# Itachi Vs Chibaku Tensei



## Bkprince33 (May 2, 2015)

in the manga, itachi needed support to bust nagato's CT, itachi however did take the time to explain to naruto and bee the plan and let CT pick up a little bit.



What if he faced off against deva path's CT and immediately went to destroy the core, what happens???


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

ah saikyou. 
imma avoid you henceforth 
you dangerous lol

how on earth does itachi destroy it easily? please humor me


----------



## Bonly (May 2, 2015)

Itachi gets crushed eventually.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 2, 2015)

If he hits the core itself with Amaterasu while its being formed in Nagato's hand, or Totsuka, or Magatama, etc. it might work. Ultra-compressed rocks made a good shield and without them...

He also could use Susano'o to endure, and then Izanagi to get around the finished Chibaku Tensei entirely, and then ambush Nagato with the Totsuka from the outside, in my opinion.​


----------



## Ghost (May 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> how on earth does itachi destroy it easily?



throw a magatama at it before it has pulled multiple layers of rock around it?


----------



## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

I don't remember Itachi having Izanagi. However, Nagato would sense him the very moment he appears.

Also, nothing indicates Totsuka can do it, nor Amaterasu. Itachim himself stated they need to use their strongest _ranged_ attack, wich by his own words, it's not Totsuka nor Amaterasu.

And even then, we have no evidence of weaker firepower being able to destroy the core, as, again, following Itachi's words, he used the word "_we_". Something that he would've done by himself if he could, instead of waiting for some time.

And we know that, if Kishimoto wanted the core to be that weak, he wouldn't have wasted the opportunity to make Itachi look good.

Therefore i don't see Magatama alone even scratching the core, though.


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

Yh any feats of proof to show that would work 

Yh great fan fic

Nothing implies it would work 

Not after with just a little rock around it . It took FRS+YM+Bijuu dama


----------



## Ghost (May 2, 2015)

Yeah, gonna want to see some proof that Magatama, Bijuudama and FRS were required to destroy it.


edit. and this is CT from Deva path not Nagato.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I don't remember Itachi having Izanagi. However, Nagato would sense him the very moment he appears.



Itachi has shown himself to be able to hide himself from sensors for ambushes or clone feints e.g. Sage Kabuto, Nagato, etc.​


LostSelf said:


> Also, nothing indicates Totsuka can do it, nor Amaterasu. Itachim himself stated they need to use their strongest _ranged_ attack, wich by his own words, it's not Totsuka nor Amaterasu.



After the core was surrounded with layers of super-compressed rocks, yeah. When formed in Nagato's hand? Maybe not.​


LostSelf said:


> And we know that, if Kishimoto wanted the core to be that weak, he wouldn't have wasted the opportunity to make Itachi look good.



The author wanted Nagato to look good as he went down, as both Bee and Naruto underperformed.​


----------



## Rocky (May 2, 2015)

Naked core is completely featless, so no one here can make any argument in favor of it or Itachi's Magatama.


----------



## Ghost (May 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Naked core is completely featless, so no one here can make any argument in favor of it or Itachi's Magatama.



Indeed. To me it just seems more probable for Magatama to be able to destroy the naked core rather than it requiring a Bijuudama, FRS and Magatama to destroy it. Feels like it's just plain overkill.


----------



## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi has shown himself to be able to hide himself from sensors for ambushes or clone feints e.g. Sage Kabuto, Nagato, etc.​



Not with a giant chakra construck like Susano'o. Nagato would feel it. Also, feinting Kabuto when he is facing two shinobis is not the same as doing it in a one on one fight, as well as ambushing Nagato, the circunstances here are different.

I think a kunai slash would be more effective.



> After the core was surrounded with layers of super-compressed rocks, yeah. When formed in Nagato's hand? Maybe not.​



The core wasn't very surrounded then they attacked. Itachi especifically said the attacks would be pulled right towards the core. Amaterasu when Nagato has the core in his hands is not possible. He felt Itachi's buildup long before to warn Bee, with enough time for Bee to attack and Nagato to protect it.

Itachi needs to prepare Amaterasu when Nagato forms the core, but he will sense that before hand and throw it. And if Itachi tries to get a timming, doing so before Nagato uses the core, he will sense it and probably opt to use another jutsu. 



> The author wanted Nagato to look good as he went down, as both Bee and Naruto underperformed.​



He already did before making team up with them to attack the core. Now, wasting an opportunity of giving Itachi (and his fans) the chance of seeing him doing such a thing by himself is another thing. 

Wouldn't you think the core is durable, Rocky? The huge pressure the rocks makes on it, as well at how fast they collide with the core should make it quite durable. I mean, it takes an amount of pressure to contain a being strong enough to resist Shinra Tensei and to create shockwaves with an arm-swing.

Maybe it's just me, but i don't see a beyond high-kage shinobi's strongest jutsu being destroyed by an attack that was blocked by some sand and rock. On top of that it couldn't scratch Tsunade, albeit that was a smaller one.

What would be the argument if Itachi's Susano'o were busted by that combination instead of the core? .

Deep inside our hearts we know the answer


----------



## Hexa (May 2, 2015)

We have no idea how strong the core is, really.   An attack like the magatama is pretty well suited against it, however, since the magatama will be accelerated and made more powerful by the core itself.


----------



## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

We can get an idea on how durable it is. Because the core itself goes through the same thing the victim suffers. All the rocks forming against the core and making a ton of pressure powerful enough to hold Kyuubi Naruto in place.

If the core were not durable, all those rocks colliding against it at such speed would just crush it and the jutsu would be useless.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2015)

Itachi cannot destroy a CT as weak as an uncentralised God Realm. Meaning anything from a centralised God Realm CT and beyond would be beyond his abilities. 

We saw what Yasaka Magatama was capable of, basically like a lot of explosive tags. That won't be enough. 
Itachi never had Bijuu Dama or Rasenshuriken type attacks, so he'd always lose to CT.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 2, 2015)

Itachi gets crushed. He can't destroy Chibaku Tensei's core alone.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 2, 2015)

Depends how quickly Amaterasu would consume the core, because that's really Itachi's best option for destroying it.

The worst case scenario is, Itachi turns Pain's small moon into a small black sun and roasts under a super-weighted bed of flaming debris after he is pulled into it.

Best case scenario is, Amaterasu destroys the core before anything significant happens to Itachi.

Or anything inbetween...


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Depends how quickly Amaterasu would consume the core, because that's really Itachi's best option for destroying it.
> 
> The worst case scenario is, Itachi turns Pain's small moon into a small black sun and roasts under a super-weighted bed of flaming debris after he is pulled into it.
> 
> ...



Apparently not quick enough seeing as Itachi was forced to use Yasaka's Magatama. 

Of course, he'd need to focus on a point, but that's be bad as the point's he'd burn would just be patched up, and the parts he isn't focusing on are also getting parts added. All this while he's being pulled towards the core. 

Makes you understand why he resorted to Yasaka's Magatama.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

^ That had more to do with Amaterasu being ineffective in penetrating the boulders surrounding the core as it did with pure speed. Yasaka Magatama seemed more effective for the situation.

 As for the topic, I'm not sure as the core doesn't seem to have much durability feats. However, I don't see Yasaka Magatama being capable of destroying the core from what we've seen against SM Kabuto.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ That had more to do with Amaterasu being ineffective in penetrating the boulders surrounding the core as it did with pure speed. Yasaka Magatama seemed more effective for the situation.



I know; Itachi being forced to focus on one point means he needs to ignore the other parts. While at the same time dealing with the fact that whatever hole he burns will always be patched up.


----------



## pluuuuffff (May 2, 2015)

Amaterasu hits matter, isn't it?

Why are u guys considering the orb as matter? In my opinion, it acts like the center of the gravity, just like Kishimoto said on databook. And, If the orb it's just a "gravity epicenter" the Amaterasu was going to pass through it.

Anyway, Itachi only analysed the CT when the rocks were already attached to the orb (i mean the first little ones). It was going to be used as a shield, for the amaterasu.

The true difference between Itachi and Nagato, in my opinion, it's the fact that he can't deal with CT.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 2, 2015)

It's not clear what Chibaku Tensei is made of. But the basis of any Ninjutsu is chakra, and Amaterasu has been shown to consume chakra (like Sasuke's Katon).


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> It's not clear what Chibaku Tensei is made of. But the basis of any Ninjutsu is chakra, and Amaterasu has been shown to consume chakra (like Sasuke's Katon).



 I believed that had more to do with Amaterasu being able to engulf any flame than it did with actually being able to consume chakra.


----------



## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

Itachi himself said his strongest ranged attack was Magatama. But like Strategoob said, Itachi would need to use Amaterasu before Nagato throws the ball. But that would require a lot of timmig and Nagato being careless.

Aside from that, nothing in his arsenal can break a sphere durable enough to whitstand tons of heavy pressure from gigantic rocks without breaking.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 2, 2015)

The flames were made of chakra; Katon is a nature alteration given to chakra.

It's not like Amaterasu has a special appetite for fire, anyway; it eats _anything_ (although seems to vary its burn rate...as the author requires).


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2015)

I don't get it, why is Amaterasu being used as a legit solution to CT when going by the mechanisms of CT and Amaterasu, it wouldn't work. Supported by the fact Itachi decided to use his logn range jutsu.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 2, 2015)

Seeing as that core can withstand the mountains that slam on top of it with enough time i gonna say itachi can't destroy it. Sticking with bijuudama+FRS+Yasaka magatama as the minimum need damage to destroy it is safe imo.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2015)

You need to have unique abilities (like Hiraishin while having big ass chakra reserves warp it away; or Hashirama's Buddha punches coupled with its elemental blasts), or super powerful jutsu (like Jinton or multiple Rasenshuriken, Bijuu Dama, Shinra Tensei, Sasuke's The Last Chidori etc).

Itachi has neither of those qualities.


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

Not enough feats to judge 
Itachi fan reach here 

I'll go with CT on this one 

YM got hardly any feats. Even drawn into the core I see no reason it should break it


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> The flames were made of chakra; Katon is a nature alteration given to chakra.
> 
> It's not like Amaterasu has a special appetite for fire, anyway; it eats _anything_ (although seems to vary its burn rate...as the author requires).



 But what implies that Amaterasu consumes chakra?

 Sure, the Katon is chakra, but it vastly resembles flames as nature alterations gives the chakra properties of it's element.

 Even then, Kishimoto outright stated that Amaterasu was burning Sasuke's flames as shown here:

prevents

 It literally burns fire.


----------



## IchLiebe (May 2, 2015)

Amaterasu was on Ei's v2 shroud and did nothing to the chakra. Itachi dies.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Amaterasu was on Ei's v2 shroud and did nothing to the chakra. Itachi dies.



prevents

 There is that, isn't there?


----------



## Hexa (May 2, 2015)

Madara's individual magatama went through Gaara's recently upgraded ultimate defense and then almost completely through Oonoki's rock golem.  Those things can be made to hit really hard, Itachi can string three of them together, and they'll be made more powerful by the acceleration of the Chibaku Tensei core itself.  

I think they're a pretty good candidate.  But, like Itachi, we don't actually have any clue what's required to destroy the core.  The core itself really doesn't need to be that tough, however (sorry, "withstand mountains" guy!).


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2015)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it is a stretch to assume Itachi's feats are comparable to _*Madara's*_. The latter has the enhancing chakra that the Rinnegan and Hashirama's cells provide i.e. it is a stretch to think we can generalise Madara's feats to Itachi's. Not even including the fact that Madara's own chakra is pretty powerful on its own.

Perhaps you could when we didn't know Hashirama's cells and the Rinnegan had potent chakra capabilities. Well... we'd still have to assume Madara's chakra quality/power would be the same as Itachi i.e. pretend he didn't have Indra's chakra. 

That's not to say Madara using the Yasaka's Magatama could destroy the core (the guy has plenty of superior alternatives). But if his is the strongest (apart from Sasuke's) we've got to use, then Itachi's....

