# 3rd Raikage vs Hebi Sasuke



## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

*Location:* Deidara vs Sasuke

*Distance:* 15 meters

*Knowledge:* Manga

*Restriction:* Amber Sealing Pot


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## LostSelf (May 10, 2015)

Third Raikage grabs Sasuke after the latter tries to stab him with Chidori or his sword. The rest is history.


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## Alex Payne (May 10, 2015)

^ By history you mean CS2 and Oral Rebirth? And then the continuation of the fight?


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

My argument is that the 3rd Raikage only ever displayed v1 speed, which Sasuke was shown  even without Orochimaru's chakra and the Curse Seal _boosting his speed further_. 

Moreover, we see  that Sasuke is IC willing to use Kirin _early_. He did not against Deidara or Itachi because he was seeking information from them initially.

In conclusion, there is nothing suggesting that the 3rd Raikage can avoid or tank the mountain-destroying Kirin (_far_ stronger than FRS.) And there's evidence for Sasuke evading the 3rd Raikage cleanly.

Moreover, Hebi Sasuke was more cautious than Taka Sasuke due to the latter being  by the truth about Itachi, but even if he does make a mistake, then he can Oral Rebirth and resume.

*i.e.* He'd be less likely to rush into CQC against an eight-foot, 400-pound lightning-armored Raikage, and more likely to use the cautious strategy and tactics we saw him employ against Itachi.

Lastly, genjutsu would still work, and of course, releasing Orochimaru would definitely work, as white snake toxin is an easy solution to getting around the Raikage durability.​


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## Ghost (May 10, 2015)

How is Sasuke prepping a thunderstorm by himself here while the Raikage is constantly chasing after him? Kirin without a thunderstorm created by Amaterasu and multiple huge Katons aimed at the sky should be much weaker than the one Sasuke used against Itachi. And even that I see Raikage tanking.


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## LostSelf (May 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> ^ By history you mean CS2 and Oral Rebirth? And then the continuation of the fight?



CS2 won't save him from Nukite. Oral Rebirth barely. But it takes a lot of chakra off him and the Raikage won't have any reason of stop his atrack.

But if that's the continuation of the fight, then yes. 

The third as well can react to everything Sasuke throws at him save Kirin. And with Manga knowledge, and considering how stupidly arrogant Sasuke is, and he can be grabbed sooner or later.

Unless he knows the heck of a tank that the Raikage is.


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

Sasuke literally has nothing besides Kirin that can defeat Sandaime Raikage.

 He literally outclasses Hebi Sasuke in every possible way. Manda would be a factor if it wasn't for the fact that Nukite just kills off Manda.

 Sandaime Raikage low diffs, especially when I hold the belief that he's relatively close to V2 Ei's speed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sasuke literally has nothing besides Kirin that can defeat Sandaime Raikage.
> 
> He literally outclasses Hebi Sasuke in every possible way. Manda would be a factor if it wasn't for the fact that Nukite just kills off Manda.
> 
> Sandaime Raikage low diffs, especially when I hold the belief that he's relatively close to V2 Ei's speed.


Even Kirin can't defeat the Sandaime Raikage. Rasenshuriken is nearly four times stronger in terms of pure firepower and it didn't even cause a scratch. Not to mention its probable the Sandaime Raikage faced a standard powered Bijudama and survived during his battle with Gyuki...

Hell even EMS Sasuke should have difficulty against the Sandaime Raikage until he got the PS. Guy was a beast.


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## Veracity (May 10, 2015)

Sandaime Raikage would trash Hebi Sasuke. By powerscaling, a stronger MS Sasuke was able to outmaneuver a shunshin-less V1 Ay. Sandiame Raikage would have an equal chance of landing a CQC strike on Hebi Sasuke, and Sasukes hits would bounce of his flesh.

Kirin not only takes prep( and wastes chakra) but wouldn't even kill the Raikage. FRS has better feats( considering how concentrated it is) than Kirin + an infinity advantage, and didn't even kill the Raikage.

He basically forces CQC through V1 Shunshins and Black lighting, and fingers Sasuke to death.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> CS2 won't save him from Nukite. Oral Rebirth barely. But it takes a lot of chakra off him and the Raikage won't have any reason of stop his atrack.
> 
> But if that's the continuation of the fight, then yes.
> 
> ...



Hebi Sasuke was neither stupid nor arrogant. For instance, he was modest when someone mentioned him killing Orochimaru, and took every precaution possible against Itachi.

MS Sasuke, on the other hand, decided to take on the Gokage and their body guards alone. The difference is clear. One might go for CQC with a Raikage, and the other probably would not.​


Likes boss said:


> a stronger MS Sasuke was able to outmaneuver a shunshin-less V1 Ay.



No. MS Sasuke had a new powerful jutsu, but was slower than Hebi Sasuke because he lacked Orochimaru's chakra and the Curse Seal, which was stated in DB3 to amplify his speed.

He was also weaker in tactics because of his anger after Itachi's death and his overestimation of his eyes' abilities. IMO the smart Hebi Sasuke is stronger than the dumb unmastered-MS Sasuke.​


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even Kirin can't defeat the Sandaime Raikage. Rasenshuriken is nearly four times stronger in terms of pure firepower and it didn't even cause a scratch. Not to mention its probable the Sandaime Raikage faced a standard powered Bijudama and survived during his battle with Gyuki...
> 
> Hell even EMS Sasuke should have difficulty against the Sandaime Raikage until he got the PS. Guy was a beast.



 No, I definitely agree. I don't necessarily believe that EMS Sasuke needs PS to fend off Sandaime Raikage, but I do agree with the rest.


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## Source (May 10, 2015)

FRS has better feats than Kirin, plus an affinity advantage. Kirin isn't putting the Raikage down.

Sasuke is outclassed completely.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> No, I definitely agree. I don't necessarily believe that EMS Sasuke needs PS to fend off Sandaime Raikage, but I do agree with the rest.


Amaterasu could barely burn through the Yondaime Raikage's lightning armor, so even Sasuke's advanced Enton Manipulation with the EMS wouldn't help him. Susanoo arrows would just bounce off too. Perfect Susanoo is needed to put the Sandaime down.


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> *Distance:15 meters *



 So basically a spite thread.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So basically a spite thread.



You grant the 3rd Raikage his son's world-famous shunshin for no reason. If I agreed that the 3rd Raikage had the "v2" shunshin, then I'd agree that Sasuke would be unable to cope.

As is stands, with v1 speed and Oral Rebirth just in case, I see zero reason why Sasuke would be unable to evade and set up Kirin, and the 3rd Raikage's durability feats do not indicate he'd tank Kirin.

Additionally, I don't see why genjutsu trickery wouldn't work, as he has no special genjutsu-resistance ability like Deidara, Itachi, etc. If he's captured in genjutsu, he's going to be tricked.​


Source said:


> FRS has better feats than Kirin, plus an affinity advantage.



FRS isn't even one tenth of Kirin's destructive power. It takes a bite out of a hill, but Kirin annihilates the entire mountain.​


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## Kyu (May 10, 2015)

Raikage skewers Sasuke's cunt beyond repair.


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You grant the 3rd Raikage his son's world-famous shunshin for no reason. If I agreed that the 3rd Raikage had the "v2" shunshin, then I'd agree that Sasuke would be unable to cope.​




 It depends on your interpretation. Kishimoto attempted to hype up the Sandaime Raikage as being a powerful opponent for a Naruto that outclasses Hebi Sasuke. As KCM Naruto already proven his speed was enough to compete with V2 Ei, it'd make no sense for Sandaime Raikage to be significantly slower than KCM Naruto. 



> As is stands, with v1 speed and an Oral Rebirth reset, I see zero reason why Sasuke would be unable to evade and set up Kirin, and the 3rd Raikage's durability feats do not indicate he'd tank Kirin.
> 
> Additionally, I don't see why genjutsu trickery wouldn't work.



 A superior MS Sasuke was able to react to V1 Raikage's Shunshin, but that doesn't mean necessarily mean Hebi Sasuke can. Sasuke also has no feats of being able to compete with V1 Shunshin when Base Bee's Shunshin speed actually outclassed Sasuke's own, so he's certainly not gaining distance and he's certainly not putting himself in a vulnerable position to set up Kirin, especially in an open-field. 

 Genjutsu trickery wouldn't work the same reason why MS Sasuke was unable to use genjutsu against the Raikage, they're likely just too damn fast.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It depends on your interpretation. Kishimoto attempted to hype up the Sandaime Raikage as being a powerful opponent for a Naruto that outclasses Hebi Sasuke.



To be clear: a clone of Naruto beat him with the Rasengan by entering Sage Mode for two seconds and didn't sustain any injury. _That_ does not outclass Deidara or Hebi Sasuke.​


NarutoX28 said:


> A superior MS Sasuke was able to react to V1 Raikage's Shunshin, but that doesn't mean necessarily mean Hebi Sasuke



MS Sasuke lost the two speed boosts that Hebi Sasuke had, according to the databook. An unmastered-MS Sasuke being overall superior is a matter for debate.​


NarutoX28 said:


> Sasuke also has no feats of being able to compete with V1 Shunshin when Base Bee's Shunshin speed actually outclassed Sasuke's own



As I said before. MS Sasuke < Hebi Sasuke in speed.​


NarutoX28 said:


> Genjutsu trickery wouldn't work the same reason why MS Sasuke was unable to use genjutsu against the Raikage, they're likely just too damn fast.



Sasuke was never "unable" to use genjutsu on the Raikage when he was standing still looking at his eyes. He just _didn't_. Sasuke tends to use genjutsu near the end of fights, not early on.​


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

Wasn't this supposed to be against Start of Part II Sasuke? 



Strategoob said:


> My argument is that the 3rd Raikage only ever displayed v1 speed, which Sasuke was shown  even without Orochimaru's chakra and the Curse Seal _boosting his speed further_.



Sasuke was able to evade a lunging A once by ducking under his predictable Elbow at the last possible second. He still won't be in any better of a position against the 3rd Raikage than he was against the 4th. Instead of getting his back slammed into the ground with enough force to collapse the floor he gets grabbed by the throat, and the 3rd then proceeds to shove his entire arm through Sasuke chest.



> Moreover, we see  that Sasuke is IC willing to use Kirin _immediately_. He did not against Deidara or Itachi because he was seeking information from them initially.



A bunch of close quarters stuff happened before Sasuke went for Kirin.



> In conclusion, there is nothing suggesting that the 3rd Raikage can avoid or tank the mountain-destroying Kirin. And there is evidence to suggest that Sasuke can cleanly evade the 3rd Raikage.



There's actually nothing suggesting that Sasuke can actually use a "mountain"-destroying Kirin without the storm clouds generated from Amaterasu and his fire dragons.

I also don't know where you got that he couldn't evade it, or at least dodge the brunt of it. The entire point of the Raiton cloak is to enhance reflexes, meaning that Sandaime'd likely be able to use the body flicker in response to Sasuke's arm and get far enough away that he doesn't take a direct hit. 

Actually, he might be able to just tank it too. Rasenshuriken's damage is more precise than Kirin's and has the elemental advantage over Sandaime's Raiton armor, and that couldn't even put the guy down. Also let's not forget that Kirin was introduced as not being able to break through....what was it now...skeletal Susano'o?



> Moreover, Hebi Sasuke was more cautious than Taka Sasuke due to the latter being  by the truth about Itachi, but even if he does make a mistake, then he can Oral Rebirth and resume.
> 
> *i.e.* He'd be less likely to rush into CQC against an eight-foot, 400-pound lightning-armored Raikage, and more likely to use the cautious strategy and tactics we saw him employ against Itachi.



We saw against Danzo that Sasuke was still capable of tactical thinking. He didn't fight against A or B up close because he was insane, he did so because that's his _preferred range._ 

Sasuke initially rushes in against damn near everyone. Pull out the list: Team 7? Check. Deidara & Obito? Check. B? Check. A & his entourage? Check. Danzo? Check...

This was the case even when attempting to down Itachi (read: fulfilling his life goal). They exchanged illusions, but that appeared to be initiated by Itachi. After that, I recall there being a close quarters exchange. 



> Lastly, genjutsu would still work, and of course, releasing Orochimaru would definitely work, as white snake toxin is an easy solution to getting around the Raikage durability.



I agree that this could work, though Sasuke better be sure to kill him and not just inflict pain.


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## StickaStick (May 10, 2015)

How does Sasuke hurt Sandaime? Sandaime outlasts worst case scenario.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Wasn't this supposed to be against Start of Part II Sasuke?



​


Rocky said:


> Sasuke was able to evade a lunging A once by ducking under his predictable Elbow at the last possible second. He still won't be in any better of a position against the 3rd Raikage than he was against the 4th. Instead of getting his back slammed into the ground with enough force to collapse the floor he gets grabbed by the throat, and the 3rd then proceeds to shove his entire arm through Sasuke chest.



Not quite. That's after Sasuke decided to commit to a head-on engagement with A. We saw plenty before that showing that he can maneuver around v1 A and piss away time if he wants to.​


Rocky said:


> A bunch of close quarters stuff happened before Sasuke went for Kirin.



Not really. He went in to whisper sweet nothings into Naruto's ear, then he zapped everybody with his Chidori Nagashi, and then he decided to kill them all with Kirin. Pretty straightforward.​


Rocky said:


> I also don't know where you got that he couldn't evade it, or at least dodge the brunt of it. The entire point of the Raiton cloak is to enhance reflexes, meaning that Sandaime'd likely be able to flicker far enough away that he wasn't hit directly.



Raiton reflexes are not far above, if at all above, Itachi's Sharingan and mental perception. If Sasuke designed the technique knowing Itachi couldn't avoid it, then neither can v1 A.​


Rocky said:


> Actually, he might be able to just tank it too. Rasenshuriken's damage is more precise than Kirin's and has the elemental advantage over Sandaime's Raiton armor, and that couldn't even put the guy down.



It removed the armor entirely, but couldn't hurt his body. We've seen electric techniques null through electric armor, and as stated before, Kirin is much more powerful.​


Rocky said:


> Also let's not forget that Kirin was introduced as not being able to break through....what was it now...skeletal Susano'o?



Dat Yata Mirror tho.​


Rocky said:


> We saw against Danzo that Sasuke was still capable of tactical thinking. He didn't fight against A or B up close because he was insane, he did so because that's his _preferred range._



Isn't my point validated by you having to go to the end of the Danzo fight to find an example of Sasuke being tactically wise? His nugget of genius against Danzo was the exception to a trend.

Hebi Sasuke was far less rash and far more calculating in his fights against Orochimaru, Deidara and Itachi.​


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## Empathy (May 10, 2015)

I think it's a close, at least high difficulty fight no matter who wins for reasons Strategos already stated. I also think that's fitting, for I believe the two characters operate closely within the same tier—Hebi Sasuke I think is epidemically underrated. Sasuke's in a similar position that _Sennin_ Naruto was against the Sandaime Raikage, in that he's up against a faster and more dangerous adversary up close, but still has the speed and reflexes because of precognition, to be able to react to and keep up with his physically superior opponent; only Sasuke has inferior speed and inferior precognition to Naruto, although his pseudo-_Sennin Modo_ CS2 does help to bridge that gap. It's not a substantial disparity between Hebi Sasuke and _Sennin_ Naruto, but it's enough that it be acknowledged. Obviously, the situation is even more similar to MS Sasuke against version one A, to whom Naruto directly compared the Sandaime's speed to his son's version one _shunshin_. 

Sasuke stated the reason he could repeatedly counter version one Bee's _Rariatto_ attempts was due to its linear nature (this also explains his skewering against base Bee's _Akurobatto_). He didn't mention that against A, but it was visually apparent the same was the case. Likewise, the Sandaime's _Nukite_ should be circumvented by Sasuke similarly, despite Sasuke being slower. As others have stated, even if Sasuke slips up, his _Orochimaru no Kawarimi_ should buy him a few extra chances. Aoda and Manda won't be that useful to hide behind, for the Raikage would soon turn them into stylish boots or maybe a tasteful handbag. I definitely believe Sasuke has the means to pull off _Kirin_. I also think that the Sandaime Raikage's durability has the tendency to be overestimated. It's not even his greatest attribute (his ultimate shield lost to his ultimate spear). He survived _Fuuton: Rasenshuriken_, but not unscathed. He just wasn't fatally injured enough to be sealed while regenerating, as he finished regenerating sooner due to it not being enough to kill him. 

