# Kaido and Big Mom vs. Luffy, Kidd, Zoro, and Law



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

Just trying to make sense of all these prediction that both Big Mom and Kaido will fall. 

Conditions: 
-All characters in character.
-Big Mom is bloodlusted with no hunger tantrums. 
-Kaido is drunk-ish, but is fighting to kill. 
-Luffy and Zoro can only hurt Kaido. There's still no proof Big Mom can be hurt with Advanced CoA and/or Oden nor is there proof that Law and Kidd can hurt either Kaido and Big Mom at this point. 
-The Alliance characters gain two lives as an equivalent of plot protection. 

Scenario 1: Big Mom and Kaido can combine their attacks, essentially working as a team.
Scenario 2: Kaido and Big Mom work separately, but they just happen to not attack each other.


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## Beast (Apr 11, 2020)

You gave zoro the power to hurt the yonko but say Kidd and Law haven’t shown that they could... am I missing something or are Law and Kidd not the highlights that will fight Kaidou and/ or BM with Luffy guaranteed not Zoro?

Makes little sense imo, all 4 need to be able to do damage or it makes no sense, heck maybe not Law as his powers are useful in other ways but Kidd? If he can’t hurt them, then you might as well take him off the list tbh. 

S1- BM/ Kaidou win mid diff
S2- BM/ Kaidou win mid/ high diff

I don’t think it’s going to be such a straight forward fight and it won’t JUST be the auction trio that will do all the heavy lifting. 

There is still Drake, Hawkins, Jinbe and even sanji that could end up finishing other fights and join in to either distract, assist or even power up one of the three main players. Hawkins has a booster card, Drake could end up getting in the main battle against Kaidou and BM, Sanji can come help whichever side is doing worse or just help distract BM with either food or pudding/ Vinsmokes. 

I don’t think it’s going to be a straight battle like a battle dome, if it is then boy oh boy...


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## MO (Apr 11, 2020)

Luffy and them get one shoted


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 11, 2020)

team 2 wins with some help 

best prepare yourself, this is the "yonkou get owned" arc







> heck maybe not Law as his powers are useful in other ways
> but Kidd?


the guy with GK, Mes etc. cant do dmg, but a ~weaker Luffy with worse haki can ?


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## Beast (Apr 11, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> team 2 wins with some help
> 
> best prepare yourself, this is the "yonkou get owned" arc
> 
> ...


What?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 11, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> What?


nothing 


you best grow out of the "Law is only support" mindset


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## Beast (Apr 11, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> nothing
> 
> 
> you best grow out of the "Law is only support" mindset


When Law is useless, he is still useful. 
Law is support at his worse.


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## Lawliet (Apr 11, 2020)

Not a fair thread and a set of conditions. 

 You claim that Kid and Law can't hurt Kaidou or Big Mom, yet you put them in the fight. why? if they thought they can't do anything to Kaidou or BM, they wouldn't be raiding Onigashima now would they?


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## Etherborn (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Luffy and Zoro can only hurt Kaido.



You made a Battledome thread in which one of the conditions is that half of one team cannot harm a member of the other? What exactly is the point of that?

If the hardest hitter on their team isn't able to harm one of their opponents, then that gives the Yonko team a significant advantage. You even admitted you don't think it's likely that Kid or Law can harm either of them, so again, what's the point? It almost sounds like you're saying, "If you don't believe Big Mom is invulnerable, pretend she is."

Obviously if none of the fighters present can harm Big Mom due to the conditions of your thread, then the Yonko team wins. I'm not sure why you need people to verify this for you. It's like asking, "If fighter A had invincibility on, could the rest of the fighters without it beat fighter A?"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Just trying to make sense of all these prediction that both Big Mom and Kaido will fall.
> 
> Conditions:
> -All characters in character.
> ...



Luffs believes he can beat Kaidou with CoA; I see no reason to doubt him. Add Zoro in and this is an easier win then it will be in Canon; as likely in the manga Zoro will have to face King or his main enemy first and he will only deal a stray hit to Kaidou with Enma.

Kidd not being able to damage Kaidou or Big Mom is obviously not true as Hawkins believed Kidd, Appo, and himself stood at least a decent chance of beating Kaidou; as otherwise he wouldn’t have tried to take him on; evident in the fact that after they were betrayed by Apoo; and their chances dropped to zero of beating Kaidou that he back down and surrendered. Also there is no reason to have Apoo betrayal even be a thing writing wise if Kaidou could definitely have beaten them regardless of the betrayal; Oda would have just had Kaidou slap them and Apoo and Hawkins Cuck down and join the crew that way. That whole inclusion of the betray story line in the narrative is there to show that Kid with some assistance can beat a Yonko. 

So anyway Kidd with as good or better assistance of Law likely beats Big Mom; who seems to be missing her homies and weakened anyway.


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## Dark Knight (Apr 11, 2020)

If big mom needed to use haki to block a gear 4th punch, why wouldn't advanced coa hurt her?


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## Corax (Apr 11, 2020)

I think each yonko will fight 3 SN/Scabbards. So in this scenario they win. But if we add plot protection Luffy and his team wins obviously.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

So y'all see my point right?


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## Redline (Apr 11, 2020)

Zoro can take Kaido alone as far as I am concern, the other 3 can have iron big mom to deal with


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## Draco Bolton (Apr 11, 2020)

Since BM can't be hurted then Yonko rape diff.

If she can be hurted Yonko mid diff at worst.


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## Ruse (Apr 11, 2020)

Yonko win since then half the team can’t do anything


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## Gledania (Apr 11, 2020)

I believe law can hurt kaido in a way or another. I doubt kidd can unless he show some advanced CoA feats.
However depending on what kind of weapons will be there, kidd can gather all the weapons and "chain" or "paralyse" Kaido a minute with it for luffy to give the final punch.


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## Etherborn (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> So y'all see my point right?



Your point is that they can't beat Big Mom if they aren't allowed to attack her? Because that's kind of obvious and doesn't really warrant a thread.


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## Ruse (Apr 11, 2020)

How come Luffy can only hurt Kaido not Big Mom? She actively blocked a kong gun from a weaker version of Luffy who couldn’t use advanced CoA


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## Angrel-San (Apr 11, 2020)

Kaido and Big Mom together fighting as a team is an autowin.


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## Dunno (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> So y'all see my point right?


Is your point that if you make one combatant immune to the other team's attack, that combatant's side wins?


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

@Turrin responding to your neg:



Turrin said:


> So anyway Kidd with as good or better assistance of Law likely beats Big Mom



Sorry, but this shit is funny bro. 



Etherborn said:


> Your point is that they can't beat Big Mom if they aren't allowed to attack her? Because that's kind of obvious and doesn't really warrant a thread.



Apparently it does. 



Dunno said:


> Is your point that if you make one combatant immune to the other team's attack, that combatant's side wins?



Yes. Because I honestly don't see a way Kaido and Big Mom lose without Oda making a mockery of his whole manga. At least in Naruto and Bleach, the main characters would get cheap power-ups, but they were power-ups nonetheless. Luffy simply being able to harm Kaido is not good enough.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> @Turrin responding to your neg:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’ll see you at the end of the arc; stay salty bro


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## Dunno (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Yes. Because I honestly don't see a way Kaido and Big Mom lose without Oda making a mockery of his whole manga. At least in Naruto and Bleach, the main characters would get cheap power-ups, but they were power-ups nonetheless. Luffy simply being able to harm Kaido is not good enough.


That is a legitimate point. Luffy and his Chosen One plot armour is annoying. I wouldn't mind if Big Mom actually ate him.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> stay salty bro


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## Conxc (Apr 11, 2020)

I mean Enma allows the wielder to hurt kaido. That’s what it does. It’s magic after all so I see nothing wrong with that part...


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


>



 is when you are  over something le


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## Kamina. (Apr 11, 2020)

Zoro low diffs

Reactions: Like 4


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> is when you are  over something le



Yeah, I just don't see how I am the salty one in this situation.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> *: Have you a good response and you just laughed. Have some Neg rep, expect less bias from a mod*


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## Amol (Apr 11, 2020)

If they can hurt Kaido then they can also hurt Big Mom. 
It is weird and nonsensical restriction to have. It is not possible to have any kind of constructive debate with such kinds of rules. 
Anyway SN should lose. 
It is gonna take AH3 to just beat Kaido. I personally don't believe Big Mom is going down in this arc. She will for whatever reason leave the island. 
Or if Oda intends to have both of them go down then all the SN would team up. 
So these two will go down to team of Luffy, Law, Kid,Zoro, Hawkins, Drake, Killer and probably Jinbe. It is also entirely possible that Urouge crash lands on Wano. I would also prefer if Bege joins the fight against Big Mom. Cover stories don't run exactly in real time with manga. It has been weeks since they left WCI. Bege could have went to Dressrosa in first week only. 
Anyway point is it will take take lot of support to beat these two. At least 3 SN per Yonkou. 
And I still expect deaths. This is not going to be easy fights for our heroes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Joe Maiafication (Apr 11, 2020)

CIS and PIS aside.

Kaido and BM low diff


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

Amol said:


> If they can hurt Kaido then they can also hurt Big Mom.



It doesn't work like that. Big Mom has a special impenetrable skin as already been confirmed by multiple characters. Kaido, who has normal human skin, has scars, while Big Mom who started her pirating career as a child, in the NW to boot, has literally none.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 11, 2020)

Kaidos skin was impenetrable to drops, hanging, executions swords etc. (and to G4)
his isnt any less hype than BM

and he only has 1 scar from Loden IIRC

any potent damaging *top*-tier attack can make that landwhale bleed 


also





Kamina. said:


> Zoro low diffs


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## Amol (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> It doesn't work like that. Big Mom has a special impenetrable skin as already been confirmed by multiple characters. Kaido, who has normal human skin, has a shitton of scars, while Big Mom who started her pirating career as a child, in the NW to boot, has literally none.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

Tell that to Oda bro.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 11, 2020)

losing to Loden >> losing to a picture of some hag


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Kaidos skin was impenetrable to drops, hanging, executions swords etc. (and to G4)
> his isnt any less hype than BM



He is. Since he took a hit from Luffy while Big Mom tanked a bunch of high-tier to top-tier attacks like they were nothing.



Shiba D. Inu said:


> losing to Loden >> losing to a picture of some hag



Everyone has a weakness.


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## B Rabbit (Apr 11, 2020)

Oda put the two weeks inbetween for everyone to get stronger.

Law and Kidd are def stronger than before.


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## Etherborn (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Yes. Because I honestly don't see a way Kaido and Big Mom lose without Oda making a mockery of his whole manga. At least in Naruto and Bleach, the main characters would get cheap power-ups, but they were power-ups nonetheless. Luffy simply being able to harm Kaido is not good enough.





Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> It doesn't work like that. Big Mom has a special impenetrable skin as already been confirmed by multiple characters. Kaido, who has normal human skin, has scars, while Big Mom who started her pirating career as a child, in the NW to boot, has literally none.



So to sum this up, you think Big Mom is invincible and that it'll be an asspull by Oda if she ever gets defeated.

Maybe don't convince yourself that a character is invincible to begin with? Problem solved.


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## Asaya7 (Apr 11, 2020)

why does zoro get to be included but not killer?

[HASHTAG]#sadlife[/HASHTAG]


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## B Rabbit (Apr 11, 2020)

The way I see it.

Pre-2 weeks

Luffy First Mate Level
Kidd-Third Commander Level
Law-=< Doffy/Veteran Level.
Zoro=<Doffy.

Post 2 weeks.
Luffy> Yonkou Firstmate
Kidd>Firstmatw
Law>Second Mate
Zoro>Third Mate.

All four are stronger than Doffy because of the 2 week training period.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

Etherborn said:


> So to sum this up, you think Big Mom is invincible and that it'll be an asspull by Oda if she ever gets defeated.



No lol. Big Mom already got hurt in the series through abusing her weakness, and she has been pushed into sea twice before. Not being able to penetrate her skin with normal means doesn't mean auto-win. Brook hurt her homies, Blackbeard can probably do that as well.. I'm saying Luffy, Law, Kid, and Zoro can't do it. Nor have they worked up any strategy do so. So them being able to magically harm her out of nowhere without a proper build or plan is an asspull. Otherwise, why spend the panels to empathizes the point that Advanced CoA, YC attacks, and Yonkou-tier attacks can't do shit to her.



> Maybe don't convince yourself that a character is invincible to begin with? Problem solved.



I dont have to convince myself when Oda's been doing all the convincing. She's the most tankiest character in the series and no one's even close. She has the ultimate defense in series, beating her without a strategy or plan is shit asspull writing.


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## B Rabbit (Apr 11, 2020)

That is true. Out of all the Yonkous Big Mom has yet to have a serious blow dealt on her.

However in the same aspect Big Mom hasn't faced Oden or Admirals yet like WB and Kaidou have.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Apr 11, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> That is true. Out of all the Yonkous Big Mom has yet to have a serious blow dealt on her.
> 
> However in the same aspect Big Mom hasn't faced Oden or Admirals yet like WB and Kaidou have.


 She had done better indeed. She has faced Kaido


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> That is true. Out of all the Yonkous Big Mom has yet to have a serious blow dealt on her.
> 
> However in the same aspect Big Mom hasn't faced Oden or Admirals yet like WB and Kaidou have.



No, she just faced Kaido.


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## Etherborn (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> I dont have to convince myself when Oda's been doing all the convincing. She's the most tankiest character in the series and no one's even close. She has the ultimate defense in series, beating her without a strategy or plan is shit asspull writing.



In what shounen manga that centers around action and combat is a villain unbeatable to the main character except under very specific circumstances? I can think of Bleach, but at least Yhwach was a final villain. Big Mom isn't even that. Odds are she's not as invulnerable as you think and can be harmed. Your interpretation that she's the tankiest character in the series is just that: an interpretation. It's never been stated. In fact, Kaido has received such hype from the author moreso than Big Mom, what with the whole, "he can't die" bullshit. 

Mangakas hyping up villains to be unbeatable is not uncommon. We thought logias were invincible except under specific circumstances for most of part 1 of the series, and then Oda revealed a way they could be harmed. Big Mom is not special, at least not among top tiers, and never has been. Don't blame Oda just because you were a bit gullible and believed the "she can't be beaten" hype.


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## B Rabbit (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> No, she just faced Kaido.


Show me a panel where Kaidou landed a clean blow on here.

@Gianfi @Charlotte D. Kurisu 

Don't act stupid. I was putting out durability. She has never on panel tanked a full power blow from a top tier. So ofcourse to this point ahe seems invincible.


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## Beast (Apr 11, 2020)

How could Bm be invincible when just dropping on her knees make her bleed?