---

The only thing we know is that you need super powerful jutsu (probably safer to throw multiple versions) to break it. The Yasaka Magatama isn't one of those types of jutsu.

Though jutsu like Jinton could take it out with one blast.

Seems like only a Gedou Dama is a jutsu which probably doesn't require that much effort to destroy a CT core. I.E. one GD can probably just go through the shell and destroy the core.


----------



## Trojan (May 2, 2015)

Madara used 4 times the amount of the ones itachi used as well.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

Comparing Madara's Yasaka Magatama to Itachi's seems ridiculous. I highly doubt Itachi's Yasaka Magatama is on par with Madara's.


----------



## Hexa (May 2, 2015)

Madara at that point was toying with the Kage still.   The magatama were a "test" to see how the kage did, and were chucked individually, shotgun-style, whereas Itachi used three as one strung-together unit.  

Certainly, going all out, Madara could trivially destroy CT cores like Sasuke could.  But, I don't think there's much reason to assume Edo Madara's V1 Susano'o is dramatically superior to Itachi's V1 Susano'o and so on for V2 etc.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

Hexa said:


> Madara at that point was toying with the Kage still.   The magatama were a "test" to see how the kage did, and were chucked individually, shotgun-style, whereas Itachi used three as one strung-together unit.



 I see no reason why Madara would hesitate to even use a powerful Yasaka Magatama considering he wanted to "gauge" how powerful Gaara's defense was. Him holding back wouldn't give him a clear enough indication of that.

 Madara did toy with the Kages, but he certainly didn't think Yasaka Magatama was enough to kill them, not when he used Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin and a direct Katon afterwards as well as the fact that Onoki, who was the frailest of them all tanked 2 meteors that would've certainly injured most ninja despite lightening it. Madara certainly believed they were resilient enough to handle what he wanted to dish out.



> Certainly, going all out, Madara could trivially destroy CT cores like Sasuke could.  But, I don't think there's much reason to assume Edo Madara's V1 Susano'o is dramatically superior to Itachi's V1 Susano'o and so on for V2 etc.



 Far greater quality of chakra would make me assume his V1 Susano'o trumps Itachi's.


----------



## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

Naruto's FRS, B's TBB, and Itachi's Magatama canceled out the core, not overpowered it. Which means the core was equivalent to all of those attacks combined.


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2015)

I still say it. If Itachi could've done it by himself, he would've.

The entire chapter was about relying on your friends to overcome bigger obstacles. And yet, the core has at least tanked huge rocks making hard pressure on it without being crushed.

It's a feat. Contrary to Itachi's magatama, whose only feat was making Kabuto cover his face and look like a exploding tags. Also, what Madara does, has nothing to do with what Itachi does.

But even if we go the route of "No feat for both", i see no reason still to assume Itachi could do it by himself. Maybe it's just me, but nothing at all points to that, so i don't know how that's debatable.

But maybe i am just being stubborn.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

I agree with turrin on this one 
Even if it's deva core we have nothing but fan bias to suggest YM destroying the core


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (May 3, 2015)

Yeesh Itachi fans. Still thinking he can solo Nagato. Still pretending that Itachi asking Naruto and bee for their strongest range Attack, wasn't a sign that he couldn't destroy CT on his own. Lol I mean why even ask for help if you can do it -_-.



This is Naruto deflecting Madara's yasaka magatama like its nothing:
he also gained Kabuto's knowledge

Also take into consideration that this is EMS Madaras yasaka, which should naturally be more powerful than itachi's own. Also notice how it's not even Narutos actual chakra cloak himself that is deflecting it, it's the weaker cloaks he gave to the people in the alliance.

Yep that's really gonna stop chibaku Tensei -_-


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I still say it. If Itachi could've done it by himself, he would've.
> 
> The entire chapter was about relying on your friends to overcome bigger obstacles. And yet, the core has at least tanked huge rocks making hard pressure on it without being crushed.



To be honest, that should really end the debate. Nothing in the entire manga ever suggested that Itachi had the firepower to take out a CT. 

(Kurama) Naruto and Bee are different stories with multiple FRS and multiple Bijuu Dama at their disposal.



Hexa said:


> But, I don't think there's much reason to assume Edo Madara's V1 Susano'o is dramatically superior to Itachi's V1 Susano'o and so on for V2 etc.



Except Madara, Hashirama and the Rinnegan provide chakra enhances. Itachi lacks that, so we've plenty of reason to assume Madara's would be dramatically superior.


----------



## Turrin (May 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> But maybe i am just being stubborn.[/COLOR]


Nah it's not you being stubborn it's being logical. When FRS, TBB, and Magatama clashed with the core they canceled each other out. If Magatama alone was capable of it, adding in FRS and TBB, would have overwhelmed the core. Also one needs to consider how pathetic it would make CT as a technique if three-tome Magatama could bust it. Itachi's 1 tome Magatama's only made small explosive tag like explosion in the Kabuto fight, three together will be stronger, but still nothing ridiculously powerful. For the Rinnegan's and Nagato's strongest technique, something of Magatama's strength being able to bust it, is absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

To add perspective, 50% KN6's Bijuu Dama could cause a lot of damage. Obviously more than Itachi's Magatama. 

It couldn't destroy CT. So we're not inclined to believe Itachi's Yasaka Magatama could do it.


----------



## Hexa (May 3, 2015)

KN6's bijuu dama exploded on the rock protecting the core and didn't reach the core at all.

The magatama don't explode.  They go through things ('travel thousands of miles').  It's a different type of damage, really, and one that's really well suited against CT because the Chibaku Tensei itself will make the attack stronger.  Ultimately, just chucking the CT core into the sky exposes the weakness of the technique -- the core attracts attacks towards it.  Later, when Madara uses the technique, he makes the Chibaku Tensei way up into the sky and then chucks the resulting celestial body down at the opponent.   

Like LostSoul said, the chapter was about _not trying to do stuff by yourself_.  From an in-universe perspective, Itachi has no idea what's required to destroy a Chibaku Tensei core, and made the  decision to have everyone chuck everything at it.  From an out-of-universe perspective, the moment was intended as a teaching lesson for Naruto.  It led to him relying on the alliance's help during the final, climatic battles, even in some cases where Naruto certainly could have done the job himself.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

@hexa fair enough maybe it might 
But Itachi YM just about punched through rock though 

So not too confident 

Also the core didn't accelrate YM in the manga 

It just drew it towards it


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2015)

Who is LostSoul? 

An in-universe perspective show Itachi being able to measure and find weak spots of jutsus quickly, followed by Naruto's comment about only getting free from it because of Kyuubi, and that's enough for Itachi to find it a threat and figure out he can't do it by himself.

Also, from a reader's perspective, Itachi couldn't do it alone. Because if Kishimoto thought he could do it alone, considering Kishi loves to "wank" his character to the point of making even Hashirama talk good about him, he would've done so.

Like Turrin and Rasen said, a simple Magatama destroying one of the strongest Rinnegan jutsu doesn't seem logical. More if we count how tough the core should be.


----------



## ShadoLord (May 3, 2015)

Itachi obviosuly fails, he doesn't have the DC to destroy Chibaku Tensei.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

If Itachi fires off a Magatama as the first thing, he actually has a decent shot @ destroying the core. He doesn't need to worry for his aim(althought we know it is perfect) and Magatama travels pretty fast, so it might just get the job done.
As for how durable the core is, and how destructive Itachi's magatama can be, there is no way to know for sure.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

Hexa said:


> KN6's bijuu dama exploded on the rock protecting the core and didn't reach the core at all.
> 
> The magatama don't explode.  They go through things ('travel thousands of miles').  It's a different type of damage, really, and one that's really well suited against CT because the Chibaku Tensei itself will make the attack stronger.  Ultimately, just chucking the CT core into the sky exposes the weakness of the technique -- the core attracts attacks towards it.  Later, when Madara uses the technique, he makes the Chibaku Tensei way up into the sky and then chucks the resulting celestial body down at the opponent.
> 
> Like LostSoul said, the chapter was about _not trying to do stuff by yourself_.  From an in-universe perspective, Itachi has no idea what's required to destroy a Chibaku Tensei core, and made the  decision to have everyone chuck everything at it.  From an out-of-universe perspective, the moment was intended as a teaching lesson for Naruto.  It led to him relying on the alliance's help during the final, climatic battles, even in some cases where Naruto certainly could have done the job himself.



And that lesson taught to Naruto was illustrated by the fact that Naruto and Bee (as they were) and Itachi were faced with a jutsu they could not deal with alone, CT. 

We don't have anything really to say Itachi's Magatama would be capable of reaching the core either. I'd use the Madara example, but the dude had Hagoromo's chakra infused with all his jutsu, so it really isn't a proper comparison.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

@miracle it's reaching really for anyone to assume rinnegan a superior dojutsu using one of the most powerful jutsu in its arsenal will be outdone by an MS jutsu so casually . Chakra quantity and qualify also have to be mentioned . Nagato has better in both respects


----------



## Sadgoob (May 3, 2015)

Itachi enhanced his MS with legendary weapons, however. So that alone evens out Rinnegan > MS logic a little. And besides, special eyes are just tools, and aren't as important as the user. 

As Bee outright said after Itachi sealed Nagato, Itachi is a brilliant ninja that's  (unlike, say, Nagato.) Moreover, "every jutsu has a weakness," and Itachi finds them.​


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2015)

By enhancing, what do you want to say? Because we have no evidence about Totsuka enhancing Susano'o other than giving it a weapon.

Aside from that, finding the weakness of a jutsu doesn't mean you can counter it. Itachi could find Juudara's, but that doesn't mean he will beat it.

I still say, the only feat Magatama has is failing to penetrate a rock-sand defense. Rock-sand defense that Susano'o busted by itself just moving even if it was weakened.

The core, on the other hand, has a very good durability feat. Therefore, like Strategos said, Amaterasu would be the best bet, but it's not long range and it's not a very secure answer either.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 3, 2015)

Amaterasu has a pretty good range feat when Itachi used it on the Cerberus. The Totsuka also extends and has really solid range. Either would work range-wise up until the ball is thrown far.​


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Amaterasu has a pretty good range feat when Itachi used it on the Cerberus. The Totsuka also extends and has really solid range. *Either would work range-wise up until the ball is thrown far.*​



That's exactly what's going to happen .

Also, i don't think Totsuka can destroy it piercing it only, the core it's tough.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

The Itachi arguments come across as trying to hard tbh.

"Itachi enhanced his MS with legendary weapons". That's a load of crap, every imperfect Susanoo has that shit. If Itachi's was unique he would've made the conscious effort to show us different. Instead we got each level 4 Susanoo has the standard Totsuka and Yata (as per the DB) but superior Uchiha like Sasuke have additional items. 

To assume it evens out Rinnegan>>>MS, you have to re-write the manga. 

Using little quotes about Itachi doesn't work either, especially when they're contradicted by the manga. No point in saying every jutsu has a weakness when you're claiming he can fight on par with someone he needed help to fight. Guess "every jutsu has a weakness" trumps the theme of the war, having help to overcome massive obstacles you cannot overcome alone.

However this Itachi reaching means nothing as nothing adequate, or convincing, can ever be suggested that he could take even the weakest CT we've ever seen.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Itachi arguments come across as trying to hard tbh.
> 
> "Itachi enhanced his MS with legendary weapons". That's a load of crap, every imperfect Susanoo has that shit. If Itachi's was unique he would've made the conscious effort to show us different. Instead we got each level 4 Susanoo has the standard Totsuka and Yata (as per the DB) but superior Uchiha like Sasuke have additional items.
> 
> ...



Sasuke and Madara had Totsuka and Yata ? 

Evidence ?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke and Madara had Totsuka and Yata ?
> 
> Evidence ?



Databook 3 says Susanoo comes with those items. Kishi doesn't repeat ocular powers we know a eye has, unless the plot calls for it. That's why we didn't see Madara casually bust out some Shinra Tenseis and Demon Realm missiles. In fact that's why we only saw CT used when the plot called for MT to be used.


