# Stage 4 Susano'o blocked full Kyuubi bijuu dama...



## Shattering (Feb 13, 2013)

Kyuubi was like what? 10 times bigger than current Kyuubi?

*Spoiler*: __ 







Dat Kyuubi launch a bijuudama, Hashirama redirect it, and stage 4 susano'o tanks it.


Madara's susano'o doesn't even have a shield... you know where is this going right? 

Itachi's yata mirror should be able to block bijuu damas like if they were nothing  , canon!


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## mrsaphen (Feb 13, 2013)

Is it able to block this BijuuDama?



Btw. the Susanno is the perfect susanno in its unstabilized form.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Nope. That was perfect Susano'o. Nice try though.


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## Shattering (Feb 13, 2013)

mrsaphen said:


> Is it able to block this BijuuDama?
> 
> 
> 
> Btw. the Susanno is the perfect susanno in its unstabilized form.



The same one Itachi/Sasuke have showed in a smaller scale.


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## Ezekial (Feb 13, 2013)

Oh I wondered what happend in this page lol


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## Shattering (Feb 13, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Nope. That was perfect Susano'o. Nice try though.



No, it's not


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Shattering said:


> No, it's not



Yes, it is 



mrsaphen said:


> Btw. the Susanno is the perfect susanno in its unstabilized form.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 13, 2013)

Sooner or later bijuudama will become just another katon.

Those who believe that any mayor villain will end up killed by it are in denial.

The manga isn't over yet so there may be even bigger nukes ahead.


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## ueharakk (Feb 13, 2013)

1) It's not full susanoo, it's unstabilized perfect susanoo

2) bijuudama hasn't exploded yet

3) it's "blocking" it with the swords, not outright tanking it with the body

4) regardless if it's shot from 100% kurama it's the size of the bijuudama that counts, and the size is that of a standard bijuudama, the same ones that BM Naruto was slapping around.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 13, 2013)

I didn''t think that bijuu bomb has exploded just yet, so wait. Also Madara has a shitload of chakra so its very likely that his Susanoo is stronger since he can put more chakra into it.

Thats like Kenpachi about to stab Unohana in the neck and as soon as the blade touches her neck the chap ends and everyone says she tanks it. Wait until next chapter to make a basis of tanking after the effect of the explosion.


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## SaiST (Feb 13, 2013)

Shattering said:


> No, it's not


You've gotta realize that _"Perfect Susanoo"_ is a fan-term for Madara's completely materialized, and stabilized Susanoo.

It was originally used in the flavor text at the end of Chapter 588, depicting the same stage Madara's Susanoo is seen at the end of this week's chapter, but with a lower torso 'n such.


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## Coldhands (Feb 13, 2013)

There's really no denying that it's the "Perfect Susano", Madara just didn't have time to stabilize it's chakra yet.



As you can see it's identical to the "Perfect Susano" in chapter 589, it's even making the same exact pose.


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## Butō Rengoob (Feb 13, 2013)

Are people retards? Do they even read this manga? It's unstabilized PS.


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## Klue (Feb 13, 2013)

Shattering said:


> The same one Itachi/Sasuke have showed in a smaller scale.



The smaller scaled version doesn't qualify as Perfect Susanoo. Don't tell me you're even implying that it possesses the same offensive/defensive capacity.


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## Shattering (Feb 13, 2013)

Klue said:


> The smaller scaled version doesn't qualify as Perfect Susanoo. Don't tell me you're even implying that it possesses the same offensive/defensive capacity.



Not at all, just saying they are the same thing in a smaller scale, their designs make it obvious...


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## Raiken (Feb 13, 2013)

Susano'o has everything there, except it's lacking: The Bottom Half and Chakra Fixation.

And what's with people and there understanding of the word "Perfect".
Something is only truly "perfect" when it can no longer be improved upon.
This is Perfect Susano'o:

Anything below it is not. No matter how close to PS.

And 50% Kurama is around 33% the size of 100% Kurama.
Guess the Yin Chakra accounts for the size of the Bijuu?
"Yin gave them form."


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## SaiST (Feb 13, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> And what's with people and there understanding of the word "Perfect".
> Something is only truly "perfect" when it can no longer be improved upon.
> This is Perfect Susano'o:


Hence, why the fans usually reserve the term for that form.

Regardless, it was initially used in the aforementioned flavor text for what preceded it.


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## Blur (Feb 13, 2013)

Yama mirror is not invincible they said, this was only hype they said. 
Unstabilized Perfect Susanoo didnt have the hype of blocking a Bijuu Dama, and it could, and you want to tell me that a 4th stage Susanoo with a all reflecting/blocking mirror cant?
Keep on denying.


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## Sete (Feb 13, 2013)

What is amazing in those panels is Hashi catching a biju-dama like a fucking ball and trying to shove it on Madara's face.


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## BlinkST (Feb 13, 2013)

Methinks "Unstabalized perfect Susanoo" is kind of an oxymoron


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## 123456 (Feb 13, 2013)

kyuubi and susano are in squat position.And kyuubi is behind susanos's back helping block the bijudama.


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## Dariusd (Feb 13, 2013)

That fight hasn't even fully played out yet. Before we can really count feats and say PS is tanking bijuu-dama lets see what Madara actually does. I could definitely see him just either swatting it away or trying to redirect it at Hashi. It's akin to trying to say Kabuto tanked Rasengan like a boss back in part 1 based on the first panel strike.

The way how bijuu-dama has played out recently nothing would surprise me if PS just swats it away like a katon; however, if that is truly the most powerful attack by the tailed beast I don't know why Madara would state PS has a power comparable to a bijuu. Hmmm...maybe just in purely offensive terms not defense.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 13, 2013)

A non-charged bijuu dama isn't going to destroy Sasuke's or Itachi's Susanoo in one hit if that was the question trying to be answered in this thread.

Not going to happen, and Kishi wouldn't draw a hastily-constructed small bijuu dama busting a hyped technique like Susanoo. 

I don't think they can tank huge charged ones though.


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## Leptirica (Feb 13, 2013)

Of course it's not 'perfect' Susano'o. This is pre-Izuna.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> *A non-charged bijuu dama isn't going to destroy Sasuke's or Itachi's Susanoo in one hit if that was the question trying to be answered in this thread.*
> 
> Not going to happen, and Kishi wouldn't draw a hastily-constructed small bijuu dama busting a hyped technique like Susanoo.
> 
> I don't think they can tank huge charged ones though.



Says who?


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## Coldhands (Feb 13, 2013)

Leptirica said:


> This is pre-Izuna.



Wait, what? This is the VotE fight, which is after Madara took Izuna's eyes to gain EMS.


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## Leptirica (Feb 13, 2013)

JuubiSage said:


> Wait, what? This is the VotE fight, which is after Madara took Izuna's eyes to gain EMS.



No, it's not. Why would Hashirama start his story there? This is a friendly sparing match between the two of them, at about the time they founded the village.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 13, 2013)

@Pirao
There's an implication at the end of opening post.


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## Raiken (Feb 13, 2013)

Leptirica said:


> No, it's not. Why would Hashirama start his story there? This is a friendly sparing match between the two of them, at about the time they founded the village.


Are you trolling man. It's the final battle. And Madara has EMS.

In the battles depicted before the founding of Konoha. 
Madara didn't wear Armour, and had shorter hair.


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## spiritmight (Feb 13, 2013)

Leptirica said:


> No, it's not. Why would Hashirama start his story there? This is a friendly sparing match between the two of them, at about the time they founded the village.



Friendly sparring match

With Kyuubi, EMS, Wood Dragon, Giant Wood Golem, Bijudama, and 4th form Susanoo


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## Leptirica (Feb 13, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Are you trolling man. It's the final battle. And Madara has EMS.
> 
> In the battles depicted before the founding of Konoha.
> Madara didn't wear Armour, and had shorter hair.




I don't remember the eye patterns or who is wearing what kind of armor, I just don't get why Hashirama would start his story at the end of it. 


But if are sure Madara has EMS, then I guess chances I am wrong are much bigger. 

But why does Hashirama looks so amused? idk


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> @Pirao
> There's an implication at the end of opening post.



I disagree with the entirety of the OP.



Leptirica said:


> No, it's not. Why would Hashirama start his story there? This is a friendly sparing match between the two of them, at about the time they founded the village.


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## mrsaphen (Feb 13, 2013)

Leptirica said:


> No, it's not. Why would Hashirama start his story there? This is a friendly sparing match between the two of them, at about the time they founded the village.



What do you intend to do after you meet them?...You don't have to worry about it. You are just a kid after all.

look at madara's eyes.


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## Leptirica (Feb 13, 2013)

mrsaphen said:


> What do you intend to do after you meet them?...You don't have to worry about it. You are just a kid after all.
> 
> look at madara's eyes.



Yeah, I googled it. I'm more interested right now in the timeline. Because unless Madara went crazy as soon as he took Izuna's eyes, I still may be right, this could be a spar fight.



spiritmight said:


> Friendly sparring match
> 
> With Kyuubi, EMS, Wood Dragon, Giant Wood Golem, Bijudama, and 4th form Susanoo



Tell me, if you ever got around doing it, how do you imagine a sparing match between Naruto and Sasuke would look like after the war? Would they hold back on each other?


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## Dariusd (Feb 13, 2013)

Leptirica said:


> Yeah, I googled it. I'm more interested right now in the timeline. Because unless Madara went crazy as soon as he took Izuna's eyes, I still may be right, this could be a spar fight.



I thought it was clear when Madara went to bring the Kyuubi into the battle it was the final VoTE fight. Their other fights didn't seem to entail bijuu-dama or the result would be other land marks from their random friendly skirmishes. 

So far it seems both Madara and Hash have been recounting the same epic battle over and over.


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## Leptirica (Feb 13, 2013)

Okay then, you guys obviously know more about this than me. The only reason I thought that in the first place was because I don't get why would Hashirama start the story at VoTE fight. And why is no one else wondering about this?


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## MCHammerdad (Feb 13, 2013)

Leptirica said:


> Okay then, you guys obviously know more about this than me. The only reason I thought that in the first place was because I don't get why would Hashirama start the story at VoTE fight. And why is no one else wondering about this?



Its not really something to worry about? 


There were senju and uchiha far before Hashirama and madara. 


Hashi isn't capable of going to the "beginning" because it would be a tail including the Rikoudu Sennin. 

However this story takes place directly after the formation of the Leaf village, which is a beginning of sorts and is applicable.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2013)

Looks like there's a shield of sorts there.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Looks like there's a shield of sorts there.



I think it's the sword or some shit.


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## arokh (Feb 13, 2013)

Menshouha said:


> Yama mirror is not invincible they said, this was only hype they said.



"The Yata Mirror was equipped to Itachi's Susanoo, in its left hand and, is considered one of the three sacred treasures. It is said to be endowed with all nature transformations and as such changes its own characteristics depending on those of the attack it receives, making the attack entirely ineffective. Zetsu claimed that this, combined with the Sword of Totsuka held in its right hand, essentially made Itachi's Susanoo invincible."

Suck it.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> "The Yata Mirror was equipped to Itachi's Susanoo, in its left hand and, is considered one of the three sacred treasures. It is said to be endowed with all nature transformations and as such changes its own characteristics depending on those of the attack it receives, making the attack entirely ineffective. Zetsu claimed that this, combined with the Sword of Totsuka held in its right hand, essentially made Itachi's Susanoo invincible."
> 
> Suck it.



Suck what? Lol, databook 

Bijuudama = vaporized Itachi. Suck it.


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## Blur (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> "The Yata Mirror was equipped to Itachi's Susanoo, in its left hand and, is considered one of the three sacred treasures. It is said to be endowed with all nature transformations and as such changes its own characteristics depending on those of the attack it receives, making the attack entirely ineffective. Zetsu claimed that this, combined with the Sword of Totsuka held in its right hand, essentially made Itachi's Susanoo invincible."
> 
> Suck it.



That is what I meant in my post. 
Saarcasm, learn to find it.


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## arokh (Feb 13, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Suck what? Lol, databook
> 
> Bijuudama = vaporized Itachi. Suck it.



Right, cuz your fantasy > databook/manga. Susanoo + Yata = return bijuudama to sender.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> Right, cuz your fantasy > databook/manga. Susanoo + Yata = return bijuudama to sender.



In your dreams, maybe. Maybe you should show the manga scans of Yata Mirror returning anything close to a Bijuudama 

Feats >> your wanking. BTW, Bijuudama is not a nature transformation.

Bijuudama = vaporized Itachi.

Deal with it.


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## arokh (Feb 13, 2013)

It's an item in the same class as Totsuka. Zetsu's (Kishi's) comment: "It's called Yata's mirror... a shield that can turn back *any* attack."

Suck it hater. The regular bijuudama has absolutely no feats, even Suigetsu tanked it.  What you're saying is Naruto would turn Sasuke to dust with a bijuudama. You're a fanatic anti fanboy that's all.


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## Shattering (Feb 13, 2013)

Pirao said:


> In your dreams, maybe. Maybe you should show the manga scans of Yata Mirror returning anything close to a Bijuudama
> 
> Feats >> your wanking. BTW, Bijuudama is not a nature transformation.
> 
> ...



In your dreams, maybe. You should show the manga scans of Bijuudama destroying anything close to a Yata mirror 

Feats >> your wanking. BTW, Bijuudama is nature transformation.

Yata mirror = GG bijuudama.

Deal with it.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> It's an item in the same class as Totsuka. Zetsu's (Kishi's) comment: "It's called Yata's mirror... a shield that can turn back *any* attack."
> 
> Suck it hater.



