# Hit(dbs) vs Flash



## Drake3513 (Jan 25, 2017)

1. hit starts outside his dimension.
2.hit starts inside his dimension.
who wins?


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## Imagine (Jan 25, 2017)

Flash strands him in the past?


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Don't know how Flash would be able to do anything to him in the scenario he starts inside of the dimension. He shouldn't have any way of reaching him with any of his hax. However Hit may be able to tag Flash with one of his shockwave attacks as Flash has no way of sensing them or seeing them coming as they're pretty much invisible and intangible (plus they can come out at completely unpredictable trajectories due to how Hit sends them through a rift and has them come out a completely different rift). 

In the scenario he's outside of it to start with he gets his speed stolen and is turned into a statue.


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## Imagine (Jan 25, 2017)

What's this dimension ability Hit has? Dimension hopping and what not is nothing new to The Flash. Preeeeeeeeetty sure Flash is faster than Hit as well.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 25, 2017)

Pretty sure Flash gets a new statue for his museum while Hit looks in awe at the man he wishes he could be


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## God Movement (Jan 25, 2017)

OP is a dupe without question.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## BlaLig (Jan 25, 2017)

Well at least its no Black Racer (Pre-Crisis) vs Hit...


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Don't know how Flash would be able to do anything to him in the scenario he starts inside of the dimension



by running out of the dimension.





xenos5 said:


> However Hit may be able to tag Flash with one of his shockwave attacks as Flash has no way of sensing them or seeing them coming as they're pretty much invisible and intangible (plus they can come out at completely unpredictable trajectories due to how Hit sends them through a rift and has them come out a completely different rift).




Flash can see invisible shit. can touch intangible shit. he can even drag someone who is from another dimension viewing his dimension on to his spot if he wanted to.

Seriously there's nothing new that hit has in his arsenal that flash hadn't dealt with before.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> by running out of the dimension.



How would Flash even know that Hit is using a pocket dimension?



shade0180 said:


> Flash can see invisible shit. can touch intangible shit. he can even drag someone who is from another dimension viewing his dimension on to his spot if he wanted to.
> 
> Seriously there's nothing new that hit has in his arsenal that flash hadn't dealt with before.



Scans of this?


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## Imagine (Jan 25, 2017)

Tbf you sounded fairly confident that Hit's abilities would be more than enough to trump Flash.


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Scans of this?



I can't really provide you a scan, right now.


*Spoiler*: __ 



My laptop died on me this month, Pretty sure I mentioned that in another thread, I'm limited to a mobile device.




But there's a lot of respect thread for flash on google some of them would have it mentioned with a scan attach, you can look for them if you want.



xenos5 said:


> How would Flash even know that Hit is using a pocket dimension?



It doesn't really matter of him knowing or not Hit is the one creating/using the dimension, it is more to do of it being within his capability to go out of a dimension whenever he wants. Through methods that involve either running out of it literally, going back to the past, going toward the future, jumping to an alternate timeline or just using the speed force to fuck over the dimension.

there's also nothing stopping flash from speed stealing all the kinetic energy within that dimension as long as it is not any larger than the planet earth.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> I can't really provide you a scan, right now.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Can you provide details for the dimension hopping feat at least? Hit's pocket dimension is closed off to everyone but himself and Goku had to crack and destroy the space-time that makes it up from the outside with his full force aura to be able to have his kamehameha reach him inside of it. Has Flash broken into a dimension like that?



shade0180 said:


> It doesn't really matter of him knowing or not Hit is the one creating/using the dimension, it is more to do of it being within his capability to go out of a dimension whenever he wants through either running out of it, going back to the past, going toward the future, jumping to an alternate timeline or *just using the speed force to fuck over the dimension.*



What does the bold even mean? And how would running out of a dimension or going back in time or into the future put him in Hit's pocket dimension?


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Imagine said:


> Tbf you sounded fairly confident that Hit's abilities would be more than enough to trump Flash.



I was just going off of what I knew of Flash (And shit like him being able to see invisible and intangible shit and dimension hop wasn't listed in his profile).


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

I don't have the time to look through this entire respect thread but @shade0180 or @Huey Freeman if you can find scans of the shit you're talking about here that'd be much appreciated.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

The flash can vibrate into other dimensions for example one his abilities is BFR to the speed force which is a dimension. One of his Rogues  Mirror Master has his own personal dimension and the other his own personal timeline, Zoom.


Hit isn't doing anything Flash hasn't encountered before.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> The flash can vibrate into other dimensions for example one his abilities is BFR to the speed force which is a dimension. One of his Rogues  Mirror Master has his own personal dimension and the other his own personal timeline, Zoom.
> 
> 
> Hit isn't doing anything Flash hasn't encountered before.



Can you provide scans? Isn't it normal to not accept claims before recieving proof in the OBD  ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> My laptop died on me this month, Pretty sure I mentioned that in another thread, I'm limited to a mobile device.



 Welcome to my world.

Reactions: Like 1


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Isn't it normal to not accept claims before recieving proof in the OBD



the thing is this shit isn't just a normal claim, this shit has been proven several hundreds of times in the OBD even before the purge happened literally we had this year after year, You are from 2014 pretty sure you have lurked this forum years before joining, You should have encountered this shit multiple times. well if you lurked the forum properly.


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Welcome to my world.



Sad shit is I am currently looking for a new job. 

 I have no clue when I can get a new laptop.


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> The flash can vibrate into other dimensions for example one his abilities is BFR to the speed force which is a dimension. One of his Rogues  Mirror Master has his own personal dimension and the other his own personal timeline, Zoom.
> 
> 
> Hit isn't doing anything Flash hasn't encountered before.





xenos5 said:


> Can you provide scans? Isn't it normal to not accept claims before recieving proof in the OBD  ?



Here's the enters another dimension feat;
It's photbucket so bare with me 


Can provide scans for bfr too I guess.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> the thing is this shit isn't just a normal claim, this shit has been proven several hundreds of times in the OBD even before the purge happened literally we had this year after year, You are from 2014 pretty sure you have lurked this forum years before joining, You should have encountered this shit multiple times. well if you lurked the forum properly.



You mean lurked every single Flash vs thread? That's a fuckton of lurking to do for a character I'm not all that interested in.

I just always see it as the opposition's job to research and provide evidence for the character they're debating for.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Here's the enters another dimension feat;
> It's photbucket so bare with me
> 
> 
> Can provide scans for bfr too I guess.



Thanks. Though that dimension hop seems a little situational. Adjusting himself to the vibrational frequency of another character to go to the same dimension they're at wouldn't really work for Hit's pocket dimension as Hit isn't at a different vibrational frequency when he's in it.

And sure if you could provide those scans too,that'd be great.


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Thanks. Though that dimension hop seems a little situational. Adjusting himself to the vibrational frequency of another character to go to the same dimension they're at wouldn't really work for Hit's pocket dimension as Hit isn't at a different vibrational frequency when he's in it.
> 
> And sure if you could provide those scans too,that'd be great.


No luck on finding scans of him entering another dimension barring the speed force of course, though he has fought mirror master in his own dimension so idk.

As for the other claim of hitting an intangible being, he fough the cobalt blue entity


Brf; other than the ol' sbp feat, there's only him taking someone out of the speed force(as far as I looked anyway)


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Thanks. Though that dimension hop seems a little situational. Adjusting himself to the vibrational frequency of another character to go to the same dimension they're at wouldn't really work for Hit's pocket dimension as Hit isn't at a different vibrational frequency when he's in it.
> 
> And sure if you could provide those scans too,that'd be great.


 Going to move the goal post . We provide the scan and you try cherry pick it to your benefit? 

He isn't limited to just one dimensional frequency so try not downplay here

Reactions: Like 1


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Going to move the goal post . We provide the scan and you try cherry pick it to your benefit?
> 
> He isn't limited to just one dimensional frequency so try not downplay here



He didn't vibrate to match the frequency of the dimension tho. The scan says he vibrated to match Kid Flash's vibrational frequency.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

Forces Deadman out of the spiritual plane via vibration

Then there the next one where he was racing Supes and he was aware of the fifth dimension during the race as in that's how fast they were going


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> He didn't vibrate to match the frequency of the dimension tho. The scan says he vibrated to match Kid Flash's vibrational frequency.


Did you read what you wrote? He is matching frequencies you just choosing to ignore that fact and act as if there only one set of frequency he can match


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

Scans wouldn't really help here considering from what I understand here, Xenos also have no idea who the character he is fighting nor the ability the characters involve have.

 The best shit for him is to read up on flash and comics, if he really want to know this shit. (No one can really force him to do that though) because as of now it would end up with him just nitpicking the information that is provided, because of the lack of information we can provide with simple scans.

Scans are helpful for those who already have a general knowledge of the characters, same shit with manga a single page of a scan won't really explain shit without the general context of it. and if they don't really try to read more on the info it would be no different from glancing over the OBD wiki and misinterpreting whatever shit is written there.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Blαck said:


> No luck on finding scans of him entering another dimension barring the speed force of course, though he has fought mirror master in his own dimension so idk.
> 
> As for the other claim of hitting an intangible being, he fough the cobalt blue entity
> 
> ...



The claim wasn't about flash being able to hit an intangible being it's that I don't think Flash would be able to see or have the senses to see coming an invisible/intangible shockwave attack (and that shockwave attack would have universe level+ DC considering it can damage SSB Goku). 

So I'd need to see a feat of him being able to sense or see attacks of that nature.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Did you read what you wrote? He is matching frequencies you just choosing to ignore that fact and act as if there only one set of frequency he can match



I'm saying Hit isn't going at a different frequency in his pocket dimension. The pocket dimension is extra space-time added onto the already existing space-time of the universe. It wouldn't be at a different frequency.


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'm saying Hit isn't going at a different frequency in his pocket dimension



Point  is he doesn't need to have Hit's frequency, he could just access any other random frequency and he is out of that dimension which would send him to any other random world/universe/dimension. The only reason he would need Hit's frequency is if he is coming to the same dimension as Hit,  which he doesn't need. because once he is out of there, he can literally pull out and drag Hit to the same dimension he came out of.

How did you think the crisis uncovered, flash jump through a random multiverse where earth 2 exist, at that time he still need the cosmic treadmill, later on the treadmill became obsolete that flash could literally do it on his own.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cain1234 (Jan 25, 2017)

Why, Flash absolute stomps with mass infinity punch.


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> flash absolute stomps with mass infinity punch.



er no.. that's kind of bullshit  IMP hasn't been shown to be that strong.


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## Cain1234 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> er no.. that's kind of bullshit  IMP hasn't been shown to be that strong.



Do you even realize that you said, an infinite mass punch is not that powerful.

But Flash can hit Hit with a few billion of those is a span of seconds.


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

character we are talking about here are basically in the universal range flash is getting raped if this turned into a brawl... what he has here is his speed advantage and the speed force hax he has.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Do you even realize that you said, an infinite mass punch is not that powerful.
> 
> But Flash can hit Hit with a few billion of those is a span of seconds.


Billions of star to solar system level punches isn't going to cut it with Hit who's comfortably above universe level.

Flash's hax and speed is what's going to help him here rather than trying to slug it out with Hit.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Point  is he doesn't need to have Hit's frequency, he could just access any other random frequency and he is out of that dimension which would send him to any other random world/universe/dimension. The only reason he would need Hit's frequency is if he is coming to the same dimension as Hit,  which he doesn't need. because once he is out of there, he can literally pull out and drag Hit to the same dimension he came out of.



The scan Black presented seems be a different kind of dimension hop than the one you are describing. Can you present evidence for the one you're describing? And regardless without knowledge prior to the fight why would Flash know to do this? I'd think for a while at least he'd try to fight Hit normally. And during that period Hit would have the chance to blindside Flash with an attack he wouldn't be able to see coming even though he'd be able to easily react to it or dodge it if he could see it coming. 



shade0180 said:


> How did you think the crisis uncovered, flash jump through a random multiverse where earth 2 exist, at that time he still need the cosmic treadmill, later on the treadmill became obsolete that flash could literally do it on his own.



This does make me think... what version of Flash is being used for this fight anyway? The OP didn't specify.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Scans wouldn't really help here considering from what I understand here, Xenos also have no idea who the character he is fighting nor the ability the characters involve have.
> 
> The best shit for him is to read up on flash and comics, if he really want to know this shit. (No one can really force him to do that though) because as of now it would end up with him just nitpicking the information that is provided, because of the lack of information we can provide with simple scans.
> 
> Scans are helpful for those who already have a general knowledge of the characters, same shit with manga a single page of a scan won't really explain shit without the general context of it. and if they don't really try to read more on the info it would be no different from glancing over the OBD wiki and misinterpreting whatever shit is written there.



I understand making sure you have proper research for the character you're debating for but reading years worth of comics for a character you're debating against? Why can't the context be provided by the opposition? If someone asks me for more context about a feat I'm presenting for a certain character I wouldn't just tell them to look it up themselves. Since I'm the one arguing for that character I'd find whatever video or scan I need to show present it and give whatever explanation is necessary for further context.


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## Cain1234 (Jan 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Billions of star to solar system level punches isn't going to cut it with Hit who's comfortably above universe level.
> 
> Flash's hax and speed is what's going to help him here rather than trying to slug it out with Hit.



Mass infinity is not solar level. It is comfortable at least equal to or beyond Universe level.

It is akin to getting hit with the energy equal to a big bang/big crunch or  bigrip
Level energy, at that level it becomes a PlotHax. Well enough to break dimensions.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Mass infinity is not solar level. It is comfortable at least equal to or beyond Universe level.
> 
> It is akin to getting hit with the energy equal to a big bang/big crunch or  bigrip
> Level energy, at that level it becomes a PlotHax. Well enough to break dimensions.


The Flash's IMP has been compared to hitting with the force of a dwarf star no less than 2 times by Wally himself. That's nowhere close to universe level, dude.


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Mass infinity is not solar level. It is comfortable at least equal to or beyond Universe level.
> 
> It is akin to getting hit with the energy equal to a big bang/big crunch or  bigrip
> Level energy, at that level it becomes a PlotHax. Well enough to break dimensions.


Sadly, we don't really run with this usage of imp, it's been long since capped at like solar system~


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

Flash won't win via IMP but a vibrating hand to the skull is good enough


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The scan Black presented seems be a different kind of dimension hop than the one you are describing. Can you present evidence for the one you're describing? And regardless without knowledge prior to the fight why would Flash know to do this? I'd think for a while at least he'd try to fight Hit normally. And during that period Hit would have the chance to blindside Flash with an attack he wouldn't be able to see coming even though he'd be able to easily react to it or dodge it if he could see it coming.
> 
> 
> 
> This does make me think... what version of Flash is being used for this fight anyway? The OP didn't specify.


Wally is a master at vibrating and every dimension had a vibrational frequency, Hit's dimension in not special enough that we would consider Flash unable to vibrate through it. Hit also doesnt have time to go into his dimension in the first place considering Wally blitzes him


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I understand making sure you have proper research for the character you're debating for but reading years worth of comics for a character you're debating against? Why can't the context be provided by the opposition? If someone asks me for more context about a feat I'm presenting for a certain character I wouldn't just tell them to look it up themselves. Since I'm the one arguing for that character I'd find whatever video or scan I need to show present it and give whatever explanation is necessary for further context.



Because most context would made the thread be off topic.

let start with something simple like If I present to you The flash touching deadman, dragging deadman to the dimension he exist in.

would you understand the significance of it from a mere scan? answer is no.

then I need to present why dead man is a big thing for flash's ability. -> off topic

basically if you don't even have a knowledge of a database of characters in the same franchise then scans that would supplement feats would be pointless towards you. even if we added more if you have no clue of what you are getting presented with it would be pointless and it would spiral to a shit that is basically going to be no different from a respect thread so why would I bother to show you a scan you can't get a context off? that's why I said that you'd be better of looking for google for the respect thread and start reading on your own.

 secondary point copy pasting on a tablet is bullshit.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hit also doesnt have time to go into his dimension




dude 2nd scenario.....



xenos5 said:


> This does make me think... what version of Flash is being used for this fight anyway? The OP didn't specify.



 I usually go with composite if not stated or the most powerful version that exist.


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## Supersentaiguy (Jan 25, 2017)

So flash is unbeatable and can solo everyone on JLA?


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

Supersentaiguy said:


> So flash is unbeatable and can solo everyone on JLA?



 there's a lot of character in JLA that can out hax the flash.

Like Zatanna and Fate for example, there's more on that list..

Beating Hit due to superiority of his hax ability doesn't suddenly mean Flash can solo the entire JLA.


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## Iwandesu (Jan 25, 2017)

Stop pretending flash scans are some normal shit like cancerdome ones
I only know his abilities of hearsay for starters

Reactions: Like 1


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## Iwandesu (Jan 25, 2017)

Flash still is blitzing and outhaxing the shit out hit,tho


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Wally is a master at vibrating and every dimension had a vibrational frequency, Hit's dimension in not special enough that we would consider Flash unable to vibrate through it.



I feel it would take a good amount of time for Flash to figure out that Hit's even using a pocket dimension as the abilities he uses with it don't make it immediately apparent. And if Flash is repeatedly trying to punch and blitz the projection of Hit he'll be in one spot for a time and if he's unable to see an invisible shockwave attack coming it could catch him completely off guard even though he would be able to react to it if he could see it.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hit also doesnt have time to go into his dimension in the first place considering Wally blitzes him



Oh I always knew Flash stomped the first scenario. I've been arguing the second scenario where Hit starts the fight in it.


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## Drake3513 (Jan 25, 2017)

damn I kinda knew that the first scenario is a stomp in flash's favour but damn, didn't think so is the second scenario.


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## Drake3513 (Jan 25, 2017)

I thought hit had a chance in the second scenario.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Drake3513 said:


> I thought hit had a chance in the second scenario.



I still think he does but if I hear a persuasive argument enough otherwise I'll concede.


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## Drake3513 (Jan 25, 2017)

hit should take the second scenarip since flash won't be able to figure out hit is in a different dimension.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Drake3513 said:


> hit should take the second scenario since flash won't be able to figure out hit is in a different dimension.



That's what my thoughts on it are. Though Flash may be smart enough to figure it out eventually. The amount of time it would take would at least give Hit an opportunity to hit Flash with a surprise invisible shockwave/s IMO (and from multiple angles at once considering he can send them through different rifts and have other rifts pop up surrounding Flash for the attacks to come out of).


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> feel it would take a good amount of time for Flash to figure out that Hit's even using a pocket dimension as the abilities he uses with it don't make it immediately apparent.



Unless flash has the ability to see the future.




*Spoiler*: __ 



He has.


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> That's what my thoughts on it are. Though Flash may be smart enough to figure it out eventually. The amount of time it would take would at least give Hit an opportunity to hit Flash with a surprise invisible shockwave/s IMO (and from multiple angles at once considering he can send them through different rifts and have other rifts pop up surrounding Flash for the attacks to come out of).


Well Barry/Wally is a pretty brilliant scientist so it won't take him all that long. Plus he could just let hit's strikes/shockwaves go through him until he figures out how to get him.


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## Drake3513 (Jan 25, 2017)

wtf I thought flash could run real fast and steal speed and thats it.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Unless flash has the ability to see the future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How far into the future? Is it a passive ability or one he has to activate? Can he spam it or continually use it indefinitely? When Hit goes outside of his dimension and he's physically in the universe there's not much of a visual difference from when he's in the pocket dimension and using a projection. So Flash seeing the future wouldn't help him figure out Hit's using a pocket dimension, really. 

