# CS2 healthy Kimimaro vs Asuma



## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

distance: 10m
knowledge: full knowledge
mind set: kill the enemy 

Just wanting to know how powerful do the people think Kimimaro is.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

bone forest GG. Do a poll. ill be proven wrong again. but thats my opinion. bone forest GG. 

and no proof hien can cut kimimaro or that asuma long range techniques would be any more effective than gaara sand. 

i mean we already have cs2 wing tanking katon and c2 from deidara.  you yourself said kimimaro can control his cs2 on hebi sasuke level. 

Cs2 without any additions already has tanking feats. when you add kimimaro bones into the equation. No reason at all asuma should be able to hurt him. 

but of course all would disagree, afterall kimi died in part 1 hence he is fodder.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> bone forest GG. Do a poll. ill be proven wrong again. but thats my opinion. bone forest GG.



There's no need for a poll, whoever has an opinion based on proofs he can post his opinion and argue here. If someone only has to say +1, or does not argue his opinion, for me his opinion is as good as nothing.

Btw, Kimimaro's bone forest isn't that fast and ninjas can just climb  the bones as they climb walls.



Icegaze said:


> and no proof hien can cut kimimaro or that asuma long range techniques would be any more effective than gaara sand.



Neither is a proof of a Bijuu dama being able to injure him, but people with common sense will agree that a Bijuu dama atomizes him  



Icegaze said:


> i mean we already have cs2 wing tanking katon and c2 from deidara.  you yourself said kimimaro can control his cs2 on hebi sasuke level.



That was sarcasm 
Kimimaro is to Hebi Sasuke what Juugo is to Raikage.



Icegaze said:


> Cs2 without any additions already has tanking feats. when you add kimimaro bones into the equation. No reason at all asuma should be able to hurt him.
> 
> but of course all would disagree, afterall kimi died in part 1 hence he is fodder.



Kimimaro isn't a fodder, he is a named character that couldn't defeat some 11, 12 and 13 years old boys.

Also CS2 tanking feats include being crushed by Chouji's punch, being trapped by Shikamaru's shadow, being injured by a simple explosive tag of Kiba, etc.

In other words the level of the shinobi itself affects the CS2. Kimimaro only has feats of tanking Gaara's sand.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> There's no need for a poll, whoever has an opinion based on proofs he can post his opinion and argue here. If someone only has to say +1, or does not argue his opinion, for me his opinion is as good as nothing.
> 
> Btw, Kimimaro's bone forest isn't that fast and ninjas can just climb  the bones as they climb walls.
> 
> ...



i never claimed bone forest was fast. But i do like what you said about climbing the bones like they do walls. Never thought of that. What happens though when kimimaro comes out from that bone and impales them??? Are we forgetting he can do that without a moments notice? 

a bijuudama atomizes everyone, no one needs proof of such. never argued to the contrary. 

Though why bring up bijuudama thats far far far far far above anything asuma has. and i mean far 

 ok i get you, was gonna say thats a dramatic change of stance. granted i know hebi sasuke wins but thats because he got the tools to win. Hebi can also troll Mei despite her kage status 

I agree the level of cs2 affects the seal itself, am glad you brought that up. kimimaro level of control with it was on par with hebi sasuke. Care to say am lying?? juugo would know and he brought it up


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> i never claimed bone forest was fast. But i do like what you said about climbing the bones like they do walls. Never thought of that. What happens though when kimimaro comes out from that bone and impales them??? Are we forgetting he can do that without a moments notice?



That Kimimaro isn't fast enough and Asuma cuts his head.



Icegaze said:


> a bijuudama atomizes everyone, no one needs proof of such. never argued to the contrary.
> 
> Though why bring up bijuudama thats far far far far far above anything asuma has. and i mean far



And what Asuma has if way more powerful than what a random samurai or 11 years old Gaara had. More concentrated, but more powerful.



Icegaze said:


> ok i get you, was gonna say thats a dramatic change of stance. granted i know hebi sasuke wins but thats because he got the tools to win. Hebi can also troll Mei despite her kage status



No, her acid will work still fine and kill Sasuke.



Icegaze said:


> I agree the level of cs2 affects the seal itself, am glad you brought that up. kimimaro level of control with it was on par with hebi sasuke. Care to say am lying?? juugo would know and he brought it up



No, Juugo said that Sasuke was the first one since Kimimaro to have partial transformations, nothing was stated about the over all level of the CS2.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 12, 2013)

kimi should win imo

difficulty depends on how fast the match escalates but kimi is kage level in CS2 & could last all day in base vs asuma, sickness aside....theyre both fast; asuma stronger, kimi more finesse...


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## katanalauncher (Aug 12, 2013)

Healthy Kimi could probably beat Asuma in base or at most. CS1


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> That Kimimaro isn't fast enough and Asuma cuts his head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so if they both can use partial transformation which requires perfect control of the curse seal and both their curse seals are as strong or nearly. How come kimimaro cursed seal is suddenly so inferior? is it because kimi is a part 1 character

again you have no proof asuma hien is sharper than what the samurai have. futton was said to be sharper than raiton yet kisame who had experienced both hien and killer bee *pencil*
said killer bee's was sharper. 

Sasuke raiton collided with mifune and mifune didnt break. Again what actual proof is there that asuma can actually cut his head even if his attack lands??

lets not forget kimimaro can simply spin and that in itself is an attack against asuma. Any bones would pierce him 

do you have any proof that asuma is faster than 1st gate rock lee?? the feats dont suggest that 

gaara as a genin spent his time killing jounin. he passed the 2nd stage of the chunin exam without a scratch in record time. Even jounin were saying they coudlnt do that. Yet rock lee bounced him around. 

so no asuma cannot just blitz and cut kimimaro head off. for god sake's kimi is faster than hidan. By a tier mind you. Are you now going to say Db stats dont matter cuz its not agreeing with you. 

And no gai and lee havign 5 in speed dont make them equals so dont stupidly ask me that


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## bleakwinter (Aug 12, 2013)

*Kimimaro wins*

Kimimaro is an overall more impressive fighter in the speed and Taijutsu department. His Taijutsu style exhibits far more flexibility (1) than Asuma's and Kimimaro's movement speed feats are more substantial than Asuma's as well. Kimimaro's unorthodox taijutsu is also quite unpredictable, as it was able to injure even Drunken Lee (2).I do not forsee Asuma continually being able to avoid Kimimaro's bone protrusions which can sprout anywhere from his body, especially given the fact that he was scratched by a a simple scythe attack. Asuma's Ninjutsu is only marginally impressive, as his Katon only inflicted light subcutaneous burns (Placing this into perspective, Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai involves his own bones regularly jabbing through his skin, so it isn't fathomable that such minor damage would impede him). Similarly, even Ino was swift enough to sprint up to Choji and move him out of Asuma's Fuuton path. Lastly, Asuma has no logical counter to Sawarabi no Mai due to the shear area it can cover and certainly cannot mow them all down as Itachi did given the size of his extended trench knives in comparison to the Susanoo blade.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> so if they both can use partial transformation which requires perfect control of the curse seal and both their curse seals are as strong or nearly. How come kimimaro cursed seal is suddenly so inferior? is it because kimi is a part 1 character



When was said that perfect control was needed to do the partial transformations?
The cursed seal is an imperfect sage mode. The stats on the sage mode depend on the base of the character, as sage mode twice the energy level and activates the user's body potential.



Icegaze said:


> again you have no proof asuma hien is sharper than what the samurai have. futton was said to be sharper than raiton yet kisame who had experienced both hien and killer bee *pencil*
> said killer bee's was sharper.



You have no proofs of Kimimaro being durable enough to tank Asuma's hien 

Asuma's hien is above fodder samurai's sword, that's common sense.



Icegaze said:


> Sasuke raiton collided with mifune and mifune didnt break. Again what actual proof is there that asuma can actually cut his head even if his attack lands??



And what's the proof of Kimimaro being able to tank Mifune's attack?



Icegaze said:


> lets not forget kimimaro can simply spin and that in itself is an attack against asuma. Any bones would pierce him



And Asuma can dodge as he is faster 



Icegaze said:


> do you have any proof that asuma is faster than 1st gate rock lee?? the feats dont suggest that



I do have. Asuma is faster than the Kurenai that blitzed Neji, the same Neji that not only reacted but fodderized Lee.



Icegaze said:


> gaara as a genin spent his time killing jounin. he passed the 2nd stage of the chunin exam without a scratch in record time. Even jounin were saying they coudlnt do that. Yet rock lee bounced him around.



Gaara as Ichibi's jinchuuriki killed Jounins. Ichibi is obviously above jounin level. Gaara wasn't.



Icegaze said:


> so no asuma cannot just blitz and cut kimimaro head off. for god sake's kimi is faster than hidan. By a tier mind you. Are you now going to say Db stats dont matter cuz its not agreeing with you.



Kimi isn't Akatsuki level, stop day dreaming.

lol databooks, does Hidan has the same amount of chakra as Naruto, Kisame, the Rikage, and Gai, they all have 5 in stamina, so based on your logic their chakra level is identical.



Icegaze said:


> And no gai and lee havign 5 in speed dont make them equals so dont stupidly ask me that



So the databook is absolute in what you like and has to be interpreted in what you don't believe


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## Punished Pathos (Aug 12, 2013)

Sick Kimimaro is stronger than Asuma 

Kabuto's words.

"They have no one that they can send against Kimimaro"


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Sick Kimimaro is stronger than Asuma
> 
> Kabuto's words.
> 
> "They have no one that they can send against Kimimaro"



Based on that neither was Tsunade, Kakashi, Gai, Jiraiya, etc.


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## Veracity (Aug 12, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Sick Kimimaro is stronger than Asuma
> 
> Kabuto's words.
> 
> "They have no one that they can send against Kimimaro"



Itachi and Kisame are weaker then Jirayia...


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## Language of Life (Aug 12, 2013)

Kimimaro wins this one. 

I really don't think it would be a stretch to say that Asuma's wind enhanced Hien fares better against Kimi's bone sword than those samurai, but Asuma does not really have a decisive power blow to get past his bone masks and put kimi down for good.

Not to mention Kimi is more skilled in Taijutsu, has long range finger bullets, and if he really thinks he needs it he can go ahead and shred Asuma with bone forest. 

Kimi takes this rather handily.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Healthy Kimimaro's bones in base were strong enough to resist samurai chakra swords. While I am sure Asuma's Hien is stronger, with full knowledge, Kimimaro won't even waste time with that and simply use Juin Ni, at which point his bones will be strong enough to resist Hien. They are roughly equivalent in speed given they share a DB 4.5, although Asuma will have a slight edge since Juin Ni slows Kimimaro down, but Kimimaro has a 5 in taijutsu while Asuma has a 4.5 and at close range, taijutsu matters more. Plus, while Asuma has extendable Hien, the spinal cord whip gives Kimimaro the range advantage. And if Asuma tries to withdraw to use Katon or Fuuton from range, he is going to get taken out by Sawarabi no Mai. 

Kimimaro wins.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Asuma has long range attacks that will injure Kimimaro and no, his taijutsu isn't better than Asuma's. His taijutsu can only be compared to genin Lee's.


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## Olympian (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> again you have no proof asuma hien is sharper than what the samurai have. futton was said to be sharper than raiton yet kisame who had experienced both hien and killer bee *pencil*
> said killer bee's was sharper.



And yet, Asuma`s Hien went much further against a tree (and a boulder behind) with the man claiming he held back his whole strength with the throw. Kisame made a general claim about Futtun, not an especific one.

Anyhow, close match in mind, but i think whereas Kimimaro got more finesse in Tai, Asuma may be faster and have the sharpest tools in the shed to edge it out.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Asuma has long range attacks that will injure Kimimaro and no, his taijutsu isn't better than Asuma's. His taijutsu can only be compared to genin Lee's.



Genin Lee has a 4.5 in taijutsu (same score as Asuma) even without drunken fist, and yet until he used that, Kimimaro had the advantage in straight taijutsu, so that's quite a compliment. And with drunken fist, he knocked out Gai. Who was not trying to hurt Lee and was quite surprised, but Gai was so impressed that he expressed serious concern about how anyone could stop Lee to even Tsunade. And none of Asuma's long range attacks have destructive feats comparable to SRA Gaara's long range attacks. Plus, his long range attacks aren't hard to dodge.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Genin Lee has a 4.5 in taijutsu (same score as Asuma) even without drunken fist, and yet until he used that, Kimimaro had the advantage in straight taijutsu, so that's quite a compliment. And with drunken fist, he knocked out Gai. Who was not trying to hurt Lee and was quite surprised, but Gai was so impressed that he expressed serious concern about how anyone could stop Lee to even Tsunade. And none of Asuma's long range attacks have destructive feats comparable to SRA Gaara's long range attacks. Plus, his long range attacks aren't hard to dodge.



Genin Lee has a 5 in speed, the same as Gai. 

Databooks mean nothing.

Gaara had more spectacular or bigger attacks, but an attack being smaller doesn't mean that is weaker, Raikage's hell bringer is more powerful but less impressive than Genin Gaara's attacks.

The same, but to lower extent, can be said about Asuma's attacks. Asuma destroyed one of Kakuzu's mask with a single fuuton attack.

And Asuma long range fuuton is faster than Gaara's sand attacks.


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## Olympian (Aug 12, 2013)

Databooks aside, i don`t think anywhere in part I, Kishi portraited the rookies as above the Jounin in the speed or ninjutsu category. The issue with Drunken Lee (that i recall reading, but i can be wholy wrong on this) was his unpredictability.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Genin Lee has a 5 in speed, the same as Gai.
> 
> Databooks mean nothing.



DB is as much Kishi's intent as the manga. Oh, and genin Lee had a 4 in speed in the DB so you are dead wrong.


> Gaara had more spectacular or bigger attacks, but an attack being smaller doesn't mean that is weaker, Raikage's hell bringer is more powerful but less impressive than Genin Gaara's attacks.



A simple sand coffin/funeral could implode a human body. Kimimaro resisted it with CSI while sick. He then withstood many tons of sand being dropped upon him and then a sand funeral scaled up to that size with CS2 without any issue at all. 


> The same, but to lower extent, can be said about Asuma's attacks. Asuma destroyed one of Kakuzu's mask with a single fuuton attack.



Kakuzu's masks have never withstood anything like SRA Gaara's attacks so how is that impressive?


> And Asuma long range fuuton is faster than Gaara's sand attacks



Despite Ino and Shikamaru both dodging it? Seriously, you keep saying Asuma is faster, better taijutsu, stronger and faster attacks, but you have no measure to say that with. You just say it. Asuma's ranged attacks were never hyped as that great. Hien is his strongest attack.


Olympian said:


> Databooks aside, i don`t think anywhere in part I, Kishi portraited the rookies as above the Jounin in the speed or ninjutsu category. The issue with Drunken Lee (that i recall reading, but i can be wholy wrong on this) was his unpredictability.



They weren't better in speed or ninjutsu. Lee was fastest in base speed and he was no faster than Kurenai according to the databook, who was the slowest of the Jounin sensei. But unpredictability is a part of taijutsu. I mean, it's fairly elemental to hand to hand combat that you want to be as unpredictable as possible.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> DB is as much Kishi's intent as the manga. Oh, and genin Lee had a 4 in speed in the DB so you are dead wrong.



False, and False. DB is only sign by Kishimoto, It's made by editors. And also Lee had a 5 in speed in the last databook of the first part 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> A simple sand coffin/funeral could implode a human body. Kimimaro resisted it with CSI while sick. He then withstood many tons of sand being dropped upon him and then a sand funeral scaled up to that size with CS2 without any issue at all.



And? How can you compare that to a A level fuuton jutsu?



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Kakuzu's masks have never withstood anything like SRA Gaara's attacks so how is that impressive?



Giant Chouji's palms.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Despite Ino and Shikamaru both dodging it? Seriously, you keep saying Asuma is faster, better taijutsu, stronger and faster attacks, but you have no measure to say that with. You just say it. Asuma's ranged attacks were never hyped as that great. Hien is his strongest attack.



How do you compare post time skip Shikamaru with Kimimaro?

Asuma in general was hyped to be above Kimimaro


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> False, and False. DB is only sign by Kishimoto, It's made by editors. And also Lee had a 5 in speed in the last databook of the first part



Where do you get the idea that Kishi has no input? None at all? Link proof.

And you are so very wrong about Lee: it goes to show that you research none of your claims.



His DB stats are there. He hadn't even reached a 5 in speed by the third DB, which was set in Part II. 


> And? How can you compare that to a A level fuuton jutsu?



That Fuuton is unranked because there is no DB entry for it yet. It doesn't look A ranked. In any case, that massive wave of sand that Gaara used? Yondaime Kazekage didn't even think it was possible for anyone but Shukaku, a Bijuu, to use it. 


> Giant Chouji's palms.



Which couldn't even take out Shurado, which was demolished by a single Rasengan. 


> How do you compare post time skip Shikamaru with Kimimaro?



Shikamaru was never a speed monster. Ino never was either. 


> Asuma in general was hyped to be above Kimimaro



The two were never compared other than when Orochimaru said that he would have had no problem with the Konoha invasion if Asuma had been there. Never was it said that Asuma was on a higher level. They were both elite enough for Kabuto to resurrect.


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## Punished Pathos (Aug 12, 2013)

Kabuto said Kimimaro was Orochimaru's strongest servant. Kabuto was Kakashi level,so Kimimaro>>>

Face it, Asuma is going down.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Where do you get the idea that Kishi has no input? None at all? Link proof.



In the fact that the manga debunks the databook.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> And you are so very wrong about Lee: it goes to show that you research none of your claims.
> 
> 
> 
> His DB stats are there. He hadn't even reached a 5 in speed by the third DB, which was set in Part II.



My bad. Anyway Hidan and Kisame have the same amount of chakra in the DB, but the manga states that Kisame has far more 

The databook is simply wrong.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> That Fuuton is unranked because there is no DB entry for it yet. It doesn't look A ranked. In any case, that massive wave of sand that Gaara used? Yondaime Kazekage didn't even think it was possible for anyone but Shukaku, a Bijuu, to use it.





Genin Gaara's sand wave is a joke compared to the one he used as Kage.




SubtleObscurantist said:


> Which couldn't even take out Shurado, which was demolished by a single Rasengan.




Ashurado was demolished. He could barely move after that.
Also Ashurado was taken by a sage rasengan+sage shunshin combination.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Shikamaru was never a speed monster. Ino never was either.



Yondaime Kazekage didn't even think it was possible for anyone but Shukaku, a Bijuu, to use it

Shikamaru has always been fast.

Yondaime Kazekage didn't even think it was possible for anyone but Shukaku, a Bijuu, to use it



SubtleObscurantist said:


> The two were never compared other than when Orochimaru said that he would have had no problem with the Konoha invasion if Asuma had been there. Never was it said that Asuma was on a higher level. They were both elite enough for Kabuto to resurrect.



Orochimaru never said that he wouldn't have troubles invading Konoha with kimimaro's help. That was filler.

Asuma is one of the 12 guardians of the Lord of the land of fire. Kimimaro is one of Orochimaru's experiments.



Pathos Grim said:


> Kabuto said Kimimaro was Orochimaru's strongest servant. Kabuto was Kakashi level,so Kimimaro>>>
> 
> Face it, Asuma is going down.



Orochimaru said that he could have defeated Itachi when he was a child, the manga proved him wrong.


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## Ennoia (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Orochimaru never said that he wouldn't have troubles invading Konoha with kimimaro's help. That was filler.



Kabuto said it and Orochimaru agreed.


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## Axiom (Aug 12, 2013)

I'd place these two on the same level, that being Elite Jounin, and I think this is a really close fight.  I'm inclined to say Asuma could penetrate the bone plate, he'd just have to put all of his force into one blow with his sharpest Hien.  He wouldn't be able to slash at it, he'd need a full powered stab.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he would accomplish one against a CS2 Kimi, who got hit by a debilitated Lee in like 2 seconds, and couldn't even walk around that Shukaku shield >.>, but it would be quite a challenge.  I don't much like his chances of landing his fuuton, and his katon is out of the questions.

But with Kimi in CS2, it's tough to call.  I don't think he has the finesse to hit Asuma when in this state, so it comes down to whether or not Asuma can land a hit before Kimi uses SnM, and that seems like a 50/50 proposition to me.

This is more interesting to me with CS1 Kimi, who still has his durable bone masks that are tough to penetrate, but the difference is CS1 Kimi can't be touched by Lee, ever.  He only needed a partial CS1 transformation to fodderize both Drunk Lee and First Gate Lee.  He has a lot more finesse and an ability to meet Asuma in taijutsu while in CS1, and perhaps pull out a win.

But with the slowness of CS2, it's SnM or bust.


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## 2Broken (Aug 12, 2013)

This battle is simple in my opinion Asuma is obviously outclassed in most categories (Strength, Skill, Durability, Attack range, etc)

The only way Asuma can possibly win is if he is so much faster than Kimimaro that Kimimaro can't properly react to him. I honestly doubt he is faster than him at all so Kimmimaro can beat him in base imo.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Genin Lee has a 5 in speed, the same as Gai.
> 
> Databooks mean nothing.
> 
> ...



Asuma futon didn't destroy the mask 1010 fan did

Asuma futon only feat is ino can avoid it
So anyone who is anyone can as well. Again asuma hien has no feats or
Anything to suggest he can damage kimi. Kimi base bones tank chakra enhanced blades 
His offensive bones are quite obviously less durable than his bones plates 

Also your DB means nothing is just dumb

Lee with 5 in speed doesn't mean he is equal to gai 5 
However it means they are both speed specialist 
so anyone fighting against them would notice they are fast
That's how it works


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

zuhaitz uses hype to justify who wins
Kinkaku is suddenly Kage level cuz he assisted 17 other shinobi in killing the 2nd 
darui is Ei right hand man therefore his attacks with no feats can beat kimimaro because kimi fought people with a lesser status


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## Punished Pathos (Aug 12, 2013)

The four most hyped characters in the manga.

Hanzo
Hiruzen
Kimimaro
Itachi

All of them can prove their hype.

Kimimaro went through a lot of battles and against different type of Shinobi.
Thats big, being able to adapt to changing battle situations.
Kishimoto written Kimimaro well enough for any reader to see that.
He fought two jinchurikis and would have killed them both.
Naruto was about to get his head removed and Gaara would have been impaled on a giant bone alongside with Lee. Kishimoto had to kill Kimimaro with loldisease. 
I don't see how Asuma is gonna beat a 15 year old who blitzed The Sound Four while in base and walked out of being crushed by tons of sand. Kimimaro is like Wolverine


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 12, 2013)

All Asuma is really good at is really Taijutsu which even his blades can't really help against Kimimaro IMO. Kimimaro was so strong that he was practically blowing through a lot of Gaara's attacks and would've done a lot better had he not been ill.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Kinkaku is suddenly Kage level



I totally believe both Kinkaku and Ginkaku individually are low-mid Kage level, same as Darui and Kimimaro. Together, and with all of their weapons available, I think they represent a high Kage level threat. 

In life, they were selected to capture Kurama, who they survived and got a substantial power boost from, and were entrusted with all of the Rikudo's weapons, which they wielded thanks to being distant descendants of the Rikudo Sennin himself. They were able to mount an ambush on both the Nidaime Raikage and Hokage that they survived and which left Tobirama close to death and later were able to participate in his death. They were amongst the elite shinobi Kabuto chose to resurrect and were called famously strong by Ao and treated with a great deal of deference by Darui, who called them gold and silver and were considered too strong for any one shinobi present to defeat when they were fighting together untransformed or when individually transformed. Ei himself wanted to enter the battle because of them.

