# Jak's Final Battles #1 - BSM Naruto & Minato vs Current Sasuke



## Jak N Blak (Oct 14, 2014)

So...I decided to come back to the Dome again. It's been a long time. I wonder if any old faces will appear in here. Lmao. Whatever.

Everything goes.
Starting Distance: 500m

Minato and Naruto both start in BijuuSageMode


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## Cognitios (Oct 14, 2014)

Current Sauce stomps.
BSM Naruto and Minato are about two tiers lower in power.


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## Hachibi (Oct 14, 2014)

-snip-

Sasuke stomp with Chibaku Tensei or Perfect Susano.


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## SSMG (Oct 14, 2014)

Sasuke blitz' with PS chidori or as others have said he uses CT to take em out. or he can genjutsu em with a glance and cut them down with his sword. sasuke has alot of way he can win.. unlike the father son duel.


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## Kyu (Oct 14, 2014)

Current Sasuke destroys them....what is this?


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2014)

I very much doubt Sasuke would destroy them, as you'd basically end up with Minato giving Naruto the other half of Kurama, and then it be Super BSM-Naruto with some FTG support from Minato vs Sasuke. However I do think Sasuke would win out in the end, as nothing can really compete with Sages magical chakra besides others with that magical chakra.


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## Kai (Oct 14, 2014)

Why would we end up with such a scenario Turrin?

BSM Naruto and BM Minato couldn't do a thing against Obito. What can they possibly achieve against Sasuke?


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## Cognitios (Oct 14, 2014)

> Why would we end up with such a scenario Turrin?


Because Turrin forgets the no plot rule constantly


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

imo Sasuke is BM naruto level. 
I'm honestly not convinced that he is even stronger than Hashirama, who's also below them indevious. 

His PS is not all that powerful, 1 or 2 tails from Kurama is enough to counter it. Sasuke having Sage chakra = nothing effect that is Bullshit argument, plain simple. 

lead to another dimension
Here, Minato's Kurama reflect Obito's chakra arms with his tail, and stopped the other with its arm.
Naruto's Kurama did the same thing for the chakra arm.

Did either Minato or Naruto have the Sage's chakra back then? No
Did their attack effected the chakra arm? Yes, surely it did.
as a matter of fact, the arms got trashed


Even the Gedu-damas themselves got effected by normal Rassengans


and latter own Naruto destroyed them with his 9 Rassengans, and that was the Sage's shield and sword. So, once again, thinking just because it has the Sage's chakra means it won't be effected = utter BS. And that was shown directly in the manga. 

Now, either of the Kuramas is equal to Sasuke's PS as shown in the manga, both of them should be able to easily overwhelm it. Sasuke's other option is the teleportation jutsu, which has a cool-down, that can be easily countered by FTG, which does not even require a cool-sown. 

I honestly can't see away for Sasuke to win, and I'm sure they can't even make an argument for him other than
"oh, he's sasuke, and he has Hago's chakra" 

but based on feats, he sucks honestly. 

even his current fight with Naruto seems to have ended already even though Naruto is holding back, but will see.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> Why would we end up with such a scenario Turrin?
> 
> BSM Naruto and BM Minato couldn't do a thing against Obito. What can they possibly achieve against Sasuke?



couldn't do a thing to Obito?  
pretty sure it's Obito who lost at the end of the day. 

and actually obito should have more of the Sage's chakra than Sasuke does. It's funny that people think that even with a tiny amount of his chakra Kakashi = Sasuke. Yet, the whole thing is less and weaker?


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## Kai (Oct 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> couldn't do a thing to Obito?
> pretty sure it's Obito who lost at the end of the day.


BSM Naruto and BM Minato engage Obito.

Obito lands upright and unscathed. Both BM users get tossed on their ass. They couldn't do a thing against him.



			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> and actually obito should have more of the Sage's chakra than Sasuke does. It's funny that people think that even with a tiny amount of his chakra Kakashi = Sasuke. Yet, the whole thing is less and weaker?


What in the world are you talking about?

Half of Hagoromo's power was evenly distributed to Sasuke


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## Hachibi (Oct 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> couldn't do a thing to Obito?
> pretty sure it's Obito who lost at the end of the day.
> 
> and actually obito should have more of the Sage's chakra than Sasuke does. It's funny that people think that even with a tiny amount of his chakra Kakashi = Sasuke. Yet, the whole thing is less and weaker?



Obito lost because of lolfriendship and lolregret.

Also, Sasuke trashed someone's stronger than Juubito


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## JuicyG (Oct 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I very much doubt Sasuke would destroy them, as you'd basically end up with Minato giving Naruto the other half of Kurama, and then it be Super BSM-Naruto with some FTG support from Minato vs Sasuke. However I do think Sasuke would win out in the end, as nothing can really compete with Sages magical chakra besides others with that magical chakra.




I agree with this. Though we've never seen it happen, one must ask, why not ? I do think Sasuke would still win, but its not without difficulty


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> Why would we end up with such a scenario Turrin?


They did combine their chakras against Obito and Minato did transfer chakra to Naruto (and later against Madara Minato did attempt to transfer Yin-Kurama to Naruto when the situation became dire enough). So whether they will literally be Minato transferring Yin Kurama over to Naruto or them simply brofisting it out, the end result remains the same. 



> BSM Naruto and BM Minato couldn't do a thing against Obito. What can they possibly achieve against Sasuke?


They actually did fight against Obito and counter Obito's jutsu quite a few times, and imo Juubito > Sasuke anyway.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> BSM Naruto and BM Minato engage Obito.
> 
> Obito lands upright and unscathed. Both BM users get tossed on their ass. They couldn't do a thing against him.
> 
> ...



- and?
They destroyed his chakra arms with a normal Rassengan, and they still damaged his Gedu-dama.
Regardless of how they fall, what damage did that cause to them exactly?  

- So? 
Obito had more than the half when he absorbed the Juubi. 
did that stopped his chakra arms and Gedu-damas from being destroyed? 

did that stop them from doing this?

or this?


the thing is, Sasuke does not have Gedu-damas, how is he going to erase the damage?

When Obito tried to blow everyone up, who were the two who trolled him and saved everyone from his attacks?


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## Hachibi (Oct 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> imo Juubito > Sasuke anyway.



>Juudara is said to be stronger than Juubito by Minato
>Sasuke thrashed Juudara
>Is considered weaker than Juubito


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Obito lost because of lolfriendship and lolregret.
> 
> Also, Sasuke trashed someone's stronger than Juubito



Zetsu trashed Sasuke had Naruto not saving him with Kaguya. Bz admitted inferiority to base 1-armed Minato. Does that mean base Minato is stronger than Sasuke? 

Also, his attack was meaningless, as Madara just regenerated, and was even caring about his other Rinnegan rather than fighting Sasuke. It's just as much of a proof as Black Zetsu being stronger than a stronger madara.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> >Juudara is said to be stronger than Juubito by Minato
> >Sasuke thrashed Juudara
> >Is considered weaker than Juubito



> 2 Rinnegan madara is stronger than 1 Rinnegan madara
> Black Zetsu trashed Madara
> black zetsu trashed Sasuke
(Naruto saving him: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/681/19"

> Blac Zetsu admitted inferiority to base Minato with one arm
> consider weaker than Sasuke.

See your logic?


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## Hachibi (Oct 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Zetsu trashed Sasuke had Naruto not saving him with Kaguya. Bz admitted inferiority to base 1-armed Minato. Does that mean base Minato is stronger than Sasuke?



Kaguya and Zetsu were one when they both catched Naruto and Sasuke off-guard, wasn't the same shit with one-armed Minato.



> Also, his attack was meaningless, as Madara just regenerated, and was even caring about his other Rinnegan rather than fighting Sasuke. It's just as much of a proof as Black Zetsu being stronger than a stronger madara.



Madara didn't regenerate his lower part for a full chapter 

And he was caring for the Rinnegan because otherwise he would get owned badly.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Kaguya and Zetsu were one when they both catched Naruto and Sasuke off-guard, wasn't the same shit with one-armed Minato.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- the lame excuses again. 
what does being inside of her clothes have to do with Zetsu himself? 