It may help him avoid dying to an intangible attack a few times if it has limited use. But once he's strained the ability he won't be able to predict them anymore and considering they wouldn't be visible to him I'd think they'd be capable of hitting him. If it lets him see far into the future or he can use it indefinitely I concede.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Well Barry/Wally is a pretty brilliant scientist so it won't take him all that long. Plus he could just let hit's strikes/shockwaves go through him until he figures out how to get him.



If Flash can't see Hit's invisible shockwaves coming he wouldn't know to go intangible (and it's arguable they'd still hit him even if he went intangible since they can pass through solid matter). And if he gets hit by even one of them, he's dead.


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

Drake3513 said:


> wtf I thought flash could run real fast and steal speed and thats it.


The speed force...he just does almost whatever shit he wants now.


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## Drake3513 (Jan 25, 2017)

Blαck said:


> The speed force...he just does almost whatever shit he wants now.



the real character with NO LIMITS.


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

Drake3513 said:


> wtf I thought flash could run real fast and steal speed and thats it.



Er no that's not all he has..

basically the explanation most of the time is he is so fast he can do that shit or speed force. anyway just a list of some of the abilities flash has

Superspeed (Multiple times faster than FTL)
Speed Steal. (Planetary range)
Time/Space/Dimension/universe hopping - He can do it multiple ways (Via Vibration, running or with some of his gadget)
Pseudo-Omnipresence - as large as a city
Can exist in multiple places at the same time like from 1 City to a whole other City on the other side of the planet.
Flight
Create Tornado's
He can also do what celebi did in that one movie
He also has the ability to temporarily memorize a whole library of books.
Time-stop -> Can move so fast time is literally stopped
Intangibility
Create shit out of speed force.
See the future (Pretty sure it was passive)
Super Strength - More Speed, More Mass and you know how that formula works..

Reactions: Informative 1


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> See the future (Pretty sure it was passive)



Ok. That answers one of my question about the limits of the ability. Can you answer the other ones I mentioned?


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

I'd also appreciate a scan of him using the ability.


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

There's also that shit where if he felt something brush him he would passively vibrate to intangibility


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## Drake3513 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Er no that's not all he has..
> 
> basically the explanation most of the time is he is so fast he can do that shit or speed force. anyway just a list of some of the abilities flash has
> 
> ...


Thanks for that info. Man flash is op.


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'd also appreciate a scan of him using the ability.


 

Hope that img works


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> There's also that shit where if he felt something brush him he would passively vibrate to intangibility



Well since the shockwaves are intangible to begin with that passive vibration may be thrown off. And the power behind the attack would be enough that just it brushing him would kill him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> There's also that shit where if he felt something brush him he would passively vibrate to intangibility


Also, taking a note from Nu52 RF and controlling his own timeline.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Hope that img works



Seems a bit unreliable. Just a bunch of flashes of images. Now this is just a guess/assumption judging from that scan but it seems like it activates once in a while giving him a bunch of information but not every time he's in danger of dying in the near future like Spider-Man's spider sense.


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## Bad Wolf (Jan 25, 2017)

Isn't flash many times faster than Hit? Even if somehow Hit try any attack isn't that like never going to hit?


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

For hit's ability how does it hit its target if it remains intangible?


Also what's the proof of it being intangible just because it doesn't damage the surrounding?


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Isn't flash many times faster than Hit? Even if somehow Hit try any attack isn't that like never going to hit?



It seems you haven't been paying attention to this thread. Flash could definitely dodge any attack Hit could throw at him IF he could see them but Hit can use invisible/intangible shockwaves that Flash wouldn't be able to see so he wouldn't think to dodge them even though he could react to them if he could see them.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

Flash isn't a speedster like you normally understand it.

What he is basically a kinetic Energy manipulator on a very high end scale. 
This is why his speed doesn't really have a limit and he can manipulate things in a certain manner.


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## Bad Wolf (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Flash could definitely dodge any attack Hit could throw at him IF he could see them but Hit can use invisible/intangible shockwaves that Flash wouldn't be able to see so he wouldn't think to dodge them even though he could react to them if he could see them.


Lol. What I'm saying is that if Flash is massively faster than Hit, that invisibile shockwaves would never hit him unless Flash stay still. Is like someone who try to murder someone with a gun that shot invisible bullet at 0,0001 m/s


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> For hit's ability how does it hit its target if it remains intangible?



It goes through them and hits their heart. Though when it grazed Goku and clearly caused him pain that probably indicates it turns tangible soon after impact.



shade0180 said:


> Also what's the proof of it being intangible just because it doesn't damage the surrounding?



We see it pass through a tree and Goku specifically says "I didn't expect it to be able to pass through matter"


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Lol. What I'm saying is that if Flash is massively faster than Hit, that invisibile shockwaves would never hit him unless Flash stay still. Is like someone who try to murder someone with a gun that shot invisible bullet at 0,0001 m/s



Why would Flash be constantly moving all around? When Flash sees Hit's projection I'd assume he would stay in one place and repeatedly try to hit it or use different abilities on it. He wouldn't be entirely still but he'd be in a certain general area to a degree he could be targeted. Not to mention Hit could sense Flash's life force.


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

Also what's stopping flash from speed stealing the whole kinetic energy in Hit's whole dimensional area right at the start of the match?



 remember they are only 20 meters apart.



xenos5 said:


> It goes through them and hits their heart. Though when it grazed Goku and clearly caused him pain that probably indicates it turns tangible soon after impact.



So it turns tangible and in turn flash becomes intangible. making it useless to begin with.



xenos5 said:


> When Flash sees Hit's projection I'd assume he would stay in one place and repeatedly try to hit it or use different abilities on it. He wouldn't be entirely still but he'd be in a certain general area to a degree he could be targeted.



Because Flash isn't a brawler. he more or less will run first before punching someone. which is what he always does.


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> *It goes through them and hits their heart.* Though when it grazed Goku and clearly caused him pain that probably indicates it turns tangible soon after impact.
> 
> 
> 
> We see it pass through a tree and Goku specifically says "I didn't expect it to be able to pass through matter"



Wait, why would it hit his heart if he's entirely intangible?


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## Bad Wolf (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Why would Flash be constantly moving all around? When Flash sees Hit's projection I'd assume he would stay in one place and repeatedly try to hit it or use different abilities on it. He wouldn't be entirely still but he'd be in a certain general area to a degree he could be targeted. Not to mention Hit could sense Flash's life force.


Why would flash stay still for a period of time that for him would likely be much longer? Even without everything that flash can do to don't care about that attack, why there's this retarded assumption that flash wouldn't move? Really.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

You understand Flash has intangibility and can slow down any shock wave via speed steel? He can still sense it once it's in motion it's free range for him. This guy ran out of Captain Cold cold aura which is absolute zero, that's also invisible.

His perception of time is almost Planck in other words he can anticipate attacks ?


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> So it turns tangible and in turn flash becomes intangible. making it useless to begin with.



If it's intangible when it grazes or touches Flash and Flash is also intangible it would be tangible to him and would damage him. Or it would just become tangible before hitting Flash's heart so his body would be damaged too severely before that automatic response of vibration intangibility from it grazing him could be achieved (considering it hurt Goku when it grazed him). Though maybe I'm misunderstanding the ability and it just hurt Goku despite being intangible  . In which case it would hold the same destructive capacity without turning tangible.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Why would flash stay still for a period of time that for him would likely be much longer? Even without everything that flash can do to don't care about that attack, why there's this retarded assumption that flash wouldn't move? Really.



If a speedster is doing a flurry of punches why would they be constantly moving around? If you're hitting one target you'd want to be in the general area of that target.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Bad Wolf (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> If a speedster is doing a flurry of punches why would they be constantly moving around? If you're hitting one target you'd want to be in the general area of that target.


Seems a very poor way to say that flash will be standing still. I don't even sure that Hit can react to him, let alone aim and hit


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

Anyone recall if Barry learned Selkirk's speed force abilities? Because if so, then this is even more of a mismatch


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> If a speedster is doing a flurry of punches why would they be constantly moving around?



Yea not going to happen that shit only happens when his opponent is moving as fast as him (Doom for example, they are moving across the city or even the planet while punching each other.)

What he mostly does to a slower opponent is 
send a single punch -> if they are down that's it. It can range from a superspeed normal punch to Imp
Vibrate through them -> there are multiple shit that can happen -> make them explode -> Vibrate an organ out of their body


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Yea not going to happen that shit only happens when his opponent is moving as fast as him (Doom for example, they are moving across the city or even the planet while punching each other.)
> 
> What he mostly does to a slower opponent is
> send a single punch -> if they are down that's it. It can range from a superspeed normal punch to Imp
> Vibrate through them -> there are multiple shit that can happen -> make them explode -> Vibrate an organ out of their body



It could also happen when his punches aren't doing any damage to the target (they're tanking them) or in this case his punches are going straight through them (though it's not Hit he would be hitting but a projection).


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## Nep Heart (Jan 25, 2017)

Remember that Hit vs Pre-Crisis Superman thread? The speed difference between Hit and The Flash is even more absurd than that. Is it really a suggestion to claim The Flash is mentally retarded enough not to figure out Hit's gimmick in a perspective of trillions of years for every second in Hit's perspective... a gimmick that's not really all that special compared to what the former has dealt with. So, really, the real question is what can The Flash do with "trillion years of prep".

 Realistically, this is what an absurd speed gap such as this looks like.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3 | Informative 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

I have to unleash my newest device. The Jogga Signal!

@Sir Jogga 

I don't have a catchy theme song like the 60s Batman yet. I need to work on that.

Anyways, you know anything that I don't about Wally?


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## Kaaant (Jan 25, 2017)

If Flash perceiving one second like a thousand years is true, as soon as he feels a light breeze from Hit, invisible or not the guy is going to be able to phase that gay shit through him.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How is me not knowing every single feat Flash has ever done, wank? And why don't you provide proof if you're so confident?



honestly and I hate to side with that mouth breathing tard...because this is shit you were expected to know back before the calc cult took over. The general knowledge base of the OBD has declined so drastically that anyone with any decent amount of knowledge could probably run game on you fuckers right now.

Simply put Flash does things like dump SBP into the speed force, steal an opponents speed and reduce them to an eternal statue..engage in brawls with time warpers on a level far more sophisticated than Hit _were superman of the post leob era mister hundreds of trillions of times C was a statue relative to the fight happening around him
_
Flash can enter dimensions, Flash can fuck with dimensions and while certain Flash's do have trouble with time based powers, its the kind of temporal hax that Hit would be hard pressed to duplicate.;

Reactions: Informative 4


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I have to unleash my newest device. The Jogga Signal!
> 
> @Sir Jogga
> 
> *I don't have a catchy theme song* like the 60s Batman yet. I need to work on that.





Blakk Jakk said:


> Anyways, you know anything that I don't about Wally?


probably not,

 outside of the fact that the only people in DC that are, arguably, faster than this Wally are Kingdom Come Flash(Which is like normal Flash on Crack), and Pre-Crisis Flash.

There is still the problem of a WIIIIIIIIIIDE speed gap between the two.

And that's life and death for Hit because Wally can literally just speed steal Hit if a fraction of an opportunity presented itself.

I recall that he can speed steal from a distance too, but don't quote me on that cuz my memory of that is hazy

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> probably not,
> 
> outside of the fact that the only people in DC that are, arguably, faster than this Wally are Kingdom Come Flash(Which is like normal Flash on Crack), and Pre-Crisis Flash.
> 
> ...


He was able to drain the kinetic energy of an entire planet so a planetary diameter should be a good range for that ability.


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> He was able to drain the kinetic energy of an entire planet so a planetary diameter should be a good range for that ability.


He drained Inertia until he was essentially a living statue.

Wally touches Hit, and its over


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> If a speedster is doing a flurry of punches why would they be constantly moving around? If you're hitting one target you'd want to be in the general area of that target.



yeah, the Flash is going to be doing this, while also punching him with vibrating fist that rapidly accelerates the molecules it comes in contact with, vibrating through hit's molecular structure until large chunks of him explode..and he'll be doing this at a level of speed that Hit will be helpless against.a statue towards


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 25, 2017)

Kaaant said:


> If Flash perceiving one second like a thousand years is true, as soon as he feels a light breeze from Hit, invisible or not the guy is going to be able to phase that gay shit through him.



Nah,  is *23,759,448,520,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000c *whereas  is merely 766,398,870,000,000c. A second from hit's perspective is *9,823,965,100,000,000,000,000,000,000* years from Flash's perspective.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> He drained Inertia until he was essentially a living statue.
> 
> Wally touches Hit, and its over


His Speed Steal was also able to affect the Anti-Monitor as well as his phasing but that might be an outlier for his ability or just proof of how broken his hax is.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yeah, the Flash is going to be doing this, while also punching him with vibrating fist that rapidly accelerates the molecules it comes in contact with, vibrating through hit's molecular structure until large chunks of him explode..and he'll be doing this at a level of speed that Hit will be helpless against.a statue towards



I already conceded the debate with Ampchu's thorough post but i'll respond to this. 

I know Hit loses the first scenario. I was only commenting on the second scenario where I thought Hit stood a chance. In that scenario Hit started inside his pocket dimension and he can still send shockwave attacks at his opponent even while inside of it. What Flash would be punching or trying to phase through with his fist would just be a energy projection of Hit and Hit would recieve no damage from his projection being messed with.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> His Speed Steal was also able to affect the Anti-Monitor as well as his phasing but that might be an outlier for his ability or just proof of how broken his hax is.


It's hard to tell, considering one half of Flash writers tend to ignore the Hax compleatly in hopes of prolonging a fight, and the other half just make the Hax more ridiculous

I recal a writer making New 52 Barry able to BFR Gorilla Grodd and himself into the speed force by just using his mind


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## Blαck (Jan 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> I recal a writer making New 52 Barry able to BFR Gorilla Grodd and himself into the speed force by just using his mind


Pretty much, Grodd was about to lance his ass so he dragged the spear, Grodd and a bit of the area around him into the speed force.


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 25, 2017)

The fight has been settled the flash wins
While hit has the obvious DC/durability advantage he has nothing to counter the Flash hax where Wally could bfr him to the speed force.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 25, 2017)

You know it's funny when you think about it.
People always talk about how if superman or batman turned evil it would be everyone's worst nightmare while in reality The flash being evil (specifically Wally) would be _farrrrrrrrr worse_.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Pretty much, Grodd was about to lance his ass so he dragged the spear, Grodd and a bit of the area around him into the speed force.


I also recall Grodd plagiarizing Zod too

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Claudio Swiss said:


> You know it's funny when you think about it.
> People always talk about how if superman or batman turned evil it would be everyone's worst nightmare while in reality The flash being evil (specifically Wally) would be _farrrrrrrrr worse_.


Any of the Reverse Flashes are huge problems to contend with especially Zolomon. He's basically The Shrike Lite and even that's pretty terrifying to think about.


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Claudio Swiss said:


> You know it's funny when you think about it.
> People always talk about how if superman or batman turned evil it would be everyone's worst nightmare while in reality The flash being evil (specifically Wally) would be _farrrrrrrrr worse_.


Honestly, with so many superpowered assholes that could just drop kick the moon with their pinkie toes?

Incredibly unlikely.

There are just so many heroes that can just fuck with the Laws of Nature for a guy like Wally to suddenly take over like that, as powerful and Hax-a-plenty as he is.

Not if my boy Metropolis Kid has anything say about it!! (RIP Haro )


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Honestly, with so many superpowered assholes that could just drop kick the moon with their pinkie toes?
> 
> Incredibly unlikely.
> 
> There are just so many heroes that can just fuck with the Laws of Nature for a guy like Wally to suddenly take over like that, as powerful and Hax-a-plenty as he is.


One of the most nightmarish things I remember from Flashpoint was the evil Plastic Man. That was pretty damn freaky especially considering how happy go-lucky Plas always is excluding the 50s Plastic Man run that took on a darker turn because the author was writing horror comics at the time.


Sir Jogga said:


> Not if my boy Metropolis Kid has anything say about it!! (*RIP Haro* )


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> One of the most nightmarish things I remember from Flashpoint was the evil Plastic Man. That was pretty damn freaky especially considering how happy go-lucky Plas always is excluding the 50s Plastic Man run that took on a darker turn because the author was writing horror comics at the time.


It's a typical trope. Effective too.

It just gives people people chills to se someone so happy-go-lucky and filled with well-meaning moxie just turn into a monster.

. That's why so many people like to see heroes turn Bad. Like Reed Richards in the Ultimate Universe or any Superman-expy story


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> It's a typical trope. Effective too.
> 
> It just gives people people chills to se someone so happy-go-lucky and filled with well-meaning moxie just turn into a monster.
> 
> . That's why so many people like to see heroes turn Bad. Like Reed Richards in the Ultimate Universe or any Superman-expy story


I guess it was a bit more effective because we've all been desensitized by now to Superman going bad but with Plastic Man, that was different. Add onto the fact that his powers haven't been as well explored as say Superman or Flash and it becomes more and more disturbing to see Plas become that and use his powers in ways we never thought he'd use them for.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I guess it was a bit more effective because we've all been desensitized by now to Superman going bad but with Plastic Man, that was different. Add onto the fact that his powers haven't been as well explored as say Superman or Flash and it becomes more and more disturbing to see Plas become that and use his powers in ways we never thought he'd use them for.


Not even bad.

Just get him(Plastic Man) out-of-character in general and it's already leaving me with a bigger impact than Superman being Bad.

Half because Plas being emotional and raw actually tugs at your heartstrings

And the other Half because Superman being bad has unfortunately been more frequent than Superman being able to empathize


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Not even bad.
> 
> Just get him(Plastic Man) out-of-character in general and it's already leaving me with a bigger impact than Superman being Bad.
> 
> Half because Plas being emotional and raw actually tugs at your heartstrings


Weirdly, a lot of the 50s Plastic Man stuff was like that. A lot of it was very existential and atmospheric. The art became more angular, the shading darker and the faces more detailed. Even Plas who generally has a giant smile on his face had lines running down his cheeks and rings around his eyes. That era was...strange to say the least.


Sir Jogga said:


> And the other Half because Superman being bad has unfortunately been more frequent than Superman being able to empathize


You've got me more depressed now and I thought I'd do that to myself recalling the 50s Plastic Man run


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I already conceded the debate with Ampchu's thorough post but i'll respond to this.
> 
> I know Hit loses the first scenario. I was only commenting on the second scenario where I thought Hit stood a chance. In that scenario Hit started inside his pocket dimension and he can still send shockwave attacks at his opponent even while inside of it. What Flash would be punching or trying to phase through with his fist would just be a energy projection of Hit and Hit would recieve no damage from his projection being messed with.



my point wasn't to get you to concede, so much as to highlight a serious fucking problem we've got.

Why would hit being inside his pocket dimension or shockwaves that move so slow as to be stationary matter to the stronger incarnations of the flash? Why is Flash punching a mass of energy when he'd already be inside Hilts dimension beating him retarded, age regressing him by dragging him through time or just sealing him forever as a statue?


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Weirdly, a lot of the 50s Plastic Man stuff was like that. A lot of it was very existential and atmospheric. The art became more angular, the shading darker and the faces more detailed. Even Plas who generally has a giant smile on his face had lines running down his cheeks and rings around his eyes. That era was...strange to say the least.




