# Tobirama vs Minato: Who Wins



## MisterMinato23 (Jul 3, 2014)

I know this has probably been done numerous times but there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer for this fight and it's outcome. Who do you guys would win if they went all out with no restrictions and fought to win?

Location: konoha woods
Distance: 30 meters
Both have full knowledge on each other
No restrictions
Both going all out at 100% to win


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

What edos does Tobrama have?
Solely depends on that imo.


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2014)

With full knowledge on Tobirama's ET, Minato blitzes him and ends it.


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## krolk88 (Jul 3, 2014)

Minato blitzes tobirama?What?

I'd say its tobirama of the two that has better reflexes,as shown with his clone taking mindless obito's gudo dama in a time frame to which minato barely reacted...unless minato is in SM,he's slower to react than Tobi.

On topic:

Tobirama ET is jonin level,at most its what P1 chuunin exam oro did(elite jonin imo)

Both have full knowledge so it'd normally go as a match of speed...in which i'd favor minato if he manages to get to SM or tobirama if minato doesnt...but:

Tobirama has aoe suitons that remove markings from the ground,making it difficult for minato to FTG to good location,he also has his edos,and he'd likely use doton edos for some earth walls blocking FTG kunais.He can also use his edo explosion technique which is above everything minato has in DC.S/T Barrier isnt getting rid of suitons at all,SM Minato still stands a chance if he can somehow get a kunai close but i favor tobirama to win more times than not.

Tobirama high difficulty


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## ARGUS (Jul 3, 2014)

Minato wins high/extreme diff (it could go either way)

--they are both on par with each other however minatos use of FTG is more versatile in comparison to tobirama which is why i would give him the edge 

--tobirama having the edos could be helpful as he can make them use GKF before any marking are placed,, but then he would also be affected by the jutsus AOE, 

--minatos summons can also assist him and give him an opening


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2014)

I think this match up always comes down to who can the other first and place a marking on the other. Who ever does that is gonna have a great advantage that pays off later imo.


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## Ghost (Jul 3, 2014)

Minato will be the one tag first and then end the battle with Rasengan.


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

Tobirama might be a bit slower, however he makes up for it in this scenario as he is able to do more with full knowledge than Minato is do to his more tactical based mind. Tobirama also has a slightly longer attack range than Minato, by about 3-4 feet, which might not seem like much, but when you have 2 of the fastest people in the manga it matters a lot.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 3, 2014)

Alive:
Tobirama > Minato by a small margin

Edo form:
Minato > Tobirama

Minato has two crazy asspull powerups in his edo form and while he has performed better then Tobirama it has not been by a large margin like you would assume


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## Veracity (Jul 3, 2014)

Alive Tobirama is superior to alive base Minato assuming Tobirama doesn't give Minato the chance to use Sage mode( and assuming Minato doesnt even try to). Tobirama packed with low Kage level Edo is somewhere around KCM Minato's level but a bit lower. BM Minato absolutely shits on any form of Tobirama nuff said.


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## SharinganKisame (Jul 3, 2014)

Tobirama takes this high/extreme diff. His reflexes and sensory skills make up for the little speed advantage minato has with FTG. If Tobirama marks his edos he gets way deadlier than minato since he can teleport them and catch minato with a surprise gojo kibakufuda. Tobi can also make some clones and make them use some suitons with big AOE to add pressure on minato. Gamabunta is not enough for minato because some suiton suidanha should be enough to send him back to mt myobokou.


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## Kyu (Jul 3, 2014)

Minato's FTG is >>> Tobirama's

ET are countered by _Contract Seal_.

Despite not being born from a prestigious ninja clan like the Senju, Minato's natural reflexes/reactions exceed his predecessor's.

Tobirama's methodical nature makes this battle exceedingly difficult for Minato but given the Fourth's edge going in, he's crafty enough to take advantage of the situation & win with great difficulty.


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

> Minato's FTG is >>> Tobirama's


No, Minato's FTG is > Tobirama at an absolute maximum
Tobirama's FTG speed is equal, however the ability to react and use it Minato has a slight edge.
FTG is instantaneous teleportation, the 3 body guards FTG speed is the same as Tobirama and Minato's, however Minato and Tobirama are able to use it faster because of the ability to mold chakra in order to perform the technique. If the gap was that big we'd notice it, instead of being told in order to recognize it, that tells us the difference is minisule, but there. Much like the confrontation of KCM Naruto and Ei.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 3, 2014)

Minato is faster(in movement and ftg usage) and in a battle between speedsters that gives him the upper hand. Minato lands a killing blow after a high diff chase.


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## Veracity (Jul 3, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Minato's FTG is >>> Tobirama's
> 
> ET are countered by _Contract Seal_.
> 
> ...



How do you figure that Minato's FTG could be better then Tobiramas ?

And which form of Minato has better reactions then Tobirama ?


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## Rocky (Jul 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> How do you figure that Minato's FTG could be better then Tobiramas ?



Tobirama said so, _didn't he_?


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

You can't be faster than instantaneous teleportation, you can only be faster in the activation of instantaneous teleportation.


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## Kyu (Jul 3, 2014)

> Tobirama's *FTG speed* is equal, however the ability to react and use it Minato has a slight edge.
> *FTG is instantaneous teleportation,*



Teleportation=/=Speed

Unless you meant the user's reaction time that the jutsu itself activates upon.



> How do you figure that Minato's FTG could be better then Tobiramas ?



Custom made kunai, faster reactions & Tobirama's own admission. 



> And which form of Minato has better reactions then Tobirama ?



This one.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

Nothing much changed since last time



Minato just showed that he is also faster than 8th gate Guy, and from last chapter
his ability to cut the huge ass tree, even without his arms, something Tobirama couldn't accomplish
with his 2 arms and water jutsu.


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

> Minato just showed that he is also faster than 8th gate Guy


His FTG is faster, although Tobirama could replicate the feat easily. Minato is in no world faster than 8th Gate Gai, you can see the post that got deemed imba and a spite thread for everyone's consensous on that.


> and from last chapter
> his ability to cut the huge ass tree, even without his arms, something Tobirama couldn't accomplish
> with his 2 arms and water jutsu.


Tobirama's own admission
Excuse, me I can't hear you over the sound of you being outright wrong.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> His FTG is faster, although Tobirama could replicate the feat easily. Minato is in no world faster than 8th Gate Gai, you can see the post that got deemed imba and a spite thread for everyone's consensous on that.
> 
> Tobirama's own admission
> Excuse, me I can't hear you over the sound of you being outright wrong.



١- lol, no he can't. Minato shitted all over him when they arrived by a HUGE margin. 
Yes, Minato is faster and he already proved that in the manga.  
I don't know what post you mean, but I don't give a damn about what people thing. That's already canon.

2- "shit, they are too many" 
despite those branches are way smaller than those. 
Tobirama's own admission

and this f**er Minato, he did that without arms, and for an entire village. 
so, Minato's feats, still shit all over Tobirama once again. 

Minato's defeats Tobirama mid difficult at absolute worst. 
his feats, and hype are way beyond Tobirama.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Alive:
> Tobirama > Minato by a small margin
> 
> Edo form:
> ...



Just like how Tobirama got a craze asspull and was given the FTG out of no where? 

as for the last thing, so you admit that one armed Minato is still better than Tobirama? 
wonder what two arms would do.


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

> ١- lol, no he can't. Minato shitted all over him when they arrived by a HUGE margin.


I think you have some issues comprehending speed levels.


> Yes, Minato is faster and he already proved that in the manga.
> I don't know what post you mean, but I don't give a damn about what people thing. That's already canon.


Go, make a post saying Minato vs 8th Gate Gai in speed, go ahead, I dare you, in fact I'll make it if it's already canon. 


> 2- "shit, they are too many"
> despite those branches are way smaller than those.
> Tobirama's own admission


The tiny one's holding the people qualify as branches too ya know. How do you know which branches he cut? You don't so you assume it's the biggest one so you can give Minato the most wank.


> and this f**er Minato, he did that without arms, and for an entire village.


No, it is no where stated that he did, it is no where implied that he did. In fact it is implied that he failed and reacted the same what Tobirama did.


> so, Minato's feats, still shit all over Tobirama once again.
> 
> Minato's defeats Tobirama mid difficult at absolute worst.
> his feats, and hype are way beyond Tobirama.