Yes, the same Zetsu that said that Amaterasu is unavoidable 

Suck it wanker.



Shattering said:


> In your dreams, maybe. You should show the manga scans of Bijuudama destroying anything close to a Yata mirror



Mountains > Susano'o, Bijuudamas destroy mountains.



> Feats >> your wanking. *BTW, Bijuudama is nature transformation.*



Lol, no. Nature transformation = earth, fire, wind, etc. Bijuudama is no nature transformation. You're welcome to try to prove it, though 



> Yata mirror = GG bijuudama.



Bijuudama = GG Itachi



> Deal with it.



With Bijuudama being >>> Susano'o? With pleasure


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## Talis (Feb 13, 2013)

Its not the prefect Susanoo, it doesnt have legs and it looks way too small.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Talis said:


> Its not the prefect Susanoo, it doesnt have legs and it looks way too small.



It's perfect Susanoo in its unstabilized form, read the fucking thread and/or manga.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Feb 13, 2013)

Shattering said:


> The same one Itachi/Sasuke have showed in a smaller scale.


Negative.

There are five displayed stages of Susano'o.

Skeleton
Flesh
Clothed
Imperfect
Perfect

Thus far, only Madara has displayed the last two, and their defensive strength should be logically above that provided by the lower three.

It could be argued that Imperfect is the same as clothed as we've never seen Madara's merely clothed form. But even then, the scale of Madara's clothed Susano'o is WAY over what Itachi or Sasuke have displayed.


Menshouha said:


> Yama mirror is not invincible they said, this was only hype they said.
> Unstabilized Perfect Susanoo didnt have the hype of blocking a Bijuu Dama, and it could, and you want to tell me that a 4th stage Susanoo with a all reflecting/blocking mirror cant?
> Keep on denying.





arokh said:


> "The Yata Mirror was equipped to Itachi's Susanoo, in its left hand and, is considered one of the three sacred treasures. It is said to be endowed with all nature transformations and as such changes its own characteristics depending on those of the attack it receives, making the attack entirely ineffective. Zetsu claimed that this, combined with the Sword of Totsuka held in its right hand, essentially made Itachi's Susanoo invincible."
> 
> Suck it.


Unsure.

We've never seen the Yata Mirror directly breached.

However we've seen Itachi use the Yata Mirror in stage two Susano'o. Now we know that Itachi survived Kirin via Susano'o, but apparently it destroyed the Susano'o.

Now, combining those two facts, it's logical to assume that he raised the Yata Mirrow, but it was unable to fully block Kirin.

So if that's true, the Yata Mirror can be defeated. Itachi himself backs that up, as he says EVERY technique has a weakness.

I would think that the logical limiting factor would be how much chakra the user has. If you get hit with an attack that has more chakra than you can produce then logically you lose the war of attrition.

On another note, so much for those saying Madara didn't use his Perfect Susano'o. It may be premature, but it looks like it's coming out soon.


Leptirica said:


> I don't remember the eye patterns or who is wearing what kind of armor, I just don't get why Hashirama would start his story at the end of it.
> 
> 
> But if are sure Madara has EMS, then I guess chances I am wrong are much bigger.
> ...


Izuna died before the founding of the village, Madara challenged Hashirama well after the village was established. Partially because he was pissed that he wasn't going to be able to avenge Izuna's death near the end of their wars.

The only time that Madara had the Kyubi was at the Valley of the End, don't forget that before Hashirama gave the biju away to start the balance of power he had them ALL including the Kyubi. Madara never had the opportunity to use the kyubi against him until Hashirama let it out of his sight.

The eye design is clearly the EMS with the combination of Madara's ring and Izuna's spoke designs.

And Hashirama looks amused there because he isn't concerned that Madara just chucked a biju dama at him because he has the perfected counter, a Wood Release: Wood Man that can catch it and use it as a Rasengan. It appears that Hashirama wasn't particularly stressed in this fight.


Leptirica said:


> Okay then, you guys obviously know more about this than me. The only reason I thought that in the first place was because I don't get why would Hashirama start the story at VoTE fight. And why is no one else wondering about this?


Logically, you start a story at the beginning.

But keep in mind, he's not starting at the founding of the village, but at the easiest place to explain the answer to his question. What is a village and what are shinobi. Apparently Hashirama feels the beginning of the answer to that question is best found at the Valley of the End. Now be quiet whippersnapper and let the old man talk, he might learn ya somethin'.


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## Hiei312 (Feb 13, 2013)

To the dude who mentioned Bijuu Dama destroying mountains as a feat....Kirin destroyed the biggest Mountain kishi has ever drawn in this series and Itachi's Susano'o tanked it. (without Yata mirror unless you believe Itachi can form his full susano'o and point the shield upwards faster than a bolt of lightning...which IMO would be a much more impressive feat than tanking kirin without the shield, actually...lol)


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## arokh (Feb 13, 2013)

Actually, first stage of Susanoo blocked Kirin and it did not get destroyed. Only Itachi's clothed Susanoo has Yata.


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## BringerOfCarnage (Feb 13, 2013)

And that was how Bijuudama Ping Pong came into existence


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## Csdabest (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> Actually, first stage of Susanoo blocked Kirin and it did not get destroyed. Only Itachi's clothed Susanoo has Yata.



Actually.We don't know. Never seen nor stated. But we do know Susano-o can be activated insanely fast. Just look at how fast Madara summoned full Susano-o fourth stage


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Hiei312 said:


> To the dude who mentioned Bijuu Dama destroying mountains as a feat....Kirin destroyed the biggest Mountain kishi has ever drawn in this series and Itachi's Susano'o tanked it. (without Yata mirror unless you believe Itachi can form his full susano'o and point the shield upwards faster than a bolt of lightning...which IMO would be a much more impressive feat than tanking kirin without the shield, actually...lol)



Bijuudama vaporizes mountains. Kirin destroyed the top of a hollowed mountain. The biggest mountain Kishi has ever drawn  Talk about hyperbole.

Susano'o didn't tank it, since it was destroyed in the process. We don't know what level of Susano'o Itachi used to block it. However we do know that Sasuke's lvl 3 Susano'o can be busted open by Danzo's futon helped by Baku suction. Danzo's futon is inferior to FRS, and way inferior to Bijuudama, so do the math.



arokh said:


> *Actually, first stage of Susanoo blocked Kirin* and it did not get destroyed. Only Itachi's clothed Susanoo has Yata.



Care to prove it? And yes, it was destroyed, that's why Itachi had to reform it afterwards.


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## Hiei312 (Feb 13, 2013)

but that'd mean Itachi is fast enough to activate his full version and have it move the shield upwards faster than lightning. that'd be insane.

we saw a last panel of Itachi with one eye closed just after sasuke commanded the lightning to strike down. meaning at that moment he had not yet even activated susano'o.


the mountain is not hollow. Sasuke and Itachi were standing on  a small structure at the very top. i don't know if Kishi really want it portrayed that big or if it was a mistake, but look at this thing

shinobi

Sasuke and Itachi were at that thing at the very top that looks minuscle. to put this in context, imagine the kyuubi. the kyuubi would easily fit inside the place where Sauce and Itachi fought. it'd be literally  smaller than an ant by comparison.


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## arokh (Feb 13, 2013)

After Kirin hit, Itachi appeared from the dust with the first stage of Susanoo. "Without this I would never have survived" he said. I don't see how the fuck you could come to the conclusion that he used clothed susanoo with Yata from that. It's more likely that he didn't. Some people need to start controlling their fantasy and just accept what Kishi is telling in his story. Yata mirror was stated to be able to repel ANY attack, until other evidence is shown that's what you should go by.


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## iJutsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Consider the following:
Madara controls Kyuubi; Their chakra are aligned and identical.
Wood Dragon has just drained and weakened the bijuu dama.
Wood Gundam is suppressing the bijuu dama because it is still in it's hand.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> *After Kirin hit, Itachi appeared from the dust with the first stage of Susanoo.* "Without this I would never have survived" he said. I don't see how the fuck you could come to the conclusion that he used clothed susanoo with Yata from that. It's more likely that he didn't. Some people need to start controlling their fantasy and just accept what Kishi is telling in his story. Yata mirror was stated to be able to repel ANY attack, until other evidence is shown that's what you should go by.



After Kirin hit, Itachi was on the floor with no Susano'o around his body. Stop making shit up.


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## jacamo (Feb 13, 2013)

youre both making shit up at this point


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## AvengeRpro (Feb 13, 2013)

What people forget about the kyuubi is since it was sealed inside naruto it only has half its power. When it gets all of it the manga is gonna explode.



arokh said:


> After Kirin hit, Itachi appeared from the dust with the first stage of Susanoo. "Without this I would never have survived" he said. I don't see how the fuck you could come to the conclusion that he used clothed susanoo with Yata from that. It's more likely that he didn't. Some people need to start controlling their fantasy and just accept what Kishi is telling in his story. Yata mirror was stated to be able to repel ANY attack, until other evidence is shown that's what you should go by.



I agree. Right after that there's that page which shows the stages of susanoo (ribs, bones, etc.). In the last one it has its clothes and the weapons, not before.


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Hiei312 said:


> the mountain is not hollow. Sasuke and Itachi were standing on  a small structure at the very top. i don't know if Kishi really want it portrayed that big or if it was a mistake, but look at this thing
> 
> shinobi
> 
> Sasuke and Itachi were at that thing at the very top that looks minuscle. to put this in context, imagine the kyuubi. the kyuubi would easily fit inside the place where Sauce and Itachi fought. it'd be literally  smaller than an ant by comparison.



Right, only the top was hollow, my mistake. Still, saying it's the biggest mountain Kishi has ever drawn is hyperbole.

The Kyubi wouldn't "easily fit" in the place where they fought. In height, for starters.



I recommend you read threads like that one. You're just using a no limits fallacy saying Yata Mirror can defend against whatever. This has been discussed to death already.


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## Punished Pathos (Feb 13, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Susano'o has everything there, except it's lacking: The Bottom Half and Chakra Fixation.
> *
> And what's with people and there understanding of the word "Perfect".
> Something is only truly "perfect" when it can no longer be improved upon.
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



 Super Perfect Cell, disagrees


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## arokh (Feb 13, 2013)

I dare say ALL high tier can deal with bijuudama. It's not an instant kage-killer by any means. A direct hit is of course dangerous, but any top shinobi can defend against it. Even Orochimaru did it pre-timeskip with his ultimate defense. Suigetsu did it with water. Minato did it with hiraishin. Hashirama did it with wood. You must be retarded if you think Itachi's ultimate defense can not block it.

Anyway, believe your own fantasy if you will. I'm sure Kishi will come through as usual and show you how stupid you are with regards to Itachi.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Feb 13, 2013)

It was a stage 3 susnaoo... Like the one itachi and sasuke use... Not a perfect susanoo that has Legs and towers above everything including mokuton jutsu and the kyuubi...

What madara tanked the full power of the kyuubi with was merely the same susanoo sasuke and itachi use at full power...

These are just complete susanoo's... Which can even be used by the basic MS as shown with itachi...



This is perfect susanoo... A giant Tengu Samurai...


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## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> I dare say ALL high tier can deal with bijuudama. It's not an instant kage-killer by any means. A direct hit is of course dangerous, but any top shinobi can defend against it. Even Orochimaru did it pre-timeskip with his ultimate defense. Suigetsu did it with water. Minato did it with hiraishin. Hashirama did it with wood. You must be retarded if you think Itachi's ultimate defense can not block it.
> 
> Anyway, believe your own fantasy if you will. I'm sure Kishi will come through as usual and show you how stupid you are with regards to Itachi.



Orochimaru defended against a partial transformation's Bijuudama. Lol at comparing that to a full Bijuudama. Suigetsu simply let the Bijuudama pass through him instead of hitting him directly, and even that f*cked him up. Itachi is not Minato. Itachi is not Hashirama.

But, since you continue to be stubborn, you've forced me to do this 



Baki's wind sword can't be stopped 



Kabutowari crushes any and all defences, thus it crushes Yata Mirror 

Hyperbole is a great thing, wouldn't you agree?



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> It was a stage 3 susnaoo... Like the one itachi and sasuke use... Not a perfect susanoo that has Legs and towers above everything including mokuton jutsu and the kyuubi...
> 
> What madara tanked the full power of the kyuubi with was merely the same susanoo sasuke and itachi use at full power...
> 
> ...



Another guy that has not even bothered to read the thread. That's perfect Susano'o before its chakra is stabilized, not a regular Susano'o like Itachi and Sasuke use.


----------



## Yuna (Feb 13, 2013)

That's not blocking the *exploding* Bijuudama, that's blocking the ball being used as a concussive force. Get back to me when/if the Bijuudama explodes in Susano'o's face and Susano'o is still around afterwards.


----------



## Jeαnne (Feb 13, 2013)

dat karasu susanoo


----------



## arokh (Feb 13, 2013)

Right, now you're comparing Itachi's magical items to chuunin fodder and seven swordsmen. We know hyperboles are used to hype up certain elements in the manga, it's a way of making stuff awesome. Most of the times what's hyped up gets toned down later on. I'm sure it will be the same with Yata as well (must be what Itachi gave Sasuke), but you seem to be the only person left that didn't realize Itachi is at the absolute highest tier in this manga and his ultimate defense is pretty much guaranteed to tank bijuudama, which is getting less powerful by every chapter. Guess you know this but are just trolling because Itachi stepped on your favourite char


----------



## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> Right, now you're comparing Itachi's magical items to chuunin fodder and seven swordsmen. We know hyperboles are used to hype up certain elements in the manga, it's a way of making stuff awesome. Most of the times what's hyped up gets toned down later on. I'm sure it will be the same with Yata as well (must be what Itachi gave Sasuke), but you seem to be the only person left that didn't realize Itachi is at the absolute highest tier in this manga and his ultimate defense is pretty much guaranteed to tank bijuudama, which is getting less powerful by every chapter. Guess you know this but are just trolling because Itachi stepped on your favourite char



Itachi on the absoulte highest tier?  No, that's Hashirama, Madara, Obito, BM Naruto and Sasuke when he gets a power up. Itachi is not in that league.

