# Doflamingo + Law vs. Sabo + Luffy



## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

Location: Dressrosa

Starting Distance: 30 meters

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Restrictions: Parasite

Knowledge: Manga

How does this go?


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## Kaiser (Jul 5, 2014)

Luffy is equal if not stronger than Law going by portrayal. Sabo is clearly stronger than Doflamingo. Obviously Sabo and Luffy win this. One could argue Sabo can actually solo


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

Holy hell, that's barely a fight. Sabo is stronger than DD and Luffy is stronger than Law (generally speaking). Luffy and Sabo take this about mid-diff if Sabo helps out Luffy after cleaning up DD.


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## Extravlad (Jul 5, 2014)

Sabo would beat Luffy + Dofla + Law.


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

Why do people think Sabo >> Doflamingo?


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## Extravlad (Jul 5, 2014)

> Why do people think Sabo >> Doflamingo?


Sabo doesn't run away when he's in front of an admiral.


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Why do people think Sabo >> Doflamingo?



Because Sabo is Fuji's opponent currently. He is roughly on Fuji's level, while it is generally accepted that Doflamingo isn't admiral level, and for a good reason. If he were, after all, DD wouldn't have walked away from Kuzan so easily. Not to mention he is clearly a bit worried about Fuji.


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## tanman (Jul 5, 2014)

Sabo and Luffy take it with high difficulty.

Sabo takes out Doflamingo with high difficulty (Law will make it even trickier than that with his haxx). When he's finished, he'll able to help Luffy with Law.


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

Are you guys serious? Sabo is trying to protect his brother and therefore has an invested interest in fighting Fujitora right now.

There was no reason for Doflamingo to attack Aokiji, he would have literally been risking his life for nothing which is stupid.

If Doflamingo was actually scared of the idea of fighting an admiral he wouldn't have attacked Smoker in front of Aokiji nor would he attack Fujitora for saying something he didn't like.


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## Datassassin (Jul 5, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> it is generally accepted that Doflamingo isn't admiral level, and for a good reason. If he were, after all, DD wouldn't have walked away from Kuzan so easily.



It's perfectly reasonable to see Doflamingo as below Admiral level, that's obvious, but the reasoning here....eh. Even take two people on the essentially the same level, Kizaru and Aokiji; hypothetically one walks away from a fight with the other. This act inherently shows inferiority? No. A fight between the two would be messy, painful, and hell for both parties. Doflamingo's overall portrayal doesn't reach the high bar of an Admiral's = a sensible statement. Doflamingo decided to not have an unnecessary intense battle so this in itself is a sign of inferiority = silly statement.



TheRooMan said:


> Not to mention he is clearly a bit worried about Fuji.


Anyone without too much cockiness would have some concern about facing an Admiral doe.

But yeah the matchup itself: very circumstantial. Law only needs to land one good hit to take Luffy out the game, while Law likely has nowhere near the durability to withstand one of Luffy's stronger strikes. I could see Sabo and Doflamingo going at it for a while until a winner is decided between Luffy vs Law, which would then directly decide the winner of Doflamingo vs Sabo (since Doflamingo with even a tired Law's help could beat Sabo, while Sabo with a tired Luffy's help would soundly put Doflamingo down).


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Are you guys serious? Sabo is trying to protect his brother and therefore has an invested interest in fighting Fujitora right now.
> 
> There was no reason for Doflamingo to attack Aokiji, he would have literally been risking his life for nothing which is stupid.
> 
> If Doflamingo was actually scared of the idea of fighting an admiral he wouldn't have attacked Smoker in front of Aokiji nor would he attack Fujitora for saying something he didn't like.



Sabo's portrayal is better. Not to mention that his battle with Fujitora seems to be going quite well. If Fuji were fighting DD, Doflamingo would already be pushed pretty hard by now, I'm sure. Sabo and Fuji are true top tiers whereas DD is more like top of the high tier.


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## Extravlad (Jul 5, 2014)

> No. A fight between the two would be messy, painful, and hell for both parties. D


If DD was as strong as Kuzan he could have killed Smoker and then escaped from the fight.
But he did not, because Kuzan would have wiped the floor with him if he tried to do something like that.
DD's goal was to kill Smoker, and he failed just because Kuzan gave him a warning.

How is that not proving the huge gap between an admiral and DD?


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> Sabo's portrayal is better. Not to mention that his battle with Fujitora seems to be going quite well. If Fuji were fighting DD, Doflamingo would already be pushed pretty hard by now, I'm sure. Sabo and Fuji are true top tiers whereas DD is more like top of the high tier.



 Instead of just posting your opinion why not post some evidence to support it too, because I disagree with all of it except how his fight is going as it is too soon to tell at this point.


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## Ruse (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Instead of just posting your opinion why not post some evidence to support it too, because I disagree with all of it except how his fight is going as it is too soon to tell at this point.



Sabo does have better portrayal though, Doffy hauled ass after one casual attack from a casual Kuzan while Sabo is currently fighting on par with Fujitora.


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## Datassassin (Jul 5, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> If DD was as strong as Kuzan he could have killed Smoker and then escaped from the fight. But he did not, because Kuzan would have wiped the floor with him if he tried to do something like that. DD's goal was to kill Smoker, and he failed just because Kuzan gave him a warning. How is that not proving the huge gap between an admiral and DD?



(the line you quoted was about Kizaru vs Aokiji but doesn't matter really)

Do you not see how one might want to avoid an intense battle? Possibly? Perhaps? He did try to kill Smoker anyway, then gave up because it was made clear further efforts, successful or not, would result in a full on fight with Aokiji.

Aokiji in no reality, as it stands in current OP, is 'wiping the floor' with Doflamingo. He's winning but he'll be wounded and it won't be with any sort of ease. Doflamingo, who has seen the strength of Admirals up close and better than most, planned to have Fujitora killed and while leaving Punk Hazard implied to Aokiji that he'd be open to fighting him under different circumstances (, unless with a different translation the message is completely different...which it could be. >_>) There's a gap but it surely is not huge. I don't see how you could read Doflamingo's encounter with Aokiji, Doflamingo kicking Fujitora and plotting his death, etc and take away "Doflamingo would get totally thrashed by these doods low dif".