- So, you do acknowledge that he did regenerate and that attack was meaningless at the end of the day?  

- get owned by both Naruto and Sasuke, not Sasuke by himself.


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## Hachibi (Oct 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - the lame excuses again.
> what does being inside of her clothes have to do with Zetsu himself?
> 
> - So, you do acknowledge that he did regenerate and that attack was meaningless at the end of the day?
> ...



-Zetsu was basically her arm 

-By this logic, Naruto ripping off Kaguya's arm was meaningless 

-Naruto did so little that he doesn't really matter


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

^
ok, it seems it's pointless to go with you about that.

Anyway, can you tell us what can Sasuke do to defeat them exactly?
(or even one of them by his own for that matter. )


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## Hachibi (Oct 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> ok, it seems it's pointless to go with you about that.
> 
> Anyway, can you tell us what can Sasuke do to defeat them exactly?
> (or even one of them by his own for that matter. )



Everything everyone told you in the Current Sasuke vs BM Naruto you made should tell you.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> >Juudara is said to be stronger than Juubito by Minato
> >Sasuke thrashed Juudara
> >Is considered weaker than Juubito


When did Sasuke ever thrash Juubidara. Heck when did Sasuke ever fight Juubidara by himself? Him and Naruto were working together against Juubidara.


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## Hachibi (Oct 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> When did Sasuke ever thrash Juubidara. Heck when did Sasuke ever fight Juubidara by himself? Him and Naruto were working together against Juubidara.



Naruto did little against Shinju absorbed One-Eyed Juudara, and the fact that he managed to stab him in the heart and later cut him in half.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Everything everyone told you in the Current Sasuke vs BM Naruto you made should tell you.



What did they ever say? They were ALL without a freaking single evidence. They were as clueless as they can get. All they said is "oh my god! Sasuke has Hago's chakra"

and they ALL failed to put ANY argument whatsoever no matter how sad, or weak it is. And then the Goose closed the thread, because oh my gosh! Sasuke is fighting Naruto who's holding back, which means he is above any other Naruto.  

Just like How Toroi was put against KCM Naruto, and that surly means he's stronger than SM Naruto. 
Link removed


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## Kyu (Oct 14, 2014)

Sharinnegan Sauce bisected Juubi Jin Madara - who happens to be two powerups above Juubi Jin Obito.

BSM Naruto/BM Minato can pressure Juubito's _Onmyōton_ but they'd lose in a straight up fight if Jew was allowed to fight back.

How on earth is this not a one-sided stomp?


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Sauce bisected Juubi Madara - who happens to be two powerups above Juubito.
> 
> BSM Naruto/BM Minato can pressure Juubito's _Onmyōton_ but they'd lose in a straight up fight against him.
> 
> How on earth is this not a one-sided stomp?



- and so did Zetsu. 
SM Naruto did damage Juubi's host Obito. 
Lee fodderstomped Edo Madara, does that make him more powerful than Hashirama who lost against him? 


- How do you know that they would lose? Especially now since they know his weakness and pretty much how to make the Gedu-dama completely useless which was the only thing Obito was using to attack and defence.  



> How on earth is this not a one-sided stomp?



So, you agree that Black Zetsu Vs current Sasuke is a one-sided stomp because BZ fodderized Madara at his peak, something Sasuke can't do? 

oh wait, wasn't Sasuke helpless against Black zetsu who is not on the same level as 1-armed base Minato? 


anyway, no one cares about what they did against different characters, can you tell us Sasuke's feats that would destroy them exactly? Because even his strongest jutsu, is just as powerful as 1 half of Kurama as was shown in the manga directly, it's not fan-fictional stuff as Sasuke's supporters seem to do here.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

by the way. 

Shouldn't SM Naruto vs SM Hashirama be panned?
Because Naruto damaged JJ Obito who happened to be several tiers stronger than Hashirama, which means
SM Naruto is way stronger than Hashirama? 

That's supported by how Hashirama's jutsu did not effect obito at all, but Naruto's rassengan did. 
pretty sure everyone who said the same thing about Sasuke would agree that SM Naruto >>>>>>>>> SM Hashirama.  

#logic


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## Kyu (Oct 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - and so did Zetsu.



BZ blindsided an unsuspecting Madara from behind. 

Madara was aware of Sasuke's presence yet wasn't fast enough to fly out of Sasuke's visual range. 

These two situations are far from similar.

Have no idea why you continuously bring the Zetsu incident up.


> SM Naruto did damage Juubi's host Obito.



and?

Obito was already tagged giving Tobirama an opportunity to teleport Naruto on him. 



> Lee fodderstomped Edo Madara, does that make him more powerful than Hashirama who lost against him?



kicking someone with limited mobility=/= having the ability to defeat them in combat

We all know Kyuubified Lee isn't anywhere near Edo Madara's/Hashirama's level.



> - How do you know that they would lose?



_Juubidama x4_ = two dead Kyuubi Jinchuriki. 



> So, you agree that Black Zetsu Vs current Sasuke is a one-sided stomp because BZ fodderized Madara at his peak, something Sasuke can't do?



Again, BZ literally stabbed Madara in the back. 

Things would've played out differently if Madara was aware of BZ's true intentions. 




> oh wait, wasn't Sasuke helpless against Black zetsu who-



-was attached to his mommy a.k.a the god of the verse.



> anyway, no one cares about what they did against different characters, can you tell us Sasuke's feats that would destroy them exactly?



Flight and Sharinnegan hax fucks them over. 

RSM Naruto was caught off guard, BSM/BM stand no chance.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

> =Kyu;51975734]BZ blindsided an unsuspecting Madara from behind.
> Madara was aware of Sasuke's presence yet wasn't fast enough to fly out of Sasuke's visual range.
> These two situations are far from similar.
> Have no idea why you continuously bring the Zetsu incident up.


Madara was going to Kakashi as well, and Sasuke came from the back. 
as for your question, it's because were are talking about Madara, and Zetsu fodderized him. 



> and?
> Obito was already tagged giving Tobirama an opportunity to teleport Naruto on him.



Good for you. But how does that change the fact that he was effected by the attack even though
he has the Sage's chakra? 
because surely Kishi did not take people's logic here and say "he has the sage's chakra, therefore nothing will ever harm him" 


> kicking someone with limited mobility=/= having the ability to defeat them in combat
> We all know Kyuubified Lee isn't anywhere near Edo Madara's/Hashirama's level.


you're just making excuses, and was JJ Madara willing to fight Sasuke back or to teleport and take
his eye back? 

- Good, yet that does not change the fact that Madara got fodderized by Lee. Same logic apply to Sasuke. 



> _Juubidama x4_ = two dead Kyuubi Jinchuriki.


:rofl
Sorry, but that utter nonsense, especially that Minato already trolled them, and was planning to teleport all of them.  


> Again, BZ literally stabbed Madara in the back.
> Things would've played out differently if Madara was aware of BZ's true intentions.



Well, it's a battle, and they can play it however they want. The point is Black zetsu was able to achieve that even though he is weaker. Team 7 sealed Kaguya, even though she's stronger than them...etc 




> -was attached to his mommy a.k.a the god of the verse.


 and? 
at no point was it even implied that made him any different. 



> Flight and Sharinnegan hax fucks them over.


Which hax? 
a s/t jutsu that require a cool-down after each use? and I'm not sure what the flight is going to do here
Naruto was able to track Obito when he was flying, no? 
and he was able to make his attack with Kurama's arms, and he was able to attack flying Obito with a TBB, and managed to attack the Gedu-damas with his Rassengans, so what are you talking about? 


> RSM Naruto was caught off guard, BSM/BM stand no chance.


and? did that even scratch him? no, it did not. 
Did I mention the fact that Naruto is holding back? 

In addition, they are 2 here, and Minato has his own teleportation jutsu as well, Sasuke can't attack both at the same time even if he wanted.


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## Ruse (Oct 14, 2014)

Sasuke wins, he should be far above these two. 

Plus he had better portrayal against a stronger Juubi Jin than the one the duo fought.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

btw Kyu,

What do you say of the point that Sasuke's chakra is already linked to Naruto and Minato's, and thus they can teleport to him whenever they want as well? 