Without regeneration, he would've been in far less than peak condition afterward if not for _Edo Tensei's_ healing. Still, I think the Raikage has the feats between KCM Naruto and the Hachibi to say that _Kirin_ won't kill him, but he probably won't be in great shape afterward either. I think this would put Sasuke in similar to position he was against Itachi when he barely survived _Kirin_ without using his full _Susanoo_. Albeit, _Kirin_ doesn't use much chakra, it's only good for one shot. When that fails, Sasuke's really out good options for damage even if the Raikage's been softened up. It's not like with Naruto, where he probably could beat the Raikage if he just hit him with more _Rasenshurikens_ if he isn't an Edo. Sasuke can't reproduce that level of damage a second time. Similar to Itachi, I think Sasuke would waste the rest of his chakra on failed attempts to finish the Raikage off. Genjutsu is an option, but I don't think it's a viable one against a recognizably faster opponent. 

If Sasuke diverts his focus from tracking the Raikage's movements to casting genjutsu for even a second, he's liable to be bisected. A had to be distracted and then held down by _Susanoo_ to be influenced. This puts Orochimaru in position to tag in, and he very well could finish the job for Sasuke. The outcome of this fight for me depends on a number of variables. One being that unsure if _Yamata no Jutsu_ possesses Orochimaru's neurotoxins. If so, then Orochimaru and Hebi Sasuke probably win. However, as he showed with Deidara and Itachi, Sasuke's physical ability tends to decline with his stamina getting low (low enough for Orochimaru to emerge, for example). Sasuke's injures against Deidara and Itachi leading up to those points also played a factor, as will the state of Sasuke's prospective injures against the Raikage by the time he pulls off _Kirin_ (which I do believe is an inevitability). 

The Raikage could get up after _Kirin_ and kill Sasuke during his futile attempts to finish him off before he's quite reached point where Orochimaru emerges, if Sasuke's no longer able to still keep up with him. That also depends on the Raikage's physical condition after _Kirin_ as much as it depends on Sasuke's physical condition right before _Kirin_ (if Sasuke's already very tired by the time _Kirin_ comes out, then he'll probably lose) and then before Orochimaru's arrival. In terms of lasting and attrition, the Sandaime Raikage probably deserves the slight stamina nod even after _Kirin_ due to fighting an army for three days and drawing with the Hachibi. Even if the Raikage does win, it's more due to match-up than it is the Raikage being outright stronger. Sasuke's in the unlucky position where he doesn't quite reach the precipice to kill the Sandaime Raikage with his trump card, and is unlike most other high tiers where he then can't attempt it more than once (multiple _C3s_, _Daikodans_, _Rasenshurikens_ etc.)

Also, the Sandaime Raikage would go down in a blaze of glory against MS Sasuke. He can't just shrug off _Amaterasu_ and _Susanoo_ barrages.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> We saw plenty before that showing that he can maneuver around v1 A and piss away time if he wants to.



Please do share. I do not recall Sasuke ever dodging anything A did other than the linear Erubo.



> Not really. He went in to whisper sweet nothings into Naruto's ear, then he zapped everybody with his Chidori Nagashi, and then he decided to kill them all with Kirin. Pretty straightforward.



He rushed in and attacked with his blade first, which was my entire point.



> Raiton reflexes are not far above, if at all above, Itachi's Sharingan and mental perception. If Sasuke designed the technique knowing Itachi couldn't avoid it, then neither can v1 A.



Erm, in case you forgot, Itachi was blind and...well..basically dead at that point. He was slow enough to where he was getting tagged by pleb-status shit like shuriken traps. 

The "Sasuke designed it to beat Itachi" doesn't mean much to me either given Sasuke's gross underestimation of Itachi overall. Sauce only beat dying Itachi in the first place because of his big bro's top tier jobbing.



> It removed the armor entirely, but couldn't hurt his body. We've seen electric techniques null through electric armor, and as stated before, Kirin is much more powerful.​



Why is Kirin so much more powerful than FRS, though?



> Dat Yata Mirror tho.



White Zetsu: "Yata Mirror is all reflecting. Totsuka is all-absorbing. Itachi is basically Jesus."

Black Zetsu: "Brah, wasn't that thing just blow to pieces by that lightning dragon thing Sasu.."

White: "Shushhhhhh. No tears. Itachi is love. Itachi is life."



> Isn't my point validated by you having to go to the end of the Danzo fight to find an example of Sasuke being tactically wise? His nugget of genius against Danzo was the exception to a trend.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke was far less rash and far more calculating in his fights against Orochimaru, Deidara and Itachi.​




Please, Sasuke was always rash, even when he was part of Hebi.

Just look at the Deidara fight. Had Obito not been dicking around, he'd have gotten up and grabbed Ssauke's neck from behind, sending him to boxland in the process. All because Sasuke went herp-derp-Shunshin-sword.​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Empathy...Hebi Sasuke is substantially weaker than Sage Mode Naruto. I mean, the gap between the two is huge. There's literally NOTHING in Sasuke's arsenal, until he got Perfect Susanoo, that can put the Sandaime down. Amaterasu is shrugged off, all of Susano'o's attacks don't even scratch him.


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## LostSelf (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hebi Sasuke was neither stupid nor arrogant. For instance, he was modest when someone mentioned him killing Orochimaru, and took every precaution possible against Itachi.
> 
> MS Sasuke, on the other hand, decided to take on the Gokage and their body guards alone. The difference is clear. One might go for CQC with a Raikage, and the other probably would not.​



Hebi Sasuke went to fight Two Akatsuki members at the same time. I wonder why he never thought he would've been fucked horribly once he had all that trouble defeating Deidara, if both targeted him.

I mean, he basically went with a linear Shunshin towards two S-Rank criminals who he didn't even know if were stronger than Itachi or not.

He was also arrogant enough to face Kyuubi, and to go face Naruto and his team when the last thing he knew of Naruto was how much troubles he had defeating him. Now adding a Jounin and two other Chunnin with Naruto himself.

He is not as arrogant as he was with MS, but that might've been due to his power level and not because of modesty. Once he got MS, he was more free to be more arrogant yet.

Wich probably was the reason he was so sure of himself when he decided to take on Naruto and co. Because he might've felt powerful enough due to the training he did.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> White Zetsu: "Yata Mirror is all reflecting. Totsuka is all-absorbing. Itachi is basically Jesus."
> 
> Black Zetsu: "Brah, wasn't that thing just blow to pieces by that lightning dragon thing Sasu.."
> 
> White: "Shushhhhhh. No tears. Itachi is love. Itachi is life."



Kirin is natural lightning, so uniquely well suited for Yata.

"Itachi is love. Itachi is life." is going in my sig. Eternal thanks.


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## ShadoLord (May 10, 2015)

Am i missing something, what would hebi Sasuke do anything to the 3rd Raikage's defense? Not that he can even react properly against the Raikage. Stomps.


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## Empathy (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Empathy...Hebi Sasuke is substantially weaker than Sage Mode Naruto. I mean, the gap between the two is huge. There's literally NOTHING in Sasuke's arsenal, until he got Perfect Susanoo, that can put the Sandaime down. Amaterasu is shrugged off, all of Susano'o's attacks don't even scratch him.



Eh, I think it's the difference between a mid and high Kage. Not a ton different than Hebi Sasuke putting up a believable fight against Itachi, or Onoki versus Muu, or to a lesser extent _Sennin_ Jiraiya/Naruto versus Pain. _Jotai Ni_ was rectonned to pseduo _Sennin Modo_, and I acknowledged a disparity between speed and precognition due to that distinction. Why is _Amaterasu_ shrugged off? Because A could ignore a small amount on his arm when Sasuke wasn't focusing or pinpointing it? _Amaterasu_ does very slow damage when it isn't being concentrated on. Itachi while focusing _Amaterasu_ could burn a sizable hole through a fire-resistant toad esophagus without even having to slow down in mid-sprint. Yet his stray flames were barely damaging the trees around the Uchiha hideout. Sasuke could focus the flames to make the Hachibi and even Juubi writhe in pain. 

Yet those same flames barely damaged Karin when they weren't being concentrated on. The Sandaime isn't as fast as his son's version two, so _Amaterasu_ will connect every time. The Sandaime fought a wild Hachibi to a draw, and although the Hachibi is more squishy, his endurance is at least on par. It's debatable if the Raikage survived a _Bijuudama_, or if he even could. It wasn't shown in the flashback and wild bijuu don't seem to resort to _Bijuudama_ often. KCM Naruto also implied his _Bijuudama_ would be enough to defeat him. It shouldn't require Hashirama-level attacks to take down a high tier like the Raikage when again, it's not even his greatest attribute and he wasn't completely uninjured by _Rasenshuriken_. We know for a fact though, that the Hachibi tanked his own _Bijuudama_ more than once, yet thrashed in pain from an _Amaterasu_ inferno and was put down by it after a while. 

If Sasuke piles on with a similar volume of wildfire on the much smaller Raikage, it's first going to surround and blind him, as he can't guard his eyes. The Raikage will be stumbling around blind (and although he's durable, it's not like he wouldn't flinch at having eyes incinerated) and only be met with more inferno. Although, his _Susanoo_ can't pierce him, it isn't like he wouldn't feel the slugs hitting him and beating him back. It was implied that Madara's same level of _Susanoo_ could kill the Hachibi. The _Nukite's_ best feat is breaching the Raikage's own skin, but he was damaged by _Rasenshuriken_. He'll breach _Susanoo_, but not like a hot knife through butter and there's clear precedent that Sasuke could keep up with the Raikage's movements even if he weren't swinging blind. Throughout that, Sasuke would only further pile on more flame and continue pounding him with _Susanoo_. The Raikage's endurance is probably lower than the Hachibi's and he'd go down like a mad dog. He'll just last a little longer than most others.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Eh, I think it's the difference between a mid and high Kage. Not a ton different than Hebi Sasuke putting up a believable fight against Itachi, or Onoki versus Muu, or to a lesser extent _Sennin_ Jiraiya/Naruto versus Pain. _Jotai Ni_ was rectonned to pseduo _Sennin Modo_, and I acknowledged a disparity between speed and precognition due to that distinction. Why is _Amaterasu_ shrugged off? Because A could ignore a small amount on his arm when Sasuke wasn't focusing or pinpointing it? _Amaterasu_ does very slow damage when it isn't being concentrated on. Itachi while focusing _Amaterasu_ could burn a sizable hole through a fire-resistant toad esophagus without even having to slow down in mid-sprint. Yet his stray flames were barely damaging the trees around the Uchiha hideout. Sasuke could focus the flames to make the Hachibi and even Juubi writhe in pain.


Amaterasu is literally useless against high level shinobi, Empathy. Its feats suck. It could barely burn through A's inferior Raiton no Yoroi, and even then it couldn't even spread. 

We don't know HOW Amaterasu burned through the toad's throat. Notice how it was _off screen_ and that there was a visible WEAK POINT in the Gama Shiburi since it couldn't cover the entirety of the window.

And the gap between Sage Mode Naruto and Hebi Sasuke _is_ huge. Hell Sage Mode Naruto is arguably as powerful as Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke from all of his high level feats. Hebi Sasuke isn't even remotely impressive anymore. And no, Cursed Seal isn't a 'pseudo Sage Mode', its far inferior to the boosts Sage Mode gives the user, inferior to even an incomplete Sage Mode than Jiraiya has. Hell it doesn't even give the user Sensing!


> Yet those same flames barely damaged Karin when they weren't being concentrated on. The Sandaime isn't as fast as his son's version two, so _Amaterasu_ will connect every time. The Sandaime fought a wild Hachibi to a draw, and although the Hachibi is more squishy, his endurance is at least on par. It's debatable if the Raikage survived a _Bijuudama_, or if he even could. It wasn't shown in the flashback and wild bijuu don't seem to resort to _Bijuudama_ often. KCM Naruto also implied his _Bijuudama_ would be enough to defeat him. It shouldn't require Hashirama-level attacks to take down a high tier like the Raikage when again, it's not even his greatest attribute and he wasn't completely uninjured by _Rasenshuriken_. We know for a fact though, that the Hachibi tanked his own _Bijuudama_ more than once, yet thrashed in pain from an _Amaterasu_ inferno and was put down by it after a while.


1. Gyuki didn't even know what damaged the Sandaime Raikage, he assumed that one of his Bijudama did so, but was wrong. Its quite clear it was made that the only thing that could hurt the Sandaime Raikage was his own attack.
2. Gyuki tanked his own Bijudama, yet he was *putting on an act for Sasuke.* Bee had already made his escape.

You're hyping up Amaterasu when it has some of the worse feats in the ENTIRE manga. Couldn't burn Karin. Couldn't burn a fodder Samura's armor. Couldn't damage a armorless Madara. Could be deflected by fucking chakra stakes. Even Sasuke himself realized how useless it was at the end of the manga.


> If Sasuke piles on with a similar volume of wildfire on the much smaller Raikage, it's first going to surround and blind him, as he can't guard his eyes. The Raikage will be stumbling around blind (and although he's durable, it's not like he wouldn't flinch at having eyes incinerated) and only be met with more inferno. Although, his _Susanoo_ can't pierce him, it isn't like he wouldn't feel the slugs hitting him and beating him back. It was implied that Madara's same level of _Susanoo_ could kill the Hachibi. The _Nukite's_ best feat is breaching the Raikage's own skin, but he was damaged by _Rasenshuriken_. He'll breach _Susanoo_, but not like a hot knife through butter and there's clear precedent that Sasuke could keep up with the Raikage's movements even if he weren't swinging blind. Throughout that, Sasuke would only further pile on more flame and continue pounding him with _Susanoo_. The Raikage's endurance is probably lower than the Hachibi's and he'd go down like a mad dog. He'll just last a little longer than most others.


Rasenshuriken didn't even cause any damage on the Sandaime Raikage. He was completely and utterly undamaged. Amaterasu wouldn't do a damn thing on him. Stop bringing up what happened to Gyuki: that was an ACT to make Sasuke think he won. He's gotten burned by Lava and it didn't do much else remember?

You are kind of overestimating Sasuke in all versions now, man.


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## Empathy (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu is literally useless against high level shinobi, Empathy. Its feats suck. It could barely burn through A's inferior Raiton no Yoroi, and even then it couldn't even spread.
> 
> We don't know HOW Amaterasu burned through the toad's throat. Notice how it was _off screen_ and that there was a visible WEAK POINT in the Gama Shiburi since it couldn't cover the entirety of the window.



You're only assuming of a unmentioned weak point because it's convenient to you. Jiraiya would've mentioned something instead of marveling at the flames capability to get past something that should've been well-suited at stopping them. They were sprinted toward a dead-end and by the time Jiraiya rounds the corner, there's a giant hole in what he was using to contain them. What discreet machinations could you possibly contrive them having the opportunity to do? The author was just trying to keep the jutsu's mechanics ambiguous for the time. I mean obviously to get out they must've cheated somehow, seeing as _Amaterasu_ is just so pathetic. 



> And the gap between Sage Mode Naruto and Hebi Sasuke _is_ huge. *Hell Sage Mode Naruto is arguably as powerful as Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke from all of his high level feats*. Hebi Sasuke isn't even remotely impressive anymore.



If you're arguing poorly, then sure. Otherwise, KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke are around the same level. MS Sasuke and SM Naruto are a tad under.



> 1. Gyuki didn't even know what damaged the Sandaime Raikage, he assumed that one of his Bijudama did so, but was wrong. Its quite clear it was made that the only thing that could hurt the Sandaime Raikage was his own attack.