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## B Rabbit (Apr 11, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> How could Bm be invincible when just dropping on her knees make her bleed?



That scene never made sense to me.

I treat it as an outlier and author stupidity and move on. Similar to Goku getting harmed by a bullet in Super.


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Yeah, I just don't see how I am the salty one in this situation.


Guess you got too much salt in your eyes


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## Shirohige da (Apr 11, 2020)

For now, Yonko team.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

Etherborn said:


> In what shounen manga that centers around action and combat is a villain unbeatable to the main character except under very specific circumstances? I can think of Bleach, but at least Yhwach was a final villain. Big Mom isn't even that. Odds are she's not as invulnerable as you think and can be harmed.



She's as invulnerable as Oda wants her to be. Which so far means she can tank buffed Zeus attacks, Queen's attacks, and Luffy's pre-trained Advanced CoA without using Haki herself. 



Etherborn said:


> Your interpretation that she's the tankiest character in the series is just that: an interpretation. It's never been stated. In fact, Kaido has received such hype from the author moreso than Big Mom, what with the whole, "he can't die" bullshit.



You're kidding right? She has the best tanking feats AND she's been hyped to have impenetrable skin. Fuck outta here with this "it's an interpretation" bullshit. If it's an interpretation it's Oda damn intention to be one. Kaido's can't die hype is already proved to be baseless hype as it's been proven he can be wounded by Luffy, and not just Enma. 




Etherborn said:


> Mangakas hyping up villains to be unbeatable is not uncommon. We thought logias were invincible except under specific circumstances for most of part 1 of the series, and then Oda revealed a way they could be harmed.



If Oda introduces a new non-conventional way to harm Big Mom, I'd welcome it. But I'd rather it was built up rather than introduced last minute aka. an asspull. 



Etherborn said:


> Big Mom is not special, at least not among top tiers, and never has been. Don't blame Oda just because you were a bit gullible and believed the "she can't be beaten" hype.



Strawman, never said she can't be beaten. Otherwise, she would've already been PK, and I already admitted there are ways to defeat her. So kindly put a lid on that. 

Also, that's horseshit, Big Mom is so obviously tankier than Whitebeard and even Kaido. And I am basing that on feats. They might have better offense, but she's obviously special when it comes to defense.

I wont even touch the adrmials as they'd be closer to napkins compared to her durability. 



MasterBeast said:


> How could Bm be invincible when just dropping on her knees make her bleed?



Her weakness is that she's emotionally unstable and that heavily nerfs her. I thought that was already established.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> Show me a panel where Kaidou landed a clean blow on here.
> 
> @Gianfi @Charlotte D. Kurisu
> 
> Don't act stupid. I was putting out durability. She has never on panel tanked a full power blow from a top tier. So ofcourse to this point ahe seems invincible.



I guess Kaido was hitting her with his penis then.


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## B Rabbit (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> I guess Kaido was hitting her with his penis then.


Dude. You're a mod. You can act better and debate better than this.

My refute to your point about Big Mom being the tankiest of the Yonkou was because on Panel she has never taken an attack on the level from her peers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deleted member 58423 (Apr 11, 2020)

zoro solos, other SNs cheer on the sidelines


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 11, 2020)

girafarig said:


> zoro solos, other SNs cheer on the sidelines


good boy

that means Luffy cheers on thre sidelines too


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 11, 2020)

girafarig said:


> luffy will be dealing with imu-sama.


he will need Law to remove Inus immortality


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 11, 2020)

@Charlotte D. Kurisu why do you even come to this section and make BM threads ?


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## Geralt-Singh (Apr 11, 2020)

Year 2020 and there are still people implying that characters such as Garp / Sengoku / Shanks / Dragon and many more can't hurt Big Mom

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amol (Apr 11, 2020)

So Charlotte D. Kurisu is basically telling me that attacks that can *defeat* Kaido can't even scratch Big Mom. 
Yeah not touching that kind of wanking and fanboyism with ten foot pole. It is waste of my time.
Big Mom is clearly invisible. /s


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## Beast (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Her weakness is that she's emotionally unstable and that heavily nerfs her. I thought that was already established.


What does mental trauma have to do with physical invulnerability?


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## Deleted member 58423 (Apr 11, 2020)

i'm pretty sure BM is stronger than laido. when has laido eaten a whole village full of people, huh? never. the feats just ain't there for him.

also her fruit is useful - something that cannot be said about laido's big lizard riffraff.

don't see his favorite hostage trick working on her either. she's way too selfish for that

WB i can see defeating her and BB might be able to hurt her - that's about it tho.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 11, 2020)

Kaido one shots each and every single one of them based on current feats. For big mom we are yet to see what can actually damage her while in a sane state of mind and at 100% mass.


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## Deleted member 58423 (Apr 11, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido one shots each and every single one of them based on current feats. For big mom we are yet to see what can actually damage her while in a sane state of mind and at 100% mass.



what are kaido's feats?

i can only think of 1001 hostages, having a man far superior to him boiled in a blackmail kind of a situation, being saved by a 100 year old granny, taking an L from a crippled fish specialist before marineford and getting pwnd by garp+roger as a youth.

but hey, one man's L is another's W or something


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> Dude. You're a mod. You can act better and debate better than this.
> 
> My refute to your point about Big Mom being the tankiest of the Yonkou was because on Panel she has never taken an attack on the level from her peers.



I'm sorry. Would you have rather I flatly pointed how ridiculous and absurd your insinuation that Big Mom, a Yonkou that started her NW piracy career as a mere child some 50-60 years ago, never had to defend against a top tier attack?

Also, she did Tank a buffed Zeus attack. She didn't just tank it, she neg-diffed it. 



Amol said:


> So Charlotte D. Kurisu is basically telling me that attacks that can *defeat* Kaido can't even scratch Big Mom.
> Yeah not touching that kind of wanking and fanboyism with ten foot pole. It is waste of my time.
> Big Mom is clearly invisible. /s



Kaido wasn't even in his prime against Oden. I thought that was clear. But Enma being able to hurt Big Mom due to its magical properties actually makes sense. But there's still no proof of that. I'd more readily accept that than Luffy suddenly can harm Big Mom with no proper build up.



MasterBeast said:


> What does mental trauma have to do with physical invulnerability?



Reread WCI arc and you'll find out.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Duhul10 (Apr 11, 2020)

girafarig said:


> what are kaido's feats?
> 
> i can only think of 1001 hostages, having a man far superior to him boiled in a blackmail kind of a situation, being saved by a 100 year old granny, taking an L from a crippled fish specialist before marineford and getting pwnd by garp+roger as a youth.
> 
> but hey, one man's L is another's W or something


One shoting luffy, a FM level character, while drunk ? This is enough of a feat given the fact that is yet to be replicated by someone else. We have seen others try that and fail.
Now, not to mention his hype, which is already astronomical: Oden, Law himself, the narrator( Oda ), everyone licking his ass bottom-up.


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## B Rabbit (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> I'm sorry. Would you have rather I flatly pointed how ridiculous and absurd your insinuation that Big Mom, a Yonkou that started her NW piracy career as a mere child some 50-60 years ago, never had to defend against a top tier attack?
> 
> Also, she did Tank a buffed Zeus attack. She didn't just tank it, she neg-diffed it.
> 
> ...


Again....please understand my point.

On panel. Big Mom seems like the tankiest because she never took damage from a top tier like Kaidou and Whitebeard has. So it seems like she is the tankiest of the Yonkou.

I never said she never has. I never said she wasn't the tankiest. Its just on panel we saw Kaidou and Whitebeard get hurt by other Yonkou. Big Mom never took an attack from a Yonkou on panel so we don't know how she tanks it.


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## Deleted member 58423 (Apr 11, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> One shoting luffy, a FM level character, while drunk ? This is enough of a feat given the fact that is yet to be replicated by someone else. We have seen others try that and fail.
> .



but he didn't kill luffy with that one shot? overall, whatever kaido does, he'll never be able to do as much damage to luffy as magellan did back in ID. i guess magellan>kaido.



> Now, not to mention his hype, which is already astronomical: Oden, Law himself, the narrator( Oda ), everyone licking his ass bottom-up



i see. well, i don't care about hype. shanks has been hyped too - and he has no feats and is just some little cripple benefitting from his WG connections (schooled laido, though). law is a trash gary stu fan-wank character, oden has the intelligence of a jellyfish - their 'opinion' hardly matters. oda himself has merely showed us kaido being saved by senior citizens and specializing in hostage shenanigans.

but you do you.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 11, 2020)

girafarig said:


> but he didn't kill luffy with that one shot? overall, whatever kaido does, he'll never be able to do as much damage to luffy as magellan did back in ID. i guess magellan>kaido.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude  Kaido humilliated him. You must be joking. The guy was drunk. A club was enough to make Luffy temporarilly flee this world. 

Oh, so the opinion of Luffy's ally, the opinion of a legend and the opinion of the author himself means shit to you. Good to know fella. Guess the only important opinion is yours.


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## Chrono (Apr 11, 2020)

Zoro's weak ass will faint from just being there. And will be colleteral damage.

The rest will get mauled.


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## Deleted member 58423 (Apr 11, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Dude  Kaido humilliated him. You must be joking. The guy was drunk. A club was enough to make Luffy temporarilly flee this world..



i'm not joking. i'm genuinely unimpressed. many people have clobbered luffy. but it means nothing if he still breathes - and he does. obviously this is just my opinion but no, i'm not trolling.



> Oh, so the opinion of Luffy's ally, the opinion of a legend



well, i kind of explained why i can't take their opinion seriously



> and the opinion of the author himself means shit to you.



i wouldn't say oda's opinion means nothing to me. it's oda, after all, who has shown as a Laido. a Laido who gets schooled by a cripple and needs a granny to save him from oden. sorry i'm not going all SUGEEEEEE over these...um... 'feats'.



> Guess the only important opinion is yours



you've exposed my secret!


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## Duhul10 (Apr 11, 2020)

girafarig said:


> i'm not joking. i'm genuinely unimpressed. many people have clobbered luffy. but it means nothing if he still breathes - and he does. obviously this is just my opinion but no, i'm not trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Denial is a sin, you've got to know that, believer or not.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Apr 11, 2020)

On paper, Kaido and Big Mom wipe the floor with all of these guys. Throw in Killer and Sanji and I dont see that the outcome changes.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 11, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> Again....please understand my point.
> 
> On panel. Big Mom seems like the tankiest because she never took damage from a top tier like Kaidou and Whitebeard has. So it seems like she is the tankiest of the Yonkou.
> 
> I never said she never has. I never said she wasn't the tankiest. Its just on panel we saw Kaidou and Whitebeard get hurt by other Yonkou. Big Mom never took an attack from a Yonkou on panel so we don't know how she tanks it.



She survived Zeus' attack tho.


*Spoiler*: __


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## A Optimistic (Apr 11, 2020)

I think Luffy and Zoro are able to injure both Big Mom and Kaidou. We're reaching the end of the series and the Straw Hats are already considered a Yonkou crew, and that was before they have acquired major power ups. Luffy got a haki powerup, Zoro got Emma, Sanji got the raid suit powerup, and the Straw Hats got Jinbei. They're a full fledged 10 man Yonkou crew at this point.

The entire point of Luffy's training was because he was not able to get past Kaido's scales. His entire 5 minute training arc would be completely invalidated if he still can't injure Kaido at this point, therefore I believe Luffy can hurt Kaido. Only one weapon in this world has proven to be able to injure Kaido, and that's Emma, and now Zoro's girlfriend has given him that weapon, therefore I believe Zoro can hurt Kaido, otherwise what was the point of Zoro acquiring Emma? 

Since I believe both Luffy and Zoro can hurt Kaido, then I believe they can also hurt Big Mom as well. While Big Mom's durability has always been emphasized, it hasn't been emphasized anymore than Kaido's durability has. Remember how shocked Kaido's men were at seeing him get injured by Oden? Or how weapons fail to ever kill him? Big Mom and Kaido have the same durability hype, if one can be injured then so can another.

That being said, just because Luffy and Zoro can hurt both Yonko now doesn't mean they can beat them, Kaido and Big Mom will defeat them both easily. That's where they're numerous allies such as Law, Kidd, the Samurai, Marco the Phoenix, Drake, and Marine Admirals come into play. 

Big Mom and Kaido can't defeat all those people and that is why they are both being defeated this arc. We are reaching the end of One Piece, and relics of the past such as Big Mom, Kaido, and Shanks will disappear and make way for the new generation. This is the age of Blackbeard and Luffy. Big Mom, Kaido, and Shanks time has come to an end.

Reactions: Like 5


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## BenI (Apr 11, 2020)

Scenario 3: they all gang up on kaido or big mom and the marines take on the other one


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## Deleted member 58423 (Apr 11, 2020)

scenario 4: meme eats kaido, then comes to her senses and commits sudoku over accidentally offing her first love. the end.


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## Etherborn (Apr 11, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> You're kidding right? She has the best tanking feats AND she's been hyped to have impenetrable skin. Fuck outta here with this "it's an interpretation" bullshit. If it's an interpretation it's Oda damn intention to be one. Kaido's can't die hype is already proved to be baseless hype as it's been proven he can be wounded by Luffy, and not just Enma.



She has no better tanking feats than Kaido. Every time Kaido has been injured it's been tanking an attack from a top tier like himself. Big Mom has never tanked such an attack on panel. In the case of Zeus it was Nami wielding a Yonko weapon, not tanking an attack from a Yonko, and in the case of Kaido we only saw them clashing evenly, weapon to weapon. Blocking or intercepting an attack is not the same as tanking it.

Also, you realize the main purpose of the Advanced Armament Haki Luffy has learned is to penetrate defenses that are otherwise impenetrable, right? He doesn't plan on brute forcing his way through Kaido's durability, he plans on bypassing his invulnerability entirely. That was the entire point. Impenetrable skin won't help Big Mom because he won't be attacking her skin; he'll be attacking what's behind it without actually damaging her from the outside.



Notice how the front of tree facing him is completely unharmed. His Haki bypassed it entirely.



> Also, that's horseshit, Big Mom is so obviously tankier than Whitebeard and even Kaido. And I am basing that on feats. They might have better offense, but she's obviously special when it comes to defense.



Whitebeard is one thing, since he was old, sick, and is now suffering from the timeskip's power creep. But Kaido has not been harmed by any high tiers either. In fact, at his current level of strength he hasn't been harmed by anyone as far as I can remember. Doesn't mean either of them are physically invulnerable. It just means we have yet to see them tank an attack that is capable of harming them, and this is very likely intentional.



