggesting it.

*Spoiler*: __ 




Off the top of my head: Jon and Arya are said to look alike, and Arya is said to look like Lyanna.  There is the fact that THREE Kingsguards were out guarding Lyanna when they should have been with Rhaegar or the King.  Then, she died in a BED OF BLOOD and made Ned promise something.  Ned later said he's been living with a lie for 14 years, Jon's age.  (Could be to protect Jon, lie so that Robert doesn't want to kill him.)

There is also dreams and visions that hint at it too.  Like one, I think Dany had it, a blue rose (Lyanna's flower) growing out of a giant wall of ice.  Jon's dreams about how he's not wecome in the Stark's crypts (even after Rob "removed" his taint of bastardy--I assume the spirit realm would have consented then, if he was a Stark bastard).  Jon's gut feeling is that he'll never be a Stark even if a king were to remove his illegitimacy.  There is the story that Meera tells Bran, about the young dragon giving the crown of roses not to his bride (or bride to be), but to the young wolf girl (Rhaegar was wooing Lyanna).  I believe Dany also heard a prophecy about her having three heads to the dragon.  She's one, who are the other two?

Any why would he have silver hair and violet eyes?  (Ashara Dayne had violet eyes, by the way.)  Dark hair and eyes can be dominant.  I believe Rhaegar's other kids with Elia had dark hair and eyes.  The Targaryen's kept their appearances by i*c*st.  Keeping the blood pure, as they said.




This is off the top of my head.  There is more in the books.  Just like there is some evidence for the others.  But I really don't picture Eddard cheating on Catelyn, even if he didn't know her.  He loved his brother too much to do that to his name (since she was meant for Brandon).  (Jon wouldn't really be the heir to Starfall, as rights generally go father-son, but I guess he'd have a claim if he wanted to...)


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 30, 2007)

Now that I ve heard your point  I must say you left me pretty convinced, Now I think that hes a 
*Spoiler*: __ 



targaryen bastard aswell.




Note:
*Spoiler*: __ 



I think I readed somewhere in the books that The Dayne lady and eddard had a probably relationship during the tourney of, well dunno the name but jumping of the tower just because of hes brother died seems waay to much for me tought.
I think that your theory its better tought.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 1, 2007)

Suigetsu said:


> Note:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, Martin could be misleading people.  Anything is possible.   To me, it really just makes more sense for Jon to be a Targaryen bastard.  It resolves the mystery of Ned's promise and gives a legacy to the Lyanna and Rhaegar incident.  Some people hate the idea and want something completely unexpected.

The only remaining survivor of the Tower of Joy fight, Howland Reed, will likely be the perfect source of this information.  He has been mysteriously absent from the story thus far.  As will Wylla.  She might know more too.

If this is true about Jon, then it would have him in the centre of the reason why the Targaryens were dethroned.  (Or, rather the catalyst.)




EvilBible.com

^^^ this link goes over a lot of the evidence.

Edit:  And here's something I just noticed in _A Feast for Crows_: 
*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Cersei Lannister said:
			
		

> If this bastard boy is truly his father's son, he will not suspect a thing.  Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs.



This is Cersei and her council of nitwits planning to off the new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  We will see whether Jon suspects anything.  (I imagine he will.)  This could be Martin dropping a hint about uncertain parentage.  Cersei sees Jon as Eddard's son, the son of a foolish man of blind honour.


----------



## Freiza (Jul 5, 2007)

i have read a bit of this book but i dont remember though....


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Jul 14, 2007)

*predictions on the series .........*

who do u think should be the other two heads of the Dragons ? I cant decide on anyone .... all the characters are too good.
I also cant wait for the three (main) surivours of the Stark family (Sansa, Arya and Bran) to get meet each other. That would be awesome. the way i see things ......

*Spoiler*: __ 



Tyrion will meet Daenyrs and become her main councellor in the Game of Thrones. Sansa will learn her trade from the Littlefinger  and bran and Arya will be the two linchpins on which house stark mounts its challenge to the Iron throne ... and it will be a battle between these two ..... or according to the prophecies, these two houses will join together to fight at the wall ....... but i really would like Tyrion+Daenyrs+Dragons Vs Sansa+Arya+Bran


----------



## Freiza (Jul 16, 2007)

I have the feeling Arya is going to be uber in the end.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 2, 2008)

Just started reading the series. I'm enjoying it so far. Switching characters helps the flow of the story though a bit to much introduced at a time, lol.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Feb 5, 2008)

Read on ...... you will love it. Even though the author is a lazy bastard 

GRRM updated his blog ..... saying he will update it once he is finished with the book ...

Like i havent seen that trick before 

here is the link :

Ghost Rider respect thread.


----------



## Nakor (Feb 5, 2008)

yeah. the last update before this said the same thing. i didn't know about him rotating chapters from the new book on the site. i will have to start checking them out.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Feb 7, 2008)

lol, they are just three chapters ..... 

I wont be satisfied with those morsels 

Get the full book out dammit   ....


----------



## Nakor (Feb 7, 2008)

'REDHAIRED' SHANKS said:


> lol, they are just three chapters .....


3 chapters is something to wet our appetites with til the book comes.


----------



## Dream Brother (Feb 7, 2008)

I had no clue that he was posting chapters on his site -- I just read the Jon one, great stuff. His writing skills really are top notch.


----------



## Robotkiller (Feb 7, 2008)

^
Too bad he writes at the speed of a crippled, autistic monkey.


----------



## Dream Brother (Feb 7, 2008)

Robotkiller said:


> ^
> Too bad he writes at the speed of a crippled, autistic monkey.



The glass is half empty, eh?


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Feb 8, 2008)

I agree with Robotkiller on this one ..... 

It is just irresponsible .... he writes well, but he doesnt have the whole thing in his head. 

This is gonna go just like Wheel of Time


----------



## Saruto (Feb 24, 2008)

*Anyone here read George R.R. Martin's ASOIAF?*

I just recently got into reading them and I've just finished A Feast For Crows...awesome book. So...topic!!!


----------



## Daenerys (Feb 24, 2008)

You can tell from my username that I believe George R.R. Martin is awesome. He is my favorite author in his genre, regardless of how much my brother tries to bully me into believing Robert Jordan is the best. 


 I say continue till the end, you will be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Dream Brother (Feb 24, 2008)

/edit because thread was merged.


----------



## Crowe (Feb 24, 2008)

Fanclub btw:
Freija is Chillin'


----------



## Saruto (Feb 24, 2008)

Also I think it's pretty much canon that 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon Snow is really Jon Targaryen by Rhaegar and Lyanna. I mean way to make it like...obvious GRRM.


----------



## Sho (Feb 24, 2008)

He looks like Ned, just like Arya, so I don't think so.  Plus he lacks the eyes.


----------



## Saruto (Feb 24, 2008)

Yea, but the deal breaker is 
*Spoiler*: __ 



why the hell were THREE Kingsguard guarding Lyanna? It makes sense if they were guarding the last male heir to the throne. Since Dany hasn't been born/is being born. The whole bed of blood thing? The fact that Ned says he only told ONE lie his entire life? The fact that he laments Robert's hatred of Targaryens _since they really didn't do anything wrong._ Other than Aerys that is. The freakin title of the series. Ice = Jon, Fire = Dany. Both of them are shaping up to be main characters more or less.


 Jon is definitely more than he appears.

Also on an unrelated note, why does half of Dorne look like Targaryens? Edric Dayne, Darkstar (awesome moniker btw), Ashara Dayne...actually it's just the Daynes really. I thought the Martells married the dragons not the Daynes.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Feb 25, 2008)

Well, let GRRM come out with the next book. I may think about rereading the last one then.

Steven Erikson is the best author in Fantasy right now


----------



## isanon (Feb 25, 2008)

> Anyone else read this series (besides Arilou, who I know is a fan)? I really hope so, because it is, hands down, the best fantasy series being published today, and if it maintains its current brilliance, is a possible contender for best fantasy series of all time.
> 
> Think of all those staples of fantasy: the destined hero, the princess who loves the peasant, the wise old magical mentor, powerful wizards, weak hordes of monstrous enemies, dark lords,



thats how long i rasd berore i stoped ...maby i ought to finnish the first book before entering this thread again. ( i have only read like 30 pages in the first book)


----------



## isanon (Feb 25, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> The glass is half empty, eh?


the glass is half empty if it is being drained and half full if its being filled


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Feb 26, 2008)

well, I agree that GRRM has a good story and is probably the best in terms of creating Characters. 

You will probably enjoy the first three books thoroughly .... the fourth book had a lot of filler IMO


----------



## Saruto (Feb 26, 2008)

But that's cause he split the books in half. The Brienne chapters were ass boring though. The only good POV's were Jaime because he has a freakin golden hand, Cersei because I like to laugh at her idiocy, and Ser Hyle Hunt. He's the man.


----------



## Batman (Feb 26, 2008)

Everything about the craken wars was boring as shit. I _almost_ skipped those chapters every time.


----------



## Nakor (Feb 26, 2008)

after reading jon's chapter on grrm's site...i am soo pumped for the 5th book. 

i didn't think the craken wars was boring...but it wasn't the most exciting thing about the book.


----------



## Saruto (Feb 27, 2008)

The most exciting part of the book was when Cersei fucked Taena


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Feb 27, 2008)

Batman said:


> Everything about the craken wars was boring as shit. I _almost_ skipped those chapters every time.



I didnt mind Craken too much  .....Btw, did you read the 24th chapter of the second/third book ?
It has Theon Greyjoy's POV and he meets up with this awesome girl ... 
That was the most exciting part of that book 



Saruto said:


> The most exciting part of the book was when Cersei fucked Taena



Qutoed for truth


----------



## Dionysus (Feb 27, 2008)

Sho said:


> He looks like Ned, just like Arya, so I don't think so.  Plus he lacks the eyes.


Jon and Arya look alike.  Arya is stated to look like Lyanna.  That's how it was presented.  I can't remember is Rhaegar's and Elia's children had violet eyes.  (Ashara Dayne had violet eyes...)  I think the Targaryen traits were kept for so many generations due to i*c*st.

Anyways, there is lots of evidence given over the books to support Jon being a Targaryen bastard.  We'll find out in a decade.


----------



## FoolyCooly (Feb 27, 2008)

Saruto said:


> But that's cause he split the books in half. The Brienne chapters were ass boring though. The only good POV's were Jaime because he has a freakin golden hand, Cersei because I like to laugh at her idiocy, and Ser Hyle Hunt. He's the man.



Don't forget the Arya chapters, all 2 or 3 of them. Through the entire book I was hoping that the next chapter would be an Arya chapter. She is probably my favorite character.

And I'm assuming or at least hoping that there was a point to Brienne's storyline that will be revealed later, because it would have been a waste of paper if there wasn't.


----------



## Batman (Feb 28, 2008)

I enjoyed the Sansa chapters as well. Little Finger's a trip.


----------



## FoolyCooly (Feb 28, 2008)

I find Sansa annoying, though I do think she has the potential to be a good character if Littlefinger continues to train her in the ways of devious scheming and plotting. Though I'm pretty sure he has no intention of letting her off of his leash, she's just another piece in his game.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Feb 28, 2008)

FoolyCooly said:


> Don't forget the Arya chapters, all 2 or 3 of them. Through the entire book I was hoping that the next chapter would be an Arya chapter. She is probably my favorite character.
> 
> And I'm assuming or at least hoping that there was a point to Brienne's storyline that will be revealed later, because it would have been a waste of paper if there wasn't.



Arya is my fav. character too .....


----------



## Nakor (Feb 28, 2008)

i hope there is more arya chapters in the next book. im not sure why they were even in the 4th book since it dealt with the chacactors that were on westeros and she wasn't...


----------



## Dionysus (Feb 28, 2008)

fireball said:


> i hope there is more arya chapters in the next book. im not sure why they were even in the 4th book since it dealt with the chacactors that were on westeros and she wasn't...


There will be.


----------



## Saruto (Feb 28, 2008)

Arya's chapters are pretty awesome I agree. She's training to be a ninja! Sansa is starting to be a little better since Littlefinger is schooling her to be ebbbbbiiiiiiilllllll. I wonder what his true game is. Also when he said the "3 queens" Did he mean Cersei, Margaery, and Myrcella? Or Cersei, Margaery and Danaerys?


----------



## FoolyCooly (Feb 29, 2008)

Saruto said:


> Arya's chapters are pretty awesome I agree. She's training to be a ninja! Sansa is starting to be a little better since Littlefinger is schooling her to be ebbbbbiiiiiiilllllll. I wonder what his true game is. Also when he said the "3 queens" Did he mean Cersei, Margaery, and Myrcella? Or Cersei, Margaery and Danaerys?


He could have meant Margaery, Myrcella, and Dany since he knew that Cersei would be out of the picture fairly quickly.


----------



## Batman (Mar 1, 2008)

He wasn't talking about Myrcella. Just the three publicly known queens.


----------



## Dionysus (Mar 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> He wasn't talking about Myrcella. Just the three publicly known queens.


Dany isn't quite publicly known.  That's part of Littlefinger's plan.  He knows there is another player across the globe who will be joining soon.  Whereas Cersei and others have no clue.  (My memory is blurry, but I distinctly remember her ignoring the warnings about Dany.  Also trying to assassinate Jon.  What a bitch.)

It's a possibility he does know what the Dornish would do, having the female--the oldest--and their laws about succession being gender neutral.  Having said that, Myrcella's claim was basically ended once Dany's existence was made known to that other Dornish woman whose name is escaping me.  The heiress to Dorn.  (They must now hide the Darkstar's assassination attempt from King's Landing.)


----------



## Saruto (Mar 8, 2008)

Littlefinger sort of reminds me of Orochimaru in that he thrives in chaos and turmoil. Also, I believe he has a plan that is deliciously evil and will spread it wings like the bat of Lothston in either ADwD or The Winds of Winter.


----------



## Dream Brother (Mar 8, 2008)

I like Oro, but Littlefinger is _far_ smarter than him.


----------



## Moses (Mar 8, 2008)

Personally, I've never even heard of this series. I'd be willing to look it over, though. It cetainly looks very, very interesting ^_^


----------



## Dream Brother (Mar 8, 2008)

Moses said:


> Personally, I've never even heard of this series. I'd be willing to look it over, though. It cetainly looks very, very interesting ^_^



Definitely, go for it. In my opinion it’s the best fantasy series running at the moment.

A couple of people will disagree with me and go for Erikson or Lynch, but I think Martin is at the top of the pack. I tend to love a focus on character psyche and their gradual fleshing out/emotional development as events unfold rather than the ‘big picture’, and I think he’s the best at exploring this out of all the current fantasy authors.


----------



## Moses (Mar 8, 2008)

^Wow, thanks. Yeah, really sounds awesome.


----------



## Saruto (Mar 9, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> Definitely, go for it. In my opinion it?s the best fantasy series running at the moment.
> 
> A couple of people will disagree with me and go for Erikson or Lynch, but I think Martin is at the top of the pack. I tend to love a focus on character psyche and their gradual fleshing out/emotional development as events unfold rather than the ?big picture?, and I think he?s the best at exploring this out of all the current fantasy authors.



Definitely. I mean, who else could make a dwarf the most badass character ever?


----------



## Saruto (Apr 11, 2008)

So is Dance confirmed for Sept. 30th?


----------



## Batman (Apr 11, 2008)

Was the information released on his site?


----------



## Saruto (Apr 11, 2008)

No, it's the Bantam publisher date. I read it was arbitrarily picked though. I cried.


----------



## Draffut (Apr 11, 2008)

Well, on recommendation by my brother (who is through book 4) I picked this up last month, and finished the first book.  Frankly, it was excellent.  most refreshing was that no charecter is immune to death (Except Bran, Jon, and Dany I just can't see any of them dieng before the end of the last book), though I wish a few of them had been.

Anyhow, after enjpying it, in my wait till I could pick up book #2, I went Wikipedia-surfing....  and read about stuff lke the Red Wedding, and Joffrey.  now that I actually have book #2, I cannot find the will to read much of it, since the Starks (the coolest set of charecters, cept maybe Tyrion) are falling apart at the seams.

So after being ridiculed by my brother for looking at spoilers, I am sitting here in a dilemia tryign to decided if it is worth it.  I knowthe series is titles with "Ice and Fire" (Starks and Dany) but I dont know how he will be able to pull that together for a decent final confrontation between the two in only 3 more books.

Ah well, i'll get around to it eventually.  maybe plow through the next 3 books right beforethe 5th comes out, and keep going so I cannot spoil mysef again.


----------



## Gray Wolf (Apr 11, 2008)

I liked Areo Hotah's chapter, I think he is an interesting character.


----------



## Saruto (Apr 12, 2008)

*^OMFG GREY WIND IS POSTING ON NF!?!?!/*


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Apr 12, 2008)

wait, is Dance of the Dragons finally releasing  ?? 

does anyone have links/details ??

the wait has been too long


----------



## Draffut (Apr 13, 2008)

'REDHAIRED' SHANKS said:


> wait, is Dance of the Dragons finally releasing  ??
> 
> does anyone have links/details ??
> 
> the wait has been too long



Yes, the very end of September.  I'll hunt down a link for you shortly.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Apr 13, 2008)

Draffut said:


> Yes, the very end of September.  I'll hunt down a link for you shortly.



Thanks a bunch  
Finally, we can get our hands on Dance of the Dragons. I have two books to wait for this year then  
Dance of the Dragons by GRRM and Toll the hounds by Steven Erikson


----------



## Batman (Apr 13, 2008)

So there is a date!! All right.


----------



## Nakor (Apr 13, 2008)

Draffut said:


> Yes, the very end of September.  I'll hunt down a link for you shortly.



where did you see that? i just looked on his website and I don't see anything about it being finished or a specific date of release.


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 13, 2008)

So still on book 1, i know i'm a slow as shit reader  But I'm still enjoying it


----------



## Dionysus (Apr 13, 2008)

Yes.  The book is NOT finished.  When he finishes it, he will announce it here: *The Kid Tutorial*

We'll (have the possibility to) know after his wife and publishers.


----------



## Draffut (Apr 13, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> Yes.  The book is NOT finished.  When he finishes it, he will announce it here: *The Kid Tutorial*
> 
> We'll (have the possibility to) know after his wife and publishers.



Despite his promise, he rarely updates it for anything, so I am not holding my breath.


----------



## Nakor (Apr 13, 2008)

Draffut said:


> Despite his promise, he rarely updates it for anything, so I am not holding my breath.



I think he will update it. It is a pretty big deal if he does finish it.

Based on his last entry in the update, there is a good chance that the book could be in stores by the end of this year. That is all I am hoping for.


----------



## Dionysus (Apr 14, 2008)

He doesn't update it anymore since he's sick of updating.  The next one will be "FINISHED".  He wouldn't hold back the fact that he's finished.  He's the kind of author that would want everyone as pumped as he would be.  Also, publishers and book sellers are notorious for giving guesstimate dates for book releases.

He continues to give updates on the novel in his blog.  Should be some months before he's finished.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Apr 14, 2008)

I am sick of waiting ... as are most of you guys i guess. 

I really hate his balls for stuffing the fourth book with filler and still managing to delay the fifth book for so long 

Thanks for the effort Daffut ....


----------



## Nakor (Apr 14, 2008)

'REDHAIRED' SHANKS said:


> I really hate his balls for stuffing the fourth book with filler and still managing to delay the fifth book for so long



I don't think the 4th book was stuffed with filler. it just wasn't stuffed with jon, dany, tyrion, or bran...which is what we all want to read about.


----------



## Batman (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm not quite as mad cause I JUST read the books last year. Then one of my gf's bought me the first 3 books on cd's. So I'm still good to go. 

I've still got to find the Malazan series, if I can ever get my ass over to the local library.


----------



## Saruto (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm going to read the Sword of Truth series for the lulz until Dance comes. Book is great for lulzy reading. I just finished Blood of the Fold, lol.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Apr 15, 2008)

fireball said:


> I don't think the 4th book was stuffed with filler. *it just wasn't stuffed with jon, dany, tyrion, or bran*...which is what we all want to read about.



That is why I called it filler 

I am not averse to new characters being introduced every book. I rate Malazan book of the Fallen higher than ASoLaF and that series introduces new civilizations, never mind a few characters, with new books.


----------



## Batman (Apr 15, 2008)

'REDHAIRED' SHANKS said:


> That is why I called it filler
> 
> I am not averse to new characters being introduced every book. I rate Malazan book of the Fallen higher than ASoLaF and that series introduces new civilizations, never mind a few characters, with new books.



lol I agree with you to a point. The dornish stuff was alright, but the kracken wars were dull as hell to me. I was wishing for Jon and Tyrion and danny.




EDIT: Does anyone else think that Loras was gay for Renly? He was talking about his first love, and I thought that if it's not Margery, which it might be, its Renly.


----------



## Nakor (Apr 15, 2008)

Batman said:


> lol I agree with you to a point. The dornish stuff was alright, but the kracken wars were dull as hell to me. I was wishing for Jon and Tyrion and danny.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i do agree. the kraken wars were very boring. i did enjoy the dornish chapters though. thought they were pretty interesting.

I do. I do. I thought it was pretty obvious that was what g.r.r.m was going for with those two.


----------



## Gray Wolf (Apr 16, 2008)

I thought most of the Greyjoy chapters were boring, although I did think Euron was an interesting character.


----------



## Saruto (Apr 17, 2008)

Batman said:


> lol I agree with you to a point. The dornish stuff was alright, but the kracken wars were dull as hell to me. I was wishing for Jon and Tyrion and danny.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Loras and Renly were confirmed to be gay. GRRM posted it on his blog I think. Loras was uke.


----------



## Nakor (Apr 26, 2008)

*Psyren volume 1 up for pre-oder on Amazon.co.jp*

Just saw this on amazon!!!!! I looked at his blog, and the ice and fire update on his website but there weren't any updates on it there. maybe this is just a tenative announcement?

edit: i am reading his centerstage responses in the B&N book club(The Video) and I thought I would quote this, it is very very true. But also hilarious how he says it.



			
				George R.R. Martin said:
			
		

> I do get occasional letters from readers who object to the sexual content in the books... but oddly enough, no one seems to object to the violence.  It is a sad commentary on American society that there are people who will be outraged by a description of a penis entering a vagina, but not troubled at all by a description of an axe entering a head.


----------



## Batman (Apr 26, 2008)

Downn with violence! Up with sex! ^^



			
				Saruto said:
			
		

> Loras and Renly were confirmed to be gay. GRRM posted it on his blog I think. Loras was uke.



lol. Glad to know I was correct about what I'm sure was 6 year old news.


----------



## Nakor (Jul 26, 2008)

Thought I'd revive this. 

It seems A Dance with Dragons will likely not be released on Sept 30th. He was supposed to finish it in June for it to be released that date, but as expected he still hasn't finished the book. 

He is in freakin Spain now promoting himself, so he probably isn't working on the book now either.

I am rereading A Game of Thrones and I must say, it has renewed my love for the series. The author still pisses me off though. haha.


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

lol I think he probably put it aside to give himself some distance from the story. He might have been growing to hate it himself. Here's hoping for him to get over it and get back to work.  . . .


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 30, 2008)

I sent an email to the guy, asking some questions.  He answered them then pimped some of his other works in response to my support for his slow pace.  (This was just after a blog entry about "fans" harrying him.)  What a huckster.


----------



## Pan-on (Jul 30, 2008)

I bought his short story collection, or one of them at least, iv not had a chance to look at it properly yet, seems like it has a diverse range of stuff.


----------



## Draffut (Jul 30, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> I sent an email to the guy, asking some questions.  He answered them then pimped some of his other works in response to my support for his slow pace.  (This was just after a blog entry about "fans" harrying him.)  What a huckster.



I am just suprised you got a response.


----------



## Felix (Jul 30, 2008)

Finished reading A Storm of Swords.
I'm pretty pissed with Robb's closure 

He won the battles yet he lost the war...
Reluctant in reading A Feast for Crows, I guess I'll wait for A Dance with Dragons and read them both


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 30, 2008)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> I am just suprised you got a response.


Took several months.  I imagine he has quite a full inbox.  He responded before he hired an assistant to help him with emails and things, so I'm fairly certain it's actually him.

Too bad I lost the email when my laptop broke.


----------



## Nakor (Jul 30, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> Took several months.  I imagine he has quite a full inbox.  He responded before he hired an assistant to help him with emails and things, so I'm fairly certain it's actually him.
> 
> Too bad I lost the email when my laptop broke.



Bummer. I was about to ask you about it


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 11, 2008)




----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 11, 2008)

Saruto said:


> Loras and Renly were confirmed to be gay. GRRM posted it on his blog I think. Loras was uke.



lulz, I did not think about that. Maybe because deep in my perverted mind I was hoping for more i*c*st lolz


----------



## Draffut (Oct 11, 2008)

Lol, I was just thinking about this 2 days ago, and went to check.  Still it's a "Hopefully it will be out by April" projected date.  Quite frustrating.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 11, 2008)

Haha. that site is great. i'm going to spend some time reading it today.


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 11, 2008)

I've spent four years writing the same book.(Still not even closed to finished) So I could understand if he didn't say it was practically fucking finished.


----------



## martryn (Oct 23, 2008)

I've decided to start posting in this thread.  I'm a third of the way through book three and loving the series so far.  I guess I'll have a bit of time to read other things while I wait on book five.  Eager to join future discussions, as I'll be caught up with the series very, very soon.


----------



## Nae'blis (Oct 23, 2008)

I read it, found it kind of interesting but not something I would consider a favorite. My brothers been trying to convince me otherwise for a while now.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 23, 2008)

i like how it feels more real to me and how almost no character is safe from dying. i also like how magic is very rare and sort of like a fairy tale to the population.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 24, 2008)

martryn said:


> I'm a third of the way through book three and loving the series so far.  I guess I'll have a bit of time to read other things while I wait on book five.  Eager to join future discussions, as I'll be caught up with the series very, very soon.





Nae'blis said:


> I read it, found it kind of interesting but not something I would consider a favorite.


How far into the series did you read?


----------



## martryn (Oct 24, 2008)

Yeah, that's what really distinguishes it from other fantasy series I've read.  The books have a gritty realism to them.  The characters are readily identifiable, and even the bad guys aren't really bad, just working toward opposite goals, a lot of the time. 

I can't really say that I'm a bigger fan of Song of Ice and Fire than I am the Wheel of Time.  To me they're in totally different genres.  It's like comparing either of them to Catch-22 or the works of Murakami.


----------



## Freija (Oct 24, 2008)

Well, the biggest reason I like and sometimes dislike ASoIF is the complete lack of plot protection, I love it cause it adds much more realism, hate it because, well Eddard 


Mostly love it though.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 24, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Well, the biggest reason I like and sometimes dislike ASoIF is the complete lack of plot protection, I love it cause it adds much more realism, hate it because, well Eddard
> 
> 
> Mostly love it though.



i liked eddard, but in that type of world his fate would certainly be death when he plays the game of thrones. 

. i love how i just used the title of the first book.


----------



## martryn (Oct 24, 2008)

Well, halfway through the third book now.  It's interesting because so far no one character has come out as being centered in the book yet.  A Game of Thrones seemed centered around what was happening with Eddard, and A Clash of Kings seemed centered around what was going on with Tyrion, this book doesn't yet have it's "main" character.  Maybe Arya will see more action in this book.  She seemed to get a lot of time early in the second book, but then sorta disappeared in the second half.


----------



## Dream Brother (Oct 24, 2008)

He needs to get that next book out. Been bloody ages.

I do love this series, though. He's a terrific writer.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 24, 2008)

I read the first three books, loved them but its kinda hard to remember whats going on. I'll get the fourth book sometime. My favorite character is Jon


----------



## martryn (Oct 24, 2008)

I'm not really having any trouble remembering what's happening or who is who.  With such a large cast, you'd think it'd be hard to do, but I'm able to keep things in line pretty easy.  The only people I get confused on are members of the Kingsguard.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 24, 2008)

I haven't read them in awhile, and i read so much i get books mixed up. I have tried rereading the series, but i tend to stop and read something else. I kinda can remember where all the characters are at the end of the third book, but can't remember whats happened to them before hand.


----------



## martryn (Oct 24, 2008)

You can always check out the wiki.  That's what I did with the Wheel of Time when I took a three year break before starting book 8.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 24, 2008)

Yeah i should probably do that. It will be a lot faster then rereading the books.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> i liked eddard, but in that type of world his fate would certainly be death when he plays the game of thrones.
> 
> . i love how i just used the title of the first book.


Not just the title, but a saying 


martryn said:


> Well, halfway through the third book now.  It's interesting because so far no one character has come out as being centered in the book yet.  A Game of Thrones seemed centered around what was happening with Eddard, and A Clash of Kings seemed centered around what was going on with Tyrion, this book doesn't yet have it's "main" character.  Maybe Arya will see more action in this book.  She seemed to get a lot of time early in the second book, but then sorta disappeared in the second half.


I thought Storm of Swords(My favourite of the series) was centered around Jon. But you said you were halfway you might notice this later on.



Dream Brother said:


> He needs to get that next book out. Been bloody ages.
> 
> I do love this series, though. He's a terrific writer.


Indeed, and what's even worse he hasn't even given us an update about his writing in "not a blog" for months 



~Yoruichi~ said:


> I read the first three books, loved them but its kinda hard to remember whats going on. I'll get the fourth book sometime. My favorite character is Jon


The fourth book may start very slow but you'll ease into it(the fourth book and the fifth upcoming were to be one book, but he had to split it up, and put the north and the other countries mostly in the fifth book and took the rest of westeros mostly in the fourth) it does however give you many new loveable characters <3



martryn said:


> I'm not really having any trouble remembering what's happening or who is who.  With such a large cast, you'd think it'd be hard to do, but I'm able to keep things in line pretty easy.  The only people I get confused on are members of the Kingsguard.


That's another thing I love, I just melted all the information down in my head, I remember it all even being so long since I read the books (a year, re-read a few chapters by themselves but not the books in entirety).


~Yoruichi~ said:


> I haven't read them in awhile, and i read so much i get books mixed up. I have tried rereading the series, but i tend to stop and read something else. I kinda can remember where all the characters are at the end of the third book, but can't remember whats happened to them before hand.


I suggest a re-read =) or wikipedia.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> The fourth book may start very slow but you'll ease into it(the fourth book and the fifth upcoming were to be one book, but he had to split it up, and put the north and the other countries mostly in the fifth book and took the rest of westeros mostly in the fourth) it does however give you many new loveable characters <3
> 
> I suggest a re-read =) or wikipedia.



Yeah, i remember reading about that. There are certain characters left out, right? I think it was Jon, Dany, and someone else...

I'll probably do wiki- the books are to long to re-read when i have school


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

It's not that they're left out, it's that they have like a chapter or two, or so because that book focuses mainly on characters south of the north  which is why ADWD will be a pure win book


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> It's not that they're left out, it's that they have like a chapter or two, or so because that book focuses mainly on characters south of the north  which is why ADWD will be a pure win book



YES! all of my favorite characters are going to be in the 5th book. its soo exciting. which has made waiting for it, just awful.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Yeah, the wait is so much worse because it includes only favourite characters


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

i think jon snow is going to kick some serious ass. 

Dany's will be great too, especially if she starts planning an invasion.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

I really don't know what the problem is.  I think he lost a lot of the passion he had for the series, but that's just a guess.  He has so many projects on the go that it seems he wants to distract himself from the "big one" for a while.  He was partially finished ADWD when book 4 came out since he originally wrote AFFC with ADWD chapters in it.

I don't mind waiting.  (So long as he doesn't die before finishing.  I'm really glad I got tired of WoT.)  I just find grrrm.livejournal funny for the rants.  Similar incredulous thoughts that passed through my head too.

Man, it really has been years.  I've been discussing the "Jon is a Targaryen bastard" and other such theories for ages.   Seems like a past life.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

I wonder how all this will end, GRRM already said that he was planning 
*Spoiler*: _Very loose spoiler about one of the future books_ 



to get all the still living POV characters together in the end meeting each other.... How would that go, Jon can't die, because... well the fans would ransack him 

So, will said meeting take place at the wall, or has the wall burnt down or something ? Or did he somehow magically get relieved from duty ? 

I believe the song of Ice and Fire has something to do with dragons and the wall 





As for ADWD, I wonder how it'll make Jon look, and nonetheless IS ARYA PERMANENTLY BLIND?




> I really don't know what the problem is. I think he lost a lot of the passion he had for the series, but that's just a guess. He has so many projects on the go that it seems he wants to distract himself from the "big one" for a while. He was partially finished ADWD when book 4 came out since he originally wrote AFFC with ADWD chapters in it.
> 
> I don't mind waiting. (So long as he doesn't die before finishing. I'm really glad I got tired of WoT.) I just find grrrm.livejournal funny for the rants. Similar incredulous thoughts that passed through my head too.
> 
> Man, it really has been years. I've been discussing the "Jon is a Targaryen bastard" and other such theories for ages. Seems like a past life.


If anything I doubt Jon is a bastard, a forced wedding could've taken place...


As for GRRM I also feel he's lost his love for the series, I wish someone would ask him about this, because... well 3 years =/ And it was set for release... actually a few days ago in the start of this year, but was delayed... yet again.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> I wonder how all this will end, GRRM already said that he was planning
> *Spoiler*: _Very loose spoiler about one of the future books_
> 
> 
> ...



i always figured jon would leave the wall at some point, not leave it as stop being the commander, but leave it as going to get help. that he would end up at kings landing at some point later in the story.

i'm with you on the meaning of song of ice and fire.



> As for ADWD, I wonder how it'll make Jon look, and nonetheless IS ARYA PERMANENTLY BLIND?


jon will be win
why would she be blind? i forget what happened.



> If anything I doubt Jon is a bastard, a forced wedding could've taken place...


i don't think he is a bastard. i don't think the wedding would have been forced either. it was implied that they loved each other so it probably happened secretly. 

the chapter where eddard is remembering what happened when he went to rescue lyanna(sp?) is sooo fucking good. the sword of morning and the white bull would fuck up any of the current kings guards. seriously, go reread it now, you won't be disappointed.



> As for GRRM I also feel he's lost his love for the series, I wish someone would ask him about this, because... well 3 years =/ And it was set for release... actually a few days ago in the start of this year, but was delayed... yet again.


i think so too, and its sad because its by far his best work. i wish he would stop with all these wild cards books.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> i always figured jon would leave the wall at some point, not leave it as stop being the commander, but leave it as going to get help. that he would end up at kings landing at some point later in the story.
> 
> i'm with you on the meaning of song of ice and fire.


True, but as the Lord Commander it's even harder for him to leave the wall.


> jon will be win
> why would she be blind? i forget what happened.


She turned back to Arya Stark and killed a person, the "priest" had her drink some milk, she woke up the next morning blind... that's where we left her.





> i don't think he is a bastard. i don't think the wedding would have been forced either. it was implied that they loved each other so it probably happened secretly.


Well, that is true, and I agree to that, I believe she went there of free will, that Jon is a trueblood Targaryen and Stark (Ice and Fire anyone ?) but this is just speculation unfortunantly.





> the chapter where eddard is remembering what happened when he went to rescue lyanna(sp?) is sooo fucking good. the sword of morning and the white bull would fuck up any of the current kings guards. seriously, go reread it now, you won't be disappointed.


I remember it  how could I ever forget  and what's even better is that Jaime even admits it, him with all his arrogance says "The Sword of Morning could've slain this kings guard by himself





> i think so too, and its sad because its by far his best work. i wish he would stop with all these wild cards books.


Agreed, he has too many side projects, while I'm sure they're good, he needs to think more of the people he's kept waiting for 3 years, the ones eagerly attending the conventions he goes to, the ones who buy his books, post and visit his site and buy his merchandise. =/


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

> I thought Storm of Swords(My favourite of the series) was centered around Jon. But you said you were halfway you might notice this later on.



Yeah, like I said, A Clash of Kings seemed centered around what was going on with Arya, but she was absent in most of the second half of the book. 



> Man, it really has been years. I've been discussing the "Jon is a Targaryen bastard" and other such theories for ages.



Yeah, I'm banking on the theory that Jon is the son of Lyanna and... was it Rhaegar?  Being only on the third book, I'm not sure if Lyanna's secret to Eddard has been revealed yet, but I'm thinking that might be it.  But who else would know so the readers would find out..?



> seriously, go reread it now, you won't be disappointed.



Oh, that must be in the first book.  Does anyone know the page number?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

There is only one more person who knows it, but he's yet to be introduced (like, talked or even seen) in the books.


The small crannogman who was with Eddard at the time, the only one else who left the tower.


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

> The small crannogman who was with Eddard at the time, the only one else who left the tower.



What?  Does that have something to do with the story Meera told Bran when they were in the mountains traveling to the wall?  Man, I need to read more, I guess.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

Meera and Jojen's dad.  He was at the Tower of Joy with Eddard.  Only he and Eddard survived to see Lyanna on her bed of blood.

Howland!  That's it.

Meera's story only touches on Rhaegar wooing Lyanna.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Hmm, it seems to me that I have to re-read, I know what you're talking about, but not precisely.



> Meera and Jojen's dad. He was at the Tower of Joy with Eddard. Only he and Eddard survived to see Lyanna on her bed of blood.


Didn't they discuss that event ? I mean Meera and Bran.


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

Howland Reed?  So, where do I have to go to get that story?  Have I already read it but passed it by as being inconsequential at the time?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

We haven't gotten Howland Reed to tell the truth, but Eddard talks about him and Howland Reed being the only survivors, and the only people to witness Lyannas last request in the first Eddard chapter.


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

I'ma gonna readcha now.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

You do that , I'm going to start re-reading A Clash of Kings now =)


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> It's not that they're left out, it's that they have like a chapter or two, or so because that book focuses mainly on characters south of the north  which is why ADWD will be a pure win book



Oh ok. Well, i guess as long as they are somewhat in it it'll be okay because i heard all my favorite characters weren't going to be in it.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

I don't think Meera mentions the Tower of Joy at all.  Eddard recalled it in the first book.

Meera's story is about the Eddard meeting Ashara Dayne and the tourney.  It happened before Lyanna was abducted.  They skipped over what happens to the wolf maiden when Bran asks.

This is mildly spoilery for Martryn, so I'll stop.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

~Yoruichi~ said:


> Oh ok. Well, i guess as long as they are somewhat in it it'll be okay because i heard all my favorite characters weren't going to be in it.



They'll appear, very briefly 


However new loveable characters will appear, not to mention that Sansa 
*Spoiler*: _not really a spoiler -_-;_ 



is starting to redeem herself


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> True, but as the Lord Commander it's even harder for him to leave the wall.


true. maybe the wall will fall and he will have to retreat to get help to retake it. 


> She turned back to Arya Stark and killed a person, the "priest" had her drink some milk, she woke up the next morning blind... that's where we left her.


oh yea! i doubt it made her permenantly blind. probably just to teach her a lesson and also to teach her to use her other senses. maybe by being blind, she will learn how to change her face?



> Well, that is true, and I agree to that, I believe she went there of free will, that Jon is a trueblood Targaryen and Stark (Ice and Fire anyone ?) but this is just speculation unfortunantly.



i think its the most popular speculation for jon's heritage though. jon being a trueblood targaryen will allow him to be one of the dragonriders 



> I remember it  how could I ever forget  and what's even better is that Jaime even admits it, him with all his arrogance says "The Sword of Morning could've slain this kings guard by himself



if those 3 would have been at the trident, i'm not so sure robert would have won. 



> Agreed, he has too many side projects, while I'm sure they're good, he needs to think more of the people he's kept waiting for 3 years, the ones eagerly attending the conventions he goes to, the ones who buy his books, post and visit his site and buy his merchandise. =/



agreed. he has all of these fans because of ASOIF. not because of his other projects. he needs to make the priority number one.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> true. maybe the wall will fall and he will have to retreat to get help to retake it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> They'll appear, very briefly
> 
> 
> However new loveable characters will appear, not to mention that Sansa
> ...



Thats awesome, more characters

I don't really like Sansa. Or most of her siblings, actually. Only the youngest and Jon.


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

_They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.  The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.  Ned could recall none of it._

Man, how is a guy expected to remember three sentences from the fourth chapter of the first book?  And it makes it seem as if Reed wasn't present in the room at the time, but maybe I'm misreading it.



> This is mildly spoilery for Martryn, so I'll stop.



You don't have to.  I've already worked that out for the most part. 



> i think its the most popular speculation for jon's heritage though. jon being a trueblood targaryen will allow him to be one of the dragonriders



So maybe Jon is really Prince Aegon saved, and they made an elaborate lie about his death.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

You like Rickon and Jon ? Not Arya 


> They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.
> 
> Man, how is a guy expected to remember three sentences from the fourth chapter of the first book? And it makes it seem as if Reed wasn't present in the room at the time, but maybe I'm misreading it.


Well, true but he's the only one who might have an idea about it, don't you agree ?


I liked most of the Starks (and Snow)

except for Rickon, fucking spoiled brat, I wish he'd die already.


and Catelyn, the biggest bitch in the world. Even after the red wedding


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

Yeah, i don't like Arya for some reason. I wish i could remember why.


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

> Well, true but he's the only one who might have an idea about it, don't you agree ?



Yeah, someone else had to be in the room, I suppose.  Man, I love flashbacks.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Yeah, that would be awesome.


 jon riding a dragon to retake the wall would be even more awesome 




> That is what I've theorized about  and praying D: Imagine blind Arya though


haha. i love arya so i hope she isn't blind, she has alot more to play in the story too. i hope her and jon meet up after she finishes her training.




> Not to mention he's the best candidate for the Iron Throne, marriage with Daeny, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand could be the promised prince that has apparently been predicted in more than one religion.


i totally forgot aobut the promised prince part! that would be incredible. it would also allow him to leave as lord commander too.



> Don't really know about that, we don't know how great the armies was on Robert's side, not to mention their strategy obviously defeated Rhaegars.


but wasn't robert the one that was holding everything together? if he would have died in the battle who knows if any one person would have been able to hold the army together.



> At least now when it's been three years... I mean one year, two years, It's ok to take a break once in awhile from one book, but three years, going on four in a few months.. I mean come on.
> 
> Patience has it's limits.



a year or two is ok between books. almost 4 years is just bad. the worst part about it is that he kept having release dates and then pushing them back.



martryn said:


> Oh, that must be in the first book.  Does anyone know the page number?



page 424 of the small paperback book. i think its after ned got attacked by jaime's men.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

~Yoruichi~ said:


> Yeah, i don't like Arya for some reason. I wish i could remember why.


Because she's a tomboy ? Because she's not dumb like Sansa ? Because she's too awesome to comprehend ? 


martryn said:


> Yeah, someone else had to be in the room, I suppose.  Man, I love flashbacks.


Indeed, especially when they're loosely described and involve major plot plans.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

i think howland reed was in the room and knows all about it. i think howland and jon will meet at some point and thats when he will find out the truth. it will be epic.

im thinking it will happen in the 6th book, maybe towards the end. so as to give ample time for jon to take charge of his new destiny


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

lol no those aren't the reasons. I really wish i could remember why. 
Could you help with something? I am trying to remember what happened to everyones wolves. One was killed, but i can't remember what happened to the others.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Yeah, but to be fair after reading the Jon Snow chapter one spoiler of ADWD I believe 
*Spoiler*: __ 



He will flee the wall. 


 and at that point he might meet Howland.





> lol no those aren't the reasons. I really wish i could remember why.
> Could you help with something? I am trying to remember what happened to everyones wolves. One was killed, but i can't remember what happened to the others.



Sansa's was killed, Nymeria is still running wild in the forest, sometimes Arya gets in it's skin at nights without knowing it.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Yeah, but to be fair after reading the Jon Snow chapter one spoiler of ADWD I believe
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



hey, better for all of us then if we find out sooner


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Sansa's was killed, Nymeria is still running wild in the forest, sometimes Arya gets in it's skin at nights without knowing it.



Thanks 
Is this Reed guy introduced in the fourth book? because i can't remember reading about him.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

I hope it gets more hinted, or even revealed in ADWD





> Thanks
> Is this Reed guy introduced in the fourth book? because i can't remember reading about him.


First book fourth chapter (the first eddard chapter.)


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

> Is this Reed guy introduced in the fourth book? because i can't remember reading about him.



I don't think (halfway through the third book) that we've actually met him yet, but he is referenced occasionally, and then his two kids pop up and talk about him occasionally as well.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Well, he's not been introduced as in the main story yet, only in flashbacks and talk about him as martryn said. He's not in book four either as that doesn't center around the north that much, might be in book five.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

Hmm, I really am going to have to reread those books. And buy the fourth book.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

The fourth book is good, but it takes longer to read because at first you don't get the familiar feeling you get from your favourite characters, imagine re-reading book one again where you barely know a character.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

martryn said:


> I don't think (halfway through the third book) that we've actually met him yet, but he is referenced occasionally, and then his two kids pop up and talk about him occasionally as well.



yup. he appeared in the story yet, except when other people are talking about him. i don't think any of his men have even fought in any battles yet. 

i like his kids. they seem very willing to help bran and don't want anything in return.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

The crannogmen are supposedly very loyal, and their father must've had some kind of close relationship with Eddard going through all that. The crannogmen doesn't strike me as betrayers like the Freys, I believe they're true to the lords of Winterfell until the end.


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

> imagine re-reading book one again where you barely know a character.



I breezed through book 1.  I could hardly put it down.  I'll probably do the same with book 4.  When you don't know much about a character, you're that much more eager to get to know them. 



> i like his kids. they seem very willing to help bran and don't want anything in return.





> The crannogmen are supposedly very loyal, and their father must've had some kind of close relationship with Eddard going through all that. The crannogmen doesn't strike me as betrayers like the Freys, I believe they're true to the lords of Winterfell until the end.



Really liking them as well.  I think the Reeds are one of the few families I'm not afraid will betray the Starks, as has just been said.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> The fourth book is good, but it takes longer to read because at first you don't get the familiar feeling you get from your favourite characters, imagine re-reading book one again where you barely know a character.



That sounds bad. I don't like not being familiar with the character. But i guess it might be easier if i read one back after another so i know whats going on.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

martryn said:


> I breezed through book 1.  I could hardly put it down.  I'll probably do the same with book 4.  When you don't know much about a character, you're that much more eager to get to know them.





			
				 Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The tale is told through the point of view of 12 POV characters and, as with previous volumes, a one-off prologue POV.
> 
> * Prologue: Pate, a novice of the maesters in Oldtown.
> * The Prophet, The Drowned Man: Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy
> ...



As you see there are many characters you recognize but the story mostly follows Sansa, Jaime, Brainne and Cersei... Which I doubt you'll feel "OMG I HAVE TO READ THIS" for at first


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

The book actually looks freakin' sweet.  I'm loving Jaime's point of view, and Brienne's as well.  And Samwell isn't bad.  Arya is always good. Some of the other characters, especially the knights, don't seem half bad either.  The only POV's that I'd be meh over are the Greyjoy's and Sansa, really.  The lack of Tyrion scares me, as he's one of my favorite characters.  Now I really have to read the rest of this book.  If he dies...


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

To be honest, The priest Greyjoy is very meh, Victarion and Asha are very awesome.


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

Asha did seem interesting from the one time I've really seen her.  I might enjoy her indeed.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

You will, but I believe you'll enjoy Victarion much much more =)


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

martryn said:


> Really liking them as well.  I think the Reeds are one of the few families I'm not afraid will betray the Starks, as has just been said.


i agree. they will not betray the starks. its just weird that they haven't really been in any of the battles yet(unless im mistaken). maybe they wanted to get a grip on the whole scene first before sending soldiers off. i guess they are also a good defense for winterfell.



Amamiya said:


> As you see there are many characters you recognize but the story mostly follows Sansa, Jaime, Brainne and Cersei... Which I doubt you'll feel "OMG I HAVE TO READ THIS" for at first



jaime is slowly becoming one of my favorite characters.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> i agree. they will not betray the starks. its just weird that they haven't really been in any of the battles yet(unless im mistaken). maybe they wanted to get a grip on the whole scene first before sending soldiers off. i guess they are also a good defense for winterfell.


Robb didn't even send a messenger to them, he probably thought them useless =/


> jaime is slowly becoming one of my favorite characters.



Agreed, but that came in book 4, not before it... at least for me.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Robb didn't even send a messenger to them, he probably thought them useless =/


i thought he did. why else would his two kids be there?



> Agreed, but that came in book 4, not before it... at least for me.


same here. my feelings about him started changing in book 3, but i didn't start fully liking him til book 4


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

I used to not like Jamie, but then with his interaction with Brienne i kinda started to like him more.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

I love the Tower of Joy memory.  Haha.  It it weren't for the net, I bet the Northmen would have lost. 



martryn said:


> Man, how is a guy expected to remember three sentences from the fourth chapter of the first book?  And it makes it seem as if Reed wasn't present in the room at the time, but maybe I'm misreading it.


The whole point is Howland saw Lyanna and her baby.  It doesn't take much to put the two facts together, who "kidnapped" her.  Reed would know, if this is true, that Jon is this baby and the implications.

Also, Ned recalls this while in prison too.  I think that's where, anyways.

Martin said he would definitely write part of the first book differently, and I think he means this.  Not to give it away like he did.  But...  we may never know at this pace.


As to why the Reed's haven't been active, apart from pissing off the Iron Islanders and Freys, I would say a green dream.  Jojen might have counseled his father to hold back for some event.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> i thought he did. why else would his two kids be there?


His child had a dream about Winterfell getting swallowed up by waves, so he sent them there to protect Bran and Rickon. (The waves being the Greyjoys)





> same here. my feelings about him started changing in book 3, but i didn't start fully liking him til book 4


Exactly 


~Yoruichi~ said:


> I used to not like Jamie, but then with his interaction with Brienne i kinda started to like him more.



I started liking him when I found out more about him, for example that he really only broke his vows to protect many innocent lives in Kings landing.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> I love the Tower of Joy memory.  Haha.  It it weren't for the net, I bet the Northmen would have lost.


 it had to have helped. 




> The whole point is Howland saw Lyanna and her baby.  It doesn't take much to put the two facts together, who "kidnapped" her.  Reed would know, if this is true, that Jon is this baby and the implications.
> 
> Also, Ned recalls this while in prison too.  I think that's where, anyways.
> 
> Martin said he would definitely write part of the first book differently, and I think he means this.  Not to give it away like he did.  But...  we may never know at this pace.


true, he could have figured it out that rhaegar was the father but i think ned probably told him or lyanna told ned while howland was in the room. it would make a much more interesting story to tell jon.

editamamiya

gosh i keep forgetting these things. i reread the first book recently, maybe its time for me to reread the others.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

I liked AFFC.  Some people thought it was too political, but I liked that part.  The rot and stupidity emanating out of King's Landing was great.  Seeing Oldtown was neat too.  It's a side that I had always wondered about.

I worried about liking Cersei like what happened with Jaime.  Things certainly changed though.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> I worried about liking Cersei like what happened with Jaime.  Things certainly changed though.



i hope cersei dies. i also hope sansa dies.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> His child had a dream about Winterfell getting swallowed up by waves, so he sent them there to protect Bran and Rickon. (The waves being the Greyjoys)
> Exactly
> 
> 
> I started liking him when I found out more about him, for example that he really only broke his vows to protect many innocent lives in Kings landing.



If i i found out something like that about him if he hadn't met brienne, i'd be surprise but now it really doesn't seem surprising.

edit: I hope cersei dies as well. i hate her


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> I love the Tower of Joy memory.  Haha.  It it weren't for the net, I bet the Northmen would have lost.


The net ?





> The whole point is Howland saw Lyanna and her baby.  It doesn't take much to put the two facts together, who "kidnapped" her.  Reed would know, if this is true, that Jon is this baby and the implications.


It seems everyone on this forum knows the truth about Jon 


> Also, Ned recalls this while in prison too.  I think that's where, anyways.


Oh yeah, right before that guy, what's he called Vary's showed up.





> Martin said he would definitely write part of the first book differently, and I think he means this.  Not to give it away like he did.  But...  we may never know at this pace.


My biggest concern is martins age, he might die before the last book


fireball said:


> it had to have helped.
> 
> 
> 
> true, he could have figured it out that rhaegar was the father but i think ned probably told him or lyanna told ned while howland was in the room. it would make a much more interesting story to tell jon.


Yeah, and I strongly believe he was in the room.





> editamamiya
> 
> gosh i keep forgetting these things. i reread the first book recently, maybe its time for me to reread the others.


Yeah, same here, must quell my urge to read ADWD with some of the old good stuff.



Dionysus said:


> I liked AFFC.  Some people thought it was too political, but I liked that part.  The rot and stupidity emanating out of King's Landing was great.  Seeing Oldtown was neat too.  It's a side that I had always wondered about.


I loved AFFC, it started slow because of the new characters, but it certainly delivered 


> I worried about liking Cersei like what happened with Jaime.  Things certainly changed though.


Yeah, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



she got more bitchy and is about to be executed.





fireball said:


> i hope cersei dies. i also hope sansa dies.


Sansa is starting to redeem herself, but the wolfs seems to be their lifeline, and well her wolf is dead, that doesn't speak very good for her future.


~Yoruichi~ said:


> If i i found out something like that about him if he hadn't met brienne, i'd be surprise but now it really doesn't seem surprising.
> 
> edit: I hope cersei dies as well. i hate her


Everyone does, and the strangled by a younger brother, I figured it was Jaime from the start really.

And the strangling part is most likely metaphorical too.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

cersei dug her own grave. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



she deserves it. crawling back to jaime at the end, what a bitch.






			
				Amamiya said:
			
		

> Everyone does, and the strangled by a younger brother, I figured it was Jaime from the start really.
> 
> And the strangling part is most likely metaphorical too.



huh?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Haha, I like how Jaime 
*Spoiler*: _spoiler for a certain person in the middle of book 3_ 



just burned her letter


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Haha, I like how Jaime
> *Spoiler*: _spoiler for a certain person in the middle of book 3_
> 
> 
> ...



my favorite part


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> my favorite part



That turned Jaime into one of my favourite characters period (Even Sansa would've become one of my favourites if she 
*Spoiler*: __ 



left Cersei to die


)


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> That turned Jaime into one of my favourite characters period (Even Sansa would've become one of my favourites if she
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



i wouldn't go THAT far, but i wouldn't want her to die anymore if that happened.

what about the "being strangled" thing you mentioned a few posts ago. what was that all about again?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> i wouldn't go THAT far, but i wouldn't want her to die anymore if that happened.
> 
> what about the "being strangled" thing you mentioned a few posts ago. what was that all about again?



I don't know if that's been explain by the half of book three so I'll spoiler it.



*Spoiler*: __ 



The fortune teller told her that she would be strangles(not sure if strangled was the word but I'm quite sure it was) by her younger brother, which is why she detested Tyrion more than the father and anyone else


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> I don't know if that's been explain by the half of book three so I'll spoiler it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



i do remember the fortune teller part now. but i forgot about it implicating tyrion like that. that could mean she won't die yet since tyrion is on his way off westeros. but if you are right then she will die now because jaime is not coming to her rescue


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> i do remember the fortune teller part now. but i forgot about it implicating tyrion like that. that means she won't die yet since tyrion is on his way off westeros




*Spoiler*: __ 



Which is why I thought since when I heard that fortune telling that the younger brother is Jaime (he came out after her which has been stated, thus making him a younger brother even if they are twins) will "strangle" her... I think burning the letter was strangling her.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why I thought since when I heard that fortune telling that the younger brother is Jaime (he came out after her which has been stated, thus making him a younger brother even if they are twins) will "strangle" her... I think burning the letter was strangling her.



i actually edited that post and basically agreed with what you said. i remembered that he actually came out after her.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Ah, yeah saw that now  I'm a speed poster, comes with fast internet(100/100 mbps ) and mad typing skillz


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

damn. how do you have it that fast?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

I live in an apartment in Sweden, fibre optic internet ftw! It costs me maybe 35 euros a month ^.^


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

sweet. i have fiber optic in my apartment too, but i use wireless so its capped at 54mbps. i get digital cable(with dvr), and fiber optic interent for $45 a month since i have two roommates.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Nice, where do you live ?

edit: *looks at "Location"* Never mind.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

you guys are lucky. I have dial up


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

That still exists 


back to ASOIF guys.


So what will happen to Arya, I doubt they'll let her stay after betraying them like that


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Nice, where do you live ?
> 
> edit: *looks at "Location"* Never mind.



. i live less than a mile from the pentagon. even you swedes have heard of that building im sure. its pretty cool actually.



Amamiya said:


> back to ASOIF guys.


someones trying to be an upstanding member now 



> So what will happen to Arya, I doubt they'll let her stay after betraying them like that



*Spoiler*: __ 



she broke the rules, i wouldn't say she betrayed them. unless im forgetting something, which is very possible. 

well they made her blind so they are probably going to have her stick around. she may just have to start from the bottom up again.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> . i live less than a mile from the pentagon. even you swedes have heard of that building im sure. its pretty cool actually.


that building where a plane SUPPOSEDLY flew in but there is no real evidence of it... besides a round whole in the middle of it from a plane with no wings, and the explosion pattern suggests it was blown from the inside, and they found a plane engine to another plane ? Yeah I heard of it 


> someones trying to be an upstanding member now


In these sections, I've always been =)





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hopefully, I'd love Arya to be a Faceless "man"


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> that building where a plane SUPPOSEDLY flew in but there is no real evidence of it... besides a round whole in the middle of it from a plane with no wings, and the explosion pattern suggests it was blown from the inside, and they found a plane engine to another plane ? Yeah I heard of it



 





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, I'd love Arya to be a Faceless "man"




*Spoiler*: __ 



 me too. she would be great at it too i think. she could really help people she cares about then. maybe go up to the wall and help jon and kill melisandre(sp?)


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


>


You like me sarcasm?





> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> me too. she would be great at it too i think. she could really help people she cares about then. maybe go up to the wall and help jon and kill melisandre(sp?)




*Spoiler*: _Spoilers from ADWD Jon Snow chapter 1_ 



I think Melisandre will help Jon in more ways than one, she as Aemon said must've realised Stannis weren't the Prince of that was promised, and in the fire with Mance (spoiler chapter Jon Snow) she must've seen Jon, which is why she stays at the Wall while Stannis moves on.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> You like me sarcasm?





> *Spoiler*: _Spoilers from ADWD Jon Snow chapter 1_
> 
> 
> 
> I think Melisandre will help Jon in more ways than one, she as Aemon said must've realised Stannis weren't the Prince of that was promised, and in the fire with Mance (spoiler chapter Jon Snow) she must've seen Jon, which is why she stays at the Wall while Stannis moves on.



*Spoiler*: __ 




she killed renly 
i'm curious to see what her true intentions are, afterwards arya can kill her for lulz 

i thought stannis was staying at the wall too? or is he going beyond the wall to fight? i can't remmeber and jon's chapter isn't up on grrm's site.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The chapter was up until last month =/ I wish that copyright policy wasn't up there and that GRRM weren't my favourite author because I would've so not respected it and copied it to a text file otherwise 



*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, he left the wall, or was planning too, and Jon said Melisandre should stay behind because the men by the harbors see men that listen to female advisors as weak (If I remember right) and Melisandre said, don't worry I'll be staying here anyway 



The chapter ended with her saying "You know nothing, Jon Snow." Which was super creepy.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> The chapter was up until last month =/ I wish that copyright policy wasn't up there and that GRRM weren't my favourite author because I would've so not respected it and copied it to a text file otherwise
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



where was his final destination? did it say? wish i could remember. you are probably right though, she could have seen something of jon snow and decided to stay behind because of it, her saying "you know nothing, jon snow" sorta says that she at least saw something of him in the fire. otherwise, how would she know that saying?

i still don't like her. she probably has some ulterior motive anyway.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



They were all still at the Wall, but it seemed like Stannis was going to leave by chapter 2 of Jon Snow


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> They were all still at the Wall, but it seemed like Stannis was going to leave by chapter 2 of Jon Snow




*Spoiler*: __ 



oh so he just said he was leaving, but didn't say where to. didn't jon and stannis have an argument about him wanting to get the support of the night's watch?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> oh so he just said he was leaving, but didn't say where to. didn't jon and stannis have an argument about him wanting to get the support of the night's watch?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon gave him "suggestions" as the Lord Commander he can't really help him, but he helped him in his fight against the Lannisters as he could... He suggested some places he could go, I also believe he told him to visit the Crannogmen, unsure about that though.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

No one read the released chapters from ADWD?  He's also read more chapters at conventions and things.  The summaries are posted on a forum I occasionally visit. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Stannis is going south to break the siege on Deepwood Motte, I think.  Melisandre stays with Jon on the Wall.

I remember Jon suggesting that helping the North might win them over, so Stannis starts fighting the nearest Iron Islanders.  (Asha, I think.)


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Jon gave him "suggestions" as the Lord Commander he can't really help him, but he helped him in his fight against the Lannisters as he could... He suggested some places he could go, I also believe he told him to visit the Crannogmen, unsure about that though.




*Spoiler*: __ 



i thought stannis was pissed at jon for not helping him more.






Dionysus said:


> No one read the released chapters from ADWD?  He's also read more chapters at conventions and things.  The summaries are posted on a forum I occasionally visit.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



i read them, but it's been along time.


*Spoiler*: __ 



who controls deepwood motte again?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Don't remember really




Dionysus could you please post the Jon Snow chapters that have been released ?


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Dionysus could you please post the Jon Snow chapters that have been released ?



i second this.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

I knew about him reading stuffs at his conventions but I just read summaries of it =/


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

i heard about that too. i think i read one of his interviews before too.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

I never read one of his interviews, I saw one though, but it was about like the ice dragon or something, he had an awesome voice


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

you saw one. where at?

ice dragon?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Youtube, and it was like some book he wrote, probably crap 

I just clicked on it because I was curious on his voice


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

oh. thought you actually saw him in person. wouldn't surprise me with all the trips to conventions he does instead of writing ADWD


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

He's never come to Sweden, and yeah, only time he ever mentions ASoIF on his "not a blog" any more is when something new is up for sale


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> He's never come to Sweden, and yeah, only time he ever mentions ASoIF on his "not a blog" any more is when something new is up for sale



 that is so true. i just looked at it and the latest post about ASoIF was something for sale.

i'm hoping bran becomes fucking powerful. i hope he just starts killing his enemies with animals.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

The last three posts about ASoIF has been about

a) The Calendar (Which I bought)

b) The Sword Replicas (Which I wish I could afford atm)

c) The Special Edition Book for $250 which there are only 30 left of!


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

i'm not going to buy anything more of ASoIF until the next book comes out. he isn't getting my money til i get the next book!

i own the books and the art book.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

Here's something I didn't come up with, but I think it rather neat:



> If you look at the symbolism in Hoster's funeral, the Tully's will come back. Edmure's first arrow comes up short, like he came up short in the Battle at Goldentooth. His second arrow goes too far, like Edmure did by winning the Battle at Stone Mill, forcing Tywin to retreat and save Kingslanding [Dionysus: I think this was Casterly Rock or something, not King's Landing]. His third arrow just misses, like Edmure's marriage to Roslyn Frey fails to restore the good graces of Walder Frey. Then, the Blackfish's arrow disappears into the fog, but soon flames can be seen way out on the river. The Blackfish will be the one to restore House Tully.



You can read about the chapters here.  I don't have the actual chapter on me, but the threads at least go over the meat of what happens.

Sometimes you can find the chapters on places like Amazon.

I'll have a look to see if I can find the Jon chapter posted somewhere.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Man, I wanted the art book, but couldn't find a place where they sell it inside of Sweden any more  most of them don't even order it in any more =/


On Westeros they don't post the chapters themselves =/

That's where I found summaries though.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

that is neat. i really like the blackfish too so i hope that happens.

edit: westeros probably doesn't want to get sued by grrm. with his obsession about money, i wouldn't put it past him.

art book is pretty sweet. its nice to see people's interpretations of the characters.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Come on, let's not make him out to be another Togashi  he can't be that much like Tywin


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

all he does is promote himself. you yourself proved that he is all about making money since his last 3 posts about ASoIF on his blog are all about him promoting products he wants you to buy.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

*whistles* Well... *whistles* I mean... come on... Okay you got me D:


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 25, 2008)

BUY MY SHIT!


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

:rofl

maybe he will realize that he needs to put out another book before he can continue to milk ASoIF.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> BUY MY SHIT!


Hey Yu, long time no see (Freija inside)


fireball said:


> :rofl
> 
> maybe he will realize that he needs to put out another book before he can continue to milk ASoIF.



Hopefully


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

Well, you can read the Reek chapter I linked to.  It's rather sad and disgusting, but a neat read nonetheless.

I don't think GRRM wants some of the chapters seen (money issues aside) since they're likely revised.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Money issues aside 

And yeah, he said like 7 months ago he was rewriting lots of chapters.


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 25, 2008)

Rewrites are a bitch. I've rewritten my book and like a year later I'm not even halfway to where I was.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

If GRRM does much more of that, the fans are going to go back to reading stuff like Harry Potter.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 25, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Money issues aside







> And yeah, he said like 7 months ago he was rewriting lots of chapters.



i read that too. probably just an excuse so he can go to more conventions and not write.


i must go for the night. friends birthday and i have to go get obliterated. goodnight. most posts i've done in one day in a real long time.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

fireball said:


> i read that too. probably just an excuse so he can go to more conventions and not write.


I'm one of those who think he stopped working on ASoIF on his trip to spain.





> i must go for the night. friends birthday and i have to go get obliterated. goodnight. most posts i've done in one day in a real long time.



laters


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

Mmmmmmmmmmm.



> The rat squealed as he bit into it, squirming wildly in his hands. The belly was the softest part. He tore at the sweet meat, the warm blood running over his lips. It was so good that it brought tears to his eyes. His belly rumbled and he swallowed. By the third bite the rat had ceased to struggle, and he was feeling almost content.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

That sounds very tasty


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

I think that's Theon Greyjoy. 

Good man...


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

That was indeed Theon, but why would they ride to war to get Arya ? I mean didn't Ramsay ride together with her already ?


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

I can't remember.  I think the impostor was with someone else.  Bolton's heir was always in the North, as far as I remember.

He used the name Reek to infiltrate Theon's crew.  Now he has Theon use the name Reek.  Poor traitor.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Oh right, but I mean why go to war for her ?


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

Because he has to make sure she gets through to him.  There are lots of hazards in the way.  I think he was just being dramatic about it.  (Since he's already at war with at least the Iron Islanders.)

This might be where we see some Crannogmen action.  If they hear Arya is held by a group coming up to marry a Bolton...


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 25, 2008)

Cuz lolis are always a worthy prize?


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> Because he has to make sure she gets through to him.  There are lots of hazards in the way.  I think he was just being dramatic about it.  (Since he's already at war with at least the Iron Islanders.)
> 
> This might be where we see some Crannogmen action.  If they hear Arya is held by a group coming up to marry a Bolton...



Indeed, they'd probably slaughter the Boltons


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 25, 2008)

Holy crap! I just realized I've been working on my book as long as GRRM has been ADWD. If I finish before he does I'll laugh.


----------



## Freija (Oct 25, 2008)

Hahaha, you must be a really slow author Yu!


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 25, 2008)

I've had a lot of world building to do.  

This is my first novel and I've spent alot of time refining my style all while balancing(albeit poorly) school. I've had to rewrite it a whole lot. It's real pain in the ass to construct your own world.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

In Yu's defense, he's not a professional author like some slow people out there.


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 25, 2008)

Yeah!


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 25, 2008)

Martin was already partially finished ADWD too when AFFC came out.

Are conventions that fun?  I guess they are since he can travel the globe on someone else's dime. No wonder he doesn't have to write anything other than "Wildcards."


----------



## martryn (Oct 25, 2008)

Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning.  Eddard remembers him while in his prison cell beneath the Red Keep.  That's the earliest mention that I can find of him, though he might have been mentioned earlier in the book.  There was some recounting, somewhere, of Eddard talking about facing three of the Kingsguard during Robert's War, or some such.  I can't find that, or even remember if it was Eddard's memory, though it must have been. 

The Dayne's are sworn to House Martell, eh? 



> Also, Ned recalls this while in prison too. I think that's where, anyways.



He recalls only the tourney at Harrenhal, if that's what you mean, not Lyanna's death, though he does recall Lyanna asking that Eddard promise her. 



> Sansa is starting to redeem herself, but the wolfs seems to be their lifeline, and well her wolf is dead, that doesn't speak very good for her future.



Maybe that just means the part of her that was a Stark has died. 



> spoiler for a certain person in the middle of book 3



I read it anyways. 



> i live less than a mile from the pentagon. even you swedes have heard of that building im sure. its pretty cool actually.



Damn, scary.  Were you around on 9/11?

Wow, that was a lot of reading to do.  You guys didn't let up in this thread, didcha?


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 25, 2008)

I just read some info on wiki, its Bran i like not Rickon( i know i said the youngest, i meant Bran though). I also read on there about it becoming a show-old news i bet, but still- that would be interesting to see if it does happen and what it turns out like.


----------



## Dream Brother (Oct 26, 2008)

martryn said:


> Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning.



I've been curious about him ever since Eddard called him the 'finest Knight' that he ever saw, or something along those lines.


----------



## martryn (Oct 26, 2008)

Yeah, that's one HBO program I'll be sorry to miss.  I'll have to find it somewhere online to watch.  I heard each season was going to be a book.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 26, 2008)

I don't have HBO either, but nowadays lots of stations are putting their shows online, i don't know if HBO does it though. One book per season seems far to me, but if he doesn't come out with the last two books before the series catches up- which does seem likely considering how long this last book has been taking to come out- i wonder what they will do?


----------



## martryn (Oct 26, 2008)

> i wonder what they will do?



Take an extended break.  I've been picturing a lot of the stuff in the books as a television program.  I'm curious who they're gonna get to play Tyrion and Brienne.  And what they're gonna do about all the underaged sex and nudity in the series.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

martryn said:


> Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning.  Eddard remembers him while in his prison cell beneath the Red Keep.  That's the earliest mention that I can find of him, though he might have been mentioned earlier in the book.  There was some recounting, somewhere, of Eddard talking about facing three of the Kingsguard during Robert's War, or some such.  I can't find that, or even remember if it was Eddard's memory, though it must have been.


when he dreamed the dream of him and 6 others facing the 3 kingsguards it was right after he was attacked by jaime. he woke up in the tower of the hand. this was before he was in prison. page 423 of the small paperback book.



> The Dayne's are sworn to House Martell, eh?


yes




> He recalls only the tourney at Harrenhal, if that's what you mean, not Lyanna's death, though he does recall Lyanna asking that Eddard promise her.


he recalls lyanna's death or soon to be death when he is facing the 3 kingsguards. she dies right afterwards. he remember her screaming his name when he is fighting.




> Maybe that just means the part of her that was a Stark has died.


that is possible. she hasn't been much of a stark since her wolf died.








> Damn, scary.  Were you around on 9/11?


no i wasn't. i only moved there alittle over a year ago. that would have been scary if i was.


martryn said:


> Take an extended break.  I've been picturing a lot of the stuff in the books as a television program.  I'm curious who they're gonna get to play Tyrion and Brienne.  And what they're gonna do about all the underaged sex and nudity in the series.


i always wondered who they would get to play tyrion. its hbo, they will figure out a way to do that. they could always find girls that look underage but really aren't. haha.


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 26, 2008)

It wouldn't be so much the actors but the portrayal of underage sex.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

true. but hbo could get away with that i think.


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> I've been curious about him ever since Eddard called him the 'finest Knight' that he ever saw, or something along those lines.



Not to mention that everyone who knew him or lived during his time says the same.


----------



## martryn (Oct 26, 2008)

> when he dreamed the dream of him and 6 others facing the 3 kingsguards it was right after he was attacked by jaime. he woke up in the tower of the hand. this was before he was in prison. page 423 of the small paperback book.



Indeed.  It was right there.  Seven vs. three, and only Eddard and Howland came away.  Damn, those old Kingsguard guys were not only cool, they were fucking badass. 



> he recalls lyanna's death or soon to be death when he is facing the 3 kingsguards. she dies right afterwards. he remember her screaming his name when he is fighting.



But that wasn't in his cell, which is what I was referring to.


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

I don't remember that bit of memory, him hearing her screaming his name.


----------



## martryn (Oct 26, 2008)

> I don't remember that bit of memory, him hearing her screaming his name.



_"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice.  "Now it ends."  As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming, _"Eddard!" _she called.  A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death._


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh yeah, now I remember, but I always saw that as two different events.

Like the screaming was another memory mixing into that one.


----------



## Felix (Oct 26, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> The last three posts about ASoIF has been about
> 
> a) The Calendar (Which I bought)
> 
> ...



I so want one of those


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

$250 for Longclaw and like $80 for freight(to Sweden) D:


Not that much with current currency for the dollar, but I'm just a poor student who just bought a new monitor =/


----------



## Felix (Oct 26, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> $250 for Longclaw and like $80 for freight(to Sweden) D:
> 
> 
> Not that much with current currency for the dollar, but I'm just a poor student who just bought a new monitor =/



Whoa, that cheap?
Are the replicas any good?
I'm really considering getting one


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

It's not carbon steel so it's quite cheap.






 <-- Longclaw


They're currently working on Needle, so I'm saving my money so I can buy Ice when it's available.




four times now, ASoIF is mentioned along with something you can buy


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

martryn said:


> Indeed.  It was right there.  Seven vs. three, and only Eddard and Howland came away.  Damn, those old Kingsguard guys were not only cool, they were fucking badass.


Seriously. I hope we hear more about them later. i want howland to describe that battle more in detail.




> But that wasn't in his cell, which is what I was referring to.


oh. i think i was confused about what you were refering to when i made that post.



Amamiya said:


> four times now, ASoIF is mentioned along with something you can buy



 oh george..


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

Seriously, why doesn't he give us updates, false ones would be awesome even.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

haha. we have been getting false ones all along with all the release date bullshit. him pushing them back hasn't been very awesome, imo.

edit: i do wish he would just tell us something


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

Like "Soon done" or "The book now contains xxxx pages"


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 26, 2008)

At this rate the book better contain 3000 pages.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

3000 pages would be incredible. it definetly better be over a 1000 though.


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

Should be, because he's been working on it for fucking 3 years!


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

it'll be at least 4 years between the 4th and 5th books. i hope not any more.

what do you think rickon and osha are doing?


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

Getting owned somewhere, I'm more curious about Bran.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

why would they be getting owned? rickon still has he crazy wolf. he should be doing the owning. its just we haven't even heard a word from them since then. i kinda started liking osha.

me too. bran is one of my favorite characters. i really like the way his story is going too. gets us to know more about westeros past and gives us more insight into magic.


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

I disliked most of the starks view towards Jon.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

i don't think bran had a bad view of jon. the only ones who did view him badly was sansa and catelyn.


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

Bran had a cold view towards him too, saw him more like another Theon than a brother.


Rickon was a little brat too.


To be fair, I like Bran though even though he's a little bastard


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 26, 2008)

martryn said:


> Take an extended break.  I've been picturing a lot of the stuff in the books as a television program.  I'm curious who they're gonna get to play Tyrion and Brienne.  And what they're gonna do about all the underaged sex and nudity in the series.



They might just show the beginning then come back after its over for the underage sex scenes, or have ppl who are 18 play them.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Bran had a cold view towards him too, saw him more like another Theon than a brother.
> 
> 
> Rickon was a little brat too.
> ...



i didn't get that feeling. 

rickon was a brat, but thats more cause his age i think.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 26, 2008)

I wouldn't consider getting those swords unless they were actual real carbon steel swords.  The company is considering doing some if there is demand.  As it stands now, they're just dull stainless steel showpieces.  Not that I want a sword to use it; I just think a dull replica is tacky.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

i agree. if you are going to get one of the swords, wait til its the real deal.


----------



## Felix (Oct 26, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> I wouldn't consider getting those swords unless they were actual real carbon steel swords.  The company is considering doing some if there is demand.  As it stands now, they're just dull stainless steel showpieces.  Not that I want a sword to use it; I just think a dull replica is tacky.



If I could have a real sword (1:1 replica), believe me, I would prefer it
It would be badass bringing people to my room and having the sword in a showpiece


----------



## Freija (Oct 26, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> I wouldn't consider getting those swords unless they were actual real carbon steel swords.  The company is considering doing some if there is demand.  As it stands now, they're just dull stainless steel showpieces.  Not that I want a sword to use it; I just think a dull replica is tacky.



Carbon steel is a pain in the ass, I sold 3 of my handmade samurai swords because it's annoying to oil them  I still have one though


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 26, 2008)

Well, these are "real size" replicas with designs GRRM approves.  They dull stainless, that's all.  I'm sure most people would be impressed (if they would be impressed with a sword in general) regardless of functional use.

I just wouldn't mind waiting for a real replica.

Maybe Dawn.  But a long or great sword might be a little excessive.


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 26, 2008)

Offtopic I must say this is rare activity outside the Aspiring Novelists thread.
On-topic: I want commit daring Iron Islands style raids and I can't pay the Iron price with dull stainless steel. Well I could but the effort required would be excessive and the gain would be less.


----------



## Crowe (Oct 26, 2008)

I hate George RR Martin. I really really do hate him.

I love the series and I consider them one of the best fantasy series I have read even though the bastard kills off character quite often. I have read the entire series three times except A Feast For Crows which I have read once you may think "Oh. God what a geek, he really must love this", well I do love the series but you can't imagine how many times I put the book down, vowing never to read it again, just to pick it up again later the same evening.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Zombie Catelyn & assassin Arya <3


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 26, 2008)

mister. pek said:


> I hate George RR Martin. I really really do hate him.


Pekky, you might like .  Made by people taking GRRM's words to heart.


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 26, 2008)

mister. pek said:


> I hate George RR Martin. I really really do hate him.
> 
> I love the series and I consider them one of the best fantasy series I have read even though the bastard kills off character quite often. I have read the entire series three times except A Feast For Crows which I have read once you may think "Oh. God what a geek, he really must love this", well I do love the series but you can't imagine how many times I put the book down, vowing never to read it again, just to pick it up again later the same evening.
> 
> ...



I think most people hate him right now for not getting the next book out. He really needs to do that. 

I don't think your a geek, considering i have read some series like 7/8 times.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Assassin Arya is awesome




@Dionysus- I saw that website, thats hilarious


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## martryn (Oct 26, 2008)

> Like the screaming was another memory mixing into that one.



Yeah, me too.  I hardly think she was present, though I guess she could have been, I guess. 



> Rickon was a little brat too.



Seriously, the kid is like three or four years old and his entire world was turned upside down.  I don't think George R. R. Martin did a bad job of portraying him for that age.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 26, 2008)

mister. pek said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Zombie Catelyn & assassin Arya <3




*Spoiler*: __ 



how could you love catelyn in any form?! she is an awful person who deserves to die and NOT come back. as you can tell, i hate her.






martryn said:


> Yeah, me too.  I hardly think she was present, though I guess she could have been, I guess.


are you talking about at the tower of joy?



> Seriously, the kid is like three or four years old and his entire world was turned upside down.  I don't think George R. R. Martin did a bad job of portraying him for that age.



it really shows through his wolf too. how shaggy got all fucking crazy and starting biting people after rickon's world collapsed on him.


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## Gray Wolf (Oct 26, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> I've been curious about him ever since Eddard called him the 'finest Knight' that he ever saw, or something along those lines.



Every character that has mentioned Arthur Dayne held him in high regard.


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## martryn (Oct 27, 2008)

> are you talking about at the tower of joy?



Wherever the seven faced the three.

All this talk of A Song of Ice and Fire has made me pick up Final Fantasy Tactics again.  God bless the PSP version.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

Final Fantasy Tactics weren't good


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## martryn (Oct 27, 2008)

> Final Fantasy Tactics weren't good



Blasphemer!  I'm actually writing a Final Fantasy Tactics blog.  

What is the difference between a wight and an Other?  I thought they were the same thing, but in this chapter I'm reading from Samwell Tarley's point of view, he refers to _wights and Others_ as if they were different entities.  Is it sort of like vampires and vampire spawn?  Are Others more powerful or something?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 27, 2008)

martryn said:


> What is the difference between a wight and an Other?  I thought they were the same thing, but in this chapter I'm reading from Samwell Tarley's point of view, he refers to _wights and Others_ as if they were different entities.  Is it sort of like vampires and vampire spawn?  Are Others more powerful or something?


From what I understand, Others are the true beings of cold while the wights are simply the resurrected bodies of dead people and animals. I think Others are indeed more powerful than wights.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

martryn said:


> Blasphemer!  I'm actually writing a Final Fantasy Tactics blog.
> 
> What is the difference between a wight and an Other?  I thought they were the same thing, but in this chapter I'm reading from Samwell Tarley's point of view, he refers to _wights and Others_ as if they were different entities.  Is it sort of like vampires and vampire spawn?  Are Others more powerful or something?


The Others are "demons" of ice pretty much, while wights are controlled by necromancy, so they're pretty much moving bodies.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> From what I understand, Others are the true beings of cold while the wights are simply the resurrected bodies of dead people and animals. I think Others are indeed more powerful than wights.



Others are much more powerful, remember what happened to Ser Royce in the first prologue ?


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## martryn (Oct 27, 2008)

Ok, yeah, reading the prologue again definitely reminded me of the difference between the Others and the wights.  The Others are fucking badasses.  I think if they attacked in force it would be hard for anyone to be able to stop them.  Damn.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

Btw, GRRM mentioned ADWD, though someone broke into his house and said the files with ADWD was fine since they didn't steal the computer and he had a backup anyway.


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## Dionysus (Oct 27, 2008)

It seems hinted to me that wights are controlled similarly to Bran's ability.  I've thought that ever since I saw Coldhands.

I'm hoping the Others make their move ASAP.  Like, in ADWD.  They're taking their sweet time, and it seems less and less of the remaining books will be devoted to them.  (Perhaps he's having difficulty writing it without it being cheesy.)

Of course, 3 books became 6.  6 became 7.  Maybe 7 will transform too.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

I believe Coldhands is perhaps Will or Royce.


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## Dionysus (Oct 27, 2008)

Or...  Ben Stark!  (I want some closure there. :/)

Holy christ dude.  I can't even quickly edit my posts without a reply.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

I really we get some more Ben Stark, but I feel it's not him, Bran would recognize him.


As for the fast posts, sorry  I'm born like this T_T


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## Dionysus (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't think Bran say Coldhands's face, did he?  I thought there was a hood?  I remember the only flesh he saw was the cold black hands.  It's been A LONG TIME though.  Could be mistaken.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

Yeah, I know, but still he would notice it, even hooded you can see parts.


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

martryn said:


> Wherever the seven faced the three.


she had to be there. otherwise the kingsguards wouldn't have been there.




Amamiya said:


> Btw, GRRM mentioned ADWD, though someone broke into his house and said the files with ADWD was fine since they didn't steal the computer and he had a backup anyway.


what if he used that excuse to delay the book even further?


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

Oh trust me, I saw that possibility already.


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## martryn (Oct 27, 2008)

> she had to be there. otherwise the kingsguards wouldn't have been there.



Hmmm... I guess you're right.  Silly 'ol me.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

What was the tower called again ?


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

Tower of Joy

At least i think.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

I can imagine


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

I just reread the chapter that part and it doesn't mention the name. wonder where i heard the name.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

Tower of Joy is where it happened


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

where did it say the name?


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

Tower of Joy ? Book one, when he reminiscence about it, either in the first eddard chap or the one in the dungeon.


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## martryn (Oct 27, 2008)

> Tower of Joy ? Book one, when he reminiscence about it, either in the first eddard chap or the one in the dungeon.



No, not there.  I don't think.  In his first POV chapter the tower isn't mentioned, just that she was dying in a room.  At the time I thought it must be a castle of some sort that she was in.  In the dungeon it talks about Harrenhal and Lyanna dying, but not where.  In the chapter when he awakens after Jaime attacked him we hear about the seven vs. the three, and a tower is mentioned, but it's either _a tower long fallen_ or _the round tower._


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

I personally know it's called the Tower of Joy too


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

wikipedia agrees with us.


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## Freija (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm always right :S


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

i wish it said when it was mentioned.


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## martryn (Oct 27, 2008)

> wikipedia agrees with us.



I didn't doubt your rightness, I just was saying that I didn't think that was where it mentioned the Tower of Joy.  

Reading that wikipedia page, though, made me realize that Ashara Dayne was an unlikely candidate for Jon's mother, unless they fucked at Harrenhal, her and Ned.  It says that she committed suicide shortly after receiving Dawn.  I guess the tourney at Harrenhal, before Ned was wed to Catelyn, would have been a time... I guess.  But I don't think so.  I thought Robb was said to have been older than Jon.  

Regardless, if Lyanna were being protected in the Tower of Joy by members of the Kingsguard, it's much more likely she died in childbirth and that's the reason the Kingsguard were there in the first place, and Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and that's the promise Ned was meant to have kept, so as to save Jon's life as being a heir to the Targaryen throne.  

Course, I'm pretty sure we've all already figured that shit out.


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

martryn said:


> I didn't doubt your rightness, I just was saying that I didn't think that was where it mentioned the Tower of Joy.


oh. my bad.



> Reading that wikipedia page, though, made me realize that Ashara Dayne was an unlikely candidate for Jon's mother, unless they fucked at Harrenhal, her and Ned.  It says that she committed suicide shortly after receiving Dawn.  I guess the tourney at Harrenhal, before Ned was wed to Catelyn, would have been a time... I guess.  But I don't think so.  I thought Robb was said to have been older than Jon.


not sure if he was older, but they were roughly the same age.



> Regardless, if Lyanna were being protected in the Tower of Joy by members of the Kingsguard, it's much more likely she died in childbirth and that's the reason the Kingsguard were there in the first place, and Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and that's the promise Ned was meant to have kept, so as to save Jon's life as being a heir to the Targaryen throne.
> 
> Course, I'm pretty sure we've all already figured that shit out.



yup. haha.


*Spoiler*: _Should finish all of 3rd book before reading_ 



I just read on wikipedia that apparently Robb named an heir to winterfell before he died. he didn't want tyrion to get winterfell since he was engaged to sansa. its thought that he gave jon winterfell, but only roose bolton knows the truth. that would be sweet if jon got winterfell. though he would probably give it to bran.


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## martryn (Oct 27, 2008)

Man, it sucks that I can't help but read spoilers.  But I suppose I knew that was coming from the earlier talk of Robb winning every battle but still losing the war.  I've had a feeling Robb was doomed for a bit.  

I'm curious as to when, exactly, did Catelyn and Eddard get wed.  Was it before the war, or immediately afterwards?  The war started pretty much when Brandon and all those lords got killed for treason, but wasn't Eddard still at the Eyrie then?  How could Eddard and Catelyn wed then?


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

martryn said:


> Man, it sucks that I can't help but read spoilers.  But I suppose I knew that was coming from the earlier talk of Robb winning every battle but still losing the war.  I've had a feeling Robb was doomed for a bit.



sorry. didn't mean to ruin it for you by tempting you with the spoiler tag



> I'm curious as to when, exactly, did Catelyn and Eddard get wed.  Was it before the war, or immediately afterwards?  The war started pretty much when Brandon and all those lords got killed for treason, but wasn't Eddard still at the Eyrie then?  How could Eddard and Catelyn wed then?


they either wed before the war, or soon after brandon died. they needed to wed and have a child so that there would be an heir to the throne in case ned died. ned's father and elder brother were murdered at the beginning of the war.


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## martryn (Oct 27, 2008)

> sorry. didn't mean to ruin it for you by tempting you with the spoiler tag



I read all spoiler tags.  Regardless of content.  Comes from being the owner of the Spoiler FC.  I love spoilers. 



> they either wed before the war, or soon after brandon died. they needed to wed and have a child so that there would be an heir to the throne in case ned died. ned's father and elder brother were murdered at the beginning of the war.



I wonder if Benjen had already been sent off to the Night's Watch by then.


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## Nakor (Oct 27, 2008)

martryn said:


> I read all spoiler tags.  Regardless of content.  Comes from being the owner of the Spoiler FC.  I love spoilers.


so i guess i did you a favor by giving you a juicy spoiler to read 





> I wonder if Benjen had already been sent off to the Night's Watch by then.



Not sure. But i think that might have been the case. I remember Ned and Catelyn's wedding was done in a rush because he had to go to battle soon. Though I guess another reason for the rush wedding would be to secure the Tully's as an ally in the war.


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## Dionysus (Oct 28, 2008)

Ned and Cat were married shortly after Ned took Brandon's role as heir to Winterfell.  ie. after his was killed by the mad Targaryen.  Ned knocks Cat up and leaves to fight.

Now, he might have been in some battles prior, then went home to wed, but... I'm not entirely sure.  I don't think he did though.  It's not likely Ned met with Ashara at all until returning Dawn.

Really, it's the only time Ned lies, and he remarks how it besmirches his honour.  But it's the promise he made.  Robert would have surely killed Jon if the news surfaced.  (Probably why he harshly dealt with speculation of Jon's parentage.)

If Jon isn't Lyanna's boy, then I'll be surprised.  Truly surprised.  If he is, then his father really only should be Rhaegar.

I've realised I have to argue this point every year or so.  I think I've done enough now.  I hope I won't broach the subject again until after ADWD.



Amamiya said:


> Yeah, I know, but still he would notice it, even hooded you can see parts.


What?  How can you be so certain of this?  Bran specifically noted surprise upon seeing his hand.  Meaning he didn't see ANY of his skin before that.  It's completely unknown who Coldhands is or was.  It being Ben, one of Ben's men or sewn together parts, there's nothing to rule out any of it.

I gathered that you're in Sweden?  Have you seen a winter hood?  Surely you have.


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## martryn (Oct 28, 2008)

> Ned and Cat were married shortly after Ned took Brandon's role as heir to Winterfell. ie. after his was killed by the mad Targaryen. Ned knocks Cat up and leaves to fight.



But it still begs the question of where they were wed.  Was it at Riverrun on his way north from the Eyrie?  But I thought he went to Gulltown and sailed to White Harbor.  Or was Catelyn already in Winterfell when he arrived there and they wed there?  I guess that could make sense, though it's said that Brandon was urged not to go to King's Landing by Hoster Tully, so does that mean he was in Winterfell too?  I always thought that he and Brandon were at Riverrun, and so was Catelyn.  

Or... I guess all of this action could have taken place at Harrenhal.  Wasn't that where Lyanna was abducted?  But then again, Ned would not have married until after Brandon's death, which was around the time Aerys was demanding for Jon Arryn to give up Robert and Ned.  



> Now, he might have been in some battles prior, then went home to wed, but... I'm not entirely sure. I don't think he did though. It's not likely Ned met with Ashara at all until returning Dawn.



I'm certain they met at Harrenhal from the story Meera tells Bran of the quiet wolf dancing with the lady with the violet eyes at the feast during the tournament.  



> Really, it's the only time Ned lies, and he remarks how it besmirches his honour. But it's the promise he made. Robert would have surely killed Jon if the news surfaced. (Probably why he harshly dealt with speculation of Jon's parentage.)



I don't know if Robert would have killed Jon.  It was the Lannisters and their bannermen that killed the infants and children of Prince Rhaegar.  Robert was too injured to be present during the sacking of King's Landing.


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## Freija (Oct 28, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> Ned and Cat were married shortly after Ned took Brandon's role as heir to Winterfell.  ie. after his was killed by the mad Targaryen.  Ned knocks Cat up and leaves to fight.
> 
> Now, he might have been in some battles prior, then went home to wed, but... I'm not entirely sure.  I don't think he did though.  It's not likely Ned met with Ashara at all until returning Dawn.
> 
> ...


Hehehe, good point 


I thought of a more traditional hood like one on a sweater or so, never occurred to me it could've been a big hood like that 


And mind you, it's not that cold in Sweden


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## Nakor (Oct 28, 2008)

martryn said:


> I don't know if Robert would have killed Jon.  It was the Lannisters and their bannermen that killed the infants and children of Prince Rhaegar.  Robert was too injured to be present during the sacking of King's Landing.



But you know how Robert was acting towards Dany. He wanted her to die. I think if it was only Robert at the sacking of King's Landing, then the kids would all have died. But if Ned or Jon Arryn were there with him, then they wouldn't have died.


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## Freija (Oct 29, 2008)

Robert would've taken Jon's head off faster than I could write this message.


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## martryn (Oct 29, 2008)

> Robert would've taken Jon's head off faster than I could write this message.



I don't think so.  Not if Eddard told him that Lyanna wanted the boy alive.


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## Freija (Oct 29, 2008)

... You honestly think that would've stopped him ? Re-read the chapters whenever a Targaryen is brought up.


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## martryn (Oct 29, 2008)

> ... You honestly think that would've stopped him ? Re-read the chapters whenever a Targaryen is brought up.



But read how Ned is able to make him change his mind.  And read the way Robert pretty much worshiped Lyanna.  I don't think he would have touched the kid if he knew Lyanna wanted it alive.


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## The Pink Ninja (Oct 29, 2008)

If he learned Jon was Lyanna's that'd make him even more mad. Rhaegar robbing him again... exspecially if he learned Lyanna was willing...


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## Freija (Oct 29, 2008)

martryn said:


> But read how Ned is able to make him change his mind.  And read the way Robert pretty much worshiped Lyanna.  I don't think he would have touched the kid if he knew Lyanna wanted it alive.



Change his mind ? He sent assassins after Daenerys, and Eddard gave up every conversation about a Targaryen.

Go re-read.


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## martryn (Oct 29, 2008)

> exspecially if he learned Lyanna was willing...



...she wasn't. 



> Change his mind ? He sent assassins after Daenerys, and Eddard gave up every conversation about a Targaryen.
> 
> Go re-read.



Well, he did on his deathbed.  And we're talking about a new born baby, son of his true love, who is no threat to him and that Ned was gonna raise as his own, not a delusional beggar king and his sister trying to raise an army to take back what is rightfully theirs.


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## The Pink Ninja (Oct 29, 2008)

martryn said:


> ...she wasn't.



Wanna bet?

For starters, uber noble Rhaegar a rapist?

Secondly, he gave her flowers at that tourney.

Third, Lyanna wnated Ned to potect Jon, not smother the sick abomination.

Fourth, all the girls were wet for Rhaegar, as evidenced by Cersei.



> Well, he did on his deathbed.  And we're talking about a new born baby, son of his true love, who is no threat to him and that Ned was gonna raise as his own, not a delusional beggar king and his sister trying to raise an army to take back what is rightfully theirs.



We're talking about a younger, wilder Robert who has just very very recently lost the love of his life.

And all heirs are threats, even if they're babies. Kids grow up. Didn't you read Sworn Sword? The whole Blackfyre rebellion was the result of a Tangeryn bastard, and he almost won. And Viserys and Danny evidence that maybe killing baby heirs is less blody in the long run.


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## Freija (Oct 29, 2008)

martryn said:


> ...she wasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he did on his deathbed.  And we're talking about a new born baby, son of his true love, who is no threat to him and that Ned was gonna raise as his own, not a delusional beggar king and his sister trying to raise an army to take back what is rightfully theirs.



...... He made it very clear he only sees dragonspawn...



edit:


The three last times he mentioned working on ASoIF






 <--- Really just said "I didn't finish the novel"


Last time is dated June 25:th

(he has mentioned ASoIF after this but only when he's selling some merchandise from the series


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## martryn (Oct 29, 2008)

> For starters, uber noble Rhaegar a rapist?



...huh.  Maybe.  I've never heard him really described like that except to Daenerys, and you can't really trust that.  I always thought that was weird, the two sides to his character.  Course, if Rhaegar was so noble, why did he whisk Lyanna away, ignoring his wife and children?  



> Secondly, he gave her flowers at that tourney.



I don't really count that as being evidence of his noble character.  I mean, he rode right past his wife to do it.  Unless we're talking about Elia as being a bad person, which wasn't the impression I got.  



> Third, Lyanna wnated Ned to potect Jon, not smother the sick abomination.



You can attribute that to a mother's love for her child.  Not all rape victims hate their children. 



> Fourth, all the girls were wet for Rhaegar, as evidenced by Cersei.



That must be something that was "evidenced" in the fourth book because I've not seen sign of it where I'm at yet. 

In fact, if Rhaegar is talked about more in depth in the fourth book, then I guess I'm just talking out my ass.  If Lyanna and Rhaegar were truly a couple committed to each other, or whatever, I guess that shines Robert in a new light. 



> And all heirs are threats, even if they're babies. Kids grow up. Didn't you read Sworn Sword? The whole Blackfyre rebellion was the result of a Tangeryn bastard, and he almost won. And Viserys and Danny evidence that maybe killing baby heirs is less blody in the long run.



This is the stuff I haven't read yet.  I'm still making progress through the third book, so...


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## Dionysus (Oct 29, 2008)

martryn said:


> Course, if Rhaegar was so noble, why did he whisk Lyanna away, ignoring his wife and children?


Prophecy.  Rhaegar was a scholar until he read about a prophecy, then took up fighting.  It follows that he likely courted Lyanna under the same idea.  (Doesn't rule out rape.)




> That must be something that was "evidenced" in the fourth book because I've not seen sign of it where I'm at yet.


Cersei is a POV.  Cersei definitely didn't think bad of Rhaegar.  Thinking he was the perfect man or something.

I trust the opinion of people like Barristan Selmy when it comes to Rhaegar's character.


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## martryn (Oct 30, 2008)

> Prophecy. Rhaegar was a scholar until he read about a prophecy, then took up fighting. It follows that he likely courted Lyanna under the same idea. (Doesn't rule out rape.)



Huh.  I suppose this is the same prophesy that the fire bitch is talking about and considers Stannis to be the one to fulfill, huh?  



> Cersei is a POV. Cersei definitely didn't think bad of Rhaegar. Thinking he was the perfect man or something.
> 
> I trust the opinion of people like Barristan Selmy when it comes to Rhaegar's character.



See, haven't had a Cersei POV yet, I don't think.  And I can't remember if Selmy has been around much since the first book, and I can't remember him mentioning Rhaegar, though I can't remember much.  This must all be stuff in the fourth book.  I'm getting closer to starting that one though.  

I'm getting my opinion of Rhaegar only from the like of characters we've seen.  And even when Arstan tells Dany about him it's not always in the best light, at least not from where I'm standing.


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## Freija (Oct 30, 2008)

Barristan so far has made no attempts to lie about a personality to Daenerys.


----------



## martryn (Oct 30, 2008)

> Barristan so far has made no attempts to lie about a personality to Daenerys.



Huh, so Arstan is Barristan.  See, that's more info I didn't know yet.  Wow, I can't believe I didn't see that.  I knew Arstan was someone we were supposed to know, but I hadn't really given it much thought.  God, that makes me feel like an idiot.


----------



## Freija (Oct 30, 2008)

xD Sorry for spoiling Martryn =/


----------



## martryn (Oct 30, 2008)

Meh, no worries.  Now I get to go back and reread all the Dany chapters in this book in a new light.  Like I said, I knew he was someone we were supposed to know, or he was more than who he said he was, but I didn't make the obvious connection between Barristan and Arstan.  I mean, that is fucking obvious, and I'm an idiot for not knowing that.  Especially in the last chapter when he was telling Dany about "some other knight in the Kingsguard" who won the tourney at Storm's End.  I mean, I was looking for a connection between him and another knight in Aerys's old Kingsguard and didn't get it!  

Course, in my defense, I guess I didn't think Barristan could travel that far, or hook up with Dany so quickly.  I guess he had the entire second book to do it, though.


----------



## Freija (Oct 30, 2008)

Barristan finds what Barristan wants.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 30, 2008)

martryn said:


> And even when Arstan tells Dany about him it's not always in the best light, at least not from where I'm standing.


As I remember it, the worst quality Barristan ever admitted in Rhaegar was some melancholy and introversion.



martryn said:


> I guess he had the entire second book to do it, though.


He also knew where to begin looking for her, so the book's worth of travel was enough.

And the end of ASOS makes me think someone in King's Landing may have helped him with his decision.  Mostly speculation.


----------



## Freija (Oct 30, 2008)

Rhaegar doesn't seem like the raping type to me.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 30, 2008)

i agree. he definetly isn't the raping type. 

i wonder if things would have played out differently if they announced they were married or going to be married.


----------



## martryn (Oct 31, 2008)

> As I remember it, the worst quality Barristan ever admitted in Rhaegar was some melancholy and introversion.



Well, he always seemed hesitant to correct Dany's perception of her brother.  I get the impression that he's trying to protect her image of him as best as he can without outright lying.  

Course, thinking of prophecy, and the prophecy that Rhaegar must have read, I'm wondering if he knew that perhaps Jon Snow was the prince of... whatever... prophecy, I guess, or something, and knew what he had to do to create him, as in who he had to impregnate or something along those lines.  I'm thinking something similar to the Bene Gesserit breeding to create the Kwisatz Haderach.


----------



## Freija (Oct 31, 2008)

Well, in that house Rhaegar tells Dany of the Song of Ice And Fire.


And I wonder how Rhaegar felt towards his fathers crazy acts, like Rickard Stark and Brandon.


----------



## Felix (Oct 31, 2008)

All this Rhaegar talk makes me have a tribute to him (As in, having an Avatar&Signature set of him)

Even though he is dead, most people sympathize with him


----------



## martryn (Oct 31, 2008)

> Well, in that house Rhaegar tells Dany of the Song of Ice And Fire.



Damn, you're right.  Time to go back to the second book and read a bit again.  I need to know exactly what was said.


----------



## Freija (Oct 31, 2008)

I liked Rhaegar, but I liked Robb more T_T FUCKING FREYS!


----------



## martryn (Oct 31, 2008)

> but I liked Robb more T_T FUCKING FREYS!



I knew it!  I mean, the fucking heir married into the Lannister house.  How can he not realize that going there is fucking suicide?  I mean, holy shit.  Only figures that's how he's going to die.


----------



## Freija (Oct 31, 2008)

Sometimes I just don't realize you're not there yet T_T

I'll spoiler tag the rest of it 
*Spoiler*: __ 



And what they do to his wolfs head and his body, FUCKING ROOSE BOLTON!

Arya shall torture him slowly with her assassin skills and make him cry for forgiveness, and the entire line of Freys shall die out!

I'm just mostly sad that Tyrion got Tywin and not a Stark.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 31, 2008)

Martryn, finish the third bloody book.

There was a vision or a dream about a blue rose growing out of a giant wall of ice.  I think it was Dany who had it.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 31, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Sometimes I just don't realize you're not there yet T_T
> 
> I'll spoiler tag the rest of it
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



i would love it if arya tortured roose bolton   She hated him anyway, even without him betraying robb. fuck the freys too. i hate all of them. i hope the old man is alive while he watches his family get decimated.

I liked that actually. Tyrion put up with shit from tywin his whole life, it was high time he paid him back. an arrow in the gut did it nicely.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> Martryn, finish the third bloody book.
> 
> There was a vision or a dream about a blue rose growing out of a giant wall of ice.  I think it was Dany who had it.


I'm soon there, re-reading book two as we speak (slightly  hungover, but it works)



fireball said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm just saying that the "other side" of the Starks have gotten all meaningful kills, Eddard, Robb, Bran and Rickon (Not for real, but still), Catelyn, Winterfell has burned to the ground and alike, and they haven't gotten anyone important really, and now the Lannisters get yet another important kill, one of their own 


I just re-read AFFC and remembered how much I loved the last line in the second Arya chapter "Are you hungry?"

"Yes, but not for food" gives me the feeling of how dark Arya has become really, she's sliced throats, killed people, stolen things, lied, and the list goes on, she's grown the most throughout the books if you ask me.


----------



## Lord Yu (Nov 1, 2008)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Which is why she's my favorite character.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime, Davos, Dany and Theon. <3


Bran is close to the top, but he needs his got damn legs back already.

I'm really getting tired of hearing "HODOR!"


----------



## Nakor (Nov 1, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Her and Jon i'd say have grown the most since the beginning. Her life was alittle tougher though since she didn't have anyone to support her most of the time. jon at least had comrades.





Amamiya said:


> Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime, Davos, Dany and Theon. <3
> 
> 
> Bran is close to the top, but he needs his got damn legs back already.
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



You like Theon?!? Why? He took over winterfell and eventually lead it to destruction.

Bran will become badass soon. just you wait 

Hodor fucking awesome!


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah, but Jon was taken for a turn cloak, he had to make new friends he knew he would have to betray and kill. True though Arya had it rougher, but still. They have it hard in their own way. Arya also needs to find Nymeria again.


Why I like Theon, well he did do some bad stuff, but he could never bring himself to harm Bran and Rickon, that impression I got, he wants to be a good lord but fails due to his ways. All in all I see him as a good person just going bad ways about everything.






Also I re-read book two and noticed how the Undying Ones are saying "One of Three" children that were born by Rhaegar, but she only knows Viserys, so there is the proof that there is a third Targaryen child out there, and the image she sees straight after that is a wall of ice, obviously The Wall, and out of it grows a small blue flower (Jon being the flower?)


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 1, 2008)

Blue roses were Lyanna's favourite, I think.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

Didn't Rhaegar give her a blue rose ?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 1, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> Blue roses were Lyanna's favourite, I think.


Did Lyanna happen to have a case of miniature glass animals?


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

I don't think so :S Why ?


----------



## Dream Brother (Nov 1, 2008)

<3 _The Glass Menagerie_.

I instantly thought of that too, when I saw that blue roses detail.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

The Glass Menagerie ?  


You mean like _Beauty and the Beast_?


----------



## Dream Brother (Nov 1, 2008)

There's a character in that play called Laura, who is given the nickname of 'Blue Roses' by another character. Interestingly, she also serves as the 'sister figure', and there's a certain sense of tragedy connected to her life.

Anyway, it's a great play, and I'd definitely recommend it.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

That sounds like something I could roll with 

And now I see why you thought of that play when we were talking about 'Blue roses' and Lyanna.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 1, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Arya was also younger too, jon was technically a man at that point. arya definetly had a rougher life, but jon isn't too far behind because of what you said. pretending to be a turn coat and killilng one of his own really took its toll on him emotionally. their rough life is why they are so awesome i think.






Amamiya said:


> Didn't Rhaegar give her a blue rose ?



yes he did. at the tourney at harrenhal i believe.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

So the blue flower growing out of the wall is yet another hint that he is the child of Lyanna.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 1, 2008)

yup. with all these hints, its no wonder that it is such a popular theory.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

Only way he could be any clearer would be if he said it in an interview


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## Nakor (Nov 1, 2008)

didn't he say something about wishing he didn't include a scene or something of the sort? i think i remember you saying something like that earlier in the thread.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

I haven't, but it's possible he did


----------



## Nakor (Nov 1, 2008)

are you sure? i really thought you did. 

i'm too lazy to go back and look for it. it might not have been refering to jon's parentage.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

I might have, I remember things people write far better than what I write myself


----------



## Nakor (Nov 1, 2008)

i just skimmed the last 10 pages or so of the thread and i couldn't find you saying it. my bad.


----------



## Freija (Nov 1, 2008)

No worries, everyone can make mistakes =)


----------



## Nakor (Nov 1, 2008)

i wonder where i read that at then...

has anyone played the role-playing game?


----------



## Lord Yu (Nov 1, 2008)

I've only indulged in the books.


----------



## thebigfanofnaruto (Nov 1, 2008)

Nice poem!


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## Lord Yu (Nov 1, 2008)

If you're talking about my sig it's a song and one of my favorites.<3


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## martryn (Nov 2, 2008)

> Martryn, finish the third bloody book.



I'm working on it.  I've got a lot going on.  I had to go to a god damn funeral, and then Halloween, and today I spent mostly on Fallout 3.  I'll finish it eventually.  I'm not bed ridden anymore, so I'm not reading as much.


----------



## Watchman (Nov 2, 2008)

*subscribes to thread*

Can't believe I've never come here before. I absolutely love the ASOIAF series - the only other Fantasy series I've read that comes close to ASOIAF in my estimation is A Prince of Nothing.


*Spoiler*: _Potential Spoiler, and since the guy posting above me hasn't read third book yet, I'll tag this._ 



I just wish Oberyn Martell lived longer... He's one of my favourite characters, for his brief appearance...


----------



## Freija (Nov 2, 2008)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah, I felt he was awesome too, then he died -_-;


----------



## martryn (Nov 2, 2008)

Uhm... I honestly can't help reading spoilers.  I don't mind being spoiled in the least.  I mean, I don't want to know what happens, necessarily, but having small bits and pieces here and there really make me want to read more because I know what I'm building up to.


----------



## Freija (Nov 2, 2008)

Hmmm, it seems that according to this Yah, hoppin on that chatzy real quick. <--- Jon is one year older than Dany, so when was this Tower of Joy deal.


In another thread however this is mentioned about Jons age




> Jon
> Arya tells us of Yoren’s visit to see her father on the same night she tells him of the conversation she overhears earlier in the day between Varys and Illyrio. Because we know this is still in Year 298 from Varys comment about Margaery’s age, and we know Yoren travels south with Tyrion after Jon turns fifteen because Jon thinks of his fifteenth name day having come and gone when talking to Tyrion about Benjen being gone too long - all of which obviously takes place before Tyrion and Yoren leave the Wall - we therefore know Jon’s fifteenth name day must fall in year 298 and he is born in the Year 283.** It also tells us that Margaery’s name day falls after Jon’s during the year.
> **An important note here is that Jon maybe the one character who doesn’t know his true name day. We don’t know if the day he celebrates as his name day is, in fact, the true date. If all the speculation about Jon being the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar turns out to be true, then Ned has a powerful motive to lie about Jon’s name day. It would not be helpful in trying to keep such a secret for Jon’s name day to fall on the anniversary of Lyanna’s death. It just might make suspicious minds (aka Varys) begin to look further into Jon’s origins. If this speculation is true, however, it can only mean an adjustment of Jon’s name day from a few weeks to possibly a month. Any longer and we strain the believability of a lie to cover Jon’s real age.
> 
> Also of note is Catelyn obviously thinks Jon is younger than Robb and this would only be possible if his name day has been celebrated after Robb’s all the last fourteen years. Catelyn tells us as much when she thinks of Ned as a man with “a man’s needs,” who conceived Jon while away warring in the south after they are wed and Robb is conceived. We can therefore be certain Jon’s name day celebration falls after Robb’s.




Also found this on Wiki



> Eddard found Lyanna dying in a "*bed of blood*" and clutching a withered wreath of *blue roses*. She forced him to make a promise to her, the nature of which is unknown to the reader, but which haunted Eddard for the rest of his life. She was buried at Winterfell, in the ancestral crypts of House Stark.


 Once again it's hinted that she died in childbirth and her child might be on the wall Referring to the blue rose that Dany saw growing on the wall of ice right after they mentioned "child of three" suggesting there is a missing Targaryen somewhere, unless they mean Viserys, Dany and Rhaegar, but I however believe they meant of Rhaegars children, Aegon, Rhaenys and Jon


Also will Blackfyre (one of the Targaryen Valyrian sword which was lost after the Blackfyre rebellion) return ?



*Spoiler*: _A Dance With Dragons, Jon Snow 2 spoilers_ 



Jon hangs Janos Slynt from the Wall for disobedience.


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 5, 2008)

I reread the first book, almost done with the second
When Dany goes to the undying and hears the child of three part, i think it just means her and her brothers, nothing about jon, at least thats what i think.


----------



## Freija (Nov 6, 2008)

Well, the blue rose in the wall still suggests Lyanna.


----------



## martryn (Nov 6, 2008)

Ok, I just got to the part where Bran meets Sam.  I have to say that Bran is turning into my favorite character.  His ability to take over Holdor's body is fucking fantastic.  Plus, talk about an interesting storyline!


----------



## Freija (Nov 6, 2008)

I assume that's the same way Howland Reed helped Eddard against The Sword of the Morning


----------



## martryn (Nov 6, 2008)

> I assume that's the same way Howland Reed helped Eddard against The Sword of the Morning



Howland Reed took over his body?  I don't really see that.


----------



## Freija (Nov 6, 2008)

How do you not see that ? What could a short Crannogman do against the Sword of the Morning to stop his sword from killing Eddard otherwise ?


edit: Also if anyone is feeling the itch to write might I suggest you write a summary of Jon's chapters in A Game of Thrones 


*Analysing the entire book and I need a summary of every POV characters stories, and well, I don't feel to write Jon's so any help would be appreciated*


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 6, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Well, the blue rose in the wall still suggests Lyanna.



Yeah, i understood that. I wonder when Jon well get away from the wall, and maybe he'll meet dany?


----------



## martryn (Nov 6, 2008)

> How do you not see that ? What could a short Crannogman do against the Sword of the Morning to stop his sword from killing Eddard otherwise ?



Maybe he was just good.  And quick or something.  I mean, they did outnumber them.  It just doesn't seem very honorable.  

I'd love to write a summary of the first book, but I left it with my father in the hopes that he might give the series a try.


----------



## Freija (Nov 6, 2008)

=/ I'm currently working on Eddard, Bran, Arya and Catelyn chapters 
the prolouge is done


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 7, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> How do you not see that ? What could a short Crannogman do against the Sword of the Morning to stop his sword from killing Eddard otherwise ?


Assuming he fought with a net and spear/trident, he could have been quite useful.  If anything, it's an unorthodox way of fighting that could throw even the most experienced fighter off.  Since all it takes is one mistake to create a fatal opening, having a net impede you could spell death.  

Similarly, lefties can also have an advantage in fighting.  Lefty swordsmen fight many more righties than righty swordsmen fight lefties.

It makes sense that Howland lived too, since he'd be more of a support fighter, letting the swordsmen at it.


----------



## Freija (Nov 7, 2008)

True, but considering he's very open to his child's powers, not to mention that Eddard got sad thinking of the way he was saved by Howland it's not a stretch to imagine that Howland can some voodoo too.


----------



## martryn (Nov 7, 2008)

I bet Howland can work some serious voodoo, but I believe it's a matter of honor here.  You don't kill the greatest knight of your time by taking over his body and forcing him to die.


----------



## Freija (Nov 7, 2008)

Then why would Eddard be that saddened by the memory itself ?


----------



## martryn (Nov 7, 2008)

Because a lot of good men died there?  Because his meeting of Howland Reed occurred roughly the same time Lyanna was kidnapped?


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 7, 2008)

The Reeds are wargs?  I certainly don't remember reading _that_.  When was it stated that either Jojen, Meera, or Howland have the same ability that Bran does?  I know Jojen has the green sight or something, but I don't remember body snatching.

Only the Starks have exhibited this ability so far.  Which makes me wonder how far each of them will develop it.

Also, stealing the body of a human was implied to involve simple minds.  So far there is no evidence that anyone exists who can steal a random human's body.  Though, perhaps I'm missing some long forgotten passage.


----------



## Freija (Nov 7, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> The Reeds are wargs?  I certainly don't remember reading _that_.  When was it stated that either Jojen, Meera, or Howland have the same ability that Bran does?  I know Jojen has the green sight or something, but I don't remember body snatching.
> 
> Only the Starks have exhibited this ability so far.  Which makes me wonder how far each of them will develop it.
> 
> Also, stealing the body of a human was implied to involve simple minds.  So far there is no evidence that anyone exists who can steal a random human's body.  Though, perhaps I'm missing some long forgotten passage.



Varamyr Sixskins have show us that ability too, and I never said he was a warg.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 7, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Varamyr Sixskins have show us that ability too, and I never said he was a warg.


Ah, yeah.  He did.  But no where does it state that the Reeds are wargs or skinchangers or whatever you want to call it.

They may be related, but Jojen having greensight does not imply he's a skinchanger.  Saying that Howland used this ability on a human of sound mind to win a sword fight is a rather outlandish theory.


----------



## Freija (Nov 7, 2008)

I never stated that Jojen was a warg, I said that maybe he has it so it's not that far of a stretch to imagine his father might have "stronger" abilities, like skinchanging.


----------



## martryn (Nov 7, 2008)

I think I remember one time when Jojen pointedly said that he was _not_ a warg.  Though I think we've already established that.

EDIT:  And let's not forget that if Reed were the knight at Harrenhal that rode against the three knights and then told them to scold their squires or whatever, that it shows he has some natural talent at knighthoodish-like stuff.  That might explain, a little better, why he survived the fight.


----------



## Freija (Nov 7, 2008)

Indeed, however Jojen(Or was it his sister?)

explicitly said that the crannogman was afraid of making a fool of himself if he entered because he was weak?


----------



## martryn (Nov 7, 2008)

But there is little question that the knight was indeed him.  He was small of stature, wore pieced together armor, and disappeared after unhorsing the three he wanted to unhorse.  Unless he animated the armor or something....

Maybe he was just being modest.


----------



## Freija (Nov 7, 2008)

Perhaps, or the gods indeed granted him strength and armour.


----------



## martryn (Nov 7, 2008)

If the gods granted him armor, wouldn't it at least all match?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 7, 2008)

martryn said:


> If the gods granted him armor, wouldn't it at least all match?


Depends on which gods. The Seven Gods would mean seven different opinions on what to give him.


----------



## martryn (Nov 8, 2008)

> Depends on which gods. The Seven Gods would mean seven different opinions on what to give him.



Ha ha, good answer.  Wonder if bits of it were pink and had frills.  But I'm pretty sure it'd be the old gods regardless.


----------



## Freija (Nov 8, 2008)

It was the old gods and perhaps they just enchanted every piece of scrap armour he found ?


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 12, 2008)

Holy fuck, dudes.  They're going to film the pilot for the HBO adaptation of the series.  Meaning that it if it goes well, then there will be an order for a whole season.

So  not too long ago.  This is the next best thing to "ADWD is done!"  (Third best thing would be "I'm not going to waste another minute writing Wild Cards!")

 is an article on it.


----------



## Freija (Nov 12, 2008)

That's awesome 

But like you said I'd rather have some news about ADWD .


----------



## martryn (Nov 12, 2008)

I really have to get HBO now.


----------



## Freija (Nov 12, 2008)

I wish I lived in the US so I could help push the ratings up when it shows on TV, not just download it.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 12, 2008)

I'm hoping this gives him the passion he needs to finish.  (As I said pages back, I think he's been more excited over other projects.)

A worry I have, when reading the news article, is that Martin will now tailor some scenes so they don't go beyond what is doable (so, within budget) for HBO.  Martin says the script is faithful, but I hope the script writers--if need be--are the only ones to change things to suit TV.

'Tis a small worry, but with three or more books left and all this delaying...

Edit: Martryn, let them know why you subscribe, if you do get HBO.  Unfortunately, I already have the Canadian equivalent.


----------



## Freija (Nov 12, 2008)

I have suspected for awhile that George doesn't update anything about ADWD on his blog any more because it is closed to finished, however that's just a guess on my part. And Martin knows that if he does what you described Dion many fans would be very upset.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 12, 2008)

Well, the fans would never know if he tailored the rest of the rest of the books to better fit TV.  If he did, that means the scenes would have been more epic, grand, etc.  But, I'd only have suspicions.

I actually trust GRRM when he wrote that he'd update when he's finished ADWD.  (He'll get a lot of emails and such off his back.)  He also said he'd do the same with news on the HBO series, and he was true to his word.


----------



## Freija (Nov 12, 2008)

I mean, previously he said what he'd done or so like every week on his blog, then he suddenly stopped, I perceive this him keeping us in the dark that it's pretty much done.


Btw I just realized, Robb is the only Stark (except Rickon) who we've never gotten a POV from.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 12, 2008)

He probably stopped due to lack of progress, or not wanting to detail the progress due to fan wangst.

We also didn't get a POV from Benjen.


----------



## Freija (Nov 12, 2008)

Good point, still Robb is one of the few characters I can complain about not getting a POV of


----------



## martryn (Nov 12, 2008)

> A worry I have, when reading the news article, is that Martin will now tailor some scenes so they don't go beyond what is doable (so, within budget) for HBO. Martin says the script is faithful, but I hope the script writers--if need be--are the only ones to change things to suit TV.



Well, it has to be done to air on television.  It can't be as bad as what I hear they turned Wizard's First Rule into. 



> Edit: Martryn, let them know why you subscribe, if you do get HBO. Unfortunately, I already have the Canadian equivalent.



Yeah, I will. 



> Btw I just realized, Robb is the only Stark (except Rickon) who we've never gotten a POV from.



Since I'm still on the 3rd book (I'm almost done, I swear!  Fallout 3 has distracted me!), I can only go off of what I've heard.  I've heard that the 4th and 5th books cross a 5 year time gap, and if that's the case, I think Rickon will be old enough by the 6th book, or even in the 5th book, to have his own POV.  We've gotten them from almost every other major player, and he is a Stark.  At least with Robb we had his mom's point of view to flesh his character out a little bit.  We've been deprived that now with Bran and Rickon splitting up.


----------



## Freija (Nov 12, 2008)

Nope, they don't cover five years from what I've understood from reading it, perhaps one.


----------



## martryn (Nov 12, 2008)

Huh... I could have sworn I saw something saying that there was going to be a five year jump in the series, and Martin was going to cover it in flashbacks in the next book, but then thought that would create too many flashbacks, so he decided to just go ahead and write the damn book.  Maybe book six is the five year jump book.  And then seven finishes the series?


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 12, 2008)

He scrapped the time skip idea.  It was too hard for him to finish AFFC with it, too much needed to be told.  All the flashbacks were terrible to read, he says.  (After scrapping that idea, he then realised the book was too long, so he split it in two.  He's been working on the remains of the other chapters ever since.)

He might be able to do a skip in Westeros (sans the Wall).  Depending on how he writes ADWD, he could go well beyond where we left off in AFFC.  The Others' story line, and Dany's will then be nicely advanced, and we can pick up in the political swamp of Westeros in the sixth book.

In regards to the TV series, yes, they will have to alter things to make it a TV series.  I do not see Martin having to do that to his books, and hope he doesn't.  Though, he did write for a TV show before, so I can see him thinking about it from now on. :/

Say the Wall is crumbling and the Others march through with thousands.  I want to read about it in the books, and not just a retelling from a witness like what would happen in the show, due to budget constraints.  It's probably a foolish worry, but still...


----------



## martryn (Nov 12, 2008)

> He scrapped the time skip idea. It was too hard for him to finish AFFC with it, too much needed to be told. All the flashbacks were terrible to read, he says. (After scrapping that idea, he then realised the book was too long, so he split it in two. He's been working on the remains of the other chapters ever since.)
> 
> He might be able to do a skip in Westeros (sans the Wall). Depending on how he writes ADWD, he could go well beyond where we left off in AFFC. The Others' story line, and Dany's will then be nicely advanced, and we can pick up in the political swamp of Westeros in the sixth book.



Huh.  Well, I was looking forward to a skip.  Make some of the characters just old enough, like Bran and Arya, while keeping the older characters still pretty young.  Oh well.  It'll be great however he writes it, if he ever gets around to finishing it. 



> Say the Wall is crumbling and the Others march through with thousands. I want to read about it in the books, and not just a retelling from a witness like what would happen in the show, due to budget constraints. It's probably a foolish worry, but still...



I don't know.  They can do some crazy things with special effects nowadays.  I'm not too worried about the budget for the show.  And even if the effects are lacking, it'll still be a great story to see played out.


----------



## Freija (Nov 12, 2008)

If they ever get to book five in the series, I expect their budget to be much bigger.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 12, 2008)

i expect book five to do great in sales, so I think that will help rejuvenate the series and bring more money in for the TV show.


----------



## martryn (Nov 12, 2008)

I have gotten stuck on a Sansa chapter.  I'm trying to force my way through it, but... it's so fucking hard.  I just really don't give a shit about what happens to her.


----------



## Lord Yu (Nov 12, 2008)

I made it through easily with ADD. You have no excuse.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 12, 2008)

Sansa becomes more interesting as the books go on.  She's more a sympathetic character now than she ever was at the beginning.  That said, she still have a LOT to fucking learn.

Hm.  Where was it that Lady died?  Was it around the Trident?  So, the Riverlands, right?  So, she was no longer a Stark after that, in a symbolic sense.  I think I might be seeing what GRRM was trying to say there now. ?


----------



## Dream Brother (Nov 12, 2008)

> Sansa becomes more interesting as the books go on. She's more a sympathetic character now than she ever was at the beginning. That said, she still have a LOT to fucking learn.



Very true.

I remember how irritated I used to feel while reading her chapters -- she seemed to epitomise naivety -- but I have to say that I've grown a lot more fond of her as she's developed. She still has a long way to go, but she's getting there slowly.


----------



## Crowe (Nov 12, 2008)

I will never forgive her for what she did to Ned! *rage mode*


----------



## Nakor (Nov 12, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> Very true.
> 
> I remember how irritated I used to feel while reading her chapters -- she seemed to epitomise naivety -- but I have to say that I've grown a lot more fond of her as she's developed. She still has a long way to go, but she's getting there slowly.



She is still the worst stark, along with catelyn.


----------



## martryn (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't know why there is all this Catelyn hate.  Other than her rationalized hated for Tyrion for a while, and her not liking the reminder of Ned's illicit union.  I honestly don't mind her as much as I do Sansa.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 13, 2008)

i know there are several reasons why i hate her, but i can't remember any of them now since i haven't read books 2-4 in a few years. i just remember that she was really annoying.


----------



## Freija (Nov 13, 2008)

mister. pek said:


> I will never forgive her for what she did to Ned! *rage mode*



That is one chapter, while re-reading book one I've never been able to re-read I get mad .


That dumb bitch betrays her own father.

And the fact that she never blamed Joffrey for anything, EVEN WHEN HE GOT HER WOLF KILLED!

She was just like "My Prince, my prince, my prince"

Fucking naive cunt I say.


----------



## martryn (Nov 13, 2008)

Well, I did some serious reading tonight.  Almost done.  I got to where Stannis rides against the wildlings at the Wall, and Arya boards the ship going to Braavos.  I'm so close, and so worried about Sandor Clegane and Tyrion.  I mean, they're not my favorite characters, I don't guess, but I've come to really like the two of them.  And it looks as if Clegane is dead now, after Arya left him under that tree, and it was such a lame way to die, if that were the case.  I hope he recovers on his own.


----------



## Freija (Nov 13, 2008)

Well 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hopefully he's alive, GRRM said he'd love to finish his story, however we have no confirmation he's alive, even his helm was stolen by some random bandit in the Brave Companions.


----------



## martryn (Nov 13, 2008)

On a different note, I'd like to perhaps see if anyone has any opinions on the fighting skill level of the characters in the series.  Like a ranking, so to speak.  I'm on this kick now because I always thought that Gregor Clegane was unbeatable and then that Martell guy gave him a fucking thrashing before getting stupid.  And people claim Arthur Dayne was amazing.  And Jaime and Brienne seem to be evenly matched, and I was surprised when Brienne beat Loras, and that Loras's brother is better than he is, etc.  

It'll all be speculation, of course, but I'd like others' opinions on it.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 13, 2008)

I think it was pretty obvious what happened to the Hound.


----------



## Freija (Nov 13, 2008)

Well, it is but what GRRM said about him kinda hints the other way.


I'd say that of the ones who lives (excluding chopped off arms)


Jaime 
Loras/Selmy
Gregor
Sandor
Brienne

However I believe that Arthur Dayne would take them all. Even Jaime, stuck up and proud as he is, speaks of him as a omnipotent being.


----------



## martryn (Nov 13, 2008)

See, I'm thinking that Loras, Jaime, and Brienne are all pretty equal in sword fighting strength.  Brienne bested Loras at the tournament before Renly died, and then fought Jaime almost to a standstill.  Course, Jaime was injured and out of practice, so...

But then Loras said that Garlan was a better sword that he was.  So I'd place Garlan on par with Jaime Lannister.  

Jaime/Garlan
Brienne slightly over Loras

Gregor is better than Sandor, I reckon, but I don't know how they compare with the above.  I guess both are better than Beric and Thoros.  

I don't know where Barristan would fit in, or Bronn.  

When Jaime was fighting Brienne he mentioned that she was stronger than he was, physically, and he thought that Greatjon Umber, Strongboar of Crakehall, and both Cleganes were as well, but he was thinking like he could still beat them all with speed and skill.  I don't know how to rate that, given it was from Jaime's POV and he's an arrogant ass, but still...


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 13, 2008)

How can you know what I think happened to the Hound when I didn't state it?  Anyways, that punk is obviously alive.

Edit: I can't make a ranking of fighters in this.  For one, it's pointless due to the "realism" factor where the best swordsman in the world can be tricked.  In real fights, anything goes.

One-on-one fights are better presented by tourney results.  I rather think there are a LOT of swordsmen with lots of skill, all around the globe.


----------



## Freija (Nov 13, 2008)

martryn said:


> See, I'm thinking that Loras, Jaime, and Brienne are all pretty equal in sword fighting strength.  Brienne bested Loras at the tournament before Renly died, and then fought Jaime almost to a standstill.  Course, Jaime was injured and out of practice, so...


Jaime had alcohol in his blood from over drinking before getting released, was a captive for months? Both hands chained together, weak from captivity, possibly sick from the cell even >_>

Brienne to be fair only won because she jumped from her horse on Loras.



> But then Loras said that Garlan was a better sword that he was.  So I'd place Garlan on par with Jaime Lannister.


We barely know anything of Garlan so placing him as 





> Jaime/Garlan


Is slightly unfair. I believe if anything Jaime so far has been the strongest sword fighter.


> Brienne slightly over Loras


Other way around, explained why she won above, not to mention it was not a sword fight they tourneyed in.


> Gregor is better than Sandor, I reckon, but I don't know how they compare with the above.  I guess both are better than Beric and Thoros.


Gregor has lost to Jaime many times before in tourneys, including swordfights.





> I don't know where Barristan would fit in, or Bronn.


Barristan won tourneys with his old age, and I recall he defeated Jaime in swordfight in a tourney recently. I may be wrong.





> When Jaime was fighting Brienne he mentioned that she was stronger than he was, physically, and he thought that Greatjon Umber, Strongboar of Crakehall, and both Cleganes were as well, but he was thinking like he could still beat them all with speed and skill.  I don't know how to rate that, given it was from Jaime's POV and he's an arrogant ass, but still...



Jaime said he was weak physically at the time as well from the captivity, and as mentioned earlier many other reasons.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 13, 2008)

Regardless of what you think of the lists and how futile they are...  Jaime is clearly NOT the best swordsman since he lost his sword hand.


----------



## Freija (Nov 13, 2008)

Like I said I excluded that fact 

However I have a question for all of you.


which character developed the most in A Game of Thrones  for my analysis of the book.


----------



## martryn (Nov 13, 2008)

> Edit: I can't make a ranking of fighters in this. For one, it's pointless due to the "realism" factor where the best swordsman in the world can be tricked. In real fights, anything goes.
> 
> One-on-one fights are better presented by tourney results. I rather think there are a LOT of swordsmen with lots of skill, all around the globe.



That's true to an extent, but there are certain tiers of fighters regardless.  If factors were equalized, in a fair fight, that sort of thing.  Plus, it's a fun bit of speculation.  I'm curious as to what would happen if say Bronn was Tyrion's champion instead of Prince Martell dude.   



> We barely know anything of Garlan



We know he's better than Loras and that Loras is pretty damn good.  I think we can safely place him close to Jaime, at least when Jaime was in his prime.  

I realize I'll probably find out in the fourth book, but I wonder if Jaime ever will learn to fight with his left hand, and how good he'll be.  

I suppose I can see Loras being better than Brienne.



> which character developed the most in A Game of Thrones



Of the POV characters I'd have to go with Daenerys.  She went from the quiet, subservient little sister to a strong warrior queen by the end of the book.  If you look at Arya and Jon, their circumstances changed a lot, but I don't think the characters themselves changed much.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 13, 2008)

Bronn utilised the "trick" factor that I talked about.  One-on-one a dirty fighter like him might be able to kill anybody.  Or, a smarter fighter might not bother to chase him around like that armoured knight did.

Daenerys or Jon.  Dany probably more than Jon, but I do think Jon changed a lot by the end.  Though, he develops more in subsequent books.


----------



## Freija (Nov 13, 2008)

Yeah, Jon and Arya didn't really develop too much until Clash of Kings, and I went with Daenerys myself, amazing development there.


----------



## Watchman (Nov 13, 2008)

I'd also have to go with Dany having the most character development in A Game of Thrones.


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 13, 2008)

Dany developed the most. She used to be scared of her brother, but she overcame that. She wasn't afraid when everyone left after her husband died, she thought she could defeat them. She started to develop into a leader, and i believe  she continues to develop into a strong leader.


----------



## Freija (Nov 13, 2008)

Hopefully she'll develop to a nice queen for Westeros.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 13, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Hopefully she'll develop to a nice queen for Westeros.


I think she will.

If any one character is safe from dying, I'd say Dany.

As for the sword fighting topic, I'd say Jaime(before he lost his hand) was at the top of the list, with selmy just below him.  As for who overall was the best swordsman, I'd say the sword of the morning. everyone praises him, including jaime.


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 13, 2008)

I think she will be the best ruler of westeros out of them all. Jon would be a good king as well. The rest are like meh.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 13, 2008)

i hope the kingsguard becomes badass again, like it was during the mad kings reign


----------



## martryn (Nov 13, 2008)

Now that everyone else is dead, seems obvious that Dany is the only real candidate for the throne.



> i hope the kingsguard becomes badass again, like it was during the mad kings reign



There are enough badass people to make it so, they just all need to be fighting on the same side.  

Here's a question: Who is your favorite support character in the series?  I'm talking non-POV characters.


----------



## jkingler (Nov 13, 2008)

> Now that everyone else is dead, seems obvious that Dany is the only real candidate for the throne.


And now that she's the only known living Targaryen, we may get some royals who aren't double-dipping in stagnant gene pools. Hybrid vigor!!! 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Or, if Jon is indeed a Targaryen, maybe his line is divergent enough that if he and Dany make babies, they won't ALL be insane. XD




As for the Kingsguard: Jaime One-Hand, The Redeemed, has all the makings of a badass Born-Again Knight.


----------



## martryn (Nov 13, 2008)

> And now that she's the only known living Targaryen, we may get some royals who aren't double-dipping in stagnant gene pools.



Maester Aemon died!?!?


----------



## jkingler (Nov 13, 2008)

I meant to include "of breeding age"...but didn't. XD


----------



## Freija (Nov 13, 2008)

The new kingsguard I suggest, Jaime (Yes I like the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and I believe he'll train his left arm in the fashion of Qhorin Halfhand), Ser Loras, Ser Garlan, Ser Selmy Barristan, Ser Jon Targaryen()


And it depends
when the book is done maybe Bran will be old enough, and even strong enough.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 14, 2008)

martryn said:


> Here's a question: Who is your favorite support character in the series?  I'm talking non-POV characters.


I would say but I don't think you've gotten to him yet.


----------



## Lord Yu (Nov 14, 2008)

martryn said:


> Maester Aemon died!?!?



Oh shit spoilers! But the man was like a thousand you could see it coming a mile away. This is why I finished the books before coming into this thread.


----------



## martryn (Nov 14, 2008)

> I would say but I don't think you've gotten to him yet.



Go ahead and say.  I'll get to him soon enough.  And if he's a secondary, non-POV character, I'll know to keep an eye out for him.  



> Oh shit spoilers! But the man was like a thousand you could see it coming a mile away. This is why I finished the books before coming into this thread.



Yeah, I figured he would die soon as well.  I don't really mind the spoiler.


----------



## jkingler (Nov 14, 2008)

Mine is Jaqen. Mostly because of how awesome he is. He's not exactly a deep character, from what we've seen so far, but if the theories are true, he could be...


----------



## martryn (Nov 14, 2008)

> Mine is Jaqen. Mostly because of how awesome he is. He's not exactly a deep character, from what we've seen so far, but if the theories are true, he could be...



He's tied for mine.  Him and Bronn.  I really like the sellsword.  

What theories are these?


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 14, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Oh shit spoilers! But the man was like a thousand you could see it coming a mile away. This is why I finished the books before coming into this thread.


Holy shit, dude.  Kingler recovered nicely from his spoiler, then you have to come in and confirm it.


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

jkingler said:


> Mine is Jaqen. Mostly because of how awesome he is. He's not exactly a deep character, from what we've seen so far, but if the theories are true, he could be...



I love Jaqen, but what are the theories ? The whole Syrio Forel thing ? I doubt it.


----------



## jkingler (Nov 14, 2008)

Re: The blown save: I know, Dio. I know. 

Re; Jaqen: Syrio Forel. The guy in The Citadel (I think that's where they were...). And many, many more (possibly, maybe, probably not butitwouldbecool)!


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

I will quote my favourite post about the subject.




> I like to believe Syrio is dead.
> 
> I think storywise, the character outlived his usefulness. I hate it when an author clings to an unnecessary character out of sentimental attachment. Syrio was a great character and layed the foundation for Arya's success as a fighter. She still recants his proverbs. The perfect ending to a great character. Master sacrifices himself to save the pupil and perpetuate his teachings. The best fighter in poor circumstances loses out. Too proud to run, not equipped to win, but Arya doesn't see him die, so he stays elevated. Based on Martin's style, I believe this, and like it, as much as I hate it.
> 
> It seems in order for Syrio to be alive, we need to stretch and reach for some intricate, complex set of circumstances in perfect allignment and timing. I don't buy it. That would be more the style of high fantasy *where good guys don't die*, or some *mainstream RPG* where the departed reappears to save the day. I think fans are suffering from what many people who lose loved ones *suffer from; denial.*


----------



## jkingler (Nov 14, 2008)

> where good guys don't die


Though some "good guys" certainly do die, we have several who survive (or revive) when their certain deaths are apparent. So I say: if he's dead, awesome. If not, potential awesome.


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

Come on, that's probably the most far-fetched theory I've ever heard really.


Another fine quote:



> Another general point, Trant had already decided for Syrio to die, he ordered the Red Cloaks to kill him. So there's really not much chance that Syrio was taken alive.


----------



## jkingler (Nov 14, 2008)

Where characters thought to be dead are concerned, much stranger things have happened. I don't feel that his survival is either necessary or certain, and I'm not even sure that I'd like how it was handled, if he were to show up again. I just don't think it can be ruled out, given his skills and his ties to Braavos. 

Note: Nothing can be ruled out until the last book is written, so don't shit bricks - shit gold like Tywin!


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

On that I will say what Tyrion said "Look at that, he didn't shit gold"


----------



## jkingler (Nov 14, 2008)

Well, not that time. Everyone has an off day.


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

That's such a lame comeback it crosses the barrier and goes back to good.


----------



## martryn (Nov 14, 2008)

Wow, never heard the Syrio theory.  I was thinking about how he could still be alive just the other day.  As j said, we didn't see him actually die, so he could have somehow gotten away or have been taken alive.  

I, personally, think he's dead.  I don't want him to be, but it doesn't change the fact that he likely is.


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

"The First man of Bravvoos does not flee" was what he said, so he didn't "get away"


Not to mention that Jaqen was to be sent to the Wall by Ned's order meaning that he was apprehended prior to Syrio's death.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 14, 2008)

posting in after a long long time ... (been busy with new job and settling in a new city)

Has the fifth book released been released by any chance ?


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

Hahahahahha, good one Shanks


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 14, 2008)

martryn said:


> Go ahead and say.  I'll get to him soon enough.  And if he's a secondary, non-POV character, I'll know to keep an eye out for him.


Well, he's not much to watch/read about though. I like the kindly man.


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

The kindly man is scary  he fucking 
*Spoiler*: __ 



blinded Arya.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 14, 2008)

If man he truly be.





Amamiya said:


> The kindly man is scary  he fucking
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



It's her own damn fault. Also, the Many-Faced God did it.  The kindly man is too... too... kind to have.
It's possibly the next step in training.


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

Would a kindly old man have worms in his face


----------



## martryn (Nov 14, 2008)

Oh, I can't wait to meet him now!


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

He's creepy and scary!


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 14, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Would a kindly old man have worms in his face


Would a weaselly cat eat said face worms?


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes        !


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 14, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> He's creepy and scary!



Sounds like my kind of guy


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

He's like 70


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 14, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> He's like 70


Or is (s)he? ?


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

Well, he showed himself as a man.


----------



## jkingler (Nov 14, 2008)

Like fine wines, creepy and scary men improve with age.


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

You look at things from a too bright sunshiny angle jkingler


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 14, 2008)

If he has lots of money then i don't mind.. Is he rich?

well, i am like 100 pages away from finishing the second book again. Rereading the part where Ygritte tells Jon a story about Bael and a past Lord Stark of Winterfell. That tied in with the theory of Jon being Rhaegar's son make it seem more likely that Jon will become a ruler and/or King.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 14, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Well, he showed himself as a man.


So did Jaqen, but he's not so old looking anymore, now is he?


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

Jaqen was not old from start he was pretty much middle aged.



> If he has lots of money then i don't mind.. Is he rich?
> 
> well, i am like 100 pages away from finishing the second book again. Rereading the part where Ygritte tells Jon a story about Bael and a past Lord Stark of Winterfell. That tied in with the theory of Jon being Rhaegar's son make it seem more likely that Jon will become a ruler and/or King.


That story was a lie proclaimed by Jon as there was no woman from Winterfell who committed suicide.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 14, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Jaqen was not old from start he was pretty much middle aged.


Or was he? 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Plus, the alchemist was pretty old sounding.


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 14, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Jaqen was not old from start he was pretty much middle aged.
> 
> That story was a lie proclaimed by Jon as there was no woman from Winterfell who committed suicide.



Does he say that right after she tells the story? I can't remember that...too bad because i did rather like the idea of it being true.


----------



## Freija (Nov 14, 2008)

He said outright "It's not true" and thinks to himself _this time he knew it for sure_ right before saying it and just after she told hhim about her jumping the tower and then some convo follows.


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 14, 2008)

Ah okay. Thats too bad. 
It is kind of interesting because the blue flower is also metioned in the story, which is why i thought it to be true.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 14, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> The new kingsguard I suggest, Jaime (Yes I like the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and I believe he'll train his left arm in the fashion of Qhorin Halfhand), Ser Loras, Ser Garlan, Ser Selmy Barristan, Ser Jon Targaryen()
> 
> 
> And it depends
> when the book is done maybe Bran will be old enough, and even strong enough.



aren't there 7 kingsguards? your missing one/two. how could bran be a kingsguard if he can't fight with a sword? also, i don't see jon being a kingsguard, i see him being a king if he is targaryen. at the beginning there was aerys and his two sisters who ruled. i think it will be jon and dany who rule.



jkingler said:


> Mine is Jaqen. Mostly because of how awesome he is. He's not exactly a deep character, from what we've seen so far, but if the theories are true, he could be...


i liked jaqen the best too. I hope he is alive somewhere and we meet him again. him being the kindly man would be pretty awesome.


----------



## jkingler (Nov 14, 2008)

It would indeed. And it wouldn't yield any unhappy Mamma Mia's from Amamiya, if Jaqen were the kindly man, as opposed to being Syrio.

Not that they are mutually exclusive.

Jaqen could be both, and then some. He's awesome enough that he could be everyone, really.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 14, 2008)

jkingler said:


> Jaqen could be both, and then some. He's awesome enough that he could be everyone, really.



haha. thats why making predictions about him is great, he could be any number of minor characters we have met.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

Ummm... Jaqen is at the Citadel...


----------



## martryn (Nov 15, 2008)

On the plus side I finished book 3.  On the... other side... Catelyn is still alive?  I mean, I knew you guys were talking about zombie Catelyn, but...  Someone really needs to give that Thoros fella a good talking to.  He's bringing the wrong people back.  I could understand Beric, since he wasn't quite "dead", but Arya saw Catelyn through Nymeria, and she was dead and in the fucking water, with her throat slit deep, for more than a day.  There is no fucking reason for her to be alive still.  Makes one wonder what the fuck is going on.  We know the old gods have power, and we know the red god, Rhllor or whatever, has some fucking power out the ass...

Are the seven just the most useless gods ever?  What the fuck have they done for anyone?

EDIT: Oh, except almost falsely judge and kill Tyrion, who has officially become the most important character in the novels.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

How is Tyrion the most important ? Also I bet the Seven will come into play soon.

@Fireball, the Kingsguard thing, I thought who could fit as a good knight, not rather what they should be.


I believe that Bran will be quite good with a sword and that he'll have Ice reforged and will sit at the throne in Winterfell as the Warden of the North.


Jon will either be at The Wall or The Wall has fallen and he'll be a lord with land, or if he is in fact Rhaegar's son he'll be at the throne... in worst case scenario I can actually see him dead T_T

I also believe that the three-eyed crow will free the wolf with wings from his shackles (ie making him "whole" working legs and all)


----------



## martryn (Nov 15, 2008)

> How is Tyrion the most important ? Also I bet the Seven will come into play soon.



He gets the most "screen time".  Most of the books feature him more prominently than any other character.  Jon and Arya both are in a distant second.  When the HBO series comes out, the actor that plays Tyrion will be pretty much the "star" of the show, though I bet they list the names alphabetically.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

Well, I suppose RR sees himself in Tyrion and gives him more screentime.


----------



## Felix (Nov 15, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Well, I suppose RR sees himself in Tyrion and gives him more screentime.



I heard him say in a speech when he came over here:

It was something like this:

"Well, Tyrion is one of my favorite characters, one of the most complex as well, but then again, I'm very close to Tyrion in personality terms, we are very similar, except that I'm fat and tall and he is short. Everything else is shared by us"


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

so George fucks whores constantly ?


----------



## Nakor (Nov 15, 2008)

martryn said:


> On the plus side I finished book 3.  On the... other side... Catelyn is still alive?  I mean, I knew you guys were talking about zombie Catelyn, but...  Someone really needs to give that Thoros fella a good talking to.  He's bringing the wrong people back.  I could understand Beric, since he wasn't quite "dead", but Arya saw Catelyn through Nymeria, and she was dead and in the fucking water, with her throat slit deep, for more than a day.  There is no fucking reason for her to be alive still.  Makes one wonder what the fuck is going on.  We know the old gods have power, and we know the red god, Rhllor or whatever, has some fucking power out the ass...
> 
> Are the seven just the most useless gods ever?  What the fuck have they done for anyone?
> 
> EDIT: Oh, except almost falsely judge and kill Tyrion, who has officially become the most important character in the novels.



the seven were probably just made up. 



Amamiya said:


> How is Tyrion the most important ? Also I bet the Seven will come into play soon.
> 
> @Fireball, the Kingsguard thing, I thought who could fit as a good knight, not rather what they should be.
> 
> ...



oh gotcha. 

ah. i always took that to mean that instead of him being able to move about onn his own, he will be able to use animals to move his mind anywhere, even where his legs can't take him.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

fireball said:


> the seven were probably just made up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In that case he wouldn't be chained to the ground as he already learned how to skinchange

Thus the chains = crippled

Wolf with wings = Bran haven't figured out what the wings mean though.


And three eyes is the sign for skinchanging, as everyone we've read about that experienced it has come across a third eye.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 15, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> In that case he wouldn't be chained to the ground as he already learned how to skinchange
> 
> Thus the chains = crippled
> 
> ...



i thought that prophecy was given before bran could skinchange of his own will?


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

Granted, however he did skinchange, and if he's just going to the land of always winter in order to learn to skinchange... that'd be kinda stupid


----------



## Nakor (Nov 15, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Granted, however he did skinchange, and if he's just going to the land of always winter in order to learn to skinchange... that'd be kinda stupid



maybe he is going there to learn how to skinchange freely and to whatever he wants to, to make it stronger.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

He pretty much can change into any medium he wants.

He fucking went into a human something it's suggested even Varamyr can't


----------



## Nakor (Nov 15, 2008)

oh yeah. i forgot about that.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

Freija is always right


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 15, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> He fucking went into a human something it's suggested even Varamyr can't


He went into a simple human, suggesting Hodor is like an animal, mentally.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

Agreed, however Hodor should be way more complex than any animal still.


----------



## martryn (Nov 15, 2008)

Loving a Feast for Crows.  Slow going, so far, though, because I spent more than an hour pouring over the charts and maps in the book, trying to get a feel for all the families and what is going on in all of them right now.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

You can't say we didn't warn you


----------



## martryn (Nov 15, 2008)

It's not a bad thing, though.  I'm liking the new characters.  That stuff with the maesters is awesome!  It's so cool to see how they go about becoming a maester.  If I were a nobly born character in Westeros, I would practice with sword and bow until the age of 14, and then go for maester training, but not ever take my vows, just so I could become well-rounded.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

I'd probably go with the sword training the rest of my life  Night's Watch or Kingsguard sounds like something for me, no brainer roles, just do what you're commanded. While I am quite smart without being smug about it, I rather prefer not thinking at all


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 15, 2008)

I'd want to be a smuggler like Davos and have my own ship. That would be awesome.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

and four fingers shorter ?


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 15, 2008)

Before he became a knight, so i would still have those fingers.


----------



## Freija (Nov 15, 2008)

And risk getting your head chopped off everyday ?


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes, thats the best part. Adventure, the possiblity of being killed everyday so you want to be a sneaky as possible.


----------



## martryn (Nov 15, 2008)

> Night's Watch or Kingsguard sounds like something for me, no brainer roles, just do what you're commanded. While I am quite smart without being smug about it, I rather prefer not thinking at all



Naw, I'd need my sex.  



> and four fingers shorter ?



Now here's a question: 
Would you, if you knew the consequences, make the same choice Davos did?  Would you have four fingers "shortened" for knighthood and land?


----------



## Nakor (Nov 15, 2008)

martryn said:


> Now here's a question:
> Would you, if you knew the consequences, make the same choice Davos did?  Would you have four fingers "shortened" for knighthood and land?



if i'd be set for life, i'd probably do it.


----------



## Freija (Nov 16, 2008)

Hey, give me lands, money, status and fame for losing 4 fingers ? Chop chop!


----------



## Felix (Nov 16, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> so George fucks whores constantly ?



I kinda thought about that as well
I sure was not the only one thinking that when he said that


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 16, 2008)

martryn said:


> It's not a bad thing, though.  I'm liking the new characters.  That stuff with the maesters is awesome!  It's so cool to see how they go about becoming a maester.  If I were a nobly born character in Westeros, I would practice with sword and bow until the age of 14, and then go for maester training, but not ever take my vows, just so I could become well-rounded.


I like it too.  Many didn't 'cause it's mostly political, Machiavellian maneuvering, instead of action-oriented.  In fact, it's similar to the first book in that regard, but with so many players gone or in other parts of the world.  You can really feel the rot in Westeros.

I think some people had an expectation for action, wars, etc.

The only thing I'd warn about it the bloody wait after you're finished with AFFC.  Well...  I didn't like the Iron Islanders parts.  But only because they're all dicks.  I'd rather have heard about their exploits from afar.  Well, all except Asha, maybe.  I loved Dorne.


----------



## Freija (Nov 16, 2008)

I loved AFFC however it took a few chapters for me to "get into it"


----------



## Nakor (Nov 16, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> Well...  I didn't like the Iron Islanders parts.  But only because they're all dicks.  I'd rather have heard about their exploits from afar.  Well, all except Asha, maybe.  I loved Dorne.



Same here. I didn't like the Iron Islanders much at all, but the dorne chapters more than made up for it. now we have to wait for the next two books to be released to read more POV from dorne


----------



## martryn (Nov 16, 2008)

> The only thing I'd warn about it the bloody wait after you're finished with AFFC. Well... I didn't like the Iron Islanders parts. But only because they're all dicks. I'd rather have heard about their exploits from afar. Well, all except Asha, maybe. I loved Dorne.



It's not too bad.  I'm really getting into the entire Drowned God thing.  It's so cool that they drown their priests and then bring them back.


----------



## Lord Yu (Nov 16, 2008)

I quite liked AFFC as well.


----------



## Freija (Nov 16, 2008)

I love Victarion.


----------



## Pan-on (Nov 17, 2008)

some news I thought you might like/hate I would make a thread about it but iv been awake for like a million hours so i thought id dump it here.


----------



## Freija (Nov 17, 2008)

Yeah, slightly late and the wrong thread for that, there's a thread in the Konoha theatre section.


----------



## Pan-on (Nov 18, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Yeah, slightly late and the wrong thread for that, there's a thread in the Konoha theatre section.



well i didn't know it was late, I just heard about it, but theres nothing wrong with posting stuff about tv shows based on literature in the literature department.


----------



## Freija (Nov 18, 2008)

I suppose  It's great news either way ^_^

I can hardly wait for it.


----------



## Pan-on (Nov 18, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> I suppose  It's great news either way ^_^
> 
> I can hardly wait for it.



It just occurred to me that your sig is probably from it, should have noticed that.


----------



## Freija (Nov 18, 2008)

Aye, it's Jon Snow and Ghost =)


----------



## martryn (Nov 18, 2008)

Being a straight man, I can say with no fear for my sexuality that Jon Snow is a sexy beast.  And Ghost is soooo cute!


----------



## Freija (Nov 18, 2008)

Ghost is awesome, silent killer type


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Nov 18, 2008)

Bah, until the series actually comes out the faces in  will always be what i imagine -they are approved by GRRM himself. Just click on the black and white pics and the full size colour versions will come up.

There is also this site which is even more comprehensive (but unfortunately it relies on imageshack).

Anyway here are a couple of my favourite pics;

For totally hetrosexual guy-love i give you  and this .

Then there is the epic


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 18, 2008)

Bahahaha!  Robb has a mullet.

Some of the portraits are good and I can see them working.  Some not to much.  I picture a chubbier (softer) Petyr Baelish, for instance.  It might be an inappropriate visualization, but I have it nonetheless.


----------



## martryn (Nov 18, 2008)

Petyr was pretty spot on.  Most of them were pretty spot on in my opinion.  A few looked radically different, but really I suppose they must.  When the HBO show premiers I'll start thinking of the characters as portrayed by the actors instead of how I think about them now.  

My favorite picture was the one of Eddard riding into the throne room with Jaime on the throne.


----------



## Freija (Nov 18, 2008)

I personally accept the Michael Kormack renditions which are approved and used in both the art book and the upcoming calendar

*Find lots of his awesome work here *


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Tywin Lannister*


*Cersei Lannister*


*Jaime Lannister*


*Tyrion Lannister*


*Jon Snow*


*Gregor Clegane*


*Eddard Stark*


*Sansa Stark*


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 18, 2008)

Cersei looks like i imagined her. Jon looks awesome.


----------



## Freija (Nov 18, 2008)

All of them looks awesome, Michael Kormack is the shit.


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 18, 2008)

He is very very talented. I wish i could do that.


----------



## Watchman (Nov 18, 2008)

I <3 Michael Kormack's art.


----------



## Freija (Nov 18, 2008)

Do like me, buy the calendar, and I have the Jaime on the Iron Throne print


----------



## Lord Yu (Nov 18, 2008)

Fuckin great stuff.


----------



## Freija (Nov 18, 2008)

Obviously, Kormack drew it.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 18, 2008)

My point was, I read the books and, from the words, draw my own mental picture.  From what is written, there can be a lot of interpretations.  I don't give a shit about what Martin approves of, accurate or not with my own images.

Those pictures are rather impressive, nonetheless.


----------



## Freija (Nov 18, 2008)

I agree, and most likely does Martin as he has never said one look is the "official" look.

I agree pretty much on everything except Cersei, Sansa and Tyrion from what I've seen of Kormack.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Nov 18, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> Bahahaha!  Robb has a mullet.
> 
> Some of the portraits are good and I can see them working.  Some not to much.  I picture a chubbier (softer) Petyr Baelish, for instance.  It might be an inappropriate visualization, but I have it nonetheless.



I thought littlefinger was perfect, he looked much smaller and diminutive then the other night. But he's got a glint in his eye. 

Holy shit - first i ever saw of Micheal Kormack, he is amazing. I certainly like his Cersei and Jaime more than Amok's. Though for all the others i think amok is king.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Nov 18, 2008)

a _song of fire and ice _rolls off the tongue much more smoothely


----------



## martryn (Nov 18, 2008)

> a song of fire and ice rolls off the tongue much more smoothely



It does, though.  I make the mistake all the time.


----------



## Dream Brother (Nov 18, 2008)

Those Kormack pics are beautiful. They generally match how I pictured the characters, too.


----------



## Lord Yu (Nov 19, 2008)

martryn said:


> It does, though.  I make the mistake all the time.



Probably because of Iceland.


----------



## Dream Brother (Nov 19, 2008)

I find myself liking this attempt at Sansa.



Less realistic than Kormack's, but somehow that seems to suit her fanciful personality. That's just my take on it, anyway.

Here's someone (bravely) attempting to depict Brienne:



(Top picture, of course.)


----------



## martryn (Nov 19, 2008)

I like those photos, brother, but I disagree with Robb's.  He totally was growing a beard.


----------



## Freija (Nov 19, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> I find myself liking this attempt at Sansa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like that Sansa too, it fits what I imagined more too


As for Robb, this is the only picture I agree with Guillemhp about, I think he pulled off Robb perfectly.


----------



## martryn (Nov 19, 2008)

> As for Robb, this is the only picture I agree with Guillemhp about, I think he pulled off Robb perfectly.



He looks like Haley Joel Osment.  I do agree, though.


----------



## Freija (Nov 19, 2008)

It was described he had more of a round look rather than the stark "hard" look, however he had grown into a fine and strong looking boy, I feel that mixes the elements really well.


----------



## Felix (Nov 20, 2008)

I totally digging Robbs hair in that picture Freija

Stop giving me ideas


----------



## Freija (Nov 20, 2008)

Not my fault I find the epicest of drawrings..


----------



## Felix (Nov 21, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Not my fault I find the epicest of drawrings..



Definetly 

Just finished rereading A Storm of Swords
Must reread A Feast for Crows
I hope that when I finish it (I'll be taking it slowly) A Dance with Dragons will be close to be released


----------



## Freija (Nov 21, 2008)

I re-read all the Jaime parts and realized... he might know a lot without knowing it himself.


----------



## Felix (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm more pumped for a Jaime set now


----------



## Freija (Nov 21, 2008)

Go for the golden knight on the iron throne


----------



## Felix (Nov 21, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Go for the golden knight on the iron throne




Yup
My favorite Art piece depicting Jaime
Pure badassery


----------



## Freija (Nov 21, 2008)

He was depicted too old there though, he was supposed to be what? 17 ? He looks like thirty.


----------



## Felix (Nov 21, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> He was depicted too old there though, he was supposed to be what? 17 ? He looks like thirty.



Done and Done
I couldn't find a higher resolution .jpeg for my avatar
I didn't want to use the same stock 

Avy looks weird
Love the signature


----------



## Freija (Nov 21, 2008)

The avy is Jaime as he is in the books now.


----------



## Felix (Nov 21, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> The avy is Jaime as he is in the books now.



He has both hands in the original picture


----------



## Freija (Nov 21, 2008)

I know, I meant as in the start of AGoT.


----------



## Felix (Nov 21, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> I know, I meant as in the start of AGoT.



DOH
I can be such an idiot sometimes


----------



## Freija (Nov 22, 2008)

I noticed.


----------



## -Maya- (Nov 22, 2008)

The Official ASoIaF thread  well i've posted this in enougth threads so i might aswell do the proper thread

Brandon Stark >>>>>>>>>> Jon Snow

Arya Stark>>>>>>>>>>>>Dany Targ


----------



## Felix (Nov 22, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> The Official ASoIaF thread  well i've posted this in enougth threads so i might aswell do the proper thread
> 
> *Brandon Stark* >>>>>>>>>> Jon Snow
> 
> Arya Stark>>>>>>>>>>>>Dany Targ



As in...
Bran? 
The guy that is carried by HODOR?

Seriously, nothing against the kid... But his chapters are my least favorite
And I take that as an offense against Jon Snow


----------



## -Maya- (Nov 22, 2008)

Felix said:


> As in...
> Bran?
> The guy that is carried by HODOR?
> 
> ...



Ofcourse their your Least Fav the goofoff doesn't give half as much care and devotion to Bran's chapters than the Other POVs i mean how many Chapter does he get in the last book like 4 and that was two books ago and DOD he is gonna have the smallest amount of Chapters again

Which is Fricking Stupid because his goal to learn magic is gonna take the longest amount of time 

But Bran has alot of potential


----------



## Felix (Nov 22, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> Ofcourse their your Least Fav the goofoff doesn't give half as much care and devotion to Bran's chapters than the Other POVs i mean how many Chapter does he get in the last book like 4 and that was two books ago and DOD he is gonna have the smallest amount of Chapters again
> 
> Which is Fricking Stupid because his goal to learn magic is gonna take the longest amount of time
> 
> But Bran has alot of potential



Bran has potential
But you are saying that Bran >>>>>>>>>>>> Jon
And that is kinda a ridiculous...

But yeah... I would like to see Bran healed and with magical knowledge, the kid has been through a lot... He needs his reward


----------



## Freija (Nov 22, 2008)

To be fair, no one in ASoIF > Jon , possibly Assassin Arya.


----------



## Dream Brother (Nov 22, 2008)

Personally, my favourite is Tyrion.


----------



## Freija (Nov 22, 2008)

I never liked Tyrion, he has far too much luck for my taste. Or well he IS one of my favourites, but I mean, just that battle he took part in pissed me off, that's really the only time GRRM actually gave someone a plot shield, which I highly despise. Tyrion fucking killed like 10 men -_-; By rights he was fighting trained knights, he should be a head shorter.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 22, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> To be fair, no one in ASoIF > Jon , possibly Assassin Arya.


Of non-POV characters, Varys, the kindly-faced man, and Assassin Arya > Jon.

I'm not sure which POV characters just yet. ?


----------



## Freija (Nov 22, 2008)

Ugh, how does Varys and a character we don't even know > Jon >_>


Vary's is like what, a weak coward who pays people to give him info.

Kindly man, talks in riddles.


----------



## naikou (Nov 22, 2008)

Most of my favorites weren't in A Feast for Crows - can't wait til Dance with Dragons gets released.

Personally:
Dany > Tyrion > Arya = Jon = Jaime > Asha = Brienne > Everyone Else


----------



## Freija (Nov 22, 2008)

Hmm, my ranking would go


Jon, Jaime, Arya > Dany, Bran > Asha, Theon, Davos > Brienne > rest (Eddard excluded, loved his PoV's)


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 22, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Vary's is like what, a weak coward who pays people to give him info.
> 
> Kindly man, talks in riddles.


Varys with his knowledge of the secret passages, his twittering birds, and his acting and disguising abilities. 

What can I say? I like the quirky characters.  Hell, if I considered the talking raven as an actual character, it would rank above or equal to Jon because of its little scenes.

I do like Jon, don't get me wrong, but he just isn't that high on the list.


----------



## Freija (Nov 22, 2008)

-_-; How would your list of PoV go then ?


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 23, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> The Official ASoIaF thread  well i've posted this in enougth threads so i might aswell do the proper thread
> 
> Brandon Stark >>>>>>>>>> Jon Snow
> 
> Arya Stark>>>>>>>>>>>>Dany Targ



What??? Bran is cool and all, yes he has potential but Jon is the best.

As for Arya/Dany I like Dany slightly more/


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

I think Dany is too stuck up really >_> She's like "Lulz, blood of the dragon, you're all below me!"


----------



## Moonshine (Nov 23, 2008)

Yeah, she is but that seems to be a common. The Lannisters are all we are lions and so much better then you all. Its annoying, but i still like her nonetheless.


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

Yeah, but they're supposed to be arrogant.


----------



## -Maya- (Nov 23, 2008)

Felix said:


> Bran has potential
> But you are saying that Bran >>>>>>>>>>>> Jon
> And that is kinda a ridiculous...
> 
> But yeah... I would like to see Bran healed and with magical knowledge, the kid has been through a lot... He needs his reward





Amamiya said:


> To be fair, no one in ASoIF > Jon , possibly Assassin Arya.





~Yoruichi~ said:


> What??? Bran is cool and all, yes he has potential but Jon is the best.
> 
> As for Arya/Dany I like Dany slightly more/



WHAT

Jon is a horrid Character no struggles everything turns out alright for him and everything gets thrown onto his Lap he is the Gary stu of the series but what pisses me off the most he always gets the most recognition he's overhyped and overated he's the sasuke of the series


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

No struggles ? What the fuck, the guy was taken for a traitor by his brothers, he had to sit on a fucking ice cold wall when his father, his brothers and his sisters died around him. Everyone pretty much hates him and disrespects him, he made tons of friends amongst the wildlings, even fell in love with one who died by one of his brothers hands, not to mention that he had to betray his friends that he made. Are we reading the same book ?

Jon's arm is damaged for life, horrendous scars going up from his hand to his elbow, almost got his eye ripped out by a hawk, was forced into an impossible situation which would have gotten him killed unless for Stannis arrival.

Jon is one of the ones that has gotten very twisted by all his struggles. Name one character that has gone through more struggles.

The only struggle Bran has is not being able to move really.


----------



## Felix (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> I never liked Tyrion, he has far too much luck for my taste. Or well he IS one of my favourites, but I mean, just that battle he took part in pissed me off, that's really the only time GRRM actually gave someone a plot shield, which I highly despise. Tyrion fucking killed like 10 men -_-; By rights he was fighting trained knights, he should be a head shorter.



He was disfigured for life
That guy is a monster forever more (He already was though)


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

... Yeah exactly. His only real shortcoming is being a dwarf.


----------



## Felix (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> ... Yeah exactly. His only real shortcoming is being a dwarf.



In a non badass axe wielding beardy way


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

.........................................I agree that Tyrion is awesome, but come on, he has plot protection.


----------



## Nakor (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> The only struggle Bran has is not being able to move really.



He's had to struggle with the crow and opening up his 3rd eye and now he is going beyond the wall, which few people dare to do, with only 3 others and none are trained soldiers. Kinda risky. The kid is 7 years old, what else do you want from him?


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

He has coldhands which in my opinion > any trained soldier.

Hey, Bran is one of my favourites, I'm not hating on him, I'm just saying he didn't really have many hard struggles.


----------



## Felix (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> No struggles ? What the fuck, the guy was taken for a traitor by his brothers, he had to sit on a fucking ice cold wall when his father, his brothers and his sisters died around him. Everyone pretty much hates him and disrespects him, he made tons of friends amongst the wildlings, even fell in love with one who died by one of his brothers hands, not to mention that he had to betray his friends that he made. Are we reading the same book ?
> 
> Jon's arm is damaged for life, horrendous scars going up from his hand to his elbow, almost got his eye ripped out by a hawk, was forced into an impossible situation which would have gotten him killed unless for Stannis arrival.
> 
> ...



Right on
Jon has been having a miserable life ever since he went to The Wall


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

It was miserable previously even, Catelyn made sure of that.


----------



## -Maya- (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> No struggles ? What the fuck, the guy was taken for a traitor by his brothers, he had to sit on a fucking ice cold wall when his father, his brothers and his sisters died around him. Everyone pretty much hates him and disrespects him, he made tons of friends amongst the wildlings, even fell in love with one who died by one of his brothers hands, not to mention that he had to betray his friends that he made. Are we reading the same book ?
> 
> Jon's arm is damaged for life, horrendous scars going up from his hand to his elbow, almost got his eye ripped out by a hawk, was forced into an impossible situation which would have gotten him killed unless for Stannis arrival.
> 
> ...



Yea But none of those struggles seemed like Struggles< he always knew what he was doing and it all came togther for hims easilly, Not for one moment during tthose struggles that you listed did i actualy get the impression that he wouldn't make it through

I guess thats more me not liking the writing more than my problems with the Character Dany is the same.

And I'm sick of watching People post about him, Like he's the most eligiable guy in the series and how he could get any girl he wanted  

I'm shallow but sue me


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

Really now ? He even thought of seriously breaking his vows until the moment with that old man south of the wall...

You have just decided you hated Jon and bypass any struggle he has and say he's got it easy.


That's like saying Daenerys had a perfectly fine raising.


----------



## Felix (Nov 23, 2008)

Yes let's see Danny:

- Her family was killed
- She had to escape has a child to a foreign country
- Was sold by her brother (who constantly tormented her) to a Horsemen tribe 
- After loving her new husband, he was killed in front of her
- Lost her child in the process. Was betrayed the person she saved
- Can never have children again
- Was abandoned by her recently acquired tribe
- People constantly want to trick her to gain her dragons
- Was betrayed by Jorah

Perfectly fine raising


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

Yes, perfect raising according to Maya


*Jon*
-Hated by his "step-mother"
-Not looked as a true member of the family by anyone except Arya
-Never knew his true mother
-Had to sit on sidesteps for everything watching his siblings with envy
-Is currently on The Wall where everyone hates and disrespects him
-Was thought a traitor by everyone and was almost hanged
-Thrown into a lose-lose situation where he would die either way
-Had his love die in his hands
-Had to betray his friends due to them being wildlings

I could rant more, but you get the gist


----------



## Felix (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Yes, perfect raising according to Maya
> 
> 
> *Jon*
> ...



Indeed
Perfectly raising
He had no problems on his whole life
He lives like a King


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

Yeah, he didn't even get sad when his father got his head chopped off, nor his sisters and brothers died. He just laughed it off and drank ale.


----------



## -Maya- (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Yes, perfect raising according to Maya
> 
> 
> *Jon*
> ...



Rob Didn't care and they where best friends, Bran liked Jon he looked up to Jon and Rob I'm not to sure about Rikon, the Only sibling that had any dark feelings for Jon was Sansa (But later we find out that was just on the surface and she did love him). He was closest with Arya But the Rest  did see him as a brother

So he had a Stepmother who hated in him that about it 

Everyone Hates him on the wall? From what i've read after having his actions explained to him he made fast friends with pretty much every new member of the watch and some older, He's the Lord commander received prefrential treatement on acoount of being Ben starks nephew 

And Really as Far as Yigirette i say the same as i would towards Dany and her baby and Husband they weren't true loves or even Good loves, Just there when they needed it


----------



## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

Well, seeing as you like Twilight I can't really take your opinion seriously, and if you honestly read the books you'd know Jon has more enemies than friends, even kings want him dead. Robb cared, aye, but not as a brother which was my point, Bran looked up to Jon, but once again, he thought Theon was a friend as well. Sansa never had any dark feelings, just like the rest of them though in a more catelyn way.


That about it? You realize how much mental pain she caused him ? Obviously you're not thinking deep. 

Everyone on The Wall hated him so much that he had to beat them into submission, hell he even threatened some of their life's.

As for being Benjens nephew, only time that ever helped him was when a random brother talked and said "he was squire to the old bear, and Benjen's nephew" 

Besides that it's been more like "Being his nephew won't help you"


Re-read the book, and then try to argue those points.

You obviously find other peoples mental anguish worse in the books as you like them, hell just the last thing Catelyn said to Jon should have been hint enough how hard he took her words and the treatment..


----------



## -Maya- (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Well, seeing as you like Twilight I can't really take your opinion seriously, and if you honestly read the books you'd know Jon has more enemies than friends, even kings want him dead. Robb cared, aye, but not as a brother which was my point, Bran looked up to Jon, but once again, he thought Theon was a friend as well. Sansa never had any dark feelings, just like the rest of them though in a more catelyn way.



Just Cause Jacob Black is sexy for a Fiticional character doesn't mean i'm a fan of twilight 

Ofcourse Rob loved Jon as a Brother one of the big theories is if he legitimized Jon in the letter there also the Memory of Mance watching Jon and Rob togther. What i mean about Sansa is that she regarded him not as a brother put only Half brother it mattered to her but latter on she just wanted to be with Jon and didn't care if people thought about him as a bastard, The only person who treated him badly during his childhood was Catelyn.



> That about it? You realize how much mental pain she caused him ? Obviously you're not thinking deep.



I love Catelyn's Character I can understand How much she hurt him but not being a Jon snow Fan i can see why she did it and why she felt it justified 



> Everyone on The Wall hated him so much that he had to beat them into submission, hell he even threatened some of their life's.



They didn't accept him at first but as soon as he showed them that he didn't think he was Better than him they accepted him and he gained friends old and young 

Really Only one person Hated Snow from the Begininng Thorne



> As for being Benjens nephew, only time that ever helped him was when a random brother talked and said "he was squire to the old bear, and Benjen's nephew"
> 
> Besides that it's been more like "Being his nephew won't help you"




They made Him squire to the Lord commander That was great for him



> You obviously find other peoples mental anguish worse in the books as you like them, hell just the last thing Catelyn said to Jon should have been hint enough how hard he took her words and the treatment..



I actually Felt bad for him then, my problem is that the majority of the painfull moments after that he brushed them off 

Like that red haired woman he claimed to luv her when she was dieing he spent like i min wiuth her while she died but then he didn't think about her or mourn her loss after, he just got right over her death that very moment


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## Freija (Nov 23, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> Just Cause Jacob Black is sexy for a Fiticional character doesn't mean i'm a fan of twilight


No but your custom title suggests it.





> Ofcourse Rob loved Jon as a Brother one of the big theories is if he legitimized Jon in the letter there also the Memory of Mance watching Jon and Rob togther.


He did love him as a half brother, which is even said by Jon previously that everyone of them only saw him as the bastard thanks to Catelyn. And if he legitimized him it was because he was the closest to a Stark he could get, you saw it, he assumed everyone was dead and that Sansa was married to a Lannister.





> What i mean about Sansa is that she regarded him not as a brother put only Half brother it mattered to her but latter on she just wanted to be with Jon and didn't care if people thought about him as a bastard, The only person who treated him badly during his childhood was Catelyn.


Ergo badly = Catelyn, Sansa

Like an outsider = Everyone except Arya. Which is why it's so exclaimed with Snow being an albino, different from the others, and the description of "They always had a deeper connection to eachother than the rest, like if they were true brothers and sister"



> I love Catelyn's Character I can understand How much she hurt him but not being a Jon snow Fan i can see why she did it and why she felt it justified


You understand how she's a jealous cunt because Jon looked more like Eddard than Robb >_>


> They didn't accept him at first but as soon as he showed them that he didn't think he was Better than him they accepted him and he gained friends old and young
> 
> Really Only one person Hated Snow from the Begininng Thorne


Re-read the chapters where they all bash on him and hate him. Only time they started liking Jon was from the moment he started learning them things.




> They made Him squire to the Lord commander That was great for him



Because he saved Mormonts life mind you. And that was Mormonts decision, and Jon didn't particularly fancy it. You really have trouble remembering how things happened. It had nothing to do with Benjen.





> I actually Felt bad for him then, my problem is that the majority of the painfull moments after that he brushed them off


He brushed them off ? He fucking cried his way out, then he hid his feelings to make Robb feel better. My god.





> Like that red haired woman he claimed to luv her when she was dieing he spent like i min wiuth her while she died but then he didn't think about her or mourn her loss after, he just got right over her death that very moment



He did, did he ? What was he supposed to do, it was war going on still, and she was a wildling, not to mention he actually gives her quite the bit of thought afterwards.


----------



## -Maya- (Nov 23, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> No but your custom title suggests it.



come on everyone  luvs a trashy romance story, i'm willing to bet even you seeing as your familiar with the series yourself




> He did love him as a half brother, which is even said by Jon previously that everyone of them only saw him as the bastard thanks to Catelyn. And if he legitimized him it was because he was the closest to a Stark he could get, you saw it, he assumed everyone was dead and that Sansa was married to a Lannister.Ergo badly = Catelyn, Sansa



So Jon snow thinks it = Automatically True? his siblings loved him he's just whinning 



> Like an outsider = Everyone except Arya. Which is why it's so exclaimed with Snow being an albino, different from the others, and the description of "They always had a deeper connection to eachother than the rest, like if they were true brothers and sister"



You're talking about Looks Because In Brans and Sansa's chapters theres nothing but love for Jon snow 




> You understand how she's a jealous cunt because Jon looked more like Eddard than Robb >_>



That had something to do with it, But it also had something to do with the fact that  In Westeros Bastards are infamous for being Untrustworthy and in some cases a threat to the safety of the legitamate Children (Dance of Dragons)

No ones saying that makes what she did to Jon okay but it can be used to see Catelyn's reasoning behind her hate 



> Re-read the chapters where they all bash on him and hate him. Only time they started liking Jon was from the moment he started learning them things.



They hated Him Because in a way he was bulling them, natural reaction really



> Because he saved Mormonts life mind you. And that was Mormonts decision, and Jon didn't particularly fancy it. You really have trouble remembering how things happened. It had nothing to do with Benjen.He brushed them off ? He fucking cried his way out, then he hid his feelings to make Robb feel better. My god.
> 
> He did, did he ? What was he supposed to do, it was war going on still, and she was a wildling, not to mention he actually gives her quite the bit of thought afterwards.



All good points But what about his recent behaviour of treating his friends who made him Lord commander like Shit ?


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 23, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> All good points But what about his recent behaviour of treating his friends who made him Lord commander like Shit ?


It's actually proper to distance yourself from the men you command.  It might look like he's treating them like shit, but it's to prevent conflicts arising in the future.  (Potentially mutinous.)  This would be something he learnt from Eddard.

There will likely be reconciliation in the future, but I have no problems saying that Lord Commander Snow is making rather prudent decisions so far.

Edit: Ah, yeah.  Also his (great-great?) uncle Aemon gave advice.


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## Freija (Nov 24, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> come on everyone  luvs a trashy romance story, i'm willing to bet even you seeing as your familiar with the series yourself


Look in the other threads what I thought about Twiligh 


> So Jon snow thinks it = Automatically True? his siblings loved him he's just whinning


Well, he if anyone would be the one to notice it.



> You're talking about Looks Because In Brans and Sansa's chapters theres nothing but love for Jon snow


Exactly, so according to you, Sansa completely loved and embraced Jon as a real brother 




> That had something to do with it, But it also had something to do with the fact that  In Westeros Bastards are infamous for being Untrustworthy and in some cases a threat to the safety of the legitamate Children (Dance of Dragons)


It was specifically mentioned in one of HER PoV's that she disliked Jon because he looked more like a Stark than the children she had born which looked more like Tully's.


> No ones saying that makes what she did to Jon okay but it can be used to see Catelyn's reasoning behind her hate


Look above, she's just a jealous bitch 



> They hated Him Because in a way he was bulling them, natural reaction really


So now we established what I said... everyone hated him, great that you conceded there, I was about to start laughing actually.





> All good points But what about his recent behaviour of treating his friends who made him Lord commander like Shit ?



Like Dionysus said below, distance yourself from the people "below" you... and as a spoiler from an ADwD summary chapter from Jon 
*Spoiler*: _A Dance with Dragon Spoiler_ 



Aemon told him to "kill the child inside" and become the lord commander.


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## -Maya- (Nov 24, 2008)

Well Bran's still better he's all vunerable and cute


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## Freija (Nov 24, 2008)

Meh, personal opinions.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

Who do you all think the final battle will come down to for being ruler? I think Dany/Stannis with Dany winning, then somehow Jon  comes into the picture with saving the north and becomes King of the North with Bran as his heir.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

I believe Dany will die leaving her army to Jon, Jon takes over Westeros from the Lannisters, or Cersei to be precise, Jaime has defected 


Bran = Warden of the North


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

You'll think she will die? Interesting...I always thought she would live, but who knows.

I forgot about the Lannisters. I think Dany will bring down the lions. Jaime doesn't seem to care much anymore. Maybe Arya will kill Cersei? That would be awesome.


----------



## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2008)

Isn't Cersei going to get executed? The crown is pretty much taken from her.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

I haven't read the fourth book yet, so i don't know. Plus, she could somehow get away even if she is to be executed, somehow.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

Cersei will either be executed or sent into exile.


hoping for the former.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

That bitch really does need to die. I can't stand her.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2008)

Cersei is one of my favorite characters. That drunken speech she gave to Sansa at the battle of the Blackwater was one of my favorite moments in the series.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

I don't remember it, remind me.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

Is it the speech from the second book when Stannis is attacking the castle and Cersei has that one guy there to kill her and Stansa just in case Stannis wins? I don't remember if thats right, i think she was drinking at the time.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

Yeah, I remember the event, but not what happened.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

She pretty much talks about whats going to happen if the castle falls, and also about Sansa bleeding and using a womans weapon of between the legs. It starts on page 845. 
Sorry, i kinda suck at summaries.


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## -Maya- (Nov 30, 2008)

~Yoruichi~ said:


> Who do you all think the final battle will come down to for being ruler? I think Dany/Stannis with Dany winning, then somehow Jon  comes into the picture with saving the north and becomes King of the North with Bran as his heir.



Despite Bran being before Jon in the Rights of succession depending where his birth was


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

As a king, Jon has the upperhand, of The North, no doubt Bran


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## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2008)

You need some Bran in your diet boy. My little brother is a Bran.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

Cripple, or just black...


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## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2008)

Crippled by religion and also black. Coincidentally, he is also my half brother.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

Well, you're no Jon Snow.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2008)

I am not indeed. I was born in wedlock. But I am still an outcast.


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## -Maya- (Nov 30, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> As a king, Jon has the upperhand, of The North, no doubt Bran



Ow Jon is a king now since when? He possibly the Heir to the Iron throne but he has very little claim to the North


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

If you followed the conversation you'd notice you rewrote exactly what I said.


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## -Maya- (Nov 30, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> If you followed the conversation you'd notice you rewrote exactly what I said.



First i don't follow convo's, second just because he's in the line of succesion doesn't mean he's a King 

Oo but ofcourse he's gonna be Dany's true luv


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

I wonder if Bran would mind just being a warden though? Think he will want Robb's title instead as King of the North?


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

Fuck no, I'm against Daeny x Jon.


Personally, I believe Jon will stay on The Wall however if he does indeed leave it for whatever reason, he'd have a much better claim than Bran to be a king, and Bran will end like Warden of the North.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

Dany/Jon is a disturbing pair, i must say so myself. Especially if they turn out to be related.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

Well, Targaryens were known to wed their sisters so why not an aunt ?


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## -Maya- (Nov 30, 2008)

~Yoruichi~ said:


> I wonder if Bran would mind just being a warden though? Think he will want Robb's title instead as King of the North?



As long as he gets a Hot Paramour don't really care what they call him poor kid deserves one Break 



> Fuck no, I'm against Daeny x Jon.
> 
> 
> Personally, I believe Jon will stay on The Wall however if he does indeed leave it for whatever reason, he'd have a much better claim than Bran to be a king, and Bran will end like Warden of the North.



Are you really a Jon snow fan?


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

I am, however as a Jon fan I can see he values his oath a lot, he even turned down being a lord of Winterfell... His dream due to the oath and love for his siblings.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Well, Targaryens were known to wed their sisters so why not an aunt ?



Because i am against i*c*st. Plus they(well at least jon i bet) wouldn't go for it.

@Maya, hmm, i see. Yes, he should get a break.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

Yes, I disapprove of that as well, but going by logic of Targaryens it's not disturbing for them, which was my point.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

I understand. I wonder though if Dany would marry him, given the chance, just as the rest of her family did? Jon  would not, but i wonder about Dany.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

If she wanted him, I doubt she would hesitate.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

True, true. I wonder if she will start to like anyone else besides  Khal in the next book.

Have you ever read any books Raymond Fiest, btw?


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

I can't say I have straight of the bat, it is quite possible though, I remember titles better than authors.


Also, she kind of craves that one guy, however she realizes he is bad for her.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

He has written a lot of books written in same world, the first books are called Magician: apprentence and master.

Is it Mormont your talking about? I remember her thinking about him sometimes. I can't remember her thinking about another guy then him.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

Nope, some Lhazareen. Can't remember his name. He was apparently a pretty looking dude.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

I can't remember him. Is he in the third book? I am rereading that so i'll come across him soon if he is.


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## Freija (Nov 30, 2008)

I think so, I believe she had like a dream about him or so, or I can be wrong and mixing it in with a memory of another book that has similar scenes.


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## Moonshine (Nov 30, 2008)

I'll let you know once i finish the book. I think your right though, i do think she dreams about a guy.


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## martryn (Nov 30, 2008)

If you're talking about Dany, she had a dream about that one mercenary captain she sorta hooks up with while she was freeing all those slaves.  He's the leader of the Storm Crows.  Daario, I think.


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## Freija (Dec 1, 2008)

YES, DAARIO, that's h is name


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## -Maya- (Dec 1, 2008)

Oww God That Guy is the greatest sleez bag in the series


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## Freija (Dec 1, 2008)

Yeah, and Daeny wanted to tap him.


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## Moonshine (Dec 1, 2008)

Okay, now i remember that guy. Dany really picks them, don't she?


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## Dionysus (Dec 1, 2008)

As to Jon staying on the Wall: he doesn't need to keep that oath if the Wall is destroyed.  So far as I can speculate.  I wouldn't rule out such a drastic turn of events.


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## Moonshine (Dec 1, 2008)

Hmm, i never really thought of that. Maybe it will get destroyed yet he will be able to save the north, and no longer have to keep the promise so he might take the throne.


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## Freija (Dec 1, 2008)

Dionysus said:


> As to Jon staying on the Wall: he doesn't need to keep that oath if the Wall is destroyed.  So far as I can speculate.  I wouldn't rule out such a drastic turn of events.



If The Wall is destroyed the Night's Watch will keep on watching until the end of days. In the oath nothing is stated of the Wall, just guarding the lands as the sword in the night.


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## Moonshine (Dec 1, 2008)

If it turns out he is a Targaryen, think he his brothers from the wall would let him leave the wall without breaking the oath just in case he had to become the King?


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## martryn (Dec 2, 2008)

> If The Wall is destroyed the Night's Watch will keep on watching until the end of days. In the oath nothing is stated of the Wall, just guarding the lands as the sword in the night.



I can't remember the wording of that completely, but if the oath is something vague, then he wouldn't be breaking it if he went about fulfilling it in a unique way, or some shit.


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## Freija (Dec 2, 2008)

Only reason I can see the Night's Watch disbanding is if there is no further threat from north of the wall.


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## Moonshine (Dec 3, 2008)

Which could happen depending on how grrm ends the book. I could see Jon/Bran defeating the threat.


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## Freija (Dec 4, 2008)

I agree, I can see that too.


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## Moonshine (Dec 4, 2008)

And once the threat has been defeated, most of the black will leave, but probably some will stay up there just to keep the peace and patrol. I really hope grrm does that.


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## Freija (Dec 4, 2008)

We'll see what happens.


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## Spidey (Dec 4, 2008)

Just wanted to say I finished the first book of this series, and was blown away. Wow it was great, and sometimes depressing as hell. I first heard about the series here, and it's really opened me up to fantasy novels. I'll be reading a clash of kings as soon as I can.


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## Freija (Dec 4, 2008)

You won't ever be able to read another fantasy novel because they're shit compared to ASoIF


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## Watchman (Dec 4, 2008)

I know. 

They ruined the fantasy genre for me.


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## jkingler (Dec 4, 2008)

> We'll see what happens.


At this rate, maybe not.


> You won't ever be able to read another fantasy novel because they're shit compared to ASoIaF


There are some that stand up. Just not many.


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## Spidey (Dec 4, 2008)

I hear good things about the farseer trilogy as well as the wheel of time, which I'll probably take a look at when I'm caught up with ASoIaF. I really hope that hbo series takes flight.


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## Moonshine (Dec 4, 2008)

The wheel of time is a long long series. Its good in the beginning, but kinda gets annoying halfway through the series. 
AsoFaI is an awesome series, and it does make many other fantasy books look like shit compared to it, however i still enjoy Ramond E Fiest and also the Otherland series- which is kind of a mixture between Sci and Fantasy


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## martryn (Dec 4, 2008)

Wheel of Time is hit or miss.  Even in the annoying books there are some awesome things that happen.  What makes it so annoying are the female characters.  They're all fucking bitches, minus maybe two of them.  Maybe.  But the series has got some pretty kick ass shit too.  

I'd recommend looking into Stephen R. Donaldson.  Just about anything he writes is great.  No one seems to like him on the forums, though.


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## Moonshine (Dec 4, 2008)

Which two women? It does have some good parts in the books that i don't like. I don't like Perren(with thats his name) any more. He kinda got annoying for me.

I always wanted to read Donaldson books, can't remember what series, but when i went to the bookstore they didn't have the one i was looking for and i didn't bother to get them online.


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## martryn (Dec 4, 2008)

> Which two women?



Min seems ok, and I'm a fan of Aviendha, because I can justify why she acts the way she does.  



> I always wanted to read Donaldson books, can't remember what series, but when i went to the bookstore they didn't have the one i was looking for and i didn't bother to get them online.



The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, I swear, is fucking great fantasy.


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## Moonshine (Dec 4, 2008)

Oh yeah, those to are certainly the best.

Thats the one i wanted to read! I must remember to get it and read it after i finish rereading the third book and reading the fourth book of this series.


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## Dionysus (Dec 5, 2008)

If this thread is becoming a recommendation fest, please help me a bit.  I'm looking for standalone books in the fantasy or sci-fi area.  Nothing that stands alone but has sequels that you might be interested in, etc.  Just one well-written novel with a self-contained story.

I have one for the people here: "The War of the Flowers" by Tab Williams.  I picked it up in an airport, lest I kill my self on a long stopover.  I'm glad I did.  It's a charming take on fairies and goblins and such.  Fairyland if it grows up twisted through the lens of Dickensian London.  I've never read any other thing of Tad Williams, but this one book is rather solid.  It's nothing complex, though he does tie in themes like social justice and oppression, economic exploitation.

Now...  recommend me some standalones, if you would.


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## jkingler (Dec 5, 2008)

Standalone...Fantasy?...

Liek, do they exist? 

OK. So I have a bunch for you. Off the top...

King - The Eyes of the Dragon; The Stand
Kay - Tigana; The Lions of Al-Rassan
Tolkien - The Hobbit; The Silmarillion; Smith of Wootton Major & Farmer Giles of Ham ()
Bradley - The Mists of Avalon
Martin - Fevre Dream
Zelazny - Lord of Light; The Great Book of Amber ()
Mieville - Perdido Street Station
Gaiman - American Gods; Neverwhere; Stardust
Gaiman-Pratchett - Good Omens
Pratchett - Everything in Discworld is a standalone, really. 
Card - Hart's Hope
etc.

