# [Spoilers] Alive Minato vs Itachi



## joshhookway (Feb 19, 2014)

*[Spoilers] Alive Minato vs Healthy Itachi*

Location: plains
SOM: IC
Restrictions: this is alive minato, so no Bijuu Mode. This Healthy Itachi
Distance: 20 meters
Knowledge: manga


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 19, 2014)

Minato uses speed and ftg to keep control of the match. Itachi is either outlasted or gets tag and drilled with a rasengan.

Simple answer to a simple overdone thread.


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## richard lewis (Feb 19, 2014)

Minato in SM should pretty much dominate him if we scale him to the same lvl as naruto's SM. however even in base I see him winning very high diff more times than not. 

With SM he should be able to dodge virtually anything in itachi's arsenal bar amaterasu "and even that is debatable" with pure foot speed. With harashin itachi literally can't touch him, minato can avoid eye contact and use sensing to keep track of itachi so genjutsu is out of the question. minato simply outlasts him, as soon as susanoo comes down itachi gets flattened. Hell if minato can use giant rasengans like naruto and jiraiya can he might even be able to bust a hole in susanoo.


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## joshhookway (Feb 19, 2014)

How does Minato deal with Genjutsu?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 19, 2014)

Same way hashirama deal with it.


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## richard lewis (Feb 19, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> How does Minato deal with Genjutsu?





richard lewis said:


> Minato in SM should pretty much dominate him if we scale him to the same lvl as naruto's SM. however even in base I see him winning very high diff more times than not.
> 
> With SM he should be able to dodge virtually anything in itachi's arsenal bar amaterasu "and even that is debatable" with pure foot speed. With harashin itachi literally can't touch him, *minato can avoid eye contact and use sensing to keep track of itachi so genjutsu is out of the question*. minato simply outlasts him, as soon as susanoo comes down itachi gets flattened. Hell if minato can use giant rasengans like naruto and jiraiya can he might even be able to bust a hole in susanoo.



Does that answer your question sir?

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2014)

This has been done many times before.

Nothing new to add here, Minato has shown virtually no feats in SM.

He threw a kunai, then showcased the oculars of Naruto's Sage Mode, teleported with a manifested Rasengan. He didn't take a single step. Madara slashed his arm off, kicked his arm, then kicked him. Minato didn't even have time to react with FTG in this entire series of events, even after he was kicked in Madara's third action he didn't teleport back, he just fell into Gaara. 

If those are his SM feats, SM is incredibly shitty.

This thread should be closed.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 19, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> This has been done many times before.
> 
> Nothing new to add here, Minato has shown virtually no feats in SM.
> 
> ...



This. ^

/thread


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## Nikushimi (Feb 19, 2014)

Nothing has changed; Minato still loses if he gets caught in Tsukuyomi or Izanami, and wins if he doesn't.

It can go either way depending on how the battle unfolds based on the tactical decisions of both combatants.


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## lathia (Feb 19, 2014)

Base Minato was already a tier above Itachi. Giving him SM is rape, plus you give him 20 meters? Itachi's only chance is if he has Izanami and Minato suddenly goes bad. It's so sad to see Itachi become so irrelevant (power wise) so quick. It's too bad his power plateaued before any good feats against stronger rivals could measure his Edo form. His power level is forever stuck at a conveniently designed Izanami battle where he could not fight and had to resort to the ultimate "ass-pull."


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## richard lewis (Feb 19, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> This has been done many times before.
> 
> Nothing new to add here, Minato has shown virtually no feats in SM.
> 
> ...



EMS sasuke got raped by madara also, and madara wan't even the juubi jin at the time. I guess that means EMS is shitty to right


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> EMS sasuke got raped by madara also, and madara wan't even the juubi jin at the time. I guess that means EMS is shitty to right


This logic is fallacious.

The bottom line is he couldn't react the entire time. 

In other words, SM's feats only deal with the fact that he was shit upon without reaction. There is NOTHING else he did in SM. 

In other words, SM is either featless, or you can take the choice of adding in that it was completely assraped in a 3 variant taijutsu demonstration without effort. Your choice, of course.

Fact remains he hasn't taken a single step in SM, or shown that he can remain in it for more than 2 seconds.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 19, 2014)

Hmmm...I just hope people don't think minato would need to rely on a SM, reactions and speed to take on the 4th raikage multiple times ensures he is fast enough without SM.


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 19, 2014)

Let me be entirely serious. This is how I see it, and this is how I've always seen it.

No knowledge - Itachi

Full knowledge - Minato,

SM boosts him in the tiers and such, though.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 19, 2014)

if anybody still thinks Itachi can hang with Minato they need to be drug tested


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## adeshina365 (Feb 19, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> This has been done many times before.
> 
> Nothing new to add here, Minato has shown virtually no feats in SM.
> 
> ...



Yep. Itachi still got this.


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2014)

Anyone who says Itachi is trolling or a tard, it's literally become that simple. Base Minato would beat Sick/Dying Itachi w/ at most mid-low diff; SM Minato rapes him. Additionally anyone saying SM does nothing for Minato is also trolling; we already know what Toad SM does and how great of enhancement it provides, It's bullshit to expect Minato to literally redisplay all of these feats or otherwise ignore them. Juubidara who is Tiers apon Tiers beyond Itachi, getting the best of a Minato who is not even at full power, in no way diminishes how far beyond Itachi Minato is. Hell the most laughable part of all this is the fact that for years Itachi-fans have argued that Itachi = Base Minato, so by their own logic whether it be SM, KCM, or BM all of these powers should put Minato well above Itachi. But the thing people have to remember is that Itachi-fans have literally admitted to me that there is nothing Minato can show that would make them consider him better than Itachi.


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## ? (Feb 19, 2014)

Itachi fans lost.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Anyone who says Itachi is trolling or a tard, it's literally become that simple. Base Minato would beat Sick/Dying Itachi w/ at most mid-low diff; SM Minato rapes him. Additionally anyone saying SM does nothing for Minato is also trolling; we already know what Toad SM does and how great of enhancement it provides, It's bullshit to expect Minato to literally redisplay all of these feats or otherwise ignore them. Juubidara who is Tiers apon Tiers beyond Itachi, getting the best of a Minato who is not even at full power, in no way diminishes how far beyond Itachi Minato is. Hell the most laughable part of all this is the fact that for years Itachi-fans have argued that Itachi = Base Minato, so by their own logic whether it be SM, KCM, or BM all of these powers should put Minato well above Itachi. But the thing people have to remember is that Itachi-fans have literally admitted to me that there is nothing Minato can show that would make them consider him better than Itachi.


You have no feats of Minato in SM. He did nothing but teleport and get annihilated casually. That's not getting the "best of SM Minato", that's making him his bitch without even using a single Rinnegan technique. He chopped his fucking arm off, used it to blitz a kamui user, then kicked him into a Kazekage- a Kazekage that avoided assaults from V3 Susanos and Enton variants- without FTG, from the kunai directly below him, being used. 

You're just wanking Minato to wank him. The fact you addressed Itachi fans in this thread means your intention was to manifest a fan war, which in essence proves your a fanboy of Minato.

Regardless, SM Minato has no feats, thus it does nothing for him. It's not trolling to suspect such, it's common fucking sense. Sorry we don't want to buy your shitbag of fandom. Some of us realize this is actually fictional, and therefore debate it with a sense of logic.


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## Psp123789 (Feb 19, 2014)

I fail to see how SM makes a difference in this fight.


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## ki0 (Feb 19, 2014)

Itachi wins by koto


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## Jagger (Feb 19, 2014)

I honestly believe the living Minato before the Kyuubi incident couldn't use Senjutsu.

Pa's statements to Naruto about the shinobi they've taught to obtain Sage Mode along with Minato's surprise to Naruto being capable of accessing such mode as well implies that.

Doesn't make it less convenient. Yes, I'm still angry about it.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 19, 2014)

Itachi probably wins via Tsukuyomi, to be honest. 

With manga knowledge, Itachi is going to be more cautious than Minato - from the start - and he'd likely use his Mangekyou Sharingan off the bat; the guy would never see it coming. Itachi deflects any kunai with top-tier handling of weaponry, and he clone feints like no one's business.

Sage Mode is completely irrelevant at this point, and people are giving Minato imaginary feats to cover his ass from the rape that occurred in 665.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2014)

Base Minato was already tiers above itachi, SM is not needed. There is only the retarded argument with
the genjutsu as well, but even that is worthless, Minato not only too fast to be put under a genjutsu, but he is
a sensor and can sense the build up chakra and if he is under a genjutsu or not. Not to mention the clones that can't be effected by the genjutsu. 

The problem is itachi fans put a predictive in their heads that Minato is either on the same level as itachi or 
below him, Minato being stronger than itachi is not an option. Thus, even if you give Minato a billion Juubi, they will still come with the same retarded argument (how being faster help a speedster? How having more chakra help, blah blah blah)

Now, put their retarded argument on the same test against someone other than Minato, and they automatically know how retarded is that, do you think if I told them that Hashi does not have any feat against the genjutsu, or how SM help him and he already has a huge chakra and huge jutsu, that they will say, yes, itachi will defeat Hashi because of that? No.

The thing is just so obvious with them, denial is all that left for them. Sad, but true. U_U


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hashirama has fought Uchiha his entire life, Elia. 
It's plausible that his chakra just overpowers most illusions, considering he can defy Edo Tensei without effort. 

Minato doesn't have that option...


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Hashirama has fought Uchiha his entire life, Elia.
> It's plausible that his chakra just overpowers most illusions, considering he can defy Edo Tensei without effort.
> 
> Minato doesn't have that option...



So? Does he have feats of breaking any genjutsu whatsoever? No, he does not. 

Also, you're talking as if Minato is clueless about the uchiha's power, he was the Hokage over them
the least to expect that he knows even the basic stuff that every body knows off. 

Also, he already fought the 2 strongest uchiha in history. U_U


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## ? (Feb 19, 2014)

Minato could become Juubi jin and people would still say he loses to Tsukuyomi. Where is Hashiramas on panel Tsukuyomi counter? I guess he too loses to Itachi.


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## ki0 (Feb 19, 2014)

Minato's only a sensor with sage mode or the Kyuubi.


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## Ƶero (Feb 19, 2014)

Base Minato beats all versions of Itachi, even the fan fictional healthy one.

SM Minato on the other hand rapes Itachi, only trolls and tards disagree.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 19, 2014)

Elia said:


> So? Does he have feats of breaking any genjutsu whatsoever? No, he does not.
> 
> Also, you're talking as if Minato is clueless about the uchiha's power, he was the Hokage over them
> the least to expect that he knows even the basic stuff that every body knows off.
> ...



The mental torture from Tsukuyomi wouldn't do shit to Hashi; his version of Byakugou is arguably greater than Tsunade's variant. She was the only person who could heal the effects that were left on Kakashi and Sasuke, after all. By association, Hashirama should be given the same feats. 

Then again, the guy has also mastered every ninja art, so I doubt Tsukuyomi would do much of anything to him. Hashirama rapes any version of Itachi or Minato - combined, at that - and there's no reason to think he can't break illusions like Edo Tensei had been defied. 

He's the strongest person in the manga (without Juubi powers).


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## Krippy (Feb 19, 2014)

Nothing's changed. There's nothing to prove Minato had SM when he was alive anyway. If Minato gets caught in genjutsu he loses. If not then he may be able to outlast with sage sensing.

Itachi 6/10 high - extreme diff.


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> You have no feats of Minato in SM. He did nothing but teleport and get annihilated casually. /QUOTE]
> It's bullshit to demand feats, when we know exactly what Toad SM does. If someone was saying Minato's Toad SM > Naruto's Toad SM, you could say we need feats, but we don't need feats to know how the dam things works and what increases it's given Minato.
> 
> 
> ...


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## ki0 (Feb 19, 2014)

Itachi wins by getting Minato in a genjutsu via this method:

Herself

or this method:

Herself


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## StickaStick (Feb 19, 2014)

I like Itachi but it's an utter stomp at this point. Before Minato even got these new abilities (so pre-edo) it was a respectable contest. Now Minato is just waltzing through the finish line.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2014)

> =King Itachi;49889146]The mental torture from Tsukuyomi wouldn't do shit to Hashi; his version of Byakugou is arguably greater than Tsunade's variant. She was the only person who could heal the effects that were left on Kakashi and Sasuke, after all. By association, Hashirama should be given the same feats.



Translation. 
We do know how Byakugou and SM work. HOWEVER, since it's HASHIRAMA who has the Byakugou we do NOT need any feats from him, he automatically given the same feats. 

Meanwhile, even though we do know how SM works, BUT it's Minato. Therefore, we CANNOT
give him any feats, SM does NOTHING to him, it's just to make his eyes look different. 

it's funny that itachtards won't even give Tsunade her own feats countersing Tsukuyomi when
there is a debate between her and itachi. 


> Then again, the guy has also mastered every ninja art, so I doubt Tsukuyomi would do much of anything to him. Hashirama rapes any version of Itachi or Minato - combined, at that - and there's no reason to think he can't break illusions like Edo Tensei had been defied.


lol. actually what Minato mastered seems more than Hashi to me.

Minato
1- handseals even with one arm, Speed, sealing jutsus, SM, S/T jutsus, chakra related jutsus..etc

Hashi
2- SM, wood jutsu, and one genjutsu. 




> He's the strongest person in the manga (without Juubi powers).



No, he is not. Also, apparently he still can't do anything to itachi's genjutsu as well. :rofl


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## Wolfstein (Feb 19, 2014)

Feats we know Minato has for a fact because of being a toad sage alone.

>Frog Kata (not exactly 100%, but I don't know why he wouldn't)

> Enhanced Durability (completely unnecessary since he's likely to never be touched anyways. Still good to have though)

> Enhanced Reflexes (Overkill due to the fact that he already has insane reflexes.)

> Enhanced Perception (Further enhances his "good luck touching me once" kit. Allows for last minute hiraishin take downs; think SM Naruto vs Sandaime Raikage)

> *The ability to sense chakra* ( assists in preventing ambushes along with other massively useful things)

> Increased destructive capabilities (senjutsu enhanced ninjutsu)

Even if he hasn't shown any feats, these passive boosts alone makes him incredibly scary. If you say nothing has changed then. . . 
The bold is the real son a bitch to deal with here.


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## joshhookway (Feb 19, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Nothing's changed. *There's nothing to prove Minato had SM when he was alive anyway.* If Minato gets caught in genjutsu he loses. If not then he may be able to outlast with sage sensing.
> 
> Itachi 6/10 high - extreme diff.



Lol, you do realize that sage mode takes a long time to train and master right?

Somehow Minato found the time as an edo to not only fight a war, but completely train senjutsu?


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## Fiiction (Feb 19, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> You have no feats of Minato in SM. He did nothing but teleport and get annihilated casually. That's not getting the "best of SM Minato", that's making him his bitch without even using a single Rinnegan technique. He chopped his fucking arm off, used it to blitz a kamui user, then kicked him into a Kazekage- a Kazekage that avoided assaults from V3 Susanos and Enton variants- without FTG, from the kunai directly below him, being used.
> 
> You're just wanking Minato to wank him. The fact you addressed Itachi fans in this thread means your intention was to manifest a fan war, which in essence proves your a fanboy of Minato.
> 
> Regardless, SM Minato has no feats, thus it does nothing for him. It's not trolling to suspect such, it's common fucking sense. Sorry we don't want to buy your shitbag of fandom. Some of us realize this is actually fictional, and therefore debate it with a sense of logic.



Come on give minato a break he was going against JM Madara lol. Yeah and I think the only thing SM is doing here is changing his eyes ( other than what we've seen when he was in BM ) until there are feats shown other than getting shatted on, but until then itachi takes this.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 19, 2014)

Base Minato was capable of defeating Itachi comfortably. SM Minato will rape Itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 19, 2014)

TBH, even if we grant Minato his new asspull power up, that doesn't change anything.

SM doesn't grant him better speed, because his fastest speed - Hirashin - isn't effected by it, and its irrelevant whether his rasengan gets buffed by it or not because a regular rasengan can finish Itachi off if it lands. If Itachi can defend from it with Susano'o, it doesn't matter  because rasengan can't even put a dent on Susano'o regardless of what form it is in.

So it still can go eitherway but I am leaning more on Itachi. He has a wider array of techniques and more methods that'll allow him to catch Minato off guard and has shown better intelligence, insight and wisdom during battle.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> TSM doesn't grant him better speed



His already fast reflexes would be rapidly increased. 



> because his fastest speed - Hirashin - isn't effected by it



Teleporting to someone means nothing unless he has the reflexes to generate that "instant kill" effect.



> and its irrelevant whether his rasengan gets buffed by it or not because a regular rasengan can finish Itachi off if it lands. If Itachi can defend from it with Susano'o, it doesn't matter  because rasengan can't even put a dent on Susano'o regardless of what form it is in.



Minato's Rasengan could arguably dent (and destroy some levels of) Itachi's Susanoo. SM widens the prospects. 



> So it still can go eitherway but I am leaning more on Itachi. He has a wider array of techniques and more methods that'll allow him to catch Minato off guard and has shown better intelligence, insight and wisdom during battle.



Itachi can't get a sensor off guard, especially not a Sage sensor. Unless they're blind and forget that they have horns.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2014)

Sage Mode and its enhancement to Minato's reflexes would simply make him more difficult to track down and actually attack. Sure, the actual foot/flicker speed boost is negligible, as Minato could already teleport, but the pace at which he can use that teleportation in battle to overwhelm his opponent is directly linked to his reflexive limits. Senjutsu ridiculously increases one's perceptual capabilities (and thus reflexes) through sensing, so Sage Mode is actually quite the perk for Minato to use.

I'm aware that none of this was really displayed against Madara, but Madara has the habit of paneling every character, top tier through fodder, that he comes across, and this was _before_ the unquantifiable power boost the Jubi brings. If Minato had actually successfully completed a frontal blitz on Jubidara _off a thrown Kunai_, it would have broken the forum. So, to those who claim that all Sage Mode Minato did was get bent over....what the fuck did you expect? We know the kind of boosts and abilities SM grants; use your brain and connect the dots.

As for Itachi, his win condition is still Tsykuyomi. Super reflexes plus Hiraishin & Clonejutsu make that pretty damn difficult, especially when using the Mangekyou is so tiring. I highly doubt that Minato's going to fall to that, or _any_ attack that isn't some massive, unavoidable nuke......_or_ something flat out faster than him, like Madara or Obito. Furthermore, I don't realistically see Kishi writing that scenario either, at all, meaning portrayal wise Minato is the favorite as well. Itachi has a chance of course, and he probably always will because of Tsukuyomi, but it isn't a very good one. Similar to his match up with Hashirama (unless people believe Hashirama can no-knowledge break Tsukuyomi just cause Hashirama).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 19, 2014)

> Similar to his match up with Hashirama (unless people believe Hashirama can no-knowledge break Tsukuyomi just cause Hashirama).



Wow!  A genjutsu that lasts _three whole days_. . . _and_ you can control the flow of time and reality _too_?  You Uchiha sure are smart!

Kai.


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## izanagi x izanami (Feb 19, 2014)

10 year old itachi solos......


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 20, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> His already fast reflexes would be rapidly increased.


So ? Did you have doubts that Minato'd have trouble reacting to Itachi ? 




> Teleporting to someone means nothing unless he has the reflexes to generate that "instant kill" effect.


Minato already has those reflexes to pull it off, nothing changes.




> Minato's Rasengan could arguably dent (and destroy some levels of) Itachi's Susanoo. SM widens the prospects.


Minato's rasengan wouldn't put a dent on ribcage Susano'o. I'd be surprised if the SM version did.



> Itachi can't get a sensor off guard, especially not a Sage sensor. Unless they're blind and forget that they have horns.


You can't consider Kabuto blind though. 
He had snake sage mode, he had infrared sensing and vibration sensing + the precise sensing SM grants.

Of course you can catch them off guard, like Itachi & Sasuke did on more than one occasion.

Once Itachi chopped off Kabuto's horn, and the other time Sasuke shot him with his arrow.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Feb 20, 2014)

Are people really saying SM does nothing for him? He gets everything SM Naruto gets on the virtue of having the exact same SM, which means:

Enhanced Strength (strong enough to grab a rhino and chuck it)
Enhanced Durability
Enhanced Perception
Enhanced Speed
Enhanced Reflexes
Enhanced Ninjutsu
Sensing

Did I also forget to mention that he can use the shadow clone jutsu? Have fun trying to deal with this Itachi:



Amaterasu isn't hitting Minato due to his sensing abilities. Tsukuyomi isn't hitting him with his speed. Basically all Itachi can do is camp in his susanoo and Minato may very well be able to break it. If not then Itachi's only holding it for a few minutes before he starts spewing out blood anyway as his chakra reserves are garbage and he's never hitting Minato with totsuka. 

Minato stomps.


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So ? Did you have doubts that Minato'd have trouble reacting to Itachi ?  Minato already has those reflexes to pull it off, nothing changes.




You're confused. Hashirama, for example, already has the means to slaughter Itachi without Senjutsu. Does this mean that Sage Mode Hashirama is "no different" than Base Hashirama?

No. It would mean Hashirama would win more decisively. The same concept applies. 





> Minato's rasengan wouldn't put a dent on ribcage Susano'o. I'd be surprised if the SM version did.




Didn't the Raikage's punch break a Mangekyou Susano'o?


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## Rawri (Feb 20, 2014)

With full knowledge, Minato wins. Without knowledge, Itachi wins.


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## Garcher (Feb 20, 2014)

SM Minato Rasengan got casually tanked by Kakashi. So he lacks of firepower. We know already Minato is a sensor, so sage sensing is useless. The speed increase is useless, how can he move faster than instant teleportation? 

This is HEALTHY Itachi. He will win over Minato with his super intelligence and a wide arsenal of jutsu that are sneaky and/or extremly powerfull. Everyone is bound to have a weak point and Itachi easily sees it and takes advantage of it. Minato will give him a good fight, but there can be just one winner: Itachi.


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## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> SM Minato Rasengan got casually tanked by Kakashi. So he lacks of firepower. We know already Minato is a sensor, so sage sensing is useless. The speed increase is useless, how can he move faster than instant teleportation?
> 
> This is HEALTHY Itachi. He will win over Minato with his super intelligence and a wide arsenal of jutsu that are sneaky and/or extremly powerfull. Everyone is bound to have a weak point and Itachi easily sees it and takes advantage of it. Minato will give him a good fight, but there can be just one winner: Itachi.



- :rofl
Minato's arm was cut off by madara, there was no source for power behind the Rasengan after that.

- and how can itachi react faster than instant? Does that mean he will get destroyed in an instant? 

- lol, itachi is a fodder compare to Minato. And what sneaky jutsus are you talking about?
Forget than Minato is a sensor already? 

- lol, itachi's wankers know no limit. :rofl


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## Tengu (Feb 20, 2014)

The knowledge here favors Itachi, since Minato probably hadn't even herd of Itachi while he was alive.

Itachi will put Minato in a genjutsu at the start of the match, since he knows that Minato is dangerous, also consider this, Itachi managed to put Sage Kabuto in his genjutsu, Minato won't be a problem here, for those who say he can't. As a matter of fact, in the manga Itachi has never failed to put his enemy in his genjutsu, even though his enemies had knowledge of his genjutsu skills.
Once caught in genjutsu, Minato eats a Tsukuyomi, or Amaterasu, either way he is finished.

SM Minato's rasengan didn't even knock Kakashi out, so it isn't passing trough rib cage Susano?.

Itachi still takes this.


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## Rai (Feb 20, 2014)

Frog song solos


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So ? Did you have doubts that Minato'd have trouble reacting to Itachi ?



I pointed out that you were wrong with _"TSM doesn't grant him better speed"_. 



> Minato already has those reflexes to pull it off, nothing changes.



Something does change, he can do it even faster now.



> Minato's rasengan wouldn't put a dent on ribcage Susano'o. I'd be surprised if the SM version did.



We've seen dense chakra dent that Susanoo variant before. Obviously we can say Minato can do it, even more with SM.



> You can't consider Kabuto blind though.
> He had snake sage mode, he had infrared sensing and vibration sensing + the precise sensing SM grants.
> 
> Of course you can catch them off guard, like Itachi & Sasuke did on more than one occasion.
> ...



Blind as in he lacked eyes, which Minato will have. 

Itachi with a superior Uchiha got Kabuto off guard, sometimes. However they never really did due to Kabuto's sage sensing. ITT Itachi is alone, without severe enhancements and without allies stronger than himself against a Sage. 

The arrow was a pro for Sasuke, granted as he's got decent talent. It was explicitly stated that Itachi's horn feat only happened because Kabuto forgot about the horn. 

In other words it is hard to say Itachi will not be raped ITT, more so as he lacks the severe ET enhancements.


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## Bonly (Feb 20, 2014)

Pretty much nothing has changed result wise really. Minato still is the favor of the two in base since he's got a counter to damn near everything Itachi can use, adding SM only makes this fight easier if Minato uses it and Tsukuyomi is Itachi's only shot at winning.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 20, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I pointed out that you were wrong with _"TSM doesn't grant him better speed"_.


I didn't say  that. 
I said Hirashin is Minato's top speed and it doesn't change with SM.




> Something does change, he can do it even faster now.


He can't get faster than Hirashin, so no.




> We've seen dense chakra dent that Susanoo variant before. Obviously we can say Minato can do it, even more with SM.


Baseless speculation.




> Blind as in he lacked eyes, which Minato will have.


He didn't lack eyes actually. He had snake cornea over them, but like I said, the snakes don't need a clear vision, they have infrared vision.



> Itachi with a superior Uchiha got Kabuto off guard, sometimes. However they never really did due to Kabuto's sage sensing. ITT Itachi is alone, without severe enhancements and without allies stronger than himself against a Sage.
> 
> The arrow was a pro for Sasuke, granted as he's got decent talent. It was explicitly stated that Itachi's horn feat only happened because Kabuto forgot about the horn.




Actually, Itachi & Sasuke bypassed Sage sensing with 4 magatamas. Kabuto couldn't react to the arrow shot right after them. The same arrow he could casually dodge a second ago, so the magatama did the actual work of distracting Kabuto.

Sasuke also outmanuvered SM Madara and stabbed him.

Sage sensing is overrated as fuck. 




> [
> In other words it is hard to say Itachi will not be raped ITT, more so as he lacks the severe ET enhancements.



What ET enhancements ? 

And no, SM doesn't allow him to rape Itachi.



Rocky said:


> You're confused. Hashirama, for example, already has the means to slaughter Itachi without Senjutsu. Does this mean that Sage Mode Hashirama is "no different" than Base Hashirama?
> 
> No. It would mean Hashirama would win more decisively. The same concept applies.



Different people, different arsenals.
Your comparison doesn't work.



> Didn't the Raikage's punch break a Mangekyou Susano'o?



His karatechop did.
It also chopped off the horn of 8 tails.

I don't see a correlation here.

His Liger bomb however failed to do any significant damage to Sasuke's weakest version. And liger bomb has a much bigger impact than any rasengan variant, save FRS.


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## Almondsand (Feb 20, 2014)

It's this simple.

Feats >>>> Hype.

Even so Itachi's hype has been backed up over and over while Minato's have not and continue to not be able to live up to it.

Can we just keep it the basics here. Itachi have shown to be the better technician between the two, he has shown to always have control in every battle he ever been in. Minato on the other hand have always been the reactionary type not so much a chess player. People like to pull up what modes, what powers this person or that person have but it's about how you execute and when to execute. Itachi have shown to be the best at it and leagues above Minato. His execution of techniques are pretty average and when it all counts he ultimately does not execute on time (i.e Transferring Kuruma to the enemy). Itachi understand the basic principle of "every technique/jutsu have a weakness" from the get go he is already deducing that and plays the defense which is great. He is like Floyd Mayweather a great technician, breaking you down and taking the opening in quick execution, breaking you down mentally, having you second guessing and doubting.. but unlike Mayweather he will go for the kill once he sees you've given up. Minato have shown a fragile mentality.. Itachi have shown the strongest in the manga. Intelligence will win this battle as well as perfect accurate execution. No matter what power Minato have even with full knowledge he will not be able to tactically beat Itachi. He will fall in a trap...


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## Almondsand (Feb 20, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> SM Minato Rasengan got casually tanked by Kakashi. So he lacks of firepower. We know already Minato is a sensor, so sage sensing is useless. The speed increase is useless, how can he move faster than instant teleportation?
> 
> This is HEALTHY Itachi. He will win over Minato with his super intelligence and a wide arsenal of jutsu that are sneaky and/or extremly powerfull. Everyone is bound to have a weak point and Itachi easily sees it and takes advantage of it. Minato will give him a good fight, but there can be just one winner: Itachi.



Thank You. People keep forgetting that all these guys have all these powerup but Itachi against Nagato and a Perfect sage without even trying to go power vs power used his intelligence and skill to beat them.. as well as not trying to kill them. Minato tries very hard to kill and defeat as well as execute but he failed consistently. He also didn't come up with viable plan yet instead he have been used as a pawn by everyone in the war.. Everyone planned for Minato. Hashirama, Kakashi, Naruto(yes), Tobirama, and Gaara all planned for what Minato should do as he was fucking clueless to the situation and still managed to fuck up. Itachi on the other hand had a perfect sage perplexed on whether Itachi can sense chakra.. let him get free hits to become trapped and still played to not kill him. Tactical mind Itachi has shown always give him at least a 100 point edge. First of all this the guy at 7 years old mentally already at an experienced Hokage level.. That's 3 years after Minato died.. and in that span he learned everything about Konoha as well as it's secrets. So I'm sure he is aware of Minato and all of his techniques. While Minato is not aware of his.. as he was just 4 when Minato gave up his life due to failure to protecting his family. SM should had came in handy then.. guess he didn't think about that huh.


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## eyeknockout (Feb 20, 2014)

i used to think itachi and minato were equals, but after both their revivals i realized minato is much more incapable of making good choices then i thought and his strength portrayal was heavily weakened (even with KCM he was complete garbage.

itachi still wins high difficulty


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Different people, different arsenals.
> Your comparison doesn't work.




Keyword: Concept. My point has nothing to do with their arsenals. 



> His karatechop did.
> It also chopped off the horn of 8 tails.
> 
> I don't see a correlation here.




We've seen the effects of the Raikage's blows on other targets, like the environment. The damage output is similar to Minato's standard Rasengan. If you count the Senjutsu boost, which allows piss poor Genjutsu like Mugen Onsa to enslave master Uchiha, then I wouldn't rule out Rasengan as a legit offensive option against lower Susano'o stages.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 20, 2014)

I'm skeptical of how successful the rasengan would be against lower susanoo forms considering Kakashi's chest cavity tanked a direct hit without strenuous effort[1].


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## lathia (Feb 20, 2014)

Oh man, this is glorious. I knew the day the Itachi fandom could no longer logically debate for Itachi would be a day to remember on NF. This is Madara vs Itachi debates all over again. Now we're resorting to "intelligence" and "decision" making since raw power is out the window.

What could Itachi possibly try that any of the Kages / Sasuke / Naruto have not tried against a Juubi Jinchuriki? Is he going to put Obito / Madara in an Izanami loop? Is he going to attack with his crow clones? Perhaps his SM Totsuka will pierce the Omyoton orbs? Or maybe a finger genjutsu? Kunai thrown from a blind spot behind Sakura's forhead? If that doesn't work we still have Amaterasu, right? It sure worked for Sasuke. 

These debatable "arguments" are laughable. The only thing that can kill / incapacitate a Juubi Jinchuriki's transcendent power is the guts to never give up and keep trying. Also known as... plot. Be glad Itachi isn't in the alliance. It would a shame to see him only be helpful when he's pulling on Minato's chakra. I'm sure that's something to be proud of.


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Can we just keep it the basics here. Itachi have shown to be the better technician between the two, he has shown to always have control in every battle he ever been in. Minato on the other hand have always been the reactionary type not so much a chess player.




Itachi has been the chess player in exactly one of his fights; the Hebi Sasuke bout. That was admittedly impressive, but this Manga has power-creeped to a point where Hebi Sauce is low-tier material. Minato isn't fighting Hebi Sasukes, he's fighting pseudo-gods. In Itachi's fights against Nagato & Kabuto (higher caliber opponents), there was no "chess." He was completely reactionary to Nagato after Kabuto took control, capitalizing on distractions and powerful assistance. Against Kabuto, he literally forced a giant stall war in which EMS Sasuke played a _very _heavy part in.

Minato played the strategy game to an extent vs. the Masked Man with his Kunai trick, exploiting the Kamui interval.He isn't as impressive as Itachi in that field, but he isn't at some major disadvantage nor will he ever be.



> People like to pull up what modes, what powers this person or that person have but it's about how you execute and when to execute. Itachi have shown to be the best at it and leagues above Minato. His execution of techniques are pretty average and when it all counts he ultimately does not execute on time (i.e Transferring Kuruma to the enemy).