----------



## Hexa (May 3, 2015)

Ultimately, the strongest doujutsu in terms of direct killing ability was Sasuke's bijuu-enhanced Susano'o.  Barring that, though, it's MS Kakashi's Susano'o.

The Rinnegan adds additional abilities on top of and enhances the MS's abilities.  If gaining the six-tomoe Rinnegan meant that Sasuke lost his MS abilities, it would have been a downgrade.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

Since when does gaining the next level of one's Doujutsu make them lose the powers of the previous form?


----------



## Hexa (May 4, 2015)

It doesn't.  The point is that the strongest Rinnegan technique we saw was _Susano'o_.   Certainly the technique in both the MS and Rinnegan form, from some users, is trivially able to deal with a naked CT core from Deva Path.  One might need to "even out" the Rinnegan difference if it was a scenario with an MS Susano'o vs a Rinnegan Susano'o, but not in this scenario.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Databook 3 says Susanoo comes with those items.


It actually makes no such generalization, and even if it did, then it would make sense considering Itachi was the only Susano'o user around so databook would explain only his powers.




> Kishi doesn't repeat ocular powers we know a eye has, unless the plot calls for it.


You thought Sasuke had Tsukiyomi 
Good old days 



> That's why we didn't see Madara casually bust out some Shinra Tenseis and Demon Realm missiles. In fact that's why we only saw CT used when the plot called for MT to be used.



Lol, what a load of horse shit. 
There may be several reasons why Madara didn't use ST or any other stuff. He either didn't feel like it, or just couldn't. We were explained later on that Rinnegan's abilities require experience and mastery to use, thats why Sasuke was using CT or his own unique STJ easily but he had trouble using Preta's absorbtion(most basic ability). (3)


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2015)

Hexa said:


> It doesn't.  The point is that the strongest Rinnegan technique we saw was _Susano'o_.   Certainly the technique in both the MS and Rinnegan form, from some users, is trivially able to deal with a naked CT core from Deva Path.  One might need to "even out" the Rinnegan difference if it was a scenario with an MS Susano'o vs a Rinnegan Susano'o, but not in this scenario.



Strongest depends on what you mean. Overall battle capability, perfect Susanoo without a doubt. Especially one enhanced by the Rinnegan.

But, you're right. We digress, this isn't such a scenario where we debate Doujutsu vs Doujutsu, overall. Nor is it a MS Susanoo vs Rinnegan Susanoo... but that makes little to no sense since Rinnegan Susanoo involves having PS and MS doesn't.

This is a scenario about _Itachi's_ imperfect Susanoo vs CT. Now, its a shame, because we've only got Madara's Rinnegan Susanoo to compare the Magatama, which obviously isn't a proper comparison. 

So we've probably got to go by Itachi's own display, or if deemed reasonable, Madara's skeletal Susanoo's linked Magatama.

None of which seem to make it easier to lean towards the Itachi side in this thread.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It actually makes no such generalization, and even if it did, then it would make sense considering Itachi was the only Susano'o user around so databook would explain only his powers.



Yet Kishi didn't feel the need to disprove it in the manga thereafter. That entry covers all imperfect Susanoo.



> You thought Sasuke had Tsukiyomi
> Good old days



He does, the manga makes it clear. To this day, I'm puzzled why you ignore the clear manga panels.



> Lol, what a load of horse shit.
> There may be several reasons why Madara didn't use ST or any other stuff. He either didn't feel like it, or just couldn't. We were explained later on that Rinnegan's abilities require experience and mastery to use, thats why Sasuke was using CT or his own unique STJ easily but he had trouble using Preta's absorbtion(most basic ability). (3)



"Couldn't" is massive reaching on your end considering he taught Obito the jutsu was was the original user. 

Kishi has shown he doesn't tend to repeat powers he's established certain eyes have, unless the plot demands it. So no, I'm not going to make the assumption that the original Rinnegan user couldn't use jutsu like Shinra Tensei because it gives false hope to the notion that Itachi's imperfect Susanoo is unique.

You've only got faulty notions backed up by faulty claims to assert Itachi's Susanoo is unique. Nothing from the manga or databooks suggested show. In fact, the author himself didn't feel the need to establish that. 
Next you're going to tell me not all MS have Amaterasu.


----------



## Ashi (May 4, 2015)

If Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, I'm a monkey's uncle


----------



## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Hexa said:


> Ultimately, the strongest doujutsu in terms of direct killing ability was Sasuke's bijuu-enhanced Susano'o.  Barring that, though, it's MS Kakashi's Susano'o.


Uhh...no. I'm sorry Hexa, but this is ridiculous. The strongest Dojutsu technique is Chibaku-Tensei, I.E. the Jutsu that created the fucking moon and was able to contain the massive power of Kaguya. 

All techniques can be powered up by the amount and quality of chakra used. Grant a Jutsu like Susano'o a great enough quantity of quality chakra, and you end up with Susano'o like Sasuke's or Kakashi's. However both pale in comparison to the Chibaku-Tensei that is able to be formed with same quantity and quality of chakra. I.E. give Sasuke all-nine Bijuu and he's able to produce Indra's arrow Susano'o, which is still nowhere close to what all nine-Bijuu Chibaku Tensei is like. 



> If gaining the six-tomoe Rinnegan meant that Sasuke lost his MS abilities, it would have been a downgrade.


I'm sorry but what in the actual fuck. Rinnegan allowed Sasuke to capture all nine-Bijuu casually w/ Chibaku-Tensei and draw all of their chakra into his Jutsu. If he lost MS he wouldn't have Susano'o, but he'd still be able to manipulate gravity to the extent where he can form Chibaku Tensei anywhere and contain the raw might of 50% Kurama casually. He'd still have the ability to teleport swap through space and time, and to manipulate and control all 9 Bijuu's chakra casually. He'd still have the ability to absorb chakra through HG-realm. How in any semblance of logic you think EMS-Susano'o measures up to that, to the extent where he'd be downgraded w/o it, is just absolutely baffling.

And beyond that, Sasuke only had Rinnegan for like a hour, even Kurama comments how Sasuke's not nearly proficient enough with Rinnegan to use it properly. While he's had tons of experience with Susano'o. If Sasuke was more experienced w/ Rinnegan he'd be able to use all 6 Paths at the same time on top of what he was already capable off, CST, CT, Bombatsu Sousou, all 5 elements, Gododama, and so on. I just can't stress enough how absolutely absurd your position is.



> It doesn't. The point is that the strongest Rinnegan technique we saw was Susano'o.


How you think Susano'o is stronger than Chibaku Tensei, Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal, Tengai Shinsei, Mugen Tsukuyomi, Shin: Jukai Kōtan, Amenominaka, Bōchō Gudōdama, and Banbutsu Sōzō, is so far from reality, that I just can't even.



> Certainly the technique in both the MS and Rinnegan form, from some users, is trivially able to deal with a naked CT core from Deva Path.


Yeah, because they have vastly greater quantity and quality of chakra, than Deva-Path. Given Deva-Path the same quantity and quality of chakra, and they get raped by Chibaku-Tensei.



> One might need to "even out" the Rinnegan difference if it was a scenario with an MS Susano'o vs a Rinnegan Susano'o, but not in this scenario.


The situation is a VASTLY more powerful Dojutsu and Dojutsu technique compared to Susano'o, used by someone who has VASTLY superior quantity and quality of chakra compared to Itachi. That's the situation and it's why Itachi needed the help of Hachibi's TBB and FRS, two massively powerful techniques, to offset that massive difference.


----------



## Rocky (May 4, 2015)

The Truth Seekers come from the Rinnegan?

If that were the case, then Naruto wouldn't have had them.


----------



## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Truth Seekers come from the Rinnegan?
> 
> If that were the case, then Naruto wouldn't have had them.



It comes from both. The Rinnegan can grant it and so can Naruto having all Bijuu. This is because they are Kekkai Mora, which comes down to having multiple affinities. Rinnegan gives a personal all affinities, and so does having all 9 Bijuu [and RSM?].


----------



## Rocky (May 4, 2015)

Why didn't Sasuke use them then? I understand the non-mastery thing, but Naruto was also new to his power-up.


----------



## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why didn't Sasuke use them then? I understand the non-mastery thing, but Naruto was also new to his power-up.



"With the power given to him by Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki, Naruto is bestowed the innate ability to grasp the nature of chakra and comprehend all universal things."

Sasuke had to learn on his own.


----------



## Hexa (May 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Uhh...no. I'm sorry Hexa, but this is ridiculous. The strongest Dojutsu technique is Chibaku-Tensei, I.E. the Jutsu that created the fucking moon and was able to contain the massive power of Kaguya.


That's the six-paths Chibaku Tensei, a technique that specifically needs two people to do, one not needing a doujutsu at all.  The regular Chibaku Tensei is what we saw Juubi Madara use (and what Sasuke used his Susano'o against).

A lot of the more powerful stuff, like Kaguya's kekkei moura and gudoudama, aren't doujutsu.  Amenominaka is more impressive in what it does, but it's a utility doujutsu.  I mean strongest in terms of direct killing ability, like I said.


----------



## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Hexa said:


> That's the six-paths Chibaku Tensei, a technique that specifically needs two people to do, one not needing a doujutsu at all.  The regular Chibaku Tensei is what we saw Juubi Madara use (and what Sasuke used his Susano'o against).
> .


It requires the Yin and Yang Tattoo. But it's still a Dojutsu technique Hexa. 



> A lot of the more powerful stuff, like Kaguya's kekkei moura and gudoudama, aren't doujutsu. .


They are abilities granted by the Rinnegan.

Gudoudama is possible because the Rinnegan grants all elemental affinities and Yin/Yang affinities.

The Kekkai Mora's are possible for the same reason.



> Amenominaka is more impressive in what it does, but it's a utility doujutsu.


Amenominaka's killing potential is off the charts stupid. Literally all one has to do is teleport someone else to Acid World and their dead, if not from the Acid, from starvation. Same thing with Desert World, Lava World, and so on.



> I mean strongest in terms of direct killing ability, like I said


Okay cool. 

So Mugen Tsukuyomi literally can't be defended w/o Rinnegan and can kill anyone. 
Cho Gudoudama can destroy entire dimensions and recreate them
Chibaku-Tensei can casually decimate Bijuu and can seal the strongest entity in the verse
Amenominaka kills anyone by simply dropping them into an inescapable prison to starve to death
Tengai Shinsei even when used by just Edo Madara dropped two massive meteors
Kekkai Mora are nigh unstoppable


There is no rational argument for Susano'o being better than these techniques. 

Susano'o w/o Rinnegan power auto looses to Mugen Tsukuyomi
Susano'o being a Ninjutsu is powerless against Cho Gudoudama
Chibaku Tensei easily contains Susano'o considering it traped Kaguya
Amenominaka teleports Susano'o to another dimension where the user dies
Tengai Shinsei drops the moon on Susano'o
Kekkai Mora have directly trolled Susano'o's defense

Susano'o isn't even the most powerful Sharingan Technique, Kotoamatsukami is.


----------



## Hexa (May 4, 2015)

That's a very weird and broad definition of "doujutsu".  I'm pretty sure if the definition of Rinnegan doujutsu is "an ability that the Rinnegan makes possible to use but isn't really necessary to use", then  almost every jutsu in the series is also a Rinnegan doujutsu.


----------



## ARGUS (May 4, 2015)

Wiithout the support from bee and naruto, there was no way itachi couldve taken out the core, 
the thought of YM or AMaterasu even being mentioned is pathetic consiering CT tanked a KN6 TBB with little to no damage, and this is the same attack which has superior DC to everything in itachs arsenal 

Itachi gets sucked inside the core and susannoo gets constantly bombarded by rocks till it gets restrained to an extent where itachi would get suffocated and unable to even breath let alone maintain susanoo let alone use susanooo to take out the core, 

and the longer he takes the harder it gets for him,


----------



## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Hexa said:


> That's a very weird and broad definition of "doujutsu".  I'm pretty sure if the definition of Rinnegan doujutsu is "an ability that the Rinnegan makes possible to use but isn't really necessary to use", then  almost every jutsu in the series is also a Rinnegan doujutsu.