Should be a good start for you.  I'd rec less, if I knew what, in particular, you were in the mood for. Let me know and I'll sift.


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## Freija (Dec 5, 2008)

jkingler said:


> Standalone...Fantasy?...
> 
> Liek, do they exist?
> 
> ...



The bolded ones are actually prequels and sequels to LotR


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## jkingler (Dec 5, 2008)

Nice find.


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## Freija (Dec 5, 2008)

I'm Freija, I find everything


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## Moonshine (Dec 5, 2008)

jkingler said:


> Gaiman-Pratchett - Good Omens


Is that considered a fantasy? I just considered it more of a fiction novel. It is certainly a good book though


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## Freija (Dec 5, 2008)

I think it's considered fantasy at least


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## Moonshine (Dec 5, 2008)

What elements do you think make it a fantasy? Just curious to know.


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## jkingler (Dec 5, 2008)

Armageddon and the Antichrist? Angels and demons? Witches and prophecies? That's Fantasy. Capital F.

And yes, all those things are en la Biblia.


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## Moonshine (Dec 5, 2008)

I guess so. I figured most people would consider it a fiction novel just because it had those elements in it. truth be told i never gave it much thought.


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## jkingler (Dec 5, 2008)

Fiction = anything that deviates from reality, however slightly.

Fantasy = myth, legend, supernatural, etc.

So it's both. Fiction is the category. Fantasy is the genre.


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## Moonshine (Dec 5, 2008)

hmm. Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying(sp?) that up for me


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## Freija (Dec 5, 2008)

jkingler said:


> Fiction = anything that deviates from reality, however slightly.
> 
> Fantasy = myth, legend, supernatural, etc.
> 
> So it's both. Fiction is the category. Fantasy is the genre.



Even I didn't think of it in that way


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## jkingler (Dec 5, 2008)

Have you been confusing High/Epic Fantasy (the sub-genre, with elves and orcs and magic rings and evil kings and intricate world-building...) and Fantasy (the broader genre)? 

If so, glad to clear that up for you.


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## Moonshine (Dec 5, 2008)

I know what high fantasy would be considered. And just fantasy to a point, but the basis of Good Omens is what made me confused why people where calling it a fantasy, but you did clear it up for me


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## Freija (Dec 5, 2008)

jkingler said:


> Have you been confusing High/Epic Fantasy (the sub-genre, with elves and orcs and magic rings and evil kings and intricate world-building...) and Fantasy (the broader genre)?
> 
> If so, glad to clear that up for you.



Nah, I know high fantasy and such, just never struck me that fiction was only a category


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## Dionysus (Dec 5, 2008)

So far only Kingler delivers.  He's a stand up guy.

I like the term speculative fiction as well.  It's nice and technical, and allows for snobby literature experts to keep their pride and acknowledge the merits of fantasy at the same time.  Though, whatever floats your boat.

I've read half of that list you posted, Joe.  (I preferred the Scar to Perdido St. Station. Mieville's short story collection, Looking For Jake, is fucking awesome and I highly recommend that.)  Thanks for the considerate consideration in notarising a book list.

All those Gaiman choices were excellent too.  I might see if he has another book out.  He's pretty consistent.

I'm boycotting Martin for the time being.  He doesn't need anyone funding any more sojourns to Europe or other places.

There is nothing, so far as I'm aware, that I'm in the mood for.  Just...  well-written.  And I have too many series on the go, thus I just want standalone books.  There are differences in how they are written, and it's a refreshing change to series.  The constrained nature yields different kinds of storytelling, and affords for more experimentation.  If my experience is any judge.  Though, I don't know if I want to call House of Leaves a fantasy.


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## jkingler (Dec 5, 2008)

> I like the term speculative fiction as well. It's nice and technical, and allows for snobby literature experts to keep their pride and acknowledge the merits of fantasy at the same time. Though, whatever floats your boat.


Speculative fiction works. It's a MUCH larger genre than Fantasy, though (obviously, since Fantasy falls under the umbrella of Spec Fic).


> I've read half of that list you posted, Joe.


Which half have you read? And which were your faves? From there, I can extrapolate what you most need to read from the other half (which, for my laziness' sake, you may also want to note for me XD).


> Thanks for the considerate consideration in notarising a book list.


Least I can do. Recs shouldn't be a one-way street, nor have they been where you and I are concerned. 


> All those Gaiman choices were excellent too. I might see if he has another book out. He's pretty consistent.


You should check out Anansi Boys. Haven't read it yet, but it follows up on some of the gods from AG. I hear it's as good as AG, if not better, even.

Also, The Sandman: The Dream Hunters just came out. Haven't read that either, though.


> I'm boycotting Martin for the time being. He doesn't need anyone funding any more sojourns to Europe or other places.


Fair enough. But if you DO buy more Martin, Fevre Dream is where it's at. Just say no to Wild Cards, AT LEAST until ASoIaF is done. 


> There is nothing, so far as I'm aware, that I'm in the mood for. Just... well-written. And I have too many series on the go, thus I just want standalone books.


/reminds you about the instructions above, where more specific recs are concerned


> There are differences in how they are written, and it's a refreshing change to series. The constrained nature yields different kinds of storytelling, and affords for more experimentation. If my experience is any judge. Though, I don't know if I want to call House of Leaves a fantasy.


I know what you mean. And if you are open to recs from all of Spec Fic ()...well, I'll be geometrically increasing my recs, is all.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 5, 2008)

Ah fucking back button on my mouse.  I'm now posting my displeasure and retyping what I had.

I consider even little departures from reality as fantasy.  I don't subscribe to the notion that dragons, magic, etc. are required.  I consider, for instance, the Picture of Dorian Gray as fantasy.  And Star Wars and Star Trek.  So, fantasy and speculative are practically synonyms.

I like grand unifying theories.

I remember reading It, by King (and why they didn't put in the adolescent gangbang into the TV adaptation, I'll never know)
Tolkien - The Hobbit; The Silmarillion
Mieville - Perdido Street Station, and his other Bas-Lag books (which I think The Scar is the best), and his amazing short stories.
Gaiman - American Gods; Neverwhere; Stardust
Pratchett - Discworld <-- not all, but I'm not up to reading more now.

I recommend Spin by Robert Charles Wilson.  If anyone's interested.

See what Martin has done to us?  Eventually we'll move on.  You've been warned, Georgie.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

George has... well screwed up my life  Each day I have to look at his blog in the great off-chance that he might have updated it writing "It's DONE!"

But all I see is updates on fucking football.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

He needs to stop watching football and get a move on finishing that book or else


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

What can we do


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Go to his house and force him to finish the book


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

Yeah, you do that and I'll watch the cops carrying you out of the house.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Okay, I'll make sure and wave.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

Seriously though, I can't believe that he does this to his fans.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

I know, we spend our money and time reading his books, and recommending them to others, not to metion other things, yet he hasn't finished a book in three years? Especially when it was practically done when the last book came out? One-two years I understand, but three? come on


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

ehrmm, in a month it's more or less 4 years


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Four years soon? Damn really Martin


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

Yeah, lazy cunt he is.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Very lazy. This old news I bet but I also read that if he dies he doesn't want the books finished. Can't he at least tell someone how he planned on ending the books so we know? I don't mind not reading the last of of the books, I just want to know how it ends.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

That's fucking weak and mean to the fans.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Certainly is. If he dies, we will never know who is going to rule. Though looking it, he probably will die before the series finishes. Taking him forever to write the book


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

He's a bastard.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

i'd boycott his books, but i like them too much to do so!


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

Yeah, I would however love to get a boycott going for his other books.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Yeah, lets only read SoFaI and boycott anyother of his books.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

It's actually Ice and Fire, not Fire and Ice as your shortening of it suggested ^^


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Oh, sorry . I always think fire is first for some reason.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

Why ?


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

I don't know. Probably before i read this series i always thought "fire and ice" in that order. So i got it stuck in my head that its fire and ice, not the other way around.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 6, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Why ?


Slight OCD? 


'F' before 'I' except after 'S'.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 6, 2008)

I've posted it before, and I'll post it again: 

They update regularly.  Be sure to pick up your copy of the Mystic Spiral Trader’s Holiday Gift Guide!  Christmas made easy!


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

hahahaha, awesome Dionysus.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

I must bookmark that page! lol at Cersei's and Cat's.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

I hate Martin, and if the book is not done by February, I'll stop reading.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

I wish i could do that, but i hate not finishing series. I always want to know how it ends.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

Same here, but the chance is big that he'll be dead before the last book is finished, he's over 60 and weighs like 400 pounds.


----------



## martryn (Dec 6, 2008)

All I can say is that with as long as it is taking, this book better blow me the fuck away.  It better be the Bible of the new millennium, spawning world religions and shit.  

...course, I've stalled reading A Feast for Crows.  I can't get into the Iron Islands shit, or any chapter revolving around Cersei.  She's worse than Cat.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Same here, but the chance is big that he'll be dead before the last book is finished, he's over 60 and weighs like 400 pounds.


Yeah, being that much over weight at that age he will probably die soon. If that happens maybe i'll make up my own ending.


martryn said:


> All I can say is that with as long as it is taking, this book better blow me the fuck away.  It better be the Bible of the new millennium, spawning world religions and shit.
> 
> ...course, I've stalled reading A Feast for Crows.  I can't get into the Iron Islands shit, or any chapter revolving around Cersei.  She's worse than Cat.



Damn straight it better be. 

Cersei certainly sucks. I don't care about her pov either.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

At first I found Cersei hilarious, but overtime it got boring.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

She is too full of herself. Die soon, bitch.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

> Today, GRRM is encouraging all of us to get out and vote.  Apparently, Captain Meatball is worried about long lines at the voting booth, and he wanted to let us all know -- without a hint of self-righteousness, of course -- that he and Parris are good, dedicated constituents who have participated in the electoral process.  Also, he wants us to know that there was a good turnout in Santa Fe for early voting.  Thank fucking god.  What would we do without the jalapeno vote?
> 
> *Anyways, since we all know GRRM can't write unless he is in his special place with his special writing booties on and the temperature at exactly 69 degrees and the sun aligned with Aquarius,* I take this as another sign that the big guy hasn't typed a word of ADWD today.  I'm sure all the election hubbub has just worked him into a political frenzy.  Heck, he and Parris are probably kicking back in their papasan chairs, clinking together milkshakes and celebrating what good Americans they are, and by gum, how damned fine it feels to be a part of something.


Bolded part has me laughing uncontrollably for some reason.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

that part is really funny indeed


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

Not to mention the nicknames they have for GRRM, like Pizza the Hut.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Pizza the hut?  that reminds me of spaceballs


----------



## jkingler (Dec 6, 2008)

> Catelyn Tully: A Retrospective – Cat explores her inner self, her wants, her worries, as she takes us on a mother’s journey from her own childhood to the woman she is today (living dead).  From Riverrun to Winterfell, Cat brings it all together is this exciting new tome.


/       suicide


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

/ditto


also




> There sure is!  It's the perfect accessory to practice your sword-fighting techniques with.  You know, while you aren't reading Dance with Dragons.  But at least you can get a good workout and lose some weight!  (You know, if you've been sitting around doing nothing for a few years...)
> 
> By the way, what's the risk of heart disease running for men over 60 these days?


 This entire post is hilarious


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Lol that is a good one.


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

They're talking about the Longclaw replica btw


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Okay. Did the make more replicas or just that one? I don't recall...


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 6, 2008)

Fuck you George RR Martin. I'll write my own fantasy series. With blackjack! And hookers! 

OK maybe not blackjack...


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

lol blackjack. Just write it with hookers, it will be a winner


----------



## Freija (Dec 6, 2008)

Reading that blog, it makes me hate Martin even more.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

Martin give us the damn book!


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 6, 2008)

Martin already has a fantasy series about blackjack.  Also, broken toilets, from the sounds of things.


----------



## Felix (Dec 6, 2008)

That Liveblog is awesome


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 6, 2008)

at that last link.


----------



## martryn (Dec 7, 2008)

...I got a neg rep for my last post in this thread...

I wish I was clever enough to have a blog about something awesome, like hating writers and stuff.  Maybe a blog about... Winnie the Pooh.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 7, 2008)

martryn said:


> I wish I was clever enough to have a blog about something awesome, like hating writers and stuff.  Maybe a blog about... Winnie the Pooh.


You better not be shittin' me about the Pooh.  Nothing can beat the Winnie.


----------



## martryn (Dec 7, 2008)

I love Winnie the Pooh.  I'm writing a Winnie the Pooh inspired script.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 7, 2008)




----------



## Freija (Dec 7, 2008)

martryn said:


> ...I got a neg rep for my last post in this thread...
> 
> I wish I was clever enough to have a blog about something awesome, like hating writers and stuff.  Maybe a blog about... Winnie the Pooh.



I'd mend that wound, but I have to spread.


----------



## Felix (Dec 7, 2008)

I've read that Jon chapter

YOU KNOW NOTHING 
I wonder if that implies way more than I think at first...


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 7, 2008)

Good chapter, hadn't read that before.

Oh yeah, it certainly implies a lot. I don't really care for that woman either.


----------



## Freija (Dec 7, 2008)

Felix said:


> I've read that Jon chapter
> 
> YOU KNOW NOTHING
> I wonder if that implies way more than I think at first...



I've read it like 20 times


----------



## martryn (Dec 7, 2008)

> I'd mend that wound, but I have to spread.



Wound?  Hah!  More like a fly landed on my arm and I had to swat it, just that I did the swatting first and that's why he landed. 

I've not read the chapter, honestly, and I'm not going to.  Just like I don't read the previews for the next book at the end of the current ones.


----------



## Freija (Dec 7, 2008)

Well, I've read all the previews... and summaries for those that he read to others on conventions, Jon Snow 3 is fucking awesome, everyone will shit bricks there.


----------



## martryn (Dec 7, 2008)

My thing is that I don't want to have to reread things, and I want to read the book from cover to cover.  I guess if I read the preview here I wouldn't mind rereading it because it'll be months between reading it and reading that part in the actual book.


----------



## Freija (Dec 7, 2008)

Well, if the book isn't done by February, I'm giving up on this series.


----------



## Felix (Dec 7, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Well, if the book isn't done by February, I'm giving up on this series.



I suspect you won't
You love this series too much


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 7, 2008)

That website does have some funny comics


----------



## Felix (Dec 7, 2008)

Just seen all those pictures
They were all great

Even Sandor Clegane was cool


----------



## Freija (Dec 7, 2008)

Felix said:


> I suspect you won't
> You love this series too much



Don't ruin this moment and let me believe I will.


I have to say I'm amazed by that art though.


----------



## Felix (Dec 7, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> *Don't ruin this moment and let me believe I will.*
> 
> 
> I have to say I'm amazed by that art though.



Oh but you won't
You know it
You don't believe it as well


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 7, 2008)

I gave up on, for instance, WoT.  When I was younger, I loved the series.  I couldn't wait to get the next one.  That changed, and I couldn't even finished the book after Winter's Heart.  I can't remember the name.

Same could happen with ASOIAF, but for slightly different reasons.  There's no set deadline; I just move on.  I will bet there is a large number of people doing just that.

I wonder how many people are still reading Berserk who started when it was originally released.  Bahaha.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 7, 2008)

Berserk has had like 3 releases this month.


----------



## martryn (Dec 8, 2008)

> I gave up on, for instance, WoT. When I was younger, I loved the series. I couldn't wait to get the next one. That changed, and I couldn't even finished the book after Winter's Heart. I can't remember the name.



Was that Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams?  Hmmm....

I was that way my first time through.  I couldn't get through Winter's Heart, actually.  I think I ate them up in fall of 2001, which was when I first discovered it.  Then the magic of the series disappeared.  I put it down and picked it back up a second time, rereading them all to about the sixth book, in the fall of 2003.  Then I floundered again, and couldn't make it through them.  I think I finally finished the last book out in the summer of 2007.  It's a good series, but it's hard to power through it.  Seriously needs a trim. 



> Same could happen with ASOIAF, but for slightly different reasons. There's no set deadline; I just move on. I will bet there is a large number of people doing just that.



I, personally, don't think I'll have a problem finishing a Song of Ice and Fire if there are books to finish.  First, I'm gonna be able to read other things before the next book is released, so I'll get a break between books.  

Second, the series is more engaging in later books.  Even with Martin's large cast, I'm not having that much trouble remembering who is who.  The minor characters usually aren't that mobile, and it's easy to remember who someone is when you can associate them with other characters or a place.  Jordan didn't do us favors there.  

And, finally, it's not going to be as long.  

Not to mention that if they ever get this series underway it's just more encouragement to finish the books. 



> I wonder how many people are still reading Berserk who started when it was originally released. Bahaha.



I am!  Slowly...  Rereading it right now, actually.  From where they picked up that witch girl...  For some reason everytime I try to come up with a name for her I get Cersei.  Guess it's like Schrieke or something like that, right?


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 8, 2008)

Close, Schierke.


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

I've read Berserk for 5 years, though that is not close to the 19 years it's been in production.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 8, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Berserk has had like 3 releases this month.


Yeah, I noticed.  He seems to do this for a while, then leave for six or more months.  Seriously, it's been two bloody decades since it started and he only just reached the 400th chapter.

I seriously doubt anyone here started right at the beginning.  It's natural to just lose interest over time.  The original readers are going through mid-life crises, the breakup of marriages, kids annoying them, the rat race of life.

That's my point.  I don't want to lose interest, I think ASOIAF is an excellent story.  But, in the future, that doesn't mean I won't give a shit if he takes years to get things out and I can find other things to entertain myself with (easily accomplished).


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

He will probably do a Hitchhikers and die before the book is finished.


----------



## jkingler (Dec 8, 2008)

Of amyloidosis, or lupus, or some other House diagnosis, no doubt.


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

I suggest heart failure due to fat.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 8, 2008)

It's never Lupus.


----------



## martryn (Dec 8, 2008)

> I've read Berserk for 5 years, though that is not close to the 19 years it's been in production.



Fuck, I hadn't realized it was that long!  Guess that makes sense, though.  Berserk has always been there, I've just never thought about it.


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't blame you, I didn't realize it'd been that long until someone mentioned it recently.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 8, 2008)

And it doesn't look to be anywhere near finished!


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

Just like ASoIaF


----------



## jkingler (Dec 8, 2008)

Aaaaand we've come full circle.


----------



## Felix (Dec 8, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> Just like ASoIaF



After ADAW

Only 2 books left


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

That probably never will be done.


----------



## Watchman (Dec 8, 2008)

Felix said:


> After ADAW
> 
> Only 2 books left



Ignoring that Storm of Swords was supposed to be one book, as was Feast of Crows + Dance of Dragons.

Looks like we're in for this wait x at least 4.


----------



## Felix (Dec 8, 2008)

Watchman said:


> Ignoring that Storm of Swords was supposed to be one book, as was Feast of Crows + Dance of Dragons.
> 
> Looks like we're in for this wait x at least 4.



But Storm of Swords was only one book


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

Watchman said:


> Ignoring that Storm of Swords was supposed to be one book, as was Feast of Crows + Dance of Dragons.
> 
> Looks like we're in for this wait x at least 4.



Storm of Swords was one book


----------



## Watchman (Dec 8, 2008)

*sigh* technically, yes, but I count one book published in two volumes as two books. Ignore that, then - I'd thought more people than just me thought that way.


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

It's not two volumes >_> ASoS was published as one volume.


----------



## Watchman (Dec 8, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> It's not two volumes >_> ASoS was published as one volume.



Really? I bought in two instalments: Steel and Snow and Blood and Gold. 

So maybe that's where the confusion comes from.


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

:S, you must read the pocket or something.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Dec 8, 2008)

ASoS has always been two volumes in the UK.

At least in paperback anyway


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

Really ? >_> In hard cover it's one volume.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 8, 2008)

Who gives a shit about the UK?  It's one book as a MMPB in North America.  Fuck yeah.


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

One book in Sweden too.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 8, 2008)

I hate it when they split books up into two books. Its so much nicer as one book, unless its like 1800 pages or something.


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

And you have to wait 4 years for the second half.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 8, 2008)

Yeah, when it was practically done in the first place.


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

Exactly... well if you're fat and barely can lift your fingers...


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 8, 2008)

lol yeah...he probably can't write or type with fat fingers


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

He hits two keys at once


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 8, 2008)

lol and the only key that he can hit properly is the space key...and that doesn't help correct his mistakes. 
Maybe he has to tell people what to type for him but they can't understand him over the food in his mouth and the football on...


----------



## Freija (Dec 8, 2008)

"wjdsakdsajdasijdoida"


"Sir, please the the pie out of your mouth"


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 8, 2008)

and also: "I asked for the news, not the weather" as bones from chicken and spit comes flying out of his mouth


----------



## Felix (Dec 8, 2008)

In Portugal the books are seperated in two


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 8, 2008)

In Soviet Russia, book splits you.


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

> Now all I need to do is wrap up WARRIORS and SUICIDE KINGS and... yes... A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, *and maybe I'll be able to take a week off.* (The reason they call them deadlines is because they're like to kill you).



What I said earlier about him being close to finishing the book and waiting for christmas/newyears to tell us is looking more and more like teh truth 

He can't have much left if he himself says all he needs to do is wrap it up... and the best thing... He'll keep us fucking posted!


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2008)

I'll shit my intestines.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 9, 2008)

All I have to do is wrap up that whole getting married, having a career thing.  Then I'll be good.

See?  It can be hopeful, or it can be used as a cover.

"You got my money?  You have so many pretty things here.  I wouldn't want them to be damaged should I stumble in shock at your bad news."

"All I have to do is wrap up a few things!  I swear!  I'm this close to fifty big ones!"


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

Dammit Dionysus, I'm trying to stay positive.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 9, 2008)

I don't believe him


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

Me neither, but I'm trying to stay positive.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 9, 2008)

I am too negative to be positive.

They really should give him a hard deadline and fine him if he doesn't finish the book by it


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

I agree.....


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2008)

We should fine him his beard.


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

Every straw longer than 5 cm


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 9, 2008)

or maybe some pounds...he must lose a pound each day its late


----------



## martryn (Dec 9, 2008)

His publishers should be making an effort to keep him healthy.  He should have trainers and stuff.


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

that fatso.

I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.
Douglas Adams


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 9, 2008)

They should get him trainers...

Maybe instead of watching football/sports all day he should be playing it


----------



## martryn (Dec 9, 2008)

> Maybe instead of watching football/sports all day he should be playing it



Maybe he could be hitting the treadmill while he watched or some shit.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 9, 2008)

That too

maybe they should run around with a burger and make him chase them


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

martryn said:


> Maybe he could be hitting the treadmill while he watched or some shit.



He'd get a heartattack from overworking himself... walking 2 km/h is hard you know.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2008)

Please, I walked 7 miles during an asthma attack with flat feet.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 9, 2008)

Yeah, but for him i bet going for 10 ft he probably needs to stop and a take a breather


----------



## Grrblt (Dec 9, 2008)

holy shit Robb just died


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Dec 9, 2008)

Grrblt said:


> holy shit Robb just died



HAHAHAHA. Hits you in the gut huh ? Don't worry though - there is more!

Oh  and Mister Mod please spoiler tag that shit.


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Please, I walked 7 miles during an asthma attack with flat feet.


Nice... try to make George do the same thing.



Grrblt said:


> holy shit Robb just died



T___________T ROBB!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And that's no spoiler, that was a spoiler like 7 years ago.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Dec 9, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> And that's no spoiler, that was a spoiler like 7 years ago.



So what happens to the newbs we have have been mercilessly pimping ASoIaF to that want to post about how awesome AGoT was ?


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

They'll have to take it like it is...


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Dec 9, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> They'll have to take it like it is...



Up the ass it is then.


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

yes          .


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 9, 2008)

Who's ass?              .


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

The noobs.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 9, 2008)

Bahahahah.



> I am crushed like a Targaryen baby.


----------



## Felix (Dec 9, 2008)

WHAT
ROBB DIED?
OMG MAN
WHAT THE FUCK


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

Yes, Felix, it was a surprise to all of us.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2008)

I always expected him too. I was just surprised how it happened.


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

I never wanted Robb to die


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 9, 2008)

Robb was awesame Now theres a  person who deserved a POV


----------



## Felix (Dec 9, 2008)

I knew something was wrong when Martin was refusing to giving us a Robb POV
There was something fishy about it...


----------



## Freija (Dec 9, 2008)

I know what you mean


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 9, 2008)

Dany is the only ruler that has a pov, doesn't she? Robb, Joffery, Robert, Stannis, and Renly never had one? 
 I am not including Theon who styled himself a king because he had few followers.


----------



## jkingler (Dec 9, 2008)

Ned/Eddard also had POV chapters.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 9, 2008)

I didn't include him either because I am talking about people who are or named themselves kings/queens. Ed never considered himself such.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 10, 2008)

~Yoruichi~ said:


> Dany is the only ruler that has a pov, doesn't she? Robb, Joffery, Robert, Stannis, and Renly never had one?


 Cersei? She was Queen and is now Queen-Regent.

Littlefinger is Lord-Regent of the Vale. Does that count?

Wasn't there also a POV with the ruler of Dorne?


----------



## Freija (Dec 10, 2008)

Nope, it was from his daughters perspective.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 10, 2008)

I am considering more of the direct rulers, not their parents. I know Cersei was Queen and is now Queen  Regent, but her son is the King. Little-Finger is Lord regent too, so same goes with him.

I am rying to tie it in with how Robb never got a POV.


----------



## Freija (Dec 10, 2008)

Robb never got a POV because he was doomed from chapter 1.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 10, 2008)

Yeah he certainly was.

The connection i am trying to make-and will probably fail at-is how no queen/king-current ones-have a pov besides Dany. So maybe it means she is fated to rule?


----------



## jkingler (Dec 10, 2008)

Or fated to die. Hopefully not, from my POV, but I'm sure GRRM could make it work either way.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 10, 2008)

You don't like Dany?


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 10, 2008)

I Fanatically support Dany dieing


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 10, 2008)

I rather like her. She is stuck up a bit, but still...

To each their own


----------



## Freija (Dec 10, 2008)

I like Dany, she has her downsides like thinking the world show bow to her because she's a Targaryen, however... I do believe she'll die in The Winds of Winter.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 10, 2008)

That is only part i dislike about her.

The winter will freeze the dragon's flames?I know that was a lame line


----------



## Freija (Dec 10, 2008)

I have quite a lot of small hates for her.

Excluding "I'm a Targaryen bow down world" I hate the fact that she thinks she's so 100% honest all the time, she keeps her secrets, tells half truths and shit, and then she calls Barristan false...

She has a bit of Targaryen madness, she fucking went into a fire to burn herself and shit.

She has such a big right to be the ruler of Westeros... a country she hasn't even seen 

She is so up in her own ass she believes that she can beat everyone. She makes an enemy of everyone who tends to disagree with her.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 10, 2008)

lol yeah i know. But i still like her, can't help it.

I just read that live journal where they make fun of grrm. It was pretty funny entry.


----------



## Freija (Dec 11, 2008)

It's awesome, I laugh my ass off everytime.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 11, 2008)

lol inbreeding.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 11, 2008)

> A week off?  Are you fucking kidding?
> 
> Go die.
> Go die.
> ...



lol my favorite part of the blog


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 11, 2008)

Amamiya said:


> I have quite a lot of small hates for her.
> 
> Excluding "I'm a Targaryen bow down world" I hate the fact that she thinks she's so 100% honest all the time, she keeps her secrets, tells half truths and shit, and then she calls Barristan false...
> 
> ...


To be honest, I saw all that stuff more as being insecure rather than actually stuck up. You have to remember she's still a young girl in a very big position. She has to convince herself that she's big and bad. She has to convince herself that what she is doing is right.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 11, 2008)

And she is letting anyone push her around considering her age. Which shows she is strong.


----------



## Freija (Dec 12, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> To be honest, I saw all that stuff more as being insecure rather than actually stuck up. You have to remember she's still a young girl in a very big position. She has to convince herself that she's big and bad. She has to convince herself that what she is doing is right.



There's a limit to that, when she actually goes like "I'm Targaryen, bow down bitches" I actually wish a sell sword kills her on the spot.

And when she accuses Barristan to be false... fuck her, she is much falser!


I accept the fact that she's 15 and put in a position of rule there are bound to be like some thoughts like she is higher than everyone else... but come on she can't expect that everyone cares.

She detests Viserys so much, yet she uses his words, believes all his stories... she even uses the exact same words to describe Ned and Jon Arryn with "The Usurpers dog's" I mean come on, she's a step away from the Targaryen highhorseness which is only a step away from Targaryen madness.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2008)

She believes it because it's all she's ever known. Viserys may have been a massive douche but he was still her older brother and a big influence on her. Whether you hate someone or not they can still be a big influence. Humans are irrational like that. Also she's hardly as mad as her father. Wait till she bakes an innocent man alive for that.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Dec 17, 2008)

From a very well respected and trusted source. Read here.

Also its probably best to reply in that thread - that way we can drum up some real interest in ASoIaF


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

I have to change pants, I just came.


----------



## martryn (Dec 17, 2008)

Damn, that looks fucking badass!


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

It does indeed


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 17, 2008)

Sounds about what I expect.  Except for the ages of the kids.

Dany being two years younger than Robb and Jon really changes the plot surrounding Robert's Rebellion.  Regardless of Jon being Rhaegar's son, Ned is still likely to come home with Jon after the war (being born during it, like Robb).  So, Dany is likely born sometime after the war.  I suppose they could have Dany being born in exile.  Holding Dragonwhatever for that long is iffy, so if they go this route, her escape from the island had best make sense.  I can't see them changing the significance of each birth in terms of the main plot; I just hope it makes sense.


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Well, if George hasn't found any problem with it I doubt we will.


----------



## jkingler (Dec 17, 2008)

Meeting Tyrion in a brothel = win. So long as it isn't the beginning of his Gimlification.


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Gimlification ?


----------



## jkingler (Dec 17, 2008)

Gimli went from awesome in the LOTR books to comic relief in the LOTR movies. 

If they do that to Tyrion...


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Gimli was always comic relief, but I get your point


----------



## jkingler (Dec 17, 2008)

Download

Do a ctrl+f for Gimli. The changes, when significant, always serve to diminish our most esteemed dwarf in the most ignoble ways.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 17, 2008)

Aren't dwarves in most movies comic relief? It sucks when they change them from the book into the movie and just make them comic relief instead of warriors they are.


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Meh, I always found him hilarious either way. And Tyrion is the comic relief, just not in the sense you're thinking.


----------



## jkingler (Dec 17, 2008)

> Aren't dwarves in most movies comic relief?


I expected better from PJ. 

Between that and stealing Gandalf's shine/giving Bewb Tyler spells, extra story-relevance and screentime...


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 17, 2008)

I hear you there...i can't watch the movies, they changed way too much for me. They are great visual wise, but the changes in the story...grrr just made me mad.


----------



## martryn (Dec 17, 2008)

Poor Gimli.  He was such a badass during the Mines of Moria and even during the attack at the end of the movie, and then the second movie comes out and he's a fucking pussy.  

The three main complaints I have about the second Lord of the Rings movie:
1.  Faramir is made to seem weak of character.
2.  The ents don't decide on their own to attack Saruman.
3.  They bring in Haldir, and kill him, for no fucking reason.


----------



## Dream Brother (Dec 17, 2008)

I vastly preferred the LotR movies to the books, even taking into account a few flaws here and there. Then again, I was never a big fan of the books, whereas I'm in love with _A Song of Ice and Fire_. If they screw it up I'll hurt them.

On another note, has this been posted yet?

[YOUTUBE]Lnn3-RrP7us[/YOUTUBE]

This guy desperately wants to be in the series, it seems. People seem to think that he'd make a good Theon or Viserys -- he attempts to act out their parts in the video, if you're curious.


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Yeah, Avery, I saw that.

He's a good actor, but Jon and Theon are too manly for him... so to speak, Viserys I can see him as.


----------



## martryn (Dec 17, 2008)

> On another note, has this been posted yet?



Ha ha ha ha ha!  Hilarious!  

I'd say he might make a good Littlefinger.  He sorta seems slimy.  I'm curious what he'd look like with facial hair.


----------



## jkingler (Dec 17, 2008)

I pretend they're unrelated. So I am able to enjoy them, for the most part. 

I just have to make an extra effort to ignore the Gimli and Gandalf nerfing, the Faramir,  Theoden, and Elrond character assasination, and making Legolas, Arwen, and the Oathbreakers out to be a lot more spiffy than they're actually supposed to be.

Even though the Oathbreakers operating like rabid large-scale neon green macrophages is kind of cool, the awesome factor is diminished by it's obvious deus ex machina usage.

Re: That guy. I'm considering him for the part of Robb, just cause I'd like to see some well-fletched arrows sticking out of his face.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 17, 2008)

I can never view movies and books as unrelated. its too hard for me. 



> On another note, has this been posted yet?



I'd think he would make a good Viserys as well. Not Jon though. Jon must be hot.


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Jon should look more bold, fleshed out and well, less feminine, no offence to Avery Clark. Same goes for Theon, but he should also have a darker look to him.


----------



## Felix (Dec 17, 2008)

That was... corny
He does not portray the characters like I imagine them
I imagine them manly, he looks flameboyant


----------



## martryn (Dec 17, 2008)

> That was... corny
> He does not portray the characters like I imagine them
> I imagine them manly, he looks flameboyant



That's what a director is for.  To sorta point the right direction for character growth and portrayal and shit.  I'd rather have someone like him, who knows the books and loves the story, playing the part of someone, than an actor who has no vested interest in it.  

Elijah Wood made a great Frodo, and Viggo Mortensen an excellent Aragorn.  There are reasons for that.


----------



## Dream Brother (Dec 17, 2008)

I actually liked his take on Viserys, haha.


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Felix said:


> That was... corny
> He does not portray the characters like I imagine them
> I imagine them manly, he looks flameboyant



Viserys was flamboyant.


----------



## jkingler (Dec 17, 2008)

Viserys I could see, too. His crown would fit wondrously.


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Only thing I'm not sure about Avery is the fact that he's an experience stage actor, not a film actor... there's a difference, though if he gets a role it should be Viserys.


----------



## Batman (Dec 17, 2008)

I personally liked Avery's Theon the best. I thought his Viserys was way too viscious. I wanted it to be whiner. And when he did his Jon, I wanted him to say "Power Converters" just once. lol


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Dec 17, 2008)

I agree with Batman. I always imagined Theon as slightly effeminate and good looking - if only because the  Ironmen where all so hard. I thought his Visery's wasn't unstable enough.

As for his Jon. No. I always thought Jon would have close set, hard eyes, pinched lips. Basically like the kind of guy who is always struggling in a war or something. This guy just looked too soft and well-adjusted.


----------



## Freija (Dec 17, 2008)

Batman said:


> I personally liked Avery's Theon the best. I thought his Viserys was way too viscious. I wanted it to be whiner. And when he did his Jon, I wanted him to say "Power Converters" just once. lol



Nah, his Theon was way too nice in my opinion, Theon flays the skin of children, and has a beard... not to mention the fact that he's supposedly well/normal built where as Avery looks very skinny.


----------



## Nakor (Dec 17, 2008)

that guy was fun to watch. i didn't really like any of them. i thought they all were off from what the characters were supposed to be. a director could improve this though. his viserys was probably the best IMO.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Dec 17, 2008)

Freija the Dick said:


> Theon flays the skin of children,



Wow, if i have forgotten something like that then it really has been too long since i last read the books.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 18, 2008)

Freija the Dick said:


> Well, if George hasn't found any problem with it I doubt we will.


George could turn out to be a sellout asshole who lost interest in his story and just wants the dough.  You have 100% faith?  He already (potentially) lied when he said it was a faithful adaptation.

I'm being reasonable and hoping it won't happen.  In fact, this is easily explainable.  But I'm prepared to admit terrible could happen to any story.  I might not like what they come up with as the difference.


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2008)

It was a faithful adaptation, as far as it can be I suppose.


----------



## Draffut (Dec 18, 2008)

Man, i'm still not dome book 2 (despite I have spoiled myself on like everything) i really need to get caught up.


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2008)

Read faster man.


----------



## Draffut (Dec 18, 2008)

Freija the Dick said:


> Read faster man.



I really should, Like 95% of my reading gets done while I travel, and i haven't traveled in months, so it is at a standstill.  I don't een remember where i was in the book anymore.


Though I do own all 4 books, and scrounged them up yesterday so I could get started again.


----------



## Felix (Dec 18, 2008)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> I really should, Like 95% of my reading gets done while I travel, and i haven't traveled in months, so it is at a standstill.  I don't een remember where i was in the book anymore.
> 
> 
> Though I do own all 4 books, and scrounged them up yesterday so I could get started again.



You don't read in the Bathroom nor at bed?


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2008)

I pretty much only read in bed


----------



## Draffut (Dec 18, 2008)

Felix said:


> You don't read in the Bathroom nor at bed?



Magazines in the bathroom, and i am usually on these forums before I go to bed.


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah, but in bed?


----------



## martryn (Dec 18, 2008)

I usually read on the shitter or in bed.  Sometimes I'll read in the middle of day.  It all depends on how interesting it is.  The fourth book really hasn't been as interesting as I would like.  I want more Dorne and Arya, but all I'm getting is Iron Islands and Cersei.


----------



## Dream Brother (Dec 18, 2008)

I found the fourth book to be easily the weakest out of the series so far. That's manly due to the (frankly idiotic) decision to split the tale by POV/location and have the other half in _A Dance with Dragons_. Bad move. I would have _vastly_ preferred a more standard 'part one/part two' format -- it was done before, and the result was great. For those who don't know:



> To date, A Storm of Swords is the longest novel in the series. *It was so long that in the UK its paperback edition was split in half*, Part 1 being published as Steel and Snow in June 2001 (with the one-volume cover) and Part 2 as Blood and Gold in August 2001 (with a specially-commissioned new cover).



Ah well. The book was still good, and even when Martin's not at his best he's still better than the majority of stuff in the current fantasy genre.


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2008)

Problem is he's lazier than all of them put together


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 18, 2008)

I want a Book with more than like 4 Bran Chapters where he gets the Luv he deserves 


Question has the HBO series come out yet?


----------



## Nakor (Dec 18, 2008)

no the hbo series hasn't come out yet. it hasn't even been cast yet.


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2008)

Still in pre-production I suppose.


----------



## Batman (Dec 18, 2008)

At least the pilots been written and approved. Let's hope it get's picked up.


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 18, 2008)

And to hoping the casting producer does awesome and Picks a Brandon that'll make you squeel at the cuteness


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2008)

Maya, are you a girl ?


----------



## Draffut (Dec 18, 2008)

Freija the Dick said:


> Yeah, but in bed?



Well, I am makign a trip back home next week, and my dad has already planned to visit a ton of relatives, so lots of driving.

I should have time to finish book #2 and most of #3 by New Years.


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2008)

Sounds awesome  Then you can keep up with our musings and theories =)


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 18, 2008)

And if you don't have the attention span to notice all the details and plots and thoeries, there is  a forum thats very nice and don't be nasty if you turn up clueless and ask loads of questions needing explainations 


@freija yip


----------



## Draffut (Dec 18, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> And if you don't have the attention span to notice all the details and plots and thoeries, there is  a forum thats very nice and don't be nasty if you turn up clueless and ask loads of questions needing explainations
> 
> 
> @freija yip



My little brother was reading the 4th book when he got me to start the series, so I usually call him about questions I have.  He actually remembers all that stuff.  he probobly remembers the point I stopped reading at better than myself.


----------



## Freija (Dec 19, 2008)

MOTHAF*'******* THAT MONEYGRUBBING OLD GEEZER




Check comments, he fucking sold some AGOT game on his LJ  that just looks wrong


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 19, 2008)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> My little brother was reading the 4th book when he got me to start the series, so I usually call him about questions I have.  He actually remembers all that stuff.  he probobly remembers the point I stopped reading at better than myself.




Smart siblings 100 points



Freija the Dick said:


> MOTHAF*'******* THAT MONEYGRUBBING OLD GEEZER
> 
> 
> 
> ...



suppose i'll have to click the link to understand what you're on about


----------



## Draffut (Dec 19, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> suppose i'll have to click the link to understand what you're on about



They made a pen and paper RPG (Like D&D) based on this series.

He had some of the books which were damaged by watermarks that he was trying to pimp out for half price.


----------



## martryn (Dec 19, 2008)

Half price for the books is still $55.  Damn.  That's a ruckng rip-off.  A complete set of DnD core books goes for about $110 dollars, I guess, but at least there are fucking three of them.


----------



## Freija (Dec 19, 2008)

not to mention he threw in a personal letter and an autograph.


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 19, 2008)

Hey does anyone know why there is no Fan fiction in ASoIaF ?


----------



## Freija (Dec 19, 2008)

What do you mean ?


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 19, 2008)

Freija the Dick said:


> What do you mean ?



Theres No Fan fiction stories like on FFnet

There are a few Adult fan fiction stories but no regular stories


----------



## Freija (Dec 19, 2008)

I don't know, respect for Martin ? too much unknown variables? Fanfics are boring ?


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 21, 2008)

I would not read Fanfics for this series. Or any other series I like. They would just kinda ruin it for me.


----------



## Freija (Dec 21, 2008)

I agree, they would warp my senses of a series.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 21, 2008)

And 99% of them are just horrible. ugh its like when some person is singing a song horribly. I just want to listen to the original singer, not the person who can't sing for crap.


----------



## Freija (Dec 21, 2008)

It's like me singing then


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 21, 2008)

I can't sing either, but at least i don't do it when other people can hear.


----------



## Freija (Dec 21, 2008)

I do it every time, and I pick their favourite songs, do a direct translation to swedish in my head and sing it horribly on swedish with a badly pitched voice... just for the kicks.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 21, 2008)

haha nice

Do people ever ask you to stop singing?


----------



## Freija (Dec 21, 2008)

I've gotten death threats.


"Peter, shut up before I strangle you!"

I wonder if anyone has threatened G. R R Martin


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 21, 2008)

wow that bad? I never heard someone that bad.

lol he probably has.


----------



## Freija (Dec 21, 2008)

quoting a commenter on his blog




> *Prediction!!*
> GRRM will pass away at the ripe old age of 92, just weeks after A Dance With Dragons is published. His dying words will be his expression of regret over never completeing his life long passion, editing the 23rd Wildcards book, titled Two Nines, a Deuce, a Four, and a Jack, the final book in the series.
> I keed, i keed. Calendar looks great, and you are the best George.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 21, 2008)

lol at the age the put "92"


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2008)

I was at the bookstore and saw a book called Dance of Dragons. I lol'd.


----------



## Freija (Dec 21, 2008)

Well, at least you didn't get your hopes up


----------



## Mori` (Dec 22, 2008)

thought I'd pop this here rather than the theatre since a search didn't show me a thread and I can't be bothered to create a new one just for it.

Pilot script for the first ep of HBOs a game of thrones


----------



## Freija (Dec 22, 2008)

Yeah, it was posted like a few pages ago. It looks awesome!


----------



## Mori` (Dec 22, 2008)

lulz teaches me to not read back =p


----------



## Freija (Dec 22, 2008)

What'd you think about it  Some people said it looked lame because they had new scenes


----------



## Mori` (Dec 22, 2008)

nah, i think the new scenes seem pretty good, when you've got to adapt the story from one medium to another there's obviously a few things you have to do to make it play out in a suitable fashion and I think the additions, particularly this early on, should help the whole storys continuity.


----------



## Freija (Dec 22, 2008)

Yeah, but I feel they should have added the whole fight scene against the Others.


----------



## Watchman (Dec 22, 2008)

Same with me - I think they should have added more with the Others, but aside from that have no complaints, and don't mind them adding new scenes so long as they don't have massive character derailment.

Have they revealed any of the actors yet?


----------



## Freija (Dec 22, 2008)

I don't think they've begun casting.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 24, 2008)

I hope george doesn't get a heart attack when he is feasting this christmas


----------



## Freija (Dec 24, 2008)

All that high cholesterol food and that fried chicken from KFC? I'd be amazed if he didn't.


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 24, 2008)

~Yoruichi~ said:


> I hope george doesn't get a heart attack when he is feasting this christmas



Like hell If that where to happen the entire fandom would drag him back from hell by his lazy ass


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 24, 2008)

Freija the Dick said:


> All that high cholesterol food and that fried chicken from KFC? I'd be amazed if he didn't.


And what ever he drinks to down it all


-Maya- said:


> Like hell If that where to happen the entire fandom would drag him back from hell by his lazy ass



They might.


----------



## Felix (Dec 30, 2008)

Still no news about ADWD
Damn that lazy bastard


----------



## Freija (Dec 30, 2008)

Money grubbing old bastard.


----------



## Draffut (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, in lieu of finishing the second book I just had my brother tell me everyhing that happens from there to the end of book four.


----------



## Freija (Dec 30, 2008)

You just fucked up. The third book is definitely worth reading rather than getting it spoiled.


----------



## martryn (Dec 31, 2008)

Now that I'm (almost) done with the fourth book, I'm taking this time to try to acquaint myself with the secondary characters.  The Crakehalls are particularly interesting to me.  Want to see more of Strongboar.


----------



## -Maya- (Dec 31, 2008)

Freija the Dick said:


> You just fucked up. The third book is definitely worth reading rather than getting it spoiled.




It really depends on the reader like me for example if i had not gone on to the ASoIaF boards i would not be as knowledgable as i am i wouldn't know all the things i know Like Sarella being the sphinx


----------



## martryn (Dec 31, 2008)

> i wouldn't know all the things i know Like Sarella being the sphinx



Wow, damn, didn't catch that either.


----------



## Mori` (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm re-reading a clash of kings right now (skipped AGOT since i thought i remembered it all, it's becoming obvious I didn't but i won't go back now xD) and it's entirely re-enthused me about Martins series. I'd forgotten how excellent the characters were.


----------



## Freija (Dec 31, 2008)

Yeah, and then you remember that he doesn't release the fucking book


----------



## Moonshine (Jan 2, 2009)

-Maya- said:


> I'm a Branx hottest girl fan myself



Gonna wait till he is of age?


----------



## martryn (Jan 2, 2009)

So, I'm at the part in book 4 where Brienne makes it to Saltpans, or that abbey place right before she goes there.  I haven't finished the chapter yet (a short dump, instead of a long one), but the horse in the stables is obviously Clegane's.  When they were walking up to meet the head dude, they seem a gimp monk doing weeding or something that is described as bigger than Brienne.  It doesn't mention any marks on his face or much else about him, but is it possible that that monk is Clegane starting a new life for himself in piety, now that's he's faced death.  Perhaps he's had a change of heart and lifestyle once he finds out his brother is dead. 

Just thoughts I had on the crapper, since I'm looking everywhere for clues on Sandor's whereabouts.


----------



## -Maya- (Jan 2, 2009)

mister. pek said:


> Whenever I see this thread active. My hatred for George grows a bit stronger even though I hate him as much as I could hate a person T__T



You can't Say you hate him without listing the reasons why!

is it;

-He's a lazy guy who needs to put out ADWD NOW 
-You hate him for the creation of a character like Jon snow
-Or my personal fav hate him because of the Lacking amounts of Bran chaps


----------



## Freija (Jan 2, 2009)

mister. pek said:


> Whenever I see this thread active. My hatred for George grows a bit stronger even though I hate him as much as I could hate a person T__T



I feel your pain


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

martryn said:


> So, I'm at the part in book 4 where Brienne makes it to Saltpans, or that abbey place right before she goes there.  I haven't finished the chapter yet (a short dump, instead of a long one), but the horse in the stables is obviously Clegane's.  When they were walking up to meet the head dude, they seem a gimp monk doing weeding or something that is described as bigger than Brienne.  It doesn't mention any marks on his face or much else about him, but is it possible that that monk is Clegane starting a new life for himself in piety, now that's he's faced death.  Perhaps he's had a change of heart and lifestyle once he finds out his brother is dead.
> 
> Just thoughts I had on the crapper, since I'm looking everywhere for clues on Sandor's whereabouts.



That Sandor is the grave digger at the Island Monastery is the prevailing fan theory.


----------



## Freija (Jan 4, 2009)

It probably is him as GRRM said his story about Sandor isn't over.


----------



## martryn (Jan 4, 2009)

> That Sandor is the grave digger at the Island Monastery is the prevailing fan theory.



Awesome.  After his horse made an appearance I just knew he would be around somewhere.


----------



## jkingler (Jan 9, 2009)

> Just thoughts I had on the crapper, since I'm looking everywhere for clues on Sandor's whereabouts.


Did you look _in_ the crapper?

/only cares about more Jaqen atm


----------



## Buskuv (Jan 9, 2009)

I refuse to look at any other post, even if they are mindless banter; some of them may contain spoilers, and I'd probably murder a few people if I was spoiled.  I'm on _A Storm of Swords, _and will probably be done by next week.  I've rarely read books that I can't put down, and this is one of them.

Tyrion is easily my favorite character in the book right now.  Some others, such as Sandor Clegane, Jaime, and Davos have also interested as standout characters/storylines in recent books.


----------



## martryn (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm loving Bronn right now.  And Jaime has grown on me.  And all the younger Tyrells.  And I'm loving Dorne.  I really don't want to finish this book.  I'm probably a good three hours of solid reading from finishing book four, and I don't want it to end.  I don't know what I'd read.  

I'm not really feeling Arya anymore.  She's become _that_ girl.  Little miss "can't do anything wrong" and is a prodigy at what she does do.  She thinks too highly of herself.  And I miss the rest of the Starks.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 10, 2009)

I did feel Arya's part in the fourth book was kind of bland.


----------



## martryn (Jan 10, 2009)

It's not that it's uninteresting, it's her attitude.  She's been without a real authority figure for a long time now.  She needs someone to sorta beat her back into shape.  She's grown arrogant.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 10, 2009)

It'll probably come soon if the book after ADWD ever happens.


----------



## Freija (Jan 10, 2009)

ADWD will happen, question is, will Winds of Winter ?


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 10, 2009)

That probably depends on the reviews that ADWD gets. One of the reasons GRRM is taking so long is because of the bad reviews AFFC got, he said something like i don't want another one of my books to get such bad reviews so i'm gonna work very hard on them. 

If a ADWD gets pretty bad reviews then it might just break his will to write or something.


----------



## Freija (Jan 10, 2009)

No, the reason is that he does 200000 other projects on the side that we don't want.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 10, 2009)

Hence why i said one of the reasons, besides he has always done his little side projects before - apparently he can't write well if he focus' on just one thing.


----------



## Freija (Jan 10, 2009)

Apparently he can't focus well if he does many things at once. at least if he does one thing it gets done.


----------



## Moonshine (Jan 10, 2009)

He is too focused on football and food than his writing.


----------



## Dionysus (Jan 10, 2009)

GRRRM > GRRM


----------



## Felix (Jan 10, 2009)

Yo dawg I herd you like writing. So we put a project inside your project so you write while you write


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 10, 2009)

GRRM has always been a slow writer. If you look at the speed in which he put out stories it's always been below the Fantasy average.

Robin Hobb wrote nine book in her excellent series in nine years 

Anyway, just read something else. There are loads of great Fantasy series out there.


----------



## Freija (Jan 10, 2009)

Moonshine said:


> He is too focused on football and food than his writing.



Pizza the Hut you mean ?


----------



## Moonshine (Jan 10, 2009)

^ yep i mean him


----------



## martryn (Jan 15, 2009)

I just read the chapter where Brienne is hanged.  Man, I really, really fucking hate the Brotherhood without Banners now.  I can't believe, in the third book, that I sorta liked them.  They've gone from being freedom fighters or whatever, to being totally irrational and heartless sons of bitches.  They'll hang or kill anyone remotely related to the fucking Lannisters.

And now I can see why people hate Catelyn so much.  She's a fucking bitch.  God, I wish she'd just fucking die.  I know that the undead seem to have made an appearance in the series already, but a fucking zombie?  What the fuck?  

So, what does everyone think that one word that Brienne yelled out was?  I imagine she'll be fine, or rather, that her part in the story isn't finished yet.  Are there any leading theories about this?  

And do you think they'll have just killed Pod and Ser Hyle?  Seems to me that Pod shouldn't die, since they made a big deal about reintroducing him in this book.  Hyle Hunt, though, seems to be doomed.  Hopefully all three will make it out of this, but....  Man, and I was starting to like Ser Hyle too.  

Argh!  And the worst part is that we'll have to fucking wait until the 6th book, likely, to find out what the fuck happened!  George R.R. Martin is a fucking ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) fucker!  That fat fuck needs to be put in author prison.  Maybe lock him up with nothing but a typewriter for 8 hours a day.  Perhaps some sort of inspirational stuff if that's what helps him write.  Every time he finishes a chapter they'll give him a SlimFast bar, otherwise it's just bread and water and some vitamins.  Once a book is finished he can hit the buffet.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 15, 2009)

Chill out and read the Farseer Trilogy


----------



## Freija (Jan 15, 2009)

Chill out and come up with interesting nicknames for mr Pizza the Hut instead.


----------



## Moonshine (Jan 15, 2009)

The lazy bastard needs to get a move on the book


----------



## Freija (Jan 15, 2009)

We can only dream.


----------



## Moonshine (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah thats all we can do at this point


----------



## Buskuv (Jan 16, 2009)

GODDAMNIT

I HATE THIS THREAD AND ITS SEEMINGLY HARMLESS SPOILER-CONTAINING POSTS


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 16, 2009)

I stayed out of this thread until I finished the 4th book.


----------



## martryn (Jan 16, 2009)

I didn't.  In fact, I've still got the last chapter to go.  I'm gonna read it right before I call it a night.


----------



## Moonshine (Jan 16, 2009)

I should really start on the fourth book. 

Not staying out of thread, i really don't mind spoilers.


----------



## martryn (Jan 16, 2009)

I just finished it.  Damn.  I don't really get it.  The book came out in 2005, and he said that book 5 would be out in a year, and that would mean 2006, or 2007 at the latest.  Now it's 2009.  Where is the book?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 16, 2009)

I find it hard to believe you can put these books down ?___?


----------



## Buskuv (Jan 16, 2009)

You can't.


----------



## Moonshine (Jan 16, 2009)

I was re-reading the books to get the fourth book to remember everything, but I got new books and read those, then video games. Sometimes when i am rereading a book i stop depending on what kind of mood i am in.


----------



## Freija (Jan 16, 2009)

I stop the re-reading when I think about how much I hate GRRM


----------



## Moonshine (Jan 16, 2009)

He is a dumb person made of Lard

but his books are good


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 16, 2009)

Your dissing of GRRM while masturbating furious for new books is pretty funny in a sad sort of way 

There are a bazzillion series just as good as ASOIAF. Read one of those.


----------



## Freija (Jan 16, 2009)

I disagree with above lie by henry.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 16, 2009)

Fanboy Cautious Consumer


----------



## Chai Tea (Mar 15, 2009)

Just finished the fourth book. I think Jaime is possibly my favorite character at the moment. Can't wait for A dance with dragons.


----------



## Arakasi (Mar 20, 2009)

*Love* the series, *Love* the characters(especially that Bastard Jaime), *Love* setting, and *HATE* the ridiculous wait. Seriously, ASoS is probably my favorite book of all time. I just hope GRRM doesn't lose the story, after all AFfC was noticeably the weakest outing of the series and _alot_ of good fantasy becomes crap during the middle act.


----------



## martryn (Mar 20, 2009)

A Feast for Crows has it's weak points, but it also had some of my favorite moments in the series as well.  I mean, the big reveal with Doran and Quentyn Martell?  Damn, I sorta saw it coming, but it was sure as fucking shit fun to see happen.  Everything in Dorne was badass, the stuff with Brienne was pretty cool, Jaime's chapters rocked, and even Samwell and Sansa had their moments.  I'm not so sure now that Petyr is as bad as everyone assumes he is.  I'm sorta starting to like him again, which is a fucking roller coaster for the character.  And even the few mentions of Bronn were enough to put me in utter glee at how awesome that character is.


----------



## Buskuv (Mar 20, 2009)

Damnit.

Everytime I see this thread updated, I get excited; it never comes true, though.


----------



## Moonshine (Mar 20, 2009)

By the time the next book comes out I might have finished the fourth book


----------



## Felix (Mar 22, 2009)

Fourth book is finally being published in Portuguese... So I'll read it again this time in my mother language.

Oh and yeah, cockblock guys, bumped the thread for nothing, but I miss the activity we used to have


----------



## martryn (Mar 23, 2009)

How old do you guys think Bronn is?  I've been considering submitting an audition tape for the part, if it hasn't been cast yet.  I'm lean and have darkish hair, and I've been practicing his lines from the first book, but I'm not quite 26, and I get the impression Bronn is in his early to mid 30's.  And I think I'm a young looking 26.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Mar 23, 2009)

I think they'd be looking for someone a little older and more hardbitten.

But audition anyway, they might like you enough to cast you as someone else.


----------



## martryn (Mar 23, 2009)

> hardbitten



Fuck you, I'm hard!  I'm a fucking badass!


----------



## Felix (Mar 23, 2009)

martryn said:


> Fuck you, I'm hard!  I'm a fucking badass!



Yeah we know
I get the impression the guy is around 35-ish


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Mar 23, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _ My recommendations of good Sci-Fi and Fantasy books to read while waiting for ASOIAF_ 



Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy. GRRM himself said he wishes he could write like her and all the ASOIAF fans I've recced it to loved it.

The first Trilogy is the "Farseer Trilogy." Then there' "the Liveship Trilogy." Then there's the "Tawny Fool Trilogy." All are set in the same world, though Liveship follows totally different character to Farseer and Tawny Fool which both follow Fitz. Start with the Assassins' apprentice, the first book in the series. If you like it and finish all of the Farseer books (Royal Assassins and Assassins Quest) then skip the Liveship trilogy and go straight onto the Tawny Fool books.

It's done in first person, the life of FitzChivalry Farseer, the unwanted bastard son of the Heir to the Throne from the age of five. It focuses on a few, well developed characters. It's low magic. Fitz has two kinds of magic but they're both pretty weak. It charts both his battles inside the court and his life, as well as with the faceless Viking Raider type dudes attacking the Kingdom.

My next rec is "The Lies of Locke Lamora." Basically think of "The Con" type thing (Oceans 11 ect) but in a fantasy world version of Venice. It has heaps wit, laughs and pace. After the introduction I must want you there's a dire section than put many people off, but endure it. It doesn't last all that long and once over the rest of the book is golden. The sequel is even better but you also start to see some of the forumlae in it's nature which made it less satisfying when I put it down.

"Jonathan Strange and Mr Norell" is about two wizards trying to restore magic to an alternate world 19th Century England. It's written in a style somewhat reminiscent of Jane Austin and is fucking huge.It's packed with info, side stories, footnotes and real world events.

Alan Moore's "Watchmen." If you haven't read it yet, do so. If you have, read Neil Gaiman's Sandman.

The Discworld series is epically funny. A few of my faves would be: Feet of Clay, Small Gods, Lords and Ladies, Watchmen... No need to read them in order. I didn't.

If you need more GRRM his "Dreamsongs" is great. Basically it's most of the short stories from his pre-pro days to the present. Almost all of them are fucking ace. Even better, the man himself talks about his life and ideas in-between writing periods. His book "Fevre Dream" is also brilliant.

The "Prince of Nothing" series by R. Scott Bakker might be worth a look. It's darker even than GRRM (At the end of the second book monster rape a guy's wife and kid to death in front of him, then him) and more magic heavy. The guy knows his philosophy (Though the book is not pretentious about it) and he knows his medieval history so pretty much every middle age culture has a counterpart.

It is a little bit of a mixed bag. One of the PoV character is often mediocre or even poor. But he's not in a majority, the other are awesome. Cnaiur and Khellus crossing the steppe is one huge mindgame and one of the best things ever written in a Fantasy setting. The second book is even better, pretty much perfect throughout. I haven't read the third one yet but the reviews have been mostly average sadly.

Tiger! Tiger! (Also called The Stars, My Destination) by Alfred Bester isn't even 300 pages long but has more in it than 1000 page novels. It was written in 1952 but could have been written yesterday. It's a fucking masterpiece in my opinion.

Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny is almost as good, but let down by a fairly weak ending. Still, by then everything is wrapped up so it hardly matters. It's a beautiful clash of sci-fi, modernity and Hinduism.

Frederik Pohl's "Gateway" is great too. Very personal, slip between the main character recolections about his past and his therapy treatment with an android Sigmund Freud.

Joe Abercrombie's "The First Law Trilogy"... well... I got through the first two books (500 pages apiece) in a day each. It's good, really good. Takes the usual Fantasy Tropes and subtly twists and subverts them. The only reason I haven't read number three is I've banned myself from new books until the current lot are read.

Black Man by Richard Morgan is my last rec. Although some people just think it's 800 pages of "I'm right hard me" I adored it. It's tough, gritty and thoughtful and considerate of what genetic manipulation of the human genome might be like.


----------



## martryn (Mar 23, 2009)

No one ever mentions anything by Stephen R Donaldson.


----------



## Moonshine (Mar 23, 2009)

To many books to read, so little time



> Really, I could have easily just handled three novels about Jon Snow and been done with it. Well, Jon, Tyrion and a little Arya for good measure. These three probably interest me the most, the rest of the characters, right now, are like the vegetables on George’s dinner plate. He doesn’t want them there, but he knows he needs them and he has to eat them if he wants another hamsteak (I think I have pork on the mind).* Which begs the question as to which has more pork in it, the U.S. stimulus package or George’s waistline*. Ouch! Sorry, sorry I don’t want to contribute to another Not-A-Blog meltdown.


----------



## Felix (Mar 23, 2009)

Moonshine said:


> To many books to read, so little time



Hahaha genius, but it's not right in some ways.
There are more characters that he cares for. Jaime being one


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Mar 23, 2009)

Moonshine said:


> To many books to read, so little time



It's canon: Being a fan of something makes you into a twat


----------



## Arakasi (Mar 23, 2009)

So does anyone think GRRM is going to get this book out before the end of the decade? I've heard this fall from a good number of fans, however I could see him easily spending another year or two with this book.

Also as a point of discussion, is anybody rather disappointed that he didn't include the five year gap?


----------



## Felix (Mar 23, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> So does anyone think GRRM is going to get this book out before the end of the decade? I've heard this fall from a good number of fans, however I could see him easily spending another year or two with this book.
> 
> Also as a point of discussion, is anybody rather disappointed that he didn't include the five year gap?



He gave a good reason why he didn't
Most of the Major characters wouldn't benefit from it, because of constant flashbacks.

He would end up writing everything that happened in the 5 years, which destroys the purpose of the gap


----------



## Moonshine (Mar 23, 2009)

Felix said:


> Hahaha genius, but it's not right in some ways.
> There are more characters that he cares for. Jaime being one


True, he does care for him. I just thought the bold in general was funny


The Pink Ninja said:


> It's canon: Being a fan of something makes you into a twat


Yeah sadly. And then people think your weird because you like something like a book series.


Arakasi said:


> So does anyone think GRRM is going to get this book out before the end of the decade? I've heard this fall from a good number of fans, however I could see him easily spending another year or two with this book.
> 
> Also as a point of discussion, is anybody rather disappointed that he didn't include the five year gap?



No I don't think he will


----------



## Dionysus (Mar 24, 2009)

GRRM will die of some obscure disease before the series is finished.


----------



## Crowe (Mar 24, 2009)

Dionysus said:


> GRRM will die of some obscure disease before the series is finished.


Thats the plan, the fat ugly lying piece of shit is trying to die whle he is on "top"


----------



## Moonshine (Mar 24, 2009)

Yep, he will most likely die before it ends. And if he does, he doesn't want anyone to finish the series


----------



## Arakasi (Mar 24, 2009)

He will pull a Jordan, but he won't let anybody finish his story.

IMO, the five year gap would have allowed the main players to mature and grow into their skills and powers: Arya would have had time to perfect her skills as a l33t assassin, Jon/Dany would have gained valuable experience and credibility as leaders, Cersei's fall could have been more gradual, Bran could have aged and legitimately gained his magic powers, Samwell becomes a Meister, and Sansa uses the years to become politically savvy.

I think some flashbacks, considering how well GRRM does them, would have been a small price to pay for having our heroes as logically capable of effecting/saving the world. Instead a bunch of kids are going to save/rule the world.


----------



## Kaiwai (Apr 11, 2009)

I just finished reading A Feast For Crows yesterday.

There's only one world that can describe GRRM: genius


----------



## Freija (Apr 11, 2009)

I would guess on Lazy... but okay genius works too.


----------



## Dionysus (Apr 12, 2009)

In other news, GRRRM's blog still continues to entertain.  GRRM's on the other hand...


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 12, 2009)

Dionysus said:


> In other news, GRRRM's blog still continues to entertain.



*Looks it up*

Wow, and I thought the people in this thread bitching about release dates were losers...

The Haiku were funny though


----------



## Freija (Apr 12, 2009)

Dionysus said:


> In other news, GRRRM's blog still continues to entertain.  GRRM's on the other hand...



.............


----------



## Felix (Apr 12, 2009)

FREIJA
LETS RESURRECT THIS THREAD WITH MAXIMUM VIGOR

After doing the second re-read of A Feast for Crows:

The book is pretty good. 
A Storm of Swords just left us in such a high state of high that we could not recognize a slight lower win


----------



## Freija (Apr 12, 2009)

Feast for Crows would've been so much better if we got any Arya/Bran/Jon.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 12, 2009)

It did have Ayra ?___?

And you'll get times two Jon in the next book


----------



## Freija (Apr 12, 2009)

Ok... it had two arya chapters....


And two times 0 = 0


----------



## Felix (Apr 12, 2009)

Freija the Dick said:


> Ok... it had two arya chapters....
> 
> 
> And two times 0 = 0



It had way more than two Arya chapters
Have you forgot all her training and shit at the Faceless God monastery or whatever that place is?

SHE ENDED UP BLIND


----------



## Dionysus (Apr 12, 2009)

Wasn't there one Jon chapter in FEAST?  (Haha.  Have to write like GRRM now.)  I hope there is more than two in DANCE.

I think there were four Arya chapters.

How many floors do you think GRRM's library tower has?  Will it be equipt with a powerful lift?


----------



## Arakasi (Apr 12, 2009)

Dionysus said:


> Wasn't there one Jon chapter in FEAST?  (Haha.  Have to write like GRRM now.)  I hope there is more than two in DANCE.



IIRC, Jon only appeared through Sam's POV in AFFC.


----------



## Dionysus (Apr 12, 2009)

Hm.  I remember...  Oh wait.  That was a chapter I read online.  Been so long it's like it's apart of the fourth book.


----------



## Nakor (Apr 12, 2009)

Dionysus said:


> I think there were four Arya chapters.



I dont' know why there were Arya chapters in feast at all. He seperated the characters by location and she shouldn't have fit into feast.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 12, 2009)

yeah but I think that her POV was necesary for some reason.
I reall want ADWD already but the book is not done yet


----------



## Felix (Apr 12, 2009)

Nakor said:


> I dont' know why there were Arya chapters in feast at all. He seperated the characters by location and she shouldn't have fit into feast.



She still shows up in ADWD
Which is great and all, we want more details on our Blind Loli killer machine


----------



## Nakor (Apr 12, 2009)

Felix said:


> She still shows up in ADWD
> Which is great and all, we want more details on our Blind Loli killer machine



Yeah I figured, it was just weird she was in it at all. it was such a tease.


----------



## Draffut (May 4, 2009)

Well guys, my friends picked up the new Green Ronin RPG for the series.  Should be interesting, we started building our house, and it's a pretty pathetic one.


----------



## Freija (May 4, 2009)

RPG for the series wut ?


----------



## Freija (May 4, 2009)

> Winter Is Coming... to HBO
> 
> * Apr. 21st, 2009 at 11:38 PM
> 
> ...


YES YES YES YES YES


----------



## Draffut (May 4, 2009)

Freija the Dick said:


> RPG for the series wut ?



Yes, there are 2 pen and paper RPG's for the series.  One was just recently released by Green Ronin, it's actually fairly well built despite the fact that it doesn't look like ANYONE proofread the book, we found many many flaws in a couple hours of building a house.


----------



## Freija (May 5, 2009)

Sounds both interesting and somewhat sad.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (May 8, 2009)

Tyrion


----------



## Freija (May 8, 2009)

WOHOOOOOO           !


----------



## Moonshine (May 8, 2009)

That guy is going to be Tyrion? Good:ho

I wonder how many KFC coupons Martin managed to get


----------



## The Pink Ninja (May 8, 2009)

He prefer pizza


----------



## Moonshine (May 8, 2009)

Does he eat himself like pizza the hut?


----------



## Freija (May 8, 2009)

Pizza the Hut likes pizza.


----------



## Moonshine (May 8, 2009)

If I had photoshop I'd put Martins head on pizza the hut. But alas I don't.


----------



## Freija (May 8, 2009)

I will... when I can be arsed.


----------



## Moonshine (May 8, 2009)

Arsed?


It will be cool if you do:ho


----------



## Freija (May 12, 2009)

> A Song of Ice and Fire Games Announced
> May 12, 2009 @ 2:56pm
> 
> Cyanide, an independent video game studio, and George R. R. Martin today announced their partnership to create the first-ever video games inspired by the author’s award-winning, international bestselling ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ fantasy series. Under the terms of the agreement, Cyanide has obtained the exclusive rights to develop ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ video games for next-generation consoles and PC, and in collaboration with George R.R Martin, development has begun.
> ...


.


----------



## Draffut (May 12, 2009)

Goddamnit, stop pimping your fucking books and write the next one before the cheesecake gets to you!


----------



## martryn (May 13, 2009)

Those games are gonna suck.  I can't see how they could possibly go over well.


----------



## Magus (May 14, 2009)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Goddamnit, stop pimping your fucking books and write the next one before the cheesecake gets to you!



Captured my thoughts exactly!


----------



## Lucaniel (May 16, 2009)

Just finished _A Game of Thrones_, and I am full of rage


----------



## Felix (May 16, 2009)

Lucaniel said:


> Just finished _A Game of Thrones_, and I am full of rage



Wait till you read "A Storm of Swords"
Your rage will be unparalleled

Seriously, continue reading, the books are epic win


----------



## Catterix (May 16, 2009)

I know I'm probably not going to get anywhere, but I just thought I'd say that I'm going to be auditioning for Jon Snow, Robb Stark and Theon Greyjoy for the pilot, there hasn't been a date set for the audition, but I contacted Nina Gold and they said they're interested.

I doubt I'll get a part, but I thought I might just give this little bit of info. Certainly very excited


----------



## Randomaxe (May 16, 2009)

Catterix said:


> I know I'm probably not going to get anywhere, but I just thought I'd say that I'm going to be auditioning for Jon Snow, Robb Stark and Theon Greyjoy for the pilot, there hasn't been a date set for the audition, but I contacted Nina Gold and they said they're interested.
> 
> I doubt I'll get a part, but I thought I might just give this little bit of info. Certainly very excited



Well good luck with Jon anyway, that part at least has a future. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



I wonder how ghost will deal with Jon flying on a dragon?


----------



## Catterix (May 16, 2009)

To be honest, I think I'd much rather have a smaller role. I'm starting Uni next year and being in a long-running TV show would really hold me back, but I'm happy to hold off Uni another year if I could do one series or something.


*Spoiler*: __ 



According to the character breakdown, the first season looks to be 10 episodes long, because it says that Jon Snow will be needed for 10 episodes. And then for all series. Whereas Robb's only needed for 8 episodes of series one, and then stays until season 3. Whilst Theon is needed for 7 episodes for season 1,, and will return in seasons 2 and 4.


----------



## martryn (May 17, 2009)

I want to audition for something, but I'd just want to be a random hedge knight or something.  Maybe one of Beric's crew.  Wasn't there an archer?  Or possibly one of those guys studying at the maester place.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (May 17, 2009)

Apparently casting is goning to be done almost exclusively from the UK. Something about Uk actors guild cards or something.


----------



## martryn (May 17, 2009)

Well, bugger all.


----------



## Lord Yu (May 17, 2009)

Westeros is based on medieval England.


----------



## Randomaxe (May 17, 2009)

Catterix said:


> To be honest, I think I'd much rather have a smaller role. I'm starting Uni next year and being in a long-running TV show would really hold me back, but I'm happy to hold off Uni another year if I could do one series or something.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I thought you'd want to make some coin.


----------



## attackoflance (Jun 22, 2009)

I am currently reading the dark tower and all attached books, after that I plan on reading the next WoT that is coming out and then rereading this series for the next book in line, read it awhile back and loved it, takes balls to do what he does with his characters.


----------



## martryn (Jun 22, 2009)

I came in here thinking there was news on the release.  False alarm.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2009)

Lowered expectations.


----------



## darthsauron (Jun 22, 2009)

martryn said:


> I want to audition for something, but I'd just want to be a random hedge knight or something.  Maybe one of Beric's crew.  Wasn't there an archer?  Or possibly one of those guys studying at the maester place.



There was an archer.  I think his name was Anguy.  He, Tom Sevenstrings, and some warrior (Lem?) captured Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie in A Storm of Swords.  I don't recall if they were in A Feast for Crows.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 22, 2009)

I don't recall Anguy being in AFFC

Lem is in it and so is Tom though


----------



## darthsauron (Jun 22, 2009)

Were they at Brienne's trial before zombie Catelyn?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 22, 2009)

Lem is the new Hound

Archer/Auguy I don't recall

Tom is working for jaime/Cate's brother


----------



## Pineapples (Jun 30, 2009)

Just finished a Game of Thrones.

*Wow*, that is all I can say. Looking forward to reading the rest of the series.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 30, 2009)

Don't read too fast bro


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 9, 2009)

O.O


----------



## Nakor (Jul 9, 2009)

nice website


----------



## martryn (Jul 9, 2009)

Bookmarked.  Now I can check the status nice and easy.  Probably look at it once a decade or so, just to be on the safe side.


----------



## Magus (Jul 11, 2009)

Dionysus said:


> *SamutBunnag*



Brilliant.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 14, 2009)

I've rarely had a series draw me in like this, but it did draw me in fairly quickly.  It jumped onto my very elite list of favorites quite quickly.


----------



## keiiya (Jul 19, 2009)

So I found some random art work. I don't think these have been posted before. ><;;


*Spoiler*: _<3_


----------



## keiiya (Jul 19, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _More <3_


----------



## Blue (Jul 19, 2009)

Good art is good *_____*


----------



## Watchman (Jul 19, 2009)

Pretty good art, though I don't recognise all the people (second picture from first post, chick with an axe; third picture in second post, looks too feminine to be Jaime; last picture of second post, no idea whatsoever)


----------



## Blue (Jul 19, 2009)

Watchman said:


> (second picture from first post, chick with an axe;


No clue actually; I'd say Jon's girlfriend but she had red hair.



> third picture in second post, looks too feminine to be Jaime


 Joffrey, probably. 



> last picture of second post, no idea whatsoever)


Sansa with her hair net of doom.


----------



## Moonshine (Jul 19, 2009)

Seen a few of those before, but that is some good art.

grrm better get a move on the book already.


----------



## martryn (Jul 19, 2009)

> (second picture from first post, chick with an axe;



Supposed to be Asha.


----------



## Blue (Jul 19, 2009)

martryn said:


> Supposed to be Asha.



I thought Asha was blonde. 

Oh well, I'd hit it either way.


----------



## keiiya (Jul 19, 2009)

Ah, sorry. I should have named them.

First post:
Aeron.
Asha.
Cat.
Cersei in the next two pics.
Dany in the next three pics.
Gregor in the next two pics.


Second post:
Jamie in the first two pics.
Joffrey.
Jon in the next three pics.
The Sky Tower I think where Marillion was kept.
Random Nightswatch.
Sansa.


----------



## Nakor (Jul 19, 2009)

Alot of those are from The Art of a Song of Ice and Fire.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 20, 2009)

That is pretty good art.  It's always nice seeing the creativity a good author can inspire in artists.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 20, 2009)

I heard this and Malazan book of the fallen are the best epic fantasy series ever. After i'm done with what im reading now i intend to read these two series.


----------



## martryn (Jul 20, 2009)

Read Ice and Fire first.  Then, you can read all of Malazan and Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth, the Bible, War and Peace, the complete works of Mark Twain, and any back issues of Time Magazine you have lying around.  Then you'll only have to wait a few more months for the next RR Martin to be released.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 20, 2009)

KidTony said:


> I heard this and Malazan book of the fallen are the best epic fantasy series ever. After i'm done with what im reading now i intend to read these two series.



Malazan is great if you love epic angst. 


Seriously though, Deadhouse Gates was fucking great. The other books I could piss on. Wonderful plotting, atmosphere, and richly detailed setting, but shitty characterization and silly philosophy. 

A Song of Ice and Fire is fanfuckingtastic and a half but the author needs to get his hands out his pants and put a new book on the shelves. At this rate I think I'll beat him to the stacks with my own novel series.


----------



## Suigetsu (Jul 21, 2009)

any news on a dance with dragons yet? 
And I mean NEWS , not that if it is out yet.

Anyhow are there any pics of the Blackstar of dyne? that is my favorite house of all.
Badass and not spoiled.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 21, 2009)

martryn said:


> Read Ice and Fire first.  Then, you can read all of Malazan and Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth, the Bible, War and Peace, the complete works of Mark Twain, and any back issues of Time Magazine you have lying around.  Then you'll only have to wait a few more months for the next RR Martin to be released.


hehe

Well, I'm reading Jordan now so i'm gonna finish the WOT books, and then I'll move on to Martin.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 21, 2009)

Malazan Book of the Fallen absolutely wreck anything GRM has written IMO, though I don't deny his skills.  Steven Erikson just did such an awesome job setting up an entire world, peoples, conflicts, etc. that GRM doesn't really come close.  His strength is more in the character interaction, development, and prose, which I think he probably does a bit better than Erikson. 

And FYI, Memories of Ice was probably the best of the series thus far, though I do have to go back and read the earlier stories to catch back up.  But I remember loving the story of MoI, along with the absolutely sick cover illustration for the American hardcover.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2009)

Sean Bean as Eddard Stark?  What do you people think? Indonesian thread

I prefer Martin to Erikson.  The workhorse is great, but I don't prefer the almost silly epic style he uses.  It's very...  ancient Greek.  Fun books though.


----------



## martryn (Jul 21, 2009)

All casting looks amazing!  I really think they can make it work.  Now, if as much progress has been made on the book....


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 21, 2009)

1TrueSensei said:


> Malazan Book of the Fallen absolutely wreck anything GRM has written IMO, though I don't deny his skills.  Steven Erikson just did such an awesome job setting up an entire world, peoples, conflicts, etc. that GRM doesn't really come close.  His strength is more in the character interaction, development, and prose, which I think he probably does a bit better than Erikson.
> 
> And FYI, Memories of Ice was probably the best of the series thus far, though I do have to go back and read the earlier stories to catch back up.  But I remember loving the story of MoI, along with the absolutely sick cover illustration for the American hardcover.



Memories of Ice made me put the series down. The wangst killed me. Plus the Pannion Domin were cartoonishly over the top yet at the same time their threat seemed neutered as almost every time they were mentioned talk derailed into the force behind them being bigger and badder. By the time the pannions actually started to attack I couldn't take them seriously anymore. Plus when you finally get to an inner understanding how the Pannions "convert" it just makes no fucking sense. So much else about the Malazan world was rich and so on but I just couldn't get behind the whole Pannion thing. 

Thinking more on before the Pannions. Erikson, I felt did a terrible job of buildup to it. All I remember about the alliance's formation is "Hey guys derez dis great evul empire moving this way. Let's put aside our differences and team up!" He never gave us a proper explanation as to what event that led to two armies who've been at each other's throats for 12 years to band together for the greater good. It destroyed the tension for the first part of the book and nearly put me to sleep. 

I just can't understand why people like Memories of Ice so much. The atmosphere and action is so great, Magic system is neat too, but the characterization is weak,(I swear Picker and Blend are the same person) the plot leaps logic holes, plus there's the wangst. (OH God Itkovian just stop your bawwing)  Repetitive dialogue framing(Why does everything have to be growled, hissed or spat? Hell, what is with all the spitting?) Also random hook-ups.(Let us be lovers Whiskeyjack) 

By God, in retrospect the book is worse than I thought. I want to take a hatchet to it. 

Someone tell me why I shouldn't. 








On topic: Harbl Harbl Martin get back to work.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 21, 2009)

at your rant.  I don't do it to condescend, I've just never heard another fan's opinion about the book before.  

Maybe if I read it again, I'd feel the same way you do about the book, since I haven't read it since it came out in the US.  But to me the sheer potential of the storyline, plus the way Erikson builds the world, is what drew me into the books.  If anything, I like the later books in the series less than the earlier ones.  But, to get back on topic...

GoT on HBO?.  I just may get the channel so I can watch the show.

P.S. Boromir as Eddard Stark = win beyond what mortal man can comprehend.  I"m looking forward to it...


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 21, 2009)

It always feels like Erikson is pulling me in just to knee me in the balls. Bald bastard.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jul 22, 2009)

Mazalan didn't hold my interest enough to finish book one.

It had one really awesome character ("Son of Darkness, Knight of Darkness") and the rest of them were fairly limp.

He tried to make it uber big, like that makes a story better.


----------



## Watchman (Jul 22, 2009)

Sean Bean as Eddard Stark should be interesting, though I probably won't be able to watch him without seeing Boromir standing there, being _not quite_ as dignified and serious as I imagine Eddard Stark being.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 23, 2009)

Bean has often played characters who doubt themselves or have some similar inner struggle.  Eddard had that quality about him.  From being trust into the position with his brother's death to his promise to Lyanna, there is an internal struggle in the character.  Beaner has, from what I've seen, shown he can portray that kind of character.


----------



## crazymtf (Aug 14, 2009)

How is it I read the first book three years ago. Then reading the second book now. And the fifth is still not out yet or has a set date? I mean I'm trying not to read them before the 5th comes out cause i hear the 4th is disappointing but come the fuck on what is taking him so long?


----------



## Moonshine (Aug 14, 2009)

I finally read the fourth book this week and finished it...I love how at the end he talks of the book coming out the next year hopefully..and this was written in 2005.


----------



## crazymtf (Aug 14, 2009)

I know this is off topic but books similar to this I can read to fill in the time? It doesn't have to be exactly this but dark fantasy is always nice. Please no old language like Lord of the rings though, i know many love them but man those books are BORING.


----------



## Moonshine (Aug 14, 2009)

Personally I like the books of Shannara by Terry Brooks..otherwise this isn't really a fantasy series but Otherland Series by Tad Williams. And if you haven't read it, The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie.

EDIT: Shannara has some language like LOTR...so you might not like it.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Aug 14, 2009)

Terry Brooks is a smelly pile of shit.

Read The Name of the Wind

The Lies of Locke Lamora

And Joe Abercrombie's First Law series


----------



## Freija (Aug 14, 2009)

This fat pig isn't done yet?


----------



## Watchman (Aug 14, 2009)

I'd add to that list the Prince of Nothing series by R. Scott Bakker, and second that Terry Brooks isn't really a good author.


----------



## Magus (Aug 14, 2009)

Freija said:


> This fat pig isn't done yet?



Of course not.


----------



## martryn (Aug 14, 2009)

Shi- 

I can't believe, when reading the series last fall, that I actually thought that I was close on schedule to finish the last book when he would announce the release of the next one.  That was almost a year ago...  Now I understand, a little bit better, then anger and frustration inherent in this thread.


----------



## Freija (Aug 14, 2009)

MajSpike said:


> Of course not.



I know it was a dumb question but that fucking pile of pizzafat is starting to annoy me.


----------



## martryn (Aug 15, 2009)

> I know it was a dumb question but that fucking pile of pizzafat is starting to annoy me.



Starting?  You were annoyed when I first posted in this thread.


----------



## Freija (Aug 15, 2009)

True enough....


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 15, 2009)

This should be posted again, since the contributors are still going strong...


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Aug 15, 2009)

Dionysus said:


> This should be posted again, since the contributors are still going strong...



Biggest losers on the internet

Seriously


----------



## Nimander (Aug 15, 2009)

And imagine, GRRM doesn't understand the livid hatred many of his fans have towards him for the long wait for the next installment.  

I'm not gonna say I include myself among those, because I just discovered the series this year and have not had to wait like others who have followed the series since its first publishing.  But I do believe that authors have a certain responsibility towards their fans with series like these.  Some fans may hate on the author's work, some may needlessly bash it on forums, but as they say, "There's no such thing as bad publicity."  

People will come to read his books on the hearsay of others, whether good or ill, and thus validate all those hours spent in front of the computer, and with editors, and publishers, and whatnot, that the author had to go through.  So, in order to reciprocate that validation from the fans, the author should have a certain level of professionalism and timeliness to his publishing schedule.  People can understand unforeseen, spur of the moment clusterf***'s that can arise in a person's life, pushing everything else to the back burner.  But people find it harder to understand a situation that stalls a work for years and years at a time.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the issue.  Keep 'em, or throw 'em away.


----------



## Freija (Aug 15, 2009)

Pizza the hut won't finish the book this year either... I bet 10 bucks on it.


----------



## martryn (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm becoming convinced that the guy is just trolling us and never had any desire to finish any further books.


----------



## Freija (Aug 15, 2009)

That fat piece of shit.,


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 16, 2009)




----------



## Blue (Aug 16, 2009)

Wow, he really is kind of fat. The friend better get on a goddamn treadmill, because if he dies before finishing Dance with Dragons at the very least, I'm going to desecrate his corpse with a wheat thresher.


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 16, 2009)

He has said no one will be allowed to finish his work if he dies.  At least Jordan didn't pull a stunt like that.


----------



## isanon (Aug 16, 2009)

Blue said:


> Wow, he really is kind of fat. The friend better get on a goddamn treadmill, because if he dies before finishing Dance with Dragons at the very least, I'm going to desecrate his corpse with a wheat thresher.


and if dance of dragons dont contain lots of arya stark imma showe a threadlill up his fat ass


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 16, 2009)

Rahva Raamat is now a meme.



Rahva Raamat

Rahva Raamat

Rahva Raamat

Rahva Raamat

Rahva Raamat

Rahva Raamat


----------



## Freija (Aug 16, 2009)

Blue said:


> Wow, he really is kind of fat. The friend better get on a goddamn treadmill, because if he dies before finishing Dance with Dragons at the very least, I'm going to desecrate his corpse with a wheat thresher.



You and me both.


----------



## martryn (Aug 16, 2009)

> He has said no one will be allowed to finish his work if he dies. At least Jordan didn't pull a stunt like that.



Which is why I'm much happier with Wheel of Time than I am with Song of Ice and Fire.  GRRM barely ranks above Terry Goodkind in the _Fantasy Writers I Want to Kick in the Balls_ category.


----------



## Nimander (Aug 16, 2009)

Ah, GRRM.  I'm glad I wasn't a longtime fan.


----------



## Blue (Aug 17, 2009)

martryn said:


> Which is why I'm much happier with Wheel of Time than I am with Song of Ice and Fire.  GRRM barely ranks above Terry Goodkind in the _Fantasy Writers I Want to Kick in the Balls_ category.



Except Terry Goodkind is a hack who writes crap about the man he wishes he was and the girl he wishes he had, his entire plot nothing more than a character device, everything is 2 dimensional, and his descriptive writing is limited to distinguishing the shape of bouncing tits.

While GRRM is fucking amazing. So I can forgive him delays and being fucking fat if he'd actually finish one day. Not like I'm dying before he is, so I can wait.


----------



## martryn (Aug 17, 2009)

> Except Terry Goodkind is a hack who writes crap about the man he wishes he was and the girl he wishes he had, his entire plot nothing more than a character device, everything is 2 dimensional, and his descriptive writing is limited to distinguishing the shape of bouncing tits.
> 
> While GRRM is fucking amazing. So I can forgive him delays and being fucking fat if he'd actually finish one day. Not like I'm dying before he is, so I can wait.



Oh, I fucking hate Terry Goodkind.  I was suckered in to reading the last half of his series because the first three books were really rather good.  And then he found a soapbox.  Sure, there were moments in the latter half that were still nice writing, but those few moments did not make it worth reading that shit.  I read every single word of that series, and the prequel novel, but I said fuck it halfway through the last book.  I didn't even give a shit anymore.  What's the fucking point?  Richard can't lose if he tried.  He's so perfect his piss is nectar and his shit is ambrosia.  

And GRRM's writing is fucking amazing.  Best fantasy I've read, minus maybe Stephen R. Donaldson and a novel or two of David Gemmell (though he's not consistent).  

But if Martin was such a fantastic fucking writer, why won't he just finish a single fucking book once every five fucking years?  He churned them out every two years for his first three novels, and then hit a five year speed bump on book four.  He's still got three books to go, and I don't think he'll be around another fifteen fucking years.  If he wants to finish his life's greatest work, he needs to buckle his ass down and fucking finish them.


----------



## Blue (Aug 17, 2009)

Oh, you're talking about the whole philosophy of enlightened self-interest that he raged on and on about in the last few books? That might've been my favorite part of the series actually; not like he had any revolutionary ideas on the subject, and not like it really belonged in a fantasy novel, but by and large I agree with it, and so having Richard, as invincible and as perfect as he is, put it into practice in... what was the name of that book... *googles*

_Faith of the Fallen_ was kind of interesting. I have a lot of love for stories where a great man convinces others that they, too can be great (read: Gurren Lagann et al.) and accomplishes great things. Even though Richard was a two-dimensional ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) it was still kind of awesome convincing a bunch of suicidal communists to be manly.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 17, 2009)

Ewwww objectivism.


----------



## Watchman (Aug 18, 2009)

I still get a giggle out of the "armed only with their hatred for moral clarity" line.


----------



## Nakor (Aug 18, 2009)

I've honestly stopped looking for updates on ADWD. It's been so long. I will still be reading it when it comes out, but I'm not really excited for it anymore.


----------



## Fran (Aug 18, 2009)

Why am I even anticipating this release? I should have learned my lesson from Togashi


----------



## Nimander (Aug 18, 2009)

Nakor said:


> I've honestly stopped looking for updates on ADWD. It's been so long. I will still be reading it when it comes out, but I'm not really excited for it anymore.



^This


----------



## martryn (Aug 20, 2009)

> Oh, you're talking about the whole philosophy of enlightened self-interest that he raged on and on about in the last few books? That might've been my favorite part of the series actually; not like he had any revolutionary ideas on the subject, and not like it really belonged in a fantasy novel, but by and large I agree with it, and so having Richard, as invincible and as perfect as he is, put it into practice in... what was the name of that book... *googles*
> 
> Faith of the Fallen was kind of interesting. I have a lot of love for stories where a great man convinces others that they, too can be great (read: Gurren Lagann et al.) and accomplishes great things. Even though Richard was a two-dimensional ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) it was still kind of awesome convincing a bunch of suicidal communists to be manly.



I guess I just didn't like the whole idea of blanant Ayn Rand plagarism.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 20, 2009)

I've never looked for updates. I just looked for other books.


----------



## crazymtf (Aug 23, 2009)

Up to book 3 right now, far better read then 2 so far. Sorry felt 2 overall was weak, with some great chapters, some ok, and some just boring. But 3 so far every chapter has been interesting.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Aug 23, 2009)

The casting for the series so far looks inspired.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Aug 24, 2009)

Read first post, ordered it of Amazon. Impulsive thing for the week done and dusted


----------



## Freija (Aug 24, 2009)

Yeah, read book one, get caught in the series, read book 2-4, then anxiously await for the next book to be finished at the promised time... only to be pwnd by pizza the hut.


----------



## crazymtf (Aug 24, 2009)

Rob` said:


> Read first post, ordered it of Amazon. Impulsive thing for the week done and dusted



It's worth it, first book was well done. 2 was mostly a meh book for me. 3 on the other hand is great so far. 2 felt like it was building up and never did anything where 3 for me anyway has been engaging every chapter.


----------



## isanon (Sep 4, 2009)

only character worth reading about is arya stark 

if there isnt a crapload of arya stark in adwd then imma kill martyn


----------



## martryn (Sep 4, 2009)

> only character worth reading about is arya stark
> 
> if there isnt a crapload of arya stark in adwd then imma kill martyn



Arya got annoying real quick.  I sorta want her to be put in her place.  This isn't some fairy tale story, as Martin points out multiple times.  Arya is still a little girl, and though capable, she seems as if she's getting away with a lot.  It'd be nice to have her learn some humility.


----------



## Nimander (Sep 4, 2009)

Arya was intriguing to me because from the beginning, she honestly didn't take shit from anybody.  But you're right that she still is a kid in many ways, which is probably why what happened to her at the end of her role in Book 3 (I think?) happened.  GRRM's sadistic way of character development.  

But hey.  At least Arya wasn't Sansa.  Rarely have I wanted to choke an imaginary character more than when I read her parts in the novels.  I think she got character development only because GRRM couldn't conceivably make her any dumber.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Sep 4, 2009)

isanon said:


> only character worth reading about is arya stark
> 
> if there isnt a crapload of arya stark in adwd then imma kill martyn



How did you get through four books just reading Ayra?


----------



## Fran (Sep 4, 2009)

Arya was preeetty mediocre; generic fantasy heroine. Reminds me of Vin a bit.
Everyone warms to the enigmatic characters, e.g. the lannister brothers. I liked Jon's the best, underdog and shunned. 

And no, no Arya in Book #5 I assume - he said he's done with the book #4 character narratives, and focusing on different ones in book #5? something along those lines...


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Sep 4, 2009)

Generic fantasy Heroine? 

She's a psychotic, murderous, nine year old war orphan.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2009)

I think 11 by now. I forget. But that's pretty damn young for coldblooded killing even in fantasy.


----------



## Fran (Sep 4, 2009)

Like I said, a slightly younger version of Vin.
And not dissimilar to ehh... whats-her-name from Pullman's trilogy.

I thought the female characters were pretty dull in this series - except Lady Stark.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2009)

Vin from Mistborn? Arya and Vin are nothing alike. Vin was a paranoid introvert. Arya was wary but never paranoid. I've read that series and see virtually no similarities.  Lyra, is vaguely similar in that they're both very young and courageous. Oh wait, that's a genre staple. Though they have a somewhat similar attitude they're almost nothing alike.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Sep 4, 2009)

If you think Lyra is like Arya then I no longer have any trust in your analysis of literature


----------



## Fran (Sep 4, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Vin from Mistborn? Arya and Vin are nothing alike. Vin was a paranoid introvert. Arya was wary but never paranoid. I've read that series and see virtually no similarities.  Lyra, is vaguely similar in that they're both very young and courageous. Oh wait, that's a genre staple. Though they have a somewhat similar attitude they're almost nothing alike.



Hmm. I'm sure there's something more than just courage that made me link them together. Upon further reading tomorrow evening [I'm dead right now] I may (and probably will) retract my statement about her being generic.

And part of this is my blinding determination to hate this series :ho.


----------



## Watchman (Sep 5, 2009)

Mattaru said:


> Arya was preeetty mediocre; generic fantasy heroine. Reminds me of Vin a bit.
> Everyone warms to the enigmatic characters, e.g. the lannister brothers. I liked Jon's the best, underdog and shunned.
> 
> And no, no Arya in Book #5 I assume - he said he's done with the book #4 character narratives, and focusing on different ones in book #5? something along those lines...



I seem to remember Martin saying he'd wrap up the cliffhangers relating to Brienne and Arya in Dance of Dragons, but I don't have any sources at hand to cite.

And as the others have said, Arya isn't that generic.


----------



## Felix (Sep 5, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I think 11 by now. I forget. But that's pretty damn young for coldblooded killing even in fantasy.



I thought she was 13...
She is still a killer loli though


----------



## Freija (Sep 5, 2009)

Arya was 11 where the book last left us, unless she aged another year without saying so.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Sep 7, 2009)

So I'm halfway through 'A Storm of Swords' and I really can't work out if we're meant to like Dany or not. On the one hand she seems nice enough but then she is actually tempted to buy an army of eunuch slaves and declare war for the sake of her precious birth-"rights". But then that might actually be preferable to Joffrey.

Whatever back to book I go.


----------



## martryn (Sep 7, 2009)

Finish the book and then decide.  I didn't like Dany that much at first myself, but she grew on me by the end of the book.


----------



## Felix (Sep 7, 2009)

I hated Dany on the beginning but right now, she has really grown as a character, and I enjoy reading her chapters

That and she craves for cock everytime she goes to sleep. Slut


----------



## Freija (Sep 7, 2009)

Yeah, like seriously, how fucking horny can you get


----------



## martryn (Sep 7, 2009)

> That and she craves for cock everytime she goes to sleep. Slut



I don't see anything wrong with that.  I guess girls don't typically get that sex crazed, but most guys her age touch themselves every fucking night.  She just needs to be paired up, is all.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Sep 7, 2009)

A teenage Princess being sex mad is to be expected


----------



## Freija (Sep 7, 2009)

martryn said:


> I don't see anything wrong with that.  I guess girls don't typically get that sex crazed, but most guys her age touch themselves every fucking night.  She just needs to be paired up, is all.



 I just don't see how it's relevant to the story that she touches herself every fucking time she has a chapter... WE GET IT GRRM!


----------



## martryn (Sep 7, 2009)

> I just don't see how it's relevant to the story that she touches herself every fucking time she has a chapter... WE GET IT GRRM!



It's relevant to my penis once we see that shit live action.  Fucking p*d*p****'s dream!  I hope they film this shit in Spain.


----------



## Nimander (Sep 7, 2009)

I wouldn't be surprised if the next book in the series gets released around the Christmas season, since most other series are releasing their books at that same time as well.


----------



## Freija (Sep 7, 2009)

martryn said:


> It's relevant to my penis once we see that shit live action.  Fucking p*d*p****'s dream!  I hope they film this shit in Spain.



I think they said they were going to film in Irland or England or some other cool accent country.


----------



## Felix (Sep 7, 2009)

Freija said:


> I think they said they were going to film in Irland or England or some other cool accent country.



Northern Ireland


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 7, 2009)

Schlick schlick


----------



## Dionysus (Sep 8, 2009)

They might film elsewhere if the show is picked up...  They can get away with sets for a few of Dany's chapters.  Certainly enough for the pilot.  Eventually they might film her section...  somewhere that's more a desert than Ireland.


----------



## isanon (Sep 9, 2009)

The Pink Ninja said:


> How did you get through four books just reading Ayra?


 no i read the whole book even though i dont like much of it it might be nessecary to have read it later, i never skip parts in books just because i dont like the characters, if that was the case i wouldnt have read very much of either hobb, martyn or jordan (i fucking hate perrin)



Mattaru said:


> Arya was preeetty mediocre; generic fantasy heroine. Reminds me of Vin a bit.
> Everyone warms to the enigmatic characters, e.g. the lannister brothers. I liked Jon's the best, underdog and shunned.
> 
> And no, no Arya in Book #5 I assume - he said he's done with the book #4 character narratives, and focusing on different ones in book #5? something along those lines...


he said he would focus on the characters that wasnt in  7 kingdoms in adwd and arya isnt in 7 kingdoms at the moment 

also if you think arya is a generic fantasy heroine  you cant have read much fantasy 

the lanisters are horrible i cant like them one bit

jammie is such a missunderstood "good boy", cercei is such a lying, scheeming, powerhungry generic emo villianess that its not even funny and tyron, well every one is mean to tyron so tyron has to be mean to everyone 

jon is one of the better characters but he is to dutifull and the fact that he became lord commander of the nightwatch at what ?? 18 ?? its just ridiculus

bran ( i think the cripples name is bran) well wtf is up with him ?? a "pretty" girl and her brother comes to him and says go north of the wall and let your realm burn and he gos sure why not ??


----------



## Freija (Sep 9, 2009)

Wait, you read ASOIAF Isanon?


----------



## isanon (Sep 9, 2009)

Freija said:


> Wait, you read ASOIAF Isanon?


yeah that and just about every fantasybook i can get my hands on ....

witch reminds me  i have to buy a third bookshelf


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Sep 9, 2009)

Give them to charity.


----------



## isanon (Sep 9, 2009)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Give them to charity.


im not a nice person


----------



## Freija (Sep 9, 2009)

Isanon is a bad egg in a good town.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Sep 22, 2009)

BEHOLD!

NEW EGG AND DUNK IN MARCH!

woot


----------



## Nakor (Sep 22, 2009)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Link removed
> 
> NEW EGG AND DUNK IN MARCH!
> 
> woot



i haven't read any of them. Are they worth buying?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Sep 23, 2009)

They're great.

They're the reason I started reading ASOIAF


----------



## Freija (Oct 7, 2009)

Hmmm, so he's now saying he might make it to a deadline for once.


Also stop buying the fatties other products, then he might realize we do not care about his other works.


----------



## Felix (Oct 7, 2009)

I still have to read Egg & Dunk
I remember Aemon talking about Egg when he was dieing

Are those novels good?
On the other hand:

GIVE ME DwD DAMNIT


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Oct 7, 2009)

GRRM says he is in the closing stages now. The book is already longer than AGOT and AFFC and is closing in on ASOS


----------



## Freija (Oct 7, 2009)

Only 5 years


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Oct 7, 2009)

Have you just been waiting all that time?


----------



## Freija (Oct 7, 2009)

I've waited for 3 years 


And read other books, he's just so slow and fat


----------



## Nimander (Oct 7, 2009)

I only discovered this series this year.  And while it's good, GRRM is no Steven Erikson or Jim Butcher, so I look forward to his books for a good five years.  I'd most likely just drop the series after a year, year-and-a-half of waiting.


----------



## Freija (Oct 7, 2009)

I think this series is probably the best I've read, but it's also the slowest.


----------



## martryn (Oct 7, 2009)

GRRM writes a different kind of book.  I'd definitely place him in the upper echelon of fantasy writers, but Robert Jordan's world building skills and ability to lead fans to wild theories makes him an equal in my eyes.  And Stephen R. Donaldson wrote my favorite series of all time, though I've not seen anyone else on the forums mention him.  His writing is more old school fantasy.  It's like Tolkien realm with internal monologue.  And I've heard a lot of good things about Patrick Rothfuss.  They're saying he's the next amazing fantasy writer.


----------



## Nimander (Oct 7, 2009)

See, I'd wait five years for another Patrick Rothfuss book.  His shit is genius.


----------



## martryn (Oct 7, 2009)

> See, I'd wait five years for another Patrick Rothfuss book. His shit is genius.



Luckily we don't have to.  And he's still relatively young, not even 40.  He's got time to blow us away.


----------



## Freija (Oct 7, 2009)

GRRM is like pushing 60, fat as fuck and takes his time writing 10 different projects and editing wild cards and I don't know what.


----------



## Watchman (Oct 7, 2009)

*makes note* - I'll have to look into this Patrick Rothfuss fellow.


----------



## martryn (Oct 7, 2009)

> GRRM is like pushing 60, fat as fuck and takes his time writing 10 different projects and editing wild cards and I don't know what.



I'm thinking if he doesn't pick up the pace he will be dead before the last book comes out.  Five years between Storm and Feast, and then five years between Feast and Dance.  At this rate he'll be in his mid-70's by the time he finishes the series.  And, being a fat ass, he'll be dead by then.  



> *makes note* - I'll have to look into this Patrick Rothfuss fellow.



I heard about him first through a good friend of mine who happens to be a published fantasy writer (only small magazines so far).  My friend said that Rothfuss blew him away and was possibly the best fantasy he's ever read.  Then I started hearing about him online all the time.  He's only got a single book out, with another supposed to be released real soon, but I'd definitely check him out.  Name of the Wind is the book.


----------



## The Imp (Oct 7, 2009)

Didn't he already have most of it done before he had to split the book into 2?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Oct 7, 2009)

Patrick Rothfuss's _The Name of the Wind_ is epic, 5 star stuff.

It came out in 2007 and he hasn't released the sequel yet but his mother died and he got depressed, which is fair enough.

But yeah, it is a top flight fantasy book.


----------



## martryn (Oct 7, 2009)

> It came out in 2007 and he hasn't released the sequel yet but his mother died and he got depressed, which is fair enough.



I had heard the sequel was due out this fall.  Rothfuss submitted his first draft in May of this year, so says Wiki.  Shouldn't be too long of a wait.



> Didn't he already have most of it done before he had to split the book into 2?



I heard he had the plot done, and he had written a good deal of the book, when he realized that he was glossing over too much stuff that had taken place, so he went back and decided to write about the stuff he glossed over instead.  I take that as meaning that once he writes this book, he should be able to jump right in and get a quick released for his next book.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Oct 7, 2009)

He said ADWD was going to have a quick release too


----------



## Dream Brother (Oct 7, 2009)

I like Rothfuss, but I wouldn't call him _amazing_ or anything. In fantasy alone I prefer Martin, Hobb (excluding _Soldier Son_ stuff), Abercrombie, Stover, etc. _The Name of the Wind_ was still a great read though, and I'd join the others in recommending it. We have a thread for Rothfuss, if you guys are ever interested.


----------



## martryn (Oct 7, 2009)

Can't join the Rothfuss thread until after I finish reading _Fatal Revenant_.  Donaldson before Rothfuss.  While I'm sure Rothfuss is amazing, I gotta stick true to my roots and finish this Thomas Covenant stuff once and for all.


----------



## Teren_Kanan (Oct 10, 2009)

The time it takes for Martin to write his books is horrible 

Song of Ice and Fire are the novels that ruined most other novels for me, I've yet to find anything that truly compares. Best fiction I've ever come across, including all forms of anime/movies/tv shows.


----------



## Nimander (Oct 10, 2009)

Psh.  Like I've said, GRRM is a good author.  But he's not so good that I'm gonna be stalking his blogs or whatnot waiting for the next release.  That shit will just fall to the wayside, and ten years from now I'll suddenly remember I was reading a certain series and I'll catch up then.


----------



## Freija (Oct 10, 2009)

Martin doesn't write books, he hits random keys like one of those test monkeys until a story comes out.


----------



## Aruarian (Oct 10, 2009)

Teren_Kanan said:


> The time it takes for Martin to write his books is horrible
> 
> Song of Ice and Fire are the novels that ruined most other novels for me, I've yet to find anything that truly compares. Best fiction I've ever come across, including all forms of anime/movies/tv shows.



Read Malazan?


----------



## Freija (Oct 10, 2009)

^
What he said


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Oct 10, 2009)

Haha, Malazan xD


----------



## The Imp (Oct 10, 2009)

Hangat?r said:


> Read Malazan?



I'm somewhere in book 5 but I have to say I prefer ASoIaF. Erikson's world building is way better than Martin's and I like his plot a bit more as well but I think he is lacking in the character department. Malazan has such a giant cast of characters that a lot of them get the bare minimum of character development or in some cases none at all. I like Martin's characters a lot more and because his cast is smaller he can give everybody some development. The difference in characters vastly overcomes the difference in plot and world building for me.


----------



## Aruarian (Oct 10, 2009)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Haha, Malazan xD



wut           ?


----------



## Freija (Oct 10, 2009)

What's funny about the Malazan, Henry?


----------



## Teren_Kanan (Oct 10, 2009)

Unaware of Malazan. My first question would be, does he create a Grey world with Grey characters? As in no real good or evil? Martin is very realistic in that sense and it's something i love about this writing.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 10, 2009)

kurono76767 said:


> I'm somewhere in book 5 but I have to say I prefer ASoIaF. Erikson's world building is way better than Martin's and I like his plot a bit more as well but I think he is lacking in the character department. Malazan has such a giant cast of characters that a lot of them get the bare minimum of character development or in some cases none at all. I like Martin's characters a lot more and because his cast is smaller he can give everybody some development. The difference in characters vastly overcomes the difference in plot and world building for me.



I agree with this, though I am beginning to like Malazan more than ASoIaF. Some of the characters in Malazan are very well developed characters, it's just that there are so many and like you said, not all have much character development. Malazan series also has side novels for certain events and characters, which I think is nice.




Teren_Kanan said:


> Unaware of Malazan. My first question would be, does he create a Grey world with Grey characters? As in no real good or evil? Martin is very realistic in that sense and it's something i love about this writing.



Yes, however there are a few instances where it's obvious that certain "people" need to be killed off for the good of the world. But that is only a small part of the series(not even a full book). However, within those events, there are other events taking place which have no real good or evil aspect to them.


Today I was in Barnes and Noble and saw Martin's Dreamsongs Vol 1 on the bargain table for like $7 in hardcover. Proof that people only care about ASoIaF.


----------



## Freija (Oct 11, 2009)

I should go read Malazan right now, first book is so slow though D:


----------



## Nimander (Oct 11, 2009)

The climax of the book more than makes up for the rest of it, though.

GotM still has one of the best climaxes to a novel I've seen.  Ever.  And that number has to be somewhere in the thousands, tens of thousands with how much I read.

*edit* Erikson's strength in writing seems to be his ability to create a varied number of characters, then delve into their motivations.  The various things that make them click, their role in the world at large, how narrow or how wide their views of the world are.  You see the character go through all these things, you get an idea of how said characters think and operate, and by the time the climax comes around you see exactly why Erikson bothered even putting all that into the story.  

In a sense each story is a standalone, because each is a journey through the minds of the characters focused on, with each chapter lending something to the ultimate destination.

This might've been tl;dr, but it's my analysis of Erikson's writing, and it's something few other writers do as well.  That's part of why I like his writing so much.


----------



## Freija (Oct 11, 2009)

Still, he's way too slow and he's old and not exactly healthy.


----------



## Nimander (Oct 11, 2009)

Who?  GRRM?

Psh.  I've only started the series this year, and I'm already willing to put it down as it stands.  I've already said my piece about how authors owe a certain measure of timeliness to their fans.


----------



## Freija (Oct 11, 2009)

going on 6 years to finish the fifth book.


----------



## Nimander (Oct 11, 2009)

I mean, don't get me wrong on what I'm saying.  If authors are upfront about their reasons for a series being delayed, then that's them.  Family emergencies like Rothfuss had aren't things fans have any business sticking their nose in except to offer condolences.  Even writer's block, if the author is level with his/her fans about what's going on, is a good enough excuse.  I'd rather wait for a quality product that I understand may have a caveat attached, than anxiously await something that turns out to be crappy in the end.

But to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like GRRM is sitting on his laurels, somewhat.  His first four books were runaway successes, and now it's like, he's doing this completely on his own schedule now.  Like I said, I've only been following these series for some months now, so if there's someone in the know who knows I'm mistaken, let me know.  But thus far, I'm just going off of what I read on the few blogs and articles about/by him.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 11, 2009)

Freija said:


> I should go read Malazan right now, first book is so slow though D:



You should! If you haven't read any of them yet, it'll take you awhile to get through the 8 books that are out so far as they are on average 1000 pages. you can then dream that once you finish them, GRRM will have released the next book.


----------



## Dionysus (Oct 11, 2009)

Man.  If anyone here is writing a series, please keep your day job and release your shit in one complete set.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Oct 12, 2009)

Freija said:


> I should go read Malazan right now, first book is so slow though D:





Teren_Kanan said:


> Unaware of Malazan. My first question would be, does he create a Grey world with Grey characters? As in no real good or evil? Martin is very realistic in that sense and it's something i love about this writing.



IMO, don't waste your time with Malazan. It starts off very cool, with the second book being the best. The third book is, so far, the only book I've thrown in the trash. 

Third book introduces a trash character with the most annoying of all archetypes: the omnipotent fool who guides the world toward goodness. It ruins the book because it feels like the characters have lost some of their free will and are being guided by the author's hand. 

Erikson is not a very complex writer, he just steals stuff from history and repackages it as his own. The Bridgeburners are pretty obviously part of the Roman legions. When he starts lecturing about engineers being the backbone of the army, I roll my eyes like I'm reading the History Channel's shallow commentary. 

You want an author who writes as well as GRRM? Try James Clavell. His shit is so complex you'll end up wondering who is really moral and correct at the end of the book, without hope of truly finding an answer.


----------



## Taleran (Oct 12, 2009)

Interesting I find Malazan more enjoyable than ASoIaF just becaus I like Magic flowing in my fantasy worlds and if there is one thing not really in a series that is it

and I didn't find any single character in the 3rd book to be omnipotent at least by the end of it



> Erikson is not a very complex writer, he just steals stuff from history and repackages it as his own. The Bridgeburners are pretty obviously part of the Roman legions. When he starts lecturing about engineers being the backbone of the army, I roll my eyes like I'm reading the History Channel's shallow commentary.



Uh the man was trained as both a archaeologist and anthropologist so that stuff is too be expected.


----------



## Bathroom_Mop (Oct 12, 2009)

Hey, I want to start reading the books of A song of Ice and Fire. I briefly browsed through a few post to see if the series is completed. From the looks of it, its not. This next book that the author is going to release.....is it the final book or what? I don't want to start reading a story and wait years for each next publication. How many books in the series so far and how many books till the series is concluded? 

I like fantasy books with magic and shit. Eragon was a bit too simplistic and immature for me, but did have the type of story that entertained me somewhat, so I am looking for something similar


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## Taleran (Oct 12, 2009)

You are going to be wating

A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME


----------



## Moonshine (Oct 12, 2009)

I believe there are suppose to be seven books total, only four out so far. And we have been waiting about three years for book 5. So like the above poster said, it will be a very long time before the series is finished.


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## Taleran (Oct 12, 2009)

uhh correction

we are currently on book 3.5

Feast of Crows and ADWD is the same book cut into 2


----------



## Bathroom_Mop (Oct 12, 2009)

Hey thanks for the info. I guess its not worth getting into right now. I think I will wait a few years before I start reading it. Maybe I will read Malazan since a few of you were talking about it. Any other recommendations of fantasy books similar to ASoIaF and Eragon and that are finished or close to being finished


----------



## Nimander (Oct 12, 2009)

Malazan shits all over ASOIAF.

IMO of course.

*edit*  

And even though Malazan shits all over ASOIAF, Eragon is nowhere near the level of either of them. 

*assholish mood over*


----------



## martryn (Oct 12, 2009)

> Hey thanks for the info. I guess its not worth getting into right now. I think I will wait a few years before I start reading it. Maybe I will read Malazan since a few of you were talking about it. Any other recommendations of fantasy books similar to ASoIaF and Eragon and that are finished or close to being finished



Try the Wheel of Time.  There's a fuck ton of books in that series, the author is dead, and his replacement has three books to release to finish the series up.  I think he's going to release them one a year from what I've seen.  By the time you've read that far you should only have to wait for the last book to be released.  Plus they're making a movie of the first book, so you should read it before seeing the film so you can hate it like the rest of us likely will.


----------



## Freija (Oct 12, 2009)

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh, still no new updates... that fatty


----------



## The Imp (Oct 12, 2009)

Freija said:


> uuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh, still no new updates... that fatty



when was the last time he gave an update?


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Oct 12, 2009)

kurono76767 said:


> when was the last time he gave an update?





January 1, 2008 




Something isn't right, here. Gotta be his health or something. He wrote the first three books much faster. Supposedly when he wrote Feast 4 years ago, the next book was "half finished". No way a half finished book takes 4 years to complete.


----------



## The Imp (Oct 12, 2009)

Shinigami Perv said:


> January 1, 2008
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol @ people who are waiting for an update 

GRRM is just a lazy asshole. ADWD better be mind blowing.

I'll just pass the time with other books.


----------



## Freija (Nov 30, 2009)

Seriously, he doesn't hold the deadline and he can't even give us an update.


----------



## Dionysus (Nov 30, 2009)

On the news front:

-Attended HBO pilot shooting in Morocco.  Partied (Las Vegas-style apparently) with hot black women.

-Upon return to the US, ate at McDonalds and got the shits.  Sitting around watching TIVO'd NFL games.

Clearly, these are important times.  You are up-to-date and, no doubt, excited.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Nov 30, 2009)




----------



## Snowblind (Nov 30, 2009)

I've got no idea why so many people seem to like the Malazan series. I read Gardens of the Moon, and I thought it was downright crappy. As far as I could tell, ANY of Martin's books (not just ASOIAF) walks all over the first Malazan book. It's not just that I didn't like Malazan. It came across as legitimately crappy fiction. I'd probably have to read it again in order to go over the reasons in detail, however, so.....

Overall, the Malazan over-world didn't seem a tenth as developed as Martin's, and the Malazan characters came across as vapid and two-dimensional compared to Martin's. In addition, although the story behind ASOIAF may not be groundbreaking, the manner and methodology by which the story is told is simply outstanding. Malazan? Eh.

On topic: Martin's books are genius. As another poster has said, they've spolied almost all other fiction for me; nothing seems to compare. He's got soem damn fine books aside from his signature fantasy novels.


----------



## Nimander (Nov 30, 2009)

Snowblind said:


> I've got no idea why so many people seem to like the Malazan series. I read Gardens of the Moon, and I thought it was downright crappy. As far as I could tell, ANY of Martin's books (not just ASOIAF) walks all over the first Malazan book. It's not just that I didn't like Malazan. It came across as legitimately crappy fiction. I'd probably have to read it again in order to go over the reasons in detail, however, so.....
> 
> Overall, the Malazan over-world didn't seem a tenth as developed as Martin's, and the Malazan characters came across as vapid and two-dimensional compared to Martin's. In addition, although the story behind ASOIAF may not be groundbreaking, the manner and methodology by which the story is told is simply outstanding. Malazan? Eh.
> 
> On topic: Martin's books are genius. As another poster has said, they've spolied almost all other fiction for me; nothing seems to compare. He's got soem damn fine books aside from his signature fantasy novels.



While I respect your right to your own opinion, I disdain it nonetheless


----------



## The Imp (Nov 30, 2009)

Snowblind said:


> I've got no idea why so many people seem to like the Malazan series. I read Gardens of the Moon, and I thought it was downright crappy. As far as I could tell, ANY of Martin's books (not just ASOIAF) walks all over the first Malazan book. It's not just that I didn't like Malazan. It came across as legitimately crappy fiction. I'd probably have to read it again in order to go over the reasons in detail, however, so.....
> 
> Overall, the Malazan over-world didn't seem a tenth as developed as Martin's, and the Malazan characters came across as vapid and two-dimensional compared to Martin's. In addition, although the story behind ASOIAF may not be groundbreaking, the manner and methodology by which the story is told is simply outstanding. Malazan? Eh.
> 
> On topic: Martin's books are genius. As another poster has said, they've spolied almost all other fiction for me; nothing seems to compare. He's got soem damn fine books aside from his signature fantasy novels.



Erikson's world building and plot get better later on. Even surpassing ASoIaF in those aspects imo but the characters can't compare.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Nov 30, 2009)

Snowblind said:


> I've got no idea why so many people seem to like the Malazan series. I read Gardens of the Moon, and I thought it was downright crappy. As far as I could tell, ANY of Martin's books (not just ASOIAF) walks all over the first Malazan book. It's not just that I didn't like Malazan. It came across as legitimately crappy fiction. I'd probably have to read it again in order to go over the reasons in detail, however, so.....
> 
> Overall, the Malazan over-world didn't seem a tenth as developed as Martin's, and the Malazan characters came across as vapid and two-dimensional compared to Martin's. In addition, although the story behind ASOIAF may not be groundbreaking, the manner and methodology by which the story is told is simply outstanding. Malazan? Eh.
> 
> On topic: Martin's books are genius. As another poster has said, they've spolied almost all other fiction for me; nothing seems to compare. He's got soem damn fine books aside from his signature fantasy novels.



You're correct, Malazan is a second rate fantasy series which I wouldn't recommend to anyone without exhausting two dozen other books and series first.


----------



## Nimander (Nov 30, 2009)

Faugh.  While ASOIAF is a good series, it's also pretty forgettable.  I'm already pretty ambivalent on whether Martin ever decides to continue his series, while I can barely wait for the next Malazan release.  Like some have said, all Martin really has over Erikson is character building and development, and IMO Erikson isn't that far behind him in that regard when it comes to his most complex and involved characters.  And Erikson trumps Martin in just about every other regard as well.

But the caveat is there.  If you're not interested in a deeply involved story, you're not going to like Erikson.  It's just that simple.  Erikson's story structure can be ridiculously complex at times, which either makes or breaks the series for some readers.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Dec 7, 2009)

Ladies and Gentlemen, ADWD is officially finished and on its way to the printers for a release sometimes in Spring of 2010:


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Dec 7, 2009)

I would like to direct your attention to the nearest cliff. Jump of it.


----------



## Nimander (Dec 7, 2009)

*snorts*

I won't believe it until I see the book in these two hands.  And even then, I'm prepared to be disappointed.

All-in-all, no matter what his level of writing may be, this whole thing has made me lose respect for GRRM.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 7, 2009)

Rob` said:


> I would like to direct your attention to the nearest cliff. Jump of it.


----------



## Moonshine (Dec 7, 2009)

George will probably die of heart attack before the book is even close to being done. Damn him


----------



## KidTony (Dec 7, 2009)

Started with a game of thrones last night.


----------



## Spidey (Dec 9, 2009)

I finished feast a few months ago, and starving for more GRRM i picked up Fevre Dream and I just finished that. And it was probably the best fucking vampire story I ever read. Damn. I wish they'd make it into a film. 

And yes the wait for ADWD sucks ass, but really, I can wait. He's written (at least for me) probably the most engaging and just brilliant fantasy series I've had the pleasure of reading, and if I'm gonna continue to read it i can at least be patient. No need to insult the guy. As long as the complete story is told before he dies, I'm good.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah, I think everyone starts off in the "I can wait" group.  Some stay there, but many at leave move to the "GRRM has a shitty work ethic" group.


----------



## jkingler (Dec 9, 2009)

> i picked up Fevre Dream and I just finished that. And it was probably the best fucking vampire story I ever read. Damn. I wish they'd make it into a film.


Ditto'd.

It's up there, at least. Salem's Lot is fucking excellent. As are many other obvious (Lestat) and less obvious (insert your more-indie-vampire-title here) choices.


----------



## KidTony (Dec 12, 2009)

About three thirds into the first book, preety fucking awesome. Favorite character so far is by far the imp.


----------



## Suigetsu (Dec 12, 2009)

omg is a dance with dragons out yet?


----------



## The Imp (Dec 12, 2009)

KidTony said:


> About three thirds into the first book, preety fucking awesome. Favorite character so far is by far the imp.



one of the best characters although some of his chapters get quite repetitive in the later books.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Dec 13, 2009)

One thing I must criticise GRRM on:

His blog is dull

Joe Abercrombie, Patrick Rothfuss and Neil Gaiman all make huge and entertaining entries on clever things

GRRM bitches about football and pimps his stuff.



Spidey said:


> I finished feast a few months ago, and starving for more GRRM i picked up Fevre Dream and I just finished that. And it was probably the best fucking vampire story I ever read. Damn. I wish they'd make it into a film.
> 
> And yes the wait for ADWD sucks ass, but really, I can wait. He's written (at least for me) probably the most engaging and just brilliant fantasy series I've had the pleasure of reading, and if I'm gonna continue to read it i can at least be patient. No need to insult the guy. As long as the complete story is told before he dies, I'm good.



To everyone here

*Buy Dreamsongs* if you haven't already

It's a collection of most of his short stories and they're universally excellent.

Also each section begins with an auto-biography bit written by the man himself which are just ace.


----------



## martryn (Dec 15, 2009)

I had a dream last night that GRRM died.  Not a pleasant thing to wake up from.


----------



## Yulwei (Dec 15, 2009)

I read the first book in this series and about a quarter of the second one and whilst I like some of the characters it's just not sufficiently compelling. The fact that the last book might never be written doesn't really inspire me either. Glad that I loaned the books rather than buying them.


----------



## KidTony (Dec 17, 2009)

^ I had the opposite reaction. I just finished the first book and i thought it was amazing. I loved most of the characters and the story and can't wait to start on the second, which I'll do tonight.


----------



## Yulwei (Dec 17, 2009)

I liked the first book well enough but I just lost interest during the second one. The book just didn't seem very fantastic and I didn't even care who got the throne at the end of the day.


----------



## Snowblind (Dec 18, 2009)

Spidey said:


> I finished feast a few months ago, and starving for more GRRM i picked up Fevre Dream and I just finished that. And it was probably the best fucking vampire story I ever read. Damn. I wish they'd make it into a film.
> 
> And yes the wait for ADWD sucks ass, but really, I can wait. He's written (at least for me) probably the most engaging and just brilliant fantasy series I've had the pleasure of reading, and if I'm gonna continue to read it i can at least be patient. No need to insult the guy. As long as the complete story is told before he dies, I'm good.



Quoted. For. The. Truth.

Fevre Dream was really, really good. 

About a year ago, I picked up a collection of Martin's short stories. I can't remember the name of the book, but it had Sandkings, The Ice Dragon, Meathouse Man, and about a dozen other short stories in it. Does anyone know the book's name?

---

On topic, I've been speculating about where the storyline will be going from here. At the end of the most recent book, we learned that Cersei had sent her thugs up to the Wall, with the intention of usurping and killing Jon Snow. I think that they're going to succeed at the first part; I think that Jon is going to be removed as Lord Commander. Well, either that, or the Wall is defeated entirely by the Others. I seriously doubt that Jon will die, however.

After the Wall is overthrown, I think that Jon is going to leave Westeros, and meet up with Daenerys. He's probably the best candidate in the whole series for becoming a dragon-rider. In addition, I think that there's a very good chance that he's Raegar's son, and not Ned's. This would make Jon and Daenerys half-sibings. If this is the case, then he and Daenerys will definitely be meeting up at some point.

I'm also curious about what Tyrion is up to.


----------



## martryn (Dec 18, 2009)

Dragon-rider Tyrion, anyone?


----------



## Freija (Dec 18, 2009)

Dead before book is done?


Death by too much blood in his fatstream.


----------



## The Imp (Dec 18, 2009)

Snowblind said:


> I'm also curious about what Tyrion is up to.



i hope he isn't fucking whores for most of ADWD.


----------



## Nimander (Dec 25, 2009)

Isn't Jon's storyline due in the next book?  I'm looking forward to his plot probably the most since he's one of the few characters I seriously like.


----------



## Baks (Dec 29, 2009)

Suigetsu said:


> omg is a dance with dragons out yet?



Not yet.

But at least it should be better than A Feast of Crows, that book was terrible imo.

Ugh it had way too many viewpoints characters of annoying and lame characters like Cersei, Sam and Brienne who I personally couldn't give two hoots about.

I dunno why there no chapters about the more interesting characters like Bram, Dany, Tyrion and Jon in this book.  Imo they heck a lot more interseting than most of the lameass characters in A Feast of Crows.

The only redeeming thing about that book was Jaime's chapters since at least he is an interesting and badass character.


----------



## KidTony (Jan 8, 2010)

Finished 2, moving on to 3. I like book one better than the second, but this one was great too. I heard the third is very good. Oh, and i fucking hate theon greyjoy.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 12, 2010)

The longer this takes to come out, the less interest I have in it for when (if it ever) does come out.  'Tis sad that an author could inspire such disinterest in a fantasy series for me.


----------



## Felix (Jan 23, 2010)

You have probably all seen these images, but I'm really pumped for the TV adaptation:






Tyrion is looking Good...
Cersei is well... a bit different from the "HOTNESS" I imagined

Not sure if they are legit. But Tyrion is the correct cast actor so I presume the others are as well


----------



## Watchman (Jan 23, 2010)

Jaime looks a lot more rugged than I expected.


----------



## Alexandritee (Jan 23, 2010)

So I just finished the first book.. and I'm a little confused about whether I liked the book or not.


----------



## Felix (Jan 23, 2010)

Alexandritee said:


> So I just finished the first book.. and I'm a little confused about whether I liked the book or not.



If you want to read the second, yes you liked it


----------



## Nimander (Jan 24, 2010)

Eh, I can sympathize.  Sometimes it's like, "Do I want to read the second book?  Will it be more like the first, or will the author improve?"  

Sometimes, the author is *just* short of the level you enjoy, and you can either hope that the author improves as the series progresses because you don't want to be stuck reading a mediocre series.  

There's nothing more frustrating at times.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 25, 2010)

Felix said:


> You have probably all seen these images, but I'm really pumped for the TV adaptation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tyrion is perfect IMO and everybody knows dinklage is a great actor so its all good. 

Jaime is okay i suppose though not what i imagined. 

But Cersei - not hot enough and she doesn't look nearly crazy enough. Dear god, she looks _mischievous_. Can you believe that, the queen bitch of evil bitches looking _playful_.

Not impressed.


----------



## Dream Brother (Jan 25, 2010)

Tyrion is great. Jaime...I imagined him to be more of a pretty boy. Maybe it's just that particular shot, where he looks a bit dirty/scraggly. I expected someone who almost shined, a bit like this.

I quite like the Cersei! I always imagined her with that sort of mischievousness/slyness evident, rather than looking like some sort of crazy/evil Witch. We all know she's like that on the inside, but I always thought that the point of her character was that she always manipulated her appearance and the appearance of others to suit her own ends. For someone obsessed with appearance and deception, she's the last person I would expect to be openly wearing a crazy/malicious expression.


----------



## Fran (Jan 25, 2010)

Yeah, Tyrion will be brilliant! Although, I imagined a longer beard.
Cersei and Jaime, I was expecting to at least be a set of real-life twins - the novel said they looked a lot alike right?


----------



## Dream Brother (Jan 25, 2010)

I just heard that some people were hoping for Tricia Helfer to play Cersei...man, that was a great idea. She certainly wouldn't have anyone complaining about 'not hot enough!' and she's also shown that she can pull off that sort of seductress/softly powerful role really well.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 25, 2010)

Im still pissed that Titus Pullo from Rome isn't acting as Sandor Clegane.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 25, 2010)

They even got the "one green eye, one black one" for Tyrion down.

Gotta love Hollywood's attention to detail.

And I grudgingly agree that Cersei isn't as "hot" as my mental image of her was, but as always, I'm willing to give the actress a chance.  With how huge a following the series has, I seriously doubt that they're going to miscast anybody in this show.

Lastly, I agree that the guy who played Titus Pullo in Rome would make an awesome Hound.  Too bad we can't always get what we wish for.


----------



## Mori` (Jan 26, 2010)

Mattaru said:


> Cersei and Jaime, I was expecting to at least be a set of real-life twins - the novel said they looked a lot alike right?



That might have made the acting out of some scenes a bit awkward...

Jaime is too scruffy; should be a more clean cut kind of handsome.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 26, 2010)

Enjoy it while you can. It'll be cancelled after the first series.

ANd if it isn't, they'll make it faster than GRRM writes it which will also lead to it being cancelled


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 26, 2010)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Enjoy it while you can. It'll be cancelled after the first series.



Not nearly brutal enough. They will cut it mid way through season two just before the battle of the Blackwater.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 26, 2010)

Those russkies got mad photoshop skills.


----------



## Dream Brother (Jan 26, 2010)

Daaaaaayyyyyyymn.


----------



## Fran (Jan 26, 2010)

DAYYYYYM indeed.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jan 26, 2010)

Is that Sansa up there? Bitch.

Cersei, also a bitch, I like for a casting choice. Wouldn't have thought of Lena Headey. I tend to think natural blondes and the like. Jaime looks fine, but I agree with Dream Brother in that I was picturing more of a pretty boy. Isn't Tyrion uglier than the actor portraying him? Any other posters?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 26, 2010)

Welcome to the world of Hollywood Homely Fitz.


----------



## Sho (Jan 27, 2010)

Sho said:


> Didn't they say that Book 5 was coming out this year (judging from the authors note at the end of Feast for Crows)?  Hey, I'm glad there's not gonna be as much wait for it as for 4.
> 
> Anyways I really liked Feast for Crows despite there not being alot of the characters which I liked.  George R.R Martin is just a great storyteller since he makes any chapter exciting as the others, for whatever character.  Brienne's chapters were always interesting to read and I'm pretty interested to see how she'll do with that cliff hanger that happened.  Cersei is still a bitch though.  I was just laughing when she turned to run away from the priest guy.  Classic.
> 
> ...



Nearly 4 fucking years ago. lol

Hurry up you slow bastard!


----------



## Nimander (Jan 27, 2010)

Wow.  GRRM, you slow assed m-fer, you.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jan 27, 2010)

05-08-06 was when Sho made that post. That would be hilarious if it weren't so disappointing. This guy writes likes Renly traveled...shit I forgot what their land is called. I only know certain cities, like Winterfell, Storm's End...Maybe I should re-read the series to brush up on my memories.


----------



## The Imp (Jan 27, 2010)

I believe it was Westeros.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 27, 2010)

Westros mo-foes


----------



## Dionysus (Jan 27, 2010)

Are you people still going to buy this book?  Buy it in hardcover?  I'm considering a library read.  Hell, I'm used to reading on screens now.  Mayhap a little pilfer would do.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 27, 2010)

*snorts*

Like I'd waste a red dime on buying this book.  This is exactly why the library is my friend.


----------



## jkingler (Jan 27, 2010)

Think that the series doing well is more likely to motivate Martin to write faster so he can cash in more? 

Or do you think it will help him further buy into his philosophy of making more money for doing more nada?

I hope for the former but sorta expect the latter, based on the precedents we've been provided with.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 27, 2010)

From what I've heard, GRRM was doing extremely well before he decided to take his five-year hiatus.  If he'd stuck to his schedule, he'd be considered a much greater writer than he is.  Agree with it or not, the gap between books has lowered him in the eyes of a lot of fans, especially with no particular reason for the break being given.


----------



## West Egg (Jan 27, 2010)

Any significant progress on the Dance yet?


----------



## keiiya (Jan 27, 2010)

Dream Brother said:
			
		

> Tyrion is great. Jaime...I imagined him to be more of a pretty boy. Maybe it's just that particular shot, where he looks a bit dirty/scraggly.


You mean like this:

I am hoping when he is cleaned up a bit, he will look more like what I imagined him to be like as well. :F

I think my two favourite pictures so far are:

*Spoiler*: __ 








I was hoping Drogo would be a little bit more rough around the edges. I really can't wait to to see them at it.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 27, 2010)

2010 Hitlist  

A Wise Man's Fear by Patrick Rothfuss *keeps fingers crossed*
Towers of Midnight by Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson, Nov. 2010
*A Dance with Dragons by George R. R. Martin, Sept. 27, 2010*
Changes by Jim Butcher, April 2010
Dust of Dreams by Steven Erikson, Jan. 26, 2010


----------



## Nimander (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm curious as to how even the infamous HBO will pull off the obvious pedophilia between Drogo and Daenerys.  

Should be interesting to see how they manage to spin that.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 28, 2010)

From this great post. 

*How are HBO addressing the young ages of some of the characters with regards to sex and violence?*

Almost all of the characters, children or adult, are being aged up by at least a few years. Robb and Jon are 17 rather than 14, Daenerys is 15 rather than 13 and so on (all three actors are 23 in real life). Sean Bean, who plays Ned Stark, is fifteen years older than Ned in the books, whilst Mark Addy is ten years older than Robert Baratheon as described in the books. Jennifer Ehle and Lena Headey are more like 5-7 years older than in the books. These age increases are partly down to legal requirements for the amount of time the younger actors can spend on set and their involvement in sexually explicit scenes, and also down to storytelling considerations: George R.R. Martin has also said that in retrospect he should have made the characters a few years older at the start of the series, and may have advised the TV producers to do so for the series.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 28, 2010)

That explanation satisfies the requirements of my question.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 28, 2010)

You know i might be the only one on this board who thinks so but im glad GRRM is taking his sweet time about things. I would much rather DwD was delayed four years than it coming out, on time, but shit. Tolkien also took fucking ages to write just a trillogy and he never even finished his greatest work.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 28, 2010)

*snorts*

It could come out later on this year and still be shit regardless of the time he spent on it.  You'll very rarely see an author rushed to make a sequel to a book unless they choose to rush themselves and end up doing a sloppy job because of that.  Authors are given a lot of leeway in how they operate.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jan 28, 2010)

Nimander said:


> *snorts*
> It could come out later on this year and still be shit regardless of the time he spent on it.



If that's the case then i would do the mother of all facepalms. 

But fuck it, there are plenty of great fantasies out there. In the words of the 40yo Virgin, you guys are putting the pussy on a pedestal, your bound to be disappointed.


----------



## Segan (Feb 6, 2010)

I'm in the middle of "A Storm of Swords"...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Oh God, can Martin be so cruel? 

Robb's been killed off, Catelyn's been killed off, Arya's been killed off (the Hound be damned), in the same day no less. Only four of nine Starks remain as of now (including Jon Snow).

If Snow is killed off too, I will spit fire and curse the great George R.R. Martin!


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 6, 2010)

At the moment I'm looking forward to the next Kingkiller book more.



Nimander said:


> *snorts*
> 
> It could come out later on this year and still be shit regardless of the time he spent on it.  You'll very rarely see an author rushed to make a sequel to a book unless they choose to rush themselves and end up doing a sloppy job because of that.  Authors are given a lot of leeway in how they operate.



R.Scott Bakker said he spent years writing the first book of his trilogy and only had one year to write the second but I found the second much better than the first.

Likewise, I loved AFFC but lots of people didn't like it, feeling GRRM had let the story spread too much and needed some editorial whipping.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 6, 2010)

Sup guys, GRRM still being fat?


----------



## isanon (Feb 12, 2010)

im gonna download adwd  

martin's greedy fat ass can suck a donkey cock


----------



## Magus (Feb 16, 2010)

The only reason I still remember Mr. Martin is because of this damnable thread.


----------



## Pan-on (Feb 17, 2010)

anyone seen this?


----------



## Dream Brother (Feb 17, 2010)

> But he failed to calm some readers down. "Where's the book, Mr Martin, where's the book?  Here in Russia we are waiting, and waiting, and waiting," wrote one of the more eager fans.



 **


----------



## Nimander (Feb 17, 2010)

>article about GRRM
>Doesn't say ADWD is finished

I want my three minutes back.


----------



## Pan-on (Feb 17, 2010)

Nimander said:


> >article about GRRM
> >Doesn't say ADWD is finished
> 
> I want my three minutes back.



No, they are mine now


----------



## The Imp (Feb 17, 2010)

Nothing really new that I haven't seen on his blog or in this thread but pretty funny none the less.

Out of curiosity who else reads his blog from time to time?


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 17, 2010)

Anon said:


> anyone seen this?



VOTE FOR THEM DAMMIT!


----------



## Pan-on (Feb 17, 2010)

Lord Yu said:


> VOTE FOR THEM DAMMIT!



Hell no, the conservatives?

also he has the same last name as me and I know what it means, so I don't trust him


----------



## Watchman (Feb 18, 2010)

The David Cameron ad cracked me up.


----------



## Segan (Feb 18, 2010)

I hope, Cersei dies a horrible death. She's just awful.

Hopefully "A Dance with Dragons" will be better paced and have much more action than "A Feast for Crows".


----------



## Aruarian (Feb 21, 2010)

Hell, it's not like the book will ever live up to everything.


----------



## Nimander (Feb 25, 2010)

Hangat?r said:


> Hell, it's not like the book will ever live up to everything.



Another unintended consequence of Martin putting off the book so long.  He could write a fucking masterpiece unequaled in the history of the world across all civilizations that ever were, are and ever will be, and a percentage of fans will still bash it.

You know I'm telling the truth with this one...


----------



## KidTony (Mar 3, 2010)

haven't really started on ASoS after finishing ACoK. Just thought if i gave it some times a ADwD would be out... but guess not. Finishing the book im reading now i'll dive back into this series.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 18, 2010)

Sorry for the double post.

About half way through aSoS and i must say...this book is amazing, and i'm not even close to epic ending i keep hearing about (please no spoilers)

The first two were good books. They could have been great if the hype i had for them wasn't so impossible to meet, but this one...damn, it's just damn good. Martin hit it out of the park.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Mar 18, 2010)

Anon said:


> anyone seen this?



luls, GRRM is so important he gets articles about him having kinda almost finished being close to finishing a book.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 22, 2010)

just finished reading the red wedding.....HOLY SHIT  

Mind =blown


----------



## escamoh (Mar 25, 2010)

i'm almost done with aSoS and


*Spoiler*: __ 



i'm so happy catelyn is dead!! i hated that woman. but it was kind of sad how she died, and poor lil robby


----------



## Segan (Mar 25, 2010)

escamoh said:


> i'm almost done with aSoS and
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Edit...duh, apparently my post was threatening to spoil you.

Anyway, Catelyn was never much of a likeable character. And somehow, of the women there aren't any truly interesting characters. Well, maybe a certain Dornishwoman...
Daenerys however seems to have some great potential.

Didn't really care about Robb that much, but I will be mad if Martin ever kills of one of Stark's remaining children. He can have Rickon if he likes, but Jon Snow, Arya and Bran better live on.

Sansa, though, is somewhat difficult for me to decide, whether I appreciate her or not.


----------



## The Imp (Mar 25, 2010)

your post gives it away

you should delete/edit/spoiler tag it if you dont want to spoil him


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 26, 2010)

I haven't a clue why you'd hate Catelyn. I really liked her. :S Same with Robb. 

As for Sansa being killed off or not, I despised her for quite some time. All the abuse from Joffrey seemed to have made her grow up, but the way she blindly trusted in the Tyrells and wound up married to Tyrion just annoyed me. If it wasn't for her, Ned would still be alive - and although she's gotten cleverer since those days, she's still pretty retarded.

Arya is one of my favourite characters, but you have to say, she could have ended the war or at least half won it for Robb if she'd judiciously used the three deaths Jaqen promised her, instead of wasting them on Chiswyck, Weeze, and...someone else, don't remember who, but no-one important. If she'd said Tywin, the rest would have been history.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Mar 26, 2010)

Guys, ADWD is NOT done yet. But GRRM has posted some pretty funny excerpts how he thinks Jaime with do in  (just click on Jaimes name) cages matches. The first one is with Hermione Granger and the second with Cuthulu.  Worth reading i reckon.


----------



## Dionysus (Mar 26, 2010)




----------



## KidTony (Mar 26, 2010)

Just finished it. All i got to say is...WOW. I thought the first two books were very good, but not as good as the hype led me to believe. But A Storm of Swords not only met my expectations for this series, but shattered them. What an amazing book. Epic moment after epic moment.  Moments that break your heart, moments that fuck with your mind, moments that make you laugh out loud. An amazing, amazing book.


----------



## Nae'blis (Mar 26, 2010)

escamoh said:


> i'm almost done with aSoS and
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I never liked her, I never really liked most of house Stark for that matter aside from Jon/Arya. I keep on waiting for Sansa to be raped/murdered.


----------



## Dionysus (Mar 26, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Just finished it. All i got to say is...WOW. I thought the first two books were very good, but not as good as the hype led me to believe. But A Storm of Swords not only met my expectations for this series, but shattered them. What an amazing book. Epic moment after epic moment.  Moments that break your heart, moments that fuck with your mind, moments that make you laugh out loud. An amazing, amazing book.


Do yourself a favour and wait till ADWD is out before continuing.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 27, 2010)

Nah, can't do that, starting 'feast' tonight, though im braced for a disappointment since everyone keeps saying feast isn't as good as the other three. Though it can't be too bad, i doubt Martin has written a bad paragraph in his life. 

I've been told that the focus shifts to new characters, and i don't think I'll mind that too much. I hope they focus on House Martell for a bit, i want to read more about the dornishmen and what's going on there.


----------



## The Imp (Mar 27, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Nah, can't do that, starting 'feast' tonight, though im braced for a disappointment since everyone keeps saying feast isn't as good as the other three. Though it can't be too bad, i doubt Martin has written a bad paragraph in his life.
> 
> I've been told that the focus shifts to new characters, and i don't think I'll mind that too much. I hope they focus on House Martell for a bit, i want to read more about the dornishmen and what's going on there.



There are a handful of chapters focusing on Dorne although I found most of them boring. Out of the new character POV's the ones focusing on the Greyjoy's interested me the most.


----------



## Segan (Mar 27, 2010)

Well, I don't know if it's a bad sign or not, but every time the POV shifted to Cersei Lannister I wished Martin would kill her off already.

What the hell did Jaime mean Cersei had the wits but not the patience? She has neither, only entirely baseless preconceived notions (well, at least she was right about Margaery's
*Spoiler*: __ 



 loss of virginity, but even there, she still did made insane blunders.)




Oh yeah, DO NOT READ THE SPOILER if you haven't finished FotC.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Mar 27, 2010)

Segan said:


> What the hell did Jaime mean Cersei had the wits but not the patience? She has neither, only entirely baseless preconceived notions (well, at least she was right about Margaery's
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



She probably isn't. You can "lose" it just by riding a horse normally, which Margaery is fond of doing. 

Besides, Cersei no longer has the power to challenge the most powerful of all the seven houses.


----------



## Segan (Mar 27, 2010)

What, by riding? That's the first time I heard of such a thing...


----------



## KidTony (Mar 27, 2010)

Wow Segan, you're awfully lax with the spoilers man. Even something as small as revealing Cersei is going to get a pov is a spoiler for someone who hasn't read the book.

edit: and BTW, WTF happened to Roy Dotrice? And who the hell is this John Lee guy? I want dotrice back dammit.


----------



## escamoh (Mar 27, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> I never liked her, I never really liked most of house Stark for that matter aside from Jon/Arya. I keep on waiting for Sansa to be raped/murdered.



jon and arya definitely my favorite stark characters. sansa is as bad as catelyn imo, she makes the worst choices again and again and again it's a miracle she's still alive

cersei is the worst though, it's hilarious how paranoid she is over tyrion :rofl

hopefully rickon will get a POV role in the future, he shows a lot of promise


----------



## Segan (Mar 28, 2010)

Rickon is a little too young...and I'm more interesten in what will happen to Bran.


----------



## Nimander (Mar 28, 2010)

I laugh out loud at all the Sansa haters, cause it's obvious Martin is shaping her to be a very, very fucking important character near the end of the series.  She's gotten development like no other except Jon and Arya have in this series, though I may be missing a few names from sheer misrememberance.  And the fact that Sansa's development isn't done yet, while she's still ascending the social ladder of that world, lends more proof to my theory I think.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 28, 2010)

Nimander said:


> She's gotten development like no other except Jon and Arya have in this series



Daenerys, Jaime, Robb, Bran, etc.

Possibly Brienne as well.


----------



## Segan (Mar 28, 2010)

Nimander said:


> I laugh out loud at all the Sansa haters, cause it's obvious Martin is shaping her to be a very, very fucking important character near the end of the series.  She's gotten development like no other except Jon and Arya have in this series, though I may be missing a few names from sheer misrememberance.  And the fact that Sansa's development isn't done yet, while she's still ascending the social ladder of that world, lends more proof to my theory I think.


I don't really care, I'm still no fan of hers.


----------



## Watchman (Mar 28, 2010)

escamoh said:


> jon and arya definitely my favorite stark characters. sansa is as bad as catelyn imo, she makes the worst choices again and again and again it's a miracle she's still alive
> 
> cersei is the worst though, it's hilarious how paranoid she is over tyrion :rofl
> 
> hopefully rickon will get a POV role in the future, he shows a lot of promise



She's fucking 12 years old and caught in the middle of a political war where she's a major prize. What choices do you _expect_ her to make that don't blow up in her face when Littlefinger, the Lannisters, Varys etc. are all using her as a pawn?


----------



## Dionysus (Mar 28, 2010)

Segan said:


> What, by riding? That's the first time I heard of such a thing...


Viginity established based on the presence of the hymen.  The hymen can break through physical activities like horseback riding, masturbation, a fall, etc.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 28, 2010)

Is it just me or is littlefinger fucking awesome?


----------



## jkingler (Mar 28, 2010)

Littlefinger is a little bit like a bigger Tyrion. I hope he gets lots of POV chapters in coming books, should they ever be published.


----------



## masamune1 (Mar 31, 2010)

It seems that Martin has finished.



> After a trying 5 year wait, fans of GRR Martin's epic fantasy series _A Song of Ice and Fire_ can listen to the news that they have been wanting to hear: _A Dance With Dragons_, the long awaited 5th novel in the series, is finally finished.
> 
> Originally planned for a late 2006 release, the book has undergone repeated delays and rewrites, as well as several missed deadlines. The book was intended to be a part of his 2005 release _A Feast for Crows_, but the sheer scale of what he was writing forced Martin to split the books in two. The excerpts from _Feast_ were then rewritten as _ADwD_ took it's own direction, which has been cited as one reason for the delay.
> 
> ...



far worse covers

And here's a link to his site.

this


----------



## KidTony (Apr 1, 2010)

You know, i almost neg'd you.


----------



## Aruarian (Apr 1, 2010)

Wee, gay ass April Fools.


----------



## Grrblt (Apr 1, 2010)

masamune1 said:


> It seems that Martin has finished.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fortunately I was reminded about april fools just a minute before I read this.


----------



## masamune1 (Apr 1, 2010)

It's sad, though- I was going to this same thing last year.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 1, 2010)

BTW guys, if you listen to the audiobook, then you know the AMAZING, AMAZING work that the narrator of the first three installments, Roy Dotrice, does.  He was replaced in the fourth book by John Lee for what appears where scheduling conflicts. John Lee, a gifted narrator he may be, is no Roy Dotrice.



If you wouldn't mind, please take a few minutes of your time and sign this petition. For continuity's sake at least, but if you haven't heard Dotrice, i suggest if you ever wish to re-read ASoIsF again, you try the audio-book version, it is fantastic.


----------



## martryn (Apr 2, 2010)

I prefer to read the real thing.  Audiobooks are often abridged.  Most of the time, actually.


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 2, 2010)

martryn said:


> Audiobooks are often abridged.  Most of the time, actually.


Not for fantasy.


----------



## martryn (Apr 2, 2010)

> Not for fantasy.



If you say so.  I'd still rather read the actual book, especially with this series.  Too many times I'd have to stop and either look at the maps or the charts in the back of the book to figure out who is related to whom and where are they.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 2, 2010)

Fantasy books are usually never abridged, and Roy dotrice is so talented that its worth paying it a look.


----------



## escamoh (Apr 5, 2010)

Watchman said:


> She's fucking 12 years old and caught in the middle of a political war where she's a major prize. What choices do you _expect_ her to make that don't blow up in her face when Littlefinger, the Lannisters, Varys etc. are all using her as a pawn?


obviously all her choices aren't her own fault but you can't deny the fact that she is a moron, especially in the first book. arya is two years younger and has much more sense than sansa

besides she's ALMOST A WOMAN GROWN


----------



## martryn (Apr 5, 2010)

> obviously all her choices aren't her own fault but you can't deny the fact that she is a moron, especially in the first book. arya is two years younger and has much more sense than sansa



Arya actually pisses me off a little bit in the later books.  She's gotten a little too big for her britches.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 13, 2010)

Finished with book four. Some of you were right, it wasn't as good as the other three, though still by no means bad. Just felt like it was half of a book than a full one, and i wish more POVs had been dedicated to some of the newly introduced characters like Asha and Arrianne, and some more given to Sam and Jaime rather than wasted on Brienne and Cerseri. Cerseri is such an unlikable character. I though she would have redeeming qualities like Jaime but she doesn't, just wished she would have died. Still have a feeling Jaime will go after Cersei and they're going to die together. 

Can't wait for book five, I need Jon and Tyrian back in the story, danny too to an extent. 

Anyways, just started Gardens of the Moon.


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 13, 2010)

I hope not, I started liking Jaime's character once he finally got away from Cersei.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 13, 2010)

Jaime turned from some evil asshole into one of my favorite characters in the series.

So far its

-Tyrian (easily my fav character, second fav POV to jon)

-Jon (best POV in the series, all his chapters are great and the stuff going on at the wall is always interesting)

-Jaime (I love his POVs)

-Danny (Some boring chapters, but some really great ones--when she claimed Astapor with the unsullied comes to mind, fucking epic)

-Sam (loved his character from the start. Awesome POV, was really glad to see it introduced in Storm)



Least favs are

-Cersei (stupid bitch with zero redeeming qualities, die already you whore)

-Brianne (not the character, just her POV chapters, sort of boring until the end of feast)

-Sansa (though she's really grown on me after King's Landing, i actually enjoyed her POVs in feast)

The others:

I was sort of spoiled to Ned's fate so i never grew attached to his character, though i generally enjoyed his POVs in the first book, just not as much as Tyrian or Jon.

I also seem to be one of the few people who actually liked Catelyn's Povs. I like the the awesome characterization that Martin showcased with her, actually making me feel her grief.

Always been partial to Arya, liked her in throne, but didn't care for her in the next two,  i liked her POVs in feast a lot though.

Bran's POV is one of the most promising in the series. Can't wait for more.

Davos i've liked from the start. Not great chapters, but decent.

Theon only had a couple of POVs but they were decent, first we ever saw of the iron islands.

Would love to see more from:

-Asha
-Arianne

Don't really care about

-Victarion
-The Damphir
-Hotah

I heard that there will be a few additional POVs in Dance. Quentin Martell and Mellisandre, can't wait for either. Also heard it was confirmed that Theon would be making a comeback, can't wait for that either.

POVs I'd like to see in Dance.

-Tyrian
-Jon
-Danny
-Bran

^These four are a must, then

-Sam (would love to see some POVs about him forging his chain at the citadel)
-Jaime (great all around character)
-Someone from Dorne, preferably Arriane
-Someone from at the iron islands, preferably Asha

Then Theon, Quentyn, Mellisadre, Arya, Davos, and Sansa to round everything off.

Though likely that is too many. I think most likely from dance of those i mentioned there won't be any Jaime or Sam, and maybe even Arya and Sansa since their were all in feast.


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 14, 2010)

Theon's return to the Iron Islands  is amongst the few of my favourite POV sections in the entire series. Almost rivals some of Tyrion's.


----------



## Segan (Apr 14, 2010)

Bah, Arya is awesome. She can't help but think of everyone and everything to be stupid. Because....well, because she's right, isn't she?

Other than that, I wanna read more of Jon, Bran, Tyrion and Danny. Jaime and Brienne as well. And someone put Catelyn on fire, please, she's only going to make things worse anyway.


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 14, 2010)

they killed her and mutilated her body but the author had the audacity to bring her back to plague us with her mediocrity.


----------



## Nimander (Apr 14, 2010)

^That's probably one of the things I'm looking forward to the most in the HBO series, if for nothing more than the "ick" factor that'll come with it.


----------



## Lord Yu (May 1, 2010)

I JUST MET THE ILLUSTRATOR OF THE COMIC!


----------



## Blackfish (May 30, 2010)

Re-reading _A Game of Thrones_ (actually listening to it on audiobook) again. I'm around the part where Bran wakes up. I have to say listening to someone (Roy Dotrice) read it is way more immersive than just reading it.

Roy Dotrice is very good as Robert and Tyrion, but not very good at someone young like Jon. At this point in the story I'm used to him though.


----------



## KidTony (May 31, 2010)

i love roy dotrice. I RAGED when they didn't have him for book four, they used John Lee because of a scheduling conflict. RAGED i tell you


----------



## Pineapples (Jun 14, 2010)

Did anyone else see the GoT teaser on HBO? (Damn, I'm super excited for 2011 pek)


----------



## martryn (Jun 14, 2010)

My roommates paused and drug me into the room to show me.  I wanted to watch it a second time in slow motion, but couldn't convince them.  I'm super excited as well, and I think I'll keep HBO for the sole purpose of watching this show.


----------



## Felix (Jun 14, 2010)

I came buckets
Is that Boromir as Edward Stark?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 14, 2010)

Sean Bean, yes


----------



## KidTony (Jun 14, 2010)

Yeah, sean bean is ed stark which is fucking awesome.


----------



## Nakor (Jun 14, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Yeah, sean bean is ed stark which is fucking awesome.



I wish he was another character, any character


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 14, 2010)

Nakor said:


> I wish he was another character, any character



Sansa?


----------



## Nakor (Jun 14, 2010)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Sansa?



If it means he will be in more of the movie....


----------



## KidTony (Jun 14, 2010)

^ Not a movie bro.


----------



## Nakor (Jun 14, 2010)

tv series...same difference.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 15, 2010)

Felix said:


> Is that Boromir as Edward Stark?



 I just, can't see it. badass Odysseus/ Boromir acting as mild mannered Ed Stark,


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 15, 2010)

It's not going to be renewed for a second series guys.


----------



## Spartacus (Jun 15, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> I just, can't see it. badass Odysseus/ Boromir acting as mild mannered Ed Stark,



If any one actor was more fit for this role it's Sean Bean, if you've watched him in any other roles than Odysseus or Boromir, you'll know he can pull mild-mannered of just perfectly.

And I never got the impression that Ned was mild mannered, on the outside perhaps, but men like that often has a storm brewing underneath, and Sean Bean can tap into that quite proficiently.

Though he's often played villanious roles, I recommend you watch him in "The Island" or "Equilibrium", the role in equilibrium is a short one though.

I think he's perfect, can't imagine anyone else to play the role


----------



## KidTony (Jun 15, 2010)

The Pink Ninja said:


> It's not going to be renewed for a second series guys.



wait what?? Is this official? What if it does good? Source...WTF this sucks.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 15, 2010)

KidTony said:


> wait what?? Is this official? What if it does good? Source...WTF this sucks.



It's not going to be official, but shows with a small budget that appealed to a wider audience than this have been cancelled.


----------



## Felix (Jun 15, 2010)

The Pink Ninja said:


> It's not going to be official, but shows with a small budget that appealed to a wider audience than this have been cancelled.



Sure let's talk speculation


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 15, 2010)

You heard it here first.

I suppose maybe maybe they might make it to a second season but that's it.

Not that it matters: They'll be making the frickin things faster than GRRM writes books


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 15, 2010)

Wow.  You should work for HBO.  It would save them some serious cash to have a guru like you.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jun 15, 2010)

I know right?

Granted, the fact it is HBO does raise my hopes somewhat...


----------



## Freija (Jun 15, 2010)

öbö asdådlasldkasjasd AWESOME


----------



## KidTony (Jun 16, 2010)

If it does good it should be renewed. There's no point to having ASOIAF TV show if they don't do a season on the storm of swords, arguably one of the best fantasy books ever.


----------



## martryn (Jun 16, 2010)

> If it does good it should be renewed. There's no point to having ASOIAF TV show if they don't do a season on the storm of swords, arguably one of the best fantasy books ever.



Well, despite how good a third season would be, if the second season doesn't pull any viewers, there won't be a third.  HBO has trouble keeping these big cost series after a couple of seasons.  Despite the ratings.


----------



## KidTony (Jun 16, 2010)

I would suspect they have an edge though. Already a pretty decent audience established.Some of these shows on HBO or showtime like the Tudors etc started from scratch.


----------



## Nightfall (Jun 17, 2010)

Small preview of Jaime Lannister as well...

Link removed


----------



## masamune1 (Jun 17, 2010)

That's even crapper than what I did.


----------



## KidTony (Jun 17, 2010)

Nightfall said:


> Small preview of Jaime Lannister as well...
> 
> Link removed



oh lol!!!!


----------



## Blackfish (Jun 18, 2010)

The teaser was too brief to get any concrete impressions... but I'm still super excited that there's even a teaser. Too bad we have to wait another year, but I suppose waiting a year is nothing for us ASOIAF fans.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 18, 2010)

Hopefully the book's out by then as well.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jun 18, 2010)

Global disarmament is more imminent than the next book.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 18, 2010)

He's already past the 1300 page mark. I think it's safe to assume the book might be out by early-mid 2011 unless he decides to scrap hundreds of pages.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 26, 2010)

GRRM's Blog said:
			
		

> Auditions continue in Dublin, Belfast, and London for a whole bunch of parts, both major and minor, on HBO's GAME OF THRONES.
> 
> Sometimes it is a very hard job.
> 
> ...



                   .


----------



## Nakor (Jun 27, 2010)

^  makes me think he's just a disgusting old pervert.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 28, 2010)

You've read his books, you know what happened to Daenerys. Of course he fucking is.

Hell the first thing you'd think if you didn't know him by face and you saw that pic on the news is 'paedophile'.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 1, 2010)

Finished reading A feast for crows, having delayed it for awhile in hopes of A Dance with Dragons, would come out. But I was tired of waiting...

I had no problem with most of the characters, except the Ironmen and Greyjoys. All of them are so terribly dull, with the exception of Crow's eye(Euron Greyjoy) who seems promising, but he doesn't have a POV so..-_-

Definitely not worth a POV in the books imo.... At least something happened in Dorne...


----------



## Charade You Are (Jul 2, 2010)

I find this blog entry to be a bit interesting (some spoilers for ADWD):



Also, later in the comments, he confirmed that Cersei, as of now, is a POV in the book  Though it will be interesting to see where her situation goes...


----------



## Blackfish (Jul 3, 2010)

I'm not really bothered that aDwD is going to be shorter than aSoS, it's not like the latter isn't a huge doorstopper already. And more material shuffled to _The Winds of Winter_ also means a shorter wait till it comes out.

Not really new news, but the best GOT news lately has got to be Roy Dotrice as Grand Maester Pycelle. Kinda weird for me when he reads Pycelle in the auidobook now, especially that scene where Tyrion shaves off Pycelle's beard. But still pretty awesome that Dotrice is in the show. Can't wait to see him on-screen.


----------



## Pineapples (Jul 3, 2010)

The Morning Star said:


> Also, later in the comments, he confirmed that *Cersei*, as of now, is a POV in the book  Though it will be interesting to see where her situation goes...



Really? I'm kind curious as to how that's gonna work out (likely amusing, but with crazy lady anything can happen).


----------



## KidTony (Jul 5, 2010)

Blackfish said:


> I'm not really bothered that aDwD is going to be shorter than aSoS, it's not like the latter isn't a huge doorstopper already. And more material shuffled to _The Winds of Winter_ also means a shorter wait till it comes out.
> 
> Not really new news, but the best GOT news lately has got to be Roy Dotrice as Grand Maester Pycelle. Kinda weird for me when he reads Pycelle in the auidobook now, especially that scene where Tyrion shaves off Pycelle's beard. But still pretty awesome that Dotrice is in the show. Can't wait to see him on-screen.



I just want fucking roy dotrice to do the audio book for ADWD. and then go back and re-do AFFC, that john  lee one was awful.


----------



## RealaMoreno (Jul 5, 2010)

Not gonna lie, thought this had something to do with Robert Frost.


----------



## Charade You Are (Jul 5, 2010)

I have seen people on other forums mention that poem in reference to the series.  I swear while reading the books (I think aSoS) that I once saw a reference to Robert Frost. Cant seem to remember it though...Martin puts alot of little things in these books.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 5, 2010)

Hangat?r said:


> You've read his books, you know what happened to Daenerys. Of course he fucking is.
> 
> Hell the first thing you'd think if you didn't know him by face and you saw that pic on the news is 'paedophile'.



There's so much truth in this post that it hurts (when I laugh).


----------



## KidTony (Jul 5, 2010)

The Morning Star said:


> I have seen people on other forums mention that poem in reference to the series.  I swear while reading the books (I think aSoS) that I once saw a reference to Robert Frost. Cant seem to remember it though...Martin puts alot of little things in these books.



yeah, like when he gave robert jordan a shout-out by giving one of his character's name jordan's real name or something like that.


----------



## Charade You Are (Jul 6, 2010)

KidTony said:


> yeah, like when he gave robert jordan a shout-out by giving one of his character's name jordan's real name or something like that.



Yeah, its the second one of these two:


*Spoiler*: __ 



(*Ranfik Saïfi*) 1.) House Jordayne of the Tor: A nod to Robert Jordan, who is published by Tor. The arms of the house include a quill, referring to his writing. The lord of the House is Lord Trebor, whose name when reversed reveals "Robert".


2.) Archmaester Rigney: An archmaester who wrote time is a wheel. This is a reference to Robert Jordan and his Wheel of Time series. Jordan's real name is James Rigney.




Found them on the References and Homages thread on westeros

Edit: Some promising news.  GRRM has reached about 1400 manuscript pages.  Considering that he seemed certain that the book would not reach the length of aSOS (1521 manuscript pages) in one of his recent blogs, I doubt he will go past 1500.


----------



## Blackfish (Jul 23, 2010)

Still, glad that he's not completely out.


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 28, 2010)

So HBO started filming the series the day before yesterday.

Can't flipping wait.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 31, 2010)

I uncovered a great archeological find last week. A small personal library that appears to have been buried by a mudslide, or something similar.  I have been analysing various bits of books, most of which have succumbed to the rot of time. They speak of ages long past, and in a manner that intertwines fantasy and reality. Mythology and history fused as only they can with time.

One set of books in particular, Ye Songe of Ice and Fyre is of particular importance. There appears to be four thick tomes in this story. I've had my assistants carefully read and scan what they can. The odd thing is, each one of them seems to drop in a moody despondence after finishing the fourth. I've asked what the issue is, and really only get one response: "it's not finished; winter is never coming."

I just have to wonder if this is truly the reason for the demise of the ancient civilisation whose documents I now pore over.


----------



## Felix (Aug 1, 2010)

Mashed Potato said:


> I uncovered a great archeological find last week. A small personal library that appears to have been buried by a mudslide, or something similar.  I have been analysing various bits of books, most of which have succumbed to the rot of time. They speak of ages long past, and in a manner that intertwines fantasy and reality. Mythology and history fused as only they can with time.
> 
> One set of books in particular, Ye Songe of Ice and Fyre is of particular importance. There appears to be four thick tomes in this story. I've had my assistants carefully read and scan what they can. The odd thing is, each one of them seems to drop in a moody despondence after finishing the fourth. I've asked what the issue is, and really only get one response: "it's not finished; winter is never coming."
> 
> I just have to wonder if this is truly the reason for the demise of the ancient civilisation whose documents I now pore over.



Riveting tale old chap


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm re-reading (on Steel And Snow) and all the little sub plots make a lot more sense when you constantly flip to the back pages to see who is who.


----------



## abcd (Aug 12, 2010)

I starte reading this series last week... going to finish the second book ..... My friend just scared me that the series will probably not be over  .... anyone have an idea about the release of the next book ?? ( ofcourse i have been googling and finding info on his website... but still i just want to know how this community feels)


Edit: Also someone suggest a good fantasy like this one i am afraid i will finish the books by this week


----------



## The Imp (Aug 12, 2010)

If the HBO show does get to a fourth season and ADwD is out by then do you think it would be better to merge the events from both books to make the timeline move smoother or do you think it would be better the way it is in the books? 

Of course there would be the problem of having double the content but you could lengthen the season or split it in half the traditional way rather than by POV. Your thoughts?


----------



## Darth (Aug 14, 2010)

Three hundred pages through "A Clash of Kings"

So far it's awesome! 

Tyrion, Varys, Eddard Stark, and Jon Snow are my favorite characters so far. Arya's not too bad for a female lead either. Neither is Catelyn.


----------



## Felix (Aug 14, 2010)

Arya is pretty fucking awesome
And Sansa will turn into a pretty good POV later on


----------



## Nimander (Aug 15, 2010)

Yeah, Arya is, IMO, one of the FEW engaging POVs in the series.  Bran is as well, simply because his character has so much potential and I'm waiting to see what's gonna be done with him.  Tyrion for his snarkniness is also on my short list, and...that's probably it.  I can't think of any other POVs that really stand out to me in the series.


----------



## Felix (Aug 15, 2010)

Daenarrys POV and Jaime's are also very good since with Danny we get to see what the hell is going on in the other side of the world, and the whole dragon thing makes me curious. That and she is a whore who really wants to be fucked badly

Jaime is awesome because everyone imagined him as a ruthless bastard, and he is just a... misunderstood bastard


----------



## KidTony (Aug 16, 2010)

everytime this thread's updated i think its someone with news on ADWD. ;_;


----------



## martryn (Aug 16, 2010)

That's the only reason I check the thread anymore.  I can barely remember the plots to any of the fucking books.  Gonna have to reread them all before the next one finally is released.


----------



## Felix (Aug 16, 2010)

Apparently he has been actually working on the book. He finished two chapters last week
I just wish NFL was cancelled for a full year.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 16, 2010)

Martin a football fan?


----------



## Nimander (Aug 17, 2010)

Felix said:


> Daenarrys POV and Jaime's are also very good since with Danny we get to see what the hell is going on in the other side of the world, and the whole dragon thing makes me curious. That and she is a whore who really wants to be fucked badly
> 
> Jaime is awesome because everyone imagined him as a ruthless bastard, and he is just a... misunderstood bastard



I'll halfway agree with you on the Daenarys POV; Martin did indeed craft an intriguing plotline for her.  I'll give him that if nothing else.  Jaime though...he still has much to prove before I put him in my list.  Though Martin did only introduce his POV in recent books, so obviously he's setting up Jaime's character for some serious development in the future.  So we'll see what happens.


----------



## Nightfall (Aug 18, 2010)

^Imo Jaime is just becoming better, now that he's freeing himself of Cersei. He was the saving grace of the fourth book. Although personally, I've always liked his character, although Tyrion is still my favorite Lannister.



Felix said:


> Apparently he has been actually working on the book. He finished two chapters last week
> I just wish NFL was cancelled for a full year.



I wish he stopped working on Wildcards as well, who cares about that?


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 18, 2010)

Felix said:


> I just wish NFL was cancelled for a full year.




You have a better chance of immediate pull out of Afghanistan than the NFL being cancelled for a whole season.


----------



## Nakor (Aug 18, 2010)

Hangat?r said:


> You have a better chance of immediate pull out of Afghanistan than the NFL being cancelled for a whole season.



It might be if they can't reach an agreement with the new cba.


----------



## Blackfish (Aug 19, 2010)

Just finished listening to Roy Dotrice's ACOK reading, was nastily surprised when I found out that my ASOS was narrated by Roy Avers. Not that Avers is bad, I've just gotten to used so Dotrice that it's an unwelcome change.


----------



## Charade You Are (Aug 20, 2010)

KidTony said:


> everytime this thread's updated i think its someone with news on ADWD. ;_;


Here's a little (somewhat spoilerish for the new ppl): 

So far he's finished 8 characters (not including prologue and epilogue POV's, which he has finished i think). He still has to finish Jon Snow's chapters, has one more chapter left each for 2 other characters (He won't reveal their names), and has likely one more chapter for another character (one who will help him solve a serious plot-related problem he has termed the "Mereenese Knot" that he can't explain to us without giving spoilers [He's been mentioning this "Knot" for years now])  

For reference, there are 11 _confirmed _POV's in ADWD.  This doesn't include some characters from AFFC which he has stated he may conclude their cliffhangers towards the latter half of ADWD (So far he has revealed that Cersei will be one of them).  Also doesn't include other characters he may have just come up with on the way too.  The three characters who names he won't reveal are probably not part of the 11 confirmed.  So thats probably 14 at least...

Also, keep in mind that his last update was August 7th and he seems to be on a roll now in terms of writing.  So he may be a little farther than this now...

Also, he has pushed back the Aeron Damphair chapters from ADWD to TWOW.  TWOW now has around 100 manuscript pages completed after this.  I think thats it...


----------



## abcd (Sep 10, 2010)

this thread wont be alive till the series or the next book launches i guess  

So I'll just drop one of my fav quotes from the book ....



> The sound went on and on and on, until it seemed it would never die. The ravens were flapping and screaming, flying about their cages and banging off the bars, and all about the camp the brothers of the Night’s Watch were rising, donning their armor, buckling on swordbelts, reaching for battleaxes and bows. Samwell Tarly stood shaking, his face the same color as the snow that swirled down all around them. “Three,” he squeaked to Chett, “that was three, I heard three. They never blow three. Not for hundreds and thousands of years. Three means—”
> “—Others.” Chett made a sound that was half a laugh and half a sob, and suddenly his smallclothes were wet, and he could feel the piss running down his leg, see steam rising off the front of his breeches.


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 10, 2010)

abcd said:


> this thread wont be alive till the series or the next book launches i guess
> 
> So I'll just drop one of my fav quotes from the book ....



Grrm has been in Austrailia for the last couple weeks for Worldcon so he hasn't really updated for quite some time now.  

Nice quote.  I think thats my favorite prolougue out of all the books.  Though AFFC may be up there after I found out the "mystery."


----------



## Pineapples (Sep 10, 2010)

abcd said:


> this thread wont be alive till the series or the next book launches i guess
> 
> So I'll just drop one of my fav quotes from the book ....



From the same prologue:

"Snow was falling"

In this line, I actually felt fairly sorry for Chett.


----------



## abcd (Sep 11, 2010)

The Morning Star said:


> Grrm has been in Austrailia for the last couple weeks for Worldcon so he hasn't really updated for quite some time now.
> 
> Nice quote.  I think thats my favorite prolougue out of all the books.  Though AFFC may be up there after I found out the "mystery."



what mystery ?? :amazed


Hawkins said:


> From the same prologue:
> 
> "Snow was falling"
> 
> In this line, I actually felt fairly sorry for Chett.



yeah, The whole thing was touching.

I dint read thru the thread so I just wanted to ask if ppl in this forum believe in the R+L= J theories too ??


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 11, 2010)

abcd said:


> what mystery ?? :amazed
> 
> 
> yeah, The whole thing was touching.
> ...



Here (I guess its kinda spoilerish if you dont like ppl ruining things for u): 

*Spoiler*: __ 



You may have already come across this, but if you compare Pate's description of the Alchemist's face in the prologue to Arya's description of Jaqen's face in ACOK, they are identical faces.  So it seems to suggest that they are the same person, unless some other trickery is involved.




Actually, this one and another "mystery person" made me like AFFC much better when I found out.  

As for R+L=J, I'm not so sure anymore.  I used to think it was true (I was a little biased though, as I came across the idea in my first read of AGOT and was pleasantly surprised when I found that it was the leading theory on Jon's parentage.)  Some one actually asked GRRM upfront about it once, asking him if he would ever change anything in his books (pointing out R+L=J in particular) if the community had ever guessed them out as prevalent theories.  IIRC, he told them that he would not change anything because of that reason, since the majority of his readers (casual ones) would never go online and see these theories.  

Sometimes I see something like this: 

Here a link.

and I think that it has to be true.  But sometimes the obviousness of it betrays the theory.  It is also telling though, that the majority of the "evidence" for the theory is in the first book and that GRRM toned it down in the later installments.  He would have never known when he started the series that people would one day be discussing and pulling apart every detail of his books at the click of a button.

So right now I'm in between thinking its true or a genius red herring.  Hope that helps :ho


----------



## KidTony (Sep 11, 2010)

Hawkins said:


> From the same prologue:
> 
> "Snow was falling"
> 
> In this line, I actually felt fairly sorry for Chett.



the part i liked was when Chett pissed himself.


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 17, 2010)

Blackfish said:


> Just finished listening to Roy Dotrice's ACOK reading, was nastily surprised when I found out that my ASOS was narrated by Roy Avers. Not that Avers is bad, I've just gotten to used so Dotrice that it's an unwelcome change.


Dotrice is absolutely amaxing. He has the perfect tone and feel of the novels and characters. Honestly I can't imagine anyone else coming close to being as suitable.


----------



## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

Stephen           Fry.


----------



## abcd (Sep 20, 2010)

The Morning Star said:


> Here (I guess its kinda spoilerish if you dont like ppl ruining things for u):
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




I did read about pate and Jaquen, I do believe it since it would make Jaquen a bigger player in the story. 

about R+L=J , I read the theory when i finished the first reading... Now after my second reading it looks very obvious  ....  Jon being one of the heads of the dragon looks nice but i personally think that wolves are more important than dragons in this story ... I hope it is true


----------



## KidTony (Sep 20, 2010)

The jon's parentage thing is downright obvious, i would almost be disappointed if Martin changed it up just so he could shock people that bought into it.


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 20, 2010)

abcd said:


> I did read about pate and Jaquen, I do believe it since it would make Jaquen a bigger player in the story.
> 
> about R+L=J , I read the theory when i finished the first reading... Now after my second reading it looks very obvious  ....  Jon being one of the heads of the dragon looks nice but i personally think that wolves are more important than dragons in this story ... I hope it is true



Its amazing how obvious something becomes in retrospect.  It was the same way with Jaqen and the gravedigger in AFFC.  

As for Jon, he would be both dragon and wolf by blood.  And I would hope that its not just (if true) his dragon side that gives him significance.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 21, 2010)

i'm gonna miss jaime in ADWD. unless anyone knows if he'll show up like cersei?


----------



## abcd (Sep 21, 2010)

escamoh said:


> i'm gonna miss jaime in ADWD. unless anyone knows if he'll show up like cersei?



I thought cersei was moved to the next book ... did he change his mind again ??? 

I also find the description of Tyrions birth by martells (?) ... How they had been invited and had heard about the demon being born etc etc very suspicious


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 21, 2010)

abcd said:


> I thought cersei was moved to the next book ... did he change his mind again ???
> 
> I also find the description of Tyrions birth by martells (?) ... How they had been invited and had heard about the demon being born etc etc very suspicious



GRRM has recently said that Cersei's back in ADWD (of course, warning us that he could change his mind again)  

As for Jaime, GRRM has stated that he would like to wrap up some aFFC cliffhangers in the second half of ADWD.  So far Cersei and Arya are the only ones confirmed, but there could be more.  And there is a chance (depending on how you interepret his cliffhanger, as I've seen ppl go both ways) that he could appear in Cersei's chapters.  Of course, this would then lend itself to Jaime having his own chapters to see events from his view, so maybe not.  

As for Tyrion's birth, I'm guessing you've seen the Tyrion=Targ theories right?

A question I have: So I just remembered an interview I read with GRRM where he said that he had too many POVs and would have to get rid of some of them in the future.  Of course, this probably means he is going to kill them (I think someone suggested to him that he could just stop writing from their points of view, but he didn't seem excited about that) So which POVs do you think he's is going to kill?


----------



## abcd (Sep 21, 2010)

The Morning Star said:


> GRRM has recently said that Cersei's back in ADWD (of course, warning us that he could change his mind again)
> 
> As for Jaime, GRRM has stated that he would like to wrap up some aFFC cliffhangers in the second half of ADWD.  So far Cersei and Arya are the only ones confirmed, but there could be more.  And there is a chance (depending on how you interepret his cliffhanger, as I've seen ppl go both ways) that he could appear in Cersei's chapters.  Of course, this would then lend itself to Jaime having his own chapters to see events from his view, so maybe not.



Cersei seems to have a very important role in these events and he is excited about Arya so I think Cersei will get out of the cliffhanger without Jaime's help and may seek vengeance on him 



The Morning Star said:


> As for Tyrion's birth, I'm guessing you've seen the Tyrion=Targ theories right?



Ya, I have seen these theories but it looks like a red herring --for all we know Tyrion could be Elias son (GRRM did not confirm his death ) or a true lannister (like Jaime's aunt (?) said to him) ..... 



The Morning Star said:


> A question I have: So I just remembered an interview I read with GRRM where he said that he had too many POVs and would have to get rid of some of them in the future.  Of course, this probably means he is going to kill them (I think someone suggested to him that he could just stop writing from their points of view, but he didn't seem excited about that) So which POVs do you think he's is going to kill?



I think he will kill Jaime (I feel like his char is being built up for a bad death in the hands of cersei ), Brienne (after she somehow kills of uncat ),  Aeron Greyjoy .... But i dont see anyone else (POV ) dying now .... He also said ADWD may not have much death....

In the longer run I think Tyrion might die a gallant death, Sansa, Euron greyjoy ... maybe even dany .

but all this is mostly my opinion and fear ( I hated the red wedding as much as i loved it >_>)


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 22, 2010)

abcd said:


> Ya, I have seen these theories but it looks like a red herring --for all we know Tyrion could be Elias son (GRRM did not confirm his death ) or a true lannister (like Jaime's aunt (?) said to him) .....



You mean Aegon right?  I did see that ssm where he had "lots of thoughts about Aegon" whatever that means...But I do think that Rheagar and Elia would have noticed if their son was born handicapped.  Also, consider that Aegon would have been just a little older than Dany and Tyrion is more than 10 years older than her.  

The most common theory i've seen is that Aerys is the father through Tyrion's mom (most speculate through force).  And if you go back and read the Jon chapter in AGOT where he sees Tyrion at the feast, Tyrion's hair is described as a hue of gold that almost looked silver or something like that (and there is the scene where he tells Jon about dreams of [riding?] dragons when he was young).  Of course, like you said, could be a red herring.  Then again, he is GRRM favorite character...

Edit: You mentioning Euron reminded me of something.  I was rereading AFFC recently and I noticed that, in the scene where Euron tells Victarion to go get Dany for him, he mentions that he used to dream of flying when he was younger (IIRC, I dont have a copy on hand at the moment).  This, along with his moniker "Crow's Eye" and his interest in magic got me thinking (and I've seen other people mention something similar to this) that he is connected to the Three-eyed crow and is some sort of anti-Bran.  Just my thoughts...


----------



## Nodonn (Sep 22, 2010)

> In the longer run I think Tyrion might die a gallant death, Sansa, Euron greyjoy ... maybe even dany .



Dany dying?
What would be the point of her entire story then?


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 22, 2010)

KidTony said:


> The jon's parentage thing is downright obvious, i would almost be disappointed if Martin changed it up just so he could shock people that bought into it.


He probably will. For some reason I envision him as a spiteful cunt.


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 22, 2010)

Nodonn said:


> Dany dying?
> What would be the point of her entire story then?



Lesbian fanservice...









...Anyways, if she did die, it would probably be towards the end of the series as a sacrifice kind of thing.  Dont think that will happen though.


----------



## Nodonn (Sep 22, 2010)

I just finally finished AFFC and man that was painful to read.
I hope ADWD will make up for it if it ever comes out.


----------



## martryn (Sep 22, 2010)

Painful?  If it was "painful", you should stop reading the series and look for other interests.


----------



## Nodonn (Sep 23, 2010)

So just because I don't furiously masturbate over every single book I should stop reading the series?

AFFC consisted pretty much entirely of the things I disliked in the previous books and had nothing of the stuff I loved.


----------



## martryn (Sep 23, 2010)

Generally when I find something painful, I stop doing it.

I thought the stuff in Dorne was fucking amazing.  I stopped reading, put the book down, and just sat thinking to myself, fuck.


----------



## LifeMaker (Sep 23, 2010)

martryn said:


> Generally when I find something painful, I stop doing it.
> 
> I thought the stuff in Dorne was fucking amazing.  I stopped reading, put the book down, and just sat thinking to myself, fuck.



to be fair it had some strange bits in like 
*Spoiler*: _spoilers for AFFC obviously_ 



 the mutilation of both Brienne and Mycella in the face areas, it's just getting gratuitous now...  and the Darkstar, i mean, what a chump... 




but all the Jaime and most of the Dorne, and all of the Qyburn bits were pretty damn awesome.


----------



## KidTony (Sep 23, 2010)

I don't think There's anything fishy about Tyrion's birth. I think he is Tywin's son. One of the parts i liked the most about AFFC was the conversation that Jaime had with his aunt where she said that jaime didn't really resemble Tywin that much, but that Tyrion was trully Tywin's son. I loved how that statement put the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion in prespective; Tywin had great disdain for his son, and vice-versa, but in the end, both were much more similar in personality than either of them would be willing to admit.

Thats's exactly how i felt ever since i got to know a little bit about both characters. Jaime is rash and inpetuous, often doing things without thinking. There's no hint of that scheming, calculating gene that is so obvious in both Tywin and Tyrion.


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 23, 2010)

KidTony said:


> I don't think There's anything fishy about Tyrion's birth. I think he is Tywin's son. One of the parts i liked the most about AFFC was the conversation that Jaime had with his aunt where she said that jaime didn't really resemble Tywin that much, but that Tyrion was trully Tywin's son. I loved how that statement put the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion in prespective; Tywin had great disdain for his son, and vice-versa, but in the end, both were much more similar in personality than either of them would be willing to admit.
> 
> Thats's exactly how i felt ever since i got to know a little bit about both characters. Jaime is rash and inpetuous, often doing things without thinking. There's no hint of that scheming, calculating gene that is so obvious in both Tywin and Tyrion.



Great analysis.  Grrm has really done a nice job on developing those two especially.  I favor the idea that Tyrion is still a Lannister, but is also one of the three heads of the dragon.  Having two major characters be revealed to be Targs would kinda be ridiculous imo.  Also, IIRC, Grrm has confirmed that you dont have to be a Targaryen to be one of the three heads.  This does kinda seem odd, but I'm guessing there's a reason for it.


----------



## KidTony (Sep 23, 2010)

Characters i can bet won't die:

-Dany
-Jon
-Bran

Characters who could die towards the end the series

-Tyrion
-Arya
-Sansa

Characters who i bet will die

-Jaime
-Cersei

Characters who i don't care if they die
-Everyone one else.


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 23, 2010)

So would Ser Gregor be considered alive or dead? Same with Catlyn.


----------



## abcd (Sep 25, 2010)

Nodonn said:


> Dany dying?
> What would be the point of her entire story then?



It plays a major part in the Game of thrones  --

GRRM has introduced different players in the game

1) True warrior who became bad etc etc (Robert baratheon)
2) Ethical/moral warrior - Eddard
3) kingmaker - Little finger /varys etc

There are various players and anyone can win or lose....

If dany dies then her concept of ruling is not good enough to deal with the kingdom 




KidTony said:


> I don't think There's anything fishy about Tyrion's birth. I think he is Tywin's son. One of the parts i liked the most about AFFC was the conversation that Jaime had with his aunt where she said that jaime didn't really resemble Tywin that much, but that Tyrion was trully Tywin's son. I loved how that statement put the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion in prespective; Tywin had great disdain for his son, and vice-versa, but in the end, both were much more similar in personality than either of them would be willing to admit.
> 
> Thats's exactly how i felt ever since i got to know a little bit about both characters. Jaime is rash and inpetuous, often doing things without thinking. There's no hint of that scheming, calculating gene that is so obvious in both Tywin and Tyrion.



That is kind of a red  herring there 

We first think of Tywin as someone who hated whores then in the last seen we see something different , I think there is a lot more background to the tywins story which might be explored in future...


Nae'blis said:


> So would Ser Gregor be considered alive or dead? Same with Catlyn.



Catylyn is dead -- She is now like others or something :/


@nodonn : AFFC is supposed to be one of the most depressing books of the series and is a transition book without a climax so there is nothing wrong with the way u feel about it


----------



## KidTony (Sep 25, 2010)

abcd said:


> That is kind of a red  herring there
> 
> *We first think of Tywin as someone who hated whores* then in the last seen we see something different , I think there is a lot more background to the tywins story which might be explored in future...



Not really. He was just against making his family name look bad. He wasn't against Tyrion using whores, but because he wanted to marry Tysha.


----------



## Nodonn (Sep 26, 2010)

> It plays a major part in the Game of thrones --
> 
> GRRM has introduced different players in the game
> 
> ...



That may very well be... but unless Dany's death has some major repercussions she would be irrelevant to the plot. As far as I can remember her only effect on anything else than her own story was that the islanders are coming to get her dragons.
I doubt JRRM would use all those Dany chapters just as setup for that little side story.


----------



## abcd (Sep 26, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Not really. He was just against making his family name look bad. He wasn't against Tyrion using whores, but because he wanted to marry Tysha.



Yeah of course , but tyrion was not able to believe that his dad was using whores  .... Or was it because he was using Shae? 


Nodonn said:


> That may very well be... but unless Dany's death has some major repercussions she would be irrelevant to the plot. As far as I can remember her only effect on anything else than her own story was that the islanders are coming to get her dragons.
> I doubt GRRM would use all those Dany chapters just as setup for that little side story.



I think Dany is one of the most important characters in the story unlike Robb ( who was a one book wonder), I love her theme of growing from a scared, innocent character to someone who understands the world and is trying to be just.

But i have this unshakeable feeling that its the wolves that will be at the top in the end and not the dragons, I think GRRM is using dany as a red herring to make the story unpredictable
Reasons are
1) The whole concept of SOIF came to grrms mind when he got the idea about a wolf being killed by a stag and he made that into a concept of 3 books which later went to 7 books
2) The oldname for book 6 was time for the wolves... It was then removed ( I dont know why he changed it , I always thought that he changed it because of the high amount of readers and spread of the internet making it hard for him to be subtle)
3) Dany getting killed would make a bigger climax than the red wedding


----------



## Nodonn (Sep 26, 2010)

Dany has the potential to be one of the most important characters in the story, but right now there has been zero interaction between her and the rest of the plot.
Should she die before coming to Westeros or at least making some impact on the world her story could be cut without anything important getting lost.


----------



## abcd (Sep 26, 2010)

Nodonn said:


> Dany has the potential to be one of the most important characters in the story, but right now there has been zero interaction between her and the rest of the plot.
> Should she die before coming to Westeros or at least making some impact on the world her story could be cut without anything important getting lost.



Of course ... Meereneese knot was about how these characters met each other i guess ....So they will meet in book 6 and lot of shit will go down in that book and she will probably come to westros in book 6 ( Grrm said ADWD might not mean Dany would invade westros). 

I am talking about something that might happen in the last book....


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 27, 2010)

abcd said:


> Of course ... Meereneese knot was about how these characters met each other i guess ....So they will meet in book 6 and lot of shit will go down in that book and she will probably come to westros in book 6 ( Grrm said ADWD might not mean Dany would invade westros).
> 
> I am talking about something that might happen in the last book....



While its certain that the Knot has something to do with Dany, I am not so sure it is simply them meeting each other (i may be misinterpreting your post here though), especially since Grrm's has had such major problems with it.  He has also said that he would be unable to tell us what it is without giving major spoilers.  i think it has something to do more with Dany leaving Meereen. When Grrm wrote aSoS, he thought that he was going to do a time-skip between that book and affC.  So that's why Dany was adamant of staying in Meereen and training her ability as a leader at the end of aSoS (it was a set-up for the jump).  Now that Grrm has scrapped the time-skip, something needs to happen to get her out of the city, which I think the Knot has something to do with besides Dany meeting the various characters who have come to see her.  