How would that be different from Obito being tagged, and Tobirama teleporting to him even while flying?


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## Ersa (Oct 14, 2014)

Rikudo Sasuke casually offed the 9 Bijuu, it took BM Naruto a bit of effort to subdue just 5 Bijuu. The gap is enormous and Minato does nothing here, they both get fodderized. Top tiers have shown to be no match for god tiers.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Rikudo Sasuke casually offed the 9 Bijuu,* it took BM Naruto a bit of effort to subdue just 5 Bijuu*. The gap is enormous and Minato does nothing here, they both get fodderized. Top tiers have shown to be no match for god tiers.





you do realize that
1- Naruto was only matching their power because he did not want to hurt them.
2- That was his first transformation
3- That was BM and not BSM

Sasuke's power is shown to be equal to BM from the last chapter, he can do absolutly nothing to Kurama's avatar as proven in the manga.


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## Ersa (Oct 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> you do realize that
> 1- Naruto was only matching their power because he did not want to hurt them.
> 2- That was his first transformation
> 3- That was BM and not BSM
> ...


Doesn't matter, the difference is there. Can BSM Naruto take out all the Bijuu (including Kurama) as quickly as Sasuke did?

Naruto is using his Rikudo Mode against Sasuke right now...what manga are you reading? It's blatantly clear they are at least on the same level, Naruto is probably stronger currently but not in BSM. BM Naruto got knocked around by blind SM Madara and Sasuke chopped Juubi-Jinnchuurki Madara in half...

I love how you claim others are so biased yet you make these absurd statements. There is no debate here, Sasuke wiping the floor with 9 Bijuu and blitzing Juubidara are more then enough to say he'll clean up these two.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Doesn't matter, the difference is there. Can BSM Naruto take out all the Bijuu (including Kurama) as quickly as Sasuke did?
> 
> Naruto is using his Rikudo Mode against Sasuke right now...what manga are you reading? It's blatantly clear they are at least on the same level, Naruto is probably stronger currently but not in BSM. BM Naruto got knocked around by blind SM Madara and Sasuke chopped Juubi-Jinnchuurki Madara in half...
> 
> I love how you claim others are so biased yet you make these absurd statements. There is no debate here, Sasuke wiping the floor with 9 Bijuu and blitzing Juubidara are more then enough to say he'll clean up these two.



- Do you mean base Naruto against the Bijuus? 
if so, no obviously. If you mean with his power, then yes he can. The first time he defeated them in only 5 minutes, with BSM, and the power he learned later on, that should be much less... @.@

- The same level and Naruto is holding back, and not using his strongest attacks, or even a single clone?  

- I already addressed my opinion about that whole madara thing, so I don't plan to go there again.
By your logic Sasuke is not even in the same level as Sakura. 

Sasuke's pitiful try 
[1]
[1]

No damage at all to Kaguya

Sakura's
[1]

Even though Kaguya was stronger and faster. So, can we all agree that Sakura is on a whole different level based on Sasuke's fans logic?


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## Ersa (Oct 14, 2014)

Okay Hussain you win. Sasuke is only as strong as BM Naruto and weaker then BSM Minato.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Okay Hussain you win. Sasuke is only as strong as *BSM* Naruto and weaker then *BM* Minato.



fixed. @>@

anyway, although Sasuke sucks so far, I guess the next chapter will see what he has. Because honestly he's pathetic so far.


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## Ersa (Oct 14, 2014)

Of course Rikudo Sasuke is weaker then BM Minato, thought that was obvious.


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## Jagger (Oct 14, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto did little against Shinju absorbed One-Eyed Juudara, and the fact that he managed to stab him in the heart and later cut him in half.


That did not kill him, though. Not to mention that, at end of the day, they needed each other to beat him back then. After all, Naruto asisted Sasuke by hitting Madara with a Rasengan unfluenced by the One-Tail. 

I'll agree Sasuke's performance in that fight was better, but because he could see Madara's Limbo clones, yet, Naruto was still capable of avoiding them using his enhanced sense.

Edit: Using the example that Sasuke was capable of restraining each Bijuu in seconds while Naruto did not is not a good one.

Let's remind ourselves that was Naruto's first transformation (as stated by Kurama himself that their recently developed bond wasn't strong enough) and that Naruto does not possess Genjutsu/sealing jutsu to subdue them.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Of course Rikudo Sasuke is weaker then BM Minato, thought that was obvious.




He's a little below Sakura's level since she could punch Kaguya, while Sasuke couldn't.  

anyway,,,, never-mind,,,,whatever,,,,the manga is ending anyway,,, it's not important anymore.....
all there is left is for us to wait for our day comes to pass.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 15, 2014)

what the fuk am i reading? sasuke slaughters minato and naruto no diff, via genjutsu chibaku tensei combo or space time blitz


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## Ghost (Oct 15, 2014)

Sasuke lolstomps. Why did this reach three pages?


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## LostSelf (Oct 15, 2014)

This morning this thread had like 3 answers saying that Sasuke stomps. Wich is logically.

Now i come and see people debating about BM Naruto having a chance. Seriously guys. Rikudo Sasuke destroys them so bad that even Hinata would make fun of Naruto.


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## ueharakk (Oct 15, 2014)

it took naruto, minato, ems sasuke, the cloaked alliance, the gokage, edo tobirama and hiruzen in order to beat juubito.

Naruto and minato arenʻt doing this alone.


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## Psp123789 (Oct 15, 2014)

Sasuke destroys them easily. This team wouldn't even last 2 seconds against current naruto who Sasuke is fighting right now.


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## Kyu (Oct 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Madara was going to Kakashi as well, and Sasuke came from the back.
> as for your question, it's because were are talking about Madara, and Zetsu fodderized him.


But Madara knew:

of Sasuke chasing him
of Sasuke's Sharinnegan Shifting ability

He tried to escape Sauce's 'room' so to speak and failed. 




Call me when Zetsu can do that in a straight up confrontation.



> Good for you.


...Huh?



> But how does that change the fact that he was effected by the attack even though
> he has the Sage's chakra?
> because surely Kishi did not take people's logic here and say "he has the sage's chakra, therefore nothing will ever harm him"



A Juubi Jinchurki's body can be harmed by conventional attacks(we've seen Gai split Madara's shit with his bare hands for Christ's sake). _*Onmyōton*_ infused into _ Gudōdama_is what negates ninjutsu - making it difficult to damage a Juubi's Jin.



> you're just making excuses,



No... I'm stating a fact. Edo Madara was still connected to the Juubi. He couldn't exactly move or dodge without relinquishing his control over the ten tails.



> and was JJ Madara willing to fight Sasuke back or to teleport and take
> his eye back?



He ran away like a little bitch to retrieve his left eye because Sasuke & Naruto were too strong.

If Sasuke alone wasn't a threat to Juubi Madara then Madz would've thrashed him while Naruto was preoccupied sealing a Limbo clone instead of fleeing.



> - Good, yet that does not change the fact that Madara got fodderized by Lee. Same logic apply to Sasuke.



No it doesn't.



> :rofl
> Sorry, but that utter nonsense, especially that Minato already trolled them, and was planning to teleport all of them.



Juubito flies up & spams JD.

Minato & his sperm cell are eventually overwhelmed.

They die.

The end.

Juubito > BSM Nardo & BM Minato


> Well, it's a battle, and they can play it however they want. The point is Black zetsu was able to achieve that even though he is weaker. Team 7 sealed Kaguya, even though she's stronger than them...etc



PIS is a thing.

Just sayin.




> and?
> at no point was it even implied that made him any different.



he merged with the strongest creature in the series.

Are you kidding?



> a s/t jutsu that require a cool-down after each use?


Sasuke can use it more than once before cool-down sets in.



> and I'm not sure what the flight is going to do here



You say this like the BSM/BM duo can catch him while he's airborne.



> Naruto was able to track Obito when he was flying, no?



so was Sauce and they ate a piledriver from hundreds of meters in the air for their efforts.



> and? did that even scratch him? no, it did not.



Doesn't matter. The point is his S/T can get the drop on RSM Naruto.



> Did I mention the fact that Naruto is holding back?



Why wouldn't he dodge if he's solely on the defensive?