Kinkaku, transformed, was singlehandedly turning the tide against the Alliance to the point they were being decimated and it took an extensive combination strategy with reinforcements and tactical support from HQ to bring him down. And it took no small measure of luck for Darui to take out Ginkaku simply because of something which apparently had never happened to them before (the whole secret word changing even while being sucked in). Plus, he had support from two other Kumo Jounin in getting a read on their abilities before having to take them on by himself and was aided by their tremendous overconfidence against "second class" shinobi. 

Taken as a whole, they have the hype (which I do consider important) and feats to be considered Kage level. The level of combat that Kishimoto featured during the war was pretty much exclusively borderline Kage class _at the very bare minimum_ and vast majority of fights were above that. (The lowest level fight I recall getting much attention was Asuma vs his former pupils.) And for the record, while it's true that Darui has no single attack good enough to take out Kimimaro, and for that reason is going to struggle, he has some possible combinations of maneuvers which might work. Ranton is fast and guided and has been used to blind opponents before (heck, they used it that way against the Juubi) so either that or a Suiton + Raiton combo could stun him. Black lightning could then paralyze him long enough for a Raiton enhanced blade to chop away. Now truth be told, Darui's relative lack of destructive power is his biggest weakness compared to other shinobi I consider to be of a similar level, but he is a clever shinobi so he can make up for that. I regard him and Kimimaro to be on the same level, but I think that Kimimaro has a stylistic advantage over him because of his tank status. Although Darui could make up for that with amber sealing pot. That tool alone would boost Darui to the mid-high kage level because of it's extreme potency seeing as how against a single opponent without knowledge, almost anyone could potentially be defeated with it.


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## Axiom (Aug 12, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> The four most hyped characters in the manga.
> 
> Hanzo
> Hiruzen
> ...



But Asuma could do literally everything on that list except walk out of Gaara's sand.  Kimi is without a doubt more durable, but all the other stuff isn't really that impressive when looked at from Asuma's point of view.

Asuma wouldn't need to tank Gaara's sand though, because he'd banish Gaara to the shadow realm long before Gaara has the chance to grind all that sand.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 12, 2013)

The databooks are the worst thing created. Hiruzen has less speed then Lee, Shizune, and Yamato. Shizune has more speed then Tsunade. Furthermore, Asuma has more speed then Kisame.

Get that DB shit out of here.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 12, 2013)

I don't really see what's wrong with those stats.  The most ridiculous one would be Shizune's being faster than Tsunade, but the DB only takes into account like foot speed and jumping speed and whatnot.  Shunshin doesn't count because that's ninjutsu, but obviously Tsunade's shunshin decimates Shizune's.  Hence Tsunade's 5 in ninjutsu.  Same thing applies to Hiruzen, who would probably lose a footrace to any of the three to whom you compared him.

Kisame and Asuma probably have pretty comparable shunshins, too.  But Kisame's speed isn't really that great.  His reaction speed is pretty amazing though, certainly better than Asuma's.

But as far as determining who would win a footrace between all of those characters, I think the DB got it right.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 12, 2013)

Hidan being at a 3.5 in speed while Kakashi is at 4.5 speed and Kakazu is at 4.0 in speed. Doesn't make sense since Base Kakazu was practically equal with Kakashi in Speed and Taijutsu. Actually, without Shikamaru, Kakashi would've been screwed w/o Kamui.

 It's inaccurate. I'm not saying it's bad, but DB isn't really reliable. 

 I also can't  see the 3rd Hokage being slower than Kakashi IMO since Kakashi (Pre-Timeskip) is faster than a guy who in his elderly years managed to beat a guy who would rape Kakashi.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 12, 2013)

Axiom said:


> I don't really see what's wrong with those stats.  The most ridiculous one would be Shizune's being faster than Tsunade, but the DB only takes into account like foot speed and jumping speed and whatnot.  Shunshin doesn't count because that's ninjutsu, but obviously Tsunade's shunshin decimates Shizune's.  Hence Tsunade's 5 in ninjutsu.  Same thing applies to Hiruzen, who would probably lose a footrace to any of the three to whom you compared him.
> 
> Kisame and Asuma probably have pretty comparable shunshins, too.  But Kisame's speed isn't really that great.  His reaction speed is pretty amazing though, certainly better than Asuma's.
> 
> But as far as determining who would win a footrace between all of those characters, I think the DB got it right.



Speed ties in with reactions, so everything you posted is moot.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 12, 2013)

Where are you getting that from?

There's no way Tsunade has worse reactions than Shizune, but it's not far-fetched to say her foot speed is worse than Tsunade's.  Pretty sure Shizune and Kisame both have 4's in speed, but Kisame was able to somewhat react to V2 Kirabi and he easily beat down Three-Tailed Bee in CQC.

I'm inclined to say reactions are more tied in with the taijutsu stat than the speed stat, which would explain Tsunade and Hiruzen having 5's in that stat.


----------



## iJutsu (Aug 12, 2013)

Doesn't Asuma have that tech that reduces people to ash or was that just anime filler?


----------



## Veracity (Aug 12, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Where are you getting that from?
> 
> There's no way Tsunade has worse reactions than Shizune, but it's not far-fetched to say her foot speed is worse than Tsunade's.  Pretty sure Shizune and Kisame both have 4's in speed, but Kisame was able to somewhat react to V2 Kirabi and he easily beat down Three-Tailed Bee in CQC.
> 
> I'm inclined to say reactions are more tied in with the taijutsu stat than the speed stat, which would explain Tsunade and Hiruzen having 5's in that stat.



Cordelia or whatever posted a picture awhile back about it.
I can't find it. But someone might pull it up.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 13, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Hiruzen has less speed then Lee, Shizune, and Yamato.



Hiruzen was very old, and had a weak body that could barley handle the Shadow Clone Jutsu. I don't know why you'd expect an old man to be quick on his feet. 



> Shizune has more speed then Tsunade.



Speed doesn't account for Ninjutsu. Most of Tsunade's speed feats most likely involve the Body Flicker Ninjutsu, which would obviously fall under the Ninjutsu category in the Databook. 

Tsunade has a 5 in Ninjutsu, as well as excellent Chakra control with her medical background. Her Shunshin is probably better than Shizune's, while her foot speed is worse.



> Furthermore, Asuma has more speed then Kisame.



Kisame didn't do much moving around. He was a brawler that relied more on his inhuman physical strength rather than raw speed.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hiruzen was very old, and had a weak body that could barley handle the Shadow Clone Jutsu. I don't know why you'd expect an old man to be quick on his feet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Danzo? And for someone known to be one of the strongest Kage ever, no matter what age, he should be faster then a freaking Genin.

So she uses Ninjustu ever single time she attacks?

That's nice, doesn't change the fact he was reacting to KB.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 13, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Danzo?



Danzou was augmented by Hashirama's DNA and like 10 Sharingans. 



> And for someone known to be one of the strongest Kage ever, no matter what age, he should be faster then a freaking Genin.



Rock Lee wasn't a normal Gennin, he was a speed & Taijutsu demon. Hiruzen was an extremely old man. Physical attributes decrease with age. Remember the Madara that rescued Obito? He was so old, I doubt he was even faster than Preskip Naruto, and Madara was a legend. 

Hiruzen could beat Lee with his Ninjutsu or Genjutsu mastery, or beat him down with Enma. He wouldn't necessarily beat him in a non-flicker foot race.



> So she uses Ninjustu ever single time she attacks?



Most of her speed feats probably come from Shunshin, yes. But also, her speed stat might go up in the next Databook, as she was very relevant in the war.



> That's nice, doesn't change the fact he was reacting to KB.



So what? Suigetsu & Juugo reacted to the Raikage. It doesn't take an extreme level of reflexes to block an attack of v1 Bee's level.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Danzou was augmented by Hashirama's DNA and like 10 Sharingans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a valid statement.

Hiruzen isn't(shouldn't be) a normal Kage. He was valued as an extremely powerful ninja.

Madara was on his deathbed. Hiruzen was not. He still could fight and was still the current Hokage because he was still powerful. If not, he could have given up his position to Kakashi or Gai awhile ago. I'm still under the impression he could beat a Genin in reactions and speed.

Probably is honestly the keyword in your post. I don't think we've actually ever seen her use a shunshin. It's a high possibility though.

Doesn't prove Asuma can. Jugo and Suigestu honestly have some impressive feats.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Asuma futon didn't destroy the mask 1010 fan did



False, Tenten thought that she had killed the mask, the manga panels show that she didn't, Asuma did it by mistake.



Icegaze said:


> Also your DB means nothing is just dumb
> 
> Lee with 5 in speed doesn't mean he is equal to gai 5
> However it means they are both speed specialist
> ...



The moment you admit that the databook needs special interpretation, It's the moment you concede in that point.

Why should I believe that your personal subjective interpretation of the databook is the correct one and not the one I have?


----------



## Rocky (Aug 13, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Hiruzen isn't(shouldn't be) a normal Kage. He was valued as an extremely powerful ninja.



Remember most of Hiruzen's hype was transferred to Hashirama, such as his "God of Shinobi" title. Also, most of it originally referred to his prime. Hiruzen was a great Ninja, but his old age just wore his physical stats. That's it, it doesn't take away from him at all.

Besides, it's not like being slower than Rock Lee is a detriment. He's all about speed & Taijutsu, even if he was a Genin. Hiruzen has like 500 ways to kill Lee in under a minute. Speedblitz is not one of them (unless of course, his Shunshin is highly advanced).



> Madara was on his deathbed. Hiruzen was not. He still could fight and was still the current Hokage because he was still powerful. If not, he could have given up his position to Kakashi or Gai awhile ago. I'm still under the impression he could beat a Genin in reactions and speed.



Hiruzen actually chose Minato as a successor 13 years prior. He _was_ ready to retire. There were just no good candidates after Minato's death. Kakashi wasn't yet strong enough, and I don't think the elders would support Gai has "president" of the village. He's not really that type. He's more a super soldier. 



> Probably is honestly the keyword in your post. I don't think we've actually ever seen her use a shunshin. It's a high possibility though.



Well, Shunshin isn't normally announced when its used. Up to interpretation I suppose, but you really should gear your interpretation to support both the Manga _and_ the Databook. Kishimoto wasn't just fucking around when he wrote it. 



> Doesn't prove Asuma can. Jugo and Suigestu honestly have some impressive feats



Yes, but IIRC Asuma kept up with Kisame back in Part 1.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

Kimi is part 1 therefore fodder that has been everyone who says kimi looses argument 
Without any proof at all that asuma can actually damage kimi . His katon was lol'd but someone less durable than kimi . Asuma futon was dodged by ino. So wonder why this has been an argument . 
Kimi doesn't need feats to say he can pierce asuma because we already know his bones are sharper than steal 
asuma can b killed by a kunai like any normal person


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

No, Kimi isn't "weak" because he is from part I. He is weak because couldn't defeat Part I Lee. And that isn't weak, just not on the level of SM Naruto


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree he certainly isn't SM naruto level 
Neither is asuma, asuma gets killed by SM naruto in a second 

however not being able to defeat lee while not taking him seriously isn't the same as not being to tank asuma attacks . Because he has all the feats to suggest he can. While asuma had nothing to suggest and no feats that says he can avoid a forest level AoE bracken dance . That jutsu will force him to jump and which point he looses the fight


----------



## The World (Aug 13, 2013)

Kimi should take it with mid-high difficulty

Asuma's trench knives shouldn't be able to easily pierce his bones giving Kimi the advantage 

CS2 bone forest is a must


----------



## Ghost (Aug 13, 2013)

Hien kills Kimimaro.

Fuuton was said to have the best cutting force compared to the other elements. It's way better than foddermurai's chakra weapons.


----------



## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

iJutsu said:


> Doesn't Asuma have that tech that reduces people to ash or was that just anime filler?



Its more like coal dust, which he ignites and causes a fiery explosion.



Axiom said:


> I don't really see what's wrong with those stats.  The most ridiculous one would be Shizune's being faster than Tsunade, but the DB only takes into account like foot speed and jumping speed and whatnot.  Shunshin doesn't count because that's ninjutsu, but obviously Tsunade's shunshin decimates Shizune's.  Hence Tsunade's 5 in ninjutsu.  Same thing applies to Hiruzen, who would probably lose a footrace to any of the three to whom you compared him.
> 
> Kisame and Asuma probably have pretty comparable shunshins, too.  But Kisame's speed isn't really that great.  His reaction speed is pretty amazing though, certainly better than Asuma's.
> 
> But as far as determining who would win a footrace between all of those characters, I think the DB got it right.



It doesn't take shit into account.  Its some made up numbers some intern came up with with all of about a quarter of a second worth of thought.


----------



## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Itachi and Kisame are weaker then Jirayia...



And you think that is wrong?  LOL!!
If Itachi didn't bail Kisame out of that trap, Jiraiya would have won that fight in 2 seconds.


----------



## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I totally believe both Kinkaku and Ginkaku individually are low-mid Kage level, same as Darui and Kimimaro. Together, and with all of their weapons available, I think they represent a high Kage level threat.
> 
> In life, they were selected to capture Kurama, who they survived and got a substantial power boost from, and were entrusted with all of the Rikudo's weapons, which they wielded thanks to being distant descendants of the Rikudo Sennin himself. They were able to mount an ambush on both the Nidaime Raikage and Hokage that they survived and which left Tobirama close to death and later were able to participate in his death. They were amongst the elite shinobi Kabuto chose to resurrect and were called famously strong by Ao and treated with a great deal of deference by Darui, who called them gold and silver and were considered too strong for any one shinobi present to defeat when they were fighting together untransformed or when individually transformed. Ei himself wanted to enter the battle because of them.
> 
> ...



That whole story was so bad Kishi should have left it on the floor.

The ridiculous hype.
The horrid back story.
Then they lose to 100% plot no jutsu.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> I agree he certainly isn't SM naruto level
> Neither is asuma, asuma gets killed by SM naruto in a second
> 
> however not being able to defeat lee while not taking him seriously isn't the same as not being to tank asuma attacks . Because he has all the feats to suggest he can. While asuma had nothing to suggest and no feats that says he can avoid a forest level AoE bracken dance . That jutsu will force him to jump and which point he looses the fight



True, neither is Asuma, they are both about the same level (at most), a tier below Darui 

And having the greatest fuuton cutting attack aside from the FRS should help to injure the overestimated bone of Kimimaro.

And Asuma won't need to jump, the bone forest is slow, Asuma will just climb one of the bones.


----------



## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Darui has no feats to speak of!
He doesn't even have hype.
As far as we know he is somewhere between jounin fodder and elite jounin.

Asuma is Elite Jounin.
You got a long way to go to prove Darui can even reach that level, never mind Kimi's level.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> He is weak because couldn't defeat Part I Lee.



After having just crawled off his death body, and moving his body with will alone, he casually defeated an army of bloodlusted Kurama chakra Naruto Bunshins while in base and without using his better techniques. He defeated Lee in this badly weakened state while using only a small portion of the first stage of the Juin's power and refraining from using his best techniques and Gaara had to rescue him. He then defeated Gaara in this badly weakened state and would have killed him outright had his illness not gotten the best of him at that point, which it wouldn't have had he not had to do so much exertion prior to his fight with Gaara. 

Once again, you show that you don't even pay attention to what is going on in the manga and just base it all off your snap impressions of levels which you then pass off as "common sense".


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> Darui has no feats to speak of!
> He doesn't even have hype.
> As far as we know he is somewhere between jounin fodder and elite jounin.
> 
> ...





Darui first division general. Darui the right hand of the 4th Raikage. Darui the disciple of the 3rd Raikage. Darui of the black lighting, the gale jutsu user.

He sure doesn't have any hype.

Darui the guy that sealed the Kin-Gin bros. Darui the shinobi that could use Rikudo's weapons for a whole day and night. Darui who react and stop MS Sasuke's shunshin attack. Darui who can manhandle Suigetsu, the second Zabuza and the right hand of Sasuke, in a kenjutsu battle.

He sure lack feats aswell.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> After having just crawled off his death body, and moving his body with will alone, he casually defeated an army of bloodlusted Kurama chakra Naruto Bunshins while in base and without using his better techniques. He defeated Lee in this badly weakened state while using only a small portion of the first stage of the Juin's power and refraining from using his best techniques and Gaara had to rescue him. He then defeated Gaara in this badly weakened state and would have killed him outright had his illness not gotten the best of him at that point, which it wouldn't have had he not had to do so much exertion prior to his fight with Gaara.
> 
> Once again, you show that you don't even pay attention to what is going on in the manga and just base it all off your snap impressions of levels which you then pass off as "common sense".



He was moving his body with will, which allowed him to move freely as if he wasn't ill.
After  battling with 100 ninjas with 1/100 of KN0's power and that were in berserk mode, unable to think any strategy.
He couldn't kill a Lee that was operated that morning and that still needed medical attention. 
Then he was defeated by Gaara.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> He was moving his body with will, which allowed him to move freely as if he wasn't ill.
> After  battling with 100 ninjas with 1/100 of KN0's power and that were in berserk mode, unable to think any strategy.
> He couldn't kill a Lee that was operated that morning and that still needed medical attention.
> Then he was defeated by Gaara.



No, it means he had to focus just to keep his body upright. Then focus more just to make it move. It was a feat of monumental will _just to keep going_. That is will that would normally be focused on fighting at the highest level. The notion that on his deathbed he was fighting just like normal is so laughably ridiculous I know that no one believes it but just pretend like they do to argue against Kimimaro. When Itachi was sick, Zetsu said his performance was visibly affected, and as bad condition as he was, he wasn't on his deathbed and supposed to be unable to move.

And casually decimating them like nothing. Compare that to how they fared against Gaara using some of Shukaku's power. 

He was about to kill Lee when Gaara rescued him.

Gaara was beat when Kimimaro came out of his own bones forest. He got lucky that Kimimaro's illness got the best of him when it did and admitted that he got lucky.


----------



## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Darui first division general. Darui the right hand of the 4th Raikage. Darui the disciple of the 3rd Raikage. Darui of the black lighting, the gale jutsu user.
> 
> He sure doesn't have any hype.
> 
> ...



2 meaningless titles
He was a student and a bodyguard later.

That isn't hype, or piss poor hype at best.


Any shinobi could have defeated those 2 idiots given the method.  
Plot no Jutsu isn't a feat.  
TenTen could have done it FFS. 

Ino Shikamaru & Chouji sealing V2 kyuubi
Are Ino Shikamaru & Chouji > V2 Kyuubi?  
No!  They had an overpowered sage tool, just like Darui!  
It was Plot No Justu!
*
Plot no Jutsu isn't a feat.*



Zuhaitz said:


> He was moving his body with will, which allowed him to move freely as if he wasn't ill..



That is one of the dumbest things I have read in a long time.
Your bias is so overwhelming that you will say anything at this point won't you?
Are you that afraid of losing face?  It's ok, we are all wrong sometimes.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> No, it means he had to focus just to keep his body upright. Then focus more just to make it move. It was a feat of monumental will _just to keep going_. That is will that would normally be focused on fighting at the highest level. The notion that on his deathbed he was fighting just like normal is so laughably ridiculous I know that no one believes it but just pretend like they do to argue against Kimimaro. When Itachi was sick, Zetsu said his performance was visibly affected, and as bad condition as he was, he wasn't on his deathbed and supposed to be unable to move.
> 
> And casually decimating them like nothing. Compare that to how they fared against Gaara using some of Shukaku's power.
> 
> ...



That's why he said that he felt free from his body? Being free from his body means that he had to concentrate not to die? I tough It meant that his will allowed him to move freely, my bad /SARCASM

He was about to almost killing post operation Lee who couldn't use more than the first gate, after some time of fight. Of course, I wouldn't expect less from a Kage level shinobi/SARCASM2

And later Gaara gave him more than just troubles.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> 2 meaningless titles
> He was a student and a bodyguard later.
> 
> That isn't hype, or piss poor hype at best.
> ...



Corrected. 

And by the way, this is the second thing:
"Plot no Jutsu isn't a feat.  
TenTen could have done it FFS. 

Plot no Jutsu isn't a feat.[/U][/B][/COLOR]"

And this one the third:
"2 meaningless titles
He was a student and a bodyguard later.

That isn't hype, or piss poor hype at best."


----------



## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Your bias is so overwhelming that you will say anything at this point won't you?
That last post isn't even legible.
Are you that afraid of losing face? It's ok, we are all wrong sometimes.  
You are wrong now.  Just admit it!


----------



## Akitō (Aug 13, 2013)

What does 'healthy' Kimimaro mean? Is he faster and stronger than he showed in Part I, or is he just more fit? 

If he's faster and stronger, then it'd just depend on how much of an increase he receives. When he was sick, I place him at the level of a mid-jōnin, which is a far cry from the elite jōnin that Asuma is. He didn't outclass an injured Lee as much as Asuma would have, and he never demonstrated the raw speed or superiority over Garra that an elite jōnin should have. So if the only boost that he gets from being healthy is that he won't drop dead from his sickness, then I don't think he'd beat Asuma.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> Your bias is so overwhelming that you will say anything at this point won't you?
> That last post isn't even legible.
> Are you that afraid of losing face? It's ok, we are all wrong sometimes.
> You are wrong now.  Just admit it!





You are saying that being named general in the alliance, one the 5 generals that will command 10000 shinobis, isn't hype. 



You are saying that being a Kage's right hand isn't hype.



You are saying that sealing the 2 most powerful Edos in the battle of the bay of Lighting land isn't a feat because you think that It was luck.

Try to argue for real, give points. You are just saying that whatever I say is not valid because you don't agree instead of trying to make a point.

I'll gently wait for you to give real arguments.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Akitō said:


> What does 'healthy' Kimimaro mean? Is he faster and stronger than he showed in Part I, or is he just more fit?
> 
> If he's faster and stronger, then it'd just depend on how much of an increase he receives. When he was sick, I place him at the level of a mid-jōnin, which is a far cry from the elite jōnin that Asuma is. He didn't outclass an injured Lee as much as Asuma would have, and he never demonstrated the raw speed or superiority over Gar that an elite jōnin should have. So if the only boost that he gets from being healthy is that he won't drop dead from his sickness, then I don't think he'd beat Asuma.



Healthy Kimimaro is a legendary Kage level character above anyone Konoha could have sent to prevent Sasuke running away. That includes Gai, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Danzou, etc.

But getting real, healthy Kimimaro would be the same we saw by not dying in the end.


----------



## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Akitō said:


> What does 'healthy' Kimimaro mean? Is he faster and stronger than he showed in Part I, or is he just more fit?
> 
> If he's faster and stronger, then it'd just depend on how much of an increase he receives. When he was sick, I place him at the level of a mid-jōnin, which is a far cry from the elite jōnin that Asuma is. He didn't outclass an injured Lee as much as Asuma would have, and he never demonstrated the raw speed or superiority over Garra that an elite jōnin should have. So if the only boost that he gets from being healthy is that he won't drop dead from his sickness, then I don't think he'd beat Asuma.



To reasonable and logical people, it means he is far stronger, because his body isn't riddled with illness, and he isn't on his death bed.

To zuhaits it means he is in no way stronger than he was on his death bed.   Which means that since he didn't pass the chunin exams, then he is just a strong genin.


----------



## Akitō (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> To reasonable and logical people, it means he is far stronger, because his body isn't riddled with illness, and he isn't on his death bed.