> Her weakness is that she's emotionally unstable and that heavily nerfs her. I thought that was already established.



No character in this series is physically invulnerable, even at full strength. I have full confidence that other top tiers can harm her. We just haven't seen them try, save for Kaido who had an even exchange with her which was mutually called off.

If Luffy ends up harming her, it won't be an asspull, because he has already been foreshadowed to now have attacks that can bypass invulnerability. Hell, even Law has Gamma Knife which attacks people from the inside.

You're right that being able to hurt them isn't enough to defeat them though. You can expect that none of the members of the alliance will be able to defeat Big Mom or Kaido as they are now. They will probably need more improvement and significant gains even now before they are able to match them. Which is part of the reason why this thread doesn't achieve its purpose; it fails to account for that improvement.


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## Venom (Apr 11, 2020)

To make this fight fair I'd take Zoro out of the team
Maybe the Yonko Duo has a chance then

Reactions: Like 3


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 11, 2020)

Zoro kills kaidou. 

The rest gangbang big mom until Zoro is done with kaidou. Then Zoro kills big mom


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## Deleted member 58423 (Apr 11, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Zoro kills kaidou.
> 
> The rest gangbang big mom until Zoro is done with kaidou. Then Zoro kills big mom



and once zoro is done with the two yonko has-beens, the admiral and BBP "guests" will be similarly disposed of. we'll be thanking the grandmaster for minced red dog meat.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Duhul10 (Apr 11, 2020)

Venom said:


> To make this fight fair I'd take Zoro out of the team
> Maybe the Yonko Duo has a chance then


To make it fair, I would take the rest of the team out of the team and let Zoro do his magic.


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## Kamina. (Apr 12, 2020)

The best part is the zoro soloing posts are less trollish than the scenario presented in the first post


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 12, 2020)

I don't understand why It's so hard to accept that Linlin has the best Defensive Feats and Portrayal in the Series by a rather sufficient margin. Until Proven Otherwise, She cannot be hurt unless she has been rendered weak due to mental trauma. She has 60+ Years experience as a pirate and was a major member of the Rocks Pirates, has been in the New World for decades and has undoubtedly fought other top tiers yet she has no scars or marks. She is completely clean.  

What Kurisu is stating here is completely true. Unless Oda introduces a way to hurt Linlin, having anyone hurt her is utter PIS. And don't even mention advanced haki because she has fought others with likely far more experience and skill in using advanced armament yet theres nothing to show for it. She has not lost since God Valley that much is clear. 

Those saying that advanced COA should *obviously* be able to hurt her lack evidence. Luffy's goal against Kaido is to bypass his the steel like scales on his body thus, he needs this form of Haki. 

Linlin's Haki is not related to her physical body like it is for Kaido. Kaido's durability is solely a consequence of physical hardness that surrounds his body. The same does not apply to Linlin. 



I made this thread a few months ago breaking down why it's likely that her Durability is a result of her Haki. Haki is the only explanation as to why she goes from walking through the earth, eating her own soul powered and amped attacks and walking out without a scratch to bleeding from a knee scrape the moment she loses her mind. 

Oda has set Linlin up in such a manner that she can only be beaten through unconventional means. That is, through bullshit and PIS. In fact, Oda has conveniently forgotten that she has the power to summon her main homies to her at anytime. It's why Oda goes through so much shit to keep her out of the story and fights.

This is not Linlin wank but to suggest that @Charlotte D. Kurisu is bullshitting is laughable. By All accounts, Her Durability is above the likes of Kaido as long as her mental state is not one of vulnerability.


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## Beast (Apr 12, 2020)

BMs never tanked anything close to G4 attacks that Kaidou did without blocking. 

Prove me wrong.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> BMs never tanked anything close to G4 attacks that Kaidou did without blocking.
> 
> Prove me wrong.


Amped Zeus > El Thor> Kong Organ

And in that same panel, she literally forces Luffy out of G4 by infusing her haki with her DF. She isn't stupid like Kaido. She knows to block when attacks that are sufficient enough to move her are coming.


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## Beast (Apr 12, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Amped Zeus > El Thor> Kong Organ


That’s a lie. 
Try again.

Reactions: Like 3


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> That’s a lie.
> Try again.


You know what?


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## Beast (Apr 12, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> And in that same panel, she literally forces Luffy out of G4 by infusing her haki with her DF. She isn't stupid like Kaido. She knows to block when attacks that are sufficient enough to move her are coming.


its pretty simple, BMs never taken anything on the level Kaidou did without blocking, so your claims are baseless and only hold the weight of a characters statement, which isn’t anything to go by.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> its pretty simple, BMs never taken anything on the level Kaidou did without blocking, so your claims are baseless and only hold the weight of a characters statement, which isn’t anything to go by.


I repeat. 

Amped Zeus> El Thor > Kong Organ. 
Cracker Laughed off Kong Organ. 

Now, I can pull panels and show you that she used the blocking as a mechanism of ripping him out of Gear 4. She has taken stronger attacks without blocking.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2020)

> El Thor> Kong Organ


What ? 

El thor is preskip level damage


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## Beast (Apr 12, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> I repeat.
> 
> Amped Zeus> El Thor > Kong Organ.
> Cracker Laughed off Kong Organ.
> ...


And I’ve told you that is a complete lie. 
Zeus and el Thor are comparable, heck el Thor might be above Zeus own in the hands of Nami, Kong Organ is far above both in terms of damage and DC, where did you get that el Thor was doing more damage then G4 attacks? 
What we just make things up and just claim anything we want nowadays? 

Cracker never laughed anything off, he was 1HKO.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> And I’ve told you that is a complete lie.
> Zeus and el Thor are comparable, heck el Thor might be above Zeus own in the hands of Nami, Kong Organ is far above both in terms of damage and DC, where did you get that el Thor was doing more damage then G4 attacks?
> What we just make things up and just claim anything we want nowadays?
> 
> Cracker never laughed anything off, he was 1HKO.



Not going to be citing calcs but Zeus DC is above anything Enel Has that isn't Raigou.  The energy required to vaporize > Energy required to break something.


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## Beast (Apr 12, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Not going to be citing calcs but Zeus DC is above anything Enel Has that isn't Raigou.  The energy required to vaporize > Energy required to break something.


Okay, let’s get a serious... what does Zeus have on el Thor? It doesn’t compare in size nor DC, so how could you place it above El Thor? Bias maybe?

G4 attacks are far above just doing elemental damage, G4 attacks are city- island level, only Raizou is above G4 attacks.

And cracker was laughing because he wasn’t getting hit, as soon as he did get hit it was 1HKO, he didn’t tank anything for you to even bring up him laughing.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Okay, let’s get a serious... what does Zeus have on el Thor? It doesn’t compare in size nor DC, so how could you place it above El Thor? Bias maybe?
> 
> G4 attacks are far above just doing elemental damage, G4 attacks are city- island level, only Raizou is above G4 attacks.
> 
> And cracker was laughing because he wasn’t getting hit, as soon as he did get hit it was 1HKO, he didn’t tank anything for you to even bring up him laughing.


I don't like bringing calcs but I have to find the calac that shows that Zeus is  far more powerful than El thor.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 12, 2020)

@MasterBeast 



El Thor is Town Level
Amped Zeus is Island Level


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## Beast (Apr 12, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> @MasterBeast
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Large  town level or Island level depending on whether it is positive charge or not, I read some of the comments and it’s nothing more then a guessing game, with what ifs and dreams, they scaled it to island level + and didn’t call it an outlier because WB already has a country level feat, and thus amped Zeus was being scaled to BM using her children’s all the while doing calcs, yeah bro... not really selling it for me. 
They even had luffy at only mountain level.

The panels speak for themselves.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2020)

calcs


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Large  town level or Island level depending on whether it is positive charge or not, I read some of the comments and it’s nothing more then a guessing game, with what ifs and dreams, they scaled it to island level + and didn’t call it an outlier because WB already has a country level feat, and thus amped Zeus was being scaled to BM using her children’s all the while doing calcs, yeah bro... not really selling it for me.
> They even had luffy at only mountain level.
> 
> The panels speak for themselves.


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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 12, 2020)

I don’t think Big Mom will fight together with Kaidou in the canon fight as I find it pretty ridiculous for this group to be able to take down 2 Yonkous. Do you expect Kidd+Law to somehow be stronger than than Big Mom? The only way I see both of them losing together is if SHs get even more help with Marco and others while Kaidou’s crew was somehow defeated easily. 

Honestly, Kaidou+Big Mom should be able to low diff this group, especially with the restrictions set. The second scenario is mid diff. Kidd has no reaction feats to keep up with someone that blitzed Luffy hell none of them, barring future sight Luffy, have feats to suggest that Kaidou doesn’t blitz. And they’re getting damn near 1shot killed by any attack that lands from Big Mom or Kaidou. Kaidou already showed strength to 1-shot YC1-level bloodlusted Luffy, an endurance beast, and also KO Oden even if Oden was cheap shotted. An amnesiac Big Mom defeated Queen with a 2 piece.


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## Fujitora (Apr 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I’ll see you at the end of the arc; stay salty bro


The same kidd that with help got shrekd by kaido will now win against big mom with law's help in like a week or two in universe time? How does that make sense to you? Do you think we should all throw logic out of the window and just accept that they now can for whatever reason?



girafarig said:


> i'm not joking. i'm genuinely unimpressed. many people have clobbered luffy. but it means nothing if he still breathes - and he does. obviously this is just my opinion but no, i'm not trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One is complete headcanon, the other has been debunked as she interevened of her own will. So he didnt need her per se, and cmon. Stop using the hostage thing bb, it is again her decision to do so.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deleted member 58423 (Apr 12, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> One is complete headcanon, the other has been debunked as she interevened of her own will. So he didnt need her per se, and cmon. Stop using the hostage thing bb, it is again her decision to do so.



if you think shanks didn't school kaido then please tell us how he 'stopped' him from antagonizing the WG in marineford. it's true we don't really know what happened between these two (though i have a theory ...) but how DO you explain kaido staying put?

i didn't say it wasn't the granny's decision to interfere. it was. i said kaido needed her help to get away from oden unharmed - it just means i think oden was a very strong man capable of hurting kaido.

i'm not sure any of this would be on topic here, though...


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> The same kidd that with help got shrekd by kaido will now win against big mom with law's help in like a week or two in universe time? How does that make sense to you? Do you think we should all throw logic out of the window and just accept that they now can for whatever reason?


When did Kidd get wrecked by Kaidou with help? Do you mean when Apoo betrayed him so actually Kaidou had help not Kid? 

It makes sense to me because Hawkins obviously thought Kidd, Appoo, and himself had  decent shot at beating Kaidou; otherwise he wouldn’t have tried to face Kaidou prior to Apoo betraying them. 

Law proved he is significantly > Hawkins; and likely > Appoo; Kidd likely got stronger since back then; and now has superior help against a Big Mom who is likely missing her homies and probably <= Kaidou; and on top of that is prone to getting even weaker due to her hunger and mental state, increasing their chances further. Combine this with the fact that Hawkins is likely to side with them again (and X Drake may as well); and the other SN taking down the BM Pirates whole SH and Scabberds face Kaidou /Orochi and Beast Pirates makes a shit ton of sense; it’s Luffy’a allies vs Kaidous


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## Dellinger (Apr 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> When did Kidd get wrecked by Kaidou with help? Do you mean when Apoo betrayed him so actually Kaidou had help not Kid?
> 
> It makes sense to me because Hawkins obviously thought Kidd, Appoo, and himself had  decent shot at beating Kaidou; otherwise he wouldn’t have tried to face Kaidou prior to Apoo betraying them.
> 
> Law proved he is significantly > Hawkins; and likely > Appoo; Kidd likely got stronger since back then; and now has superior help against a Big Mom who is likely missing her homies and probably <= Kaidou; and on top of that is prone to getting even weaker due to her hunger and mental state, increasing their chances further. Combine this with the fact that Hawkins is likely to side with them again (and X Drake may as well); and the other SN taking down the BM Pirates whole SH and Scabberds face Kaidou /Orochi and Beast Pirates makes a shit ton of sense; it’s Luffy’a allies vs Kaidous



Why are you still insisting that Hawkins thought they had a chance ? He never said that. Not to mention that also Law never proved he's sgnificantly stronger than Hawkins. They had an equal exchange at the beginning and Law only beat him later because someone helped him. 

Big Mom also won't be missing any homies. By the time of the battle she'll have all of them. Not like she needs them she she just bitch slapped Queen who is stronger than Kid and Law without any homie. But let's ignore that so we can push our headcanon forward. 

Like it's pretty clear to me either you are stupid or you are reading some fanon story. Nothing can explain this lack of reading comprehension.


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## Dellinger (Apr 12, 2020)

A Optimistic said:


> I think Luffy and Zoro are able to injure both Big Mom and Kaidou. We're reaching the end of the series and the Straw Hats are already considered a Yonkou crew, and that was before they have acquired major power ups. Luffy got a haki powerup, Zoro got Emma, Sanji got the raid suit powerup, and the Straw Hats got Jinbei. They're a full fledged 10 man Yonkou crew at this point.
> 
> The entire point of Luffy's training was because he was not able to get past Kaido's scales. His entire 5 minute training arc would be completely invalidated if he still can't injure Kaido at this point, therefore I believe Luffy can hurt Kaido. Only one weapon in this world has proven to be able to injure Kaido, and that's Emma, and now Zoro's girlfriend has given him that weapon, therefore I believe Zoro can hurt Kaido, otherwise what was the point of Zoro acquiring Emma?
> 
> ...



You guys really don't know how to read this series. Kaido and Big Mom are stupidly superior to Luffy and Co and they haven't even showed 50% of their true strength. Kaido beat Luffy with a single smack in base. No Haki, no shit. Dude has a hybrid form and awakening. For every power up Luffy has, Kaido has one too. But somehow it gets completely ignored. Both Kaido and Mom, these 2 fuckers have been fighting without using Haki which is insane.


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## Yagami1211 (Apr 12, 2020)

I think it's all about making a opening for Law to bisect both of them.


