# Can the DBZ verse stop him?



## Immortal Soldier (Nov 1, 2008)




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## Immortal Soldier (Nov 1, 2008)

Also, can Juggernaut kill the DBZ verse?


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## strongarm85 (Nov 1, 2008)

No one in Dragonball Z verse would be able to hurt Juggernaut. All of the upper tier would be able to completely avoid him though. The best case scenario for dealing with Juggernaut is use Goku's Instant Transmission to move Juggernaught to another planet and just run away.


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## Immortal Soldier (Nov 1, 2008)

So basically a stalemate? Ok thanks


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## strongarm85 (Nov 1, 2008)

Not really a stalemate per say. More like the only real option to survive is to isolate Juggs in such a way that it'll be a really long time before he becomes a threat again.

Basically, the Universe itself is too large for Juggernaught to actually kill all of it, but theres not one thing in the verse that could even hurt him.


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## Lina Inverse (Nov 1, 2008)

Would using the Dragon Balls have an effect on Cain though?


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 1, 2008)

Shenron can't effect beings stronger than him without their consent.


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## beads (Nov 1, 2008)

strongarm85 said:


> No one in Dragonball Z verse would be able to hurt Juggernaut. All of the upper tier would be able to completely avoid him though. The best case scenario for dealing with Juggernaut is use Goku's Instant Transmission to move Juggernaught to another planet and just run away.



Pretty much this. Teleport him away.


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## Darklyre (Nov 1, 2008)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Shenron can't effect beings stronger than him without their consent.



Yup, and Cytorrak is miles and miles above Shenron.


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## BAD BD (Nov 1, 2008)

Silly bitch, your weapon cannot harm me. Do you know who the fuck I am?


-Juggernaut ​


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## Ork (Nov 1, 2008)

He is? Feats plox. 
Shenron has brought people back to life, de aged people, fucked with time, dimensions and so forth, also made people invincible, which is what cytorrak did.

Not saying he ISNT stronger, just want to know for sure.


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## mailer-daemon (Nov 1, 2008)

I know little about Juggernaut but just a few questions:
1.) How much power/damage is needed to hurt him? (Would he survive in a sun?)
2.) Is he immune to transmutation?


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Nov 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> He is? Feats plox.



Multiversal deity. Could create an entirely new race out of nothingness.

Also, Dr. Strange calls on this guy's power to create an unbreakable restraint (the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak).




> Shenron has brought people back to life



Cyttorak created a new species.




> de aged people,



Not impressive.




> fucked with time,



No.




> dimensions and so forth,



Even Goku can teleport people. Not so impressive.




> also made people invincible



No, he didn't.



Also, Shen Long failed to get rid off Nappa and Vegeta when they came to destroy Earth.

Kinda underwhelming.


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## Darklyre (Nov 1, 2008)

mailer-daemon said:


> I know little about Juggernaut but just a few questions:
> 1.) How much power/damage is needed to hurt him? (Would he survive in a sun?)
> 2.) Is he immune to transmutation?



1. Juggernaut is physically invulnerable to any mundane attacks that can't hurt Cytorrak. Basically, unless your punches are galaxy-busting you're not going to come close to killing him with physical damage. Juggernaut could take a nap in the sun and nothing would happen to him.

2. He's immune to mundane transmutation. Stuff like biological poisons, genetic manipulation, scientific weaponry, none of that stuff will work on him. Magical transmutation can work, but then again the caster has to exceed the amount of power Cytorrak gives him, which is usually a shitload.


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## Akatora (Nov 1, 2008)

I don't know much about Jug other then him being known as an unstoppable monster powered guy.

So was wondering if he'd survive the Evilbeam.

Or Boss Rabit


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## Darklyre (Nov 1, 2008)

Akatora said:


> I don't know much about Jug other then him being known as an unstoppable monster powered guy.
> 
> So was wondering if he'd survive the Evilbeam.
> 
> Or Boss Rabit



Easiest way to determine whether a spell could hurt him at full power is to ask:

"Can this attack hurt Marvel's Odin?"


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## Federer (Nov 1, 2008)

Teleport him to King Yemma.


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## Darklyre (Nov 1, 2008)

Sabakukyu said:


> Teleport him to King Yemma.



Which does...nothing?

Full power Juggernaut can punch his way through dimensional walls, just so you know.


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## mystictrunks (Nov 1, 2008)

Best bets to just keep teleporting him to some uninhabited planet.


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## Federer (Nov 1, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> Which does...nothing?
> 
> Full power Juggernaut can punch his way through dimensional walls, just so you know.



King Yemma sends him to hell, where Caine would have a boring live for ever. 

But who gives a f*ck if it would work or not, Goku will do it for the lulz.


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## Vynjira (Nov 1, 2008)

Where he would rule forever, or break free.. you mean.


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## Federer (Nov 1, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Where he would rule forever, or break free.. you mean.



Juggernaut, the ruler of Hell. It would be the best comic/manga-sale eva.


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## Fang (Nov 1, 2008)

Teleport Juggernaught to the Southern Galaxy. It'll take him years to get back to the Northern Galaxy. Thus a technical BFRing by Goku or Kid Buu or the Kaioushins.


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## Ax_ (Nov 1, 2008)

Ryoma Nagare said:


> Also, Shen Long failed to get rid off Nappa and Vegeta when they came to destroy Earth.



Should've just done the smart thing and wished for their transportation to explode, or something...
Don't remember why that never happened.

Anyway, DBZverse could dump him on another planet, and thats it, really.
No other way for them to deal with him, according to the info already shown here in this thread.


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## Immortal Soldier (Nov 1, 2008)

TWF said:


> Teleport Juggernaught to the Southern Galaxy. It'll take him years to get back to the Northern Galaxy. Thus a technical BFRing by Goku or Kid Buu or the Kaioushins.



What does BFR mean?


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## Wesker (Nov 1, 2008)

Battlefield removal.


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## Narcissus (Nov 1, 2008)

Well, with all the evidence, there is nothing the DBZverse could do to harm him since they clearly don't have people with powerful magic or mental attacks.  Only teleportation will work.

Just to throw this out there, there is a rather extensive thread on Broly vs Juggernaut here:


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## Aokiji (Nov 1, 2008)

Thing isa, Juggernaut can't do much to DBverse either. There is a huge speed difference.


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## Vynjira (Nov 1, 2008)

Correction, Juggernaut can kill anyone stupid enough to take hits or come in close enough for hits. 

Even Thor has decided the best way to deal with Juggernaut is to not deal with Juggernaut, teleportation. Spiderman also came to the conclusion avoidance or compliance was the only ways to deal with Juggernaut.

Tho he has used thunderclap to knock people out that were faster or could stay out of melee range.


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## Aokiji (Nov 1, 2008)

Is Juggernaut really Superman level in strength? Cuz that would be hardcore.


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## Fang (Nov 1, 2008)

Juggs is still going to spend many decades or centuries trying to get back to the Northern Galaxy.


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Nov 1, 2008)

Immortal Soldier said:


> What does BFR mean?





Keeper of Seven Keys said:


> Battlefield removal.



Aka By Fucking Ringout.


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## Immortal Soldier (Nov 1, 2008)

So he still wins because the Z warriors pussied out.


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## Aokiji (Nov 1, 2008)

My neg power seems to have weakened.


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## Wesker (Nov 1, 2008)

I don't think Juggs is as strong as pre crisis superman.


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## Vynjira (Nov 1, 2008)

Immortal Soldier said:


> So he still wins because the Z warriors pussied out.


Exactly.. last I checked it was assumed no DQs were allowed to solve match ups.


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## Immortal Soldier (Nov 1, 2008)

Can juggernautdie by old age? If that is the case, the Z warriors win by teleporting him far away and out living him. technically!


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## Vynjira (Nov 1, 2008)

Immortal Soldier said:


> Can juggernautdie by old age? If that is the case, the Z warriors win by teleporting him far away and out living him. technically!


No, Juggernaut is indestructible, immortal, inexhaustible and invincible. He can fight forever without breathing, eating or resting.


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## Immortal Soldier (Nov 1, 2008)

^Thats freakin badass.


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## Shock Therapy (Nov 1, 2008)

Immortal Soldier said:


> ^Thats freakin badass.



Duh. That's why he's called the Juggernaut.


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## Immortal Soldier (Nov 1, 2008)

^No....thats why he's called the Juggernaut BITCH!


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## Aokiji (Nov 1, 2008)

Keeper of Seven Keys said:


> I don't think Juggs is as strong as pre crisis superman.



Good that I wasn't talking about pre-crisis superman.


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## Wesker (Nov 1, 2008)

Well you said superman level. Can you specify which one you are talking about then?


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## Aokiji (Nov 1, 2008)

current, regular post crisis Superman. Earth one. After ICOE.


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## Wesker (Nov 1, 2008)

I think Juggernaut might be in his strength range. Current supes has been implied to be able to crack a planet but he doen't have any of the insane strength feats of silver age.


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## Aokiji (Nov 2, 2008)

Superman should easily be able to split planets.

He also ran the gears of a device that was al large as half of our solar system and whose eyes are as large as a planet.


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## Orion (Nov 2, 2008)

Size of the thing superman powered,yes..thats our sun in front of him.


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## Aokiji (Nov 2, 2008)




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## Orion (Nov 2, 2008)

When superman has been doing things like that,containing a black hole from escaping with his bare hands,been pulling small planetoids and cracking moons for over 8 years....add on the fact that he gets stronger over the years from solar energy absorption and that he got upgraded post infinite crisis....I don't see how anyone can think he can't crack a planet,several experts on kryptonians(batman,diana,kryptonians themselves)have stressed several times that superman could crack the world in half if he really wanted to.


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## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

I guess if you really wanted to argue that Superman couldn't, you could claim that that thing is extremely energy efficient and that the strength need to power that thing was a trillion times less than what would be needed otherwise.. 

..but thats only if you wanna argue for the sake of arguing ^^; Superman should be able to more than crack the world in half tho.


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## Orion (Nov 2, 2008)

Yeah he doesn't need the maggedon feat to prove that,whats really funny is the people claiming prime can't one shot a planet when he wrecks high heralds without trouble and moves planets ftl into different solar systems before people can even notice.


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## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

Their struggling to keep Superman in a field of strength comparable to Marvel..


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## Lina Inverse (Nov 2, 2008)

I believe supes can crack a planet if he really wanted to.

I mean, wasn't it stated before that if Supergirl flew to the moon at lightspeed or something she could bust it? And since kryptonians are basically the same, he could probably do it as well.

But for Juggs to match current supes...well, that's kinda hard to decide, granted if you take Jugg's invunerability _literally_.

Then again I don't think Juggs can hurt supes either, specially if he sundipped or something.


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## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

The idea of any Jugg vs Superman is that at some point Superman dies of old age. Thats actually how Juggs wins most of his match ups. Alot of beings can Avoid or Remove Juggernaut. The idea is to actually have them fight with no DQs.


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## Orion (Nov 2, 2008)

Meh supermen seem to be immortal under a sun thesedays with 1 million being able to survive to the 853rd century no problem...which doesn't make much sense considering kc superman aged...ah dc and your consistancy.


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## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

feitan said:


> Meh supermen seem to be immortal under a sun thesedays with 1 million being able to survive to the 853rd century no problem...which doesn't make much sense considering kc superman aged...ah dc and your consistancy.


Yes, but the idea I know I've mentioned before was eventually even the star will die and Juggernaut will still be there.

I do believe tho for the most part DC considers Superman mortal.


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## Orion (Nov 2, 2008)

Yeah they seem to consider every superman but new earth mortal lol.


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## Darklyre (Nov 2, 2008)

Different universes have different biologies for similarly-named races. Kryptonians in one universe have different powers, abilities, weaknesses, and biology from Kryptonians in another.

Earth-2 Superman was stronger than Earth-1, but had a human-like lifespan. KC Superman aged, but got stronger with time. Earth-Prime Superman was straight up Pre-Crisis, with no magic weakness, much more powerful stats, and a more pronounced dependence on yellow sunlight (he's not weak to red sunlight, he's weak to the absence of yellow solar radiation).


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## DeLarge (Nov 2, 2008)

Are you guys serious?.....DBZ Universe would kick the shit out of Juggy....Freeza blows up planet , no oxygen for Juggy go bye-bye...