He's obviously stronger, but stronger in what way? Him not dying from his illness could just mean that he won't drop dead because of it; he'd be able to last a lot longer. That's really how I see it. But it could also mean that he's faster, his jutsu have more potency, _and_ he also won't drop dead because of the illness. Both options leave him stronger, but the second potentially leaves him a lot stronger than the first.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> That's why he said that he felt free from his body? Being free from his body means that he had to concentrate not to die? I tough It meant that his will allowed him to move freely, my bad /SARCASM
> 
> He was about to almost killing post operation Lee who couldn't use more than the first gate, after some time of fight. Of course, I wouldn't expect less from a Kage level shinobi/SARCASM2
> 
> And later Gaara gave him more than just troubles.



He felt free from his body because he was moving not by the power of his body. Use context. It helps. His dream was for his body to be used as Orochimaru's vessel. He felt like he had achieved something like this by moving his body not by it's own power, since it's powers had failed, but by the power of his will. This freedom didn't refer to his body, it referred to his spirit.

He wasn't a Kage level shinobi while deathly ill and no one ever said he was. He was playing around with Lee, or else he would have used the Juin to put an end to things. Heck even Orochimaru got a blow landed on him by Sasuke when he was testing him out and Sasuke was weaker than this Lee and Orochimaru is in a whole other ballpark compared to sick Kimi. And drunk Lee is nothing to be laughed at.


----------



## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Akitō said:


> He's obviously stronger, but stronger in what way? Him not dying from his illness could just mean that he won't drop dead because of it; he'd be able to last a lot longer. That's really how I see it. But it could also mean that he's faster, his jutsu have more potency, _and_ he also won't drop dead because of the illness. Both options leave him stronger, but the second potentially leaves him a lot stronger than the first.



Ever had to do physical work with the flu?  
Reaction speed
Physical strength
Agility
Everything suffers.

It seems obvious the 2nd choice is correct.


----------



## PinkiePool (Aug 13, 2013)

Forgive my ignorance but…is there actually any substantial evidence (other than speculation) that puts a "healthy"Kimimaro on a higher level of performance than what his Part 1 showings gave us? Aside from not dropping dead mid battle if course...and not beind an undead auto-respawnable combatamt as well


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> He felt free from his body because he was moving not by the power of his body. Use context. It helps. His dream was for his body to be used as Orochimaru's vessel. He felt like he had achieved something like this by moving his body not by it's own power, since it's powers had failed, but by the power of his will. This freedom didn't refer to his body, it referred to his spirit.



Tayuya:"Why is that you can move out of your bed?"
Kimimaro:"Because now mow my will moves my body, I'm free from my body"

In that context he is talking as if being free from guilt and ready to die for Orochimaru allowed him to move as if he wasn't ill, as if he was free from his ill-weak-body and his will gave him the chance to move his helthy-strong-body. 
At least in my opinion. It was the classical will over body trope. 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> He wasn't a Kage level shinobi while deathly ill and no one ever said he was. He was playing around with Lee, or else he would have used the Juin to put an end to things. Heck even Orochimaru got a blow landed on him by Sasuke when he was testing him out and Sasuke was weaker than this Lee and Orochimaru is in a whole other ballpark compared to sick Kimi. And drunk Lee is nothing to be laughed at.



Kimimaro, the funny and happy Kimimaro, was playing?
I guess that he could afford to play with Lee as he was willing to bring Sasuke to Orochimaru and kill whoever tried to oppose him /SARCASM

Kimimaro was going for the kill, and he didn't use the CS2 or his biggest attack from the start, probably, because that would have shorten his lifespan greatly.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> He felt free from his body because he was moving not by the power of his body. Use context. It helps. His dream was for his body to be used as Orochimaru's vessel. He felt like he had achieved something like this by moving his body not by it's own power, since it's powers had failed, but by the power of his will. This freedom didn't refer to his body, it referred to his spirit.
> 
> He wasn't a Kage level shinobi while deathly ill and no one ever said he was. He was playing around with Lee, or else he would have used the Juin to put an end to things. Heck even Orochimaru got a blow landed on him by Sasuke when he was testing him out and Sasuke was weaker than this Lee and Orochimaru is in a whole other ballpark compared to sick Kimi. And drunk Lee is nothing to be laughed at.



Context
Spirit

You are using concepts that are apparently way too complex for him to grasp.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Tayuya:"Why is that you can move out of your bed?"
> Kimimaro:"Because now mow my will moves my body, I'm free from my body"
> 
> In that context he is talking as if being free from guilt and ready to die for Orochimaru allowed him to move as if he wasn't ill, as if he was free from his ill-weak-body and his will gave him the chance to move his helthy-strong-body.
> At least in my opinion. It was the classical will over body trope..



It was never stated he was moving as if he wasn't ill, only that he had triumphed over his body by moving at all. There is a big difference between going from the deathbed to being able to fight, which is already a freaking monumental feat of will, to being able to fight at maximum. No one ever said he fought at maximum. It wouldn't even make sense since Itachi was still affected even though he was less sick.


> Kimimaro, the funny and happy Kimimaro, was playing?
> I guess that he could afford to play with Lee as he was willing to bring Sasuke to Orochimaru and kill whoever tried to oppose him /SARCASM



Except Sasuke had already gone forward without him.


> Kimimaro was going for the kill, and he didn't use the CS2 or his biggest attack from the start, probably, because that would have shorten his lifespan greatly.



He didn't even use Juin at the start. Even at the end of the battle against Lee, he only covered a small portion of his chest with the Juin. He only used the bare minimum level of power needed.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> It was never stated he was moving as if he wasn't ill, only that he had triumphed over his body by moving at all. There is a big difference between going from the deathbed to being able to fight, which is already a freaking monumental feat of will, to being able to fight at maximum. No one ever said he fought at maximum. It wouldn't even make sense since Itachi was still affected even though he was less sick.



Tayuya did seem to be impressed by Kimimaro being at the level he was, not for the recovery, but because his level. He showed to be above the sound 4, which was his level anyway.

As for Itachi illness, we don't know what he had, and we know that he fought below his capacity because he wanted to exhaust Sasuke to defeat Orochimaru, and then for Sasuke to kill him or watch him die. The illness wasn't the reason of his capacity according to Tobi,



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Except Sasuke had already gone forward without him.



And Naruto too, Naruto, the guy Kimimaro tough was special and he had to kill, that guy run away after Sasuke.

Kimimaro didn't have time to play with Lee, he had to stop Naruto.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> He didn't even use Juin at the start. Even at the end of the battle against Lee, he only covered a small portion of his chest with the Juin. He only used the bare minimum level of power needed.



He used the less of the cursed seal which affects the physical condition as he could, and that's the reason why he didn't use the juin.


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## PinkiePool (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> Ever had to do physical work with the flu?
> Reaction speed
> Physical strength
> Agility
> ...



I wasnt aweare that Kimimaro had the flu  I was under the impression that he suffered from the same mistirious non-specified dissease of euich we are given no symptoms of other wise comically refered to as Ninja-AIDS. Given that alk we know of this illness is thay it can apparently drop you dead without warning and that we have little to no showings of Kimimato out performing his ill part 11about self (as fwr as i am aweare at least) then I'm afraid i cannot see how the whatever theorical power increase coming about from being healthy is enough to say that Kimimaro (who struggled against an injured clearly not full powered Genin Lee and Genin Gaara) can beat en elite Jonnin that tangles with Aktastuki member, you know the organization full of S-class missing nin?

And as far as character statements go....the manga itself proves those to be fairlg unreliable without proper feats to back them up. If i may use Kabuto hkmself as an example...now I'm unable to pull manga lanel/pages since Im posting ib mobule but, if you would be so kind as to remember the brief confrontation between 4tailed Naruto and Orochimaru. When facing a Bijuu chackra bomb Orochimaru chooses to defend with a summoning three/four(?) Heavenly Gates or something like that. Tne Bijuu bomb of course blasts clean through that thing, cue Kabuto claiming NOTHING should get pass that?right after witnessing something doing just that. Now does that sounds lume a reliable source of info to you?


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

PinkiePool said:


> I wasnt aweare that Kimimaro had the flu  I was under the impression that he suffered from the same mistirious non-specified dissease of euich we are given no symptoms of other wise comically refered to as Ninja-AIDS. Given that alk we know of this illness is thay it can apparently drop you dead without warning and that we have little to no showings of Kimimato out performing his ill part 11about self (as fwr as i am aweare at least) then I'm afraid i cannot see how the whatever theorical power increase coming about from being healthy is enough to say that Kimimaro (who struggled against an injured clearly not full powered Genin Lee and Genin Gaara) can beat en elite Jonnin that tangles with Aktastuki member, you know the organization full of S-class missing nin?
> 
> And as far as character statements go....the manga itself proves those to be fairlg unreliable without proper feats to back them up. If i may use Kabuto hkmself as an example...now I'm unable to pull manga lanel/pages since Im posting ib mobule but, if you would be so kind as to remember the brief confrontation between 4tailed Naruto and Orochimaru. When facing a Bijuu chackra bomb Orochimaru chooses to defend with a summoning three/four(?) Heavenly Gates or something like that. Tne Bijuu bomb of course blasts clean through that thing, cue Kabuto claiming NOTHING should get pass that…right after witnessing something doing just that. Now does that sounds lume a reliable source of info to you?



His illness had no symptoms, it just cased him drop dead.  Just like aids!

Because that is EXACTLY what happens when you have a terminal illness!  You walk around without any symptoms in perfect health, and then you suddenly and unexpectedly fall over dead.  /sarcasm
I mean its not like we see Kimi bedridden in the story or anything.... /sarcasm

Ohh god, don't tell me you believe the dribble that oozed out of your keyboard.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Tayuya did seem to be impressed by Kimimaro being at the level he was, not for the recovery, but because his level. He showed to be above the sound 4, which was his level anyway.



Even badly weakened he is above the Sound 4 together and well above Tayuya on her own so your point here doesn't really make sense.


> As for Itachi illness, we don't know what he had, and we know that he fought below his capacity because he wanted to exhaust Sasuke to defeat Orochimaru, and then for Sasuke to kill him or watch him die. The illness wasn't the reason of his capacity according to Tobi,



But it was the reason he was so weakened after using Tsukuyomi so he got hit with the shruiken. It was the reason he was so weakened after using Amaterasu he got hit with a Katon. It was the reason he was so weakened after sealing Orochimaru that his Susano'o lost it's armor. It was the reason he died after using Tensha Fuuin.


> And Naruto too, Naruto, the guy Kimimaro tough was special and he had to kill, that guy run away after Sasuke.
> 
> Kimimaro didn't have time to play with Lee, he had to stop Naruto.



Naruto was well ahead of Kimimaro. Heck, didn't you notice? Kimimaro just waited around for Lee to take his medicine. In fact, Kimimaro spent a lot of time just standing around and talking. He clearly wasn't in a rush. After all, Kabuto had told him that Sasuke was serious competition for him, so he had no reason to think that Naruto, who he was beating easily, could threaten him. 


> He used the less of the cursed seal which affects the physical condition as he could, and that's the reason why he didn't use the juin.



If he was as in a much of a rush as you say, he would have risked it out of devotion to Orochimaru.


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## Olympian (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kisame didn't do much moving around. He was a brawler that relied more on his inhuman physical strength rather than raw speed.



Sure he`s more a brawler. Still with enough raw speed to react and defend against Gai and Bee thougth.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Despite Ino and Shikamaru both dodging it? Seriously, you keep saying Asuma is faster, better taijutsu, stronger and faster attacks, but you have no measure to say that with. You just say it. Asuma's ranged attacks were never hyped as that great. Hien is his strongest attack.



a) Shikamaru and Ino both dodged _what_, pray tell? Certainly not the Futton attack that Asuma *warm them of,* of which Shikamaru tried to capture Asuma *before finishing seal*s, of which Ino, *during all that time still only barely *managed to push Choji out of the way?

So let`s see, you are saying Ino dodged something that by the time it took her to push Choji required of Asuma: warning (shout) > starting seals > dodging shadows capture > shoot the attack. 

I fail to see where all this Ino dodging the attack comes from, from the two posters who keep refering to it. 

b) The long range Futton might be his strongest attack. But that would be too obvious. As obvious as all of them dying if it wasn`t for the conditions described above. Or as almost as obvious of them being burned to death if it wasn`t for giant Choja shielding them. So maybe.



Icegaze said:


> Asuma futon didn't destroy the mask 1010 fan did



In the anime. But in the anime, Ten Ten used the fan on water and being below it and yada yada. In the manga the scene wasn`t drawn the same way. But it matters little, a beam of Futton particles will do what it obviously sounds like. 



Icegaze said:


> Asuma futon only feat is ino can avoid it



False. The scene shows Ino can survive it *within* conditions. Her own words after the fact tell us that without them, she wouldn`t have. 



Icegaze said:


> So anyone who is anyone can as well. Again asuma hien has no feats or
> Anything to suggest he can damage kimi. Kimi base bones tank chakra enhanced blades
> His offensive bones are quite obviously less durable than his bones plates



False. You were given an example that obviously exceeds the Samurai swords example.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Even badly weakened he is above the Sound 4 together and well above Tayuya on her own so your point here doesn't really make sense.



Or he wasn't that badly ill if he could still be above them. 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> But it was the reason he was so weakened after using Tsukuyomi so he got hit with the shruiken. It was the reason he was so weakened after using Amaterasu he got hit with a Katon. It was the reason he was so weakened after sealing Orochimaru that his Susano'o lost it's armor. It was the reason he died after using Tensha Fuuin.



According to Zetsu. But according to Tobi, who knows more, he was faking part of the illness to trick Sasuke.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Naruto was well ahead of Kimimaro. Heck, didn't you notice? Kimimaro just waited around for Lee to take his medicine. In fact, Kimimaro spent a lot of time just standing around and talking. He clearly wasn't in a rush. After all, Kabuto had told him that Sasuke was serious competition for him, so he had no reason to think that Naruto, who he was beating easily, could threaten him.



Kimimaro letting Lee take his medice could be related with the fact that he was ill for years. Which doesn't change the fact that Kimimaro doesn't play around, he was serious as hell, ready to do whatever he tought necessary for Orochimaru.

And he himself tough of Naruto as special.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> If he was as in a much of a rush as you say, he would have risked it out of devotion to Orochimaru.



No. Just he opposite, he devotion to Orochimaru made him restrain himself to make sure he killed all the treats. If he used all he had against Naruto for example, he may have died there, leaving Sasuke coffin the middle of nowhere.
If he used all he had against Lee he may have die before being able to caught Naruto.

And against Gaara he had not other chance but to use his most destructive (and less healthy) jutsus.


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## PinkiePool (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> His illness had no symptoms, you just drop dead.  Like aids!
> 
> Ohh god, don't tell me you believe the dribble that oozed out of your keyboard.
> God damn kids these days.



Ad Hominem and Starwman-ing isnt a rebutal 

This here we be discussing is a fanasy Japanese Comic where the author claims a character to be ill yet describes in which way it is actually inconveniencing said person. All we have is Kimimaro dropping dead mid fihgt and Tayuya declaring surprise the guy was ou if bed. But then again, why couldnt he get up? Chronic Dizziness? Dehydration? What does this illnes actually does to Kimimaro other than kill him in some unexplained and sudden manner? Does it force coagulant his blood insude his veins? Is that why he couldnt move?

My point is?we dont actuallh know in which specific way the illness weakened Kimimaro, so we have no way of quantifying his state while healthy other than speculation, and that is highly subjective. In this thread alone we have people who believe Kimimaro takes it no prob while tbe other side argues he gets dominated as if this were BDSM porno.

Nice way to dodge the point about the unrelaibility of character statements in this manga btw. Hey guys, anyone recall that one statement about the sword from Mist village that can break any defense? I guess now we know what beats Itachi' Sussano'o, eh?


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Or he wasn't that badly ill if he could still be above them.



Or he was even further above them healthy.


> According to Zetsu. But according to Tobi, who knows more, he was faking part of the illness to trick Sasuke.



Sasuke didn't even know he had an illness. That faking would have been a waste of time. That coughing up blood and dying thing was not faked.


> Kimimaro letting Lee take his medice could be related with the fact that he was ill for years. Which doesn't change the fact that Kimimaro doesn't play around, he was serious as hell, ready to do whatever he tought necessary for Orochimaru.



So he stood around letting Lee take his medicine, stood around plenty during the fight, spent plenty of time talking....and you think he was rushing to take Lee down?


> And he himself tough of Naruto as special.



Because of his chakras. But he himself had no trouble with him. 


> No. Just he opposite, he devotion to Orochimaru made him restrain himself to make sure he killed all the treats. If he used all he had against Naruto for example, he may have died there, leaving Sasuke coffin the middle of nowhere.
> If he used all he had against Lee he may have die before being able to caught Naruto



And if he didn't use it, he wouldn't be able to catch Naruto anyway. He clearly wasn't in a rush.There is just no evidence for it. Nothing he did at any point in his fights indicated he was in a rush. He took his time at every interval and every stage of the fight.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

PinkiePool said:


> Ad Hominem and Starwman-ing isnt a rebutal
> 
> This here we be discussing is a fanasy Japanese Comic where the author claims a character to be ill yet describes in which way it is actually inconveniencing said person. All we have is Kimimaro dropping dead mid fihgt and Tayuya declaring surprise the guy was ou if bed. But then again, why couldnt he get up? Chronic Dizziness? Dehydration? What does this illnes actually does to Kimimaro other than kill him in some unexplained and sudden manner? Does it force coagulant his blood insude his veins? Is that why he couldnt move?
> 
> ...



Logic applies in that world as well. 
There are simply a few different rules.

What you are saying is absolute herp derp. 
We even know he was bedridden.  Do yo think he was bored?


You don't know his exact conditions, because who cares?  
This isn't an episode of House!  Terminal illness has obvious implications!


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## PinkiePool (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> Logic applies in that world as well.
> There are simply a few different rules.
> 
> What you are saying is absolute herp derp.



Logic. In a world tbat has a technique allowing tbe catser to bring people from the dead. Where an eyeball coming from a specific bloodline grants the person possessing use of a pocket dimension. Never mind that we are not told how and why these things work they simply do 

Regardless of arguments on how much real world logic applies to the japanese fantasy comic,  my point still stands. Since Kishimoto didnt bother telling us in which ways Kimimaro's illness affects his abilities, other than leaving bedded for extended amounts of and sudden, unannoced death, how he perfoms while healthy is unquantifiable.

If we think about it there are various different reasons why a person would be tied to a bed die to illnese. They range from heart dysfunction to chronic headaches. Kimimaro could have been infected with syphilis for all we know


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

If you don't think logic applies, then there is nothing to discuss.  
Left is Right, right is apple. 
2+2 = fish
Genin's eat worms
worms > Kage

herp 
derp


You don't know his exact conditions, because who cares? This isn't an episode of House! 
Terminal illness has obvious implications!  Unless you want to go back to ignoring logic again.


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## PinkiePool (Aug 13, 2013)

I see. Say hello to your good friend, the Red Herring, for me then. Concessions Accepted


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

PinkiePool said:


> I see. Say hello to your good friend, the Red Herring, for me then. Concessions Accepted



You don't even know what that means.  Its obviously just internet lingo to you.


Damn kids these days... My tax dollars are really going to waste.
Now that is a Red herring.


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## PinkiePool (Aug 13, 2013)

I already accepted your concession Jack-chan, there is no need to keep making a fool out of yourself


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## Akitō (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> Ever had to do physical work with the flu?
> Reaction speed
> Physical strength
> Agility
> ...



Have you ever seen anyone as strong physically as the characters in Naruto? 

Not saying that the sickness didn't do _anything_ to his stats, but these are extremely strong and fit people that we're talking about - they won't be impacted nearly as much as normal people are by illnesses. And there wasn't really ever any indication that he _was_ a hell of a lot weaker than he normally would be if he didn't have the sickness when he fought Lee and Garra: the only signs of physical deterioration from him that we saw were towards the end. I don't think it's right to overplay the sickness as much as you're insinuating; it made him weaker, but I seriously doubt that he's going to suddenly become much better in every single category.

And reading your comments to PinkiePool, you don't seem to have a sound understanding of how some illnesses work. Heart conditions don't dramatically deteriorate every physical thing about you - they allow you to function normally until the very moment that your heart overloads (i.e. things like angina). There's a ton of diseases that work like that, actually, and the way that Kimimaro's illness was portrayed makes me think that it was one of those.


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## Veracity (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Remember most of Hiruzen's hype was transferred to Hashirama, such as his "God of Shinobi" title. Also, most of it originally referred to his prime. Hiruzen was a great Ninja, but his old age just wore his physical stats. That's it, it doesn't take away from him at all.
> 
> Besides, it's not like being slower than Rock Lee is a detriment. He's all about speed & Taijutsu, even if he was a Genin. Hiruzen has like 500 ways to kill Lee in under a minute. Speedblitz is not one of them (unless of course, his Shunshin is highly advanced).
> 
> ...



- but still, He was recognized as a very powerful Kage. And the strongest Kage of his time. Lee is indeed pretty damn fast. But characters like Naruto and Sasuke gained his movement speed relatively quick. And characters like other chunnin, Gaara and Neji can react to him. Mind you, speed refers to both reactions and movement speed, so no. I cant agree with you. 

- and yes I know he chose Minato. But he only did so because he wanted to. Not because it was necessary. He still was a powerful ninja and still could battle. If he was in such a terrible shape by the time if the invasion, then he would have easily gave up his position to Kakashi because it would have been completely necessary. 

If Tsunades shunshin is up for interpretation, then why can't Hiruzen keep up with Lee? It's based on interpretation. I honestly think the 3rd would dust Lee. You think Tsunade uses shunshin frequently. Touch?. 

And for a moment I suppose. It really wasn't a prolonged battle. And wasn't that a clone?


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Have you ever seen anyone as strong physically as the characters in Naruto?
> 
> Not saying that the sickness didn't do _anything_ to his stats, but these are extremely strong and fit people that we're talking about - they won't be impacted nearly as much as normal people are by illnesses. And there wasn't really ever any indication that he _was_ a hell of a lot weaker than he normally would be if he didn't have the sickness when he fought Lee and Garra: the only signs of physical deterioration from him that we saw were towards the end. I don't think it's right to overplay the sickness as much as you're insinuating; it made him weaker, but I seriously doubt that he's going to suddenly become much better in every single category.
> 
> And reading your comments to PinkiePool, you don't seem to have a sound understanding of how some illnesses work. Heart conditions don't dramatically deteriorate every physical thing about you - they allow you to function normally until the very moment that your heart overloads (i.e. things like angina). There's a ton of diseases that work like that, actually, and the way that Kimimaro's illness was portrayed makes me think that it was one of those.



Do you believe jiraiya being poisoned by tsunade thus screwing up his chakra control impacted jm?n abilities? 
Do you believe itachi illness impacted his abilities ? 
so why is kimimaro different? kimi died on the battlefield like itachi did after purely dominating the fight while not taking it seriously and somehow people are using the feats of a dying man in a worse condition than itachi and using that to say healthy he won't b any better
 
Healthy kimi dominates also none of asuma jutsu have the feats to say they can kill kimi 

Kimi bones are sharper than steal, a kunai made of steal can kill asuma 
Which means any of kimi techniques will be lethal
Also bracken dance has a larger AOE than any of asuma jutsu so why does asuma casually avoid that yet kimi can't avoid asuma jutsu ?? 