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## Fujitora (Apr 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> When did Kidd get wrecked by Kaidou with help? Do you mean when Apoo betrayed him so actually Kaidou had help not Kid?
> 
> It makes sense to me because Hawkins obviously thought Kidd, Appoo, and himself had  decent shot at beating Kaidou; otherwise he wouldn’t have tried to face Kaidou prior to Apoo betraying them.
> 
> Law proved he is significantly > Hawkins; and likely > Appoo; Kidd likely got stronger since back then; and now has superior help against a Big Mom who is likely missing her homies and probably <= Kaidou; and on top of that is prone to getting even weaker due to her hunger and mental state, increasing their chances further. Combine this with the fact that Hawkins is likely to side with them again (and X Drake may as well); and the other SN taking down the BM Pirates whole SH and Scabberds face Kaidou /Orochi and Beast Pirates makes a shit ton of sense; it’s Luffy’a allies vs Kaidous


wtf do you mean kaido had help? Hawkins never tried to face kaido wtf are you talking about? He did the same reading of odds he did against kizaru and surrendered, and his % readings were higher than when he did against kizaru. Turrin, if you wanna be taken seriously, dont troll.



girafarig said:


> if you think shanks didn't school kaido then please tell us how he 'stopped' him from antagonizing the WG in marineford. it's true we don't really know what happened between these two (though i have a theory ...) but how DO you explain kaido staying put?
> 
> i didn't say it wasn't the granny's decision to interfere. it was. i said kaido needed her help to get away from oden unharmed - it just means i think oden was a very strong man capable of hurting kaido.
> 
> i'm not sure any of this would be on topic here, though...


We'll have to wait and see, shanks and crew came to MF unscathed. Kaido has been shown to be a very very moody drunk,he also goes around solo. There are a lot of factors. First time Shanks went to see WB he brought sake. Whats telling us he didnt do just that? Fact is we dont know, so you cant go around saying stuff like that because it discredits you as a poster.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 12, 2020)

Umm. A lot of hot takes in here.

Firstly, Kaido's durability hype dwarfs that of Linlin's.

Kaido jumps off from 10k meters in the air and as a result gets a headache


Linlin falling from a castle results in everyone believing the BMP are going to end

Linlin herself was worried due to the fact that she was falling down.
Brulee, the eight daughter and the nineteenth child of Linlin, showed concern for Linlin as well.

She knows of Linlin's durability, and has known it her entire life, and was worried when the castle crumbled, and was explicitly expressing her concern for Linlin.

Moreover, Zeus, a homie infused with Linlin's soul, rushed over to save Linlin from the fall, and alleviate the impact of the fall.

Another comparison.

Kaido takes an onslaught of G4 attacks without haki and ends up disappointed

Linlin leans forward putting her body-weight in use, uses hardening, and it still makes her arm rattle after only one G4 attack

I repeat, Linlin, on her own accord, used hardening, used her immense body weight, leaned forward thus putting the said body weight in use to produce a counter force to the force of WCI Luffy's punch and her arm rattled. So, Linlin used counter force and another layer of protection on top of the counter force to match Luffy's punch, and her arm rattled still. So Linlin used her own physical force and a layer of haki and leaned forward in a more advantageous position to have her arm rattle from a punch from WCI Luffy. Linlin herself felt the need to pad this so called godlike durability with haki and a counterforce. She didn't just stand there like Kaido, she moved, leaned in, raised her elbow, thus creating an opposing force, by using her body, her body weight, and haki. That shows that if an attack has enough potency behind it it hurts Linlin, even when she defends, with haki on top.

The authorial intent is quite clear when it comes to whose durability is harder to pass. Whatever hurts Kaido definitely hurts Linlin.

Moving on.

It is a fact that Linlin got her head cracked by Queen. A literal fact.

The sound effect of Queen smashing Linlin's head is the same as Zoro nearly breaking Miss Monday's skull in two.

メキメキ - cracking


*Spoiler*: __ 







Oda uses that sfx for cracking as indicated above.

Cherry on top, in the official translation it is translated exactly like the situation with Sanji

*Spoiler*: __ 








Before someone makes a frivolous comment, no Oda doesn't always show cracked bones.

*Spoiler*: __ 








As you can see above, Sanji is walking with broken bones, whilst Linlin is out.

Linlin was later seen eating

which helped her restore her health and bones, like Luffy and Brooke did



This notion that Linlin cannot be hurt is utterly wrong and ridiculous, and rebutted by the manga itself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Xebec (Apr 12, 2020)

either yonko solo


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> wtf do you mean kaido had help? Hawkins never tried to face kaido wtf are you talking about? He did the same reading of odds he did against kizaru and surrendered, and his % readings were higher than when he did against kizaru. Turrin, if you wanna be taken seriously, dont troll.


Lol what are you talking about; Apoo, Hawkins, and Kidd literally face Kaidou; Hawkins even says at that time they were going to face him, but Apoo betrayed them, at which point their chances dropped to 0 (implying before the betrayal their chances were good enough that Hawkins was willing to try their hand against Kaidou). Then Hawkins cuck’d down. This left Kidd facing Kaidou and Appoo alone; when he got beaten down.

You saying Kaidou beat Kidd with backup is the troll.

Please not I’m not saying Kidd could have solo’d Kaidou; I’m just saying it’s absolutely hilarious that you tried to pass this off as Kidd having help when Kaidou did.


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## Fujitora (Apr 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Lol what are you talking about; Apoo, Hawkins, and Kidd literally face Kaidou; Hawkins even says at that time they were going to face him, but Apoo betrayed them, at which point their chances dropped to 0 (implying before the betrayal their chances were good enough that Hawkins was willing to try their hand against Kaidou). Then Hawkins cuck’d down. This left Kidd facing Kaidou and Appoo alone; when he got beaten down.
> 
> You saying Kaidou beat Kidd with backup is the troll.
> 
> Please not I’m not saying Kidd could have solo’d Kaidou; I’m just saying it’s absolutely hilarious that you tried to pass this off as Kidd having help when Kaidou did.


No, he said when he faced kaido he saw his odds. Not because fucking apoo betrayed them.
I remember posting you the exact panel and you still go on with that shit, yes kidd had help in the name of killer. Apoo betrayed them and ducking Hawkins did nothing and surrendered. The rest is pure bullshit. So stop fucking trolling.


He was specifically talking about their chances against kaido and then goes on to say that killer and kidd went against him till they dropped. No mention of apoo fighting then, it only says that he betrayed by revealing their location. Then Hawkins goes on to say that yonko are monsters beyond their imagination. Again no mention of apoo. So your weird agenda that you’re trying to push here has to stop. No one cares about your trolling, if you can’t have proper discussion and use actual arguments. Get out.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> No, he said when he faced kaido he saw his odds. Not because fucking apoo betrayed them.
> I remember posting you the exact panel and you still go on with that shit, yes kidd had help in the name of killer. Apoo betrayed them and ducking Hawkins did nothing and surrendered. The rest is pure bullshit. So stop fucking trolling.


Yeah because you are wrong.

He says at ‘that time’ their chance was 0%. ‘That time’ was after Apoo betrayed them. If their chances were 0% to begin with Hawkins would have never tried to face Kaidou In first place. Evident by the fact that once their chances became 0% he cuck’d down and didn’t try to fight.

Kidd has help from Killer lol; where was Killer when Kidd was starring Kaidou and Apoo (who betrayed him down)?


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## Fujitora (Apr 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah because you are wrong.
> 
> He says at ‘that time’ their chance was 0%. ‘That time’ was after Apoo betrayed them. If their chances were 0% to begin with Hawk would have never tried to face Kaidou In first place. Evident by the fact that once their chances became 0% he cuck’d down and didn’t try to fight.
> 
> Kidd has help from Killer lol; where was Killer when Kidd was starring Kaidou and Apoo (who betrayed him down)?


Except he never tried to face him, he was there to go after shanks who he never saw and tried to see his odds against. Then kaido dropped and tried to recruit them, that’s when Hawkins saw his odds. God you’re annoying, as if fucking apoo would have added anything significant. Luffy got one hit koed, luffy who is a good deal stronger than law. Whom beat Hawkins pretty decisively. His odds were always 0%


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Except he never tried to face him, he was there to go after shanks who he never saw and tried to see his odds against. Then kaido dropped and tried to recruit them, that’s when Hawkins saw his odds. God you’re annoying, as if fucking apoo would have added anything significant. Luffy got one hit koed, luffy who is a good deal stronger than law. Whom beat Hawkins pretty decisively. His odds were always 0%


Yes they formed an alliance to go after Shanks. Kaidou then appeared and they prepared to face him (you see the three getting ready to fight) but It’s revealed Apoo betrayed them; at ‘that time’ (after Apoo betrayal) their odds dropped to zero. This strongly implies that before the betrayal Hawkins thought they had a chance against Kaidou (and likely Shanks). Yes Killer faced Kaidou too, but was it at the same time as Kidd or did Kidd loose and then Killer tried to attack Kaidou and also lost (seems likely as it’s Kidd / Apoo/ Hawkins who were standing against Kaidou when he first appears not Killer). We know for a fact Kaidou also had Apoo on his side (not that he needed, but it’s just ridiculous that your being up Killer, but ignoring Apoo was on Kaidou’s side).

Your basically saying Hawkins was ready to fight Shanks and then Kaidou (two Yonko) but never ran his cards Once to see if his Odds were good, prior to Apoo betraying him. That’s ridiculous.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2020)

@OniKaido 

Basically your telling me Hawkins (who runs his cards on everything) thought their alliance could have a shot to take Shanks, but a likely stronger Kidd, with a stronger ally Law; can’t take on a nerfed BM. Come on now this is silly as fuck


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## Xebec (Apr 12, 2020)

Yagami1211 said:


> I think it's all about making a opening for Law to bisect both of them.


can't cut through their haki


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2020)

Die-Hardman said:


> can't cut through their haki


just cut the spot on the body where they dont have haki

neither of them has used FBH like Vergo, if they even can


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## Fujitora (Apr 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @OniKaido
> 
> Basically your telling me Hawkins (who runs his cards on everything) thought their alliance could have a shot to take Shanks, but a likely stronger Kidd, with a stronger ally Law; can’t take on a nerfed BM. Come on now this is silly as fuck


He NEVER MET SHANKS, everytime he makes his prediction he is in contact with said threat. ERGO when he met luffy he told him his odds, when he met kizaru he read his odds. And when he met KAIDO, he read his odds as well. How hard is that to understand mate?


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## Fujitora (Apr 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes they formed an alliance to go after Shanks. Kaidou then appeared and they prepared to face him (you see the three getting ready to fight) but It’s revealed Apoo betrayed them; at ‘that time’ (after Apoo betrayal) their odds dropped to zero. This strongly implies that before the betrayal Hawkins thought they had a chance against Kaidou (and likely Shanks). Yes Killer faced Kaidou too, but was it at the same time as Kidd or did Kidd loose and then Killer tried to attack Kaidou and also lost (seems likely as it’s Kidd / Apoo/ Hawkins who were standing against Kaidou when he first appears not Killer). We know for a fact Kaidou also had Apoo on his side (not that he needed, but it’s just ridiculous that your being up Killer, but ignoring Apoo was on Kaidou’s side).
> 
> Your basically saying Hawkins was ready to fight Shanks and then Kaidou (two Yonko) but never ran his cards Once to see if his Odds were good, prior to Apoo betraying him. That’s ridiculous.


No apoo already betrayed them, there was no at that time. Apoo did nothing, hawkins when kaido dropped read their odds. Saw how low they were and 0% chance to win, then surrendered. Kidd and killer didnt and they ''fought'' kaido. You're the only one trying to spin it in a way that doesnt exist.


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Apr 13, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> I repeat.
> 
> Amped Zeus> El Thor > Kong Organ.
> Cracker Laughed off Kong Organ.
> ...



...so Sanji in Skypeia could take a Kong Organ to the face and still stand? So Post-TS Sanji could probably shrug off a Kong Organ...? I'm no Luffy wanker, but I highly doubt that.


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## Corax (Apr 13, 2020)

As for chances Law said that they had 30% vs Kaido's crew (SH+Law pirates). So likely Hawkings saw their chances vs Shanks and crew at least the same or may be even more. But again this is only characters opinion. Personally I doubt that Kidd+Hawk+Apoo+Killer have 30-50% vs Benn+Shanks+Lucky+Yasopp. But again may be Oda sees it in another light.


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## GucciBandana (Apr 13, 2020)

Yonko duo wins this one.
however the 4 SN can take down either one of the 2 Yonkous.


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## A Optimistic (Apr 13, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> You guys really don't know how to read this series. Kaido and Big Mom are stupidly superior to Luffy and Co and they haven't even showed 50% of their true strength. Kaido beat Luffy with a single smack in base. No Haki, no shit. Dude has a hybrid form and awakening. For every power up Luffy has, Kaido has one too. But somehow it gets completely ignored. Both Kaido and Mom, these 2 fuckers have been fighting without using Haki which is insane.



You actually think the antagonists are going to prevail over Luffy and co.? 

If Oda wants Big Mom/Kaido to lose, they're gonna lose. Whether you like it or not bro.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 13, 2020)

A Optimistic said:


> You actually think the antagonist is going to prevail?
> 
> If Oda wants Big Mom/Kaido to lose, they're gonna lose. Whether you like it or not bro.


Your name suits your post 
In order for Oda to make those two lose especially if they do it at the same time he will have to retcon and asspull lots of things, given the fact that he licked the asses of both those two to heaven and back. I'm extremely curious to see how this arc is going to end. Only 5 years to go

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> No apoo already betrayed them, there was no at that time. Apoo did nothing, hawkins when kaido dropped read their odds. Saw how low they were and 0% chance to win, then surrendered. Kidd and killer didnt and they ''fought'' kaido. You're the only one trying to spin it in a way that doesnt exist.


No dude Kaidou dropped; they stood together against Kaidoi; and then Apoo betrayed them; and then Hawkins read their odds, and it was 0 after Apoo betrayed them



OniKaido said:


> He NEVER MET SHANKS, everytime he makes his prediction he is in contact with said threat. ERGO when he met luffy he told him his odds, when he met kizaru he read his odds. And when he met KAIDO, he read his odds as well. How hard is that to understand mate?


Yeah when he met Luffy he told Luffy his odds for success; yet he met Kidd and Apoo and didn’t run the odds on the success of their alliance against Shanks. Just stop.


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## Dellinger (Apr 13, 2020)

A Optimistic said:


> You actually think the antagonists are going to prevail over Luffy and co.?
> 
> If Oda wants Big Mom/Kaido to lose, they're gonna lose. Whether you like it or not bro.


I didn’t say they will win. The main reason they will lose though will be because they will have a fall down. They’ve got too big of egos for this to work out. They’ll fight each other

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Apr 13, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Your name suits your post
> In order for Oda to make those two lose especially if they do it at the same time he will have to retcon and asspull lots of things, given the fact that he licked the asses of both those two to heaven and back. I'm extremely curious to see how this arc is going to end. Only 5 years to go





Dellinger said:


> I didn’t say they will win. The main reason they will lose though will be because they will have a fall down. They’ve got too big of egos for this to work out. They’ll fight each other



We'll see who's correct then, gentlemen.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Your name suits your post
> In order for Oda to make those two lose especially if they do it at the same time he will have to retcon and asspull lots of things, given the fact that he licked the asses of both those two to heaven and back. I'm extremely curious to see how this arc is going to end. Only 5 years to go


What Retcon or asspull would Oda have to pull?