No, just no. In no world is Tobirama getting mid diffed by Minato, only a person with a severe wanking issue and fanboyism would think that, look at all the other posters who are saying high diff / extreme high diff match. None of these posters have a hate or love for Minato, you however are biased and should stay out of this thread before you embarass yourself further.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 3, 2014)

It's a close fight, but I'd give Minato the slight advantage.
Because their arsenals are very similar, the victory will be nothing short of extreme difficulty; it can realistically go either way. I haven't factored in Tobirama's Edo Tensei, though, which is capable of giving him the advantage. 

If Kishi does an asspull and gives Tobirama the ability to revive Madara at close to full power, that would be extremely hax.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

> =Cognitios;51124859]I think you have some issues comprehending speed levels.


I think you have some issues comprehending the manga.
1- Minato arraived.
2- he teleported the TBB
3- he putted the Kunais all around the Juubi.
4- he talked with Naruto and Sakura
5- the Hokages arrived, and Tobirama admitted inferiority... 


> Go, make a post saying Minato vs 8th Gate Gai in speed, go ahead, I dare you, in fact I'll make it if it's already canon.


I do not need to make a thread, and I said who gives a damn about what people say?
I'm debating with you about the manga or the people's opinions? 
this is what the manga shows
Tobirama's own admission


> The tiny one's holding the people qualify as branches too ya know. How do you know which branches he cut? You don't so you assume it's the biggest one so you can give Minato the most wank.



Because Minato obviously said he freed ALL the people, not one or a group of them, but ALL. 


> No, it is no where stated that he did, it is no where implied that he did. In fact it is implied that he failed and reacted the same what Tobirama did.






> No, just no. In no world is Tobirama getting mid diffed by Minato, only a person with a severe wanking issue and fanboyism would think that, look at all the other posters who are saying high diff / extreme high diff match. None of these posters have a hate or love for Minato, you however are biased and should stay out of this thread before you embarrass yourself further


.

again, who give a damn about what they say? 
Am I debating with you about the manga or about people's opinions? 

If we go to the manga, and leave their opinions to them for a second

1- Minato Vs the STRONGEST tag team in kumo (A&B)

resulted of B trembling from Minato's name, and A stating that no one can surpass him.

On the other hand, Tobirama got destroyed against weaker foes, even though he had backup.

Just because people think that's does not mean their opinions are fact. The same thing was said about how A defeats Minato back in the Gokage Arc, yet Minato almost soloed him with one move.

and the same thing was said about Obito and how he destroys Minato back in the Pain Arc, yet
Minato schooled his ass without even a scratch. 


Tobirama has an even weaker S/T jutsus than Minato. When Obito had superior one, the element of surprise, a hostage, and Kurama, yet he got his ass handled to him.

why won't Minato be able to do so against a weaker opponent again?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 3, 2014)

I don't even know what you're talking about, Elia.
For all we know, he could have just severed the tiny branches that are connected to those cocoons.

Not to mention Hashirama's Jukai Koutan is stronger than those branches...


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> I don't even know what you're talking about, Elia.
> For all we know, he could have just severed the tiny branches that are connected to those cocoons.
> 
> Not to mention Hashirama's Jukai Koutan is stronger than those branches...



- Tiny branches to free ALL the people? 
isn't that sweet? 

- lol, nonsense. Hashirama is utter fodder compared to JJ Madara's jutsu.


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

As King Itachi has already pointed out, you have no idea what your talking about and just spreading some Minato jizz around the forum to satisfy your own bizarre fetishes.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> As King Itachi has already pointed out, you have no idea what your talking about and just spreading some Minato jizz around the forum to satisfy your own bizarre fetishes.



seriously are you blind? 
I even putted the panel to you, what do you want more than that?
and it's even in my sig, were a glasses or something if you need to....

"I tried to save and free the people affected by *cutting the TREE*."


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

> seriously are you blind?
> I even put the panel to you, what do you wnat more than that?
> and it's even in my sig, were a glasses or something if you need to....


As I pointed out, and as king Itachi pointed out there are smaller branches in that panel that he could have been cutting, instead of the massive one's you automatically assumed. Your inability to grasp that is astounding.
As for glasses, I am wearing my glasses right now thank you for the concern.


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## Veracity (Jul 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama said so, _didn't he_?



That was before Tobirama used his FTG lvl 2. Minato was superior at that time.


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## Veracity (Jul 3, 2014)

@elia 
Do you have any proof at all that Juubi Madara's Mokuton is more durable then Hashirama's? Not even this but the Justu Madara used wasn't known for it's durabilty at all.

The god tree is on a higher level then Hashirama yet the branches were cut by Mifune and Hiruzen while Hashirama Mokuton tanks TBB's and PS slashes. HUGE DIFFFERNCE between offensive output and durabilty,


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## Magicbullet (Jul 3, 2014)

Tobirama.


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## Rocky (Jul 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> That was before Tobirama used his FTG lvl 2. Minato was superior at that time.



I don't understand.

"FTG lvl 2" is the simple action of throwing a marked weapon by a foe's head and warping to it for a blindside attack. Tobirama can do this as long as he can mark objects, which he could do before he even _met_ Minato.

Furthermore, Tobirama admitted inferiority upon witnessing Minato warp away the Jūbidama, not use this Lv. 2 Hiraishin, so Nindaime couldn't have been referring to that anyway.


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## Veracity (Jul 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> "FTG lvl 2" is the simple action of throwing a marked weapon by a foe's head and warping to it for a blindside attack. Tobirama can do this as long as he can mark objects, which he could do before he even _met_ Minato.
> 
> Furthermore, Tobirama admitted inferiority upon witnessing Minato warp away the Jūbidama, not use this Lv. 2 Hiraishin, so Nindaime couldn't have been referring to that anyway.



I know exactly what FTG level 2 and it's bullshit on Kishis part for him to not allow Tobirama to have such. Notice how before Tobirama used FTG lvl 2 against Madara he had never been known to use FTG lvl 2 at all. It wasn't implied that he had it at all and he didn't use it in any of fighting displays while Minato uses it all the time ? Minato was claimed to posses FTG lvl 2 and Tobirama was claimed to have not. I know it's a simple concept, but apparently Tobirama was stupid enough to never use it.

When did Tobirama say that ? He was just surprised that Minato could reach the battlefield so fast using FTG.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 3, 2014)

The way I look at it: Minato is faster and has more versatility with Hiraishin, while Tobirama's senses make up for the little gap in speed. Being a Senju, he also has the ability to create more Bunshin through larger reserves, which lessens the probability of getting hit. Ultimately, I think it comes down to Edo Tensei, as "Rasengan vs. Suiton" will be a complete wash.

@Elia
It makes more sense if Minato just severs the branch that's connected directly to those cocoons. 
Why would he make the effort to cut larger branches, especially if he's doing so with one kunai in his mouth?
What you're proposing sounds very unreasonable, to be honest...

And JJ Madara hasn't shown the ability to use Mokuton on the same level as Hashirama. Then again, he hasn't given us any reason to believe he's stronger than JJ Obito (due to PIS), considering the latter actually harnessed Juubi's power and used its different forms. On top of that, the tree is very weak and was casually evaded by Hashirama/Madara; it just has the ability to absorb chakra. There's no reason to believe its branches are more powerful than Hashirama's Jukai Koutan, though. We know that Hashi's Mokuton likely originated from this source, but he's got a brain to control the power in his techniques.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @elia
> Do you have any proof at all that Juubi Madara's Mokuton is more durable then Hashirama's? Not even this but the Justu Madara used wasn't known for it's durabilty at all.
> 
> The god tree is on a higher level then Hashirama yet the branches were cut by Mifune and Hiruzen while Hashirama Mokuton tanks TBB's and PS slashes. HUGE DIFFFERNCE between offensive output and durabilty,



Madara has his own power, Hashirama's cells, SM, the Tree, and the Juubi.
He was superior to Hashirama, and his jutsu was so powerful that it covered the entire Ninja World.
I have no reason to think he is inferior... 

- as I said a billion time, the nature of the jutsu makes a different. The TBB is NOT a cutting jutsu, so
he can catch it simply, however the swords are supposed to cut, it's not the same as a ball.

Now, imagine I throw a ball towards you, can you catch it? 
Now, imagine a sword being thrown at you, is your hand going to catch it the same way? 

as for the slashes, all of Hashirama's jutsus were cut because of that. Except when he stops it
from the SIDES. The sides are NOT  sharp...


