# Hiashi vs. Kenjutsu users



## Kai (Nov 15, 2013)

Apparently it's trollish to believe kenjutsu can be deadlier than Jyuuken.

Hiashi vs. Mifune
Hiashi vs. Sasuke
Hiashi vs. Kisame
Hiashi vs. Killer Bee
Hiashi vs. Pain 
Hiashi vs. Madara

Distance: 20 meters

Conditions: Kenjutsu users can only use their kenjutsu feats (in Pain's case, all Six Paths are present with chakra rods). Hiashi is unrestricted.

Who does Hiashi beat and who beats him?


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 15, 2013)

He gets sliced to pieces in all cases.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 15, 2013)

What are Sasuke's restrictions? He might lose if it is just 3-tomoe+katana. I am a bit confused about his Sharingans. He was tracking Obito but with EMS activated. EMS was used for Susano though and we never heard or seen MS/EMS getting boost in perception. If his pre-cog became that good in 3-tomoe too - then Hiashi doesn't stand a chance. Even with Sasuke's inferior CQC skill. 

Rest are going to beat him decisively imo.


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## Krippy (Nov 15, 2013)

He gets raped all scenarios. The majority probably could blitz him.



> What are Sasuke's restrictions? He might lose if it is just 3-tomoe+katana. I am a bit confused about his Sharingans. He was tracking Obito but with EMS activated. EMS was used for Susano though and we never heard or seen MS/EMS getting boost in perception. If his pre-cog became that good in 3-tomoe too - then Hiashi doesn't stand a chance. Even with Sasuke's inferior CQC skill.



why are we comparing Juubito to Hiashi who's massively slower?


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## J★J♥ (Nov 15, 2013)

I don't know about Samehada, but he should be able to beat others.


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 15, 2013)

He beats Mifune & Sasuke, stops at Kisame

Jyuuken cant affect the zombies & Samehada trolls

Bee & Madara  would outclass Hiashi


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## Alex Payne (Nov 15, 2013)

Krippy said:


> He gets raped all scenarios. The majority probably could blitz him.
> 
> 
> 
> why are we comparing Juubito to Hiashi who's massively slower?


If EMS is what allowed Sasuke to track Obito then Sasuke with his 3-tomoe capped feats becomes less deadly(if he is restricted to that). Sasuke is faster but not overwhelmingly. And his skill is severally lacking. As is his offense. Other swordsmen are either incredibly strong(Kisame, Asura Path) or posses l33t Kenjutsu moves(Mifune) or both(Killer B). Sasuke isn't even a proper swordsman imo. His saving grace is speed.


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## Jagger (Nov 15, 2013)

alex payne said:


> What are Sasuke's restrictions? He might lose if it is just 3-tomoe+katana. I am a bit confused about his Sharingans. He was tracking Obito but with EMS activated. EMS was used for Susano though and we never heard or seen MS/EMS getting boost in perception. If his pre-cog became that good in 3-tomoe too - then Hiashi doesn't stand a chance. Even with Sasuke's inferior CQC skill.
> 
> Rest are going to beat him decisively imo.


Considering EMS pretty much enhances most of aspects about the MS techniques (control, raw power and the amount of chakra it wastes), I see it possible it also helps to get a better perception ability. But, so far, there's not a lot of evidence of Sasuke's growth with perception with just his Sharingan.

Though, this war is surely helping him a lot.


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## Krippy (Nov 15, 2013)

alex payne said:


> If EMS is what allowed Sasuke to track Obito then Sasuke with his 3-tomoe capped feats becomes less deadly(if he is restricted to that). Sasuke is faster but not overwhelmingly. And his skill is severally lacking. As is his offense. Other swordsmen are either incredibly strong(Kisame, Asura Path) or posses l33t Kenjutsu moves(Mifune) or both(Killer B). Sasuke isn't even a proper swordsman imo. His saving grace is speed.



People slower than a sharingan user have no hope of physically striking them. The only way to strike a sharingan user is to strike with overwhelming speed and evading their LOS. Hiashi can't touch him. Sasuke reads through his moves and cuts him in half. 

Mifune praised Sasuke for his skill and got casually brushed aside even when he surprised him. The only people on his list that could realistically beat him are Kirabi and Madara. The rest are too slow or are lacking in feats.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 15, 2013)

Krippy said:


> People slower than a sharingan user have no hope of physically striking them. The only way to strike a sharingan user is to strike with overwhelming speed and evading their LOS.


 



Krippy said:


> Mifune praised Sasuke for his skill and got casually brushed aside even when he surprised him. The only people on his list that could realistically beat him are Kirabi and Madara. The rest are too slow or are lacking in feats.


Mifune said "not bad" when Sasuke reacted and blocked one casual attack of his. That's speed.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2013)

Yeah, normal Mangekyou Sasuke briefly kept up with Killer Bee. Bee eventually bested Sauce, but Sasuke could at least fight him.

Hiashi's gentle fist is nowhere near as complex as Bee's 8-swords-at-once assault, and Sasuke perception has only gotten better since the Bee fight.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 15, 2013)

Is basic chakra-through-tenketsu output allowed for Hiashi? 



Rocky said:


> Yeah, normal Mangekyou Sasuke briefly kept up with Killer Bee. Bee eventually bested Sauce, but Sasuke could at least fight him.
> 
> Hiashi's gentle fist is nowhere near as complex as Bee's 8-swords-at-once assault, and Sasuke perception has only gotten better since the Bee fight.


That's some good points. Sasuke was also stated to be weakened from fighting Itachi at that time.

I am still undecided about Sauce vs Hiashi to be honest. But I think it is the closest fight here.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 15, 2013)

Sasuke is massively faster than him how there's so many people saying that he loses ? Sword to the throat . He loses all since everybody is massively faster than him or just have better feats .


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## Dr. White (Nov 15, 2013)

His only possible chances of winning are against sasuke, Mifune, and possibly Bee if he has rotation barrier allowed. Sameheda counters him, and Madara lol outclasses him. He could destroy ay one pain, but six is just to much for him. I'd even say he could take 3 given byakugan's capabilities but he might need air palm for that.


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## Krippy (Nov 15, 2013)

alex payne said:


>



you're welcome :ignoramus



> Mifune said "not bad" when Sasuke reacted and blocked one casual attack of his. That's speed and skill.



Fixed. 

I dont really see how he's lacking. A weakened version of him did marginally better than his edo tensei brother at full power at handling Kirabi's sword style, I dont see why he hasn't gotten better over 200 chapters later. Pretty sure kirabi would roll over Mifune pretty easily.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 15, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> His only possible chances of winning are against sasuke, Mifune, and possibly Bee if he has rotation barrier allowed. Sameheda counters him, and Madara lol outclasses him. He could destroy ay one pain, but six is just to much for him. I'd even say he could take 3 given byakugan's capabilities but he might need air palm for that.



How the hell against Sasuke ? He's faster than him, sure he doens't have the best Kenjutsu but his speed just make a sword to the throat viable .


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2013)

So you restricted jyuuken techniques like air palm, yet are tying to use this as a basis for comparing jyuuken to kenjutsu. Also it was never about the user but about the styles jyuuken offers way more than kenjutsu. Doesn't mean a fodder jyuuken user wouldn't loose to a master of kenjutsu. A master with a pebble beats yadyada. Finally I sai your trolling because you we're misrepresenting my arguments and attacking straw men. I just said its ridiculous to believe as a style kenjutsu is more useful than jyuuken, which it is.


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## Bonly (Nov 15, 2013)

The only match I can see Hiashi winning is against Sasuke.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sasuke was capable of tracking Juubito's speed and accurately landing hits on him.

Even before then he outmatched the V1 Raikage head to head.

Compared to having to track Juubito or V1 Raikage, tracking Hiashi should be much easier.

I see sasuke decisively outmaneuvering / bifurcating him in a head to head cqc battle.

Unless we grant the feat less Hiashi massive benefit-of-doubt speed feats ofcourse.


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## RBL (Nov 15, 2013)

Hiashi beats everyone, but kisame and probably Killer B.

EDIT : no vacuum palm 

then i don't know


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2013)

Krippy said:


> you're welcome :ignoramus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not true and you know it, Itachi pretty much replicated Sasuke's feat against B (parrying a dozen or so blows) with a kunai but decided to back off eventually instead of continuing which in hindsight is probably the smarter move as there aren't many (if any) who can best B in CQC with just a kunai. 

OT;
He beats none of them; Sasuke is way out of his league at the present time. His Sharingan is capable of tracking Juubito (no evidence to suggest EMS boosts pre-cognition); held off B while weakened and has only gotten stronger since. Hiashi without Air Palm is nowhere near as deadly as B in CQC.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 15, 2013)

Sword on Sword feats alone or is their added chakra to some of their weapons? (Mifune, Bee, Sasuke)? The "Jutsu" in Ken"JUTSU" suggests a type of power added to the swordsmen, not just physical technique. 

Sasuke, Mifune and Bee's Kenjutsu become much more deadly with chakra flow. Some to the point of actually creating mid-ranged chakra waves.

Problem with Hiashi is he lacks a great deal of feats. If we assume that he's able to utilize the lion fists of Hinata, that he has the full body chakra control of Neji (Body blow+immediate chakra barrier defense), and a good amount of speed I don't see how any Kenjutsu technique would defeat him. 

Unfortunately he has not shown lion fists or the chakra control of Neji on panel. Assumptions mean nothing in the dome. He should certainly lose to all save Mifune as he also lacks a great deal of feats.


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## Kai (Nov 15, 2013)

Turrin said:


> So you restricted jyuuken techniques like air palm, yet are tying to use this as a basis for comparing jyuuken to kenjutsu.


Vacuum Palm is not a close quarters technique. This thread is for close quarters Jyuuken taijutsu against various abilities in the art of kenjutsu (CQC).



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Also it was never about the user but about the styles jyuuken offers way more than kenjutsu.


Except there is a lot more to show in close quarters combat than taijutsu, which you didn't seem to think thoroughly.

Forms of close combat like kenjutsu can and have shown to be more dangerous than Jyuuken, and this is expressed through multiple different styles - not to mention there are much greater supplements for close quarters combat than the Byakugan.

Furthermore, Gai, a user of Goken taijutsu, is more powerful than any Hyuuga Jyuuken user. Jyuuken's ability in close quarters combat is _easily_ challenged.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Doesn't mean a fodder jyuuken user wouldn't loose to a master of kenjutsu. A master with a pebble beats yadyada.


No. I'm pitting the head, and likely the strongest shinobi, of the Hyuuga Clan against six different kenjutsu users as a part of a diverse pool of kenjutsu styles.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Nov 15, 2013)

*Hiashi*  vs:

Mifune - Loss. 
The guy blitzed *fucking Hanzou*  before he could form a single seal. This is a man with a reputation that exceeds the 3 of the strongest ninja that Konoha has to offer - let alone Hiashi. He won't even begin to start rotating before Mifune has his Katana at his throat.

Sasuke - Loss. 
Kaiten doesn't have any specific elemental advantages over Sasuke's Raiton-infused blade. He'll slice right through the chakra defense. Sasuke's Sharingan also ensures he doesn't take any hits should Hiashi preform a counterattack. Also note that Sasuke can also manifest a sword from his chidori, which has at least 5 times the range of his normal weapon.

Kisame - Loss.
 Samehada is just going to eat the chakra that's used with Jyuuken's strikes to target chakra points.. every time Hiashi gets within an arms length of distance, the sword will absorb any chakra he produces, much like it did to Killer Bee. This will turn Jyuuken strikes into harmless taps. Samehada will also chew through Kaiten like a stick of gum.

Killer Bee -  Loss.
Seven Sword Style. It leaves no opening to allow Hiashi to strike without suffering damage himself. Logically, Bee can probably infuse his blades with Raiton Chakra as he's rolling with them - which will eat through a Kaiten defense. His only hope is that Bee uses his swords the conventional way (with his hands). Hiashi seems to be superior with movement, and can get a few Jyuuken strikes in with less swords to deal with.

Pain - Win. 
Pain is hardly renowned for swordsmanship, and he's very linear when it comes to attacking with the chakra rods. He is one of the two on this list that are susceptible to Kaiten, so Hiashi will have quite the defense against Pain's strikes. Even if it's multiple bodies, He still prevails.