Well that seems interesting, considering this was the Silver Age we are talking about


Blakk Jakk said:


> You've got me more depressed now and I thought I'd do that to myself recalling the 50s Plastic Man run


Rebirth wants to bring on more light heated stuff, atleast

Still too much Evil and/or incompetent Superman in the air


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Well that seems interesting, considering this was the Silver Age we are talking about


It was the early to mid 50s, not quite 1956 with the debut of Barry Allen although I think Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen was in publication right around the suicide of Jack Cole.  There was some real dark shit that happened in that guy's life that inspired the horror comics he put out as well as the later parts of his Plastic Man run. The initial stuff was fun, campy Golden Age stuff but the later half was just depressing as hell and not easy to read.


Sir Jogga said:


> Rebirth wants to bring on more light heated stuff, atleast
> 
> *Still too much Evil and/or incompetent Superman in the air*


I saw an Injustice 2 trailer earlier. I don't know if I should complain or not about that.


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> It was the early to mid 50s, not quite 1956 with the debut of Barry Allen although I think Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen was in publication right around the suicide of Jack Cole. There was some real dark shit that happened in that guy's life that inspired the horror comics he put out as well as the later parts of his Plastic Man run. The initial stuff was fun, campy Golden Age stuff but the later half was just depressing as hell and not easy to read.


Who was the writer again 


Blakk Jakk said:


> I saw an Injustice 2 trailer earlier. I don't know if I should complain or not about that.


People are going to buy it anyhow and claim it's great. So whatever. Just sit ourselves down on a corner to cry n' shit


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## The Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Flash beating Hit is  agreed upon anyhow?

Threads over I guess


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Who was the writer again


Jack Cole was the writer and artist and the creator of the character. Back before DC Comics purchased the character, his stories were published in "Police Comics." And just as a sample of how fucked up the later Plastic Man stories got, have some of 


Sir Jogga said:


> People are going to buy it anyhow and claim it's great. So whatever. Just sit ourselves down on a corner to cry n' shit


To be fair it is a fighting game and most fighting games have pretty silly plot lines. Add in the fact its based on superheroes and the plot line gets dumber so I guess I don't have much to complain about.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

The Flash is a trickry herald where DC doesn't matter to him. It's mostly is your hax better and superior to his and are you fast enough to use it.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> or shockwaves that move so slow as to be stationary matter to the stronger incarnations of the flash?



I never doubted he would be able to react to them if he he could see them or sense them. But they're invisible and I don't recall Flash having any special energy senses so they would be an attack capable of catching him off guard. Flash isn't incapable of being hit by an attack when he can't see it coming at all and doesn't know he's being attacked. 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Why is Flash punching a mass of energy when he'd already be inside Hilts dimension beating him retarded, age regressing him by dragging him through time or just sealing him forever as a statue?



I thought it'd take some measure of time for Flash to figure out Hit is using a pocket dimension as it isn't obvious at all from the abilities Hit uses with it (the energy projection he uses while he's actually in the pocket dimension would most likely just come off as intangibility). But Ampchu pointed out Flash'd have thousands of years practically due to his perception of time because of his speed (I hadn't thought of that because you don't usually see it as being portrayed that way in the comics though that's probably just PIS).


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## Gordo solos (Jan 25, 2017)

Pretty sure Flash can interact with intangibles anyways


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Pretty sure Flash can interact with intangibles anyways



Hit doesn't use intangibility for himself (he just goes into a pocket dimension and projects an energy clone of himself). Only his shockwave attacks are intangible and if Flash tried to interact them he'd hurt/kill himself.


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## Gomu (Jan 25, 2017)

Is the calc from before it was figured out that DB was a macrocosm. Was his best feat outrunning the big bang or running through the multiverse in a short period of time?


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 25, 2017)

Drake3513 said:


> 1. hit starts outside his dimension.
> 2.hit starts inside his dimension.
> who wins?



Tricky.  Flash's power allows him to "move time forward" (from what I recall of the Nu52, and that ability allowed him to match Thawne).  

With Hit, we know that a sufficient amount of power (or speed) can allow one to "move in frozen time" (or move in Hit's dimension, as the case may be).

It depends on who is able to get in the finishing blow first.  I don't think I can decide who would win.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I never doubted he would be able to react to them if he he could see them or sense them. But they're invisible and I don't recall Flash having any special energy senses so they would be an attack capable of catching him off guard. Flash isn't incapable of being hit by an attack when he can't see it coming at all and doesn't know he's being attacked.



you're not understanding, those shockwaves are stationary objects as far as any decent Flash is concerned, Flash's reaction time and reflexes are such that all he has to do is vaguely "feel" something and he'll correct his course appropriately. Hit has literally nothing that can damage the flash unless the flash acts like a retard.




xenos5 said:


> I thought it'd take some measure of time for Flash to figure out Hit is using a pocket dimension as it isn't obvious at all from the abilities Hit uses with it (the energy projection he uses while he's actually in the pocket dimension would most likely just come off as intangibility). But Ampchu pointed out Flash'd have thousands of years practically due to his perception of time because of his speed* (I hadn't thought of that because you don't usually see it as being portrayed that way in the comics though that's probably just PIS).*



dude had an entire fight with one of the Zooms from his perspective, around Superman who was at the time, fapped out by the writers to such a retarded degree he was nearly SBP lite..Superman was a statue an inanimate object more or less from the POV of the two characters..Clark who himself is capable of moving hundreds of millions to billions to low trillions of times the speed of light at a bare minimum..was not aware the fight was happening at all.

So yes, this does in fact occur, though not often for narrative purposes as you say PIS.



Catalyst75 said:


> It depends on who is able to get in the finishing blow first.  I don't think I can decide who would win.




this is an absurd conclusion to come to



xenos5 said:


> Hit doesn't use intangibility for himself (he just goes into a pocket dimension and projects an energy clone of himself). *Only his shockwave attacks are intangible and if Flash tried to interact them he'd hurt/kill himself.*



Based on what?


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you're not understanding, those shockwaves are stationary objects as far as any decent Flash is concerned, Flash's reaction time and reflexes are such *that all he has to do is vaguely "feel" something and he'll correct his course appropriately*. Hit has literally nothing that can damage the flash unless the flash acts like a retard.



If he vaguely "feels" the shockwave attack that would mean it would touching him and he'd be dead. As it's invisible, doesn't make any noise, and is certainly not detectable by smell. Getting only grazed by a universe level+ attack isn't going to reduce the damage so much he lives. To my knowledge he just doesn't have the necessary kind of sensing that would be required to be able to tell it was coming towards him. 

Course this doesn't matter due to the whole perception thing as he'd have to stay in one place/general area for an ungodly amount of time from his perspective but as I said I hadn't thought of that. So I think my position at that time was justified.


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## Blade (Jan 25, 2017)

AMAZING vs thread


Speed Force Dump and Infinite Mass Punch saves the day
_
_
good game


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## Gordo solos (Jan 25, 2017)

Flash's speed and hax lets him have a field day with the verse 

Although I _can _see Zeno winning


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Flash's speed and hax lets him have a field day with the verse
> 
> Although I _can _see Zeno winning



Giygasmasu as well (Fusion Zamasu after his essence fused with the universe and he became incorporeal). BFRing an entire corrupted universe or speed stealing from it should be beyond Flash's capabilities.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

I need to see a little bit more from DBS characters other that energy blast that can take out a universe. They finally getting some time powers in there good but parlor tricks/trump cards isn't cutting it.

As of now there sre still several herald level characters who fuck up the verse.


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> I need to see a little bit more from DBS characters other that energy blast that can take out a universe. They finally getting some time powers in there good but parlor tricks/trump cards isn't cutting it.
> 
> *As of now there are still several herald level characters who fuck up the verse.*



The whole verse? How would any of them be able to deal with a living universe (that by virtue of being a universe would have non-corporeality and some pretty good mind hax resistance)? Speed wouldn't matter as much with that as Giygasmasu is essentially omnipresent in a universal range (not saying omnipresence is speed but that omnipresence makes speed matter less in a fight). And unless any of them have hax with universal range any part they manage to destroy or distort can be reformed and they can be surrounded with attacks far above their DC/durability.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

Do any of these top tier showcase consistent reality warping skills? Omni something? I mean Eternity and kismet are living multi verses and they could  baby shake the DBverse


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Do any of these top tier showcase consistent reality warping skills? Omni something? *I mean Eternity and kismet* are living multi verses and they could  baby shake the DBverse



You said several *herald level* characters. 

And the character i'm talking about is Fusion Zamasu right after he did this


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You said several *herald level* characters.
> 
> And the character i'm talking about is Fusion Zamasu right after he did this


Yes and some herald characters are borderline reality warpers.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Jan 25, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Yes and some herald characters are borderline reality warpers.



Beerus can destroy space-time (considering he can destroy the universe) and can destroy souls with hakai but he admitted he can't bypass the immortality given to Future Zamasu by Super Shenron. Fusion Zamasu has Future Zamasu's immortality as Future Zamasu is part of the fusion that makes him up.

The sheer AOE, and range of Giygasmasu, coupled with the power should be too much for them.


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## Blocky (Jan 25, 2017)

To beat Zamasu's final form, you least have to blow up all of the universe including time and space.

I doubt Herald characters beat him if he became one with the universe

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gordo solos (Jan 25, 2017)

Zamasu was like a virus when he became non-corporeal. He was starting to leak into other timelines and infect other universes. 

Unless you've got serious hax going on, you actually do need to destroy the "body" (the universe) itself to end him

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Juub (Jan 25, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Yes and some herald characters are borderline reality warpers.


But you brought up Eternity who is far above Herald level.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

Blocky said:


> To beat Zamasu's final form, you least have to blow up all of the universe including time and space.
> 
> I doubt Herald characters beat him if he became one with the universe


That's all I needed to be said thanks.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 25, 2017)

Juub said:


> But you brought up Eternity who is far above Herald level.


I wasn't saying he is herald level, I was  just pointing out being a living universe tend to rang for example kismet isn't on Enternity level


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 25, 2017)

You guys are using composite Flash lmao

You guys are using scans from new 52, post crisis and pretty sure I saw one from pre-crisis 

I don't know what kind of Flash comics you read but if a Universal character that has control over time appears in DC he would fuck Flash along with the JL


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## Imagine (Jan 25, 2017)

Doctor Fate says no


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> You guys are using composite Flash lmao






 The OP didn't say which version is this. and I did say that



> I usually go with composite if not stated or the most powerful version that exist.





Worldbreaker said:


> You guys are using scans from new 52, post crisis and pretty sure I saw one from pre-crisis



You do know that with composite all continuity is good game right?




Worldbreaker said:


> Universal character that has control over time appears in DC he would fuck Flash along with the JL



that Depends on which version of JL we are using. It also depends if we are using the JL's most powerful incarnation.

also it depends on the universal if he is a reality warper or just like hit that is only Physically universal.


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> The OP didn't say which version is this. and I did say that
> 
> You do know that with composite all continuity is good game right?
> 
> ...



You should ask the OP instead of assuming then, it's his thread after all


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## shade0180 (Jan 25, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> You should ask the OP instead of assuming then, it's his thread after all



It's not like it would change anything considering the main crux of the ability is always available to every flash


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> I know of this, he did it by breaking the time barrier and stuff like that, but it isn't like that would happen here, Hit would time-stop him punch him and kill him



Time stop gee not like Wally or Barry encountered that technique before...oh shit they have haven't they? A guy by the name Professor Zoom may have a word regarding that time stop thingy.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> I need to see a little bit more from DBS characters other that energy blast that can take out a universe. They finally getting some time powers in there good but parlor tricks/trump cards isn't cutting it.
> 
> As of now there sre still several herald level characters who fuck up the verse.


It doesn't just take out a Universe, that would mean that the universe is of a similar size of the known universe, the volume of this universe is far larger, that Universe+ wordplay gets people in trouble. When they destroy the universe they have to effectively destroy three realms, each considered its own "verse" the Makai, Mortal and Kai Realms.

Those shockwaves Beerus and Goku were making traversed the macrocosm in very short periods of time. The Flash barely (?) outran the Big Bang? The Big Bnag is an expansion of energy that is on a level that should have all the matter of the known universe so the expansion should be comparable to that of the known universe. The Macrocosm should be larger than that of the known universe, so it expands on a level similar to three universes, once again, the Mortal, Kai, and Makai.

If all three realms are comparable to the known universe, this would mean that Goku and Beerus effectively destroyed three universes in a shockwave, but it's only counted as a single universe, universe+ because it's a macrocosm. 

Just trying to explain, this is if people believe that DB is three universes put together. 

For an explanation - 

The map -  - Remember that hell is not the Makai, the Makai is the reverse of the Kai Realms. Think of the Kai realms as the realm of the "positive" universe, and the Makai as the "negative" universe.


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## shade0180 (Jan 26, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> Speed Stealing is something that has only been done in post-crisis



Because speed steal is the main crux of the Flash powers?

Not the ability to move back and forth in time, not the ability to cross over different dimension and universes, not the ability to run to become intangible, not the ability to perceive time in a slow motion to the point everything is standing still and other superspeed feat.


You know the abilities that could fuck over Hit.

 Speed steal is one of the option to beat Hit, it isn't the only one he can use to beat Hit.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It doesn't just take out a Universe, that would mean that the universe is of a similar size of the known universe, the volume of this universe is far larger, that Universe+ wordplay gets people in trouble. When they destroy the universe they have to effectively destroy three realms, each considered its own "verse" the Makai, Mortal and Kai Realms.
> 
> Those shockwaves Beerus and Goku were making traversed the macrocosm in very short periods of time. The Flash barely (?) outran the Big Bang? The Big Bnag is an expansion of energy that is on a level that should have all the matter of the known universe so the expansion should be comparable to that of the known universe. The Macrocosm should be larger than that of the known universe, so it expands on a level similar to three universes, once again, the Mortal, Kai, and Makai.
> 
> ...


The thing to take away from that is not the Big Bang feat is the time travel feat in particular he ran to the end of time where death no longer exist.
Secondly you be extremely hard press to try convince anyone here that DBS universe is larger than Earth-1 for DC universe. Then if we add in the Dimensions and so fort .
Time isn't a matter to a Flash nor the distance, he is Kinetic Energy personified. Then you add to he fact that he can take away and add to his own speed makes the speed argument mute no?


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Time stop gee not like Wally or Barry encountered that technique before...oh shit they have haven't they? A guy by the name Professor Zoom may have a word regarding that time stop thingy.



But Hit doesn't really time-stop per say he steals time and uses it in weird ways anyway Zoom is above Flash and he has never time-stop against him, you can show me a scan if you think I'm wrong 



shade0180 said:


> Because speed steal is the main crux of the ability?
> Not the ability to move back and forth in time, not the ability to cross over different dimension and universe, not the ability to run to become intangible, not the ability to perceive time in a slow motion to the point everything is standing still other superspeed feat.
> You know the abilities that could fuck over hit.



Most of those abilities wouldn't fuck over Hit lol


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> The thing to take away from that is not the Big Bang feat is the time travel feat in particular he ran to the end of time where death no longer exist.
> Secondly you be extremely hard press to try convince anyone here that DBS universe is larger than Earth-1 for DC universe. Then if we add in the Dimensions and so fort .
> Time isn't a matter to a Flash nor the distance, he is Kinetic Energy personified. Then you add to he fact that he can take away and add to his own speed makes the speed argument mute no?


But then you would have to go back to in serious events, the Flash getting hit or hurt by anything, because the practice of that amount of speed is not a near constant, the Flash isn't known for going full-out in terms of speed, and their are still drawbacks in the speed force such as being absorbed into it when you rely to heavily on amping yourself that high, or is that not a "weakness" any more.

Can I see pictures or scans of the universe then? If the case is that DC-1 is on the same level as the DB verse I hear what you're saying. But do not forget that Hit even without his Time-Skip is faster than Goku who was performing these feats with Beerus while in Red, and Blue he got stronger and faster.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> But Hit doesn't really time-stop per say he steals time and uses it in weird ways anyway Zoom is above Flash and he has never time-stop against him, you can show me a scan if you think I'm wrong
> 
> 
> 
> Most of those abilities wouldn't fuck over Hit lol


 

He can stop his own time line would appear as a time stop to Flash


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> But then you would have to go back to in serious events, the Flash getting hit or hurt by anything, because the practice of that amount of speed is not a near constant, the Flash isn't known for going full-out in terms of speed, and their are still drawbacks in the speed force such as being absorbed into it when you rely to heavily on amping yourself that high, or is that not a "weakness" any more.
> 
> Can I see pictures or scans of the universe then? If the case is that DC-1 is on the same level as the DB verse I hear what you're saying. But do not forget that Hit even without his Time-Skip is faster than Goku who was performing these feats with Beerus while in Red, and Blue he got stronger and faster.


The drawbacks doesn't affect Wally anymore since he first got lost in it. Wally just goes easy on his opponents but has the strongest connection to the speed force than any flash.

The point I am trying to make you can say DBS universe is three universes but that still count as a Universe to them not multiverse right? Sp
And I am not disputing that but Flash high ends are still faster than all three, and he has other methods he can use to be even faster


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## Juub (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Time stop gee not like Wally or Barry encountered that technique before...oh shit they have haven't they? A guy by the name Professor Zoom may have a word regarding that time stop thingy.


A bit of correction. Hit doesn't stop time. He steals time and uses it to create a space where he cannot be touched. It's referred to as "time skip" not time stop.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 26, 2017)

aaannnd the DBS jihadi's have shown up...lovely.

and as usual, all I see is dishonesty, downplay and low end showings abuse and the "hurr inconsistency" argument,.



xenos5 said:


> If he vaguely "feels" the shockwave attack that would mean it would touching him and he'd be dead.



no, it doesn't, you're not understanding the speed gap here...




xenos5 said:


> As it's invisible, doesn't make any noise, and is certainly not detectable by smell. Getting only grazed by a universe level+ attack isn't going to reduce the damage so much he lives. To my knowledge he just doesn't have the necessary kind of sensing that would be required to be able to tell it was coming towards him.



and you have on panel proof it can destroy universes?

not powerscaling and statements?



Juub said:


> A bit of correction. Hit doesn't stop time. He steals time and uses it to create a space where he cannot be touched. It's referred to as "time skip" not time stop.



So basically he's got a crummy shounen version of the kind of powers guy like Hunter Zolomon have.

Neat, Hit's fucked.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> The drawbacks doesn't affect Wally anymore since he first got lost in it. Wally just goes easy on his opponents but has the strongest connection to the speed force than any flash.
> 
> The point I am trying to make you can say DBS universe is three universes but that still count as a Universe to them not multiverse right? Sp
> And I am not disputing that but Flash high ends are still faster than all three, and he has other methods he can use to be even faster


Yes, except once again, the Flash barely outran a big bang before the Flash point shit happened. So yes, he's damn fast. But this macrocosm is also far larger than that of a default-sized universe is. You would have to show evidence to that, because as I said, a Big Bang is all the known matter of a universe expanding outward, would it not be of a comparable size to a default universe itself, or as you stated the "larger" universe that is DC-1?


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> He can stop his own time line would appear as a time stop to Flash



I ask for a scan of him full time stopping Flash not for what Zoom can do, I know what he can do


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## Gordo solos (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Do any of these top tier showcase consistent reality warping skills? Omni something? I mean Eternity and kismet are living multi verses and they could  baby shake the DBverse


I mean, DBS got this 

He's pretty much a giant Shenron. But I'm not sure if he's even applicable in a vs debate without prep


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> I ask for a scan of him full time stopping Flash not for what Zoom can do, I know what he can do


Your initial comment Hit would time stop Flash and punch him, my reply was Zoom can time stop and I just explain to you how he does it. He doesn't need to Time stop Flash if in the end it achieves the same effect no? 