And about Dany's importance: 

If you look at aSoIAF, there are 3 major plots so far: 

1. Dany and her quest to conquer

2. Civil war in Westeros (though this has toned down some)

3. The Wall 

Dany's importance relies on the fact that, besides that she is already the driving force of one of these plots, she will undoubtedly become a, if not _the_, driving force of the other two plots.  Of course, this is all speculation now, but it is sound reasoning and obvious if you look where the story is heading (North if you think about it).


----------



## abcd (Sep 27, 2010)

The Morning Star said:


> While its certain that the Knot has something to do with Dany, I am not so sure it is simply them meeting each other (i may be misinterpreting your post here though), especially since Grrm's has had such major problems with it.  He has also said that he would be unable to tell us what it is without giving major spoilers.  i think it has something to do more with Dany leaving Meereen. When Grrm wrote aSoS, he thought that he was going to do a time-skip between that book and affC.  So that's why Dany was adamant of staying in Meereen and training her ability as a leader at the end of aSoS (it was a set-up for the jump).  Now that Grrm has scrapped the time-skip, something needs to happen to get her out of the city, which I think the Knot has something to do with besides Dany meeting the various characters who have come to see her.
> 
> And about Dany's importance:
> 
> ...



Ya -- Dany was supposed to gain a lot of experience in ruling but now GRRM has to find a way in which he makes her successfully gain experience (he can easily come up with some reason for her to leave mereen).  This might make him change his planned ending (hope he doesn't). 

As far as the plot goes ...

We have 
1) Lions
2) Stags (I dont think Stannis will play a major role though)
3) Wolves
4) Dragons 

Without a doubt the dragons will play a major role in the next 2 books finishing one of the plotlines u mentioned , but finally the wolves will play the major role in the last book to finish their plot line .

I am not saying that Dany will die.... I just think that there is a very good possibility that GRRM might kill her once she played her role in the story, Of course i would love a fairytale ending with Dany coming across the sea and winning the land and hearts of the people...


----------



## KidTony (Sep 27, 2010)

has anyone considered that GRRM might extend the series one or two more books?


----------



## Nodonn (Sep 27, 2010)

KidTony said:


> has anyone considered that GRRM might extend the series one or two more books?



Not if he wants to finish it himself.


----------



## martryn (Sep 27, 2010)

He can't even write a single book, there's no way he'll want to draw this shit out.


----------



## Charade You Are (Sep 27, 2010)

I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.  I don't think I want it to happen though..

Grrm has stated that the story right now (aDwD) is at its widest scope, and the following books will have a much more narrowed narrative  (I'm guessing this due to various characters meeting and having the same or related goals).  I'm thinking that once Dany's invasion has occured and the civil war in westeros ends, the plot will move at a quicker pace once the Wall and the Others becomes everyone's priority.  Though it also seems that Dany's invasion will happen at the end of this book _at best _ so...


----------



## abcd (Sep 27, 2010)

martryn said:


> He can't even write a single book, there's no way he'll want to draw this shit out.



There are valid reasons behind the slow releases... As he himself said writing one of these books is equal to writing 15 normal books ... Ur criticism is unwarranted


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 27, 2010)

or his fat fingers have trouble moving on a keyboard.


----------



## Nakor (Sep 27, 2010)

abcd said:


> There are valid reasons behind the slow releases... As he himself said writing one of these books is equal to writing 15 normal books ... Ur criticism is unwarranted



Bullshit excuse. I know they are long, but Steven Erikson has no problem releasing 1000+ page books every year or two. 

Unless by valid reasons you mean going to conventions.


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## Charade You Are (Sep 27, 2010)

I think the main problem is plot related issues with the book and his expansion of the story. The first three came out pretty quickly, IIRC around 2 years each.  With AFFC he hit a wall when he scrapped the time-skip and alot of the book he had already written.  Now with ADWD we are still left with the problems created by this.  That, along with him getting older, and (according to him) him becoming more of a "perfectionist" has all contributed to the delays...

Edit: In other, nonrelated news, Grrm has just returned home from his month-long vacation in Austrailia.  And to top it off, he is feeling ill.....


----------



## LifeMaker (Sep 28, 2010)

Nakor said:


> Bullshit excuse. I know they are long, but Steven Erikson has no problem releasing 1000+ page books every year or two.
> 
> Unless by valid reasons you mean going to conventions.



although ole Steve has said that doing so is pretty much killing him, so after the Crippled God, it's back to normal schedules (like 2 years a book) for him 

The big issue for George is he never meant to write AFFC or ADWD in the first place, and was planning to have the time skip, that's why he's struggling to make things work. in theory after ADWD is done he should find the going much easier as he'll be back where he planned to be


----------



## Aruarian (Sep 28, 2010)

The fat fuck just needs to stop masturbating to his own fanfics and watching Amefuto, and get back to writing.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2010)

i have a question for anyone else who noticed this

in the first book when jon meets tyrion, tryion jumps off a ledge and does this somersault thing and lands on his hands then jumps into standing position

however after that its shown again and again that he's not that fit

is this is an editing mistake or what? i know tyrion is supposed to have strong arms but that whole scene was weird


----------



## Dream Brother (Sep 28, 2010)

escamoh said:


> i have a question for anyone else who noticed this
> 
> in the first book when jon meets tyrion, tryion jumps off a ledge and does this somersault thing and lands on his hands then jumps into standing position
> 
> ...



Eerie that you mention this. I just started re-reading the first book for the first time in years, and I instantly noticed that scene when I came across it earlier today. It just stuck out as being very strange, even cartoonish, and out of character. I can only assume that Martin's original conception of Tyrion was simply different to what eventually formed, something that is an inevitable part of the writing process.


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## KidTony (Sep 29, 2010)

Not really, jumping off a ledge isn't really that big of a deal. I mean, C'mon guys Tyrion has done a lot of physical things. He fought in that one battle and kicked some ass, he fought the raid by the mountain clans, he fought at king's landing, etc.


----------



## martryn (Sep 29, 2010)

> Not really, jumping off a ledge isn't really that big of a deal. I mean, C'mon guys Tyrion has done a lot of physical things. He fought in that one battle and kicked some ass, he fought the raid by the mountain clans, he fought at king's landing, etc.



I'm an active guy and I can't jump off a ledge onto my hands and do a flip.  That shit is scary and shit.


----------



## Dream Brother (Sep 29, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Not really, jumping off a ledge isn't really that big of a deal. I mean, C'mon guys Tyrion has done a lot of physical things. He fought in that one battle and kicked some ass, he fought the raid by the mountain clans, he fought at king's landing, etc.



It was more due to the way it was described than anything else. 

_'He pushed himself off the ledge into empty air. Jon gasped, then watched with awe as Tyrion Lannister spun around in a tight ball, landed lightly on his hands, then vaulted backward onto his legs.'_

Doing 'physical things' and fighting is one thing -- doing something like the above is quite another. It's more in the gymnastic vein, and it feels a bit incongruous with his later depiction. It's no big deal, but it's just a minor scene I noticed yesterday and mentally marked as being odd, and clearly escamoh noticed the same thing.


----------



## Felix (Sep 29, 2010)

What I make of that is that GRRM intended Tyrion to be the pariah of the family, which he is, but giving him some special trait, almost circus agility one to the "dwarven son"

He probably scrapped that since he was aiming for a more realistic take on his characters. Still, Tyrion for a malformed dwarf managed to do some serious stuff.


----------



## Dionysus (Sep 29, 2010)

When Tyrion was running through the misty forest attacking people in ACOK... yeah, that too was ridiculous. Leaping at people with an ax, if I remember correctly. He became Gimli for a moment.


----------



## KidTony (Sep 29, 2010)

I didn't remeber that description, so yeah it seems a bit exagerated.


----------



## Aruarian (Sep 30, 2010)

Tyrion shall become Warrior Emperor of this world.


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Sep 30, 2010)

I love this series, and Tyrion is freaking awesome 

Jaime seems to be turning into quite an interesting character as well, and I can't wait to find out what's going on with Arya.


----------



## LifeMaker (Sep 30, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> I love this series, and Tyrion is freaking awesome
> 
> Jaime seems to be turning into quite an interesting character as well, and I can't wait to find out what's going on with Arya.



yeah i never thought this possible after book one, but Jaime is certainly one of my favourites now


----------



## Felix (Sep 30, 2010)

Jaime was always one of my favorite antagonists, when he got his POV, it totally showed him in a different light

Feels like two different characters though, the one who pushed Bran and the dutiful Jaime from A Feast of Crows.

Then again, he went through a lot with Brienne


----------



## Dream Brother (Sep 30, 2010)

I really miss Syrio


----------



## LifeMaker (Sep 30, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> I really miss Syrio



yep. although we never did get to see his body... 

The story about the cat was ace though, really cemented him as a clever sod


----------



## Nodonn (Sep 30, 2010)

So I just read Tyrion's, Dany's and Jon's chapter from ADWD and that shit is a thousand times more interesting than anything in AFFC.


----------



## LifeMaker (Sep 30, 2010)

Nodonn said:


> So I just read Tyrion's, Dany's and Jon's chapter from ADWD and that shit is a thousand times more interesting than anything in AFFC.



indeed. although i hate myself for having read like a quarter of the book in spoiler chapters afore its even out


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## KidTony (Sep 30, 2010)

Nodonn said:


> So I just read Tyrion's, Dany's and Jon's chapter from ADWD and that shit is a thousand times more interesting than anything in AFFC.



new ones, or the ones that have been out for a while?


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## Nodonn (Sep 30, 2010)

KidTony said:


> new ones, or the ones that have been out for a while?



Just the three teaser chapters.
I haven't read any other leaked parts of ADWD.


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## Nightfall (Sep 30, 2010)

> “The maesters are doing all they can, Lord Waters assures me, but I fear your brother is too badly
> burned.” Cersei took Margaery in her arms to comfort her. “He saved the realm.” When she kissed the little queen upon the cheek, *she could taste the salt of her tears*. “Jaime will enter all his deeds in the
> White Book, and the singers will sing of him for a thousand years.”



Even Cersei has her moments, poor knight of flowers


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## Charade You Are (Sep 30, 2010)

Nightfall said:


> Even Cersei has her moments



Like the Myrish swamp.....













....Now that I think about it though, I think alot of people (including myself) take that scene the wrong way.  At least IMO.


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## abcd (Oct 1, 2010)

I havent read Dany'S teaser chapter yet... can anyone link me to it ?? I will give you 5 internets


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## Nodonn (Oct 1, 2010)

:3


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2010)

I've been wanting to pick this up for a while, but Malazan series was also heavily recommended so I started out with that. Considering the number of books in that series, it may be a while before I start this. How many books does this currently have published?


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## Dream Brother (Oct 3, 2010)

Currently 4 books out. (Although here in the UK, one of those books was split into two pieces to make 5 books in total.) Personally, I detested the first Malazan book and never continued the series, but hopefully you'll find it better than I did.


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## escamoh (Oct 3, 2010)

can anyone recommend other fantasy novels like this?


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## Nakor (Oct 3, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> Currently 4 books out. (Although here in the UK, one of those books was split into two pieces to make 5 books in total.) *Personally, I detested the first Malazan book and never continued the series,* but hopefully you'll find it better than I did.



I didn't like the first book that much either. It gets much better in the 2nd book


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## Dream Brother (Oct 3, 2010)

escamoh said:


> can anyone recommend other fantasy novels like this?



Joe Abercrombie was heavily inspired by Martin's work, even though his style is clearly different. I would definitely recommend his _First Law_ trilogy. 



> I didn't like the first book that much either. It gets much better in the 2nd book



I've noticed that most people disliked that first book, even some of Erikson's ardent fans. I've heard that the series definitely improves after that, but it still doesn't look like my thing, to be honest -- I like books that place characters first, rather than going for the epic, sweeping style. Granted, Martin's book are also epics in a sense, but he's always rooted in the character dimension, and he builds outward from there. Erikson seems to be the opposite, someone interested in abstract ideas and complex plotting.

That being said, I'm reading an Erikson interview at the moment, and he at least seems like a decent and smart guy, who notes that people either 'hate [his] series or love it'. I also love how he wanted to make a multicultural fantasy world.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 3, 2010)

lol I only just realised that there was a "House Jordayne of the Tor" who accompanied Oberyn Martell to Kings Landing.


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## Felix (Oct 3, 2010)

Martin is a fan of Robin Hobb so...

Farseer Trilogy


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## Nakor (Oct 3, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> I've noticed that most people disliked that first book, even some of Erikson's ardent fans. I've heard that the series definitely improves after that, but it still doesn't look like my thing, to be honest -- I like books that place characters first, rather than going for the epic, sweeping style. Granted, Martin's book are also epics in a sense, but he's always rooted in the character dimension, and he builds outward from there. Erikson seems to be the opposite, someone interested in abstract ideas and complex plotting.
> 
> That being said, I'm reading an Erikson interview at the moment, and he at least seems like a decent and smart guy, who notes that people either 'hate [his] series or love it'. I also love how he wanted to make a multicultural fantasy world.



I would agree with this. What interview are you reading?



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Martin is a fan of Robin Hobb so...
> 
> Farseer Trilogy



I second that. I really enjoyed it.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 3, 2010)

... Robin Hobb wasn't exactly what I had in mind lol.


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## Felix (Oct 3, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> ... Robin Hobb wasn't exactly what I had in mind lol.



No sorry I forgot to quote, it wasn't a reply to your post
That reference if obviously a reference to Jordan


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## Dream Brother (Oct 3, 2010)

Oh, the interview in question is right here: 

As for Hobb, yeah, her _Farseer_ stuff is great.


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## Nakor (Oct 3, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> Oh, the interview in question is right here:



Thank you!


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## KidTony (Oct 3, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> I've noticed that most people disliked that first book, even some of Erikson's ardent fans. I've heard that the series definitely improves after that, but it still doesn't look like my thing, to be honest -- I like books that place characters first, rather than going for the epic, sweeping style. Granted, Martin's book are also epics in a sense, but he's always rooted in the character dimension, and he builds outward from there. Erikson seems to be the opposite, someone interested in abstract ideas and complex plotting.
> 
> That being said, I'm reading an Erikson interview at the moment, and he at least seems like a decent and smart guy, who notes that people either 'hate [his] series or love it'. I also love how he wanted to make a multicultural fantasy world.



I'm actually more in the middle ground. I'm not one of those huge Erickson fans (don't like him anywhere near as much as Martin), but i far from dislike his stuff. Its weird, because i like the books a lot, yet i find them hard to get into. Reading Erickson is like work. You have to think a lot and connect plotlines, and suffer through a lot of abstract stuff that he consistently sprinkles into his books. Like this guy will actually sit there and write a chapter fully from the POV of a cockroach, just like he would write from the POV of a main character. He'll give equal standing to that roach as his gives the main character, and he won't apologize for it either. He has so many awesome and epic characters yet thinks talking about a bug is just as interesting, which is something that can frustrate you to no end. I'm halfway through the fourth book and really have to fight myself at the moments to get through it (haven't touched it in weeks.). You just have to be in the right mood to read Erickson, i do it at the most random times. Oddly enough, the first book so far has been my favorite.


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## LifeMaker (Oct 4, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> I've noticed that most people disliked that first book, even some of Erikson's ardent fans. I've heard that the series definitely improves after that, but it still doesn't look like my thing, to be honest -- I like books that place characters first, rather than going for the epic, sweeping style. Granted, Martin's book are also epics in a sense, but he's always rooted in the character dimension, and he builds outward from there. Erikson seems to be the opposite, someone interested in abstract ideas and complex plotting.
> 
> .



Guess i'm in the minority as Gardens of the Moon is my favourite one in the series, but then i am a big Rake fanboy


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## abcd (Oct 4, 2010)

When I finished ASOIAF I immediately went and got the first books in Wheel of time, Malazan and Farseer triology . I read the first 2/3 pages pf all three and started with Farseer trilogy. I really want to pick up Malazan next but U guys are scaring me saying its like _*work *_ ... Is Malazan just an elitists paradise or truly marvelous ?


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## LifeMaker (Oct 4, 2010)

personally i think its marvellous, but it does drag in places, but then i found Robin Hobbs farseer trilogy the most boring thing ever so if you can stomach that then you can handle the slower bits of Erikkson


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## KidTony (Oct 4, 2010)

It is Marvellous, but that doesn't make the books any less taxing to read, at least for me. With Erickson, you have to stop and marvell at the epic scale of his books. He has a history for his world that spans millenia, and it's not filler either, he could write volumes on the stuff easily--just on the history of the world. He has history before history, and history before that too, and then some before that as well. It's just that i think it could have been better if he would have focused the story a little bit more. Sacrificed a bit of that grandiose scale for a bit less central characters and more focused storyline.


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## abcd (Oct 7, 2010)

SunlightHeartPlus said:


> personally i think its marvellous, but it does drag in places, but then i found Robin Hobbs farseer trilogy the most boring thing ever so if you can stomach that then you can handle the slower bits of Erikkson



Farseer is like a real biography set in a fantasy world.... ITs slow but as u connect to the character u feel for him, U are worried about him and things are pretty unpredictable , I am on the 3rd book and really interested in what is happening . 

But I think Farseer is light , does not need more than one read unlike ASOIAF.


KidTony said:


> It is Marvellous, but that doesn't make the books any less taxing to read, at least for me. With Erickson, you have to stop and marvell at the epic scale of his books. He has a history for his world that spans millenia, and it's not filler either, he could write volumes on the stuff easily--just on the history of the world. He has history before history, and history before that too, and then some before that as well. It's just that i think it could have been better if he would have focused the story a little bit more. Sacrificed a bit of that grandiose scale for a bit less central characters and more focused storyline.



It sounds pretty interesting..... You actually convinced me to read this next.


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## LifeMaker (Oct 7, 2010)

i preferred Hobb's Liveship Traders myself, i felt nothing for the bum in the first trilogy. maybe i'm just cold


----------



## Dream Brother (Oct 7, 2010)

SunlightHeartPlus said:


> i preferred Hobb's Liveship Traders myself, i felt nothing for the bum in the first trilogy. maybe i'm just cold



I also think that _Liveship Traders_ was Hobb's best work, but it doesn't seem to be the majority opinion. (Although George R.R. Martin agrees with us.) _Farseer_ is still ace, though. 



> Reading Erickson is like work.



Very much so.


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## Dionysus (Oct 7, 2010)

George R.R .Martin's _A Song of SciFi Cons and Football_


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## abcd (Oct 7, 2010)

Mashed Potato said:


> George R.R .Martin's _A Song of SciFi Cons and Football_



So it is better if the author "works" for the story instead of enjoying the writing?


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## martryn (Oct 7, 2010)

Why does no one read Donaldson.  If you want to read great fantasy, read some Stephen R. Donaldson.  Read some of his short stories and see if you like his brand of fantasy, and then perhaps delve in.  Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is one of the greatest fantasy series of all time.  I'm looking forward to the latest volume of that book more so than anything else.


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## Nodonn (Oct 8, 2010)

abcd said:


> So it is better if the author "works" for the story instead of enjoying the writing?



To be honest I don't really give two shits about what Martin thinks of writing AsoIaF, as long as he hurries the fuck up.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 8, 2010)

martryn said:


> Why does no one read Donaldson.  If you want to read great fantasy, read some Stephen R. Donaldson.  Read some of his short stories and see if you like his brand of fantasy, and then perhaps delve in.  Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is one of the greatest fantasy series of all time.  I'm looking forward to the latest volume of that book more so than anything else.



Because half price for some reason doesn't have the first Thomas Covenant book.


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## abcd (Oct 8, 2010)

Nodonn said:


> To be honest I don't really give two shits about what Martin thinks of writing AsoIaF, as long as he hurries the fuck up.



hey come on u finished the 4th book only few weeks back


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## Dionysus (Oct 8, 2010)

abcd said:


> So it is better if the author "works" for the story instead of enjoying the writing?


If I took most of my time on vacation doing nothing but basking in the limelight of past success, I'd be fired and out on the street. It's a sweet gig if you can live off royalties and name recognition.

He claims to be having difficulty with the story. The only way through this is hard work. In fact, if you write a novel in general, it's mostly hard work. If I have trouble solving a problem, I might take a break now and then, but procrastinating off and on for 6 years isn't a solution.

Yeah, I don't give a shit if he enjoys what he does. I also don't care if the waiter at the restaurant down the street is happy to bring me my food. I also don't care if GRRM never finishes this story. But, I'll reserve the right to call him a lazy bastard.

I bought AFFC first edition hard cover. I'm not even going to buy ADWD. I might give my library some reason to exist.


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## Nodonn (Oct 8, 2010)

abcd said:


> hey come on u finished the 4th book only few weeks back



That doesn't really matter, not finishing a book after 10 years of writing is pathetic.


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## abcd (Oct 8, 2010)

Mashed Potato said:


> If I took most of my time on vacation doing nothing but basking in the limelight of past success, I'd be fired and out on the street. It's a sweet gig if you can live off royalties and name recognition.
> 
> He claims to be having difficulty with the story. The only way through this is hard work. In fact, if you write a novel in general, it's mostly hard work. If I have trouble solving a problem, I might take a break now and then, but procrastinating off and on for 6 years isn't a solution.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with u in being frustrated with the author. I only disagree with you dictating how he should work. I think you clearly understand that any work that hinges on creativity is very different from repetitive work (Even if u compared his job with that of a waiter). You should also understand that writing more books clearly pays you more than not writing a book for a long time. Regardless of the quality Terry Pratchett would earn more than George RR Martin. If the author was really looking for money he would have written at least 10 books by now.

Let us look at the time lineof the series

His first book came out in *1996*
Second one in *1998*
third book in *2000*
fourth in *2005*

The first three books were written with a gap of 2 years each while the fourth one took 5 years.
Did the author get lazy and lose interest in the book? 
Well If you actually look at how the series was planned

He started writing in *1991*
It took him 5 years to plan the series  and then create a constant flow of books but for some creative reasons he wanted remove_ a five year time skip_ from the series. This caused some major problems as some of his earlier plans went awry like Danny's stay in Mereen (Which most ppl consider as the Meerenes knot).

He has completely rewritten book four and parts of book five and released it in 2005 and promised the fans that he will try to release the book in the next year (The biggest mistake he did). He has since then planned the story and has written the same chapters at least 5 times and is still made by his publishers to attend Cons (Yes it is not his choice completely though he has reduced them greatly in the last 2 years). He has now finished 1400 pages in the manuscript and trying to add a new POV which will help him untie the meerenese knot.

The point I am trying to make is that he is still fully interested in the series which is far better than losing interest; This is a creative work which needs time and some distractions and If u add the additional work he is doing for the HBO version U will see that there is not much of a lag from 1991 to now.

Edit: I do agree that he should handle his fans better and show them how important they are.

Also this



> Fan: "Off topic--but I'm very excited to hear about a publication date from your publisher. I thought that we were going to hear it from you first? It would be great to have a confirmation."
> GRRM: "Consider this an anti-confirmation. You WILL hear it from me first. As I have said before, numerous times, believe nothing you hear from any other source."


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## Dream Brother (Oct 8, 2010)

Dionysus' name change successfully confused me...I thought it was Mashy all this time 

In regard to Martin, I was quite weary of him for a while, due to his latest work being poor, and for the newest book being in limbo. I recently started rereading the series, though, and it reminded me of just how good those books are -- at his best, he really shines. I've been reading other fantasy works recently, and I only truly appreciate Martin when I compare his work to their stuff. He really didn't do himself justice with AFFC, and splitting the books based on character POV was a horrendous decision. The urgency to read the next book in the series has long died down, so I'm just gonna shrug and say that I don't mind waiting.



martryn said:


> Why does no one read Donaldson.  If you want to read great fantasy, read some Stephen R. Donaldson.  Read some of his short stories and see if you like his brand of fantasy, and then perhaps delve in.  Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is one of the greatest fantasy series of all time.  I'm looking forward to the latest volume of that book more so than anything else.



Donaldson is pretty good, but not a favourite of mine. TCoTC has a very interesting premise and protagonist, and I particularly enjoyed the beginning, but I kept losing interest during long patches of the book. Every time I thought about stopping, a flash of interest appeared, but it wasn't consistent for me. I like the fact that Donaldson was experimenting with subverting fantasy tropes even before things like ASoIaF were published, but I don't think his writing is as polished or effective as someone like Martin or Hobb. (I certainly enjoyed his work more than Erikson's stuff, though.)


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## LifeMaker (Oct 8, 2010)

martryn said:


> Why does no one read Donaldson.  If you want to read great fantasy, read some Stephen R. Donaldson.  Read some of his short stories and see if you like his brand of fantasy, and then perhaps delve in.  Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is one of the greatest fantasy series of all time.  I'm looking forward to the latest volume of that book more so than anything else.



oh i've read his works, and they are certainly all right, but not quite my cup of tea...


anyway on the Martin and his epic slowness i don't complain, after all, if he doesn't finish writing it he doesn't get any more of my money


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## Meraxes (Oct 8, 2010)

He keeps going to conventions instead of writing and we all know why! It's because, as he admitted, he fucked up his timeline in AFFC and now it's being really tricky to sort out, he should have just kept doing it the way he did before is AGOT ACOK and ASOS.

I am still waiting with baited breath though, but there is only so much time I can waste on RP forums before I just give up!


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## LifeMaker (Oct 9, 2010)

yeah don't get me wrong and its a favourite series of mine, and i bought a Game of Thrones about a week after release so i've been waiting through the long haul, and it used to annoy me, but its been so long i've become desensitised to the wait...

it's ironic i made a bet with a friend that Robert Jordan would finish a Memory Of Light before we saw a Dance with Dragons despite being dead, and i'm looking 50/50 for collecting at this point


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## Meraxes (Oct 9, 2010)

SunlightHeartPlus said:


> it's ironic i made a bet with a friend that Robert Jordan would finish a Memory Of Light before we saw a Dance with Dragons despite being dead, and i'm looking 50/50 for collecting at this point



Considering GRRM's physical fitness and hi age... If he doesn't die of old age... he'll have soon have a blood clot and we'll never find out that Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents


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## Dream Brother (Oct 9, 2010)

I really hope that theory about the parents isn't true, gah.


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## martryn (Oct 9, 2010)

> I really hope that theory about the parents isn't true, gah.



Why?  Too obvious?  Should he change what he had intended because he foreshadowed it too heavily? 



> Donaldson is pretty good, but not a favourite of mine. TCoTC has a very interesting premise and protagonist, and I particularly enjoyed the beginning, but I kept losing interest during long patches of the book. Every time I thought about stopping, a flash of interest appeared, but it wasn't consistent for me. I like the fact that Donaldson was experimenting with subverting fantasy tropes even before things like ASoIaF were published, but I don't think his writing is as polished or effective as someone like Martin or Hobb. (I certainly enjoyed his work more than Erikson's stuff, though.)



I find Donaldson more believable.  Main characters don't have a magic shield that irrationally protects them from harm (Martin is bad about this despite the fact people are convinced he's not bad about this).  His world is vague, and there's not as much detail, but at the same time the world is as vague as it should be as viewed through the eyes of the main characters, who are not a part of it.  There is a rich history apparent, though.  The further into the series, the more you learn about the powers that be, etc.  

His characters are a bit too introspective, though.  At times that's ok, but it does slow down the plot of his novels, where the action takes in short bursts, and then the main characters reflect on the action for several chapters and try to determine their own fucked up morality again.  

One of the greatest things about Thomas Covenant is Fantasy Bedtime Hour.  
Brandon Marshall


----------



## Nakor (Oct 9, 2010)

martryn said:


> Why does no one read Donaldson.  If you want to read great fantasy, read some Stephen R. Donaldson.  Read some of his short stories and see if you like his brand of fantasy, and then perhaps delve in.  Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is one of the greatest fantasy series of all time.  I'm looking forward to the latest volume of that book more so than anything else.



I've read Mordant's Need. It certainly wasn't anything spectacular but I enjoyed reading it none-the-less. It had an interesting take as the story was focused around mirrors. I've wanted to pick up Chronicles of Thomas Covenant but I could never find a new copy of the first trilogy that wasn't outrageously priced. I'll have to go used to purchase it. 



Lord Yu said:


> Because half price for some reason doesn't have the first Thomas Covenant book.



Half price books? I LOVE that store. They don't have them where I live now, but whenever I go to Pittsburgh I always have to stop in there at least once. 



Dream Brother said:


> I really hope that theory about the parents isn't true, gah.



I'd rather it be true than Martin having his parents be other people just to throw us readers off. If Martin planned from the beginning to have them be his parents then that's what I want. I don't want him changing them at book 4 because his series is more popular than he thought it would be when he started and now he wants to look more clever.

If it's not Jon then who is the child?


----------



## martryn (Oct 9, 2010)

> I've read Mordant's Need. It certainly wasn't anything spectacular but I enjoyed reading it none-the-less. It had an interesting take as the story was focused around mirrors. I've wanted to pick up Chronicles of Thomas Covenant but I could never find a new copy of the first trilogy that wasn't outrageously priced. I'll have to go used to purchase it.



I actually preferred Mordant's Need.  Similar themes, though.  I liked the concept of magic through mirrors a lot.  It's been forever since I've read those books, but I have a lot of fond memories. 

You shouldn't have that much trouble finding a copy of the first two trilogies.  They have them in paperback for like $8 at Books-a-Million or Barnes and Noble or even Hastings. 

Much rarer, though, is his Gap Cycle, which is Donaldson's foray into sci-fi.  Shit is brutal, and some of the best sci-fi I've ever read.  It plays on the idea of role reversal, kinda, where it takes the traditional roles of the hero, the villain, and the victim, so that by the end of the series the hero is the villain, the victim becomes heroic, and the villain ends up being victimized. 



> I'd rather it be true than Martin having his parents be other people just to throw us readers off. If Martin planned from the beginning to have them be his parents then that's what I want. I don't want him changing them at book 4 because his series is more popular than he thought it would be when he started and now he wants to look more clever.
> 
> If it's not Jon then who is the child?



I completely agree with this.  Authors shouldn't try to deceive their readers.  If they lay down clues and foreshadow something is going to happen, it should happen.  Otherwise you shouldn't have foreshadowed it so heavily.  That, or use a fucking lampshade, and then deceive us.  Leave this shit about misleading the audience to movies and shit where it belongs.


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## Dream Brother (Oct 9, 2010)

martryn said:


> Why?  Too obvious?  Should he change what he had intended because he foreshadowed it too heavily?



I can't remember how much foreshadowing there was, but I just don't like the idea of Jon having 'special' parents, especially someone like Rhaegar. Martin's work always feels like a reaction against typical romanticism found in epic fantasy. As Littlefinger says at one point, 'life is not a song'. Jon having such famous and intriguing parentage makes me wince in this context...it feels so much more Martin-like for his mother to be no one special at all. I don't really want Jon to get tangled up in the affairs of the crown -- he's always been the different one, the one building his own path away from all those squabbles and politics. I would find the character much more interesting without the 'special' background...it's a bit like (and I apologise for using such a dumb example) _Naruto_, where I found him to be a much better character without all the rubbish about his famous parents, his destiny, the prophecy and such. 



> I find Donaldson more believable.  Main characters don't have a magic shield that irrationally protects them from harm (Martin is bad about this despite the fact people are convinced he's not bad about this).



I've seen people criticise Martin for things, but never this particular element...his stuff seems pretty believable to me, although I know some people find it a tad too grim and overly cynical. I always feel as if his characters are in danger, and that nearly anyone can die...and pretty much all of them at least suffer physically and emotionally. You're right in that Donaldson's stuff is also believable and refuses to cheat the reader, though...especially when:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Covenant rapes that girl, the repercussions of that action echoing through the books afterwards, the dynamic between him and Elena, all the scenes in which people from the 'real' world treat him horrendously due to his condition, when he walks in on that religious gathering, etc. All good stuff.






> His world is vague, and there's not as much detail, but at the same time the world is as vague as it should be as viewed through the eyes of the main characters, who are not a part of it.  There is a rich history apparent, though.  The further into the series, the more you learn about the powers that be, etc.
> 
> His characters are a bit too introspective, though.  At times that's ok, but it does slow down the plot of his novels, where the action takes in short bursts, and then the main characters reflect on the action for several chapters and try to determine their own fucked up morality again.



I don't actually mind about the world, I think it was just all the travelling and journeying and quests that bored me. The main thing I look for in books is good characterisation and character dynamics, and while I enjoyed that aspect in some of Donaldson's work (Covenant, Elena, Hile Troy) I definitely prefer the seamless flow and depth of Martin's character work. (Well, aside from AFFC.)



> I'd rather it be true than Martin having his parents be other people just to throw us readers off. If Martin planned from the beginning to have them be his parents then that's what I want. I don't want him changing them at book 4 because his series is more popular than he thought it would be when he started and now he wants to look more clever.
> 
> If it's not Jon then who is the child?



If Martin planned it from the beginning, then it probably would be best to stick with it rather than just throwing in a last minute change, aye. I have no idea what he planned for Jon, though -- despite foreshadowing here and there, I don't think there's anything concrete. I mainly remember the name 'Wylla' that kept cropping up, in the convo between Ned and Robert, and then again when some guy tells Arya...I need to check the books, as my memory is bad.


----------



## Nakor (Oct 9, 2010)

martryn said:


> You shouldn't have that much trouble finding a copy of the first two trilogies.  They have them in paperback for like $8 at Books-a-Million or Barnes and Noble or even Hastings.



No Books-a-Million or Hastings near me. I usually buy books from amazon.


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## KidTony (Oct 9, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> I can't remember how much foreshadowing there was, but I just don't like the idea of Jon having 'special' parents, especially someone like Rhaegar. Martin's work always feels like a reaction against typical romanticism found in epic fantasy. As Littlefinger says at one point, 'life is not a song'. Jon having such famous and intriguing parentage makes me wince in this context...it feels so much more Martin-like for his mother to be no one special at all. I don't really want Jon to get tangled up in the affairs of the crown -- he's always been the different one, the one building his own path away from all those squabbles and politics. I would find the character much more interesting without the 'special' background...it's a bit like (and I apologise for using such a dumb example) _Naruto_, where I found him to be a much better character without all the rubbish about his famous parents, his destiny, the prophecy and such.



There was A LOT of foreshadowing. I didn't really know how much until i stepped back and started reading fan sites where they gather all the pieces of evidence and put it together. After that i think there's no way he's not Lyana and Rhaegar's son.

Read this when you have some time. If you aren't convinced afterwards, i'd like to hear why.
Here a link.

About the point you raised of ASOIF shying away from romanticism, that's a good one, though i tend to disagree a bit. I view ASOIF as set in stark, grim, realistic world, but with the more that time passes, the more the world is reverting back to how it was in the past. We see magic, which didn't have much of a role in the series at the start, start to gain some relevance as the story progressed. We see supernatural things that were unheard of for hundreds of years (the others, dragons, magic, etc) starting to play a more prominent role. That's why i don't view this more romanticized back story as particularity anti-martin, since the groundwork is there for more of the traditional fantasy tropes.




> I've seen people criticise Martin for things, but never this particular element...his stuff seems pretty believable to me, although I know some people find it a tad too grim and overly cynical. I always feel as if his characters are in danger, and that nearly anyone can die...and pretty much all of them at least suffer physically and emotionally. You're right in that Donaldson's stuff is also believable and refuses to cheat the reader, though



I actually think he's right about this. I think some characters in the series are safe even from Martin's heavy-handed axe. Jon, and Dany, i don't think, in fact i could bet money, Martin won't kill them off. Martin usually kills off characters that serve little or no purpose in the future of the story. He doesn't kill people for shock value, but because they have no further place in the story. With the driving characters in the story such as Jon, Dany and Bran, i doubt he'll kill, at least until the end of the series. These three characters i really never think they're in any danger.


----------



## Dream Brother (Oct 9, 2010)

KidTony said:


> There was A LOT of foreshadowing. I didn't really know how much until i stepped back and started reading fan sites where they gather all the pieces of evidence and put it together. After that i think there's no way he's not Lyana and Rhaegar's son.
> 
> Read this when you have some time. If you aren't convinced afterwards, i'd like to hear why.
> Here a link.



I can't actually see the article...just a blank space and then all the comments. Might be my computer, or did I miss something I had to click?

/edit

Working now...reading through it. Very interesting stuff. 



> About the point you raised of ASOIF shying away from romanticism, that's a good one, though i tend to disagree a bit. I view ASOIF as set in stark, grim, realistic world, but with the more that time passes, the more the world is reverting back to how it was in the past. We see magic, which didn't have much of a role in the series at the start, start to gain some relevance as the story progressed. We see supernatural things that were unheard of for hundreds of years (the others, dragons, magic, etc) starting to play a more prominent role. That's why i don't view this more romanticized back story as particularity anti-martin, since the groundwork is there for more of the traditional fantasy tropes.



Magic isn't inherently romanticised to me, though. Same for the supernatural elements. It's true that these things are coming into greater focus now, but Martin consistently drenches them in the same grimness and morbidity as the rest of his world...in fact, this is demonstrated at the opening of the very first book in the series, when those zombie-men attack beyond the wall. We've also seen Dany's dragons cooking people and burning places down, we've seen Melisandre murder people with 'shadows', the multiple chilling encounters with the Others, we had that rather repulsive ritual with burning leeches and then the deaths of Joff, Rob, etc. Nearly every time Martin uses magic/supernatural elements, he emphasises its potential deadliness and its ominousness, in a fashion almost reminiscent of the horror or gothic genre. There are probable exceptions of course, as always, but I think his main emphasis has always been darkness and despair, and the use of magic and supernatural elements is utterly coated in that too.



> I actually think he's right about this. I think some characters in the series are safe even from Martin's heavy-handed axe. Jon, and Dany, i don't think, in fact i could bet money, Martin won't kill them off. Martin usually kills off characters that serve little or no purpose in the future of the story. He doesn't kill people for shock value, but because they have no further place in the story. With the driving characters in the story such as Jon, Dany and Bran, i doubt he'll kill, at least until the end of the series. These three characters i really never think they're in any danger.



I agree that some characters seem safer than others due to their function in the plot, but I think Martin still does a very good job of convincing the reader of the danger that they are always in. Even though I can be reasonably sure that a certain character won't die, I can never be 100% certain, whereas in most other works in the field I've never felt that way. We can never know if someone will have no further place in the story, because only Martin knows how the plot unfolds -- we can predict certain things, but I think he mostly does well at keeping people on their toes. He's not infallible of course, but I think he's far better at doing this than most other writers that I've come across in the genre.


----------



## martryn (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm not saying that Jon is forever safe, but you have to admit that when it comes down to it, Arya is not going to die.  And she should have died several times.  Bran is the same way.  Sansa's future could be more up in the air, I think, but Dany is safe as well.  

That's the problem with this many points of view.  You know that Martin can't kill off Dany because she's the only point of view in her part of the world.  He didn't invest so heavily in her story to kill her off before it sees completion. 



> I can't remember how much foreshadowing there was, but I just don't like the idea of Jon having 'special' parents, especially someone like Rhaegar. Martin's work always feels like a reaction against typical romanticism found in epic fantasy. As Littlefinger says at one point, 'life is not a song'. Jon having such famous and intriguing parentage makes me wince in this context



But Jon becoming leader of the Wall before he's 18 doesn't bother you, when there are tons of great leaders present, with more experience?  Seems like a song.  Seems like typical high fantasy.  I love Martin, but he's slipping further from this pedestal with each book he releases.  Things are becoming more akin to other fantasy. 



> I view ASOIF as set in stark, grim, realistic world, but with the more that time passes, the more the world is reverting back to how it was in the past.



This is sorta what I'm talking about.  Martin is probably the best fantasy I've read, or close to it, but the gritty fantasy world he portrayed in the first book is slipping more into... fairy tale fantasy?  It's hard to describe it, really.  It's becoming more and more similar to something like the Wheel of Time, which is fucking fantastic as well, but it's less gritty and less real seeming.  I don't really know if I can properly put it into words.


----------



## Dream Brother (Oct 9, 2010)

> But Jon becoming leader of the Wall before he's 18 doesn't bother you, when there are tons of great leaders present, with more experience?  Seems like a song.  Seems like typical high fantasy.  I love Martin, but he's slipping further from this pedestal with each book he releases.  Things are becoming more akin to other fantasy.



That didn't bother me, as no one really holds the Watch in much esteem at all...most people think of them as a bunch of rapists, thieves, murderers and such (a perspective that has quite a bit of validity to it), a sort of dead end job where all the exiles and failures end up. It was also made clear from the first book that even a bastard could rise high on the Wall, and I think I knew from that point that Jon would make it. I think it's considered 'cool' by readers, but nowhere near glamorous by the actual people in Martin's world. If you think leading a bunch of criminals and turning into a human icicle on a big Wall (while pretty much everyone else turns their noses up at you) is like a 'song' and in the tradition of typical high fantasy, I dunno what to say, really. 

The age thing is dubious, agreed, but I can overlook that, considering his experiences and what he's been through. (Also when considering that the job isn't exactly a cushy one, as I mentioned.) I also agree that Martin slipped up with his last book, but I thought everything before that was ace. 



> This is sorta what I'm talking about.  Martin is probably the best fantasy I've read, or close to it, but the gritty fantasy world he portrayed in the first book is slipping more into... fairy tale fantasy?  It's hard to describe it, really.  It's becoming more and more similar to something like the Wheel of Time, which is fucking fantastic as well, but it's less gritty and less real seeming.  I don't really know if I can properly put it into words.



I can't agree with you guys here -- I can plainly see that more and more magic is coming into Martin's world, but I don't think the books are slipping into fairy tale fantasy at all.

(Although a lot of fairy tales had quite dark subject matter and endings in their older/original forms.)


----------



## Nakor (Oct 9, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> I agree that some characters seem safer than others due to their function in the plot, but I think Martin still does a very good job of convincing the reader of the danger that they are always in. Even though I can be reasonably sure that a certain character won't die, I can never be 100% certain, whereas in most other works in the field I've never felt that way. We can never know if someone will have no further place in the story, because only Martin knows how the plot unfolds -- we can predict certain things, but I think he mostly does well at keeping people on their toes. He's not infallible of course, but I think he's far better at doing this than most other writers that I've come across in the genre.



Erickson does a good job at it too. Their are more POVs in his books than in Martin's with some books focusing on one continent and other books focusing on others. Though that may take away a readers attachment to a character since the author hasn't invested as much with him/her. I was surprised a little on some of the deaths. 

I will admit though that I was shocked by some of the deaths in ASoIaF as this was the first series I've read where POV characters die.



			
				martryn said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that Jon is forever safe, but you have to admit that when it comes down to it, Arya is not going to die. And she should have died several times. Bran is the same way. Sansa's future could be more up in the air, I think, but Dany is safe as well.
> 
> That's the problem with this many points of view. You know that Martin can't kill off Dany because she's the only point of view in her part of the world. He didn't invest so heavily in her story to kill her off before it sees completion.



I totally agree with this. I feel like Sansa could die before the last book. Bran, Arya, Jon, and Dany won't die til the last book, if they do at all. I believe one or two of them will. There really aren't any other characters that Martin could use as a POV in replacement of them. He technically could, it would probably suck though. 

I'm not sure about Tyrion though. At times I feel like he will make it to the end(or close to it), and other times I feel like he could die in the next chapter.


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## Darth (Oct 9, 2010)

Almost finished with "A Storm of Swords", and I just hit the part where Jaime went back to Harrenhall to rescue Brienne, and I thought that was a pretty big turnaround. And also pretty cool.

Still trying to figure out where this is going. Beric Dondarrion is also pretty awesome. But this whole "Lord of Light" nonsense is really starting to irritate. 

I'm trying to wonder where Thoros and Melisandre actually get their powers from. My guess is that it has something to do with Dany's dragons.


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## masamune1 (Oct 9, 2010)

Lord of Light is real. Jon Snow is Jon Targaryen, and the real Azor Ahai. He'll get Lightbringer and use it to beat the Others at the end, probably via killing a loved one. That's where the story is going.


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## abcd (Oct 10, 2010)

masamune1 said:


> Lord of Light is real. Jon Snow is Jon Targaryen, and the real Azor Ahai. He'll get Lightbringer and use it to beat the Others at the end, probably via killing a loved one. That's where the story is going.



Tyrion Targaryen is equally capable of becoming the light bringer after Dany died and her dragons went with him


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## The Imp (Oct 10, 2010)

abcd said:


> Tyrion Targaryen is equally capable of becoming the light bringer after Dany died and her dragons went with him



Tyrion Targaryen? 

wat


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## masamune1 (Oct 10, 2010)

abcd said:


> Tyrion Targaryen is equally capable of becoming the light bringer after Dany died and her dragons went with him



Lightbringer is the sword, not the saviour job.


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## abcd (Oct 10, 2010)

That was a crack post to confuse the other guy  

But I have read many Tyrion Targaryen theories


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## Darth (Oct 10, 2010)

QUIT RUINING THE STORY FOR ME YOU BASTARDS!


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## Nakor (Oct 10, 2010)

I would just stay away from this thread til you finish the books then


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## Charade You Are (Oct 12, 2010)

Here's some potentially good news (Although I have come to somewhat doubt anything his editors/ publishers say due to past "promises") :



Of course, GRRM is in Ireland right now so....


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## martryn (Oct 13, 2010)

Fuck.  Finally.  The announce the publication date and I can schedule a re-reading of the series as it's been forever since I last read it.


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## abcd (Oct 13, 2010)

GRRM has clearly said 

If we hear updates, We will hear it first from him.

So I would take this news with a glass of salt.



> *10 February 2009*
> Fan: "Off topic--but I'm very excited to hear about a publication date from your publisher. I thought that we were going to hear it from you first? It would be great to have a confirmation."
> GRRM: "Consider this an anti-confirmation. You WILL hear it from me first. As I have said before, numerous times, believe nothing you hear from any other source."


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## LifeMaker (Oct 13, 2010)

true that. there have been many false dawns


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## abcd (Oct 13, 2010)

The best place to get updates would be GRRM's blog or
here
Link removed

He has written 100 more pages from the last update but still the number of chapters remaining is the same 

Some info for ppl who did not know already



> A Dance with Dragons takes place simultaneously alongside the events of A Feast for Crows, with ADWD focusing on the North, the Free Cities and Slaver's Bay. The timespan of ADWD will be several months longer than that of AFFC, with the first two-thirds of the book (currently 800 manuscript pages) running alongside AFFC and the last third or more extending (currently 600 manuscript pages) beyond its timespan. According to GRRM, working out the continuity issues on ADWD has been extremely complex and time-consuming.
> 
> The book is currently almost 1,500 manuscript pages in length, with more completed as drafts but not finalised. Martin has said that recent rewrites and the movement of chapters to The Winds of Winter has meant that the book should now come in at less than the 1,530 manuscript pages of A Storm of Swords.
> 
> ...




I also found an interesting blog with a guy updating his opinion per chapter -- Its pretty interesting and humorous


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## Nimander (Oct 13, 2010)

Ugh.  

This thread should be locked until the book actually DOES come out, cause every time I see it on the main page I think we've finally gotten new news, only to see that that isn't the case, which further increases my already substantial rage against GRRM.

Stop bumping this thread if you want this man to live to finish writing his series.


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## abcd (Oct 13, 2010)

The easier way of waiting is to discuss and enjoy it


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## gawsome (Oct 14, 2010)

Nimander said:


> Ugh.
> 
> This thread should be locked until the book actually DOES come out, cause every time I see it on the main page I think we've finally gotten new news, only to see that that isn't the case, which further increases my already substantial rage against GRRM.
> 
> Stop bumping this thread if you want this man to live to finish writing his series.




Haha bump.

But I had to. Huge fan of Marrtin (aside from his piss poor output - though as a writer myself, I can sympathise - I have a novel 2/3rds complete and I can not for the life of me write the ending...initial ideas no longer fit with my intent and the central themes....it can be damned tricky).

Anyway, ramble aside, I greatly enjoyed how these books started out as a medieval saga of sorts; straight up battle and political intrigue with just a hint of the supernatural lurking around. And he hasn't gone overboard with thes supernatural / magicky elements - which is a refreshing change I have to say.

I also relish how quickly he can turn the world / story you know on its head. Character's, even main ones, die in other books but it is often telegraphed or foreshadowed - Marrtin can drop a character and story line just like that. Which I feel ads a heavy element of realism to his creation.

I'd agree with what someone said earlier about Jon Snow being the main character. I would add that his obvious parallel is Dany - the two are flip sides to the same coin and both will be essential in events to come.

I'd add Tyrion as a tertiary third main character - and, in my opinion, by the richest and most developed in the saga.

Now if only he'd publish a god damned book so I can enjoy the onoly reasonable excuse I have for having a mutilated dwarf wank


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## abcd (Oct 19, 2010)

Has someone read  before... I heard it was similar to GRRM's way of writing (and different at the same time)


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## Nimander (Oct 19, 2010)

Acacia.

Gah.  That writing style is so...dry.  

For some reason, I liked the book the first time I read it.  But on my reread, I found it fairly uninspiring overall, and that opinion carried over to the sequel as well.  I think I might've had a good impression of the book because of the unorthodox approach to some of the characters.  But like I said above, on the reread these didn't seem enough to hold up the story as a whole.

As for similarities between Durham(?) and Martin?  I don't see it personally.

/my two cents


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## abcd (Oct 19, 2010)

Ahh that's disappointing  I was looking forward to it


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## masamune1 (Oct 19, 2010)

The world is partriarchal because it's supposed to be a medieval fantasy. It's based primarily on the War of the Roses and other events from the real history of the Middle Ages. It's a deconstruction of a traditional fantasy series but it keeps in mind that such series' are based on rose-tinted looks at medieval life. Hence he's trying to be as true to real history asmuch as telling his own story allows. It's the same reason he goes into a lot of detail about the myth of the chivalorous Knight- they existed, but the Knight who was a rotten bastard was far more common.

So he's not being sexist or patriarchal; he's just not letting modern values affect his storytelling to that degree. It's a theme in the story that women are treated differently for no good reason, and it deals with the implications of such- it's the reason Cersei is such a resentful embittered witch, because she knows she could have been as fierce as any man, but she was denied the chance because she was a women. There are plenty of strong female characters in the story, like Arya and Daenary's (though the latter is pretty needy). 

The Starks are the collective main characters of the story; that's why so much bad stuff happens to them. Characters die at odd points in the books  because Martin is trying to be a little less predictable, which is also why there is no clear hero or villain. 

That said, I don't think _ASoIaF_ is quite as Gray and Gray as everyone seems to be making out- all characters have their good and bad parts, but it's pretty clear to me that there are some characters who are much more good and moral than others. In broad terms the Starks are still the good guys, despite the atrocities commited by so,e of their men; the Lannisters are still the bad guys, despite having some skill at winning hearts and minds. Characters like Jon and Tyrion are fairly heroic, while the likes of Joffrey and Gregor Clegane are absolute monsters. Littlefinger is most definitely an archvillain through and through.

And lets not forget about the Others, who though balanced out by a scary and ruthless force for "good" in the Lord of Light are still a pretty clear shoe-in for the main villains of the story. As the series moves on they will probaly play a bigger and bigger role, and they will serve as the bad guys. The series is only halfway done after all, so that they have'nt shown up as much as they might is no big deal in the grand scheme of things.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 20, 2010)

I heard that there was evidence of Joffrey sexually abusing his siblings, Myrcella and Tommen, but I cannot recall any such thing in the books. Where was that possibility mentioned?

How is it that Varys was able to learn secrets and sneak about so well? Does he have supernatural powers, or is he simply supremely skilled? How was it that Littlefinger learned of 
*Spoiler*: __ 



the Tyrell's plan to marry Sansa to Willas, 


when they were being so careful to not let anyone learn of it? I do not recall that mystery ever being answered. Even more incredible, how did Littlefinger learn of such a plot when Varys was not able to? Does this mean that he is even more skilled than is Varys at learning secrets?

Also, how likely is it that
*Spoiler*: __ 



Littlefinger's plan to marry Sansa to Harold Hardyng and help her reclaim Winterfell will actually succeed?


I have come to expect the characters in this series to not be successful in their endeavors, but unlike many of the people in this series who believe themselves to be plotters and schemers, Littlefinger actually is competent and knows how to operate wisely, so I cannot imagine a scheme of his failing.

Masamune: do not forget about Brienne; she also is a strong female character, in my mind.


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## Nodonn (Oct 20, 2010)

> How is it that Varys was able to learn secrets and sneak about so well? Does he have supernatural powers, or is he simply supremely skilled? How was it that Littlefinger learned of



I seem to remember someone speculating that he's using children who hide in those tiny spaces between the walls.


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## abcd (Oct 26, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I heard that there was evidence of Joffrey sexually abusing his siblings, Myrcella and Tommen, but I cannot recall any such thing in the books. Where was that possibility mentioned?



I have not heard of this at all ... It might have been implied somewhere and I might have missed it but i have not read any theory based on such claims


> How is it that Varys was able to learn secrets and sneak about so well? Does he have supernatural powers, or is he simply supremely skilled? How was it that Littlefinger learned of
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Varys is from Targaryens time and he knows of many secret passages.

Little finger was paying the drunk knight to whom Sansa told everything remember? ...


> Also, how likely is it that
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I think this scheme will fail because Sansa will kill Little finger using his own game.


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## Blackfish (Oct 26, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> While I am talking about the Stark Family, how likely is it that Benjen Stark may actually be alive? I know that in this series, most people who die remain dead, but his body was never found, and he had such a minor role, I cannot imagine that Martin would waste a character. If anyone wishes to mention Viserys Targayren, I do believe that Martin could have given him more screentime and character development before killing him, but Martin built his character retroactively, revealing more about his background and personality after he had died. I found this to be rather unusual, but it was nevertheless effective at providing eh audience with more information about Viserys. However, Benjen has not had this treatment; he has had no back story or character development, and he was around for only one or two chapters of the first book, so I really hope that Martin has not forgotten about him.


I always thought Benjen Stark's role in the story was simply to emphasise House Stark's ties to the Night Watch, as well as being a precedent for Jon Snow.



DemonDragonJ said:


> I wish to say is that I dislike how there is no clear hero or villain in this series. I understand that that is again an aspect of Martin's world, that the characters be more gray than black or white, but it would be nice for there to be _one_ character who is clearly a hero and _one_ character who is clearly a villain, for that would make it easier for me to support such a character. I suppose that Jon Snow is the closest that the series has to a traditional hero, but there is no real villain in this series, which makes it extremely difficult for me to support and cheer for any character or faction, because if one wins, another must lose.


This is actually my favourite aspect about ASoIaF as it makes me feel that I am a spectator of historical events unfolding, which enhances the immersion factor imo.

It also never ceases to amaze me how GRRM can make me root for completely different, often opposing factions, depending on who's POV he's writing at the moment. The best example is probably Theon, his chapters were some of my favourite ones even though I don't like the Ironborn in general and

*Spoiler*: __ 



he's actually an enemy of the protagonist Starks.






DemonDragonJ said:


> And while I am on that subject, why is it that
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Firstly I think his death goes hand in hand with the fall of the northern faction (Umbers, Mormonts, Karstarks.. etc) - you could say he was the personification of Stark military power. The arcs of the other Stark kids are much more personal than Robb's.

Secondly I think it also goes with one of the themes of the books, which is that diplomacy wins wars surer than swords. He won every battle against the Lannisters but in the end was undone by diplomatic gaffes and bad luck. There's a parallel with Dareon the Young Dragon here.

Thirdly, (other than young Rickon) he is the only Stark sibling without a POV chapter.






DemonDragonJ said:


> How likely is it that
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



The way I see it, they lost use of their limbs but gained something else, just as Dany loses Drogo but gains her independence and her dragons. Bran's inability to walk forced him to compensate by becoming a better warg than any of the other Starks - and there is one part in ASoS where he briefly enters Summer to smell a room, or where he briefly enters Hodor to quiet him (? don't recall) which suggests to me that Bran in the future may be able to assume the skins of able-bodied warriors to fight, making him potentially the most powerful of the Stark kids. And Jaime's maiming forced him to reevaluate his live-to-fight mentality, and iirc at the end of AFfC (ASoS?) it is heavily implied that he resolves to be a good Lord Commander.





Just my two cents.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 27, 2010)

abcd said:


> Little finger was paying the drunk knight to whom Sansa told everything remember? ...



Yes, I did forget about that.



abcd said:


> I think this scheme will fail because Sansa will kill Little finger using his own game.



That would be _awesome,_ in my mind, if Sansa learned everything that Littlefinger knew, and then used it against him to secure her own position. I can imagine Littlefinger saying "you have learned well, my child," or something similar to that, as Sansa condemns him to his fate.

What might become of Tommen and Myrcella? They are very defenseless currently, especially with 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Cersei imprisoned,


so I hope that nothing bad happens to them, but unfortunately for them, George R.R. Martin is not known for being merciful to his characters.

Also, on the subject of Cersei, does anyone find 
*Spoiler*: __ 



the prophecy that she heard as an adolescent


 to be rather a sudden move by Martin: i.e., an "asspull?" There was no foreshadowing for it, and the fact that he did not mention such a detail until the _fourth book of the series_ makes it seem to be a rather poor attempt at developing Cersei's backstory; I did not like the idea that 
*Spoiler*: __ 



her future was foretold by a seer, except for the part where "each of her children would be crowned a monarch, and all three of them would die before she (Cersei) did."


 I really hope that that does not happen, although it certainly seems as if it might; Joffrey was a monster, and Cersei is very villanous herself, but 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I do feel sympathy for Cersei at the loss of her son; that is one similarity that she has to Catelyn, in that area. Both of them have experienced the loss of their children.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 27, 2010)

not littlefinger.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 28, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> not littlefinger.



What does that mean? Is your post a response to another post?


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## Blue (Oct 28, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I started reading this series at the encouragement of a friend, and I have been enjoying the series very much. I rather dislike the frequent vulgar language, but apart from that, it is very intriguing.


I am curious as to why you find vulgar language as part of a character's development and persona distasteful. That must grow awfully tiring.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 28, 2010)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> I am curious as to why you find vulgar language as part of a character's development and persona distasteful. That must grow awfully tiring.



I believe that the use of vulgar language makes a person appear to be crude and unsophisticated, at least in my view and while I understand that that is obviously a part of many characters' personalities, I am entitled to have my own opinion, am I not?

And why would that preference of mine become tiring?


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## Blue (Oct 28, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I believe that the use of vulgar language makes a person appear to be crude and unsophisticated


Well. Yeah. As you observed, that is wholly the point. If crude language changes your disposition towards a character, then it is doing its job in spades.



> I am entitled to have my own opinion, am I not?


Everybody gets one.

I was just curious as to your reasoning, if any.


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## abcd (Oct 29, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I rather dislike how Martin is so detailed regarding urination and defecation, or more accurately, because he portrays it in an unappealing manner (as opposed to an erotic manner), but is that simply another aspect of his writing style?
> 
> Also, while I am discussing the subject of body functions, I have noticed a number of interesting things in this series about them: first, Cersei had a physician examine Margaery to see if she (Margaery) was still a virgin. Second, Cersei wished to see the bedsheets from Margaery's wedding night to Renly, to know if they consummated their marriage. Third, Sansa attempted to burn her own bedsheets after experiencing her first menstrual period, so that Cersei would not learn of it. Fourth, whenever two people are married, the guests at their wedding will often disrobe them and even shout ribald comments while the couple consummates their marriage*. To the best of my knowledge, none of those practices exist in modern western societies,* so I wish to ask: do people in the world of _A Song of Ice and Fire_ have any privacy at all regarding their reproductive functions and/or sexual activities?



This is not meant to depict a modern western society


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 29, 2010)

abcd said:


> This is not meant to depict a modern western society



So, are you saying that such practices were fairly common in medieval Europe?


----------



## abcd (Oct 29, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> So, are you saying that such practices were fairly common in medieval Europe?



Such practices are fairly common in Westros.

This speaks volumes about tradition and culture in a society and how morally subjective they are.


----------



## abcd (Oct 29, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, that makes sense, but what I meant to ask was this: do the people of Westeros believe that a woman's reproductive cycle, and whether or not she is still a virgin, should be known by everyone? And do they have any concept of privacy, regarding the first sexual act after marriage?



tbh female puberty is celebrated as a ritual in some parts of the world (ours). 

You speak of Westros and privacy when u did not find the Khals culture wierd?.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Oct 29, 2010)

abcd said:


> tbh female puberty is celebrated as a ritual in some parts of the world (ours).
> 
> You speak of Westros and privacy when u did not find the Khals culture wierd?.



The culture of the _Dothraki_ was clearly not modeled after European culture, as was Westerosi culture, so I knew immediately to not expect it to be too similar to what was familiar to me.

I have lived in the United States for my entire life, and never have I ever seen a girl's onset of puberty celebrated as a great ritual, apart from normal birthday parties. Most women whom I encounter do not usually discuss their reproductive cycles with simply anyone; I do not know how that societal standard evolved, but I accept it as normal, and that is why I found the beliefs of the Westerosi people in _ASoIaF_ to be unusual.

Why did Arya travel across the ocean to Braavos? What can she accomplish there? I wish that she had remained in Westeros, so that she could help to rebuild House Stark, but I suppose that she is safer in Braavos, far away from the reach and influence of the Lannisters. I personally believe that it would be very awesome if she somehow allied herself with Daenerys, as they both dislike the Lannisters and their allies. What does everyone else here believe may happen to Arya eventually?


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm pretty sure most of the stuff you mentioned was political. It was less a culture thingand more to do with things like whether you're good for having kids (to secure bloodines), whether you have reached puberty (so the King can have his way with you), and stuff liket that. It might have been practiced in the real medieval world but, like the idea of marrying off kids in general, it was likely a practice limited to the aristocracy.

As for language, that too might be Martin just deconstructing the myths of the old world, making them appear fouler by giving them potty mouths. Compared to what they _really_ said to one another they are actually pretty tame.


----------



## abcd (Oct 29, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> The culture of the _Dothraki_ was clearly not modeled after European culture, as was Westerosi culture, so I knew immediately to not expect it to be too similar to what was familiar to me.
> 
> I have lived in the United States for my entire life, and never have I ever seen a girl's onset of puberty celebrated as a great ritual, apart from normal birthday parties. Most women whom I encounter do not usually discuss their reproductive cycles with simply anyone; I do not know how that societal standard evolved, but I accept it as normal, and that is why I found the beliefs of the Westerosi people in _ASoIaF_ to be unusual.
> 
> Why did Arya travel across the ocean to Braavos? What can she accomplish there? I wish that she had remained in Westeros, so that she could help to rebuild House Stark, but I suppose that she is safer in Braavos, far away from the reach and influence of the Lannisters. I personally believe that it would be very awesome if she somehow allied herself with Daenerys, as they both dislike the Lannisters and their allies. What does everyone else here believe may happen to Arya eventually?



. 

Arya has to travel to bravos to become a ninja i guess ... I hope she becomes one instead of changing her path. I think she will be meeting Daenerys to become her hand or kill her/


----------



## Nae'blis (Oct 29, 2010)

^ Daenerys is assassinated, and the one dragon turns into Viserys


----------



## Yakuza (Oct 29, 2010)

Frodo destroy the ring, that's how it ends.


----------



## Darth (Nov 12, 2010)

I finally finished the last book and I thoroughly enjoyed the series. 

Also, I liked the comment Martin left at the end of the book stating that he hoped to release the next one late 05. 



So much for that.

On the subject of Benjen Stark. Anyone think he might be Coldhands?


----------



## Spartacus (Nov 12, 2010)

Darth said:


> On the subject of Benjen Stark. Anyone think he might be Coldhands?



Well, that's certainly a theory that's been aired a couple of times, and one with some credit to it, since Benjens disappearance have never been explained.

But really, while it certainly would be a nice little surprise, it's what most readers expect it to be, and as such, Martin might just decide to not let it be Benjen.

Really, it could be anyone, only way we'll know is when we get some Bran POV's where they meet.


----------



## Havoc (Nov 12, 2010)

I just wish this mother phucker would finish his next book already.


----------



## Felix (Nov 22, 2010)

THE BOOK HAS BEEN FINISHED
NOT

But I bring new pictures from the series


----------



## Nightfall (Nov 24, 2010)

Oh HBO I love you all...

There was some Q&A with him recently where he hinted at a possible eight book, I don't have the link now.. I'll try to get it later. But if he's planning on adding another volume it doesn't exactly sound like good news to me...


----------



## KidTony (Nov 27, 2010)

^Yeah, heard that too.

And those pics look AWESOME. Like REALLY AWESOME. I'm so frigging PUMPED for this.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Nov 27, 2010)

I noticed that Tommen, the youngest child of Cersei and Jaime (do I need to cover that fact with a spoiler tag? It should be well-known by now, especially considering that that information is revealed in the first book, and actually quite early)
*Spoiler*: __ 



was not terribly bothered by the fact that his brother Joffrey died, and in a very heinous manner. Where was Tommen when that occurred, and why does he not seem to have given Joffrey a second thought? Did Joffrey's abusive attitude toward Tommen cause Tommen to not care about what fate befell Joffrey?


Also, on that subject, was anyone else displeased that
*Spoiler*: __ 



Eddard Stark, with his final breath, accepted Joffrey as the rightful king? I found that to be terribly out-of-character for him, because he was always dedicated to revealing the truth, even if that truth upset other people. I was sincerely hoping that with his final breath, he would renounce Joffrey and reveal the information that he had learned.


As for Coldhands, I, also, am hoping that he is actually a character who has already been seen, and preferably Benjen Stark, as I felt that Benjen had too little screentime, even in such a dark and pessimistic series as this one.


----------



## KidTony (Nov 28, 2010)

why do you write so weird and formal?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Nov 28, 2010)

KidTony said:


> why do you write so weird and formal?



Why do so many users here keep asking me or making comments about my writing style? I find such actions to be very annoying; that is simply how I write.


----------



## KidTony (Nov 29, 2010)

i find your writing style very annoying, sorry.


----------



## Spartacus (Nov 29, 2010)

That's just the way he writes, it's allright, it's different, but also stands out. Makes me remember him.

I remember that you got offended by the mexican bleach thread...

You're allright, though internet white knight you are.

This is getting off topic...MORE EXCITEMENT ABOUT THE NEXT BOOK! WHEN IS IT COMING OUT!


----------



## Felix (Nov 29, 2010)

A new teaser for the series is up in the HBO site
I came buckets with the execution scene. It's so close to what I imagined


----------



## LifeMaker (Nov 29, 2010)

well, i know for a fact he isn't done yet... 

Well these five chapters are taking a while, as usual. i'm used to it by now 

as for the teaser stuff, its looking like the series is coming together _ very _ nicely!


----------



## KidTony (Nov 29, 2010)

Yeah, great teaser. I'm going to have to get used to things not happening the way i imagined them. I expect great things from this series. I'm a at work so i could only watch it once and probably missed a lot of the detail. Like for example, who was the guy who took out his sword in front all those armed men? I'm talking about the scene before the show Tyrian being arrested at the inn. Also, is that voice that is talking while the show Daenerys Mirri Maz Durr? I'll definitely have to see this again. Can't wait for next week's upcoming behind the scenes special.


----------



## masamune1 (Nov 29, 2010)

You all say he isn't done, or close to done. What would you do if he _is_ done, but wants to wait till the TV series airs to announce it? Would you rage (rage more than normal?)


----------



## KidTony (Nov 29, 2010)

he doesn't need the publicity to sell. The Hype for this book is massive already, his core audience will buy as soon as the book is announced. I know i sure as hell will.


----------



## Mori` (Nov 30, 2010)

I will no longer buy it on release, I shall wait for paperback and a cheaper version.


----------



## masamune1 (Nov 30, 2010)

KidTony said:


> he doesn't need the publicity to sell. The Hype for this book is massive already, his core audience will buy as soon as the book is announced. I know i sure as hell will.



Publicity? Who said anything about publicity?


----------



## Blue (Nov 30, 2010)

Moridin said:


> I will no longer buy it on release, I shall wait for paperback and a cheaper version.



I shall download it to my kindle immediately for paperback price


----------



## KidTony (Nov 30, 2010)

I'm hardcore ASOIAF fan. I own all hardcovers, as well as all audiobooks, the artbook, calendar, and a couple of hundred LCG cards that i collect for the artwork.

As soon as ADWD is released i will preorder it as well as the audiobook.


----------



## martryn (Nov 30, 2010)

> I shall download it to my kindle immediately for paperback price



KnK, a Kindle?  I'm disappointed.  If I were still in love with you, I would be slightly less in love with you.


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 30, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what did you expect? Ned Stark is a tool.

edit: Martin is published by Bantam?  did not know that.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Dec 1, 2010)

Why did Jaime eventually lose his attraction to Cersei? I read the books thoroughly, but I cannot understand why he no longer found her attractive despite having been strongly attracted  to her before? His change seems to be related to his losing his hand and him reconsidering his general attitude toward life, but how did that cause an apparently unrelated change in his character?

Did anyone notice how Lord Tywin was domineering toward, and thus had tension with, _all three of his children,_ despite them being grown adults? He was a very nasty man, and thus I was very glad when
*Spoiler*: __ 



Tyrion killed him at the end of the third book.


Was anyone else very glad when that happened?


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 2, 2010)

Who the fuck knows? We all read these books back in the 19th century.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Dec 2, 2010)

Mashed Potato said:


> Who the fuck knows? We all read these books back in the 19th century.



These books did not exist in the Nineteenth Century; in fact, the author was not even born in the Nineteenth Century, so if you have nothing meaningful to contribute to this discussion, I suggest that you do not post in this thread, at all.


----------



## LifeMaker (Dec 2, 2010)

I was _ very _ glad it happened. And the line at the end was just awesome, a nice resolution for the jokes of the prior books.

as for Jaime's attitude change it's partially Cersei being abominable, and mostly what Tyrion said to him playing on his mind, coupled with as you say his loss of hand which in turn made him question his martial prowess and cersei, the two things that were everything to him


----------



## Nodonn (Dec 4, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> These books did not exist in the Nineteenth Century; in fact, the author was not even born in the Nineteenth Century, so if you have nothing meaningful to contribute to this discussion, I suggest that you do not post in this thread, at all.





Will you please stop being a fucking robot DDJ?


----------



## Grrblt (Dec 4, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> These books did not exist in the Nineteenth Century; in fact, the author was not even born in the Nineteenth Century, so if you have nothing meaningful to contribute to this discussion, I suggest that you do not post in this thread, at all.



Why don't you take your own advice here?


----------



## Spartacus (Dec 4, 2010)

Grrblt said:


> Why don't you take your own advice here?



Oooooooh, buuuuurnnnnnnn!


----------



## Pineapples (Dec 5, 2010)

Oh, umm incase some people missed it, HBO showed a 10 minute behind the scenes. The 10 minute video is hosted in this site (and possibly youtube but not sure):


  

Winter can't come soon enough


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 6, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> These books did not exist in the Nineteenth Century; in fact, the author was not even born in the Nineteenth Century, so if you have nothing meaningful to contribute to this discussion, I suggest that you do not post in this thread, at all.


Clearly it is you who are mistaken. GRRM was born to Archibald and Simona Martin, both poets of some renown, on a crisp winter day, Dec 29, 1839. The man himself released A Game of Thrones on that tragic year, 1891. We all remember that being the year the Titanic sank after being torpedoed by Nazi U-boat privateers. Releasing the second and third with a year break between each, then 5 to complete the Feast. We've been waiting, idly and with pangs of remorse of our lost loved ones, for over a century for this series to continue.

If you're not willing to discuss these books from a position of reality, I must demand that you depart from the premises immediately.


----------



## KidTony (Dec 6, 2010)

man that was amazing!!! i can't even tell you how frigging hyped i am.


----------



## Dionysus (Dec 7, 2010)

Now pray they don't cancel it after 1 or 2 seasons.


----------



## Blue (Dec 7, 2010)

Dionysus said:


> Now pray they don't cancel it after 1 or 2 seasons.



All good things must (prematurely) end.


----------



## martryn (Dec 7, 2010)

> Now pray they don't cancel it after 1 or 2 seasons.



It's HBO.  All popular, high production value HBO series end in two seasons.  A third season would indeed be a miracle.


----------



## Mori` (Dec 7, 2010)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> All good things must (prematurely) end.



isoiaf will never actually end ><


----------



## Felix (Dec 7, 2010)

You meant, it will never be finished


----------



## KidTony (Dec 7, 2010)

Hopefully the producers realize that the third book is the best in the series and as such would be the best season to produce. I never watched rome so don't know if there were a lot of high scale battles that were too expensive to produce, but i view AGOT like the Tudors which is more focused on character interaction than anything else. Yeah, being an epic scale type series it will be expensive, but ASOIF's bread and butter aren't its action sequences or special effect heavy scenes, but more the character interactions, so i have hope that it can remain close to is budget.


----------



## martryn (Dec 7, 2010)

> You meant, it will never be finished



Yeah, that.  They need to release the DVDs quicker.  Those would definitely help pay for another season. 



> I never watched rome so don't know if there were a lot of high scale battles that were too expensive to produce



Not really, but the sets were expensive, and looking at A Song of Ice and Fire, those sets are going to be just as expensive if not more so.


----------



## Felix (Dec 8, 2010)

As anyone noticed a decrease in the frequency of his Blog posts?
Between that and his editor saying only 5 chapters left (1 month ago) I'm really thinking he might be doing some work.

I mean, he must be feeling motivated since the series is shaping up to be something good.

Or so I hope


----------



## LifeMaker (Dec 8, 2010)

Knowing our friend George he's probably scrapped five of his previous chapters and rewriting them


----------



## Nodonn (Dec 8, 2010)

Felix said:


> As anyone noticed a decrease in the frequency of his Blog posts?
> Between that and his editor saying only 5 chapters left (1 month ago) I'm really thinking he might be doing some work.
> 
> I mean, he must be feeling motivated since the series is shaping up to be something good.
> ...



Or he might've become so lazy that he can't even be arsed to write his blog anymore.


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 8, 2010)

Difference is Rome didn't have a fanbase before it came out, this does. This has a good chance of continuing.

And the next book will come out around the time the series comes out. Good marketing plan.


----------



## Felix (Dec 9, 2010)

LifeMaker said:


> Knowing our friend George he's probably scrapped five of his previous chapters and rewriting them



He sure does love rewriting chapters


----------



## Darth (Dec 11, 2010)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why did Jaime eventually lose his attraction to Cersei? I read the books thoroughly, but I cannot understand why he no longer found her attractive despite having been strongly attracted  to her before? His change seems to be related to his losing his hand and him reconsidering his general attitude toward life, but how did that cause an apparently unrelated change in his character?
> 
> Did anyone notice how Lord Tywin was domineering toward, and thus had tension with, _all three of his children,_ despite them being grown adults? He was a very nasty man, and thus I was very glad when
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Jaime was constantly rethinking the line Tyrion drilled into his mind, he suffered the loss of his hand, and thus thought about his life and duties more clearly, and Cersei was a bitch. He was bound to see through her eventually.

Tywin was a douche. Although I can't say I'm glad he was killed. He was a good character to read about. 



LifeMaker said:


> I was _ very _ glad it happened. And the line at the end was just awesome, a nice resolution for the jokes of the prior books.
> 
> as for Jaime's attitude change it's partially Cersei being abominable, and mostly what Tyrion said to him playing on his mind, coupled with as you say his loss of hand which in turn made him question his martial prowess and cersei, the two things that were everything to him


LifeMaker beat me to it. ;p


Grrblt said:


> Why don't you take your own advice here?


Go away Grbl. 


Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> All good things must (prematurely) end.


You too. 


martryn said:


> Yeah, that.  They need to release the DVDs quicker.  Those would definitely help pay for another season.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, but the sets were expensive, and looking at A Song of Ice and Fire, those sets are going to be just as expensive if not more so.



Expensive perhaps, but HBO should have learned their lesson by now, and they should be able to fund it. Especially since there is already quite a large existing fanbase.


----------



## LifeMaker (Dec 17, 2010)

looks like i was right. (No surprise) 

he may have finished a chapter, but he's also had to rewrite one too 

Oh well, at least the HBO series has finished filming


----------



## KidTony (Dec 17, 2010)

Tower of the hand did a top 30 character poll, a bunch of memebers voted and today it finished.

Here's the top 10

1-Tyrion
2-Jon
3-Arya
4-Sandor
5-Jaime
6-Danny
7-Ned
8-Davos
9-Bran
10-Littlefinger

My own list is actually very similar, just in a bit of a different order. I got

1-Tyrion
2-Jon
3-Jaime
4-Danny
5-Ned
6-Sandor
7-Arya
8-Bran
9-Davos
10-Sansa (yes, i actually like her)
11-Sam (he's interchangable with Sansa)

EDIT: I'm at work and TOH doesn't load up for some reason so i can't double check, but now i don't remeber if it was actually Jaime or Sandor who was 4th. I actuall think Sandor was 5th, and Jaime 4th...

Don't remeber the rest but a bunch of who you would expect made it in. Cersei, Tywin, Cat, Robb, Varys, Sam, Master Amon, Robert and Stannis, Shae, Duncan the tall, Barristan Selmy, Bronn, Oberyn, The Blackfish, Brienne and Rhaegar etc

A surprise was that Arthur Dayne made it. A couple characters that i expected to make it missed it thugh, namely Theon, Mance, Melissandre, Sir Loras and Jorah.


----------



## LifeMaker (Dec 17, 2010)

yeah that's not a bad list. Tyrion, Davos and Sandor Clegane have to be up the top of mine, but the lack of love for Varys is sad


----------



## Coteaz (Dec 30, 2010)

Finally picked up A Game of Thrones last night. 

Spent all of today reading it, I literally can't put it down. For once, the "rave reviews" weren't exaggerating.


----------



## KidTony (Dec 31, 2010)

^And the books keep getting better. Storm of Swords is Amazing. Clash of Kings is just as Good as AGOT. The only one that falls off a bit is Feast, but even then it's still a great read, just not as good as the first three imo.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 1, 2011)

How is Ser Gregor not on that list?


----------



## Coteaz (Jan 2, 2011)

Finished Game of Thrones Saturday afternoon, and now I have to rush my ass out to Barnes & Noble in the morning to get the others. 

I've read countless novels over the years and none of them enthralled me like this.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jan 2, 2011)

Putin would approve.


----------



## Serp (Jan 3, 2011)

A shameless attempt to get attention. Guys I am planning an RP based on Asofai. I loved the interactions in the books between the characters and hoped to bring it to the RP section. For the games sake it is a different world, different rules and eveything. But I hope to bring the same feel that the books had to my game. If anyone could offer a hand in advice and maybe even have a go at playing it I would appreciate it gladly.

learn spanish

And for the sake of the thread.

My favourite Characters are, in no particular order.

Mormonts Raven
Dany
Shaggydog
Tyrion
Arya
Varys


----------



## KidTony (Jan 4, 2011)

dude, it's A song of ice and fire, you got fire and ice reversed.


----------



## Youjinbou (Jan 11, 2011)

Just finished the last book, and I gotta say thank goodness this is just the last book _released_, not the last _in the series_ - what a disappointment would that be. After amazing Storm of Swords we have a completely pointless 1000 pages about characters doing completely nothing useful and everything useless in Feast for Crows. Stuff just happens but nothing is going on.

It's funny how Martin wrote at the very end, that this supposedly should have been a single book together with Dance with Dragons, but he separated them in two because of all the material... yeah, right. There's no material what so ever in the Feast for Crows, you can put it all in 300 pages - everything else is just patting. He just wanted another book in the series.

It seems all the good stuff is waiting in Dance with Dragons, so I'm hyped for that as never.


----------



## LifeMaker (Jan 11, 2011)

6Hokage said:


> Just finished the last book, and I gotta say thank goodness this is just the last book _released_, not the last _in the series_ - what a disappointment would that be. After amazing Storm of Swords we have a completely pointless 1000 pages about characters doing completely nothing useful and everything useless in Feast for Crows. Stuff just happens but nothing is going on.
> 
> It's funny how Martin wrote at the very end, that this supposedly should have been a single book together with Dance with Dragons, but he separated them in two because of all the material... yeah, right. There's no material what so ever in the Feast for Crows, you can put it all in 300 pages - everything else is just patting. He just wanted another book in the series.
> 
> It seems all the good stuff is waiting in Dance with Dragons, so I'm hyped for that as never.



I feel your pain, but as Dance with Dragons is mostly the other half to Feast for Crows...

i mean, i didn't find AffC bad in any way, it just was no Storm Of Swords...

well, i'm sure Dance will be worth the rather epic wait for it... hopefully


----------



## Serp (Jan 11, 2011)

I know I got the name reversed Ive always called it Fire and Ice and its a bad habit that stuck.


----------



## Youjinbou (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm not saying it's bad, not at all, it's a great written book like all the others - it's just pointless. Characters _literally_ go to one place, find or learn completely nothing and then return to where they started - and that takes like 200 pages.

There should be a recommendation in the beginning: "if you don't have a lot of free time, just read the first and the last chapters for every characters, you'll miss nothing".


----------



## Taleran (Jan 11, 2011)

One of my friends will not start reading the series after I told him about the current situation with the last couple books and when he got a look at the guy. "Too old I got sucked into Wheel of Time but not again"


----------



## Detonator_Fan (Jan 11, 2011)

Can't wait for the next book.
Btw, Sansa is my favourite character


----------



## Nakor (Jan 11, 2011)

Detonator_Fan said:


> Can't wait for the next book.
> Btw, Sansa is my favourite character



I don't believe you. Why?


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 11, 2011)

Next book is never coming out.


----------



## Cyphon (Jan 12, 2011)

Youjinbou said:


> It seems all the good stuff is waiting in Dance with Dragons, so I'm hyped for that as never.



I wouldn't get too hyped. I am pretty sure it is just supposed to be what all of the other characters were doing during Feast of Crows. 



Detonator_Fan said:


> Can't wait for the next book.
> Btw, Sansa is my favourite character



Sansa is nobodies favorite character.


Also what LY said.


----------



## Youjinbou (Jan 12, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I wouldn't get too hyped. I am pretty sure it is just supposed to be what all of the other characters were doing during Feast of Crows.



Well yes - that's the point of the series. To watch what lead characters are doing. Not some princess from Dorne who I don't give two fucks about whether she lives or dies, or fugly man woman.


----------



## LifeMaker (Jan 12, 2011)

Youjinbou said:


> Well yes - that's the point of the series. To watch what lead characters are doing. Not some princess from Dorne who I don't give two fucks about whether she lives or dies, or fugly man woman.



Alas i hear there's still quite a bit of Dorne featuring in A Dance with Dragons


----------



## KidTony (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm i the only one that liked Dorne and the Iron Islands?


----------



## Youjinbou (Jan 12, 2011)

Could be. I honestly couldn't bring myself to read the book for almost a week, knowing that I have to read through Iron Island... that was terrible. I think I actually liked Dorne at least somewhat - and it didn't open the book.


----------



## Nakor (Jan 12, 2011)

Youjinbou said:


> Could be. I honestly couldn't bring myself to read the book for almost a week, knowing that I have to read through Iron Island... that was terrible. I think I actually liked Dorne at least somewhat - and it didn't open the book.



I liked Dorne but not the Iron Islands.


----------



## martryn (Jan 12, 2011)

I hated the Iron Islands shit.  Loved Dorne, though.  Favorite part of that book, to me.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2011)

I liked the Iron Islands, was a little eh on Dorne.


----------



## Dionysus (Jan 13, 2011)

Hm. On a scale of 0 to 100, how close to death do you think GRRM was with that penis infection of his? I'll set 0 as dead in the true hit point style.


----------



## The Imp (Jan 14, 2011)

Yeah I enjoyed the Iron Islands mostly because of Crow's Eye and his other brother. I didn't really like the Dorne chapters till the end when we find out what they're really plotting.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 14, 2011)

Crow's Eye will probably be a major player later in the books or at least I hope he will be. Screw Asha and the rest of that boring bloodline, aside from Theon.

Dorne at least had that incident, I wonder how that will be dealt with.

Aside from that I think a lot of the stuff with Brienne was tiresome, until she met Lady Stoneheart. I hope her POV is retired soon.

The character development Jaime received in A feast, was good enough for me to enjoy the book a lot though.


----------



## Detonator_Fan (Jan 15, 2011)

Nakor said:


> I don't believe you. Why?



How can I explain? I just like Sansa.

Sure, her infatuation with Joffrey in the first book was stupid and at that time she was as much of an idealist as her father. 

But she is the character that grew up the most during the books. Her evolution was very interesting and right now she just lost her main weakness (her idealism). And she still is a good person.


ps. Good thing this is a novel. At least no one can say that the only reason I like her is that she is one of the prettiest persons in ASOIF.


----------



## martryn (Jan 15, 2011)

I agree.  I really like Salsa as well.  She's grown a lot and her chapters are extremely interesting,  especially considering the other chapters.  She's a lot less stupid and idealistic than y
Arya ended up being.  Arya seems to to have forgotten how fragile and vulnerable little girls can be.


----------



## KidTony (Jan 16, 2011)

yeah, Salsa is delicious, specially on corn chips and nachos.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2011)

I've always feared Sansa is going to end up in a situation similar to Daenerys with Drogo somewhere down the line. Especially now that she's with Littflefinger..


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## KidTony (Jan 17, 2011)

i got the feeling littlefinger is going to make sansa into the best game player yet, and she's going to turn on littlefinger at the end and get the best of him.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jan 17, 2011)

Link removed


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## Pineapples (Jan 17, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Link removed



Wicked.

April 17, you have been MARKED.


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## Detonator_Fan (Jan 17, 2011)

martryn said:


> I agree.  I really like Salsa as well.  She's grown a lot and her chapters are extremely interesting,  especially considering the other chapters.  She's a lot less stupid and idealistic than y
> Arya ended up being.  Arya seems to to have forgotten how fragile and vulnerable little girls can be.



Yeah, Sansa is awesome



KidTony said:


> i got the feeling littlefinger is going to make sansa into the best game player yet, and she's going to turn on littlefinger at the end and get the best of him.



I hope so too.
The one thing I hope is for the one to kill Roose Bolton to be a Stark. No matter who


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## KidTony (Jan 17, 2011)

Knowing Martin, Roose bolton might live, but i think not. I think a stark is going to end up killing him/plotting his death. Be it Arya or Sansa i hope one of them does him in. I do think Sansa might be the one who ends up rebuilding the starks into what they used to be though.


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## Cyphon (Jan 17, 2011)

Arya was always one of my favorites. She handled business a lot and was always around other characters/events I liked.


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## Extasee (Jan 17, 2011)

Well I kinda have to read it now, you've gotten me interested.


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## martryn (Jan 17, 2011)

Last time I'm going to try to post from my phone in a coffee shop.  I can only be ridiculed for poor spelling and grammar a single time by KidTony (of all people) before enough is enough. 



> Arya was always one of my favorites. She handled business a lot and was always around other characters/events I liked.



One of the reasons I started liking a Song of Ice and Fire is because it was realistic and non-idealistic.  Bad things happen to good people.  Things played out the way you'd expect them to.  The power of good doesn't automatically prevail.  And then you have Arya, who somehow manages to be the fantasy warrior princess despite all of this.  At least Bran is a cripple.  John Snow is another example of a character I can't really get behind.  Fucker doesn't deserve to be alive given the circumstances.  And if he is alive, he certainly doesn't deserve leadership.  Robb didn't get it, and I thought his character was more interesting.  John Snow's flaw is the fact he's a bastard child.  That's his only flaw.  For a guy that's supposed to be painting a believable fantasy world where every character is a shade of gray, has flaws, and doesn't have the power of luck behind him, Martin has picked a few of his favorite characters and they all fall within the typical fantasy parameters.


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## KidTony (Jan 18, 2011)

im not ridiculing you. Just pointing out what a great food salsa is.


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## Cyphon (Jan 18, 2011)

martryn said:


> One of the reasons I started liking a Song of Ice and Fire is because it was realistic and non-idealistic.  Bad things happen to good people.  Things played out the way you'd expect them to.  The power of good doesn't automatically prevail.  And then you have Arya, who somehow manages to be the fantasy warrior princess despite all of this.  At least Bran is a cripple.  John Snow is another example of a character I can't really get behind.  Fucker doesn't deserve to be alive given the circumstances.  And if he is alive, he certainly doesn't deserve leadership.  Robb didn't get it, and I thought his character was more interesting.  John Snow's flaw is the fact he's a bastard child.  That's his only flaw.  For a guy that's supposed to be painting a believable fantasy world where every character is a shade of gray, has flaws, and doesn't have the power of luck behind him, Martin has picked a few of his favorite characters and they all fall within the typical fantasy parameters.



I know what you mean and I can sort of agree but its not like any of them had it that easy. Arya and John have to watch or hear about friends and family dying, being kidnapped etc....I mean there was still a lot of grit involved in their parts of the stories. 

Yeah they succeed, but damn, someone in these books have to at some point. 

Anyway like I said, part of what made Arya's sections good were who she was involved with and the settings she was in. If we take away her succeeding being a "flaw" she was actually a tough little girl which to me is far more appealing then the whiny, prissy little bitch Sansa was for most of the story.


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## Nightfall (Jan 18, 2011)

martryn said:


> One of the reasons I started liking a Song of Ice and Fire is because it was realistic and non-idealistic.  Bad things happen to good people.  Things played out the way you'd expect them to.  The power of good doesn't automatically prevail.  And then you have Arya, who somehow manages to be the fantasy warrior princess despite all of this.  At least Bran is a cripple.  John Snow is another example of a character I can't really get behind.  Fucker doesn't deserve to be alive given the circumstances.  And if he is alive, he certainly doesn't deserve leadership.  Robb didn't get it, and I thought his character was more interesting.  John Snow's flaw is the fact he's a bastard child.  That's his only flaw.  For a guy that's supposed to be painting a believable fantasy world where every character is a shade of gray, has flaws, and doesn't have the power of luck behind him, Martin has picked a few of his favorite characters and they all fall within the typical fantasy parameters.



I can understand the part about Jon Snow, but his story isn't over yet. I didn't particularly enjoy that he was elected Commander of the Nights Watch, with all the circumstances. I actually thought the Watch was going to collapse after Mormont died. Given Stannis(another character I hope gets a small POV sooner or later) interference. Still I hope every character keeps remaining in the danger-zone, just like Eddard and Catelyn/Stoneheart. Anything can still happen I hope. 

On second thought, has Catelyn pretty much lost her marbles at the moment? I can't imagine she's still 100% sane.


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## martryn (Jan 18, 2011)

> Anyway like I said, part of what made Arya's sections good were who she was involved with and the settings she was in. If we take away her succeeding being a "flaw" she was actually a tough little girl which to me is far more appealing then the whiny, prissy little bitch Sansa was for most of the story.



Little girls are whiny, prissy little bitches, though.


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## Cyphon (Jan 18, 2011)

martryn said:


> Little girls are whiny, prissy little bitches, though.



Which is why Arya was refreshing, IMO.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jan 18, 2011)

I don't think I dislike any character other than Cat and Sansa. They were more dull than annoying and their chapters were good if someone more interesting was in them


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## Lord Yu (Jan 18, 2011)

In the hands of Littlefinger I think Sansa could be awesome. But that's just the way he works.


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## Pintsize (Jan 19, 2011)

Finished book 2, then someone hooked me onto Battlestar Galactica and I've been cramming that because it's easier. 

Still, my fav fantasy series in print so far. Has the fifth book come out yet?


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## Cyphon (Jan 19, 2011)

No it hasn't come out yet and it may never.


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## Nightfall (Jan 19, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> I don't think I dislike any character other than Cat and Sansa. They were more dull than annoying and their chapters were good if someone more interesting was in them



I think Theon Greyjoy was worse. I mean there was always something eventful around him. But the character himself wasn't that compelling, like most of the people from the Iron islands...
Besides he was responsible for Winterfell being burned down, so yeah screw him.

I liked Sansa's time at Kings landing a lot though.


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## Serp (Jan 19, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> Finished book 2, then someone hooked me onto Battlestar Galactica and I've been cramming that because it's easier.
> 
> Still, my fav fantasy series in print so far. Has the fifth book come out yet?



Pint I just finished two as well and I'm loving it far too much 

I do dislike Cat and Sansa most times, Sansa was good with the Hound but not much else.


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## LifeMaker (Jan 20, 2011)

Anyone can be good when you add the Hound. Sandor Clegane is the man


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 20, 2011)

I dislike the fact that Catelyn came back to life but Robb remained dead. I would trade Catelyn's life for Robb's in an instant if I could, as he was a member of the younger generation and therefore had more potential for growth and influence on the storyline.

And as for Jon Snow, even if he lacks any noteworthy flaws, his life has hardly been easy; he has endured many hardships and difficulties and has come close to dying on multiple occasions, so I believe that he has earned whatever meager rewards he has currently, and I am certain that even his position as leader of the Night's Watch will be very precarious at best.

I was displeased that Jon accepted that position rather than Stannis' offer of becoming the new lord of Winterfell. While it is true that Jon should not need Stannis' approval to become a lord, I dearly wish to see House Stark rise to prominence again, yet Martin seems to be determined to prevent that from ever happening again.

I also have noticed that many characters have the same first name in this story, which I dislike, as it often makes it very difficult for me to distinguish each one from the others. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that some characters have the same first name as other characters?

Finally, this series is very dark and grim compared to many other fantasy series that I have read, and while I am enjoying its different tone, it is not my favorite series. There is nothing wrong with being more fond of a more optimistic series, such as _The Sword of Shannara_ or _The Wheel of Time,_ is there? I do not wish to be seen as being "shallow" or "unrealistic" for liking the more positive series over the negative series, such as this one, so I hope that other users here can offer me feedback on that particular subject.


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## Serp (Jan 20, 2011)

This is true, I find myself more and more skim reading Cat and Sansa, reading Bran and Jon with mild interest, gripping into Dany, Tyrion and Arya and plowing through Davos and Theon. :/


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## The Pink Ninja (Jan 20, 2011)

Nightfall said:


> I think Theon Greyjoy was worse. I mean there was always something eventful around him. But the character himself wasn't that compelling, like most of the people from the Iron islands...
> Besides he was responsible for Winterfell being burned down, so yeah screw him.
> 
> I liked Sansa's time at Kings landing a lot though.



I forgot Theon


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## Detonator_Fan (Jan 20, 2011)

Haters gonna hate.
Sansa is bound to do great things (I hope, with ASOIF you never know).
Like for example, taking away everything Cersei loves.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 20, 2011)

Detonator_Fan said:


> Haters gonna hate.
> Sansa is bound to do great things (I hope, with ASOIF you never know).
> Like for example, taking away everything Cersei loves.




*Spoiler*: __ 



At the end of _A Feast For Crows,_ Cersei is already in a very serious predicament, so it might not be necessary for another person, such as Sansa, to torment her any further. Actually, with that being said, what may happen to Tommen? I really hope that he does not die, as Joffrey's death alone was quite devastating for Cersei, already. On that subject, does anyone else sympathize with Cersei? It is true that she is a manipulative and cruel person, but the chapters from her perspective gave greater insight into her character. She has waited for so long to have her chance in the spotlight, her moment of glory, endured the presence and actions of many people, including her father, her brother Tyrion, Eddard Stark, all three Baratheons, and possibly several others, and now that she finally has her moment of glory under the sun, she may lose everything. I cannot help but feel some sympathy for her character, in that situation. What about everyone else?


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## Detonator_Fan (Jan 20, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of _A Feast For Crows,_ Cersei is already in a very serious predicament, so it might not be necessary for another person, such as Sansa, to torment her any further. Actually, with that being said, what may happen to Tommen? I really hope that he does not die, as Joffrey's death alone was quite devastating for Cersei, already. On that subject, does anyone else sympathize with Cersei? It is true that she is a manipulative and cruel person, but the chapters from her perspective gave greater insight into her character. She has waited for so long to have her chance in the spotlight, her moment of glory, endured the presence and actions of many people, including her father, her brother Tyrion, Eddard Stark, all three Baratheons, and possibly several others, and now that she finally has her moment of glory under the sun, she may lose everything. I cannot help but feel some sympathy for her character, in that situation. What about everyone else?



I don't like her at all...
She is one of the main culprits for Joffrey becoming a monster. Has she ever done anything decent to anyone other than teaching Sansa for a while?


*Spoiler*: __ 




I want nothing against Tommen because he is a good kid. Same thing with Myrcella. But there is a pretty large chance they are both gone die.


It will be interesting to see who is the "Younger and more beautiful Queen". 

There is Sansa, Margaery and Danny.

All three are beautiful and young. 

Margaery may "take away" Tommen and Myrcella by turning them against their mother, instead of killing them. The way she could have taken Joffrey is by being the one that had the idea of killing him. But this looks more like something her grandma and LF would plot.

I think it is difficult to see Sansa (the one carrying the poison that killed Joffrey) killing the two of them, since she seemed to like them (as much as she can like a Lannister). But to be fair, one of the points of her part in the novel is her learning the importance of being ruthless and cold, so this would sort of make sense.

As for Danny, she had no part at all in Joffrey's death as far as we know.

Well, there is also Melisandre... She is beautiful, younger than Cersei (most likely), can claim that she killed Joffrey and would have no problems killing the other two. Also, wouldn't have a problem marrying Stannis if his queen died.


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## Cyphon (Jan 20, 2011)

Sympathize with Cersei?


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## Aruarian (Jan 22, 2011)

Well, this is DDJ the automaton we're talking about, so... ya.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 25, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I dislike the fact that Catelyn came back to life but Robb remained dead. I would trade Catelyn's life for Robb's in an instant if I could, as he was a member of the younger generation and therefore had more potential for growth and influence on the storyline.
> 
> And as for Jon Snow, even if he lacks any noteworthy flaws, his life has hardly been easy; he has endured many hardships and difficulties and has come close to dying on multiple occasions, so I believe that he has earned whatever meager rewards he has currently, and I am certain that even his position as leader of the Night's Watch will be very precarious at best.
> 
> ...


lol                        .


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## eXze (Jan 26, 2011)

Detonator_Fan said:


> Haters gonna hate.
> Sansa is bound to do great things (I hope, with ASOIF you never know).
> Like for example, taking away everything Cersei loves.


That's a resolution basically anyone can be responsible for. Cersei vs Cat final fight for death. Two please


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## escamoh (Jan 30, 2011)

i hope sansa dies


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## Nae'blis (Jan 30, 2011)

Littlefinger is with her now; I doubt she can.  She should have left via the Moon door.

I think people like/enjoy Sansa now only because she appears in Petyr Baelish chapters, and he is awesome enough for ten people. Hell, even I liked the Ned Stark chapters when he was in Kings Landing (even though he is as boring and tiresome as listening to dry farts) because of Littlefinger... well and everyone else excluding Ned.


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## Detonator_Fan (Jan 30, 2011)

escamoh said:


> i hope sansa dies



Eventually everyone dies. Except Edd, that will accidentally become immortal, defending the Wall for all eternity.
But Sansa will most likely only die decades after the book ends. A powerful woman.




Nae'blis said:


> Littlefinger is with her now; I doubt she can.  She should have left via the Moon door.
> 
> I think people like/enjoy Sansa now only because she appears in Petyr Baelish chapters, and he is awesome enough for ten people. Hell, even I liked the Ned Stark chapters when he was in Kings Landing (even though he is as boring and tiresome as listening to dry farts) because of Littlefinger... well and everyone else excluding Ned.



Sansa is the best.
Besides, most of her chapters had no Littlefinger.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 1, 2011)

If you liked her when she was in Kings Landing all "true knights derp derp derp" the you are a retard. I say that not to be insulting but to suggest that you need to seek medical help for your problem.


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## Serp (Feb 1, 2011)

Im currently in SoS part1, I heard people say SoS is the best book of the lot, which part exactly are they refering to part1 or part2.


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## masamune1 (Feb 1, 2011)

Americans get it as one book. We only got it as two because it was so big. 

I'm on part 1 too.


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## KidTony (Feb 1, 2011)

There are no parts in the US, we get one single book as masamune said so i didn't know at what part it splits in your version. I thought SoS was amazing from the getgo. Every single storyline was good. The storyline with Jon, the Wildings and the wall was amazing. Danerys storyline was great. Jaime's storyline might not have be as eventful as the others, but it introduces jaime to the cast and you will definitely love the character development. What's going on with Robb and Cat in the riverlands will make you weep at times. Arya's storyline is good, specially towards the end. Bran's is also good, though not great. Davos's one is another very good one. The best of them all though, besides Jon's in SoS is Tyrrian's. Loads of epic moments centering him, specially what goes on with The red Viper, and the end of Tyrion's storyline in the book.

Sos is an awesome book all around.


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## Detonator_Fan (Feb 2, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> If you liked her when she was in Kings Landing all "true knights derp derp derp" the you are a retard. I say that not to be insulting but to suggest that you need to seek medical help for your problem.



Simpletons can't appreciate the greatness of Sansa...


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## Nae'blis (Feb 2, 2011)

Bran does get a lot of screen time. More than I would have thought for a useless child cripple. I guess his role with respect to other characters will be somewhat important later on.


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## Cyphon (Feb 2, 2011)

Bran has powers coming to him no? 

He should be very important at some point.


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## martryn (Feb 2, 2011)

> Bran does get a lot of screen time. More than I would have thought for a useless child cripple. I guess his role with respect to other characters will be somewhat important later on.



I like all the backstory revealed in Bran's chapters.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 2, 2011)

^ Actually I like that too about Bran.


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## Nimander (Feb 2, 2011)

Bran's development is one of the few reasons I'm even still sticking with the series after all this time.  I want to see what GRRM planned to do with him, and Jon.  I honestly cbf to care about most of the rest of the cast, as I either didn't find them engaging enough, or my interest in them has faded over time.


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## Cyphon (Feb 2, 2011)

I think once book 5 hits everyone will be back with renewed vigor. Especially if it is on a high level. By that time I will need to read the first 4 because I have forgotten most of what I read the first time.


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## Serp (Feb 2, 2011)

I like Bran as well, but I feel like his parts are dragging on. I've finished steel and snow and now moving on. At the moment I'm still liking Clash of Kings slightly more but this one is quickly gaining on it.

(And no love for my mad king Aerys Targaryen sig.)


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Feb 14, 2011)

I finished yesterday A feast for Crows, and i didn't like it.. i think it's dued to the PoVs of this book: they are from characters that i dislike. I really don't care for Jaime,Brianne,Sansa,Cersei etc so it was a very boring reading to me.

I missed Jon and Tyron, and above all my favourite character Arya who was left on a cliffhanger.


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## Serp (Feb 14, 2011)

Ive jkust started a feast for crows and it feels like im dragging myself through it and from what Ive skimmed I can't see any considerable Tyrion or Dany 

Jaime is growing on me, Brienne is annoying. Sansa is getting better. And the weird chapter titles are putting me off.


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## The Imp (Feb 14, 2011)

I liked the Sansa chapters in _A Feast for Crows_, mostly because of Littlefinger.


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## Serp (Feb 14, 2011)

Well Sansa is getting better, Jaime and Sam are new enough that this is growth but really its a drop in quality after SoS.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 17, 2011)

Now that Davos has sent away Edric Storm and Jon has sent away Mance Rayder's child, so that Melisandre will not have "the blood of a king" to use for her rituals, who will she use next? She may have been using Stannis, but he is rather old and not necessarily in the best physical health, so I wonder if she may use Jon Snow instead. One might argue that Jon is not a king nor the offspring of one, but "king" is a subjective term, applicable to any person who is a leader of people, and it is also a human concept that is not even carried in one's blood, anyway, so I am certain that Martin will have some explanation for her next "victim," such as Jon's parents actually being Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

And on that subject, the theory of Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna is one that seems to be popular among some fans, form what I have noticed, and I actually like it. While there is no conclusive evidence for such a theory at this moment, it would give greater plot relevance to Rhaegar and Lyanna, for they each currently have very little relevance to the current plot of the story, and it would also be interesting to have a person with both Stark and Targaryen heritage. What does everyone else have to say about that theory?


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## Serp (Feb 17, 2011)

I do believe in Jon = L + R. John is the brother to the current king in the north which should be Bran be rights. John is alos descendent from Starks who were the kings in the North so either via Ned or Lyanna he has Stark blood and there for King blood.

Stannis is also part Targaryen as is all of Current House Baratheon. 

But I find it funny, that Melisandre is talking about a kings blood to wake stone dragon for the Chosen one, when Dany fits the prophecy. She woke the stone dragon eggs, immune to flames and used a kings Blood (Drogo).


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## masamune1 (Feb 17, 2011)

Serp Targaryen said:


> I do believe in Jon = L + R. John is the brother to the current king in the north which should be Bran be rights. John is alos descendent from Starks who were the kings in the North so either via Ned or Lyanna he has Stark blood and there for King blood.
> 
> Stannis is also part Targaryen as is all of Current House Baratheon.
> 
> But I find it funny, that Melisandre is talking about a kings blood to wake stone dragon for the Chosen one, when Dany fits the prophecy. She woke the stone dragon eggs, immune to flames and used a kings Blood (Drogo).



I'm guessing you still have'nt finished all of book 3 then......

Anyway, if Jon is L and R, then he is royal by Targaryen blood, more than Stark blood, He may have a better claim to the throne than Danaerys. Meaning he is the true king, notwithstanding the fact that he is sworn to the Black Brothers, which might be undermined by the fact that he is sworn as Jon Snow and not Jon Targaryen, as well as the impending invasion by the Others.

Well, that, and the fact that Melissandre just wouldn't care.


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## Serp (Feb 17, 2011)

I have read book 3, im halfway through Crows now what point are you getting at? I'm saying that even if R+L wasn't proven or if Melisandre didn't know the Stark blood line is still there for her to figure out and use him for kingly blood.


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## masamune1 (Feb 17, 2011)

Serp Targaryen said:


> I have read book 3, im halfway through Crows now what point are you getting at? I'm saying that even if R+L wasn't proven or if Melisandre didn't know the Stark blood line is still there for her to figure out and use him for kingly blood.



Sorry, I misread it and thought you were saying Robb was still King of the North. 

Whether or not Bran counts as King shoudn't really be relevant to Jon. I think Kingly blood means someone who is, or perhaps could be, a King. Being brother to a King wouldn't count, especially if you are believed to be a bastard.


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## Serp (Feb 17, 2011)

I guess being a brother wouldn't count but seeing as the Starks used to be Kings, they even have the blood of the wildling king in the north (can't recall his name Ygritte explained it), he still is descended from kings. But your most likely right it has to be close close links, and the term king is subjective. And I just remembered although Robb believing Bran and Rickon dead named Jon his heir making Jon king in the north by Robbs final decree although it wasnt touched upon again.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 17, 2011)

The mention of Drogo's death above reminded me of something: Daenerys blames Mirri Maz Duur for Drogo's resurrection into a zombie-like state, and then burns her (Mirri) as punishment for it, but, from what I could tell, it was completely Daenerys's fault that Drogo was revived in such a manner. Mirri clearly warned Daenerys that attempting to return a deceased person to the world of the living was risky and never wise, but Daenerys insisted on the process being performed, fully aware of the risks. Therefore, does Daenerys not seem to be irrational and immature in her act of shifting the blame for Drogo's fate to another person? That is how I perceive the situation.


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## masamune1 (Feb 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> The mention of Drogo's death above reminded me of something: Daenerys blames Mirri Maz Duur for Drogo's resurrection into a zombie-like state, and then burns her (Mirri) as punishment for it, but, from what I could tell, it was completely Daenerys's fault that Drogo was revived in such a manner. Mirri clearly warned Daenerys that attempting to return a deceased person to the world of the living was risky and never wise, but Daenerys insisted on the process being performed, fully aware of the risks. Therefore, does Daenerys not seem to be irrational and immature in her act of shifting the blame for Drogo's fate to another person? That is how I perceive the situation.



She might have warned her, but she did it on purpose and was glad it happened. She had lots of reasons to hate Drogo.

Good ones, though, I might add. I wouldn't say she was being irrational, exactly; Danaery's is just a needy, neurotic little brat who is only able to find meaning in life by clinging to her heritage as Queen-in-waiting, since otherwise she'd just be a scared and frightened little girl all alone in a wild foreign land, with no-one left in the world to love her. 

Which means, since she is a Queen, and since she's selfish enough to imagine her pain is more important than the pain of others, she feels she has the right to punish Mirri Maz Duur in that way. Since, while Drogo and his people had ruined her life and Drogo, ultimately, was not a nice man, she was still Danaerys' man and that matters more.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 18, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> She might have warned her, but she did it on purpose and was glad it happened. She had lots of reasons to hate Drogo.
> 
> Good ones, though, I might add. I wouldn't say she was being irrational, exactly; Danaery's is just a needy, neurotic little brat who is only able to find meaning in life by clinging to her heritage as Queen-in-waiting, since otherwise she'd just be a scared and frightened little girl all alone in a wild foreign land, with no-one left in the world to love her.
> 
> Which means, since she is a Queen, and since she's selfish enough to imagine her pain is more important than the pain of others, she feels she has the right to punish Mirri Maz Duur in that way. Since, while Drogo and his people had ruined her life and Drogo, ultimately, was not a nice man, she was still Danaerys' man and that matters more.



Yes, all of that does make sense, to me. I must have forgotten about that first part, when Mirri deliberately caused Drogo to become a zombie, but Daenerys was still overreacting, in my mind. And on that subject, Daenerys also burned a person who anted her dragons in exchange for their assistance, and then burned a building that she entered seeking answers, only to find more questions. In every one of those situations, she was being arrogant and self-centered, in my mind, and I sincerely hope that she overcomes that glaring flaw soon.


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## Cyphon (Feb 18, 2011)

I feel pretty lost in this discussion right now. I really need to reread these books. It was my first series of such an extensive nature and I have only read it once and that was a little while back.


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## Serp (Feb 18, 2011)

Daenarys is a brat yes, 14 with such a heavy weight on her shoulders and the brainwashing from Viserys didn't help. But I enjoy her development, and how she asked Barristan about her father, learning the doomed secret of the Targaryens. It would have been nice for her to bond with Maester Aemon me thinks.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 18, 2011)

Serp Targaryen said:


> Daenarys is a brat yes, 14 with such a heavy weight on her shoulders and the brainwashing from Viserys didn't help. But I enjoy her development, and how she asked Barristan about her father, learning the doomed secret of the Targaryens. It would have been nice for her to bond with Maester Aemon me thinks.



She was fourteen years old at the beginning of the series, and I believe that she is now seventeen years old as of the most recent book; of course, I certainly do not believe that that at all excuses her behavior, but perhaps that is her flaw, just as every character in this story has their own flaws?


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## Serp (Feb 18, 2011)

She was 13, she was 14 during her marriage with Drogo, she was one year younger than Jon and Rob at the beginning but thats was just a few months difference, she is now 15 methinks. But her flaw is too trusting then too angry at her own naviety. As well as she is doing things she thinks she must and hating so much because of it.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 18, 2011)

Serp Targaryen said:


> She was 13, she was 14 during her marriage with Drogo, *she was one year younger than Jon and Rob at the beginning* but thats was just a few months difference, she is now 15 methinks. But her flaw is too trusting then too angry at her own naviety. As well as she is doing things she thinks she must and hating so much because of it.



Where was that stated? I thought that she was one or two years _older_ than them, especially considering that both her father, Aerys II, and her older brother, Rhaegar, were older than Ned, Robb and Jon's father.


----------



## Serp (Feb 18, 2011)

Well the queen was running away with Viserys when Daenarys was just conceived and thats why Dany says she has never even stepped foot in westeros as she was born months later in the free cities when her bother died in childbirth. Jon and Robb were born before that.

I was also confused about tyrions age until I did the maths. According to the Martells Tyrion was born and the twins were about 8/9 which makes them 8/9 years older. Jamie and Cersei were 17 when Robert took the crown making Tyrion about 8/9 years old and that was 14 years before the start of the series meaning Tyrion is early mid 20s in the book. Although he doesn't seem it.


----------



## masamune1 (Feb 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, all of that does make sense, to me. I must have forgotten about that first part, when Mirri deliberately caused Drogo to become a zombie, but Daenerys was still overreacting, in my mind. And on that subject, Daenerys also burned a person who anted her dragons in exchange for their assistance, and then burned a building that she entered seeking answers, only to find more questions. In every one of those situations, she was being arrogant and self-centered, in my mind, and I sincerely hope that she overcomes that glaring flaw soon.



I'm more inclined to think its going to bite her in the ass. As in, she might take over Westeros, but finds she doesn't actually like it after all. Probably she'll have even more trouble controlling her dragons, which will alienate the populace, and the men she brought from across the sea probably won't much like being in this new place, especially since by then Winter will be Here. 

Viserys and Tyrion might support her but that won't be enough, especially if Littlefinger is still somehow in the frame. Worst of all for her if Jon Snow turns out to be, indeed, her Targaryen cousin, because in that case he may have a better claim to the throne than she does. Her world will soon come crashing down, and it wouldn't surprise me if she didn't make to the end of this story.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 19, 2011)

I asked this earlier, but it was forgotten in the discussion of Jon Snow's heritage, so I shall ask it again: whose blood will Melisandre use for her ritual, now that both Edric Storm and Mance Rayder's child have been sent away?


----------



## Coteaz (Feb 20, 2011)

Finally got around to finishing A Storm of Swords.

I shed a few man-tears when Gregor Clegane killed Oberyn Martell.


----------



## Vault (Feb 21, 2011)

I will try this series, i have heard good things, will go get the first 2 books today


----------



## Vault (Feb 21, 2011)

All of my local libraries withdrew all their copies


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 25, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Finally got around to finishing A Storm of Swords.
> 
> I shed a few man-tears when Gregor Clegane killed Oberyn Martell.



That was rather unfortunate, but at least Oberyn was able to avenge the death of his sister, Elia. However, this also means that Sandor Clegane will never be able to have his revenge against Gregor, unfortunately.

On the subject of House Martell, was anyone else displeased when
*Spoiler*: _spoilers for book 4_ 



Doran ruined Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella? I certainly was, because Arianne was completely correct when she stated that Myrcella would be a better ruler than Joffrey or Tommen and that crowning her would help to advance women's rights in Westeros. I believe that it would have been far better to risk open war with the Iron Throne and House Lannister, and possibly overthrow them, than to allow the current corrupt and tyrannical government to remain in power. What does everyone else believe?


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 26, 2011)

Finally, two years later, I finished the third book...ending made me gasp. Not talking about undead, the chapter before that. I saw it coming but ouch...fucked up. Now know the reason it all started.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 27, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Finally, two years later, I finished the third book...ending made me gasp. Not talking about undead, the chapter before that. I saw it coming but ouch...fucked up. Now know the reason it all started.



If you are referring to
*Spoiler*: __ 



Lysa's attempting to throw Sansa out the Moon Gate, I also found that scene to be incredibly dramatic. I recall my heartbeat increasing as I read that chapter, and then feeling an enormous sense of relief after Petyr threw Lysa out the gate. Lysa was not entirely mentally stable, unfortunately.


----------



## Nae'blis (Feb 28, 2011)

I wanted to see Sansa fly.


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## Serp (Feb 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That was rather unfortunate, but at least Oberyn was able to avenge the death of his sister, Elia. However, this also means that Sandor Clegane will never be able to have his revenge against Gregor, unfortunately.
> 
> On the subject of House Martell, was anyone else displeased when
> *Spoiler*: _spoilers for book 4_
> ...


I agree, but Martell is alittle bitch to be honest. Obryen would have been the better ruler.


----------



## KidTony (Feb 28, 2011)

Serp Targaryen said:


> I agree, but Martell is alittle bitch to be honest. Obryen would have been the better ruler.



LOL???

No he wouldn't. Doran is probably one of the most conniving, inteligent people in the series. He's a master at playing the game of thrones, probably littlefinger level. He's like over 9000 in that respect. We all thought he was a pussy, until Arriane's last POV in AFFC changed that.

Oberyn is like the dornish version of Jaime. Passionate and headstrong. He would have made a horrible ruler.


----------



## Serp (Feb 28, 2011)

Fair enough I'm still a few chapters away from the end of Crows so I will retake my statement.

He is less so than Jaime, Jaime would have attacked Gregor on the go. Oberyn at least has intelligence where Jaime just has skill. But I think that he would have given Dorne alittle of that Dornish spice  But if Doran has a twist up his sleeve, I conceed.


----------



## KidTony (Feb 28, 2011)

Sorry for spoiling you then.

and he's definitely less so than jaime, but it was the best comparison. I don't think either would make for good rulers. You will see at the end of feast what i mean by saying Doran is a fucking pimp.


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## martryn (Mar 1, 2011)

I love Dorne.  Probably my favorite part of that book were the Dorne chapters.  Against the grain, I am.


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## KidTony (Mar 1, 2011)

^ You're not the only one. I liked Dorne over the Iron islands too.


----------



## Serp (Mar 1, 2011)

Dorne is pretty awesome more so than the iron isles, it's radically different.   I want though more focus on the stormlands and westerlands less so on the riverlands/tridents.


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## The Bloody Nine (Mar 1, 2011)

Serp Targaryen said:


> I agree, but Martell is alittle bitch to be honest. Obryen would have been the better ruler.



Yoy Martell is not suicidal. The Lannisters don't even matter at this point though, Dorne might be able to beat them. The problem is the Tyrells. They are so much more powerful than everybody that it's not even funny.

Edit: and you guys are crazy. Iron Isle's is were its at.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 1, 2011)

The tyrels are lead by an idiot though. Mace Tyrel is not Doran level on his wildest dreams. 

Unless you count the queen of thorns, and that bitch is hardcore


----------



## Pintsize (Mar 2, 2011)

Reading _A Storm of Swords_.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Grieving over the death of Ygritte. And the ascension of Jon Snow to stu-dome.

Still like reading Snow. Just less so as of now.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 2, 2011)

The Bloody Nine: while House Tyrell is certainly a powerful house, I doubt it will ever be as central to the plot of the story or as major a threat to the protagonists as such houses as Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, or Targaryen, because, in-universe, it has not participated in any world-altering events (that I can recall); and, out-of-universe, no central characters (meaning characters with chapters told from their perspective) in the series are from that house. From my perspective, influenced by having read all the books in the series thus far, the most important noble houses are Houses Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, and Targaryen, with the other noble houses being important mostly through their relations to those four, although House Greyjoy seems to be an exception, as it has virtually no connection to any other noble house at the present time.

The final chapter from Airanne's point of view in _A Feast for Crows_ suggested that
*Spoiler*: __ 



Doran is seeking an alliance or some other connection with Daenerys against the Lannisters and Tyrells.


What does everyone else think of that?

Similar to the subject of
*Spoiler*: __ 



Doran ruining Arianne's plans


 was the incident in _A Storm of Swords_ where
*Spoiler*: __ 



Lord Wlader Frey had all the Starks and their allies massacred at Edmure's wedding. That was one of the most emotionally-moving and dramatic chapters in the entire series for me, but Lord Walder was being a colossal jackass, in my mind, by doing that. I can understand that he was upset that Robb broke his promise to marry one of his daughters, but Robb did apologize to Lord Walder, and Edmure, Robb's uncle, agreed to marry a different daughter to compensate for the loss, so Lord Walder should have been satisfied. Why did he punish such a minor action with such a grossly disproportionate retribution? Of course, part of the reason that I was so bothered by that occurrence was that Robb died. If any other character had died, but Robb survived, I would not be nearly so upset about it, as I was very fond of Robb as a character. And on that subject, from an out-of-universe perspective, why did Catelyn return to life, but not Robb? I would much rather have had Robb come back to life over Catelyn because he was younger and more valuable as the leader of the northerners, and, of course, a member of House Stark, my favorite house in the series.


What does everyone else say about that?


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Mar 2, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Unless you count the queen of thorns, and that bitch is hardcore



Since when where you under the impression that she does not rule the house. 

Like i said, i know they are not central to the story right now, but House Tyrell is completely broken. The could probably take on any two other houses combined and win.


----------



## Serp (Mar 2, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> The Bloody Nine: while House Tyrell is certainly a powerful house, I doubt it will ever be as central to the plot of the story or as major a threat to the protagonists as such houses as Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, or Targaryen, because, in-universe, it has not participated in any world-altering events (that I can recall); and, out-of-universe, no central characters (meaning characters with chapters told from their perspective) in the series are from that house. From my perspective, influenced by having read all the books in the series thus far, the most important noble houses are Houses Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, and Targaryen, with the other noble houses being important mostly through their relations to those four, although House Greyjoy seems to be an exception, as it has virtually no connection to any other noble house at the present time.
> 
> The final chapter from Airanne's point of view in _A Feast for Crows_ suggested that
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I can explain your last part pretty well. Walder was always looking for power and hated others that had it when he did not. He was a bannerman to Riverrun yes, but he resented that. With Robb's slight it was the perfect time for Tywin to win over Walder and offer them pardon for working with the Starks and give them Riverrun. So Walder betrayed the Tully's and now his son owns Riverrun given to him by the Lannisters and if that walls through his daughter is mother to the Tully heir to Riverrun so either way he won. The way that Catelyn came back was due to the fact that the ressurection is just that not healing and Robb was decapitated. Catelyn was just slashed at the neck so she could have been brought back easier. 

Tyrell in Highgarden is the strongest house, they have men and gold enough to Rival the forces of Casterly Rock. Which is why Renly only had the backing of Highgarden and was a potential threat to the throne, until Stannis killed him. Most of Renlys host went to Stannis but the Tyrells went to the Throne and even Tywin would dare make an enemy out of the Tyrells so not only pardoned them but married their king to them not once but twice. Cersei is well aware of the power of the Tyrells and is as such trying to stop them from gaining more. Just like the Lannisters overthrew Baratheon Rule with the Lannister queen and Lannister kingsguard the Tyrells are playing the same game with Tommen in Roberts role (the little fat king), Marge in Cersei's role (The scheming queen) and Loras as Jaime (The great young arrogant knight). 

And with Dorne, Doran had bethrothed Arriane to Viserys but that had failed when Drogo killed him. And I assume that Qywntyn is for Dany, as Elia was for Rhaegar. Martell were men of Targaryen even until the overthrowning and remained in contempt to those who did that for killing Elia. So it makes sense that Doran would want to marry his heir to the last Targ male and give the power of Sunspear and it all legitimately back to the Targaryens as a kick in the face to the Lannisters and noone could Deny Viserys that kingdom and even lead back into a war to claim the throne. But now his plan seems to rest with Dany. The unsullied, dragons and dornishmen with Myrcella as a hostage using Dorne as their base would be able to overthrown Lannister rule, given the Martells what they wanted as well as the Targs. It makes sense.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 3, 2011)

ADWD TO BE PUBLISHED ON Tuesday JULY 12, 2011

Also, to quote Martin:


"Yes, I know.  You've all seen publication dates before: dates in 2007, 2008, 2009.  None of those were ever hard dates, however.  Most of them... well, call it wishful thinking, boundless optimism, cockeyed dreams, honest mistakes, whatever you like.  

This date is different.   This date is real.   

Barring tsunamis, general strikes, world wars, or asteroid strikes, you will have the novel in your hands on July 12.  I hope you like it.

(For what it's worth, the book's a monster.  Think A STORM OF SWORDS.)

The dragons are coming.  Prepare to dance.

And hey... thanks for waiting."

sauce
Arsenal winding up Barcelona a bit more


----------



## Grrblt (Mar 3, 2011)

Reading ADWD, celebrating 1 year anniversary, reading ADWD, celebrating 1 year anniversary... choices


----------



## Taleran (Mar 3, 2011)

I am not believing of anything until book is on shelf.


Notice he doesn't mention a year. It could be July 12, 2012/3/4/5


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## Nodonn (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm already looking forward to the next one.
My money's on 2022 for that one.


----------



## Serp (Mar 3, 2011)

I already preordered mine on Amazon a week ago for September, but now this news has lifted my spirits


----------



## martryn (Mar 3, 2011)

That gives me a reason to reread the series finally.  I hope I can get through them all by July.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Mar 3, 2011)

Taleran said:


> I am not believing of anything until book is on shelf.
> 
> 
> Notice he doesn't mention a year. It could be July 12, 2012/3/4/5





Martin is such an abusive author that when he gives us good news we instantly expect that he's just getting our guard down.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Mar 3, 2011)

Also


----------



## Pintsize (Mar 3, 2011)

Anyone know where we can get the full interview?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Mar 3, 2011)

HALLELUJAH!


----------



## KidTony (Mar 3, 2011)

Grrblt said:


> Reading ADWD, celebrating 1 year anniversary, reading ADWD, celebrating 1 year anniversary... choices



The choice should be obvious imo 



Taleran said:


> I am not believing of anything until book is on shelf.
> 
> 
> Notice he doesn't mention a year. It could be July 12, 2012/3/4/5



Read again, it says July 12 2011.



martryn said:


> That gives me a reason to reread the series finally.  I hope I can get through them all by July.



Doing so right now. I actually finished AGOT yesterday and started on ACOK.



Pintsize said:


> Anyone know where we can get the full interview?



As far as i know there is no full interview, that's his website. For more news or updates, check his blog called 'Not a blog', just google it.


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## The Pink Ninja (Mar 3, 2011)

Like he'd give us the fucking day of the week, date, the month and then say

*"OH YEAH, I MEANT 2015 GUYS! LOLOLOLOLO"*


----------



## dream (Mar 3, 2011)

Best news I heard all day.  Time to re-read the last book.


----------



## Nodonn (Mar 3, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> Anyone know where we can get the full interview?





> For more of Martin?s interview ? where he compares Dragons to the previous four books, and weighs in on the HBO adaptation ? pick up this week?s print edition of Entertainment Weekly.



From


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## LifeMaker (Mar 3, 2011)

It's about damn time. now you watch ... there _ will _ be an asteroid strike now


----------



## Felix (Mar 3, 2011)

I CAN'T FUCKING BELIEVE HE FINISHED THE BOOK


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Mar 3, 2011)

Thing is, he's still not finished with the book.
He's just being overly optimistic.


----------



## abcd (Mar 3, 2011)




----------



## KidTony (Mar 3, 2011)

The publication date is firm. He's not being overly optimistic. After his past mistakes, he said he would never again make an announcement until he was absolutely sure. We WILL get this book july 12, short of some kind of personal issues like unforeseen illness ,etc. The publication date is also around 3 weeks after the first season of AGOT ends on HBO. The best time to maximize sales. We are getting the book ladies and gentleman, prepare yourselves.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm not counting out the possibility of the announcement of an NFL lockout and George getting depressed for a few months. 

Actually, I am. Fuck the pessimism. I want to believe.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 3, 2011)

A tip of the scale said:


> I can explain your last part pretty well. Walder was always looking for power and hated others that had it when he did not. He was a bannerman to Riverrun yes, but he resented that. With Robb's slight it was the perfect time for Tywin to win over Walder and offer them pardon for working with the Starks and give them Riverrun. So Walder betrayed the Tully's and now his son owns Riverrun given to him by the Lannisters and if that walls through his daughter is mother to the Tully heir to Riverrun so either way he won. The way that Catelyn came back was due to the fact that the ressurection is just that not healing and Robb was decapitated. Catelyn was just slashed at the neck so she could have been brought back easier.



Yes, the part about Lord Walder's betrayal makes sense, even though I am certain that this means that he has lost all respect from nearly every other noble house in Wetseros, and no one shall ever trust him again, as they will not be certain if he shall betray them, as well. As for 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Catelyn's resurrection, I was seeking an _out-of-universe_ explanation: i.e., why Martin chose to bring Catelyn back to life, as opposed to Robb, when Robb was much more valuable to the plot. Would Robb remaining dead have greater emotional impact upon the plot? And why did Catelyn fail to kill Lord Walder, instead killing one of his son's? He was completely defenseless during the massacre, and she was determined to kill him as revenge for him betraying the Starks and Tullys. I cannot recall exactly what happened in that chapter, but it seemed to me that Catelyn had ample opportunity to kill Lord Walder and simply did not.





A tip of the scale said:


> Tyrell in Highgarden is the strongest house, they have men and gold enough to Rival the forces of Casterly Rock. Which is why Renly only had the backing of Highgarden and was a potential threat to the throne, until Stannis killed him. Most of Renlys host went to Stannis but the Tyrells went to the Throne and even Tywin would dare make an enemy out of the Tyrells so not only pardoned them but married their king to them not once but twice. Cersei is well aware of the power of the Tyrells and is as such trying to stop them from gaining more. Just like the Lannisters overthrew Baratheon Rule with the Lannister queen and Lannister kingsguard the Tyrells are playing the same game with Tommen in Roberts role (the little fat king), Marge in Cersei's role (The scheming queen) and Loras as Jaime (The great young arrogant knight).



Yes, again that makes sense, but I would not consider the other major houses out of the picture quite yet; they still have much power of their own, are central to the plot of the series, and because every major character and house in this series has suffered some form of major loss, I am expecting the Tyrells to suffer some form of major loss soon, as well.



A tip of the scale said:


> And with Dorne, Doran had bethrothed Arriane to Viserys but that had failed when Drogo killed him. And I assume that Qywntyn is for Dany, as Elia was for Rhaegar. Martell were men of Targaryen even until the overthrowning and remained in contempt to those who did that for killing Elia. So it makes sense that Doran would want to marry his heir to the last Targ male and give the power of Sunspear and it all legitimately back to the Targaryens as a kick in the face to the Lannisters and noone could Deny Viserys that kingdom and even lead back into a war to claim the throne. But now his plan seems to rest with Dany. The unsullied, dragons and dornishmen with Myrcella as a hostage using Dorne as their base would be able to overthrown Lannister rule, given the Martells what they wanted as well as the Targs. It makes sense.



Yes, it make sense, but I still do not like it, as Martin spent a great amount of time developing that plot line and then simply crushed it with no payoff. I understand that that is a part of his writing style and the dark and grim tone of this series, but it still was immensely anticlimactic and unsatisfying for the readers.



KidTony said:


> ADWD TO BE PUBLISHED ON Tuesday JULY 12, 2011
> 
> Also, to quote Martin:
> 
> ...



Finally! The next book of this series has a definite release date! This is definitely very awesome news, indeed. I shall definitely order it, so that I can read it as soon as it is available. I notice that it is being released almost an entire year before _A Memory of Light,_ the final book of _The Wheel of Time,_ which is a good idea, in my mind, so that the two books will not be competing with each other, and so that readers will have a book to read both during this summer and the next spring. I am so very excited by this surprising new development.


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## The Imp (Mar 3, 2011)

Amazing news and it's finally time to start a re-read.


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## Nae'blis (Mar 3, 2011)

> Barring tsunamis, general strikes, world wars, or asteroid strikes, you  will have the novel in your hands on July 12.  I hope you like it.


He forgot the more likely heart attack, stroke, and general laziness.


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## The Bloody Nine (Mar 3, 2011)

By inference from other things he said then he is on the last chapter guys, second to last at most. Its a done deal. It is!


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## Cyphon (Mar 3, 2011)

I cant believe everyone is getting so excited over the announcement. He's like an abusive spouse and everyone just keeps coming back once he uses soft words 

Seriously though I am hoping for the best. I am excited to do a reread since I have only ever read them once anyway.


----------



## Mori` (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm not getting my hopes up until it's actually out.

Not sure I'll buy it even in paperback though, had my fill of 5 year waits between books from him.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Mar 3, 2011)

God, you bitches could whine about anything, you could take it to Olympic levels.

Or did GRRM make you a promise to write the books exactly how you want them and broke your hearts?


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Mar 3, 2011)

Better Martin spends 5 years between books and it comes out awesome then Erikson who rushes to finish his books in a year and they come out, well, like they have.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 3, 2011)

THE WORLD REALLY IS ENDING! HOLY SHIT! THEY WERE RIGHT ABOUT 2O12! GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER!


----------



## Nakor (Mar 3, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Better Martin spends 5 years between books and it comes out awesome then Erikson who rushes to finish his books in a year and they come out, well, like they have.



I like Erikson's series, though I haven't read the last two books yet.


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## The Bloody Nine (Mar 3, 2011)

Nakor said:


> I like Erikson's series, though I haven't read the last two books yet.



Sure you can like it. But books 2-3 maybe even 4 are not the same as his books after that. I don't think that's very debatable. The rest is all taste.


----------



## Nightfall (Mar 4, 2011)

^I never got past Gardens of the Moon. I will someday...

This is good news, but hopefully he he picks up the pace after this.

Funny to see the meltdown, cynics are having over this on other forums


----------



## Nakor (Mar 4, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Sure you can like it. But books 2-3 maybe even 4 are not the same as his books after that. I don't think that's very debatable. The rest is all taste.



I thought books 5 and 6 were good too. 



Nightfall said:


> ^I never got past Gardens of the Moon. I will someday...



It was tough getting through Gardens of the Moon for me too. Book 2 is really good though


I'm not going to believe the book is coming out on that date until it actually comes out. I will pre-order it, but not truly commit myself to the belief it is coming out until it is in my hands. Too much disappointment with release dates over the years. I finished the 4th book a week after it was released, so it's already been over 5 years for me.


----------



## abcd (Mar 4, 2011)

I hope he gives a date for the 6th book as soon as this has been released


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## KidTony (Mar 4, 2011)

if you pre-order from amazon, do you get the book to your house on release day? I have bad luck pre-ordering stuff, never get shit on release day.


----------



## Dionysus (Mar 4, 2011)

When does it hit the paperback bargain bin? I'll get it then, or a great e-book deal, if available. Maybe I'll just read it all in the store. I've always wanted to do that.


----------



## Taleran (Mar 4, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Better Martin spends 5 years between books and it comes out awesome then Erikson who rushes to finish his books in a year and they come out, well, like they have.



So far I've read up to Toll the Hounds and that one is my favorite in the series.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Mar 4, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Better Martin spends 5 years between books and it comes out awesome then Erikson who rushes to finish his books in a year and they come out, well, like they have.



My hope is that, now that his eleven year battle with Dance is over (or was the battle even longer?), he can get back to dealing out the last books in two year bursts like he did with Clash and Storm. 

Or, that he finishes the series in this decade. 

Or that aliens come down to Earth tommorow and teach us Faster Than Light Space travel.


----------



## Serp (Mar 4, 2011)

KidTony said:


> if you pre-order from amazon, do you get the book to your house on release day? I have bad luck pre-ordering stuff, never get shit on release day.



I use Amazon UK, and I tend to get things one day before they come out or a few days later. Like with Avatar movie, or certain book they got dispatched before publication and I got them a day before.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 4, 2011)

The thing is, i don't want to wait. For Harry Potter and the DH. i had to wait THREE days after publication date for my order to get here. I don't want to wait anything for ADWD.


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## Serp (Mar 4, 2011)

Me too, the day it gets released ill most likely buy it from the book store if my order doesnt come through. And then when the order does comes through return the ordered book with the receipt from the first one and get a refund. In the end only paying the discounted price I got it for from Amazon.


----------



## Serp (Mar 4, 2011)

"man-crush" 

A nice new trailer I dunno if any of you have seen it, it starts the same as the others though.


----------



## Coteaz (Mar 5, 2011)

July 12 is now marked on my calendar. 

Need to find time to read Feast for Crows before then.


----------



## Serp (Mar 6, 2011)

I have just finished Crows yesterday and was sad, but my one thing I hope about Dragons is it goes past crows. Because GRRM said that the events of the other characters would be in Dragons, but I want to see what happens next as well as what happens apart.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 6, 2011)

A tip of the scale said:


> I have just finished Crows yesterday and was sad, but my one thing I hope about Dragons is it goes past crows. Because GRRM said that the events of the other characters would be in Dragons, but I want to see what happens next as well as what happens apart.



Absolutely this. I don't know how everyone else feels but its kind of dumb to use 2 whole books to explore the same timeline. 

I guess I cant fully complain because I don't like missing out on things and he is going to alleviate that I suppose but Dragons would do well with a nice long epilogue or some "bonus" chapters that take us ahead a little bit. On top of that he could add a book 6 preview to it.


----------



## masamune1 (Mar 6, 2011)

Its not "dumb". The only dumb thing is doing that when one book barely advances the story. If both books contain enough relevant info., it makes sense to divide them into two if one book will be too long.


----------



## Mori` (Mar 6, 2011)

It's more easily digestible when they aren't released so far apart too.

I seem to recall reading that the latter portion of the book is fresh timeline, though it's been so many years since I cared that I have no idea where I read it or if it even holds true ^^


----------



## Nae'blis (Mar 11, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Its not "dumb". The only dumb thing is doing that when one book barely advances the story. If both books contain enough relevant info., it makes sense to divide them into two if one book will be too long.


I thought the main plot had to do with the Others...


----------



## masamune1 (Mar 11, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I thought the main plot had to do with the Others...



I never said anything about the main plot.


----------



## crazymtf (Mar 12, 2011)

Reading a feast now. So far it's not bad, but only 60 pages in. From people badmouthing it so much I expected much worse. Glad to see book 5 isn't far away now.


----------



## Serp (Mar 12, 2011)

I just didn't like Crows because my past favourite characters were absent, although it made me like a few more POV's. 

And to do with the plot, you think Melisandre would know that the whole blood of a king to wake a Dragon can be used on a dead king, like Dany did when she burned Drogo. And since Mance is already in her captive, Jon needed not worry about Aemon or Mance's son.


----------



## Freija (Mar 12, 2011)

People are still reading these books?


----------



## Serp (Mar 12, 2011)

Yes we are  The show is coming out and the new book soon also.


----------



## Freija (Mar 12, 2011)

A tip of the scale said:


> Yes we are  The show is coming out and the* new book soon also*.



I seriously just laughed with water in my mouth so the water went out through my nostrils soaking my clothes.


----------



## Serp (Mar 12, 2011)

I would have laughed at that also, but this time I believe him.


----------



## crazymtf (Mar 12, 2011)

This time he's pretty serious about it. Be PERFECT time for him profit wise too. After the show comes out and people eat it up = release new book = tons of sales.


----------



## Freija (Mar 13, 2011)

A tip of the scale said:


> I would have laughed at that also, but this time I believe him.



The naive people in this world *shakes head*


----------



## KidTony (Mar 13, 2011)

an update from his blog

He's said he's still not done, but he's finished one of the POV's he's had remaining, an iron born, and still has another iron born to finish. Theon and Asha are both confirmed POVs of this book, so i'm guessing them though Victarion could be part of it too if he makes it to the free cities.

He also says that the book is now 30 manuscript pages longer than ASOS.


----------



## Nightfall (Mar 14, 2011)

Heard earlier that Theon was still alive, but doesn't have a big role and I doubt Asha will either. And really who wants Theon back anyway?


----------



## Serp (Mar 14, 2011)

According to my sources Theon is back under the guise of "Reek" Ramasy's former guise.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 14, 2011)

Nightfall said:


> Heard earlier that Theon was still alive, but doesn't have a big role and I doubt Asha will either. And really who wants Theon back anyway?



Minor Spoilers


*Spoiler*: __ 





Theon is alive and has a POV return in book 5. Asha also has a POV return in book 5. The length of these POVs is not known. Although Asha is getting married and Theon is in Bolton's dungeons.

I don't know how you could have heard that Theon doesn't have a big role, no one but Martin should know how big of a role he plays in this book.





and LOL at A tip of the scale saying ''according to my sources'' as if what he said wasn't something anyone else had access to.


----------



## Serp (Mar 14, 2011)

.


----------



## abcd (Mar 15, 2011)

KidTony said:


> and LOL at A tip of the scale saying ''according to my sources'' as if what he said wasn't something anyone else had access to.




Ya that is one advantage of having a blog and talking to the readers and fans through it


----------



## Nightfall (Mar 15, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Minor Spoilers
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



It was awhile ago, since it isn't exactly recent news, so the person who wrote the article was probably assuming he would have a minor role. My bad then.

Anyway I don't really care that much about either of them, just hope they won't occupy too much of the book.


----------



## abcd (Mar 18, 2011)

Nightfall said:


> It was awhile ago, since it isn't exactly recent news, so the person who wrote the article was probably assuming he would have a minor role. My bad then.
> 
> Anyway I don't really care that much about either of them, just hope they won't occupy too much of the book.



I actually like that storyline .... and crows eye.. I think they are very important to the main story :/


----------



## KidTony (Mar 18, 2011)

From Martin's editor



> Could this be George’s best book yet? For me, the answer is a resonding: “Yes!” Folks, it is magnificent. WELL worth the wait, in my humble opinion.



Well, sounds like something an editor would say, but hey, it hypes me up either way!


----------



## crazymtf (Mar 19, 2011)

1/3rd of the way done with feast. TBH really enjoying it. Dare I say I enjoy it more then 2? I really didn't like book 2 at all...Book 1 was great along with 3 but book 2 was just flat for me.


----------



## LifeMaker (Mar 20, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> 1/3rd of the way done with feast. TBH really enjoying it. Dare I say I enjoy it more then 2? I really didn't like book 2 at all...Book 1 was great along with 3 but book 2 was just flat for me.



It would be a controversial statement, but everyone has their own taste


----------



## Freija (Mar 22, 2011)

KidTony said:


> From Martin's editor
> 
> 
> 
> Well, sounds like something an editor would say, but hey, it hypes me up either way!



"Well worth the wait"


----------



## Nodonn (Mar 22, 2011)

Feast really suffered from having only half the cast.
That many pages all about people trying to backstab eachother and people running around the woods trying not to get raped is really grating to me.


----------



## Nae'blis (Mar 22, 2011)

I liked reading about Jamie in that novel. I didn't actually like the guy until Cat spoke with him in his cell. "then surely you came to service me" . But during that conversation and afterwards, his trip with Brienne, I really liked him.

But I guess Roy Doctrice is part of that.


----------



## Serp (Mar 22, 2011)

I have learned to like Jaime alot he went from being a bastard to a magnificent bastard


----------



## dream (Mar 22, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I liked reading about Jamie in that novel. I didn't actually like the guy until Cat spoke with him in his cell. "then surely you came to service me" . But during that conversation and afterwards, his trip with Brienne, I really liked him.
> 
> But I guess Roy Doctrice is part of that.



Same here.  His character really grew during the trip.


----------



## Freija (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm sorry, I'm still laughing at his assistant saying "well worth the wait"


----------



## abcd (Mar 24, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qJsSEnhsuI&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

Am I the only one who feels that the girl playing Daenerys' character is too stiff ?


----------



## Felix (Mar 24, 2011)

abcd said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qJsSEnhsuI&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Am I the only one who feels that the girl playing Daenerys' character is too stiff ?



All the scenes you have seen of her are her being afraid or prepared to being raped
It's normal she is stiff


----------



## Nodonn (Mar 25, 2011)

I think being afraid and preparing to get raped sums up 90% of the books actually.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Mar 25, 2011)

You think Daenerys and Drogo has a healthy relationship? 

Call me a bigot, but that relationship was fucked up from the get go.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 25, 2011)

if you consider statutory rape healthy, then yes, they had a wonderful relationship. About the only normal relationship i remember is jon and ygritte, oh wait..she blackmailed him into sex, NVM.

the worst sex scenes is anything involving tyrion. Do not need to read about his hairy purple cock full of veins.


----------



## Pintsize (Mar 25, 2011)

I dunno what people you know, but whenever I watch/read those instances where romantic relationships always work out, and are the only kind of relationship worth having at all, I always wonder what the hell planet whoever made x lives in. Relationships hardly ever work out, and I've known lots of people with unhealthy ones. 

Whatever your take on romance, like everything in Westeros it would seem, relationships are used mostly as weapons, often literally. Robb promised to marry one of the Frey daughters for the support of the Twins. The consequences of breaking his promise serves to illustrate why people in Westeros generally don't marry for love, and that in turn could be why so many people don't have healthy relationships.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 26, 2011)

Rob said:


> You think Daenerys and Drogo has a healthy relationship?
> 
> Call me a bigot, but that relationship was fucked up from the get go.



I shall agree that when their relationship first began, I was very apprehensive about it, for I thought that Drogo, being far older than Daenerys and a leader of a violent warrior tribe, would be physically domineering and abusive of her (in other words, I was expecting what Daenerys was apparently expecting). However, after they had been together for some time, Drogo was seen to have a caring and sensitive side to his personality, so I then began to believe that it would work out well, and then Drogo died, again shattering Daenerys' life of peace and security, which supports the point that I was making earlier.


----------



## Nae'blis (Mar 26, 2011)

Drogo may have just been truly compassionate and caring but their relationship was as fucked up as everyone elses.

And lol, Drogo is near Ser Gregors size, while Daenerys was small even for a thirteen year old. Nightmare fuel right there. And though I'm not current on my statutory rape definitions, Sansa's would-be first time was at the same age as Daenerys when Tyrion was supposed to consummate their marriage.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 27, 2011)

new blog post by GRRM



			
				GRRM said:
			
		

> Two more [short] chapters done. More to come.
> 
> Kong grows bigger and bigger. Past 1600 pp in manuscript now. Oy.
> 
> ...


----------



## abcd (Mar 29, 2011)

> *fan :*
> Been a great fan of SF/Fantasy in general and of your works in particular.
> 
> I was wondering - if this book has taken you so many years, how many would have to pass for the other two ones (and the series) to be finished...
> ...



                        .


----------



## Nightfall (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## KidTony (Mar 30, 2011)

Not that video again...if i had a dollar every time someone's posted that...


anyway

a response to fans comment at his blog



			
				GRRM said:
			
		

> (1) I am writing as fast as I can. Finished a Meereen chapter yesterday, hope to finish another one today


----------



## The Imp (Apr 1, 2011)

GRRM's Blog said:
			
		

> Kong and I are still dancing round the Empire State Building... but meanwhile, some big news from my editors and publishers at Bantam Spectra. In view of the ever-increasing size of A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, they have scrapped their original plans for one single massive hardcover tome, and instead announced that they will divide the novel into five smaller books.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



         .


----------



## Memos (Apr 1, 2011)

Thank god it is april 1st, else I would have raged 

ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE


----------



## Velocity (Apr 1, 2011)

Well, I bought the first book in the series. It was only ?4 and the trailer for the TV series has my interest piqued... So I'll be back here on Monday or Tuesday, since that's when the book should arrive.


----------



## Memos (Apr 1, 2011)

Lyra said:


> Well, I bought the first book in the series. It was only ?4 and the trailer for the TV series has my interest piqued... So I'll be back here on Monday or Tuesday, since that's when the book should arrive.



I was just about to try and get you to start the series


----------



## Velocity (Apr 1, 2011)

Memos said:


> I was just about to try and get you to start the series



Nyahaha! Ninja'd by Play.com.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Apr 1, 2011)

What the hell was that long announcement? Well, it's April 1st, so fuck everything today. i dun beleev it.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 2, 2011)

^Of course it was fake, you should have realized that at "A Dance with Dragons: All the other people'' if not sooner, lol

anyway, awesome wallpapers!



There are seven of them, stark, tully, lannister, arryn, greyjoy, baratheon and targaryen. I love both the stark and greyjoy ones.


----------



## Coteaz (Apr 3, 2011)

No Tyrell banner?

I guess flowers aren't cool enough.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 3, 2011)

No Martel banner either. Probably because those two houses aren't as prominent early on.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 3, 2011)

Anyone see the first 15 minutes? I'll try to post it when it comes out on youtube.


----------



## abcd (Apr 4, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I have noticed that lions are animals often used in folklore and symbology to represent courage and valor and thus are used by heroes, but the house that has a lion as its symbol, House Lannister, is usually not a very "heroic" house in the traditional use of the word. Is that again an example of Martin's defiance of traditional medieval fantasy archetypes?



Jamie and Tyrion are pretty heroic tbh.

edit : loved the preview


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 4, 2011)

abcd said:


> Jamie and Tyrion are pretty heroic tbh.



Yes, I suppose that you are correct about that.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 4, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]JQykXOukM2Q[/YOUTUBE]

in case you didn't catch it last night


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 4, 2011)

Is George R.R. Martin serious about having his documents and manuscripts destroyed if he dies before he can complete the series? Why would he do something such as that? If that happens, his readers shall never know how the story ends, being left in state or agonizing suspense. Surely, he could have a contingency plan, as did Robert Jordan, in the case he himself in unable to complete his series?


----------



## dream (Apr 4, 2011)

> Surely, he could have a contingency plan, as did Robert Jordan, in the case he himself in unable to complete his series?



He might feel that no one would be able to do the remaining books justice.  Other authors might add things that GRRM would not like.  They might not get the writing style right and so on.


----------



## Grrblt (Apr 5, 2011)

If he does that, ex-fans will piss on his grave.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 5, 2011)

just pray he doesn't kick the bucket. Trust me there are no 'contingency plans'. If he dies, the series goes unfinished. GRRM doesn't even approve of people fanficking his world (even going as far as calling it copyright infringement) there's no way he would allow anyone to write his novels.


----------



## abcd (Apr 5, 2011)

Review of first 6 episodes given to 


> Our First Impressions
> 
> Before we launch into our general impressions of the first six episodes of Game of Thrones, some disclaimers.
> 
> ...


----------



## KidTony (Apr 5, 2011)

^That's Elio's and Linda's review. They are about as invested in the series as anyone except for Martin and his family. They are truly hardcore fans of the book, and that review was mostly a comparison of the difference between the book and the show. 

Elio says he rates the show an A-, Linda a B+.


----------



## abcd (Apr 6, 2011)

KidTony said:


> ^That's Elio's and Linda's review. They are about as invested in the series as anyone except for Martin and his family. They are truly hardcore fans of the book, and that review was mostly a comparison of the difference between the book and the show.
> 
> Elio says he rates the show an A-, Linda a B+.




Still that is far better than I expected from a tv series- book adaptation


----------



## Coteaz (Apr 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> My question above was not answered, so I shall ask it again: why is a woman impersonating Arya, and will anyone care if she is exposed?


The Lannisters have allied with Roose Bolton, whom they made the new Warden of the North. Sending "Arya Stark" to marry Bolton's son is a way to legitimize House Bolton's dominion and suppress dissent from the other northern houses. 

Most of the people who actually knew Arya are dead or have fled the realm, so the chances of her being exposed are low.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 6, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> The Lannisters have allied with Roose Bolton, whom they made the new Warden of the North. Sending "Arya Stark" to marry Bolton's son is a way to legitimize House Bolton's dominion and suppress dissent from the other northern houses.
> 
> Most of the people who actually knew Arya are dead or have fled the realm, so the chances of her being exposed are low.



Yes, that does make sense, but why must House Stark suffer so much? And is it not a rather incredible coincidence, one that almost strains credibility, and very convenient for the Lannisters, that no one is around to expose the false Arya, most notably the real Arya?

And on that subject, I cannot recall why Arya fled Westeros at all. What was her reason for traveling across the ocean to Braavos? Would she not have been safer, or at least more comfortable and in a familiar environment, if she had joined Jon at The Wall, as was her original plan?


----------



## abcd (Apr 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, that does make sense, but why must House Stark suffer so much? And is it not a rather incredible coincidence, one that almost strains credibility, and very convenient for the Lannisters, that no one is around to expose the false Arya, most notably the real Arya?
> 
> And on that subject, I cannot recall why Arya fled Westeros at all. What was her reason for traveling across the ocean to Braavos? Would she not have been safer, or at least more comfortable and in a familiar environment, if she had joined Jon at The Wall, as was her original plan?



At what point did u feel that Arya had any plan ?

As to why stark must suffer so much... they are the protagonists  , It will not make a good story if they are happy and gay.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, that does make sense, but why must House Stark suffer so much? And is it not a rather incredible coincidence, one that almost strains credibility, and very convenient for the Lannisters, that no one is around to expose the false Arya, most notably the real Arya?
> 
> And on that subject, I cannot recall why Arya fled Westeros at all. What was her reason for traveling across the ocean to Braavos? Would she not have been safer, or at least more comfortable and in a familiar environment, if she had joined Jon at The Wall, as was her original plan?



The Starks and the Lannisters have both suffered a lot, even if the Starks didn't exactly initiate the conflict. Cersei is essentially on death row and probably  won't reach a position of power again, mostly due to her own ineptitude though. House Lannisters is pretty much a shadow of what it used to be. And all the atrocities done by several factions are covered up all the time, seems awfully convenient that Gregor Glegane was allowed to go on a rampage for so many years as well doesn't it?

I don't exactly see the Starks as the protagonists. Entire series seems more like an ensemble to me.


----------



## Serp (Apr 6, 2011)

I decided to make these pokethrones wallpapers on a whim.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 6, 2011)

If any of you have HBO, there's a 30 minute 'making of game of thrones' special today, at 10 est. It will probably have a lot of footage we've already seen, but might also have some new material.

I'll post it up when it becomes available on youtube tomorrow.


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 6, 2011)

The Starks suffer so much because... how to did Tyrion put it? "Too honest/dumb to live; too noble to shit". That pretty much wraps up the dead Starks and Sansa.

If there were any protagonists it would be Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon. And maybe Littlefinger since he seems to be the one whose plans never fail and could eventually win everything he desires.


----------



## abcd (Apr 7, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> The Starks suffer so much because... how to did Tyrion put it? "Too honest/dumb to live; too noble to shit". That pretty much wraps up the dead Starks and Sansa.
> 
> If there were any protagonists it would be Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon. And maybe Littlefinger since he seems to be the one whose plans never fail and could eventually win everything he desires.



I always imagine Arya as an upcoming ninja assassin ... Sansa as a mini little finger, Bran as a flying priest of some sort and Rickon as the lord of winterfell.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 7, 2011)

I can understand that the Starks suffer so much because they are, from a certain perspective, the main protagonists of the series, but that only increases my desire to see them succeed. Although I certainly am interested in the other characters, I do not care who lives or who dies as long as the Starks are victorious and reigning supreme by the end of the series. I support them above all other families and houses, and hope that at least one of them survives to the end of the series.


----------



## Spartacus (Apr 7, 2011)

abcd said:


> I always imagine Arya as an upcoming ninja assassin ... Sansa as a mini little finger, Bran as a flying priest of some sort and Rickon as the lord of winterfell.



And Jon as the lost king returned?


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 7, 2011)

Jon as Azor Ahai would make me laugh my tits off... then be very pissed. 





DemonDragonJ said:


> I can understand that the Starks suffer so much because they are, from a certain perspective, the main protagonists of the series, but that only increases my desire to see them succeed. Although I certainly am interested in the other characters, I do not care who lives or who dies as long as the Starks are victorious and reigning supreme by the end of the series. I support them above all other families and houses, and hope that at least one of them survives to the end of the series.


  brain dead


----------



## Coteaz (Apr 7, 2011)

Stannis is the only reborn Azor Ahai we need.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 7, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]OofPjpBVvEA[/YOUTUBE]

25 min making of vid


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 8, 2011)

I notice that House Tyrell is becoming very powerful recently, with Houses Lannister, Baratheon, and Stark in difficult situations, but if the examples of the other three houses are any indication, House Tyrell's increase in power will also cause it to become more susceptible to problems and difficulties. Does anyone here believe that House Tyrell will suffer from any significant losses in the upcoming books? I certainly believe so.



Nae'blis said:


> brain dead



Are you saying that my above post somehow indicates that I am brain dead? If so, why do you say such a thing?


----------



## Aruarian (Apr 8, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> brain dead



His processor might need overclocking.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Apr 8, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> If there were any protagonists it would be Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon. And maybe Littlefinger since he seems to be the one whose plans never fail and could eventually win everything he desires.



You can hate Littlefinger all you want but fact is his cause is right. He was once a gentle, bookish romantic. Then those fucking inbred highlords pretty much crushed that side of him. Sure Ned is noble and valiant but by what right does he get to chop a mans head off and call it justice. Tywin Lannister had a woman gangraped and cities sacked (read thousands of people raped, murderd and for those that survived having their livelihoods destroyed) with no consequences. Fuck the system.


----------



## masamune1 (Apr 8, 2011)

Isn't his "cause" just plunging Westeros into civil war and commiting multiple murders for career advancement?


----------



## abcd (Apr 9, 2011)

I prefered the moon door to be a door not a pit hole type thing :/


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 9, 2011)

lol wat? who hates Littlefinger? I'm yet to meet someone who does.


----------



## Pineapples (Apr 9, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Stannis is the only reborn Azor Ahai we need.


Perhaps Martin will surprise us all by showing that Stannis is indeed Azor Ahai reborn.



Nae'blis said:


> lol wat? who hates Littlefinger? I'm yet to meet someone who does.


Vary's . I should hate this man for all he's (directly or indirectly) done to the Starks but his wicked character has grown to me. And, of course, he took Lysa (probably his fault too that she was so messed up).


----------



## Coteaz (Apr 10, 2011)

Pineapples said:


> Perhaps Martin will surprise us all by showing that Stannis is indeed Azor Ahai reborn.


Martin needs to throw the poor man a bone. Stannis has been shat on for most of the series, despite being one of the only honest and lawful rulers in Westeros.

Renly's murder notwithstanding - that was all due to Melisandre's influence.


----------



## KidTony (Apr 10, 2011)

There a theory floating out there that Stannis is going to burn someone close to him and become the new night king, and the avatar of the great other.


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 10, 2011)

So I guess the general consensus is that Melisandra is working (knowingly or not ) for the great Other?

Stannis isn't really close to anyone. I mean, who does he actually care for?


masamune1 said:


> Isn't his "cause" just plunging Westeros into civil war and commiting multiple murders for career advancement?


More like putting his cock in Sansa. but I guess his cause may also be the same as Varys to but the targaryens back in power.


----------



## masamune1 (Apr 11, 2011)

I think he wants to be King. Or if not, the power behind the throne. Despotism Jutsifies The Means and all that.


----------



## Felix (Apr 11, 2011)

He wants a piece of Sansa
Which is perfectly understandable


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Apr 11, 2011)

There is no way that Petyr wants to be King, the dude is far too smart for that. Nah, he wants a puppet king or something.


----------



## masamune1 (Apr 11, 2011)

Pretty much what I said.


----------



## LifeMaker (Apr 15, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Martin needs to throw the poor man a bone. Stannis has been shat on for most of the series, despite being one of the only honest and lawful rulers in Westeros.
> 
> Renly's murder notwithstanding - that was all due to Melisandre's influence.



Stannis actually understands what it means to be king at least. Perhaps he's a touch too hard and inflexible, but he actually tries to make the right choices, not the choices that are merely right for him...

Stannis does indeed deserve more respect


----------



## Pineapples (Apr 16, 2011)

Stannis, in a way, is pretty good guy. He might prove to be a serviceable king but his reign would be pretty bloody. Varys once said that "There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." If for some wild luck Stannis takes the throne, he would permanently purge a large part of the court. Some nobles and lord would panic/resist; could even lead to a civil war.

Though, I also hope that his Hand Davos has a bright future. 
(I haven't read the tidbits released from Dance, so I'm not sure about his recent developments)


----------



## LifeMaker (Apr 16, 2011)

Quite. Davos is one of the few good men in an otherwise grey world


----------



## masamune1 (Apr 16, 2011)

Stannis is a hypocrite who is letting his strict moral code be sidelined by bitterness and ambition. He murdered his own brother and expected Jon Snow to serve as his puppet Lord by forsaking his oath to the Night Watch; by his own standards he doesn't deserve to be King. I expect him to redeem himself by forsaken the Crown and dying in battle against the Others or something.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Apr 16, 2011)

LifeMaker said:


> Quite. Davos is one of the few good men in an otherwise grey world



Put like that - whilst considering how brutal the series is to good men - his survival rating drops like a rock.


----------



## LifeMaker (Apr 17, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Stannis is a hypocrite who is letting his strict moral code be sidelined by bitterness and ambition. He murdered his own brother and expected Jon Snow to serve as his puppet Lord by forsaking his oath to the Night Watch; by his own standards he doesn't deserve to be King. I expect him to redeem himself by forsaken the Crown and dying in battle against the Others or something.



Technically his brother was commiting treason so it could be argued that Stannis was serving justice by the letter of the law, albeit in an unorthodox fashion.

Expectiong Jon Snow to leave the Nights watch i agree with though, considering how strongly he believes in his own word.

I fully expect Stannis to die a redeeming death though


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 17, 2011)

I, also, am not fond of Stannis; he claims to be just and fair, but to me, he is very stern and unwilling to compromise with anyone on even a minor issue. His claims that he is the rightful ruler of Westeros by virtue of being the next Baratheon sibling are somewhat invalidated by the fact that Robert won the throne by forcefully overthrowing the previous monarchy, as Renly stated. I myself would much have preferred Renly as the king of Westeros rather than Stannis.

On the subject of Renly, is there any evidence that Stannis had any involvement in his death? As far as I can tell, Renly was killed by a shadow creature summoned by Melisandre, with no involvement from Stannis. And on the subject of Melisandre, why must she give birth to the shadow creatures, rather than merely summoning them? It seems to me that her powers are related to either seduction or childbirth, which are elements that women seem to be limited to in ancient folklore in actuality, not having the vast array of abilities that men often have in such stories. As a side note, for that reason, I like Arya and Brienne very much, as they defy the cultural expectations of their societies in the story.

On the subject of Brienne, do you believe that she will survive? I know that Martin kills off his characters with alarming regularity and cruelty, but Brienne's story seemed to be too vital to the overall plot of the series to end as it did in _A Feast for Crows,_ so I am hoping that she will have some major role in the future books of the series.

Finally, on the subject of Melisandre's shadow beasts, why is magic such a rare element in this series (as opposed to the works of Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, R.A. Salvatore, or Robert Jordan, in which magic is very abundant)? I understand that this is likely to make the world seem to be more "dark and gritty," but I am certain that that tone could be achieved anyway by having rules under which magic functions (such as in Goodkind's works, which have very strict rules under which magic operates, as opposed to Brooks' works, which have very little rules under which magic functions) so that it did not solve plot problems too easily, or is that how magic functions already in the series?


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## masamune1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Stannis was the shadow creature. 

Renly may technically have been commiting treason but, then again, so was Robert when he rebelled. More importantly Stannis killed him because he was trying to seize control of his armies, not for that, and worse he let other people take the fall for it. And I think even for Stannis calling what Renly did "treason" was quite a stretch.


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 17, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Stannis was the shadow creature.



How did that happen, and where was that stated? Forgive me for needing to ask such questions, but I do not recall that particular detail having been mentioned in any of the books.


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## The Imp (Apr 17, 2011)

Catelyn notes that the shadow that killed Renly looks like Stannis. It's an important plot point and difficult to miss.


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## Spartacus (Apr 17, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> How did that happen, and where was that stated? Forgive me for needing to ask such questions, but I do not recall that particular detail having been mentioned in any of the books.



You'd have to miss quite a lot of implied stuff in that chapter, to not realize that the shadow was spawned by Stannis and Melisandre. Whether Stannis was completely willing is a valid question.


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## Nae'blis (Apr 17, 2011)

Didn't Melisandre try to proposition Davos with a night of fiery passion in order to birth another shadow? I'm thinking Stannis knew what he was getting his cock into, even if he wasn't actively  controlling the shadow as it cut through Renly's gorget.

Probably the only part Stannis didn't know is how she was going to drain his life energy so quickly.


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## Cyphon (Apr 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> As a side note, for that reason, I like Arya and Brienne very much, as they defy the cultural expectations of their societies in the story.



Arya consistently had some of my favorite view points. She was fun to read. Brienne I didn't like as much. With Arya it was a kind of cute mischief and toughness but Brienne was older and just seemed like the type of girl I don't get a long with IRL. 



> On the subject of Brienne, do you believe that she will survive? I know that Martin kills off his characters with alarming regularity and cruelty, but Brienne's story seemed to be too vital to the overall plot of the series to end as it did in _A Feast for Crows,_ so I am hoping that she will have some major role in the future books of the series.



I agree with this. I expected her to survive and do some things in the future but Cat is cold as ice. She was a bitch before and only got worse after everything that happened. I am not sure she will see reason.



> Finally, on the subject of Melisandre's shadow beasts, why is magic such a rare element in this series (as opposed to the works of Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, R.A. Salvatore, or Robert Jordan, in which magic is very abundant)?



I have been pretty torn on this element of the books as well. On one hand it is nice to read a fantasy where everyone doesn't need a super power to compete and all that, but on the other hand it has been a little too much tease on Martin's part. Assuming we get all of the books there is still plenty of room to give us more so at this point I am fine with it. I am waiting to see what Bran is getting into and how people fight against the dragons and such. 


On that note did anyone see the first episode of Thrones? I watched it tonight and really enjoyed it. Honestly I don't have one complaint but I don't remember the books well enough to compare either.


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## Pineapples (Apr 18, 2011)

On the subject of magic, I have three not entirely far-fetched suspicions:

(1) Upon their conquest, the Targaryens sought ought to ruthlessly stamp out the usage of magic. This could potentially be linked to the destruction of Valyria. We have practically no info on the Doom of Valeria but I suspect that magic had a big part in it. If that turns out to be the case, then the Targaryens would logically want to prevent the Doom from occuring once more. (Thought process inspired by elves from Warcraft)

(2) Another would be that a powerful network or society has created a monopoly of magic; allowing practice to only its members or associates. Melisandre would obviously part of this society. (Thought process inspired by blood mages from Gentlemen Bastards series)

Or maybe even a third scenario, where the powers behind all this business just severed ties with the populace. Kind of like the Valar with Middle-Earth. But since magic is back, maybe Melkor escaped.



Just throwing out some ideas.


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## KidTony (Apr 18, 2011)

How is the gentleman bastard series by the way? I heard lies of locke lamora was excellent, but the 2nd book not as good?


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## The Imp (Apr 18, 2011)

KidTony said:


> How is the gentleman bastard series by the way? I heard lies of locke lamora was excellent, but the 2nd book not as good?



The first book is a very fun read. I haven't read the second one yet and the third one looks like its gonna take a while to come out. It's a good series but it's supposed to be 7 books and the last one came out in 2007. I wouldn't recommend starting it just yet.


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## KidTony (Apr 18, 2011)

sounds like a series i'm very familiar with...


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## Pineapples (Apr 18, 2011)

KidTony said:


> How is the gentleman bastard series by the way? I heard lies of locke lamora was excellent, but the 2nd book not as good?



The Lies of Locke Lamora (the 1st one) is fucking fantastic. You'd be doing yourself a tremendous favor by reading it. I highly, highly recommend it.

Red Seas under Red Skies (the 2nd one) is pretty good as well. But, I think it's not really as much fun as the first one. I don't want to offer any spoilers (unless you're in want of some):


*Spoiler*: __ 



The cast in the first one is superior. The villians are funner, e tc. Minor spoilers, well not really spoilers. Oh, motherfucking Jean Tannen makes his name in there as Locke's partner. The setting as well, Camorr (1st one)> Tal Verrar (2nd one). The language is pretty vulgar but nothing disgusting. 




It's the first fantasy series I really enjoyed after the good curse that is the Song of Ice and Fire.


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## Cyphon (Apr 18, 2011)

KidTony said:


> How is the gentleman bastard series by the way? I heard lies of locke lamora was excellent, but the 2nd book not as good?



I thought both books were good. 

I won't say the 2nd one is better but it actually took awhile for the first one to grow on me so it may have just felt like the 2nd one was better since I was familiar with the characters and writing more at that point. 

Anyway I would definitely recommend it. It's not too heavy on magic and fantasy and has a raw appeal to it I really liked.


On topic: Nobody watched Game of Thrones yet?


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## Nae'blis (Apr 18, 2011)

they have, but it has its own thread so the discussion is there.


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 18, 2011)

Lu Bu, Spartacus, I did notice that the Shadow had Stannis' form, but I wonder how Melisandre was able to convince Stannis to make love with her so that she could spawn it; as Stannis is extremely strict about observing laws and rules, including fidelity to his spouse, as noted by Eddard Stark when he met Gendry, realizing that the boy had to be Robert's son, as Renly was too young to have sired a boy that age and Stannis would never be unfaithful to his wife.

On that subject, does anyone here suspect that she may attempt to seduce Jon Snow to spawn another shadow beast? I certainly would have no objection to such an occurrence.

And on the subject of Jon, why are illegitimate children such a major issue in this series, being discriminated against and universally referred to as "bastards," a highly offensive term? They are not at fault for their births, so I find it to be terribly irrational for them to be treated as second-class citizens by the general populace of Westeros.

And also on the subject of Jon, does anyone here dislike how so many characters in this series have the same first name, with Jon and Brandon being among the most popular? I find that that practice makes it rather difficult to distinguish certain characters from each other, at times.


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## Cyphon (Apr 18, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> they have, but it has its own thread so the discussion is there.



Ah my bad then. Appreciate the info.


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## Nae'blis (Apr 19, 2011)

You think Stannis would balk at that when he had already agreed to kinslaying?



> why are illegitimate children ... referred to as "bastards,"


lol?


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## masamune1 (Apr 19, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Lu Bu, Spartacus, I did notice that the Shadow had Stannis' form, but I wonder how Melisandre was able to convince Stannis to make love with her so that she could spawn it; as Stannis is extremely strict about observing laws and rules, including fidelity to his spouse, as noted by Eddard Stark when he met Gendry, realizing that the boy had to be Robert's son, as Renly was too young to have sired a boy that age and Stannis would never be unfaithful to his wife.



Gendry is devoted to Melissandre's faith. Mellisandre or even Gendry herself might have convinced him on those grounds, that he wasn't really being unfaithful (esp. since it was "political") at all.

Plus, if I remember, Davos confronted Stannis about it and he all but admitted culpability.  



> And on the subject of Jon, why are illegitimate children such a major issue in this series, being discriminated against and universally referred to as "bastards," a highly offensive term? They are not at fault for their births, so I find it to be terribly irrational for them to be treated as second-class citizens by the general populace of Westeros.



"Bastard" means illegitimate child. Thats why its offensive.


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 19, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Gendry is devoted to Melissandre's faith. Mellisandre or even Gendry herself might have convinced him on those grounds, that he wasn't really being unfaithful (esp. since it was "political") at all.



Gendry is an illegitimate son of Robert Baratheon, so it seems to me that you may be confusing him with someone else.



masamune1 said:


> "Bastard" means illegitimate child. Thats why its offensive.



I know what the word means, but I was asking why it is used, rather than "illegitimate child," which is far less offensive, and also why many people in Westeros make such a great deal over the existence of such children.


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## masamune1 (Apr 19, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Gendry is an illegitimate son of Robert Baratheon, so it seems to me that you may be confusing him with someone else.



Well, my mistae. Stil, my point stands.



> I know what the word means, but I was asking why it is used, rather than "illegitimate child," which is far less offensive, and also why many people in Westeros make such a great deal over the existence of such children.



Because _ASoIaF_ is set in a Medeival-style fantasy world adn is an intentional deconstruction of other such fantasy series which tend to make this kind of world all nice and rosy. The word wasn't quite as offensive back then (or rather, being offensive didn't matter as much) but they make a big deal out of it because family and bloodlines were a big deal, and are in Westeros. After all, only legitimate male children have a shot at seizing the throne/ become head of the family.


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## Aruarian (Apr 19, 2011)

You should try translating it into binary, he might understand it better then.


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## abcd (Apr 19, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I know what the word means, but I was asking why it is used, rather than "illegitimate child," which is far less offensive, and also why many people in Westeros make such a great deal over the existence of such children.



Because the legitimate children should get more preference ... which maintains the order in the society


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 19, 2011)

Hangat?r said:


> You should try translating it into binary, he might understand it better then.



I do not appreciate your behavior, Hangatyr, nor the fact that you gave me -rep for my above post. I asked a perfectly legitimate question, and you were very immature to damage my reputation because of it; now I must work to recover the reputation that I lost before I can increase its value.


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## Aruarian (Apr 19, 2011)

As immature as revenge repping, one would assume. Fuel to a fire, I fear. Fuel to a fire.





OT: If I didn't lend a friend both The Blade Itself and A Game of Thrones, I'd be re-reading the series. First ep of GoT got me rather excited for the series again, after G.R.R.'s incessant stalling and NFL writing.


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## Nae'blis (Apr 19, 2011)

but the beginning is boring. Aside from the Jon (at the Wall) chapters, it only picks up when Tyrion leaves the Eyrie and meets the mountain clans.


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 19, 2011)

What chance is there that society's overall perception of bastards will change as the books progress? I myself am very much hoping that someone will start a movement for them to be treated with better respect and social status.


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## Nae'blis (Apr 19, 2011)

0                     %

The only person who treats bastards like shit is Catelyn Stark, but she is a bitch so who cares. Otherwise bastards are treated relatively well but are just not allowed to inherit. I mean, why should one drunken fuckfest mistake mean more than the child of an arranged and meaningful marriage? We are reading about nobles, not stable boys and kitchen wenches. No one cares about poor baseborn children, but this is _A Game of Thrones_ where legitimacy means everything. Donal Noye makes specific mention of the brothers who are born of whores, and no one calls them bastards, but it only matters because Jon is a noblemans bastard.

And every fantasy book treats bastards the same: no castle for them.


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## Pineapples (Apr 20, 2011)

I still don't understand why bastards such as Jon complain (other than Catelyn). Sure they might not have a chance to become Lord or own castles but they have a pretty damn comfy life (relative to the common man that is).


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## LifeMaker (Apr 20, 2011)

Pineapples said:


> I still don't understand why bastards such as Jon complain (other than Catelyn). Sure they might not have a chance to become Lord or own castles but they have a pretty damn comfy life (relative to the common man that is).



in a martial society honour is extremely important, especially to a man, so slighted honour will inevitably reflect poorly on a man's martial prowess, and cause further problems.

However, in many places bastards are tolerated, it's just the higher you go with the issue of nobility and honour at stake the more likely issues are to arise, like Cersei having all of her husbands bastards she could find killed


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 20, 2011)

On the subject of Catelyn, why do so many people dislike her? I did find her to be annoying, but she was a mother who was seeking to protect her children, so I cannot find fault in her for most of her actions, apart from capturing Tyrion, as that was a very cruel and unjustified action to take, and disliking Jon Snow in general, as he did nothing to earn her scorn.

In fact, on the subject of mothers seeking to protect their children, I dislike Cersei far more than Catelyn, because Cersei was a conniving and scheming seductress who jealously sought to eliminate Robert's illegitimate children (on that subject, does anyone notice her similarity to Hera of Greek mythology?) and then ruin Margaery's image, although I do like Cersei on her own as a character, and especially in comparison to Margaery. I understand that Cersei wants to protect Tommen, but her method of doing so is not likely to actually protect him, in my mind.


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## Nightfall (Apr 20, 2011)

Really looking forward to seeing the development on the Wall in ADWD. So much potential...

Almost feel bad for those who haven't read about Tyrion for 11 years now..:S


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## Spartacus (Apr 21, 2011)

Cross breeds of dogs are referred to as bastards....

Should we start a movement so dogs don't feel discriminated by the word?


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## Nae'blis (Apr 21, 2011)

so long a wait


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## crazymtf (Apr 24, 2011)

I finally fucking caught up. After 4 years I am fully caught up. Maybe 30-40 books inbetween the 4 books in this series, I finally caught up. My order from most like to least like will different then most. 

1. A Storm Of Swords - Well how can we even challenge this one? So many important events, so many jaw dropping moments, so many "FUCK YES" and so many "NO FUCKING WAY" moments. Overall easily the strongest book. 

2. Feast Of Crows - Yeah yeah "Long winded, boring chapters, none of my favorite characters" well I still found it a very strong book. Interesting throughout despite very little action. I think my favorite thing was the characters like Jamie and Cersei getting so much book time. It really grew out these characters for me. Also enjoyed Sam's growth. 

3. A Game Of Thrones - While it started slow it picked up midway. The last third of the book was pretty much amazing. The ending remains one of my favorites of all time. 

4. Clash of kings - I don't hate this book. It just came off as a middle ground. Similar to feast, it builds up a lot of stuff for the next book. I enjoyed it, don't get me wrong. Still a good book but not great like the rest for me. 

So yeah...bring on July 12th!


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## Nightfall (Apr 26, 2011)

Ranking A Feast for Crows second seems a bit strange for me, but it's most certainly underrated and people don't give it credit for Jaime, Cersei and a few others. Especially Jaime got some awesome development. I also delayed A feast for Crows until last year actually after two years since I read ASoS.


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## crazymtf (Apr 26, 2011)

I just didn't like book 2 all that much. Certain scenes were great but overall it just didn't do much for me. Like you said, Feast gave awesome development on Jamie, who easily became one of my favorite new characters. So overall Feast was a joy to read.


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 27, 2011)

I am very eager to learn what is happening with Arya over in Braavos, as she had very few chapters in _A Feast For Crows,_ and also with Theon, now that he has been revealed to be still alive. I really hope that Davos is still alive, as well, as he was one of the few rational characters in the entire series.


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## Memos (Apr 27, 2011)

He finished Dance with Dragons.


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## Coteaz (Apr 27, 2011)

That confirmation is a nice end of semester present. 

July 12, here we come.


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## Grrblt (Apr 27, 2011)

Memos said:


> He finished Dance with Dragons.



Or he killed a big gorilla.


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## Memos (Apr 27, 2011)

Grrblt said:


> Or he killed a big gorilla.



The big gorillas all died out a hundred years ago.


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## Nightfall (Apr 27, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> I just didn't like book 2 all that much. Certain scenes were great but overall it just didn't do much for me. Like you said, Feast gave awesome development on Jamie, who easily became one of my favorite new characters. So overall Feast was a joy to read.



Lannisters mostly breed ''awesome''
Just some bad eggs like Joffrey...

And I like these recent news, this summer will be a thrill.


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## Grrblt (Apr 27, 2011)

Memos said:


> The big gorillas all died out a hundred years ago.


Who said it was a recent photo?


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## Memos (Apr 27, 2011)

Grrblt said:


> Who said it was a recent photo?



So he is talking about a big gorilla he killed a hundred years ago? :33


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## Grrblt (Apr 27, 2011)

Memos said:


> So he is talking about a big gorilla he killed a hundred years ago? :33



Why so :33? It had a family


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## Memos (Apr 27, 2011)

Grrblt said:


> Why so :33? It had a family



I don't think they were in any state to care. 

Does anyone know if this will be released in two parts like Storm of Swords was in the UK?


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## The Imp (Apr 27, 2011)

In the UK the paperback will be in 2 parts, not sure about the hardcover.


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## crazymtf (Apr 27, 2011)

I seriously hope he doesn't die before he finishes this series. He's so...unhealthy looking. He needs to hop on the bike and lose some weight. He can even read and be on a bike!


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## Nightfall (Apr 27, 2011)

I think he's heard it a lot ever since Robert Jordan died. Wouldn't hold my breath on him starting to train though. Anyway I hope he'll pick up his pace now that he's presumably finished with Dance and won't be stuck in limbo for another six years on Winds of Winter. It will probably be a lot easier this time though, since hopefully he's back on track now.


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## Felix (Apr 27, 2011)

He says the next books will be easier to go on since Dance was a big huge clusterfuck of individual plots being intertwined together. The next books will go as planed (Hopefully)
I bet the last book will be chaos though. He said multiple times he does not want to pull a Lost on us...


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## crazymtf (Apr 28, 2011)

I predict book 6 will come out in two years, book 7 3-4 years after that. Man I'll almost be in my 30's


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## abcd (Apr 28, 2011)

Felix said:


> He says the next books will be easier to go on since Dance was a big huge clusterfuck of individual plots being intertwined together. The next books will go as planed (Hopefully)
> I bet the last book will be chaos though. He said multiple times he does not want to pull a Lost on us...



He was mainly stuck with the meereneese knot , that happened because of skipping the time skip , Hope he completely solved it :/


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## KidTony (Apr 28, 2011)

i also think TWoW will be out in 2 years, and the last book ADoS (A denial of service lol lol?) will be out in 3-4 years after that.


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## abcd (Apr 28, 2011)

*The book is finished !!* 


from his blo0g


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 28, 2011)

abcd said:


> *The book is finished !!*



I am so very excited to read it; I will definitely purchase it as soon as it is available.


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## abcd (Apr 28, 2011)

Memos said:


> Well shit...



cant access link


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## Memos (Apr 28, 2011)

Oh damn. It was the editor reading a few lines from random parts of Dance with Dragons.

It was like this but a little different:
[YOUTUBE]Ucagf1wt3Ic[/YOUTUBE]


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## abcd (Apr 29, 2011)

Memos said:


> Oh damn. It was the editor reading a few lines from random parts of Dance with Dragons.
> 
> It was like this but a little different:
> [YOUTUBE]Ucagf1wt3Ic[/YOUTUBE]



ADWD spoilers from editor  

*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				some other website said:
			
		

> The first one is
> 
> 
> "The night was rank with the smell of man" (Prologue)
> ...


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## Mori` (Apr 29, 2011)

Starting to feel that GRRM just stalled this for so long because of the series tbh.

Oh look, my new book is being released right after the first is turned into a massive TV series, what handy publicity.


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## Felix (Apr 29, 2011)

I thought that, but I just think seeing his series turn into such a success just motivated him.
He was pretty excited and started writing more (Or at least started talking more about the book on his blog) after the castings were done and the filming started.


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## abcd (Apr 29, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> Starting to feel that GRRM just stalled this for so long because of the series tbh.
> 
> Oh look, my new book is being released right after the first is turned into a massive TV series, what handy publicity.



No complaints as long as the 

1) the book stands up to its expectations
2) the series motivates him to write other books faster


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## Felix (Apr 29, 2011)

abcd said:


> No complaints as long as the
> 
> *1) the book stands up to its expectations*
> 2) the series motivates him to write other books faster



I really doubt he wrote 1500 pages of compressed crap.
I have faith in it


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Apr 29, 2011)

Thought I'd be more ecstatic, but I'm just a mellow happy - a feels good man happy. 



abcd said:


> 2) the series motivates him to write other books faster



Hope so. Though he doesn't fill you with a lot of confidence when he's practically begging HBO to split Storm of Swords (if they do it) into two seasons, just so they won't catch up with him.


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## crazymtf (Apr 29, 2011)

Storm can be two part season, one shorter. Look at entourage season 3 part 1-2.


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## Felix (Apr 30, 2011)

Storm of Swords can't be one 10 episode season. It's just impossible


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## crazymtf (Apr 30, 2011)

Can be 16 episodes though. HBO has done it before with sopranos. FX has done it with the shield. It can be done!


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## abcd (May 3, 2011)

So he is in the times top 100 eh


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## DemonDragonJ (May 4, 2011)

Who here believes that a major character or several may die in _A Dance with Dragons?_ Major characters have died in each of the previous four books, so I expect that this one shall be no exception, as well.
*Spoiler*: _Questions relating to House Tully_ 



Edmure and Brynden are still alive as of _A Feast For Crows_, so what role might they have as the series progresses? And why did the Freys spare Edmure when they killed Catelyn and Rob? I presume that they did so because he is heir to Riverrun and thus gives them a connection to it?


How likely is it that Martin will finally answer the question of Jon Snow's parentage in this book? Will he do so in this book, or wait until a later book? Finally, what role might Mya Stone, Edric Storm, and Gendry, all illegitimate children of Robert Baratheon, have as the series progresses? I hope that they will have a more major role, but what, exactly, that role may be, I cannot be certain.


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## LifeMaker (May 4, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Can be 16 episodes though. HBO has done it before with sopranos. FX has done it with the shield. It can be done!



yeah i think GRRM said that Clash should be 12 and storm  even more, so 12 and 16 sounds about right and would tall with page lengths a pit better in terms of book size


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## Felix (May 4, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Who here believes that a major character or several may die in _A Dance with Dragons?_ Major characters have died in each of the previous four books, so I expect that this one shall be no exception, as well.
> *Spoiler*: _Questions relating to House Tully_
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, Edmure is probably alive due that. That way they guarantee that Riverrun is under control


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## Serp (May 4, 2011)

The Freys kept Edmure because he was Heir to Riverrun, with the issue of Jon's parentage that story kind of lays with Bran, whenever the Reeds return home and Howland is introduced we can learn the truth of the Tower of Joy then if ever as Howland is the only survivor.


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## The Imp (May 4, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Who here believes that a major character or several may die in _A Dance with Dragons?_ Major characters have died in each of the previous four books, so I expect that this one shall be no exception, as well.
> *Spoiler*: _Questions relating to House Tully_
> 
> 
> ...



I doubt he'll tell us everything about his parentage, but he'll throw in a few more clues.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 4, 2011)

One other plot thread in which I am particularly interested is
*Spoiler*: _Spoilers for 'A Feast for Crows'_ 



where Petyr plans to marry Sansa to Harrold Hardyng, the heir apparent to House Arryn, announce her true identity, and thus establish her as the ruler of both The Vale and Winterfell. Petyr has shown himself to be far more clever and competent than the other schemers of this series, so I am expecting this plan to be successful, at least for a certain duration.


Is anyone else interested in that particular plot line?


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## Nae'blis (May 5, 2011)

lol spoiler tags for a book written ten years ago.

If Littlefinger even tries to disrupt Varys' master plan, he will get smacked to death by a giant green dildo. Sansa wouldn't be ruler of anything, they aren't in Dorne.


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## Felix (May 5, 2011)

That's why I'm so interested in Sansa as a character, she is growing into a woman, and a woman who can get quite some power

Littlefinger


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## crazymtf (May 5, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Who here believes that a major character or several may die in _A Dance with Dragons?_ Major characters have died in each of the previous four books, so I expect that this one shall be no exception, as well.
> *Spoiler*: _Questions relating to House Tully_
> 
> 
> ...


Characters I see dying in the series 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Tyrion, Jamie, and Jon.


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## Nightfall (May 5, 2011)

All of them?....

That can't happen


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## Felix (May 5, 2011)

If the the rumor of the trio (Jon, Daenarys and Tyrion) is true, I doubt any of them dies.


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## The Imp (May 5, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> One other plot thread in which I am particularly interested is
> *Spoiler*: _Spoilers for 'A Feast for Crows'_
> 
> 
> ...



It might work, that is until Bran and Rickon enter the mix.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 5, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Characters I see dying in the series
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Why those charatcers? What about them makes you suspect that they may die?



Lυ Bυ said:


> It might work, that is until Bran and Rickon enter the mix.



That is true, except that they are both younger than Sansa and presumed dead by all of Westeros, including their surviving family members.

And on that subject, where did Rickon go, and what is he doing? I am hoping that he will return as a major badass, but being that he was very young when he departed, in order for such a thing to occur, either there would need to be a massive time skip, which is unlikely due to the numerous plot lines that would need to be explained, or Rickon would need to age rapidly in a short duration, as happened to Enzo and AndrAIa in _Reboot._ What does everyone else think will happen to Rickon in future books?


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## Felix (May 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why those charatcers? What about them makes you suspect that they may die?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Martin says he regrets not making all the Stark kids older like the series did. It's very hard for Rickon to have a major role in the plot.


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## αshɘs (May 6, 2011)

Can't wait for the reprints to come out. I want to start this series so badly, so far only heard good things about it.


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## Pineapples (May 6, 2011)

Rickon's in the North with Osha. I don't think they're headed to anywhere particular but rather just living from day to day. Though, I shall await the glorious day of Shaggydog's return.

I just googled the POV's for Dance and found that:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Melisandre has one , should be interesting though.


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## LifeMaker (May 6, 2011)

Felix said:


> Martin says he regrets not making all the Stark kids older like the series did. It's very hard for Rickon to have a major role in the plot.



yeah, although he has also stated they'll do what they were supposed to do, no matter how silly it makes them looking doing it as young as they are 

i know he'd do it different if he couldn start over.

it's all Dorne's fault


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## The Imp (May 6, 2011)

αshɘs said:


> Can't wait for the reprints to come out. I want to start this series so badly, so far only heard good things about it.



They already re-packaged the series in March in prep for the HBO show and so it matches the new ADwD cover.





DemonDragonJ said:


> That is true, except that they are both younger than Sansa and presumed dead by all of Westeros, including their surviving family members.



They're both boys so their claim is better than Sansa's even though she is older. They'll probably reunite the North once they come out of hiding and claim it (after Roose Bolton is dealt with).


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## DemonDragonJ (May 7, 2011)

The Imp said:


> They already re-packaged the series in March in prep for the HBO show and so it matches the new ADwD cover.



Why were the covers altered? I liked them as they were before, and I already own the first four books, so now I will need to purchase them again if I wish to have all the books with matching artwork. 



The Imp said:


> They're both boys so their claim is better than Sansa's even though she is older. They'll probably reunite the North once they come out of hiding and claim it (after Roose Bolton is dealt with).



Yes, but Littlefinger does not seem to believe that Sansa's gender will be a problem, then there was Cersei seeking to secure her own position of power, there is also Daenerys being the only known surviving Targaryen, then there are the Free Folk/Wildlings, who believe in equality between men and women, then there is Brienne, who can fight equally with most men, and then there is Melisandre, who is subservient to no man, so I feel that women may be experiencing an increase in power as the series progresses.

And in that subject, in the rare chance that Stannis does secure the Iron Throne, who will be his heir? His only child is his daughter, Shireen, and it does not seem likely to me that he will have any other children in the near future, so will he name Shireen as his heir?


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## The Imp (May 7, 2011)

Sansa's gender isn't a problem because everybody believes she is the last living Stark. Cersei is trying to consolidate power as Queen Regent, the mother of the King, not as an heir. Dany is also the last of her line. Yes, ASoIaF does have its fair share of strong female characters but that has nothing to do with succession in Westeros.

Shireen is his heir unless Stannis names someone else. 

As for the new covers, there is no point in buying the books all over again after ADWD because the artwork might change again in the future. I'm just going to have a mismatched set of books until the series is finished and then buy a matching set.