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## Rocky (Jul 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I know exactly what FTG level 2 and it's bullshit on Kishis part for him to not allow Tobirama to have such. Notice how before Tobirama used FTG lvl 2 against Madara he had never been known to use FTG lvl 2 at all. It wasn't implied that he had it at all and he didn't use it in any of fighting displays while Minato uses it all the time ? Minato was claimed to posses FTG lvl 2 and Tobirama was claimed to have not. I know it's a simple concept, but apparently Tobirama was stupid enough to never use it.
> 
> When did Tobirama say that ? He was just surprised that Minato could reach the battlefield so fast using FTG.



Tobirama says that Minato's "Shunshin" is better than his own. You think he's speaking of Hiraishin and not the body flicker. If Tobirama is a credible judge of his own abilities, then I think we'd best agree with a statement he made regarding Minato after witnessing the 4th's Hiraishin in work first hand. 

Personally, I think Tobirama was talking about the Body Flicker, because there is no difference in their Hiraishin except for Minato's pre-marked weapons and the Space Time Barrier.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> @Elia
> It makes more sense if Minato just severs the branch that's connected directly to those cocoons.
> Why would he make the effort to cut larger branches, especially if he's doing so with one kunai in his mouth?
> What you're proposing sounds very unreasonable, to be honest...
> ...



- It has to do with Minato's statement that he freed all people. Because, if he only cut those things connected the, why would he use it on ALL people? 

if he tried the first time, and he saw that it did not work, then why doing so to everyone else?
Let's say Minato became stupid, and tried it on a second, third, and fourth one, and all failed.

Then what's the likelihood that he went full retard and tried to do so with every single one of those people? Shouldn't 4 be more than enough to make sure that it does not work?

However, if he cut the entire thing, and they all get freed, then some other branch got all of them again, then his statement that he freed all people/people effected will be true.... 



- Madara showed wood jutsus BEYOND Hashirama, it covered all the nations, what has Hashriama shown even remotely close to such level?

as for being stronger than JJ Obito, Minato stated that Madara is stronger, and that's was before he gets his second eye, the Tree, and the 3rd eye.

- I honestly don't see how it's even possible to doubt that the
God: Nativity of a World of Trees

is stronger than Nativity of a World of Trees!

as for dodging, it's not important, what I was saying is Minato's ability to cut those branches/Trees
even without his hands, which I don't see why people downplay his feats.  

anyway, I got exhausted from all of that. 

Thank you for your time, and thank you for being able to handle different opinions than yours, unlike some others.


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## Veracity (Jul 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama says that Minato's "Shunshin" is better than his own. You think he's speaking of Hiraishin and not the body flicker. If Tobirama is a credible judge of his own abilities, then I think we'd best agree with a statement he made regarding Minato after witnessing the 4th's Hiraishin in work first hand.
> 
> Personally, I think Tobirama was talking about the Body Flicker, because there is no difference in their Hiraishin except for Minato's pre-marked weapons and the Space Time Barrier.



The viz translates that line to his "teleportation " which would pertain to FTG more then shunshin( even though I already know your gonna say body flicker is the same as teleportation in someone's crazy mind) , this is the reason Minato arrived at the battlefield far before everyone else. Because he used FTG lvl 2 on conjunction with his speed. You cannot tell me that Minato with his flicker speed alone is fast enough to arrive at the battlefield, warp the BjuiiDama, and place markers all around the Juubi before the other Kages got there. ESPECIALLY when base Hashirama alone has a flicker fast enough to blitz Sage Naruto, and Tobirama is considered faster then that. Not only that but there is no possible way the 1st , 2nd, and 3rd all have the exact same shunshin speed. Tobirama and Hashirama posses a flicker FARRRRR faster then Hirzuen yet arrived at the same time ?


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## Rocky (Jul 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The viz translates that line to his "teleportation " which would pertain to FTG more then shunshin( even though I already know your gonna say body flicker is the same as teleportation in someone's crazy mind).



The Shunshin technique is called Teleportation Technique in English media, I believe.

I don't know for certain what Tobirama was talking about when he said what he said.



> this is the reason Minato arrived at the battlefield far before everyone else. Because he used FTG lvl 2 on conjunction with his speed.



Expand on this...


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## Veracity (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Shunshin technique is called Teleportation Technique in English media, I believe.
> 
> I don't know for certain what Tobirama was talking about when he said what he said.
> 
> ...



In the viz translation it simply says " your teleportation is better then mine ." Considering Minato used FTG lvl 2 to warp the BjuiiDama and placed tags all around the Juubi id assume he was speaking about his skill , speed and proficiency in FTG. But I can see how you could think it meant shunshin. Were just going to have to Agree to disagree here.

He threw Kunai ahead of himself to get to the battlefield faster basically.


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## Rocky (Jul 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Considering Minato used FTG lvl 2 to warp the BjuiiDama and placed tags all around the Juubi.



Did he?



> He threw Kunai ahead of himself to get to the battlefield faster basically.



Maybe. Tobirama can do the same exact thing, though.


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## Veracity (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Did he?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe. Tobirama can do the same exact thing, though.



Space time barrier in conjunction with FTG lvl 2 yeah.

That's the point. Tobirama clearly didn't use FTG lvl 2 at all and couldn't at that point time via plot. It's weird cause in every flash back and every time Tobirama is mentioned he is NEVER ever said to have FTG lvl 2 while Minato is canonically said to have such.

Also weird how Tobirama neglected to use FTG at all during his battle during Juubito despite Minato using the entire time.


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## Rocky (Jul 4, 2014)

I don't necessarily agree completely with your reasoning, but regardless, Minato's Lv. 2 Hiraishin would still be more potent with the pre-marked Kunai.

Theoretically, Minato can grab a handful and chuck them at the opponent, and unless the opponent has a jutsu that can prevent a _barrage_ of Kunai from coming anywhere near them (or they can outright react to Hiraishin blitzes), then they would lose.

Tobirama, on the other hand, can only throw ones he takes time to mark, essentially meaning one at a time. One marked weapon is easier to deal with than ten, or twenty.


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## Veracity (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't necessarily agree completely with your reasoning, but regardless, Minato's Lv. 2 Hiraishin would still be more potent with the pre-marked Kunai.
> 
> Theoretically, Minato can grab a handful and chuck them at the opponent, and unless the opponent has a jutsu that can prevent a _barrage_ of Kunai from coming anywhere near them (or they can outright react to Hiraishin blitzes), then they would lose.
> 
> Tobirama, on the other hand, can only throw ones he takes time to mark, essentially meaning one at a time. One marked weapon is easier to deal with than ten, or twenty.



Which yet again is another reason we can come to the claim that Tobirama didnt have FTG lvl 2 at the time. If he had FTG lvl 2 then he would already have prepped Kunai in his arsenal yet he doesn't does he ? Unless you want to believe Tobirama is stupid enough to know FTG lvl 2 yet not prep said Justu. Unlikely being a tactical and scientific genius + Hokage. Not out of the question though considering Kishi made him stupid enough to not use FTG lvl 2 Kunai to begin with.

But I guess in a sense Minato has superior FTG proficiency through a plethora of pre marked Kunai's.


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## LeBoyka (Jul 4, 2014)

*Minato takes this Mid-High Difficulty. *

_Reasons:_

1.) Minato's use of FTG is much better; pre-tagged kunai give him a huge edge. Imagine entering a fire-fight with an unloaded gun, and your enemy already has a loaded gun... Get the picture? His use of these kunai, along with the manual marking FTG is more innovative than Tobirama. *Since this is a battle between two Space Time users, who happen to main FTG, the better user of this jutsu will clearly have an edge over the other. And the better user of the FTG jutsu is Minato.*

2.) At long-distance, Minato can warp any of Tobirama's Long-Distance Water Jutsus back at him via Space Time Barrier. 

3.) _Tobirama already admitted Minato is faster._ *In a fight between speedsters, speed is the key element to victory. Need I say more? *(This also means Minato would probably tag Tobirama first). 

4.) In CQC, Minato has _Rasengan_. Tobirama does not have anything that can compete with that. 

5.) _Minato can use Contract Seal to end the mind-control over the Edos_; if they are random Edo, or leaf edo, there's a good chance they might not fight once released or they might attack Tobirama out of spite. Also, Tobirama's Edo Tensi is not as powerful as Oro's. (His best summon would probably be a Jonin.)