Luffy issue against Kaidou was his durability; Luffy trained to master an ability the manga explains can ignore this durability by attacking Kaidou internally. Therefore Luffy being a major threat to Kaidou fits perfectly with what the story has shown so far. Heck even beyond Luffy having a counter to Kaidou;  Oda even and Zoro learn a counter to by mastering Emma which has canonically been shown able to cut through Kaidou. So there are two characters in play that have a counter to Kaidou. Your assuming Luffy & Zoro can’t do it because of your own personal ‘power levels’ not what the story has shown and told us.

And in the case of Big Mom. We have both Law and Kidd who could take her on. Kidd we don’t know how strong he is, so there is no way you can say that Kidd being a threat to Big Mom is impossible, as we don’t know his PL. But we do know Hawkins thought Kidd/Apoo/Himself could have a shot against Shanks & possible Kaidou. We also know Big Mom is missing homies and can potentially get weakened even more as we saw with WCI. We also know Law and Kidd may have grown stronger since the start of the arc; and it’s possible Hawkins, XDrake, could join forces with them against BM Pirates. Even Apoo could have a change of heart and join them. There is certainly enough allies Super Nova here where they could ether beat Big Mom Pirates while Luffy faces Kaidou. Or they could hold off Kaidou giving Luffy the chance to beat BM; and then face Kaidou afterwards.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> What Retcon or asspull would Oda have to pull?
> 
> Luffy issue against Kaidou was his durability; Luffy trained to master an ability the manga explains can ignore this durability by attacking Kaidou internally. Therefore Luffy being a major threat to Kaidou fits perfectly with what the story has shown so far. Heck even beyond Luffy having a counter to Kaidou;  Oda even and Zoro learn a counter to by mastering Emma which has canonically been shown able to cut through Kaidou. So there are two characters in play that have a counter to Kaidou. Your assuming Luffy & Zoro can’t do it because of your own personal ‘power levels’ not what the story has shown and told us.
> 
> And in the case of Big Mom. We have both Law and Kidd who could take her on. Kidd we don’t know how strong he is, so there is no way you can say that Kidd being a threat to Big Mom is impossible, as we don’t know his PL. But we do know Hawkins thought Kidd/Apoo/Himself could have a shot against Shanks & possible Kaidou. We also know Big Mom is missing homies and can potentially get weakened even more as we saw with WCI. We also know Law and Kidd may have grown stronger since the start of the arc; and it’s possible Hawkins, XDrake, could join forces with them against BM Pirates. Even Apoo could have a change of heart and join them. There is certainly enough allies Super Nova here where they could ether beat Big Mom Pirates while Luffy faces Kaidou. Or they could hold off Kaidou giving Luffy the chance to beat BM; and then face Kaidou afterwards.


There is still no reason to believe any of them can tank Kaido's hits. Kaido's club is very capable of one-shotting each and every one of them. Jeesh, not even to mention his hybrid form which has not even been shown yet.
As for BM, again no proof they can hurt her aside from your assumptions.
The conclusion, we all know that G4 is the biggest gun in the team's pocket: enma or not ( the sword damaged a non-prime Kaido, while wielded by a legendary swordsman, something zoro is not yet ). We do know how G4 did against both the Yonko. Yeah, Luffy's new trick is nice, but we are yet to see him damage someone notable with it, therefore it is featless until then.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> There is still no reason to believe any of them can tank Kaido's hits. Kaido's club is very capable of one-shotting each and every one of them. Jeesh, not even to mention his hybrid form which has not even been shown yet.
> As for BM, again no proof they can hurt her aside from your assumptions.
> The conclusion, we all know that G4 is the biggest gun in the team's pocket: enma or not ( the sword damaged a non-prime Kaido, while wielded by a legendary swordsman, something zoro is not yet ). We do know how G4 did against both the Yonko. Yeah, Luffy's new trick is nice, but we are yet to see him damage someone notable with it, therefore it is featless until then.


1- We were directly shown that someone can beat Kaidou even if they can’t take a direct hit from his Mace Attack. Oden literally has Kaidou defeated; and then got distracted and took a hit from Kaidou being one shot. Additionally Luffy / Zoro training would increase their Haki and Physical capabilities, so them being more durable and able to take a hit from Kaidou is possible. So this is a pretty weak argument against their ability to threaten and beat Kaidou.


2-  Sure Kaidou hybrid form hasn’t been shown yet; but Luffy never used his Advanced G4 Forms on Kaidou ether; like Snakeman, King Kong, and likely a new one for CoA, so he’s got his own ascended stuff too. Zoro also has a chance of ascended stuff if he turns Emma black by the time he faces Kaidou, which has already been foreshadowed by the plot.

3- Of course Luffy and Zoro are fearless right now; that doesn’t mean it will be an asspull when they start damaging and becoming a real threat to Kaidou. The entire wano training sub plot was to explain how this would happen, so saying now it will take an asspull is simply not true


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## Duhul10 (Apr 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- We were directly shown that someone can beat Kaidou even if they can’t take a direct hit from his Mace Attack. Oden literally has Kaidou defeated; and then got distracted and took a hit from Kaidou being one shot. Additionally Luffy / Zoro training would increase their Haki and Physical capabilities, so them being more durable and able to take a hit from Kaidou is possible. So this is a pretty weak argument against their ability to threaten and beat Kaidou.
> 
> 
> 2-  Sure Kaidou hybrid form hasn’t been shown yet; but Luffy never used his Advanced G4 Forms on Kaidou ether; like Snakeman, King Kong, and likely a new one for CoA, so he’s got his own ascended stuff too. Zoro also has a chance of ascended stuff if he turns Emma black by the time he faces Kaidou, which has already been foreshadowed by the plot.
> ...


1. Kaido did not lose. After the slash he got up immediately and took Oden out with one hit. What one could argue is that Oden had the upper hand after the slash, which is most likely true. Anyway, your point was based on the fact that Oden could not take a hit from that club. That is most likely false, as Oden fell from one club after most likely recieving others. OR (which is another scenario that does not prove your point) one could argue that Oden did not even face Kaido's human form in that fight, which perfectly suits individual fights; Kaido was using his dragon form because it helped him see all enemies and it was better suited for multiple enemies.

As for your second point, it is also based on a false hypoteshis, given the fact that you assume the final form of a yonko ( who is hyped to be the most powerful being in current OP )is equal to a slightly faster form of G4, the same G4 that was humilliated by kaido's base drunk form.

The 3rd point doesn't really make the point of the discussion

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> 1. Kaido did not lose. After the slash he got up immediately and took Oden out with one hit. What one could argue is that Oden had the upper hand after the slash, which is most likely true. Anyway, your point was based on the fact that Oden could not take a hit from that club. That is most likely false, as Oden fell from one club after most likely recieving others. OR (which is another scenario that does not prove your point) one could argue that Oden did not even face Kaido's human form in that fight, which perfectly suits individual fights; Kaido was using his dragon form because it helped him see all enemies and it was better suited for multiple enemies.
> 
> As for your second point, it is also based on a false hypoteshis, given the fact that you assume the final form of a yonko ( who is hyped to be the most powerful being in current OP )is equal to a slightly faster form of G4, the same G4 that was humilliated by kaido's base drunk form.
> 
> The 3rd point doesn't really make the point of the discussion


1- Come on man Dragon form is > Human form as it’s buffed by Zoan Fruit; Oden also faced Kaidou in his human form previously and fought evenly with him then as well. Oden was > Kaidou at the time and nothing indicates he could take a direct hit from his mace. He was able to fight him as he blocked Kaidou mace with his sword. Which is exactly what Zoro would do; and Luffy would Block with CoA Flow.

2- No I’m assuming that like Lucci Kaidou will probably have multiple Zoan Forms that he uses for different purposes and these will be matched by Luffy multiple G4 Variants; combined with Advanced CoO and Advanced CoA. Kaidou never took on Advanced CoO and Snakeman; Katakuri slapped G4 form Kaidou took on too; it’s not that big of an accomplishment.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Come on man Dragon form is > Human form as it’s buffed by Zoan Fruit; Oden also faced Kaidou in his human form previously and fought evenly with him then as well. Oden was > Kaidou at the time and nothing indicates he could take a direct hit from his mace. He was able to fight him as he blocked Kaidou mace with his sword. Which is exactly what Zoro would do; and Luffy would Block with CoA Flow.
> 
> 2- No I’m assuming that like Lucci Kaidou will probably have multiple Zoan Forms that he uses for different purposes and these will be matched by Luffy multiple G4 Variants; combined with Advanced CoO and Advanced CoA. Kaidou never took on Advanced CoO and Snakeman; Katakuri slapped G4 form Kaidou took on too; it’s not that big of an accomplishment.


Guess we will have to wait and see. We'll have to agree to disagree on the human-dragon form dillema, mostly because I believe one brings AOE, while the other brings precision and concentrated force.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Guess we will have to wait and see. We'll have to agree to disagree on the human-dragon form dillema, mostly because I believe one brings AOE, while the other brings precision and concentrated force.


Regardless of whether we disagree on that the intention of Oden > Kaidou back the is very clear; and Oden being able to table a direct hit from Kaidou is not a thing in the manga. 

But yes we will wait and see


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## Duhul10 (Apr 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Regardless of whether we disagree on that the intention of Oden > Kaidou back the is very clear; and Oden being able to table a direct hit from Kaidou is not a thing in the manga.
> 
> But yes we will wait and see


But you must understand that a cut did not equal a win in that instance given the fact that Kaido got up immediately and hit Oden so hard. What Oden had at that moment, was the upper hand. Did Marco beat Kizaru when he pushed him as far as he did ? Did Apoo beat Kizaru when he caught him with that attack ? There are instances in the manga where people get hit or cut clean, having nothing to do with weakness towards the enemy.
Now, when it comes to Oden, at that point in time, was in the same ballpark with Kaido; therefore, him managing to cut Kaido meant he gained the upperhand at that point. Kaido did not lose. If a cut, or a hit means a loss, then many people have lost before winning.

What could have happened in that fight, we do not know. If Kaido would not have got up as fast as he did, yes, I would have said, he was definitely gone, but the guy got up in two panels and ko'd Oden.
Oden definitely looked better in the end, of course, yet in no way was he " definitely > " than Kaido.
This is simply an opinion of course, just as yours.
And again, even Kaido vs Luffy shows us which form is superior in a 1 vs 1.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fujitora (Apr 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No dude Kaidou dropped; they stood together against Kaidoi; and then Apoo betrayed them; and then Hawkins read their odds, and it was 0 after Apoo betrayed them
> 
> 
> Yeah when he met Luffy he told Luffy his odds for success; yet he met Kidd and Apoo and didn’t run the odds on the success of their alliance against Shanks. Just stop.


That’s not what fucking happened mate, the panel clearly says what happened, I’m done talking to you. Keep on with your fanfic. I guess apoo is a huge threat now that with him betraying their odds went to 0 huh? Never mind the fact that Hawkins said they fought kaido only. Not fuckin apoo



Duhul10 said:


> But you must understand that a cut did not equal a win in that instance given the fact that Kaido got up immediately and hit Oden so hard. What Oden had at that moment, was the upper hand. Did Marco beat Kizaru when he pushed him as far as he did ? Did Apoo beat Kizaru when he caught him with that attack ? There are instances in the manga where people get hit or cut clean, having nothing to do with weakness towards the enemy.
> Now, when it comes to Oden, at that point in time, was in the same ballpark with Kaido; therefore, him managing to cut Kaido meant he gained the upperhand at that point. Kaido did not lose. If a cut, or a hit means a loss, then many people have lost before winning.
> 
> What could have happened in that fight, we do not know. If Kaido would not have got up as fast as he did, yes, I would have said, he was definitely gone, but the guy got up in two panels and ko'd Oden.
> ...


He wasn’t gone, oden specifically was saying never come back to wano, he knew he couldn’t kill him. Matter of fact oda didn’t portray anything because in the castle, ENRAGED oden couldn’t get past kaido at all for a good while while orochi was hiding in that barrier. People spinning a fairy tale about how Oden> Kaido back then makes no sense because it didn’t exist. Oden wounded him in his dragon form, that’s it. But it was clearly shown they were even if not kaido a bit superior in the castle.

It’s been established that his dragon form is his weakest form. I mean he was getting knocked around by fucking luffy for gods sake. He has no means to block shit in that form. So no oden was not and never was>. Kaido. His warryness of him trying to kill him in his sleep and or while drunk. Him writting that letter to toki. Those are both things done from a man who wasn’t sure of his victory against him.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> That’s not what fucking happened mate, the panel clearly says what happened, I’m done talking to you. Keep on with your fanfic. I guess apoo is a huge threat now that with him betraying their odds went to 0 huh? Never mind the fact that Hawkins said they fought kaido only. Not fuckin apoo


So you impression of what happens is Apoo betrayed them and then they still stood together with Apoo against Kaidou lol. What? 

Yes the panel tells us what happened; after Apii betrayed them is when Hawkins read their odds


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## Fujitora (Apr 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> So you impression of what happens is Apoo betrayed them and then they still stood together with Apoo against Kaidou lol. What?
> 
> Yes the panel tells us what happened; after Apii betrayed them is when Hawkins read their odds


Hawkins never said when he read his odds, all he said is apoo betrayed them telling kaido their location. Dude dropped. Offered them to be his subordinates then Hawkins read their odds. You gotta be kidding me man. Stop twisting shit to fit your narrative. I’m just telling you what thee panels are saying.

Oh and you can funny rate me all you want. I am right, because I use manga panels and not fucking headcanon like you’re doing to say that Oden>kaido when it was never once said in manga.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Hawkins never said when he read his odds, all he said is apoo betrayed them telling kaido their location. Dude dropped. Offered them to be his subordinates then Hawkins read their odds. You gotta be kidding me man. Stop twisting shit to fit your narrative. I’m just telling you what thee panels are saying.
> 
> Oh and you can funny rate me all you want. I am right, because I use manga panels and not fucking headcanon like you’re doing to say that Oden>kaido when it was never once said in manga.


If  “apoo betrayed them telling kaido their location”

Then Appo betrayed them by the time Kaidou appeared front of them

Hawkin read his cards at that time (when Kaidou appeared and “Offered them to be his subordinates“)

= He read the cards after Appoo betrayed them....