Madara - Stalemate. 
Though Madara has astonishing reflexes and has displayed that he is very skilled and experienced with a sword, much like Pain - he lacks the ability to pierce Kaiten's defenses. He hasn't displayed the ability to infuse his weapons with elemental chakra, so he can't utilize it here. Though his Sharingan precognition combined with aforementioned reflexes make him extremely difficult to hit. Both ninja will have a hell of a time trying to make contact.


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2013)

Kai said:


> Vacuum Palm is not a close quarters technique. This thread is for close quarters Jyuuken taijutsu against various abilities in the art of kenjutsu (CQC)..



DBIII, _ "Eight Trigrams* Vacuum Palm (八卦空掌, Hakke Kuushou)
*Taijutsu*, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, *Short* to mid-range (0-10m)"_

DBIII, _"A "vacuum shell" compressed *using the "Gentle Fist"*_



> Except there is a lot more to show in close quarters combat than taijutsu, which you didn't seem to think thoroughly.


This has nothing to do w/ Jyuuken vs Kenjutsu. And I challenge you to find where I claimed that Taijutsu is all that matters in CQC. You are just making up BS.



> Forms of close combat like kenjutsu can and have shown to be more dangerous than Jyuuken, and this is expressed through multiple different styles -


Jyuuken grants the person: 

1. Ability to rupture internal organs with a touch
2. Ability to see Chakra Network/Flow and close Tenketsu
3. Ability to produced surgical level needles from ones fingers that can cut through chakra
4. Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven
5. Eight Trigrams Thirty-Two Palms, Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms, & Eight Trigrams One Hundred Twenty-Eight Palms
6. Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm
7. Eight Trigrams Vacuum Wall Palm
8. Gentle Fist Art One Blow Body
9. Gentle Step Twin Lion Fists

Please explain to me how any Kenjutsu style comes even remotely close to granting someone as many benefits as Jyuuken's list abilities above. 



> Furthermore, Gai, a user of Goken taijutsu, is more powerful than any Hyuuga Jyuuken user. Jyuuken's ability in close quarters combat is easily challenged.


What the hell does Gai have to do w/ anything; Kenjutsu vs Jyuuken related. 



> No. I'm pitting the head, and likely the strongest shinobi, of the Hyuuga Clan against six different kenjutsu users as a part of a diverse pool of kenjutsu styles.


So Fugaku is the strongest Uchiha, because he was once the head of the Clan? There is zero evidence Haishi is the strongest Hyuuga of all time. 

What your comparing is a Haishi who has his Jyuuken heavily restricted against Kenjutsu users who may be better than him, not because their Kenjutsu style is better than Jyuuken, but because they are faster, stronger, etc... than him. So it's not even close to a real analysis of Jyuuken vs Kenjutsu.

Again instead of making this troll, thread explain how a specific Kenjutsu style is better than what Jyuuken offers.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Jyuuken grants the person:
> 
> 1. Ability to rupture internal organs with a touch
> 2. Ability to see Chakra Network/Flow and close Tenketsu
> ...




Kenjutsu grants the person:


The ability to absorb Chakra
The ability to transfer that Chakra to the wielder, healing mortal wounds
The ability to fuse with the wielder
The ability to regenerate a sword using the blood of its enemies
The ability to flow Chakra through a blade
The ability to overwhelm the Sharingan's perception with unpredictability alone
The ability to pierce multiple enemies and sew them together in human bundles
The ability to combine explosions with swordplay
The ability to combine lighting with swordplay
Iaidō 
Iaigiri

...And I'm definitely missing some. That's already more Kenjutsu abilities then the collective abilities of the Hyuuga you listed.


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kenjutsu grants the person:
> 
> 
> The ability to absorb Chakra
> ...


What are you talking about. Kenjutsu is the art of swordsmanship, I.E. how you wield the sword. Most of these are abilities of unique swords or Ninjutsu, not bi-products of a Kenjutsu style. Not to mention your combining multiple different Kenjutsu styles; when were talking a single Kenjutsu style vs Jyuuken, otherwise it would be all Kenjutsu styles vs all Taijutsu styles, in which case Kenjutsu is again vastly out-classed.

For example Mifune's IAI style would be one Kenjutsu style, which we can compare to one Taijutsu style; Jyuuken. Or B's 7-Swords would be one Kenjutsu style, which again we could compare to one Taijutsu style; Jyuuken. In both cases Jyuuken is vastly superior and those are the best Kenjutsu styles I can think of off the top of my head.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2013)

You listed every single Hyūga clan technique you could think of, so I in turn listed every single Kenjutsu technique I could think of. Everything I listed is a byproduct of a certain "Kenjutsu style" (what the hell is that exactly....?). You asked Kai to name a Kenjutsu oriented ninja with the amount of benefits equal or greater than those in your list. Here's my question to you: Can you name a single Hyūga with all of those abilities?

Think of what I listed as the abilities of a "composite" Kenjutsu user. If you have a problem, reconstruct your list to something that isn't a composite Gentle Fist user. Not every practitioner of Jūken can use the nine abilities you listed, so it isn't reflecting what you're trying to say.

If you want to compare Jūken to Kenjutsu, then compare an individual Hyūga Clan member to an individual sword fighter. Compare Hinata to Kisame, Hiashi to Mifune, Neji to Bee, etc. Don't pool every single technique of the Hyūga together and compare those to a select few Kenjutsu abilities.


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## asstonine (Nov 15, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> Hiashi beats everyone, but kisame and probably Killer B.
> 
> EDIT : no vacuum palm
> 
> then i don't know



At least you got the last part right....

Hiashi can't beat anyone here.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You listed every single Hyūga clan technique you could think of, so I in turn listed every single Kenjutsu technique I could think of. Everything I listed is a byproduct of a certain "Kenjutsu style" (what the hell is that exactly....?).



Were comparing Jyuuken a Taijutsu fighting style to a Kenjutsu fight style. All the techniques I listed are Jyuuken techniques. What you listed are not all techniques of a single Kenjutsu style. It would be like me listing every single Taijutsu technique under the label of Jyuuken.



> You asked Kai to name a Kenjutsu oriented ninja with the amount of benefits equal or greater than those in your list. Here's my question to you: Can you name a single Hyūga with all of those abilities?


I meant a single Kenjutsu style, which I think is empathically clear from my post. The reason I said Ninja in the case of Kenjutsu, is can't recall any two Ninja's that share the same Kenjutsu style and have shown different techniques; can you? But if Kai wants to list a single Kenjutsu style citing techniques used by multiple Ninja within that same style as a source he's more than welcome to do so, because again were comparing one specific style to another.

Not to mention Neji can perform all those Jyuuken techniques except perhaps Twin-Lion Fist; anyway



> If you want to compare Jūken to Kenjutsu, then compare an individual Hyūga Clan member to an individual sword fighter. Compare Hinata to Kisame, Hiashi to Mifune, Neji to Bee, etc. Don't pool every single technique of the Hyūga together and compare those to a select few Kenjutsu abilities.


And even if we did it that way the Jyuuken abilities offered to those fighters is far greater than what Mifune or B gets out of their Kenjutsu styles.



> Everything I listed is a byproduct of a certain "Kenjutsu style" (what the hell is that exactly....?).


Again no it's not. Most of what your listed are abilities of the sword itself, not how the sword is wielded, which would be Kenjutsu. Other things you listed like Chakra Flow and Elemental flow are Ninjutsu based techniques and are not Kenjutsu at all. 

Though even if you did include those it would still pale in comparison to what Jyuuken offers, anyway.


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2013)

What's a Kenjutsu style?


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What's a Kenjutsu style?



Kenjutsu refers to how someone wields their sword. A Kenjutsu style would than be a particular method of wielding the sword. As I previously highlighted Mifune's IAI (Quick-Draw) style, would be an example of a Kenjutsu style. 

Things like Chakra/Elemental Flow have nothing to do w/ someone's sword wielding skills, they are Ninjutsu techniques, that can be applied to all weapons (among other things) and are in-fact labeled Ninjutsu by the author. Things like Samehada's ability to fuse has nothing to do w/ sword wielding, it's just an innate ability of the living breathing creature that is Samehada. Etc...


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2013)

Okay, "Kenjutsu" means "Sword Technique," so _any_ technique or Jutsu that has to do with a sword could be called a Kenjustu. _Nowhere_ is it stated that that Kenjutsu is simply one's skill with a blade.

The problem is that you believe "Taijutsu" and its subset "Kenjutsu" to simply mean hand to hand (or blade to blade) combat, when those terms really define something much more. It isn't only how one fights or swings a sword...it's any ability having to do with the body or blade.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Nov 16, 2013)

asstonine said:


> You are high as shit.




What part of "Kenjutsu Alone" and "manga feats" don't you understand?


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Okay, "Kenjutsu" means "Sword Technique," so _any_ technique or Jutsu that has to do with a sword could be called a Kenjustu. _Nowhere_ is it stated that that Kenjutsu is simply one's skill with a blade.
> 
> The problem is that you believe "Taijutsu" and its subset "Kenjutsu" to simply mean hand to hand (or blade to blade) combat, when those terms really define something much more. It isn't only how one fights or swings a sword...it's any ability having to do with the body or blade.


This is what I was trying to get an answer to early in the thread.

I agree with this, the mere fact that "Jutsu" is in the word Kenjutsu and Taijutsu to me suggests chakra is influenced with the blade or hand to hand combat, so it's not just the skill/martial prowess of the combatant. The wiki furthers this assumption as Tsunade's chakra punches are considered Taijutsu on there, and Mifune's chakra influenced blade attacks (Sabre technique) are considered Kenjutsu.

This should be debated further in the dome especially for Taijutsu, as that is used more in the dome (Taijutsu only threads).


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Okay, "Kenjutsu" means "Sword Technique," so _any_ technique or Jutsu that has to do with a sword could be called a Kenjustu. _Nowhere_ is it stated that that Kenjutsu is simply one's skill with a blade.
> 
> The problem is that you believe "Taijutsu" and its subset "Kenjutsu" to simply mean hand to hand (or blade to blade) combat, when those terms really define something much more. It isn't only how one fights or swings a sword...it's any ability having to do with the body or blade.



Kenjutsu are sword techniques produced w/ someone skill w/ the blade, but things like Chidori Flow or Chakra Flow aren't sword techniques they are ninjutsu techniques. If they are used to perform a specific sword technique that's a different story tho.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 16, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Kenjutsu are sword techniques produced w/ someone skill w/ the blade, but things like Chidori Flow or Chakra Flow aren't sword techniques they are ninjutsu.


Hyugas use advanced chakra-manipulation. And dojutsu. Why wouldn't advanced chakra manipulation be included in kenjutsu if said manipulation specifically developed to use together with a sword? You need to master dojutsu first and use it in conjunction with actual taijutsu to use Jyuken. So someone who is skilled enough to apply chakra-flow or any chakra-trick to his sword-based attacks is using kenjutsu. Unless you want to argue that Hyugas only use taijutsu when their Byakugan is off. 


Now about this whole debate. Kenjutsu is not a style. It's a field of expertise. B's 7 Swords - that's a style. Kenjutsu overall is a very powerful field. Not only you can potentially acquire swords with special abilities(7 Swordsmen arsenal, Totsuka, Kusanagi) you can also chose a specific style(dual-wield, 7 Swords, large sword, katana) to compliment your physical abilities. There are chakra flows and chakra techs that are used with the sword. Raiton, Futon, Katon. Those are all Kenjutsu. You can have special moves like Mifune's Iai-do or even Tobirama's Hiraishingiri. Those are also kenjutsu. You can simply apply poison(Sasori's puppets) and you'd instantly have something deadlier than even Jyuken. Hyuga needs to hit specific points. You with a poisoned blade need to scratch any area of the body. 

Jyuken as a whole is a bit silly if you think about it. It was called superior to Gai/Lee style(Goken?) simply because it targets vitals directly. Now, if you are skilled and fast enough to connect your hand with enemy's chest where the heart is - why can't you use kunai and simply stab the fucker? If you can hit your opponent 64 times without him unable to do anything - why can't use kunai to simply stab him in the face once. Or throat. Or dick. "I can hit you 64 times and block your chakra!". Why the fuck would you bother with that if one kunai stab is all what it takes? If you can hit someone 64 times you are obviously capable of stabbing him once.