And the Flash still moved in stop time


Juub said:


> A bit of correction. Hit doesn't stop time. He steals time and uses it to create a space where he cannot be touched. It's referred to as "time skip" not time stop.



Thanks

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crackle (Jan 26, 2017)

Wonder how many were blown away by just him being summoned or incidentally getting to close to one of them.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Juub said:


> A bit of correction. Hit doesn't stop time. He steals time and uses it to create a space where he cannot be touched. It's referred to as "time skip" not time stop.


Depends more on the opponent.


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## Gordo solos (Jan 26, 2017)

Crackle said:


> Wonder how many were blown away by just him being summoned or incidentally getting to close to one of them.


Super Shenron devoured a gas giant while he was growing in size and the light illuminated two universes. Although I'd imagine he just moved the galaxies away rather than just killing an innumerable amount of people


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

@Worldbreaker 


Another time stop


Drops mic

Reactions: Like 1


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no, it doesn't, you're not understanding the speed gap here...



You cut out the part of my post where I admitted 


xenos5 said:


> Course this doesn't matter due to the whole perception thing as he'd have to stay in one place/general area for an ungodly amount of time from his perspective but as I said I hadn't thought of that. So I think my position at that time was justified.


Unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant by this statement "*that all he has to do is vaguely "feel" something and he'll correct his course appropriately*." How would Flash vaguely feel an attack that wouldn't register with any of his senses unless it was already touching him? That doesn't make any sense. 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and you have on panel proof it can destroy universes?
> 
> *not powerscaling* and statements?



Why would powerscaling not work for it? It damaged SSB Goku when it grazed him and when it hit him straight on and stopped his heart and he's got universe level+ durability. 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> So basically he's got a crummy shounen version of the kind of powers guy like Hunter Zolomon have.
> 
> Neat, Hit's fucked.



Honestly I lean more towards the explanation Hit has actual timestop and his storing of time is a separate ability (as it matches more what we see in series). Course it's debatable either way. Anyways his time manipulation is certainly better than normal time manipulation (not saying it's as good as Zoom's but just trying to showcase it) as even against a character who can resist his timestop (SSB KKx10 Goku) Hit can still freeze them in time by directly stealing/storing their time


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Your initial comment Hit would time stop Flash and punch him, my reply was Zoom can time stop and I just explain to you how he does it. He doesn't need to Time stop Flash if in the end it achieves the same effect no?
> 
> 
> And the Flash still moved in stop time
> ...





Huey Freeman said:


> @Worldbreaker
> 
> 
> Another time stop
> ...



Flash was amped, 3 other speedsters gave him their speed so he could see Zoom lmao

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> Flash was amped, 3 other speedsters gave him their speed so he could see Zoom lmao


You are acting as if Hit and Zoom are comparable, and The Flash can't amp himself via stealing from hit. Anyway I believe the third scan was all him so yeah.
You said zoom had no time stop, I proved you wrong


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> You are acting as if Hit and Zoom are comparable, and The Flash can't amp himself via stealing from hit. Anyway I believe the third scan was all him so yeah.
> You said zoom had no time stop, I proved you wrong



No, the third scan is when he got the third boost from Jessica, boy did you even read the comic? lol

I never said Zoom had no time stop


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## shade0180 (Jan 26, 2017)

Anyway why is Zoom being used here?

Hit's abilities and Zoom abilities are applied and use differently.



Flash needed the boost to enter the Zone Where Zoom exist that's literally what the whole event entailed..

In Hit's case and ability, it is Hit himself who is sending FLash in his Zone, And scenario 2 Flash is already inside Hit's dimension.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> You are acting as if Hit and Zoom are comparable, and The Flash can't amp himself via stealing from hit. Anyway I believe the third scan was all him so yeah.
> You said zoom had no time stop, I proved you wrong


No he stated multiple times he wished to see Barry's Timestop.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Anyway why is Zoom being used here?
> 
> Hit's abilities and Zoom abilities are applied and use differently.
> 
> ...


zoom was brought up because Some guys here think Flash has not encountered anyone similar to Hit.


Gomu said:


> No he stated multiple times he wished to see Barry's Timestop.


Barry don't apply time stop in the same conventional manner his Speed steal what he did to Impulse where Time was so slow it will take him like a 100 years to blink or some shit like that.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

But that's not time stop. That's his reactions being so fast that time slows to such a thing that "crawl" isn't the right word for how fast he can move. Hit's ability is based on a power that actually affects time, one of Barry's Key weaknesses I might add, as Zoom is literally his strongest foe due to having the ability to always be "faster" than Barry thanks to the constant manipulation of his own personal time.

Hit's ability is by far weaker than Zoom's own ability, but it still allows him to affect his own personal time to a degree that it slows down those who are weaker than himself. Barry has hax, but Hit beats him in almost every other physical category other than speed. And that is only possibly because Barry still had trouble escaping a Big Bang and you have yet to show the relative size of DC-1 compared to DB's macrocosm.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> But that's not time stop. That's his reactions being so fast that time slows to such a thing that "crawl" isn't the right word for how fast he can move. Hit's ability is based on a power that actually affects time, one of Barry's Key weaknesses I might add, as Zoom is literally his strongest foe due to having the ability to always be "faster" than Barry thanks to the constant manipulation of his own personal time.
> 
> Hit's ability is by far weaker than Zoom's own ability, but it still allows him to affect his own personal time to a degree that it slows down those who are weaker than himself. Barry has hax, but Hit beats him in almost every other physical category other than speed. And that is only possibly because Barry still had trouble escaping a Big Bang and you have yet to show the relative size of DC-1 compared to DB's macrocosm.


Okay but lets establish something here real quick, is it time stop or does he just temporarily loop a specific time frame in a time bubble if you say and call that  a dimension? 

Barry weakness is not time, reason why Zoom ability is dangerous to a Flash is because he has his own timeline outside of the DC main time line and the way Zoom interact with our timeline. 

Thats not what Hit does not one bit. 

Eh I wouldnt say a Flash is outclass by all physical stats I mean a Flash has speed, stamina, endurance, how exactly physically strong hit is? etc etc so lets not confuse energy output with physicals here.

DC verse has no definite size per universe however we know their universe is far complex and flesh out than DB universe. Saying it is compromise of 3 universes doesn't mean anything to me if their universe is far simple than DC.


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## twirdman (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Eh I wouldnt say a Flash is outclass by all physical stats I mean a Flash has speed, stamina, endurance, how exactly physically strong hit is? etc etc so lets not confuse energy output with physicals here.
> .



Hit's punches are able to harm SSB Vegeta and Goku so Hit clearly wins in the physical strength department.


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## Cain1234 (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> DC verse has no definite size per universe however we know their universe is far complex and flesh out than DB universe. Saying it is compromise of 3 universes doesn't mean anything to me if their universe is far simple than DC.




Ok what the fuck does a "simpler universe" mean. A universe is a universe. There is no "complexity" in it. It has Space, then time, and may contain the interaction of forces and fields, which in turn produces the effect of mass and energy existance.

All universes are made of like  99.99% empty spaces. Intraction between forces and fields give value to stuff such as mass and energy, existance of quantum effects gives credence to a set of infinite probable interactions. There is no mythical or hypothetical "complexity" that you are referring to as.

There is nothing that shows that a Single DC Earth is greater to less than any one of DBS Uchu(Universe) other that your own opinion.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Hit's punches are able to harm SSB Vegeta and Goku so Hit clearly wins in the physical strength department.


That's not telling me anything I want to know what are his strength feats, can he punch and destroy a planet with raw strength alone?


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Ok what the fuck does a "simpler universe" mean. A universe is a universe. There is no "complexity" in it.
> 
> All universes are made of like all of matter and mass 99.99% empty spaces. Intraction between forces and fields give value to stuff such as mass and energy, existance of quantum effects gives credence to a set of infinite probable interactions. There is no mythical or hypothetical "complexity" that you are referring to as.
> 
> There is nothing that shows that a Single DC Earth is greater to less than anyone of DB Uchu(Universe) other that your own opinion.


And this applies to my point so how does a Universe said to be a universe with the combination of 3 universes can be said bigger than a next universe? It doesn't


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Ok what the fuck does a "simpler universe" mean. A universe is a universe. There is no "complexity" in it. It has Space, then time, and may contain the interaction of forces and fields, which in turn produces the effect of mass and energy existance.
> 
> All universes are made of like  99.99% empty spaces. Intraction between forces and fields give value to stuff such as mass and energy, existance of quantum effects gives credence to a set of infinite probable interactions. There is no mythical or hypothetical "complexity" that you are referring to as.
> 
> There is nothing that shows that a Single DC Earth is greater to less than any one of DBS Uchu(Universe) other that your own opinion.


The DCU is larger than the IRL universe at 200 trillion light years in diameter compared to the DB universe thats 10x the size of the IRL universe if I'm not getting that wrong. The size of a universe in DC is larger than DB's from what I can tell.


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## Agent9149 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The DCU is larger than the IRL universe at 200 trillion light years in diameter compared to the DB universe thats 10x the size of the IRL universe if I'm not getting that wrong. The size of a universe in DC is larger than DB's from what I can tell.



I thought the DB universe was just double the volume of the real world


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> That's not telling me anything I want to know what are his strength feats, can he punch and destroy a planet with raw strength alone?



He can damage SSB Goku who is far more durable than BoG arc base Goku w/god ki who went inside of a universe level+ combined ki attack and destroyed it.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> I thought the DB universe was just double the volume of the real world


I've heard it was 10 times the size of the IRL universe but I may be wrong about that. That's the impression I got while debating in Pre-Crisis Supes vs Hit.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Hold up someone claim its 3 universes combine and now its 10 times larger than our own? Make up your minds


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I've heard it was 10 times the size of the IRL universe but I may be wrong about that. That's the impression I got while debating in Pre-Crisis Supes vs Hit.


I explained all this earlier, DBS has the possibility of 3 universes in one in each universe, which is why Universe+ is very unassuming. The volume of DBS as a verse is seemingly 3 universes crammed into one, Kai (Heaven), Makai (not Hell) and Mortal Realms.

Please don't go back to the thing I wish people would stop. Ki is used for all attacks, or if you are an android, a variant supply of ki. If you can hurt someone with that ki that has the ability to tank world breakers, you are a world breaker yourself. That means characters like Yamcha, Tien, etc. Are world breakers because they were superior to characters like Saiyan Invasion Vegeta and by the end of the Freeza Arc at least above the Ginyu Force in power thanks to a tidbit from Dr. Gero stating that Yamcha was on par with Goku (in base without Kaioken and Super Saiyan) after the Freeza Arc. That would easily make them planet busters. You would be saying that Hit, a character that can lock blows with Goku is weaker than Yamcha, Tien and Krillin. That's how bad that argument is. @Huey Freeman 

Goku was a Universe Buster and had the Durability to boot. This would mean that being capable of taking any hits from Goku, even from his base and Goku was fighting seriously, you would have to be a Universe Buster and have Universe Durability, because ki is used to reinforce almost all attacks in DB. Characters have been harmed and killed by physical blows. Cell used his Power-Weighted Form to try to kill Gohan with Physical Blows while bloodlusted. Can we stop trying to use that as a way to weaken DBS's physical potentials, please.

Hit has at least Physical Strength and Durability over the Flash, then again that's more relative. We're talking about two characters who are almost equal (Goku and Hit) fighting against one another in a head-to-head battle. Hit also hasn't shown any vast weaknesses in stamina. He fought for long periods of time with Goku before the detriments of Goku's Kaioken had Goku exhausted and hurting.

Can you please stop beating around the bush and show DC-1 being of a comparable size to DB's Macrocosms.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Hold up someone claim its 3 universes combine and now its 10 times larger than our own? Make up your minds


I didn't say that, someone else did do not lump me with them. I'm just going by the facts: Heaven, the Mortal Realm and Makai all encompass the same universe but in different space times, they are all three universes proportional to themselves, and thus are three whole universes.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I explained all this earlier, DBS has the possibility of 3 universes in one in each universe, which is why Universe+ is very unassuming. The volume of DBS as a verse is seemingly 3 universes crammed into one, Kai (Heaven), Makai (not Hell) and Mortal Realms.
> 
> Please don't go back to the thing I wish people would stop. Ki is used for all attacks, or if you are an android, a variant supply of ki. If you can hurt someone with that ki that has the ability to tank world breakers, you are a world breaker yourself. That means characters like Yamcha, Tien, etc. Are world breakers because they were superior to characters like Saiyan Invasion Vegeta and by the end of the Freeza Arc at least above the Ginyu Force in power thanks to a tidbit from Dr. Gero stating that Yamcha was on par with Goku (in base without Kaioken and Super Saiyan) after the Freeza Arc. That would easily make them planet busters. You would be saying that Hit, a character that can lock blows with Goku is weaker than Yamcha, Tien and Krillin. That's how bad that argument is. @Huey Freeman
> 
> ...


I have no idea what the fuck you got from my post that inspired this overly long tirade but okay.

As for proof, the DCU stretches 100 trillion light years from Earth according to Adam Strange which is its radius. Endless Mike actually did a calc about that on his blog to get the yield of Imperiex's Big Bang.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I have no idea what the fuck you got from my post that inspired this overly long tirade but okay.
> 
> As for proof, the DCU stretches 100 trillion light years from Earth according to Adam Strange which is its radius. Endless Mike actually did a calc about that on his blog to get the yield of Imperiex's Big Bang.


*Shrugs* You got the explanation,you needed for this stuff, it was me talking to everyone. I just didn't bother to quote everyone. Anyway.

Does that mean the universe is larger or smaller than DB's?


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

You are misinterpreting my point because when I read the initial claim your making it sound like Hit is low multiversal because of their universe that's all


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

It's a macrocosm. I don't know if that should mean it is Multi-Universal or not, but Universe+ makes people think they can only completely annihilate a universe, when in fact they are annihilating three. That's all. Whether or not Hit can destroy a universe is irrelevant. The fact remains, he is a rival and has even KILLED Goku who was completely on his guard with esoteric assassination techniques. He has harmed him and Vegeta with ease, there's nothing to state he does not have this firepower, but his techniques aren't about destruction, they are about the potential to kill. The invisible shockwave can only be sensed by someone who has mastered use of their ki to a certain extent (as seen by Goku), and even then it was a very fast and dangerous attack he barely evaded or shrugged off the second time it was used on him (Goku learns very quickly in combat. He knew how to predict Hit's attack in the Universe 6 vs 7 Arc by watching Vegeta fight Hit).

He has the potential to destroy a universe just the same as Goku and Vegeta.


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## Agent9149 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I've heard it was 10 times the size of the IRL universe but I may be wrong about that. That's the impression I got while debating in Pre-Crisis Supes vs Hit.



I've heard other measurements too.

I wonder if there is ever an official size?


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## Unlucky13 (Jan 26, 2017)

Was the version of Flash ever specified? Composite Flash seems like complete overkill so I'm guessing it's Post or New52 at the very least.

Also, now I know what this thread reminds me of.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> Yes it did: "A surge of Power and Speed that will make me faster than normal"
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


what you think Flash need to amp himself to fight Zoom extreme lite?


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

I don't know what's so funny. I'm still waiting for that progress report on the size differences between DB's Macrocosm and DC-1 Universe, too.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I don't know what's so funny. I'm still waiting for that progress report on the size differences between DB's Macrocosm and DC-1 Universe, too.


 It has all the relevant scans and even a calc for the Big Bang that created the DCU.

Correct me here but the DB Macrocosm is 3 universes in one correct? So that would mean that the DB Macrocosm is 282 billion light years in diameter which is smaller than the DCU at 200 trillion light years in diameter.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Depends on where you got the calc for DB's Macrocosm from.


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## God Movement (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Depends on where you got the calc for DB's Macrocosm from.



What do you mean?

The living world is the bottom half. Roughly the same size as the top half. 2x a universe's volume + Kaioshin Realm maybe 2.1x a universe, not sure where you get anything else besides that.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

God Movement said:


> It's not so much that it's 10x the volume of the universe. It isn't. But you need an explosion which encompasses 10x a universal volume to get rid of everything. Actual DC wise (what they were going to destroy) considering the actual _content_ it should be 2x universal size + some change (Kaioshin Realm).


Heaven (Kai) is as large as the Mortal Realm itself. Mortal Realm is still as expansive as the known universe (ours). Makai is the reverse of our universe. Is that all that was calculated in that post? If so then I'll give the win to Flash.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

God Movement said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> The living world is the bottom half. Roughly the same size as the top half. 2x a universe's volume + Kaioshin Realm maybe 2.1x a universe, not sure where you get anything else besides that.


Got it from the guide book. -


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## Blαck (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> But that's not time stop. That's his reactions being so fast that time slows to such a thing that "crawl" isn't the right word for how fast he can move. Hit's ability is based on a power that actually affects time, one of Barry's Key weaknesses I might add, as Zoom is literally his strongest foe due to having the ability to always be "faster" than Barry thanks to the constant manipulation of his own personal time.
> 
> .


Barry can manipulate his own timeline now so timefuckery  (or at least zooms) doesn't work on him as of late.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

God Movement said:


> I'm not understanding you.
> 
> 
> 
> This the globe. The top half (Other World), slightly bigger than the bottom now I'm looking at it. The bottom half (Living World). Is it confirmed that Makai is a complete mirror of regular universe? If so, why does it look so small on the map?


Toriyama made it like that so it'd be understood better though. The Makai is still a universe in itself, it's basically the antithesis of the known universe, So while it's considered the... Hold up. 



If I'm wrong than I am wrong. But, it's heavily implied that the Makai is a reverse universe.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Ok found what I was looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> It's small.


You're reading the wrong things, GM.

- _The Demon Realm is the lower half of the living world, a dimension that exists on the reverse side of the universe. It’s not to be confused with Hell, which exists in the afterlife. According to Daizenshuu 7, it’s a chaotic place where magic has more influence than science. The Kaio/shin themselves don’t really understand the Demon Realm, as not even the gods’ eyes can reach it. As a result, not much is known about it other then that it is the home of evil life-forms. Records still survive of these life-forms interfering with the peace of the universe’s planets. In fact, one of the factors in the nations of the DB Earth unifying into a single world state was to guard against this threat from the Demon Realm. 

*Like the universe with its division between the four cardinal directions, the Demon Realm is divided into several different spatial areas, though it’s unknown how many there are or what these divisions are based on.* Either way, all these areas are unified under the rule of Dabra, the king of the Demon Realm and far and away its strongest resident, according to Kaioshin. Or at least they were, until Dabra was brainwashed by the wizard Babidi into becoming his servant. Dabra’s been working for Babidi for at least the last 300 years, and it’s not known who if anyone has taken control of the Demon Realm in Dabra’s absence._


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

God Movement said:


> But the two statements aren't mutually exclusive. It can be small and still be split in four cardinal directions. The quote I got were from Toriyama's actual mouth.


Just as you stated, however. Just because it's a hideout does not mean that it isn't a comparable dimension in itself.

How to explain this... The "Mages" live in that place, but it does not mean that place is not a different dimension. He was stating that that's where the magicians lived, in a world of nothingness. And also, everything is inside the macrocosm, which Toriyama considers "the universe".