6.) Minato can summon Gambunta, who has a large amount of fire-power. If Tobirama summons anyone below Jonin level, Gambunta destroys them.

7.) *Minato can access SM* (I'm assuming this is Living Minato); this gives him many physical boosts - especially in speed and reaction time (Critical things in a battle like this.). Minato stated he was not good at sage jutsu - not sage mode. That difference should be noted - meaning he may not have powerful sage jutsus, but his physical stats do get amplified. 

8.) _Shadow Clone + RDS = GG. No draw needed. _

*Conclusion:*
While Minato takes this with Mid to High Difficulty, I see no way for Tonirama to win since his own Edo Tensi wasn't event that strong (He cannot summon or control powerful Shinobi). *Minato is faster, better at CQC, can counter Edo Tensi, and is better with FTG*. He is clearly better and he clearly wins this fight.


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## Senjuclan (Jul 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The viz translates that line to his "teleportation " which would pertain to FTG more then shunshin( even though I already know your gonna say body flicker is the same as teleportation in someone's crazy mind) , this is the reason Minato arrived at the battlefield far before everyone else. Because he used FTG lvl 2 on conjunction with his speed. You cannot tell me that Minato with his flicker speed alone is fast enough to arrive at the battlefield, warp the BjuiiDama, and place markers all around the Juubi before the other Kages got there. ESPECIALLY when base Hashirama alone has a flicker fast enough to blitz Sage Naruto, and Tobirama is considered faster then that. Not only that but there is no possible way the 1st , 2nd, and 3rd all have the exact same shunshin speed. Tobirama and Hashirama posses a flicker FARRRRR faster then Hirzuen yet arrived at the same time ?



1. Viz ALWAYS translates shunshin as teleportation. Read the chapters about Ei and they refer to his teleportation as well
2. There is no such thing as FTG level 2. That was a translation mistake. You can search TaKL comments on the subject and search the comments from other translators on Naruto Wiki. 
3. Minato did not use hiraishin to get to the battlefield. He did not have any marked kunais on the battlefield


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## Senjuclan (Jul 4, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> *Minato takes this Mid-High Difficulty. *
> 
> _Reasons:_
> 
> ...



1. Both Minato and Tobirama pre tag weapons. tobirama's sword and Kunai were pre tagged when he fought the Uchiha brothers. Having more pre tagged weapons can be countered by Kage bunshin as well. The truth is that their use of hiraishin while different is equal. It will come down to strategy and reaction speed

2. Warping back Justus against a warper is useless 

3. Speed does not guarantee a hit. Reflexes can counter superior speed. Tobirama has better reflex feats

4. In cqc Tobirama uses explosive tags as he did against Tobi. 

5. Tobirama edo tenseis are walking bombs. Minato cannot touch them without dying. The seal is not instantaneous. Min auto will commit suicide by touching them. Furthermore, Tobirama has shown the ability to teleport people he is not touching directly. So, if Minato tries, Tobirama can teleport them or create an explosion

6. Gamabunta struggled mightily against the Cerberus. Edo tensei is worse for him. They can't die and they explode. They will tire him out faster than the Cerberus did

7. Minato said his sage mode is useless in battle and cannot be maintained 

This battle comes down to three things in my mind: (1) Luck. The two guys are so similar that whoever capitalizes on the other's mistake first will have a huge advantage. (2) Strategy - dumb luck alone won't cut it. Both these guys are cunning soldiers. While Minato is quite the stratagem, Tobirama is slightly superior. (3) Edo tensei. Depending on who Tobirama has summoned, the fight could be significantly different. Take Tayuya for example. She is fodder to both those guys. However, tagged by Tobirama's FTG, her genjutsu will be a lot more dangerous for Minato if Tobirama warps her to stop him from attacking her while she is using the genjutsu.

While this could go any way, I would say that Edo tensei does give Tobirama the advantage. Give Tobirama Tayuya and Kimmimaro for example and he wins.


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## Veracity (Jul 4, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Viz ALWAYS translates shunshin as teleportation. Read the chapters about Ei and they refer to his teleportation as well
> 2. There is no such thing as FTG level 2. That was a translation mistake. You can search TaKL comments on the subject and search the comments from other translators on Naruto Wiki.
> 3. Minato did not use hiraishin to get to the battlefield. He did not have any marked kunais on the battlefield



Unless you actually have evidence of such then I have no idea what you are talking about. The manga also translates "shunshin" as FTG sometimes.

Doesn't matter at all considering we all know what FTG lvl 2 means. And I'm not searching through comments to find shit. If your gonna prove your point then link me to it.

Considering Minato canonically used FTG lvl 2 to warp the juubidama away probabaly meant he wasn't physically fast  to get to the juubidama before it exploded. Same applies to the way he got to the battlefield.


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## Senjuclan (Jul 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Unless you actually have evidence of such then I have no idea what you are talking about. The manga also translates "shunshin" as FTG sometimes.
> 
> Doesn't matter at all considering we all know what FTG lvl 2 means. And I'm not searching through comments to find shit. If your gonna prove your point then link me to it.
> 
> Considering Minato canonically used FTG lvl 2 to warp the juubidama away probabaly meant he wasn't physically fast  to get to the juubidama before it exploded. Same applies to the way he got to the battlefield.



I have given you the evidence already. VIZ translates shunshin as teleportation even when the raikage uses it. Go check

What you know about level 2 hiraishin is a fanfiction created because of mistranslation. I don't need to convince you of the truth. It is true and remains so whether you believe it or not. Any seasoned member of the forum knows the whole thing about FTG level 2 being a translation mistake.

There is no such thing as FTG level 2. So, he did not use it because it does not exist. Minato got to the battlefield by using regular shunshin just like Hiruzen and Hashirama did


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 4, 2014)

Tobirama wins. Gets a clone tagged and explodes himself when Minato tries to bamflash him.

I'd say Minato is overall the better Hirashin user, and arguably the stronger shinobi but in a match like this, Tobirama has the better tools to win.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 4, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tobirama wins. Gets a clone tagged and explodes himself when Minato tries to bamflash him.
> 
> I'd say Minato is overall the better Hirashin user, and arguably the stronger shinobi but in a match like this, Tobirama has the better tools to win.


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## Veracity (Jul 4, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> I have given you the evidence already. VIZ translates shunshin as teleportation even when the raikage uses it. Go check
> 
> What you know about level 2 hiraishin is a fanfiction created because of mistranslation. I don't need to convince you of the truth. It is true and remains so whether you believe it or not. Any seasoned member of the forum knows the whole thing about FTG level 2 being a translation mistake.
> 
> There is no such thing as FTG level 2. So, he did not use it because it does not exist. Minato got to the battlefield by using regular shunshin just like Hiruzen and Hashirama did



I don't just have viz editions lying around on my bed. I can't look and see what it says. Your going to have to prove it, or this debate is useless.

That's nice.

Or Minato got to the battlefield by teleporting to marked Kunai like Tobirama didn't have at the time considering he canonically doesn't have marked Kunai in his arsenal.


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## LeBoyka (Jul 4, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Both Minato and Tobirama pre tag weapons. tobirama's sword and Kunai were pre tagged when he fought the Uchiha brothers. Having more pre tagged weapons can be countered by Kage bunshin as well. The truth is that their use of hiraishin while different is equal. It will come down to strategy and reaction speed
> 
> 2. Warping back Justus against a warper is useless
> 
> ...



1.) If Tobirama counters with Shadow Clones, _so can Minato_. Sounds like a stalemate.

2.) Not essentially - S/T Barrier is a superior defensive S/T technique. If Minato has Tobirama marked, this can be GG. 

3.) Better reaction feats? _That's a bit debatable_. If anything, I'd give the edge to Minato since he has access to SM. _Oh and speed is a major issue in this fight - it gives Minato the initiative to be on the offense for the majority of the fight. Even if Tobirama is just reacting, reacting alone will not win a fight. Having the initiative will. And Minato is clearly faster by a decent degree._

4.) He'd be in the line of fire if he did that. IF he switches places with an Edo, Minato's reaction and superior speed will allow him to easily escape via FTG. Outside of using Edos, Tobirama cannot win a CQC fight with Minato. Point moot.

5.) A shadow clone can touch them, die, and boom Minato can warp them away. 