Okay, fist off, power-ups do matter. Jubi Jin Gaiden Obito with a 1 in intelligence would still obliterate Itachi with little difficulty simply because of the retarded power creep that has occurred. Furthermore, Itachi isn't some Athena reincarnate that can formulate plans that don't fail. Actually, his original plan for Sasuke did indeed fail. So no, I don't believe that whatever small advantage Itachi has over Minato in "technique execution" is enough to make up for a super mode that causes guys to jump _tiers._



> He is like Floyd Mayweather a great technician, breaking you down and taking the opening in quick execution, breaking you down mentally, having you second guessing and doubting.. but unlike Mayweather he will go for the kill once he sees you've given up. Minato have shown a fragile mentality.. Itachi have shown the strongest in the manga. Intelligence will win this battle as well as perfect accurate execution. No matter what power Minato have even with full knowledge he will not be able to tactically beat Itachi. He will fall in a trap...




Mayweather relies on _evasion_ and _counter_ punching to win his matches. Who does that sound like to you???

Certainly not Itachi, who relies on the Mangekyou Sharingan's dominant Susano'o to compete with the upper tiers. Genjutsu is a powerful gimmick, but it still needs to be landed on one of the most difficult to hit characters in the series. 

Your argument is Itachi wins cause Itachi. It's nothing but a bunch of baseless, unsupported nonsense regarding Minato's apparent intellectual incompetency when the only dumb thing he's done so far is use a long Jutsu name. Intelligence is an incredibly minor factor in battle unless the gap is literally gigantic, and regarding these two, it isn't. Even mister "I'm actually 200 mental steps ahead of you" Shikamaru failed to defeat the dumbass, low-tier Hidan without a preset trap. In this Manga, power trumps brains, which is why your intelligence god Itachi essentially lost to Nagato & Kabuto without his back-up.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2014)

lathia said:


> . Be glad Itachi isn't in the alliance. It would a shame to see him only be helpful when he's pulling on Minato's chakra. I'm sure that's something to be proud of.


Got to disagree w/ this people should be glad Itachi is not in the current battle because Kishimoto would ultimately write himself into a corner where he's forced to asspull BS for Itachi to make him credible in the battle as he's not going to show Itachi get steamrolled; he's too important of a character for that and if anything Kishi has shown he doesn't give a shit about things making sense story/strength wise, if it can help him write himself out of a corner; case and point Minato's SM. This is not to say Itachi is as strong as Minato, not even close in-fact, because Kishi made the decision to not have Itachi fight on this stage and ultimately that is the decision that shows Kishi does not consider Itachi as strong as the main stars of this battle are or will become. Same deal would apply if someone like J-man, he's inferior because Kishi never allowed him to fight on this stage, but if Kishi did bring J-man back to fight, he'd have J-man magically pull shit out of his ass that would make him so much stronger than before; bascially powerscaling is running rampant right now, so any important character thrown into the current battle will probably end up rising at least 1 tier, if not multiple. So yeah I'm glad Kishi decided Kabuto-battle is as far as Itachi goes, as otherwise he'd probably be asspulling his own SM equivalent right now and Itachi-fandom would be unbearable.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 20, 2014)

I don't think the camps on either side of the argument have changed with the revelation of Minato having SM.

SM is amazing but in the context of this specific match-up Minato was already fast enough to evade Totsuka and he was already capable of hiraishin-ing out of enton/amaterasu post-impact(He did this when Sasuke/Naruto rammed it into his chest).

The most reasonable pro-itachi argument has always been ensnaring Minato w/ genjutsu while the most reasonable pro-minato argument has always been outlasting Susanoo. Either is fair game pending the knowledge stipulation really, as Itachi has a plethora of ways in which to ensnare targets.

The addition of SM in the context of this matchup hasn't changed much since Minato is still susceptible to tsukiyomi, amaterasu/totsuka are still useless against minato, and Minato still lacks an adequate offense to penetrate susanoo.

@ Rocky 
I actually think genjutsu and Itachi's affinity for capturing people in it is what allows him to compete with higher tiers, not susanoo. If Itachi's in a situation where he has to rely on Susanoo and is actively failing to trick the opponent chances are he's going to lose the battle anyway IMO.


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## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Got to disagree w/ this people should be glad Itachi is not in the current battle because Kishimoto would ultimately write himself into a corner where he's forced to asspull BS for Itachi to make him credible in the battle as he's not going to show Itachi get steamrolled; he's too important of a character for that and if anything Kishi has shown he doesn't give a shit about things making sense story/strength wise, if it can help him write himself out of a corner; case and point Minato's SM. This is not to say Itachi is as strong as Minato, not even close in-fact, because Kishi made the decision to not have Itachi fight on this stage and ultimately that is the decision that shows Kishi does not consider Itachi as strong as the main stars of this battle are or will become. Same deal would apply if someone like J-man, he's inferior because Kishi never allowed him to fight on this stage, but if Kishi did bring J-man back to fight, he'd have J-man magically pull shit out of his ass that would make him so much stronger than before; bascially powerscaling is running rampant right now, so any important character thrown into the current battle will probably end up rising at least 1 tier, if not multiple. So yeah I'm glad Kishi decided Kabuto-battle is as far as Itachi goes, as otherwise he'd probably be asspulling his own SM equivalent right now and Itachi-fandom would be unbearable.



Not really, the Gokage are there and they barely did anything. Hiruzen while indeed showed more jutsus, but it's not ridiculously overpowered. The same with Tobirama...etc

****
On topic. 
Itachi is one of the strongest character unless he's against one of the uchihas. His Tsukuyomi gives him a one shot against all the characters (other than the uchihas) starting from Hogoromo's younger son (he isn't an uchiha) and going throw Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Jiraiya, Minato, and Naruto...etc

all those guys have a 50% chance of beating itachi, but he still can win against them with Tsukuyomi.


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> @ Rocky
> I actually think genjutsu and Itachi's affinity for capturing people in it is what allows him to compete with higher tiers, not susanoo. If Itachi's in a situation where he has to rely on Susanoo and is actively failing to trick the opponent chances are he's going to lose the battle anyway IMO.




Unless it's a full knowledge vs. no knowledge and 5 meter distance situation, Genjutsu isn't good enough in my opinion. Itachi with the right stipulations can beat the GoS himself, as Hashirama doesn't have an on panel counter to Tsukuyomi. But if we make them fair, Genjutsu isn't hax enough against the higher tiers. Honestly, which high/top tier would fall to Genjustu? Was it even a factor in the Madara/Hashirama fight? Obito/alliance fight? Etc.

Minato would just maintain field control with Hiraishin marks, use that ridiculous mobility and speed to remain at Itachi's flank (away from those nasty eyes), and wait Susano'o out. Sage Mode makes Minato more reflexive (faster), which lowers Itachi's chances of pinpointing Minato even more, and it also gives him the physical strength to wrestle with Susano'o.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> The most reasonable pro-itachi argument has always been ensnaring Minato w/ genjutsu while the most reasonable pro-minato argument has always been outlasting Susanoo. Either is fair game pending the knowledge stipulation really, as Itachi has a plethora of ways in which to ensnare targets.


Actually the landing Genjutsu argument was flimsy to begin w/ given Minato's speed making it hard to land Genjutsu + him having Summons to break him out (Obviously that doesn't help w/ Tsukuyomi tho). It than became more flimsy when Minato demonstrated KB as bushin were demonstrate as potential counter to Genjutsu - Tsukuyomi as well. And the argument was basically debunked the moment Minato was confirmed as a sensor, since Minato can sense Itachi building up chakra to his eyes to use a Dojutsu and avoid eye contact; w/ SM his sensing becomes so advance that like Kabuto he could literally fight blind. So Tsukuyomi/Three Tome Genjutsu has almost no chance of working at this point and that is quite honestly what people should expect as if Sharingan Gen would have a decent chance of working than Obito would have defeated Minato or at least shown some success w/ it against Minato, rather than Kishimoto making it a completely non-factor in their duel. Plus there is absolutely no way in hell Kishi is writing Minato being one-shotted by a Sharingan Genjutsu, it just isn't happening, he's only allowed fucking Juubi Jins to touch the guy for fucks sake and even they didn't one-shot him. So basically your expecting Itachi to do better than Juubi Jins, which is extremely disconnected from what the manga showed us.

The only Genjutsu Itachi has that could perhaps work on Minato would be some kind of advanced trap like Koto-Crow or Tensha Fuuin Genjutsu, but that shit takes tons of prep and really isn't part of a Shinobi's traditional arsenal. Additionally Izanami is the only other Genjutsu that could work at this point, but given it's escape clause seems tailor made for heroes such as Minato, J-man, Naruto, etc.. to auto escape, chances are someone like Minato is thee worst match up for that Jutsu; not to mention performing the technique is very difficult and necessitated Itachi having a great deal of help against someone who is quite frankly weaker than even living Minato and much much weaker than Edo Minato at this point. 



Elia said:


> Not really, the Gokage are there and they barely did anything. Hiruzen while indeed showed more jutsus, but it's not ridiculously overpowered. The same with Tobirama...etc


The Gokage are not the Stars of this battle; at least not yet. Gaara is debatable, but Garaa has been getting a stead stream of power ups since he started being focused on.

The rest I have no clue what your talking about. Old Hiruzen used to be considered the weakest Kage, he is now currently taking on Shin SuuSenjuu for the alliance and w/ his War feats have raised him significantly. Than when you consider what were seeing right now is an Hiruzen whose weakened by Old age and brought back even weaker than that as an Edo Tensei, and scale up appropriately Prime Hiruzen is easily stronger than Itachi, and the war isn't over yet. 

As for Tobirama the guy went from Part I level where his biggest claim to fame was Suitons w/o a water source, to a dude whose in command of two of the most hax Jutsu in the verse (Hiraishin and Edo Tense); it's also now been hinted at that he might have Reika no Jutsu on-top of that, yet another ultra Hax'd Jutsu. Tobirama is already superior to Itachi level based on what he's displayed in the war so far and w/o us even seeing his Edo's, and again the war isn't over yet, if Reika no Jutsu gets confirmed on top of that well the dude is much stronger than Itachi level then. 

Kakashi also keep rising in strength to the point now where it's very easy to see him surpassing Itachi level by the end of this war, heck some people will already argue his feats are more impressive; not me but I have little doubt that by the end that will be the case unless Kishi kills Kakashi off in the next chapter or so, before he can accumulate more feats. Now let's keep in mind before this war Kakashi was at a level where Deva + Asura alone was too much for him to handle even w/ back up.

Orochimaru went from a level where Itachi was decisively stronger than him to the point where he can summon Edo Hokages and absolutely obliterate Itachi, plus has Hashi DNA now, which we have no clue the limits of.

Anyone whose been given substantial focus in this war has risen multiple tiers and most have already surpassed Itachi level do to it, and the others most likely will surpass that level unless they are quickly dispatch or once again forced into a back seat role (as Sakura constantly is being forced into the medic role; otherwise she'd probably be beyond Itachi-level at this point as well, since the moment she started fighting a bit she rose numerous tiers in a matter of chapters; same deal w/ Karin in-fact). 

That's not a dig on Itachi ether, it's a dig on the manga and how stupid the power-scaling has become in this battle


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2014)

They are Hokages, it's obvious that they are good. However, unlike Hashi and Minato (with Kurama) it's not like
if they show insane power to destroy mountains or even like Pain who could destroy an entire village or destroying mountains with CT...etc 

Even Tobirama's water jutsu was not that impressive, some people were saying that he will put Kisame to sham with his water jutsus, but that's never happen. Surpassing itachi is not that's impressive honestly there are tons of characters who can beat him anyway. U_U

As for Oro we already know that he can use the ET before, kishi during the war only made him bite the SZ.

Now if we are going to go with the hype they have, their feats does not really come close, especially with Hiruzen. So, I don't really think kishi is doing what you think he's doing in most cases, it's only those characters were insanely underrated and people always wants "feats" and do not care much about hype (unless it's about their favorite) So, what kishi is showing us is what he stated about the charactrs previously (even though he fails horribly in some cases)


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 21, 2014)

@Rocky
Itachi can genjutsu targets even if they have knowledge on sharingan genjutsu.

Most Uchiha such as Obito, Madara, and Sasuke cast genjutsu in a very straightforward, predictable manner.
When genjutsu is attempted in such an overt predictable manner it's easy to say that with just eye contact knowledge they will be safe to avoid it.

Itachi is a craftier individual however.


Itachi can use the confusion of a bushin feint to establish eye contact[1], establish eye contact while he is casting ninjutsu[2], use a finger to establish a weak genjutsu and then layer Tsukiyomi over that genjutsu[3], use a crow to deliver Tsukiyomi instead of him[4], or attempt to setup izanami.

In essence, you really don't know when it's coming from with Itachi even if you know to avoid eye contact. 

I don't equate knowledge on avoiding eye contact to mean targets can't be caught by Itachi in genjutsu. That would be akin to assuming Naruto or Kakashi can't bushin feint targets that have knowledge on their clone jutsu.

If they're against Sasuke or someone else less versed in genjutsu, eye contact knowledge is enough to combat genjutsu, I'm skeptical it's enough to combat Itachi though. In addition to most people not having any prior knowledge on Itachi's more subtle genjutsu casting methods, they're also less smarter than he has been depicted. He's additionally IC to use these methods early into battle and Tsukiyomi is IC his first big move in battle. 

Tsukiyomi doesn't give second chances. I think it takes a leap of faith to assume less-intelligent people with no-knowledge on certain techniques would be capable of somehow winging their way out of getting Tsukiyomi'd at the start of a fight with Itachi. 


That being said though that's just in general and I'm not really saying this in the context of the debate here of Minato vs Itachi. It can go either way IMO, I just don't think Itachi wins most his battles by overpowering targets with Susanoo. If he's in a battle where it comes down to who has more firepower, it's usually a battle he's going to lose.

edit: and I wouldn't bet on Tsukiyomi working on hashirama due to the sheer fact that Hashirama is... a complete outlier.
I'll respond to your post when I get the chance Turrin


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't think the camps on either side of the argument have changed with the revelation of Minato having SM.



Not true.

I thought base Minato vs Itachi was a really even fight.  Then one party got a super mode.  So I highly favor that party now.


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Itachi can use the confusion of a bushin feint to establish eye contact[1], establish eye contact while he is casting ninjutsu[2], use a finger to establish a weak genjutsu and then layer Tsukiyomi over that genjutsu[3], use a crow to deliver Tsukiyomi instead of him[4], or attempt to setup izanami.




All true. In regards to Minato however, I feel what I propose works well against Itachi. Complete battlefield control allows Minato to stay in the Sharingan's blindspot and approach Itachi that way. If Itachi can't focus in on/pinpoint Minato, then he can't do _anything_, whether it be cast a Genjutsu or throw a Kunai. Itachi has no AoE techniques, meaning no way to remove Minato's tags. Basically, that means no way to slow Minato's "killed 50 ninja in a blink" teleportation speed.

Sage Mode just makes it worse. It's a borderline stomp. Can clonejutsu help? Possibly, but Minato has his own to sort of counteract that. Plus I feel a Sage Mode Yellow Flash would be a character perceptive enough to actually see Itachi create his clones. Itachi may just flat out lose to straightforward bamflash shenanigans. He isn't exactly Jubidara, and Madara didn't appear to have much of a window to react...




> edit: and I wouldn't bet on Tsukiyomi working on hashirama due to the sheer fact that Hashirama is... a complete outlier.




Why.

Outlier in what way.


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## eyeknockout (Feb 21, 2014)

how well does minato even have control over the SM? he's literally done absolutely nothing with it yet. No one even knows how much control over it he has because it's makes no sense that he even got it in the first place.

Honestly if i wanted to be realistic here i would say minato would lose becuse he's way to stupid to even use SM in the first place since he decided not to against obito, kyuubi, obito again, juubi, juubito, a blind madara and juubidara. So really there's no evidence that he'd be smart enough to use the technique even when his life and everyone he cares about lives are on the line. 

Even if he does itachi has shown that he has a lot higher durability than expected, he fought RM naruto, killer bee and sage kabuto by hand or sword, all (probably)physically stronger than minato so even in sage mode minato's techniques are not enough for itachi to have to avoid close quarter combat. Minato also has no option if itachi just burns the entire area down with amaterasu other than running away. Minato still can't even look at itachi. In this match up nothing even really changes and itachi was above before anyway so itachi still wins especially after minato took a massive blow in intelligence, decision making, tactics and precision since being revived.


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2014)

This probably isn't worth it, but..



eyeknockout said:


> how well does minato even have control over the SM? he's literally done absolutely nothing with it yet. No one even knows how much control over it he has because it's makes no sense that he even got it in the first place.




He activated it virtually instantaneously without any need for meditation, and his face didn't take on frog-like features, so a safe assumption that's he's perfected it can be made.



> Honestly if i wanted to be realistic here i would say minato would lose becuse he's way to stupid to even use SM in the first place since he decided not to against obito, kyuubi, obito again, juubi, juubito, a blind madara and juubidara. So really there's no evidence that he'd be smart enough to use the technique even when his life and everyone he cares about lives are on the line.




Yeah, um, plot. Kishimoto didn't plan for half of the bullshit he's currently pulling out. Besides, character actions in regards to using specific techniques is geared by plot. Why didn't Itachi seal Nagato after hitting him with Amaterasu instead of choosing that particular moment to explain Koto Amatsukami to Naruto? Was he too dumb to finish off the threat first? No, it was plot.

The plot card is applicable in certain situations, and they're all rather obvious.



> Even if he does itachi has shown that he has a lot higher durability than expected, he fought RM naruto, killer bee and sage kabuto by hand or sword, all (probably)physically stronger than minato so even in sage mode minato's techniques are not enough for itachi to have to avoid close quarter combat. Minato also has no option if itachi just burns the entire area down with amaterasu other than running away. Minato still can't even look at itachi. In this match up nothing even really changes and itachi was above before anyway so itachi still wins especially after minato took a massive blow in intelligence, decision making, tactics and precision since being revived.




Base Minato embarrassed the Raikage himself in CQC, so Itachi would die badly to Base, SM, or KCM Minato up close. Burning everything down is suicide with his stamina, and Genjutsu isn't a problem as long as Minato uses his spread Hiraishin marks to remain in Itachi's blindspots.

And Minato's decision making, tactics, and precision have been fine. They aren't _perfect_ (like they arguably were before we got more info on him), but no one's are at this point, including Itachi's.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi has been the chess player in exactly one of his fights; the Hebi Sasuke bout. That was admittedly impressive, but this Manga has power-creeped to a point where Hebi Sauce is low-tier material. Minato isn't fighting Hebi Sasukes, he's fighting pseudo-gods. In Itachi's fights against Nagato & Kabuto (higher caliber opponents), there was no "chess." He was completely reactionary to Nagato after Kabuto took control, capitalizing on distractions and powerful assistance. Against Kabuto, he literally forced a giant stall war in which EMS Sasuke played a _very _heavy part in.


Itachi has been the chess player throughout his whole life. He's the one that discovered Obito by tracking his movements and determining his intentions at the age of 8. Itachi learned all the secrets of the village at the age of 7, Hiruzen have given him praise in this aspect lieu of Minato while he was standing next to him. Praising him of his mental aspects. Obito feared Itachi greatly because of his knowledge. Kabuto praised him not on his powers but on his intellect and perceptive skills that surpass that of a fully developed Sharingan.  

In the Nagato fight Itachi showed he was a master chess player because he deduced all of the Rinnegan techniques Nagato showed. He used Kunai to blind the six path vision, used his Susano'o to swiftly free Naruto and Bee, then deduced and broked down the weakness of Chibaku Tensei and Ultimately used the residual dust to capitalize and seal Nagato. 

In the Kabuto fight he orchestrated the whole fight. He wasn't reactionary except by liability of Sasuke's own mistakes. He also was on defense, as well as in lecture mode. He made Kabuto react to every simple move he made, confusing a perfect sage about what abilities Itachi must have. Itachi through circumstance of holding back to not kill Kabuto and a new found personal agenda to help Kabuto's lost path, succeeded exponentially in getting him to react enough to execute Izanami which was the whole goal of the fight. That's how you play chess, you control the board and make your opponent play to your game. Itachi also showed throughout both fights he knows how to use his assistance abilities which shows great command and leadership, something Minato lacks and shows how limited his mental aptitude for strategy is in comparison.



> Minato played the strategy game to an extent vs. the Masked Man with his Kunai trick, exploiting the Kamui interval.He isn't as impressive as Itachi in that field, but he isn't at some major disadvantage nor will he ever be.


I never said Minato isn't a strategist but going by most recent feats and not some memory concocted by himself. Itachi has shown to be a better commander and strategist. Minato have shown none of that instead he have been reactionary to everything, moving more off impulse which caused more harm which shows a knack for bad judgement. Itachi had his moment with Sasuke but it's more forgiven as his were more long term, that spans over years and he was only 11 when he came up with it. Minato who lived longer to the age of 27 have shown poor judgement and not only that but also neglectful behavior to taking responsibility. Itachi is the exact opposite he says he was wrong on taking on everything and not trusting his close ones. Minato on the other hand does is so freely.. He still doesn't notice and thus you see the results. 



> Okay, fist off, power-ups do matter. Jubi Jin Gaiden Obito with a 1 in intelligence would still obliterate Itachi with little difficulty simply because of the retarded power creep that has occurred. Furthermore, Itachi isn't some Athena reincarnate that can formulate plans that don't fail. Actually, his original plan for Sasuke did indeed fail. So no, I don't believe that whatever small advantage Itachi has over Minato in "technique execution" is enough to make up for a super mode that causes guys to jump _tiers._



His plan for Sasuke was before he left the village, he made an intricate detail long term plan at the mere age of 11. I think he should be forgiven for something that spans 13 years. Minato at the age of 27 didn't plan but was reactive to just leave words of hope and pray for the best without a care of the world because of faith. It's surprising Minato will do such a thing with his son, as he done so with his students and two lost their lives because of such trust (or neglectfulness). Itachi plans so far in battle haven't failed, while Minato's plans had many times, even in the first battle we seen him in with Obito.. Itachi never lost(let alone hit) unless it had been of his own design. He preached more wisdom to Naruto, Minato's own son than Minato ever did. 


> Mayweather relies on _evasion_ and _counter_ punching to win his matches. Who does that sound like to you???


Your ignorance to the sport is obvious because Mayweather does not relies on evasion and counter punching, that is just one aspect of his skill. All of Mayweather fights are on youtube, I suggest you look at all of them as you will see Mayweather depends on what his opponent gives him and then proceeds to adapt, and break them down. Mayweather main asset is his mind, ability to control the pace of the bout so then he can make the fighter, fight his fight.  That describes Itachi all day.. Minato is more like Manny Pacquiao, an explosive fighter with great skill but also reactionary and impulsive going for the K.O but then can find himself counter and K.Oed. One thing both Minato and Pacquiao both share is a dependency on their specialization and do not adapt.. Pacquiao's fast powerful left hand and Minato's speed and FTG.. It will get figured out and countered by someone that is not worried.


> Certainly not Itachi, who relies on the Mangekyou Sharingan's dominant Susano'o to compete with the upper tiers. Genjutsu is a powerful gimmick, but it still needs to be landed on one of the most difficult to hit characters in the series.


Shikaku has noted Itachi's ability in genjutsu and gave him as the only way to control people from miles away. Itachi has also shown the ability to layer genjutsu over a whole battlefield, and layer more layers over them so the person can be stuck in a battle within their mind, while he sits there and watch. Necessarily he doesn't have to meet eyes with a person, he ability to cast is emitted throughout any point of his body he deem to cast his jutsu. 


> Your argument is Itachi wins cause Itachi. It's nothing but a bunch of baseless, unsupported nonsense regarding Minato's apparent intellectual incompetency when the only dumb thing he's done so far is use a long Jutsu name. Intelligence is an incredibly minor factor in battle unless the gap is literally gigantic, and regarding these two, it isn't. Even mister "I'm actually 200 mental steps ahead of you" Shikamaru failed to defeat the dumbass, low-tier Hidan without a preset trap. In this Manga, power trumps brains, which is why your intelligence god Itachi essentially lost to Nagato & Kabuto without his back-up.


Your argument is Minato wins because of the hype and modes he have that are feat-less but because other characters said good things about Minato and looked good with the modes Minato possess then he should win. That's really fail logic.. Itachi has shown there are levels to intelligence and he is at the highest level with Tobirama arguably probably next to him. Minato no... He shown that he is a blond in the stereotypical fashion unintentionally. Also Shikamaru is not versatile and is really more dependent on being in a team than Itachi, so that is not a good correlation. Itachi can come up with a Shikamaru plan but he also have intangibles as well as great skill to execute accurately. 

Do I really have to list all the dumb things Minato done so far in the manga? I'm kind of tired writing this.. So can someone please showcase Minato's dumb failures so far.. I'm going to tell you a secret *pshhh* it's at least 5 dumb moments he pulled.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Minato whole FTG technique is based off his projectile positioning... The best  and quickest at projectile skills and technique in crazy outrageous fashion shown is Itachi (whom is so insanely good he can cast techniques at the same damn time), so in my honest assessment I can not see FTG being a major problem as many is saying. Also Sage mode, how impressive is it really.. Itachi hand to hand countered a perfect SM user just on defense.  I mean why is it so easy to downplay Itachi's feats.. It's right there it's too funny.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Feb 21, 2014)

Well, considering this has still been done 1,000 times over, and we still can seem to get a decent consensus, despite Minato just getting a power-up that should make him closer to Nagato if anyone, I'm just not even gonna bother with a good response as I doubt it will change any opinions here. And I think everything I could say has already been said.


So, Minato wins.


Where's Strategoob when you need him?


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## ki0 (Feb 21, 2014)

- Itachi can simply throw his own kunai too keep Minato's Hirashin in check,  like this 1
- Minato would likely never have the time to get into SM.


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> In the Nagato fight Itachi showed he was a master chess player because he deduced all of the Rinnegan techniques Nagato showed. In the Kabuto fight he orchestrated the whole fight. He wasn't reactionary except by liability of Sasuke's own mistakes.




In the Nagato fight, the only impressive thing was his weapon throwing accuracy when countering shared vision. After Kabuto took control, Itachi was floored by Shinra Tensei along with the others. Kabuto then turned his focus towards Naruto, and countered Bee because he jumped in without thinking. Itachi is smarter than Bee and disabled Shared vision first (probably after observing what had actually happened to Bee...). That isn't chess. It's common sense. Much like his "oh so swift and masterful deduction of Chibaku Tensei's weakness." I guarantee you that I, and most other people with some average intelligence, could easily come to the conclusion that the solution to Chibaku Tensei is "aim your attacks at the black ball that sucks everything up." 

Itachi also didn't orchestrate shit against Kabuto. He had to figure everything out as he went along, just like Sasuke. Sauce covered for Itachi just as much as Itachi covered for Sauce, like it or not. That was a two-man effort, and Itachi would have found himself dead long before Edo Tensei was stopped had it not been for his immortality. Itachi took a massive gamble with the extremely risky, non-battle oriented Izanami, and it payed off largley due to Itachi's _Top-Tier_ support.



> Minato who lived longer to the age of 27 have shown poor judgement and not only that but also neglectful behavior to taking responsibility. Itachi is the exact opposite he says he was wrong on taking on everything and not trusting his close ones. Minato on the other hand does is so freely.. He still doesn't notice and thus you see the results.




......wtf?

I'm sure the wisdom king that is Hiruzen chose Minato as a successor due to his poor judgement and lackluster decision making, right? 



Minato made one of the most important _and mature_ decisions in Shinobi history when deciding what to do with Kurama 16 years prior. Kushina wanted to drag it down with her, which would have turned out horribly for a multitude of reasons, and Minato recognized that. 

Minato was shown to be very bright and wise in the past, and nothing in the war retcons that. Nothing.



> Itachi plans so far in battle haven't failed, while Minato's plans had many times, even in the first battle we seen him in with Obito.. Itachi never lost(let alone hit) unless it had been of his own design. He preached more wisdom to Naruto, Minato's own son than Minato ever did


.


You can't seem to come to terms with the fact that Itachi was doomed against either Kabuto or Nagato by himself. Both those fights were complete team efforts, and no amount of strategy on Itachi's part could change that. Minato's current opponents make Itachi's look like a joke, and Itachi could;\'nt handle those jokes without significant assistance. 



> Your ignorance to the sport is obvious because Mayweather does not relies on evasion and counter punching, that is just one aspect of his skill. All of Mayweather fights are on youtube, I suggest you look at all of them as you will see Mayweather depends on what his opponent gives him and then proceeds to adapt, and break them down. Mayweather main asset is his mind, ability to control the pace of the bout so then he can make the fighter, fight his fight.  That describes Itachi all day.. Minato is more like Manny Pacquiao, an explosive fighter with great skill but also reactionary and impulsive going for the K.O but then can find himself counter and K.Oed. One thing both Minato and Pacquiao both share is a dependency on their specialization and do not adapt.. Pacquiao's fast powerful left hand and Minato's speed and FTG.. It will get figured out and countered by someone that is not worried.






Mayweather's main asset is his mind, true. And what does his mind tell him? Rely on evasion, counter punching, take what you can get, and let the fight go to decision. Minato is very similar; nothing like Pacquiao. That comparison is actually laughable. If I had to pick a Pacman equivalent, it would be the Raikage, who is essentially the opposite of Minato.


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2014)

I'd also like to note that Minato's Kunai are quite thick & hefty, and if they're being launched by the super strong arms of a Toad Sage, deflecting them with run-of-the-mill shuriken is going to be difficult.


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2014)

Elia said:


> They are Hokages, it's obvious that they are good. However, unlike Hashi and Minato (with Kurama) it's not like
> if they show insane power to destroy mountains or even like Pain who could destroy an entire village or destroying mountains with CT...etc
> 
> Even Tobirama's water jutsu was not that impressive, some people were saying that he will put Kisame to sham with his water jutsus, but that's never happen. Surpassing itachi is not that's impressive honestly there are tons of characters who can beat him anyway. U_U
> ...


You can say they were always suppose to be stronger than Itachi, which I agree w/ and is why the author allowed them to fight on this ridiculously powerscaling stage. However that doesn't change that the powerscaling is happening to a ridiculous extent


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 21, 2014)

With Sage Mode, Minato would likely win this. Base Minato vs Edo Itachi (no regen) would likely be the even fight. I would give healthy Itachi an advantage based on the fact that he was brought back at less power from his maximum than Madara who was artificially altered to be closer to his original power. So yes, I'm going purely off hype but honestly who cares? I'm being fair about the hype, because Minato's Sage Mode is featless alongside healthy Itachi.

Minato won't be outclassing Itachi (without SM) in Taijutsu. That's just not happening. His Edo Taijutsu and Sharingan Precog showing tells us that Minato won't be winning this on Taijutsu alone. With the Sharingan and being faster by feats than 14 year old Obito, he will be able to see the Chakra build up for FTG and so he will know what to expect. Kunai and Shurikens block FTG kunai from being anywhere in attacking range. Even when his leg was injured, was fatigued and sick, Itachi was able to avoid Sasuke's assault and actually gain the upper hand of that situation. He dodged a point blank fireball and then miraculously dodged Chidori while in mid-air and landed his own fireball.

Susano'o only needs to be used in short bursts. Susano'o by itself does not take up much Chakra unless it is maintain or constantly used at higher levels. Minato will have to use a significantly larger amount of Chakra just to get Itachi to have to use Susano'o just once. Because Minato is a close range fighter and Itachi's reactions are strong enough to react to literally everything Minato can throw out. FTG can be reacted to if one is aware that it is coming. Juubito was relatively non-serious after the first hit of FTG, because he knew that he couldn't be harmed by anything (he didn't know that Senjutsu would work). So anyone that might have used that is not making a case against someone who knows FTG can useful against him and is specifically looking for it to happen.

Genjutsu is always possible when you consider the crow methods that Itachi uses. It's unlikely if he reaches Sage Mode, but still possible.


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2014)

Edo itachi was not at full power? Says who?

Itachis ms is better than obitos? Oh dear God!

Oh and itachis reaction are now on par with jj obito! Wonderful.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Keyword: Concept. My point has nothing to do with their arsenals.


It has everything to do with their arsenals because thats what we are specifically talking about here.




> We've seen the effects of the Raikage's blows on other targets, like the environment. The damage output is similar to Minato's standard Rasengan.


Rasengan is an explosive technique, Raikage's blows are just physical impact. If  they can create similar amount of environmental damage, that only shows they pack alot more power.



> If you count the Senjutsu boost, which allows piss poor Genjutsu like Mugen Onsa to enslave master Uchiha, then I wouldn't rule out Rasengan as a legit offensive option against lower Susano'o stages.



I certainly would, not only because it has absolutely 0 feats of coming close to harming anything as durable as ribcage Susano'o but also beause your example here is a bit ambigious.

Mugen onsa trapped master Uchiha for a brief time period. And we actually don't know if having sharingan has any effect on sound genjutsu, so them being Uchiha might be also irrelevant.

The genjutsu was cast by Kabuto, with his own chakra and his own skill and his own boosts, so SM wasn't the only factor effecting the efficency of that genjutsu. Tayuya was just a medium.




Elia said:


> Itachis ms is better than obitos? Oh dear God!