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## God Movement (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Just as you stated, however. Just because it's a hideout does not mean that it isn't a comparable dimension in itself.



I mean, he said the scale is small, and it's drawn pretty small, so until we see it I'm going to have to assume it's small. No real issue, he's pretty straightforward with stuff which is why when people try to discredit the size of Other World it grates on my nerves.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

God Movement said:


> I mean, he said the scale is small, and it's drawn pretty small, so until we see it I'm going to have to assume it's small. No real issue, he's pretty straightforward with stuff which is why when people try to discredit the size of Other World it grates on my nerves.


Alright, I can deal with that considering we've never actually seen the Demon Realm. But it's still 2x's the size of a "normal" universe though due to Heaven being stated as comparable to the mortal realm.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Barry can manipulate his own timeline now so timefuckery  (or at least zooms) doesn't work on him as of late.


That won't last long. xD

But yeah, if that's the case for the sizes than Flash wins.


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## Blαck (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> That won't last long. xD



I know, good ol' dc gonna retcon it the first chance they get

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> The Flash is a trickry herald where DC doesn't matter to him. It's mostly is your hax better and superior to his and are you fast enough to use it.



Anything that is Herald level and that relies on physical abilities alone is gonna get it's shit pushed by the Flash rather easily, you'd need something from the tier above, like having conceptual existence, or conceptual attacks in order to fuck Flash properly.



xenos5 said:


> However Hit may be able to tag Flash with one of his shockwave attacks as Flash has no way of sensing them or seeing



The moment Flash feels the vibration of the shockwave he'll just vibrate through(Getting intangible). It happened once with a bullet that had been shot at his back and he felt it touching his neck, but before it did any damage, he didn't vibrate through though, but he could.



Supersentaiguy said:


> So flash is unbeatable and can solo everyone on JLA?



Nope, he can solo the main trinity(Superman, Batman and Wondy) at most incarnations and most of the JLA, but some of them outhax him(As noted already, Fate and Zatanna are two good places to start).



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yeah, the Flash is going to be doing this, while also punching him with vibrating fist that rapidly accelerates the molecules it comes in contact with, vibrating through hit's molecular structure until large chunks of him explode..and he'll be doing this at a level of speed that Hit will be helpless against.a statue towards



To be sincere, I doubt that the vibration has the energy to rip a universe level durability appart, it's hax but not that much, the vibrate through should only have the energy output that he deals with other abilities, like an IMP, so pretty much solar to solar system level(Albeit very focused on some molecules).



shade0180 said:


> Superspeed (Multiple times faster than FTL)
> Speed Steal. (Planetary range)
> Time/Space/Dimension/universe hopping - He can do it multiple ways (Via Vibration, running or with some of his gadget)
> Pseudo-Omnipresence - as large as a city
> ...



Adding: can vibrate so telepaths can't reach him, can turn someone intangible back to tangible by vibrating at the same frequency as that person, can phase someone's brain/organs/etc out of their body, can match an earthquake-creating machine with real fast stomps(So, in theory, can create earthquakes), can vibrate to invisibility, has created suit out of speed force, can hit intangibles, can vibrate someone possessing him out, can escape fields that can match your Kinetic Energy, can create a cube that matches the kinectic energy of whatever touches and gives it back, effectively making super-strength useless in this cube, once MM and Superman used their heat vision on him to defeat other enemies(I forgot who), and Flash vibrated just low enough to give a boost to the heat vision, so he can also amplify radiation/eletromagnetic waves powers, can see in the future by making lots of scenarios in less than a second(And I mean a lot, to comparison he called the JLA slow because it could "only" do trillions of calculations in a second), with the last one I don't even have to say that he perceives the world around him as in super fucking uber mega slow motion, he has mid level regeneration, can share his speed so he can make someone else FTL or shit like that(In a celular level too, he can make the cells in a petri dish reproduce faster, pretty much what he makes with his own regeneration), negates Newton's third law, so he can hit people like Supes and doesn't have his hand destroyed in the process, or take wind to the face that would probably kill him, also the speed force gives him some dura, he can put someone inside the speed force effectively making a good BFR and I heard that in DC New 52 he can manipulate time in a whole new league even for him, I still got to actually read it, but it seems that his control over time(That is not really the focus of his abilities, it's speed/kinectic energy) has greatly increased.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> The moment Flash feels the vibration of the shockwave he'll just vibrate through(Getting intangible). It happened once with a bullet that had been shot at his back and he felt it touching his neck, but before it did any damage, he didn't vibrate through though, but he could.



The shockwave is intangible to start with so Flash also turning intangible would just make it tangible to him and he'd be killed by it.

EDIT: Again this doesn't matter due the whole perception shit giving Flash a ridiculous amount of prep which is the argument I conceded to but just saying him turning intangible wouldn't really counter the shockwave attacks.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> That won't last long. xD
> 
> But yeah, if that's the case for the sizes than Flash wins.



How did the whole universe size argument matter in relation to Flash to begin with? Flash hasn't blown up the DCU or damaged a character who tanked the destruction of the DCU or any shit like that.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Most of the abilities he is given are soon forgotten in series so that he doesn't get too hax for many of his and his comrades foes. If he could just see into the future and vibrate through anything, he should be able to defeat most opponents in series without much effort, but he doesn't so I'm still a skeptic on that shit. But otherwise he wins.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How did the whole universe size argument matter in relation to Flash to begin with? Flash hasn't blown up the DCU or damaged a character who tanked the destruction of the DCU or any shit like that.


It was in relation to Flash's overall speed. If the universe was smaller than the DB verse, Flash would be slower because the matter within the DB universe compared to the Big Bangs energy would have been smaller as the shockwaves between Beerus and Goku covered the macrocosm in "seconds", so he would not have a speed advantage over Hit. But after the revelation that the DC Universe is of a size far larger than the DBverse, that claim cannot be made.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The shockwave is intangible to start with so Flash also turning intangible would just make it tangible to him and he'd be killed by it.
> 
> EDIT: Again this doesn't matter due the whole perception shit giving Flash a ridiculous amount of prep which is the argument I conceded to but just saying him turning intangible wouldn't really counter the shockwave attacks.



I looked it up in the DBZ wikia(Granted, not very reliable, but if something's wrong, then just correct me):



> This attack is near-invisible and passes through matter thanks to it traveling through the Time-Storage world



This description says that the only way it's unnoticeable it is because it passes through his time storage world, pretty much a time stream ability, almost like the missiles in TTGLverse but less haxier, but in this description, vibrating after feeling the energy touch him would surely work, since even though it is a time based attack, if he's intangible the whole time he doesn't get hit.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The shockwave is intangible to start with so Flash also turning intangible would just make it tangible to him and he'd be killed by it.
> 
> EDIT: Again this doesn't matter due the whole perception shit giving Flash a ridiculous amount of prep which is the argument I conceded to but just saying him turning intangible wouldn't really counter the shockwave attacks.


I mean, what?

Both are intangible, so they both can touch each other?

Doesn't make sense. Flash vibrates his molecules to phase through objects. Unless Hit's blows work the same way, they aren't touching each other


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Ok.


Basically I tried to think outside the box for that. It didn't grant me victory.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

That was actually an argument I made awhile back in Hit vs Pre-Crisis Supes. We know Hit is unquantifiably above universe level but we have no idea if he can destroy the entirety of the DCU like PC Supes can since it's _much_ larger than the DBU.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

As I stated before, Universe+ isn't the best rating for these characters, if Pre-Crisis Supes is that much more powerful than the default universe, he should be scaled to whatever that comparable amount of energy and size would give him. That just makes sense to me.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Anything that is Herald level and that relies on physical abilities alone is gonna get it's shit pushed by the Flash rather easily, you'd need something from the tier above, like having conceptual existence, or conceptual attacks in order to fuck Flash properly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just a correction he is vibrating through his molecules


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I looked it up in the DBZ wikia(Granted, not very reliable, but if something's wrong, then just correct me):
> 
> This description says that the only way it's unnoticeable it is because it passes through his time storage world, pretty much a time stream ability, almost like the missiles in TTGLverse but less haxier, but in this description, vibrating after feeling the energy touch him would surely work, since even though it is a time based attack, if he's intangible the whole time he doesn't get hit.




1:32 to 1:59

It sounds like the shockwaves are just intangible and invisible. 

"vibrating after feeling the energy touch him would surely work"

He's not durable enough to sustain such an attack so him vibrating only after it would touch him would be too late. Even it just grazing SSB Goku by barely touching him hurt him (he was clearly in pain) and he's got universe level+ durability. 



Sir Jogga said:


> I mean, what?
> 
> Both are intangible, so they both can touch each other?
> 
> Doesn't make sense. Flash vibrates his molecules to phase through objects. Unless Hit's blows work the same way, they aren't touching each other



So you're trying to say it's a different type of intangibility than normal intangibility due to it being achieved through vibration? That actually sounds worse than normal intangibility as Flash's molecules still exist in the same place but are just vibrating (unlike normal intangibility where you're sort of out of phase with reality), wouldn't that mean you could just destroy his molecules? Or am I misunderstanding something?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> So you're trying to say it's a different type of intangibility than normal intangibility due to it being achieved through vibration? That actually sounds worse than normal intangibility as Flash's molecules still exist in the same place but are just vibrating (unlike normal intangibility where you're sort of out of phase with reality), wouldn't that mean you could just destroy his molecules? Or am I misunderstanding something?


Flash is able to vibrate his molecules into other universes and dimensions. It probably doesn't count for intangibility but it does show he has precise control over his molecules and can zero in on any frequency. So really if Flash feels an energy wave, he should be able to move his molecules to a frequency that Hit's shockwaves can't touch. I think that's what Jogga was getting at.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

he can become intangible by vibrating his molecules  at different frequencies dimension shifting out the way.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Flash is able to vibrate his molecules into other universes and dimensions. It probably doesn't count for intangibility but it does show he has precise control over his molecules and can zero in on any frequency. So really if Flash feels an energy wave, he should be able to move his molecules to a frequency that Hit's shockwaves can't touch. I think that's what Jogga was getting at.



But if Flash "feels" it, it would've had to have already hit him, right? It just seems like it would it be too late by that point as that means he would have to tank it for even a fraction of a second before his body automatically responds and vibrates to a certain frequency.


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## shade0180 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> he should be able to defeat most opponents in series without much effort, but he doesn't so I'm still a skeptic on that shit



Pretty sure there was an interview for that where the flash author relatively admit to nerf him because they can't write a story about flash just zipping through the whole comics and one punching the bad guys every issue.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

But really what would stop flash from draining the entire Kinetic energy within the area from the get go?


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Flash is able to vibrate his molecules into other universes and dimensions. It probably doesn't count for intangibility but it does show he has precise control over his molecules and can zero in on any frequency. So really if Flash feels an energy wave, he should be able to move his molecules to a frequency that Hit's shockwaves can't touch. I think that's what Jogga was getting at.


What a coincidence, Hit can vibrate his attack into another plane of existence as well.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> But if Flash "feels" it, it would've had to have already hit him, right? It just seems like it would it be too late by that point as that means he would have to tank it for even a fraction of a second before his body automatically responds and vibrates to a certain frequency.


The Flash can react quicker than a fraction of a second. He can react to moments within less than an attosecond. If he feels a tiny portion of that energy within that timeframe, I think he would be able to vibrate to another frequency that the shockwaves can't reach.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Pretty sure there was an interview for that where the flash author relatively admit to nerf him because they can't write a story about flash just zipping through the whole comics and one punching the bad guys every issue.


Yeah... bad writing usually does that to you...


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> So you're trying to say it's a different type of intangibility than normal intangibility due to it being achieved through vibration? That actually sounds worse than normal intangibility as Flash's molecules still exist in the same place but are just vibrating (unlike normal intangibility where you're sort of out of phase with reality), wouldn't that mean you could just destroy his molecules? Or am I misunderstanding something?


Mechanic is different, result is the same.

Kingdom Come Flash showed that he could be essentially be present in diffrent planes of reality at once, so no. It's actually better.

*Edit: Also, I still don't see what's the actual reasoning behind the fucking argument about how two intangibles can touch each other.

If both are compleatly intangible, neither would touch the other. Unless there is some inane argument that they both vibrate at the same frequency, a reasoning that hasn't been introduced in Super*


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The Flash can react quicker than a fraction of a second. He can react to moments within less than an attosecond. If he feels a tiny portion of that energy within that timeframe, I think he would be able to vibrate to another frequency that the shockwaves can't reach.


Considering how it works seemingly as a malignant energy, if you don't know how to control your ki well (like Goku can) you'd die thanks to its effects, The Flash has no comparable energy source to ki that I know of, so he has no way of actually deflecting said attack, and you don't want to "touch" it. And no, his ability to generate lightning is not a source to ki.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The Flash can react quicker than a fraction of a second. He can react to moments within less than an attosecond. *If he feels a tiny portion of that energy within that timeframe*, I think he would be able to vibrate to another frequency that the shockwaves can't reach.



Even the attack grazing SSB Goku hurt him despite his universe level+ durability. I don't see how Flash would be able to survive a tiny portion of the shockwave's energy touching him for any measure of time even one that small. For that automotic body response to happen he'd have to be able to survive that but I don't see how he'd be able to.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Let's not act like DBS isn't filled with bad writing


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Let's not act like DBS isn't filled with bad writing


DC has been around much longer than DB though, so it's like a big brother not learning from its mistakes when writing itself into a corner multiple times.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> What a coincidence, Hit can vibrate his attack into another plane of existence as well.


lol put a time stamp on that shit bro

There is nothing there about vibrating o another existence. Just hit transporting himself in and out


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> lol put a time stamp on that shit bro
> 
> There is nothing there about vibrating o another existence. Just hit transporting himself in and out


I placed it right where he was about to do it. Make sure you look at the subs as he does it because he was still in his Pocket Dimension while performing said technique, as shown when the scenery changed to it and showed the shockwave. He comments about it.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> DC has been around much longer than DB though, so it's like a big brother not learning from its mistakes when writing itself into a corner multiple times.


Oh jeez. Are we going with that DBZ tard argument?

Please, throwing stones in your glass house will not end well for you

Keep it professional


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I placed it right where he was about to do it. Make sure you look at the subs as he does it because he was still in his Pocket Dimension while performing said technique, as shown when the scenery changed to it and showed the shockwave. He comments about it.


Except he does nothing about _vibrating nor phasing
_
He just demonstrated to Goku that he can attack him from another dimension. That's just him transporting it from one to another, something we all already took into account


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Oh jeez. Are we going with that DBZ tard argument?
> 
> Please, throwing stones in your glass house will not end well for you
> 
> Keep it professional


No I'm just being honest there.

You would think that DC as a whole would learn how not to write themselves into a corner when they've been inpublication since the 1930's/1940's yet, they still do and often. DB does it too, but DC is supposed to be example, it's not supposed to take after a series like DB which started in the 80's.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Except he does nothing about _vibrating nor phasing
> _
> He just demonstrated to Goku that he can attack him from another dimension. That's just him transporting it from one to another, something we all already took into account


So you don't understand the context that he just attacked Goku from another dimension, I don't know how he's transporting something through another closed off dimension without it having to traverse through that dimension.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Considering how it works seemingly as a malignant energy, if you don't know how to control your ki well (like Goku can) you'd die thanks to its effects, The Flash has no comparable energy source to ki that I know of, so he has no way of actually deflecting said attack, and you don't want to "touch" it. And no, his ability to generate lightning is not a source to ki.


He's not really deflecting it so much as vibrating and entering into another frequency where the shockwaves can't affect him. Flash hasn't demonstrated deflecting energy to the best of my knowledge.


xenos5 said:


> Even the attack grazing SSB Goku hurt him despite his universe level+ durability. I don't see how Flash would be able to survive a tiny portion of the shockwave's energy touching him for any measure of time even one that small. For that automotic body response to happen he'd have to be able to survive that but I don't see how he'd be able to.


I would contest that a fraction of a universal+ attack is on the same scale of the full attack but I don't think that'll go much of anywhere because of how unquantifiably universal+ Hit is. The Flash doesn't really need to tank it, he can sense energy and frequencies and once he feels it, he'll vibrate through the attack in a different frequency.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No I'm just being honest there.
> 
> You would think that DC as a whole would learn how not to write themselves into a corner when they've been inpublication since the 1930's/1940's yet, they still do and often. DB does it too, but DC is supposed to be example, it's not supposed to take after a series like DB which started in the 80's.


DC has never been an _example_ of good continuity.

 It's not even a series

Its a comicbook company

That's like me criticizing Shueisha Inc


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> He's not really deflecting it so much as vibrating and entering into another frequency where the shockwaves can't affect him. Flash hasn't demonstrated deflecting energy to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> I would contest that a fraction of a universal+ attack is on the same scale of the full attack but I don't think that'll go much of anywhere because of how unquantifiably universal+ Hit is. The Flash doesn't really need to tank it, he can sense energy and frequencies and once he feels it, he'll vibrate through the attack in a different frequency.


Has he shown the ability to do that in the heat of battle? It's not like Hit is that slow in relation to him that he can just continuously test frequencies when the vibrations haven't even touched him yet, unless he has the ability to feel a vibration that makes no sound or movements, he'd still take the brunt of the attack on whatever body part he was hit.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No I'm just being honest there.
> 
> You would think that DC as a whole would learn how not to write themselves into a corner when they've been inpublication since the 1930's/1940's yet, they still do and often. DB does it too, but DC is supposed to be example, it's not supposed to take after a series like DB which started in the 80's.


I would rebut this but it's not going to be positive. Please, just drop it. I don't want to get into a pissing match between the varying quality of DC vs DB.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> DC has never been an _example_ of good continuity.
> 
> It's not even a series
> 
> ...


Sure OK.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> So you don't understand the context that he just attacked Goku from another dimension, I don't know how he's transporting something through another closed off dimension without it having to traverse through that dimension.


It's not about the transporting to another detention I am arguing.

It's the fact that you claim he's doing so by _vibrating _


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> It's not about the transporting to another detention I am arguing.
> 
> It's the fact that you claim he's doing so by _vibrating _


How else would it have gotten through the dimension. How would he transmit a blast of ki through another dimension, you would have to prove he can somehow teleport energy blasts conveniently because that has never been shown before. What it shows is him striking at one point while within his dimension and Goku takes said hit.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Has he shown the ability to do that in the heat of battle? It's not like Hit is that slow in relation to him that he can just continuously test frequencies when the vibrations haven't even touched him yet, unless he has the ability to feel a vibration that makes no sound or movements, he'd still take the brunt of the attack on whatever body part he was hit.


In the heat of battle? Of course he has. He can enter the Speed Force whenever he has to.

As for speed, I'm fairly certain it was decided awhile ago that Flash is _waaaaaaaay_ faster than Hit is. It's probably worse than PC Supes vs Hit and that was an insane speed gap between them.

Flash really doesn't need to test frequencies, he's familiar enough with them. Once he senses some energy coming for him, he'll vibrate to another frequency or another dimension and the shockwave won't reach him.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> In the heat of battle? Of course he has. He can enter the Speed Force whenever he has to.
> 
> As for speed, I'm fairly certain it was decided awhile ago that Flash is _waaaaaaaay_ faster than Hit is. It's probably worse than PC Supes vs Hit and that was an insane speed gap between them.
> 
> Flash really doesn't need to test frequencies, he's familiar enough with them. Once he senses some energy coming for him, he'll vibrate to another frequency or another dimension and the shockwave won't reach him.