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 2, 2008)

csipa said:


> Are you guys serious?.....DBZ Universe would kick the shit out of Juggy....Freeza blows up planet , no oxygen for Juggy go bye-bye...



If Juggernaut actually required oxygen that might pose a problem.

Seriously, you really should know what you are talking about before you post.


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## Enclave (Nov 2, 2008)

I love the whole argument of "teleport him somewhere else".  Why do I love it?  Because in order for say Goku to teleport somebody somewhere he first has to be touching them, then he needs to focus for a few seconds to find a ki signal (the further away it is the longer it takes) and then he teleports.  In the time Goku starts searching for a ki signature his skull would be crushed in.

Only the Kaio's and Buu have a teleport fast enough to do what is suggested.


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## Fang (Nov 2, 2008)

Enclave said:


> I love the whole argument of "teleport him somewhere else".  Why do I love it?  Because in order for say Goku to teleport somebody somewhere he first has to be touching them, then he needs to focus for a few seconds to find a ki signal (the further away it is the longer it takes) and then he teleports.  In the time Goku starts searching for a ki signature his skull would be crushed in.
> 
> Only the Kaio's and Buu have a teleport fast enough to do what is suggested.





TWF said:


> Teleport Juggernaught to the Southern Galaxy. It'll take him years to get back to the Northern Galaxy. *Thus a technical BFRing by Goku or Kid Buu or the Kaioushins.*



Reading the entire post helps.


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## Kind of a big deal (Nov 2, 2008)

Is there a comprehensive list of his feats abilities? From what I remember and hear I don't think he moves as fast as DBZ characters and he can't be stopped if he has momentum, but nothing on his magic resistance except for telepathy. There's a lot of different magical abilities in DBZ that are often overlooked. I know he's so strong because of magic in the first place, but that's not really a guarantee.

Buu absorbs him. You would get JUGGERNAUT BUU, I mean Buu would be the dominant part, he would have features of Juggernaut, but technically it's a win for Buu.

Or Babidi uses the evil in his heart to enslave him with magic. Majin Juggernaut. (might be too similar to Xavier's telepathy so probably wouldn't work, although it appeals to the evil in his heart rather than his intelligence, if it does work, Babidi can make his head a-splode)

Dabura's spit could also be magical. 

I have a feeling Spirit bomb might work too, because it also deals damage according to your alignment. Although that is guesswork.

Captain Ginyu could be able to exchange bodies with him.

Guldo can stop his movement, with a combination of time freeze and that weird force field thing of his. Not really sure what to do next, maybe remove his helmet? Nah never mind this wouldn't work after all. Guldo sucks.


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## Power16 (Nov 2, 2008)

All the magic you listed wouldn't effect Juggs thanks to Cyttorack magic which is much much much greater than anything in DB.

If Juggs doesn't want anyone touching him he can put up his shield which he rarely does because of invulnerability and unstoppable momentum and no one would be able to do jack. Juggs also has access to some of Cyttorack magic(i believe shrinking and growing, slowing the speed of an object, Thor's hammer...) which he's use a couple time in his career but tends to go with the brute strength method.


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## Kind of a big deal (Nov 2, 2008)

Even Buu? I mean that seems to work even if the one he absorbs is much stronger. He even absorbed the oldest Kai, which is the equivalent of their highest god.


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## Power16 (Nov 2, 2008)

And none of those gods compare to Cyttorack, think Odin(galaxy destroying powers, reality warp, soul manipulation, time manipulation, giving godly powers to people).


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## Kind of a big deal (Nov 2, 2008)

Buu can warp reality by powering up or even create rifts between dimensions by screaming really hard. And he has the potential to destroy the galaxy, albeit not that quickly. That's some serious power too, but I'm just saying he hasn't had any trouble absorbing magical beings so far, even the most magical ones. His absorbing power is really broken, I think he could absorb Juggernaut.

Or copy Cyttorack's magic by seeing it in action once.

Seriously Buu's potential is bigger than DBZ because of his abilities.


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## bitesize (Nov 2, 2008)

Buu absorbs Guldo and Captain Ginyu


Buu stops time.
Its super effective.

Buu switches bodies with Juggernaut. 
Its super effective.

Buu uses self destruct.
Its super effective.

Buu regenerates.
Juggernaut faints.

Fin.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 2, 2008)

bitesize said:


> Buu absorbs Guldo and Captain Ginyu
> 
> 
> Buu stops time.
> ...



Except for the fact that Ginyu's body switching technique won't work on Jugs you might have a point.

Actually, even if it did you still wouldn't have a point.

IIRC Ginyu is limited to what his new body can do sans the body switching technique, meaning Buu would only be able to do what Jugs can do, and I am not aware of Jugs having a self destruct ability (feel free to correct me about being limited to the what the new body can do or Jugs having a SD ability if I am wrong on either count). Also, Buu wouldn't regenerate (if Buu would be able to from a Jugs SD) since he would be inhabiting Buu's body (well, this is assuming Jugs can't SD; if he can then I guess he would also regenerate depending on the nature of the ability), Jugs would (if Buu would be able to from a Jugs SD) since he would be inhabiting Buu's body.

So yeah, think before you post.


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## Kind of a big deal (Nov 2, 2008)

Uhm I'm pretty sure he was being funny (I thought it was funny). Maybe you should lighten up a little.


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## Power16 (Nov 2, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Buu can warp reality by powering up or even create rifts between dimensions by screaming really hard. And he has the potential to destroy the galaxy, albeit not that quickly. That's some serious power too, but I'm just saying he hasn't had any trouble absorbing magical beings so far, even the most magical ones. His absorbing power is really broken, I think he could absorb Juggernaut.
> 
> Or copy Cyttorack's magic by seeing it in action once.
> 
> Seriously Buu's potential is bigger than DBZ because of his abilities.



Cyttorack lives in his own dimension. Destroying one planet at a time isn't galaxy busting so that's moot. And like i said unless Buu's magic is stronger than Cyttorack he's not bypassing Jugs invulnerability and what not. You saying you think Buu can absorb Juggs means nothing since you don't even seem to know what Juggs is capable off.

Lol, your going into a no limit zone and Buu has only copied abilities(has he even copied magic? i thought he just copied a couple ki techniques) from weaker beings since there's no one of Cyttorack caliber in DB. Cyttorack magic is beyond Buu.

bitesize:

Juggs has regeneration but no one will be bypassing his invulnerability so none of what you listed will do anything, the only option is too teleport him away though that will only work if Juggs doesn't have his shield up.


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## Antitard (Nov 2, 2008)

Why is cyttorak in this? It's juggernaut vs DBZ verse.. in Jugg fights Cyttorak never intervened and buttraped the galaxy, Jugg lost fights and won fights without Cyttorak coming out.. With that being said DBZ can absolutely stop him via Goku IT'ing him to the other end of the universe. Or any alien busts the planet Juggs is in leaving him to float in space. 

Using DBZ is a bad matchup since their verse consists of other planets, galaxies, and dimensions.. so yea he can be stopped.


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## Power16 (Nov 2, 2008)

It isn't about Cyttorack intervening but about DB magic effecting Juggs which can only happen if they bypass Cyttorack magic on Juggs which isn't going to happen. I'm pretty sure those that know about Juggs know that IT'ing him somewhere else is the only option for DB verse.


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## Darklyre (Nov 2, 2008)

Antitard said:


> Why is cyttorak in this? It's juggernaut vs DBZ verse.. in Jugg fights Cyttorak never intervened and buttraped the galaxy, Jugg lost fights and won fights without Cyttorak coming out.. With that being said DBZ can absolutely stop him via Goku IT'ing him to the other end of the universe. Or any alien busts the planet Juggs is in leaving him to float in space.
> 
> Using DBZ is a bad matchup since their verse consists of other planets, galaxies, and dimensions.. so yea he can be stopped.



That doesn't actually stop him, that just delays him by a few million years. Juggernaut doesn't actually require a surface to walk on. Jean Grey once tried lifting him up with TK and he simply walked forward in midair.


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## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

His soul is also bound to his body by Cyttorak's Magic.


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## Enclave (Nov 2, 2008)

TWF said:


> Reading the entire post helps.



Oh I did read the whole post.  You however did use Goku's name first so I decided to comment on him.

You also mentioned Buu.  Yes I already admitted he has a teleport fast enough to do that.  However it's something Buu would never do, he'd much rather fight it out and if he is losing he'd just run away.  Just the sort of crazy bastard he is.

The Kaios, again they wouldn't teleport him away.  To them that wouldn't be a solution as Jugs would still be out there causing problems for the universe.  They would need to find a way to actually stop him, which they cannot.

Besides, the thing is that teleporting him away isn't really a win is it?  It's more of a run away.  Besides, no time limit was put on the fight and since even the Gods in the Dragonball verse die of old age eventually Jugs cannot help but win.  Unless of course you still consider dead gods (since they are still corporeal) as capable of fighting Jugs at which point it's an eternal stalemate.


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## Immortal Soldier (Nov 2, 2008)

How fast is the juggernaut?


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## masamune1 (Nov 2, 2008)

Immortal Soldier said:


> How fast is the juggernaut?



Not very fast at all, though like most Marvel/ DC comic characters that does'nt stop him from dealing with people faster than him (as far as I know).

Still, he cannot win this fight. DBZ might not be able to harm him but there are still characters that he, too, is not able to kill. Majin Buu is a character he is unlikely to be able to do anything to, and even if he did Buu can reconstitue himself from his own _vapour_ and would return. Not that Juggernaut is capable of reducing Buu to vapour.

Buu is also immortal if I recall, so in the end even if the rest of DBZ die Buu would still live and it would be a stalemate, unless you count the fact that Buu has more abilities than Jugg's and would probably be able to play with him for all eternity.

Still, Jugg's would be dumped somewhere else so that won't matter. Forget Planet's- lock him in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and destroy the entrance. Piccolo did thta to Buu, but unlike Buu Juggernaut can't tear open the fabric of time and space, or teleport, and therefore will be stuck. 

Since Juggernaut cannot die I would consider that a DBZ victory. I would have thought the OBD would have rules for unkillable opponents.


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## Power16 (Nov 2, 2008)

masamune1 said:


> Not very fast at all, though like most Marvel/ DC comic characters that does'nt stop him from dealing with people faster than him (as far as I know).
> 
> Still, he cannot win this fight. DBZ might not be able to harm him but there are still characters that he, too, is not able to kill. Majin Buu is a character he is unlikely to be able to do anything to, and even if he did Buu can reconstitue himself from his own _vapour_ and would return. Not that Juggernaut is capable of reducing Buu to vapour.
> 
> ...



Right now i can't recall if Classic Juggs has any feats of this but i know 8th day and Trion does. Then again if Jugss would use more of the magic he was given by Cyttorack dimension hopping should probably be available to him but i digress.


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## BAD BD (Nov 2, 2008)

masamune1 said:


> Not very fast at all, though like most Marvel/ DC comic characters that does'nt stop him from dealing with people faster than him (as far as I know).
> 
> Still, he cannot win this fight. DBZ might not be able to harm him but there are still characters that he, too, is not able to kill. Majin Buu is a character he is unlikely to be able to do anything to, and even if he did Buu can reconstitue himself from his own _vapour_ and would return. Not that Juggernaut is capable of reducing Buu to vapour.
> 
> ...



He would just get more power and then punch through the dimension.


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## masamune1 (Nov 2, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> He would just get more power and then punch through the dimension.



He can't get more power.


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## BAD BD (Nov 2, 2008)

He can ask Cyttorak for more if he isn't fully powered already.




And if he is fully powered he can punch through the dimension.


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## Dark Serge (Nov 2, 2008)

Didn't Juggz fight onslaught at the beginning of the onslaught saga and lose? Or am i remembering wrong?  Also, didnt Bishop do something to him with electricity to stop him?


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## masamune1 (Nov 2, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> He can ask Cyttorak for more if he isn't fully powered already.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cyttorak will not give it too him. 

a) Cytorrak and Juggernaut do not get along, and

b) Cyttorak is not a part of this battle. That is outside interference.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 2, 2008)

masamune1 said:


> Cyttorak will not give it too him.
> 
> a) Cytorrak and Juggernaut do not get along, and
> 
> b) Cyttorak is not a part of this battle. That is outside interference.



I don't know much about Jugs, but if he is connected to Cyttorak and able to call on more power if he isn't at full power then that does not count as outside interference.