6.) Cerberus tired Gambunta because he could not kill it, and because it multiplied. Edo Tensi explosions are much easier to dodge than a giant dog. Once they explode, they take time to regenerate. Plus, if Gambunta crushes one, that also forces it to regenerate which takes time. Gambunta can also kill them from a distance, while also presuring Tobirama from a distance.

7.) No, he said he was not proficient at it - especially when it comes to sage jutsus. Not being good at it does not mean he does not get a stats boost from it. Once SM comes out, Minato has all the one-sided advantages he needs.

8.) Still could not counter Shadow Clone + RDS... That can win this fight, with better odds, than exploding fodder.


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## Veracity (Jul 4, 2014)

@LeBoyka
Tobirama can easily win a CQC battle with Minato. His hand speed is tiers above base Minato and even trumps OCM Minato. If it comes down to who hits who first with hand speed then Minato has virtually no chance.


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## Senjuclan (Jul 4, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> 1.) If Tobirama counters with Shadow Clones, _so can Minato_. Sounds like a stalemate.
> 
> 2.) Not essentially - S/T Barrier is a superior defensive S/T technique. If Minato has Tobirama marked, this can be GG.
> 
> ...



1. In other words hiraishin won't decide this fight as I said

2. Because we have never seen a user of space time warp out of a space time jutsu, right? Space time barrier won't work b

3. Against the same opponent, Obito, Tobirama had the better reaction feats. 

4. jyuubito has superior speed to Minato and yet he placed explosive tags before he noticed them. As far as Tobirama getting caught in the explosion, not sure what you are taking about. As soon as he puts the explosives on someone he can retreat. That is what he had the kages do against Obito. He can use shunshin or hirAishin to retreat

5. Sure expect that it is three against one, Minato creates a shadow clone and so does Tobirama and now it is 5 against 3. Minato is still at a disadvantage. Heck Tobirama could have the edo tensei zombies create clones as well and Minato will still be outnumbered

6. He can't kill them either. So what if he kills them, they regenerate and stArt over. That is exactly what the Cerberus did to Bunta. Plus, you guys underrate Tobirama by not naming the zombies he has. Even fodder zombies could kill Bunta with their own Justus 

7. Minato said he never used sage mode in battle

I am not sure what RDS


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 4, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 7. Minato said he never used sage mode in battle



"never *really *used it..."

I'm not sure where you live, but in Murrica that means I have before, but rarely.


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## Cognitios (Jul 4, 2014)

Actually Elite Uchiha,
Saying "I've never really killed someone before" right before you kill someone, or right after your first time killing someone makes perfect sense in english.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 4, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Actually Elite Uchiha,
> Saying "I've never really killed someone before" right before you kill someone, or right after your first time killing someone makes perfect sense in english.



Location: Itachi's left nutsack

Well that explains everything.


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## Cognitios (Jul 4, 2014)

Lack of Argument suggests that you have none?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 4, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Lack of Argument suggests that you have none?





There is no need to argue. In Murrica, when someone makes a statement that way, it implies they rarely do so, but it doesn't mean they never did. Again, this is my experience in Murrica, so take it as you will.


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## Senjuclan (Jul 4, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> "never *really *used it..."
> 
> I'm not sure where you live, but in Murrica that means I have before, but rarely.



I live in the smart part of America where people know that if one says "I have never really been healthy" it does not mean I have rarely been healthy


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## Turrin (Jul 4, 2014)

Whose stronger depends on:

1) Whether Tobirama has Edos prepped
2) How many Edos Tobirama can summon
3) How much weaker than their living form the Edos are
4) What techniques the Edos have

Depending on those 4 things, Tobirama could be around Minato's level or potentially stronger. 

With Edos excluded Minato has the edge over Tobirama. His FTG is a bit better with his myriad of pre-marked kunai, S-T Barrier, and being overall a bit faster than Tobirama. His Toads also give him a edge over Tobirama as far as utility goes even though I feel Tobirama's suitons are more useful overall than Minato's Rasengan (unless up against a Doton user) . With that said I feel Tobirama has the strategic, sensing (unless Minato is in Sennin Modo),  and stamina edges over Minato. However Minato still sets himself apart from Tobirama a bit with his Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu which gives him more potential when back into a corner than Tobirama. Sennin Modo (even in short bursts) doesn't hurt things ether.

So w/o Edos I see Minato as the superior fighter, but certainly they are within the same general vicinity of each other, and it's not huge difference. With Edos it's hard to say. If they are few in number and simply fodder for Tandem Explosive tags they may only make up the difference between Tobirama and Minato. If they are useful in other regards or many in number they may push Tobirama above Minato, and even onto an entirely different "level"; at least when prepped.

As for how the actual match would go. Due to the fact that FTG users can link to each others FTG-Markers, it would result in whoever is faster blitzing the other, which would be Minato. So Minato wins, but that's more type mis-match than anything else.


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## Cognitios (Jul 4, 2014)

> There is no need to argue. In Murrica, when someone makes a statement that way, it implies they rarely do so, but it doesn't mean they never did. Again, this is my experience in Murrica, so take it as you will.


As someone who lives in "Murrica" as you say I have never really heard the term used that way.  And by that I mean I have never heard the term used that way. You have 3 examples from not only me but also senjuclan on how your statement is incorrect. And both of us live in America, i have no idea about Senjuclan but I live in a quite uneducated part of the country, statistically speaking, and I have never heard the term used that way.


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## Turrin (Jul 4, 2014)

^Takl and Viz translate it as Minato having not used Sennin Modo much in a real fight, rather than him not using it ever before. I'd say Minato would use Sennin Modo if given the time and reason to utilize it, which in most case ether he was not given the time or the reason, hence only using it sparingly in actual combat.


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## Cognitios (Jul 4, 2014)

If Minato really could use senjutsu efficiently he wouldn't have asked Naruto for senjutsu chakra to harm Juubi. As for the translations could you post them?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 5, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> I live in the smart part of America where people know that if one says "I have never really been healthy" it does not mean I have rarely been healthy




This is a quote from me last semester.

"I never really ate healthy during exam week". However, I did eat healthy once that week. 



Cognitios said:


> As someone who lives in "Murrica" as you say I have never really heard the term used that way.  And by that I mean I have never heard the term used that way. You have 3 examples from not only me but also senjuclan on how your statement is incorrect. And both of us live in America, i have no idea about Senjuclan *but I live in a quite uneducated part of the country, statistically speaking, and I have never heard the term used that way.*


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## Cognitios (Jul 5, 2014)

> "I never really ate healthy during exam week". However, I did eat healthy once that week.


I'm sure you remember exactly what you said and ate during every instance last semester. However lets just replace the sage mode statement with something else.
"I never really used a sword in combat"
When you say it that way it makes it seem that the person haven't used a sword in combat before. That doesn't mean they haven't practiced with a sword before. As for your reaction gifs, while cute they just make it seem as though you don't really know what your talking about if they are your entire argument. 
If Minato had ever used SM in combat before he would have used it against juubito, instead he asked naruto to spare some change. Fighting Juubito would be the perfect time to use SM at that instance, especially with a cooperating bijuu residing inside of him.


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## Kyu (Jul 5, 2014)

> I am not sure what RDS



....Is?

_Reaper Death Seal_ a.k.a. _Shiki Fūjin_


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 5, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I'm sure you remember exactly what you said and ate during every instance last semester. However lets just replace the sage mode statement with something else.



Yes. If you want context of the statement, my friend was asking me if I wanted to eat at a healthy restaurant during exam week. 



> "I never really used a sword in combat"
> When you say it that way it makes it seem that the person haven't used a sword in combat before. That doesn't mean they haven't practiced with a sword before.



Wow so you mean a phrase can be used in two different contexts or interpreted in two different ways 



> As for your reaction gifs, while cute they just make it seem as though you don't really know what your talking about if they are your entire argument.



I know what I am talking about. You on the other hand are just spewing nons........nevermind. 







> If Minato had ever used SM in combat before he would have used it against juubito, instead he asked naruto to spare some change. Fighting Juubito would be the perfect time to use SM at that instance, especially with a cooperating bijuu residing inside of him.



Your right, instead he used it against Madara


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> If Minato really could use senjutsu efficiently he wouldn't have asked Naruto for senjutsu chakra to harm Juubi. As for the translations could you post them?



Kakashi: "If I recall correctly...
...Senjutsu isn't your forte, master..."