Yet he can vibrate into Hit's dimension?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Yet he can vibrate into Hit's dimension?


If he catches onto the frequency of that dimension, he can, yes. KC Flash was able to reach into the Specter's dimension and pull Norman McCay out. Granted that was a much more powerful Flash but that isn't too far fetched for regular Flash to do.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> How else would it have gotten through the dimension. How would he transmit a blast of ki through another dimension, you would have to prove he can somehow teleport energy blasts conveniently because that has never been shown before. What it shows is him striking at one point while within his dimension and Goku takes said hit.


You are the one who claimed he did it by using Vibrations. Burden of proof is on you to actually prove it with evidence. You haven't even provided a statement.


Gomu said:


> Sure OK.


Ooooooh 

a passive aggressive remark to hide the fact that you couldn't come up with anything meaningful to say?

Oh boy...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Ooooooh
> 
> a passive aggressive remark to hide the fact that you couldn't come up with anything meaningful to say?
> 
> Oh boy...


Jogga, I love you dude but just leave it there, okay?


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> If he catches onto the frequency of that dimension, he can, yes. KC Flash was able to reach into the Specter's dimension and pull Norman McCay out. Granted that was a much more powerful Flash but that isn't too far fetched for regular Flash to do.


KC Flash could do it casually, without even trying he spotted the fucker.

A Wally West that committed the actual effort could do it, most likely.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> *KC Flash could do it casually, without even trying he spotted the fucker.*
> 
> A Wally West that committed the actual effort could do it, most likely.


I wonder if it's because of his senses or his dramatically higher speed 

I mean, the fact he was able to spot him in that dimension somehow is pretty insane. I remember reading a statement from Alex Ross in his designer notes that KC Flash is "constantly stepping into other realities and dimensions" or something to that effect.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Jogga, I love you dude but just leave it there, okay?


Noted.

No worries at all

Also Blakk Jakk, I never knew you you loved me like that


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I wonder if it's because of his senses or his dramatically higher speed
> 
> I mean, the fact he was able to spot him in that dimension somehow is pretty insane. I remember reading a statement from Alex Ross in his designer notes that KC Flash is "constantly stepping into other realities and dimensions" or something to that effect.


He's always moving, even while seeming to stand still.

That's why he's always a red blur

He's The Flash without a day off, so to speak


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> He's not really deflecting it so much as vibrating and entering into another frequency where the shockwaves can't affect him. Flash hasn't demonstrated deflecting energy to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> I would contest that a fraction of a universal+ attack is on the same scale of the full attack but I don't think that'll go much of anywhere because of how unquantifiably universal+ Hit is. The Flash doesn't really need to tank it, he can sense energy and frequencies and once he feels it, he'll vibrate through the attack in a different frequency.



Goku can sense energy but was unable to sense the shockwave coming when Hit first used it on him. It took absolute concentration and even then he only barely dodged it with the second shockwave. So my point remains that if Flash feels the attack it would only be when it's already touching him as it wouldn't trigger any of his senses otherwise. Kind of the perfect surprise attack in that sense.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Noted.
> 
> No worries at all
> 
> Also Blakk Jakk, I never knew you you loved me like that


I'm a drunkard so I tend to say that a lot.

Usually when someone says "love" and it doesn't sound romantic, chances are they're fucking hammered.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> You are the one who claimed he did it by using Vibrations. Burden of proof is on you to actually prove it with evidence. You haven't even provided a statement.
> 
> Ooooooh
> 
> ...


He just did it. He literally attacked Goku through his own dimension. There was nothing to indicate he transported anywhere, you were the one stating he did. He fires the blast and it hits Goku. He was still in his dimension, I don't know how clear those words and that scene could be.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Goku can sense energy but was unable to sense the shockwave coming when Hit first used it on him. It took absolute concentration and even then he only barely dodged it with the second shockwave. So my point remains that if Flash feels the attack it would only be when it's already touching him as it wouldn't trigger any of his senses otherwise. Kind of the perfect surprise attack in that sense.


Considering he's the best assassin in the multiverse, it makes a shit ton of sense.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> He's always moving, even while seeming to stand still.
> 
> That's why he's always a red blur
> 
> He's The Flash without a day off, so to speak


That much is clear but was he in the Specter's dimension or did he just sense Norman McCay? From what I recall, it seemed like he sensed him and then pulled him out of that dimension.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> He just did it. He literally attacked Goku through his own dimension. There was nothing to dictate he transported anywhere, you were the one stating he did. He fires the blast and it hits Goku. He was still in his dimension, I don't know how clear those words and that scene could be.


Again, I'm not denying that he can Hit people from his own dimension. I very much stated so.

The problem here is that you claimed he was doing it by *vibrating.
*
Something I've been addressing and you've been ignoring


Gomu said:


> What a coincidence, *Hit can vibrate his attack into another plane of existence as well. *


EVIDENCE, dude...


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Goku can sense energy but was unable to sense the shockwave coming when Hit first used it on him. It took absolute concentration and even then he only barely dodged it with the second shockwave. So my point remains that if Flash feels the attack it would only be when it's already touching him as it wouldn't trigger any of his senses otherwise. Kind of the perfect surprise attack in that sense.


Flash has sensed the Black Flash IIRC and nobody else could except for the other Speedsters. Black Flash is invisible with the exception of Speedsters. So invisible energy really ought not be a problem for him to sense. @Sir Jogga can probably recall that better than I can.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> That much is clear but was he in the Specter's dimension or did he just sense Norman McCay? From what I recall, it seemed like he sensed him and then pulled him out of that dimension.


I recall you stating that Alex Ross stated the former


xenos5 said:


> Goku can sense energy but was unable to sense the shockwave coming when Hit first used it on him. It took absolute concentration and even then he only barely dodged it with the second shockwave. So my point remains that if Flash feels the attack it would only be when it's already touching him as it wouldn't trigger any of his senses otherwise. Kind of the perfect surprise attack in that sense.


Goku needed to make his senses more precise to sense Hit's attacks, in short.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> I recall you stating that Alex Ross stated the former


I meant just how his speed works. Flash is so fast that he can vibrate into other realities and dimensions but the scene seems to suggest that he sensed Norman McCay and pulled him out unless a piece of him was vibrating in that dimension.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Jan 26, 2017)

How in the hell this thread still open when the general consensus was made by the 2 page?


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Again, I'm not denying that he can Hit people from his own dimension. I very much stated so.
> 
> The problem here is that you claimed he was doing it by *vibrating.
> *
> ...


OK, listen to this. Hit is attacking from his pocket universe. The attack is traveling through the universe. There is nothing IMPLYING that it is teleporting to where Goku is. There is nothing implying that it is not traveling through the Pocket universe as we see the shockwave travel at the side and we see Goku fling through the air as soon as he fires it. OBVIOUSLY the shockwave which has the ability to vibrate through Goku's body, is shown to be vibrating. In the first USE of the technique against Goku we see the stream of the invisible ki blast go STRAIGHT THROUGH Goku's body. Hit states "you will feel no pain". Said technique went STRAIGHT THROUGH Goku's body only hitting his heart and NOTHING MORE in his body. It does not rip his clothing or cause any blood vessels to burst. We can surmise that it VIBRATES THROUGH Goku's body and that the attack has at least SOME TIDBIT to do with high-speed vibrations.

Ya following...?


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Flash has sensed the Black Flash IIRC and nobody else could *except for the other Speedsters.* Black Flash is invisible with the exception of Speedsters. So invisible energy really ought not be a problem for him to sense. @Sir Jogga can probably recall that better than I can.



Just sounds like Black Flash runs on some specific type of energy more attuned to the speed force.  

Goku not being able to sense Hit's shockwave initially is a bit more impressive as he can sense energy undectable to normal ki users (god ki) due to having god ki of his own.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> How in the hell this thread still open when the general consensus was made by the 2 page?



Just because I conceded Flash wins doesn't mean I can't have a little fun discussing a hypothetical that tests how the abilities of both characters would counteract each other (If Flash would be able to counter Hit's shockwave)

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 26, 2017)

Hit can't vibrate shit. He just transfers his body into a parralel dimension. Anything more than that would be pointless speculation and wishfull thinking. Unless it's actually stated in the manga or anime that Hit can pull shit like vibrating off... it's never gonna fly.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Goku needed to make his senses more precise to sense Hit's attacks, in short.



Yup. I don't see how Flash's automatic energy sensing would be as good as Goku's energy sensing when he's concentrating fully (closing his eyes and trying to visualize the energy around him).


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Hit can't vibrate shit. He just transfers his body into a parralel dimension. Anything more than that would be pointless speculation and wishfull thinking. Unless it's actually stated in the manga or anime that Hit can pull shit like vibrating off... it's never gonna fly.


It has already happened. Hit uses it to vibrate through a tree without disturbing the trees matter so it can go after Goku silently. Then there's the fact that it's first use against Goku we see it going right through his chest. We can also assume that it can go through at the very least HIS own Pocket-verse.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> OK, listen to this. Hit is attacking from his pocket universe. The attack is traveling through the universe. There is nothing IMPLYING that it is teleporting to where Goku is. There is nothing implying that it is not traveling through the Pocket universe as we see the shockwave travel at the side and we see Goku fling through the air as soon as he fires it. OBVIOUSLY the shockwave which has the ability to vibrate through Goku's body, is shown to be vibrating. In the first USE of the technique against Goku we see the stream of the invisible ki blast go STRAIGHT THROUGH Goku's body. Hit states "you will feel no pain". Said technique went STRAIGHT THROUGH Goku's body only hitting his heart and NOTHING MORE in his body. It does not rip his clothing or cause any blood vessels to burst. We can surmise that it VIBRATES THROUGH Goku's body and that the attack has at least SOME TIDBIT to do with high-speed vibrations.
> 
> Ya following...?


Wall of Text makes it difficult. Let me straighten that out for you.


Gomu said:


> OK, listen to this.


Uh huh


Gomu said:


> The attack is traveling through the universe.


Lol wtf


Gomu said:


> There is nothing IMPLYING that it is teleporting to where Goku is.


Bull...


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## Blocky (Jan 26, 2017)

Can this thread just die already?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It has already happened. Hit uses it to vibrate through a tree without disturbing the trees matter so it can go after Goku silently. Then there's the fact that it's first use against Goku we see it going right through his chest. We can also assume that it can go through at the very least HIS own Pocket-verse.


Phasing through a tree doesn't make it vibrating.

Martian Manhunter can phase by himself without vibrating at all


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It has already happened. Hit uses it to vibrate through a tree without disturbing the trees matter so it can go after Goku silently. Then there's the fact that it's first use against Goku we see it going right through his chest. We can also assume that it can go through at the very least HIS own Pocket-verse.


No, we can't assume shit. For this kind of statement you need to bring solid proof to the table. Otherwise you are just giving Hit an incredibly haxxed ability that  he dosen't have.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> OBVIOUSLY the shockwave which has the ability to vibrate through Goku's body, is shown to be vibrating.


Based on what?

All you've said is that it phased through a tree and Goku's body

A trick that doesn't require, nor demonstrate, any actual vibrating.

Where is the evidence?


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Yup. I don't see how Flash's automatic energy sensing would be as good as Goku's energy sensing when he's concentrating fully (closing his eyes and trying to visualize the energy around him).


Because he's done it too?

What makes Goku's sensing superior exactly?

Especially when Flash delt with Faster energy signatures?


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Phasing through a tree doesn't make it vibrating.
> 
> Martian Manhunter can phase by himself without vibrating at all


Bare with me, I know this is from Super Power wikia, but you just said phasing/intangibility has nothing to do with vibrating your molecules, and that's a load of bullshit.


 - All the characters that are known for phasing usually control their molecules so that they can do so via vibration. 

Those that cannot phase through by controlling their molecules instead go through another dimension or change their molecules to the frequency of that dimension and then change them back to said frequency later on without vibration. So which is Hit's ability then, because form what I'm seeing and the impact it makes after a certain period of time, it's vibrations.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Bare with me, I know this is from Super Power wikia, but you just said phasing/intangibility has nothing to do with vibrating your molecules, and that's a load of bullshit.
> 
> 
> - All the characters that are known for phasing usually control their molecules so that they can do so via vibration.
> ...




Twice the attacks connect after missing their targets they cause the structures they hit to fall apart more so than just a big explosion than ki blasts. For example, Goku deflect's Hit's attack and it still causes the cliff below him to shatter.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Bare with me, I know this is from Super Power wikia, but you just said phasing/intangibility has nothing to do with vibrating your molecules, and that's a load of bullshit.
> 
> 
> - *All the characters that are known for phasing usually control their molecules so that they can do so via vibration.*
> ...


Kek


> .  User is able to move through objects and ignore most physical effects in their way, *exact means how this is done vary between slipping partially into other dimensions, being able to make their own particles move between other particles, being non-physical being of energy, vibrating their molecules into a new quantum frequency, *etc. Regardless the user is able to ignore most attacks, physical dangers and gravity.


Even your link contradicts you

There are multiple facets as to how one phases, and you just jump to vibrations despite Hit obviously fitting into the first example

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nep Heart (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Bare with me, I know this is from Super Power wikia, but you just said phasing/intangibility has nothing to do with vibrating your molecules, and that's a load of bullshit.
> 
> 
> - All the characters that are known for phasing usually control their molecules so that they can do so via vibration.
> ...



 Superpower wiki is not an authoritive fictional source, it's a loose guideline for ideas on superpowers mostly to give public inspiration. Therefore, it's far from the most valid defense in one's debate. I mean, we've got some examples of Suggsversal nonsense in that wiki for instance.

 Go by what is established in canon, not fanon speculation. By that logic, all characters in fiction who surpass the speed of light are harnessing the Speed Force, even those outside DC Comics. You can see how many places wrong that can go.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Just sounds like Black Flash runs on some specific type of energy more attuned to the speed force.
> 
> Goku not being able to sense Hit's shockwave initially is a bit more impressive as he can sense energy undectable to normal ki users (god ki) due to having god ki of his own.


Actually now that I recall, even other Speedsters had trouble spotting him. When Max Mercury and Jessie Quick first noticed the Black Flash, they couldn't see anything except some vague black smudge on a photograph and some shadow passing by Wally after it missed him and went after Linda. They were only able to see him when time was stopped.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Because he's done it too?



Scan of this?



Sir Jogga said:


> What makes Goku's sensing superior exactly?



The range of his sensing is extremely far as he's able to use IT to get to and from Beerus's realm which is galaxies apart from his own. And he's now able to sense energy that can't be sensed by normal ki users (god ki).



Sir Jogga said:


> Especially when Flash delt with Faster energy signatures?



I don't think the speed of energy sensing is the best measure of its potency. The range and degree of power that can be sensed should be a better indication.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Kek
> 
> Even your link contradicts you
> 
> There are multiple facets as to how one phases, and you just jump to vibrations despite Hit obviously fitting into the first example


Yeah you can do your little thing to make yourself seem smarter than you actually are. For everyone else that's been watching. Hit is attuning his ki blasts vibrations to a frequency that they can go through matter until a certain point.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Superpower wiki is not an authoritive fictional source, it's a loose guideline for ideas on superpowers mostly to give public inspiration. Therefore, it's far from the most valid defense in one's debate. I mean, we've got some examples of Suggsversal nonsense in that wiki for instance.
> 
> Go by what is established in canon, not fanon speculation. By that logic, all characters in fiction who surpass the speed of light are harnessing the Speed Force, even those outside DC Comics. You can see how many places wrong that can go.


I said that already, which is why I used the second one to show characters that also have the ability to go "intangible" the usual powers are associated with vibrating ones molecules at a higher or lower frequency when it happens. For this instance, Hit uses said blast, it goes through matter when first shot and at a certain point it returns to a "normal" ki blast, except that instead of causing an explosion it seems to break apart to molecules of which it hits, as their doesn't seem to be any crushing force behind Hit's ki blasts as even in the first use against Goku he states "you won't feel anything".


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Yeah you can do your little thing to make yourself seem smarter than you actually are. For everyone else that's been watching. Hit is attuning his ki blasts vibrations to a frequency that they can go through matter until a certain point.


You still have no evidence. Ampchu just explained why your sources don't work


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> You still have no evidence. Ampchu just explained why your sources don't work


Yeah because watching a video directly where I stopped right before the attacks happen is too damn difficult.



Gomu said:


> I said that already, which is why I used the second one to show characters that also have the ability to go "intangible" the usual powers are associated with vibrating ones molecules at a higher or lower frequency when it happens. For this instance, Hit uses said blast, it goes through matter when first shot and at a certain point it returns to a "normal" ki blast, except that instead of causing an explosion it seems to break apart to molecules of which it hits, as their doesn't seem to be any crushing force behind Hit's ki blasts as even in the first use against Goku he states "you won't feel anything".



I've already explained why I have what I have. The attacks have shown going through various objects, and when they hit something other than their target they do not cause the same type of destruction as a ki blast, which is an explosion. They instead cause what appears to be matter literally breaking itself apart.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The range of his sensing is extremely far as he's able to use IT to get to and from Beerus's realm which is galaxies apart from his own. *And he's now able to sense energy that can't be sensed by normal ki users now (god ki).*


Because he *also *has God Ki, dude

Although I got nothing on the whole traveling through Galaxies bit. 


Gomu said:


> Yeah you can do your little thing to make yourself seem smarter than you actually are. For everyone else that's been watching. Hit is attuning his ki blasts vibrations to a frequency that they can go through matter until a certain point.


You are the one that jumps immediately to vibrations, despite the fact that there are multiple tangents in which Hit's ability falls on. This is just guess work from you. There is no actual evidence.


Gomu said:


> Yeah because watching a video directly where I stopped right before the attacks happen is too damn difficult.
> 
> I've already explained why I have what I have. The attacks have shown going through various objects, and when they hit something other than their target they do not cause the same type as destruction as a ki blast, which is an explosion. They instead cause what appears to be matter literally breaking itself apart.


Like this^^^^^

Literally nothing here implies the work of phasing through dimensions by the usage of Vibrations

You're delusional if you think people are going to just jump to that conclusion


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Because he *also *has God Ki, dude
> 
> Although I got nothing on the whole traveling through Galaxies bit.
> 
> ...


Didn't I just say that the thing that could be happening is that Hit can attune HIS ki blasts frequency to his dimension so that they can travel through it? As we saw in the final attack of Goku, Hit's dimension broke. This could mean that he can manipulate that frequency so that it goes directly to the actual universe. And it's not that far-fetched because once again, the blasts are intangible until a certain point.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Didn't I just say that the thing that could be happening is that Hit can attune HIS ki blasts *frequency* to his dimension so that they can travel through it? As we saw in the final attack of Goku, Hit's dimension broke. This could mean that he can manipulate that *frequency* so that it goes directly to the actual universe. And it's not that far-fetched because once again, the blasts are intangible until a certain point.


Again.

There is no actual evidence that he's using Vibrations 

No statements, not word of God...

Just you jumping the gun

Reactions: Agree 3


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Because he *also *has God Ki, dude



If you can't sense god ki without having god ki doesn't that imply having god ki gives you a much higher level of energy sensing than normal ki can? 



Sir Jogga said:


> Although I got nothing on the whole traveling through Galaxies bit.Q



Alright. So does that mean you concede that Goku has better energy sensing than Flash? And since Goku's regular energy sensing wasn't enough to detect Hit's shockwave but energy sensing while he's closing his eyes and concentrating completely Flash shouldn't be able to sense Hit's shockwaves?