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## Nae'blis (May 8, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Characters I see dying in the series
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


I would hate that to happen, but in this series so far anyone can die. One of the "big three" characters has to die (before the end of the series) in order for suspense to be maintained, and I'm suspecting it to be Jon. Nothing would kick the "Jon is important because of R+L" crowd harder in the balls than that. And honestly, Jon and Daenerys can't both survive by series end.

But seriously, who can now tell us for sure who Jon's parents are? Selmy might know that their love was true and not a matter of rape, but seriously?



The Imp said:


> It might work, that is until Bran and Rickon enter the mix.


Idd


DemonDragonJ said:


> I am sorry for not remembering everything, but to what "master plan" of Varys' are you referring? Plus, Varys fled with Tyrion across the sea, to the the best of my recollection, so he is not in any position to carry out any plans in Westeros.


I would assume getting the Targaryens back onto the Iron Chair.

I didn't interpret it that Varys left with Tyrion, is this definite?


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## The Imp (May 8, 2011)

Idd?

Jon or Daenerys will end up sacrificing their lives in the war against the Others. At the very least I don't think Dany will win the Iron Throne or hold it at the end of the series. As for Jon's parents, I believe Howland Reed is the last guy alive who was at the Tower of Joy.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 8, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I didn't interpret it that Varys left with Tyrion, is this definite?



Perhaps my memory is inaccurate, as I just checked an online _wiki_ for this series, and while it does not specify what happened to Varys after he helped Tyrion escape, it does state that he certainly vanished from the main scene in King's Landing. Therefore, I expect that he still has some role to play as the series progresses.



Nae'blis said:


> I would hate that to happen, but in this series so far anyone can die. One of the "big three" characters has to die (before the end of the series) in order for suspense to be maintained, and I'm suspecting it to be Jon. Nothing would kick the "Jon is important because of R+L" crowd harder in the balls than that. And honestly, Jon and Daenerys can't both survive by series end.



I would rather Tyrion die, as I care for him the least out of the "big three," as you call them, but why do you say that "Jon and Daenerys cannot both survive to the end of the series?" And what makes those three charatcers the "big three," the most important characters of the series? And why must Martin "kick the fans in the balls," as you phrase it? Doing something that they would not like would alienate those fans, most likely, and I am certain that Martin would not wish to do that.


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## The Imp (May 8, 2011)

Qyburn takes Varys' position in King's Landing in AFFC, plus I read somewhere that Arya sees someone in Braavos who has the same physical description as Varys. So, he's probably a faceless man or he has some connection with them. 

The "big three" are the main fan favourites and probably the closest we will get to protagonists. Plus they had the most important POV's in their respective locations: Jon at the Wall, Tyrion in King's Landing, and Daenerys across the Narrow Sea.


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## Nae'blis (May 9, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Idd?
> 
> Jon or Daenerys will end up sacrificing their lives in the war against the Others. At the very least I don't think Dany will win the Iron Throne or hold it at the end of the series. As for Jon's parents, I believe Howland Reed is the last guy alive who was at the Tower of Joy.


idd=indeed

I don't remember Howland Reed. I'll see when I read the books tomorrow. but why don't you think daenerys?




DemonDragonJ said:


> I would rather Tyrion die, as I care for him the least out of the "big three," as you call them, but why do you say that "Jon and Daenerys cannot both survive to the end of the series?" And what makes those three charatcers the "big three," the most important characters of the series? And why must Martin "kick the fans in the balls," as you phrase it? Doing something that they would not like would alienate those fans, most likely, and I am certain that Martin would not wish to do that.


Martin pays the most attention to those characters. And as said above they are fan favs and have the most important POV's.  Tyrion is most peoples favourite character, including mine, I would be heartbroken.

It's not about alienating fans, it is just that everyone had guessed by the second book that Jon is Rhaegars son, so it's not so much of a mystery any more. I'm not sure about everyone else but I think GRRM is the type of spiteful cunt who would change canon just to "prove" that he is not paper-thin obvious. Kind of like Robert Jordan.


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## Felix (May 9, 2011)

I don't know what to do. Until now I've read the books in my mother language since they were finally translated to Portuguese over here, but when Dance comes out... I don't know if I can wait to the end of the year for the translation to get finished.

But then I will have (3) possible mismatched books
Gah 

I don't want to buy them twice, but I don't want spoilers.


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## The Imp (May 9, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> idd=indeed
> 
> I don't remember Howland Reed. I'll see when I read the books tomorrow. but why don't you think daenerys?



I just imagine Daenerys dying a hero in Westeros for defeating the Others (or playing some crucial role in their defeat) rather than sitting the iron throne after. She can't have any kids so her line will end with her. As for R+L=J I want him to keep his vows and stay Lord Commander of the Night's Watch so he won't be her heir. But most importantly I think it's too cliche for either of them getting the Throne. 

I expect more of a bittersweet ending from GRRM.


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## Felix (May 9, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> First, why is Tyrion the favorite of most fans? I am very fond of him myself, but not as much as certain other characters.
> 
> Second, what in the second book caused people to guess that Jon's parents were Rhaegar and Lyanna? I confess that I myself never considered that idea until I heard it from other people, so whatever material there was that lent credence to the idea must have been very subtle and brief.
> 
> ...



Ned's promise to Lyanna

- "Promise me Ned... Promise"
- The fact that Rhaegar kept her alive in the tower and was personally defending her for a long time
- The fact that Ned never wanted to talk at all about Jon's mother
- Everyone says he would never betray Catelyn
- He says "You might not have my name, but you have my blood". His blood is the same as Lyanna
- The fact that he does not enjoy Roberts obsession to kill every Targaryen alive.

And others, I can't remember now, but most people never got the idea that Lyanna was captive by force, nor that she was mistreated in the tower.


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## The Imp (May 9, 2011)

Rhaegar gave her the blue flower at the tourny at Harrenhal. And when Dany is in the House of the Undying she sees a vision of a blue flower sprouting out of a wall of ice, symbols connecting Jon to Lyanna. 

Rhaegar wanted a third child because of the prophecy, and the whole song of ice and fire thing is why I think he wanted Lyanna.

Read this for more in-depth analysis (You have to change the scope from no books read to AFFC).


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## Felix (May 9, 2011)

Yeah it's all there


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## Serp (May 10, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Rhaegar gave her the blue flower at the tourny at Harrenhal. And when Dany is in the House of the Undying she sees a vision of a blue flower sprouting out of a wall of ice, symbols connecting Jon to Lyanna.
> 
> Rhaegar wanted a third child because of the prophecy, and the whole song of ice and fire thing is why I think he wanted Lyanna.
> 
> Read this for more in-depth analysis (You have to change the scope from no books read to AFFC).



I for one believe in R+L=J, Rhaegar is my favourite Targeryen (points to Avatar) he was portrayed as a nice guy the nicest out of the whole clan barring Aemon. His own wife was dying from an illness, he named Lyanna queen of love and beauty at the tourney, it doesn't seem that he would kidnap her and well it was Littlefinger who said Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna so her older brother would go against the royal family to get her back which in itself is suicide.  The reason Littlefinger wanted that was because Brandon Stark (Brandon the Breathless I call him) was to marry Catelyn Tully the love of Petyr Balelish so he tried to get rid of Brandon to keep Cat for himself.

The whole song of ice and fire is a nice mystery which I hope more light is shed upon, (points to subscreen name) From Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen) comes a Snow (Jon).

But for the most boss characters I want to know and read more about:
Howland Reed
Blackfish
Coldhands
The sand snakes and any connection to the Sphinx.
Barristan the Boss
Rickon
The others such as Bran, Tyrion and Dany are a given, but these are ones I look forward to. 

How I want Rickon to be introduced again, my own fan musings.

Epilouge.


> _The guardsmen were on rounds there was messages and warnings about wolves roaming the lands as well the Brotherhood without Banners it was a tough time and the early winter snows were making it harder to manage through the long nights of nearly endless darkness. It was then they heard a noise a rustling, they held their swords out and pointed.
> "Who goes there."
> From the bushes a small boy, he was dirty, his hair wild he looked half wolf himself as did many of the peasants this side of the trident. But there was a cold defiance in his eyes, cold fury one might say.
> "Who are you boy, where are your parents?"
> ...



Just something like that, Rickon and Shaggydog fucking shit up.


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## User Name (May 10, 2011)




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## DemonDragonJ (May 10, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> How I want Rickon to be introduced again, my own fan musings.
> 
> Epilouge.
> 
> ...



That would be so very awesome, Serperion; I would definitely like to see something like that happen.


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## masamune1 (May 10, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyG1BiArd4&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4IrK7MkBYY&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]


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## Nae'blis (May 12, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Rhaegar gave her the blue flower at the tourny at Harrenhal. And when Dany is in the House of the Undying she sees a vision of a blue flower sprouting out of a wall of ice, symbols connecting Jon to Lyanna.
> 
> Rhaegar wanted a third child because of the prophecy, and the whole song of ice and fire thing is why I think he wanted Lyanna.
> 
> Read this for more in-depth analysis (You have to change the scope from no books read to AFFC).


Idd

I love how Varys says that the comet is a symbol of "fire and blood" to come, when he was speaking to Tyrion in book two.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 13, 2011)

I noticed that the very final chapter told from Ned's perspective was of him in the prison cell, which did not provide a very satisfying or dramatically appropriate conclusion to his story, at least not for me. After I read that chapter, I was hoping for one more chapter from Ned's perspective, one that would provide a much more dramatically satisfying conclusion to his story, and I was displeased when that did not happen. Was anyone else bothered by that?

I also noticed that there have been very one-on-one duels for personal reasons in this series; i.e., very few characters have been able to settle personal grudges that they have. Bronn's fight in the Vale was not for a personal grudge, and Oberyn fighting Gregor was the only instance that I can recall of a character being able to settle a personal grudge of theirs, and  with Gregor being apparently dead, it also means that Sandor now will never be able to settle his grudge with his brother (although Sandor is apparently dead, as well). I was personally hoping for an epic duel between Joffrey and Robb, as they were among the most prominent members of their houses and were implied to not be very fond of each other in the brief duration that they were together in Winterfell, but I was sorely disappointed when such a duel never actually occurred. Has anyone else been disappointed by numerous personal grudges in this series not being settled?

Felix: Ned not wanting to kill all the Targaryen's does not automatically support the idea that Jon is Rhaegar's son, because Ned was a very rational person and knew that blood relationships do not make a person like their kin; he believed that Daenerys would not be the same as the other Targaryens, so it would be irrational and zealous to attempt to kill her unless she made a hostile move first.


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## The Imp (May 13, 2011)

Robb vs Joff would be the most boring duel ever. Robb is an average swordsman at best and Joffrey shouldn't even be wielding a sword. 

Also Ned's final POV was fine the way it is. The noble and honourable Eddard Stark dies filled with doubt and regret over his actions. Ned's execution wouldn't be as dramatic and shocking if GRRM was making a conventional ending to his story.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 13, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Robb vs Joff would be the most boring duel ever. Robb is an average swordsman at best and Joffrey shouldn't even be wielding a sword.



That is something that I did not like about them; if they were so important to the plot, why were they not better fighters? How could they expect to lead armies when some of their own soldiers were better than them?



The Imp said:


> Also Ned's final POV was fine the way it is. *The noble and honourable Eddard Stark dies filled with doubt and regret over his actions. *Ned's execution wouldn't be as dramatic and shocking if GRRM was making a conventional ending to his story.



That is *exactly* what I did not like about Ned's death, and, by extension, Martin, for having written the scene that way; how could such an awesome character live his last moments in such an inglorious and pathetic manner? I was hoping that Ned would be strong and confident, even when chained and in a submissive position, with no doubts about his actions, and then openly declare Joffrey as the offspring of Cersei and Jaime just before having his head severed from his body. How could Martin have done such a thing? Ned deserved a far better death than that, in my mind.


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## Cyphon (May 13, 2011)

Finally got my books back and am reading through for just the 2nd time. About 300 pages in and so far my favorites are definitely Tyrion and Arya.

One thing that popped out at me was how I wish there was the potential for prequels or side books to the main series. I would really like to see more involving the DOOM and the time before and around that occuring. I would also like to see some dragon fights involving the Targaryen's as well as Ned and Rob in their war days. More specifically Robert being bad ass with his big hammer. 

Even with watching the new show on HBO and having read once I am excited to keep reading through and learn more about the story that I have forgotten or didn't pick up on the first time.


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## Emperor Joker (May 13, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That is something that I did not like about them; if they were so important to the plot, why were they not better fighters? How could they expect to lead armies when some of their own soldiers were better than them?
> 
> 
> 
> That is *exactly* what I did not like about Ned's death, and, by extension, Martin, for having written the scene that way; how could such an awesome character live his last moments in such an inglorious and pathetic manner? I was hoping that Ned would be strong and confident, even when chained and in a submissive position, with no doubts about his actions, and then openly declare Joffrey as the offspring of Cersei and Jaime just before having his head severed from his body. How could Martin have done such a thing? Ned deserved a far better death than that, in my mind.



Maybe because they're still in training...Besides Joffrey's not exactly the kind of character who would sit still and listen to a sword isntructor in the first place.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 13, 2011)

Emperor Joker said:


> Maybe because they're still in training...Besides Joffrey's not exactly the kind of character who would sit still and listen to a sword isntructor in the first place.



That is another thing that I disliked about Joffrey; he was supposed to be a major antagonist in the series, but he was too emotional, too temperamental, and a spoiled brat; if he had been more calm and sinister in his personality, I could have taken him far more seriously as an antagonist.


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## The Imp (May 13, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That is something that I did not like about them; if they were so important to the plot, why were they not better fighters? How could they expect to lead armies when some of their own soldiers were better than them?



A leader doesn't have to be the bravest, strongest, fastest, smartest, or wisest person in the army to lead them. Neither does importance to the plot equate to battle prowess. He needs to be able to get others to follow him whether it's through his ideals, accomplishments, right or by using fear.

Robb's direwolf more than made up for his swordsmanship in keeping his men in line (for the most part), and Joffrey was always a figurehead that couldn't lead an army if he wanted to.



> That is *exactly* what I did not like about Ned's death, and, by extension, Martin, for having written the scene that way; how could such an awesome character live his last moments in such an inglorious and pathetic manner? I was hoping that Ned would be strong and confident, even when chained and in a submissive position, with no doubts about his actions, and then openly declare Joffrey as the offspring of Cersei and Jaime just before having his head severed from his body. How could Martin have done such a thing? Ned deserved a far better death than that, in my mind.



Because Martin is trying to make a point. Honour will only get you killed in this world. Also a few chapters before his execution, Aemon talks to Jon about the crossroad where every man has to choose between honour and love. Jon viewed Ned as the epitome of honour. The irony is Ned forsakes his honour and chooses to try to save his daughters. It's a fitting end to his story.

And it shows that Martin's world isn't a fairy tale. I don't think you fully grasp that.


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## masamune1 (May 13, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That is another thing that I disliked about Joffrey; *he was supposed to be a major antagonist in the series,* but he was too emotional, too temperamental, and a spoiled brat; if he had been more calm and sinister in his personality, I could have taken him far more seriously as an antagonist.



I don't think he was ever meant to be that. It was blatantly clear he was a spoiled brat since his introduction. Not to mention he was, what, 14?


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## Emperor Joker (May 13, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That is another thing that I disliked about Joffrey; he was supposed to be a major antagonist in the series, but he was too emotional, too temperamental, and a spoiled brat; if he had been more calm and sinister in his personality, I could have taken him far more seriously as an antagonist.



That's where your wrong. Joffrey was an antagonist yes, but he wasn't a major one, he was far to vein and spoiled to be a major one, and it was quite clear from the get go that he was a figure head. 

Your also missing the fact that he was still a child and a spoild rotten one at that. mixing those traits with the fact that he just ascended to the throne, of course he's going to be emotional.

Do you honestly expect a child to be some master schemer and tactician?


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## DemonDragonJ (May 13, 2011)

The Imp said:


> A leader doesn't have to be the bravest, strongest, fastest, smartest, or wisest person in the army to lead them. Neither does importance to the plot equate to battle prowess. He needs to be able to get others to follow him whether it's through his ideals, accomplishments, right or by using fear.
> 
> Robb's direwolf more than made up for his swordsmanship in keeping his men in line (for the most part), and Joffrey was always a figurehead that couldn't lead an army if he wanted to.
> 
> ...



Your first point, about leaders, I can understand, and agree with.

Your second point, about honor getting a person killed in this world, I can understand, but not agree with; Ned should have stood by his beliefs and accepted his death with confidence and courage; I certainly would have done so if I had been in his position. I will never change my mind that Ned's death was the worst possible death that he coudl have received and that it could easily have been an awesome death if only _a few words had been different._ Would it really have been that difficult for martin to have written Ned as accepting his death and not breaking down and accepting Joffrey as his king?

Your third point, where you say that "Martin's world is not a fairy tale," and that "I don't fully grasp that," offends me. I know perfectly well that this series is far darker and not as idealistic as other fantasy series are; after having read all four books of the series, of course I would have grasped that theme, but that does not mean that I have to like that theme. I have no problem with an author who kills off main characters to keep the audience in suspense, or with a series where things do not work out for the protagonists and where their situation seems hopeless, but I _do_ have a problem with an author who makes a character well-known for a certain trait betray their own beliefs at exactly the moment when they needed to stand by those beliefs, or with an author who gives very anti-climactic deaths to important characters, such as with Viserys, or who crushes the audiences hopes after spending so much building up toward a conclusion, as happened with Doran ruined Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella; I was _very_ displeased by that.



Emperor Joker said:


> Do you honestly expect a child to be some master schemer and tactician?



No, although Azula from _Avatar: the Last Airbender_ was only a year or two older than Joffrey, and she was, in my mind, a far better antagonist than he was, although that was likely the choice of the story writers, in that case. And Sansa certainly seemed to perceive him as a major antagonist, and because she is a major protagonist, that makes Joffrey a major antagonist from the perspective of the audience.

And on _that_ subject, I was displeased that, apart from Tyrion, very few named characters who were close to Joffrey openly rebuked him. I was sincerely hoping that Sansa would finally become more courageous and openly declare that he was a monster and that she hated him at some point in the series, so I was again displeased when that never happened.


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## The Imp (May 13, 2011)

Except Ned did not know he was going to be killed. He thought he would be pardoned and sent to the wall if he made some empty statements proclaiming Joffrey the rightful king and himself a traitor. He was putting his children before his honour. How can he prepare for his death when he doesn't know it's coming? Also, GRRM was setting up Ned to die a dishonourable death through the dialogue between Aemon and Jon.

Viserys was a stepping stone that helped build Daenerys' character but he's far from the important character you make him out to be. I don't know why you are expecting all of these characters to die heroic deaths when you say you understand the type of story Martin is trying to create. Some of the changes you are proposing (Ned's death) go directly against that theme.

Also I haven't gotten to AFfC yet in my re-read so some of the details are a bit vague in my mind, but Doran's plan to bring Daenerys back to Westeros is much more interesting than Arianne trying to create a short term civil war using Myrcella.


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## Pineapples (May 13, 2011)

Ned is a father with two of his kids in Lannister grounds. In his last moments, it seemed to me that he just cared more for his daughters than  his honor. There was absolutely no way that Ned could have been confident at all, knowing that his daughters could been so easily harmed/killed if he said or did an erroneous thing. If Arya and Sansa were still in Winterfell, Ned's ending would obviously be different.

Joffrey doesn't really need to a be a sneaky, manipulative antagonist. There's already enough of those in Westeros. On another point, of course there would be very few to openly rebuke an impulsive, arguably insane king. If any would do such, there head would end up decorated in pikes. 

On another note, I had some curiosities on certain subjects (though unfortunately we shall never see):

How would Tywin react to Joffrey's true parentage?
Who would be a worse king, Joffrey or Viserys?


----------



## The Imp (May 13, 2011)

Tywin's a smart guy and with rumours of Joffrey's lineage in question across the 7 kingdoms I'm sure he'd come to the same conclusion that most people did. Plus he knows Stannis is a stickler for justice and isn't the type to lie. He will tell you the cold hard truth. Tywin probably just chose to ignore it and pretend he didn't know what was going on.


----------



## Cyphon (May 13, 2011)

Felix said:


> Ned's promise to Lyanna
> 
> - "Promise me Ned... Promise"
> - The fact that Rhaegar kept her alive in the tower and was personally defending her for a long time
> ...



I wouldn't have remembered this either except for my current re-read.

Ned tells Arya that she looks like (or reminds him of....Or both) Lyanna. That by itself means nothing but she is also the only one of the kids besides Jon who they say looks like a Stark. All of the other kids take after Cat and the Tully's.


Edit: I assume you are connecting Jon being a Targaryen or whatever. I am interested to continue reading and see what else comes up possibly connecting it after seeing you all discussing it.


----------



## Borel (May 14, 2011)

Pineapples said:


> Who would be a worse king, Joffrey or Viserys?


Maybe Viserys. It's been a while since I've read AGoT, but I remember him being exceedingly cruel. Sure, so was Joffrey, but Viserys seemed more... mature... in his cruelty, whereas Joffrey seemed like he was mainly showing off. Maybe he'd grow out of that phase eventually?

Additionally, Joffrey seemed like someone who could be manipulated (and so the harm caused by him would be minimized) whereas Viserys didn't.

Just my two cents, but as I said, it's been a while since I've read the first book.


----------



## Nae'blis (May 14, 2011)

Who do you think Joffrey was showing off to?


----------



## Borel (May 14, 2011)

I don't know. Maybe Sansa. Or his mother. Or himself, to build up self-esteem.


----------



## The Imp (May 14, 2011)

Apparently Barristan Selmy will be a POV in ADwD.


----------



## Coteaz (May 14, 2011)

I love Barristan the Bold. 

He and Davos Seaworth are the only true (living) knights in the series.


----------



## Nae'blis (May 14, 2011)

you want to try a bit harder to sound like Sansa?


----------



## Pineapples (May 14, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Apparently Barristan Selmy will be a POV in ADwD.




I didn't expect that at all. He's one of my favorite characters so this will be quite a treat. If I'm correct, barring the prologue guy in CoK, he's the oldest POV that the series will (so far) have.


----------



## Snickers (May 15, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> I love Barristan the Bold.
> 
> He and Davos Seaworth are the only true (living) knights in the series.



Brienne of Tarth


----------



## Dionysus (May 15, 2011)

Anyone ever seen these? Cover art for the Japanese versions of the books.



Tyrion looks rather demonic, I think.


----------



## Felix (May 15, 2011)

Snickers said:


> Brienne of Tarth



We said living knights


----------



## Coteaz (May 15, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> you want to try a bit harder to sound like Sansa?


Oh, sorry. 

Gregor Clegane is my favorite character. I love despicable monsters who rape and slaughter innocents. I am so hardcore.


----------



## Banhammer (May 15, 2011)

So I'm reading the books on account of the show coming out and I'm knocking round the part where Robb gets killed at the frey weding 


Damn it.


You know, Robb had just made it into a personal favorite list, but he had to ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) it all up for some girl...

Guess I'll stick with Brienne followed by Tyrion again...
Good God, if something happens to my OTP I will RAGEQUITE ASOIAF


----------



## Banhammer (May 15, 2011)

just read ygritte's death. All the indifrence I had towards jhon snow, I now have in love for Ygritte




*Spoiler*: __ 



The defenders on the walls began firing their crossbows at Belwas, but the bolts fell
short or skittered harmlessly along the ground. The eunuch turned his back on the steeltipped
rain, lowered his trousers, squatted, and shat in the direction of the city. He
wiped himself with Oznak’s striped cloak, and paused long enough to loot the hero’s
corpse and put the dying horse out of his agony before trudging back to the olive grove.




Fuck danny. I want to read a story about this guy


----------



## The Imp (May 15, 2011)

You don't like Robb anymore because he made a mistake? I'm surprised it changed your opinion of the guy so much.


----------



## Serp (May 15, 2011)

Strong Belwas is strong and badass! I admit I only enjoy Dany chapters for her entourage and not her, Barristan the Boss, Jorah Fucking Mormont, Dragons, Strong Belwas all make up for Dany.


----------



## Banhammer (May 15, 2011)

The Imp said:


> You don't like Robb anymore because he made a mistake? I'm surprised it changed your opinion of the guy so much.



Here you have the young wolf. Righteous son of stark, wise beyond his years with mettle forged by cold and pain, comes down from the norse to deliver a viking-like retribution to the hateful lanisters, and in all of his youth, does his battles so in such an ingenious wit that shames that warhound tywin and impresses tyrion to no end.
He and his direwolf comand the respect and devotion of his banner man, even though deep inside he's hiding his own insecurities, and truth is, serves for his people.
He wouldn't give a flying fuck about being king if it weren't for what the men called for. The role he needs to play on the war that everyone but him has started.
He is, what just about every single other character in this story is not.
And then he finds some girl off pannel and decides from now on that being a dumbass is more important then the frey, and then proceeds to walk onto what is clearly a trap.
I mean, this is exactly what Sansa did..
Not that it isn't a typical thing for a sixteen year old to do, it is, it's just.. blaargh. Robb   I am disappoint.


Also, Joff is dead. Yes :33
Although I always hoped he would die at the end of the series alone in the woods when a certain pack of wolves led by a certain larger gray wolf that we haven't seen for a while would meet him for supper


----------



## The Imp (May 15, 2011)

He fucked up because Ned raised him to be honourable. He finds out his brothers are dead and while he's being emotional he makes the mistake of opening up to Jeyne and sleeping with her. He gives up his honour to save hers. It cost him the war but it's not like he did it on a whim.

Also he went to the Twins to try to mend things by marrying off Edmure. He didn't know what a spiteful cunt Walder Frey was or how ambitious Bolton was, and he got betrayed. Plus he probably needed the men and passageway across the river to win back the North. Robb has been way too optimistic throughout the war and he was terrible when it came to politics. 

You see him make mistake after mistake, but you can't help but root for the guy. And it all culminates in the Red Wedding. It's a tragic end to his story but in hindsight I like it a lot more than when I first read it. What made it even better imo was catching some of the foreshadowing  in ACoK (the king with a wolf's head in Dany's visions in the House of the Undying) on my re-read.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (May 15, 2011)

Granted, Cat didn't help his image as an invincible werewolf general much with what she did. If my mom went behind my back to release the most valuable hostage of all time for nothing, my bannermen would start going wild and stabbing me in the back too. Gave Tywin more of a reason to plot the whole damn thing too. 

The two of them made their biggest mistakes when caused by grief . . .  blame the guy who caused that grief - Theon. 

Or again, blame Robb for sending him. 
Can you use grief as an excuse for that fuck up?


----------



## Banhammer (May 15, 2011)

It's just.. anticlimatic, that's all. Although I guess I'm quite far away from the story's climax, but still.
I wanted Robb to OWN. Ridiculously so. Like a favorite character should. He owned but he never got to OWN.
And don't get me started on Catlyn. She's either really good or really stupid. I mean I'm sad she's dead but it was high time someone sent her to the kitchen, and now  I guess she also got a kick in the buttocks

I sense a ressurection though. Or at least a long term ghost. Maybe Ned will come back
At least the draco malfoy wannabe and the calamari asshole are dead too :33


----------



## Felix (May 15, 2011)

Everytime I try to forgive Cat as a character, I remind myself of all the shit she did
God I hate her.


----------



## Banhammer (May 15, 2011)

Good, I'm not the only one.

People go on about how much of a strong woman she was, but she was only really strong when she was doing something stupid, such as telling ned to go south, leaving winterfell to her fifteen year old, capturing tyrion or releasing Jamie.

Okay, maybe some of them made sense at the time, but holy shit, those things were stupid.

I mean, all the way back from her sister's shenanigans with jon arryn's death. This series would be but a book long if it weren't for Catelyn Goddamned Tully-Stark .




-------------------------

Is it just me or is everyone being really dense about the wildlings? Sure, they're attacking, but no one is caring to find out _why_
Something tells me they're just running from the Others and if they let him in the night's watch, things would probably run much smoother.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (May 15, 2011)

BOOK 4 SPOILERS!!!

*Spoiler*: _Great thing is, there are worse hard-to-forgive characters than Cat_ 



Lady Stoneheart, lol - that woman really not doing herself any favors.


----------



## Banhammer (May 15, 2011)

Needs more queen of Thorns.


----------



## Banhammer (May 15, 2011)

Bronn X Tyrion is the OTP
True bromance there.


----------



## Mori` (May 15, 2011)

I have decided to re-read the whole series before DwD afterall, guess I'm a sucker.

Gave almost my whole "library" to a cute second hand bookstore a few years ago because I had to free up some space, shall have to buy some second-hand copies back lol.


----------



## Pineapples (May 15, 2011)

Bronn better come back and do something in the later books. He's too badass to be left to rot.

Oh dear, at one point I almost hated Catelyn more than Joffrey. Her handling of Jaime was particularly boneheaded. Although I feel like it'll be a lot harder to hate her in the show since the actress seems to have an aura of likability  and elegance.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 15, 2011)

What might happen to house Frey as the series progresses? I believe that they deserve harsh punishment for their cruel betrayal of House Stark, and even if they do not suffer a harsh fate, I believe that very few people in Westeros will ever trust them again, after the treachery that they committed.


----------



## Nightfall (May 16, 2011)

Probably some family Coup d'?tat with Walder getting the short end of the stick this time.


----------



## Banhammer (May 16, 2011)

probably the surviving four direwolves kill all of the freys one by one.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 16, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> probably the surviving four direwolves kill all of the freys one by one.



That would be immensely satisfying to read. 

On the subject of the direwolves, what happened to Nymeria, Arya's direwolf? And why is it that she never sought out Arya, so that they could be reunited? Nymeria would certainly have been a valuable asset for Arya, and it seems to be rather unfair to Arya, from my perspective, that she has lost her direwolf while the other living direwolves (Shaggydog, Summer, and Ghost) are still accompanying their human companions. What does everyone else say about that?


----------



## Borel (May 16, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That would be immensely satisfying to read.
> 
> On the subject of the direwolves, what happened to Nymeria, Arya's direwolf? And why is it that she never sought out Arya, so that they could be reunited? Nymeria would certainly have been a valuable asset for Arya, and it seems to be rather unfair to Arya, from my perspective, that she has lost her direwolf while the other living direwolves (Shaggydog, Summer, and Ghost) are still accompanying their human companions. What does everyone else say about that?


If I remember correctly, there were rumours about a savage wolf pack lead by a gigantic wolf terrorizing the countryside in the last few books. That's probably her.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 16, 2011)

Borel said:


> If I remember correctly, there were rumours about a savage wolf pack lead by a gigantic wolf terrorizing the countryside in the last few books. That's probably her.



Yes, I remember that now; hopefully, those wolves will make life difficult for the enemies of House Stark.


----------



## Banhammer (May 16, 2011)

Borel said:


> If I remember correctly, there were rumours about a savage wolf pack lead by a gigantic wolf terrorizing the countryside in the last few books. That's probably her.



Arya dreams about Nymeria and the pack all the time. I'm sad to hear by Dancing With Dragons she still hasn't reunited.


----------



## Nae'blis (May 16, 2011)

That's also part of the reason she fucked up her training and ended up blind.

I hope she doesn't actually become blind.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 16, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> That's also part of the reason she fucked up her training and ended up blind.
> 
> I hope she doesn't actually become blind.



I also hope that; being blinded would severely hinder her extraordinary ability to survive and endure danger that had kept her alive for the entire series thus far.


----------



## Serp (May 16, 2011)

Lack of sight is a path to nothingness, it is known.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 16, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Lack of sight is a path to nothingness, it is known.



I am certain that Arya could adapt to being blind, but I still hope that she recovers from it, as I do not understand why she became blind; what caused her to go blind, again? I cannot recall what it was.


----------



## Nae'blis (May 17, 2011)

In Braavos she killed a deserter from the Nights Watch, and was given a drink as punishment by her instructor which made her blind.


----------



## crazymtf (May 17, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> Here you have the young wolf. Righteous son of stark, wise beyond his years with mettle forged by cold and pain, comes down from the norse to deliver a viking-like retribution to the hateful lanisters, and in all of his youth, does his battles so in such an ingenious wit that shames that warhound tywin and impresses tyrion to no end.
> He and his direwolf comand the respect and devotion of his banner man, even though deep inside he's hiding his own insecurities, and truth is, serves for his people.
> He wouldn't give a flying fuck about being king if it weren't for what the men called for. The role he needs to play on the war that everyone but him has started.
> He is, what just about every single other character in this story is not.
> ...


Sir. Pussy is strong. Pussy conquers almost all. Didn't you learn anything from the evil bitch Cersai?


----------



## Serp (May 17, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Sir. Pussy is strong. Pussy conquers almost all. Didn't you learn anything from the evil bitch Cersai?



The things I do for pussy


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Sir. Pussy is strong. Pussy conquers almost all. Didn't you learn anything from the evil bitch Cersai?



EARTH
FIRE
WIND
WATER
AND PUSSY
BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED I AM CAPTAIN LANNISTER


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2011)

I was extreemly unfond of the martell and willing to disregard them as corner cowards with a gay banner.

But then I read the the Prince Oberyn vs The Mountain fight 


A new challenger arises

Edit: Or not 
-------------------

Finishing SoS


Stannis Saves the day?
Really?
Fucking Stannis?
Good grief. I did not see that coming. Nice twist though. Nice twist.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (May 17, 2011)

The Viper vs. The Mountain - Best fight in the books, hands down.


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2011)

"Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold."

Fucking lol. I would have loled harder if he did though



Also, have not made up my mind on mellisandre? Crazy secretly evil bitch or justified lunatic zealot?

Hmmmm

I'm going with evil bitch 

I mean the clues are all there
Not to mention the sword is called lightbringer
For y'all who don't know lightbringer in Hebrew (or was it latin?) is spelled L-u-c-i-f-e-r.
All this fire talk? Me thinks she's the bad guy


----------



## crazymtf (May 17, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> The Viper vs. The Mountain - Best fight in the books, hands down.



Fuck yes. I'm waiting for this scene in the show.


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2011)

it's gonna be a long wait :-/


----------



## Coteaz (May 17, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> Also, have not made up my mind on mellisandre? Crazy secretly evil bitch or justified lunatic zealot?


The Others are real, so the 'Great Other' is likely real as well and R'hllor is its nemesis. 

Melisandre is of the classic 'ends justify the means' mindset - she'll sacrifice as many babies as needed to defeat the Others.


----------



## Nightfall (May 17, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> "Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold."
> 
> Fucking lol. I would have loled harder if he did though
> 
> ...



I think she's being deceived or is at the very least misguided. Aemon sheds some light on it in A feast for crows.

The great other is probably a deity, but I'm not too sure about the Lord of Light.


----------



## Cyphon (May 17, 2011)

Just finished reading AGoT for the 2nd time. 

Definitely one of my favorite fantasy books out of all I have read. Possibly even the top spot. Obviously I need to get a 2nd go at the other Song of Ice and Fire books and probably a 2nd read of some of the other series I really enjoyed but man.....Just loved this book.


----------



## choco bao bao (May 18, 2011)

I got a copy of Game of Thrones a few weeks ago and just started reading it. I'm not really into the Fantasy genre because I get confused with names of places and characters easily especially if they aren't real, but I have to say that the book's drawing me in.


----------



## dream (May 18, 2011)

Veronica, 

Keep on reading, ASoIAF just keeps on getting better.


----------



## choco bao bao (May 18, 2011)

Yes I am reading it right now, at work


----------



## Felix (May 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *What right did her instructor have to do that? What Arya did there was none of his business, so his punishment seems to be completely arbitrary and tyrannical to me (in the case that anyone here is wondering, I am very fond of accusing any rule or punishment that I find to be too harsh or strict of being "tyrannical).*
> 
> As for Robb's situation, I do not at all blame him; the fault is completely with Lord Walder for being a major jackass and delivering what I consider to be the epitome of disproportionate retribution in this series.
> 
> ...



It was his business
Arya accepted the training with one condition, leave behind the person she was
She killed the night watch deserter as Arya Stark not as the new unknown assassin (She had a new nickname didn't she?). She failed to comply, as such, she was punished


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 18, 2011)

Felix said:


> It was his business
> Arya accepted the training with one condition, leave behind the person she was
> She killed the night watch deserter as Arya Stark not as the new unknown assassin (She had a new nickname didn't she?). She failed to comply, as such, she was punished



Why did she kill the deserter from the Night's Watch? I cannot recall that detail. Why did she accept the training, when it had such a strict condition as that? Casting aside one's identity is not an easy task to perform; and that still was an awfully harsh punishment for her action, in my mind.


----------



## Nayrael (May 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:
			
		

> Why did she kill the deserter from the Night's Watch? I cannot recall that detail.



He was a traitor, dishonorable and was practically enemy of her beloved half-brother. 
In short she hated his guts and getting used to violence, she simply decided to kill him.

However, I don't think she was really punished. At worst, this phase of her training was moved forward. Would fit well with their training methods anyway.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (May 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> On that subject, has it ever been clearly stated who poisoned Joffrey? If not, I hope that that mystery is soon solved.



*Spoiler*: __ 



My memories a bit fuzzy but wasn't it the old Tyrell lady and indirectly Sansa?





> Why did she accept the training, when it had such a strict condition as that? Casting aside one's identity is not an easy task to perform; and that still was an awfully harsh punishment for her action, in my mind.


The Faceless Men are hired killers. I doubt they're supposed to go around freely killing.


----------



## Banhammer (May 18, 2011)

So I'm reading the index for a Feast For Crows, and I see no Tyrion chapter


----------



## Memos (May 18, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> So I'm reading the index for a Feast For Crows, and I see no Tyrion chapter



No Tyrion, Jon or Dany chapters. When I saw this I had a bit of trouble starting to read it, but by the end it became my second favourite of the four.


----------



## Nayrael (May 18, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> So I'm reading the index for a Feast For Crows, and I see no Tyrion chapter



Half of characters won't appear until ADWD (which for most part happens at the same time as AFFC  ). But you are lucky: you won't need to wait around 10 years to see Tyrion like many others XD


----------



## Memos (May 18, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Half of characters won't appear until ADWD (which for most part happens at the same time as AFFC  ). But you are lucky: you won't need to wait around 10 years to see Tyrion like many others XD



I only caught up to the books about two months ago, so when I read someone mentioning how it had been 10 years since a Tyrion chapter, it blew my mind.


----------



## abcd (May 18, 2011)

Reading the index is like spoiling urself .... If a charachter's pov disappears he/she/it might be dead


----------



## Cyphon (May 18, 2011)

Starting _A Clash of Kings_ now. Done the Prologue and the first Arya chapter. 

I find it odd that even though I have read it once already and know a lot of details this book doesn't have me pulled in like _A Game of Thrones_ in the early goings. I would say it is mostly due to the Prologue being about characters who either didn't exist or weren't around in the first book. Just thought it was interesting that with all of the excitement I have for a re-read I still kind of "feel off" in the first 2 parts of the 2nd book.


----------



## The Imp (May 18, 2011)

Memos said:


> No Tyrion, Jon or Dany chapters. When I saw this I had a bit of trouble starting to read it, but by the end it became my second favourite of the four.



Really?

AFfC was the only book in the series that I put down and didn't touch for a couple of months. While reading it, I only looked forward to the Jaime, Cersei and Sam (hoping to get more info from Aemon) chapters, and the occasional Sansa and Arya chapter.



abcd said:


> Reading the index is like spoiling urself .... If a charachter's pov disappears he/she/it might be dead



The back of the novels can spoil you pretty badly if you are really early into the series.


----------



## Nae'blis (May 18, 2011)

No Tyrion chapters? Well shit.


----------



## Splintered (May 18, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> No Tyrion chapters? Well shit.



He had to split the POVs.  Originally it was suppose to be one book, but it was so much writing it went into two different books.  Apparently Dance with Dragons will be the largest.

You'll be getting them in the next book.  Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Davos, Asha  
*Spoiler*: __ 



And I think Theon under a new name


----------



## choco bao bao (May 18, 2011)

It's funny but from the first time I glanced at this title, I've always thought it read "A Song of Fire and Ice" instead of "Ice and Fire".  Until a few days ago when I properly read it, I was stunned I had gotten it all wrong .____.


----------



## LifeMaker (May 19, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Starting _A Clash of Kings_ now. Done the Prologue and the first Arya chapter.
> 
> I find it odd that even though I have read it once already and know a lot of details this book doesn't have me pulled in like _A Game of Thrones_ in the early goings. I would say it is mostly due to the Prologue being about characters who either didn't exist or weren't around in the first book. Just thought it was interesting that with all of the excitement I have for a re-read I still kind of "feel off" in the first 2 parts of the 2nd book.



It's a bit weaker than aGoT and aSoS i'd say. But it does have some memorable moments *grin*


----------



## Cyphon (May 19, 2011)

LifeMaker said:


> It's a bit weaker than aGoT and aSoS i'd say. But it does have some memorable moments *grin*



At page 130 now and Tyrion and Arya chapters really picked up for me. Moreso Tyrion getting to Kings Landing and handeling business. 

Obviously I will save my final judgement on where it stands until the end.

Quick question though (for anyone).

Did Mirri Daz Murr (is that her name?) intentionally kill Drogo or afterward just accept his death by pointing out all of the good that would come from it?

I wasn't clear on if he was implying she did something to kill him or simply that her healing had failed, due in part to Drogo's own negligence.


----------



## Nae'blis (May 19, 2011)

Pherenike said:


> It's funny but from the first time I glanced at this title, I've always thought it read "A Song of Fire and Ice" instead of "Ice and Fire".  Until a few days ago when I properly read it, I was stunned I had gotten it all wrong .____.


I bought the first audiobook a while ago and they do call it _A Song of Fire and Ice_


----------



## masamune1 (May 19, 2011)

Splintered said:


> He had to split the POVs.  Originally it was suppose to be one book, but it was so much writing it went into two different books.  Apparently Dance with Dragons will be the largest.



Its a little shorter than _A Storm of Swords_, I think. 




Cyphon said:


> Did Mirri Daz Murr (is that her name?) intentionally kill Drogo or afterward just accept his death by pointing out all of the good that would come from it?
> 
> I wasn't clear on if he was implying she did something to kill him or simply that her healing had failed, due in part to Drogo's own negligence.



She didn't kill him- Daenary's did that. She just saved his life but brought him back wrong, as a kind of living, mindless zombie. 

Pretty sure she did it on purpose. It was revenge- the Dothraki had massacred and enslaved her people.


----------



## Cyphon (May 19, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> She didn't kill him- Daenary's did that. She just saved his life but brought him back wrong, as a kind of living, mindless zombie.
> 
> *Pretty sure she did it on purpose*. It was revenge- the Dothraki had massacred and enslaved her people.



This is kind of what I was wondering. Initially when she treated him with the bandages and stuff did she use real healing things or did she attempt to make it worse.

I know he had taken off her original medicine because it burned or itched but then later after he came back mindless she started talking shit about how she was raped and stuff so I wasn't sure if she had planned/started to kill him from the beginning.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 19, 2011)

Pherenike said:


> It's funny but from the first time I glanced at this title, I've always thought it read "A Song of Fire and Ice" instead of "Ice and Fire".  Until a few days ago when I properly read it, I was stunned I had gotten it all wrong .____.



Yes, I myself believe that "Fire and Ice" would sound more dramatic than "Ice and Fire," but apparently Martin does not believe so.


----------



## The Imp (May 19, 2011)

How does that make it more dramatic?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 20, 2011)

The Imp said:


> How does that make it more dramatic?



Because when giving a list, the most significant item is usually last, to focus the most attention on it. By placing "ice" after "fire," the implication is that "ice" is greater than "fire;" another example is that fire is associated with life, warmth, and compassion, while ice is associated with death, darkness, and lack of compassion. I would rather have the implication be that ice follows fire, rather than fire following ice, because I also believe that ice is more closely associated with evil than is fire because it is also associated with death, and in my mind, placing "ice" after "fire" implies that a later antagonist faced by a hero will be "cold" and "icy" rather than "hot and "fiery."

I hope that that explanation makes sense, because that is the best way that I could phrase it; I admit that my thoughts on this subject was highly influenced by video games and Japanese animation, where "final villain"-type characters are very likely to have powers and personalities relating to "death," "darkness," and "cold," thus emphasizing the heroes' association with "life," "light," and "warmth," but that is simply my opinion on the subject, so I while I shall not argue with Martin's decision, I still prefer to place "ice" after "fire" in most other areas.


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## Nae'blis (May 20, 2011)

lol                   .


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## abcd (May 20, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> This is kind of what I was wondering. Initially when she treated him with the bandages and stuff did she use real healing things or did she attempt to make it worse.
> 
> I know he had taken off her original medicine because it burned or itched but then later after he came back mindless she started talking shit about how she was raped and stuff so I wasn't sure if she had planned/started to kill him from the beginning.



This was confusing for me too , Initially i was worried that drogo would screw up by not using her medicine properly but I guess that was just a diversion for the readers.


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## Felix (May 20, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Its a little shorter than _A Storm of Swords_, I think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope
Dance with Dragons is larger than Storm of Swords


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## Nayrael (May 20, 2011)

Confirmed by GRRM that it is shorter for just a few pages then ASOS. He trimmed some stuff and moved the other to Book 6.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 20, 2011)

Felix said:


> Dance with Dragons is larger than Storm of Swords





Nayrael said:


> Confirmed by GRRM that it is shorter for just a few pages then ASOS. He trimmed some stuff and moved the other to Book 6.



Good; after Martin having taken nearly six years to write the book, I expect it to be both great in page count and exceptional in quality, and I will be disappointed if it is not either of those.


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## masamune1 (May 20, 2011)

Felix said:


> Nope
> Dance with Dragons is larger than Storm of Swords





Nayrael said:


> Confirmed by GRRM that it is shorter for just a few pages then ASOS. He trimmed some stuff and moved the other to Book 6.





**


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (May 20, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



OMG Jamie and Arya are in!:WOW:WOW


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## DemonDragonJ (May 20, 2011)

Does anyone here believe that the prologue character in _A Dance With Dragons_ will die during it, as has happened with every other prologue character thus far? I believe so, although Martin may surprise his readers by _not_ killing the prologue character this time around.

Great signature, Fenix Down! I really like the reference there.


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## Nightfall (May 20, 2011)

Awesome, this book has it all then


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (May 20, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Great signature, Fenix Down! I really like the reference there.



Got it from


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## Nayrael (May 20, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Does anyone here believe that the prologue character in _A Dance With Dragons_ will die during it, as has happened with every other prologue character thus far? I believe so, although Martin may surprise his readers by _not_ killing the prologue character this time around.




*Spoiler*: _ADWD prologue spoiler_ 



I read the summary of the Prologue chapter... the character dies


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## Serp (May 20, 2011)

Hey I made the prototype to that signature, and posted it on 4chan and then that better one showed up the next day!


And guys, I want to remake/make Asoiaf roleplay on the site, even if you don't want to play it anyone want to help me make it? I need as much help as I can get to make it  awesome.


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 20, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: _ADWD prologue spoiler_
> 
> 
> 
> I read the summary of the Prologue chapter... the character dies



*Spoiler*: __ 



Is it still the Wildling warg? Or am I thinking of another chapter?


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## The Imp (May 20, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Is it still the Wildling warg? Or am I thinking of another chapter?




*Spoiler*: __ 



 the prologue is the wildling warg


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## Nae'blis (May 21, 2011)

"take heart, father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead"

 kills me every time I read that line.


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## The Imp (May 21, 2011)

Tyrion?

My favourite quote goes something like this...

"Rhaegar fought honourably. Rhaegar fought bravely. Rhaegar fought valiantly. And Rhaegar died."

or 

"In the end, Tywin Lannister did not shit gold."

What are everybody else's favourite quotes?


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## Banhammer (May 21, 2011)

Two quotes
"There are brave selswords, and there are old sellswords, but there are no brave old selswords"
And 
"And what sort of things did you do at King's Landing?
Needlework
Oh wonderful, I find it so restful, don't you
Not the way I do it."


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## Serp (May 21, 2011)

"Winter is coming" 

"Sapphires!"

I love the Rhaegar one.
"My brother was no dragon, fire cannot kill a dragon."

"The things I do for love."

"I have a soft spot in my heart for bastards, cripples and broken things."


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## The Imp (May 21, 2011)

The Tower of Joy flashback is complete gold. Ned's line was perfect. 

"Now it begins.
No. Now, it ends."

Or something like that.


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## Nae'blis (May 21, 2011)

there are far too many. Tyrion has a lot, Jaime (after his captivity) has a lot, "never give a wench a sword when she is bleeding" . The Wall has a lot "this will be uglier than a whores arse". Actually that whole passage from when Sam first arrives until "no one likes a craven" is gold. Jon however only has one "and his eunuchs were always eerily accurate caricatures of Ser Allisar" since, as Theon said, "the bastard was a sullen boy...". Bronn has a couple. Littlefinger has a lot "drink with the dwarf, it's said, and you wake up walking the Wall". Stannis has a few. Renly has a few. Theon when he arrives in Pike has a lot, but he becomes dull after the dinner with his father. That's when his issues start coming up and he pretty much doesn't think about what he is doing.

Those are the only ones I can think of offhand.

Ser Kevan has one I love to remember, "Spare me your japes, ser, I have no taste for them". And he has a few more in the same chapter.


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## Nae'blis (May 21, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Tyrion?


Yes it is          . I really love the interaction between characters, Martin, fat cunt that he is, doesn't mind taking the piss of himself. I am pretty much sure that whole Sam thing, "the new boy looked like an overcooked sausage about to burst its skin" was about himself.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (May 21, 2011)

Jaime: "A crossbow is a coward's weapon, boy. You'd be best off with a sword or spear."
Kid with a crossbow: "Why's this one in shackles?"
Jaime: "Killed me a crossbowman."

"We are the forgotten Fellowship!"
The Hound: "Send me on my way with my gold, and I'll forget about you too."


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## Cyphon (May 21, 2011)

Reading _Kings_ right now so this one is pretty fresh in my mind. Not _thee_ favorite quote but still great.

This was when Cersei had found out about the letters Stannis sent out claiming her children were born from i*c*st. 


Cersei: I will not suffer to be called a whore!

Tyrion (thinking to himself): Why, sister, he never claims Jaimie paid you.


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## Freija (May 22, 2011)

DEAR GOD IT FINALLY HAPPENED 
*Spoiler*: _slight spoiler so slight it's not plot relevant_ 



NO SANSA CHAPTERS IN A DANCE OF DRAGONS


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## Borel (May 22, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I always found her chapters to be quite uninteresting, so yay!


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## Cyphon (May 22, 2011)

My hype for this book just went up more knowing there is no Sansa.


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## Felix (May 22, 2011)

Come on guys, you don't understand

No Sansa -> No Littlefinger schemes and ownages

I think you guys can't quite grasp how bad that is, unless we get POVs from Littlefinger now, which destroys the need for Sansa POVs


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## The Imp (May 22, 2011)

Felix said:


> Come on guys, you don't understand
> 
> No Sansa -> No Littlefinger schemes and ownages
> 
> I think you guys can't quite grasp how bad that is, unless we get POVs from Littlefinger now, which destroys the need for Sansa POVs



Yeah, but we already know enough of his current schemes. He's basically playing the waiting game right now. Shit will go down in the 6th Book when Robin is dead.


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## Freija (May 22, 2011)

Felix said:


> Come on guys, you don't understand
> 
> No Sansa -> No Littlefinger schemes and ownages
> 
> I think you guys can't quite grasp how bad that is, unless we get POVs from Littlefinger now, which destroys the need for Sansa POVs



Littlefinger is like Tyrion jr, not as good and pedo


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## Cyphon (May 22, 2011)

Freija said:


> Littlefinger is like Tyrion jr, not as good and pedo



This.

I was honestly never a huge Littlefinger fan. He made Sansa chapters better but that is because she sucks anyway.

Less Sansa/Littlefinger means more POV's for the good chars. like Tyrion, Arya and Jon....Hopefully.


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## Banhammer (May 22, 2011)

Freija said:


> DEAR GOD IT FINALLY HAPPENED
> *Spoiler*: _slight spoiler so slight it's not plot relevant_
> 
> 
> ...



I assumed no chapters of people who had chapters in Feast For Crows were going to be had.
No brienne arya jaimie sansa samwell or cersei chapters. In exchange you get jon, catelyn tyrion and danny


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## Felix (May 22, 2011)

The only characters I hated (Brienne and Catelyn) are dead


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## The Imp (May 22, 2011)

Catelyn isn't in ADwD.


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## Memos (May 22, 2011)

Felix said:


> The only characters I hated (Brienne and Catelyn) are dead



Brienne is as dead as Davos :33


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## Serp (May 22, 2011)

I assumed the first part would be like what Banhammer said and then the next part would be further than feast for crows and thus have the other POVs back. Because I heard there were Ayra chapters.

And did it said no Sansa chapters or no Alyane chapters?


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## The Imp (May 22, 2011)

On one of his recent blog entries he went into detail about the last six years writing ADwD. He also told us who the POV's will be. There are 16 + prologue and epilogue.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Theon, Bran, Arya, Jaime, Cersei, Asha, Victarion, Davos, Areo Hotah, Quenteyn, Barristan Selmy, Melisandre, and an unknown POV.

Prologue is Varymyr Sixskins and the epilogue is unknown.


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## Serp (May 22, 2011)

Quentyn!  Barristan the Boss! Jaime! Fuck yea!


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## Dionysus (May 22, 2011)

Freija said:


> Littlefinger is like Tyrion jr, not as good and pedo


Littlefinger's been very successful in the books and his plans are still in motion--turning Sansa into a respectable character being a miracle that Tyrion likely couldn't perform. (Though Tyrion could have gotten into Sansa's pants first.) I'd say that Tyrion is more upright and honourable and he made a great Hand, but he's much a different player than Littlefinger.

If you're going to cast LF in book archetypes, I'd say Littlefinger is a Varys-Tyrion hybrid. Tyrion himself lacked the network of spies and didn't have long-term schemes, something Varys and Littlefinger possess. (Tyrion actually being used in the latter's plans rather than being a willing participant.) Tyrion and Littlefinger are financially inclined too (if I remember correctly), but Tyrion has an interest in war and such that Littlefinger never bothers with.


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## Nae'blis (May 22, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Catelyn isn't in ADwD.


Hallelujah, praise the lord. I hated her so muich. Un-Cat is slightly less annoying but still not worth a POV chapter.


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## masamune1 (May 22, 2011)

How do you know that Littlefinger isn't the one with the unknown POV?


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## abcd (May 22, 2011)

I think there are 4 POV of others too


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## The Imp (May 22, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> How do you know that Littlefinger isn't the one with the unknown POV?



If that was the case, why not just give the POV to Sansa? She's in the same location as LF.

I'm guessing the unknown POV will be someone in the East.


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## masamune1 (May 22, 2011)

So you don't think anyone is interested in what goes on in the head of Petyr Baelish?

You might as well ask why Ned, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya and Catelyn all had POV's when they were in the North. If Littlefinger gets one it gives people a different perspective.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 22, 2011)

Felix said:


> Come on guys, you don't understand
> 
> No Sansa -> No Littlefinger schemes and ownages
> 
> I think you guys can't quite grasp how bad that is, unless we get POVs from Littlefinger now, which destroys the need for Sansa POVs



Why do so many users here seem to dislike Sansa? I agree that she was foolishly naive and idealistic, but that does not make her uninteresting. I believe that there needs to be one person who can retain hope and ideals, so that they can reform the cruel and rotten world of this series.

Felix, saying that Sansa is relevant only for her connection to Littlefinger is completely false, as there were chapters told from her perspective long before he adopted her as his daughter; Sansa is relevant because she is one of the few charatcers in the series who maintains a high moral standard, which is something that the world of this series desperately needs, in my mind. Plus, she is a member of the Stark family, the _de-facto_ main characters of the series, with one member in each section of the world, thus providing the audience with information on what is occurring in that region.

As for Catelyn, I can understand that people dislike her for her capture of Tyrion, for which she had no evidence, and her release of Jaime, which was definitely very foolish, but she was doing those things to save her children, and I would never chastise a parent for seeking to help their children. However, why did she capture Tyrion? If it was because she suspected him of being the one who plotted to kill Bran, what evidence did she have? Tyrion had no particular dislike for Bran, and he is far too clever to equip an assassin with a dagger that could easily be traced back to him. In my mind, Catelyn was being completely irrational there.

As for Brienne, she has not yet been confirmed to be dead, so I shall expect that she shall survive her hanging, either because she was being asphyxiated, not having her neck broken, or someone shall rescue her. Could someone here please remind me why she was being hung? Did Catelyn, in her new vengeful mindset, believe that Brienne had failed to protect her (Catelyn's) children?



masamune1 said:


> So you don't think anyone is interested in what goes on in the head of Petyr Baelish?
> 
> You might as well ask why Ned, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya and Catelyn all had POV's when they were in the North. If Littlefinger gets one it gives people a different perspective.



If Martin writes a chapter told from Littlefinger's perspective, it may cause the audience to start to sympathize with him, which would not be good for the story, as he is currently being portrayed as a villain, at least in my mind. I used to not care about Jaime or Cersei, but after reading chapters from their perspective, I began to sympathize with them, which I do not wish to do with Littlefinger, because while Jaime and Cersei certainly are not evil, he most likely is, and it is difficult to perceive a character as being evil or villainous when you can sympathize with them. There is a reason that Martin did not write any chapters from the perspectives of Tywin, Joffrey, or Gregor, and that was to keep them as completely evil in the minds of the readers, a tactic that was very successful, in my mind. Another example would be that at no point were the stories of _Star Wars_ or _Bleach_ told from the perspectives of Emperor Palpatine or Sosuke Aizen, the main villains of each franchise, because they needed to remain emotionally distant from both the protagonists and the audience so that the audience could sympathize with the heroes and applaud their defeat of the villains.


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## Borel (May 22, 2011)

Personally I didn't start to sympathize with Cersei due to her POV chapters. My dislike of her was too deeply rooted for me to change my opinion. Could just be me, though.


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## The Imp (May 22, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> So you don't think anyone is interested in what goes on in the head of Petyr Baelish?
> 
> You might as well ask why Ned, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya and Catelyn all had POV's when they were in the North. If Littlefinger gets one it gives people a different perspective.



Too many things go on in the head of Petyr Baelish. He's better off as a mystery instead of knowing everything he is thinking, at least for now. 

Besides the focus of ADwD is primarily across the Narrow Sea. Why bother creating another POV to remind us what is going on in the Vale, when we already have a central character there?


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## Nae'blis (May 22, 2011)

I agree, I'd rather not have a Littlefinger POV until he has one of these moments in an epic way: I mean, he is a chestmaster. but I would lol if his master plan is just to marry Sansa.

Jaime said that Tyrion was Tywins true son, in the sense that they are pretty much exactly alike intellectually. I wonder why Tywin didn't see that.


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## masamune1 (May 22, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> If Martin writes a chapter told from Littlefinger's perspective, it may cause the audience to start to sympathize with him, which would not be good for the story, as he is currently being portrayed as a villain, at least in my mind. I used to not care about Jaime or Cersei, but after reading chapters from their perspective, I began to sympathize with them, which I do not wish to do with Littlefinger, because while Jaime and Cersei certainly are not evil, he most likely is, and it is difficult to perceive a character as being evil or villainous when you can sympathize with them. There is a reason that Martin did not write any chapters from the perspectives of Tywin, Joffrey, or Gregor, and that was to keep them as completely evil in the minds of the readers, a tactic that was very successful, in my mind. Another example would be that at no point were the stories of _Star Wars_ or _Bleach_ told from the perspectives of Emperor Palpatine or Sosuke Aizen, the main villains of each franchise, because they needed to remain emotionally distant from both the protagonists and the audience so that the audience could sympathize with the heroes and applaud their defeat of the villains.



Balderdash. 

If an unlikeable villainous character suddenly becomes sympathetic because you start to see things from their POV, its because there is something sympathetic about them that wasn't evident before. Jaime became sympathetic because what characters believed about him turned out to be different from the truth, such as Ned's suspicions that he had designs on the throne. Jaime wouldn't be near as sympathetic if he was as bad, or worse, as everyone thought he was. Add to that, they usually don't act as villanous as they did before- imagine if Bran was dropped out of a window _after_ we got Jaime's take on things; would he still be quite as sympathetic?

The reason we didn't get POV's for Gregor or Joffery is that those two are two-dimensional, psychotic, bloodthirsty lunatics, who would be more disturbing than interesting (in these two cases- there are plenty of horrible monsters who would still be awesome to read). Tywin probably _would_ have been interesting and its a bit of a loss that we didn't see his. There are plenty of characters who get POV's that _are not_ very sympathetic, like Theon Greyjoy, but that didn't stop Martin putting them in. Even "good guys" like Cateyln and Sansa can seem like bitches.

Aizen and Palpatine weren't given POV's (well, to an extent, they _were;_ they got more than Gregor, Joffery and Tywin, anyway) was not to make them sympathetic, but to keep us guessing about their game- we saw enough of both to recognise that both were bastards through and through, and that they were enojying the mess they were making and the pain they put people through. Shakespeare did _Othello_ mostly from the perspective of the villain, but few people think Iago was a nice or relatable guy.

Littlefinger belongs in the latter category. If you are going to avoid giving his side of the story, its because you want to keep the audience guessing. But thats possible to do without boycotting his view on things, especially since the main twist- that he is behind nearly everything- has already been thrown.
It wouldn't make him sympathetic unless there turned out to be some kind of ulterior motive that made it so. 

It would still be interesting to see, though. The fact that Sansa, and maybe others, are on to him now changes the nature of his character a bit. He's no longer the puppet master as much as he was, and is now starting to play a real game of wits. It would be interesting, for instance, to see if he knows that Sansa is trying to outplay him or not- and if he doesn't, whether or not he finds out or if he's able to beat her, or anyone else like Tyrion or Varys who might start to realise what he's been up to.



The Imp said:


> Too many things go on in the head of Petyr Baelish. He's better off as a mystery instead of knowing everything he is thinking, at least for now.
> 
> Besides the focus of ADwD is primarily across the Narrow Sea. Why bother creating another POV to remind us what is going on in the Vale, when we already have a central character there?



Petyr being a mystery isn't that big a deal. Thats more a question of how his POV is handled- a decent writer can give us a characters viewpoint without giving too many answers away, or even manage to raise more questions- and Martin is a bit more than a decent writer. Its just about how they are used, and where and when.

Doesn't matter if the story may be set mostly across the Narrow Sea. Might as well scrap the Daenary's chapters from the others books. Littlefinger wouldn't have to be used for whats going on in the Vale- though to answer your question, it would give us a fresh perspective on things-; he could be used to give us a foothold in Westeros at large, from the POV of the man who is _really_ in charge of it. It might even just be one or two chapters, with some kind of revelation perhaps like he knows more about what is going on across the sea, or up North, than he lets on. Or he doesn't, but he's setting up something that changes the way things go. 

Thats just a handful of possibilities. I'm not really expecting Littlefinger to be in the book; but really, there are dozens of very good reasons he might end up being. Even just as a surprise to the reader.


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## Banhammer (May 22, 2011)

we can't littlefinger's POV because in a POV you get an inside on his mind, and if you get an inside on his thoughts and plans then the story will be spoiled for the future.


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## masamune1 (May 22, 2011)

Only if his plans are simplistic and boring. And if he reveals them.

*EDIT-* Actually, screw that. It wouldn't have to spoil anything. What kind of shoddy writer would let that happen?


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## Nae'blis (May 22, 2011)

you're not making sense.

also wait lol since when was Littlefinger an unlikeable/villain character? because he betrayed that naive pup Ned Stark?


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## masamune1 (May 22, 2011)

I'm making too much sense.


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## Banhammer (May 22, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Only if his plans are simplistic and boring. And if he reveals them.
> 
> *EDIT-* Actually, screw that. It wouldn't have to spoil anything. What kind of shoddy writer would let that happen?



sigh

A proper writer breathes drive and conflict into their characters. How the hell is George supose to explain anything that happens in the plot, using a First Person POV without explaining why that puts on a conflict or a favorable drive?
In GGRMartin's writing style he is constantly exploring the title character's thoughts. You'd be suggesting Petyr is always doing something without thinking as to why he's doing it, or that he only ever hints at it in the privacy of his own mind.
You'd be full of "why is he being so difficult"? moments.
All you'd get is either a flashback chapter or a relationship chapter he he gawks at something someone did for ten pages
Besides, you're supposed to fill in the blanks about petyr's character.


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## masamune1 (May 22, 2011)

If Martin can do several dozen chapters with Tyrion while still hiding from the reader exactly what he is up to half the time, he can do it with Petyr. Seeing into a characters thoughts is not seeing into his plans- Petyr just has to think about something else (like, say, whatever else is going on), or only think of the parts of it relevant to the chapter. Its not difficult at all.


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## The Imp (May 22, 2011)

To be fair, Tyrion is always reacting to the things going around him. He's quick on his feet and makes short term plans. Varys and Littlefinger are complete opposites as schemers.

With Melisandre and Barristan, we'll probably see how well he can write from a POV without giving too much important information away.


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## Nayrael (May 22, 2011)

I agree with masamune1. Just because someone is a POV, it doesn't mean that we will suddenly know everything he is up to. Unless Littlefinger sits and analyses every part of every one of his complex plans, we wouldn't know much more then few hints. Writing a POV chapter without revealing anything important is so easy you can claim it should be punishable by law.


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## crazymtf (May 22, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why do so many users here seem to dislike Sansa? I agree that she was foolishly naive and idealistic, but that does not make her uninteresting. I believe that there needs to be one person who can retain hope and ideals, so that they can reform the cruel and rotten world of this series.
> 
> Felix, saying that Sansa is relevant only for her connection to Littlefinger is completely false, as there were chapters told from her perspective long before he adopted her as his daughter; Sansa is relevant because she is one of the few charatcers in the series who maintains a high moral standard, which is something that the world of this series desperately needs, in my mind. Plus, she is a member of the Stark family, the _de-facto_ main characters of the series, with one member in each section of the world, thus providing the audience with information on what is occurring in that region.
> 
> ...


Not always. Just cause Cersei got a POV and Theon didn't mean I cared for them. Sympathize for them? No I just hated them more. Getting inside their heads, learning how fucking weak and pathetic they truly are. No I never felt pity, if anything I disliked them even more. The only difference giving them a POV did was making them more interesting. It could work for littlefinger too. Though if I could choose, rather him stay a mystery to us.


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## Nae'blis (May 22, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> If Martin can do several dozen chapters with Tyrion while still hiding from the reader exactly what he is up to half the time, he can do it with Petyr. Seeing into a characters thoughts is not seeing into his plans- Petyr just has to think about something else (like, say, whatever else is going on), or only think of the parts of it relevant to the chapter. Its not difficult at all.


what has Tyrion done that readers weren't  aware of?

And please don't mention the chain.


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## masamune1 (May 23, 2011)

The chain. 

There are other minor examples. Like, we didn't know his plans to punish the killers of Roberts' bastards until he basically fired/ transferred one of them. I don't think we even knew that was _happening_ until that point. 

Either way, the point is getting a characters' POV is not the same as getting their master plan, their gambits, their plots, their schemes, or whatever else. Littlefinger wouldn't be any different. Even if he isn't a POV character in _ADwD,_ he might still be one in some future story.


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## Felix (May 23, 2011)

I have known through Robb that if we don't get a POV before he gets in danger or if things sail to smoothly for him, he will die


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## Nightfall (May 23, 2011)

I want a POV from Varys near the end of the series, if he hasn't died by then.

I'm looking for some new fantasy, does anyone here know of anything in particular? Preferably something in the ASOIAF league or at least close to it. Not really sure where to start looking.


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## Nayrael (May 23, 2011)

*Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn* by Tadd Williams - ASOIAF drew inspiration from it
*Prince of Nothing* by R. Scott Bakker - great dark fantasy series which I am currently reading


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## LifeMaker (May 23, 2011)

Memory Sorrow and Thorn starts slow as hell, but if you plow through the first 150 or so pages where nothing happens its ultra awesome


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## The Imp (May 23, 2011)

Greyjoys - Iron Islands

The Riverlands were not one of the original 7 kingdoms. Aegon split the Greyjoy territory in 2.

The Lannisters won because Tywin and Tyrion are pimps.


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## Banhammer (May 23, 2011)

well, I thought so, but since they oft spoke of riverlords (and that little line of "the freys are to the tullis what the boltons are to the stark and the reynes to the lannister),I just lined Tully over Greyjoy


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## LeafCake (May 23, 2011)

I hope no one minds me throwing myself into this thread. My boyfriend is a huge fan of this book series, and I started watching the TV series to pay an interest and found I liked it very much. 

But I felt a bit left out with him having read the books and I not. So today, I started reading AGOT and while I am enjoying it thoroughly, it is a mammoth book for me. See, I can read many smaller books in one go, one after the other, but I seem to find one large book rather daunting and for a few hours it seemed even though I was reading a lot, the amount left wasn't getting any smaller! 

But I am half way in now, and hope to finish it by tomorrow. I may stay up tonight and finish it if I have the energy. I am liking Martin's writing style greatly.


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## Cyphon (May 23, 2011)

The book is so good you shouldn't want it to seem like you are getting close to the end


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## LeafCake (May 23, 2011)

I want to end it merely so I can speak with my boyfriend about it and so I can follow the TV series along with it and compare.


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## Cyphon (May 23, 2011)

LeafCake said:


> I want to end it merely so I can speak with my boyfriend about it and so I can follow the TV series along with it and compare.



Fair enough.

My gf is currently doing the same thing.


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## LeafCake (May 23, 2011)

His style of writing is different to any other book I have read and I am welcome to the uniqueness of his work, it is wonderful. I want to finish this one, so I can read the next one!


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## The Imp (May 23, 2011)

Avoid spoilers at all costs.


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## Sesha (May 23, 2011)

Spoilers will ruin everything. Shocking, I know. 

Best avoid this thread, verbal septic tank that it is, until you've caught up .



LeafCake said:


> His style of writing is different to any other book I have read and I am welcome to the uniqueness of his work, it is wonderful. I want to finish this one, so I can read the next one!



ASoIaF is so unique in its uniqueness that it'll uniquely redefine your awareness of the uniquely unique.


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## Cyphon (May 23, 2011)

Forgot how much I like Jaqen H'ghar.


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## Banhammer (May 24, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Avoid spoilers at all costs.



Yeah when they tolled Tyrion was gonna die shot off a pirate canon against the Wall I totally raged


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## Dionysus (May 24, 2011)

Episode 8 should be showing Syrio's final lesson to Arya.


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## Felix (May 24, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I noticed that Brienne is described as being not very attractive in terms of physical appearance, and that Arya is likewise said to not be as attractive as her sister, Sansa. They are two of the few women in this series who are competent fighters and do not conform to patriarchal standards and expectations, yet they are not as attractive as the women who do conform.
> 
> I greatly dislike that, as it implies that only unattractive women are suitable to be fighters; why can a woman not have it both ways, being both attractive and capable of fighting? What does everyone else say about that?



I think for Arya is just a question of being extremely unlady like and not caring for her appearance


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## Borel (May 24, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I noticed that Brienne is described as being not very attractive in terms of physical appearance, and that Arya is likewise said to not be as attractive as her sister, Sansa. They are two of the few women in this series who are competent fighters and do not conform to patriarchal standards and expectations, yet they are not as attractive as the women who do conform.
> 
> I greatly dislike that, as it implies that only unattractive women are suitable to be fighters; why can a woman not have it both ways, being both attractive and capable of fighting? What does everyone else say about that?


I hadn't thought about that.

But you have to consider the universe ithe story is set in, what women mainly do is marry. Attractive women are more desirable, so marrying is easier for them. Why bother doing anything else?

Equality is all fine and dandy, but it wouldn't be very realistic in ASoIaF's universe.


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## Banhammer (May 24, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I noticed that Brienne is described as being not very attractive in terms of physical appearance, and that Arya is likewise said to not be as attractive as her sister, Sansa. They are two of the few women in this series who are competent fighters and do not conform to patriarchal standards and expectations, yet they are not as attractive as the women who do conform.
> 
> I greatly dislike that, as it implies that only unattractive women are suitable to be fighters; why can a woman not have it both ways, being both attractive and capable of fighting? What does everyone else say about that?



Arya is like eight or something. Why would you care about the way she looks? It's just said she's a child and that she looks like her father
Besides, the sand snakes are all gorgeous and beautiful and deadly as hell.
There are other woman warriors where no judgment is made about their beauty, like that norse lady of,  I think it was, bear island, or Nymeria.
And you won't find a bigger dick hater than Cersei Lannister
Asha Greyjoy is also gorgeous, seductive and a very strong fighter.


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## Banhammer (May 24, 2011)

question is, why would you wanna forsake such an important plot to their characters, such as their hard looks, or childish simplicity for the sake of such a vain concept as beauty?
Brienne is a great warrior because she's huge, and that gives her pride, while Arya's contrast to sansa serves her immensely well as she tries to sneak up north


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## DemonDragonJ (May 24, 2011)

I am not complaining about their appearances, nor am I saying that all the female characters in this story need to be gorgeous in appearance, but I was hoping that at least some of the female characters could have the "best of both worlds," to use a common informal phrase.


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## Nayrael (May 24, 2011)

Brienne is ugly because GRRM wanted a female knight. A knight must be muscular.
Dorne-style guerilla warriors (there are many hot Dorne female warriors), wildlings and some others (like Arya) depend on speed tough so any female can be quite a good warrior... bot not a Knight. For a woman to be a knight, she must be similar to Brienne to be a Knight in more then a title.

As for Arya... she is not ugly as far as I know... she is just not ladylike and doesn't try to impress others with her looks... her being clean like Aragon from LOTR doesn't help much either.
Not to mention that she is just a kid. As far as we know, she might turn into a hottie later -_-;


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## DemonDragonJ (May 24, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> As for Arya... she is not ugly as far as I know... she is just not ladylike and doesn't try to impress others with her looks... her being clean like Aragon from LOTR doesn't help much either.
> Not to mention that she is just a kid. As far as we know, she might turn into a hottie later -_-;



Yes, Arya is often compared to Ned's sister, Lyanna, and Lyanna was said to be very attractive, so I definitely am hoping that Arya will become more attractive as she ages.


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## The Imp (May 24, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, Arya is often compared to Ned's sister, Lyanna, and Lyanna was said to be very attractive, so I definitely am hoping that Arya will become more attractive as she ages.



Oh man just imagine Arya at the age of 12... 

so HAWT


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## Grrblt (May 24, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Brienne is ugly because GRRM wanted a female knight. A knight must be muscular.


The actor for Loras disagrees.


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## Nayrael (May 24, 2011)

Grrblt said:


> The actor for Loras disagrees.



Just you wait till Brienne kicks his BLEEP in ACOK XD


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## Nae'blis (May 24, 2011)

Brienne is freakishly strong.


The Imp said:


> Oh man just imagine Arya at the age of 12...
> 
> so HAWT


lol                      .


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 24, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, Arya is often compared to Ned's sister, Lyanna, and Lyanna was said to be very attractive, so I definitely am hoping that Arya will become more attractive as she ages.


If Arya truly becomes a Faceless Man, what need would she have to keep her appearance or rely on her genetics?

As for Brienne, a knight's training isn't really made for beauty. Note the mention of her nose having been broken several times; I'm sure that doesn't help.


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## Nae'blis (May 24, 2011)

Brienne's tourney victory over the Knight of Flowers pretty much shows that she needs to be the strongest and best in order to be taken seriously as a woman knight. A woman can not be a knight: and she wanted to prove otherwise. Brienne being ugly is just a coincidence.

I don't want to say that a man with the same build as a woman would be stronger, but it's obvious.

And lets not forget the Jaime's cock moved a little after seeing her naked.

And Arya isn't a knight who uses lance and shield. Jaime said that his dexterity and quickness were enough to overcome stronger knights (I don;t remember the names of the knights he said were stronger than him). Everyone Arya has killed was bigger and stronger than she was, so speed is more important in sword combat.


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## Pineapples (May 25, 2011)

On the topic of females and Westeros, can anyone enlighten me as to why there's no female members of the Night's Watch? I might be forgetting something but I don't remember reading about females in the Night's Watch.


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## Nayrael (May 25, 2011)

The only country that accepts females into military is Dorne. And I don't think Dorne cares much about the Wall to send their women there.

People like Brienne of Tarth and Joan of Arc (in our history) are very, very rare exceptions. And since they are rare exceptions, you eon't usually see females on the Wall.

GRRM is VERY conservative about Middle Age culture mind you.


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## Serp (May 25, 2011)

I think the main reason, there is no women in the nights watch is the overwhelming fact that a great amount of the NW are rapists and men who have been denied a woman, they would spend too much time fucking them even if their vows forbade it. Same reason the kingsguard has no women and have vows, so they stay on task.


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## The Imp (May 25, 2011)

Maybe there will be women in the NW in the future. If Stannis gets what he wants, there will be wildlings on the south side of the wall. The wildlings know that there is a supernatural threat on the rise and their women are free/not restricted by the social norms in the south. It's possible some might defend the Wall with the NW. They wouldn't a part of the brotherhood in name but they would perform the same duty, which is what really matters.


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## Cyphon (May 25, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> I think the main reason, there is no women in the nights watch is the overwhelming fact that a great amount of the NW are rapists and men who have been denied a woman, they would spend too much time fucking them even if their vows forbade it. Same reason the kingsguard has no women and have vows, so they stay on task.



I think you hit the nail on the head. Women go against one of the main rules of the wall.


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## Serp (May 25, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Maybe there will be women in the NW in the future. If Stannis gets what he wants, there will be wildlings on the south side of the wall. The wildlings know that there is a supernatural threat on the rise and their women are free/not restricted by the social norms in the south. It's possible some might defend the Wall with the NW. They wouldn't a part of the brotherhood in name but they would perform the same duty, which is what really matters.



And wildling women like abit of kidnap and rape so its all good.


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## Banhammer (May 26, 2011)

It seems that the little bit about Asha Greyjoy and the sand snakes is being ignored. Fine then


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## Serp (May 26, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> It seems that the little bit about Asha Greyjoy and the sand snakes is being ignored. Fine then


What bit?


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## Banhammer (May 26, 2011)

The bit where they're gorgeous seductive women who will just as easy jam an axe, or a polearm between your legs in a fight


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## Cyphon (May 26, 2011)

Almost finished with my re-read of _Kings_ and I have to say _Thrones_ is the better book but _Kings_ had some really good things going for it. 

- I really liked how it went a lot deeper into the more fantastical elements of the story. We had the blue lips that Daenerys dealt with (forgot their names), Bran/Jon/Jojen and the beast information we got, J'haqen Hgar changing his appearance and more of the red priestess and her shadowspawn. 

- One of my favorite moments was Jaimie and Catelyn having their Q & A in the cell. It made me want more back and forth from them and more interesting questions.

- Renly and Stannis coming into the picture in a more prominent role and when they met up. 2 parts I enjoyed especially were Renly offering the peach to Stannis and then later Stannis actually showing us some emotion beyond his shell about how he felt after his brothers death.

- Lastly I liked getting a much bigger picture of the Wildlings and Nights Watch. Halfhand coming into the picture and then learning just how vast the army was and all that. 


I may be forgetting some things but this book really did have great moments. I just felt like it wasn't quite as exciting on a consistent basis and while it was still a page turner it didn't make we want to turn the pages quite as fast as _Thrones_.


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## Nae'blis (May 26, 2011)

Catelyn didn't have anything to do with it as she is dull as shit. Jaime was just channeling some of Tyrion's spirit in that cell. Or rather his personality is so much like Tyrion's (but he doesn't obsess over some whore so it's better) that it makes no difference. Pretty much everything he said was gold. It's one of my favourite parts in the series. "then surely you came to service me" 

I really hate how every other thought Tyrion has is about Shae or however the whores name is spelt.


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## crazymtf (May 27, 2011)

I felt GOT was better then Kings. Kings was good, some great moments. Renly's death alone was one of my favorite moments in the series. However, Thrones was the better read overall IMO. 

Now swords to me is almost the perfect package. Really got deep into a lot of the characters. The twist and major plot changing events are the best in the series. I also really loved the ending. I do think it had a bit to many chapters and could get boring at some points. However, overall for the middle part of the series, or close to it, it sure changed shit up. 

Feast was my second favorite book TBH. I was just really interested in the Boltons *Correct spelling?* and I loved Jamie's chapters, easily some of the most interesting chapters in the series. I like Arya's chapters alot, and finally felt like Sansa had a major point in the series haha. Overall really loved this book and the fastest one I read too. 

Swords - 9
Feast = Thrones - 8
Clash - 7.5


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## Banhammer (May 27, 2011)

I liked Clash a lot, the war was great, and made me like Rob, but felt like it was incomplete. I mean, I know the story is meant to be spread out through seven books, but a smaller arc once in a while would be fine too



> Renly's death alone was one of my favorite moments in the series


Really? Heh, I guess.


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## crazymtf (May 27, 2011)

Hell yes. His death was unexpected once again. I love main characters dying


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## Serp (May 27, 2011)

Gay Renly getting killed by an evil vagina monster  GRRM Gold!


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## The Imp (May 27, 2011)

A Game of Thrones had the best ending. King in the North is still one of my favourite scenes.


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## masamune1 (May 27, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Hell yes. His death was unexpected once again. I love main characters dying



Renly was anything but a main character.


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## αshɘs (May 28, 2011)

When I bought GoT this Tuesday, I didn't thought I'd finish it till the weekend. But I couldn't put it down. It really feels like the beginning of an epic tale and wants me come back for more.

Almost got fooled with Daenerys at the end. Good ending.


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## Mori` (May 28, 2011)

The Imp said:


> A Game of Thrones had the best ending. King in the North is still one of my favourite scenes.



Funny thing, I've read through the complete series more times than I can remember, but I always end up tricking myself into thinking the book ends with Arya being ambiguously dragged off by Yoren after the execution. Then every time I re-read GoT I go "ohhhhhh there's more" when I reach that point lol.



αshɘs said:


> When I bought GoT this Tuesday, I didn't thought I'd finish it till the weekend. But I couldn't put it down. It really feels like the beginning of an epic tale and wants me come back for more.
> 
> Almost got fooled with Daenerys at the end. Good ending.



GoT is the beginning of an epic tale =p

Well, depending on who you talk to it's the middle of an epic tale, and to some it will be the beginning of the end of an epic tale. But that's for you to judge once you've explored the other books and enjoyed the depth of GRRM's world ^^

=====

My pre-aDwD reread is going well, almost finished the first sub volume of SoS, kind of wish I had a giant 1book Tome though xD


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## The Imp (May 28, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> Funny thing, I've read through the complete series more times than I can remember, but I always end up tricking myself into thinking the book ends with Arya being ambiguously dragged off by Yoren after the execution. Then every time I re-read GoT I go "ohhhhhh there's more" when I reach that point lol.



The first time I read it, I thought it would end there because of the execution, then I check what page I'm on and there are still at least another 50 pages left. 

GRRM tends to leave the last chapter a bit hopeful though. Daenerys with her dragons, Bran starting his journey North, Jon becoming Commander of the NW and a maester from Oldtown going East to aid Dany. Martin's world is grim but there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.


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## The Imp (May 29, 2011)

Are you serious? Dany's entire plot is about her coming back to Westeros and taking the iron throne. She's only in Mereen temporarily because she fucked shit up and wants to learn how to rule.


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## Felix (May 29, 2011)

Dany only captured those three cities as practice.
Her aim is Westeros


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## Serp (May 29, 2011)

And the reason I said Renly was killed by an evil vagina monster, was because it came out of her Vagina, I knew it was a shadow.

And Doran explains to his daughter that he was going to marry her to Viserys until he fucked up. So IIRC ge is sending Quentyn to treat with Dany.


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## The Imp (May 29, 2011)

@ your sig: When you really think about it, the Targs are just Valyrian fodder.


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## Serp (May 29, 2011)

Yes, I know :3 
I have high hopes for the series if they explore Valyria and Assahi.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 30, 2011)

Why does Daenerys wish to conquer Westeros? I thought that she did not share he brother's grand and possibly irrational beliefs? If I were in her position, I would, simply be content with the cities that I had; I would have no interest in conquering a continent about which I knew very little and to which I had never been.



Serperion Targaryen said:


> And Doran explains to his daughter that he was going to marry her to Viserys until he fucked up. So IIRC ge is sending Quentyn to treat with Dany.



Yes, I can understand that, but by ruining Arianne's plan, Doran essentially ensured that Myrcella is not likely to have significant role in the series at any point in the near future: essentially, Myrcella is important only because she is the daughter of Cersei and Jaime and the sister of Joffrey and Tommen; for that reason, I really wish to see her assume a more major role later in the series. Martin has shown that he can develop his characters exceptionally well, so I hope that he does so for Myrcella, as she is a Lannister who may help to improve the reputation of House Lannister across Westeros, which is something that I would like to see very much.


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 30, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why does Daenerys wish to conquer Westeros? I thought that she did not share he brother's grand and possibly irrational beliefs? If I were in her position, I would, simply be content with the cities that I had; I would have no interest in conquering a continent about which I knew very little and to which I had never been.


She still sees herself as rightful heir and ruler of Westeros. They still killed her family and forced her brother and her from their kingdom.


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## Nayrael (May 30, 2011)

> Why does Daenerys wish to conquer Westeros? I thought that she did not share he brother's grand and possibly irrational beliefs?



That was before the end of AGOT. After AGOT, she shares her brother's beliefs and seeks to return Westeros to Targaryens.

A lot of people simply tend to give a lot of value to stuff they were supposed to inherit, no matter how irrational it may be.


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## abcd (May 30, 2011)

I am re-reading GOT and have a few things that struck as weird to me

1) Illyrio using a lot of perfume but still stinks 
2) Illyrio walks with a lot of grace (soft-footed)
3) Vary is also mentioned as softfooted 
4) both of them meet before Danys marriage( Aryas POV) (probably for the dragon eggs)

What do u guys make of it


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## DemonDragonJ (May 30, 2011)

abcd said:


> I am re-reading GOT and have a few things that struck as weird to me
> 
> 1) Illyrio using a lot of perfume but still stinks
> 2) Illyrio walks with a lot of grace (soft-footed)
> ...



I believe that it is likely a coincidence, as Varys was previously a very important figure in the royal court, so I doubt that his absence would be unnoticed, if Illyrio and he were the same person.


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## abcd (May 30, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I believe that it is likely a coincidence, as Varys was previously a very important figure in the royal court, so I doubt that his absence would be unnoticed, if Illyrio and he were the same person.



The possibility of them being the same person is ruled out because Arya saw them together ...

but both look like they have been similarly trained ... maybe in something like waterdance

-- It looks like they are more than just 2 people who just want to conspire for some good of the realm :/


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## Serp (May 30, 2011)

And Doran saw his plan as better than his daughters, if he put Myrcella  on the throne and then brought back Dany, that would cause  complications. So he had to stop it, Doran has the big game in mind. 

And Myrcella has a role, she is the only heir to house Lannister and the  Rock that can get away without being murdered. Jaime and Tyrion are no  longer heirs, and Tommen has to die. The Prophecy states their crowns  and shrouds will be gold some think this refers to them being kings and  queens and dying as such.  I see it as their hair will be golden, and  they will die in the end as Lannisters (aka them being recognised as not  roberts children). Tommen is on the throne so unless he steals away he  must die, after Tommen and Cersei are dead Myrcella is heir to the Rock  and if she marries the dornish prince all will be set in motion for  Dornes alliance with Dany. Myrcella can be used in much more ways than being crowned queen Tommen is king and he has almost fuck all to do anymore (not that he had to begin with).


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## The Imp (May 30, 2011)

I imagine Tyrion will be pardoned and become the Lord of Casterly Rock at the end of the series. 

Also the Martells hate the Lannisters and are Targ loyalists, so obviously they are going to choose to put Dany on the throne instead of Myrcella.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 30, 2011)

Serperion, why must Tommen die? He has done absolutely nothing to warrant him being killed, at least from the perspective of the audience, and he is only eight years old, with so many potential years of life ahead of him. If Bran, who is the same age as Tommen, has survived thus far, why not Tommen, as well?


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## The Imp (May 30, 2011)

Tommen is sitting on the Iron Throne. If other contenders want it, he has to be killed, or possibly exiled. 

Rhaegar's kids were less than half his age and they were murdered brutally. It's not like his death would have no precedence.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 30, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Tommen is sitting on the Iron Throne. If other contenders want it, he has to be killed, or possibly exiled.
> 
> Rhaegar's kids were less than half his age and they were murdered brutally. It's not like his death would have no precedence.



Yes, I know that, but I do not like to see people of such a young age die; so much life is lost, so much potential is gone; the audience will never know what those charatcers may have become had they lived for many years more. it is very tragic and sad, at least to me.


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## The Imp (May 30, 2011)

There's so much death in ASoIaF that you become desensitized to it unless it is somebody you like. I'm not going to care if Tommen is killed just because he is a kid. I might care if he's fleshed out more or he's killed in an extremely cruel manner, but as of now I don't give a shit.


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## Serp (May 30, 2011)

@DDJ The Imp has it correct about Tommens death. 
It will be hard for Tyrion to get a Pardon, but he can become lord of the Rock is allied with Dany and takes it by force/birth right.


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## The Imp (May 30, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> @DDJ The Imp has it correct about Tommens death.
> It will be hard for Tyrion to get a Pardon, but he can become lord of the Rock is allied with Dany and takes it by force/birth right.



Yeah that was the scenario I was thinking about. He gets shit on by everybody, some good things need to come his way.


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## crazymtf (May 30, 2011)

Has this series ever gave a shit if everybody shits on a character? Just cause Tyrion gets shitted on doesn't mean he'll live. I have a feeling he'll die too.



masamune1 said:


> Renly was anything but a main character.



Still main enough that he could of gotten his own POV eventually since he was gonna be a contender for king. But then he got owned


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## Serp (May 30, 2011)

Oh that is always an open possibility, I can very clearly see a Queen Sansa outcome and a host of other characters dying. Arya I can see dying, Dany too.


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## Felix (May 30, 2011)

I can't see Arya dying without doing something big first
Like some sweet revenge

She can't live forever when peace comes because she will never fit the Lady mold society requires of her


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## masamune1 (May 30, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Still main enough that he could of gotten his own POV eventually since he was gonna be a contender for king. But then he got owned



.......How many contenders for King have gotten POV's again?

Sratch that. How many _Kings_ have gotten POV's again?


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## crazymtf (May 30, 2011)

You speak truth! I meant could of actually gotten to know the character more by having a POV close to him. He seemed like a interesting guy. Either way liked when he died is all


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## Felix (May 31, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> .......How many contenders for King have gotten POV's again?
> 
> Sratch that. How many _Kings_ have gotten POV's again?



Danny


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## Splintered (May 31, 2011)

Well, you could add Cersei (contenders) on the list, even if atm she's crashing and burning in glorious fashion.


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## Serp (May 31, 2011)

I think that would be queen contenders. And Cersei is acting as queen regent.


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## Splintered (May 31, 2011)

True, but I still think Cersei wants power, or to be in complete control and that means something.  I don't think she has much faith in Tommen's skills so even as regent, she would still rule.  Imo she's fixated on the whole idea that women are not going to rule.  But given the chance, I think she would go for it.

Although she is operating a lot through proxy.  But I'd still put her down as a serious contender for the Game of Thrones.


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## Memos (May 31, 2011)

Splinterfell said:


> True, but I still think Cersei wants power, or to be in complete control and that means something.  I don't think she has much faith in Tommen's skills so even as regent, she would still rule.  Imo she's fixated on the whole idea that women are not going to rule.  But given the chance, I think she would go for it.
> 
> Although she is operating a lot through proxy.  But I'd still put her down as a serious contender for the Game of Thrones.



She's just a pawn who thinks she's a player.


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## Splintered (May 31, 2011)

Memos said:


> She's just a pawn who thinks she's a player.



Everyone is Littlefinger's pawn


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## Memos (May 31, 2011)

Splinterfell said:


> Everyone is Littlefinger's pawn



You could say he has everyone wrapped around his... little finger.

Now, if only he could have had Cat wrapped around his "little finger" none of this would have happened.


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## Cyphon (May 31, 2011)

I can't see Arya dying. I think Littlefinger will die. Especially if he gets a POV.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 31, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I can't see Arya dying. I think Littlefinger will die. Especially if he gets a POV.



I am hoping that Arya does not die, but Martin surprised me greatly with the "Red Wedding" in _A Storm of Swords;_ in my opinion, that was his way of telling the audience to not become too comfortable with his pattern of killi9ng characters. For me, I was initially surprised by how easily Martin killed his characters in the story, but after two-and-a-half books of seeing characters die, I had become familiar with such a sadistic (in my mind) tendency and believed that I could predict which characters would die and which would live. However, the Red Wedding proved that I was wrong, so although I do not wish to admit it, it is entirely possibly, even if it is unlikely, that Arya may die later in the series, but if she does, I am certain that she will have a properly dramatic death and at least do something meaningful before she does.

ABCD, I like the idea of Varys and Illyrio having some connection to each other, as I would like their similarity to be more than simply a coincidence. I also do not believe that Illyrio is dead, as his death was never confirmed, so I am hoping that he shall return and have some important role in the future (imagine if Illyrio is actually one of the Faceless Men of Braavos? How awesome would that be?).

Also, if Benjen Stark is dead, why will Martin not explicitly say so? Benjen was seen in only several chapters of the first book, and then vanished without any trace, so why is it necessary to keep the audience in such suspense over his ultimate fate? In my mind, the only reason for which Martin would not explicitly state Benjen's fate is that he (Martin) plans to bring back Benjen for some purpose in a later book. What does everyone else say about that?


----------



## The Imp (May 31, 2011)

When was it stated that Illyrio was dead?


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (May 31, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I also do not believe that Illyrio is dead, as hi death was never confirmed, so I am hoping that he shall return and have some important role in the future (imagine if Illyrio is actually one of the Faceless Men of Braavos?



When was he suggested to be dead?


----------



## Cyphon (May 31, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I am hoping that Arya does not die,



Same here. 

The reason I don't see her dying is because she is our connection to some more of the "magic" in the series and I am hoping Martin gets more in depth with it through her.



> and believed that I could predict which characters would die and which would live.



I never got so comfortable but a simple random gut feeling made me think something bad is coming for Sansa or Littlefinger. Obviously leaning towards L. 



> so although I do not wish to admit it, it is entirely possibly, even if it is unlikely, that Arya may die later in the series, but if she does, I am certain that she will have a properly dramatic death and at least do something meaningful before she does.



Agreed on all counts. I am hoping at the very least she gets to kill one of her main prayer targets. Cersei maybe?



> In my mind, the only reason for which Martin would not explicitly state Benjen's fate is that he (Martin) plans to bring back Benjen for some purpose in a later book. What does everyone else say about that?



There are definitely some options here (unless I am forgetting some key details).

1. He actually left the wall and disappeared somewhere and will return to a Jon confrontation. I could see this as potential for Jon's final or maybe just big growth moment. He has to fully release his family ties and join the wall by killing his uncle.

2. He joined Mance or has some connection to the Wildlings and is still out there.

3. The most simple and probably most likely is that he will come back with black hands and blue eyes.


In any of the 3 cases I see it being a growth moment for Jon as explained above.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (May 31, 2011)

DemonDragonJ which makes me very displeased that Doran had to be a jerk and ruin [U said:
			
		

> his own daughter's[/U] plans; that is not at all an example of good parenting, in my mind.



LOL, stopping your immature children from making catastrophic mistakes is like one of the most important parts of parenting. You forget how weak Dorne is; the desert and the people makes them pretty hard to invade but they just flat out don't have the numbers to enforce anything. 



The Imp said:


> @ your sig: When you really think about it, the Targs are just Valyrian fodder.



They were Lords of Dragonstone IIRC so they were old Vallyrian nobility at least. And Aegeon the Conquer sounds like he was a true dragon.


----------



## The Imp (May 31, 2011)

I hope Martin doesn't kill characters for the sake of killing characters



The Bloody Nine said:


> They were Lords of Dragonstone IIRC so they were old Vallyrian nobility at least. And Aegeon the Conquer sounds like he was a true dragon.



He also ruled in the farthest corner of Valryia. They were probably lower nobility, and they managed to take over nearly an entire continent. Just imagine the power behind one of the greater houses. I'm not sure how numerous the dragons were, but there must have been a shit ton if Aegon had 3.


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## Coteaz (May 31, 2011)

Doran's comments at the end of Feast make me wonder how many troops Dorne could muster for war. I remember Cersei/someone in King's Landing saying something about having to deal with "fifty thousand Dornishmen" if they didn't appease them earlier in the series, but now I wonder if that was all part of the exaggeration of Dorne's power. 

If I had to guess, I'd give Dorne ~20,000 swords, which is similar to what Robb called from the also thinly-populated North.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 31, 2011)

The Imp said:


> When was it stated that Illyrio was dead?





Rob said:


> When was he suggested to be dead?



At no point did I ever say that Illyrio was suggested to be dead, but to the best of my recollection, the last that was ever seen of him was he was attacked by royal guards, for whatever reason, and he fought them off while telling Arya to escape. I do not recall him ever appearing again after that, which is why I said that I hope he is not dead.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (May 31, 2011)

I think you mixed up Illyrio and Syrio - Syrio being the one who trained Arya and stayed back to fight off the soldiers and Kingsguard dude. 
Illyrio I believe, is still wherever he was, in Pentos I think . . .


*Spoiler*: _Dance with Dragons spoiler_ 



I remember reading a while back at Westeros.org's spoilers that Tyrion is gonna meet him in the beginning of the book . . . 




For the next episode, since George is writing, we might finally see and know what happens to Syrio, forever ending or reaffirming the millions of random theories about what happened to him.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (May 31, 2011)

From what I've found, Illyrio hasn't been seen outside one of Daenerys's POVs and one of Arya's POVs and last acted in _Clash of Kings_ when Belwas was sent to Daenerys. I haven't seen mention of him being attacked.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> LOL, stopping your immature children from making catastrophic mistakes is like one of the most important parts of parenting. You forget how weak Dorne is; the desert and the people makes them pretty hard to invade but they just flat out don't have the numbers to enforce anything.



Even if you say that, I still believe that there was nothing immature or impulsive about what Arianne was planning; she is a grown adult, and she has the freedom to make her own decisions, so Doran was not respecting her freedom and independence by doing what he did.



Fenix Down said:


> I think you mixed up Illyrio and Syrio - Syrio being the one who trained Arya and stayed back to fight off the soldiers and Kingsguard dude.
> Illyrio I believe, is still wherever he was, in Pentos I think . . .





That is quite a significant mistake that I made, confusing two completely different characters for each other.

Now that I have realized my mistake, let me rephrase what I said above: to the best of my knowledge, the last that we, the audience, ever saw or Syrio, he was fending away royal guards and told Arya to escape, so his ultimate fate has not been confirmed, so I therefore hope that he may return to play some role later in the series.


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Even if you say that, I still believe that there was nothing immature or impulsive about what Arianne was planning; she is a grown adult, and she has the freedom to make her own decisions, so Doran was not respecting her freedom and independence by doing what he did.


Doran is the Prince of Dorne, not Arianne. She was overstepping her bounds by a significant margin and would have led the region to ruin had her coup not been stopped. As mentioned before, Dorne does not have the power to take on Westeros by itself. Arianne was oblivious to this fact.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Doran is the Prince of Dorne, not Arianne. She was overstepping her bounds by a significant margin and would have led the region to ruin had her coup not been stopped. As mentioned before, Dorne does not have the power to take on Westeros by itself. Arianne was oblivious to this fact.



Yes, I know that, but the reason that I am upset over Doran's actions is that Myrcella _is_ a better choice of monarch for all the kingdoms than either Joffrey, and that no one else apart from Arianne seems to recognize her as such.

In other words, I care more about Myrcella than I do about the entire nation of Dorne, being that she is a named character who is a member of a major noble house of the series.


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I know that, but the reason that I am upset over Doran's actions is that Myrcella _is_ a better choice of monarch for all the kingdoms than either Joffrey, and that no one else apart from Arianne seems to recognize her as such.
> 
> In other words, I care more about Myrcella than I do about the entire nation of Dorne.


Doran is focusing on the bigger picture and the bigger cheese - Viserys/Dany and the return of the Targaryens. Myrcella may be a better ruler than Joffery and Tommen, but she is nothing compared to Dany and her dragons.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Doran is focusing on the bigger picture and the bigger cheese - Viserys/Dany and the return of the Targaryens. Myrcella may be a better ruler than Joffery and Tommen, but she is nothing compared to Dany and her dragons.



Daenerys is impulsive and self-centered, burning anyone who does not agree with her or with whom she is angry, so how could she possibly be a better ruler than then mature and rational Myrcella?


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Daenerys is impulsive and self-centered, burning anyone who does not agree with her or with whom she is angry, so how could she possibly be a better than then mature and rational Myrcella?


You're exaggerating Dany's bad qualities and overestimating Myrcella, a little girl who has never had to take on any responsibility in her life.

Dany has dragons, armies, and the famed Ser Barristan. Myrcella has a tenuous claim to Casterly Rock. See where I'm going with this?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> You're exaggerating Dany's bad qualities and overestimating Myrcella, a little girl who has never had to take on any responsibility in her life.
> 
> Dany has dragons, armies, and the famed Ser Barristan. Myrcella has a tenuous claim to Casterly Rock. See where I'm going with this?



So, are you saying that having physical power is more important to being a ruler than being calm and rational?


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> So, are you saying that having physical power is more important to being a ruler than being calm and rational?


I'm saying that Dorne supporting Myrcella is a dead-end. 

Once again, you're fixated on Myrcella's supposed attributes while ignoring the fact that she's a spoiled little girl who has never had to do anything. Dany has leadership experience, good advisors, and is learning from her mistakes.


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## Serp (Jun 1, 2011)

Myrcella is the best Lannister to rule, the Lannisters ordered the death of Elia's children Doran and the rest of the Dornish Royal family hold no love for Lannisters. So why would Doran want a Lannister in power even if it Myrcella, when he could have a Targaryen.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2011)

I had no idea that this thread existed...I have missed out on my book discussion >.>

Do not read if you haven't read the books!

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 





When I read where Robb, my poor Robb, dies and Catelyn is bled dry, I was like "okay, here comes the overload of Stark death". I like Robb and Catelyn, but I could have gone on with their deaths.

And then I read the part that brilliantly makes it seem as if the axe* killed* Arya and I grew the angriest I have ever been. If she had been dead I would have stopped reading (actually did that day and only continued early the next morning) and stopped watching the show. Not even Dany, the dragons and Jon would have turned me otherwise. But then I decided I might as well finish this last book, just in case. I found she was still alive and "Whooo'd!". Now I will continue, because Arya is the greatest :33

And reading about Joff's death was a sweet, gread read especially after what he made my Tyrion do and how he almost killed the cool little boy Brann. Jaime won me over with the latest books. I never really hated him, I suppose, just didn't care for him is all. But what he did for his brother, Brienne and said that Joff deserved death, changed my mind. Still hate Cersei though.

Tyrion murdering his father? ABOUT TIME! I was getting angry because he let all these people walk over him. Glad to see it happen. 

But I have come for a few questions that confused as I read last night, which could be the cause of it.

1. Did I seriously read Peytr kissing Sansa?! What a pedo-bear! Also, it was totally unexpected to read him killing Cat's sister. What will Cat do when she hears of it? I can't only imagine...

2. I read that Cat died. But when I read her alive, it freaked me out. Resurrection, but how? Who found her? Did they find her in a certain time, or did something else happen? Someone explain T.T


And wow! Dany! She should have just killed Jorah. If he betrays you once, he's likely to do it again, especially if you deny to be with him.


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## Serp (Jun 1, 2011)

Terra you want answers yes, welcome to spoiler land. 
Petyr pervs on Sansa because she looks like a younger more beautiful Cat and he loves Cat so he grooming the younger model.


And if you want me to explain Cat I will.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 1, 2011)

You learn what happened to Catelyn in AFfC. I think it's towards the end of the book though.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2011)

@Serperion Targaryen:
Yes, please. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Does he thinking killing Cat's sister will make Sansa fall for him or something?





@The Imp:
I know she 
*Spoiler*: __ 



has been brought back to life and whatnot, I was hoping for a bigger explanation. Has this little resurrection changed her? Is she evil now? How will she react upon hearing her children, are alive? Will she hate them, or kill them? Something? Is she still human, just...mutilated?


----------



## Serp (Jun 1, 2011)

Beric Dondarrion gave up his immortal life given to him from Rholl'r to her. She got pulled out the river, Nymeria protected her corpse but she was already slightly rotting. But in the end she came back to life in a zombie body. So it proves that Melisandre might have some proof in her belief in Rholl'r.

@Imp you have heard the kissed by fire theory right?


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## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2011)

@Serperion Targaryen:

*Spoiler*: __ 




I see! I knew Arya's Direwolf would come back! :33

Thanks, Serperion


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 1, 2011)

Terra, have you read Feast for the Crows yet? That whole Berric thing is kinda revealed there. . . . 

When I first read the Arya taking the axe in the back of the head thing, I skimmed furiously through the book to see if she had a chapter, and was thankful to see her name on the title page.


----------



## Serp (Jun 1, 2011)

Have you heard the kissed by fire theory?


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 1, 2011)

What is the kissed by fire theory?


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## Serp (Jun 1, 2011)

Its theory as to why Cat and Beric could come back from the dead but noone else Thoros tried worked.

Its the theory that natural red heads can harness the power of Rholl'r. Ygritte says that having red hair means your lucky and kissed by fire, the technique that Thoros uses to revive people is the kiss of life, where he kisses fire down your throat. And Berics blood burned like wildfire when burnt on his sword. Because Cat and Beric are red heads and thus kissed by fire, the kiss of life (fire) could revive them and not anyone else. Could also explain that gingers are more in tuned with fire magic, hence Melisandre.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 1, 2011)

So Rulore likes his Gingers eh - the whore Roz may be more important than anyone ever suspected, and that's why HBO put her in. 

But yeah, that sounds plausible. Is there any redheads on the wall right now that Mel can manipulate? That one kid Satyn maybe?


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## Serp (Jun 1, 2011)

I can't think of any red heads on the wall for the life of me. And all the dead ones would have been burnt.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> I'm saying that Dorne supporting Myrcella is a dead-end.
> 
> Once again, you're fixated on Myrcella's supposed attributes while ignoring the fact that she's a spoiled little girl who has never had to do anything. Dany has leadership experience, good advisors, and is learning from her mistakes.



Very well, I shall admit that I perhaps am being rather irrational about Myrcella as a possible queen of Westeros, but I still hope that she does not suffer too greatly as the story progresses. As for Daenerys, if she can learn to not be so impulsive and burn anyone who displeases her, she may become a wise and effective ruler.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Terra, have you read Feast for the Crows yet? That whole Berric thing is kinda revealed there. . . .
> 
> When I first read the Arya taking the axe in the back of the head thing, I skimmed furiously through the book to see if she had a chapter, and was thankful to see her name on the title page.



Yes, I have. I wanted a bit more behind the scene when Cat was brought back as I haven't read pass the last book yet 

Though I will re-read the whole book again. It and the 2 book was my favorite, so I have to read them once more xD


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## Coteaz (Jun 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> As for Daenerys, if she can learn to not be so impulsive and burn anyone who displeases her, she may become a wise and effective ruler.


That's really the whole reason why Dany is staying in Meereen instead of marching onward. She knows that she isn't an effective ruler so she wants more experience. 

I'm torn, though. I'm excited to see the Dorne + Targaryen alliance in action, but I'm a Stannis fanboy at heart.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> As for Daenerys, if she can learn to not be so impulsive and burn anyone who displeases her, she may become a wise and effective ruler.



She hasn't really been burning _anyone_ she's displeased with.  Jorah and the others who lied to her and went against her family would have been torched, by now. 

She did it to those who either deserved it or she did it because it needed to happen.


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## hehey (Jun 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> As for Daenerys, if she can learn to not be so impulsive and burn anyone who displeases her, she may become a wise and effective ruler.


she really does that?. wow, i dint really expect that,... i dunno, il admit that reading A Sword of Storms i kind of skipped/skimmed through all of her chapters and found out what happened in them from the net.

I dont like her chapters, up until she realized the old dude was Baristan it was so annoying that her story happening on teh other side of the world while everything and everyone else i cared about was in Westeros.... just cant see to care.

I may read her chaps on my second read through (if there is one). I ordered all the books from amazon after i saw episode 2 of the TV show, arrived in a week and i read all of them in about 10 days.


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## Coteaz (Jun 1, 2011)

Daenerys isn't that bad. Honestly, her most rash decision in that vein was banishing Jorah Mormont after he and Barristan saved the day in Meereen.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Daenerys isn't that bad. Honestly, her most rash decision in that vein was banishing Jorah Mormont after he and Barristan saved the day in Meereen.



Agreed.

She isn't burning whomever she isn't pleased with. She burned, I think, about 2-3 people so far and it was needed. They were dirty, lying thieves.


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## Nayrael (Jun 2, 2011)

> I may read her chaps on my second read through (if there is one). I ordered all the books from amazon after i saw episode 2 of the TV show, arrived in a week and i read all of them in about 10 days.



You'll need to read them if you intend to read ADWD. She has most chapters there and at least 3 more POV character stories happen in the East (might be 1 or 2 more).


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## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2011)

>.<

*Spoiler*: __ 



So who _is_ Jon's mother?

I have a feeling Ned isn't even his father, either. Something seems fishy. Maybe he's related to the Targaryens? Or maybe the Lannisters? Or something much different. 

What do you guys think? Its been bugging me for a while now...


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 2, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> >.<
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



The most popular theory is that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> The most popular theory is that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.




*Spoiler*: __ 





It would certainly make sense why Ned wouldn't tell him...


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 2, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



And what his promise to Lyanna was about.

Though it begs the question, if the symbol of the three-headed dragon is truly a reference to there being three Targaryens about and Daenerys and Jon are two of them, who is the third?


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## martryn (Jun 2, 2011)

So, are we spoilering everything that hasn't been revealed in the television show yet, or...  I haven't been in this thread in a while.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 





Maybe the third is Dany's kid? Or, um...maybe there is another out there. Or maybe a Targaryen still lives. 




@martryn:
I'm doing it for those who haven't reached that far yet


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## Cyphon (Jun 2, 2011)

From seeing the convo above a couple questions came to mind:

1. How do you think Catelyn would react to the news of Jon being a Targaryen and not actually Neds bastard? Do you think she would then accept him or maybe fear him or would she remain the same?

1a. How do you think Jon would take it and act toward her?

2. Any theories on who the 3rd "head" would be if Jon and Dany are 1 and 2?


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## Coteaz (Jun 2, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> 2. Any theories on who the 3rd "head" would be if Jon and Dany are 1 and 2?


Sam the Slayer.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> From seeing the convo above a couple questions came to mind:
> 
> 1. How do you think Catelyn would react to the news of Jon being a Targaryen and not actually Neds bastard? Do you think she would then accept him or maybe fear him or would she remain the same?
> 
> ...



I think she wouldn't care and still love him. She knows him, afterall


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## The Imp (Jun 2, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> I think she wouldn't care and still love him. She knows him, afterall



 Catelyn hates Jon


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## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Catelyn hates Jon



Shuddap. I can dream.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 2, 2011)

Catelyn would hate him more for being of better stock than her own children. She always was a bitch.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2011)

I need someone to  
*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



replace my beloved Robb. The man with beautiful hair, eyes and amazing lips


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 2, 2011)

what is with the douchebag spoiler tags, the last book came out like seven years ago.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2011)

And believe it or not, not everyone has read them. xD

I just started the last book >.>


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## Mori` (Jun 3, 2011)

Read a pretty awesome theory this morning on Reddit. Some deeper reading into a few devious character shenanigans.

re: Littlefinger and Robert's extravagance.


*Spoiler*: __ 



http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/hqf86/nonstandard_conspiracy_theorieswill_be/

_I'm curious what people's favorites are. Not stuff like R+L=J, but smaller, more off the wall theories. Mine is one I came up with myself, that Robert didn't actually bankrupt the 7 kingdoms, Littlefinger did.

Think about it. Robert can't possibly have been responsible for the amount of debt the crown has accumulated. The Hands tourney, which was supposed to be ludicrously extravagant, cost ~100k dragons. But the crown is debt for 6 MILLION dragons. In order to get 6 million in debt in 15 years, Robert would have had to have a hands tourney level expense every 3 months. And that's before we take into account the crown's incomes. We don't know how much those are, but we know that the crown wasn't in debt when Robert took over, Ned says that "Aerys left a treasury flowing with gold". And revenues have grown massively in the intervening 15 years, Tywin says that "crown incomes are now 10 times higher than they were under Aerys".

What I think happened is that in the immediate aftermath of the revolt there were a lot of expenses, like rebuilding Kings Landing, that did strain the crown's resources. To solve the problem Jon Aryn brought in Littlefinger, who he knew was good with money. Once in KL though, LF rapidly realized three things. First none of the people above him know or care anything about money, as long as they have enough of it. Second, if he solves the crown's financial problems, he becomes disposable. Third, if he makes the crown's finances look desperate, but still always manages to have enough money, he'll look like an indispensible genius.

So makes it his goal to ensure that the crown's finances are in a state of perpetual crisis. He deliberately borrows money at exorbidant rates so the crown has to pay the interest, he increases the crown's payroll as much as possible, and of course, he steals as much as possible through overcharging, fake identities, double billing, and anything else he can think of. If the crown ever does actually come up a little short, and he can't borrow, he uses his own now massive wealth to make up the difference, presumably lent to the crown through third parties at usurious rates. The end result is that the crown is broke, LF has accumulated a fortune worth literally millions of dragons, and no one is the wiser.

And there's more evidence than just the numbers. Tyrion, who's one of the smartest characters we meet, could barely make sense of the books LF left, and was starting think something suspicious was going on. Also, we have the scene in AFFC where Jaime goes down to the dungeon and finds that it employs "20 turnkeys, six undergaolers, a chief undergaoler, a gaoler, and a Kings justice" to guard 6 prisoners. Do we really think that if Littlefinger, financial wiz kid, would never have gotten around to eliminating these positions if he was really desperate for money? And if the crown really was as bankrupt as we are lead to believe, where did the money for the wildfire, chain, and extra goldcloaks come from? If anything, the war should have disrupted tax collection. Littlefinger beggaring the realm is the only thing that fits with the facts we have and all these little GRRM trademarked crumbs of doubt._


----------



## Felix (Jun 3, 2011)

Interesting read indeed


----------



## Serp (Jun 3, 2011)

I always though Littlefinger was fucking with the crown for his own means.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 3, 2011)

Makes sense. I buy it.


----------



## martryn (Jun 3, 2011)

Littlefinger has always been one of my favorite characters.  Anything where he sticks it to the man... I support.


----------



## masamune1 (Jun 3, 2011)

But....he _is_ the man.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 3, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> Read a pretty awesome theory this morning on Reddit. Some deeper reading into a few devious character shenanigans.
> 
> re: Littlefinger and Robert's extravagance.
> 
> ...



I'm no master at the books or LittleFinger's character, but it sounds like him. xD


----------



## The Imp (Jun 3, 2011)

There's already a review out for ADwD. I haven't read it yet because of spoilers.


----------



## Mori` (Jun 3, 2011)

I heard it was as slow paced as Feast.

Then I ran away because I realised it discussed some plot paths


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 3, 2011)

I enjoyed Feast, so it sounds good to me.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 3, 2011)

I just now learned the difference between wights and the Others 

I thought I had remembered 2 different types of "creatures" beyond the wall but then started thinking they were the same thing. So to make sure I am clear on this:

The Others have blue eyes and die easy from dragonglass and the wights are reanimated corpses that were killed by the Others and they die by fire (they also have blue eyes). So does it also work in the reverse order? Do the Others die by fire as well as dragonglass and vice versa for the wights?


----------



## The Imp (Jun 3, 2011)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we've only seen the others twice. In AGoT's prologue and when Sam kills it. Every other time was a wight. 

Also I remember somebody trying to attack the Others with fire and it didn't work. Then Sam killed it with his dragonglass dagger. We never see a wight being killed with dragonglass afaik but I imagine it would work on them. 

I wonder what wildfire would do to the Others though.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 3, 2011)

Just read the review and there were 2 interesting tidbits:

1. The one in here isn't really a major spoiler or anything.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*More characters are revived than killed off*

Who do you think this applies too?




2. Neither is this one but it may be something small people don't wish to know now


*Spoiler*: __ 



Martin keeps it fresh by focusing on popular characters Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and Jon Snow, all notably absent from the previous book. These three are generally thought the most plausible riders of the titular dragons, but plots within plots abound, and *two strong new candidates for those scaly saddles emerge*

I find the bold to be very enticing




@Imp - I actually just read the part with Sam. Grenn tried to use fire but the other chopped the tip off of his torch. So no definitive answer but maybe the Other feared the fire.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 3, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 




I hope we get more of Dany, Arya, Jon and loads more Tyrion. They (well, of course not Tyrion and Jon) were way too absent in the last book >.>


Revived?! 

Robb and Ned would be nice :33
As long as they aren't all deady like Catelyn xD


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 3, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Both are currently headless, rotting corpses (bones in Ned's case). Might be a wee bit difficult to give a headless corpse the kiss of life. 

Also, they may be referring to characters who were only believed to be "dead" by the Feast characters, like Davos.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 3, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



If bringing a dead person back (if that's what they mean) is possible, so is bringing a headless one back. 

Why are you guys always crushing my hopes?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 3, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> The Others have blue eyes and die easy from dragonglass and the wights are reanimated corpses that were killed by the Others and they die by fire (they also have blue eyes). So does it also work in the reverse order? Do the Others die by fire as well as dragonglass and vice versa for the wights?


I work under the assumption that in the pecking order, Others are the greater mangical creatures compared to the wights. As such, the "magic" in dragonglass would work on the wights as well since they are lesser creatures, however, with dragonglass's rarity, it is easier and makes more sense to save the glass for the Others. Similarly, I don't expect fire to be as harmful for Others as it is for wights, but I do see it as still being painful to them and a viable defense and hindrance.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 3, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> I work under the assumption that in the pecking order, Others are the greater mangical creatures compared to the wights. As such, the "magic" in dragonglass would work on the wights as well since they are lesser creatures, however, with dragonglass's rarity, it is easier and makes more sense to save the glass for the Others. Similarly, I don't expect fire to be as harmful for Others as it is for wights, but I do see it as still being painful to them and a viable defense and hindrance.



I can agree with this line of thought, makes sense.

Edit: Although it appears it is incorrect.


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 3, 2011)

Wasn't there a scene where Sam tried to stab a wight with his obsidian dagger, but it broke because the wight was made of flesh and bone?


----------



## Serp (Jun 4, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Wasn't there a scene where Sam tried to stab a wight with his obsidian dagger, but it broke because the wight was made of flesh and bone?


I recall that scene too.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 4, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Wasn't there a scene where Sam tried to stab a wight with his obsidian dagger, but it broke because the wight was made of flesh and bone?



Yes, Sam though it might work on a Wight as well but it didn't.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 4, 2011)

I broke and read the Jon chapter on George's site. 


*Spoiler*: __ 







Stannis and Jon interactions are gold, and Stannis is _still _going on about how "Lord Eddard was no friend of mine!" 

That last line from Mel was just FFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU  :ho

I want the book so bad now 






			
				Coteaz said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Technically, Robb still has a head attached to his neck . . .


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 4, 2011)

I broke and spoiled the first four books for myself when I started reading them, so this time I resolved to not read any chapters before Dance comes out. 



> Technically, Robb still has a head attached to his neck . . .


"Young Wolf" indeed.


----------



## Felix (Jun 4, 2011)

I'm afraid of getting too attached to Stannis :/


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 4, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Technically, Robb still has a head attached to his neck . . .


mad:

*Spoiler*: __ 





It would actually be kinda cool if he was revived that way


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 4, 2011)

That Jon chapter on GRRM's website is likely one of if not _the_ first chapter of the book. It actually takes place before most of AFFC. Wasn't there one Jon chapter in AFFC where we see Sam off (which would be after the sample)? It's been ages...

There's no reason not to read it, as I see it. Nothing much spoilery in it if you've read AFFC.

I've also read the Dany chapter he cycles on the site. (And I maybe one more sample?) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



HUNGRY DRAGONS.


 I'd like to see what, if anything, he's changed over the years.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 4, 2011)

Wait....on the website they host chapters of the book? I didn't know this!


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 4, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Wait....on the website they host chapters of the book? I didn't know this!



Yes, from what I have observed, there are four sample chapters currently available; one each from the perspectives of Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Theon (yes, he is still alive)


; they were all very interesting, especially the one from Jon's perspective, so I am now very eager to read the book and learn what happens to Jon at the Wall.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 4, 2011)

Oh, a Dany and Tryion chapter? If only there was a Arya chapter...Oh well, I'll still read. Does anyone have a link to it? I'm on my PSP so google friggin' sucks xD


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 4, 2011)

Here's the Tyroin chapter, (thank you google, will be reading NAO), but I can't find the Dany or other chapter. 



> To be published by Bantam Books; Copyright ? 2004 by George R.R. Martin.



It must have changed A LOT since then. The  said 2008.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 4, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Here's the Tyroin chapter, (thank you google, will be reading NAO), but I can't find the Dany or other chapter.
> 
> 
> 
> It must have changed A LOT since then. The  said 2008.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Thanks for posting, Fenix! At first I was angry at Tyrion for treating the woman that way, but I can't stay mad at Tyrion, especially after what he went through.

The ending!


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 5, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



For some odd reason, I can't help but think that Tywin would approve of his treatment of that chick.  

His few musings of backing Myrcella this chapter is like a microcosm what happens in the Dorne Chapters during Feast, complete with the Dany tidbit at the end.




And google has brought me this boon - all 4 released sample chapters, in English and Spanish. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Ramsey is sounding super ambitious right now - wanting to overthrow his father mayhaps?


----------



## The Imp (Jun 5, 2011)

I just got to the Red Wedding in my re-read. It's still so devastating. 

If they split ASoS into two for the TV show. I hope the last shot of season 3 is Robb sitting on a throne with Grey Wind's head sewn to his body. It would make for such a chilling last scene.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 5, 2011)

The Imp said:


> I just got to the Red Wedding in my re-read. It's still so devastating.
> 
> If they split ASoS into two for the TV show. I hope the last shot of season 3 is Robb sitting on a throne with Grey Wind's head sewn to his body. It would make for such a chilling last scene.



I am closing in on that part as well. Just finished the scene of Mormont being betrayed in Craster's house. Not so bad as the Red Wedding but still kind of sad. Felt like the Watch was doomed.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 5, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I am closing in on that part as well. Just finished the scene of Mormont being betrayed in Craster's house. Not so bad as the Red Wedding but still kind of sad. Felt like the Watch was doomed.



Yes, I was not at all pleased by either of those events, not only because numerous major characters died in each of them, but also because there were the result of certain charatcers betraying other characters. Why do some characters in this series change their loyalty so easily, when promised wealth and power? I am appalled, and also saddened, by the lack of charatcers who remain true to their beliefs despite the consequences for doing so. If more people in this series were like Ned or Davos, there would be far less conflict in it, in my opinion.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 5, 2011)

Another great quote from A Feast For Crows

"Now that tywin is gone, who will protect us?
Jamie: He left a son
Aye, that is what I fear the most
Why would you fear that?
You're great but you're not Tywin's son. Tyrion is"


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 5, 2011)

who said that?

Jamie said himself that Tywin's true son is Tyrion.

Jamie and Tyrion would make the perfect rulers, together.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 5, 2011)

No. Genna says that Tyrion was Tywin's true son.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 5, 2011)

I'll try find the passage.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 5, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, Asha is one of POV's in ADWD


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 5, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I was not at all pleased by either of those events, not only because numerous major characters died in each of them, but also because there were the result of certain charatcers betraying other characters. Why do some characters in this series change their loyalty so easily, when promised wealth and power? I am appalled, and also saddened, by the lack of charatcers who remain true to their beliefs despite the consequences for doing so. If more people in this series were like Ned or Davos, there would be far less conflict in it, in my opinion.



The Mormont moment wasn't all that surprising because we knew chapters in advance that people weren't happy. It also isn't that surprising just based off of who that group consists of. It is mostly criminals anyway so it is kind of to be expected. 

The Red Wedding was far more shocking but looking back on it, it doesn't come across as so shocking given the character traits of Frey. Add into that the major slight from Robb and he kind of has a decent reason for doing what he did. I hated it but still.....

And you are right. A couple more characters sticking to their values would be a good thing. That is why I like Tyrion and seeing Jamie grow as a character. 



Seiko said:


> Does Asha have a POV in A Dance with Dragons? I adore her...



She is the girl with Rickon right? I hope he does some cool shit with Shaggydog.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 5, 2011)

less stableboys but more sneak thieves and rapers


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 5, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> You're great but you're not Tywin's son. Tyrion is"



Without Tyrion on their side, they shall crumble.

Why? Because he's so awesome :33


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm close to finishing the first book,at the last Sansa chapter specifically.I'll have alot to think about and digest once I finish the book but right now I just have to say that the dumb birdbrain bitch deserves every abuse she gets and more.


----------



## abcd (Jun 6, 2011)

Did Lyanna have stolkholm syndrome


----------



## Felix (Jun 6, 2011)

abcd said:


> Did Lyanna have stolkholm syndrome



Who said she was taken forcefully?

Anyway the latest TV episode was written by G.R.R.M himself and Syrio Forell "death" was left open as well, but this time with an added line:

"What do we say to the God of Death?"
"Not today"

My hope that he still lives is renewed


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2011)

Just read Brienne Vs Bitter

How the hell was that supposed to be a man of the night's watch?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 6, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> Just read Brienne Vs Bitter
> 
> How the hell was that supposed to be a man of the night's watch?



Apparently, the Night's Watch is composed of thieves and criminals, rather than goodly, virtuous people (that is not to say that thieves and criminals lack virtue, however), and Biter was apparently such a person. I recall that I myself suggested that criminals in actuality be forced to serve in the military as punishment, but after seeing how well, or not so well, that tactic worked, I am considering revising my opinion on that subject.


----------



## martryn (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm wondering if I should read the series again before the next book.  Kinda up in the air for me right now.  My other option is to refer to the wiki over and over again _while_ reading the next book, and that's the option I'm sorta leaning toward.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 6, 2011)

*We have signed Friedel.* has summaries for each chapter, so you might want to check that out instead


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Apparently, the Night's Watch is composed of thieves and criminals, rather than goodly, virtuous people (that is not to say that thieves and criminals lack virtue, however), and Biter was apparently such a person. I recall that I myself suggested that criminals in actuality be forced to serve in the military as punishment, but after seeing how well, or not so well, that tactic worked, I am considering revising my opinion on that subject.



They have standards.

Why don't I neg you, again?


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Asha is the older sister of Theon, and there were chapters from her perspective in _A Feast for Crows_ and will be in _A Dance with Dragons._ Osha is the woman who is protecting Rickon in his journey, and there have been no chapters from her perspective, so I would very much like to have such a chapter in a future book, so that we, the audience can actually learn what is happening to Rickon.



Oh yeah 

Anyway you are right. Osha should get some POV so we can get some insight into Rickon. He seems like he would pull some funny little child antics and Shaggydog would do alot of attacking.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 6, 2011)

Rickon just seems to be in the story so he can inherit Winterfell and carry on the Stark bloodline when the series ends.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 6, 2011)

I am hoping George double R decides to go ahead and give Rickon some power even though he is young. Nothing too grand but at least something.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2011)

Brienne's execution feels really retarded which I guess means it will mean everything in DOD


----------



## Snickers (Jun 6, 2011)

Bran's going to solo Westeros.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 6, 2011)

Snickers said:


> Bran's going to solo Westeros.


One bowel movement at a time.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 6, 2011)

Random question but what is your favorite Dire Wolf name? (directed at anyone who cares to answer).


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2011)

Ghost, Summer, Nymeria, Greywind, Fuzzydog, Lady

Although my favorite direwolves are
Greywind, Nymeria, Summer, Ghost, Lady, Fuzzydog


----------



## Borel (Jun 6, 2011)

For me (in terms of names), Nymeria > Ghost > Grey Wind > Summer > Lady > Shaggydog.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2011)

> Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Stannis and Melisandre, Davos Seaworth, and all the rest of the
> characters you love or love to hate will be along *next year* (I devoutly hope) in A
> Dance with Dragons, which will focus on events along the Wall and across the sea,
> just as the present book focused on King’s Landing.



I laughed my ass off


----------



## The Imp (Jun 6, 2011)

I like Ghost's name the most, but Grey Wind and Summer are my favourite direwolves.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 6, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> They have standards.



Apparently, the Night's Watch does not have standards, if they employ criminals and murders as their soldiers.



Banhammer said:


> Why don't I neg you, again?



What quarrel do you have with me, Banhammer? I have _never_ committed any act even remotely resembling an insult toward you, yes you are constantly very rude toward me, so I am very much of the opinion that you are attempting to bully me, now. Can we not resolve this conflict in a rational and mature manner? If not, I shall so that I am not easily intimidated, so I shall ask you very politely, to please stop now.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 6, 2011)

> Random question but what is your favorite Dire Wolf name? (directed at anyone who cares to answer).


Nymeria and Greywind. I had a wolf that looked like Greywind, she was beautiful. 



DemonDragonJ said:


> Apparently, the Night's Watch is composed of thieves and criminals, rather than goodly, virtuous people (that is not to say that thieves and criminals lack virtue, however), and Biter was apparently such a person. I recall that I myself suggested that criminals in actuality be forced to serve in the military as punishment, but after seeing how well, or not so well, that tactic worked, I am considering revising my opinion on that subject.



It isn't *full* of thieves, rapists or criminals, it has some in when the criminals choose it but it isn' composed of criminals. At least that's not what I have read, and if its in the book, I surely don't recall it. 

*But if I'm wrong, please provide the chapter it was at. *


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 6, 2011)

Biter would be BFFs with the HBO version of Alliser Thorne. 

The Nights Watch takes everyone, from high lords, exiled Hands and brothers of Kings, to the lowest scum, rapists, regicides, kinslayers and the like. 

As long as you have a Hodor swinging between your legs, you're qualified to be a brother of the Nightswatch.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 7, 2011)

@Fenix Down :
I know they except everyone, I meant "I haven't read that it is entirely composed of criminals"


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 7, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> It isn't *full* of thieves, rapists or criminals, it has some in when the criminals choose it but it isn' composed of criminals. At least that's not what I have read, and if its in the book, I surely don't recall it.
> 
> *But if I'm wrong, please provide the chapter it was at. *



No, I agree with you; I never said that every member of the Night's Watch was a criminal, but at least several of its members are, and that could theoretically lead to tension or lack of discipline among their ranks, as was seen when
*Spoiler*: __ 



 they betrayed Mormont and killed him and several others who were loyal to him.


----------



## Pintsize (Jun 7, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Here's the Tyroin chapter, (thank you google, will be reading NAO), but I can't find the Dany or other chapter.
> 
> 
> 
> It must have changed A LOT since then. The  said 2008.



@ Jon chapter: Melisandreeeeee.


----------



## Nightfall (Jun 7, 2011)

Jon chapter was....I need to know more 

Good thing the book isn't far off.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 7, 2011)

I am so very excited for this book, that I shall reserve a copy of it at a local bookstore, so that I can be certain that I can obtain it on the same day of its release.

I am particularly eager to learn what is happening with Bran, after his conspicuous absence from _A Dance with Dragons;_ it would be interesting to see him gain greater control over his abilities, and what new developments he may undergo.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm going to be honest. 

As much as I adore nearly every character in the series, I want a lot more Arya, Dany and Tyrion. More chapters, long, awesome chapters. To a point where I want most of the book to be  (mostly) about them. Though then I would miss the others, my Arya, Tyrion and Dany love would be fulfilled.


----------



## Pintsize (Jun 8, 2011)

I want more chapters about Jon and Dany, they have the most dynamic storylines. I want more chapters about Tyrion and Arya, they're the most dynamic characters. I want Jaime and Brienne, they're the most interesting couple, haha. And I want THE MAGE. If I can have a book mostly of that, with some chapters letting me know what's going on elsewhere, with a few nice surprises thrown in, I'll be more than happy, I'll be thrilled.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 8, 2011)

Will there ever be a champion for the forces of ice? Daenerys with her dragons seems to be the champion for the forces of fire, but we don't really have a character associated with the ice, besides the nameless Others. Could that be why Bran was lured to beyond the Wall?


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 8, 2011)

I wouldn't hold my breath for a frost nova summoning mage.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 8, 2011)

I wonder when Kharma is gonna hit Jamie.
By which I mean when will he realize the turn of the situation's tables. He crippled Bran Stark and then Vargo Hoat working for the wolves crippled him


----------



## siyrean (Jun 8, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Just read the review and there were 2 interesting tidbits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm sure one is the mummers dragon likely the young gryff either posing as baby Aegon or out right claiming himself a blackfyre. 
there's the hint that Dany has a thing with Victaron so maybe him if the reviewer is just trying to throw out names of people close to Dany. And isn't what's his face, Doran's son, also out to woo her? Guh, I gotta reread them dorn chapters again.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 8, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath for a frost nova summoning mage.



Why not? That would be so utterly awesome, in my mind.


----------



## Felix (Jun 8, 2011)

I bet the new candidates are 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Victorion/Euron & Quentyn




I seriously don't understand why people hated Feast for Crows
It give us the much needed depth to the Iron Islands and Dorne, sure it feels like a Gaiden book, but it feels... wrong for a fanbase to regard so highly a couple of characters when we know anyone can kick the bucket


----------



## The Imp (Jun 8, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> Will there ever be a champion for the forces of ice? Daenerys with her dragons seems to be the champion for the forces of fire, but we don't really have a character associated with the ice, besides the nameless Others. Could that be why Bran was lured to beyond the Wall?



I've read theories that GRRM is grooming Stannis to become the next Night's King. I don't think it's likely, but who knows.


----------



## masamune1 (Jun 8, 2011)

Felix said:


> I bet the new candidates are
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Not really. Anyone who believes that, has been tricked.

The vast majority of POV characters, and most supporting characters, are still alive. Ned was a deception. Like the idea of gray morality, the story is a lot more conventional than fans like to believe. While a lot of characters may die, most have thusfar survived the first four books and most will probably survive this fifth one. If a bunch of major characters actually die it probably won't be until the final novel.


----------



## Felix (Jun 8, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Not really. Anyone who believes that, has been tricked.
> 
> The vast majority of POV characters, and most supporting characters, are still alive. Ned was a deception. Like the idea of gray morality, the story is a lot more conventional than fans like to believe. While a lot of characters may die, most have thusfar survived the first four books and most will probably survive this fifth one. If a bunch of major characters actually die it probably won't be until the final novel.



But you can't guarantee anyone to stay alive to the end.
It wasn't just the case of Ned, we have plenty of "major" characters who died on our hands already.

About the morality, well, not everyone is grey, like a certain Joker says:
"Some people just wan't to see the world burn"


----------



## masamune1 (Jun 8, 2011)

Felix said:


> But you can't guarantee anyone to stay alive to the end.
> *It wasn't just the case of Ned, we have plenty of "major" characters who died on our hands already.*
> 
> About the morality, well, not everyone is grey, like a certain Joker says:
> "Some people just wan't to see the world burn"



Most of them are alive.

And, as is typical for a fantasy, that includes a few of the ones who died.

The major major characters- Jon, Tyrion, etc.; - I expect them to live to the end. What bothered people about _A Feast For Crows_ is that the real main characters- and there _are_ real main characters- didn't play much of a role.

The morality is my point. At the end of the day, there are good people and bad people, good sides and bad sides, and its not much more ambiguous than something like _LotR._


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 8, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> Will there ever be a champion for the forces of ice? Daenerys with her dragons seems to be the champion for the forces of fire, but we don't really have a character associated with the ice, besides the nameless Others. Could that be why Bran was lured to beyond the Wall?



Could it perhaps be Jon?


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 8, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> The morality is my point. At the end of the day, there are good people and bad people, good sides and bad sides, and its not much more ambiguous than something like _LotR._


There are terrible people and somewhat decent people, yes, but there aren't clearly defined "Good Sides" and "Bad Sides" like Men/Elves/Dwarves vs. Sauron in Lord of the Rings.

All factions have their fair share of decent individuals and murderous rapists.


----------



## masamune1 (Jun 8, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> There are terrible people and somewhat decent people, yes, but there aren't clearly defined "Good Sides" and "Bad Sides" like Men/Elves/Dwarves vs. Sauron in Lord of the Rings.
> 
> All factions have their fair share of decent individuals and murderous rapists.



The Lannisters have a few good people, but they are clearly the bad guys; the Starks have a few bad eggs, but they are clearly the good guys. The Night Watch has several murderers, but they are a heroic organization. The Others, from what we've seen, are pretty much set to be Sauron-level Evil. 

Its really more like this is Middle Earth before _Lord of the Rings;_ the people of Westeros probably _will_ gather together, as soon as the threat of the Others is established, but for now are wrapped up in pettier squabbles. Its a darker series than _LotR,_ but it still doesn't drift too far from the standard stuff.


----------



## Felix (Jun 8, 2011)

I have read this interesting article on the Martells interests on the war:



Very interesting read


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 8, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Could it perhaps be Jon?


I think that it's unlikely. Especially since I support the idea of him being one of the heads of the dragons, who are the bringers of fire, and since he is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, the group in direct opposition of the Others, and has killed Others and wights, who have slaughtered a number of his brethren.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 8, 2011)

So I just read the Red Wedding and man.....Such a fascinating scene including the follow up POV with Arya. Probably the most emotional I have felt from any of the books whether it be sadness or anger or shock or something. 

That said, I still think _Thrones_ might be my favorite book in the series so far. _Swords_ has a couple of the best scenes but as a whole I think I prefer _Thrones_.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 8, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> I think that it's unlikely. Especially since I support the idea of him being one of the heads of the dragons, who are the bringers of fire, and since he is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, the group in direct opposition of the Others, and has killed Others and wights, who have slaughtered a number of his brethren.



I was about to asking why can't he be both, but I think I just know he can't. xD

What about Sam then?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 8, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> I was about to asking why can't he be both, but I think I just know he can't. xD
> 
> What about Sam then?


Similar. Except instead of being the head of a dragon, he'll be a maester trained in magic and have learned further uses of dragonglass.

Plus, how could be betray Maester Aemon and Gilly like that?


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 8, 2011)

I don't hate Sansa...I think she's a good character even when she's being a snobby daughter/sister. Its that reason that she's believable and I love to read stories that have characters, no matter the side, that you like. 

I don't think there are any characters that I could or can "hate hate".



Shaidar Haran said:


> Similar. Except instead of being the head of a dragon, he'll be a maester trained in magic and have learned further uses of dragonglass.
> 
> Plus, how could be betray Maester Aemon and Gilly like that?





I have no more suggestions then.  

I too think that Jon will be one of the heads of the dragon.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 8, 2011)

Sam the Slayer as final villain? I like it.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 8, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Sam the Slayer as final villain? I like it.



Why would you want him as a villain?


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 8, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> The Lannisters have a few good people, but they are clearly the bad guys;


Define "bad." 
Cersei is a scheming cunt, but she's doing it for her children and to challenge the patriarchal society. Tywin was a cold bastard, but he was like that to preserve his family's power and rectify his father's mistakes. Jaime can be hotheaded and rash but is ultimately a decent man at heart. Kevan, Lancel, Daven, Genna, etc were shown in Feast to be relatively normal individuals who make mistakes like everyone else. 

The Lannisters aren't cackling fiends. 



> the Starks have a few bad eggs, but they are clearly the good guys.


The Starks are the central family to the storyline, nothing more. Had the first book's PoVs focused on the Lannister side of view, you'd be singing a different tune. 

Don't go off on the whole Gregor Clegane thing, either. All sides in the Westerosi civil war pillaged, raped, and murdered their way through enemy territory. Hell, Robb's forces sacked half of the Westerlands as vengeance for the Riverlands. 



> Its really more like this is Middle Earth before _Lord of the Rings;_ the people of Westeros probably _will_ gather together, as soon as the threat of the Others is established, but for now are wrapped up in pettier squabbles. Its a darker series than _LotR,_ but it still doesn't drift too far from the standard stuff.


Pure speculation at this point. Reasonable speculation, but I'm going to wait until the final book is in my hands before making such judgements.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 8, 2011)

I have to go with Masa on this one Coteaz. Not saying he is completely right but it comes off as pretty clear to me the Starks are the good guys and the Lannisters are the bad. You make fair enough points but from what I can see the Starks are meant to the good ones. All we hear about is how noble Ned is and making just that 1 mistake and Catelyn doing her duties and Robb being a lot like Ned etc...

On the Lannister side you have i*c*st, murdering their own kin, sending Gregor after people, hiring the Bloody Mummers and Joffery's entire reign as king with beating Sansa and having people fight to the death for the joy of it. 


On another note has anyone ever done or seen a power ranking list for the books? I know a lot of series like this generate lists where people try and place who the strongest or best fighters were supposed to be. I am interested in seeing how people view it.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 8, 2011)

If the Lannisters are the good guys (they have their sparks of good) and the Stark family the bad guys, I need a pair of glasses because from what I've read, the Starks aren't evil but not all the Lannisters are evil either.  

I'm sure if Ned or Robbert knew what Gregor Clegane had done (rape and their brutal death), they would have stopped it. At least Ned would have. He's all about honor and stuff.


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 8, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> You make fair enough points but from what I can see the Starks are meant to the good ones. All we hear about is how noble Ned is and making just that 1 mistake and Catelyn doing her duties and Robb being a lot like Ned etc...


Catelyn abducted a son of a great house at a whim and sparked civil war that has killed tens of thousands and ruined the lives of innumerable people. Ned's blind honor and ineptness prevented him from soothing the situation and instead inflamed it, causing the demise of his family. 

Wipe off the rosewater the Starks' vaunted nobility is nothing more than bullheaded stupidity. They may not send Gregor Clegane after farmers, but they'll sit on their asses and condemn the realm to fire and death over fucking honor. 



> On the Lannister side you have i*c*st, murdering their own kin, sending Gregor after people, hiring the Bloody Mummers and Joffery's entire reign as king with beating Sansa and having people fight to the death for the joy of it.


The Targaeryens practiced i*c*st, yet aside from Aerys II they were portrayed in a positive light. Gregor Clegane is simply a more brutal version of the average Westerosi solider. The Brave Companions are mercenaries who were hired by many sides over the course of the war. Joffery was out of line (Tywin was going to arrange for a suitable "lesson" in the vein of what he did to Tyrion). 

The Lannisters aren't the good guys, and neither are the Starks, or Tullys, or Baratheons, or Martells or what have you. They're all just players trying to win the game. Some are more successful than others.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 8, 2011)

i*c*st is the least of the Lannisters' problems. All the murder, betrayal, lying, rape, beatings and all that is the blood on their hands.

Ned was never trying to win the throne (At least I never read it that way), he was trying to protect people from Cersei and the Lannisters.


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 8, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Ned was never trying to win the throne (At least I never read it that way), he was trying to protect people from Cersei and the Lannisters.


No, he was trying to hand the throne to Stannis, who was next in line after Robert died and Cersei's adultery was uncovered. He was simply playing for someone else.


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## Terra Branford (Jun 8, 2011)

He never wanted to be Hand. He thought he had to to keep order and thought he was the only one who could. And 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 if he wasn't killed un-honorably, he would have done exactly that. 

The only Stark that tried to get the throne, was Robb.




EDIT:
Oh you meant "hand over". I thought you meant be the hand of. Still mean what I said


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 8, 2011)

sweeping generalisations, gotta love them.**


----------



## abcd (Jun 9, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Its really more like this is Middle Earth before _Lord of the Rings;_ the people of Westeros probably _will_ gather together, as soon as the threat of the Others is established, but for now are wrapped up in pettier squabbles. Its a darker series than _LotR,_ but it still doesn't drift too far from the standard stuff.






> Others are established characters, but new VIEWPOINTS; they have been around, but you've never gone inside their heads before. Once, a few years back, I said that I only meant to introduce one new viewpoint character in the book. Which just goes to show why I should never sound off about these things before the book is done. In the end, I wound up with.... hmmm, let me count 'em... one, two, three... ah... FOUR new viewpoint characters. And that doesn't even include the Prologue and Epilogue. So...





Am I the only one who assumes that when he says others , he means Others ?


----------



## Borel (Jun 9, 2011)

Well... I know I don't.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jun 9, 2011)

Felix said:


> I have read this interesting article on the Martells interests on the war:
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting read



Yeah that's an excellent write up, i read them for all the Great Houses. But reading them over it was plain to see how badly Martin and Littlefinger handicapped the Starks. 

If Lysa had remembered her own families Words and if Balon Greyjoy had been anything resembling sane then Robb really could have done it. Ned almost certainly would have. Its like Martin went out of his way to make the Starks fall. On paper Ned was every bit as powerful as Tywin and it was the Wolf and the Lion that was holding the realm together - its why Littlefinger picked them for his war. 



Coteaz said:


> Catelyn abducted a son of a great house at a whim and sparked civil war that has killed tens of thousands and ruined the lives of innumerable people. Ned's blind honor and ineptness prevented him from soothing the situation and instead inflamed it, causing the demise of his family.



See i just finished my re-read of GoT and realised it wasn't even blind honor; it was pride and vengeance in Neds case. I mean he even said, some lies aren't without honor. But the Lannister came into his house and crippled his son, there was no way he could bend the knee to them after that. 



Coteaz said:


> The Lannisters aren't the good guys, and neither are the Starks, or Tullys, or Baratheons, or Martells or what have you. They're all just players trying to win the game. Some are more successful than others.



This is where your wrong though. The Starks never played the GoT if that's the case Ned could have taken it after the War of the Usurper. All they ever wanted was to rule the North and prepare for Winter.


----------



## abcd (Jun 9, 2011)

Borel said:


> Well... I know I don't.





> I have recently started rereading the series, and I realised that there are a couple of jewels about the Others that I had forgotten about in the prologue of aGoT. Checking the Others page, I see that it is not reflected there either, and I believe it will be important down the line:
> 
> The Others have their own language
> The Others have a sense of humour (cruel, of course, but these are fighters - no worse than half a dozen humans in the same situation in the books)
> ...


----------



## Felix (Jun 9, 2011)

As anyone managed to get a hold of the Hedge Knight Graphic novels?
I'm so interested in reading them since the art is good and the writing is great and it's more backstory to a kingdom we all love

But it's like insanely priced everywhere and or out of stock


----------



## masamune1 (Jun 9, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Define "bad."
> Cersei is a scheming cunt, but she's doing it for her children and to challenge the patriarchal society. Tywin was a cold bastard, but he was like that to preserve his family's power and rectify his father's mistakes. Jaime can be hotheaded and rash but is ultimately a decent man at heart. Kevan, Lancel, Daven, Genna, etc were shown in Feast to be relatively normal individuals who make mistakes like everyone else.
> 
> The Lannisters aren't cackling fiends.
> ...



Yeah.....Don't think so.

The Lannisters may not be cackling fiends (well, I'm sure Cersei has done that once or twice, usually when stuff is going to hell all around her) but the fact is Jaime dropped a small boy out of a window to cover up his i*c*st; Cersei has several children murdered just to cover up said i*c*st; their son is sadistic psychopath who likes to shoot arrows into his own people for _sport._ I'm not seeing anyone in the Stark clan who is remotely as bad as that.

I've read stories before where the bad guy was the main POV character; I have never thought that that suddenly made them the good guy. Cersei is doing this for herself to live her dreams through her children but even if she wasn't, that would hardly excuse all of her behaviour, especially since a lot of it (like, say, her treatment of Sansa) is pretty blatant cruelty that does her children no favours whatever. 

Tywin being driven by a desire to preserve his family's power isn't really a good excuse, at all. And he goes beyond that because he seems to live by the motto that it isn't enough to succeed; others must fail- and die, and be tortured, and have all their land and property pillaged. And there is the way he treated his kids, especially Tyrion. Tywin Lannister is a bad man.



> Don't go off on the whole Gregor Clegane thing, either. All sides in the Westerosi civil war pillaged, raped, and murdered their way through enemy territory. Hell, Robb's forces sacked half of the Westerlands as vengeance for the Riverlands.



If memory serves, that was Roose Bolton acting on his own without authority. which only ties in with what I said that there are bad guys on the Stark side, but they are the good guys overall. And Gregor is significantly worse than pretty much anyone else on the board- Tywin knows this, but he simply calculates how much damage Gregor can do for his own advantage that Westeros will tolerate. Robb was incompetent in that regard- he didn't know what Bolton was up to, or he wasn't in a position to do much about it. Tywin knows full well what Gregor is and always does, and it doesn't bother him one whit.


----------



## Borel (Jun 9, 2011)

Whether Others would be suitable candidates for PoV characters isn't really the issue, it's just that when the quote you provided is put into its context:





> And there are some new viewpoint characters. Some of them are new CHARACTERS, introduced for the first time in this book. Others are established characters, but new VIEWPOINTS; they have been around, but you've never gone inside their heads before. Once, a few... etc.


I don't really think that's being hinted at. Others as PoV characters isn't really something that you start randomly talking about in the middle of a paragraph, it deserves its own paragraph, so to speak.

He just means that some of the PoV characters in the next book have been around, but not as PoV characters.


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 9, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Tywin being driven by a desire to preserve his family's power isn't really a good excuse, at all. And he goes beyond that because he seems to live by the motto that it isn't enough to succeed; others must fail- and die, and be tortured, and have all their land and property pillaged. And there is the way he treated his kids, especially Tyrion. Tywin Lannister is a bad man.


Tywin was no worse than any medieval leader in (real) history. Hard and ruthless, but effective. 




> If memory serves, that was Roose Bolton acting on his own without authority. which only ties in with what I said that there are bad guys on the Stark side, but they are the good guys overall. And Gregor is significantly worse than pretty much anyone else on the board- Tywin knows this, but he simply calculates how much damage Gregor can do for his own advantage that Westeros will tolerate. Robb was incompetent in that regard- he didn't know what Bolton was up to, or he wasn't in a position to do much about it. Tywin knows full well what Gregor is and always does, and it doesn't bother him one whit.


Nope, the Westerlands were ravaged by the forces under Robb's personal command. Roose Bolton never left the Riverlands, as he was commanding the North's foot in the east.

Tywin saw Gregor Clegane as a useful tool of war and used him accordingly. Not nice, but effective.


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## Banhammer (Jun 9, 2011)

Tywin was motivated by being Lord fucking Tywin. 
Catelyn started shenanigans, Tywin wipped his lannister mane, Robb wipped his young wolf out of his trousers as well, war ensued and in the midst of it, the lannisters reacted to the starks(who thought that they were reacting to the lannisters killing Jon Arryn and Bran Stark) by seizing the crown and everything snowballed from there


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## Cyphon (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't feel like massive quoting but Coteaz you have a pretty skiewed view of reality if you really think the Lannisters aren't the bad guys. The Starks aren't perfect (as nobody is) but they are far more closely related to what good guys should be then the Starks.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 9, 2011)

The Starks are good because they are "too honest to live, too noble to shit", but the Lannisters as a whole can't be considered the bad guys just because of Cersei and Tywin. Cersei is a blood-matted cunt, but Tyrion and Jaime are pretty legit. As things stand they are the only Lannisters who will survive (aside from Kevin, but he is vanilla). And Ned Stark isn't "bad" just because is actions have unforeseen consequences. I hate the guy and pretty much every Stark other than Arya, but he didn't sit in a corner and think how he could screw over Westeros. But then again his actions before (and during with Theon) the books begin are pretty much douchbaggery. I think the point GRRM was trying to make was that good/bad as absolutes are rather simplistic and best left to authors like Tolkein, Jordan and Goodkind where evil wears a badge and rape children for shits and giggles.

Why are you even arguing this? Davos pretty much explains in _A Clash of Kings_ that people are just shades of grey. There are no villains aside from the Others and those serving them.


----------



## abcd (Jun 9, 2011)

Borel said:


> Whether Others would be suitable candidates for PoV characters isn't really the issue, it's just that when the quote you provided is put into its context:I don't really think that's being hinted at. Others as PoV characters isn't really something that you start randomly talking about in the middle of a paragraph, it deserves its own paragraph, so to speak.
> 
> He just means that some of the PoV characters in the next book have been around, but not as PoV characters.



With an author who normally plays with words?

I will give u one more instance where he has done asimilarplay of words(April fools update)


> The five parts of DANCE will each be released with a subtitle, as follows:
> A DANCE WITH DRAGONS: DAENERYS
> A DANCE WITH DRAGONS: JON SNOW
> A DANCE WITH DRAGONS: TYRION
> ...


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 9, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Why are you even arguing this? Davos pretty much explains in _A Clash of Kings_ that people are just shades of grey. There are no villains aside from the Others and those serving them.


 
I actually agree with the general concept of no *true *good or bad. I merely jumped in because it is ridiculous to try and compare the Lannisters to the Starks in regards to who is closer to good. 

You have i*c*st, children killing, raping etc...Vs.....Well, nothing really.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 9, 2011)

abcd said:


> With an author who normally plays with words?
> 
> I will give u one more instance where he has done asimilarplay of words(April fools update)



You're looking into it too much. Besides, he shouldn't be adding more POV's but getting rid of some of them.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah but a few members of the family =/= everyone. i*c*st isn't really evil, just frowned upon. "That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like Gods and Targaryens". I love that quote.


----------



## abcd (Jun 9, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I actually agree with the general concept of no *true *good or bad. I merely jumped in because it is ridiculous to try and compare the Lannisters to the Starks in regards to who is closer to good.
> 
> You have i*c*st, children killing, raping etc...Vs.....Well, nothing really.







The Imp said:


> You're looking into it too much. Besides, he shouldn't be adding more POV's but getting rid of some of them.



I might be looking too much into it , but a man can dream


Also I came across another interesting point in GOT pg 277

Renly says Margery Tyrell looks a lot like Lyanna ... Has this point been brought up in any discussion before?


----------



## Borel (Jun 10, 2011)

abcd said:


> I might be looking too much into it , but a man can dream


It would be very cool if that happened, true enough. 



> Also I came across another interesting point in GOT pg 277
> 
> Renly says Margery Tyrell looks a lot like Lyanna ... Has this point been brought up in any discussion before?


That's weird. I really can't think of any connection the two might have...


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## The Bloody Nine (Jun 10, 2011)

Felix said:


> As anyone managed to get a hold of the Hedge Knight Graphic novels?
> I'm so interested in reading them since the art is good and the writing is great and it's more backstory to a kingdom we all love
> 
> But it's like insanely priced everywhere and or out of stock



Sorry i ignored you man. I got carried away. 

I uploaded it here; aerosmith-dreamon.mp3

I read it with CDDisplay.


I could never get my hands on a hard copy either.


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## abcd (Jun 10, 2011)

Borel said:


> That's weird. I really can't think of any connection the two might have...



Well Ned thinks its queer that Renly is attracted to someone who looks like lyanna , We know that Renly was more attracted towards her brother  ...but still married her , Queen of thorns is playing her game well?


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## Felix (Jun 10, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Sorry i ignored you man. I got carried away.
> 
> I uploaded it here; aerosmith-dreamon.mp3
> 
> ...



The link is temporarily unavailable but it's temporarily I think
Thank you!


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## Felix (Jun 10, 2011)

I'm reading it right now
It's good stuff

Feels so good watching the kingdom when it was all peaceful and full of Targaryens everywhere


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## abcd (Jun 10, 2011)

Felix said:


> I'm reading it right now
> It's good stuff
> 
> Feels so good watching the kingdom when it was all peaceful and full of Targaryens everywhere



It has been temporarily unavailable for me for a long time


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## Felix (Jun 10, 2011)

abcd said:


> It has been temporarily unavailable for me for a long time



I downloaded from the link 2 hours ago


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## abcd (Jun 10, 2011)

Felix said:


> I downloaded from the link 2 hours ago



I have got it now


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## Felix (Jun 10, 2011)

Duncan The Tall is like Ned Stark
In Gregor Clegane's body

Egg is pretty badass and smart for a kid. Loving these stories
The Tournament in the Hedge Knight with the Robert Baratheon's Ancestor being all badass with that helm


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## Nicodemus (Jun 10, 2011)

So this has probably already been asked, but which POV are you guys most excited for when A Dance With Dragons comes out?

I've personally missed Bran


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## Borel (Jun 10, 2011)

Jon, Arya and Tyrion mainly. Out of those... Jon.


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## Cyphon (Jun 10, 2011)

Felix said:


> Duncan The Tall is like Ned Stark
> In Gregor Clegane's body
> 
> Egg is pretty badass and smart for a kid. Loving these stories
> The Tournament in the Hedge Knight with the Robert Baratheon's Ancestor being all badass with that helm



What is this you are speaking of?


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 10, 2011)

I just downloaded the _Dunk and Egg_ collection, but before I read it, I have a question: is it better to read them as proper (written) novels than as graphic novels? I would much prefer to do so, as I feel I can better envision the story in such a form, plus, there usually is far more detail in a normal written novel than in a graphic one.


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## Banhammer (Jun 10, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Why are you even arguing this? Davos pretty much explains in _A Clash of Kings_ that people are just shades of grey. There are no villains aside from the Others and those serving them.



Mountain Janos Slynt Osney Kettleback and Vargo Hoat.  :33

Hell, Arya has a whole list of people who are really bad guys
Save for the Hound of course


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## Serp (Jun 10, 2011)

>Qyburn not a villain


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## Felix (Jun 10, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I just downloaded the _Dunk and Egg_ collection, but before I read it, I have a question: is it better to read them as proper (written) novels than as graphic novels? I would much prefer to do so, as I feel I can better envision the story in such a form, plus, there usually is far more detail in a normal written novel than in a graphic one.



From what I've seen there is no information or detail lost at all. The Novels are pretty short and were done to be in Short stories compilations with other authors.

It seems nothing was lost in the translation. Read the graphic novels


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## The Imp (Jun 10, 2011)

abcd said:


> Well Ned thinks its queer that Renly is attracted to someone who looks like lyanna , We know that Renly was more attracted towards her brother  ...but still married her , Queen of thorns is playing her game well?



Trying to get Robert to ditch Cersei for her? Place the Tyrells in a higher seat of power? At the least we get a sense that Renly and Loras are scheming to gain more power early in the book.


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## abcd (Jun 10, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> What is this you are speaking of?



Graphic novels or novellas based on ASOIAF


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## Cyphon (Jun 10, 2011)

So these are cannon?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 10, 2011)

Seeing as how they are written by GRRM and both series, I believe, have references to each other, I'd say yes.


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## Mori` (Jun 10, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> So these are cannon?



You really need to ask that..?


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 10, 2011)

I didn't actually click the link and read up on it.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jun 10, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I just downloaded the _Dunk and Egg_ collection, but before I read it, I have a question: is it better to read them as proper (written) novels than as graphic novels? I would much prefer to do so, as I feel I can better envision the story in such a form, plus, there usually is far more detail in a normal written novel than in a graphic one.



As always the books are better, but in this case the comic was really well done so it won't spoil anything. 


And yes i don't what you say Gregor (and the people he rolls with) are as evil as it is humanely possible to get. Tywin, at least after his wife died, is a close second.


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## Felix (Jun 10, 2011)

If you have read A Feast for Crows, you should remember Maester Aemon mentioning Egg when he was delirious 

Or Barristan mentioning Duncan the Tall as the Kingsguard Captain before him.

Or Brienne having Duncan's shield (or a look alike) in her armory back in Tarth


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 10, 2011)

There was some cool little tidbits in the Barristan entry of the Whitebook in aSoS too - like how he unhorsed the Lord Commander Dunk as well as Egg's son, in the same tourney. 

I loved reading the Hedge Knight for the first time - sure it was far more black and white than the books, with a clearly defined good guy and asshole bad guy, but that was just part of the charm - a charm that was incredibly inviting in light of how brutal the actual series was. It's light and fun, but still with some gravity at the end.


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## Felix (Jun 10, 2011)

It's a very feel good, and gives you the vibe that back when the Targaryens ruled that those were the good times

Like Robert says


----------



## The Imp (Jun 10, 2011)




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## Nae'blis (Jun 10, 2011)

Wasn't the Blackfyre Rebellion covered in one of those books? I read it once ages ago. It was nice getting the details of the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and the consequences of the Targaryen king (Aegon?) legitimising his bastards.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 11, 2011)

^Yup - in the Sworn Sword, Dunk is in the service of one of the veterans of the Blackfyre Rebellion - that war taking place many years prior. Loved some of the names of the guys mentioned - Bittersteel, Fireball, _Quickfinger_. 

I hope that if HBO does catch up with George before he finishes, that they'd devote a season to these books - kinda like how Starz did a prequel to Spartacus while hoping Andy Whitfield (the lead of that show) would recover from his illness. 

Or even better, that they'd cover the books after them and George are done with the main series in a timely manner.  

The Trial of Seven would be glorious.


----------



## Borel (Jun 11, 2011)

The Imp said:


>


Haha, I lol'd and got weird looks.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 11, 2011)

The Imp said:


>





That's great.


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 11, 2011)

Hey I want to write and send a letter to george martin. Does anyone know his fan mail address or something?

House of Dayne is my favorite, the dark sword and all those bosses yeargh!


----------



## Serp (Jun 11, 2011)

Dark sword, I thought the sword of house Dayne was milky white  Ill have to look it up again.

And I've opened a proper Asoiaf RP, link in my sig check it out please.


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## abcd (Jun 11, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> Hey I want to write and send a letter to george martin. Does anyone know his fan mail address or something?
> 
> House of Dayne is my favorite, the dark sword and all those bosses yeargh!



I think its easier to communicate with him on his blog, He often responds to interesting questions.


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 11, 2011)

abcd said:


> I think its easier to communicate with him on his blog, He often responds to interesting questions.



would you kindly provide me with a link please?

Btw serperion, who are those in your sig? And yeah the darksword and house dyne rock n roll! They are like anti-hero bretonnian bosses.


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## Nayrael (Jun 11, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> would you kindly provide me with a link please?







Suigetsu said:


> Btw serperion, who are those in your sig?



I think those are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.


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## Serp (Jun 11, 2011)

I am very confused, house Dayne or Dyne?

 See the sword is white not black :/
And yes it is Rhaegar and Lyanna in my avy.


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 11, 2011)

The Dark Sword is a person, isn't it? Or is that Dark Star?



Suigetsu said:


> Hey I want to write and send a letter to george martin. Does anyone know his fan mail address or something?


He responds to emails... eventually. grrm@georgerrmartin.com

Though, in my case, he replied by trying to hawk his shit to me.


----------



## Serp (Jun 11, 2011)

Darkstar is a Dayne yes, but I am very confused myself as the Sword of House Dayne is very popular also.


----------



## Butō Rengoob (Jun 11, 2011)

The Imp said:


>


Oh shit 

Finished AGoT just last week and i'm about halfway through ACoK. I love this series, can't believe i missed out for so long.


----------



## martryn (Jun 12, 2011)

> On that subject, I felt that the scenes where Daenerys and Cersei make love with their female attendants were fanservice by Martin for the audience; does anyone else here believe that?



Yep.  I also got that impression.  I thought it was rather unnecessary to include those scenes in the book.  Meh.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jun 12, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That is definitely a very hilarious image, Imp, so I shall definitely give you +rep for it.
> 
> However, I see that the humor of that image was derived from the apparent fact that sexual activity with Brienne would not be enjoyable; if I were to be a person living in the world of this series, I actually would prefer Brienne over a woman such as Cersei or Melisandre. While Brienne may not be as "radiantly" beautiful as they are, she also is no Lena the Hyena, judging from how Martin described her; with he great strength, she could likely give any partner of hers incredible pleasure; and, most importantly, she is more likely to be sincere in such intimate acts, unlike Cersei or Melisandre, who would likely use sexuality as a means to manipulate other people and achieve their goals.
> 
> On that subject, I felt that the scenes where Daenerys and Cersei make love with their female attendants were fanservice by Martin for the audience; does anyone else here believe that?



Just saw an artist impression of Mel actually; 

Here

....yeah, you can have your Brienne. 


I've been looking for a picture which has all the great ladies of westeros on like tourney stand but i cant find it. Help ?


----------



## The Imp (Jun 12, 2011)

This is one of my favourite Mel fanarts. I haven't seen any that had all of the female characters together though.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 12, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Just saw an artist impression of Mel actually;
> 
> Here
> 
> ....yeah, you can have your Brienne.



What is wrong with me expressing my opinion? There are certain users here who seem to have a problem with me expressing my opinion, and even _give me -rep for it!_ Can you believe that? I have every right to express my opinion in these forums, and I do not force other people to share it, so why must other users here attempt to infringe upon my right to do so?

As for the subject of this covnersation, I explained why I would prefer Brienne over Melisandre, so will you please at least acknowledge that my reasons for doing so are valid? I will not criticize anyone here who would prefer Melisandre, because they have every right to do so, so I hope that everyone else here will give me the same respect.

Often, especially at times such as this, I sympathize with Ned or Davos, as I often see other people being irrational or extreme, and I attempt to be the voice of reason and convince everyone to be calm and carefully deliberate the situation, yet few people ever listen. Do any other users here see similarities between themselves and a character from this series, and if so, which character, and why?


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jun 12, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> What is wrong with me expressing my opinion? There are certain users here who seem to have a problem with me expressing my opinion, and even _give me -rep for it!_ Can you believe that? I have every right to express my opinion in these forums, and I do not force other people to share it, so why must other users here attempt to infringe upon my right to do so?



If this post really was directed at me then i'm at a complete loss why, i wasn't at all suggesting your opinion was invalid, merely stating that i prefer Mel to Brienne based on that picture. 

This artist is really good at doing supernaturally beautiful women though. His Sansa and Dany are breathtaking.



*Spoiler*: __ 












Gallery here

And my hunt for the combined ladies of westeros picture goes on.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 12, 2011)

Do you mean this one?



Split up:

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 12, 2011)

Just finished _Swords_.

For me it is definitely a tough call between that one and _Thrones_ for my favorite. 

Both were very good.


----------



## Felix (Jun 12, 2011)

It's amazing how everyone depicts the Dornish women the same way
...

I fucking like it


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 12, 2011)

Dornish Women: sexy AND badass
Whats there not to like? XD


----------



## The Imp (Jun 12, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _prepare yourself for jon motherfucking snow_


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 12, 2011)

The Imp said:


>



It could happen, Snow got history fucking non-beautiful girl


----------



## Spartacus (Jun 12, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> What is wrong with me expressing my opinion? There are certain users here who seem to have a problem with me expressing my opinion, and even _give me -rep for it!_ Can you believe that? I have every right to express my opinion in these forums, and I do not force other people to share it, so why must other users here attempt to infringe upon my right to do so?
> 
> As for the subject of this covnersation, I explained why I would prefer Brienne over Melisandre, so will you please at least acknowledge that my reasons for doing so are valid? I will not criticize anyone here who would prefer Melisandre, because they have every right to do so, so I hope that everyone else here will give me the same respect.
> 
> Often, especially at times such as this, I sympathize with Ned or Davos, as I often see other people being irrational or extreme, and I attempt to be the voice of reason and convince everyone to be calm and carefully deliberate the situation, yet few people ever listen. Do any other users here see similarities between themselves and a character from this series, and if so, which character, and why?



*sigh* You need to get some smarts about you. You're like super serious all the time and have a holier-than-thou attitude that makes it seems like you have a shaft so far up your ass we can see the end protruding at the mouth.

Innuendos, snide comments, sarcasm, people joking and this generally being the internet, a lot of stuff seems to fly over your head and you interpret most comments in a totally different picture than they were intended.

Everything is black and white for you, no moral grey zones, and you apply all your own exaggerated values on everything.

You seem to have no understanding of many of the motivations that drive characters in the books, and if something displeases you, you seem as if you want George R.R Martin to change his books to reflect your view on how the narrative should be, which would change the books into something very clich?d.

What I'm basically trying to say, is you seem to have a very naive and blue-eyed outlook on the world and on how people should behave, imagined or real.

While I personally don't mind any of that, as I always find your outlook on stuff entertaining to read, I can see why some people might get irritated, seeing as how the world is, and people generally have a mix of both darker and lighter motivations at their core.

But, enough ranting by me. Don't know if this helps you in any way, just pointing stuff out I've noticed, personally.

Regards


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 12, 2011)

it's only 1's and 0's


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 12, 2011)

"Does my way of speaking seem mechanical to you?" v2.0 in order?


----------



## Felix (Jun 13, 2011)

Hangat?r said:


> "Does my way of speaking seem mechanical to you?" v2.0 in order?



Oh my god I laughed so much
Who was the other user which sounded like a fucking automaton?


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 13, 2011)

No idea, do you remember who else was able to read my binary post?

Only thing I really remember is that I got a lot of rep messages for posts that no longer exist. xd


----------



## Spartacus (Jun 13, 2011)

Hey, DemonDragonJ.

I didn't mean to try and disassemble your character, it just turned into a rant on all the things I could recall on the spot. it just turns out, that whenever someone yells their questions into the woods, I'm usually the retard that yells back, sort of.

What can I say? I usually notice you posting wherever on these forums, because your style and perspective on, well...everything, is quite different than what one usually comes across.

To try and address your post.



> First, I have never claimed to be better than the other users of this forum, and I certainly do not act as if I believed myself to be.



I wasn't speaking in reference of how you act towards other users, more towards how you expect characters to behave, and the extreme displeasure you show when certain characters don't act how you want them to. Sometimes people have differing motivations than what they necessarily perceive as "good". Humans have baser instincts that needs to be satisfied for us to function.
And while we're talking characters in a book, the best writers are able to write them to come of as actual living persons, which GRRM does rather well.

Why did Jaime throw Bran out the window? Well, to start with, we perceive him as an evil person, but after a couple of books when we get his view on things, he moves into the grey area. As you will find, most people reside in this area.



> Second, what evidence have I displayed of having a "black-and-white attitude" in life? And you are not the first person to accuse me of having such a belief; both of my parents and my brother have expressed such an opinion of me, as well.



Well, if you don't notice it yourself, you very much come of as a person who splits things up categorically into stark black and white perspectives. It permeates pretty much all of your posts. If you perceive someone as bad, you express huge displeasure about the person, without trying to understand what  drives a person to such things.
If people around you have noticed this about you as well, maybe you should take it into consideration. It's like the girl who only experiences bad relationships and doesn't know why. The common denominator is her, so it might just be, that she is the issue why the relationships break.



> Third, what evidence have I displayed of "not understanding the motivations of the characters, etc?" (too much text to quote in its entirety)



Read above statements.



> Fourth, what evidence have I displayed of being "naive?" And why do you use the term "blue-eyed?" I do have blue eyes in actuality, but I fail to see why that term is related to being "naive."



You come of as the sort of person who would do more bad than good, even though you tried to do good. Can't really put a finger on this, just my perception of you, while reading your posts.

Again, don't let this discourage you from posting or anything. I don't want this to be taken as insult, just honest replies to questions you insist getting answers on, and this is just my take on trying to explain why you rub people the wrong way sometimes.

Ask and ye shall get answer.

I could try going into a much deeper analysis of what exactly it is that makes people ridicule you. But lets face it, it would probably get nasty, and it would take too much effort on my part, effort I'm not prepared to invest.

Regards


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 13, 2011)

Spartacus, again I thank you for your insight, and I am glad to hear such well-deliberated posts here. I would like to continue this conversation, but it would be best to so on our user profiles, so that we do not disrupt the discussion of _A Song of Ice and Fire._


----------



## Felix (Jun 13, 2011)

Jesus it really feels like a robot


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 13, 2011)

Felix said:


> Jesus it really feels like a robot



Will you stop that, please? One user accusing me of being a robot is already very harsh, but a second user doing so is nearly intolerable.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 13, 2011)

Can you move thats discussion to PM or something please? I don't think people visit this tread to see you guys bickering for so long.


----------



## Spartacus (Jun 13, 2011)

Yeah mate, sorry 'bout that.

I don't usually posts on these forums, more of a lurker, but sometimes I can't resist the temptation to air my thoughts. I thought I heard a desperate plea for help.

Anyways, let discussion of these lo-ve-ly books recommence.

When is A Dance with Dragons set to be released again?


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 13, 2011)

> When is A Dance with Dragons set to be released again?



July 12 in UK and US (in other countries the date can be different)


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 13, 2011)

Spartacus said:


> When is A Dance with Dragons set to be released again?



July 12, which is shortly before my birthday, which shall make it an excellent birthday gift for me.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 13, 2011)

So I have Hedge Knight and Sworn Sword. Are those the only 2 goodies outside of the books that exist?


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 13, 2011)

In Dunk&Egg Saga, there is 3rd Part "Mystery Knight" but I don't know if that one has a Comic Edition yet.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jun 14, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Do you mean this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes! Thank you very much. Did you have it saved or are the missing Amoka's stilling floating around on the internet somewhere ?



Nayrael said:


> In Dunk&Egg Saga, there is 3rd Part "Mystery Knight" but I don't know if that one has a Comic Edition yet.



It doesn't, and i remember hearing that due to some rights issues it might be a very long while until it comes to comics as well. 

But the anthology it comes in - Warriors - is actually pretty good. 

All in all i'd have it as;

Hedge Knight
Sworn Sword
Mystery Knight

In order of awesomeness. Mystery Knight is still extremely good ofcourse its just that it doesn't feel as romantic as the others.




The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _prepare yourself for jon motherfucking snow_



Meh. His face isn't long enough or solemn enough (or emo enough), but the art is amazing. I think Jon Snow is  one of the ones Amoka nailed absolutely perfectly.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 14, 2011)

> Yes! Thank you very much. Did you have it saved or are the missing Amoka's stilling floating around on the internet somewhere ?



I had it saved tough I also have the link to Amok's site: 
Nothing new has been added for years (which is a shame: I love his art) but all old pics should be there.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 14, 2011)

> I have seen those images, and in my mind they perfectly capture the essence of the characters as Martin described them; they are masterpieces, in my opinion.



Amok made them while constantly being in contact with GRRM. You can still find on net old portraits that were scrapped because they weren't looking exactly like GRRM imagined it.

I have watched the series, but when I imagine a character, I see Amok's portraits instead of the actors ^_^; I think that speaks how good they are.


----------



## Felix (Jun 14, 2011)

Notice how the Hedge Knight portraits are exactly like the designs from the Graphic Novels, despite him not being the artist


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 14, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> I have watched the series, but when I imagine a character, I see Amok's portraits instead of the actors ^_^; I think that speaks how good they are.



Yes, those are my thoughts, precisely.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 14, 2011)

I am probably looking like an idiot right now as I don't follow many links and only catch some of the discussion but what exactly are these comics? Were they actually released as legit books and then turned into graphic novels or whatever? 

Whatever the case, can these books/comics/novels be found to buy?


----------



## martryn (Jun 14, 2011)

The latest episode of Game of Thrones left out one of my favorite scenes from the first book: the one where Ned thinks back about facing those three Kingsguard, five on three, and the awesome verbal exchange between them.  I think it was a fever dream or something, but it was seriously my favorite bit of the first book.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 14, 2011)

martryn said:


> The latest episode of Game of Thrones left out one of my favorite scenes from the first book: the one where Ned thinks back about facing those three Kingsguard, five on three, and the awesome verbal exchange between them.  I think it was a fever dream or something, but it was seriously my favorite bit of the first book.



I haven't been watching the show but that is irrelevant to how much I loved that scene. The show has done well but is seriously screwing some things up if they left this out. 

Also, I believe it was 7 on 3 (I could be wrong). Don't underestimate the Sword of the Morning


----------



## abcd (Jun 14, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I am probably looking like an idiot right now as I don't follow many links and only catch some of the discussion but what exactly are these comics? Were they actually released as legit books and then turned into graphic novels or whatever?
> 
> Whatever the case, can these books/comics/novels be found to buy?


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 14, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I haven't been watching the show but that is irrelevant to how much I loved that scene. The show has done well but is seriously screwing some things up if they left this out.
> 
> Also, I believe it was 7 on 3 (I could be wrong). Don't underestimate the Sword of the Morning


If you mean the Tower of Joy, I believe there were only three of the kings guard  there. And Stark didn't fight them by himself, there were more of Stark's party then there were King's Guard. I think Stark brought six or seven other people with him.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 14, 2011)

abcd said:


>



Thanks and reps.



Nae'blis said:


> If you mean the Tower of Joy, I believe there were only three of the kings guard  there. And Stark didn't fight them by himself, there were more of Stark's party then there were King's Guard. I think Stark brought six or seven other people with him.



So yeah, 7 on 3. Such a great scene. Ned barely even survived with those odds and IIRC there was one other survivor on his side. 

Double R should flesh that scene out in a blog or something.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 14, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> So yeah, 7 on 3. Such a great scene. Ned barely even survived with those odds and IIRC there was one other survivor on his side.


Howland Reed. His children went off with Bran.

If we ever get more information about that battle and the events afterward, it'll be from him. Unless a ghost whisperer is found.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 14, 2011)

Here's the passage - stolen from the GOT tv thread. 


> They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
> 
> ?I looked for you on the Trident,? Ned said to them.
> 
> ...



Question - where is Stannis's daughter? I was wondering since Jon sent Aemon and baby Mance away, she may be the only "cow" Stannis has left in line for Mel's BBQ. With her supposed king's blood and all. 
It'd be fucked up if he went that far.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 14, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Question - where is Stannis's daughter? I was wondering since Jon sent Aemon and baby Mance away, she may be the only "cow" Stannis has left in line for Mel's BBQ. With her supposed king's blood and all.
> It'd be fucked up if he went that far.


According to , Shireen is in Eastwatch-by-the-sea, one of the Wall's fortresses, with her mother, so she is well within reach of Stannis and Melisandre.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 14, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> Howland Reed. His children went off with Bran.
> 
> If we ever get more information about that battle and the events afterward, it'll be from him. Unless a ghost whisperer is found.



So it was Reed, and he is still alive? I couldn't remember if he was part of Ned's group in KL. 

It would be nice to get that scene fleshed out. I can imagine either Reed saving Ned or Ned saving Reed vs Dayne at the end of the battle. Dayne already having been more or less fatally wounded yet still having them shitting out of fear.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 14, 2011)

^ I doubt the scene will be fleshed out any time. Firstly because Reed is the only survivor and he doesn't have a POV chapter, and I doubt GRRM wants to be too obvious about what happened (read: Jon's parents) before the end. As


			
				Cyphon;38924219So yeah said:
			
		

> Well the Kings Guard are supposed to be the best swordsmen and knights in the kingdom. Reed  survived, but I don't think Stark mentioned who else was with him the his sisters room.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 14, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> ^ I doubt the scene will be fleshed out any time. Firstly because Reed is the only survivor and he doesn't have a POV chapter, and I doubt GRRM wants to be too obvious about what happened (read: Jon's parents) before the end. As
> 
> Well the Kings Guard are supposed to be the best swordsmen and knights in the kingdom. Reed  survived, but I don't think Stark mentioned who else was with him the his sisters room.



Maybe Bran could get one of his old Nan tales from Reed 

I know the KG are supposed to be the best which is part of what is great about that scene. It really showed what they are meant to be. They were standing there all bad ass and calm and the one was sharpening his blade casually. 

Dayne was hyped even more by Jaime though. Didn't he say something like Dayne could beat all 5 of his current brothers with his off hand while pissing?


----------



## Felix (Jun 15, 2011)

From what I remember Dayne only died and Ned survived because Reed used some Warg stuff to help Ned


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 15, 2011)

Felix said:


> From what I remember Dayne only died and Ned survived because Reed used some Warg stuff to help Ned


No, you are remembering speculation and fan theory.


----------



## Felix (Jun 15, 2011)

> While the circumstances are not entirely known, Howland apparently saved Eddard's life during his fight with Arthur Dayne. (ACOK 22)



Yeah you are right, we don't know how he did it


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 15, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Darkstar is a Dayne yes, but I am very confused myself as the Sword of House Dayne is very popular also.



Ouuu so Darkstar is just the knight wielding it ehh? I like to think the people of Dayne are like bretonians/space marines in medieval times.

Also I tought that Lyliana had dark hair, hmmm... I feel quite bad for sansa.


----------



## martryn (Jun 16, 2011)

Regardless, I'm hoping the HBO series does a flashback to that missing scene.  It's not tied by the rules of the books and POVs and that shit, and since it's a flashback, it could be a flashback that is strategically introduced at the time of the introduction of those two siblings that hang out with Bran.


----------



## abcd (Jun 16, 2011)

ADWD spoilers(Bran)
*Spoiler*: __ 




Cold hands considered Nights watch as enemies. ...It also looks like he is working under the Children of the forest ...

From book 4 we know that the citadel is trying to kill all the magic in the world (Sam meets sarella (alleras)) , Is nights watch involved in this?


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 16, 2011)

Almost clicked on that. phew. 

I think we have one more shot at a Tower of Joy flashback in the current season in the show. In the episode blurbs for the last episode, I read that Sean Bean will be showing up in Bran's dream after Ned's death - so maybe, instead of following what happened in the book, they have Bran follow Ned to the Tower of Joy, facing off with the Trio.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 16, 2011)

Visited the Westeros forum after many years and... I wonder what the hell was I smoking when I made this tread?!


----------



## abcd (Jun 16, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Visited the Westeros forum after many years and... I wonder what the hell was I smoking when I made this tread?!



That was the most hilarious thread i have read in a long time


----------



## Felix (Jun 16, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Almost clicked on that. phew.
> 
> I think we have one more shot at a Tower of Joy flashback in the current season in the show. In the episode blurbs for the last episode, I read that Sean Bean will be showing up in Bran's dream after Ned's death - so maybe, instead of following what happened in the book, they have Bran follow Ned to the Tower of Joy, facing off with the Trio.



That's... messed up


----------



## abcd (Jun 16, 2011)

Seriously ? no one here has read any spoiler chapters ?


----------



## Nightfall (Jun 16, 2011)

I read two, but maybe it wasn't that smart if he's edited them a bit over the years.


----------



## Dionysus (Jun 16, 2011)

I've read all the sample chapters (I wouldn't call them spoilers it's like reading the beginning of the novel) and also a lot of the spoilers given from people who have attended readings from ADWD. It's been so damn long that I might as well just say that I haven't. Can't really remember much at all.



martryn said:


> Regardless, I'm hoping the HBO series does a flashback to that missing scene.  It's not tied by the rules of the books and POVs and that shit, and since it's a flashback, it could be a flashback that is strategically introduced at the time of the introduction of those two siblings that hang out with Bran.


I really don't think they're changing the story (so the fight has still happened), but GRRM and the writers are holding off a lot of the ham-handed foreshadowing in GoT. GRRM has stated (hinted?) that he'd change little things like that in the book, if he could. Hell, I think he thought he was writing a trilogy.

Same "mistake" as Robert Jordan.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 17, 2011)

I have been reading through _Feast_ and I have to say I am definitely enjoying this book as much as the others. It isn't on _Thrones_ or _Swords_ level but I would put it with or above _Kings_. I think the only parts of the book I haven't really enjoyed are the Sansa/Alayne parts.


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 17, 2011)

Cant wait to get my a Dance with dragons, will this be the last book of the series? or are there more to come?


----------



## Serp (Jun 17, 2011)

Two more, The Winds of Wind, A Dream of Spring


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 18, 2011)

Not sure how common the "theory" is but what does everyone think about the Hound still being alive at that sept? Is it a pretty agreed upon opinion or does nobody think he is still alive?

If he is alive would you like a POV from him and do you think he will be even remotely relevant again?


----------



## Coteaz (Jun 18, 2011)

I don't think the septon was lying when he said that he buried the Hound. If Sandor was alive at the sept, do you honestly think he'd let them attempt to geld Stranger?


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 18, 2011)

Sandor would be a Broken Man (which, BTW, were talked about in AFFC) so we don't know how he would react from now on.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 18, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> I don't think the septon was lying when he said that he buried the Hound. If Sandor was alive at the sept, do you honestly think he'd let them attempt to geld Stranger?


Well if we want to split hairs, the Hound is everything the Brotherhood without Banners accused him of being. Burying the Hound could be nothing more than burying the bad parts of Sandor Clegane, which is true in that regard.

I should say that I think Sandor was the guy in the monastery who was petting the dogs.


----------



## Serp (Jun 18, 2011)

I am a supporter of the theory that Sandor is the Gravedigger and the Hound is no more.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 18, 2011)

I agree with you 2 above me.

A couple hints:

1. He petted the dog. Kind of insignificant but then considering that why spell it out for the readers.....

2. The main guy's reactions being noted when Brienne mentioned the Hound.

3. At one point he changes from "dead" to "the hound is at rest" or something like that.

4. Gravedigger walking with a limp.

5. Hound's horse being there.

6. How much the guy knew about the Hound and Arya. 

Am I missing any?


----------



## siyrean (Jun 19, 2011)

7. Stranger was somehow successfully led the proper path to the monastery. 

8. the elder's story made reference to himself dying, so he doesn't necessary mean dead when he says it.

9. Sandor's too badass to let a little scratch kill him.



Sandor being alive is pretty much considered as canon as L+R=J these days


----------



## Suigetsu (Jun 19, 2011)

siyrean said:


> Sandor being alive is pretty much considered as canon as L+R=J these days



but sandor is death, he got buried :/
and that L+R+= J???


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 19, 2011)

siyrean said:


> Sandor being alive is pretty much considered as canon as L+R=J these days


So it's going to have a divided fanbase all frothing at the mouth too lol?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2011)

you know, I had lost a lot of love I had for Rob when he did what he did but then I remembered, this is the sixteen year old who lost all his brothers and sisters and father that same year.

We're cool Rob. I love you all over again


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jun 20, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> but sandor is death, he got buried :/
> and that L+R+= J???



Jon is the bastard child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen or GRRM is a massive troll.


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## The Imp (Jun 20, 2011)

2. Joffrey would lose half the kingdom. However, the North doesn't have very fertile land and some terrible winters so it may just be to maintain their pride/reputation.

3. Because King's Landing is run by Lannisters and Joffrey sitting on the throne is what gives them the control that they have. But when the Tyrells enter the political mix in KL, Joffrey's quickly killed off.


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## Nayrael (Jun 20, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:
			
		

> In the image of the women of Westeros several pages back, why was each woman, apart from Asha, holding a piece of silk cloth in her hand? Was that some cultural practice?



It is tradition for a Knight to fight for a woman's honor in a tourney as her champion. His woman gives him that silk thingie whose English word I forgot.
Thats one of ways the Knights flirt with women.



> When Robb and the northerners declared their independence from the southern lands, and demanded that they be left alone, I felt that it would have been far wiser and more practical for the southerners to have complied with these wishes, as they spent a great amount of time and resources waging the war. Why did they do that? Were Joffrey and his supporters being arrogant, wishing to "punish" the northerners for daring to oppose them?



Reason #1: Starks didn't really want peace and it is possible that even if they got one, they would wage war again in future
Reason #2: losing North strikes at your prestige and thus more vassals will want independence. In many cases you can't just let a vassal go, even if he is a burden. Prestige and respect are the most important resource for Feudal rulers whose vassals are powerful enough to disobey. Disobedient vassals must be brought down if you want your authority to be respected and prove to everyone that you are The King.



> On that subject, why did anyone obey Joffrey? He was clearly an immature and aggressive person, not suited to be a monarch, yet his followers obeyed him loyally. I was rather surprised by this, and therefore immensely enjoyed the scene where Tyrion slapped Joffrey and berated him for being impulsive and needlessly violent. I wish that more people had realized what his true nature was, and collectively renounced him; that would have been very awesome, in my mind.



Only Lannister's were really loyal to Joff... as he on teh throne makes them more powerful, no matter the personality and skill.
Later, Tyrells joined him for political reasons... and poisoned him because he was a prick.
Martells and Arryns stayed neutral and pledge their loyalty to the winner.
Starks, Tullies, Baratheons and Greyjows did not stay loyal.
Smaller houses had no choice but to obey him.


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## The Imp (Jun 20, 2011)

Because Edric Storm's mother is from a noble house and the rest of Robert's bastards are from whores and peasants.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 20, 2011)

Also wasn't that the one who's virginity he took on Stannis's wedding bed?


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## crazymtf (Jun 20, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, all of that does make sense, so I wonder if these elements will be important in the next book.
> 
> On the subject of the next book, what fates might befall Cersei and Margaery? I hope that Margaery is either killed or disgraced, and while I began to hate Cersei less, and even sympathize with her, from reading her chapters in _A Feast for Crows,_ I am not certain if I want to see her live or die.
> 
> Why did Robert acknowledge Edric Storm as an illegitimate child of his, despite not doing so for any of his other illegitimate children? Was there political pressure for him to do so, I presume?



I hope they both die to be honest. I found Cersei's chapters really interesting in Feast. Loved em cause they were fun to read through. However, do I feel pity for this bitch? Fuck no...she will die.


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## The Imp (Jun 20, 2011)

I think they'll both live. In AFFC, Littlefinger makes a reference to the War of the 3 Queens or something along those lines. 

I've always assumed it's Cersei, Margaery, and Daenerys, but the way that LF seems to be grooming Sansa makes me think she may be 1 of the 3.


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## Nayrael (Jun 20, 2011)

Cersei OR Margery. There can be only one Queen on the Iron Throne... and I can't see Cersei getting out of the prison in any plausible way... Margery can at least be saved by Tyrells and it may not be impossible to prove that she was just too much into horse riding (which I heard can destroy virginity ^_^.