He couldn't remember if he used it or not. If he was damaged by _Rasenshuriken_, then he isn't brushing off _Bijuudama_. How did Raikage get to the point where he fell on his own attack in the first place, if his own attack is the only thing that can hurt him?



> 2. Gyuki tanked his own Bijudama, yet he was *putting on an act for Sasuke.* Bee had already made his escape.



And was the Juubi only faking it too, so that it wouldn't hurt Sasuke's self-esteem? But I'm sure that was all Naruto's heavy lifting instead, with Sasuke just adding superfluous sprinkles toward the end. The Hachibi barely knew of Bee's intentions and started screaming before Sasuke even lopped off a tentacle (Bee said he only thought of it at that moment). Bee marveled about how strong Sasuke was to himself afterward, but ostensibly he was really only impressed by base Sasuke waving his sword around, where he nearly killed him twice. Anytime _Amaterasu_ appears to do something impressive, it's merely a farce to cover the true ineptitude beneath the surface. 



> You're hyping up Amaterasu when it has some of the worse feats in the ENTIRE manga. Couldn't burn Karin. Couldn't burn a fodder Samura's armor. Couldn't damage a armorless Madara. Could be deflected by fucking chakra stakes.



I mentioned in my post that it burns slowly when unfocused, so why bring it up? I said it hardly burned Karin and tree leaves. It doesn't do much damage when not being pinpointed and that was exactly my point. When the flames are focused however, they make bijuus scream. It took out Nagato's summons, took off his limbs, at least forced A to lose his arm, took Naruto's arm, burned up half of Sasuke's natural-energy-enhanced body pretty fast, quickly opened up a hole in Jiraiya's toad esophagus, and neutralized Kaguya's ice dimension. It's secondary to _Susanoo_, so of course it's not going to be used as the grand-finale finisher often.



> Even Sasuke himself realized how useless it was at the end of the manga.



So much so that he used it to help take off Naruto's arm and save himself and Naruto from Kaguya's ice dimension, also invalidating that card for her.



> Rasenshuriken didn't even cause any damage on the Sandaime Raikage. He was completely and utterly undamaged. Amaterasu wouldn't do a damn thing on him. Stop bringing up what happened to Gyuki: that was an ACT to make Sasuke think he won. He's gotten burned by Lava and it didn't do much else remember?



And he was laying flat on his back, because he was bored to sleep at how unscathed he was? And the only reason everyone tried to seal him then was because they all need glasses and can't recognize when someone is, "_completely and utterly undamaged_." He was injured, just not enough to kill him. Even Temari's jutsu at least put a scratch on him. Why would a minor character like Roshi's yoton jutsu cause more damage than _Amaterasu_?


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## Trojan (May 10, 2015)

The Raikage curfodderstomps him.


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## Lawrence777 (May 10, 2015)

Strategos, doesn't this break your cardinal rule of Hebi Sasuke losing to anyone who's "Eight foot tall and black"  ?


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## Trojan (May 10, 2015)

Why can't the Raikage's attack cut Kirin (which won't happen anyway)?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 10, 2015)

Third would beat him without too much trouble. He casually dances with FRS speed projectiles so anything sasuke throws would be dodged pretty easily and up close well...lets not go there. Manda and Aoda gets beheaded so they ain't turning the tides in anyway.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Empathy said:


> You're only assuming of a unmentioned weak point because it's convenient to you. Jiraiya would've mentioned something instead of marveling at the flames capability to get past something that should've been well-suited at stopping them. They were sprinted toward a dead-end and by the time Jiraiya rounds the corner, there's a giant hole in what he was using to contain them. What discreet machinations could you possibly contrive them having the opportunity to do? The author was just trying to keep the jutsu's mechanics ambiguous for the time. I mean obviously to get out they must've cheated somehow, seeing as _Amaterasu_ is just so pathetic.


Dude, a window was there, it hadn't been completely covered by Gama Shiburi. There was an obvious weakpoint Jiraiya wasn't aware of. And even if it wasn't, that high feat is countered by numerous lower level ones.




> If you're arguing poorly, then sure. Otherwise, KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke are around the same level. MS Sasuke and SM Naruto are a tad under.


Sage Mode Naruto has feats that put him on the same level of EMS Sasuke minus Perfect Susanoo. He continuously improved while MS Sasuke stayed static. 




> He couldn't remember if he used it or not. If he was damaged by _Rasenshuriken_, then he isn't brushing off _Bijuudama_. How did Raikage get to the point where he fell on his own attack in the first place, if his own attack is the only thing that can hurt him?


Except Rasenshuriken didn't damage the Sandaime Raikage. Naruto himself said it didn't scratch him. Gyuki said he used a Bijudama, just couldn't remember if it was his attack that damaged the Sandaime Raikage. The Sandaime Raikage got to that point via EXHAUSTION, both him and Gyuki collapsed at the same time with their jutsus still active and the Sandaime had stabbed himself. 

The manga made it quite clear Empathy, only the Sandaime's one-finger Jigokuzuki could damage him. The Ultimate Spear and Ultimate Shield connundrum, remember?


> And was the Juubi only faking it too, so that it wouldn't hurt Sasuke's self-esteem? But I'm sure that was all Naruto's heavy lifting instead, with Sasuke just adding superfluous sprinkles toward the end. The Hachibi barely knew of Bee's intentions and started screaming before Sasuke even lopped off a tentacle (Bee said he only thought of it at that moment). Bee marveled about how strong Sasuke was to himself afterward, but ostensibly he was really only impressed by base Sasuke waving his sword around, where he nearly killed him twice. Anytime _Amaterasu_ appears to do something impressive, it's merely a farce to cover the true ineptitude beneath the surface.


Sasuke's Amaterasu had been enhanced by a Boss Summon Sized Rasenshuriken, Empathy. It was never his power alone that hurt the Juubi. And not only that the Juubi seemed more IRRITATED with it than actually damaged, given how effortlessly it dealt with the Futon enhanced black flames.

Gyuki was aware of Bee's plan. They share the same mental real-estate Empathy. It was all an act to throw Sasuke off. Amaterasu has never truly been impressive.


> I mentioned in my post that it burns slowly when unfocused, so why bring it up? I said it hardly burned Karin and tree leaves. It doesn't do much damage when not being pinpointed and that was exactly my point. When the flames are focused however, they make bijuus scream. It took out Nagato's summons, took off his limbs, at least forced A to lose his arm, took Naruto's arm, burned up half of Sasuke's natural-energy-enhanced body pretty fast, quickly opened up a hole in Jiraiya's toad esophagus, and neutralized Kaguya's ice dimension. It's secondary to _Susanoo_, so of course it's not going to be used as the grand-finale finisher often.


Focused or unfocused, it didn't matter. Madara and even Sasuke himself said the jutsu was only good for distractions. When the flames are 'focused' Gyuki was acting and Juubi soon turns to irritation on the Futon enhanced flames. Nagato effortlessly dealt with Amaterasu when he wanted to, and if he hadn't allowed himself to be hit the Cerberus would still be there. A chopped off his arm without any trouble. Sasuke had already performed a body switch so that skin wasn't enhanced. The toad esophagus had a natural weak point with the window. And it didn't take off Naruto's arm, it was the fucking explosion from both their attacks that took it off. 

You're overestimating Amaterasu greatly.


> So much so that he used it to help take off Naruto's arm and save himself and Naruto from Kaguya's ice dimension, also invalidating that card for her.


No, he didn't use it to take off Naruto's arm. That was the EXPLOSION from the Enton: Chidori and Yin Kurama Powered Rasengan. Stop acting like Amaterasu does these things alone when it doesn't. And of course its useful in a FUCKING ICE DIMENSION,fire melts ice, ANY fire would have done it.




> And he was laying flat on his back, because he was bored to sleep at how unscathed he was? And the only reason everyone tried to seal him then was because they all need glasses and can't recognize when someone is, "_completely and utterly undamaged_." He was injured, just not enough to kill him.


Naruto: That can't be...did the Rasenshuriken have no effect?

close up of his body. He's undamaged. Completely and utterly

Naruto: The Rasenshuriken didn't even put a scratch on him!

The manga emphasized over and over again that the Sandaime Raikage could only be truly damaged by his own technique and nothing else.


> Even Temari's jutsu at least put a scratch on him.


It just knocked him down and cut his outfit, he truly wasn't damaged.


> Why would a minor character like Roshi's yoton jutsu cause more damage than _Amaterasu_?


Since Roshi was using fucking Biju empowered Lava?


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

What's Hebi Sasuke going to do when he does manage to evade the Sandaime Raikage?

 Chidori? That's literally his best shot and even that won't do anything to Sandaime Raikage, not to mention that the 3rd Raikage has the stamina to compete with a Bijuu and fight for 3 days while Hebi Sasuke's is only a solid 3.5.

 Worst-case Scenario, Sandaime Raikage would have to outlast Hebi Sasuke which shouldn't be hard, especially with the extra chakra consumed by resorting to Senjutsu enhancements.

 Are people seriously suggesting that War Arc SM Naruto is even comparable to Hebi Sasuke? I don't even ...


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke isn't fast enough to effectively out maneuver Sandaime Raikage or MS Sasuke would've been capable of doing so against Base Bee or V1 Bee. You could argue that MS Sasuke lacks Senjutsu enhancements, but even CS2 arguably hasn't provided any substantial speed boosts.


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## Bonly (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...Kirin doesn't even scratch him, especially since the Rasenshuriken couldn't do diddly squat.



When you show me proof that Kirin does nothing then I'll think about it.



> Chidori could barely get through A's Raiton no Yoroi, yet its supposed to get through the Sandaime's?



Sasuke has the curse seal which is a pseudo SM, using the fact that a normal Chidori barely got through A's armor holds little weight to suggest a Senjutsu enhanced black Chidori doesn't have a chance to get to the Sandaime.


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## Bonly (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hebi Sasuke isn't fast enough to effectively out maneuver Sandaime Raikage or MS Sasuke would've been capable of doing so against Base Bee or V1 Bee.You could argue that MS Sasuke lacks Senjutsu enhancements, but even CS2 arguably hasn't provided any substantial speed boosts.



1,2,3,4,5

Only time Sasuke had problems keeping up with B was when B either blindsided him or during his(B's) seven swords dance and this was a Sasuke without his CS and he wasn't fully healed from his fight with Itachi. So unless the Sandaime start moving like B does when he does his seven swords dance, Sasuke should be able to out maneuver the Sandaime.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> We don't know HOW Amaterasu burned through the toad's throat.



Because Itachi was the weakness to that jutsu. (And all jutsu.)

That's how.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 10, 2015)

Kirin kills that Raikage or at least puts him out of commision. The problem is getting it off though.

Raikage has the edge here, as Sasuke's regular offense isn't doing anything to him. He can bumrush Sasuke without worrying about getting injured, they trade hits, Sasuke dies.

Sasuke can pull it off if he plays a perfect game, but Raikage can take this fight with an average game.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kirin kills that Raikage or at least puts him out of commision. The problem is getting it off though.
> 
> Raikage has the edge here, as Sasuke's regular offense isn't doing anything to him. He can bumrush Sasuke without worrying about getting injured, they trade hits, Sasuke dies.
> 
> Sasuke can pull it off if he plays a perfect game, but Raikage can take this fight with an average game.



I think you and others are underestimating a critical element here: sight-blockers (katons, snakes, etc.) and the Raikage's lack of sensing, as well as the nearby forest to conceal himself in.​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> When you show me proof that Kirin does nothing then I'll think about it.


Kirin is four times less powerful than a Rasenshuriken, and unlike the Rasenshuriken, it doesn't have the elemental advantage.




> Sasuke has the curse seal which is a pseudo SM, using the fact that a normal Chidori barely got through A's armor holds little weight to suggest a Senjutsu enhanced black Chidori doesn't have a chance to get to the Sandaime.


The Cursed Seal isn't even a psuedo Sage Mode. It has a small amount of Natural Energy in it, nothing close to a true Sage Mode.And the Chidori bounces right off the Sandaime's skin. It can do NOTHING against him.

WHy are you wanking Sasuke? Is it because of the Itachi avatar change? The whole 'if Sasuke could beat him, Itachi could' mentality?


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

I really don't know which specific feat puts Kirin so far above FRS that it'd deal fatal damage to Sandaime when the latter couldn't even with the wind element negating the 3rd's armor. 

It's also likely that A3 could avoid being hit in the skull with the dragon if he activates Shunshin the moment Sasuke brings his arm down. With the cloak stimulating his reflexes, he could likely get far enough away so that he'd only be taking splash damage.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

I'm confused as to why the feat-difference has to be explained. The scale of damage done by Kirin far greater than that of FRS. Kirin destroyed a mountain thousands of times larger than the FRS AoE.

And the point about Kirin being unavoidable was hammered home _ad nauseum_. So while certain ninja can avoid it, (like Minato and v2 A) the v1 Raikage with a normal shunshin is not one of them.​


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## Bonly (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kirin is four times less powerful than a Rasenshuriken, and unlike the Rasenshuriken, it doesn't have the elemental advantage.



When you show the manga stating such then I'll agree.



> The Cursed Seal isn't even a psuedo Sage Mode. It has a small amount of Natural Energy in it, nothing close to a true Sage Mode.And the Chidori bounces right off the Sandaime's skin. It can do NOTHING against him.



Wow your doing such a great job provide a case for why it just bounces off . If you're not gonna bring anything useful to the table and just wanna waste my time then I'm not gonna reply back. 



> WHy are you wanking Sasuke?



Why do you suck Naruto's dick?



> Is it because of the Itachi avatar change? The whole 'if Sasuke could beat him, Itachi could' mentality?



I've been saying  for  so yeah that's not the case. As I said it could go either way, I just see Sasuke being able to land Kirin for the win or for it to land enough damage to slow him down for Sasuke to get the win when the Sandaime has pretty much no knowledge on Sasuke to be a bit more likely to happen.


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## LostSelf (May 10, 2015)

But the thing is, how much more powerful it is Kirin in order to kill the Sandaime? I mean, FRS barely put him out, he stood up and kept fighting.

If Kirin is more powerful (not saying it isn't or it is), is powerful enough to seriously injure the Raikage? Because if it fails...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> When you show the manga stating such then I'll agree.


I don't need to. The evidence shows it. You love eyeballing things when it was shown that Kirin is a mere 9 megatons of power, while Rasenshuriken is 53 megatons. Its five times stronger. 




> Wow your doing such a great job provide a case for why it just bounces off . If you're not gonna bring anything useful to the table and just wanna waste my time then I'm not gonna reply back.


Rasenshuriken couldn't even scratch him. Bijudama couldn't even scratch him. So yes, Chidori DOES bounce right off. Its basic common sense. And I'm right, Cursed Seal doesn't even compare to true Sage Mode. Its inferior in EVERY fucking way. It doesn't even grant sensing abilities for god's sake.




> Why do you suck Naruto's dick?


I'm not. You're just wanking Sasuke for the sake of wanking. It took a fricking War Arc Naruto to defeat the Sandaime Raikage, a character who is far stronger than Hebi Sasuke, yet...Hebi Sasuke wins because YOU say so in all of your downplaying?




> I've been saying  for  so yeah that's not the case. As I said it could go either way, I just see Sasuke being able to land Kirin for the win or for it to land enough damage to slow him down for Sasuke to get the win when the Sandaime has pretty much no knowledge on Sasuke to be a bit more likely to happen.


And you've been wrong every single fucking time. Nothing in Itachi's arsenal can even scratch the Sandaime. Sasuke's Kirin is useless. ALL of his techniques are useless.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Nothing in Itachi's arsenal can even scratch the Sandaime.



Itachi's clone could  with genjutsu. 

Low diff base Itachi win. Just like with Deidara, Orochimaru, and Wind Naruto.


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## Lawrence777 (May 10, 2015)

Kirin seemed to be more impressive than FRS imo though that's just eyeballing. FRS could be spammed as well whereas Kirin was one lengthily charged massive focused strike.