Now there are obvious cases of people with abnormal durability or defenses where Jyuken is superior to basic Kunai stabs. Orochimaru, Kakuzu. Or regenerators like Tsunade, Sakura and Kabuto. Where Tenketsu-blockage is an excellent tool to stop them from regenerating. But those people are like 0,01% of the total ninja population. And almost every one of them is so above Hyugas that even the right ability wouldn't matter in a fight. 

Hyugas strength lies in Byakugan's ability to see everything, ability to destroy chakra-based substances and Kaiten. They aren't deadlier in CQC than a swordsman of comparable level imo. I'd pick Kenjutsu Package over Hyuga Package personally. Variety and potential is significantly higher in Kenjutsu.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Nov 16, 2013)

Well...... if there's no chakra involved in the Kenjutsu, it's obviously going to be Kisame and Mifune. Kisame's Samehada will naturally absorb all chakra-based attacks within close enough proximity (Jyuuken, Kaiten), and Mifune at 20 meters is a swift death for Hiashi with Iaijutsu.

Everyone else doesn't have what it takes to pierce Kaiten. It will really hamper their game, regardless of how skilled they are with a normal sword.


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## Kai (Nov 16, 2013)

Turrin said:


> DBIII, _ "Eight Trigrams* Vacuum Palm (八卦空掌, Hakke Kuushou)
> *Taijutsu*, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, *Short* to mid-range (0-10m)"_
> 
> DBIII, _"A "vacuum shell" compressed *using the "Gentle Fist"*_


Ok I stand corrected.

Although this thread is more feat based, as we haven't actually witnessed Vacuum Palm done in close quarters in the manga IIRC. Their in character manga usage is not in line much with the databook entry.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> This has nothing to do w/ Jyuuken vs Kenjutsu.* And I challenge you to find where I claimed that Taijutsu is all that matters in CQC. You are just making up BS.*


Are you really going to play that game with me. How about I challenge you to find where I said that you said taijutsu is all that matters in CQC? That's a rhetorical question.

What you did claim was that taijutsu was a major facet of CQC, and that Hiashi possesses the most dangerous or 2nd most dangerous taijutsu style - ergo, you believe Hiashi is one of the most dangerous close quarters fighters with his taijutsu style. Is that not simple deduction?

I directly challenged Hiashi's close quarters ability with this thread, which you believed was strong enough to possibly even beat A.

This thread also serves to show that taijutsu is but one facet of CQC. 




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Jyuuken grants the person:
> 
> 1. Ability to rupture internal organs with a touch
> 2. Ability to see Chakra Network/Flow and close Tenketsu
> ...


I don't think I need to elaborate how, just like the Byakugan for Jyuuken, a variety of supplements are used to enhance the art of kenjutsu. And there are supplements that simply make the Byakugan look like chump change.

Rocky made a worthy compilation list in response to this already.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So Fugaku is the strongest Uchiha, because he was once the head of the Clan? There is zero evidence Haishi is the strongest Hyuuga of all time.


I said Hiashi is likely to be the strongest Hyuuga, which even if not he is one of the strongest Hyuugas which by no means is a "fodder jyuuken user" vs. a master of kenjutsu. And "all time?"  Now you're putting words into my mouth.

On a side note, Fugaku may have been the strongest Uchiha in the clan aside from Itachi, who was a special case. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> What your comparing is a Haishi who has his Jyuuken heavily restricted against Kenjutsu users who may be better than him,* not because their Kenjutsu style is better than Jyuuken, but because they are faster, stronger, etc...* than him. So it's not even close to a real analysis of Jyuuken vs Kenjutsu.


No.

It is not just because they are faster or stronger. There is a vast array of abilities that not only supplement kenjutsu like I said previously, but are present *within the swords themselves*, like Samehada or Zabuza's Kubikiribocho. 

That is all part of kenjutsu. Just like Byakugan enhances Hyuuga's performance with Jyuuken.

And there are far worse pains to deal with than the Byakugan.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Again instead of making this troll, thread


Turrin, it simply makes no sense for you to have taken your support for Hiashi/Hyuuga ability this far.

For "one of the most dangerous CQC styles" Jyuuken has one of the most limited feats from any other styles we have seen. We have witnessed close quarter abilities that easily challenge Jyuuken and are far more dangerous from multiple shinobi.

Finally, which is most important to me, *there is not a single Hyuuga above the Jounin level.* I don't know how much this has to be stressed when you support Hiashi possibly beating A in CQC, when this whole thread serves to show that Hiashi is *easily* challenged in CQC by some other CQC oriented Kage levels and beaten on almost all occasions.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 16, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Hyugas use advanced chakra-manipulation. And dojutsu. Why wouldn't advanced chakra manipulation be included in kenjutsu if said manipulation specifically developed to use together with a sword? You need to master dojutsu first and use it in conjunction with actual taijutsu to use Jyuken. So someone who is skilled enough to apply chakra-flow or any chakra-trick to his sword-based attacks is using kenjutsu. Unless you want to argue that Hyugas only use taijutsu when their Byakugan is off.


The stuff your describing would more accurately be Ninkenjutsu as it combines Ninjutsu and Kenjutsu; not pure Kenjutsu. Just like Ei's fighting style is referred to as Nintaijutsu in the Second Fan-book:
patting



> Now about this whole debate. Kenjutsu is not a style. It's a field of expertise. B's 7 Swords - that's a style. Kenjutsu overall is a very powerful field. Not only you can potentially acquire swords with special abilities(7 Swordsmen arsenal, Totsuka, Kusanagi) you can also chose a specific style(dual-wield, 7 Swords, large sword, katana) to compliment your physical abilities. There are chakra flows and chakra techs that are used with the sword. Raiton, Futon, Katon. Those are all Kenjutsu..


Yes Kenjutsu is a field, just like Taijutsu is a field. Within that field of Kenjutsu we have styles like Mifune's IAI and within the field of Taijutsu we have styles like Jyuuken. So one style out of the field of Kenjutsu should be compared to one style out of the field of Taijutsu; not every style of Kenjutsu compared to a single style of Taijutsu; Jyuuken.



> You can have special moves like Mifune's Iai-do or even Tobirama's Hiraishingiri. Those are also kenjutsu. You can simply apply poison(Sasori's puppets) and you'd instantly have something deadlier than even Jyuken. Hyuga needs to hit specific points. You with a poisoned blade need to scratch any area of the body


I'm sorry but a poisoned weapon is not better than Jyuuken. Yes poison (depending on the poison) is perhaps more deadly than Jyuuken's internal strikes or Tenketsu closing, but it's not better than everything Jyuuken offers, like the ability to form an Ultimate Defense w/ Kaiten or utilize Air Palms strikes. 

I also would not consider applying poison to one's weapons Kenjutsu, as that does not apply to skill w/ the blade, what-so-ever. Maybe you could also label this under Ninkenjutsu, if Ninjutsu is used to brew the poison, but definitely not pure Kenjutsu.



> Jyuken as a whole is a bit silly if you think about it. It was called superior to Gai/Lee style(Goken?) simply because it targets vitals directly. Now, if you are skilled and fast enough to connect your hand with enemy's chest where the heart is - why can't you use kunai and simply stab the fucker? If you can hit your opponent 64 times without him unable to do anything - why can't use kunai to simply stab him in the face once. Or throat. Or dick. "I can hit you 64 times and block your chakra!". Why the fuck would you bother with that if one kunai stab is all what it takes? If you can hit someone 64 times you are obviously capable of stabbing him once.
> 
> Now there are obvious cases of people with abnormal durability or defenses where Jyuken is superior to basic Kunai stabs. Orochimaru, Kakuzu. Or regenerators like Tsunade, Sakura and Kabuto. Where Tenketsu-blockage is an excellent tool to stop them from regenerating. But those people are like 0,01% of the total ninja population. And almost every one of them is so above Hyugas that even the right ability wouldn't matter in a fight.
> .


We've seen normal dudes tank being stabbed by Kunai, Shuriken, etc... one hit from Jyuuken and they are done. And it helps against durable and regenerative enemies as you mentioned. And you might profess that no Hyuuga could fight on par with these guys/gals, but most shinobi battles are Team matches, so having a Hyuuga in your team when up against one of these guys/gals is going to be more valuable than having someone who can just stab w/ a Kunai. 

Also you continue to ignore things like Kaiten, Body Blow, and Air Palm Strikes; all of which make Jyuuken far superior to simply a fast dude with a Kunai or a Sword.



> Hyugas strength lies in Byakugan's ability to see everything, ability to destroy chakra-based substances and Kaiten. They aren't deadlier in CQC than a swordsman of comparable level imo. I'd pick Kenjutsu Package over Hyuga Package personally. Variety and potential is significantly higher in Kenjutsu.


Well if we ignore several of Jyuuken's skills; Air Palm Strikes, Kaiten, etc... Than count what should be more accurately labeled ninkenjutsu as pure kenjutsu, than I can understand seeing the gap between Jyuuken and specific Kenjutsu styles as being smaller, but that really is a non-sensical way to look at this.

In reality Mifune's IAI style is the best pure Kenjutsu style we've seen in the manga and it pales in comparison to Jyuuken.


----------



## Kai (Nov 16, 2013)

A's fighting style is nintaijutsu because he uses Raiton no Yoroi, a ninjutsu, to enhance his physical abilities.

Flowing one's chakra into the blade, an action even the most basic samurai can do, is not ninkenjutsu. That is purely kenjutsu.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 16, 2013)

Kiba's techs are classified as Taijutsu even though they include heavy ninjutsu usage. Kimimaro's dances are Taijutsu even though he uses Kekkei Genkai to produce them bones. 

And my favorite:



> *TAIJUTSU*; *Hien* (Flying Swallow Bird*)
> User: Sarutobi Asuma
> Offensive; Close range; Rank: B



There is no such thing as ninkenjutsu. Simply kenjutsu.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 16, 2013)

Kai said:


> Ok I stand corrected.
> 
> Although this thread is more feat based, as we haven't actually witnessed Vacuum Palm done in close quarters in the manga IIRC. Their in character manga usage is not in line much with the databook entry.


There is no difference between how it's used in CQC as it's used at mid range. It sends blast of air at the enemy



> Are you really going to play that game with me. How about I challenge you to find where I said that you said taijutsu is all that matters in CQC? That's a rhetorical question.


What game? You are intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting my points and creating whole threads to attack a straw-man. 



> What you did claim was that taijutsu was a major facet of CQC, and that Hiashi possesses the most dangerous or 2nd most dangerous taijutsu style - ergo, you believe Hiashi is one of the most dangerous close quarters fighters with his taijutsu style. Is that not simple deduction?


No actually it's not. I do not believe Haishi is one of the most dangerous CQC fighters. There are people leagues above him like BSM Naruto and Juubiobito, to name only the extreme examples. You twisted me saying Taijutsu is a major facet of CQC, into this straw man argument that Taijutsu is the only major facet. 



> I directly challenged Hiashi's close quarters ability with this thread, which you believed was strong enough to possibly even beat A.


Yet did not give Haishi access to all of his CQC abilities. So your presenting a handicapped Haishi. Which proves nothing about how a non-handicapped Haishi would perform. It also strays especially far away from our discussion in the other thread, because you specifically banned the Jyuuken abilities of Haishi that I said could give Ei some difficulty. 



> This thread also serves to show that taijutsu is but one facet of CQC.


\
Which is again attacking a straw-man because I never said it wasn't.



> I don't think I need to elaborate how, just like the Byakugan for Jyuuken, a variety of supplements are used to enhance the art of kenjutsu. And there are supplements that simply make the Byakugan look like chump change.
> 
> Rocky made a worthy compilation list in response to this already.


Rocky's list compared ever Kenjutsu and NinKenjutsu style imaginable to a single Taijutsu style Jyuuken, it is hardly even close to a fair comparison. 



> I said Hiashi is likely to be the strongest Hyuuga, which even if not he is one of the strongest Hyuugas which by no means is a "fodder jyuuken user" vs. a master of kenjutsu. And "all time?" Now you're putting words into my mouth.
> 
> On a side note, Fugaku may have been the strongest Uchiha in the clan aside from Itachi, who was a special case.


The Fodder thing was just an extreme example, never did I say you were saying that. I simply was highlighting that Haishi is not necessarily representative of the absolute hight of Jyuuken. Just like Fugaku despite being the Uchiha clan head is not representative of the hight of Sharingan.



> No.
> 
> It is not just because they are faster or stronger. There is a vast array of abilities that not only supplement kenjutsu like I said previously, but are present within the swords themselves, like Samehada or Zabuza's Kubikiribocho.
> 
> ...