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## Hansus Maximus (Jun 20, 2011)

I know it doesn't have anything to do with your series but when I read the title I couldn't help but to thing of one of my favorite peoms ever.

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,
some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fir.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice​
by Robert Frost



I am sorry if this is too much off topic but i just wanted to share this pice of poetry with you since it is a song about Ice and Fire.


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## Cyphon (Jun 20, 2011)

Cersei is going to be killed by Jaime though I am not sure it will be in the next book.

Her prophecy says her younger brother is going to kill her IIRC and Jaime was born after her. Double R keeps making us think of Tyrion as the obvious choice but I think Jaime will kill her.


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## Dionysus (Jun 20, 2011)

He might have already done so, in a murky manner befit a vague prophesy. He burned her plea for help, leaving her at the mercy of the new religious nuts with military powers.


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## crazymtf (Jun 21, 2011)

So bets on a death in this book? Who do you think will die? After such a long wait, there HAS to be a game changer.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jun 21, 2011)

Cersei gonna die. Even her own family is tired of her; especially Jaime and Kevin, which means she is pretty much a goner. 

Margery is gonna live. Otherwise the Tyrells will wipe out Kings Landing. They are far too powerful to piss off at the moment so i hope Greyjoys or somebody equally insane cuts them down to size.


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## siyrean (Jun 21, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> It is tradition for a Knight to fight for a woman's honor in a tourney as her champion. His woman gives him that silk thingie whose English word I forgot.
> Thats one of ways the Knights flirt with women.
> 
> 
> ...



word your thinking of is the woman's favour. 
also don't forget that the north was planning on taking the riverlands with them if they seceded, which are valuable agriculturally.
Marcella is also a candidate for one of the queens though not likely.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 21, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Cersei gonna die. Even her own family is tired of her; especially Jaime and Kevin, which means she is pretty much a goner.
> 
> Margery is gonna live. Otherwise the Tyrells will wipe out Kings Landing. They are far too powerful to piss off at the moment so i hope Greyjoys or somebody equally insane cuts them down to size.



I would choose Cersei over Margaery absolutely; Margaery is younger, but Cersei has endured too much hardship to have her ambitions crushed now; plus, I do not at all like the Tyrells, as they have never been portrayed in a sympathetic manner, as have been the Lannisters.

And yes, the idea of the Tyrells and the Greyjoys wiping out each other would be very awesome, as it would remove two factions that are threats to the revival of House Stark. Now, if only House Frey and another faction would eliminate each other, I would be very pleased.


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## martryn (Jun 21, 2011)

I hopped on the Ice and Fire wiki page, looked up, and two hours had passed.  I forgot how much crap is in these books.  I'm gonna have a hard time reading the fifth book without reading the other four first.  Course, probably be ok if I just kept the wiki page close at hand.


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## Mori` (Jun 21, 2011)

Re-reading Feast and struck by the numerous links between the whore known as the sailor's wife and Tysha. 

Not sure whether it's just a red herring, but it'd be interesting for Tyrion to end up meeting back up with her, if only for some resolution.


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## Cyphon (Jun 21, 2011)

About to finish _Crows _and I don't remember any of that for some reason. 

Pre-ordered my copy of _Dragons_ the other day.


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## Suigetsu (Jun 21, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Because Edric Storm's mother is from a noble house and the rest of Robert's bastards are from whores and peasants.



Edric storm, he is the one that forges things and that was very good friend with Arya right? I hope he marries a stark girl so Robert's dream becomes true. 

As for the tyrells... well they have pretty much fcked up themselves, that Tyrell girl should had married Rob, I remember when Catylin wondered if Rob's Wolf would had liked more the smell of the Tyrell girl.

Btw poor Sansa, she is sexually harassed whenever she goes


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## Nae'blis (Jun 21, 2011)

No, that's Gendry... Ser Gendry now that Dondarion knighted him lol. Edric Storm is the kid who was at Storms End when Davos sailed Melisendre close enough to birth her shadow-monster thing to kill Penrose(?).

I think the Tyrell's have set themselves up pretty well. As it stands, Margeary is still going to be queen with a more biddable Tommen as king. Especially now that Cersei is properly fucked and without the resources to rule. Littlefinger is gone, Tyrion is gone, Varys I believe is also gone, Tywin is dead... all she has left is Jaime (barely) and a bunch of people who are in Littlefinger's pocket. The charges against her aren't going to be simply forgotten, so even if she isn't killed she will be disgraced. As for the Tyrell's, only Ser Loras screwed himself over by following Cersei's advice. I believe he is grievously injured. At least that is what I remember of the fourth book though I'll admit I haven't read it in a year or so.


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## Dionysus (Jun 22, 2011)

Tyrell's would be well set up if it weren't for Dany returning. They've still thrown their lot in with the current "dynasty". I don't think they'll be trusted, especially if Dany takes the advice of the Martells.

They did alright in terms of losses though, apart from the ships. The North and the West (Tully and Lannister land) have had it the worst. The only military thorn in the Tyrell's side (until Dany and Dorne) are the Iron Islanders raiding their coast.

Hm. I except Tyrion will attempt to suss out who killed Joffrey upon his return. He knows there are some poisoners about and, if Dany takes the Iron throne, he'd suspect them at court.


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## crazymtf (Jun 22, 2011)

Pre-ordered my Kindle copy of Dragon's today, for free thanks to buying Fear 3 and getting a promotional 20 dollar code  Can't wait at 12:00 to start reading it


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## abcd (Jun 22, 2011)

I was thinking about some events in Book 1 today...

Mainly about the Death of Neds brother and his dad , Death of a king and his son -- Similar to How Dany got her dragons .... Were they sacrificed for hatching eggs ?, When Aerys Targaryen wanted to burn them all was he trying to get the eggs hatched in some way or another?

When this did not work out did they want to do something similar with Lyanna and her first son? (Assuming R+L happened , Since Lyanna would be to Rhaeger like Khal was to Dany)

This also leads me to another question... 
All the targaryens we know seem to get dreams of fire ... and visions of dragons ... Are they being controlled by Dragons? (looks like a stupid question but ...)


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 22, 2011)

what is this I don't even


----------



## abcd (Jun 22, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> what is this I don't even



 ...


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## Coteaz (Jun 22, 2011)

abcd said:


> I was thinking about some events in Book 1 today...
> 
> Mainly about the Death of Neds brother and his dad , Death of a king and his son -- Similar to How Dany got her dragons .... Were they sacrificed for hatching eggs ?, When Aerys Targaryen wanted to burn them all was he trying to get the eggs hatched in some way or another?


I don't think Aerys II even had any dragon eggs. He burned the Starks because, well, he was insane.

Also, Rickard Stark was only a lord, not a king.


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## αshɘs (Jun 22, 2011)

Finally, ACoK and ASoS arrived.

Going to start reading the former tomorrow.


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## The Imp (Jun 22, 2011)

Yeah Aerys didn't have any dragon eggs. He was just a pyromaniac. The whole Lyanna thing seems to be connected more with the PTWP prophecy rather than making dragon eggs hatch.


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 22, 2011)

Pre-ordered _Dance _about a month ago, and it's less than a month away from release. Six years is a long time.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 22, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> I don't think Aerys II even had any dragon eggs. He burned the Starks because, well, he was insane.
> 
> Also, Rickard Stark was only a lord, not a king.


I was never quite sure what makes a lord. I mean Gregor is lord of his father's estates, but he is always referred to as Ser Gregor. And Tyrion is always referred to as lord, but he has no holdings (and as he mentioned to Slynt, he is not a lord). I understand a knight is just someone who has been knighted, but srsly. I guess being a lord means that you own lands, and the head of the house they belong to.


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## uchihasurvivor (Jun 22, 2011)

I just recently finished AFFC and it was funny to read in the last chapter that GRRM said ADWD was gonna be ready next year.


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## Dash (Jun 22, 2011)

On page 500 for the first book...wow. I already heard all the praise for this series but I've been blown away. Love it.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 22, 2011)

Started up a re-read of Feast again, will finish by the time Dance comes - read Pate, the Prophet's and Hotah's chapters. Going through them, they are rich as hell, and the writing is as smooth as summer silk, but knowing where the Dorne and Iron Islands arcs eventually end . . . 

Say you were doing the HBO show, would you bother with those two arcs?


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## The Imp (Jun 22, 2011)

Yeah I'd show them, but trim them down a bit and mix AFFC with the ADWD material so it flows properly and doesn't have too many new characters.


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## abcd (Jun 23, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> I don't think Aerys II even had any dragon eggs. He burned the Starks because, well, he was insane.
> 
> Also, Rickard Stark was only a lord, not a king.






The Imp said:


> Yeah Aerys didn't have any dragon eggs. He was just a pyromaniac. The whole Lyanna thing seems to be connected more with the PTWP prophecy rather than making dragon eggs hatch.



Was it mentioned somewhere that there were no dragon eggs with Aerys? .. From Hedge knight it looked like Daenerys got the eggs from her family and not from Asshai.... (Aegon's(Egg) description of the egg was pretty similar to one of Dany's eggs)...

What is the difference between a Lord and a King? , I always thought that the starks were once kings so their blood is kings blood ...


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## Terra Branford (Jun 23, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> So bets on a death in this book? Who do you think will die? After such a long wait, there HAS to be a game changer.



Cersei, definitly. I think its her time, and the last book made it very obvious she would die, me thinks. And I have a suspicion LittleFinger will, too...and maybe Sam, something in my gut tells me. 

If Arya dies, this series will be dead to me . 
(though I won't stop reading )


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## Nayrael (Jun 23, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I was never quite sure what makes a lord. I mean Gregor is lord of his father's estates, but he is always referred to as Ser Gregor. And Tyrion is always referred to as lord, but he has no holdings (and as he mentioned to Slynt, he is not a lord). I understand a knight is just someone who has been knighted, but srsly. I guess being a lord means that you own lands, and the head of the house they belong to.



Gregor is a Knight because he is one. He has land but that just makes him a Landed Knight.
Tyrion is officially the heir of Casterly Rock (as Jaime is in Kingsguard and Cersei comes after Tyrion in the line of succession). The title is also used for members of powerful Houses without titles as you can't use Ser (for he ain't a Knight) and you can't really just say his name.


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## The Imp (Jun 23, 2011)

abcd said:


> Was it mentioned somewhere that there were no dragon eggs with Aerys? .. From Hedge knight it looked like Daenerys got the eggs from her family and not from Asshai.... (Aegon's(Egg) description of the egg was pretty similar to one of Dany's eggs)...
> 
> What is the difference between a Lord and a King? , I always thought that the starks were once kings so their blood is kings blood ...



Aegon V tries to make the eggs hatch and starts a massive fire at Summerhall. Him, his heir, Duncan the Tall and probably a lot more people are killed. Rhaegar is born on the same day. That's the tragedy of Summerhall that they reference throughout the books. 

Dany got her eggs as a gift from Illyrio.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 23, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Dany got her eggs as a gift from Illyrio.



But where did Illyrio obtain them? Actual dragon eggs would have to be very rare, so obtaining them could not have been easy, so I therefore hope that the next book shall offer an explanation of the origins of the eggs.


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## abcd (Jun 23, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Aegon V tries to make the eggs hatch and starts a massive fire at Summerhall. Him, his heir, Duncan the Tall and probably a lot more people are killed. Rhaegar is born on the same day. That's the tragedy of Summerhall that they reference throughout the books.
> 
> Dany got her eggs as a gift from Illyrio.



Well the tragedy at summer hall is only vaguely explained ( We do not know if Rhaegar was born in the summer hall or in a seperate event somewhere else etc ), And since no dragons were actually born out of that experiment the eggs might still have been fine...

 Considering Ilyrio and Varys meeting in Aryas POV he could have got the eggs from Varys ..


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## Nae'blis (Jun 23, 2011)

Not that it disproves what you're saying, but Daenerys' wedding was before the Starks arrived in Kings Landing. And Illyrio is a wealthy trader or something so it's not necessarily odd that he would have many exotic/priceless/etc items in his possession. No one expected them to hatch.


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## Suigetsu (Jun 23, 2011)

Ill be dammed, no one reads in my fcking country so odds of getting a dance with dragons on the very day of release is really against the odds. Should I pre-order it via an expensive and fast shipment service?


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## abcd (Jun 24, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Not that it disproves what you're saying, but Daenerys' wedding was before the Starks arrived in Kings Landing. And Illyrio is a wealthy trader or something so it's not necessarily odd that he would have many exotic/priceless/etc items in his possession. No one expected them to hatch.




Ya I just wanted to mention that Varys and Illyrio seem to be working together.  There would have been a white castle and no tears for summer hall if noone expected the eggs to hatch


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## siyrean (Jun 24, 2011)

just wanted to post my favorite fan vid from years ago.


*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lz3lAd2nGQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 24, 2011)

After reading the Publishers Weekly review, I'm not so positive on Dance. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



One would normally assume that "Dance with Dragons" means more of a focus on conflict. But the review says Dance "has a similar feel to Feast", and "More characters are revived than killed off and more peace accords signed than wars declared". Sounds as if we're just seeing the same events in Feast from different perspectives. Meaning by the time we see the next major Westerosi conflict in Winds, it will have been 15 years since we saw the last in Storm. Ugh.




Also, all these Greyjoy chapters but 2-3 Arya? She was somewhat of an afterthought in Feast, would be nice to see her as a major POV character again, but with 18 reported POV I'm not hopeful.


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## abcd (Jun 24, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> After reading the Publishers Weekly review, I'm not so positive on Dance.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



It is supposed to be a transition book ... I might not have a majority view but i loved feast and I am sure Dance might be similarly slow paced and awesome


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## Cyphon (Jun 24, 2011)

I liked Feast.


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## Coteaz (Jun 24, 2011)

From the previews that I've seen, Dance will still be an excellent book. Hell, just give me plenty of Stannis chapters and it's book of the year in my eyes.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 24, 2011)

Part of Feast was good, like Cersei and Sansa. Some were meh like Dorne and Greyjoys. Some were awful. Brienne seemed like filler.


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## Cyphon (Jun 24, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Part of Feast was good, like Cersei and Sansa. Some were meh like Dorne and Greyjoys. Some were awful. Brienne seemed like filler.



Sansa was actually the parts I liked the least in the book. I didn't mind the Greyjoy stuff and Dorne had its intersting points.

Definitely going with "to each his own" but just saying. Sansa parts were pretty boring.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 24, 2011)

It wasn't so much Sansa that I liked, it was Littlefinger. That fucker is brilliant, he understands the game of thrones better than Tywin even.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 24, 2011)

Whatever Euron is up to should be interesting. I don't think he has a POV in _Dance with Dragons_, but his brother Victarion does.

Does anyone remember all the mothers who died giving birth? Rhaella with Daenerys, Joanna with Tyrion, and possibly Lyanna. Who are the others?


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## The Imp (Jun 24, 2011)

Did Catelyn's mom die giving birth to Edmure?


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## Cyphon (Jun 24, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> It wasn't so much Sansa that I liked, it was Littlefinger. That fucker is brilliant, he understands the game of thrones better than Tywin even.



I figured as much but I don't even like him. I won't deny his genius but even so I find little (no pun intended) interesting about him. 

I think most of the reason he isn't interesting to me now is because it involves Sansa who doesn't interest me.


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## uchihasurvivor (Jun 25, 2011)

I was really bored with Brienne POV at first, till she starts kicking asses with oathkeeper. 

Sansa chapters in Feast, were the best out of all Sansa chapters. We got to see a bit of backstage Littlefinger and Sansa was not a whiny little girl anymore.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 26, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Did Catelyn's mom die giving birth to Edmure?


Possibly. I remember she mentions something about her father getting depressed after the wife's death, but iirc doesn't say anything that links it to Edmure. But I always skip Catelyn's Riverrun chapters so I don't know.


----------



## Felix (Jun 26, 2011)

Apparently I'm the only one that enjoyed Martell and Greyjoy chapters.
I love those houses

And I want MORE
I liked feast, it was the calm after the giant... uh... Storm of Swords


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## Nayrael (Jun 26, 2011)

i also liked Martells and Greyjoys. Most people seem to care only for oldest characters but I for one like the fact that the story expands to other Houses with time.


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## Felix (Jun 26, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> i also liked Martells and Greyjoys. Most people seem to care only for oldest characters but I for one like the fact that the story expands to other Houses with time.



Exactly, they are all major players that will contribute towards the state of affairs in Westeros

People only want Jon, Arya, Tyrion and Dany chapters. What's the fun of that.

I like A Song of Ice and Fire because of the vast array of characters and various PoVs, not because I fap to Jon and Dany and Dragons and shit


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## The Imp (Jun 26, 2011)

I liked the Greyjoy chapters. Euron is pretty cool. I wasn't really a big fan of the Dorne chapters, but Doran's scheming is interesting.


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## abcd (Jun 26, 2011)

When Khal drogo is being revived by the maegi , Daenerys sees shadow of a great wolf and a man wreathed in flames dancing in the tent ..... Is this some symbolism like stag killing the direwolf and dying ?

The great wolf representing the starks and the burning man Stannis ?


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## martryn (Jun 26, 2011)

I was most satisfied with the Martell chapters in that book myself.  Definitely highlight.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jun 26, 2011)

If I'd have to give a single character POV chapters it would be Varys.I find him very fascinating,even more so than Tyrion or Littlefinger.His views on the issue of power from ACOK were intriguing.


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## martryn (Jun 26, 2011)

Tyrion is my favorite point of view.  Jon Snow and Arya are actually my least favorites thus far.  Snow comes across as a prick.  Arya's chapters are a bit hard to believe, and she seems to think rather highly of herself.  Just like Snow.  And for what?  Fuck that.


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## Dash (Jun 27, 2011)

Finished Game of Thrones. Ned and Jon were my favorite point of views with Tyrion as a close third.


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## abcd (Jun 27, 2011)

martryn said:


> Tyrion is my favorite point of view.  Jon Snow and Arya are actually my least favorites thus far.  Snow comes across as a prick.  Arya's chapters are a bit hard to believe, and she seems to think rather highly of herself.  Just like Snow.  And for what?  Fuck that.



My fav POVs are Arya, Jon Snow and Tyrion  , Snow has a lot of faults but his story gives a nic perspective about the north the wall (Bran will be doing it in Dance ) , We can see the commoners through aryas eyes  and Tyrion ofcourse for being tyrion  ...


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## martryn (Jun 27, 2011)

I like the story of the Wall.  One of my favorite things to read about.  And I like Jon Snow just fine.  I just don't like his POV.  

And I like a lot of things about Arya's POV, I just don't really care for Arya.  I hate it when 8 year old girls pretend they're hot shit.  Arya is hot shit, but I get the impression she sorta gloats about it.  Humility is a virtue.


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## Nayrael (Jun 27, 2011)

Humility is a virtue... unless you are a noble. It becomes a death sentence then.
You can't really expect a child of a powerful noble house to be humble.


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## martryn (Jun 27, 2011)

If she were smart she'd quickly learn her place.  I prefer Sansa's POV's now.  It's closer to what I'd expect.


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## abcd (Jun 27, 2011)

Arya is making a lot of mistakes (as a 8 year old should) and She is learning from it and fast...

I am sure Sansa would never have survived flea bottom eating raw pigeons .. To me she looks like a survivor


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 27, 2011)

Gotta get this thought out cause its driving me nuts  - first time seeing the Pycelle scene in the last episode of the show, I was shocked, shocked, shocked seeing Sansa there with him, in her little Princess Amadalla hair grip, naked. But it wasn't Sansa, it was just Roz, which i realized after a second. 

But it finally struck me . . .

Roz is not a replacement for Alayaya, but the replacement for Jeyne Poole, the Fake Arya chick. Let's look at her, a Northern Girl, currently in Littlefinger's grasp, auburn hair, could easily pass as the sister of Sansa Stark, age and order of birth be damned. It could work cause you know Tywin and the Boltons don't give a damn, cause everyone who knew Arya is presumably dead, and everyone who had a turn with Roz is also presumed to be dead thanks to Ramsay killing all of Winterfell and the Freys murdering most of the Northern Army. 

*Sample Chapter from Dance with Dragons spoilers and speculation*

In the sample chapter of Dance, we know where Theon is heading . . . we can assume that he'll recognize the Fake Arya as Jeyne. In the show, who is gonna be the fake Arya who Theon can recognize if not Roz? 

Then there's the fact that in the show, Jon also knows her face . . . does that mean he has a meeting with Jeyne in Dance? Does he ride for Ramsay's wedding in a fit of madness? 

All this means is that the show runners love Roz's actress, and have had a plan to make her relevant and important to this story since the beginning of the conception of the show. If the show is around for 4-6 more seasons, she and her twins will be there as a very essential piece to fabric of the tapestry that is the show..


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## Grrblt (Jun 27, 2011)

I took Ros only as a way to bring unspoken explanations out in the open. Littlefinger explains to her that he's in love with Catelyn, that she was originally meant to marry Ned's brother, stuff like that. I believe Theon dropped some stuff when he was enjoying her company too, and she herself gives some insight on coming events when we see her leaving for King's Landing. Basically she is a tool to bring out everything that only existed as personal thoughts from POV characters.


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## abcd (Jun 27, 2011)

Grrblt said:


> I took Ros only as a way to bring unspoken explanations out in the open. Littlefinger explains to her that he's in love with Catelyn, that she was originally meant to marry Ned's brother, stuff like that. I believe Theon dropped some stuff when he was enjoying her company too, and she herself gives some insight on coming events when we see her leaving for King's Landing. Basically she is a tool to bring out everything that only existed as personal thoughts from POV characters.



But what he says makes a lot of sense too since we never properly met Jeyne Poole...


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 27, 2011)

martryn said:


> If she were smart she'd quickly learn her place.



If she were around 5 years older she would be "smarter"... tough certainly not humble. She would just be better at violence and possibly deceiving.

But she is a 10 years old girl and and is still maturing mentally. You can't really expect her to think like a grown-up.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 27, 2011)

I just reserved a copy of _A Dance with Dragons_ this past Friday at a local bookstore; I now am guaranteed to have a copy on its release date, and I am very excited about that. I hope to read it as quickly as possible, as I plan to take the CompTIA Network+ exam at the end of July and thus shall need to study for it. I also preserved a copy of _Inheritance,_ the final book of _The Inheritance Cycle,_n at the same time, although that book shall not be released until November, which I believe is a very wise decision, as that places it almost perfectly between the releases of _A Dance with Dragons_ and that of _A Memory of Light,_ the final book of _The Wheel of Time,_ which is guaranteed to be epic, in my mind.

Now, as for this series, I am not certain if I have a favorite character, but my favorite perspective is Jon's as he is the closest that this series has to a traditional fantasy hero, and prior to that, Ned's perspective was my favorite for the same reason.

And while I do prefer the "main" character's viewpoints, I do appreciate the viewpoints of "minor" characters, as well, as they help to give the world greater depth and variety, so I hope that the supporting cast in the next book.

I do hope that the false Arya is exposed, as the imposter should not be disgracing Arya's good name with her deception, but anyone who could do so will be in great danger if they do so, so I hope that if either Jon or Theon decide to expose her, they have a contingency plan for if the Lannisters or Boltons decide to silence them.

On that subject, are there any people in Westeros who would openly display a support for House Stark, now that it is all but extinct? If so, how would the other noble houses react, and if not, what chance is there of House Stark ever rising again?

Fenix Down: I hope that Martin does not allow the television series to have any influence over his writing of the books, as he is the creator of the series, and his decisions are final. That may seem to be very harsh and strict, but if an author does not have supreme control over their own creations, how terrible a situation is that?


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 27, 2011)

> On that subject, are there any people in Westeros who would openly display a support for House Stark, now that it is all but extinct? If so, how would the other noble houses react, and if not, what chance is there of House Stark ever rising again?



The Vale Knights like the Starks it seems and they would have gone to war if not for Lysa's disapproval. Hell, Littlefinger still counts on their support for House Stark and intends to increase it by marrying Sansa to the future ruler of the Vale.

Many Northern Houses would also support Starks. Bolton's definitely won't be nearly as loved, especially not after the Red Wedding.


----------



## Felix (Jun 27, 2011)

Riverrun still supports the Starks
They still have the Direwolve banner I think


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 27, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> are there any people in Westeros who would openly display a support for House Stark, now that it is all but extinct? If so, how would the other noble houses react, and if not, what chance is there of House Stark ever rising again?


I'm sure Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners wouldn't be shy about supporting House Stark.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 27, 2011)

CSI Board Shorts on clearance for 10 bucks

Amazon.de is shipping out the book 2 weeks early. It might have been a mistake though and they aren't shipping it out until the official date.


----------



## abcd (Jun 27, 2011)

The Imp said:


> CSI Board Shorts on clearance for 10 bucks
> 
> Amazon.de is shipping out the book 2 weeks early. It might have been a mistake though and they aren't shipping it out until the official date.



grrm confirmed this 

 Alas, Amazon.de has lied to you. No DANCE till July 12.

see comments


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 27, 2011)

Can't wait for this book!


----------



## martryn (Jun 27, 2011)

> But she is a 10 years old girl and and is still maturing mentally. You can't really expect her to think like a grown-up.



Meh.  I liked her until Feast.  I didn't like the Braavos Arya.  Sorta a bitch.  Cocky little girl got what was coming to her.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 27, 2011)

There are quite a number who could support the Starks. Obvious ones are the Vale and Riverrun. The remaining northmen who don't appreciate Bolton might as well. 

The real wild card is Highgarden. Mace and Olenna are probably furious about what happened with Margaery and Loras. If Highgarden merely ends their alliance with the Lannisters, House Lannister is isolated against 4 great houses (Baratheon too) since Dorne doesn't really support them.

Can't wait to see the Freys get fucked. You know it won't be pretty.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 27, 2011)

martryn said:


> Meh.  I liked her until Feast.  I didn't like the Braavos Arya.  Sorta a bitch.  Cocky little girl got what was coming to her.



I may be biased (though trying to be fair) but that was the part Arya had to play. She is dealing with sailors, cutpurses and all kinds of hooligans where she has to sell her wares. 

I would also argue it is what she had to become from just a basic survival point of view after what she has been through. Even saying that she _is_ still arrogant but IMO it is kind of excusable given her cirumstances both current and previous.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 27, 2011)

Tyrells have little reason to support Starks now. Iron Throne is in their reach and threat of Casterly Rock has fallen greatly with death of Lord Tywin and embarrassing imprisonment of his heir Cersei. And should they become the controller of the Iron Throne, Starks would be someone they'd like to have subjugated.

That is, if the rise of Sept's Holy Orders didn't happen, it would be so. Sept is now a major player in the Game of Thrones and the political picture of South will soon change and until we see just how powerful they will get and how their relationship with Tyrells and Lannisters develop, we can't really predict what will happen in future... besides the fact that blood will probably spill between the Sept and one of these two Houses.


----------



## abcd (Jun 27, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Tyrells have little reason to support Starks now. Iron Throne is in their reach and threat of Casterly Rock has fallen greatly with death of Lord Tywin and embarrassing imprisonment of his heir Cersei. And should they become the controller of the Iron Throne, Starks would be someone they'd like to have subjugated.
> 
> That is, if the rise of Sept's Holy Orders didn't happen, it would be so. Sept is now a major player in the Game of Thrones and the political picture of South will soon change and until we see just how powerful they will get and how their relationship with Tyrells and Lannisters develop, we can't really predict what will happen in future... besides the fact that blood will probably spill between the Sept and one of these two Houses.



I wish we can see sept vs citadel .....


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 27, 2011)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> I'm sure Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners wouldn't be shy about supporting House Stark.


The Bolton's were involved in the Red Wedding, right? Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood are going to the Dreadfort at some point, especially when she finds out from Brienne that "Arya" is married to Ramsey Bolton . I want to see that confrontation.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 28, 2011)

The Imp said:


> CSI Board Shorts on clearance for 10 bucks
> 
> Amazon.de is shipping out the book 2 weeks early. It might have been a mistake though and they aren't shipping it out until the official date.



Fucking hell, I think it's true, some people just posted some pics of the book. GRRM gonna be really pissed!


They even posted pics of the maps! 
And I'm freaking jealous!!!!!


----------



## abcd (Jun 28, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> Fucking hell, I think it's true, some people just posted some pics of the book. GRRM gonna be really pissed!
> 
> 
> They even posted pics of the maps!
> And I'm freaking jealous!!!!!



I think Amazon might be looking at an anti trust lawsuit   ( grrm was pretty pissed off on his blog)

I think its better if I dont visit this thread till i finish adwd


----------



## The Imp (Jun 28, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> Fucking hell, I think it's true, some people just posted some pics of the book. GRRM gonna be really pissed!
> 
> 
> They even posted pics of the maps!
> And I'm freaking jealous!!!!!



Any new maps? If yes, can you post some links?

Also I'm gonna stop browsing the internet for the next two weeks, because some ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) somewhere is going to spoil it.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 28, 2011)

New maps:







Can try to get better scan at 4chan, but that place is a freaking landmine for the moment.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 28, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> New maps:


Those look really nice. I'd been wondering about their placements.


----------



## Felix (Jun 28, 2011)

We finally have a nice map of Valyria


----------



## abcd (Jun 28, 2011)

about the map

*Spoiler*: __ 



I am not able to link Valyria to the rest of the continent...  Asshai is even more to the east of Valyria is it ?? , Is sothboryos the shadow Islands ?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 28, 2011)

abcd said:


> about the map
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



The Valyria map seems to line up with the eastern edge of the Free Cities map.

As for Asshai, I don't see it labeled on the maps.


----------



## dream (Jun 28, 2011)

I couldn't resist and read the spoilers.  

I want the book already.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 28, 2011)

> On that subject, would it be too great a spoiler to look at those new maps? I really wish to see them, but I do not wish to risk any drama from the upcoming book being ruined for me.



I think only one of those three maps is new (or the other 3 are almost the same as those I saw in Croatian edition of ASOIAF books) and I don't think maps are so special that you will lose anything by looking at them...


----------



## The Imp (Jun 28, 2011)

Only the Free Cities map is new.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 28, 2011)

Oooh, nice maps.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 28, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> I couldn't resist and read the spoilers.
> 
> I want the book already.



I did read 2 spoilers, and I was like


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 28, 2011)

Those of you who have sinned... does the book sound good judging by the spoilers? 
Use just one word for answer  (good, bad, pathetic, awesome, mind-raping, Chuck_Norris...)


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 28, 2011)

The book seems like a Chuck Norris mind-rape. 

Shouldn't have read those two lines  God forgive me the temptation was too high.


----------



## dream (Jun 28, 2011)

Nayrael:  I haven't seen too many spoilers but the ones that I have seen are somewhat painting a good picture.  Though there is one event that will either make me happy or move me to a towering rage.


----------



## Nathan (Jun 28, 2011)

Ahh... I wish I can get this book early! I was so tempted to even order the book on Amazon.ca and I have actually been debating to do that for a long time (not that amazon.ca was shipping books early though) so it can be on my doorstep on the 12th, but then we had a postal strike and postal service is slowly going back to normal, so I did not want to risk getting the book late, therefore, I will just have to go to the bookstore on the 12th.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 28, 2011)

New motto of House Stark:


----------



## Splintered (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm trying not to give into temptation and spoil myself, but it's pretty damn hard.


----------



## Serp (Jun 28, 2011)

Splinterfell said:


> I'm trying not to give into temptation and spoil myself, but it's pretty damn hard.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 28, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Those of you who have sinned... does the book sound good judging by the spoilers?


I read the prologue (or part of it) a long, long time ago and thought it was really good.


----------



## crazymtf (Jun 28, 2011)

Spoilers reveal anyone's death? That's all I want to know if there are MAJOR deaths. Don't SPOIL WHO it is, just if there are any.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 28, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Spoilers reveal anyone's death? That's all I want to know if there are MAJOR deaths. Don't SPOIL WHO it is, just if there are any.



*Spoiler*: __ 



The prologue has death, IIRC. 


Though beyond that I'm not sure if that's what you're asking.


----------



## KidTony (Jun 28, 2011)

I read some spoilers, and in anticipation i will tell you two things (not spoilers, so fear not)

-ADWD seems to be more like ASOS than AFFC
-The unknown POV character, no one would have guessed


----------



## crazymtf (Jun 28, 2011)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha you joker you!


----------



## dream (Jun 28, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Spoilers reveal anyone's death? That's all I want to know if there are MAJOR deaths. Don't SPOIL WHO it is, just if there are any.




*Spoiler*: __ 



One possible major major major death.  The character loses consciousness after being stabbed four times but it isn't said if said character died.


----------



## crazymtf (Jun 28, 2011)

Awesome, that's all I wanted to know.


----------



## dream (Jun 28, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Awesome, that's all I wanted to know.



Can you resist?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon Snow is the one that was stabbed.


----------



## crazymtf (Jun 29, 2011)

OMFG.....NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## dream (Jun 29, 2011)

Such weak willpower you have.  


*Spoiler*: __ 




I really hope that Jon doesn't die.


----------



## Splintered (Jun 29, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Such weak willpower you have.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


I spoiled myself because I can't apparently wait a few days to get the books even after waiting since way too long.

BUT NO REGRETS.

*Spoiler*: __ 




He's not going to die.

GRRM would lose half of his fanbase and his Wall POV.  Unless Samwell comes back, but Samwell went nosedive after he gained his own POV.


----------



## reiatsuflow (Jun 29, 2011)

The first season of Game of Thrones was so much fun that I have to start reading the books now.


----------



## crazymtf (Jun 29, 2011)

Splinterfell said:


> I spoiled myself because I can't apparently wait a few days to get the books even after waiting since way too long.
> 
> BUT NO REGRETS.
> 
> ...



Sure...
*Spoiler*: __ 



Sure, he worried about losing his fanbase when he killed off Ned...then killed off Rob...yeah doubt he's worried much bout losing his fanbase, lol.


----------



## dream (Jun 29, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> Sure...
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 





I won't believe that he is dead until we have actual confirmation from Martin.  

Also the other two had awesome deaths, no way is Jon going to die by being stabbed by fucking nobodies before accomplishing something epic.


----------



## Splintered (Jun 29, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 




Jon Snow reached popularity as a POV character neither Robb nor Ned attained.  Or at least, Ned did have a lot but only got one book.

I'm not particularly worried about Jon, maybe because I've never been incredibly attached to him, but I liked his story and am always pro-Stark.  Jon dying before the Others invade or the finale just doesn't seem likely.  He's got baggage to deal with Stannis.  Especially if he doesn't get to see Arya or we don't get to learn the truth behind his parentage.

Unless it happens in this book.


----------



## Grrblt (Jun 29, 2011)

Do you guys know how long it'll take for the DwD paperback version to come out? I bought the 4-in-1 thing from Amazon, and I really don't like it when I have mixed paperback and hardcover versions of a series (book shelf looks ugly ). How soon will I be able to buy the paperback?


----------



## Serp (Jun 29, 2011)

I'm not clicking these spoilers, my willpower is strong!

In brightest Day
In blackest Night
No spoiler shall reach my sight


----------



## The Imp (Jun 29, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> I'm not clicking these spoilers, my willpower is strong!
> 
> In brightest Day
> In blackest Night
> No spoiler shall reach my sight



It's so tempting but I got to resist. It's making me excited and frustrated at the same time



Grrblt said:


> Do you guys know how long it'll take for the DwD paperback version to come out? I bought the 4-in-1 thing from Amazon, and I really don't like it when I have mixed paperback and hardcover versions of a series (book shelf looks ugly ). How soon will I be able to buy the paperback?



Probably a year. I'm just gonna keep getting what ever comes out first and then when the series is hopefully over, I'll buy a matching set.


----------



## Grrblt (Jun 29, 2011)

A year!?  that's way too long 

I hope it comes to the library pretty quick then... but probably it won't


----------



## The Imp (Jun 29, 2011)

It's already been leaked, so you might be able to download the book in a couple of weeks. I don't really like reading books on my computer, but it's always an option if you don't want to buy the hardcover.


----------



## Grrblt (Jun 29, 2011)

That's a good idea, even though I prefer real books as well. And as I will buy it eventually, I don't have to feel the slightest bit guilty about it.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 29, 2011)

I am buying both US and Croatian version. US version because I can't wait to read it and CRO version for quality (even tough CRO version is around 2.5x times more expensive ^_^


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 29, 2011)

Grrblt said:


> Do you guys know how long it'll take for the DwD paperback version to come out? I bought the 4-in-1 thing from Amazon, and I really don't like it when I have mixed paperback and hardcover versions of a series (book shelf looks ugly ). How soon will I be able to buy the paperback?


I'm past that point already. I have 1, 2, and 4 in small paperback but 3 is a large paperback. Adding in the different cover designs, it makes the series look quite silly.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 29, 2011)

Weaklings who look at spoilers 

My will remains strong... even though somehow that Westeros site has 4 Dany chapters. Must be like the first 200 pages leaked!


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 29, 2011)

Those Dany chapters were there for years and are probably different in real ADWD ^_^;


----------



## Sesha (Jun 29, 2011)

Most, if not all, of the spoiler chapters are old and are confirmed to have been rewritten to varying degrees.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 29, 2011)

Good news, Roy Dotrice is doing the audiobooks for _Dance with Dragons_. Whoever the narrator was for Feast was god-awful. I'll buy the actual book when they have standardised covers for the entire series.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jun 30, 2011)

Sesha said:


> Most, if not all, of the spoiler chapters are old and are confirmed to have been rewritten to varying degrees.



Source please?


----------



## abcd (Jun 30, 2011)

ha ha !

i got my copy from thalia 

i feel so evil now


----------



## Felix (Jun 30, 2011)

I shall not be spoiled
Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken

I'm curious about the mysterious POV though


----------



## abcd (Jun 30, 2011)

Felix said:


> I shall not be spoiled
> Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken
> 
> I'm curious about the mysterious POV though



Actually me too ... but i want to read and find out ... I can spoil u with the short introduction on the book flap if u don't mind , one sentence in it was pretty spoilery and i was annoyed >.<

From the book flap:
*Spoiler*: __ 




Tyrion lannister too is making his way to Daenerys But his newest allies are not as rag tag as they seem, and at their heart lies one who could undo Daenerys's claim to westros forever.


----------



## Felix (Jun 30, 2011)

abcd said:


> Actually me too ... but i want to read and find out ... I can spoil u with the short introduction on the book flap if u don't mind , one sentence in it was pretty spoilery and i was annoyed >.<
> 
> From the book flap:
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I don't consider those stuff spoiler, more like petit appetizers.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Good news, Roy Dotrice is doing the audiobooks for _Dance with Dragons_. Whoever the narrator was for Feast was god-awful. I'll buy the actual book when they have standardised covers for the entire series.



Until they confirm Stephen Fry, fuck audio books.

Though I'd probably make for a good narrator, too.


----------



## abcd (Jun 30, 2011)

Felix said:


> I don't consider those stuff spoiler, more like petit appetizers.



That is true ... There are small spoilers and then there are the big ones , but u never know how touchy people are about them ... ( I still feel that i should have started reading the book instead of the book flap )


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 30, 2011)

Hangat?r said:


> Until they confirm Stephen Fry, fuck audio books.
> 
> Though I'd probably make for a good narrator, too.


That would be awesome I know. I mean Stephen Fry not you. Dotrice doesn't do a half-arsed job though, he pretty much  nails it.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 30, 2011)

Can you say who is the mystery POV?


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 30, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Can you say who is the mystery POV?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Heard it's John Connington, not sure though


----------



## Felix (Jun 30, 2011)

Who the fuck?


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 30, 2011)

Felix said:


> Who the fuck?



Tower of the Hand Link:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Link

And people complained how Dany was the only character in the East ^_^;
Now we have more then 5...


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 30, 2011)

Felix said:


> Who the fuck?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hand of the king during Aerys and friend with Rhaegar. He was exile, he is related to another big spoiler below




*Spoiler*: __ 



he was raising and hiding Aegon...




*Spoiler*: __ 



son of Rhaegar


----------



## Felix (Jun 30, 2011)

I've opened all of those spoilers because now I'm pumped AS FUCK


----------



## Zaru (Jun 30, 2011)

Just ordered the first 4 volumes
Delicious reading incoming


----------



## Felix (Jun 30, 2011)

Zaru said:


> Just ordered the first 4 volumes
> Delicious reading incoming



Prepare your anus Zaru
You could order the fifth Volume as well by now


----------



## abcd (Jun 30, 2011)

Zaru said:


> Just ordered the first 4 volumes
> Delicious reading incoming



Not a good idea to hang around this thread till u catch up


----------



## Yakuza (Jun 30, 2011)

So, finally finished re-reading A Feast for Crows........ Roll on July 12th!


----------



## Sesha (Jun 30, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Good news, Roy Dotrice is doing the audiobooks for _Dance with Dragons_. Whoever the narrator was for Feast was god-awful. I'll buy the actual book when they have standardised covers for the entire series.



That's the guy who did the first three books, right? I haven't listened to any of them myself, but he's supposed to be good.



Kagekatsu said:


> Source please?



George said it in his recent blog post about DwD's writing process. Also I remember reading it some place before that, although I'm not sure where.


----------



## KidTony (Jun 30, 2011)

lol Stephen Fry, sounds like you haven't heard Roy Dotrice. That guy is amazing.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2011)

.


----------



## Splintered (Jun 30, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is nothing not beautiful about this post.


----------



## Felix (Jun 30, 2011)

Splinterfell said:


> There is nothing not beautiful about this post.


----------



## KidTony (Jun 30, 2011)

Hangat?r said:


> .



Looks like someone's been listening to his Harry Potter audiobooks.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2011)

Or, ya know, rather everything else Stephen Fry has done.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 30, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



I guess that solves the question of the third head of the dragon.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 30, 2011)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that solves the question of the third head of the dragon.



Be warn, another big spoiler

*Spoiler*: __ 



You actually all know him, he supposed to be Aurane Waters. Remember the guy who look like Rhaegar in Cersei POV


----------



## Felix (Jun 30, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> Be warn, another big spoiler
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



OH GEORGE R.R MARTIN WE LOVE YOU
Still, wasn't that guy older?

EDIT:

Tower of the Hand says:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Aurane Waters is 22, Robert's Rebelion was 15 years ago. Wasn't Aegon a baby?


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 30, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> Be warn, another big spoiler
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Thats has been confirmed to be a fake spoiler

Here is another spoiler..


*Spoiler*: __ 



Coldhands is...

*Spoiler*: __ 



Bloodreaven, the most badass guy in Westeros IMO


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 30, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Thats has been confirmed to be a fake spoiler
> 
> Here is another spoiler..
> 
> ...



who? Never heard of him.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 30, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 




Bloodreaven is bastard son of Aegon IV Targaryen, real name Brynden Rivers. Had ancient Valyrian Blade Dark Sister.

During Blackfyre Rebellion, he stood with Targs and on battlefield HEADSHOOTED BLACKFYRE AND BOTH OF HIS SONS!!

After the rebellion, he served the King (as Hand I think) and was practically the real ruler of Westeros (oh the irony...).
He was known as having 1000 eyes and one. 1000 eyes because he was like Varys: had eyes everywhere in Westeros which he used to brutally hunt down any Blackfyre sympathizers. The one eye part is... well, he has physycally only one eye 
And he still uses that phrase.

And now he is Coldhands.

I think most of his background is told in Dunk&Egg.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 30, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that form Dunk and egg?
I didn't read that yet.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 30, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



The guy lives during D&E timeline




Anotehr spoiler, this one concerning Arya:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Blindness confirmed to be training... and helluva good training.
Arya also wargs more, now even in other beasts. This impresses the Kind Man




And some apetizer:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Mystery of old gods is slowly being revealed...


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jun 30, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sound awesome...where did you get that?


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 30, 2011)

Why... Tower of the Hand of course... you know you can find everything there 

Just click on Discussion for every chapter. It has comments up to 44 at point of writing this.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 30, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> who? Never heard of him.



*Spoiler*: __ 



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bloodraven


----------



## Splintered (Jun 30, 2011)

So many names, I can't keep up with most of them...


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 30, 2011)

So basically shit just got real.


----------



## martryn (Jun 30, 2011)

Fucking thread is spoiler central.  And I love it.  Can't wait to read the book now.  I'm even more psyched just to find out what is actually true or not.


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 30, 2011)

On Jon and Tormund:


*Spoiler*: __ 



The Bromance prevails! Jon and Tormund are allied...

A much, much bigger spoiler connected to this:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Mance Ryder is alive and serves Jon as some kind of secret agent XD

With Mance and Tormund on their side, Stannis and NW are tough guys now!

Oh, and something about Stannis:

*Spoiler*: __ 



He kicked Bolton's as into Winterfell, then kicked a Greyjoy ass and now goes to Winterfell to kick that Bolton's ass again!










Damn... I think I am nosebleeding from all this


----------



## Serp (Jun 30, 2011)

Damn you all now one of my favourite threads on the forum is full of spoilers


----------



## dream (Jun 30, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Damn you all now one of my favourite threads on the forum is full of spoilers



You don't like spoilers?  

But they are so wonderful and enticing.


----------



## Nathan (Jun 30, 2011)

I have to say, I started reading those little summaries on Tower of the Hand. I first told myself to stop reading at chapter 10, and then I'm like "Nah, I'll keep going" and I continued on a bit and read something very spoilery. So that is all I am going to read until I get my hands on the book!


----------



## Nayrael (Jun 30, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Damn you all now one of my favourite threads on the forum is full of spoilers



Suggestion: start a discussion about something ASOIAF related and non-ADWD related and people may end up discussing that as well 



			
				Nathan said:
			
		

> I have to say, I started reading those little summaries on Tower of the Hand. I first told myself to stop reading at chapter 10, and then I'm like "Nah, I'll keep going" and I continued on a bit and read something very spoilery. So that is all I am going to read until I get my hands on the book!



Suggestion: Don't ever read spoilers if you don't want to get spoiled. No matter how tame they may seem at first, they will ruin your life if you can't stand spoilers


----------



## Yakuza (Jun 30, 2011)

Spoilers are making me punch my son in anxiety. Shit is getting real!


----------



## Yakuza (Jun 30, 2011)

BTW, what u guys think of this theory?

*spoilers on the link* Link


----------



## Serp (Jun 30, 2011)

Oh another R+L=J theory. 

My fun theories:
Robert comes back to life as a Wereboar.

Hotpie is baby Aegon.

Gingers have magic powers.

Jojen is baby Aegon and Meera=Rhaenys.

Brienne is a Descendant of Dunk


----------



## The Imp (Jun 30, 2011)

Brienne did have his old shield in her family armory so it is possible, but he's only a few generations older than her and becomes famous in his own right so you would think she knows a bit about his history instead of vaguely remembering the coat of arms.


----------



## Yakuza (Jun 30, 2011)

Im pretty much sold on R+L=J


----------



## Serp (Jun 30, 2011)

Well I think GRRM said that a relative of Dunk would be in the current series. And they are both huge fucking Blond tanks. :/


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 30, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Damn you all now one of my favourite threads on the forum is full of spoilers



You have ban powaz. Use them. 



Yakuza said:


> Im pretty much sold on R+L=J



Many people are. It's the only explanation I can find that makes sense of the Tower of Joy flashback.


----------



## Yakuza (Jun 30, 2011)

theories threads are so fun to read


----------



## Serp (Jun 30, 2011)

The tower of joy could have many possibilities. I believe R+L=J points to Avy, but I think if GRRM is a good enough story teller he will troll us and make something happen that fits but was unexpected.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 30, 2011)

Yeah, he seems like the kind of person who hates to do what is expected. 

I'm gonna lol if it really is Willa(?) the peasant girl.


----------



## Serp (Jun 30, 2011)

In the end Jon was just a Bastard and all was right with the world.


----------



## dream (Jun 30, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> In the end Jon was just a Bastard and all was right with the world.



Sometimes I like that more than R+L=J.  Instead of some prophesied hero coming to save the world from another invasion of the Others it'll be a nobody, as much as someone with Stark blood can be, that rises up to ultimately save the world.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 30, 2011)

The only sad thing would be that the Targaryens would die with Dany, if she truly is barren. 

With R+L=J, there is still some hope that a fertile Targaryen of noble blood exists to continue the bloodline.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 30, 2011)

As much as I don't want Jon to be some destined hero, changing an important plot point because a fan theory was correct would be stupid. 



Serperion Targaryen said:


> Well I think GRRM said that a relative of Dunk would be in the current series. And they are both huge fucking Blond tanks. :/



Really? I haven't read the novellas, only the graphic novels and Dunk has brown hair in them.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 30, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Sometimes I like that more than R+L=J.  Instead of some prophesied hero coming to save the world from another invasion of the Others it'll be a nobody, as much as someone with Stark blood can be, that rises up to ultimately save the world.


Jon is such a sullen cunt who thinks way too much of himself. I wouldn't cry or give any shits if he died first page of the new novel. Daenerys can take his place as the one to destroy the Others.


----------



## Serp (Jun 30, 2011)

The Imp said:


> As much as I don't want Jon to be some destined hero, changing an important plot point because a fan theory was correct would be stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I haven't read the novellas, only the graphic novels and Dunk has brown hair in them.



I might have made up that Dunk had blond hair, I can't remember for the life of me.


----------



## abcd (Jul 1, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> The only sad thing would be that the Targaryens would die with Dany, if she truly is barren.
> 
> With R+L=J, there is still some hope that a fertile Targaryen of noble blood exists to continue the bloodline.



tbh why would we need a noble blood line to rule?...

Can a person like Davos not rule the 7 kingdoms effectively.... 

I think wats more important is the shadow of power ... Daenery has this because of her dragons but if the dragons are killed then she is a nobody once again.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

A delicious ADWD spoiler on Cersei:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Cersei had confessed, now she atones. She has to walk naked through King's Landing, with all the people insulting her and spitting her.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jul 1, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> The only sad thing would be that the Targaryens would die with Dany, if she truly is barren.
> 
> With R+L=J, there is still some hope that a fertile Targaryen of noble blood exists to continue the bloodline.



But with R+L=J, Jon is still a Snow, he would need to be legitimized.


----------



## Serp (Jul 1, 2011)

Rob said:


> But with R+L=J, Jon is still a Snow, he would need to be legitimized.



Part of R+L=J is that Rhaegar married Lyanna so he would be legit.


----------



## Coteaz (Jul 1, 2011)

So many spoilers...why do you all tempt me so?


----------



## Splintered (Jul 1, 2011)

abcd said:


> tbh why would we need a noble blood line to rule?...
> 
> Can a person like Davos not rule the 7 kingdoms effectively....
> 
> I think wats more important is the shadow of power ... Daenery has this because of her dragons but if the dragons are killed then she is a nobody once again.



Honestly, I think Dany is going to end up winning the iron throne, but I don't want it to happen.

I don't see why they need one king to rule seven kingdoms, especially when they have different cultures, different ideas, different religions, and many of them don't want to be ruled by someone who doesn't understand them.  No one 'deserves' to be King of Everything.  If the Iron Born wish for independence so bad that they would start two rebellions, why shouldn't they rule themselves?  If the North don't want to bend a knee to someone who knows shit about them, why should they?

Dany is is better ruling where she is, she's good at it and it's what she knows.  I don't think she's as much as outsider as she thinks she is, and she'd even be a bigger outsider in Westeros.

Of course, it won't happen but oh well.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

Nobody wants one kingdom in Westeros for some idealistic reason. The more crowns a person has, the more powerful that person is. In the Game of Thrones, power is most valuable resource to the Noble Houses.
And Iron Isles don't want independence as much as that they want power and conquest.

And I don't think Dany will end up on the Iron Throne nor do I think it is guaranteed that Westeros will be re-united completely.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 1, 2011)

Well..fuck


ADWD spoilers ahead:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon may have gotten stabbed,but he sure as heck ain't dead yet.

Too many unfinished plotlines left,much too many,and Martin never truly kills a character without a good reason.


And now I am worried about Jaime as well..


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm really interested with Bran's side of story, now he is becoming a warg padawan. He can already control animal and human, next step...dragon?


----------



## masamune1 (Jul 1, 2011)

Daenary's would be a terrible Queen, but Westeros does need a single ruler, given that Winter Is Coming.


----------



## Arishem (Jul 1, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> The only sad thing would be that the Targaryens would die with Dany, if she truly is barren.
> 
> With R+L=J, there is still some hope that a fertile Targaryen of noble blood exists to continue the bloodline.


While the direct Targaryen line would be gone, at the very least, their blood still persists within the Baratheons. Robert has also ensured that those genes won't disappear anytime soon.  I wonder if any of the Targaryens left bastards who went on to start their own families.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

There are only 3 Westerosi family with Targ blood as far as I know:
- Baratheons - their first member was Aegon's bastard brother and they married with Targ's when Targ's didn't have enough siblings
- Blackfyre - annihilated
- Martel - like Baratheons, married with Targ's few times as they are supposed to have Valyrian blood like Targ's... as well as for political reasons


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 1, 2011)

Aegon's bastard brother? Where do you get that from?


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

It was mentioned in appendix I believe as well as few time in stories.
When Targ's conquered Stormlands and destroyed the royal family there, Aegon gave that land to his bastard brother Orys who then created the Baratheon family.

The very reason Robert became King and not Eddard, Jon or Tywin is the fact that he had the highest claim to throne due to all this as well as the fact that Robert's Aunt was Rhaelle Targaryen.


----------



## Arishem (Jul 1, 2011)

House Velaryon, who also carry the blood of Valyria, had two bastards as a result of an affair between Elaena Targaryen and Alyn Velaryon. While they're apart from the house, it suggests that there are still people walking around with the dragon's blood. Whether that carries any significance for those descendants asides from a cool story would interesting to know.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 1, 2011)

Guys this book is a fucking shitstorm. 


*Spoiler*: _Biggest spoiler of the novel_ 



 Jon is dead. And no, apparently it isn't a cliffhanger dead, he's dead for real as in red wedding dead. 





*Spoiler*: _Comeplete breakdown of the novel_ 



A Dance with Dragons Review


I was one of the lucky Germans to have received their copy of “A Dance with Dragons” two weeks early (or, to say it in Martin’s terms: a fortnight early). It took me a total of three days to finish it, starting afternoon of the first day and finishing it noon of the third. The first-read-experience was commented in the chapter-by-chapter-section of “The Tower of the Hand”, so if you are interested in that, look it up there. This text here will deal with the book as a whole, spoilers, twists and all. Consider this your last warning before you continue to read: there be spoilers. If you want to have an untouched experience for “A Dance with Dragons”, don’t continue reading. 


Roughly the first 60% of the book cover the same time span as “A Feast for Crows” and shed some light on what happened north of Moat Cailin as well as what happens beyond the Narrow Sea. Most chapters cover the exploits of Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys, though there are three chapters for Bran, two for Asha Greyjoy, a couple for Theon Greyjoy, three for Barristan Selmy, three for Quentyn Martell, one for Areoh Hotah, three for Victarion Greyjoy, three for Jon Connington, one for Jaime, two for Cersei and one for Melisandre. In the prologue, we meet Varamyr Sixskins and the epilogue is delivered to us courtesy of Kevan Lannister. Including the last two, we witness the death of four POV. 


The story in the North is relatively simple: Jon has to try to make something out of the victory over the wildlings at the end of “A Storm of Swords”. He has to haggle with Stannis Baratheon and walk a thin red line trying to maintain the independence of the Watch while securing the support of the king. Simultaneously, he tries to strike an alliance with the wildlings – where he is on equal terms with Stannis – to settle them in the gift. Most black brothers oppose this course, and Jon needs most of his time to grow into the role of Lord Commander (although he does that real quick) and to make the necessary arrangements. Mance Rayder is burned to honor R’hollor and dies screaming. 


Bran marches north with Coldhands, whose identity remains unclear. Coldhands is dead, obviously, and he has been dead for long, which makes it unlikely that he is Benjen. His identity is not revealed, however. Bran makes advancements and can now warg in Hodor, several other beasts and has full control over Summer. Jojen gets weaker and weaker and threatens to die when the party is attacked by several wights. The fighting is brutal, and in the end they are rescued by a child of the forest, who invites them in the cave, where the Last Greenseer resided: they finally found the Three-Eyed-Crow. 


Said Greenseer proves to be Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven, grown into the roots of the old weirwoods that grow here. He teaches Bran not only some secrets about warging, but also in the old powers of the children of the forest and in greenseeing. This is done by warging into any weirwood, so Bran can watch everything around them. He witnesses the events at Winterfell, past and present, and tries to contact Theon Greyjoy. 


In the meantime, Stannis tries to gain allies. He is not successful, however, only Karstark declares for him. In this desperate situation, Jon counsels him to gain the allegiance of the mountain clans of the North (we remember, Bran encountered them before in “A Storm of Swords”). Then Stannis means to strike at Deepwood Motte, free it from the Ironborn and then march on the Dreadfort. 


At the Dreadfort, Ramsay Bolton holds a cruel regiment, flaying, killing and raping for sport and holding Theon Greyjoy gruesomely maimed and broken as a pet of his. It is through Theon’s eyes, who has taken the identity of Reek, that we see the whole bestiality of the Boltons. These chapters are made for retching, as they are cruel and ugly. Ramsay uses Theon to gain control of Moat Cailin and to reunite with Roose Bolton. Then they call all their allies to Winterfell, to celebrate the wedding with the false Arya Stark in its ruins. 


Also called is Wyman Manderly, the lord of White Harbor, to whom Davos Seaworth was sent to negotiate. Since his only surviving son is held hostage by the Lannisters and three Freys are at court to watch his actions, Manderly imprisons Davos and threatens him killed, which he supposedly does. In truth, he just kills a criminal whose hands he shortened before and sends Davos on to rescue Rickon Stark, who seems to be on Skagos (at least it is said he is where men eat other men, which would fit the description) and bring him back to White Harbor. Although that happens fairly early in the book, there are no further Davos chapters, so we don’t know how this mission is going. 


In the meantime, on the other side of the Narrow Sea, Tyrion comes before Illyrio in Pentos, who tells him that he wants him to meet Daenerys and ally with her. He will be sent there with a sellsword named Griff. This sellsword soon reveals himself to be Jon Connington, the childhood friend of Rhaegar Targaryen who was forced into exile by mad king Aerys. In his custody is another Targaryen offspring: Aegon, son of Rhaegar, who supposedly was killed by Armory Lorch but obviously smuggled out by Varys before and groomed for rule. Tyrion mentors him for a short while, planting the idea in his head of invading Westeros on his own. 


This succeeds only because Daenerys has not done what Illyrio and Varys expected. Instead of marching west, she stayed in Meereen. The Slaver’s Bay is not easily reached by land, however, and the way by sea is closed since the city is at war with Yunkai, and Volantis is half of a mind to declare war too. Daenerys has a host of problems to solve: the city hates her, and her Unsullied and freedmen die every night by hidden knives. The Yunkai’i prepare war, and then Xaro Xhoan Daxos shows up, posing an ultimatum: either Daenerys leaves the city, or Qarth will declare war. Which is exactly what happens. 


Tyrion himself is soon abducted from Griff and Aegon by the hands of Jorah Mormont. Instead of pursuing him or trying to meet Dany, Aegon decides to make for Westeros, like Tyrion counseled. In Mormont’s captivity, Tyrion meets the dwarf woman Penny, who performed the mock joust together with her brother at Joffrey’s wedding feast. Her brother was killed, though, because of the lordship Cersei promised for Tyrion’s head. Tyrion performs acts together with Penny to save his life, becoming a mummer riding the great sow. Tywin is sure to rotate in his grave. 


Meereen in the meantime is surrounded by foes. Daenerys can’t make use of her dragons since they have become unruly, attacking and devouring humans. She chained up Viserion and Rheagal, but Drogon escaped, never to be seen again. Her enemies outnumber her manyfold. The only option she sees, to stop the murder within the city walls and to prevent the storm from without, is marrying a chief Meereenese noble, which she does, but not after finally sleeping with Daario Naharis several times. 


Jorah Mormont tries to reach Meereen with Tyrion, hoping to get a pardon by presenting him to Daenerys, but slavers attack their ship and take them all captive. They are sold to a Yunkish merchant, who uses them to entertain himself in the siege of Meereen. When a plague breaks out and takes their master, Tyrion manages to turn to Brown Ben Plumm from the Second Sons, who deserted Daenerys, who takes him, Penny and Jorah in his service in exchange for the promise of Pentos and nearly all the gold from Casterly Rock. With that, Tyrion’s story ends. 


Daenerys in the meantime has celebrated the wedding with the Meereenese noble by finally reopening the fighting pits. In the midst of all the bloody gladiator battles, Drogon lands directly in the arena, killing some people. Daenerys manages to cow him and to jump his back, and then Drogon flies away. She can’t control him, however, and doesn’t manage to return. Barristan Selmy takes over matters together with some of her advisors, dethrones her husband – who tried to murder her – and rules the city as Hand in her stead. 


All the while, two other people made for Meereen: Victarion Greyjoy and Quentyn Martell. While Victarion has lost half his fleet to storms, he manages to regain confidence by seizing ships along the way and with help of a powerful red priest, to whom he soon heeds for counsel. Quentyn can’t reach Meereen, so he joins up with some mercenaries, deserts them and reaches Dany the day before her wedding, unable to make her honor the old marriage contract that was done by Ser Willem Darry (!) and Doran Martell after their flight from Dragonstone years and years past. After Dany’s vanished, Martell decides that he has enough dragon blood in him to tame one of the remaining two dragons and prove worthy for Dany that way, but he fails and dies, engulfed by dragon flame. The other two dragons are loose as well, devastating parts of Meereen. 

continues below


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Guys this book is a fucking shitstorm.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Biggest spoiler of the novel_
> ...



One word to this:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Mel

Seriously, she saw that he would get stabbed and seems to think that he is Azor Ahai Reborn. I pretty sure she will give him the Kiss of Life in Winds.


----------



## dream (Jul 1, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Guys this book is a fucking shitstorm.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Biggest spoiler of the novel_
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 






God damn it.  

Really hope that he gets brought back to life.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 1, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Guys this book is a fucking shitstorm.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Biggest spoiler of the novel_
> ...



Whoa whoa whoa hold the fuck up.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Didn't they say that Jon was indeed stabbed,but that he lost conciousness and that it is how it all ended?

How was he confirmed dead? 


And I'd rather he stayed dead than come back to life in a cheap way..and I goddamn adore Jon..


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 1, 2011)

Must resist urge to click on shitstorm spoiler. 

Two weeks to go... must resist...


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

Ciupy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon giot stabbed 4 times before he lost consciousness.
After that, they probably stabbed him some more.

If we are lucky, they didn't know where to put it and he got saved by loyalists.
Else, it will be Mel.


----------



## martryn (Jul 1, 2011)

Couldn't stop from reading the spoilers.  Sounds like everyone gets dicked.  Can't wait, now.  God I love spoilers.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 1, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We don't know about that.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Maybe he was saved in the nick of time from death but is gravely injured,maybe they came before they could blow the lethal strike.

I refuse to believe that all those plot threads that Jon weaved are severed.

I am curious how,at this point,he will be saved and if that missing dragon will come to him.

Also..Dany is screwed as well.


And Theon..I actually feel sorry for him..


----------



## Serp (Jul 1, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> It was mentioned in appendix I believe as well as few time in stories.
> When Targ's conquered Stormlands and destroyed the royal family there, Aegon gave that land to his bastard brother Orys who then created the Baratheon family.
> 
> The very reason Robert became King and not Eddard, Jon or Tywin is the fact that he had the highest claim to throne due to all this as well as the fact that Robert's Aunt was Rhaelle Targaryen.




It was Roberts grandmother that was Rhaelle not his aunt. But yes Orys was said to be a Targaryen.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

> It was Roberts grandmother that was Rhaelle not his aunt. But yes Orys was said to be a Targaryen.



Ups, I meant his Grandmother... forgot to double check the text ^_^;


----------



## Coteaz (Jul 1, 2011)

So much for Dance being another Feast, huh.


----------



## Sesha (Jul 1, 2011)

Arishem said:


> House Velaryon, who also carry the blood of Valyria, had two bastards as a result of an affair between Elaena Targaryen and Alyn Velaryon. While they're apart from the house, it suggests that there are still people walking around with the dragon's blood. Whether that carries any significance for those descendants asides from a cool story would interesting to know.



There was also the Targaryen bastard who founded the Golden Company. He might have some descendants running around as well.


----------



## abcd (Jul 1, 2011)

I dunno if it was mentioned under any other spoiler tage (dont want to open them till i finissh the book

but wow
*Spoiler*: __ 






The three eyed crow is bloodraven


----------



## Arishem (Jul 1, 2011)

Read this if you want to be spoiled about absolutely everything:  No, I'm not kidding.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 1, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> So much for Dance being another Feast, huh.



Music to my ears. That's all I need to know.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 1, 2011)

Sesha said:


> There was also the Targaryen bastard who founded the Golden Company. He might have some descendants running around as well.



I think the last one was killed by Barristan in his prime.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

The last Blackfyre was killed by Barristan I think.
Descendants of Non-Blackfyre Bastards may still be there.


----------



## Splintered (Jul 1, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




Never been a huge Jon Snow fan, but I've always supported him as part of the Starks.  So his death would still suck.

That and if the only POV on the Wall left as a Night's Watch perspective is Sam's, I'd not be happy.  I liked Sam well enough until he got his own POV >_>

Of course he could be resurrected by Mel, but if that happens I see it as a form of borrowed time, that he would die later anyway.  I don't see unCat living either.  That and I don't know why Mel would bother saving him, and if she did, it would probably put him under her thumb.

However, unJon would allow us a unique perspective on the whole thing.  He would be the closest thing to an Other with a POV as we could get.  But it would probably mean he wouldn't stay at the Wall.




I'm too weak and I gave into the spoilers.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 1, 2011)

Splinterfell said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



other's maybe do resurrect teh dead, but it is completely different from R'Hlor's magic. Jon would lose some part of his soul, but he would be a living being... while wights are zombies and Other's are a completely different race...




I wonder if we will get an Other POV in Dream of Spring?
No really...


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 1, 2011)

spoilers = awesome


----------



## Serp (Jul 1, 2011)

Am I the only one left who hath not given in to the spoilers? 


_Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my  death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall  wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am  the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire  that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn  that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I  pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all  the nights to come.


FOR THIS NIGHT AND ALL THE NIGHTS TO COME!
_


----------



## Splintered (Jul 1, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Am I the only one left who hath not given in to the spoilers?
> 
> 
> [/I]






Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't mind it.  But sometimes I feel like there POV overload and sometimes he adds characters that are necessary, but I just can't feel for.

*Spoiler*: __ 




Although I wouldn't mind an Aegon POV.

But as far as Jon goes, true he's more sentient, but I don't they come back quiet right, and I have a feeling R'Hlor's magic isn't so squeaky clean as to not affect him.  I find the coincidences way too appealing not to have some sort of affect on each other.


----------



## dream (Jul 1, 2011)

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> and I have a feeling R'Hlor's magic isn't so squeaky clean as to not affect him.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Perhaps that part that might disappear is the part of him that might prevent from killing an innocent being such as a future wife in order to create a powerful weapon.


----------



## Pineapples (Jul 2, 2011)

A bit tempted but the spoiler tags make me feel like I'm in a minefield


----------



## dream (Jul 2, 2011)

Pineapples said:


> A bit tempted but the spoiler tags make me feel like I'm in a minefield



Give in, you won't regret it.


----------



## Splintered (Jul 2, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Give in, you won't regret it.



Nah, he'll probably will but there's like, what, two weeks until they get the book?

No resolve is that strong.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 2, 2011)

So,for those curious about the bigass spoiler:


*Spoiler*: __ 



These are the exact words used in the novel to describe Jon's demise:


*



			Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air, the wound was smoking. "Ghost", he whispered. Pain washed over him. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...
		
Click to expand...

*
Hurrkk...


----------



## dream (Jul 2, 2011)

> No resolve is that strong.



Oh you would be surprised, I didn't read the spoilers for the last Dresden Files book despite them being out for two or so weeks.  Was highly tempted since the sample chapters the author posted promised an incredible book.  I just hope that no spoilers are leaked for the new book coming out at the end of this month, my will won't last a minute this time.  

*Ciupy*

*Spoiler*: __ 





He'll be revived.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 2, 2011)

Ciupy said:


> So,for those curious about the bigass spoiler:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



aww shit, not this throw the book across the room and crawl into a fetal postion sucking my thumb for two hours shit again. God damn it


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 2, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Oh you would be surprised, I didn't read the spoilers for the last Dresden Files book despite them being out for two or so weeks.  Was highly tempted since the sample chapters the author posted promised an incredible book.  I just hope that no spoilers are leaked for the new book coming out at the end of this month, my will won't last a minute this time.
> 
> *Ciupy*
> 
> ...





KidTony said:


> aww shit, not this throw the book across the room and crawl into a fetal postion sucking my thumb for two hours shit again. God damn it







*Spoiler*: __ 



Oh,I just found out that he was in public when it took place,and his allies were literally a few feet away from him.

He got stabbed in the middle of some unrest,and it wasn't an ambush where he was all alone like I thought initially..

Now his fate is in the hands of Melisandre I guess..


----------



## dream (Jul 2, 2011)

Ciupy, thanks for providing me some wonderful wonderful hope.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 2, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Ciupy, thanks for providing me some wonderful wonderful hope.



Oh,hope is all I have left,knowing good ol' George..


----------



## Serp (Jul 2, 2011)

@Splints Mine is!


----------



## LeafCake (Jul 2, 2011)

I have finally caught up and read all the books. They were good reads. Obv.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 2, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Hope? even if Mel brings him back all we got is UNJon, and going by Uncat, i'm not much looking forward to that...


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 2, 2011)

KidTony said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Not if he is Azor Ahai Reborn.

Also,this seems to be the end of his career as a member of the Watch.

He only took the vow untill his death,and guess what happened.

This could be a way of getting Jon out of that and onto bigger things!


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 2, 2011)

Ciupy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



There no chance for Jon to leave the NW. He will probably just make another vow XD

If he is Azor Ahai, his place IS with the NW. Not to mention that in ADWD he accomplished so much that it would be a waste to let it all fall into water.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 2, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



If he IS Azor Ahai,he has a bigger duty that will of course have to include the Watch,but he will have to basically make aware that the end of the world is coming,the Long Night,the Endless Winter,whatever,to all of the morons fighting in Westeros and beyond right now.

Also,I fully expect him to die at the end of it all,or at least sacrifice everything that he holds dear to him,just like Azor Ahai did in the past with his wife..


----------



## Splintered (Jul 2, 2011)

KidTony said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




I don't remember the specifics about warging, but couldn't he have warged into Ghost?

Of course, the problem with that is that it sends him on the path of Bran, and Bran's ability to warg and greensee better than everyone is pretty much his plotline.


----------



## Sesha (Jul 2, 2011)

The Imp said:


> I think the last one was killed by Barristan in his prime.





Nayrael said:


> The last Blackfyre was killed by Barristan I think.
> Descendants of Non-Blackfyre Bastards may still be there.



Yup, checked his name. Aegar Rivers, or something like that.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 2, 2011)

Last Blackfyre was Maelys Blackfyre, killed by Barristan in the stepstones during their reign of the king that came before Arys, i forgot his name but i don't think it was Egg (AKA Aegon V)

Bloodraven was one of Aegon IV (Aegon the unworthy) legitimized bastards (he legit them all on his deathbed). He was one of his 'great bastards' which means they had noble blood on both sides. They were four.

Daemon Blackfyre
Bittersteel
Bloodraven
Shiera Seastar

Blackfyre took up arms against i think Daeron the III (or was it second) becauses he married his dugheter/sister/cousin to some dornish guy and this girl just happened to be the love of Blackfyre's life. Bittesteel suported Blackfyre, but Bloodraven supported the king. Sheira Seastar was known to be a long time lover of Bloodraven. 

Anyway, Bloodraven and his ninja archers (the raven's thooth) mirked Blackfyre and his sons at the battle of redgrass field, and bittersteel got pissed and left the country, founding the golden company and vowing they would return to Westeros.

Bloodraven later became hand of the king, but i don't remeber what happened he ended at the wall when Aegon V came into power. He would later rise to Lord Commander of the Night's watch.

Anyway, Bittersteel and Blood raven had bad ass sayings.

Bloodraven : A thousand eyes, and one.(a thousand because he was like varys, full of spies and shit, and one because i think Bittersteel kicked his ass in a duel and tore out one of his eyes)

Bittersteel: Beneath the gold, the bitter steel. My favorite all time westeros house/company motto/saying right there.


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 3, 2011)

God its so hard to keep away from the spoilers... The book is so close....


----------



## Mori` (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm walking the net with a blindfold on till I finally get the book 

Then I shall sit half naked in a garden chair and read it for however long it takes to finish.

Well, provided it stays sunny


----------



## dream (Jul 3, 2011)

So I was reading the 4chan thread about ADWD and I stumbled across the following.


*Spoiler*: __ 






> >Jon says his wounds are "smoking"
> >Bowan Marsh has tears streaming down his face
> >smoke and salt
> 
> >Melisandre thinks to herself "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."





> "Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheecks. "For the Watch". He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hands away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.
> Jon Fell to his knees. He found the daggers' hilt and wretched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost" he whispered. Pain washed over him. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold..."





> “It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”



I'm quite willing to believe in anything for any possible hope of Jon living.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 3, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 





seems a bit far fetched, what kind of wound would smoke? You'd think GRRM would put that 'smoke and salt' prophecy to a better use, like you know, something burning or something. I mean tears are also a tad far-fetched, but a smoking wound? Why the hell would a wound smoke?


----------



## dream (Jul 3, 2011)

KidTony said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Which is why I said I'm quite willing to believe in anything.  

I could see Martin liking the idea of such an important prophecy having one of its conditions being fulfilled in such an undramatic way.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 3, 2011)

KidTony said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It was smoking as in the wound was steaming in the cold night air.

Pretty gruesome,but it happens when the air is cold enough and the wound is big enough.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 3, 2011)

Just so I know: are you guys still putting stuff from _Feast_ in spoiler tags?


----------



## KidTony (Jul 3, 2011)

nope, it's been like six years.


----------



## abcd (Jul 3, 2011)

finished the book finally 

Loved the book, had many good plot threads ... will leave the readers wanting for more

Big spoilers(allmajor things i remember which can be taken away from the books) 
*Spoiler*: __ 




1) Bloodraven is three eyed crow
2) Blood raven talks of two seers one with red eyes and one with green eyes sent to protect the earth ( We could assume that the red is Melisandre and green is green grace of ghis (i hope)
3) Bran is more powerful than bloodraven (he could talk from the wierwood trees (old gods))
4) Melisandre searched of Azor Ahai and constantly finds Jon snow and never Dany or stannis,She does not understand why.

If we add (2) and(4) then Jon snow might be Azor Ahai reborn

5)Jon snow is probably dead , If he is azhor ahai then he will be reborn in the nextbook ()
6) Dany had Pale mare at the end of the book ( a form of diahrhea which killed many in slavers bay) , So either Jon or Danny will be confirmed dead in the next book.
7) Aerys Targaryen loved Tywins wife.
8) Barristan the bold loved Asharra dayne and thinks Daenerys looks like her.
9) Ashara Dayne gave birth to a dead girl and so she killed herself( Barristan POV)
10) Aegon Targaryen is alive and is now in Westros
11) Cersei has lost the game of thrones.
12) Varys truly serves the realm
13) Arya has become Faceless but it looks like she is just trying to learn the tricks before leaving the lot.
14) Grayscale (a disease) might play a major role in the next book with two people in 2 ends of westros having it.
15) Victorian is a mad man :/.
16) Stannis and Mance rayder are apparently killed by roose bolton.




Three heads of dragon

*Spoiler*: __ 




1) drogon - Daenerys or Jon snow
2) viserion- Tyrion /Jaime lannister
3) Rhaegal- Aegon


----------



## dream (Jul 3, 2011)

abcd, my envy knows no bounds.


----------



## abcd (Jul 3, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> abcd, my envy knows no bounds.



In less than a fortnight we will be on a level and waiting for the next book


----------



## dream (Jul 3, 2011)

abcd said:


> In less than a fortnight we will be on a level and waiting for the next book



True, luckily I have Dresden Files to make my wait somewhat easier to bear.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 3, 2011)

abcd said:


> finished the book finally
> 
> Loved the book, had many good plot threads ... will leave the readers wanting for more
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Dany can't be killed by diarrhea.

I mean..no.

Just..no.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 3, 2011)

Ciupy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have just one word to say... actually show:


----------



## abcd (Jul 3, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> True, luckily I have Dresden Files to make my wait somewhat easier to bear.


Amazon screwed it for everyone ... I planned to finish book 4 by 12th and then move on to book 5 ...


Ciupy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




Shit happens  

The main reason why i think it will kill her is 
1) If was underplayed at the end of the book
2) It killed scored of people in slavers bay
3) Tyrion specifically states that drinking river water will get u pale mare and no one survived from that yet.


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 3, 2011)

abcd said:


> Amazon screwed it for everyone ... I planned to finish book 4 by 12th and then move on to book 5 ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Then what the fuck was the point of Dany even being in these books?

Just for a POV ?

What about her character arc that is still unfinished?

I mean,she didn't even set foot in Westeros yet..


Fuck it all.

For all I know,Martin will die before the next book is even completed..


----------



## abcd (Jul 3, 2011)

Ciupy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




See It is not confirmed in the books, She did not die yet, She just got the infection, It went something like this  "HEr stools were less and less solid,She could see only brown liquid after some time , she was bleeding but it was not the moons blood"

The point of her pov 
1) She is the mother of the dragons, She unleashed them into the world
2) She tried to play the game of thrones in the east and lost. 

The green seer is with her, she can probably treat her but i dont think so (since she did not treat anyone else till now)


----------



## Ciupy (Jul 3, 2011)

abcd said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yay for Martin!



*Spoiler*: __ 



..may he roast in the pits of Writer's Hell,whatever that is..


----------



## Serp (Jul 3, 2011)

Abcd you got the book, Germanfag?


----------



## abcd (Jul 3, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Abcd you got the book, Germanfag?



yes, I live in germany ( I got it from thalia not amazon though)


----------



## Serp (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't know what Thalia is though :/


----------



## abcd (Jul 3, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> I don't know what Thalia is though :/



Its a huge chain of  book stores in germany, Amazon is eating up its profits apparently


----------



## Serp (Jul 3, 2011)

So Thalia broke the release date also?


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 3, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> So Thalia broke the release date also?



I think few more traders attempted to use amazon.de's apparent breaking of deal as a reason to sell their copies sooner.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 4, 2011)

I wonder what GRRM has to say about it. I suspect he gets pissy like Stephenie Meyer.


----------



## abcd (Jul 4, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I wonder what GRRM has to say about it. I suspect he gets pissy like Stephenie Meyer.



any author would be unhappy about this... and he already knows.

( I thought atleast one other person on NF would have read it , Now I have no one to discuss >.<)

So yeah here is more info about the book (major spoilers) 

*Spoiler*: __ 




1) many spoilers claim that Aegon is aurane waters -- This is false
2) Davos is alive and is going to smuggle rickon from a cannibal island
3) Bran is going into the skin of hodor without anyone else noticing, In Varymirs POV (prologue) we find that this is considered as a major abomination by the wildlings and other skin changers.
4) Most of the story is set on the eastern continent with a lot of new places.
5) Arya might have killed Illyrio ( She kills a fat man with forked beard who insures ships in bravos so not really sure )
6) Daenerys is totally lost and utterly fails at politics, Ned 2.0
7) Tyrion might have contracted a deadly disease, Jon connington who saves him from the infected river contracts it and is slowly dying.
8) Tyrion proves that he is as good as varys or little finger in playing the game.

Melisandre seems to assume that Bloodraven and bran are tools of the great other

Religion and disease play a major role in the story
2 diseases 1) Pale mare, 2) grey scale

Pale Mare :  Daenerys got this at the end
Grey scale:  Jon Connington , Shireen and probably Tyrion Lannister

Religion
1) R'hllor: most important religion in the book, the priests are everywhere 
    a) with victorian
    b) with uncat
    c) with Jon (Mel)
2) god of Ghis     
     With Dany, (green grace)
3) Old Gods
     Bran and blood raven 
    Mostly wisdom of a million years and omnipotence
    Bloodraven knows about the existence of a red seer and a green seer authenticating the other 2 religions
4) 7
As of now useless as gods, the priests are controlling Kings Landing
5) Drowned God :
 As of now useless


Other interesting stuff:
1)We meet a man with webbed hands and feet, Its common in the Islands and a lot of people talk about merlings and mermaids in the book
2) Lannisters actually have affinity to lions as seen in cersei's flash back, Lion does not harm her.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 4, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I wonder what GRRM has to say about it. I suspect he gets pissy like Stephenie Meyer.





angry =p


----------



## dream (Jul 4, 2011)

> Most of those "lucky" 180 are keeping mum, to be sure, but there are always a few jerkwads in any group, and those are the ones who cannot keep their mouths shut.



abcd, you are a jerkwad.


----------



## abcd (Jul 4, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> abcd, you are a jerkwad.



Hey I put everything in spoiler tags calling them major spoilers  

I have nobody to discuss it with and now its boring 

Maybe i shud delete all my posts from here


----------



## dream (Jul 4, 2011)

> Maybe i shud delete all my posts from here



Don't do that.  

Is the following quote actually from the book?


*Spoiler*: __ 





> "The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. (!!!) Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. (/!!!) But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it."


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 4, 2011)

Well Martin is a jerkwad for taking 6 years on a half-finished book. 

Yes, the two are unrelated but I'm still pissed with him about this. He needs to write more and eat less if he will survive to book 7.


----------



## abcd (Jul 4, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Don't do that.
> 
> Is the following quote actually from the book?




*Spoiler*: __ 



yeah ... 


*Spoiler*: __ 



If u have read Farseer trilogy u might guess what might happen (atleast i guessed at this point and hope martin follows hobb)


----------



## Mori` (Jul 4, 2011)

motherfuckers I don't know why I keep looking at this thread it's a huge test of willpower 

It also makes me massively jealous TT


----------



## abcd (Jul 4, 2011)

u guys shud be proud that nf has a representative from the early book recievers group


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 4, 2011)

They are just jealous because you are obviously a superior being >_>
I mean... I have to wait till 26th July (when Croatian translation is released). How can you expect people not to be envious?


----------



## abcd (Jul 4, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> They are just jealous because you are obviously a superior being >_>
> I mean... I have to wait till 26th July (when Croatian translation is released). How can you expect people not to be envious?



Jaime has his sword, Tyrion has his brains and I have had my luck 

A spoiler free review of the book (very minor spoilers possible) 

*Spoiler*: __ 




The book is similar in pace to feast in pace but with characters liked by many. The story mainly revolves around Dany in esos and near the Wall. There is more magic in this book than all the other books combined, However the magic still remains mysterious and unknown. It might take some effort for some people to get into the meerenese storyline with completely new characters, but it proves satisfying with as much intrigue as Kings Landing. Some new dragons join the game lending credence to the name of the book.

Tyrion shines in the book more than the others closely followed by Ramsay Bolton and Jon snow. We get a little more background about the events that led to Roberts rebellion.

On the whole the book will be loved by fans of politics and fantasy alike. The book is not as fast paced as GOT or ASOS but it adds a lot of depth to the story paving way for fast paced 6 & 7 .

I cannot wait for the next one


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 4, 2011)

Yeah, I'll eat the book in 2-3 days and have to wait another 5 years for the next


----------



## martryn (Jul 4, 2011)

I guess I'm lucky in that I'll probably spend a few weeks reading it.  Course, I've read all the spoilers, so I know the plot.  Best of both worlds?


----------



## Sesha (Jul 4, 2011)

Someone on GAF from Sweden got DwD today in a book store. Had he said what city and what store my buddy and I could've driven there tomorrow.

fffffffffffff


----------



## KidTony (Jul 4, 2011)

hey abcd, what can you tell me about Theon? Is he redeemed even a little bit, did you care for his POV?


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 4, 2011)

BEST.IMAGE.EVER


----------



## Sesha (Jul 4, 2011)

HOLY SHIT

That's amazing.


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 4, 2011)

I honestly spent the last hour looking at it


----------



## Nathan (Jul 4, 2011)

abcd said:


> Jaime has his sword, Tyrion has his brains and I have had my luck
> 
> A spoiler free review of the book (very minor spoilers possible)
> 
> ...



I think there was a spoiler in that review that I would not consider "minor". 
But... I forgive you because it just made me want to read the book even more now!


----------



## Parallax (Jul 4, 2011)

I started reading the first book a few days ago and I'm already about 300 pages in.  If it wasn't for Anime Expo I would probably be further in.  I'll be picking up A Dance With Dragons the day it comes out and keep reading the series till I catch up to it.


----------



## abcd (Jul 5, 2011)

KidTony said:


> hey abcd, what can you tell me about Theon? Is he redeemed even a little bit, did you care for his POV?




*Spoiler*: __ 




U see ramsay bolton in his P.O.V., So yes it is very interesting. You will feel pity for him, A lot of pity


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jul 5, 2011)

Scans are out!


----------



## dream (Jul 5, 2011)

Nice I suppose, but I'll wait to buy the book.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jul 5, 2011)

You're right, the files are like 1gb for whole book.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 5, 2011)

abcd, who was your favourite POV?


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 5, 2011)

Waiting for the .pdf file


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 5, 2011)

Oh wow, scans are out? Might be worth picking up an HQ version and just buy the book later. Street date should have been waved after it was broken in Germany, very silly to still try enforcing it.


----------



## abcd (Jul 5, 2011)

The Imp said:


> abcd, who was your favourite POV?



It depends on the storyline, There were 3 main plots and 2 smaller plots, We meet X in Y's POV and Y in X's POV so I can tell u about my favourite charachter and fav plot but POV itself without reasons would be very vague.

If I should give a POV then its Tyrion


----------



## Corruption (Jul 5, 2011)

I love this series so far! Picked it up about 3/4 the way through of the show and now I'm over 300 pages into _A Clash of Kings._ Can't seem to put it down everytime I read it.


----------



## kumabear (Jul 6, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> Scans are out!


----------



## The Imp (Jul 6, 2011)

I downloaded the first part. The quality is kind of inconsistent. You'll have a few clear pages and then some blurry ones which are made worse because of the lighting.


----------



## Serp (Jul 6, 2011)

I was gonna download but Im waiting for a PDF, and if that doesnt come in time no matter since Im already buying the book anyways.


----------



## Splintered (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm waiting for the .pdf.  Oh, I'm buying the book too, but the wait drives me crazy (waiting for the paperback either way), and I always get pdf versions of my books if I can.

I can control+f to whatever I need :3


----------



## Serp (Jul 6, 2011)

Your gonna wait for the paperback 

I'm gonna buy the paperback later yes, but im buying the hardback asap. :3


----------



## Splintered (Jul 6, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Your gonna wait for the paperback
> 
> I'm gonna buy the paperback later yes, but im buying the hardback asap. :3



Hence .pdf file


----------



## Serp (Jul 6, 2011)

But im going for the triumvirate


----------



## abcd (Jul 6, 2011)

I like hardback more than paperback


----------



## martryn (Jul 6, 2011)

I like 'em when they're hard too.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 6, 2011)

i got the hardback and the audiobook comming on the 12th.. That shit better arrive on the 12.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 6, 2011)

KidTony said:


> i got the hardback and the audiobook comming on the 12th.. That shit better arrive on the 12.


August 12, here we come! 


And are we doing a grace period where discussion of the book still has to go under spoiler tags or is the thread just going to be a free-for-all?


----------



## The Imp (Jul 6, 2011)

KidTony said:


> i got the hardback and the audiobook comming on the 12th.. That shit better arrive on the 12.



Same but it probably won't for me. I got free shipping because my order was over $25 so it'll probably arrive on the 13th-15th.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> August 12, here we come!
> 
> 
> And are we doing a grace period where discussion of the book still has to go under spoiler tags or is the thread just going to be a free-for-all?



Once I get the book, I'm not going to even bother logging onto NF until I finish it.


----------



## Serp (Jul 6, 2011)

Well I wont be in this thread until I finish the book, which kinda means I wont be doing anything until I finish the book.


----------



## αshɘs (Jul 6, 2011)

Finished AcoK. Enjoyed it. The situation really looks hopeless, can't wait to start reading ASoS, which I hear is regarded as the best of the series.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 6, 2011)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> August 12, here we come!
> 
> 
> And are we doing a grace period where discussion of the book still has to go under spoiler tags or is the thread just going to be a free-for-all?



Grace period for sure imo.

I'd imagine most people will avoid all possible spoilers while reading and only pop up once they're finished, but it costs nothing more than a couple of seconds to wrap things in a spoiler tag and avoid anyone getting unfortunately spoiled. There's also a few people like ashes posting as they read some of the older ones for the first time and it'd be a shame if they walk into a multi-page discussion about how X event shattered them or something.



αshɘs said:


> Finished AcoK. Enjoyed it. The situation really looks hopeless, can't wait to start reading ASoS, which I hear is regarded as the best of the series.



It is, glad you're enjoying things! =)


----------



## KidTony (Jul 6, 2011)

James hibberd read the book. Said it was really good, and seems to think Theon's chapters were his favorite. He says he rates the series in this order: 3-1-5-2-4, which is just what i expected (So far i have the series as 3-1-2-4, and i didn't think ADWD was gonna top ASOS). Elio and linda from westero.org agree with him that the book is the third best in the series.


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 6, 2011)

My order is 3-4-1-2. So I'm hoping this is either before 4 or before 1 at least. I expect GOOD things from it!


----------



## KidTony (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm not in the camp that thinks AFFC was horrible, i thought that all things considered, it was preety good. Though i have no idea how you can put it over AGOT.


----------



## Splintered (Jul 6, 2011)

I liked AFFC personally.  Not the best in the series but I enjoyed reading it.

I think the big problem is that it was missing Dany, Jon Snow, and Tyrion and those are the fan favorites pretty much.


----------



## Serp (Jul 6, 2011)

Crows took me longer to read than the others but in the end I enjoyed it more than Thrones maybe.


----------



## abcd (Jul 7, 2011)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> And are we doing a grace period where discussion of the book still has to go under spoiler tags or is the thread just going to be a free-for-all?





Serperion Targaryen said:


> Well I wont be in this thread until I finish the book, which kinda means I wont be doing anything until I finish the book.



So no spoiler tags needed from July 12th?


----------



## Felix (Jul 7, 2011)

I WANT IT RAW FROM JULY 12 FORWARD


----------



## abcd (Jul 7, 2011)

I can prepare some images and post them on july 12


----------



## Mori` (Jul 7, 2011)

I decided to visit my Father dearest a little earlier than I had in mind just so I can be sure of being somewhere civilized on book release day (his silly village always gets mail at least a day late).

Upon browsing over the old bookshelf I just discovered I did still have AFFC having thought I gave it away in part of my grand donation to an adorable 2nd hand bookshop a while back.

Goodbye chapter summaries, hello last minute feast re-read.

---

also I love the reddit /asoiaf community, sometimes there's some cool discussion and links etc, and other times there's an adorable number of people who've overlooked things. Not realising the Kettleblacks were black and not back...you miss the whole joke then ><


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 7, 2011)

KidTony said:


> I'm not in the camp that thinks AFFC was horrible, i thought that all things considered, it was preety good. Though i have no idea how you can put it over AGOT.



AGOT only got really interesting for me after the second half. First half was very slow for me.


----------



## Splintered (Jul 7, 2011)

> n adorable number of people who've overlooked things.


I overlook pretty much everything. I had to be told Renly and Loras were gay even though a quick reread shows how obvious it was.  Half of the little details fly way over my head.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 7, 2011)

crazymtf said:


> AGOT only got really interesting for me after the second half. First half was very slow for me.



I thought the first half had some really great set up, iono I guess I like that kinda thing.


----------



## Pintsize (Jul 7, 2011)

You know what the best part of getting my Kindle today was? Seeing the price to download at only $20, instead of most retailer's asking price of $35. That, and the fact that I don't have to drive to get it now.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 7, 2011)

Question for abcd and please spoiler tag the answer:

Which new PoV from DWD was the most enjoyable to read? I'd appreciate just a name and no other spoilers =p


----------



## The Imp (Jul 7, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> You know what the best part of getting my Kindle today was? Seeing the price to download at only $20, instead of most retailer's asking price of $35. That, and the fact that I don't have to drive to get it now.



You can get the hardcover for $20 through amazon.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 7, 2011)

pretty much


----------



## αshɘs (Jul 7, 2011)

Started reading ASoS today. With only one chapter Jaime's character got more interesting and I'm sure there's more to come.

I'm also wondering if Arya's a varg too or her dream about being a wolf and killing their pursuers was just an ordinary dream.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 7, 2011)

All the other Starks sans Rickon and Sansa have showed warg abilities. And Lady is dead, Rickon being too young and/or no POV. It's safe to assume she is one too but has a subdued link due to the wolf not being with her for so long.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 7, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> All the other Starks sans Rickon and Sansa have showed warg abilities. And Lady is dead, Rickon being too young and/or no POV. It's safe to assume she is one too but has a subdued link due to the wolf not being with her for so long.



Yeah, IIRC, GRRM confirmed that all the Stark children are wargs.


----------



## abcd (Jul 7, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> Question for abcd and please spoiler tag the answer:
> 
> Which new PoV from DWD was the most enjoyable to read? I'd appreciate just a name and no other spoilers =p




*Spoiler*: __ 




I liked tyrion, jon snow , daenerys, theon .. in that order


----------



## KidTony (Jul 7, 2011)

^ lol considering that those are the four characters with 90% of all the POVs.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 7, 2011)

Catelyn has about as many POV's as Jon/Tyrion (who it feels like have the most in every book). She has the second most POV's before she becomes Lady Stoneheart. I would hate for her to have the same amount in the next book.

She fucking better not, even though she is somewhat more interesting now.


----------



## Pintsize (Jul 7, 2011)

The Imp said:


> You can get the hardcover for $20 through amazon.



Don't have to pay shipping and it starts downloading at midnight.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 7, 2011)

There are some non-spoiler reviews out. link    link 

They're all positive. Only negatives seem to be the pacing feels off in the beginning and you can tell that they rushed the editing at the end. Would you agree with that abcd?


Pintsize said:


> Don't have to pay shipping and it starts downloading at midnight.



Shipping is free. Only downside is you have to wait a couple of days.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 7, 2011)

0.99c delivery day after


----------



## Mori` (Jul 7, 2011)

abcd said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said new =p

as in which of the new PoV characters did you most enjoy ^^


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 7, 2011)

abcd, are you going to take a chainsaw to Feast and Dance and try to reorder the chapters into a single aurochs-sized book?


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 7, 2011)

The reviews I'm reading are between good to one guy a Time calling it a "masterpiece." 5 days...

Fuuuuuuuuuu


----------



## dream (Jul 7, 2011)

I don't trust reviews.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 7, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> I claim this 3000th post in the name of the House of *masamune1.*


sounds no better than Janos Slynt.


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 7, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Catelyn has about as many POV's as Jon/Tyrion (who it feels like have the most in every book). She has the second most POV's before she becomes Lady Stoneheart. I would hate for her to have the same amount in the next book.
> 
> She fucking better not, even though she is somewhat more interesting now.



They can kill her 10times over, it would always feel good


----------



## KidTony (Jul 7, 2011)

You know, i never get the Cat hate. She's not the most interesting of characters (even though i find her to have interesting character flaws), but very exciting stuff usually happens through her POV. We see the reach and the eyrie through her eyes, and all of what Robb does. Aside from one or two chapters when she was locked up in Riverun crying about her life, most of her chapters are full of stuff happening.

And i don't see Lady Stoneheart getting her own POV, if thats what you're worried about. If Martin needs to add a POV to tell us whats happening with the BWB, i hope he picks Gendry.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 7, 2011)

The stuff she's seen really has no bearing on how liked/hated she is. She's fairly annoying and whiny and most of her stupid decisions have colossal repercussions. To be fair she does give good advice most of the time but when she fucks up she fucks up bad. It doesn't help that she's been facing an uphill battle from the very beginning because of that Jon scene. With this whole Lady Stoneheart nonsense it's only gotten worse.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 8, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Well I wont be in this thread until I finish the book, which kinda means I wont be doing anything until I finish the book.


Oh, better idea: having a separate thread for DwD and then merging the two books together. The separate thread could have its own rules on what needs to be spoiler tagged.


----------



## Splintered (Jul 8, 2011)

Well, all things considered, she has a lot to be "whiny" about, her son is crippled, her husband is murdered, then throughout the story her family slowly dies around her (or has little hope for freedom).  For a woman who values family the same way Ned values honor, I'd say that is pretty much the worst thing you could do to her.

Although the kick the dog moment with Jon is hard to forgive.  But all together, she was a good mother who was smart when she needed to be, but the events made her desperate and a little stupid.  Kind of like Cersei, only not as much as a terrible bitch.  Also, I hope she kills all the Freys


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 8, 2011)

It was easy to forgive Sansa for her Jon hatred. She later admitted in Feast how she wanted to see him again. 

Harder to forgive Catelyn, who probably treated him poorly his entire life at Winterfell. 

Hopefully Bw/oB becomes more influential than they are currently if they get a lot of POV chapters. Otherwise, pfff.


----------



## abcd (Jul 8, 2011)

KidTony said:


> ^ lol considering that those are the four characters with 90% of all the POVs.



I loved all of them 



The Imp said:


> There are some non-spoiler reviews out. link    link
> 
> They're all positive. Only negatives seem to be the pacing feels off in the beginning and you can tell that they rushed the editing at the end. Would you agree with that abcd?
> 
> ...


the pacing seems off in the beginning cos the sample chapters have been ou for a while, U will be more interested from first if u read the summary on the book flap 

About the editing , The book does not feel like a complete book but part of a series (unlike GOT or ASOS)


Littlefinger said:


> I said new =p
> 
> as in which of the new PoV characters did you most enjoy ^^



*Spoiler*: __ 




Mel





Fenix Down said:


> abcd, are you going to take a chainsaw to Feast and Dance and try to reorder the chapters into a single aurochs-sized book?



No, U wont feel the need for it either i guess


----------



## Suigetsu (Jul 8, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> sounds no better than Janos Slynt.



Janos Slynt...

So has anyone gotten book yet? I cant wait to get my fingers trough its fresh printed pages and smell them while I read them. Its going to be a marathon of non stopping reading madness.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 8, 2011)

People are over-reacting to Cat's treatment of Jon.
While she would be a bitch today, in a Medieval society she has every right to be worried.
Even if Jon Snow is not a problem, his sons COULD be a different story. This is not your happy shiny rainbow fantasy: in Westeros, it would be nothing special or anything surprising if Jon's children slaughtered the Starks simply to get Winterfell.


----------



## abcd (Jul 8, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> People are over-reacting to Cat's treatment of Jon.
> While she would be a bitch today, in a Medieval society she has every right to be worried.
> Even if Jon Snow is not a problem, his sons COULD be a different story. This is not your happy shiny rainbow fantasy: in Westeros, it would be nothing special or anything surprising if Jon's children slaughtered the Starks simply to get Winterfell.



Like the Blackfyre Rebellion for instance .


----------



## masamune1 (Jul 8, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> People are over-reacting to Cat's treatment of Jon.
> While she would be a bitch today, in a Medieval society she has every right to be worried.
> Even if Jon Snow is not a problem, his sons COULD be a different story. This is not your happy shiny rainbow fantasy: in Westeros, it would be nothing special or anything surprising if Jon's children slaughtered the Starks simply to get Winterfell.



That has nothing to do with it. She doesn't like Jon because he's a reminder of the night Ed betrayed her. The one time in his life his forsook his honour, it was to lay down with another woman. She hates Jon because she sees him as a reminder of the fact that she is the second choice of the man she has fallen in love with. She can't bring herself to blame Ned, so she blames his bastard son. We have seen her POV several times and not once has she demonstrated this kind of paranoia.


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 8, 2011)

KidTony said:


> You know, i never get the Cat hate. She's not the most interesting of characters (even though i find her to have interesting character flaws), but very exciting stuff usually happens through her POV. *We see the reach and the eyrie through her eyes, and all of what Robb does. *Aside from one or two chapters when she was locked up in Riverun crying about her life, most of her chapters are full of stuff happening.
> 
> And i don't see Lady Stoneheart getting her own POV, if thats what you're worried about. If Martin needs to add a POV to tell us whats happening with the BWB, i hope he picks Gendry.


Thats the only reason her POV didnt suck.



masamune1 said:


> That has nothing to do with it. She doesn't like Jon because he's a reminder of the night Ed betrayed her. The one time in his life his forsook his honour, it was to lay down with another woman. She hates Jon because she sees him as a reminder of the fact that she is the second choice of the man she has fallen in love with. She can't bring herself to blame Ned, so she blames his bastard son. We have seen her POV several times and not once has she demonstrated this kind of paranoia.


And at the end of the story we will find out L+R=J 

So much hate for nothing...


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 8, 2011)

I typically always end up defending Cat. I don't really even like her to be honest, but half the hate she gets comes off as contrived at best. The scene she had with Jon was pretty shitty yeah, but it's damn fucking obvious that was a one time exception due to stress, and most of the time she probably just ignored him. What I don't get is why people blather on about her treatment of Jon being so bad when Ned was the one who started the whole thing by not telling her anything and actually threatening her about ever asking him about Jon. 

And then there's the people who go on and on about how she only ever caused problems for Robb. Ugh, lol? Did they miss the part where Martin went out of his way to show she was the only one who could have negotiated a good deal with Walder Frey? Where she tells Robb not to send Theon and ends up completely right, and had Robb listened to her the North would still have been his? Or where, yet again, she's the first one to come up with a solution with how to appease Walder Frey, when no one else had one?

Yes she fucks up, and fucks up colossally, but she's no worse than Ned or Robb, and actually offers solution that they never would have. I'm not saying people don't criticise both Ned and Robb, they do, but when they fuck up it's a tragedy or it's because they are too honourable, but when Catelyn fucks up it's because she's nothing more than a dumb bitch who never, ever helps anyone.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 8, 2011)

I think most of the hatred comes from he treatment of Jon. I think that's just a well written character flaw. People aren't just good guys or bad guys, they're a bit of both. Cat's not a bad person, she's human, and feels a lot of resentment, specially since Jon who was the bastard looked the most like Ned. 

Count me in with those that think that her outbreak was a one time thing. I think like Han Solo said, it was a product of stress. I don't think she was ever nice to Jon, but rather ignored him. If she was cruel to him regularly, that comment woudn't have hurt Jon, and i believe he made a note of how much that stung. And besides, Cat was never a cruel person.

Now, if you hated her because she's 'too emo', that's just stupid. Her son is crippled, her husband and father dead, her one daugher missing, and sansa married off to tyrion. And in casse you don't remeber, she never does find out that Bran and Rickon are alive, she thinks them dead all the way to when they kill her. Tell me that's not something to be 'emo' over.

She does make retarded decision. Taking tyrion was stupid, i think she realized that in the end. Letting Jaime go, i don't think she regretted, well she might have when all shit broke loose, but she did it for the right reasons.

I actually like Cat. I don't love her, but a lot of people have said they always hated when a chapter was over, and they turn the page and see 'Catelyn' there. I acually enjoyed reading he POVs. Aside from a chaper or two, most of her chapters were action packed or full of great scenes (the erye stuff, bitterbridge and renly, the whispering woods, king in the north, letting jaime go, karstarks execution, the red wedding)


----------



## Felix (Jul 8, 2011)

My Dance with Dragons book has been shipped from Play.com
3-5 days if I was in UK, but it will take a week since I'm in Portugal.

ALMOST THERE


----------



## The Imp (Jul 8, 2011)

I don't hate Catelyn but I can see why people dislike her. She's not very interesting, she can be annoying at times and she is incredibly frustrating. I brought up the Jon scene because it gives a bad first impression of her not because its the main reason people hate her, atleast I hope not. Catelyn just makes the most rage inducing mistakes.


----------



## Pintsize (Jul 8, 2011)

I used to not hate Cat. Then she tried to kill Brienne. 

Other than Stoneheart, the only character I genuinely hate reading is Cersei. I'm less than thrilled about reading Arienne (sp?). She's not stupid, or an evil bitch, but she got herself into too much shit with her father that I just... lose all sense of surprise when bad things keep happening to her. Of course, it is interesting to see what her father is up to (just read the book a year ago and I can't remember that gouty guy's name, haha). 

To anyone who's actually read the book: is there any development of Arya's story? Or Brienne's? If we have to wait another ten years to find out what the hell happened to those two I'm gonna be so pissed.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 8, 2011)

Arya has some chapters but Brienne doesn't. Idk if Brienne's situation is mentioned in any of Jaime's chapters though.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 8, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> I used to not hate Cat. Then she tried to kill Brienne.



Yeah, Stoneheart sucks ass and should have stayed dead.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 8, 2011)

A short, but great interview with George's editor Anne Groel, which sheds some light on the editorial process. 




> DANCE INTERVIEW: WITH EDITOR ANNE GROELL
> 
> Shawn Speakman: Anne, you have been with George R. R. Martin and his Song of Ice & Fire series from the very beginning. What does the July 12th release of A DANCE WITH DRAGONS mean to you both personally and professionally?
> 
> ...



very interesting bits, highlighed.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm guessing the two sequences he pulled out is the Dorne reaction he's talked about before and maybe something in the Vale?


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 8, 2011)

I am pretty new to the whole series. I saw a episode of Game of thrones... Then I saw the second and third. And I grew very very fond of the story. What prompted me to read the books was the death of Ned Stark, and how "Shit Just Got Real" that was. I actually heard about Neds death from the net, way before his death on the show. 

I have read all the book, which was a monumental task, but the books just drove me. I cannot wait to get my hands on ADWD and finding out what happened with Jon and Tyrian. Arya is always a great read as well. 

From what i surmise, The Starks are gonna be crazy powerful when they return. Bran and Arya seem to be on a mystic quest for power. Jon seems to have something special going for him as well. Sansa tho looks like she is getting a fast lane course in politricks and will probably be a schemer when she gets older.

I am on this series hard.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 8, 2011)

Yeah IIRC GRRM or his editor confirmed that they moved Sansa's chapters from ADWD to TWOW, so that's one of the sequences.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 8, 2011)

- short interview with George. He goes into his writing process a bit, but nothing much new. Says he gots bout 100 pages of WoW done, but he's not working on it at the moment, what with the book tour revving up and all.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 8, 2011)

I have been avoiding this thread for the past week or more to avoid any early spoilers of _A Dance with Dragons_ (how were those leaked, by the  way?), but I am posting now to say that I just finished reading _The Hedge Knight_ (in its original form, not the graphic novel), one of Martin's short stories set in the world of _A Song of Ice and Fire._

While the story was not as dark or complex as most of Martin's other books, that is to be expected from a story not nearly as long as the others from the series, and I still found it to be very enjoyable and entertaining nevertheless. Many of the characters were very interesting, but it is very unfortunate that they shall likely never bee seen again, as the story was set an entire century before the main series.

On that subject, this story was set during a time when House Targaryen was still in power, and I notice that Aerion displayed many traits similar to those that Viserys displayed in the present timeline of the story, and I would not at all be surprised if Viserys were a descendant of Aerion.

Also on that subject, nearly all of the major houses of Westeros were present at the tourney at Ashford, but House Stark was conspicuously absent; it was not even mentioned. Why might that be?

Also, on that subject, to return to the main story of the series, by the time of _A Feast for Crows,_ it has been twenty years since House Targaryen was overthrown, but they ruled Westeros for three centuries before that, so I doubt that all loyalty to them could have completely vanished in such a relatively short duration. Does anyone here believe that any citizens of Westeros, apart from House Martell, may still have secret loyalty to House Targaryen, and may even assist, either subtly or openly, Daenerys' attempt to reclaim Westeros? I believe that that would be a very interesting plot twist, indeed.

I also just rented _The Sworn Sword,_ the other short story by Martin, so I shall read that next and post my thoughts about it when I have finished read it, as well.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 8, 2011)

The Hedgeknight was ok, i knew Baelor was gonna die since no great tragedy had happened and since its martin i knew someone important was gonna die or some bad thing was gonna happened.

So i read that one, and the followup 'the sworn sword'. That one actually bored me. There is a third one, 'the mystery knight", i haven't read it but it deals with Dunk and Egg uncovering a plot for another blackfyre revellion. I heard we meet Bloodraven in that one.

There's also a 4th dunk and egg comming up, called 'dangerous women', in which they visit winterfell.

What i like about the dunk and egg stories is he history. Egg becomes Aegon V, the unlikely, and rules for over 30 years. Dunk becomes lord commander of the kingsguard. They both die at the tregedy of summerhall, where apparently Egg tries to hatch a dragon egg, on the same day Rhaegar was born.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 8, 2011)

> There's also a 4th dunk and egg comming up, called 'dangerous women', in which they visit winterfell.



I remember reading once how Winterfell was ruled by around 7 women since there was no decently old male ruler or something.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 8, 2011)

Do you guys think the last dunk and egg story will be about the council meeting that makes Egg king? I kind of want it to be the Tragedy of Summerhall but that seems too late in their lives.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 8, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> I remember reading once how Winterfell was ruled by around 7 women since there was no decently old male ruler or something.



The she-wolfs of winterfell or something.



The Imp said:


> Do you guys think the last dunk and egg story will be about the council meeting that makes Egg king? I kind of want it to be the Tragedy of Summerhall but that seems too late in their lives.



I think we'll know about summerhall before the series is over anyway. It would be awesome to have 1st person perspective, but like you said, waaaay to late in their lives--unless Martin just skips a gazillion years.


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 8, 2011)

If he can finish the whole series within a 7 year time period, I'd say that's fair. Of course I'll be almost in my thirties, so I hope I don't die


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 8, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Do you guys think the last dunk and egg story will be about the council meeting that makes Egg king? I kind of want it to be the Tragedy of Summerhall but that seems too late in their lives.


Too late? I don't think it will matter since they are still have adventures together. It would be nice, I'm interested in reading about Bloodraven. But again Summerhall seems to be important to what is going on now in the main story.


----------



## abcd (Jul 9, 2011)

I heard that ppl in UK are getting the book.... Will I have some company from here soon ??


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 9, 2011)

Anyone hear of the  
Just finished my re-read of Feast keeping an eye out for the clues pertaining to that, and ham if it doesn't check out, cause it does. 

Worst part of it is though, is that - remember how Jon wanted Sam to practice on his archery? Remember how Alleras was a Godly archer picking off apples in the air? 

The things that went through my mind imagining what would happen when Alleras/Sarella got to close trying to help Sam with the grip on his bow  . . .


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 9, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Anyone hear of the



I actually got that on my second re-read without anyone else pointing it out.

Probably the only time I've thought of a theory without having someone to tell me it.


----------



## Felix (Jul 9, 2011)

About the Dangerous Women

Martin already confirmed we will be meeting the She Wolves of Winterfell


----------



## abcd (Jul 9, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Anyone hear of the
> Just finished my re-read of Feast keeping an eye out for the clues pertaining to that, and ham if it doesn't check out, cause it does.
> 
> Worst part of it is though, is that - remember how Jon wanted Sam to practice on his archery? Remember how Alleras was a Godly archer picking off apples in the air?
> ...



For some reason I thought that was common knowledge :S


----------



## Mori` (Jul 9, 2011)

abcd said:


> For some reason I thought that was common knowledge :S



There's a lot of things I think of as common knowledge that aren't, but then again there's things others think of as common knowledge that I don't so it's a trade off.

Then again having spent more than 10 years as members of various asoiaf/fantasy boards by now I guess most things I missed have been pointed out for me


----------



## KidTony (Jul 9, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Anyone hear of the
> .



Not really a theory, more like an unconfirmed fact.


----------



## Felix (Jul 10, 2011)

So close
When I close my eyes I can feel the book in my hands


----------



## Coteaz (Jul 10, 2011)

Amazon probably won't get Dance to me until Friday. Meh


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jul 10, 2011)

Yeah Amazon is telling me that delivery is estimated at the 14th, despite me selecting the most expensive delivery option. And they're normally quite good about delivering preorders on release day =/

I don't mind that much though, it'll give me time to finish rereading The Darkness That Comes Before.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 10, 2011)

Someone on westeros just mentioned in passing that the gaoler that went missing on the night that Tyrion escaped was really the guy Varys pretended to be when he visited Ned/Arya overheard him. 

Holy shit, I can't believe I missed that. Was this obvious to anyone else?


----------



## KidTony (Jul 10, 2011)

amazon says delivery likely on the 12. Hope its true, i got the book and audiobook incoming.


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 10, 2011)

Getting it at Waterstones (UK) on 12th at 1/2 price.


----------



## Coteaz (Jul 10, 2011)

Amazon says...

Dance with Dragons has shipped.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 10, 2011)

I just finished reading _The Sworn Sword,_ and again, it was not as dark as Martin's usual writing, but still a very enjoyable story. I was actually very surprised that at the end, Ser Eustace and Lady Rohanne set aside their differences and married; everything worked out quite well for the protagonists this time around, which is normally so very rare in Martin's epic fantasy series. I wonder if Eustance and Rohanne had any descendants who may be alive in the present story of the series, or if they had a legacy at all. I also wonder what happened to Bennis, as he escaped at the end and never received and karmic justice for his actions; hopefully, Martin shall elaborate on his fate in another story. Of course, the greatest mystery of all is what fate eventually befalls Dunk, as this story is set almost a century before the main series, and I have noticed that virtually no mention of him is made in the present, so it seems to me that Dunk did not attain great fame, which I would find to be very unfortunate, as I believe that he is a truer knight and greater hero than many of the "proper" knights in the series, who often insult him for being merely a hedge knight.

There are now only two days remaining until the release of _A Dance with Dragons;_ I am so very excited, and I cannot wait to read it! I shall definitely obtain my reserved copy on my way to school on Tuesday, so that I can begin reading it as soon as possible and without any delays.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 10, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Amazon says...
> 
> Dance with Dragons has shipped.



God damn it, mine still says 'shipping soon'.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 10, 2011)

Amazon ships on weekends? hmm...


----------



## The Imp (Jul 10, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I just finished reading _The Sworn Sword,_ and again, it was not as dark as Martin's usual writing, but still a very enjoyable story. I was actually very surprised that at the end, Ser Eustace and Lady Rohanne set aside their differences and married; everything worked out quite well for the protagonists this time around, which is normally so very rare in Martin's epic fantasy series. I wonder if Eustance and Rohanne had any descendants who may be alive in the present story of the series, or if they had a legacy at all. I also wonder what happened to Bennis, as he escaped at the end and never received and karmic justice for his actions; hopefully, Martin shall elaborate on his fate in another story. Of course, the greatest mystery of all is what fate eventually befalls Dunk, as this story is set almost a century before the main series, and I have noticed that virtually no mention of him is made in the present, so it seems to me that Dunk did not attain great fame, which I would find to be very unfortunate, as I believe that he is a truer knight and greater hero than many of the "proper" knights in the series, who often insult him for being merely a hedge knight.
> 
> There are now only two days remaining until the release of _A Dance with Dragons;_ I am so very excited, and I cannot wait to read it! I shall definitely obtain my reserved copy on my way to school on Tuesday, so that I can begin reading it as soon as possible and without any delays.



What are you talking about? Dunk is referenced countless times. When Egg becomes King he makes Dunk his LC of the Kingsguard. Egg names one of his kids after Dunk. And they all die at the Tragedy of Summerhall. Brienne is carrying Dunk's coat of arms unknowingly in AFFC and Jaime references him in the White Book as one of the greater Kingsguard members.


----------



## Coteaz (Jul 10, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Amazon ships on weekends? hmm...


According to my email and order status, yes. Package departed 7 hours ago. 

Probably a special situation due to the hype and pre-ordering.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm just gonna go to Borders.  It's the same price as Amazon without having to wait to get is shipped to my house.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 11, 2011)

^Borders might not have some if you didn't pre-order 

Anyway, my order has officially shipped!


----------



## abcd (Jul 11, 2011)

One day to post spoilers without spoiler tags


----------



## dream (Jul 11, 2011)

abcd said:


> One day to post spoilers without spoiler tags



Make it two days so everyone can have time to read the book.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 11, 2011)

KidTony said:


> ^Borders might not have some if you didn't pre-order
> 
> Anyway, my order has officially shipped!



as long as I pre order by tomorrow I should be alright.  

I probably wont though


----------



## abcd (Jul 11, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Make it two days so everyone can have time to read the book.



U think ppl can finish that book in 2 working days 


Also I was wondering if everyone reading the book can post a chapter by chapter update here if possible


----------



## Mori` (Jul 11, 2011)

abcd said:


> Also I was wondering if everyone reading the book can post a chapter by chapter update here if possible



This is an excellent idea. 

But if I see anything being discussed outside of clearly labelled spoiler tags I'll have the poster's balls in a vice.

---

I have a dilemma.

Work deadline due for Wednesday.

Dance out tomorrow...

errr

fuck


----------



## Coteaz (Jul 11, 2011)

Multitask?


----------



## The Imp (Jul 11, 2011)

Looks like the Brienne cliffhanger is resolved in ADwD. It's probably in a Jaime chapter.


----------



## dream (Jul 11, 2011)

> Also I was wondering if everyone reading the book can post a chapter by chapter update here if possible



I'll do it. ^_^

Easy posts here I come.


----------



## Gooba (Jul 11, 2011)

So I'm only 600 pages into Clash, but I was wondering if anywhere there is a list of how many pages each narrator gets per book, I'm just curious.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 11, 2011)

Not pages but chapters. It's listed for each book. 

link


----------



## abcd (Jul 11, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> This is an excellent idea.





Eternal Fail said:


> I'll do it. ^_^
> 
> Easy posts here I come.



, waiting for them .


----------



## Serp (Jul 11, 2011)

Yakuza said:


> Getting it at Waterstones (UK) on 12th at 1/2 price.



 Yes Brother, did you preorder and get that free book as well?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 11, 2011)

The Imp said:


> What are you talking about? Dunk is referenced countless times. When Egg becomes King he makes Dunk his LC of the Kingsguard. Egg names one of his kids after Dunk. And they all die at the Tragedy of Summerhall. Brienne is carrying Dunk's coat of arms unknowingly in AFFC and Jaime references him in the White Book as one of the greater Kingsguard members.



Yes, I had forgotten about those references, so I thank you for refreshing my memory of them; that is a terribly anti-climactic and inglorious death for Dunk, however. I was hoping that he would die heroically in battle, defending those for whom eh cared, but Martin does seem to have a habit of avoiding heroic deaths, which is one of the things that I greatly dislike about his writing style.


----------



## abcd (Jul 11, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I had forgotten about those references, so I thank you for refreshing my memory of them; that is a terribly anti-climactic and inglorious death for Dunk, however. I was hoping that he would die heroically in battle, defending those for whom eh cared, but Martin does seem to have a habit of avoiding heroic deaths, which is one of the things that I greatly dislike about his writing style.



Dunks death was romantic, Rhaegar was singing about it all his life.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 11, 2011)

Parallax said:


> I'm just gonna go to Borders.  It's the same price as Amazon without having to wait to get is shipped to my house.



Preordered mine from Borders about 2 weeks back. Can't wait for tomorrow. 



abcd said:


> Also I was wondering if everyone reading the book can post a chapter by chapter update here if possible



In my excitement for the book coming out I actually thought of you today and how each chapter/event I wanted to talk about could be brought up here to discuss with you, so yes, I will do it.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 11, 2011)

lol, I was just scrolling back through to find the link to the dunk & egg graphic novels from a while back and hadn't realised how many people willfully spoiled themselves on dance.

I am disappoint =p


----------



## Borel (Jul 11, 2011)

Can't wait for tomorrow.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jul 11, 2011)

My order has been dispatched.

Woooooooooooo


----------



## Juno (Jul 11, 2011)

It just downloaded onto my kindle. Halfway through the prologue now. 

None of the American fans believe me.


----------



## siyrean (Jul 11, 2011)

omg omg omg omg! I can't wait anymore. I'm going to be at the bookstore when it opens at 9:30am filming for the podcast. damn it, why couldn't we get a midnight release party ><


----------



## Keigo (Jul 12, 2011)

A pdf is online.  I don't think that "buy it anyway" needs to be said but...


*Spoiler*: __ 



 This


----------



## KidTony (Jul 12, 2011)

well i'm just going to wait for some time tomorrow when it gets delivered.


----------



## dream (Jul 12, 2011)

My will is crumbling.  Barnes and Nobles opens in eight hours and I'll be asleep most of that time but I still want to download the pdf now.


----------



## siyrean (Jul 12, 2011)

you can also get the audio book on itunes.... so tempting since i know i'm going to get it eventually.


----------



## dream (Jul 12, 2011)

I love reading Jon's chapters.  

So yeah, my will crumbled like a tree hit by a speeding train.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm on Clash of Kings now.  I'm picking up Dance tomorrow even though obviously it'll be some time till I get to it.


----------



## abcd (Jul 12, 2011)

An observation (Spoilers untill end of Mels chapter)


*Spoiler*: __ 




In Mel's chapter we find out a lot about her, but here are some interesting points
1) She is immortal
2) She does not have to eat
3) she is always warm without any additional clothing required.
4) Extremely scared of the dark
5) strongest at the wall

Cold hands
1) Immortal ?(dead cannot die again)
2) Does not have to eat
3) Always cold, Does not need any clothing
4) scared of light? 
5) Weakest, cannot enter the wall.

Looks like they have some interesting parallels going on between them


----------



## Mori` (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm going to go pick up my copy in a couple of hours ^^


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jul 12, 2011)

Just got the book


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 12, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> Just got the book



I also just purchased my reserved copy, as well, and I have started reading it. I shall not post again in this thread until I have finished reading it, to avoid any spoilers. Hopefully, it shall not take me very long to read the entire book, but I do have both school and work today, so I doubt that I shall be able to finish it today.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 12, 2011)

Got it in my hands =)

Now to start the journey


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 12, 2011)

Just downloaded into my kindle. Sorry "IT" but you are going on hold for about three weeks


----------



## The Imp (Jul 12, 2011)

Just got it. About to devour it.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 12, 2011)

110 pages in:


*Spoiler*: __ 



The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. 

I hadn't expected Slynt to be done so early in the book (if at all), and especially not so swiftly. Kill the boy, become the man indeed. Jon's chapters have been fairly good, though it's jarring to see Sam in them. Got some chills when Mel ended the first one with "you know nothing Jon snow" haha

Tyrion chapters have probably been the most interesting so far, enjoyed hearing some Varys/Illyrio backstory and looking at Tyrion post-patricide. All the mentions of Tysha and wherever whores go is making me hopeful the tenuous links between the sailor's wife and tyrion + tysha resolve into something later. If the Griff Illyrio keeps talking about isn't a Connington I'll eat my hat. 

Happy to have met Quentyn, seems like an interesting fellow. I'm wondering if his friends plan to reach Dany involves enlisting with one of those sellsword companies to gain passage. Given what just occurred before he brings it up it seems the most obvious option available to them if boats are out.

Brans journey is giving some more coldhands goodness which is awesome, not too much there but I'd guess we'll start to get some more resolution as that goes along. It's fun to see his warging in light of the prologue.

Dany's chapter was a bit dull, a lot of the boring bits of governance, I hope her storyline picks up soon or I'll start to fear for it. The ending reveal of Drogon having killed a child was semi-interesting I guess.

I liked the prologue, lots of good information about wildlings and wargs alike, and of course the mass of wights was suitably...chilling.

Onwards!


----------



## Arishem (Jul 12, 2011)

Reading it right now. Someone is not playing the game, and I'm surprised that none of their _advisers_ are calling them out on it.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 12, 2011)

I just get to go and look at the book today.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 12, 2011)

Just got my copy.

*takes deep breath*

........

Its about to go down.


----------



## Arishem (Jul 12, 2011)

ADWD has more food talk than any of the other novels.


----------



## dream (Jul 12, 2011)

Jon's chapters were awesome.


----------



## abcd (Jul 12, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> 110 pages in:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



interesting, so u did not read the sample chapters before??



Eternal Fail said:


> Jon's chapters were awesome.



I thought u would give a more in depth analysis


----------



## KidTony (Jul 12, 2011)

got my copy and audiobook about an hour ago. 

And now, it begins!


----------



## dream (Jul 12, 2011)

> I thought u would give a more in depth analysis



I would have had I started writing a review while I was speed reading the book but everything just became hazy after reading Jon's last chapter.  

So much worry and hope has filled me.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 12, 2011)

abcd said:


> interesting, so u did not read the sample chapters before??



Only Reek, for the most part I didn't want to crack and spoil something I'd been waiting so long for.

---

220 pages in


*Spoiler*: __ 



Ahhhh I was doing a neat job of ordering my thoughts halfway through this portion of reading and then Brans chapter came along and was so awesome that I forgot half of what I'd thought.

For a minute there I thought GRRM might actually off the Reeds during that climb and Wight attack. Bran-dor was awesome, I'd been really hoping for a few things like that ever since he did it the first time in SoS. Meeting a child of the forest was expected, but I did like the description of her and the weirwood cavern place. The Three eyed crow was introduced amazingly, and holy fuck if his description doesn't sound a whole fucking lot like Bloodraven. Didn't see that one coming at all, daaaamn.

Davos chapters were nice, will be interesting to see what really became of him in White Harbour given what we were told occurred in Feast. Some good perspective on non-central Northern feelings about recent happenings.

Reek chapter was great, almost makes me feel sympathetic for Theon...almost. The Bastard of Bolton is a sick fuck. Looking forward to seeing where that plotline goes though.

Jon's wasn't too exciting, the burning of Mance etc all ended up feeling pretty straightforward, though I guess the thing to take away from it all is that he's certainly sceptical about Stannis being AA reborn.

Again I'm not too excited about Dany's storyline right now, though it was neat to see her getting a lesson from Barristan about the Stark's being morally upstanding folk, there's one for the DxJ shippers. Speaking of shipping, I got briefly excited when XXD offered her his fleet, but figured it was coming a bit early in the book for her to just up and set sail so wasn't overly surprised at her decision not to go. I'm surprised at how much she's fantasising about Daario, we'll see where that goes once he actually returns.

Tyrion's chapters were straightforward enough, Griff brooks no nonsense and most of it felt like familiarising ourselves a bit with the characters and country they were passing through. Feeling even more confident in saying Griff is a Connington after Tyrion signs off with a "...winged lions" in one chapter. Then again maybe I'm reading too much into it since that presumes Tyrion is confident in who he is as well.

Still, good stuff all round. Moooooooooore

ed: just remembered there was another random Jon parentage line tossed in somewhere. Ned x Fishergirl 4 life yo




Anyone discussing (or even hinting) outside of spoiler tags will be executed.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 12, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Bran II - pg 180_ 





So the Three-Eyed Crow is Bloodraven. Pretty cool. I heard there were only a few Bran chapters in ADwD so I thought their meeting would be towards the end but this is a pleasant surprise. 

Earlier they said they passed a lake but I didn't think they would already be that far North that fast. It's been like a month since they passed the Wall in terrible conditions but it feels like they made it there faster than it took them to get to the Wall.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 12, 2011)

So far I have read the Prologue and 1 Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Nothing too much to discuss at this point but I am loving the very endings of the chapters. Tyrion hearing about the dragon, Daenerys finding out her dragon ate a child and the best was Mel telling Jon the same thing Ygritte always told him. Jon was by far my favorite chapter. Loved his talk with Stannis and Mel and knowing he is getting more "wargish".


----------



## Yakuza (Jul 12, 2011)

got it. bye fuckers.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 12, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> Only Reek, for the most part I didn't want to crack and spoil something I'd been waiting so long for.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



 I'm sure it's common knowledge that Connington was exiled after he lost the battle against Robert. The Golden Company is primarily made up of Westerosi and the guys nickname is Griff. For a sharp guy like Tyrion who prides himself on his knowledge, he'd be able to put two and two together and come to this conclusion. Griff's reaction probably cements his suspicion. 

Dany's chapters are moving slowly and are a bit repetitive in nature, but it looks like Martin is just moving around pieces at this stage. Dany's situation just looks worse and worse each chapter. Now that she's made an enemy of Qarth too. She has her Unsullied and a rag tag of companies on her side with internal conflicts. The Golden Company and The Iron Fleet might fight for her but her situation still looks pretty bad. 

I think Tyrion will get her some more sellsword companies in Volantis by being Tyrion. But it's interesting to see where this conflict will go. Also I want Jorah to do something soon.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 12, 2011)

Just read the 2nd Jon chapter


*Spoiler*: __ 



Fuck yeah Jon snow! Cut that bitches head off. I always liked Jon but I have now gained a further respect for him. Loved it.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 12, 2011)

kindle and audible. good to go


----------



## Nathan (Jul 12, 2011)

ADWD 2nd Bran chapter spoilers


*Spoiler*: __ 



Wow, I think this is probably the best chapter I have ever read in the book series! Bloodraven, wights and even Children of the Forest!! Wow!! And less than 200 pages in!


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 12, 2011)

omgwtf, Roy Dotrice aged like 20 years since his last audiobook. Doesn't even sound like the same person. He sounds bored tbh, doesn't even put in any effort. I'm so disgusted. They just need to get Stephen Fry to do the rest.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 12, 2011)

Well, the thing I notice about Dotrice is that his Dani voice is waaaaaaaay different than before. She sounds like Ygritte. 

And roy didn't age 20 years, but he did age 10 

He was already old to begin with, and 10 years is 10 years.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 12, 2011)

I bought my copy today O:

now to make sure I read the others as fast as possible to catch up


----------



## Arishem (Jul 13, 2011)

Reek Chapter:
*Spoiler*: __ 



While I didn't care for him before, and still don't like him now, I hope Theon feeds those degenerates to a kraken. That is all.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 13, 2011)

I did say that I would not post in this thread again until after I had finished the book, but I had an idea. What if Coldhands, the mysterious ranger accompanying Bran, is actually Benjen Stark, seeking to assist what remaining family embers he has? That would finally give Benjen greater plot relevance, plus, now that this if the fifth of seven books in the series, having Coldhands be a completely new character would seem rather unusual to me.

If Coldhands' true identity is revealed in the story, please do not tell me, yet, as I am still very early in the book, as I have school and my job to consider; however, I fortunately have no class today, so I expect to make much progress in the book before this day is finished, so I shall be able to participate more thoroughly in any discussion of it very soon.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 13, 2011)

^ Coldhands = Benjen is an old and popular theory ever since he first showed up in storm.

340 in now, will post more thoughts around p.400.


----------



## abcd (Jul 13, 2011)

Reading the updates feel awesome , but scared to comment since my opinions will reflect the end of the book


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 13, 2011)

I thought about Coldhands being Benjin as well. Never knew it was an old or popular theory but it seemed fairly obvious in its plausibility.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 13, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> Page 240:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _significant spoilers_
> ...



up to 300 now


*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, I read a theory on Aegon surviving a while ago so I wasn't as surprised, plus the cover flap hints at it too. But it's a complete game changer so late in the series I wonder what will happen. I'm not a big Dany fan but I don't want her to meekly accept Aegon as the true heir and then marry him. I want Dany to take the lead like Aegon the conqueror and Aegon (and maybe Jon) as her two sidekicks/husbands/heads of the dragon like Aegon's sisters.

I wonder if Connington is really plotting this stuff or if he's just a piece being moved around by Varys and Illyrio. I hope he isn't just using Aegon for his own gains rather than looking after him as a step-father for his friend Rhaegar.

It's weird that Aegon's character feels so childish while he's older than both Jon and Dany who both matured early on. He's like 19-20 but reading about him feels like he's only 14-15. 

I also got to the Jorah introduction. I'm guessing he's going to take Tyrion back to Dany to get back in her favour or something along those lines. 






DemonDragonJ said:


> I did say that I would not post in this thread again until after I had finished the book, but I had an idea. What if Coldhands, the mysterious ranger accompanying Bran, is actually Benjen Stark, seeking to assist what remaining family embers he has? That would finally give Benjen greater plot relevance, plus, now that this if the fifth of seven books in the series, having Coldhands be a completely new character would seem rather unusual to me.
> 
> If Coldhands' true identity is revealed in the story, please do not tell me, yet, as I am still very early in the book, as I have school and my job to consider; however, I fortunately have no class today, so I expect to make much progress in the book before this day is finished, so I shall be able to participate more thoroughly in any discussion of it very soon.



I do think that Benjen is Coldhands but it's just a neat detail that GRRM has added in. From what we have seen of CH he's just a tool now who hasn't retained any of the personality of Benjen. It feels more like he is helping Bran because the Three-Eyed Crow told him to rather than to help his nephew.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 13, 2011)

The Imp said:


> up to 300 now
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



in response:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Aegon should only be a little older right? He was "killed" as a baby in 283 AL and Dany was born in 284?

I was a little peeved at Jorah stumbling into Tyrion, felt like a bit too much of a coincidence. Maybe it was a set up, I'd prefer that


----------



## The Imp (Jul 13, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah he's only 1-2 years older but I think Jon/Dany are 17-18 right now.

Yeah, Jorah doesn't seem like the type of character to go to whore houses anyway. I always imagined he would stick around near Mereen but he's managed to get pretty far away. 

Also these descriptions of Essos make Westeros feel like a backwater village. The Rhoyne easily dwarfs all of the rivers in Westeros. Towns in Essos are the size of Oldtown and KL. I wonder how big Volantis is and some of the other Free Cities. Or how big Valyria was at it's height. Qarth, Yi Ti, Asshai. I also want to know the 16 wonders of the world that Tyrion talked about earlier. I'm glad Martin is doing lots of world building in this book.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 13, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



The world building has been excellent, I definitely agree on that.

I've actually been finding it funny while reading the book how everyone's so obsessed with Westeros. It seems like outside the slave trade being a moral sticking point the free cities do pretty well for themselves, while Westeros has never been that glamorous outside of a few select areas and the main characters heritage. 





I'm at 375 now but might as well drop thoughts since I posted rather than wait till 400:


*Spoiler*: __ 



The Dorne x Targ storyline is really hotting up with Aegon taking Tyrions suggestion to go and land at Dorne. Who'd have thought the first Targaryen to land in Westeros would be male afterall. Doran is in prime position to wed Arianne to Aegon as well as his attempt to see Quentyn (who as suspected did end up with a sellsword company, though again I found the way they got passed on on their journey a little convenient) married to Dany. 

While the Targs marrying each other might have been a more expected route initially, I think a Targ/Dorne alliance like that would be exceptionally strong. Of course we have to wait to see how Dany feels about an older brother when she's the one with the Dragons, whether she'd be willing to step aside if Aegon claimed the throne yet didn't wish to marry her.

Poor Griff (I'll use Griff, Jon will get confusing with Lord Snow having more chapters =p) is going to become a stone man  Oh well, he looks set to go through with planting Aegon on a throne for Rhaegar's memory

Asha sex, hot. Guess Stannis finally came through, it seems likely it was in time to save at least some of the Ironborn. Presuming they won the battle I wonder how much that will shake up the North, I hadn't quite grasped the scope of that initially but there's so many major players in one small area there.

Dany chapters are still not really capturing my interest 

I think Jon only had a single chapter in this segment, having Wildlings on the wall was a pretty logical step but I don't see it working out particularly well in the end. At least there'll be some degree of backstabbery.

Anyway, time for lunch and then more!






abcd said:


> Reading the updates feel awesome , but scared to comment since my opinions will reflect the end of the book



Haha, you could share some mutual feelings of reaction I guess?

Yeah I see you lurking =p


----------



## The Imp (Jul 13, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Haha and people in Westeros want to go east and see the Great Wonders of the World and have exotic adventures to tell their grandchildren about. It's pretty ironic. I wonder how Dany will react when she returns to find Westeros isn't the fabled homeland that Viserys led her to believe. It's even worse now thanks to the War of the 5 Kings.


----------



## abcd (Jul 13, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




 Every civilisation considers itself as the most advanced, and we are looking from POV's of Westros so that is very human.

I found Dany's chapters pretty interesting tbh, I think its a harder task to sit on the throne of meeren than on the Iron throne for Dany So its interesting to see how she will come out of this.

Asha sex was pretty hot tbh


----------



## The Imp (Jul 13, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _up to pg 400_ 



Looks like the secret is out of the bag. Now that Davos knows that Bran and Rickon are alive, Stannis will find out soon. And then Jon too. Correct me if I'm wrong but GRRM is hinting that Rickon is on Skagos right?


----------



## Mori` (Jul 13, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _up to pg 400_
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the secret is out of the bag. Now that Davos knows that Bran and Rickon are alive, Stannis will find out soon. And then Jon too. Correct me if I'm wrong but GRRM is hinting that Rickon is on Skagos right?



re: your last point.

That was also my take on it.

cleared p500 and starting to feel like things are really ramping up, then I realised I'm only just over halfway through. This is going to be right up there with Storm in the end if it carries on like this.

Will post full thoughts before sleep later =)


----------



## The Imp (Jul 13, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _up to 430_ 



It's funny how Mel prides herself on her visions but always seems to misinterpret them. 

Also that Bolton father-son chat was glorious.  Even though I hate Roose for the Red Wedding he's starting to grow on me. Haha I think I might make a Roose set if I can find something.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 13, 2011)

I just finished 242. Need an explanation from someone please.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Who again, is Jon Connington?


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 13, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I just finished 242. Need an explanation from someone please.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Rhaegar's friend, Hand of the King, kicked Robert's ass but got his own ass kicked later by Robert and his allies at the Battle of the Bells, got exiled by Aerys for his failure.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 13, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Rhaegar's friend, Hand of the King, kicked Robert's ass but got his own ass kicked later by Robert and his allies at the Battle of the Bells, got exiled by Aerys for his failure.



Thanks for the info.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 13, 2011)

Bran's chapters just keep getting better and better. And Dany's more frustrating.


----------



## Nois (Jul 13, 2011)

I've just started reading the books. It's a shame I haven't been introduced to them earlier. Stuff's pure gold


----------



## Corruption (Jul 13, 2011)

Just picked up ADWD today, but it'll still be a while before I read it. I still have about 100 pages left of ACOK.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 13, 2011)

Nois said:


> I've just started reading the books. It's a shame I haven't been introduced to them earlier. Stuff's pure gold



Welcome to the Gray Side of the Force Bro B-)
Beware the spoilers here tough, everything pre-ADWD is left outside spoiler tags. AGOt TV's tread may be safer place till you read first four books.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 13, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _up to 500_ 



Theon should have cut Ramsay's throat out. It's sad seeing him fallen so low and act so pathetic. The last 2 pages of that chapter had me reading in disgust and all I could do was shake my head. Ramsay better die a gruesome death before ADwD is over or i'm going to be pissed.


----------



## Nois (Jul 13, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Welcome to the Gray Side of the Force Bro B-)
> Beware the spoilers here tough, everything pre-ADWD is left outside spoiler tags. AGOt TV's tread may be safer place till you read first four books.



I figured. It's so engaging that I might actually come down here pretty soon, considering it's spring break here now:ho


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 14, 2011)

Not spoilers: Where is Theon? Did Ramsay take him to the Dreadfort?


----------



## abcd (Jul 14, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Not spoilers: Where is Theon? Did Ramsay take him to the Dreadfort?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Lets just say  theon is a representation of boltons flag


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 14, 2011)

Time for some tired reflection on the book, right before some unearned sleep. I felt too many of the story lines ended... unfinished. Not that the story wasn't to go on, but that I didn't feel enough resolution to be as sated as I was for, say, ASOS.

It had me turning and turning pages, and was gripping, but could have done for a few more chapters. He's not quite suffering from Jordanitis, but I wonder how rushed a lot will seem if the series ends in two more books.

Some observations:

- Martin learned the word "leal" sometime after AFFC and before this one, and he really felt like using it instead of "loyal" as we say in previous books. Some others might remember the introduction of "nuncle".

-Dany did a lot of stupid shit. I'm not going to be specific, beyond 
*Spoiler*: __ 



chaining the dragons/general criminal dragon neglect.




-Bran and Arya have embarked on a journey to learn how to do cool things. It's just so slow... Will they be ready before the last half of the last book?

- Iron Island fleet 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 well clearly what Dany's own armies will use to go back. Victarion even has his own Dragon collection device (that will send them to Dany). There will be treachery ahead





*Spoiler*: __ 



Quentyn's story was quite hot at the end.




Final angry spoiler 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Fucking ending with a cliffhanger of being killed by moronic backstabbers? Are you kidding? My gut says he was killed, or near enough. Melisandre is like to give him one of those warm kisses. Then Jon Snow is no longer held by his vow, technically.

He should have seen through Marsh. The guy was just brimming with hate for the wildlings and even openly questioned Jon's vows. I believe he was also a contender for the LC position. Jon saw Ghost bristle as he and the builder guy walked past.




Fear not though. From the way it was written, the book should continue easily into the next one. To me, there don't appear to be any Meereeneese knots.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 14, 2011)

Dionysus said:
			
		

> He's not quite suffering from Jordanitis, but I wonder how rushed a lot will seem if the series ends in two more books.



I think the pacing is off at the end because last chapters were moved to TWOW due to size.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 14, 2011)

The only phrase that he uses that's starting to get annoying is "words are wind".


----------



## Sasuke_Bateman (Jul 14, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Does Robb comes back alive?


----------



## Arishem (Jul 14, 2011)

Finished it last night. I'd say this is my second favorite book, almost on par with ASOS, but the way some of the plot threads were handled and the behavior of certain characters detracted a bit from my enjoyment. The quality of Martin's prose and his characterization are as good as ever though. I'd say that two of the most prominent themes are failure and foolishness.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 14, 2011)

What I found odd so far was his use of "the little man" in Tyrion chapters. It is as if another character is narrating some of Tyrion's parts. Anyone else notice that or am I just way off?


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jul 14, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



So, does anyone actually think Daenerys is actually going to end up with Aerys? If she carries on that tradition you just know it won't be long before half the Targaryens are mad again.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Jul 14, 2011)

IM NOT LOOKING NOT LOOKING NOT LOOKING!

Right, i went on vacation to Egypt on the 10th. Couldn't get the books then and i still can't find them now because they aren't here yet and won't be for a while. 

So anyone have a direct download of the Ebook ? Preferably in EPUB format.

Please PM me the link, i don't have the courage to brave this thread again.


----------



## Akatora (Jul 14, 2011)

A good series

I gotta say "a feast for crows" is pretty hard to get through, to much Cirsei imo


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 14, 2011)

Just finished Jon page 382


*Spoiler*: __ 



I am becoming very interested in Mel and just everything involved with the Lord of Light powers and all of that. I want to know what is special about Ghost as well.....Assuming there is meant to be something specifically special about him.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 14, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _pg 550_ 



Holy shit. Did anyone else catch that Wyman Manderly more than likely killed the three missing Freys and then _baked them into pies and let everyone eat them?_ Jesus christ, that's just ice cold.

The South may be full of i*c*st and kingslayers and kinslayers, but the North is just fucking crazy.


----------



## Arishem (Jul 14, 2011)

It's like they say: Hard places make hard people.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 14, 2011)

Finished Davos page 394


*Spoiler*: __ 



My favorite chapter of the book so far. Fantastic! I am pretty sure everyone knew or thought Davos was alive so that wasn't a surprise but the plotting of Manderly and the potential return of Rickon with Shaggydog is just.....Awesome. I am also glad to see some of the tide swing back to Stannis. I am not necessarily rooting for him but I wanted things more evened out and they are coming to that.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 14, 2011)

finished the book, should be studying for exams :-/


*Spoiler*: __ 



Time travel martin, really?
I mean, I wanna go camp with the targaerians too, but this is not that good baby.
Also did not need that lesbian arya scene
Ned's skull becoming a talking white walker made me cum buckets



Although in retrospective, they both explain so much
Cool book though. SoS level

**


----------



## Mori` (Jul 14, 2011)

Finished it up, good read all in all, well up there. A few gripes about the way some plot points resolved themselves, but plenty of satisfaction too.

Will ramble on specifics tomorrow or something.


----------



## Sho (Jul 14, 2011)

Someone is picking up the book for me today, so I'm really looking forward to getting into it. Just did a quick browse-through on the last couple of pages here though and while I'm not worried on this being a great entry to the series, something tells me I'll be quite conflicted regarding certain events/characters (especially since this book is meant to focus on most of my favorite characters unlike the last which only had a couple).


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 14, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



So, anyone else think the letter that Ramsay wrote to Jon claiming he destroyed Stannis' army is bullshit?


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 14, 2011)

I only just got the book to read. I hope there is much Arya, Dany and Tyrion ! :33

Oh I can't wait to read tonight! It will be an awesome read, I just know it!


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm taking my time, about 1/3 of the way through. So far, meh. 

Hope something important happens soon.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 15, 2011)

Most of the way through the book now.

The entire sequence in the North has been much, much better than the rest of the book.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 15, 2011)

An interesting parallel with Mel:


*Spoiler*: __ 



That red priest heading to Dany. Now that guy can properly interpret the flames...

Though, in her defence, Mel is sticking by Jon because, in part, she has visions of him so often now. Jon is more important than Stannis and R'hllor is really letting her know. The line about him being a man, then wolf, then man again seems to me to be heralding his death and rebirth. For a brief him he'll be Ghost, then Mel will give a kiss.

Incidentally, this might alter Jon's susceptibility to fire and it seemed to to Dondarrion. (His blood _caused_ fire.)






Nayrael said:


> I think the pacing is off at the end because last chapters were moved to TWOW due to size.


I hope that's the case. Though how things are hanging in some POVs (which would be a consequence of shifting chapters ahead) is really annoying. 

Some predictions:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Arya is doing her apprenticeship in Westeros, or, at least, that's where the master is headed first. Perhaps the Faceless are taking a hand against Tommen, paid by the Iron Bank. They know that, should Stannis honour the debt to the Iron Bank or Braavos, weakening the rule of Tommen (et al.) in the North to help put Stannis in a strong position is vital. The marriage of Ramsay and "Arya" would be widely publicized and... the real Arya undermines that. Of course, other work will be done, mostly with the face she's to have, but being who she is is a very helpful against Tommen's supporters. She will go to the South though, and with the priest who met with her and questioned her (and knew she is Arya Stark).

Arya being another pretty face could have her going to a court or such. The role will have her being enticing to someone. 

The three riders are Dany, Aegon and Jon. Despite Tyrion's hopes--and theories that he's a Targaryen bastard--I don't think he's the third. The tragic heroism of Quentyn Martell shows the fate of those who dream of riding but don't have the... mojo.

Dany will arrive to finish the fight between the Golden Company/Dorne vs. the Tyrells/Tommen's crew. Varys really helped out here, seeding suspicion on one side, but the dragons will settle things.

Jon will have died and been reborn. He will continue the fight and, eventually, unite the North. He was about to head off to Winterfell and I think he still will. If he died, he becomes unbound by the vows. The Watch will still follow him when he's at the Wall, but he commands more than just them. Stannis will die, a Stark (Rickon, most likely) will become King in the North and kneel to Dany/Aegon.

We see how Jon struggles with the vow to keep out of politics and political warfare. He's rather good at it, at least compared to Stannis, who doesn't understand the North and just isn't a very good ruler. Jon gets out of the vow (in his Brothers' eyes) and... very likely rejoins the Watch later.

Littlefinger may try wedding Aegon with Sansa, and offer the Vale to seal the deal. It also helps convincing the North he's king too, at least, that's the argument. Depending on how well the Golden Company and ought else are doing, he might consider. Doran Martell will also going that game, offering his daughter. Dorne is more likely to join his side regardless. Aegon wants his aunt though.

In fact, I can see Mace Tyrell hedging with that game too, but it's certainly harder for him. By the time he'd consider it there will be bad blood. The suspicions against Margaery might remain too, as Kevan noted.

Next book we will see Howland Reed. I think he will go south and tell Aegon/Dany of Jon. Similar to Jojen, Howland has a role to play foreseen in green dreams.

I think it goes without saying that the Bastard of Bolton is full of shit. He used Mance's name to lend weight to the lies that Stannis's army was defeated and Stannis dead.


----------



## abcd (Jul 15, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> Finished it up, good read all in all, well up there. A few gripes about the way some plot points resolved themselves, but plenty of satisfaction too.
> 
> Will ramble on specifics tomorrow or something.


End of book spoilers

*Spoiler*: __ 




So do u think Dany is going to die in the next book


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 15, 2011)

abcd said:


> End of book spoilers
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Why would she die?


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 15, 2011)

Up to page 500 now


*Spoiler*: __ 



Was really hoping Theon cut up Ramsay when he had the chance. Hopefully something good will come of this. I actually really enjoyed that chapter though. Kind of a light suspense the entire time that reminded me of the Red Wedding. I thought maybe Manderly would do something or as I mentioned, Theon.


----------



## abcd (Jul 15, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Why would she die?




*Spoiler*: __ 




the bloody flux


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 15, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> ^ Coldhands = Benjen is an old and popular theory ever since he first showed up in storm.



I had actually completely forgotten about Coldhands until I read the first of Bran's chapters in _A Dance with Dragons,_ so that is why I asked that question only just now. 

I am still only early into the book, having just finished a Daenerys chapter that ended on page 305, but I absolutely had to post and speak my opinions.
*Spoiler*: __ 



I was so very mad that Mance Rayder died claiming he was innocent and begging for mercy. He should have died proud and defiant, as would have been befitting of someone of his position and status. I am very angry with Martin for making him into a coward as he died. I also was very mad that the Horn of Joramun was never sounded, and that we, the audience, never had a chance to witness its true power, if it had any. I also am very mad that no one would lend assistance to Davos, that the Freys have the audacity to portray themselves as the heroes and the Starks as the villains, and that everyone else apparently believed that deception. Hopefully, the girl, Wylla, who spoke in defense of Davos, will not be killed, maimed, or sent away to a place where she cannot speak against the Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters, and speaking of her, I found the manner in which the others treated her to be absolutely despicable. I also dislike that Tyrion is still thinking of Tysha, despite the many years that have passed since their brief marriage; I definitely believe that his obsession with her may prove to be his undoing. However, among all the things that raised my ire, there were several things that pleased me greatly. First, the death of Janos Slynt; I never liked him very much, and I was pleased to see Jon dispatch him, as Slynt would continually plot against Jon regardless of what Jon did to make amends. Second, that Bran finally located the Three-Eyed Crow, who will teach him how to fly now that he cannot walk greatly pleased me, as it is good to see Bran finally make some progress after all his suffering. Third, the fact that young Griff was actually Aegon Targaryen, Prince Rhaegar's son, who had been switched with another infant, who was killed by Gregor Clegane. That was a very surprising twist that I did not at all expect. Now, a subject about which I have mixed feelings: I see that Daenerys has numerous potential suitors seeking her as a wife, but I wonder who shall choose, if any? Whatever choice she makes will likely have repercussions both positive and negative, so I hope that she chooses wisely.


Overall, I am enjoying the book most thoroughly thus far, so I hope that it continues to entertain and prove itself worthy of the six-year wait. I hope to finish it soon, so that I can properly engage in conversation about it with everyone else here.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 15, 2011)

abcd said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I thought that she had a miscarriage personally. ?When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" was covered by Quentyn Martell, and the other parts may have come to pass aswell.

But yeah, that works too.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 15, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




I also lent towards miscarriage. There's a lot of prophecy pieces that arguably could have come to pass.

_When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east_

Quentyn was born in the West and died in the East, as prince of Dorne he was the Sun's son.

_When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. _

Dany at the end is in the Dothraki sea noting how all the grass is going dry and the ground is parched. The mountains may refer to the pyramids of Meereen.

_"When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."_

I would presume a miscarriage might fullfil this, I suppose that depends on your definition of when a child is living or not? Mayhaps this part hasn't come to pass.

Still, there's some interesting options there. I tend to think the flux-like symptoms were a red herring and just a result of the berries after all?

---

The chances of Dany actually dying next book are about as likely as the chances of Jon being/staying dead =p


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 15, 2011)

abcd said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No.


*Spoiler*: __ 



She was sick and suffering from the monthly tormentor to many women. It's more likely she's getting her period once more. It's a heavy flow, perhaps because it's been so long. I don't think it was a miscarriage, as this would imply that her womb was functional after Mirri Maz Duur worked her magic.



> When she brought her fingers to her face, she could smell the blood on them. _Am I dying?_ Then she saw the pale crescent moon, floating high above the grass, and it came to her that this was no more than her moon blood.



The diarrhoea is there just to disgust you and throw you off.  

She mentioned what that witch told her a couple times in the book. I don't think she did that in previous novels, not so much. I think Martin did that to make sure the theme and reference was in there. (Along with her being horny/getting married.)

Perhaps one can read over events and see that Mirri Maz Duur's words were met, in some strange way. Dany was at a dry "sea", or at least the edge of it. And, in a way, Drogo returned. Or, rather, a part of his old khalasar taken by Jhaqo. Mountains flowing like leaves in the wind could be Dany riding through the clouds or something. And the sun rising in the west and setting in the east could be Drogon passing overhead. It mentions he flew over her and off somewhere to the west, at one point. It's more likely Quentyn dying, as LF mentions.

In any case, I doubt she would have been standing at the end if it were the bloody flux.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 15, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _First Chapter from "The Lost Lord's" Point-of-View_ 



I see that Griff, or Jon Connington, is distrustful of Tyrion. Why do so many people no trust him, or believe that he is wicked and manipulative? How can they not see that he often speaks very wise words, as he did to Young Griff, who is actually the presumed-dead Aegon Targaryen? Are they that strongly biased against dwarves, that they shall not be rational, even when Tyrion has a valid point? I also believe that Connington is taking too great a risk in revealing Aegon's identity so soon, as the prince shall be in grave danger if he does so. I also forgot to mention before that I actually am starting to sympathize with Reek, who was once Theon Greyjoy. He was very cruel, but Ramsay Bolton is far worse, and I am very disturbed by the fact that Reek now actually believes himself to be Bolton's creature and deserving of the treatment that he is receiving. I hope that he regains his pride and defies Bolton, even if Bolton kills him for it, as I believe that it is better to die proudly and heroically than live miserably and cowardly.


On that subject, why are certain characters referred to by name at the beginning of each chapter, while others are referred to by titles? Are the more major characters those who are referred to by name?


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 15, 2011)

The Lannisters are known to be treacherous/power hungry and there are notable dishonourable acts, like Jaime killing Aerys, Lannister men killing the Rhaegar's kids (ha), raping Elia, Tywin doing this backhandedly by tricking Aerys into opening the city gates. There is bad blood between Lannisters and Targaryens. Similarly Starks and Lannisters. 

Blood, worthiness and honour seem to run together in the books. Hell, it's one of the foundation of Westeros's political system and it tends to keep their kids in power and the peasants stay peasants. Most of it is bullshit, but Martin does give the idea some legitimacy. As with king's blood having powers, waking dragons, etc.


*Spoiler*: __ 



It's no wonder Tyrion isn't trusted. He doesn't much help his case. Mocking and japing. He even lies that he killed his nephew. Griff especially is in a tough political spot. It can go very wrong if he trusts the wrong man. And... why trust a Lannister? One known to be Hand to an enemy king? I think it's only when you get both dialogue and inner voice that you can wonder why he's not trusted, despite how smart his advice may be. (It could be folly for Aegon to take Westeros without Dany.

As far as I know, they haven't revealed Aegon's identity to anyone outside the Golden Company. That's the impression I got from the epilogue...




The chapters use vague names mostly to keep the POV identity... well, vague. It's also used as a means to signify changes in character and such. For instance, the transformation of Reek.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 15, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Page 319_ 



I am pleased to see that Theon (Reek) did indeed recognize the false Arya as Jeyne Pool, as many people had predicted, and I was especially glad that he was sufficiently wise to not shout that fact aloud for everyone to hear. I hope that he uses that information to his advantage and the Bolton's disadvantage, somehow. I also see that young Aegon has decided to travel to Westeros and reclaim the Iron Throne himself, without the assistance of Daenerys. I am certain that if Robert Baratheon was able to rally supporters and become king, he can, as well, but judging from Martin's past of cutting short such plans, most notably with the Red Wedding and Doran foiling Arianne's plans, I worry greatly for Aegon's life. I am not saying that it is guaranteed that he shall die, but I am also saying that it is not guaranteed that he shall live, either.


----------



## αshɘs (Jul 15, 2011)

Finished ASoS today. Brilliant. Littlefinger, you're one cool bastard...

I'm going to put AFFC on a hold. I need some rest from all this plotting and backstabbing (and so do the Starks ). And if I read it right, AFFC and ADWD are basically the same book cut in half?


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 15, 2011)

Just half of ADWD happens at teh same time as AFFC. The other half happens after and has few POV's from AFFC.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 15, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Ashara Dayne_ 



  Selmy said she killed herself because of grief for her stillborn child but I don't buy that. Anybody else think that it was really her child used as a replacement for Aegon during the Sack of KL. The baby's skull being unrecognizable couldn't be predicted so they needed a child that looked like a Targ to be safe. And Selmy does say there is a resemblance between Ashara and Dany. 

If this is true do you believe the child was Ned's? All the best lies have a sprinkle of truth in them.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 15, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> An interesting parallel with Mel:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



 There are already so many similarities between Jon and Fitz.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 15, 2011)

This is not a major spoiler, so I do not need to cover it, but did anyone notice, on page 325, Martin makes a reference to Monty Python when Beans says, "[they] don't run when you fart in their general direction."? I found that (the reference, not the actual vulgar words, as I do not like vulgarity) to be very humorous.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 15, 2011)

It finally came today! That prologue


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 15, 2011)

Just finished page 617


*Spoiler*: __ 



I want to know who Abel and these girls are. Pretty interesting ending to the chapter.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 15, 2011)

So then, Tywin's legacy amounted to shit. Ned's, not so much. Funny how that turned out.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 15, 2011)

646


*Spoiler*: __ 



So Brienne is still around eh? And leading Jaime into a trap. Another interesting thread I am eager to see the ending of. Hopefully we learn what actually happened to her when she was supposedly being hanged.


----------



## Arishem (Jul 15, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> So then, Tywin's legacy amounted to shit. Ned's, not so much. Funny how that turned out.


It makes me wonder if the fact that his corpse turned bad so quickly was more than simply botched or negligent preparations.


----------



## abcd (Jul 15, 2011)

The Imp said:


> There are already so many similarities between Jon and Fitz.



I hope this is not a repeat of farseer triology


----------



## masamune1 (Jul 15, 2011)

_ASoIaF_ has always had a lot of _Farseer_ stuff in it, or even _Realm of the Elderlings_ in general. When I started reason _Ship of Magic,_ first person Althea made me think of was Arya, and then you've got her sister who is pretty similar to Sansa. There is a lot owed to Robin Hobb in these stories.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 15, 2011)

Well, Hobb and Martin started their efforts around the same time, and both play upon the similar tropes so its hard to say who owes the other what. Their muse is likely the same. Though, I think Arya and Sansa came before the Vestrit daughters. 

Got done with Jon II just now, page 110 or something. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Need to take a breather after that one. That ending was fitting, Stark sword swinging honor and all that happened with the Ned betrayal, and especially where the running theme in the chap was _Kill the boy_. If only it were Joffrey or Cercei in Slynt's place.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 15, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> _ASoIaF_ has always had a lot of _Farseer_ stuff in it, or even _Realm of the Elderlings_ in general. When I started reason _Ship of Magic,_ first person Althea made me think of was Arya, and then you've got her sister who is pretty similar to Sansa. There is a lot owed to Robin Hobb in these stories.



The first 3 books of ASoIaF were published around the same time as Hobb's Farseer/Liveship Traders/Tawny Man trilogies, so I'm not exactly sure who was influenced by who.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 16, 2011)

abcd said:


> I hope this is not a repeat of farseer triology


please to god I hope not.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 16, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _Ashara Dayne_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



That would make sense. The ruse would need a convincing child to be believed. If true, I wonder how much Ned would have been told. I imagine he would have known of Ashara being pregnant and would want to see the child. Grief ensues.

Ned could have known and kept his mouth shut. He's known for not wanting kids assassinated. Somehow I doubt he was told and perhaps argued rather heatedly with the mother.

It's sad that Selmy wasn't trusted. We'll have to learn the truth of this from Connington and Aegon. I'm surprised Tyrion didn't ask, actually.






Cyphon said:


> Just finished page 617
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Mance and the spearwives he took south. Pretty clear if you remember Mance's backstory. Hell, I knew he was going to show up as a bard while the idea of him going to Winterfell was talked of in Mel's quarters.






Cyphon said:


> 646
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Prepare to wait years. A few POVs end with us shoved off a cliff, hanging onto a bunch of grass. Long Dothraki sea grass.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 16, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _Ashara Dayne_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm leaning towards the possibility of it having been Brandon's after some of the info we got from Lady Dustin about Bradon's attitudes to sex. It never seemed that Neddish to knock someone noble up and not follow through with the consequences, though I'd not deny the possiblity outright.

Whether the child is truly dead or not who knows, I'm not sure how the timeline stacks up for a switcheroo. There's always the possibility that Aegon died as we were told and the child Aegon is a fake himself. It's just as plausible that Varys took a child with similar colouring for insurance in whatever he was planning than that he swapped them around before the sack happened.




A few things from little text snippets in the book


*Spoiler*: _The Good_ 



_"The North remembers"_ and the realisation that Manderly baked the missing Freys into the pies he fed everyone at the wedding feast.





*Spoiler*: _The Bad_ 



_"You took me unawares, my lord. I was not told of your coming."
"And I seem to have prevented yours." Jaime smiled at the woman in the bed._

So cheesy rofl 





*Spoiler*: _The Ugly_ 



The realisation that along with having been broken and flayed Theon's probably been gelded by Ramsay too. He did some nasty stuff himself but eugh, mutilation and torture on the level he's gone through is hideous.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 16, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



If Aegon is fake, he'll likely be burnt to cinders by a dragon sooner or later.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 16, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Mance and the spearwives he took south. Pretty clear if you remember Mance's backstory. Hell, I knew he was going to show up as a bard while the idea of him going to Winterfell was talked of in Mel's quarters.



I actually realized it when the one called them "kneelers". I was slow on the uptake but did end up figuring it out. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Prepare to wait years. A few POVs end with us shoved off a cliff, hanging onto a bunch of grass. Long Dothraki sea grass.



Well shit.....

On page 800 now. May finish tonight.


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## Han Solo (Jul 16, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I've heard of the Brandon theory, but I'm not sure I buy it. Too many characters have claimed that Ned and Ashara had something going for it to be not true. Ashara's own sister, Cersei, Ned's own people, etc.




Wyman Manderly and Roose Bolton were the two most awesome characters in the book imo. Cold as ice.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 16, 2011)

After reading Asha's first chapter in _A Dance with Dragons_ (again, this is not a major spoiler), I did not at all like how she was stated to have a "coarse black bush" of pubic hair; do people not shave their pubic hair in this series?

I have briefly paused reading _A Dance with Dragons_ to read _The Mystery Knight,_ another short story starring Dunk and Egg, and I see that Egg mentioned his boot in this story, just as he did in _The Sworn Sword._ Forgive me for needing to ask this question, but what is so significant about his boot? I am certain that I read _The Sworn Sword_ very thoroughly, but I cannot find the reason for which Egg's boot was so important.

In the earlier books of the series, did anyone find Catelyn's dislike of Jon to be reminiscent of how, in The Bible, Sarah, wife of Abraham, ordered him to send away his firstborn child, Ishmael, or how Hera in Greek mythology continually tormented Zeus's lovers and children?

On the subject of Jon Snow,
*Spoiler*: __ 



does the fact that Rhaegar's son is still alive at all affect the theory that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna? It almost seemed to me as if Martin was "Jossing" that theory, as many writers do.


Of course, I have read up to only the end of the first chapter from Asha's point of view, so if that subject is explored in greater detail later in the story, please do not spoil any surprises for me.


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## Nayrael (Jul 16, 2011)

In Egg's boot, there is a ring that proves he is a Targ I think.


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## The Imp (Jul 16, 2011)

Egg is hiding some sort of chain with the Targaryen sigil in his boot proving he's not a commoner but Aegon Targaryen. Dunk uses it to stop the battle from taking place in the Sworn Sword. 


*Spoiler*: _extremely minor spoiler to answer your Jon question_ 



One of the POV's states that Elia was very weak and she would die if she tried to have a third child. 

We know Rhaegar believed in the PTWP prophecy so he needed a third child to be the third head of the dragon. Elia isn't able to give him that, so if you believe in R+L=J, Rhaegar's third child is Jon.






Han Solo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



For the baby to be born in time, she probably got pregnant during the Tourney of Harrenhal before Ned had any commitments to Cat and Brandon was still alive. It's likely Ned wasn't told anything so he probably believed the child was stillborn like Selmy does.

Roose was awesome. He's ruthless but isn't a retard like his bastard. His chat with Ramsay and then Reek was hilarious. "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mom."


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## Han Solo (Jul 16, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _extremely minor spoiler to answer your Jon question_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



On a semi related note, does it annoy anyone else that we still don't know why people loved and respected Rhaegar? Considering the amount of people who think Rhaegar would have made an excellent king, it must be true, but we are continuously being told this, rather than shown. From what we actually know of Rhaegar, he took his sickly and unwell wife to Harrenhal in the midst of almost all the nobility and did nothing but shit on her in front of everyone by crowing Lyanna rather than Elia.

He then went on to insult three major houses in the Baratheons, Starks and Martells by running off with Lyanna and then just sat out the war that he all but started, and left both his wife and his children in the care his father who he knew was completely insane. Certainly he had his reasons, but no one else knew about that and yet they still respected him. To the average person he sounds like a gigantic dick, hardly the guy who would have been an amazing king.


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## Nayrael (Jul 16, 2011)

They liked how Rhaegar...
- was charismatic and pretty looking knight in impressive armor
- turned from a book-warm and poet into a warrior
- wasn't cruel, evil or strict... which was especially liked by people when they put him in front of insane Aerys and unlikable Tywin
- wasn't whoring around (like for example Robert)

In short, he looked to people like a knight from fairy tales.


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## Coteaz (Jul 16, 2011)

Just finished Dance after getting it a day late. Worth the wait.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon murdered by the Watch, Quentyn burned by dragons, Stannis supposedly killed by Ramsay (), Varys killing Kevan...the early review that said this was another Feast was hilariously wrong.

I did want to see more of Bran, though. I'm sure we'll see plenty of his magic in Winds of Winter.


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## Han Solo (Jul 16, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Just finished Dance after getting it a day late. Worth the wait.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm like 99% sure that neither Stannis nor Jon are dead. Or, rather, were going to get some kind of UnJon.


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## Coteaz (Jul 16, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I'm like 99% sure that neither Stannis nor Jon are dead. Or, rather, were going to get some kind of UnJon.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon is dead, but Melisandre will probably rez him next book. 

Ramsay is likely talking shit, but you never know.

Tormund Giantcock was still as great as I remembered. Lord Wyman Manderly took the crown for most surprising badass, though. Stone cold vengeance on those weasel Freys.


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## Dionysus (Jul 16, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I envision Stannis dying when his sham of a sword does dick all against the Others. He'll fail at being the Azor Ahai reborn and do so spectacularly.

Jon being resurrected will be interesting in light of Mel noting her powers are enhanced by the Wall. I want some steward crow heads rolling early on next book.


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## Fran (Jul 16, 2011)

Just bought it! Will marathon through it on the weekend.


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## The Imp (Jul 16, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _my problems with ADwD_ 





Daenerys. There were too many chapters where she did absolutely nothing. She fantasizes about Daario half the time and when she does do something it's incredibly stupid. In ASoS she was ruthless when it came to slavers but here she doesn't want to lay a finger on them when everybody knows they are behind the murders. She essentially allows slavey to return to Slaver's Bay and in Mereen in everything but name. Way to stick to your ideals Dany. And chaining up the dragons was the stupidest thing she could possibly do. They're what got her this far and she just abandons them. Atleast she realizes her mistake by the end but did Martin really need 10 chapters to get her there?

Jon chapters were okay for the most part. All of his actions were building up to that conclusion, but the end felt a bit out of character. Jon's been through so much and now he's going to openly abandon his vows like that? I could understand him getting around it by sending some of the wildlings south to help Stannis out, but going himself didn't feel right. He should have decided to go North of the Wall with the Watch leaving the Wildlings behind. The conclusion would have been the same. Jon will likely be brought back to life in TWoW but I'm hating these resurrections more and more. 

I'm a huge Tyrion fan, but I was a bit disappointed with him. It's nice to see his murder of Tywin and Shae have changed him, as well as the Tysha revelation. I didn't think he would resort to mummery with his open contempt for it though. Also he's not as witty as the Tyrion of earlier books. Overall he was pretty average this book, nothing outstanding. 

Loved all of the Northern POVs. Theon was great. It was interesting to see him so broken and his slow growth into remembering who he used to be. The evolution of his chapter names was neat too. I liked the Bran and Davos chapters. There should have been more. Asha's chapters were okay. My favourite parts are her descriptions of winter and how badly it decimated Stannis's army. Plus it's only a taste to come for the upcoming winter. When the Northerners talk about Ned and the Red Wedding, it's so heartbreaking. _The North Remembers_. ;_;

The more I think about Aegon the more I start to hate the twist. It feels like it came out of no where. The only thing going for it was the fact that Aegon's skull was unrecognizable. What I hate most though is the effect it will have on Dany. We have a new, flat, cliche character that has a better claim than her. Sure it will be interesting to see her reaction to that but it takes so much away from her character. She was the last Targaryen coming back to Westeros to take back her rightful throne with dragons at her side. The fact that she's barren (I hope she stays this way despite some of the evidence brought up earlier in this thread) adds so much more drama to the situation. She's been through so much and has beat all the odds only to take a back seat to Aegon? 

ADwD is all build up with no payoff. TWoW better be worth it.


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## Coteaz (Jul 16, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _my problems with ADwD_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



I have to disagree. Aegon's invasion will motivate Daenerys and finally get her off of her ass in Mereen and back to Westeros with the dragons. Remember, Aegon has no dragons - only Dany does, which will give her far more power and influence than a boy with a mercenary company.


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## The Imp (Jul 16, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I have to disagree. Aegon's invasion will motivate Daenerys and finally get her off of her ass in Mereen and back to Westeros with the dragons. Remember, Aegon has no dragons - only Dany does, which will give her far more power and influence than a boy with a mercenary company.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Dany has no shortage of suitors there to remind her that Westeros is ripe for the taking. Quentyn pledged 50,000 spears (an exaggeration?), Victarion is on the way with his Ironborn and their fleet, Tyrion is also there to remind her of Westeros as well as Barristan and Jorah. She knows her efforts in Meereen have turned to shit without knowing of Aegon. Aegon's invasion is just the cherry on top that will motivate her to go to Westeros, but there was already enough motivation there once her other suitors arrived. 

She may wield more power than Aegon but Dany is the type of person who would give the kingdom over to him because he has a better claim. Idk maybe it's just me but I wanted Dany to rule herself rather than share it with Aegon.


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## Fierce (Jul 16, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _my problems with ADwD_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Great post. Agree with just about everything, except for Aegon. I like the twist, but my only problem with him is that I've always thought the three heads of the dragon would be Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. So either one of them bites the dust, or Aegon does. I sincerely doubt Jon is dead...I think he IS the song of ice and fire. If he is dead, I think resurrecting him ala Dondarrion/Catelyn would be lame. I'd prefer it if someone just kept him alive (if only barely). I figure the most likely one of my big 3 to not make it to the end (or close to the end, since I'd be surprised if more than one of them was alive at the conclusion of the story) would be Tyrion, if Aegon is in fact here to stay.


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## Dionysus (Jul 16, 2011)

I agree with the Imp


*Spoiler*: __ 



Regarding frustration reading Dany's chapters. In a book called "A Dance with Dragons" she should have been the strong POV. She did seem to have more sense before, at least when it came to her own survival and furthering her drive to Westeros. She decided to remain to learn how to lead for the people, fine. Instead she ended up infested by the local politics, blundering with her dragons (the key to her power, really), and be a horny little teenage girl.

Who didn't expect her to be in Westeros by now?

In general I enjoyed the ride, but felt some POVs did not have a satisfactory ending. It felt there should be at least one more chapter for each. (As pointed out, perhaps moved to the next book.) It feels the Meereen and Slaver's Bay saga is stretching on long where things would have been better resolved in this book. Dany returning and realizing Jorah isn't the love betrayal; Victarion actually making it to Meereen; the inevitable fight for Meereen that was built up and was the focus of everyone in that area.

As I said before, I think Jon dying is an easy excuse to have him meddle in the North (as he was being pushed to do) and help settle the affairs there. So many problems for the Watch could be solved with the lords of the North actually realising there's a fucking plague of zombies and ice creatures coming, and not have to deal with rival political skulduggery. Since he died, his watch has ended. Ha.

Aegon and Connington; I believe this has been a theory for a long while. I have no clue what evidence there might be, but I know I heard about it before.


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## masamune1 (Jul 16, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> She may wield more power than Aegon but Dany is the type of person who would give the kingdom over to him because he has a better claim. Idk maybe it's just me but I wanted Dany to rule herself rather than share it with Aegon.



Don't think so. I think she'd kill the f*cker.


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## Nayrael (Jul 16, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't think Aegon will be alive when she arrives (this is ASOIAF, not a story where not every character is safe... and Aegon is not one of the safe ones)... nor do we know she will come before the others arrive. Aegon is just another normal player of the Game while Dany seems to be a Hero of Prophecy and definitely crucial in defeating the Others.

Really, Aegon Targaryen and Daenerys Targaryen have different objectives in the story.




Also, for people complaining about the unsatisfying ending: it ain't neither Martin's nor ADWD's fault: the publishers wanted it to be smaller and the chapters were thrown into TWOW. Martin himself isn't satisfied with this either.


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## The Imp (Jul 16, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't buy that it's the publisher's fault. The book is already the size of ASoS and he has a ton of stuff to cover in Meereen still.

There are some spots where Martin could have tightened it up a bit. Get rid of some chapters, combine others. But even then he has to cover an entire battle sequence and then possibly a bit of aftermath. I heard he has about 100 manuscript pages ready for TWoW but that is made up of the Vale stuff, some Arya, he said he moved a couple of Arianne chapters as well. That doesn't have anything to do with Meereen. So it's clear he didn't write all of it and move it to TWoW.


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## Dionysus (Jul 16, 2011)

I really wonder how he can finish up the story in two books without it seeming rushed. He's increased the number of novels before and I think he'll add at least one more.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Dany needs to finish up in Meereen, get to Westeros and settle ruling matters and fight the inevitable Other scourge. In this latest book she's languished about in Meereen and done little. She's going to have to return to ASOS pacing. 

The Others are yet to really take action. They will invade (or try to) and probably push humanity back. The political infighting of Westeros has taken many books; the great peril to humanity solved much faster?

Arya needs to actually do something useful with what she's learnt and is continuing to learn. (This is why I believe she's off to Westeros next.) But, still, does your gut think a satisfying resolution to her story can be had in two books?

Insert other story lines here.

Perhaps there's some master solution to all this. However, if you've followed Martin's blog, you must know he flies by the seat of this pants a lot. (Meereenese Knot being one consequence.)


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## Coteaz (Jul 16, 2011)

I can't see Martin wrapping up everything in two books, unless those books were 3,000 page cinder blocks.


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## The Imp (Jul 16, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> I really wonder how he can finish up the story in two books without it seeming rushed. He's increased the number of novels before and I think he'll add at least one more.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Just kill half the characters. Problem solved.


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## Kagekatsu (Jul 16, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Anyone else start hearing "Mrs Lovett's Meat Pies" when Manderly is serving "Pork Pies" at his court?


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 16, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> In Egg's boot, there is a ring that proves he is a Targ I think.



Yes, I recall that now, but I did find it to be funny how Egg spoke of his boot as if it were the boot itself, rather than the ring within it, that was the important item. Why did he not say "we can use my ring" or "we can use the ring in my boot," rather than saying "we can use my boot?" Did he wish to avoid even mentioning that he had a ring, I presume?

Reading _The Mystery Knight_ and _A Dance with Dragons_ simultaneously is rather interesting, as they are set almost a century apart, providing drastically different views of the same world, most notably with how House Targaryen is still in power in _The Mystery Knight_ but practically extinct in _ADWD._

On that subejct, I just reached page 317 of _ADWD,_ and
*Spoiler*: __ 



I was glad to see Jorah Mormont again; I suspected that Martin would not forget about him. I wonder if he seeks to return to Daenerys, and how Daenerys shall react when he does? Will she forgive him, or order him to be killed?


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## Dionysus (Jul 17, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Just kill half the characters. Problem solved.


That's the trivial solution.  Or _a_ trivial solution. Another would be for the Others to win. TAKE THAT, squabbling humans.


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## Keigo (Jul 17, 2011)

Martin probably felt pressured given everyone's reaction to AFFC to bulk up ADWD with more Jon/Dany/Tyrion chapters....resulting in massive filler rather than actual plot advancement.  Because the chronologies between their stories and everyone else's need to align for the endgame showdown in the next two books.  Or three, or four, who knows at this point. One way I do see a two book finish is if


*Spoiler*: _Massive Spoiler_ 




Jon really dies...that really frees up a lot of POV space, doesn't it?


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## Jesus (Jul 17, 2011)

Just got a mail from Amazon saying there was a delay. Won't get ADWD till August.





FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUU


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## Jesus (Jul 17, 2011)

Mmmmh. I guess there isn't anything morally wrong if I "pirate" the book without canceling my order. I do want to get the printed version eventually, anyway.


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## Dionysus (Jul 17, 2011)

Yeah, most new POVs (all?) are more flavouring for the story. He doesn't have to put them in.


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## Nathan (Jul 17, 2011)

Just finished the book! I haven't read any of the spoiler-tagged comments here yet, but I'll get to that right after this post. Here are some of my comments concerning the book...


*Spoiler*: __ 




A lot of characters really stepped it up! I never thought much of Val at all, but she is awesome. Same with the Manderly's, "The North remembers..." 

I have always hated Dany and thought she was a bitch, and she really proved it. Dorne basically said "Come to Westeros and we will give you 50,000 swords" and she was like "Nah, your prince you sent was too ugly." Really? REALLY?

Aegon, I'm not sure if he is the real thing or not. Connington thinks so, but can he be Illyrio's his mistress' child? Illyrio is a Lysene and they have been described to have pale blonde hair to just blonde hair, and ranging from blue eyes to purple eyes. Very interesting!

Also, I think Jon may have died and he will be brought back to life by Melisandre...


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## Nae'blis (Jul 17, 2011)

^ 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Daenerys wasn't this bad or stupid in the other books. Seriously, after all the times Viserys says "wake the dragon" it's pretty much a saying for self-entitled retards and she should know that, but she just can't stop saying it in this book. At this point I dun care if she dies. The main concern was that she was the last Targaryen and possibly Azor Ahai, but after Aegon and Jon respectively, she has no real purpose anymore. She blunders so much I just wish Tyrion had gotten to her in the first half of the book. I'm only one third of the way through so I don't know if she stops fucking up towards the end.

Suffice to say I will skip all of her chapters when I re-read the book.

Theon is so broken and pathetic I can't stand his chapters. Ramsay is one sick bastard. And I suspect that he gelded Theon.


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## The Imp (Jul 17, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Prophecies_ 



I was looking back at Quiathe's prophecies about the plague, sun's son, lion, kraken etc. She says Dany will meet a "mummer's dragon". Two meanings come to mind. Either Aegon is a fake or the mummer refers to Varys and how he is using Aegon as a tool. I'm hoping it's the former.


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## Cyphon (Jul 17, 2011)

Finished the book early this morning but have been busy.

My 2 favorite books in the series so far were _Thrones_ and _Swords_. It definitely doesn't top or match those 2 for me. Honestly I think it really does fall right in line with _Crows_ as far as timeline AND where I would place it for enjoyment. Some credit has to be given to the fact that there was so much wait and hype for it that it is hard to simply judge it as a "regular" book in and of itself. That being said I don't feel cheated or disappointed either. I would have preferred more but perfection can't be expected. 

I think the thing I liked least about this book was the lack of excitement I began to get for certain POV's. I generally looked forward to more Tyrion and Daenerys in previous books (particularly Tyrion) and in this book I just lost that. Daenerys almost seemed like the girl from Twilight and Tyrion wasn't a whole lot better. He still had his humor and such which was all to the good but I quickly grew tired of the brooding and wandering "where do whores go". 

On the flip side of that I thought Jon's chapters were pretty good in this book. I always liked his POV and it was even better in these books. I especially liked 


*Spoiler*: __ 



When he chose to cut whats his names head off and his cliffhanger




The last 2 things I will complain about are the lack of Bran and Arya and the lack of excitement in the endings of certain POV characters. Bran and Arya can give us a lot more insight into the more fantastical elements in this series and they were pretty limited here. The endings for characters isn't really a huge complaint but I was still hoping for more suspense.

The positive that stands out the most has got to be the north/Iron Born POV's and dealings. As I mentioned before Jon's chapters were pretty good but even the off shoot dealings that came from that were good as well. I enjoyed the Reek chapters and seeing just how sick Ramsay Bolton is. Pretty disturbing stuff. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Outside of the flaying I thought it was pretty sick how he had Theon eating out Jayne and such on their wedding night.




As for the Manderly's......   

The other good thing was getting some "side" POV's from characters I won't name just in case it could be considered a spoiler.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I was a little disappointed in Barristan for some reason. I can't put my finger on why but I think it has to do with his indecisiveness. I am all for chivalry and being a true knight but sometimes he just came across as a little bitch.




I am probably forgetting some things but that is my general take on the book.


Also, I agree with whoever talked about not being able to finish this in 2 books. I think there is so much more he can explore and flesh out but who knows what he will decide.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 17, 2011)

Does anyone else here dislike how Martin does not number the chapters in his books, as do most authors? I do, for it is terribly inconvenient when I am attempting to go back in a book to find information that I may have missed the first time.

Also, I find that Stannis' claim to the Iron Throne as the next-of-kin to Robert, the previous king, and therefore his rightful heir, is rather illogical, as Robert became king by helping to overthrow the previous king by physical force, not by inheritance. Renly himself pointed out that inconsistency, but no one else has, so what does everyone on this forum have to say about that?

I am now up to page 434, and
*Spoiler*: __ 



I see that Lord Wyman Manderly actually wishes to assist Davos and Stannis while opposing the Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters. I definitely was not expecting that. So, he hopes to locate Bran, and use Bran's claim to Winterfell against his enemies? Bran currently is far north, but perhaps if Bran completes his "training" (for lack of a better word) with the Three-Eyed Crow in sufficient time and then travels south again, he may meet Davos before Davos travel too far north, thus saving Davos a great amount of time and trouble.

Next, I see that Roose Bolton is not nearly as cruel as his son, Ramsay, which is a relief, but I still am displeased at how Theon is still terrified of Ramsay and calling himself Reek; Ramsay must indeed be terrifying to have so utterly broken Theon as he has. I am glad that Roose is keeping his son in check, but I fear that Ramsay may possibly kill his father, so that no one will be able to control him, which will definitely be very bad for everyone with whom he interacts.

Finally, it was very interesting to finally have a chapter from Melisandre's perspective; I see that she is not quite as confident, invulnerable, or flawless as she initially appeared to be, now that the audience can finally known what she is thinking. I also was very pleased to learn that Melisandre used her power to disguise Rattleshirt as Mance Rayder and Mance as Rattleshirt, so that Rattleshirt was the one who was burned. I am so glad that Martin did not make Mance die a cowardly death, as such an act would have been too severely out-of-character for him.


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## Cyphon (Jul 17, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Does anyone else here dislike how Martin does not number the chapters in his books, as do most authors? I do, for it is terribly inconvenient when I am attempting to go back in a book to find information that I may have missed the first time.



Personally I find it refreshing. If I really needed to find something I could just ask here or use google.



> Also, I find that Stannis' claim to the Iron Throne as the next-of-kin to Robert, the previous king, and therefore his rightful heir. is rather illogical, as Robert became king by helping to overthrow the previous king by physical force, not by inheritance. Renly himself pointed out that inconsistency, but no one else has, so what does everyone on this forum have to say about that?



By that logic Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella wouldn't be rightful heirs either because Robert was never the "true" king. How it really goes is whoever sits the throne is the true king whether they usurped the seat or not. It is not as if someone is chosen by a vote. Targaryen's came and took shit over and started running things so who is to say they have anymore of a right to it than Robert? So yeah, Stannis has the best claim out of anyone trying to take the seat. Right now the Targaryen's would technically be usurpers....At least IMO.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 17, 2011)

Finished: 


*Spoiler*: _End Book Spoilers_ 



Goddamn, Castle Black is FUCKED. "For the Watch?" What the hell were they thinking? I mean, they could have atleast had the common sense to kill him in his sleep. But all of them together, out in the open, before a scene that the entire castle had come out to witness? Before the people Jon had just won to his cause? 

Whether they liked them there or not, the wildings outnumbered the Black Brothers and the Queen's Men vastly. Jon was the only Crow the wildings would put their trust and tolerance in, the fact it was those who were his brothers that surrounded and stabbed him . . . 

Tormund aint going to stand for it. There will be bloodshed after this. Chaos. Every one of those backstabbing motherfuckers is going to die. And sadly, the non-backstabbing motherfuckers as well. Any friend wearing Black. 

Things will get ugly, and ugly fast, especially with Wun Weg and Leathers right there on the spot. 

I could see the beginning of Winds of Winter begin with a POV of Stannis returning triumphant to Castle Black, with the _charred _heads of Ramsay, Roose and Mance to find nothing but the corpses of Mel, Shireen, Jon, the Black Brothers, all of the Queen's men, and a couple hundred Wildings. Those corpses and an empty food keep. 

And to add insult to injury, any surviving Black Brothers or Queen's Men he'd find will say it was the Wildings that killed Jon and set off the battle. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



The prologue will probably from GhostJon's perspective during the battle of Castle Black - he'll be hunting for that great-boar. 

Jon Snow is dead. His Second Life has begun. If George has the balls, and I think he does, there'll be no going back. Protagonist/Hero shield be damned. 


 

After that chapter, I paced around for fifteen minutes thinking of the consequences. When I went back to the book and finished to find no more on it, I thought - Shit. Should have been the last chapter.


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## crazymtf (Jul 17, 2011)

So reading slow, since I have so little extra time. But I'm 11% on my kindle, guessing that's like around page 80-90. Anyway so far just wanted to say Jon's chapters are easily becoming my favorite. Which is funny, cause I found his the most boring throughout the series, or one of the most boring anyway. Will see if that changes as I read on!


----------



## Fierce (Jul 17, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I am now up to page 434, and
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Davos is going to find Rickon, not Bran.


----------



## Gooba (Jul 18, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Storm of Swords_ 



I was so worried Dany was actually going to sell Drogon (holy crap, I only just realized how silly a name Drogon the Dragon is) but the result was amazing.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm a slow reader, so i just finished the chapter 'the prince of winterfell'.


*Spoiler*: __ 




and FREY PIE FTW!!! lol i totally missed that, and also that mance was the singer! It was so subtle and was just so disgusted by the boltons and the bedding scene that i missed those two tidbits until someone pointed them out to me (at a chapter by chapter thread on westeros).

Major props to mr. Maanderley. Fat man FTW.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jul 18, 2011)

I completely missed the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Frey pie, where do we find out that the pork pies are Frey pies?


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 18, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I chuckled when Aegon was called a false dragon.






Fenix Down said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Reread Mel's chapter. She has a vision of Jon. He's a man, then wolf, then man again. Now, what do you think that means?

Others of the Watch who won't have supported this will see too and they will also take action. You're assuming Tormund and the wildlings are just going to kill everything rashly. And a lot of the wildlings probably dislike or distrust Jon and wouldn't really give a shit. And a good number are women, children, the sick and infirm. I can't remember how many armed wildlings there were; Tormund brought 50 and a good number have been dispersed. 

I believe Mel was anticipating this. She was watching the speech then left.


----------



## abcd (Jul 18, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




#But where can martin go with this? , Are u sure he will repeat farseer Triology, I am sure he has read and recommended those books so he knows about it. I am not sure if Hobb was the first to use it or its something normal in fantasy world


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 18, 2011)

I've never read those books.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I have a feeling Jaime is going to be killed and resurrected too. Confirms that he's "good" and R'hllor wants him alive. I think Brienne _was_ actually hanged. Dying and living again seems to be a major theme GRRMy likes to use.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 18, 2011)

Rob said:


> I completely missed the
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



3 missing Freys for 3 giant wedding pies.

Manderly tells the Freys they're the best pies they'll ever taste and to savour every bite because he knows he will.

Lady Dustin comments how happy he seems to be, and that he's serving bits of pie to everyone.

While drunk Manderly requests a song about the Rat Cook which involves both the baking of people into a pie and the idea that killing a guest beneath your roof is an affront to the gods.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 18, 2011)

I have about 400 pages left to A Clash of Kings and I hope to finish it within 2-3 days (work takes up a lot of time :[)


*Spoiler*: __ 



all I can say is holy crap Renly




I think Stannis and Tyrion are my favorite characters so far.

I do like Tywin too but he's not really in this one.


----------



## Lord Snow (Jul 18, 2011)

ADWD (Completed):

*Spoiler*: __ 



Based on the endings in DANCE; do you believe that the series can be finished in 2 books?