Now am reading suddenly bracken dance is slow yet asuma jutsu with less AoE and no speed feats are fast ???
Since when ? Asuma jutsu are not fast at all. Asuma hien isn't the second best wind jutsu . Baki and Danzo have shown more impressive wind jutsu compared to hien 
hien isn't breaking through susanoo so why would someone even say hien is the second strongest wind jutsu 

Again nothing at all suggests and I mean nothing suggests asuma hien is any sharper than fodder samurai or Mifune chakra blade 

Fodder samurai have feats fodder ninja don't so I won't hold them to the same standard


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## Akitō (Aug 13, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Do you believe jiraiya being poisoned by tsunade thus screwing up his chakra control impacted jm?n abilities?
> Do you believe itachi illness impacted his abilities ?
> so why is kimimaro different? kimi died on the battlefield like itachi did after purely dominating the fight while not taking it seriously and somehow people are using the feats of a dying man in a worse condition than itachi and using that to say healthy he won't b any better



Is this a response to me? Because nowhere have I ever said that a healthy Kimimaro wouldn't be better than a sick one. 

I'm just trying to gauge how much of a difference there is. In the examples you provided, there were outright instances where it was mentioned that the characters were slowed: Jiraiya couldn't create a large enough swamp and Itachi couldn't react to things he'd normally be able to react to (said by Zetsu, I believe). With Kimimaro, we have him obviously being really sick, but we never see any symptoms of this sickness until the very end. There was no, "Damn, I'm really slow right now compared to how I should be" from him; nor was there anything similar to that noted in the manga if my memory serves me correctly. And that's why I don't think it's so ridiculous to assume that the illness didn't have as big of an impact on his battle performance as Itachi's did: we never saw anything that explicitly suggested that he _was_ slowed. And there _are_ illnesses that work that way. Not every one is debilitating like Itachi's was. 

Now understand that I'm only considering this as a tentative response, and I can very well acknowledge the plausibility of his base stats being upgraded had he been healthy. Do I think that? No. Do I consider it possible? Yes. If you believe that him being healthy boosts him in literally every category, then sure, it might be reasonable to assume that he's at an elite jōnin's level (I still think it's ridiculous to place him at the kage level, but I don't want to get into that right now). But I don't think that it does, and so I'm going to continue to assume that a 'healthy' Kimimaro is at the mid-jōnin level.

 Really, that's what this thread is about to me: how much of a detriment was Kimimaro's illness?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 13, 2013)

What? I thought Itachi definitely took the fight seriously against Sasuke. Sure, he was sick, but he took it very seriously because of that and needed Susanoo to even block Sasuke's Kirin. 

 I would think if you're sick to the point where you're not supposed to be moving like Kimimaro was, your abilities such as speed, chakra, strength etc. will decrease.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Kimimaro's stat total was already 30.5/40, and that's without the Juin, which the DB explicitly noted was not counted for the Sound 5. To give you a base of comparison, Gai had a stat total of 31.5 in the same DB. 

Also, he started coughing up blood once he used Juin Ni. And Kimimaro's illness did affect him in certain debilitating ways. We know this because he crawled off his death bed, which he wasn't supposed to be able to move from, to fight. Unless you think that Kimimaro had a willpower so enormous that he could not only stand, move, and fight like this, but fight at his very best, then you have to cede that he couldn't have been fighting at maximum. He didn't need to say anything because the reader was treated to an inside scoop on the extent of his body's weakness. Whereas we needed Zetsu and Obito to point out Itachi's state because the reader didn't know.


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## Axiom (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Kimimaro's stat total was already 30.5/40, and that's without the Juin, which the DB explicitly noted was not counted for the Sound 5. To give you a base of comparison, Gai had a stat total of 31.5 in the same DB.



Guess who scores better than the both of them?  Asuma, with a 32.5   Asuma also scores on par with Kakuzu and Kisame, and better than Deidara (32) and Hidan (31.5)

So the DB overall scores would have you believe that Asuma is better than Gai (albeit base Gai, so it may be true), Deidara, and Hidan, and on level with Kisame and Kakuzu.  The only ones there that he could compete with are base Gai and Hidan if he has knowledge.

I trust each individual score in the DB, but the overall is really irrelevant, as some stats can't be quantified all that well.  It's kinda silly to compare Kimi's score to Gai's in an attempt to make Kimi look impressive.

Anyway, with regards to the sickness, Kishi usually tries to make things like this obvious.  He outright stated Itachi wasn't performing up to par, he showed (and had Jiraiya state) that Jiraiya's drugged performance was suffering, he had Jiraiya comment on Tsunade's being rusty, he had Sakura and Chiyo comment that Sasori intentionally let the last gambit attack hit him, he had Kakashi note that he couldn't save Sakura from Sasuke because kamui tired him out, and he had it pointed out numerous times that Hiruzen would have beaten Oro eight ways to Sunday had he been more in his prime.  There may be more examples, but the point is, when a character under performs for whatever reason, Kishi doesn't bury that fact in subtlety.  He makes it painfully obvious.  When there was no one to point out that Kakashi couldn't move optimally after using Kamui, he had Kakashi state it in his thoughts.

So if Kimi was fighting below his normal standard, Kishi would have just outright told the reader that was the case at some point in time, just like he does with every single other under performing fighter.  During the fight with Drunk Lee, Kimi would have had some thought bubble expressing that his speed/strength/reactions were weakened by his sickness, but that never happened.  Given that there was no comment on Kimi's performance other than he was running low on time, I draw the conclusion that his only stat that was suffering was stamina; I assume, without the sickness, he could last longer and use more jutsu, but other than that, Kishi didn't give the reader any reason to think this was not Kimi fighting as he normally would.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

I am aware of those stat totals. Gai, and Kimi for that matter, for being close quarters specialists just like Gaara suffers and Onoki will presumably suffer for being long ranged specialists. Balanced fighters, although not necessarily stronger, will get higher overall scores. But it often does represent the levels of fighters because some of their stats seem to be kind of out of nowhere since the manga didn't represent their genjutsu or what have you so it seems to me that they tailor the scores to try to arrange totals to be on certain levels. So despite Gai never having used a ninjutsu more advanced than a basic Kuchiyose, which is C ranked, he still gets a 3, which is above the median, in ninjutsu.

Oh, and like I said, Kishi had already made it painfully obvious how weakened Kimimaro was ahead of time. I suppose a reader could say, he was still fighting at the same level anyway! But I mean, how clear does Kishi need to make it for you guys when the guy crawls out of his deathbed to fight?


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## Axiom (Aug 13, 2013)

He didn't make it obvious at all though, he really didn't imply it.

I mean, if somebody's on their death bed and they get up and try to fight, I expect the to... be useless.  Like Hiruzen's drop magnified by 1,000 times.  But Kimi was fighting at a level that I don't think contradicts what you would expect out of him.  Again, he could just have Kakashi stumble and leave us to draw our own conclusions about Kakashi after using MS, but that's not how he rolls.  He explicitly states "damn it using MS is the worst."

There's nothing like that for Kimimaro.  He's not hit by any stray shuriken and he's not moving at any terribly slow paces or coughing up blood all over the place (I mean, he does, only once.)  Lee specifically says he doesn't have a wasted movement when he's trying to dodge Gaara's sand wave.

Again, with no basis for a Healthy Kimi, if this incarnation of Kimi really was worse than the regular, it would have been stated somewhere, anywhere.  He does state he's moving with his will instead of his body, he doesn't state that this is any less effective than his normal movement.

But seriously, Kishi never just leaves these things to the imagination.  He always explicitly states them, regardless of whether or not it's necessary.  He didn't say anything about Kimi, nor did he show any indications of poor performance (e.g. with Itachi getting hit by stray shuriken and katons that weren't even aimed at him) so I don't know why you'd assume that Kimi would be faster or stronger or more reflexive.

Oh yeah, and he does the same thing he did for Kimi that he did for Asuma, except to a greater extent with regards to the DB.  I think Asuma had a 3.5 in Genjutsu?


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## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

Axiom said:


> He didn't make it obvious at all though, he really didn't imply it.
> 
> I mean, if somebody's on their death bed and they get up and try to fight, I expect the to... be useless.  Like Hiruzen's drop magnified by 1,000 times.  But Kimi was fighting at a level that I don't think contradicts what you would expect out of him.  Again, he could just have Kakashi stumble and leave us to draw our own conclusions about Kakashi after using MS, but that's not how he rolls.  He explicitly states "damn it using MS is the worst."
> 
> ...



The fact that the sickness killed him is indication enough


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 13, 2013)

Axiom, stop being stubborn.

 If it wasn't for Kimimaro's will and desire to please Orochimaru and be his vessel, he wouldn't have been able to move or move anywhere near as well as he did.


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## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Axiom, stop being stubborn.
> 
> If it wasn't for Kimimaro's will and desire to please Orochimaru and be his vessel, he wouldn't have been able to move or move anywhere near as well as he did.



Thank you 
In itachi case he had a spectator who knew how strong he usually was 
Kimi didn't have such . Being sick to the point people are surprised your out of bed clearly affects your abilities. I think kimi is asuma level excluding bracken dance 
Bracken dance to kimi is like kakashi kamui it pushes them to another level 

Kakashi is only Kage level thanks to kamui same way kimi is elite Jounin thanks to bracken dance 
Same way gai is only Kage level thanks to gates 
Asuma doesn't have a trump card move . and doesn't have feats to suggest he can cross the entire distance of the forest in a few seconds therefore he either gets cornered because of the bones or gets impaled by them . 

Kimi stamina was certainly affected even those against kimi
Winning  can agree with that . Stamina affects jutsu , with more stamina at his disposal he could make that forest against gaara look like a little park. 

Same way people always say itachi healthy can maintain susanoo longer than he did against sasuke


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## Senkou (Aug 14, 2013)

Kimimaro absolutely wrecks Asuma. No vaseline and no rubber.

It is implied a healthy Kimimaro would wreck the wholeof Konoha at the time. Single handed.

Being practically immortal, Asuma has no chance. Ash fire? Skin re-grows. Wind knives? Flesh repairs. He doesn't even need CS2.

Kimimaro dances on that ass.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

I agree despite the exaggeration of kimi abilities and the implication made


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

Axiom said:


> He didn't make it obvious at all though, he really didn't imply it.
> 
> I mean, if somebody's on their death bed and they get up and try to fight, I expect the to... be useless.  Like Hiruzen's drop magnified by 1,000 times.  But Kimi was fighting at a level that I don't think contradicts what you would expect out of him.  Again, he could just have Kakashi stumble and leave us to draw our own conclusions about Kakashi after using MS, but that's not how he rolls.  He explicitly states "damn it using MS is the worst."
> 
> ...



Hiruzen is another example of someone whose weakness wasn't emphasized. Tsunade being rusty, as opposed to her phobia, wasn't really emphasized. The only thing the fight made clear is that his stamina was low. That was it. That was the only way he was supposedly weakened. Which of course would still make Hiruzen a ridiculously weak Kage. For all those other times though, these were either major characters whose fights were important (and even Itachi wasn't revealed to have been weakened until afterwards) and/or because the reader wouldn't have known exactly what was happening otherwise. In Kimi's case, as much as with Hiruzen or Tsunade being rusty, or Kakashi being out of shape (something only pointed out long, long after his fight with Zabuza), Kishi leaves it to the reader to see that Kimi rolled off his deathbed, Hiruzen is ancient, Tsunade hasn't fought for twenty years, and....in Kakashi's case he never even gives us reason.

Oh, and Kimi started coughing up blood before he died when he used Juin Ni.


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## Akitō (Aug 14, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Which of course would still make Hiruzen a ridiculously weak Kage.



His stamina was implied to be incredibly reduced; he could barely create multiple shadow clones. For someone who relies on ninjutsu as his main method of fighting, not being able to use many ninjutsu in succession would naturally lessen his effectiveness by a lot. He had to battle Orochimaru extremely conservatively, and that is a major hindrance.


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## PinkiePool (Aug 14, 2013)

Senkou said:


> Kimimaro absolutely wrecks Asuma. No vaseline and no rubber.
> 
> It is implied a healthy Kimimaro would wreck the wholeof Konoha at the time. Single handed.
> 
> ...


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

Akitō said:


> His stamina was implied to be incredibly reduced; he could barely create multiple shadow clones. For someone who relies on ninjutsu as his main method of fighting, not being able to use many ninjutsu in succession would naturally lessen his effectiveness by a lot. He had to battle Orochimaru extremely conservatively, and that is a major hindrance.



Except we haven't the faintest clue of how much stamina he had before. Just like with Kimi, we never got to see prime Hiruzen. I mean, looking to analogy, Onoki's as old as Hiruzen, more or less, and his stamina wasn't anywhere near as low. Maybe Hiruzen's was just always relatively low. I mean, I don't think it was. I certainly don't want it to be. If even old HIruzen was important enough to Kishi to get attention, I am sure he would be powerscaled upwards because as it stands, old HIruzen is the weakest Kage we have ever seen. And pretty much anything of value he has is because of Enma.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 14, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Except we haven't the faintest clue of how much stamina he had before. Just like with Kimi, we never got to see prime Hiruzen. I mean, looking to analogy, Onoki's as old as Hiruzen, more or less, and his stamina wasn't anywhere near as low. Maybe Hiruzen's was just always relatively low. I mean, I don't think it was. I certainly don't want it to be. If even old HIruzen was important enough to Kishi to get attention, I am sure he would be powerscaled upwards because as it stands, old HIruzen is the weakest Kage we have ever seen. And pretty much anything of value he has is because of Enma.



The difference is that Hiruzen being handicapped was stated in the manga. As far as I remember no one stated that Kimimaro was fighting slower, or being overall weaker than he normally was.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

The only thing that was said was that his stamina was lower, and no one said by how much? What about his lack of speed or his unremarkable jutsu?


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## Akitō (Aug 14, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Except we haven't the faintest clue of how much stamina he had before.



That doesn't really matter. Your argument is that Hiruzen obviously got much weaker relative to his prime even though his stamina is the only thing that was commented on, thus indicating that Kishimoto doesn't have to outright say that someone got physically less adept for us to make a good assumption - essentially, "A stamina decrease couldn't have made such a big difference." I'm saying that a stamina decrease is potentially enough of a detriment for someone who relies on ninjutsu for their arsenal. You can disagree obviously, because it's certainly plausible that he was considerably slowed in his old age and not just unfit, but that doesn't help your argument because it relies on the assumption that Hiruzen was significantly slowed in his old age. And that isn't necessarily true depending on how much his stamina lessened over the years. 

Or, I could just have been misinterpreting what you were trying to argue.


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## Axiom (Aug 14, 2013)

It was made pretty obvious that he was also weaker physically in his old age, as he states here that he was finding the Enma staff heavier than normal.  In the bottom left panel on the previous page, Enma asks "what's wrong with you?" or some such so there's pretty clear indication that he's far removed from his prime.

Anywho, back to Kimi, Oro and Kabuto certainly didn't seem to be under the impression that he was going to be under performing.  Kabuto said something to the effect of "they don't have anybody they can send that can stop him," not "they wouldn't have anybody they can send that would be able to stop a healthy Kimi" and then he said that with Kimi that it was a certainty that Sauce would return, and that Kimi would wipe away everything that wasn't of use to Oro, which is a far cry from, "if only Kimi were healthy, he would get Sauce back and get rid of everybody."

If Kimi wasn't going to be performing as well as he should be able to, Kabuto certainly would have brought that up at some point.  Everything he said seemed to assume that Kimi would be fighting at the capacity of which Kabuto and Oro knew he was capable.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

Axiom said:


> It was made pretty obvious that he was also weaker physically in his old age, as he states here that he was finding the Enma staff heavier than normal.  In the bottom left panel on the previous page, Enma asks "what's wrong with you?" or some such so there's pretty clear indication that he's far removed from his prime.
> 
> Anywho, back to Kimi, Oro and Kabuto certainly didn't seem to be under the impression that he was going to be under performing.  Kabuto said something to the effect of "they don't have anybody they can send that can stop him," not "they wouldn't have anybody they can send that would be able to stop a healthy Kimi" and then he said that with Kimi that it was a certainty that Sauce would return, and that Kimi would wipe away everything that wasn't of use to Oro, which is a far cry from, "if only Kimi were healthy, he would get Sauce back and get rid of everybody."
> 
> If Kimi wasn't going to be performing as well as he should be able to, Kabuto certainly would have brought that up at some point.  Everything he said seemed to assume that Kimi would be fighting at the capacity of which Kabuto and Oro knew he was capable.



Is the level he fought at so low that asuma can win ?
PTS gaara is more impressive than asuma unless you think asuma can fight ichibi which gaara could transform to when he wanted .  Gaara was never genin level in fact on his introduction sasuke said he was Jounin level . Yet kimi dominated. Also why does asuma avoid bracken dance but kimi can't avoid asuma lower AoE techniques ?
Lastly asuma range techniques have nothing to suggest they can harm kimi


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

I'll cede the point about Hiruzen to Axiom, since Akito's point missed the same thing I did.

But for the case of Kabuto, they would have been talking about his present level. And even then their statement was that Kimimaro, his strongest servant, including Kabuto who was on Kakashi's level, was too strong for anyone Konoha could send against him. I would assume they would be counting out Konoha's top ranked people who don't go out on those sort of missions. But in any case, I feel like I have become bogged down in a point I really have no interest in. It is not part of my argument that Kimimaro's general abilities were dragged down by illness, only that he couldn't fight at his maximum for more than a couple minutes without dying which means he had to hold back his abilities and not use them to their fullest extent until the very end. That is, and has been, my view on how he was weakened. It is supported by the fact that he started coughing up blood shortly after using the Juin Ni, and died the moment he used his full power.


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## Axiom (Aug 14, 2013)

Could you straw man a little harder >.>

But to answer your question, Asuma would wipe the floor with SRA Gaara if he stayed in his Gaara form or he did the partial transformation he used against Sasuke.  Gaara couldn't keep up with Sasuke's speed or weightless Lee's speed, Asuma would speed blitz Gaara off the face of the Earth.  Kimi would have, too, except instead of blitzing he tried to do those stupid finger bullets and thus he gave Gaara time to grind sand and become a legitimate threat.

If Gaara went full Ichibi, he'd kill Asuma, but he didn't go full Ichibi against Kimi either so that's a moot point.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> I'll cede the point about Hiruzen to Axiom, since Akito's point missed the same thing I did.
> 
> But for the case of Kabuto, they would have been talking about his present level. And even then their statement was that Kimimaro, his strongest servant, including Kabuto who was on Kakashi's level, was too strong for anyone Konoha could send against him. I would assume they would be counting out Konoha's top ranked people who don't go out on those sort of missions. But in any case, I feel like I have become bogged down in a point I really have no interest in. It is not part of my argument that Kimimaro's general abilities were dragged down by illness, only that he couldn't fight at his maximum for more than a couple minutes without dying which means he had to hold back his abilities and not use them to their fullest extent until the very end. That is, and has been, my view on how he was weakened. It is supported by the fact that he started coughing up blood shortly after using the Juin Ni, and died the moment he used his full power.



So you think the benefits of a healthy Kimi is that he can access CS2 for a longer period of time and can last longer in fights?

Okay, we're on the same page then.  But I don't think CS2 is particularly better than CS1 in certain scenarios.  CS2 has higher durability but it's slower too, so for people who can break through the bone plates, it's counter productive.

Oh well doe, I at least agree that his stamina would be boosted were he not sick.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

SRA Gaara's sand probably got faster. He became more skilled in every other aspect  and we know that by the time of Part II his sand was certainly quite a lot faster, so I would surmise his sand would have been boasted by his power up after the Chunin exams (possibly from controlling his own chakra by containing the Shukaku's). Plus, he learned his lesson from fighting Lee and Sasuke, and spent his time keeping the close quarters specialist at range with his sand and he might well have got the idea to use his sand to get into the air as a direct counter to his rather humiliating experiences at the hands of faster opponents. Plus, Kimi seemed hesitant to use the Juin Ichi, which would have boosted his speed. 

Gaara in the SRA was simply a much better opponent against a close ranged fighter than he was before. And with the sickness ravaging his body, Kimi couldn't seem to use Sawarabi no Mai in base as he did against the samurai in Part II.


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## Axiom (Aug 14, 2013)

Eh.  When Kimi came at Gaara in CS2, Gaara threw some sand lashes at him, which missed, and then his answer was the shield of Shukaku, which is a pretty dubious defense given that any competent opponent would just run around it.

Flying away from the opponent and grinding sand is a legitimate counter, and I see no reason as to why he wouldn't be able to beat Asuma if he did that, but I don't think it's IC for him to do so.

SRA Gaara's sand shield wasn't tested much so it's hard to say how he would have fared had a CS1 Kimi just blitzed right out of the gate.  Certainly Part 2 Gaara would handle it, but SRA Gaara is open to interpretation I guess.  The focus of that fight was his ability to enhance his power by grinding sand, speed of the sand was kind of a non-factor.  Surely it's faster than it was during the Chuunin exams, but fast enough to stop a blitz from Asuma or Kimi?  Debatable.  Asuma's Hien could probably pierce the base gourd sand, I think.  Not Shukaku Defense, but the free flowing sand that he used to defend against Lee and Sauce could be slashed out of the way.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Eh.  When Kimi came at Gaara in CS2, Gaara threw some sand lashes at him, which missed, and then his answer was the shield of Shukaku, which is a pretty dubious defense given that any competent opponent would just run around it.
> 
> Flying away from the opponent and grinding sand is a legitimate counter, and I see no reason as to why he wouldn't be able to beat Asuma if he did that, but I don't think it's IC for him to do so.
> 
> SRA Gaara's sand shield wasn't tested much so it's hard to say how he would have fared had a CS1 Kimi just blitzed right out of the gate.  Certainly Part 2 Gaara would handle it, but SRA Gaara is open to interpretation I guess.  The focus of that fight was his ability to enhance his power by grinding sand, speed of the sand was kind of a non-factor.  Surely it's faster than it was during the Chuunin exams, but fast enough to stop a blitz from Asuma or Kimi?  Debatable.  Asuma's Hien could probably pierce the base gourd sand, I think.  Not Shukaku Defense, but the free flowing sand that he used to defend against Lee and Sauce could be slashed out of the way.



Ok. None of that goes against the fact that gaara was stated to be Jounin level though

What I really want to understand from posters is why does asuma attacks land but kimi's don't ?

Any one of kimi attacks Landing could kill asuma , asuma attacks killing kimi is debatable and can be debated yet kimi looses ??? I doubt anyone would say asuma tanks any of kimi techniques 

that is a serious disadvantage for asuma


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

Axiom said:


> So you think the benefits of a healthy Kimi is that he can access CS2 for a longer period of time and can last longer in fights?



Well, use the Juin in general for longer and be willing to use it more freely. And he can use his most demanding jutsu in base, like when he used Sawarabi no Mai against the Samurai. Which are both big benefits, IMO.


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## Axiom (Aug 14, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Ok. None of that goes against the fact that gaara was stated to be Jounin level though
> 
> What I really want to understand from posters is why does asuma attacks land but kimi's don't ?
> 
> ...



But the OP specifies that this is CS2 Kimimaro, and I think that's actually disadvantageous for Kimi.  CS2 Kimi is stronger than CS1 Kimi, but he's also slower, as noticed by Lee.  Lee actually got in a direct hit on Kimisaurus but it didn't do anything because Kimisaurus is a tank.

But I think the problem is that Asuma's sharpest Hien, which he can _throw_ through a tree and a boulder, should be able to penetrate the bone armor if Asuma uses a fully-powered stabbing motion.  I italicized "throw" in that sentence because if Asuma is stabbing with all his strength up against Kimi, it should be a lot more powerful than a simple throw of the trench knives would be.