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## enzymeii (Nov 2, 2008)

Can't Buu punch through dimenional barriers also?  Like when he escaped the yperbolic time chamber.  Juggernaught's strength would therefore = top tier DBZ... except he can't fly, teleport or shoot Ki blasts.

*BDZ*


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## masamune1 (Nov 2, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> I don't know much about Jugs, but if he is connected to Cyttorak and able to call on more power if he isn't at full power then that does not count as outside interference.



He is not connected to Cyttorak. Cyttorak placed a portion of his power in a gem and Juggernaut derived his power from that portion. If he wants more then he has to actually ask the guy. 

For a long time I don't think tht Juggernaut even _knew_ about Cyttorak. And Cyttorak only placed that power in there as part of a bet- Juggernaut is just a tool to him, and a tool not doing it's job for all that.

There have been plenty of occasions where Juggernaut could have used extra power and did not get it, ask for it, or even consider it, such as against Onslaught (yes, Dark Serge, he did beat him) or Apocalypse's War Hulk. 

He is not getting any power, not without Cyttorak's illegal involvement.



enzymeii said:


> Can't Buu punch through dimenional barriers *also? * Like when he escaped the yperbolic time chamber.  Juggernaught's strength would therefore = top tier DBZ... except he can't fly, teleport or shoot Ki blasts.
> 
> *BDZ*



Not *also*, because Jugg's should'nt be able to do that, not with his standard/ classic power.

The rest is right, and shows Juggernaut to be no real threat to this universe. If he was regularly beaten by a bunch of teenage mutants and his handicapped elderly brother, a bunch of superhuman martial artists who include a few who can blow up planets are going to be a problem.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 2, 2008)

Come to think of it, how can he call on Cyttorak from within DBZ? It's only Juggernaut in DBZ, right?

You know, they don't need to teleport him to remove from a battlefield. He's difficult to hurt but not extremely heavy, and even if he was, the DBZ guys could still lift him easily. So they can just throw him halfway into space.

Besides DBZ being underrated with magic, they are also underrated with technology. Actual androids with feelings, time travelling devices, interstellar travel, whatever the technology is to create Cell, you name it. For example, they could travel back in time and prevent Juggernaut from even existing. Not really sure how this could work, but it would actually be in-character with the DBZ verse.

Or Dr Gero could develop an android or some creature, created with the sole purpose of defeating Juggernaut.

Or they could wish with the dragon balls for him to be teleported to the afterlife. Also a technical knockout. He's not dead, only relocated and unable to reach the physical living realm ever again, because teleporting between the afterlife and the current dimension is a feat that Shenron can manage. For some reason the afterlife is accessible in DBZ without existing in the physical realm.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Nov 2, 2008)

I guess this could be a stalemate since DBZ cannot win and Jugs can't be killed.


----------



## Antitard (Nov 2, 2008)

Power16 said:


> It isn't about Cyttorack intervening but about DB magic effecting Juggs which can only happen if they bypass Cyttorack magic on Juggs which isn't going to happen. I'm pretty sure those that know about Juggs know that IT'ing him somewhere else is the only option for DB verse.


Not really, Juggs can pummel earth all he wants, he still has to destroy the rest of the galaxy and 3 more, and heaven and hell. Juggs won't be able to destroy DBZ verse...




Darklyre said:


> That doesn't actually stop him, that just delays him by a few million years. Juggernaut doesn't actually require a surface to walk on. Jean Grey once tried lifting him up with TK and he simply walked forward in midair.



No, him walking in midair doesn't mean he walked without a surface. He simply "pushed through" the TK, since "nothing" can stop him. Scans of him walking without any surface, otherwise he'd be flying to different plants now. 

This match up was stupid to begin with. DBZ verse is composed of 4 galaxies and different dimensions,  stopping him logically means them surviving from destruction. Juggs has NO WAY of destroying DBZ verse while DBZ verse has enough ways to immobilize Juggs. 

Also this is Juggs, not trion juggs (When cytorrak basically took control) so no punching dimensions, sorry. So trapping him in a dimension works. Also Cyttorak has been punked by Juggs so many times, Cain's will > Cyttorak's control.

Edit: This is NOT a stalemate. Basically, they don't have to do anything to stop him since they're still going to be living. Juggs won't be able to go planet to planet to destroy the verse.. so


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 2, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Come to think of it, how can he call on Cyttorak from within DBZ? It's only Juggernaut in DBZ, right?
> 
> You know, they don't need to teleport him to remove from a battlefield. He's difficult to hurt but not extremely heavy, and even if he was, the DBZ guys could still lift him easily. So they can just throw him halfway into space.



Except that they would get turned into paste if they tried to get that close to him to throw him.



> Besides DBZ being underrated with magic, they are also underrated with technology. Actual androids with feelings, time travelling devices, interstellar travel, whatever the technology is to create Cell, you name it. For example, they could travel back in time and prevent Juggernaut from even existing. Not really sure how this could work, but it would actually be in-character with the DBZ verse.



Can't go back in time and affect someone who was never in DBverse before the fight begins.



> Or Dr Gero could develop an android or some creature, created with the sole purpose of defeating Juggernaut.



No, no he can't.



> Or they could wish with the dragon balls for him to be teleported to the afterlife. Also a technical knockout. He's not dead, only relocated and unable to reach the physical living realm ever again, because teleporting between the afterlife and the current dimension is a feat that Shenron can manage. For some reason the afterlife is accessible in DBZ without existing in the physical realm.



Well besides the fact that it's debatable whether or not Shenron could even affect Jugs, that wouldn't matter.

There is no BFRing in this fight.  If it's Jugs actually in DBverse then all of DBverse constitutes the battlefield.  So no matter where they teleport him, he is still in the battlefield thus it's not BFRing.

If it's not him in the verse and the fight takes place in the OBD standard arena, they still can't BFR him unless you have proof of DB characters being able to teleport people between different universes.

The fight is a stalemate.


----------



## IsoloKiro (Nov 2, 2008)

Well they could do what World War Hulk did to him. Wait til he runs, then shoot off a kamehameha or something to send him into space.


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 2, 2008)

rawrawraw said:


> I guess this could be a stalemate since DBZ cannot win and Jugs can't be killed.



It is a win for Juggs because they can't stop him.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Nov 2, 2008)

IsoloKiro said:


> Well they could do what World War Hulk did to him. Wait til he runs, then shoot off a kamehameha or something to send him into space.


And that accomplishes what, exactly? He's still in the DBverse and now only Cell and Buu would have any sort of a shot at trying to fight him. And there's the possibility that Juggs simply smacks the Kamehameha away or just walks through it since it certainly doesn't have anywhere near the force needed to stop his momentum.


----------



## Nihonjin (Nov 2, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> Except that they would get turned into paste if they tried to get that close to him to throw him.



He's that fast huh?
And can't they just send him beam surfin' into space though?



> No, no he can't.



Because you said so?
Both Babidi & Gero made creatures capable of absorbing other things in order to get stronger, I'm sure they can come up with something similar that'd actually work on Juggs, they've plenty of time.



> Well besides the fact that it's debatable whether or not Shenron could even affect Jugs, that wouldn't matter.
> 
> There is no BFRing in this fight.  If it's Jugs actually in DBverse then all of DBverse constitutes the battlefield.  So no matter where they teleport him, he is still in the battlefield thus it's not BFRing.
> 
> If it's not him in the verse and the fight takes place in the OBD standard arena, they still can't BFR him unless you have proof of DB characters being able to teleport people between different universes.



They don't need to kill him, just stop him from destroying their world.
If they get him in GarlicJrs Dead zone thing or the time chamber and destroy the entrance he's effectively stopped and they win.

They should be able to pull it off really.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 2, 2008)

Well, Itachi would definitely stop him with Genjutsu. 


Ah ha ha, no but seriously, the Juggernaut can tangle with the DBZ boys? Did not know that. Just out of curiosity, what happens if he meets any of the following:

1. Shenron?

2. Evil Containment Wave?

3. Buu's candy beam?

4. Mind-fucking?



In particular, that last one. IIRC, Professor Xavier has always been able to stop Juggy with his mind-taking, and there are a few DBZ characters who have that card up their sleeves as well.


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 2, 2008)

Nihonjin said:


> He's that fast huh?
> And can't they just send him beam surfin' into space though?



So what if they send him off into space?  That wouldn't do anything at all, since it is still part of the battlefield.





> Because you said so?
> Both Babidi & Gero made creatures capable of absorbing other things in order to get stronger, I'm sure they can come up with something similar that'd actually work on Juggs, they've plenty of time.



Prove they can come up with away to get by Jugs magical defenses.




> They don't need to kill him, just stop him from destroying their world.
> If they get him in GarlicJrs Dead zone thing or the time chamber and destroy the entrance he's effectively stopped and they win.
> 
> They should be able to pull it off really.



Uh, yes they do need to kill him (or completely incapacitate him).  If they put him there and trap him there, it's still a stalemate because that is part of the DBverse and the battlefield is the whole DBverse.

No matter where they send him, it's still on the battlefield.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Nov 2, 2008)

No ki beam in DB is going to do more than make Juggs laugh. 

I don't think Gero or Babidi would have enough time to make whatever it was they wanted to(Gero, at least) before Juggs decimates the planet they're on.

How the hell are they supposed to get Cain in the Dead Zone or the RoSaT? Ask him really, really nicely?


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

masamune1 said:


> such as against Onslaught (yes, Dark Serge, he did beat him)


Juggernaut had lost his powers in the arc before Onslaught during his time in the Exiles Universe.





> or Apocalypse's War Hulk.


Which by revelation is also post Juggernaut's return from the Ultraverse.

*Feb 1996: Juggernaut returned from the Ultraverse. May 1996: he encountered Onslaught, Sep 1997: he ran into War Hulk.*

So no, both instances are in-fact a weakened Juggernaut. Despite all arguments prior believing he was at full power.


----------



## Antitard (Nov 2, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Juggernaut had lost his powers in the arc before Onslaught during his time in the Exiles Universe.Which by revelation is also post Juggernaut's return from the Ultraverse.
> .



Scans? I don't remember him losing his powers prior to Onslaught taking the gem.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

Antitard said:


> Scans? I don't remember him losing his powers prior to Onslaught taking the gem.


Exiles, you can check Marvel.com and (Malibu)All-New Exiles #1-4 in google for the details.. I am currently trying to purchase the issue using my debit card as noone seems to have read the exiles issues. So if you can be patient. Or look up the written reviews of the issues on other sites.


----------



## superattackpea (Nov 2, 2008)

i'd just like to add one thing, not sure if this has any real presidence or not though. but while juggernaught is able to punch through dimensions, the lower mid-high level fighers of the bd verse are able to make dimnensional holes simpley by yelling.


----------



## Fang (Nov 2, 2008)

Enclave said:


> Oh I did read the whole post.  You however did use Goku's name first so I decided to comment on him.



Which was pointless.



> You also mentioned Buu.  Yes I already admitted he has a teleport fast enough to do that.  However it's something Buu would never do, he'd much rather fight it out and if he is losing he'd just run away.  Just the sort of crazy bastard he is.



Since nothing says otherwise, PIS and CIS are off. So Buu can do so if he wants to and will probably do so in any case.



> The Kaios, again they wouldn't teleport him away.  To them that wouldn't be a solution as Jugs would still be out there causing problems for the universe.  They would need to find a way to actually stop him, which they cannot.



There is the Southern Galaxy which is mostly barren. Solution right there.



> Besides, the thing is that teleporting him away isn't really a win is it?  It's more of a run away.  Besides, no time limit was put on the fight and since even the Gods in the Dragonball verse die of old age eventually Jugs cannot help but win.  Unless of course you still consider dead gods (since they are still corporeal) as capable of fighting Jugs at which point it's an eternal stalemate.



Considering how out living your opponent isn't a path to victory in the OBD, BFRing is still allowed. Thus its still a draw.


----------



## azngamer87 (Nov 2, 2008)

Dbz can win this by ring removal only. Buu can absorb Guldo and Garlic jr. Buu freezes time and then he activate the dead zone which will suck in juggs. Thus the dbzverse wins by ring out.


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 2, 2008)

azngamer87 said:


> Dbz can win this by ring removal only. Buu can absorb Guldo and Garlic jr. Buu freezes time and then he activate the dead zone which will suck in juggs. Thus the dbzverse wins by ring out.