Thanks for admitting you're an hypocrite though, when hype affects your favourite character it's fact, when it's not it means nothing, right? :rofl


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

Its just blocking the concussive force so far. The Bijudama hasn't exploded. And its not 'Stage Four Susano'o', its Madara's first form of the Perfect Susano'o when the chakra is unstabilized.


----------



## Algol (Feb 13, 2013)

Let's see what happens next. We just got a freezeframe of the two making contact, don't know the result. (It could block it, it could not, we'll see). It's also being punched at Madara by a wood golem, not shot out from a bijuu like normal. Dunno if that effects anything.

Secondly, it's been clear Kishi is having Naruto mixing his own chakra and doing the bijuudamas and their control _along with_ Kurama. It seems different from Bee and how the other jins/bijuu do it. Let's see how that goes too.  hat regular Kyubbi bijuudama looks nothing like what Naruto did against the 5 bijuu, or the one to stop Juubi revive with Bee.

Last, that's PS, not Sasuke/Itachi's wimpy versions by comparison. But yeah, yata mirror's another thing, sure.


----------



## ReubenBP92 (Feb 13, 2013)

So whats the difference between susanos again? and dont they all make the user invincible while activated anyways?


----------



## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

ReubenBP92 said:


> So whats the difference between susanos again? and dont they all make the user invincible while activated anyways?



The more advanced the level, the better defensive and offensive capabilities it provides.

If Susano'o made the user invincible, Madara wouldn't have had his ass whooped by Hashirama, now, would he?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

ReubenBP92 said:


> So whats the difference between susanos again? and dont they all make the user invincible while activated anyways?


Susano'o isn't an invincible jutsu at all. Its been damaged and destroyed many times during the manga.

And Madara's first stage Perfect Susano'o is so much fucking larger than Itachi's and Sasuke's, you can't even compare them.


----------



## Dade (Feb 13, 2013)

To me, it seems like Kurama tail takes the hit first..idk


----------



## Star★Platinum (Feb 13, 2013)

Flawless Win.


----------



## Stormcloak (Feb 13, 2013)

Madara's susanoo is stronger than others though


----------



## Hexa (Feb 13, 2013)

Well, on the same coin, Hashirama's mokujin can just catch a bijuudama like it's nothing.

And I don't understand calling that Susano'o an "imperfect perfect Susano'o".   Has the ribcage stage become called the "partially formed version of the fullbodied imperfect perfect Susano'o"?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

Hexa said:


> Well, on the same coin, Hashirama's mokujin can just catch a bijuudama like it's nothing.


Catching the concussive force and dealing with the dome explosion are completely different things.


> And I don't understand calling that Susano'o an "imperfect perfect Susano'o".   Has the ribcage stage become called the "partially formed version of the fullbodied imperfect perfect Susano'o"?


Madara himself called that version of Susano'o the perfect one and he just stabilized it when fighting the Gokage.


----------



## Seraphiel (Feb 13, 2013)

Hexa said:


> Well, on the same coin, Hashirama's mokujin can just catch a bijuudama like it's nothing.
> 
> And I don't understand calling that Susano'o an "imperfect perfect Susano'o".   Has the ribcage stage become called the "partially formed version of the fullbodied imperfect perfect Susano'o"?



It's not perfect since it's not stabilized is the argument I assume. Which I'd agree with since something not stabilized isn't perfect no?


----------



## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Seraphiel said:


> It's not perfect since it's not stabilized is the argument I assume. Which I'd agree with since something not stabilized isn't perfect no?



Still, the manga calls it perfect Susano'o.

But this is just arguing semantics. The point is that it's not a regular lvl 4 Susano'o, it's something on a much bigger scale.


----------



## Hexa (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara himself called that version of Susano'o the perfect one and he just stabilized it when fighting the Gokage.


But, like others have already stated in this same thread, he didn't.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

Hexa said:


> But, like others have already stated in this same thread, he didn't.


there

It was called the Perfect Susano'o here.


----------



## Hexa (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> there
> 
> It was called the Perfect Susano'o here.


Yeah, that's not referring to the yet-unperfected version of Susano'o seen there.  Madara says "you will learn that everything is futile, even the power of the five kage... against susano-o’s perfect form!" and the next chapter he teaches them that everything is futile in front of the stabilized mega-Tengu Susano'o.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

Hexa said:


> Yeah, that's not referring to the yet-unperfected version of Susano'o seen there.  Madara says "you will learn that everything is futile, even the power of the five kage... against susano-o?s perfect form!" and the next chapter he teaches them that everything is futile in front of the stabilized mega-Tengu Susano'o.


But everything was futile against the initial Perfect Susano'o form. It broke through the sealing like it was nothing after all.


----------



## T-Bag (Feb 13, 2013)

it was already obvious yata's shield would deflect it

itachi > bijuus. the fact that he was assigned to capture the nine tails is a testament of that


----------



## Hexa (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But everything was futile against the initial Perfect Susano'o form. It broke through the sealing like it was nothing after all.


Madara says the Kage "_will_ learn . . ."  and follows in the next chapter with "I'm not finished yet...". He's either calling the yet-unperfected version of Susano'o "perfect Susano'o" or he's calling the perfected version of Susano'o "perfect Susano'o".  Those are our two options, really.


----------



## Summers (Feb 13, 2013)

The Biju-dama has not made contact yet.


----------



## boohead (Feb 13, 2013)

Now just if he used it to win that fight


----------



## BlinkST (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> there
> 
> It was called the Perfect Susano'o here.


 there

He was referring to the stabilized version; the technique was simply incomplete.


----------



## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Valiere said:


> it was already obvious yata's shield would deflect it
> 
> itachi > bijuus. the fact that he was assigned to capture the nine tails is a testament of that



And I'm sure you're going to prove that, right?


----------



## Blaze Release (Feb 13, 2013)

I do not want to get too much into this, however there is a misconception on the yata mirror. People have come to believe that firstly it blocks attacks and  secondly it gives only protection to elemental attacks, both cases Db entry and manga disagrees.





Next it says it can repel any attack, now im not focusing on hyperbole but rather the 'repel' part. Just like how madara's gumbai repelled naruto's mini tbb surely with the hype given the mirror it should do the same.


What interests me is about the mirror is that its still shrouded in mystery along with the totsuka. 

The first entry was the dictionary.

In the main entry it says



What interests me is the mirror tag the yata mirror has and has been hyped to reflect attacks. We have seen two techniques that also have the mirror tag that neutralises and opponents attack by using the same attack against them.

Yagura's Yagura's mirror technique did something that i believe the yata mirror could possible do, [1, 2]

Another technique that has the mirror tag is mirror attacker []

If you note, both are mirror techniques in the sense that they can replicate the opponents technique use it against them therefore its void. Now its possible that the yata mirror gaining the tag mirror but also every said about it in the manga and DB, its very possible that it could do what they two techniques can do. Obviously im speculating however its possible.

Miror "A surface capable of reflecting"

Or "Something that faithfully reflects or gives a true picture of something else"

Or "Something worthy of imitation"

I believe the yata mirror is more special than we give it credit for


----------



## T-Bag (Feb 13, 2013)

Pirao said:


> And I'm sure you're going to prove that, right?



common sense rly lol. the shield "deflects" or "repels" so why exactly should bijuu dama be a problem for itachi?

not like you havent seen bijuu damas being deflected b4 right?


----------



## arokh (Feb 13, 2013)

Pirao said:


> And I'm sure you're going to prove that, right?



How come you're asking proof when you're the one disagreeing with the databook? Why don't YOU put some proof on the table that yata won't work.


----------



## wibisana (Feb 13, 2013)

there is/will be no perfect Susanoo. 
Kishi will make it bigger and bigger.

Perfect means 10/10 can't be upgraded anymore.no such thing in this manga is un-upgradable


----------



## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Valiere said:


> common sense rly lol. the shield "deflects" or "repels" so why exactly should bijuu dama be a problem for itachi?
> 
> not like you havent seen bijuu damas being deflected b4 right?



By things much greater than Itachi's Susano'o, sure.

Not by Itachi's Susano'o.



arokh said:


> How come you're asking proof when you're the one disagreeing with the databook? Why don't YOU put some proof on the table that yata won't work.



It's what I've been doing all this time, darling. I don't like repeating myself.



Pirao said:


> Orochimaru defended against a partial transformation's Bijuudama. Lol at comparing that to a full Bijuudama. Suigetsu simply let the Bijuudama pass through him instead of hitting him directly, and even that f*cked him up. Itachi is not Minato. Itachi is not Hashirama.
> 
> But, since you continue to be stubborn, you've forced me to do this
> 
> ...


----------



## Talis (Feb 13, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Still, the manga calls it perfect Susano'o.
> 
> But this is just arguing semantics. The point is that it's not a regular lvl 4 Susano'o, it's something on a much bigger scale.


People say that its not in a stabilized form, but imo its way too small compared too the Perfect Susanoo+ that ''unstabilized'' form might also be the way how his stage 4 Susanoo look, makes much more sense.


----------



## Gabe (Feb 13, 2013)

we have not see the result of the contact yet.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 13, 2013)

I think the mirror could block it. Madara's Susano'o straight up blocked it, but Itachi's mirror has special properties that don't rely on brute force. Can't say for sure, but I think it could.


----------



## Ginkurage (Feb 13, 2013)

arokh said:


> "The Yata Mirror was equipped to Itachi's Susanoo, in its left hand and, is considered one of the three sacred treasures. It is said to be endowed with all nature transformations and as such changes its own characteristics depending on those of the attack it receives, making the attack entirely ineffective. *Zetsu claimed* that this, combined with the Sword of Totsuka held in its right hand, essentially made Itachi's Susanoo invincible."
> 
> Suck it.



Just like Kakashi claimed that the Sharingan originated from the Byakugan. Or how Iruka claimed that the third was the "God of Shinobi".

Right?


----------



## MS81 (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> According to Jiraiya
> 
> It was called the Perfect Susano'o here.



chapter 589 they asked if that was perfect susanoo, Madara said no then fixated the susanoo into its perfect form.


----------



## Draffut (Feb 13, 2013)

People still haven't figured out Kyuubi's height varies constantly depending on how Kishi wants to draw it?


----------



## Pirao (Feb 14, 2013)

Talis said:


> People say that its not in a stabilized form, but imo its way too small compared too the Perfect Susanoo+ that ''unstabilized'' form might also be the way how his stage 4 Susanoo look, makes much more sense.



See PS before it's stabilized, its form is identical to that plus it has the size too, Itachi's and Sasuke's Susano'o are a lot smaller than that.


----------



## sasutachi (Feb 14, 2013)

i look @ ps panels again,if the woods that madara and hashirama uses similar then kyuubi's body size is about ps's foots.but kishi always changes sizes ,i think comparision between ps and kyuubi will end like that : real world sizes(i mean ratio between them)


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 14, 2013)

And as far as I've seen, shield of Yata is not involved


----------



## Ubereem (Feb 14, 2013)

unstabilize form PS.


----------



## arokh (Feb 14, 2013)

Blue Bomber said:


> Just like Kakashi claimed that the Sharingan originated from the Byakugan. Or how Iruka claimed that the third was the "God of Shinobi".
> 
> Right?



Except those statements were from part 1 and later retconned. Let me know when part 3 comes up and Kishi decides Yata is shit, hasn't happened yet.


----------



## Lazav (Feb 14, 2013)

Blue Bomber said:


> Just like Kakashi claimed that the Sharingan originated from the Byakugan. Or how Iruka claimed that the third was the "God of Shinobi".
> 
> Right?



Madara has seen it all, and he says Itachi's Susano'o is completely invincible. 

Keep denying.


----------



## Kaim (Feb 14, 2013)

MS81 said:


> chapter 589 they asked if that was perfect susanoo, Madara said no then fixated the susanoo into its perfect form.



This guy came, he saw, then he soloed this thread with ease using Manga Facts.

I see anybody would say anything if it has a chance of discrediting The King, even by making shit up.

Stabalized Susano'o = Perfect Susano'o

That's all.


----------



## AoshiKun (Feb 14, 2013)

OP is right guys, Susano'o also as Hashirama's jutsu stopped Kyuubi's Bijuu Dama.
It's useless to debate if they could defend against a Bijuu Dama of moon's size because till a Bijuu gather that much chakra they could stomp it many many times.

Against Madara and Hashirama level of power Bijuus aren't a big deal.


----------



## Pirao (Feb 14, 2013)

arokh said:


> Except those statements were from part 1 and later retconned. Let me know when part 3 comes up and Kishi decides Yata is shit, hasn't happened yet.



Thankfuly Baki's windsword and kabutowari have not been retconned. So if you believe yata mirror's hype you have to believe their hype too, otherwise that makes you an hypocrite. So which one is it?

And noone is saying Yata Mirror is shit, simply that saying it can reflect any attack is a no limits fallacy. The likes of Itachi were left in the dust by the current top tiers a while ago.



Lazav said:


> Madara has seen it all, *and he says Itachi's Susano'o is completely invincible. *
> 
> Keep denying.