The funny thing about this argument is Sharingan is clearly not necessary to use Susano'o as Madara proved in the War-Arc when he used Susano'o w/o eyes. The fact of the matter is nothing says any of the Dojutsu techniques are impossible to be gained one way or another w/o a Dojutsu. All that's ever said is that the Dojutsu makes these techniques easier to acquire and that's exactly what Rinnegan does as far as Kekkai-Mora abilities, by granting the user all affinities and the ability to use any technique. 

However it doesn't even matter if we exclude those Kekkai Mora Jutsu, for whatever unfair reason, the techniques Rinnegan "grants" are still WAY more powerful than Susano'o. Again Mugen-Tsukuyomi alone is unbeatable unless someone has Rinnegan, that alone blows Susano'o out of the water. Rinbo is another technique that is unbeatable unless you have Rinnegan or RSM. Amenominaka is just plain unbeatable, unless the user is not going for the kill. Chibaku-Tensei is the strongest technique in the entire manga by a mile.

So regardless of what definition you wish to go by, you are still so far off from reality with this claim that Susano'o has the greater killing potential than the Rinnegan techniques, it's absurd and you must know that.


----------



## Trojan (May 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It comes from both. The Rinnegan can grant it and so can Naruto having all Bijuu. This is because they are Kekkai Mora, which comes down to having multiple affinities. Rinnegan gives a personal all affinities, and so does having all 9 Bijuu [and RSM?].



The Gedu Damas do not come with the Rinnegan, and that's why no Rinnegan user was able to use them by it alone. Having all 5 natures does not grant X person that either as you don't see Hiruzen or the other characters who have all 5 of them & Yin and Yang being able to use it.

The only characters who have them were all the Juubi's jinchuuriki more or less. U_U


----------



## Turrin (May 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The Gedu Damas do not come with the Rinnegan, and that's why no Rinnegan user was able to use them by it alone.



First off all Rinnegan may have been able to use Gododamas, if any application of the Black-Element was the Black-Rods and Black-Zetsu. Which is my personal belief. 

However excluding theories, not all Rinnegan users could use the Rinnegan to the same extent, and that's because they lacked the chakra quality and quantity to do so. So some Rinnegan users being unable to use Gododamas, while others with superior chakra quantity and quality can, tells us nothing besides, the obvious fact that they lack the quantity or quality of chakra to  production of Gododams. 



> Having all 5 natures does not grant X person that either as you don't see Hiruzen or the other characters who have all 5 of them & Yin and Yang being able to use it.


No one but Rinnegan users and Naruto due to all 9 Bijuu have all 5 affinities and Yin/Yang affinities. There is a major difference between being able to use all a nature alterations and actually having an affinity for that element. Base-Naruto's affinity is Wind, but he can learn to use other elements that are not his affinity. Hiruzen's affinity is likely Katon, but he can use other elements that are not his affinity.

The difference between an element that is someone's affinity and one that is not, is that Jutsu from ones elemental affinity are easier to learn and tend to be more powerful, than same jutsu used w/o an affinity. Furthermore it's by having more than one affinity that elemental fusions become possible. Kekkai Mora are the fusions of 4 to 5 elements, which are only possible via a person who has 4-5 affinities. Which again only Rinnegan or multiple Bijuu make possible.



> The only characters who have them were all the Juubi's jinchuuriki more or less. U_U


No the only characters that had them were ones with all 5 Affinities and Yin/Yang affinities, while also having a suitable quantity and quality of chakra, as well as skill. It just so happens that only applies to the Juubi Jins and Naruto, because they are the only ones that meat all criteria.

Other characters have the skill and all the affinities thx to Rinnegan, but may or may not lack the quantity or quality of chakra depending on whether the Black-Chakra Rods are a variant or not.


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

-black zetsu is made by Kaguya who is emerged with the Juubi, and can use the Gedu-dama. The black rods, have nothing to do with Gedu-dama other than them being black. 

and who are those good-enough Rinnegan users in your opinion? Because even madara, who reached almost the highest level possible with obtaining all 3 Rinnegans, the Juubi, the Tree, SM, both Uchiha/Senju cells can NOT produce those things. How do you explain that? 

As Minato stated, they existed by themselves, and Madara (or the others for that matter) can't use other ones if they lose them. That's why when Minato weakened Madara's offensive and defensive power by removing them, madara was never able to use any latter on. 

The same is true with Narudo who kept losing them, until he only had 3 Gedu-damas against Sasuke, and was not able to use any more. *With the fact of them having all 5 elements and Yin & Yang being remained.*


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yet Kishi didn't feel the need to disprove it in the manga thereafter. That entry covers all imperfect Susanoo.
> [


There is nothing to disprove. Itachi's Susano'o has those items 



> He does, the manga makes it clear. To this day, I'm puzzled why you ignore the clear manga panels.


Haha show me Sasuke using Tsukiyomi. 



> "Couldn't" is massive reaching on your end considering he taught Obito the jutsu was was the original user.


Madara died shortly after he gained rinnegan. It is possible that he didn't have much time to practice it. 



> Kishi has shown he doesn't tend to repeat powers he's established certain eyes have, unless the plot demands it. So no, I'm not going to make the assumption that the original Rinnegan user couldn't use jutsu like Shinra Tensei because it gives false hope to the notion that Itachi's imperfect Susanoo is unique.


Sasuke was a stronger Rinnegan user than the fake Rinnegan user Nagato and yet he couldn't use preta's absorbtion alongside with other jutsu, which Nagato was able to.
There are no assumptions here munboy, just facts.



> You've only got faulty notions backed up by faulty claims to assert Itachi's Susanoo is unique. Nothing from the manga or databooks suggested show. In fact, the author himself didn't feel the need to establish that.


All Susano'o are unique. They all have different appereance and weapons. 
I am simply baffled by your lack of comprehensive abilities.



> Next you're going to tell me not all MS have Amaterasu.



I don't need to tell you that.

But If you think all MS users have Amaterasu, then you can start off by showing me Obito's Amaterasu.



Turrin said:


> The funny thing about this argument is Sharingan is clearly not necessary to use Susano'o as Madara proved in the War-Arc when he used Susano'o w/o eyes.



Susano'o isn't a technique that is "shot" through the eyes. I think simply "awakening" techniques in both eyes is the only requirement to unlock Susano'o. After that, it can be used whether you have the eyes or not.  Since it doesn't use the eyes as a medium.

Itachi too was able to use Susano'o after the light left both of his eyes.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

gotta agree with grimm on this one 
not all MS users have amaterasu or tskuyomi 
considering sasuke, obito and kakashi dont have tskuyomi

and madara doesnt have amaterasu


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 5, 2015)

i find it interesting that nobody brought up the fact that, deva's ct should be much weaker then nagato's considering he absorbed bee's chakra.



I think a case can be made for itachi busting it, if we find a way to scale nagato's abilities to deva paths thoughts?


----------



## Turrin (May 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> -black zetsu is made by Kaguya who is emerged with the Juubi, and can use the Gedu-dama. The black rods, have nothing to do with Gedu-dama other than them being black.
> 
> and who are those good-enough Rinnegan users in your opinion? Because even madara, who reached almost the highest level possible with obtaining all 3 Rinnegans, the Juubi, the Tree, SM, both Uchiha/Senju cells can NOT produce those things. How do you explain that?
> 
> ...


I repeat they did not have the skill  or the chakra quantity/quality


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2015)

When we're going to consider generalising *Edo Rinnegan* Madara's Yasaka Magatama feat to *MS* Itachi. Or even think that Amaterasu has some hope of beating CT considering the jutsu's mechanisms. 
It obviously says something about the strength of the stance. 

This is basically Rinnegan vs Mangekyou Sharingan, except it is more centralised to CT vs Mangekyou Sharingan.


*Spoiler*: _Response to Turrin's Gedo Dama point_ 



Turrin, Gedou Dama are part of Rikudou Senjutsu i.e. without that form of Senjutsu, you can't have that jutsu. Even if you're a Rinnegan users. I guess in theory, a Senjutsu Rinnegan user could form it. But the Six Paths Senjutsu, Naruto's seal, "allows the user to quickly grasp the nature of chakra with the skill of a well-studied, highly sensitive master", maybe a Rinnegan user whose already got those attributes could do it?





*Spoiler*: _My take on the Rinnegan-Sharingan debate that was brought up earlier but may not be completely relevant_ 



I'm loling at this Doujutsu strength debate. Trying to use one jutsu to say one jutsu's stronger than the other is basically trying to avoid what makes the Rinnegan>>>MS.

Now, you can commence the jutsu dick measuring (Susanoo vs X Rinnegan jutsu) and carry on being wrong. 

Or look at what actually makes the Rinnegan a superior eye.

With the Rinnegan the user is immune to Ninjutsu, that's a done deal. No matter how much you try to deny it, it has come from the manga several times. If you're still denying by now, then I dunno what to tell you. The fact Hashirama had to use a brand new Mokuton jutsu (new design and shit) specifically to counter the Preta Path says a lot. 
Even then it isn't clear, we don't know if Madara was caught when the Preta barrier was done. Either way, unless you're talking about Hashirama, or certain characters like Naruto or Kabuto. There's no beating Preta Path with Ninjutsu.

Combine that with the databook III which confirms what we could gather from the manga: Demon Realm overwhelms its foes in Taijutsu. 
And there's honestly no real strategy when Ninjutsu and Taijutsu are out of the picture. 

Genjutsu, since we learnt the Sharingan is basically a diluted Sharingan, we know where the Rinnegan stands. Especially since we consider a MS would have an easier time than the Sharingan to resist Tsukuyomi; the Rinnegan would have it even easier than the EMS.

So really, automatically when you look at the functions of both Doujutsu, the Rinnegan beats the Sharingan in all aspects. 

That's not even including jutsu like ST/BT which catches the user off-guard. Nor does it include Limbo where you NEED either the Juubi's Senjutsu or the Rinnegan itself to stand a chance against. 

Basically at this point in the manga end, if you're still trying to make the MS look stronger in some way, you're fighting a losing battle. 







Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is nothing to disprove. Itachi's Susano'o has those items



As does every other Susanoo which reaches that level. 



> Haha show me Sasuke using Tsukiyomi.



You saw it against Bee, so I'm not going to bother linking it to you because you're well aware of the pages you're denying. 

The databook 2 also says the MS in general gives Tsukuyomi; you can't even get Susanoo without it.

The only exceptions are those MS which seem to have Senju cells infused with them.



> Madara died shortly after he gained rinnegan. It is possible that he didn't have much time to practice it.



The dude taught Obito the jutsu: he knew them. 



> Sasuke was a stronger Rinnegan user than the fake Rinnegan user Nagato and yet he couldn't use preta's absorbtion alongside with other jutsu, which Nagato was able to.
> There are no assumptions here munboy, just facts.



Sasuke didn't obviously have the time to master it. Madara had the Rinnegan for some time was was proficient enough to summon Gedo stakes and the Gedo Mazo.

You're seriously reaching by trying to say _Nagato_ had more Rinnegan skill than Madara. All just to try and make a false case about Itachi's Susanoo being a unique Susanoo.



> All Susano'o are unique. They all have different appereance and weapons.
> I am simply baffled by your lack of comprehensive abilities.



I'm baffled by your argument's lack of substance. The only thing different with standard MS are their eye design which is reflected by their Susanoo design. 

Databooks and manga show, that apart from Hashirama influenced ones, they're the same.



> But If you think all MS users have Amaterasu, then you can start off by showing me Obito's Amaterasu.



Obito's MS was superior to all the standard MS users. 