I'm not sure it would kill sandaime out right but I have my doubts of him persisting through such an attack and going on to win in that condition afterward. But that's only if Sasuke got it off successfully.


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think you and others are underestimating a critical element here: sight-blockers (katons, snakes, etc.) and the Raikage's lack of sensing, as well as the nearby forest to conceal himself in.​



 Sight blocker such as Katon and Snakes are laughable.

 Snakes are easily killed by Nukite that can actually crush a Doton Wall formed by an entire Shinobi Division that was protected by an immense amount of Rubber and Katon are easily countered by Nukite as well which will allow him to penetrate through the Katon.

 @Bonly

 Great. The first 3 examples are were against a Nonchalant Bee who admitted to have underestimated Sasuke. And no, Base Bee still managed to pace himself with MS Sasuke, enough to push Sasuke back and not leave him any leeway to escape. That makes it difficult for me to believe he can escape Sandaime Raikage's range, especially when Sasuke failed to do so against Base Bee and V1 Bee.

 I already realize that MS Sasuke was tired from his fight with Itachi, however, I'm not inclined that his state was so battered that he would be able to outmaneuvered V1 Bee if he had fully recovered. Furthermore, why should I expect him to be able to outmaneuver Sandaime Raikage who's faster than V1 Bee when KCM Naruto struggled out-maneuvering V1 Ei? It'd make no sense for MS Sasuke who's far slower than KCM Naruto to out-maneuver someone that KCM Naruto could not.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm confused as to why the feat-difference has to be explained. The scale of damage done by Kirin far greater than that of FRS. Kirin destroyed a mountain thousands of times larger than the FRS AoE.



FRS can destroy a house in one go. Can Ippon Nukite destroy a house in one go? ck



> And the point about Kirin being unavoidable was hammered home _ad nauseum_. So while certain ninja can avoid it, (like Minato and v2 A) the v1 Raikage with a normal shunshin is not one of them.



Don't contradict yourself. If Kirin was really _unavoidable_, then _nobody_ is avoiding it. Not Sandaime Raikage, or Minato, or A, or Kaguya, or the Ramen Guy, or EoS Naruto..._nobody._

You know that is silly, and connecting the dots isn't hard. It was _hyperbole._ Kirin's speed was heavily hyped, so it would take something extraordinary to evade it. The 3rd Raikage doesn't have super speed hype like his son, but he still bears a cloak that stimulates his synapses with lightning. 

All I'm saying is that he avoids a critical hit with the body flicker, not that he dodges the whole thing. Most shinobi don't have the reflexes to do anything in the time between the lowering of Sasuke's hand and the lightning hitting them in the face, _buuuuut_ armor that heightens reactions might help with that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> FRS can destroy a house in one go. Can Ippon Nukite destroy a house in one go? ck


Not to mention that when FRS exploded, it took up half a mountain range. When it's not in a wind dome, it has a massive range of explosive power, larger than Kirin. Hence why its 5 times stronger.


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## Ashi (May 10, 2015)

I gotta give to the Uchihatards for actually proposing a character below SM Naruto could actually beat someone who gave KCM Naruto trouble


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## Bonly (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't need to. The evidence shows it. You love eyeballing things when it was shown that Kirin is a mere 9 megatons of power, while Rasenshuriken is 53 megatons. Its five times stronger.



And yet you fail to show where the manga gave this megatons ranking,oh wait they don't exist. 



> Rasenshuriken couldn't even scratch him.



The Sandaime Raikage is shown with multiple cracks on his body after being hit by Naruto's FRS so yeah it could "scratch him".



> Bijudama couldn't even scratch him.



There's no proof that he was even hit by A Bijuudama. 

Naruto "How did you make that wound on his chest"

Gyuki said "Wasn't it my Bijuudama? NO...What was it again"

Gyuki isn't even sure if his Bijuudama landed on the Sandaime so unless you can show me what happened off panel(which you can't), your claim is baseless as far as I'm concerned. 



> So yes, Chidori DOES bounce right off. Its basic common sense.



So far what your basing your "common sense" doesn't hold up much.



> And I'm right, Cursed Seal doesn't even compare to true Sage Mode. Its inferior in EVERY fucking way. It doesn't even grant sensing abilities for god's sake.



When Sasuke first used the three tome Sharingan he said "My body is the same as when it was influenced by the curse seal?" which kinda hints that it grants him some kind of danger sensing or something of that nature. Otherwise it boosts a persons jutsu like SM, gives the user increase durability, ect. The power of all the things it increase isn't on the same level as what Sm grants a person but the things SM grants a person is also seen in a persons CS for the most part.



> I'm not.



Well shit I hope none of your love ones are around you for when god strikes you down with lighting for the amount of bullshit here.



> You're just wanking Sasuke for the sake of wanking.



I''ve been doing it for a few years, draw a bridge and get over it




> And you've been wrong every single fucking time. Nothing in Itachi's arsenal can even scratch the Sandaime.



El-Oh-El. Ama is gonna end the Sandaime, with the aid of genjutsu it's an easier task unless he tricks the Sandaime into hurting himself which is fine just as well.



> Sasuke's Kirin is useless. ALL of his techniques are useless.



And when you prove it i'll again, until then Kirin is gonna hurt the Sandaime as far as I'm concerned as nothing has made me think otherwise in the manga.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sight blocker such as Katon and Snakes are laughable.
> 
> Snakes are easily killed by Nukite that can actually crush a Doton Wall formed by an entire Shinobi Division that was protected by an immense amount of Rubber and Katon are easily countered by Nukite as well which will allow him to penetrate through the Katon.



I don't think you understand the point of sight blockers.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Don't contradict yourself. If Kirin was really _unavoidable_, then _nobody_ is avoiding it. Not Sandaime Raikage, or Minato, or A, or Kaguya, or the Ramen Guy, or EoS Naruto..._nobody._
> 
> You know that is silly, and connecting the dots isn't hard.* It was hyperbole.*



No shit. But that doesn't mean that the hyperbole isn't based on something solid enough for _normal shunshin jutsu_ to not be an effective means of evasion regardless of knowing its coming. 

You might as well say that Hebi Sasuke can avoid Kirin himself since his precog would pick up the hand-movement before it happened, and thus before the Raikage's heightened reflexes react to it.

And something tells me that if Hebi Sasuke thought he could evade his own attack with precog and a shunshin, then he wouldn't be counting on it as a trump to kill the faster and more reactive Itachi.​


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think you understand the point of sight blockers.



 Is it really going to matter when Sandaime Raikage can pummel through them and tank anything Sasuke has excluding Kirin?


----------



## Turrin (May 10, 2015)

I think what this comes down to is Hebi-Sasuke has to play a perfect game just to have a chance to win. He's fast enough where can react and evade Sandaime's attacks if his focus is on doing so, but if he goes on the attack, he exposes himself to being taken down by hell bringer when his attack is completely ineffectual against Sandaime. And if even if that doesn't happen Sasuke can't afford to make a single misstep the entire match in how he avoids Sandaime's attacks or it's over. If he can do that and eventually get to the point of prepping Kirin and even than he may still fail if Kirin doesn't do sufficient enough damage to Sandaime. So overall Sandaime's odds are better and that's even with one of his strongest weapons restricted [Amber-Jar].  With full knowledge Sasuke's odds would increase a-lot though.

Sandaime is overall the stronger shinobi, though I think Hebi-Sasuke is rated weirdly on these forums. People ether greatly overestimate him by placing him as >= Sannin and only behind Itachi due to S4 Susano'o, or they place him as being relative fodder compared to characters like these. In reality I think he can put up a decent fight against opponents like these and might even be able to pull out conditional victories, but he's simply somewhat weaker overall. Basically the difference between being Mid/High-Kage and Low/Mid-Kage.


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## Trojan (May 10, 2015)

Sasuke has never been able to use Kirin outside of that battle because of the huge amount of Amatersu. Thinking he can do it now is ridiculous. Not as if he even going to last that long to begin with, as the 3rd will fodderstomps him anyway. :/

And we know that Raikiri can cut the lightning, so it's not that far away that the 3rd can cut Kirin even IF (huge ass IF) it happened. In addition, we have seen base A surviving the speed of light and being teleported by the lightning as well, and the 3rd should be even tougher.


----------



## Bonly (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> @Bonly
> 
> Great. The first 3 examples are were against a Nonchalant Bee who admitted to have underestimated Sasuke.



Glad you agree that Sasuke did canonly out maneuver B when you hinted that he didn't when you said "MS Sasuke would've been capable of doing so against Base Bee or V1 Bee.".



> And no, Base Bee still managed to pace himself with MS Sasuke, enough to push Sasuke back and not leave him any leeway to escape. That makes it difficult for me to believe he can escape Sandaime Raikage's range, especially when Sasuke failed to do so against Base Bee and V1 Bee.



You find it difficult to believe because you keep acting like that constantly happened. The only time it happened was when B used his seven swords dance which quite the unorthodox fighting style(kinda like how Kimi was fast enough to react to Base Lee but had a harder time dealing with drunk Lee) so unless he Sandaime moves in the same fashion(which we have zero hints that he does), he'll should out-maneuvered when Sasuke has a 4.5 in speed which only gets faster when he uses the CS.



> I already realize that MS Sasuke was tired from his fight with Itachi, however, I'm not inclined that his state was so battered that he would be able to outmaneuvered V1 Bee if he had fully recovered. Furthermore, why should I expect him to be able to outmaneuver Sandaime Raikage who's faster than V1 Bee when KCM Naruto struggled out-maneuvering V1 Ei? It'd make no sense for MS Sasuke who's far slower than KCM Naruto to out-maneuver someone that KCM Naruto could not.



Did you not see the Naruto vs Sasuke VoTE fight in part one? When Naruto was using KN0, Naruto was blitzing Sasuke around and throwing him against a way and what not. But what happens when Sasuke gets the Sharingan? He avoids all of Naruto's strikes by out maneuvering him and ends up kicking Naruto's ass, hell Sasuke even managed to dodge one of KN1 Naruto's strikes and was only hit because the chakra had a mind of it's own and as we all know KN1>KN0>VoTE Sasuke when it comes to speed.

Now did Sasuke magically get faster when his third tome popped up? No, but his reactions were quicker which allowed him to dodge the attacks of someone faster then him. So yes it actually does make sense that MS Sasuke who is slower then KCM Naruto can out-maneuver someone that KCM Naruto can't, well a KCM Naruto whose not at full power since that's the one that went against the Sandaime.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Is it really going to matter when Sandaime Raikage can pummel through them and tank anything Sasuke has excluding Kirin?



He definitely can mow through them, but he'll lose sight of Sasuke in those few seconds, and Sasuke can then shunshin and hide from the physically superior opponent while Kirin forms.

We saw Sasuke do something similar against Itachi by rebirthing out of sight, and then calmly setting up Kirin without pressure. There's no reason to think he wouldn't/couldn't here.​


Turrin said:


> People ether greatly overestimate him by placing him as >= Sannin



He was indicated to be, given that he was a fused character, and he confidently went after Itachi after stating that it was impossible for Orochimaru or himself (separately) to kill Itachi. Implication being:

Hebi Sasuke > Itachi (assumed) > Orochimaru > Pre-fusion Sasuke​


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## ATastyMuffin (May 10, 2015)

lol at Kirin being ten times stronger than FRS

Calcs contradict such a statement; in fact they peg FRS as being much, _much_, stronger.

Anyways, Sasuke gets cut in half.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

Ok. I think 50% of that Kirin would actually kill Kakuzu.​


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## ATastyMuffin (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Something makes me think 50% of that Kirin would actually kill Kakuzu, regardless if he had all his hearts or not.



50% incomplete FRS =/= 100% senjutsu/Kurama-chakra-powered FRS

C'mon man.


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## Trojan (May 10, 2015)

yeah, they ignore how Pain's path got erased from existing because of the wind sphere. 

Not to mention Wind > Lightning, and the Raikage still survived.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> lol at Kirin being ten times stronger than FRS
> 
> Calcs contradict such a statement; in fact they peg FRS as being much, _much_, stronger.
> 
> Anyways, Sasuke gets cut in half.


Its because SASUKE used Kirin, so of course its stronger than Naruto's FRS!


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## ATastyMuffin (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its because SASUKE used Kirin, so of course its stronger than Naruto's FRS!



That's not the reason.

Though misinformed, it's perfectly understandable why people would assume Kirin > FRS in sheer destructive capacity; visually, it does seem that way for the vast majority of FRS feats. But the only time we've ever seen FRS detonate while *not* compressed in a spherical explosion was the crater instance in the Pain fight, so it can't really be called an outlier.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> And something tells me that if Hebi Sasuke thought he could evade his own attack with precog and a shunshin, then he wouldn't be counting on it as a trump to kill the faster and more reactive Itachi.



He could probably avoid taking a direct hit, but he'd still die from the splash damage because he lacks the 3rd's body durability. Ditto for Itachi.

Do you really think Kirin is so fast that it can travel from a cloud to the ground before speedy (hypersonic) ninja at their burst speeds can travel a dozen or so meters?

Hell, do you think A's _so_ much faster than his father or Itachi that he'd get out of Kirin's mountain-buster AoE while the latter two catch the bolt right to the face?


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Do you really think Kirin is so fast that it can travel from a cloud to the ground before speedy (hypersonic) ninja at their burst speeds can travel a dozen or so meters?





The radius of Kirin is also much larger than a dozen meters.

See that teeny little building atop the huge mountain in that last link? 

Now look at teeny Sasuke on top of a teeny part of it.

Kirin is _huge_.

I don't even understand the logistics now that I'm looking at it. 

_*But don't use that against me.*_ 

Join me. And together we can rule the galaxy, as father and son.


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## Trojan (May 10, 2015)

Wasn't Zetsu near (close to?) them, and yet he was perfectly fine? 

Edit:
Zetsu's head
teeny Sasuke

even the damage of the fire dragons reached him
teeny Sasuke 

he is not that far away from itachi
teeny Sasuke

and yet
teeny Sasuke


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The radius of Kirin is also much larger than a dozen meters.
> 
> See that teeny little building atop the huge mountain in that last link?
> 
> ...



I think I thought it was smaller because the dragon turns into an actual lightning bolt in the anime.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

Well it's definitely singificantly larger in the manga. But yeah. The mountain was destroyed, but Sasuke (and Zetsu) were on the mountain and seemingly weren't affected. Dunno.​


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

They didn't take a direct hit.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He was indicated to be, given that he was a fused character,​


All Fushi Tensei does is give the user control over the victim's body. No where in the manga does it state to give the user the skill and knowledge to use the victim's techniques. The idea that Hebi-Sasuke is a fused character has and always will be fannon. He gained Orochimaru's powerful chakra, White-Snake Regeneration, thus enabling him the potential to use certain techniques Orochimaru could, that Sasuke possessed the necessary skill and knowledge to utilize, like Oral-Rebirth. Hid did not gain all of Orochimaru's abilities, which is why he could not use Orochimaru's most powerful techniques. In-fact Orochimaru himself at the time couldn't use most of his techniques, including his strongest technique, Edo-Tensei.

Orochimaru is stronger than Hebi-Sasuke, because he has the knowledge and skill to use his best techniques, which are better than Hebi-Sasuke's. That's the whole reason Kishi included the convo between Karin and Sasuke, to directly tell readers that Sasuke was weaker than Orochimaru, and it's why Kishi had Orochimaru come out and use one of his Jutsu as the final triumph card against Itachi.



> and he confidently went after Itachi after stating that it was impossible for Orochimaru or himself (separately) to kill Itachi. Implication being:


He went after Itachi because he thought that he had the right knowledge and jutsu to counter Itachi's abilities, not because he believed he was stronger than Itachi. Ether that or he believed Orochimaru couldn't win, because Orochimaru was weakened.