Minato: "That's an understatement. It takes me too long to build up the chakra, plus I can't maintain it long.
I haven't used it much in real combat, either." 

Takl, Minato: ............
Kakashi: ....sensei, if I remember correctly, you were ..
er... sen jutsu isn't so much.... 
Minato:...to be honest, im poor at senjutsu, you know. 
(with Sen jutsu) i take too much time to knead up chakra and I cant keep it up for a long time to boot. 
I havent used it (=senjutsu) much in actual fighting.
Minato: furthermore, presently I'm not in a condition to perform(/put up) (hand) seals that I don't even think I can fight properly.


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## Cognitios (Jul 5, 2014)

Granted, even so turrin, Senjutsu wouldn't matter in this match considering Minato cannot use it. Standing still in this match just isn't an option, even for a fraction of a second. The second Minato attempts to gather senjutsu chakra he dies because tobirama stabs him.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 5, 2014)

Minato cannot use senjutsu, but did canonically in the manga. Seems legit.


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Granted, even so turrin, Senjutsu wouldn't matter in this match considering Minato cannot use it. Standing still in this match just isn't an option, even for a fraction of a second. The second Minato attempts to gather senjutsu chakra he dies because tobirama stabs him.


Minato won't be using Senjutsu in this match because of FTG Linking and it coming down to a speed contest. If FTG Linking wasn't a thing though, there are many ways he could potentially use Senjutsu.


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## Cognitios (Jul 5, 2014)

> Minato cannot use senjutsu, but did canonically in the manga. Seems legit.


I said he cannot use senjutsu in this match, try to keep up.
I then explained why he cannot use senjutsu in this match.


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## Rain (Jul 5, 2014)

Tobirama is a smarter more experienced version of Minato with Edo Tensei.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> "never *really *used it..."
> 
> I'm not sure where you live, but in Murrica that means I have before, but rarely.






> =Turrin;51134597]Whose stronger depends on:
> 
> 1) Whether Tobirama has Edos prepped
> 2) How many Edos Tobirama can summon
> ...


Contract seal. 

Also, in that case, it's only fair to give Minato Pa and Ma, and having them prepare their Frog Song. 



> With Edos excluded Minato has the edge over Tobirama. His FTG is a bit better with his myriad of pre-marked kunai, S-T Barrier, and being overall a bit faster than Tobirama. His Toads also give him a edge over Tobirama as far as utility goes even though I feel Tobirama's suitons are more useful overall than Minato's Rasengan (unless up against a Doton user) . With that said I feel Tobirama has the strategic, sensing (unless Minato is in Sennin Modo),  and stamina edges over Minato. However Minato still sets himself apart from Tobirama a bit with his Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu which gives him more potential when back into a corner than Tobirama. Sennin Modo (even in short bursts) doesn't hurt things ether.


arriving to the battlefield. Teleporting the Juubi's TBB, having a conversation with his child, and putting the Kunais around the Juubi
is not "a bit". 

- Minato has sensing abilities even without SM.
- Who said Tobirama has more stamina than Minato? 



> So w/o Edos I see Minato as the superior fighter, but certainly they are within the same general vicinity of each other, and it's not huge difference. With Edos it's hard to say. If they are few in number and simply fodder for Tandem Explosive tags they may only make up the difference between Tobirama and Minato. If they are useful in other regards or many in number they may push Tobirama above Minato, and even onto an entirely different "level"; at least when prepped.


If it is not a big different, why can Minato deal and accomplish much more than Tobirama?
and even fight stronger foes and win, unlike Tobirama? 


> As for how the actual match would go. Due to the fact that FTG users can link to each others FTG-Markers, it would result in whoever is faster blitzing the other, which would be Minato. So Minato wins, but that's more type mis-match than anything else.



They can only do that with a permission, and that's why Tobirama asked Minato to allow him to do so. Otherwise Tobirama can't do that, and that's why he needed Minato to teleport him to the Kunai around the Juubi at first.

Why do you think Minato will allow him that here?

Here when Tobirama needed Minato to teleport him because he can't teleport to Minato's seals


Here when he asked Minato to use his seals


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## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Minato wins high/extreme diff (it could go either way)
> 
> --they are both on par with each other however minatos use of FTG is more versatile in comparison to tobirama which is why i would give him the edge
> 
> ...



This /thread            .


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Contract seal.


I'm talking about whose better overall. I already said Minato would beat Tobirama due to FTG-Linking.




> arriving to the battlefield. Teleporting the Juubi's TBB, having a conversation with his child, and putting the Kunais around the Juubi
> is not "a bit".


That was Shunshin. 



> - Minato has sensing abilities even without SM.


Okay, and they don't have as good of feats as Tobirama



> Who said Tobirama has more stamina than Minato?


Tobirama being able to create 2 clones while Minato could only create one, while both were maintaining the barrier. 



> If it is not a big different, why can Minato deal and accomplish much more than Tobirama?
> and even fight stronger foes and win, unlike Tobirama?


Because there is a difference 



> They can only do that with a permission, and that's why Tobirama asked Minato to allow him to do so. Otherwise Tobirama can't do that, and that's why he needed Minato to teleport him to the Kunai around the Juubi at first.


No where does it say you need permission.



> Here when he asked Minato to use his seals


He asked to use Minato's chakra, not his seals.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2014)

> =Turrin;51137900]I'm talking about whose better overall. I already said Minato would beat Tobirama due to FTG-Linking.



oh. 
then in term of what you said about the Tobirama's ET. We know he can't summon as much as Kabuto (Chiyo stated that), and we know his is weaker than Oro's in part 1 (Kabuto stated so), and
we know the purpose of his ET is not the power of the summons, but just to use them for his explosion tags (implied by madara)


> That was Shunshin.


S/T jutsus are considered to be shunshin.
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]
+
12


> Okay, and they don't have as good of feats as Tobirama


What's the different? 
Tobirama sensed 20 people with "2" fingers and knew they are Kin and his team.
Minato sensed 20 people with "1" finger and knew they are clones. 

both sensed the people in the war in konoha. 

Minato sensed Obito and Madara's chakra and the different between them.
Tobirama sensed Naruto's chakra.

Minato sensed Naruto and the fact that Kurama was taken out from him...etc

so, I wonder what feats does Tobirama have in term of sensing puts him above Minato? 
and would that makes any different. 


> Tobirama being able to create 2 clones while Minato could only create one, while both were maintaining the barrier.


Except Tobirama stated that it was his limit. Where did Minato state such thing? 


> Because there is a difference


I did not mean the different in itself, but how big. 


> No where does it say you need permission.


Except Tobirama asked for it. Otherwise, why did not he teleported himself to Minato's Kunais before?



> He asked to use Minato's chakra, not his seals.



and without Minato's chakra how is he going to use the seal? 
Those seals are made of Minato's chakra. 

Just like how BM Minato and BSM Naruto needed Tobirama to teleport them to attack Obito.
If Minato can teleport to Obito at any given time because of Tobirama's seal, why did not he do that to save Naruto and Sasuke
the first time Obito got them? Why did not he teleported himself and his child to attack Obito? But rather needed Tobirama's help?


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> oh.
> then in term of what you said about the Tobirama's ET. We know he can't summon as much as Kabuto (Chiyo stated that),


When did Chiyo state that?



> and we know his is weaker than Oro's in part 1 (Kabuto stated so), )


No we don't.



> and
> we know the purpose of his ET is not the power of the summons, but just to use them for his explosion tags (implied by madara


Nope, Tandem Explosive Tags was only stated to be one of the tactics he developed for Edos; not the sole tactic



> S/T jutsus are considered to be shunshin.


I Know what your argument is but it doesn't change the fact that, that was Shunshin. The Japanese SFX is the same for Shunshin there, but different from FTG.



> What's the different?
> Tobirama sensed 20 people with "2" fingers and knew they are Kin and his team.
> Minato sensed 20 people with "1" finger and knew they are clones.


That's Finger BS, we don't even know if that's sensing. I'm referring to the actual sensing capabilities of the two.



> so, I wonder what feats does Tobirama have in term of sensing puts him above Minato?
> and would that makes any different.


His sensory skills were so refined and accurate that he could distinguish between different chakra signatures by clan, as upon sensing Karin, he determined she was an Uzumaki. He can likewise still sense the chakra of others, even when his ability to mould chakra is impaired



> Except Tobirama stated that it was his limit. Where did Minato state such thing?