These are all abilities outside of Kenjutsu. Now you can say Byakugan is an ability outside of Taijutsu, so Jyuuken might more technically be a Dojutsu-Taijutsu, but our discussion was Jyuuken vs Kenjutsu, not Taijutsu vs Kenjutsu. So that really doesn't matter. 

On the other hand I said Kenjutsu being > Jyuuken is ridiculous, and now your presenting feats that are not purely Kenjutsu, so that does nothing to counter my point. Now if you meant NinKenjutsu or Kenjutsu supplimented by other abilities/techniques can be around Jyuuken's level, than fine, I wouldn't have said that was ridiculous in the first place tho, which is why I asked you to explain yourself better. However instead of doing that you went off making this trollish thread.



> Finally, which is most important to me, there is not a single Hyuuga above the Jounin level. I don't know how much this has to be stressed when you support Hiashi possibly beating A in CQC, when this whole thread serves to show that Hiashi is easily challenged in CQC by some other CQC oriented Kage levels and beaten on almost all occasions.


I don't know why you think a Jonin can't beat a Kage. I mean obviously the Kages odds are much better, but if the Jonin has a good style to use against the Kage, and is an especially strong Jonin I see no reason why, if we played the match out 100 times that Jonin couldn't win a few. There is literally nothing that says a Kage always beats a Jonin. 



Kai said:


> A's fighting style is nintaijutsu because he uses Raiton no Yoroi, a ninjutsu, to enhance his physical abilities.
> 
> Flowing one's chakra into the blade, an action even the most basic samurai can do, is not ninkenjutsu. That is purely kenjutsu.



And they are using Ninjutsu to enhance their Sword slashes. It is no different.



alex payne said:


> Kiba's techs are classified as Taijutsu even though they include heavy ninjutsu usage. Kimimaro's dances are Taijutsu even though he uses Kekkei Genkai to produce them bones.
> 
> And my favorite:
> 
> ...


Because we should take a source written almost a decade ago over a source written last arc. Kishi obviously decided to become more specific in his labeling and that is why he calls Raikage's fighting style Nintaijutsu, instead of just taijutsu in the DB. Most likely Kishi did this because of the fact that simply labeling things Taijutsu or Ninjutsu, does not account properly for these hybrid styles.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 16, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Because we should take a source written almost a decade ago over a source written last arc. Kishi obviously decided to become more specific in his labeling and that is why he calls Raikage's fighting style Nintaijutsu, instead of just taijutsu in the DB. Most likely Kishi did this because of the fact that simply labeling things Taijutsu or Ninjutsu, does not account properly for these hybrid styles.


Classic Turrin. 

I can say the same about Hyuga's tech entries. DB3 was what 5 years ago? Maybe they are nintaijutsu too now. And there was no Databook with Raikage in it.


----------



## Kai (Nov 16, 2013)

Turrin said:


> There is no difference between how it's used in CQC as it's used at mid range. It sends blast of air at the enemy


The difference is that we've never seen Vaccum Palm being used in CQC like the more centered feats of traditional Jyuuken strikes and releasing chakra from tenketsu.

Maybe it's just not as viable.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> No actually it's not. I do not believe Haishi is one of the most dangerous CQC fighters. There are people leagues above him like BSM Naruto and Juubiobito, to name only the extreme examples. You twisted me saying Taijutsu is a major facet of CQC, into this straw man argument that Taijutsu is the only major facet.


It's hard to believe what you're denying, when



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Haishi is closer to being Top Tier in Taijutsu, than Ei is in speed. He is also closer to Top Tier in Tracking ability than Ei is to speed.





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Since we know someone w/ Sasuke's speed can react to this physical portion of Ei's attack, than Haishi w/ Byakugan, superior exp in Taijutsu/CQC





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> but Taijutsu is major facet of CQC, so the very fact that Byakugan gives the user access to one of the most, if not thee *most deadly Taijutsu fighting style* in the manga cannon is yet another reason it *excels beyond Sharingan in CQC.*



So taijutsu is a major facet of CQC, yet you don't believe it to be the only major factor, yet you use Hiashi's *taijutsu* ability to prove by default how he's better than someone else in *CQC* or a supplement for CQC.

Taijutsu is one facet of CQC. Better taijutsu =/= who is better at CQC. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Yet did not give Haishi access to all of his CQC abilities. So your presenting a handicapped Haishi. Which proves nothing about how a non-handicapped Haishi would perform. It also strays especially far away from our discussion in the other thread, because you specifically banned the Jyuuken abilities of Haishi that I said could give Ei some difficulty.


You're just picking needles in the haystack, as how exactly is Hiashi handicapped of any value when in character neither he nor Neji has used Vaccum Palm for CQC?

If it makes you feel better, I'll lift the restriction on Vaccum Palm.

And no, you never said that specific ability was what could possibly beat A. You explained Hiashi's whole CQC style with Jyuuken as giving A major difficulty and possibly win.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> These are all abilities outside of Kenjutsu. Now you can say Byakugan is an ability outside of Taijutsu, so Jyuuken might more technically be a Dojutsu-Taijutsu, but our discussion was Jyuuken vs Kenjutsu, not Taijutsu vs Kenjutsu. So that really doesn't matter.


How are properties of the sword itself outside of kenjutsu?

Any ability with a sword is part of kenjutsu, including the sword itself and that's why the sword is half the power of the "Seven Swordsmen of the Mist", who were all famed kenjutsu users wielding a variety of swords *known* for their inherent qualities.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> On the other hand I said Kenjutsu being > Jyuuken is ridiculous, and now your presenting feats that are not purely Kenjutsu, so that does nothing to counter my point. Now if you meant NinKenjutsu or Kenjutsu supplimented by other abilities/techniques can be around Jyuuken's level, than fine, I wouldn't have said that was ridiculous in the first place tho, which is why I asked you to explain yourself better. However instead of doing that you went off making this trollish thread.


Don't be ridiculous.

Byakugan enhances Jyuuken Taijutsu, are you going to tell me Sharingan for kenjutsu is any less "pure" kenjutsu than another dojutsu in this very discussion is for a taijutsu style?



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I don't know why you think a Jonin can't beat a Kage. I mean obviously the Kages odds are much better, but if the Jonin has a good style to use against the Kage, and is an especially strong Jonin I see no reason why, if we played the match out 100 times that Jonin couldn't win a few. There is literally nothing that says a Kage always beats a Jonin.


A Jounin can beat a Kage when their abilities operate independently of their titles like Kakashi or Gai.

A Jounin level is not beating a Kage level.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> And they are using Ninjutsu to enhance their Sword slashes. It is no different.


What samurai has used ninjutsu? 

Chakra flow is not a ninjutsu, it is a skill.


----------



## Sans (Nov 16, 2013)

Upon careful consideration, Hiashi loses all scenarios when able to use Air Palm.

Glad that was cleared up.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 16, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Classic Turrin.
> 
> I can say the same about Hyuga's tech entries. DB3 was what 5 years ago? Maybe they are nintaijutsu too now. And there was no Databook with Raikage in it.


Who cares tho? Not me. Because my whole stance was that Jyuuken is better than pure Kenjutsu. To, which people are arguing no it's not. You guys are the ones that need to prove shit is just Kenjutsu, I don't have to prove Jyuuken is just Taijutsu, because that has no relevance to whether Jyuuken is better than Kenjutsu.



Kai said:


> The difference is that we've never seen Vaccum Palm being used in CQC like the more centered feats of traditional Jyuuken strikes and releasing chakra from tenketsu.
> 
> Maybe it's just not as viable.



According to Kishimoto Short-range combat is 5m we actually saw Neji use Air Palm on Kisame within 5m of him. I'm pretty sure we saw Hinata use Air Palm to deflect a Juubi Mokuton attack even closer than that.  And there is no evidence that this would be less effective in CQC.



> It's hard to believe what you're denying, when


And this is why your trolling Kai, because your taking shit out of context and trying to attack a straw-man, or you simply aren't bothering to read my entire post. Ether way you should not be speaking towards the context of my post, as you are doing so highly inaccurately.

1. Haishi being closer to Top Tier in Taijutsu, than Ei in speed, Is not me saying he is Top Tier. In-fact if you read 1 line bellow the one you quoted, I specifically said I don't consider Haishi Top Tier at all, as there are people leagues above him. This also has zero relevance to your claiming that I'm saying all that matters in CQC is Taijutsu

2. Saying Haishi's superior skill in Taijutsu will aid him in certain ways that Sasuke's inferior skill in Taijutsu does not; again in now way indicates Taijutsu is thee only thing that matters, or that I consider Haishi Top Tier in CQC.

3. Something Excelling beyond the Sharingan in CQC ability, again does not indicate whatsover that Taijutsu is all that matters in CQC or that someone w/ Byakugan is Top Tier in CQC, as someone w/ Sharingan is not Top Tier in CQC. 

So all three of these points are attacking a straw man



> So taijutsu is a major facet of CQC, yet you don't believe it to be the only major factor, yet you use Hiashi's taijutsu ability to prove by default how he's better than someone else in CQC or a supplement for CQC.
> 
> Taijutsu is one facet of CQC. Better taijutsu =/= who is better at CQC.


I said Byakugan allowing for a superior Taijutsu style, among other things, is what makes it a better Dojutsu for CQC than the Sharingan. In what way is that saying better Taijutsu = whose better at CQC. You seem to have totally ignored the " yet another reason" part, which was stated because I had provided other reasons besides Taijutsu for drawing my conclusion that Byakugan is > than Sharingan for CQC. Really I should not have to explain this too you since, during our previous discussion you both acknowledged and responded to those other points, and are now sitting here and pretending my only reason was Taijutsu. 

So this is like the 5th straw-man you attacked in a single post.



> You're just picking needles in the haystack, as how exactly is Hiashi handicapped of any value when in character neither he nor Neji has used Vaccum Palm for CQC?
> 
> If it makes you feel better, I'll lift the restriction on Vaccum Palm.
> 
> And no, you never said that specific ability was what could possibly beat A. You explained Hiashi's whole CQC style with Jyuuken as giving A major difficulty and possibly win.


Go back and read my posts, I in-fact did say Air Palm Strikes were a major reason why Haishi could do some damage to Ei. I did say body blow is the one thing that could potentially save Haishi from being one-shotted by R2 Ei. And yes I also did say Haishi's CQC Jyuuken style is what would potentially give Ei difficulty, but guess what those are Jyuuken techniques, so there is nothing wrong with me saying that. It seems to me you simply weren't aware of the fact that these were Jyuuken techniques that can be used at Short-range and are back peddling ever since I proved you wrong.



> How are properties of the sword itself outside of kenjutsu?
> 
> Any ability with a sword is part of kenjutsu, including the sword itself and that's why the sword is half the power of the "Seven Swordsmen of the Mist", who were all famed kenjutsu users wielding a variety of swords known for their inherent qualities.


Because it has nothing to do with skill wielding the sword, it's just a property of the sword. How does Zabuza's blade regenerating reflect his skill wielding the execution blade in combat. To give but one example.



> Don't be ridiculous.
> 
> Byakugan enhances Jyuuken Taijutsu, are you going to tell me Sharingan for kenjutsu is any less "pure" kenjutsu than another dojutsu in this very discussion is for a taijutsu style?


I never had a problem w/ Sharingan being used w/ Kenjutsu in the first place. What I have a problem w/ is abilities that do not reflect Kenjutsu skill whatsoever, such as Chidori Flow, which is a Ninjutsu.



> A Jounin can beat a Kage when their abilities operate independently of their titles like Kakashi or Gai.
> 
> A Jounin level is not beating a Kage level.


There is no A > B > C scale stated in the manga where a Jonin can't possibly ever beat a Kage, let alone present difficulty for a Kage. Your pulling this out of your ass. 

Yes Kages are stronger and better Shinobi than most Jonin and you'd typically give them better odds to win (which I did), however that doesn't mean that exceptionally skilled Jonin can't give then a run for their money or a tough battle, especially considering how their skill sets match up and the conditions of the battle, location, knowledge, etc... And especially considering Ei is one of the weakest Kages. 



> What samurai has used ninjutsu?
> 
> Chakra flow is not a ninjutsu, it is a skill.