So Kimisaurus loses speed and gains durability, but against Asuma, that's a bad trade off imo, because Asuma can outmaneuver him and then if he stabs him in the brain or the heart, it's GG.

Alternatively, Kimisaurus can use SnM which would very likely kill Asuma, and if it doesn't, the follow up bone merging would do the trick.  So in this case, I think it comes down to whether Asuma can stick a knife in Kimi's brain before Kimi decides to use SnM, and so I think it's a 50/50 match-up.

If Kimi started in CS1, it's a whole different ball game.  With CS1, he's fast enough such that he should probably be able to outmaneuver Asuma up close and secure the victory most of the time.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Well, use the Juin in general for longer and be willing to use it more freely. And he can use his most demanding jutsu in base, like when he used Sawarabi no Mai against the Samurai. Which are both big benefits, IMO.



of course he can use SnM in base, why would anyone think he cant. he showed it on panel 
I never assumed kimi needs cs2 to beat asuma. He has no need for it. Also his control with cs2 makes it easy for him to slip in and out of that state 

@ others 
I want to ask. Do you all agree jirobo was chunin level?
Kidomaru in chapter 193 was said to be on a whole other level, therefore above chunin level
sakon and tayuya were said to be just as strong as kidomaru
kimimaro can beat all sound 4 with ease 

So how is kimi at a low level than asuma?? being able to beat 3 above chunin+ a chunin with ease while in base easily puts him above jounin level. Since it took 2 jounins to fight all 4 and the jounins were the ones that went to the hospital. So clearly kimi is well above jounin 

so what i want to know is why is asuma suddenly faster, stronger and everything else people claim when nothing at all suggests such? When fighting against a kage level shinobi (kisame) asuma quickly got overpowered and beat 

asuma admitted hidan is far above his level, kabuto and orochimaru both agree kimi would beat asuma. So i dont get why kimi is suddenly weak and can loose to just about anyone

*ps: i agree with axiom on some level however being able to throw hien through a boulder and tree doesnt equate to being able to pierce something much much harder than steal. Btw steal is much harder than stone*


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Eh.  When Kimi came at Gaara in CS2, Gaara threw some sand lashes at him, which missed, and then his answer was the shield of Shukaku, which is a pretty dubious defense given that any competent opponent would just run around it.
> 
> Flying away from the opponent and grinding sand is a legitimate counter, and I see no reason as to why he wouldn't be able to beat Asuma if he did that, but I don't think it's IC for him to do so.
> 
> SRA Gaara's sand shield wasn't tested much so it's hard to say how he would have fared had a CS1 Kimi just blitzed right out of the gate.  Certainly Part 2 Gaara would handle it, but SRA Gaara is open to interpretation I guess.  The focus of that fight was his ability to enhance his power by grinding sand, speed of the sand was kind of a non-factor.  Surely it's faster than it was during the Chuunin exams, but fast enough to stop a blitz from Asuma or Kimi?  Debatable.  Asuma's Hien could probably pierce the base gourd sand, I think.  Not Shukaku Defense, but the free flowing sand that he used to defend against Lee and Sauce could be slashed out of the way.



Well he brought up the shield of Shukaku because Kimimaro had already committed himself to a head on attack, having already wrapped Gaara with his spinal chord whip. As for what is in character for Gaara, well the thing is, we never saw him have to fight like that in the SRA. It would probably be what he does against Asuma if he can survive the initial attack. And I agree that Asuma would fight less conservatively than Kimimaro. The latter couldn't afford to recklessly charge in, since if he couldn't make it, he would be forced to use the Juin to survive, which would tax him heavily. I think Gaara's multi directional sand attacks are fast enough in the SRA to at least slow Asuma down as he tries to dodge around them, much as his own students did in the war. But he has the advantage that his thrown Hien even in Part I is very probably better than Kimimaro's piercing attacks (which made it through the sand but lost all their momentum and just plopped out the other side) so he has a good chance of wounding Gaara at this junction. 

Once that is done, he can maneuver around the sand with speed and taijutsu even though I am assuming the sand is faster (fast enough now, I think, to deal with Lee's base speed). And his extended Hien would bypass the sand armor and kill Gaara. Now on the other hand, this is not Part II Asuma's Hien, so the initial projectile very well might not punch through the sand with enough power to hurt Gaara through his armor. If he failed there, I think Gaara would take to the sky to keep this man from getting near hear again. Once he is in the sky, and having had all this time grinding sand, I see very little chance for Asuma. But I do think Part I Asuma is still stronger than SRA Gaara.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

Did asuma improve between part 1 and 2 
Had no idea.


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## Axiom (Aug 14, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> When fighting against a kage level shinobi (kisame) asuma quickly got overpowered and beat
> 
> *ps: i agree with axiom on some level however being able to throw hien through a boulder and tree doesnt equate to being able to pierce something much much harder than steal. Btw steal is much harder than stone*



Asuma Vs Kisame wasn't really that uneven.  Kisame initially got the upper hand by surprising Asuma with his strength and shaving him with Samehada.  Afterwards, they had a CQC exchange where Asuma dodged two blows from Samehada and then scratched Kisame on the cheek with a surprise Hien extension.  Kisame then tried to attack with a water shark bullet and that's when Kakashi stepped in.

Kisame's most certainly better than Asuma, but their part 1 showings were pretty even.

Anyway, I don't recall Kimi's bones being harder than steel, only on par with it.  That said, I don't think it would be easy for Asuma, but I'm of the belief that a full powered Hien with all of his strength behind it should penetrate the bone armor.  It showed to be capable of tanking pressure damage but it never had to deal with something as sharp as Hien from somebody as strong as Asuma.

@ Subtle

If we're limiting Asuma to part 1 feats, it is indeed a closer fight.  I think I pretty much agree with your assessment of that fight and their respective levels.



Icegaze said:


> Did asuma improve between part 1 and 2
> Had no idea.



Well, by feats, his Hien extension was better in part 1 than in part 2.  One might argue that Asuma could extend Hien just as well in part 1, but you could only state it as an opinion; there are no facts that prove it.

I'm inclined to believe he improved his Hien in the three year span, because if he didn't, it doesn't make sense that he only scratched Kisame's cheek as opposed to cutting his head in half


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 14, 2013)

The problem is that Asuma is a Close-quarters fighter, which is bad as he lacks the speed and precision to keep up with Kimimaro's reflexes. Not only is Kimimaro faster, the unpredictable capabilities of Shikotsumyaku leave Asuma at even more of a disadvantage. The desnity of Kimimaro's bones is incredible; So I doubt Asuma can kill him in a single blow - even with his Trench Knives infused with Fuuton composed chakra.


On the offensive, the sharpness of Kimimaro's bones ensures that every strike from him is potentially lethal. And, should he experience difficulty, Dance of the Seedling Fern ends the game.....

Asuma won't escape the range of that jutsu, and if he somehow does manage to evade it, Kimimaro will emerge from the bones he's trapped between and impale him. He doesn't have any all-encompassing defense, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Kimimaro takes home the gold on 8/10 difficulty.


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## Senkou (Aug 14, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Ok. None of that goes against the fact that gaara was stated to be Jounin level though
> 
> *What I really want to understand from posters is why does asuma attacks land but kimi's don't ?*
> 
> ...



It's bias. The love for Asuma is high so objectivity is gone.

I mean, the argument that hien knives could pierce tree and boulder = hien pierces Kimimaro bone is faulty.

Kimi is the same dude who got trapped under Gaara's sand and still wasn't crushed. Without checking, the imperial funeral correct? Which is supposed to be a nuked version of the basic sand funeral. Yet Kimi was still able to break free and almost deal a death blow that even the insta-defense couldn't predict. How many have _not_ been crushed when sand trapped?

I don't even see a reason for Kimi to use CS2 or even CS1. A healthy base Kimi imo, could take Asuma out. Push come to shove, going CS1 to counter the effects of the ash fire. (Ie: accelerated healing x2)

Asuma never displayed Lee speed either. Possibly the slowest of all Akatsuki being able to strike him (Hidan). Kisame able to force a block out of Asuma without really trying. (Judging from later kisame combat, he likely wasn't trying much).

So its fair to say even the sick Kimi could cause considerable damage to Asuma. Nevermind a healthy Kimi who was hyped to be able to level konoha single handed if healthy. By Kabuto and Orochimaru. Legit guages of Konoha's ability at the time.

Hyperbole aside. Kimi takes Asuma in moderate difficulty combat. There is no edge to Asuma, no x-factor. Unlike Kimi whom has kekkei genkai and CS.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Asuma Vs Kisame wasn't really that uneven.  Kisame initially got the upper hand by surprising Asuma with his strength and shaving him with Samehada.  Afterwards, they had a CQC exchange where Asuma dodged two blows from Samehada and then scratched Kisame on the cheek with a surprise Hien extension.  Kisame then tried to attack with a water shark bullet and that's when Kakashi stepped in.
> 
> Kisame's most certainly better than Asuma, but their part 1 showings were pretty even.
> 
> ...



you dont remember kimi bones being harder than steal??? really?? this was stated and shown in the manga on more than 1 occasion. He was slicing through shiruken with ease. He also blocked a chakra enhanced sword. So clearly his bones are harder than steal 

Kimi tiny bones his uses to attack tanked chakra enhanced blade, dont you think the bone plates he uses to defend himself are alot denser?? So if his little protruding bones can tank chakra blades why cant his bone plates tank a chakra enhanced blade? 

fodder samurai chakra blades already have the feats of cutting through stone towers. When sasuke deflected their attack during the kage summit

*Senkou i agree with you.  though i know kimi cant take out the whole of konoha am not so into kimi to blindly suggest that.  he can however take out asuma, that much am sure of it. Cs2 was said to slow him down but not so much that he cant avoid anything at all. he did avoid gaara sand more than once didnt he. ps: he was running on gaara sand and avoiding gaara sand attacks so clearly he wasnt that slow. 
Also we have the suggestive off panel showing kimi after KCM used FRS so either he survived or avoided it. Either way that shoudlnt be ignored*

this is kimimaro fighting a genin while clearly not taking it seriously 
stab art

also people assume even in the other thread that kimi defense is weak but its not like these genin where breaking kimi defense left right and centre. His defense wasnt in the least scratched. So i wont say kimi is plastic compared to defenses like susanoo. Not saying he is more durable than susanoo however i would put him above rib cage susanoo. Which is more than enough to defend against asuma attacks. 

I mean we have seen what cs2 on its own can do. tank c2, tank Ei punch (though the second took jugo out) kimimaro can control cs2 as well as sasuke therefore even better than jugo can. cs improves his durability which is already impressive enough to tank a chakra blade. So i wonder why people think hien can even harm kimimaro. mifune chakra blade hasnt been shown to be any less sharp than sasuke chidori sword. We have already seen that depending the level of the ninja raiton can still exceed futon piercing power. So its not ridiculous to say sasuke chidori sword can block hien. 
finally fodder samurai chakra blade havent shown to be any less sharp than mifune blade, granted they arent as skilled or as strong however it wasnt clearly stated or shown that those fodder samurai chakra blades are weak any any way. 

assuming their chakra blades are weak would be like saying a fodder katon burns less hot than a named character. granted the fodder flame would be smaller but it doesnt make the flame less hot


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## Axiom (Aug 14, 2013)

It was never, anywhere stated that Kimi's bones were harder than steel.  Nor did he slice through shuriken, he merely deflected them.  On the next panel, he says his max density bones are as hard as steel.  So no, his bones were not harder than steel.  When he compressed his bones to maximum density, they were as hard as steel.  Maximum density implies that he had no denser bones, thus no bones that were harder than steel.

The samurai chakra projectiles are different from Hien because you can't put extra force behind them.  Asuma can push with all of his force with his Hien.

Anyway, Mifune's chakra, Sasuke's Raiton, and Asuma's Hien probably are all around the same level of piercing power.  But that piercing power is enough to cut through steel.  Kimi never had to tank a concentrated, piercing attack from somebody as strong as Mifune, Sasuke, or Asuma.  All he had to tank was pressure damage that was spread evenly across his entire body.  It's a whole different animal.

Asuma cut a steel blade in half in this panel.  Bee's Raiton cuts through steel (a legendary sword, no less) in this panel.  In that same panel, Sasuke's raiton flow is showed to be on par with Bee's.  And here, Mifune's Iado cut straight through Hanzo's scythe.  Note that Mifune wasn't even using chakra flow there!

So basically, Kimi bones are as hard as steel and that's penetrable as far as Hien is concerned.  They were actually being penetrated by some random samurai's chakra blade, which isn't applied with as much force as it would be were it being used by Asuma, Mifune, or Sasuke.  It was also a slashing motion, as opposed to a stabbing one, where the damage is more concentrated and thus more likely to pierce Kimi's armor.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 14, 2013)

^ Didn't he mean his regular bones and not that jutsu that CS2 Kimimaro used to break through Gaara's huge summon? I'm certain his bones would be more dense at CS2.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

Axiom said:


> It was never, anywhere stated that Kimi's bones were harder than steel.  Nor did he slice through shuriken, he merely deflected them.  On the next panel, he says his max density bones are as hard as steel.  So no, his bones were not harder than steel.  When he compressed his bones to maximum density, they were as hard as steel.  Maximum density implies that he had no denser bones, thus no bones that were harder than steel.
> 
> The samurai chakra projectiles are different from Hien because you can't put extra force behind them.  Asuma can push with all of his force with his Hien.
> 
> ...



sorry the anime confused me then, its in the anime he cut through naruto shiruken. 
In any case his base bones are as dense as steal. so in cs2 his bones are more dense agreed

when you say a random samurai what says said random samurai chakra blade can be sliced apart by hien? Not saying it cant but lets not downplay the fact that kimi tanked a steal blade with his base bone potrusions , when the blade was enhanced with chakra to increase its cutting power. 

Not saying its impossible for hien being thrown at kimi to kill him, however asuma doesnt fight like that and if he misses. he is forced to fight with 1 trench knife making him half as effective. 
also what says kimi cant dodge it or deflect it with his tail thus loosing the tail

ps: i know you didnt imply kimi cant dodge it. I am just saying if to say he really cant tank it. Though i think he could with some difficulty. I think at worse he can dodge it


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## Axiom (Aug 14, 2013)

Throwing the trench knives would be ill-advised.  I'm saying he should attempt to ram the trench knife into Kimi's brain full force.  While holding it.

This wouldn't be possible against Base or CS1, but according to Lee, Kimisaurus is notably slower than regular Kimi, so I'm of the opinion that Asuma could outmaneuver him.

Whether or not this maneuvering would lead to Hien through Kimi's brain is uncertain though, which is why I say Kimisaurus Vs Asuma is an even match-up.  Asuma is faster and can outdo him in CQC, while if Kimi uses SnM then Asuma has no answer.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 14, 2013)

^ Can't Kimimaro sprout bones all over his body making it near impossible to get a hit on him?

 It would be an offensive and defensive strategy.


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## Axiom (Aug 14, 2013)

Yeah, but he kinda limits himself to those 5 dances.  He has one dance where he passively keeps his rib cage protruded, and other than that, he usually protrudes his bones on reaction.  It's what he did against first gate Lee and what he did when in CS2.  The problem is if he fails to react because CS2 slows him down.  He didn't manage to stick bones out at Lee so he had to tail whip him


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Throwing the trench knives would be ill-advised.  I'm saying he should attempt to ram the trench knife into Kimi's brain full force.  While holding it.
> 
> This wouldn't be possible against Base or CS1, but according to Lee, Kimisaurus is notably slower than regular Kimi, so I'm of the opinion that Asuma could outmaneuver him.
> 
> Whether or not this maneuvering would lead to Hien through Kimi's brain is uncertain though, which is why I say Kimisaurus Vs Asuma is an even match-up.  Asuma is faster and can outdo him in CQC, while if Kimi uses SnM then Asuma has no answer.



i do agree with this. However please note kimisaurus is still not all that slow that asuma can run circles round him. Also note in cs2 kimi 3 base dances would be noticiably more dangerous especially the 3rd dance, asuma would be hard pressed to come up close and stab him in the brain or chest. when kimi would have giant sized bones sticking out from himself. Also the added tail also gives kimi an extra limb to fight with, for his lack of agility he has an tail to swipe an attack with. 

So yes i agree hien stab to the head would take him out however, i think before that happens asuma would have hit somewhere else sensitive which would let kimi know he cant risk it anymore and he has to opt for SnM at which point asuma dies


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 14, 2013)

I'd think CS2 Kimimaro would outlast Asuma enough to use Dance of the Seedling Fern. I doubt Asuma's hits would have much of an effect considering Kimimaro was taking on lethal hits from Gaara.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

@narutoX28 not the same type of damage though
eg: you can drop a 15 story building worth of pressure on a piece of diamond and it wont even scratch 
yet you can causally cut diamond with a diamond drill 

Also people need to note even if kimi base bones were said to be as hard as steal, he did tank a chakra enhanced blade in base. Have you all seen what his cs2 bones look like?? how much thicker and denser they are? 

no doubt in my mind that hien wont 1 shot unless its a clean head shot, which is unlikely seeing kimimaro abilities.  he can still use his 3 first dances which would be alot more dangerous and he also has the 4th and 5th dance at his disposal. The vine gives him more range than asuma hien blade so its not like asuma can just come close


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm saying that if Gaara's attacks that are lethal weren't even able to kill Kimimaro, then how would something like a chakra enhanced blade damage Kimimaro if his bones are much harder than steel?


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm saying that if Gaara's attacks that are lethal weren't even able to kill Kimimaro, then how would something like a chakra enhanced blade damage Kimimaro if his bones are much harder than steel?



i understand what you are saying however tanking being buried 200m deep or being crushed by sand doesnt mean nothing can pierce your defense. so while i dont think hien can cut through kimi i believe it should be able to pierce it. However asuma doesnt use his trench knifes to stab 
also should be resort to doing that, it should be easier to dodge. 

I honestly dont see asuma winning. I would put kimi on the same level as hidan which is elite jounin 
asuma admitted hidan was clearly above his level after hidan tanked being stabbed. Something kimi could have easily tanked with bone plate or any bone variation. 

In cs2, kimi isnt so slow as to just loose outright in CQC and like i said kimi only need jump and spin to push asuma back. Not saying asuma cant defend but while kimi wont get cut through by hien, if asuma gets stabbed a a giant protruding bone asuma might be out of the match for good


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## Nikushimi (Aug 14, 2013)

Hien should be able to damage Shikkotsumyaku if a fodder samurai's chakra katana could. Asuma's piercing feats with Fuuton are also good enough on their own merits to suggest that he can seriously wound Kimimaro with his concentrated attacks.

On top of that, he has the speed to avoid Sawarabi no Mai from a comfortable distance unless Kimimaro can manage to corner him. That burning ash Jutsu also gives Asuma a useful ranged offense that he can dish out whenever he needs to create space. It might even allow him to get in a valuable blindside attack on Kimimaro that could decide the match quickly.

Kimimaro's got better skill, but not by much; on the other hand, Asuma has him beat pretty good in physical strength.

It won't be easy, but I see Asuma pulling off a win here more often than not.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hien should be able to damage Shikkotsumyaku if a fodder samurai's chakra katana could. Asuma's piercing feats with Fuuton are also good enough on their own merits to suggest that he can seriously wound Kimimaro with his concentrated attacks.
> 
> On top of that, he has the speed to avoid Sawarabi no Mai from a comfortable distance unless Kimimaro can manage to corner him. That burning ash Jutsu also gives Asuma a useful ranged offense that he can dish out whenever he needs to create space. It might even allow him to get in a valuable blindside attack on Kimimaro that could decide the match quickly.
> 
> ...



Asuma has him beat in physical strength ??? Since when ?  
Can asuma power through gaara sand coffin , not survive being crushed but power through ?

Also kimi base bones tanked a chakra enhanced sword , cs2 makes his bones more dense 
I don't see how it's a stretch to say he can tank hien when in base he tanks chakra enhanced weapons .

Also SnM is GG what is asuma supposed to do against it ?? Jump ? Or turn his back and run away 
In which case isn't that a forfeit in BD? Also not saying asuma has to get killed by it but even if he doesn't . Kimimaro has changed the landscape to his benefit and can take out asuma with alot more ease . You know popping out from bones and what not


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 14, 2013)

Kimimaro's bones withstood the pressure of an *entire desert's worth of sand*  pulverizing him, courtesy of Gaara's *Sand Waterfall Imperial*.

Asuma is not scoring a 1-hit KO on Kimimaro. The taijutsu attack he *does*  land will be swiftly countered by random bones that Kimimaro decides to sprout from his person - much like he did to Rock Lee.

And, as *Icegaze*  propsosed,  Asuma literally has *no*  answer to Dance of the Seedling Fern.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

you and I are in agreement 
Asuma has no answer to it . Even if it doesn't 1 shot him the landscape would be too much in kimi favour for asuma to even put up a decent fight


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## Senkou (Aug 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hien should be able to damage Shikkotsumyaku if a fodder samurai's chakra katana could. Asuma's piercing feats with Fuuton are also good enough on their own merits to suggest that he can seriously wound Kimimaro with his concentrated attacks.
> 
> On top of that, he has the speed to avoid Sawarabi no Mai from a comfortable distance unless Kimimaro can manage to corner him. That burning ash Jutsu also gives Asuma a useful ranged offense that he can dish out whenever he needs to create space. It might even allow him to get in a valuable blindside attack on Kimimaro that could decide the match quickly.
> 
> ...



Really? I don't think Asuma has enoug x-factor to down a healthy Kimimaro. I see it like this..

Base level Kimimaro attacks with Dance of the Willow
Asuma avoids some, takes moderate damage
Asuma responds with Hien
Kimimaro takes moderate damage; responds finger bullets
Asuma evades/deflects, creates space, uses Burning Ash jutsu.
Kimimaro takes heavy damage; uses CS1; recovers fully
Asuma strikes with hien; countered by Dance of the Larch; takes heavy damage
Kimimaro begins Dance of the Camellia
Asuma takes moderate damage; uses dust cloud jutsu as combo breaker
Kimimaro takes heavy damage; CS2 activated; recovers fully
Asuma uses dust cloud jutsu again
Kimimaro evades; begins Dance of the Clematis; Viine
Asuma attempts burning ash jutsu; interrupted by Vine
Kimimaro pulls Asuma in; uses Dance of the Clematis; Flower
Asuma blocks with hien knives; knives destroyed; uses burning ash jutsu
Kimimaro takes heavy damage; uses Dance of the Seedling Fern
*Kimimaro wins. GG*

Like I said, no x-factor. Every time Kimi takes heavy damage, an x-factor is used, recovering from all damage. While Asuma just stays damaged. 
Neither know about each other but both are intelligent enough to evade/avoid repeated techniques. Problem is, Kimi has 5 + 1 kage tier jutsu. Asuma is forced into repeated techniques. Meaning predictability, which is why Kimi would flat out dodge a technique like dust cloud jutsu; a direct line jutsu. The 2nd time around.
Giving his chakra infused weaponry benefit of the doubt, let it block DC flower. The close range, burning ash is unavoidable while holding the DC vine.
Trump card; BD comes in and ends game.