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Instead of just posting your opinion why not post some evidence to support it too, because I disagree with all of it except how his fight is going as it is too soon to tell at this point.



It isn't really an opinion. Sabo's portrayal is better. DD isn't as close to Admiral level as Sabo is. That is why DD is Luffy's opponent, and Fuji is Sabo's. After fighting Doflamingo, Luffy may get stronger, but he still won't be quite at Admiral level yet. You know how strong those guys are, right? I don't mean to hype them unrealistically, but they are at the top with the Yonkou. Doflamingo is scared shitless of Kaido, which means that he is significantly weaker than Admiral/Yonkou level.


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Sabo does have better portrayal though, Doffy hauled ass after one casual attack from a casual Kuzan while Sabo is currently fighting on par with Fujitora.



No that does not give Sabo better portrayal. Sabo has a reason to fight Fujitora. Doflamingo had no reason to fight Kuzan.


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## Datassassin (Jul 5, 2014)

> Doflamingo is scared shitless of Kaido, which means that he is significantly weaker than Admiral/Yonkou level.



Kaido has a giant army of Zoan fighters presumably aside from his actual core crew so.....Doflamingo sweating the idea of Kaido gunning for him makes sense since he has....a few M3-level people and a couple below that are respectable too.


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> No that does not give Sabo better portrayal. Sabo has a reason to fight Fujitora. Doflamingo had no reason to fight Kuzan.



That specific instance might not be a great example, but Sabo isn't just fighting Fuji to stall him from Luffy. His attitude clearly suggests he expects no worse a scenario than stalemate.


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> Kaido has a giant army of Zoan fighters presumably aside from his actual core crew so.....Doflamingo sweating the idea of Kaido gunning for him makes sense since he has....a few M3-level people and a couple below that are respectable too.



While that may be true, don't you think Doflamingo fully expects to use all of the fighters at his disposal to fight against an Admiral? He'd be damn foolish to attempt that kind of battle alone. No way does Doflamingo (on his own) pose a threat to an Admiral.


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## Extravlad (Jul 5, 2014)

> Do you not see how one might want to avoid an intense battle? Possibly? Perhaps? He did try to kill Smoker anyway, then gave up because it was made clear further efforts, successful or not, would result in a full on fight with Aokiji.


As I said before, DD can kill Smoker and walk way easily, if he's really close to Aokiji's lvl it shouldn't be a problem, we've seen fighters like Vista and Jozu stalemating Yonko lvl fighters without much trouble.
He gave up because he could NOT kill Smoker, not because he wanted to avoid a fight.
Kuzan could have fodderized him, that's why DD ran away, he knew it was pointless to try anything.



> Aokiji in no reality, as it stands in current OP, is 'wiping the floor' with Doflamingo


Aokiji would low diff Doflamingo, Doflamingo is not a toptier, he's the strongest high tier but no match for Kuzan who's one of the strongest toptier in the OPVERSE.



> He's winning but he'll be wounded and it won't be with any sort of ease.


He wouldn't be wounded at all, if Marco and Vista can't give serious injuries to an exhausted Sakazuki, why would DD do any better? He's weaker than both of them.



> Doflamingo, who has seen the strength of Admirals up close and better than most, planned to have Fujitora killed


Yes he would have a chance to kill Fujitora with his whole family behind him, Sugar's hax and Pica's giant indestructible body as a bait.
He never implied that he would do it by himself, because obvious Fuji is stronger than him by a good margin;



> Doflamingo kicking Fujitora


Compare Dofla kicking Fujitora and Marco kicking Kizaru, and then you'll understand why Dofla is nowhere close to toptiers.


Dofla would get trashed low diff because he is gonna lose to Luffy who is already confirmed by Oda himself as a joke to Sakazuki (an admiral).

The first boss of the new world has to be MUCH weaker than the absolute toptiers of OP.


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> It isn't really an opinion. Sabo's portrayal is better. DD isn't as close to Admiral level as Sabo is. That is why DD is Luffy's opponent, and Fuji is Sabo's. After fighting Doflamingo, Luffy may get stronger, but he still won't be quite at Admiral level yet. You know how strong those guys are, right? I don't mean to hype them unrealistically, but they are at the top with the Yonkou. Doflamingo is scared shitless of Kaido, which means that he is significantly weaker than Admiral/Yonkou level.



None of this is evidence of Sabo > Doflamingo. Saying your opinion isn't evidence of it being correct. I can say Doflamingo > Sabo, but without evidence it is just an opinion.

Doflamingo is scared of Kaido, because of his viciousness not his strength. If he was scared of Kaido because of his personal strength he would be scared of admirals too, but he has shown he isn't.

Post something supporting the idea that Sabo's potrayal and combat ability is better than Doflamingo instead of just stating it as if it is fact.


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> None of this is evidence of Sabo > Doflamingo. Saying your opinion isn't evidence of it being correct. I can say Doflamingo > Sabo, but without evidence it is just an opinion.
> 
> Doflamingo is scared of Kaido, because of his viciousness not his strength. If he was scared of Kaido because of his personal strength he would be scared of admirals too, but he has shown he isn't.
> 
> Post something supporting the idea that Sabo's potrayal and combat ability is better than Doflamingo instead of just stating it as if it is fact.



I didn't say it was a fact. It's called _portrayal._ Portrayal is pretty much the next best thing to feats that we have for measuring a reasonable outcome of a match. Portrayal is more like the generally accepted consensus or something. What I'm saying is that Oda portrays Sabo as stronger than Doflamingo by all relevant accounts. This is done by putting Sabo closer to Admiral level than Doflamingo.


