# When did Naruto become chunin, jounin, and kage level



## joshhookway (Feb 1, 2012)

Chunin: Part II I think Naruto was able the level at the begining of part II. He was definitely not Jonin level. Guy or Kakashi would easily rape his ass. He easily got defeated by Deidara, Oro, Sasuke and Tobi. He would have been blown by Deidara if it weren't for Kakashi. He beat kakazu because kakuzu had fought for a long time and lost two hearts. 

Jonin: Skipped to kage

Kage: Low borderline Kage at Senjutsu. I would say this because he's clearly superior to most Jonins. He could easily kill Tsunade who isn't really a good kage or kage levelled. His kenjutsu and toad summons are powerful. However, he looks unimpressive against others kages and kage levelled shinobi.
Mid-Kage RM Naruto: he was clearly stronger than zombie Raikage, but got raped by other high level shinobi such as madara, itachi, nagato, and jins
High Kage Kurama mode: He soloed all the jins. It only took one jin to destroy him in RM.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 1, 2012)

Low kage at SM  it was more like high-kage, he beat Sandaime raikage in it and fought on par with kyuubi and 6 paths of pain, all high-kage. As well as surpassing jiraiya and oro in SM


Genin-level - Start of part-1

Chuunin-level - Post-gamabunta

Jonin-level - Post timeskip

Kage-level - Post wind training

Demi-god - RM

God - KM

Satan - Juubi chakra mode with SM


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## Octavian (Feb 1, 2012)

SM naruto can beat every current kage except for Ei... i don't know what you mean by borderline low kage 

anyway, here's how i see it

post time skip naruto: special jonin (slightly below regular jonin)
post wind training naruto: high jounin
SM naruto: mid-high kage
RM v1 naruto: above kage
RM v2 naruto: demi-god


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## ImSerious (Feb 1, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> He was definitely not Jonin level. Guy or Kakashi would easily rape his ass.



What does the second sentence have to do with the first one?


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## stockholmsyndrome (Feb 1, 2012)

Genin: Series introduction.
Chunin: After the toad summoning training
Jonin: When he returned from the TS seeing as Naruto was above Neji in skill who is a jonin.
Low Kage: Post Fuuton training
High Kage: Post SM 
God Tier: Post mastering the Kyubi.


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## sassuke55 (Feb 1, 2012)

This is so obviously an attempt to belittle naruto! A bad attempt at hidding. I could say Sasuke got a weakend itachi still could have beaten him. He didnt beat deidara deidara killed himself. He fought a weakend Orochimaru. See how easy it is to belittle accomplishments and say a person isnt that powerful. Hell sauske couldnt handle bee. Only got his tail meh.


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## Octavian (Feb 1, 2012)

also lol at high kage in kurama mode: dude he would solo the 5 kages...


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## Reddan (Feb 1, 2012)

He was Chunin level probably around the forest of death.

Jounin level in power when he fought Sasuke at VOTE with 1 tail, but lacking in many areas.

Standard Jounin in his base form when he came back from the time skip.

Kage level after he completed his wind training.

High Kage Level after SM.

Even stronger in RM

Now probably only below Tobi possibly.


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## Melodie (Feb 1, 2012)

Octavian said:


> also lol at high kage in kurama mode: dude he would solo the 5 kages...



By feats i would agree, though if kishi intends to put a fight like that, i believe the Gokage would win or give him extreme difficulty in winning. at the moment, they're fighting against someone so powerful that could bring meteors from the space. we might have seen all of Gaara's potential, but not other kages potential. ( ima give you two examples...Ooinki..; That Guy have basically four elements and he have shown us only two [ Doton and Jinton ], Mei : 5 elements and have shown only three, and in like every affinity she have showed us only one techinque, me myself i wouldn't believe that she have a kekkei genkai for only 1 techinque. ) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Given the last chapter too we knew that, all of this power wasn't by only the Kyuubi, but also from Son goku as he have lent him chakra


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## Terra Branford (Feb 1, 2012)

> He could easily kill Tsunade who isn't really a good kage or kage levelled.


What?


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## tanman (Feb 1, 2012)

Genin: Chapter 1
Chunin: Chunin Exam Preliminaries
Low Jonin: Find Tsunade 
Mid Jonin: Rescue Sasuke
High Jonin: Post-Skip
Low Kage: Wind Training
High Kage: Sage Mode
Shinobi World Leader: Kyuubi Chakra Mode
God: Biju Mode


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## Matador (Feb 1, 2012)

This is Base Naruto.

Genin- Post-Shadow Clone Teaching
Chuunin- During the Chuunin Exams, prolly against Kiba
Jounin- Beginning of Part 2
Kage- Current Base Naruto should be more or less Kage Level


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## jimbob631 (Feb 1, 2012)

Naruto was never chunnin level imo, once he learned how to summon Gamabunta he was already on the upper scale of jounin level.  Only the strongest jounin can compete with something like Gamabunta.  By part 2 even without using kyuubi chakra he was jounin level also and once he completed wind training he was a solid kage level.  Senjutsu training put him above kage level.


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## Bart (Feb 1, 2012)

*Genin*
_Start of Part I._

*Chunin*
_During the Chunin Exams._

*Jounin*
_Beginning of Part II, after his training with Jiraiya._

*Kage*
_Learning Senjutsu and completing Sage Mode._

*Superman*
_Shortly after discovering that he really was from the planet Krypton._

*Naruto the White*
_Defeating the Balrog of Morgoth._


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## SaishuSoda (Feb 1, 2012)

*Genin-*After learning Kage Bushin
*Chunin-*Chunin Exams/Summoning Gamabunta
*Low Jounin-*Post timeskip
*Mid-High Jounin-*Completing _Futon :Rasenshuriken_
*Mid-Kage-* Mastering _Sage Mode_/Pain Arc
*High-Kage-*Beginning of _Fourth Ninja War_
*Low-Top Tier-*Surpassing Raikage's speed in V2
*Top Tier-* Syncing chakra with Kurama


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## Bitty (Feb 1, 2012)

Base Naruto: Without any help from Kurama.

mid Genin: after learning the shadow clone technique.
high Chunin:after learning the Rasengan 
high Jounin:mastering wind element
mid Kage:  mastering Sage Mode.


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## Skywalker (Feb 1, 2012)

Chunin after he learns Rasengan, Jounin at the start of Start 2, Solid Kage after he learns SM.


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## Empathy (Feb 1, 2012)

He hasn't gotten to Chuunin level just yet. He's still a Genin.


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## joshhookway (Feb 1, 2012)

There's no way that he was jonin at time skip. He showed only two moves and defeated no significant oponent on his own.

As for wind training, it didn't do him shit. He couldn't even use FRS


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## Philip.J.Fry (Feb 1, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> Chunin: Part II I think Naruto was able the level at the begining of part II. He was definitely not Jonin level. Guy or Kakashi would easily rape his ass. He easily got defeated by Deidara, Oro, Sasuke and Tobi. He would have been blown by Deidara if it weren't for Kakashi. He beat kakazu because kakuzu had fought for a long time and lost two hearts.
> 
> Jonin: Skipped to kage
> 
> ...



He was mid kage with RM Mode?

He pretty much took over the war by himself. 
He fought:

A ridiculous amount of White Zetsus
Itachi
Nagato
Toroi
Mu 
Third Raikage
Madara
Tobi
6 jins with a rinnegan and sharingan
1 tailed beast (pre kyuubi sync)

All during the same period of time, and you are going to kal him mid-kage level? 

A mid kage would have difficulty (or be destroyed) with anyone on that list, not including Toroi. Not to mention all of them.

RM Naruto had 13 clones plus the original when he first split up. Those are 14 high-kage level ninja right there.

I can't tell for certain, but the only people on that list that would stand a chance against 14 RM Narutos are Itachi, Nagato, Madara, and Tobi. And they are all legendary status. 

The notion of Kage Level is outdated at this point. The field is dynamic that low, mid, and high kage level cannot accurately describe someone's rank. 

I can say for sure though, that if you limit it to low,mid, and high kage level, RM Naruto is high kage easy. Calling him mid-kage level is an insult.


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## SaishuSoda (Feb 1, 2012)

Not every Jonin is Kakashi/Gai level. Number of justu is hardly relevant. Neji,Kankuro, and Temari were Low-Jonin level at beginning of timeskip, how was Naruto not at least on par with them battle capabilty wise?


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## Frawstbite (Feb 1, 2012)

Genin - In the beginning.
Chuunin - Summoning Gamabunta.
Special-Jonin/Extremely High Chuunin - Beginning of part II. 
Jonin - After wind training.
Low Kage - (_current base Naruto W/Giant Rasengan_)
Mid Kage - _???_
High Kage - After he became a sage (Yes, I believe the power boost was ridiculous)
Expert Ninja() RM
Master Ninja() - Complete RM/Biju Mode
Grand Master Ninja () - Whatever is next.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Feb 1, 2012)

SaishuSoda said:


> Not every Jonin is Kakashi/Gai level. Number of justu is hardly relevant. Neji,Kankuro, and Temari were Low-Jonin level at beginning of timeskip, how was Naruto not at least on par with them battle capabilty wise?



This I get the impression some people take Base Kakashi and Gai as average Jonin instead of being the absolute pinnacle in terms of Jonin ranked Nins and personally I would of placed in skill Naruto to be above Temari, Kankuro and Neji.


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## KiddLaw92 (Feb 1, 2012)

Genin: The beginning
Chunin: Post Chunin Exams
Jonin: Post timeskip
Low Kage: Post Futon Training
High Kage: Post senjutsu
God: Post Kyubi mastering


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## crisler (Feb 1, 2012)

genin - beginning

chunin - skip. i believe at the end of part1 naruto was somewhat between chunin ~genin. his chakra shroud with 1tail...would be at least chunin level but that's purely becuz of his anger. 

jounin - part2 probably jounin

kage level - SM mode

mid kage - KM mode

high kage - current mode.


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## jimbob631 (Feb 1, 2012)

For people saying Naruto was chunnin level with Gamabunta can they name a single chunnin level shinobi that could do anything to Gamabunta.  How about Jounins?  I can only think of a very select few that could do shit to Gamabunta.  Naruto was close to kage level with Gamabunta, he was fighting evenly with a bijuu at that point.

With kyuubi chakra Naruto was matching Gaara, a shinobi who was likely jounin level seeing as he fought well against Kimimaro who was stated to be Orochimaru's greatest service.  Sasuke, Naruto, and Gaara were solidly jounin level by the end of part 1 and one could argue they were all knocking on the door of kage level.


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## Trueno (Feb 1, 2012)

Genin: Beginning
Chunin: Chunin Exams
 mid Jonin: End Of Part I & Beginning of Part II
high jonin: Kakuzu
Kage: SM 
Above Kage: KM
God Tier:Full KM V2 and up


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## Laura (Feb 1, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> His kenjutsu and toad summons are powerful.



Kenjutsu? When has Naruto ever used a sword?

Genin: Kage Bunshin  (That's how he qualified)
Chunin: End of Sasuke retrieval  (I reckon that's when he was finally good enough)
Jonin: Post time skip  (He was able to take on the Akatsuki with the help of Kakashi, that's good enough)
Elite Jonin: Wind rasenshurikan (That was a powerful jutsu to learn)
Kage: Sage mode (He was bad ass and defeated pain)

Those are the only real ranks, after Kage, he just went up different levels of saiyan.


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## ownageprince (Feb 2, 2012)

Genin: Haku battle
Chunnin: Beats Neji at Chunnin Exams
Post Time Skip: Low Jounin
Wind Training: High/Elite Jounin
Sage Mode: Mid-Kage Level
Kyuubi Mode Partial: High-Kage Level
Kyuubi Mode Full: Legend Level


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## Muah (Feb 2, 2012)

Chunin: fight against orochimaru.

Jounin: fight against Gaara

Mid level jounin: fight againt's Sasuke

High level jounin: After Rasen shuriken training

Kage level pein arc.


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## Missing_Nin (Feb 2, 2012)

chunin-latest is end of the chunin.
jounin-time skip
kage-wind training

now he's godruto.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 2, 2012)

Genin level- I suppose the start of the series. He did defeat a chuunin though so it can be argued that he skipped that level altogther. However let's just say that was a fluke and he just had a good tool for that opponent. 

Chuunin- In base he truly becomes chuunin level after his fight with Gaara since we saw how basically beat almost fully transformed Gaara in base by himself. With Kyuubi, he was chuunin level back when he beat Haku. Naruto stays chuunin level in base throughout the rest of part 1 but I believe he hits somewhere between mid-high chuunin level at the end (on the rooftop he matched Sasuke who Genma said was clealy chuunin level before the use of CS/3 tomoe sharingan).

Jounin- With Kyuubi I would say he hits the low end of Jounin at the end of part 1 with KN0 and KN1. In base he is definitely mid jounin when he comes from the time skip. He was able to use a couple KBs to deal with Kakashi's taijutsu/sharingan prediction+speed and Kakashi even calls his usage "clever." With 1 KB, he fought evenly in taijutsu with a high jounin in the form of Yamato. He did something similar against Chiyo. He has improved his rasengan as well.

Kage- Naruto is probably low kage level when he hits 3 tails. So he was technically kage level when he came back from the time skip but he could not fully control it. Now he hits kage level in base after his wind training becoming Kakashi's equal showing he is low kage level in base. After SM, Naruto hits mid-high kage level and after Rikudou Mode, he becomes even stronger up to something beyond kage level. This new form takes it over the top to the point where he now stands at the top of the shinobi world.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 2, 2012)

Genin: Start of the Series-Wave Arc
Chunin: Forest of Death
Jonin: Timeskip
Kage: Post-Wind Training
High Kage: Sage Mode
High Kage +: Nine-Tailed Chakra Mode
Demi-God: Biju Mode.