Listen even if we gave Kenjutsu users chakra flow, it's not making their Kenjutsu style better than Jyuuken, even in the case of Mifune who has the most advanced Kenjutsu style among the Samurai. And this is coming from someone who has Mifune as one of his favorite characters and doesn't give 2 shits about Byakugan users. So If anything i'm biased towards Mifune.


----------



## Kai (Nov 16, 2013)

Turrin said:


> According to Kishimoto Short-range combat is 5m we actually saw Neji use Air Palm on Kisame within 5m of him. I'm pretty sure we saw Hinata use Air Palm to deflect a Juubi Mokuton attack even closer than that.  And there is no evidence that this would be less effective in CQC.


We'll just have to settle on mutual disagreement then, as I definitely do not consider this CQC. 



It's rather clear the technique was brought forth to introduce range to Neji's style, but there's no way I'd be able to convince you of that.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> And this is why your trolling Kai, because your taking shit out of context and trying to attack a straw-man, or you simply aren't bothering to read my entire post. Ether way you should not be speaking towards the context of my post, as you are doing so highly inaccurately.
> 
> 1. Haishi being closer to Top Tier in Taijutsu, than Ei in speed, Is not me saying he is Top Tier. In-fact if you read 1 line bellow the one you quoted, I specifically said I don't consider Haishi Top Tier at all, as there are people leagues above him. This also has zero relevance to your claiming that I'm saying all that matters in CQC is Taijutsu
> 
> ...


I assure you there's no strawman being targeted.

1. Why I brought up this point was because you used Hiashi being "top tier" in taijutsu to tie in with your following points in later posts that Hiashi is more dangerous than other abilities for CQC because his taijutsu is so lethal. This is not a statement being made in of itself.

2. It matters because Sasuke did not use taijutsu as a style of choice of CQC against A, he used *CQC related abilities* such as Sharingan, Chidori and Raiton-guided Kusanagi. In no shape or form is your comparison comparing strict taijutsu styles when that isn't even a valid comparison. Therefore it's clear as day you were using  Hiashi's taijutsu ability as a means to elevate his CQC prowess over Sasuke's, against A. This is a perfect example of you using taijutsu in trying to dictate who is better at CQC.

3. First of all, there is zero proof that Byakugan is greater than Sharingan in CQC. That is an assumption of yours that hasn't even lifted off the ground yet. I've told you multiple times Byakugan is greater for the Jyuuken style of taijutsu, which revolves *entirely* around the insight of the inner body, and you've yet to counter with a single valid example in how Byakugan excels over Sharingan in overall CQC ability.

You are merely assuming, and wrongly at that, that Byakugan already excels over Sharingan in CQC which leaves the rest of your analysis that follows nothing less than questionable.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I said Byakugan allowing for a superior Taijutsu style, among other things, is what makes it a better Dojutsu for CQC than the Sharingan. In what way is that saying better Taijutsu = whose better at CQC. You seem to have totally ignored the " yet another reason" part, which was stated because I had provided other reasons besides Taijutsu for drawing my conclusion that Byakugan is > than Sharingan for CQC. Really I should not have to explain this too you since, during our previous discussion you both acknowledged and responded to those other points, and are now sitting here and pretending my only reason was Taijutsu.
> 
> So this is like the 5th straw-man you attacked in a single post.


It seems like I'm attacking multiple strawman arguments because objecting to your initial basis for those arguments such as "Byakugan excels over Sharingan in CQC" were completely unsubstantiated, leaving the rest of your succeeding, related claims to be just as illogical.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Go back and read my posts, I in-fact did say Air Palm Strikes were a major reason why Haishi could do some damage to Ei. I did say body blow is the one thing that could potentially save Haishi from being one-shotted by R2 Ei. And yes I also did say Haishi's CQC Jyuuken style is what would potentially give Ei difficulty, but guess what those are Jyuuken techniques, so there is nothing wrong with me saying that. It seems to me you simply weren't aware of the fact that these were Jyuuken techniques that can be used at Short-range and are back peddling ever since I proved you wrong.


If that's what makes you believe I'm unfairly handicapping Hiashi, I'll allow Vacuum Palm for all the fights.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Because it has nothing to do with skill wielding the sword, it's just a property of the sword. How does Zabuza's blade regenerating reflect his skill wielding the execution blade in combat. To give but one example.


There is no such distinction that separates sword abilities or supplement abilities with kenjutsu as separate from kenjutsu.

One's skill in wielding a sword is not what kenjutsu is. Kenjutsu is an entire field of swordsmanship and abilities that can go hand in hand with that field are not excluded from consideration. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I never had a problem w/ Sharingan being used w/ Kenjutsu in the first place. What I have a problem w/ is abilities that do not reflect Kenjutsu skill whatsoever, such as Chidori Flow, which is a Ninjutsu.


Sure, moves with Chidori would be considered ninjutsu.

Raiton-flow, however, which is a _skill_ obtained using one's own natural affinity, is not at all a ninjutsu.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> There is no A > B > C scale stated in the manga where a Jonin can't possibly ever beat a Kage, let alone present difficulty for a Kage. Your pulling this out of your ass.


Nobody listed a scale Turrin. What I'm telling you is a Jounin-level shinobi would not be Jounin level if he were capable of beating a Kage.

Nobody's denying there are cases of Jounin *ranked* shinobi that are Kage level.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Yes Kages are stronger and better Shinobi than most Jonin and you'd typically give them better odds to win (which I did), however that doesn't mean that exceptionally skilled Jonin can't give then a run for their money or a tough battle, especially considering how their skill sets match up and the conditions of the battle, location, knowledge, etc... And especially considering Ei is one of the weakest Kages.


I know you're opting for the neutral stance, and I'm disagreeing with that neutral stance. I disagree that it's possible for a Jounin level ninja to beat a ninja of the Kage level.

We're not talking about Jounin like Kakashi, Gai, or the Sannin. 

We're talking about Jounin who express the (Elite) Jounin level norm such as Zabuza, Asuma, Darui, and yes. Hiashi. Or any of the bodyguards that accompanied their Kages to the Kage Summit.

There is no bodyguard at the Summit that would stand a chance against any of the Kages present, no matter how much credit you try to grant match ups to compensate for a tier's worth of differences.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Listen even if we gave Kenjutsu users chakra flow, it's not making their Kenjutsu style better than Jyuuken, even in the case of Mifune who has the most advanced Kenjutsu style among the Samurai. And this is coming from someone who has Mifune as one of his favorite characters and doesn't give 2 shits about Byakugan users. So If anything i'm biased towards Mifune.


I hear your words, and it doesn't change the fact that applying chakra flow, dojutsu, or even inherent abilities of the swords themselves is *all* a part of kenjutsu.

There has never been a need to make a distinction on what is considered kenjutsu and what is considered "nin"kenjutsu, or separate abilities + kenjutsu, which is actually something you made up. *They are all kenjutsu* as long as they are practicing swordsmanship. Any non-categorized ability used in combination is fair game.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Nov 16, 2013)

Rasengan was a nin-taijutsu in part 1. 

Now, its a fission-nuke, ninjutsu projectile

**


----------



## Turrin (Nov 16, 2013)

Kai said:


> We'll just have to settle on mutual disagreement then, as I definitely do not consider this CQC.
> 
> 
> 
> It's rather clear the technique was brought forth to introduce range to Neji's style, but there's no way I'd be able to convince you of that.


Than you are also disagreeing w/ the author. And here we Hinata using Air-Palm in even closer range anyway:
Link removed



> Why I brought up this point was because you used Hiashi being "top tier" in taijutsu to tie in with your following points in later posts that Hiashi is more dangerous than other abilities for CQC because his taijutsu is so lethal. This is not a statement being made in of itself.


Except I never said Haishi was Top Tier in Taijutsu, for the fifth time I specifically stated he wasn't; so again attacking a straw man.



> It matters because Sasuke did not use taijutsu as a style of choice of CQC against A, he used CQC related abilities such as Sharingan, Chidori and Raiton-guided Kusanagi. In no shape or form is your comparison comparing strict taijutsu styles when that isn't even a valid comparison. Therefore it's clear as day you were using Hiashi's taijutsu ability as a means to elevate his CQC prowess over Sasuke's, against A. This is a perfect example of you using taijutsu in trying to dictate who is better at CQC.


1. The context was Byakugan as a CQC Dojutsu vs Sharingan as a CQC Dojutsu; not Sasuke and Haishi. This was, but one point towards my overarching argument for why Byakugan was a superior CQC Dojutsu, NOT the sole point.

2. When it comes to Sasuke vs Haishi, I was stating Haishi could perform relatively as well as Sasuke performed against Ei. To, which again superior Taijutsu skill was one point as to why, NOT the sole point. 

3. Finally Taijutsu being a deciding factor for why in a comparison between 2 specific ninja one is superior in CQC to another, does NOT mean Taijutsu is ALWAYS the deciding factor, nor is that what is expressed at any point in our prior discussion. 

So again Straw man attacking or failing to comprehend my previous posts; you decide.



> First of all, there is zero proof that Byakugan is greater than Sharingan in CQC. That is an assumption of yours that hasn't even lifted off the ground yet. I've told you multiple times Byakugan is greater for the Jyuuken style of taijutsu, which revolves entirely around the insight of the inner body, and you've yet to counter with a single valid example in how Byakugan excels over Sharingan in overall CQC ability.


Go back to my original posts in the other thread and you will see that I gave multiple points as to why I consider Byakugan a better CQC Dojutsu than Sharingan. Points that you never fully addressed as you went off and made this thread attacking a straw-man, instead of continuing our prior discussion.



> It seems like I'm attacking multiple strawman arguments because objecting to your initial basis for those arguments such as "Byakugan excels over Sharingan in CQC" were completely unsubstantiated, leaving the rest of your succeeding, related claims to be just as illogical.


LOL... Byakugan excelling Sharingan has literally nothing to do w/ whether or not I claimed Haishi is "Top Tier" at Taijutsu. Taijutsu is the SOLE deciding factor in someone's CQC ability, etc... All of which you have been attacking in your posts, despite the fact that I never once made any of these claims. That is thee definition of attacking a straw man.

The Byakugan vs Sharingan in CQC thing was something we were discussing, but never finished discussing, because again you decide to turn the entire discussion into cluster-fuck mess that spans 2 threads, because you seemingly failed to grasp my points properly and began to attack straw-man on many different fronts.



> f that's what makes you believe I'm unfairly handicapping Hiashi, I'll allow Vacuum Palm for all the fights.


So you have eliminated the handicap, but it stills not a proper comparison of Jyuuken vs Kenjutsu. Rather it is a comparison of one character who uses Jyuuken to other characters who uses Kenjutsu. The difference being were not just comparing styles in this thread, but also each characters other stats as well, such as speed, strength, etc...



> There is no such distinction that separates sword abilities or supplement abilities with kenjutsu as separate from kenjutsu.
> 
> One's skill in wielding a sword is not what kenjutsu is. Kenjutsu is an entire field of swordsmanship and abilities that can go hand in hand with that field are not excluded from consideration.


In what way does a Sword regenerating have to due w/ swordsmanship? One's skill with wielding a sword = swordsmanship, the two are no different. Abilities that can supplement swordsmenship, are not products of swordsmanship, they are just that supplementary abilities. So at that point you are using Kenjutsu + supplementary abilities, not strictly Kenjutsu. Again it is the same reason why Kishi in FB II calls Raikage's combat style Nintaijutsu and not just Taijutsu, as the Ninjutsu techniques Raiton Armor is supplementing his Taijutsu



> Sure, moves with Chidori would be considered ninjutsu.
> 
> Raiton-flow, however, which is a skill obtained using one's own natural affinity, is not at all a ninjutsu.


DB III, _"When one uses ninjutsu, the act of including things such as Fire or Wind nature to chakra for added efficiency is called Nature Alteration. "_

DB III, _"Nature Alteration is the basis of ninjutsu"_



> Nobody listed a scale Turrin. What I'm telling you is a Jounin-level shinobi would not be Jounin level if he were capable of beating a Kage.
> 
> Nobody's denying there are cases of Jounin ranked shinobi that are Kage level.


So your saying anyone who can beat a Kage no matter the scenario and even if it's 1 time out hundreds of different matches is automatically Kage level themselves? If so than your definition of Kage level is extraordinarily broad and I don't see what precludes Haishi from it. 