Lol, what? Madara has never commented on Itachi's Susano'o, what the fuck are you on about?


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Feb 14, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Lol, what? Madara has never commented on Itachi's Susano'o, what the fuck are you on about?



Black Zetsu. Same thing.


----------



## Kaim (Feb 14, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Thankfuly Baki's windsword and kabutowari have not been retconned. So if you believe yata mirror's hype you have to believe their hype too, otherwise that makes you an hypocrite. So which one is it?
> 
> And noone is saying Yata Mirror is shit, simply that saying it can reflect any attack is a no limits fallacy. The likes of Itachi were left in the dust by the current top tiers a while ago.
> 
> ...



Pirao, seriously, they asked if that was perfect susano'o, he said no, fixate.  Then it became perfect. But no... This isn't about Madara, is it?

Why try so hard to discredit the King? He'd still spank everyone living and a couple of Edos.


----------



## DeK3iDE (Feb 14, 2013)

lol Madara's Susano'o and Hashirama's Mokuton Dragon were playing catch with Kurama's Bijuu Dama


----------



## UzumakiHashirama (Feb 14, 2013)

Talis said:


> Its not the prefect Susanoo, it doesnt have legs and it looks way too small.


Too small?! It's bigger than the damn Kyuubi, standing behind it on the same picture, boy!

The comments in this thread...


----------



## Pirao (Feb 14, 2013)

•Sharingan Squid• said:


> Black Zetsu. Same thing.



Lol, no. White Zetsu = Hashirama too, I guess, right?



Kaim said:


> Pirao, seriously, they asked if that was perfect susano'o, he said no, fixate.  Then it became perfect. But no... This isn't about Madara, is it?
> 
> Why try so hard to discredit the King? He'd still spank everyone living and a couple of Edos.



They're just arguing semantics. The point is that the Susano'o that is receiving that Bijuudama is Madara's giant Susano'o, not a regular Susano'o like Itachi and Sasuke have.

Why try so hard to wank Itachi? He was surpassed long ago. BM Naruto and KCM Naruto spank Itachi. Hashirama spanks Itachi. Madara spanks Itachi. Obito spanks Itachi. Nagato spanks Itachi. Deal with it.


----------



## arokh (Feb 14, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Thankfuly Baki's windsword and kabutowari have not been retconned. So if you believe yata mirror's hype you have to believe their hype too, otherwise that makes you an hypocrite. So which one is it?



They have no feats and we'll never know. Anyways, these were hyperboles for fodder weapons, which shouldn't be taken as serious as others. Take Amaterasu for instance, it's supposed to be able to burn through anything and so far it's true. Jiraiya was shocked it could burn through the toad's stomach and it even burned fire as shown against Sasuke.

If you're serious about comparing part 1 statements about byakugan and Zetsu statements about Yata then you're really just a sad troll.



> And noone is saying Yata Mirror is shit, simply that saying it can reflect any attack is a no limits fallacy. The likes of Itachi were left in the dust by the current top tiers a while ago.



I'm only saying it can reflect bijuudama. Left in the dust? Hahahaha. Except for Hashirama/Madara there's none he couldn't challenge.



> Lol, what? Madara has never commented on Itachi's Susano'o, what the fuck are you on about?



He's referring to the fact that black Zetsu = Madara's will. Considering he is man made, it's kind of strange that he possesses the kind of knowledge that he does, no? It pretty much means his intel came directly from Madara through memory or he was taught from him. You could also chalk it up to Zetsu being the voice of Kishi, either way his statement should not be disregarded in the same way as that damn byakugan statement from 1994 (yes I know it's not really from 94).

Anyways, this is all blatantly obvious for anybody else other than stupid trolls. I'll leave this discussion at that.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Feb 14, 2013)

Talis said:


> Its not the prefect Susanoo, it doesnt have legs and it looks way too small.


It sure as hell ain't regular Susanoo. It's as big as the *original* Kyuubi's entire body. Regular Susanoo is only as big as the *current *Kyuubi's head.


----------



## Kaim (Feb 14, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Lol, no. White Zetsu = Hashirama too, I guess, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You've actovated my trap card!

Atleast you know who the King is..


----------



## Herekic (Feb 14, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Kyuubi was like what? 10 times bigger than current Kyuubi?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...





You talk as if susanoo has a standard level of power, and isn't dependent on the strength of it's user.


Pretty sure we never saw itachi's suasanoo slice a distant mountain in half just by unsheathing it's sword.


We also saw mokuton catch a bijuudama from full power kyubi and throw it back, so that means yamato could totally do the exact same thing, right?


----------



## Pirao (Feb 14, 2013)

arokh said:


> They have no feats and we'll never know. Anyways, these were hyperboles for fodder weapons, which shouldn't be taken as serious as others. Take Amaterasu for instance, it's supposed to be able to burn through anything and so far it's true. Jiraiya was shocked it could burn through the toad's stomach and it even burned fire as shown against Sasuke.
> 
> If you're serious about comparing part 1 statements about byakugan and Zetsu statements about Yata then you're really just a sad troll.



No feats, indeed. Like Yata Mirror. Amaterasu was supposed to be unavoidable (according to Zetsu). Too bad Raikage disagreed with him.

Lol, I'm not the one who said anything about the Byakugan, buddy. It's just like I said, you're an hypocrite that tries to pass as fact the hype of the characters you like.



> I'm only saying it can reflect bijuudama. Left in the dust? Hahahaha. Except for Hashirama/Madara there's none he couldn't challenge.



And it can reflect Bijuudama because...? It has no feats of deflecting anything on that scale. 

Yes, left in the dust. All the characters I mentioned would lol pawn him, and there are others that can challenge him.



> He's referring to the fact that black Zetsu = Madara's will. Considering he is man made, it's kind of strange that he possesses the kind of knowledge that he does, no? It pretty much means his intel came directly from Madara through memory or he was taught from him. You could also chalk it up to Zetsu being the voice of Kishi, either way his statement should not be disregarded in the same way as that damn byakugan statement from 1994 (yes I know it's not really from 94).



Yes, it can and will be disregarded because it's nothing but hype, with no feats to back it up, and Zetsu has been shown to be wrong before. 



> Anyways, this is all blatantly obvious for anybody else other than stupid trolls. I'll leave this discussion at that.



Yes, let's leave the discussion at that. I already exposed you as hypocrites, which is what I wanted.



Kaim said:


> You've actovated my trap card!
> 
> Atleast you know who the King is..



Considering the amount of Itachi wankers lurking around, it would be kind of difficult not to know. 

Glad to see you have nothing to counter what I've said, too.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Feb 14, 2013)

Y'all know the Yata Mirror can deflect the Moon, Hell fire, and turn the Big Bang into the Big Crunch if Marilyn wanted it to. 

Quit playing.


----------



## DraconianMithril (Feb 14, 2013)

Leptirica said:


> I don't remember the eye patterns or who is wearing what kind of armor, I just don't get why Hashirama would start his story at the end of it.
> 
> 
> But if are sure Madara has EMS, then I guess chances I am wrong are much bigger.
> ...



You don't read alot of books do you...

I'm sorry, but, 100s of thousands of good stories begin with glimpse of the climatic clash until the author suddenly cuts you off and start from the beginning. So they got you interested in how it ends, now you must watch how it began.


----------



## Kaim (Feb 14, 2013)

Pirao said:


> No feats, indeed. Like Yata Mirror. Amaterasu was supposed to be unavoidable (according to Zetsu). Too bad Raikage disagreed with him.
> 
> Lol, I'm not the one who said anything about the Byakugan, buddy. It's just like I said, you're an hypocrite that tries to pass as fact the hype of the characters you like.
> 
> ...



Why should I? When provided the most valid proof, you say they're "just arguing semantics". You're too mad to process logic. All the susano'os look the same, clothed and a distorted tengu like mask covering the face except the eyes.  Then here comes a different giant bigger than big susano'o that no one has seen before. You would think people would call that Perfect Susano'o.

So therefore, nothing anybody can say can prove that was perfect Susano'o, because we've seen Perfect Susano'o. It's the big stabilized mountain busting non distorted Tengu faced figure, not what you want it to be. 

EMS grants its user the ability to stabilize Susano'os chakra and create Perfect Susano'o.


----------



## Pirao (Feb 14, 2013)

Kaim said:


> Why should I? When provided the most valid proof, you say they're "just arguing semantics". You're too mad to process logic. All the susano'os look the same, clothed and a distorted tengu like mask covering the face except the eyes.  Then here comes a different giant bigger than big susano'o that no one has seen before. You would think people would call that Perfect Susano'o.
> 
> So therefore, nothing anybody can say can prove that was perfect Susano'o, because we've seen Perfect Susano'o. It's the big stabilized mountain busting non distorted Tengu faced figure, not what you want it to be.
> 
> EMS grants its user the ability to stabilize Susano'os chakra and create Perfect Susano'o.



Hahahahaha  You don't even get the point of this thread.


----------



## Kaim (Feb 14, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Hahahahaha  You don't even get the point of this thread.



It was for you to get soloed.

By me.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 14, 2013)

@pirao

bro just give it a rest, you are arguing against posters who think Sasuke dodged V2 Ei with no difficulty.


----------



## Addy (Feb 14, 2013)

kyuubi, getting downgraded since sasuke suppressed his chakra


----------



## Pirao (Feb 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> @pirao
> 
> bro just give it a rest, you are arguing against posters who think Sasuke dodged V2 Ei with no difficulty.



Yeah, I guess I'd better. I've had enough fun with them anyways.


----------



## xigloox (Feb 14, 2013)

Butō Rengoob said:


> Are people retards? Do they even read this manga? It's unstabilized PS.



Hahaha. That's exactly what I was going to say. Glad to see my reaction to NF community mirrored in others.


----------



## Karman (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but....

Why anyone would choose to break Susanoo down into stages is beyond me.

Every "stage" of Susanoo is just...well...Susanoo. The only difference is in the volume of chakra and degree of stabilization.

Volume = size and power.
Stabilization = endurance and fortitude.

The only thing that makes Madara's "perfect" is that it manifests at its maximum volume and remains completely stabilized. Therefore, what we saw this chapter is not that. It isn't fully stabilized, nor fully manifested.

There aren't any 'stages' beyond the shallow labels we're putting on it. The only reason an EMS is required to perfect Susanoo, is because it takes extraordinary effort to manifest it to begin with. And EMS mitigates that risk and effort.


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## PikaCheeka (Feb 14, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Not at all, just saying they are the same thing in a smaller scale, their designs make it obvious...



Unstabilized PS looks nothing like the final form.


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## αce (Feb 14, 2013)

It should be obvious that Perfect Susano-o was simply meant to give Madara a bijuu level power. I'm not seeing the controversy here. There is none. It was always stronger than a bijuu dama if people read the damn manga correctly.


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## CyberianGinseng (Feb 14, 2013)

Karman said:


> I'm probably going to get flamed for this but....
> 
> *Why anyone would choose to break Susanoo down into stages is beyond me.*
> 
> ...


And yet your analysis fits no facts. At every level of development Susanoo has been shown to have a greater capacity for protection. 

Raikage broke pieces off of Susanoo's open ribs several times rather easily:
*Spoiler*: __ 






 Mei Terumī was able to melt Susanoo's ribs also, but we haven't seen it against other "stages" so we can't say much about how it would affect them. 

Meanwhile, Raikage was only able to damage fully fleshed Susanoo with Oonoki's lightening of his mass for increased velocity and Aggravated Rock application to his fist to increase the momentum of his punches: Before then with the closed ribs version he barely scratched the surface of Susanoo.These facts are simply incompatible with the viewpoint you described. Clearly, there are varying levels of protection depending on the "stage" of Susanoo's development: ribs, full rib cage, skeleton, flesh, clothing, armor. Your millage may vary depending on how well developed Susanoo is. Certainly, "volume of chakra" expenditure figures in heavily. However, chakra cost isn't what's right in front of our faces so we have no way of measuring it. Describing Susanoo in terms of chakra cost is a highly speculative and practically worthless endeavor. 

*Therefore, it's perfectly legitimate to describe the variability of the protection Susanoo provides in terms of its "stages" of development, given what we've seen.*

Durability and coverage are two of Susanoo's most important characteristics. The only qualities you listed along these lines are endurance and fortitude, as size and power do not fit the definition of durability. Fortitude doesn't really either since it *usually *describes a mental quality. Endurance is the quality I'm focusing on since of the four it's the closest to durability, though still not ideal. (Not sure why you picked these words.)

You link endurance and fortitude to *stabilization*, something only seen in the "final stage" of Susanoo. No other Susanoo has been shown to have stabilization. So how the hell would stabilization even figure into a discussion of anything besides Madara's Perfect Susanoo? 

How do you explain this discrepancy?

If you can't, then clearly, we're much better off sticking with the term, "stages of Susanoo."


----------



## T-Bag (Feb 14, 2013)

Pirao said:


> By things much greater than Itachi's Susano'o, sure.
> 
> Not by Itachi's Susano'o.



naruto did it with his bare hands....

bijuu dama is childs play for itachi "he's completely invincible"


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## Talis (Feb 14, 2013)

Funny how unlogical people think, the Susanoo Madara used wasn't a perfect Susanoo, it was too small.
Think about it why would he use an unstabilized perfect Susanoo?
The ''unstabilized'' form is just the form of the stage 4 full Susanoo, basically Madara opened the perfect Susanoo which had the form of his stage 4 Susanoo and then he completed the transformation after it transforming it into its real form.
And it doesnt even have legs.


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## CyberianGinseng (Feb 14, 2013)

Actually, it wasn't small at all. Madara's smaller Susanoo without legs is no bigger than Itachi's and Sasuke's Susanoo. 