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## Coldhands (Feb 2, 2012)

Genin: In the beginning obviously.
Chunin: In the Chunin Exams arc.
Jonin: After the timeskip. With Kyubi forms he was already Kage level, but he couldn't really control them.
Elite Jonin / Low Kage: After Futon training.
High Kage: After Senjutsu training.
Elite Kage: After gaining Kyubi Chakra Mode.
Above Kage level: After gaining Kurama's cooperation.


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## DemonDurai (Feb 2, 2012)

What I dont understand is that people here is using Toad  summons to put Naruto in jonin or Chunin level. Yet most of the same people here argue that Kubuto Edo Summoning Power does not count  towards his level of   power. High  double standards I see going on here just because Naruto is the hero.
 DD


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## Stelios (Feb 2, 2012)

All this debate about levels... Naruto could never fit in any of those categories HELLLLOOOOOOO he had the strongest tailed beast in his belly since his birth.

/thread


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## Kanki (Feb 2, 2012)

Octavian said:


> SM naruto can beat every current kage except for Ei... i don't know what you mean by borderline low kage
> 
> anyway, here's how i see it
> 
> ...



Agreed........


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## Ghost (Feb 2, 2012)

Genin: From start to the fight with Gaara.

Chuunin: After he defeated Gaara.

low-Jounin: Start of Shippuuden.

high-Jounin: After defeating Kakuzu with FRS.

mid-Kage: When mastered Sage Mode.

beyond-Kage: KCM V1

demi-god: imperfected KCM V2.


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## G Felon (Feb 2, 2012)

SaishuSoda said:


> *Genin-*After learning Kage Bushin
> *Chunin-*Chunin Exams/Summoning Gamabunta
> *Low Jounin-*Post timeskip
> *Mid-High Jounin-*Completing _Futon :Rasenshuriken_
> ...



Yup I'd say like this


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## CheezyTeeth (Feb 2, 2012)

i am so confused with list


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## shintebukuro (Feb 2, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> For people saying Naruto was chunnin level with Gamabunta can they name a single chunnin level shinobi that could do anything to Gamabunta.  How about Jounins?  I can only think of a very select few that could do shit to Gamabunta.  Naruto was close to kage level with Gamabunta, he was fighting evenly with a bijuu at that point.



........

Naruto had no control over Gamabunta. Whatsoever. Gamabunta only helped him against Shukaku because Naruto saved GamaKichi. Had he not done that, Bunta would have just left.

I think most people understand this and naturally remove Bunta from the equation.



> With kyuubi chakra Naruto was matching Gaara, a shinobi who was likely jounin level seeing as he fought well against Kimimaro who was stated to be Orochimaru's greatest service.



Gaara made tons and tons of improvement in between fighting Naruto and Kimimaro. Same thing happened with Kankurou and Temari for that time period.

Also, as soon as Kimimaro used his strongest move, Gaara stood no chance against him.


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## MCHammerdad (Feb 2, 2012)

Philip.J.Fry said:


> He was mid kage with RM Mode?



Yes.


> He pretty much took over the war by himself.
> He fought:



Took over? 

He was acting as a sensor with KB.



> A ridiculous amount of White Zetsus



I think we saw him kill 1 batalion of white zetsu... 

I think others have killed more, namely kakashi and guy.




> Itachi



He didn't do shit to Itachi.


> Nagato



He didn't do shit to Nagato.



> Toroi



Don't know who this is, so obviously its not impressive. 



> Mu



You mean... Naruto.. + Garra + OOnki beat Muu....



> Third Raikage



Granted. Although had it been a 1v1, Naruto would have undoubtidly been captured and killed. 

All the fodder dying gave him time to think.



> Madara



Again..... Naruto + An army VS Madara...

Your giving him feats he in no way deserves. 


> Tobi
> 6 jins with a rinnegan and sharingan
> 1 tailed beast (pre kyuubi sync)



Again... until he fused with Kurama... he was getting his ass handed to him... and would have already lost had it not been for Kakashi/Guy/Bee on multible occasions.


Naruto hasn't done shit by himself until last chapter. 



> All during the same period of time, and you are going to kal him mid-kage level?



^^ considering he didn't really Accomplish much... Yes... Mid kage. 

Barring his newest mode. 

I can see any of the 5 Kage (barring Tsunade) giving him 1 hell of a run for his money. 



> A mid kage would have difficulty (or be destroyed) with anyone on that list, not including Toroi. Not to mention all of them.



Nearly anyone on that list would have destroyed naruto in a serious 1v1. 



> RM Naruto had 13 clones plus the original when he first split up. Those are 14 high-kage level ninja right there.



Yes the clones did what? 

They acted as sensors mainly... and fought a few fodder. 

All this is the Kyuubi's chakra... 



> I can't tell for certain, but the only people on that list that would stand a chance against 14 RM Narutos are Itachi, Nagato, Madara, and Tobi. And they are all legendary status.



These "14" clones... become very weak when you split them up that much... thats why all they did was spot and defend a few fodders from other fodders. 

The clones themselves did nothing of note... (unless backed up significantly)

(Dat clone isn't included in this)... he's a beast. 



> The notion of Kage Level is outdated at this point. The field is dynamic that low, mid, and high kage level cannot accurately describe someone's rank.



No... Kage is Kage... 

I think the ranks still apply. 

With God of Shinbobi tier being the only thing above it. 

If Narutos poweres with RM2 are permanent... he will officially join God Tier. 



> I can say for sure though, that if you limit it to low,mid, and high kage level, RM Naruto is high kage easy. Calling him mid-kage level is an insult.



I disagree... I'd call him Mid kage at most. 

Due to him very limited in his area's of excellence... if he was more rounded I'd probably bump him up... but kurenai could beat his ass at this point... 


(Not counting latest chapter)


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## MCHammerdad (Feb 2, 2012)

Now: to answer the OP:

Genin: Waterfall Arc. 

Chunnin: Boss summon

High Chunnin: VOTE

Potentially weaker then end of Part 1: Beginning part 2 Naruto.

Jonin: Post wind training. 

High jonin/low kage: SM Naruto. 

Mid Kage: RM Naruto. 

High Kage: Yellowflash/serious RM Naruto.

God Tier: Last chapter.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 2, 2012)

How is Sage Mode Naruto 'low Kage' after defeating Kurama, Sandaime Raikage, and five of Pain's Six Paths? How is Nine-Tailed Chakra Mode 'Mid-Kage'?

McHammerdad, I know you hate Naruto but come on. He was solid Jonin level when returning from the timeskip too.


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## Saunion (Feb 2, 2012)

DemonDurai said:


> What I dont understand is that people here is using Toad  summons to put Naruto in jonin or Chunin level. Yet most of the same people here argue that Kubuto Edo Summoning Power does not count  towards his level of   power. High  double standards I see going on here just because Naruto is the hero.
> DD



No, that's just butthurt Uchiha fans who try (and fail) to argue that people stronger than their favorite clan of magic eyeballs users have powers that "don't count". 

Naruto became Kage level with Senjutsu. Currently he's so far above it it's not funny.


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## MCHammerdad (Feb 2, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How is Sage Mode Naruto 'low Kage' after defeating Kurama



Because "defeating kurama" in this case, entailed him pulling chakra away from him.

If kurama was manifested in the real world... Naruto would be SOL. 

AND, he would have lost terribly if his mother didn't save his ass when he did fight him....




> , Sandaime Raikage



Again... SM Naruto was repeatedly saved from death at the hands of the sandaime. And his strongest techniques couldn't do anything to him.




> , and five of Pain's Six Paths?



They were severely gimped. 

Deva solo'd him when he got his powers back. 



> How is Nine-Tailed Chakra Mode 'Mid-Kage'?



Because all the kage's are capable of competing with him in that mode. 



> McHammerdad, I know you hate Naruto but come on. He was solid Jonin level when returning from the timeskip too.



I hardly "hate" naruto. I even said in all likelihood he would be immune to 99% of genjutsu with his new mode and officially enter God Tier.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 2, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> Because "defeating kurama" in this case, entailed him pulling chakra away from him.
> 
> If kurama was manifested in the real world... Naruto would be SOL.
> 
> AND, he would have lost terribly if his mother didn't save his ass when he did fight him....


Naruto defeated and overpowered Kurama. Kurama _himself_ acknowledged his power and was shocked by it. 





> Again... SM Naruto was repeatedly saved from death at the hands of the sandaime. And his strongest techniques couldn't do anything to him.


Sage Mode Naruto found out the Sandaime Raikage's weakness _on his own_ and one paneled him. And NTM Naruto did basically defeat the Sandaime Raikage if Sandaime was a living person there.





> They were severely gimped.
> 
> Deva solo'd him when he got his powers back.


They were not 'severely gimped'. Deva just lacked his abilities. Naruto basically plowed through them. 




> Because all the kage's are capable of competing with him in that mode.


You mean when Naruto is weakened from using a lot of chakra already, they are?




> I hardly "hate" naruto. I even said in all likelihood he would be immune to 99% of genjutsu with his new mode and officially enter God Tier.


You do hate Naruto. You bash his Sage Mode, you bash his training, you bash everything he does while gushing for Itachi or Sasuke. You deny things that happened in the manga, you deny his speed and strength increase, and everything.


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## MCHammerdad (Feb 2, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto defeated and overpowered Kurama. Kurama _himself_ acknowledged his power and was shocked by it.



Defeated is a relitive term in this case. Naruto pulled out the Kyuubi's Chakra. Yes.

Again... he was capable of no lasting damage against him... and the only reason he wasn't stomped within seconds is because of his mother and killer bee. 

You cannot claim he defeated the Kyuubi by himself. 




> Sage Mode Naruto found out the Sandaime Raikage's weakness _on his own_



With the Hachibee's help, and acting on both the hachibee and the rubber jonin's information. 

While hundreds of fodder died while stalling for him.


No way in hell that naruto "soloed" the third raikage. 




> and one paneled him.



Its only 1 paneling when you defeat your oponent on your first offensive atempt...


This never happened. 



> And NTM Naruto did basically defeat the Sandaime Raikage if Sandaime was a living person there.



Where did this happen? 

Because we're obviously reading different manga. 






> They were not 'severely gimped'. Deva just lacked his abilities. Naruto basically plowed through them.



Deva is the only above Jonin path in the bunch. 

Without deva Kakashi could have arguably solo'd the 5 paths of pain. 


And tbh... Kakashi did better than SM Naruto against Pain. 

He lasted quite a while and even had the potential to beat deva and asura. 

While naruto lost to just deva. 





> You mean when Naruto is weakened from using a lot of chakra already, they are?



Like deva against naruto? If it doesn't count against pain... then it can't count against naruto. 


And no, I'm not saying he wasn't tired... I'm saying he didn't solo the war. 


So lets go down the list. 

OOnki: Naruto has no counter to his flight and Jinton. 

Mei: Naruto wont' even be able to get close with her  mist justu... that was overcoming a partial susanno. Naruto would litterally melt in seconds. 

Raikage: The raikage was casually holding him and bee back with 1 hand. Talk about your "omg yellowflash dodge" all you want. Raikage to me is still faster until Naruto goes RM2. And even then until we see more feats I'm putting them even. 

If raikage was going for the kill Naruto would be in trouble. 

Tsunade: dies terribly. 

Garra: I'm not really thinking garra can do much to RM Naruto. So I'm gonna say RM takes it handily. 


So Naruto can  beat 2/5 kage's. 

Making him... Mid kage tier. 



> You do hate Naruto.



I do not. 


> You bash his Sage Mode,



I do not. 



> you bash his training,



Nope.


> you bash everything he does while gushing for Itachi or Sasuke.



Don't think I've mentioned either of those 2 in this thread....


> You deny things that happened in the manga



that happen? 

I would have to disagree.


> , you deny his speed



No, SM naruto is only slightly faster than base naruto.

I'm not denying anything.



> and strength increase, and everything.



Strength? 

I think the latest chapter with him succesfully pushing out the stake while RM1 Naruto coudln't is indication enough that he's insanely strong.


----------



## jimbob631 (Feb 2, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> ........Naruto had no control over Gamabunta. Whatsoever. Gamabunta only helped him against Shukaku because Naruto saved GamaKichi. Had he not done that, Bunta would have just left.



This is a fair point, however after that battle I'm sure Bunta would've aided Naruto and by the time Naruto faced Sasuke he had the prerequisite to summon him which was use of nine tails chakra.  





shintebukuro said:


> Gaara made tons and tons of improvement in between fighting Naruto and Kimimaro. Same thing happened with Kankurou and Temari for that time period.



He made improvement compared to his fights against Lee and Sasuke, but Lee had no idea how powerful Gaara's jinchuriki modes were.  



shintebukuro said:


> Also, as soon as Kimimaro used his strongest move, Gaara stood no chance against him.



Again we're talking about someone who was considered Orochimaru's greatest servant, putting him above Kabuto and Kakashi.  The fact that Gaara even competed speaks to how strong he is.  