> know you're opting for the neutral stance, and I'm disagreeing with that neutral stance. I disagree that it's possible for a Jounin level ninja to beat a ninja of the Kage level.
> 
> We're not talking about Jounin like Kakashi, Gai, or the Sannin.
> 
> ...


The problem is I don't agree with presenting Haishi as in the same league as the Kage Bodyguards, unless talking about Darui. I don't even agree w/ the supposition that all Kage Bodyguards are in the same league. Certainly a body guard like Akatsuchi has in no way demonstrated that he's in the same league as someone like Darui. 

Personally I do not think it's an outlandish claim that someone near the top of "Jonin" could put some pressure on someone near the bottom of "kage".  In my opinion Haishi is very near the top of what I'd consider "Jonin", which is why I think he could put pressure on someone I consider very near the bottom of what I'd consider "Kage". Now you might disagree w/ Ei being near the bottom of "Kage" or Haishi being near the top of "Jonin", but what I'd like to ask is if you can at least agree that someone near the bottom of one class of Shinobi (in this case "kage") can be pressured by someone near the top of the next closest class of Shinobi (in this case "jonin")?



> There has never been a need to make a distinction on what is considered kenjutsu and what is considered "nin"kenjutsu, or separate abilities + kenjutsu, which is actually something you made up. They are all kenjutsu as long as they are practicing swordsmanship. Any non-categorized ability used in combination is fair game.


They aren't practicing swordsmanship tho. They are practicing Ninjutsu in some cases and in other cases they aren't practicing anything at all, rather the sword itself just has an innate ability worked into it (theoretically from another person at some point in history practicing Ninjutsu when crafting the sword itself). 

Yes Ninkenjutsu is a terminology the author has not used directly himself, but based on how he defined Ei's style as nintaijutsu, it makes sense that he would classify the combos of Ninjutsu and Kenjutsu you have referenced as ninkenjutsu, considering his prior rhetoric.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Nov 17, 2013)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> Sasuke - Loss.
> Kaiten doesn't have any specific elemental advantages over Sasuke's Raiton-infused blade.* He'll slice right through the chakra defense*. Sasuke's Sharingan also ensures he doesn't take any hits should Hiashi preform a counterattack. Also note that Sasuke can also manifest a sword from his chidori, which has at least 5 times the range of his normal weapon.
> 
> Kisame - Loss.
> ...



 Seriously?

And really, what of the person holding those swords??

Not that Hiashi would even use kaiten in a swordfight, but still, its the principle of the matter you're presenting...that didn't make you slant your eyebrow when u typed it ?...3 times...?

Do raikiri & dynamic entry counter kaiten too? smh...


.


----------



## Kai (Nov 17, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Than you are also disagreeing w/ the author. And here we Hinata using Air-Palm in even closer range anyway:
> sharingan.


Okay. 

Vacuum Palm is fair game and I lifted the restriction on it yesterday.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Except I never said Haishi was Top Tier in Taijutsu, for the fifth time I specifically stated he wasn't; so again attacking a straw man.


In a manner of speaking.

>"Hiashi is closer to top tier in taijutsu than A is to the top tier in speed."

What does that tell anyone who seems to acknowledge A's speed as of the most elite level unlike yourself?




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> 1. The context was Byakugan as a CQC Dojutsu vs Sharingan as a CQC Dojutsu; not Sasuke and Haishi. This was, but one point towards my overarching argument for why Byakugan was a superior CQC Dojutsu, NOT the sole point.
> 
> 2. When it comes to Sasuke vs Haishi, I was stating Haishi could perform relatively as well as Sasuke performed against Ei. To, which again superior Taijutsu skill was one point as to why, NOT the sole point.
> 
> ...


1. You implying Hiashi is a top tier in taijutsu speaks volumes on how you believe CQC will play out, when you tried to stress taijutsu as a major facet of CQC.

2. Taijutsu *was* your sole point, because not only was it the only factor you decided to bring forth to represent your stance, taijutsu is Hiashi's sole point in combat. 

3. This sounds like a really poor excuse on your end Turrin. You don't need to play a neutral stance now when prior you clearly heavily favored and used Hiashi's taijutsu in CQC above other CQC abilities to outline how you thought superiority in CQC would be unraveled.

I'm just pointing out you comparing Hiashi's taijutsu to Sasuke's when Sasuke did not use taijutsu but his own CQC techniques against A is faulty logic.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> LOL... Byakugan excelling Sharingan has literally nothing to do w/ whether or not I claimed Haishi is "Top Tier" at Taijutsu. Taijutsu is the SOLE deciding factor in someone's CQC ability, etc... All of which you have been attacking in your posts, despite the fact that I never once made any of these claims. That is thee definition of attacking a straw man.


>Says Byakugan excels Sharingan in CQC
>Says Taijutsu is a major facet of CQC
>Says Byakugan has the most/2nd most dangerous taijutsu style
>Says Hiashi is top tier/close to top tier in taijutsu

You're telling me hyping Hiashi's taijutsu has nothing to do with Byakugan excelling over Sharingan in CQC when you considered taijutsu a major facet of CQC 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So you have eliminated the handicap, but it stills not a proper comparison of Jyuuken vs Kenjutsu. Rather it is a comparison of one character who uses Jyuuken to other characters who uses Kenjutsu. *The difference being were not just comparing styles in this thread, but also each characters other stats as well, such as speed, strength, etc...*


All of which can be due to supplemental abilities, which are all fair game when discussing kenjutsu. 

Just as Byakugan is when discussing Jyuuken taijutsu.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> In what way does a Sword regenerating have to due w/ swordsmanship? One's skill with wielding a sword = swordsmanship, the two are no different. Abilities that can supplement swordsmenship, are not products of swordsmanship, they are just that supplementary abilities. So at that point you are using Kenjutsu + supplementary abilities, not strictly Kenjutsu. Again it is the same reason why Kishi in FB II calls Raikage's combat style Nintaijutsu and not just Taijutsu, as the Ninjutsu techniques Raiton Armor is supplementing his Taijutsu


Supplementary abilities include skills, inherent abilities, and dojutsu which can be used to enhance *any* ninja arts, and it would still be classified as such.

A's fighting style is combining two already established ninja arts to give birth to a combination style.

You trying to separate non-categorized supplement abilities is just a personal belief you hold entirely outside of the manga. The manga makes no exclusions on any of these abilities.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> DB III, _"When one uses ninjutsu, the act of including things such as Fire or Wind nature to chakra for added efficiency is called Nature Alteration. "_
> 
> DB III, _"Nature Alteration is the basis of ninjutsu"_


Who is denying that nature alteration is the basis for ninjutsu?

Are you actually trying to convince anyone that *chakra flow* is a ninjutsu? 

At this point you're severely mishandling databook entries.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So your saying anyone who can beat a Kage no matter the scenario and even if it's 1 time out hundreds of different matches is automatically Kage level themselves? If so than your definition of Kage level is extraordinarily broad and I don't see what precludes Haishi from it.


Who cares how many fights out of 100 they win? That is a measure totally irrelevant to a discussion of power level.

A Jounin level is not beating a Kage level because their "level" is already sorted to be in that range. So no, Hiashi doesn't stand much of a chance against any Kage we've seen in the manga.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> The problem is I don't agree with presenting Haishi as in the same league as the Kage Bodyguards, unless talking about Darui. I don't even agree w/ the supposition that all Kage Bodyguards are in the same league. Certainly a body guard like Akatsuchi has in no way demonstrated that he's in the same league as someone like Darui.


Even if you don't agree Kage Bodyguards aren't in the same league, they are more powerful than Chuunins and less powerful than Kages which means at worst they span from low Jounin level to Elite Jounin level.

A spectrum Hiashi has no problem fitting into.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Personally I do not think it's an outlandish claim that someone near the top of "Jonin" could put some pressure on someone near the bottom of "kage".  In my opinion Haishi is very near the top of what I'd consider "Jonin", which is why I think he could put pressure on someone I consider very near the bottom of what I'd consider "Kage". Now you might disagree w/ Ei being near the bottom of "Kage" or Haishi being near the top of "Jonin", but what I'd like to ask is if you can at least agree that someone near the bottom of one class of Shinobi (in this case "kage") can be pressured by someone near the top of the next closest class of Shinobi (in this case "jonin")?


Yeah, one of the weakest Kages in the manga was given the liberty to display highly pressuring MS Sasuke and KCM Naruto with his speed and power 

I'm starting to see you like to shift your claims a lot, and try to do this as subtle as possible.

>"I don't know why you can't see a Jounin beating a Kage"

to

>"I don't find it outlandish that the top of Jounin can pressure someone at the bottom of Kage"

Your claims do not hold a consistent nature over time. And you blame me for straw-manning your arguments?




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> They aren't practicing swordsmanship tho. They are practicing Ninjutsu in some cases and in other cases they aren't practicing anything at all, rather the sword itself just has an innate ability worked into it (theoretically from another person at some point in history practicing Ninjutsu when crafting the sword itself).


You trying to separate abilities with swordsmanship is just you generating an imaginary classification.

Funny how you consider chakra flow ninjutsu when even the most basic samurai practice such skills, and they do not practice ninjutsu.


----------



## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

I can't actually see him winning any of these scenarios.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 17, 2013)

Kai said:


> In a manner of speaking.
> .


"In a manner of speaking" is BS-speak for "I've been attacking a straw man for the past nine posts and only now just realized it". Seriously, Kai just stop trolling, I used to have such a high opinion of you as a poster in the BD, but my opinion of you has dropped so low after this.



> >"Hiashi is closer to top tier in taijutsu than A is to the top tier in speed."
> 
> What does that tell anyone who seems to acknowledge A's speed as of the most elite level unlike yourself?


It doesn't tell them I consider Haishi to be Top Tier, thats for sure. What it does tell them is you got butthurt over a comment I made and decided to troll, attacking a straw-man for past nine posts.



> You implying Hiashi is a top tier in taijutsu speaks volumes on how you believe CQC will play out, when you tried to stress taijutsu as a major facet of CQC.


I implied no such thing, your post itself shows that. So you just continue to attack a straw man.



> Taijutsu was your sole point, because not only was it the only factor you decided to bring forth to represent your stance,


Straw man go back and re-read my posts



> aijutsu is Hiashi's sole point in combat.


Haishi has nothing, but Taijutsu. Byakugan doesn't do other things, but Jyuuken? Okay, whatever you say bro.



> This sounds like a really poor excuse on your end Turrin. You don't need to play a neutral stance now when prior you clearly heavily favored and used Hiashi's taijutsu in CQC above other CQC abilities to outline how you thought superiority in CQC would be unraveled.


Straw man as I never said that.



> I'm just pointing out you comparing Hiashi's taijutsu to Sasuke's when Sasuke did not use taijutsu but his own CQC techniques against A is faulty logic.


Which has no relevance to my points. 



> >Says Byakugan excels Sharingan in CQC
> >Says Taijutsu is a major facet of CQC
> >Says Byakugan has the most/2nd most dangerous taijutsu style
> >Says Hiashi is top tier/close to top tier in taijutsu
> ...


No i'm telling you it has something to do with it, but not everything to do w/ it. Which is the difference between my real point and the straw-man you keep attacking 



> All of which can be due to supplemental abilities, which are all fair game when discussing kenjutsu.
> 
> Just as Byakugan is when discussing Jyuuken taijutsu.


Of course Byakugan is when discussing Jyuuken, because that is how Jyuuken works. Kenjutsu does not work off supplementary abilities, they supplement it, hence the name.



> Supplementary abilities include skills, inherent abilities, and dojutsu which can be used to enhance any ninja arts, and it would still be classified as such.
> 
> A's fighting style is combining two already established ninja arts to give birth to a combination style.
> 
> You trying to separate non-categorized supplement abilities is just a personal belief you hold entirely outside of the manga. The manga makes no exclusions on any of these abilities.


Of course supplementary abilities include that stuff, but supplementary is an entirely different categorization from Kenjutsu.



> Who is denying that nature alteration is the basis for ninjutsu?
> 
> Are you actually trying to convince anyone that chakra flow is a ninjutsu?
> 
> At this point you're severely mishandling databook entries.


The DB entry shows that nature alteration is part of Ninjutusu, not Kenjutsu



> Who cares how many fights out of 100 they win? That is a measure totally irrelevant to a discussion of power level.


My point was never "power level" to begin with. You brought that shit up. My point was that Haishi could pull off a win, which is why the how many fights out 100 is totally germane to what I've been speaking towards.