Reason is he could't; Sauce legitimately surprised him.



> In addition, they are 2 here, and Minato has his own teleportation jutsu as well, Sasuke can't attack both at the same time even if he wanted.




The two of them couldn't defeat Juubito.

They aren't touching current Sasuke.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto did little against Shinju absorbed One-Eyed Juudara, and the fact that he managed to stab him in the heart and later cut him in half.


Which did nothing as well. And what do you mean Naruto did little, all of these things were combined assaults.


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

my point has been proven, once again. 

Sasuke (before the last chapter at least) was never on the same level as Naruto. 
(talk about obvious. )


----------



## SSMG (Oct 16, 2014)

Hussian you cant ignore kyus post which is conceding to his points then turn around and say your point is proven...

But anyways this chapter showed just how far above current sasuke is to kurama cloaked characters... he took on three at once with ease.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Which did nothing as well. And what do you mean Naruto did little, all of these things were combined assaults.



They weren't.

The stab thing was when Madara tried to attack Sasuke alone and cutting him in half was only Sasuke's work.


----------



## Lurko (Oct 16, 2014)

Sasuke cuts Naruto's head off.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Hussian you cant ignore kyus post which is conceding to his points then turn around and say your point is proven...
> 
> But anyways this chapter showed just how far above current sasuke is to kurama cloaked characters... he took on three at once with ease.



I did not ignore it, I just saw the thread, and I had the time to write my previous post before my class starts. I will return to the previous posts whenever I have the time, even though I think the last chapter made it pretty obvious.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> my point has been proven, once again.
> 
> Sasuke (before the last chapter at least) was never on the same level as Naruto.
> (talk about obvious. )



The fact that PS Chidori managed to stallmate RSM's Bijuudama make it far above anything the Father-Son can ever hope to achieve.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> it took naruto, minato, ems sasuke, the cloaked alliance, the gokage, edo tobirama and hiruzen in order to beat juubito.
> 
> Naruto and minato arenʻt doing this alone.



Other than the child, his father, Sasuke, and Tobirama, the others were there only to pull out the Bijuus, which is no the case here since Sasuke does not have their chakra (before the last chapter that is. 


> =Kyu;51978490]But Madara knew:
> 
> of Sasuke chasing him
> of Sasuke's Sharinnegan Shifting ability
> ...



again, madara did not care. As for Zetsu, pretty sure he stopped both the child and Sasuke. 
5 meters




> A Juubi Jinchurki's body can be harmed by conventional attacks(we've seen Gai split Madara's shit with his bare hands for Christ's sake). _*Onmyōton*_ infused into _ Gudōdama_is what negates ninjutsu - making it difficult to damage a Juubi's Jin.


And Sasuke does not have those Gedu-damas and can't make the Ninjutsu useless, so a direct strong attack will end him. 



> No... I'm stating a fact. Edo Madara was still connected to the Juubi. He couldn't exactly move or dodge without relinquishing his control over the ten tails.


Using the Susanoo does not require him to move an inch. 



> He ran away like a little bitch to retrieve his left eye because Sasuke & Naruto were too strong.
> 
> If Sasuke alone wasn't a threat to Juubi Madara then Madz would've thrashed him while Naruto was preoccupied sealing a Limbo clone instead of fleeing.


You said it yourself sasuke AND NARUTO, no sasuke alone. He even stated that the kid can't win by himself, and which the kid replied that they would do it together. And sealing the clone did not even take that long, and he knows he can't trash him in that time alone. 



> Juubito flies up & spams JD.
> Minato & his sperm cell are eventually overwhelmed.
> They die.
> The end.
> Juubito > BSM Nardo & BM Minato



Spamming is nonsensical argument. He would have done that if he thought the same thing as you. But those fan-fictional scenarios, well, nothing more than fan-fiction, it's as foolish as when people try to put itachi 10 tiers above his level because lol-spam.  



> PIS is a thing.
> Just sayin.


Good thing there is no anti-PIS exist..  




> he merged with the strongest creature in the series.
> Are you kidding?


He just stayed in her clothes for the love of God. 
Kishi would have mentioned something if there is a different, but he did not, and Zetsu is not a jutsu
to say he became stronger because she "uses" it. It's a creature! 



> Sasuke can use it more than once before cool-down sets in.


No he can't. After the retcon that is. And that's why Kakashi stepped in to try to protect him from Kaguya's attack. 



> You say this like the BSM/BM duo can catch him while he's airborne.


Kyu please. 
you can re-watch the Obito fight he was flying the whole time and yet, they attacked him. 
5 meters
5 meters
...etc

What makes Sasuke's flying any different exactly? 



> so was Sauce and they ate a piledriver from hundreds of meters in the air for their efforts.


They still managed to hit him, and that's the point, I don't care what happened latter because my point
is about their ability to attack him while flying. Either way, Sasuke does not have the Gedu-dama, and his PS is only the size is only the Kurama's avatar, so he can't do that to them. 



> Doesn't matter. The point is his S/T can get the drop on RSM Naruto.


a HOLDING BACK Naruto that is. 


> Why wouldn't he dodge if he's solely on the defensive?
> Reason is he could't; Sauce legitimately surprised him.



Good thing Minato is here as well, and can teleport.  



> The two of them couldn't defeat Juubito.
> They aren't touching current Sasuke.



Obito was stronger than Sasuke. Also, Obito couldn't defeat them either, so...
either way, as you saw in the last chapter, Sasuke needed a MASSIVE power up (basically the Juubi)
to go toe to toe with Naruto. that's how HUGE the gap between them was. 

oh, and people were saying Kurama's avatar that stopped Sasuke's PS attack was powered up. Yet, in the last chapter, he just gained that SM chakra, because he was NOT powered up by it previously.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> The fact that PS Chidori managed to stallmate RSM's Bijuudama make it far above anything the Father-Son can ever hope to achieve.



Do you people even watch the manga?
I'm really sick and tiered of this argument. 

Not only did Naruto say that he is holding back the last chapter, but even IN THIS CHAPTER, HE SAID IT AGAIN! Sasuke said the same thing, what did Naruto say? "I don't want to kill you"

So, what's the point or repeating this and you know that has to do with Naruto not wanting to kill him?


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Do you people even watch the manga?
> I'm really sick and tiered of this argument.
> 
> Not only did Naruto said that he is holding back the last chapter, but even IN THIS CHAPTER, HE SAID IT AGAIN! Sasuke said the same thing, what did Naruto say? "I don't want to kill you"
> ...



Naruto holding back doesn't change the fact that Sasuke could equal him in his low-mid tier attack.

Which mean both get thrashed.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto holding back doesn't change the fact that Sasuke could equal him in his low-mid tier attack.
> 
> Which mean both get thrashed.



Sasuke seemingly equal to him with ALL THE BIJUUS CHAKRA. Not before that.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Sasuke seemingly equal to him with ALL THE BIJUUS CHAKRA. Not before that.



Why are you dodging the point? 

It doesn't matter if Naruto was holding back or not, Sasuke still do decently against him even before he got the Bijuus Chakras. 

Show me a feat of either BSM Naruto or BM Minato that surpass that.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Why are you dodging the point?
> 
> It doesn't matter if Naruto was holding back or not, Sasuke still do decently against him even before he got the Bijuus Chakras.
> 
> Show me a feat of either BSM Naruto or BM Minato that surpass that.



I'm not avoiding anything, but your point is just...what I say,,, less that smart? 
how is holding back does not change any thing exactly? Naruto was not using his full power
I don't know how many times does Kishi have to say that to get through your head. 

Decently? Anyone will do anything to Naruto if he is not fighting back, is like that Karui when she beat him up, is she going to do that if he was going to fight back? I bet she would have shat in her pants.  


Their feat.
1- Destroying Obito's chakra arms, which obviously has the Sage's chakra in it.
2- damaging the Gedu-damas with A RAGUAL RASSENGAN. 
3- Naruto then destroyed the Sage's shield with his 9 normal size Rassengan, and he destroyed the
Gedu-dama with a TBB. 

base Minato made Madara's Gedu-damas useless.

You people were saying that Naruto was using his RM avatar, and the last chapter showed that his normal Kurama's avatar, I don't even know what do you people want more than that. 