Circumstantially ? Yes. And vice versa.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 21, 2014)

Elia said:


> Edo itachi was not at full power? Says who?
> 
> Itachis ms is better than obitos? Oh dear God!
> 
> Oh and itachis reaction are now on par with jj obito! Wonderful.



Uh no, he wasn't. Neither was Edo Deidara, Edo Nagato, Edo Kakuzu, etc. Why is Madara the only exception to Kabuto's Edo Tensei zombies when he was specifically modified to be "better than his prime"? This makes no sense. 

And what you're doing right now is a straw man on the second part. Itachi's Sharingan Precog is better than 14 year old Obito's. I said nothing about 30 year old Obito. And yes, there is a difference.

Third part is also a straw man. Please, where did I say that his reactions are on par with Juubito?


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Uh no, he wasn't. Neither was Edo Deidara, Edo Nagato, Edo Kakuzu, etc. Why is Madara the only exception to Kabuto's Edo Tensei zombies when he was specifically modified to be "better than his prime"? This makes no sense.
> 
> And what you're doing right now is a straw man on the second part. Itachi's Sharingan Precog is better than 14 year old Obito's. I said nothing about 30 year old Obito. And yes, there is a difference.



- manga scan please. 
- oh please, tell us more. How itachis  ms is better than obitos? And what the different between 
Obitos ms at 14 or 30? Please give proofs cuz talk is cheap.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> In the Nagato fight, the only impressive thing was his weapon throwing accuracy when countering shared vision. After Kabuto took control, Itachi was floored by Shinra Tensei along with the others. Kabuto then turned his focus towards Naruto, and countered Bee because he jumped in without thinking. Itachi is smarter than Bee and disabled Shared vision first (probably after observing what had actually happened to Bee...). *That isn't chess.* It's common sense. Much like his "oh so swift and masterful deduction of Chibaku Tensei's weakness." I guarantee you that I, and most other people with some average intelligence, could easily come to the conclusion that the solution to Chibaku Tensei is "aim your attacks at the black ball that sucks everything up."


Bruh.. Are you serious? Chess is about adapting to what your opponents gives so that you will control the flow of the game. You just described the succession of actions Itachi utilized to put himself in control of the battle. If it's such common train of thought process then why don't Minato utilize it? Minato seems to like to jump in a lot like Killer Bee, just that only a few people can *see* him coming.  Yet no one deduced the weakness of the attack before Itachi.. Not even Naruto who was caught in it. Minato haven't shown a succession of actions that were tactical enough to put him in control of the situation. Which is why he was killed, two of his students were killed, and now his son is dying. Also he has caused damaged to Gaara and Kakashi due to his impulsive nature to jump in, and not being able to see a counter. 


> Itachi also didn't orchestrate shit against Kabuto. He had to figure everything out as he went along, just like Sasuke. Sauce covered for Itachi just as much as Itachi covered for Sauce, like it or not. That was a two-man effort, and Itachi would have found himself dead long before Edo Tensei was stopped had it not been for his immortality. Itachi took a massive gamble with the extremely risky, non-battle oriented Izanami, and it payed off largley due to Itachi's _Top-Tier_ support.



Are you reading the manga or just putting your own story together? This whole ordeal was a circumstantial situation where only one side can play offense, while the other had to subdue. Once again Itachi shows his tactical mind and leadership by utilizing Sasuke, whom otherwise was a distraction, to put everything in to place. Itachi commanded Sasuke and Sasuke has shown to be reactionary and confused throughout the whole battle with EMS to what Itachi  movements and feints to set up Izanami and caught a Kabuto who couldn't keep up with Itachi's thought process and attacked himself into a loop. Itachi wasn't even fighting Kabuto just playing defense, fending off his attacks or choosing to get hit to set up the trap of Izanami, so that he can subjugate a *perfect sage without lethal force.* Do you not get it? Itachi made Kabuto reactionary which ultimately set him up for the Izanami, everything Kabuto did after hitting Itachi's crow clone was all theater from then on. Where have Minato ever showed leadership, strategy, deception and non-lethal means to get anything done ever in the manga? 




> ......wtf?
> 
> I'm sure the wisdom king that is Hiruzen chose Minato as a successor due to his poor judgement and lackluster decision making, right?


You really are ignorant to everything you are trying to express because you lack knowledge of the story. Hiruzen actually chose Orochimaru as the successor but due to bad timing on Orochimaru's evil doing he opted for the second option (since Jaraiya didn't want it) and gave it to Minato. See Hiruzen was looking for someone with intellect.. which is why Minato have proven why he wasn't the first choice. He does not plan as well as say someone like Orochimaru, Itachi, Tobirama, Hiruzen.. He just ya' know say YOLO and put himself and others in precarious situations. I say his carelessness more so than Madara's planning is the cause for the War currently in the manga. 


> Minato made one of the most important _and mature_ decisions in Shinobi history when deciding what to do with Kurama 16 years prior. Kushina wanted to drag it down with her, which would have turned out horribly for a multitude of reasons, and Minato recognized that.


Kushina is actually much more smarter than Minato, her dragging down the Kyuubi with her will have ultimately stopped Obito or Madara from possessing it indefinitely.  Minato made that decision with only a few minutes to live, no careful planning, nothing just a prayer and pat on his son's back like"hey dude I believe in you, I leave you up to the problems I couldn't finish". Really!? Itachi on the other hand tried to bring about solving everything and setting up security for if his plans fail. For instance think about what he has done with Kabuto and how he was able to bring about all the changes in Sasuke, as well as Orochimaru, Deidara to improve themselves. Itachi at the age of 11 made a long term plan and never moved off of a whim, even while in battle where all the ones we seen him in, he was holding back in some way or another.


> Minato was shown to be very bright and wise in the past, and nothing in the war retcons that. Nothing.


Where has Minato shown to be wise and bright in the manga besides it being hype coming from someone's mouth?


> You can't seem to come to terms with the fact that Itachi was doomed against either Kabuto or Nagato by himself. Both those fights were complete team efforts, and no amount of strategy on Itachi's part could change that. Minato's current opponents make Itachi's look like a joke, and Itachi could;\'nt handle those jokes without significant assistance.


That's fail logic my g. Just because Itachi utilized the men on his team to bring about success does not mean he could not have done the same on his own, he has never shown to be in a minor role ever. After all, Itachi was the one who subjugated them in to supportive roles to execute his ideal. You can't seem to come to grips that Minato have never shown any type of tactical mind and throughout recent chapter have shown the exact opposite. Everyone had to plan for him and how he should execute his techniques, where ever he decide to move on his own it had caused more harm than good. Minato currently looks like a joke.. He needs a hand don't you think? The alliance needs a hand, his son needs a hand but unfortunately asking Minato for assistance is like shooting yourself in the leg. That's how much of strategist and dependable he have shown to be based off feats. Kakashi planned for him, Gaara planned for him, Tobirama planned for him, Shikamaru planned for him, and even Naruto planned for him. Minato have not shown any tactical fortitude in his reemergence. Itachi and Minato are miles separated with the mental aspect both in battle and general intelligence.




> Mayweather's main asset is his mind, true. And what does his mind tell him? Rely on evasion, counter punching, take what you can get, and let the fight go to decision. Minato is very similar; nothing like Pacquiao. That comparison is actually laughable. If I had to pick a Pacman equivalent, it would be the Raikage, who is essentially the opposite of Minato.



His mind does not tell him to rely on evasion, counter punching etc. His mind tells him to play chess. To keep ring generalship and control of the fight. Watch the Mosley fight, Mayweather gets hit with big right hands and yet he decides to walk him down. Do you know why? It's a psychological thing to bring doubt in the opponent, Mayweather did so while keeping control by putting leverage through clinch and hitting sharp uppercuts to the gut and finished the round with two left hooks to the head of Mosley. Next 10 rounds Mayweather absolutely dismantled him and broke him down.. Brutally embarrassing I can say the least. Minato is not anywhere near Itachi or Mayweather mentally.. He is a technician in battle more so someone that believes in their own hype like Mike Tyson.. Who lived by his power but once someone figures it out.. Then what? Game over..


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'd also like to note that Minato's Kunai are quite thick & hefty, and if they're being launched by the super strong arms of a Toad Sage, deflecting them with run-of-the-mill shuriken is going to be difficult.



Minato's kunai have been countered many times before.  Itachi is the best shown in the manga with projectiles I am confident will deflect them as he is shown to use his own Kunai to juggle off each other to hit angles otherwise impossible. Also Minato have shown no chakra affinity so we can assume he lacks in that area and can not infused a chakra type in his weapon while Itachi have shown to infused fire nature with his. Based off feats Itachi will win the Kunai battle and in essence subjugate and control Minato's FTG technique.


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## richard lewis (Feb 21, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Uh no, he wasn't. Neither was Edo Deidara, Edo Nagato, Edo Kakuzu, etc. Why is Madara the only exception to Kabuto's Edo Tensei zombies when he was specifically modified to be "better than his prime"? This makes no sense.



First off the edo's where nearly at full strength, if we look at guy's like muu for example do you really think he was that much stronger when he was living? he could use all the same jutsu as an edo that he could use when alive and at virtually the same power considering his jinton matched onoki's. Even nagato appeared to actually be stronger than pein and use his jutsu more efficiently. So if there is a strength difference between edo's and living it is marginal. BTW minato and tobirama where also edo's and they where still blitzing juubi obito so going by your logic they will be even faster when alive which makes it even less likely that itachi could react.



Master Sephiroth said:


> And what you're doing right now is a straw man on the second part. Itachi's Sharingan Precog is better than 14 year old Obito's. I said nothing about 30 year old Obito. And yes, there is a difference.



Actually I think obito is a couple years older than kakashi, could be wrong but obito graduated from the academy at age 9 where as kakashi was only 5, assuming they both joined minato's team immediately after graduating that makes obito 4 years older. regardless he hasn't shown any feats to suggest he could react to ftg when older in fact just the opposite.

since when is itachi's precog better? I'm pretty sure 3 tomoe sharingan provides the same buffs for everyone it's just that some use it more efficiently than others.

Minato in SM can avoid eye contact and track itachi via sensing, he can dodge virtually everything in itachi's arsenal with foot speed bar amaterasu which he has ftg for. He's got itachi beat pretty decisively here.


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## Ƶero (Feb 21, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Minato's kunai have been countered many times before.  Itachi is the best shown in the manga with projectiles I am confident will deflect them as he is shown to use his own Kunai to juggle off each other to hit angles otherwise impossible. Also Minato have shown no chakra affinity so we can assume he lacks in that area and can not infused a chakra type in his weapon while Itachi have shown to infused fire nature with his. Based off feats Itachi will win the Kunai battle and in essence subjugate and control Minato's FTG technique.



Minato can throw kunais and warp to them faster than Kamui. By feats Minato >>>>>>>> Itachi.



Itachi isnt a Juubi jin, he gets pasted with a Rasengan to the gut.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Ƶero said:


> Minato can throw kunais and warp to them faster than Kamui. By feats Minato >>>>>>>> Itachi.
> 
> 
> 
> Itachi isnt a Juubi jin, he gets pasted with a Rasengan to the gut.



Speed is countered with timing.. Itachi have the best timing with executing techniques than anyone in the manga. Minato does not possess the sharingan so he can more than likely be hitting a simple exploding clone.. or a kurasin bunshin that can put him in a genjutsu. GG. Plus who's to say Itachi will let a Kunai get near him with he has shown instantaneous speeds of letting projectiles fly while executing techniques, while hitting blind spots, and making clones to counter as well as layering a genjutsu all at the same damn time.. WHile he was sick and dying. This is a feat shown in the manga..


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 21, 2014)

@Rocky


> All true. In regards to Minato however, I feel what I propose works well against Itachi. Complete battlefield control allows Minato to stay in the Sharingan's blindspot and approach Itachi that way. If Itachi can't focus in on/pinpoint Minato, then he can't do anything, whether it be cast a Genjutsu or throw a Kunai. Itachi has no AoE techniques, meaning no way to remove Minato's tags. Basically, that means no way to slow Minato's "killed 50 ninja in a blink" teleportation speed.


My main point Rocky is itachi doesn't genjutsu in an overtly obvious way. If all of Itachi's prospects for landing genjutsu could be summed up to Minato as "avoid Itachi's eyes" and this was just a contest of who is faster, Itachi's eye or Minato keeping in his blind spot, then this argument of essentially speed-overpowering Itachi would be relevant. My point is Minato could potentially be caught by genjutsu when he isn't expecting it, such as from a crow.



> Sage Mode just makes it worse. It's a borderline stomp. Can clonejutsu help? Possibly, but Minato has his own to sort of counteract that. Plus I feel a Sage Mode Yellow Flash would be a character perceptive enough to actually see Itachi create his clones. Itachi may just flat out lose to straightforward bamflash shenanigans. He isn't exactly Jubidara, and Madara didn't appear to have much of a window to react...


Minato still can evade everything itachi has except genjutsu he doesn't know about, and itachi still can tank everything Minato throws at him until dying from MS overuse. I think SM needs to alter one of these principles of the battle in order to have the significant effect your ascribing to it. If for instance Minato was able to penetrate susanoo now then SM would have a great effect on the outcome. 
I don't think Jubidara was pressured by Minato's speed. Minato was taken out before he could react and engage in V2-Hiraishin CQC . 



> Why.
> 
> Outlier in what way


It's just an unsubstantiated position, but I don't believe Hashi would be oneshotted by Tsukiyomi by Itachi.
@Turrin


> It than became more flimsy when Minato demonstrated KB as bushin were demonstrate as potential counter to Genjutsu - Tsukuyomi as well.


Kage Bushin is a versatile jutsu. Not everyone uses bushinjutsu to feint targets necessarily. Minato wasn't depicted in a manner of using bushinjutsu in a way akin to how Kakashi uses it for deceptive purposes. If he doesn?t use them in such a manner it doesn?t help him evade genjutsu.



> And the argument was basically debunked the moment Minato was confirmed as a sensor, since Minato can sense Itachi building up chakra to his eyes to use a Dojutsu and avoid eye contact


Assuming Tsukiyomi exudes the same signature Amaterasu gives off, this still doesn?t matter. He can just build up initially and then save the technique for when he actually wants to use it as demonstrated when nagato sensed amaterasu.


> w/ SM his sensing becomes so advance that like Kabuto he could literally fight blind.


Kabuto had snake sensing + SM sensing and potentially Karin?s sensing as well. He was able to fight in battle with his sensing constantly on. Minato on the other hand must consciously activate his sensing. I think it?s speculation to say without any doubt Minato is able to fight perfectly without his eyes now. 


> The only Genjutsu Itachi has that could perhaps work on Minato would be some kind of advanced trap like Koto-Crow or Tensha Fuuin Genjutsu, but that shit takes tons of prep and really isn't part of a Shinobi's traditional arsenal.


Prepping a crow is a simply 2-jutsu step to our knowledge. Summon the crow, use Tensha Fuuin on it. With Susanoo as a defense, I really don?t see why this sequence would be so difficult so as to make it impossible in battle. Shinobi routinely prep things of similar speed such as, for instance, using kage bushin jutsu and then having 2-3 clones put together a FRS.


> Additionally Izanami is the only other Genjutsu that could work at this point, but given it's escape clause seems tailor made for heroes such as Minato, J-man, Naruto, etc.. to auto escape, chances are someone like Minato is thee worst match up for that Jutsu; not to mention performing the technique is very difficult and necessitated Itachi having a great deal of help against someone who is quite frankly weaker than even living Minato and much much weaker than Edo Minato at this point.


 Izanami is overrated. Since it is a continuous genjutsu it can be partner method?d just like any other non instant genjutsu. In the context of a battle devoid of PIS, Itachi likely wouldn?t say anything about how to solve the technique either, and it?s likely he could just kill someone irl before they figure it out themselves considering they?d likely be only a shunshin away from each other. Tsukiyomi is more lethal than Izanami anyway though.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> @Rocky
> My main point Rocky is itachi doesn't genjutsu in an overtly obvious way. If all of Itachi's prospects for landing genjutsu could be summed up to Minato as "avoid Itachi's eyes" and this was just a contest of who is faster, Itachi's eye or Minato keeping in his blind spot, then this argument of essentially speed-overpowering Itachi would be relevant. My point is Minato could potentially be caught by genjutsu when he isn't expecting it, such as from a crow.
> 
> Minato still can evade everything itachi has except genjutsu he doesn't know about, and itachi still can tank everything Minato throws at him until dying from MS overuse. I think SM needs to alter one of these principles of the battle in order to have the significant effect your ascribing to it. If for instance Minato was able to penetrate susanoo now then SM would have a great effect on the outcome.
> ...



Izanami I believe can work on Minato as you can see in the chapter 664, he has doubts about himself and how he can help others. He will be trapped in a loop. However, Itachi will not need it. Itachi can just cast a layer genjutsu or as you mentioned prep a crow to instill a battlefield laden with it. It's kind of in the nature of this skip to 2:35:


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Kage Bushin is a versatile jutsu. Not everyone uses bushinjutsu to feint targets necessarily. Minato wasn't depicted in a manner of using bushinjutsu in a way akin to how Kakashi uses it for deceptive purposes.


I don't think we've seen Minato use KB enough to make an assessment on how he would or would not use KB in different scenario's. However my point wasn't that Minato showing KB means he's going to use KB-Feints, all the time, it was rather to express that the moment he showed KB, Kishi gave himself an "out" if Minato ever went up against Genjutsu, where he could just have it be a Bushin hit by the Genjutsu, allowing Minato to avoid it that way.



> If he doesn’t use them in such a manner it doesn’t help him evade genjutsu.


I disagree w/ this, just having a KB out makes utilizing non-AOE Genjutsu more difficulty. Even if a Feint is not the conscious objective once the Bushin and original start moving around, it becomes hard to determine who the original is; and if were talking Tsukuyomi you don't want to waste that on a Bushin. 



> Assuming Tsukiyomi exudes the same signature Amaterasu gives off, this still doesn’t matter. He can just build up initially and then save the technique for when he actually wants to use it as demonstrated when nagato sensed amaterasu.


Dude you have to build up chakra to your eyes to use any Dojutsu technique.

I don't see any evidence in the manga for building up and than saving a technique, this seems like a made up feat to me. Nagato sensed the build up for Amaterasu and Itachi did indeed us Amaterasu shortly thereafter; he - nor any Uchiha have shown the ability to "save" the technique for whenever the hell they want to pull it out in battle.



> Kabuto had snake sensing + SM sensing and potentially Karin’s sensing as well. He was able to fight in battle with his sensing constantly on. Minato on the other hand must consciously activate his sensing. I think it’s speculation to say without any doubt Minato is able to fight perfectly without his eyes now.


The reasoning Kabuto cited for being able to fight w/ his eyes closed was purely SM sensing; nothing else. So now saying it's because of other sensing or that SM sensing does not grant this ability is disingenuous to what the manga has presented. On-top of that we've seen a Toad SM user fight blind before, when SM Naruto defeated Animal Realm inside pitch black darkness or when SM Naruto was able to fight effectively within smoke screens.



> Prepping a crow is a simply 2-jutsu step to our knowledge. Summon the crow, use Tensha Fuuin on it. With Susanoo as a defense, I really don’t see why this sequence would be so difficult so as to make it impossible in battle.Shinobi routinely prep things of similar speed such as, for instance, using kage bushin jutsu and then having 2-3 clones put together a FRS.


So were ignoring the whole necessity to place an eye in the crow? And Shisui's eye needs 10 years recharge?



> Izanami is overrated. Since it is a continuous genjutsu it can be partner method’d just like any other non instant genjutsu. In the context of a battle devoid of PIS, Itachi likely wouldn’t say anything about how to solve the technique either, and it’s likely he could just kill someone irl before they figure it out themselves considering they’d likely be only a shunshin away from each other. Tsukiyomi is more lethal than Izanami anyway though.


I think all of Itachi's shit is overrated, period, so let's not go there. With that said I agree that Izanami landing and sticking on Minato has a slim to zilch chance of happening, but quite honestly that's better than any of Itachi's other Genjutsu at this point since it's the one Genjutsu that isn't soft countered by Summons, Bushin, Speed, & isn't hard countered by Sensing.

But basically it's all about portrayal for me. The moment that Kishi had Minato fight various Uchiha w/o Regular Dojutsu Genjutsu doing anything, I knew that your traditional shit wasn't going to be allowed by the author to work. Izanami breaks the mold enough where maybe the author would allow it to work, but I find it unlikely.

Edit: I also have to ask if Summons + KB + Sensing/SM Sensing + Speed + Extremely Good Chakra Control + Being a Top Notch Ninja + Having Gone up against other Uchiah w/ Standard Dojutsu Gen doing nothing, is not enough to make one believe that the chance of someone being defeated by Genjutsu are slim to zilch, than what exactly is? What does one need to show to make this unlikely is basically what i'm asking at this point?


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## Senjuclan (Feb 21, 2014)

Minato vs. Itachi as a debate was over on Tuesday. With sage mode, Minato shits on Itachi. Anyone who is not biased knows that


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Itachi defeated a perfect sage without killing intent and being on the defense. Sage mode is irrelevant. Why is Itachi's genjustu so underrated.. I know why because if people actually go by what the manga shows of his execution no one will beat Itachi in the battledome.


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It has everything to do with their arsenals because thats what we are specifically talking about here.




I believe your point was that Sage Mode is irrelevant due to Minato already having the means to avoid everything Itachi wants to do (if that's the case then how can you support itachi anyway?). That doesn't support Sage Mode being useless.



> Rasengan is an explosive technique, Raikage's blows are just physical impact. If  they can create similar amount of environmental damage, that only shows they pack alot more power.




Rasengan isn't a bomb. It exerts a concentrated force upon its target, just like any physical impact.



> I certainly would, not only because it has absolutely 0 feats of coming close to harming anything as durable as ribcage Susano'o but also beause your example here is a bit ambigious.




What exactly are the durability feats of Itachi's ribcage Susano'o that make you say that?



> Mugen onsa trapped master Uchiha for a brief time period. And we actually don't know if having sharingan has any effect on sound genjutsu, so them being Uchiha might be also irrelevant.




Itachi is a Genjutsu master regardless, so the fact that he was captured at all is quite funny. 



> The genjutsu was cast by Kabuto, with his own chakra and his own skill and his own boosts, so SM wasn't the only factor effecting the efficency of that genjutsu. Tayuya was just a medium.




Kabuto is worse than Tayuya at Genjutsu (4.5 vs. 5), so you're actually helping _me_ out.

Thanks.


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## Ƶero (Feb 21, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Itachi defeated a perfect sage without killing intent and being on the defense. Sage mode is irrelevant. Why is Itachi's genjustu so underrated.. I know why because if people actually go by what the manga shows of his execution no one will beat Itachi in the battledome.


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2014)

Almonds said:
			
		

> I know why because if people actually go by what the manga shows of his execution _no one will beat Itachi in the battledome_.




Welp, now I realize I've been wasting my time.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Welp, now I realize I've been wasting my time.



Glad you realized you had nothing but fallacies.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Ƶero said:


>



What are you trying to say? If you still don't think that was intentional on Itachi's part after he explained it was a chapter or two later then I can see why Minato vs Itachi is still a topic people such as yourself feel you have an argument in. 

Itachi moves off deception... Minato shows everyone his cards. Itachi analyzes and chooses the best course of action.. Minato underestimates and believes his FTG techinique will get him through.. However it has shown to be able to fail and not only that but his application isn't on par with the originator. 

Since Itachi doesn't give a tell of what he is about to do unlike Minato.. I say Minato fall more times into Itachi's traps then Itachi falling into Minato's telegraphed attacks.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Minato fans are like Pactard (Pacquiao fans) no matter how much he fails, no matter how much of a one trick pony he is. They will always consider him better than the better technician and strategist i.e Mayweather/ Itachi.. no matter how much skill they show. They go for the flash dramatic things in the ring but never appreciate the subtle skill along with mental fortitude that breaks down a range of different opponents. No


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## lathia (Feb 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Got to disagree w/ this people should be glad Itachi is not in the current battle because Kishimoto would ultimately write himself into a corner where he's forced to asspull BS for Itachi to make him credible in the battle as he's not going to show Itachi get steamrolled; he's too important of a character for that and if anything Kishi has shown he doesn't give a shit about things making sense story/strength wise, if it can help him write himself out of a corner; case and point Minato's SM. This is not to say Itachi is as strong as Minato, not even close in-fact, because Kishi made the decision to not have Itachi fight on this stage and ultimately that is the decision that shows Kishi does not consider Itachi as strong as the main stars of this battle are or will become. Same deal would apply if someone like J-man, he's inferior because Kishi never allowed him to fight on this stage, but if Kishi did bring J-man back to fight, he'd have J-man magically pull shit out of his ass that would make him so much stronger than before; bascially powerscaling is running rampant right now, so any important character thrown into the current battle will probably end up rising at least 1 tier, if not multiple. So yeah I'm glad Kishi decided Kabuto-battle is as far as Itachi goes, as otherwise he'd probably be asspulling his own SM equivalent right now and Itachi-fandom would be unbearable.



I understand what you're saying and my first post on this thread touches up on that. Itachi will forever be at a stand still power wise. His battle feats topped at a somewhat "healthy" Itachi level with no MS deterioration. It's sad, but at least he has Sasuke to get verbal points.

Onto your point though. What can Kishimoto truly do for Itachi and still make Madara believable as a villain? Nothing. No MS technique and no Crow Mode ass-pull will allow Itachi to touch Madara. Look at Hashirama, if anyone had a chance of beating Madara, it would be him. Not because he's powerful, but because he is Madara's eternal rival. They share relevance together and some of that relevance was passed on to Sasuke. I guess Obito will play a role in that as well.

Itachi will get some of the good guy praise thanks to Sasuke (look at Obito's comment about Jiraya) and that is all that's left for him. It's too bad he won't be the only one. Naruto is still there and the lolprophecy will only come into fruition through him. That much Itachi knew. Hell, he's been all over Naruto praising him ever since he realized he failed in life and had to trust others.


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Minato fans are like Pactard (Pacquiao fans) no matter how much he fails, no matter how much of a one trick pony he is. They will always consider him better than the better technician and strategist i.e Mayweather/ Itachi.. no matter how much skill they show. They go for the flash dramatic things in the ring but never appreciate the subtle skill along with mental fortitude that breaks down a range of different opponents. No




I suggest you stop comparing magical super ninja to modern day professional boxers, especially since the comparisons you make are nonsensical.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 21, 2014)

Elia said:


> - manga scan please.
> - oh please, tell us more. How itachis  ms is better than obitos? And what the different between
> Obitos ms at 14 or 30? Please give proofs cuz talk is cheap.



How about Deidara and Sasori getting blitzed by Sai, meanwhile Sasuke, who has blitzed Sai's reactions, was not able to do the same to Deidara in a frontal Shunshin. How about the fact that Tobirama stated that they were not at full power, although nearly at it (with Orochimaru's improved Edo Tensei with Kabuto's knowledge on top of his own exclusive knowledge).

The difference is that Obito had not mastered MS at 14. There is simply no indication of that. Great, he was able to slip through some of Minato's attacks. Kakashi was doing hax stuff too with Kamui but he arguably hasn't even mastered his MS or has only done so in the War Arc. Obito doesn't have the same reaction feats that he has at 30. Just reacting to a few attacks from Minato aren't much. If Minato had been using his Shunshin from the start like when he caught Naruto before Obito could stab him, Obito would have been even more phucked.



richard lewis said:


> First off the edo's where nearly at full strength, if we look at guy's like muu for example do you really think he was that much stronger when he was living? he could use all the same jutsu as an edo that he could use when alive and at virtually the same power considering his jinton matched onoki's. Even nagato appeared to actually be stronger than pein and use his jutsu more efficiently. So if there is a strength difference between edo's and living it is marginal. BTW minato and tobirama where also edo's and they where still blitzing juubi obito so going by your logic they will be even faster when alive which makes it even less likely that itachi could react.



Nagato is stronger in solo mode. Muu was never seen on screen alive. Only that he lost to Madara and that he tied with the Second Mizukage in their fight. Minato and Tobirama were not "blitzing" Juubito. If anything, it was quite the opposite. I already explained that Juubito was not trying to avoid their attacks because he thought nothing would hurt him. 



> Actually I think obito is a couple years older than kakashi, could be wrong but obito graduated from the academy at age 9 where as kakashi was only 5, assuming they both joined minato's team immediately after graduating that makes obito 4 years older. regardless he hasn't shown any feats to suggest he could react to ftg when older in fact just the opposite.



Pretty sure the Databook lists him as the same age as Kakashi.

XD, he reacted here: V2-Hiraishin CQC

And here: 2

Only reason Tobirama was able to tag him the second time was because he was distracted. Tobirama even states it. 

And Juubito was even able to stick a black element dama on Minato before he could warp. V2-Hiraishin CQC

Lol yep, he couldn't react alright.



> since when is itachi's precog better? I'm pretty sure 3 tomoe sharingan provides the same buffs for everyone it's just that some use it more efficiently than others.



Better reflexes + equal Sharingan precog = better overall precog. Itachi has better reaction feats than 14 year old Obito. 



> Minato in SM can avoid eye contact and track itachi via sensing, he can dodge virtually everything in itachi's arsenal with foot speed bar amaterasu which he has ftg for. He's got itachi beat pretty decisively here.



This much I agree with. Genjutsu is STILL possible, but as I said, highly unlikely. i.e Izanami is still available which btw hasn't been restricted. And Minato has A LOT of regrets so he would be in prime position for that if he can pull it off. But if Minato doesn't close his eyes, he can definitely fall prey to Genjutsu. He also doesn't start in Sage Mode, and it's not proven that he can immediately go into it.


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> How about Deidara and Sasori getting blitzed by Sai, meanwhile Sasuke, who has blitzed Sai's reactions, was not able to do the same to Deidara in a frontal Shunshin. How about the fact that Tobirama stated that they were not at full power, although nearly at it (with Orochimaru's improved Edo Tensei with Kabuto's knowledge on top of his own exclusive knowledge).
> 
> The difference is that Obito had not mastered MS at 14. There is simply no indication of that. Great, he was able to slip through some of Minato's attacks. Kakashi was doing hax stuff too with Kamui but he arguably hasn't even mastered his MS or has only done so in the War Arc. Obito doesn't have the same reaction feats that he has at 30. Just reacting to a few attacks from Minato aren't much. If Minato had been using his Shunshin from the start like when he caught Naruto before Obito could stab him, Obito would have been even more phucked.
> .



- No, just no. That's just prove Sai has improved not the other way around. Sasori was indeed weaker though, but not because the ET limited his power, but because he did not have any of his puppets.  

- Again, no. 
Because Kabuto's ET is better than Oro's even after the improvement. Tobirama's statement include Hashi, Hiruzen, Minato, and himself. Itachi has nothing to do with Oro's ET. 

Also, you must have forgetting that Onoki for example said Mu was as strong as ever. Or Kabuto
when he said madara's power in ET form is beyond his power in his prime...etc. 

- That's why I asked you for proof, where did the manga ever mentioned that he has no mastry over his MS at that time? PROOFS I need EVIDENCES. 

- Please, I told you to support your argument because talk is cheap, and what did you come up with? Nothing.  I don't see manga pages, links or anything!


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## Complete_Ownage (Feb 21, 2014)

Minato in my opinion was always ahead of Itachi but not by much however with his new asspull power up he should sit comfortly ahead


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 21, 2014)

Elia said:


> - No, just no. That's just prove Sai has improved not the other way around. Sasori was indeed weaker though, but not because the ET limited his power, but because he did not have any of his puppets.



Even if Sai has improved, he still has not shown Hebi Sasuke level of speed after that. It's very obvious that Deidara was not at full power. 



> - Again, no.
> Because Kabuto's ET is better than Oro's even after the improvement. Tobirama's statement include Hashi, Hiruzen, Minato, and himself. Itachi has nothing to do with Oro's ET.



How is Kabuto's ET better than Orochimaru's when Orochimaru absorbed all of Kabuto's knowledge? There were things Orochimaru knew that Kabuto didn't, and so the combined knowledge has made Orochimaru even better at Edo Tensei. 



> Also, you must have forgetting that Onoki for example said Mu was as strong as ever. Or Kabuto
> when he said madara's power in ET form is beyond his power in his prime...etc.



Lol. You're going to take Kabuto's statement over Hashirama's? Oh I forgot, you don't like Hashirama so you'll just discount his statement of regaining his full power. Even though he's the one who actually knew Madara back in his hay day.

The fact of the matter is that alive Madara is more powerful than Edo Madara. Kabuto statement does not change that. But Kabuto's statement does shed light on the fact that the percentage gap was smaller than the other Edos. 

Oonoki's assessment was over the fact that Muu matched his Jinton once. Is that an accurate read on his abilities? I think not. 



> - That's why I asked you for proof, where did the manga ever mentioned that he has no mastry over his MS at that time? PROOFS I need EVIDENCES.



No, where does the manga mention or even SUGGEST that Obito had mastered his MS at 14 and that his speed hadn't changed one bit at all in those 16 years?



> - Please, I told you to support your argument because talk is cheap, and what did you come up with? Nothing.  I don't see manga pages, links or anything!