I also didn't mention Naruto's use of rasengan, which allowed him to defeat Kabuto, one of the strongest jounin in the manga.  People underestimate Sasuke, Naruto, and Gaara, its clear from these facts that by that time they were already beyond chunnin level.  Can you see someone like part II Choji pre butterfly wings competing with them?  I have a hard time even seeing someone like Asuma winning, and thats not even taking into account Naruto and Sasuke's powerups at VOTE which most defientely place them at the jounin level.


----------



## Artful Lurker (Feb 2, 2012)

Jounin>>>>>>>Haku>>>>>Naruto 

Kage=When he first went 4 tails


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 2, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> Defeated is a relitive term in this case. Naruto pulled out the Kyuubi's Chakra. Yes.
> 
> Again... he was capable of no lasting damage against him... and the only reason he wasn't stomped within seconds is because of his mother and killer bee.
> 
> You cannot claim he defeated the Kyuubi by himself.


Naruto was the one who overpowered Kurama twice. First in 497 and second in 499. Both times, Naruto had clearly beaten Kurama since he was having trouble getting up and was vulnerable. 

Bee was knocked out before the fight proper even began, and Kushina didn't do any of the heavy lifting in the battle.



> With the Hachibee's help, and acting on both the hachibee and the rubber jonin's information.
> 
> While hundreds of fodder died while stalling for him.


Gyuki didn't even KNOW HOW he damaged the Third. Neither did Dodai. Naruto had to figure it out _on his own._ Did you forget those facts? Oh yeah, of course you did.



> No way in hell that naruto "soloed" the third raikage.


Both times when they went one-on-one, Sandaime Raikage was beaten.





> Its only 1 paneling when you defeat your oponent on your first offensive atempt...


Naruto defeated him twice, basically. 



> Where did this happen?
> 
> Because we're obviously reading different manga.


After the Futon: Rasenshuriken impact, he was laying on the ground in a similar situation that Kakuzu had, and was regenerating. If he was alive instead of a Edo Tensei, he'd have either died or would have been crippled for life.







> Deva is the only above Jonin path in the bunch.
> 
> Without deva Kakashi could have arguably solo'd the 5 paths of pain.


...Deva the only 'above Jonin path' and Kakashi could have soloed Five Paths of Pain?!

Did you miss Animal Path pressuring Jiraiya (who is stronger than Kakashi) alone? Did you miss Preta, Human, and Animal forcing Sage Mode Jiraiya into a retreat?

Kakashi couldn't even handle Asura and Deva on his own.



> And tbh... Kakashi did better than SM Naruto against Pain.
> 
> He lasted quite a while and even had the potential to beat deva and asura.
> 
> While naruto lost to just deva.


Do you remember all the help Kakashi got to just fight Deva? Naruto fought him on his own. You really love degrading Naruto's feats and exaggerating a Sharingan user's.






> Like deva against naruto? If it doesn't count against pain... then it can't count against naruto.


Naruto had fought an extended battle already with Pain. 



> And no, I'm not saying he wasn't tired... I'm saying he didn't solo the war.


...did you miss all the panels where Naruto's mere presence turned the tide?



> So lets go down the list.
> 
> OOnki: Naruto has no counter to his flight and Jinton.


Naruto can speedblitz him, sense him, and outfight him.


> Mei: Naruto wont' even be able to get close with her  mist justu... that was overcoming a partial susanno. Naruto would litterally melt in seconds.


Speedblitz or Rasenshuriken. Mei has shown neither the speed to deal with either.


> Raikage: The raikage was casually holding him and bee back with 1 hand. Talk about your "omg yellowflash dodge" all you want. Raikage to me is still faster until Naruto goes RM2. And even then until we see more feats I'm putting them even.


...A admitted Naruto was faster than him! And Naruto wasn't fighting back there and YOU KNOW IT. 


> If raikage was going for the kill Naruto would be in trouble.


If Naruto was in for the kill, A'd probably be dead. 
ing garra can do much to RM Naruto. So I'm gonna say RM takes it handily. 



> So Naruto can  beat 2/5 kage's.
> 
> Making him... Mid kage tier.


Naruto's faster than them all in NTM, and can solo them like he did with Mu and the Third Raikage. You ignore Naruto didn't even want to fight A, can speedblitz both Onoki and Mei, and has the elemental advantage over A and the reflexes and speed to deal with him. 




> I do not.


Yes, you do. You don't give him ANY credit until the manga forces you to. And even then you deny that Naruto was faster than A just in NTM.



> I do not.


Yes, you do.




> Nope.


Deny all you want.



> Don't think I've mentioned either of those 2 in this thread....


I'm talking about in general. That's your whole attitude.



> that happen?
> 
> I would have to disagree.


Whenever Naruto speed feats are posted, you deny them. Whenever other feats are posted, you ignore and deny them.



> No, SM naruto is only slightly faster than base naruto.
> 
> I'm not denying anything.


Naruto is far faster in Sage Mode than he is in base and you know it. You just deny ANY feats that disprove you and call them 'dynamic entry' even though we know where Naruto's starting point is. Anytime anyone posts a speed feat, you say 'No, A's still faster', 'no, its dynamic entry', etc. 




> Strength?
> 
> I think the latest chapter with him succesfully pushing out the stake while RM1 Naruto coudln't is indication enough that he's insanely strong.


THink about this, if Naruto can toss a Rhino in Sage Mode showing his physical strength increase, why isn't his speed getting the same increase?


----------



## Turrin (Feb 2, 2012)

This is how I see Naruto's growth 

Chapter 1: Academy Student
Explanation: He couldn't do all the skills necessary to advanced to Genin, so obviously he was still Academy Student "level"

After TKB: Mid Genin
Explanation: Gave him a greater power boost, but he still didn't have good mastery of the basics, so I still think he's on the mid side. When he taps into Kurama's chakra like when he used the massive TKB against Mizuki he's obviously much stronger, but consistently he performs at a Mid Genin "level"

After Wave Arc Training: High Genin
Explanation: During the Bell Test and Wave Arc Naruto not only learned more of the basic Genin skills like channeling chakra to ones feat, but also learned many of the basic concepts of how to be a Ninja, therefore I see him as a complete Genin by the end of this arc. Again with Kurama's chakra he obviously performs at a much higher level, but in general he performs about average for a Genin at this point imo.

After J-man's Training in the Chuunin Exam Arc: Top Tier Genin 
Explanation: J-man's training not only gave Naruto a greater understanding of the basics, but allowed him to call out a small portion of Kurama's chakra on command, making him top tier among Genin & we see this in how he is able to fight a close battle with Neiji and eventually pull out a win.

After Rasengan Training in the Sannin Arc: Mid Chuunin
Explanation: Naruto after: Not only gained a great understanding of higher order ninja skills like shape manipulation, but he also mastered a Jonin level skill, which should be enough to put him on Mid Chuunin level imo, especially since he could take on Sound 4 member who were all Mid Chuunin level imo.


After Powering up During his fight with Sasuke in the Final Arc of Part I: High Chuunin'
Explanation: KN1 even used briefly should give Naruto a decent shot against High level Chuunin just due to it's raw power and defense.

Start of Part II: Special Jonin 
Explanation: He was Jonin level in strength but I don't think he was Jonin level in experience, knowledge, etc... shown by how his inexperience caused many problems on the Suna and Rescue Sasuke mission V2 when he went out on his own transforming into tailed forms.

After Rescue Arc V2: Mid Jonin
Explanation: During these two arcs I believe Naruto gains the experience and knowledge holding him back which culminates in him realizing he can't simply rely on Kurama and go berserk on his own.

Post Wind Training: Top Tier Jonin
Explanation: He showed he had the skills to defeat Kakuzu, who even weakened would be  High Jonin level imo. Also Kakashi who at that point is Top Tier Jonin said Naruto was equal to him.

Post Senjutsu Training: Mid Kage
Explanation: Some people might think he is high Kage level, but people have to realize that Kage level is very broad, so High Kages are ridiculously powerful people, while Top Tier are characters like Prime Hiruzen, Hashirama, and Minato.

Post RM 1: Mid Kage
Explanation: At first Naruto didn't have great control over this form and it shows. When he started out with it I don't think his strength change that much though he can be seen as the higher end of Mid Kage now, almost reaching High Kage

Post Itachi/Nagato Battle: High Kage
Explanation: He gained further mastery of RM 1 at this point and greater knowledge as simply as that

Post RM V2: Top Tier Kage For 5min, outside of it High Kage
Explanation: You can go back and read my recent post history for this one.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 2, 2012)

Izumo and Kotetsu regarded Naruto and Neji as "Chuunin-level" in terms of power after they fought during the Chuunin Exams.

Naruto moved up to Jounin-level over the timeskip and just barely reached Kage-level after his Fuuton training.

Sennin Moodo made him high Kage-level and he's only gotten stronger since.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Feb 2, 2012)

Sage mode training put him high kage. With killerbee jiraiya and itachi

RM fully mastered put him top tier with Nagato(pain), Edo madara, and minato

KM current put him god tier with Tobi(bijuus controlled) and Kabuto


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## Turrin (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't see how it makes sense for RM V2, which he can only maintain for 5min to have put Naruto beyond Top Tier Kages or Top Tier Kage "level". 

Hashirama had multiple Bijuu under his command and was able to take Madara's control over Kurama away and impose his own control, meaning at his strongest Hashirama had control over Full Power Kurama, not just the Yang Half. We don't know how long Hashirama could maintain that control, but it's not like Naruto doesn't have his own time-limit.

Like wise Madara also could control the Full Power of Kurama not just the Yang Half, the amount of time he could summon Kurama is indicated to be brief, but again Naruto has his own brief time-limit as well.

Prime Hiruzen is suppose to be stronger than Hashirama, even if it's slight that still makes him hellishly strong.

Minato clearly showed he can contend with and seal Kurama's Full power, perhaps he needed a little help from Kushina (though perhaps not if he wasn't heavily chakra drained before hand), but it's not like Naruto has the Full power of the Fox at his command right now & he has a time-limit on how long he can use just the Fox's Yang Power. Plus Minato is indicated to above Hiruzen and Hashirama.

So Yeah Top Tier Kage still seems above Naruto overall to me or at the very least they should be on the same Tier, saying Naruto is a tier above, really doesn't make sense in context with the story line, considering all the Top Tier Kages or Top Tier Kage "level" individuals ether had the power of Full Power Kurama not just the Yang Kurama under their command at one point or another, or they have the power to contend with a Full Power Kurama not just the Yang half.

Also Naruto certainly has not shown he is on par with Kabuto yet, just one of Kabuto's Tensei Edo Madara is enough to contest Naruto and probably win given Naruto's lack of means to bind or seal Madara, however add in Kabuto's entire army and Naruto still gets destroyed by the combined might of all those Tensei. As for Tobi we'll see how close Naruto has come to him in the comming chapters, but I do not think chapter 572 Naruto would win against Tobi by himself ether, we'll see though.


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## Missing_Nin (Feb 3, 2012)

people putting rm naruto at mid kage wtf?  His clone took out a kage.  Repeat, his clone.  13 raikage would eff up a shitload of people.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Feb 3, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how it makes sense for RM V2, which he can only maintain for 5min to have put Naruto beyond Top Tier Kages or Top Tier Kage "level".



If hashirama could actually control the bijuu in a battle, he wouldn't have needed to make his wife the jinchuriki. Using that information and looking at how yamato uses his powers, im guessing he can just completely contain the kyuubi, but not utilize it in battle, but his containment can overpower uchiha level control. 

For 5 minutes he can fight 5 bijuu, deflect menacing balls like nothing, is much faster than anyone in the world, and what fight would last more than 5 minutes against this naruto? Only tobi with 5 bijuu and maybe kabuto. 

Also, karuma is a part of naruto, meaning he has access to him at all times, madara, as weve seen, can't summon him whenever he wants because hes inside a jinchuriki. Its also easier to take out hashirama and madara even if they are controlling the bijuu because they cant freely go through the bijuus limbs and completely control their fused selves and they dont get physical stat boosts or defenses. Meaning someone like minato could just blitz kill madara or hashirama and then hes left fighting the fox.




> Prime Hiruzen is suppose to be stronger than Hashirama, even if it's slight that still makes him hellishly strong.



He probably is stronger, hashiramas in battle feats are garbage. We can only go by extremely vague hype from a madara battle, the same madara who would have been paneled by gaara and a sage clone if it wasn't for an asspull rennigan transformation.



> Minato clearly showed he can contend with and seal Kurama's Full power, perhaps he needed a little help from Kushina (though perhaps not if he wasn't heavily chakra drained before hand), but it's not like Naruto has the Full power of the Fox at his command right now & he has a time-limit on how long he can use just the Fox's Yang Power. Plus Minato is indicated to above Hiruzen and Hashirama.



Minato could contend and seal karuma's full power, but hes not going to be able to tag naruto if naruto stay out of full fox form like he was when he was countering the bijuu balls. Minato won't be able to counter his speed either as hes going to be wayyyy faster than the raikage and have nigh unlimited stamina. 

Also, saying naruto doesn't have the full power of the fox right now holds no merit, as for 1 we know the bijuu gets stronger if it has a host, and we don't know if narutos chakra makes up for the mising yang. Minato countered a menacing ball yes, but naruto can resort to just plain 100% jinchuriki taijutsu with his speed which minato didn't haveto deal with vs the kyuubi.

This naruto fighting kabuto would speed blitz kabuto, then he would have trouble with all the edo's, we don't know if he completely obliterates them will they regenerate? But madara has shown nothing that can come close to defeating naruto and if he could subdue or taken control of the kyuubi while in naruto, tobi would have done it ages ago. If naruto kills kabuto right away hes its an auto tie atleast, and then once kabuto dies his control over the edo's won't work and the good ones would most likely fight the bad ones.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 3, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> Now: to answer the OP:
> 
> Genin: Waterfall Arc.
> 
> ...