> A Jounin level is not beating a Kage level because their "level" is already sorted to be in that range. So no, Hiashi doesn't stand much of a chance against any Kage we've seen in the manga.


So your saying out of 100 or even 1,000,000 fights occuring over a course of 1,000,000 different scenarios a Jonin would never be able to beat a Kage?



> Even if you don't agree Kage Bodyguards aren't in the same league, they are more powerful than Chuunins and less powerful than Kages which means at worst they span from low Jounin level to Elite Jounin level.
> 
> A spectrum Hiashi has no problem fitting into.


If we defined the spectrum that way than sure, but that is a massive spectrum.



> Yeah, one of the weakest Kages in the manga was given the liberty to display highly pressuring MS Sasuke and KCM Naruto with his speed and power


He fought a Sasuke who was in the process of still mastering his MS. He clearly had knowledge on MS/Sharingan and Sasuke. Finally he had to sacrifice arm to pressure Sasuke that much. I see most Kages doing just as well, if not better in that scenario. 

Against Naruto, Naruto was using a form he just gained as well, and that wasn't even a fight. 

So basically all of this is what I expect any worth their salt as a Kage to be capable of doing.



> I'm starting to see you like to shift your claims a lot, and try to do this as subtle as possible.
> 
> >"I don't know why you can't see a Jounin beating a Kage"
> 
> ...


My claim is very consistent. I could see a scenario where Haishi beats Ei, though I find Ei's victory more likely most of the time. However in scenario's where Ei wins, I see Haishi at least pressuring him to a certain extent. I don't see how that is hard to understand.



> You trying to separate abilities with swordsmanship is just you generating an imaginary classification.


I'm not separating anything, I'm trying to give a name to make it easier to quantify the combos of Ninjutsu + Kenjutsu and Supplementary Jutsu + Kenjutsu that you keep incorrectly referring to, as pure Kenjutsu.



> Funny how you consider chakra flow ninjutsu when even the most basic samurai practice such skills, and they do not practice ninjutsu.


I never said chakra flow is Ninjutsu. I said Nature Alteration is. Not sure how you'd classify chakra flow, but definitely not Kenjutsu as it has nothing to do with swordsmanship.


----------



## Kai (Nov 18, 2013)

No ill will Turrin. Maybe I am misrepresenting your arguments without intention, but I did explicitly show when you slightly changed your claims from what you said before. In any case, I'll just leave it at the fact that a) I completely agree that Hiashi is one of the most excellent taijutsu users and the same with b) Jyuuken is one of the if not the deadliest taijutsu style in the manga. Now where you and I differ is I don't believe for a second this will even possibly be beating Kage levels within the vastly broader dimension of CQC. For example, A's nintaijutsu combination is simply on a different level than Hiashi's taijutsu. 

Plus honestly, if Vaccuum Palm was designed for 0-10 meters, you'd think the Hyuugas would keep blasting opponents with forces of air in CQC or possibly annihilating the inner body than relying on pinpoint fingertip strikes  who knows if it can be spammed either?

That's pretty much it.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 18, 2013)

Kai said:


> No ill will Turrin. Maybe I am misrepresenting your arguments without intention, but I did explicitly show when you slightly changed your claims from what you said before. In any case, I'll just leave it at the fact that a) I completely agree that Hiashi is one of the most excellent taijutsu users and the same with b) Jyuuken is one of the if not the deadliest taijutsu style in the manga. Now where you and I differ is I don't believe for a second this will even possibly be beating Kage levels within the vastly broader dimension of CQC. For example, A's nintaijutsu combination is simply on a different level than Hiashi's taijutsu.
> 
> Plus honestly, if Vaccuum Palm was designed for 0-10 meters, you'd think the Hyuugas would keep blasting opponents with forces of air in CQC or possibly annihilating the inner body than relying on pinpoint fingertip strikes  who knows if it can be spammed either?
> 
> That's pretty much it.


Two things. Firstly you didn't show me changing my claims, I just think your still confused as to what my original claim was. Secondly I don't disagree that Ei's Nintaijutsu > Haishi's Jyuuken, I think we simply disagree about how big the gap is and how effective Haishi's Jyuuken can be against Ei's NinTaijutsu. The main reason we seem to disagree is not about any specifics on how there abilities match up, but simply the fact that you seem to believe a "Kage level" can never loose to or be pressured by anyone who is beneath "Kage level". This is something I inherently disagree w/ though, because even among Jonin, there are many Ninja that have hax enough techniques where they could kill a Kage depending on how the scenario plays out and how their ability meshes w/ the Kage's. To give an examples:

Most of the time Kages are going to own Dan and outperform Dan in many different situations. But if Dan ends up in an ideal scenario, than I could see Dan having a chance to beat a Kage. For example if Dan were to fight a Kage in a dense forest where he could hide his body away and use Ghost Mode from afar, I don't see every Kage winning 100 out of 100 battles in that scenario.

To me the same applies here w/ Haishi and Ei in the scenario Dr. White Set up. Ei's Nintaijutsu style's best attribute is the fact that Ei can react to and evade most attacks. However if Ei has no knowledge in Dr. Whites thread. W/o knowledge of Air-Palm, his evasion speed is not really going to help him as he'll have no way of knowing a simple open handed strike is going to cross all the way to Mid-Distance, and so he's probably not going to be able to evade it. Kaiten can also be dangerous to Ei, because if he hits it the force of his attack magnified will be redirected at him (if i'm remembering Neji vs Naruto battle correctly), so w/o knowledge he can also charge into an attack like that by mistake. 

Ei's likelihood of dicking around in R1 or charging into attacks like this is also increased by the mind-set that Dr.White gave him in the thread; "Ei feels superior to the 2 jounin." Finally the location itself is highly advantageous to Haishi in this battle. The tree's Block Ei's LOS, but they do not block Haishi's due to Byakugan, giving Haishi many more options for attack and defense than Ei, in this location. The starting distance itself 20m, is also begging Haishi to use his Air Palm to snipe at Ei. So do I think in most scenario's Haishi would loose, sure, but I don't in Dr.White's highly advantageous scenario, Haishi has no chance to win some off the time, if we played the match out 100 times, and at least, especially in this scenario pressure him. And for me the fact that Ei is "Kage level" and Haishi is "Jonin/Elite Jonin level" doesn't change this. 

That was all I was saying this whole time, before points became muddled. 

Thirdly, as for Ei's overall placement on the power hierarchy, like I said before it's just my opinion formed from here some strong arguments from other posters as to why Ei's lack of versatility makes him inferior, but I'm still open to other view points. If you want to explain to me why Ei is better than other Kages on an individual basis, than I'm willing to read through your points.


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## Rocky (Nov 18, 2013)

Turrin said:


> If you want to explain to me why Ei is better than other Kages on an individual basis, than I'm willing to read through your points.




The Raikage's skillset isn't dependent on versatility, but it doesn't have to be. Mangekyou Obito and Minato are stronger than 95% of Kage, yet they are very one dimensional. Gai and Kakashi are portrayed equal rivals, yet Kakashi has "a thousand" options and Gai has what, three? Ei's abilities allow him to close any (reasonable) distance practically instantaneously, and the fight becomes a close quarters brawl against a Nintaijutsu master with Susano'o-cracking strength and accelerated reflexes. That's the skillset of a specialist. Simple but deadly. There are incredibly powerful characters in fiction that have little versatility because they have that one "power" that makes them so unstoppable. The Hulk? The Flash? Ring a bell? The amount of options doesn't matter nearly as much as the specifics of those options. 

How are ninja supposed to attempt their Ninutsu or Genjutsu when faced with a situation like that of Minato? Naruto? Juugo? Look at Mifune's character. He's a guy, without lighting boosted reflexes, that runs around cockblocking the Ninjutsu of former legends in the Shinobi world. Ei is even faster than Mifune, and his fists are just as deadly as a blade.The Raikage can get in your face with top grade speed, and from there, seals are nearly impossible to perform. One can only attempt to guard, but he has the strength to either punch through it or just take your arms off.  

There are ways around that of course, like ridiculous durability, seal-less Jutsu, greater speed and strength, etc. Funny how all of Ei's opponents have either had a powerful defensive Jutsu that doesn't require any seals (or even movement) to use, or they've been faster than him, huh? Most don't have that luxury though, and would be run down. 

Think about it; what happened when Gai went gates against Kisame? The difference in speed became to great for Kisame to deal with. He couldn't swing his sword in time to counter Gai's kick, let alone cast a Jutsu. So, what would happen when a Kage reflexively slower than Kisame (who btw is a physical beast) goes up against a Shinobi faster than Gai? Death.

Also, as I mentioned before, there are counters to his speed. However, the Raikage was gifted with Chakra comparable to that of a Bijuu. Basically, you can't outlast him. That is _bad_ for most because his speed allows him to dodge even the quickest of attacks. Amaterasu wasn't even fast enough, so the majority of displayed Jutsu are going to miss, and Ei can keep running all day. Very few can utilize Ninjutsu constantly without tiring, so Raikages will nearly always win battles of attrition, should a fight come to that.

As Mifune displayed, raw speed can hard check Ninjutsu, and as Gai displayed against Kisame, even the most skilled physical fighters an become helpless in the face of overwhelming speed. So, as with all specialists, you need the right tools to fight someone like the Raikage. If you lack them, you loose. If you have them, then it's a match. Let's look at the current Kage:


_Tsunade_
She has the seal-less Byakugo, and greater strength, so she is perfect for fighting him. She is still helpless against his speed though, so the match can go either way. It is dependent on the knowledge stipulation.

_Gaara_
He has the seal-less sand Jutsu, but in my opinion, this goes like Lee vs. Gaara. Only this time, Gaara's sand armor falls to the Raikage's blows. As with most matches though, circumstances can change the outcome. Put Gaara in a desert with knowledge, and he has a far greater chance of winning. "Can Gaara hurt Ei? " is what decides that fight.

_Mei_
She dies unless the distance is gargantuan. What would she do in Juugo's situation? There's no time for handseals. She would be as helpless as Hanzo was against Mifune, except she cannot compete with Ei in close combat like Hanzo could with the Samurai leader. That's the benefit of blazing speed, the ability to _stop_ your opponent from using their dangerous Jutsu or even basic counter-attacks. 
I feel like that fact is overlooked. Do you know why American Football teams employ blitzes? To stop the opposing quarterback from being able to make a throw, so that opposing playmakers don't have a chance at the ball. Everyone in the Battledome assumes Kage can get off their Jutsu for free against top line speedsters just 'cause, when there characters in the Manga who use speed as a _direct counter_ to Ninjutsu. That proves I'm not just making things up here. I'm talking about a demonstrated theme in the Manga we discuss. Mei needs to use time consuming handseals to do _anything_, and that doesn't fly against a man that can seemingly teleport to your face and rip through any guard to throw up in desperation.

Onoki
Seal-less flight allows him to keep away from The Raikage. I personally don't believe Onoki can use any Jinton large enough to take out the Raikage from a football field away (and he definitely won't try until he's attempted smaller Jinton techniques first, resulting is lower Chakra levels). Jinton isn't a discrete technique; Ei would have plenty of time to see it coming and avoid. Therefore, Raikage wins by attrition (or they tie). I know you don't agree, but let's not get into that. Onoki would do the best out of the Kage against him, and Onoki at least has a chance.



Kage-level guys like Kakashi, Deidara, any Mizukage, Hiruzen, Jiraiya, Hanzo...these guys don't have the techniques to even begin fighting the Raikage. The Kage that do still have to find a way to hit him, which even a guy with the _Mangekyou Sharingan_ couldn't do. Ei may not be flashy, but excellent speed, strength, durability, and endurance can go very far. Superman anyone? 

KN0 punched his way out of Haku's hax mirros, the raw power of KN6 & KN8 were the solutions to Pain's Deva Realm hax, BM Naruto ran really fast to deflect 5 Bijuudama, Susano'o's durability and strength said no to Danzou's entire hax'd arsenal, Bee just up'd his speed and strength and punched right through Kisame's hax Chakra absorption (Samehada luckily has a convenient healing ability), Ei dodged Sasuke's undodgable Jutsu with a D-Rank Shunshin because he's that fast....the list goes on.