The Susanoo he used there was as big as the original Kyuubi. We can tell this because the Kyuubi is leaning against it. 

We can also tell how big it is because Hashirama is on top of the Mokujin's nose. The Mokujin is is the same size as this Susanoo. Madara is just as small compared to it as Madara inside Perfect Susanoo.

Madara's and Hashirama's size is a clear benchmark indicating Unstable PS.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Feb 14, 2013)

*The fail is strong with this one.*

No i didn't dream this was going there.





Shattering said:


> Itachi's yata mirror would should be able to block bijuu damas like if they were nothing  , canon!


Sure, extremely small Bijuudama like the ones Naruto made in the cave while training.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 14, 2013)

αce said:


> It should be obvious that Perfect Susano-o was simply meant to give Madara a bijuu level power. I'm not seeing the controversy here. There is none. It was always stronger than a bijuu dama if people read the damn manga correctly.


It was specifically called on a Biju's level of power, but always had _inferior_ destructive power to Bijudama. Even now, its not blocking a shot Bijudama, its blocking one being PUSHED at it from the Mokujin no Jutsu. 

Ace, please stop being smug and assuming it survives? This is the final clash of the fight from the way it was built up.


----------



## αce (Feb 14, 2013)

> It was specifically called on a Biju's level of power, but always had _inferior_  destructive power to Bijudama. Even know, its not blocking a shot  Bijudama, its blocking one being PUSHED at it from the Mokujin no Jutsu.



I'm not talking about any statements. I'm just saying in general the fact that he was given a Susano-o bigger than a meteorite is all the proof I need in the world that his summon is on the same level as a Bijuu.

And the fact that a bijuu dama can be pushed is just further evidence I need to assume that Susano-o can just throw it in another direction. Bijuu damas have been redirected multiple times by now.

And no, a normal Bijuu-dama is not penetrating perfect Susano-o. I mean, I'm not gonna argue this any longer. Maybe Naruto's new form Bijuu dama could pull it off but I'm not gonna sit here and assume that some lowly 5 tailed bijuu can throw a Bijuudama at Madara in a perfect Susano-o without it being casually thrown away.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 14, 2013)

αce said:


> I'm not talking about any statements. I'm just saying in general the fact that he was given a Susano-o bigger than a meteorite is all the proof I need in the world that his summon is on the same level as a Bijuu.
> 
> And the fact that a bijuu dama can be pushed is just further evidence I need to assume that Susano-o can just throw it in another direction. Bijuu damas have been redirected multiple times by now.
> 
> And no, a normal Bijuu-dama is not penetrating perfect Susano-o. I mean, I'm not gonna argue this any longer. Maybe Naruto's new form Bijuu dama could pull it off but I'm not gonna sit here and assume that some lowly 5 tailed bijuu can throw a Bijuudama at Madara in a perfect Susano-o without it being casually thrown away.


It's blocking not even the full physical _force of a shot Bijudama._ Hell it's not even the beam or wave form. Its blocking a Bijudama that was caught by the Mokujin no Jutsu being used like a giant rasengan.

Perfect Susano'o doesn't have the fucking FEATS to claim that it can survive a 4 Gigaton Bijudama from the lesser Biju.  Ace, stop being a jerk.


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## αce (Feb 14, 2013)

> It's blocking not even the full physical _force of a shot Bijudama._  Hell it's not even the beam or wave form. Its blocking a Bijudama that  was caught by the Mokujin no Jutsu being used like a giant rasengan.



So if Mokuton, which doesn't have nearly as much defensive feats as Susano-o, can catch a bijuu-dama in mid flight, what is stopping Susano-o from doing the same? I mean, Naruto deflected five with speed alone. You're overrating Bijuu dama's here. 



> Perfect Susano'o doesn't have the fucking FEATS to claim that it can survive a 4 Gigaton Bijudama from the lesser Biju



Neither does Picasso Juubi yet it obviously can. Susano-o's defensive properties are proportional to its height. A normal bijuu dama is not penetrating a perfect Susano-o. And if Naruto can throw 5 bijuu dama's into a mountain range kilometers away from his current location by simply running at them I'm just gonna go ahead and say that Susano-o, which has infinitely more strength than Naruto, can casually do the same.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 15, 2013)

αce said:


> So if Mokuton, which doesn't have nearly as much defensive feats as Susano-o, can catch a bijuu-dama in mid flight, what is stopping Susano-o from doing the same? I mean, Naruto deflected five with speed alone. You're overrating Bijuu dama's here.


Hashirama's showing broken abilities left and right. I'm saying, just wait alright?




> Neither does Picasso Juubi yet it obviously can. Susano-o's defensive properties are proportional to its height. A normal bijuu dama is not penetrating a perfect Susano-o. And if Naruto can throw 5 bijuu dama's into a mountain range kilometers away from his current location by simply running at them I'm just gonna go ahead and say that Susano-o, which has infinitely more strength than Naruto, can casually do the same.


V1 Juubi survived a 2.62 _teraton_ combined Bijudama from Naruto and Bee. And it could tank its own 144 petaton Bijudama plus Bee's going off internally in its body. Comfortably higher than anything anything else tanked in this manga.

Susano'o's defensive abilities should be able to tank its own offensive abilities. Thus Perfect Susano'o, until it gets better feats, has an City-level tanking range of 133 megatons.


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## αce (Feb 15, 2013)

Are you using OBD calculations? Because if you are I'm out of here.


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## shintebukuro (Feb 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama's showing broken abilities left and right. I'm saying, just wait alright?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's Suigetsu's tanking range? How many kajillion megazords?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 15, 2013)

αce said:


> Are you using OBD calculations? Because if you are I'm out of here.


They are concrete evidence based on what is shown in the manga. Its better than just eyeballing everything.

Oh, and BTW, even if you DO eyeball the Bijudama's dwarfed mountains. And wiped them off the map.



shintebukuro said:


> What's Suigetsu's tanking range? How many kajillion megazords?


Nothing. He nearly died _despite_ being a logia. The 'wave' Bijudama that Bee used just passed through his _liquid_ body. 

Weird how you ignore that fact that his body is made of liquid.


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## KingBoo (Feb 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama's showing broken abilities left and right. I'm saying, just wait alright?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lmao where are you getting these numbers? you're worse than a fanfic databook 4 8th edition revision 1.25956 by ultimatedeadpool and turrin. maybe this is a quote from their book i'm assuming



shintebukuro said:


> What's Suigetsu's tanking range? How many kajillion megazords?



damn you, this still has me laughing


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## Jeαnne (Feb 15, 2013)

susanoo can block yet to explode bijuudama, period.

and perfect susanoo, according to madara, can destroy all creation. Ie, it can most likely cut any kind of bijuu.

i would not be surprised if it can cut chakra itself.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 15, 2013)

KingBoo said:


> lmao where are you getting these numbers? you're worse than a fanfic databook 4 8th edition revision 1.25956 by ultimatedeadpool and turrin. maybe this is a quote from their book i'm assuming


OBD Calcs. Better than eyeballing things. You do know we have people actually figuring out the yields of attacks?


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## ueharakk (Feb 15, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> susanoo can block yet to explode bijuudama, period.
> 
> and perfect susanoo, according to madara, can destroy all creation. Ie, it can most likely cut any kind of bijuu.
> 
> i would not be surprised if it can cut chakra itself.



it says it can "destroy all things in nature" which is basically high mountain-level destruction since mountains are the largest things in nature in NV. 

And it would also make sense since in the same sentence, Madara says "the bijuu have a comparable power" and the bijuu's equivalent feat was busting a mountain.


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## αce (Feb 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> OBD Calcs. Better than eyeballing things. You do know we have people actually figuring out the yields of attacks?





> According to this, Kyuubi Chakra Hinata's air palm could probably oneshot Saturn.
> 
> It obviously has to have more impact that 144 petatons to blast away a hand that was unphased by its own attack.
> 
> ...



..............


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## arokh (Feb 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> it says it can "destroy all things in nature" which is basically high mountain-level destruction since mountains are the largest



Noooo way, according to some retards here that doesn't mean anything since the same was said about some fodders sword


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## Jeαnne (Feb 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> it says it can "destroy all things in nature" which is basically high mountain-level destruction since mountains are the largest things in nature in NV.
> 
> And it would also make sense since in the same sentence, Madara says "the bijuu have a comparable power" and the bijuu's equivalent feat was busting a mountain.


yeah it might be one of the translations

one of them said "it can destroy all creation"

i will check if it was the viz translation later


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## Oga Tatsumi (Feb 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> it says it can "destroy all things in nature" which is basically high mountain-level destruction since mountains are the largest things in nature in NV.
> 
> And it would also make sense since in the same sentence, Madara says "the bijuu have a comparable power" and the bijuu's equivalent feat was busting a mountain.





takL said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...






I guess VIZ translation was right about "destroy all creation" - "smash all things in this universe", but I think you could be right about the mountain stuff.


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## Helios (Feb 15, 2013)

That is nothing compared to what Hashirama's Mokujin did, changin the trajectory of the blast and using it as his own weapon.This pretty much required applying a force 2X that of the Kyuubi's attack.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 16, 2013)

It's a moment frozen in time. It doesn't prove anything.



SaiST said:


> You've gotta realize that _"Perfect Susanoo"_ is a fan-term for Madara's completely materialized, and stabilized Susanoo.
> 
> It was originally used in the flavor text at the end of Chapter 588, depicting the same stage Madara's Susanoo is seen at the end of this week's chapter, but with a lower torso 'n such.



And then there's all the other fan names like "stage 4". I've lost track. Susano'o = Susano'o in my mind.



Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> There are five displayed stages of Susano'o.
> Skeleton
> Flesh
> Clothed
> ...



That's probably the best description of the various forms of Susano'o. Everything else are minor details that don't matter as much.



Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> Logically, you start a story at the beginning.
> 
> But keep in mind, he's not starting at the founding of the village, but at the easiest place to explain the answer to his question. What is a village and what are shinobi. Apparently Hashirama feels the beginning of the answer to that question is best found at the Valley of the End. Now be quiet whippersnapper and let the old man talk, he might learn ya somethin'.



Agreed. The beginning isn't always the chronological beginning. It can also be a thematic beginning, which is probably what Hashirama starts with VotE.



arokh said:


> I dare say ALL high tier can deal with bijuudama. It's not an instant kage-killer by any means. A direct hit is of course dangerous, but any top shinobi can defend against it. Even Orochimaru did it pre-timeskip with his ultimate defense. Suigetsu did it with water. Minato did it with hiraishin. Hashirama did it with wood. You must be retarded if you think Itachi's ultimate defense can not block it.
> 
> Anyway, believe your own fantasy if you will. I'm sure Kishi will come through as usual and show you how stupid you are with regards to Itachi.



Suigetsu is high tier? 

An alternative explanation is that we've only seen bijudama's that can be dealt with by ninja with peculiar abilities in the correct circumstances. Naruto, Kurama, Killer B and the Eight-Tails against the Six Jinchuriki Paths and Tobito showed that bijudama can be in any size they want. Just like Naruto can create Rasengan at any size he wants. Saying you can deal with one size doesn't tell anything about your ability to deal with bigger sizes.

Yata mirror discussion.  Itachi is gone and so is the Yata mirror. GTFO


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## Senjuclan (Feb 16, 2013)

arokh said:


> They have no feats and we'll never know. Anyways, these were hyperboles for fodder weapons, which shouldn't be taken as serious as others. Take Amaterasu for instance, it's supposed to be able to burn through anything and so far it's true. Jiraiya was shocked it could burn through the toad's stomach and it even burned fire as shown against Sasuke.



1. Hypocrisy at best. They have no feats? Those weapons do have feats. What makes them fodder? They have hype just like yata but since they were not given to your favorite character, you ignore it
2. Amaterasu burns through everything? Be sure to tell that to the samurai



arokh said:


> If you're serious about comparing part 1 statements about byakugan and Zetsu statements about Yata then you're really just a sad troll.



Did you just call him a troll? That makes you a troll since the kabutowari is a Part II weapon. Why should Zetsu hype be taken more seriously than Suigetsu



arokh said:


> He's referring to the fact that black Zetsu = Madara's will. Considering he is man made, it's kind of strange that he possesses the kind of knowledge that he does, no? It pretty much means his intel came directly from Madara through memory or he was taught from him. You could also chalk it up to Zetsu being the voice of Kishi, either way his statement should not be disregarded in the same way as that damn byakugan statement from 1994 (yes I know it's not really from 94).
> 
> Anyways, this is all blatantly obvious for anybody else other than stupid trolls. I'll leave this discussion at that.



Susano'o has Madara's memory?  while you are at it do make sure to explain to me how the hell he did not know about susano'o


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## arokh (Feb 16, 2013)

That's white zetsu fool. There's a reason black zetsu keeps calling him idiot. Yeah go ahead make fun of amaterasu not burning through the samurai makes you look like a troll too. Got anything real to bring to the discussion?


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## BlinkST (Feb 16, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Susano'o has Madara's memory?  while you are at it do make sure to explain to me how the hell he did not know about susano'o


As pointed out already, that was the white Zetsu. However, some of the Zetsu, particularly the black variant, clearly have some degree of Madara's memories. The Black Zetsu for example, knew just about everything concerning Nagato, despite being a last-minute creation of Madara. 

susano'o
susano'o

Black Zetsu as Madara said is basically a clone with his intel.


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## αce (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't know why Madara blocking a Bijuu dama is so controversial. Like, _what the fuck?_ If it's about Itachi then I shouldn't have to point out that Madara is not the same as Itachi. And as for the Naruto fans, he's going to win eventually so the fuck?