No he was jounin level at beginning of part 2 in base actually. Mid jounin level. With kyuubi he was actually already kage level. Naruto after wind training was on par with Kakashi someone who is kage level considering he was about to become the rokudaime hokage. So no. Post training he was beyond jounin level at kage level. In SM, he defeated the Sandaime Raikage, was on par with/surpassed Jiraiya, pushed Pain further than anyone else, held his own with the strongest Bjuu, and was said to be on par with MS Sasuke who had a draw with Yondaime Raikage, defeated the interim Rokudaime Hokage, and in a weaker form defeated the S-class ninja Deidara. SM Naruto is high kage level dude haha. RM Naruto is beyond that.

Please know the manga before making posts demeaning Naruto. I know you don't like him but leave your bias out of your arguments.


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## ceralux (Feb 3, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Izumo and Kotetsu regarded Naruto and Neji as "Chuunin-level" in terms of power after they fought during the Chuunin Exams.
> 
> Naruto moved up to Jounin-level over the timeskip and just barely reached Kage-level after his Fuuton training.
> 
> Sennin Moodo made him high Kage-level and he's only gotten stronger since.



This is accurate and simple. I don't know why others are going in great detail for such a simple question.


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## Coldhands (Feb 3, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Naruto had no control over Gamabunta. Whatsoever. Gamabunta only helped him against Shukaku because Naruto saved GamaKichi. Had he not done that, Bunta would have just left.
> 
> I think most people understand this and naturally remove Bunta from the equation.



Actually Naruto gained Gamabunta's respect in that fight against Gaara. Naruto saved Gamakichi and then Bunta said that he now recognizes Naruto as his underling... 

After that Bunta has always helped Naruto no questions asked.


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## Maou Saga (Feb 3, 2012)

tanman said:


> Genin: Chapter 1
> Chunin: Chunin Exam Preliminaries
> Low Jonin: Find Tsunade
> Mid Jonin: Rescue Sasuke
> ...



Mmm...not sure if he would be considered Jounin-level during the Tsunade arc since he had JUST mastered the Rasengan...but yeah, he was def Jounin-level byt the Sasuke arc.

Aside from the Rookie 11, Chunins are overrated.
During their battle on the hospital's roof Naruto & Sasuke were borderline Jounin level already. I mean, if you look at "regular" Jounins/Special Jounins you get people like Anko :/

I mean, KB-spamming + Rasengan + Bunta + "kinda" controlled KN0...and just what Chunin in Konoha could stand up to that? Iruka?



shintebukuro said:


> ........
> 
> Naruto had no control over Gamabunta. Whatsoever. Gamabunta only helped him against Shukaku because Naruto saved GamaKichi. Had he not done that, Bunta would have just left.
> 
> I think most people understand this and naturally remove Bunta from the equation.



When Gamakichi told his dad Naruto had protected him, he didn't only agreed to help him. He also agreed to make him his "subordinate" and stuff.

Even if back then Naruto was still far from fighting with Bunta as actual partners, that sole reason implies that from then on, if Naruto ever summoned Bunta whenever he was in real danger, Bunta would help him. Even if he didn't felt like it, since he was tied by the "family code" thing.


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## Spanktastik (Feb 3, 2012)

Turrin said:


> This is how I see Naruto's growth
> 
> Chapter 1: Academy Student
> Explanation: He couldn't do all the skills necessary to advanced to Genin, so obviously he was still Academy Student "level"
> ...






After time skip Naruto was still chuunin lv, he did not perform better then other chuunins at that point like Sai for example. Only when using the kyuubi chakra he could out perform them. But as we all known the kyuubi chakra was very unstable. 

It was not untill he gained wind mastery, that he ascends chuunin and becomes jounin, he also changed his fighting style after all. 

With SM he was definitely kage material, we all know how someone like Jiraiya performed vs Pain. Naruto did way better, the only thing that kept him from high kage was the time limit. However next to his amazing power increase he also showed great wit this battle. Main problem thus being time limit and to weak of a base.

Vs Kyuubi and during the war, he did step his game up in SM, in raw power, with SM TKB, super giant rasengan and Rasengan barrage. We have also seen him enter SM on numerous occasions quite fast and using huge rasengans even in base. I would say high kage.  




Turrin said:


> I don't see how it makes sense for RM V2, which he can only maintain for 5min to have put Naruto beyond Top Tier Kages or Top Tier Kage "level".
> 
> Hashirama had multiple Bijuu under his command and was able to take Madara's control over Kurama away and impose his own control, meaning at his strongest Hashirama had control over Full Power Kurama, not just the Yang Half. We don't know how long Hashirama could maintain that control, but it's not like Naruto doesn't have his own time-limit.
> 
> ...




With RM however he is top tier kage lv. Not Itachi, not Minato, not Killer Bee or Nagato could come close to how he influenced all battle fields. Naruto definitely was the greatest asset on the alliance. Naruto was severly gimped vs sandaime/tsuchikage/Nagato/Itachi yet except for Nagato and Itachi he outperformed those. You cannot neglect that he had his chakras wide spread and could not use his most favoured jutsu. 

Now with full Kyuubi cooperation he enters legendary status. The major fault in your reasoning is keep stating that full Kyuubi > BM Kyuubi. But no matter how you look at it, Jinchuuriki + Bijuu> Bijuu. More so is the case for Naruto and Kyuubi since they have this particular cloack. In which Naruto could easily handle these Bijuu. Nothing indicates Naruto is any weaker.

Even without the full mode he could deflect bijuu dama. For real Turrin stop this madness with Minato > BM Naruto and whatever. The fact that you can seal or control a bijuu does not mean you are on the same or a higher lv, this is a 2nd mistake in your reasoning.  Just looking at Minato's feats is enough, he was not on Madara's lv. Which is why he planted Kyuubi in Naruto so Naruto would ascend this lv. This is what Naaruto did last chapter. 

Dont kid yourself, no body had this kind of perfect control over Bijuu's like Naruto has with the Kyuubi.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 3, 2012)

genin= chapter 1
chunin= toad training
low jounin= time skip
mid jounin= wind training
mid kage= SM
high kage= RM
god= BM


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## Freespace2dotcom (Feb 3, 2012)

I feel that he's still genin level. *MAYBE* chuunin Sure he's got power, and has for a while, but I still think he's too irresponsible. power level has almost nothing to do with it.


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## Adagio (Feb 3, 2012)

Freespace2dotcom said:


> I feel that he's still genin level. *MAYBE* chuunin Sure he's got power, and has for a while, but I still think he's too irresponsible. power level has almost nothing to do with it.



Yes, because all Chuunin are masters of tactics and logic. 

He is only Genin by name.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 3, 2012)

I want to add kyubi powered naruto

chunin=  KN0 vs haku
low jounin= KN1 vs sasuke
mid jounin= KN2
high jounin= KN3
mid kage= KN4
high kage= KN6
satan= KN8


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## Coldhands (Feb 3, 2012)

To be honest Naruto's tactics in battle are one of the most ingenious in the whole series. He doesn't have the "book smarts" but in battle he's one of the best tacticians in Narutoverse.


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2012)

DarkRasengan said:


> If hashirama could actually control the bijuu in a battle, he wouldn't have needed to make his wife the jinchuriki. Using that information and looking at how yamato uses his powers, im guessing he can just completely contain the kyuubi, but not utilize it in battle, but his containment can overpower uchiha level control.


Hashirama could clearly control the Bijuu since he is mentioned in the same vien as Madara, B, and Yagura at the Kage summit. The reason he probably needed Mito to seal it is because he could only control it for a certain time frame. 




> For 5 minutes he can fight 5 bijuu, deflect menacing balls like nothing, is much faster than anyone in the world, and what fight would last more than 5 minutes against this naruto? Only tobi with 5 bijuu and maybe kabuto.


And Madara who can summon the Full Power Demon Fox against him, Hashirama who could potentially suppress the Demon Fox's power or again use his own Full Power Demon Fox against him, or Minato who has the tools to defend against that form. Prime Hiruzen by hype as well.



> Also, karuma is a part of naruto, meaning he has access to him at all times, madara, as weve seen, can't summon him whenever he wants because hes inside a jinchuriki. Its also easier to take out hashirama and madara even if they are controlling the bijuu because they cant freely go through the bijuus limbs and completely control their fused selves and they dont get physical stat boosts or defenses. Meaning someone like minato could just blitz kill madara or hashirama and then hes left fighting the fox.


The same is true of Tobi, but Naruto couldn't just go after Tobi, he had to fight his way through the Bijuu first. 



> He probably is stronger, hashiramas in battle feats are garbage. We can only go by extremely vague hype from a madara battle, the same madara who would have been paneled by gaara and a sage clone if it wasn't for an asspull rennigan transformation.


He didn't have Kurama there, you should know how valuable Kurama's power is in battle.



> Minato could contend and seal karuma's full power, but hes not going to be able to tag naruto if naruto stay out of full fox form like he was when he was countering the bijuu balls. Minato won't be able to counter his speed either as hes going to be wayyyy faster than the raikage and have nigh unlimited stamina.


Minato should be able to handle Naruto's speed through the use of FTG. I have no clue how Naruto would dodge the invisible Death God, but even if he some how can, Minato does not need to tag Naruto during the 5min he just has to survive them & between FTG & S/T Barrier this shouldn't be a problem for Minato.



> Also, saying naruto doesn't have the full power of the fox right now holds no merit, as for 1 we know the bijuu gets stronger if it has a host, and we don't know if narutos chakra makes up for the mising yang. Minato countered a menacing ball yes, but naruto can resort to just plain 100% jinchuriki taijutsu with his speed which minato didn't haveto deal with vs the kyuubi.


I tend to agree that Naruto makes up for the lost Yin half, but even if that is the case, it would only make RM V2 Naruto equal to the Full Power Fox which we already saw Minato can contend with.



> This naruto fighting kabuto would speed blitz kabuto,


Naruto wouldn't speed blitz Kabuto, because the Edo's would defend for him.



> then he would have trouble with all the edo's, we don't know if he completely obliterates them will they regenerate?


Deidara clearly believed he'd regenerate if he used CO and Madara thought he'd be fine if he was obliterated by the duel meteor technique, so they clearly do regenerate even from being completely obliterated.



> But madara has shown nothing that can come close to defeating naruto and if he could subdue or taken control of the kyuubi while in naruto, tobi would have done it ages ago.


Again he does not need to defeat V2 Naruto he just has to outlast the time limit which he should be able to easily due considering: Susano'o, Ghost Path's Power, & Edo Regeneration. Though I'd say duel meteors is something that would put pressure on RM V2 Naruto.



> If naruto kills kabuto right away hes its an auto tie atleast, and then once kabuto dies his control over the edo's won't work and the good ones would most likely fight the bad ones.


Again Naruto has to fight his way through the Edo's to do this, which he won't be able to do.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 3, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Hashirama could clearly control the Bijuu since he is mentioned in the same vien as Madara, B, and Yagura at the Kage summit. The reason he probably needed Mito to seal it is because he could only control it for a certain time frame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again we don't know the extent of hashiramas control at all, its not the same for tobi since he can phase through everything anyways, naruto doesnt haveto fight through the edos because hes much too fast for any of them.


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2012)

DarkRasengan said:


> Again we don't know the extent of hashiramas control at all



The we don't know the extent of his control, only means just that, we don't know. Therefore you have no proven RM V2 > Hashirama, your essentially just arguing that we don't know, and we don't know is not enough to put Naruto beyond Hashirama's "level". Beyond that like I said before the fact that Hashirama was mentioned in the same vein as B, Madara, & Yagura suggest that he had the same degree of control as them, so it's reaching at this point to think he could only suppress Kurama. However even if that's the case what is stopping him from suppressing Naruto's RM V2 state if his suppression is really powerful enough were it overcame EMS Madara's control and the full power of Kurama? 



> its not the same for tobi since he can phase through everything anyways


It's not a matter of Tobi's defense i'm speaking towards the fact that Naruto did not have the chance to go after Tobi to even put those defensive techniques to the test, since he was preoccupied with the Bijuu's attacks. I don't see how Naruto can simply avoid a full power Kurama, if he turns his back on something like that he's going to end up eating a Bijuu Dama and being killed. 



> naruto doesnt haveto fight through the edos because hes much too fast for any of them.


I doubt he's too fast for all of those Edo's at once and even if he could blitz past them, the same issue still remains if he turns his back on that many Edo's he's going to be killed.


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## MCHammerdad (Feb 3, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto was the one who overpowered Kurama twice.



WITH HELP.


> First in 497 and second in 499. Both times, Naruto had clearly beaten Kurama since he was having trouble getting up and was vulnerable.



Want to know why he had trouble getting up. 

He got hit with a rasengan barrage while Naruto's mother held him down. 

Thats like saying I beat you in a 1v1, while my friend held you down.

Thats utter bullshit. 



> Bee was knocked out before the fight proper even began, and Kushina didn't do any of the heavy lifting in the battle.



Be was "knocked out" saving naruto's ass. 

The fight would have ended in the first minute had bee not been there. 


Unless ofcourse you think base naruto can tank a bijuudama. 




> Gyuki didn't even KNOW HOW he damaged the Third.



I never said he did. 