I didn't think I'd have to actually spoon feed you the links. But I'll give you as many as you need.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 21, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Itachi defeated a perfect sage without killing intent and being on the defense. Sage mode is irrelevant. Why is Itachi's genjustu so underrated.. I know why because if people actually go by what the manga shows of his execution no one will beat Itachi in the battledome.



Itachi did not defeat Kabuto. It was Itachi AND Sasuke vs. Kabuto. Kabuto did not want to kill Sasuke eiher. However, he did school Itachi twice and Sasuke and edo tensei regeneration saved his ass. If not for Sasuke, Tayuya's genjutsu defeats Itachi. 

Itachi's genjutsu is not underrated. It is overrated by his fans. Genjutsu needs either eye contact or him pointing to Minato. However, making eye contact with Minato is close to impossible because the guy moves so freaking fast. We have seen this when A fought Sasuke and Madara. Madara had to restrict him and force eye contact. With hiraishin, restricting Minato ain't happening. Now, the finger genjutsu is all fine and dandy but someone with better chakra control than Naruto can break it. 

You say sage mode does not make a difference? Please! With sage mode, Minato definitely outlasts Itachi. Plus, now we can safely say that he can summon Ma and Pa. If he does, they can use senpou: kawazu naki, which is a sage mode vibration attacks and we know Itachi won't be able to sustain his susano'o given the experience with Kabuto. Even one second opening will spell death for Itachi because that is all Minato needs to tag him. Once tagged, Itachi is done for. 

I used to think that Alive Minato and Itachi were on the same tier but seriously with sennin moodo, Minato is not even on his level anymore. Let's stop these silly threads


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 21, 2014)

> I don't think we've seen Minato use KB enough to make an assessment on how he would or would not use KB in different scenario's. However my point wasn't that Minato showing KB means he's going to use KB-Feints, all the time, it was rather to express that the moment he showed KB, Kishi gave himself an "out" if Minato ever went up against Genjutsu, where he could just have it be a Bushin hit by the Genjutsu, allowing Minato to avoid it that way.


I don't see how Itachi would hit a bushin of Minato if Minato isn’t using it deceptively? This out your referring to of it being revealed to be a bushin is just another way of saying a clone feint. Minato hasn't been depicted as the feinting type, IC he tries to setup and overwhelm with speed usually.



> disagree w/ this, just having a KB out makes utilizing non-AOE Genjutsu more difficulty. Even if a Feint is not the conscious objective once the Bushin and original start moving around, it becomes hard to determine who the original is; and if were talking Tsukuyomi you don't want to waste that on a Bushin.



It wouldn’t be bad to waste on a bushin assuming Itachi is in reasonable health.  Using a bushin still would cost Minato half his chakra.



> Dude you have to build up chakra to your eyes to use any Dojutsu technique.


Some techniques, such as Magen:Kasegui, are stated to be instant and require nothing but eye contact.



> I don't see any evidence in the manga for building up and than saving a technique, this seems like a made up feat to me. Nagato sensed the build up for Amaterasu and Itachi did indeed us Amaterasu shortly thereafter; he - nor any Uchiha have shown the ability to "save" the technique for whenever the hell they want to pull it out in battle.


It wouldn’t have killed Itachi to not release Amaterasu when he did so instead of waiting another minute before casting it on the dog as he did. In addition, without the knowledge Nagato had Minato is at a loss for figuring out what it is Itachi’s about to do. He may sense a build up and actually end up looking at Itachi vigilant for what he’s trying to do. Furthermore, Minato must consciously choose to sense, so it’s unlikely he would sense anything unless he happened to try it at the moment  Itachi was preparing to use it. ^ This whole argument is admittedly weird though, as it doesn’t make much sense for a split-second eye contact ability to require lengthy build up, which is what you have to assume to even entertain this idea.



> The reasoning Kabuto cited for being able to fight w/ his eyes closed was purely SM sensing; nothing else. So now saying it's because of other sensing or that SM sensing does not grant this ability is disingenuous to what the manga has presented. On-top of that we've seen a Toad SM user fight blind before, when SM Naruto defeated Animal Realm inside pitch black darkness or when SM Naruto was able to fight effectively within smoke screens.



The fact remains both Naruto and Kabuto are complete outliers in sensing, and it’s a leap to ascribe their feats to Minato. Naruto was able to sense to the point of visualizing battles taking place in distant lands and Kabuto himself  is a composite being of multiple types of sensing who was capable of dodging susanoo without even seeing it. Jiraiya(Kishi) when fighting Pain explicitly stated most sensors, even with sensing, _still_ cannot fight efficiently without actually seeing. Fighting blind is not something that can be  nonchalantly ascribed to every sensor we learn about- it’s a rare ability.



> So were ignoring the whole necessity to place an eye in the crow? And Shisui's eye needs 10 years recharge?


Mmm, Itachi actively has crow with Sharingan in there eyes, so he doesn’t have to perform surgery mid battle. I don’t see where shisui’s eye comes into this though.


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## Antos (Feb 21, 2014)

Itachi genjutsu is very dangerous like Minato's speed but Itachi has better tools to counter Minato's speed than the other way around If Minato has to keep on the move he will only tire himself out Itachi is use to forcing Eye contact while even more so during counter attacks.  So unless Minato can defend against genjutsu like Kabuto he won't have as hard a time and if minato has to keep moving he gone tire and slowdown that is when Itachi will make his move.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I believe your point was that Sage Mode is irrelevant due to Minato already having the means to avoid everything Itachi wants to do (if that's the case then how can you support itachi anyway?). That doesn't support Sage Mode being useless.


That wasn't my point. 
My point was that Sage mode doesn't boost Minato's arsenal the way it'd boost Hashirama's or Naruto's. Nor it provides him the defense he lacks against Tsukiyomi or genjutsu in general.
It doesn't effect the match up.




> Rasengan isn't a bomb. It exerts a concentrated force upon its target, just like any physical impact.


I am not denying that Rasengan has physical impact. It explodes too so t isn't exactly like a punch either. 
My point stands.




> What exactly are the durability feats of Itachi's ribcage Susano'o that make you say that?



Sasuke's ribcage Susano'O tanked liger bomb, which packs more punch than any rasengan variant, save the high end ones(bijuu rasengan, FRS etc).



> Itachi is a Genjutsu master regardless, so the fact that he was captured at all is quite funny.


He was also captured by Kurenai's genjutsu. Also being a genjutsu master doesn't render him immune to genjutsu.

Thats like saying being a taijutsu master makes one immune to taijutsu.



> Kabuto is worse than Tayuya at Genjutsu (4.5 vs. 5), so you're actually helping _me_ out.
> 
> Thanks.



Always glad to inform.

Btw, what makes you think Tayuya's genjutsu is shit ? We don't even know how much SM improved it.


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## Ersa (Feb 21, 2014)

Minato defeats sick Itachi and goes 50/50 with Edo Itachi.

Same old, same old.

Minato's SM Rasengan isn't busting Susanoo when it couldn't even hurt Kakashi nor does he have the firepower to bust V4 Susanoo and the Yata's Mirror save for Shiki Fuujin.


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2014)

Master Sephiroth

What does Hashi know more than Kabuto exactly? 
Was Hashi their with Kabuto and saw everything? He does not know anything
he even thought he had killed madara, so yeah, I prefer to take Kabuto's words who has knowledge
than Hashi's ignorance words.  Since even madara himself stated that he was at full power against the
Gokage. However, only the Rinnegan was not at full power because he can't summon the GM. 

and if you want to bring Hashi's fans logic 
"He is Hashi, therefore he's all knowing, all mighty" or "Hashi does not need logic. Logic needs Hashi"
please don't waste your time.


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## Kyu (Feb 21, 2014)

Itachi won't opt for Amaterasu or Susano'o as they have zero chance of hitting Minato, thus a waste of chakra.  As others have stated, Itachi's best bet is landing Tsukiyomi - a visual technique the Yondaime Hokage has no way out of. Trying to land it on an evasive fucker such as Minato will pose the problem.

Once Minato goes SM he should have the overall advantage and is more likely to pick up the win. It's quite silly to say he receives no boosts at all from Sage Mode.

Base living Minato & a healthy living Itachi are equals. SM puts Minato over.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 21, 2014)

Elia said:


> Master Sephiroth
> 
> What does Hashi know more than Kabuto exactly?
> Was Hashi their with Kabuto and saw everything? He does not know anything
> ...



Are you kidding right now? What does Hashi know more than Kabuto? I dunno, I mean he only fought the guy time and time again and ended up almost killing him. What does Kabuto know about Madara when he wasn't physically there? 

Hashirama, Tobirama and his cohorts fought Madara for 24 hours straight before he was defeated. You don't think they didn't have full intel on him by then? And then Hashirama witnessed Madara's full EMS power when he fought at VOTE.

Madara stated he could use his full power when he was revived.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Dude you only prove time and time again that you're a hater. I never said anything like what you quoted about alleged Hashirama fans. Once again you resort to Strawman.


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## Dominus (Feb 21, 2014)

Elia said:


> Master Sephiroth
> 
> What does Hashi know more than Kabuto exactly?
> Was Hashi their with Kabuto and saw everything? He does not know anything
> ...



Edo Madara is stronger than EMS Madara, but alive Madara with Rinnegan and Mokuton is stronger than Edo Madara.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I suggest you stop comparing magical super ninja to modern day professional boxers, especially since the comparisons you make are nonsensical.


Nonsensical? Do you even understand what I was making references to? I was making references to the nonsensical fans of Pacquiao and Minato which you clearly showcases. You never gave a proper rebuttal or examples of Minato intelligence being even close to the level Itachi displayed in the Manga based on battle strategy alone. This is the battledome, the mindset of the characters should be taken seriously around here but it's not. Instead people go off power-ups and say because this person have more modes that will logical make them prevail. People just throw out the personality and mindset of these characters. Itachi is the most deceptive character shown in the manga where he literally have characters reactionary without doing much movement. Minato is reactionary.. He doesn't sit back and analyze his opponent to such depth levels to implement a correct plan to succeed except for that flashback where he had some success against Obito. Ever since then his intelligence feats have been incredibly deflated, showcasing some of the most bone headed mistakes. 


Senjuclan said:


> Itachi did not defeat Kabuto. It was Itachi AND Sasuke vs. Kabuto. Kabuto did not want to kill Sasuke eiher. However, he did school Itachi twice and Sasuke and edo tensei regeneration saved his ass. If not for Sasuke, Tayuya's genjutsu defeats Itachi.
> 
> Itachi's genjutsu is not underrated. It is overrated by his fans. Genjutsu needs either eye contact or him pointing to Minato. However, making eye contact with Minato is close to impossible because the guy moves so freaking fast. We have seen this when A fought Sasuke and Madara. Madara had to restrict him and force eye contact. With hiraishin, restricting Minato ain't happening. Now, the finger genjutsu is all fine and dandy but someone with better chakra control than Naruto can break it.
> 
> ...



You guys act like Itachi attacks without reason or without the proper assurance that he will make contact. Itachi stems on the defense, analyzing attacks with the proper defense and counters before he does a proper attack. He is the smartest with the Sharingan and the concept of using it at it's fullest advantage. Itachi isn't one who initializes an attack unless he has tempted tests of his own to see how his opponent utilize his skillset. He uses deception better than anyone shown in this manga... where he puts the person in off putting position to attack.

Genjutsu is powerful and it's even more so dangerous when utilized by Itachi, Itachi is the most advanced user of illusionary techniques shown in the manga. Madara haven't shown much, Obito haven't, nor have Sasuke... The only Uchiha that have feats that OP are Itachi. Shikaku even gave him props as being the only one being able to control minds from miles and miles aways of multiple people. Based off that type of hype we still didn't even scratch the surface of what he can do strategically and how OP his skill in genjutsu really is. People never know when they are in an Itachi genjutsu.. They know when he tells them. That shows how great he is in deception and tactics.


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Are you kidding right now? What does Hashi know more than Kabuto? I dunno, I mean he only fought the guy time and time again and ended up almost killing him. What does Kabuto know about Madara when he wasn't physically there?
> 
> Hashirama, Tobirama and his cohorts fought Madara for 24 hours straight before he was defeated. You don't think they didn't have full intel on him by then? And then Hashirama witnessed Madara's full EMS power when he fought at VOTE.
> 
> ...



- No. lol, what does that have to do with Kabuto's experiments on madara's body?
- Again, that IRRELEVANT. Madara added stuff to his body after they died, and Kabuto modified
his body even more, unless they were watching him from the heavens or where the hell they were they have no way to know what he did after they got killed in the First War. 

- Wrong translation is wrong. 

He basically excited to fight with his real body, to feel the pain, to feel the blood, rather than
being immortal zombi, that's why he was licking his blood after that. 



Authoritah said:


> Edo Madara is stronger than EMS Madara, but alive Madara with Rinnegan and Mokuton is stronger than Edo Madara.



Yes, this is true.


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't see how Itachi would hit a bushin of Minato if Minato isn’t using it deceptively? This out your referring to of it being revealed to be a bushin is just another way of saying a clone feint. Minato hasn't been depicted as the feinting type, IC he tries to setup and overwhelm with speed usually.
> .


Again how can we tell from the one time Minato used a Bushin that Kishimoto would never have him KB-Fient? 



> It wouldn’t be bad to waste on a bushin assuming Itachi is in reasonable health.


Even if we magically removed illness from Itachi, he'd still have fucked up eyesight from Mangekyo. That means 1 Tsukuyomi usage takes his eyesight to the point where he can't evade a Hebi-Sasuke level Shuriken trap; if that shit were to happen against Minato, Itachi is going to get bamflashed and the match is over; this is w/o even mentioning the chakra cost. So yes it would be very bad to waste Tsukuyomi on a Bushin.



> Using a bushin still would cost Minato half his chakra.[


No it doesn't as chakra is returned to the user when a Bushin is dispersed. Plus stamina is quite honestly of little concern for SM users. 



> Some techniques, such as Magen:Kasegui, are stated to be instant and require nothing but eye contact.


"instant" is clear hyperbola. If we go by hyperbola Base Minato blitz'd Obito who can move at the speed of light according to Zetsu, which means Itachi gets bamflashed zero difficulty. All Dojutsu techs require chakra build up in the eyes, otherwise what do you think is powering the technique?



> It wouldn’t have killed Itachi to not release Amaterasu when he did so instead of waiting another minute before casting it on the dog as he did.


Whether you believe the it would have killed Itachi or not, doesn't change the fact that the author has never shown the technique to work that way. It's always been chakra build up - than release. 



> In addition, without the knowledge Nagato had Minato is at a loss for figuring out what it is Itachi’s about to do. He may sense a build up and actually end up looking at Itachi vigilant for what he’s trying to do. .


Pretty sure Minato as the Hokage knows about Uchiha and there Dojutsu Genjutsu, so if he sensed a build up to the Dojutsu he'd be wary enough to defend or at least avoid eye-contact. I mean otherwise we are treating Minato like an idiot.



> . Furthermore, Minato must consciously choose to sense, so it’s unlikely he would sense anything unless he happened to try it at the moment Itachi was preparing to use it. ^


Whether Minato is sensing or not would come down to what Kishi wants to happen w/ the plot or makes IC for Minato in that specific situation, but considering Kishi has now had Minato go up against numerous Uchiha and never once has Standard Sharingan Genjutsu done anything, it's pretty fair to say Kishi isn't having that happen.

Also this is a more than a two way street. Itachi has to have Genjutsu prepared at a moment where Minato is not sensing, there isn't a danger of a Bushin-Fient, Minato is making eye-contact,  and Minato doesn't move out of eye contact at super speeds before Itachi can build up chakra to actually cast the illusion. Otherwise he'll end up wasting Tsukuyomi and the recoil of Tsukuyomi will leave him open to be casually bam-flashed. That is a much more tall order and dangerous game Itachi needs to play. One which apparently stronger Uchiha than Itachi didn't think was worth the attempt.



> This whole argument is admittedly weird though, as it doesn’t make much sense for a split-second eye contact ability to require lengthy build up, which is what you have to assume to even entertain this idea.


It's not split second, again that shit is hyperbola. We've seen MS techniques take time to cast, it's a brief period of time, but Minato being thee fastest character short of Rikudo Incarnation can certain react. For fucks sake the dude was able to throw a Kunai to Madara's position, enter SM, and FTG attack Madara w/ a Rasengan, before Kakashi could complete his Kamui against Obito. We've seen Ei whose slower than Base Minato dodge Amaterasu no problem and saw Madara have to hold Ei down to hit him w/ Genjutsu.



> he fact remains both Naruto and Kabuto are complete outliers in sensing, and it’s a leap to ascribe their feats to Minato. Naruto was able to sense to the point of visualizing battles taking place in distant lands and Kabuto himself is a composite being of multiple types of sensing who was capable of dodging susanoo without even seeing it.


What? Naruto's sensing was from Toad Sage Mode, the same exact one Minato displayed this chapter. Kabuto credits his sensing to Senjutsu, which again Minato displayed this chapter. That's the facts, and again I find the attempt to take this ability away from Minato's Senjutsu pretty disingenuous as we've been given no reason to think Minato's Senjutsu wouldn't have the same abilities we've seen from every other Senjutsu users and ones that are in-fact using an identical SM.



> iraiya(Kishi) when fighting Pain explicitly stated most sensors, even with sensing, still cannot fight efficiently without actually seeing. Fighting blind is not something that can be nonchalantly ascribed to every sensor we learn about- it’s a rare ability.


Senjutsu users are not most sensors. We've seen them fight blind and it being credited to SM sensing so there is no debating this.



> Mmm, Itachi actively has crow with Sharingan in there eyes, so he doesn’t have to perform surgery mid battle. I don’t see where shisui’s eye comes into this though.


I thought we were talking about Koto trap. If were talking about Tensha Fuuin being used to seal another Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi in Shisui Eye Crow's Three Tome, than we must first make two assumptions that:

-It's possible to seal other MS Techs than Amaterasu w/ Tensha Fuuin
-Kishi would have it be IC for Itachi to set something like that up to use in the heat of battle instead of as a trap

Assuming both of those are true, than sure he can set up the crow in battle, but if anything would ever instigate Minato to use Sensing it would be someone summoning out a Sharingan eye'd crow and forehead poking it. I mean man we'd have to assume Minato is dumb as hell to not use sensing to figure out what's going on there and if he's sense well than he'll know crow is dangerous and avoid or casually murder it (it's just a crow afterall). Meanwhile Itachi having used an MS tech would have his eye-sight so fucked that he would get bamflashed GG'd easily afterwards. So not the smartest plan.

And I'd really like an answer to my question of if Summons + KB + Sensing/SM Sensing + Speed + Extremely Good Chakra Control + Being a Top Notch Ninja + Having Gone up against other Uchiah w/ Standard Dojutsu Gen doing nothing, is not enough to make one believe that the chance of someone being defeated by Genjutsu are slim to zilch, than what exactly is? What does one need to show to make this unlikely is basically what i'm asking at this point?

Because quite honestly if those skills aren't enough than it seems like according to you even Hashirama would be One-shotted by Tsukuyomi



lathia said:


> I understand what you're saying and my first post on this thread touches up on that. Itachi will forever be at a stand still power wise. His battle feats topped at a somewhat "healthy" Itachi level with no MS deterioration. It's sad, but at least he has Sasuke to get verbal points.
> 
> Onto your point though. What can Kishimoto truly do for Itachi and still make Madara believable as a villain? Nothing. No MS technique and no Crow Mode ass-pull will allow Itachi to touch Madara. Look at Hashirama, if anyone had a chance of beating Madara, it would be him. Not because he's powerful, but because he is Madara's eternal rival. They share relevance together and some of that relevance was passed on to Sasuke. I guess Obito will play a role in that as well.
> 
> Itachi will get some of the good guy praise thanks to Sasuke (look at Obito's comment about Jiraya) and that is all that's left for him. It's too bad he won't be the only one. Naruto is still there and the lolprophecy will only come into fruition through him. That much Itachi knew. Hell, he's been all over Naruto praising him ever since he realized he failed in life and had to trust others.



I don't think you do understand what i'm saying. I don't think Itachi is much stronger than what he's shown; like you I think at best he could get some flashback/indirect hype through Sasuke that raises his overall level to a certain extent, like I think we could end up getting similar hype for J-man if he is ever brought back up in discussion/flashbacks. So i'm not arguing Kishi considers Itachi anywhere near Minato. I'm arguing the opposite in-fact that because Itachi was never allowed by Kishi to fight on such a ridiculous stage as the current battle he's not as strong as Minato and the other stars of this fight. However if Itachi was suddenly brought back to fight in this battle I would be worried that Kishi would powerscale him nonsensically so he doesn't get curb stomped because there is no reason to bring back a majorly plot relevant character to have them be absolute fodderized w/o doing anything impressive. So if say Itachi turned out to be the mystery man w/ the feat I'd be like get ready for Itachi to rise up a tier if not several. That's all i'm saying.

Edit: Basically what I'm trying to say is that Kishi making Itachi the one of the main star of the Kabuto battle instead of making him one of the main stars of this much more high level battle was intentional on the author's part, and is what distinguishes Itachi from the level of those who are the stars in this battle.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Again how can we tell from the one time Minato used a Bushin that Kishimoto would never have him KB-Fient?


Kishimoto had ample amount of time to showcase that with Minato, it's simply not his character or mindset or tactical prowess to use KB for clone feints. 


> Even if we magically removed illness from Itachi, he'd still have fucked up eyesight from Mangekyo. That means 1 Tsukuyomi usage takes his eyesight to the point where he can't evade a Hebi-Sasuke level Shuriken trap; if that shit were to happen against Minato, Itachi is going to get bamflashed and the match is over; this is w/o even mentioning the chakra cost. So yes it would be very bad to waste Tsukuyomi on a Bushin.


Where are you drawing your conclusions from? You just said this is healthy Itachi right? Then shouldn't his eyeballs be restored. First off Itachi was shown to use Mangekyou techniques in succession on several occasions.  Itachi not being able to evade Sasuke's shuriken technique was due to the fact he was sick and also the fact he never chose to win that fight.. Minato dying and getting own since he was revived was not of his own design.  Minato does not use Bunshins to feint.. Not to bamflash a Karusu BUshin or one that explodes will be game over, as you know Minato does not possess eyes that can telegraph techniques being used by his opponents. Timing and execution will beat speed every time.


> All Dojutsu techs require chakra build up in the eyes, otherwise what do you think is powering the technique?


So did you actually pay attention to how the Sage mode sensing works? Naruto actually have to close his eyes, stand still, relax and concentrate to bring about accurate location of said person or objects. Basically sensing is useless.. Minato is not a relaxed fellow initially in battle about time he settle down and try to concentrate Itachi will kill him as he will not give him comfortability, Itachi has shown to take openings given.


> Pretty sure Minato as the Hokage knows about Uchiha and there Dojutsu Genjutsu, so if he sensed a build up to the Dojutsu he'd be wary enough to defend or at least avoid eye-contact. I mean otherwise we are treating Minato like an idiot.


Itachi at the age of 7, 3 years subsequent of Minato's death learned all of the secrets of the village and it's history as well as went on his own individual researches. Itachi therefore knows Minato more than vice versa. Minato will not know of Itachi's specific techniques or his superior Genjutsu which is in a class of it's own within his own clan. So Minato may know basic level genjutsu the clan may utilize but not the genius of Itachi's skill with it. Minato did not even know of the technique Obito utilized against him, so he does not really know the Uchiha clan as you are trying to insinuate. 


> Whether Minato is sensing or not would come down to what Kishi wants to happen w/ the plot or makes IC for Minato in that specific situation, but considering Kishi has now had Minato go up against numerous Uchiha and never once has Standard Sharingan Genjutsu done anything, it's pretty fair to say Kishi isn't having that happen.


 This is why I argue for people to take more stake in how characters are portrayed in the manga. How do a character approaches situations, how does the character think will determine how things will go more times than just listing how many power up one have over an other. Both characters have OHKO techniques but who has the better strategy between the two. Itachi have a 5 in speed and a 5 in intelligence.. He also have techniques that are finishers based off execution. Itachi has shown mentally to always play chess, while Minato have shown to be reactionary without taking precautions. That is the most dangerous mindset to have against someone of Itachi's caliber, Itachi's whole game is based off deception and making the opponent walk in to a trap and letting their guard down or keeping their guard too high.


> Also this is a more than a two way street. Itachi has to have Genjutsu prepared at a moment where Minato is not sensing, there isn't a danger of a Bushin-Fient, Minato is making eye-contact,  and Minato doesn't move out of eye contact at super speeds before Itachi can build up chakra to actually cast the illusion. Otherwise he'll end up wasting Tsukuyomi and the recoil of Tsukuyomi will leave him open to be casually bam-flashed. That is a much more tall order and dangerous game Itachi needs to play. One which apparently stronger Uchiha than Itachi didn't think was worth the attempt.



Itachi have crows with sharingans casting illusions already, Itachi already prepares a field of genjutsu. Minato have shown no feats against genjutsu. Minato have shown no feats of using Bunshin feints. This need to be address.. Do you really think that Tsukuyomi that failed was something Itachi did not plan against Sasuke? Do you not think that recoil was actually the disease eating away at his body? I mean after every Mangekyou technique shown in that fight Itachi suffered some drawback, and Black Zetsu noted that it was strange, that Itachi had to been injured severely.. note on the severely.


> It's not split second, again that shit is hyperbola. We've seen MS techniques take time to cast, it's a brief period of time, but Minato being thee fastest character short of Rikudo Incarnation can certain react. For fucks sake the dude was able to throw a Kunai to Madara's position, enter SM, and FTG attack Madara w/ a Rasengan, before Kakashi could complete his Kamui against Obito. We've seen Ei whose slower than Base Minato dodge Amaterasu no problem and saw Madara have to hold Ei down to hit him w/ Genjutsu.


The only technique of MS that was shown to take time was Amaterasu.. So why are trying to imply that to all other MS techniques. Amaterasu is basically like a summoning technique, drawing the user's blood to summon. Tsukyomi is instantaneous as was noted by Asuma Sarutobi, Kakashi was hit with a Tsukyomoi in mid syllables and effected for three days worth via Itachi taking it easy on him. Tsukyuomi can be cast instantenously as Itachi says the technique puts him in control of time and matter.. Minato gets caught more times than not even with Sage mode and if he decides to use sensing which doesn't show any reaction feats to incoming attacks then he will be sealed or set aflame.  Also stop using Madara and Sasuke feats with Genjutsu as though they have better feats than Itachi or utilize it better than the person who whole strategy is based off deception and is their main go to.


> Kabuto credits his sensing to Senjutsu, which again Minato displayed this chapter. That's the facts, and again I find the attempt to take this ability away from Minato's Senjutsu pretty disingenuous as we've been given no reason to think Minato's Senjutsu wouldn't have the same abilities we've seen from every other Senjutsu users and ones that are in-fact using an identical SM.


This is why your argument fails.. The SM Kabuto uses is an entirely different one than what Naruto, Jaraiya, and now Minato uses. They do not have the same sensing capabilities at all, so you can not use Kabuto feats. You guys just get carried away, don't you... Minato have shown to fail hard each time he gets a new power up so you guys try so hard to control the damage.. You know why Minato have failed through each power up? It's because he's really not a smart fighter, his strategy and skill to utilize his powers are not tactical.


> Senjutsu users are not most sensors. We've seen them fight blind and it being credited to SM sensing so there is no debating this.


Once again you can not use Kabuto feats for the Toad sages.


> I thought we were talking about Koto trap. If were talking about Tensha Fuuin being used to seal another Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi in Shisui Eye Crow's Three Tome, than we must first make two assumptions that:
> 
> -It's possible to seal other MS Techs than Amaterasu w/ Tensha Fuuin
> -Kishi would have it be IC for Itachi to set something like that up to use in the heat of battle instead of as a trap


Since we are going off of how Kishimoto have both describe IC for both characters. Minato will attack quickly, Itachi will have already set up an exploding clone. GG. That's the truth.


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## Foxsikes (Feb 21, 2014)

Why the hell is it that every time Minato gets a new feat or a new powerup, new threads sprout up that pit him against Itachi?  What is it about these two that people want to argue so much about?  They are two people who never even interacted.  sigh..


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2014)

@Almondsand

Sorry, but there is literally so much wrong with your post, that I would need to write a massive response to correct everything that is wrong or outright fallacious. However I'm not willing to put that amount of time or energy into Minato vs Itachi discussion anymore, when I feel like the conclusion is so dam obvious after last chapter, that it does not warrant that level of serious discussion.  Additionally the points you make could literally be argued for Itachi beating anyone. IF  Bushin, Insane Speed, Sensing, etc... don't even have a remote possibility to counter Tsukuyomi, than even Hashirama stands no chance.  I mean dam w/ your arguments forget Hashirama, Itachi would take down Rikudo-Sannin; after all he's just such a savy chess-master than Rikudo even despite his massive advantage in power, possessing vastly superior skills, etc... would ultimately be unable to avoid Itachi's tricks and be defeated. So really there is no point discussing this shit w/ someone like that; It's cool believe Itachi > anyone or whatever


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## eyeknockout (Feb 21, 2014)

honestly still not seeing anyone voting for minato explaining how SM vs itachi actually changes anything? Sure overall it makes minato stronger, but against itachi nothing changes.

his speed still doesn't exceed hiraishin, his hiraishin tags still get deflected by itachi even if they don't they get deflected by susanoo then itachi just backs up a little, or they cut cut in half by itachi fire shuriken, minato power still can't get past susanoo, minato's sensing can maybe tell him when amaterasu is coming but he could've already dodged it with hiraishin, minato could already just keep teleported away from everything with hiraishin and now that he has more chakra nothing changes because itachi isn't stupid enough to hold up susanoo unless he has to. Minato still has to avoid eye contact and all genjutsu. Itachi's already gone CQC with a sage before and RM naruto so it's pretty clear he can fight minato unless somehow minato's completely featless unexplained SM is greater than kabuto's which there's no proof at all. 

I seriously don't see anything non-negligible that changes for minato's side when facing itachi and since i already believed itachi wins high difficulty, it's pretty much the same now if we also factor in the fact minato has been portrayed as more stupid and untactical since his revival.


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## Almondsand (Feb 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Almondsand
> 
> Sorry, but there is literally so much wrong with your post, that I would need to write a massive response to correct everything that is wrong or outright fallacious. However I'm not willing to put that amount of time or energy into Minato vs Itachi discussion anymore, when I feel like the conclusion is so dam obvious after last chapter, that it does not warrant that level of serious discussion.  Additionally the points you make could literally be argued for Itachi beating anyone. IF  Bushin, Insane Speed, Sensing, etc... don't even have a remote possibility to counter Tsukuyomi, than even Hashirama stands no chance.  I mean dam w/ your arguments forget Hashirama, Itachi would take down Rikudo-Sannin; after all he's just such a savy chess-master than Rikudo even despite his massive advantage in power, possessing vastly superior skills, etc... would ultimately be unable to avoid Itachi's tricks and be defeated. So really there is no point discussing this shit w/ someone like that; It's cool believe Itachi > anyone or whatever



You just tried to give Minato abilities that Kabuto had, which the latter have an entirely different SM. You tried to give Minato feats that other ninja done. You tried to say Minato will use a KB feint when he have never done so or has shown he will do so IC. You are trying to verify your argument for Minato with other character accomplishments, You seen me calling you out on that and that is why you can't come up with a rebuttal. Your whole post I replied to was so wrong, that you even attempting to reply will have to concede on the fact you were wrong.  It's obvious you're very  mad that Minato have shown shithead blunders in the recent chapters despite his power ups. The brain farts this guy showcased literally spells bonafide fuck up and literally based off feats have no chance of outsmarting Itachi in a one on one. You can have big muscles but a skilled fighter more times than not will beat you. 

I think there are some Shinobi that can beat Itachi but it's not like Itachi is an easy opponent.


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## Kaiser (Feb 22, 2014)

Minato has been shown to be particularly emotional to the point it affected his jugement point when something concerns him particularly. However his quick thinking and smartness in battle didn't disappear at all. 

It's the same guy who rapidely after his entrance on the battlefield thought about leaving a kunai middle ocean to redirect a bijuudama when the alliance shinobi was about to be crushed any seconds when battle smart Shikamaru or powerhouse Hachibi had no ways to deal with the situation, even going a step further by placing the tags for the hokage barrier at the same time. 

It's the same guy who quickly analysed Obito's fail in controlling the beast and assault a rapid attack to try to finish him of meantime

Even in past chapter he still showed his calm, analytic and opportunist personality. Calm and analytic for calmly observing/sensing opponent's power(judging it greater than Obito's). 

Opportunist in the sense he used the distraction caused by Madara wondering about Gaara's sand blocking wall to try to blitz him with a ftg attack, sure it didn't work, but it was a smart, quick and well-played movement as he usually does

The power-scaling is completely different than his usual opponents however. For that reason, intelligence, quick thinking is simply not enough against overwhelming power


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## Almondsand (Feb 22, 2014)

His oppurtunistic personality as you described is not supplemented by some calm and analytic showing by Minato. He actually is very reactionary and move quickly which is why the scenario you described as him trying to take advantage failed. He doesn't use deception, he shows exactly what hes going to do in front of his opponent face which is why in recent chapters, he have been getting countered. The only time any success came about is when someone planned for him or told him how to use his technique to compliment the team.. Minato tried to act on his own and you see what you just saw last chapter. 