Minato doesn't have to. They were all giving it their all to stop Obito and Madara; if Minato could have created more clones he would have done so.



> I did not mean the different in itself, but how big.


Same "level", but Minato is stronger in the sense that he'd perform better in more scenario's than Tobirama



> Except Tobirama asked for it. Otherwise, why did not he teleported himself to Minato's Kunais before?


Where?



> and without Minato's chakra how is he going to use the seal?
> Those seals are made of Minato's chakra.


Exactly how he used the seals w/o Minato's chakra when he teleported Sasuke.



> If Minato can teleport to Obito at any given time because of Tobirama's seal, why did not he do that to save Naruto and Sasuke
> the first time Obito got them? Why did not he teleported himself and his child to attack Obito? But rather needed Tobirama's help?


You make some good points, so...maybe Minato can't FTG Link and he actually looses this fight after all. You convinced me Tobirama wins. 

(That or Kishi doesn't think through this shit as deeply as we do)


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2014)

> =Turrin;51139093]When did Chiyo state that?





> No we don't.


Yes, we kinda do. 
2


> Nope, Tandem Explosive Tags was only stated to be one of the tactics he developed for Edos; not the sole tactic


2


> I Know what your argument is but it doesn't change the fact that, that was Shunshin. The Japanese SFX is the same for Shunshin there, but different from FTG.


The SFX for Minato's arrival is for the FTG. 
and every time since their arrival Tobirama was calling the FTG as shunshin. There is no need to single that one out.


> That's Finger BS, we don't even know if that's sensing. I'm referring to the actual sensing capabilities of the two.


That's a sensing ability of two of them. 


> His sensory skills were so refined and accurate that he could distinguish between different chakra signatures by clan, as upon sensing Karin, he determined she was an Uzumaki. He can likewise still sense the chakra of others, even when his ability to mould chakra is impaired


Let's assume Minato can't tell the clan from someone's chakra, and? 
How is that going to help here exactly whether he can figure out that Minato is a Namikaze or not?


> Minato doesn't have to. They were all giving it their all to stop Obito and Madara; if Minato could have created more clones he would have done so.


No he does have to state so, otherwise your point does not prove anything.
and why would Minato create more to stop Obito if ha can do it with one clone? 

are the other clones supposed to teleport with the first clone and cheer up for it and how its strike
is so adorable and badass?  


> Same "level", but Minato is stronger in the sense that he'd perform better in more scenario's than Tobirama


and that's what I meant by my first post. If they are in the same "level" why can Minato handle mush stronger opponents? 


> Where?


I already putted the scans for you, Turrin. 

1- Here Tobirama needed Minato to teleport him to his seals


However, when Minato allowed him to link his chakra to himself, here.

Tobirama then was able to use Minato's seal.


> Exactly how he used the seals w/o Minato's chakra when he teleported Sasuke.


Except, the link is still there from the previous scan, and he even stated so. 


> You make some good points, so...maybe Minato can't FTG Link and he actually looses this fight after all. You convinced me Tobirama wins.


lol, but, no.

They simply can't teleport to each other's marks except with that chakra link if they allowed each other to. That's why none of them could except after than point in chapter 650



> (That or Kishi doesn't think through this shit as deeply as we do)



It simply depends on the situations. Minato does not even need to use Tobirama's marks since his
are superior, and he put them every where. lol

and when they linked their chakra to each other, they stopped facing obito directly, so Minato after that had no reason to use Tobirama's mark. U_U

Edit:
if it's still not clear to you, it's the same reason to why Minato needed to link his chakra to Naruto's so he can teleport the other SA.
if he did not do that, or Naruto cut that link off, then Minato won't be able to teleport the SA.

It's really that simple, I think you make it way more complicated that how it is...


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2014)

Fair enough, but considering the number Kabuto summoned, that leaves a-lot of room for the number Tobirama could summon. 



> Yes, we kinda do.


No we kinda don't. Orochimaru did take the technique beyond Tobirama, but no where does Kabuto say he did it in PI. Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei skill increased from PI to PII.



> Sabaku Soutaisou Fuin is Gaara's Jutsu, not Shukaku's


Yeah Madara is highlight a single tactic of Edo-Tensei. Nowhere does it say that was the sole usage of any Edo-Tensei. In-fact just this chapter we see Tobirama wanting to utilize Edo-Tensei and it's not to blow up the field with Tandem Explosive Tags, it's to gain valuable intel from the deceased Shinobi.



> and every time since they arrival Tobirama was calling the FTG as shunshin. There is no need to single that one out.


Whether you want to believe he was referring to Shunshin or FTG, doesn't change the fact that Tobirama was utilizing Shunshin there. If Minato is used FTG and Tobirama used Shunshin, even more reason to not take Minato's lead over Tobirama that seriously.



> That's a sensing ability of two of them.


Is it sensing, we don't even know how it works.



> Let's assume Minato can't tell the clan from someone's chakra, and?
> How is that going to help here exactly whether he can figure out that Minato is a Namikaze or not?


Again was comparing their overall "level", not who would win the fight. 
Again I said Minato would win due to FTG-Linking.



> No he does have to state so, otherwise your point does not prove anything.


Nope he doesn't, because the context makes it obvious.



> and why would Minato create more to stop Obito if ha can do it with one clone?


To help the other Kages against Madara. To ensure nothing goes wrong with the clone blitzing Obito. Etc... The whole world was on the line here and Minato is just going to go herp da derp I could create another clone and be more useful, but fuck it I only think I need one, so I won't bother. Literally if Minato had another clone he might have been able to do enough damage to kill Obito before he became the Juubijin, and put a stop to all of this. So really the argument is Minato was such a dick that he caused all this suffering because he didn't want to use more than he thought he needed at such a pivotal moment.



> and that's why I meant by my first post. If they are in the same "level" why can Minato handle mush stronger opponents?


He can't. Minato isn't beating any of the next "level" opponents, just like Tobirama w/o Edo-Tensei isn't.



> I already putted the scans for you, Turrin.


Nether of them have Tobirama asking for permission to use Minato's markers.



> Except, the link is still there from the previous scan, and he even stated so.


No he doesn't.



> lol, but, no.
> 
> They simply can't teleport to each other's marks except with that chakra link if they allowed each other to. That's why none of them could except after than point in chapter 650


Nether of them attempted it before then. Tobirama had his own marks to teleport to.



> It simply depends on the situations. Minato does not even need to use Tobirama's marks since his
> are superior, and he put them every where. lol
> 
> and when they linked their chakra to each other, they stopped facing obito directly, so Minato after that had no reason to use Tobirama's mark. U_U


I don't know what your talking about because the linking was never stated to have anything to do with the chakra.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2014)

> =Turrin;51139728]Fair enough, but considering the number Kabuto summoned, that leaves a-lot of room for the number Tobirama could summon.


Well, I do not know how much he can summon, but since his is weaker than both Kabuto (who also needed Oro's chakra) and Oro, I doubt he can summon that many. but that only assumption. 


> No we kinda don't. Orochimaru did take the technique beyond Tobirama, but no where does Kabuto say he did it in PI. Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei skill increased from PI to PII.


In case you haven't notice, Oro's ET improved after he took the knowledge from Kabuto when he took his chakra back. And Oro couldn't have possibly improve his ET during the time skip because he obviously couldn't do any thing with his jutsus being sealed via the SF. So the only time Kabuto can possible mean is the one in part 1. 


> Yeah Madara is highlight a single tactic of Edo-Tensei. Nowhere does it say that was the sole usage of any Edo-Tensei. In-fact just this chapter we see Tobirama wanting to utilize Edo-Tensei and it's not to blow up the field with Tandem Explosive Tags, it's to gain valuable intel from the deceased Shinobi.


There are only 2 things (that we know off at least) for the ET. Either using the people themselves to fight with their ability or the explosion tags. As for what Tobirama said, that has nothing to do with tactics, he is only going to revive him to ask him, just like how Oro brought the Hokages back to make sasuke ask them what he wants. 


> Whether you want to believe he was referring to Shunshin or FTG, doesn't change the fact that Tobirama was utilizing Shunshin there. If Minato is used FTG and Tobirama used Shunshin, even more reason to not take Minato's lead over Tobirama that seriously.


I actually believed they used both to get to the battlefield, as they couldn't have possibly use only 1.
Thus, Minato being better than Tobirama in both, which leads the latter to use a term that refer to both.