Did you even read the thread?  They can't remove him from the ring because the whole verse is the ring.  They can't send him out of the verse, so they can't ring him out.


----------



## azngamer87 (Nov 2, 2008)

I read the TC first post and all he ask is can they stop him. So, as I said in my first post buu send him to the dead zone. It's a techincal win since DBZ can't kill him, but juggs will be isolated from the rest of the verse.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

Antitard if your still there the first issue is done. Watch this post I'll be hosting images for it.

BTW, I'm hoping for some serious rep for these scans, as I believe NOONE has provided these before.
*Spoiler*: _Noticing the effects of alcohol_ 







This is the first issue they don't comment any further about it in that issue.


----------



## Sengoku (Nov 2, 2008)

juggie vs doomsday :amazed? (not talking about the pic above)

I would like to see a 3 way matchup between jug, doomsday, and hulk. X)


----------



## Orion (Nov 2, 2008)

Hulk would be out of that match rather quickly,and its pretty much a eternal stalemate between doomsday and juggy.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 2, 2008)

feitan said:


> Hulk would be out of that match rather quickly,and its pretty much a eternal stalemate between doomsday and juggy.


Doomsday can die round 1.

Issue #3 has an error, Issue #4 is done but it only mentions that Juggernaut is going to encounter the Tradesmen in Issue #5 which is when he's returned. and #2 and #5 are each 5% 8% complete.

When they get done I'll see if I can't get Id to host the entire issues for us in the NF Trading Post.


----------



## Fenix (Nov 3, 2008)

Didn't Cytorrak pass out after getting punched once by Cain?


----------



## Orion (Nov 3, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Doomsday can die round 1.
> 
> Issue #3 has an error, Issue #4 is done but it only mentions that Juggernaut is going to encounter the Tradesmen in Issue #5 which is when he's returned. and #2 and #5 are each 5% 8% complete.
> 
> When they get done I'll see if I can't get Id to host the entire issues for us in the NF Trading Post.



Took post crisis supes and precrisis superman to knock doomsday out last time...so no I don't see doomsday dying before hulk does.


----------



## Lina Inverse (Nov 3, 2008)

Would WAR Hulk make any difference?


----------



## Immortal Soldier (Nov 3, 2008)

How will Hulk die? He will keep getting angrier and he will keep regeneing.

And, for the guy who said ring out counts. No it doesnt. I said "Stop Juggs". Moving him isnt stopping him. Because Juggs will still out live DBZ. And Goku will feel like a loser anyways, knowing far after his time, Juggs will be back to wreck havoc on the Earth. Goku will be all stressed out and want to make sure Juggs is out of commission


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> Did you even read the thread?  They can't remove him from the ring because the whole verse is the ring.  They can't send him out of the verse, so they can't ring him out.



Yes they can. Goping by your logic, it's never possible to remove someone from the ring because the entire universe is the ring. throwing someone into space=ringout. Teleporting someone where he can't harm you=ringout.

Juggernaut still loses by ringout. Just like Superman would beat him by throwing him into the sun.


----------



## mystictrunks (Nov 3, 2008)

feitan said:


> Took post crisis supes and precrisis superman to knock doomsday out last time...so no I don't see doomsday dying before hulk does.



. . . He got one shoted, I don't think that one counts. . .


----------



## Immortal Soldier (Nov 3, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> Yes they can. Goping by your logic, it's never possible to remove someone from the ring because the entire universe is the ring. throwing someone into space=ringout. Teleporting someone where he can't harm you=ringout.
> 
> Juggernaut still loses by ringout. Just like Superman would beat him by throwing him into the sun.



Could Juggernaut tank the suns heat?


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 3, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> Yes they can. Goping by your logic, it's never possible to remove someone from the ring because the entire universe is the ring. throwing someone into space=ringout. Teleporting someone where he can't harm you=ringout.
> 
> Juggernaut still loses by ringout. Just like Superman would beat him by throwing him into the sun.



Except that not all fights are verse matches.

The fight is against the whole verse, the whole verse is the ring.  It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

Unless you wanna say the fight takes place in the standard OBD arena, where a ring out still isn't going to work.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Immortal Soldier said:


> Could Juggernaut tank the suns heat?



Easily.



Snake Plissken said:


> Except that not all fights are verse matches.
> 
> The fight is against the whole verse, the whole verse is the ring.  It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.
> 
> Unless you wanna say the fight takes place in the standard OBD arena, where a ring out still isn't going to work.



They could neutralize the threat that is the Juggernaut.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 3, 2008)

I got it. 

They wish with the dragonballs to make a saiyan immortal. technically it doesn't even matter who, but a full saiyan is preferable.

Then they send both of them to a distant planet to fight. At first he wouldn't be able to hurt Juggernaut, but saiyans being what they are, get stronger and stronger when they are fighting and get beaten. Eventually the saiyan will get so strong that his power surpasses that of Juggernaut and even Cyttorak if he draws from that. Because he can't die and just keep getting stronger no matter what, he's fated to surpass his opponent at some point.

Imagine if Freeza was a close to omnipotent universe buster, and Goku had been immortal. His fight would have lasted even longer (I would hate to have to watch that), but in the end Goku would have won because of the edge that he gets from immortality and his saiyan heritage.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I got it.
> 
> They wish with the dragonballs to make a saiyan immortal. technically it doesn't even matter who, but a full saiyan is preferable.
> 
> ...



You don't beat omnipotents......


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 3, 2008)

They can only get stronger, so eventually they will. It would take very long. Juggernaut isn't omnipotent either by the way so the tactic still works.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> They can only get stronger, so eventually they will. It would take very long. Juggernaut isn't omnipotent either by the way so the tactic still works.



 You don't beat omnipotents. By definition. Period. You said if omnipotent Freeza fought immortal Goku, Goku would win, which is impossible. He could just rearrange his genes so that he doesn't get stronger after surviving deadly situations. Or he'd just take away his immortality. It's pretty hard to get stronger if you've been punched to paste.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 3, 2008)

I did say 'Close to omnipotent'.

Whatever, these are technicalities that don't change the tactic for beating Juggernaut anyway. Immortal saiyan only gets stronger no matter what, Juggernaut would eventually lose.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> It's pretty hard to get stronger if you've been punched to paste.



**


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 3, 2008)

Garlic Jr who was wished immortal by the dragon balls could regen back to peak level.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Garlic Jr. ain't cannon.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 3, 2008)

Oh but every single possible version of Juggernaut people can think of is canon?

Regardless, immortality is immortality. We don't know how it works exactly in canon, the only hint we have is Garlic jr. So it's not unreasonable to assume the ball's immortality gives you regen. Immortality wouldn't work any other way in DBZ where every single cell can be destroyed.

Anyways, the same principle applies if Buu and a saiyan use the potera earrings to fuse. Only gets stronger and can't be destroyed.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 3, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I got it.
> 
> They wish with the dragonballs to make a saiyan immortal. technically it doesn't even matter who, but a full saiyan is preferable.
> 
> ...


This is the definition of no-limits fallacy. Its never even suggested that they can keep getting stronger forever. At some point the Saiyan would reach its physical limits and need a transformation to exceed those limitations.. and then those transformations would reach their limits.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 3, 2008)

But Juggernaut is apparently stronger than they are so at least they should be able to be as strong as him. That's a reasonable limit, I would think.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 3, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> But Juggernaut is apparently stronger than they are so at least they should be able to be as strong as him. That's a reasonable limit, I would think.


Why? Because saiyan DNA is reinforced with Cyttorak's Magic? Cyttorak's magic is what gives Juggernaut his powers. Saiyans have their DNA which makes them stronger than humans and stronger as they fight. Drawing a conclusion that they can always become stronger to no end or even to match a character who isn't bound by the physical limits of his species.


----------



## Di@BoLik (Nov 3, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> This is the definition of no-limits fallacy. Its never even suggested that they can keep getting stronger forever. *At some point the Saiyan would reach its physical limits and need a transformation to exceed those limitations.. and then those transformations would reach their limits.*



Where was that suggested?


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 3, 2008)

Di@BoLik said:


> Where was that suggested?


Almost synonymously with the Super Saiyan form especially during the RoSaT training.


----------



## Orion (Nov 3, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> . . . He got one shoted, I don't think that one counts. . .



He didn't get oneshoted,he took a suprise shot from both supermen,punched post crisis supes once and made him bleed,took a knee to the face from earth 2 supes then they finnally both punched him in the face at the same time and he was knocked out/killed,being able to take a shot at all from earth 2 supes says he should be able to outlast hulk,and current doomsday should be even stronger than before.


----------



## Di@BoLik (Nov 3, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Almost synonymously with the Super Saiyan form especially during the RoSaT training.



So would End DBZ Goku need to go super saiyan to defeat Frieza?


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 3, 2008)

So Vyn Juggernaut was weakened while elsewhere...why do you say he was still depowered when he fought Onslaught?
I mean, Doc Strange was pretty awed by what Onslaught had done to Cain so it's not like it was easy.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 3, 2008)

The Anti-Existence said:


> So Vyn Juggernaut was weakened while elsewhere...why do you say he was still depowered when he fought Onslaught?
> I mean, Doc Strange was pretty awed by what Onslaught had done to Cain so it's not like it was easy.


He lost favor with Cyttorak and began to weaken. When he returned he was still weakened. Its the same reasoning that Cyttorak gave him when he went to protect Xavier from Hulk. "A weak reason and so you were weak" during his time in the ultraverse he had gone soft. The fact he tried to warn the X-Men about Onslaught proves that his behavior was limiting his power further.

It doesn't matter if Dr. Strange was awed or not.. anyone who knew him would be.. before he left he was still unstoppable Juggernaut. The moment he came back he was involved in the Onslaught arc. Noone had seen him until then, so awe is to be expected.





Di@BoLik said:


> So would End DBZ Goku need to go super saiyan to defeat Frieza?


According to what Goku said to Gohan yes. According to what Vegeta and Trunks were talking about yes. According to Dr. Gero fight... they missed that event entirely. They had no expected them to be that powerful. Suggesting 19 and 20 were weaker than Freeza yet Goku and Vegeta needed to transform. Piccolo had some of his energy drained and he was still stronger than Dr. Gero further cementing the idea that they were weaker than Freeza.


----------



## masamune1 (Nov 3, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I got it.
> 
> They wish with the dragonballs to make a saiyan immortal. technically it doesn't even matter who, but a full saiyan is preferable.
> 
> ...



Isn't it "they get stronger and stronger every time they are *near death?*" As in, Vegeta could lose a thousand fights but if he is'nt actually mortally wounded in these fights, nothing will happen to his power.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works, which means that this won't. If Goku or any other Saiyan is immortal, they can't be mortally wounded and hence will have to train to get stronger. 

I don't see what the issue is, though. Being stronger than Juggernaut isn't the same as being able to kill him. And besides that, Goku and most other top DBZ characters are already strong enough to deal with him fairly easily, since the are casual planet busters and he is not. They can treat him like an indestructable rag doll.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 3, 2008)

> It doesn't matter if Dr. Strange was awed or not.. anyone who knew him would be.. before he left he was still unstoppable Juggernaut. The moment he came back he was involved in the Onslaught arc. Noone had seen him until then, so awe is to be expected.



The fact remains Onslaught could still trap Cain's soul within the Gem. I don't remember his Classic levels having protection against that.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 3, 2008)

The Anti-Existence said:


> The fact remains Onslaught could still trap Cain's soul within the Gem. I don't remember his Classic levels having protection against that.


..and your point?


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Vynjira, I think this is not a no limits fallacy.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 3, 2008)

Think what isn't?


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Saiyans getting stronger if they escape death. That's like saying Juggernaut isn't invulnerable.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 3, 2008)

> ..and your point?



Aren't there people in DBZ who can manipulate souls? I can't think of any examples right now but I'm sleep deprived so there might be.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 3, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> Saiyans getting stronger if they escape death. That's like saying Juggernaut isn't invulnerable.


The difference is the magical nature of Juggernaut's powers vs the biological nature of a saiyan's abilities.

At some point their bodies reach their physical limit and need something to exceed that limit. Whether it be magical, technological, chemical, or so on. It was brought up by Goku that even Super Saiyan form had its limits and that they'd need to find a new form to surpass those limits.