Someone explain to me why this thread just went 9 pages. I'm not understanding.


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## PopoTime (Feb 16, 2013)

Wood Dragon + Mokujin absorb bijuu chakra.

BijuuDama is made of bijuu chakra.

Mokuton grabs Bijuudama, absorbs some chakra, then uses it like a rasengan against Madara's susan'oo

Hence, Madara isnt being hit with a Kyuubi-dama, but a weakened, partially absorbed bijuudama

God some people really make mountains out of molehills.


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## αce (Feb 16, 2013)

The complete idea of Madara tanking a bijuu dama seems like dark magic here though.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 16, 2013)

αce said:


> The complete idea of Madara tanking a bijuu dama seems like dark magic here though.



Or many people are simply waiting on the panel that shows the bijudama exploding. Like those things are wont to do.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 16, 2013)

arokh said:


> That's white zetsu fool. There's a reason black zetsu keeps calling him idiot. Yeah go ahead make fun of amaterasu not burning through the samurai makes you look like a troll too. Got anything real to bring to the discussion?



I love how you call me a fool and provide no proof. The bubble is attributed to Black Zetsu not White Zetsu. And while you are at it, read this panel

himself

Zetsu did not know using susano'o carries a lot of risk. He has Madara's memories alright 

Did Amaterasu burn the samurai armor? If it did, show me the panel cuz in this manga it did not. That makes YOU a troll for lying

I have brought something real. Proof that your augment is wrong. Kabutowari is in Part II. Your argument is simply inane when you ignore facts to pretend that it was stated in Part I 



BlinkST said:


> As pointed out already, that was the white Zetsu. However, some of the Zetsu, particularly the black variant, clearly have some degree of Madara's memories. The Black Zetsu for example, knew just about everything concerning Nagato, despite being a last-minute creation of Madara.
> 
> himself
> himself
> ...



How do you know it was WZ? The bubble is attributed to BZ. WZ and BZ speak differently in Japanese. A little hard to confuse them.

I see a panel attributed to WZ there not BZ.


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## BlinkST (Feb 16, 2013)

Doesn't matter either way. It's clear they know Madara's information.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 17, 2013)

BlinkST said:


> Doesn't matter either way. It's clear they know Madara's information.



Duh they were there when Madara was telling shit to Tobi. You guys acting like they have Madara's memories when they don't


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## arokh (Feb 17, 2013)

It's white zetsu talking even if bubbles are on left side. You seem to have missed the part where it's all explained in Madara's cave.

@Ace

You can forget about Naruto "winning" in the traditional sense. This is all heading to him and Sasuke kissing and make up. He won't win by force and certainly not a bijuudama to his face lol.


----------



## BlinkST (Feb 17, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Duh they were there when Madara was telling shit to Tobi.


Most of the information Madara gave Obito was inside the genjutsu.  



Senjuclan said:


> You guys acting like they have Madara's memories when they don't


That's because the black Zetsu was shown to be a last minute creation, after which he cut his connection with the statue. There's no indication that he "told" it anything aside from the memory theory.

implied

There's no reason that Black Zetsu knows exactly who Nagato is and his background, but not Obito, if Madara had simply told them that information.


----------



## arokh (Feb 17, 2013)

Why bother explaining the obvious to someone who seem to believe amaterasu can't hurt samurai because they managed to get the armor off before it burned through. Trolls.


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Feb 17, 2013)

arokh said:


> Actually, first stage of Susanoo blocked Kirin and it did not get destroyed. Only Itachi's clothed Susanoo has Yata.


Negative.

That statement is completely disproven in Susano'o's first appearance.

 Juugo and Orochimaru

This clearly shows Itachi using the Yata Mirror at Stage 2, Flesh covered Susano'o. And to disprove any further statement it is described in the chapter and the databook explicitly as being the Yata Mirror.

And the Susano'o was completely destroyed by the Kirin as Itachi was seen completely Susano'o less and then said that he raised it to survive the attack. Logically to survive an attack of that magnitude Itachi would bring up the maximum defense he possibly could. Yata Mirror.


Hiei312 said:


> To the dude who mentioned Bijuu Dama destroying mountains as a feat....Kirin destroyed the biggest Mountain kishi has ever drawn in this series and Itachi's Susano'o tanked it. (without Yata mirror unless you believe Itachi can form his full susano'o and point the shield upwards faster than a bolt of lightning...which IMO would be a much more impressive feat than tanking kirin without the shield, actually...lol)


That was a hill.

Kishi has drawn mountain chains. And destroyed portions of those mountain chains with Chibaku Tensei and Biju Dama.

I find your hyperbole excessive.


arokh said:


> I dare say ALL high tier can deal with bijuudama. It's not an instant kage-killer by any means. A direct hit is of course dangerous, but any top shinobi can defend against it. Even Orochimaru did it pre-timeskip with his ultimate defense. Suigetsu did it with water. Minato did it with hiraishin. Hashirama did it with wood. You must be retarded if you think Itachi's ultimate defense can not block it.
> 
> Anyway, believe your own fantasy if you will. I'm sure Kishi will come through as usual and show you how stupid you are with regards to Itachi.


The technique is an anyone killer.

All of the high tier are high tier precisely because they can develop methods to not get killed by the most powerful attacks. But you have a low threshold for effective defense.

Orochimaru defended against a Four Tailed incomplete Kyubi Biju Dama, and it required a Triple Application of his Absolute Defense Summon Rashomon gates. They were destroyed and he was knocked on his ass and took significant damage, and admitted that he Orochimaru would've been killed by the attack. And this was post time skip, grass country arc. That's not tanking that's damage reduction.

Suigetsu was knocked comatose by his defending of the Biju Dama, that's not tanking, that's a self sacrifice. And he used a tsunami's worth of water to help him.

Minato defended with a Time Space Barrier that redirected it somewhere else. That isn't tanking or blocking that's banishing.

Hashirama's wood has already been established to have special properties that perfectly deal with Biju chakra outright.

None of that directly correlates to to whether or not Itachi's specific Susano'o can block a Biju Dama. In each circumstance there was a special factor or mitigating circumstance. That allowed these people to deal with the Biju Dama. There's no evidence that grows from these that supports a claim that Itachi's defense can do the same. They all defended differently and with widely varying degrees of success.


Valiere said:


> it was already obvious yata's shield would deflect it
> 
> itachi > bijuus. the fact that he was assigned to capture the nine tails is a testament of that


No it was a testament that he was the member of Akatsuki with a Mangekyo Sharingan, that could control and suppress the Kyubi. Nothing more nothing less.


Blaze Release said:


> I do not want to get too much into this, however there is a misconception on the yata mirror. People have come to believe that firstly it blocks attacks and  secondly it gives only protection to elemental attacks, both cases Db entry and manga disagrees.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent Essay.

Though I find the correlation between Yagura's technique and the Yata no Kagami a little less direct or clear.

If I had to guess how Yagura's technique worked I'd say it sampled some of the opponent's chakra and then made a clone of them, which is extremely advanced in any event, and in fact more advanced than the Yata Mirror.

The Yata Mirror's defense seems to work purely on nullification.


Herekic said:


> You talk as if susanoo has a standard level of power, and isn't dependent on the strength of it's user.
> 
> 
> Pretty sure we never saw itachi's suasanoo slice a distant mountain in half just by unsheathing it's sword.
> ...


A good point.


αce said:


> So if Mokuton, which doesn't have nearly as much defensive feats as Susano-o, can catch a bijuu-dama in mid flight, what is stopping Susano-o from doing the same? I mean, Naruto deflected five with speed alone. You're overrating Bijuu dama's here.


You're speaking purely in terms of raw power and ignoring the elemental rock paper scissors here. Mokuton has an *explicit stated* ability to manipulate biju chakra. And Hashirama has unique universal experience with the biju controlling all nine of them completely. He is specifically enabled to stop a biju dama. Combined with his unparalleled chakra him being able to catch a biju dama is unexpected. 

And has no bearing on the strength of his Mokuton versus the strength of a Susano'o as far their armor rating.

I'm not saying he'd be able to accomplish the same feat with Deidara's CO for instance.



> Neither does Picasso Juubi yet it obviously can. Susano-o's defensive properties are proportional to its height. A normal bijuu dama is not penetrating a perfect Susano-o. And if Naruto can throw 5 bijuu dama's into a mountain range kilometers away from his current location by simply running at them I'm just gonna go ahead and say that Susano-o, which has infinitely more strength than Naruto, can casually do the same.


Susano'o has infinitely more strength than Naruto? You're joking right?

Ignoring that last bit of....I don't even...

Naruto redirecting five Biju Dama with a shunshin doesn't correlate to him actually blocking the blast the same as with Minato's Space Time Barrier defense.

But it's not an unfair assumption to think that Perfect Susano'o can successfully defend against a normal yield Biju Dama. But I don't think it has a prayer blocking a Maximum Yield Biju Dama.


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama's showing broken abilities left and right. I'm saying, just wait alright?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What the Fuck?

Where are you getting these yields? Is that yield in tons of TNT?

The smallest number you quoted is many times greater perhaps even by orders of magnitude than the entire world's nuclear arsenal. That much firepower would've exterminated all life on the planet many times over.


Jeαnne said:


> susanoo can block yet to explode bijuudama, period.
> 
> and perfect susanoo, according to madara, can destroy all creation. Ie, it can most likely cut any kind of bijuu.
> 
> i would not be surprised if it can cut chakra itself.


Wouldn't that then automatically mean it could cut through the Yata no Kagami?


----------



## αce (Feb 17, 2013)

> Susano'o has infinitely more strength than Naruto? You're joking right?



Uh. Perfect Susano-o? No I'm not joking. I'll agree with the rest of your post though. Also, Kirin busted more than hill. Calling it a mountain is excessive but calling it a simple hill is also undermining just how big that land formation was.

I'll post the picture after I find them.


----------



## BlinkST (Feb 17, 2013)

Amat?rasu’s Son said:


> Negative.
> 
> That statement is completely disproven in Susano'o's first appearance.
> 
> ...


 The Susanoo simply possessed the weapon because it was conjured by the highest state. We've never seen him conjure those weapons with that type of Susanoo.  



> That was a hill.


 That was a mountain. Look at Itachi and Sasuke's size in relation to the concrete walls:
Bijudama plus Bee's going off internally in its body. Comfortably higher than anything anything else tanked in this manga.

Look where Sasuke is standing:
Bijudama plus Bee's going off internally in its body. Comfortably higher than anything anything else tanked in this manga.

Now use Sasuke as a scale in relation to the concrete wall:
Bijudama plus Bee's going off internally in its body. Comfortably higher than anything anything else tanked in this manga.

The Uchiha hidout was situated on the summit of the mountain, but the whole thing wasn't some hollow hill or building. It was a mountain; there were several in the area.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Feb 17, 2013)

αce said:


> I don't know why Madara blocking a Bijuu dama is so controversial. Like, _what the fuck?_ If it's about Itachi then I shouldn't have to point out that Madara is not the same as Itachi. And as for the Naruto fans, he's going to win eventually so the fuck?
> 
> Someone explain to me why this thread just went 9 pages. I'm not understanding.



It's total damage control. You should have seen the predictions thread when this page came out as a spoiler. There were easily another 4 pages there on it. It was the only thing anyone was even talking about.

It all comes down to...certain fans in shock because they seemed to think that bijuudama would one-shot Sasuke or something. Even though bijuudama has been gradually downgraded and is very obviously not going to be Naruto's greatest move. Now people are realizing that lo and behold! if/when Sasuke and Naruto fight, it isn't going to be a curbstomp where Sasuke is crying for mercy in the end, and they are freaking out.


----------



## insane111 (Feb 17, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Now people are realizing that lo and behold! if/when Sasuke and Naruto fight, it isn't going to be a curbstomp where Sasuke is crying for mercy in the end, and they are freaking out.



Considering Naruto is set in stone to win that fight, I don't know why Naruto fans even care.

 Not to mention Kishi has made it blatantly obvious throughout all of part 2 that they are meant to be roughly the same level.


----------



## sinjin long (Feb 17, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> It's total damage control. You should have seen the predictions thread when this page came out as a spoiler. There were easily another 4 pages there on it. It was the only thing anyone was even talking about.
> 
> It all comes down to...certain fans in shock because they seemed to think that bijuudama would one-shot Sasuke or something. Even though bijuudama has been gradually downgraded and is very obviously not going to be Naruto's greatest move. Now people are realizing that lo and behold! if/when Sasuke and Naruto fight, it isn't going to be a curbstomp where Sasuke is crying for mercy in the end, and they are freaking out.



true. but damage control goes both ways,its the same for the other side pre-emptively giving susanno feats,it has yet to display.

NEWSFLASH evryone. madara's pre chakra-stabilized susanno has not blocked SHIT YET.

and all the wank is merely sasuke,itachi fans trying to equate a possible feat of madaras' susanno to theirs.

which doesn't mean shit. even if madara's susanno can do such a thing does not mean at all that either sasuke's nor itachis' can duplicate it.

as neither itachi or sasuke usage of susanno has ever even come close to being as powerful or fully developed as madara's perfect form.

for all we know they cant even get it to that level.

i'm not saying it will or won't tank it or sasuke will never evolve his to equal or surpass madaras' or trying to hate on anyone. BUT COME THE F ON.

we all know that every fandom tries to allude that their fave can do something just b/c some other character has shown a similar feat.

sasuke with itachi,naruto with minato,naruto with jiraiya,sasuke with kakshi,itachi with nagato. etc.etc.