> Hebi Sasuke > Itachi (assumed) > Orochimaru > Pre-fusion Sasuke


It's really Sick-Itachi > Armless-Orochimaru > Hebi-Sasuke.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> That's the whole reason Kishi included the convo between Karin and Sasuke, to directly tell readers that Sasuke was weaker than Orochimaru



Sasuke said that Orochimaru was weakened when he (pre-Hebi) beat him. That's a fact, but that's not saying Hebi Sasuke is weaker, or even that pre-Hebi Sasuke is necessarily weaker.​


Turrin said:


> and it's why Kishi had Orochimaru come out and use one of his Jutsu as the final triumph card against Itachi.



Orochimaru taking over Sasuke's body is a much stronger incarnation of Orochimaru that was hyped throughout the entire manga and was Orochimaru's ultimate objective from his intro. 

Yes, he was stronger than Hebi Sasuke when controlling Sasuke's body, but Hebi Sasuke is significantly stronger than p1 Orochimaru. Just look at how they each viewed (and fared against) Itachi.​


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> All Fushi Tensei does is give the user control over the victim's body. No where in the manga does it state to give the user the skill and knowledge to use the victim's techniques. The idea that Hebi-Sasuke is a fused character has and always will be fannon. He gained Orochimaru's powerful chakra, White-Snake Regeneration, thus enabling him the potential to use certain techniques Orochimaru could, that Sasuke possessed the necessary skill and knowledge to utilize, like Oral-Rebirth. Hid did not gain all of Orochimaru's abilities, which is why he could not use Orochimaru's most powerful techniques. In-fact Orochimaru himself at the time couldn't use most of his techniques, including his strongest technique, Edo-Tensei.
> 
> Orochimaru is stronger than Hebi-Sasuke, because he has the knowledge and skill to use his best techniques, which are better than Hebi-Sasuke's. That's the whole reason Kishi included the convo between Karin and Sasuke, to directly tell readers that Sasuke was weaker than Orochimaru, and it's why Kishi had Orochimaru come out and use one of his Jutsu as the final triumph card against Itachi.
> 
> ...



Orochimaru didn't have arms?


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

It doesn't matter whether it was a retcon or not, because Orochimaru stated to Kabuto in p1 that he didn't approach Itachi before attacking Konoha because Itachi was out of his league.

Hebi Sasuke knew this, and he respected Orochimaru enough to say that he (pre-Hebi) beat him because he was weakened, but believed himself to have bridged the gap that Orochimaru previously couldn't.

For the record though, we saw Orochimaru use a variety of jutsu like Rashoman Gates and Mandara no Jin with all those snakes spitting out swords. He clearly had _some_ jutsu and arm-usage.​


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## Csdabest (May 11, 2015)

Why cant Black Chidori Peirce Raikage? If Sasuke base chidori can pierce EI then CS2 Sasuke should be able to rip through w/ stronger chakra or more physical strength.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 11, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> Why cant Black Chidori Peirce Raikage? If Sasuke base chidori can pierce EI then CS2 Sasuke should be able to rip through w/ stronger chakra or more physical strength.



Black Chidori has no feats to suggest it can remotely approach the level of Rasenshuriken lol


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> Why cant Black Chidori Peirce Raikage? If Sasuke base chidori can pierce EI then CS2 Sasuke should be able to rip through w/ stronger chakra or more physical strength.



 Except Sasuke never pierced the Raikage.


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## Source (May 11, 2015)

> FRS isn't even one tenth of Kirin's destructive power. It takes a bite out of a hill, but Kirin annihilates the entire mountain.



It's the other way around. The Uchiha hill or whatever was tiny compared to the uncondensed explosion of the FRS.

can shatter the rock coral on Naruto's back

Compare it to the CT crater.


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## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Orochimaru didn't have arms?



I think he means that Oro couldn't use any jutsu that require hand-seals since his arms' soul was sealed.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 11, 2015)

Kirin is more concentrated than FRS. All of its power seems to lie in one point - much like Chidori - whereas FRS sends many wind-like needles into someone's body. They're different techniques and shouldn't be compared because of AoE alone, which doesn't amount to much of anything when the little needles can't pierce Raikage's skin. If Chidori damages Ei even slightly, I can't imagine how fucked up Sandaime Raikage would be after taking on Kirin. In terms of durability, I never thought the two of them were leagues apart. Frankly, the disparity in their durability is - more or less - akin to their disparity in speed, which isn't necessarily large.

I also have doubts that One-Finger Nukite is stronger than Kirin.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

I did not read the OP 
3rd Raikage slaughters none the less


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 11, 2015)

2015 people still trying to compare FRS to Kirin.


Going by hype and feats, Kirin is in a completely different ballpark. 


As for Hebi Sasuke's power level... 

There is no need to discard Kishi's statement about Sasuke being stronger than Orochimaru.
Also Deidara was established as a Orochimaru level shinobi, by stating multiple times that he was supposed to kill Orochimaru and was pissed @ Sasuke for killing him. Then they face off and it is a pretty close fight.

Hebi Sasuke >= Sannin >=< Deidara



Hussain said:


> I think he means that Oro couldn't use any jutsu that require hand-seals since his arms' soul was sealed.



What jutsu does Orochimaru have except for ET that requires him to use handseals ?


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## Turrin (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke said that Orochimaru was weakened when he (pre-Hebi) beat him. That's a fact, but that's not saying Hebi Sasuke is weaker, or even that pre-Hebi Sasuke is necessarily weaker.​


It doesn't matter if it's Pre-Hebi or Post-Hebi, that beat Orochimaru, because Karin is directly saying someone stronger than Orochimaru should have done better against Deidara.

Karin

_"Sloppy!"
"Is this even the man who defeated Orochimaru!?"
_

Sasuke

_"Orochimaru from the start was weakened"
"there's nothing more to that story"_

See Karin is question Sasuke's performance against Deidara, if he truly beat Orochimaru.



> Orochimaru taking over Sasuke's body is a much stronger incarnation of Orochimaru that was hyped throughout the entire manga and was Orochimaru's ultimate objective from his intro.


No Orochimaru [at full power, not armless] taking over Sasuke's body was hyped throughout the manga, because it would place Orochimaru's more experienced and skillful mind in Sasuke's youthful Uchiha body. Basically the best of both worlds. Hebi-Sasuke's see's the less experienced and skillful Sasuke in control of a weakened Orochimaru's body.



> Yes, he was stronger than Hebi Sasuke when controlling Sasuke's body, but Hebi Sasuke is significantly stronger than p1 Orochimaru. Just look at how they each viewed (and fared against) Itachi.


Itachi never fought P1 Orochimaru, so I can't look at how each faired. Your referring to a flashback many years prior to P1, in which we must assume Orochimaru was ether lacking a great deal of his abilities or was not defeated by his hand being cut off, as Orochimaru as we saw him in cannon laughs off such an injury



Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no need to discard Kishi's statement about Sasuke being stronger than Orochimaru.


What Kishi statement?



> Also Deidara was established as a Orochimaru level shinobi, by stating multiple times that he was supposed to kill Orochimaru and was pissed @ Sasuke for killing him. Then they face off and it is a pretty close fight.


Akatsuki Leader assigned Deidara to kill a heavily weakened Orochimaru, and Akatsuki moves in pairs. So yeah Deidara + Fucking Around Obito could probably defeated an Orochimaru on his death bed.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

its odd people assume hebi sasuke was smarter than MS sasuke 
the only reason he showed intelligence against itachi was because he had knowledge
notice against deidara he rushed in as he does all the time
he tries that against sandaime and dies instantly


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## Veracity (May 11, 2015)

Bonly said:


> When you show me proof that Kirin does nothing then I'll think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sasuke has the curse seal which is a pseudo SM, using the fact that a normal Chidori barely got through A's armor holds little weight to suggest a Senjutsu enhanced black Chidori doesn't have a chance to get to the Sandaime.



Ummm no? Can't believe nobody brought up the fact that Narutos base resengan equals Sasukes base chidori. So logically Narutos Senjustu enhanced resengan should at the very least equal Sasukes CC2 chidori( stronger actually because Perfect Sage is > to CC2). And Narutos Senjustu enhanced resengan swung by a ninja that can body slam 50% Kurama and toss rhinos above clouds, only put a minor scratch on the Raikage: hitting Ginkaku

And most scratches like that are there for artwork, so it's even more believable that his resengan did 0% damage to the Raikage.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It doesn't matter if it's Pre-Hebi or Post-Hebi, that beat Orochimaru, because Karin is directly saying someone stronger than Orochimaru should have done better against Deidara.
> 
> Karin
> 
> ...



Sasuke was not going all-out against Deidara.

And Deidara said he could kill Orochimaru (and could.)


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke was not going all-out against Deidara.
> 
> And Deidara said he could kill Orochimaru (and could.)



whe did deidara claim he could kill Oro

I know he wanted to but he never claimed he could kill oro


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## Bonly (May 11, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Ummm no? Can't believe nobody brought up the fact that Narutos base resengan equals Sasukes base chidori. So logically Narutos Senjustu enhanced resengan should at the very least equal Sasukes CC2 chidori( stronger actually because Perfect Sage is > to CC2). And Narutos Senjustu enhanced resengan swung by a ninja that can body slam 50% Kurama and toss rhinos above clouds, only put a minor scratch on the Raikage: x
> 
> And most scratches like that are there for artwork, so it's even more believable that his resengan did 0% damage to the Raikage.



That's neat and all but as you know Rasengan and Chidori do different kinds of damage so while Rasengan managed to do a bit of damage and put cracks on the Sandaime, that doesn't mean Chidori which pierces things, will do the same kind of damage.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Bonly said:


> That's neat and all but as you know Rasengan and Chidori do different kinds of damage so while Rasengan managed to do a bit of damage and put cracks on the Sandaime, that doesn't mean Chidori which pierces things, will do the same kind of damage.



but we have seen what chidori does to someone less durable than the sandaime
so sasuke attempts chidori and dies trying 

The only chance would have been genjutsu but danzo calls them short and weak. so that doesn't buy sasuke enough time to set up kirin


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> What Kishi statement?



Sasuke's statement about Itachi being stronger than Oro + Sasuke. Then going after Itachi post Orochimaru merge, meaning he believed he was stronger than Orochimaru. 



> Akatsuki Leader assigned Deidara to kill a heavily weakened Orochimaru, and Akatsuki moves in pairs. So yeah Deidara + Fucking Around Obito could probably defeated an Orochimaru on his death bed.



They probably had no idea what condition Orochimaru was in.


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Sasuke doesn't stand a chance if he required Mangekyo Sharingan to ball with A (4th Raikage). He will need Kagutsuchi and Susano'o to deal with the 3rd, just like against the other top Kumo ninjas such as B and the 4th.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Bonly said:


> FRS laid the Sandaime on his ass, knocked off his Raiton armor, had him smoking and left him with multiple cracks on his body. That's not "doing nothing" and he was an Edo Tensei so he gets the perks of Edo Regen and what not


. 

feel free to show panels of raikage regenerating. I didn't see any maybe u saw some panels of that in the manga you read. KCM Naruto the user of the jutsu said, it had no effect not one scratch. 


> How did you go from taking about the boost in Senjutsu not making up the gap to talking about Kirin? Anyway look at the DB page below:



cuz kirin is the only jutsu which would work. anything else would bounce off



> SPOILER][/SPOILER]



ok so sasuke mid match will aim katon at the sky and thunderclouds will appear before sandaime can close in 



> If Sasuke wanted it's not gonna take him long to set up Kirin. The Sandaime has damn near no knowledge on Sasuke so he's not gonna jump into the flames all willy nilly when he see Sasuke shooting them up in the air. With genjutsu, snakes, and all those tree around him, Sasuke has the tools needed to stay away from the Sandaime to use Kirin.



nor does sasuke have knowledge on sandaime. so why on earth would he start with kirin?



> "It's A weak genjutsu that doesn't last long"
> 
> No he's not generalizing.




prove he isn't. because both genjutsu shown were weak and short 



> If it wasn't hard for people to break out of Sasuke's genjutsu why did C not do it and hype his genjutsu at the same time?



C is fodder. seriously are u trying to hype C. for real? what kage level opponent cant 1 panel C. does that suddenly make them gods. because itachi with a kunai murder C. doesn't suddenly mean itachi with a kunai can kill any and all ninja. 



> Can you show me all(or a good handful of) the ninja's who stood still and easily broke a genjutsu by just stopping their chakra flow?



sakura, shikamaru, kakashi, gai. all did so to break kabuto genjutsu. 

now if u talking sharingan genjutsu. oro tried itachi cut his hand. no one else actually got caught and had the skill or time to break it. that doesn't mean anyone caught in genjutsu even with knowledge they are in genjutsu will still be trolled by genjutsu. 

sasuke genjutsu for the most part are obvious. really giant spikes out of no where which only immobilize you. why on earth wont a kai work when kishi the author says it will

the only danger with sharingan genjutsu is since it requires no seals It can land and the victim wont know. that's it. 



> Did I say he would knock out the Sandaime?



no u didn't. u haven't attempted to make me laugh. so you wouldn't. 


> I'm assuming that if Sasuke caught the Sandaime in a genjutsu it'll give him a bit of time for a breather. If he wants to use that time to gain some distance or set up Kirin or jerk off or play with his ass or whatever the fuck Sasuke wanted to do, he'd be able to do it.



it would. but the assumption that he is going to do that then set up kirin. before rushing in which he has always done is laughable. he got no knowledge on sandaime why go straight for kirin?




> Danzo used a paralyzing seal on Sasuke to help him get out of the genjutsu.



 no proof the seal helped him get out of it. the genjutus ended. that's all that happened

either that or dnazo broke out. the seal had nothing to do with the genjutsu. all it did was stop sasuke from impaling danzo 




> Doesn't work like that.



according to the author it does. or jiriaya wont have mentioned it to naruto



> You made the claim that deactivating his Raiton armor would break him out of a genjutsu so I'm asking to prove that stopping the shroud will stop his chakra flow altogether.



chakra flow it required to maintain a chakra mode. deactivating it stops chakra flow. common sense. ration chakra through out his body flowing constantly. is chara flow. kishi has already mentioned stopping chakra flow breaks genjutsu. so shroud deactivation works just fine 



> You said "stops him from stopping his chakra flow. *something as easy as shroud deactivation would suffice *" thus I'm asking you to prove that deactivating it would stop his chakra flow altogether.



well its never happened so no I don't have panels. but ration chakra mode requires chakra flow to maintain. if its deactivated then chakra isn't flowing through out his body anymore enhacing it. so that's stopping chakra flow right there



> Did I mention that such a method would never work on genjutsu?



no u did not. sorry

in short this is being neeky about things. genjutsu isn't going to be buying enough time for sasuke to land his only shot at harming the raikage

not when he wouldhave died trying chidori only for sandaime to  the attack and kill sasuke


----------



## Turrin (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke was not going all-out against Deidara.


And if that was a valid excuse than Sasuke would have told Karin that, rather than saying Orochimaru was weakened. 

The text is very clear. Someone who was stronger than Orochimaru shouldn't have performed the way Sasuke did against Deidara. Therefore Hebi-Sasuke is not stronger than Orochimaru.



> And Deidara said he could kill Orochimaru (and could.)


Orochimaru was weakened. Deidara also said he could kill Sasuke.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And if that was a valid excuse than Sasuke would have told Karin that, rather than saying Orochimaru was weakened.



Neither was an "excuse." He was clarifying that Orochimaru was weakened when he beat him to Karen, because he was. That doesn't mean he was weaker than Orochimaru.

Your argument is BS if you think Hebi Sasuke thought he was weaker than Orochimaru, but stronger than Itachi, as he clearly thought he could kill Itachi who was well-known to be > Orochimaru.