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## Datassassin (Jul 5, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> As I said before, DD can kill Smoker and walk way easily, if he's really close to Aokiji's lvl it shouldn't be a problem, we've seen fighters like Vista and Jozu stalemating Yonko lvl fighters without much trouble.
> He gave up because he could NOT kill Smoker, not because he wanted to avoid a fight.
> Kuzan could have fodderized him, that's why DD ran away, he knew it was pointless to try anything.



Uhh. I don't know where you're getting the idea that a weaker character being protected by a stronger character would die by being in the vicinity of another stronger character. Aokiji would obviously be able to protect him ?__? Vista is also a questionable example, given the amount of nonsense in Marineford. Mihawk 'not holding back' was unable to chop up Luffy. A swordsman who couldn't even injure Akainu with a surprise direct hit can hold off a Mihawk who 'is really earnestly trying to break through'. 

Also 'fodderize' is so casually thrown around on here.



> Aokiji would low diff Doflamingo





> He wouldn't be wounded at all


Well I probably can't change your mind.




> He never implied that he would do it by himself, because obvious Fuji is stronger than him by a good margin;


There's nothing 'obvious' at this point when strings Doflamingo isn't even actively controlling or putting force behind slice through multiple large meteors from Fujitora. If there's an 'obvious good margin' or anything of the sort, Oda has yet to illustrate it.



> Compare Dofla kicking Fujitora and Marco kicking Kizaru, and then you'll understand why Dofla is nowhere close to toptiers.


You mean Marco, for whom legs provide his main means of attack? Who kicked Kizaru for 0 damage and a sarcastic reaction?



> Dofla would get trashed low diff because he is gonna lose to Luffy who is already confirmed by Oda himself as a joke to Sakazuki (an admiral).


If that's what ya want to think then.


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> I didn't say it was a fact. It's called _portrayal._ Portrayal is pretty much the next best thing to feats that we have for measuring a reasonable outcome of a match. Portrayal is more like the generally accepted consensus or something. *What I'm saying is that Oda portrays Sabo as stronger than Doflamingo by all relevant accounts. This is done by putting Sabo closer to Admiral level than Doflamingo.*



You are almost there, now just show me how Oda has done the bolded.


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> You are almost there, now just show me how Oda has done the bolded.



Sabo actually engaged an Admiral in a full-on fight. The most Doflamingo has done was kick Fuji once. And that's knowing that Fuji would do nothing serious to him considering they were (albeit reluctantly) working together to get Luffy and Law. Therefore, Sabo's portrayal has been handled better by Oda. Doflamingo may have talked some smack, but Sabo brought action to the table.


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## Ruse (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> No that does not give Sabo better portrayal. Sabo has a reason to fight Fujitora. Doflamingo had no reason to fight Kuzan.



Oda is showing that Sabo can compete with an Admiral and give him a hard time, Doffy doesn't have that kind of portrayal


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## Orca (Jul 5, 2014)

I'm a bit torn on how strong Doflamingo actually is. Depending on the opponents that Luffy will fight between Doffy and Kaido, I'll be able to better gauge how far doffy is from admiral level. Until then I just have tentative arguments to work with.

One thing I'm almost certain of is that Sabo is stronger than Doflamingo. Therefore Team Sabo+Luffy wins but with how much difficulty? I don't know.

Doflamingo being scared of Kaido only tells us that Kaido is stronger. It doesn't tell us how much stronger. Plus there's the fact that Kaido has a much bigger crew and Influence. Doffy has every reason to be scared because he could lose everything he's worked for.


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

Smh I will repeat again that Doflamingo had no reason to fight Kuzan. Sabo does not automatically get better portrayal than Doflamingo because he is fighting an admiral. We don't even know if Sabo is a legitimate challenge for Fujitora yet, so I don't know why you guys want to use the fight as proof of superiority. Is there absolutely anything else you guys can use as an argument?


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

Luffee said:


> One thing I'm almost certain of is that Sabo is stronger than Doflamingo.



Why are you almost certain?


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## Ruse (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Smh I will repeat again that Doflamingo had no reason to fight Kuzan. Sabo does not automatically get better portrayal than Doflamingo because he is fighting an admiral. *We don't even know if Sabo is a legitimate challenge for Fujitora yet*, so I don't know why you guys want to use the fight as proof of superiority. Is there absolutely anything else you guys can use as an argument?



If he wasn't the fight would already be over 

Sabo legitimately holding his own against Issho isn't better portrayal than embarrassing the likes of Sanji/Smoker?


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Smh I will repeat again that Doflamingo had no reason to fight Kuzan. Sabo does not automatically get better portrayal than Doflamingo because he is fighting an admiral. We don't even know if Sabo is a legitimate challenge for Fujitora yet, so I don't know why you guys want to use the fight as proof of superiority. Is there absolutely anything else you guys can use as an argument?



There really isn't anything else. You can make excuses all you want about that encounter, but it counts toward _portrayal._ If you want to believe that Doflamingo is stronger, go ahead. I'm not trying to stop you. How about, for a change, _you_ tell _us_ why you think the way you do?


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> If he wasn't the fight would already be over
> 
> Sabo legitimately holding his own against Issho isn't better portrayal than embarrassing the likes of Sanji/Smoker?



Holding your own isn't the same as a legitimate challenge. Jozu could hold of Aokiji for a while, it doesn't mean he had a chance in hell at winning.

Plus Sabo isn't the one with his abilities nerfed in Birdcage. You remember Birdcage right? The cage Doflamingo casually put up around the whole country that makes swiss cheese out of meteors.


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> There really isn't anything else. You can make excuses all you want about that encounter, but it counts toward _portrayal._ If you want to believe that Doflamingo is stronger, go ahead. I'm not trying to stop you. How about, for a change, _you_ tell _us_ why you think the way you do?



Except it doesn't count towards better portrayal, because you are simply guessing that Doflamingo would do worse in the same scenario.

I will make proper argument for Doflamingo being stronger and then we can go from there. It may take a little time, but I will definitely put it up.