See, like I told Gooby, all Itachi arguments involve either ignoring or distorting manga panels to _force_ them to work. 

For instance you're seriously trying to use the guy whose MS was altered due to having Hashirama's cells to reflect all Uchiha who awaken their MS without Hashirama's cells.

This ignoring/distorting evidence doesn't make any Itachi argument credible. 

You can keep denying Sasuke having Tsukuyomi. However you have two databooks working against you and the fact Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Bee with his Tsukuyomi eye. The guy even held his eye when the illusion failed, just like how Itachi did when his failed. 

At this point, it should really be clear.

I'll wait till you stop holding onto fanon facts which are "obvious" and actually consider the facts which have been pointing to all _standard_, unaltered Uchiha having the same MS trinity. Except the talented ones who can add Kagutsuchi to their list.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 5, 2015)

Amaterasu repelled Kabuto's sage jutsu. It's not impossible to think it would nullify CT.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Amaterasu repelled Kabuto's sage jutsu. It's not impossible to think it would nullify CT.



When you explain how repelling one jutsu which is completely unrelated to CT adds substance to the notion Itachi can overcome Chibaku Tensei, that would help.

Now you'd also need to explain why Itachi himself didn't think about this.


----------



## RedChidori (May 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi cannot destroy a CT as weak as an uncentralised God Realm. Meaning anything from a centralised God Realm CT and beyond would be beyond his abilities.
> 
> We saw what Yasaka Magatama was capable of, basically like a lot of explosive tags. That won't be enough.
> Itachi never had Bijuu Dama or Rasenshuriken type attacks, so he'd always lose to CT.



This pretty much.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As does every other Susanoo which reaches that level.


Scans ? 



> You saw it against Bee, so I'm not going to bother linking it to you because you're well aware of the pages you're denying.


It was just a sharingan genjutsu. Sasuke doesn't have Tsukiyomi, Danzo and Obito made it clear. also Tsukiyomi's name is mentioned whenever Itachi uses it, any idea why Sasuke never once uttered the word "Tsukiyomi" ? Because we know that he keeps saying "Amaterasu" or "Kagutsuchi" whenever he uses those techniques.



> The databook 2 also says the MS in general gives Tsukuyomi; you can't even get Susanoo without it.
> 
> The only exceptions are those MS which seem to have Senju cells infused with them.


Itachi was the only MS user during databook 2. So contextually, yes, MS gives Tsukiyomi, because the only MS user has Tsukiyomi.
Not that hard to grasp really 



> The dude taught Obito the jutsu: he knew them.


What did he teach Obito ? 



> Sasuke didn't obviously have the time to master it. Madara had the Rinnegan for some time was was proficient enough to summon Gedo stakes and the Gedo Mazo.


And Sasuke was able to summon 9 CT's simultaneously, without even having time to practice it.
And yet there were some stuff he wasn't able to do, apparently.



> You're seriously reaching by trying to say _Nagato_ had more Rinnegan skill than Madara. All just to try and make a false case about Itachi's Susanoo being a unique Susanoo.


I am not reaching, you are basically reaching by trying to use absence of evidence for evidence. Showing you there are various explanations to why Madara may have not used certain Rinnegan Jutsus.



> I'm baffled by your argument's lack of substance. The only thing different with standard MS are their eye design which is reflected by their Susanoo design.



Again, we've seen different stages of Susano'o from different people. As the Susano'o starts to take shape, they all looked different, and they all had different weapons. Madara's versions had curved swords, Sasuke had a bow and an arrow and an enton sword, Itachi has a sword that comes out of a sake gourd. They are all completely different visually, and the only "legendary" item status was granted to Itachi's sword and shield.

Its not hard to understand.



> Databooks and manga show, that apart from Hashirama influenced ones, they're the same.


Show me 2 identical Susano'o and I'll concede.



> Obito's MS was superior to all the standard MS users.



Ok, what about Shisui. Why did he have 2 Koto in both eyes ? 



> See, like I told Gooby, all Itachi arguments involve either ignoring or distorting manga panels to _force_ them to work.


Well at least we are trying to work with manga panels.

You are simply going by your delusions which have nothing to do with manga.



> For instance you're seriously trying to use the guy whose MS was altered due to having Hashirama's cells to reflect all Uchiha who awaken their MS without Hashirama's cells.


I have no idea what you'r talking about.



> This ignoring/distorting evidence doesn't make any Itachi argument credible.


All I've done is to quote the manga or the databook. 
You on the otherhand, have explanation for everything which don't have much to do with whats in the manga or the databook.



> You can keep denying Sasuke having Tsukuyomi. However you have two databooks working against you and the fact Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Bee with his Tsukuyomi eye. The guy even held his eye when the illusion failed, just like how Itachi did when his failed.


Databook can't expand further than what is shown in the manga. In DB 2 and 3, Itachi was the only MS user, so obviosuly the MS powers displayed in the databook were his. 
Except for Kakashi's Kamui, which was presented as a technique unique to him, and that it was unlocked via training(which is pure bullshit).

Also, Sasuke held his eye after he subdued C with his 3 tomoe genjutsu.
You are trying to reach, but  sadly it is too far poor munboy.



> I'll wait till you stop holding onto fanon facts which are "obvious" and actually consider the facts which have been pointing to all _standard_, unaltered Uchiha having the same MS trinity. Except the talented ones who can add Kagutsuchi to their list.


Ok so altered Uchiha don't have Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi or Itachi's items. 
Talented ones have kagutsuchi or some additional jutsu. 

Who do you think has the identical MS arsenal of Itachi ? With you leaving out basically, Obito, Sasuke, Madara, the only MS users left are Izuna and Shisui. We both know that Shisui's eye power is KotoAmatsukami for both eyes. We don't know what Izuna had.

Do you actually have any credible evidence to any of your claims ?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you actually have any credible evidence to any of your claims ?



The manga and databook entries you've been linked to many times. If _at this point_ you still choose not to believe the evidence you've been shown multiple times before and have access to.

Then this debate's futile since you've already got your mind made up. 

You're free to argue Itachi's Susanoo is a unique one. But you'd be wrong.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The manga and databook entries you've been linked to many times. If _at this point_ you still choose not to believe the evidence you've been shown multiple times before and have access to.
> 
> Then this debate's futile since you've already got your mind made up.
> 
> You're free to argue Itachi's Susanoo is a unique one. But you'd be wrong.



Actually you haven't proven any evidence to any of your claims, or rebuttals to any of my arguments.

And yes I'll freely argue that Itachi's Susano'O is unique to him, just like other Susano'o are unique to their respective users and I'll be right. I know it, and everybody who read the manga knows it. Only you don't know it, and believe me the rest of the world can live with that.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually you haven't proven any evidence to any of your claims, or rebuttals to any of my arguments.



We've this debate before, no-matter how clear the evidence, you always use less credible ones. 

So I'm not regurgitating the same evidence you're well aware off.



> And yes I'll freely argue that Itachi's Susano'O is unique to him, just like other Susano'o are unique to their respective users and I'll be right. I know it, and everybody who read the manga knows it. Only you don't know it, and believe me the rest of the world can live with that.



Except the manga and databooks, particularly the latter say you're wrong.


----------



## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Sorry Munboy 
Sasuke does not have tskuyomi 
this is confirmed again in the cave against kabuto where sasuke the jutsu outlined is MS genjutsu and not tskuyomi

also enton manipulation in right eye and amaterasu in left eye. 

itachi also doesn't have susanoo arrows nor can itachi manipulate enton. Madara basically never showed his MS jutsu so we have no idea what jutsu he actually held 

SO no tskuyomi at all for sasuke 

not that it matters rinnegan>>>>>>>>>>>>>MS


----------



## Bloo (May 11, 2015)

I'm not arguing one way or another, but we don't really have much to go off of. I'll propose arguments for both sides:

*"Itachi can destroy the core by himself."*

Affirmative Side: Itachi was forced to sit and explain the situation to Naruto and Bee so that he could actually teach them something about how to critically deduce a stressful situation. In that time, the core grew stronger because it was gaining protection from the rubble being piled onto it. Without Naruto and/or Bee, he wouldn't have to do that and could destroy it earlier on before it builds up protection.

Opposing Side: Itachi said that they "needed" to use their strongest ranged attacks to destroy the core. Therefore, he was admitting that he couldn't have done it on his own.

My Opinion: Itachi may or may not have been able to take it down on his own. However, we don't know hardly anything. First of all, the opposing side using Itachi's use of the word "need" is entirely illogical. It would be stupid for Itachi to suggest that he try on his own and if it isn't destroyed then they join in. No, it was a drastic situation and it was only logical that they all do it together as a safety measure. That doesn't ensure that all three attacks needed to be used. That mathematically and logically doesn't work. However, while I do see that the affirmative side is more overall logical, it still doesn't provide any details as to whether Itachi could effectively destroy it because there isn't much evidence for it. Simply, we don't know. And you can provide an opinion but to say there's ample evidence in the manga is both illogical and inaccurate.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry Munboy
> Sasuke does not have tskuyomi
> this is confirmed again in the cave against kabuto where sasuke the jutsu outlined is MS genjutsu and not tskuyomi
> 
> ...



We saw the jutsu against Bee. 
Sasuke's normal Genjutsu is strong enough to be on par with Itachi's Tsukuyomi. It doesn't negate what we saw with Bee. 

Enton manipulation is an ability Sasuke showed after showing Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu against Bee, and Susanoo against the Raikage.

We know Susanoo can have some unique weapons up to the third stage, drills, swords, arrows etc. However Itachi's has none... all Susanoo (going by Sasuke and Itachi) can form a sword and a shield when needed. 

Now all Susanoo from the fourth level onwards have precisely the same items aside from the ability to use some unique items they possessed. Shisui was a special case due to possessing Hashirama's chakra/cells (refer to Ao's input), Madara and Sasuke were Indra transmigrants. 

Itachi was an average MS user. So he'd have the average 3 jutsu, not have his normal Genjutsu amped to Madara-Sasuke levels. 

However, we digress. The fact we had take this to whether Sasuke has Tsukuyomi or not means that neither of us think Itachi can do anything to CT. 
So we can probably end this topic here and continue that MS Sasuke discussions through VM, or a relevant thread..


----------



## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We saw the jutsu against Bee.
> Sasuke's normal Genjutsu is strong enough to be on par with Itachi's Tsukuyomi. It doesn't negate what we saw with Bee.



danzo firmly disagrees. he calls sasuke genjutsu far beneath itachi's and uses the comparison heaven and earth. lol  itachi tskuyomi is so far above its not funny

everytime tskuyomi has been used in the manga. the caption tskuyomi was written on panel. please show me where sasuke tskuyomi caption is when he used it against bee



> Enton manipulation is an ability Sasuke showed after showing Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu against Bee, and Susanoo against the Raikage.



this contradicts what C said. sasuke right eye is manipulation while left is amaterasu



> We know Susanoo can have some unique weapons up to the third stage, drills, swords, arrows etc. However Itachi's has none... all Susanoo (going by Sasuke and Itachi) can form a sword and a shield when needed.



sasuke said all is needed for susanoo. is awakening both abilities in MS. something he said after learning enton manipulation. 



> Now all Susanoo from the fourth level onwards have precisely the same items aside from the ability to use some unique items they possessed. Shisui was a special case due to possessing Hashirama's chakra/cells (refer to Ao's input), Madara and Sasuke were Indra transmigrants.