Well, if you don't want to take what's showing in the manga, I can't help you. You were wrong, and you are proven wrong in the last chapter, but I guess a lot of people are just too arrogant to admit that they are wrong.


----------



## SSMG (Oct 16, 2014)

Hussain you do realize current sasuke includes this chapter as well right? op didnt restrict him to just last chapters feats.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Hussain you do realize current sasuke includes this chapter as well right? op didnt restrict him to just last chapters feats.



This thread was about the last chapter, with Sasuke at that power up, which I was arguing about. Just because Sasuke received a power up does not make my point, which was not about his current power up, wrong. 

What were they saying at that time?
1-Sasuke = Naruto.  

I told them, it's not the case, and as always, people are delusional and Kishi has to spoon fed them again. How many times have they done the same damn thing? Literally every freaking time since SM, but they never learn. And I swear to God, if Naruto overwhelmed Sasuke in the next chapter, they will deny that, and if Sasuke got another power up to match Naruto, they will take the previous one down, and say the newer one is the one equal to Naruto. Then they will come acting as if they knew it all along, and they were not wrong. Pathetic if I ask me.  


2- They said Naruto was not holding back and Kurama's avatar is his strongest and powered up by SM.

Guess what? They were wrong in both of those as well, and yet they have the guts to act as if they were right, and knew it all along. 

Well, will see how far that will go. 
Gotta love the butthurt

As for current Sasuke, THIS one, will fodderize them obviously.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> They weren't.
> 
> The stab thing was when Madara tried to attack Sasuke alone and cutting him in half was only Sasuke's work.


This is a very narrow view of the battle imo. Naruto was blocking Madara's attacks alongside Sasuke. Naruto was the one engaging and distracting Madara when Sasuke threw his sword at Madara's Hengoku Clone. It was Naruto and Sasuke's combined assault that forced Madara to go after Kakashi's Sharingan, and it was Naruto who kept the Hengoku clone busy while Sasuke attacked Madara from behind. Whether Sasuke would have the ability to do what he did w/o Naruto is very much up for debate.

Beyond that you didn't even acknowledge the fact that these attacks Sasuke landed on Madara accomplished nothing. Stabbing him with a sword or cutting him in half don't mean much to someone with Madara's Juubi powers


----------



## SSMG (Oct 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> This thread was about the last chapter, with Sasuke at that power up, which I was arguing about. Just because Sasuke received a power up does not make my point, which was not about his current power up, wrong.
> 
> What were they saying at that time?
> 1-Sasuke = Naruto.
> ...



Oh i getcha no worries then.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I'm not avoiding anything, but your point is just...what I say,,, less that smart?
> how is holding back does not change any thing exactly? Naruto was not using his full power
> I don't know how many times does Kishi have to say that to get through your head.
> 
> ...



This isn't comparable to the Karui situation at all. vs Karui he wasn't fightning back. Vs Sasuke he was actually on the defensive.

And destroying Obito's thing mean nothing against Rinnegan Sasuke, who's shit is above Juubito's.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is a very narrow view of the battle imo. Naruto was blocking Madara's attacks alongside Sasuke. Naruto was the one engaging and distracting Madara when Sasuke threw his sword at Madara's Hengoku Clone. It was Naruto and Sasuke's combined assault that forced Madara to go after Kakashi's Sharingan, and it was Naruto who kept the Hengoku clone busy while Sasuke attacked Madara from behind. Whether Sasuke would have the ability to do what he did w/o Naruto is very much up for debate.
> 
> Beyond that you didn't even acknowledge the fact that these attacks Sasuke landed on Madara accomplished nothing. Stabbing him with a sword or cutting him in half don't mean much to someone with Madara's Juubi powers



Sasuke didn't need Naruto's block since he already teleported out of Madara's Lightning range
Sasuke only threw his sword to see if it can hit Limbo.

I didn't need to aknowledge that. Yes, it did nothing in the long run, but then Naruto's Kaguya's blitzing feat shouldn't be used than.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 16, 2014)

To put it simple Sasuke will likely overwhelm the duo sooner or later, he's just on a higher level that he's to much for them.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Sasuke didn't need Naruto's block since he already teleported out of Madara's Lightning range
> Sasuke only threw his sword to see if it can hit Limbo.


Naruto still acted as a distraction.



> I didn't need to aknowledge that. Yes, it did nothing in the long run, but then Naruto's Kaguya's blitzing feat shouldn't be used than.


No one uses Naruto's blitzing of Kaguya to justify Naruto being stronger than Kaguya. Here your trying to use Sasuke's feat of hitting Madara with attacks that accomplished nothing to justify him being above Madara.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> This isn't comparable to the Karui situation at all. vs Karui he wasn't fightning back. Vs Sasuke he was actually on the defensive.
> 
> And destroying Obito's thing mean nothing against Rinnegan Sasuke, who's shit is above Juubito's.



- I'm only giving you an example, so you can understand the point. 

- No, his "shit above Juubito's" His shit is a fucking susanoo that cannot damage a single tail of Kurama, while Obito's shit destroyed the entire avatar with 1 attack.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 17, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - I'm only giving you an example, so you can understand the point.
> 
> - No, his "shit above Juubito's" His shit is a fucking susanoo that cannot damage a single tail of Kurama, while Obito's shit destroyed the entire avatar with 1 attack.



-Yeah sure, because Naruto clearly used this,this or this against Karui.

-You can't seriously say that RSM's Kurama Avatar and BM's Kurama Avatar are in the same damn world.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Naruto still acted as a distraction.



Which Sasuke didn't really need since the Limbo wouldn't have protected Madara in time.



> No one uses Naruto's blitzing of Kaguya to justify Naruto being stronger than Kaguya.



Considering how badly she was portayed in that fight, I'm not surprised if Naruto is indeed >Kaguya.



> Here your trying to use Sasuke's feat of hitting Madara with attacks that accomplished nothing to justify him being above Madara.



In the long run? Yes. But that's like saying that 8th Gate Gai isn't superior to Gudodama-less JJ Madara since his attack did nothing to him.


----------



## xenos5 (Oct 18, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> In the long run? Yes. But that's like saying that 8th Gate Gai isn't superior to Gudodama-less JJ Madara since his attack did nothing to him.



each of 8th gate Gai,s attacks made madara cough up blood and during the evening elephant combination madara was paralyzed. sasuke had to catch madara off guard to slice through him while Gai was facing madara head on and madara didn,t have enough time to counterattack because of his speed.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 18, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> each of 8th gate Gai,s attacks made madara cough up blood and during the evening elephant combination madara was paralyzed. sasuke had to catch madara off guard to slice through him while Gai was facing madara head on and madara didn,t have enough time to counterattack because of his speed.



Sasuke catched off guard Madara twice and the first one Madara was concentrated to him.

And reread Turrin and I's debate.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Which Sasuke didn't really need since the Limbo wouldn't have protected Madara in time.


And this is based on what?



> Considering how badly she was portayed in that fight, I'm not surprised if Naruto is indeed >Kaguya.


Than you have a very fault interpretation of the manga, as literally Sasuke and Naruto's combined powers were the only way to defeat her.



> In the long run? Yes. But that's like saying that 8th Gate Gai isn't superior to Gudodama-less JJ Madara since his attack did nothing to him.


He isn't superior to him. Madara won that fight. However Gai's attacks clearly did a hell off a-lot more than Sasuke's.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And this is based on what?



Based on the fact that Sasuke's Black Chidori stuned it.



> Than you have a very fault interpretation of the manga, as literally Sasuke and Naruto's combined powers were the only way to defeat her.



The only reason Sasuke was needed was because Naruto only had one part of the seal. In his one vs one against Kaguya, he clearly overwhelmed her, blitzed her and tricked her many times.



> He isn't superior to him. Madara won that fight. However Gai's attacks clearly did a hell off a-lot more than Sasuke's.



The only reason Madara won that fight was thanks to the Juubi's regeneration. While he didn't have his Gudodamas and Gai was in Red Gate, he manhandled Madara.

And both cleaved him in half, while Sasuke fought a stronger version of the one that fought Gai.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Based on the fact that Sasuke's Black Chidori stuned it.