How are you not understanding this very simple concept

—-

It wasn’t said because Oden was directly shown slapping Kaidou


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## Fujitora (Apr 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> If  “apoo betrayed them telling kaido their location”
> 
> Then Appo betrayed them by the time Kaidou appeared front of them
> 
> ...


Slapping? HAHAHAHA, he hit him once in dragon form he fell down, then he got knocked the fuck out. You know what was shown by the way? ENRAGED Oden who was storming the castle to kill orochi being held off comfortably by kaido in the castle while orochi was hiding. And that lasted for atleast an hour as it took more than that for oden to come out dancing. Im sorry but your headcanon means nothing.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Slapping? HAHAHAHA, he hit him once in dragon form he fell down, then he got knocked the fuck out. You know what was shown by the way? ENRAGED Oden who was storming the castle to kill orochi being held off comfortably by kaido in the castle while orochi was hiding. And that lasted for atleast an hour as it took more than that for oden to come out dancing. Im sorry but your headcanon means nothing.


Guess you concede the Appoo betrayal thing because you finally realized how nonsensical your stance was on that huh?

Oden stormed the castle took on Kaidou while at the same time as having a convo with Orochi; and then Orochi/Kaidou made up some bullshit so Oden didn’t kill them. Then the second time Oden fought his way through an army and immediately owns Kaidou when he reaches him; and is about to finish him off when the Hag save Kaidou with a cheap trick. And your trying to pass this off as Oden not slapping Kaidou around. Yeah okay dude...


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## Sherlōck (Apr 14, 2020)

Meme isn’t invincible. If she was then she would have been PQ by now.

Laido also isn’t much stronger than Meme. If Laido is 98 then Meme is 92. This is purely based on his WSC title after all.

Now, I definitely don’t think Laido was much stronger than Luffy the last time they fought. It's classic shonen troupe of MC losing first decisively to establish villains strength so that it looks cool when MC finally beats him. Luffy also was enraged so he couldn't properly use FS CoA. Luffy definitely was strong physically but unfortunately because of Laido's dragon skin he couldn’t hurt him. But now that he has learned Advanced+ CoA he will be able to hurt him. But the main problem is G4's time limit. I wonder how will Oda tackle that.


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## Beast (Apr 14, 2020)

Nope, you can’t go rage mode, blast a couple attacks and the enemy eats each and every single hit before proceeding to 1HKO, there isn’t much left other plot and asspulls to get the win. 

Oda did a terrible job building this all up because it’s destined to fail, but hey, at least I don’t like Kaidou or BM to give a shit anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Apr 14, 2020)

Also, Enma isn't the only sword that hurt Laido. 

Both of Loden's sword did.


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## Beast (Apr 14, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Also, Enma isn't the only sword that hurt Laido.
> 
> Both of Loden's sword did.


It’s pretty stupid I’m not gonna lie... why are people giving credit to swords and not Oden? 
I’m not sure what Oda is doing with this story, since when did the weapon make the man?


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## Sherlōck (Apr 14, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> It’s pretty stupid I’m not gonna lie... why are people giving credit to swords and not Oden?
> 
> I’m not sure what Oda is doing with this story, since when did the weapon make the man?



Loden's daughter's idiotic comment made a mess.


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## Fujitora (Apr 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Guess you concede the Appoo betrayal thing because you finally realized how nonsensical your stance was on that huh?
> 
> Oden stormed the castle took on Kaidou while at the same time as having a convo with Orochi; and then Orochi/Kaidou made up some bullshit so Oden didn’t kill them. Then the second time Oden fought his way through an army and immediately owns Kaidou when he reaches him; and is about to finish him off when the Hag save Kaidou with a cheap trick. And your trying to pass this off as Oden not slapping Kaidou around. Yeah okay dude...


No im not conceding anything, apoo beetrayed but it had nothing to do with hawkins reading their odds against kaido. Its you spining a fucking fairy tale.Turrin,bro. Are you retarded? THERE WAS LITTERALY A PANEL OF THEM FIGHTING WHILE OROCHI WAS HIDING. And we know it lasted for atleast more than an hour juding how the citizens waiting outside were saying. While kaido was holding off Oden just fine orochi fucking offered him the deal.
And if Oden was able to kill kaido so easily why is it that he tried to FUCKING KILL HIM in his sleep and or while drunk and why did he write that letter to toki.

Im not passing it off as anything, he hit kaido in his dragon form and then got clubbed.

It seems to me like your reading 2piece. Im done talking to you because obviously you will spin the story however it pleases you and litteraly IGNORE on panel stuff.

@Sherlōck If you wanna be taken seriously then stop talking like a 10 yo child.


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## Sabco (Apr 14, 2020)

Conxc said:


> *I mean Enma allows the wielder to hurt kaido. That’s what it does*. It’s magic after all so I see nothing wrong with that part...



Absolutely wrong, It doesn't. and it's not magic. it depends on your CoA and strength.

Even Ame no Habakiri scarred Kaido, Enma has no magical ability to hurt Kaido. Enma's special trait is to excessively extract one's armament Haki, if you are strong enough tame it and train with it, your overall stats/Haki gets stronger. that's it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Apr 15, 2020)

Sabco said:


> Absolutely wrong, It doesn't. and it's not magic. it depends on your CoA and strength.
> 
> Even Ame no Habakiri scarred Kaido, Enma has no magical ability to hurt Kaido. Enma's special trait is to excessively extract one's armament Haki, if you are strong enough tame it and train with it, your overall stats/Haki gets stronger. that's it.


No way man. Enma is magic. Even a guy like Helmeppo could hurt Kaido with it. Manga clearly states that Enma = hurting Kaido. Clearly states that Zoro is automatically stronger because he now has Enma.


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## Corax (Apr 15, 2020)

No it doesn't. Second sword also left a scar on Kaido (Ame no Habakiri). And it has no hype at all. People often fail to realize that hype is a criteria with the least weight in BD scenarios.


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## Red Admiral (Apr 15, 2020)

without plot armor ... Kaido OR Big Mom are enough to make a spaghetti out of them


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## Sabco (Apr 15, 2020)

Conxc said:


> No way man. Enma is magic. Even a guy like Helmeppo could hurt Kaido with it. Manga clearly states that Enma = hurting Kaido. Clearly states that Zoro is automatically stronger because he now has Enma.



What the hell are you talking about? does that mean Ame no Habakiri is also a "magical" sword? Enma was not stated or shown to be better/stronger than Shusui. it's the swordsman that makes the difference. You appear to have misinterpreted Oden's fight. Zoro isn't going to get stronger solely because of Enma itself, but because he _trained _to tame and use it with his armament Haki. Same way Luffy trained in prison. If a scrub with no CoA management like Helmeppo ever tried to wield Enma he would get dried out of his Haki and fail miserably as his strength/Haki is leagues below Oden's.

What kind of magic again? Enma has the habbit of heavily extracting one's CoA, if one is strong enough to overcome the Haki draining he can undergo intense training with it, It's a plot device/tool to enhance Zoro's Haki mastery, henceforth it's strength/Haki that makes the difference and not whatever headcanon magical ability you think Enma has.

The manga literally told us how it works. It takes Zoro's Haki when he doesn't want it to take it. That's all it does, why are you trying to make it seem like Enma produces it's own energy and magically grants fodder top tier attack power?


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## Beast (Apr 15, 2020)

Sabco said:


> What the hell are you talking about? does that mean Ame no Habakiri is also a "magical" sword? Enma was not stated or shown to be better/stronger than Shusui. it's the swordsman that makes the difference. You appear to have misinterpreted Oden's fight. Zoro isn't going to get stronger solely because of Enma itself, but because he _trained _to tame and use it with his armament Haki. Same way Luffy trained in prison. If a scrub with no CoA management like Helmeppo ever tried to wield Enma he would get dried out of his Haki and fail miserably as his strength/Haki is leagues below Oden's.
> 
> What kind of magic again? Enma has the habbit of heavily extracting one's CoA, if one is strong enough to overcome the Haki draining he can undergo intense training with it, It's a plot device/tool to enhance Zoro's Haki mastery, henceforth it's strength/Haki that makes the difference and not whatever headcanon magical ability you think Enma has.
> 
> The manga literally told us how it works. It takes Zoro's Haki when he doesn't want it to take it. That's all it does, why are you trying to make it seem like Enma produces it's own energy and magically grants fodder top tier attack power?


What other sword extracts haki for you if not a magical one?


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## Sabco (Apr 15, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> What other sword extracts haki for you if not a magical one?



It’s not the sword being "magical" it's its “magical ability” is something anyone can perform, what’s the difference with Enma draining Zoro's Haki and Zoro simply flooding Wado with all his Haki? It's basically a forged tool, if your strength/Haki doesn't meet the requirements you won't be able to properly utilize it

Drop Enma after Zoro's training and he will still perform as good with Shusui or any other blade on the same grade


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## Beast (Apr 15, 2020)

Sabco said:


> It’s not the sword being "magical" it's its “magical ability” is something anyone can perform, what’s the difference with Enma draining Zoro's Haki and Zoro simply flooding Wado with all his Haki? It's basically a forged tool, if your strength/Haki doesn't meet the requirements you won't be able to properly utilize it
> 
> Drop Enma after Zoro's training and he will still perform as good with Shusui or any other blade on the same grade


If he could do it with any another blade, there would be no need for Enma, but denial isn’t going to change that Enma is a special swords with special properties. 


That’s your headcanon, he dropped Shusui for Enma... for a reason.


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## Sabco (Apr 15, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> If he could do it with any another blade, there would be no need for Enma, but denial isn’t going to change that Enma is a special swords with special properties.



You still refuse to comprehend the main point.

Is Enma a special sword with special properties? yes, all great-grade Meitos are.

Does it "magically" boost armament Haki? no
Does it 'magically" increases the AP of anyone who wield it? no
Is it the reason why Kaido got scarred? absolutely not
Does it actually require to intensely train with it by a strong enough swordsmaster? yes

You are forgetting that what Zoro displayed with Enma wasn't a casual swing, he was huffing from all the haki the sword was draining from him, it wasn't Zoro's physical strength that cut the cliff, it was his armament Haki.

When he uses the same armament Haki he managed to control using Shusui he can do the same exact shit. People always like to forget that Zoro managed to cut things FAR BIGGER bigger than that cliff by just casually swinging his blades with armament Haki before Wano. He casually swang Sandai Kitetsu and Shusui and ended up slicing Pica. In Oden's case replace Shusui/Sandai with Enma/Ame.

So the point stands, if Zoro used CoA on any other blade he would've done the same thing. Enma is special because Zoro doesn't want to use the massive amounts of CoA Enma forces him to.



MasterBeast said:


> That’s your headcanon, he dropped Shusui for Enma... for a reason.



You're ironically replying with your own headcanon, he didn't drop Shusui for Enma, he was asked by Hyori to return Shusui as it was a national treasure belonging to Shimotsuki Ryuma in exchange for Enma.

The true headcanon is saying nonsense shit like Enma increases attack power/cutting strength when there's not a single instance in manga where it says Enma/Ame no Habakiri boosted Zoro's power prior his training with it, Shusui is in the same grade (great-grade) as said by Hitetsu therefore there's no apparent reason to say Enma >>> Shusui unless you think Ame no Habakiri increases AP too which is absurdly wrong.


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## Beast (Apr 15, 2020)

Sabco said:


> You still refuse to comprehend the main point.
> 
> Is Enma a special sword with special properties? yes, all great-grade Meitos are.
> 
> ...


Zoro AP did go up.


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## Sabco (Apr 15, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Zoro AP did go up.



Because he managed to tame the blade and intensely train his CoA with it, he didn't get his stats boosted just because he instantly got the sword, he didn't get any free buffs and neither did Oden who proved that when replicated the same feat with both Enma and Ame no Habakiri. Zoro HAD to train with it to increase his AP.

Enma is basically a training wheel. It's a method for Zoro to grow stronger. When he was given Enma, he actually received a debuff as the sword absorbed his Haki, leaving him drained before controlling it, it didn't hand him free power-up.

If you're not strong enough to handle Enma's trait of Haki draining and undergo the intense training afterwards you won't magically get your AP upped, but when Zoro finished his training he can now use the same level of CoA/strength with his other blades.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Apr 15, 2020)

Sabco said:


> Because he managed to tame the blade and intensely train his CoA with it, he didn't get his stats boosted just because he instantly got the sword, he didn't get any free buffs and neither did Oden who proved that when replicated the same feat with both Enma and Ame no Habakiri. Zoro HAD to train with it to increase his AP.
> 
> Enma is basically a training wheel. It's a method for Zoro to grow stronger. When he was given Enma, he actually received a debuff as the sword absorbed his Haki, leaving him drained before controlling it, it didn't hand him free power-up.
> 
> If you're not strong enough to handle Enma's trait of Haki draining and undergo the intense training afterwards you won't magically get your AP upped, but when Zoro finished his training he can now use the same level of CoA/strength with his other blades.


Exactly.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> No im not conceding anything, apoo beetrayed but it had nothing to do with hawkins reading their odds against kaido. Its you spining a fucking fairy tale.Turrin,bro. Are you retarded? THERE WAS LITTERALY A PANEL OF THEM FIGHTING WHILE OROCHI WAS HIDING. And we know it lasted for atleast more than an hour juding how the citizens waiting outside were saying. While kaido was holding off Oden just fine orochi fucking offered him the deal.
> And if Oden was able to kill kaido so easily why is it that he tried to FUCKING KILL HIM in his sleep and or while drunk and why did he write that letter to toki.
> 
> Im not passing it off as anything, he hit kaido in his dragon form and then got clubbed.
> ...


Appo betrays them before Hawkins reads the cards; Yes or No.

If Yes, please explain to me how Apoo betrayal wouldn’t be accounted for in Hawkins reading 

——-
What are you talking about tried to kill him when he was sleep or drunk; and he wrote the letter to Toki because he had to face Kaidoi entire army with just the scabbers lol.


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## Conxc (Apr 15, 2020)

Sabco said:


> What the hell are you talking about? does that mean Ame no Habakiri is also a "magical" sword? Enma was not stated or shown to be better/stronger than Shusui. it's the swordsman that makes the difference. You appear to have misinterpreted Oden's fight. Zoro isn't going to get stronger solely because of Enma itself, but because he _trained _to tame and use it with his armament Haki. Same way Luffy trained in prison. If a scrub with no CoA management like Helmeppo ever tried to wield Enma he would get dried out of his Haki and fail miserably as his strength/Haki is leagues below Oden's.
> 
> What kind of magic again? Enma has the habbit of heavily extracting one's CoA, if one is strong enough to overcome the Haki draining he can undergo intense training with it, It's a plot device/tool to enhance Zoro's Haki mastery, henceforth it's strength/Haki that makes the difference and not whatever headcanon magical ability you think Enma has.
> 
> The manga literally told us how it works. It takes Zoro's Haki when he doesn't want it to take it. That's all it does, why are you trying to make it seem like Enma produces it's own energy and magically grants fodder top tier attack power?