Asuma is too bland to take on a unique borderline kage Kimimaro. Asuma is better served against someone like Zabuza etc. Than a CS/BL/Kage AoE character.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Why does kimi take heavy damage against burning ash??? Cs2 wing blocked c2 dragon and Katon
Kimi can control his cs2 as well as sasuke can . Kimi walks past that attack and yes kimi is more durable than Hidan the same way jugo is. Jugo and kimi can flat out tank a steal blade coming their way Hidan gets stabbed or pierced by them . What Hidan has is high pain tolerance his body isn't super human in the same way as kimi . Kimi doesn't have to bare the pain since he tanks it outright . ash cloud only gave Hidan superficial burns thinking that heavily damages kimi is ridiculous , it also gave chouza a tummy ache that's it. Are we to believe chouza wearing armour somehow makes him more durable than kimi as well?

Ino regardless of warning dodged asuma wind jutsu  I don't see why anyone thinks it's fast . asuma is forced to break out of using trench knifes to use it . Then use hand seals then attack using a linear wind jutsu . And somehow kimi who dodged gaara sand on multiple occasions can dodge a straight forward attack?

I guess ino has better reflexes and speed than kimimaro then . Ok


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 15, 2013)

LOL Are you comparing Sasuke's SM with Kimimaro's?

Hebi Sasuke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kimimaro.

Also hien would cut Kimimaro with utter easy.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> LOL Are you comparing Sasuke's SM with Kimimaro's?
> 
> Hebi Sasuke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kimimaro.
> 
> Also hien would cut Kimimaro with utter easy.



Of course hien would cut kimi like butter because he had difficulty fighting genin correct 
and asuma has beat up the likes of Hidan and kisame correct . Asuma is a Beast 

Gaara on his intro was said to be Jounin level which he proved by clearly Chunin exam without even a scratch in record time . Gaara improved even further yet when kimi fought him kimi was saying things along the lines of I was taking you too lightly , against lee he watched lee take his medicine and barely went on the offensive when he did lee lost quickly . But nope we wanna forget all that and give asuma Mei miracle jump  SnM GG he will resort to it quickly if hien cuts through his bone protrusions


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 15, 2013)

*You don't get tired of lying?*

Where have I say that hien cuts him because he had troubles killing kids, which he had.
Hien would cut him because fodder samurai's chakra blade, the equivalent of beginning of wind training Naruto using Asuma's weapon, cut part of his bones, and so, Asuma who is one of the best chakra weapon users will cut the rest of the bones and the flesh, the same way he didn't only pierce the tree that stopped Naruto's wind blade, but also the rock behind it effortlessly.

False, Gaara wasn't introduced as a jounin level shinobi. Stop lying.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Go back and read the chapters 
Base bones are also far less durable so samurai cutting then doesn't mean asuma can cut kimi cs2 bones
Also samurai chakra blade is above naruto at the start if wind training , his chakra didn't even look sharp the samurai's did 
So


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 15, 2013)

1- The samurai's (except for Mifune) chakra blade didn't look sharp at all.
2- The samurai's chakra nature hasn't been defined and Naruto had wind chakra, the most powerful chakra element when It comes to cutting power.
3- Never It was stated that the bones became harder with the use of the cursed seal.
4- Beginning of wind training saga Naruto is to Asuma the same as the samurai's are for the cutting power.

5-Deal with it.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> 1- The samurai's (except for Mifune) chakra blade didn't look sharp at all.
> 2- The samurai's chakra nature hasn't been defined and Naruto had wind chakra, the most powerful chakra element when It comes to cutting power.
> 3- Never It was stated that the bones became harder with the use of the cursed seal.
> 4- Beginning of wind training saga Naruto is to Asuma the same as the samurai's are for the cutting power.
> ...



Cursed seal doesn't make the bones harder ???  
Kimi using the spear in cs2 called that his thickest bone . That by defintion shows cs2 makes The bones denser. Did u see the size comparison between base bones and cs2
Bones ??

Also fodder samurai swords are sharper than naruto wind round looking chakra 
Too many panels contradict the statement that fodder samurai chakra didn't look sharp 

Also if it's so obvious to u, won't it be obvious to kimi that he shouldn't come close ?

In which case vine or SnM keep asuma at a distance . Range combat is the worst thing for asuma here

Lastly the implication that asuma has to be better and faster than lee at Taijutsu because lee was ranked as a genin is silly 
What proof is there that asuma is faster ? Why would he be better i.e harder to doge than lee in CQC?

Lee fights with all limbs , while asuma is only punching with trench knifes . Which one is easier to fight a boxer whose hands you only need watch or a karate guy whose 4 limbs you have to watch out for ?

Also I really don't why people think cuz Mei is a Kage or any Jounin rank ninja has to be better at everything compared to a genin

Why would muu be better taijutsu than lee or why would he be faster ?

He has 2 techniques which are GG to most and neither require him to be fast so why would he train at being fast ?

Do you all think lee speed just happened its after intense training that lee got that fast assuming asuma is faster than lee would be like assuming lee is faster than gai who went through the same training lee did but has been training for alot longer


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 15, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Cursed seal doesn't make the bones harder ???
> Kimi using the spear in cs2 called that his thickest bone . That by defintion shows cs2 makes The bones denser. Did u see the size comparison between base bones and cs2
> Bones ??



 x2
Kimi using his most tiring or powerful techniques with the CS2 doesn't mean that CS2 power ups the hardness of his bones. It means that Kimimaro's chakra pool or body endurance wasn't enough to use those techniques in base.

Or are you suggesting that Naruto uses the Bijuu dama while in Bijuu mode because that way he power ups it compared to his base mode Bijuu dama 

You don't know what definition means.

Bigger bones =/= harder bones

Try to make sense. 



Icegaze said:


> Also fodder samurai swords are sharper than naruto wind round looking chakra
> Too many panels contradict the statement that fodder samurai chakra didn't look sharp



Too many panels that you have forgotten to post. Maybe because they are from your personal fan fic.



Icegaze said:


> Also if it's so obvious to u, won't it be obvious to kimi that he shouldn't come close ?



Because that's the only way Kimimaro can kill Asuma.



Icegaze said:


> In which case vine or SnM keep asuma at a distance . Range combat is the worst thing for asuma here





Asuma can simply keep avoiding  the SnM, It's not as if Kimimaro's attack were so fast, even kids were dodging them.



Icegaze said:


> Lastly the implication that asuma has to be better and faster than lee at Taijutsu because lee was ranked as a genin is silly
> What proof is there that asuma is faster ? Why would he be better i.e harder to doge than lee in CQC?





Kepp lying.

I have never said that Asuma has better taijutsu or speed than post operated 13 years old Lee because of the rank.
I know he is faster than post operated 13 years old Lee because even Kurenai was faster than Neji, the same Neji that fodderized Lee 



Icegaze said:


> Lee fights with all limbs , while asuma is only punching with trench knifes . Which one is easier to fight a boxer whose hands you only need watch or a karate guy whose 4 limbs you have to watch out for ?



Depends on the speed, strength, range 



Icegaze said:


> Also I really don't why people think cuz Mei is a Kage or any Jounin rank ninja has to be better at everything compared to a genin



Keep using the rank as excuse 



Icegaze said:


> Do you all think lee speed just happened its after intense training that lee got that fast assuming asuma is faster than lee would be like assuming lee is faster than gai who went through the same training lee did but has been training for alot longer



You make no sense.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> x2
> Kimi using his most tiring or powerful techniques with the CS2 doesn't mean that CS2 power ups the hardness of his bones. It means that Kimimaro's chakra pool or body endurance wasn't enough to use those techniques in base.
> 
> Or are you suggesting that Naruto uses the Bijuu dama while in Bijuu mode because that way he power ups it compared to his base mode Bijuu dama
> ...




When did kids dodge SnM??? Levitating isn't the same as dodging an attack or jumping over jt if you don't know that then perhaps you should stop arguing . When u say none sense like kimi needs to come close to kill asuma u noe u can't be taken seriously. He can use SnM from far . I never once implied SnM is fast or too fast for asuma , only that asuma has no way to block
The attack and jumpin over the bones that will keep growing is as dumb as one can get .  The bones will start growing directly under asuma and keep growing . Because kabuto used it in a dull way to block the uchija bros doesn't mean kimi would use it like that. 

All you have is conjecture and BS. Kimi can't be durable because his base bones tanked fodder samurai Chakra enhanced blades. Asuma hien is far above that therefore king asuma slices him in half and super jumps over SnM 

Good game bro. argue with someone else now . It ain't like am the only one saying SnM trolls asuma .


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 15, 2013)

That last Dance utterly throws Asuma's already rough chances right out the damn window.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> That last Dance utterly throws Asuma's already rough chances right out the damn window.



Agreed !! Jumping over it my ass 

I just explained in the Mei vs kimimaro thread ways to dodge and defeat it. Jumping over it isnt one of them. Also how does that solve asuma problem. You know the bones covering the entire battlefield problem.  yh that problem!!  Any of those bones kimi can pop out from and kill asuma. Kimi can merge with any bone he desires. Same way dodging hashirama wood techniques isnt the end of it, because he can grow clones out of them and they can ambush you. Same way dodging gaara sand tsunami doesnt put you in the clear, especially if you are now walking on sand. Same way kisame turning the field with water using his great wave technique doesnt end if you jump over it.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 15, 2013)

Dear god, I just don't know what to say.

 If you think Asuma's chakra blades are strong enough to damage Kimimaro's durable bones when Gaara used all the sand in the area to crush him and he still managed to nearly kill Gaara, then I don't know what to say.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

@NarutoX28 They are allowed to believe what they want. I mean i just heard some people use calcs in BD do you know what that means?? it has me weirded out!!! Maybe their calcs is what suggests asuma somehow doesnt die against SnM. Maybe its those calcs kishi didnt consent to that says asuma hien is longer than kimimaro vine. 

But no for real though, how is asuma getting close when kimi is whipping his vine left and right? How does asuma land a lethal blow when kimi does his 3rd dance in cs2. You have all seen the size difference between the bones right. Bones 1/5th of that size tank chakra infused blades. Whether asuma hien is sharper or not i strongly doubt it is 5 times sharper than those samurai chakra infused blades. 

And that may just get him through 1 bone sticking out of kimimaro. Please remember kimi is spinning with bones sticking out from his body about 6 on his back and i am sure alot of pop up surprise ones in the front. 

While spinning please note even though he is slower he has his tail as well.  So there could be 20+ bones spinning towards asuma and you think asuma would risk staying there to cut kimi?? When kimi may or may not die from it, while asuma is sure to die or loose the battle quickly should one of those giant bones run through asuma anywhere on his body. 

*It seems obvious to me its asuma who wont want to come close, yet thats asuma only way of killing kimi. *

People its about how well suited a person is to fight another. Gaara was well suited against kimimaro. kimi is a close range specialist and he fought a long range specialist you can all understand why kimi didnt lol blitz or troll  if you used your brains.  

same way despite temari being a whole level below hidan, if she starts at 50m against hidan and uses her summoning wind jutsu and keeps spamming it she could actually cut hidan to bits. Its not all about portrayal people


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## Olympian (Aug 15, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Kimi can control his cs2 as well as sasuke can . Kimi walks past that attack and yes kimi is more durable than Hidan the same way jugo is. Jugo and kimi can flat out tank a steal blade coming their way Hidan gets stabbed or pierced by them . What Hidan has is high pain tolerance his body isn't super human in the same way as kimi . Kimi doesn't have to bare the pain since he tanks it outright . ash cloud only gave Hidan superficial burns thinking that heavily damages kimi is ridiculous



What Hidan does is transfer the pain. What Asuma had (and that was a smaller Katon) wasn`t "superficial burns". 

How can you tell it gave Chouza a tummy ache? 



Icegaze said:


> it also gave chouza a tummy ache that's it. Are we to believe chouza wearing armour somehow makes him more durable than kimi as well?



Base Chouja? Nah. Giant Chouja? Maybe. 



Icegaze said:


> Ino regardless of warning dodged asuma wind jutsu  I don't see why anyone thinks it's fast . asuma is forced to break out of using trench knifes to use it . Then use hand seals then attack using a linear wind jutsu . And somehow kimi who dodged gaara sand on multiple occasions can dodge a straight forward attack?



As seen against Hidan, Asuma breaking from using the trench knives doesn`t hinder him. He was able ato follow throught Hidan in the battlefield and hand seal an attack in the time it took those metal blades to spin in the air before he grabbed them again. 

No one os calling a one hit k.o here. I just don`t see why people are calling Kimi`s durability that high when Sasuke with Chidori could pierce throught Gaara`s Sand at the time.


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## Olympian (Aug 15, 2013)

Senkou said:


> It's bias. The love for Asuma is high so objectivity is gone. I mean, the argument that hien knives could pierce tree and boulder = hien pierces Kimimaro bone is faulty.



It would be if the argument would be that one, but it isn`t. The argument is when the comparasion with Samurai swords/Sasuke`s Chidori come in and that pencil thrown at Kisame when he claimed that was "sharper than Futton". 

Except Hien having a much better example to draw from. 



Senkou said:


> Kimi is the same dude who got trapped under Gaara's sand and still wasn't crushed. Without checking, the imperial funeral correct? Which is supposed to be a nuked version of the basic sand funeral. Yet Kimi was still able to break free and almost deal a death blow that even the insta-defense couldn't predict. How many have _not_ been crushed when sand trapped?.



Yeah. And Gaara`s Sand was pierced throught Chidori. 



Senkou said:


> I don't even see a reason for Kimi to use CS2 or even CS1. A healthy base Kimi imo, could take Asuma out. Push come to shove, going CS1 to counter the effects of the ash fire. (Ie: accelerated healing x2).



He will need CS2. 



Senkou said:


> Asuma never displayed Lee speed either. Possibly the slowest of all Akatsuki being able to strike him (Hidan). Kisame able to force a block out of Asuma without really trying. (Judging from later kisame combat, he likely wasn't trying much)..



Guess who couldn`t hit Hidan either even when Kazuku wasn`t interfering, even with Sharingan. Guess who blitzed throught Post training Sasuke (and post stadium fight) and Naruto at the rooftop.

Kisame didn`t blocked anything, by the way, Asuma did. 



Senkou said:


> Hyperbole aside. Kimi takes Asuma in moderate difficulty combat. There is no edge to Asuma, no x-factor. Unlike Kimi whom has kekkei genkai and CS.



His x-factor is a Futton sharper than highly praised Raiton that was > futton, appearantly.


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## Axiom (Aug 15, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Dear god, I just don't know what to say.
> 
> If you think Asuma's chakra blades are strong enough to damage Kimimaro's durable bones when Gaara used all the sand in the area to crush him and he still managed to nearly kill Gaara, then I don't know what to say.



Maybe you'll know what to say when you learn the difference between pressure damage and piercing damage 

Oh, and the Lee that fought Kimi was noted by Gaara to be slower and less agile than Chuunin Exam Prelims Lee.  There's no way he was faster than Asuma, even in the first gate.  Even by the time of the 3rd DB, they still had even speed stats in the DB.  But I think Lee would have to go at least 3rd gate at the time of the Chuunin Prelims to get faster than Asuma (which, he wouldn't be able to blitz Asuma even in the 5th gate, but he would be the faster of the two).  And the Lee we're talking about was slower than Chuunin Prelims Lee.

It doesn't really make sense to cite Lee's training of taijutsu and speed, because Asuma more or less specialized in CQC himself, but this was a guy whose experienced dwarfed Lee's incomparably.  Even with all the time Lee had spent training to fight up close, Asuma had probably spent a similar amount gaining experience, but fighting in the real world on B-Rank, A-Rank, and S-Rank missions as he did would be a more effective way of honing his combat skills.  So regardless of who has the more effective CQC style (which is debatable, as Asuma has more range with his full Hien), Asuma would no doubt baby shake pre-skip Lee any way you shake it.

That's not too relevant to this match-up, but it was brought up earlier and needed to be addressed.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Olympian said:


> What Hidan does is transfer the pain. What Asuma had (and that was a smaller Katon) wasn`t "superficial burns".
> 
> How can you tell it gave Chouza a tummy ache?
> 
> ...



I agree with you on some level but sorry how on earth is chouza metal armour more durable than kimi ??? That I disagree with . Am not calling a 1 hit K.O here either but like I said SnM tips the scales . Asuma wind range jutsu has no note able speed and asuma Katon like I said only gave Hidan surface burns. Cs2 wing tanked Katon and c2 dragon kimi has been directly stated by jugo himself that kimi can use cs2 as well as sasuke. So we know cs2 makes a ninja more durable add that to kimi durability and you'll see why asuma range jutsu won't kill kimi 


However like I said SnM which asuma can't dodge . Also if hien is so obviously dangerous to you dont you think kimi would notice the danger and try to stay away ?? I don't believe hien can slice kimi though considering asuma would be more at risk. Would you stand there to cut someone with a sharper knife when someone is spinning at you with 20+ knives ?

Lets not forget vine range is greater than hien so if you agree asuma can't 1 shot kimi would have learnt his lesson in the first exchange and won't come close again


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> I agree with you on some level but sorry how on earth is chouza metal armour more durable than kimi ??? That I disagree with . Am not calling a 1 hit K.O here either but like I said SnM tips the scales . Asuma wind range jutsu has no note able speed and asuma Katon like I said only gave Hidan surface burns. Cs2 wing tanked Katon and c2 dragon kimi has been directly stated by jugo himself that kimi can use cs2 as well as sasuke. So we know cs2 makes a ninja more durable add that to kimi durability and you'll see why asuma range jutsu won't kill kimi
> 
> However like I said SnM which asuma can't dodge . Also if hien is so obviously dangerous to you dont you think kimi would notice the danger and try to stay away ?? I don't believe hien can slice kimi though considering asuma would be more at risk. Would you stand there to cut someone with a sharper knife when someone is spinning at you with 20+ knives ?
> 
> Lets not forget vine range is greater than hien so if you agree asuma can't 1 shot kimi would have learnt his lesson in the first exchange and won't come close again





Of course Asuma can dodge SnM. He has better reaction speed than Gaara had, and Kimimaro can't make it so the bones appear under Asuma's feet since the beginning. The bones move from near Kimimaro's position to where the enemy is. Asuma is faster than the expansion speed of the SnM.


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Of course Asuma can dodge SnM. He has better reaction speed than Gaara had, and Kimimaro can't make it so the bones appear under Asuma's feet since the beginning. The bones move from near Kimimaro's position to where the enemy is. Asuma is faster than the expansion speed of the SnM.



And you know this how ???
Again I never said people can't react to it or even claimed it was fast .
Kimi can decide where he wants the attack to originate from read chapter 585 page 6
If the attack originated from kimi location the attack would have to have gone through Amaterasu which it can't. So kabuto decided to originate the attack between the bros and Amaterasu 

Gaara can levitate for god sake that allowed him to avoid the attack not defeat it!!

Where is asuma supposed to jump to? If he stands there and tries to cut it with his blades he would get overwhelmed because eventually some will appear behind him at which point kimi stabs him from the back killing him . Kimi only needs 1 bone to appear behind asuma while asuma is relentelessly trying to cut a 1000 or so bones coming at him . That's why SnM kills asuma not because he can't react to it, not because it's fast but because it would overwhelm
Him. Same reason gaara sand tsunami kills asuma not because of speed but because it would overwhelm him. Asuma range techs are useless against SnM and are in fact a bad option

The wind tech has a limited AoE and has nothing to suggest it cuts the bones . Katon would merely char the bones


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> And you know this how ???
> Again I never said people can't react to it or even claimed it was fast .
> Kimi can decide where he wants the attack to originate from read chapter 585 page 6
> If the attack originated from kimi location the attack would have to have gone through Amaterasu which it can't. So kabuto decided to originate the attack between the bros and Amaterasu



Asuma is faster than Kurenai, who is faster than Neji, who is faster in reflex than Lee, who is faster than Kimimaro even after being operated.

In the chapter 585 page 6, Kabuto creates the MnS that doesn't appear under Sasuke and Itachi's feet, It has to expand from It's initial position near where Kimimaro put his hands, to where the bros where.



Icegaze said:


> Where is asuma supposed to jump to?


Jump? Why the F should he jump?
He can run away or make a semi circle around Kimimaro's position till Kimimaro is out of chakra make so many bones...



Icegaze said:


> The wind tech has a limited AoE and has nothing to suggest it cuts the bones . Katon would merely char the bones



And this all happens if Asuma doesn't simply shunshin to where Kimimaro is and cut his head from the very beginning.


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## The World (Aug 16, 2013)

You honestly have nothing to base that off of


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

The World said:


> You honestly have nothing to base that off of



Asuma being faster than Kimimaro?

It's easy to prove that. Kimimaro was slower than post operated genin Lee. Just based on that Asuma is faster.


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## The World (Aug 16, 2013)

Wut? 

Kimi was not slower than Lee, his drunken fighting style was too unpredictable and Kimi couldn't read his movements


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

leave him alone he is trolling. A>B>C doesnt apply to naruto. He thinks this is DBZ

same way being faster doesnt make you better at CQC like i have explained to the poor kid several times. Ei is faster than gai does that mean gai dies in CQC
lee is faster than neji does that mean lee can drop punches on neji without neji being able to do squat ?
in fact in that case neji trolls lee.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 16, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Of course Asuma can dodge SnM. He has better reaction speed than Gaara had, and Kimimaro can't make it so the bones appear under Asuma's feet since the beginning. The bones move from near Kimimaro's position to where the enemy is. Asuma is faster than the expansion speed of the SnM.




Are you really implying that Asuma can "outrun" this jutsu?

The bones begin to emerge slow, but once the jutsu gets going, it takes over the landscape rather quickly. Kimimaro blanketed he entire battlefield in seconds; there was literally nothing but bones as far as the eye could see. Hell, when he activated the technique not only was he at least a couple hundred yards away from Gaara amd Lee, nut he was buried quite a ways down under his sand too. Gaara has shown to get around pretty well on his sand, so I don't see how Asuma is leagues above him in getting from point A to point B.

He's getting tangled up in that, whether he likes it or not. He can avoid being impaled, but he absolutely will NOT be on the outside of this jutsu when it ends.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

The World said:


> Wut?
> 
> Kimi was not slower than Lee, his drunken fighting style was too unpredictable and Kimi couldn't read his movements



Kimi was able to move as fast a Lee? 

Kimi could react to Lee, but he couldn't move as fast as him 



Icegaze said:


> leave him alone he is trolling. A>B>C doesnt apply to naruto. He thinks this is DBZ
> 
> same way being faster doesnt make you better at CQC like i have explained to the poor kid several times. Ei is faster than gai does that mean gai dies in CQC
> lee is faster than neji does that mean lee can drop punches on neji without neji being able to do squat ?
> in fact in that case neji trolls lee.



Good example the one of Neji, in fact Kimimaro showed to be Neji's speed, part I Neji's speed, which every named jounin surpassed, they even blitzed him.

Also yes, *if* you think that the Raikage is faster than Gai, and as he has more durability, and strength than Gai, he should win agaisnt him in CQC.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> Are you really implying that Asuma can "outrun" this jutsu?
> 
> The bones begin to emerge slow, but once the jutsu gets going, it takes over the landscape rather quickly. Kimimaro blanketed he entire battlefield in seconds; there was literally nothing but bones as far as the eye could see. Hell, when he activated the technique not only was he at least a couple hundred yards away from Gaara amd Lee, nut he was buried quite a ways down under his sand too. Gaara has shown to get around pretty well on his sand, so I don't see how Asuma is leagues above him in getting from point A to point B.
> 
> He's getting tangled up in that, whether he likes it or not. He can avoid being impaled, but he absolutely will NOT be on the outside of this jutsu when it ends.



How far could eye see? It covered a few dozens of meters.