Yes and Naruto had to maintaining the stunning once Sasuke chased after Madara. If Sasuke was by himself there wouldn't have been anyone left to continue to stun the clone, hence the clone would be free to continue to fight with Sasuke.



> The only reason Sasuke was needed was because Naruto only had one part of the seal. In his one vs one against Kaguya, he clearly overwhelmed her, blitzed her and tricked her many times.


Okay, and Kaguya could not be defeated w/o both parts of the seal, so no matter what Naruto did he would have lost to Kaguya by himself, hence Kaguya is stronger. 

With that aside this is kind of ridiculous as Sasuke saved Naruto several times from Kaguya's attacks, and Kaguya only began to use her full power at the end of the battle, at which point she demonstrated a power that far excels anyone in the verse and it necessitated a combined front of Naruto, Rikudo-Kakashi, Sasuke, and Sakura to barely defeat her before being erased from existence by God-Gododama. 



> The only reason Madara won that fight was thanks to the Juubi's regeneration. While he didn't have his Gudodamas and Gai was in Red Gate, he manhandled Madara.


Listen to yourself, Madara won....hence he is stronger. Doesn't matter if Gai was beating him up for a bit, the fact that Gai couldn't strike the final blow while Madara was about to kill him until Naruto stepped in, shows Madara was the superior of the two. 



> And both cleaved him in half, while Sasuke fought a stronger version of the one that fought Gai.


Gai's blows actually damaged Madara. Sasuke cutting him in half didn't do shit.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yes and Naruto had to maintaining the stunning once Sasuke chased after Madara. If Sasuke was by himself there wouldn't have been anyone left to continue to stun the clone, hence the clone would be free to continue to fight with Sasuke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> That wouldn't have mattered since Sasuke reached Madara before he could react, thus he couldn't swap with his Limbo on time..


Sasuke got the drop on Madara because he was busy stealing Obito's eye (something that he only needed because he was being pressured by both Sasuke and Naruto). He's not faster than Madara or Madara's Rinbo-clones. The Rinbo clones were keeping up with Naruto and Naruto's clones, who were faster than Sasuke. 

You also fail to acknowledge the fact that Madara can swap out with his Rinbo clones whenever he wants, which is yet another way he could have avoided Sasuke's blow if not for Naruto.



> By this logic, Edo Kimimaro is stronger than BSM Naruto since he can't seal Edo.


It's not a matter of Naruto simply lacking a Fuuinjutsu. You could give Minato Fodder Cloth Sealers Fuuinjutsu and he'd still loose. It doesn't require any Fuuinjutsu to defeat Kaguya, you specifically need the Yin and Yang halfs to create the Chibaku Tensei and seal away her Sharinnegan. Naruto only has half the power necessary to defeat Kaguya.



> When did this happen?


Sasuke is the only reason Naruto can withstand Mugen Tsukuyomi (which is Kaguya's jutsu). Sasuke was the one who saved Naruto during Ice world. And while on the subject of Naruto needing to be saved he also needed to be saved by Obito from gravity world and saved by Kakashi from Kaguya's bone spear.



> Sasuke didn't do shit. Naruto only did Clone + Henge. Sakura's was a outlier for a fanservice moment. Kakashi was the only one who truly did something.


The strategy worked due to Sasuke's S-T Jutsu and providing the other half of the power needed to defeat Kaguya.



> Reread the Edo Kimimaro vs BSM Naruto exemple.


And again you could give Gai clothing sealing shit and would have still lost, because by the time he damaged Madara enough where there was even a remote chance of sealing him, he was already burned out and dying, than about to eat a Gododama.



> Doesn't change the fact that he took more time to regen for Sasuke's than Gai's.


Madara didn't bother to regen from Sasuke's attack, he was going after Obito's Rinnegan. When he actually did bother to regen after taking the Rinnegan he was back in one piece like a moment later. Are you really denying how clear the manga makes it that Sasuke's attacked did nothing, while Gai's attack was portrayed as very potent? I mean come on dude, there is having a different interpretation and than there is being willfully dishonest.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke got the drop on Madara because he was busy stealing Obito's eye (something that he only needed because he was being pressured by both Sasuke and Naruto). He's not faster than Madara or Madara's Rinbo-clones. The Rinbo clones were keeping up with Naruto and Naruto's clones, who were faster than Sasuke.



Naruto wasn't using his fastest speed.



> You also fail to acknowledge the fact that Madara can swap out with his Rinbo clones whenever he wants, which is yet another way he could have avoided Sasuke's blow if not for Naruto.



Which he couldn't do since he failed to react to Sasuke in time.



> It's not a matter of Naruto simply lacking a Fuuinjutsu. You could give Minato Fodder Cloth Sealers Fuuinjutsu and he'd still loose. It doesn't require any Fuuinjutsu to defeat Kaguya, you specifically need the Yin and Yang halfs to create the Chibaku Tensei and seal away her Sharinnegan. Naruto only has half the power necessary to defeat Kaguya.



You missed the point of the exemple.



> Sasuke is the only reason Naruto can withstand Mugen Tsukuyomi (which is Kaguya's jutsu).



Happened before the match and she never used it anyways.



> Sasuke was the one who saved Naruto during Ice world.



Then we saw later that Naruto could do it on his own.



> And while on the subject of Naruto needing to be saved he also needed to be saved by Obito from gravity world and saved by Kakashi from Kaguya's bone spear.



The Obito thing was a outlier and he has sensing, so he may or may not needed Kakashi's help.



> The strategy worked due to Sasuke's S-T Jutsu and providing the other half of the power needed to defeat Kaguya.



And we saw Kaguya laughing at Sasuke's shifting ability. The only reason it worked was because she was been afraid of Team 7.



> And again you could give Gai clothing sealing shit and would have still lost, because by the time he damaged Madara enough where there was even a remote chance of sealing him, he was already burned out and dying, than about to eat a Gododama.



So Gaara was superior to 5th Gate Lee, when we clearly saw him geting hitting before he could react?



> Madara didn't bother to regen from Sasuke's attack, he was going after Obito's Rinnegan. When he actually did bother to regen after taking the Rinnegan he was back in one piece like a moment later. Are you really denying how clear the manga makes it that Sasuke's attacked did nothing, while Gai's attack was portrayed as very potent? I mean come on dude, there is having a different interpretation and than there is being willfully dishonest.



Then why he didn't regen instead of flying around with half a body?


----------



## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto wasn't using his fastest speed.


Even Naruto's casual speed is above Sasuke's.



> You missed the point of the exemple.


No I didn't. You were citing an issue of match up. Naruto would have issues with Tensei because he lacks a Fuuinjutsu. However in the case of Kaguya it's not an issue of match up, it's literally Kaguya is so powerful that she can only be defeated by Hagoromo's ultimate technique which necessitated the power of both Sasuke and Naruto.



> Happened before the match and she never used it anyways.


It's her jutsu and the reason she didn't use it was because Sasuke could counter it.



> Then we saw later that Naruto could do it on his own.


No we didn't.



> The Obito thing was a outlier and he has sensing, so he may or may not needed Kakashi's help.


No it fits exactly what was shown throughout the battle; Naruto needed significant help to defeat Kaguya. He needed help to survive various moves and needed help to actually defeat her.



> And we saw Kaguya laughing at Sasuke's shifting ability. The only reason it worked was because she was been afraid of Team 7.


It worked due to the strategy Kakashi came up with, but the strategy worked because of Sasuke. They all relied on each other to defeat Kaguya. Do you honestly think Kishi was going for something else than that.



> So Gaara was superior to 5th Gate Lee, when we clearly saw him geting hitting before he could react?


Gaara defeated Lee, so the idea that Lee was better makes absolutely no sense.



> Then why he didn't regen instead of flying around with half a body?


Because he gave no fucks, since he wasn't facing anyone where he felt the need to regen to fight against


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Even Naruto's casual speed is above Sasuke's.



Not his S/T Jutsu's tho.



> No I didn't. You were citing an issue of match up. Naruto would have issues with Tensei because he lacks a Fuuinjutsu. However in the case of Kaguya it's not an issue of match up, it's literally Kaguya is so powerful that she can only be defeated by Hagoromo's ultimate technique which necessitated the power of both Sasuke and Naruto.