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Again.
> 
> There is no actual evidence that he's using Vibrations
> 
> ...


Nah, i think Hit acidentaly tapped into the Speed-Force and used it against Goku without realizing it

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> If you can't sense god ki without having god ki doesn't that imply having god ki gives you a much higher level of energy sensing than normal ki can?
> 
> Alright. So does that mean you concede that Goku has better energy sensing than Flash? And since Goku's regular energy sensing wasn't enough to detect Hit's shockwave but energy sensing while he's closing his eyes and concentrating completely Flash shouldn't be able to sense Hit's shockwaves?


I think Jogga was trying to flip the God Ki is better senses thing on its head when Flash could do it with an invisible Speedster that is extremely difficult to see even for other Speedsters. God Ki sensing shouldn't be any better than a Speedster having to sense for an invisible speeding embodiment of death.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Again.
> 
> There is no actual evidence that he's using Vibrations
> 
> ...


You really think after all this time, that the tam behind Dragon Ball is gonna give information on the mechanics of a technique.

Showing more evidence than you btw on how the Flash can just, if he doesn't just go into another dimension (i.e. he does not know the effects of Hit's technique), get hit by it yet still be OK after.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You really think after all this time, that the tam behind Dragon Ball is gonna give information on the mechanics of a technique.
> 
> Showing more evidence than you btw on how the Flash can just, if he doesn't just go into another dimension (i.e. he does not know the effects of Hit's technique), get hit by it yet still be OK after.


Well considering Alex Ross took the time to detail how KC Flash's speed and phasing works, yeah, it's not an unreasonable thing to ask for a statement from Toriyama or Toei or Toyotaro.

Also, we mentioned the Norman McCay incident as something KC Flash did casually.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I think Jogga was trying to flip the God Ki is better senses thing on its head when Flash could do it with an invisible Speedster that is extremely difficult to see even for other Speedsters. God Ki sensing shouldn't be any better than a Speedster having to sense for an invisible speeding embodiment of death.



Alright so God Ki equals out to that feat but Goku's energy sensing should still have better potency than Flash's overall due to the range feats it's shown. That about right?


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Alright so God Ki equals out to that feat but Goku's energy sensing should still have better potency than Flash's overall due to the range feats it's shown. That about right?


Goku's particular sense in ki is better than Flash's unless Flash learned how to control ki somehow. Just as Goku would not be able to sense a Speed Force wielder.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Well considering Alex Ross took the time to detail how KC Flash's speed and phasing works, yeah, it's not an unreasonable thing to ask for a statement from Toriyama or Toei or Toyotaro.
> 
> Also, we mentioned the Norman McCay incident as something KC Flash did casually.


I've been so bent out of trying to explain my reasoning behind the shockwave I don't know what that is sorry @Blakk Jakk


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Goku's particular sense in ki is better than Flash's unless Flash learned how to control ki somehow. Just as Goku would not be able to sense a Speed Force wielder.



Don't we do some level of equalization for energy in the OBD? ki=chi=haki=nen=life force? If Flash is a living being he should have a life force that can be sensed so even though Goku wouldn't be able to sense the speed force he would be able to sense the life force Flash has as it would essentially be the same as untrained ki.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I've been so bent out of trying to explain my reasoning behind the shockwave I don't know what that is sorry @Blakk Jakk


No worries. I was responding to the "you think Toei would detail an ability" thing as well as mentioning an incident in Kingdom Come where a much stronger Flash was able to pull Norman McCay out of the Spectre's dimension.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> If you can't sense god ki without having god ki doesn't that imply having god ki gives you a much higher level of energy sensing than normal ki can?
> 
> 
> 
> Alright. So does that mean you concede that Goku has better energy sensing than Flash? And since Goku's regular energy sensing wasn't enough to detect Hit's shockwave but energy sensing while he's closing his eyes and concentrating completely Flash shouldn't be able to sense Hit's shockwaves?


Mostly only God Ki users being able to sense other God Ki users seems to be something of a rule between the two, rather than a difference in their skill in sensing.

Well I'd argue that range wouldn't mean that he's better than Flash, per say. But I would agree that it definitely helps if that's any consolation.


Blakk Jakk said:


> I think Jogga was trying to flip the God Ki is better senses thing on its head when Flash could do it with an invisible Speedster that is extremely difficult to see even for other Speedsters. God Ki sensing shouldn't be any better than a Speedster having to sense for an invisible speeding embodiment of death.


Nah bro. That's just you.

Better argument than mine.


Gomu said:


> *You really think after all this time, that the tam behind Dragon Ball is gonna give information on the mechanics of a technique.*
> 
> Showing more evidence than you btw on how the Flash can just, if he doesn't just go into another dimension (i.e. he does not know the effects of Hit's technique), get hit by it yet still be OK after.


Fucking _*Vados*_ did just that for you

And never once did she mention anything about Vibrations or Frequency.

And don't give me that, when it's already been established since Page 1 that that's a natural thing that Flash has been able to do.

The evidence is already there for Flash.

It's all about your extraordinary evidence to your extraordinary claim.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Mostly only God Ki users being able to sense other God Ki users seems to be something of a rule se Perrin get the two, rather than a difference in their skill in sensing.
> 
> Well I'd argue that range wouldn't mean that he's better than Flash, per say. But I would agree that it definitely helps if that's any consolation.
> 
> ...


No she only explained how the time skip and dimension hoping worked. She never explained how the ki blasts worked and probably won't in the near future because more important shit is about to happen unless Hit gets a new ability again.


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## bitethedust (Jan 26, 2017)

What's even happening in this thread


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Don't we do some level of equalization for energy in the OBD? ki=chi=haki=nen=life force? If Flash is a living being he should have a life force that can be sensed so even though Goku wouldn't be able to sense the speed force he would be able to sense the life force Flash has as it would essentially be the same as untrained ki.


Ki is a different ability from the Speed Force, that's only if the abilities are remotely similar that we equalize them. Ki can become mana, mana can become hit points, etc.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

bitethedust said:


> What's even happening in this thread


Lots and lots of stuff about vibrations...

...that'll sound naughty outta context won't it?


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No she only explained how the time skip and dimension hoping worked. She never explained how the ki blasts worked and probably won't in the near future because more important shit is about to happen unless Hit gets a new ability again.


Not the point.

You claimed that the staff would never explain the mechanisms of *a *technique, despite Vados doing just that, repeatedly 

And let's not ignore the fact that you are the one that is just straight up with jumping to the conclusion of vibration, despite no evidence to it


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Not the point.
> 
> You claimed that the staff would never explain the mechanisms of *a *technique, despite Vados doing just that, repeatedly
> 
> And let's not ignore the fact that you are the one that is just straight up with jumping to the conclusion of vibration, despite no evidence to it


I still believe it's vibrations, it has all the showing in my eyes. So it's cool if ya don't. But it's probably not going to be explained.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Mostly only God Ki users being able to sense other God Ki users seems to be something of a rule se Perrin get the two, rather than a difference in their skill in sensing.
> 
> Well I'd argue that range wouldn't mean that he's better than Flash, per say. But I would agree that it definitely helps if that's any consolation.



It is pretty hard to determine who has better energy sensing between two characters as feats of energy sensing in a series are usually sparse. Range, the amount of different energies a character can sense, the largest or smallest energy signature a character can sense are the only ways I can really think of comparing them. 

If you don't think Goku's energy sensing having much larger range is enough to say it's better than Flash's which other measurement would it have to be better in to definitely have better potency than Flash's do you think?


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Ki is a different ability from the Speed Force, that's only if the abilities are remotely similar that we equalize them. Ki can become mana, mana can become hit points, etc.



I'm not at all saying that the speed force should be equalized with ki. I'm saying that Flash is a living being so he has life force separate from the speed force and that is what would equate to ki.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> It is pretty hard to determine who has better energy sensing between two characters as feats of energy sensing in a series are usually sparse. Range, the amount of different energies a character can sense, the largest or smallest energy signature a character can sense are the only ways I can really think of comparing them.
> 
> If you don't think Goku's energy sensing having much larger range is enough to say it's better than Flash's which other measurement would it have to be better in to definitely have better potency than Flash's do you think?


Goku can sense from the other side of the universe with his ki, from Beerus' planet to earth for instant transmission and before that sense New Namek after figuring out the direction which it was in.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'm not at all saying that the speed force should be equalized with ki. I'm saying that Flash is a living being so he has life force separate from the speed force and that is what would equate to ki.


All living beings have ki, so that should be right. There are characters in DC that use their qi/chi/ki unless stated otherwise everything has a life force and that's what ki is.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> If you don't think Goku's energy sensing having much larger range is enough to say it's better than Flash's which other measurement would it have to be better in to definitely have better potency than Flash's do you think?


It's kind of one of those things where it seems like range doesn't equate to potency. 

But honestly I'm out of my tempo with this specific aspect of Flash's character. So I'll concede on those grounds either way.


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## bitethedust (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Lots and lots of stuff about vibrations...
> 
> ...that'll sound naughty outta context won't it?



People really need to keep their Hit-approved purple vibrators in check, this is getting ridiculous.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I still believe it's vibrations, it has all the showing in my eyes. So it's cool if ya don't. But it's probably not going to be explained.


If you just see it and don't provide any evidence, then no. I wouldn't really take your word, considering Hit's abilities lie in the first example of the site you posted, rather than the last one


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'm not at all saying that the speed force should be equalized with ki. I'm saying that Flash is a living being so he has life force separate from the speed force and that is what would equate to ki.


The Speed Force controls his soul which I feel may be grounds against him being sensed by Ki.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

bitethedust said:


> People really need to keep their Hit-approved purple vibrators in check, this is getting ridiculous.


Technically it's red

We are arguing wether or not the purple one can or not

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Then it's an opinion and we can agree to disagree whether I'm right or wrong until I can find a definitive answer to it.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The Speed Force controls his soul which I feel may be grounds against him being sensed by Ki.


Actually, it might imply that the Speed Force is some sort of spiritual energy, or atleast connect his to it, which would make it easier to sense


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The Speed Force controls his soul which I feel may be grounds against him being sensed by Ki.


Can't say that. Unless it was stated that his life force couldn't be sensed, it wouldn't matter.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then it's an opinion and we can agree to disagree whether I'm right or wrong until I can find a definitive answer to it.


No.

It's an opinion only resting on you. You can't find evidence? Not my problem


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Actually, it might imply that the Speed Force is some sort of spiritual energy, or atleast connect his to it, which would make it easier to sense


The Speed Force is made of pure kinetic energy and it encircles the multiverse as it governs all speed within the multiverse AFAIK. I don't think that would make it easier to sense.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> No.
> 
> It's an opinion only resting on you. You can't find evidence? Not my problem


I don't care if it's not your problem, that's what I'm saying.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The Speed Force is made of pure kinetic energy and it encircles the multiverse as it governs all speed within the multiverse AFAIK. I don't think that would make it easier to sense.


If Flash can sense the Speed Force, which is made of KE, wouldn't that imply he can sense Hit's KE too?

Or is that far fetched?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> If Flash can sense the Speed Force, which is made of KE, wouldn't that imply he can sense Hit's KE too?
> 
> Or is that far fetched?


Possibly. I mean, he has been able to sense other Speedsters because of their connection to the Speed Force IIRC.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> If Flash can sense the Speed Force, which is made of KE, wouldn't that imply he can sense Hit's KE too?
> 
> Or is that far fetched?


See this is what you call you having a theory that's far-fetched, Hit has absolutely nothing to do with the speed force, nothing. He doesn't act under the rules of that verse so his speed isn't governed by the speed force. Nor Goku.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I don't care if it's not your problem, that's what I'm saying.


Then don't prolong it


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> See this is what you call you having a theory that's far-fetched, Hit has absolutely nothing to do with the speed force, nothing. He doesn't act under the rules of that verse so his speed isn't governed by the speed force. Nor Goku.


What at you doing?

Seriously

Context


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Possibly. I mean, he has been able to sense other Speedsters because of their connection to the Speed Force IIRC.


Yeah but I'm mostly implying sensing  KE through the Speed Force specifically

Other Speedsters being sensed is natural, considering they are direct conduits to the speed force, with a few exceptions


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> What at you doing?
> 
> Seriously
> 
> Context


Nah it's not worth it. We're done with that.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Yeah but I'm mostly implying sensing  KE through the Speed Force specifically
> 
> Other Speedsters being sensed is natural, considering they are direct conduits to the speed force, with a few exceptions


I have no idea. I would say that probably is far-fetched but this is The Flash and his hax is fucking broken as it is.

...am I going to have to do as much reading for Flash as I do Superman next?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nah it's not worth it. We're done with that.


Did you just quote the wrong post?

Edit: I mean, the one you quoted was a new theme we never talked about, so I assume you referred the other one


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I have no idea. I would say that probably is far-fetched but this is The Flash and his hax is fucking broken as it is.
> 
> ...am I going to have to do as much reading for Flash as I do Superman next?


Implying you've actually read through Superman yet


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Implying you've actually read through Superman yet


Hey I try! I've just been busy with my art and smoking weed.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The Speed Force controls his soul which I feel may be grounds against him being sensed by Ki.



Interesting. Though I wouldn't say his speed force masks his life force from being sensed. Have any Chi/Qi users in DC like Karate Kid been unable to sense Flash's life force due to this?


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Interesting. Though I wouldn't say his speed force masks his life force from being sensed. Have any Chi/Qi uses like Karate kid been unable to sense Flash's life force due to this?


Dude no.

Ki in DC is like Earth Energy or some shit. Seems compleatly diffrent from Spirit Energy


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Interesting. Though I wouldn't say his speed force masks his life force from being sensed. Have any Chi/Qi uses like Karate kid been unable to sense Flash's life force due to this?


Nobody to my knowledge has ever been able to sense Flash through his Lifeforce. It's mostly been through his mind that he's been sensed by people like Martian Manhunter.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Hey I try! I've just been busy with my art and smoking weed.


Never knew you drew 

What else haven't you told me

I thought we had a deal!!

And did you steal my weed!?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Never knew you drew
> 
> What else haven't you told me
> 
> ...


I said so in an earlier OBD Chat! You been missing a few pages haven't you?

And no way would I steal your weed. This weed is 100% Virginian!


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Dude no.
> 
> Ki in DC is like Earth Energy or some shit. Seems compleatly diffrent from Spirit Energy



Ok. So to be more accurate has anyone with soul sensing abilities been able to sense Flash's soul despite the fact that as Blakk Jakk put it "the speed force controls his soul".



Blakk Jakk said:


> *Nobody to my knowledge has ever been able to sense Flash through his Lifeforce.* It's mostly been through his mind that he's been sensed by people like Martian Manhunter.



Has anyone ever tried and failed to do so?


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I said so in an earlier OBD Chat! You been missing a few pages haven't you?
> 
> And no way would I steal your weed. This weed is 100% Virginian!


I'm watching you

what's your art style anyway?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Has anyone ever tried and failed to do so?


I really do not know of anyone that has tried that other than maybe Spectre but that might be because he's an angel of the Presence so he can get past the Speed Force without any trouble.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> I'm watching you
> 
> what's your art style anyway?


I'm a wannabe Ken Ishikawa. I can PM you a drawing of a sand dune that I showed TTGL. I could also try and photograph a self-portrait if you don't mind seeing a Bishonen looking mofo.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I really do not know of anyone that has tried that other than maybe Spectre but that might be because he's an angel of the Presence so he can get past the Speed Force without any trouble.



So is there not really any proof of the speed force controlling Flash's soul meaning that it also masks the presence of his soul/life force?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> So is there not really any proof of the speed force controlling Flash's soul meaning that it also masks the presence of his soul/life force?


The Speed Force is his afterlife. When a Speedster dies, they immediately enter into the Speed Force. That's how connected to the soul the Speed Force is to a Speedster's soul. It's less masking and more that the Speed Force is their very life essence.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The Speed Force is his afterlife. When a Speedster dies, they immediately enter into the Speed Force. That's how connected to the soul the Speed Force is to a Speedster's soul. It's less masking and more that the Speed Force is their very life essence.



Hrmmm... so if the Speed Force is also Flash's life force what about it would make it unsenseable to someone who can sense the life force of a being?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Hrmmm... so if the Speed Force is also Flash's life force what about it would make it unsenseable to someone who can sense the life force of a being?


It's pure kinetic energy that encircles the multiverse as well as being within every universe simultaneously since it governs all speed. Basically in the DCU, if you exist outside the multiverse, you are technically beyond speed itself or so the implication seems which is backed up by every character that I can think of that originates from outside the multiverse.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> *It's pure kinetic energy* that encircles the multiverse as well as being within every universe simultaneously since it governs all speed. Basically in the DCU, if you exist outside the multiverse, you are technically beyond speed itself or so the implication seems which is backed up by every character that I can think of that originates from outside the multiverse.



It can't just be pure kinetic energy if it's also flash's life force. It'd be a hybrid of kinetic and spiritual energy in that case. And there is an example of a character with a sort of hybrid energy signature in DB (cell had the energy signatures of the different fighters he was made from and characters could sense him) so it's possible the life force part of the speed force could be sensed by Goku but the kinetic part couldn't be.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> It can't just be pure kinetic energy if it's also flash's life force. It'd be a hybrid of kinetic and spiritual energy in that case. And there is an example of a character with a sort of hybrid energy signature in DB (cell had the energy signatures of the different fighters he was made from and characters could sense him) so it's possible the life force part of the speed force could be sensed by Goku but the kinetic part couldn't be.


Even if that's the case, I don't think Goku can sense something that not only exists simultaneously in every universe but also encircles the multiverse as a whole. I'm certain that's beyond his scope.


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Even if that's the case, I don't think Goku can sense something that not only exists simultaneously in every universe but also encircles the multiverse as a whole. I'm certain that's beyond his scope.



He would only have to sense the portion of it that exists within Flash, not the entirety of it.


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## shade0180 (Jan 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> So is there not really any proof of the speed force controlling Flash's soul meaning that it also masks the presence of his soul/life force?



The speed force soul thing depends on the writer.

There's a case where The flash died and Arrow saw him in the same area when arrow died.

There's also a case where Flash died and was trapped in a loop of watching the events of the multiverse flash before him due to his soul inhabiting the speed force.

There's also the case where it was explained that speed force is basically the speedsters heaven.

then there's the shit where we see Johnny quick died literally inside the speed force.




xenos5 said:


> It can't just be pure kinetic energy if it's also flash's life force.



Also speed force is not Flash life force it is connected to flash life force considering Barry is the one who for the most part is claimed to have started it.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I'm a wannabe Ken Ishikawa. I can PM you a drawing of a sand dune that I showed TTGL. I could also try and photograph a self-portrait if you don't mind seeing a Bishonen looking mofo.


Definitely wanna see it at the PM's


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> The speed force soul thing depends on the writer.
> 
> There's a case where The flash died and Arrow saw him in the same area when arrow died.
> 
> ...



Heh. Sounds kinda inconsistent but still probably not as bad as the inconsistency of Wolvie's regen in the comics 

If the speed force is just connected to his life force his life force should definitely be able to be sensed normally, then.


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> what you think Flash need to amp himself to fight Zoom extreme lite?



It's not what I think, it's what the comic is showing.