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## Orca (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Why are you almost certain?



Doffy is about to lose to Luffy. I don't see how Luffy can beat Sabo even with a little bit PIS lol


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Doffy is about to lose to Luffy. I don't see how Luffy can beat Sabo even with a little bit PIS lol



Are you sure Luffy is going to win alone and are you sure there will only be a little PIS?


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## Ruse (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Holding your own isn't the same as a legitimate challenge. Jozu could hold of Aokiji for a while, it doesn't mean he had a chance in hell at winning.
> 
> Plus Sabo isn't the one with his abilities nerfed in Birdcage. You remember Birdcage right? The cage Doflamingo casually put up around the whole country that makes swiss cheese out of meteors.



Birdcage just means he can't drop meteors there should be a hell of a lot more Issho can do considering this is the first serious fight he's been in this arc.


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## 2Broken (Jul 5, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Birdcage just means he can't drop meteors there should be a hell of a lot more Issho can do considering this is the first serious fight he's been in this arc.



So that fact that he has only needed to use swordplay so far is not a good sign is it?


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## Suit (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Are you sure Luffy is going to win alone and are you sure there will only be a little PIS?



In order to develop Luffy's strength, he will need to take this fight alone. If he can't fight someone who is that considerably below Admiral level at this late in the game, then goodness help him. We're not talking about Kishimoto who makes his character stagnate for 300 chapters then suddenly BAM! Big ass power-up. This is Oda. Not to mention Luffy has not shown any development with the other fights he's had since the TS. To need help against DD would mean that Luffy has not gotten any stronger whatsoever for the past three arcs. Sorry, but that is simply unacceptable by Oda's standards.


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## tanman (Jul 5, 2014)

I suspect that Sabo is somewhere between Doflamingo/Jozu and Marco/Fujitora. The scale of the attacks he's shown thus far are by no means beyond the realm of Doflamingo/Jozu. Nor is the feat of taking out a veteran vice admiral easily in CQC.

Instead, what I'm thinking most people seem to be counting on is that the current fight between Sabo and Fujitora is going better than a fight between Doflamingo/Jozu and Fujitora. But I think that's based off the misconception that a) someone like Doflamingo couldn't have a lengthy and close fight with Fujitora and b) Fujitora is automatically so close to the color trio in power that he might as well be equal.

Hell, when I started typing, I wanted to explain why I thought Sabo was stronger than Doflamingo. But I really can't defend that opinion anymore.

*By feats, it's true that Doflamingo and Law should be capable of a victory.*


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## Ruse (Jul 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> So that fact that he has only needed to use swordplay so far is not a good sign is it?



Dat logic  

Sabo has only needed his pipe so far whats your point?  

I can't believe I'm actually arguing for Sabo as it's usually the other way round.


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## Slenderman (Jul 5, 2014)

I think that Sabo and Luffy win. Simply put, Sabo has more going for him in the story, while DD is soon going to get beat by luffy, Oda has basically shown Sabo to be stronger. 

Sabo is the second in command in the Revo's. An organization whom's mission is to destroy the WG. Compared to DD, an arc villain whom is about to get defeated by a Luffy who came to the NW 3 days ago. The difference is quite big, and this is all we have to go off on. 

Luffy and Law should pretty much be equal but I see luffy taking Law with extreme diff but after Sabo mid-high diff's Doffy (imo) He can help Luffy make the fight finish much quicker. 

Overall team 2 wins on the lower end of high diff.


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## 108CaliberPhoenix (Jul 6, 2014)

Portrayal as the story is presently does put both Sabo above Doflamingo and at this point luffy

should be put above law seeing as law has been defeated and Luffy is supposed to defeat dofla

However Doflamingo and Law have hax on their side and who's to say DD can't just parasite Sabo/Luffy

and them as a team should be extra dangerous their powers complement each other well the brothers will

have to be very cautious


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## 2Broken (Jul 6, 2014)

*Doflamingo > Sabo*

Both characters have equally impressive ranking and have demonstrated great power, but lets directly compare their and abilities into the three catergories that determine the strength of a character.  

*Physical* 

Physically Doflamingo has been just as impressive as Sabo. Sure Sabo has his unique martial arts and has shown his Dragon Claw to be very powerful, but Doflamgo has shown his own acrobatic type of combat and his kicks have comparable destructive power to Sabo's attacks.



^He did that with a single none enhanced kick.  

Sabo's best Physical feat was this  

Sabo used CoA for his attack, but they were both equally impressive. Physically speaking they seem about even in the power department. Neither has shown to be faster than the other and for now they it looks as if neither could dominate each other physically.

*Haki* 

In the haki department Doflamingo has shown to be comparable with Sabo. Sabo has definitely shown he has powerful CoA with his Dragon Claw feats. However Doflamingo has no sold an explosive round to the face, Dianble Jambe and Jet Gatling. He has proven his mastery of CoA to the same extent. Neither has shown enough CoO to try to make a comparison and CoC wouldn't matter in a battle between the two.

*Devil Fruit*

Lastly is the devil fruit abilities and this is where Sabo fails short. They are both physical monsters with powerful haki, but Doflamingo's devil fruit abilities are on another level. Sabo just got the Mera Mera and is still just getting the hang of how to use it. Doflamingo has arguably the greatest devil fruit mastery in the series. His mastery of his fruit gives him abilities ranging from pseudo-flight, clones, surrounding an entire island in a cage, etc. The range, power, versatility, hax and any other meaningful category for devil fruit abilities that Doflamingo has shown with the Ito Ito far surpasses anything Sabo can manage with the Mera Mera.

Therefore in my opininion Doflamingo is the overall better combatant. As I see it the mastery he has over his fruit gives him the edge on Sabo. Sabo would need to be substantially better physically and/or have much better haki to be able to beat Doflamingo and he simply has not show it.