She can't only be defeated by Hagoromo's technique because she's immortal and she's so powerful than another sealing won't last long.



> It's her jutsu and the reason she didn't use it was because Sasuke could counter it.



Then why she didn't use it when she left Sasuke's alone in her desert dimensions?



> No we didn't.



Yes, we did




> No it fits exactly what was shown throughout the battle; Naruto needed significant help to defeat Kaguya. He needed help to survive various moves and needed help to actually defeat her.



Help he either didn't need or forced to have.



> It worked due to the strategy Kakashi came up with, but the strategy worked because of Sasuke. They all relied on each other to defeat Kaguya. Do you honestly think Kishi was going for something else than that.



Yeah, sure Kakashi did the strategy, I didn't denied that. But for most of the fight, Kishi shitted on Sasuke and gave the spotlight to Naruto. The reason it didn't end that way in the end was because he didn't have the Yin-Seal.



> Gaara defeated Lee, so the idea that Lee was better makes absolutely no sense.



Lee was better than Gaara. Gaara just had one of the perfect thing to outlast him. Hell, he couldn't do a thing to Lee when the later was in Gates



> Because he gave no fucks, since he wasn't facing anyone where he felt the need to regen to fight against



Must be why he did regen against the Bijuu even after regaining his right Rinnegan even tho he putted them back in the Mazo with ease.


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Not his S/T Jutsu's tho.
> .


His S-T Jutsu couldn't be used at that range. And actually yes Naruto could still react to and defend Sasuke's S-T Jutsu speed:
*gravity field wasn't constant over the entire area*



> She can't only be defeated by Hagoromo's technique because she's immortal and she's so powerful than another sealing won't last long.


Huh? The reason why only Hagoromo's technique work is it's the only one capable of containing her Sharinnegan's power and chakra.



> Then why she didn't use it when she left Sasuke's alone in her desert dimensions?


Why didn't she use Giant Gododama? Kaguya was fucking around with Naruto (and Sasuke) the entire time until the very end when she got serious.



> Yes, we did


I'm talking about this:
*gravity field wasn't constant over the entire area*

What you showed me does not show Naruto countering that.



> Help he either didn't need or forced to have.


Please show me anything that states or shows that he didn't need Sasuke's help.



> Yeah, sure Kakashi did the strategy, I didn't denied that. But for most of the fight, Kishi shitted on Sasuke and gave the spotlight to Naruto. The reason it didn't end that way in the end was because he didn't have the Yin-Seal.


So basically Naruto could have beaten Kaguya if he was double the strength he was at and had all of Sasuke's Yin Power LOL. That says nothing.

Sasuke saved Naruto from the Ice, which Naruto even thanks him for
Sasuke was the reason Kaguya couldn't insta rape Naruto with MT
Obito needed to save his ass from Gravity World
Kakashi was needed to save his ass form Kaguya's bone spear
Sakura was needed to punch Kaguya, so she couldn't avoid Sasuke/Naruto's attack
Sasuke was provided half the power necessary to use Hagoromo's Jutsu to seal Kaguya

the idea that Naruto could do this on his own is ridiculous. 



> Lee was better than Gaara. Gaara just had one of the perfect thing to outlast him. Hell, he couldn't do a thing to Lee when the later was in Gates


No Gaara was better than Lee, Lee was lucky that his fighting style was suited to dealing with Gaara's defense in the first place, I.E. his speed allowing him to by pass the automatic defense and his strength allowing him to peel off the sand armor. Heck Gaara didn't even use his full power against Lee, as we later saw he could transform into Shukaku.



> Must be why he did regen against the Bijuu even after regaining his right Rinnegan even tho he putted them back in the Mazo with ease.


Was he in hurry to regen his arm? Did he ever say it was imperative? Would he have decided to regen his arm, instead of going after his other Rinnegan if it was right within his grasp? 

Again literally nothing indicates Madara gave a shit about himself being cut in half. While he states that he nearly died from Gai's attack. It's so dam obvious that there is a difference between these situations.


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## Hachibi (Oct 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> His S-T Jutsu couldn't be used at that range. And actually yes Naruto could still react to and defend Sasuke's S-T Jutsu speed:
> *gravity field wasn't constant over the entire area*



Naruto didn't react to Sasuke's S/T. He reacted to his Chidori.



> Huh? The reason why only Hagoromo's technique work is it's the only one capable of containing her Sharinnegan's power and chakra.



Which is what I'm saying.



> Why didn't she use Giant Gododama? Kaguya was fucking around with Naruto (and Sasuke) the entire time until the very end when she got serious.



Didn't know that she was fucking around when she's stated she's going for the kill.
Also Naruto didn't use Kurama's Avatar in this fight.



> I'm talking about this:
> *gravity field wasn't constant over the entire area*
> What you showed me does not show Naruto countering that.



It's basically the same thing 



> Please show me anything that states or shows that he didn't need Sasuke's help.








> So basically Naruto could have beaten Kaguya if he was double the strength he was at and had all of Sasuke's Yin Power LOL. That says nothing.



He doesn't even need to be double his strenght. It was almost like he didn't take her very seriously during the fight.



> Sasuke saved Naruto from the Ice, which Naruto even thanks him for
> Sasuke was the reason Kaguya couldn't insta rape Naruto with MT
> Obito needed to save his ass from Gravity World
> Kakashi was needed to save his ass form Kaguya's bone spear
> ...



-Naruto thanking him doesn't mean anything when Naruto himself can produce heat. Sasuke is just faster at thinking than Naruto
-Considering her dimensions didn't have a moon, MT's range is greatly reduced and thus avoidable for Naruto.
-Chakra Arm or the Kurama Avatar in general would have protected him for Ash Bone.
-He can just create Kurama's Head to protect him.
-A clone can do what she did.
-Give Naruto Sasuke's Yin Power and this fight won't last long.



> the idea that Naruto could do this on his own is ridiculous.



Or that Kaguya was Hanzo'd.



> No Gaara was better than Lee, Lee was lucky that his fighting style was suited to dealing with Gaara's defense in the first place, I.E. his speed allowing him to by pass the automatic defense and his strength allowing him to peel off the sand armor. Heck Gaara didn't even use his full power against Lee, as we later saw he could transform into Shukaku.



By this logic, Gaara was lucky to have Shukaku and that he can control Sand.
Also it was a Shukaku that could be stopped to waking up Gaara.



> Was he in hurry to regen his arm? Did he ever say it was imperative? Would he have decided to regen his arm, instead of going after his other Rinnegan if it was right within his grasp?
> 
> Again literally nothing indicates Madara gave a shit about himself being cut in half. While he states that he nearly died from Gai's attack. It's so dam obvious that there is a difference between these situations.



You're comparing two different Madara: The Judara that was mortal and the Shinjudara that stated himself to be immortal. Dude wasn't even preoccuped by God SasuNaru after he regained his second Rinnegan.


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## Lord Aizen (Oct 18, 2014)

This is a stomp how can anyone argue against that


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## RedChidori (Oct 18, 2014)

Why isn't this thread locked ? Sasuke rapes brutally here.


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto didn't react to Sasuke's S/T. He reacted to his Chidori.


How else would Sasuke attack with the S-T Jutsu, besides using it to get behind someone and than using one of his Jutsu?



> Which is what I'm saying.


No your trying to make as if it's a type mismatch rather than strength. However in reality it's that Kaguya's power is so great that nothing short of Hagoromo's Seal can deal with her.



> Didn't know that she was fucking around when she's stated she's going for the kill.
> Also Naruto didn't use Kurama's Avatar in this fight.


You can go for the kill w/o using your full power. What Kaguya demonstrated at the end of the fight was her full power, and it required Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, and Rikudo-Kakashi to contend with it.



> It's basically the same thing


No it's not.




> Spoiler:


None of that shows or states he didn't need Sasuke's help



> He doesn't even need to be double his strenght. It was almost like he didn't take her very seriously during the fight.


Yeah i'm sure that's why Naruto needed not just the help of Sasuke, but the help of Sakura and Rikudo-Kakashi to defeat her, and also why Naruto was on the verge of being killed multiple times and needed to be saved by others.