----------



## Keigo (Jul 18, 2011)

Lord Snow said:


> ADWD (Completed):
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



If he still retains the efficiency that he had in Storm, yes.  More complicated stories have been told in shorter lengths.  But I think he's changed a lot stylistically in those 11 years, and he's introduced literally two houses worth of POVs, plus a few more.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 18, 2011)

For someone who has read the whole thing (or the majority of it), I have a question.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Ser Robert is supposed to be Gregor right? If so, do we know how that is possible or what Qyburn did? Sometimes I miss hints and clues (like the Manderly pie) so I want to stay informed with this.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 18, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> For someone who has read the whole thing (or the majority of it), I have a question.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



There's tons of hints in Feast:

From Qyburn's talks with Cersei we know he acknowledges spells and sorcery, has experience with the black arts, and has amassed huge knowledge of life and death.

Qyburn regularly asks for captives for his experiments and they're said to be "used up" once he's done with them.

He places an order for a huge piece of armour for a knight for the kingsguard, and finally when Cersei is accused he says she'll have her champion that none can stand against.

Most likely he's like a golem, in that he has Gregor's body (minus the head?) but isn't sentient. It ties back with one of Bran's (I think) old dreams about a giant who's visor opened only to reveal darkness and black blood.


----------



## Dream Brother (Jul 18, 2011)

Finished ADWD...not impressed. You can do so much better, Martin! I'll have to hope for a return to form in _The Winds of Winter_.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 18, 2011)

Littlefinger said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the refresher. 

I do remember most of that so I guess I am just curious to find out _exactly_ what he did. I didn't know if he sent a replacement head for you know who or where he would have found one of those dimensions. Do you think it will have any connection with Whites or Others? Similar to how they don't really feel normal damage and such.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 18, 2011)

Isn't Qyburn an ex-Red priest or excommunicated or something? I suppose I could google the info.

Edit: ex-maester. Oldtown frowns on human experimentation, but Cersei approves.


----------



## Fierce (Jul 18, 2011)

Dream Brother said:


> Finished ADWD...not impressed. You can do so much better, Martin! I'll have to hope for a return to form in _The Winds of Winter_.



There's really nothing wrong with the book. It's just mostly development. It probably should have been expected, since it's mostly on the same timeline as AFFC. There's a few big things that happen, but not on the scale of ASoS. It setup everything to begin to go down in TWoW.

Imo, books rank as such:

ASoS > ADWD > ACoK > AGoT > AFFC


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## Han Solo (Jul 18, 2011)

I thought the Northern parts of the book were just as good as anything Martin has ever done really, Theon especially, but the rest wasn't up to par. 

In general, my problem is that if AFfC is half a book, then ADwD is 9/10th of a book. Even in a series, each book should have a general  beginning, middle and end. It's fine to sprinkle in a few cliffhangers, but when there are more cliffhangers than resolution, it's just annoying. Imo:

ASoS > ACoK > AGoT > ADwD > AFfC


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## Dream Brother (Jul 18, 2011)

Fierce said:


> There's really nothing wrong with the book. It's just mostly development. It probably should have been expected, since it's mostly on the same timeline as AFFC. There's a few big things that happen, but not on the scale of ASoS. It setup everything to begin to go down in TWoW.
> 
> Imo, books rank as such:
> 
> ASoS > ADWD > ACoK > AGoT > AFFC



I'm...very surprised at the order you have them in, but it's interesting to see a different perspective. ADWD isn't terrible or anything, but it just felt a bit flat and meandering to me (especially the first half) and all the characters that I'm usually very interested in (Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys) felt oddly dull, which really surprised me. What surprised me most of all is that my favourite character arc in the book turned out to be Theon Greyjoy's.


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## Cyphon (Jul 18, 2011)

Swords > Thrones > Dragons/Crows > Kings IMO.

I dunno why I didn't enjoy Kings that much. Maybe it will change when I read them all for a third time.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 18, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> I thought the Northern parts of the book were just as good as anything Martin has ever done really, Theon especially, but the rest wasn't up to par.
> 
> In general, my problem is that if AFfC is half a book, then ADwD is 9/10th of a book. Even in a series, each book should have a general  beginning, middle and end. It's fine to sprinkle in a few cliffhangers, but when there are more cliffhangers than resolution, it's just annoying. Imo:
> 
> ASoS > ACoK > AGoT > ADwD > AFfC



I thought the Northern chapters were good. If he had included the Battle at Winterfell they would have been great. 

My biggest problem with ADwD is that it's all build up with very little to show for it. It's like _A Clash of Kings_ if it ended before the Battle of the Blackwater. Even AFfC wasn't as bad with resolutions. Jaime/Cersei was the heart of the book and that subplot ended decently.

It would have been better if Martin took the first 600 pages, threw that into AFfC and got a decent editor to trim some stuff out. That way you have a complete book and no chronology problems. And instead of having 2 disappointing books, he might have only 1.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 19, 2011)

I now am up to page 484, and
*Spoiler*: __ 



The reappearance of one of the dwarves from Joffrey's wedding was a surprise; I wonder what role she shall have as the story progresses.

I really hope that Jon learns that Arya is not actually a captive of the Boltons, so that he does not need to send his men out to rescue her, but I fear that he may not learn this information until it is too late.

As for marriages, I see that Daenerys was going to accept Hizdahr zo Loraq's marriage proposal, but was then interrupted. I hope that she can defend Meereen, but I truly wish to see her unleash he dragons; what is the purpose of having them if she will not use them? I also hope that she marries only one whom she truly loves, but, judging from how this series has been written thus far, that may not be likely to occur.


----------



## masamune1 (Jul 19, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Swords > Thrones > Dragons/Crows > Kings IMO.
> 
> I dunno why I didn't enjoy Kings that much. Maybe it will change when I read them all for a third time.



I think the issue with Kings is that the status quo doesn't change all that much. Sure, Renly dies, and Stannis suffers a major defeat, but neither of them are POV characters and only Stannis even has a POV character to tell his side of the story. Winterfell is sacked at the end but that doesn't drastically change the power base of the Starks, and the story is mostly about them and the Lannisters. 

And the sack of Winterfell is the very last thing to happen, so that gives the impression not much happens at all, and even though Theon takes over earlier there is little doubt that he wouldn't have been able to hold it. Its also balanced out by Bolton's takeover of Harrenhall (which kind of gets me thinking the Greyjoys and the Bolton's are each others counterpart) and the failed assault on Kings Landing. 

In neither case do the fortunes of House Lannister or Stark change all that much, and Daenary's doesn't get up to a lot on her end either. Jon is still with the Night Watch travelling North and that does'nt get really interesting till the end either. And most of the mysteries, like who killed the last Hand, remain unresolved.

In other words its mostly set up. Its well written, and the characters are as good as ever, but nothing major happens to them, or it doesn't happen until near the end of the story. Its the supporting characters who get the most action in that story and thats not a bad thing, but its not as interesting either, especially since it ends badly for all of them. 

Plus, there is a lot more political manouvering compared to _A Game of Thrones_, where the only one really involved in that was Ned (and he tried to avoid that as much as possible), and the other characters were doing a lot more travelling and exploring. In _Clash_ both Tyrion and Cateyln, who get a truckload of POV's, get political, and that slows the action down.

So, its not a bad book at all, but compared to the other stories not a lot happens, or it doesn't happen to who we're interested in and not 'till the end. War is tedious.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 19, 2011)

Wasn't Bolton in Harrenhal with Arya?


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## masamune1 (Jul 19, 2011)

Sorry; I meant Harrenhall. Corrected.


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## Cyphon (Jul 19, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> So, its not a bad book at all, but compared to the other stories not a lot happens, or it doesn't happen to who we're interested in and not 'till the end. War is tedious.



Read everything you said and it seems pretty spot on so I will just quote what is basically the summary to save room. 

So yeah, I think you cleared up my thoughts for me lol.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 19, 2011)

The new calender was released. John Picacio put up lowres versions on his site. 



My favourites are Ned and Jaime, but the Others artwork was interesting.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 19, 2011)

I can't say I'm particularly fond of the art style in a number of them, feels like there's so many awkward comps of 2d, 3d, and photographic textures in the same image.

That said the Others are neat, definitely leaning towards what I'd been picturing.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 19, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Wasn't Bolton in Harrenhal with Arya?



*Spoiler*: __ 



Roose Bolton I think if I am not mistaken.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 19, 2011)

Finished it, not overall satisfied with how the progression went, feels too much like a brief interlude. So much buildup, but nothing really comes off it. 

Ah well, several years until The Winds of Winter


----------



## Parallax (Jul 19, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> long ass post



I haven't finished the book but nearing the end, the desire for a huge shift in the status quo seems...really unnecessary for this book.  The whole point of this book really seems to me as to set and ingrain the new power players and really develop the status quo.  I agree with you that it's slow, etc.  but I can't imagine a book like ASOS with all the crazy changes it brings ( I was spoiled :[) without this book.  It's slow but really necessary and I enjoy it more than AGOT


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## masamune1 (Jul 19, 2011)

Parallax said:


> I haven't finished the book but nearing the end, the desire for a huge shift in the status quo seems...really unnecessary for this book.  The whole point of this book really seems to me as to set and ingrain the new power players and really develop the status quo.  I agree with you that it's slow, etc.  but I can't imagine a book like ASOS with all the crazy changes it brings ( I was spoiled :[) without this book.  It's slow but really necessary and I enjoy it more than AGOT



I didn't mind the book; my point is just that for a lot of people it can come across as filler. Thats why its not usually anyones favourite.

I never said it needed a "huge shift in the status quo", I just said that by the end the status quo doesn't change all that much (okay, guess I might have just spoiled that for you). Its like the first book ended with the start of a major, long awaited conflict between House Lannister and House Stark, and this book is about introducing, and getting out of the way, everyone else in the way of that.


----------



## Keigo (Jul 19, 2011)

Oh wow Ned and Bran's images are gorgeous...and I like how he did Sansa and the Hound's eyes.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 19, 2011)

I loved the book, my favorite after Storm. 

*Spoiler*: _ahem_ 




A lot of people said the series has felt like the Wire. After watching all 5 seasons, I could see the reason. But Dance is where that whole comparison is driven to a whole new level. Hell, the Wildings going through the Wall part was like Hamsterdam all over again, in the best way possible. In the Wire, you see people in power with Good Intentions either get slowly corrupted by the system, or try to buck the system entirely only to come at odds with those thoroughly entrenched within that system. In plotlines that echoed those narratives, Dany and Jon reflect each other and play out those tragic arcs convincingly.

Dany was split between ambitions - peace for her people, prosperity for her city, and the dream of her Homeland. Choose one, and she would trample upon the others. So she tried to keep them all in play, appeasing the representatives of each in turn, again and again, and thusly was slowly grinded down to the point where all ambitions became out of reach, and all of her ideals and virtues trampled upon. If it wasn't for Drogon and Belwas, she'd be dead herself. 

As Lord Commander, Jon had a bunch of his own ambitions - Re-manning the Wall, saving his sister, making sure the Wildings don't join the Others, keeping true to his Brothers and his vows. Thanks to Janos Slynt's head, he sent the fear of death out to anyone who dared oppose him. He grew to take comfort in that, heeding no one. Unlike Dany, he grew to not give a darn about appeasing anyone below him, not Mel, not his brothers, and eventually not even his vows. He nearly got everything he wanted and needed, but his plot came to a glorious shit hitting the fan moment entirely of his own making. 

Two people with an aura of destiny, thrown into thrones of their own to rule, doing all they could for good, losing much and more of themselves in the process, and still both coming up so heartbreakingly short. If I was dissapointed in anything, it was that we didn't get to see Tyrion and Dany meet, but that would have killed her fall, so eh.

Also, Theon chaps were amazing.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 19, 2011)

dem spoilers


----------



## Felix (Jul 20, 2011)

Does anyone know if they will reprint the previous books as Hardcovers like they did with Dance?
I love the book as the hardcover (With the "pretty cover" paper removed), I want my collection all like that

I previously had the translated books (Portuguese editions) which were seperated as sets of two for each book (Since they are all huge), but meh, I rather have them in English like they were intended to be read.

I searched in Amazon(.co.uk), but all I found was the reprints of the Paperbacks...


----------



## Nimander (Jul 20, 2011)

I haven't read this book yet, but I'm not sure I even want to anymore.

Don't get me wrong.  Martin wrote a pretty damn good series.  But the long wait has pretty much killed any passion I once had for this story.  I might pick up the story one day in the far future out of curiosity to how the story ended.  But...shit.  

I've never had this happen to me before.  I'm normally on the edge of my seat for upcoming releases, so this is a weird sensation.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 20, 2011)

Felix said:


> Does anyone know if they will reprint the previous books as Hardcovers like they did with Dance?
> I love the book as the hardcover (With the "pretty cover" paper removed), I want my collection all like that
> 
> I previously had the translated books (Portuguese editions) which were seperated as sets of two for each book (Since they are all huge), but meh, I rather have them in English like they were intended to be read.
> ...



There are already new hardcovers with the new american design. 



Oh wait. I don't think the UK had a re-print. The ADwD design was already similar to the existing UK one so the series was probably only re-printed in NA.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 20, 2011)

this is probably your best bet


----------



## Felix (Jul 20, 2011)

My question is if all the Hardcovers are done in this style



Or if the covers are printed themselves with the imagery.

EDIT:

On the above link I see those hardcovers have dustjackets as well (Didn't know it was that name)
Are all Hardcovers like that?

I'm a bit of an OCD with mismatched books


----------



## The Imp (Jul 20, 2011)

The amazon.com and the ebay one are both flaps.


----------



## Felix (Jul 20, 2011)

The Imp said:


> The amazon.com and the ebay one are both flaps.



Flaps as in = Dustjackets removable?

The Bookstores I visit and buy from rarely have Hardcovers so this is all news for me. I rather have my books as Hardcovers since I do take care of them and build my libraries


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 20, 2011)

Are reprints ever hardcover? I can't say that I've seen one but can't be sure.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 20, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Are reprints ever hardcover? I can't say that I've seen one but can't be sure.



It seems unusual to me too. I haven't seen a physical copy myself but if amazon is to be believed they do have new hardcovers. That is unless they just updated the old hardcover version with the new design but I don't think that's likely.

Edit: I checked the Bantam site and yes they did reprint hardcovers.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 20, 2011)

flaps are dustjacket removeable


----------



## Felix (Jul 20, 2011)

Success then.
But it seems only the US Amazon is selling them New.
Huge import tax ahoy D:


----------



## Parallax (Jul 20, 2011)

it'll be worth it


----------



## Felix (Jul 20, 2011)

Parallax said:


> it'll be worth it



Definitely. 
This series totally warrants a good library


----------



## Mori` (Jul 20, 2011)

I kind of want the Japanese cover versions, even if it means having books in like...5 parts.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 20, 2011)

I am now up to page 564, and
*Spoiler*: __ 



I really pity Theon, as he now cannot trust anyone, believing that any attempt that anyone makes to help him is another trick by Ramsay. Will he remain paranoid and cowardly like for the remainder of his life? I certainly hope not, hope that he will reveal Jeyne Poole's true identity and rebuke Ramsay and all his cruelty, because I believe that it is better to die for the truth and live to perpetuate a deception.

Also of note was more plotting and scheming from Doran Martell; so, Cersei was planning to kill Trystane and blame Tyrion? I am very glad that Doran learned of that plan before it could be executed (unlike his learning of Arianne's plan, his disruption of which still bother me).

Next, I believe that Lady Dustin's hatred of Eddard Stark is completely unjustified and irrational; Ned married Catelyn for political reason, not out of dislike for Lady Dustin, and it was her husband's choice to travel with Ned during Robert's Rebellion. Ned is not guilty of either of those crimes that Lady Dustin assigns to him, yet she blames him nevertheless.

Finally, I am very eager to learn how everyone will react when Jeyne is eventually exposed, as there is now way, in my mind, that her secret will remain a secret; eventually, someone will make a mistake and accidentally reveal the truth, and when that happens, I am certain that much drama and action shall ensue.





Littlefinger said:


> I kind of want the Japanese cover versions, even if it means having books in like...5 parts.
> *Spoiler*: __



Those covers are very awesome, and I can identify nearly all of those characters. In order, those whose names I know are Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Asha, Jeyne Poole, and Bran. I am not certain who the others are.


----------



## Serp (Jul 20, 2011)

Im back and with all of Dance in my head.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jul 20, 2011)

Tyrion looks really creepy in the japanese version.


----------



## Fierce (Jul 20, 2011)

Looks like Chucky


----------



## Serp (Jul 20, 2011)

I was surprised that the three eyed Crow was revealed to be Bloodraven, completely out of left field for me.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 20, 2011)

Trust the Japanese to make shit awesome.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 20, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I am now up to page 564, and
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Asha, Jeyne Poole? Some of them are harder to tell than others but I assumed they were Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Catelyn, Ned, Arya, Theon, Sansa, Bronn(?), Bran, in that order


----------



## Fierce (Jul 20, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Some of them are harder to tell than others but I assumed they were Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Catelyn, Ned, Arya, Theon, Sansa, Bronn(?), Bran, in that order



That's what I got, too.


----------



## Sesha (Jul 20, 2011)

Actully I think the second to last cover is of Davos Seaworth.


----------



## Serp (Jul 20, 2011)

>.> I am so slow, I just figured out why Ramsay's letter to Jon is bullshit.

Jeyne and Theon join Stannis host, but he claims to have crushed Stannis but still thinks that Jon has Jeyne and Theon, so yes.

 Trust Ramsay sure...


----------



## Mori` (Jul 20, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Asha, Jeyne Poole? Some of them are harder to tell than others but I assumed they were Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Catelyn, Ned, Arya, Theon, Sansa, Bronn(?), Bran, in that order



That's roughly how I see it too.

Jon at the wall.
Dany on her bridal horse.
Tyrion being ugly.
Catelyn (at the whispering wood?)
Ned @ at king's landing

Arya when she saves Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from the fire
Theon on the way to Pyke (too young for Davos, Davos has brown hair too)
Sansa in King's landing (wishing for freedom)
Bronn at the blackwater
Bran and the escape.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 20, 2011)

Sesha said:


> Actully I think the second to last cover is of Davos Seaworth.



It could be, but I don't really picture Davos that way. Plus the pic looks kind of like Bronn from the HBO show. It's generic enough to be anyone though.


----------



## Fran (Jul 20, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> >.> I am so slow, I just figured out why Ramsay's letter to Jon is bullshit.
> 
> Jeyne and Theon join Stannis host, but he claims to have crushed Stannis but still thinks that Jon has Jeyne and Theon, so yes.
> 
> Trust Ramsay sure...



Might be they got away from the riders that were loosed upon them, but the letter is suspicious.


----------



## Keigo (Jul 20, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> >.> I am so slow, I just figured out why Ramsay's letter to Jon is bullshit.
> 
> Jeyne and Theon join Stannis host, but he claims to have crushed Stannis but still thinks that Jon has Jeyne and Theon, so yes.
> 
> Trust Ramsay sure...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeahh I thought that for a second.  But what if someone in Stannis' host took Theon and Jeyne up to the wall for protection or smth before they started fighting?  Or they escaped again?  With Asha? I don't want Stannis to be dead (and I don't think he is, bc he hasn't fulfilled the "sword against the darkness" prophecy yet), but it's still too vague


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 20, 2011)

Why would Jeyne Poole be on one of the covers? lol


----------



## Corruption (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm still reading through book 3, just got to the part where...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Dany bought the Unsullied and had them kill all the Astapori slavers. I was guessing that was going to happen after she was asking if the Unsullied would kill their previous owners. That and I knew she would never sell one of her dragons. That was pretty awesome!


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2011)

Major spoilers in some places, some speculations, questions and some character love rambaling for the next book. Please don't read if you haven't finished the series thus far or even finished the newest book:


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



I like Theon again. Arya is still boss, Dany is still too awesome for her own good, I still dislike Cersei, Tyrion is getting back on my good side. The dragon scenes were awesome and because of that I have a feeling when Dany gets back with Drogo she will bring a rain of fire down on her enemies, she will forgive Jorah or at least make Tyrion some form of battle genius for her side.

So when Arya was asked who she was and she replied "No one", did she 'lie'? 

If Martell had dragon blood in him, why did he burn from the fire? Is it because he had to be a full blooded Targaryen (which I think it is the reason)? Is it official about the three betrayals Dany had or has she just assumed those three betrayals were *the* three betrayals? I think she hasn't had the betrayals yet, at least not all of them.

This book was friggin' huge and often times I had to reread one chapter three times so I will need to reread this again at least 2 more times. 










Littlefinger said:


> I kind of want the Japanese cover versions, even if it means having books in like...5 parts.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Those are some awesome covers! The Tyrion one is creepy though


----------



## Parallax (Jul 21, 2011)

damn those covers are boss


----------



## Serp (Jul 21, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Major spoilers in some places, some speculations, questions and some character love rambaling for the next book. Please don't read if you haven't finished the series thus far or even finished the newest book:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



With Martell, Targaryens are not immune to fire, its known.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 21, 2011)

Took my time and finished the book. I didn't have to restrain myself much, this isn't a page-turner. The pace was slow, there were way too many words for so little actually happening. Almost nothing was resolved or wrapped up, and on top of it, cliffhangers. When you consider the sheer enormity of interesting things going on (Dany's dragons, Cercei's trial, Bran and Arya's training, etc.), it is so disappointing to see that nothing was even close to resolution. One of my favorite POV's, Arya, has seen perhaps 5 chapters over the last 10 years from GRRM, only one or two in this book. Tyrion's conclusion was giogio level. Instead he adds more POV, at least one of which ends up being a complete dead end. 

In many ways, I think George Martin has used all of his good ideas in books 1-3. Shocking when you consider it took him 6 years to produce this 1000-page brick. There are at least 200 pages that feel like a waste of time reading-- pointlessly lengthy descriptions, extensive naming of people who are irrelevant by the next page (for instance, naming every pit fighter in the room, assigning names to all the Wise Masters), long flashbacks to previous books, and worst of all, multiple points of view that are totally inconsequential by the last page. Falling out of love with this series.

He turned a fast-paced, riveting series from GOT into a Robert Jordan-esque monstrosity in the last two. I had to check the cover to make sure it wasn't Jordan writing from beyond the grave!


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2011)

Tsk tsk. A mod posting spoilers from the latest book without tags.

I will admit, I skip most of the description paragraphs. Especially when it's about food. I can tell Martin is fat just from the sheer number of food descriptions and the ample detail they have. It's like Robert Jordan was with the clothes descriptions.

What's the sword in the darkness prophecy? If it's about failing to beat the Others, I can see Stannis fulfilling. If it's about actually being Azor Ahai...

I had a thought on Stannis's host.


*Spoiler*: __ 



They are starved, weak, and might be unfit to fight off another army. I see two magical ways around this. One would be for R'hllor to sustain them, and another would be for a good number to die and become wights. The only problem with the latter is if Others can make wights while they are across the Wall, or if they need to do something on the same side before crossing.

Of course, maybe they find a hearty meal somewhere and saunter off to battle.


----------



## Felix (Jul 21, 2011)

Before I bite on the Bantam Hardcover editions
Could someone with the US Dance with Dragons (hardcover) take a picture of the book without the flap/dustjacket?

Just to see if the US/UK editions match


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 21, 2011)

Felix said:


> Before I bite on the Bantam Hardcover editions
> Could someone with the US Dance with Dragons (hardcover) take a picture of the book without the flap/dustjacket?
> 
> Just to see if the US/UK editions match



Here ya go.




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Felix (Jul 21, 2011)

Amazingly different, but the American one looks cool on the front and back, looks like the Al Quran.

Thanks !


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2011)

If you buy the US version you'll get all sorts of funny spellings. Even if the covers matched, the insides would be changed.


----------



## Felix (Jul 21, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> If you buy the US version you'll get all sorts of funny spellings. Even if the covers matched, the insides would be changed.



As a non English-native speaker, I rarely notice the differences between the UK and US spellings. Sometimes I even mix both together. That's what you get when you learn English on the Internet. 

Heh, funny spellings

Anyway about the book, loving it so far, but then again, I'm THAT type of reader that loved Feast for Crows and that has no problems with it's pacing, so, can't really rally behind the criticism of it being slow and full of filler.


----------



## Coldhands (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm just gonna leave this here...


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Jul 21, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> *Spoiler*: _Spoiler tags..._
> 
> 
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



Obvious solution, during the battle Theon, Jeyne and Asha escaped.


----------



## abcd (Jul 21, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got the american version ??? I thought I had the UK edition


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 21, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> ASoS > ACoK > AGoT > ADwD > AFfC



I'd probably go this way

Game > Storm >> Clash >>>>>> Dance > Feast

The only reason Dance beats Feast for me is that I favor the Dance POV more. Quality wise, they are similar. 

Game was perfect. No POV that went nowhere. Lots of stuff happening but you didn't get the sense (like Feast and Dance) that GRRM was getting paid by the word. 

Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Jaime, and Davos were all POV who either went nowhere or were abruptly cut off as if a projector failed halfway through a movie. Dany, Bran, and Cersei had half-told stories with no conclusions . 

The only POV that felt like a fully fleshed out story was Jon, and even it ended on a cliffhanger. But at least there was some progression for events at the Wall.

Only perhaps one had a satisfying conclusion like Sansa's or Cersei's from Feast. In those at least you felt that one significant chunk of a plotline was done and another was opening. I notice the Amazon average review score for Dance is lower than Feast, and it doesn't surprise me at all.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 21, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sexy. Makes me think of the White Book of the Kingsguard.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 21, 2011)

Except it's not white.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 21, 2011)

looks a dirty off-white to me. but whatever.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 21, 2011)

Picture quality isn't great, it is grey.


----------



## Fierce (Jul 21, 2011)

Excellent article, everyone should read it


----------



## The Imp (Jul 21, 2011)

I still don't understand what the whole "Mereenese Knot" was all about. I thought he had trouble deciding on how all of these characters would converge on Dany. With the exception of one character it seems more like he delayed it to TWoW rather than solving it.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2011)

The Imp said:


> I still don't understand what the whole "Mereenese Knot" was all about. I thought he had trouble deciding on how all of these characters would converge on Dany. With the exception of one character it seems more like he delayed it to TWoW rather than solving it.



He also said whatever problem he had was solved by the inclusion of a new POV. I can only assume it was


*Spoiler*: __ 



Selmy. Perhaps it was the Martell chap, but I believe he intended to show that anyway.

Either way, I don't see what the issue was. Hell, he didn't even need to tell us anything of what happened after Dany flew off with Drogon--until she returned. Martin seems to be falling into a trap of wanting us to know as much as possible from various areas of import. He even had a perfectly good POV character nearby--Tyrion. Luckily we went from 4 POVs in or by Meereen to 2 (till Dany gets back).

To me, the tangle still appears to be there. The Meereenese clusterfuck remains. Armies outside the gates, dragons loose, murderers inside the gates, disease running rampant... Perhaps the issue really is that he didn't plan the happenings over there as well as in Westeros.

Who didn't think, before starting this book, that Dany would be in (or heading for) Westeros by the end?


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> With Martell, Targaryens are not immune to fire, its known.




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm not sure I understand... 

I thought Targaryens weren't hurt by fire. Dany wasn't.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 21, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's pretty inconsistent. Viserys is a Targ but he didn't show any extraordinary fire immunity. And GRRM has stated a few times you don't have to be a Targ to one of the three heads of the dragon. Also if you read some of the backstory of the reigns of the Targ dynasty, a lot of them died from fire. One of them drank wildfire to try to become a dragon. Aegon V was killed at the Tragedy of Summerhall which had something to do with fire and hatching dragon eggs.


----------



## Fierce (Jul 21, 2011)

Not all Targaryens are "true" dragons, simple as that.


----------



## Serp (Jul 21, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Targs are hurt by fire yes, Dany's immunity came from her fufilling part of the AAR prophecy. Reborn under the bleeding star, amongst the fire and flames. And the magic from using a kings blood to wake a stone dragon.
Viserys was killed by molten gold, one was killed  by drinking wildfire and then there was Summerhall.

And if Targs were immune to fire, then the whole point that they ritually have a funeral pyre would be redundant.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2011)

Hm.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Seems Jon fulfilled Azor Ahai prophesy bits at the end of Dance. All expect the dragon? Though, perhaps that happened too somehow.


----------



## Felix (Jul 21, 2011)

I CAN'T STOP READING
Just finished the first chapter of Melisandre:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Who is the girl they assume it's Arya Stark?


----------



## Serp (Jul 21, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> Hm.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



All the candidates have fufilled parts and not the others. Stannis hasn't woken a dragon from stone, Neither has Jon. But both Stannis and Jon have magic swords tempered in flame. Stannis is currently trying to wake a dragon it seems. So as to who is the real AAR is still a mystery.





@Felix

*Spoiler*: __ 



Are you sure you wanna know
*Spoiler*: __ 



Alys Karstark


----------



## Felix (Jul 21, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks I had to be sure if it was someone I knew or it. It spared me a huge trip to Tower of the Hand


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2011)

The Imp said:


> It's pretty inconsistent. Viserys is a Targ but he didn't show any extraordinary fire immunity. And GRRM has stated a few times you don't have to be a Targ to one of the three heads of the dragon. Also if you read some of the backstory of the reigns of the Targ dynasty, a lot of them died from fire. One of them drank wildfire to try to become a dragon. Aegon V was killed at the Tragedy of Summerhall which had something to do with fire and hatching dragon eggs.




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Ah, okay then. That was my initial thought because of Dany's brother (even if his death wasn't exactly from fire). I just assumed Martell was immune because of the dragons "sorta" like him when Dany showed them to him. He was a pretty interesting character too...

Also...I was disappointed with the lack of Arya chapters, but at least her chapters were good xD


----------



## Serp (Jul 21, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



So I take it you don't believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents?


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2011)

Waking dragons from stone or however it's worded... In a mundane manner, a large loan would suffice for such a prophecy.

Of course, it might just be that everyone of the heads of the dragon shows the fulfilment somehow.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> So I take it you don't believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents?




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Actually, I do believe they are. 

Robert said she was raped by Rhaegar, so it is definitely the one I believe.

And me thinks Benjen knows something about it...


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2011)

Why do you double spoiler tag, Terra? If someone clicks to reveal, do you believe they will perhaps change their mind when presented with a second chance?


----------



## Serp (Jul 21, 2011)

Since this is not Dance stuff no need to spoiler.

Points to my Avatar. I don't think Rhaegar raped Lyanna, I think he actually loved her. He needed a third child to make the prophecy come true and Elia couldn't survive another pregnancy. And Targaryens fit for the song of fire and Starks for the song of ice. Everything we know of Rhaegar paints him as an honest, noble and just man the opposite of Robert. Robert was just angry his chick got taken and cried rape and kidnap.

But if you believe that then, therefore Jon being a Targaryen, he burned his hand saving Mormont. Showing that if Jon is a Targ then Targs can be burnt. 


*Spoiler*: _ CotF_ 



If the children of the forest sing the song of Earth, do you guys think it makes sense for Dragons to sing fire and Others to sing ice? 





@Dionysus I don't understand about the loan. :/


----------



## masamune1 (Jul 21, 2011)

The Imp said:


> I still don't understand what the whole "Mereenese Knot" was all about. I thought he had trouble deciding on how all of these characters would converge on Dany. With the exception of one character it seems more like he delayed it to TWoW rather than solving it.





Dionysus said:


> He also said whatever problem he had was solved by the inclusion of a new POV. I can only assume it was
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I think part of the problem is a assumption a lot of readers held- me included- that Dany was going to invade Westeros before the Others did. The title of this new book is obviously a big reason for that assumption (though to be fair to Martin, he did say years ago that the title did not necessarily refer to her invasion).  

Instead, it looks like she'll either invade at around the same time,  or even after, which I guess will make her a sort of _Deus Ex Machina_, except that we've been with her all this time. Doesn't mean her story will end well, but it seems like her destiny will involve showing up and crushing the Others' invasion, rather than having the misfortune of being there when it happens.

The knot, from what I gather, is about preparation for her invasion of Westeros, meeting with all the characters who will help her in her quest. Meereen going to Hell was never really the issue- she will probably leave it as it is. I think what happened there served more to give her some harsh and important lessons in leadership and government, and of course give her something to do while the main plot in Westeros and in the North gets sorted out, and to give the other characters a chance to move closer to her, as well as to give her some character development. 

_The Winds of Winter_probably won't have much to do with her invasion either, except setting it up and maybe ending with it. The "Meereesense Knot" was not about Dany solving the problems of Meereen; it was about figuring out how to get her the hell out of it. The knot has been solved, but the consequences of solving it have to be waited for.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 21, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Who didn't think, before starting this book, that Dany would be in (or heading for) Westeros by the end?



I did. 

I should have learned my lesson when I expected huge battles in _A Feast for Crows_. Presumably crows need a large number of bodies from a major battle to feast. Nope! Not Martin.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> Why do you double spoiler tag, Terra? If someone clicks to reveal, do you believe they will perhaps change their mind when presented with a second chance?



Yes, I do actually.  

And its a measure to ensure I won't get in trouble over it...


Serperion Targaryen said:


> Since this is not Dance stuff no need to spoiler.
> 
> Points to my Avatar. I don't think Rhaegar raped Lyanna, I think he actually loved her. He needed a third child to make the prophecy come true and Elia couldn't survive another pregnancy. And Targaryens fit for the song of fire and Starks for the song of ice. Everything we know of Rhaegar paints him as an honest, noble and just man the opposite of Robert. Robert was just angry his chick got taken and cried rape and kidnap.
> 
> ...



That was before I knew not all Targaryens could be burned. I wasn't exactly sure, I've only read the series once so far and it was during the night. xD


----------



## Serp (Jul 21, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Yes, I do actually.
> 
> And its a measure to ensure I won't get in trouble over it...
> 
> ...



Yea thats fine, I was just using it as an example to show that "Targs" have been shown to be burnt from the first book. If Jon is a Targ that is.


----------



## Coteaz (Jul 21, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> I did.
> 
> I should have learned my lesson when I expected huge battles in _A Feast for Crows_. *Presumably crows need a large number of bodies from a major battle to feast.* Nope! Not Martin.


They're feasting off of the dozens of battles and hundreds of pillaged villages from the first three books. Also, the crows are metaphors for the Lannisters, Tyrells, and friends feasting off of the corpse of the realm.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> @Dionysus I don't understand about the loan. :/


If you take out a large loan, lots of gold dragons...

A silly way of fulfilling.


*Spoiler*: _regarding the "Meereenese knot"_ 



It might be that he solved whatever problem he had (and it's still not clear to me what it was, specifically--I doubt I'll get it unless I try to write out the solutions I can picture in my mind), but I don't feel whatever resolution he came up with spelt a satisfying ending for the book. Far too much is hanging for me to be happy with the _novel_. He might be setting up, but I'd have preferred the execution to have happened.

Feast and Dance are both products of the problems he had continuing and telling the story, and it shows in their structures as novels.

I'll have to look back, when the story is finished, to see whether these books could have been better handled. (Well, in a way I can envision; clearly every book has the possibility of being better.) Did we need to have that one Melisandre chapter? Was a Quentyn POV necessary? Is Asha necessary? Victarion, especially since he starts and ends on an unfinished journey? There might have been a lot of fat that could have been removed to leave room for the Meereen resolution and some more progress in the North. GRRM has changed styles from a tight story to one that has become more expansive, harder to interweave, and is thus slower. (In both book release dates and progress per book.)


----------



## The Imp (Jul 21, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



That is my biggest problem with it. From all the talk about it on forums and on his blog it seemed like a more immediate problem that would be resolved in ADwD. Instead we have all of the major pieces sitting near Meereen (Tyrion, Victarion, Moqorro, and Marwyn will probably be there soon too) waiting for the next book to converge. He probably has it resolved in his head but I wanted more to show for it. 

I expect the convergence will happen at the beginning of book 6, with Dany deciding to leave for Westeros around half way in. It'll feel like the proper end to ADwD. His biggest problem seemed to be the chronology. Splitting it by location and then recombining both halves together in the same book was an incredibly stupid decision. Especially since the Feast characters in ADwD felt more like cameos than the story becoming whole again. 

As for your end game predictions, I always thought Dany and the Others would invade at roughly the same time. I thought both invasions would start at the beginning/middle of TWoW with Dany leaving Meereen at the end of ADwD. Dany starting in the South and making her way North, while the Others get past the Wall and make their way South. Then the Others meet Dany and the rest of the 7Kingdom armies near the Neck or Riverlands. I think Dany even had a vision of fighting the Others on the trident, too.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 21, 2011)

I just finished reading _The Mystery Knight;_ I took a longer duration to read that story because I was reading it at the same time as _A Dance with Dragons._ I found it to be entertaining, as were the first two short stories, and I was again surprised that it ended quite well for the heroes, although I was  very disappointed that the Second Blackfyre Revellion ended in such an anti-climatic manner; I was hoping for an awesome and epic battle, but at least Dunk and Egg both survived.

Now, I am wondering, how will Ramsay Bolton being married to Jeyne Poole, impersonating Arya, affect Petyr's plans to marry Sansa to Harrold Hardyng and reclaiming Winterfell for her? I imagine that, as Sansa is older than Arya, her claim will be stronger, and she will recognize Jeyne, and because she shall ideally have the full force of the Vale supporting her, she shall be able to renounce such a deception with relative impunity, unlike Theon, who would likely be killed for exposing Jeyne. The Northerners would ideally rally to support her, as they do not like the Boltons very much. What does everyone else have to say about that?

I now am up to page 578 of _A Dance with Dragons,_ and
*Spoiler*: __ 



I see that Daenerys did indeed go through with her marriage to Hizdahr, although I am still hoping for something to disrupt it, as I do not like marriages that are not made out of true love. I see that Quentyn finally reached Daenerys, although he was too late to marry her. I shall be expecting greater things from him, as the story progresses.


----------



## Fierce (Jul 21, 2011)

I read the Dunk and Egg novellas a few days back. The Hedge Knight was awesome. Sworn Sword and Mystery Knight were okay.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 21, 2011)

You have to be trolling us, DDJ.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 21, 2011)

Does anyone have the book forms for download of _Hedge Knight_ and the others?

Someone linked the comic versions before but I am also interested in reading it's book form.

Edit: Or am I forgetting something and it was only ever done as a comic?

Edit 2: Pretty sure it is only comic form. My memory is pretty terrible.


----------



## Felix (Jul 21, 2011)

It's both Novella and Comic
The Novellas are short stories though, written in compilations with other authors

The Comics are stand alone and very enjoyable


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 21, 2011)

wait, Dunk & Egg comic? I missed that one.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 21, 2011)

The comics were linked in this thread a couple hundred posts ago.


----------



## Pintsize (Jul 22, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Finished!_ 




So, I finished the whole damn thing, finally. Perhaps this is just because I haven't been waiting as long as some of you other fellows, but I really enjoyed this one. Perhaps more than all the others. 

I think the first thing I loved was all the development. While I shared most of your disappointment in the fact that no real conclusions were reached here, I relished how layered the scheming got at the end and I feel it's just about to burst at the seams come the winds of winter. Of course, if it doesn't, I will graciously eat my words. Perhaps it's simply easier for me to have faith since I haven't been reading as long (only started this series a year ago). Still, though it's no _Wire_, this may be the next best thing.

My only large complaints in this novel were the way Jon and Varys were handled. Jon, because while he was making all these brilliant plans abroad and at home, he was absolutely piss stupid when it came to the watch. He mentions in one of his POV chapters that he knows the Old Bear was killed by his brothers. Melisandre told him he wasn't looking for the daggers close by. Jon constantly takes note of how much the Watch hates everything he was doing with the Wildlings. It was just one, book-long idiot ball. I won't deny that I'm a bit more incensed that Jon died because I liked his POV, and that's all I have to say about that.

With Varys... I had been waiting since his speech to Ned about working for the realm (piss on the lords' honor and whatnot) for something big. Maybe he was an anarchist, maybe he'd be working to set up some democratic form of government, and instead we get... another monarch. In this, if not in Jon's narrative, I find myself trolled.

Oh, and I loved all the magic (Bran's chapters especially), but... where the bloody fuck is the Mage?


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 22, 2011)

The Imp said:


> The comics were linked in this thread a couple hundred posts ago.



Do you have any other link for them?

NF isn't allowing me access to whatever page this was on.


----------



## Felix (Jul 22, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Do you have any other link for them?
> 
> NF isn't allowing me access to whatever page this was on.



You don't have access to the Outskirts Trading Post?
Anyway

this

Nightclub promoter contract

Rep Jerusalem.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 22, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> You have to be trolling us, DDJ.



How am I trolling you?


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 22, 2011)

What someone post covers from non-English versions of ADWD?

Here is the Croatian ADWD Part 1 Cover Art:


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 22, 2011)

Felix said:


> You don't have access to the Outskirts Trading Post?
> Anyway
> 
> this
> ...



Thanks.



DemonDragonJ said:


> How am I trolling you?



It is probably referencing some of the things you say and your tone. I believe you spoke with someone else about this before.

None of my business really but I think that is what he was referring to.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 22, 2011)

If you're not trolling, DDJ, hurry up and finish already. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. (It's not tone, it's child-like innocence.)


----------



## Felix (Jul 22, 2011)

Oh my what a pleasant surprise, a chapter of Areo Hotah and Dorne.
Am I the only one who loves Dorne? Like the North, they are isolated, have their own culture and don't give a darn and play their own game.

That and they use Spears.


----------



## Mori` (Jul 22, 2011)

Dorne = best.


----------



## Felix (Jul 22, 2011)

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 22, 2011)

I like Dorne but I didn't care for Quentyn (spelling?) or his POV.


----------



## Felix (Jul 22, 2011)

So far now (On the second Asha POV chapter) I found Quentyn POVs as unneeded if some fat needed to be trimmed from the book.  But then again, it is added flavor.

Doran Martell is a mastermind player, that phrase "Until Oberyn, no Martell had fallen to war of the five kings... Will this be my disgrace or my praise?" showed how well he is playing the game of thrones


----------



## Sasuke_Bateman (Jul 22, 2011)

There will be a Song Of Ice and Fire RPG coming out later this year, It will surely be rubbish though.


----------



## Felix (Jul 22, 2011)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> There will be a Song Of Ice and Fire RPG coming out later this year, It will surely be rubbish though.



RPG?
I thought it was an RTS


----------



## The Imp (Jul 22, 2011)

Felix said:


> So far now (On the second Asha POV chapter) I found Quentyn POVs as unneeded if some fat needed to be trimmed from the book.  But then again, it is added flavor.
> 
> Doran Martell is a mastermind player, that phrase "Until Oberyn, no Martell had fallen to war of the five kings... Will this be my disgrace or my praise?" showed how well he is playing the game of thrones



That was a great line and great way to end the chapter. Dorne also has my favourite motto of all the great houses. As for Doran's scheming, he's good but I wouldn't say he's one of the best players in the game of thrones.


*Spoiler*: _End of ADwD_ 



He's thinking in the right direction but his execution is severely lacking. Of course he had no way of predicting what would go down in the East but sending Quentyn with 5 other guys to bring back Dany is hardly infallible. His ace in the whole was a contract that doesn't even directly involve Dany.


----------



## Sasuke_Bateman (Jul 22, 2011)

Felix said:


> RPG?
> I thought it was an RTS



My mistake, yesh it is!


----------



## Felix (Jul 22, 2011)

The Imp said:


> That was a great line and great way to end the chapter. Dorne also has my favourite motto of all the great houses. As for Doran's scheming, he's good but I wouldn't say he's one of the best players in the game of thrones.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _End of ADwD_
> ...



Until now he did nothing wrong, seems he will though. Rats
I still haven't finished the book, received it too late
Entering now Arya's first POV

@Sasuke_Batemam:

It looked okay, it features multiple scenarios throughout the history of Westeros. It might be interesting


----------



## abcd (Jul 22, 2011)

Felix said:


> So far now (On the second Asha POV chapter) I found Quentyn POVs as unneeded if some fat needed to be trimmed from the book.  But then again, it is added flavor.
> 
> Doran Martell is a mastermind player, that phrase "Until Oberyn, no Martell had fallen to war of the five kings... Will this be my disgrace or my praise?" showed how well he is playing the game of thrones



That was my fav line in the book .. It was so touching for some reason


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 22, 2011)

@The Imp - To be fair he was still way ahead of the game in concerns to Dany/Targs. Nobody else was making any moves toward her outside of Robert who wanted her dead. 

His contract was actually a perfect idea outside of the circumstances that came about and it still technically could have worked but Dany was being pretty snooty.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 22, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Only thing I question about that is that Jon looks like Eddard.


----------



## Serp (Jul 22, 2011)

My favorite line was either Tyrion and Jorah.

T: Lend me your sword an I will drown you in gold.
J: I've seen a man drowned in gold it wasn't pretty, if you have my sword it will be through your bowels.
T: A sure cure for constipation, just ask my father.

Or all of Manderlys japes about Freys.

@Cha Jon looks like a Stark, which would make sense if he is Lyanna's son.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 22, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> My favorite line was either Tyrion and Jorah.
> 
> T: Lend me your sword an I will drown you in gold.
> J: I've seen a man drowned in gold it wasn't pretty, if you have my sword it will be through your bowels.
> ...



Ahhhhhh Your right! hmmmm but what about the story 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Godric told Davos about the fisherman's daughter. Saying he left her with silver and a bastard in her belly.

"Jon Snow, she named it, after Arryn."


----------



## Mori` (Jul 22, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> @The Imp - To be fair he was still way ahead of the game in concerns to Dany/Targs. Nobody else was making any moves toward her outside of Robert who wanted her dead.
> 
> His contract was actually a perfect idea outside of the circumstances that came about and it still technically could have worked but Dany was being pretty snooty.



Pretty sure it would have worked excellently if:


*Spoiler*: __ 




a) Dany hadn't decided that she was so bad at ruling that she had to marry herself off to secure the peace in a city that doesn't matter remotely to her overall goals.

b) She wasn't being a teenage girl dreaming of fucking her sellsword captain.

It was obviously a gamble, but if Quentyn had arrived earlier I'd not have been remotely surprised to see her head to Dorne happily. Pretty sure Barristan could speak to the Dornish nations qualities for her if she wanted some advice.


----------



## Felix (Jul 22, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Or he could be named after Jon Connington, Rhaegar's best friend and protector of Aegon


----------



## Serp (Jul 22, 2011)

Or he could be named after the legendary Jon Stark. 

Lies are the tongue of Westeros.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 22, 2011)

Arya and Jon look alike. Arya looks so much like her aunt Lyanna. That's the chain strewn in the first book.


----------



## Serp (Jul 22, 2011)

Apparently Margaery looks like Lyanna also.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 22, 2011)

Clearly Benjen Stark must have been ranging all the way to Highgarden.


----------



## Serp (Jul 22, 2011)

If he was ranging at 13, more power to him.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 22, 2011)

Hell yeah. Noble teens start young. Except for Ned.


----------



## Serp (Jul 22, 2011)

Ned got pussy at 20, thats not too old. Although even Tyrion got some at a younger age.


----------



## Felix (Jul 22, 2011)

Everytime people mention Margeary I always remind myself of the HBO actress that will portray her

:datdress


----------



## Serp (Jul 22, 2011)

Anne Boleyn :datqueenofengland


----------



## Pintsize (Jul 22, 2011)

Was it just me, or did anyone else think that what Danerys needed in Mereen wasn't Shavepate, it wasn't Barristan Selmy or Darrio. It was...


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 22, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Apparently Margaery looks like Lyanna also.


Didn't Ned tell Renly that he was full of shit when asked about this?


----------



## Serp (Jul 23, 2011)

It was Loras and yes he said he was full of shit, but then again how many people who say yes about their dearly beloved dead sister at that time and place.


----------



## Felix (Jul 23, 2011)

Just reached the first Cersei POV chapter
How can everyone say the book is slow? The streams have joined once again, North and South in the same book.

Sure the first part seemed to go slowly, but things happened, blame the editors for wanting to give the fans lot's of Tyrion chapters but from my point of view, the North is in full action, lot's of things are happening, the status quo is moving forward. Loving it, too bad the pages seem to be dwindling... I'm reaching the end of it.

Loving it so far, my favorite POV until now is Theon, his chapters are simply amazing this time around, on the other hand along with the Quentyn Martell POVs, I thought Asha could have met the axe from the editors as well, but oh well.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 23, 2011)

Not that it is hard to spoiler stuff but when are we calling the official cutoff for the need to spoiler tag comments?


----------



## Felix (Jul 23, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Not that it is hard to spoiler stuff but when are we calling the official cutoff for the need to spoiler tag comments?



A few more months perhaps?
Until Summer ends, most people have the free time to read giant books during the summer, by then everyone will be ready I guess


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 23, 2011)

A few months? I figured it was almost time to end the tags 

Again, I don't care whether we need them or not, I was just curious.


----------



## Felix (Jul 23, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> A few months? I figured it was almost time to end the tags
> 
> Again, I don't care whether we need them or not, I was just curious.



Hell axe the few more months thing
Wait until August has ended, say mods, do you agree?


----------



## Serp (Jul 23, 2011)

Im ready to do away with them now, they have had 11 days.


----------



## Nois (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm finishing Game of Thrones, does this stuff get any better?


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 23, 2011)

Words are Wind. And the words in the third book will blow you the fuck away.


----------



## Keigo (Jul 23, 2011)

Yeah book 3 is RELENTLESS.  But take your time.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 24, 2011)

Nois said:


> I'm finishing Game of Thrones, does this stuff get any better?



Yes, it gets so epic it will make you cry.


----------



## Felix (Jul 24, 2011)

I have finished Dance with Dragons.
I don't know what to say.


----------



## Angoobo (Jul 24, 2011)

Felix said:


> I have finished Dance with Dragons.
> I don't know what to say.



Is it good?


Is there any difference between the first book and the tv show?i intend to read the books, but i don't know if i should start with the first one since i already saw the show...


----------



## Felix (Jul 24, 2011)

Angelo said:


> Is it good?
> 
> 
> Is there any difference between the first book and the tv show?i intend to read the books, but i don't know if i should start with the first one since i already saw the show...



A few differences, well, the story followed the same path, but there are characters missing and a few details and flesh given to the world that was not in the TV series. You would do well in reading it.

About Dance of Dragons, loved it and:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Quentyn, poor Quentyn, merely a child in front of beasts
Jon Snow is clearly what Stannis not and I doubt he is dead
Still speaking of Jon Snow, he totally did not behave like Jon Snow, it was very strange that last POV chapter of his...
Varys, oh great Varys, that was an excellent Epilogue, I totally want Aegon to reach his Throne, that boy is a King, the rightful king, and he was made as one
Theon chapters were excellent
When Bran's chapters finally got interesting, we got a sudden drop of his POV
Same for Davos
Manderly might be fat, but damn is he a bit badass. 
Loved the book. I WANT MOAR







SPOILERS in the link above
EW talk about the Cliffhangers with Martin.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 24, 2011)

Angelo said:


> Is it good?
> 
> 
> Is there any difference between the first book and the tv show?i intend to read the books, but i don't know if i should start with the first one since i already saw the show...



The show streamlined the story pretty well but some characters were affected more than others. Particularly Bran. He has some of the more supernatural heavy chapters which the show basically cut. Robb also has another dimension to him in the books, he feels pretty flat in the show. Some of his emotional struggles aren't shown very well as he is forced to become the man of the house. 

There are also some important flashbacks and world building that didn't have time to show. As well as many minor characters that become much important later. Definetly read the first book before going to A Clash of Kings.


----------



## Felix (Jul 24, 2011)

About Jon


*Spoiler*: __ 



Connington. He was clearly gay for Rhaegar wasn't he?


----------



## The Imp (Jul 24, 2011)

Felix said:


> About Jon
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I didn't really see it myself but GRRM confirmed it somewhere.

When he said he didn't want to marry again, I thought it was because of the greyscale. When he said Elia wasn't worthy of Rhaegar, I just read that literally rather than him wanting to be with Rhaegar. Looking into the sunset with Rhaegar was probably the biggest clue but I read the book quickly so I didn't think much of it. 

I just thought that they were bros and Jon looked up to him as an idol instead of wanting to be his gay lover.


----------



## Felix (Jul 24, 2011)

Also about Quentyn Martell


*Spoiler*: __ 



He was the sun that rose in West and was set in the East


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 24, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Did people really not catch that Jon Connington was gay? I caught it the moment he thought that Elia wasn't good enough Rhaegar. That's just not how you think of a friend.


----------



## Felix (Jul 24, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Did people really not catch that Jon Connington was gay? I caught it the moment he thought that Elia wasn't good enough Rhaegar. That's just not how you think of a friend.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I have been against some of my friends girlfriends myself, sometimes I know they can get so much better. And I'm happy when they do.
Still I think he was gay, but less obvious than the Renly/Loras clues


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 24, 2011)

Felix said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I get what you mean, and to be honest I've thought the same about some people my friends have dated. But Jon came off as possessive and jealous, which is what tipped me off.


----------



## Felix (Jul 24, 2011)

About the North:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Do you guys seriously think Ramsay defeated Stannis? I think not and it's all a sham, my bet is he captured one of the spearwives and made her talk, Ramsay had lot's of details on the letter, but was missing accurate information about the most recent details... Like Stannis getting all the information about Arnolf Karstark. That and the envoys from the Wall actually went to Winterfell first, only to find it empty.
Most of Roose Bolton's troops are loyal to the Stark, Manderly is being badass and serving Frey Pies to the Freys... Another Red Wedding incoming?


----------



## Keigo (Jul 24, 2011)

Felix said:


> About the North:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 





George basically confirmed in another EW interview that you shouldn't take the letter literally.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 25, 2011)

Felix said:


> About the North:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: _rambling speculation_ 



What are the chances the Boltons hid their entire army in the crypts? Is that possible? The crypts aren't that big, right? But it seemed like Roose was preparing them to meet Stannis in the field. 

The last we saw of Mance, he was going to sing for the Boltons . . .  from him or the Wilding girl they left in Jeyne's room, they found out about who he was and Jon's want to rescue his sister. Then Theon rescued her. The Boltons, thinking that she was heading back to the Watch, would set their sights there. But they wouldn't dare march elsewhere with Stannis so close . . . 

Plus there's the Wildings reputation of not giving into torture and spitting out their own tongues before they could talk, though, I doubt even Mance ever faced anything like Ramsey. 

There's also Arnolf Karstark - Stannis obviously found him out and may have broke him to his will. He then sends the man and his troops to find the Boltons camp, but he sends him with his magic sword, and the order to tell them that they slaughtered the remaining winter wearied survivors of Stannis's host. The sword would be proof of that. He would say they found no trace of Arya Stark. That would free the Boltons to march on the Wall in search of her. Ramsey sends the letter out to draw Jon out into the jaws of their surprise march. All the while, Karstark and Manderly conspire to eat the Boltons from the inside out with Stannis approaching from the South.

Or Stannis could have defeated the Boltons in the open field, killed Roose and taken Ramsey and Mance hostage. Surprised at Mance being still alive, he blames Jon for being a treacherous bastard and for turning his sorceress. He forces Ramsey to write the letter to draw him out.

Or, Stannis could have died while looking into the fires. Or falling into them.


----------



## Felix (Jul 25, 2011)

Speaking of the Crypts


*Spoiler*: __ 



Who the hell stole all those Swords? Was that mentioned in the previous books? I can't remember


----------



## Felix (Jul 25, 2011)

This post on Westeros explains the point of Quentyn Martell rather nicely (Other than the Sun that rises in the West and sets in the East)


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Because GRRM likes subverting tropes in fantasy.
> 
> QM in another book would have been the hero: intelligent, well read, kind of bland personality, on a long journey to rescue a queen/princess who was "the most beautiful girl in the world". He is accompanied by two companions -- one of whom is a big, strong, silent-type of figure and the other the charming rogue. On their shoulders rest the fate of their kingdom. After nearing the conclusion of their journey and facing murder by the jealous king, the nerdy hero decides to sneak in and steal the McGuffin, a dragon, to save the day.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mori` (Jul 25, 2011)

Felix said:


> Speaking of the Crypts
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Osha, Meera, and Bran took them when they fled Winterfell.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 25, 2011)

Felix said:


> This post on Westeros explains the point of Quentyn Martell rather nicely (Other than the Sun that rises in the West and sets in the East)


I don't think the problem is that people don't "get" the story (though it is unnecessary for many, demonstrating a point that was hammered home often enough in the story up to this point), but that it was as if GRRM tacked on a short story into the book. I'd have preferred a tighter selection of POVs and more from the main story.

I felt Quentyn was background material in the book. I'd have preferred learning of his exploits briefly in other POVs.

Even worse, as I see it, is Victarion. Why not have him arrive and, if important, tell of what happened from the POV of Dany?


----------



## The Imp (Jul 25, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> I don't think the problem is that people don't "get" the story (though it is unnecessary for many, demonstrating a point that was hammered home often enough in the story up to this point), but that it was as if GRRM tacked on a short story into the book. I'd have preferred a tighter selection of POVs and more from the main story.
> 
> I felt Quentyn was background material in the book. I'd have preferred learning of his exploits briefly in other POVs.
> 
> Even worse, as I see it, is Victarion. Why not have him arrive and, if important, tell of what happened from the POV of Dany?




*Spoiler*: __ 



He can't really show up and meet her because he's shaping up to break the siege on Meereen. 

Of course his POV isnt essential, much like we didn't see the Lannisters/Tyrells travelling hundreds of miles to attack Stannis from the rear.


----------



## Serp (Jul 25, 2011)

Felix said:


> This post on Westeros explains the point of Quentyn Martell rather nicely (Other than the Sun that rises in the West and sets in the East)



Viserys is the best inversion of that trope yet, imo.

The exiled prince on a mission to reclaim his birthright from the evil drunk Usurper king. Stealing away in the night with a Knight and his pregnant mother he vows to return home one day and get his crown... Or not.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 25, 2011)

Felix said:


> About the North:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



No, I don't think GRRM Would end with Theon arriving at King Stannis camp, without actually showing the battle that followed He would have been skipping a great deal.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 25, 2011)

Felix said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Or he could be named after Jon Connington, Rhaegar's best friend and protector of Aegon



Ahhhh ok never thought of that either. ON POINT.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 25, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Up to Page 754_ 



It was surprising, yet pleasing, to see the washerwomen at Winterfell attempt to rescue Jeyne, believing her to be Arya, but at this point in the series, after having witnessed too many well-made plans go awry, I was not surprised that their plan did not work perfectly, but i do hope that at least Theon and Jeyne escape, because if they are captured again, Ramsay will likely kill them very slowly and very painfully.

I had a horrible suspicion that the peace forged by Daenerys' marriage to Hizdahr would not last, but it was good that Drogon finally returned; he was likely drawn by the scent of the blood from the pit fights. I wonder what shall happen to her forces now that she is gone, where she shall land, and if her other dragons shall be released, as well.

I had a suspicion that Tyrion and Penny would perform for Daenerys' wedding, but I was expecting Jorah to attempt to reach her then, so I wonder if he still desires to return to her.

I really hope that Selyse and all of her forces depart from Castle Black soon, as they have no business being there, plus, the Night's Watch should not be lending them assistance of any form, including food and shelter, as they are not supposed to participate in any struggles of the realm.

Finally, it was good to see a chapter from Cersei's point of view again. I still cannot believe that she suspects Tyrion for everything that is happening to her, although I certainly do sympathize with her plight and am very angry that Margaery may be absolved of all charges. I really hope that Cersei shall survive this trial that she is currently experiencing.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 25, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, yeah. He'll arrive, in his way, do what he has to do, and eventually talk to Dany. As you say, it's not as is we've not had unknown army/navy elements in the story before; we were just informed of events later.

Mainly I just want to put it out there that I get it, just don't like it. As it stands. I've griped far too long during this wait to let such inefficiencies pass.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Jul 25, 2011)

I have very recently started reading Game of Thrones, after I had finished the first season of the TV show of the same name that introduced me to SOIAF universe. At around 90 pages I enjoy quite a lot the differences and the more detail. Though knowing what comes next is a bit of a negative. Anyway, great series and I can't wait to finish the first book and start the later ones.


----------



## Corruption (Jul 26, 2011)

ASOS


*Spoiler*: __ 



Holy shit! I just finished reading the "red wedding," I don't even know what to say. I had to take a break after that lol. The Starks can't catch a break. It's so depressing for Arya, after finally going through all that shit to meet up with her mother and brother, only to find out they've been slaughtered with her to follow. ASOIAF is so unforgivingly good!


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 26, 2011)

For Arya? What about Sandor? He travelled all that way and he didn't even get a change to sit down and have cup of wine before all hell broke loose.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jul 26, 2011)

Half way with Dance, horny Dany is annoying but the rest of the POV are just awesome. I'm starting to like Melisandre character too.


----------



## Gooba (Jul 26, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _SoS_ 



If Jamie was badass he'd build a new hand that can crush metal, or become a chainsaw.


----------



## Parallax (Jul 26, 2011)

When all this is said and done what would be your guys pick for the one who you want to sit on the Iron Throne?


*Spoiler*: __ 



My vote so far is on Stannis


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 26, 2011)

I am now up to page 826, and
*Spoiler*: __ 



I see that both Tyrion and Quentyn are forming plans over in Meereen; I will be very interested to see how those plans progress. Quentyn's plan to release one of the remaining dragons is very daring, but also very dangerous, so I hope that he does not die or get seriously injured during it.

The chapters from Barristan's perspective were very nice, as well, as he was again a new perspective that had not been seen previously. In hope that he can survive this treacherous new regime and locate Daenerys.

I am glad that Jon Connington has returned to Westeros and recaptured his ancestral home, but I fear that Prince Aegon is too brash and impulsive, and if he leads the charge against Storm's End, he may be very vulnerable. He is too valuable to lose, so I really hope that he either changes his mind or has many guards about him.

I was very pleased that the horn that the free folk had, that Melisandre burned, was not the true Horn of Joramun, or at least apparently not; this means that the true horn still can be found, and used. I was hoping that Martin, even with his tendency to crush the hopes and dreams of his characters and audience alike, would not not waste such an interesting plot device, and I am glad to see that my hopes have apparently been fulfilled.

It was very good to learn that Theon and Jeyne were successful in escaping, and that they joined with Stannis and his forces. I shall be very interested to see how Asha and Theon react to their reunion.

I notice that there has been no chapter from Bran's perspective recently, so I certainly hope that there is at least one more before the book is concluded.


----------



## Fierce (Jul 26, 2011)

Parallax said:


> When all this is said and done what would be your guys pick for the one who you want to sit on the Iron Throne?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon. Even if I don't think he is the most suited to rule the Seven Kingdoms, assuming he is part Targaryen and part Stark, he pretty much has to. The perfect combination of badass.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 26, 2011)

Finally finished. Was taking my sweet time, listening to 1-3 chapters a day, as to make it last. 


*Spoiler*: __ 





As of now, the books stand like this:

ASOS>AGOT>ADWD=ACOK>AFFC

I would rank ADWD third best in the series, a virtual tie with ACOK. I though ADWD could have been a better book, because it was essentially all buildup without any payoffs. It could have been the best book in the series, if not a close second if some of these plotlines had a better resolution.

Jon's storyline was amazing. I enjoyed all of his chapters, even though i was spoiled with his 'death'. 

Dani's was by far my least favorite, though i see what Martin is doing. To go forward, you must go back. Dani was on the edge of becoming a Mary Sue, if not already one. This book shattered that concept. And while we got hardly any plot movement in her storyline, there was plenty of character development to be found (if not in the ways we hoped). 

Theon's story was amazing. I was expecting a sort of Jaime-like redemtion, and i got it. His chapters were the best written in the whole book, and his redemtion was subtle, gradual, and believable. He didn't turn out into a badass and turn against his captors, but redemtion came through thoughts, memories, and and subtle deeds. Fantastic storyline.

Tyrion i had read wasn't the best plotline, but i found i enjoyed almost all his chapters. The world building of this book we got almost all through him. I specially enjoyed the chapters of him traveling with Griff and young Aegon, and then again his travels with Penny. The resolution, not so much, it was like most others, incomplete.

On that not, I'm not sure what to think about the Aegon plot twist. All i can say is i definitely enjoyed reading Connington's chapters.

Martel's chapters were boring, except for the last. I never really connected with him and have to wonder what was the purpose of his storyline.

Victarion's were OK, though if i had neutral feelings to his character in AFFC, i definitely don't like him now. I know he's an ironman, and that's how they are, but he's just a huge jackass, and has no sense of humor.

Asha's were definitely very good, specially her first chapter, extremely well written.

Bran's were amazing, nothing more can be said, they were absolutely fantastic. The only bad part about them is that there were only 3.

Davos again, amazing. Same complain as with Bran, just too short. Anyone else has Manderlay as one of your their new fav characters by now?

Arya's were good. A new light shed on the FM training, but i think her storyline might be moving a bit too slow. Would have rather have had more of her chapters, and less of let's say, victarion, and Cersei. Even Jaime's chapter could have waited until the next book.

I rather enjoyed Barristan's chapters. Hell of a lot more than Dani's, that's for sure. Honorable as he is, he's willing to act, and get shit done.

Cersei and Jaime were just finishes to their storyline. Varys killing Kevan and Pycell will have huge repercussion, specially if the reins of power are handed back to Cersei. She has not learned her lesson, though i felt kind of sad for her during her walk of shame. I don't know what to think of Jaime's cliffhanger ending.

I know I'm probably missing some storylines, but i can't remember now. Overall, it was a good book. Very Good, if short of great because it lacked proper resolution. 

Here's hoping to an amazing TWOW.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 26, 2011)

Parallax said:


> When all this is said and done what would be your guys pick for the one who you want to sit on the Iron Throne?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Most of my favourite characters aren't even contenders for the throne. So I think I'll go with Gendry or one of Robert's other bastards.


----------



## Gooba (Jul 26, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _My pick_ 



Dany married to Jon with Tyrion as the Hand.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 26, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Finally finished. Was taking my sweet time, listening to 1-3 chapters a day, as to make it last.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I think Arya's chapters would have benefited if he had thrown them into AFfC. It becomes more cohesive that way instead of dragging it into ADwD.


----------



## Suigetsu (Jul 26, 2011)

Gooba said:


> *Spoiler*: _My pick_
> 
> 
> 
> Dany married to Jon with Tyrion as the Hand.



but they are like fking cousints no?  unless he was trully of Dayne blood. And fck the iron throne, that hiddeous and dirty place it's rotten.

I think that Sansa would be a good match for Robert's bastard that was raised by stannis. But poor girl, she is being sexually harassed by everyone.

I still havent got my hands on ADWD, cause no one fking reads in my country...


----------



## Fierce (Jul 26, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> but they are like fking cousints no?  unless he was trully of Dayne blood. And fck the iron throne, that hiddeous and dirty place it's rotten.




*Spoiler*: __ 



If Rhaegar is Jon's father, then Dany would be his aunt.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 26, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> For Arya? What about Sandor? He travelled all that way and he didn't even get a change to sit down and have cup of wine before all hell broke loose.



LOL poor Hound. LOL


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 26, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> Half way with Dance, horny Dany is annoying but the rest of the POV are just awesome. I'm starting to like Melisandre character too.



Always loved Melisandre! Her name alone is sexy!


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 26, 2011)

Parallax said:


> When all this is said and done what would be your guys pick for the one who you want to sit on the Iron Throne?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



hmmmm Jon Snow






Or Davos! LOL


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 26, 2011)

Gooba said:


> *Spoiler*: _My pick_
> 
> 
> 
> Dany married to Jon with Tyrion as the Hand.



Wow That would be amazing!
*Spoiler*: __ 



 I think one may die tho... Tooo much winning to have all 3 live thru to the end. Somebody major has to die if i know GRRM


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## cha-uzu (Jul 26, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> but they are like fking cousints no?  unless he was trully of Dayne blood. And fck the iron throne, that hiddeous and dirty place it's rotten.
> 
> I think that Sansa would be a good match for Robert's bastard that was raised by stannis. But poor girl, she is being sexually harassed by everyone.
> 
> I still havent got my hands on ADWD, cause no one fking reads in my country...



We she is the Stark sellout tho so... i feel for her but, then again... not so much.


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## Han Solo (Jul 26, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> We she is the Stark sellout tho so... i feel for her but, then again... not so much.



Ah yes, that there 11 year old girl totally deserved to see her father's head get chopped off, be sexually harassed and emotionally manipulated, almost get raped multiple times, be in constant fear for her life, be accused of regicide and hear that her entire family other than her half brother are dead.

Oh, and Stannis for king.


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## Felix (Jul 26, 2011)

For England James?
No, For the Watch


----------



## Felix (Jul 26, 2011)

Is it sad that I want Manderly to be Hand of the King?
That fatso rocks


----------



## The Imp (Jul 26, 2011)

Felix said:


> Is it sad that I want Manderly to be Hand of the King?
> That fatso rocks



Haha, I think it would be more fitting if his family was given the Twins.


----------



## Felix (Jul 26, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Haha, I think it would be more fitting if his family was given the Twins.



They manage White Harbor so well, it's the trading center of The North


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## The Imp (Jul 26, 2011)

Felix said:


> They manage White Harbor so well, it's the trading center of The North



I meant in addition to. Kind of like what happened with the Karstarks and Karhold.


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## Serp (Jul 26, 2011)

On the iron throne, I would like Sansa 

Seriously after all her training with Littlefinger on how to be gangsta, it would be nice to see her finally being Queen and it would make Cersei's prophecy actually Refer to Sansa.

Wyman motherfucking Manderly is a new favourite character and Reek chapters were hauntingly good.

Dany's chapters were basically. "Daario, Daario!, Daario!!, Drogon, Tokar? TOKAR?????" Did not enjoy.

Jons were "Do this, NW disagree, Do it anyway."

After Crows had none of the POVs I wanted I was looking forward to this, but honestly some parts of Feast trumped Jon and Dany chapters this time round.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 26, 2011)

Sansa on the Iron Throne, lol, who would she marry?


----------



## Nakor (Jul 26, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Sansa on the Iron Throne, lol, who would she marry?



She's already married to Tyrion 

Tyrion for King :ho


----------



## abcd (Jul 27, 2011)

I think it will become a 3 way fight between varys, tyrion and little finger in the end 

or if the faceless men theory is correct by someway, It would be Varys vs everyone else


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 27, 2011)

And today came my Croatian ADWD Part 1 ^_^
(as well as a T-shirt with all kinds of heralds from the book, from Starks to Slaveowners)


*Spoiler*: _Prologue_ 



I saw that many people didn't like Varamyr's chapter, but I really liked it as I generally like both mages and the north.

Varamyr itself was also interesting to follow as we don't usually read from POV of such evil characters. As much as Vargs may look cool, this chapter also shows why the people's fear of them is justified.

Seeing as some Starks are Vargs as well, I guess this chapter is foreshadowing of through what moral fights they will have to go.


----------



## Serp (Jul 27, 2011)

Pics of said t-shirt.


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## Nayrael (Jul 27, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Pics of said t-shirt.



Here it is:




*Spoiler*: _Tyrion I_ 



And finall,y we are back in Pentos. Wish I had seen more of it tough...

Tyrion's whole mental state could be summarized in 3 words: wine, whores and daddy. At first it was kinda annoying to see him repeat all that, but later on it became funny for some reason o_O

Illyrio is a funny guy but he somehow pisses me off. I wonder what kind of help he thinks Tyrion would have for the Targaryen pretendant





*Spoiler*: _Daenerys I_ 



Many found this chapter boring, but I liked seeing what is happening in Meeren, especially how nothing goes well. To be perfectly honest, Dany's decision in ASOS I consider to be pure stupidity and I do hope she ultimately fails to rule Meeren. She may be accepted in Westeros to some extent (Dohtraki and the Unsullied will make it harder to accept her) but a Queen of Meeren... you can't just come, declare yourself a nation's ruler and think everything will go just fine.





*Spoiler*: _Jon I_ 



I find "Starking" to be more interesting after Varamyr's chapter and it is interesting to see how Ghost's thoughts materialize in Jon's human mind.

And of course: Stannis Baratheon, the man of the 5 Kings whom I support. He may be a harsh man and sometimes follows rules too much, but I can't but like him.

Mel herself is becoming more interesting now that she is in her element: mystical magician in mystical land. I really wonder how R'hllor will fit in territory of The Old gods.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 27, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> Ah yes, that there 11 year old girl totally deserved to see her father's head get chopped off, be sexually harassed and emotionally manipulated, almost get raped multiple times, be in constant fear for her life, be accused of regicide and hear that her entire family other than her half brother are dead.
> 
> Oh, and Stannis for king.



Her best freind also had her head mounted on a spike. i didn't say I felt nothing for her... but she was the one that cause it all when she snitched on her father to Queen Cersei... Had she shut her mouth none of what you brought up, would have ever happend... and she was 13.


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## Han Solo (Jul 27, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> Her best freind also had her head mounted on a spike. i didn't say I felt nothing for her... but she was the one that cause it all when she snitched on her father to Queen Cersei... Had she shut her mouth none of what you brought up, would have ever happend... and she was 13.



She was 11 at the beginning of the story, she's 13 now. I'm not saying she wasn't annoying as fuck and that she didn't act like a complete idiot, but the sheer amount of shit she's gone through is so disproportionate to her "crimes" it's absurd.

And honestly, I think a fair bit of fault lies with Ned and Catelyn on this one as well. Ned was taking his 7 year old son to see him behead someone, but wouldn't allow his 11 year old daughter to learn anything about the Southern court, even though he was planning to marry her to the future king. Not to mention, Sansa has seen her little sister be a rebellious little brat her entire life, and actually be rewarded for it.

In the end you're talking about a girl, who once she got somewhat of her head out of her ass, risked her own well being to save Dontos, did the same for the mother Joffrey was probably going to kill, comforted and saved Lancel despite being a Lannister, etc. She's a fundamentally good person.


----------



## Arishem (Jul 27, 2011)

Sansa is hardly the stupidest person in the Stark family.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 27, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Bran I_ 



I am in contradiction with most people it seems: the chapters they didn't like, I do like. Chapter many people liked, I don't.

While it was nice to see these guys and animal communication was fun, neither much happened nor did I find out more then what I already knew :/





*Spoiler*: _Tyion II_ 



If someone else was talking instead of Illyrio, I would call that person a naive fool. However, in Illyrio's case I believe he is talking like that intentionally to sound stupid.

A lot of lore was revealed in this chapter: from landscape to roots of Andals. From Golden Company to Illyrio's and Varys's interesting past. Definitely my favorite chapter till now,


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 27, 2011)

^I loved that Tyrion chapter too. 



Nayrael said:


> *Spoiler*: _Jon I_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stannis Baratheon is no King of mine, but no man can deny his righteousness.


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 27, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Merchant's Man_ 



Wow... talk about generic adventurous hero character ^_^;
Feel kinda sorry for Quentyn tough: doesn't look like he wanted to go on this journey AT ALL. Well, at least he is not angsty and I respect that.

And I hope Gerris' idea is to join that mercenary company as it looks like fastest way to arrive in Slaver's Bay.




Seeing how dreams are often prophecies, I decided to go and analyze Tyrion's dream:


*Spoiler*: _Tyrion II and after_ 




-mountains of Westeros becoming red like blood - war in westeros
- fighting alongside Barristan Selmy - Tyrion will be allied with Barristan Selmy and thus probably be allied with Daenerys Targaryen
- ...and alongside Bittersteel - seeing how Bittersteel created Golden Company, I guess he will fight alongside them and alongside Aegon Targaryen. Guess this means Dany and Aegon WILL be allied... unless boy dies along the way in which case I guess Golden Company will fight with Dany
- Tyrion has two heads - split personality or something similar
- Tywin leads the enemy - either he will be resurrected by Others or Cersei's necromancer somehow got hold of his body 
- Tyrion kills him again - guess he will be the one responsible for un-Tywin's second death
- Tyrion kills Jaime - speaks for itself
- he laughs while he is killing him - Tyrion gone nutts? Guess his split personality is insane
- after the battle ends, he notices that he is crying - after the war ends, part of him regrets what happened
-


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 27, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> She was 11 at the beginning of the story, she's 13 now. I'm not saying she wasn't annoying as fuck and that she didn't act like a complete idiot, but the sheer amount of shit she's gone through is so disproportionate to her "crimes" it's absurd.
> 
> And honestly, I think a fair bit of fault lies with Ned and Catelyn on this one as well. Ned was taking his 7 year old son to see him behead someone, but wouldn't allow his 11 year old daughter to learn anything about the Southern court, even though he was planning to marry her to the future king. Not to mention, Sansa has seen her little sister be a rebellious little brat her entire life, and actually be rewarded for it.
> 
> In the end you're talking about a girl, who once she got somewhat of her head out of her ass, risked her own well being to save Dontos, did the same for the mother Joffrey was probably going to kill, comforted and saved Lancel despite being a Lannister, etc. She's a fundamentally good person.



Cersei Lannister herself said that they would have been done had she not come to them. The only thing Ned did wrong was confront Cersei out of kindness towards her children. To keep them alive. He was honerable to a fault...

Lets see... Sansa gave false testimony against her sister Arya, which ended in the death of her own direwolf, (which in my opinion left her weak compared to the rest of the starks) and also the death of the boy that the hound killed. 

Dropped a dime on her dad which got him and the rest of the starks MURKED. Also... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Jeyne kidnapped and mentally and physically fucked... 



Then the only person at court that meant her no ill will (Tyrion) She treated completely cold.... Still with those little girl dreams of handsom princes and beautiful galas and weddings... Even after watching her fathers head cut off. She still felt that way. NOT#winning

Sansa has been quite selfish thru-out the series. I do believe by this point she finally may grasp it all after the mental anguish  she's experienced.

Risking for Dontos, Lancel n all nice n all but Like I said she has gallons of blood on her hands. 

Like i said I do feel for the girl but the things she caused because her selfishness were extremely grave.


----------



## uchihasurvivor (Jul 27, 2011)

Yeah she was your typical medieval teenage fangirl, dumb and completely blind to the truth. Fortunately she is changing now.

Though I didn't expect Daenerys to become Sansa v2.0


----------



## The Imp (Jul 27, 2011)

[sp]I've been thinking about the Red Wedding and how the producers of the HBO show want to use it for the season 3 finale. I hope the last shot is of Robb's mutilated body sitting on a throne with Greywind's head attached and his crown on top. There are dead bodies and blood all around him. In the background you hear The Rains of Castamere playing mixed with laughter or the sound of wolves howling as it fades to black. It would make for such a chilling scene.[/sp]


----------



## Nayrael (Jul 27, 2011)

The Imp said:


> [sp]I've been thinking about the Red Wedding and how the producers of the HBO show want to use it for the season 3 finale. I hope the last shot is of Robb's mutilated body sitting on a throne with Greywind's head attached and his crown on top. There are dead bodies and blood all around him. In the background you hear The Rains of Castamere playing mixed with laughter or the sound of wolves howling as it fades to black. It would make for such a chilling scene.[/sp]



Hell yeah, it indeed would 
I don't think anyone could forget such an ending to a TV series.


*Spoiler*: _Jon II_ 



A whole chapter with only purpose of turning Jon Snow from a boy into a man and a leader... wonder if Robb ever went through that.

We had him being cruel to Gilly and show him as careful Lord Commander, but the cake is taken by what eh did to Janos Slynt, man attempted to play the Game of Thrones on the Wall and, when he started losing, didn't give up but went on and opposed the winning side. And if you don't kneel, you lose the Game of Thrones... in other words, he dies.

Wise choice from Jon, but it also leads to path to betrayal and fulfillment of Mel's prophecy.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 27, 2011)

Nayrael said:


> Hell yeah, it indeed would
> I don't think anyone could forget such an ending to a TV series.
> 
> 
> ...



Robb did go through that in AGoT. We got little tidbits in Bran and Catelyn chapters. There's that one scene where Robb just breaks down and cries with Bran in the dark. And then Catelyn notes that he's acting a bit cold towards her because he doesn't want to lose face in front of his bannermen. Robb came into his own during/after the King in the North scene. In comparison, Jon's transition was fairly quick.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 27, 2011)

There's also that part where Robb had to deal with Karstark. Was it after that where he said the crown was heavy on his head?


----------



## Serp (Jul 27, 2011)

I just wanna see Rhaegar on screen 

*Jon Connigton on the inside*


----------



## Felix (Jul 27, 2011)

We are all gay for Rhaegar


----------



## Serp (Jul 27, 2011)

On the subject, Arya looks like Lyanna but have you noticed that Sansa has mannered her more, as in falling for the crown prince and inadvertently fucking up the whole Stark family.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 27, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> Cersei Lannister herself said that they would have been done had she not come to them. The only thing Ned did wrong was confront Cersei out of kindness towards her children. To keep them alive. He was honerable to a fault...
> 
> Lets see... Sansa gave false testimony against her sister Arya, which ended in the death of her own direwolf, (which in my opinion left her weak compared to the rest of the starks) and also the death of the boy that the hound killed.
> 
> ...



You make it sound like Sansa had the slightest clue that any of this would happen. She acted against her father wishes, which sounded like it was the first time in her entire life as well, like almost every child of that age does at one point or another - Arya did it all the time but I never hear bitching about her being a brat. It just so happens the one time Sansa did it there was consequences she had no idea about, mostly because Ned purposely left her ignorant of the situation.

Littlefinger and the Lannisters are the ones to blame for the downfall of the Starks, you know, the actual cunts who started this shit.

I kind of agree about the whole Nymeria situation though. There was no actual vindictiveness about it, but you don't lie to the king.



cha-uzu said:


> Then the only person at court that meant her no ill will (Tyrion) She treated completely cold.... Still with those little girl dreams of handsom princes and beautiful galas and weddings... Even after watching her fathers head cut off. She still felt that way. NOT#winning



So because Tyrion was kind to her, does that change that his family, whom as far as she knows he fully supports, "killed" her entire family? That Tyrion was complicit in forcibly marrying her against her will?  Why the fuck should Sansa give the slightest shit about any Lannister who went about helping in the war against the North? They're all her enemies who are holding her hostage.

And no, Sansa wasn't dreaming of handsome princes at that point. She was completely happy at the idea of marrying Willas, despite his lameness, because he actually sounded like a nice person in a family that wasn't trying to genocide her own.



cha-uzu said:


> Sansa has been quite selfish thru-out the series. I do believe by this point she finally may grasp it all after the mental anguish  she's experienced.
> 
> Risking for Dontos, Lancel n all nice n all but Like I said she has gallons of blood on her hands.
> 
> Like i said I do feel for the girl but the things she caused because her selfishness were extremely grave.



Sansa stopped being selfish when Ned got his head cut off, and blood isn't on her hands - it's on those who actually did the deeds. Sansa didn't murder anyone, she didn't torture anyone, she didn't rape anyone and nor did she do any of that through proxy or support it at all. All of that was outside of her control, and the few times she has actually been in control, she's gone out of her way to help people.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 27, 2011)

Not gonna lie, no matter what Sansa has gone through I have yet to feel any sympathy for her. Still hate her and her POV's.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 27, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Not gonna lie, no matter what Sansa has gone through I have yet to feel any sympathy for her. Still hate her and her POV's.



Well, I still think Theon is a cunt and would like for someone to behead him, but I do feel sympathetic towards him. It's not mutually exclusive.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 27, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> Well, I still think Theon is a cunt and would like for someone to behead him, but I do feel sympathetic towards him. It's not mutually exclusive.



I am torn on Theon. What he did should have called for death but what he got was worse than death and he is redeeming himself or at least trying.

Sansa still just sucks.


----------



## Han Solo (Jul 27, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I am torn on Theon. What he did should have called for death but what he got was worse than death and he is redeeming himself or at least trying.



This is definitely one of those be careful what you wish for scenarios. Had Theon simply been killed, I doubt anyone would care, but as you said, he got a fate worse than death.



Cyphon said:


> Sansa still just sucks.



Fair enough. I didn't like her myself until my second re-read of the series, and considering my favorite characters are Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton and Littlefinger, she does kind of feel out of place.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 27, 2011)

I am now up to page 860, and
*Spoiler*: __ 



I read the second chapter from Arya's perspective, and it seems to me that she has no long-term plans; she merely lives day by day with no thought for her future, and continues to insist that she is "no one." I find that to be rather unfortunate, as I wish to see Arya proudly proclaim her Stark heritage and play a central role in the events of this series. Hopefully, she shall return to Westeros to perform some great action at some point before the end of the series.

The next chapter from Cersei's point of view was very intense, and I actually felt a great sense of suspense while reading it, and I was immensely relieved that she survived and even had a champion waiting for her; is that Ser Gregor's body, somehow reanimated, like a zombie or a Frankenstein's monster? If so, I am very eager to see it fight.

However, I was appalled by the way that the Septas treated Cersei, shaving her hair and forcing her to march through the entire city while naked, with the crowd shouting at her. Such self-righteous, "holier-than-thou" attitudes disgust me utterly, and I truly do hope that Cersei can have vengeance against everyone who has humiliated her. I was even more infuriated by the fact that Margaery apparently was released, free of charges and with her dignity intact; my desire to see her and her house suffer is now stronger than ever, and I would even say that House Tyrell is now my third least favorite noble house in this series, after Houses Frey and Bolton. I also was rather displeased with Cersei herself; she was determined to remain strong and prideful during the entire procession, yet even she eventually lost her calm and began to panic and feel shame. Why did Martin write the chapter like that? Did he wish for us, the audience, to feel Cersei's pain and sympathize with her? If he intended to do that, he certainly succeeded, as I truly did feel sorry for Cersei in that moment. The one thing about that situation that did please me was that Tommen was spared having to wtiness Cersei being paraded through the city in such a manner. Hopefully, Cersei shall be declared innocent of her crimes and reclaim her dignity and the respect of the populace, and, hopefully, the High Septon and the Septas shall suffer greatly for their treatment of her.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 27, 2011)

Um... you do realize that she is guilty of all of those crimes, right?


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 27, 2011)

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but Sansa has only been fondled once. And that was by Marillion. I can't believe in a series like this people think that her showing her tits to a few kingsguard to be "grievous sexual abuse". Sansa hasn't been touched. She should have been raped half a hundred times by now. And I love how she continuously shits on the only (well, one of two) person who even shows her the slightest bit of genuine kindness. But eh, who cares?





Cyphon said:


> I am torn on Theon. What he did should have called for death but what he got was worse than death and he is redeeming himself or at least trying.
> 
> Sansa still just sucks.


Wasn't it Ramsay who actually killed the millers/crofters children? I'm not sure but I think it was. Theon authorised it though, sure, which is creepy since the youngest one may well have been his own child.


----------



## Dionysus (Jul 27, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



And stating that she's "no one" and have the human lie detectors believe her is part of her training. If you read her inner thoughts, she's still Arya.

I hope the apprenticing is away from Braavos and in Westeros.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> So because Tyrion was kind to her, does that change that his family, whom as far as she knows he fully supports, "killed" her entire family? That Tyrion was complicit in forcibly marrying her against her will?  Why the fuck should Sansa give the slightest shit about any Lannister who went about helping in the war against the North? They're all her enemies who are holding her hostage.
> 
> And no, Sansa wasn't dreaming of handsome princes at that point. She was completely happy at the idea of marrying Willas, despite his lameness, because he actually sounded like a nice person in a family that wasn't trying to genocide her own.



LOL Han she wasn't happy she excepted it. Anything to get out of Kings landing which i do not blame her. This will be a difference of opinion because how I read those chapters she seemed more focused on her dreams and stuff. I have to read it again maybe I will view it different.



Han Solo said:


> Sansa stopped being selfish when Ned got his head cut off, and blood isn't on her hands - it's on those who actually did the deeds. Sansa didn't murder anyone, she didn't torture anyone, she didn't rape anyone and nor did she do any of that through proxy or support it at all. All of that was outside of her control, and the few times she has actually been in control, she's gone out of her way to help people.



Blood on your hands is not a literal term. Protecting Joffrey got her Direworf killed and then the stable boy as well. She didn't learn...

Her mouth got her dad and numerous starks and house maids and help killed with her mistake...  Thats what I mean by blood on her hands. I agree she did switch up when he was killed. I have no current beef with her. I just feel her mistake was the worst of the series. The ramifications was felt all over the 7 kingdoms.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> Well, I still think Theon is a cunt and would like for someone to behead him, but I do feel sympathetic towards him. It's not mutually exclusive.


Theon was a dumbazz but he didnt kill Bran or Rickon which is his saving grace... Plus he Paid a heavy burden for his actions.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah I think she will let go of Arya in the next book for a while but as ;ong as needle is under those steps and she says her nitely prayers she will come back to Arya Stark. I read somewhere book 6 will be time skip of 5 years or something. rumor


----------



## abcd (Jul 28, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I think she will let go of Arya in the next book for a while but as ;ong as needle is under those steps and she says her nitely prayers she will come back to Arya Stark. I read somewhere book 6 will be time skip of 5 years or something. rumor



no time skips.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 28, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> Fair enough. I didn't like her myself until my second re-read of the series, and considering my favorite characters are Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton and Littlefinger, she does kind of feel out of place.



Well Han I wasn't really "hatin" on your stance anyway. I was merely just throwing my own opinion out that I have never come to find any bit of like for her.

I completely understand your view about what she has gone through though. 



Nae'blis said:


> Wasn't it Ramsay who actually killed the millers/crofters children? I'm not sure but I think it was. Theon authorised it though, sure, which is creepy since the youngest one may well have been his own child.



I am not sure but if you are referring to my talking about Theon deserving death I was talking about him being a turn cloak and everything. Even if he didn't kill the kids he deserved death. Flaying seems harsh for pretty much any crime outside of being punished for flaying someone else.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 28, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Um... you do realize that she is guilty of all of those crimes, right?



Yes, but that does not in any way justify the Septas parading her naked through the city and declaring her to be guilty; that was clearly them displaying their own arrogance and attempting to make Cersei feel guilty and shameful. Plus, I believe that not everything that Cersei did was a crime; not everyone may approve of i*c*st, but it is Cersei's choice with whom she engages in sexual activity, and not the business of anyone else; and as for attempting to frame Margaery for extramarital affairs, was there not strong evidence in favor of that (Margaery was having a maester brew moon tea, which is used to prevent pregnancy)? Plus, Martin was portraying the scene from Cersei's point of view, which means that the audience is supposed to sympathize with her, not with anyone else; see the "protagonist-centered morality" trope on _TV Tropes_ for more information.


----------



## Gooba (Jul 28, 2011)

[sp]Actually i*c*st is high treason when it is done as adultery against the king, and when it is used to usurp the crown from the rightful king (Stannis) by way of deception (Joff's claim) and straight up murder (killing Robert).[/sp]


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

abcd said:


> no time skips.


Thanks abc!


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, but that does not in any way justify the Septas parading her naked through the city and declaring her to be guilty; that was clearly them displaying their own arrogance and attempting to make Cersei feel guilty and shameful. Plus, I believe that not everything that Cersei did was a crime; not everyone may approve of i*c*st, but it is Cersei's choice with whom she engages in sexual activity, and not the business of anyone else; and as for attempting to frame Margaery for extramarital affairs, was there not strong evidence in favor of that (Margaery was having a maester brew moon tea, which is used to prevent pregnancy)? Plus, Martin was portraying the scene from Cersei's point of view, which means that the audience is supposed to sympathize with her, not with anyone else; see the "protagonist-centered morality" trope on _TV Tropes_ for more information.



Cersei deserved all that shit and more. What she got was far more lenient then the common folk get.


----------



## masamune1 (Jul 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, but that does not in any way justify the Septas parading her naked through the city and declaring her to be guilty; that was clearly them displaying their own arrogance and attempting to make Cersei feel guilty and shameful. Plus, I believe that not everything that Cersei did was a crime; not everyone may approve of i*c*st, but it is Cersei's choice with whom she engages in sexual activity, and not the business of anyone else; and as for attempting to frame Margaery for extramarital affairs, was there not strong evidence in favor of that (Margaery was having a maester brew moon tea, which is used to prevent pregnancy)? Plus, Martin was portraying the scene from Cersei's point of view, which means that the audience is supposed to sympathize with her, not with anyone else; see the "protagonist-centered morality" trope on _TV Tropes_ for more information.



I don't think you understand what that trope is about.


----------



## The Imp (Jul 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, but that does not in any way justify the Septas parading her naked through the city and declaring her to be guilty; that was clearly them displaying their own arrogance and attempting to make Cersei feel guilty and shameful. Plus, I believe that not everything that Cersei did was a crime; not everyone may approve of i*c*st, but it is Cersei's choice with whom she engages in sexual activity, and not the business of anyone else; and as for attempting to frame Margaery for extramarital affairs, was there not strong evidence in favor of that (Margaery was having a maester brew moon tea, which is used to prevent pregnancy)? Plus, Martin was portraying the scene from Cersei's point of view, which means that the audience is supposed to sympathize with her, not with anyone else; see the "protagonist-centered morality" trope on _TV Tropes_ for more information.



It does. That's her punishment for sleeping around. It's harsh by our standards but common in a medieval setting. And can you really blame the septas for being cold towards Cersei. She's a manipulative cunt who was claiming she was innocent of all charges when they had testimony from Lancel and others that she was atleast guilty of adultry. 

It doesn't matter if you approve/disapprove of i*c*st. It's a bigger crime in this case because her children are born of i*c*st and not the rightful heirs of Robert Baratheon. 

There's little and less that proves Margaery is guilty of her crimes. Yes, she did use moon tea but Cersei came to her own conclusions before Pycelle could explain his reason for giving it to her. It might have been for someone else or it might be for regulating her period like birth control is sometimes used today. Cersei planted all of the witnesses and tortured the bard till his story matched what she wanted to hear because she knew she didn't have enough evidence to prove she's guilty. 

Cersei is lucky that Qyburn completed unGregor in time and that Arys died or she would be getting her head cut off very soon.


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## masamune1 (Jul 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> If all that is true, then why is Martin writing the scene from her perspective, to make the audience sympathize with her, and feel her pain? Would it not be better to write the story in way that did not at all portray Cersei in a sympathetic manner, so that no reader would be upset over her treatment?
> 
> 
> 
> In that case, what trope would be most appropriate for describing the idea that the audience is supposed to perceive the protagonist as the hero and being "right," while anyone who opposes the protagonist is "wrong?" Surely, I cannot be the _only_ user here, among several thousand, who feels sorry for Cersei and her suffering?



I think you are; I haven't hear a single other person on this thread, or anyone else who has read it, that thinks Martin was trying to make her seem like she was in the right. Besides that no matter how vile and horrible you right a character, most of the time, someone will be on their side for whatever reason. Worse people than Cersei have their supporters.

Not to mention that Cersei getting a POV does not make her a "protagonist". Plenty of outright villains in other works get their own POV and they are still not a protagonist. Protagonist centred morality is about the entire story being biased in favour of the main character, regardless of what they do or how hypocritical they act, and anyway even if _ASoIaF_ has main chatacters, they are not going to be Cersei.


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## Fierce (Jul 28, 2011)

I actually felt bad for Cersei during her walk. It's just the way Martin writes. I still hate her fucking guts and think she deserved it, and I forgive nothing that she's done. I don't think it humbled her either.


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## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I still do not approve of her punishment, so I hope that you can respect my opinion on this subject, as I respect yours.



Oh no doubt.No prob. Do you feel the same for the people, The many people she sent to Qyburn to be tortured and experimented on?


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## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



What yall think? Is the Night Watch toast?


----------



## KidTony (Jul 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, but that does not in any way justify the Septas parading her naked through the city and declaring her to be guilty; that was clearly them displaying their own arrogance and attempting to make Cersei feel guilty and shameful. Plus, I believe that not everything that Cersei did was a crime; not everyone may approve of i*c*st, but it is Cersei's choice with whom she engages in sexual activity, and not the business of anyone else; and as for attempting to frame Margaery for extramarital affairs, was there not strong evidence in favor of that (Margaery was having a maester brew moon tea, which is used to prevent pregnancy)? Plus, Martin was portraying the scene from Cersei's point of view, which means that the audience is supposed to sympathize with her, not with anyone else; see the "protagonist-centered morality" trope on _TV Tropes_ for more information.




i*c*st is a crime in Westeros. Your views on it are irrelevant, by Westerosi law, it is a crime. So is cheating on the king, killing/ordering the death of the king, killing/ordering the death of children, and killing/ordering the death of the high septon. All illegal in Westeros.


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## KidTony (Jul 28, 2011)

Cersei had a baby girl killed. She had many other children (bastards of Robert) put to death or sold into slavery. She had innocent people given to quyburn to be experimented upon, tortured, and killed. 

Theon suffer flaying and gelding for lesser evils (he did less stuff than Cersei did, and unlike her actually felt bad about them), and Jaime lost a hand for much lesser evils. Yet you think walking a couple of miles naked is too harsh a punishment? WTF

If the world was fair, Cersei should have been put to death for half the stuff she's done.


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## KidTony (Jul 28, 2011)

Also, if anyone can find some Wyman Manderlay art, i want it!!!


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 28, 2011)

cha-uzu said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> What yall think? Is the Night Watch toast?




*Spoiler*: __ 



I think Castle Black is fucked. Unless the Crows poisoned the Wilding's food, there's going to be hell to pay - they loved Jon 






DemonDragonJ said:


> I still do not approve of her punishment, so I hope that you can respect my opinion on this subject, as I respect yours.



For what they put her on the walk for - the adultery - it definitely was too much and overblown. But for all her other crimes and shit we know she's done, it felt good man. 

--

Winds of Winter speculation:


*Spoiler*: __ 



This book is going to be front-loaded as all hell. The resolving of the Meereen battle, Stannis and Bolton's war, Cersie's trial, Connington storming Storm's End, what's happening at Castle Black . . .


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

Wait is someone trying to argue that Cersei doesn't deserve punishment? lol

About this "kings blood has power" stuff, I guess that the divine right of kings where they are appointed by the very god(s) holds true for them?


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 28, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Cersei had a baby girl killed. She had many other children (bastards of Robert) put to death or sold into slavery. She had innocent people given to quyburn to be experimented upon, tortured, and killed.



In no way am I denying the deeds that Cersei committed, but I still believe that she should not have been humiliated as she was. Or, perhaps, I am confused as to why I actually am feeling sympathy for her, despite all the deeds that she did, and do not want to admit that she is wrong, as doing so would make me, by extension, wrong for sympathizing with her. Is it wrong that I feel sorry for her?



KidTony said:


> Theon suffer flaying and gelding for lesser evils (he did less stuff than Cersei did, and unlike her actually felt bad about them), and Jaime lost a hand for much lesser evils. Yet you think walking a couple of miles naked is too harsh a punishment? WTF



It is too harsh when the entire city is present, taunting and insulting her, seeing every inch of her body, leaving her completely exposed and vulnerable. At least there were few witnesses to Jaime and Theon's sufferings, and they can regain their dignity. The only way for Cersei to regain her dignity is for every person who witnessed her parade through the street to die, so that no memory of her shame and humiliation remains.



KidTony said:


> If the world was fair, Cersei should have been put to death for half the stuff she's done.



Death would have been far more merciful for her, in my mind. I believe that it is better to die with one's honor and dignity intact that live in shame. Plus, everything that Cersei did, she did for her son, Tommen. What about when Catelyn acted irrational to save her children? What is wrong with a mother seeking to protect her children?

Another time when I felt sympathy for a defeated villain was
*Spoiler*: __ 



Azula in _Avatar: The Last Airbender,_ as she lost her friends, her brother, her mother's love, and her father's approval, and even her sanity. Death would have been far more merciful for both her and Ozai, in my mind.


In my opinion, if Martin had wanted there to be no sympathy for Cersei's downfall and humiliation, he should have had her die, fighting and defiant to the end, as happened with Freeza in _Dragon Ball_ or
*Spoiler*: _Bleach spoiler_ 



Aizen in _Bleach;_


in my mind, both of those villains' downfalls were excellently written, causing me to not feel even a trace of sympathy for them and even cheering their defeat.


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## Serp (Jul 28, 2011)

Wait are people actually arguing about how much of an evil whore Cersei is.

 Never change NF, never change.

Now on another topic. Rhaegar


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## KidTony (Jul 28, 2011)

I guess to DDJ the walking naked humilation is worse than maiming, flaying, and gelding, or death as a punishment. If he sees it like that, then nothing wrong with having that opinion. To me, the humilation is no where near as bad as these other 'punishments', and it's an example of 'geting off light'.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

Most people I know loved Rhaegar from the beginning in spite of Stark/Robert. For someone who hasn't even been on-screen it's surprising he is one of my favourite characters.


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## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I think Castle Black is fucked. Unless the Crows poisoned the Wilding's food, there's going to be hell to pay - they loved Jon




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes I thought that was the most poorly thought out decision I ever saw... And them yelling FOR THE WATCH just....


I wonder did they remember the giant that was umm picking the knight apart and the other 1000 wildlings.....nearby


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## cha-uzu (Jul 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> It is too harsh when the entire city is present, taunting and insulting her, seeing every inch of her body, leaving her completely exposed and vulnerable. *At least there were few witnesses to Jaime and Theon's sufferings*, and *they can regain their dignity.* The only way for Cersei to regain her dignity is for every person who witnessed her parade through the street to die, so that no memory of her shame and humiliation remains.



Yo this HAS to be a joke yo LOL.

Fingers, toes, teeth and hands don't grow back... But you can always buy new clothes. 

... specially with Lannister money.


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## Han Solo (Jul 28, 2011)

I swear I just can't read a Victarion chapter without bursting into laughter halfway through. I think he may have even surpassed Stannis as the funniest character in the series.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

DDJ trolling once more. What is Cersei's punishment compared to actual physical maiming? The crimes she has been accused of deserve death. The Septons are taking the piss.


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## The Imp (Jul 28, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Most people I know loved Rhaegar from the beginning in spite of Stark/Robert. For someone who hasn't even been on-screen it's surprising he is one of my favourite characters.



For me I think it's mostly because of the nostalgic tone whenever someone talks about Rhaegar or Robert's Rebellion. So many characters, especially in A Game of Thrones, reminisce about the past and how great it was. The way characters talk about it you wish you got to see it first hand. I think that's one of the reasons why I love that added Robert/Cersei scene in GoT.

Legends rose and fell and only 15 years later the Seven Kingdoms have turned into a shit hole. It was probably just a shitty and full of backstabbing cunts then but the way the war is spoken of it's like all of the chivalry in Westeros died alongside Rhaegar. "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought honorably, Rhaegar fought nobly. And Rhaegar died." is still one of my favourite quotes.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

Maybe, but the POV characters consider him shit except for Daenerys. That was ser Jorah who said that. The few sympathetic POV's have been grudging.


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## masamune1 (Jul 28, 2011)

The Imp said:


> For me I think it's mostly because of the nostalgic tone whenever someone talks about Rhaegar or Robert's Rebellion. So many characters, especially in A Game of Thrones, reminisce about the past and how great it was. The way characters talk about it you wish you got to see it first hand. I think that's one of the reasons why I love that added Robert/Cersei scene in GoT.
> 
> Legends rose and fell and only 15 years later the Seven Kingdoms have turned into a shit hole. It was probably just a shitty and full of backstabbing cunts then but the way the war is spoken of it's like all of the chivalry in Westeros died alongside Rhaegar. "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought honorably, Rhaegar fought nobly. And Rhaegar died." is still one of my favourite quotes.



I think they are more nostalgic for Rhaegar personally than for the era in generally. After all, the King at the time was Aery's, and we all know how that turned out.

That said, it probably really wasn't as shitty back then as it was now, and while it might have had just as many backstabbing cunts they were probably in less of a position to do real damage since you had a generally stable and established monarchy and, if you were in the wrong family or didn't have the right connections or influence, backstabbing would only get you so much. Not to mention you have Tywin Lannister running a smooth economy (and, for a time, even still _smiling)_.

Now you've got a bunch of different Lord's and would-be King's fighting bloody wars with one another; the backstabbing cunts can and will do things like slaughter your entire clan at a wedding, or have people murdered to forment chaos; the Night Watch up North has gone to hell at the worst possible time as an invasion of evil ice demons is immenent; the economy is in the toilet so the masses are starving, thanks to armies and knights rampaging through the farms and crops; everyone has a girl across the sea invading with an army of dragons and barbarians niggling at the back of their mind. The Queen Regent is nuts, the King is a coddled boy, the Bolton's are taking over the North, and to top it all off, Winter is Coming.

No matter how you spin it, the past was better than the present. Its no wonder people are nostalgic for better times, and while the times back then might not have been as rosy as they imagined, they are still not as dark as the times right now.


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## Cyphon (Jul 28, 2011)

I really have no feelings towards Rhaegar. Honestly I picture a POV from him being a little like Quentyn Martel. 

On the note of flashbacks in general I really enjoy hearing about the old KG with Dayne and them. They sound so awesome.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

she deserves death: she gets that piss poor punishment. what are we talking about? it doesn't really matter what you think since even by westerosi law she got off easy,


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## Serp (Jul 28, 2011)

The way Rhaegar is described alone makes me love him. Everyone apart from Robert seems to think he was hot shit.

Even Cersei wanted a peace of Rhaegar. He was a bookworm (beta) became almost as great a knight has his ancestor Prince Aemon. He had all the great Targ qualities with none of the crazy, he would have made a great king, until he fell in love. And like a true man, he choose love over duty. If Y.Griff is anything like Rhaegar I would be happy, and it seems they are modelling him after him so its all good. 


With Cersei I don't see why DDJ thinks it that much of a deal, dozens of guests must have seen her naked at the Bedding ritual when she married Robert anyways.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

you sure love them spoilers, tag them if you will.

Rhaegar was attractive and heir to the Iron Thone. Cersei loves power if nothing else.


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## Serp (Jul 28, 2011)

What spoilers? 

And Cersei when marrying Robert who was the King (so alot of power), couldn't imagine him as Jaime because they were too different but instead imagined him as Rhaegar.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

she didn't hate him until he called her Lyanna while fucking. it didn't hurt that he fucked every whore from the Trident to Kings Landing.

And as for spoilers: you mean to say Jon Connington, Manderly, and Daario were mentioned before this book?


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 28, 2011)

I finally finished the book today!
*Spoiler*: __ 



I see that Quentyn died, Daenerys is still alive, and Jon may be alive or dead after being attack by his brothers of the Night's Watch. Quentyn's death and Daenerys' survival did not surprise me greatly, but the Watch's betrayal certainly did; why did his brothers attack him?: Did they dislike his idea of opposing the Boltons? If so, why did they not simply seize him and lock him in a cell; he never treated them poorly or cruelly, so I find their behavior to be very sinister and cowardly.

I see that Varys has returned to King's Landing: where has he been, and what has he been doing, for all this time, since he help release Tyrion? And who is he supporting; Cersei, Daenerys, or young Aegon? Kevan apparently dying was very unfortunate, but this book was actually quite lacking in major character deaths, compared to the previous four, and he was rather old, so his death was not a complete surprise.

I wonder if the _Khalasar_ that approached Daenerys is friendly or hostile, and I also wonder what shall become of Asha and Theon.

I did not immediately notice that the bad, Abel, was Mance, until I read some of the posts in this thread, but that was a very clever disguise. I wonder how Ramsay discovered them? Mance is far too clever to accidentally expose himself, and I am certain that the spearwives accompanying him were, as well. I also did not notice that it was suggested that Lord Manderly was making pies, or that Ramsay threatened to castrate Theon. I now have noticed the first horrifying revelation, but in what scene did Ramsay threaten to castrate Theon?

I definitely believe that Ramsay's letter to Jon was false, to anger Jon and provoke him into attack, but, as Jon pointed out, Ramsay did have several details correct, so I am worried that he may actually have defeated Stannis and captured Mance. However, I cannot tolerate the fact that he _dared_ to refer to himself as "the trueborn heir of Winterfell;" how can he have that level of audacity? I hope that Jon crushes him and his pride, and on that subject, I do not believe that Jon shall die, or remain dead, as he is still too important a character to permanently kill, currently. I definitely believe that that chapter from Jon's perspective should have been the final chapter before the epilogue, for maximum dramatic impact.


Overall, I enjoyed this book immensely, although I am displeased that it took me twelve days to finish it. I would place it at equal quality with _A Game of Thrones_ and _A Clash of Kings,_ below _A Storm of Swords_ but above _A Feast for Crows._ I now am eager for the next book, but it likely shall not be finished for several more years, so I am glad that there shall be multiple other fantasy books to read before then.


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## Serp (Jul 28, 2011)

I thought you meant in my last post I'm sorry.  And Daario and Manderly was mentioned before this book, I'll give you Connington though.

And everyone else mentioning Theons flaying Gelding and Cersei's punishment outside of tags and you circle in on me :/

And even if she didn't hate him them, I can't remember where but she still said you often pretended Robert was Rhaegar so it wasn't about power completely.


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## KidTony (Jul 28, 2011)

Its been like two weeks, shoudn't we be able to start talking w/o spoilers by now? Most of the regulars are already done with the book anyway.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 28, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> With Cersei I don't see why DDJ thinks it that much of a deal, dozens of guests must have seen her naked at the Bedding ritual when she married Robert anyways.



Yes, but at that moment, she was the center of attention in a positive manner and was likely being supported and praised, not insulted and humiliated.

Now, it has been a while since I read the first book, so please refresh my memory: why did Sansa support Joffrey over Arya, and then later betray her father? And when was her marriage to Joffrey arranged? I do not recall that agreement ever being made on-screen (or would that be "on-page?"), so was it made in the background, somewhere?


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

Rhaegar fucking put down his sword and pulled out a harp which made every woman cry. Ned said as much, his sister wept loudest, though Ned was grudging about it. He's like Aragorn, but somehow more awesome.


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## Serp (Jul 28, 2011)

Ah wait AFFC page 506 UK paperback when Jaime leaves KL to meet the Bloody Mummers, he meets Ronnet Connington and they talk about how Brienne was engaged to him. Jaime speaks of Jon Connington past, as Rhaegars best friend, about Griffins roost and about a shitload of things and then he smashs Ronnet in the mouth with the golden hand for insulting Brienne. 

 So yea you can't even have Connigton.



			
				 Nae said:
			
		

> Rhaegar fucking put down his sword and pulled out a harp which made  every woman cry. Ned said as much, his sister wept loudest, though Ned  was grudging about it. He's like Aragorn, but somehow more awesome.



I first read that as Rhaegar pulled out a *Hard*. I was about to rep you again lol.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 28, 2011)

editted for spelling lol. 





KidTony said:


> Its been like two weeks, shoudn't we be able to  start talking w/o spoilers by now? Most of the regulars are already done  with the book anyway.


Assuming everyone got the book on release and read through until now. I don't see why a month should be a problem.

Actually, who would be the Boromir of this series?


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## The Imp (Jul 28, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I finally finished the book today!
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: _ADwD_ 



Jon was going against their norms the whole book. The Watch has been fighting the Wildlings probably for millenia while the Others had retreated. They consider them enemies and have problems with Jon letting them man the castles and move South of the Wall. Jon has only been on the Wall for about 2 years and spent a part of that time amongst the Wildlings. He's more familiar with them and their traditions. It's harder for other men to set aside their grudges. They didn't agree with him but before the last chapter they hadn't openly rebelled against him either. 

Jon deciding to march South and battle Bolton crossed a line for them. He's not supposed to take part in Southern politics but now he's decided to wage open war on them. He's willing to drag the Watch with him for his own personal reasons. It's out of character for him and goes completely against what he learned in the first 3 books. Also they can't throw him in the cells. He's the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He has his own supporters and thousands of Wildlings backing him up. He'd be let loose within the hour. The only solution was killing him, taking him out of the game completely. Of course that's not gonna work because Martin is likely to bring Jon back to life.

As for Varys, he's supporting himself. Aegon is his puppet King that he's going to put on the throne. I guess he's indirectly helping cersei but only because he wants her to fuck up more. I wonder where he's been hiding too. Also I wonder how long it's been since the end of ASoS. It feels like its been a year at best.

We've seen how big of a monster Ramsay is. I don't think he captured Mance but he probably tortured one of the spearwives to find out who he really was. After that he has a morsel of truth to put in his letter which will make Jon question if the letter is truly real.


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## Serp (Jul 28, 2011)

Theon is Boromir


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## The Imp (Jul 28, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Actually, who would be the Boromir of this series?




*Spoiler*: _ADwD_ 



Theon? He's a close and faithful friend to his brother, captain, King(Robb). Until he royally fucks up in the pursuit of power(betrayal/capture of Winterfell). He then redeems himself(saving Jeyne) and dies(haven't gotten here yet but he suffers a fate worse than death thanks to Ramsay).


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jul 29, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _ADwD_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



That wasn't really out of charater though. By choosing to face Ramsey in the field, Jon openly sacrificed his honor and his vows, specifically to protect the Watch - something he made a habit of by the end of Clash. And by pointing out the Watch took no part in Souther Wars, he made it a point that he would not drag any of his brothers with him to the South. He gave them a choice. And if any of them did choose to take up his cause, they were drowned out by the Wildings.

Which is why it was so fucking stupid to murder him out in the open like that, infront of everybody. The Wildings loved his ass. For the Watch? There aint gonna be no Watch no more. Not at Castle Black. 

Not unless Mel does some freaky magic shit to calm everyone down.


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## User Name (Jul 29, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I finally finished the book today!
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: _ADWD_ 




Ramsay already castrated Theon. 

At one point Theon thought: "He has only taken toes and fingers and *that other thing.*"

And when Ramsay commanded Theon to arouse Jeyne: 'For a moment he did not understand. ?I ... do you mean ... m?lord, *I have no* ... I ...? ?With your mouth,? Lord Ramsay said.'


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## masamune1 (Jul 29, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, but at that moment, she was the center of attention in a positive manner and was likely being supported and praised, not insulted and humiliated.
> 
> Now, it has been a while since I read the first book, so please refresh my memory: why did Sansa support Joffrey over Arya, and then later betray her father? And when was her marriage to Joffrey arranged? I do not recall that agreement ever being made on-screen (or would that be "on-page?"), so was it made in the background, somewhere?



She sided with Joffrey because she thought he was a genuine Knight, and she was enamoured by the fact that he was the crown prince. He was all her romantic ideals incarnate....or so she thought. She sided against Arya because she had always disliked how she rebelled against those ideals, and Sansa's ideals about ladyhood and stuff. 

Basically she was a naive, stupid girl who thought she was living in a fairy tail world, and put her faith in the wrong prince in a big, big way. The fact that she and Arya had butted heads for forever was just fuel to the fire. 

As for betraying her father, as I recall she was just duped by Cersei, and didn't fully appreciate what she was doing. She probably thought she was stopping her dad from making a terrible mistake that could get him exiled or even executed for treason...and to be fair if it wasn't for Joffrey, she would have done just that, since Cersei kept her promise about not killing Eddard (too bad Joffrey didn't).

I don't think there was ever any formal arrangement about Joffrey and Sansa getting married, and obviously Sansa's parents at least were not too wild about marrying her to a Lannister. But I think it was generally assumed that thats how things were going, especially since they all thought he was son to Robert.


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## uchihasurvivor (Jul 29, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I recall that scene, but in it, Ramsay asked, "Does she make your cock hard?" Was Ramsay tormenting Theon with that question, if he had already castrated him?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah I remember that part was weird because I was shocked when I read he was castrated. May he didn't castrate him but perform a circumcision.


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## cha-uzu (Jul 29, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> It is not a joke; with missing body parts, one can make a story of how they were lost, such as bravely in battle, and no one shall question it, but with Cersei's "walk of shame," she cannot deny that that was her, pretend that it was another woman, as there were too many witnesses.




Still...


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## cha-uzu (Jul 29, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> IAnd everyone else mentioning *Theons flaying Gelding and Cersei's punishment outside *of tags and you circle in on me :/



Yeah I know i did that in my convo with DDJ. I got sucked into it and didn't realize until it was too late lol


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## cha-uzu (Jul 29, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: _ADwD_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I agree he went against the norms no doubt. But, I believe they just couldn't advance past that dogmatic view of the watch vs. the wildlings even after thier forces got absolutly decimated by the Others. They did not realize it was far larger then thier petty war with the Wildling who shared the same enemy. What Jon did was what Kings, and great leaders do. He saw that the watch was very weak. Whats it like 200 or 300 of them? no way they hold the wall with that number. And, the wildlings would have died and made the others even stronger. The moves Jon made were so crystal clear and correct. The wall was not put there to keep the Wildlings out... It was meant to keep the others out.

Now the Bastards letter, caused two problems... Stannis being "defeated" means nothing would stop Ramseys threat of coming to kill him from coming to fruition. As well as Jons own feelings for his little sister. It was a big decision that the Watch would have a hard time swallowing.

Now, what the watch did by killing him pretty did more harm to the security of the wall and realm then Jon could have ever done. You now have a battle at the wall where you (the Watch) will not survive... But at least you bloodied your dagger! Thats all that mattered! It was the stupidest idea ever. Yeah Jon went against all thier wishes but they never offered any alternative other then their own anger and hate towards the Wildlings. No council which Jon commented on in one of his chapters. 

Varys is like the 007 of westeros lol


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## cha-uzu (Jul 29, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> As for betraying her father, as I recall she was just duped by Cersei, and didn't fully appreciate what she was doing. She probably thought she was stopping her dad from making a terrible mistake that could get him exiled or even executed for treason...and to be fair if it wasn't for Joffrey, she would have done just that, since Cersei kept her promise about not killing Eddard (too bad Joffrey didn't).
> 
> I don't think there was ever any formal arrangement about Joffrey and Sansa getting married, and obviously Sansa's parents at least were not too wild about marrying her to a Lannister. But I think it was generally assumed that thats how things were going, especially since they all thought he was son to Robert.



No she wasn't duped by Cersei.. She didn't want to leave kingslanding. Lord Eddard told her he planned to send her and Arya back to winterfell and told her he would find someone more suitable to marry. She didn't like that so she ran to Cersei.

Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey when Robert came to Winterfell. I will search for the exact chapter.


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## The Imp (Jul 29, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon didn't forsake his vows when Ned was imprisoned or killed. He didn't forsake his vows when Robb was murdered or when he found out Winterfell was sacked and Bran and Rickon dead. But now he chooses to forsake his vows when it's Arya. Ramsay even says he doesn't have her in the letter. Jon deserted in ACoK to help the Watch. This time it's harder to tell because he has a large personal incentive to leave. Add the fact that he knows that they are on the brink of an Others invasion but he's decided to march South to spill their own blood. It begs the question is Jon really deserting for the Watch? I don't think so which is why I think it's out of character. 

Edit: Out of character might be the wrong choice of wording. It's more like character regression. This is something AGoT/ACoK Jon would do.






cha-uzu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It didn't help that Jon sent all of his friends away.


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## cha-uzu (Jul 29, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I wonder what the signifigance of the Giant picking apart that knight? I mean how did that jump off? If that was meant to cause a commotion to slay Jon, does that mean the Queens men were in on it?


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## The Imp (Jul 29, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the signifigance of the Giant picking apart that knight? I mean how did that jump off? If that was meant to cause a commotion to slay Jon, does that mean the Queens men were in on it?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon was talking about how it's Wildling custom to steal a woman instead of being betrothed to them. The knight was trying to sneak into her tower to steal her, but Wun Wun was stationed at the bottom. I don't remember Jon's reason for putting him there but it might have been to protect Val. The Knight probably thought he could take on the Giant and kill him because he was in his way, and that clearly failed.


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## cha-uzu (Jul 29, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Jon was talking about how it's Wildling custom to steal a woman instead of being betrothed to them. The knight was trying to sneak into her tower to steal her, but Wun Wun was stationed at the bottom. I don't remember Jon's reason for putting him there but it might have been to protect Val. The Knight probably thought he could take on the Giant and kill him because he was in his way, and that clearly failed.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Ahhhh yes, how could I forget that. Thanks yeah. SMH Giants like 14 feet tall LOL All for some cheek...


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## Nois (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm waiting for the clash of kings to come in the mail... damn hell the pain of waiting is excruciating.

I also hope Martin's life expectancy is fucking long, or I swear I'm gonna rage if he doesn't finish the series.


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## dream (Jul 29, 2011)

> I also hope Martin's life expectancy is fucking long, or I swear I'm gonna rage if he doesn't finish the series.



Prepare for the worst though as long as new doesn't get stuck writing a book we should be safe from a premature end to the series.


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## Lord Snow (Jul 29, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



The main problem is that the Wall is defenseless from the south and thus if Ramsay did attack he would lay waste to the Watch. No matter what personal incentives he may have, Jon cannot allow the Watch to suffer an attack from the South when the are on brink of being attacked by the Others from the North. You may see it as a regression, but what other choice did he have?


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## Dionysus (Jul 29, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon's problem is he didn't play politics very well. Convince those who can be, explain yourself, use some propaganda. If he felt it best to go south to answer the threat in the letter, there had to be a reasonable way to spin it to the various people who'd be pissed to hear it. That didn't occur; instead we had a rash change of plans.

Being sucked into the conflicts of the realm were being thrust on him. It shows a flaw in the vows, really.

(Of course, Jon had to die to be reborn.)


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## Lord Snow (Jul 30, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I agree that his decision to go south happened way too fast. I think it would have come across better if he had gotten the letter in an earlier chapter because we could have seen him consulting with others then make his decision. Instead we get Jon making a decision without any consultation and it all comes off as a bit rash and unlike the Jon we saw earlier in the books.
However I ultimately don't really see Jon being able to make any other decision as he could not allow Ramsay to attack the Wall but he would have at least probably gotten others to see what the logic behind his decision was.


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## cha-uzu (Jul 30, 2011)

Lord Snow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I agree but I do wonder why consult them? All he'd gotten from them were bitter comments about the wildlings?


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## Lord Snow (Jul 30, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I agree but I do wonder why consult them? All he'd gotten from them were bitter comments about the wildlings?




*Spoiler*: __ 



True. However as a leader you have to make people feel that they have a say, otherwise they may resent you. Ultimately Jon would have probably come to the same decision but maybe...just maybe, Bowen Marsh and the others wouldn't have tried to kill him.


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## User Name (Jul 30, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _about Jon's decision_ 




I agree with  guy:


> Jon's arc in ADWD was very subtly written and tons of people have misunderstood it.
> 
> First of all, Jon interfered with Northern politics repeatedly throughout the book, supporting Stannis and trying to undermine the Boltons. He advised Stannis to attack Deepwood Motte instead of the Dreadfort and even told him how to whip up local support. He sent Mance to kidnap Ramsay's bride (a political act that would severely damage Ramsay's claim). He even decided to lock up a Karstark over a marital dispute. He rationalizes these so well that most readers see nothing wrong with them.
> 
> ...



Jon's decision could be argued as necessary to the survival of the Night's Watch but when he consciously made that decision, he was thinking of Arya more.


 



DemonDragonJ said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I recall that scene, but in it, Ramsay asked, "Does she make your cock hard?" Was Ramsay tormenting Theon with that question, if he had already castrated him?



*Spoiler*: __ 




Ramsay was mocking him. Immediately following that, Ramsay says Theon isn't even a man. If Theon isn't castrated then what does "that other thing" and "I have no" refer to?


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## Dionysus (Jul 30, 2011)

User Name said:


> *Spoiler*: _about Jon's decision_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



One thing I've stated a few times (and I will again) is that Jon's arc shows that the Night's Watch vows are certainly not made for the situation that Westeros finds itself. (I think some parts are just a bit dumb to begin with, but, for the sake of the story I'll leave them be.) And Jon was more drawn into political interference in part to help the Watch. The only power who's come to help is about to make a stupid decision, what would you do? The Bolton's would have won then, more than likely, and will they aid the Wall?

What gets me a bit... Why didn't Jon (or Mormont) plead for those 3000 clansmen to come help? He never even brought it up till strategize with Stannis. Even 100, 500, 1000. They appeared to be uninvolved with Robb's war. I'd figure some would take it seriously if the Watch came telling them they can't hold against the threat.

Perhaps Martin intended this as the "keep the vow" course. I might continue along this line of thought, but Martin hates fan fiction and may threaten to sue.

At the very end it might have been Jon leaving more for Arya than anything else, but at that point Jon became a liability for the Watch. So, reasons unnecessary. And, as I stated, the original motives for helping Stannis can be interpreted as the best course for the Watch, ultimately. One step, two steps (stopping a marriage of a Bolton ally), and it only leads south. Of course, the "vows" say otherwise, but those vows can stick it up their airy ass.

Martin seems to want Jon to meddle in Northern politics. He's good at it. Now he's dead, to be reborn as Azor Ahai. Or, born as Azor Ahai Reborn. No vows now; Jon can settle the North because "Winter is Coming". Or "Winter Came".


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## FitzChivalry (Jul 31, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Opinions on Jon in ADWD_ 



Jon had to go to Ramsay Bolton. What other option was there? We know how vindictive a bastard that this Bolton Bastard really is. He's a sadistic creep who takes what he wants, when he wants, and will eliminate anything or anyone that interferes in his plans (hello, Bolton's other son). Because of Jon's decision to let Melisandre send Mance to the Wall to reclaim Arya, Ramsay would have marched on the Wall. I'd put everything I own on that one. What options did Jon have? He needed to meet Bolton on his own with wildling support so as to not entangle the Watch any further in his personal hang-ups. If he was breaking an oath, it was him alone that was doing it, as he thought to himself.

I like the Dionysus quote. I'll agree with that one too. Jon rode south for his family, for Winterfell. I love that he's not a Ned clone. Ned would have stayed, probably, if he had taken those vows. Jon was resolved to leave, which I think makes him a much more interesting character (and he was already my favorite).  Jon being ousted from the Night's Watch looks to have been long in the making now, if you recall the past book. The first alarm bell was when Jon heard Robb was riding for war, Jon left to go join Robb, to fight with him, but was brought back and was reminded of the vows and shit. After that, I think he was a more willing, obedient black brother for a time after, was Jon Snow.

- I think the change started with the redhead. _Ygritte _was the beginning of it. Though he was acting on behalf of the Watch (and Qhorin's command), he first broke his vows with her. He was following orders, but he liked her, and fell in love with her. 
- In A Dance With Dragons, Jon was wrestling himself the entire way it seemed, between vows and family. The Stannis stuff the Dion quote summed up really well. Jon went above and beyond for Stannis in terms of counsel. He gave great advice because he really wanted Stannis to defeat the Boltons, who helped betray and murder Robb and others and took his family's home their own.

- For Arya, he tried convincing himself several times she wasn't her sister, and that killed him. And after a chapter or two, he gave up doing that. He went back to thinking of her as his sister and allowed the red woman to send Mance after her.

- He helped his Karstark cousin elude capture and married her off to protect her, taking part in non-NW duties again, much to the chagrin of top NW staff. Then he stopped her uncle Karstark from taking her back. He even locked him up indefinitely, with no timetable for his release.

- Riding south to confront Ramsay did it though. For Arya, for Winterfell, for his Stark family, he was about to risk breaking his oath entirely.

Firstly, I think he's alive, or survives ultimately. My tentative theory for now is that this sealed the deal with him breaking away from the Watch, though I could be easily wrong there. But time and again Jon has proved that adhering to oaths sworn isn't easy when it comes to family. 

Let's not forget his brother *Robb Stark's legitimization* letter and will with the seals of all the Lords loyal to the Starks fixing their seals to the parchment as witnesses. When Robb died, Jon became the new King in the North and the rightful Lord of Winterfell. Jon has his oaths, but it has been proven time and again that when he tries to be a Crow, the Wolves pull him back home. After the Red Wedding, Jon became Lord of Winterfell at the very least. He may have turned down Stannis' to becomes Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, several times, but he would he turn down his beloved brother? Now, where the fuck is the Mormont and Glover and Howland Reed. At least two of these people know of the letter and its contents. The North never forgets and northerners all over would rally to Jon's cause if he sought to restore Winterfell and put it back in his own hands, Stark hands.


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## Lucaniel (Jul 31, 2011)

one thing that especially puzzled me near the end of jon's arc


*Spoiler*: __ 



i don't get why he seemed to acquiesce to selyse on val's marriage. she certainly has little or no martial power on the wall to back up her presumptions, and i don't think she gets to arbitrate val's betrothals


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 31, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I found Queen Selyse's desire to tame Val and make her into a "proper lady" very humorous; if Selyse believes that she can domesticate Val, she will be very surprised, indeed.





Lucaniel said:


> one thing that especially puzzled me near the end of jon's arc
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I was wondering about that, myself, and I believe that it is because Jon wished to avoid generating any further hostility between himself and Stannis' followers.


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## Banhammer (Jul 31, 2011)

Cool book. Now to wait ten more years for the next one


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## Felix (Jul 31, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> Cool book. Now to wait ten more years for the next one



Unless he fucks up again, it won't take 10 years


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## dream (Jul 31, 2011)

Two and a half years is my guess as to when the next one comes out.

Hopeful wishing


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## Felix (Jul 31, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Two and a half years is my guess as to when the next one comes out.
> 
> Hopeful wishing



I'm aiming at the same thing
Before he crashed into the wall that was Feast and Dance, he was doing speedy releases of his books


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## Lucaniel (Jul 31, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I still do not approve of her punishment, so I hope that you can respect my opinion on this subject, as I respect yours.



cersei is a major cause of the war of the five kings, which has killed thousands upon thousands of people so far...because robert called her 'lyanna' in bed once. i'd reserve theon's fate for her.

btw did anyone else think the novel had far, far too many narrators/perspectives? it fragmented the narrative and made it unnecessarily hard to follow for me, especially given how pointless and antiseptic some of the narrators were - _areo hotah_? why not just use arianne again?


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## Fierce (Jul 31, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> cersei is a major cause of the war of the five kings, which has killed thousands upon thousands of people so far...because robert called her 'lyanna' in bed once. i'd reserve theon's fate for her.
> 
> btw did anyone else think the novel had far, far too many narrators/perspectives? it fragmented the narrative and made it unnecessarily hard to follow for me, especially given how pointless and antiseptic some of the narrators were - _areo hotah_? why not just use arianne again?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Actually, I'd say Littlefinger and Lysa are the major causes for the WotFK


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## Lucaniel (Jul 31, 2011)

Fierce said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I'd say Littlefinger and Lysa are the major causes for the WotFK



cersei undermined the stability of the regime with her illegitimate heirs, _killed robert_ and proceeded to alienate virtually every decent advisor she had (further destabilising the regime and lengthening the war)

tbh i might be including the first and third to show her underlying negative influence, but, point of fact, none of this would have happened if robert hadn't died, so whichever way you look at it, cersei swung it from peace to war


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## User Name (Jul 31, 2011)

Felix said:


> I'm aiming at the same thing
> Before he crashed into the wall that was Feast and Dance, he was doing speedy releases of his books



With before, I doubt he took half a year off from writing the series like he is doing now.


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## Parallax (Jul 31, 2011)

well he's not writing right now because of the book tour.  But allegedly there's already 100 pages done on Winter.  I think it'll be 2-3 years seeing as how everyone got really upset about waiting 10 years for two books.


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## The Imp (Jul 31, 2011)

Parallax said:


> well he's not writing right now because of the book tour.  But allegedly there's already 100 pages done on Winter.  I think it'll be 2-3 years seeing as how everyone got really upset about waiting 10 years for two books.



He also had 500 pages done of ADWD when he published AFFC. I don't think those numbers really mean anything at this point. I expect he'll have book 6 done in 3 years though. A lot of the plot lines are converging so I don't think he'll face the same problems as ADWD. 

I think a major problem will be the POV's though. He's gonna have to ax some of them if he wants a tighter, faster paced story. 


*Spoiler*: _the POV's I would cut_ 



Right now he's got Victarion, Tyrion, Barristan and Dany in the same place. he's got to cut some (Victarion and Barristan) or give them all a limited amount of chapters.

Jaime and Brienne are together now so you can cut Brienne out. 

I don't know why he is still using Areo Hotah when he has Arianne there. If Dorne sides with Aegon, you also have Connigton to tell some of the story. 

Sam, Sansa and Bran are the only POV's in their location.

If Arya is trained in KL, you can cut Cersei or give her a limited number of chapters.

You can cut Asha because of Theon. Mel can take Jon's spot until he is revived(not sure how long this will take) then you can cut Mel. 

He's going to need a few Davos chapters to deal with the Rickon plot line too. 




He has too many POV's to juggle around.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 31, 2011)

The Imp said:


> He also had 500 pages done of ADWD when he published AFFC. I don't think those numbers really mean anything at this point. I expect he'll have book 6 done in 3 years though. A lot of the plot lines are converging so I don't think he'll face the same problems as ADWD.
> 
> I think a major problem will be the POV's though. He's gonna have to ax some of them if he wants a tighter, faster paced story.
> 
> ...



I have heard that this is the final book in which new perspectives will be introduced: the final two books will consist of only perspectives that have been seen before, which is a great relief to me.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 31, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> cersei undermined the stability of the regime with her illegitimate heirs, _killed robert_ and proceeded to alienate virtually every decent advisor she had (further destabilising the regime and lengthening the war)
> 
> tbh i might be including the first and third to show her underlying negative influence, but, point of fact, none of this would have happened if robert hadn't died, so whichever way you look at it, cersei swung it from peace to war


You know, I never understood why Cersei acted so guilty whenever the death of Jon Arryn was brought up. She had absolutely nothing to do with it but gets shifty every time.



			
				Fitz said:
			
		

> Let's not forget his brother *Robb Stark's legitimization*  letter and will with the seals of all the Lords loyal to the Starks  fixing their seals to the parchment as witnesses. When Robb died, Jon  became the new King in the North and the rightful Lord of Winterfell.


Was that letter ever brought up again after Robb argued with Catelyn about it? It was just before the Red Wedding, I don't remember hearing about it after that.


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## Serp (Jul 31, 2011)

The letter was ravened to Howland Reed IIRC.


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## The Imp (Jul 31, 2011)

He got all of his Lords to sign it. He argued with his mother earlier to make Jon his heir but we never get any confirmation. One of the Mormonts and Glovers took the letter and made for Greywater Watch before the Red Wedding. We haven't heard about it since. We'll probably find out in TWOW when all of these other lords make their claim for Winterfell. 

Boltons have married the fake Arya. The Vale will claim it through Sansa. Manderly is trying to find Rickon. There's been debates on whether Jeyne escaped and is carrying Robb's child. Who knows what Jon is going to do once he is revived. And finally we still have Robb's will. There's going to be an even bigger clusterfuck going on in the North soon.


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## uchihasurvivor (Jul 31, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> You know, I never understood why Cersei acted so guilty whenever the death of Robert Arryn was brought up. She had absolutely nothing to do with it but gets shifty every time.



Are you talking of Jon Arryn or Robert Baratheon? Because crazy Robert Arryn is still alive and kicking.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 31, 2011)

^yeah, Jon Arryn. silly me.

Well, yeah, the North is one big clusterfuck. Robb did make Jon the heir, I just don't remember anything about it after the initial decision and argument with Catelyn. Derp Targaryen said it was sent to Reed, so I wonder why he is holding his cock about it. Legitimisation can only be approved by the king, so with Robb dead, and no other king in the North, it's left to Dorne/Lannister/Euron to confirm it, unless Reed reveals the letter.


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## Serp (Jul 31, 2011)

Derp Targaryen


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## Nae'blis (Jul 31, 2011)

the D key is right next to S. Type too fast and don't spell check. No offence intended. Honest.

Song of Ice and Fire, Stark and Targaryen, no? It's funny that Red Priests say their motto is fire and blood, the same as Targaryen words. And that is the only god whose power is actually revealed.


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## Serp (Jul 31, 2011)

@Nae Yes I believe that too, hence above my Rhaegar and Lyanna avy, the line Ice(Stark) + Fire(Targ) = Snow (Jon)

And it makes sense for Targs to have that as a motto, blood and fire magic are the only ones proved to be real. R'hollor seems big in Essos where the Targs come from. And in Essos as DwD show, they dont put animals over their clothes and most likely dont have mottos, so Targs adopted Fire and Blood upon landing in Westeros. Seeing as even their Sigil was invented by Aegon I.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 31, 2011)

uchihasurvivor said:


> Are you talking of Jon Arryn or Robert Baratheon? Because crazy Robert Arryn is still alive and kicking.



For now... 

In fact, Littlefinger is counting on Robert Arryn dying, so he can marry Sansa to Harold Hardyng, the indirect next-of-kin to Robert, so that Sansa can be the ruler of both the Vale and Winterfell, a plan that I find to be very awesome; I cannot wait to see how it works out, although, knowing Martin, it may not work out as I wish for it to, or at all (although, if there was one person who had the skill to make such a scheme be successful, it is definitely Littlefinger).


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## Nae'blis (Jul 31, 2011)

As a woman she wouldn't be the ruler of anything.


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## Fierce (Jul 31, 2011)

In the Seven Kingdoms, the way it works is that a woman can not come before any male in the line of succession. If there are absolutely none, then the female will be queen, but she's expected to marry, at which point her husband becomes king and assumes control.


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## The Imp (Jul 31, 2011)

Cersei and Lysa were both ruling as regents. They don't have a claim to rule, their children do. If Sansa marries Harry the Heir, it'll be Harry ruling the Vale and North.

Dany's situation is completely different. She isn't planning on ruling through right but through conquest. It'll be interesting to see the power dynamic if she succeeds in conquering Westeros and remarries again.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 31, 2011)

^She can conquer Westeros, but she would need a marriage alliance to have any chance to holding it. I like how Dorne is the only place vocally loyal to House Targaryen, and also the only place where women can rule in their own right. That's the only place she can turn to.


DemonDragonJ said:


> Littlefinger believes otherwise.
> 
> What about Cersei? She was clearly the true authority in King's landing after Joffrey and Tywin were killed and Tyrion fled, as Tommen is too weak-willed and inexperienced to be the true ruler yet. What about Lysa? She clearly ruled the Vale after Jon Arryn died. And Maege Mormont and her daughter Dacey definitely did not answer to any man, nor does Brienne. And what about Daenerys, the Mother of Dragons? She most certainly is a ruler in her own right, or is at least attempting to be.


Have you been paying attention to anything in the books? Cersei isn't even heir to Casterly Rock even though she is older than Jaime, and even after Jaime refused it. Why do you think Cersei is so pissed off she wasn't born with a cock?





Serperion Targaryen said:


> And it makes sense for Targs to have that as a motto, blood and fire  magic are the only ones proved to be real. R'hollor seems big in Essos  where the Targs come from. And in Essos as DwD show, they dont put  animals over their clothes and most likely dont have mottos, so Targs  adopted Fire and Blood upon landing in Westeros. Seeing as even their  Sigil was invented by Aegon I.


I never considered that but it  makes sense. R'hllor's power started growing as the series began, Mel and others attribute that to the Others starting to rise again, but it may also just be the same as magic which became more potent when dragons came back.


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## abcd (Aug 1, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Might sound crackpot !

Is the Wall the song of Ice and fire??

1) Mel clearly states that she feels very powerful at the wall.
2) The wall keeps out the others, zombies and stuff Men are afraid of.
3) The wall is made of Ice ( Which we usually link to the great other and winter)

The wall made of Ice is giving power to the priestess of a fire god .....


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## cha-uzu (Aug 1, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Was that letter ever brought up again after Robb argued with Catelyn about it? It was just before the Red Wedding, I don't remember hearing about it after that.



From the book:
"He picked up a sheet of parchment. ?One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I?ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.?

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he?d planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he?d just caught her."

By order of the King in the North (Tho Dead) Jon is already Jon Stark.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 1, 2011)

abcd said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats a good Idea, but where would the fire come in at? The wall is Ice infused with Magic. Maybe its about how the wall comes down... hmmmm. I actually dig what Serperion Targaryen stated. about fire and ice = Jon.


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## abcd (Aug 1, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> Thats a good Idea, but where would the fire come in at? The wall is Ice infused with Magic. Maybe its about how the wall comes down... hmmmm. I actually dig what Serperion Targaryen stated. about fire and ice = Jon.



*Spoiler*: __ 




Fire comes in because the messengers of the fire god are feeling more powerful near this specific Ice while the Others are afraid of it (apparently) , though they are a part of winter....

So I think there is some sort of fire magic hidden under this Ice....

I think historically Brandon the builder or Azor Ahai I  made the 2 gods Rhllor and the Great Other form some peace treaty which created the magic of this wall ...... 

There are a lot of things that can happen to Jon
1) John has mild injuries but is not dead
2) Mel cures Jon 
3) Jon wargs into Ghost and comes back into Jon after some Magic 
4) Jon's dead body is burnt and He wargs into Stannis' dead body which is lying somewhere in the ice , Mel will then glamour him to look like Jon ( I hope)
5) Jon is Azor Ahai reborn into Stannis 
6 ) Jon becomes the great Other ( Something like Uncat only worse)

I think I should finish my reread (now at book 3)before I drop some theories here and at westros


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## Pineapples (Aug 1, 2011)

Finished Dance earlier pek


*Spoiler*: __ 



A few immediate thoughts:

Poor Kevan . His last dying thoughts were pretty sad. 
It was great to get into Barristan's head. Plot be damned, the white knight shall claim and mount Viserion.
I was practically squelling like a little girl when I realized I was reading an Arya chapter again. Additionally, her chapters felt like they were from a different book. I can't be the only person to feel some _Lies of Locke Lamora_ vibe from her chapters. 
 _ You have to know your name. _ Just chilling. When I think of _ A Dance With Dragons _, the first name that floats to my head is his.


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## Nois (Aug 1, 2011)

Hey guys, which of the books do you find the best?


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## Pineapples (Aug 1, 2011)

Nois said:


> Hey guys, which of the books do you find the best?


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## Corruption (Aug 1, 2011)

This by far. I just finished it, so I still have the last 2 to read.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 1, 2011)

pretty much


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## Jesus (Aug 1, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _ADWD_ 




There are a few things I think I picked on while reading, that were never really stated. Just wanted to know if anyone else saw these, maybe it is just me:


Theon was castrated by Ramsay :x

Did Manderly serve some Frey meat at that feast? He did mention the Rat Cook...

Connington was gay for Raeghar (not 100% positive, but there are too many hints)

And I think there was another one, but I forgot.


Was pretty shocked to see Jon die.  Oh well, Melisandre will raise him anyway.


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## Pineapples (Aug 2, 2011)

Jesus

*Spoiler*: __ 




Was Theon really castrated? I read that he lost some fingers, toes and teeth but I could've just missed that. 
I didn't really notice it when I first read it, but after reading the opinion of others, I was quite shocked and deviously awed by Manderly's pies.




Oh,

*Spoiler*: __ 



I hope Stannis didn't really perish. I had an unreasonable soft spot for that poor man. Plus, it would doubly heartbreaking for Davos if it were true.


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## Terra Branford (Aug 2, 2011)

Nois said:


> Hey guys, which of the books do you find the best?



The first book for me, and then A Storm of Swords, I think...


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## Serp (Aug 2, 2011)

Ok time for some points. And if I make you think then you have to visit my RP thread 


*Spoiler*: __ 




Rhaegar believed in the prince that was promised and the song of Ice and Fire. The PTWP bares alot of resemblance to AAR, and maybe even the Stallion that mounts the world. All candiates are Princes(Princesses)
He takes Lyanna. Some say as a prisoner some say as a lover, regardless the Starks are a representation of Ice as the Targaryens are of Fire. 

The children of the forest sing the song of earth. Maybe the song of fire is the dragons song and the song of Ice the others song. Maybe the song of ice and fire is the song of the battle between the others and the Dragons. The only thing that seems effective is *dragon*glass and as Sam says apparently *Dragon*steel. Valyrian steel is forged with magic and dragon fire which would make it dragon steel. The song of ice and fire was what Rhaegar said would be his son's song, the son that he believed was the prince that was promised.

But a later realisation is that baby Aegon is not the PTWP as he is only a prince of Fire and that the PTWP needs to be a prince of Ice and Fire. Hence taking Lyanna to give him a son of Stark and Targ blood being the Son(g) of Ice and Fire and the PWTP and also AAR. 

Jon and Dany have fufilled parts of the prophecy and if you believe Jon is Rhaegars son then they are both princes and as was Stannis. As well as all three having Targ blood. 

Another thing apart from wildings, the two houses shown to have Warging powers are Starks and Targs (BloodRaven Targaryen is the 3 eyes crow.) 

R'hollor the Red god, Lord of light. Can bring people back to life like the others can and the children of the forest can sustain life with Weirwood. (BloodRaven) And Coldhands is also dead, maybe brought back through power of earth. As 

Kiss of fire, Weirwood and whatever the others use/ Fire, earth and Ice. Could all be the songs. 

The Targ motto is the same as R'hollors, connecting the red god to the Dragons and the song of fire, as well as their roots in Essos. Just like the Starks have always manned the Wall. Its a parallel. 





Just some food for thought.


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## KidTony (Aug 2, 2011)

nuff said
____________


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## Parallax (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm halfway through Storm of Swords and it's probably already my favorite.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 2, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Ok time for some points. And if I make you think then you have to visit my RP thread
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Damn good post!


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## FitzChivalry (Aug 2, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Thoughts on Stannis, Jon, Ramsay from ADWD_ 




*Stannis*:
Stannis isn't dead, I think. Just look at the author of that letter to Jon. It's Ramsay fucking Snow. When I think of credible sources of information, Bolton's Bastard definitely does not come to mind. Remember, Mance took six spearwives with him. Unless I'm mistaken, three were caught or shot down during the fake Arya's rescue attempt with Theon. It's very, very possible that Ramsay "questioned" one of the aforementioned spearwives that he caught and extracted the necessary information to put the pieces together. It would explain his knowledge of Mance and Jon's involvement in it. I think he used Stannis as some sort of bait or something, but I would guess that Stannis is still alive.

*Jon*:
I hate the idea of undead/zombie Jon. I don't think that will be the case at all. Unlike Ned, who the series could do without, Jon's a much too vital character to series to go out this early. He still has a huge part to play. He's coming back alive. How GRRM does it is of course subject to debate, but make no mistake, Snow ain't dead. He has to somehow leave the Watch (and 'dying' might have afforded him this opportunity) and become a Stark, which is basically what most of the chapters were about really, in my opinion: Jon being more a Stark than even he might have known himself, and not a man of the Night's Watch.

My theory as of now is that when he comes back and gets healed up, the fallout will see him getting some sort of honorable discharge from the Watch and marching on Ramsay and Roose Bolton with a wildling army to reclaim his family's home. Robb's will, which hasn't been mentioned in the books since A Storm of Swords, has already made him a Stark and Lord of Winterfell. Howland Reed, a character of great, great intrigue in this series, probably has that parchment now. He, or maybe the people Robb sent up with the letter, has to deliver that to Jon. He might have refused Jon Stark and Lord of Winterfell from Stannis, but Robb's another case. There are some holes here and there as I've just started developing the story, but I'll cover those up in time.


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## Dionysus (Aug 2, 2011)

I believe the "R+L=J" theory, so, in any additional theory I can get behind, a Jon who is no longer a bastard is actually a Targaryen. Of course, he can remain mistaken about his ancestry.

There was a scene in ASOS where he ponders Stannis's offer, and he dreams of the crypts under Winterfell. In the dream the "spirits" didn't want Jon there as if he didn't belong. I take this as meaning his father wasn't a Stark.

I only mention this part as it deals with a scenario where Jon loses his bastard status.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Only dying can release Jon from his vows (and the scene with the new brothers is in to reminds us what these vows are)--possibly the Wall coming down would too. I've never heard of anyone being discharged from the Watch, but I suppose it doesn't stop Jon from lying. That doesn't seem in character though.

The problem I see with Jon leaving the Wall, in any case: who would believe he's not a deserter? Anyone who opposes Jon south of the Wall will have a HUGE advantage; every Watch deserter is put to the death so all undecided parties and people of uncertain loyalty would waver in supporting Jon in anything. He'd need a firm basis of loyal support and a clear purpose as he'd be on death row unless he can prove he's actually free of his vows.


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## FitzChivalry (Aug 2, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Pardon the wall of text.

I don't totally follow your viewpoint. If Lyanna's his mother (and Rhaegar his father), which is a theory I've backed so staunchly for so many years I don't even consider it 'theory' anymore, then he's still a Stark, whether his dreams tell him or not. Though bastard in label, he has as much Stark blood in him as his trueborn siblings. He can be told Rhaegar's his father and he has the blood of the dragon in him, but Jon is a Stark kid with the Stark look who believes in Stark's old gods. Whatever happens to him, his heart will always be with the Starks and Winterfell.

Dreams in A Song Of Ice and Fire are laden with profound, hidden meanings, other times they're not. Different interpretations (unless dreams contain obvious messages) can be taken for many of them. Jon dreaming of the crypts of Winterfell telling him he didn't belong could just as easily have been Jon's insecurities and feeling wholly welcome at Winterfell (hey there, Catelyn) about being a bastard, once again, manifesting themselves in dream form. He once said before that he had no more a place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. Much of his POV chapters in _Dance _seemed to be about him searching his heart and realizing there's a Stark man there after all, even if he hasn't yet realized it himself. His overarching personal storyline seems to support it, as he went from feeling alienated and unworthy of being a Stark to what we've just bored witness to in _Dance_. For the sake of Starks and Winterfell, Jon was resolved to break an oath he made, which is unheard of any of Ned Stark's sons.

Three reasons he can leave the Watch without being labeled "deserter." 

- One, there were plenty of witnesses to see his men betray him.

- Two, he'll probably be technically "dead," and dead men don't serve. 

- Three, and most importantly, is the threat that the Boltons, specifically Ramsay Bolton, possess. Remember, the Night's Watch takes no part, but they would be if the Boltons forced them to engage in war. If Jon's mere presence on The Wall puts the Watch and every man's vows in jeopardy, he can leave or be asked to leave the Watch with just cause. His leaving the Watch would protect them, because Ramsay Bolton knows about the role Jon played in fake Arya's rescue. Fake Arya's lack of presence there hurts Ramsay's claim to Winterfell. He will not take that lightly at all. A sadistic, vindictive bastard like him would march on the Wall and attempt to destroy Jon and everyone there for the decisions _Jon _made. Jon's honor and sense of responsibility would not allow that to happen. He would leave if that meant preventing all of that. Jon in character, there.


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## The Imp (Aug 2, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I think Jon will come back to life but I won't like it. In the earlier books, death actually meant something. When people were killed they stayed dead. It kept readers on the edge of their seat because, even though major "good" character deaths were few and far between, you knew characters wouldn't survive and get away in the most unlikely of scenarios. It puts a seed of doubt in the back of your head.

You could argue that we've known about wights since the beginning of the series, but they are just the animated dead. From what we've seen they don't retain any of their personality, feel emotions or show any hints of consciousness (the exception being Coldhands, but he's a special case). 

I don't even mind wargs living on inside their animals because over time they become more primal. Their souls become subservient to the animal and while a tiny part of their soul lives on, they are pretty much dead to you. However all this Rhollor bullshit with reviving the dead is irritating.

At this point in time, I don't feel scared for Arya, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion, Jaime, Dany, Jon, Sam, Rickon, Davos or Stannis. At least until the last book, where I hope all bets are off.


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## Nightfall (Aug 2, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I have mixed feelings on this, although I can see where you're coming from and I agree, but I kinda feel we need someone to chronicle the events on the Wall from now on. Now unless Melisandre replaces Jon, who else would it be? I almost forgot about Samwell, but he's not there now so.

I think Jaimes fate is very up in the air for now. From what we've seen of Lady Stoneheart, she doesn't keep her accused alive for very long


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## Nakor (Aug 2, 2011)

FitzChivalry said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Just because his men betrayed him with the intent to kill doesn't mean anything if he survives. All the witnesses would also still be at the wall, so other than word by raven, there would be no testimony to back it up. 



> - Two, he'll probably be technically "dead," and dead men don't serve.


Do you mean he actually dies, gets fully revived, and becomes human again? What's to stop the men in the watch from just killing him again? It's not like any of them currently at castle black are his friends and would support such a technicality. 



> - Three, and most importantly, is the threat that the Boltons, specifically Ramsay Bolton, possess. Remember, the Night's Watch takes no part, but they would be if the Boltons forced them to engage in war. If Jon's mere presence on The Wall puts the Watch and every man's vows in jeopardy, he can leave or be asked to leave the Watch with just cause. His leaving the Watch would protect them, because Ramsay Bolton knows about the role Jon played in fake Arya's rescue. Fake Arya's lack of presence there hurts Ramsay's claim to Winterfell. He will not take that lightly at all. A sadistic, vindictive bastard like him would march on the Wall and attempt to destroy Jon and everyone there for the decisions _Jon _made. Jon's honor and sense of responsibility would not allow that to happen. He would leave if that meant preventing all of that. Jon in character, there.


They could just kill jon and send his head to ramsay bolton along with a letter saying fake arya isn't there. whether it works or not is irrelevant. remember, most of them aren't very smart.. they'd probably think that would be enough to appease him. 


Now I'm not saying it wouldn't happen. I actually think it will. I'm not even sure if he is going to fully die. The wildlings may have found out what happened and stopped the watch from striking a killing blow. Mel then heals jon and they go fight ramsay bolton. the watch can't stop him because there are too many wildlings. he then uses robb's document that howland reed has proclaiming him to be a stark, which somehow frees him from the vow. he then finds out about his heritage from howland reed, especially if it is R + L = Jon, since he was there when ned and the other knights went to rescue lyanna.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 2, 2011)

FitzChivalry said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Personally in light of so much more evidence now that, A dance of Dragons has been read in full, points to Jon Being Reborn Azor Ahai.

From his dream of the Ice Armor and the Red blazing Swords. 

The Red Star or comet over head.

Melasandre's visions or AA, and only seeing Jon Snow. (It not snow cause she the word Snow has a capitol S)

The smoke, from his wound... And Bowan Marsh (Salty) tears.

Only thing is the waking of Dragons, and the sword lightbringer, which he may have to stab Melasandra with long claw to create it... I like Mely so I hope its not like that.

Personally i believe the Night watch is done. Battle had to ensue after the apparent "DEATH" of Jon and the Knight by Wun Wun.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 2, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



If Jon dies really... who protects the wall or fights the others in a realistic book written fashion? GRRM, would have to invest the next two books developing a new character for the wall. Somebody new to fight with no real backstory... Nobody of note is at the wall BUT mely. And, the Wall is a MAJOR part of the epic. 

GRRM has killed off many characters but we are coming to the end of the story. 5 books out of 7 and past the half way mark. It would be uneventful and pointless death for Jon, with far too many plot twists left unsolved. Who would write that bad? 

The story has only had well 2 resurrections... One Cat and the Mountain... And the Mountain may be more zombie. Dany, Bran, Tyrion, Jon, Arya, and maybe Jamie are not dying until the end. All other characters seem fair game.


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## The Imp (Aug 3, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



I know Jon is going to be revived. My problem is with the death in the first place. Martin knows and has already given away in interviews that Jon's death is temporary. Like others have said earlier in this thread, it's just a loophole to get Jon out of vows. It feels so gimmicky.

You're also forgetting that Beric was revived atleast half a dozen times.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 3, 2011)

Didn't like that either, and the other shenanigans in _Dance_.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 3, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



no I didn't forget. I just didn't count him cause it was a part of who he was. That would be like counting the People Damp Hair drowns and revived. In my opinion rather.

From reading all of these books by GRRM, one thing is certain, his death wasn't simply to get him out of his vows. There's meaning behind it that is woven deep into the story. And there's bigger thing then Vows now that they attempted to kill him. The whole scene foreshadowed a dark turn of events. And yeah GRRM did give away jon situation but, I think he did so because... You don't end a book on his death like that. Where its a mystery, if he is indeed dead. He did the same thing with Cat. we didn't hear about cat till Feast of crows. Its almost obvious. lol But i get your meaning, i just don't think its simply about getting him out of his vows...


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## Dionysus (Aug 3, 2011)

Will the Wall hold (remain standing)? It doesn't have to.


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## Freija (Aug 3, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, what interviews?


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## abcd (Aug 3, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 




The way the death is described feels weird... I think It was Ghost that was killed by bowen marsh and others not Jon... He was inside ghost when it happened i think , Ghost was given wine to make him rest, Which is why he was confused when he warged into it ...


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## cha-uzu (Aug 3, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> Will the Wall hold (remain standing)? It doesn't have to.



I don't think it will remain standing. This isn't LOTR where sauron never get the ring of power LOL. But yeah I think the wall will fall.


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## Cyphon (Aug 3, 2011)

The Wall will fall in order to bring everyone in the realm together. With The Wall down they will be forced to work together under 1 (or 3) leaders.


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## The Imp (Aug 3, 2011)

Freija said:


> I'm sorry, what interviews?




*Spoiler*: __ 




"Oh so you think he's dead, do you?" " I'm not going to address whether he's dead or not."



It could just be GRRM playing coy, but there's already a lot of doubt regarding his death and what he says just makes it seem more likely that he'll be back.






cha-uzu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



How is it part of his character? He was a normal human being until Thoros realized he could bring him back to life. And the only side effect was that he grew more and more detached from the living. He began wishing for death, but his goals, ideals and a part of his personality remained. 

Damphair isn't reviving the dead though. He's just using CPR so they don't die. It has a religious meaning to it so the Ironborn believe he's a prophet of the Drowned God with magical powers but he's really a regular human being who's good at CPR.

I agree that Jon's death will have a larger impact than just getting him out of his vows. The Watch is going to crumble much much faster and it furthers Jon's candidacy for AAR but I don't like Jon getting the moral high ground in the last few books especially after his fuck up as LC of the NW. 

Its just a gimmick to get one of the largest ASoIaF fanbases riled up. And I agree making it a cliffhanger was even worse because we're going to have to wait years to find out what happens next.


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## Nakor (Aug 3, 2011)

abcd said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like this theory.


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## FitzChivalry (Aug 3, 2011)

The Wall's a large block of ice infused with magic. It's going to have to take something extraordinary to bring it down, something involving some sorcery.

And for those interested, GRRM had an interview with, I believe, Entertainment Weekly online and was asked about Jon's status going forward. He gave one brief line that suggested a ton and didn't say anything else.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 4, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> The Wall will fall in order to bring everyone in the realm together. With The Wall down they will be forced to work together under 1 (or 3) leaders.


Or, you know, everyone beyond the wall will become a wight and seep into the Realm to wake everyone up to the upcoming doom. Winterfell probably has the same wards as the Wall and Storms End.


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## The Imp (Aug 4, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Or, you know, everyone beyond the wall will become a wight and seep into the Realm to wake everyone up to the upcoming doom. Winterfell probably has the same wards as the Wall and Storms End.



Would it even matter though? Unless there is some invisible magical barrier that protects everything South of Winterfell, the Others could just avoid it and leave it isolated.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 4, 2011)

Same difference, Winterfell was destroyed, Bran is in their base, and Rickon is off too, the Others would have no need to isolate it considering no one is there. Either way if the Wall falls, Westeros is in for a world of arseraping.


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## The Imp (Aug 4, 2011)

Well if the Wall does fall the Watch, Wildings and other Northerners are going to need a place to rally around/hide inside. Winterfell is one of the strongest castles in the North, and the seat of power of the Starks. If I was retreating from the Wall, that would be the first place I would run to even without knowing about it's magical powers. 

The Boltons sacked the castle, but the foundation and its walls are still standing.


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## Dionysus (Aug 4, 2011)

Westeros is due for an raping of the second kind. Without the Others actually breaching and getting in and killing people they're just a shadow of a threat. Something for a few dragons to casually fly over the Wall and deal with. I suppose Martin can write their finish as an invasion that's averted, but I would call that lame and mock him.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 4, 2011)

man, to see GRRM write the invasion would be epic! The Spiders, the others, the dead, Maybe even dead dragons. That would be ill. I wonder if the free cities are safe?


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## Gooba (Aug 4, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



No freaking way Jon is dead.  I'm not even worried.


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## Dash (Aug 4, 2011)

Finished Clash of Kings, GREAT read. 200 pages into Storm of Swords, liking it so far and apparently its the best book of the series so I'm pretty stoked. 

Also why are all the Starks so damn stupid?


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## Parallax (Aug 4, 2011)

They're not stupid

just unfortunate


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## Nae'blis (Aug 4, 2011)

too dumb/honest to live, too noble to shit.

Not all Starks though. Bran is still a kid but resourceful, Arya is just 9 and has misconceptions which can be explained by her age. Jon can be annoying but doesn't act silly. Robb... well, I'm not sure who formed his battle plans but he only made one (maybe two) real blunder which cost him dearly.


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 4, 2011)

I noticed that followers of R'Hllor seem to have genuine supernatural power, as do people who revere the nameless "Old Gods," but followers of the Seven do not seem to have any such power. Why might that be?

Who does everyone here is the cruelest and most sadistic person in the series? There are many characters to choose from, and while my original choice would have been either Joffrey or Gregor Clegane, after reading _A Dance with Dragons,_ I shall definitely say that Ramsay Bolton is the mot malicious character in the series. What does everyone else say about that?


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## Draffut (Aug 4, 2011)

So, trying to make a Stannis Baratheon costume, anyone know any good pages with good descriptions of his garb?


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## Gooba (Aug 5, 2011)

Ramsey is definitely the most evil.  At least the Mountain was doing it for a reason, Ramsey just likes torture.


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## FitzChivalry (Aug 5, 2011)

Ramsay is scum's scum. Despicable, twisted, sadistic, utterly without any love or regard for anyone, with the possible exception of Roose Bolton. 
*Spoiler*: _Dance spoiler_ 



When Jon was going off to confront him, that was the highest high. Then he got stabbed four times. Fuck.

Ramsay, his father, House Bolton, House Frey, they all need to fucking die. Or just the ones beyond saving and forgiveness.




Ned Stark died because he handicapped himself majorly with his precious honor. If he weren't so insistent on crowning Stannis king, he would probably have a head upon his shoulders still and Starks would be alive in Winterfell.


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## abcd (Aug 5, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I noticed that followers of R'Hllor seem to have genuine supernatural power, as do people who revere the nameless "Old Gods," but followers of the Seven do not seem to have any such power. Why might that be?
> 
> Who does everyone here is the cruelest and most sadistic person in the series? There are many characters to choose from, and while my original choice would have been either Joffrey or Gregor Clegane, after reading _A Dance with Dragons,_ I shall definitely say that Ramsay Bolton is the mot malicious character in the series. What does everyone else say about that?



Rickon when he comes back and revenge is going to be so sweet


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## Gooba (Aug 5, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I think Ned was dead no matter what.  Littlefinger was in love with Cat and he was married to her.  He seems to be the best player in the Game of Thrones and I think his whole motivation was to get with her.  Get lordships and power so he can be a suitable husband for her, and remove Ned were his two goals imo.  Even if Ned could have saved himself on Baelor's Sept eventually he was screwed.  Valar Morghulis.


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## masamune1 (Aug 5, 2011)

.....

I don't think Littlefinger was _that_ obsessed with Catelyn, that everything he has done up to that  point is to marry her. I'm pretty sure he's genuinelly ambitious, and resentful, and that is his main reason.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 5, 2011)

Gooba said:


> Ramsey is definitely the most evil.  At least the Mountain was doing it for a reason, Ramsey just likes torture.



Thats degrees of evil. Ramsey was sharp evil and The mountain was brutal evil. Both deserve death equally


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## Parallax (Aug 5, 2011)

Gooba said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I think Ned was dead no matter what.  Littlefinger was in love with Cat and he was married to her.  He seems to be the best player in the Game of Thrones and I think his whole motivation was to get with her.  Get lordships and power so he can be a suitable husband for her, and remove Ned were his two goals imo.  Even if Ned could have saved himself on Baelor's Sept eventually he was screwed.  Valar Morghulis.



I think Varys is a better player


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## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2011)

Parallax said:


> I think Varys is a better player



He didn't have a 2nd head helping him think so he had a major advantage. 

But yeah, I agree.


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## Gooba (Aug 5, 2011)

Even if it wasn't his entire motivation, it was certainly there.  Enough to kill him.


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## The Imp (Aug 5, 2011)

I think Littlefinger's motivation is just him wanting to beat the system. It started with him being spurned by Catelyn and not being seen as a credible match for her because of his social status. Since then he's decided to prove that a lowly noble from a little backwater in the Vale can rise to the top. Getting Cat/Sansa is only the cherry on top. 

Littlefinger has proven to be skilled at pulling money out of his ass. Kill the opposition, create chaos where your skills become an asset and move up the ranks. He got rid of Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, tried to get rid of Tyrion. He started a war that made half the realm rebels in the eyes of the iron throne and took their lands once they were inevitably defeated. 

Also it's no coincidence that the realm is 6 million golden dragons in debt at the start of AGoT and even worse economically at the end of The War of the 5 Kings. Robert started his rule with a fortune, even with spending money on repairs and throwing tourneys (the largest one in the realm only costing about 100 - 200 thousand golden dragons) he shouldn't be that far in debt especially when its been stated numerous times that the realms revenues are higher than they've ever been. 

When Tyrion became Master of Coin he couldn't make sense of LF's ledgers. There are dozens of gaolers employed to protect 2-3 men. It's obvious that LF was throwing away money at every opportunity and probably pocketing a lot of it as well. 

At this point I'd say LF is a better schemer in the game of thrones. We don't know how far Varys' scheming has gone. He's 
*Spoiler*: _ADWD _ 



killed Kevan, possibly orchestrated Tyrion killing his father, hid Aegon away and is possibly responsible for the fall of Aerys' reign


. But weakening the realm with the War of the 5 Kings and its economic situation should definitely be credited to Littlefinger.


----------



## Han Solo (Aug 5, 2011)

Ned lost the way he did because he was an idiot, not because he was too honorable. Being too honorable (well, compassionate really) explains why he would go to Cersei, but nothing explains why he trusted Littlefinger _after_ he told Littlefinger than he wanted to crown Stannis. Ned forced Littlefinger's hand by trying to put a person in power who likely would have killed Littlefinger.

Ramsay is probably the most evil character so far. He, Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, Joffrey Baratheon, etc. have all got to be the most boring characters in the books. In a world full of morally complex characters HURR DURR I'M EVUALL just sucks. I know I'm supposed to cheer when Joffrey, Vargo Hoat, Gregor all die but I never once cared in the slightest other than being glad that they were out of the series.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 5, 2011)

FitzChivalry said:


> Ramsay is scum's scum. Despicable, twisted, sadistic, utterly without any love or regard for anyone, with the possible exception of Roose Bolton.
> *Spoiler*: _Dance spoiler_
> 
> 
> ...



I kinda like Roose now. He's pretty funny in ADWD. He can be cold, cunning and ruthless but he's not sadistic like Ramsay.

Also while Joffrey was a piece of shit, he had some of the funniest lines in Clash and Storm.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Aug 5, 2011)

Parallax said:


> I think Varys is a better player


He's not really a player though. He's more like a biased moderator that's officiating the game. He says he's in it for the realm, yet there have been clear moments where he's shown his _Tard_garyen-ism.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2011)

FitzChivalry said:


> He says he's in it for the realm, yet there have been clear moments where he's shown his _Tard_garyen-ism.



Wouldn't that just means he thinks it is best for the realm under Targaryen rule?

Anyway I think he is definitely a player and one of the best if not thee best.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 5, 2011)

I don't know what Varys' endgame is, but I know Littlefinger isn't thinking about the Others. By itself it doesn't really make sense for Varys to want Targaryens to rule "just because". I think once we figure out why Varys wants that it will help a great deal. I mean, Varys even put Viserys in a position to reclaim the throne, and by all accounts Varys should know Viserys was driven mad by his circumstances. "Best for the realm" wouldn't include another Aerys. So I think having a Targaryen ruler has more to it than just keeping up with an old tradition.

Oh and Varys is one of the best, but I doubt he would have been so successful in Kings Landing if Littlefinger wasn't helping him to a degree. Same with Littlefinger: without Varys confirming that the dragon-bone valyrian steel dagger belonged to Tyrion, Littlefinger wouldn't have started the chaos. You could say that Varys didn't correct him about the dagger because he also wanted chaos, but Littlefinger wouldn't lie in front of someone he couldn't trust. They are working together or at least have a mutual understanding of sorts.


----------



## Parallax (Aug 5, 2011)

Tywin was easily up there


*Spoiler*: __ 



till he got shanked




Melissandre too for obvious reasons.


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 5, 2011)

I've never gotten a vibe that Varys (and Illyrio) have any clue there are a mass of ice monsters about to invade. Or, rather, that they are doing what they're doing out of some strange sense of loyalty to the only ruling family. Maybe though.

If this _is_ the case, I would expect Rhaegar convinced them of a threat. (Who else was studying all those prophecies?) And, this would suggest Varys may have more knowledge of Rhaegar's dealings and motives that started Robert's Rebellion.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 5, 2011)

I don't think they're working together, but Littlefinger starting a Stark-Lannister conflict is mutually beneficial to both of them. I think Littlefinger says/hints somewhere in AGoT that Varys is the only person that can match him in intelligence and scheming or something along those lines. There's a mutual respect there.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 5, 2011)

The same Tywin who treated his greatest asset and "true" heir like shit and wanted to kill him? No, he was just somewhat clever but reacted to everything instead of initiating.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 5, 2011)

Tywin is a completely different type of player. He has power and is competent with it. He doesn't really sneak around and scheme behind other people's backs like Varys and Littlefinger do. The only time he did do that was to orchestrate the Red Wedding, but I'm sure Walder Frey initiated that alliance rather than Tywin.


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 5, 2011)

Wasn't it suggested that the Westerlings pushed Jeyne and Robb together? It's been ages since I read AFFC. Could be my imagination.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 5, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> I've never gotten a vibe that Varys (and Illyrio) have any clue there are a mass of ice monsters about to invade. Or, rather, that they are doing what they're doing out of some strange sense of loyalty to the only ruling family. Maybe though.
> 
> If this _is_ the case, I would expect Rhaegar convinced them of a threat. (Who else was studying all those prophecies?) And, this would suggest Varys may have more knowledge of Rhaegar's dealings and motives that started Robert's Rebellion.


From my reading there has been nothing (maybe a small clue Dance) that indicates he knows anything about the Others. But it seems arbitrary for him to want a Targaryen ruler considering he is not even from Westeros. He's from where people worship R'hllor...


*Spoiler*: __ 



he says "for the children", and "children of the forest" is not capitalised when Bran speaks of them. If he means them or just every child in Westeros is not clear






The Imp said:


> I don't think they're working together, but Littlefinger starting a Stark-Lannister conflict is mutually beneficial to both of them. I think Littlefinger says/hints somewhere in AGoT that Varys is the only person that can match him in intelligence and scheming or something along those lines. There's a mutual respect there.


Yeah but that doesn't really explain why he was confident enough to tell Catelyn, in front of Varys, that the dagger was Tyrions and not his own. I don't mean they are working together for the same end, but there is an understanding.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 5, 2011)

Yeah, I think they had an influence on the relationship. Robb was injured and then they had Jeyne taking care of him for a while. If Theon hadn't put those two heads on a spike nothing would have happened. I think Jaime notes in AFfC that Jeyne's uncle, their castellan, got a substantial reward for doing nothing. So it's likely that he let the Starks take their castle on purpose to try to get the Jeyne/Robb match going. But the idea of the Red Wedding itself has Walder Frey written all over it. Murdering Robb and his army in cold blood during a wedding because Robb broke his betrothal with the Freys is something he would think up. Tywin probably had something in the works, the Freys getting involved got the job done faster.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Aug 5, 2011)

> Wasn't it suggested that the Westerlings pushed Jeyne and Robb together? It's been ages since I read AFFC. Could be my imagination.


Yes, something like that, I think. Jeyne was clueless to it all, as she was a pawn in the whole game.



Cyphon said:


> Wouldn't that just means he thinks it is best for the realm under Targaryen rule?
> 
> Anyway I think he is definitely a player and one of the best if not thee best.



But why would Varys be so convinced that a Targaryen is the best answer for the realm when it's known that there's a 50/50 chance that a Targaryen could be mad or brilliant? Those aren't good odds for a person who weighs the calculated risks and moves when the time is ripe. He professes to be loyal to the realm, but he demonstrated an inclination toward Targaryens rule more than any other person and House. Why is a mystery. It could have to do with dragons and Targaryen presence staving off a brutal winter that threatens to overtake the Seven Kingdoms. And with winters, which have bee known to last a long time in the Ice and Fire world, comes with it The Others. Aren't dragons intrinsically linked to warm seasons? Dragons would also be a good weapon against Others. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



But our fair Prince Aegon has no dragons


 Whatever the case may be, Varys favors Targaryen rule.

If Varys is an actual player in the game of thrones, then he's probably tied for best with Littlefinger. There are other comparable players like Tyrion and Tywin. 
*Spoiler*: _Storm of Swords spoiler_ 



Tywin, of course, can no longer be considered good or a player since that quarrel pierced his bowels.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 5, 2011)

Let make a tier list.

*Top Tier*
Littlefinger
Varys

*High Tier*
Tywin Lannister
Doran Martell
Queen of Thorns
Tyrion Lannister

*Mid Tier*
Roose Bolton
Kevan Lannister
Jon Arryn
Jaime Lannister
Renly Baratheon
Pycelle

*Low Tier*
Cersei Lannister
Stannis Baratheon

*Shit Tier* 
Ned Stark

I ordered them from highest to lowest in their respective tiers. Agree/disagree? Who would you move? Who would you add?


----------



## Han Solo (Aug 5, 2011)

I think your underrating Renly, he did everything perfectly and only got killed by something no one could have ever predicted.  If he didn't get assassinated he'd probably be king by now.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2011)

FitzChivalry said:


> But why would Varys be so convinced that a Targaryen is the best answer for the realm when it's known that there's a 50/50 chance that a Targaryen could be mad or brilliant?



Isn't he old friends with Illryio? I don't remember all of the specifics but I am pretty sure they remain in contact and Illryio has a good idea about both Viserys and Dany. From that I would guess 2 things.

1. Varys/Illryio had hoped or expected Viserys would die as he did once Dany was married to Drogo. Illryio knew first hand of his temperament and could have made a reasonable assumption based on what he knew of Khal's and all that. Or they simply thought Dany would seize power being that she was married to the person providing the army.

or 

2. Varys found out recently (probably from Illryio) that Dany had gathered her army and hatched dragons and all that and is now poised to make her move. So now he made his move.


Both of these ideas could be fundamentally flawed if I am forgetting some details but I think the general idea is fairly sound.


What you bring up is interesting though, and that is the "why" of his favoring Targaryen's. I think you are onto something with it having to do with dragons and winter and everything involved there. He is very well informed and he doesn't really seem the type to scoff at ideas of a supernatural threat.


----------



## Terra Branford (Aug 5, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Let make a tier list.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. What is this rated as? Power, wealth, House status, etc etc?


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 5, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. What is this rated as? Power, wealth, House status, etc etc?



Throne gaming tier.


----------



## Sesha (Aug 5, 2011)

It's of how good players they are at the game of thrones.

Edit: fffffffffff


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> Throne gaming tier.



This may be a confusing way to word it lol.

"Schemers" tier or something may be easier to follow.


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 5, 2011)

Don't worry. You got the top o' the page. I am forever the irrelevant reply now.

Edit: maybe not


I like that term as it plays with the term in the books. I also like to differentiate from those who try to get into women's panties.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2011)

I kept you alive Dionysus


----------



## Terra Branford (Aug 5, 2011)

Ah, thanks for explaining guys (especially Sesha  ). 

In that case I pretty much agree with the post. Except I would move Doran Martell down with Roose.


----------



## Gooba (Aug 5, 2011)

I believe Varys is actually doing it for the good of the realm.  Yes he is supporting the Targaryians, but because he they will lead the best.  Everyone else is doing it for the glory of their house, power, women, or shits and giggles.

Ned might have been shit tier, but he would have been the best King.


----------



## Pineapples (Aug 5, 2011)

I don't know about that. It seems weird to me that Varys would support the Targaryens since (from what I can remember) the only Targaryen ruler he personally knew was Aerys. From what we have read and heard, Aerys was a pretty horrific king late in his rule. 

How could Varys possibly think that Targaryens are able rulers? Other than maybe history books, or unless he was old enough to have known Jaehaerys II, Varys shouldn't have such a strong resolve to want them back. I think that Varys knows much more than what he's showing. I'd wager that he probably knows about the threat of the Others and read up on some weird prophecy about how Targaryens would be instrumental in defeating them. Something like that.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 5, 2011)

Illyrio explained their relationship in Pentos. Varys stole things, and then the victims would come to Illyrio to get them back. They get double the profit that way. Varys and Illyrio are doing the same thing again on a large fucking scale. It reminds me of Wednesday from American Gods. 

Their motivation is probably not for the thrills but its an interesting parallel to their early days.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Aug 6, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Let make a tier list.
> 
> *Top Tier*
> Littlefinger
> ...



I agree with this list, mostly, except for having Jaime at a higher tier than Cersei, as Jaime prefers direct action and confrontation, while Cersei is the schemer and manipulator of the two of them.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 6, 2011)

Jaime may not want to participate in politics but he is and he's shown he's somewhat competent. He wanted to keep Tommen away from Cersei to stop him from becoming another Joffrey. He gave Cersei the idea of sending the Tyrells to Storm's End to weaken them, feed their ego and bring the Stormlands back into the King's peace. He successfully negotiated Riverrun and Raventree's surrender without spilling any blood. 

On the other hand, we have Cersei's complete train wreck in AFfC. The only reason she looked like a good player in AGoT is because she was taking on Ned Stark, a shit tier player.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Aug 6, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Jaime may not want to participate in politics but he is and he's shown he's somewhat competent. He wanted to keep Tommen away from Cersei to stop him from becoming another Joffrey. He gave Cersei the idea of sending the Tyrells to Storm's End to weaken them, feed their ego and bring the Stormlands back into the King's peace. He successfully negotiated Riverrun and Raventree's surrender without spilling any blood.
> 
> On the other hand, we have Cersei's complete train wreck in AFfC. The only reason she looked like a good player in AGoT is because she was taking on Ned Stark, a shit tier player.



Yes, you do have a good point there, although I still feel pity for Cersei and how her plans seemed to be so close to success, and then failed. I believe that the lyrics of the song _King Nothing_ by Metallica would be quite appropriate for her situation, apart from the fact that the song uses the word "king," when Cersei was a queen.


----------



## Parallax (Aug 7, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm glad that bitch failed


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 7, 2011)

Parallax said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad that bitch failed



 yeah I was like YES!!!!


----------



## User Name (Aug 8, 2011)

Gooba said:


> Ned might have been shit tier, but he would have been the best King.



Nah, not even Martin would necessarily agree with you. 
Arsenal shun another Fabregas bid.

Ned is honorable to a fault. The honorable decision isn't always the right one for a king: for example, Robb's decision to marry Jeyne.


----------



## Parallax (Aug 8, 2011)

that's true 

even Stannis who is ironclad has made choices that aren't the most honorable.


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't know, Eddard ran the North. Played a role similar to king without actually being called King. He had an army, an economic system as well as Laws. villages and cities under his watch and rule.


----------



## User Name (Aug 8, 2011)

cha-uzu said:


> I don't know, Eddard ran the North. Played a role similar to king without actually being called King. He had an army, an economic system as well as Laws. villages and cities under his watch and rule.



The Starks have been rulers of the North for thousands of years. They are expected to rule. Northmen generally won't cause too much trouble. Starks have pretty much full support of the North. Ned would be an excellent King of the North. But being King of the North and being King of Westeros are two entirely different beasts. Juggling the interest of seven kingdoms requires more than a honorable king.


----------



## Angoobo (Aug 8, 2011)

Currently reading ACoK, way better than AGoT...
What's your favourite one?


----------



## The Imp (Aug 8, 2011)

The consensus is usually that A Storm of Swords is the best book in the series to date.



cha-uzu said:


> I don't know, Eddard ran the North. Played a role similar to king without actually being called King. He had an army, an economic system as well as Laws. villages and cities under his watch and rule.



The same could be said for every major lord in the Seven Kingdoms. The North has a different culture. Ned just didn't fit in King's Landing. Northern politics are different from the South.


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 8, 2011)

The Imp said:


> The consensus is usually that A Storm of Swords is the best book in the series to date.
> 
> 
> 
> The same could be said for every major lord in the Seven Kingdoms. The North has a different culture. Ned just didn't fit in King's Landing. Northern politics are different from the South.



I have to agree.


----------



## masamune1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Parallax said:


> that's true
> 
> even Stannis who is ironclad has made choices that aren't the most honorable.



Yeah....but that didn't go so well for him, did it?

I think Ned was a better player than he's being given credit. It wasn't so much that he was _bad_ at the game as he didn't like it, and probably saw better than most that games such as them are no way to run a country. 
He was too responsible as well as too honourable, since he was the only one who was more interested in doing his job than consolidating his power. 

Plus, the way it turned out for him isn't the way it normally would have. The rules of the game had changed, because one of the players was a homicidal 14 year old and another was a lunatic conspiring to bring about a civil war, solely for personal advancement. 

That illustrates my point quite neatly since Littlefinger is, in a sense, the game of thrones taken to its logical conclusion. Cersei would have seen Ned spared and the Lannisters as a whole would not have kicked off a civil war just for the hell of it, but the game everyone but Ned was playing was one that inevitably leads to catastrophe, because it rewards people for stooping to lower and lower ends and getting away with it, until you are gambling with eacactly what you are playing for. The North has been ruled by 
Starks for thousands of years preciely because their kings realised that the throne is not a game.


----------



## Parallax (Aug 8, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Yeah....but that didn't go so well for him, did it?



Maybe not

but he's still a credible threat

not to mention alive

which seems to be pretty important


----------



## masamune1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Assuming he is indeed alive, he still traded his honour for short term gain that resulted in massive losses, and now he's pretty much back where he started, or weaker than that. If he had more honour he could have made more gains, now it looks less and less likely that he'll gain anything.

Though, maybe he is just a poor player.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 8, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Assuming he is indeed alive, he still traded his honour for short term gain that resulted in massive losses, and now he's pretty much back where he started, or weaker than that. If he had more honour he could have made more gains, now it looks less and less likely that he'll gain anything.
> 
> Though, maybe he is just a poor player.



There was little that Stannis could do in the first place. He had a couple thousand men with him on Dragonstone. He couldn't capture King's Landing without facing ridiculous losses. And if he did capture it, there was no way he could hold it. He was a threat to the Lannisters because he was the legitimate heir to the iron throne but more importantly a capable general with the largest fleet on the East Coast and an unknown number of men.  In reality he had ships but not enough men to man them. 

There was no way he was going to win Renly and his host to his side, so he took a gamble. He sacrificed his honour for justice. Had he not challenged Renly and kneeled to him, sure he would have become the Lord of Storm's End and the Stormlands but he would be sacrificing his own principles as well. It wasn't in his character to step aside for his little brother. In either situation he was sacrificing something. The gain in the second situation just wasn't worth it for him, so he gambled for something bigger and he lost.

He didn't have the greatest situation to work with but in the end I guess he was just a bad politician.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 8, 2011)

Kinslaying is now called "sacrificing honour"? lol

The remaining Lannisters are actually pretty cool. Ser Kevan isn't a cunt like his brother, Jaime is actually a good guy, Tommen/Myrcella are genuinely nice kids. Cersei just needs to die or be locked up forever.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 8, 2011)

I wasn't just referring to killing Renly but also forgiving his bannermen that betrayed him earlier when he called on them, especially because he cut off Davos' fingers for being a smuggler.

Also Stannis knew that Renly would die if he put Storm's End under siege because of Mel but I doubt he knew the details. He was acting ignorant in the Davos chapter after Renly's murder and didn't really seem to know how Mel was going to kill the castellan of Storm's End. I wouldn't be surprised if he actually thought Brienne killed Renly. I'm sure he didn't meticulously plan giving birth to shadow babies to kill him though.


----------



## Terra Branford (Aug 8, 2011)

Parallax said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad that bitch failed




*Spoiler*: __ 



I was extremely happy. 

But I think my sister will love it even more than myself. She started the book series just a few days ago and completely hates Cersei and Jaime. 

Did anyone else "" when Joff finally had what was coming to him?


----------



## The Imp (Aug 8, 2011)

For like a minute before that cunt Cersei accused Tyrion of murdering him.


----------



## Terra Branford (Aug 8, 2011)

@The Imp:


*Spoiler*: __ 



I thought he was going to die in that book. I would have missed Tyrion too much.  Probably too much to continue reading.  

I also thought Tywin's ending was great too.


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 9, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I used to hate Jaime but, not so much anymore. lol I stopped hating him in ASOS


----------



## Parallax (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah Jamie is great

I honestly never hated him at all but after ASOS he's one of my favorites


----------



## Terra Branford (Aug 9, 2011)

I told my sister she would end up liking him or at least not hate him, she's adamant about hating him. But so was I.


----------



## Parallax (Aug 9, 2011)

I can't see anyone hating him after getting all caught up.

Quite a few characters are like that though, The Hound is another one who comes to mind.


----------



## Terra Branford (Aug 9, 2011)

I think the only one I really hate is Cersei. Still haven't found any reasons to like her :/


----------



## Parallax (Aug 9, 2011)

there are a few like that too

The Freys especially


----------



## abcd (Aug 9, 2011)

Parallax said:


> there are a few like that too
> 
> The Freys especially



I thought everyone liked freys, They seem to be tasty


----------



## Jesus (Aug 9, 2011)

Frey pie


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 9, 2011)

Parallax said:


> I can't see anyone hating him after getting all caught up.
> 
> Quite a few characters are like that though, The Hound is another one who comes to mind.



His interactions with Eddard and trying to Kill Bran made me dislike him. And I thought he had something to do with trying to set his brother up while trying to have him Killed by Tyrions Dagger. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Come to find out it was Joff


... 

The Hound, i never really hated.


----------



## Han Solo (Aug 9, 2011)

Jaime is a good character but I don't really buy that he's "reformed" or anything. He's still the same guy that attempted to murder a seven year old child and was fine with anything Cersei was doing until he found out she was cheating on him.

Tywin will always be my favorite Lannister anyway.


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 9, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> I think the only one I really hate is Cersei. Still haven't found any reasons to like her :/


Cersei is far to scandalous to like. I mean she's got so much blood on her hands. And Her Arrogance knows no bounds. I wonder if she'll live thru to the end?


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 9, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> Jaime is a good character but I don't really buy that he's "reformed" or anything. He's still the same guy that attempted to murder a seven year old child and was fine with anything Cersei was doing until he found out she was cheating on him.
> 
> Tywin will always be my favorite Lannister anyway.



I don't think he's reformed. GRRM just told a great story surrounding the guy. He showed he is no doubt a true knight, when he saves Brienne, and then shows he has some honor when he tried to keep his word with Cat. I don't think he was fine with everything Cersei was doing. He had conserns about her actions. He really didn't know much about her cheating until Tyrion's said something to him about it.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 9, 2011)

Just for clarification, what was Cersei doing that Jaime was fine with?


----------



## masamune1 (Aug 9, 2011)

The Imp said:


> There was little that Stannis could do in the first place. He had a couple thousand men with him on Dragonstone. He couldn't capture King's Landing without facing ridiculous losses. And if he did capture it, there was no way he could hold it. He was a threat to the Lannisters because he was the legitimate heir to the iron throne but more importantly a capable general with the largest fleet on the East Coast and an unknown number of men.  In reality he had ships but not enough men to man them.
> 
> There was no way he was going to win Renly and his host to his side, so he took a gamble. He sacrificed his honour for justice. Had he not challenged Renly and kneeled to him, sure he would have become the Lord of Storm's End and the Stormlands but he would be sacrificing his own principles as well. It wasn't in his character to step aside for his little brother. In either situation he was sacrificing something. The gain in the second situation just wasn't worth it for him, so he gambled for something bigger and he lost.
> 
> He didn't have the greatest situation to work with but in the end I guess he was just a bad politician.



He didn't have to stand aside for his little brother, per say (good chance Renly didn't have what it took to win the throne anyway); he could, for instance, have made a deal with the Starks. I suppose thats abouts as out of character and against his principles as kneeling to Renly but, that said, either option was miles more honourable than all the stuff he's been doing, and would have probably left him with more than he has.

Guess that just repeating what you have said, but I'd add that even if he had succeeded in taking King's Landing, he still would have been in a bit of a state, since Tywin Lannister would still have been out there and the Starks would still have to be brought to heel, and no doubt a bunch of other stuff.

Regardless, if he had more honour, he would have been in a better position now than where he is. And it wasn't for "justice", it was for personal ambition, because despite howevermuch he conflates the two they are not the same thing. If the old Stannis everran into a man like the man he has become, he would call it justice to have that mans head. His honour was his justice, and he has sacrificed both.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 9, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> He didn't have to stand aside for his little brother, per say (good chance Renly didn't have what it took to win the throne anyway); he could, for instance, have made a deal with the Starks. I suppose thats abouts as out of character and against his principles as kneeling to Renly but, that said, either option was miles more honourable than all the stuff he's been doing, and would have probably left him with more than he has.


That's just it. It's all or nothing for Stannis. He isn't capable of settling for anything less and he isn't charismatic enough to win people to his cause to get what he wants. One of his biggest problems is that he's uncompromising. 

Also, I'm curious why you think Renly wouldn't be able to win the throne. He certainly had enough men to accomplish it. The different accounts of Renly and the actions he took once confronted with Stannis don't make him out to be a military genius, but he does have some competent men under him like Tarly and Garlan. All of the enemy hosts had already faced losses and were battle weary. Add Renly's overwhelmingly superior numbers and I doubt he would lose any military conflicts. We also saw in AGoT that he was loved by the people. Could he keep the throne and make the realm more prosperous or would his reign end up just like Robert's is a completely different question.



> Guess that just repeating what you have said, but I'dadd that even if he had succeeded in taking King's Landing, he still would have been in a bit of a state, since Tywin Lannister would still have been out there and the Starks would still have to be brought to heel, and no doubt a bunch of other stuff.
> 
> Regardless, if he had more honour, he would have been in a better position now than where he is. And it wasn't for "justice", it was for personal ambition, because despite howevermuch he conflates the two they are not the same thing. If the old Stannis everran into a man like the man he has become, he would call it justice to have that mans head. His honour was his justice, and he has sacrificed both.