And as seen when Kabuto used it the progression of the technique isn't specially fast


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> How far could eye see? It covered a few dozens of meters.
> 
> And as seen when Kabuto used it the progression of the technique isn't specially fast



yh its sooo slow and weak hence why itachi used susanoo on it instead of jumping over it and throwing a kunai. 

reacting to lee doesnt suddenly make kimi lee speed, jesus you argue like a fish

asuma cut kisame with hien. Killer bee before his kisame fight showed he had alot and i mean alot more speed than asuma. Yet killer bee didnt outright blitz kisame. He didnt even blitz him. Despite kisame being a tie with asuma speed wise in CQC.


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## Olympian (Aug 16, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> I agree with you on some level but sorry how on earth is chouza metal armour more durable than kimi ??? That I disagree with



I am not saying it is, mind you. I am saying that giant Choja is a different beast than normal base Choja, therefore the durability may be different as well.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> yh its sooo slow and weak hence why itachi used susanoo on it instead of jumping over it and throwing a kunai.



Over the Amaterasu you mean?



Icegaze said:


> reacting to lee doesnt suddenly make kimi lee speed, jesus you argue like a fish
> 
> asuma cut kisame with hien. Killer bee before his kisame fight showed he had alot and i mean alot more speed than asuma. Yet killer bee didnt outright blitz kisame. He didnt even blitz him. Despite kisame being a tie with asuma speed wise in CQC.



Bee couldn't go all out against Kisame because Kisame was absorbing his chakra and because his master was in the battlefield


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Over the Amaterasu you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> Bee couldn't go all out against Kisame because Kisame was absorbing his chakra and because his master was in the battlefield



Your last point made me give up 
Really is that how you argue ?

Bee couldn't go full hachibi because of his master nothing was stated implied or anything of the sort that bee wasn't fighting at full speed 

If itachi can jump over the bones *with Mei Kage level jump* he can jump over Amaterasu it's not like it was 100 m high or something 

itachi also has the feat of being able to jump all the way up to a flying bird. So its not like he cant jump. so then why didnt he jump you seem to think its such a good option 

You are about the weakest debater i know. Jumping over a random popping bone technique. 

*Let me state this clearly no ninja in their right mind would risk jumping over it when they have no idea if it wont grow where they are about to land. *

like you always forget jumping over it doesnt defeat the technique. it only helps kimimaro kill you. 


@olympian i agree giant chouza would be more durable. But are you suggesting he is more durable than kimimaro?? because i was very clearly stating that chouza tanked ash pile so i have no reason to believe it would kill or incapacitate kimi. chouza kept on fighting. 

what do you think about jumping over SnM it seems to be the kid argument.  please note itachi didnt  jump over it despite being able to jump. I guess maybe if itachi was a kage he might get his kage jump. Who knows


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 16, 2013)

Asuma's chances slim here, I don't think he can outperform Kimi in CQC. Statistically they are about even(kimi having the edge in taijutsu prowess) but Kimi can dish out stronger offense and defense.

And sadly Asuma's ash and fuuton jutsu will be avoided easily by Kimimaro.


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Asuma's chances slim here, I don't think he can outperform Kimi in CQC. Statistically they are about even(kimi having the edge in taijutsu prowess) but Kimi can dish out stronger offense and defense.
> 
> And sadly Asuma's ash and fuuton jutsu will be avoided easily by Kimimaro.



i am simply quoting you to show some people that i am not the only one who thinks kimi wins. 

however some believe asuma jounin status makes him sooooo much faster than kimi that he can lol blitz and cut his head off. Despite the manga never even implying such or any battles in the manga showing such. btw there have been many many battles in the 600+ chapters yet you dont see a faster opponent simply lol blitz a slower one. 

like i said best example of such has been 30% kisame against 6th gate gai. though gai kicked him before kisame sword reached gai, the fact is that despite kisame being a whole lot slower he still could react. I have given some people far too many examples. already. They dont listen. 

I think kimi takes this more times than not. And like i keep saying worst comes to worst SnM
its kimimaro gates and kimimaro kamui. that technique clearly puts this in his favor if it wasnt already


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

solarthermal said:


> I agree that Kimi is on a slightly higher level, but I think people underestimate Asuma a lot.  His futon chakra blade is pretty much unstoppable.  I see no reason it can't cut through a bone, even if that bone is harder than steel.



i agree with you. Yes i do underestimate him a little. however ask yourself this. Would asuma attempt cutting kimi bones when kimi has 20 plus huge cs2 bones spinning at him??
 he could succeed or not, however if those huge bone protrusions hit asuma. Even if its in the leg asuma would be fighting a loosing battle from there. 

So yes hien is actually the biggest threat and i believe the second kimi notices his bones are being cut through or anything of the sort he is going to use his 4th dance, if that fails his 5th. Which would end it 

This is how i see the fight going. 

Asuma runs towards cs2 kimi, kimi uses 3rd dance  in some acrobatic fashion or not. Either way his continous spinning added with his 20+ or even 30+ bones will surely either hit asuma or asuma jumps back to prevent being hit. It would be something reminiscent of killer bee 7 sword style against sasuke.  Hien being sharper or not wont be landing any decisive hits when kimi is spinning like that. 

Anywayz moving on, kimi tails gets cut through in the process..maybe maybe not. 

in any case from there kimi knows not to come close. He will use vine and i believe asuma cuts through it. At which point SnM comes out to play and if asuma was running towards kimi after cutting the vine asuma is in for a wicked surprise. 

My interpretation however i think more than half the people who have posted on this thread would agree


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## Bonly (Aug 17, 2013)

Kimi's bones in base were strong enough to clash with chakra enhanced swords, which has been shown to clash evenly with a Raiton sword, and not break entirely. While Futon is suppose to have more cutting power, I doubt Hien has much more to suggest it would do greatly better and with the power boost of the curse seal, Kimi's bones should do decent against Hein. With the regen Kimi has nothing Asuma do will be able to put Kimi down really, unless Asuma gives a clean cut that cuts Kimi in half of something of the sorts, Kimi can regen. With Kimi being better at CQC as well as good regen along with my opinion that Kimi is on a higher level then Asuma(Kimi= Low Kage level, Asuma=high Jounin level), I'd favor Kimi more times then not.


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## genii96 (Aug 17, 2013)

Kimimaro can beat asuma withut really needing to go cs2.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 17, 2013)

^ Yeah.

 Kimimaro is just incredibly fast and he was even when he was sick.


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## Punished Pathos (Aug 18, 2013)

Asuma can' do anything against Kimimaro.
Asuma can trade blows but Kimimaro can attack as he defends with his bones.
I don't understand why people down Kimimaro.
Kakashi himself said there were people younger than him who were stronger than him (part 1)
Kimimaro slew tons of adults at a young age.
He was a natural prodigy.
How can Asuma answer Kimimaro's speed and durability?
The guy was on his deathbed and he exhausted a Jinchuriki Gaara.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 18, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Asuma can' do anything against Kimimaro.
> Asuma can trade blows but Kimimaro can attack as he defends with his bones.
> I don't understand why people down Kimimaro.
> Kakashi himself said there were people younger than him who were stronger than him (part 1)
> ...





You should try reading the manga instead of relying on anime feats.

Kimimaro didn't kill a single adult.

Kimimaro's speed is lower than post operated 13 years old Lee.

Kimimaro's durability only allowed him to survive hits from a young Gaara and fodder samurais.

Anime Kimimaro, the one that fought the Kazekage and would have assured Orochimaru's invasion of Konoha >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manga Kimimaro that couldn't kill part I Gaara, Naruto and post operated Lee.


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> You should try reading the manga instead of relying on anime feats.
> 
> Kimimaro didn't kill a single adult.
> 
> ...



Because Hidan the guy who asuma said is on a completely different level can kill gaara


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Because Hidan the guy who asuma said is on a completely different level can kill gaara



   

So Kimimaro is Akatsuki level in your opinion?

No, 11 years old Gaara is Akatsuki level in your opinion?


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## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

Hidan would fodderize SRA Gaara whichever way he sees fit.  Hidan's too acrobatic and Gaara's sand shield is too slow to prevent him from getting scratched.  It's not really that hard a fight for Hidan >.>


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## Olympian (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Because Hidan the guy who asuma said is on a completely different level can kill gaara



The Gaara that fought Kimimaro? Yeah, he would. That Gaara was_ slow_ for Akatsuki level, no questions asked. Hidan was clashing blades with Sharingan without any range game. And in the slim chance he catches Hidan up (he wouldn`t) it`s not like he could kill him.


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> So Kimimaro is Akatsuki level in your opinion?
> 
> No, 11 years old Gaara is Akatsuki level in your opinion?



Some people believe itachi defeated Orochimaru at eleven.  That is at least as absurd.   So, by that logic age is insignificant.
S rank is what I believe you are looking for.


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Hidan would fodderize SRA Gaara whichever way he sees fit.  Hidan's too acrobatic and Gaara's sand shield is too slow to prevent him from getting scratched.  It's not really that hard a fight for Hidan >.>



 
how does his acrobatics help him get gaara blood?
gaara sand armor has tanked 5th gate lee high combo attack
and kimimaro bones which are both denser and harder than hidan scythe which is designed to merely scartch and you guys somehow think he is going to get gaara blood? 

gaara would murderstop him and bury him in sand no issues there. Hidan is a 3.5 in speed kimimaro according to kishi is faster and just as acrobatic. Being akatsuki doesnt suddenly make him immune to being beat by someone well suited to beat him. 

hidan is akatsuki doesnt stop EI from lol rapping him because Ei is well suited to kill him. 

People like to use hype and other BS forgetting that its how ablities clash that determines the winner. onoki is Ei level yet sasuke can lol amaterasu rape him, while the same tactic wont work against Ei

truth is hidan cannot get gaara blood or even hurt gaara, so how on earth would he win??

hidan isnt immune to being crushed!!! his body is just as durable as anyone elses. proof he can get stabbed with kunai, like anyone else. 
 he uses a jutsu which allows him to be immortal and share his pain with others. His bones are made of steal or anything. Nothing stops gaara from crushing him like he would anyone else he catches. 

Hidan cannot avoid tsbaku taiso.....kimimaro is faster and failed to do so.  You all want to argue with kishi?? tell me when kishi DB specific stats have been proven wrong in the manga. Who has he given a 5 showing they are fast just for the same fast person to be getting lol blitz by someone slower


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## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

Hidan was capable of going toe to toe with Kakashi in CQC and completely tanked Fuuton: Atsugai.  Gaara's sand armor can't tank a scythe as sharp as Hidan's; he has no feats of tanking anything sharp.  Only time he was ever hit by something sharp, it was Chidori and he got pierced.

But there's no point in sitting around and arguing this topic so I figure I'll make a thread about this and see what the public thinks.


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Hidan was capable of going toe to toe with Kakashi in CQC and completely tanked Fuuton: Atsugai.  Gaara's sand armor can't tank a scythe as sharp as Hidan's; he has no feats of tanking anything sharp.  Only time he was ever hit by something sharp, it was Chidori and he got pierced.
> 
> But there's no point in sitting around and arguing this topic so I figure I'll make a thread about this and see what the public thinks.



How is his scythe unusually sharp?
Did he invent lasers and then use them to sharpen the edge to a few atoms thick?


----------



## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

It's less to do with the particular sharpness of the scythe and more to do with the inability of Gaara to tank anything sharp.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Axiom said:


> It's less to do with the particular sharpness of the scythe and more to do with the inability of Gaara to tank anything sharp.



Why can't hardened sand tank sharp objects?
People throw kunai and shuriken at his sand, and he doesn't even flinch.

I agree Gaara loses, but because Hidan is too fast and uses his speed to attack around the sand.  Sort of like Lee did in the chunin exams.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

I'm not referring to a hardened, dense ball of defensive sand.  I'm referring to the sand armor he keeps around him passively at times, which Lee and Kimi were both capable of breaking, and which has no feats of tanking anything sharp.

I agree that he would bypass the sand shield, and if Gaara was wearing sand armor, Hidan would pierce straight through it.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Ok, yah then we agree.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

What does SRA Gaara stand for? The one who fought Kimimaro?

 Honestly, I can see Gaara raping Hidan with Sand Tsunami, but without that, Hidan would most likely beat him.

 @Axiom

 Totally agreed. Main reason Sasuke did so well against Gaara compared to Lee even though it was stated he was slower.

 As for Kimimaro, he'd most likely beat Hidan * if he knows Hidan's ability. *


----------



## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

SRA stands for Sasuke Retrieval Arc, which is indeed the arc in which Gaara fought Kimi.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

gaara sand armor has already tanked something sharper than hidan scythe 
kimimaro cs2 bones. gaara didnt even bleed. 

how is hidan too fast????? what makes him too fast? kimimaro is faster as for DB stats and just as acrobatic
however acrobatics dont help you avoid a sand tsumami 

if gaara litters the field with sand, hidan is going to be walking on sand. He will get crushed. 

people only think hidan win because of his title as an akatsuki member which means nothing 

if gaara levitates, being akatsuki wont help hidan touch him would it ?


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> gaara sand armor has already tanked something sharper than hidan scythe
> kimimaro cs2 bones. gaara didnt even bleed.
> 
> how is hidan too fast????? what makes him too fast? kimimaro is faster as for DB stats and just as acrobatic
> ...



By this logic, then Gaara solo's the whole narutoverse at 13.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> By this logic, then Gaara solo's the whole narutoverse at 13.



wait so hidan can be compared to the whole of naruto verse?? since when 
deidara stomps him, Ei does, kakashi does and a bunch of other people. Because guess what they can get through gaara sand armor and hidan cant 

the way NF people argue shocks me. how does hidan title help him scratch gaara?? since when was his scythe sharper than kimi bones?


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> wait so hidan can be compared to the whole of naruto verse?? since when
> deidara stomps him, Ei does, kakashi does and a bunch of other people. Because guess what they can get through gaara sand armor and hidan cant
> 
> the way NF people argue shocks me. how does hidan title help him scratch gaara?? since when was his scythe sharper than kimi bones?



Unless they learn to fly they don't.
Also, Deidara only won due to the location.  Gaara stomps if he doesn't have to protect the whole village from annihilation.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> Some people believe itachi defeated Orochimaru at eleven.  That is at least as absurd.   So, by that logic age is insignificant.
> S rank is what I believe you are looking for.


Kishimoto's timeline being "absurd" doesn't change the fact that Kishimoto's timeline is canon. And it's canon that Itachi beat Orochimaru when he was 10-11 years old. I can bring up the supporting manga panels and Databook entries, but I honestly don't think you care to read them since I've already shown them.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Kishimoto's timeline being "absurd" doesn't change the fact that Kishimoto's timeline is canon. And it's canon that Itachi beat Orochimaru when he was 10-11 years old. I can bring up the supporting manga panels and Databook entries, but I honestly don't think you care to read them since I've already shown them.



There are no supporting manga panels.  There is an incorrect age written by an intern in the Databook.
The manga, and even anime, clearly denotes he is over 13.  Most probably around 16.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

Deidara won simply because he could break through the Sand Armor.

 Same as how Sasuke beat Deidara because Lightning beats Earth.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> There are no supporting manga panels.  There is an incorrect age written by an intern in the Databook.
> The manga, and even anime, clearly denotes he is over 13.  Most probably around 16.


Okay, then by all means if you know the stated age on not one, but TWO Kishimoto published Databooks are incorrect, by all means please post the correct age Itachi was in Part 1 and 2.

Don't forget to post the sources.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Okay, then by all means if you know the stated age on not one, but TWO Kishimoto published Databooks are incorrect, by all means please post the correct age Itachi was in Part 1 and 2.
> 
> Don't forget to post the sources.


Copied and pasted errors are very common from one edition to the next.

I can, but it would be pointless.
One source isn't superior to another, and it won't change your mind.  You will go on believing whatever you want.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> Copied and pasted errors are very common from one edition to the next.
> 
> I can, but it would be pointless.
> One source isn't superior to another, and it won't change your mind.  You will go on believing whatever you want.


Um, yeah, a credible source would in fact change my mind. Now post it.

Databook 1 says Itachi is 17 and Databook 3 (three years later) say he is 21. Both sources have roughly matching ages. I haven't checked Databook 2 but I would assume it's the same as Databook 1.

Unless you have a different source canonized by Kishimoto?


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Um, yeah, a credible source would in fact change my mind. Now post it.
> 
> Databook 1 says Itachi is 17 and Databook 3 (three years later) say he is 21. Both sources have roughly matching ages. I haven't checked Databook 2 but I would assume it's the same as Databook 1.
> 
> Unless you have a different source canonized by Kishimoto?


Again, errors within various editions is common.  Heck,even if they caught the error in DB one, do you think they would have corrected it in DB 2?  These aren't different editions, but different books.  The inconsistency would cause a shit storm.  Thus, the DB is still only 1 source, regardless of however many they make.

Yah, it is called the manga and anime.
2 sources, and don't say he isn't involved in the anime.  Even, if you did that is still 1 source v/s another.

It won't change your mind, so its pointless.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> Again, errors within various editions is common.  Heck,even if they caught the error in DB one, do you think they would have corrected it in DB 2?  These aren't different editions, but different books.  The inconsistency would cause a shit storm.  Thus, the DB is still only 1 source, regardless of however many they make.
> 
> Yah, it is called the manga and anime.
> 2 sources, and don't say he isn't involved in the anime.  Even, if you did that is still 1 source v/s another.
> ...


If you have a source, post it so we can stop going around in circles. Preferably the manga one that mentions that Itachi is 16 when he defeats Orochimaru as you say.

Post the anime one as well if you want, but don't just blindly assert shit out of your ass and then call me close-minded for not sniffing it.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> If you have a source, post it so we can stop going around in circles. Preferably the manga one that mentions that Itachi is 16 when he defeats Orochimaru as you say.
> 
> Post the anime one as well if you want, but don't just blindly assert shit out of your ass and then call me close-minded for not sniffing it.


Look how hostile you are just for me mentioning this, and you say you are open minded?  Ha!

If you were anywhere near as open as you claim, then you would have already looked at the panels and saw the error right off the bat.  It is pretty easy to spot, and there is much more evidence than that.

Here is a big hint, how many 11 year olds are nearly 6 feet tall, and don't grow an inch in 10 years?
The correct answer is zero.

That alone should be more than enough to convince you it is wrong, especially on 2 mediums.  Regardless, there is other evidence as well that points to the same conclusion.  It is pointless though, as you will go on assuming the DB is infallible no matter how much evidence is presented.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

Itachi definitely does not look like an 11 year old in that scan.  He looks just a little bit shorter than Oro by my naked eye judgment.

More importantly, Itachi was made leader of ANBU at age 13.  It is later stated that he joined Akatsuki after leaving the village, which obviously makes sense, because how the fuck could Itachi be in Akatsuki and in ANBU simultaneously?  So according to those scans, Itachi would have had to have been older than 13, let alone 11.  Probably closer to 16.  Not to mention, the DB has Itachi being promoted to a Chuunin at age 10, so in order for Itachi defeating Oro at age 11 to be true, all of the following would also have to be true:

Itachi became a Chuunin at age 10.  Around this time, he joined Akatsuki and drove off Orochimaru.  Two years later, while still in Akatsuki, he became the leader of ANBU, and afterwards, he slaughtered the clan, while still in Akatsuki.  He joined Akatsuki 3 years in advance... why?

Let's not be silly.  Itachi wasn't 11 when he defeated Oro, regardless of the screw-up of his age in the DB >.>


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> Look how hostile you are just for me mentioning this, and you say you are open minded?  Ha!
> 
> If you were anywhere near as open as you claim, then you would have already looked at the panels and saw the error right off the bat.  It is pretty easy to spot, and there is much more evidence than that.
> 
> ...


Itachi was never 6 feet tall. Even in the real world there are people who develop insanely early. 

And your argument apparently seems to boil down to "he doesn't look 11, so he must not be." 

This subjective viewing you have on age is *not *admissible as evidence. The only person hardheadedly ignoring and rejecting the canon evidence is you. 

 is my previous post on the subject using both the objective Databook sources and the objective manga panels to prove a point. Nowhere do I subjectively say "Itachi looks like he should be ABC..." That does not help in proving a point. Respond back when you have some objective proof, plz.

Don't respond otherwise.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Like I said, this discussion is pointless.  You can't defeat illogical notions with logic.  Your mind was made up before any point was ever made.
If you think the Databook is infallible, then you will just keep posting arrogantly post smilies, while believing you are right, and ignoring all evidence.

This Itachi following is like a religious cult, and saying Itachi didn't beat Orochimaru at 11 is blasphemy.



Axiom said:


> Itachi definitely does not look like an 11 year old in that scan.  He looks just a little bit shorter than Oro by my naked eye judgment.
> 
> More importantly, Itachi was made leader of ANBU at age 13.  It is later stated that he joined Akatsuki after leaving the village, which obviously makes sense, because how the fuck could Itachi be in Akatsuki and in ANBU simultaneously?  So according to those scans, Itachi would have had to have been older than 13, let alone 11.  Probably closer to 16.  Not to mention, the DB has Itachi being promoted to a Chuunin at age 10, so in order for Itachi defeating Oro at age 11 to be true, all of the following would also have to be true:
> 
> ...



Wow, thank you.  
I didn't want to be bothered looking up all those panels, because I knew it wouldn't matter.   Buy ya, well said!

I mean you would think the sheer idea that an 11 year old chunin beating a Kage level opponent would suffice.
The mere thought of that is so absurd that it should throw up a thousand red flags.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

He brought up proof though obviously Kishi really messed up.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 19, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Itachi definitely does not look like an 11 year old in that scan.  He looks just a little bit shorter than Oro by my naked eye judgment.
> 
> More importantly, Itachi was made leader of ANBU at age 13.  It is later stated that he joined Akatsuki after leaving the village, which obviously makes sense, because how the fuck could Itachi be in Akatsuki and in ANBU simultaneously?  So according to those scans, Itachi would have had to have been older than 13, let alone 11.  Probably closer to 16.  Not to mention, the DB has Itachi being promoted to a Chuunin at age 10, so in order for Itachi defeating Oro at age 11 to be true, all of the following would also have to be true:
> 
> ...


I'm going to thank and rep you Axiom, for at least attempting to back up your point of view with verifiable evidence canonized by Kishimoto.

The problem of course, is that despite your evidence you still rely too much on a subjective interpretation of the data presented. We do not know if Tobi's list of Itachi's deeds are in fact chronologically ordered; though it would not be foolish to assume so it remains just that--an assumption.

Another assumption is that Itachi could not have been part of Akatsuki and Anbu at the same time. Even in the real world, sleeper agents exist, and we know Danzo, who Itachi worked with, is no stranger to undercover operations. The idea is not impoosible, simply improbable to you.

But note this great quote from Sherlock Holmes: "When you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

So let's take a look at our objective evidence, hmm?

We *objectively *know that Orochimaru left Akatsuki 7 years before Part 1 and 10 years before Part 2. This is *objective *evidence, you cannot argue it, only accept it or reject it outright.

Next, the Databook tells us that Itachi is 17 and 21 years old in Parts 1 and 2 respectively.



			
				Databook 1 said:
			
		

> Uchiha Itachi
> Ninja Registration Serial Number: 012110
> Birthday: June 9th (17-years-old, Gemini)
> Height: Unknown Weight: Unknown Blood Type: Unknown
> ...





			
				Databook 3 said:
			
		

> Ninja registration number: 012110
> Birthday: 6/9 (21 years old, Gemini)
> Height: 178.0cm - Weight: 58.0kg - Blood type: AB
> Personality: cares for his brother, self-sacrificing
> ...



This too is objective evidence that cannot be argued, only accepted or rejected outright.