It's true that Sasuke underestimated the extent of Itachi's skill, but he knew Orochimaru much better after three years.​


----------



## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Sasuke did think he was ready to defeat itachi yet was trolled by itachi holding back 
so no hebi sasuke in the end was not stronger than orochimaru 
hebi sasuke simply overestimated his abilities while underestimating itachi's 

hebi sasuke knew nothing of susanoo. Something orochimaru probably did know as he wasn't surprised by itachi using it. the items is what surprised orochimaru 

its possible during their time together itachi found out that orochimaru was looking for the totsuka blade and took it first to prevent orochimaru getting more dangerous 

all points to itachi>orochimaru>hebi sasuke>deidara. 

this doesn't mean diedara cant kill orochimaru 

but strat as far as this match is concerned hebi sasuke 9/10 runs into the 3rd only to be butchered like lamb


----------



## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

Bonly is getting frustrated.  


but seriously, how is this still going on. It's obvious that the 3rd will take a dumb on Sasuke. lol


----------



## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

@hussain really is he?
already?
is it because of me
cuz otherwise 

I get people ignoring me and others calling me mean and whining even when am asking simple questions 

FFS

more seriously though how this doesn't end with sasuke fingered off the bat is beyond me. when has sasuke not rushed in when fighting?

once against itachi who he had basically full knowledge on and 3 years of prep.


----------



## Bonly (May 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> .feel free to show panels of raikage regenerating. I didn't see any maybe u saw some panels of that in the manga you read.



All Edo Tensei regen when they get damaged. Let me guess you don't think the Kages fought those Madara clones off panel because you didn't see it amiright? 



> KCM Naruto the user of the jutsu said, it had no effect not one scratch.



And yet the manga clearly shows that the Sandaime with multiple new cracks on his body meaning it did something.



> cuz kirin is the only jutsu which would work. anything else would bounce off



Concession accepted. 



> nor does sasuke have knowledge on sandaime. so why on earth would he start with kirin?
> 
> he got no knowledge on sandaime why go straight for kirin?



When did I say Sasuke starts with Kirin?



> prove he isn't. because both genjutsu shown were weak and short



Burden of proof is on you. You claimed Obito was generalizing when Obito said ""It's *A* weak genjutsu that doesn't last long" so you have to prove he was generalizing, otherwise I'll accept your concession.



> C is fodder. seriously are u trying to hype C. for real? what kage level opponent cant 1 panel C. does that suddenly make them gods. because itachi with a kunai murder C. doesn't suddenly mean itachi with a kunai can kill any and all ninja.



Doesn't matter if he's fodder(which obviously he's not as he was one of the ninja A chose to take to the Kage summit) or not, if all of Sasuke's genjutsu wasn't hard to break out of then he should've broken it per your logic.




> but the assumption that he is going to do that then set up kirin.before rushing in which he has always done is laughable.



When you prove otherwise then you'd have a point. Sasuke can use that time for whatever he wants, if he finds out about the Sandaime's strength and durability throughout the fight then he could very well use it to to set up Kirin. 



> no proof the seal helped him get out of it. the genjutus ended. that's all that happened either that or dnazo broke out. the seal had nothing to do with the genjutsu. all it did was stop sasuke from impaling danzo .



Do you know how a person uses genjutsu?



> chakra flow it required to maintain a chakra mode. deactivating it stops chakra flow. common sense. ration chakra through out his body flowing constantly. is chara flow. kishi has already mentioned stopping chakra flow breaks genjutsu. so shroud deactivation works just fine



Alright I see the problem here for you. You think that simply stopping the chakra flow would be enough. Right after Jiraiya said that he said that one needs to use more power to disrupt their chakra flow to cancel out the genjutsu. One has to be good enough to overpower the genjutsu

The rest I cut out as it was useless shit



Hussain said:


> Bonly is getting frustrated.
> 
> 
> but seriously, how is this still going on. It's obvious that the 3rd will take a dumb on Sasuke. lol



I ask myself the same question when you're in a Minato vs Hashirama thread 

_There's no need for that comment. ~ Cord_​


----------



## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sasuke did think he was ready to defeat itachi yet was trolled by itachi holding back



So what? Orochimaru was trolled by a completely blind, cut-up, crippled, almost out of chakra, minute-from-natural-death Itachi.

Sasuke was all about maximizing his chances against Itachi, and he believed himself more capable than Orochimaru. So he absorbed Orochimaru and kept control instead of giving him control.

And honestly, the Hydra technique and p1 Edo Tensei aren't better than Kirin and all Sasuke's raiton variants, even if you asssume Orochimaru could use dojutsu/CS as well as Sasuke (unlikely.)​


----------



## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

> I ask myself the same question when you're in a Minato vs Hashirama thread



Simple. 
S.F > Hashirama

Minato > fodder > Hashirama

speed > power. 

Armless Minato > Wood. 

Minato's cell sperm > Hashirama

and so on




You can't defeat whom you can't hit.


----------



## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Bonly said:


> All Edo Tensei regen when they get damaged. Let me guess you don't think the Kages fought those Madara clones off panel because you didn't see it amiright?



again Naruto the user of the jutsu said his jutsu FRS had no effect. do you need me to show you the scan again?




> And yet the manga clearly shows that the Sandaime with multiple new cracks on his body meaning it did something


.

see above. Naruto the user of the jutsu in kishi manga not urs said it had no effect. in fact the chapter is named the limit of FRS. 



> Concession accepted.



 what ever makes you happy



> When did I say Sasuke starts with Kirin?



ok you didn't so he dies then. 



> Burden of proof is on you. You claimed Obito was generalizing when Obito said ""It's *A* weak genjutsu that doesn't last long" so you have to prove he was generalizing, otherwise I'll accept your concession


.

feel free to show a genjutsu from sasuke that lasts longer than that. ill wait. 



> Doesn't matter if he's fodder(which obviously he's not as he was one of the ninja A chose to take to the Kage summit) or not, if all of Sasuke's genjutsu wasn't hard to break out of then he should've broken it per your logic.




lol so you trying to hype C?  

sasuke genjutsu isn't hard to break out of for someone of his level. not for some weak ninja that sasuke could kill half blind and with a kunai. 



> When you prove otherwise then you'd have a point. Sasuke can use that time for whatever he wants, if he finds out about the Sandaime's strength and durability throughout the fight then he could very well use it to to set up Kirin.



to find out sandaime strength and durability he must test it correct. how does he survive after failing to do anything with chidori? does sandaime let him run off. cuz yondaime slammed him to the ground after his chidori did nothing




> Do you know how a person uses genjutsu?



yes do u?



> Alright I see the problem here for you. You think that simply stopping the chakra flow would be enough. Right after Jiraiya said that he said that one needs to use more power to disrupt their chakra flow to cancel out the genjutsu. One has to be good enough to overpower the genjutsu



fair enough yyou then have no proof sandaime isn't good enough to break out of genjutsu that danzo called weak compared to tskuyomi 

or one that obito called weak. those are the only 2 sasuke has used. 



> I ask myself the same question when you're in a Minato vs Hashirama thread



as hussain would say 


@start 
ration variants and kirin
pale when compared to edo tensei and yamata no jutsu 

so no jutsu wise orochimaru is well above hebi sasuke. its odd to think otherwise.

_There's no need for those comments. ~ Cord_​


----------



## Turrin (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Neither was an "excuse." He was clarifying that Orochimaru was weakened when he beat him to Karen, because he was. That doesn't mean he was weaker than Orochimaru.​


Again the text is explicitly says Hebi-Sasuke performed bellow the standard that someone stronger than Orochimaru should.



> Your argument is BS if you think Hebi Sasuke thought he was weaker than Orochimaru, but stronger than Itachi, as he clearly thought he could kill Itachi who was well-known to be > Orochimaru.
> 
> It's true that Sasuke underestimated the extent of Itachi's skill, but he knew Orochimaru much better after three years.


First off Sasuke didn't expect to find Itachi that quickly. He expected to have to hunt him down, but instead Itachi appeared in-front of him and challenged him to a duel. That's not something Sasuke IC could turn down regardless of what Odds he thought he had going into the fight.  Sasuke challenging someone whose stronger than him is IC, he basically openly admits Naruto is stronger than him Post-Chunin-Exams, but than challenges him on the roof-top regardless. Thirdly strength is not the only thing that decides fights; Sasuke at the time did not care whether he was stronger than Itachi or not, he simply wanted to kill him, so if he thought he was weaker, but simply had the necessary Jutsu to have even a remote chance at killing Itachi he would have seized the oppertunity. 

For these reasons Sasuke accepting Itachi's challenge, is in no way enough to assert Sasuke was necessarily stronger than Orochimaru. To decide that we need to look at other aspects of the manga, and what the manga shows us is Orochimaru outperforming Hebi-Sasuke feat wise, stat wise, and directly stating Sasuke did not perform up to the standards of someone stronger than Orochimaru.


----------



## Bonly (May 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> again Naruto the user of the jutsu said his jutsu FRS had no effect. do you need me to show you the scan again?
> 
> see above. Naruto the user of the jutsu in kishi manga not urs said it had no effect. in fact the chapter is named the limit of FRS.



Good for Naruto, no matter how much you cry and whine and don't want it to be true, it doesn't change the fact that the Sandaime was laid on his ass with a bunch of new Edo cracks on his body after he got hit by the FRS even if Naruto says it didn't.



> feel free to show a genjutsu from sasuke that lasts longer than that. ill wait.
> lol so you trying to hype C?
> 
> sasuke genjutsu isn't hard to break out of for someone of his level. not for some weak ninja that sasuke could kill half blind and with a kunai.




Concession accepted.



> to find out sandaime strength and durability he must test it correct. how does he survive after failing to do anything with chidori? does sandaime let him run off. cuz yondaime slammed him to the ground after his chidori did nothing



If Sasuke gets put in a bad situation then he always has oral rebirth to get out of dodge.



> yes do u?



Good now tell me how does one use genjutsu. 



> fair enough yyou then have no proof sandaime isn't good enough to break out of genjutsu that danzo called weak compared to tskuyomi
> 
> or one that obito called weak.



And you have no proof that the Sandaime is good enough to do such so were back to square one.



> those are the only 2 sasuke has used.



MS Genjutsu, I linked that since I'm sure you didn't know/remember that one. You already know about the genjutsu he used on B and C along with the two he did against Danzo. That's five times he's used genjutsu and that's not including the genjutsu he used during his Hebi days so why you think he only used it twice is behind me but meh.



Hussain said:


> Simple.
> S.F > Hashirama
> 
> Minato > fodder > Hashirama
> ...



Simple

Hashi>Minato

You can't defeat whom you can't kill

_There's no need for those comments. ~ Cord_​


----------



## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

He can kill him actually. If anything he can seal him or teleport him into a volcano. 
Minato's solos, sorry Bonly. 

[YOUTUBE]p35F1E8Sri0[/YOUTUBE]
1:30
That's how he dodges fodder woods. 

--- I feel the Goose will come out of no where any time now--- 

so to make it a pit relevant. lol
 A solos with his black lightning. 

Why do you think Sasuke can use Kiri, when he has never done so except in his battle with itachi
and with the help of massive Amatersu's heat? 

how do you know about the weather condition?


----------



## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

> QUOTE=Bonly;53571869]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob, Turrin is correct. Sasuke never held back against Deidara. Him using already CS2 and getting his wing blown off implies that.

 However, Sasuke was superior in that fight as Deidara also needed assistance from Tobi. As Hebi Sasuke implied that he would've performed better had he been stronger than Orochimaru, then Orochimaru could likely be stronger. I see Deidara mocking Sasuke's feat of defeating Orochimaru as a sign that both Sasuke and him aren't too far apart from Orochimaru or that Deidara could very well be as strong, if not stronger than Orochimaru excluding Orochimaru's Hydra technique.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 11, 2015)

Sasuke didn't hold back, but he wasn't set out to kill Deidara either, he wanted him alive. He also didn't use his strongest technique in that fight, whereas Deidara did use his.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke didn't hold back, but he wasn't set out to kill Deidara either, he wanted him alive. He also didn't use his strongest technique in that fight, whereas Deidara did use his.



 Well, his strongest technique requires prep which leaves him vulnerable while Deidara does require prep, but is at such a far range from Sasuke where it didn't matter.


----------



## Bonly (May 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> cuz am trying to be more like you.



I'm proud of you for trying to make yourself better but aim for someone higher then me, aim for someone like Based Kai 



> ok so he uses it once. runs out of juice then what flees to prep his only shot at victory.



If he finds that best then sure or he can do whatever he wants to do.



> you the expert you tell me. I know you got ADD as well so this might get tough for both of us



Ahh so you don't know how one uses genjutsu, thanks.




> meh. and all those genjutsu were short genjutsu. which goes to my point about the generalization. sasuke gejutsu are short and weak. he sounds like the person am talking to



Concession accepted. 




> .... yours make me hard



Yours make me jizz my pants 



> not according to the message I just got asking me to stop bullying you. as I suspected you went around and bitched. ah common!! not stones



Seeing as how I got the same message seems like you like to run to mods as well 



Hussain said:


> He can kill him actually.



Hashi can live with his own Byakugo 



Hussain said:


> If anything he can seal him or teleport him into a volcano.
> Minato's solos, sorry Bonly.



Hashi clone feints him, Hashi solos, sorry Based Hussain 



> --- I feel the Goose will come out of no where any time now---



Don''t worry I used the bringer of darkness jutsu to blind him so he shouldn't be here anytime soon 



> so to make it a pit relevant. lol
> A solos with his black lightning.
> 
> Why do you think Sasuke can use Kiri, when he has never done so except in his battle with itachi



Why do you mention SF when Minato has only done such to seal Kurama? Why do people mention Itachi's finger genjutsu when he's only done it in his battle with Team seven once? Why do people mention FRS expanding when he's only done so against the paths one time? I could go on but you get the point, mentioning something that a character can do is nothing new even if they don't use it often.



> and with the help of massive Amatersu's heat?
> 
> how do you know about the weather condition?



I read the Databooks.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Fighting an enemy and purposefully not trying to kill them is holding back.

Hebi Sasuke was holding back.


----------



## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

true hebi sasuke was holding back he said so on panel 

but strat why do you think sasuke clearly holding back against deidara has any bearing in this match

@Bonly I see what you doing wont work.  imam leave you to it. you the best buddy.


----------



## Veracity (May 11, 2015)

Bonly said:


> That's neat and all but as you know Rasengan and Chidori do different kinds of damage so while Rasengan managed to do a bit of damage and put cracks on the Sandaime, that doesn't mean Chidori which pierces things, will do the same kind of damage.



Lmao. Narutos Senjustu resengan is atleast 10x the strength of Sasukes CC2 chidori hiEven the strength difference between the two. Even if you assume chidori cuts far deeper into the opponent, it still won't close the gap. Then theres the fact that resengan tends to dig pretty deep into an opponent like chidori.

And I actually doubt if the resengan did any damage seeing as the Raikage naturally just had cracks in his body, via the character art of an Edo:
Genjutsu
Genjutsu

Not to mention FRS should Atleast be as sharp as Black Chidori considering it cuts clean through the Juubi's tail and clean through solid rock like butter 
: Genjutsu
: Genjutsu

And an FRS slammed into the Raikage by someone stronger and faster than Sasuke, and not only hardly injured Raikage, but didn't actually pierce him at all: Genjutsu


----------



## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

oh God, what have I dragged myself into! 


> =Bonly;53572178]
> Hashi can live with his own Byakugo


Since when were you under the impression that Hashi will get the time to use it? 
Have you ever played Pokemon? You know quick attack?  
It always goes first. 

Also, Since the Rassengan opened a whole on JJ Obito's back, destroyed Hashirama's giant statue, 
made Obito (with Hachirama's cells) lose an arm, defeated the 3rd Raikage, bypassed Kabuto's healing abilities....etc. Things does not seem good to him.  


> Hashi clone feints him, Hashi solos, sorry Based Hussain


Fodders clones are fodder. 
What worst, Minato can destroy 1, and connect his chakra to Hashirama, via chakra link
and teleport him into a volcano. 


> Don''t worry I used the bringer of darkness jutsu to blind him so he shouldn't be here anytime soon






> Why do you mention SF when Minato has only done such to seal Kurama? Why do people mention Itachi's finger genjutsu when he's only done it in his battle with Team seven once? Why do people mention FRS expanding when he's only done so against the paths one time? I could go on but you get the point, mentioning something that a character can do is nothing new even if they don't use it often.