There's a thread currently in the Telegrams that laugh at the fact, Minato have actually aided Madara more so than hurt him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 22, 2014)

Foxsikes said:


> Why the hell is it that every time Minato gets a new feat or a new powerup, new threads sprout up that pit him against Itachi?  What is it about these two that people want to argue so much about?  They are two people who never even interacted.  sigh..



They just want Minato to win. 

With every new power up/jutsu, they go like "ok...* now* Minato can win !" confirming their doubts from before.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 22, 2014)

I don't have problem for Alive Base Minato >= Alive Itachi but ppl suggesting their gap being so big is just laughable portrayal wise. 

Seriously, if you really believe beating "no difference as adult" 14-year-old MS Obito puts Minato tier above Itachi, then let's put Minato above KCM Naruto + Kakashi + Guy + Bee since they can't land a single hit on Obito before Kamui reveal. Not even arguing full of PnJ: how Obito forget Hiraishin mechanism despite seeing his Sensei uses Hiraishin Kunai numerous times, why never try Sharingan Genjutsu with direct eye contact, and the possibility of Kyubi control nerf. After so you have Minato self-admission to SM Naruto that Obito is stronger than him. 

On the other hand Obito treats Itachi as a threat, keeping his promise until Itachi died, as the benchmark of MS Sasuke to benchmark of SM Naruto for Minato - never mind full of Edo Minato asspull powerups. But of course ppl can always get different interpretations like Base Jiraiya > Itachi and Kisame, or how Kishi keeps Itachi away from final battle because he's no longer match to Minato w/o asspulls.


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## Stermor (Feb 22, 2014)

do we still have so much problem with minato beating itachi?? 

look we all know that itachi has a chance to beat minato if he gets a tsukiyomi off... but can we all agree that him getting it off is about as likely as hell freezing over... 

even madara had to hold down the raikage to use genjutsu on him.. itachi doesn't have those options.. so he losses 99.9% of hte time..


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## Darth Niggatron (Feb 22, 2014)

Urghh. I'll just post here and be done with it.
Destructive Capacity
Itachi takes this handily. His Yasaka Magatama should be leagues above Minato's Rasengan.
Durability.
Let me introduce you to the world of powerscaling.
Hashi's gates could hold the Juubi, Juubito could destroy them just by standing up, RKD Madara>>>>Juubito in all aspects, SM Minato could survive taking a kick from RKD Madara.
Common sense shows that SM Minato is more durable than the gates that held the Juubi.
SM Minato takes this.
Intelligence/Strategy
Itachi takes this. Not that it matters, though. There's a reason why boxers would pound nerds, after all.
Knowledge
Minato was the Hokage. He has basic info on clans in the village including the Uchiha, a clan known for genjutsu. Even Gai, a fucktard in day to day life, knew to avoid their eyes. Safe to say Minato knows that too. The moment he sees a lolsharingan, he'll just close his eyes.

Hax
The game decider.
Tsukuyomi+Totsuka vs Hiraishin.
Itachi gets a win if he tags Minato with Totsuka.
Yea, right. Like that's ever going to happen.
Tsukuyomi is useless here due to Minato's knowledge. He'll just fight with his eyes closed.(SM Madara who isn't a natural sensor was raping everyone when he was blind. Minato is a natural sensor.)
Amaterasu isn't tagging Minato too.
How to put this, SM Minato w/o S/T barrier is enough to godstomp Itachi.
Also, concerning Tsukuyomi, answer this, would Tsukuyomi rape RS?
There's a reason genjutsu isn't used in top tier fights.


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## Turrin (Feb 22, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> You just tried to give Minato abilities that Kabuto had, which the latter have an entirely different SM. You tried to give Minato feats that other ninja done. You tried to say Minato will use a KB feint when he have never done so or has shown he will do so IC. You are trying to verify your argument for Minato with other character accomplishments, You seen me calling you out on that and that is why you can't come up with a rebuttal. Your whole post I replied to was so wrong, that you even attempting to reply will have to concede on the fact you were wrong.  It's obvious you're very  mad that Minato have shown shithead blunders in the recent chapters despite his power ups. The brain farts this guy showcased literally spells bonafide fuck up and literally based off feats have no chance of outsmarting Itachi in a one on one. You can have big muscles but a skilled fighter more times than not will beat you.
> 
> I think there are some Shinobi that can beat Itachi but it's not like Itachi is an easy opponent.


LOL, whatever man, just whatever


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That wasn't my point.
> My point was that Sage mode doesn't boost Minato's arsenal the way it'd boost Hashirama's or Naruto's. Nor it provides him the defense he lacks against Tsukiyomi or genjutsu in general.
> It doesn't effect the match up.




Of course it affects the match up. It gives him mega enhancements in strength and speed, meaning there's less of a chance Itachi will back him down and ensnare him with Tsukuyomi.

Itachi's win condition doesn't change,  but it becomes harder to accomplish.



> I am not denying that Rasengan has physical impact. It explodes too so t isn't exactly like a punch either.
> My point stands.




I'm trying to figure out what your point is. 

If they both have the same (or similar) end results, then why exactly does it matter how the damage is delivered?




> Sasuke's ribcage Susano'O tanked liger bomb, which packs more punch than any rasengan variant, save the high end ones(bijuu rasengan, FRS etc).




The Liger Bomb crater wasn't larger than the crater of Minato's Base Rasengan.

I'm not saying Rasengan would bust Susano'o, but it might break a rib if the Raikage was able to do it with his bare hands.




> He was also captured by Kurenai's genjutsu. Also being a genjutsu master doesn't render him immune to genjutsu.
> 
> Thats like saying being a taijutsu master makes one immune to taijutsu.




Itachi should be able to reflect Jutsu of Tayuya's level, or at least I would think based on his feats against Kurenai.




> Btw, what makes you think Tayuya's genjutsu is shit ? We don't even know how much SM improved it.




I was a little unfair towards her. It isn't exactly shit, just not something that should incapacitate Itachi and shut off his Ninjutsu when it couldn't even really beat Shikamaru coming from an actual Genjutsu master, unlike Kabuto.


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## Ghost (Feb 22, 2014)

If Minato enters SM right from the start he defeats Itachi comfortably (not easily but I don't see Itachi having a chance to win). 



Turrin said:


> However I'm not willing to put that amount of time or energy into Minato vs Itachi discussion anymore, when I feel like the conclusion is so dam obvious after last chapter



Nice to see you know how we feel about Itachi vs Jiraiya.


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## Turrin (Feb 22, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Nice to see you know how we feel about Itachi vs Jiraiya.


Difference is Minato does not have eyesight and health issues which throw him off his game. If Itachi  strains his eyes enough he can't avoid Hebi Sasuke level Shuriken traps; if he strains his health too much he starts hacking up blood, and exposes an opening great enough where he couldn't completely defend Hebi Sasuke's Katon Jutsu. Itachi pulls that shit against SM J-man and he's ether going to end up heavily injured or dead; even if pulled against Base J-man depending on the Jutsu J-man uses he could end up much worse off than the damage he received for exposing those openings against Hebi Sasuke. On-top of that if Itachi pushes himself too much he ultimately goes into cardiac-arrest, which means severe damage to his body or potential death. If Minato had the same handicaps, which caused him to die after straining himself and expose such huge openings that even Hebi Sasuke can capitalize on, I would still think J-man stood a chance at heavily injuring him or worse, despite having SM + KCM + BM. You simply can't have a character who has  such huge openings, that Hebi Sasuke is able to capitalize on to injure the character, and than turn around, and say stronger characters like the Sannin stand no chance of injuring the character or worse; it's really that simple. 

With that said you don't see me arguing J-man vs Itachi as much as I used to, because I also find it a bit pointless when Edo Itachi is now clearly superior to J-man, unless we skew conditions heavily in J-man's favor, like allowing him to start fully prepped out w/ SM & Toads summoned,etc... So I actually do feel the same way about Itachi vs J-man, i'm just not some radically fan who thinks Itachi even w/ shit eyesight and terminally ill still rapes J-man or J-man level Ninja.


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## Trojan (Feb 22, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> I don't have problem for Alive Base Minato >= Alive Itachi but ppl suggesting their gap being so big is just laughable portrayal wise.
> 
> Seriously, if you really believe beating "no difference as adult" 14-year-old MS Obito puts Minato tier above Itachi, then let's put Minato above KCM Naruto + Kakashi + Guy + Bee since they can't land a single hit on Obito before Kamui reveal. Not even arguing full of PnJ: how Obito forget Hiraishin mechanism despite seeing his Sensei uses Hiraishin Kunai numerous times, why never try Sharingan Genjutsu with direct eye contact, and the possibility of Kyubi control nerf. After so you have Minato self-admission to SM Naruto that Obito is stronger than him.
> 
> On the other hand Obito treats Itachi as a threat, keeping his promise until Itachi died, as the benchmark of MS Sasuke to benchmark of SM Naruto for Minato - never mind full of Edo Minato asspull powerups. But of course ppl can always get different interpretations like Base Jiraiya > Itachi and Kisame, or how Kishi keeps Itachi away from final battle because he's no longer match to Minato w/o asspulls.



do you consider madara defeating the Gokage, Naruto &b, Tobirama, Hashirama...etc to be impressive?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 22, 2014)

eyeknockout said:


> Itachi's already gone CQC with a sage before and RM naruto so it's pretty clear he can fight minato unless somehow minato's completely featless unexplained SM is greater than kabuto's which there's no proof at all.



Fighting kabuto and RM naruto does not mean you can tango with minato and come out with a win. You do realize minato is way faster than SM kabuto and has a more rapid/faster form of movement than RM naruto right?

Itachi tries to CQC with minato and he gets tagged giving minato a flawless way to reach itachi the entire match. Itachi should really hinge his victory on tsukyuomi as unlikely as it is(actually if anything SM sensing fucks up his chances with this more than anything).


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## Almondsand (Feb 22, 2014)

When have Itachi shown to be much easier to hit than the other way around? Minato with all the speed and power up he possess have been touched more times than Itachi, why is it that way? Yet everyone believes Minato more times than not will get a clean hit on Itachi? People Minato is not going to pull feints or expect them.. He fights charging in without cares of counters this is why I believe despite his massive power boost he will lose. He also looked straight into Obitos sharingan and stared. That an automatic win if that was Itachi, he explains this to killer Bee not to look at his eyes because it's an automatic trap.  Minato hve shown IC he will do so.. And that he will charge in.


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## Complete_Ownage (Feb 22, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> When have Itachi shown to be much easier to hit than the other way around? Minato with all the speed and power up he possess have been touched more times than Itachi, why is it that way? Yet everyone believes Minato more times than not will get a clean hit on Itachi? People Minato is not going to pull feints or expect them.. He fights charging in without cares of counters this is why I believe despite his massive power boost he will lose. He also looked straight into Obitos sharingan and stared. That an automatic win if that was Itachi, he explains this to killer Bee not to look at his eyes because it's an automatic trap.  Minato hve shown IC he will do so.. And that he will charge in.



Yea lets compare Itachi to Juudara and Juubito


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## Almondsand (Feb 22, 2014)

With help from the alliance?


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## eyeknockout (Feb 22, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Yea lets compare Itachi to Juudara and Juubito



well yes of course, if he's stupid enough to make those mistakes against the top tiers, why would he all of a sudden not make those same mistakes against someone he believes is even weaker? he looks directly in the eyes of juubito and madara but yet he is not going to look directly in the eyes of itachi? it makes no sense.

it's like saying "orochimaru was staring straight at itachi's eyes to see the sharingan, but he'd never do that against a normal uchiha" which is wrong because if you make the mistake with someone more dangerous then you'll make the mistake with someone less dangerous too.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 22, 2014)

New Folder said:


> do you consider madara defeating the Gokage, Naruto &b, Tobirama, Hashirama...etc to be impressive?



Why not? 

But what does that do to my point?  If you mean power level, on the other hand you still have fodders like old Hiruzen, who's revived together with Minato; Generals and rookies, who are at best borderline-Kage level - yet still keep on stealing panels. Let's not even mention countless fodders. They all worth nothing against Obito and Madara. Any single Kage Edo from Kabuto can contribute much more than they did.

BTW your new name confuses me.


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## Almondsand (Feb 22, 2014)

eyeknockout said:


> well yes of course, if he's stupid enough to make those mistakes against the top tiers, why would he all of a sudden not make those same mistakes against someone he believes is even weaker? he looks directly in the eyes of juubito and madara but yet he is not going to look directly in the eyes of itachi? it makes no sense.
> 
> it's like saying "orochimaru was staring straight at itachi's eyes to see the sharingan, but he'd never do that against a normal uchiha" which is wrong because if you make the mistake with someone more dangerous then you'll make the mistake with someone less dangerous too.



This is what I'm saying.. Minato in IC have no knowledge of Itachi at all. Itachi however has knowledge of Minato as well as SM as he knew what Kabuto was doing before he achieved his form and explained to Sasuke there are other SM places. People like to use Obito, Sasuke, and Madara limitations with genjutsu when Itachi is portrayed in the manga a much illusionist than all of them combined. He has shown to be deceptive with it as well as flexible and given hype to control multiple ninja at one time. Minato have shown to not be the type to analyze his opponent but more so doing so in mid attack.. He does this against opponent he have no clue about. That's is major flaw against Itachi


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## Vice (Feb 22, 2014)

This is absolutely absurd. Before Itachi fans always tried to argue that he was Minato's equal and now Minato has busted out KCM, BM and Sage Mode and is matched up against far stronger opponents than Itachi has ever faced yet now his fans are arguing that Itachi is stronger?

Bleh.


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## Almondsand (Feb 22, 2014)

Not stronger just a better tactician. Minato shows he is not a cerebral fighter which when fighting an uchiha let along Itachi you must have strategy. Minato also wears his thoughts on his sleeve.. Itachi base his best genjutsu on emotional mind games. That will make Itachi come out on top


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## Vice (Feb 22, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Not stronger just a better tactician.



Itachi has shown nothing as a tactician that Minato would be incapable of replicating. Nothing.



> Minato shows he is not a cerebral fighter which when fighting an uchiha



Minato's not fighing Uchiha, he's fighting Juubi-jin Rikudos. Let's stop pretending they're the same thing.



> let along Itachi you must have strategy.



This is a funny thing to say considering Itachi is by far the weakest of the main Uchiha.



> Minato also wears his thoughts on his sleeve.. Itachi base his best genjutsu on emotional mind games. That will make Itachi come out on top



Flying Thunder God. Sage Mode. Sage sensing. Kyuubi Chakra Mode. Bijuu Mode. The burden of casting genjutsu is all on Itachi and being able to keep up with Minato. Which he can't.

The fact that this has gone eight pages without being closed is a testament to the ridiculousness of the Battledome. Itachi has never been nor will he ever be on Minato's tier.


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## Trojan (Feb 22, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Why not?
> 
> But what does that do to my point?  If you mean power level, on the other hand you still have fodders like old Hiruzen, who's revived together with Minato; Generals and rookies, who are at best borderline-Kage level - yet still keep on stealing panels. Let's not even mention countless fodders. They all worth nothing against Obito and Madara. Any single Kage Edo from Kabuto can contribute much more than they did.
> 
> BTW your new name confuses me.



Because despite he's like 100 years old, they are all inexperience kids to him.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 22, 2014)

New Folder said:


> - No. lol, what does that have to do with Kabuto's experiments on madara's body?
> - Again, that IRRELEVANT. Madara added stuff to his body after they died, and Kabuto modified
> his body even more, unless they were watching him from the heavens or where the hell they were they have no way to know what he did after they got killed in the First War.



Except Hashirama was talking about Madara's general abilities, because he hadn't used anything regarding the Rinnegan or Mokuton yet. Kabuto only knows what he could surmise from his experiments. 



> - Wrong translation is wrong.
> 
> He basically excited to fight with his real body, to feel the pain, to feel the blood, rather than
> being immortal zombi, that's why he was licking his blood after that.



Okay, wrong translation. But still, the portrayal is pretty obvious that he is stronger when he's alive. He went from being immobilized to casually breaking the Myojinmon. He was never indicated to have as much speed as he showed when he blitzed SM Naruto and Sai.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 22, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Because despite he's like 100 years old, they are all inexperience kids to him.



Everyone are kids in front of Madara including Itachi. 

but he's 40+ years old in appearance and power despite the 100-year-old truth, that fake youth.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say  that.
> I said Hirashin is Minato's top speed and it doesn't change with SM.



The change is that he'll be able to strike faster post-teleportation, 'cause y'know better reflexes. 



> Baseless speculation.



Says the guy who doubts Rasengan will do anything to the weakest Susanoo variant. In other words, you're not in the best position to call "baseless speculation". 



> He didn't lack eyes actually. He had snake cornea over them, but like I said, the snakes don't need a clear vision, they have infrared vision.



Kabuto is not a snake. He purposely blinded himself and relied on Sage sensing. 




> Actually, Itachi & Sasuke bypassed Sage sensing with 4 magatamas. Kabuto couldn't react to the arrow shot right after them. The same arrow he could casually dodge a second ago, so the magatama did the actual work of distracting Kabuto.
> 
> Sasuke also outmanuvered SM Madara and stabbed him.
> 
> Sage sensing is overrated as fuck.



Sasuke, the superior Uchiha I mentioned, _his_ attack managed to get by Sage Sensing. Itachi's only worked because Kabuto forgot he had a horn i.e. Itachi couldn't do anything meaningful to Kabuto.

Sasuke>>>>>>>>>Itachi, which really doesn't help when you're talking about Itachi. Furthermore one could easily say Madara allowed himself to be hit, seeing as he was interested in observing Sasuke; it was said he chose to let Sasuke live for a while.




> What ET enhancements ?
> 
> And no, SM doesn't allow him to rape Itachi.



Itachi not huffing and puffing after 5 uses of the MS (when not using chakra intensive Ninjutsu) due to infinite chakra is a huge enhancement. So is regeneration.

ET Itachi was raped by Kabuto (Sasuke was there to prevent Itachi from being a mindless drone again), that was mostly Kabuto using Sennin powers. So it stands to reason that someone who could take Itachi comfortably would rape him in SM.


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## Garcher (Feb 22, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Everyone are kids in front of Madara including Itachi.



Nope. Itachi was already Hokage Level with 7 years. This was the time Madara was a stupid little baby-boy, but Itachi already solod.


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Nope. Itachi was already Hokage Level with 7 years. This was the time Madara was a stupid little baby-boy, but Itachi already solod.



Troll much? Who needs a hokage mindset when you're already soloing adult senju's. And madara had an hokage mindset too (but he was probably older than 7 but still)


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## Vice (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Troll much?



Of course, he's an Itachi fan.


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

Vice said:


> Of course, he's an Itachi fan.



Lol aren't all itachi fans.


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## CurlyHat (Feb 22, 2014)

Itachi loses to base Minato. SM is just an overkill. Itachi's only to do something against Minato is tsukoyomi, and that's not landing for sure. Minato has sensing. clones and FTG to conter Itachi's amaterasu and tsukoyomi, and the rest of itachi's jutsus just aren't gonna cut it. Minato is fast enough to pressure Itachi into going in Susano? almost instantly. All Itachi could really do is camp in Susano?, where it becomes a stall fight and whoever runs out of chakra first loses. Minato  can activate SM, which indicates his high chakra reserves, and that's something Itachi has always lacked. Minato can also use the Summoning: Food cart destroyer technique to potentialy injure Itachi even in his Susano?. If he can summon Ma and Pa they could pretty much use frog song and Itachi's a done by then. Itachi's bunshin faints aren't gonna work on minato because of his FTG and superior reflexes, so that's about it... Minato doesn't need SM to win this fight. He's arsenal is based on Tobiramas, and we know the Second Hokage's arsenal was created to counter uchihas.


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## Wolfstein (Feb 22, 2014)

Tsukuyomi was the only argument made in Itachi's favor. 

Hilarious  

It doesn't matter though, since Minato has_ always _been above Itachi.


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## Trojan (Feb 22, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Tsukuyomi was the only argument made in Itachi's favor.
> .



Don't underestimate Tsukuyomi it does solo all.

Hashirama Vs itachi? It's true that Hashi has great chakra and huge jutsus, so adding SM does nothing to him, it's the same thing, it will come down to whether itachi can land the Tsukuyomi or not, so it's 50% for each to win. 

Tobirama Vs itachi? It's true that Tobi has great chakra and some jutsus, so adding ET does nothing to him, it's the same thing, it will come down to whether itachi can land the Tsukuyomi or not, so it's 50% for each to win. 


Minato Vs itachi? It's true that Minato has great chakra and some jutsus, so adding SM, KCM, BM do nothing to him, it's the same thing, it will come down to whether itachi can land the Tsukuyomi or not, so it's 50% for each to win. 

...etc with all the character.


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## Wolfstein (Feb 22, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Don't underestimate Tsukuyomi it does solo all.


Tsunade says hi. 



New Folder said:


> Minato Vs itachi? It's true that Minato has great chakra and some jutsus, so adding SM, KCM, BM do nothing to him, it's the same thing, it will come down to whether itachi can land the Tsukuyomi or not, so it's 50% for each to win.



Minato can simply close his eyes and continue to fight, so yes Sage Mode does do something for him.


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## StickaStick (Feb 22, 2014)

Not sure why ppl are even bringing up Minato vs 14-or-whatever yr old Obito. That fight was clearly mired with PIS on both ends. Despite being able to cast genjustu on an advanced level where he is able to control Kurma and Yagura Obito doesn't even consider using it here and Minato as the hokage should be aware not to look right into a Uchiha's eyes (as he's suspicious this could be Madara). And then you have Obito not having knowledge on FTG which is plain unbelievable, but that's besides the point.

Basically it comes down to this, Minato is so fast (his speed feat this recent chapter is off the charts) that Itachi isn't going to be able to do anything to him while Minato will be able to pressure Itachi relentlessly and eventually force him into using Susano where it then becomes a matter of when Itachi starts suffering from chakra exhaustion... and it's game over.


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Don't underestimate Tsukuyomi it does solo all.
> 
> Hashirama Vs itachi? It's true that Hashi has great chakra and huge jutsus, so adding SM does nothing to him, it's the same thing, it will come down to whether itachi can land the Tsukuyomi or not, so it's 50% for each to win.
> 
> ...



Same thing same thing same thing, no. Genjutsu doesn't work on perfect jins so try again. Or just don't include BM minato, BM naruto, Bee etc.
And I see what you're trying to get at with SM not affecting anything but hashirama has crazy chakra control so I think he could resist it ( I doubt it tho ), Tobirama has experience against Uchiha ( fought them basically his whole life ).


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

And hashi can basically close his eyes and fight, just like Madara did. And I don't see why minato can't either.


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## Vice (Feb 22, 2014)

Jesus Folder, you think Hashirama vs. Itachi is 50/50?


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## Wolfstein (Feb 22, 2014)

Vice said:


> Jesus Folder, you think Hashirama vs. Itachi is 50/50?





His logic was that Tsukuyomi grants Itachi a 50% chance to take down anyone.


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## Trojan (Feb 22, 2014)

Vice said:


> Jesus Folder, you think Hashirama vs. Itachi is 50/50?



lol, no. 
I basically stating what itachi's fans think about him. 

Imo all the hokages are way stronger than itachi. I hardly see itachi on the sannin level. 

lol@ people! my previous post was sarcasm for God's sake.


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## Wolfstein (Feb 22, 2014)

New Folder said:


> lol, no.
> I basically stating what itachi's fans think about him.
> 
> Imo all the hokages are way stronger than itachi.* I hardly see itachi on the sannin level*.



Thank god, I thought you were serious. 

I  highly agree with the bold. 

People were iffy about Jiraiya being equal to Itachi since Itachi was supposedly equal to Minato.

What they failed to realize is that Itachi was never Minato's equal.


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## Vice (Feb 22, 2014)

Okay, good. I was legitimately going to be angry there.


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## Almondsand (Feb 22, 2014)

Vice said:


> Itachi has shown nothing as a tactician that Minato would be incapable of replicating. Nothing.


Itachi have shown that he is better at formulating plans that are efficient and quick to the point. Minato have shown to be reactionary and will attack without giving much thought to how he should approach his adversary. He seems to rely on FTG as the all deciding factor to his victory in battles and does not care enough to think of possible counters. Minato also have shown that when working with a group, he is not a team player or leader. He does not come up with anything.. He follows orders while Itachi have shown to do the exact opposite.  Minato based on battle prowess fails massively. He also tends to gaze straight in to a sharingan, Itachi's sharingan is automatic genjutsu trap. IC Minato will be caught in the first seconds of meeting Itachi.



> Minato's not fighing Uchiha, he's fighting Juubi-jin Rikudos. Let's stop pretending they're the same thing.


He has a team.. Why is he fighting like he is by himself? Itachi will utilize and get everyone on the same page to execute. Not rushing or being reactionary but gaining control and maintaining control. Since the disappearance of Tobirama and Hiruzen things have went down hill. 



> This is a funny thing to say considering Itachi is by far the weakest of the main Uchiha.



This is arguable but even so he have shown to use his skillset the best out of all the other Uchiha shown. He uses his mind and analyze the situation calmly while the others just seem to rush in. He's also have shown to be the best at Genjutsu. That's all that's needed to defeat Minato whom does not look for counters and has a reactionary approach to battle. 


> Flying Thunder God. Sage Mode. Sage sensing. Kyuubi Chakra Mode. Bijuu Mode. The burden of casting genjutsu is all on Itachi and being able to keep up with Minato. Which he can't.


He has no feats of Sage sensing.. at least on par with Kabuto as he was countered easily in SM and did not see it coming. The burden is on Minato not to get caught with a feint, which he will more than likely will be caught with. Itachi never tries to keep up, He outsmarts. Timing >>> Speed.


> The fact that this has gone eight pages without being closed is a testament to the ridiculousness of the Battledome. Itachi has never been nor will he ever be on Minato's tier.


Minato have shown no feats of tactical prowess that suggest he will not be decieved and avoid traps by attacking Itachi. He does not stand back, He does not possess eyes that will telegraph attacks for him.. and he does not have the mind to outsmart Itachi. He has shown to make many errors.


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## Tengu (Feb 23, 2014)

Itachi won his fight against Deidara using genjutsu, the first time he defeated Orochimaru he used genjutsu, in part 1 he used genjutsu to defeat Kakashi (Tsukuyomi), part 2 Naruto was defeated twice by Itachi using genjutsu, Sage Kabuto was defeated by a genjutsu (Izanami). Itachi won most of his battles using genjutsu.

And people are saying here that genjutsu won't work since Minato is Minato. (even though Minato has never shown any genjutsu skills at all)

And they call us trolls.


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## Fiiction (Feb 23, 2014)

Minato is a great sensor, he sensed more Juubi chakra in madara while he was in base. And SM increases that so just imagine.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 23, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Thank god, I thought you were serious.
> 
> I  highly agree with the bold.
> 
> ...





No matter you like it or not, Itachi is clearly above Sannin level when the author himself shows him defeating Orochimaru w/o all new feats twice despite in his dying state and Jiraiya himself never succeed once. Unless you do believe the Base Jiraiya > Itachi and Kisame otherwise what's your point?


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## eyeknockout (Feb 23, 2014)

so much itachi hating in this thread that i had to come back here just to say...itachi solos


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## Wolfstein (Feb 23, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> No matter you like it or not Itachi is clearly above Sannin level


Despite what anyone says, or what you think, Jiraiya and Itachi are roughly around the same level. Kishimoto even made it so obvious as to match their DB scores (35 points).  


Legendary Itachi said:


> despite in his dying state


He wasn't dying, he was sick.  He was in his dying state against Sasuke. 



Legendary Itachi said:


> Jiraiya himself never succeed once.


What crap are you spewing from your mouth? I'm surprised your vocal cords allow this. 



Legendary Itachi said:


> Unless you do believe the Base Jiraiya > Itachi and Kisame otherwise what's your point?


Who said that? Where did I even once mention anything of the sort? What lol?



Lastly due to your name and the nature of your posts I probably won't respond. I know your type, not in the mood for an illogical, Itachi solo's worshiper. (apologies if you aren't that)


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## Jet Pistol (Feb 23, 2014)

I knew Itachi wank was bad, but I didn't know it was this bad. This is just atrocious.

I'm pretty such the fandom could argue that he'd fare better against Juubito and Juubidara than Sasuke, Naruto, and everyone else.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 23, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Despite what anyone says, or what you think, Jiraiya and Itachi are roughly around the same level. Kishimoto even made it so obvious as to match their DB scores (35 points).



DB total scores are fanmades. Old Hiruzen has a higher score than Kisame (68>65) but we all know Kishi will never make Old Hiruzen stronger than Kisame.


Wolfstein said:


> He wasn't dying, he was sick.  He was in his dying state against Sasuke.



He was in dying state when Orochimaru challenges Itachi with Yamata no Jutsu from Sasuke's body.



Wolfstein said:


> What crap are you spewing from your mouth? I'm surprised your vocal cords allow this.



I don't think Kishi intends to write Sannin power that far. All Sannin get new feats in part 2, whoever gets stronger powerup depends on personal opinion, but relatively they shouldn't hold any big advantage against each other. Kishi may suck in trying to equalize Sannin, but in story perspective Jiraiya wouldn't trump Orochimaru and Tsunade with Sage Mode, especially when Jiraiya never prevail Orochimaru once in Part 1 from Kishi's own words. At best it would be stamlate.




Wolfstein said:


> Who said that? Where did I even once mention anything of the sort? What lol?



Some Jiraiya fans use Itachi's words to prove Jiraiya's superiority, my apologies if being wrong and rude.



Wolfstein said:


> Lastly due to your name and the nature of your posts I probably won't respond. I know your type, not in the mood for an illogical, Itachi solo's worshiper. (apologies if you aren't that)



Nah, to me Itachi isn't far away from Sannin in power level, but there is still a clear gap between them. He wouldn't write Itachi as the only known Shinobi who poses threat to Sannin in part 1 and let Itachi beat Orochimaru twice if they hardly have any difference in power. I'd prefer to use benchmarks of SM Naruto and MS Sasuke to compare Itachi and Minato - of course before all the asspull power ups for Minato lol.


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## Almondsand (Feb 23, 2014)

Jet Pistol said:


> I knew Itachi wank was bad, but I didn't know it was this bad. This is just atrocious.
> 
> I'm pretty such the fandom could argue that he'd fare better against Juubito and Juubidara than Sasuke, Naruto, and everyone else.



Itachi shown in his last two battles that he has a knack for formulating strategies and getting his team on the same page. He shows that he will not act or randomly give orders without taking the proper assessment of the situation first which doesn't take him long at all. From that stance of my argument, Itachi will be a more valuable asset for the alliance. He's the one that preached the philosophy "Every Jutsu have a weakness", this proves to me he will figure something out and make sure everyone can properly execute. Minato doesn't think this and hve been more of a burden/liability to that alliance since he arrived. Sakura have shown more composure and assurance as well as calm to come up with the best action.. Minato panic several times as if showed how dangerous that is.. kishimoto never portrayed Itachi in a mode of panic or of not knowing how to deal with circumstance.

People say I'm hating on Minato but they ignore that I am giving examples of author portrayal. Get mad at kishimoto.. Not me for bringing these things up. 

Minato also doesn't have any long range jutsu or elemental jutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

You know you could make a case that SM Minato could react to A... Think about it.


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## Almondsand (Feb 23, 2014)

A moves in a straight line so he can easily countered as was demonstrated by Sasuke when countered A. Itachi have much better reflexes than Sasuke.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> A moves in a straight line so he can easily countered as was demonstrated by Sasuke when countered A. Itachi have much better reflexes than Sasuke.



Itachi had slightly better reflexes than Sasuke, but he was severely slower than A.


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## Almondsand (Feb 23, 2014)

You do not have any interaction between Itachi and A. We do have a mutual opponent of B whom Sauske and Itachi both fought on separate occasions to get a better portrayal of their reflexes. I know you are kidding on Itachi having *slightly* better reflexives as portrayal indicate otherwise.  A have speed but Sasuke have better reflexes and timing.


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## Almondsand (Feb 23, 2014)

Sharingan have proven that A speed is no trouble for it by what Sasuke and Madara displayed against him


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The change is that he'll be able to strike faster post-teleportation, 'cause y'know better reflexes.


Doesn't change much, SM speed boost isn't that signfiicant afterall. It is like sharingan precog in that regard, gives you more time to react. Doesn't exatly allow you to move much faster.



> Says the guy who doubts Rasengan will do anything to the weakest Susanoo variant. In other words, you're not in the best position to call "baseless speculation".


Of course I doubt  it. Do you expect me not to just because you said so without any actual claim to back it up ? 

We know the damage treshold of ribcage Susano'o.  Prove that rasengan can inflict more damage than Raikage's Liger bomb or Karate chop and I'll concede.



> Kabuto is not a snake. He purposely blinded himself and relied on Sage sensing.


I didn't say he was a snake but he has snake like properties. He has snake eye lids. 