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## tanman (Jul 6, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> I think that Sabo and Luffy win. Simply put, Sabo has more going for him in the story, while DD is soon going to get beat by luffy, Oda has basically shown Sabo to be stronger.
> 
> Sabo is the second in command in the Revo's. An organization whom's mission is to destroy the WG. Compared to DD, an arc villain whom is about to get defeated by a Luffy who came to the NW 3 days ago. The difference is quite big, and this is all we have to go off on.



It seems incredibly reductive to just call Doflamingo an arc villain. I mean, at some point we'll be able to call Akainu an arc villain. And despite how three days in the new world sounds, it means nothing when we've seen him defeat people who have been in the New World for many years. Doflamingo is the second strongest Shichibukai, considered one of the three great world powers. We've seen him restrain a character with the best strength/durability feats to date, confidently engage admirals, and treat vice admirals like children.



108CaliberPhoenix said:


> Portrayal as the story is presently does put both Sabo above Doflamingo and at this point luffy



Elaborate.



108CaliberPhoenix said:


> should be put above law seeing as law has been defeated and Luffy is supposed to defeat dofla



"Supposed to" isn't exactly airtight reasoning.
Especially when Law didn't fight Doflamingo at anywhere near full strength. And when Luffy just got dominated by the same guy.


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## Suit (Jul 6, 2014)

I still just can't understand people who think Doflamingo is on Sabo's level. This dude is second in command of the Revolutionary Army and is going toe-to-toe with an Admiral very comfortably. If Doflamingo were at that level, he would laugh his ass off at Admirals instead of cautiously planning around them and plotting on them. If Doflamingo were stronger than Sabo, he wouldn't be Luffy's opponent, he'd be Sabo's. Basically, you claim that Luffy > Sabo by a considerable margin if you think DD > Sabo due to the fact Luffy will be defeating Doflamingo. And it would be absolutely silly to think that Luffy is stronger than Sabo. 

I'll be proven right as the story advances a little more, but it's annoying that people are in such denial that they can't see the obvious. The satisfaction of being right will heal all of that though. I'm done here.


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## 2Broken (Jul 6, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> I still just can't understand people who think Doflamingo is on Sabo's level. This dude is second in command of the Revolutionary Army and is going toe-to-toe with an Admiral very comfortably. If Doflamingo were at that level, he would laugh his ass off at Admirals instead of cautiously planning around them and plotting on them. If Doflamingo were stronger than Sabo, he wouldn't be Luffy's opponent, he'd be Sabo's. Basically, you claim that Luffy > Sabo by a considerable margin if you think DD > Sabo due to the fact Luffy will be defeating Doflamingo. And it would be absolutely silly to think that Luffy is stronger than Sabo.
> 
> I'll be proven right as the story advances a little more, but it's annoying that people are in such denial that they can't see the obvious. The satisfaction of being right will heal all of that though. I'm done here.



I've busted the admiral argument like three times already you know why it's bogus. Also since you are not Oda you cannot use events that you think may happen or how you envision the manga should go as evidence to support your claim.

Sabo could be stronger than Doflamingo, but imo Doflamingo has shown better combat ability and thus I logically think he is stronger. 

Your reasoning for why you think Sabo is stronger is not logical, and that is my point. If Sabo does turn out to be stronger then that will be that, but there is no real argument to say that he is now.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jul 6, 2014)

Did you really say Dofla has shown comparable power to Sabo's attacks. All he did was hurt Law and fail to KO Kinemon while Sabo canceled out an attack that shook the Coliseum with no leverage at all then blew it up. 



2Broken said:


> Are you guys serious? Sabo is trying to protect his brother and therefore has an invested interest in fighting Fujitora right now.
> 
> There was no reason for Doflamingo to attack Aokiji, he would have literally been risking his life for nothing which is stupid.
> 
> If Doflamingo was actually scared of the idea of fighting an admiral he wouldn't have attacked Smoker in front of Aokiji nor would he attack Fujitora for saying something he didn't like.



So is this thread really a Doffy is Admiral level thread in disguise? He is not. This holding out until the very panel where it's proven 100000% is beyond ridiculous at this point. He is about to lose to Luffy&Law and still guys like the OP will probably not believe Fuji/Sabo/Marco would own the former three together until we see an even bigger group barely holding their own against Kaidou/BM.


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## Amol (Jul 6, 2014)

From story's point of view Sabo needs to be stronger than DD. DD is by no means fodder to Fuji or any Admiral . I hate that word . OPBD use that word too much. But all I can I see is DD giving admiral mid-high level of difficulty. Sabo made an admiral strain with efforts. DD was panting after casual attack from Kuzan. Not saying DD wouldn't have put some fight . He would have definitely made Kuzan to take him seriously. But thing is Oda only shown panels where DD looks 'comparatively' weaker than Sabo
like DD panting from casual attack from Kuzan who was not intending to kill and Sabo who is stalemating  Fuji who is very serious . 
I will admit that these panels are open to interpretation. But this is how I interpreted them : Sabo is stronger than DD .
I consider Luffy to be stronger than Law. 
So basically Team brothers have both members stronger than their opponents. Team brothers wins high-low diff.


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## Extravlad (Jul 6, 2014)

DD giving mid diff to someone like Sakazuki is a fanfiction.


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## Amol (Jul 6, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> DD giving mid diff to someone like Sakazuki is a fanfiction.



Wank somewhere else wanker.
Because DD who can't even give even mid-diff to admiral is planning to kill Fuji. Yes Oda has gone senile.
''Extravlad using common sense at some point of his life is fanfiction''


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## Extravlad (Jul 6, 2014)

> Wank somewhere else wanker.


That's actually a nice joke coming from you.



> Because DD who can't even give even mid-diff to admiral is planning to kill Fuji.


Read One Piece from chapter 1 to 752, Dofla is planning to kill Fuji with his whole family behind him, not that hard with Pica's unkillable golem form and Sugar's hax.



> Yes Oda has gone senile.