> Is it sensing, we don't even know how it works.


It does not matter if we know how it works or not, because that does not change the jutsu type itself.
We do not know how Sasuke's jutsu works exactly either, does not mean it's not a teleportation jutsu.


> Again was comparing their overall "level", not who would win the fight.
> Again I said Minato would win due to FTG-Linking.


ok, sorry. @>@


> Nope he doesn't, because the context makes it obvious.



Then kishi wouldn't have made Tobirama state it either. You are basically making a baseless assumption, and it does not even make sense to begin with, otherwise Tobirama wouldn't have stated that he can't teleport everyone like Minato.

In addition, Minato was using Kurama's chakra which is as big as Hashirama's, so unless Tobirama have more chakra than Hashirama, yeah, you still makes no sense. 


> To help the other Kages against Madara. To ensure nothing goes wrong with the clone blitzing Obito. Etc... The whole world was on the line here and Minato is just going to go herp da derp I could create another clone and be more useful, but fuck it I only think I need one, so I won't bother. Literally if Minato had another clone he might have been able to do enough damage to kill Obito before he became the Juubijin, and put a stop to all of this. So really the argument is Minato was such a dick that he caused all this suffering because he didn't want to use more than he thought he needed at such a pivotal moment.



Except Minato was not aiming at that, and did not even think about it because he knew that he had a seal on the masked man (obito) and he can stop him right away, and thus he knew that madara won't be revived to begin with. 

Also, for the other point, only Naruto knew that Obito was using different seals to seal the Juubi
because he saw the RT before, and he has the other Bijuu's chakra. So again, you point don't stand
as Minato did not know. 


> He can't. Minato isn't beating any of the next "level" opponents, just like Tobirama w/o Edo-Tensei isn't.



He can, and he already did. 
A & B > kin & gin. It's already stated that they are the strongest tag team, and Minato was handling them by himself. On the other hand, in the first time Tobirama with the 2nd Raikage couldn't deal with a weaker team.

Obito & Kurama are also far stronger than Izuna.

dealing with 50-thousand...etc fodder is surely harder than dealing with 20 when you have 6 of your students with you. 


> Nether of them have Tobirama asking for permission to use Minato's markers.


He clearly stated "fourth let me use the chakra link...etc" because he needs that.
it's really obvious. 

otherwise explain why did not Tobirama teleported himself in the first time to Minato's Kunai? 


> No he doesn't.



He stated he had himself linked to Minato, Turrin please.  


> Nether of them attempted it before then. Tobirama had his own marks to teleport to.


Ok, I'm done with this point, I don't know how to explain it more than that. U_U


> I don't know what your talking about because the linking was never stated to have anything to do with the chakra.



How exactly the links have nothing to do with the chakra?
When Minato and Naruto created the link between each other, how did they do that?
Yes, with the chakra
surrounding trees
surrounding trees

and here is the chakra mixing
surrounding trees

and here they explain it
surrounding trees
surrounding trees

That's what tobirama linked himself to so he can teleport the SA without touching them because they
had Naruto's and Minato's chakra, and he can use Minato's Kunais because he linked himself to Minato's chakra as well.

If this thing was not necessary  then
1- Kishi wouldn't have put the effort to draw those panels.
2- Tobirama wouldn't have asked for that.
3- Tobirama would have used it directly without asking or touching Minato's shoulder. 

anyway, as I said, I do not know how to explain it more than that. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
Especially that this is getting to be very long. lol


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Minato doesn't have to. They were all giving it their all to stop Obito and Madara; if Minato could have created more clones he would have done so.



Tell me, why would Minato knowingly divide his chakra more than necessary when one clone was sufficient in accomplishing the task? 

Making more clones would have only succeeded in making whichever clone that jumped to Obito weaker overall.


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## Turrin (Jul 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, I do not know how much he can summon, but since his is weaker than both Kabuto (who also needed Oro's chakra) and Oro, I doubt he can summon that many. but that only assumption.


Considering he has more chakra than Orochimaru i'd guess he can summon more than Orochimaru.



> In case you haven't notice, Oro's ET improved after he took the knowledge from Kabuto when he took his chakra back.


Nowhere was this stated. In-fact it was stated that Orochimaru himself improved the efficiency of the technique by Tobirama. Don't see why the manga would intentionally mislead us.



> And Oro couldn't have possibly improve his ET during the time skip because he obviously couldn't do any thing with his jutsus being sealed via the SF. So the only time Kabuto can possible mean is the one in part 1.


So first your saying Orochimaru improved by gaining more knowledge about the technique; than your saying he needed his arms to improve. That doesn't make sense.



> There are only 2 things (that we know off at least) for the ET. Either using the people themselves to fight with their ability or the explosion tags. As for what Tobirama said, that has nothing to do with tactics, he is only going to revive him to ask him, just like how Oro brought the Hokages back to make sasuke ask them what he wants.


Gathering more knowledge about the situation has nothing to do with tactics. Come on now.



> I actually believed they used both to get to the battlefield, as they couldn't have possibly use only 1.
> Thus, Minato being better than Tobirama in both, which leads the latter to use a term that refer to both.


Doesn't matter because Tobirama was using Shunshin at the end. So Minato out-paced Tobirama's Shunshin to that degree; not FTG. Hell it doesn't even make sense that someone could out-pace someone elses FTG that extensively As FTG movement is instant, all that matters is activation speed, which Minato may be quicker in, but he could not be that much quick than Tobirama, given that we've directly see Tobirama activate FTG insanely quickly. 



> It does not matter if we know how it works or not, because that does not change the jutsu type itself.
> We do not know how Sasuke's jutsu works exactly either, does not mean it's not a teleportation jutsu


We don't even know if this is a Jutsu.



> Then kishi wouldn't have made Tobirama state it either. You are basically making a baseless assumption


Tobirama's statement was to set up the context. It would be superfluous for every single Kage to go on to state this is my limit.



> and it does not even make sense to begin with, otherwise Tobirama wouldn't have stated that he can't teleport everyone like Minato.


That was after Minato got BM.



> In addition, Minato was using Kurama's chakra which is as big as Hashirama's, so unless Tobirama have more chakra than Hashirama, yeah, you still makes no sense.


BM-Naruto's is a big as Hashirama's. KCM-Minato's is not.



> Except Minato was not aiming at that, and did not even think about it because he knew that he had a seal on the masked man (obito) and he can stop him right away, and thus he knew that madara won't be revived to begin with.


No matter what he was aiming at it would have been prudent to send another clone. Two attacks on Obito would be more likely to defeat him instead of one. This is the guy that Minato saw tank Rasengan and a Kunai stab years ago, so there is no reason why he would take the risk of just guessing one clone was enough.



> Also, for the other point, only Naruto knew that Obito was using different seals to seal the Juubi
> because he saw the RT before, and he has the other Bijuu's chakra. So again, you point don't stand
> as Minato did not know.


This is true, but it's kind of pointless to the overall point. They were trying to stop the villains at an important moment.



> He can, and he already did.
> A & B > kin & gin. It's already stated that they are the strongest tag team, and Minato was handling them by himself. On the other hand, in the first time Tobirama with the 2nd Raikage couldn't deal with a weaker team.


A&B are not better than Gin/Kin. And Minato was not beating them, it resulted in a draw.



> Obito & Kurama are also far stronger than Izuna.


How do we know whose stronger between Izuna and Obito. Kurama Minato had major help against and had to give his life to seal.



> dealing with 50-thousand...etc fodder is surely harder than dealing with 20 when you have 6 of your students with you.


Pre-Hebi Sasuke owned 1,000 Fodder. Are you really telling me Pre-Hebi-Sasuke >>>>>>>>> Minato > Tobirama?



> He clearly stated "fourth let me use the chakra link...etc" because he needs that.
> it's really obvious.


No he doesn't



> therwise explain why did not Tobirama teleported himself in the first time to Minato's Kunai?


Probably because it would take some time to FTG link, and Minato is faster with FTG anyway. They were trying to catch the Juubi as quickly as possible.



> He stated he had himself linked to Minato, Turrin please.


Show the panel...and do not post the one talking about chakra and not FTG Linking.



> How exactly the links have nothing to do with the chakra?
> When Minato and Naruto created the link between each other, how did they do that?
> Yes, with the chakra


That was chakra sharing, not a FTG Link


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