 EMS madara is special case? because he showed no ability implied or otherwise to use amaterasu



> Itachi was an average MS user. So he'd have the average 3 jutsu, not have his normal Genjutsu amped to Madara-Sasuke levels.



lol fan fic right there



> However, we digress. The fact we had take this to whether Sasuke has Tsukuyomi or not means that neither of us think Itachi can do anything to CT.
> So we can probably end this topic here and continue that MS Sasuke discussions through VM, or a relevant thread..



well sasuke doesn't have it. u made it up for no reason. not even sure why. 

again like I said do show me a tskuyomi caption when sasuke uses MS. and explain why danzo compares sasuke genjutsu to be very weak compared to itachi tskuyomi

sure I take it you concede till you can show a caption of sasuke using tskuyomi with the caption tskuyomi

It's A weak genjutsu that doesn't last long

notice the lack of tskuyomi caption when sasuke uses his genjutsu compared to when itachi uses tskuyomi


----------



## EmilyEvelan (May 11, 2015)

This IS still a Itachi vs Chibaku Tensei thread right?
Here's what I think.
Itachi's Amaterasu would have destroyed the Chibaku Tensei eventually, but not before he dies himself from the pull. The reason I say that is because Amaterasu continues to burn even after the user's death (Sasuke's fight.)
In chapter 389 page 16, it says that "Black flames consumes all." Emphasis on "all."
Chapter 390, page 6: States that it burns whatever is looked at, and in the third panel, implies that flames are just an example of what Amaterasu can burn. 
I tried to read the previous five pages to reply, but it was a bit much to go at once. Sorry if this was mentioned already. I'd post the actual links but since it's only my second post, i'm restricted.


----------



## StickaStick (May 12, 2015)

If Itachi could have destroyed the core by himself he would have, instead of waiting to give Naruto and Bee a teaching lesson (which he could have done afterwards) and potentially exacerbating the situation against a jutsu he was unfamiliar with. He realized all of him, Naruto, and Bee needed to chip in.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 12, 2015)

Except the whole chapter was about not doing everything on your own.


----------



## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

can totsuka seal it 


does it really need to cut through it to seal it or just make contact with it?


----------



## StickaStick (May 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Except the whole chapter was about not doing everything on your own.


Yes, and Kishi demonstrated this by creating a scenario where Itachi's, Naruto's, and Bee's combined efforts were needed to nullify the threat. It appears to me that those who think Itachi completely stopped Nagato on his own are the ones missing the message.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2015)

TBH, it'd be OOC for Itachi to try to destroy it on his own for many reasons. 

"He would have destroyed it on his own if he could have" is an illogical assesment because he wasn't alone in the first place.


----------



## StickaStick (May 12, 2015)

I'd be even more OoC for Itachi to risk making a precarious situation worse by expending time against a technique he is unfamiliar with.


----------



## ShadoLord (May 12, 2015)

Itachi don't have the DC to destroy a Chibaku Tensei.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I'd be even more OoC for Itachi to risk making a precarious situation worse by expending time against a technique he is unfamiliar with.



Actually coordinating an attack with 2 of his teammates instead of trying to be a hero on his own was the only logical course of action, and most definitely less risky.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> danzo firmly disagrees. he calls sasuke genjutsu far beneath itachi's and uses the comparison heaven and earth. lol  itachi tskuyomi is so far above its not funny
> 
> everytime tskuyomi has been used in the manga. the caption tskuyomi was written on panel. please show me where sasuke tskuyomi caption is when he used it against bee
> 
> ...



Carry on via VM.


----------



## StickaStick (May 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually coordinating an attack with 2 of his teammates instead of trying to be a hero on his own was the only logical course of action, and most definitely less risky.


I would have taken Itachi one second to try an attack, instead of the several that it took for him to go through his analysis with Naruto and Bee.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> TBH, it'd be OOC for Itachi to try to destroy it on his own for many reasons.
> 
> "He would have destroyed it on his own if he could have" is an illogical assesment because he wasn't alone in the first place.



Except that "illogical" assessment is also based on what we know based on Itachi's capabilities. We know Naruto and Bee are more than capable of destroying it alone.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I would have taken Itachi one second to try an attack, instead of the several that it took for him to go through his analysis with Naruto and Bee.



If characters didn't talk there'd be almost no character interraction and plot. You'r grasping @ straws.

But eitherway, if you'r a team, coordinating an attack is always the logical course of action.
What you'r suggesting Itachi should have done makes no sense given the situation he was in.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except that "illogical" assessment is also based on what we know based on Itachi's capabilities. We know Naruto and Bee are more than capable of destroying it alone.



I am not saying Itachi could have replicated what he and the Jins did together, I am just saying that Sticka's line of thinking is illogical.


----------



## ueharakk (May 14, 2015)

the core has to be durable enough to withstand all the pressure from the rocks that collect around it w/o getting squished.  Plus, if itachi could have destroyed the core himself, he'd have done it instead of taking the time to explain the situation to naruto and bee.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> the core has to be durable enough to withstand all the pressure from the rocks that collect around it w/o getting squished.  Plus, if itachi could have destroyed the core himself, he'd have done it instead of taking the time to explain the situation to naruto and bee.



It was the first time he was seeing that jutsu, so there was no way he could be sure if he could break it himself or not. 

He'd only discard his team mates and go for it alone if he thought both of their power combined wouldn't add much on to his own, which certainly wasn't the case.

Given the context of the chapter before and after, team work and shit was the main focus. So Itachi trying to do things on his own would be contextually wrong as well.


The logic "if he could then he would" doesn't work here.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> the core has to be durable enough to withstand all the pressure from the rocks that collect around it w/o getting squished.  Plus, if itachi could have destroyed the core himself, he'd have done it instead of taking the time to explain the situation to naruto and bee.



Pretty much this.


----------



## ueharakk (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was the first time he was seeing that jutsu, so there was no way he could be sure if he could break it himself or not.
> 
> He'd only discard his team mates and go for it alone if he thought both of their power combined wouldn't add much on to his own, which certainly wasn't the case.


Doesn't make any sense not to try, especially when he has unlimited chakra, and can explain things while susanoo launches the attack.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Given the context of the chapter before and after, team work and shit was the main focus. So Itachi trying to do things on his own would be contextually wrong as well.
> *
> The logic "if he could then he would" doesn't work here*.


The only way the bolded is true is if you claim that itachi was for some reason incapable of both talking to naruto and bee while throwing YM at the core, which is proven false as he forms susanoo and attacks while talking to naruto and bee in that very chapter.

Your contextual argument is completely irrelevant as the context can be kept while itachi's actions remain logically sound if he doesn't attack the core due to knowing he doesn't have enough power to do so.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Doesn't make any sense not to try, especially when he has unlimited chakra, and can explain things while susanoo launches the attack.


He probably took his time to think of a way how the 3 of them could defeat that technique. Which was the focus of the context. If Itachi actually attacked right as Nagato tossed the CT, and destroyed it, then how would he be able to talk about team work and being calm and taking time to analyze a technique ?

He even told Naruto how one should behave in dire situations. 
Its called character interraction/development and plot.



> The only way the bolded is true is if you claim that itachi was for some reason incapable of both talking to naruto and bee while throwing YM at the core, which is proven false as he forms susanoo and attacks while talking to naruto and bee in that very chapter.


Read above.



> Your contextual argument is completely irrelevant as the context can be kept while itachi's actions remain logically sound if he doesn't attack the core due to knowing he doesn't have enough power to do so.


Context is more relevant than your opinion on how you think Kishimoto should have written his own manga.


----------



## LostSelf (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> *the core has to be durable enough to withstand all the pressure from the rocks that collect around it w/o getting squished.*



I've been saying this too. But somehow it gets skipped and ignored, proceeded to say another thing that has something to do with the "featless" core.


----------



## ueharakk (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He probably took his time to think of a way how the 3 of them could defeat that technique. Which was the focus of the context. If Itachi actually attacked right as Nagato tossed the CT, and destroyed it, then how would he be able to talk about team work and being calm and taking time to analyze a technique ?
> 
> He even told Naruto how one should behave in dire situations.
> Its called character interraction/development and plot.


Like I have already explained, if Itachi was unable to destroy the technique himself even from the start, then the character interraction/developent and plot are fulfilled while itachi's decisions remain logically sound, while if itachi was able to destroy it from the start, itachi's decisions can only be explained by playing the 'it was plot' card.  Therefore Itachi not being able to destroy the technique makes more sense since it caters to less assumptions on the reader's part and doesn't need to have itachi do the illogical with the excuse of plot.

In addition to that, itachi's master plan was: fire your strongest attack... 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Context is more relevant than your opinion on how you think Kishimoto should have written his own manga.



1) What a person claims is "context" is their own opinion on what they think Kishimoto is trying to say based on what he wrote in his manga.  So that statement would equally apply to you and your interpretation as well.

2) My claim has nothing to do with ignoring the context of the situation, my claim is that the explanation that remains within the context of what Kishi is trying to portray *while keeping character actions logically coherent* are more plausible and cater to less assumptions than explanations that can only explain character actions by saying "plot."  And since you don't have any positive evidence to support your assertion that YM is powerful enough to bust the ball, then it logically follows that itachi not having the power to destroy it on his own is more plausible than him being able to destroy it, but not doing so because kishi.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Like I have already explained, if Itachi was unable to destroy the technique himself even from the start, then the character interraction/developent and plot are fulfilled while itachi's decisions remain logically sound, while if itachi was able to destroy it from the start, itachi's decisions can only be explained by playing the 'it was plot' card.  Therefore Itachi not being able to destroy the technique makes more sense since it caters to less assumptions on the reader's part and doesn't need to have itachi do the illogical with the excuse of plot.
> 
> In addition to that, itachi's master plan was: fire your strongest attack...
> 
> ...



IItachi impulsively attacking to CT on his own contradicts the notions of calmy analyzing a technique and teamwork. 
Whether he destroyed the core on his own or not would be irrelevant, as his actions would contradict everything he said and would say later on.

So taking context into account, what you'r suggesting Itachi should have done completely contradics the premise of the chapter and the ones ahead of it, thus is improbable.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> the core has to be durable enough to withstand all the pressure from the rocks that collect around it w/o getting squished.  Plus, if itachi could have destroyed the core himself, he'd have done it instead of taking the time to explain the situation to naruto and bee.



 Well, apparently something on the level of explosive tags can destroy something that can withstand the pressure of hundreds of boulders.


----------



## ueharakk (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> IItachi impulsively attacking to CT on his own contradicts the notions of calmy analyzing a technique and teamwork.
> Whether he destroyed the core on his own or not would be irrelevant, as his actions would contradict everything he said and would say later on.


Why would someone with analytic and thinking ability like itachi attacking CT on his own be considered impulsive?  And once again, this is irrelevant since you're catering to 'plot' as your explanation while there's another explanation that doesn't have to cater to that.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> So taking context into account, what you'r suggesting Itachi should have done completely contradics the premise of the chapter and the ones ahead of it, thus is improbable.



That's not the point, the point isn't that itachi doing this would have contradicted the premise, the point is the REASON itachi didn't do that.  And the reason you are giving necessitates that Itachi made an illogical decision which you attempt to explain away by saying plot, while my explanation for Itachi not doing that doesn't have to cater to claiming plot as there's a legitimate in-manga reason for his lack of action: that it wouldn't have destroyed chibaku tensei.  and of course the explanation that can be explained without having to cater to 'plot' is the more plausible explanation.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Why would someone with analytic and thinking ability like itachi attacking CT on his own be considered impulsive?  And once again, this is irrelevant since you're catering to 'plot' as your explanation while there's another explanation that doesn't have to cater to that.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not the point, the point isn't that itachi doing this would have contradicted the premise, the point is the REASON itachi didn't do that.  And the reason you are giving necessitates that Itachi made an illogical decision which you attempt to explain away by saying plot, while my explanation for Itachi not doing that doesn't have to cater to claiming plot as there's a legitimate in-manga reason for his lack of action: that it wouldn't have destroyed chibaku tensei.  and of course the explanation that can be explained without having to cater to 'plot' is the more plausible explanation.



Like I said, whether Itachi immediately attacked the core and destroyed it, or failed in doing so, that action would contradict of his lecture about being calm and analyzing the technique and coming up with a plan and most importantly team work(which happened to be the focus of Edo Itachi's story).

So regardless of the outcome, Itachi attacking the core on his own would contradict the things he said and the things he would say and the premise of Itachi and Naruto's meeting. 
In other words, the argument that "he would have if he could have" is illogical when the whole context and the circumstances of that chapter are taken into account.