Yeah, Stannis didn't have much of a chance of keeping the throne if he had taken King's Landing. By killing Renly he had basically alienated Highgarden. It would take a ridiculous amount of compromising and rewards to placate the Reach which just isn't in Stannis to do. 

I believe Tommen wasn't in King's Landing at that point so Tywin would rally behind him, and if Littlefinger remained successful in his negotiations, the Tyrells would be backing Tommen as well. Stannis wasn't going to be able to keep the throne.

I agree with your second point.


----------



## Gooba (Aug 9, 2011)

This is absurd.Also: 





> 7. A Dance with Dragons (hardback)--413 days in the top 100


which is crazy since it has only been out ~30.


----------



## Fierce (Aug 9, 2011)

Preorders?


----------



## masamune1 (Aug 9, 2011)

The Imp said:


> That's just it. It's all or nothing for Stannis. He isn't capable of settling for anything less and he isn't charismatic enough to win people to his cause to get what he wants. One of his biggest problems is that he's uncompromising.



Like I said, more honour would have meant more gain. Stubborness and ambition has cost him much.



> Also, I'm curious why you think Renly wouldn't be able to win the throne. He certainly had enough men to accomplish it. The different accounts of Renly and the actions he took once confronted with Stannis don't make him out to be a military genius, but he does have some competent men under him like Tarly and Garlan. All of the enemy hosts had already faced losses and were battle weary. Add Renly's overwhelmingly superior numbers and I doubt he would lose any military conflicts. We also saw in AGoT that he was loved by the people. Could he keep the throne and make the realm more prosperous or would his reign end up just like Robert's is a completely different question.



Renly, as you said, didn't appear to be the most competent of generals. Aside from that, numbers didn't matter much for Stannis, even if didn't have all of Renly's host, and most of his troops didn't seem to have much experience. Tyrion proved himself to be imaginative enough to take Stannis,  he probably could have taken Renly too, who anyway seemed to be the enemy the Lannisters had been regarding as the principal threat, meaning they had been preparing to fight him for the longest time with the most seriousness. Add to that the fact that Renly was in no rush to beat the Lannisters before they dealt with the rest of their enemies and his advantages don't seem so special anymore.


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## The Imp (Aug 9, 2011)

The Lannisters considered Stannis the greater threat, Tywin even says that towards the end of AGoT. Most of Tyrion's preparations were for Stannis. They acknowledged Renly as a threat but Stannis was always the wild card with the fleet they had no hopes of taking on. They knew Stannis was the greater general and ruthless as well, while Renly was more of a politician who liked to please everyone. 

Renly only took his cavalry to break the siege on Storm's End. Even after his death it was mostly the Baratheon bannermen who deserted Renly's cause. The Tyrell bannermen (minus the Florents) ran back to the main host at Bitterbridge. When Stannis attacked KL, I'd estimate he had between 25-30,000 men. While there were 60-70,000 with the Tyrells. 

While Tyrion's tactics did set Stannis back greatly, he acknowledged that KL would be lost once his forces began crossing the river on the bridge of broken ships. Also once the Tyrells and Lannisters arrived to attack Stannis from behind, most of Stannis' men deserted him because of "Renly's Ghost". 

The Tyrells were the biggest game changers. Whoever had the Reach backing them would win the War of the 5 Kings. Their numerical advantage is too big to ignore. The Lannisters were busy campaigning in the Riverlands and Tywin nearly killed his host marching them back as fast as possible to save KL. Renly took his sweet time moving up the Rose Road. He would have outnumbered the Lannisters 3:1. While the Lannisters were better trained they would also be exhausted.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 9, 2011)

Stannis was a greater threat because Dragonstone is at the mouth of Blackwater Bay. Stannis has his fleet and Sallador Saan's fleet/mercenaries; and King's Landing had their fleet (which Stannis was in charge of before he left in _Game of Thrones_). Highgarden was considered a great asset to the Lannisters, and Renly had them. They had closed off all the food supplies to King's Landing and could have coordinated a good seige. I mean, you even say "whoever had the Reach... would win the war" yet consider Stannis the bigger threat.

And I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that Stannis was a great general. Not mockery, I really don't remember where that was said. They all had war councils, unless you are willing to believe Robb Stark (a green boy) planned and coordinated by himself all of the victories he had. The Iron Fleet was a better naval force than Stannis, but they were not near so didn't pose an immediate threat.

Still think Stannis is a bit of an idiot, destroying Renly while they could have made common cause.


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## The Imp (Aug 9, 2011)

Stannis proved he was competent during the siege of Storm's End. Then during the Greyjoy Rebellion he defeated the Iron Fleet. He was the admiral of the Royal Fleet during Robert's reign. Compared to Renly, who's biggest accomplishment is probably in a tourney. 

I don't consider Stannis a big threat because as a reader we know the state of his forces but the Lannisters don't. They consider him a threat because he was a competent commander with an unknown number of men. He possessed the largest fleet on the East coast and like you said he was sitting on Dragonstone. 

In hindsight, Stannis wasn't that big of a threat because he only had a couple thousand men.


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## The Imp (Aug 9, 2011)

Ok I found the quote of Tywin talking to Tyrion.

_His father frowned. “I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?” He gave an irritated shrug. “Kevan, bring us the map.”_


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## Nae'blis (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah, but how does that prove he is a greater general?


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## The Imp (Aug 9, 2011)

The Tywin quote or the list of his accomplishments?

Renly hasn't proven himself in battle once while Stannis defeated the Greyjoys in a naval battle and held Storm's End under a year long siege. If that doesn't prove he is a better commander than Renly, I don't know what will.


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## Parallax (Aug 9, 2011)

If Tywin Lannister calls you a threat there's probably a lot of truth in that statement.


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## Fierce (Aug 9, 2011)

Renly and Stannis were both being idiots. However, they didn't have a common cause. They both laid claims to the Iron Throne. They both needed to break the Lannisters for that, but what then?


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## Nae'blis (Aug 9, 2011)

Renly didn't have a claim, he just thought Stannis would be garbage on the throne





The Imp said:


> The Tywin quote or the list of his accomplishments?
> 
> Renly hasn't proven himself in battle once while Stannis defeated the  Greyjoys in a naval battle and held Storm's End under a year long siege.  If that doesn't prove he is a better commander than Renly, I don't know  what will.


Stannis defeated the Greyjoy's with all the might (and fleet) of the Seven Kingdom's behind him, while Ned was blitzing the mainland. They had to defend against two fronts. And a seige is just waiting, Stannis was eating rats and nearly dead until Davos showed up.


> _His father frowned. “I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined._


I said why he was a more prominent threat, you even said Highgarden was the key. And honestly everyone can see that Tywin was talking shit, his statement didn't make sense. Stannis is only a threat with his fleet, and King's Landing didn't even have men enough to defend the keep. If an army showed up at the gates they were screwed.


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## Fierce (Aug 9, 2011)

I know. But he laid a claim anyway.


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## cha-uzu (Aug 9, 2011)

Gooba said:


> This is absurd.Also: which is crazy since it has only been out ~30.



Thats Absurd! Wow


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## Snickers (Aug 9, 2011)

The Imp said:


> I think Littlefinger's motivation is just him wanting to beat the system. It started with him being spurned by Catelyn and not being seen as a credible match for her because of his social status. Since then he's decided to prove that a lowly noble from a little backwater in the Vale can rise to the top. Getting Cat/Sansa is only the cherry on top.
> 
> Littlefinger has proven to be skilled at pulling money out of his ass. Kill the opposition, create chaos where your skills become an asset and move up the ranks. He got rid of Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, tried to get rid of Tyrion. He started a war that made half the realm rebels in the eyes of the iron throne and took their lands once they were inevitably defeated.
> 
> ...



I believe that they are nearly equal players. Varys is just operating on a different scale than Littlefinger is. They have different goals on different scales and different reasons. Littlefinger is improving his own status . Varys seems to be more concerned with the status of others. 

I think Littlefinger has shown more brilliance so far , but he is awfully close to making himself a  piece. Varys sits before the chess board still .


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## Yakuza (Aug 10, 2011)

Oh God I finally finished the book. It was a impossible mission considering every minute I sat down to read my son was ripping my hair out of my head.


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## The Imp (Aug 12, 2011)

It combines all of the canon maps and where they are in relation to each other. It's pretty neat.


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## abcd (Aug 12, 2011)

The Imp said:


> It combines all of the canon maps and where they are in relation to each other. It's pretty neat.



so quarth is constantinople then  

Ashhai is israel?

Will the survivors go to Americas after the others rape humanity


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## FitzChivalry (Aug 12, 2011)

That is a pretty cool map. It's also a little jarring to know how far people like Jon and Dany are from one another, as they're at opposite ends. Brsavos is closer to Westeros than I thought. I'll save this for future reference.


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## The Imp (Aug 13, 2011)

Oh wow, I just noticed that Martin put the Tower of Joy on the map. It's in the Prince's Pass just north of Kingsgrave.


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## Cyphon (Aug 13, 2011)

I have never really paid attention to the maps in books. Not just this series but in any really. It just never seemed that important or interesting. No doubt it is cool to look at though and I am sure many here have a much better imagination than me in regards to the distances people have travelled and all that.


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 13, 2011)

Thank you very much for that map, Imp; it is immensely helpful for knowing where each section of the world is in relation to the others, and it also is rather incredible how far apart some of the main characters are from each other.

I have been wondering: who shall help to rebuild House Lannister and reclaim its honor and status? Cersei has, unfortunately, brought shame upon it, and while Kevan was honorable, he was very old and may now likely be dead, leaving younger members of House Lannister with the task of rebuilding it. Jaime apparently does not care very much about his house and Tyrion _definitely_ does not, so I imagine that either Tommen or Myrcella will be the ones who shall be burdened with restoring House Lannister. What does everyone else say about that?


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## Hugo Hill (Aug 13, 2011)

^^^ yollo will get his birthright


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## Nakor (Aug 13, 2011)

I agree. Tyrion actually does care about The Rock. He's said he doesn't care about the gold, he just wants The Rock for his own.


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## Yakuza (Aug 13, 2011)

Hopefully the "_Encyclopedia of Ice and Fire_" coming next year will have a full world map.



Saw this on devArt  @Bran


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## Yakuza (Aug 13, 2011)

Cyanide Studios making a GoT RPG...





And there is also a  Comic book (September)


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## Dash (Aug 14, 2011)

Spoilers for SoS.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Robb and Catelyn were just killed. I don't know what else to say besides that I've been trolled.


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## FitzChivalry (Aug 14, 2011)

Yakuza said:


> Hopefully the "_Encyclopedia of Ice and Fire_" coming next year will have a full world map.
> 
> 
> 
> Saw this on devArt  @Bran



I was amused up until the "Stark in Winterfell" question. The Bran/tree pic made me burst out laughing. This looks fun though; I'd like to answer the questions.

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
Strong, _strong_ word of mouth from a bunch of NF people about 6 or 7 years ago. Read a page or two, put it down, and didn't touch it for a few months, and I don't know why. Once I picked it up, I couldn't put it down.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Jon Snow (can you tell?) first and foremost. Tyrion next. Then an assortment of different characters I like in varying degrees: Jaime, Davos, Jon Connington come to mind. I just enjoy reading their chapters. The Theon chapters in _Dance_ were amazing.

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
Jon and Val. If some of you are asking, _Whatchu tombout, son?_ Val's been set up as a love interest. Certainly there wasn't any painfully obvious signs, but there were clear enough signs pointing that way. Maybe watch for that to develop in the next book.

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
No one? Let's go with Tyrion x Cersei then. Ha!

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Ramsay Snow. If not him, insert a random Frey. 

*6. What is your favorite theory?*

Rhaegar/Lyanna being Jon's parents, easily. It's not even a theory to me. My mind's already registered it as canon.

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*

Jon. Man I'm a mark for this guy. But really, several things point to it, most importantly Robb's legitimization letter.

*8. What is your favorite scene?*

Ned's beheading, I guess. That one execution launched the War of the Five Kings, and we got to read awesome things because of it. Jon beheading Janos Slynt was sweet.

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*

Arianne Martell.

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*

Walder Frey. I already had Ramsay in a category. Thought I'd spread the love. Or hate.

*11. What is your favorite quote?*

"If he couldn't drink it, fight it, fuck it, it didn't interest him. And neither do you...you Brave Companions."


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## Yakuza (Aug 14, 2011)

Dash said:


> Spoilers for SoS.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Welcome to A Song of Ice and Fire..... GRRM is the super troll.


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## FitzChivalry (Aug 14, 2011)

I would advise against being attached to any character in the series. They could be killed at any given time. Only three of them have any sort of decent chance of seeing it through to the end of the book.


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## abcd (Aug 14, 2011)

Dash said:


> Spoilers for SoS.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



What about Arya?? 


I'd like to answer the questions too 

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
My colleague constantly told me about the book a few years ago and i read it ... Took 1 month to finish the first book, finished the other 3 in a week 

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Arya is my fav, Then its tyrion, little finger and Varys, then Jon snow & dany

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
Jon and melisandre.

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
Val and Melisandre 

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Uncat

*6. What is your favorite theory?*

*The great faceless men theory* involving varys, faceless men, others and dragons 

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*

Rickon after he eats ramsay bolton salad 

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
Brans dream chapter in book 1 before he wakes up... lots of foreshadowing, then Danys at the undying 

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*

Val

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Stannis' wife

*11. What is your favorite quote?*

"the things I do for love"- Loras tyrell


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## Han Solo (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
Had it recommended to me after I read the Farseer trilogy.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Tywin Lannister
Roose Bolton
Varys
Littlefinger
Brienne
Davos Seawoth
Stannis Baratehon
Melisandre
Every Stark

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
Stannis/Melisandre/Selyse. It's hilarious.

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
Sansa/someone who doesn't try to rape her. (Sansa/Margaery maybe?)

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Any pointlessly evil character. Ramsay Snow, Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, Joffrey Baratheon. Nothing is more boring than pure evil in a morally grey world.

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
The Others win and humanity is wiped out for being a bunch of selfish cunts.

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
Rickon.

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
Ned's death.

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
Arianne Martell or Ellaria Sand.

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Ramsay Snow for being a giant bore.

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
'Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely. And Rhaegar died. '


----------



## Dash (Aug 14, 2011)

abcd said:


> What about Arya??




*Spoiler*: __ 



 I stopped reading after Catelyn's death. Arya's chapter is up next but I can't get myself to read it just yet.


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
IIRC it was before 2000, I picked it up on a library because I heard about it's violence and rapes.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Victarion Greyjoy, Jaquen H'gar, Davos Seaworth, Selmy Barristen, Oberyn Martell & Brynden Tully.

Jon Connington & Bloodraven too.

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
It's fair to say I hate all of them.

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
Wyman Manderly/Illyrio Mopatis.

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Cersei Lannister, Joffrey Lannister Baratheon, Sansa Stark & Catelyn Tully.

*6. What is your favorite theory?*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Raehgar + Lyanna = John, Gerion Lannister = Corsair King, Coldhands = Benjen


 & The Others winning.

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
Jon and/or Bran.

*8. What is your favorite scene?*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Red Wedding because of its emotional and psychological impact in all of Westeros


Plus Viserys dying was pretty funny.

But nothing compare to the background lore we are given by all characters regarding the kingdom prior to Roberts rebellion/during it.

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
Varys, because that would be awkward.

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Obviously Walder/Roose/Ramsay/Cersei.... But also Daenerys, she is dull and her chapters are only entertaining when she is not the subject.

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
_"If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."_ - Eddard Stark.

And _"Words are wind."_ - Everybody... I like it because it explains the book quite well, nothing goes according to plan.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 14, 2011)

abcd said:


> *11. What is your favorite quote?*
> 
> "the things I do for love"- Loras tyrell


 you trollin'


----------



## abcd (Aug 14, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> you trollin'



           .


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 14, 2011)

Loras is too manly to talk like that.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
Was at the airport in 2004, a girl in front of my was holding _Eye of the World_,   (and was attractive, somewhat of a novelty for me at that time, don't   see many reading fantasy). so I struck up a conversation. We had   different connecting flights but spoke for fours hours, during which she   recommended GRRM.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Littlefinger, Rhaegar Targaryen. And to a lesser extent: Jaquen H'gar, Davos, Jaime, and Tyrion.

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
I hate them all.

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
dun care about ships except for Rhaegar/Lyanna.

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Sansa & Catelyn.

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
Rhaegar & Lyanna actually in love, not because of some prophecy, and not rape. 

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
Bran, after he wargs with a tree.

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
When Theon meets his sister for the first time, starting from "now there  is a pretty grin". That whole scene is sex wrapped in swaddling. 

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
Melisandre. Auburn hair + her personality. Jesus Christ that's hot. 

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Sansa, Daenerys

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
_"_ _but don't go looking for me to bend the knee and m'lord you every time you take a shit_._ I'm no man's toady_."

_" 'How would you like to die, Tyrion son of Tywin?' 
'In my own bed, with a belly full of wine and a maiden's mouth around my cock' "_


----------



## FitzChivalry (Aug 14, 2011)

*Spoiler*: _Stark in Winterfell_ 



Rickon's going to be the Stark Winterfell? I doubt that. Two best options are the fake bastard at the Vale, Alayne Stone, and the real bastard up north, Lord Snow. Bran's time as a Stark is all but done. He's a cripple who can bear no children. He's onto much grander things, with all the skinchanging and greenseeing. Rickon's four. I could say more...but Rickon's four. He can be used as a figurehead to rally the north, sure, but so can Jon, who has Ned's face and all of Robb and Ned's leadership abilities, as well as skill as a fighter.

I'll go real in depth about it later, but my belief is that Winterfell will be Jon's. I have some grand overarching theory about it, that attempts to tie everything together. Of course, I'll probably wrong on every count, since this ain't a Shounen manga, which is relatively easy to predict.





Han Solo said:


> *9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
> *Arianne Martell* or Ellaria Sand.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 14, 2011)

He's cripple, not castrated.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Aug 14, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> He's cripple, not castrated.



In Game of Thrones or Clash of Kings, either Ned or Robb said he couldn't. Obviously if it was Ned, it was in Game of Thrones. If it was Robb, could've been in either. Something like, "He will never be a knight, bear any sons," etc, etc. I'll see if I can dig that quote up. And of course, things in the book can change. Magic exists, or they could just be plain wrong about it, but my source is in the books. He doesn't need to be cockless.


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## Yakuza (Aug 14, 2011)

Varys knows best


----------



## FitzChivalry (Aug 14, 2011)

> “He was going to be a knight,” Arya was saying now. “A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?”
> “No,” Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. “Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king’s council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother’s Faith and become the High Septon.” _But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms._



This was before Bran woke up so he could be wrong, but there is where I got it from.


Yakuza said:


> Varys knows best



Joffrey.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
When I first joined this forum and was still posting in the Library there was a thread about how shit Naruto was. Then it spiraled into a discussion about ASoIaF and how great it was and bashing GRRM for being fat/lazy/old and the wait for ADwD. The series caught my attention and I decided to read it.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Tyrion, Jaime, Robb, Bran, Littlefinger, The Hound

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
Not big on shipping, but I guess I'll say Bran/Meera.

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
Dunno.

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Walder Frey and nearly all of the Meereenese characters. Particularly Daario. 

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
Bran being manipulated by Bloodraven and is unknowingly on the side of the Others.

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
I want it to be Bran, but I think it'll be Rickon.

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
A lot of the usual one's have been said but my favourite underrated scene is the one where Arya hears the story of how Gregor gives an innkeeper a silver coin, rapes his daughter, kills his son, and then asks for change back because she wasn't worth the full price.

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
Val.

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Zombie Cat.

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
I was going to say the Rhaegar one but another one of my favourites is: _"In the end, Tywin Lannister did not in fact shit gold."_


----------



## abcd (Aug 14, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Loras is too manly to talk like that.



^The things he did for love 

I added more effect to it since i am bored


----------



## Coteaz (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
Read about it on TV Tropes, forgot about it, then was in a bookstore and noticed the series. Picked up GoT and off I went.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Stannis Baratheon
Tywin Lannister
Brown Ben Plumm

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
Bran x Meera (it's fact)

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
None

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Anyone who bores me

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
I forget

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
None, they'll all be dead.

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
Stannis breaking the Wildling siege of the Wall.

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
Brienne

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Daenerys

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
"Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends."


----------



## Nayrael (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
Saw AGOT in library, wanted to read some fantasy and borrowed it.
Yeah I know... a boring story ^_^;

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Stannis Baratheon
Tywin Lannister
Arya Stark
Sansa Stark
Littlefinger

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
None

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
One sided Gendry x Arya

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Craster

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
"We will get troll'd by never finding out who Jon's parents are"

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
Rickon Stark.

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
Never shown scene of Stannis coming to Northern Clans and partying with them, as well as nicely asking them to go for some conquering for lulz... with his vassals making faces you never knew existed.

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
Margery Tyrell

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Victarion Greyjoy
Daario
Xaro

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
Quotes... for some reason they tend to fail to capture my interest :/


----------



## Serp (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
Word of mouth from people and then hearing HBO took up the series, I decided to read through the first book, got hooked and then read the whole series months before HBO even aired episode one.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Rhaegar Targaryen, TV Viserys, Rickon+Shaggydog, Davos, Roose, Barristan the Boss, Jaime post Clash.

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
Rhaegar and Jon. Gendry and Arya

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
Rickon and Dickon Gay emperors of Essos. 

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Cat

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
R+L=J without a doubt.

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
King Rickon

*8. What is your favorite scene?*

I do like the scene of when Dany meets the new Khal in Dance alot actually, its rising up. Or house of undying or Dracarys!  Why are they all Dany scenes.

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*

Mel

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*

Rather wish Daario didn't exist than kill him, but for someone to just drop dead it would be Ramsay.

*11. What is your favorite quote?*

"Lend my your sword and I'll drown you in gold."
"I've seen a man drowned in gold it wasn't pretty, if you get my sword it will be throw your bowels."
"A sure cure for constipation, just ask my father."


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 14, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> *3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
> Rhaegar and Jon.


Not sure if you trolling, but I do believe JonCon was gay for Rae, and I mean it _not_ in the old English definition of the word.


----------



## Serp (Aug 14, 2011)

A little trolling  Look at my Avatar to see the real answer.


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 14, 2011)

The only reason I bought this forward is because a lot of people thinking, at least through JonCon POV in ADWD, that he was very, _very_ fond of Rae... Obviously there is nothing mentioned in the books, at least I can't recall, that suggest Rae was a double-edge sword...

And if it did come to that, what was stopping Rae from being loving Lyanna & JonCon?

Trolling can be a dangerous business


----------



## Serp (Aug 14, 2011)

Well it was a given that Griff was hard for Rhaegar. But I don't think that Rhae liked him in that way.

And alot of Ships in book or whatnot are one sided.


----------



## Parallax (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
Pretty much I've wanted to read the series for awhile since word of mouth but I didn't get started till the HBO show started.  And even then that took awhile for me to even start cause I was so busy

Once I got time I started the series and have been hooked

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Stannis
Jaquen
Arya
The Hound
Jamie
Tywin
Tyrion
The Red Viper
Lord Commander Mormont
Mance Rayder
Jon Snow

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
None

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
None 

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Walder Frey or Cersei

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
Rhaegar impregnating the Stark woman causing the birth of Jon Show

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
Probably Rickon which is the most obvious/lame choice :x

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
I really like most of Davos' scenes with Stannis.  

I don't really know this is a hard question

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*

Arianne Martell

or Asha

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*

Daario must die

and for awhile Theon but that has changed

*11. What is your favorite quote?*

"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day." 


there are a lot of other but I can't think of many more right now

oh and obviously that Rhaegar quote from ASOS that everyone loves[/QUOTE]


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 14, 2011)

Indeed, however the thing that hammers the back of my mind is GRRM. He is a master troll, anything and everything is possible.


----------



## Serp (Aug 14, 2011)

Rhaegar never snitched, Rhaegar stayed off the rock, Rhaegar looked after his bitches... Rhaegar got a cap in his ass.


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 14, 2011)

Thats the story TreeBran will be telling the on the G8 summit 2011 for the newer generation to better understand...


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 14, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*

General praise around NF. Mainly in the Battledome Convo thread. I honestly can't remember exactly what made me go out and buy it or when I did but damn I fell in love.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*

First and foremost I think it is Arya. There are a lot of characters I enjoy but I am putting her at number 1 for now. 

Arya, Jaime, Tyrion, Jon and many more.

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*

Ship?

Seems that means love matches or whatever. Never heard of it though 

Anyway I don't really care about that type of thing. So none.

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*

Again, don't really care......

Arya X random Wildling.

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*

Sansa.

*6. What is your favorite theory?*

Haven't read many of them so can't really say. I guess R/L stuff.

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*

Jon, Rickon or Arya. I could see Arya being a She-wolf leader. 

*8. What is your favorite scene?*

Too many to choose from. Red Wedding was awesome, Robb being declared KotN and Ned and friends vs. KG flashback come to mind. 

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*

Hmm.....Maybe Daenerys. She got that fire (literally ) and she learned all of those tricks for pleasing her man. Plus she is supposed to be pretty damn hot......And she can't get pregnant 

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*

Sansa.

*11. What is your favorite quote?*

Too many to choose from.


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 14, 2011)

Yakuza said:


> Not sure if you trolling, but I do believe JonCon was gay for Rae, and I mean it _not_ in the old English definition of the word.


He was totally gay for Rhaegar. At first you think "wow they were really close friends", then as his POV's continue it's obvious he wanted nothing more than for Rhaegar to bust nut in his arse while playing the harp. Actually reminded me of Sam's feelings for Frodo.


----------



## eHav (Aug 15, 2011)

hmmm, i think this will be my first post here.. i got the first book(wich here in portugal is only half of the first book, since they split them all in 2 parts) some years ago, as a gift from my uncle, but i never got around to reading it since it brought too many characters all at once, but then the series came out and i watched it and then i could relate more to the characters in the book..when season 1 ended i couldnt wait for the second one and i started reading the books. i bought the 7 i was missing, up to the end of a feast of crows, and then i bought A dance with dragons in english, since there isnt a portuguese version yet, and its a lot cheaper than having to buy it divided in 2 books -.-
i havent read it yet, wich is something ill start today but all the story up to now is one of the best ones i have read so far..

anyway


*Spoiler*: __ 



my favourite characters so far are Jamie, mostly due to how he turned his actions kinda around(burning cersei's letter), Tyrion(realy, who doesnt love Tyrion?), and after reading the last bit of feast of crows, mr Littlefinger, for the way he seems to be so much in controll of whats happening.
I hope brienne doesnt die and meets jamie again, and im still wondering what the hell is going on with zombie Cat.. and where does Dondarion's power to bring others back to life comes from O_O.

anyway, i hope that guy that Sam meets finds Daenerys, and i wonder if the iron islands guy will really tame a dragon 

amazing, simply amazing and i cant wait for more


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 15, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> He was totally gay for Rhaegar. At first you think "wow they were really close friends", then as his POV's continue it's obvious he wanted nothing more than for Rhaegar to bust nut in his arse while playing the harp. Actually reminded me of Sam's feelings for Frodo.


Bust-a-nut is an understatement. I like JonCon, but then his POV is totally dedicated to Raeghar nuts.. Less of that and more of his bold approach should make him well worth the read next book, until he die of course.

Frodo & Sam... 



eHav said:


> hmmm, i think this will be my first post here.. i got the first book(wich here in portugal is only half of the first book, since they split them all in 2 parts) some years ago, as a gift from my uncle, but i never got around to reading it since it brought too many characters all at once, but then the series came out and i watched it and then i could relate more to the characters in the book..when season 1 ended i couldnt wait for the second one and i started reading the books. i bought the 7 i was missing, up to the end of a feast of crows, and then i bought A dance with dragons in english, since there isnt a portuguese version yet, and its a lot cheaper than having to buy it divided in 2 books -.-
> i havent read it yet, wich is something ill start today but all the story up to now is one of the best ones i have read so far..
> 
> anyway
> ...


Welcome dude, and yeah, As Cronicas de Gelo e Fogo are really awesome 

If there is one thing I love about it is the amount of plots, sub-plots and characters involved in this spiderweb of conspiracies and theories... Add in the fact GRRM loves trolling characters then you have a edge-of-the-seat series that are extremely well written and complex yet easy to follow.



The only bad thing I have to say about it is GRRM ruined the fantasy/sci-fi genre for me, all other authors written presentation and story depth are chuunin lvl, apart from Tolkien.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 15, 2011)

Apparently, GRRM is reading a chapter from _The Winds of Winter_ at a convention.


----------



## Parallax (Aug 15, 2011)

I'd rather him be writing it instead of reading it but cool I guess


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 15, 2011)

He only gonna get started next year, all chapters he currently have for TWOW are rejects from ADWD.... Plus there is the _Encyclopaedia of Ice and Fire_ he is working in collaboration with  which will come out next year... He is working on that before touching TWOW IIRC


----------



## Pineapples (Aug 15, 2011)

It'll probably be up in youtube after the convention, or maybe a textual version in his website.

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
Mostly word of mouth from this section. _A Song of Ice and Fire_ was constantly brought up in a multitude of threads. I became rather curious and decided to pick up the series. 

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
Arya, Barristan, Davos, Varys, Jaime, Bran and Tommen.

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
Jon and Ygritte

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
Arya and Gendry

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Joffrey

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
Barristan Selmy shall be one of the three heads of the dragon (my own theory )

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
I reckon that Rickon will grow to be a rather fearsome Stark lord. 

*8. What is your favorite scene?*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Arya fervently stabbing the Tickler in the back. It was just a really special moment for her in the book. You could feel her pain; understand (and feel a little afraid of) how her travelings and wandering affected her character. I felt shivers.

_Is there gold hidden in the village? Is there silver? Gems? Is there food? Where is Lord Beric? Where did he go? How many men were with him? How many knights? How many bowmen? How many, how many, how many, how many, how many, how many? Is there gold in the village?​_



*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
Emilia Clar-, I mean Daenerys or Arianne Martell

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Old man Frey. Theon (at least earlier on)

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
_Egg... I dreamed I was old._

I feel sad whenever I think of that line.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Aug 15, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Apparently, GRRM is reading a chapter from _The Winds of Winter_ at a convention.


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 15, 2011)

Hodor.... 

Every time I see a tall person at work I greet him/her as Hodor.


----------



## Pineapples (Aug 15, 2011)

Oh my lord, I just died 

I might have to reconsider my favorite theory:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Hodor is the Prince Who Was Promised


----------



## abcd (Aug 19, 2011)

Pineapples said:


> Oh my lord, I just died
> 
> I might have to reconsider my favorite theory:
> 
> ...



HE could be related to Ser Duncan the tall


----------



## Lucaniel (Aug 19, 2011)

Pineapples said:


> *8. What is your favorite scene?*
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



yes! i absolutely loved that, it was amazing. how many, how many, how many? fantastic scene


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Aug 19, 2011)

With so many other users here answering those questions, I shall provide my own answers to them, as well.

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
A friend recommended it to me, saying that it was an awesome series, and I agree that that friend was correct.

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
There is such a great amount of characters from whom to choose, but my favorite is Jon Snow, because he is one of the few honorable and traditionally heroic characters in the series. I also am very fond of Petyr Baelish, better known as Littlefinger, because of how clever and competent he is and that he is apparently at least partially responsible for many of the current events in Westeros, most notably the War of the Five Kings.

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
Again, there are many choices, but I am very fond of Jon and Ygritte and Jaime and Cersei.

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
I particularly like Arya and Gendry, Bran and Meera, and Jaime and Brienne.

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
Again, there are many choices, but most likely Lord Walder Frey, for his treasonous actions in _A Storm of Swords._

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
That Jon is the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
At this point in the series, there is no way to be certain of that, but I believe that each of the surviving Stark children has a chance to become the Lord (or Lady) of Winterfell. 

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
Again, there are so many choices, but my particular favorites are: Robb and Lords of the North declaring their independence at the end of _A Game of Thrones,_ the Red Wedding in _A Storm of Swords,_ and Tyrion killing Tywin in _ASoS._

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
Again, there are many characters from whom to choose, but some of my particular choices would be Asha Greyjoy, Mya Stone, Melisandre, or Daenerys Targaryen.

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
Definitely Lord Frey, for the same reasons that I gave above.

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
There are so many epic lines in this series that I could not possibly choose any one. Perhaps after I return home today, I shall check through my books and see if I can find a quotation that of which I particularly fond.


----------



## Lucaniel (Aug 19, 2011)

*1. Why did you first pick up the book?*
probably heard it was good from word of mouth, but i may have also simply thought it looked interesting when picking it up in the library

*2. Who are your favorite characters?*
tyrion, oh man, tyrion. then daenerys, eddard, jon, jaime, littlefinger, the hound, arya, sometimes even stannis, davos, barristan, too many to list

*3. What is your favorite canon ship?*
never paid attention to pairings

*4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?*
see above

*5. Who is your least favorite character?*
ramsay snow, the freys, joffrey, cersei

*6. What is your favorite theory?*
i'm not much for speculation

*7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?*
jon!

*8. What is your favorite scene?*
arya killing the smiler, bran's dream when he was in a coma, 

*9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?*
arianne martell, lady merryweather

*10. You can kill anyone, who is it?*
walder frey, brown ben plumm, most of the traitorous types. 

*11. What is your favorite quote?*
arya's words when killing the smiler, "valar morghulis", practically half the things the hound said, jaime educating brienne about the reality of the world, and many others


----------



## Dash (Aug 19, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



So Jon turns down Winterfell to be Lord Commander? Kind of disappointed, I was always pulling for him to be the Lord and the North is pretty fucked up right now. Plus Robb named him his heir. Oh well =/ 

Petyr killing Lysa was epic though.


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 19, 2011)

1. Why did you first pick up the book?
I heard about it a while ago but did not pick this book up until the 3rd episode of Game opf thrones.. Yes I'm a newb. Downed the first book in 2 weeks... Then got thru the next 3 done in the following 4 weeks. Waited a whole 2 or 3 weeks for the new book LOL.

2. Who are your favorite characters?
Jon, Melisandre, Arya, Barristan, Davos, Varys, Jaime, Stannis

3. What is your favorite canon ship?
Jon and Ygritte

4. What is your favorite non-canon ship?
Jon and Dany

5. Who is your least favorite character?
Joff

6. What is your favorite theory?
That Jon is AAR. Its an interesting theory with lots of story potential.

7. Who is going to be the Stark in Winterfell in the end?
Sansa.

8. What is your favorite scene?

The scene when Tyrion was at the wall, making fun of Sir Allister Thorn. It was the best!Mormont was cracking up LOL. Best scene ever lol.

9. You can sleep with anyone in these books, which one is it?
Melisandra... Gotz to be some warm stuff! LOL

10. You can kill anyone, who is it?
Ramsey Bolton

11. What is your favorite quote?

I don't know who my mother was, said Jon Snow, Tyrion replied, Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are. LOL


----------



## KidTony (Aug 19, 2011)

^^ You should do the experiment and read AFFC/ADWD side by side. They are two halfs to the same book.

Here's the reading order.


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 19, 2011)

KidTony said:


> ^^ You should do the experiment and read AFFC/ADWD side by side. They are two halfs to the same book.
> 
> Here's the reading order.



Is this a official order? Can you confirm it? Because I am all up for re-reading both side-by-side


----------



## The Imp (Aug 19, 2011)

Why do Jon and Sam's chapters start so late in the chronology?


----------



## cha-uzu (Aug 19, 2011)

KidTony said:


> ^^ You should do the experiment and read AFFC/ADWD side by side. They are two halfs to the same book.
> 
> Here's the reading order.


Hmmmm I may have to do that! I been thumbing thru the books so much lately. i might as well lol.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 21, 2011)

Yakuza said:


> Is this a official order? Can you confirm it? Because I am all up for re-reading both side-by-side



There's no official order, just some guy piecing the bits chronological over at westeros. Its a solid list though.


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 21, 2011)

KidTony said:


> There's no official order, just some guy piecing the bits chronological over at westeros. Its a solid list though.



Alright.. Gonna give it a try...


----------



## Angoobo (Aug 21, 2011)

Just finished ASoS, how more awesome can this series get?


----------



## The Imp (Aug 21, 2011)

You just reached the peak of the series...


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 21, 2011)

Finally finished ADwD the other night.

Varys! 

[sp]Also, through the whole book I couldn't help but thinking about Mirri Maz Duur prophecy: "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."​I can't help but feel that it will happen in some form.

The most obvious symbol is the sun, the sign of House Martell. In this book, Quentyn travels from the West to the East, where he dies. That could be seen as the sun setting, though since Quentyn travels from Dorne in secret, he can't really be seen as having risen in the West.

Of course, rather than representing a single character, the sun may represent the power and influence of House Martell. Before he died Quentyn promises Pentos to the Tattered Prince; essentially Dorne will rise to war in the West and for its aid in taking Pentos, the banner will be raised in Pentos, a Free City in the East.

I'm still working on the other symbols though.[/sp]


----------



## The Imp (Aug 21, 2011)

Doctor Crane said:


> Finally finished ADwD the other night.
> 
> Varys!
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



There's been a lot of discussion over this in this thread and on other forums. The general consensus is that Quentyn fits the first line. He is born in the west and dies in the east. The seas going dry is in reference to the Dothraki sea. The mountains blowing in the wind doesn't fit as nicely but it could be Dany's dragons destroying the Pyramids. In the last chapter she isn't showing signs of the flux but of a miscarriage; the child probably being Daario's. The return of Drogo is really the remnants of Drogo's khalasar returning to her. 

Despite all that I don't want the prophecy to come true. A barren Dany conquering Westeros to reclaim her birth right despite knowing she is the end of her line is much more interesting than her ruling Westeros happily ever after with her children succeeding her. That premise alone is a great direction for the story even though we know Jon is a Targ.


----------



## Lucaniel (Aug 21, 2011)

Angoobo said:


> Just finished ASoS, how more awesome can this series get?



         .


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 21, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> There's been a lot of discussion over this in this thread and on other forums.


[sp]Yeah, catching up with this thread is taking some time.

In the Epilogue, when Pycelle asks Kevan for guards, Kevan quips that Pycelle should hire "the Mountain's men." It's been awhile since I've read some of the other books and I can't seem to find reference to them online. Who does Kevan mean by this?[/sp]


----------



## Nae'blis (Aug 21, 2011)

Honourable gentlemen and scholars like Raff the Sweetling, Polliver, the Tickler, Chyswick.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 21, 2011)

Angoobo said:


> Just finished ASoS, how more awesome can this series get?



ASOS is the best. The next two books aren't as good. The 4th is definitely the 'worst' in the series, the 5th picks up again but it doesn't reach ASOS greatness.


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 21, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Honourable gentlemen and scholars like Raff the Sweetling, Polliver, the Tickler, Chyswick.


I.      lol'd


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Aug 21, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> That premise alone is a great direction for the story even though we know Jon is a Targ.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Are you referring to Jon Snow? If so, there still is no proof that he is the child of a Targaryen; there is strong evidence to suggest that he is, but still nothing conclusive. The fact that Martin has kept the identity of Jon's mother a secret for five books now is clear evidence to me that her identity shall indeed be very important to the story.

Also, I really liked how Kevan Lannister began to understand why Cersei did not like Mace Tyrell in the epilogue: "the more he was given, the more he wanted." I definitely am hoping that House Tyrell suffers some major disaster soon, as they are one of the few major houses that has not suffered yet in the series.


Also, has anyone else noticed that House Arryn and the rest of the Vale have been conspicuously absent from the War of the Five Kings? I am definitely expecting some major developments from them in the next book.


----------



## Felix (Aug 21, 2011)

House Arryn will probably be a boon to the Starks or Dorne/Targaryens.

They have been absent for a reason, first for Lysa's madness, second for Littlefinger scheming.
And he wants Sansa sitting on Winterfell...


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 22, 2011)

The Imp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Despite all that I don't want the prophecy to come true. A barren Dany conquering Westeros to reclaim her birth right despite knowing she is the end of her line is much more interesting than her ruling Westeros happily ever after with her children succeeding her. That premise alone is a great direction for the story even though we know Jon is a Targ.


[sp]We also know Aegon is a Targaryen.

Also ADwD revealed that the Martells made an agreement for Viserys to marry Arianne, however, with the death of Viserys the agreement was modified for Daenerys to marry Quentyn. With Quentyn dead and Trystane betrothed to Myrcella, the agreement will likely shift to Aegon marrying Arianne.[/sp]


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 22, 2011)

You mean 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Aegon?




Could be a fake. The mummer's dragon.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 22, 2011)

Yeah, I do.  I kept telling myself not to switch them up and what do I end up doing.


----------



## Yakuza (Aug 22, 2011)

I got to say I won't be satisfied with the series if Westeros don't get ravaged by the Others and a lot of people dying....

I want no Dragon saves the day despite the odds fairytale ending.


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## Dionysus (Aug 22, 2011)

Jon's gonna solo 100 Others, all at once, with godly sword work. GRRM will contrast the beginning of his series with an end where all the Gary and Mary Sues come out to save the world.


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 22, 2011)

I heard some users here saying that Melisandre's power was stronger at the Wall. I find that to be very odd, as Melisandre worships a deity of fire, light, and warmth, while the Wall is a place of cold, death, and darkness. Why would her power be greater in a place that is the exact opposite of her?



Yakuza said:


> I got to say I won't be satisfied with the series if Westeros don't get ravaged by the Others and a lot of people dying....
> 
> I want no Dragon saves the day despite the odds fairytale ending.



So, are you saying that you like death, destruction, and depressing endings?  I see no problem with having hundreds of people die, the land being devastated, and there being much suffering and despair, and then having a happy ending that gives the reader hope for a better future. For example,
*Spoiler*: _Harry Potter Book 7 spoilers_ 



More characters died in the seventh _Harry Potter_ book than did in the previous six combined, and there was much despair and suffering, but the book ultimately had a happy ending that showed that the series had come full circle.


After all the deaths and tragedies that have occurred, I can imagine that this series may have such an ending.


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## Felix (Aug 22, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> You mean
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I still think the Mummer's Dragon refers to Aegon being the ace card of Viserys, which used to be a Mummer


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## Dionysus (Aug 22, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I heard some users here saying that Melisandre's power was stronger at the Wall. I find that to be very odd, as Melisandre worships a deity of fire, light, and warmth, while the Wall is a place of cold, death, and darkness. Why would her power be greater in a place that is the exact opposite of her?


Mel herself stated this. Ask her. We have no clue how the Wall was made nor much about how magic works in general.



Felix said:


> I still think the Mummer's Dragon refers to Aegon being the ace card of Viserys, which used to be a Mummer


Like all the prophecies, it's all murky. I'd prefer him to be a fake. (And be toasted and eaten by Rhaegal.)


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## The Imp (Aug 22, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I heard some users here saying that Melisandre's power was stronger at the Wall. I find that to be very odd, as Melisandre worships a deity of fire, light, and warmth, while the Wall is a place of cold, death, and darkness. Why would her power be greater in a place that is the exact opposite of her?



This is just speculation on my part but we know the Wall has magic in it that prevents Others from crossing. It could be "fire magic" or maybe because "ice magic" is weaker there, Mel feels stronger.

Regarding the ending of the series, I want it to be bittersweet and I want the Others to wreak havoc for as long as they can. I want assholes like Littlefinger to realize how pointless their scheming really is.


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## Dionysus (Aug 22, 2011)

I wouldn't call Littlefinger's scheming pointless. It's dangerous without all the information; it's also shaped the political realm, so in practical terms it's important. I don't see Littlefinger having less of a point in what he does than anyone else (in a general philosophical sense). Unless relevance of action is measured in one's ability to thwart the advance of icemen.


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## The Imp (Aug 22, 2011)

In the sense that no matter how high Littlefinger manages to climb the social ladder (which at this point seems to be his driving reason for everything he's done), it's not going to mean shit once you have ice zombies marching south to destroy and kill everything in Westeros.


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## Yakuza (Aug 22, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> So, are you saying that you like death, destruction, and depressing endings?  I see no problem with having hundreds of people die, the land being devastated, and there being much suffering and despair, and then having a happy ending that gives the reader hope for a better future. For example,
> *Spoiler*: _Harry Potter Book 7 spoilers_
> 
> 
> ...


Westeros has, since book one, been riding on a one-way river to destruction.

The way the series has been set up only implicates that the continent will be destroyed, or at least I hope. I am not a fan of depressing ends, but this books deserves something very bitter because the author is a cock blocker.

I seriously cannot wait for how he is going to troll us.


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## The Imp (Aug 22, 2011)

This is what I want to see happen: Someone blows the Horn and the Wall comes crashing down. The Others begin invading the 7 Kingdoms. The Watch and the North rallies together when they see this supernatural threat and begin retreating South. The Northerners face heavy losses in a handful of battles on their way to the Riverlands. The South is still in the midst of their civil war but rallies under Daenerys because of her dragons once they learn of the Others. Humanity makes its stand at the Trident under Dany, the other 2 dragonriders and her dragons. They have a giant climactic battle and the Others are defeated but the dragons and dragonriders die in the process. 

There are still a ton of loose ends but that is the general direction of how I want the series to end.


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## Han Solo (Aug 22, 2011)

I honestly don't want Dany to save Westeros at this point. Westeros has screwed itself so hard that it deserves to lie in the bed it's made. If you're going to waste all your resources on ultimately trivial rubbish you should be punished for it.

Or at least if Westeros is going to survive I hope it isn't because of a completely foreign person saving it. Save your own ass.


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## Lucaniel (Aug 22, 2011)

littlefinger isn't an asshole, way too paedophilic over sansa though


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## Han Solo (Aug 22, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> littlefinger isn't an asshole, way too paedophilic over sansa though



Usually I'm not too bothered with having satisfying downfalls of villains, but in this case I absolutely want to see Littlfinger lose everything he worked to attain before he dies, preferably realising all his scheming was completely pointless.

That or he actually doesn't lose at all and gets away with all the crap he's done.


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## The Imp (Aug 22, 2011)

At the end of ADwD, Dany realized she's a terrible ruler but a great conqueror. For me that pretty much solidifies the idea that she'll die facing the Others instead of sitting on the iron throne afterwards.


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## Sesha (Aug 22, 2011)

The Imp said:


> This is what I want to see happen: Someone blows the Horn and the Wall comes crashing down. The Others begin invading the 7 Kingdoms. The Watch and the North rallies together when they see this supernatural threat and begin retreating South. The Northerners face heavy losses in a handful of battles on their way to the Riverlands. The South is still in the midst of their civil war but rallies under Daenerys because of her dragons once they learn of the Others. Humanity makes its stand at the Trident under Dany, the other 2 dragonriders and her dragons. They have a giant climactic battle and the Others are defeated but the dragons and dragonriders die in the process.
> 
> There are still a ton of loose ends but that is the general direction of how I want the series to end.



I don't want the South to end up mostly unharmed towards the end. Everything between the Riverlands and Dorne is ripe for the torch. Especially King's Landing.

If anything, Westeros will tear itself apart through politics and internal conflicts. The Others should on hand to deliver the finishing blow.


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## The Imp (Aug 22, 2011)

Yeah I want them to go farther South but I remember Dany having a dream about riding a dragon over the Trident. Then she sees an army of ice monsters and proceeds to blow fire all over them.


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## Yakuza (Aug 22, 2011)

Yeah realistic the Others don't have to do anything... They just have to sit and watch the kingdom destroy itself then come jousting on their ice spiders just for the lulz


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## Nae'blis (Aug 22, 2011)

^Someone in Westeros is saying "just as planned" now just for that reason.


Lucaniel said:


> littlefinger isn't an asshole, way too paedophilic over sansa though


Isn't Sansa the same age as himself/Catelyn when he was fostered at Riverrun? I think it's more along the lines of him remembering when he fell in love and Sansa, who looks just like Catelyn, and is reliving that time. I mean, there is no other reason for him to do silly shit like build sandcastles with her. Still wants to fuck her though. He'll probably kill off Robert Arryn when he comes of age just to keep Sansa.


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## Tion (Aug 23, 2011)

WINTER IS COMING .


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## Lucaniel (Aug 23, 2011)

...i don't get it. why the hate for littlefinger? he's no more repellent and treacherous than most other characters in this _series of_ repellent and treacherous characters. at least he killed lysa!



Nae'blis said:


> Isn't Sansa the same age as himself/Catelyn when he was fostered at Riverrun? I think it's more along the lines of him remembering when he fell in love and Sansa, who looks just like Catelyn, and is reliving that time. I mean, there is no other reason for him to do silly shit like build sandcastles with her. Still wants to fuck her though. He'll probably kill off Robert Arryn when he comes of age just to keep Sansa.



yeah i understand the source of his desire...but it's still creepy, if i'm honest


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## Yakuza (Aug 23, 2011)

i*c*st and pedophiles are common things in Westeros, nothing surprising there....


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## masamune1 (Aug 23, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> ...i don't get it. why the hate for littlefinger? he's no more repellent and treacherous than most other characters in this _series of_ repellent and treacherous characters. at least he killed lysa!



No...not really. He might be less repellant, but he's definitely more treacherous. He has no clam or familial loyalties, and he betrays on a much more regular basis. Lysa was messed up at least partly because of him, and a lot of her treachery stemmed from following his orders.  

And unlike the others, he's the only one interested in actually causing trouble for its own sake, which makes him automatically the most malicious character in the story.


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## Lucaniel (Aug 23, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> No...not really. He might be less repellant, but he's definitely more treacherous. He has no clam or familial loyalties, and he betrays on a much more regular basis. Lysa was messed up at least partly because of him, and a lot of her treachery stemmed from following his orders.
> 
> And unlike the others, he's the only one interested in actually causing trouble for its own sake, which makes him automatically the most malicious character in the story.



well, okay, he betrays more people, but honestly all of his treacheries are nothing to the red wedding, for me. and lysa was messed up because she was weak and presumptuous and underwent the consequences of her actions, you can''t blame petyr for that. _she_ chose to get in bed with him. as a consequence, she was dumped on an old man, who she didn't love and willingly conspired to murder. it stems from her actions.

that is _technically_ true, but i see him more as chaotic neutral compared to the genuinely awful ramsay, gregor, the brave companions, and so on


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## FitzChivalry (Aug 23, 2011)

The Imp said:


> This is what I want to see happen: Someone blows the Horn and the Wall comes crashing down. The Others begin invading the 7 Kingdoms. The Watch and the North rallies together when they see this supernatural threat and begin retreating South. The Northerners face heavy losses in a handful of battles on their way to the Riverlands. The South is still in the midst of their civil war but rallies under Daenerys because of her dragons once they learn of the Others. Humanity makes its stand at the Trident under Dany, the other 2 dragonriders and her dragons. They have a giant climactic battle and the Others are defeated but the dragons and dragonriders die in the process.
> 
> There are still a ton of loose ends but that is the general direction of how I want the series to end.



Yeah, there is a gigantic hole. Your exclusion of Jon. He'll play as big a role as Dany. Theory later in the day.


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## Mr.Blonde (Aug 23, 2011)

I've been thinking about this for a while and I can't decide

How do you people think Martin will handle the Others?Up until now the Others are just the typical faceless,motiveless evil menace,the orcs of the ASOIAF world if you will.So will they continue to stay that way,or will Martin attempt to humanize them if you will,show that they have a legitimate reason for their actions?Or will it be simply about survival,two species battling over the turf,no right or wrong,just opposing wills to survive?


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## The Imp (Aug 23, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> Yeah, there is a gigantic hole. Your exclusion of Jon. He'll play as big a role as Dany. Theory later in the day.



I've left out a lot of loose ends. Ok let me try fitting Jon into theory (idk if i'd really call it a theory, it's more like what i want to see happen rather than what I think will happen). Jon stays dead until after the Others have started their invasion. The Others have passed by the Wall and are quickly moving South. Jon is revived somehow, probably warg related. He begins rallying the leftover men in the North that chose not to flee at Winterfell. Bran comes South with an army of wargs/children of the forest/other supernatural things. Together Bran and Jon and their army attack the Others from the rear while Dany and her dragons attack from the front.



MrBlonde said:


> I've been thinking about this for a while and I can't decide
> 
> How do you people think Martin will handle the Others?Up until now the Others are just the typical faceless,motiveless evil menace,the orcs of the ASOIAF world if you will.So will they continue to stay that way,or will Martin attempt to humanize them if you will,show that they have a legitimate reason for their actions?Or will it be simply about survival,two species battling over the turf,no right or wrong,just opposing wills to survive?



I think we'll learn more about the Others from Bran but I'm not sure if GRRM is going to humanize them. He already has enough on his plate and an info dump from Bran isn't accomplish what you're suggesting very well.


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## masamune1 (Aug 23, 2011)

I think, in keeping to the Robin Hobb homage/ ripping off themes that seem to permeate this series, the Others will be portrayed as a Red Ships-style threat. They are not going to be humanised and at the end you'll be forgiven for wondering if they were ever the main villain; more Bigger Bad than Big Bad, in other words. It would fit the overall tone of the series better , methinks, since Cersei, Littlefinger, or some other human character will end up fulfilling the role.

That, or half the villains will become Wights, maybe semi-sentient Wights. I don't think the Others will be humanised, and I think the story will suffer if they were.


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## The Imp (Aug 23, 2011)

The Red Ships were pretty much defeated off screen. GRRM better give the Others better treatment than that. If Martin sticks to the 7 books plan, a good chunk of ADoS better be devoted to the War.


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## Parallax (Aug 23, 2011)

At this point I really doubt it'll be 7 books.

Unless the last two are huge monsters of pages


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## Nae'blis (Aug 23, 2011)

If he wants to finish it in two more books, I'm not sure. It can be done, but I doubt it considering the loose ends. The Others would have to invade in the next book. And depending on who Azar Ahai is (but regardless for Jon), Daenerys or Jon would need to be in a position to stop them. I would laugh if the Others only battle in the North, thus keeping everyone in the south oblivious to their existence still. It would be the same as it was the last time, no one south of the Wall believes in them.

Daenerys could as easily not ever return to Mereen, leave Selmy and everyone else to their fate, with Drogon carrying her to Westeros. But there are way too many loose ends.


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## Yakuza (Aug 23, 2011)

All GRRM has to do is make TWOW & ADOS the size or bigger than ASOS.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 23, 2011)

Yakuza said:


> All GRRM has to do is make TWOW & ADOS the size or bigger than ASOS.


Well, I guess I mean he can't finish it in 2000 pages.


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## The Imp (Aug 23, 2011)

Yakuza said:


> All GRRM has to do is make TWOW & ADOS the size or bigger than ASOS.



Size isn't going to solve the problem. It's his pacing. There are too many POVs, its become too sprawling. The first 3 books had roughly 10 POVs each. The story was tighter and he could advance the plot further. Feast and Dance are supposed to be one book. Together they have at least 20-25.


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## Yakuza (Aug 23, 2011)

Yeah however Im pretty sure with POV characters meeting up and POV characters dying those numbers will shrink quickly.


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## Parallax (Aug 23, 2011)

Yeah I figure that killing them off would do it

but at this point I don't want a good chunk of them to die : [


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## Felix (Aug 24, 2011)

A lot of POVs will become redundant.
Hell, we have 4-5 POVs just in Meeren
Asha and Theon POVs can be blended.
Jon and Melisandre
Connington and Aryanne (I do believe the Martells shall ally themselves to Aegon)

It's possible, very possible.


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## The Imp (Aug 24, 2011)

Hopefully he decides to just drop them as POVs instead of butchering half of them just for the sake of space. I expect a few of them to die soon (Victarion, Barristan, Connigton) and he did drop Theon for Storm and Feast.


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## Parallax (Aug 24, 2011)

Not Barristan :[

yeah I figure once people start meeting up all the POV's will blend in and shorten


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## Yakuza (Aug 24, 2011)

I'd like to see Barristan return alive to Westeros. He can die after.


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## Pineapples (Aug 26, 2011)

I think Barristan will live through this series whilst furher enhancing his legend.

I prefer that the Others don't have a large scale invasion type-approach. I would prefer if they act more like wraiths who ambush lone or few number individuals. Instilling fear (of the unknown terror) instead directly attacking the general populace. They would bring down towns and city's through fear and also the unnatural cold that seems to be their aura.


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## Snickers (Aug 26, 2011)

Pineapples said:


> I think Barristan will live through this series whilst furher enhancing his legend.
> 
> I prefer that the Others don't have a large scale invasion type-approach. I would prefer if they act more like wraiths who ambush lone or few number individuals. Instilling fear (of the unknown terror) instead directly attacking the general populace. They would bring down towns and city's through fear and also the unnatural cold that seems to be their aura.



I'm pretty sure that the wights go where they will.  If they somehow manage to reach South as far as the neck, ambushing or stealth would be troublesome.

The amount of wights continues to increase, by the time they have invaded a significant part of Westeros they will be far too numerous to ambush anything. 

The Others seem to be more scarce, though they'll come with the cold and vice versa. Up till now they seem to be just malevolent and haven't been subtle. Unless GRRM gives us a lot more information about The Others, it's hard to say what exactly they'll do. But it seems to me they are naught but malevolent creatures bent on destruction. All the ambush and guerilla tactics that do occur (revolving about The Others) will be coincidental not planned.

The biggest threat to the general populace are the numbers and potential numbers of the wights , hence I addressed them so.


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## Terra Branford (Aug 26, 2011)

I have a question guys (well, some of my friends are curious too and I promised I'd ask the more experienced readers for help and post it back) and I hope someone could answer it for me.

What are the religions of the series? I remember the Old Gods, the Seven Gods and the Faceless Gods, but I'm not sure about anything else.

Who do the Starks and Northern people worship? The Old Gods, right? Is that a separate religion from the Seven, or just a Southern "change" to the Old Gods? Who do the Baratheons worship exactly?

Any help would be greatly appreciated xD


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## The Imp (Aug 26, 2011)

The Children of the Forest believed in the Old Gods(the weirwood trees). The First Men converted to the Old Gods. Currently the Northerners, Wildlings and some families descended from the First Men(ie. Blackwoods) believe in them. The Seven were brought over from Essos with the Andals. Most people south of the neck believe in the Seven, except maybe parts of Dorne. There is no connection between the Old Gods and the Seven. 

Mel and Stannis believe in Rhollor who is big in Essos. There is the many-faced god who Arya learns of in her FM training. The Ironborn and their Drowned God. The Rhoyne who migrated to Dorne worshipped the River Rhoyne which Tyrion travels on in ADwD. Mirri Maz Duur believed in some Lamb god. The Dothraki probably had their own horse related God. The Slaver Cities believe in some unknown gods probably harpy related. The Valyrians had their own gods. The only thing we know about them is that Aegon the Conqueror named his dragons after them: Balerion and the other 2 I don't remember the names of.

The Baratheons traditionally worship the Seven, Stannis being the exception.


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## Terra Branford (Aug 26, 2011)

The Imp said:


> The Children of the Forest believed in the Old Gods(the weirwood trees). The First Men converted to the Old Gods. Currently the Northerners, Wildlings and some families descended from the First Men(ie. Blackwoods) believe in them. The Seven were brought over from Essos with the Andals. Most people south of the neck believe in the Seven, except maybe parts of Dorne. There is no connection between the Old Gods and the Seven.
> 
> Mel and Stannis believe in Rhollor who is big in Essos. There is the many-faced god who Arya learns of in her FM training. The Ironborn and their Drowned God. The Rhoyne who migrated to Dorne worshipped the River Rhoyne which Tyrion travels on in ADwD. Mirri Maz Duur believed in some Lamb god. The Dothraki probably had their own horse related God. The Slaver Cities believe in some unknown gods probably harpy related. The Valyrians had their own gods. The only thing we know about them is that Aegon the Conqueror named his dragons after them: Balerion and the other 2 I don't remember the names of.
> 
> The Baratheons traditionally worship the Seven, Stannis being the exception.



Thanks so much Imp!  That helped loads! I will post it to my friends as well 

Thanks again! pek

*I would rep you, but I can't right now xD*


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## Nae'blis (Aug 27, 2011)

So just to be sure, GRRM was adding proof to the idea that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal, right?


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## The Imp (Aug 27, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> So just to be sure, GRRM was adding proof to the idea that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal, right?



With what, the name?


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## Nae'blis (Aug 27, 2011)

what are you talking about? With Bran's tree vision. there really isn't  a reason for that particular scene except to say something.


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## The Imp (Aug 27, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> what are you talking about? With Bran's tree vision. there really isn't  a reason for that particular scene except to say something.



You didn't say what GRRM added to support the idea so i assumed you meant the name in your post: Laughing Tree/Weirwood.

Also the vision could be there just to support the idea of looking into the past, or Arya being similar to Lyanna. We already know she was a tomboy and Jojen's story in ASoS was pretty clear in telling us what Lyanna did at Harrenhall.


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2011)

I dedicate this post to Sam's Fat Pink Mast.


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## Blinky (Aug 30, 2011)

I dedicate this post to Drogo's glistening manhood.


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## The Imp (Sep 1, 2011)

I was browsing deviantart and found this.



Man I would have loved to see something like that on the show.


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## FitzChivalry (Sep 1, 2011)

Nice. It looks wallpaper worthy.

How are you all coping with a likely minimum three year break between books?





Fran said:


> I dedicate this post to Sam's Fat Pink Mast.



Classic.


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## Parallax (Sep 2, 2011)

three years is pretty sensible.

The wait between Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords was three years and that was worth it.  If we can get Winds of Winter in that time that would be awesome


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## The Imp (Sep 2, 2011)

The wait was actually 2 years (1998-2000). I have no idea how he accomplished that.


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## Parallax (Sep 3, 2011)

those were salad days back then

when he actually worked and didn't eat and watch football all the time


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## Shrike (Sep 4, 2011)

Hey, look, a thread on NF that I like. I never noticed it because I rarely visit the forums.

So anyway, I had a few things I wanted to check with other people, so just wanted to ask - I don't need to spoiler tag shit at this point right? Since I guess most of you read all of the books. Especially now that the tv series is out, people will be even crazier about this.

Edit: Nevermind, I looked back and saw that I don't need tags. Great.


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## Freija (Sep 4, 2011)

I would cope with the breaks if they were only 3 years, but I'm not sure I'm going to be excited if this book takes 5 years before released.


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## Yakuza (Sep 4, 2011)

He will probably move to the local cemetery before he can finish the books. He is a giant Big Mac health-wise.


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## Shrike (Sep 5, 2011)

The Imp said:


> The wait was actually 2 years (1998-2000). I have no idea how he accomplished that.



He was hyped, he had CoK written before that and it laid out a good setup for the SoS. SoS was probably the most exciting book; it was fast paced and packed with deaths of many characters we followed in the first two book. When you are writing something like that, inspiration just drives you forward.

The latter two books took 5 and 6 years to write since they were a lot harder to write; not because he had no drive or something but because as you progress with the plot it begins to be harder and harder to tie every end together and make the story good and enjoyable still. I can see how the Dance was very hard to write. And Winds and Dream will be even harder, because he will need to conclude the story and make it round, but also still enjoyable.

This is why many works which lasted for a long time (even mangas) have become less enjoyable as the time passed since they lost their initial shine and many writers get lost in their own plots. Let's hope that does not happen to Martin or that he doesn't die before the series is done. The old fuck.


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## The Imp (Sep 5, 2011)

I agree. By the time Clash was finished the outcome of the Wo5K was pretty much determined. Stannis was smashed and a non factor. Renly was dead, and Robb had already made his most fatal mistake. And North of the Wall, the wildlings were about to start their own attack. He had tons of momentum going in and he had to cover the end of the war.

I don't know about difficulty, but I think for that reason he's not going to take as long to write Winds and Dream. Everything's starting to converge again and we won't have 20 different plotlines in the book. We have 3 major convergences going on: in the North with Stannis, in the South the war with Aegon/Dorne vs Lannister/Tyrells vs Euron, and in Meereen with Dany and her suitors.


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## Parallax (Sep 5, 2011)

Yeah it really seems like everything is tying up with a few offbeat characters (Sansa and Arya come to mind) far away from the central conflicts but still in the thick of some serious shenanigans)


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## The Imp (Sep 5, 2011)

Well the Vale might become involved with the Northern storyline soon. And Arya is going to start her aprrenticeship(?) which could take place in Westeros. King's Landing or Oldtown possibly, which puts her back in the thick of things.


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## Parallax (Sep 5, 2011)

Yeah I definitely see that happening

but not really till the end of book 6


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## Nae'blis (Sep 5, 2011)

Littlefinger told Sansa he wants her to take Winterfell, and with it Warden of the North, but can we really expect what he told her to be true?



Yakuza said:


> He will probably move to the local cemetery before he can finish the books. He is a giant Big Mac health-wise.


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## Parallax (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm not entirely sure he's lying to Sansa honestly

we'll wait and see, Littlefinger and Sansa are the wildcards right now and anything can happen when they show up


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## Shrike (Sep 6, 2011)

The Imp said:


> I don't know about difficulty, but I think for that reason he's not going to take as long to write Winds and Dream. Everything's starting to converge again and we won't have 20 different plotlines in the book. We have 3 major convergences going on: in the North with Stannis, in the South the war with Aegon/Dorne vs Lannister/Tyrells vs Euron, and in Meereen with Dany and her suitors.



Not so sure about that. To me, it seems like Martin himself is getting lost with the plot a bit. Martin expanded the plot in the last two books greatly, especially in the Feast with Dorne and Greyjoys. You'd think that when the winter came, most of the characters would already all be in Westeros and that Martin would be getting ready for the slow climax.

But not at all. Daenerys bore the hell out of me in this book. Martin had her stuck in Mereen and mostly doing nothing. Tyrion traveled, and traveled, and was tossed with this and that character around, and even thought his chapters were enjoyable (hey, it's Tyrion), it wasn't as interesting as it was back in the Landing. In the end, he didn't even meet Daenerys (which I expected would happen around the half of the book) and Dany didn't even tame Drogon well enough - who knows how long that will last.

What I am trying to say is that it seems to me that Martin was getting lost with his own story a bit - he said that he had written almost half of the Dance when it was still supposed to be named Feast but then the book was split because it was too big. Six years for the rest of the book is kind of too long.

The North with Stannis and Boltons... I am not sure, but it should be resolved pretty early into Winds, but that's just one plotline which also takes away from the book. But look now - you said Aegon/Dorne, and that plotline never even started. Nymeria is about to get to the Landing, the scheming of Dorne had not yet even begun to evolve. Balon Swann is seemingly dispatched since he went to look for Darkstar, but I wouldn't rule him out just yet. This part of the plot is just growing strong. The King's Landing is going to be fun now with Kevan being killed. I am not sure what will become of the House Lannister, but Cersei is not yet finished with it. Euron is a wild card - his introduction expands the plot by a lot. Martin wouldn't just spend so much time introducing us to the Greyjoys so that he can kill them off fast later. Expect a lot from Victarion before he dies, too. And as I said above, Tyrion and Daenerys didn't even do much in this book. That plotline will also take a lot of time for them to find their way to Westeros, not to mention the roaming dragons.

And that's only about them. Not to mention others - Petyr and Sansa, Davos and Rickon, Arya, the Wall, Sam and Oldtown (something very important is going to happen down there, the prologue of Feast showed that), Cersei, Jaime, Brienne and Catelyn, Varys (who will probably work just to get Aegon to throne), Aegon himself who has JUST started his conquest.

See what I am saying? Too many plot lines, and too little space. Martin was slow with the last two books compared to the CoK and SoS. This might take a while and will be hard, very hard to write.


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## The Imp (Sep 6, 2011)

Martin can't really drag Meereen out any longer. The battle has already started at the end of Dance and all the pieces are there to end it. Tyrion and the sellsword companies are ready to turn their cloaks. Victarion is already there to attack the Qarth navy. Dany is in a position to win the Dothraki to her cause. The battle is going to be over soon, the question becomes how long does the aftermath last and how much time will Dany waste on the Demon Road and Volantis? And now that Tyrion's story has merged with Dany's it won't need 20 chapters to tell.

At the Wall there were 2 basic objectives left: get the wildlings on their side and start the invasion. Martin dragged the first part out in ADWD and with Jon dead (for now) I don't think we'll see much of the Wall until the invasion actually starts. Bran will get some chapters to progress his training but if the last few books have been any indication, he'll only get 3-4. Same with Davos and hopefully Martin doesn't drag out his search for Rickon, which will eventually tie into the Stannis/Bolton convergence.

The Vale is isolated for now but if LF was telling Sansa the truth, they'll converge in the North at some point as well.

Doran's scheming wasn't particularly complicated. Quentyn failed to bring Dany but Aegon (Doran's nephew) has arrived with the Golden Company so the next logical step would be to ally with them. The Balon Swan plot is secondary. It was only important because Doran wanted to keep the peace but if he enters the war with Aegon (which the spoiler chapters indicate) it becomes a non-factor.

Euron is still a big unknown but if Victarion fails and Theon returns to claim his birthright who knows how long Euron will stay in power. Also Sam is doing his training in Oldtown, we know the Faceless Men are active there and Euron is raiding in that general vicinity. This is a big assumption on my part but that ties 3 plotlines together without making it unnecessarily long.

What's left to tell in KL? Basically the trial right and then it's tied into the Aegon story. Not sure what he's going to do with Jaime/Brienne but I think that has to eventually tie in with Cersei if Jaime is the valonquar. 

There are a lot of assumptions on my part and even then there is a lot of story to be told but I definitely think he'll be able to finish it quicker than Feast/Dance. With all the cliffhangers he left in Dance, Winds has pretty much written itself.


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## Shrike (Sep 6, 2011)

I hope you are correct, but you'll understand my worries. I started reading this when I was 15, so that makes it nine years of following a series which shakes my nerves with wait. I waited for Feast for some time, then 6 fucking years for Dance, I was getting pretty bored with the book that isn't showing. Lucky that I got refreshed and read it all a few months before Dance else I would have forgotten too much shit. Finally, I am an amateur writer myself, so I think I understand how hard it is to tie all these things together and make it satisfactory for the writer himself first and foremost.

So yeah, you get what I mean. Not to mention that I nerd raged when I read the last book (called Dance with Dragons!!) and saw that the dragons didn't even come to Westeros. I had hoped for more development, and now I have to wait again. Fucking Martin.

Let's just hope that Winds will show up in two or three years time.

Edit: Now that you mention Jon being 'dead'... what do you guys think about that?


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## The Imp (Sep 6, 2011)

I agree that Dance was pretty weak. The chapters in the North were some of his best stuff though (the exception being Jon for me, started off great but then got repetitive). My favourite character is Tyrion but his chapters weren't up to par this time around. Dany was a waste of time. I still like it more than Feast because of the characters, but I thought Martin wasted too many chapters on the "big 3" because of the fan backlash for not having them in Feast. 

My biggest complaint is definitely the cliffhangers though. Even Feast felt like more of a complete book with a clear beginning, middle and end. Dance just ends before the climax.

Also the general consensus on Jon is that he's dead but will be revived either through warging, Melisandre's magic or a combination of both.


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## Shrike (Sep 6, 2011)

Agreed. 

The North was great...but then Bran's chapters stopped, Jon became a bit boring, and the whole event around the battle just came to an abrupt end with the exception of one Asha's chapter where she finally meets Theon again. Beside that, the whole Dance was just one huge cliffhanger. Not sure yet which book I prefer (Feast or Dance), but that doesn't matter.

My biggest complaint would be the slow pace, I guess. The book is far too long for almost nothing major to happen.

My take on Jon's fate is the same with one more option - that he is Azor Ahai, thus 'reborn' somehow. Still not sure about that one though, but when Melisandre searched for Azor Ahai (her thinking that is Stannis), she saw only snow (Jon Snow). At the time I thought she saw snow because Stannis' army was engulfed by the snow, but I ain't so sure now. After all, Jon had a dream where he is fighting Others with a flaming sword in his hands, if I remember correctly. His wound was also steaming when Bowen stabbed him (maybe from the cold, maybe not). Thought I am still leaning toward Dany being AA. Dunno.


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## Parallax (Sep 6, 2011)

Agreed with Mereen being a snore

it definitely improved when it went to Selmy POV

but the North stuff was the best honestly if there's something that should be going at this point it's that and Dorne's coupe


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## Shrike (Sep 6, 2011)

Yeah, Selmy made me actually want to read MOAR, but fucking Daenerys, boring the shit out of me with her Daario.

Anyway, I remembered something else I wanted to ask - does anyone believe that The Great Other will actually appear to lead his army south? Leaderless, the Others just seem like a bunch of ice wraiths who raise dead people as ghouls to serve them. I am of the thinking that the Great Other could bring more meaning to the whole story.


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## FitzChivalry (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm not bothering to cover up my Dance spoilers. Don't read my post if you haven't read the latest book.

This series needs to be finished in 3+ books or _Winds of Winter_ and _A Dream Of Spring_ will each have to be incredibly bulked up in a way that dwarfs _A Storm of Swords._ There are too many story lines for anything else to be acceptable.

---

- *Dany *needs to, and apparently will in the next book, get the fuck out of *Meereen*.  It was hard to read her chapters sometimes. I know she felt she had an obligation to tend to those people's needs, but I found it hard to care that much about her chapters. The last chapter in Dance finally made it seem as if she was finally getting the fuck out, which I'm sure many are relieved to hear.

-*Barristan *is a character I think will live to see the end of the story. People think his ripe old age makes him more expendable, but I disagree. I think the story needs an old guy like him to compare the times and generations, past and present. I liked his chapters.





Nae'blis said:


> Littlefinger told Sansa he wants her to take Winterfell, and with it Warden of the North, but can we really expect what he told her to be true?


- Things hardly ever go as planned in for characters, even for master plotters like Varys and Littlefinger. Littlefinger had big, big plans for Sansa, but that's seen a several big hitches: Boltons seizing Winterfell, Manderly sending Davos for Rickon, Stannis being at Winterfell.

The two most interesting and exciting snags in Littlefinger's plans for Sansa is that thanks to Robb's legitimization letter, Jon's claim to Winterfell supersedes all other trueborn Stark child's. There's been no mention of it since _Storm_ or the man to whom it was sent, Howland Reed, but I expect it to come back in a big way. 

The second big snag is Sansa's husband, Tyrion, is still alive, and he's going back to Westeros sooner rather than later, with his eye on Casterly Rock. It's possible that, given all the complications with Winterfell and the north, Littlefinger could find that reuniting *Sansa *with Tyrion and making her a *Lady of the Rock* a more attractive option. Now _that's _a fun theory.

Whatever may happen, I (_obviously_) think Jon's going to be the Stark that sits at Winterfell. I think he'll survive the stab wounds and that he's off the Watch, probably via some honorable discharge (which I've mentioned a time or two in this thread). He has to deal with the Bastard of Bolton. He'll rally and unite the north and turn them towards The Others. If he's Azor Ahai reborn, then he's fated to fight the walking dead. Like Starks in times past, he'll lend aid to the Watch to oppose the real threat. And I hope the Others have some sort of commander leading them. It would be cool. I don't think he has any interest in being King in the North. I think Val will be Lady of Winterfell. She was his love interest in Dance. It would be funny too, the irony; this is what Stannis wanted, though the circumstances are radically different.

Dany will probably help Jon and his cause. It's no accident that they've been on opposite sides of the world from one another the whole time. Blahblah, ice and fire, you've heard it all. I won't repeat it. They'll meet some day. But they won't hook up. Eww.

Stannis is probably done. He's clearly not Azor Ahai reborn. Melisandre should come to that realization soon enough. Her fires see snow. 

- I struggle just a little to see Arya's role in the story. I'm curious as to her reentry into Westeros and what she does from here on. She's clearly the "assassin." Is she going to start assassinating those who have done harm to House Stark? Will she play a key role in helping raise House Stark to prominence? I think maybe so.


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## masamune1 (Sep 6, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> I struggle just a little to see Arya's role in the story. I'm curious as to her reentry into Westeros and what she does from here on. She's clearly the "assassin." Is she going to start assassinating those who have done harm to House Stark? Will she play a key role in helping raise House Stark to prominence? I think maybe so.



She'll either kill, be killed by, or kill and be killed by someone close to her; Bran, Sansa, Jon or whoever, or maybe her mother. I think she's being set up for some sort of tragic irony thing. She might kill some other important character only to run into a family member, who may or may not recognise her and may or may not kill her. 

Basically, I think she's being made into a not-quite Deus / Diabolus Ex Machina- she'll randomly pop up at some point in the story to deal out death, because of who the Faceless Men want her to kill, not because of her own will. She may or may not get some character development after that, but I don't think her destiny lies with her own ambitions.


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## Parallax (Sep 7, 2011)

It's strange I don't see Stannis being done just yet.

Honestly the fact that he (probably) has Theon and Asha plus his rallying at Winterfell is not resolved and it's going to be really important.

I don't see Jon taking over as heir to Winterfell but he's obviously got a lot left.  Honestly I'm way more interested in the North right now, with Dany dicking around and the Lannisters in pieces.  Not to mention Dorne and Aegon.

It really could be finished in 2 books especially if he converges the characters and starts cleaning house. 

At this point I see either Stannis or Aegon getting the throne

I'm also interested in what the Ironborn have planned too


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## Parallax (Sep 7, 2011)

Oh and can't forget Davos' awesome journey to rescue Rickon

I really do think Bran is pretty much done with the story as he's pretty much ascended beyond all the other characters.


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## Han Solo (Sep 7, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> The two most interesting and exciting snags in Littlefinger's plans for Sansa is that thanks to Robb's legitimization letter, Jon's claim to Winterfell supersedes all other trueborn Stark child's. There's been no mention of it since _Storm_ or the man to whom it was sent, Howland Reed, but I expect it to come back in a big way.



Is that actually true though? Legitimised bastards still come after trueborn children in the line of sucession, and even if it was Robb's will for Jon to suceeded him how seriously will the lords take that? Robb ultimately made that letter because he falsely believed that Bran and Rickon were dead and that he couldn't allow any form of Lannister influence on the North through Sansa.

I'm sure the lords would rather take Jon over Sansa if she's still married to Tyrion, but if Bran, Rickon or Ayra return I doubt they would. The Starks have ruled for thousands of years and Jon isn't a Stark. Even Ayra said that Jon didn't count as a Stark so I can't imagine anyone else thinks differently. Manderly is definitely one person who I couldn't imagine bowing to Jon once he has Rickon.


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## Cyphon (Sep 7, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> -*Barristan *is a character I think will live to see the end of the story. People think his ripe old age makes him more expendable, but I disagree. I think the story needs an old guy like him to compare the times and generations, past and present. I liked his chapters.



I like this train of thought. Barristan is the key to what could be some awesome flashbacks and depth to badass moments in Westeros history.



Han Solo said:


> I'm sure the lords would rather take Jon over Sansa if she's still married to Tyrion, but if Bran, Rickon or Ayra return I doubt they would. The Starks have ruled for thousands of years and Jon isn't a Stark. Even Ayra said that Jon didn't count as a Stark so I can't imagine anyone else thinks differently. Manderly is definitely one person who I couldn't imagine bowing to Jon once he has Rickon.



2 things:

1. When legitimized he _does_ become a Stark though right? Like officially. Of course you are correct to question the level of acceptance he will get from others but it isn't as if he is another Bastard of Bolton. People actually like Jon, including Bran and Arya. Given Bran and Arya's motivations I don't think they would even want the spot and would support Jon. Sansa is tainted by first Tyrion and now LF. Nobody in the North will want LF's hand in things. Rickon is simply too young and still will be when the story ends. That said, Jon (depending on what actually happens with his "death") may be in a similar position to Bran and Arya. If he turns out to be just a wolf.........So Rickon is who I think may end up getting the seat while having a regent in place or whatever the word is. 

2. If L+R is revealed......Well, you get the idea. Could throw a wrench into everyone's thought process in the north.


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## Dash (Sep 7, 2011)

Dance with Dragons


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Crazy witch lady: beware the perfumed seneschal 

*Dany marries Hizdahr 1 month later* 

-_-

Tough break for Quentyn though.


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## Parallax (Sep 7, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> Is that actually true though? Legitimised bastards still come after trueborn children in the line of sucession, and even if it was Robb's will for Jon to suceeded him how seriously will the lords take that? Robb ultimately made that letter because he falsely believed that Bran and Rickon were dead and that he couldn't allow any form of Lannister influence on the North through Sansa.
> 
> I'm sure the lords would rather take Jon over Sansa if she's still married to Tyrion, but if Bran, Rickon or Ayra return I doubt they would. The Starks have ruled for thousands of years and Jon isn't a Stark. Even Ayra said that Jon didn't count as a Stark so I can't imagine anyone else thinks differently. Manderly is definitely one person who I couldn't imagine bowing to Jon once he has Rickon.



False information or not he still made it out in his will

and remember Kings have the right to legitimize bastards as Tommen did to Ramsay.

Robb was King of the North when he made the will so it's very much a legitimate decree


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## Han Solo (Sep 7, 2011)

Parallax said:


> False information or not he still made it out in his will
> 
> and remember Kings have the right to legitimize bastards as Tommen did to Ramsay.
> 
> Robb was King of the North when he made the will so it's very much a legitimate decree



I'm not saying the will itself is not legitimate but that some lords may take issue with it and that there could easily be a dispute if another Stark child turns up. After all Robert's will meant shit because Ned couldn't back it up with force and Manderly could easily do the same with Rickon.

If Jon and Rickon through proxy both declare for lordship at the same time with some lords backing Jon and some other backing Manderly it could get really messy, really fast.


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## The Imp (Sep 7, 2011)

Well you have to take into account Jon's decision. When Stannis offered him Winterfell, he was essentially the last Stark alive. He was the only person who could carry on the Stark line, yet he still declined the offer. Do you really think he'll claim Winterfell if he knew Bran and Rickon were alive and that he was legitimized by Robb?

As for the final king sitting on the iron throne, I'm still backing Robert's bastards. Just look at Varys' reasoning for supporting Aegon. He was raised as a commoner and realizes that kingship is his duty to the people. The same can be said for Robert's bastards (minus Edric Storm) and Gendry has an even better case as he was a part of the BWB, outlaws that were fighting for the people. 

Also anybody else dislike Areo Hotah? He's honestly the worst POV in the series. Even if you dislike other POV characters, at least they contribute something to the chapters. Hotah does nothing, he's just there like a fly on the wall.


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## Han Solo (Sep 7, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Well you have to take into account Jon's decision. When Stannis offered him Winterfell, he was essentially the last Stark alive. He was the only person who could carry on the Stark line, yet he still declined the offer. Do you really think he'll claim Winterfell if he knew Bran and Rickon were alive and that he was legitimized by Robb?



Yeah I agree with this so I'm not sure anything of what I said previously is going to come up, but rather that I was theorizing what would happen if Jon does want to claim Winterfell and that it's going to be anything but smooth sailing.


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## FitzChivalry (Sep 7, 2011)

Again, spoiler-ific post. Beware.

I understand the opposition to the theory, or rather the questions that could debunk it. 

Circumstances are changed. One, don't dismiss the difference in who's asking. Jon loved Robb. Despite his bastardy and Robb's trueborn birth, those two really grew up like brothers. Stannis is Stannis. Who is the heck is he to Jon? Some harsh southern man with no knowledge of the north trying to lay claim to a throne. Yes, Jon declined after Stannis offered him a very sweet deal, and Jon might have accepted his offer even then, despite his vows, if he weren't elected to Lord Commander soon after.

Robb is different. Don't you think that _Robb_ leaving the Stark name and Winterfell (and the north) to Jon would make more of a difference to Jon who knows nothing about the north practically demanding he do it? I just don't see Jon refusing Robb's dying wish, especially when considering Jon's chapters in _Dance_, where he was wrestling with his own identity. Was he a Stark or a member of the Watch? Should he sever all of his family ties and honor his vows? And you know what, he made his decision in the last chapter, was moving towards that decision the whole way. Despite being Lord Commander, he was going to risk breaking his vows for Winterfell and the Starks. He chose to be a Stark. One could say,_ well, he could have just been proactively defending the Watch._ But that's wrong and not his reasons.

He was resolved to ride on Ramsay, and should he survive those wounds (likely), will _still _have to deal with him, unless something unexpected happens. Maybe Stannis beats him somehow (unlikely) or the Vale gets up off of their asses and march on the Boltons in Winterfell (improbable). Jon _wants _to confront Ramsay to confront Ramsay at Winterfell. Now if that parchment Robb wrote and had every significant northern lord sign off on reaches Jon as he's just now deciding where he allegiance truly lies, it's easy for me to imagine what he would decide (in broad strokes).

Obviously I believe in it to the point of changing my name to Jon Stark.


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## The Imp (Sep 7, 2011)

Yes but Robb made Jon his heir assuming the fact that Bran and Rickon were dead and that he might not have any kids before he dies. Had Jon gotten Robb's letter in Storm or Dance, it's likely he would have taken Winterfell, but he didn't. And Rickon is about to surface soon enough. Jon may have had a closer relationship to Robb and Arya but he loved his other brothers and sisters just as much, and he's not nearly power hungry enough to want to steal Rickon and Bran's birthright. Even then what Jon really craves is an identity, the Stark name. He values that more than the castle. Jon isn't going to start a civil war against his brothers for it.


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## Parallax (Sep 7, 2011)

I don't see Jon ever taking Winterfell

ever

it seems really out of place


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## FitzChivalry (Sep 7, 2011)

Parallax said:


> I don't see Jon ever taking Winterfell
> 
> ever
> 
> it seems really out of place


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## Shrike (Sep 10, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Also anybody else dislike Areo Hotah? He's honestly the worst POV in the series. Even if you dislike other POV characters, at least they contribute something to the chapters. Hotah does nothing, he's just there like a fly on the wall.



I love that guy. He himself is not important character, yeah, but his POV shows much of Prince Doran and also the life of a loyal guard. I found many other chapters far more boring then Areo's. Arya selling oysters or whatever bored the fuck out of me. Who the fuck cares about some whores of Braavos or the like. Sam Tarly also killed me in Feast.

The worst POV would be Damphair for me.

But anyway, too many useless information in both Feast and Dance is what I say. Martin overkilled it. I didn't even care for several of Tyrion's chapters even though it was goddamn Tyrion whom I adore reading about.

So let's see: 

Jon bored me so-so (the start of Dance was great, but then until the end it became monotonous and boring)
Tyrion bored me (no real big development for the whole book)
Daenerys bored me (there were maybe two or three chapters of her that really got me excited; that should say much of how interesting it was)

So yeah. Three of the main characters having boring chapters is not something I would like to happen in the next book...


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## Felix (Sep 10, 2011)

I don't see Jon taking Winterfell either


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## The Imp (Sep 10, 2011)

His chapters are okay because of Doran, but why not just give his chapters to Arianne? She's in most of Hotah's chapters already and at least she has some personality. Hotah's just another token badass who's sole purpose is to just stand there. You could argue that that's his job, but then why make him a POV at all.


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## Shrike (Sep 10, 2011)

The Imp said:


> His chapters are okay because of Doran, but why not just give his chapters to Arianne? She's in most of Hotah's chapters already and at least she has some personality. Hotah's just another token badass who's sole purpose is to just stand there. You could argue that that's his job, but then why make him a POV at all.



Because we have both Arianne and Hotah in Feast. Mixing them all into Arianne would have been much worse then what Martin had actually done. Arianne's plot was revealed only later, when we already had Areo's and Arys'. Having her POV from the start would tell us much of what Martin wanted to be left for later, and Prince Doran is much better presented through Areo's eyes then through Arianne's. Finally, we couldn't have Doran's own chapters because we would have found out about his plot to bring fire and blood onto Westeros immediately.



Felix said:


> I don't see Jon taking Winterfell either



Yeah forgot to mention that I am on this bandwagon too.


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## The Imp (Sep 10, 2011)

What plot? Making Myrcella queen? We already knew that before her first chapter because of her talk with Arys. We could have easily seen that from her POV and nothing would have been lost. 

Arianne is also in most of Hotah's chapters with Doran, the exception being his first one when they travel to Sunspear. That hardly warrants a new POV character. And while Hotah isn't as biased as Arianne, everything we know about Doran is through his actions and words. That isn't going to change if we got it through Arianne's chapters and she even provides insight on him on occassion.


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## Parallax (Sep 10, 2011)

I like Hotah because he gives us a pretty impartial look at the behind the scenes look at House Martell


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## Parallax (Sep 10, 2011)

Ok so I finally finished A Dance with Dragons, thoughts below


*Spoiler*: __ 



Man fuck Dany what a terrible character she became.  I hope she dies and Barristan takes over because his POV was world's better.  Blood of the Dragon my ass

Go Stannis

Jon had a great start to his chapters but the middle was so average but it did pick up at the end

Arya's chapters were the best despite being so short

it was nice seeing Jaime again though his chapter really should have been in AFFC

Tyrion's chapters were dumb and sucked nothing happened other than lol imma be a slave but still outsmart all of you

I liked Griff's chapters, those were interesting

Victarion chapters were fun I hope it pays off next book

Anything and everything involving the north fucking owned.  Easily the best thing about the book without a doubt, seriously Theon was redeemed as a character in my eyes




Overall I liked it quite a great deal and it was definitely better than the 4th book

see ya all in a couple of years


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## The Imp (Sep 10, 2011)

You thought that chapter should have been in Feast? Why? His story arc in Feast wrapped up beautifully with him burning Cersei's letter as the South sees its first snowfall. Personally I would have pushed his chapter in Dance to Winds. And ended Brienne's chapter in Feast with her going after Jaime rather than the hanging. 

Yeah I enjoyed Victarion's chapters, particularly after Moqorro arrives. His offering to Rhollor and the Drowned God had me laughing hard. 

Also Theon isn't redeemed in my eyes, at least not yet. He took his first few steps by remembering his name and rescuing Jeyne but he's got a long way to go imo.


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## Parallax (Sep 10, 2011)

I don't mean as a person

as a character

since he was unbearable and annoying but now he's really compelling and interesting

I think there's something fishy going on about Brienne's sudden entrance but we'll see.  Watch out Jaime : (


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## Cyphon (Sep 10, 2011)

The north chapters were some of the best things in the entire series, let alone in ADWD.


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## Parallax (Sep 10, 2011)

Oh yeah the North totally fucking owned

everything about it was great, I want more dammit.

Wyman Manderly was a fucking G who would have thunk it


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## Cyphon (Sep 10, 2011)

Parallax said:


> Oh yeah the North totally fucking owned
> 
> everything about it was great, I want more dammit.
> 
> Wyman Manderly was a fucking G who would have thunk it



Eloquently and truthfully spoken.

+rep


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## Shrike (Sep 11, 2011)

When you guys already mention Jaime, what's your guys take on his future? I doubt Martin would just kill him off after having him train with Payne like that. Also, I am of thinking that he will kill Cersei.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 11, 2011)

Jaime will be Lord Commander of Aegon's Kingsgaurd. By the end he'll be remembered as fondly as Aemon the Dragonknight.


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## FitzChivalry (Sep 11, 2011)

Jaime Lannister, Kingslayer and kinslayer. He will kill Cersei. Of that I'm reasonably certain.


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## Parallax (Sep 11, 2011)

Spike_Shrike said:


> When you guys already mention Jaime, what's your guys take on his future? I doubt Martin would just kill him off after having him train with Payne like that. Also, I am of thinking that he will kill Cersei.



I'm worried about him, I do hope he makes it out.

If he does get killed I see him getting killed by one of the Targaryens seeing as how he bumped of papa/grandpa Aerys

which looking at the entire series he really did do the right thing.  Everyone pretty much admitted that Aerys went batshit crazy and was too unstable and eager to kill off people but HE WAS KING so nobody could do anything.  I actually feel really bad for Jaime seeing as how everyone goes "oh man that Aerys was one fucked up bastard killing everyone, but that Kingslayer was worse cause you know he killed our crazy bloodthirsty king"


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## FitzChivalry (Sep 11, 2011)

Right thing? Likely. B-b-b-but he broke his vow.


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## The Imp (Sep 11, 2011)

Jaime put it best when he said "I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act."


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## Shrike (Sep 11, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Jaime will be Lord Commander of Aegon's Kingsgaurd. By the end he'll be remembered as fondly as Aemon the Dragonknight.



That would be something, but I doubt it. Jaime may be my personal favorite, but I doubt he will bow down to the Targaryens. I also wonder what will Cately do now that she has him. She definitely won't kill him, but what? Ask him for a vow? She already did that.


----------



## krome (Sep 11, 2011)

Spike_Shrike said:


> When you guys already mention Jaime, what's your guys take on his future? I doubt Martin would just kill him off after having him train with Payne like that. Also, I am of thinking that he will kill Cersei.



Haven't finished the fifth book just yet, so I'm not sure if it's happened already, but what I'd like is for Jaime to run into Lady Stoneheart. I'd be interested to see how that interaction would go after everything that has happened. It may just be an ending for him.

Otherwise, it'll have something to do with Cersei, I'm sure.


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 11, 2011)

Jaime considered having Aegon on the Iron Throne after he killed Aerys. He doesn't hate Targaryens, just that batshit insane Aerys. But I still see him supporting Tommen/Myrcella before anyone else.

Lady Bitch turned a bunch of rather honourable guys into rather dubious characters. Thoros isn't entirely pleased with her behaviour, and if he leaves her I imagine others would as well. Someone is going to save Jaime, or he'll escape. Anyway I see her going to the Dreadfort after the Jaime thing.


----------



## martryn (Sep 12, 2011)

Was curious and took a few minutes, but I scaled Westeros and put it side by side to a map of America just so I could get an idea of how large it was.



I was surprised.  Meh, thought I'd share.


----------



## masamune1 (Sep 12, 2011)

Its about the size of South America, I remember reading. So that would be roughly right.


----------



## Shrike (Sep 12, 2011)

I thought it was much smaller. Huh.


----------



## Coteaz (Sep 14, 2011)

martryn said:


> Was curious and took a few minutes, but I scaled Westeros and put it side by side to a map of America just so I could get an idea of how large it was.
> 
> 
> 
> I was surprised.  Meh, thought I'd share.


For a place that is supposedly huge, people seem to get places fairly quickly. Book time I guess.


----------



## martryn (Sep 15, 2011)

How long do you think it would take to travel from the wall to Sunspear, both on foot and by horse?  

I imagine it should take at least 4 months on foot of pretty heavy travel.  No one in the books have gone that far yet though, right?  Not by foot, at least. 

Also, it was only recently that I really looked at it and saw where the Free Cities were in relation to Westeros.  Didn't realize that Pentos and Braavos were as close as they were.  For some reason, while reading the first book years ago, I was under the impression that all that stuff was north, somewhere, but obviously that doesn't make sense.  Related question: how far north do you think the land of always winter goes? 

While looking at this stuff I also started looking into the backstory of the settlement of Westeros.  The hell caused the land bridge between Dorne and what are now the Disputed Lands to be destroyed?  Children of the Forest magic, right?  Well, what the hell caused the Doom of Valyria and why is it not specified.  Shit happened only 400 years ago.  You'd think there'd be people talking about it and shit.  I hope it's explained somewhere, as that's driving me insane not knowing.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Sep 15, 2011)

There is a popular theory that the FM caused the Doom of Valyria.


----------



## Jesus (Sep 15, 2011)

The Faceless Men? Well, wasn't the first one a slave escaped from the mines of old Valyria?

I wouldn't be surprised if they had some kind of hidden agenda beyond taking killing contracts. I can't help but wonder what the one at Oldtown is up to.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 15, 2011)

martryn said:


> Was curious and took a few minutes, but I scaled Westeros and put it side by side to a map of America just so I could get an idea of how large it was.
> 
> 
> 
> I was surprised.  Meh, thought I'd share.



Awesome image! Where did you find that highly-detailed map of Westeros, might I ask?

Also, I have noticed that the series has now gone through five of its intended seven books, and we, the audience are no closer to learning the true identities of Jon Snow's parents (presuming that Ned was not his father) than we were at the beginning of the first book. Therefore, I am absolutely certain that the identity of his mother (and his father, if Ned is not his father) shall be a major revelation that shall be very important to the overall plot of the series. Does anyone else here agree with that belief?


----------



## The Imp (Sep 15, 2011)

It wasn't always supposed to be 7. It started off as a trilogy and just kept getting bigger. We have no idea how or when he wanted to reveal it. Who knows maybe it'll be in book 8 or 9.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 15, 2011)

The Imp said:


> It wasn't always supposed to be 7. It started off as a trilogy and just kept getting bigger. We have no idea how or when he wanted to reveal it. Who knows maybe it'll be in book 8 or 9.



Yes, I recall that now, and that _"A Dance with Dragons"_ was originally to be the second title when Martin still envisioned it as a trilogy. Other series have experienced this phenomenon, as well: for example, the _Inheritance Cycle_ was originally intended to be a trilogy, but grew to four books because the third book had become so large; similarly, _The Wheel of Time_ was also originally intended to be a trilogy, but continued to grow in duration as its author added greater depth and development to the story, and then it was intended to end with twelve books, but was expanded to fourteen books when the final volume grew too large in size. Therefore, the same phenomenon occurring with _A Song of Ice and Fire_ is not at all unusual.


----------



## martryn (Sep 15, 2011)

> Awesome image! Where did you find that highly-detailed map of Westeros, might I ask?



Song of Ice and Fire wiki.  I thought it was awesome as well.





> Also, I have noticed that the series has now gone through five of its intended seven books, and we, the audience are no closer to learning the true identities of Jon Snow's parents (presuming that Ned was not his father) than we were at the beginning of the first book.



Meh, conversation with Davos seems more legit than ever now.  Maybe Ned is the father.  I'm not as convinced that he's a Targaryen anymore.  Why wouldn't he have the characteristic hair?  Seems like all Targaryens have the silver hair.  



> The Wheel of Time was also originally intended to be a trilogy, but continued to grow in duration as its author added greater depth and development to the story, and then it was intended to end with twelve books, but was expanded to fourteen books when the final volume grew too large in size. Therefore, the same phenomenon occurring with A Song of Ice and Fire is not at all unusual.



Also, similarly, Martin will likely die before completing his fucking series just like Jordan.  Fucker is likely to keel over any day now.  We need younger authors, like Patrick Rothfuss, not these old mother fuckers who are fat and sweat Crisco.  I'm hoping he keeps the series down to 7 books so it's more likely he'll finish it.  If it's 10 books the bastard would have to live to be 80.


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## masamune1 (Sep 15, 2011)

martryn said:


> Meh, conversation with Davos seems more legit than ever now.  Maybe Ned is the father.  I'm not as convinced that he's a Targaryen anymore.  Why wouldn't he have the characteristic hair?  Seems like all Targaryens have the silver hair.



Stark blood must trump Targaryen blood. Almost one more example of them being the antithesis of the Lannisters.



> Also, similarly, Martin will likely die before completing his fucking series just like Jordan.  Fucker is likely to keel over any day now.  We need younger authors, like Patrick Rothfuss, not these old mother fuckers who are fat and sweat Crisco.  I'm hoping he keeps the series down to 7 books so it's more likely he'll finish it.  If it's 10 books the bastard would have to live to be 80.



I think you mean we need writers who finish their books on time. No point in saying we need younger writers- that just sounds like they can take all the time in the world since you don't expect them to have a heart attack any time soon.

Besides Rothfuss has only wrote two books, and from what I gather a lot of fans have started to think he's not as good as they once thought.


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## Parallax (Sep 16, 2011)

The reason for Targaryen hair is that a majority of them crossbreeded.  But there are exceptions

also the Starks can be like the Baratheons where "the seed is strong"


----------



## Felix (Sep 16, 2011)

There were a lot of Targaryens with black hair
Reminds of the Dunk and Egg tales, that Targaryen which was the hand of the king, forgot his name, had black hair since he had a non Targaryen mother/father


----------



## Jesus (Sep 16, 2011)

martryn said:


> Meh, conversation with Davos seems more legit than ever now.  Maybe Ned is the father.  I'm not as convinced that he's a Targaryen anymore.  Why wouldn't he have the characteristic hair?  Seems like all Targaryens have the silver hair.



Inbreeding.


----------



## Tion (Sep 16, 2011)

Jon Snow. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 16, 2011)

Felix said:


> There were a lot of Targaryens with black hair
> Reminds of the Dunk and Egg tales, that Targaryen which was the hand of the king, forgot his name, had black hair since he had a non Targaryen mother/father



I believe that his name was Baelor Targaryen, better known as Baelor Breakspear.


----------



## martryn (Sep 16, 2011)

> Besides Rothfuss has only wrote two books, and from what I gather a lot of fans have started to think he's not as good as they once thought.



Meh, the second book was slower than the first, but it was still awesome.  I plan on buying everything he writes for a very long time.  Like the M Night Shaymalan effect.  It took until Lady in the Water before I realized he was a 1 hit wonder. 



> The reason for Targaryen hair is that a majority of them crossbreeded. But there are exceptions
> 
> also the Starks can be like the Baratheons where "the seed is strong"





> There were a lot of Targaryens with black hair
> Reminds of the Dunk and Egg tales, that Targaryen which was the hand of the king, forgot his name, had black hair since he had a non Targaryen mother/father



I'm not ruling it out.  I'm just saying that I'm not as strong of a believer anymore.  Targaryens are becoming like sharingans in Naruto.  Seems like everyone is an Uchi... Targaryen now.


----------



## Dionysus (Sep 16, 2011)

I think it's more likely Aegon is a fake than Jon is a Stark bastard.


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 16, 2011)

The Bloody Nine said:


> There is a popular theory that the FM caused the Doom of Valyria.


Never heard that one before. Didn't it split the land and create an island chain? It's hard to imagine the faceless men doing all that with mummers tricks.


----------



## masamune1 (Sep 16, 2011)

martryn said:


> Meh, the second book was slower than the first, but it was still awesome.  I plan on buying everything he writes for a very long time.  Like the M Night Shaymalan effect.  It took until Lady in the Water before I realized he was a 1 hit wonder.



Not just the second book; I know that a few people on this site have said that they re-read the first one and found that less-than-impressive than they once thought too- more style, less substance. 

I haven't read him, that all said, but from all I've read, I'm not getting the impression he's the Next Big Thing. 

But what can I expect from a Joss Whedon fanatic.


----------



## martryn (Sep 16, 2011)

> Not just the second book; I know that a few people on this site have said that they re-read the first one and found that less-than-impressive than they once thought too- more style, less substance.



I reread the first book as well earlier this year.  I thought there was a bunch of style in it, and tons of substance.  Even having just read it two years prior every chapter kept me thoroughly entertained, and I was actually looking forward to what I knew was coming next.  Only the ending bogged down a little, but that was only because I was looking forward to the second book that I had sitting a few feet away.  

In summary, I'd highly recommend him.  He might not be highly polished yet, but he's young and has a lot of potential.  I'm thinking he's going places, and hope he has a prolific career and he continues to improve.  And I'm looking forward to following his career.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 17, 2011)

martryn said:


> Meh, conversation with Davos seems more legit than ever now.  Maybe Ned is the father.  I'm not as convinced that he's a Targaryen anymore.  Why wouldn't he have the characteristic hair?  Seems like all Targaryens have the silver hair.



What conversation with Davos is this, to which you are referring? So much occurs in each book that I cannot recall every scene. And other users have already addressed the subject of silver hair. Also, if Ned really is Jon's father, we, the audience, can presume that Lyanna is not his mother, which then makes me wish to ask: what relevance does Lyanna even have to the story? At this moment, she seems to have existed only to provide tragic backstory and motivation for Ned, which I would find to be rather unfortunate. I hope that she will have greater relevance to the plot than what she has had, thus far, and her actually being Jon's mother would help to give her such relevance.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Sep 17, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> What conversation with Davos is this, to which you are referring? So much occurs in each book that I cannot recall every scene.



First or Second Davos chap in Dance, I think. Dude talks to Davos about how Ned was travelling someplace and ended up getting it on with a boatgirl named Wylla. 

I'm mostly in the he's Ned's camp. "The Direwolf is a sigil of your house, Lord Stark. You're children were meant to have them" and all that. 

---
Question: What scene is this from? 



And then there's the covers for the illustrated edition, which I just have to share:


I can tell where the second one came from,  my favorite chapter!


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 17, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Never heard that one before. Didn't it split the land and create an island chain? It's hard to imagine the faceless men doing all that with mummers tricks.


The Faceless Men are probably capable of far,far more than mummer's tricks.They must be,otherwise how could they stand up to the mighty dragonlords who were "strong in sorcery" when their empire was at its peak.
Regardless,the 'kindly old man' notes that _"He would bring the gift(death) to them as well"_ when Arya asks why the first FM killed the slaves and not the dragonlords.He also mentions that he was the first that "defied them".

So while the Faceless Men probably didn't get together and cast a huge spell to bring doom to Valyria,they most likely hand a hand in it.


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## Dash (Sep 18, 2011)

Finished. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



 So Jon is "dead", Kevan gets owned by Varys and Dany's chapters are still boring. Overall it was a pretty disappointing read, didn't really get that interesting until the ending, but its setting up for the 6th book so meh.


----------



## Han Solo (Sep 18, 2011)

Dash said:


> Finished.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



What did you think of North sequence in general? I thought it was some of Martin's best writing outside of the stupid cliffhaners.


----------



## Yakuza (Sep 18, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Question: What scene is this from?


I don't think its from the book.... Brazilian/Portuguese printings are notoriously known for adding wrong and/or unrelated artwork in fantasy books.


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## Dash (Sep 18, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> What did you think of North sequence in general? I thought it was some of Martin's best writing outside of the stupid cliffhaners.



Agreed, I love how everything is being set up in the North. 

Jon is dead (or in the process of being brought back), that much I think everyone has conceded but where he will go from here is kind of a mystery. What will happen to the wildlings and the Wall now that Jon is out of the way? Stannis is alive too imo, he is too important to have been killed off via letter and there are a few important characters hanging around in his camp (Theon, Asha, etc). Plus I don't think anyone is even certain that Ramsay sent the letter. Are we about to be finally rid of the Boltons? Possibly since Theon is well aware of his plans including the Karstarks betrayal and knows that their Arya is a fake, and the Manderlys/Umbers and potentially other Northern nobles are more than willing to stab the Boltons in the back. The North will definitely rally to Stannis if Davos is able to come out with Rickon and Shaggydog, which would throw a wrench into Littlefinger's plans for Sansa. So much shit could go down in TWoW.

I do wonder what would happen if it were revealed (well if it ever is) that Jon is Robb's handpicked heir to his kingdom, and then of his Targaryen heritage.


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## Parallax (Sep 18, 2011)

I think it's kinda like how in AFFC they said Davos was killed, but clearly that was not the case


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## The Imp (Sep 18, 2011)

Parallax said:


> I think it's kinda like how in AFFC they said Davos was killed, but clearly that was not the case



Yeah, and quite frankly it's starting to get annoying. There's no real suspense anymore, and I'd rather Martin go through with it rather than try to troll the fan base.


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## Parallax (Sep 18, 2011)

it's happened like twice...

I mean it's not something that's he's constantly doing


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## The Imp (Sep 18, 2011)

Not just that particular example but every time he leads us to believe that someone is dead, but they're not. Davos, Aegon (might be fake), Stannis, Jon, Brienne, Bran, Rickon, Sandor. Then there are the smaller cliffhangers. Arya's had a couple of knives come down on her head before. Then you have Tyrion at the Blackwater and Rhoyne and there are probably a few more I'm forgetting. It's not fooling anybody.

How many major character deaths have we had? Ned, Robb, Joffrey, Tywin? There have been some secondary characters like Robert, Oberyn, Balon and Drogo and a ton of tertiary characters killed, but for a series that the fan base often claims can kill any character at any time, a lot of the characters are safe.


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## Dash (Sep 18, 2011)

2 books ago I probably would have thrown the book at the wall, but "deaths" have gotten so old that when Jon got stabbed I felt indifferent. 

Also I don't believe Aegon is a fake.


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## Han Solo (Sep 18, 2011)

I think I've bought into the thoery that Aegon is a Blackfyre descendant.


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## Dash (Sep 18, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> I think I've bought into the thoery that Aegon is a Blackfyre descendant.



Link? First I've heard of this but then again I don't visit the boards very often.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 18, 2011)

^^^
I agree with you guys,but frankly I prefer that GRRM merely pretends to kill characters just for shock value rather than _actually killing_ them just for shock value.


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## Han Solo (Sep 18, 2011)

Dash said:


> Link? First I've heard of this but then again I don't visit the boards very often.



Don't have the link on me, but the theory is that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra, who would be the last of the Blackfyre's of the female line. It explains why Illyrio seemingly cares so much about Aegon, why he would bother to get involved in the affairs of Westeros and why the Golden Company would support Aegon when they refused Viserys who they would never have to prove was a Targaryen. "Contracts writ in blood" and all that.

And then there is that both Varys and Serra are from Lys, so it's possible that Varys did the matchmaking.


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## Dash (Sep 18, 2011)

Hmm...but what about Connington? Wouldn't he notice if something was amiss or is he somehow in on this as well?


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## The Imp (Sep 18, 2011)

The Blackfyres would look exactly like a regular Targ, they're just an offshoot branch of the House. Besides there's enough Valyrian looking kids in Essos anyways, Targ traits aren't as unique.

From what we've seen of Connigton's chapters he believes he's the real Aegon, or he's being purposely ignorant of Aegon's lineage because of his close relationship with Rhaegar.


----------



## Han Solo (Sep 18, 2011)

Dash said:


> Hmm...but what about Connington? Wouldn't he notice if something was amiss or is he somehow in on this as well?



I can't possibly imagine why Connington would be in on it, but he did only see Aegon until later on in his childhood it it can explain the age discrepancy at least.

There are a few other holes I can think of aswell but it's the only theory I've read that gives a legitimate explination for Illyrio's, Varys' and the Golden Company's motives that doesn't sound superficial. The Golden Company not supporting Viserys is the clincher for me at any rate.


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 18, 2011)

No, he really does believe Aegon to be Rhaegar's son. Blackfyre or Targaryen, the plan for him wasn't just a backup.


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## Shrike (Sep 18, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Not just that particular example but every time he leads us to believe that someone is dead, but they're not. Davos, Aegon (might be fake), Stannis, Jon, Brienne, Bran, Rickon, Sandor. Then there are the smaller cliffhangers. Arya's had a couple of knives come down on her head before. Then you have Tyrion at the Blackwater and Rhoyne and there are probably a few more I'm forgetting. It's not fooling anybody.
> 
> How many major character deaths have we had? Ned, Robb, Joffrey, Tywin? There have been some secondary characters like Robert, Oberyn, Balon and Drogo and a ton of tertiary characters killed, but for a series that the fan base often claims can kill any character at any time, a lot of the characters are safe.



We had a lot of deaths. Those you suggest as tertiary and secondary characters were very important as well, in their own time of the series. I tend to agree that 'deaths' are getting old, but I was truly wondering if he had killed Bran and Rickon back then, so his effect was great. AFFC and ADWD were weaker books then the first three, and we already knew Martin's style. We knew that Brienne won't die and that Davos isn't dead, but that was still not annoying for me. Also, Sandor might really be dead, and even though he is among my favorites, I would like him to remain so.

Martin wasn't trying to make us think that the character died when the chapter ends badly for him (for example Tyrion falling into the Sorrows), but for us to wonder what the hell will happen next. You know, worry and shit.

Also, why do you guys believe Aegon to be a fake? I did not find a single hint of it.


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## The Imp (Sep 18, 2011)

Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. They say she will be the slayer of lies and it shows a mummer's dragon.


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## martryn (Sep 19, 2011)

> Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. They say she will be the slayer of lies and it shows a mummer's dragon.



I need to go back and re-read that chapter.  Can't remember that shit from ages ago.


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## Jesus (Sep 19, 2011)

Wether Aegon is a fake or legit, I'm pretty sure he's not gonna last till the end of the series. I would be surprised if he survives the next book.


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## Hunter (Sep 19, 2011)

I personally have no idea if Aegon is legitimately Rhaegar's son. But, it seems he is.
One way to tell if he is a true Targaryen would be to see if fire does not harm him. Anyway. Legit or not; him and the Golden Company already took a few castles upon landing.


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## Shrike (Sep 19, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. They say she will be the slayer of lies and it shows a mummer's dragon.



That's a nice find. Still, Aegon wouldn't last anyway. I kind of disliked him even showing up at all, but we'll see how it plays out.

Forgot to ask you people, what do you see in all those visions of Dany's? The three headed dragon thing is mentioned so many times it irritates me, but I still do wonder what that meant.


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 19, 2011)

Want to see how he takes Storms End. but eh, by the time the next book comes out  I probably won't even be reading fantasy.


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## Serp (Sep 19, 2011)

Hunter said:


> I personally have no idea if Aegon is legitimately Rhaegar's son. But, it seems he is.
> One way to tell if he is a true Targaryen would be to see if fire does not harm him. Anyway. Legit or not; him and the Golden Company already took a few castles upon landing.




Targs aren't immune to fire. :/

But the reason the Golden Company took him rather than Vis might be that Connigton has connections to them. Or that Illyrio never wanted Viserys to rule, but rather Aegon and kept toying with Vis until he died and then get Dany back with Aegon for the pair he wants to rule Westeros.

And a theory of mine, what if Aegon is the Sun's son, rather than Quentyn. If he is legit he is the son of Elia of Dorne a princess of Sunspear. E.g the Son of the Sun.

@Spike the three headed Dragon thing, is Rhaegar is talking about the prophecy about how the PWTP will be a Dragon (Targ) and that the Dragon must have three heads (Three people/riders/whatever) and he named his two children after Aegon I and his sister hoping to name the third Visneya to parallel the beginning.


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## DemonDragonJ (Sep 19, 2011)

Jesus said:


> Wether Aegon is a fake or legit, I'm pretty sure he's not gonna last till the end of the series. I would be surprised if he survives the next book.



I myself am less than hopeful about Aegon's chances of surviving, but I do hope that Martin decides to be merciful to him, as there are so few Targaryens remaining. I would like to see their bloodline survive to the end of the series and again flourish, which is what I hope for the Starks, as well.



Dash said:


> The North will definitely rally to Stannis if Davos is able to come out with Rickon and Shaggydog, which would throw a wrench into Littlefinger's plans for Sansa. So much shit could go down in TWoW.
> 
> I do wonder what would happen if it were revealed (well if it ever is) that Jon is Robb's handpicked heir to his kingdom, and then of his Targaryen heritage.



First, why is Davos seeking Rickon rather than Bran? Bran is older and more experienced, and likely to be a better leader, albeit only a symbolic one, than Rickon would be.

Second, I definitely believe that Martin shall not abandon Littlefinger's plans for Sansa, as it is too intriguing a plot line.

Third, there still is no evidence that Jon is a Targaryen, and even if it was revealed that Robb chose him as his successor, much of Robb's power was destroyed when he was killed, so it is uncertain how many people in the north would rally to the Stark name and banner at the present time. I, of course, would like very much to see House Stark and its supporters rise again, but I must be realistic, as this series leaves little opportunity for optimism and tales of glorious heroism.


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## Fierce (Sep 19, 2011)

Davos is looking for Rickon because Wex, the mute kid, only followed Rickon and Osha, so he only knows where they are. They don't know where Bran is.


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## Serp (Sep 19, 2011)

Yes Wex pointed out a boy and a wolf went to what people assume is Skagos. He doesn't say which out of Bran or Rickon it is, just its a Stark. We the reader know its Rickon.


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## DemonDragonJ (Sep 19, 2011)

Fierce said:


> Davos is looking for Rickon because Wex, the mute kid, only followed Rickon and Osha, so he only knows where they are. They don't know where Bran is.





Serperion Targaryen said:


> Yes Wex pointed out a boy and a wolf went to what people assume is Skagos. He doesn't say which out of Bran or Rickon it is, just its a Stark. We the reader know its Rickon.



Yes, that makes sense; sometimes, it can be difficult to recall minor details such as that. Thank you very much.


----------



## Hunter (Sep 19, 2011)

Serperion Targaryen said:


> Targs aren't immune to fire. :/



Then how did Dany manage to live when she entered those flames? Did the eggs protect her?


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 19, 2011)

> if we disregard all of the other Targaryens who have been harmed/killed by fire.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 19, 2011)

Hunter said:


> Then how did Dany manage to live when she entered those flames? Did the eggs protect her?


Blood magic, I would assume.

Her clothes and hair burned away, didn't they? And she had burns from riding Drogon, no?


----------



## Hunter (Sep 19, 2011)

Doctor Crane said:


> Blood magic, I would assume.
> 
> Her clothes and hair burned away, didn't they? And she had burns from riding Drogon, no?



That clears it up. Thanks.


----------



## Shrike (Sep 20, 2011)

Hunter said:


> Then how did Dany manage to live when she entered those flames? Did the eggs protect her?



Well, if she is Azor Ahai it explains it pretty well. If Jon is AA, then dunno.


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## DemonDragonJ (Sep 20, 2011)

To change the subject briefly, Martin never revealed what fate befell Brown Bennis from _The Sworn Sword;_ I was rather disappointed by that, as Martin very rarely leaves any plotlines unresolved and also seems to have a fondness for making his characters suffer from very unpleasant fates. Plus, Bennis was very rude and mean to Dunk and other characters in that story, so him not receiving comeuppance for doing so was very displeasing to me. What does everyone else say about that?


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## Nae'blis (Sep 20, 2011)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Well, if she is Azor Ahai it explains it pretty well. If Jon is AA, then dunno.


Yeah, Azor Ahai walked out of a volcano during the Doom.


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## Parallax (Sep 20, 2011)

Didn't Martin say that the fire scene was a one time shot for Dany


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## Serp (Sep 20, 2011)

I think anyone who is currently in the middle of a blood magic ritual gains certain resistances to fire at the time. Hence Dany was immune to the flames and might not be AAR.


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## martryn (Sep 20, 2011)

Happy B-Day, you fat fuck.  Another year closer to death.  Fucking write.    

Caught this on NPR while driving to lunch today.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 20, 2011)

Where does it say again that Azor Ahai is immune to fire? Maybe I'm missing something. Jon is a strong contender next to Daenerys for Azor Ahai, but the last time was he near a fire he got burned rather badly.

Some Targaryens were/are, no so much immune as have +90 fire resistance. Daenerys is one of these. As I recall she was injured but suffered rather minor burns from Drogon, and only on her hands.

But I know Jon's death makes it a stronger possibility that he is Azor Ahai.


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## DemonDragonJ (Sep 21, 2011)

martryn said:


> Happy B-Day, you fat fuck.  Another year closer to death.  Fucking write.



I can understand your frustration at the fact that Martin takes a long time to write the books in this series, but he does have a life beyond his books, so I believe that it is impolite or even self-centered for the fans to demand that he work at a pace that suits them, rather than a pace that suits himself.


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## Parallax (Sep 21, 2011)

plus its football season shit ain't gonna get done for awhile man


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## Yakuza (Sep 21, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I can understand your frustration at the fact that Martin takes a long time to write the books in this series, but he does have a life beyond his books, so I believe that it is impolite or even self-centered for the fans to demand that he work at a pace that suits them, rather than a pace that suits himself.



No it isn't. If he fears for fan frustration he should stop making retarded deadlines and suggestions that he finished his books when he clearly is 3 years away from doing _(ADWD).

Less cheeseburgers, more writing please._


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## Jesus (Sep 21, 2011)

You bunch of ungrateful brats. Martin isn't obligated to write shit.


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## Serp (Sep 21, 2011)

What I hear wasn't it was so much fire resistance, but the pain feel of heat was more desirable to Targs to it wasn't a hindrance to them as it would be normal people.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 21, 2011)

I love how Martin is tying in the Dunk and Egg stories with the main plot. I hope the last one includes the details of what happened at Summerhall since they both died there. And a bit more about Bloodraven.


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## SleeplessNarc (Sep 22, 2011)

Once I finish Dharma Bums and Naked Lunch, I'll get back to the series.


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## Nayrael (Sep 23, 2011)

A Dance with Dragon Part 2 (Croatian) Cove Art:

(sure is a creepy temple)


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## Nae'blis (Sep 25, 2011)

I would lol if Varys is a descendant of Aerion Targaryen.


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## Yasha (Sep 25, 2011)

Varys Targaryen  

The thought amuses me but I think it's likely.


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## Parallax (Sep 25, 2011)

wait doesn't he have an established past of being born overseas and being a thief and all that good stuff?


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## The Imp (Sep 25, 2011)

Parallax said:


> wait doesn't he have an established past of being born overseas and being a thief and all that good stuff?



I think the "Varys is a Targaryen" supporters think he is a Blackfyre. We know he originated from Essos and that he was a thief but we don't know much about his origins. And some of the info he's let out might just be lies as well (being cockless). 

I guess it's possible, but I don't support it. There's already enough people running around with hidden identities.


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## Corruption (Sep 28, 2011)

Just started reading ADWD. I love what happened to Cersei at the end of AFFC!


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## Memos (Sep 28, 2011)

Darkness_Surrounding said:


> Just started reading ADWD. I love what happened to Cersei at the end of AFFC!



Just you wait.


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## mary no jutsu (Sep 30, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Yeah, Azor Ahai walked out of a volcano during the Doom.


Do you mean doom of valyria?  I thought Azor Ahai lived thousands of years ago.  Wasn't the doom of valyria 400-300 years ago?  Sorry if this was mentioned in the Dunk & Egg series.  I haven't gotten around to reading it yet


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## masamune1 (Oct 1, 2011)

Parallax said:


> wait doesn't he have an established past of being born overseas and being a thief and all that good stuff?



Yes, but on the other hand, he is Varys.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 1, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I would lol if Varys is a descendant of Aerion Targaryen.



I would definitely like to see such a plot twist happen, as there are so few Targaryens remaining, and they are all in great danger of being killed. I certainly hope that they can re-establish their house and keep their bloodline alive.



Darkness_Surrounding said:


> Just started reading ADWD. I love what happened to Cersei at the end of AFFC!



Seriously? How can you be so cruel? I hated every second of reading Cersei being captured and punished, mostly because Martin was portraying the story from her perspective. When Joffrey died, I was overjoyed, but I felt the exact opposite regarding Cersei, because I believe that it is better to die with dignity than to live in shame. Death would have been far more merciful for Cersei, in my mind.



Memos said:


> Just you wait.



I am disgusted at how you can speak in such a tone. It is true that Cersei committed numerous heinous acts, but that does not in any way justify the fate that she suffers in _A Dance with Dragons,_ in my opinion. By saying such words, you and Darkness Surrounding are being no better than the crowd that taunted Cersei, in my opinion.

Now, on the subject of Cersei, what role might she have as the series continues? The fact that Martin did not kill her suggests to me that he still has plans for her in future books, although what those plans may be, I cannot be certain.


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## Fierce (Oct 1, 2011)

She had to walk naked. What a terrible fate...

Theon got skin flayed and body parts removed.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 1, 2011)

Fierce said:


> She had to walk naked. What a terrible fate...
> 
> Theon got skin flayed and body parts removed.



Theon was not flayed in public, and if he had been, I believe that he would have been much more impressive for enduring such torture, while there was nothing impressive about Cersei's punishment. If Cersei had endured the taunting of the people, I would not be nearly as displeased with what happened to her, but she did not, so I am displeased over her fate. With that being said, why did she eventually succumb to the taunts to the people? If she was ignoring them at first, why was she not able to do so for the entire journey from the Sept to the palace? Was the treatment simply too severe for her?


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## Banhammer (Oct 1, 2011)

What a drama queen. So she had her pride broken over her sins. Bohoo. Catelyn was at the fucking Red Wedding

Bitch didn't the least of what was coming to her


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Seriously? How can you be so cruel? I hated every second of reading Cersei being captured and punished, mostly because Martin was portraying the story from her perspective. When Joffrey died, I was overjoyed, but I felt the exact opposite regarding Cersei, because I believe that it is better to die with dignity than to live in shame. Death would have been far more merciful for Cersei, in my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I am disgusted at how you can speak in such a tone. It is true that Cersei committed numerous heinous acts, but that does not in any way justify the fate that she suffers in _A Dance with Dragons,_ in my opinion. By saying such words, you and Darkness Surrounding are being no better than the crowd that taunted Cersei, in my opinion.



Is this legitimate?I can't tell without the smilies...



DemonDragonJ said:


> Now, on the subject of Cersei, what role might she have as the series continues? The fact that Martin did not kill her suggests to me that he still has plans for her in future books, although what those plans may be, I cannot be certain.


I should think this is obvious.Her role will be to play into Varys' hands and stir some more shit up,and finally die at the hands of the valonquar,whoever that may be.


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## Shrike (Oct 1, 2011)

@DemonDragonJ - Are you for real? If Cersei was skinned alive I would laugh. You said you enjoyed Joffrey's death, but she raised that monster, it was more her fault that he was like that than his own. 

And really. She walked naked in public. Boo fucking hoo.

And lol, did you just say that there was something impressive in Theon enduring the flaying and losing his fingers?


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## Parallax (Oct 1, 2011)

That's not even the worst part of what Theon went through

Ramsay completely forced him to believe that he was someone else completely and destroyed any will and feeling other than fear.

That's way fucking worse than walkin around naked


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 1, 2011)

Yeah,the low point in Cersei's punishment is when she realizes that her tits are sagging and she has stretchmarks.Well shit,if she hadn't thought all her life that she was the Seven's gift to men and that she deserves to rule the world because of it,it might have come as less of a shock.

Personally,I don't see how her suffering is even in the same ballpark as Theon's.That being said,I savored every delicious word of it,and when she made the final stretch to the Red Keep on her hands and knees like a female dog,I was legitimately ecstatic.


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## Han Solo (Oct 1, 2011)

Lol while I have no sympathy for Cersei in the slightest with regards to her walk of shame, I couldn't say I liked seeing it either. I'd like to see her die to be sure but I've never really understood how it's enjoyable to watch someone humiliated and degraded.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 1, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> Lol while I have no sympathy for Cersei in the slightest with regards to her walk of shame, I couldn't say I liked seeing it either. I'd like to see her die to be sure but I've never really understood how it's enjoyable to watch someone humiliated and degraded.


You're clearly a better man than me.

Seriously though,I didn't enjoy watching someone being humiliated and degraded.I enjoyed reading about a fictional character being humiliated and degraded.And a lying,scheming,manipulative and sociopathic cunt of a character at that.It's not the same thing.
Just like Sandor or Littlefinger(or Darth Vader,or Hannibal Lecter) have so many fans despite all of them being pretty horrible human beings.This is fiction,you can afford to 'let yourself go' and enjoy the ride.

And you can't tell me you wouldn't enjoy watching someone like Bin Laden or Hitler(or whatever real life boogeymen you despise) go for a round of torture.


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## Han Solo (Oct 1, 2011)

MrBlonde said:


> You're clearly a better man than me.
> 
> Seriously though,I didn't enjoy watching someone being humiliated and degraded.I enjoyed reading about a fictional character being humiliated and degraded.And a lying,scheming,manipulative and sociopathic cunt of a character at that.It's not the same thing.
> Just like Sandor or Littlefinger(or Darth Vader,or Hannibal Lecter) have so many fans despite all of them being pretty horrible human beings.This is fiction,you can afford to 'let yourself go' and enjoy the ride..



Well yeah Roose Bolton and Victarion Greyjoy were probably my two favourite characters in aDwD for pure entertainment and Littlefinger and Tywin Lannister are amongst my favourite characters in general so it's not like I don't disagree that literature has different rules to real life.

thing is though, all I was thinking during Cersei's walk is that the High Septon is a complete  cunt.



MrBlonde said:


> And you can't tell me you wouldn't enjoy watching someone like Bin Laden or Hitler(or whatever real life boogeymen you despise) go for a round of torture.



Except I can. Torture does nothing, it doesn't help anything or do anything useful other than for you to degrade yourself meaninglsly. A bullet in the head would satisfy me, not much else. Same thing with serial rapists and murderers, etc.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 1, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> What a drama queen. So she had her pride broken over her sins. Bohoo. Catelyn was at the fucking Red Wedding



Yes, that is true, but Catelyn _died,_ so her troubles were over in moments, until she was revived. Cersei is still alive, so her troubles are not yet over.



MrBlonde said:


> Is this legitimate?I can't tell without the smilies...





Spike_Shrike said:


> @DemonDragonJ - Are you for real? If Cersei was skinned alive I would laugh. You said you enjoyed Joffrey's death, but she raised that monster, it was more her fault that he was like that than his own.
> 
> And really. She walked naked in public. Boo fucking hoo.
> 
> And lol, did you just say that there was something impressive in Theon enduring the flaying and losing his fingers?





MrBlonde said:


> Yeah,the low point in Cersei's punishment is when she realizes that her tits are sagging and she has stretchmarks.Well shit,if she hadn't thought all her life that she was the Seven's gift to men and that she deserves to rule the world because of it,it might have come as less of a shock.
> 
> Personally,I don't see how her suffering is even in the same ballpark as Theon's.That being said,I savored every delicious word of it,and when she made the final stretch to the Red Keep on her hands and knees like a female dog,I was legitimately ecstatic.



So, are you all telling me that you consider public humiliation to be a light punishment? Have you ever experienced public humiliation? I have, and while I cannot recall specific details of such experiences (they were many years ago), I can assure you that it is no laughing matter. However, on the other hand, my memories of such experiences have faded with time and I have overcome them, so perhaps with sufficient time, Cersei would overcome her humiliation, although, judging from the overall tone of this series, I am not certain that Cersei shall live to overcome her humiliation.



Han Solo said:


> Lol while I have no sympathy for Cersei in the slightest with regards to her walk of shame, I couldn't say I liked seeing it either. I'd like to see her die to be sure but I've never really understood how it's enjoyable to watch someone humiliated and degraded.



Yes, I am glad to see that at least one user here is not reveling in Cersei's fate. Of course, for those users here who did enjoy, it, I shall respect your opinions and ask that you respect mine, and I shall not mention this subject again unless I deem it to be absolutely necessary.

Now, to change the subject, again, I know that Littlefinger plans to marry Sansa to Harrold Hardyng, but might Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, however brief and involuntary it was, be mentioned and act as an obstacle to Littlefinger's plans? I do not believe so, as Tyrion is literally half a world away, presumed to be dead, and does not seem to care for his brief arranged marriage, Sansa is also presumed dead, and I am certain that Littlefinger is sufficiently clever to work around that particular detail, if it is ever mentioned again. What does everyone else say about that?


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## Fierce (Oct 1, 2011)

1. I'm not "reveling" in Cersei's humiliation. I just don't think it was so horrific compared to what other PoV characters in the series have gone through.

2. Tyrion and Sansa never consummated the marriage.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 2, 2011)

... almost as if Tywin didn't mention it at all.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 2, 2011)

Wasn't one of the things that Littlefinger's plans were contingent upon Tyrion's death? Right now the North is desperate and would have love nothing more than to see a Stark sit at Winterfell, but they would never see a Lannister sit there, and that's a problem. That's why, in his will, Robb opted to pass Winterfell and the entire north to his bastard brother Jon instead of his trueborn sister. Sansa could make a legitimate claim for Winterfell, sure, but when Tyrion's scheming ass comes rolling back around to Westeros and hears about it, all he would have to do is remind people of their marriage (hypothetically; I know he wants Casterly Rock near as much as killing Cersei) and sit his ass up north if that was his wish. Would the north rather a Lannister not sit at Winterfell over a Stark sitting at Winterfell? Robb did, so why wouldn't his subjects? Tyrion needs to be dead for Littlefinger's plans for Sansa to work.

Or, upon learning that Tyrion's alive and after the Rock, Littlefinger could alter his plans and attempt to make Sansa a Lady of the Rock. That's a fun little theory of mine. It's chaos up north, and Sansa doesn't even lawfully have the best claim anymore. The Rock could be the safer, but no less appealing, choice.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 2, 2011)

Cersei's punishment was very light,yes,considering her many,many crimes.You don't believe me?What is the first thing Cersei thinks of after her walk of shame is over?That's right,revenge!The realm will suffer again because the Faith were pussies.If they had been sensible and thrown her into some dark dungeon for the rest of her life she would have been unable to take revenge.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 2, 2011)

MrBlonde said:


> Cersei's punishment was very light,yes,considering her many,many crimes.You don't believe me?What is the first thing Cersei thinks of after her walk of shame is over?That's right,revenge!The realm will suffer again because the Faith were pussies.If they had been sensible and thrown her into some dark dungeon for the rest of her life she would have been unable to take revenge.



After the way that the Septas treated Cersei, I believe that it is perfectly understandable that she would desire revenge; I certainly would. As for the Septas, I find it reprehensible that they can call themselves "holy" and "righteous" when they treated Cersei in such a manner; they are no true holy people, in my mind.


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## Parallax (Oct 2, 2011)

she desires revenge on anyone for any little thing

she's been known to be petty


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## Shrike (Oct 2, 2011)

I'll get later on the Littlefinger subject.



DemonDragonJ said:


> After the way that the Septas treated Cersei, I believe that it is perfectly understandable that she would desire revenge; I certainly would. As for the Septas, I find it reprehensible that they can call themselves "holy" and "righteous" when they treated Cersei in such a manner; they are no true holy people, in my mind.



Treated her? They were okay to her. They were forbidden to speak, but they gave her baths and shit. In such a world, she should be happy she didn't rot where Ned did. Speaking of it, Ned was cast into the worst dungeon, then admitted falsely, PUBLICLY, that he was a traitor to save his girls, then lost his head....while Cersei lost her pride (which is, needless to say, completely deserving of destruction after all she did to the realm).

And there are no such things as 'holy' people as you would describe them. There are only 'holy' people of caliber of Eddard. 

Bottom line is, what would you do if you were the High Sparrow and knew everything we know, as readers, about her life? I would impale her on a stake for all the shit she did. And no matter how you look at the humiliation, losing your life is way worse because that's the end of everything.


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## The Imp (Oct 2, 2011)

I wasn't gleefully waiting for Cersei to get publicly humiliated, but it was a nice change in her always thinking she's the greatest person ever. What I enjoyed most was the prospect that she was done as a player in KL. With the epilogue and Gregor, I'm praying GRRM doesn't give us another round of Cersei ruling. He did it once, it's time to move on.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 2, 2011)

It's not that the Faith were pussies. They were gullible. More power to Cersei for exploiting that.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 2, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> It's not that the Faith were pussies. *They were gullible.* More power to Cersei for exploiting that.


I don't know. I just have feeling that GRRM is going to pull the rug out from under Cersei's feet again, another slap in the face for her attempts to play the Game.


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## martryn (Oct 2, 2011)

Seems like the Seven are false fucking gods.  Have they ever done anything that was as cool as that fucking fire god (I pronounce it Roll-Or, but I have no idea how to fucking spell it: Rhllor or something like that), or the Old Gods?  Or the Drowned God?  All the other faiths have power, it seems, but the worship of The Seven seems like a shitty choice, other than the fact that they're widespread in Westeros.


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## Shrike (Oct 2, 2011)

I don't remember the Drowned God doing shit either though. The red god obviously does hold power. The old gods some, too.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 2, 2011)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Treated her? They were okay to her. They were forbidden to speak, but they gave her baths and shit. In such a world, she should be happy she didn't rot where Ned did. Speaking of it, Ned was cast into the worst dungeon, then admitted falsely, PUBLICLY, that he was a traitor to save his girls, then lost his head....while Cersei lost her pride (which is, needless to say, completely deserving of destruction after all she did to the realm).



Yes, I shall definitely agree that Ned's fate was worse than Cersei's, but only because he did not face his death with dignity, defiant to the end. I absolutely believe that it is better to die with dignity than to live in shame, but Ned died in shame, and I lost a great amount of respect for him when he did that.



Spike_Shrike said:


> Bottom line is, what would you do if you were the High Sparrow and knew everything we know, as readers, about her life? I would impale her on a stake for all the shit she did. And no matter how you look at the humiliation, losing your life is way worse because that's the end of everything.



Forgive me for needing to ask, but will you please refresh my memory concerning the crimes of which Cersei is accused, and if there is any tangible, reliable evidence of them being committed? The confession of the Kettleblack brother is not valid, in my mind, as it was obtained under extreme duress. Everything that she did, she did to protect her son, Tommen; I certainly am not saying that her ends justified her means, because I do not at all believe such a philosophy, but surely, desiring to protect her son is an admirable goal? And what effect is her punishment having on Tommen? Will he be traumatized by the experience of his mother being treated as if she were a non-human animal? Has anyone, apart from Cersei, taken Tommen's well-being into their consideration?

And I still believe that death is preferable to public humiliation, because with death, one's situation cannot worsen, but with public humiliation, it can.



The Imp said:


> I wasn't gleefully waiting for Cersei to get publicly humiliated, but it was a nice change in her always thinking she's the greatest person ever. What I enjoyed most was the prospect that she was done as a player in KL. With the epilogue and Gregor, I'm praying GRRM doesn't give us another round of Cersei ruling. He did it once, it's time to move on.



If that is true, why did he not kill Cersei? I would have, if I were the author of this series. The fact that Martin has kept her alive makes me certain that he still has plans for her, which makes me wish to ask: what possibility is there of Cersei redeeming herself for the actions that she has committed? I do not believe that she is truly evil, so it would be very unfortunate for her to be remembered as a villain by the people. Perhaps she could make a heroic sacrifice against someone who is truly evil?



martryn said:


> Seems like the Seven are false fucking gods.  Have they ever done anything that was as cool as that fucking fire god (I pronounce it Roll-Or, but I have no idea how to fucking spell it: Rhllor or something like that), or the Old Gods?  Or the Drowned God?  All the other faiths have power, it seems, but the worship of The Seven seems like a shitty choice, other than the fact that they're widespread in Westeros.



I do not recall the Drowned God demonstrating any power, either, but I do believe that it is terribly unfair for Martin to give genuine power to R'hllor and the old gods, but not to the Seven. Why is that?


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## Nae'blis (Oct 2, 2011)

^         lol                         .


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## Terra Branford (Oct 2, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I shall definitely agree that Ned's fate was worse than Cersei's, but only because he did not face his death with dignity, defiant to the end. I absolutely believe that it is better to die with dignity than to live in shame, but Ned died in shame, and I lost a great amount of respect for him when he did that.



What? He only died in shame in oral (story/blah) to other people. He did not really die in shame. 

Maybe I need to reread again.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 2, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> ^lol.



What part of my post do you find to be humorous?


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## The Imp (Oct 2, 2011)

martryn said:


> Seems like the Seven are false fucking gods.  Have they ever done anything that was as cool as that fucking fire god (I pronounce it Roll-Or, but I have no idea how to fucking spell it: Rhllor or something like that), or the Old Gods?  Or the Drowned God?  All the other faiths have power, it seems, but the worship of The Seven seems like a shitty choice, other than the fact that they're widespread in Westeros.


Is Rhllor really the source of Mel's magic? We didn't see her before Dany got her dragons. And we've heard from many sources that the dragons have made magic stronger (i.e. easier to make wildfire). We learned in Dance that the Old Gods are really the Greenseers. We still haven't seen much from the Drowned God or the Seven. I'd rather believe that the world of ASoIaF is just intrinsically magical rather than some gift of the gods.

@DDJ: I was stating what I don't want to happen not what I don't think will happen. 

Also I'm sure you've brought up this discussion on Ned's death and Cersei's crimes at least half a dozen times.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 2, 2011)

martryn said:


> Seems like the Seven are false fucking gods.  Have they ever done anything that was as cool as that fucking fire god (I pronounce it Roll-Or, but I have no idea how to fucking spell it: Rhllor or something like that), or the Old Gods?  Or the Drowned God?  All the other faiths have power, it seems, but the worship of The Seven seems like a shitty choice, other than the fact that they're widespread in Westeros.


The Many-Faced God needs many faces.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 3, 2011)

I don't know when the R'hlorr faith was started,but my belief is that their powers may just be remnants of Valyrian sorcery(fire and blood?).I don't think gods exist in the ASOIAF world.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 3, 2011)

> Everything that she did, she did to protect her son, Tommen


Wait, so you lost respect for Ned, despite him doing what _he_ did for Sansa and his family, but excuse Cersei because she did it for _her_ son?


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## Adagio (Oct 3, 2011)

I can't believe there are actually readers who felt like Cersei did not deserve the humiliation that she received. To me it looked like Martin essentially spent entire installments trying to make sure the readers hated her, or thats what I thought at least.


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## Shrike (Oct 3, 2011)

I am not so sure that there are no gods in aSoIaF. R'hllor seems to be quite nice to his subjects - reviving people, granting them visions, is good enough I'd say. The old gods seem to be greenseers, so they are not really gods and do not give powers to their followers. Drowned god did shit. Same goes for Seven. 

Now the many faced god is a mystery. Those in the House of Black and White do have some serious magics, but I still wouldn't say it is obtained from a god. It just seems to me that they are using those faces and magic. If it is their god who provides their magic, then okay, but just seems out of place in Martin's world for gods to do anything, IMO.



Jon Stark said:


> Wait, so you lost respect for Ned, despite him doing what _he_ did for Sansa and his family, but excuse Cersei because she did it for _her_ son?



This.



DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I shall definitely agree that Ned's fate was worse than Cersei's, but only because he did not face his death with dignity, defiant to the end. I absolutely believe that it is better to die with dignity than to live in shame, but Ned died in shame, and I lost a great amount of respect for him when he did that.



Read above. Can't believe what you are sprouting there. And you are a fool, no offense, to think that it is better to die then live in shame. That just makes you sound like you are 15. Death is final, it's the end of everything, wherein if you stay alive, you can mend things and even redeem that shame, and do much, much more, if you are determined. Maybe in fiction it is better, but this fiction is close to reality in many aspects. So, no. If Ned lived in shame, he would be still alive on the Wall, and guess what? It would still bring much more good for many people, especially Jon, if he was there. Needless to say that even the war would possibly be averted, but that is another subject.



DemonDragonJ said:


> Forgive me for needing to ask, but will you please refresh my memory concerning the crimes of which Cersei is accused, and if there is any tangible, reliable evidence of them being committed? The confession of the Kettleblack brother is not valid, in my mind, as it was obtained under extreme duress. Everything that she did, she did to protect her son, Tommen; I certainly am not saying that her ends justified her means, because I do not at all believe such a philosophy, but surely, desiring to protect her son is an admirable goal? And what effect is her punishment having on Tommen? Will he be traumatized by the experience of his mother being treated as if she were a non-human animal? Has anyone, apart from Cersei, taken Tommen's well-being into their consideration?



For Tommen? So she schemed against Margaery and Tyrells and everything else she did does not count, it only counts when she is protecting Tommen? Should I even mention that she protected him a bit TOO MUCH, and that she saw ghosts everywhere? She 'protected' him by not letting him get married. What the fuck? Just because she wouldn't be a queen anymore. Give me a fucking break.

And you mention the extreme conditions of Kettleback's confession. What about the Blue Bard? What did Cersei do to him? That's right, none of this would have happened to her if she wasn't a paranoid imbecile in the first place. Her own scheming brought her down.

Also, you speak as if Tommen's well-being is the most important thing in the world. It isn't. Think a little willya?



DemonDragonJ said:


> And I still believe that death is preferable to public humiliation, because with death, one's situation cannot worsen, but with public humiliation, it can.



As I said above, foolish thought. Why are you so intimidated by public humiliation? Do you so care for what the public says? It just sounds emo to say 'hey i got humiliated in front of everyone, i'd rather have been put to death!!', because, honestly, it's a load of horseshit.

This way, Cersei is alive, which means her hand still moves, a hand that could at least hold a dagger.



DemonDragonJ said:


> If that is true, why did he not kill Cersei? I would have, if I were the author of this series. The fact that Martin has kept her alive makes me certain that he still has plans for her, which makes me wish to ask: what possibility is there of Cersei redeeming herself for the actions that she has committed? I do not believe that she is truly evil, so it would be very unfortunate for her to be remembered as a villain by the people. Perhaps she could make a heroic sacrifice against someone who is truly evil?



There is no 'true evil', will you grasp it? Why would you kill Cersei? To save her from public humiliation? Lol. Who says that Martin wants to redeem Cersei? Maybe he let her live just because it looked realistic. Which, to me as an amateur writer, seems legit. 

Ned will be remembered as a betrayer, the worst sort, and look at the truth behind his actions. You care about Cersei's reputation with the crowd, and she deserved every word of it. There is no thinking of who is 'true evil' in this story as in reality. There are people who do evil things, but they are usually not the only deeds they do in life.

So tell me, who do you think is 'truly evil' and who deserves punishment? Cersei deserves punishment not because she is 'evil' but because she was an irresponsible and selfish ruler who deserves death for her crimes. She, as a high noble, has much and more obligations to the realm, and she did nothing, not a SINGLE THING, to make it a better place to live.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 3, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> Wait, so you lost respect for Ned, despite him doing what _he_ did for Sansa and his family, but excuse Cersei because she did it for _her_ son?



Yes, you do have a good point there; I do not wish for my words to be seen as hypocritical, but I shall defend them by saying that Ned compromised his beliefs and philosophies when faced with death, while Cersei remained true to herself throughout the series. Even if I do not agree with a person's beliefs, I prefer to see that person keep their beliefs even if they die for doing so than to compromise their beliefs to keep their life (although Ned did so to protect his children).



Adagio said:


> I can't believe there are actually readers who felt like Cersei did not deserve the humiliation that she received. To me it looked like Martin essentially spent entire installments trying to make sure the readers hated her, or thats what I thought at least.



I did not like Cersei when she was first introduced, and I still do not like her, but I adamantly believe that no person, regardless of what actions they have committed, should suffer from public humiliation; death would have been far more merciful for Cersei. Plus, the fact that the scene was told from her perspective made it worse for me; why was Ned's death not told from his perspective, but Cersei's humiliation told from her own perspective?

Furthermore, why does Cersei still need a champion for her trial by combat? Was her parade through the city not sufficient? Why must she be punished in such a manner if there is still the chance that she may be declared guilty? Surely, one punishment or the other would be sufficient punishment for her crimes, but having both seems terribly unfair to her, in my mind.



Spike_Shrike said:


> Read above. Can't believe what you are sprouting there. And you are a fool, no offense, to think that it is better to die then live in shame. That just makes you sound like you are 15. Death is final, it's the end of everything, wherein if you stay alive, you can mend things and even redeem that shame, and do much, much more, if you are determined. Maybe in fiction it is better, but this fiction is close to reality in many aspects. So, no. If Ned lived in shame, he would be still alive on the Wall, and guess what? It would still bring much more good for many people, especially Jon, if he was there. Needless to say that even the war would possibly be averted, but that is another subject.



First, I am twenty-four years old, and I do not appreciate being called a fool. I acknowledged that your opinion on this subject was valid, and I respect it, so I ask that you show me that same respect.

Second, I shall agree with you about Ned, because at the Wall, Ned would not have any shame, because he would likely be held in high regard and respect by the people there.



Spike_Shrike said:


> For Tommen? So she schemed against Margaery and Tyrells and everything else she did does not count, it only counts when she is protecting Tommen? Should I even mention that she protected him a bit TOO MUCH, and that she saw ghosts everywhere? She 'protected' him by not letting him get married. What the fuck? Just because she wouldn't be a queen anymore. Give me a fucking break.
> 
> And you mention the extreme conditions of Kettleback's confession. What about the Blue Bard? What did Cersei do to him? That's right, none of this would have happened to her if she wasn't a paranoid imbecile in the first place. Her own scheming brought her down.
> 
> Also, you speak as if Tommen's well-being is the most important thing in the world. It isn't. Think a little willya?



In this case, I definitely agree that she was being too extreme in seeking to protect Tommen, especially with how she believed that Tyrion was continually plotting against her, although he actually is plotting against her, if his chapters in _A Dance with Dragons_ are any indication.

And Cersei was displeased with "not being a queen any more" because she has lived her entire life subordinate to other people: her father, her brothers, Ned Stark, Robert, Stannis, and Renly. With all of those people dead or away, she would finally be free of any obstacles and live her life as she chose to, not as other people, chose for her, but then suddenly, Margaery appeared as a threat to that power. Therefore, I can certainly understand her feelings in that situation, as I myself have never been in a position of authority in my life (I am subordinate to my parents, my manager at my place of employment, and my teachers at my school, but no one is subordinate to me, so I often feel as if I am lowest in those hierarchies).



Spike_Shrike said:


> As I said above, foolish thought. Why are you so intimidated by public humiliation? Do you so care for what the public says? It just sounds emo to say 'hey i got humiliated in front of everyone, i'd rather have been put to death!!', because, honestly, it's a load of horseshit.
> 
> This way, Cersei is alive, which means her hand still moves, a hand that could at least hold a dagger.



No, I usually do not care what the public thinks of me, but I have a number of beliefs that are considered to be unconventional by my society, so I do not express them very often, because I do not wish to alienate other people from me. I value greatly having friends and being able to socialize with other people, so if I need to keep certain aspects of myself concealed, I shall do so to ensure that I maintain a group of close companions.



Spike_Shrike said:


> There is no 'true evil', will you grasp it? Why would you kill Cersei? To save her from public humiliation? Lol. Who says that Martin wants to redeem Cersei? Maybe he let her live just because it looked realistic. Which, to me as an amateur writer, seems legit.
> 
> Ned will be remembered as a betrayer, the worst sort, and look at the truth behind his actions. You care about Cersei's reputation with the crowd, and she deserved every word of it. There is no thinking of who is 'true evil' in this story as in reality. There are people who do evil things, but they are usually not the only deeds they do in life.
> 
> So tell me, who do you think is 'truly evil' and who deserves punishment? Cersei deserves punishment not because she is 'evil' but because she was an irresponsible and selfish ruler who deserves death for her crimes. She, as a high noble, has much and more obligations to the realm, and she did nothing, not a SINGLE THING, to make it a better place to live.



In this situation, I agree with you completely. I believe that it is terrible and tragic that Ned shall be remembered as a traitor, while Joffrey died being remembered in a positive manner. That was definitely unfair. However, I never stated that I believed that Cersei should not have been punished. I agree that she deserved what happened to her, but I believe that it was rather extreme. Perhaps I am simply too accustomed to antagonists such as Emperor Palpatine and Sosuke Aizen, who are so incredibly powerful and competent that it takes an even more powerful and competent hero to defeat them, so the fact that Cersei was not powerful and competent and thus was defeated by ordinary people was highly out-of-the-ordinary for me.

Now, I wish to stop discussing this subject. I have said everything that I could about it, and doing so has caused me to become weary and annoyed. Could we please not discuss this subject any further? I wish to discuss something more exciting and less controversial and inflammatory.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 3, 2011)

> Yes, you do have a good point there; I do not wish for my words to be seen as hypocritical, but I shall defend them by saying that Ned compromised his beliefs and philosophies when faced with death, while Cersei remained true to herself throughout the series. Even if I do not agree with a person's beliefs, I prefer to see that person keep their beliefs even if they die for doing so than to compromise their beliefs to keep their life (although Ned did so to protect his children).


Ned only bent because his daughter was threatened. Remember how he got to be in that dungeon in the first place. Because the stubborn fool wouldn't bend his precious honor, and also didn't initially throw it away when he was locked up. It was only when Varys dangled Sansa in front of him that Ned reluctantly agreed to terms, which was the best option for all involved, including the Starks, Lannisters, and the entire realm. Ned taking the black meant war averted and his family safe. I don't understand why _you_ can't understand that Ned was a father protecting his daughter. Had he not bent, his daughter would have been seriously compromised. Come, now.


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## Corruption (Oct 3, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Seriously? How can you be so cruel? I hated every second of reading Cersei being captured and punished, mostly because Martin was portraying the story from her perspective. When Joffrey died, I was overjoyed, but I felt the exact opposite regarding Cersei, because I believe that it is better to die with dignity than to live in shame. Death would have been far more merciful for Cersei, in my mind.
> 
> I am disgusted at how you can speak in such a tone. It is true that Cersei committed numerous heinous acts, but that does not in any way justify the fate that she suffers in _A Dance with Dragons,_ in my opinion. By saying such words, you and Darkness Surrounding are being no better than the crowd that taunted Cersei, in my opinion.



I'm only about 100 pages into ADWD, but I'm assuming I'll find out more what happens to Cersei towards the end of it. I loved what happened to her because she's had it coming since the first book. Cersei's done so many things to make you hate her. Even after reading from her POV, she has no redeeming features.

Margaery said it perfectly in AFFC that she's a "vile, scheming, evil bitch."


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## martryn (Oct 3, 2011)

I am about 70% done with the book, and I've just come across my first Jaime chapter.  Book seems large and slow.  I feel sorry for Theon, for sure, but I don't think I'll feel anything resembling pity for Cersei.  In a book where you can pity every fucking character, I don't understand what could possibly be happening to Cersei to make her the focus of pity.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 3, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> Ned only bent because his daughter was threatened. Remember how he got to be in that dungeon in the first place. Because the stubborn fool wouldn't bend his precious honor, and also didn't initially throw it away when he was locked up. It was only when Varys dangled Sansa in front of him that Ned reluctantly agreed to terms, which was the best option for all involved, including the Starks, Lannisters, and the entire realm. Ned taking the black meant war averted and his family safe. I don't understand why _you_ can't understand that Ned was a father protecting his daughter. Had he not bent, his daughter would have been seriously compromised. Come, now.



Yes, I almost forgot that Ned was seeking to protect his family, but is it not regrettable and unfair that most people will remember him as a traitor? How could Martin write the story in such a way? Will Ned ever be vindicated before the end of the series?


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## Nae'blis (Oct 3, 2011)

^ lol. What does it matter that he is remembered in Flea Bottom as a traitor? How would you like the story to have been written?


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 3, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> ^ lol. What does it matter that he is remembered in Flea Bottom as a traitor? How would you like the story to have been written?



Why are you laughing at my posts? Will you not take them seriously?

I do not like the fact that the people of the realm will remember Ned as a traitor because we, the audience, know otherwise, and I severely dislike seeing a person remembered for the wrong reasons. If I had written the story, I would still have killed Ned, because his death helped to advance the plot and provide drama, but I would have had him boldly reveal that Joffrey's father was Jaime and thus Joffrey was not a legitimate successor to Robert. Therefore, the people would remember him as a brave and honorable person, and, even if Cersei denied his claim, suspicion would be raised, and others would eventually form the same conclusions that Ned, Jon Arryn, and Stannis formed, thus making Ned the true victor, even after his death.


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## Shrike (Oct 3, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Now, I wish to stop discussing this subject. I have said everything that I could about it, and doing so has caused me to become weary and annoyed. Could we please not discuss this subject any further? I wish to discuss something more exciting and less controversial and inflammatory.



Of course. 

And this story is realistic. I am quite surprised at your viewing of it. You seem to like more high-fantasy like stuff where people like Ned will always be remembered as heroes like they deserve. I agree, I would like that, but this was way more realistic. Many brave and honorable people died without anyone acknowledging them or they are still falsely believed to be scum by the mass.

If it was written in any other way, it would downgrade the quality of the work most probably. Martin's quality lies in such scenes and twists. You may call him cruel, but such is his style.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 3, 2011)

It just seems that you want a black/white story where every action, consequences and intentions, are recognised. Have you ever read a book where a person every action is recognised for what it was intended to be?


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 3, 2011)

Spike_Shrike said:


> And this story is realistic. I am quite surprised at your viewing of it. You seem to like more high-fantasy like stuff where people like Ned will always be remembered as heroes like they deserve. I agree, I would like that, but this was way more realistic. Many brave and honorable people died without anyone acknowledging them or they are still falsely believed to be scum by the mass.
> 
> If it was written in any other way, it would downgrade the quality of the work most probably. Martin's quality lies in such scenes and twists. You may call him cruel, but such is his style.



Yes, I much prefer the writings of R.A. Salvatore, Terry Brooks, or Robert Jordan over those of George R.R. Martin, but that does not mean that I dislike this series. I suppose that I still am accustomed to those works, and am having difficulty adjusting to Martin's style.



Nae'blis said:


> It just seems that you want a black/white story where every action, consequences and intentions, are recognised. Have you ever read a book where a person every action is recognised for what it was intended to be?



Yes, I have read books of that nature, so I suppose that I am still too accustomed to that style of writing. One of the reasons for which I like having clear heroes and clear villains in a story is that doing so make it easier to support the heroes and applaud the defeat of the villains. I like the assurance that the heroes are fully justified in defeating the villains and anyone else who opposes them, whereas, in this series, there is no clear or central hero or villain, which makes it far more difficult for me to support one character over another (with the exception of the Stark family, as I do support them above all other characters). That is my preference, but I have learned that Martin clearly is not writing to indulge such a preference, so I shall accept Martin's decision on that matter.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 3, 2011)

Name of a few of those books. I haven't encountered any.


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## Parallax (Oct 3, 2011)

I love the stories where there are no clear cut heroes and villains

they're much more satisfying and relateable.


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## Shrike (Oct 3, 2011)

Salvatore is an amateur writer honestly. Drizzt Do Urden became famous because there are so many DnD fans out there who barely read anything.

Terry Brooks...uh, dunno. I only read The Sword of Shannara (sp?) and even though I did read it all, it was just a copy of Tolkien's work.

Robert Jordan is a good writer on the other hand. I guess you meant his 'The Wheel of Time' series, and even though I'd say that Martin is a better writer and that ASoIaF is superior to TWoT, I will have to wait and see the ending of ASoIaF to confirm that.

And your tastes are simply tastes, those can't be argued, but the quality of Martin's work speaks volumes on how superior his work is to most other fantasy writers.


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## martryn (Oct 3, 2011)

Lose points for mentioning Salvatore.  And I've got 19 R.A. Salvatore novels I can see on my bookshelf from where I sit.  His writing is incredibly amateur compared to Martin.  His stories are fun, and he designs entertaining characters, but I can't call them good.  He got popular because dark elves were new and cool when he wrote his first Drizzt book.  I started reading them when I was 16, some 12 years ago now.  I only pick up a new one every now and then because I've read all the other ones.  

Can't speak for Brooks.  Haven't read those.  

Robert Jordan I'd put on the same level as Martin.  Overall, I enjoy specific moments of The Wheel of Time more than anything in A Song of Ice and Fire, but The Wheel of Time has also been painful to read for a while when the story was slow.  Martin overall is more consistent, and he's never been bad.  Jordan has had some shitty chapters, but I don't think anything Martin has written in ASoIaF has been shitty.  Martin is more mature, though, that's for sure.  You know you don't have to worry about Egwene, Rand, Nynaeve, Mat, Lan, or even fucking Moiraine (before it was confirmed she was "alive").  You're not so sure about Martin's characters, though.  You're pretty sure Arya is going to come through it fine, and Daenerys isn't likely to bite it until the last book, if ever, but many of the other "chaptered" characters....  And shitty stuff happens.  Theon is pretty fucked in captivity.  Tyrion is being shit on.  Egwene has been captured by the enemy, and it was almost tame what she went through by comparison.  Rand lost his hand, but the loss of Jaime's hand is relatively mild compared to the other shit that's happened to ASoIaF characters. 

A Song of Ice and Fire is more mature than anything else you listed.  I'd recommend reading Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.  I'd say Donaldson is by far my favorite fantasy writer, and that series certainly doesn't pull any blows.


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## KidTony (Oct 3, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *Yes, I much prefer the writings of R.A. Salvatore, Terry Brooks, or Robert Jordan *over those of George R.R. Martin, but that does not mean that I dislike this series. I suppose that I still am accustomed to those works, and am having difficulty adjusting to Martin's style.



Oh, its simple then. You just have bad tase.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 3, 2011)

Adagio said:


> I can't believe there are actually readers who felt like Cersei did not deserve the humiliation that she received. To me it looked like Martin essentially spent entire installments trying to make sure the readers hated her, or thats what I thought at least.



That's what I thought too. So far I still don't like her. 



> *I do not like the fact that the people of the realm will remember Ned as a traitor because we, the audience, know otherwise, and I severely dislike seeing a person remembered for the wrong reasons.* If I had written the story, I would still have killed Ned, because his death helped to advance the plot and provide drama, but I would have had him boldly reveal that Joffrey's father was Jaime and thus Joffrey was not a legitimate successor to Robert. Therefore, the people would remember him as a brave and honorable person, and, even if Cersei denied his claim, suspicion would be raised, and others would eventually form the same conclusions that Ned, Jon Arryn, and Stannis formed, thus making Ned the true victor, even after his death.


But that's good story writing, and believable too. It would have been pointless saying Joffrey was a child of i*c*st, no one would have believed it from a man about to get his head lopped off. It still being a secret provided the Stannis Baratheon (ruining) rep stunt and more. 

The way it happened _made_ the story. It was his death, how he died and what he died for that -- at least for me -- made me love his character so much and angry over his death.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 4, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Oh, its simple then. You just have bad tase.



I take offense to that statement. I have never criticized the literary preferences of other users here, so I would appreciate it if you do not criticize mine. Have you even read any works by those authors? Only if you have, do you have any right to criticize them, in my mind. I direct that statement at Spike Shrike and Martryn, as well; I have no problem at all with the fact that you prefer Martin over the other authors whom I mentioned, but I do not appreciate you saying that Martin is superior to them; how do you make such an assessment? They are different authors with different writing styles, so I believe that comparing them is both difficult and unfair.

I do however, thank you, Martryn, for the recommendation; I have never heard of Stephen R. Donaldson or the _Chronicles of Thomas Convenant,_ but if I have time in the future, perhaps I shall check out that series. I shall in return recommend to you _The Sword of Truth_ by Terry Goodkind. I read that series before I started _A Song of Ice and Fire,_ and it also was a very dark and "gritty" series compared to others that I have read (although perhaps not to the same extent as _ASoIaF),_ so perhaps you would enjoy it, also.



Terra Branford said:


> But that's good story writing, and believable too. It would have been pointless saying Joffrey was a child of i*c*st, no one would have believed it from a man about to get his head lopped off. It still being a secret provided the Stannis Baratheon (ruining) rep stunt and more.
> 
> The way it happened _made_ the story. It was his death, how he died and what he died for that -- at least for me -- made me love his character so much and angry over his death.



Yes, that is very true; even if I do not like to admit it, you do have a good point, there.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 4, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I shall in return recommend to you _The Sword of Truth_ by Terry Goodkind.


Oh god, no. And I thought Modesitt's _Spellsong Cycle_ was preachy and whiny.


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## martryn (Oct 4, 2011)

> Oh, its simple then. You just have bad tase.



Yeah... you're not allowed to say that.  You don't even read books.  You fucking listen to them.  It's hard enough reading the latest book on a Kindle.  Can't fucking easily turn to the maps or refer to previous chapters or look at the houses in the back.  Can't imagine what it'd be like if you got distracted and had to either skip back to a previous track or just live with missing what may or may not have been important. 



> I do however, thank you, Martryn, for the recommendation; I have never heard of Stephen R. Donaldson or the Chronicles of Thomas Convenant, but if I have time in the future, perhaps I shall check out that series. I shall in return recommend to you The Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind. I read that series before I started A Song of Ice and Fire, and it also was a very dark and "gritty" series compared to others that I have read (although maybe not to the same extent as ASoIaF), so perhaps you would enjoy it, also.



Donaldson has done a few collections of short stories, as well.  I'd recommend starting with those and seeing if you like his writing style.  Thomas Covenant is going to be a 10 book series.  He's just now finishing the last 4.  He wrote six between '77 and '83, and then went to "perfect" his craft, and only returned recently to write the last 4.  They're broken into two trilogies and this new 4 book series.  Didn't realize he was returning to the series because book 6 ended it pretty well.  

He also wrote two of my favorite books, Mordant's Need.  And then wrote the best Science Fiction I've ever read, the Gap Cycle:


			
				Wikipedia on The Gap Cycle said:
			
		

> A science fiction epic set in a future where humans have pushed far out into space in the attempt to replace depleted resources, The Gap Cycle follows two concurrent story arcs. The first concerns an ensign in the United Mining Companies Police (UMCP), Morn Hyland, who is attempting simply to stay alive after being captured by a marauder named Angus Thermopyle. The second follows the Byzantine political maneuvering of the head of the UMCP, Warden Dios, as he attempts to thwart the machinations of his boss, Holt Fasner, who is the CEO of United Mining Companies (UMC) and the most powerful man in human space.
> 
> Each of the epics takes place against the backdrop of a threat to human survival itself from an alien species called the Amnion who use genetic mutation as a way to assimilate and overcome. Trade in raw materials (mostly ores) is carried out with the Amnion in exchange for technology, by both the UMC and illegals. Some illegals trade in Amnion territorial space, referred to as "forbidden space", out of bounds to the UMCP by treaty.
> 
> ...



Sword of Truth...
I actually picked up the last book and just didn't have a desire to finish the series.  The first book was good.  Not fantastic writing, but fresh fantasy.  This continued for two or three more books, and then Ayn Rand's ghost inhabited Goodkind and the entire series went batshit insane.  Probably the shittiest fantasy I've ever read.  Saying as much, I give you:


Please enjoy.


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## KidTony (Oct 4, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I take offense to that statement. I have never criticized the literary preferences of other users here, so I would appreciate it if you do not criticize mine. Have you even read any works by those authors? Only if you have, do you have any right to criticize them, in my mind. I direct that statement at Spike Shrike and Martryn, as well; I have no problem at all with the fact that you prefer Martin over the other authors whom I mentioned, but I do not appreciate you saying that Martin is superior to them; how do you make such an assessment? They are different authors with different writing styles, so I believe that comparing them is both difficult and unfair.



You can take offense to whatever you want. You have bad taste if you prefer Terry Brooks and R.A Salvatore to GRRM, its that simple. Quality isn't subjective.

and yes, i've read all authors in question extensively.


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## KidTony (Oct 4, 2011)

martryn said:


> Yeah... you're not allowed to say that.  You don't even read books.  You fucking listen to them.  It's hard enough reading the latest book on a Kindle.  Can't fucking easily turn to the maps or refer to previous chapters or look at the houses in the back.  Can't imagine what it'd be like if you got distracted and had to either skip back to a previous track or just live with missing what may or may not have been important.



Reading is a chore. Audiobooks is the best thing since slice bread. I'm a very attentive listener. I don't just have the audiobooks as background noise, i pay attention to what they say. I don't do anything else when i'm listening to audibooks. Essentially it's as if i was reading, except i can have a snack, drive to work, or lay in my bed before sleep.

Plus, its has been my experience that most readers i've heard are fantastic. They bring the story to life in a whole new way.

If you're going to do a WOT or ASOIF re-read any time soon, check out the audibook format, the readers are very good.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 4, 2011)

You must have missed martryn's posts last year (or maybe the year before) railing against audiobooks... in the _Wheel of Time_ thread and in the general audiobooks thread. I think the conslusion was that it is okay to listen to them as long as the person has read the book first. Which makes perfect sense, listen to an audiobook of a new series just doesn't work.

As far as tastes go, I enjoy Feist the same as Martin, but no one else thinks so.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't like listening to audiobooks either. Well truth is I never tried fully. I tried for an except for a book once, but the reader was really annoying (was really Soap Opera-y). Plus, nothing beats the feel of paper in your hand and turning the pages. But, a lot of people don't have time to sit down and read. They are always working, driving, on the move or something like that, so in _those_ instances an audiobook is their best option.


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## KidTony (Oct 5, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> You must have missed martryn's posts last year (or maybe the year before) railing against audiobooks... in the _Wheel of Time_ thread and in the general audiobooks thread. I think the conslusion was that it is okay to listen to them as long as the person has read the book first*. Which makes perfect sense, listen to an audiobook of a new series just doesn't work.*



Doesn't work for you, maybe. That's all i do. In fact i've NEVER read ASOIF or WOT, i've only listened to them. Same goes for the name of the wind and its sequels, and now I'm listening to The First Law series. Without having read them first at all. If i believed in god i would thank him everyday for having me discover audibooks. Its one of my favorite pastimes.



> As far as tastes go, I enjoy Feist the same as Martin, but no one else thinks so.



Ugh...Feist is garbage. His Magician books are good fluff fantastay, and his best work by far he co-wrote with jenny wurts is the daughter of the empire trilogy which is amazing and probably more because of wurts than Feist. Conclave of Shadows cycle is also decent, everything else is pure, undiluted, pisspoor garbage.

I read serpentwar, krondor books, prince of the blood, and the one with the navy kid with the bad foot where they land in novindus years before the serpentwar sage. I want the time and money i spent on those utter garabe books back.

Haven't read anything else, but have it on good authority fro a friend that devours anything fantasy that he just keeps getting worse.


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## martryn (Oct 5, 2011)

Reading is a chore?  You have the audacity to say that in the Literature Department? 

What is my impression of KidTony?  Probably the same as my impression of anyone who considers the Star Wars prequels better than the original trilogy because "the special effects are cooler".  

Why bother reading Tolkien?  Just watch the movies, right?  Reading is a chore.  

Why watch a sporting event live?  Just see the recap of the game on SportsCenter. 

Why have sex?  You could just watch porn.  Undressing is a chore. 

Audio books have their place.  Maybe sharing a story with a large group, you listen to it together.  Pack some on a road trip, or for the commute.  Enjoy a series for the second time when you don't have to pay as close attention to the details, and you've already formed your own opinion of the novel and aren't concerned how another person would read certain lines.  Maybe you're fucking blind.  

Reading is a chore?  You, sir, disgust me.


----------



## Parallax (Oct 5, 2011)

Hey man I may not agree with KidTony but if he doesn't like to read then that's like his choice man

:|


----------



## KidTony (Oct 5, 2011)

martryn said:


> Reading is a chore?  You have the audacity to say that in the Literature Department?



You want me to say it again? because i will. Reading, to me, is a chore. I MUCH prefer audibooks to reading.



> What is my impression of KidTony?  Probably the same as my impression of anyone who considers the Star Wars prequels better than the original trilogy because "the special effects are cooler".



First you would be wrong. The originals are much better. Second, its a rather retarded analogy. There is nothing different from an audiobook and the orignal text. Its exactly the same content.



> Why bother reading Tolkien?  Just watch the movies, right?  Reading is a chore.
> 
> Why watch a sporting event live?  Just see the recap of the game on SportsCenter.
> 
> Why have sex?  You could just watch porn.  Undressing is a chore.



Except what you are describing are all abrdiged versions of the orignals, so of course, the argument is made they they cut stuff out, change stuff, and genrally don't live up the source materials. Audiobooks are different, because they are word for word the original text.

Your argument is missplaced.



> Audio books have their place.  Maybe sharing a story with a large group, you listen to it together.  Pack some on a road trip, or for the commute.  Enjoy a series for the second time when you don't have to pay as close attention to the details, and you've already formed your own opinion of the novel and aren't concerned how another person would read certain lines.  Maybe you're fucking blind.
> 
> Reading is a chore?  You, sir, disgust me.



You sound like those high and mighty PC gamers deriding us lowly peasent consoles gamers lol 

Get real. No one made you the king of how to enjoy books. I find I much prefer one format to the other, after trying both.

and you seriously need to get a life if my preference for audiobooks offended you so much you needed to neg me.


----------



## Shrike (Oct 5, 2011)

Reading >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> listening.

I'll just bring up one argument amongst a thousand why is it better (it's not that it is the best argument, it's just my favorite).

You know that moment where you had all that atmosphere built up in your head and then one character says something that leaves you without breath and makes you read that sentence like ten times again after that? You are so struck with that sentence that it remains burned in your memory for like fucking ever? 

Yeah, you can't do that shit while listening to some voice which just keeps going.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 5, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Doesn't work for you, maybe. That's all i do. In fact i've NEVER read ASOIF or WOT, i've only listened to them. Same goes for the name of the wind and its sequels, and now I'm listening to The First Law series. Without having read them first at all. If i believed in god i would thank him everyday for having me discover audibooks. Its one of my favorite pastimes.
> .


Not unduly difficult, just pathetic that you can't be arsed to pick up a book even once.

but whatever, do as you will, it's no hair off my arse.


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## Nayrael (Oct 5, 2011)

I would never pick up Audiobook (as I prefer reading), but I see nothing wrong with people preferring to listen.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 5, 2011)

I can understand disputes about books vs movie- or tv-adaptations, but against audiobooks? Really? What's wrong with using more than one or a different sense to enjoy a book? Not everyone retains visual information as well as they would auditory information.

The argument is just silly.

On the note of audiobook experiences, I did enjoy listening to Pratchett's _The Wee Free Men_. Although some of the accents were hard to understand, I think I would enjoy listening to it more instead of reading it because of the accents.


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## The Imp (Oct 5, 2011)

Idk I can't listen to audiobooks and enjoy it if I don't have the physical book in front of me. And even then I enjoy reading at my own pace and re-reading passages myself rather than following along with the reader.


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## martryn (Oct 5, 2011)

> I can understand disputes about books vs movie- or tv-adaptations, but against audiobooks? Really? What's wrong with using more than one or a different sense to enjoy a book? Not everyone retains visual information as well as they would auditory information.
> 
> The argument is just silly.



Because it is a book.  It's not a story, it's a novel.  And sometimes your interpretation of a sentence is different than what some reader's would be.  They would read it one way, you would read it another.  

It's like reading Cormac McCarthy.  He has his own style.  He can't be bothered with grammar.  But it serves a purpose.  Read The Road.  The structure of his sentences and the lack of punctuation serves to remind the reader as much as the descriptive text the bleak and desolate landscape the man and his son traverse.  

You'd lose that effect if you listened to someone read the book.  

And you cannot tell me that you never have trouble remembering if that one character was here, or maybe over there.  Or how two characters are related.  Or maybe they make reference to someone that you recognize, but can't quite place.  Then what?  You just immediately forget about it so you can keep concentrating on someone else's voice, or do you pause the audio tape / CD / MP3 and think about it?  Or do you try to find the right chapter, rewinding or playing back various tracks until you find the reference?  

I can understand audiobooks for standalone novels, even.  Go out and listen to Dean Koontz, Stephen King, or John Grisham.  That's fine.  But when you've got a series like this, with so much information to remember and digest, I can't see how you can call yourself a fan, or even follow along in discussions, after having listened to an audiobook.  

The only reason I bring any of this up, Tony, is the fact you called out another forum member for having bad tastes in authors.  I think listening to a book instead of reading is bad taste in medium.  And I'm going to tell you that mercilessly.  

Especially if your defense is "reading is a chore".


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 5, 2011)

martryn said:


> Because it is a book. It's not a story, it's a novel.


Most of the authors listed are telling stories. Yes, there are writers who intend for their books to be read and are more visually appealing, and I'm sure there are writers who intend for their books to be heard and more audibly appealing. Others just want you to enjoy the story they're writing.


> And you cannot tell me that you never have trouble remembering if that one character was here, or maybe over there.  Or how two characters are related.  Or maybe they make reference to someone that you recognize, but can't quite place.  Then what?  You just immediately forget about it so you can keep concentrating on someone else's voice, or do you pause the audio tape / CD / MP3 and think about it?  Or do you try to find the right chapter, rewinding or playing back various tracks until you find the reference?


 I generally just make a mental note and look it up later on the internet. Stopping in the middle of reading would be just as annoying as stopping in the middle of listening.


> But when you've got a series like this, with so much information to remember and digest, I can't see how you can call yourself a fan, or even follow along in discussions, after having listened to an audiobook.


Again, people process information differently. Some process visual better, others auditory.


----------



## Corruption (Oct 5, 2011)

martryn said:


> That's fine.  But when you've got a series like this, with so much information to remember and digest, I can't see how you can call yourself a fan, or even follow along in discussions, after having listened to an audiobook.



That's a dumb thing to say. Can't call yourself a fan if you listen to it instead of read it? Give me a break. I rarely have gone back to re-read something in this series so far because I don't know what they're talking about. When I do, google proves to be much quicker. Usually when I stop and turn back, it's to look at the maps to see where the characters are and where they're going. Even that's not something necessary to do.

Now, I'd rather not listen to an audiobook because I feel like I'd miss stuff. However, everyone's not like me. If you enjoy the story and understand everything that's happening, who cares what medium you're using?


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## martryn (Oct 5, 2011)

Fuck this thread.  Literature department is actually defending a guy who just said reading is a chore after insulting someone's tastes in two separate posts.

You look down your nose in contempt at someone else, Tony, I look down my nose in contempt at you.


----------



## KidTony (Oct 5, 2011)

martryn said:


> Fuck this thread. * Literature department is actually defending a guy who just said reading is a chore *after insulting someone's tastes in two separate posts.
> 
> You look down your nose in contempt at someone else, Tony, I look down my nose in contempt at you.



1) Somehow ,I have hard time believe me 'insulting someone's tastes' made any difference in your incredibly hostile stance. Your seething anger at me calling 'reading a chore' and saying i prefer audibooks over reading goes beyond any offense anyone could have taken at me calling another person's book taste bad.

2) They are not defending me, but simply addressing your faulty argument. You have a weird distate for audibooks, that much is clear. Yet when pressed, the best argument you can muster is to compare it to a book vs movie, which i think even you realize how ill-fitting the comparison is.

Your second objection comes from a random arbitrary personal outlook that for one to enjoy a book, you must hold it in your hands for some reason. Which isn't any better of an argument.



Nae'blis said:


> Not unduly difficult, just pathetic that you can't be arsed to pick up a book even once.
> 
> but whatever, do as you will, it's no hair off my arse.



Why would i do something that i find less enjoyable just because you think that's the proper way? Its like someone telling you to stop eating chinese food with a regular fork, because its meant to be eaten with chopsticks.


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## Parallax (Oct 5, 2011)

man this got old really fast :|


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 5, 2011)

I think it's time you just agree to disagree on this particular subject. There's gaping chasm between you two and you're no closer to agreeing. Just drop it.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Oct 5, 2011)

Doctor Crane said:


> Oh god, no. And I thought Modesitt's _Spellsong Cycle_ was preachy and whiny.



Are you saying that _The Sword of Truth_ was "preachy and whiny?" It has been several years since I read that series, so could you please refresh my memory: how was that series "preachy?" What are some specific examples?



Parallax said:


> I love the stories where there are no clear cut heroes and villains
> 
> they're much more satisfying and relateable.



Are you saying that characters who are clearly heroic or clearly villainous are "boring" or "two-dimensional?" I must disagree with that idea; in this series, for example, Ned and Jon are both definitely heroic, at least in my mind. They are very honorable, reasonable, and avoid excessive violence or confrontation, but they do not have great charisma and influence everyone to assist or agree with them, as do some heroes (such as those in many _shonen_ manga), and they each have many internal conflicts that help them to feel more realistic and developed as characters. On the other side of the argument, Cersei is very clearly a villainous character, as was recently discussed, but she did have a reason for being the person whom she was and had her own complex emotional problems.

In other stories, as well, such as the _Harry Potter_ books, the other works that I mentioned previously, or even some _shonen_ manga, there are characters who are clearly heroes and who are clearly villains who are well-developed as characters (I am not going to list them now, as it is late at night and I am very tired, but I assure you that such characters do exist).

Please note that I am not saying anything negative about the approach of having characters who are not immediately identifiable as either heroic or villainous; I am merely saying that characters who do have a clear position between good and evil can still be three-dimensional and feel realistic.


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## martryn (Oct 6, 2011)

> Are you saying that The Sword of Truth was "preachy and whiny?" It has been several years since I read that series, so could you please refresh my memory: how was that series "preachy?" What are some specific examples?



Dude, go back and open to any random page in the last six books of the series.  It's a good chance you opened to one of Richards eleven page long monologues about how awesome Ayn Rand is.  

The guy cuts down, in morbid, bloody fashion, a horde of pacifist peace protestors and then monologues about why it was just to do it because they lacked "moral clarity".  

Seriously, Sword of Truth went from four books of decent or even above average fantasy fare to the proselytizing dregs of fiction.  Goodkind fell so hard that he no longer even considers the shit he writes fantasy.  He claims it's some sort of philosophy.



			
				Terry Goodkind said:
			
		

> "There are those who focus exclusively on this least important element -magic - simply because people I don't know, despite my strenuous objections at the time, insisted on placing a red dragon on the cover of my work, and because of that, and who published the book, I was racked in bookstores as fantasy. As a result, in the minds of some readers I am for all time to be labeled as a “fantasy" author. So I must now follow some unstated laws of writing - I must know my place - because I've been mindlessly labeled a "fantasy" author? That, my friends, is bigotry." - Terry Goodkind, an interview



And now, of course, I have to link to my favorite article about the Sword of Truth series.  One that I discovered back in 2006 when I was looking for ammo in my argument why I was not going to finish the series.


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## Parallax (Oct 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Are you saying that characters who are clearly heroic or clearly villainous are "boring" or "two-dimensional?"



whoa whoa not at all.

I'm just more interested in characters that are more than just black or white


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 6, 2011)

martryn said:


> Dude, go back and open to any random page in the last six books of the series.  It's a good chance you opened to one of Richards eleven page long monologues about how awesome Ayn Rand is.
> 
> The guy cuts down, in morbid, bloody fashion, a horde of pacifist peace protestors and then monologues about why it was just to do it because they lacked "moral clarity".
> 
> Seriously, Sword of Truth went from four books of decent or even above average fantasy fare to the proselytizing dregs of fiction.  Goodkind fell so hard that he no longer even considers the shit he writes fantasy.  He claims it's some sort of philosophy.



Yes, I recall that, now; Richard believed himself to be right, no matter what he did, and that anyone who opposed him was "wrong." That was rather annoying, but I am glad that he eventually realized the folly of that mindset by the end of the series.



Parallax said:


> whoa whoa not at all.
> 
> I'm just more interested in characters that are more than just black or white



Yes, that makes sense to me; I can perfectly understand that preference.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 6, 2011)

NOOOuuu Ashara Dayne 


*Spoiler*: __ 



So Eddard stark was in love with her, bedded her and during the war killed her brother. (A remarkable feat considering the kind of warrior that he was) and then her child was still born.
I would like to see or know more about this, would have liked to know how Eddard felt and stuff.




Also I want darkstar to kill ballon swan and to rock furthermore! Dayne are like space marines.


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## Tion (Oct 6, 2011)

Halfway through Clash of Kings. Nrghhh Joffrey. I literally want to shit an anvil onto your face.


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## KidTony (Oct 6, 2011)

Tion said:


> Halfway through Clash of Kings. Nrghhh Joffrey. I literally want to shit an anvil onto your face.



the funny thing is, if you made that comment to joffrey himself, he'd likely tie you up and drop an anvil on your face just to be poetic.


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## Tion (Oct 6, 2011)

That's why I wouldn't tell him. I'd just do it. I'd go through the elaborate process of becoming a Kingsguard, ingest an anvil, then squat over him while he's asleep.


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## Han Solo (Oct 6, 2011)

It's weird but I can't really hate Joffrey, I'm just indifferent. Same with Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, Ramsay Bolton, et al. I just cannot get emotionally invested into so overly evil and otherwise shallow characters. 

Now the likes of Tywin Lannister, Littlefinger, etc. They actually piss me off which is why they're also some of my favourite characters.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 6, 2011)

Little finger... I hope he gets a painful ironic death. Also do you think that Aegon will get to fight little finger?


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## martryn (Oct 6, 2011)

> Yes, I recall that, now; Richard believed himself to be right, no matter what he did, and that anyone who opposed him was "wrong." That was rather annoying, but I am glad that he eventually realized the folly of that mindset by the end of the series.



No, he didn't.  That's what was so annoying about the series.  It got worse.  I can't believe I made it as far as I did.  I had some sort of vain hope it was going to recover.  It's like my refusal to stop reading Naruto, even though it's complete crap now.  Maybe there will be some redemption, I keep telling myself.  It's not going to come, I should know that, but I won't accept it. 

On topic:
Daenerys pisses me off.  All through Dance she gets so concerned with trying to figure out how to rule a city so different than anything she'll ever rule in the future, and the first thing she does is make the biggest mistakes she could in destroying their culture and their livelihood and engaging in a war with all of her neighbors.  She has the support and the means to leave for Westeros, but never does.  And despite the fact that she is supposedly going to spend most of her remaining days ruling the Seven Kingdoms, she invests heavily enough in this shitty city that doesn't want her that she actually consents to marriage with one of it's lords.  As if Westeros will be so accepting on the whiny bitch who can't live without the fighting pits.  It's not as if he'll go with you to Westeros, and now you don't even have the ability to align yourself via marriage.  Way to give that up for a shitty city that is beyond hope that doesn't want you. 

I can't believe she turned down the offer of the Martells.  I used to think Dany knew what she was doing, but she really is just a girl with no fucking clue.  She has no right to rule kitchen, much less a city, much less a kingdom, much less seven of them.  I hope Aegon is both legit and forces Dany to crawl to him to beg to be allowed to join his cause.  It'd serve her right if Dorne turned their back on her to ally with Aegon.


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## dream (Oct 6, 2011)

> I hope Aegon is both legit and forces Dany to crawl to him to beg to be allowed to join his cause.



I hope for the same thing but I doubt that it's unlikely.  :/


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 6, 2011)

KidTony said:


> the funny thing is, if you made that comment to joffrey himself, he'd likely tie you up and drop an anvil on your face just to be poetic.



Yes, that was one of his traits that I did not like; he was very immature and temperamental, being angered over the least of offenses and seeking disproportionate retribution for them. I found it odd that so many people were apparently accepting him as the king of the realm.



Han Solo said:


> It's weird but I can't really hate Joffrey, I'm just indifferent. Same with Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, Ramsay Bolton, et al. I just cannot get emotionally invested into so overly evil and otherwise shallow characters.
> 
> Now the likes of Tywin Lannister, Littlefinger, etc. They actually piss me off which is why they're also some of my favourite characters.



I am intrigued by your statement, as I myself developed an intense dislike for the first group of characters whom you mentioned (although I also share your feelings for Tywin and Littlefinger), and I would like to know why you consider them to be "shallow." Could you please elaborate on your statement above?

Martryn: I can understand your frustration, as within both this series and other fictional series that I have followed, there have been situations that greatly bothered me, but I have accepted them and continued with the story, so I am certain that you shall be able to do so with Daenerys' situation.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 6, 2011)

Tion said:


> Halfway through Clash of Kings. Nrghhh Joffrey. I literally want to shit an anvil onto your face.





I hate Joffrey. The little punk. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Definitely deserved his hilarious death.


----------



## Nae'blis (Oct 6, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> NOOOuuu Ashara Dayne
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Still not sure what sort of shenanigans went down at the Tower of Joy. I mean, Jaime says that Arthur could have killed all of the (at the time of saying this) kingsgaurd with his left hand while taking a piss with the right. Ned was never a fucking warrior, not enough to compare cocks with Arthur Dayne. Or any of the other six he brought with him to match the protectors Rhaegar left.

But on this topic, I just realised that North men who follow the Old Gods can't be knights. lol


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## Suigetsu (Oct 6, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Still not sure what sort of shenanigans went down at the Tower of Joy. I mean, Jaime says that Arthur could have killed all of the (at the time of saying this) kingsgaurd with his left hand while taking a piss with the right. Ned was never a fucking warrior, not enough to compare cocks with Arthur Dayne. Or any of the other six he brought with him to match the protectors Rhaegar left.
> 
> But on this topic, I just realised that North men who follow the Old Gods can't be knights. lol



Sir Arthur Dayne was really that awesome, how the fck did he die then? Also fking Eddard should had married Ashara instead of Catelyn cruelty bitch.

BTW fKING Daenerys pisses me off, she is so fcking naive and so fcking slut. Seriously it's retarded what she is doing. She wants to feed dyin people with a fucking pest while her own guys are in the need of food.

BTW If Aegon married Sansa stark and impregnated her, then the lords of the north would have to answer to him right?


----------



## Fierce (Oct 6, 2011)

Ned said he would have died if not for Howland Reed.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 6, 2011)

Ah, Howland Reed. A man who holds a lot of cards and answers for Jon. I'd love for a flashback to what went down at the Tower of Joy.

Catelyn wasn't cruel bitch overall, by the way. She was a mean bitch to Jon, to be sure, but that was because he was a walking reminder of Ned's infidelity, and she perceived him as a threat to Robb's inheritance, however misplaced. Other than Jon, she wasn't that bad. I can understand that now.


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## The Imp (Oct 6, 2011)

Jaime's statement didn't mean that Dayne could defeat the entire Kingsguard by himself, he just outclassed all of them individually. Also, Ned and his bros weren't chumps. With 7:3 odds and Howland Reed having magic powers, it's not that big of a surprise that Dayne, Hightower and the other KG were killed.


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## Parallax (Oct 6, 2011)

Yeah Cat wasn't really that bad of a character.  Way better than Cersei for sure


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## Fierce (Oct 6, 2011)

Cersei and Catelyn both made great decisions as mothers, that were simultaneously awful decisions relative to the game.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 6, 2011)

Only Cersei is vile.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 6, 2011)

When I hear the word _vile_, I think Ramsay Snow and Gregor Clegane.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 6, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> When I hear the word _vile_, I think Ramsay Snow and Gregor Clegane.



Okay, really evil? Royally screwed up? Twisted? Which one is better?


----------



## Suigetsu (Oct 6, 2011)

Parallax said:


> Yeah Cat wasn't really that bad of a character.  Way better than Cersei for sure



WAAAAAY Better than Cersei. Cersei is the worst. Cersei was too ambitious and stupid, just plain stupid.

So Reed went hax and played dirty vs Arthur Dayne ehh?


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## dream (Oct 6, 2011)

> So Reed went hax and played dirty vs Arthur Dayne ehh?



Perhaps, hopefully we'll get a flashback of what happens in the next book...