And this is besides the point, your point was that Flash can deal with time stop and you showed he caqn't do it on his own


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> It's not what I think, it's what the comic is showing.
> 
> And this is besides the point, your point was that Flash can deal with time stop and you showed he caqn't do it on his own


Time stop or time steal or time skip, seems hit ability is changing with every post


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## xenos5 (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Time stop or time steal or time skip, seems hit ability is changing with every post



That's less of the fault of the posters here but more the vagueness of the explanation the anime gives.

However i'm pretty certain Hit has timestop as he basically says "I stopped time for everyone except you and me" in this scene  at 2:45 and time skip is just time being stored (him freezing Goku in time is just a direct application of him storing time)  . Though his time storing is better than his timestop as it can affect a character who can resist his timestop (SSB KKx10 Goku).


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## bitethedust (Jan 26, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Time stop or time steal or time skip, seems hit ability is changing with every post



Hit steals some time,  then uses it as some sort of "fuel" or resource for his other abilities. They're all time related.


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## Drake3513 (Jan 26, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> You should ask the OP instead of assuming then, it's his thread after all


lets just use n52 flash.


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## The Runner (Jan 26, 2017)

Hit creates an entire dimension he can drift in and out of made up of Skipped Time.

It can be destroyed with enough energy, but it can be rebuilt and such


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2017)

Nu52 Flash Barry stomps the end


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## Cain1234 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> It has all the relevant scans and even a calc for the Big Bang that created the DCU.
> 
> Correct me here but the DB Macrocosm is 3 universes in one correct? So that would mean that the DB Macrocosm is 282 billion light years in diameter which is smaller than the DCU at 200 trillion light years in diameter.




Where the fk did you pull 282 billion out of your ass.

The Dragon Ball material universe was said to have no end, and was stated to be... well infinite. 
By both the Data Book and Jaco. There is no know size to the DB universe. The concept of infinity is that it will always exceed whatever or whenever it is measured. Just saying something is 282 billion lightyears will not make it true in anywhere other than your own head.

As of now. The dragon ball universe is infinite, with an infinite number of Galaxies. Any "Calc" you post is just fanmade assumption.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 5


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## bitethedust (Jan 27, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Where the fk did you pull 282 billion out of your ass.
> 
> The Dragon Ball material universe was said to have no end, and was stated to be... well infinite.
> By both the Data Book and Jaco. There is no know size to the DB universe. The concept of infinity is that it will always exceed whatever or whenever it is measured. Just saying something is 282 billion lightyears will not make it true in anywhere other than your own head.
> ...



Fun facts:

1) Nearly all calcs are fanmade and made based on assumptions.

2) If you have a problem with that GTFO.

3) If you have a problem with a specific calc then take it to that calc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Drake3513 (Jan 27, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Where the fk did you pull 282 billion out of your ass.
> 
> The Dragon Ball material universe was said to have no end, and was stated to be... well infinite.
> By both the Data Book and Jaco. There is no know size to the DB universe. The concept of infinity is that it will always exceed whatever or whenever it is measured. Just saying something is 282 billion lightyears will not make it true in anywhere other than your own head.
> ...


whoa what are you talking about?


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## xenos5 (Jan 27, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Where the fk did you pull 282 billion out of your ass.
> 
> The Dragon Ball material universe was said to have no end, and was stated to be... well infinite.
> By both the Data Book and Jaco. There is no know size to the DB universe. The concept of infinity is that it will always exceed whatever or whenever it is measured. Just saying something is 282 billion lightyears will not make it true in anywhere other than your own head.
> ...



You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Using guidebook hyperbole over what we actually see in series 

I'm embarassed to have someone like you debating on the side of dragonball. You make me feel the raigen effect hardcore.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Drake3513 (Jan 27, 2017)

this is the first time i saw anybody using that shit in a debate for db.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 27, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Where the fk did you pull 282 billion out of your ass.
> 
> The Dragon Ball material universe was said to have no end, and was stated to be... well infinite.
> By both the Data Book and Jaco. There is no know size to the DB universe. The concept of infinity is that it will always exceed whatever or whenever it is measured. Just saying something is 282 billion lightyears will not make it true in anywhere other than your own head.
> ...


Okay seriously you didn't have to come at me with piss and fucking vinegar. Calm the hell down. I took the IRL size of the universe and timesed it by 3 like I said in that post. I was using information Gomu had given but GM corrected me.

Also that's obviously hyperbole. You want me to be as obtuse? Because similar statements have been made in DC. Literally in the first introduction of the Pre-Crisis Superboy, the narrator states that space is infinite. It's obvious hyperbole but by your logic, I should take it at face value.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cain1234 (Jan 27, 2017)

Space is infinite. So the narrator is right. Matter is for most of the time finite. Unless stated otherwise Or is moving at 99℅ lightspeed.

Guess what 99℅ of space is empty.

And yes you should take it to face value, because only the owner of the fictional universes can claim anything as fact, there happy.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 27, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Space is infinite. So the narrator is right. Matter is for most of the time finite. Unless stated otherwise Or is moving at 99℅ lightspeed.
> 
> Guess what 99℅ of space is empty.
> 
> And yes you should take it to face value, because only the owner of the fictional universes can claim anything as fact, there happy.


We go with Death of the Author around here. Considering that comic was published in the 40s and how the statement is presented, it's very clearly hyperbole. I know next to nothing about astrophysics but the universe being infinite is a hypothesis so don't claim it as fact.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cain1234 (Jan 27, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Using guidebook hyperbole over what we actually see in series
> 
> I'm embarassed to have someone like you debating on the side of dragonball. You make me feel the raigen effect hardcore.



Why Hyperbole, if you don't understand the concept of infinity that okay. Most humans can't comprehend it. Not me not you not even PhD holders in Mathematics. Get confused with the concept of infinity.

And secondly I want even debating for Dragonball. I was debating for fucking The Flash. Then then someone brought about an uneducated opinion about the hypothetical size of the DB universe. That's what grinded my gears.


Also fk your Reigen effect. This thread made be go from supporting DC to DB
 So shove your old obd term through you rectum and take it.

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Cain1234 (Jan 27, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> We go with Death of the Author around here. Considering that comic was published in the 40s and how the statement is presented, it's very clearly hyperbole. I know next to nothing about astrophysics but the universe being infinite is a hypothesis so don't claim it as fact.




Space is infinite, the universe "may" key word being may not be.


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## xenos5 (Jan 27, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Why Hyperbole, if you don't understand the concept of infinity that okay. Most humans can't comprehend it. Not me not you not even PhD holders in Mathematics. Get confused with the concept of infinity.



Hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

We see the universes over floating boulders surrounding Zen’ō's palace 

They cannot each be infinite. They are insignificant in comparison to the area outside of them. 



Cain1234 said:


> And secondly I want even debating for Dragonball. I was debating for fucking The Flash. Then then someone brought about an uneducated opinion about the hypothetical size of the DB universe. That's what grinded my gears.



You aren't qualified to lecture someone about the size of the db universe when you're using hyperbole even though that hyperbole is contradicted by what we see in the series. 



Cain1234 said:


> Also fk your Reigen effect. This thread made be go from supporting DC to DB
> So shove your old obd term through you rectum and take it.



Someone's butt-hurt

Reactions: Like 2


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## Cain1234 (Jan 27, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
> 
> We see the universes over floating boulders surrounding Zen’ō's palace
> 
> They cannot each be infinite. They are insignificant in comparison to the area outside of them.




But Space is infinite, its is all according to perspective, expecial when or if the size of the observer. When Goku was at Zeno's place he was pretty much the same size of those universe.





Either the 12 universes are 12 lawn ornaments or those are the twelve universe compressed. Meaning, the universes can be infinitely expanding, while what ever force keeps them in place and produces that shape as the databook states.

What I am trying to say is that space is infinite. A human being would look like a galaxy when observed by a sperm cell. A sperm cell would be universal in size in comparison to a photon.


If someone could shrink themself to the same ratio as a human in to the earth. They could easily live comfortable on the surface of a photon. Free of unnessary interaction.
The universe can be infinite, and have infinite mass but appear finite.



> You aren't qualified to lecture someone about the size of the db universe when you're using hyperbole even though that hyperbole is contradicted by what we see in the series.



I am not, Jaco will.





Here Jaco outright states that the Universe has countless galaxies.

This is whis showing a simulated image of the universe. 


Not all pictures of the universe is the same.

Hear is the DB portion of the DB universe.

銀河 Galaxy

A gathering of local planets in the universe. Planets gather and form a nebula, and beyond that, a collection of gathered nebulae is called a galaxy. The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies. Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that *exist infinitely *in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.


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## Toaa (Jan 27, 2017)

Um regardless of the match.How does flash being able to go into the futute or see it works with dragonball?


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## Toaa (Jan 27, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Any of the Reverse Flashes are huge problems to contend with especially Zolomon. He's basically The Shrike Lite and even that's pretty terrifying to think about.


What do you mean lite?the shrike is egen worse?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 27, 2017)

Toaa said:


> What do you mean lite?the shrike is egen worse?


Yeah the Shrike is worse. Zolomon is able to manipulate the timeline around him by slowing everything around him down so that he appears fast to us. There's some other abilities like his Time Shockwaves that reverberate throughout the timeline IIRC. Those are pretty broken but the Shrike takes those and goes balls to the wall wth them. The Shrike can not only manipulate the timeline to increase his speed, he can do it indefinitely which gives him virtually infinite speed. Shrike also can create temporal duplicates of himself from seconds ago and even if you kill all of them, he'll still reform. And those aren't even his most broken abilities.


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## Toaa (Jan 27, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Yeah the Shrike is worse. Zolomon is able to manipulate the timeline around him by slowing everything around him down so that he appears fast to us. There's some other abilities like his Time Shockwaves that reverberate throughout the timeline IIRC. Those are pretty broken but the Shrike takes those and goes balls to the wall wth them. The Shrike can not only manipulate the timeline to increase his speed, he can do it indefinitely which gives him virtually infinite speed. Shrike also can create temporal duplicates of himself from seconds ago and even if you kill all of them, he'll still reform. And those aren't even his most broken abilities.


Isnt the machine sth stronger than him?


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 27, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Isnt the machine sth stronger than him?


Yeah it is. Machine Ultimate Intelligence created it or at least controls it. I think that's also partly why the Shrike can't be killed by conventional means. You have to take out the Machine Ultimate Intelligence to end him.


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## Toaa (Jan 27, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Yeah it is. Machine Ultimate Intelligence created it or at least controls it. I think that's also partly why the Shrike can't be killed by conventional means. You have to take out the Machine Ultimate Intelligence to end him.


I have the novels but still havent read them.Too much studying and in the meantime im rrading chinese light novels.They do have some strong verses.


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## Toaa (Jan 27, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You cut out the part of my post where I admitted
> 
> Unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant by this statement "*that all he has to do is vaguely "feel" something and he'll correct his course appropriately*." How would Flash vaguely feel an attack that wouldn't register with any of his senses unless it was already touching him? That doesn't make any sense.
> 
> ...


What i think he prob does is somehoe he can choose to put the time he has collected in bettween normal time or cut time and use it.


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## Freddy Mercury (Jan 27, 2017)

This thread is ass

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 27, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Time stop or time steal or time skip, seems hit ability is changing with every post



It's because he has all 3 of them lol



Drake3513 said:


> lets just use n52 flash.



In that case Hit wins easier than I thought


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 27, 2017)

This Hit wank-a-thon needs to end. A consensus was reached 4 to 5 pages ago. This thread is done.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 27, 2017)

L


Worldbreaker said:


> It's because he has all 3 of them lol
> 
> 
> 
> In that case Hit wins easier than I thought


Clearly you haven't been reading much Flash comics


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 27, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> L
> 
> Clearly you haven't been reading much Flash comics



I have that's why I knew he can't do shit in a timestop on his own

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gomu (Jan 27, 2017)

If we're using composites for characters, would we be able to use composites from games and such for other characters? Like DB Xenoverse/2?


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## xenos5 (Jan 27, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> But Space is infinite, its is all according to perspective, expecial when or if the size of the observer. When Goku was at Zeno's place he was pretty much the same size of those universe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a close up shot on Goku, Whis and the supreme kai. They look larger than they actually are. They are all specks in comparison to the orbs which are the universes. 



Cain1234 said:


> I am not, Jaco will.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jaco states they're in the milky way galaxy. Which means the dragon ball universe is equivalent to our universe in size except for the other realms like other world. "Countless" is just more hyperbole.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 27, 2017)

This thread was decided, decisively on page four..why the fuck is this continuing?


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## xenos5 (Jan 27, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> i don't know how you can get "there's not really proof" out of that..at all



I had asked if anyone had ever attempted to and failed to sense Flash's life force because of the speed force. Blakk Jakk responded that it hadn't been attempted other than maybe by spectre and it worked when he did it (though he has better life force sensing with his connection to the presence). So that indicated to me Flash's life force hasn't been proven to be masked by the speed force.


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## Crackle (Jan 27, 2017)

whats Hit's speed from?


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## Juub (Jan 27, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> s
> 
> This is some marvelous bullshit..if DBS fans are seriously arguing Hit can take that in a fight then every argument they ever make in any thread needs to be treated as a distortion and much of what's been determined by consensus needs to be called into question due to a blatantly compromised majority.


Ah ah that's rich. Gotta love the bias. Calls out DB fans for being biased yet is the most biased and hateful mofo in the place.


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## twirdman (Jan 27, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> But Space is infinite, its is all according to perspective, expecial when or if the size of the observer. When Goku was at Zeno's place he was pretty much the same size of those universe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seriously man the Jaco quote is obviously not meant to be taken literally.  You cannot meaningfully define the center of something that is infinite so if he really meant the universe was infinite he would have said reaching the center is impossible.  Also we have multiple things contradicting infinite universe not the least of which is they flew out of the universe multiple times.   Unless you want to claim infinite speed in which case you'll be even more mocked.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 27, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> so we go back too "operates at speeds where someone who can keep pace with green lanterns is a statue from their perspective and he isn't even aware of the fight at all" and now he's got temporal powers to boot?
> 
> This is some marvelous bullshit..if DBS fans are seriously arguing Hit can take that in a fight then every argument they ever make in any thread needs to be treated as a distortion and much of what's been determined by consensus needs to be called into question due to a blatantly compromised majority.
> 
> ...


Yes in rebirth (believe it's still Nu52 since it was a soft reboot) Barry can alter his own time line now. Even if we didn't he was practically omnipresent when he was fused with the Black Flash. Then in the first few issues of Nu52 he was operating in femptoseconds ( the bullet dodging feat ) so it's not like he was some scrub.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 27, 2017)

Juub said:


> Ah ah that's rich. Gotta love the bias. Calls out DB fans for being biased yet is the most biased and hateful mofo in the place.



This indignation would be amusing if you guys weren't guilty as sin of everything you've been called out on over the years. You especially, who was a confederate of fucking Moses and Tyrant.



Huey Freeman said:


> Yes in rebirth (believe it's still Nu52 since it was a soft reboot) Barry can alter his own time line now. Even if we didn't he was practically omnipresent when he was fused with the Black Flash. Then in the first few issues of Nu52 he was operating in femptoseconds ( the bullet dodging feat ) so it's not like he was some scrub.



Then someone should lock this thread as a one sided rape


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## Juub (Jan 27, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> This indignation would be amusing if you guys weren't guilty as sin of everything you've been called out on over the years. You especially, who was a confederate of fucking Moses and Tyrant.
> 
> 
> 
> Then someone should lock this thread as a one sided rape


Wtf are you even talking about lol?


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## xenos5 (Jan 27, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> so we go back too "operates at speeds where someone who can keep pace with green lanterns is a statue from their perspective and he isn't even aware of the fight at all" and now he's got temporal powers to boot?
> 
> This is some marvelous bullshit..*if DBS fans* are seriously arguing Hit can take that in a fight



That's a bit of an over-generalization isn't it? I'm a DBS fan and I conceded.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> then every argument they ever make in any thread needs to be treated as a distortion *and much of what's been determined by consensus needs to be called into question due to a blatantly compromised majority.*



As far as debaters for Dragonball go none of us have a shred of respect for Cain1234 or associate with him. As for Gomu I don't really know much of anything about him as I haven't seen him post much but he's not been part of any big determination of the power/speed of the verse be consensus to my knowledge. Most of the upgrades have been from pretty clear visual feats and statements and from calcs done by God Movement and he's a pretty well respected debater around here (far more credible than either of those two) so i'd say nothing really needs to be called into question, really.


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## xenos5 (Jan 27, 2017)

@Worldbreaker 

tbh, man. I think you're grasping for straws. Sometimes speed + hax is all it takes to win. Hit doesn't have the right hax defenses or speed he'd need for this fight.


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## Worldbreaker (Jan 27, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> @Worldbreaker
> 
> tbh, man. I think you're grasping for straws. Sometimes speed + hax is all it takes to win. Hit doesn't have the right hax defenses or speed he'd need for this fight.



Have you read New52 Flash? I would recommend you to read it, so you can see how people are taking most of Flash feats out of context and see how silly is to think that he can beat someone like Hit

If you have not read those comics and just go along with the information they are giving you, it would seemed that Flash wins but there is always an IF-AND-OR-BUT to those feats that they will never tell you, for one of two reasons, 1 they have not read the comic or 2 they know they can't tell you because it would invalidate the feat, like for example, when they told people Flash can function in the time-stop but they didn't tell you he was amped by 3 other characters and was only for a short time


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 27, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> As far as debaters for Dragonball go none of us have a shred of respect for Cain1234 or associate with him. As for Gomu I don't really know much of anything about him as I haven't seen him post much but he's not been part of any big determination of the power/speed of the verse be consensus to my knowledge. Most of the upgrades have been from pretty clear visual feats and statements and from calcs done by God Movement and he's a pretty well respected debater around here (far more credible than either of those two) so i'd say nothing really needs to be called into question, really.



I sure hope so, because if not we're all in for a lovely retread of the early 2000's and that's gonna suck for all of us

Reactions: Like 2


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## xenos5 (Jan 27, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> Have you read New52 Flash? I would recommend you to read it, so you can see how people are taking most of Flash feats out of context and see how silly is to think that he can beat someone like Hit
> 
> If you have not read those comics and just go along with the information they are giving you, it would seemed that Flash wins but there is always an IF-AND-OR-BUT to those feats that they will never tell you, for one of two reasons, 1 they have not read the comic or 2 they know they can't tell you because it would invalidate the feat, like for example, when they told people Flash can function in the time-stop but they didn't tell you he was amped by 3 other characters and was only for a short time



Whatever the version of Flash as long as he's far above Hit's speed and has got speed steal or the ability to speedforce dump, he can just BFR him before he can do anything.


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 27, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> Have you read New52 Flash? I would recommend you to read it, so you can see how people are taking most of Flash feats out of context and see how silly is to think that he can beat someone like Hit
> 
> If you have not read those comics and just go along with the information they are giving you, it would seemed that Flash wins but there is always an IF-AND-OR-BUT to those feats that they will never tell you, for one of two reasons, 1 they have not read the comic or 2 they know they can't tell you because it would invalidate the feat, like for example, when they told people Flash can function in the time-stop but they didn't tell you he was *amped by 3 other characters* and was only for a short time


I'm fairly certain Huey addressed that and it's largely irrelevant since Flash can just Speed Steal Hit to achieve the same effect.


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## Xiammes (Jan 27, 2017)

Closing this down for the moment. @LazyWaka @KaiserWombat @MusubiKazesaru @Xelloss feel free to unlock at your own discretion.


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