NarutoX28 said:


> Well, apparently something on the level of explosive tags can destroy something that can withstand the pressure of hundreds of boulders.



Well apparently Joki Boi is alot weaker than an explosive tag, given Gaara's mommy defense tanked Joki Boi with no problems, but was penetrated by Madara's magatama along with Onoki's Rock Golem(a smaller version was used by the fat dude to tank Gaara's c1).


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well apparently Joki Boi is alot weaker than an explosive tag, given Gaara's mommy defense tanked Joki Boi with no problems, but was penetrated by Madara's magatama along with Onoki's Rock Golem(a smaller version was used by the fat dude to tank Gaara's c1).



 All right, that is Madara's Magatama, not Itachi's. 

 just fine

 Don't tell me Gaara can tank Madara's Yasaka Magatama as well. In all honesty, Gaara tanking the brunt of the blast implies it's not that strong,. If anything, it implies it's weaker than Deidara's weakest bombs that easily defeated Gaara in one blow. Gaara here also didn't seem to use his Sand Armor which really makes it hard to believe that the Steam Explosion was very strong at all.

 Gaara's Mommy Defense also seemed to have been considerably bigger against Jouki Boy then Onoki and Gaara's defense used against Madara's Yasaka Magatama, especially when the Sand that Gaara used was lightened thanks to Onoki.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> All right, that is Madara's Magatama, not Itachi's.


For an unknown reason it is stronger or weaker ?



> Link removed
> 
> Don't tell me Gaara can tank Madara's Yasaka Magatama as well. In all honesty, Gaara tanking the brunt of the blast implies it's not that strong,. If anything, it implies it's weaker than Deidara's weakest bombs that easily defeated Gaara in one blow. Gaara here also didn't seem to use his Sand Armor which really makes it hard to believe that the Steam Explosion was very strong at all


.
Gaara took Deidara's bomb point blank to the face, within confined space. There is actually no evidence that he took the whole blast the same way there. He most likely protected himself with the dome.

I also never said Joki Boi is extremely strong or anything, but any sane person knows that it isn't weaker than an exploding tag. 



> Gaara's Mommy Defense also seemed to have been considerably bigger against Jouki Boy then Onoki and Gaara's defense used against Madara's Yasaka Magatama, especially when the Sand that Gaara used was lightened thanks to Onoki.



That is true, but Magatama penetrated also the golem through Gaara'sMommy defense, which is still more remarkable than anything Joki Boi's explosion have done so far, which at least in size is multiple times bigger than an exploding tag.


----------



## Raiken (May 15, 2015)

Nagato just wins.

Standard Bijuu Dama >> FRS > Yasaka's Magatama: In power

Itachi can't output enough destructive force to take out the core, Nagato wins.

Edo Nagato is not far off Bijuu Mode Naruto level, no way is Itachi soling him.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 15, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> the core has to be durable enough to withstand all the pressure from the rocks that collect around it w/o getting squished.  Plus, if itachi could have destroyed the core himself, he'd have done it instead of taking the time to explain the situation to naruto and bee.



Technically the core only has to be durable enough to survive the first rocks.  After that they make a nice compact dome around it that evenly distributes the pressure back to the rocks.  Like domes and spheres do in buildings.

Not that Itachi can break it with magatama alone either way.


----------



## LostSelf (May 15, 2015)

I don't think the pressure is distributed here. A building has, to put it this way, 'more spheres' to take the pressure. If i am not mistaken.

In this case, and being different than that, the only and central core is attracting all the rocks to the center at extreme pressure, all that pressure, or most of it, should be felt by the core.

The building's gravity, also, pales in comparison to what the core has, too, though.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> For an unknown reason it is stronger or weaker ?



 Why would Itachi's Yasaka Magatama be on Madara's level? Madara has a superior Susano'o and higher quality of Chakra in general along with the fact that he has amazing Chakra Control with Susano'o to the point of being able to Stabilize it and Form legs. There's no reason for Itachi's Yasaka Magatama to be on Madara's level, same as how there's no reason for Itachi's Katon to be on par with the majority of Madara's Katon.

.


> Gaara took Deidara's bomb point blank to the face, within confined space. There is actually no evidence that he took the whole blast the same way there. He most likely protected himself with the dome.



 Gengetsu stated that Gaara took the brunt of Jouki Boy's explosion, so this is a rather similar circumstance. He didn't protect himself with a dome at all or that would've been shown seeing as how Gaara's Sand can already withstand Gengetsu's steam and water and the fact Gengetsu directly stated that he took all the damage. Using a dome to protect himself doesn't fit that criteria.



> I also never said Joki Boi is extremely strong or anything, but any sane person knows that it isn't weaker than an exploding tag.



 Never claimed that. It's just not as strong as you claim it to be.




> That is true, but Magatama penetrated also the golem through Gaara's Mommy defense, which is still more remarkable than anything Joki Boi's explosion have done so far, which at least in size is multiple times bigger than an exploding tag.



  That's likely because Madara's Yasaka Magatama has piercing qualities whereas Jouki Boy doesn't and also because Gaara's Sand was Lightened here whereas against Jouki Boy, it was not.. Even then, we can't transfer Madara's feats to Itachi's considering he's an EMS user and has far superior feats using the Mangekyo anyways.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Why would Itachi's Yasaka Magatama be on Madara's level? Madara has a superior Susano'o and higher quality of Chakra in general along with the fact that he has amazing Chakra Control with Susano'o to the point of being able to Stabilize it and Form legs. There's no reason for Itachi's Yasaka Magatama to be on Madara's level, same as how there's no reason for Itachi's Katon to be on par with the majority of Madara's Katon.
> 
> .
> 
> ...


Gaara had his gourd sand around him as he was approaching Mizukage. Why wouldn't he use his gourd Sand to protect himsef ?
Also if you'r going to nitpick about sand being ligthened and all, then you'll have to factor in other details, such as Itachi's hurling a 3 pack instead of rapid firing individual magatama's and his Magatama being pulled in by CT, which translates into more accelaration, more momentum and more power. 
Anyways, the main point is, Magatama's power isn't around the exploding tag ballpark unless you think Joki Boi(the most hyped technique of the Mizukage is as strong as an exploding tag offensively. Which sounds pretty retarded and doesn't correlate with its feats.

And your rebuttal is that Madara's Susano'o is stronger than Itachi's. Thus his magatama is also stronger ?

You have no evidence to back that up.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 15, 2015)

so nobody thinks, deva paths CT would be easier to bust then Nagato's CT?


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gaara had his gourd sand around him as he was approaching Mizukage. Why wouldn't he use his gourd Sand to protect himsef ?



 Fair point, though it was clearly a rather low amount of sand or else Mizukage wouldn't have commented on Gaara taking all the damage.



> Also if you'r going to nitpick about sand being ligthened and all, then you'll have to factor in other details, such as Itachi's hurling a 3 pack instead of rapid firing individual magatama's and his Magatama being pulled in by CT, which translates into more accelaration, more momentum and more power.



 So basically you concede that both scenarios that involved Madara's Yasaka Magatama and Jouki Boy aren't comparable.

 But yeah, I  concede to the bottom points as those were factors I was initially aware of. However, it does seem as if Itachi would need assistance in taking out the core as FRS and Hachibi's Bijuudama both individually have far greater fire-power, so thus most of the work done. There's also the fact that the attacks only cancelled out against the core implying they were roughly equal.

 I don't see anything suggesting Itachi's Yasaka Magatama can destroy the core.



> Anyways, the main point is, Magatama's power isn't around the exploding tag ballpark unless you think Joki Boi(the most hyped technique of the Mizukage is as strong as an exploding tag offensively. Which sounds pretty retarded and doesn't correlate with its feats.



 I honestly wasn't even thinking or expecting to debate when I commented on that, so funny how you attempt to debate with me instead of somebody else as I was actually the last person to claim that.

 As I said before, both feats are not comparable, so you making that comparison to prove Yasaka Magatama is stronger than what has been shown is meaningless.



> And your rebuttal is that Madara's Susano'o is stronger than Itachi's. Thus his magatama is also stronger ?
> 
> You have no evidence to back that up.



 That implies you didn't even read my post. Not that it matters, you still have to prove Itachi's Yasaka Magatama is on par with Madara's.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 16, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I don't think the pressure is distributed here. A building has, to put it this way, 'more spheres' to take the pressure. If i am not mistaken.
> 
> In this case, and being different than that, the only and central core is attracting all the rocks to the center at extreme pressure, all that pressure, or most of it, should be felt by the core.
> 
> The building's gravity, also, pales in comparison to what the core has, too, though.



Take a large steel ball with a hollow center. 



If you add more layers to that ball, the hollow center isn't going to take any pressure.  All the pressure is going to go to the shell around the core.  

Same thing for Gaara's sand sphere.  Gaara can keep adding sand to the outside of the ball, and condensing it, while not crushing himself no matter how big he makes it.  His squishy body is nestled inside a stable structure.  I imagine the CT core works similarly, which is why you don't have to hit it with more force than ten mountains to break it.


----------



## Garcher (May 16, 2015)

The moment Nagato uses it will cost him enormous amount of strength, immobilizing him. Plenty time for Itachi to stab him with Totsuka and win the battle


----------



## LostSelf (May 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Take a large steel ball with a hollow center.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I might be too slow to understand but... CT's core is not hollow, it has everything forming on it. Unless you mean the insides of the sphere being hollow, but i don't think that's the case, however... who knows.

I do think you need a lot of considerable force to break it. It's one of the Rinnegan's strongest jutsu. Not everybody can throw a blast and counter it. Or at least, i don't see it that way. Not to say your point is wrong or anything.

Edit (After some hours):

Also, there are differences between that ball and CT. Both parts of the balls are one, both parts fits in the center and are effectively made so that everything fits.

What CT has of different is that it's not made like that. For example, it's not made of two parts of giant rock perfectly shaped with a circle in the center, fit with each rock taking the weight of the other. On the contrary, CT pulls big chunks of rocks that are not shaped, therefore the pressure, contrary to the ball, that doesn't have any pressure, considering what i said above,  the core here pulls hard and feels it. Even if we say that the golf ball you provided feels pressure above and below (It shouldn't be, because the pressure is shared by both parts due to the circle shape in the center of both), CT feels it from all angles.

Above, below, from the left side, from the right side, from the upper-right side, etc. as the rocks are separated entities not shaped in order to fit there and being pulled to put in place, they add weight. The core just pulls, and keeps pulling the rocks that gets one above the other, adding the weight on a core that doesn't have the luxury that the golf ball has. Adding that, it keeps it in place.

To create a golf ball with CT's mechanics (not counting the extreme gravity pull), the ball in the center should be extremely durable, or at least, durable enough to sustain all the weight it's going to provide. And if you resize that golf ball to complete CT's size,you would need probably an insane explosion to break it. And that's not counting the gravity pull.

If CT shaped initial rocks to have a circle in the center and let the weight of both sides rests on each other, then i would agree. But in this case, the sphere feels the pressure of every single angle, because the sides are not coming down, resting on the rocks below. They are pulled right towards the core as every rock in there.

Don't know if i explained myself correctly. I am not good doing that in english. I would put images if necessary


----------



## Joakim3 (May 19, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> so nobody thinks, deva paths CT would be easier to bust then Nagato's CT?



Tendo's CT (while being powered by an exhausted Nagato) was capable with-standing KN6's uncompressed _Mini Bijudama_ penetrating several hundred feet into the core.... something that has the AoE and power to ...... 

so in short...

Itachi has zero chances, he gets turned into red mash


You frankly need Biju+ lvl's of firepower to blow it up or circumnavigate/counter it with hax i.e _Kamui_, _Jinton_, _Hirashin_ etc..


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Fair point, though it was clearly a rather low amount of sand or else Mizukage wouldn't have commented on Gaara taking all the damage.