> Sasuke, the superior Uchiha I mentioned, _his_ attack managed to get by Sage Sensing. Itachi's only worked because Kabuto forgot he had a horn i.e. Itachi couldn't do anything meaningful to Kabuto.


Sasuke, pre PS is by no means superior to Itachi. It is a fact known to all.

I didn't mention Itachi chopping off Kabuto's horn, no idea why you keep bringing that up, even though it was mainly Kabuto bullshitting. 

I mentioned Itachi distracting Kabuto with 4 magatamas, and Sasuke nailing him with the arrow.
The same arrow Kabuto dodged a minute ago without any trouble.

Now put those in equation format and tell me what made the difference. Hint, its not the arrow.




> Sasuke>>>>>>>>>Itachi, which really doesn't help when you're talking about Itachi.



In terms of taijutsu or speed ? No.



> Furthermore one could easily say Madara allowed himself to be hit, seeing as he was interested in observing Sasuke; it was said he chose to let Sasuke live for a while.



Sure, you could easily say that.
And I'd easily ask for evidence.



> Itachi not huffing and puffing after 5 uses of the MS (when not using chakra intensive Ninjutsu) due to infinite chakra is a huge enhancement. So is regeneration.


You mean Itachi not having the fatal illness which was the cause of huffing and puffing.
The op stated that he is healthy, so it is not an issue here.



> ET Itachi was raped by Kabuto (Sasuke was there to prevent Itachi from being a mindless drone again), that was mostly Kabuto using Sennin powers. So it stands to reason that someone who could take Itachi comfortably would rape him in SM.



Actually it was the other way around. Kabuto got raped in the end. The Funny part is, Itachi was holding back nearly everything he had. In this match he isn't. Big difference one might say.

Also Kabuto & Minato have completely different arsenals so you can't make a comparison here.
Nice try though.




Rocky said:


> Of course it affects the match up. It gives him mega enhancements in strength and speed, meaning there's less of a chance Itachi will back him down and ensnare him with Tsukuyomi.



It doesn't mega enhance his speed, that'd be KCM and even that didn't do so.

Aside from Hirashin's speed, Minato doesn't pose a threat to Itachi, he'll never run up to him and kill him with raw speed anyways. 

Besides, Minato isn't a taijutsu oriented fighter. He has  Hirashin, all the physical boosts of SM become redundant because Hirashin grants him better mobility and a better chance to outmanuver his opponent.  So with the stuff they have(hirashin, Susano'o), I doubt taijutsu will be decisive @ any point.

I don't see how SM makes a significant change except for a scenario where Hirashin is restricted. Then I'd say it'd make a big difference.



> Itachi's win condition doesn't change,  but it becomes harder to accomplish.


Ultimately ? No it doesn't.

SM doesn't grant Minato advantage over Itachi MS arsenal.



> I'm trying to figure out what your point is.
> 
> If they both have the same (or similar) end results, then why exactly does it matter how the damage is delivered?



An attack with a smaller radious creating a bigger or comparable enviromental damage to an attack with a bigger radious packs more power behind it.

'Pound per pound', raikage inflicts more damage.



> The Liger Bomb crater wasn't larger than the crater of Minato's Base Rasengan.


To me the crater created by liger bomb seems larger. And much much deeper.

crater



> I'm not saying Rasengan would bust Susano'o, but it might break a rib if the Raikage was able to do it with his bare hands.


No.
Why do you keep comparing rasengan to Raikage's "bare hands" ? 
Raikage damaged Susano'o with the Karate chop, which is a piercing attack, the same attack he used  to chop off Hachibee's horn and his own hand.

We know that different types of damage have different results.



> Itachi should be able to reflect Jutsu of Tayuya's level, or at least I would think based on his feats against Kurenai.


Its speculation. We don't know if he can reflect sound genjutsu. We also don't know where Tayuya's genjutsu stands compared to Kurenai's, or their skill levels for that matter.

Kurenai beat her own genjutsu simply by biting her own lip.

My own assesment is that, Itachi should witness the casting of the genjutsu with his sharingan to be able to replicate it. Assuming that it is something that sharingan can replicate.




> I was a little unfair towards her. It isn't exactly shit, just not something that should incapacitate Itachi and shut off his Ninjutsu when it couldn't even really beat Shikamaru coming from an actual Genjutsu master, unlike Kabuto.



I don't know how shikamaru managed to control his kage mane but I am not sure if Tayuya's genjutsu shuts down ninjutsu or not. Can't say eitherway. Might be plot no jutsu on Shika's part if that is actually the case.

Eitherway, I wouldn't consider it a low level genjutsu. I mean, there is no need to believe so. We just assume it is because Tayuya's overall level is fairly low.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Doesn't change much, *SM speed boost isn't that signfiicant afterall.* It is like sharingan precog in that regard, gives you more time to react. Doesn't exatly allow you to move much faster.



Manga says otherwise. 



> Of course I doubt  it. Do you expect me not to just because you said so without any actual claim to back it up ?
> 
> We know the damage treshold of ribcage Susano'o.  Prove that rasengan can inflict more damage than Raikage's Liger bomb or Karate chop and I'll concede.



If you can prove that variant Susanoo can tank what you're claiming, then we can take this forward.



> I didn't say he was a snake but he has snake like properties. He has snake eye lids.



But he said he blocked the light and he's relying on sensing.



> Sasuke, pre PS is by no means superior to Itachi. It is a fact known to all.
> 
> I didn't mention Itachi chopping off Kabuto's horn, no idea why you keep bringing that up, even though it was mainly Kabuto bullshitting.
> 
> ...



Actually MS Sasuke>>>>Itachi was well established and supported by Itachi himself. So saying Sasuke can do something doesn't mean Itachi can.

The Magatama thing is meaningless as there wasn't a need to dodge them; they weren't going to touch him. 

You're exaggerating the effect of the Magatama.



> Sure, you could easily say that.
> And I'd easily ask for evidence.



The evidence is Madara's interest, but denying Madara's interest is like denying Minato's Rasengan power.



> You mean Itachi not having the fatal illness which was the cause of huffing and puffing.
> The op stated that he is healthy, so it is not an issue here.



You're exaggerating the illness again. Manga says the "fatal illness" only affected his speed slightly and made him cough. That is all; he still had horrible chakra levels. 



> Actually it was the other way around. Kabuto got raped in the end. The Funny part is, Itachi was holding back nearly everything he had. In this match he isn't. Big difference one might say.
> 
> Also Kabuto & Minato have completely different arsenals so you can't make a comparison here.
> Nice try though.



Kabuto never got raped by Itachi. Itachi was the least held back, after all. 

Minato is a Sage, Kabuto is a Sage. It was the Sennin power that raped Itachi. Ergo Itachi will be raped; he lacks ET enhancements and Sasuke's immense help.


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## Turrin (Feb 23, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> DB total scores are fanmades. Old Hiruzen has a higher score than Kisame (68>65) but we all know Kishi will never make Old Hiruzen stronger than Kisame.
> .


You can say that Stat Totals are fanfic and I agree, but what do you think the author is trying to imply when he gives both Jiraiya and Itachi the best stats in DB3? Objectively speaking, I would say the author is trying to convey that Jiraiya and Itachi had the best skills/performances in the manga out of all the characters recorded in DB3. And this does in fact suggest a measure of equality.

Furthermore, the Blot chart used in the Data-books measures a Shinobi as a whole, or you could say shows us the total picture and the chart suggests that both Itachi and Jiraiya are the most complete Shinobi in DB3, by covering the biggest portions of the chart and that they are equally "complete".



> He was in dying state when Orochimaru challenges Itachi with Yamata no Jutsu from Sasuke's body.


Orochimaru w/o a host body is also a dying man who can't cast any Jutsu requiring his hands due to Shiki Fuujin. Both had major handicaps by the time that battle began. They clashed their strongest Jutsu [at the time] and Itachi won out, but not without paying a heavy price. 



> I don't think Kishi intends to write Sannin power that far. All Sannin get new feats in part 2, whoever gets stronger powerup depends on personal opinion, but relatively they shouldn't hold any big advantage against each other. Kishi may suck in trying to equalize Sannin, but in story perspective Jiraiya wouldn't trump Orochimaru and Tsunade with Sage Mode, especially when Jiraiya never prevail Orochimaru once in Part 1 from Kishi's own words. At best it would be stamlate.


People think that the Sannin are suppose to reflect equality, due to the three way dead lock myth, but recent chapters makes it extremely clear that this applies exclusively to the Sannin's Boss summons; Manda > Bunta > Katsuya > Manda, with them all being relatively equal. After-all Kishi says there is a New Three Way Deadlock, when Sasuke, Naruto, and Sakura; pull out Aoda, Kichi, and Katsuya, but do we honestly believe Sakura is going to be equivalent to Naruto or Sasuke? No it's just their summons. 

The same is true of the Sannin. No way in hell Orochimaru isn't by far the strongest Sannin at this point, considering he can now summon back at least 4 legendary Ninja to fight for him w/ Edo Tensei & also has Senju Hashirama's DNA. So unless you think Kishi is going to reveal new feats from J-man or Tsunade that matches the insane level that puts Orochimaru on [which de-facto would place J-man & Tsunade well above Itachi], than one must acknowledge that Kishimoto does not care to have the Sannin be equivalent to each other at all times and that at different times 1 Sannin can be stronger than the other Sannin. 

Jiraiya from Part I to Part II, until his death was very clearly the strongest Sannin, due to the fact that he could actually use Sennin Modo; something the other two Sannin had not mastered. Orochimaru could use a bit of Senjutsu, but not enter the actual mode. Apparently Tsunade never learned this skill or like Orochimaru she can only use Senjutsu for very specific Jutsu. Back in the day we didn't know how big of a difference this made, but nowadays with SM/Senjutsu constantly getting increasingly impressive feats, the gap between SM J-man and the other Sannin back then couldn't be more evident.



> Some Jiraiya fans use Itachi's words to prove Jiraiya's superiority, my apologies if being wrong and rude.


Itachi's words don't suggest superiority, but they do suggest that he could have a rough time fighting Jiriaya and basically convey a general hesitance to fight Jiriaya. There is no reason not to take those words serious as everything that has come after that statement, has 100% supported it. We've seen in the Hebi Sasuke fight that, Itachi due to his eyesight and health issues exposed opening that Hebi Sasuke could capitalize on him and suffered massive damage just from the strain of the fight until he eventually died. This more than supports why Itachi would be apprehensive to fight an enemy like Jiriaya who at least when in Sannin Modo becomes a-lot stronger than Hebi Sasuke. Further supported by the fact that we've seen Itachi show a great deal of  respect for the strength of SM, in the Kabuto fight, and the fact that we've seen one of the best ways to combat Sharingan-Users & Itachi is through the utilization of sound-based attacks, something which just so happens to be Fusaku and Shima's bread and butter.



> Unless you do believe the Base Jiraiya > Itachi and Kisame otherwise what's your point?


Given Itachi's being Hokage-level in wisdom at the age of 6 and investigating ancient ruins just to gain knowledge at the same age, I struggle to think that Itachi believes all J-man's got is his base form. In-fact I'm much more willing to believe that someone of Itachi's wisdom/knowledge would know that Jiriaya can utilizes Sannin Modo.



> Nah, to me Itachi isn't far away from Sannin in power level, but there is still a clear gap between them. He wouldn't write Itachi as the only known Shinobi who poses threat to Sannin in part 1 and let Itachi beat Orochimaru twice if they hardly have any difference in power. I'd prefer to use benchmarks of SM Naruto and MS Sasuke to compare Itachi and Minato - of course before all the asspull power ups for Minato lol.


Kishimoto has never had Itachi fight a full power Orochimaru. Itachi's counter to Edo Tensei is Izanami + Tsukuyomi, to land that combo on Orochimaru while being pressured by Orochimaru + Tensei would be extremely difficult for Itachi, even w/ Orochimaru in command of the weakened Part I Tensei, in command of the stronger Part II Tensei I personally don't see how it's even possible. 

But bottom line, Orochimaru is not Jiriaya. Orochimaru lacks both a Sannin Modo and the Sound Based Jutsu which Jiraiya has access to, and Itachi has shown hesitance to face or has been shown heavily pressured by. That's the main difference between them. 

With that said I think Itachi has now become stronger than Jiriaya w/ Edo Tensei Buffs, but back when he was sick/dying he'd have a hell of a time dealing w/ Jiriaya.


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## Trojan (Feb 23, 2014)

why would Minato destroy the Susanoo if he can teleport it?


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## Kyu (Feb 23, 2014)

Why would Minato warp it, if he can outlast the person inside?

Never saw the point of Minato trying to combat a fully-erect Susano'o head on. Keep your distance and wait for the fucker inside to collapse from exhaustion.

Use Susano's inability to hit you to your benefit.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

Didn't Minato warp Sasuke out of his Susanoo?


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## Rocky (Feb 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It doesn't mega enhance his speed, that'd be KCM and even that didn't do so.
> 
> Aside from Hirashin's speed, Minato doesn't pose a threat to Itachi, he'll never run up to him and kill him with raw speed anyways.
> 
> Besides, Minato isn't a taijutsu oriented fighter. He has  Hirashin, all the physical boosts of SM become redundant because Hirashin grants him better mobility and a better chance to outmanuver his opponent.  So with the stuff they have(hirashin, Susano'o), I doubt taijutsu will be decisive @ any point.




Since we're probably going to keep going in circles, I'm just going to address the point I still care about.

Hiraishin is only impressive because of Minato's natural reflexes. If Minato was reflexively on par with Konahamaru, than he'd be much "slower", regardless of the instantaneous teleportation. Sage Mode is a major enhancement to reflexes, as Kabuto & Naruto have clearly demonstrated.

When I speak of speed, I'm not talking about literal foot speed. I'm using the word "speed" in the same way the Raikage uses it when he admits _inferiority_ to the 4th in the category. Sage Mode "mega enhances" his reflexes, which in turn makes his "speed" with Hiraishin all the more dangerous. Ya follow?


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## Almondsand (Feb 23, 2014)

Yet got kicked in his chest, niggoa!

Reflexes ain't that great and he opts always for close quarter combat with just one attack.. Nothing complicated he does.


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## Vice (Feb 23, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Yet got kicked in his chest, niggoa!
> 
> Reflexes ain't that great and he opts always for close quarter combat with just one attack.. Nothing complicated he does.



That's probably because Juubidara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi


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## Garcher (Feb 23, 2014)

Itachi vs Minato is like Vegeta vs Yamcha.

Itachi wins, stop the lame excuses haters


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

Alive Itachi (without Susanoo) was pretty much stomped by weaker Senjutsu (CS2). It is possible with knowledge (on Sasuke's part), the weaker Senjutsu would have stomped Susanoo Itachi too.

So with the Senjutsu point alone, Minato destroys Itachi. Itachi has a poor record taking on perfect Senjutsu users on his own. This is why he was on the level of an imperfect Senjutsu user.


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## Ƶero (Feb 23, 2014)

How is this thread still going? 
Only Alive Minato vs Edo Itachi was debatable and this was before SM. Now its a stomp in Minato's favor.
Face it Itachi tards this is over, Minato won. Deal with it.


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## Trojan (Feb 23, 2014)

Ƶero said:


> How is this thread still going?
> Only Alive Minato vs Edo Itachi was debatable and this was before SM. Now its a stomp in Minato's favor.
> Face it Itachi tards this is over, Minato won. Deal with it.



Because itachi's fans never give up. lol

Perhaps we would have to wait and see Minato fighting with his SM. U_U
even though it's obvious, but they are itachi's fans after all. U_U


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## Garcher (Feb 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Alive Itachi (without Susanoo) was pretty much stomped by weaker Senjutsu (CS2). It is possible with knowledge (on Sasuke's part), the weaker Senjutsu would have stomped Susanoo Itachi too.
> 
> So with the Senjutsu point alone, Minato destroys Itachi. Itachi has a poor record taking on perfect Senjutsu users on his own. This is why he was on the level of an imperfect Senjutsu user.



Itachi pretty much solod Kabuto. This is the only real face-off between Itachi and a Sennin Mode user, and Kabuto actually held the advantage.

Sasuke was protected by Itachi in the end in that fight.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Itachi pretty much solod Kabuto.



After getting stabbed, chopped and paralysed?



> This is the only real face-off between Itachi and a Sennin Mode user, and Kabuto actually held the advantage.



Kabuto - held back a lot to keep Sasuke safe. (We'll probably find out the extent of this soon.)
Sasuke - held back a lot (such as PS, Enton etc).

Itachi, just one Susanoo variant.

In terms of going all out, Itachi was *the least* held back. Yet he was also severely enhanced i.e. stronger than he ever was in his life. Even then he required Sasuke to take on a SM user.



> Sasuke was protected by Itachi in the end in that fight.



You mean when Sasuke stopped Itachi from becoming a drone, twice and bailed Itachi out of paralysis?

Against a SM user, Itachi only protected Sasuke... once (twice counting the mutual paralysis). Sasuke saved Itachi... twice (trice counting the mutual paralysis). 

ITT Itachi lacks the severe ET enhancements he had _and_ is facing a SM user... one who could react (albeit slightly) to A whilst said SM user is in his base.


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## Jet Pistol (Feb 23, 2014)

Vice said:


> That's probably because Juubidara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi



I'm pretty sure they could argue that Itachi has a shot of beating him.


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## Trojan (Feb 23, 2014)

Jet Pistol said:


> I'm pretty sure they could argue that Itachi has a shot of beating him.



madara has no feat to counter itachi's Izanami or Tsukuyomi. So, it's 50% for each to win. U_U


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## CurlyHat (Feb 23, 2014)

Man, the Itachi wank is out of control in here 

Itachi is clearly in a league bellow Minato, no matter how you look at it. His very fighting style is based on the one of the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju. You know, the guy that created his style to counter the Uchiha clan? Tobirama killed Uchiha Fucking Izuna, a MS user that is potentially stronger than Itachi.

Minato is the perfect counter to Itachi. Itachi can't land a single hit on him, and Minato can easily outlast him at worst. Genjutsu is not a factor in this fight, because Itachi has no way to land a higher level genjutsu like Tsukuyomi on Minato. The Yellow flash is just too fast for that. SM is just an overkill. Yes, Itachi is strong indeed, but he's just up against an opponent that totally counters all of his skillset.


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## ZE (Feb 23, 2014)

It doesn't matter what SM does to Minato. What matter's is what's in Kishi mind after giving Minato such a power-up.

Kishi was the same guy who made:
Hashi go from EMS Madara level to God level with SM
Kabuto go from jounin level to kage level with SM
Naruto go from jounin level to kage level with SM

Minato would obviously have the same treatment. 
So if he was kage level without SM, he's even stronger than that now


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## ZE (Feb 23, 2014)

Jet Pistol said:


> I'm pretty sure they could argue that Itachi has a shot of beating him.



I'm pretty sure the manga says that the only way to beat a jyuubi jin is nature energy. Even if Madara stood still, Itachi would've no way to put him down, no nature energy on his side.


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## eyeknockout (Feb 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Alive Itachi (without Susanoo) was pretty much stomped by weaker Senjutsu (CS2). It is possible with knowledge (on Sasuke's part), the weaker Senjutsu would have stomped Susanoo Itachi too.
> 
> So with the Senjutsu point alone, Minato destroys Itachi. Itachi has a poor record taking on perfect Senjutsu users on his own. This is why he was on the level of an imperfect Senjutsu user.



what? since when is minato SM greater than kabuto's? and since when did kabuto stomp itachi when itachi was the one patting his forehead and walking away?


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## Vice (Feb 23, 2014)

eyeknockout said:


> what? since when is minato SM greater than kabuto's?



Since his base was stronger.



> and since when did kabuto stomp itachi when itachi was the one patting his forehead and walking away?



The whole fight until asspull.


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## ZE (Feb 23, 2014)

Vice said:


> Since his base was stronger.


That and toad SM boosts physical stats while Kabuto's doesn't. 
Toad SM=Everything is better, including jutsus, speed and strength
Dragon SM=It grants you new jutsus and that's pretty much it

Toad SM may not give you new jutsus, but it makes your jutsus stronger.


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## Turrin (Feb 23, 2014)

ZE said:


> It doesn't matter what SM does to Minato. What matter's is what's in Kishi mind after giving Minato such a power-up.
> 
> Kishi was the same guy who made:
> Hashi go from EMS Madara level to God level with SM
> ...



Honestly the craziest thing for me to think about is what this means for Shiki Fuujin. If Minato can use SM, that means his Base-Chakra level is quite high and would be even higher w/ Senjutsu. This means SM Minato should be able to create a fair number of clones that can all still utilize SM-Sensing + Hiraishin, and we know Shiki Fuujin can be wielded through clones. That means you could end up facing a bunch of crazy speed Minato's running around wielding the invisible Shiki Fuujin attacks. Quite honestly I don't think anyone bar characters w/ Hashirama and Madara's crazy scale attacks are totally safe from something like that. Granted it cost someone their life, but being able to GG anyone who is not Madara/Hashirama level or above is pretty ridiculous.


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## ZE (Feb 23, 2014)

What edo feats brought to Minato in the battledome:

1-Kage bushin
2-Huge chakra reserves (since he can use SM)
3-Teleportation of bijuu-sized objects instantly 
4-Sensing
5-SM (which gives him top tier strength, sensing and durability)
6-That jutsu he talked about and that he's gonna use sooner or later
7-One-handed handseals

I mean, it's huge. Just the fact that he has kage bushin is enough to make him even more problematic to deal with. And let me remind you that before all these, he was seen as someone on Itachi-Nagato's level. It's obvious these things make him go beyond that.

As for KCM, BM and BSM, I didn't count them because he can only use them as an edo. But it still shows he's strong enough to beat 50% of Kyuubi, because that's the only way you can claim its power and obtain KCM. 

Minato most likely beat 50% with SM like Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

eyeknockout said:


> what? since when is minato SM greater than kabuto's? and since when did kabuto stomp itachi when itachi was the one patting his forehead and walking away?



SM multiplies the users abilities the same way. I never said one SM was greater than another, not once. 

Count the amount of times Itachi would have been screwed if Sasuke wasn't there. This was also when Kabuto holding back.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 24, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Manga says otherwise.


Scans ? 




> If you can prove that variant Susanoo can tank what you're claiming, then we can take this forward.


I already did. 

Liger bombs area of impact is bigger than a rasengans and it only managed to break a small portion of a single rib. 
Once you can prove to me that SM rasengan can break something as durable as ribcage SusanO'o, we can stop talking about it.




> But he said he blocked the light and he's relying on sensing.


Doesn't change the fact that he is benefitting from other types of sensory skills a snakelike body grants him.
Kabuto had Oro's white snake properties, Sasuke explained he had to learn all about snake abilities to become DR. Snakes. And DR. Snakes told us that snakes can sense through temperature and smell.

I am sorry but no one has ever pulled anything like Kabuto did. I'll attribute those feats to Kabuto and no one else, unless they actually show that they are capable of doing so.




> Actually MS Sasuke>>>>Itachi was well established and supported by Itachi himself. So saying Sasuke can do something doesn't mean Itachi can.


Where ?



> The Magatama thing is meaningless as there wasn't a need to dodge them; they weren't going to touch him.
> 
> You're exaggerating the effect of the Magatama.



If it is meaningless  then why  did Sasuke's arrow hit him ? Those magatamas created an opening. Itachi basically showed us that he can bypass sage mode sensing by overloading it by multiple sources of threats. Made it look easy too.





> The evidence is Madara's interest, but denying Madara's interest is like denying Minato's Rasengan power.


I didn't deny Minato's rasengans power. I am just not buying the bullshit that it can bust through Susano'o. 

And Madara didn't get himself stabbed. He got stabbed, period.




> You're exaggerating the illness again. Manga says the "fatal illness" only affected his speed slightly and made him cough. That is all; he still had horrible chakra levels.


A terminal illness in its last stage doesn't have 'slight' effects. 
Zetsu thought Itachi was "severely" wounded before the fight. 
So yeah, the diseases effects were "severe." Lets just go with the manga this time eh ? 




> Kabuto never got raped by Itachi. Itachi was the least held back, after all.


On one hand we have Kabuto, using every ounce of his power to hit Itachi as hard as he can, and on the other, we have Itachi not even attacking Kabuto @ all. 

Yeah you are right, it is hard to gauge whoever held back the most. It is a close one 




> Minato is a Sage, Kabuto is a Sage. It was the Sennin power that raped Itachi. Ergo Itachi will be raped; he lacks ET enhancements and Sasuke's immense help.



But Kabuto didn't rape Itachi 

And those times Kabuto was able to land hits on Itachi didn't have much to do with any of the boosts SM granted Kabuto. I have no idea how you are able to liken this to Minato but Itachi has shown that he can casually keep up with SM Kabuto physically.



Rocky said:


> Hiraishin is only impressive because of Minato's natural reflexes. If Minato was reflexively on par with Konahamaru, than he'd be much "slower", regardless of the instantaneous teleportation. Sage Mode is a major enhancement to reflexes, as Kabuto & Naruto have clearly demonstrated.


SM actually doesn't increase reflexes like raiton shroud does. It isn't the exact same effect, it is more like sharingan precog but lets see where you'r going with this. 




> When I speak of speed, I'm not talking about literal foot speed. I'm using the word "speed" in the same way the Raikage uses it when he admits _inferiority_ to the 4th in the category. Sage Mode "mega enhances" his reflexes, which in turn makes his "speed" with Hiraishin all the more dangerous. Ya follow?


I think you got it all wrong.
Raikage has faster reactions than Minato, stated in the manga (C's statement). Raikage used the word "speed" to emphasize the overall speed, as the word itself would suggest.
Minato is faster than Raikge only because of Hirashin, this was also established in their brief skirmish.


I also fail to see how SM would make Hirashin more dangerous, if you'r saying that Minato will be able to move more swiftly between teleportations, then I'd say it would be a negligable difference.

Besides, we don't even know how much SM's 'speed' boost effected Minato.
We know for a fact that KCM didn't buff him as much as it did Naruto.



As for the match up, my overall point is : 

Itachi stilll can defend from everything Minato throws @ him with Susano'o. Catching Minato with genjutsu is still within the  realm of possbility, so is OHKO'ing him with Tsukiyomi.
Other than that, would Minato do a better job @ avoiding Amaterasu, Itachi's projectiles or Susano'o strikes ? Yes he would. But then, I wouldn't consider Itachi taking him down with those attacks pre-sm anyway because he could already avoid them with Hirashin.

edit : Ok one thing I can agree on. SM boost makes him physicall stronger, so he can throw his kunai faster and farther. That'd grant him better mobility, yes. That is probably the only real beneficial result of SM that syncs well with Minato's skillset.




eyeknockout said:


> what? since when is minato SM greater than kabuto's?



It isn't. 

Kabuto has the most impressive SM showing so far.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 24, 2014)

itachi no knowledge has a 65% shot at beating minato.


Minato with knowledge has a 85-90% shot at beating itachi.


the no knowledge scenario hasn't changed much, but with knowledge and superior stamina, minato with sm now has a more decisive win over itachi, he is comparable to nagato, this is all assuming his sm is as good as naruto's, for all we know naruto could of mastered it to a further extent but for now this is what i go with.

minato is more dominant in the knowledge fight then he was before.
itachi retains a mid to slight advantage in the no knowledge scenario.


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## Fiiction (Feb 26, 2014)

Kabuto rapes Itachi, end of discussion.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 26, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> You have no feats of Minato in SM. He did nothing but teleport and get annihilated casually. That's not getting the "best of SM Minato", that's making him his bitch without even using a single Rinnegan technique. He chopped his fucking arm off, used it to blitz a kamui user, then kicked him into a Kazekage- a Kazekage that avoided assaults from V3 Susanos and Enton variants- without FTG, from the kunai directly below him, being used.
> 
> You're just wanking Minato to wank him. The fact you addressed Itachi fans in this thread means your intention was to manifest a fan war, which in essence proves your a fanboy of Minato.
> 
> Regardless, SM Minato has no feats, thus it does nothing for him. It's not trolling to suspect such, it's common fucking sense. Sorry we don't want to buy your shitbag of fandom. Some of us realize this is actually fictional, and therefore debate it with a sense of logic.



Are you stupid? SM enhances a user's abilities. Minato's SM does not enhance him though right? It just makes his eyes look cool? Use common sense. If he has SM, then he is enhanced,

And are you not intelligent enough to reason that getting dominated by the strongest character to date does not make you weak it just means that character is out of your league?

Has the quality of battledome posters really deteriorated to this degree?


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## Lurko (Feb 26, 2014)

This match can go either way I'd go with Minato most of the time but he must not look into Itachi's eyes.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 26, 2014)

You guys do know that rasengan is still Minato's best GO2 offensive jutsu, right? Deal how. What are we looking at? What argument can be made in regards to Minato? The only thing he's proven thus far, is that one can react to HARASHIN, especially when counter attacking.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 26, 2014)

Minato being superior in general. Considering Itachi basically has amaterasu and Susano, moves that Minato is dodging with Hirashin. A implying genjutsu is not working on him due to his speed and Minato is faster. Makes sense since Minato will always be moving around so no time for eye contact. Hirashin alone kills his arsenal. Frog Summons too that can be teleported around. Long range combat becomes useless with his space time barrier. Kage Bunshins make it worse. Won't know even if the one you are targeting is the real him. And he can easily use that opening to wreck. Bunshins and Hirashin are some serious Hax. Not even mentioning SM increasing his reflexes, strength, speed, and jutsu potency. His defense is one of the best in the manga if not the best.

Try to blitz him or go into CQC with him? See A and Tobi two of the best CQC combatants in the manga. He had them beat without even using kage bunshins or SM. Long range? See Kurama's teleported bjuu dama.

All that can be done is hold up in Susano and hope there is not already a kunai at your feet. Then wait for your chakra to run out and let him finish you off.


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## Almondsand (Feb 27, 2014)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> You guys do know that rasengan is still Minato's best GO2 offensive jutsu, right? Deal how. What are we looking at? What argument can be made in regards to Minato? The only thing he's proven thus far, is that one can react to HARASHIN, especially when counter attacking.



Basically what I been saying the whole fucking time. That's how Minato got his arms ripped off, he jumps straight in, never feints, just figure his instantaneous speed will trump all. Hilarious though how he told Kakashi the weakness to Chidori but didn't take his own advice. Itachi as perceptive as he is not going to fall for such a straight forward attack and Minato has shown nothing else or tactical mind to adapt. Itachi deduces his opponent arsenal and when he moves he's figured out the weakness ad this inly takes a matter of seconds in kid battle.

I don't even have to go into his genjutsu and his better shuriken techniques let alone his MS. Itachi rapes based off his mind and perceptive abilities alone


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## lathia (Feb 27, 2014)

This is sad. I can't believe some of you guys are still trying. Let alone try to make a case for a MS Itachi vs a SM Minato. I'm sure his deteriorating MS will be logically better than a regenerating SM. Specially when Itachi can spam jutsus and not feel strained at all... . Better jump ship to Madara or Sasuke soon. Minato vs Itachi is so done, it's not even funny.


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## Vice (Feb 27, 2014)

Itachi fan logic:

Base Minato = Itachi so obviously Kyuubi Mode/Bijuu Mode/Sage Mode Minato still has to be = Itachi.

This was definitively over the moment Minato got KCM.


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## Almondsand (Feb 27, 2014)

Both of you have a douche minded way of reading posts. Assuming what the argument is instead of actually seeing the main points.

Minato have shown nothing of tactical relevancy in his recent feats while showcasing his new powers. He uses the most redundant variants of his base skillset. Harashin wielding a rasengan to strike in close quarters instantaneously. That's all he has shown yet he is suppose to catch Itachi who has shown the ability to quickly deduce and adapt? 

It's about IC mindset here, Minato have shown errors while Itachi have shown great deduction in mid battle and using basic skills at a superb level to overcome great power that is much more versatile than Minato have displayed. No one even mentioning power as it's pretty much isn't anything to talk about. Minato have only shown one method of fighting. He is inferior with shuriken as Itachi was portrayed as the best.. So FTG is basically out. Minato have shown nothing passed FTG ad even when he was able to get behind Bee, Bee reacted automatically and knew he was there. Itachi warned Bee he was behind him so Bee can react and instructed him the whole fight while shown superior reflexes to both Bee and Naruto at the sme time who are too tier with reflexes. Itachi is not falling for Minato linear attacks.. Minato is redundant, no matter how much more power he may have his skills is not up to par. He also have no counter to genjutsu and he has nothing to beat level 1 susano'o. Itachi counter FTG with Kunai and can summon bunshin while throwing Kunai.. He adapts while Minato simply doesn't.


Get it?


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## Fiiction (Feb 27, 2014)

How does itachi counter FTG?


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## Trojan (Feb 27, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> How does itachi counter FTG?



     Tsukuyomi, the answer for everything.


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## Azula (Feb 27, 2014)

there are still people like tsunade that itachi can beat hopefully so no need to be upset


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## Almondsand (Feb 28, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> How does itachi counter FTG?


His Kunai skill is second to none, he can intercept and attack Minato's Kunai and redirect them whenever he see fit. Minato will just expose himself.. So what's he going to do now?


New Folder said:


> Tsukuyomi, the answer for everything.