Well you know One Piece better than Oda remember when you clarified his terrible statement about Akainu being much stronger than Current Luffy, so maybe you could replace him and show us how strong Doflamingo actually is?



> ''Extravlad using common sense at some point of his life is fanfiction''


Teach me Amol-senpai plz I want to have an opinion as good as yours.
Yami Teach is absolutely not a fodder to Akainu, despite his humiliation against a half-faced WB.
Akainu would absolutely not fodderize Luffy right now even if 2 characters around Luffy's lvl were both humiliated like fodders by him.


You are one of the only poster in this section who believe that Luffy would give more than a low diff fight to the Yonko/C3 so please don't even speak about common sense.


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## Magician (Jul 6, 2014)

Sabo/Luffy win high-extreme diff.


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## tanman (Jul 6, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> I still just can't understand people who think Doflamingo is on Sabo's level. This dude is second in command of the Revolutionary Army and is going toe-to-toe with an Admiral very comfortably. If Doflamingo were at that level, he would laugh his ass off at Admirals instead of cautiously planning around them and plotting on them. If Doflamingo were stronger than Sabo, he wouldn't be Luffy's opponent, he'd be Sabo's. Basically, you claim that Luffy > Sabo by a considerable margin if you think DD > Sabo due to the fact Luffy will be defeating Doflamingo. And it would be absolutely silly to think that Luffy is stronger than Sabo.
> 
> I'll be proven right as the story advances a little more, but it's annoying that people are in such denial that they can't see the obvious. The satisfaction of being right will heal all of that though. I'm done here.



What you're not seeing is that we're debating about a fight.
We're not debating about the future of One Piece.

It's very clear that what's frustrating you is that you have very strong beliefs, but no evidence (the argument you drew above about Luffy and Sabo takes several logical leaps and your comments on Doflamingo's actions can be explained through his character traits).

As counterintuitive as it may seem, Battledome isn't about "being right," so I doubt you'll find satisfaction there.


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## Amol (Jul 6, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Dofla is planning to kill Fuji with his whole family behind him, not that hard with Pica's unkillable golem form and Sugar's



So DD is fodder but his family who are even more fodder than him stood a chance against an Admiral .(and yet according to you all SN combine can't beat Akainu)
You really don't have common sense. 
I am done with you.


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## Extravlad (Jul 6, 2014)

> So DD is fodder but his family who are even more fodder than him stood a chance against an Admiral .(and yet according to you all SN combine can't beat Akainu)


Are you retarded or you do need some help understanding how Pica's and Sugar's powers work?
Fujitora has absolutely no knowledge on the DD family, he only know Doffy and that's it, Pica is a perfect bait, an unkillable monster who has absolutely no weakness and would never be destroyed by Fujitora unless he decide to leave his golem form.
Sugar can basically oneshot Fuji if he's caught off guard just like she did to Kyros.



> You really don't have common sense.


"luffy can give mid diff to  Yonko/C3"
-Talk about common sense.
Lol.



> I am done with you.


You keep saying this but you always comeback with even more nonsense, admiral downplay and bullshit.


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## Shanks (Jul 6, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> I can't believe I'm actually arguing for Sabo as it's usually the other way round.



Me too. Lol. Extraval is arguing for Sabo too. Damn. Guess you guys ain't that bad.


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## savior2005 (Jul 6, 2014)

sabo solos


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## trance (Jul 6, 2014)

Amol said:


> Because DD who can't even give even mid-diff to admiral is planning to kill Fuji.



Doffy is also an overconfident little bastard who firmly believed that Vergo would make quick work of Law and that Luffy would *never* leave the Coliseum. He's got credibility as legitimate source of information but due to his consistent tendency to become overconfident and underestimate his enemies, we have to carefully decide which statements need to be taken seriously and which don't.


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## Shanks (Jul 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Doffy is also an overconfident little bastard who firmly believed that Vergo would make quick work of Law and that Luffy would *never* leave the Coliseum. He's got credibility as legitimate source of information but due to his consistent tendency to become overconfident and underestimate his enemies, we have to carefully decide which statements need to be taken seriously and which don't.



Actually, PIS against the main characters crew should not dis-credit an intelligent  calculating antagonist like Doflamingo. If we're going to discredit DD for these, then all past and future antagonist could be considered as over-confident also.

If anything DD wasn't over-confident with taking out Fuji, because he state it's not going to be easy. IMO with prep and with the right members of his crew I can see Dofla team taking out Fuji.


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## Extravlad (Jul 6, 2014)

Dofla sending Vergo to deal with Law,the G5 and the SHs was a stupid decision, based on that we cannot trust Doffy anymore.

Even if Vergo was actually stronger than Law, there's no way he would have defeated the alliance.


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## trance (Jul 6, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Actually, PIS against the main characters crew should not dis-credit an intelligent  calculating antagonist like Doflamingo. If we're going to discredit DD for these, then all past and future antagonist could be considered as over-confident also.
> 
> If anything DD wasn't over-confident with taking out Fuji, because he state it's not going to be easy. IMO with prep and with the right members of his crew I can see Dofla team taking out Fuji.



It's not PIS if it's consistent with his character and for Doffy, it is. It's the same reason Cell's statement of being a solar system buster isn't taken seriously despite having credibility as a legitimate source (well, enough anyway).

My point is that he's underestimated others/overestimated him (or his allies) and this has been proven by them being stronger or more than he was capable of handling. His confrontation against Kuzan holds this subtle implication IMO. Kuzan was right behind him and his reputation of being a true Admiral level is very much well known to Doffy (since he saw him fight in the War) yet ignored his presence and tried to kill Smoker anyway? Why is this? My guess is a slight underestimation of Kuzan's abilities


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## Amol (Jul 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Doffy is also an overconfident little bastard who firmly believed that Vergo would make quick work of Law and that Luffy would *never* leave the Coliseum. He's got credibility as legitimate source of information but due to his consistent tendency to become overconfident and underestimate his enemies, we have to carefully decide which statements need to be taken seriously and which don't.