ALL MEANINGLESS

tl;dr= it hasn't blocked anything yet. wait till next chapter b4 just assuming anything,for both sides.


----------



## BlinkST (Feb 17, 2013)

sinjin long said:


> NEWSFLASH evryone. madara's pre chakra-stabilized susanno has not blocked SHIT YET.


 


That's blocking, unless my eyes betray me. Now, you can argue on whether or not the guard was *successful*, but that's a job for Superman. For now, he blocked a Bijudama.

Personally, I have doubts that Madara would conjure two swords to block the Bijudama *if* they wouldn't suffice.


----------



## sinjin long (Feb 17, 2013)

BlinkST said:


> That's blocking, unless my eyes betray me. Now, you can argue on whether or not the guard was *successful*, but that's a job for Superman. For now, he blocked a Bijudama.
> 
> Personally, I have doubts that Madara would conjure two swords to block the Bijudama *if* they wouldn't suffice.



really? to me all that is, is the teaser cliff hanger of the initial contact.

i do not call that a block, because we do not see the result. is there a detonation? did the swords redirect away from the critical areas? will susanno survive the detonation? will there even be a detonation?

if people want to claim that,whatever. but cmon. and abouth the swords sufficing,cmon if someone shoot at me with a .50 rifle and i have a bronze shield,doesn't mean i'm not gonna try and use it just cause it isn't going to suffice.


----------



## Kaim (Feb 17, 2013)

sinjin long said:


> really? to me all that is, is the teaser cliff hanger of the initial contact.
> 
> i do not call that a block, because we do not see the result. is there a detonation? did the swords redirect away from the critical areas? will susanno survive the detonation? will there even be a detonation?
> 
> if people want to claim that,whatever. but cmon. and abouth the swords sufficing,cmon if someone shoot at me with a .50 rifle and i have a bronze shield,doesn't mean i'm not gonna try and use it just cause it isn't going to suffice.



Madara used 4th stage susanoo solely to counter the bijuudama, since he was just base Madara before that.  He definitely figured his susanoo could block it and it did.


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 17, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> It's total damage control. You should have seen the predictions thread when this page came out as a spoiler. There were easily another 4 pages there on it. It was the only thing anyone was even talking about.
> 
> It all comes down to...certain fans in shock because they seemed to think that bijuudama would one-shot Sasuke or something. *Even though bijuudama has been gradually downgraded and is very obviously not going to be Naruto's greatest move.* Now people are realizing that lo and behold! if/when Sasuke and Naruto fight, it isn't going to be a curbstomp where Sasuke is crying for mercy in the end, and they are freaking out.



I've gotten used to Naruto's moves getting nerfed bit by bit. That doesn't stop me from getting annoyed when a damn mask or a damn warfan suddenly stop Naruto's attacks. Kishimoto isn't exactly subtle about trolling the Naruto fans and those fans react in a predictable way. It's much easier to expect Naruto to loose and be pleasantly surprised when he wins. 



insane111 said:


> Considering Naruto is set in stone to win that fight, I don't know why Naruto fans even care.
> 
> Not to mention Kishi has made it blatantly obvious throughout all of part 2 that they are meant to be roughly the same level.



Kishimoto made it obvious in his interviews. The manga itself tells a different story, because the majority of the time Sasuke was a lot stronger And even now Sasuke has the advantage if you actually look at their respective abilities and don't get excited by all the pretty explosions. Sasuke's main advantages are fire and genjutsu.



BlinkST said:


> That's blocking, unless my eyes betray me. Now, you can argue on whether or not the guard was *successful*, but that's a job for Superman. For now, he blocked a Bijudama.
> 
> Personally, I have doubts that Madara would conjure two swords to block the Bijudama *if* they wouldn't suffice.



But what is he actually blocking? The mokuton? Or the bijudama? I think it's the mokuton arm/hand.

I'm more interested in seeing the explosion to be honest, because it matters more than a panel that is designed to evoke a fandom war.


----------



## sinjin long (Feb 17, 2013)

Kaim said:


> Madara used 4th stage susanoo solely to counter the bijuudama, since he was just base Madara before that.  He definitely figured his susanoo could block it and it might.



fixed for you


----------



## Kaim (Feb 17, 2013)

sinjin long said:


> fixed for you



and it did since he lived after that fight?


/thread


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Feb 17, 2013)

αce said:


> Uh. Perfect Susano-o? No I'm not joking. I'll agree with the rest of your post though. Also, Kirin busted more than hill. Calling it a mountain is excessive but calling it a simple hill is also undermining just how big that land formation was.
> 
> I'll post the picture after I find them.



Hmm. I'll grant that.

But I certainly saw no evidence that it was hollowed out either.

If you're comparing the technique Susano'o to base Naruto then sure. But a full power Biju Mode Naruto? I still dispute infinitely more powerful. They are at the very least in the same order of magnitude. And seeing as how Naruto is the Uzumaki with the Biju inside of him, I'd say he's still stronger.


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Feb 17, 2013)

sinjin long said:


> really? to me all that is, is the teaser cliff hanger of the initial contact.
> 
> i do not call that a block, because we do not see the result. is there a detonation? did the swords redirect away from the critical areas? will susanno survive the detonation? will there even be a detonation?
> 
> if people want to claim that,whatever. but cmon. and abouth the swords sufficing,cmon if someone shoot at me with a .50 rifle and i have a bronze shield,doesn't mean i'm not gonna try and use it just cause it isn't going to suffice.



What result?
Are you actually expecting that next chapter the first thing we will see is Susano'o getting destroyed and Madara lying defeated on the ground?  
How on earth is that supposed to make sense? It's not any kind of a cliff hanger for the end result of the battle. It's just a symbolic clash, you _must_ have heard of those by now.
Hell, we even see Madara and Hashirama both grinning, this isn't the ultimate battle between those two. Not yet.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 18, 2013)

sinjin long said:


> true. but damage control goes both ways,its the same for the other side pre-emptively giving susanno feats,it has yet to display.




I'm curious to see, how you expect this scene to play out?

I'm pretty sure Susano is going to remain post collision with Biju dama.



> NEWSFLASH evryone. madara's pre chakra-stabilized susanno has not blocked SHIT YET.


But it's most certainly going to. 



> and all the wank is merely sasuke,itachi fans trying to equate a possible feat of madaras' susanno to theirs.


Yes, why not?

I don't recall anything arbitrating Susano varies defensively from user to user.

And if I recall correctly, I certain Garra made predictions regarding Madara's Susano using Sasuke's.




> which doesn't mean shit. even if madara's susanno can do such a thing does not mean at all that either sasuke's nor itachis' can duplicate it.


But isn't Susano.....Susano?





> as neither itachi or sasuke usage of susanno has ever even come close to being as powerful or fully developed as madara's perfect form.


In terms of raw power? Perhaps.

However Sasuke's and Itachi's Susano stand out utilizing HAX oppose to raw power.

Itachi's Totsuka seals anything it pierces.

Sasuke's Susano freely manipulates Enton flames.

And both possess shields, mate.

They also have the same track record as perfect Susano defensively.



> for all we know they cant even get it to that level.


In terms of sheer size? Perhaps, but you're significantly downplaying the special properties in which their "Smaller" Susano possess.



> i'm not saying it will or won't tank it or sasuke will never evolve his to equal or surpass madaras' or trying to hate on anyone. BUT COME THE F ON.


If Sasuke's becomes the size of that of Madara he'll definitely hold the advantage offensively.

Again Sasuke's variation freely wields Enton flames.

Combine with his natural manipulation of Enton, his definitely possesses the most potential offensively. 



> we all know that every fandom tries to allude that their fave can do something just b/c some other character has shown a similar feat.


But we do the same for Naruto.

Naruto is predicted to be capable of avoiding Amaterasu solely because A could.

Or blitzing Sasuke solely because A could.

And oh let's not forget SM Naruto avoiding Susano's arrows using sensing solely because Kabuto did.

We transmigrate feats all the time, let's not pretend such an argument doesn't go both ways. 



> sasuke with itachi,naruto with minato,naruto with jiraiya,sasuke with kakshi,itachi with nagato. etc.etc.
> 
> ALL MEANINGLESS
> 
> tl;dr= it hasn't blocked anything yet. wait till next chapter b4 just assuming anything,for both sides.


But it's most certainly going too.

Let's be serious.

A casual Bijudama isn't going to bust Susano.(The form in which Madara is utilizing has never been breached)

Considering Madara essentially whipped out Susano solely to shield against such an attack, I trust his better judgement more so than anyone.


----------



## Yuna (Feb 18, 2013)

I like how everyone on both sides (as far as I can tell) ignored my post about the fact that that panel shows Madara's Susano'o blocking Bijuudama being used as a battering ram instead of a projectile.

Madara's Bijuudama was not blocking an exploding Bijuudama. Hashirama's Wood Dragon was basically using it as a blunt instrument. It's the equivalent of beating someone up using a stick a dynamite and throwing it at them as it's exploding, except Bijuudamas are probably corrosive even when not exploding.

Rememember, Madara's Susano'o cannot block everything. It cannot, for example, block Dust Release, because Madara always using Preta Path to absorb Dust Release.


----------



## Kaim (Feb 18, 2013)

Yuna said:


> I like how everyone on both sides (as far as I can tell) ignored my post about the fact that that panel shows Madara's Susano'o blocking Bijuudama being used as a battering ram instead of a projectile.
> 
> Madara's Bijuudama was not blocking an exploding Bijuudama. Hashirama's Wood Dragon was basically using it as a blunt instrument. It's the equivalent of beating someone up using a stick a dynamite and throwing it at them as it's exploding, except Bijuudamas are probably corrosive even when not exploding.
> 
> Rememember, Madara's Susano'o cannot block everything. It cannot, for example, block Dust Release, because Madara always using Preta Path to absorb Dust Release.



So it's cool to say that wood golem > susanoo, basically...since it tanked Kyuubi firing it off at him?  In this case, before the "if I shove a bullet in your forehead versus a gun firing it off" argument pops off, it's different...here's how.

Rasengan, which was built to mimic the bijuudama, is thrusted, not thrown.  To my understanding, they have the same mechanics in how the damage done works.  So fuck off with the "It didn't have the same force behind it from being thrown by a bijuu".


----------



## Xin (Feb 18, 2013)

Even Susano has it's limits.


----------



## Yuna (Feb 18, 2013)

Kaim said:


> So it's cool to say that wood golem > susanoo, basically...since it tanked Kyuubi firing it off at him?  In this case, before the "if I shove a bullet in your forehead versus a gun firing it off" argument pops off, it's different...here's how.


Madara's Susano'o is blocking a Bijuudama being thrust at it at point-blank range. This is the equivalent of battering someone with a bullet versus firing it at them at point-blank range.

Hashirama's Wood Golem did not tank an *exploding* Bijuudama. All it did was catch a Bijuudama mid-flight and use it as a battering ram. The most explosive part of a Bijuudama is its explosion.



Kaim said:


> Rasengan, which was built to mimic the bijuudama, is thrusted, not thrown.  To my understanding, they have the same mechanics in how the damage done works.


The thrust-Rasengan was noted as *incomplete*. Naruto completed it by combining it with an element and throwing it.

Also, the Rasengan was not designed to mimic Bijuudamas perfectly. And did you just fucking argue that thrusting a Rasengan at someone is the same as firing off an exploding Bijuudama at someone?



Kaim said:


> So fuck off with the "It didn't have the same force behind it from being thrown by a bijuu".


You clearly failed 1st grade reading comprehension if you think I wrote "Thrown" (or any variations of the word "Throw", or any synonyms to it). I said that the Bijuudama wasn't *exploding*. The point of a Bijuudama is not to use it to beat someone or throw it at someone, it is to have it *explode* on them.


----------



## Addy (Feb 18, 2013)

i am just waiting for sasuke's current susano'o to block bijuu dama.......... then, all hell will break


----------



## limbo Kakashi (Feb 18, 2013)

Yuna said:


> Rememember, Madara's Susano'o cannot block everything. It cannot, for example, block Dust Release, because Madara always using Preta Path to absorb Dust Release.



Depends what stage of Susanoo you're talking about. Madara uses pretha path because susanoo rib cage wouldn't be enough obviously. Same goes for the mokuton clones cloaked in stage 2 Susanoo.


----------



## Yuna (Feb 18, 2013)

AumaanAnubis said:


> Depends what stage of Susanoo you're talking about. Madara uses pretha path because susanoo rib cage wouldn't be enough obviously. Same goes for the mokuton clones cloaked in stage 2 Susanoo.


Madara can go from mode to mode pretty instantly, yet not once has he tried to absorb Jinton using Susano'o. And if Madara's Susano'o can block everything and anything, how the *fuck* did Hashirama ever beat his Perfect Susano'o? By simply wearing Madara out so that he ran out of Chakra and had to release Susano'o?


----------



## AoshiKun (Feb 18, 2013)

People like useless discussions.
According to dictionary:


> *Block*
> — vb
> 31.	to shape or form (something) into a block
> 32.	to fit with or mount on a block
> ...



According to the dictionary Susano'o does block Bijuu Dama so the OP is right as I fucking said earlier therefore if you don't agree with that you sure have problems.

Notice the OP isn't talking about if Susano'o or Hashirama's Dragon can survive the Bijuu Dama explosion so there is no point to argue that.


----------



## limbo Kakashi (Feb 18, 2013)

Yuna said:


> Madara can go from mode to mode pretty instantly, yet not once has he tried to absorb Jinton using Susano'o.



I never said Madara uses Susanoo and pretha path to nullify jinton, i'm saying the ribcage would get pwned by jinton, so Madara uses pretha path alone instead. 