Nah just basic genjutsu is enough. You know that, Minato looked into an inferior sharingan genjutsu user in Obito(who he thought was Madara ) in the eye so him being IC would look in to Itachi's who has a preset sharingan to genjutsu. GG.


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## Rain (Feb 28, 2014)

I love how people assume Minato is using FTG in every single moment in 1v1 fights. No. He only uses FTG when he absolutely needs to dodge some difficult attacks or smash someone with a rasengan.. 

In this matchup, he will use it to dodge Amaterasu and Susano'o. He won't spam the hell out of FTG just to avoid getting caught in Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi, especially without full knowledge.. That'd be totally out of character.

Itachi wins via genjutsu the moment Minato looks at him.


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## Almondsand (Feb 28, 2014)

Minato have no other gameplan. FTG is what he resort to any situation and he does spam it. 

I do agree with your last sentence however I don't think Itachi will even have to resort to it as it would already be set.


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## Trojan (Feb 28, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Nah just basic genjutsu is enough. You know that, Minato looked into an inferior sharingan genjutsu user in Obito(who he thought was Madara ) in the eye so him being IC would look in to Itachi's who has a preset sharingan to genjutsu. GG.



yeah, but he was not put under a genjutsu, so IC Minato will look to itachi's eyes directly without fear because Genjutsu does not effect him. 

unless you can bring a scan where who looked directly to the sharingan and then the genjutsu effect him.


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## Almondsand (Mar 1, 2014)

Didn't I say it was an inferior genjustsu user. When have you ever seen Obito using genjustsu in battle, if you have scan then you should post if not.. Then Itachi is the only one shown that uses genjutsu whenever someone looks him in the eye automatically.


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## Trojan (Mar 1, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Didn't I say it was an inferior genjustsu user. When have you ever seen Obito using genjustsu in battle, if you have scan then you should post if not.. Then Itachi is the only one shown that uses genjutsu whenever someone looks him in the eye automatically.



this inferior genjutsu user is itachi's teacher. He also was able to control Kurama, and Yagura even though Yagura was the 3tails host. 

When I have ever seen him using a genjutsu in a battle? I don't know, maybe here? 
7
or here?
7
or maybe here?
7

- You said Minato looked directly to obito's eyes, and you wanted to prove that he will do the same with itachi. well, too bad, he has never been put under a genjutsu, and a loser like itachi
who's hardly top 20 won't be the first one.


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## Almondsand (Mar 1, 2014)

New Folder said:


> this inferior genjutsu user is itachi's teacher. He also was able to control Kurama, and Yagura even though Yagura was the 3tails host.
> 
> When I have ever seen him using a genjutsu in a battle? I don't know, maybe here?
> 7
> ...



One thing, you absolutely suck at making your argument. You provided pages that does not even go against what I just said. In the Konan fight he used genjutsu off screen after the battle was over and then the Kakashi scan he was going against someone with a sharingan, his sharingan at that. Itachi have shown he doesn't need to be that close to his opponents to use genjutsu. He also don't have tell them they in it, they figure it out when it's too late. His crow summons also put a perimeter of genjutsu. For example:  

Also he has Crow clones that can seal trap someone in a genjutsu as he did with Sasuke and Naruto at two separate locations. He also can disperse genjutsu from other parts of his body, not just his eyes. His regular genjutsu have never been dispelled and he doesn't have to focus to generate one. Itachi so the best at genjutsu bar none and Minato makes the most errors in the manga in life and in battle bar none.

Minato loses just off the fact he is dumb enough to look in Itachi eyes. He uses the same move over and over, Itachi has superior reflexes and his Kunai skills are superior and he can use nature based attack as well as put nature chakra in his weapons... Minato have too many flaws. Itachi solos easily


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 1, 2014)

> Itachi has superior reflexes



Lol, Itachi fans never cease to amaze me with their wank.


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## Almondsand (Mar 1, 2014)

Bee noticed Minato when he got behind him and Bee was a Young'n at the time.

Bee had to be alerted by Itachi when Itachi got behind and he's a grand master now.

Author portrayal my friend, works every time.

Plus Itachi was able to throw punches, dodge, block, trap both Naruto and Bee at the same damn time. Minato never shown any combinations or anything just throw Kunai and warp.. No punches nothing, he did show he can get hit with a combination though once he countered.


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 1, 2014)

New Folder said:


> this inferior genjutsu user is itachi's teacher. He also was able to control Kurama, and Yagura even though Yagura was the 3tails host.
> 
> When I have ever seen him using a genjutsu in a battle? I don't know, maybe here?
> finally started to subside
> ...



To argue minato wouldn't fall to itachis genjutsu is ridiculous everyone falls to his genjutsu and everyone gets owned by it. Minato is no different then naruto, kakashi, orochimaru, deidara, killer bee, SM kabuto (who knew he would get caught and owned by it if he didn't shut his eyes) and definitely doesn't have as much genjutsu skill as sasuke. Once he gets caught GG.


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## Trojan (Mar 1, 2014)

^

lol, I'm sorry itachi's fans you can't be taken seriously, especially at this point. 
I won't waste my time debating with you people, believe in whatever you want.

this ,match is a joke.


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## Fiiction (Mar 1, 2014)

Well according to most of these people, Itachi > SM Minato (Idk how?)
But everyone knows which of the two are stronger in their prime.. 
BM Minato > every form of Itachi.


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## Garcher (Mar 1, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Well according to most of these people, Itachi > SM Minato (Idk how?)
> But everyone knows which of the two are stronger in their prime..



Like you say, everyone knows Itachi is the superior fighter.


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## Fiiction (Mar 1, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol, Itachi fans never cease to amaze me with their wank.



Idk Wtf dude was talking about lol. He probably just said that because itachi has 3t sharingan.
Yeah itachi fans are amusing.


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## Fiiction (Mar 1, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Like you say, everyone knows Itachi is the superior fighter.



Please explain to me how any form of Itachi beats BM Minato?
Tostuka? Not touching him.
Tsukuyomi? Kyuubi wakes him up out of it.
Yata? Giant BM Rasengan. And TBB (Idk if he used a tbb before but it'll be logical for him to be able to)
BM clones with FTG stomps itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 1, 2014)

Sasuke using general battle was able to RAPE and stomp Itachi in CQC combat. 
SM Minato would be significantly faster than Sasuke... so Itachi's reflexes won't be stopping Minato.


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## Rain (Mar 1, 2014)

^ Read the manga.


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## dungsi27 (Mar 1, 2014)

The moment Minato is shown to possess Sage Mode he automatically jumps tiers above Itachi. His base stats are already too much for most to handle,and now they are all greatly enhanced SM.Its different story now.


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## Blaze Release (Mar 1, 2014)

Both sides cannot be taken serious, but that can be said about the battle dome logic overall.
First logic is that apparently because Itachi isn't in this fight, the hokgage's are all stronger than him. What a load of bullshit. For a start if we were to pit the revived hokage's alive, (therefore no km/bm for minato) excluding hashirama agains't the revived kage's, so sandaime raikage, mu and nindanime mizukage i view the revived kage's as superior and if they were to fight will win more times than not. They are more diverse and their individual abilities are just as tricky if not more so to deal with than that of Tobirama, Minato and hiruzen. The latter being obviously the weak link in team hokage. Then we have others like nagato and kabuto who also are not in this battle. The argument agains't itachi not being in this battle because apparently the hokage's are stronger than him is piss poor, because then that logic surely should apply to the other capable shinobi's who also aren't here, unless this rule applies to itachi and him alone. The very idea of edo hiruzen being stronger than itachi or any other of the other capable shinobi's not here alone is a joke.

The second joke is the kage bunshin.  I firmly agree that itachi’s genjutsu is overrated by fans, but at the same time opposing fans degrade it as much as possible. To date the kage bunshin genjutsu counter has been attributed to kakashi and him alone, arguably the greatest bunshin feinter in the series. The main forms of ocular genjutsu counter that has been stated to be used my most opponents is not looking at the sharingan’s users eye, kakashi telling asuma/kurenai this. Gai reaching the same conclusion, but his method goes further, by looking at their feat and trying to predict their next move. Onoki a kage came up with the same strategy regardless of him being a bunshin user agains’t madara and warned the alliance and the kage’s. Chiyo stated another strategy which was the 2 vs 1. I am positive that all those that have faced the uchiha in the past would have had some form of bunshin usage especially if even kiba can use the kage bunshin, yet the majority opted to not looking at the eyes at all.
Another reason kakashi used the kage bunshin genjutsu strategy is because Naruto was there. He acknowledged him as a team member. The kage bunshin strategy isn’t a fool proof strategy if you are splitting your chakra just to counter one aspect of a shinobi’s arsenal. If Naruto or chiyo/sakura wasn’t there I doubt kakashi would have used a kage bunshin genjutsu strategy, it is too risky for his reserves. More importantly, kakashi being arguable the best bunshin user managed to pull that feat off as he took advantage of itachi’s katon and the used a doton to conceal the original and brought forward the bunshin. Minato might be a bunshin user, but we have barely seen him use a bunshin to the effect of kakasi’s level so how people can claim he will not only reach the same conclusion as kakashi in terms of genjutsu strategy but also replicate the same bunshin feat is amazing. On top of all this, just like kakashi who claimed the same moves do not work on him,  the same can be said about itachi who is equally if not more intelligent than kakashi. He did not only take note of the strategy seconds after it happened 4. He appears to have rectified this as he managed to dispel naruto’s clones and get the original in a genjutsu. Minato will most likely create a bunshin right infront of itachi, instead of trying to conceal it like kakashi did. If that happens, itachi will obviously take note of the clone created right before his eyes and not go out spamming genjutsu.
It’s amusing when itachi is pitted agains’t a shinobi that uses some form of bunshin and every single one that walks the face of the earth will not only come to same genjutsu strategy as kakashi, but will also successfully pull out of their rectum the same feat and fool itachi, twice with the same strategy.


Sensing is a nice ability to have, but people have exaggerated sensing and just how much it helps agains’t genjutsu to new heights, forgetting that genjutsu has overcome, many sensors in the series, examples being sm kabuto, fu, torune, zetsu. Secondly sensing is not a passive ability, we have seen that sensors have to go into sensory mode. 
A couple of years ago this same exaggeration happened with hyuuga fans and how they milked to the fullest the byakugan’s ability to see chakra therefore apparently they will come up with a counter/defence even before their opponent uses the technique as they will see their chakra network and what not. The same game can be played with the other sharingan’s abilities. But anyway, sensing isn’t as anti genjutsu as people claim. For starters, even if we exclude the strongest genjutsu’s like tsukuyomi, gamarinsho, etc. The basic paralysis genjutsu will overcome a sensor, simple because its power is in paralysis and not deception and to date all paralysis genjutsu, its been made blatantly obvious without needing a doujutsu or any form of sensing that you are in a genjutsu. So sensing isn’t helping you here. Likewise image deception genjutsu, while sensing helps, it only helps when the victim has gained a hunch that they might be in a genjutsu, then to verify this will try and sense, if that is the case, they then proceed to dispel it. But if a sensor doesn’t gain this hunch or should I say the genjutsu user creates the perfect picture, not even sensing would help as the victim would not have the hunch that is needed to then proceed to sense and gain verification whether they are indeed in an illusion or not.

Speed. People have gained the idea that minato constantly is teleporting non-stop. But we all know that isn’t true. Secondly while I agree that speed does make life hard for use genjutsu, we have also seen that itachi’s genjutsu execution requires no time at all as he used it agains’t sasuke even before sasuke reached him at the hideout, but also agains’t bee in the midst of battle. 
4
Taka vs Killer Bee
Which brings me to another topic concerning what madara did to EI. Many claim he had to hold EI down in order to execute the illusion as EI is too fast. That is one way of translating it. The other way is that sharingan based illusion are short range. Therefore he had to close the gap and bring EI within range to order to invoke the illusion and if infact you look closely it appears madara is leaning forward to further come within range . 4
While i do get the argument that he needed to restrict EI as in v2 his speed is creates a form of visual based counter, i believe what madara did was to get him within range of the illusion more than anything.

Saying all this, lets not get it twisted. While I disagree with some of the points made in this thread I agree with the overall conclusion that Minato is not only stronger than him, he will beat him, even if we limit km/bm to his edo state, he has now gained sm. Up till now I was iffy about him summoing shima and fukasaku but once it was revealed he is a sage, (asspull yes but what isn’t in this manga) it made life extremely difficult and while I do not believe in fanmade ties puts alive sm minato in the same tier as sm kabuto and nagato both of whom I rate as superior to itachi. Minato not only gain’s unlimited sm, he gains the collaboration techniques and wisdom of the two sage’s. He can also teleport others with his chakra touching and having the two sage’s teleporting is insane and rigged AF. 
Only way I can see Itachi gaining ground is through the legendary weapons, or another ocular techniques or general technique that sasuke will show and will be linked to itachi. But until then, Itachi isn’t winning this fight even if we pit him agains’t alive sm minato


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 1, 2014)

Rain said:


> ^ Read the manga.



The manga shows a Susano-less Itachi getting raped by Sasuke, hence it was cited.


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## Almondsand (Mar 2, 2014)

I bet if someone interviews kishimoto and asked him who will win.. He will smacked the shit out of them and say " You stupid friend, Itachi of course, why would I make him the best at deducing techniques, using deception an still give him techniques that are absolute trump cards? Then make him die off so I won't have to asspull some bs to defeating him. Why the fuck will I go through all that god damn effort of having characters calling him invincible, able to figure out every weakness, and giving a hokage level wisdom at 7? It's a no fucking brainer technique and execution always beat brawn especially when you have comparable brawn"


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## Tengu (Mar 5, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Minato's sage mode was confirmed to be weak, what say you now?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 5, 2014)

Good thing base minato does not need SM to take this(imo).

Buuuuut i expect minahaters/itachi lovers to add a extra 7 pages to this with disrespect and unnecessary comments.


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## Garcher (Mar 5, 2014)

Minato never used SM in a fight because it is too weak. 

Itachi>Minato. Get over it.


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## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

Even a weak, short Sage Mode would give Minato an edge considering the consensus was they were roughly equal in Base. Also, since Minato doesn't take on toad-like features, he's still a more complete Sage than Jiraiya.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 5, 2014)

Oh snap.

Short lived glory came to an abrupt end


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## Alex Payne (Mar 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Even a weak, short Sage Mode would give Minato an edge considering the consensus was they were roughly equal in Base. Also, since Minato doesn't take on toad-like features, he's still a more complete Sage than Jiraiya.


Minato himself admitted that he doesn't use SM in combat. Only when his opponent is completely immune to anything bar Senjutsu and top-tier taijutsu he tried to use it. He won't be trying to use it against Itachi imo. Especially if his SM is indeed very brief and requires prolonged period of time to charge. The cons outweigh the pros.


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## lathia (Mar 5, 2014)

You can relax your sphincters, Itachi fans . Not too lose though, Minato still has an advantage available.


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## Kai (Mar 5, 2014)

Minato has as much chance at resorting to using senjutsu as Itachi does at resorting to Izanami. Impractical, out of character techniques that aren't going to be used in the fight against each other.

If Minato didn't believe his use of senjutsu was on a level to even contribute alongside Naruto against JJ Obito, why would he ever use it against someone other than JJ Madara? 

Interesting he is also mentioned repeatedly to be "using senjutsu" instead of the official "Sage Mode.".


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 5, 2014)

New Folder said:


> ^
> 
> lol, I'm sorry itachi's fans you can't be taken seriously, especially at this point.
> I won't waste my time debating with you people, believe in whatever you want.
> ...



Your a minato fanboy you think minato can't be put into genjutsu when every single character itachi wants to put in genjutsu has been put in genjutsu.
I'm a fan of both I see this match ending in a tie


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## Garcher (Mar 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The manga shows a Susano-less Itachi getting raped by Sasuke, hence it was cited.



Did we read the same manga? Or is your reading comprehension really on the level of a 5 year old and you didn't get that Itachi WANTED to loose at their only real battle?


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## Almondsand (Mar 5, 2014)

Minato doesn't do anything smart with his SM anyhow so it was no way he was touching Itachi.. Itachi is much faster than him and can destroy his Kunai with his Nature infused Shuriken. He can also deflect his kunai to any spot he want by using his own kunai while at the same producing clones. Minato sucks... IC he is not even going to survive long enough against Itachi.


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## Almondsand (Mar 5, 2014)

You guys need to stop listening to Nikushimi and some of the things Grimmjowsensei say, they don't really know what they are talking about. Technique and execution always beat great power and Itachi is bar none the best at it.


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## ueharakk (Mar 5, 2014)

nothing changes.  Senjutsu didn't offer Minato's arsenal a major boost anyways.  Itachi still never hits him, and minato or a clone end up warping susanoo and away or blitzing the real itachi or itachi kills himself from being forced to hold up susanoo in fear of getting FTG blitzed.


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## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

Kai said:


> Minato has as much chance at resorting to using senjutsu as Itachi does at resorting to Izanami. Impractical, out of character techniques that aren't going to be used in the fight against each other.




....that's actually a really good comparison.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ....that's actually a really good comparison.


Its funny when you think that SM was Minato's new trumpcard agains Itachi last week 

But seriously, thats a good comparison. If you ignore the fact  that one of them got the job done and the other, well, was utterly useless


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## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its funny when you think that SM was Minato's new trumpcard agains Itachi last week
> 
> But seriously, thats a good comparison. If you ignore the fact  that one of them got the job done and the other, well, was utterly useless




I would love to see Itachi and EMS Sauce attempt Izanami on Jubidara.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 5, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Did we read the same manga? Or is your reading comprehension really on the level of a 5 year old and you didn't get that* Itachi WANTED to loose at their only real battle?*


Just to help a brother out: 

*Spoiler*: __ 









Also, Itachi wins this fight. Its funny how everyone thought that Minatos SM was the magical trumpcard to this debate and yet look at where we are now. Itachi wins this match like he always has and any Minato fanboy/lady can simply deal with it! 

[*MASSIVE SPOILER*]

*Spoiler*: __ 









Hirashin won't be too effective against someone that is *the best with shuriken *and has no problem deflecting them in an instant. This is a bad match up for Minato, not Itachi. Seriously, I'd love to see someone whose entire arsenal is based on throwing a kunai go up with the master of them. 

Itachi with his eyes closed would end that strategy: 
*Spoiler*: __


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## Trojan (Mar 5, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> Your a minato fanboy you think minato can't be put into genjutsu when every single character itachi wants to put in genjutsu has been put in genjutsu.
> I'm a fan of both I see this match ending in a tie



Minato is not only MUCH faster than itachi and everyone itachi has ever fought against, but he is also a sensor and can easily sense the chakra and if itachi is building his chakra up inside of his eyes. Not only that, but he also can use his clones jutsu which can't be effected by the Genjutsu.

itachi is not on the same level as Minato, that has been made clear. It's just his fans can't get over it. U_U
itachi as stated in the manga is inferior to Jiraiya, who admitted Minato's superiority as well. U_U

anyway, Minato is still around, I want to say that I hope he will get something, but with how kishi handle him I doubt that very highly. lol


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 5, 2014)

So useless Senjutsu vs useless Izanami? 



Aikuro said:


> Did we read the same manga? Or is your reading comprehension really on the level of a 5 year old and you didn't get that Itachi WANTED to loose at their only real battle?



You're probably thinking of another manga altogether. The actual manga has Itachi only holding back Susanoo... with a sickness that made him slightly slower and cough some blood.

So base Minato could probably stomp base Itachi.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 5, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Minato is not only MUCH faster than itachi and *everyone itachi has ever fought against*


*everyone itachi has ever fought against*
*everyone itachi has ever fought against*

I guess in the manga your reading this fight never took place 

*Spoiler*: __ 













Itachi was able to blitz Killer B just the same as Minato except he did it with skill, not Hirashin


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 5, 2014)

People think itachi is actually faster than minato? 
Oh jeez


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 5, 2014)

People think Hirashin is foot speed


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 5, 2014)

Tobirama(the fastest shinobi of his time) admitted to be inferior to minato when it comes to *shunshin*(not ftg) when he arrived after minato on the battlefield. Let me guess itachi eclipse tobirama in speed now?

That's enough dude go home


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I would love to see Itachi and EMS Sauce attempt Izanami on Jubidara.



Why do you think Itachi is gone ? 

Coz Kishimoto doesn't manga to end just yet !


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## Veracity (Mar 5, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Tobirama(the fastest shinobi of his time) admitted to be inferior to minato when it comes to *shunshin*(not ftg) when he arrived after minato on the battlefield. Let me guess itachi eclipse tobirama in speed now?
> 
> That's enough dude go home



Tobirama meant FTG. Shunshin Justu sometimes means FTG. It's actually translated to teleportation in the viz edition. Which sense because tobirama sports a shunshin that's faster then KCM Minato's arm speed.


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## Trojan (Mar 5, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> *everyone itachi has ever fought against*
> *everyone itachi has ever fought against*
> 
> I guess in the manga your reading this fight never took place
> ...



and your point is? 
FTG is Minato's jutsu, he has all the right to use it whenever, and however he wants. 

Also, you took that part from my post as if B is faster than Minato, which is .... not very smart, as it does not matter if itachi did it or not because B is slower than Minato. Not to mention Minato did not want to kill B anyways.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 5, 2014)

New Folder said:


> and your point is?
> FTG is Minato's jutsu, he has all the right to use it whenever, and however he wants.
> 
> Also, you took that part from my post as if B is faster than Minato, which is .... not very smart, as it does not matter if itachi did it or not because B is slower than Minato. Not to mention Minato did not want to kill B anyways.


Actually I was referring to Naruto, not Killer B. I was simply trying to say that Itachi fought Naruto who is comparable if not greater than Minato in the state he was in. As far as FTG goes, idc. I just find it to be one of the greatest hax in the Naruto series lol.


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## Almondsand (Mar 6, 2014)

FTG may be a great hack but Itachi has the greatest skill with shuriken and not only that but he has nature infused chakra and can implement it to his shuriken. It's no way FTG will even work on Itachi when it's medium is projectiles. 

Also many argue Minato have greater reflexes but he stalemated against Killer Bi, Itachi warned Killer Bi and still dodged his attack while weaving jutsu signs for a katon while throwing shuriken.. I mean damn. 

Minato have not shown the ability to go against two top speed ninja at the same time going hand to hand, making one of them go "ugh" and dodging an attack at the same time. 

Minato also haven't shown any defense to genjutsu, you guys only argument is that he is a top tier ninja but we seen a top tier ninja who actually was about to be chosen as Hokage over him(because of his genius but he was found to be evil) and have shown genjutsu feats being taken out with a simple genjutsu reversal from Itachi.. and then disarmed literally. So the manga is going against perception of this forum where Minato is superior to Itachi and in fact shows that is actually inferior in every facet. Itachi is a strategist, he is not a reactionary fighter, he deduces his opponents quickly, not move with assumptions. Timing and execution always wins, which is why he always wins. We didn't even get into it with his feints and crows.


We didn't even get to his MS..


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## Trojan (Mar 6, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> Actually I was referring to Naruto, not Killer B. I was simply trying to say that Itachi fought Naruto who is comparable if not greater than Minato in the state he was in. As far as FTG goes, idc. I just find it to be one of the greatest hax in the Naruto series lol.



and? 
When did Naruto use his speed against itachi exactly?


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## Fiiction (Mar 6, 2014)

Itachi is a great ninja, but I can't see him beating minato. And any susanoo under PS is overrated especially yata.


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## Almondsand (Mar 6, 2014)

Haraishin is over-rated. Minato can not use nature chakra. He loses.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 6, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Itachi is a great ninja, but I can't see him beating minato. And any susanoo under PS is overrated especially yata.


That's fine... I'm not sure when it was implied that Itachi needs susano'o to win. Yata might be "overrated" in your opinion but its not like Itachi needs it against someone who can't use chakra natures anyways :lmfao


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## Bonly (Mar 6, 2014)

Welp after the last chapter it's basically back to Base Minato vs Itachi. Itachi would put up a good fight fort a while but Minato would eventually finish him off.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 6, 2014)

I don't see how hard it is to realize that Hirashin won't be effective against Itachi. Minato doesn't win this fight as his attacks center around throwing kunai at his enemy and teleporting to those kunai to surprise and catch an opponent off-guard. Facing almost anyone except for Itachi that would be a great strategy but as I mention and proved before in a previous post, Itachi would simply deflect those kunai and even use them to his advantage after analyzing the jutsu completely. 

This is not to say that Minato doesn't stand a chance but considering that Itachi reacted to lightning @ a quoted 1/1000 of a second I don't find it suitable to say that Minato will be catching him by surprise anyways. 

Also, can someone please provide concrete evidence that Minato would even be able to transport Itachi's susano'o? I'm not saying he needs it to win this fight but I've always been curious as to why people say that's possible.


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## Kyu (Mar 6, 2014)

Full Susano'o is a hindrance to Itachi when facing Minato. Camping out behind a technique that constantly drains chakra and attempting to hit a guy who can shunshin across Konoha in a relatively short period of time isn't exactly the smartest course of action. 

Against this type of opponent, it's a waste of chakra not unlike Amaterasu.

Like usual, Tsukiyomi is what decides this fight. Both have a 50/50 shot if Itachi lacks any health issues.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 6, 2014)

Not sure if you were attempting to answer my question or not...


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## Kyu (Mar 6, 2014)

> Not sure if you were attempting to answer my question or not...



No I wasn't. The fascination with the idea of Minato warping Itachi's Susano'o(assuming he wants to put himself at a disadvantage) to another location baffles me as well.

Might in fact be possible but meh....


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## ueharakk (Mar 6, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Full Susano'o is a hindrance to Itachi when facing Minato. Camping out behind a technique that constantly drains chakra and attempting to hit a guy who can shunshin across Konoha in a relatively short period of time isn't exactly the smartest course of action.
> 
> Against this type of opponent, it's a waste of chakra not unlike Amaterasu.
> 
> Like usual, Tsukiyomi is what decides this fight. Both have a 50/50 shot if Itachi lacks any health issues.



how does tsukuyomi decide the fight?  I mean, sure if he hits minato with it, minato's a gonner, but have you ever looked at the requirements needed to get someone with that technique if they actually have basic knowledge on the sharingan?

@N4GAmbush

how does deflecting minato's kunai shut him down?  Does minato all of a sudden lose the ability to warp to a kunai or pick it up after it's deflected?  Also, you can't just arbitrarily say "Itachi will analyze Minato's FTG and use it against him", you have to specify how.  Finally, how does itachi even win this fight?  He can't hit minato, all of his big moves hurt him a lot, and he's not going to be able to fight minato without being protected by susanoo unless he wants to end up like obito or Ei (if bee wasn't there).


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> @N4GAmbush
> 
> how does deflecting minato's kunai shut him down?  Does minato all of a sudden lose the ability to warp to a kunai or pick it up after it's deflected?  Also, you can't just arbitrarily say "Itachi will analyze Minato's FTG and use it against him", you have to specify how.  Finally, how does itachi even win this fight?  He can't hit minato, all of his big moves hurt him a lot, and he's not going to be able to fight minato without being protected by susanoo unless he wants to end up like obito or Ei (if bee wasn't there).


I've been waiting for a debate....

Here's the thing. Throwing a kunai at a guy who can simply stop it mid-flight isn't going to gain Minato much ground. Will he advance? Yes, however insignificantly. Now, considering that Itachi has the sharingan he will be able to follow Minato's movements quite easily. You may bring up an argument that Obito had the sharingan and got destroyed by Minato and I will gladly agree, however, I'd like you to also keep in mind that Obito was 14 at the time and he wasn't even a skilled ninja to begin with, unlike Itachi who was top of his class. With all of this factored in, hirashin won't be as effective on Itachi as it is against most other opponents and we've already seen perfect examples of how easily the sharingan counters Hirashin with Minato and Tobirama respectively. 

Now, although Minato can simply teleport as soon as he's about to get hit I think it's reasonable to give him a little more credit than that. Will he use Hirashin? Undoubtedly, however he's not gonna run away like a coward every time he's about to get hit... that's simply out of character for him.

To continue, I say that Itachi would analyse Minato's jutsu and use it against him for a variety of reasons, all of which being relevant. Number one, Itachi has displayed on multiple occasions his keen eye for reading people and/or jutsu's. A couple of examples being when he calmly analysed and found the weakness of Chibaku tensai when both Naruto and Killer B believed it was inescapable and when he fought Kabuto who admitted: 
*Spoiler*: __ 









Finally I come to this prime example right here. Look through it first and I'll explain throughout why I find this to be a sufficient example to back up my argument. Check it out:


*Spoiler*: __ 





In this scan Itachi is *blitzing* Killer B. I'm not sure if your one of the people to take offense to that but when someone goes from 20m in front of you to directly behind you before you can intercept them, to me that's a blitz. 


Now, in this scan Itachi is not only moving out of the range of Killer B's attack but also waiting for him to finish the attack so that he can successfully counter with his katon shuriken. This, at one point, I overlooked myself but when you think about it his strategy there was brilliant. Instead of simply letting his shuriken get blocked and absorbed by samehada he deliberately countered during a state at which Killer B couldn't efficiently counter the attack until... : 

He was forced to use Gyuki in order to not get hit. 



Quite simply, I'd be surprised if Itachi didn't take advantage of Hirashin once he completely analyzed it. He would be able to predict where Minato would teleport and due to the fact that the seals contain Minato's chakra he wouldn't have a hard time seeing their location either.

Further expanding my point, Itachi isn't one to easily be caught off guard. His reflexes are most likely equal to if not above Minato's as he was able to react to this. *A jutsu traveling at the speed of 1/1000x the speed of sound* 

Itachi has a large collection of jutsu via the sharingan whereas Minato has none. Itachi has better taijutsu feats than Minato as well. Genjutsu wise, Itachi trumps and Minato has no counter. Saying that he has knowledge of the sharingan is negligible as #1 Tsukuyomi may/may not be reserved for all members of the Uchiha and #2 Minato most likely didn't have much battle experience with a clan that exists within the village he was in charge of running. Obito, the only Uchiha he is confirmed to be associated with, unlocked only his third tomoe before his "death" and Kakashi who gained the other eye doesn't have Tsukuyomi anyways. Not only that but there are many genjutsu's that would be effective against Minato besides Tsukuyomi. One such example is Ephemeral. Due to the fact that Itachi knows about Naruto, he could torture him with this jutsu causing a collapse of Minato's psyche. Please consider as well that Itachi has Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu which was seen effectively paralyzing Orochimaru for a short time. Combined with amaterasu, Itachi would easily be able to win the fight with just that, however its debatable as to if Itachi would actually kill such a valuable opponent in that manner.

As far as susano'o goes, Itachi doesn't need it.


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## Kyu (Mar 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> how does tsukuyomi decide the fight?





> I mean, sure if he hits minato with it, minato's a gonner,



Exacto.



ueharakk said:


> but have you ever looked at the requirements needed to get someone with that technique if they actually have basic knowledge on the sharingan?




Tsukiyomi is an MS tech, I highly doubt it's 'basic knowledge'(feel free to correct me on this as my knowledge on the MS' notoriety can be a bit hazy from time to time). Anyway, Minato has looked in a Sharingan user's eyes before. I'm not saying he'll without a doubt nail Minato w/ Tsukiyomi(far from it) but it is Itachi's most favorable option. If it hits Minato gets fucking KO'd, if not Itachi eventually gets worn out and BAMFlashed.



> Genjutsu wise, Itachi trumps and Minato has no counter.



Regular genjutsu isn't putting Minato down as I find it hard to believe a Hokage who was praised & revered for his intellect, wouldn't know how to break the more basic illusions. At best they'll serve as a distraction while Itachi tries to catch the Yondaime Hokage off guard.

Before Minato displayed Kage Bunshin, I'd have said Itachi catching him with a clone feint is within the realm of possibilities but currently that advantage has been nullified to some extent. 



> As far as susano'o goes, Itachi doesn't need it.



You say this as if it'd be an asset in this fight.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 6, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Regular genjutsu isn't putting Minato down as I find it hard to believe a Hokage who was praised & revered for his intellect, wouldn't know how to break the more basic illusions. At best they'll serve as a distraction while Itachi tries to catch the Yondaime Hokage off guard.


1 thing 2 say... Orochimaru.


> You say this as if it'd be an asset in this fight.


That's because I'm not one of the people that are convinced Minato could benefit from teleporting his susano'o away via hirashin. Chakra is constantly moving through susano'o so it would just reform in my opinion.


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## ueharakk (Mar 6, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> I've been waiting for a debate....
> 
> Here's the thing. Throwing a kunai at a guy who can simply stop it mid-flight isn't going to gain Minato much ground. Will he advance? Yes, however insignificantly.


But, even if itachi can somehow deflect all of minato's kunai, minato can simply pick them up and throw them again.  On the other hand itachi can't do the same with his weapons since that would require him to get close to minato's deflected kunais.  

In addition to that, kunais can be delivered by clones, can be warped and then spam thrown, minato can just touch areas of he map which means itachi gets blitzed if he gets near those areas.  