He was overconfident about Vergo beating law. But we still know that Vergo had chance to beat law. It wasn't a hopeless cause from Vergo's side . So DD's confidence on Vergo was not that off the mark . DD hadn't counted on Sabo showing up. So he thought  luffy being tired after all the fighting in colosseum(opponents like jesus burgess) would be easy to kill. There is some sense in those assumption and DD was not totally wrong in them.
What I am saying is that DD is planning to kill Fuji which he can't do , if he is not capable to give mid diff to him by himself. He is the strongest member of his family. If DD himself is fodder to Admiral then his family makes no difference in fight.
Underestimating opponents is one thing but ignoring opponents strength is other . DD knows what an admiral can do. He has seen PH. He will not plan to attack Fuji if he don't think he has some chance. There is difference between overconfidence and plane stupidity. DD is veteran in NW. He understands power levels in there. He had fought War of the Best to underestimate an admiral this much.
I am not even saying he can beat an admiral . That is ridiculous. All I am saying that he should be able to give them more than mid-diff in fight .


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## Extravlad (Jul 6, 2014)

> It wasn't a hopeless cause from Vergo's side .


Vergo's goal was to kill Law,Smoker,the G5 while protecting Caesar from the SHs.
That was a hopeless cause from the start.

Terrible decision from DD.


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## trance (Jul 6, 2014)

Amol said:


> He was overconfident about Vergo beating law. But we still know that Vergo had chance to beat law. It wasn't a hopeless cause from Vergo's side . So DD's confidence on Vergo was not that off the mark . DD hadn't counted on Sabo showing up. So he thought  luffy being tired after all the fighting in colosseum(opponents like jesus burgess) would be easy to kill. There is some sense in those assumption and DD was not totally wrong in them.
> What I am saying is that DD is planning to kill Fuji which he can't do , if he is not capable to give mid diff to him by himself. He is the strongest member of his family. If DD himself is fodder to Admiral then his family makes no difference in fight.
> Underestimating opponents is one thing but ignoring opponents strength is other . DD knows what an admiral can do. He has seen PH. He will not plan to attack Fuji if he don't think he has some chance. There is difference between overconfidence and plane stupidity. DD is veteran in NW. He understands power levels in there. He had fought War of the Best to underestimate an admiral this much.
> I am not even saying he can beat an admiral . That is ridiculous. All I am saying that he should be able to give them more than mid-diff in fight .



Unexpected circumstances are to be expected, though. Surely, Doffy is intelligent enough to realize this, especially with the gravity of each situation but my point is, he still demonstrated overconfidence in those situations.


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## Shanks (Jul 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> It's not PIS if it's consistent with his character and for Doffy, it is. It's the same reason Cell's statement of being a solar system buster isn't taken seriously despite having credibility as a legitimate source (well, enough anyway).
> 
> My point is that he's underestimated others/overestimated him (or his allies) and this has been proven by them being stronger or more than he was capable of handling. His confrontation against Kuzan holds this subtle implication IMO. Kuzan was right behind him and his reputation of being a true Admiral level is very much well known to Doffy (since he saw him fight in the War) yet ignored his presence and tried to kill Smoker anyway? Why is this? My guess is a slight underestimation of Kuzan's abilities



Actually I interpret the Kuzan situation differently. The fact that he did not proceed to fight, it shows that he's not at all overconfident. Then their this situation with Fuji as I stated above. Finally , there's the thing with kaido whereby doing anything and everything he could including trying to take out an admiral just to keep his relationship intact. 

If luffy and pal isn't the main character and have everything going for them, I would put my bet on Dofla.

Dofla IMO is slightly below Fuji and Sabo.


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## trance (Jul 6, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Actually I interpret the Kuzan situation differently. The fact that he did not proceed to fight, it shows that he's not at all overconfident.



Well, yea. That was *after* he tried to ignore Kuzan and go for the kill anyway and Kuzan essentially gave him a warning. After realizing Kuzan meant business, he retreated.


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## Shanks (Jul 6, 2014)

Just means he's confident, not at all overconfident.


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## trance (Jul 6, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Just means he's confident, not at all overconfident.



He was overconfident about his situation. He was smiling the entire time. He brushed off Kuzan's presence and tried to go for the kill. He either underestimated Kuzan's abilities/overestimated his own or underestimated Kuzan's seriousness. Either or, he was proven wrong and forced to retreat.


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## Shanks (Jul 6, 2014)

No, he knew that he had more chances of loosing therefore didn't risk it. He was smiling, because he's confident enough in his ability to not get defeated , that is he could escape or maybe it's as simple as he's confident in Kuzan's character to not proceed with a slaughter feast after he decided to stop.

What did you/people expect Dofla to do in this situation? Back off right away just because a formal admiral demanded him of do so? If he did back off, everyone would call him a pussy and find more reasons to downplay him even more. The dude is as confident and he should be and much stronger than lots of people here give him credit for.


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## Firo (Jul 6, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> What did you/people expect Dofla to do in this situation? Back off right away just because a formal admiral demanded him of do so? If he did back off, everyone would call him a pussy and find more reasons to downplay him even more. The dude is as confident and he should be and much stronger than lots of people here give him credit for.



So he isnt considered a pussy for backing out after being frozen?
On a serious note, DD knew he bit off more than he could chew. Thats why he left.
OT: Sabo and Luffy High Diff


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## Suit (Jul 6, 2014)

tanman said:


> What you're not seeing is that we're debating about a fight.
> We're not debating about the future of One Piece.
> 
> It's very clear that what's frustrating you is that you have very strong beliefs, but no evidence (the argument you drew above about Luffy and Sabo takes several logical leaps and your comments on Doflamingo's actions can be explained through his character traits).
> ...