The Anti-Existence said:


> Aren't there people in DBZ who can manipulate souls? I can't think of any examples right now but I'm sleep deprived so there might be.


Don't believe they have anything along the line of what Onslaught did to which, Onslaught had access to Juggernaut's gem to accomplish the feat.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Nov 3, 2008)

Juggernaut can travel interdimensionally via the Crimson Cosmos and cross great distances in an instant. BFR will not work. 

Anything that comes within his forcefield is slowed down: see Thor's hammer. As soon as Goku touches him to teleport, he's the same speed or slower and gets ripped in half.


----------



## Federer (Nov 3, 2008)

This is not only about Goku, they can also ask the Kai or Shenron to teleport Juggernaut away, defeating Juggernaut is impossible for them.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 3, 2008)

Getting ripped in half does nothing to Buu.


----------



## Nihonjin (Nov 3, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> So what if they send him off into space?  That wouldn't do anything at all, since it is still part of the battlefield.



True, it wouldn't do em much good other than delay for god knows how long.



> Prove they can come up with away to get by Jugs magical defenses./QUOTE]
> 
> Its pure speculation, there is no proof.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 3, 2008)

Nihonjin said:


> The conditions are Juggernaut either destroys the entire verse, or he loses. And if he's permanently stuck somewhere then the DBZ verse survives, which is all they need to do to win. They don't have to kill him at all, just prevent him from killing them.



Actually the conditions are they have to stop him, which the TC already has said means they literally have to stop him, not just dump him somewhere where he can't get to them.  Otherwise, it's a tie (since he most likely isn't gonna be taking everyone in DBverse which he needs to do for it to be a victory for him).


----------



## Enclave (Nov 3, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I got it.
> 
> They wish with the dragonballs to make a saiyan immortal. technically it doesn't even matter who, but a full saiyan is preferable.
> 
> ...



No limits fallacy.  Besides, it seemed pretty clear that Vegeta did indeed reach his limit in the Buu Saga which is why he allowed Babidi's spell to take control, it allowed him to artificially surpass his own limits.  Goku was also nearing his limits.  Gohan was brought up to his limit by the Chou power-up that the old Kai gave him.

Basically, there will come a point in all Saiyans lives where they just cannot get stronger.  Vegeta reached that point, Gohan reached that point, Goku was getting close.  None of them though would be able to hope to match against Juggs.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 3, 2008)

Juggernaut cannot survive time stop.

Buu absorbs Guldo which gives him unlimited time stop.
Buu proceeds to absorb Juggernaut in time stop.. since time is stopped Juggernaut can provide no resistance. (He also takes off his helmet). 

Buugernaut is born. Proceeds to destroy DBZ Verse.


----------



## Power16 (Nov 3, 2008)

Nope Buu still won't be able to absorb him, Thor has time based power with his hammer and he still came to the conclusion that sending Juggs away is the best way to deal with him. What does time stopping have to do with Cyttorack magic on Juggs, its still there. Helmet is only for tp resistance. But if this is a joke, then yay for you!


----------



## Darklyre (Nov 3, 2008)

Nihonjin said:


> The conditions are Juggernaut either destroys the entire verse, or he loses. And if he's permanently stuck somewhere then the DBZ verse survives, which is all they need to do to win. They don't have to kill him at all, just prevent him from killing them.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said they win by ring out, they win by making him useless.



Actually, the conditions are either Juggernaut destroys the entire verse, or he is stopped by the DBZ characters. Both cases aren't viable, therefore the best you can get is a draw. Remember, he actually has to be STOPPED. This means BFR isn't a viable solution.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 4, 2008)

buu isn't absorbing Juggernaut.....














bama


----------



## Gary (Nov 4, 2008)

No one has a chance of even hurting him.
bama


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 4, 2008)

Guldo removes his helmet, or they wish for his helmet to be relocated with the dragonballs. Maybe relocated to the afterlife so he has to die if he wants to retrieve it.

Then when he is vulnerable to telepathy, he's a prey for Tien, Chiaozu or more importantly, Babidi who makes his head asplode with mind control. If someone lowly like Xavier can do it, than the ancient wizard Babidi who can control monsters like Buu and Dabura (king of hell lets not underestimate that either) can do it easily.

This is like the 10th or so idea I conceived haha XD


----------



## Power16 (Nov 4, 2008)

Lol, They would have to know that his helmet protect against tp and doesn't mean he's still not invulnerable so Babidi wouldn't be making his head explode. Lowly like Xavier, wow i'm not even going to bother with that one. Yeah i think you should stop!


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 4, 2008)

OP said can they stop him, they can't
/end thread.


----------



## Federer (Nov 4, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> OP said can they stop him, they can't
> /end thread.



No, the OP asked, can they kill him. The answer? No.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Unless, somehow one of the Saiyans, or both (Vegeta and Goku) wishes to become immortal, they have a chance. They get every battle stronger, so theoreticly they can fight each other for ever, till the Super Saiyans overcome "Cyttorak" which isn't omnipotent, but very VERY VERY powerful. The question is, are the saiyans smart enough to wish themselves immortal? Another question is, would they want to fight a long time? They can simply ask the eternal dragon to replace him or ask one of the kai to move him somewhere else, that would take care of him, for a while.


----------



## Power16 (Nov 4, 2008)

No i don't see the Saiyans reaching Cyttorack level even with immortality. Your basically saying that if they wish for immortality and you put them against anyone under Omnipotent they'll eventually get stronger than them, do i have to start throwing some names out there to see how ridiculous that sounds.


----------



## Federer (Nov 4, 2008)

Power16 said:


> No i don't see the Saiyans reaching Cyttorack level even with immortality. Your basically saying that if they wish for immortality and you put them against anyone under Omnipotent they'll eventually get stronger than them, do i have to start throwing some names out there to see how ridiculous that sounds.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Wtf? Did I read the wrong manga? Or saw the wrong anime? _"The more a Saiyan fights, the stronger a saiyan gets"._ _"The stronger the opponent, the stronger the saiyan afterwards"._ (see Vegeta battling Zarbon, he got raped first time, owned second time, first time against Recoome owned, next battle against Jeice (has more powerlevel than Recoome) owned).

Why can't the saiyan become stronger than Cyttorak? As Garlic Jr. (immortal) showed us, they could even regenerate after a heavily wound, after their immortality, they don't need stuff like senzu beans. Or is Garlic Jr. accomplishment filler? That could be possible, because I didn't read the manga of that arc.




And even then, they still have other options, which I mentioned. But those other options CANNOT kill him.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 4, 2008)

and even becoming more powerful than him physically or with energy blasts still doesn't bypass the magical invulnerability. Even if they could surpass Cyttorak which is impossible, the physical damage wouldn't kill him they'd have to switch to more metaphysical abilities to  kill him.

As Enclave said, they have limits. The Saiyans do not get stronger after each fight TO NO END. They get stronger to a point.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 4, 2008)

Stop making fanfiction. They can get still get stronger, but they would only be limited to their normal powers. And they could still be beaten by people who are above them, so it's not really a no limits fallacy.


----------



## Federer (Nov 4, 2008)

@Vynjira & Aokiji,

you said exactly what I wanted to say. They get stronger in there area (ki-blasts, psychical strength, speed etc), they don't get magical powers etc. which is true, but still, it should be able to hurt the Juggernaut if you surpass some limit? 

But who cares, they just can become strong enough to "defeat" Jugs. But like I said, they can better ask the eternal dragon or one of the Kai to teleport him away somewhere in the universe where he can't bother innocent people.


----------



## Power16 (Nov 4, 2008)

Ki-blast, strength and speed is not what their going to need to stop Juggs since most of the people who go against him have more physical stats then him just don't have the mean to bypass his magic and the DBZ cast won't be doing that with immortality either.


----------



## Federer (Nov 4, 2008)

Allright, their last resort is to BFR him with teleportation then. And the OP got his answer, they can't kill the Juggernaut.


----------



## Power16 (Nov 4, 2008)

Basically the option most have come up with.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 4, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> They can get still get stronger, but they would only be limited to their normal powers. And they could still be beaten by people who are above them, so it's not really a no limits fallacy.


No it REALLY is a no-limits fallacy.

The whole point is that while something that has shown no limits, might technically be able to reach a level higher than anything it ever showed; it does not become evidence of such and cannot be accepted as a legitimate argument.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Nov 4, 2008)

Isn't in a way drawing seemingly unlimited power from some untouchable god to become invulnerable also a no-limits fallacy in itself? 

Especially since some of us are not accepting anything or anyone or even any theoretical combination of characters, to be strong enough to measure up to Cyttorak, so if his his 'power' is beyond what a no-limits fallacy can do, isn't that biased against DBZ?


----------



## Power16 (Nov 4, 2008)

No Cyttorack is just beyond anything in DBZ and he's a character from Marvel if you know anything about it you would know that he's not some untouchable God. Those that know Juggs mention that unless the DBZ cast can get stronger than Cyttorack's magic their not doing jack to Juggs.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 4, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Isn't in a way drawing seemingly unlimited power from some untouchable god to become invulnerable also a no-limits fallacy in itself?


The difference: Saiyans are under the claim that they will ALWAYS get stronger after a fight. That claim cannot be proven, which is why it cannot be used in the argument.

The claim for Juggernaut is that he is invulnerable based magic from Cyttorak. We have accepted that a power greater than Cyttorak can break the magical effect. He is the Avatar of Cyttorak, the "enchantment" or w/e you wanna call it is what describes Juggernaut's power set.

So any claim about hurting Juggernaut then becomes can this person remove Cyttorak's enchantment? or can this person bypass the effects of the enchantment? or is this person so powerful that they can actually break that enchantment?


----------



## masamune1 (Nov 4, 2008)

Why do people keep speaking of Cyttorak as if he is part of this fight?

Juggernaut is on his own. Cytrorrak cannot interfere, and if he could he probably would'nt. Cain is not his favourite person. 

The OP asked if DBZ verse could stop Juggernaut, not kill him (just look at the title- the opening post is just a Juggernaut pic). They can, because Classic Juggernaut can't even kill a crippled bald pensioner, an is regularly defeated by guys far weaker than him. 

DBZ characters are not far weaker- Juggernaut is stronger and more durable, but they are still strong and durable enough to survive his average hits. They can also fly, move at (supersonic?) superhuman speed, and a few can blow up planets. Easily. They also have a couple of psychics- they are not strong, but from what Juggernaut has shown they don't need to be. And getting rid of that helmet tends to be pretty damn easy.

Stopping the Juggernaut is something that plenty of incredibly average Marvel characters have managed to do- *Spiderman* pulled it off. 

If it is supposed to be to the death, then it's a stalemate because there is _nothing_ he can do to them at his typical level of power. And whilst they can't kill him they can still quite casually beat him so it's a stalemate leaning towards DBZ. And no, he would'nt simply outlive them- they have immortals too.


----------



## Enclave (Nov 4, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> The difference: Saiyans are under the claim that they will ALWAYS get stronger after a fight. That claim cannot be proven, which is why it cannot be used in the argument.



It's also been flat out disproven.  Vegeta reached his peak in the Buu Saga, he couldn't get any stronger which is why he got so pissed off when he found out that Goku was still stronger than him.  It's why he allowed Babidi to mind control him, to artificially increase his power so that he could possibly beat Goku (and even then with his artificially powered up self he was below Goku thanks to Goku's SSJ3).

See, the whole claims of Saiyans having infinite potential was said back in the Frieza saga.  See, in the Frieza saga the strongest any Saiyan had ever attained was the first level of SSJ, they never became strong enough to achieve the later 2 levels of SSJ.  Once you take that into account you can notice something.  That something is this, the reason Saiyans and Frieza claimed that Saiyans had infinite potential was simply because no Saiyan ever achieved their true potential, not until Vegeta, Goku and Gohan.

Think about it, no Saiyans ever became even close to as strong as the Goku, Gohan and Vegeta so of course the race APPEARED to have infinite potential since none of them ever came close to achieving their potential so they always appeared to be getting stronger and stronger with no known limit.  Then we see Goku, Gohan and Vegeta, by the Buu saga Goku was getting damn close to his limits and Vegeta had clearly reached his.  Gohan was artificially brought up to his limits by the old Kai (The same Gohan who has been claimed for ages as having the most potential in the series, potential that was seen when he became bar none the strongest unfused fighter in the series by a wide margin).