> And if Madara's Susano'o can block everything and anything, how the *fuck* did Hashirama ever beat his Perfect Susano'o? By simply wearing Madara out so that he ran out of Chakra and had to release Susano'o?



Uh, Pretha path can absorb everything and anything ninjutsu, didn't Naruto still defeat pein in the end?

I also never said his susanoo can block everything.


----------



## Ch1pp (Feb 18, 2013)

Yuna said:


> Madara's Susano'o is blocking a Bijuudama being thrust at it at point-blank range. *This is the equivalent of battering* someone with a bullet versus firing it at them at point-blank range.
> 
> 
> Hashirama's Wood Golem did not tank an exploding Bijuudama. All it did was catch a Bijuudama mid-flight *and use it as a battering ram*. The most explosive part of a Bijuudama is its explosion.



Dude, you're contradicting yourself. *Battering* involves repeatedly hitting someone.

Anything strong and fast enough to catch *that* would naturally pack more punch with it than when its a projectile.


----------



## Kaim (Feb 18, 2013)

Yuna said:


> Madara's Susano'o is blocking a Bijuudama being thrust at it at point-blank range. This is the equivalent of battering someone with a bullet versus firing it at them at point-blank range.
> 
> Hashirama's Wood Golem did not tank an *exploding* Bijuudama. All it did was catch a Bijuudama mid-flight and use it as a battering ram. The most explosive part of a Bijuudama is its explosion.
> 
> ...



It's still ripping shit up before exploding, so they both are still tanking the bijuudama.  Just because it didn't explode doesn't mean you didn't tank it because it's still damaging even pre explosion.


----------



## Yuna (Feb 18, 2013)

AumaanAnubis said:


> I never said Madara uses Susanoo and pretha path to nullify jinton, i'm saying the ribcage would get pwned by jinton, so Madara uses pretha path alone instead.


I never said you said that. What I said was that he can switch between Susano'o modes pretty instantly, yet he's never even tried to switch to Perfect Susano'o to protect against Jinton. It seems he can't protect against Jinton using Perfect Susano'o.



AumaanAnubis said:


> Uh, Pretha path can absorb everything and anything ninjutsu, didn't Naruto still defeat pein in the end?


What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Naruto defeated Fat Pain through Taijutsu using Kawazu Kumite to throw an invisible and basically unblockable punch. Taijutsu was blatantly stated to be the *one thing* Fat Pein is weak against.

Susano'o provides all-around protection. It protects against *all* forms of Jutsu besides Genjutsu, provided they're not too strong, presumably. Susano'o, obviously, is not infallible. It cannot protect against all forms of attacks, no matter the strength.

Otherwise, no Uchiha who's awakened Susano'o would ever lose a battle. Jinton is implied to be one thing Susano'o cannot protect against. It's logical to assume there are other things Susano'o cannot protect against.



AumaanAnubis said:


> I also never said his susanoo can block everything.


I never said you did. But your argument as to why Madara didn't use Susano'o to block Jinton instead of Jinton simply being too strong for Susano'o is weak.



DarkShift said:


> Dude, you're contradicting yourself. *Battering* involves repeatedly hitting someone.


How is that contradicting anything? Exactly how did misusing the word "battering" in any way contradict anything I said? Also, fine, let me change my wording then: Bashing.



DarkShift said:


> Anything strong and fast enough to catch *that* would naturally pack more punch with it than when its a projectile.


Except the projectile version that explodes *fucking explodes and levels mountains*.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Feb 18, 2013)

DarkShift said:


> Dude, you're contradicting yourself. *Battering* involves repeatedly hitting someone.
> 
> *Anything strong and fast enough to catch that would naturally pack more punch with it than when its a projectile.*


Wow.

Then I guess all Major League Baseball catchers can kill you by catching the baseball and braining you *once* with it, huh?


----------



## Ganta (Feb 18, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Wow.
> 
> Then I guess all Major League Baseball catchers can kill you by catching the baseball and braining you *once* with it, huh?



Oh my goodness, talk about spin.

Like _*density*_ is what he's denoting, not size  

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-300-2/naruto/chapter-295.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-300-5/naruto/chapter-295.html


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Feb 18, 2013)

*Afraid not...*



Ganta said:


> Oh my goodness, talk about spin.
> 
> Like _*density*_ is what he's denoting, not size
> 
> ...


Except you don't know what you're talking about. He said very clearly "pack more punch." That denotes something close to *momentum*, not merely density or size. 

He's claiming if your velocity and "strength" (force?) can catch a bijuudama then *automatically* your momentum should exceed a bijuudama's momentum. However, Hashirama didn't catch the bijuudama by matching it's momentum; *he caught it like a catcher would catch a baseball, not like a patriot missile would catch a scud missile.* No evidence it was moving as fast as the bijuudama that was fired from a good distance directly at Hashirama, who sprouted a mokuton hand right out from under him and moved it a much shorter distance directly in front of his body/target to intercept. 

This same wood has been shown to suppress and absorb Kurama chakra so there's no need to speculate that it stopped the bijuudama with excessive velocity/force as opposed to its other magical properties. In fact, since Naruto destroyed Madara's fast moving massive mokuton with a rasengan barrage there must be some difference between this particular jutsu and regular mokuton, *other than momentum. *


----------



## Talis (Feb 18, 2013)

JuubiSage said:


> There's really no denying that it's the "Perfect Susano", Madara just didn't have time to stabilize it's chakra yet.
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see it's identical to the "Perfect Susano" in chapter 589, it's even making the same exact pose.


I don't see the reason why Madara would use Perfect Susanoo in its unstable form, too me the ''unstable'' form is just the same form as Sasuke new staf EMS Susanoo mode.
Basically Madara opened the giantic Susanoo in its previous complete form and then he completed the transformation and turned it into the Samurai Susanoo.


----------



## BlinkST (Feb 18, 2013)

Talis said:


> I don't see the reason why Madara would use Perfect Susanoo in its unstable form, too me the ''unstable'' form is just the same form as Sasuke new staf EMS Susanoo mode.


It's not. It's a notch above that form. Not only in sheer size, but design. 





I should also note that it's not the "Susanoo" itself that's different. It's the armor it wears. The armor that Itachi and Sasuke used is wrapped like a scarf. The armor Madara used is more like a cape going down it's back, while the rest of it's body is exposed.


----------



## Ganta (Feb 18, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Except you don't know what you're talking about. He said very clearly "pack more punch." That denotes something close to *momentum*, not merely density or size.



Not close to momentum




Momentum ties in definition to the measure of a moving *independent* body.

_Bijuudama_, no longer independent when shodai ensnared it.


----------



## Ch1pp (Feb 18, 2013)

Ganta said:


> Not close to momentum
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gotta learn how to shut people up like these. The man went all sciency with velocity, momentum and shit. 

+rep


Why did you delete the first post though, its more detailed than this


----------



## Ganta (Feb 18, 2013)

DarkShift said:


> Why did you delete the first post though, its more detailed than this



The dictionary i linked to has a history of cookie stuffing, that's why i deleted, safer than editing before someone clicks


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## CyberianGinseng (Feb 18, 2013)

Ganta said:


> Not close to momentum
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. "Packs a punch" means " a forceful blow" according to your own source. The only difference between force and momentum is the amount of time the force is applied. So a forceful blow is *very close* to momentum.

Independent *or not, *a meteor "packs a punch" because it has momentum just like a *right cross* (which is what the hell we're discussing) "packs a punch" because it has momentum. 

Density/size, *as you originally claimed,* certainly has nothing to do with it.

Grab a grip.





DarkShift said:


> Gotta learn how to shut people up like these. The man went all sciency with velocity, momentum and shit.
> 
> +rep
> 
> ...


*Too bad he failed miserably.* Pick some better role models.

Anyone using the word "density" like he did in an argument is the one trying to introduce "sciency" into the equation.


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## Querix (Feb 18, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Now you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. "Packs a punch" means " a forceful blow" according to your own source. The only difference between force and momentum is the amount of time the force is applied. So a forceful blow is *very close* to momentum.
> 
> Independent *or not, *a meteor "packs a punch" because it has momentum just like a *right cross* (which is what the hell we're discussing) "packs a punch" because it has momentum.
> 
> Density/size, *as you originally claimed,* certainly has nothing to do with it.



Dude, momentum is specifically reserved for independent bodies in motion,
one does not say ''momentum of a blow''. 

The wood/biju-gan has force , not momentum. You've gotten so over technical that you're starting to jabber


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## CyberianGinseng (Feb 18, 2013)

Querix said:


> Dude, momentum is specifically reserved for independent bodies in motion,
> one does not say ''momentum of a blow''.
> 
> The wood/biju-gan has force , not momentum. You've gotten so over technical that you're starting to jabber


So when you punch somebody in the face your fist has no momentum?

Good to know.

Edit:


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## Querix (Feb 18, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> So when you punch somebody in the face your fist has no momentum?
> 
> Good to know.


As Ganta already pointed out:

Momentum is mass in motion.

That's the difference in bijuu dama as a fired projectile and bijudama as a component of hashirama's wood.


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## CyberianGinseng (Feb 18, 2013)

Querix said:


> for fuck sake, are you deliberately slow?
> 
> As Ganta already pointed out:
> 
> ...


Not as slow as you seem to be.

If a rock is thrown at your head, it's just the momentum to worry about and everything else can be ignored.

If a MMA fighter throws a punch, the momentum of his fist will cause the lion's share of the damage to someone's face. Is there more to it? Of course, but the momentum is the most important.

Hashirama's Wood Golem grabbed an airborn bijuudama and threw a punch at Susanoo's face. 

That's the same as if someone grabbed a rock you threw at them and smashed your head in like Jeffrey Dahmer with a right cross.

You and your cohorts are trying to claim that momentum only figured into the rock/ bijuudama being thrown at Susanoo's/your head because it was independent and doesn't come into play during punches because apparently they're not independent bodies. 

The fist with the rock/bijuudama in it also had momentum that does real damage to whatever it transfers that momentum to, such as your face/Susanoo.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Feb 18, 2013)

When the dust clears, Susano'o will likely be gone - accompanied by Madara Uchiha *flat on his ASS*.....

However, If Sandaime Raikage was able to go fisticuffs with the Hachibi (presumably taking on *his*  bijuudama) then I can certainly see Perfect Susano'o standing up to one of the Demon Fox's blasts.

But *Ooooon the other hand*, The Kyuubi likely packs more a punch behind his attacks, so that should be taken in consideration.....

Damn, I'm all fucked up one this one


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Feb 22, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yes, why not?
> 
> I don't recall anything arbitrating Susano varies defensively from user to user.
> 
> And if I recall correctly, I certain Garra made predictions regarding Madara's Susano using Sasuke's.


All technique's effectiveness varies from user to user. Even in Mangekyo Sharingan techniques. Just look at the difference between Sasuke and Itachi's Amaterasus.



> But isn't Susano.....Susano?


Susano'o is Susano'o, but no two Susano'o we have seen have operated the same. Their attributes, properties, and when you throw in Madara size are all different.


> In terms of raw power? Perhaps.
> 
> However Sasuke's and Itachi's Susano stand out utilizing HAX oppose to raw power.
> 
> ...


That's difficult to quantify, it's not as if they've all been subjected to the same offensive measures.


> But we do the same for Naruto.
> 
> Naruto is predicted to be capable of avoiding Amaterasu solely because A could.
> 
> ...


That's a false equivalency.

Naruto is being compared on a one to one basis.

A is able to dodge Amaterasu because he has greater speed than the technique.

Naruto's speed is greater than A's.

Conclusion. Naruto can also evade Amaterasu.

Kabuto has Sage Mode sensing that allows him to dodge Susano'o Arrows.

Naruto has Sage Mode sensing also.

Conclusion. Naruto is also capable of dodging Susano'o arrows.

That doesn't work when we say such things about Susano'o, because they all have different properties. If the argument was Madara's Susano'o can protect him from Kirin I would agree, as Itachi was able to defend against Kirin with Susano'o. I the general consensus is that Madara's Susano'o is superior. If Madara's Susano'o can't defend against a Biju Dama, then I have no expectation that Itachi's can.


> But it's most certainly going too.
> 
> Let's be serious.
> 
> ...



Well trusting his judgment turned out to be wise, but not in the way you expected.

But the argument doesn't hold.

Forcing the Biju Dama to breach the Susano'o rather than simply taking the hit naked is always a better option. Even if the bullet is rated as armor piercing it's still better to wear the vest then to go without, because it's going to mitigate some damage.


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## egressmadara (Feb 22, 2013)

Susanoo tanks.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 22, 2013)

Don't know if it will be deleted, but here goes:

POWER = MASS * VELOCITY * ACCELERATION = FORCE * VELOCITY = MOMENTUM * ACCELERATION​
You can already see how everything is connected. But force and momentum is basically what Newton's second law is all about.

FORCE = MASS * ACCELERATION = RATE OF CHANGE IN MOMENTUM​
and:

IMPULSE = FORCE * DURATION = CHANGE IN MOMENTUM​
and:

MOMENTUM = MASS * VELOCITY​
I also see the word "independent" being used in the above posts, and the only guess I can make is that this is some sort of failed reference to the *law of conservation of momentum*, yet conservation of momentum is about *closed system*.



So the mokuton hand with the bijudama in it;
 has at the very least momentum before it hits those susanoo swords;
 has in all likelihood power and thus also force before it hits those susanoo swords;
 and does certainly have force the very moment it hits those susanoo swords and thus impulse for the duration they stay in contact.

Hopefully that clear everything up.


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