But without him giving Naruto that info, naruto would have never come up with that strategy. 



> Neither did Dodai. Naruto had to figure it out _on his own._ Did you forget those facts? Oh yeah, of course you did.



Had neither of them given him information... there wouldn't have been anything to "figure out" and they all would have died to that 1 kage. 




> Both times when they went one-on-one, Sandaime Raikage was beaten.



I recall only once where he was beaten. By his own attack. 






> Naruto defeated him twice, basically.



Again... no. 

Naruto only "beat him" once. 




> After the Futon: Rasenshuriken impact, he was laying on the ground in a similar situation that Kakuzu had, and was regenerating.



Regenerating would imply that he was hurt. 

He wasn't hurt at all. 



> If he was alive instead of a Edo Tensei, he'd have either died or would have been crippled for life.



The rasenshruiken had no effect.

Didn't hurt him in the slightest. 








> ...Deva the only 'above Jonin path' and Kakashi could have soloed Five Paths of Pain?!


But yes, Kakashi and guy who are officially jonin. 

Can easily beat any of the 5 paths barring deva 1v1. And I'd even say they could take deva if he doesn't bring out the CST's. 

Granted I said: Arguably. 



> Did you miss Animal Path pressuring Jiraiya (who is stronger than Kakashi) alone? Did you miss Preta, Human, and Animal forcing Sage Mode Jiraiya into a retreat?



Animal Presuring Jiraiya? 

You mean while he was prepping from SM and couldn't move? 

Not much of a feat. 


And as for the 3, he beat them with genjutsu, and they didn't scratch him once.



> Kakashi couldn't even handle Asura and Deva on his own.



He nearly did, and all this against a fully capable deva. 

More than Naruto did. 




> Do you remember all the help Kakashi got to just fight Deva? Naruto fought him on his own. You really love degrading Naruto's feats and exaggerating a Sharingan user's.



It was deva vs Kakashi. 

Then deva brought in backup, so kakashi then... brought in backup. 

I dont' think it was unfair in the slightest. 


And again... the second Deva got his powers back against naruto... he was stomped. 

Something that deva couldn't do to kakashi. 






> ...did you miss all the panels where Naruto's mere presence turned the tide?



No, I clearly stated earlier that he acted as a sensor. 



> Naruto can speedblitz him, sense him, and outfight him.



RM Naruto has yet to speedblitz ANYONE who hasn't had their back turned on him. 

When he blitzes someone we'll talk. 



> Speedblitz or Rasenshuriken. Mei has shown neither the speed to deal with either.



Again... Naruto has never speedblitzed anyone. 

And for the rasenshruiken, it'll have to be thrown from range, and she'll just doge it. 

I'd say he atleast has jonin level speed. 



> ...A admitted Naruto was faster than him!



Well this just plain never happened. 



> And Naruto wasn't fighting back there and YOU KNOW IT.



And A was? 



> If Naruto was in for the kill, A'd probably be dead.



How do you figure? 



> Naruto's faster than them all in NTM, and can solo them like he did with Mu and the Third Raikage.



If this is your idea of solo... I think I've made my point. 



> You ignore Naruto didn't even want to fight A



A didn't want to fight naruto either. He simply wanted him to go back.


> , can speedblitz both Onoki and Mei,



This is ofcourse, an assumption on your part. 


> and has the elemental advantage over A and the reflexes and speed to deal with him.



I just don't see A getting tagged with any of naruto's techniques... Hes to fast. 

And as for Naruto's speed? Raikage has just as much if not more.... and is much much stronger. 



> Yes, you do. You don't give him ANY credit until the manga forces you to. And even then you deny that Naruto was faster than A just in NTM.



I do deny that yes. 


> I'm talking about in general. That's your whole attitude.



Again... If i haven't mentioned either of them... I don't see the point of bringing this up. 



> Whenever Naruto speed feats are posted, you deny them. Whenever other feats are posted, you ignore and deny them.



Thats clearly because we differ on what constitutes as a "feat". 


> Naruto is far faster in Sage Mode than he is in base and you know it.



If I knew it, I wouldn't be saying otherwise. 

I have seen all of his fights, and all I can say is this. 

His reflexes are increased due to SM, and his strength and durability is as well. 

I have seen nothing in a proper fight that showed him having ANY increased speed over base. 



> You just deny ANY feats that disprove you and call them 'dynamic entry' even though we know where Naruto's starting point is.



Wrong, you knew where naruto's starting point WAS. 

Unless you see him start a "blitz" you have no idea where he started from or when he started. 



> Anytime anyone posts a speed feat, you say 'No, A's still faster', 'no, its dynamic entry', etc.



If I didn't believe it I wouldn't be saying it. 

and yes, i think a is faster than rm naruto.



> THink about this, if Naruto can toss a Rhino in Sage Mode showing his physical strength increase, why isn't his speed getting the same increase?



Can someone who can deadlift 1 ton, and bench 800 pounds, outrun a track star? 

Ofcourse they can't.


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## LostSelf (Feb 3, 2012)

Naruto was chunnin level when he was enraged and took down Mizuki.


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## Lord_Tenchi (Feb 3, 2012)

O rly?

This is how skill level is defined in the manga, and based on this I would say naruto was
Genin: master Kage Bushin
Chunin: after beating Gaara
Jounin: in terms of power at VOTE or maybe special Jounin
Kage: beating Pein


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## Whirlpool (Feb 3, 2012)

Ed
o Madara;41964240 said:
			
		

> I want to add kyubi powered naruto
> 
> chunin=  KN0 vs haku
> low jounin= KN1 vs sasuke
> ...



I've said satan-tier a few times now, if you goit it from me I am so proud  and if not...

Then me and you are just two fucking geniuses


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## Deshi Basara (Feb 3, 2012)

*


			
				MCHammerdad said:
			
		


			He nearly did, and all this against a fully capable deva. 

 More than Naruto did.
		
Click to expand...




Naruto stomped 5 paths at the same place at the same time, having all the advantages of shared vision and almost all of their powers.Kakashi failed to even touch one path without help and he only had 2 opponents.1 at the beginning.

And what a joke "fully capable deva"  Naruto is the only one who faced Deva with all the chakra focused on him and having Nagato's undivided attention.Something that was stated by Konan to bring better results.




			It was deva vs Kakashi. 

 Then deva brought in backup, so kakashi then... brought in backup. 

 I dont' think it was unfair in the slightest.
		
Click to expand...


Asura didn't do much against Kakashi.The fat duo on the other hand crushed Asura.Something Kakashi failed to do on his own.




			And again... the second Deva got his powers back against naruto... he was stomped.
		
Click to expand...


The second Deva got his powers back, only Naruto's frogs were stomped.A few seconds later, Naruto turned Prweta into a frog, though at the cost of his Sage Mode.. and only later BASE Naruto got owned by Deva.




			Something that deva couldn't do to kakashi.
		
Click to expand...


Um, excuse me?I don't remember Asura landing a finger on Kakashi.IT WAS ALL DEVA.And that was Deva with Nagato's divided attention to 4 other places at once, with a lot less chakra pumped into him, and against fresh Kakashi and the fat duo.





			RM Naruto has yet to speedblitz ANYONE who hasn't had their back turned on him. 

 When he blitzes someone we'll talk. 

Quote: Speedblitz or Rasenshuriken. Mei has shown neither the speed to deal with either. 

Again... Naruto has never speedblitzed anyone. 

 And for the rasenshruiken, it'll have to be thrown from range, and she'll just doge it. 

 I'd say he atleast has jonin level speed.
		
Click to expand...


That's your argument?Yeah, you're done.





			And for the rasenshruiken, it'll have to be thrown from range, and she'll just doge it.
		
Click to expand...


Dodging FRS requires "Incredibly fast" speed or shared vision.





			Well this just plain never happened.
		
Click to expand...


Ei said that the savior (Minato) lived inside of Naruto for being only the 2d person after Minato who was faster than Ei, to dodge his fastest punch. 





			This is ofcourse, an assumption on your part.
		
Click to expand...


Actually, NO.Naruto is the fastest person alive.Learn to deal with it or you won't get anywhere.




			I just don't see A getting tagged with any of naruto's techniques... Hes to fast. 

 And as for Naruto's speed? Raikage has just as much if not more.... and is much much stronger.
		
Click to expand...


Naruto can tag faster than his SM opponents, and hes the fastest in RM.So Ei isn't avoiding shit.




			I have seen nothing in a proper fight that showed him having ANY increased speed over base.
		
Click to expand...


The Asura feat and Sandaime feat.





			If I didn't believe it I wouldn't be saying it. 

 and yes, i think a is faster than rm naruto.
		
Click to expand...


Please stop embarrassing yourself.*


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## MCHammerdad (Feb 3, 2012)

畜生道 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Please only respond to posts directed at you. Unless ofcourse you ask the original person I was debating with. 


I have no interest in debating with your because you never actually debate.

You simply repeat the same lines endlessly and act like your opinion is absolute fact.


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## Deshi Basara (Feb 3, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> Please only respond to posts directed at you. Unless ofcourse you ask the original person I was debating with.



*Please, DON'T EVER tell me what to do.




			You simply repeat the same lines endlessly
		
Click to expand...


Something that has to be done considering you keep forgetting what I have said or Kishi has stated and showed.




			act like your opinion is absolute fact.
		
Click to expand...


My opinion is supported by canon.That's all there is to it.*


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## maltyy (Feb 3, 2012)

Chuunin: Tsunade arc (after learning Rasengan)
Jounin: Kakuzu & Hidan arc (after learning FRS)
Low Kage: SM
High Kage: KCM


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## VoDe (Feb 3, 2012)

Genin: mastering Kage Bushin
Chunin: after beating Gaara
Special Jounin: VoTE
Jounin: start of part 2
Low Kage: after beating Kakuzu
High Kage: mastering Senjutsu

After that ninja ranks became irrelevant.


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## cieloazul (Feb 3, 2012)

Chunin- learned the rasengan
special jonin- post time skip
jonin- developed rasenshuriken
kage- defeats pain

defeating 1 opponent of a certain level doesn't necessarily make a character on that level. it's a combination of ability and skill. naruto's always had the ability but until recently, he lacked a lot of skill.


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## DemonDurai (Feb 4, 2012)

People here should stop saying Naruto Defeat Pain 

DD


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## SaishuSoda (Feb 4, 2012)

DemonDurai said:


> People here should stop saying Naruto Defeat Pain
> 
> DD



What the hell is that supposed to mean?

He did defeat Pain, what else is there to call it. 

Sure, Pain was handicapped most the first half of the fight but a win is a win. That's like saying Pain's didn't defeat Jiraiya because it was technically 6vs1 and they used a surprise attack.

They're shinobi. What was Naruto supposed to do, wait patiently for Deva to come off of cooldown?


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## DemonDurai (Feb 4, 2012)

SaishuSoda said:


> What the hell is that supposed to mean?
> 
> He did defeat Pain, what else is there to call it.
> 
> ...


I am not sure if this is your attempt at humour or you are been serious.
 
 DD


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## SaishuSoda (Feb 4, 2012)

DemonDurai said:


> I am not sure if this is your attempt at humour or you are been serious.
> 
> DD



Instead of spamming faces, you could explain your point?

Explain how Naruto did not defeat Pain please.


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## ceralux (Feb 4, 2012)

SaishuSoda said:


> Instead of spamming faces, you could explain your point?
> 
> Explain how Naruto did not defeat Pain please.



Naruto did defeat Nagato, but he was far from being his equal in terms of power. Only a Narutard would argue against Nagato > Naruto up until the latest couple of chapters.


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## SaishuSoda (Feb 4, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Naruto did defeat Nagato, but he was far from being his equal in terms of power. Only a Narutard would argue against Nagato > Naruto up until the latest couple of chapters.



Yeah, I never said he equaled Nagato in power at that point in the manga or even implied it. Regardless of the handicap he got (deva being on cooldown, Nagato's bad health) he did win. 

This isn't the 1700's where men line up in a straight line on leveled field and wait until the other side says they're ready. In other words, they're shinobi it doesn't matter if its fair or not. A win is a win.


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## blackminato (Feb 4, 2012)

People on this forum don't make any sense at all. They let their hard ons speak for them. They see naruto with a powerup and thinks it makes him a better ninja when he's in his base state.
Genin=after he learned the shadow clone jutsu. All throughout part 1 he had the skills of a genin. It was even clearly stated that to become a chunin you need more than brute strength. Naruto wasn't even that talented. His best fight was obviously against kiba. I think that's the only fight where he fought with true ninja skill. Not to mention his fight with kabuto, though kabuto was beating him up.

Chunin= start of part two and onwards. Naruto had barely shown any growth after the timeskip. If he was a jonin in skill by the time he and sakura did the bell test against kakashi he would not have taken so long. I know for a fact that sasuke would have gotten it wayyyy faster. Plus the reason I say chunin is because he was obviously more skilled than when he was younger. With his use of shadow clones he has becvome a more competent ninja. 
Yet with him its the same thing over and over shadow clones and rasengan, which barely ever work against opponents.not to mention his horrendously slow base speed. 
Hell even sai told naruto that he had no skill as a ninja. Plus not to mention it was implied that sai had more ninja skill than naruto. It was even implied that sai had more ninja skill than naruto. When yamato did the training excercise against sai and naruto he even commented that sai was too good for his age. You may say I'm terolling but irdgaf. But base naruto hasn't shown anything that sets him apartfrom the rest of the hidden leaf 11 in terms of skill and I'm willing to go out and say that both shikamaru and neji could beat him in a base state. You can deny it all u want but neji would have defeated naruto had he not used the 9 tails chakra.