Now, I've seen some claim that Gohan does have upper limits because of his half human heritage.  However bare this in mind.  If Goku was potentially more powerful than Gohan then the old Kai would have powered Goku up instead of powering up Gohan.  The Old Kai chose Gohan because he had the most potential power and thus had the best chance to defeat Buu.  What does that say about the Saiyans supposed infinite potential when a half breed somehow has more potential than "infinite" (also note, Gohans power even after the Chou power-up was most certainly not infinite in any respect).


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 4, 2008)

masamune1 said:


> Why do people keep speaking of Cyttorak as if he is part of this fight?


He's not, noone has said he's fighting. Its his magic that protects Cain. This magic is that the DBverse has to contend with.





> Juggernaut is on his own. Cytrorrak cannot interfere, and if he could he probably would'nt. Cain is not his favourite person.


Actually, Cyttorak chose Cain. Cain amuses him to no end.





> They can, because Classic Juggernaut can't even kill a crippled bald pensioner, an is regularly defeated by guys far weaker than him.


He hasn't been defeated by Thor, Hulk, Colossus, Thing, Cyclops, Gambit, Rogue, Storm blah blah blah tons of people. He has been "defeated" by psychics after they've removed his helmet. Psychics who knew to take off his helmet.





> Stopping the Juggernaut is something that plenty of incredibly average Marvel characters have managed to do- *Spiderman* pulled it off.


No, he slowed Juggernaut down. Typically Spiderman evades encounters with Juggernaut whenever possible.





> They also have a couple of psychics- they are not strong, but from what Juggernaut has shown they don't need to be. And getting rid of that helmet tends to be pretty damn easy.


He's taken down teams many of which have had psychics. Only the more powerful Psychics in Marvel have actually done it, with the knowledge they have to take his helmet off. Cain has resisted Psychic attacks at one point fighting Xavier off.





> If it is supposed to be to the death, then it's a stalemate because there is _nothing_ he can do to them at his typical level of power. And whilst they can't kill him they can still quite casually beat him so it's a stalemate leaning towards DBZ. And no, he would'nt simply outlive them- they have immortals too.


The OP actually intended for them to have to fight him and kill him. 2nd page about BFR.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Nov 4, 2008)

No DB characters have the physical strength to do anything to Juggs, so ki attacks and hand-to-hand combat are out of the question. Though, I am wondering if Akuman's _Evilbeam_ or Boss Rabbit could do something. I mean, is he invulnerable to an attack that turns him into a carrot? Or an attack that makes the evil in him expand until he blows up?

Thoughts on the subject?


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 4, 2008)

Akuman's Evil Beam would only likely make him stronger and even if Carrot Touch worked.. he may end up being an unstoppable carrot!


----------



## Cerō2 (Nov 5, 2008)

Which versions, because at his strongest know one could really stop him.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 5, 2008)

Check OBD Assumptions.


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 5, 2008)

Emperor Ashtar said:


> Which versions, because at his strongest know one could really stop him.



When no version is given you are allowed to use any version you want.


----------



## MysticMetaKurra (Nov 5, 2008)

^ No you don't. If no version is given you use the CURRENT version. If I remember right, Hulk knocked Juggs on his ass before so I don't see why DBZ characters couldn't, though doubtful with physical power but with chi power, surely they can beat Juggernaut...


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 5, 2008)

MysticMetaKurra said:


> ^ No you don't. If no version is given you use the CURRENT version. If I remember right, Hulk knocked Juggs on his ass before so I don't see why DBZ characters couldn't, though doubtful with physical power but with chi power, surely they can beat Juggernaut...



Lol yeah you do.  You use any version you want when no version is given.  Go actually read the Assumptions Thread and then come back here.

Seriously, people don't even bother to read it anymore before they try and post.  It's stupid.


----------



## MysticMetaKurra (Nov 5, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> Lol yeah you do.  You use any version you want when no version is given.  Go actually read the Assumptions Thread and then come back here.
> 
> Seriously, people don't even bother to read it anymore before they try and post.  It's stupid.


Then I can assume this is the weakest version of Juggs then?

Sorry, I did not read it, that much is true, I apologize, I'm just used to the way I mentioned a while ago.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 5, 2008)

MysticMetaKurra said:


> ^ No you don't. If no version is given you use the CURRENT version. If I remember right, Hulk knocked Juggs on his ass before so I don't see why DBZ characters couldn't, though doubtful with physical power but with chi power, surely they can beat Juggernaut...


Juggernaut beats Hulk most of the time, except the times he's been weakened.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 5, 2008)

Their only hope of stopping him is if they manage to get off his helmet and Babibi takes control of him.

Anyway, he has no way of permanently killing all of them either.


----------



## madcow3005 (Nov 6, 2008)

How strong are Jugg's attacks on average? Yes, he's punched through dimensions, but wasn't that only under special circumstances?


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 6, 2008)

Trion Juggernaut did that - anyway he's class 100, and routinely knocks around people like the Hulk and Thor


----------



## Darklyre (Nov 6, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Their only hope of stopping him is if they manage to get off his helmet and Babibi takes control of him.
> 
> Anyway, he has no way of permanently killing all of them either.



Mind control would only work if it was an actual psychic attack. Babidi apparently uses magic spells to do his controlling, and those would just bounce off of Cain.


----------



## Cerō2 (Nov 6, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Trion Juggernaut did that - anyway he's class 100, and routinely knocks around people like the Hulk and Thor



I thought that was Eighth day juggs.


----------



## CrimsonRex (Nov 6, 2008)

*Spirit Bomb his azz and send it to the sun.
Or Wish him away.
Or Have him absorbed.
Or have everyone shoot a giant Ki attack at him.
Or Send him to the dead zone.
Or throw him in the  time chamber and blow the door up, I doubt this would work though.
*


----------



## Darklyre (Nov 6, 2008)

ThoraxeRMG said:


> *Spirit Bomb his azz and send it to the sun.
> Or Wish him away.
> Or Have him absorbed.
> Or have everyone shoot a giant Ki attack at him.
> ...



Spirit bomb does shit.

The sun does shit.

Wishing him away...where?

Absorbing him first requires getting through his invulnerability and forcefield.

Ki attacks do shit.

The Dead Zone is still part of the DBZverse and can't be considered a BFR.

The Hyperbolic Time Chamber, again, is a part of the DBZverse and isn't considered a BFR.


----------



## Enclave (Nov 6, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> The Dead Zone is still part of the DBZverse and can't be considered a BFR.



It also happens to be non-canon and thus not even a part of the Dragonball verse.


----------



## Ork (Nov 6, 2008)

At thread op: Yes.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 6, 2008)

Absence said:


> At thread op: No.


Yea I agree, their not doing anything.


----------



## Deleted member 45015 (Nov 6, 2008)

If you trapped him in the Time Chamber, perhaps he could be countered...but then...a stronger form of Juggernaut can just punch his way back out and escape.


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 6, 2008)

Absence said:


> At thread op: Yes.



So basically you are saying that you both don't know what you are talking about and haven't read the thread.


----------



## Ork (Nov 6, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Yea I agree, their gonna kick his ass.



Want to play that game eh?


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Nov 6, 2008)

Alright, how then, since you seem to think they can.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 6, 2008)

Absence said:


> Absence said:
> 
> 
> > At thread op: No.
> ...


You only win that game if you actually know what your talking about!~

So exactly how do they "Stop" him? Not slow him down, either.


----------



## Starrk (Nov 6, 2008)

strongarm85 said:
			
		

> The best case scenario for dealing with Juggernaut is use Goku's Instant Transmission to move Juggernaught to another planet and just run away.



That would not only be likely, but terribly funny.


----------



## Tenchi Muyo (Nov 6, 2008)

My God. No they can not stop him. He would destroy the DBZverse and give Cell and Buu such a beating that they will have nightmares.


----------



## Monna (Nov 8, 2008)

Boss Rabbit or Devilman could take him.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> You win the game, I suck. Sorry



Yes, I Agree, is it annoying yet?
Stop him... Umm... Blow up the planet.
Can he fly? In Space?


----------



## Power16 (Nov 8, 2008)

I see everything is just being recycled now, the two posters above haven't read through the whole thread.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

I didn't bother. Blow up the planet. He's stopped. Move him to another planet and blow THAT up if necessary, how? IT.
Wish him to another planet under pretense of having a battle on the ground where the saiyans arent flying to tempt him to agree.
So on and so forth.


----------



## Wesker (Nov 8, 2008)

He has actually walked in space.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 8, 2008)

^ above.





Absence said:


> I didn't bother. Because I have no idea what I'm talking about.


Fixed it for ya.

Go read the thread before you pretend to know what your talking about.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> I Should read the thread and the comic to understand that there were extenuating circumstances



Fixed for ya.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 8, 2008)

Blowing up the Planet doesn't actually stop him. They cannot kill him, you haven't read the thread and are restating things that have already been refuted pages ago.

The point of reading the thread, is so your not saying something thats been refuted so only new points are being discussed and the thread doesn't get to 11 pages of you not caring that you don't have any proof.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Blowing up the Planet doesn't actually stop him. They cannot kill him, you haven't read the thread and are restating things that have already been refuted pages ago.
> 
> The point of reading the thread, is so your not saying something thats been refuted so only new points are being discussed and the thread doesn't get to 11 pages of you not caring that you don't have any proof.



Never said it'd kill him did I?
I said it'd stop him. Oh btw, Can he walk out of a black hole? I mean, he might be able to, but can he?


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 8, 2008)

Yes, a Xorn made a Black Hole which Juggernaut freely entered and escaped.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Yes, a Xorn made a Black Hole which Juggernaut freely entered and escaped.




Haha Xorn, that brings back memories, wasnt he magneto or something? Or he THOUGHT he was magneto... it was a tad convoluted and I never saw the end.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 8, 2008)

Xorn explains that he took the image of Magneto, because he knew mutants would follow him.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Oh? Sneaky bugger.


----------



## Monna (Nov 8, 2008)

Power16 said:


> I see everything is just being recycled now, the two posters above haven't read through the whole thread.


No need to. I just state my opinion of the OP's post and leave. I didn't even have the intention of making another post in this thread.


----------



## MrSmoke (Nov 10, 2008)

LMFAO yes with fucking ease. simply fly 'off' the planet and destroy it with there pinkie off course


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Nov 10, 2008)

So you'd have pretty much all of the powerful DB characters basically commit suicide(aside from Cell and Buu) for a tactic that wouldn't work?

Brilliant!


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

Buu absorbs Guldo... timestop forever. Buu wins?


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 10, 2008)

This calls for Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 10, 2008)

Except for Guldo having been dead years before Buu... and the restrictions for wishing people back to life.. so no.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Except for Guldo having been dead years before Buu... and the restrictions for wishing people back to life.. so no.


This isn't current Dragonball... this is just Dragonball Prime IE: everyone is alive.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 10, 2008)

The Anti-Existence said:


> This calls for Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> So your just making stuff up now? The OP never made that claim and it was clear on Page 2 what the OP intended for the match. Further even if it was your making a dramatic leap to say thats possible.


OBD assumptions? The OP never said anything about who or who was not allowed. Anyone seen in the verse can be used. The only reason you are complaining is because Buu (and DB) will win in the scenario proposed.


----------



## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Buu will not win the scenario. He does not have anything he can do to Juggernaut. The enchantments on him will prevent buu from turning him into candy.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

Trollbane said:


> Buu will not win the scenario. He does not have anything he can do to Juggernaut. The enchantments on him will prevent buu from turning him into candy.


Since win could Juggernaut move in timestop? If you use Current Dragonball then you should use Current Juggernaut and we all know who wins that one...

besides, even without Guldo, Juggernaut cannot kill Buu and likewise Buu cannot kill Juggernaut, so a stalemate.


----------



## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

The op wasn't asking if he could kill dragonball, he was asking if dragonball could kill juggernaut, since you yourself said that buu can not kill juggernaut then that means juggernaut wins according to the terms set out by the op.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> The op wasn't asking if he could kill dragonbal, he was asking if dragonball could kill juggernaut, since you yourself said that buu can not kill juggernaut then that means juggernaut wins according to the terms set out by the op.


OP says if Dragonball can STOP Juggernaut. Buu absorbing Guldo and time stopping stops the Juggernaut. Therefore Dragonball wins. Get it?