> -Naruto thanking him doesn't mean anything when Naruto himself can produce heat. Sasuke is just faster at thinking than Naruto
> -Considering her dimensions didn't have a moon, MT's range is greatly reduced and thus avoidable for Naruto.
> -Chakra Arm or the Kurama Avatar in general would have protected him for Ash Bone.
> -He can just create Kurama's Head to protect him.
> ...


- It's not just heat, it's heat strong enough to melt the ice. Naruto hasn't demonstrated that
- Considering she could just dimension shift Naruto back to the real world and than cast it, Naruto would still be fucked
- The bones went through Rikudo Chakra P-Susano'o like nothing, the avatar isn't stopping them
- Same as above
- No they couldn't. Sakura pulled it off because Kaguya was not focusing on her chakra as she was focusing on Naruto/Sasuke's chakra. If a clone was used she'd have detected it's presence. And the idea that Kakashi a master strategist would use her for no reason is equally ridiculous.



> Or that Kaguya was Hanzo'd.


Don't really even know what that means



> By this logic, Gaara was lucky to have Shukaku and that he can control Sand.
> Also it was a Shukaku that could be stopped to waking up Gaara.


No that's your logic for why Rock Lee is stronger even though he was defeated by a guy who wasn't even using close to his full power. 



> You're comparing two different Madara: The Judara that was mortal and the Shinjudara that stated himself to be immortal. Dude wasn't even preoccuped by God SasuNaru after he regained his second Rinnegan.


Where talking about a Madara who absorbed the Tree, so this is pointless.


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## Hachibi (Oct 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How else would Sasuke attack with the S-T Jutsu, besides using it to get behind someone and than using one of his Jutsu?



Like he did with Madara.



> No your trying to make as if it's a type mismatch rather than strength. However in reality it's that Kaguya's power is so great that nothing short of Hagoromo's Seal can deal with her.



This is exactly a type of mismatch because no matter how powerful you are, you can't beat her as long as you don't have Rikudo Chikau Tensei.



> You can go for the kill w/o using your full power. What Kaguya demonstrated at the end of the fight was her full power, and it required Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, and Rikudo-Kakashi to contend with it.



She was charging a Gudodama which let her open, which Kakashi took advantage of.



> No it's not.



They are both ice whom stuck Naruto for a time.



> None of that shows or states he didn't need Sasuke's help



Like I said multiple time, he only needed Sasuke because he had the other part of the Seal. When Sasuke tried to fight Kaguya alone, he got fodderized quickly while Naruto could overwhelm her.



> Yeah i'm sure that's why Naruto needed not just the help of Sasuke, but the help of Sakura and Rikudo-Kakashi to defeat her, and also why Naruto was on the verge of being killed multiple times and needed to be saved by others.



Only Kakashi truly helped him. Sasuke was the least revelant member of the team and Sakura was being Sakura.



> - It's not just heat, it's heat strong enough to melt the ice. Naruto hasn't demonstrated that
> - Considering she could just dimension shift Naruto back to the real world and than cast it, Naruto would still be fucked
> - The bones went through Rikudo Chakra P-Susano'o like nothing, the avatar isn't stopping them
> - Same as above
> - No they couldn't. Sakura pulled it off because Kaguya was not focusing on her chakra as she was focusing on Naruto/Sasuke's chakra. If a clone was used she'd have detected it's presence. And the idea that Kakashi a master strategist would use her for no reason is equally ridiculous.



-Pretty Sure Magma+Vapor+Blue Flame can reach Amaterasu's heat.
-She would need to be close to him to Dimension Shift him, and it's not like he will stop her to go near the Moon to cast it.
-A Pre-Rikudo BM Naruto took a Juubi Lazer and was just fine. I fail to see Ash Bone doing much.
-Even if she would have detected it she wouldn't dodge the clone's punch in time.



> Don't really even know what that means



That mean she got False Hype like Hanzo.



> No that's your logic for why Rock Lee is stronger even though he was defeated by a guy who wasn't even using close to his full power.



Where is the proof that Gaara could control Shukaku?



> Where talking about a Madara who absorbed the Tree, so this is pointless.



A Madara stronger than the one who fought Gai and self-proclamed immortal.


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 20, 2014)

> -A Pre-Rikudo BM Naruto took a Juubi Lazer and was just fine. I fail to see Ash Bone doing much.



Lol, since when was BM Naruto's Avatar more durable than a Rikudo Chakra Enhanced Perfect Susanoo?


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## Hachibi (Oct 20, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol, since when was BM Naruto's Avatar more durable than a Rikudo Chakra Enhanced Perfect Susanoo?



Failed to say after that " doing much to a Rikudo-enhanced BM Avatar".


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Like he did with Madara.


If he used it against Madara, he also used it to pop up behind him and attack.



> This is exactly a type of mismatch because no matter how powerful you are, you can't beat her as long as you don't have Rikudo Chikau Tensei.


If anything Naruto and Sasuke were a type mismatch for Kaguya, because they had the one power in the verse that could overcome hers. You can't say Kaguya is a type mismatch for them because literally any other power in the verse wouldn't prove effective against Kaguya's. It's not like if Naruto or Sasuke specialized in different areas of Nin, Tai, or Gen they could have defeated Kaguya w/o the seal.



> She was charging a Gudodama which let her open, which Kakashi took advantage of.


Okay and again it took the entire team to do that. If Kishi's intent was to show Naruto is stronger than Kaguya in everything but the seal, he would have had Naruto turn Kaguya into a bloody mess unable to move and than Sasuke would have just stepped in for the seal, I.E. how the Edo-Tensei were defeated and cloth sealers were treated. Instead Kishi showed it taking a team effort to just barely defeat Kaguya.



> They are both ice whom stuck Naruto for a time.


Naruto was not forzen solid to the point he couldn't move the times your citing, that's the difference.



> Like I said multiple time, he only needed Sasuke because he had the other part of the Seal. When Sasuke tried to fight Kaguya alone, he got fodderized quickly while Naruto could overwhelm her.


I agree that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke, but that doesn't mean Sasuke did not help in other ways. It's not like you could replace Sasuke with a fodder cloth sealer who had the Yin-seal and get the same results.



> Only Kakashi truly helped him. Sasuke was the least revelant member of the team and Sakura was being Sakura.


Again Kakashi's strategy only work because Sasuke's Rinnegan S-T Jutsu allowed him to swap with a clone in an instant, and Sakura was able to slip by Kaguya unnoticed and than also had the striking power to hit Kaguya down to the seal. 

You remove any of those aspects and Kakashi's strategy would not work.



> -Pretty Sure Magma+Vapor+Blue Flame can reach Amaterasu's heat.
> -She would need to be close to him to Dimension Shift him, and it's not like he will stop her to go near the Moon to cast it.
> -A Pre-Rikudo BM Naruto took a Juubi Lazer and was just fine. I fail to see Ash Bone doing much.
> -Even if she would have detected it she wouldn't dodge the clone's punch in time.


-Pretty sure is not anything credible. Kaguya had seen all of those abilities, yet she cites Sasuke's black flames as the reason the Ice-dimension-shift would not work
-Not that close to them and good luck stopping someone who can dimension shift from getting anywhere
- I'm sure P-Susano'o could also take a Juubi lazer, it's irrelevant to the level of Kaguya's attack. Rikudo-P-Susano was presented as being equal to Rikudo-BM, yet it could not take the bone spear
- Yes she would have, she literally evaded dozens of clones attacking her before



> That mean she got False Hype like Hanzo.


It took Naruto and Sasuke strongest combined jutsu w/ the help of Rikudo-Kakashi and Sakura to defeat her, there is nothing false about that. People just don't like her so they underrate her; it's a painfully obvious agenda



> Where is the proof that Gaara could control Shukaku?


The fact that he blatantly did so in the manga. I mean he couldn't control Shukaku's absolute power, but he could control up to a certain point. A point he never even remotely approached when fighting Lee.



> A Madara stronger than the one who fought Gai and self-proclamed immortal.


Which is again the Madara were talking about, so what relevance does this distinction hold.


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