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## blackminato (Feb 4, 2012)

Sage mode= I will completely agree that while in sage mode naruto had the skills of a jonin. In fact to me he resembled kakashi when he was fighting zabuza to me. Despite having full intel on his opponents full abilities. He showed the skill and came up with pretty good tactics.
Kurama chakra mode v1= he is no different than sage naruto skill wise the only thing that setsthem apart is that now he has really fast movement and more chakra.
Kcmv2= at this point he doesn't even resemble a ninja more like a saiyan. I really don't know what to rate him. I just feel like this manga is starting to move away from its ninja theme and hurfling into a dbz style format he has a lot of raw power and is really fast but yeah he doesn't e en look like a shinobi.

But when I see stuff like after wind training he became low kage level I think. Wth how does that make any damn sense. Not too long ago he had gotten his ass beaten like some fresh academy student by sasuke and now he's better than himm all of a sudden? No people don't think they just speak whatever comes to mind. The only thing naruto gained from that training other thjan wind style is shadow clone memories.

I could easily counter peoples arguments by saying 7yo sasuke was low kage level because he leaened fire style within a week without the aid of clones. Hell I could even go a step higher and say he became mid kage level when he learened how to manipulate lightning style chakra. It doesn't make any sense right?


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## Mister (Feb 4, 2012)

Part 1 was all *Genin*, touching on Chunin slightly. 

When Naruto came back in part 2, he was a solid *Chunin level*.

After the wind training, he was a solid *Jonin level*.

After the Senjutsu training, he was at the highest band of the *top tier* (Minato-Itachi-Jiraiya-Orochimaru types); touching slightly on the Rikudou tier utilising Kurama's power.
That's Sage Mode; his base form jumped to Kage level too (making Tobi dodge; stopping Mokuton with Odama Rasengan he can do with 1 hand and using Rasengan, arguably bigger than Sage Jiraiya's, with his base form).

After the Jinchuriki training, he reached *Rinnegan tier*. 

Rinnegan tier is a small tier, which contains: Nagato (prime and not), Rinnegan Tobi, Rinnegan Madara, EMS Sasuke, Kabuto with RS maxing out this tier.
That's below *Juubi tier* which only contains the Juubi and Juubi RS; human RS is at the bottom band of this tier.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 4, 2012)

blackminato said:


> Sage mode= I will completely agree that while in sage mode naruto had the skills of a jonin. In fact to me he resembled kakashi when he was fighting zabuza to me. Despite having full intel on his opponents full abilities. He showed the skill and came up with pretty good tactics.
> Kurama chakra mode v1= he is no different than sage naruto skill wise the only thing that setsthem apart is that now he has really fast movement and more chakra.
> Kcmv2= at this point he doesn't even resemble a ninja more like a saiyan. I really don't know what to rate him. I just feel like this manga is starting to move away from its ninja theme and hurfling into a dbz style format he has a lot of raw power and is really fast but yeah he doesn't e en look like a shinobi.



So basically SM Naruto = Jonin = Neji level


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## SaishuSoda (Feb 4, 2012)

blackminato said:


> Sage mode= I will completely agree that while in sage mode naruto had the skills of a jonin. In fact to me he resembled kakashi when he was fighting zabuza to me. Despite having full intel on his opponents full abilities. He showed the skill and came up with pretty good tactics.
> Kurama chakra mode v1= he is no different than sage naruto skill wise the only thing that setsthem apart is that now he has really fast movement and more chakra.
> Kcmv2= at this point he doesn't even resemble a ninja more like a saiyan. I really don't know what to rate him. I just feel like this manga is starting to move away from its ninja theme and hurfling into a dbz style format he has a lot of raw power and is really fast but yeah he doesn't e en look like a shinobi.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure when OP asked when Naruto became a certain rank level they meant, battle capabilty wise. With that said...

 What...?

*Sage Mode-* Only makes him jonin level? I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Naruto was debatably at special jonin/low jonin level at the beginning of the time-skip. In SM he ascended to solid kage level fighting.

*Learning Futon:Rasenshuriken-* I agree that it does not make Naruto low-kage level. What it did do imo was make him a solid Jounin level shinobi. Comparing something on the level of _Futon: Rasenshuriken_ to one of the basic katons is a really bad example.

*Naruto's Power-ups-* It should be obvious that these power-ups would contribute to his level as a fighter. If that weren't the case then might as well ignore Raikage's Raiton Armor, Uchiha's Sharingan techniques, or Tsunade's regeneration since they all wouldn't be fighting at those levels in base.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 4, 2012)

If post wind training makes him Kakashi's equal or beyond it slightly, and Kakashi has the ability to become the rokudaime hokage, then clearly Naruto is kage level in base post wind training. Later on we see his taijutsu improve after frog katas training as well as gaining access to Chou Oodama Rasengan in his base form as well as his level of tactics increasing. Naruto is kage level in base people.

Sasuke Uchiha during the chuunin exams finals was said to clearly be chuunin level by the jounin proctor, Genma. Rooftop Sasuke>Chuunin exams Sasuke. Naruto matched Rooftop Sasuke without the use of Kyuubi while Sasuke held back his Cursed Seal. So they were still solid chuunin level in their base forms. Gaara has killed chuunin meaning he was at least chuunin level during the finals even without the use of full shukaku and Naruto was winning against him. This Sasuke was even feeling inferior to this Naruto pre rasengan training. Base Naruto in part 1 was chuunin level. Factoring in KN0 and KN1, Naruto was very well low jounin level or severely pushing jounin level at the end of part 1.

With this in mind, Base Naruto in part 2 would not be the same level as his part 1 self after training with Jiraiya so all of this beginning of part 2 Base Naruto is chuunin level stuff just sounds comical. After speed and strength increases, hefty increases in intelligence, taijutsu skill, and stamina/chakra, a genjutsu defense, and most importantly his ninjutsu skills increasing (Kishimoto said in an interview Naruto can summon any frog he wants now, with the aid of 1 KB held his own in taijutsu with highly skilled taijutsu users i.e. Chiyo/Yamato, with a couple of KBs had a draw with Kakashi's tajiutsu/speed during the bell training and effectively countered sharingan prediction by putting a kunai to his back, increased the power of his rasengan with Oodama Rasengan, using skillful KB combos like against Deidara). Base Naruto coming back from part 2 was definitely jounin level.


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## DemonDurai (Feb 4, 2012)

SaishuSoda said:


> What the hell is that supposed to mean?
> 
> He did defeat Pain, what else is there to call it.
> 
> ...







SaishuSoda said:


> Instead of spamming faces, you could explain your point?
> 
> Explain how Naruto did not defeat Pain please.


 
I was under the impression that the Fight between Negato and Naruto during the Pain invasion was left unfinished. If you agree that  Naruto did defeat the 6 paths (with a bit of help from Hinata) and as you say a "win is win" so Naruto did defeat the 6 paths of Pain. However Negato committed suicide or kamikaze depending on how you view it. Negato was still able to peform Jutsu and Konan was there as his body guard. As you claim earlier a "win is a win" so you could argue the outcome if Naruto and Negato choose to continue there battle 

Very well then going by  your logic win is a win and as you put it *"This isn't the 1700's where men line up in a straight line on leveled field and wait until the other side says they're ready. In other words, they're shinobi it doesn't matter if its fair or not. A win is a win."*  then I have no choice but to concur the argument. Since Negato committed suicide its a lost to Naruto because a "win is a win" as you say. Might not be fair and all  but it is defeat nonetheless.

 You could also argue on  that logic Jiraiya defeat Kisame and Itachi. After all both Kisame and Itachi flee from Jiraiya. As you say a "win is win" and above quote from you so I see why not  the same logic cant be apply here.  Do I think Jiraiya defeat them both? No  

Dont get me wrong here if that is how you interpret then I respect your opinions  just that mine is different on the matter. Going back to my original point to clarify is that I do not  consider Negato decision to choose to die and resurrected Konoha citizen as Naruto "defeating" Negato. He still have some fight in him and yea Konan was there just Hinata was Naruto.  

 DD


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## blackminato (Feb 4, 2012)

SaishuSoda said:


> I'm pretty sure when OP asked when Naruto became a certain rank level they meant, battle capabilty wise. With that said...
> 
> What...?
> 
> ...



I have a question for you. First of all yes I did say that sage naruto was jonin level in skill and abilities. But I want to ask you when the jonin rank suddenly became so damn weak? The last time I checked, a jonin was an elite ninja in his village, not everyone makes the rank of jonin so saying jonin is weak is really ignorant of you.

Tell me why you believe that naruto was at the skill level of a jonin after the timeskip. What we saw form him is a small confrontation against sai in which said had no problem against him choji and shikamaru. Sai even told naruto that he had no talent as a ninja. I don't think if naruto was as skilled as you claim sai would have made that statement. Sai had no emotions so there was no need to make naruto mad or diss him. Again sai and naruto against yamato. When naruto made a sai clone that used the rasengan. Completely gave himself away. Yamato and everyone else knew that was narutos jutsu so sai took over and tied up naruto and caught yamato. Sai ebven commented on what was the point of the rasengan as it gave him away immediately. Answer this what kind of elite ninja makes retarded mistakes like that in a fight or a mission. Even yamato stated that sai was way more skilled than he had though.  After that naruto got his feelings hurt so badly that he started saying he would never accept sai and crap like that.


Against oro he let the 9 tails took over cuz he knew he wouldn't do crap with his own abilities. In oros lair shadow clones rasengan over and over yet oro was playing with him. If he wanted oro would have killed naruto there.

I don't even need to explain what happened against sasuke.


Fyi. Ay's lightning armor isn't a poweeup like sage mode or kcm. He manipulates HIS OWN lightning style chakra in order to increase his speed and reflexes. That isn't a powerup its ingenious.
Tsunades mitotic regeneration isn't a powerup again.
Sharingan isn't a powerup like you think it is. Just look at lee vs sasuke


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## Whirlpool (Feb 4, 2012)

blackminato said:


> I have a question for you. First of all yes I did say that sage naruto was jonin level in skill and abilities. But I want to ask you when the jonin rank suddenly became so damn weak? The last time I checked, a jonin was an elite ninja in his village, not everyone makes the rank of jonin so saying jonin is weak is really ignorant of you.
> 
> Tell me why you believe that naruto was at the skill level of a jonin after the timeskip. What we saw form him is a small confrontation against sai in which said had no problem against him choji and shikamaru. Sai even told naruto that he had no talent as a ninja. I don't think if naruto was as skilled as you claim sai would have made that statement. Sai had no emotions so there was no need to make naruto mad or diss him. Again sai and naruto against yamato. When naruto made a sai clone that used the rasengan. Completely gave himself away. Yamato and everyone else knew that was narutos jutsu so sai took over and tied up naruto and caught yamato. Sai ebven commented on what was the point of the rasengan as it gave him away immediately. Answer this what kind of elite ninja makes retarded mistakes like that in a fight or a mission. Even yamato stated that sai was way more skilled than he had though.  After that naruto got his feelings hurt so badly that he started saying he would never accept sai and crap like that.
> 
> ...





This guy is a jonin and post-timeskip pre-wind naruto could kick his ass

Kakashi. Asuma and Guy are elite jonin. All the other jonin are still fodder who were all owned by a single pain

Seriously, base naruto can create 2000 shadow clones, summon a giant frog, make a big ass rasengan and add wind to it. Base Naruto surpassed Kakashi, said so by kakashi himself. SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and your favorite character minato, stated by fukasaku himself.

Manga characters words > Yours


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## blackminato (Feb 4, 2012)

I don't know why ppul get so butthurt when they hear the word jonin, jonin are elite ninja. 
Elite are the very best.
Kage are the village leaders so no matter how you look at it naruto nor itachi or even kakashi are kage level.
What's so bad about sage naruto being in the same tier as someone like neji. You could be in the same tier and be on completely different levels. For example in the databook naruto and teneten have the same speed stat of 3.5 does that mean they move at exactly tehe same speed? No it doesn't.
Neji is a very skilled shinobi, arguably the most talented along with sasukein their class. You could call me a troller but I wanna meet the person who says naruto would have beaten neji without the aid of the fox.
Just saiyan just cuz two people are on the same tier it doesn't make them exactly the same . They could be worlds apart in skill level and yet they both would be considered elite


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 4, 2012)

Its not about rank its about level of ability. That means current Naruto is jounin level too. Amazing logic. I can tell you'll have a bright future here.