Bonly please. 
SF, and itachi's fodder finger do not have ridiculous conditions that must be met, so it's much easier
to pull it off. Sasuke however, who has much more screen time than them, was never able to meet those conditions ever again. 


I read the Databooks.


There is always some exaggerations in the Databook statements. We know from the manga that the Amatersu was needed. The Dragon fire jutsu alone cannot do that. 

Madara even used 5 of them at once, have you seen any clouds? 
Genjutsu

That applies to the Amatersu as well, even tho it was used so many times, but only a small amount of it won't cut it. there has to be a huge amount of it, in addition to those fire dragons for it to work.


----------



## Turrin (May 11, 2015)

Sasuke did hold back, but it doesn't matter, because that's clearly not the reason he gave for underperforming to the standard of someone > Orochimaru.


----------



## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

@hussain 
madara fire dragon jutsu wasn't aimed at the sky though 
so how would it cause thunder clouds?

even if we assume sasuke can set up kirin doesn't anyone think it odd that sandaime the faster of the 2 would see his enemy clearly setting up a jutsu and wont try to rush things?

or does anyone think sasuke can shot 4 katon into the sky before sandaime can close in on him


----------



## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

Tsunade reflect them.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke did hold back, but it doesn't matter, because that's clearly not the reason he gave for underperforming to the standard of someone > Orochimaru.



He thought he was stronger and there was no point in giving him his body.



He said there was nothing left to learn from Orochimaru.



Pre-Hebi Sasuke beat sick Orochimaru with neg-diff.

Hebi Sasuke said Orochimaru was weak when he beat him. A fact.

Yet he still chased the man he knew could _stomp_ Orochimaru.

Hence him not believing himself to be Orochimaru's inferior.


----------



## Turrin (May 11, 2015)

@Strategoob

I've explained to you multiple times now why Sasuke would be willing to face Itachi, despite being weaker than Orochimaru. I'm sorry, but I can't explain it any clearer for you.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Hardly worth it, but sure:​


Turrin said:


> Sasuke challenging someone whose stronger than him is IC, he basically openly admits Naruto is stronger than him Post-Chunin-Exams, but than challenges him on the roof-top regardless.



Sasuke repeatedly told Itachi that he was going to die in a 1v1 fight against him, and that Itachi's most powerful jutsu would not defeat him. That's the definition of not considering himself weaker.​


Turrin said:


> For these reasons Sasuke accepting Itachi's challenge, is in no way enough to assert Sasuke was necessarily stronger than Orochimaru.



So you believe Sasuke thought that he would kill Itachi one on one, but couldn't defeat Orochimaru in a fair fight? What about when Sasuke straight said Orochimaru was weaker than him?

Remember, Sasuke told Naruto that he'd gladly give his life and after life to increase his chances against Itachi. He didn't give Orochimaru his body because he considered Orochimaru his inferior.

And honestly, if you take a step back, you'll realize that Kirin and raiton variants are better than the Hydra jutsu and the fodder Edo Tensei variant that Orochimaru had over him.​


Turrin said:


> and directly stating Sasuke did not perform up to the standards of someone stronger than Orochimaru.



Sasuke wasn't paneled by an 11-year-old base Itachi, so he far exceeded the standard Orochimaru had set. I'd be willing to bet he'd surpass Orochimaru's standard against old Hiruzen as well.​


----------



## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

He said there was nothing left to learn from Orochimaru.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Underestimating his knowledge, yeah.


----------



## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

his knowledge?


----------



## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> his knowledge?



Sasuke needed "the one who knows everything."

i.e. how to get the Hokage out of the Shinigami to ask questions.


----------



## Sorin (May 12, 2015)

What? 

Sandaime wins without too much trouble. Nothing in Sasuke's arsenal can even damage him. How is he supposed to be able to win? Kirin is laughed at and even then until Sasuke preps that shit, Sandaime would have already chopped Sasuke in half. 

Man Sasuke is so ridiculously overpowered by sandaime here. First being pitted against KCM Naruto, now this. Hebi Sasuke received some additional powers that i'm unaware of or what?


----------



## Trojan (May 12, 2015)

Strat plz. 

 Suigetsu was not worrying about Oro's "knowledge" he was afraid of him because of his power. It makes no sense to be afraid of him because of his knowledge in this case, nor does it matter to talk about how he lost his Jutsu because of the SF as his knowledge of them is still in his head. Sasuke was talking about underestimating Oro in that context.


----------



## TheGreen1 (May 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sasuke literally has nothing besides Kirin that can defeat Sandaime Raikage.
> 
> He literally outclasses Hebi Sasuke in every possible way. Manda would be a factor if it wasn't for the fact that Nukite just kills off Manda.
> 
> Sandaime Raikage low diffs, especially when I hold the belief that he's relatively close to V2 Ei's speed.



You're overestimating Sasuke to be honest. Kirin won't do shit against this guy who took a Rasenshuriken and kept going. Mind you, he's WEAK to wind and Rasenshuriken has to be THE strongest Fuuton attack. Kirin is lightning manipulation, and the Raikage uses Lighting armor. He might as well just lightly mist him with a water bottle for all the effect it's going to have on him.  Not to mention at this stage, I don't see how Sasuke is anywhere near fast enough to handle V1 Raikagenaut's speed. Sasuke's gonna get blitzed.

I don't see how this is anything but a spite thread. 3rd Raikage negative difficulty.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> You're overestimating Sasuke to be honest. Kirin won't do shit against this guy who took a Rasenshuriken and kept going. Mind you, he's WEAK to wind and Rasenshuriken has to be THE strongest Fuuton attack. Kirin is lightning manipulation, and the Raikage uses Lighting armor. He might as well just lightly mist him with a water bottle for all the effect it's going to have on him.  Not to mention at this stage, I don't see how Sasuke is anywhere near fast enough to handle V1 Raikagenaut's speed. Sasuke's gonna get blitzed.
> 
> I don't see how this is anything but a spite thread. 3rd Raikage negative difficulty.



So you'r basically saying that Raikage's Nukite is stronger than Kirin



Also Sasuke without CS was outmanuvering V1 A, so Sandaime's speed isn't that big of a deal here.


----------



## Icegaze (May 13, 2015)

outmanuvering 
he avoided him once. then got laiga bombed


kirin got no feats to suggest it breaches the sandaime defense not when a spur of the moment susanoo tanked it. 

and that was a kirin sped up by amaterasu flames. 

the sauce wank here is real, sasuke does what he always does rushes in with his cocky self and gets a grown black man to finger him.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Kirin is more concentrated than FRS. All of its power seems to lie in one point - much like Chidori - whereas FRS sends many wind-like needles into someone's body.



This post makes the *exact opposite *of sense. How in the world is a blast detonated from a Bijū-sized avatar of lightning possibly note concentrated than an explosion that condenses its greater energy levels (than Kirin) into smaller at hand cells needles?

Have you seen the crater for most Rasenshuriken? It's smaller than the Kirin avatar alone, much less the AOE for busting the small mountain Itachi and Sasuke were standing on. 



> If Chidori damages Ei even slightly, I can't imagine how fucked up Sandaime Raikage would be after taking on Kirin.



3rd >>>> Fourth in durability

Just as Rasenshuriken >> Kirin in sheer energy output.



> In terms of durability, I never thought the two of them were leagues apart.



It's a good thing we don't consider your thoughts then. The manga establishes a hell of a difference between them in durability.



> I also have doubts that One-Finger Nukite is stronger than Kirin.



Except it is.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Just as Rasenshuriken >> Kirin in sheer energy output.


I think trying to compare FRS to Kirin is like trying to compare rasengan to a Bijuudama.
Well, in the case of the latter, it makes more sense.
But based on hype and feats, Kirin is in a completely different ballpark. 



> It's a good thing we don't consider your thoughts then. The manga establishes a hell of a difference between them in durability.


It actually didn't. A's secretary said she didn't know if A could go through lightspeed travel just beause his Dad could, because of Sandaime's insane durability, but then A did and came out completely unharmed.



> QUOTE]
> Except it is.


Based on ?


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## Icegaze (May 13, 2015)

lol @ATastymuffin please remind all posters how a chapter was dedicated to sandaime coming out unharmed from FRS which is leagues above anything A has tanked or faced. 

susanoo tanked kirin, the same susanoo got a massive hole punched in it from danzo wind jutsu which is<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<FRS

sandaime coming out unharmed from FRS already puts him at the higher levels of susanoo bar PS in durability 

so simple question why would a stronger version of kirin which failed to harm itachi susanoo camping harm the sandaime?


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think trying to compare FRS to Kirin is like trying to compare rasengan to a Bijuudama.
> Well, in the case of the latter, it makes more sense.
> But based on hype and feats, Kirin is in a completely different ballpark.



Rasenshuriken has fucked up Kurama, who's vastly superior to a Tailed Beast that could survive a Tailed Beast Bomb and come out only "gassed".

For that matter, what hype does Kirin have? Feats-wisez Rasenshuriken already easily trumps it with its crater detonation.



> It actually didn't. A's secretary said she didn't know if A could go through lightspeed travel just beause his Dad could, because of Sandaime's insane durability, but then A did and came out completely unharmed.



I'm talking about how Ā the Fourth gets pierced by a generic Chidori yet his father remains entirely unfazed by a technique infinitely stronger.

If you can't see the blatant difference you're being deliberately obtuse. 



> Based on ?



Calcs based off of Rasenshuriken's crater detonation that pegs it as quite a bit more powerful in sheer destructive output than Kirin, maybe.


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## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you'r basically saying that Raikage's Nukite is stronger than Kirin
> 
> 
> 
> Also Sasuke without CS was outmanuvering V1 A, so Sandaime's speed isn't that big of a deal here.



 KCM Naruto required a whole Shinob Division to help him get to a safe distance away and suddenly someone slower than Sasuke can out-maneuver him?

 Not a chance. He certainly can dodge if Sandaime is only as fast as V1 Ei, but that really won't do shit if Sasuke can't initiate a proper counterattack.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol @ATastymuffin please remind all posters how a chapter was dedicated to sandaime coming out unharmed from FRS which is leagues above anything A has tanked or faced.
> 
> susanoo tanked kirin, the same susanoo got a massive hole punched in it from danzo wind jutsu which is<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<FRS
> 
> ...



Pretty much.

Even if someone had reservations about the way FRS' destructive output was calculated or objected to the feat as being an outlier and such, the fact that the technique near incapacitated Kurama, who is much more powerful than the Eight-Tails, who survived a Tailed Beast Bomb in a weakened state, places it above Kirin.

TBB >>> Kirin, the former is literally *hundreds* of times more powerful; this ratio isn't really up for debate either given the method of calculation for TBB and Kirin are one and the same: based off of the size of the area they destroyed and by which method of destruction (pulverization vs. violent fragmentation].


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Even if someone had reservations about the way FRS' destructive output was calculated or objected to the feat as being an outlier and such, the fact that the technique near incapacitated Kurama, who is much more powerful than the Eight-Tails, who survived a Tailed Beast Bomb in a weakened state, places it above Kirin.
> 
> TBB >>> Kirin, the former is literally *hundreds* of times more powerful; this ratio isn't really up for debate either given the method of calculation for TBB and Kirin are one and the same: based off of the size of the area they destroyed and by which method of destruction (pulverization vs. violent fragmentation].


FRS did not do as much damage to Kurama as TBB did to Hachibi. Not even close in fact. Hachibi was turned into a bloody mess and was literally taken out of commission for a good chunk of time:
at least six days
at least six days

Compare that to a few scuff marks on Kurama's fur:
at least six days

In-fact later on Kurama tanked Chou Oddama Rasengan Barrage + FRS, than had a large amount of Chakra ripped out of him emaciating him, and still got right back up using a massive TBB.

TBB is way more powerful than FRS, in-fact it's that very reason, that after Sandaime tanks FRS Naruto attempts to use TBB against him. 

As far as Kirin vs FRS goes, there isn't much means to compare them because they are inherently different Jutsu. Kirin is raw destructive force, while FRS is more concentrated destructive force. Meaning Kirin creates a greater area of destruction, but that doesn't necessarily make it stronger. I'm off the opinion that they are at least fairly close though. Kirin busted at best S4 Susano'o, but didn't have enough to go beyond that to kill Itachi. Danzo's Fuuton, which is certainly weaker than FRS punch a hole in S3 Susano'o, so it would make sense that FRS would be able to at least bust S4 Susano'o, given it's great raw-power advantage over Danzo's Fuuton. And even if it didn't quite bust S4 Susano'o, but greatly weakened it, it would still be around Kirin in strength. 

So yeah even if Kirin is a bit stronger in raw destructive output, FRS is close enough, where I kind of doubt the difference between the two is enough for Kirin to one-shot Sandaime. It may do more significant damage than FRS or the difference may just be enough to offset the elemental advantage FRS had on RCM. Ether way I find the odds are in Sandaime's favor for surviving it with at worst some serious, but not at all life threatening or severely handicapping injuries that would allow Sasuke to win.

But TBB is certainly way stronger than ether of them

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Icegaze (May 13, 2015)

sandaime tanks everything thrown at him and trolls
they are at least a tier apart in ability


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sandaime tanks everything thrown at him and trolls
> they are* at least a tier* apart in ability



that's being generous. 

This Hebi Sasuke stuff is beyond ridiculous.


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## Icegaze (May 13, 2015)

I agree it is 
but not to annoy anyone and get some complaints 
so ill say at least a tier apart. though I don't see how this can be a match when only 1 jutsu sasuke has can actually do anything while everything else bounces off like plastic bullets hitting a diamond wall


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> that's being generous.
> 
> This Hebi Sasuke stuff is beyond ridiculous.



Some placements of Hebi-Sasuke are ridiculous like him being stronger than Orochimaru or close to Itachi, but he shouldn't be totally disregarded. He defeated 2 Low-Kages [Deidara and Weakened Orochimaru] and has very versatile range of abilities as well as one very potent technique [Kirin]. He is probably around the top of Low-Kage to the lower end of Mid-Kage, while Sandaime is around the upper end. They aren't leagues apart, there is just a clear gap in their capabilities.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Rasenshuriken has fucked up Kurama, who's vastly superior to a Tailed Beast that could survive a Tailed Beast Bomb and come out only "gassed".


 It actually did nothing to Kurama, no permanent damage. Just phased him a little. 



> For that matter, what hype does Kirin have? Feats-wisez Rasenshuriken already easily trumps it with its crater detonation.


What crater detonation ?



> I'm talking about how Ā the Fourth gets pierced by a generic Chidori yet his father remains entirely unfazed by a technique infinitely stronger.


TBH pound per  pound Chidori is most likely stronger, given t he whole technique is concentrated on the finger tips of the user. FRS is spread over a much greater area.



> If you can't see the blatant difference you're being deliberately obtuse.


Different types of attack.
I think there is a reason why FRS did absolutely nothing but a Chidori type attack(nukite is likely a more concentrated chidori) fucked his shit up.



> Calcs based off of Rasenshuriken's crater detonation that pegs it as quite a bit more powerful in sheer destructive output than Kirin, maybe.



Oh man, you'r not talking about the FRS on CT crater OBD calcs are you ? 
Because they don't wroth shit


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

Grim please tell me your not arguing Chidori has more penertrive power than FRS


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Some placements of Hebi-Sasuke are ridiculous like him being stronger than Orochimaru or close to Itachi, but he shouldn't be totally disregarded. He defeated 2 Low-Kages [Deidara and Weakened Orochimaru] and has very versatile range of abilities as well as one very potent technique [Kirin]. He is probably around the top of Low-Kage to the lower end of Mid-Kage, while Sandaime is around the upper end. They aren't leagues apart, there is just a clear gap in their capabilities.



To be honest at first I believed that Hebi Sasuke is overwanked against Jiraiya because people here are itachi-fanboys and they are against him because of his superiority statement. However, it turned out to be he's being overwanked in general. 

- Deidara is jonin at best in my book, and Oro in his death bed is a low Jonin. 