----------



## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

No. That will only STALL Juggernaut since the time stop does not last forever. As soon as the timestop is over the Juggernaut will keep going.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> No. That will only STALL Juggernaut since the time stop does not last forever. As soon as the timestop is over the Juggernaut will keep going.


You do not understand.. Guldo's timestop works as long as you hold your breath. Buu does not need to breath and can hold his breath forever... so Juggernaut will be stopped in time forever.. and therefore he is stopped so Dragonball wins. Worst case scenario Buu only stops him for a short while and puts him in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber then he will be stopped forever because he cannot get out of it.


----------



## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

When did it ever say that he could hold his breath forever or didn't need to breath?


----------



## Banhammer (Nov 10, 2008)

You silly bitch, your kis cannot harm me, don't you know who I am? I'm the juggernaut bitch, and I'mm hit'chya with'your own balls!


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

Trollbane said:


> When did it ever say that he could hold his breath forever or didn't need to breath?


Are you serious.....?


----------



## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Scans please.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

Trollbane said:


> Scans please.


Scans of what? Buu being in outerspace, or Buu being completely destroyed? I shouldn't have to explain to you that Buu doesn't need to breath. Unless you think that he is breathing in Outerspace... lol... or breathing when half of his body has been blown off. Do you need scans of what common sense is as well?


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Dude it's been a while since I have read dragonball. How long was he in outer space for?


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## Vynjira (Nov 10, 2008)

bitesize said:


> OBD assumptions? The OP never said anything about who or who was not allowed. Anyone seen in the verse can be used. The only reason you are complaining is because Buu (and DB) will win in the scenario proposed.


He specifically stated Z Warriors on 2nd Page, I'll wait for you to look it up.

No, I'm not complaining because he still wouldn't win that scenario.

You do not know if the Time Freeze ability has any other limitations beyond holding his breath.
Even tho Buu does not need to Breath, the technique may require the process of holding his breath.
Even if both factors met ideally with how you presented your scenaro, it would only stall the fight. Time Stop would merely pause the fight. While time is stopped he would not actively be trying to move.
You make too many assumptions in order to attain a DBZ victory. If you wanna argue OBD assumptions then CIS is on.


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## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> e specifically stated Z Warriors on 2nd Page, I'll wait for you to look it up.


Which means... nothing? 




> Even tho Buu does not need to Breath, the technique may require the process of holding his breath.


Which does... nothing?



> Even if both factors met ideally with how you presented your scenaro, it would only stall the fight. Time Stop would merely pause the fight. While time is stopped he would not actively be trying to move.


Buu would be able to move.. Juggernaut would not... therefore Buu and Dragonball wins because Juggernaut has been stopped? (Though only Buu can move).

If this thread uses "stopped" as "killed" then Juggernaut wins easily. If it means it in the literal sense then Dragonball has many ways to victory.


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## Eleven (Nov 10, 2008)

This shouldn't have lasted 10+ pages. DBZ can't stop him. Someone lock this thread.


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## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> Dude it's been a while since I have read dragonball. How long was he in outer space for?


Why are you even in this thread then? Anyway, yes Buu is capable of being in outerspace without difficulty. But even ignoring that, the fact that Buu can regenerate means that he does not have to breath as 99% of regenerators (or 100% of regenerators that can regenerate from nothing) do not have to breath.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

I remember alot about dragonball just some minor things escape my memory.


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## Vynjira (Nov 10, 2008)

bitesize said:


> Which means... nothing?


It means you've jumped outside the thread and made up your own rules for victory. The OP said it, go make your own version if your not happy.





> Which does... nothing?


Yes, it does. It limits the effect of Time Stop. Further your using a character who is dead. Your making up rules. Make your own thread.





> Buu would be able to move.. Juggernaut would not... therefore Buu and Dragonball wins because Juggernaut has been stopped? (Though only Buu can move).


Here's the thing, he's not trying to move if time is stopped, therefore noone in Z stopped him.





> If this thread uses "stopped" as "killed" then Juggernaut wins easily. If it means it in the literal sense then Dragonball has many ways to victory.


There is no "IF" Read what the OP says on the first 2 pages, it would enlighten you on what he expects for a victory.. or better make your own thread with your own rules since the OP is banned.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Also holding your breath is a physical act which takes energy. Even if he does not need to breath he can only keep the air in his lungs for so long before his lungs give out and he releases the air. Now mind you given his strength it will be a VERY long time before his lungs give out but he does not have unlimited stamina so eventually his lungs will give out.


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## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> Yes, it does. It limits the effect of Time Stop. Further your using a character who is dead. Your making up rules. Make your own thread.


Hey you know who else is dead? Goku, Vegeta, Buu, etc... if you do not allow dead characters then who exactly is fighting in this? Random Civilian A? 



> Here's the thing, he's not trying to move if time is stopped, therefore noone in Z stopped him.


Except he cannot move whether he wants to or not. Therefore Buu wins.



> There is no "IF" Read what the OP says on the first 2 pages, it would enlighten you on what he expects for a victory.. or better make your own thread with your own rules since the OP is banned.


I already addressed that scenario.. so why did you bother to respond? *sigh*



> Also holding your breath is a physical act which takes energy. Even if he does not need to breath he can only keep the air in his lungs for so long before his lungs give out and he releases the air. Now mind you given his strength it will be a VERY long time before his lungs give out but he does not have unlimited stamina so eventually his lungs will give out.


Read what you said then realize that Buu can survive without lungs then read it again.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

bitesize said:


> Read what you said then realize that Buu can survive without lungs then read it again.


If he does not have lungs then he can not hold his breath. If he can not hold his breath then he can not use Guldo's time stop ability since the time stop can only last as long as the person holds his breath. 





bitesize said:


> You do not understand.. Guldo's timestop works as long as you hold your breath.


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## Vynjira (Nov 10, 2008)

bitesize said:


> Hey you know who else is dead? Goku, Vegeta, Buu, etc... if you do not allow dead characters then who exactly is fighting in this? Random Civilian A?


2 things wrong with that, first certain characters are alive in the last episode. Second Guldo is Dead BEFORE Buu is walking around. So you pick one or the other not both.





> Except he cannot move whether he wants to or not. Therefore Buu wins.


He can't WANT to... so your point is invalid. He won't "want" to until time starts again.





> I already addressed that scenario.. so why did you bother to respond? *sigh*


You didn't address it with a valid response.





> Read what you said then realize that Buu can survive without lungs then read it again.


You don't know what the limitations for the technique are beyond holding his breath.


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## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> If he does not have lungs then he can not hold his breath. If he can not hold his breath then he can not use Guldo's time stop ability since the time stop can only last as long as the person holds his breath.


Except he does have lungs except he does not need him? Buu is a humanoid. He doesn't actually need lungs to live and he can hold his breath forever due to his regeneration. Are you seriously arguing this? 



> 2 things wrong with that, first certain characters are alive in the last episode. Second Guldo is Dead BEFORE Buu is walking around. So you pick one or the other not both.


Where is it stated that he is using the last episode? Guldo is in Dragonball Z... and maybe you should go read the OBD Assumptions Thread... 



> He can't WANT to... so your point is invalid. He won't "want" to until time starts again.


True or false, if time is stopped Juggernaut will be stopped? It doesn't even matter if he wants to or not. 



> You didn't address it with a valid response.





> If this thread uses "stopped" as "killed" then Juggernaut wins easily


Maybe you should read rather than arguing for the sake of doing such? 



> You don't know what the limitations for the technique are beyond holding his breath.


The limitations is that you can't hold your breath forever (In Guldo's case).. but Buu can.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

He can't hold his breath forever because holding your breath takes energy. He would have to have unlimited energy to hold his breath forever. Currently he can only hold his breath for a very very very long time. But that is still not forever. I am not arguing that he does not need to breath I am arguing that he can not hold his breath indefinitely.


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## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> He can't hold his breath forever because holding your breath takes energy.


Do you really think the reason you can't hold your breath forever is because of a lack of energy? You cannot be serious. I am convinced that you are joking and you really do not care. Surely you cannot believe such nonsense.

Seriously, hold your breath right now, is it the lack of energy that makes you unable to hold it longer? Really now... where are you getting this stuff?


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Holding your breath takes minimal energy so minimal that it wouldn't stress out your lungs until after you pass out. However if you do not need air then the stress of keeping your lungs expanded would eventually force you to release the air regardless if you need to breath. It's the same reason you can not keep your arm muscle flexed indefinitely.


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## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

> However if you do not need air then the stress of keeping your lungs expanded would eventually force you to release the air regardless if you need to breath. It's the same reason you can not keep your arm muscle indefinitely.


Yeah... cite that please. I already know you are just making stuff up, but I would love to see what you can come up with.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Why do I need to cite it? It is common logic about the human body.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Alright then here you go 
Here are some parts about how the muscles expand. 





> As you breathe in, your diaphragm contracts and flattens out. This allows it to move down, so your lungs have more room to grow larger as they fill up with air. "Move over, diaphragm, I'm filling up!" is what your lungs would say. And the diaphragm isn't the only part that gives your lungs the room they need. Your rib muscles also lift the ribs up and outward to give the lungs more space.


 Like I said it's the same concept as why you can not keep your arm muscle flexed indefinitely.
Here is another source.  


> The actual job of breathing is done mainly by the diaphragm, the sheet of muscles between the chest and abdomen. These muscles contract when we breathe in, expanding the lungs and drawing in air. We breathe out simply by relaxing the diaphragm; the lungs deflate like balloons.


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## Kind of a big deal (Nov 10, 2008)

I thought of something else. When you're in the vacuum of space, unless you have some sort of propulsion, you can't actually move. If they just make him relocate into space with the dragonballs he would be stuck and would be unable to move. Juggernaut might be able to throw some clothing but he wouldn't even know which way to throw it to be propelled in the right direction and it wouldn't really make him move very fast no matter how hard he throws it.

So that's pretty much the definition of 'stopping' someone. So can the DBZ verse stop him? Yes they can.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

That argument was already brought up. The Juggernaut has walked in space before.


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## Kind of a big deal (Nov 10, 2008)

Lolwut walking in space.. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'll take your word for it. But people dis DBZ for having inconsistent physics, but at least they can generate Ki to move around in space, that makes some sense at least. Just plain walking is so impossible no matter how strong you are, so that's just poor writing.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

I think they tried to explain it by Cyttorak's enchantment enabling him to do ridiculous crap like that. It is Marvel after all. I will agree that it is kind of silly to dis DB physics and then not dis some of the stuff that happens in Marvel.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Alright I am logging off until late tonight or sometime tomorrow afternoon, so don't expect any replies until then.


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## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

Trollbane said:


> Alright then here you go
> Here are some parts about how the muscles expand.  Like I said it's the same concept as why you can not keep your arm muscle flexed indefinitely.
> Here is another source.


Buu doesn't have a diaphragm? Are you freaking serious?


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Wait are you saying that Buu doesn't have a diaphragm? Or do you think that I am saying that he doesn't have a diaphragm?


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## Vynjira (Nov 10, 2008)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Lolwut walking in space.. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'll take your word for it. But people dis DBZ for having inconsistent physics, but at least they can generate Ki to move around in space, that makes some sense at least. Just plain walking is so impossible no matter how strong you are, so that's just poor writing.


Its not his strength, He is an irresistible force. Its one of his powers aside from invulnerability and strength, he wills himself in a direction and no force can stop him from going in that direction.


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## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Well no force below cyttorak that is.


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## Kind of a big deal (Nov 10, 2008)

Buu doesn't have an anything, he's made of Buu. I know it sounds weird. He's a more a magical being than a physical one.

But he does have breath even if he doesn't need to breathe, Fat Buu blew away a city, after all.


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## Vynjira (Nov 10, 2008)

bitesize said:


> Except he does have lungs except he does not need him? Buu is a humanoid. He doesn't actually need lungs to live and he can hold his breath forever due to his regeneration. Are you seriously arguing this?


I never said he did, My point was the requirement may be that he has lungs and you don't know that. So your making up rules beyond what was shown.





> Where is it stated that he is using the last episode? Guldo is in Dragonball Z... and maybe you should go read the OBD Assumptions Thread...


Maby you should read the entire thread he says Z Warriors. Further, I'll quote him 





Immortal Soldier said:


> Can juggernautdie by old age? If that is the case, the Z warriors win by teleporting him far away and out living him. technically!