N4GAmbush said:


> Now, considering that Itachi has the sharingan he will be able to follow Minato's movements quite easily. You may bring up an argument that Obito had the sharingan and got destroyed by Minato and I will gladly agree, however, I'd like you to also keep in mind that Obito was 14 at the time and he wasn't even a skilled ninja to begin with, unlike Itachi who was top of his class. With all of this factored in, hirashin won't be as effective on Itachi as it is against most other opponents and we've already seen perfect examples of how easily the sharingan counters Hirashin with Minato and Tobirama respectively.


Obito had the MS, zetsu suit and hashirama's cells.  If Itachi did have a significant skill advantage over that obito, it's got nothing to do with their perception via sharingan.  

Who countered minato's hirashin?  Juubito and Juubidara.  Who countered Tobirama's admittedly slower hirashin?  One eyed, living rinnegan madara w/ sennnin mode.  Has anything in the manga ever implied that Itachi has the reactions and perception on par with those kinds of opponents?  Obviously not.  So no, it does not follow that itachi counters let alone easily counters hirashin.



N4GAmbush said:


> Now, although Minato can simply teleport as soon as he's about to get hit I think it's reasonable to give him a little more credit than that. Will he use Hirashin? Undoubtedly, however he's not gonna run away like a coward every time he's about to get hit... that's simply out of character for him.


Um, it depends on what kind of hit.  If its just a punch, or something he can take and potentially launch a counterattack, sure.  If it's something that will inflict heavy damage/be a lethal strike on him, obviously he's going to dodge with Hirashin, and there's nothing out of character about that especially considering the circumstances of the times when edo minato was actually hit.



N4GAmbush said:


> To continue, I say that Itachi would analyse Minato's jutsu and use it against him for a variety of reasons, all of which being relevant. Number one, Itachi has displayed on multiple occasions his keen eye for reading people and/or jutsu's. A couple of examples being when he calmly analysed and found the weakness of Chibaku tensai when both Naruto and Killer B believed it was inescapable and when he fought Kabuto who admitted:
> *Spoiler*: __


That simply shows itachi is very analytical.  That doesn't mean that itachi analyzes all jutsus, or that he can use any jutsu against the whoever's using it.  By that logic, itachi solos Juubito, the Juubi, Madara, and RS because he magically will analyze their jutsu and use it against them without reason or  explanation other than itachi is very analytic.



N4GAmbush said:


> Finally I come to this prime example right here. Look through it first and I'll explain throughout why I find this to be a sufficient example to back up my argument. Check it out:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 







N4GAmbush said:


> Now, in this scan Itachi is not only moving out of the range of Killer B's attack but also waiting for him to finish the attack so that he can successfully counter with his katon shuriken. This, at one point, I overlooked myself but when you think about it his strategy there was brilliant. Instead of simply letting his shuriken get blocked and absorbed by samehada he deliberately countered during a state at which Killer B couldn't efficiently counter the attack until... :
> 
> He was forced to use Gyuki in order to not get hit.








N4GAmbush said:


> Quite simply, I'd be surprised if Itachi didn't take advantage of Hirashin once he completely analyzed it. He would be able to predict where Minato would teleport and due to the fact that the seals contain Minato's chakra he wouldn't have a hard time seeing their location either.


From what i've seen a blitz is hitting someone before they can physically react.  Simply getting behind someone isn't blitzing them because there are tons of ways people can get behind another without being noticed.  Bee wasn't even facing off against itachi, nagato summoned the two giants, itachi used that as a distraction to get behind bee.  Had it just have been 1 vs 1 itachi vs bee, itachi never gets in that position which is why we never see itachi legitimately doing that against bee when they engage each other after that.

Killer bee didn't use samehada to block the shuriken because samehada had just complained about absorbing katons.  And again, you jump from itachi being an intelligent character to him magically being able to know where Minato will jump and having the physical capabilities to counter that jump.  Where do you get this from?  



N4GAmbush said:


> Further expanding my point, Itachi isn't one to easily be caught off guard. His reflexes are most likely equal to if not above Minato's as he was able to react to this. *A jutsu traveling at the speed of 1/1000x the speed of sound*


Yet he couldn't react to muki tensei or SM Kabuto's blitz.... which means he either put susanoo up while sasuke gave his long speech about what he was exactly about to do, or kabuto and muki tensei are faster than that.  Finally, who's to say minato couldn't have reacted as well?  We aren't given a timeframe that tests the reactions of minato or other ninja, so why can't they mentally react to lightning if put in itachi's position?  



N4GAmbush said:


> Itachi has a large collection of jutsu via the sharingan whereas Minato has none. Itachi has better taijutsu feats than Minato as well. Genjutsu wise, Itachi trumps and Minato has no counter. Saying that he has knowledge of the sharingan is negligible as #1 Tsukuyomi may/may not be reserved for all members of the Uchiha and #2 Minato most likely didn't have much battle experience with a clan that exists within the village he was in charge of running. *Obito, the only Uchiha he is confirmed to be associated with, unlocked only his third tomoe before his "death" and Kakashi who gained the other eye doesn't have Tsukuyomi anyways.*


All of that is pure resume, and irrelevant to the fight.  Hiruzen can have thousands of more jutsus than Hashirama, yet does that mean anything?  When did Minato show inferiority in taijutsu to itachi?  Sure Itachi is better at genjutsu, but what use is genjutsu if you can't get minato into one?

Minato is a hokage therefore it's a ridiculously conservative assertion to say he has general knowledge on the sharingan which is.... don't look directly at it.  Thus, regardless if he knows about tsukuyomi or not, he's fighting with the same mentality as one who does know itachi has tsukuyomi.

Next, the bolded is flat out false Obito unlocked his MS before his death, and considering Madara taught Obito everything he knew before Obito attacked konoha, Minato showed that he knows the general rules of fighting a sharingan user (which really shouldn't even need defending considering he's hokage).



N4GAmbush said:


> Not only that but there are many genjutsu's that would be effective against Minato besides Tsukuyomi. One such example is Ephemeral. Due to the fact that Itachi knows about Naruto, he could torture him with this jutsu causing a collapse of Minato's psyche. Please consider as well that Itachi has Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu which was seen effectively paralyzing Orochimaru for a short time. Combined with amaterasu, Itachi would easily be able to win the fight with just that, however its debatable as to if Itachi would actually kill such a valuable opponent in that manner.


Um, that all requires Itachi to actually catch minato in a genjutsu, which never happens considering every time itachi has ever caught someone in sharingan genjutsu, they either were had no knowledge about the sharingan and how potent its genjutsu is or just didn't care about being put in a genjutsu which obviously doesn't apply to minato.  What would give you a lower limit of what it would take to catch minato in a genjutsu is what madara had to do to get the much slower Ei in one, and that's power and time that itachi doesn't have.



N4GAmbush said:


> As far as susano'o goes, Itachi doesn't need it.


Sure because the result would be the same with or without susanoo: itachi ends up getting blitzed. 

Look you haven't listed any way itachi actually hits minato.  You've basically just said 'because itachi is very smart, he will trick minato, figure out FTG and use FTG against minato' and then you presuppose that itachi gets minato into a sharingan genjutsu.  By that logic, itachi beats anyone in every fictional universe since you aren't comparing itachi's abilities to those of the opponents, you are simply saying 'he's smart, he'll find out a way to win, therefore he wins'.  You can swap minato out with galactus, superman prime, goku, tenshi, doesn't matter, itachi is smart, therefore he wins despite any comparison of their abilities.  

So again, i ask you how does itachi even hit minato?  Lets pretend that itachi does deflect all the kunais so that none are by him.  Now what?  Minato just gathers them up and throws them again, itachi can't get near him since he'll be near the kunais.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 6, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Tsukiyomi is an MS tech, I highly doubt it's 'basic knowledge'(feel free to correct me on this as my knowledge on the MS' notoriety can be a bit hazy from time to time). Anyway, Minato has looked in a Sharingan user's eyes before. I'm not saying he'll without a doubt nail Minato w/ Tsukiyomi(far from it) but it is Itachi's most favorable option. If it hits Minato gets fucking KO'd, if not Itachi eventually gets worn out and BAMFlashed.


At this level, I think it's assumed that the combatant will avoid eye contact with the sharingan user.  That's why despite Ei commenting on Sasuke's eyes and seeming to look directly at him, he never gets put into a sharingan genjutsu until he's physically forced into one.  Kishi doesn't have to consistently draw panels of the fighters averting their eyes, it's just logically assumed as it's explained as the basics for fighting a sharingan user at the very beginning of part 2.  That's also why when people have knowledge and try to avoid eye contact, a distraction is pretty much always required to get them into the genjutsu.   

This isn't special pleading, all kinds of stuff like naruto needing clones to make rasengans, jutsus seemingly not requiring handseals, shinobi's feet don't visibly produce chakra when they walk on water, are in this category as well: Kishi explains it earlier, it doesn't need to be shown every time.


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 7, 2014)

Are ppl really arguing Itachi is going to redirect Minato's kunais? Based off what? Being able to redirect his OWN kunais (which any ninja worth their salt can do)? Smdh.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2014)

The Format said:


> Are ppl really arguing Itachi is going to redirect Minato's kunais? Based off what? Being able to redirect his OWN kunais (which any ninja worth their salt can do)? Smdh.



Superior kunai skills ?


----------



## Vice (Mar 7, 2014)

This chapter changed nothing. Minato was already stronger than Itachi, no matter how weak his Sage Mode is, it's still that much stronger than Stutachi.


----------



## Almondsand (Mar 7, 2014)

The thing I find interesting is how people are saying Minato will just warp away because he can see Itachi's moves but says Itachi can not see Minato's moves despite him having the sharingan.

Minato isn't a smart fighter at all, people keep trying to downplay what Itachi did to Orochimaru a ninja who actually was suppose to be chosen as Hokage over Minato due to being a much better genius was denied because of his evil experiments and goals. He has shown to use genjutsu and have feats of other versatile jutsu yet was caught in an Itachi illusion without even looking at his eyes(all this means Minato will not be caught.. gtfoh). No one have shown to be even close to Itachi's skill in genjutsu in the whole entire manga. Minato will be caught and Itachi if he wants will strike so fast.. Your dead or he will show mercy like he always does to Konoha ninja no matter the crime (only cutting Orochimaru arm off)

Also Minato Kunai/Seal technique is not hard to figure out at all, it's not a rare jutsu or something randomly determined like MS. Actually the funny thing is Itachi is well versed in seals, as he is able to transfer power and techniques to actual human beings, and he can do it through genjutsu or by a touch of his finger, unlike people who have to use scrolls. It's too funny how you guys try to act like Minato who only shows one technique all the time, and is going against someone who is arguably the most insightful character in the manga, is going to be hard to figure out.

Itachi deduced a lot of techniques much more complicated than a projectile with a space/time seal on it. His skill in Kunai indefinitely nullify it and people saying Minato can transfer and throw it again, but guess what Itachi can throw another kunai and it will bad from there because now he knows FTG v2 and will counter that which means death. Minato also doesn't have natura chakra, and it's already basic rules in the manga a weapon infused with nature chakra is much stronger than one with out. He will basically destroy all of his kunai.. then what?


----------



## Almondsand (Oct 2, 2014)

LOL @ people saying Minatfail beats Itachi. Itachi will genjutsu him with a genin level illusion then cut his arms off.


----------



## JuicyG (Oct 2, 2014)

Lmao

Minato > Itachi

It has been implied as such for years now


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## Sadgoob (Oct 2, 2014)

I can't see Minato beating Itachi without the Fox.​


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## Almondsand (Oct 4, 2014)

Minatfail was crap... The only thing he was good for is commentating on what everyone else did in the fight against the ten tails.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Oct 4, 2014)

Itachi with EASE. Genjutsu stomps. How are you going to restrict Biju Mode? There's no way he'll beat Itachi lol

If he meets Itachi's gaze he's done. You're not just going to look at his feet as if you're Gai. Do that and you'll get hit with Amaterasu. Then, there's also Kotoamatsukami. To make it a bit more fair I'd recommend restricting Genjutsu. Itachi wins, undoubtedly.


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## Almondsand (Oct 5, 2014)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> Itachi with EASE. Genjutsu stomps. How are you going to restrict Biju Mode? There's no way he'll beat Itachi lol
> 
> If he meets Itachi's gaze he's done. You're not just going to look at his feet as if you're Gai. Do that and you'll get hit with Amaterasu. Then, there's also Kotoamatsukami. To make it a bit more fair I'd recommend restricting Genjutsu. Itachi wins, undoubtedly.



Absolutely correct. 

I said the same thing. Everyone underestimates genjutsu, especially when it comes to the only genjutsu-oriented powerful character that never showed his full strength.


----------



## Ashi (Oct 5, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Absolutely correct.
> 
> I said the same thing. Everyone underestimates genjutsu, especially when it comes to the only genjutsu-oriented powerful character that never showed his full strength.




Lolgenjutsu isn't doing anything to Minato before He marks Itachi's ass


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 5, 2014)

The Genjutsu wank is terrible.


----------



## kingcools (Oct 5, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> How does Minato deal with Genjutsu?



he teleports out of it /kamui


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 5, 2014)

lathia said:


> Base Minato was already a tier above Itachi. Giving him SM is rape, plus you give him 20 meters? Itachi's only chance is if he has Izanami and Minato suddenly goes bad. It's so sad to see Itachi become so irrelevant (power wise) so quick. It's too bad his power plateaued before any good feats against stronger rivals could measure his Edo form. His power level is forever stuck at a conveniently designed Izanami battle where he could not fight and had to resort to the ultimate "ass-pull."



1. No.
2. 2, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and clones.
3. Izanami was expected and made sense from Itachi's character standpoint, Minato pulled out SM without it ever being mentioned by Jiraiya, especially since he was a near perfect sage while in the mode.
4. As a fan of both, please stop.

50/50 Match.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> The Genjutsu wank is terrible.



Its a poor understanding of how Genjutsu works, imo. 
The only character who can do what they say Itachi can do is Sasuke using _*Rinnegan*_ Genjutsu.



Dr. White said:


> 1. No.
> 2. 2, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and clones.
> 3. Izanami was expected and made sense from Itachi's character standpoint, Minato pulled out SM without it ever being mentioned by Jiraiya, especially since he was a near perfect sage while in the mode.
> 4. As a fan of both, please stop.
> ...



Tsukuyomi... I say Hiraishin or that jutsu. Clones would work better for Minato because he actually has a lot of chakra whereas Itachi actually has a small amount of chakra. 
Sage Mode made sense, otherwise it wouldn't make sense that the toads who *TEACH* Sennin Mode know about Minato. 

This "as a fan of both" never contributes to the debate at all. In fact proclaiming fandom is *never* a good idea in any debate, ever. 

It isn't a 50-50 match. 
Minato is a sensor, he has Hiraishin which he can use better than Tobirama and now he actually has both arms. Itachi is only slightly faster than when he fought Sasuke and doesn't cough blood.
Minato wins more times than not.


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## Dr. White (Oct 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > Clones would work better for Minato because he actually has a lot of chakra whereas Itachi actually has a small amount of chakra.
> 
> 
> Show me where it's stated Itachi has low amounts of chakra. Last time I checked on his deathbed he outlasted Hebi Sasuke, despite using more costly jutsu. Just saiyan. Itachi's Karasu Bushin's also cost less than shadow bushins and are perfect for feinting and setting up genjutsu.
> ...


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

minato takes this


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Show me where it's stated Itachi has low amounts of chakra. Last time I checked on his deathbed he outlasted Hebi Sasuke, despite using more costly jutsu. Just saiyan. Itachi's Karasu Bushin's also cost less than shadow bushins and are perfect for feinting and setting up genjutsu.



You don't have to look any future than Sasuke vs Itachi and the databook which supports that notion.

You can say terms like "deathbed" all you like. *Nothing* pertained towards chakra level. 

Karasu Bunshins are less costly than Kage Bunshin; good for someone with poor reserves. Itachi never used costly jutsu outside the MS. Going by that, 5 MS uses and he'll be down.



> Minato already has base sensing and can't control SM that long.



Base sensing is more than enough to get Minato by. He can control a perfect SM, just not for long. Good for short bursts: Itachi is *significantly* slower than Juubidara.



> This has been done to death so I gave a short summary.



I said it is a horrible summary because being a fan of both characters means nothing. It adds no special qualification to one's stance. 



> Okay sensing =/ genjutsu immunity or allow him to detect clones any better (see SM Kabuto), Hirashin counterbalances with MS Hax, Itachi is very fast and always has been him and Minato aren't that far off in base speed.



Sensing helps Minato see if his chakra is messed up, which helps him see if he's under Genjutsu; it is how Karin could tell Danzou didn't use Genjutsu on Sasuke. 
Itachi doesn't have a lot of chakra, all Minato has to do is see which Itachi has the most chakra... that Itachi would be the real one. Seeing as Karasu Bunshin would have less chakra than Itachi. 

Hiraishin *exceeds* MS hax. If Minato can teleport a full sized Juubidama, then something like imperfect Susanoo is easy. Especially as all Itachi needs to do is be near the Hiraishin range. 

Minato is significantly faster than Itachi in base mode. Even *Sasuke* was able to keep up with Itachi. Itachi only had speed issues with dodging a shuriken, apart from that all good. 
When Itachi has reflexes/speed to react to Ei, beat Tobi in a split second and teleport Gedo-Dama near instantly (which are faster than Kamui). When you can show me Itachi can do things on par with that, *then* I will agree that the speed gap isn't that wide between them. 



> Stop the hate.



Giving you facts does not equate to hate.


----------



## Chaotic Gangsta (Oct 5, 2014)

Wait, I'm so far behind in the manga LOL! Base Minato has great sensory abilities akin to that of an Uzamaki? Links please? I seriously need to refresh


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Oct 5, 2014)

Literally been here since 06', and its been Minato winning every damn time 

In brief, Minato wins now, next year, and the consecutive years following.


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## Almondsand (Oct 6, 2014)

THIS IS NOT A FUCKING EVEN MATCH.

WHO ELSE IN THE MANGA IS AS GENJUTSU ORIENTED AS ITACHI? No one he is an absolute genius at genjutsu, he is basically OP. Everyone gets caught by his genjutsu, he doesn't even try. Orochimaru is a greater genius than Minato (confirmed by Minato and Sandaime Hokage when they were revived by him) with an affinity to genjutsu and look how easily Itachi dispatched him, he also cut off his hand, the only time Itachi has been shown in the manga to attack someone he put under a spell. Everyone gets caught and Itachi is at least as fast as RKM Naruto. His genjutsu and agility alone is enough to dispatch everyone not on God tier. 

Minato has shown that he sucks at his own techniques(stole or copied all of them), his predecessors as well as his descendants showed him up. He got hit the most, and was closest to dying despite being an Edo. Let's be clear.. Minato hype has  been deflated, all he done was get countered over and over and over. Minato was the most useless in the whole war. Sakura has more feats by a mile..

Itachi will casually feint Minato with a Karasu Bunshin, genjutsu him and then slice his head off. Minato Thunder God Technique is also useless against a Kunai Grandmaster such as Itachi who has shown the best technique with them in the manga. He also has nature manipulation which Minato also lacks. Fire Nature Kunai >>> Minato Kunai, Minato will never been able to get close and he lacks long range techniques... Face it Itachi is the perfect counter to Minato.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Literally been here since 06', and its been Minato winning every damn time
> 
> In brief, Minato wins now, next year, and the consecutive years following.



Completely agree 



Almondsand said:


> Everyone gets caught and* Itachi is at least as fast as RKM Naruto*. *His genjutsu and agility alone is enough to dispatch everyone not on God tier. *




Your going a bit overboard here buddy lmao


----------



## Almondsand (Oct 6, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Your going a bit overboard here buddy lmao



It's manga canon that Itachi is at least as fast as Naruto in KCM mode, he was dodging attacks from Bi and Naruto at the same time. Read the manga before you send out negs because your ass hurt Minato is complete shit.

Itachi is also an elite strategist unlike Minato, we seen how many fucking mistakes Minato make in battle. Itachi makes none, only of his own choosing. It's no feats shown in the manga of Minato that indicates he has anything to trouble Itachi, he gets countered everytime.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> It's manga canon that Itachi is at least as fast as Naruto in KCM mode



Naruto was simply exchanging without too much effort. Read that chapter again, he was talking to him the whole time. Not much of a feat tbh.

And Itachi was running from a base Bee's sword dance, it wasnt V1 or V2. Hardly a feat 



Almondsand said:


> Read the manga



I have read the manga, apparently more than you have 



Almondsand said:


> because your ass hurt Minato is complete shit.



Not hurt at all. Minato is portrayed higher than Itachi. Should we discuss BM Minato vs Itachi ?



Almondsand said:


> Itachi is also an elite strategist unlike Minato



Minato is also a genius 



Almondsand said:


> we seen how many fucking mistakes Minato make in battle.



Lol'd


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 6, 2014)

An Itachi is not an elite strategists. His plan for Sasuke failed at everyturn. He had two back up plans in case Obito turned Sasuke (amaterasu trap, and Koto) and both failed. Minato's plan, on the other hand, succeeded. His plan for Naruto to take control of Kurama and use the chakra to beat Obito, and become the savior of the world all worked. He made that plan up in the span of 5 minutes(most likely less, definitely not more) and succeeded, while Itachi spent years of planning and still failed.


----------



## lathia (Oct 6, 2014)

I just re-read all of this. I love you Itachi fans, I truly do. :3


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## Almondsand (Oct 6, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Naruto was simply exchanging without too much effort. Read that chapter again, he was talking to him the whole time. Not much of a feat tbh.


Lets be real. Itachi could had easily sealed Naruto and Bee with the Totsuka due to close range combat(much shorter distance than when he sealed Nagato later in the fight). If Kabuto utilized Itachi to be serious against the two, the fight would had ended with the swiftness. Itachi had to give them advice the whole fight and performed better than both combined. 



> And Itachi was running from a base Bee's sword dance, it wasnt V1 or V2. Hardly a feat


Running? When have Bi ever used V1 or V2 in combination with his sword dance. Even so.. What makes you think he's going to touch him. Itachi didn't even have to use his agility.. Susano'o lvl 1 would had stopped that regardless. Bi couldn't handle Itachi at all, he was warned by Itachi when Itachi shunshined behind him. Bi automatically countered Minato when he tried the same with his stolen technique.  Proof that Itachi reflexes are superior. 


> I have read the manga, apparently more than you have


 
So your ignorance is no excuse.. 


> Not hurt at all. Minato is portrayed higher than Itachi. Should we discuss BM Minato vs Itachi ?


Minato had to die to get that power, it's not apart of his move set. Even if it was, he's just a bigger target for Totsuka, and he will be dead once he try to attack Yata. 


> Minato is also a genius


Minato fail count is infinite. He's not a genius, he became Hokage because the Third's first option fucked it up for himself. Orochimaru was actually the heir to the 4th Hokage title, not Minato. Orochimaru actually created jutsu, not just steal techniques. Also read the 4th ninja war, Minato showing in that was severely lacking and showed he was all fart gas, no substance. What's funny is that the Minato faded from the manga, the next chapter and even in the lastest chapter of Naruto, ITACHI GETS HYPED EVEN MORE LOL. Author portrayal shows Itachi as superior. 


> Lol'd



You wanna know what a character more useless than neji says after he loses his arms and have to be stuck with the "I eat ass" face? Click below


----------



## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Lets be real.



Ok, that means no Itachi wanking 



Almondsand said:


> Itachi could had easily sealed Naruto and Bee with the Totsuka



Proof of this ? 



Almondsand said:


> Running?



Yes, he was running away, he couldnt even counter



Almondsand said:


> Susano'o lvl 1 would had stopped that regardless.



Proof ? 



Almondsand said:


> Proof that Itachi reflexes are superior.



Minato > Itachi in speed clearly 





Almondsand said:


> Minato had to die to get that power, it's not apart of his move set.



He can use BM regardless. Itachi gets owned


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## Almondsand (Oct 6, 2014)

Dude you have no point at all, it's obvious at this point. Fragmenting my points without the actual content of the posts in quotations and then posting questions to them, shows lack of effective debate skills as well as huge frustration. You're almost as shit as Minato at this point, getting countered over and over. No wonder you suck Minato's dick so much, you're practically looking at a better version of you which, in itself as Kishimoto portrays, is very fucking fail.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Dude you have no point at all, it's obvious at this point.



LOL'd

Im not the one claiming this:

*"His genjutsu and agility alone is enough to dispatch everyone not on God tier. "*




Almondsand said:


> Fragmenting my points without the actual content



I simply asked for proof or scans of your assumptions...If you can't do that then I assume you can't debate any further...



Almondsand said:


> huge frustration.



Im cool beans man...it just seems your unable to explain yourslef 



Almondsand said:


> You're almost as shit as Minato at this point,.



Minato > Itachi 

For several reasons. But your a wanker, so its futile to try and debate with a bias 

Also from someone who has took part in NBD since 06' 


*Spoiler*: __ 





Elite Uchiha said:


> Literally been here since 06', and its been Minato winning every damn time
> 
> In brief, Minato wins now, next year, and the consecutive years following.


----------



## Almondsand (Oct 7, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> How does Minato deal with Genjutsu?



I need this answered


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> I need this answered




Because Minato is an excellent sensor type ninja and can fight without using his eyes. There are several moments that he displayed such talent. As long as he plays against Itachi's genjutsu he'll never lose. Everything else is either dodged or S/T Barrier'd away.


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## Almondsand (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Because Minato is an excellent sensor type ninja and can fight without using his eyes. There are several moments that he displayed such talent. As long as he plays against Itachi's genjutsu he'll never lose. Everything else is either dodged or S/T Barrier'd away.



Yet you didn't post these moments. Post an example of him performing these excellent sensory techniques with his eyes close, dodging attacks and doing S/T.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Oct 7, 2014)

...wait, is someone trying to argue that Minato can warp OUT of a Genjutsu, like Tsukuyomi??? Yeah, OKAY


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## Kyu (Oct 7, 2014)

Minato avoids _Tsukuyomi_ by sensing the chakra buildup in Itachi's eye.

He deals with regular genjutsu like any other well rounded Kage level shinobi would - by breaking out or use a clone+FTG feint to not get caught in the first place.

Itachi needs to land _Tsukuyomi_ for this fight to end which he may or may not do before running out of chakra as a result of defending himself from Minato's constant blitz attempts.


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## Final Jutsu (Oct 7, 2014)

Minato wins.. He has great counters to everything Itachi can throw at him.

Tsukiyomi - Sensing, clones, and extreme speed.  Tsukiyomi is a close range jutsu, so that makes it worse.

Amaterasu - Hiraishin, reflexes, clones, sensing.   He will sense the chakra build up like Nagato did.  He will dodge it like Ei.  Even IF he were to be hit somehow, he would simply hiraishin away from it before damage is inflicted.  As he did here.  

_Kakashi_

Susanoo - He can simply wait Itachi out.  That, or tag Susanoo, then warp it, or simply teleport inside and slice Itachi in half with his kunai.  People need to remember that Minato's markings have a teleportation radius where he can appear.  If Itachi's susanoo is anywhere near a marking, Minato can go inside.


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2014)

even though it's obvious that Minato's level is beyond itachi, I don't see itachi even dealing with one speedblitze, but either way, I hope the 4td DB comes out really soon, and perhaps we can see how good Minato is at some stuff like 
Taijutsu, genjutsu...etc


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> ...wait, is someone trying to argue that Minato can warp OUT of a Genjutsu, like Tsukuyomi??? Yeah, OKAY





How about show us the statement that someone even said this ? 

Or else I'm just guessing your comments have zero value



Hussain said:


> even though it's obvious that Minato's level is beyond itachi, I don't see itachi even dealing with one speedblitze, but either way, I hope the 4td DB comes out really soon, and perhaps we can see how good Minato is at some stuff like
> Taijutsu, genjutsu...etc




Agreed


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## Almondsand (Oct 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> even though it's obvious that Minato's level is beyond itachi, I don't see itachi even dealing with one speedblitze, but either way, I hope the 4td DB comes out really soon, and perhaps we can see how good Minato is at some stuff like
> Taijutsu, genjutsu...etc



LOL... I guess that's Minato fanboys only hope at this point since it has been shown in the manga, the hype was shart based off his recent feats. Minato with all his sensory techniques, was countered over and over and over. All that speed yet he was touched.

Itachi controlled all his battles we witnessed. Touched only when he allowed it.


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## Trojan (Oct 8, 2014)

yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. 
We all know that itachi is on the same level as JJ Obito, and JJ SM Madara. I mean who dares to disagree with that?


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## Hachibi (Oct 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.
> We all know that itachi is on the same level as JJ Obito, and JJ SM Madara. I mean who dares to disagree with that?



You finally admitted it 

I'm proud of you :ignoramus


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## Almondsand (Oct 8, 2014)

The 2nd Hokage said that Minato was superior to him in speed of the FTG technique, Yet Tobirama actually showed the most effective and smart tactics with the technique and didn't spam at all. Minato spammed it and got fucked up, out of the game quickly. The second Hokage showed what an elite strategist can do. Speed isn't everything, especially when you are easily countered.. Sad that Minato told Kakashi that but he didn't abide by his own advice. Itachi who had a hokage level intellect at 7 LOLRAPES Minato just because Itachi is just a better fighter.


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## Trojan (Oct 8, 2014)

Wow, the -nvm- in that post is just too much. 
Tobirama did not spam FTG? Showed the most effective and smart tactics? 

as for being fucked up, lol, Tobirama got shat on much worst if anything, and against weaker foes.


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## Almondsand (Oct 17, 2014)

You can't argue that Tobirama was much more effective with FTG than Minato. He was also planning attacks on the fly that were successful or useful unlike Minato.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 17, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> LOL... I guess that's Minato fanboys only hope at this point since it has been shown in the manga, the hype was shart based off his recent feats



Minato lived up to his "hype" for the most part. Granted I did expect more from him with his new granted powers while in Edo form



> Minato with all his sensory techniques, was countered over and over and over. All that speed yet he was touched.



Your point  would be all find and dandy if he wasn't fighting Juubi Jins...Itachi never faced anyone remotely close to that power level. Apples vs oranges



> Itachi controlled all his battles we witnessed. Touched only when he allowed it.



umm no




Almondsand said:


> The 2nd Hokage said that Minato was superior to him in speed of the FTG technique, Yet Tobirama actually showed the most effective and smart tactics with the technique and didn't spam at all. Minato spammed it and got fucked up, out of the game quickly. The second Hokage showed what an elite strategist can do. Speed isn't everything, especially when you are easily countered.. Sad that Minato told Kakashi that but he didn't abide by his own advice. Itachi who had a hokage level intellect at 7 LOLRAPES Minato just because Itachi is just a better fighter.



Minato is superior in base speed and can spread his prepped kunais out much faster then Tobirama. Tobirama on the other hand had shown superior reflexes even over Minatos new powers, vastly superior battle interlect/ knowledge, and sensing

Both Minato & Tobirama have been hyped and shown to be on another level then Itachi. Couldn't get much clearer


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 17, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> You can't argue that Tobirama was much more effective with FTG than Minato. He was also planning attacks on the fly that were successful or useful unlike Minato.


Do we even read the same manga? What strategies was Tobirama making on the fly? Is this the same Tobirama that was asking minato what to do when Obito was about to fire 4 tailed beast bombs?

Remind me, who used FTG to save all of ninja kind twice? Was it Tobirama  he wishes. Who was so fast that he left all the other ninja in his dust, had time to teleport a bomb, set up markings and have a nice chat with Naruto and Sakura...was it Tobirama 

Whose chakra was it that every single person in the alliance grabbed onto, in order to pull out the tailed beasts from obito. Yep that's right, it was minato. All the Hokage and ninja alliance were completely useless, until minato stepped in and gave everyone something to pull.

When Tobirama was like 10 black rods shoved up his ass by Madara, and was completely useless. What was minato doing.. Oh yeah that's right, he was commanding Kakashi, Gaara and Lee, and saved Guy from the truth seeking balls... during all that, Tobirama, was still lying flat on his face.

Now that my rant is over, let me clarify something, I'm not saying Tobirama didn't do anything or didn't do enough. In fact, Tobirama did splendid, he was truly amazing. But he did nowhere near as much as minato. Minatos contribution is the reason the alliance still exists and the reason Obito was defeated. He's even the reason Madara wasn't able to use the Rinne Tensei, because he slashed Obito before anyone else could reach him.

But for some reason, people try to bash minato, just because he was a little emotional (his fav student turned evil and his son was dying, so sue him). He made mistakes, just like every other main character in this manga. And then people deliberately ignore all the good minato did, completely disregarding all his feats and hype, just because he was overpowered by gods. Hashirama, Tobirama and Hiruzen were all killed in this war, minato is the only one who was not. And minato did more than all of them, anyone who can count knows this. I just wish people would stop pretending as if minato did nothing and that the other Hokage did no wrong.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 17, 2014)

Without full knowledge I lean towards Itachi catching Minato in a genjutsu with some unorthodox method he's never encountered before.


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## Gamaholic (Oct 18, 2014)

Itachi will take this one cuz Minato isnt Edo Tensei so Itachi will use Totsuka Blade or Genjutsu.
But if Minato was in Edo Tensei Form he could beat Itachi easily.


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