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## Terra Branford (Oct 6, 2011)

How disappointed would you guys be if Martin killed off Jon Snow in the new book? Would you stop reading? I only asked because a few people who read and watch the show that I talk to, say that Jon Snow is their favorite and that without him, they wouldn't even bother reading/watching. So I was interested in seeing what you guys would do. 

EDIT:
I just realized the massive messup I made.


----------



## Suigetsu (Oct 6, 2011)

Well I wouldnt stop reading but I would be very, very disappointed. BTW He is Jon Dayne/Targa.
I like him in the book, but I just dont like him in the TV show.


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## dream (Oct 6, 2011)

> How disappointed would you guys be if Martin killed off Jon Stark in the new book?



Disappointed?  I would rage for a while but I'll still finish the series.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

I just realized a big messup in my post.  

@Suigetsu:
I don't like him in the TV series either. I wouldn't stop reading either, but I seem to meet a lot of his fans that would put the book down or stop watching if he died, so I was curious.

@Eternal Goob:
Oh, alright. xD


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## dream (Oct 7, 2011)

I mean, Jon is practically the only person that I can really root for besides Jaime/Tyrion.  :/ Losing him would suck.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

Eternal Goob said:


> I mean, Jon is practically the only person that I can really root for besides Jaime/Tyrion.  :/ Losing him would suck.



I understand perfectly. Its how I feel about Arya and Tyrion; if something were to happen to them, I think I would feint and then wake up and cry. The 
*Spoiler*: __ 



chapter that made it seemed like Arya died filled me with so much rage that I didn't know what to do.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 7, 2011)

what do you think has become of Edric storm? Did Sansa heard of him? or was that just a friend saying that?

Also what is the title of the next book? I know it wont come out till like in 4 years or something.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

I don't know anything concerning the next book, so unfortunately I cannot answer this. :sweat


----------



## Fierce (Oct 7, 2011)

I just can't buy Jon actually being dead. Not ever since I bought into R+L=J the first time I read the theory. It takes a lot to convince me someone is dead in this series anymore, what with people constantly being healed from generally fatal wounds/being brought back from the dead.


----------



## dream (Oct 7, 2011)

> Also what is the title of the next book?



The Winds of Winter


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## abcd (Oct 7, 2011)

Eternal Goob said:


> The Winds of Winter


----------



## Han Solo (Oct 7, 2011)

Stannis/Davos/Melisandre, Brienne, Jon and Sansa are probably the only characters I'm actively rooting for but it's hardly my full list of my favourite characters. I don't root for douchebags and some characters I like don't have the necessary conflict for me to be so actively interested.

And while I've never quite liked Catelyn, I never got the hate for her either. She was shit to Jon and she released Jaime but that's about it. If Robb had actually listened to her advice he'd still be alive and the North wouldn't be in chaos. People like to list her mistakes but never how correct she was in so many other situations that would have gone better if she was in control.


----------



## Shrike (Oct 7, 2011)

Dunno why you guys hate Cat. She was cool. Her dislike to Jon is just one little bad side of her.

Anyway, who said that Ned was never a warrior? He was. Him defeating Arthur was not that unbelievable, especially after he said that Reed helped him. Not to mention, it was 7 vs 3 and only the two of them left alive from there.

I am currently rooting for Jaime, Jon and Selmy. Not so sure if I can support anyone else at the time. Oh Sansa too. Tyrion kind of disappointed me in this book, and Arya is losing character somewhat.


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## Han Solo (Oct 7, 2011)

Yeah I've not been too big of a fan of Arya or Tyrion in the last two books. Firstly that it really stretches my suspension of disbelief that neither of them have died yet but also that they're character arcs and developmet has stagnated past aSoS. Ayra is going straight physco and I'm kind of buying into Tyrion actually being a little twisted monkey demon by the end.

I'm not quite sure why I never really Catelyn. She was on the ball more often than not politically and I never really blamed her for anything other than releasing Jaime. I think her POVs were just a bit too depressing, but what do you expect from someone who lost almost everything they loved. I found her to be one of the best developed and truly human characters at any rate and her desire for peace and her family resonated more for me than the North's revenge.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 7, 2011)

Meeh.... Rob should had married Margaret and then the Lanisters would had been fcked up most likely.
Btw I have always wondered, how the heck does George know so much about sexual stuff? 0_o, how he fking describes it and crap it's hilarious but at the same time I wonder... that pervy old man.


----------



## dream (Oct 7, 2011)

> Btw I have always wondered, how the heck does George know so much about sexual stuff? 0_o, how he fking describes it and crap it's hilarious but at the same time I wonder... that pervy old man.



We probably reads up quite a bit about sex on the internet.  Or he knows someone that is knowledgeable on the subject.


----------



## martryn (Oct 7, 2011)

I support Dorne and the North.  Most recent book made me support Jon.  And I've always been fond of Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime, and Sansa.  I sorta want to see Varys' plans come into fruition.  And the I'm hoping Aegon beats out Dany as Targ #1.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 7, 2011)

I've always been a fan of Varys and now that he's coming back with a vengenance, I'm just beside myself.
And the prospect of reading more about Littlefinger next book is putting me over the edge.





Suigetsu said:


> Btw I have always wondered, how the heck does George know so much about sexual stuff? 0_o, how he fking describes it and crap it's hilarious but at the same time I wonder... that pervy old man.





Eternal Goob said:


> We probably reads up quite a bit about sex on the internet.  Or he knows someone that is knowledgeable on the subject.


You don't think he has any groupies desperate enough to suckle pizza and hamburger grease off his nipples.



Oh, God!  What did I just write?


----------



## FitzChivalry (Oct 7, 2011)

It's hard not to support the North, given the heavy blows they've taken, starting with Ned Stark's head being severed off. And maybe they're best hope is further up north, dying from stab wounds. To be sure, he's going to survive. Jon's chapters were good reads. Boy did he have to deal with a lot. I liked the overarching theme to his chapters, which saw him wrestling with his loyalties. Is he a Brother or a Stark? And we know what he chose. Biggest high in the series followed by the biggest low. Fucking Martin. Haha.

Theon's chapters were great; perhaps the best POV chapters. They certainly shit on Dany's.

Catelyn releasing Jaime was one of the more interesting things any character's done in the series, in my opinion. You just knew the fallout would be awesome and cool things were going to take place as a result. It certainly made Jaime's chapters that much more interesting.



Terra Branford said:


> I just realized a big messup in my post.


You didn't mess up.  That's what will happen, even if I'm the only one who believes it.


----------



## dream (Oct 7, 2011)

> You don't think he has any groupies desperate enough to suckle pizza and hamburger grease off his nipples.



If he was a bit younger it might have been a possibility...


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 7, 2011)

Eternal Goob said:


> If he was a bit younger it might have been a possibility...


Of course, he could just buy them like Yezzan zo Qaggaz.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 7, 2011)

One of the many Meereeneenseeene names I either don't remember or mix up with another.

Pretty sure I spelled a word wrong in there.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 7, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> One of the many *Meereeneenseeene* names I either don't remember or mix up with another.


Yunkai, thank you very much.

The "Yellow Whale." The former owner of Tyrion&Co.


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## dream (Oct 7, 2011)

Doctor Crane said:


> Of course, he could just buy them like Yezzan zo Qaggaz.



He would probably like spending that money on food instead.


----------



## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

> Dunno why you guys hate Cat. She was cool. Her dislike to Jon is just one little bad side of her.
> 
> Anyway, who said that Ned was never a warrior? He was. Him defeating Arthur was not that unbelievable, especially after he said that Reed helped him. Not to mention, it was 7 vs 3 and only the two of them left alive from there.
> 
> I am currently rooting for Jaime, Jon and Selmy. Not so sure if I can support anyone else at the time. Oh Sansa too. Tyrion kind of disappointed me in this book, *and Arya is losing character somewhat.*



I don't hate Cat, I like her very much. I just think she made some mistakes, is all, one of them hating Jon. Not his fault afterall. 

What!?  Its just 'cause she hasn't gotten enough chapters recently. 



Jon Stark said:


> You didn't mess up.  That's what will happen, even if I'm the only one who believes it.



My sister believes (or maybe hopes) it **.


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## Parallax (Oct 7, 2011)

Arya is still a great character I don't know what some of you are talking about.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

Parallax said:


> Arya is still a great character I don't know what some of you are talking about.



I don't think there is anything wrong with her character, even recently -- I love her character. She's my absolute favorite in the series. xD


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## The Imp (Oct 7, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> It's hard not to support the North, given the heavy blows they've taken, starting with Ned Stark's head being severed off. And maybe they're best hope is further up north, dying from stab wounds. To be sure, he's going to survive. Jon's chapters were good reads. Boy did he have to deal with a lot. I liked the overarching theme to his chapters, which saw him wrestling with his loyalties. Is he a Brother or a Stark? And we know what he chose. Biggest high in the series followed by the biggest low. Fucking Martin. Haha.



He's been wrestling with this problem since the first book. I liked it more when he chose his brothers over the Starks at the end of AGoT (his final scene in the TV show was great) and ASoS. After he decided to become Lord Commander I was hoping his identity issues would be put on the back burner but I guess they will plague him till the day he finds out who his parents really were.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 7, 2011)

The Imp said:


> He's been wrestling with this problem since the first book. I liked it more when he chose his brothers over the Starks at the end of AGoT (his final scene in the TV show was great) and ASoS. After he decided to become Lord Commander I was hoping his identity issues would be put on the back burner but I guess they will plague him till the day he finds out who his parents really were.


'Tis true. You're right about most of that. But finding out about his parents won't put much to rest. That'll just confuse everything more. "Gods, Rhaegar was mine father? And Lyanna Stark my mother? My fath--_uncle _Eddard Stark bent his honor, claimed me as his own son, and lied to everyone else?" Then he'll realize the small but major part he had in Robert's Rebellion. He was the product of a love that saw a ton of people die because of it (the Rhaegar/Lyanna thing, not so much the bastard son born from it). The only thing forever evident in Jon is that he's a northman. Ice and cold and the blood of the direwolf are in his genes. Learning he has Targaryen blood won't change that.

What you're spot on with was how long the loyalty/allegiance issued has sort of plagued him. In the fifth book it was stronger than ever though, which came as somewhat of a surprise to me, given that he was the Lord Commander and it looked like he was settling into his role as leader there. When he was struggling between Stark and Crow in the first couple of books, before he was elected as Lord Commander, that struggle was to be expected. There were a lot of things tugging at him from both sides. I thought being in the LC position he was, the issue was more or less behind him. But when push came to shove in _Dance_, he consistently chose family and loyalty to the Winterfell and the Starks over the Watch. You know the deal. Though Stannis forced him to help, Jon went beyond the call of duty several times, and it gave Jon satisfaction to strategize against the Boltons that murdered his brother and occupied his former home of Winterfell. He helped Alys Karstark when his vows should have forced him to send her away. They Watch takes no part. There was the search for Arys ("She's my sister. Dammit, she's not my sister. She IS my sister. Fuck, no she's not! Damn you Red Woman, WHERE'S MY SISTER?" In a nutshell.)

But when he was resolved to risk _breaking his vows_ (a child of Ned Stark? Never) to ride to Winterfell to confront Ramsay, that's when he was officially done with the Watch. Those were some good chapters.


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## Parallax (Oct 7, 2011)

more like redundant


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## Suigetsu (Oct 7, 2011)

So you think that Jon it's a goner?
I said it once and I said it again, if Aegon wants the north, he will need to get sansa stark and into her panties. After that the North will have to bend the knee or he could  have it's allegiance.
But then again, there is rickon in the cannibal island and brandon which is in a hole in the ground in the middle of nowhere. 

Oh man next book  it's gonna take a helluva time to come out isnt?


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## The Imp (Oct 7, 2011)

Lmao Aegon will be dead before he can even think of conquering the North.


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## dream (Oct 7, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Lmao Aegon will be dead before he can even think of conquering the North.



With Martin anything may be possible, Aegon could possibly conquer the North.  

Though it is very unlikely.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 8, 2011)

Aegon's rash. That will get him killed. He's acting like more a knight and less a would-be monarch. I'm not even convinced he is who they say he is. Nobody can conquer the north, not with the turmoil up there. Only one with Stark blood can calm things up there.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 8, 2011)

Despite all of Varys' talk about how Aegon actually deserves to be king because he lived among the people and is capable of serving them,he seems to be quite the spoiled brat,and not very intelligent.Look at the scene where he and Tyrion are playing chess(or whatever it's called,Cy-something).


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## Shrike (Oct 8, 2011)

Aegon is as good as dead. I thought that quite obvious. Maybe I am wrong. The North won't calm until Stark resides in Winterfell again and Boltons are skinned alive.


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## Parallax (Oct 8, 2011)

good thing there's like 3 or 4 of them running around


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 8, 2011)

I wouldn't say Aegon was spoiled as much as he was entitled. He was probably doing all the things Varys described to Ser Kevan, but he also probably had Jon Connington and Varys and everybody else who knew his identity telling him the throne is his birthright, and he was the rightful ruler. Sansa earlier in the series acted more spoiled.

I wouldn't hold Aegon getting owned by Tyrion in area of intelligence against. Tyrion has top tier intellect. Aegon's just a boy.


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## martryn (Oct 8, 2011)

Seriously, Argon is what?  Like barely 15 or 16.  He was an infant during Robert's Rebellion, which was 15 or 16 years before the series started.  He might be closer to 17 now, I guess, as he and Jon are of age.  

Hmmm... I guess holding him up to the standard of Jon Snow is likely a mistake.  He is a little underdeveloped compared to Jon and Robb and others of his age.  Won't stop me from rooting for him as Dany is a complete moron and has lost sight of her purpose.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 8, 2011)

eh Jon. Why do people like that guy again? I never understood.

Still want Aegon to be the leading Targaryen, Daenerys is just making me smh in disgust.


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## The Imp (Oct 8, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> eh Jon. Why do people like that guy again? I never understood.
> 
> Still want Aegon to be the leading Targaryen, Daenerys is just making me smh in disgust.



Probably because he's the closest thing to a standard fantasy hero. I don't hate him or like him, he's okay. But he's the major POV at the Wall and Beyond. His setting makes his chapters more interesting.


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## Shrike (Oct 8, 2011)

I don't like Jon that much, but in the last book he became somewhat better then before for me, not sure why. Maybe for the awesome as fuck decapitation? Anyway, he is wise for a 15-16 year old kid, and his chapters are on the motherfucking Wall, the most boss place in the whole series (and beyond). As The Imp stated, it's the setting that makes him better.

Daenerys on the other hand I don't like at all. She was okay to a degree before the half of this last book. The other half of the Dance destroyed her character completely for me. I am simply too bored with her.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 9, 2011)

To me, Jon did three things that I liked: 

1) Found a barely passable loophole in his promise to Stannis by sending Val away to retrieve Tormund. That's something Ned Stark would never have done, which I liked. He's honorable, but not a Ned Stark clone. It's the more honorable characters that usually annoy me most. They often can't get out of their own way.
2) The beheading of Janos Slynt. No need to explain here.
3) Risked breaking his oath when he was resolved to ride off to Winterfell. Why? It was awesome. Would Ned Stark have done that? Barristan? Stannis? It paints Jon as a _person_ when he does things like that, and makes him a better character.


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## martryn (Oct 9, 2011)

> eh Jon. Why do people like that guy again? I never understood.



He's the young underdog.  He looked like he got shit on, but pulled through alright (barring most recent events).  And his chapters are fun.  I don't like him too much myself.  He's an alright character.



> Still want Aegon to be the leading Targaryen, Daenerys is just making me smh in disgust.



My sentiments exactly. 



> To me, Jon did three things that I liked:



A little biased in your analysis, surely, but I can't say I disagree with you.  I prefer other Wall characters, but all of those have left the Wall, so...  Go Jon?


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## Parallax (Oct 9, 2011)

Yeah I like Jon for the most part, I still like him during book 5 but man did it get a bit annoying


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 9, 2011)

Dolorous Edd>Jon.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 9, 2011)

> *A little biased in your analysis*, surely, but I can't say I disagree with you. I prefer other Wall characters, but all of those have left the Wall, so... Go Jon?


Oh, most certainly. 

The Wall was littered with good characters, but those have been significantly reduced. I'm glad he made some strides in character, however small or big. At least people aren't feeling like he totally regressed like Dany. That girl's been verbally eviscerated, and I can't even defend her chapters. The decent part about those were the Barristan POVs.


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## Han Solo (Oct 9, 2011)

aDwD is the reason I actually started liking Jon. He was okay before but I did think he was pretty boring aswell tbh.


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## Cyphon (Oct 9, 2011)

Anyone here think there was a purpose to how Martin portrayed Daenerys? Obviously there is a purpose to everything he writes but what I mean is he wanted readers to hate her so that her rise and comeback in the next book or 2 looks all the more magnificent.

Like she went through her shit phase where she was indecisive and a bumbling little girl and now she will come back as a hardened queen riding on her high horse dragon. 

That is assuming he works it that way but do you think that may be what he wanted?

Anyway Arya is the best female in the series. Youngest and most badass of the bunch.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't want to start a flame war of any sorts. I respect if everyone likes Jon and I don't. But the fucking sullen cunt is annoying. Theon was right in that regard. I liked reading his chapters in the first couple of books because I loved when Sam was introduced ("dressed for battle, the new boy looked like an overcooked sausaeg about to burst its skin") and everyone else around his was fun to read. But Jon himself is an annoying entitled cunt.

I still like the idea that he is Rhaegar's son, but I wouldn't care if he is dead for real. I appreciate the fact that he is the only POV at the Wall so it wont happen. And I did start hating Lady Stark or Lady Stoneheart or Lady Bitch on his behalf though.


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## Han Solo (Oct 9, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> But Jon himself is an annoying entitled cunt.



That's exactly what his devlopment through the first 3 books is about though I'd say. He goes from an entitled and whiny 14 year old child to a fairly mature and responsible 16 year old man. So I'd agree at the start of aSoIaF, but not anymore.


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## masamune1 (Oct 9, 2011)

Entitled? Really? That's never been my impression of him at all. Just the opposite, really; he always strikes me as a guy who keeps having authority and responsiblity thrust upon him, despite his own misgivings and desire for a much more straightforward life. 

He didn't want to be Lord Commander, but he is; he didn't want to be King, but the chance is there; he didn't want to be the leader in a war, but there you go. All he's ever really wanted is to be accepted, as a Stark, as a member of the Watch, as a whatever. I don't know where this entitled thing is coming from.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 9, 2011)

At least for the first two books, Jon _did_ feel a sense of entitlement in the Night's Watch. I can't deny what was plainly written. Jon thought he was better than everyone else. And to be honest, he was for the most part, but he hadn't earned his stripes there or paid his dues yet. He was a bastard and was never made to feel like part of the family, but he was raised pretty well and was afforded opportunities. The Watch, on the other hand, was filled with criminals and cutthroats, with a few honorable men sprinkled in.

I will agree with the notion that he never expected to have authority or be leader. And why would he? Bastards aren't prone to thinking like that, not unless you're a Blackfyre or Ramsay Snow/Bolton (Snowbolt?). He's proven to be a damn good leader, as was Robb (Ned Stark raised some sharp boys). He's always wanted Winterfell, though, and still does. All he did when enlisting in the Watch was add a goal, which is to stop the dead. If he sat at Winterfell, he could still do that. Precedent's already been set, but I digress.


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## Parallax (Oct 9, 2011)

I agree with that

Jon won me over in ASOS, especially at the end.


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## masamune1 (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't think he thought he was better; at least, if he did, it was as much due to the way he was treated as anything else, since most of those criminals and cutthroats treated him like crap before he had a chance to put himself above them, basically assuming thats how he felt from the beginning. Though I'll concede its been a while since I read the first book


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## Cyphon (Oct 9, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> I don't think he thought he was better; at least, if he did, it was as much due to the way he was treated as anything else, since most of those criminals and cutthroats treated him like crap before he had a chance to put himself above them, basically assuming thats how he felt from the beginning. Though I'll concede its been a while since I read the first book



Pretty sure he directly said he was better than them and stuff. I believe Tyrion was still there and the 3 guys or whatever were going to jump Jon. 

My memory of it is fuzzy.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 9, 2011)

I didn't like Jon much when I first read the series. I didn't hate him, I just wasn't very interested in him much (maybe the show made me feel that way *watched before I read*). But a second read through the series (just started the recent book again) made me like him a lot more.

I use to think he was kinda annoying. :sweat



Cyphon said:


> Anyway Arya is the best female in the series. Youngest and most badass of the bunch.



Definitely.


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## Parallax (Oct 9, 2011)

it's weird cause I really like Arya and her story a lot, but I don't think she's a badass

she's just a poor child who's been stretched to her limit.


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## The Imp (Oct 10, 2011)

Arya's probably one of the most likeable characters in the story, but I prefer Sansa's development in Storm and Feast. And the Sansa/Littlefinger interactions are a plus.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 10, 2011)

I found Sansa's chapters in A Game of Thrones to be almost intolerable. (those were my initial feelings as a teen reading them; maybe I'll feel differently on a future re-read). Her chapters got much better after Ned had his head lopped off. The lifting of the veil, the romantic notions of her hero Joffrey destroyed, and the reality hitting her full on in the face. Then she started being insolent and talking shit, and she almost started becoming a woman after my own heart. I'd really like to know what she and Littlefinger are up to. Winterfell's situation is in such disarray right now.


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## Felix (Oct 10, 2011)

So yesterday I was thinking:

When Bran (if he does) becomes the Green Seer, Summer will die. It will mark his departure from the Stark family and as such, Summer will die somehow

It will also by a symbolic death, Summer has ended, Winter has finally settled down


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 10, 2011)

I think all of the Stark children,despite the roads they've taken,will keep some kind of 'anchor' to their previous identities and lives.Arya is well on her way to becoming 'no one',yet she stashed Needle.
I expect something similar with Sansa,Bran and Rickon.


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## Adagio (Oct 10, 2011)

Felix said:


> So yesterday I was thinking:
> 
> When Bran (if he does) becomes the Green Seer, Summer will die. It will mark his departure from the Stark family and as such, Summer will die somehow
> 
> It will also by a symbolic death, Summer has ended, Winter has finally settled down



That sounds believable and awesome yet I still don't want it to happen.


----------



## The Imp (Oct 10, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> I found Sansa's chapters in A Game of Thrones to be almost intolerable. (those were my initial feelings as a teen reading them; maybe I'll feel differently on a future re-read). Her chapters got much better after Ned had his head lopped off. The lifting of the veil, the romantic notions of her hero Joffrey destroyed, and the reality hitting her full on in the face. Then she started being insolent and talking shit, and she almost started becoming a woman after my own heart. I'd really like to know what she and Littlefinger are up to. Winterfell's situation is in such disarray right now.



I hated her in AGoT. Pitied her but still didn't like her in ACoK. Started warming up to her at the end of Clash and beginning of Storm, but when she built the Winterfell snowcastle at the Eyrie, I really started liking her.


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## Cyphon (Oct 10, 2011)

Parallax said:


> it's weird cause I really like Arya and her story a lot, but I don't think she's a badass
> 
> she's just a poor child who's been stretched to her limit.



Even relatively? I mean obviously she is no Hound, but for being a young female I would say she is badass. Whipped Joffrey and threw his sword in the water, killed and sent an assassin after people and the stunt she pulled on J'aqen (Not sure how you spell it but damn I don't remembe) when she almost had him kill himself......

Loved it.


Oh, and I don't think there has ever been a time I liked Sansa or hearing anything about her. Nowhere from the first book to the last. Her chapters are some of the most boring for me and I could really care less what her and Littlefinger are doing. She needs to live out a Romeo and Juliet style tragedy with Littlefinger off panel.


----------



## Parallax (Oct 10, 2011)

but there is no Romeo and Juliet subtext going on at all...

Sansa's latter chapters are pretty interesting and I'm really looking forward to see all of Littlefinger's plans in the North going full head.


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## martryn (Oct 10, 2011)

> I think all of the Stark children,despite the roads they've taken,will keep some kind of 'anchor' to their previous identities and lives.Arya is well on her way to becoming 'no one',yet she stashed Needle.
> I expect something similar with Sansa,Bran and Rickon.



What could Sansa's possibly be, though?  She lost her direwolf, didn't get along with her father, and is currently shacked up with a man who is associated with her mother's side of the family.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 10, 2011)

martryn said:


> What could Sansa's possibly be, though?  She lost her direwolf, didn't get along with her father, and is currently shacked up with a man who is associated with her mother's side of the family.



Do not forget that everyone that crosses path's with her is harassing her sexually. I really hope little finger dies a painful death, that friend.

And I want to see a Dayne chapter, with Darkstar fighting sir ballon swam and beheading him. If he considers the equal of sir arthur dayne, then sir ballon is royally screwed up.


----------



## martryn (Oct 10, 2011)

> And I want to see a Dayne chapter, with Darkstar fighting sir ballon swam and beheading him. If he considers the equal of sir arthur dayne, then sir ballon is royally screwed up.



Sir Balon would likely just stick an arrow into him from a distance.  That's what he's good at. 



> Do not forget that everyone that crosses path's with her is harassing her sexually. I really hope little finger dies a painful death, that friend.



I wonder if Littlefinger has stuck his "little finger" in her.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Oct 10, 2011)

martryn said:


> What could Sansa's possibly be, though?  She lost her direwolf, didn't get along with her father, and is currently shacked up with a man who is associated with her mother's side of the family.



Oh, and that same guy sort of betrayed her father and served him up to Cersei, ultimately sealing Ned Stark's fate. There is that. Though I guess chances of bedding young Sansa would drop precipitously for him if he told her, so chances of Mr. Baelish volunteering such information to her are pretty low.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 10, 2011)

I hope sansa does not mix with that treasonous fck, if she did then she will be a complete traitor to the Starks. Like I said, Aegon better get her first in order to bind the north unto his will. Or she should go with edrick storm which... I think doesnt seem that likely.


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## martryn (Oct 10, 2011)

All I can say is...
REMEMBER PODRICK PAYNE!

Should start a movement for this little guy.  Dealt the shittiest hand in the fucking story.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 10, 2011)

How can Sansa be a traitor if she has no idea of the role Littlefinger played in her father's downfall? From her perspective, he's been a reliable friend and protector to her, who wants to restore her home to her. If she knowingly consorted with him with full knowledge of his past deed involving Ned Stark, hang her for it then.

Don't remember Podrick Payne. Never fear, one Google search later and I find myself with memories of him refreshed, and dear God that boy's been dealt a shitty hand. Best of luck and fortune to that one, because he damn sure needs and deserves it.


----------



## Terra Branford (Oct 10, 2011)

I too hope she doesn't mix with LittleFinger. I would feel really, really sorry for her. Whether or not she finds out about his involvement...that would really seal her character for me, and most likely not in a good light. :sweat


----------



## Nae'blis (Oct 11, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> Do not forget that everyone that crosses path's with her is harassing her sexually. I really hope little finger dies a painful death, that friend..


which are these?


----------



## The Imp (Oct 11, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> which are these?



I'm guessing the Hound, Ser Dontos and Littlefinger. Maybe Tyrion too, but he was legally married to her so idk if that counts.


----------



## Suigetsu (Oct 11, 2011)

The Imp said:


> I'm guessing the Hound, Ser Dontos and Littlefinger. Maybe Tyrion too, but he was legally married to her so idk if that counts.



Even her small cousint, little lord arryn...


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Oct 12, 2011)

I find it to be terribly unfortunate that nearly all of the surviving Stark children seem to be experiencing identity crises and losing their connection to their house of birth, especially when not many other characters seem to have such problems.

On that subject, I have been wondering something about Jaime. Jaime and his sister, Cersei, shared a strong love, but, because they were siblings, such a relationship would have been treated with great hostility and intolerance by their society, so they needed to keep their relationship a secret. I imagine that that created great tension for the two of them, and that that tension became worse when Cersei was married to Robert. For years, Jaime had to stand by silently, not speaking and not objecting as Cersei acted as Robert's wife, and I can imagine that the tension became even greater still when Cersei had Jaime's children, and Robert raised them as his own. Jaime could not reveal that he was their father, for fear of being socially ostracized, yet he expressed tension in _A Feast for Crows_ when he came face-to-face with Tommen after Joffrey's death. Joffrey's relationship with Robert was hardly a typical loving parent-child relationship, yet Joffrey believed that Robert was his father, and never learned that Jaime was his true father, and now, Tommen and Myrcella, who are younger than Joffrey, have no father figure in their lives.

I wonder what Jaime shall do; while he seems to have fallen out of love with Cersei, he has shown that he wishes that he could reveal himself as Tommen and Myrella's father, and for them to accept him as such, but he still worries about the consequences of such a revelation. What does everyone else have to say? Do you imagine that Jaime experienced great tension and frustration over his and Cersei's inability to openly display their relationship, watching Cersei marry another man, that man raise Jaime's children as his own, and his inability to be a father to those children when Robert was not able to be? And do you believe that, before the end of the series, Jaime shall decide that he does not wish to deceive anyone any further and openly confess that he is the father of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen, regardless of the consequences? I certainly hope so, as I do not like seeing either deception or characters suffering from internal strife, and Jaime's deception is clearly causing him internal strife.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 13, 2011)

Jaime's wanted to come clean about his relationship to Cersei for years, if I'm remembering right. He reiterated that desire in Feast, but Cersei refused for what seemed like the thousandth time. I don't think Jaime gave a fraction of a damn for Joffrey, not the little asshole who deserved the poison he got. I don't know if he ever felt differently about him in another time, but there was a part in Storm or Feast where he though if given the option between getting his hand or Joffrey back, he'd go with his hand. Cersei was a mother that corrupted him. That's why Jaime tried sending Tommen away from her, to prevent her from doing the same to him.

Beyond all that, it's hard to say. He wanted to tell everyone about his relationship with Cersei back when she was all he thought about. Now that he's become all disillusioned about her, I'm not sure how much he cares to divulge the details of their past relations. He still loves his other kids though, and might think they deserve to know the truth, or maybe not, since revealing that could hurt them more than help.


----------



## Suigetsu (Oct 13, 2011)

I do hope that he can say it and take Tommen to casterly rock where he could raise him in peace.
He has become quite humble, whent from a complete arrogant ass to a humble char. Dont you think?


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## Fierce (Oct 13, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> He has become quite humble, *whent* from a complete arrogant ass to a humble char.



Pun intended?


----------



## FitzChivalry (Oct 13, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> I do hope that he can say it and take Tommen to casterly rock where he could raise him in peace.
> He has become quite humble, whent from a complete arrogant ass to a humble char. Dont you think?



He's already close to Tommen as his Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, guarding Tommen, who sits on the Iron Throne. Well, not close _recently_, as he's away on the Riverlands. He's Mr. Vows now anyway. Kingsguard members hold no lands, so he'll stay true to that. Casterly Rock is Tyrion's by law. It was his the moment Jaime took his vows.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 13, 2011)

Jon Stark, your comment about Cersei influencing Joffrey made me think of something: both Tyrion and Jaime wish to prevent Cersei from influencing Tommen as she did Joffrey, and Cersei herself wished to prevent Margaery from influencing Tommen. Therefore, I have two questions: first, do you believe that Cersei's fears that Margaery was influencing Tommen were justified; and second: does anyone find it to be ironic that Cersei sought to prevent Margaery from influencing Tommen, when she herself was attempting to do the same thing?

As for Tommen himself, I believe that both Cersei and Margaery are hazardous to his well-being, so I hope that he is soon removed from their presence, and that both he and Myrcella are transferred into the care of someone who is genuinely concerned for their well-being. Jaime is the most logical choice, but his position usually makes him very busy, so he may not be capable of constantly being present for his son and daughter.


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## The Imp (Oct 14, 2011)

Don't worry, Tommen will be taken away from Cersei and Margaery when he gets his throat slit.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 14, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Don't worry, Tommen will be taken away from Cersei and Margaery when he gets his throat slit.



Do you believe that Tommen may die? That is a very pessimistic viewpoint to have, in my mind.


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## Parallax (Oct 14, 2011)

but realistic


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 14, 2011)

No Tyrell is on good terms with a Lannister, so while Cersei overdid it with her paranoia, I can see why she'd want to keep Margaery away from her son. Still, the idea of a mom keeping a husband away from his wife sounds ridiculous.


DemonDragonJ said:


> Do you believe that Tommen may die? That is a very *pessimistic *viewpoint to have, in my mind.



He knows what kind of somber-ass series he's reading. Tommen's going to die. Children aren't spared in these books, and Tommen's sitting in a very precarious position. Crafty, dangerous people want that Iron Throne.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 15, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> No Tyrell is on good terms with a Lannister, so while Cersei overdid it with her paranoia, I can see why she'd want to keep Margaery away from her son. Still, the idea of a mom keeping a husband away from his wife sounds ridiculous.



First, Tommen's marriage to Margaery was arranged by their families, so Tommen had no voice in the decision. Second, Tommen is only eight years old, far too young to be married, in my opinion, as he is still a child and has yet to learn proper responsibility.



Jon Stark said:


> He knows what kind of somber-ass series he's reading. Tommen's going to die. Children aren't spared in these books, and Tommen's sitting in a very precarious position. Crafty, dangerous people want that Iron Throne.



Yes, but I am worried that, with the younger members of House Lannister in danger (Joffrey is already dead, and Tommen is vulnerable, as well), there shall be no one to continue their bloodline, and it shall die out. Lancel is young, but he does not seem to have any interest in having children at the present time of the story. I simply do not like to see a bloodline end (the Starks and Targaryens are prime examples, as well); that is a terrible tragedy, in my mind.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 15, 2011)

I think the Lannisters are quite an extensive family,with additional junior branches in Lannisport.Tywin's descendants may all die,but the house will survive.

If any house is going to completely die out it's the Boltons.Though personally I don't want Roose to die.I fucking love that guy.:


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## Parallax (Oct 15, 2011)

yeah the line will live

but not the Tywin branch I think 

but fuck em half of them suck


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 15, 2011)

Parallax said:


> yeah the line will live
> 
> but not the Tywin branch I think
> 
> but fuck em half of them suck



To whom, specifically, are you referring, and how do they "suck," as you phrase it?


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## Parallax (Oct 16, 2011)

The Lannisters

Cersei and her brood suck

I like Jaime and Tyrion though


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## martryn (Oct 16, 2011)

I feel sorry for poor Quentyn Martell.  He shouldn't have thought about heroes in stories.  Foreshadowing.  Heavy foreshadowing, with that.  How it was going to end.  Loved that chapter, but it's hard to reread.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 16, 2011)

To be truthful,I found it a bit funny.


> When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.
> 
> _Oh_, he thought. Then he began to scream.


:rofl
Martin has a sick sense of humor.Or maybe I do.Either way,I couldn't help but chuckle at that scene.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 16, 2011)

Parallax said:


> The Lannisters
> 
> Cersei and her brood suck
> 
> I like Jaime and Tyrion though



In my mind, only Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey were evil or at least very nasty, leaving Jaime, Tyrion, Tommen, Myrcella, Kevan, and Lancel, all very decent people, in House Lannister, although Kevan is now almost certainly dead, it does not seem as if Jaime, Tyrion, or Lancel shall continue its bloodline, and Tommen and Myrcella are in danger of being killed, so I wonder who shall remain to continue the house's bloodline.



martryn said:


> I feel sorry for poor Quentyn Martell.  He shouldn't have thought about heroes in stories.  Foreshadowing.  Heavy foreshadowing, with that.  How it was going to end.  Loved that chapter, but it's hard to reread.



Yes, I did find Quentyn's death to be very tragic, as well. By that point in the series, I was not terribly surprised that he died, but I still found it to be terribly tragic nevertheless.


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## The Imp (Oct 17, 2011)

I think there is a sub branch of the main house, the Lannisters of Lannisport, and we also met Jaime's cousin in AFfC. And I believe Kevan had more than 1 son.


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## Sesha (Oct 17, 2011)

Why care about Tommen and Myrcella anyway? They're kids, sure, they're completely nonexistent as characters.

Also Jaime and Tyrion are a far cry from being "decent" people, sympathetic though they might be in some ways.


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## Parallax (Oct 17, 2011)

Jaime is pretty decent all things considered really.


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## Sesha (Oct 17, 2011)

Yeah, ok. Jaime is in the process of redeeming himself, so in that regard, sure. There's a few moments where he's acts a bit callous, but he's being reasonable about it at the same time.


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## Auron (Oct 17, 2011)

Jamie's been like the biggest good guy in the novels since he got his hand cut off. Rescuing Brianne, sending her off after Sansa, going against Cersei, taking Riverrun with no bloodshed. Guy hasnt done anything evil since like the first book. How many other chars can say that?


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 17, 2011)

Sesha said:


> Why care about Tommen and Myrcella anyway? They're kids, sure, they're completely nonexistent as characters.



Tommen and Myrcella are approximately the same ages as Arya and Bran, yet Arya and Bran are far from being "nonexistent" in this story.



Auron said:


> Jamie's been like the biggest good guy in the novels since he got his hand cut off. Rescuing Brianne, sending her off after Sansa, going against Cersei, taking Riverrun with no bloodshed. Guy hasnt done anything evil since like the first book. How many other chars can say that?



Jon, Ned, Arya, Sansa, and Bran, (i.e., most of the Stark family) to the best of my knowledge; I do not recall them having committed many deeds that most people would consider to be "evil."


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## Auron (Oct 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Tommen and Myrcella are approximately the same ages as Arya and Bran, yet Arya and Bran are far from being "nonexistent" in this story.
> 
> 
> 
> Jon, Ned, Arya, Sansa, and Bran, (i.e., most of the Stark family) to the best of my knowledge; I do not recall them having committed many deeds that most people would consider to be "evil."



Ehh evil is stretching it but Jamie's pretty much been the most honorable/good character in the last 3 books imo.  Ned's dead so I'm not counting him.  Jon's a good guy but he's done some questionable things since he became lord commander.  Taking away Gilly's kid, sending master Aemon off, going against the Watch....Arya's been running around assassinating people.  And Bran's like 8 years old.  The only really evil kid in the series has been Joffrey and he's the most evil fuck in existence.  I'm mostly talking about adult chars.


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## Fierce (Oct 18, 2011)

Auron said:


> Ehh evil is stretching it but Jamie's pretty much been the most honorable/good character in the last 3 books imo.  Ned's dead so I'm not counting him.  Jon's a good guy but he's done some questionable things since he became lord commander.  Taking away Gilly's kid, sending master Aemon off, going against the Watch....Arya's been running around assassinating people.  And Bran's like 8 years old.  The only really evil kid in the series has been Joffrey and he's the most evil fuck in existence.  I'm mostly talking about adult chars.



How in the world do you figure Jon has done anything that could be construed as evil or malicious? He sent Gilly off with Dalla's baby so Melisandre couldn't sacrifice it for the "king's blood." The same reason he sent away Maester Aemon. He didn't go *against* the Watch, physically, he just intended to break their cardinal rule, by himself. It's against their law, but it wasn't a malicious action. 

Jaime, while a great character, hasn't turned into a shining beacon of honor. He's still threatened a number of people to get his way, he just can't physically act on his threats anymore, so he's forced to be more humble.


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## Parallax (Oct 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Tommen and Myrcella are approximately the same ages as Arya and Bran, yet Arya and Bran are far from being "nonexistent" in this story.



well to be fair Bran and Arya have had their own POV's throughout the series while Tommen and Myrcella have not


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## Auron (Oct 18, 2011)

Fierce said:


> How in the world do you figure Jon has done anything that could be construed as evil or malicious? He sent Gilly off with Dalla's baby so Melisandre couldn't sacrifice it for the "king's blood." The same reason he sent away Maester Aemon. He didn't go *against* the Watch, physically, he just intended to break their cardinal rule, by himself. It's against their law, but it wasn't a malicious action.
> 
> Jaime, while a great character, hasn't turned into a shining beacon of honor. He's still threatened a number of people to get his way, he just can't physically act on his threats anymore, so he's forced to be more humble.



Once again I said evil was too strong a word...but Jon did go against the Watch and break his oath even though he thought it was for a good intention in his mind.  Look at Jamie for example.  He killed Aerys out of good intentions but everyone in the kingdom looks down on him as an oathbreaker.  The Watch has been around for thousands of years a lot longer than the kingsguard so if you look at it objectively  what Jon did is just as bad if not worse.  He's not any more special than the thousands of others who took the oath and were able to keep it all those years no matter how good he thinks his intentions are.


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## Han Solo (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not so sure how much of Jaime's redemption I actually buy. Certainly he's a better person after he got his hand cut off than before but his newfound honour only really applies when he finds it easy to do so.  

And honestly he's still an attempted child murderer anyway. You don't really just get away from that by doing a few good deeds.


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## Auron (Oct 18, 2011)

I think its been honest...what does Jamie have to gain from rescuing Brianne from Vargo or rescuing her again later when she gets locked away and Loras wants to kill her?  What does he have to gain from still carrying out the promise to Caitlyn even though she's dead?  None of his actions have caused any gain to himself at all.  Not to mention he wasn't really that evil to start with.  Throwing Bran off the tower was more of an anomaly for him rather than the norm.  It's not like he went around killing people for fun like Joffrey.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 18, 2011)

Parallax said:


> well to be fair Bran and Arya have had their own POV's throughout the series while Tommen and Myrcella have not



Yes, that is very true, indeed.


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## Tion (Oct 19, 2011)

GODAMMIT WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU CERSEI


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## Terra Branford (Oct 19, 2011)

> Cersei and her brood suck



I agree with this, though Tommen isn't all that bad. 



> GODAMMIT WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU CERSEI


Everything is wrong with her.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 21, 2011)

Auron's mention of Brienne above makes me wonder how she survived being hung and what news she has for Jaime (presuming that that was Brienne and not someone impersonating her). I hope that she is at least somewhat closer to locating Sansa, although that is not likely, as Littlefinger took great care to conceal Sansa's current whereabouts from everyone.



Terra Branford said:


> I agree with this, though Tommen isn't all that bad.



Do not forget that Myrcella is stronger-willed than Tommen, but also kinder and more merciful than Joffrey, so she must be fairly decent, as well.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 21, 2011)

Myrcella and Tommen are fine for the moment because Cersei hasn't had the chance to raise them, and by "raise," I mean "corrupt." She loves her children, to be sure, but that doesn't make her a good mother. Hey Joffrey, how are you doing?


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## Nae'blis (Oct 21, 2011)

Brienne was captured by Lady Stoneheart, and the scene ended before it was clear if she was hanged. Brienne is no where nearer to locating either of the girls since, well, she is with Lady Bitch. And, if I recall correctly, Stoneheart doesn't care about the girls any more. She just wants revenge, and actually told Brienne to kill Jaime or die two books ago.

Littlefinger killed Ser Dontos, the only other person besides himself and the Queen of Thorns who knew what actually happened that night.

Tommon/Myrcella aren't bad at all. Joffrey is just the Aerion to Tommon's Aegon. Funnily enough they both have stories about the older killing the younger ones cat in a sadistic manner.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 21, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> Myrcella and Tommen are fine for the moment because Cersei hasn't had the chance to raise them, and by "raise," I mean "corrupt." She loves her children, to be sure but that doesn't make her a good mother. Hey Joffrey, how are you doing?



That's exactly why I like them for right now; away from the clutches of Cersei. 

Actually, when I read the books, I kinda felt like Cersei didn't really love Tommen...  Just something about her when she was around him I guess.


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## Adagio (Oct 22, 2011)

I got that too, mostly because Cersei scorns weakness and Tommen who was so unlike Joffrey might have given her that impression. Her deep concerns while they might be motherly might have also been because her position depended on Tommen remaining king.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 27, 2011)

After reading the first chapter from Jon's perspective in _A Dance with Dragons,_ I was hoping that Melisandre would make love with him, possibly to produce another shadow creature, as she did with Stannis, to kill Renly, so I was very disappointed when she failed to do so. Was anyone else displeased  by that?


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## Nae'blis (Oct 27, 2011)

You wanted Jon to have sex with a random women he has no connection or feelings with? Jon who considers himself a noble shitwipe like Eddard? lol. And Jon isn't kings blood, at least Mel doesn't think so.

No, I wasn't disappointed, and it's not within Jon's character to do so.


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## Fierce (Oct 27, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I know that such an act would be uncharacteristic for Jon, but he also engaged in sexual relations with Ygritte and was a companion of the Free Folk/Wildlings for some time, so he has acted in an uncharacteristic manner before.



He was ordered to do that by Qhorin Halfhand and by refusing Ygritte, he would have been killed by Mance. He ended up enjoying it (he's a straight teenage guy, of course he would), but he didn't do those things out of desire.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 28, 2011)

Fierce said:


> He was ordered to do that by Qhorin Halfhand and by refusing Ygritte, he would have been killed by Mance. He ended up enjoying it (he's a straight teenage guy, of course he would), but he didn't do those things out of desire.



In that case, what if Melisandre was very forceful with him, using her charm and physical attractiveness to entice him into mating with her?


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## Fierce (Oct 28, 2011)

Jon's stubborn honor has made it apparent that wouldn't work on him.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 28, 2011)

Fierce said:


> Jon's stubborn honor has made it apparent that wouldn't work on him.



Yes, I understand that, and despite my disappointment at him not engaging in sexual activity with Melisandre, I do admire his willpower, for far too many male characters (and a significant number of female characters, as well) in this series are not able to control their carnal desires, in my mind.


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## FitzChivalry (Oct 28, 2011)

Our favorite bastard is more likely to fuck Val than Melisandre.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 30, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> Our favorite bastard is more likely to fuck Val than Melisandre.



How likely is _that_ to occur?


----------



## FitzChivalry (Oct 30, 2011)

Theories aside, I have to keep it realistic and give it around 25%, which is probably generous. But given, ahem, current circumstances at the Wall, 25% may be _very _generous. The seeds were definitely planted in this book though.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Nov 1, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> Theories aside, I have to keep it realistic and give it around 25%, which is probably generous. But given, ahem, current circumstances at the Wall, 25% may be _very _generous. *The seeds were definitely planted in this book though.*



In that case, I hope that Jon plants his "seed" soon, as well; House Stark is in grave danger of becoming extinct, so any new members of it would be a very welcome addition, in my mind. I usually avoid such obvious and sexual puns, but that was for too perfect of an opportunity to waste.


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## Corruption (Nov 7, 2011)

I finally finished reading ADWD. Although I enjoyed, I can't help to feel a bit disappointed. Was expecting more stuff to happen that they were building up throughout the book. I'm not surprised at what happened to Jon, please Melisandre, give him a kiss!


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## DemonDragonJ (Nov 7, 2011)

Darkness_Surrounding said:


> I finally finished reading ADWD. Although I enjoyed, I can't help to feel a bit disappointed. Was expecting more stuff to happen that they were building up throughout the book. I'm not surprised at what happened to Jon, please Melisandre, give him a kiss!



I, also, was slightly disappointed by _A Dance with Dragons,_ but it and _A Feast for Crows_ were originally a single book that Martin decided to divide into two books, so each of them alone is only half of the complete story. Hopefully, the next book shall feel more complete and satisfactory than did the previous two.

I have noticed that this series does not a have a central antagonist, as do many other series, so is that again an aspect of Martin's deviation from traditional fantasy archetypes (i.e., most series have a central protagonist and central antagonist)?


----------



## αce (Nov 7, 2011)

Just watched first season of game of thrones. Fell in love.
Are the books just as good? Or better?

And how loyal was the show to the book?


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## Han Solo (Nov 7, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Are the books just as good? Or better?



Better.



♠Ace♠ said:


> And how loyal was the show to the book?



Very.


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## Fierce (Nov 7, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Are the books just as good? Or better?


Much better.



> And how loyal was the show to the book?



A lot better than the Harry Potter movies, but not perfect.


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## Erendhyl (Nov 7, 2011)

Er, I hope I'm not being rude by jumping into this conversation out of nowhere.



DemonDragonJ said:


> I have noticed that this series does not a have a central antagonist, as do many other series, so is that again an aspect of Martin's deviation from traditional fantasy archetypes (i.e., most series have a central protagonist and central antagonist)?



I suppose you could call the Others the central antagonists. While most of the characters aren't involved with them (so far), the characters who _do_ know about them seem to believe that the characters not paying more attention to them are being idiots. The fact that most subplots have lasted for five massive books without interacting with those "central antagonists" is definitely atypical though.


----------



## Shark Skin (Nov 7, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Just watched first season of game of thrones. Fell in love.
> Are the books just as good? Or better?
> 
> And how loyal was the show to the book?


Haven't watched the show, but I'm reading the book, absolutely love it.


----------



## Devil King Sanji (Nov 8, 2011)

Do you guys think Jon Snow died from his wounds? 

I hope not...


----------



## Felix (Nov 8, 2011)

Yeah he died
He will somehow "survive" or be revived by Melisandre so "Death has relieved him from duty" at the wall


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## Corruption (Nov 9, 2011)

Felix said:


> Yeah he died
> He will somehow "survive" or be revived by Melisandre so "Death has relieved him from duty" at the wall



That's what I guessed as soon as I finished that chapter, well at least Melisandre reviving him. I still want him to be Lord Commander though.

Also, I'm curious what Martin is going to do with Arya and how she's going to tie into the story more.


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## DemonDragonJ (Nov 10, 2011)

Darkness_Surrounding said:


> Also, I'm curious what Martin is going to do with Arya and how she's going to tie into the story more.



I myself am wondering how Arya shall develop as the series continues. I myself am hoping that she becomes an assassin of great skill, as stealth and subterfuge seem to be her strongest traits.

I also am expecting Sansa to become more similar to Littlefinger, although hopefully not similar to Cersei, as she spends time with him. Does anyone else believe that she may adopt some of his traits?


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## Corruption (Nov 10, 2011)

Sansa won't become similar to Cersei, there's no one like her, only her. Sansa will outgrow her childhood, she already is. It's possible she'll pick up some of his traits, she's already starting to lie some more and that's pretty much all that Littlefinger does.


----------



## Fierce (Nov 11, 2011)

For Sansa to become like Cersei, she'd need to be a mother, have delusions of grandeur, and be a power hungry retard. She's none of those, and I only ever see her possibly being one. She's not going to become like Littlefinger. She might get some reality checks from him, and learn from them, but I don't see her ever evolving beyond being a gentle, mannerly person, who only wants to settle down with her prince charming.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Nov 11, 2011)

Fierce said:


> For Sansa to become like Cersei, she'd need to be a mother, have delusions of grandeur, and be a power hungry retard. She's none of those, and I only ever see her possibly being one. She's not going to become like Littlefinger. She might get some reality checks from him, and learn from them, but I don't see her ever evolving beyond being a gentle, mannerly person, who only wants to settle down with her prince charming.



Yes, I can agree with that, and I shall be so bold as to say that, while this series is very dark and gritty compared to other medieval fantasy series, I hope that Sansa does eventually find true love with a man who is truly like those about whom she read in her tales (not a false "Prince Charming," as Joffrey was); after everything that she has experienced, and is likely to experience further, she deserves a happy ending, in my mind, although Martin may not be so kind.


----------



## hcheng02 (Nov 14, 2011)

Why does a majority of the fandom think that Jon Snow will survive or be revived especially considering how anyone can die in this series? What evidence do you guys have besides blind hope?


----------



## Han Solo (Nov 14, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Why does a majority of the fandom think that Jon Snow will survive or be revived especially considering how anyone can die in this series? What evidence do you guys have besides blind hope?



Because Jon dying right now makes no sense. I think anyone could die by the end (and considering my crackpot theory is that the others win, I think every single character will be dead by the end except maybe Bran or anyone who manages to flee to Essos) but characters are not going to kick the bucket until they fulfil they're own story arc which Jon has not.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Nov 14, 2011)

I'm not sure if the Others will win,but I do believe that the current "humans vs soulless evil monsters hellbent on extermination" line of thinking is somehow going to be altered.Martin enjoys playing with people's perceptions and preconceptions.Besides,for some reason I can't imagine the conclusions to Martin's series will be the typical good vs evil battle to end all ages,even if he would write it masterfully.
After all,Melisandre seems convinced about the whole duality of it,good vs evil,life vs death,R'hllor vs the Great Other,ice vs fire,and we all know how wrong she is.

Of all the mysteries and unanswered questions the fans endlessly drone about,the biggest one for me is still the significance of the title.Not what happened at the Tower of Joy,nor at Harrenhall,nor at Summerhall,not Jon's parents and not the ultimate fates of the characters.Just what is the song of ice and fire...


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## Corruption (Nov 14, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Why does a majority of the fandom think that Jon Snow will survive or be revived especially considering how anyone can die in this series? What evidence do you guys have besides blind hope?



Because Melisandre wants to bang him!


----------



## hcheng02 (Nov 14, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> Because Jon dying right now makes no sense. I think anyone could die by the end (and considering my crackpot theory is that the others win, I think every single character will be dead by the end except maybe Bran or anyone who manages to flee to Essos) but characters are not going to kick the bucket until they fulfil they're own story arc which Jon has not.



Perhaps, but considering how George Martin likes to subvert fantasy tropes and fuck over the Starks I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be another massive troll. Heroic Bastard with awesome sword that has an idea of how to fight the evil monsters? Well lets build him up high just to yank the carpet underneath the fans again!



Darkness_Surrounding said:


> Because Melisandre wants to bang him!



Refresh my memory again. Why does Melisandre want to bang Jon?


----------



## martryn (Nov 14, 2011)

> Just what is the song of ice and fire...



Ice.  The North.  Winterfell.  Jon _Snow_.  The Wall made of ice.  The White Walkers.  Etc etc.  Also means the slow plodding of this fucking series to the end. 

Fire. Daenerys.  Dragons.  Targaryens in general.  Etc etc.  Also fire is associated with change and upheaval, like this entire series has been doing to the continent of Westeros and now the Nine Free Cities. 



> Perhaps, but considering how George Martin likes to subvert fantasy tropes and fuck over the Starks I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be another massive troll. Heroic Bastard with awesome sword that has an idea of how to fight the evil monsters? Well lets build him up high just to yank the carpet underneath the fans again!



There is also the fact that Ghost is still alive, which seems to indicate the Stark associated with it is still alive, bastard or no.  Sansa's wolf died around the time she turned her back on her family and started betraying them all for Joffrey.  And then there's Robb.  Arya's wolf was set free, just as Arya herself is free from the influence her name might have on her now.  The latest book showed us that Jon Snow was still a Stark, despite taking the black.  He never turned his back on his family.  It's like he always knew he'd go back to Winterfell, and that the Wall was only temporary.  

Also, Red Priests like to raise the dead.  And there is a Red Priest that loves Jon Snow, at his location, likely willing and able to do it.  

Also, he's a skinchanger, so even if his body is dead, like, that's a grey area with them.


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## Corruption (Nov 15, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Refresh my memory again. Why does Melisandre want to bang Jon?



That was more of a joke, but Melisandre definitely appears to be fond of Jon. And like what martyn said, she's a red priestess and they like to revive people.


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## Parallax (Nov 15, 2011)

The Song of Ice and Fire seems to be about the Targaryens and Snow I guess

but it also has to do with The Prince Who Was Promised

who may or may not have been Rhaegar

it's all still a big mystery

one that the Reeds may know more about.


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## Erendhyl (Nov 15, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Why does a majority of the fandom think that Jon Snow will survive or be revived especially considering how anyone can die in this series? What evidence do you guys have besides blind hope?



My main reason is essentially gut conviction, but there are some small facts that make it seem like Martin could get more mileage out of Jon alive than dead. The main one I'm thinking of right now is Robb's will, which most likely names Jon as Robb's direct heir. This would put him ahead of his not-really-dead siblings in the line of succession. 

At the same time, Davos was sent to find Rickon with the agreement that Wyman Manderly and White Harbor would back Stannis if he succeeds. There's good potential for drama in the conflict between the Manderlys' desire for vengeance and their loyalty to the word of the last Stark king, as well as in the possible resulting conflict between Stannis and whatever sections of the North choose to support Jon. 

That, in turn, could lead to even more drama when Littlefinger convinces the Vale's knights to try to reclaim the North for Sansa. If Stannis had Rickon and Rickon's claim was undisputed, then he would precede Sansa in the line of succession even if you didn't care that Robb disinherited her, and she would be an usurper. If, however, a Rickon faction and a Jon faction were already competing, then there would be no clear "true heir" and anyone with any claim and a large enough army could start a campaign (rather like Renly did in the War of Five Kings when both Stannis and Joffrey were still clearly alive).


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## Nae'blis (Nov 15, 2011)

You think Jon would fight Rickon/Bran over Winterfell? lol. You can't say they will act like Renly/Stannis/Joffrey since the situation and history is completely different.


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## hcheng02 (Nov 16, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> You think Jon would fight Rickon/Bran over Winterfell? lol. You can't say they will act like Renly/Stannis/Joffrey since the situation and history is completely different.



Yeah, the Starks have always been pretty close to each other. I really don't see how they would fight each other for power, especially since they have been separated from each other for so long. And isn't Winterfell is pile of rubble now from being sacked by the Iron born?

I just hope that everyone is right with Jon being alive. He's probably one of my favorite characters now. Not to mention how he's probably one of the few guys who might actually be considered heroic and get a chance to get ahead in the Game of Thrones.


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## masamune1 (Nov 16, 2011)

It could be that Rickon and Sansa both ended up figureheads for armies fighting on their siblings on their "behalF", with Littlefinger for Sansa and whoever for Rickon forcing or tricking them into going along with it.  

It doesn't have to be about what any of them want, after all.


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## Erendhyl (Nov 16, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> You think Jon would fight Rickon/Bran over Winterfell? lol. You can't say they will act like Renly/Stannis/Joffrey since the situation and history is completely different.



No, but I think the non-Stark Northmen will have a problem deciding which to support and that that will lead to the same sort of problem. Like masamune1 mentioned, they can act on Jon's "behalf" without Jon himself getting involved. It might not be as violent as the War of Five Kings since the different houses of the North seem pretty friendly with each other (with the exception of the Boltons), but it still creates chaos.


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## Corruption (Nov 16, 2011)

I don't see Jon trying to take Winterfell for his own. He already was offered it by Stannis and denied him several times. However, with what happened to him at the end of ADWD, anything can happen I suppose.

With Littlefinger behind Sansa, there's no doubt he's going after Winterfell, he already shared some of his plan. I'm sure he could conjure up a plan even if Rickon is on the opposing side. Rickon is young, so it would be easier to control him without letting him know what's actually going on.

I don't see Jon taking any part of it when there's a Stark on the other side.


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## FitzChivalry (Nov 16, 2011)

> I don't see Jon trying to take Winterfell for his own. He already was offered it by Stannis and denied him several times. However, with what happened to him at the end of ADWD, anything can happen I suppose.


Different circumstances. Things are much different now than they were in _Storm_. 

Stannis asked Jon to forsake his vows when Jon was wrestling with his identity. Once he'd been made Lord Commander, he decided then he was a Brother, and refused Stannis, a man he holds no great love for, several times after that. In A Dance With Dragons, he chose the Starks and Winterfell over them. His apparent death (should he survive) gives him a way out of those vows, as does the threat of Bolton forces marches on the Wall due to one man's interference.

Not only that, Jon's claim to Winterfell supersedes that of Sansa and every other trueborn Stark, thanks to Robb (and the northern lords who signed off on this document), who left him everything in the event that he died without an heir. If Jon reads that and comes to the conclusion that Sansa is still legally married to a Lannister, with whom do you think the north would side? No northman would ever even consider the notion of a Lannister sitting in Winterfell. They're an honorable lot that would respect Robb's wish, plus Jon has actual fighting/tactical experience, looks every bit a Stark, believes in the same shit as every other northman. 

Dead, loving brother's will and wishes > cold, harsh Stannis, ten times out of ten. Though I don't think Jon has any interest in being King in the North. But we know he'd gladly settle for Winterfell.

I know there are a large group of people who don't see Jon at Winterfell, but they're opinions don't count. _I believe._


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## Parallax (Nov 16, 2011)

It's not happening

calling it now


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## Nae'blis (Nov 16, 2011)

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that you guys think Jon would actually go to war and kill the Starks just for Winterfell. That's just silly. The guy is a cunt who I hate dearly, but I don't see him telling Bran/Rickon "no, fuck you, Robb said so!"


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## Parallax (Nov 16, 2011)

I can understand not liking him

but a cunt you hate dearly?

did he like pop out from the pages and piss in your cheerios or something?


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## FitzChivalry (Nov 16, 2011)

Who the fuck said anything about Jon murdering his family to get Winterfell? The other Snow might do that. Not this one.


Parallax said:


> It's not happening
> 
> calling it now



Well, aren't you going out on a limb.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 16, 2011)

Aside from Jon and Dany being the typically Gary and Mary Stu...


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## Parallax (Nov 16, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> Well, aren't you going out on a limb.



big time 

:]


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## Han Solo (Nov 17, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> Who the fuck said anything about Jon murdering his family to get Winterfell? The other Snow might do that. Not this one.



As far as I can tell, with Wyman Manderly soon to be in control of Rickon it's going to be the only way for Jon to claim Winterfell. There is no way Manderly is going to bow to Jon once he has a figurehead of his own.


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## DemonDragonJ (Nov 17, 2011)

Currently in the story, Arya has killed several people, despite her young age and not being a cruel or evil person. It has been some time since I have read the books, so please refresh my memory: how many people has she killed, and, more importantly, what where her reasons for doing so? As she is a major protagonist in this story, I wish to have the assurance that she is completely justified in every action that she takes.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 17, 2011)

Just direct kills, or do indirect ones count?


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## Corruption (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, I wouldn't say every single person she killed was completely justified. I'll try to name all of them off the top of my head. 

She killed the stable boy in AGOT. Some of Amory Lorch's soldiers and Roose Bolton's guard in ACOK. A squire and the tickler in the inn in ASOS. Dareon and that old man in Braavos in ADWD. Dareon might have been in AFFC, can't remember.

Of course that doesn't count the people she got Jagen H'ghar to kill.


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## DemonDragonJ (Nov 17, 2011)

Famine said:


> Just direct kills, or do indirect ones count?



For the purpose of this subject, I shall ask about only the people whom she killed herself.



Darkness_Surrounding said:


> She killed the stable boy in AGOT. Some of Amory Lorch's soldiers and Roose Bolton's guard in ACOK. A squire and the tickler in the inn in ASOS. Dareon and that old man in Braavos in ADWD. Dareon might have been in AFFC, can't remember.



Killing Lorch's soldiers, Bolton's guards, and the Tickler were all definitely justified to me, as they attacked her first, but old man in Braavos and the stable boy were almost certainly not justified. Surely, she could have merely incapacitated the stable boy, and the old man was not hers to judge. I do not like when protagonists commit unjustified acts in the stories that I follow, but I suppose that I can forgive Arya for those, as she is in a situation where she is uncertain what may happen next in her life, so she needs to survive in any way that she can.


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## FitzChivalry (Nov 18, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> As far as I can tell, with Wyman Manderly soon to be in control of Rickon it's going to be the only way for Jon to claim Winterfell. There is no way Manderly is going to bow to Jon once he has a figurehead of his own.


That's assuming Manderly's plan goes off without a hitch. The fat man (yeah, not PC) wants Rickon simply for the north to have a Stark figurehead for the north to rally behind, yes. But that means that you could insert any Stark into the plan and it would run more or less the same. Manderly could be more accepting of Jon. Again, he's an adult with leadership and war experience, and he's now a Stark in name as much as blood. I'm regurgitating, sorry.

Look, it's all just speculation at this point. My theory's way out there, I know that. It's not taking into account a ton of variables, besides the ones we already know about, like Sansa, Rickon, and maybe (but probably not) Arya. I think it's safe to say Bran will not factor in this competition for Winterfell. Still, the idea of Jon walking over the corpses of his family to claim Winterfell is unfathomable. I think he would sooner relinquish his claim to it than kill Rickon. He was willing to break his oath for him and the family as much as Winterfell.


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## The Imp (Nov 19, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> That's assuming Manderly's plan goes off without a hitch. The fat man (yeah, not PC) wants Rickon simply for the north to have a Stark figurehead for the north to rally behind, yes. But that means that you could insert any Stark into the plan and it would run more or less the same. Manderly could be more accepting of Jon. Again, he's an adult with leadership and war experience, and he's now a Stark in name as much as blood. I'm regurgitating, sorry.
> 
> Look, it's all just speculation at this point. My theory's way out there, I know that. It's not taking into account a ton of variables, besides the ones we already know about, like Sansa, Rickon, and maybe (but probably not) Arya. I think it's safe to say Bran will not factor in this competition for Winterfell. Still, the idea of Jon walking over the corpses of his family to claim Winterfell is unfathomable. I think he would sooner relinquish his claim to it than kill Rickon. He was willing to break his oath for him and the family as much as Winterfell.



That's only if Manderly had no political aspirations, which is false. He wants to bring the Starks back to power, but using Rickon also increases his political influence. Rickon is only 5-6 and not nearly mature enough to run the North, which is even more apparent to Westeros because of Joffrey, the boy king. With Rickon, Manderly is going to be running the realm as his regent, and he could probably betroth his youngest daughter to him and merge his family line with the Starks. 

Jon would be way too independent. While the other lords might recognize him as a Stark and that he is a decent leader (the shit that went down at the Wall is going to hurt his reputation), they'll gain very little political power, in comparison to using Rickon.


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## Shrike (Nov 19, 2011)

And what's going to happen to the Wall now? The wildlings had only Jon to tie them to the Watch, since most of the brothers didn't care enough to try and establish a peaceful relationship but the opposite. So will the Wall be in chaos now? Will the Watch fight the wildlings? An anarchy could happen now that the giant killed one of the Queen's knights.


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## Devil King Sanji (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm to A Feast of Crows.

Aaaah I love Asha. I want her to be paired with Jon thought I doubt it'll happen.


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## Corruption (Nov 24, 2011)

Jon Stark said:


> That's assuming Manderly's plan goes off without a hitch. The fat man (yeah, not PC) wants Rickon simply for the north to have a Stark figurehead for the north to rally behind, yes. But that means that you could insert any Stark into the plan and it would run more or less the same. Manderly could be more accepting of Jon. Again, he's an adult with leadership and war experience, and he's now a Stark in name as much as blood. I'm regurgitating, sorry.
> 
> Look, it's all just speculation at this point. My theory's way out there, I know that. It's not taking into account a ton of variables, besides the ones we already know about, like Sansa, Rickon, and maybe (but probably not) Arya. I think it's safe to say Bran will not factor in this competition for Winterfell. Still, the idea of Jon walking over the corpses of his family to claim Winterfell is unfathomable. I think he would sooner relinquish his claim to it than kill Rickon. He was willing to break his oath for him and the family as much as Winterfell.



Well, it's possible Jon can get Winterfell at the end of the story, it depends how GRRM plays it out. One of the reasons I don't think he will take it, at least not until later is because his duty at the wall isn't over. There's no way that Jon is actually staying dead, he has too much relevence to the story left, or at least I think he does. I believe he's actually Azhor Azhai reborn, there's a lot of stuff hinting at it.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Nov 26, 2011)

[Youtube]l0Jm_mT1G8Q[/youtube]

oh Seven, I can't believe I missed this


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## Corruption (Nov 26, 2011)

That was the greatest video I've ever watched.


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## KidTony (Nov 29, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Aside from Jon and Dany being the typically Gary and Mary Stu...



You can't say that about Dany any longer, not after ADWD and her clusterfuck of mistakes and idiotic choices. Before i would definitely agree Dany was 'too perfect', but in ADWD it's like GRRM took those complaints to heart and decided to write a chraracter arc for her in which she coudn't find another mistake to make or another dumb stupid thing with a gazillion horrible consequenses to do.

I also don't think you can call Jon a Gary Stu, though he's more debatable than Dany.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 30, 2011)

I'll believe that when he doesn't get revived and singlehandedly save the world, which this series seems to be building towards.


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## FitzChivalry (Nov 30, 2011)

Singlehandedly? Hardly. At least I hope not. I know he has this unforunate Gary Stu aura about him, which is why I liked his chapters in Dance. He did things that the ultimate Gary Stu, Eddard Stark, would have never in a million years endorsed. If there's one thing that bothered me about Jon in books past, and my problem with other characters, in his honor. While noble, it's usually very annoying. I enjoyed the parts where it looked like Jon was deviating from that path, even if a little. He'll never be a Tyrion in terms of guile or whatever, but there is hope for the bastard yet.


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## masamune1 (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't think people here know what a Gary / Mary Sue character is.


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## FitzChivalry (Nov 30, 2011)

I know it's ludicrous to call Daenerys one at this point. Not with all her many flaws and almost inexplicable fuck-ups.


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## KidTony (Nov 30, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> I don't think people here know what a Gary / Mary Sue character is.



exactly. Jon isn't a character without flaws by a long shot, and Dany certainly isn't. Even Ned wasn't one. Ned had plenty of flaws, he ended up dead because he was too shortsighted to see past his honor in a climate that called for being rutheless.


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## Corruption (Nov 30, 2011)

What does everyone think of Bran's storyline? I wish there were more of his chapters in ADWD. I've read some theories about it and how Bran might be corrupted by the three eyed crow. I'm not sure what to think about that. Although, after reading The Tales of Dunk & Egg, it's pretty obvious who the three eyed crow is.


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## Shrike (Nov 30, 2011)

I found Bran's chapter easily one of the most interesting in the Dance. I am completely blind to what his purpose in the future can be though. That makes his storyline that much more awesome.


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## Parallax (Nov 30, 2011)

Brans are one of the most intriguing aspects of the series period.  If only because so much is a mystery even at this point.


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## Corruption (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree. The Bran and Theon chapters were my favorites in the last book.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 30, 2011)

Spike_Shrike said:


> I am completely blind to what his purpose in the future can be though.


As far as he's learned in the craft, he is a massive communication network, which is handy when you have problems on multiple fronts and vast stretches of land between each.


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## Han Solo (Nov 30, 2011)

The only character I might argue is somewhat (and I do mean somewhat) of a Gary Stu would be Tyrion. How the hell do Jon and Dany qualify?


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## Erendhyl (Dec 1, 2011)

I agree that Tyrion is probably closest, but even he has moments where his mouth gets him into trouble and he looks stupid for not shutting up. When a Mary Sue delivers a snarky reply, the other character is either taken down by their superb wit or is clearly just being unfair by continuing to oppose them.



Darkness_Surrounding said:


> What does everyone think of Bran's storyline? I wish there were more of his chapters in ADWD. I've read some theories about it and how Bran might be corrupted by the three eyed crow. I'm not sure what to think about that. Although, after reading The Tales of Dunk & Egg, it's pretty obvious who the three eyed crow is.



I've always liked Bran, and I'm really looking forward to his story parts in The Winds of Winter. I wish he'd had more time in Dance with Dragons to start exploring history and revealing things.

I also like his new ability because it makes it very interesting to reread scenes from earlier books that took place in weirwoods. For example, there's a scene from A Game of Thrones when Robb is planning to march off to war and Bran goes to the godswood to pray. The wind blows, and Osha says that the old gods are sad because they have no power to help Robb in the south. Imagining an older Bran rewatching that scene and knowing what happened to his brother is heartwrenching.


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## KidTony (Dec 2, 2011)

How is Tyrion the closest? He's one of the most flawed characters in the series. As i understand a Gary Stu is a character who can do no wrong, who is almost flaweless. Tyrion might be a fan favorite, but he's not perfect by a long shot. He has his share of horrible acts to his name. For starters, he killed his own father. In Dance, a lot of people skipped over this, but he basically raped that whore in Volantis since she was a slave who was forced into sex, and Tyrion knew this.


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## masamune1 (Dec 2, 2011)

Considering who his father was and why he killed him, I don't think a lot of people consider that "doing wrong". 

It's like Vader chucking Palpatine over the rails to his death- whatever the political ramifications, the bastard had it coming.

No character in this series is a Gary Stu, certainly not characters who die halfway through or at _the beginning of the story_ largely due to them misreading the situation (or reading it fine, but failing to convince everyone else otherwise, in Ned's case because everyone else including a psychopathic 14 year old and a diabolical mastermind bent on pluning the country into civil war). 

If Tyrion is closest its because he's managed to play the game of thrones well, overcome his own limitations to do so, and survived numerous near-death situations, not to mention he is the authors favourite character and all that entails. Basically he's the guy Ned and Jon need to learn from. And Gary Stu's aren't _flawless, per say._ It's more about success and failure, and morals play second string, especially since its determined by the morals of the story. Since the success of 80's/ 90's anti-heroes having deep flaws and stuff has basically become a mark of badassness, leaving the door open to Gary Stu's whose flaws just make them more awesome.

But none of the characters are Gary Stu's anyway. Not Jon, not Tyrion and certainly not Ned.


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## Erendhyl (Dec 2, 2011)

KidTony said:


> How is Tyrion the closest? He's one of the most flawed characters in the series. As i understand a Gary Stu is a character who can do no wrong, who is almost flaweless. Tyrion might be a fan favorite, but he's not perfect by a long shot. He has his share of horrible acts to his name. For starters, he killed his own father. In Dance, a lot of people skipped over this, but he basically raped that whore in Volantis since she was a slave who was forced into sex, and Tyrion knew this.



I picked Tyrion as the closest to being a Gary Stu (not actually a Gary Stu, but closer than the other people in his universe) because I'd have the hardest time objectively explaining why he isn't. 

He's a fan favorite because he's witty and interesting (enough to regularly beat those who oppose him), both of which are clearly intended by the story and which turn into major Gary Stu identifiers in unskilled hands. I personally think he succeeds at being both, but I can't _prove_ that objectively enough for it to count in a debate. If the audience doesn?t agree that he?s clever, then Tyrion comes off as someone who the narrative goes out of its way to help, because his attempts at cleverness generally succeed. Narrative favoritism is _the_ defining mark of Gary Stus. 

For an idea of what I?m talking about, here are some events from the story taken out of their proper contexts. Near-strangers are willing to champion him in duels to the death, twice. He threatens to castrate the King and gets away with it (for a time?I think that it was mentioned at his trial as further proof that he harbored ill will towards Joffrey). He talks his way out of slavery and convinces an army of mercenaries to follow him despite being completely broke. In the hands of a less skilled writer, these events could _easily_ make Tyrion a Gary Stu, though in ASOIAF he definitely isn?t.


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## KidTony (Dec 2, 2011)

Erendhyl said:


> I picked Tyrion as the closest to being a Gary Stu (not actually a Gary Stu, but closer than the other people in his universe) because I'd have the hardest time objectively explaining why he isn't.
> 
> He's a fan favorite because he's witty and interesting (enough to regularly beat those who oppose him), both of which are clearly intended by the story and which turn into major Gary Stu identifiers in unskilled hands. I personally think he succeeds at being both, but I can't _prove_ that objectively enough for it to count in a debate. If the audience doesn’t agree that he’s clever, then Tyrion comes off as someone who the narrative goes out of its way to help, because his attempts at cleverness generally succeed. Narrative favoritism is _the_ defining mark of Gary Stus.
> 
> For an idea of what I’m talking about, here are some events from the story taken out of their proper contexts. Near-strangers are willing to champion him in duels to the death, twice. He threatens to castrate the King and gets away with it (for a time—I think that it was mentioned at his trial as further proof that he harbored ill will towards Joffrey). He talks his way out of slavery and convinces an army of mercenaries to follow him despite being completely broke. In the hands of a less skilled writer, these events could _easily_ make Tyrion a Gary Stu, though in ASOIAF he definitely isn’t.



Well, the talking someone into fighting for him thing didn't work out so well the second time, did it? lol 

I get where you comming from, but it does seem like people are judging Tyrion just because he's witty and has great social skills despite his limitations. But people forget the other side of that coin; his cleverness is sort of trade off for being a hideous dwarf.

Not only is he hampered physically, but no matter how many good things he does, he will always for the rest of his life (well, if he doesn't die by series end) be looked down upon. A lot of the thing in which he succeds at, like cleaning up King's Landing and being responsible for it not falling to Stannis, got him absolutely no credit from anyone. So while he may often end up saving the day, he hardly ever ends up the better for it--often times he ends up much worse.


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## Erendhyl (Dec 4, 2011)

KidTony said:


> Well, the talking someone into fighting for him thing didn't work out so well the second time, did it? lol
> 
> I get where you comming from, but it does seem like people are judging Tyrion just because he's witty and has great social skills despite his limitations. But people forget the other side of that coin; his cleverness is sort of trade off for being a hideous dwarf.
> 
> Not only is he hampered physically, but no matter how many good things he does, he will always for the rest of his life (well, if he doesn't die by series end) be looked down upon. A lot of the thing in which he succeds at, like cleaning up King's Landing and being responsible for it not falling to Stannis, got him absolutely no credit from anyone. So while he may often end up saving the day, he hardly ever ends up the better for it--often times he ends up much worse.



Well, Oberyn died and Tyrion didn't, so that still worked out better for him than the guy who volunteered to champion him. 

More seriously though, Gary Stuism deals with audience perception rather than in-universe perception, so what matters for evaluation is that _we_ know Tyrion is awesome and that most of the people who reject him are presented as being unreasonable in it.

Moving away from the Gary Stu topic, I'm also hoping that he'll receive public acknowledgment of _some_ kind by the end of the series. That's been a major issue for him, and if he doesn't die then I'd like to see it resolved favorably.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 4, 2011)

Is anyone here displeased that the people in this series who are rational and reasonable, such as Ned, Davos, and now Kevan, are often treated very poorly by the people who are irrational and unreasonable? I certainly am.

On the subject of Kevan, why did Varys kill him? What threat did Kevan pose to Varys?


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## Fierce (Dec 4, 2011)

Varys told him why. He was doing too good of a job bringing the realm back together. Varys needed the Seven Kingdoms to remain chaotic.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 4, 2011)

Fierce said:


> Varys told him why. He was doing too good of a job bringing the realm back together. Varys needed the Seven Kingdoms to remain chaotic.



I find that to be very unfortunate; does Varys plan to use the tumultuous situation of the Seven Kingdoms to his advantage, I presume?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 4, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I find that to be very unfortunate; does Varys plan to use the tumultuous situation of the Seven Kingdoms to his advantage, I presume?


 Well, yes. Varys seems to wish for a Targ to reclaim the Iron Throne and it's the easiest way to cement that claim and to impede any opposition: throw the realm into chaos and have the Targ(s) act as a unifying force.


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## FitzChivalry (Dec 4, 2011)

That's what Varys implied. It was made pretty obvious. While everybody's fighting, the Targaryens can just swoop in and look like the good guys.


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## Terra Branford (Dec 4, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Is anyone here displeased that the people in this series who are rational and reasonable, such as Ned, Davos, and now Kevan, are often treated very poorly by the people who are irrational and unreasonable? I certainly am.
> 
> On the subject of Kevan, why did Varys kill him? What threat did Kevan pose to Varys?



Displeased how? Like that it is happening? Yes. That I am displeased about it and would want it different? No. That's how it is in the real world, it only makes his world and characters seem all the more realistic.


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## Parallax (Dec 4, 2011)

he plans on using it to make it easier to have everyone accept the Targaryens return and give them the kingdom back


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## Proxy (Dec 5, 2011)

Concerning Bran's chapters, I was more interested in Coldhands and Brynden than about his training. Jon has a bigger part to play, so I'm of the mind to believe as well that he'll be revived.


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## Corruption (Dec 5, 2011)

Varys claims that he serves the realm. Whether he truly believes that is yet to be seen yet. Kevan was putting an end to the fued between Cersei and the Tyrells. Varys doesn't want to face the full power of Highgarden and Casterly Rock when he's trying to sit Aegon/Dany on the throne.

This makes me wonder what's going to happen in Kings Landing now. Cersei has been stripped of all her power, so I'm not sure what she can exactly do even if she believes that Tyrion and the Tyrells killed Kevan.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 6, 2011)

Which Targaryen is Varys hoping to help claim the Iron Throne? Daenerys is still across the ocean, which leaves Aegon VI as the most likely candidate, but he is very impetuous, and therefore in great danger of being killed before Varys can assist him.

I hope that the rivalry between the Tyrells and Lannisters can be resolved in some form, as such a rivalry shall hurt both houses as time passes.

I also am interested in seeing what shall happen to House Tully, as Catelyn and Lysa are doth dead (or undead, in Catelyn's situation), and Edmure is essentially a hostage of the Freys.


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## Mr.Blonde (Dec 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Which Targaryen is Varys hoping to help claim the Iron Throne? Daenerys is still across the ocean, which leaves Aegon VI as the most likely candidate, but he is very impetuous, and therefore in great danger of being killed before Varys can assist him.


Aegon.I believe he outright stated it in the epilogue of ADWD,right after he crossbow'd Kevan.


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## fourwalls (Dec 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Which Targaryen is Varys hoping to help claim the Iron Throne? Daenerys is still across the ocean, which leaves Aegon VI as the most likely candidate, but he is very impetuous, and therefore in great danger of being killed before Varys can assist him.



Yep, right now I believe that to be Aegon as well. I think he is also more suited for ruling than Dany. I forgot what happened to Tyrion. He is still with Aegon right?  If that's the case then all the more reason for Aegon to rule with Tyrion at his side.


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## Fierce (Dec 6, 2011)

Tyrion is with the Second Sons, plotting to get them back on Dany's side. Varys spilled everything to Kevan, about Aegon being raised and groomed to lead.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 6, 2011)

Is it confirmed that Kevan is dead? I know that the chapter left very little doubt on that subject, with Kevan being shot with a crossbow, and a group of assassins attacking him, but, as with the final chapter from Jon's perspective ended in a very similar manner, so I am hoping that Martin provides a definite answer to that question. Of course, from the perspective of the audience, Kevan's chances of survival are far less than Jon's, as Jon is more important to the story and provides a perspective in the north.

On the subject of the north, I do not like how the people in the south are completely unaware of the threat of the Others in the north. Although I certainly do not wish for the others to overrun the north, I would like the to be a threat to the south, for some of its people are too content and believe that they are in no great danger, and an attack of that magnitude would certainly disturb their feeling of security and content. What does everyone else say about that?


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## Damaris (Dec 6, 2011)

just finished this series. arya is severely overrated, that's all i have to say. dany, the hound, sansa; probably my favorite characters. theon makes me sad.


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## Erendhyl (Dec 6, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *Is it confirmed that Kevan is dead?* I know that the chapter left very little doubt on that subject, with Kevan being shot with a crossbow, and a group of assassins attacking him, but, as with the final chapter from Jon's perspective ended in a very similar manner, so I am hoping that Martin provides a definite answer to that question. Of course, from the perspective of the audience, Kevan's chances of survival are far less than Jon's, as Jon is more important to the story and provides a perspective in the north.



I've seen it mentioned several times (on other sites) that prologue and epilogue characters will always die, even if it's later in the novel like Chett from SoS. Does anyone know if Martin has ever explicitly said this, or is it just a pattern that fans have noticed?


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## Fierce (Dec 6, 2011)

Damaris said:


> just finished this series. arya is severely overrated, that's all i have to say. dany, the hound, sansa; probably my favorite characters. theon makes me sad.



I'm with you on Arya. Everyone adores her, but I've never been a fan. Don't really care for Dany or Sansa either, though.


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## Mr.Blonde (Dec 6, 2011)

Personally I love Arya,though part of that may stem from how she's portrayed on the show and Maisie William's cuteness.I know some people complained about Arya's Braavos chapters but I think they're some of the best,as I'm really into the Faceless Men.


DemonDragonJ said:


> On the subject of the north, I do not like how the people in the south are completely unaware of the threat of the Others in the north. Although I certainly do not wish for the others to overrun the north, I would like the to be a threat to the south, for some of its people are too content and believe that they are in no great danger, and an attack of that magnitude would certainly disturb their feeling of security and content. What does everyone else say about that?


Well to be fair not even the North is aware of the threat of the Others.Just the Wall,and the wildlings.Beyond that,there was always a huge cultural gap between the North and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.


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## FitzChivalry (Dec 6, 2011)

> Well to be fair not even the North is aware of the threat of the Others.Just the Wall,and the wildlings.Beyond that,there was always a huge cultural gap between the North and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.



And there is but one man who can bridge this gap, one man to unite all of the north. Care to guess who?

Use your thinking face:

(must shamelessly plug the bastard character until I change my name back to what it was)


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## KidTony (Dec 6, 2011)

I like Arya as a character, i just don' particulary care for the storylines she's involved in. Most of Clash and Storm she's just wandering around, getting captured or escaping. Some really epic moments (is there gold in the village?, Jaquen stuff)  but those are few and far between and the rest is her wandering around the riverlands back and forth.


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## Terra Branford (Dec 6, 2011)

Arya? Overrated?  I would agree that the last book's chapters for Arya...were disappoint, at least, but overrated? Makes my heart ache to hear it!


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## fourwalls (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't think Arya is overrated. A character in her situation, who could survive as long as her, and as good as her. What she had been through as a character would be one of the most difficult and she managed. It's just that true, the last chapters she was in wasn't as adventurous as the others. On the other hand, the Theon chapters became on of the best imo. I'd love to see more of him and Asha.

Sansa, I understand the hate directed at her, but also considering her situation, could you have managed better? She did have every intention to kill Joffrey, but was just stopped by the hound.


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## FitzChivalry (Dec 7, 2011)

She was hated because she loved an asshole, for one. _Everyone_ saw he was an asshole except for her and Cersei, which isn't really good company for comparison. Some of her chapters where she described to have "desperately" wanted Joffrey made me want to throw something. Was she that blind? Secondly, inadvertently or not, she fucked her family in a big way. Thirdly, she was a supercilious cunt right until Ned lost his head, which she helped facilitate with her big mouth.

My thorough dislike of her receded after that though, and I enjoyed reading her chapters more from then on. Not everyone feels the same about that though, and I can understand why. There was a lot you had to get over before you can start liking her.


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## Parallax (Dec 7, 2011)

Sansa chapters were always good cause interesting characters flock around her even if she was initially a horrid character.


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## Banhammer (Dec 7, 2011)

And it has Petyr which is like, one of the last genuinely great characters in that series, by having both an interesting personality, and an interesting story.


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## Fierce (Dec 7, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> When did that happen? It has been some time since I read the earlier books, so could you please refresh my memory?


When Joffrey showed Ned's head to Sansa, she was planning to push him off the bridge or tower or whatever.



> On that subject, if I ever have a daughter, and she seems to be too fond of fairy tales or any franchise that emphasizes princesses and royalty, such as many pieces of merchandise from the Disney Corporation, I may possibly give her this series to read, so that she may see what could happen if one takes stories with idealized characters too seriously.



Yes, I too will give my child a fairy tale to read in order to scare her away from fairy tales.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 7, 2011)

Fierce said:


> When Joffrey showed Ned's head to Sansa, she was planning to push him off the bridge or tower or whatever.



Yes, I see, but would that not have been a rather obvious, and therefore foolish, way to kill him? I myself would like to have seen Sansa allow Joffrey to make love to her, concealing a poisoned dagger in her clothing and then using it at the most opportune moment. Or would such a tactic have been too risky, as Joffrey might have caught Sansa before she could succeed in striking him?


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## Nae'blis (Dec 7, 2011)

.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 7, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> .



So, are you saying that you believe that such a tactic would not have succeeded?


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## Mr.Blonde (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't think poisoned daggers are that readily available to highborn ladies,and Sansa most of all.
Not to mention that she would end up shorter by a head regardless of how she killed Joffrey,so why complicate things.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Dec 7, 2011)

It's Sansa Stark, not O-Ren Ishi-EEeeeee.


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## Corruption (Dec 7, 2011)

Parallax said:


> Sansa chapters were always good cause interesting characters flock around her even if she was initially a horrid character.



Sansa chapters with the Hound and Littlefinger were always good.


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Dec 7, 2011)

Just finished ADWD and i found it boring. Jon, Arya, Davos and Theon's chapters were ok, but i don't care for Victarion,Daenerys and the Slave Bay stuff and they took the 60% of the book. 
I love Tyron but his tour from Pentos to Mereen was dull. The only noticeable freshness came from two POV of badass Connington.


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## Banhammer (Dec 10, 2011)

there are amazing reviews on Amazon.Com


*Spoiler*: __ 





He broke his fast with boiled neeps, and shivering stew, washed down with a flagon of Dornish ale. The grease from stewed salt pork clung to his gristly beard as he donned a slashed velvet doublet of purple satin, emblazoned with the crest of Ser Eddard Bauer. Over his smallclothes, he wore black pantaloons. He clambered into his Honda and began the short journey west, bearing northwards along the interstate. He turned left, edging his way past opposing traffic. If I look back, I am lost.

His office was a dull brown keep that sat astride the Crown Road. His desk was hidden behind a soundproofed beige cubicle and was lined with a faux wood finish. Reek, reek, it rhymes with teak.

He had finished A Dance with Dragons not a noonsday before and wondered if in truth he had finished the entire series. George R. R. Martin is so constipated from the fawnings of his lickspittles and self-indulgent side stories that he's not like to drop another turd of a novel anytime soon, if the last decade has told it true, he thought to himself.

He smirked at his own witticism. "It is known" he said aloud to himself.

To tell it true, he had enjoyed several parts of the novel. Jon Snow's first chapter was strong, as were the Bran and Davos chapters. He'd not expected that. Many of the early story arcs had glistened wetly with promise but of these Martin had written little and less as the book wore on. Of Dany's aimless navel-gazing, there'd been much and more. Asha and Victarion vied for the distinction of the most pointless Greyjoy POV. Ariane Martell had twisted her teats for naught, for her brother Quentyn's chapters proved to be as useless as nipples on a breastplate. Gods be good, he thought, the fat man teased us with Feast's Dorne chapters for.... this?

And Jaime... that had been the cruelest jape of all. Best that Martin had left out his sole chapter. Though, given the masturbatory excess of Dance's prose, Martin could have learned a thing or two from a man who'd had to make do without his sword hand.

The epilogue was a satisfying end to an unsavory meal, but even the most succulent lemoncake doesn't salvage a bland and unfilling meal of gruel. In truth, it should've been left in A Feast for Crows, along with Cersei's chapters. At least then at least one of the novels from the last ten years would've amounted to more than a mummer's farce.

He set down his copy of A Dance with Dragons with an unsatisfying thud. Words are wind, he mused. Speaking of which... He raised a leg and broke his word. It smelt of stale bacon grease and mashed neeps.

By then, his bladder was full to bursting from the morning's coffee, so he headed to the latrine before he pissed his smallclothes. Reek, reek, it rhymes with leak. Along the way, he passed the receptionist from the adjoining office. She was a pretty brown-haired thing, a woman of about four-and-twenty, fully flowered.

"Where do whores go?", he asked her.

She slapped him.

He entered the men's bathroom and undid his breeches. The urinals were crofted from gleaming white porcelain and bore the seal of American Standard. Whilst it received his golden stream of the morning's piss, he contemplated how this was a metaphor for how Ser Martin had raised the leg and done the same to the continuity of A Song of Ice and Fire and the first three books.

He angrily composed an e-mail to Martin's editor whilst zipping up his breeches. He was only a man grown, unskilled in the ways of editing, but such was his wroth.

You know nothing, Anne Groell...


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## Banhammer (Dec 10, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



J. Dent: A Dance Without Dragons (repost)

    PROLOGUE

    He awoke to the feel of sunlight on his face. At last the day had come. He stretched to work out the kinks in his joints and muscles, and he groaned at the throbbing in his head. On his nightstand lay a bottle of Dornish red, which he downed in one long swallow to clear his mind, wine dribbling down his beard and shirt. He spied the book at the corner of his room where he had hurled it, and nearly threw the bottle too as the rage resurfaced along with his senses.

    The book was called A Dance with Dragons, a book that he had vowed to write a review for to publish on Amazon.com. The ending had left him dazed and confused the night before, and he longed to leech the foulness from his blood in the form of a scathing review to warn the poor fools from making the same mistakes he had. But first…

    His bladder was full to burst, and he propelled himself to the privy to relieve himself of his heavy load. A steaming stream shot from his hose like the boiling vomit of a sick dragon; far more than what he had anticipated. He counted five and ten seconds gone by as he continued to shoot and spurt, and when it ended he sighed in satisfaction. He shook off the last drops and pulled up his smallclothes, mission accomplished, but what was this…

    His tummy rumbled.

    A dragon’s roar erupted from his hind quarters, a sound that bellowed like the wet cheeks of thunder itself. The smell was revolting, and flakes of brown and bubbling slime oozed down his legs like gravy.

    “Farts are wind.” He chuckled, saliva running down his beard and shirt.

    CHAPTER 1

    He opened his refrigerator to check its contents. He was hungry, and he was not going to write his review until he was full and sated. Much and more can be done in a day, and he wasn’t about to rush himself.

    Within were foods beyond count and description, but he was going to try anyway. Two cartons of eggs sat at the top shelf, each carton containing sixteen shells filled with delicious yolk and white. On shelf two there were meats of every kind: ham and beef and pork, bacon and roast beef and steak, enough to make his mouth water and his stomach jiggle with hunger winds. Yogurts dominated the third shelf of least three different brands and ten different flavors. Orange juice, apple juice, grape juice, juice of every fruit and flavor. He would not go thirsty, mayhaps. There were also cakes of cheese and chocolate and strawberry short, as well as pies of apple and custard for when he tired of cake. Winter may come, but he would not go hungry. The bottom shelves were for vegetables, cabbages and carrots, broccoli and lettuce, tomatoes and…what…

    “Neeps? What the hell are neeps?” He shrugged.

    He broke his fast on fried neeps and bacon, scooping them up in week old hard bread that he hollowed out and used as a trencher. He tipped the delicious soup into his mouth, bits of neep and bacon grease running down his beard and shirt. When that was done he ate the trencher too, the soggy crumbs clinging to his facial hair. He mopped up the excess grease with his beard, saving it for future consumption. If there was anything he hated more than procrastination, it was wastefulness.

    His review was in his mind. He yearned to write it, as that was his true purpose and he despised these bothersome distractions! But first, he had to travel. Surely there was plenty of time. Much and more can be done in a day, after all. Much and more.

    CHAPTER FIVE

    The ship sailed down the river.

    In truth, he was not driving a ship, nor was he in a river. But he had always longed to go sailing, and if he could, he would write about it incessantly and without restraint. But as of now, he drove a car, and while there was no river, there was a road, a long strip of gray asphalt that continued on to the vast horizon, leading to his destination, wherever that would be, and oh the Seven only knew when he would get there. The road was cracked and the paint that divided it chipped and faded, mayhaps from age and use. The buildings passed by in a vague blur, but he could not pay attention to them now. He had to look ahead, or risk getting lost at sea. If I look left I am lost.

    Like the outstretched hand of a giant, a red light loomed before him, forcing him to stop in his tracks. There were three lights in all, red and orange and green. They played in sequence, herding the ships about like kings in an ocean court. He wanted to push on past that oppressive red god, but he knew to do so would be a one way ticket to the black cells. And the jail was dark and full of terrors.

    He could not afford to risk that, to be held captive for the tenth time like some onion smuggler. He had a review to write, and no time to waste. But he would get there, he assured himself. He only had to sail - drive - thrice more. But first comes the setup, and then he would put his pieces to play.

    CHAPTER THIRTY

    “Good morning, sir. It’s good to see you again!”

    “Hello, wench.” He greeted. On the counter was an assortment of goods and food products. He had enumerated them in excruciating detail the chapter before, but he saw no reason not to do so again. Packs of lunchables were stacked like a mountain of prepared meals to lazily break his fasts on on the counter before him. Jugs of milk stood next to them, flanked by bags of cookies and crackers in varying brands and flavors. And oh R’hllord the cheese! Sliced cheese, round cheese, white cheese, blue cheese, string cheese and cream cheese. New pieces of hardbread were grouped to the side, of which he would use as trenchers when they become old and tough as rocks. And-

    “That would be thirty-six fifty, sir.”, said the wench.

    “What?”

    “Thirty six fifty. I rang them up while you were describing them. I like to pretend we’re racing. I always win though.” She smiled.

    “Ah, I see.” His eyes squinted at her, as if seeing her for the first time. Her hair was the color of straw and flowed past her shoulders and held in a band with a cute lion face (LANNISTER!) so as not to be obtrusive, culminating in a widow’s peak at her hairline. Her eyes were like brown m&m’s swimming in a sea of innocent milk. She wore a white blouse slashed with yellow with the top two buttons open. Her bosom was impressive, and on the left was a nametag.

    “Darianne. Oh Darianne! How have I not noticed you before!”, he crooned.

    “Um…I don’t know. We see eachother everyday…you like to describe your purchases while I-“

    “Silence! Don’t speak! You have awakened the dragon, and oh how he roars. I wish to sit for ten chapters straight and repeat your name! Darianne! Darianne! Darianne! And please, call me nuncle!” Suddenly he shook his head, and his eyes focusing and his gut retracting, as if waking up from a terrible spell. “No, I must not! I have a review to write, and these random romantic dalliances will only waste time!” But as if succumbing to a force (a big, fat, lazy force), his eyes glossed over and his stomach spilled over his belt, and once again he was lost. “Please, take me through your Myrish swamp!”

    “…”

    CHAPTER 52 - 88

    “Go Giants!”

    CHAPTER 89

    It had been a long day, longer than the longest of books, longer than even the longest installments of the most epic of epic sagas. There had been many distractions along the way (through no fault of mine!), many foods to enumerate and much sailing - driving - to do, and he was contented to immerse himself in all of it. But the end had come at last; there was no more time for those distractions. It was time for the climax, and he must needs go with a bang. If there was actually anyone waiting, this was the moment they were waiting for.

    He sat in his chair, facing the computer screen, ready to write his review. The time was twelve and twenty, his cheek still stinging from the slap Darianne had given him, and his fingers flexed and ached to at last express what he felt after reading A Dance with Dragons. He glanced at the mirror hanging at his side, and for a fraction of a second he glimpsed the face of a rotund old man with a snowy white beard wearing a newsboy hat and an NFL jersey, who somehow reminded him of a greedy Santa. He shook his head. He must be weary from lack of writing.

    His fingers twitched over the keyboard, eyes glued forward at the screen. There was no shirking it now. The end would have to come. No more excuses. It was the end of the road. The final countdown. Duh duh DUHduh, duhduh duhduhDUH! The “setup” was complete, and his characters waited in place, ready to make their moves. This was the moment he had spent an entire day and one thousand figurative pages preparing for. At last the day had come. His beard smelled awful. A Dance With Dragons was…

    He wrote a word.


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## KidTony (Dec 12, 2011)

So the best news for fans of the audiobooks.

Roy Dotrice has recorded the AFFC audibook and its set to realise via audible on the 15th of the month!!!! Out in physical copy (CDs) march of next year.

This is the best ASOIF news i had in a while!


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Dec 28, 2011)

Oh shit! 




*Spoiler*: __ 



BRAN?!!?!!?!!!


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## Suigetsu (Dec 28, 2011)

Fck Daenerys I dont like that bitch. Is Martin aware that people now despise that wretched bitch?


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## Nayrael (Dec 28, 2011)

You think he gives a BEEP? ^_^;


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## Parallax (Dec 28, 2011)

Great sample chapter


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## Cyphon (Dec 28, 2011)

God I love this series. Awesome chapter.


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## The Imp (Dec 28, 2011)

Great chapter. Anybody think Bran is going to give some sort of supernatural sign to the other Northerners during Theon's execution? Maybe make them think that Theon is protected by the Old Gods, and further the religious unrest between the King's men and the North.


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## Erendhyl (Dec 28, 2011)

The Imp said:


> Great chapter. Anybody think Bran is going to give some sort of supernatural sign to the other Northerners during Theon's execution? Maybe make them think that Theon is protected by the Old Gods, and further the religious unrest between the King's men and the North.



That would be _very_ interesting.

I'm also curious about Asha here, since she seems to switch pretty quickly from trying to ransom Theon to suggesting they chop his head off as an offering to gods that she doesn't believe in. It's more merciful than burning him alive, but she isn't the type to give up so quickly.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 28, 2011)

Suigetsu said:


> Fck Daenerys I dont like that bitch. Is Martin aware that people now despise that wretched bitch?


He knows. She looks nothing like the character from the previous books. It was obvious Martin was taking the piss when he had her say "wake the dragon" like an idiot three times a chapter. It makes room for Targaryen loyalists to jump ship to Aegon.


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## martryn (Dec 29, 2011)

> It makes room for Targaryen loyalists to jump ship to Aegon.



It's not looking good for him, either, though, what with the tone of the last chapter he appeared in.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 29, 2011)

I may have asked this already, but how likely is House Martell to rally behind Aegon VI? Lord Doran certainly wishes to oppose the Lannisters and reclaim the Iron Throne for a Targaryen, but will Aegon VI prove to be worthy in his view?

Also, I read the sample chapter from _The Winds of Winter,_ and why can Theon not bring himself to reveal Jeyne's true identity? I cannot stand this deception, as it causes me great torment to see so many characters believing her to be Arya when we, the audience, know that she is not. I do not see what reason Theon has to continue pretending that Jeyne is Arya, especially since he is now in great danger of dying.


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## Freija (Dec 29, 2011)

Plot no jutsu is the reason ^


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## Cyphon (Dec 29, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> why can Theon not bring himself to reveal Jeyne's true identity?



Didn't he mention it in the chapter? He thinks keeping her as Arya will prevent them from being sent back to Bolton.


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## The Imp (Dec 29, 2011)

Because no one gives a shit about Jeyne Poole. Arya, on the other hand, would be treated like a princess. It keeps her safe, as well as helping Theon out.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 29, 2011)

Yes, I can understand that Theon is attempting to protect Jeyne, but I still hope that her true identity is exposed somehow in the next book, because her impersonation is simply wrong and unjust to me, a reader.

Why did the Lannisters not have someone impersonate Sansa, as they did Arya, after Sansa escaped? Was that because Sansa was already well-known to the public and an imposter would have been recognized as such?


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## Freija (Dec 29, 2011)

No, it's just because plot no jutsu was not invented yet.


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## Erendhyl (Dec 29, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I can understand that Theon is attempting to protect Jeyne, but I still hope that her true identity is exposed somehow in the next book, because her impersonation is simply wrong and unjust to me, a reader.
> 
> Why did the Lannisters not have someone impersonate Sansa, as they did Arya, after Sansa escaped? Was that because Sansa was already well-known to the public and an imposter would have been recognized as such?



The Lannisters believed Sansa was responsible for Joffrey's murder, and Sansa escaped so they wouldn't kill her. Having an imposter would just mean that they couldn't hunt the real Sansa for revenge.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 29, 2011)

Erendhyl said:


> The Lannisters believed Sansa was responsible for Joffrey's murder, and Sansa escaped so they wouldn't kill her. Having an imposter would just mean that they couldn't hunt the real Sansa for revenge.



Is not Cersei the only Lannister who actually believes that Sansa was responsible for Joffrey's death?

Also, on that subject, was anyone disappointed that Joffrey was killed by poison, rather than in open combat? I certainly was, as he was the most significant antagonist in the story at that time, so I was hoping for someone to openly renounce him and challenge him to a one-on-one duel to the death, ending in Joffrey being killed. Would that have been as dramatic, or would that have been too predictable?


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## Han Solo (Dec 29, 2011)

Great chapter. Stannis continues to be the funniest character in the series, I'm guessing he's going to use the lakes to drown them as they come.


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## martryn (Dec 29, 2011)

> was anyone disappointed that Joffrey was killed by poison, rather than in open combat?



I thought it was awesome.  Combat might have been quick.  He died painfully, and in embarrassment, in front of a room full of people, clawing at his own throat.  The ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


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## Erendhyl (Dec 29, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Is not Cersei the only Lannister who actually believes that Sansa was responsible for Joffrey's death?
> 
> Also, on that subject, was anyone disappointed that Joffrey was killed by poison, rather than in open combat? I certainly was, as he was the most significant antagonist in the story at that time, so I was hoping for someone to openly renounce him and challenge him to a one-on-one duel to the death, ending in Joffrey being killed. Would that have been as dramatic, or would that have been too predictable?



Wasn't Lady Olenna also intending to have Sansa framed though? She'd support Cersei, and she's the real leader of the Tyrells. The Lannisters wouldn't want to disagree with both the Tyrells and a fellow Lannister, especially not when they also believe that Tyrion Lannister was one of the murderers. If both Tyrion _and_ the queen start to oppose the main family, then it makes the Lannisters look disorganized and weak.

As for Joffrey, I was disappointed that the poison was so _quick_. It only lasted one scene! I was hoping for him to have something like what Theon eventually got, where he loses all his advantages and is forced to realize what a low person he is. Except, unlike Theon, I wanted him to die afterward.


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## Corruption (Dec 29, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Oh shit!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does this mean he has started writing Winds or is it still leftover Dance chapters? I know there are Arianne, Sansa and Arya chapters leftover from Dance.


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## The Imp (Dec 29, 2011)

Darkness_Surrounding said:


> Does this mean he has started writing Winds or is it still leftover Dance chapters? I know there are Arianne, Sansa and Arya chapters leftover from Dance.



It's probably leftover from Dance. Just look at the timeline, this happens before Jon's assassination.


----------



## Nae'blis (Dec 29, 2011)

Don't worry everyone, there is still going to be a seven year wait between Dance and the next one. Just send the fucker a bunch of nitroglycerin and pray for the best.


----------



## Corruption (Dec 29, 2011)

I just got a chance to read the spoiler chapter.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I wonder what's Brans plan for contacting Theon is?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Dec 30, 2011)

On the subject of Joffrey, I was disappointed not so much that he was killed by poison, rather than combat, but more that very few people openly renounced him and he was forced to confront the fact that he was a cruel and immature brat and not a complete badass, as he clearly believed himself to be.

On the subject of House Lannister, now that Varys has killed Kevan, what shall happen to it? Shall it be able to recover from its recent disgraces? Tywin was able to save the house once before, but its current members are either unable to do so (i.e., Cersei, Tyrion) or are not interested in doing so (i.e., Jaime, Lancel), so I now fear for its future.


----------



## Banhammer (Dec 30, 2011)

He was a little prat that died the way he lived
Helpless, virgin and laughing at dwarves


----------



## Banhammer (Dec 30, 2011)

And I did a barrel laugh when I heard martin doesn't like fanfic


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Dec 31, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> He was a little prat that died the way he lived
> Helpless, virgin and laughing at dwarves



Yes, I suppose that that fate does have a certain poetic and karmic quality about it.


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 31, 2011)

Now that I think about it, it would have been badass for Arya to come back and school that little bitch with Needle in front of everyone. Doing it while reciting all of Syrio's sayings/styles with a special saying saved for when she deals the death blow.


----------



## Nae'blis (Dec 31, 2011)

Reserve that cheese for the  _Inheritance Cycle_


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 31, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Reserve that cheese for the  _Inheritance Cycle_



Are you saying that such an occurrence would be out-of-place for _A Song of Ice and Fire?_ Also, incidentally, the _Inheritance Cycle_ has a character named Arya, as well; that Arya is completely different from the Arya in this series, so I am certain that it is purely a coincidence that they have the same name.


----------



## Parallax (Dec 31, 2011)

Nae is right it wouldn't have worked for a series like ASOIAF it would have been too over the top and Arya would have gotten killed pretty much on the spot after that.  The tone of those books doesn't allow shenanigans like that to go unpunished

in many ways the series is a pretty harsh deconstruction of the fantasy genre in general.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 2, 2012)

In _A Dance with Dragons,_ a priest of R'hllor healed a wound that Victarion had received, so I now wonder: if Jaime had his hand restored, would that action undermine the character development that he has experienced since it was severed?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 2, 2012)

Not even resurrection by fire restores lost body parts

And I don't particularly give a darn about how great the kid catapult has become, he got what he had coming

Even if the kid was an annoying prat like bran


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## Parallax (Jan 2, 2012)

If ten kids had to die so that Jaime had to live I would be ok with it.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 2, 2012)

Jaime when/after Bitch Cat  gives him the wine = best character with Tyrion/Arya/Littlefinger/Davos. 

And Dondarrion still has his eye missing and skull caved in, Lady Stoneheart still has her bruises. R'hillor healing doesn't fix everything, just brings the person back to life regardless of mortal wounds. Dondarrion had a lance through his chest, but I always wondered if the lance went through his heart... and if it did, would another lance through the same wound kill him or not mean anything.

Bran is awesome. His chapters are somewhat boring if you don't care about history building and what to expect in the final books. Otherwise the chapters are fantastic. Come to think of it, aside from Jaime, has any meaningful history of Westeros come in any chapters other than Bran's?


----------



## Fierce (Jan 2, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Jaime when/after Bitch Cat  gives him the wine = best character with Tyrion/Arya/Littlefinger/Davos.
> 
> And Dondarrion still has his eye missing and skull caved in, Lady Stoneheart still has her bruises. R'hillor healing doesn't fix everything, just brings the person back to life regardless of mortal wounds. Dondarrion had a lance through his chest, but I always wondered if the lance went through his heart... and if it did, would another lance through the same wound kill him or not mean anything.
> 
> Bran is awesome. His chapters are somewhat boring if you don't care about history building and what to expect in the final books. Otherwise the chapters are fantastic. Come to think of it, aside from Jaime, has any meaningful history of Westeros come in any chapters other than Bran's?


Ned? Tyrion? Selmy?


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## Parallax (Jan 3, 2012)

yeah the Selmy chapters were a nice treasure trove of history. Ned too, and Catelyn but a very small amount.


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## The Imp (Jan 3, 2012)

Selmy? IIRC his chapters were mostly him dealing with his present situation. There were only a few remarks on Ashara Dayne and Aerys II. Not exactly comparable to Bran's chapters.


----------



## Parallax (Jan 3, 2012)

they had a few key pieces that really added a lot of context and details to the old stories that fleshed them out.


----------



## Cyphon (Jan 4, 2012)

Parallax said:


> Nae is right it wouldn't have worked for a series like ASOIAF it would have been too over the top and Arya would have gotten killed pretty much on the spot after that.  The tone of those books doesn't allow shenanigans like that to go unpunished
> 
> in many ways the series is a pretty harsh deconstruction of the fantasy genre in general.



This is true but it still would have been cool to see Arya do it.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2012)




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## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2012)

Parallax said:


> If ten kids had to die so that Jaime had to live I would be ok with it.



If Catelyn stark had to return in order for Jamie Lannister loose his other hand I would be ok with it.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 4, 2012)

^ lol.

Catelyn aka Lady Bitch has no other role to play now, in the role she had when alive. As Lady Stoneheart there is room for development.





Fierce said:


> Ned? Tyrion? Selmy?


Well, yeah...


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 4, 2012)

Has anyone here been bothered by numerous different characters in this series having the same name? For example, there have been two Balons (Swann and Greyjoy), at least two Jons (Snow and Connigton), six Aegon Targaryens, and more Brandon Starks than I can recall. That can be confusing for me at times, as I do not always know to which character the story is referring when using only their first name. Does anyone else dislike this tendency, or do you accept it as Martin's choice in writing his story?

Also, having mentioned the name Aegon, does anyone here believe that Martin included the twist of Aegon VI, Rhaegar's son, being alive, specifically in response to fans who believe that Jon Snow's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark? I believe that that is so.


----------



## Felix (Jan 4, 2012)

It's for destroying a common thrope where you don't name main characters with the same name as someone else.


----------



## The Imp (Jan 4, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Has anyone here been bothered by numerous different characters in this series having the same name? For example, there have been two Balons (Swann and Greyjoy), at least two Jons (Snow and Connigton), six Aegon Targaryens, and more Brandon Starks than I can recall. That can be confusing for me at times, as I do not always know to which character the story is referring when using only their first name. Does anyone else dislike this tendency, or do you accept it as Martin's choice in writing his story?



It's called context.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 4, 2012)

Felix said:


> It's for destroying a common thrope where you don't name main characters with the same name as someone else.



Yes, it is called the "One Steve Limit" at _TVTropes,_ but with all the other traditional fantasy tropes that Martin is defying, why would he need to defy a trope that is not specific to medieval fantasy, but prevalent across nearly all genres of fiction?


----------



## Felix (Jan 5, 2012)

Because he wants?
Dunno, but in my opinion, it gives you that feel that "It feels real despite being fiction".


----------



## KidTony (Jan 5, 2012)

in RL, everyone doesn't have a unique name. If you go through history to times where GRRM draws influence from, you see lots of people with the same name.


----------



## Gooba (Jan 5, 2012)

Kings Henry VIII, Edward VIII, George VI, Charles X, and Louis XVIII to just draw from England and France.


----------



## martryn (Jan 5, 2012)

Gooba?  I didn't know you posted in here.


----------



## Parallax (Jan 5, 2012)

He had a Rhaegar/Robert set for awhile


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 5, 2012)

You didn't note the eleven or so other times he's posted in this thread? For shame.


----------



## martryn (Jan 5, 2012)

> He had a Rhaegar/Robert set for awhile



Maybe I didn't recognize him with the weird user name and set.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 5, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Has anyone here been bothered by numerous different characters in this series having the same name? For example, there have been two Balons (Swann and Greyjoy), at least two Jons (Snow and Connigton), six Aegon Targaryens, and more Brandon Starks than I can recall. That can be confusing for me at times, as I do not always know to which character the story is referring when using only their first name. Does anyone else dislike this tendency, or do you accept it as Martin's choice in writing his story?


Yeah, it was so frustrating reading about Rhaegar in the previous book. I thought for sure that Rhaegar Targaryen was alive and enjoying himself in White Harbour... until the twist revelation that it was just a Frey . Also when Melisandre wanted to sacrifice the boy Edric, I thought she meant Dondarrion's squire.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 6, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Yeah, it was so frustrating reading about Rhaegar in the previous book. I thought for sure that Rhaegar Targaryen was alive and enjoying himself in White Harbour... until the twist revelation that it was just a Frey . Also when Melisandre wanted to sacrifice the boy Edric, I thought she meant Dondarrion's squire.



I still believe that Robert's illegitimate children, Gendry, Edric Storm, and Mya Stone, shall all play important roles in the final two books. Surely, Martin introduced them for reasons other than to give greater depth to Robert as a character by displaying his fondness for carnal pleasure?


----------



## martryn (Jan 6, 2012)

> I still believe that Robert's illegitimate children, Gendry, Edric Storm, and Mya Stone, shall all play important roles in the final two books. Surely, Martin introduced them for reasons other than to give greater depth to Robert as a character by displaying his fondness for carnal pleasure?



I see them as tools to be used by the other powers, nothing else.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 7, 2012)

martryn said:


> I see them as tools to be used by the other powers, nothing else.



Why are you being so negative? And to what "other powers" are you referring?


----------



## Corruption (Jan 7, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why are you being so negative? And to what "other powers" are you referring?



The people that actually have power that can manipulate them, but I don't even think that's going to happen. Roberts bastards aren't going to suddenly become players in the game of thrones when they don't have any power to begin with.


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## Terra Branford (Jan 7, 2012)

I thought the "million" Jons and Brandons made the story seem a lot more realistic, especially for the time he was meaning to write it in.

I don't think any of Robert's bastard children will play a part in the later stories (as their own, I mean). Well, _maybe_ Edric.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 7, 2012)

Sirloin Edric at the next R'hllor barbie. That's the important role he will play.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 7, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Sirloin Edric at the next R'hllor barbie. That's the important role he will play.



Davos was certain to send Edric away from Melisandre, so I do believe that that shall happen.

On the subject of Edric Storm, when Davos was before the Freys in _A Dance with Dragons,_ why did he not mention Edric Storm as proof that Cersei's children were from Jaime, rather than simply saying, "you have the word of Stannis Baratheon?" Even if Edric was not present at that moment, surely Davos could have mentioned that Edric and two other children, all born to different women, had Robert's hair and eye color, while Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen had the same coloration as Cersei and Jaime, was proof of their true heritage?


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 8, 2012)

Renly had the boy at Storm's End for years, and even he didn't make that connection. Robert and everyone else had the "proof" in front of them but didn't think anything of it. Stannis only figured it out when Jon Arryn did. I can't even remember if Stannis explained his research to anyone else. So discussing hair colour wouldn't have done Davos any good.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 8, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Renly had the boy at Storm's End for years, and even he didn't make that connection. Robert and everyone else had the "proof" in front of them but didn't think anything of it. Stannis only figured it out when Jon Arryn did. I can't even remember if Stannis explained his research to anyone else. So discussing hair colour wouldn't have done Davos any good.



In that case, I can understand why Davos did not mention Edric, but how is it possible that it took so long for Jon Arryn and the others to make the conclusion that Cersei's children were not Robert's? Were they unintelligent, or did they simply never consider that possibility?


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## martryn (Jan 8, 2012)

> Were they unintelligent, or did they simply never consider that possibility?



1.  Lots of babes start off blond and darken as they grow older.  My hair is a dark brown, but I was blond, blond, blond up until middle school.  

2.  Thinking i*c*st over husband...

3.  His bastard kids were out of sight, out of mind.  And it's not like a lot of people in King's Landing were familiar with the dark hair of the Baratheon house.  It's not like they could pull out a photo album.  How would anyone know?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 8, 2012)

martryn said:


> 1.  Lots of babes start off blond and darken as they grow older.  My hair is a dark brown, but I was blond, blond, blond up until middle school.
> 
> 2.  Thinking i*c*st over husband...
> 
> 3.  His bastard kids were out of sight, out of mind.  And it's not like a lot of people in King's Landing were familiar with the dark hair of the Baratheon house.  It's not like they could pull out a photo album.  How would anyone know?



That does make sense, so I suppose that it is actually not all that surprising that no one suspected Cersei and Jaime of committing i*c*st until their children were already quite old.


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## Terra Branford (Jan 8, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> In that case, I can understand why Davos did not mention Edric, but how is it possible that it took so long for Jon Arryn and the others to make the conclusion that Cersei's children were not Robert's? Were they unintelligent, or did they simply never consider that possibility?



It isn't impossible for a child to display certain traits/features by one parent's side over the other, at least from what I've seen its not impossible. Could be wrong though. :sweat


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## Nae'blis (Jan 8, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Baelor Breakspear had different hair colouring than his siblings. Hair alone doesn't prove anything. Regardless of who the Targaryens married, the silver always won out over the rest. And Baratheon isn't really that old of a house, no one can really say if the Stormlords colouring wins out over everything else.


DemonDragonJ said:


> That does make sense, so I suppose that it is actually not all that surprising that no one suspected Cersei and Jaime of committing i*c*st until their children were already quite old.


 "That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws... like gods and Targaryens."


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 8, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Baelor Breakspear had different hair colouring than his siblings. Hair alone doesn't prove anything. Regardless of who the Targaryens married, the silver always won out over the rest.


I believe Egg's brother Daeron "the drunk" was the same.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 10, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> "That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws... like gods and Targaryens."



Did not either Cersei or Jaime make that suggestion in _A Storm of Swords?_ What would have happened if they had actually pursued that course of action?


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## Nae'blis (Jan 10, 2012)

Jaime thought  that after his escape from Riverrun.





MrBlonde said:


> I believe Egg's brother Daeron "the drunk" was the same.


I always forget about that guy. Spent almost the entire first book sleeping off a hangover lol. But speaking of that guy, after he and Daenerys had prophetic dreams, I wonder if the Targaryens are also wargs and greenseers.


----------



## Shrike (Jan 11, 2012)

Just read Theon's first chapter from Winds. Cool. Kinda want moar. Common Martin, let Winds fly this or the next year.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 13, 2012)

I can't even bother to read it when I think the next books is coming out in seven years. Joe Abercrombie should fill the gap.


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## Shrike (Jan 13, 2012)

I ain't sure. I mean, Martin is an attention whore and a greedy friend, but he seemed to have had problems with the Dance the most since he had chapters written for the Winds more then year and a half back. I would guess that WoW will be released in a year and a half, or so. Just a random guess though, since we all know Martin. Laziest writer if I ever read one.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jan 13, 2012)

Oh my. It will be a terrible wait to sit through if it will take 7+ years to release. :sweat


----------



## Didi (Jan 13, 2012)

Big reason for the delay of DwD was him having trouble how to resolve the Meereenese knot, trying to properly time all those characters going there and dany's stuff was a bitch


Now that that's mostly resolved, I have good hope this book will come much swifter


----------



## The Imp (Jan 14, 2012)

Didi said:


> Big reason for the delay of DwD was him having trouble how to resolve the Meereenese knot, trying to properly time all those characters going there and dany's stuff was a bitch
> 
> 
> Now that that's mostly resolved, I have good hope this book will come much swifter



How has he solved it? Half of the characters journeying there haven't even arrived yet.


----------



## masamune1 (Jan 14, 2012)

Maybe the problem was getting them into position for when they arrived, not arriving itself.


----------



## Corruption (Jan 14, 2012)

Well most of the characters are practically there already except for one. However, I don't expect the next book at least for another 3 years.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jan 14, 2012)

I have faith - unfounded faith, faith without merit, faith that will probably be betrayed horribly - faith that the next book will be ready by the time the 4th season of the show is over.


----------



## Gedatsu (Jan 14, 2012)

The Imp said:


> How has he solved it? Half of the characters journeying there haven't even arrived yet.


What GRRM has to say about it himself (not super much):

Paris Conference Contemplates Libya's Future

Also I think this is a good thread about it the wear and tear on your car


----------



## The Imp (Jan 14, 2012)

Darkness_Surrounding said:


> Well most of the characters are practically there already except for one. However, I don't expect the next book at least for another 3 years.



Victarion isn't there yet, neither is Marwyn. Now Dany has to get back to Meereen as well. And Tyrion may have arrived at Meereen but he has yet to interact with any of the key players.



masamune1 said:


> Maybe the problem was getting them into position for when they arrived, not arriving itself.



I guess this is probably the case, but its just unsatisfying hearing so much about this problem going into ADwD with really nothing to show for it afterwards.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 14, 2012)

Fenix Down said:


> *Spoiler*: __



What awesome images! Nice find, Fenix Down!


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## Corruption (Jan 15, 2012)

The Imp said:


> Victarion isn't there yet, neither is Marwyn. Now Dany has to get back to Meereen as well. And Tyrion may have arrived at Meereen but he has yet to interact with any of the key players.



Yeah, I meant Marwyn is the only one we haven't heard about. Everyone else already reached Meereen or are right by. The fact that the Meereen plot is slow moving makes me think there might be an 8th book. I'm not sure how GRRM can finish the story in two more books.


----------



## masamune1 (Jan 15, 2012)

Darkness_Surrounding said:


> Yeah, I meant Marwyn is the only one we haven't heard about. Everyone else already reached Meereen or are right by. The fact that the Meereen plot is slow moving makes me think there might be an 8th book. I'm not sure how GRRM can finish the story in two more books.



By introducing enough people to the Stranger.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 15, 2012)

lol feeble gods of the Faith. I bet the faith of the seven was something the Great Other created.


----------



## jux (Jan 16, 2012)

Maaaaaaan Bran's chapters are so boring. I wish he would just die and put Hodor out of his misery.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Jan 16, 2012)

I like all of Bran's chapters.I only wish there were more in ADWD.


----------



## Fierce (Jan 16, 2012)

There were maybe 1 or 2 Bran chapters through all of the books that I found less than exciting. Otherwise, there's always some interesting development.


----------



## Corruption (Jan 16, 2012)

The Bran chapters during the first half of ACOK were boring, but then they turned into one of my favorite PoV's.


----------



## Erendhyl (Jan 16, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> I like all of Bran's chapters.I only wish there were more in ADWD.



Same. I'm really looking forward to TWOW showing more of him learning to be a greenseer.


----------



## KidTony (Jan 16, 2012)

I love all of the bran chapters. Some people hate chapters where it's 'slow', but those are some of my favorite chapters. First because there's usually a lot of world building, (in those early ACOCK chapters we got introduced to a lot of northern lords, th reeds, etc) and second because it sort of creates a 'safe' zone, in which i know that at least, for a couple of chapters, nothing horrible is going to happen to the POV or other characters i like.


----------



## Shrike (Jan 16, 2012)

I loved Bran's chapters. Actually, in Dance, he is one of the best POVs. The best one along with Theon I guess. Everyone in Essos were just boring. Besides Barristan, I guess. And Martin didn't even want to include his POV. Oh the laughs.


----------



## The Imp (Jan 16, 2012)

If you like the history behind Westeros, and world building in ASOIAF, you'll like most of Bran's chapters. If you're more interested in stuff going on in the present timeline, I can understand why people would find it boring.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jan 17, 2012)

Bran chapters in Dance were fantastic. You never get a sense of just how helpless and yet how powerful he could be until that wight attack. 

I liked that Nightfort chapter with him there too. You learn about its horrific history and the Rat Cook and a bunch of other creepy stuff, all the while, the atmosphere builds for the Slayer to pop up on them. Haha, I was gripping the book hard and sweating bullets during the build up. 

For the most part, Martin does some clever and awesome stuff with Bran.


----------



## jux (Jan 17, 2012)

My problem with Bran are the really long and repetitive warg dream sequences. And yeah, the fact that his chapters usually follow POVs where exciting shit has just happened so I get impatient. 

Just finished AFFC. As entertainting as it was I feel as if GRRM is really dragging the series. Not to mention it feels as if the story is totally veering from where he intially planned it to go from when he first started and I can't say I'm a big fan. I'm going to see how ADWD goes, but from reviews it seems to follow the same pattern. Hoping this series isn't going to turn into another Wheel of Time.


----------



## KidTony (Jan 17, 2012)

^The problem with WOT is that jordan stopped putting a quality product out there and relied on his name and previous success to sell mediocre and unecessary books. 

That's never happened and won't happen in ASOIF. Even if you don't like where the story is heading, the writing is still top notch.


----------



## Cyphon (Jan 17, 2012)

I know I am one of the weird ones but I never got that bored reading WoT. I have only read through it once and it was my first story on that scale so maybe it was just a noob excitement in me. 

That said, I find almost everything in ASoIaF interesting whether it be present timeline or history. Most books don't manage to get me to care much about their history but with Martin that is possibly the more interesting part. Between the Dragons and how cool the North sounded or how bad ass Robert and the former Kingsguard had seemed.....Yeah. The parts I have liked least are Sansa/Littlefinger shit which is funny because that seems to be a lot of people's favorite. I don't like them at all. 

In regards to Bran chapters I generally liked what happened in them in ADWD but I didn't get that excited for them. Something about them just wasn't what I had hoped for them to be.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 17, 2012)

eh, the first book felt a lot like David Eddings' _the Belgariad_ to me. Nyneave channels a lot of the energy of Polgara and such. It changes after that though, and after a while you are too emotionally invested in the characters to be truly critical of the writing.

Anyway, lol at not liking Bran chapters. If I were to consider every POV character, Bran is maybe the third most consistently good POV throughout the series.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jan 17, 2012)

I thought all of the Bran chapters were exciting, but then again I only finished ADWD about two times, started my third recently, so I might just have to reread to be extra sure.  *though I don't I'll find them boring, I love Bran.* 



jux said:


> Maaaaaaan Bran's chapters are so boring. I wish he would just die and put Hodor out of his misery.



:amazed


----------



## pfft (Jan 17, 2012)

Fenix Down said:


> I have faith - unfounded faith, faith without merit, faith that will probably be betrayed horribly - faith that the next book will be ready by the time the 4th season of the show is over.



some very interesting and good Dany fanarts. 

in fact i have an idea for my own fanart which includes drawing her when the dragons are being born.. i want to draw a dragon sucking on one of her titties and then the other ones along with the fire.. 

but even though i can see it in my head the execution doesnt always go as i plan it.  its an idea i am playing with. 

very art nouveau for the first one.. nice nice..


----------



## Corruption (Jan 20, 2012)

pfft said:


> in fact i have an idea for my own fanart which includes drawing her when the dragons are being born.. i want to draw a dragon sucking on one of her titties and then the other ones along with the fire..
> 
> but even though i can see it in my head the execution doesnt always go as i plan it.  its an idea i am playing with.



I'd be interested in seeing your fanart if you end up doing it. Have you done any ASOIF fanart before?


----------



## jux (Jan 20, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> :amazed



: 

/10char


----------



## Didi (Jan 21, 2012)

Who said Bran chapters were boring? They're great!
Though I guess the wolf parts are a bit much of the same, the rest is just usually excellent foreshadowing stuff or history of the world. 



PLUS HE'S GONNA BE A WIZARD FUCK YEAH


----------



## ShaolinExile (Jan 21, 2012)

I feel that Bran's chapters much earlier in the series tended to drag a bit, but as it's progressed he's really come into his own. I find quite a few characters a delight to read and all the conspiracy and symbolism to be quite engaging. The latest being me and my buddies theories of ADWD pertaining to 
*Spoiler*: __ 



John Snow's death scene and how much symbolism was in that last scene pertaining to prophecy.


 (MAJOR SPOILERS UNDER THE TAG. VIEW AT YOUR OWN RISK.)


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## Nae'blis (Jan 21, 2012)

I love how you say that but don't bother to say how and don't bother to show your working. What symbolism?

Bran is Azor Ahai! Just because I say so!


----------



## Corruption (Jan 21, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> I love how you say that but don't bother to say how and don't bother to show your working. What symbolism?



I think I know what symbolism SE is referring to when Jon gets shanked, regarding in the Azor Ahai prophecy.

_"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”_

Ser Patrek's banner is a star and there's blood on it from him being torn apart by Wun Wun. Bowen Marsh is crying (salt) and it appeared Jon's wounds were smoking.

I think it's a stretch, especially since GRRM put the star banner in the book from losing a bet. It's suppose to look like the Cowboys logo. Besides, Dany fits the prophecy the best, even though I do believe Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, obviously.


----------



## Didi (Jan 22, 2012)

Yeah I love the Jon is Azor Ahai theory. Makes even more sense considering that:

-When Melisandre asks her fires to see Azor Ahai (cuz she wants to see Stannis) all she gets to see is Jon
-Jon has dreams of him fighting off Others with a flaming sword

That, combined with the circumstances of his 'death' as mentioned above me, makes him a very likely candidate imo


----------



## ShaolinExile (Jan 22, 2012)

He hit our theorem on the nose. The problem being it was anlost bet that got the emblem inserted, but the other portions hold true. The smoking wound and the crying men, reborn amidst smoke and salt. And we didn't categorize the blood as being the reason for the red star bleeding as much as him being a Queen's Man and the additional red heraldry they sport.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 22, 2012)

Moqorro knows what he is about.

IIRC the Faith of the Seven is after the Age of Heroes. Did Azor Ahai worship the Old Gods or R'hillor? Seems more likely the Old Gods since the Children were involved too.


----------



## Didi (Jan 23, 2012)

Well, the Andals brought the Seven to Westeros after the Age of Heroes yes, but we can't know for sure if R'hllor was around as a faith yet or not. So there's really no saying as to that.


----------



## Taleran (Jan 30, 2012)

So I caved and started reading the books again both partly because I want to read A Dance of Dragons and because HBO did a great job with the first season, and I was in that position where scenes from the books were in my memory so the surprise for season 2/3/4 were not going to be there but I didn't recall enough to jump right into 5.

It is very interesting reading them again, currently I am like half way through Clash of Kings an what has becomes apparent on reread which characters Martin doesn't enjoy writing for, certain chapters in this book drag and I feel Martin kinda begins to go off the deep end into explaining the history of each Lord and all his sons to such an insane amount that it drives me insane.

He writes great prose at times but others it is just maddening and I keep thinking "get on with it"


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 30, 2012)

When I began reading this series, I was initially surprised by how Martin subverted many traditional medieval fantasy archetypes, notably by having many characters die, even when they seemed to be very important. However, after completing the first two books, I believed that I had begun to understand which characters would die and which would survive. Then, in _A Storm of Swords,_ both Robb and Joffrey died at their respective weddings, which caught me by surprise, despite having read the previous two books. I therefore determined that Martin deliberately wrote those scenes to surprise readers who had believed that they had learned his style, to keep them in suspense and wondering which characters would die next. Does anyone else here believe that?


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Jan 30, 2012)

Not to toot my own horn but I honestly didn't see Robb and Joffrey surviving _Storm_.Robb's storyline was going nowhere and Joffrey never served any purpose other than douchy antagonist,and by that point in time much bigger fish had entered the play.

What did surprise me was how fucking riveting their death scenes were.Needless to say,many bricks were shat.


----------



## The Imp (Jan 30, 2012)

Nope. He foreshadowed the Red wedding in Clash. We knew the Freys were treasonous fucks from the beginning. Robb was already making mistakes by the end of Clash, it only escalated in Storm. I don't think people could imagine the scope of the betrayal but everybody should have expected the Freys to turn eventually. Joffrey was never going to live out the entire series. He made too many enemies way too quickly. It was just a matter of where, when, and how.

If anything it's Jon's death that Martin forced.


----------



## Corruption (Jan 30, 2012)

Yeah, Martin planned the Red Wedding from almost the beginning. I thought I've read it was originally suppose to be the ending of the first book when it was still planned as a trilogy.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 30, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> Not to toot my own horn but I honestly didn't see Robb and Joffrey surviving _Storm_.*Robb's storyline was going nowhere* and Joffrey never served any purpose other than douchy antagonist,and by that point in time much bigger fish had entered the play.



Could you please elaborate on that idea? I certainly believed that if Robb had not died, he would have continued to be a major character in the series.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jan 30, 2012)

About Jon:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Eh, I don't think he's dead. The book would have confirmed it 100% if he was, instead it leaves it off. So I have a feeling there is a 80% chance he is not dead, but captured. 

BUT, If he really is dead, he will be brought back..._somehow._


----------



## martryn (Jan 30, 2012)

Yeah, I'd be surprised if Jon were dead for good.

Joffrey and Robb I saw coming.  The death of Jaime's hand, though...  And the hanging of Brienne.  Both took me by surprise.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jan 30, 2012)

Besides Dany and Tyrion, Jon appears to be among Martin's favorites. If he killed him, there would be a lot he had to answer about his character in the book.

I knew Joffrey would get his turn at death, it was impossible otherwise. But Robb surprised me. I thought they would be betrayed very badly and escape, but his death....it crushed me.


----------



## Erendhyl (Jan 30, 2012)

Robb's death caught me off guard _because_ he'd been screwing up beforehand. I'm so used to that being a common trait of protagonists, especially young ones without a lot of experience. Especially young ones who break their arranged marriages to marry girls with "a good heart."

Joffrey's didn't surprise me quite as much. I hadn't seen the exact manner coming, but I'd known he would be killed at some point. Robb though I expected to live.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 30, 2012)

On the subject of Jaime's hand, is anyone here disappointed that the person who severed it was apparently a minor character who shall likely never be seen again? I myself was hoping that Jaime would remember the person's name and face, and focus his efforts on exacting vengeance against that man by proving that he could fight as adequately with his off hand as he could with his favored hand, or would such a plot have been too predictable for this unconventional series?



Erendhyl said:


> Robb's death caught me off guard _because_ he'd been screwing up beforehand. I'm so used to that being a common trait of protagonists, especially young ones without a lot of experience. Especially young ones who break their arranged marriages to marry girls with "a good heart."



Those were my thoughts exactly regarding Robb, and I am certain that Martin did what he did specifically to surprise any readers who had been thinking such thoughts, as well.


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## Corruption (Jan 31, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> About Jon:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Of course he'll be back somehow. He is the prince that was promised and his is the song of ice and fire.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jan 31, 2012)

I said 
*Spoiler*: __ 



IF he is even dead. I don't believe he dies, but gets captured or something. *nods*


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 31, 2012)

Vargo Hoat is long dead. Brienne and the Mountain took care of him. As for the Dothraki,


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 4, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> About Jon:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I think he is dead and with that loophole he can escape his vows when Melisandre resurrects him. I see him being resurrected and in response to Ramsay's letter doing something about that situation.


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## martryn (Feb 4, 2012)

> I think he is dead and with that loophole he can escape his vows when Melisandre resurrects him. I see him being resurrected and in response to Ramsay's letter doing something about that situation.



I agree.  Now he can leave the Watch.  Jon being on the Wall was important to give us a POV up there, but he's a big enough character that he deserves to see some action elsewhere.  Now he can take Stannis up on his offer and everything.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 4, 2012)

jon is a rather bad character though.

Pre-victorian drone bad.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 4, 2012)

I don't know why catelyn ever begrudged his presence, he has at one point or another shown to have combined on himself all of the flaws of every other Stark put together, including Rickon and Catelyn.

But at least the real stark had an excuse for them.


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 5, 2012)

Qhorin Halfhand said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I think he is dead and with that loophole he can escape his vows when Melisandre resurrects him. I see him being resurrected and in response to Ramsay's letter doing something about that situation.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon would not turn his back on his vows now, even if he died and came back. If the offer by Stannis didn't, I don't think he would for anything else.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 5, 2012)

I also am hoping that Jon lives, but if he does, and is freed from his vows as a consequence of dying and being resurrects by Melisandre, would that not seem to be too convenient for a dark and cynical series such as this?


----------



## martryn (Feb 5, 2012)

What would be awesome is if Jon died and stayed dead.  And then Melisandre was the new POV at the Wall.


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 5, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I also am hoping that Jon lives, but if he does, and is freed from his vows as a consequence of dying and being resurrects by Melisandre, would that not seem to be too convenient for a dark and cynical series such as this?



Yes, it would be all to convenient. It would be nearly as bad as the Night's Watch changing their oaths and rules.


----------



## KidTony (Feb 5, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> jon is a rather bad character though.
> 
> Pre-victorian drone bad.



speak for yourself


----------



## Spartacus (Feb 6, 2012)

I saw a commercial in the subway this morning. It was for Game of Thrones translated into danish. I didn't recognize it at first and thought to myself...."Hmmm, that book looks familiar"

Strange seeing the book title in danish.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

KidTony said:


> speak for yourself



Let's see
If's there's a technicality involved he'll be destructively pig headed about it, like ned
He's inane like Sansa
He whines about his bastard pain like Arya
He's skilled at politics and games like Rob
He comands loyalty like Theon
He's bratty like Rickon
He whines at disapointments like Bran
He knows nothing, like Catelyn

No one likes the Snow


Now a less preachy red witch and a more guile hero mellissandre, that's what I'm interested in reading about


----------



## KidTony (Feb 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Let's see
> If's there's a technicality involved he'll be destructively pig headed about it, like ned
> He's inane like Sansa
> He whines about his bastard pain like Arya
> ...



Non of which makes him a bad character.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Feb 6, 2012)

One of my favorite moments in _Dance_ was when he beheaded Janos Slynt.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

Goes to show how lackluster Dance was.


----------



## Cyphon (Feb 6, 2012)

Dance wasn't great but dem Manderly's and dat beheading.....


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 6, 2012)

Was Slynt the one who Cersei sent to kill Jon? It has been some time since I read _A Feast for Crows,_ so I cannot recall who it was that Cersei sent to the Wall to kill Jon. If so, I shall admit that I am rather disappointed that that plot line ended in such an abrupt manner.


----------



## Erendhyl (Feb 6, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Dance wasn't great but dem Manderly's and dat beheading.....



Manderlys = _badass_. They were probably my favorite part of the book.


----------



## Nae'blis (Feb 6, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Was Slynt the one who Cersei sent to kill Jon? It has been some time since I read _A Feast for Crows,_ so I cannot recall who it was that Cersei sent to the Wall to kill Jon. If so, I shall admit that I am rather disappointed that that plot line ended in such an abrupt manner.


"Drink with the dwarf, it's said, and you wake up at the Wall". Cersei didn't send him, and Slynt had absolutely no desire to be in the Nights Watch. IIRC, Slynt was only important in that plot insofar as Tywin (?) wanted him selected as Lord Commander. Nothing more.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

I've stated more than once, Bolton, Manderly, Martel and god forgive me, Davos, are the only things actually worth reading in the series any more
I weep for the chance to read some sweet sandy relief from the iron grip of boredom of the kingslandian afairs

And even the bolton chapters are only half bearable considering how little actual bolton they put in it


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

When something as minor as an execution becomes some sort of high point to a seven hundred pages book that took the better part of a decade to build, something has gone horribly wrong


----------



## Cyphon (Feb 6, 2012)

Banhammer stop hatin. Arya is pretty cool.


----------



## Shrike (Feb 6, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Was Slynt the one who Cersei sent to kill Jon? It has been some time since I read _A Feast for Crows,_ so I cannot recall who it was that Cersei sent to the Wall to kill Jon. If so, I shall admit that I am rather disappointed that that plot line ended in such an abrupt manner.



Really? How would you have it end? I thought it was pretty good.

Not to mention, her sending that guy to kill Bronn was way more retarded.


----------



## Shrike (Feb 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> When something as minor as an execution becomes some sort of high point to a seven hundred pages book that took the better part of a decade to build, something has gone horribly wrong



I don't see the hate guys. I only see the truth. Nevertheless, the North was a good read in Dance. Theon's POV was by far the best writing the book had to offer.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Banhammer stop hatin. Arya is pretty cool.



Here's the thing though, all the starks are deeply flawed, and theirs is a tragic story, but had an excuse for their flaws, and redeeming qualities
Even fucking sansa, even though she doesn't have enough of them.
And at least with sansa, interesting shit happens around her all the time, while we get littlefinger plot added on by proxy.

Snow has none.
That's how bad he is. Beneath Sansa tier


----------



## Nae'blis (Feb 6, 2012)

At least everyone acknowledges Jon is shit as a character and a person.

I hope I never see that ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) again, but being the Stu he will be revived next book,


----------



## Han Solo (Feb 6, 2012)

I came to like Jon after Dance actually. His character arc was boring as shit during the first three books though.


----------



## Cyphon (Feb 6, 2012)

Best character who never got a POV was Syrio Forel. Can we all at least agree on that


----------



## The Imp (Feb 6, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Best character who never got a POV was Syrio Forel. Can we all at least agree on that



Nope.

There are a ton of awesome characters who didn't get POVs. Syrio isnt even worth mentioning.


----------



## Cyphon (Feb 6, 2012)

The Imp said:


> Nope.
> 
> There are a ton of awesome characters who didn't get POVs. Syrio isnt even worth mentioning.



I hate you.


........A lot.


----------



## KidTony (Feb 7, 2012)

Banhammr, you negged me because i disagreed with you? Petty.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Feb 7, 2012)

A Bloodraven or Marwyn the Mage POV would be


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 7, 2012)

really wish  the bastard would split his books into two volumes at the least




KidTony said:


> Banhammr, you negged me because i disagreed with you? Petty.


maybe I did. I usually rep and neg randomly. 

of course, people that somehow managed to climb into my ignore list have a rather really tough time getting green over red.


----------



## Didi (Feb 7, 2012)

Erendhyl said:


> Manderlys = _badass_. They were probably my favorite part of the book.



THE NORTH REMEMBERS


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 8, 2012)

I would have loved to learn more of Syrio, but I don't think a POV would fit very well. 



MrBlonde said:


> One of my favorite moments in _Dance_ was when he beheaded Janos Slynt.



I just begun another read through, but currently that is one of my favorite moments as well.


----------



## Corruption (Feb 8, 2012)

How about an Oberyn Martell POV? Nah, I don't think readers could have handled such awesomeness from his POV.


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Feb 8, 2012)

I really want a Thoros of Mer pov - you'd get some great anecdotes of his parties with Robert, going round with the brohood, and serving under the vengeful Lady Stoneheart while trying to instill a righteous sense of manly justice within Gendry. 

A Gendry pov would be sweet too.


----------



## Misao (Feb 14, 2012)

Such a big fan of these series. I only discovered them a year ago though, but took me less than 5 months to read every book to the most recent one.


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 15, 2012)

Same with me, HollyGolightly. I had two books lying in the house, but I never bothered reading them until last year, now I'm a BIG fan. xD


----------



## Kαrin (Feb 15, 2012)

I finally started to read this series last week, borrowed 'Game of Thrones' from library. So far, really good.


----------



## Misao (Feb 15, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> Same with me, HollyGolightly. I had two books lying in the house, but I never bothered reading them until last year, now I'm a BIG fan. xD



Me too. I need to get rid of this bad habit of mine I have a couple of others bought ages ago and I kept on ignoring 'em. Going to pick one soon.


----------



## Terra Branford (Feb 15, 2012)

@Kαrin:
Awesome, welcome! Welcome! Be careful here and if you are watching, the TV show thread as well. Lots of spoilers are posted here. 

@HollyGolightly:
When it happens to me, I force myself to read. xD


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 15, 2012)

KidTony said:


> Banhammr, you negged me because i disagreed with you? Petty.



Believe me, I know exactly how you feel on that subject.

As for the current topic of discussion, I started reading this series on the advice of a friend, only a year or two ago, shortly before the release of _A Dance with Dragons,_ so I did not experience the long wait that most other readers did, although I certainly did experience the long wait for _Inheritance_ by Christopher Paolini. Initially, I was uncertain about starting a new series, when I was reading numerous other authors, but I am very glad that I took the time to immerse myself in this series, as it is definitely one of the most original and best-written series that I have read in many years.

On the subject of characters who never had chapters from their viewpoints, I find it to be very regrettable that Melisandre had only a single chapter from her viewpoint. Does anyone else here hope for more chapters from her perspective in the next book? I certainly do.


----------



## Didi (Feb 16, 2012)

I definitely want more Melisandre chapters too. I really like her character, and I thought here POV was good to explain more about her.


----------



## Misao (Feb 18, 2012)

Didi said:


> I definitely want more Melisandre chapters too. I really like her character, and I thought here POV was good to explain more about her.



Yeah, I find her more interesting than a few characters as well, hopefully she will get more screen-time on the next book.

Now.. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I do wonder if Jon is dead. It would be stupid to kill a character we grew to like and with so much potential. Part me of doubts it, but you never know.


----------



## Shrike (Feb 18, 2012)

Most of you are lucky. I read the first book nine years back. Had to wait on both Feast and Dance. The wait on Dance was so long that I forgot many things which happened, so I had to re-read. 

As for Melisandre POV, I hate to admit that I was slightly disappointed. Thought she was schemer of grander sort and was just using Stannis to find the true AA or some shit like that. She actually does think Stannis is the AA :| Not that the chapter was bad, I just expected more.

And it is depressing to say that the last two books on which I had to wait so long were not as good as the first three. SoS is still the best of the series.


----------



## Misao (Feb 18, 2012)

God I always forget about the people who had to wait all that time, lol. Pretty much like me, why do this had to end in such cliffhanger 

I agree completely with you. I had high expectations for the last book, Melisandre, maybe something about Jon Snow real identity.. I was naive enough to think I would see Dragon vs Dragon fight lol, but it was a fine read indeed.


----------



## Parallax (Feb 18, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Most of you are lucky. I read the first book nine years back. Had to wait on both Feast and Dance. The wait on Dance was so long that I forgot many things which happened, so I had to re-read.
> 
> As for Melisandre POV, I hate to admit that I was slightly disappointed. Thought she was schemer of grander sort and was just using Stannis to find the true AA or some shit like that. She actually does think Stannis is the AA :| Not that the chapter was bad, I just expected more.
> 
> And it is depressing to say that the last two books on which I had to wait so long were not as good as the first three. SoS is still the best of the series.



I think that's why I liked that chapter, it's because it played against expectations which is something the series does very well of.


----------



## Shrike (Feb 18, 2012)

Parallax said:


> I think that's why I liked that chapter, it's because it played against expectations which is something the series does very well of.



Surprising the readers doesn't always equal to good writing, just so we make it clear. 

For example, no one in the whole multiverse of fuck would want to bother reading through Quentin's chapters only to get that kind of conclusion.


----------



## Parallax (Feb 18, 2012)

it's also not exactly bad writing 

and yeah Quentin's chapters were kinda pointless but there needs to be some kinda bridge needed for bring his family involved in with Dany.  Martin could have gone a better way through it though.  

I did love what happened to him though


----------



## martryn (Feb 19, 2012)

I want to read more about the Martell's.  Sorta hoped that Quentin was a little less retarded.  Loved his two little bodyguards or whatever, though.  

I think the first three books are better than the last two because of the way Martin tried to split shit up in them.


----------



## Shrike (Feb 19, 2012)

martryn said:


> I want to read more about the Martell's.  Sorta hoped that Quentin was a little less retarded.  Loved his two little bodyguards or whatever, though.
> 
> I think the first three books are better than the last two because of the way Martin tried to split shit up in them.



Quentin was terrible. Not only was he really stupid himself, but his chapters were so boring I just wanted to skip them. In the end, all those chapters were pointless. Martin could have just let us have two of his last chapters and no one would be at loss

Speaking of which, I think that the same thing made the last book worse then the first three. Not only because of the splitting, but because in Dance, Martin shows us how everyone travels, does nothing, etc. Tyrion killed me in this book because his chapters were mostly boring when compared to when he was in the Landing. Daenerys was also terrible because again, for half of the book, nothing happened. Not to mention that, at least with all those other cliffhangers I expected her to get to somewhere too, but she only met a goddamn Dothraki Khal. Really? For more then 1000 pages book, Dany only fucks Daario and sits on the throne doing nothing, only to fly off on Drogon in the end of one chapter and return in Neverland in the end. Really?

North was different in this book. It had everything whereas Essos had nothing. North had the best POV, Theon. Easily the best written character by Martin. Bran was great, too. Jon also became boring after a while since the chapters became so similar that it made little to no progress. As someone else mentioned in this thread, when one of the most memorable moments of a book that has more then 1000 pages is beheading of Janos Slynt, you have to put a goddamn finger on your head and think about it.

All in all, my problem with the last two books is that I feel Martin is dragging shit too much and I feel that there is no way to finish the series in the next two books, though I would really like to be wrong.



Parallax said:


> it's also not exactly bad writing
> 
> and yeah Quentin's chapters were kinda pointless but there needs to be some kinda bridge needed for bring his family involved in with Dany.  Martin could have gone a better way through it though.
> 
> I did love what happened to him though



It actually does equal to bad writing sometimes. You never read/watched/played a work that had some kind of twist that made you go "The fuck? They thought this was clever? This shit is horrible."? Good for you, if so.

I, for example, felt disgusted for reading all those Quentin chapters when he died. Not that I didn't like the way he died, it's just that he took so much space which could have been used, you know, for some goddamn progress maybe.


----------



## martryn (Feb 20, 2012)

Meh.  The book made the progress it was supposed to, I guess.  Considering it wasn't ever supposed to be a book, I bet Martin through some shit in just to take up space.  Whatever.  I enjoyed Quentin's chapters.  Sometimes you read something not so much for the plot, but for the development or a character.  Quentin came, he happened, and he died, all in one book.  Nice little self-contained story within a story.  Now we know what Quentin was like so further Martell chapters might make more sense, and we learned what a stupid bitch Dany has become.  Whatevs.  

You don't read HP Lovecraft and expect every page to have some mind blowing plot element in it.  You don't read Stephen R Donaldson without entire chapters of inner reflection.  You don't read Tolkien without pages full of background history shit that doesn't effect the story and will never be fully explained within the context of his work.  I'm ok with reading Martin's prose and enjoying it for what it is.  I didn't have high hopes for this book, and it always felt like a filler book to me, so I'll take it in that context and be satisfied.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm hardpressed to remember anything of relevance
It developed little and less and thoroughly failed to capture a proper gentleman's atention
I'm done with worldbuilding one chin grease drip at a time, I was done with back since the last book.
Hell, the Martell's who along with davos bolton and manderly are the last remotely interesting plot points in this  book are only interesting because they are boring as holy hell for all of their chapters untill the prince cam and WHAMS us into showing how vital all of that boredom was.


Fucking turtle mating. Good god.


----------



## KidTony (Feb 20, 2012)

martryn said:


> Meh.  The book made the progress it was supposed to, I guess.  Considering it wasn't ever supposed to be a book, I bet Martin through some shit in just to take up space.  Whatever.  I enjoyed Quentin's chapters.  Sometimes you read something not so much for the plot, but for the development or a character.  Quentin came, he happened, and he died, all in one book.  Nice little self-contained story within a story.  Now we know what Quentin was like so further Martell chapters might make more sense, and we learned what a stupid bitch Dany has become.  Whatevs.
> 
> *You don't read HP Lovecraft and expect every page to have some mind blowing plot element in it.  You don't read Stephen R Donaldson without entire chapters of inner reflection.  You don't read Tolkien without pages full of background history shit that doesn't effect the story and will never be fully explained within the context of his work.  *I'm ok with reading Martin's prose and enjoying it for what it is.  I didn't have high hopes for this book, and it always felt like a filler book to me, so I'll take it in that context and be satisfied.



I don't read anything. I listen to it.


----------



## Gedatsu (Feb 20, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Daenerys was also terrible because again, for half of the book, nothing happened. Not to mention that, at least with all those other cliffhangers I expected her to get to somewhere too, but she only met a goddamn Dothraki Khal. Really? For more then 1000 pages book, Dany only fucks Daario and sits on the throne doing nothing, only to fly off on Drogon in the end of one chapter and return in Neverland in the end. Really?


A lot happened in Dany's chapters. She tries long and hard to rule like a gentle and fair queen, only to realize that nothing she tries is working. She tries to tie her dragons down, she tries to make piece with the other cities, she marries a guy, she grudgingly accepts the fighting pits to be opened again, etc. But no matter what, it all goes to hell for her.

Sure it's a long process, but it was required for her to start kicking ass again. Only this time, with a stronger focus of what must be done, and less concern for some sheep woman getting raped.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 21, 2012)

Positives of ADWD:

The Reek/Theon storyline is one of the best that GRRM has ever wrote, amazing. 

Stannis and Jon storylines are pretty interesting.

Finally Aegon and Jon Connington do what Danny hasn't done yet and do it in just one book and significantly change the political landscape. 

The epilogue was pretty interesting.

Bran chapters were pretty good. 

Likewise with Victarion chapters.

Negatives:

Essos isn't as good as the rest of the storyline. There is too much bloat there and the Essos storyline is too uninteresting waiting for Tyrion to reach Mereen and Danny's ruling in Mereen going nowhere. Both Tyrion's and Danny's chapters were kind of disappointing to me and there are a lot of them. Quentin's chapters are also kind of boring and disappointing. He seems to be a character who was introduced just to be killed off and make Dorne angry towards Danny.


----------



## Cyphon (Feb 21, 2012)

I see positives of ADWD and no mention of the Manderlys. Post invalid.

Although actually I agree with most of the post.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 21, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> I see positives of ADWD and no mention of the Manderlys. Post invalid.
> 
> Although actually I agree with most of the post.



Actually, I agree. I just forgot to mention that. Inexcusable, I know.


----------



## Kage (Feb 21, 2012)

Decided to check out the books after watching Season 1 of the HBO series.

Just finished reading the first. The Show is pretty faithful to the first book for the most part. Barely started the second. gotta say i'm never too thrilled about bran, catelyn and now theon chapters :/


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Feb 21, 2012)

All i get from reading this thread is that i shouldn't read spoilers. The thing that seemed to blow most of you away like Reek and Captain Commander Jon smacking a bitch are things that i knew where gonna happen from the spoilers. Other things like the Prince and the 3 eyed crow where speculated on so heavily on the westeros boards that i wasn't at all surprised when it happened. When we find out J= R+L do you think ANYONE will be surprised ?

I thought Jon's story was the strongest in the book; he ruled every bit as well and ably as expected but he was doomed form the start. The North delivered overall. 

I like Tyrion as much as the next guy but he should really be dead by now. Its just stretching too much credibility. Really enjoyed his river journey though. 

As for Dany well at least her story brought us some Barristan, and that's all i will say about that. 

To be honest Dance turned out alot better then i thought it would after Feast i was expecting it to suck monkey balls but it was only partially sucky and the parts that sucked were probably necessary. I don't think Martin has lost his plot as badly as Jordan did but at least Jordan always did endings well and his final book at least has a chance of ending perfectly. But whatever Martin does now; however good his next two books the Others will never feel like an apocalyptic threat.


----------



## KidTony (Feb 22, 2012)

Martin has not lost his plot anywhere near as bad as Jordan did. I would argue he hasn't lost his plot at all, but even feast which was his weakest book was still incredibly well writen. Jordan put up entire 800 pages books where not a single damn thing happened.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 22, 2012)

Was anyone else disappointed that Sandor never had a chance to settle his grudge with his brother, Gregor? I certainly was, but at least Oberyn Martell was able to settle his own grudge with Ser Gregor.

Also, on that subject, Commander Jeor Mormont had a falling-out with his son, Jorah, but he died before the two of them could ever meet to reconcile their differences. Is anyone here disappointed that they never were able to resolve their own familial strife?


----------



## Cyphon (Feb 22, 2012)

KidTony said:


> but even feast which was his weakest book



From the last time I read through I think I liked Feast better than Kings. Would need to read through again though to be sure.



DemonDragonJ said:


> Was anyone else disappointed that Sandor never had a chance to settle his grudge with his brother, Gregor? I certainly was, but at least Oberyn Martell was able to settle his own grudge with Ser Gregor.



A fight between those 2 would be bad ass but I am not really disappointed. It isn't in Martins nature to make things work out so neat and clean and that is what is great about his books.

There is also an off chance the battle can still happen. Gregor is still alive in zombie form and there is a chance that Sandor is alive as well based on some guesses I have heard.



> Also, on that subject, Commander Jeor Mormont had a falling-out with his son, Jorah, but he died before the two of them could ever meet to reconcile their differences. Is anyone here disappointed that they never were able to resolve their own familial strife?



No. They aren't important enough for me to care to see that happen tbh. I think it was enough that the old bear told John about it and such. 

Like I said above, it would be too clean for Martin.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 22, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> It isn't in Martins nature to make things work out so neat and clean and that is what is great about his books.
> 
> Like I said above, it would be too clean for Martin.



That is not necessarily true; Doran disrupting Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella was certainly "unclean," and, when Oberyn apparently had defeated Gregor, Gregor having sufficient energy to kill Oberyn was _definitely_ an instance of "not everything being nice and clean."

On that subject, if events in Martin's writing rarely work out as expected, where is the sense of dramatic fulfillment for the audience? How can the story feel complete and full, rather than incomplete and empty? Surely, even in a world as dark and violent as Martin's, there must be the traditional elements of conflict and resolution? Otherwise, the story feels incomplete to me.


----------



## Cyphon (Feb 22, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That is not necessarily true; Doran disrupting Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella was certainly "unclean," and, when Oberyn apparently had defeated Gregor, Gregor having sufficient energy to kill Oberyn was _definitely_ an instance of "not everything being nice and clean."



"It *isn't* in Martins nature to make things work out so neat and clean"



> Surely, even in a world as dark and violent as Martin's, there must be the traditional elements of conflict and resolution? Otherwise, the story feels incomplete to me.



He sprinkles it in. Arya getting away and training. Bran and Rickon surviving and getting away. Same for Sansa. Joffrey, Cersei, Jamie all getting what was coming to them etc....


----------



## Nae'blis (Feb 22, 2012)

Jon... just that ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) Jon. He will be revived; he will be Rhaegar's son, he will save the day, and the cunt will probably be Azor Ahai too. And this is all before he takes Winterfell from the rightful heirs and probably becomes king of the universe. Fuck him.

Has that ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) ever failed in something meaningful he attempted?


----------



## Didi (Feb 22, 2012)

Well,


He didn't become a ranger


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Feb 22, 2012)

He failed at keeping true to his vows


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Feb 23, 2012)

KidTony said:


> Martin has not lost his plot anywhere near as bad as Jordan did. I would argue he hasn't lost his plot at all, but even feast which was his weakest book was still incredibly well writen. Jordan put up entire 800 pages books where not a single damn thing happened.



Not as bad as Jordan sure but he definitely did lose it; he planned everything around a 5 year time skip and when he realized that wouldn't work he spent ten years backpeddaling and giving us that utterly shit Essos storyline. And like i said, now that there is no major buildup for the Others and that they will have to be dealt with in a single book then there is no way they can be an apocalyptic force they were promised and hyped to be. 



Nae'blis said:


> Jon... just that ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) Jon. He will be revived; he will be Rhaegar's son, he will save the day,



Almost certainly. 



Nae'blis said:


> and the cunt will probably be Azor Ahai too.



Maybe but right now i think Dany is the favourite for AA. 



Nae'blis said:


> And this is all before he takes Winterfell from the rightful heirs and probably becomes king of the universe.



No. Way. In. Hell. 

I have faith in Jon; despite what idiots say he hasn't broken his vows yet and i don't think he will use a small technicality like death to do so later on and he certainly won't do it at his brothers expense. 



Nae'blis said:


> Fuck him.



Oh yes that's another one....how many women want his dick now. 



Nae'blis said:


> Has that ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) ever failed in something meaningful he attempted?



So you don't count getting assassinated by your men a failure ?

This what i don't get; on one hand he is accused of being whiny and emo and on the other of being perfect. Sure there is no way he should have gotten longclaw and even less that Stannis should have come at precisely the right time to save him but that's Martins fault as a writer not Jon's as a character. 



Fenix Down said:


> He failed at keeping true to his vows


----------



## Shrike (Feb 23, 2012)

Essos ruined a lot of things. It expanded the story needlessly and distracted the readers from Westeros. Which sucks donkey scrotum.


----------



## masamune1 (Feb 23, 2012)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Not as bad as Jordan sure but he definitely did lose it; he planned everything around a 5 year time skip and when he realized that wouldn't work he spent ten years backpeddaling and giving us that utterly shit Essos storyline. And like i said, now that there is no major buildup for the Others and *that they will have to be dealt with in a single book* then there is no way they can be an apocalyptic force they were promised and hyped to be.



Don't you mean two books?


----------



## Parallax (Feb 23, 2012)

at least two books with the possibility of there maybe being one more


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 23, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> "It *isn't* in Martins nature to make things work out so neat and clean"



If Sandor fought Gregor, intent on settling their grudge, but found himself unable to match his brother's size and strength, and thus was killed by Gregor, I would not consider that to be "neat and clean;" would you?



Spike_Shrike said:


> Essos ruined a lot of things. It expanded the story needlessly and distracted the readers from Westeros. Which sucks donkey scrotum.



I disagree with you; although the storylines in Westeros are clearly the main storylines of this series, the storylines on Essos help to make Martin's world seem more vast and realistic, giving greater depth to the characters, locations, and events. I do agree that, at times, the story could become tedious, but that happened over in Wetseros, as well, in my mind.


----------



## masamune1 (Feb 23, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> If Sandor fought Gregor, intent on settling their grudge, but found himself unable to match his brother's size and strength, and thus was killed by Gregor, I would not consider that to be "neat and clean;" would you?



I think he meant you misread what he said.

Cyphon said 



> "It *isn't* in Martins nature to make things work out so neat and clean"



But you said



> That is not necessarily true; Doran disrupting Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella was certainly "unclean," and, when Oberyn apparently had defeated Gregor, Gregor having sufficient energy to kill Oberyn was definitely an instance of "not everything being nice and clean."



As if you read it as



> "It *is* in Martins nature to make things work out so neat and clean"



So he's saying that Martin *doesn't* make things nice and clean, and on purpose. He's not saying what you seem to think he's saying.


----------



## The Imp (Feb 23, 2012)

He's probably referring to Book 7. I wouldn't expect the Others to invade before mid/late book 6.


----------



## Cyphon (Feb 23, 2012)

Masa has me read right.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 23, 2012)

masamune1 said:


> I think he meant you misread what he said.
> 
> So he's saying that Martin *doesn't* make things nice and clean, and on purpose. He's not saying what you seem to think he's saying.



I do not understand; I fail to see how the two examples that I provided work against Cyphon's words.


----------



## Psychic (Mar 1, 2012)

Storm of Swords is my fav because of the Arya and Gendry scenes! Her in that acorn dress, LOL.


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 2, 2012)

@Spike_Shrike: I've suffered waiting for releases of books before, though of course it wasn't anything 8+. xD

@prunelle:

*Spoiler*: __ 





Don't worry, Jon won't be dead. To me, it seems like Tyrion, Bran, Dany and Jon (maybe even Arya?) are Martin's favorites. They won't die, especially Jon. Well, at least I mean Jon has not yet died. He could in the next book.


----------



## Incanta (Mar 4, 2012)

SDF1 said:


> This is a fantastic series... but I have one question.
> 
> What ever happened to Ned Stark's youngest son?  I don't remember the last book even mentioning him.



Rickard is a sort of ephemeral creature. Everyone forgets about him.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Mar 5, 2012)

^You mean Rickon.


----------



## pfft (Mar 5, 2012)

I am too much of a lazy dick to quote DemonDragonJ but what he and other have said about *The Hound/Sandor v The Mountain/Gregor* 

I personally took the account of The Hounds end being apart of humanity.. not everyone is going to get vindication, not everything is going to have deep meaning. It would have seemed cliche if everything went as we all expected it to so for that reason I was fine with them having never fought one another. 

The books humanity is richest in its flaws more than anything else sometimes.


----------



## Shrike (Mar 5, 2012)

^That. Sandor's death was perfect. Now, I know it's a shame and that many people believe he will live, but I'd be happier if he met his end there. It was epic. His words with Arya, him being left under that tree. Really epic.

Do I need to say that if he somehow became some hero or fought Gregor to death and won would be bullshit?


----------



## Devil King Sanji (Mar 6, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> ^That. Sandor's death was perfect. Now, I know it's a shame and that many people believe he will live, but I'd be happier if he met his end there. It was epic. His words with Arya, him being left under that tree. Really epic.
> 
> Do I need to say that if he somehow became some hero or fought Gregor to death and won would be bullshit?



There's a theory that Sandor is actually the Gravedigger... I forgot in which book.

Here


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 6, 2012)

Blood Dawn said:


> There's a theory that Sandor is actually the Gravedigger... I forgot in which book.
> 
> Here



The book you are referring to would be Feast.


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## martryn (Mar 6, 2012)

If Sandor is the gravedigger, than that's great and I hope it never comes up again.  Perfect resolution.


----------



## hehey (Mar 6, 2012)

This might sound kind of wierd, but if Bronn died id be really really mad... hes just so awesome.


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## martryn (Mar 6, 2012)

Bronn is my favorite character.


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## Terra Branford (Mar 6, 2012)

About Bran...I was re-reading ADWD and I came upon this part again:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Page 178:

"You will never walk again, Bran," the pale lips promised, "but you will fly."

It made me think, could the "fly" part have something to do with the dragons? This is just something I thought of, but I'd like to hear what you guys might think about it or what might already exist about it. Is it at all possible that it is referencing to the dragons in even the slightest?


----------



## Kage (Mar 6, 2012)

midway through book II when i first posted (about 2 pages back) and now i'm starting the 4th. soon spoilers won't be a problem


----------



## Fierce (Mar 6, 2012)

I came to the same theory, Terra, when I first read the book.


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## Terra Branford (Mar 6, 2012)

Please refresh my memory, when did Bran show he did not understand what Jaime and Cersei were doing?


----------



## Fierce (Mar 7, 2012)

I don't specifically remember what went through Bran's head at that point, but he was probably confused about why a brother and sister were having sex.


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## Terra Branford (Mar 7, 2012)

That is probably it, then. Also, sorry I didn't see your post Fierce. Its good I'm not crazy and read into everything too much. 

I got another something:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Do you think, maybe, Bran will jump into the skin of one of the dragons?


----------



## FitzChivalry (Mar 7, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think, maybe, Bran will jump into the skin of one of the dragons?


It's an interesting question, and somewhat of a hot topic that I think will gain steam in a few years. It's also a question GRRM pointedly did not answer in an interview I saw on YouTube, so read into that what you will.


----------



## Corruption (Mar 7, 2012)

The quote about being able to fly is too vague, but possibly warging a dragon did cross my mind.



DemonDragonJ said:


> One thing, and a rather minor one, about which I am wondering is: why did Bran not comprehend that Jaime and Cersei were engaging in sexual intercourse when he discovered them doing so at the beginning of the first book, when he later revealed to Osha that he understood such issues, despite his young age, using copulating dogs or horses around the castle as an example? That seems to be an inconsistency, to me.



Because he never saw animals fingerbang each other. They never actually started having sex yet. Bran noticed they were kissing, but was confused by what else was happening.

Luckily I have the book right next to me. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



There were soft, wet sounds. Bran realized they were kissing. He watched, wide-eyed and frightened, his breath tight in his throat. The man had a hand down between her legs, and he must have been hurting her there because the woman started to moan, low in her throat. "Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it. Oh, please..."


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 7, 2012)

@FitzChivalry:

Ugh, years.  Do you have a link to that interview? I would enjoy watching it. 

@Corruption:
That's what I thought, vague. But I couldn't shake it and had to share. I hope its true, it would be interesting and Bran deserves a (super) epic story.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 7, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> Please refresh my memory, when did Bran show he did not understand what Jaime and Cersei were doing?



Bran perceived their activity as "wrestling," which may be accurate, from a certain, figurative, perspective, but is not literally the same thing.

*EDIT:* Corruption's post provides the best answer to my original question.


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 11, 2012)

Another wild question that I have been thinking over since I watched the show, before I read of course.


*Spoiler*: __ 





Is it at all possible Gendry is Cersei and Robert's son? The whole "my mother was blond, she died blah blah blah" thing made me suspicious, and it made it worse when I remembered Cersei telling Cate her first son died.


----------



## Fierce (Mar 11, 2012)

Cersei said she didn't give birth to any child of Robert's.


----------



## Erendhyl (Mar 11, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> Another wild question that I have been thinking over since I watched the show, before I read of course.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I don't think so. In the second book, I remember Tyrion commenting (in his narration) that Cersei should have had just one dark-haired child of Robert's so that her kids wouldn't all be conspicuously blond, but that she just wouldn't be Cersei if she did. From what I recall, Cersei having a son who died was HBO-only.

I think Gendry mentioning that his mom was blond was just supposed to be another hint that dark-haired Robert and blond Cersei should produce dark-haired kids like Gendry, not three blonds.


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 11, 2012)

Ah! That makes a lot of sense, Erendhyl! This series is definitely a series that needs to be read more than just once or twice. I've found it hard to remember a lot of it, and oftentimes I mismatch it by accident. *sigh*

Thanks for the answers guys.


----------



## Corruption (Mar 20, 2012)

Here's part of an interview with GRRM where he reads an excerpt from a Victarion chapter from TWOW.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlJblxV3QHQ&list=PL18A2864FCACD30CA&index=2&feature=plcp[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## masamune1 (Mar 20, 2012)

Oh yeah, I remember seeing that.

Fat bastard said he didn't like the _Thor_ movie.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2012)

Thor movie was pretty bad. Can't blame him.


----------



## pfft (Mar 20, 2012)

lol thor was a shit film.. so its understandable


----------



## Kage (Mar 20, 2012)

Corruption said:


> Here's part of an interview with GRRM where he reads an excerpt from a Victarion chapter from TWOW.


had to stop it before it got to that point but otherwise i enjoyed the interview.

he addressed several things that were right on the mark for me particularly the part about characters who may not be likeable but at least are interesting.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2012)

I am not a writer so I don't think about much from that side of it but I particularly enjoyed the point about how tough/limiting it can be to try and write a character like Bran. Both because of his age and because of his mobility issues. Definitely gave me a newer level of appreciation for how tough all of the different POVs can become when considering all of the different quirks, traits, ages, races etc...Of different characters. You really have to set your mind in that persons frame in order to make it turn out well.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Mar 20, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> I am not a writer so I don't think about much from that side of it but I particularly enjoyed the point about how tough/limiting it can be to try and write a character like Bran. Both because of his age and because of his mobility issues. Definitely gave me a newer level of appreciation for how tough all of the different POVs can become when considering all of the different quirks, traits, ages, races etc...Of different characters. You really have to set your mind in that persons frame in order to make it turn out well.


Agreed.The warging scenes I find particularly good.That's why the Varamyr prologue in _Dance_ is my 2nd favorite(after Maester Cressen in _Clash_) even though nothing much happened in it.


----------



## masamune1 (Mar 20, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Thor movie was pretty bad. Can't blame him.





pfft said:


> lol thor was a shit film.. so its understandable



Screw you two. It was average / above-average.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 20, 2012)

Prior to Stannis publicly revealing that Jaime was the father of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen, how many people knew the truth? I imagine that both Tyrion and Tywin either knew it, or at least strongly suspected it, as they have both been shown to be very perceptive and intelligent. Jon Arryn likely discerned the truth in the same manner than Ned did, which may have been the cause for his death, but apart from that, I cannot be certain how many other people knew about about it. What does everyone else say about that?

Also, what was the initial trigger for Ned's suspicions on that subject? Was it his meeting Gendry at the forge in King's Landing?


----------



## Fierce (Mar 20, 2012)

I thought Thor was a really good superhero movie, relative to most of the garbage they put out there.



DemonDragonJ said:


> Prior to Stannis publicly revealing that Jaime was the father of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen, how many people knew the truth? I imagine that both Tyrion and Tywin either knew it, or at least strongly suspected it, as they have both been shown to be very perceptive and intelligent. Jon Arryn likely discerned the truth in the same manner than Ned did, which may have been the cause for his death, but apart from that, I cannot be certain how many other people knew about about it. What does everyone else say about that?
> 
> Also, what was the initial trigger for Ned's suspicions on that subject? Was it his meeting Gendry at the forge in King's Landing?



Stannis is the one that brought his suspicions to Jon Arryn. Ned found out because he was following the trail to figure out what Jon Arryn knew that the Lannisters would want to murder him over. Gendry looking just like Robert, and subsequently the rest of his bastards, led him to reason it out when none of the royal children looked anything like him.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Also, what was the initial trigger for Ned's suspicions on that subject? Was it his meeting Gendry at the forge in King's Landing?



I thought the main thing that convinced him was when Sansa said Joffrey was nothing like Robert.


And Thor was bad. There is no dicussion on that. Probably the worst of the Avenger movies barring maybe Iron Man 2. Both Hulks are probably better but I haven't seen them in awhile.


----------



## Kage (Mar 20, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> I thought the main thing that convinced him was when Sansa said Joffrey was nothing like Robert.



^ it made him rethink what Jon Arryn meant by _The seed is strong_


----------



## martryn (Mar 20, 2012)

> And Thor was bad. There is no dicussion on that. Probably the worst of the Avenger movies barring maybe Iron Man 2.



Not to go off-topic, but....

The first half of Thor before he was stuck on earth was fantastical.  It was only after Natalie Portman entered the picture that the movie went downhill, which is odd to say about a film.  

And Iron Man 2 was actually pretty awesome.  Mickey Rourke is fantastic in whatever he does.  Loved the film for Mickey Rourke alone.  A much better bad guy than... was that Jeff Bridges?


----------



## Fierce (Mar 20, 2012)

Wow...that was Jeff Bridges. I never realized.


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 20, 2012)

(The Thor movie was a pretty good movie. Around the half it went down hill, but in all, it definitely was not a "shit movie". Shit movies are movies like Dragon Ball *Live action*. And Iron Man 2 terrible? No. )

As for the interview, thanks for sharing. I've never seen it, and weird, I did not imagine George having such a...I want to say laid back voice, but that doesn't fit. Either way, thanks!


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 20, 2012)

Fierce said:


> Stannis is the one that brought his suspicions to Jon Arryn. Ned found out because he was following the trail to figure out what Jon Arryn knew that the Lannisters would want to murder him over. Gendry looking just like Robert, and subsequently the rest of his bastards, led him to reason it out when none of the royal children looked anything like him.



Is it safe to presume that Stannis first became suspicious when he noticed that Edric Storm resembled Robert?


----------



## Fierce (Mar 21, 2012)

I just reread Clash, and I don't think Stannis ever states exactly where his suspicions derived from. Just that he was the one that brought the issue to Jon Arryn. It's possible, though.


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 21, 2012)

Now I am extremely curious. How did (my) man Stannis figure it out when a whole country couldn't see it? He's boss.


----------



## Corruption (Mar 21, 2012)

That was part 3 of the interview, got it from his , if you wanted to see the other parts. Although, you can easily get to them from the youtube video itself.


----------



## Suigetsu (Mar 23, 2012)

Correct me if I am wrong but Stanni's brother was not gay in the book right? They just made him gay in the tv show. It's just that I cant remember him being gay, maybe I am wrong but dunno.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Mar 23, 2012)

Yes,he was gay in the books,though it's alot more subtle...


----------



## Parallax (Mar 23, 2012)

he was loads more subtle


----------



## Anarch (Mar 23, 2012)

but considering their sheer volumes , quite easy to miss or even forget.

HBO screwed up Renly's character.The guy who was supposed to be a younger version of Robert ended up being effeminate and weak .


----------



## Suigetsu (Mar 23, 2012)

Anarch said:


> but considering their sheer volumes , quite easy to miss or even forget.
> 
> HBO screwed up Renly's character.The guy who was supposed to be a younger version of Robert ended up being effeminate and weak .



I know right? and what's with the obsession with british actors? I mean game of thrones is set on a fantasy universe after all right? where everything's made up of wierd names with tosh razhira rrovos and crap like that. Heck a characters name is even named perros... PERROS. That's dogs in spanish.


----------



## masamune1 (Mar 23, 2012)

Its set in a fantasy world thats based heavily on Medieval Europe, and these books specifically largely on Britain, and to be even more specific England during the War of the Roses, the Starks representing the House of York and Lannisters representing the House of Lancaster.

So there is one reason.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> Now I am extremely curious. How did (my) man Stannis figure it out when a whole country couldn't see it? He's boss.



Maybe Mel pointed him in the right direction. That lady has answers.



Suigetsu said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but Stanni's brother was not gay in the book right? They just made him gay in the tv show. It's just that I cant remember him being gay, maybe I am wrong but dunno.



He was never openly gay in the book nor was it ever directly confirmed in the book. People did make gay quips at his expense though. 

The TV show took it 100 levels higher than what the book did.

The first time I read through I had no clue he was gay or even considered so by others. I noticed the jokes but I thought they were just the normal "I am manlier than you are" type of things. Even the 2nd time reading through (knowing it was implied he was gay) I still didn't really see it.

So the show really went a little off the wall with it.


----------



## Parallax (Mar 23, 2012)

Yeah honestly I never picked up on it until I saw the series and re checked the books.  HBO takes certain parts to the extreme in the books.


----------



## Kage (Mar 23, 2012)

i don't think i would have caught the hints at all if i didn't watch season 1 first before reading the books


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Mar 23, 2012)

Anarch said:


> HBO screwed up Renly's character.The guy who was supposed to be a younger version of Robert ended up being effeminate and weak .


Well to be precise Renly resembled Robert only on the outside.He looked alot like the young Robert but he didn't have his military genius or his skills in combat and his bloodlust.

At one point Donal Noye,the NW smith,makes a rather apt analogy:


> Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."



I know most people hated the way Renly was portrayed on the show but I rather liked it.Instead of being a Robert-wannabe he actually gained some depth.The scene in the woods with Robert showed him as something of a malcontent,and that he wanted to be king out of a geniune desire to do good,where as in the books he just wants to be king out of arrogance and entitlement.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 23, 2012)

I didn't notice it the first time I read the books, with everything else going on. Not sure if I would have caught it the second time on my own, but after watching the HBO series I can definitely see the hints.


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## Anarch (Mar 23, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> he wanted to be king out of a geniune desire to do good



The show actually portrays nothing of the sort. In fact Renly is shown as someone who cannot think for himself , he wants to be King because others around him tell him that he should be . First Loras , in that disturbing shaving scene , and now Margeary Tyrell , if you've watched the trailers ( I'm assuming that was Tyrell ).


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## Mr.Blonde (Mar 23, 2012)

Anarch said:


> The show actually portrays nothing of the sort. In fact Renly is shown as someone who cannot think for himself , he wants to be King because others around him tell him that he should be . First Loras , in that disturbing shaving scene , and now Margeary Tyrell , if you've watched the trailers ( I'm assuming that was Tyrell ).



I saw it a bit differently.During the woods scene Robert is blabbling about how things were better "back in the day".Renly points out that the "good ole' days" were dragons burning entire cities to the ground,civil war and Aerys Targaryen killing everyone in sight because of his paranoia,and that Robert was content to ignore it as long as he had wine and women.
It's true,Loras puts the battery in his back and gives him enough confidence to pursue the throne,but I think Renly's reason for it was a genuine desire to bring about good social changes.Not that I think he was capable of it,mind you,just that those were his intentions.

At least that's the impression I got...


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## Anarch (Mar 23, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> I saw it a bit differently.During the woods scene Robert is blabbling about how things were better "back in the day".Renly points out that the "good ole' days" were dragons burning entire cities to the ground,civil war and Aerys Targaryen killing everyone in sight because of his paranoia,and that Robert was content to ignore it as long as he had wine and women.
> It's true,Loras puts the battery in his back and gives him enough confidence to pursue the throne,but I think Renly's reason for it was a genuine desire to bring about good social changes.Not that I think he was capable of it,mind you,just that those were his intentions.
> 
> At least that's the impression I got...



What you're saying is that Renly would probably make a good king , a people's king even and I agree,but the TV Renly hardly seems capable of any of that.


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## Suigetsu (Mar 25, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> I saw it a bit differently.During the woods scene Robert is blabbling about how things were better "back in the day".Renly points out that the "good ole' days" were dragons burning entire cities to the ground,civil war and Aerys Targaryen killing everyone in sight because of his paranoia,and that Robert was content to ignore it as long as he had wine and women.
> It's true,Loras puts the battery in his back and gives him enough confidence to pursue the throne,but I think Renly's reason for it was a genuine desire to bring about good social changes.Not that I think he was capable of it,mind you,just that those were his intentions.
> 
> At least that's the impression I got...



Yeah those where the impressions that I got too, didn't like how HBO portrayed it.


BTW do you think that Martin will give us a good fight of DARKSTAR vs Ballon Swan? with flashbacks and stuff like that.
Also
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Eddard stark had a misscariaged daughter with Aashara dayne then


?


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## Terra Branford (Mar 25, 2012)

Anarch said:


> What you're saying is that Renly would probably make a good king , a people's king even and I agree,but the TV Renly hardly seems capable of any of that.



His character in the show will do better as the show goes on. Season 2 seems to make him look better than S1 did.

I also don't think Renly really has what it takes to be a king, but that could be my bias for Stannis.


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## Nae'blis (Mar 25, 2012)

Where are you getting the "Dayne miscarriage" from?

Renly thought he would be a better king than Stannis just because of Stannis' personality and rigid morals. I don't disagree that Stannis would have made a horrible king.

And the book always takes the piss of Renly's homosexuality. I think the only character who didn't know was Ned Stark, but only because he is an absolute dipshit.


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## Anarch (Mar 26, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> Season 2 seems to make him look better than S1 did.



Agreed , at least from the trailers.



Terra Branford said:


> His character in the show will do better as the show goes on.



Lets see how much time he gets before he's killed.


Renly would've been a better King than Robert or Stannis IMO , but that doesn't mean that he was the best candidate for King.
I'm still rooting for Dany to take the Iron throne , even though what her father and brother did to the Starks kind of puts me off.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 26, 2012)

I still am wondering about the details of the promise that Ned made to Lyanna as she was dying; will it ever again be important? And with both of them now dead, how exactly will it ever be mentioned again?


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## Anarch (Mar 26, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I still am wondering about the details of the promise that Ned made to Lyanna as she was dying; will it ever again be important? And with both of them now dead, how exactly will it ever be mentioned again?



Correct me if I'm wrong , it's been quite a while since I read the books, but the Crannogman Howland Reed was with Ned when he entered the Tower of Joy so I'm guessing we'll get an appearance from him , and he will finally disclose what happened that day.

And about what Lyanna says to Ned , I kind of subscribe to the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon Snow is a Targarean theory. Lyanna tells Ned that Jon is Rheagar's son and he ( Ned ) should raise him , but keep it a secret.

Considering the popularity of this theory online , I doubt Martin would go ahead with it , still , i'm hoping 




I don't know why I put that in spoilers


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## martryn (Mar 26, 2012)

I just ordered HBO to watch season 2.  Turned on the television and the first thing I saw was interviews and commentaries for season 2 followed by a trailer for the new season.  Brought tears to my eyes.  Good 'ol HBO.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 26, 2012)

Anarch said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong , it's been quite a while since I read the books, but the Crannogman Howland Reed was with Ned when he entered the Tower of Joy so I'm guessing we'll get an appearance from him , and he will finally disclose what happened that day.
> 
> And about what Lyanna says to Ned , I kind of subscribe to the
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I like that theory, myself, but with Martin revealing that Rhaegar's son from Elia, Aegon VI, is still alive, I believe that the possibility of it being true has not greatly decreased.


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## Nae'blis (Mar 26, 2012)

No, Martin loves to give his loyal fans a great big "fuck you", and there is no better way than to say that Jon is just an ordinary Stark bastard. Maybe Lyanna's son with that squire from the tourney at Harrenhal or from some other muggle. But as I recall only one person is alive from the Tower of Joy, and he might not even know what Lyanna told Ned. It might never be revealed unless Bran somehow goes (even more) godly (than he is now).

I don't think it coincidence that Martin made Daenerys to look like shit in the previous book at the same time that he revealed the possibility that Aegon survived. Aegon is either going to be awesome and claim the throne marrying Dany Stormborn, or he will die an undignified death as a Targaryen pretender. Varys is on Aegon's side though and only Petyr Baelish can match him in scheming. A small hope remains.


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## Anarch (Mar 26, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> No, Martin loves to give his loyal fans a great big "fuck you", and there is no better way than to say that Jon is just an ordinary Stark bastard.



This was what I was thinking and it makes me sad 

About Dany is there a possibility , or even a tiniest shred of , that Martin may kill her off ? Not that I want him to , just food for thought.


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## Kage (Mar 26, 2012)

just caught up.

er....i suppose discussion in tags is optional?


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## Anarch (Mar 26, 2012)

Kage said:


> just caught up.
> 
> er....i suppose discussion in tags is optional?



This being the book thread , one would think so


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## Nae'blis (Mar 26, 2012)

lol no, Daenerys has a plot shield like Jon/Tyrion/Arya do. I mean, he even releases her chapters from each book in novella form and has won awards for it.


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## Kage (Mar 26, 2012)

Anarch said:


> This being the book thread , one would think so



i see :3



Nae'blis said:


> lol no, Daenerys has a plot shield like Jon/Tyrion/Arya do. I mean, he even releases her chapters from each book in novella form and has won awards for it.



i dunno...i'm still not over Ned being killed off in the first book 
though admittedly Tyrion is hanging in there where less prominent characters would have surely met their doom long ago.


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## martryn (Mar 26, 2012)

> It might never be revealed unless Bran somehow goes (even more) godly (than he is now).



Seems legit.  Best chance we've got.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 26, 2012)

Anarch said:


> This was what I was thinking and it makes me sad
> 
> About Dany is there a possibility , or even a tiniest shred of , that Martin may kill her off ? Not that I want him to , just food for thought.



I don't think Dany will die because (based on the books so far) that would make her plotline feel so _pointless_. She's barely interacted with the other POVs. Future books might have her arrive in Westeros and change the whole playing field, making her important to the other stories too, but so far her story has been based mostly around her character development. That goes to waste if she dies.

Then again, during the first 700 or so pages I might have made similar arguments about Ned...


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## martryn (Mar 26, 2012)

> I don't think Dany will die because (based on the books so far) that would make her plotline feel so pointless.



Arya's plotline is kinda pointless now.  Just pointing it out.  She's a fan favorite though it's hard to see how she'll be reintroduced to Westeros before the series ends.


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## Shrike (Mar 26, 2012)

^That. I don't see where is Martin going with Arya. Cool, she is going to become a magical ninja assassin thingie and shit. So? Avenge the Starks? She just seems out of place.



Nae'blis said:


> I mean, he even releases her chapters from each book in novella form and has won awards for it.



Really? I personally found Daenerys among the more boring chapters overall. She had some good ones. Most were a bore. Especially in this last book. Ugh.


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## Cyphon (Mar 26, 2012)

Arya gonna ride a dragon.


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## Kage (Mar 26, 2012)

all the people on her shit list will be dead already by the time she gets skilled enough to do it herself.


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## Erendhyl (Mar 26, 2012)

martryn said:


> Arya's plotline is kinda pointless now.  Just pointing it out.  She's a fan favorite though it's hard to see how she'll be reintroduced to Westeros before the series ends.



I agree that it's hard to see how, but I'm still expecting it to happen. Otherwise it _would_ seem really out of place. I dunno, I guess that after how well-plotted the first few books were (and keeping in mind that books 4 and 5 were supposed to be passed with a timeskip), I'm not expecting Martin to do something like keep our focus on old POV characters who aren't going to do anything relevant ever again. 

Writing a story where you kill characters unexpectedly is interesting. Writing one where you follow characters who don't fit into the plot anymore is... odd.


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## Terra Branford (Mar 26, 2012)

@Spike_Shrike:

Who knows, she might end up saving Sansa or someone else. And revenge would be a cool thing for her. I personally want to see her destroy anyone who was, even in the least bit, responsible for the deaths of her family. 

ALL OF YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH ABOUT MY ARYA! SHE'S STILL GOT A POINT IN THE STORY. 

But seriously, George wouldn't have her in the story if she didn't have a part to play.


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## Parallax (Mar 26, 2012)

It might not seem like Arya has a further role, but maybe that's what GRRM is doing to throw readers off.


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## Anarch (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't see how the invisible ninja assassin that Arya's training to be , fits in with riding a dragon.


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## Cyphon (Mar 27, 2012)

Anarch said:


> I don't see how the *invisible ninja assassin* that Arya's training to be , fits in with *riding a dragon*.



Does it need to fit when it sounds that cool?


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## josh101 (Apr 2, 2012)

A question for all you book readers and tv watchers.

I love the Game of Thrones TV show, love it, what's it like watching it after you've read the book?

Because I read the hunger games before I watched the movie, and all I could think about is what was different, whats coming up next, etc, ruined the whole movie experience for me. 

So is it worth me reading the books? Will it spoil the TV show for me ( by knowing whats coming, and knowing whats different, etc ) ?


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## Tazmo (Apr 2, 2012)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


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