- No. Sasuke obviously needed his MS to compete with the Kages, and he was going to die several times. Hebi Sasuke is Jonin level just like how Wind Arc Narudo was. Nothing more, nothing less. 

I consider the 3rd Raikage to be high Kage level.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Grim please tell me your not arguing Chidori has more penertrive power than FRS



I am not arguing anything. FRS is not a piercing technique, but rather a slash/explosive one.
And given the concentration of chidori, it should have more penetrating power than FRS, pound per pound.


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## Ashi (May 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not arguing anything. FRS is not a piercing technique, but rather a slash/explosive one.
> And given the concentration of chidori, it should have more penetrating power than FRS, pound per pound.



Yet FRS can go through things a normal Chidori can't


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Yet FRS can go through things a normal Chidori can't



Like what ?


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## StarWanderer (May 13, 2015)

Another missmatch. Third Raikage stomps.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not arguing anything. FRS is not a piercing technique, but rather a slash/explosive one.
> And given the concentration of chidori, it should have more penetrating power than FRS, pound per pound.


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## StarWanderer (May 13, 2015)

I think The Third can withstand anything Hebi Sasuke has in his arsenal, including Kirin.


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## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

May I remind you that Chidori couldn't even penetrate and kill Itachi?



 ^ 



 You've been gone for 2 months.


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## ueharakk (May 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> My argument is that the 3rd Raikage only ever displayed v1 speed, which Sasuke was shown  even without Orochimaru's chakra and the Curse Seal _boosting his speed further_.​



yep, but what happened after sasuke outmaneuvered Ei?  He got grabbed.  Sasuke is just going to get chased down unless he has something that he can put sandiame down with or create space other than just dodging a single strike at the last second.



Strategoob said:


> Moreover, we see  that Sasuke is IC willing to use Kirin _early_. He did not against Deidara or Itachi because he was seeking information from them initially.
> 
> In conclusion, there is nothing suggesting that the 3rd Raikage can avoid or tank the mountain-destroying Kirin (_far_ stronger than FRS.) And there's evidence for Sasuke evading the 3rd Raikage cleanly.


So much wrong:

1) The raw explosion of FRS encompassed almost half of nagato's chibaku tensei crater, and did far more damage to Kurama than 25 SM chou oodama rasengans, each of which can hollow out a mountain.  Nothing suggests Kirin is on some higher level of power than FRS.  
2) FRS had the elemental advantage over Sandaime raikage's shield and it still didn't put him down.  Kirin does worse.
3) FRS concentrates its power on a much smaller AoE than kirin which means FRS would do more damage to sandaime raikage.
4) Sasuke's Kirin he used on Itachi was powered by Sasuke's strongest CS2 flames and Itachi's amaterasu, and was stated to be something that sasuke could not do with just his normal chakra reserves.  
5) Consdering how powerful the 1 finger nukite is, there's more evidence for Sandaime raikage splitting it in half just like kakashi split a lightning bolt with raikiri than there is for that attack taking him out.



Strategoob said:


> Moreover, Hebi Sasuke was more cautious than Taka Sasuke due to the latter being  by the truth about Itachi, but even if he does make a mistake, then he can Oral Rebirth and resume.
> 
> *i.e.* He'd be less likely to rush into CQC against an eight-foot, 400-pound lightning-armored Raikage, and more likely to use the cautious strategy and tactics we saw him employ against Itachi.
> 
> Lastly, genjutsu would still work, and of course, releasing Orochimaru would definitely work, as white snake toxin is an easy solution to getting around the Raikage durability.


I highly doubt genjutsu would work when we've seen how difficult it is to catch super fast people in genjutsu.  

If Sasuke even has white snake poison, then I think it's the only possible way for him to really win.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

so is anyone suggesting chidori will damage the sandaime?
just curious 
hearing this pound for pound thing 

odd to compare a microscopic nuke attack to a simple piercing jab 

considering chidori can only kill kakuzu once while 50% FRS killed kakuzu twice


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## ueharakk (May 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so is anyone suggesting chidori will damage the sandaime?
> just curious
> hearing this pound for pound thing
> 
> ...



no one can legitimately claim that.  

Chidori is pount for pound equal to a rasengan which is why when both techniques clash, they cancel each other out despite having the same relative size and AoE.  If Chidori was pound for pound more powerful, it'd pierce through the rasengan and naruto's hand every time.

Claiming chidori is pound for pound more powerful than an attack that's tiers beyond a SM chou oodama rasengan is credibility genocide.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

ok so its nonsense then 
just trying to get that out of the way 

as for kirin I don't see why sandaime cant just cut through it. all he has to react to is sasuke swining his hand down 
seeing that he is faster than sasuke shouldn't be a problem 

kirin drops the instant sasuke hand goes down. so swinging a nikute above his head splits it 

the end of that debate


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## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

I dont even know what was the point to create this. The winner is obvious. The Third nukes him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> no one can legitimately claim that.
> 
> Chidori is pount for pound equal to a rasengan which is why when both techniques clash, they cancel each other out despite having the same relative size and AoE.  If Chidori was pound for pound more powerful, it'd pierce through the rasengan and naruto's hand every time.
> 
> Claiming chidori is pound for pound more powerful than an attack that's tiers beyond a SM chou oodama rasengan is credibility genocide.



Its like clashing the tip of a spear and a flail. Spear can't pierce flail, but i can pierce things that a flail can't damage.

Same goes when the spear is useless but the flail can get the job done.

You and I have been over this shit too many times.

There is a reason why FRS did jack shit to sandaime Raikage but his own Nukite, which is a technique nearly identical to chidori, annihilated him. Because against high durability/armor, piercing damage is the deal breaker.


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## ueharakk (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its like clashing the tip of a spear and a flail. Spear can't pierce flail, but i can pierce things that a flail can't damage.


Except it's nothing like clashing a tip of a spear and a flail since:

1) the spear and flail aren't energy attacks, the power of rasengan and chidori are stored in the physical manifestation of both attacks while the spear and flail's power come from the kinetic energy transfered through the points of contact of both items.  That's why both chidori and rasengan disappear after they exert the entire force of the attack on something while the spear and flail are still there after hey hit something.  Therfore, the total power in the chidori is used up when it's clashed with the total power of the rasengan, and since neither goes through the other, neither has a greater concentration of power or is pound for pound stronger than the other, it's logically impossible.


2) The spear's tip has a far smaller AoE than the flail, however the rasengan and chidori both have the same AoE, the chidori's being the size of a hand the rasengan being the size of the ball.

So nope.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Same goes when the spear is useless but the flail can get the job done.
> 
> You and I have been over this shit too many times.


Yeah and your arguments get put into the ground time and time again.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is a reason why FRS did jack shit to sandaime Raikage but his own Nukite, which is a technique nearly identical to chidori, annihilated him. Because against high durability/armor, piercing damage is the deal breaker.


It's not about "piercing damage" it's about inflicting a high amount of damage on a small AoE.  Inflict the same amount of damage on a smaller AoE and sure you can penetrate more, but your assertions don't follow from that, rather they follow from the statement that: "an attack with a smaller AoE yields more penetrating power than an attack with a larger AoE regardless of the power"  which is of course known to be false.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

lol  comparing chidori to nikute
when chidori is the genin version of nikute

nikute pierced because it is simply a stronger attack than FRS. it packs the power of a nuke in a small area hence why it goes through things FRS cant


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Except it's nothing like clashing a tip of a spear and a flail since:
> 
> 1) the spear and flail aren't energy attacks, the power of rasengan and chidori are stored in the physical manifestation of both attacks while the spear and flail's power come from the kinetic energy transfered through the points of contact of both items.  That's why both chidori and rasengan disappear after they exert the entire force of the attack on something while the spear and flail are still there after hey hit something.  Therfore, the total power in the chidori is used up when it's clashed with the total power of the rasengan, and since neither goes through the other, neither has a greater concentration of power or is pound for pound stronger than the other, it's logically impossible.
> 
> ...



Chidori and rasengan don't have the same AOE, have you even read the manga ? 

Chidori covers Sasuke's hand(in some cases it even extends beyond), but the point of impact is his finger tips.




> Yeah and your arguments get put into the ground time and time again.


Maybe in your dreams.



> It's not about "piercing damage" it's about inflicting a high amount of damage on a small AoE.  Inflict the same amount of damage on a smaller AoE and sure you can penetrate more, but your assertions don't follow from that, rather they follow from the statement that: "an attack with a smaller AoE yields more penetrating power than an attack with a larger AoE regardless of the power"  which is of course known to be false.


Do you even know what piercing damage is ?

I also didn't make a generalization that an attack with smaller aoe is stronger than a big aoe attack. 
I said it is pound per pound more penetrative in their area of interraction with their target, and contextually I was referring to FRS and Chidori. 
There is no doubt that FRS packs a much greater punch than chidori. Never denied that.


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## ueharakk (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Chidori and rasengan don't have the same AOE, have you even read the manga ?


As far as the area in which the techniques exert their power through contact, they do as explained and that's the only thing that matters in this comparison since we are comparing how both interact when slammed into each other therefore power over point of contact vs power over point of contact.

Then there's the fact that chidori having a smaller AoE HURTS your argument rather than helps it since despite its smaller AoE, it doesn't penetrate the rasengan which isn't possible if it has a greater damage per AoE.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Chidori covers Sasuke's hand(in some cases it even extends beyond), but the point of impact is his finger tips.


It's not his fingertips, it's the lightning chakra surrounding his hand which is why we see chidori used like *this* and why sasuke's fingertips have never touched a rasengan despite clashing chidori with it many times.

So nope, rasengan and chidori cancel each other out.  If chidori had a greater damage per area, it would penetrate through the rasengan and hit naruto's arm since across the point of contact it's outdamaging the rasengan.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Maybe in your dreams.


Well refuting your points is something I could do in my sleep, so hey maybe...



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you even know what piercing damage is ?


If you feel my explanation is invalid, explain why.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> *
> I also didn't make a generalization that an attack with smaller aoe is stronger than a big aoe attack.*
> I said it is pound per pound more penetrative in their area of interraction with their target, and contextually I was referring to FRS and Chidori.
> There is no doubt that FRS packs a much greater punch than chidori. Never denied that.


This is a perfect example of refuting your arguments in my sleep.

I didn't even state the bolded, I said it 'penetrates more' or 'more penetrating power', not a comparison of the attack's overall power which means you're just attacking a strawman and that's exactly what you've done.  You just state that because the nukite performed this way against Sandaime raikage and chidori is similar to the nukite, it has more penetrating power, or greater concentration of damage vs AoE than FRS which can only be claimed based on the premises if you assume that smaller AoE = more penetrating power or penetrates more regardless of overall power of each attack.


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## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

FRS is a Futon powered up by Kurama's Chakra in Sandaime Raikage's scenario. That alone implies that FRS naturally has a higher penetrative force than Sasuke's Chidori.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> As far as the area in which the techniques exert their power through contact, they do as explained and that's the only thing that matters in this comparison since we are comparing how both interact when slammed into each other therefore power over point of contact vs power over point of contact.
> 
> Then there's the fact that chidori having a smaller AoE HURTS your argument rather than helps it since despite its smaller AoE, it doesn't penetrate the rasengan which isn't possible if it has a greater damage per AoE.



Spear vs flail.




> It's not his fingertips, it's the lightning chakra surrounding his hand which is why we see chidori used like *this* and why sasuke's fingertips have never touched a rasengan despite clashing chidori with it many times.


*this*
*this*



> So nope, rasengan and chidori cancel each other out.  If chidori had a greater damage per area, it would penetrate through the rasengan and hit naruto's arm since across the point of contact it's outdamaging the rasengan.



Read above.




> Well refuting your points is something I could do in my sleep, so hey maybe...


I am glad we agree on something at least.






> This is a perfect example of refuting your arguments in my sleep.
> 
> I didn't even state the bolded, I said it 'penetrates more' or 'more penetrating power', not a comparison of the attack's overall power which means you're just attacking a strawman and that's exactly what you've done.  You just state that because the nukite performed this way against Sandaime raikage and chidori is similar to the nukite, it has more penetrating power, or greater concentration of damage vs AoE than FRS which can only be claimed based on the premises if you assume that smaller AoE = more penetrating power or penetrates more regardless of overall power of each attack.




Like I said, I never made a generalization. Contextually speaking, in the case of FRS and Chidori, a piercing attack that is concetrated on a smaller area will have more piercing power than a non piercing attack that is spead over a much larger area.

Countless examples support this through out the manga(YRS on JJ Madara vs Sasuke's sword on JJ Madara), but sure, be my guest and try to refute it in your sleep.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

So6p chidori simply had more cutting power 
Than naruto holding back 
He wasn't even in cloaked form 

Was a weaker attack because naruto holding back is weaker than sasuke going for the kill

Same way genin sasuke chidori is much weaker than hebi sasuke . 

Sasuke chidori would be Nikute level if he was stronger . PS chidori shits on nikute for example 

It's all about the ninja level .


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## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, I never made a generalization. Contextually speaking, in the case of FRS and Chidori, * a piercing attack that is concetrated on a smaller area will have more piercing power than a non piercing attack that is spead over a much larger area. *



 In that case, Chidori is superior to Kirin despite Kirin being stated to be stronger than any Raiton technique that one can naturally create using Chakra.

 I see Area playing a role, but it really doesn't matter in this scenario when KCM Naruto's FRS has incredible amounts of rotational energy and easily engulfs the entire Raikage's body which should have logically caused his body to disintegrate as opposed to Chidori which is inferior in this regard yet it didn't.


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## Ashi (May 14, 2015)

Are you guys going somewhere or are you just patting yourselves on the back


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## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Are you guys going somewhere or are you just patting yourselves on the back



 Pretty much the latter.


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## TheGreen1 (May 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Pretty much the latter.



I'm surprised this is even a Debate here. 3rd Raikage would be the worst opponent for Sasuke to face as Hebi Sasuke outside of Ai with both arms. I mean, how does Sasuke pierce that Lightning armor and tough body of the 3rd? Chidori at that level isn't cutting it.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> I'm surprised this is even a Debate here. 3rd Raikage would be the worst opponent for Sasuke to face as Hebi Sasuke outside of Ai with both arms. I mean, how does Sasuke pierce that Lightning armor and tough body of the 3rd? Chidori at that level isn't cutting it.



 Because common sense is hard to find nowadays.


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## ARGUS (May 17, 2015)

Sasuke gets shat on, 

 -- No means of hurting the raikage in any whatsoever added to the fact that he isnt evading the raikage either, not when it required war arc SM narutos top sensing to be able to evade him, who is well above the likes of sasuke in reactions and speed. especially when we considder the fact that sick itachi blitzed hebi sasuke and base bee clowned him in a CQC brawl, a stronger and faster character would logically do muc much worse 

 -- Manda gets pooped on by nukite within a second, not only is it too slow to land a hit on the raikage but it has no means of battling the raikage when the lattter stalemated a fkn  bijuu, nukite lands and the summon gets finished, meaning the next move results in sasuke getting drilled through 

 -- Prepping kirin is not just unlikely but its also futile seeing how a comparable attack with elemtental advatnage over the raikages armor failed, meaning that kirin fails too, sasuke is also putting himself in danger from using that,  

 -- all in all sasuke gets murked,


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## Amol (May 17, 2015)

It is laughable to suggest Hebi Sasuke is any close to SM Naruto.
Third Raikage fought 8 Tails to draw.
Unless you are an idiot who needs spoon feeding for everything it makes two things clear 
1) Third Raikage tanked Bijudama
Or
2) Third Raikage somehow managed to outrun rediculous AoE of it all the time.
So any case Kirin is not doing jack shit  to him AND I need manga proof of creation of Kirin without use of Amaterasu . Who knows how much time it takes for Basic Katons to heat up atmosphere to the level of Black Flames . There is a reason why Sasuke didn't use it after that fight because it needs rediculous amount of preparation .
So as things strands Third Raikage murders him without straining himself.


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