Now, here are our options:

We accept both pieces of evidence, so Itachi must be 10-11 years old.
We reject the manga evidence and say that Orochimaru's leaving event happened sooner, but this requires us to reject 2 pieces of manga canon and gives us no real idea how much sooner. It's a step back.
We reject the Databook evidence and say that Itachi is older than his specified age, but by how much we have no idea. Again, a step back.
We reject both pieces of evidence, which gets us nowhere at all.

I see no reason why we should reject either piece of evidence but having gone through the Itachi timeline fairly extensively though, I can tell you that the one thing that doesn't fit the most is Itachi becoming Anbu captain by 13.

Itachi starts becoming distant half a year after becoming chunin, which is also when he is inducted into Anbu. But interesting to note here is that this is also when Itachi's incredibly secretive missions start, in fact the very induction into Anbu was done off screen after Itachi made sure his father wouldn't attend.

It's entirely possible that Itachi's induction into Anbu could very well have coincided with his induction into Akatsuki, as Kishimoto specifically has Itachi start acting "shady" around this point. It was even pointed out that his actions and patterns changed during this point, up to half a year more from his mysterious induction into Anbu.

If you were paying attention we now have the following bits of information.


Itachi became Chunin at 10
Half a year later, he was Anbu
Half a year more, he "killed" Shisui and soon after his clan.
At this point Itachi is 11 years old, and may have been in Akatsuki for up to half a year, which is when he begins to change.

What's most interesting is that directly before the massacre when Sasuke goes off to train only to find his family dead, he lists off Itachi's achievements. "At 7 he graduated the academy, at 8 he mastered the Sharingan and at 10 he became Chunin" What is interesting is that Sasuke never mentions Itachi becoming ANBU Captain, suggesting that it may not have happened.

This piece of information, combined with the other pieces of information, tell us that the evidence most likely to be false is the statement that Itachi became an ANBU Captain at the age of 13. Every other piece of information seems to point towards Itachi massacring the clan and joining Itachi all by the age of 11.

Just to recap, not only are there the Databook and manga panels I pointed out depicting Itachi to have been 11 at the time, but there's also the "Itachi became Chunin at 10" combined with double "half a year" segments in Sasuke's memories that date the Itachi who killed his clan and joined Akatsuki as an 11 year old.

We can either accept the mountain of evidence and go with the conclusion that Itachi was 11 but may not have been ANBU captain at 13, or we go with Kakashi's statement and ignore every other piece of evidence I presented. 

I'd say the choice the pretty clear, wouldn't you? As for your subjective ideas on Itachi's height being off, Kishimoto himself has said that he is bad at expressing ages in his characters. The Itachi that defeated Orochimaru looked almost older than the Itachi who trounced Kakashi in Part 1, but we can't use that as an argument to say that the Part 1 Itachi was younger, can we? No, that's a subjective argument, and a flawed one at that, especially where height is concerned.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 19, 2013)

^ Nice job tackling this case. You're a genius.

 Major reps should be given to this guy.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 19, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> I'm going to thank and rep you Axiom, for at least attempting to back up your point of view with verifiable evidence canonized by Kishimoto.
> 
> The problem of course, is that despite your evidence you still rely too much on a subjective interpretation of the data presented. We do not know if Tobi's list of Itachi's deeds are in fact chronologically ordered; though it would not be foolish to assume so it remains just that--an assumption.
> 
> ...



The only evidence you have is the DB for 11.
Itachi's entire timeline has to be butchered to make that age fit.

The DB is not infallible.
The DB being more simplistic in this case is not an advantage, but a disadvantage as there are no other references verifying that age.  Thus, the logical decision would be to assume the DB is wrong.

"We reject the Databook evidence and say that Itachi is older than his specified age, but by how much we have no idea.* Again, a step back*."
So it is wrong, because we know less than we thought we did?  That is utter nonsense.



NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Nice job tackling this case. You're a genius.
> 
> Major reps should be given to this guy.



The only praise he deserves is chuckles for illogical thinking.

The only evidence he has is that DB age.  His whole argument is based around that.  He even goes as far as to rewrite the story, and claim the manga/anime, is false just to make his timeline make an iota of sense.   He is telling us the DB is infallible, and then goes and says the manga and anime are wrong!


----------



## Cryogonal (Aug 19, 2013)

How is Itachi connected in this fight?


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 19, 2013)

If the manga says that Itachi was 13 years old, and the datafail says that he was 11 years old, guess which one is right.

Btw lol at SRA Gaara being able to defeat an Akatsuki.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 19, 2013)

The manga and databook agree about Itachi's age. The only disagreement is from people who think that it doesn't make sense that Itachi was 11 and still a member of ANBU while in Akatsuki and say "he doesn't look that young!" That's just individuals, once again simply thinking that whatever they happen to _think_ about the manga represents the manga itself, and thus overrules the databook.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 19, 2013)

Itachi at 12-13 years old was nearly as tall as his father anyways.


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## Axiom (Aug 19, 2013)

Given the choice between:

Kakashi was right, Obito meant chronologically, and the DB was wrong

OR

Kakashi was right, Obito did not mean chronologically, Itachi was actually in ANBU and Akatsuki at the same time (and apparently was in ANBU for approximately 2 years after the Uchiha massacre?), and DB was right

OR

Kakashi made some shit up, Obito may or may not have meant chronologically, and DB was right

I tend to lean towards the first option.  The first databook referred to Hiruzen as the strongest Hokage the leaf had ever had, but I'm not exactly waiting with bated breath to see him break out techniques that surpass Hashirama and take Hashirama's title of "God of Shinobi."  And I don't believe I need to explain the relevance of that title in this discussion about Databook errors, Hiruzen, and retcons.

The databook can be erroneous; I choose to believe it was in this case because I don't believe Itachi had any motive to join Akatsuki at this point in time.  He joined Akatsuki to protect the Leaf and to portray himself as a villain, further ensuring that Sasuke would pursue revenge.  Neither of those really apply to 11 year old Itachi.

Sleeper agents DO exist, but there's never been any real reason to believe Itachi was one, other than holding the DB as gospel.  But again, if the first DB said Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage, I'm more than willing to disbelieve its age for Itachi.  The Sherlock Holmes quote is great and all, but I'm not about to dismiss the DB being wrong as impossible, or even any more improbable than Obito's statement not being chronological, or Kakashi's statement not being true, or Itachi being a double agent in Konoha while in Akatsuki.  And defeating Oro at age 11.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 19, 2013)

But like I pointed out, that's not the only piece of manga evidence.

Sasuke's memories place Itachi to chronologically be 11 years old when the clan is murdered, this can't really be argued. The previous manga pages dating Orochimaru's leaving of Akatsuki therefore coincide perfectly with all 3 databooks on Itachi's age, placing him as 11 years old when he joined Akatsuki.

There's the option to consider:


The Databooks are *correct*
Manga panels referencing Orochimaru's depart from Akatsuki are *correct*
Sasuke's memories chronologically placing Itachi as an 11 year old are *correct*.
Kakashi's statement of heresay is *incorrect*.

OR


Kakashi's statement of heresay is *correct*.
The Databooks are *incorrect*
Manga panels referencing Orochimaru's depart from Akatsuki may or may not be *incorrect*
Sasuke's memories chronologically placing Itachi as an 11 year old are *incorrect*.

That'st the only two ways about it.

NOTE: Obito does *not *have to be wrong either, for Itachi to have done everything at 11 and only after that joined Akatsuki. It is simply *my solitary opinion* that he joined Akatsuki when inducted into ANBU. That said, it does not date anything (simply _order _them) and thus has no bearing on the discussion.

As for Sasuke's memories, I'll link it for you again.


Itachi was 10 when he became Chunin.
Half a year after becoming Chunin he became ANBU.
Half a year after joining ANBU he killed Shisui and subsequently his clan.

10 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 11 

Ergo, Itachi was 11 years old when the massacre happened and he officially joined Akatsuki.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 19, 2013)

But with regards to the last scan you linked, you're making every bit as egregious an assumption as I have been making.  It states that Shisui was told to keep an eye on Itachi because his actions and words _were_ getting stranger within half a year of his joining the ANBU.  It never said that that specific event happened half a year after he joined ANBU; it could have happened 50 years after he joined ANBU, and merely implied that Shisui had been keeping an eye on him for the past 45.5 years.

Obviously that's an extreme example, but the point is at least made.  Shisui could have been spying on Itachi for a prolonged period of time and there's nothing to contradict that.

Anyway, idk why what Kakashi said was "heresay."  The DB places him at 9 years older than Itachi (assuming the DB age given to Itachi is correct.  My interpretation puts the difference at closer to, like, 4, but anyway), and he says Itachi was an ANBU captain at the age of 13, which would make Kakashi 21/22.  Kakashi, if not in ANBU at the time, still had close ties to the organization.  If a 13 y/o prodigy became an ANBU captain, which apparently would be really out of place, it's not at all far-fetched to think Kakashi would hear about it.

But that's just semantics.  The main point is that my theory doesn't have to contradict Sasuke's memories any more than yours has to contradict Obito's ramblings.  Mine contradicts the DB, yours contradicts Kakashi, and there's not much more to it.  I place more faith in Kakashi's words, which I can be more certain actually come from Kishi.


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## Baroxio (Aug 19, 2013)

That point was directly after Shisui's death though, so if you wanted to you could assume that things stayed as they were for another 2 years despite such a time progression never being stated, that is fine. What really gets me is that there is no mention of Itachi becoming captain of Anbu in his flashback, only that he was inducted.

But yeah, I guess we've been derailing the thread enough. It's been a pleasure debating with somebody who actually attempts to back up their opinion rather than blindly asserting it as truth in the most annoyingly hypocritical way ever. 

Long story short, let's just blame Kishimoto. 

Back to the match at hand, Kimimaro defeats Asuma due to his superior skills and defensive ability. Asuma would have to dodge all of Kimimaro's attacks and land a critical hit despite Kimimaro being faster and better at CQC then him. And that assumes that Asuma's Hien can actually cut through Kimimaro's bones, which itself is debatable. 

The most likely to happen I think, is that Kimimaro lands a few hits here and there that accumulate until Asuma's performance begins to drop, at which point Asuma would be open to a critical hit. The reverse happening is unlikely due to Kimimaro's defenses and regenerative power being to strong for anything but a direct critical hit, which isn't going to happen to a healthy, alert Kimimaro.

Kimimaro takes it with moderate to high difficulty.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 20, 2013)

If there's a possibility of datafail or the manga to be wrong, then the one that is wrong is datafail as It is a secondary source whose author is not just Kishimoto.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Aug 20, 2013)

Like really? Kimimaro stomps him with no difficulty at all and he most likely won't even need to use CS1.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 20, 2013)

In fact Kimimaro would stomp even Juubito and Hashirama together.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> That point was directly after Shisui's death though, so if you wanted to you could assume that things stayed as they were for another 2 years despite such a time progression never being stated, that is fine. What really gets me is that there is no mention of Itachi becoming captain of Anbu in his flashback, only that he was inducted.
> 
> But yeah, I guess we've been derailing the thread enough. It's been a pleasure debating with somebody who actually attempts to back up their opinion rather than blindly asserting it as truth in the most annoyingly hypocritical way ever.
> 
> ...


"Long story short, let's just blame Kishimoto.  "
No, lets not blame the author for your incompetence, shall we.

You know one of the 2 is wrong, yet you believe that the preferable option is to assume the author completely screwed up his whole story, rather than to believe that someone, likely not even the author, entered the wrong # into a databook.  

A Databook, a published work that is packed with pulled out of your ass numbers rushed out as fast as possible.  This one number, which could have been as simple as a typo, trumps the entire anime and manga story.  

That is not a difference of opinion, but stupidity.
That is like saying you feel safer with a serial killer, than a cop.  You don't know for certain either of them will do you harm, but if you had to go on a trip with on of them, the safe bet is pretty obvious.

It is the same situation here.  Either you ignorantly rewrite the whole damn story, or you accept that a small error occurred in the databook.  The safe bet is obvious given the dubious nature of the Databooks.


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## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2013)

still with this thread  
once again for the lolz..SnM GG  
and no kid kimimaro cant take juubito and hashirama simply because he can kill asuma. 
have fun being dumb still


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## Tsunami (Aug 27, 2013)

Kimi should win, he is better taijutsu, and Asuma lost to Hidan which Kimi could beat easily


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

Tsunami Dragon said:


> Kimi should win, he is better taijutsu, and Asuma lost to Hidan which Kimi could beat easily



Hidan is low Kage level in speed and taijutsu, and he still has his immortality + ritual.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 27, 2013)

Kimmimaro wins. Don't see any counter Asuma has for bone forest.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Kimmimaro wins. Don't see any counter Asuma has for bone forest.



Stand on a bone?


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## Baroxio (Aug 27, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> "Long story short, let's just blame Kishimoto.  "
> No, lets not blame the author for your incompetence, shall we.
> 
> You know one of the 2 is wrong, yet you believe that the preferable option is to assume the author completely screwed up his whole story, rather than to believe that someone, likely not even the author, entered the wrong # into a databook.
> ...


You're an idiot. 

The manga itself claims that the massacre happened when Itachi was 11.


Itachi was 10 when he became chunin.
Half a year later, he joined Anbu.
Half a year after joining Anbu Shisui was killed and Itachi was forced to kill his clan.

In case you can't understand basic math, 10 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 11. Itachi was 11 when he murdered his clan and subsequently left the village. 

All of the above is 100% manga panel evidence. 

The Databook (which is written by Kishimoto himself you halfwit) verifies this. Manga panels saying that Orochimaru was forced to leave Akatsuki 7 and 10 years respectively before the start of Part 1 and Part 2 of the manga also verify this.

What exactly am I ignoring? 

Enjoy your neg and a trip to my ignore list.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> You're an idiot.
> 
> The manga itself claims that the massacre happened when Itachi was 11.
> 
> ...


Name calling.  Is that what suffices for an argument here?

What I find curious about you is that you keep throwing up manga sources, yet claim the manga is wrong.  

Your are egregiously incorrect it is kind of sad.  
The thing that is really pathetic isn't that you have your facts twisted, but you don't understand the very basics of making an argument.  

Hint:  
We are saying the premise of his age via the DB is incorrect.

So, it doesn't matter how many manga articles you throw up, because you are basing it all from the Databook age.  

Unless, you can prove his age via the manga, which can't be done, then you have no reason to ever show a manga page.


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## Baroxio (Aug 27, 2013)

Do you...not know how to click links, or do you not know how to read? 

Read the fucking links.


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## Baroxio (Aug 27, 2013)

Because johnsuwey is apparently inept at performing the most basic of functions, I'll bring the fucking links to you to read.

*Itachi becomes chunin at 10:


Half a year later, Itachi joins ANBU:




Half a year later, Shisui dies, and subsequently the clan:


10 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 11
Ergo, Itachi is 11 years old at the time of the massacre.*


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

I am glad you at least learned basic arithmetic in school, but your reading comprehension could use some serious work.


Hint:
We are saying the premise of his age via the DB is incorrect.

So, it doesn't matter how many manga articles you throw up, because you are basing it all from the Databook age.  Unless, you can prove his age via the manga, which can't be done, then you have no reason to ever show a manga page.


Too bad they don't teach logic and reasoning in High school as well.


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## Baroxio (Aug 27, 2013)

I just don't even. 

Where did I include the Databook at all in my last post? Where? 

I going to have to stop responding to people on my ignore list because I just can't take such stupidty any longer.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

Wait, do you think the above proves he is eleven?
Reading comprehension is far worse than I thought.

That merely says he started acting weird at 11, and was thus being watched ever since.  Shishui was his friend and mentor, which he learned form for years afterwards.   Likely befriending him at 1st to keep a watch on him.


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## Baroxio (Aug 27, 2013)

This message is hidden because johnsuwey is on your ignore list. 

Ahh, so refreshing.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

The ignorant often hide their heads in the sand when they hear information contrary to their unfounded beliefs.


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## Axiom (Aug 27, 2013)

Well Baroxio was like w/e mang we're derailing the thread so let's just agree to disagree BUT this has been rehashed so I just wanna get one last word in with regards to Shisui and Itachi:

Shisui was clearly told to watch Itachi when he was 11, and at some point while watching Itachi he died.  Baroxio's assumption is that this means Shisui died while Itachi was 11 BUT I disagree because Shisui's death was triggered by Danzo taking his eye, which was triggered by Shisui planning to Koto Fugaku and prevent the coup.

So Shisui could very well have been watching Itachi for two years eye em oh.  Again, I think in this case it just comes down to A)DB is wrong, Kakashi is right B)DB is right, Kakashi is wrong, or C)DB is right, Kakashi is right, Itachi was in Akatsuki while still living in Konoha.  Or you could assume more than just one thing is wrong but that would be pointless.

Anyway, none can really be proven beyond reasonable doubt so whatevs


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Well Baroxio was like w/e mang we're derailing the thread so let's just agree to disagree BUT this has been rehashed so I just wanna get one last word in with regards to Shisui and Itachi:
> 
> Shisui was clearly told to watch Itachi when he was 11, and at some point while watching Itachi he died.  Baroxio's assumption is that this means Shisui died while Itachi was 11 BUT I disagree because Shisui's death was triggered by Danzo taking his eye, which was triggered by Shisui planning to Koto Fugaku and prevent the coup.
> 
> ...



Except as I pointed out earlier, its not hard to pick out which error is most likely.

You are making it too complicated.
A) Author screwed up the whole story. 
B) An intern entered the wrong age into a hastily written DB.

The safe bet is obvious given the dubious nature of the Databooks.


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## Baroxio (Aug 27, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Well Baroxio was like w/e mang we're derailing the thread so let's just agree to disagree BUT this has been rehashed so I just wanna get one last word in with regards to Shisui and Itachi:
> 
> Shisui was clearly told to watch Itachi when he was 11, and at some point while watching Itachi he died.  Baroxio's assumption is that this means Shisui died while Itachi was 11 BUT I disagree because Shisui's death was triggered by Danzo taking his eye, which was triggered by Shisui planning to Koto Fugaku and prevent the coup.
> 
> ...


The scan saying "half a year after his entrance to ANBU" happens after Shisui's death though, so what you're suggesting is that there is an extra 2 years in Sasuke's memories where everybody is suspicious of Itachi but does nothing about it while he acts as a double mole. A random 2 year time period that is curiously enough never pointed out by Sasuke himself.

Like you said, it could all work together, but we'd have to assume that Itachi was working in Akatsuki and Konoha at the same time (which was my original assumption anyway, considering Itachi's double reverse mole status at the time and the incredibly shady "Anbu missions" he always had to go on alone, etc.), but a lot of people have a hard time swallowing that for whatever reason.

Well, whatever. I doubt either of us will change the other's mind, but I've said my piece. Always a pleasure debating with you Axiom.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> The scan saying "half a year after his entrance to ANBU" happens after Shisui's death though, so what you're suggesting is that there is an extra 2 years in Sasuke's memories where everybody is suspicious of Itachi but does nothing about it while he acts as a double mole. A random 2 year time period that is curiously enough never pointed out by Sasuke himself.
> 
> Like you said, it could all work together, but we'd have to assume that Itachi was working in Akatsuki and Konoha at the same time (which was my original assumption anyway, considering Itachi's double reverse mole status at the time and the incredibly shady "Anbu missions" he always had to go on alone, etc.), but a lot of people have a hard time swallowing that for whatever reason.
> 
> Well, whatever. I doubt either of us will change the other's mind, but I've said my piece. Always a pleasure debating with you Axiom.



Your assumption is so ignorant it is completely unfounded.  You are just making shit up!



Baroxio said:


> Because johnsuwey is apparently inept at performing the most basic of functions, I'll bring the fucking links to you to read.
> 
> *Itachi becomes chunin at 10:
> 
> ...



So he was 11 at the massacre, yet was promoted to ANBU captain at 13?

You have twisted the story up so much, you can't even keep basic events straight.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 27, 2013)

but your mind as well

 I pointed this out is the fact that Itachi acts as a double spy. He joins the Akatsuki as a means to protect his village and acts a spy within the Uchiha clan.

 Baroxio brought out the evidence, so stop denying it and bring up some manga evidence for a change.


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## Axiom (Aug 27, 2013)

Lol, a hollow argument if I've ever seen one.  He calls Itachi a double spy within the Uchiha and Konoha.  As in, the Uchiha use him to spy on Konoha while Konoha uses him to spy on the Uchiha.

How the hell does Akatsuki play into that?

As Baroxio said, he and I aren't going to change one another's opinions, and I can respect that, but if he threw evidence as weak as that at me, I'd throw it back in his face >.>


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 27, 2013)

^ It basically foreshadows him being a double spy. Being an Akatsuki plays into what Danzo is saying. Do you not understand that Itachi became an Akatsuki for the sake of the village? He returned to Konoha during Part 1 because of the love of the village and his brother. 

 Please, if you're going to say something, at least understand my point before criticizing it.


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## Axiom (Aug 27, 2013)

...what in the name of god are you talking about?

Foreshadows him being a double spy?  He was already fucking established as a double spy in the Uchiha Clan and Konoha.  Danzo was telling Itachi to kill his clan there, not to join Akatsuki.  That panel has _absolutely nothing_ to do with Akatsuki.  I don't know how you fail to understand that the double spy comment was already established with Itachi working for both Konoha and the Uchiha Clan, and that Akatsuki is entirely irrelevant to that comment.

Make a valid point if you don't want it to be criticized :|


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 27, 2013)

^ Whatever. Itachi loves the village, doesn't mind acting as a double spy, joins Akatsuki for the love of Konoha.

 Don't understand how that's hard to explain. People have their own interpretation.


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## Axiom (Aug 27, 2013)

Uhm... okay?  You're just stating the obvious.  Nobody is asking _if_ Itachi joined Akatsuki, or _why_ Itachi joined Akatsuki--hopefully the answers to those questions are apparent to everyone and their mother.  The question is _when_ did Itachi join Akatsuki.

Baroxio says it was when he was 11, I say it was when he was 13.  Your scan does nothing to prove either side's argument.


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## Baroxio (Aug 27, 2013)

@NarutoX28
It's not known whether or not Itachi was a part of Akatsuki while working for Konoha. It might make sense, but there isn't any actual proof for us to make the claim. 

Thanks for the backup though.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> he speaks of Zabuza
> 
> I pointed this out is the fact that Itachi acts as a double spy. He joins the Akatsuki as a means to protect his village and acts a spy within the Uchiha clan.
> 
> Baroxio brought out the evidence, so stop denying it and bring up some manga evidence for a change.



You mean the evidence I just destroyed or the dubious DB?  Because that is all he has...




Baroxio said:


> @NarutoX28
> It's not known whether or not Itachi was a part of Akatsuki while working for Konoha. It might make sense, but there isn't any actual proof for us to make the claim.
> 
> Thanks for the backup though.


Remember how I raped your last argument, well get the lube ready again.

There is no proof, because its a made up timeline pulled out of the asses of people who want to believe the DB age is correct.


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## Skywalker (Aug 28, 2013)

How did this go from Kimimaro vs Asuma to an Itachi age discussion.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

Hard to see Kimi not winning


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 5, 2016)

Holy shit, hard to believe I actually posted in this thread over 2 years back. 

 Looks like I was smart before I even became a brilliant debater.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Holy shit, hard to believe I actually posted in this thread over 2 years back.
> 
> Looks like I was smart before I even became a brilliant debater.



Just call me Necro, my man


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 5, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Just call me Necro, my man



 It's quite all right. I enjoy seeing how intelligent I was 2 years ago.


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