Yeah, I may have taken that a bit far due to frustration and lack of sleep. But Sabo > Luffy has to be the case because Sabo is fighting an Admiral pretty equally at the moment. And we know because of plot, Luffy ~= Doflamingo. My other biases aside, this is pretty hard to argue. I don't see how any of this is a leap in logic any more than what anyone else in this thread can make for their own case. It's really funny how no one else can present sound logic on their part but expect me to come up with better reasoning than I have. All I've gotten from my "opponents" here are retaliations that my logic isn't good enough, yet they provide none of their own.




Stαrkiller said:


> It's not PIS if it's consistent with his character and for Doffy, it is.* It's the same reason Cell's statement of being a solar system buster isn't taken seriously* despite having credibility as a legitimate source (well, enough anyway).
> 
> My point is that he's underestimated others/overestimated him (or his allies) and this has been proven by them being stronger or more than he was capable of handling. His confrontation against Kuzan holds this subtle implication IMO. Kuzan was right behind him and his reputation of being a true Admiral level is very much well known to Doffy (since he saw him fight in the War) yet ignored his presence and tried to kill Smoker anyway? Why is this? My guess is a slight underestimation of Kuzan's abilities



About this... If Frieza could destroy a planet 10 times the mass of Earth with one finger in his weakest form, then Cell's base form is eradicating solar systems pretty damn easily. No reason to doubt that statement. Just pointing that out.


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## 2Broken (Jul 6, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> It's really funny how no one else can present sound logic on their part but expect me to come up with better reasoning than I have. All I've gotten from my "opponents" here are retaliations that my logic isn't good enough, yet they provide none of their own.



I hope you don't mean me as I did post why I have the opinion that I do.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Both characters have equally impressive ranking and have demonstrated great power, but lets directly compare their and abilities into the three catergories that determine the strength of a character.  

*Physical* 

Physically Doflamingo has been just as impressive as Sabo. Sure Sabo has his unique martial arts and has shown his Dragon Claw to be very powerful, but Doflamgo has shown his own acrobatic type of combat and his kicks have comparable destructive power to Sabo's attacks.



^He did that with a single none enhanced kick.  

Sabo's best Physical feat was this  

Sabo used CoA for his attack, but they were both equally impressive. Physically speaking they seem about even in the power department. Neither has shown to be faster than the other and for now they it looks as if neither could dominate each other physically.

*Haki* 

In the haki department Doflamingo has shown to be comparable with Sabo. Sabo has definitely shown he has powerful CoA with his Dragon Claw feats. However Doflamingo has no sold an explosive round to the face, Dianble Jambe and Jet Gatling. He has proven his mastery of CoA to the same extent. Neither has shown enough CoO to try to make a comparison and CoC wouldn't matter in a battle between the two.

*Devil Fruit*

Lastly is the devil fruit abilities and this is where Sabo fails short. They are both physical monsters with powerful haki, but Doflamingo's devil fruit abilities are on another level. Sabo just got the Mera Mera and is still just getting the hang of how to use it. Doflamingo has arguably the greatest devil fruit mastery in the series. His mastery of his fruit gives him abilities ranging from pseudo-flight, clones, surrounding an entire island in a cage, etc. The range, power, versatility, hax and any other meaningful category for devil fruit abilities that Doflamingo has shown with the Ito Ito far surpasses anything Sabo can manage with the Mera Mera.

Therefore in my opininion Doflamingo is the overall better combatant. As I see it the mastery he has over his fruit gives him the edge on Sabo. Sabo would need to be substantially better physically and/or have much better haki to be able to beat Doflamingo and he simply has not show it.


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## Imagine (Jul 6, 2014)

The D bros take it highish diff. One is fighting an admiral right now, mang.


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## Suit (Jul 6, 2014)

2Broken said:


> I hope you don't mean me as I did post why I have the opinion that I do.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Okay cool. And while I certainly agree that Sabo's DF mastery isn't on DD's yet, I don't think that will matter much. We haven't seen enough from Sabo to really say that what he's done is his best. While the same thing can be said for Doflamingo, Sabo will, at very worst, be defeated by an Admiral by high diff or so. Hell, even if Fuji only mid-diffs him, it's still saying more to give an Admiral mid-diff trouble than to lose to Luffy.


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## 2Broken (Jul 6, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> Okay cool. And while I certainly agree that Sabo's DF mastery isn't on DD's yet, I don't think that will matter much. We haven't seen enough from Sabo to really say that what he's done is his best. While the same thing can be said for Doflamingo, Sabo will, at very worst, be defeated by an Admiral by high diff or so. Hell, even if Fuji only mid-diffs him, it's still saying more to give an Admiral mid-diff trouble than to lose to Luffy.



The thing is i'm not sure Sabo is going to push Fujitora to high difficulty, the fight really hasn't progressed enough to say anything other than Sabo can hold his own and his previous feats already hinted at that.

As for Luffy beating Doflamingo, since we don't even know how that will happen it cannot be used as an argument. What we do know is that Luffy has been embarassed by the man twice and that Law thinks Luffy has a 0% chance of winning without him.


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## 108CaliberPhoenix (Jul 6, 2014)

tanman said:


> Elaborate.



As much as I would love for DD to be stronger than Sabo it really doesn't look like the case.

He is 2nd in command of RA, implying he is behind Dragon alone or possibly another Marco or admiral level fighter, now actually doing battle with Fuji, and just got a power boost with ace's devil fruit. This all should hype him above DD presently who has yet to show he is on this level.



tan man said:


> "Supposed to" isn't exactly airtight reasoning.
> Especially when Law didn't fight Doflamingo at anywhere near full strength. And when Luffy just got dominated by the same guy.



How many times is that argument going to be used. I understand law was exhausted but the fact is he was beaten. Law even told Doflamingo about the D bringing a storm or whatever implying that he is trusting Luffy to beat Doflamingo.  Fyi I'm on the side who says Doflamingo does not lose to Luffy this arc and I think DD is still a lot stronger than Luffy. Crocodile and Lucci also dominated Luffy and they were ultimately defeated at the end.


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