Sorry, had to see if you were one of the ones with any sense here. You passed. 

It’s as you explained. A very straightforward concept made painfully obvious through the manga yet some *still *can’t grasp it. They’d rather think this manga is _Zoron and the Magic Sword. 

Edit: _People are ignoring that Shusui and Enma are of the same grade (for now) except one has a drawback while the other doesn’t. The upside to Emma is that it forces the user to get better to wield it properly. *That’s *the real difference between Enma and other swords of the same grade.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 16, 2020)

Sabco said:


> It’s not the sword being "magical" it's its “magical ability” is something anyone can perform, what’s the difference with Enma draining Zoro's Haki and Zoro simply flooding Wado with all his Haki? It's basically a forged tool, if your strength/Haki doesn't meet the requirements you won't be able to properly utilize it
> 
> *Drop Enma after Zoro's training and he will still perform as good with Shusui or any other blade on the same grade*



Big doubt


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## Corax (Apr 16, 2020)

Enma is just a CoA training device. On the other hand if Zoro gets one of the 12 top grade swords instead of Enma?Well in this case his AP logically should go up because best quality grade+trained CoA should be>trained CoA+second grade category sword.


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## Mrdude (Apr 16, 2020)

Yonko win in every scenario mid diff. They are still too weak to take them out. Most of these characters haven't even shown anything that can hurt a Yonko.


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## Fujitora (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Appo betrays them before Hawkins reads the cards; Yes or No.
> 
> If Yes, please explain to me how Apoo betrayal wouldn’t be accounted for in Hawkins reading
> 
> ...


There is on panel Oden saying to kaido, to be honest the plan was to kill you while you were asleep or drunk. And your last part is headcanon, he never said oh if i dont win against him because im just going in with the scabbards. As if the fodder he went through did anything. He said if i cant manage to defeat him(which by the way, isnt something someone says who can ''slap'' kaido as you like to pretend)

Because his card reading was on kaido and he was referring to kaido alone in that context, nothing about Apoo. Heck apoo didnt even fight, it was killer and kidd vs kaido while hawkins just gave up mate. And if apoo didnt betray would their chances go up significantly from 0? Is that how strong you view apoo? Gimme a fucking break. You are a person who always twists and invents stuff to try to fit your headcanon. Good thing manga facts dont care about that.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> There is on panel Oden saying to kaido, to be honest the plan was to kill you while you were asleep or drunk. And your last part is headcanon, he never said oh if i dont win against him because im just going in with the scabbards. As if the fodder he went through did anything. He said if i cant manage to defeat him(which by the way, isnt something someone says who can ''slap'' kaido as you like to pretend)
> 
> Because his card reading was on kaido and he was referring to kaido alone in that context, nothing about Apoo. Heck apoo didnt even fight, it was killer and kidd vs kaido while hawkins just gave up mate. And if apoo didnt betray would their chances go up significantly from 0? Is that how strong you view apoo? Gimme a fucking break. You are a person who always twists and invents stuff to try to fit your headcanon. Good thing manga facts dont care about that.



- He was referring to their alliance odds against Kaidou; obviously is odds go down if Appo isn’t on their side. How is this hard to understand 

- Oden of course would want to avoid a fight and kill him drunk or asleep if he could have. I was saying that’s not what happened. Oden faced him straight up and slapped his ass.

Oden faces and army with only the scabbers it’s your head-canon that this whole army didn’t matter


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## Vivo Diez (Apr 16, 2020)

Law creates another island sized room and teleports Kaido and Big Mom underwater. The end.


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## Fujitora (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> - He was referring to their alliance odds against Kaidou; obviously is odds go down if Appo isn’t on their side. How is this hard to understand
> 
> - Oden of course would want to avoid a fight and kill him drunk or asleep if he could have. I was saying that’s not what happened. Oden faced him straight up and slapped his ass.
> 
> Oden faces and army with only the scabbers it’s your head-canon that this whole army didn’t matter


He hit him once in his dragon form, after that kaido knocked him out. What the hell is wrong with your reading comprehension? Was oden not enraged by the fact that orochi hurt his wife? Yes, then he went there with the intent to kill. That same bloodlusted Oden was being held off comfortably by kaido. Its litteraly there on panel. We also know for a fact that the encounter lasted more than an hour.
Kaido clearly was arrogant and paid the price by getting wounded like that, he was not slapped like you say mate. Its litteraly not a thing in the manga. But hey keep on headcanoning. And dont try to justify Oden's thought process as if you were in his mind. Him trying to kill him is litteraly him being wary of him and being unsure he could actually beat him, so killing him in his sleep/drunk is the easiest route. The rest is,again and its something you love to do.headcanon.

So apparently Apoo is so strong that their odds went down significantly to zero huh? Wow man, Apoo yonko level. He was refering to their odds against kaido yes, but lets not act like apoo wouldve made a big change.

What do you mean headcanon? We saw oden plowing through them and going straight to kaido, how did they matter if he could do that?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> He hit him once in his dragon form, after that kaido knocked him out. What the hell is wrong with your reading comprehension? Was oden not enraged by the fact that orochi hurt his wife? Yes, then he went there with the intent to kill. That same bloodlusted Oden was being held off comfortably by kaido. Its litteraly there on panel. We also know for a fact that the encounter lasted more than an hour.
> Kaido clearly was arrogant and paid the price by getting wounded like that, he was not slapped like you say mate. Its litteraly not a thing in the manga. But hey keep on headcanoning. And dont try to justify Oden's thought process as if you were in his mind. Him trying to kill him is litteraly him being wary of him and being unsure he could actually beat him, so killing him in his sleep/drunk is the easiest route. The rest is,again and its something you love to do.headcanon.
> 
> So apparently Apoo is so strong that their odds went down significantly to zero huh? Wow man, Apoo yonko level. He was refering to their odds against kaido yes, but lets not act like apoo wouldve made a big change.
> ...



1- Oden fought Kaidou while listening and talking to Orochi at the same time. The story then tells us that Orochi and Kaidou used hostages to get Oden to back off because they weren’t confident they could win. Then Oden faced Kaidoi again, even after fighting through an army and hit him with a horrible wound; and then was about to finish him, when Orochi/Hag once again used a hostage to get Oden to back down; giving Kaidou an opening to hit him. Then literally Kaidou gave Oden a task he thought was impossible which Oden accomplished. The manga could t be more clear when it comes to Oden > Kaidou back then. You need to stop with this BS and rely on the only argument that you can that maybe Kaidou got stronger.

2- Aren’t you one of those people that believed Kaidou is going to loose to multiple Supernova ganging up on him? If so then why are you struggling with the concept that 1 Supernova could make a big difference in this fight? So yeah I think Apoo betraying them made their odds drop form probably like a 30-40% chance of beating a Yonko; to 0%. Again it’s absurd to believe Hawkins would join an alliance formed to defeat a Yonko; if Kidd, Appoo, and Himself (maybe Killer) didn’t at least have those odds of beating a Yonko, considering the moment the odds dropped to 0% he gave up on the alliance and cuck’d down to a Yonko.

This isn’t a hard heady concept to grasp. And considering we don’t know how strong Kidd, Appoo, Hawkins, and Killer are its very possible can take a Yonko.


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## Beast (Apr 17, 2020)

Oden would have chopped off any piece of limb that was there if he landed his hit, which was Kaidous head.


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## Fujitora (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Oden fought Kaidou while listening and talking to Orochi at the same time. The story then tells us that Orochi and Kaidou used hostages to get Oden to back off because they weren’t confident they could win. Then Oden faced Kaidoi again, even after fighting through an army and hit him with a horrible wound; and then was about to finish him, when Orochi/Hag once again used a hostage to get Oden to back down; giving Kaidou an opening to hit him. Then literally Kaidou gave Oden a task he thought was impossible which Oden accomplished. The manga could t be more clear when it comes to Oden > Kaidou back then. You need to stop with this BS and rely on the only argument that you can that maybe Kaidou got stronger.
> 
> 2- Aren’t you one of those people that believed Kaidou is going to loose to multiple Supernova ganging up on him? If so then why are you struggling with the concept that 1 Supernova could make a big difference in this fight? So yeah I think Apoo betraying them made their odds drop form probably like a 30-40% chance of beating a Yonko; to 0%. Again it’s absurd to believe Hawkins would join an alliance formed to defeat a Yonko; if Kidd, Appoo, and Himself (maybe Killer) didn’t at least have those odds of beating a Yonko, considering the moment the odds dropped to 0% he gave up on the alliance and cuck’d down to a Yonko.
> 
> This isn’t a hard heady concept to grasp. And considering we don’t know how strong Kidd, Appoo, Hawkins, and Killer are its very possible can take a Yonko.


Oden fought kaido while orochi was hiding, then orochi proposed his plan. Correction, orochi used the offerings he was gonna give to kaido anyways as a deterrent, saying he would continue to do so unless oden complied. If as you said oden could ''slap'' kaido. Then he wouldve done it right there and then and killed orochi. But he didnt, because he couldnt. Also Orochi and kaido got him to back off not because they werent confident they could win against Oden but because they thought it would be difficult ( see the difference?) because the man still had the support of the entirety of wano. So  they decided to undermine his reputation little by little. It had nothing to do with wether they could win or not but with how hard it would be. Nothing in that stats that Oden> Kaido but you mate. And bro, once again, he only hit him once in dragon form. After that kaido clubbed him, the hag thing had nothing to do with kaido nor would he have needed it since he got up and covered the distance between him and oden in the split second it took him to turn around. You cant say he was about to finish him when the fight itself was inconclusive. And given how they were pretty even back then then its even less so the case.
Kaido was arrogant, thought he would be fine in dragon form, got hit and suffered the consequences but never ONCE was he shown at a disadvantage against Oden in his regular form. So come off it. As for the pot, it was again OROCHI'S idea. And kaido only told him that if he survived 1h there he would let them go. Turns out, orochi was a snake and didnt respect the agreement. But kaido grew to respect the man, and even offered to finish him off himself as his body was already dead due to the boiling.

So. nah man, but nothing in that flashback showed conclusively that one was weaker than the other. If anything Oden thought he was, given the letter he wrote to toki and his waryness of Kaido trying to kill him in his sleep.


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## Fujitora (Apr 17, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Oden would have chopped off any piece of limb that was there if he landed his hit, which was Kaidous head.


Oden was yelling: Never come back to wano, is that something you say to someone youre about to kill? And please, the fight was inconclusive and you know it. And Kaido got up and covered the distance between oden and him AND clubbed him in the split second it took for oden to turn around. Whats stopping him from blocking the hit with his club if that didnt happen? Especially since the hag thing wasnt his idea?


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Oden fought kaido while orochi was hiding, then orochi proposed his plan. Correction, orochi used the offerings he was gonna give to kaido anyways as a deterrent, saying he would continue to do so unless oden complied. If as you said oden could ''slap'' kaido. Then he wouldve done it right there and then and killed orochi. But he didnt, because he couldnt. Also Orochi and kaido got him to back off not because they werent confident they could win against Oden but because they thought it would be difficult ( see the difference?) because the man still had the support of the entirety of wano. So  they decided to undermine his reputation little by little. It had nothing to do with wether they could win or not but with how hard it would be. Nothing in that stats that Oden> Kaido but you mate. And bro, once again, he only hit him once in dragon form. After that kaido clubbed him, the hag thing had nothing to do with kaido nor would he have needed it since he got up and covered the distance between him and oden in the split second it took him to turn around. You cant say he was about to finish him when the fight itself was inconclusive. And given how they were pretty even back then then its even less so the case.
> Kaido was arrogant, thought he would be fine in dragon form, got hit and suffered the consequences but never ONCE was he shown at a disadvantage against Oden in his regular form. So come off it. As for the pot, it was again OROCHI'S idea. And kaido only told him that if he survived 1h there he would let them go. Turns out, orochi was a snake and didnt respect the agreement. But kaido grew to respect the man, and even offered to finish him off himself as his body was already dead due to the boiling.
> 
> So. nah man, but nothing in that flashback showed conclusively that one was weaker than the other. If anything Oden thought he was, given the letter he wrote to toki and his waryness of Kaido trying to kill him in his sleep.



1- He couldn’t because of the hostages lol.

2- If Kaidou and Orochi could have beaten Oden; they would have done so there in that first confrontation. Oden didn’t have any support there he was alone against Kaidou; in-fact Kaidou had the support of the Barrier user / Orochimaru / Hag if he needed it. Yet still he clearly felt he would loose so he went along with Orochi plan to black mail Oden out of the fight 

3- He wounded him badly enough in dragon form that Kaidou was exposed for a second final blow Oden was about to deal him

4- And it’s absurd that your suggesting that Oda wrote in the Hag / Hostage scene and it didn’t even matter. Again just stop 

5- Kaidou offered Oden a challenge he thought was impossible (ergo Kaidou himself obviously couldn’t do it); Oden accomplished that challenge proving he was superior to what Kaidou even thought was possible 

6- And I guess your again trying to run away form the Hawkins card thing as you once agin realize how ridiculous your being in your assertions there


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## Fujitora (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- He couldn’t because of the hostages lol.
> 
> 2- If Kaidou and Orochi could have beaten Oden; they would have done so there in that first confrontation. Oden didn’t have any support there he was alone against Kaidou; in-fact Kaidou had the support of the Barrier user / Orochimaru / Hag if he needed it. Yet still he clearly felt he would loose so he went along with Orochi plan to black mail Oden out of the fight
> 
> ...


Lmfao says who? Whos gonna get these hostages if he just CoC blasts the fodder, ''slaps'' kaido and kills orochi? Oh wait, you have no reasoning for that.

Oh i see youre pulling the uno reverse card on me, I just told you what the manga said, and clearly it wouldve taken either kaido or oden a long time to take each other out as evidenced by the fucking fact that they were at it for more than an hour while orochi was hidding, i doubt orochi was talking the whole time. He proposed his offer by the end is what im thinking, so you have kaido trying to take Oden out. Then oden can just come out of the castle and call for reinforcement. Now you have the entirety of wano samurai against kaido and his still emerging beasts pirates. Thats why they decided to undermine him. its litteraly in the manga mate. Dont argue against it, it makes you look bad.