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## Reddan (Feb 4, 2012)

Rosencrantz said:


> If post wind training makes him Kakashi's equal or beyond it slightly, and Kakashi has the ability to become the rokudaime hokage, then clearly Naruto is kage level in base post wind training. Later on we see his taijutsu improve after frog katas training as well as gaining access to Chou Oodama Rasengan in his base form as well as his level of tactics increasing. Naruto is kage level in base people.
> 
> Sasuke Uchiha during the chuunin exams finals was said to clearly be chuunin level by the jounin proctor, Genma. Rooftop Sasuke>Chuunin exams Sasuke. Naruto matched Rooftop Sasuke without the use of Kyuubi while Sasuke held back his Cursed Seal. So they were still solid chuunin level in their base forms. Gaara has killed chuunin meaning he was at least chuunin level during the finals even without the use of full shukaku and Naruto was winning against him. This Sasuke was even feeling inferior to this Naruto pre rasengan training. Base Naruto in part 1 was chuunin level. Factoring in KN0 and KN1, Naruto was very well low jounin level or severely pushing jounin level at the end of part 1.
> 
> With this in mind, Base Naruto in part 2 would not be the same level as his part 1 self after training with Jiraiya so all of this beginning of part 2 Base Naruto is chuunin level stuff just sounds comical. After speed and strength increases, hefty increases in intelligence, taijutsu skill, and stamina/chakra, a genjutsu defense, and most importantly his ninjutsu skills increasing (Kishimoto said in an interview Naruto can summon any frog he wants now, with the aid of 1 KB held his own in taijutsu with highly skilled taijutsu users i.e. Chiyo/Yamato, with a couple of KBs had a draw with Kakashi's tajiutsu/speed during the bell training and effectively countered sharingan prediction by putting a kunai to his back, increased the power of his rasengan with Oodama Rasengan, using skillful KB combos like against Deidara). Base Naruto coming back from part 2 was definitely jounin level.



Good post. I will back it up further with quotes.

Base Naruto was equal to base Sasuke in the Chunin exams. I think we will all agree with this right.

This is what Genma said to Sasuke.

*You're already at Chunin Level. If you consider yourself a Konoha Shinobi do something useful...*

So at the very least base Naruto at the Chunin exams was Chunin level.


Now lets look at the very latest he was jounin level.

Part 2 Neji was a jounin. So we can deduce that if his stronger than Neji then he is around jounin level. Sai had assassinated several jounin. This is what Danzo, who knows a lot about the ninja world had to say.

*Not only are you and Uzumaki Naruto close in age... You're both stronger than your peers.*

There you have it. Part 2 Naruto alongside Sai is the strongest person his age in the village. Stronger than the jounin Neji.

Now Kakashi is kage level. So again if Naruto is around his level, then he is as strong as a kage. Kakashi knows how strong Naruto is and surely knows his own ability.

Kakashi has this to say.

*You're strong Naruto. You may even surpass me.*

Again so at this point he is kage level.


Lastly we know SM Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya. Two ninjas, who would be high kage level.

So even the biggest Naruto detractor has to accept this at the very least.

Chunin Exams=Chunin Level
Time Skip=Jounin Level
POST FRS= Kage Level
SM Naruto=High Kage Level.


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## blackminato (Feb 4, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> This guy is a jonin and post-timeskip pre-wind naruto could kick his ass
> 
> Kakashi. Asuma and Guy are elite jonin. All the other jonin are still fodder who were all owned by a single pain



The difference between kakashi and the "fodder" you claim ebisu to be is that kakashi is a full jonin.
Ebisu is a special jonin. Special jonin are usually particularly skilled in a certain area. I'm pretty sure that ebisus skill is in training shinobi.

Pre wind naruto could kick his ass? I'm not denying he could win, but I wanna know why u say kick his ass. Who's ass has pre wind naruto kicked.
If he went fox mode he'd rape him definetely. But in his base state who's ass has he whooped really. Just answer that. In every fight up till that point he was getting his ass kicked until he found an opening. So to say he would kick his ass is an overexaggeration


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## Whirlpool (Feb 4, 2012)

blackminato said:


> The difference between kakashi and the "fodder" you claim ebisu to be is that kakashi is a full jonin.
> Ebisu is a special jonin. Special jonin are usually particularly skilled in a certain area. I'm pretty sure that ebisus skill is in training shinobi.
> 
> *Pre wind naruto could kick his ass? I'm not denying he could win, but I wanna know why u say kick his ass. Who's ass has pre wind naruto kicked.
> If he went fox mode he'd rape him definetely. But in his base state who's ass has he whooped really. Just answer that. In every fight up till that point he was getting his ass kicked until he found an opening. So to say he would kick his ass is an overexaggeration*



Who's ass has pre-wind naruto kicked?

Gaara 

Although i understand about the special jonin part. But saying SM Naruto is jonin level is like saying SM Naruto is on par with kankuro, temari and neji. Wo are full jonins. Jiraiya has been stated to been kage level and SM Naruto surpassed him, showing it by fukasakus words and by beating five pain bodies before being incapacitated, while jiraiya could only beat 3 before dying.

If current Base Naruto fought kakuzu with the same mindset and predicament, he'd win easily. Remember when his rasenshuriken ran out just before it hit kakuzu? Since it doesn't run out anymore, kakuzu would be beaten. And Kakuzu is definantly a jonin/kage level ninja, showing it by fighting on par and overpowering kakashi.


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## blackminato (Feb 4, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> Who's ass has pre-wind naruto kicked?
> 
> Gaara
> 
> ...



The only reason naruto defeated pain was because he already had full intel on his abilities. How many times has this been stated that knowledge is power. Not to mention he was already in sage mode to begin with,

Now put naruto in jiraiyas situation. He sees one pain and thinks that's it and starts fighting. Then another one pops up out of nowhere then another 1 comes. You don't know what kind of abiloities they have and for all you know they could all perform any ninjutsu and genjutsu.
Jiraiya went into sage mode yet. Was still being baffled by their abilities. You think how could he dodge without looking at me? Not until pa said thjey have linked vision.

You finally defeat 3 of them. Now you believe that you have one. Then all of a sudden someone knocks the shot outta u and blows ur arm off and the next thing u know 6 pains are looking at u including the u killed. Tell me how naruto would defeat pain. Pain is one of the most impossible to beat with that strategy. Yet naruto had a slug on his shoulder that knew all of their abilities including the one that could revive others.

Man gtfo naruto won because he knew his abilities. If he was in kakashis or jirayas situations he would have been killed and the mangas name would be changed to sasuke


In fact its ppul like u who say the only reason sasuke beat bee was bcuz of getting help from taka. How the hell is that different from naruto getting fuyll intel from katsuya? Its not, so stop making excuses.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 4, 2012)

blackminato said:


> The only reason naruto defeated pain was because he already had full intel on his abilities. How many times has this been stated that knowledge is power. Not to mention he was already in sage mode to begin with,
> 
> Now put naruto in jiraiyas situation. He sees one pain and thinks that's it and starts fighting. Then another one pops up out of nowhere then another 1 comes. You don't know what kind of abiloities they have and for all you know they could all perform any ninjutsu and genjutsu.
> Jiraiya went into sage mode yet. Was still being baffled by their abilities. You think how could he dodge without looking at me? Not until pa said thjey have linked vision.
> ...


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## blackminato (Feb 4, 2012)

Lol dude its funny I really don't care yet you seem to be the person that can't counter my arguments. Smh gtfo bro


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## BrokenBonds (Feb 4, 2012)

*Genin:* after learning the Kage Bunshin _(may already be at, or close to, Chunin level)._

*Chunin:* after being taught by Jiraiya during the Chunin Exam Arc.

*Jounin: *after being taught by Kakashi Hatake during the Immortals Arc.

*Low Kage: *le skip

*Mid Kage:* after learning Sage Mode.

*High Kage:* after learning Rikudou Mode.

*Top Tier:* after befriending the Kyuubi.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 4, 2012)

blackminato said:


> Lol dude its funny I really don't care yet you seem to be the person that can't counter my arguments. Smh gtfo bro



To be honest...

neither do I 

I know Naruto didn't defeat pain alone, he had info and help from hinata. But here's the thing, he still defeated him. with help or no help.

And what has sasuke got to do with this?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 4, 2012)

BrokenBonds said:


> *Genin:* after learning the Kage Bunshin _(may already be at, or close to, Chunin level)._
> 
> *Chunin:* after being taught by Jiraiya during the Chunin Exam Arc.
> 
> ...


If a Kage Bushin in Sage Mode can beat a high-level Kage, how is it 'Mid Kage'? If Naruto could overpower Kurama twice in Sage Mode, how is SM Naruto Mid Kage?


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## Deshi Basara (Feb 4, 2012)

blackminato said:


> The only reason naruto defeated pain was because he already had full intel on his abilities. How many times has this been stated that knowledge is power. Not to mention he was already in sage mode to begin with,



*The only abilities Naruto had intel on were Hell, Preta and Deva's.Oh and shared vision.Get your facts straight.


And Naruto didn't win just thanks to knowedge.Having knowledge didn't magically give him the SM durability, strength and speed of SM.Neither did it give him the perfect counters to Preta path-Frog Katas and turning him into a frog.




			Now put naruto in jiraiyas situation. He sees one pain and thinks that's it and starts fighting. Then another one pops up out of nowhere then another 1 comes. You don't know what kind of abiloities they have and for all you know they could all perform any ninjutsu and genjutsu.
 Jiraiya went into sage mode yet. Was still being baffled by their abilities. You think how could he dodge without looking at me? Not until pa said thjey have linked vision.

 You finally defeat 3 of them. Now you believe that you have one. Then all of a sudden someone knocks the shot outta u and blows ur arm off and the next thing u know 6 pains are looking at u including the u killed. Tell me how naruto would defeat pain. Pain is one of the most impossible to beat with that strategy. Yet naruto had a slug on his shoulder that knew all of their abilities including the one that could revive others.
		
Click to expand...


Naruto can sense danger "faster and greater" in SM.Enough to help him dodge incredibly fast raikages.I don't see him falling for a sneak attack.




			Man gtfo naruto won because he knew his abilities. If he was in kakashis or jirayas situations
		
Click to expand...



What Kakashi situation?You gtfo.Kakashi faced 2 paths with Nagato's attention divided to 4 other places at the same time (the other 4 paths were fighting in different places in Konoha during this time).One of those paths was Asura which Naruto CRUSHED right in front of 5 other paths, without knowing his abilities.Unlike Kakashi who needed the fat duo to do it for him.*


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## Mdri (Feb 4, 2012)

Octavian said:


> post time skip naruto: special jonin (slightly below regular jonin)
> post wind training naruto: high jounin
> SM naruto: mid-high kage
> RM v1 naruto: above kage
> RM v2 naruto: demi-god



Exactly what I was going to post


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 4, 2012)

Alright, let's see.

At the start of part 2, I'd say he was definitely Chuunin level, without a doubt. He then became Jonin level after his wind element rasenshuriken training.

He absolutely became high kage level when he fought Pain. This was a Naruto who had essentially surpassed Jiraiya, and was literally, in my view, breathing on the doorstep of the Fourth Hokage. I refuse to say that he surpassed Minato at that point in time, because I honestly don't believe he did, but I do believe he was most certainly getting up there in a number of ways. To surpass a shinobi like the Fourth Hokage, I think you do it with much more than just the power and abilities Naruto showcased in the fight against the Six Paths of Pain. Then again, I'm also still very much of the belief that there are techniques in Naruto's arsenal that he has not shown us, so maybe he truly was superior to Minato as of the fight against Pain, and Fukasaku certainly implied as much, that Naruto had surpassed both Jiraiya and Minato.

For example, nobody thought Naruto could perform the summoning mayhem technique, as he did against White Zetsu till he showed it to us. Naruto, I'm certain, has other techniques that he has yet to show us, so perhaps we don't really have a true gauge of just how skilled Naruto actually is, even with all the incredible things he has already shown us. But it is my honest view that there's no way you can defeat the Six Paths of Pain, and then somehow not be considered high kage level. No way. Regardless of what the circumstances of that battle were.

An opponent who wasn't at an impressive kage level with their abilities, could not win against the Six Paths of Pain.


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## Hokage (Feb 4, 2012)

Naruto's development didn't followed the normal paths due to his Kyuubi chakra. However if Im forced to give the timings

Chunin: Summoning gamabunta. Add that to shadow clone spams and you've chunin level

Low level jounin: Just after the time skip. Naruto and Suckura were able to keep Kakashi at bay

High level jounin: Raizershuriken time

Sannin level: Sage chakra

As said the kyuubi kind of fecks things up.For example Naruto would have not been able to beat Pain without the Kyuubi so at that time, Naruto was around or a bit less then Jiraiya.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 4, 2012)

Kakashi was considered Kage-level even at the very start of Part II. Naruto surpassed him with the Futon training. So why doesn't Naruto have the Low Kage level at that point of time?


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## Nikushimi (Feb 4, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If a Kage Bushin in Sage Mode can beat a high-level Kage, how is it 'Mid Kage'?



If you're talking about Sandaime Raikage, Datclone would never have won without:

1. Luckily figuring out how Sandaime got that scar.

and

2. Sandaime conveniently using the one thing that gave him that scar.

If Sandaime had just stuck with two or three fingers, or if Naruto had never been able to communicate with Hachibi, he would have won.



> If Naruto could overpower Kurama twice in Sage Mode, how is SM Naruto Mid Kage?



A lot of Kage-level characters can knock Kyuubi around. It's not like Sennin Naruto ever actually caused it significant injury.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 4, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> If you're talking about Sandaime Raikage, Datclone would never have won without:
> 
> 1. Luckily figuring out how Sandaime got that scar.
> 
> ...


I'd say Naruto would have been able to figure out the weakness even without talking with Gyuki. Consider that Gyuki didn't even know how Sandaime got damaged, and Naruto figured it out on his own, that speaks volumes don't you think?




> A lot of Kage-level characters can knock Kyuubi around. It's not like Sennin Naruto ever actually caused it significant injury.


...really? Name them. Sage Mode Naruto actually got praised by Kurama for his strength.


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## WT (Feb 4, 2012)

Naruto is extremely unpredictable as mentioned by the author several times. As a result, his powers fluctuate.