Wait what oh yea, the victory is by killing Juggernaut. Thats his meaning of "Stop". This is the guy who made the thread so toss your general OBD assumptions out as they only apply to conditions that weren't stated by the OP.





> True or false, if time is stopped Juggernaut will be stopped? It doesn't even matter if he wants to or not.


False, the flow of time has stopped not Juggernaut.





> Maybe you should read rather than arguing for the sake of doing such?


Maby you should stop trolling.





> The limitations is that you can't hold your breath forever (In Guldo's case).. but Buu can.


This is a no-limits fallacy, in the sense that Guldo could only hold it as long as he could hold his breath which was a short period of time.. We do not know that if he could hold his breath forever if time would stay frozen forever. So it can't be used as an argument.





Kind of a big deal said:


> Buu doesn't have an anything, he's made of Buu. I know it sounds weird. He's a more a magical being than a physical one.
> 
> But he does have breath even if he doesn't need to breathe, Fat Buu blew away a city, after all.


Yes but we don't know the mechanics of Guldo's time stop beyond him holding his breath for a short period of time. Further its pointless the OP intends for the Z Warriors to Kill Juggernaut. Its the bottom of 2nd page which noone is reading...


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 10, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> I think you've nailed why GT sucked.



The music? Yeah I didn't like it that much either.
I did like Gogeta. Omega Shenron looked kinda weird though.


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## Vynjira (Nov 10, 2008)

Is there a reason Shenron has Piccolo's voice?


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 10, 2008)

They couldn't get another VA for the role?


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## bitesize (Nov 11, 2008)

> False, the flow of time has stopped not Juggernaut.


Scans of Juggernaut moving even with time is stopped?

Also, I am not bothering with the rest of your post because I already said that Dragonball Z verse would lose if they had to kill the Juggernaut, and you are just aruging for the sake of such. Such an argumentative person sadly.


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## Vynjira (Nov 11, 2008)

bitesize said:


> Scans of Juggernaut moving even with time is stopped?


*A body which does not move, is to have constant (time-invariant) position.* Time is how motion is measured. Time needs to flow in order for you to say something has stopped. If time is flowing Juggernaut will be moving.





> Also, I am not bothering with the rest of your post because I already said that Dragonball Z verse would lose if they had to kill the Juggernaut,


Which they have to according to the OP. 2nd page.. I quoted him.





> and you are just aruging for the sake of such. Such an argumentative person sadly.


So your ignoring the points by attacking my reason for arguing. That does not make my points invalid. Which is why Endless Mike, and many other bothered to argue with Jplaya.. we still addressed his points even tho he was trolling.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 11, 2008)

Can't they just BFR him?
I'm sure it's been mentioned before but I'm not reading througha ll this.


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## Vynjira (Nov 11, 2008)

The Anti-Existence said:


> Can't they just BFR him?
> I'm sure it's been mentioned before but I'm not reading througha ll this.


By OP near bottom of 2nd Page.





Immortal Soldier said:


> Can juggernautdie by old age? If that is the case, the Z warriors win by teleporting him far away and out living him. technically!


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 11, 2008)

Fair enough then.
Well this was fun.
Who's next? I suggest War Hulk.


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## Vynjira (Nov 11, 2008)

1-Up with Rune Thor >.>';


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## bitesize (Nov 12, 2008)

> A body which does not move, is to have constant (time-invariant) position. Time is how motion is measured. Time needs to flow in order for you to say something has stopped. If time is flowing Juggernaut will be moving.


So you do not have any scans? If time is stopped, you are stopped? Yes or no? It should be obvious. Buu would be moving and Juggernaut would not, because he is stopped for that he can not move even if he wanted to. But you said that he is not even affected by time manipulation.. and I want scans, so show them?




> So your ignoring the points by attacking my reason for arguing. That does not make my points invalid. Which is why Endless Mike, and many other bothered to argue with Jplaya.. we still addressed his points even tho he was trolling.


When someone agrees with you and you keep on aruging with them even though they already agreed with you, what is that? We both know what it is.. and stop doing it.


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## Amatsu (Nov 12, 2008)

personally I'd think it would be impossible for the DBZverse to even try and stop Juggernaut. I don't really see anything they'd try working.


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## Vynjira (Nov 12, 2008)

bitesize said:


> So you do not have any scans?


I never claimed what your asking scans for.





> If time is stopped, you are stopped? Yes or no?


No, A body which does not move, is to have constant (time-invariant) position. Meaning if time isn't flowing you haven't stopped him.





> It should be obvious. Buu would be moving and Juggernaut would not, because he is stopped for that he can not move even if he wanted to.


Your implying Juggernaut can think while time is frozen.





> But you said that he is not even affected by time manipulation.. and I want scans, so show them?


I never claimed he can't. I said that it doesn't stop him, because to stop him would mean he would not be moving while time is flowing. Since time is not flowing he is not stopped.

To which you still can't prove if Buu would be able to use the time stop or that it would last any longer than 5 mins.


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## bitesize (Nov 12, 2008)

> No, A body which does not move, is to have constant (time-invariant) position. Meaning if time isn't flowing you haven't stopped him.


So if its not stopped, then it is moving? If Buu stops time, he is moving yes, and the Juggernaut is incapable of moving, yes?



> To which you still can't prove if Buu would be able to use the time stop or that it would last any longer than 5 mins.


A normal human can hold his or her breath for more than 5 minutes. I shouldn't have to say anymore....



> Your implying Juggernaut can think while time is frozen.


Didn't you say he is unaffected by time manipulation?

Dunno why you are bothering since I already said I agreed with you. Oh well, argumentative people lol.


LOL @ you negging me. Though, not surprising coming your kind.


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## Vynjira (Nov 13, 2008)

bitesize said:


> So if its not stopped, then it is moving?


Motion and lack of Motion require time to be flowing. You cannot stop someone by freezing time. I've explained it and you can look it up.





> A normal human can hold his or her breath for more than 5 minutes. I shouldn't have to say anymore....


Yet Guldo never held his breath for that long.. I shouldn't have to tell you that saying because someone can hold their breath longer time will be stopped longer is a no-limits fallacy. One your bent on arguing...





> Didn't you say he is unaffected by time manipulation?


Noone claimed that your making shit up.





> Dunno why you are bothering since I already said I agreed with you. Oh well, argumentative people lol.


*stares at your post* Sure 


> LOL @ you negging me.


..because your trolling.. 

If you were intent on proving Time Freeze stops Juggernaut it wouldn't matter if Buu did it or Guldo.. Yet you insist on using Buu because your claim he can do it forever. Which is a no-limits fallacy, to which your claiming Time Freeze will stop Juggernaut, which be the very definition requires time to be flowing. Freezing it negates the action of stopping Juggernaut.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 13, 2008)

Wait a minute, are you people arguing some kind of ridiculous semantics - based loophole?

That's kind of an indication that you've already lost when you resort to that kind of thing.


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## Kind of a big deal (Nov 14, 2008)

Anyways I still say Buu can absorb Juggernaut even if he is protected by this other God. Back in the day when Buu was first created he had already absorbed several elder gods (who are comparatively not quite omnipotent of course but still gods with some serious magical feats such as effortlessly creating material out of seemingly nothing), and later during DBZ he absorbed people with vastly higher power levels than his and he even absorbed Fat Buu. 
And it never seemed to be more difficult or harder to absorb anyone, even on Fat Buu who is made of at least equally potent magic as skinny Buu, it worked just as effortlessly. So I think his absorbing power has a lot more potency to it than given credit for. And let's not forget he turned the strongest character in the series effortlessly into a candy. He didn't even have to gather power for it. So contrary to populair belief the strongest thing about DBZ could be the magic of the Kaio's, of Babidi and of Buu, and not the physical fighting element with Ki.

Again I suppose it'll be called a no-limits falacy because there's no known upper limit to his absorbing power, but you know what I don't care, that has always been the whole theme of DBZ to begin with. That's also I suppose why DBZ lends itself so badly for these types of topics, putting some sort of limit to it, feels out of character for DBZ.


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## WarriorS (Nov 14, 2008)

I don't think Buu's absorbing power would work on Juggernaut. He's got his own shield/forcefield that protects him, along with other protections which allow for him to be completely stripped of his flesh to the bone and not die, among other things. If he tried to absorb him, at worst he'd probably be protected ala Vegito.

And on-topic, no, I don't think anyone in DBZ could stop him if he didn't want to be stopped.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 15, 2008)

LOL@comparing the Kaioshins to Cyttorak


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## Dexion (Nov 21, 2008)

Goku as a Super Sayin(1) was able to effortlessly swing around 40 tons of weight on his limbs, I don't think Juggs can just easily knock his skull in if he were SS3. Goku never once tried to destroy a planet but Vegeta was able to do this as a low level in the Saiyan saga, meanwhile Goku powers up in SS3 and causes earthquakes all over the globe and his power is felt in another galaxy. 

Buu's magic is probably stronger, his voice alone was able to start ripping dimensions in half while Vegeto was kicking his ass.

If Super Vegeto is able to tear Super Buu apart as a chocolate candy then I doubt he would have trouble getting through Jugg's barrier, he even put up a barrier himself when Buu absorbed him so he wouldn't become part of Buu.

All in all DB buu saga power is seriously warped its hard to tell who can do what. A stalemate may be all thats left, someone in DBverse can just wind juggs up like a fan and toss him out of the galaxy though.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

In conclusion, Dexion has no idea who Juggs is. The one who, more often than not, overpowers the Hulk.


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## Dexion (Nov 21, 2008)

I know exactly who Juggs is, his full power is demonstrated in the comics the Z fighters powers aren't.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Nov 21, 2008)

We've seen the limits for all the Z fighters, the only one we haven't was Vegito. And Vegeta never busted a planet in the manga, so stop using anime filler.

Oh, and :rofl @ Super Vegito getting through Jugg's barrier. That's a good one.


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## Dexion (Nov 21, 2008)

^What I meant to say Vegeta could have busted a planet very early in the manga. Like I said before the Buu saga's power level's are completely warped beyond comprehension.

I think Super Buu(Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan absorbed) and Juggernaut would be able to fight for eternity so in the end its a stalemate. Neither can harm each other. (juggernaut is too slow) If buu gets hit he just turns into clay and reforms.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 21, 2008)

Dexion said:


> Goku as a Super Sayin(1) was able to effortlessly swing around 40 tons of weight on his limbs, I don't think Juggs can just easily knock his skull in if he were SS3.



Feat <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Juggernaut's strength + unknown multiplier =/= Juggernaut's strength


> Goku never once tried to destroy a planet but Vegeta was able to do this as a low level in the Saiyan saga



Filler



> , meanwhile Goku powers up in SS3 and causes earthquakes all over the globe



Insignificant



> and his power is felt in another galaxy.



Unquantifiable



> Buu's magic is probably stronger, his voice alone was able to start ripping dimensions in half while Vegeto was kicking his ass.



Filler



> If Super Vegeto is able to tear Super Buu apart as a chocolate candy then I doubt he would have trouble getting through Jugg's barrier, he even put up a barrier himself when Buu absorbed him so he wouldn't become part of Buu.



Failure comparison since Juggernaut's forcefield has tanked cosmic attacs and Buu's body is soft and easy to puncture (a random guy with a machinegun managed to poke holes in him)



> All in all DB buu saga power is seriously warped its hard to tell who can do what. A stalemate may be all thats left, someone in DBverse can just wind juggs up like a fan and toss him out of the galaxy though.



Except no one in DBZ has strength anywhere near that level



> ^What I meant to say Vegeta could have busted a planet very early in the manga.



According to a hyperbole.



> Like I said before the Buu saga's power level's are completely warped beyond comprehension.
> 
> I think Super Buu(Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan absorbed) and Juggernaut would be able to fight for eternity so in the end its a stalemate. Neither can harm each other. (juggernaut is too slow) If buu gets hit he just turns into clay and reforms.



Possibly


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## Vynjira (Nov 21, 2008)

Is there an assumption being made that Buu is immortal? I mean he was created by Bibidi and as far as I know it was never implied that Buu lives forever. Further Buu was weakened by physical attacks.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 21, 2008)

Well he loses ki if he gets knocked around a lot, but I don't see why he would be susceptible to old age or anything.


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## Vynjira (Nov 21, 2008)

Magical effects have been known to weaken with time. Others persist, Buu was sealed away if he can be weakened by physical strain that suggests limits.


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