The amount doesn't matter, as we know his gourd sand is limited but stronger. You can see he didn't have it before Joki Boi detonated, and he had it around him afterwards.



> So basically you concede that both scenarios that involved Madara's Yasaka Magatama and Jouki Boy aren't comparable.


I never said anything like that. 



> But yeah, I  concede to the bottom points as those were factors I was initially aware of. However, it does seem as if Itachi would need assistance in taking out the core as FRS and Hachibi's Bijuudama both individually have far greater fire-power, so thus most of the work done. There's also the fact that the attacks only cancelled out against the core implying they were roughly equal.


Magatama isn't an explosive type, naturally those attacks have more firepower. Also they are essential in dealing the area of effect damage to destroy the debris and reach the core.
I never said Magatama can replicate that, I am debating how it'd perform against  naked core.



> I don't see anything suggesting Itachi's Yasaka Magatama can destroy the core.


I don't see anything suggesting otherwise. I mean, is the core more durable than Gaara's defense and Onoki's golem combined together ? Even if it is, is it enough to stay stabilied after being hit by Magatama ?  Any evidence ? 



> I honestly wasn't even thinking or expecting to debate when I commented on that, so funny how you attempt to debate with me instead of somebody else as I was actually the last person to claim that.


I don't get it, didn't you say Magatama is as powerful as exploding tag ? 



> As I said before, both feats are not comparable, so you making that comparison to prove Yasaka Magatama is stronger than what has been shown is meaningless.


Which feats aren't comparable ? 



> That implies you didn't even read my post. Not that it matters, you still have to prove Itachi's Yasaka Magatama is on par with Madara's.


I don't have to prove anything.  You'r the one claiming that Madara's magatama is more powerful than Itachi's, so the burden of proof is on you.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2015)

I'm surprised that at this point some of us are still arguing that Itachi stands a chance.

Itachi has no chance whatsoever, the only other user of the Magatama had his ocular powers amped by 2 superior Doujutsu Itachi lacks. 

Itachi lacks the power.


----------



## LostSelf (May 19, 2015)

Obviously a stronger Doujutsu (and chakra) amplifies the ocular jutsus (Something Madara has by much over Itachi. The man is basically Indra's incarnation). Unless we say that Itachi's Tsukuyomi is on par with Sharinegan's Sasuke's. Or that MS Sasuke's Amaterasu is the same as godsuke's. And the examples goes on.

And yeah, the burden of proof is on the ones saying Itachi's Magatama can even scratch the core by itself.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Obviously a stronger Doujutsu (and chakra) amplifies the ocular jutsus (Something Madara has by much over Itachi. The man is basically Indra's incarnation). Unless we say that Itachi's Tsukuyomi is on par with Sharinegan's Sasuke's. Or that MS Sasuke's Amaterasu is the same as godsuke's. And the examples goes on.




There is actually 0 evidence that Madara's Susano'o, save the Legged form and PS, is any stronger than Itachi's, or Sasuke's incomplete ones.

Madara's Susano'o doesn't have a shield that can reflect any kind of attack, or a sword that can one shot Nagato or Orochimary in Hydra form. If Itachi's 2 other weapons are stronger than Madara's, why would Madara's Magatama be stronger than Itachi's Magatama, without any actual evidence ? 

Sasuke doesn't have Tsukiyomi, and Itachi's Tsukiyomi is better than Sasuke's MS genjutsu because Itachi is more skilled @ using it, not because Itachi's chakra or sharingan is stronger(actually the contrary was stated over and over).



> And yeah, the burden of proof is on the ones saying Itachi's Magatama can even scratch the core by itself.



I've provided my argument why Magatama should be able to scratch the core.
What is the argument for  the core ? What is its best durability feat ?


----------



## Joakim3 (May 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What is the argument for  the core ? What is its best durability feat ?



Withstanding the _entire weight of a mountain range_ compressing on it in every direction? 

Why is this still being argued honestly


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Withstanding the _entire weight of a mountain range_ compressing on it in every direction?



You mean the pressure of the entire weight of a mountain range distributed to a gigantic sphere ?
And neither B's bijuudama nor Naruto's FRS have the feats to destroy an entire mountain range, but somehow they ended up destroying it, along with the hugeass debris around it.



> Why is this still being argued honestly



I don't know, honestly.


----------



## Joakim3 (May 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You mean the pressure of the entire weight of a mountain range distributed to a gigantic sphere ?



Thats not how it works, seeing the central object _itself_ is holding the entire thing together.... all the pressure is being applied towards it, not being distributed among the debris (i.e an even distribution of pressure)



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And neither B's bijuudama nor Naruto's FRS have the feats to destroy an entire mountain range, but somehow they ended up destroying it, along with the hugeass debris around it.



Pressure resistance =/= exposive resistance, you can't compare them as they mechanisms of damage are VERY different. What we do know is that a exhausted Nagato's CT through Tendo could no casually no sell KN6's _Mini Bijudama_ in it's early stages, something which is tiers more powerful than _Yasaka Magatma_)

Killer B's casual _Bijudama_ _vaporized_ a substantial portion of the Valley of Lighting, something of comparable size to the CT crater..... it's a massive gap even from FRS (which uncompressed created a dust cloud the length of the CT crater) 

The CT Naruto, Killer B & Itachi destroyed was _nowhere_ near full size when it was destroyed.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Thats not how it works, seeing the central object _itself_ is holding the entire thing together.... all the pressure is being applied towards it, not being distributed among the debris (i.e an even distribution of pressure)



It has the power to hold everything together, but the whole pressure isn't applied directly on to it.



> Pressure resistance =/= exposive resistance, you can't compare them as they mechanisms of damage are VERY different. What we do know is that a exhausted Nagato's CT through Tendo could no casually no sell KN6's _Mini Bijudama_ in it's early stages, something which is tiers more powerful than _Yasaka Magatma_)


Like I said, I never debated that Magatama could destroy all that debris, it isn't an explosive technique.




> Killer B's casual _Bijudama_ _vaporized_ a substantial portion of the Valley of Lighting, something of comparable size to the CT crater..... it's a massive gap even from FRS (which uncompressed created a dust cloud the length of the CT crater)


It actually didn't ? 

And the crater here is much larger than the area B was standing on : casually no sell KN6's _Mini Bijudama_



> The CT Naruto, Killer B & Itachi destroyed was _nowhere_ near full size when it was destroyed.


I'd agree with that.
But the core itself should be more powerful than the one Deva used.


----------



## LostSelf (May 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is actually 0 evidence that Madara's Susano'o, save the Legged form and PS, is any stronger than Itachi's, or Sasuke's incomplete ones.
> 
> Madara's Susano'o doesn't have a shield that can reflect any kind of attack, or a sword that can one shot Nagato or Orochimary in Hydra form. If Itachi's 2 other weapons are stronger than Madara's, why would Madara's Magatama be stronger than Itachi's Magatama, without any actual evidence ?
> 
> Sasuke doesn't have Tsukiyomi, and Itachi's Tsukiyomi is better than Sasuke's MS genjutsu because Itachi is more skilled @ using it, not because Itachi's chakra or sharingan is stronger(actually the contrary was stated over and over).



So you think that godsuke's Amaterasu is as powerful as MS Sasuke's Amaterasu? If you don't think that's the case, then yeah, stronger eyes should grant you stronger Susano'o, etc.


> I've provided my argument why Magatama should be able to scratch the core.
> What is the argument for  the core ? What is its best durability feat ?




Yes, the core takes all the pressure of CT, and not the distributed weight like you claim. The core pulls each and every rock around it, therefore it's much more than the weight of the rocks by itself, as it pulls it with enough force to keep Kyuubi Naruto trapped. And that's a lot of force combined with the weight of the huge chunks of rock surrounding and being forcibly pulled against it..

That's much more than anything Itachi has shown to handle. And when it comes to the burden of proof, it's Itachi doing something it hasn't been stated, with a featless Magatama and against the stronger jutsu of somebody stronger than him used to trap Bijuus like KN8.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is actually 0 evidence that Madara's Susano'o, save the Legged form and PS, is any stronger than Itachi's, or Sasuke's incomplete ones.
> 
> Madara's Susano'o doesn't have a shield that can reflect any kind of attack, or a sword that can one shot Nagato or Orochimary in Hydra form. If Itachi's 2 other weapons are stronger than Madara's, why would Madara's Magatama be stronger than Itachi's Magatama, without any actual evidence ?
> 
> Sasuke doesn't have Tsukiyomi, and Itachi's Tsukiyomi is better than Sasuke's MS genjutsu because Itachi is more skilled @ using it, not because Itachi's chakra or sharingan is stronger(actually the contrary was stated over and over).



Next you'll tell us that Rinnegan chakra isn't stronger than EMS chakra, which in turn isn't stronger than MS chakra which in turn isn't stronger than Sharingan chakra. 

The evidence backs it up. Now bear in mind you're saying things like Itachi's more skilled and Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi despite clear artwork and manga facts go against you. 

Not buying it.



> I've provided my argument why Magatama should be able to scratch the core.
> What is the argument for  the core ? What is its best durability feat ?



Your argument was very weak. You basically admitted that any convincing evidence against Itachi will be ignored by yourself while you'll consider non-existent evidence for Itachi to be quality evidence.

Your main evidence is that Itachi's Magatama are somehow on part with Sasuke and Madara's. Despite the fact he has a weaker Doujutsu and not the same chakra quality.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> So you think that godsuke's Amaterasu is as powerful as MS Sasuke's Amaterasu? If you don't think that's the case, then yeah, stronger eyes should grant you stronger Susano'o, etc.


Yeah completely ignore everything I said 

If they are visually the same, then yes, they are pretty much the same.

If there is a difference in power between two identical techniques, I'm pretty sure we'll be given a verbal or a visual hint.



> Yes, the core takes all the pressure of CT, and not the distributed weight like you claim. The core pulls each and every rock around it, therefore it's much more than the weight of the rocks by itself, as it pulls it with enough force to keep Kyuubi Naruto trapped. And that's a lot of force combined with the weight of the huge chunks of rock surrounding and being forcibly pulled against it..




Even if thats the case, which I believe it isn't, that doesn't mean it'll tank Magatama. How does the comparison even work ?



> That's much more than anything Itachi has shown to handle. And when it comes to the burden of proof, it's Itachi doing something it hasn't been stated, with a featless Magatama and against the stronger jutsu of somebody stronger than him used to trap Bijuus like KN8.



Thats a terrible comparison.

CT is stronger than Magatama because of what it does. I never said Magatama can replicate what CT can do, power-wise.Thats not my argument. What you said would make sense if that was the case.


Nagato was oneshot by Totsuka. Does that put Totsuka above anything Nagato can dish out ?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

So to assume Itachi can take CT we need to assume that chakra quality *has no influence* over the power of jutsu. 

With that flawed assumption we've got to make to assume Itachi stands a chance against CT: Itachi loses to every CT we've seen. The evidence on Itachi's side is incredibly weak. 

When I've got to assume Rinnegan Amaterasu has the same power as a MS Amaterasu (despite the manga showing us different chakra qualities), you know there's a flawed argument there.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2015)

Yeah yeah... Also every MS user has Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, Totsuka and Yata and Itachi wasn't holding back against Sasuke and his illness didn't factor in.

We know all these things Munboy, no need to spam it over and over again.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah yeah... Also every MS user has Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, Totsuka and Yata and Itachi wasn't holding back against Sasuke and his illness didn't factor in.
> 
> We know all these things Munboy, no need to spam it over and over again.



Finally you're starting to accept the overwhelming evidence against you. 

Though Itachi only held back Susanoo and his illness just made him cough blood and unable to handle a jutsu (Susanoo) which he wasn't ever going to use on Sasuke. 

Which probably means Susanoo Itachi is firmly above Hebi Sasuke, but firmly below MS Sasuke and Susanoo-less Itachi is defo below Hebi Sasuke who could've ended Itachi with a Katon if he didn't want to use Kirin.


----------