Physical might is just as important as hax in the Manga. Jubito in his debut was shown first blitzing Tobirama and obliterating his body with one swing (Tsunade strength right there)....before any of his hax came in. Both have their place in the Manga, and Ei isn't any worse because he relies on just the physical side of combat when the vast majority of Kage level Shinobi have limited speed, strength, or skill in Taijutsu. Tell me, despite their vast, unique arsenals, who was the strongest rookie out of the 12 at the Chuunin exams?


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2013)

@Rocky

The difference is a-lot of the characters you are comparing Ei to are actually much more versatile than Ei. Superman has absolute shit ton of abilities beyond just being fast and strong. Even if we just took Superman's flight and Lazer abilities for example that gives him a Long-Range and Mid-Range game Ei has nowhere near the Naruto-verse equivalent off. The Hulk also is more versatile than Ei, even the fact that he can super-jump to astronomical heights and is so strong he can hurl skyscrapers at people offers a long to mid-range game that Ei doesn't have. Not to mention in the case of Superman and the Hulk they are both almost nearly invincible durability wise in their respective verses. Juubiobito would be a close comparison to them durability wise than Ei, in terms of how nigh invicible they are in their verses.

To use the Naruto-world example you provided of Gai, he is also much more versatile than Ei, in that MP and AF offer him a Mid to Long Range game that Ei lacks. Not to mention he can use summoned turtles for foot holds to jump higher into the sky and his raw power potential vastly exceeds Ei w/  at  least the 8th Gate given the fact that he indicated he could stop 5 Bijuu Bombs w/ it.  So I don't think any of these examples mesh well with Ei. Same thing w/ Obito and Minato, both have far greater versatility than Ei.

The Mifune example is fine, but Mifune started that battle w/ Hanzo in CQC (Hanzo was also rusty). Speedsters are indeed very dominating in situations where the battle begins in CQC, but to me that is one scenario in which battles can occur and is not the most common scenario, as usually one or both parties become aware of each other long before CQC is engaged, which gives them to the option to prepare for the encounter before they find themselves in a situation where someone like Ei or Mifune is attacking them before they are able to make a single Hand-seal. Maybe if they don't have knowledge of Ei's threat, than they might still carelessly engage him in CQC, but part of the problem of being Raikage is that I'm personally expecting most people to have knowledge on the fact that Ei is going to be a beast at CQC, based on his fame or the overall fame of the Raikage. So I don't see a scenario where someone is completely ignorant of Ei's CQC threat coming up very often, sans a confrontation w/ newer gen shinobi, like in Sasuke's case.

And that's basically the problem for me, I don't doubt that Ei can put up a good fight and have a  shot at beating many Kages if the battle starts in a position where CQC happens at the start, but to me there is going to be more scenarios where that is not the case than there are going to be where that is the case, and in those scenario's Ei is going to be less effective, if not much less effective than most of the Kages. On-top of that there are many scenarios that even when things do start closer, that lOS will be blocked by Trees, buildings, etc... so that is another issue. And even when Ei does get the option for CQC at the start him going max speed right from the jump is questionable, so Ei himself while dicking around w/ R1 could give his enemies the chance to escape out of CQC.

Furthermore, I basically think there is a certain type of poster on the BD that tends to rate characters specifically on the idea that most matches start at 5m-10m and a character uses their strongest attacks right off the bat or pretty soon into the match, I'm not going a debate about whether that's correct or not here, but it seems to me most of the logic of your post is based on that assumption. Which Okay yeah if we look at it that way, Ei probably would be one of the more dangerous Kages, but personally I don't find that logic compelling whatsoever, because honestly based on that logic Ei could beat Haishirama by R2 blitzing him and punching his head off at 5m, but I don't see the manga even coming close to indicating were suppose to see Ei as > Hashirama. That is an extreme example, but highlights why I don't like this logic. 

So i'm not really going to change my mind on Ei based on arguments that revolve around, he blitz's before someone can cast a Jutsu or do anything (which he really has never done even once in the manga). The kind of arguments I'm looking for are not how Ei performs when making the best move and at his best range, but rather how he would cope in other scenarios. How would he deal w/ a flying enemy an enemy that blocks his LOS, those types of scenarios.

You did touch on that slights w/ the whole he will dodge and bring it into a stamina contest, but I really have not seen anyone in this manga win via a drawing things into an endurance struggle that I can recall. So that seems like an unlikely conclusion to me from a story stand-point and from a BD stand-point having to sit back and take or dodge all of your enemies attacks, strategies, etc... is always a bad position to be in and i'm probably not betting on that guys victory.


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## Rocky (Nov 19, 2013)

If you're looking for how Ei would bring range into his arsenal, he could employ the tactic that you suggested the Hulk can use; throwing around giant objects. He can't throw cities around, but he isn't fighting Marval high tiers. Speaking of Marval, Hulk and Superman are not even close, I repeat, _not even close_ to invincible in their verse (Marval and DC respectively). I'm just pointing out how a character can _mainly_ rely on close quarters fighting and still be effective (The Hulk and Supes do). 

The Raikage doesn't have much range game, but, as I've been trying to point out, he circumvents that by _immediately _getting into his comfortable range. That's what a specialist is supposed to do. Ei's Shunshin is so good that all he has to do is use it, from any reasonable distance, and the fight can become a CQC match whether opposing Kage likes it or not.

Like, you must think Mifune's "attack before the Shinobi makes a handseal" thing consistently fails. You can't say it isn't a likely tactic in the Manga when Kishimoto has a character revolving around doing just that with speed alone. The Raikage is faster than Mifune, so he should be capable of doing the same thing; negating Ninjutsu.


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't see any object Ei can throw being an issue for Kages, he really is no hulk. Hulk and sups being invcible or near invincible depends on the iteration of the dc verse were talking about. But in case were they aren't than they aren't even close to the strongest anyway so that becomes an irrelevant point to begin with. 

I don't think Ei is really going to blitz any Kage before they can use a jutsu. Mifunes style revolves around that while Ei is a lot more lax in his fight style ie he does not tend to use max speed from the jump and I don't think he can close distance as quickly as you do. Ei really has never blitzed someone before they can use a handseal. Even when going. Max speed he quickest agains Minato there was still time for minato to throw a Kunai, than throw more Kunai, talk, etc That Is more than enough time for any Kage to use a handseal. Mifune on the other hand is much more aggressive in stoping the enemy from making a move, that's the difference to me between the two. Than there is also the issue of when the match does not start at short or w/ clear Los that I don't see being given any attention here

Edit: we also have no clue how the speed of mifunes iai attacks stack up to Ei's speed.


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## Rocky (Nov 19, 2013)

Mifune and Hanzou talked plenty, and Mifune appeared no more aggressive in that fight that Ei did in any of his fights.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 19, 2013)

Can hiashi use shit like kaiten or air palm or 256 hit combo ?

Because if so, he'll probably defeat everyone on the list except Kirabi and Pain.


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## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Can hiashi use shit like kaiten or air palm or 256 hit combo ?
> 
> Because if so, he'll probably defeat everyone on the list except Kirabi and Pain.



Honeslt If they can't use their jutsu I don't see anyone winning this. Raiton flow is useless vs Kaiten, and full body blow can knock swords away/re direct life threatning hits. Air Palm is a good ranged/CqC lifesaver, and Trigrams allows them to focus and have better perception. Hell Neji in pt. 1 was dodging dozens of projectiles at one time, and crossing long in under 5 seconds. Hiashi is the elite jounin version of that..

I say Kisame with Samaheda 8-9/10 times, and Tobirama with FTG 9/10 times are the only one's who decisively beat him with kenjutsu oriented offense. Sasuke and Killer Bee can go arround 50/50 thanks to their speed and great reactions.


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Mifune and Hanzou talked plenty, and Mifune appeared no more aggressive in that fight that Ei did in any of his fights.


Yes they talked, but Mifune was specifically looking out for Hanzo's attempts to use Jutsu and he the instant Hanzo went to use a Jutsu Mifune aggressively blitz him in that moment:
Roy Mustang vs. Monster Envy
Roy Mustang vs. Monster Envy

Ei on the other hand has never been shown to employ this strategy, where he blitz's someone interrupting their attempts to cast Jutsu. Against Sasuke he just stood there allowing Sasuke to do his thing:
Roy Mustang vs. Monster Envy
Roy Mustang vs. Monster Envy

In-fact Ei was most just sitting back and responding to Sasuke's attacks not trying to preempt them in any way and spent a good portion of that match in R1, not using his max-speed. 

Against Minato, where he resorted to max-speed to fastest he still just stood there while Minato spread out FTG, before he attacked. So even there he didn't try to interrupt Minato's set up. 

So I don't see any reason to believe Ei is going to suddenly go max-speed and blitz a Kage the moment he sees them going to use a Jutsu, that's Mifune's thing, not Ei's. And that's assuming the match happens at Short-Range w/ clear LOS. If it happens at Mid, Long, or Short W/o Clear LOS, than I don't think he has the ability to reach the opponent before they use a hand-seal anyway. 

So most (if not all Kages) are going to be able to get off at least 1 or a few Jutsu (depending on when Ei starts using max-speed), before Ei starts hard-core blitzing them. And most Kages really only need 1 Jutsu, to protect themselves from Ei's blitz. 

Mei - Lays Down Demonic Mist or Acidic Mist, and she's good to go
Any of the Kazekages - Fly Away or Create Sand/Iron/Gold Orb to protect them (Bushin also work)
Any of the Tsuchikages - Fly Away
2nd Mizukage - Summons Clam
Minato & Tobirama - set up FTG
Tsunade - Activates Byakugo
etc...


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## Rocky (Nov 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Mei - Lays Down Demonic Mist or Acidic Mist, and she's good to go
> Any of the Kazekages - Fly Away or Create Sand/Iron/Gold Orb to protect them (Bushin also work)
> Any of the Tsuchikages - Fly Away
> 2nd Mizukage - Summons Clam
> ...




Ei actually has blitzed somebody before a Jutsu could be completed. 


If Mei finishes her hand seals, it doesn't mean the mist automatically blinds him. She still has to spew it, and that isn't happening when he can close a distance right away, as demonstrated against Naruto and Juugo.

Muu and Onoki could fly away given enough of a distance, yes.

Mizukage may summon the clam, but then he's get punched by a lighting covered fist before the clam finishes spreading its mist. You're just banking on the assumption that Ei will stand around until his opponent is finished doing what they want to do, which isn't always the case.

Tobirama doesn't have a mobile FTG.

Tsunade can activate Byakugo as Ei activates RnY. Both are seal-less, so they should be somewhat comparable in activation time.


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Ei actually has blitzed somebody before a Jutsu could be completed.


Come on rocky, not only was the distance point blank there, but were talking about a Fodder White Zetsu clone, the same type of clones that get blitz'd by people like Tenten in the war. Heck that Clone most likely couldn't even use Kisame's Jutsu in the first place.



> If Mei finishes her hand seals, it doesn't mean the mist automatically blinds him. She still has to spew it, and that isn't happening when he can close a distance right away, as demonstrated against Naruto and Juugo.
> .


Mei spews the mist quickly and again I don't see Ei going max speed blitz the moment Mei starts spewing mist. Heck he'd be kind of dumb to do that since it could be acidic mist and he'd be charging to his death or severe injury.



> Mizukage may summon the clam, but then he's get punched by a lighting covered fist before the clam finishes spreading its mist. You're just banking on the assumption that Ei will stand around until his opponent is finished doing what they want to do, which isn't always the case.


Again if your only argument is he blitz'd a White Zetsu clone, who was pretending to use a Jutsu, that really is not going to fly w/ me.

In every other instance he gave his enemies more than enough time to complete the actions I'm asking of the Kages here. 

Mizukage could tank Ei's blows w/ Suika No Jutsu until the Clam's Mist filled the area anyway.



> Tobirama doesn't have a mobile FTG.


KB? Simply pulling out a Kunai and marking it, than throwing it. He's not quite as fast as Minato, but he doesn't have to be.

And again all of your points are predicated on the assumption that this match starts at short w/ clear LOS, which excludes what would happen if the match started under other conditions

Anyway probably going to be my last response to you on the topic, because like I said before I've heard the whole Ei blitz someone argument before and I think it's too narrow of a view point, that  I don't think reflects enough of the IC nature of EI or other potential scenarios, so really this type of logic isn't going to convince me. Like I said the stuff I'd be interested to hear is how Ei deals w/ things outside his comfort zone or how he'd be more useful than other Kages in secenarios that are not CQC.


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