He wounded him badly yet it didnt stop kaido from getting up and runing to him AND clubbing him IN THE SPLIT SECOND it took oden to turn around( stop making me repeat this), and judging by the fact that kaido had the hag killed proved how unsatisfied he was by the inconclusiveness of the fight, which it was. Inconclusive.

Oh so now kaido cant stay in boiling oil? Who told you that ? Or is that just another one of your headcanons at play again? 
No, Oden proved to kaido that he was a man, and a strong one at that and he grew to respect him enough to offer to finish him off himself instead of orochi's snake ass. Nothing else about Oden being superior. Now youre just grasping at straws and its annoying, stick to the facts or dont bother replying to me please.

Im not runing away from the hawkins card thing, because i said what i said and youre just talking circles about it. There is no point for me debating youre dellusion on that. As if Apoo wouldve shot up the score from 0% to what? Just how strong do you think apoo is for it to matter?


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Lmfao says who? Whos gonna get these hostages if he just CoC blasts the fodder, ''slaps'' kaido and kills orochi? Oh wait, you have no reasoning for that.
> 
> Oh i see youre pulling the uno reverse card on me, I just told you what the manga said, and clearly it wouldve taken either kaido or oden a long time to take each other out as evidenced by the fucking fact that they were at it for more than an hour while orochi was hidding, i doubt orochi was talking the whole time. He proposed his offer by the end is what im thinking, so you have kaido trying to take Oden out. Then oden can just come out of the castle and call for reinforcement. Now you have the entirety of wano samurai against kaido and his still emerging beasts pirates. Thats why they decided to undermine him. its litteraly in the manga mate. Dont argue against it, it makes you look bad.
> 
> ...


1- Obviously if Orochi / Kaidou dies their underlings would kill the hostages. Your basically arguing the author include a narrative plot device (hostages) that served no point in the story, even though the author specifically noted in the narrative that this is what stopped Oden....

2- Dude no people were rising up to aid Oden while Oden was fighting Kaidou in the castle; they all were stated to be hiding. So your just making this up as a concept. Kaido and Orochi simply knew they couldn’t beat Oden period. Which was later shown when even 5Y later Oden slapped Kaidou

3- Kaidou only had a chance to get up due to the Hostage 

4- Yeah Kaidou 20Y ago clearly can’t do what Oden did he gave him a task he thought was impossible and shit himself when Oden complete it. He then is obsessed with having a similar death of that caliber ever since 

5- So your stances is that even before Apoo betrayed them they had 0% chance against a Yonko; yet Hawkins still agreed to the alliance; even though he immediately dissolved it when he noticed their chance was 0% lol That makes zero sense dude, want to clarify?


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## Fujitora (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Obviously if Orochi / Kaidou dies their underlings would kill the hostages. Your basically arguing the author include a narrative plot device (hostages) that served no point in the story, even though the author specifically noted in the narrative that this is what stopped Oden....
> 
> 2- Dude no people were rising up to aid Oden while Oden was fighting Kaidou in the castle; they all were stated to be hiding. So your just making this up as a concept. Kaido and Orochi simply knew they couldn’t beat Oden period. Which was later shown when even 5Y later Oden slapped Kaidou
> 
> ...



1- Im not arguing anything, you are saying oden slapped kaido yet why didnt he slap him there and CoC blast the fodder that you say will kill the hostages? He told me you want me to stop offering people to kaido? Then do this. The author said that oden complied yes but thee reason he complied is obvious. If he could do something about it he wouldve. Fact is, he couldnt get rid of kaido. But orochi promised him that he and kaido would leave when they build their ships. Once orochi didnt do that he decided to pull a swan song and go finish it. And even then, while extremely mad, he decided that the wise option is to kill kaido in his sleep. Thats NOT something you do to someone you ''slap'' as you say.

2- The citizens of wano all were on Odens side, if Oden and kaido kept fighting then he wouldve rallied the samurai to his cause. Thats littraly what was written in the chapter. And that was a fight that Kaido said would be difficult to win.

3- Oden was a fair distance away from kaido, it took kaido an instant to cover the distance and run up to oden and club him. If you dont think he wouldve blocked that next attack then its on you. As if holding your arm up with a club takes longer than getting up and running and clubbing someone. Jeez.

4 - No, thats your headcanon. He didnt shit himself either. You see, thats your problem. You go by feellings and by what you think should or wouldve happened where i go by hard manga facts. Which means this conversation is over, because we are going circles and im tired of debating you and bringing reason whereas you go by gut feeling.

5- Hawkins agreed to the alliance against shanks, every instance we saw him read his odds against something or with something. That something was in his presence. Shanks wasnt in front of hawkins. Kaido was.

Im done talking, its tiring and i dont think talking to a brick wall for hours is worth my time. Have a good day/night and stay safe buddy.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> 1- Im not arguing anything, you are saying oden slapped kaido yet why didnt he slap him there and CoC blast the fodder that you say will kill the hostages? He told me you want me to stop offering people to kaido? Then do this. The author said that oden complied yes but thee reason he complied is obvious. If he could do something about it he wouldve. Fact is, he couldnt get rid of kaido. But orochi promised him that he and kaido would leave when they build their ships. Once orochi didnt do that he decided to pull a swan song and go finish it. And even then, while extremely mad, he decided that the wise option is to kill kaido in his sleep. Thats NOT something you do to someone you ''slap'' as you say.
> 
> 2- The citizens of wano all were on Odens side, if Oden and kaido kept fighting then he wouldve rallied the samurai to his cause. Thats littraly what was written in the chapter. And that was a fight that Kaido said would be difficult to win.
> 
> ...


1- Why isn’t CoTC used more often in general? Why didn’t Oden return the next day with an army and CoTC crush the people being held hostage. CoTC isn’t a full fleshed out concept, so there is no way to answer that. The narrative however tells us Oden didn’t make a move due to the hostages.

2- As you said they were fight for hour; so where were all the citizen and Samurai rallying against Kaidou...oh yeah the manga says they were hiding. This is pure head-canon on your behalf

3- Yeah and instant; one piece characters are fast it only takes an instant; but Oden would have been on him before then; as his attack needs to be stopped by the Hag. Its silly to take away anything other then Oden winning the fight up until the Hag intervened. It’s silly to believe that serves no narrative purpose. 

4- Cold facts are Kaidou gave Oden as task he thought was impossible; and Oden achieved it 

5- No we saw him read Luffy odds and he wasn’t in the presence of Kaidou. Stop

And if you don’t want to respond then don’t quote me


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## Fujitora (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Why isn’t CoTC used more often in general? Why didn’t Oden return the next day with an army and CoTC crush the people being held hostage. CoTC isn’t a full fleshed out concept, so there is no way to answer that. The narrative however tells us Oden didn’t make a move due to the hostages.
> 
> 2- As you said they were fight for hour; so where were all the citizen and Samurai rallying against Kaidou...oh yeah the manga says they were hiding. This is pure head-canon on your behalf
> 
> ...


1- Thats just a problem with this series in general, but fact is Kaido and him were fighting for a while before orochi started spitting his offer. Thats a fact.
2- And yet in that instant he turned around kaido covered a big distance and clubbed him, oda made the fight inconclusive on purpose. To show kaido killed the hag is himself expressing that distaste. Its fucking silly to assume he wouldnt have blocked it especially since we saw the amount of stuff he did in that moment. Manga and anime everywhere have the guy go down and then block the next attack, i dont know why youre trying to say kaido couldnt have blocked the attack, the saw way he was comfortably fighting Oden in the castle.
And no, the manga clearly has kaido say that if he decided to fight them anyways, the samurai wouldve risen up with him and it wouldve been a difficult battle. Stop trying to selectively read shit.
3 No, cold fact is kaido gave Oden a task he thought impossible for him not for kaido. The rest is just assumptions. The fact that youre trying to spill it over on kaido is on you. It was never hinted at that he couldnt do it. its just you again going by headcanon.

4 He saw luffy and read his odds on this island, not against kaido himself. So yeah , stop yourself. Every single time hawkins used his ability was in the presence of someone or something it relates to.

I just quoted you again, my bad. Clearly youre reading two piece with your added thoughts of how things should proceed.


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## Turrin (Apr 18, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> 1- Thats just a problem with this series in general, but fact is Kaido and him were fighting for a while before orochi started spitting his offer. Thats a fact.
> 2- And yet in that instant he turned around kaido covered a big distance and clubbed him, oda made the fight inconclusive on purpose. To show kaido killed the hag is himself expressing that distaste. Its fucking silly to assume he wouldnt have blocked it especially since we saw the amount of stuff he did in that moment. Manga and anime everywhere have the guy go down and then block the next attack, i dont know why youre trying to say kaido couldnt have blocked the attack, the saw way he was comfortably fighting Oden in the castle.
> And no, the manga clearly has kaido say that if he decided to fight them anyways, the samurai wouldve risen up with him and it wouldve been a difficult battle. Stop trying to selectively read shit.
> 3 No, cold fact is kaido gave Oden a task he thought impossible for him not for kaido. The rest is just assumptions. The fact that youre trying to spill it over on kaido is on you. It was never hinted at that he couldnt do it. its just you again going by headcanon.
> ...


1- Thats literally what I said; it’s a problem with the series; and yes Oden did fight Kaidou for awhile; but the clear implication is that Kaidou could not defeat Oden hence the need for the hostages 

2- Yeah when he turned around Kaidou got and opening due to the Hostage; again he needed outside help

3- No the manga says that if they went to war with each other the Samurai would have risen up; they are talking about after Oden left the castle and the 5Y period; why they didn’t start a war with Oden then, and why the “honored” the deal of stopping the kidnappings. But in that first clash there were no Samurai rising up; it was just Oden vs Kaidou (with back up potentially from Barrier dude) and still Kaidou resorted you Hostages to get Oden to back down 

4- Why would Kaidou give someone who even you admit was at least close to his level (or are you going to deny that too); a Task that he could easily clear himself? That makes zero sense dude. Oden’s entire tasks are modeled after Hercules labors, is which were all things  King s, thought were impossible 

5- He read Luffy fortune and concluded he had a 19% chance to be dead in a month; there is no reason he couldn’t have read his or Kidd’s (or their alliance fortune) if they were to go against a Yonko. In-fact it’s OOC that he wouldn’t


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## hajimehipo (May 5, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> @Turrin responding to your neg:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exactly , luffy beating lucci and doffy were logical , due to fresh power ups , but beating a guy that speed blitzed your strongest form 8 days ago,   will transform one piece into fairy tail tier of    asspull

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 6, 2020)

hajimehipo said:


> Exactly , luffy beating lucci and doffy were logical , due to fresh power ups , but beating a guy that speed blitzed your strongest form 8 days ago,   will transform one piece into fairy tail tier of    asspull


He didn’t speed blitz; Luffy’s strongest form. Luffy was consumed with rage and couldn’t use CoO properly. If Luffy thought speed was an issue he would be training in speed; instead of believe Advanced CoA is enough. That should tell you speed is going to be a non factor when Luffy starts using CoO


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Oden was yelling: Never come back to wano, is that something you say to someone youre about to kill? And please, the fight was inconclusive and you know it. And Kaido got up and covered the distance between oden and him AND clubbed him in the split second it took for oden to turn around. Whats stopping him from blocking the hit with his club if that didnt happen? Especially since the hag thing wasnt his idea?


Why would you lie like that?
Oden stopped his attack mid way, turned around and was already tracking back to his ‘son’, oden didn’t just turn around and get clubbed, he already covered some distance, Kaidou got up and came behind to club him.
Now, In all that time, it would have taken Oden 10th of that time to just finish his attack and Kaidou wouldn’t have dodged.
Kaidou would have been dead if not close enough, Oden is a good guy afterall.
It doesn’t change anything when i said ‘if Oden finished his attack’.


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## Fujitora (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Why would you lie like that?
> Oden stopped his attack mid way, turned around and was already tracking back to his ‘son’, oden didn’t just turn around and get clubbed, he already covered some distance, Kaidou got up and came behind to club him.
> Now, In all that time, it would have taken Oden 10th of that time to just finish his attack and Kaidou wouldn’t have dodged.
> Kaidou would have been dead if not close enough, Oden is a good guy afterall.
> It doesn’t change anything when i said ‘if Oden finished his attack’.


I didnt lie ? Yeah he stopped his attack mid way but he was still a way to go to get to kaido? He turned around and walked a few steps and thats it. And again, youre just using your own fanfic to say he wouldve died, im using mine based on the fact that he did what he did after to say he wouldnt and wouldve blocked the attack without the hag's intervention. You cant tout yours as fact just as much as i cant do mine.

And you keep saying he wouldve killed him yet he was yelling never come back to wano, wow man. That sure is something you tell to a future corpse huh? What, is he gonnna come back as a zombie or something?


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> I didnt lie ? Yeah he stopped his attack mid way but he was still a way to go to get to kaido? He turned around and walked a few steps and thats it. And again, youre just using your own fanfic to say he wouldve died, im using mine based on the fact that he did what he did after to say he wouldnt and wouldve blocked the attack without the hag's intervention. You cant tout yours as fact just as much as i cant do mine.
> 
> And you keep saying he wouldve killed him yet he was yelling never come back to wano, wow man. That sure is something you tell to a future corpse huh? What, is he gonnna come back as a zombie or something?



And what more lies do you have for us?
Bottom left, Oden already mid way swinging both his swords and already on top of Kaidou, but yes tell us what ways he still had to go?


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## Fujitora (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> And what more lies do you have for us?
> Bottom left, Oden already mid way swinging both his swords and already on top of Kaidou, but yes tell us what ways he still had to go?


So how am i lying exactly? He couldve blocked it is all im saying


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## OG sama (May 6, 2020)

This battle actually has a very strong likelihood of happening, if Big Mom is in fact going down this arc.

I guess the team... but only because I feel like Big Mom and Kaido don’t know how to work as a team, that will ultimately be their downfall.

Under these stipulations though the team loses... like only Zoro and Luffy being able to injure the two pretty much makes the others a non factor, it’s like why even have them there then?

Also Advanced CoA definitely will work on Big Mom, how she gone protect her insides from getting damaged? It’s gone work on her as well as everyone.


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## hajimehipo (May 7, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> That is true. Out of all the Yonkous Big Mom has yet to have a serious blow dealt on her.
> 
> However in the same aspect Big Mom hasn't faced Oden or Admirals yet like WB and Kaidou have.




Kaido ok but white beard ??? 
That old fart was getting scars from marine fodders and squardo  .
 The durability of big mom and kaido is very very special , no other top tier have it , garp was getting slashed by morgan. 
You replace roger by kaido/big mom and they would have had needed admirals to come and execute them not some random marine fodders.


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