*In Green: Established Power, cannot get Weaker in future.*

*In Red: Fluctuated Power born from Anger/Will, Can get weaker in future.*


*Start of the series: Genin*
*Kyuubi released during Haku: Low Jonin Lvl 1*
*Neji Fight: Mid Chunnin*
*Gaara Fight: Low Jonin Lvl 2*
*Kabuto Rasengan: Low Jonin Lvl  2*
*Sasuke Fight V.O.T.E: Medium Jonin*

----------------

*Start of Shippuden: High Chuunin*
*Deidara Fight: Medium Jonin Lvl 2*
*Post Wind Training: Medium Jonin*
*Kakuzu Fight: High Jonin Level 2*

-----------------

*Post Sennin Modo Training: Low Kage Lvl 2*
*Pein Fight at the start: Medium Kage Level 2 *
*Fighting Yahiko Pein: High Kage Lvl 1*
*Post Pein Fight: Medium Kage Lvl 2*
*Kyuubi Fight: High Kage Lvl 2*
*Rikudo Mode: High Kage Lvl 1*
*Itachi/Nagato Fight: High Kage Lvl 2*
*War Arc: Super Kage Lvl 1*
*Kurama Arc: Super Kage Lvl 2*


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## principito (Feb 4, 2012)

Well, to be completely honest 90% of the posts here are retarded....

MID KAGE lvl doesnt exist... LOW KAGE? Serously? grow up people.... those terms are created by fanboys to fit characters into categories they dont belong

That being said its pretty simple

Naruto is pretty hard to rank since since the first chapters he knew jutsus way out of his leage like his Kage bunshin.... So he was a genin using jounin jutsus.... yet he still sucked at the rest. Then he's summoning a fucking frog agains an opponent that shortly after was made kage yet he couldnt mold chakra properly. Skilled jonins summon stuff but HE CANT MOLD CHAKRA

So lets say all part 1 he's a genin
Beggining of part 2 he's a chunin
right around Kakuzu's fight he's a jounin
right around Pain's fight he's kage material

Anything afterthat doesnt have a rank... in dragon ball they give power-points and i'd say he has about 300,000


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 4, 2012)

White Tiger said:


> Naruto is extremely unpredictable as mentioned by the author several times. As a result, his powers fluctuate.
> 
> *In Green: Established Power, cannot get Weaker in future.*
> 
> ...



No he was jounin without including kyuuubi at start of part 2 and since he was kakashi level after wind training he was low kage level then. Most of your rankings are wrong though so nevermind lol.


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## αce (Feb 4, 2012)

*Chuunin* - During the Gaara arc. He was definitely there by the end of Part 1.
*Jounin* - By the time the wind training arc was over. The fight with Kakuzu
*Kage* - The moment he mastered Sage Mode


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## Doge (Feb 4, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



MY  JPG BRINGS ALL THE BOYS TO THE YARD, AND THEY'RE LIKE, IT'S BETTER THAN YOURS, DAMN RIGHT, IT'S NEVER A BORE!  






Just my 2 cents.


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## Doge (Feb 4, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> *Chuunin* - During the Gaara arc. He was definitely there by the end of Part 1.
> *Jounin* - By the time the wind training arc was over. The fight with Kakuzu
> *Kage* - The moment he mastered Sage Mode



Ten bucks says he'd lead Konoha into the ground.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 4, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kakashi was considered Kage-level even at the very start of Part II. Naruto surpassed him with the Futon training. So why doesn't Naruto have the Low Kage level at that point of time?



He had simply improved significantly, to the point that he *may* have surpassed Kakashi or was at least on even footing with Kakashi, but we really couldn't be entirely sure.

It doesn't just take surpassing someone in terms of power to be considered as ready to be Hokage. Naruto was by no means as good of a leader then as Kakashi was. Just look at what essentially made Shikamaru a Chuunin. He didn't win his fight, nor did he necessarily appear stronger than Temari.

He was, however, mature and controlled enough to know that he had to make the right decision, and not continue to fight what had become a seemingly un-winnable fight. You can't come back and say, "Hey, we accomplished the mission, but everybody else died." Heck, by that same token, you could say that, as much power as Naruto might have had, he may not have been nearly a good enough leader at the time. Then I feel, on some level, Naruto just wasn't entirely mentally prepared to be Hokage yet until after he had encountered Sasuke after his fight against Danzou. You started to get the sense that Naruto was finally coming around to being able to handle complex situations involving someone he considered to be his best friend, or that he considered to be his brother.

Confronting Nagato the way he did was certainly apart of that process, and in many ways you could say that Naruto's path to Hokage will be the toughest and most unique yet of any previous Hokage, because he's going to be an entirely different sort of shinobi from anything we've ever witnessed before.


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## Gunners (Feb 4, 2012)

Chounin- When he beat the shit out of Mizuki. 
Jounin- When he fought Sasuke at the VOE. 
Kage- Start of part two.
Hokage- When he learned Sage mode.


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## Enclave (Feb 4, 2012)

It's undeniable that in the Chuunin exams Naruto was clearly well beyond what people would consider "Chuunin level".  By the time he and Sasuke fought at VOTE both were likely on the low scale for Jounin.

After the time skip Naruto was stronger than probably most Jounin.  Jiraiya packed him full of power.  He was capable of fighting against Akatsuki level threats, something most Jounin couldn't do.

After the skip Naruto was steadily climbing in strenth, however once his wind training was complete he was undoubtedly "Kage level".  How do we know this?  Kakashi was considered potential kage material and Naruto had surpassed him.  Since then Naruto has just continued to get more and more ridiculously powerful.


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## Missing_Nin (Feb 4, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> He had simply improved significantly, to the point that he *may* have surpassed Kakashi or was at least on even footing with Kakashi, but we really couldn't be entirely sure.
> 
> It doesn't just take surpassing someone in terms of power to be considered as ready to be Hokage. Naruto was by no means as good of a leader then as Kakashi was. Just look at what essentially made Shikamaru a Chuunin. He didn't win his fight, nor did he necessarily appear stronger than Temari.
> 
> He was, however, mature and controlled enough to know that he had to make the right decision, and not continue to fight what had become a seemingly un-winnable fight. You can't come back and say, "Hey, we accomplished the mission, but everybody else died." Heck, by that same token, you could say that, as much power as Naruto might have had, he may not have been nearly a good enough leader at the time. Then I feel, on some level, Naruto just wasn't entirely mentally prepared to be Hokage yet until after he had encountered Sasuke after his fight against Danzou. You started to get the sense that Naruto was finally coming around to being able to handle complex situations involving someone he considered to be his best friend, or that he considered to be his brother.



obviously the topic is just talking about fighting ability.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 4, 2012)

Hmm, in terms of you power you may be correct, Enclave, but these ranks are about so much more than just power and ability. It's also about being a skilled and experienced leader.

Now, I would certainly call Naruto a lot of complimentary things, but a leader, and so soon at that? I don't know. He most certainly was stronger than most Jounin, and likely so was Sakura and Rock Lee, but then that's just further evidence that there's simply much more to it than being really strong.



Missing_Nin said:


> obviously the topic is just talking about fighting ability.




Yea, I'm going to have to agree with you. It really is just about fighting ability. In that sense then, yes, Naruto was likely in strong Jounin territory the very moment he got done training under Jiraiya. I mean, no way can a lot of the things Naruto knows now, like the summoning mayhem technique, be things that he just started learning under Fukasaku when he was learning Sage Mode. He had to have learned quite a bit under Jiraiya's tutelage. And then of course Naruto could use Kyuubi Chakra Mode up to 3 tails while maintaining full control, which is just amazing. Not just any Jounin could pull what he did on that bridge against Orochimaru and Kabuto prior to going 4 tails.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 4, 2012)

Doesn't matter, naruto is fodder still compared to hunter x hunter characters.


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## lazer (Feb 4, 2012)

_Chūnin have reached a level of maturity and ability that primarily consists of leadership skills and tactical prowess._


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## The Prodigy (Feb 4, 2012)

*Academy* - post learning how to create shadow clones.

*Genin* - post learning how to walk on trees, battle w/ Zabuza.

*Chunin* - After mastering rasengan.

*Special Jounin* - Post time-skip training with Jiriaya.

*Jounin* - Post shape & nature transformation training. 

*kage 1st degree* - post learning Sage mode. 

*Kage 2nd degree* - post taking control of Kyuubi's chakra.

*Mastery of 1st & 2nd degree Kage levels* - post completely removing the seal, imperfect bijuu mode.


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## joshhookway (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't think Naruto became a jounin that early. He was no match against gai and kakashi until sage mode. He would be no match for other jounins like Deidara, Kisame, Darui, etc


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## Coldhands (Feb 5, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> I don't think Naruto became a jounin that early. He was no match against gai and kakashi until sage mode. He would be no match for other jounins like Deidara, Kisame, Darui, etc



Kakashi admitted that Naruto was on par with him or even stronger than him after his Futon training:
3rd Rikudou

After all Naruto did defeat Kakuzu, fair and square. He only needed to be saved once because FRS wasn't complete yet and it dispersed. If it hadn't dispersed he would have oneshotted Kakuzu right there. After that he formulated a great strategy to take out Kakuzu and did so very easily.


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## Ummon (Feb 5, 2012)

People saying Naruto was at jonin level right at the timeskip are not thinking clearly.

Kakashi himself told Naruto in Chapter 316 (start of wind chakra training): "A minimum of 2 chakra elements is required in order to become a jonin."

Afterwards, Kakashi tells Naruto he is on at least equal level to himself- though I'm guessing he meant in terms of power. Jonins apply higher levels of skills in tactics and intelligence in addition to their power. Naruto has at least way more power than what he knows to do with it.

He just needs to fine-tune his tactics and work on his intelligence.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 5, 2012)

Ummon said:


> People saying Naruto was at jonin level right at the timeskip are not thinking clearly.
> 
> *Kakashi himself told Naruto in Chapter 316 (start of wind chakra training): "A minimum of 2 chakra elements is required in order to become a jonin."*
> 
> ...



He didn't say that, he said most jonin have two elements


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## Whirlpool (Feb 5, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> I don't think Naruto became a jounin that early. He was no match against gai and kakashi until sage mode. He would be no match for other jounins like Deidara, Kisame, Darui, etc



Temari and Kankuro are jonin

Pre-wind Naruto could most likely defeat them


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## SaishuSoda (Feb 5, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> I don't think Naruto became a jounin that early. He was no match against gai and kakashi until sage mode. He would be no match for other jounins like Deidara, Kisame, Darui, etc



Those people you named are elite jounin. They shouldn't be used as measuring tools to gauge whether someone is jounin level or not. Since they are far from average. 

Neji, Kankuro, and Temari were low jounin level at beginning of timeskip. That would be a much better group of people to gauge if someone is jounin level battle capability wise.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Feb 5, 2012)

_*Genin - *Beginning of the series _
_*Chuunin - *After Jiraiya training in the Chuunin Exams _
_*Jounin (weaker Jounins)-* Beginning of part II
*Elite Jounin (Kakashi/Gai) - *Post Fuuton training 
*Low Kage - *Skipped although Kakashi/Gai could be considered this level as well and in that case Naruto could have been post-Fuuton training
*Mid Kage - *Post Senjutsu Training 
*High Kage -* Post KCM Naruto
*Beyond Kages -* Post Bijuu Mode Naruto
_


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## Octavian (Feb 5, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> I don't think Naruto became a jounin that early. He was no match against gai and kakashi until sage mode. He would be no match for other jounins like Deidara, Kisame, Darui, etc



gai and kakashi are only jounin in rank. both are mid kage level ninjas, given their feats in the recent chapters.

deidara and kisame are powerful S-class ninjas capable of fighting evenly against all but the strongest kages.

the average jounin would be neji, temari, kankuro, asuma, kurenai etc.


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## Time Expired (Feb 5, 2012)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> _*Genin - *Beginning of the series _
> _*Chuunin - *After Jiraiya training in the Chuunin Exams _
> _*Jounin (weaker Jounins)-* Beginning of part II
> *Elite Jounin (Kakashi/Gai) - *Post Fuuton training
> ...



This. I wonder if he's done...


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## 3rdgenkage (Feb 6, 2012)

Genin: before Naruto fought Mizuki

Chuunin: after he fought Mizuki lmao at people saying he became Chuunin after learning the Rasengan lol what other Chuunin has a Rasengan???? Shikamaru is the only Chuunin that isn't garbage.

Naruto becomes low Jonin when fighting the sound 5

Naruto becomes high Jonin when coming back from the timeskip. You guys forget Naruto may have looked weak but the level of his opponents jumped up to a WHOLE OTHER LEVEL!!!!!!!! He wasn't fighting Neji, or the sound 5. He was taking on Kage level ninja's like Itachi and Deidara and fairing pretty well. 

Once Naruto beat Kakuzu he became Kage Level. Kakuzu mopped the floor with Kakashi, Choji, and Ino. He also has no problem taking on tailed beasts. For Naruto to beat him as fast as he did puts him Kage level. 

Sage Mode is stronger then every Kage except maybe Onoki I don't think the others could beat Sage Mode lol at people saying he is Jonin level


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## Yuna (Feb 6, 2012)

Gunners said:


> Chounin- When he beat the shit out of Mizuki.


No.



Gunners said:


> Jounin- When he fought Sasuke at the VOE.


Possible, but probably not.



Gunners said:


> Kage- Start of part two.


No.



Gunners said:


> Hokage- When he learned Sage mode.


Yes.


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## Danzio (Feb 6, 2012)

Chunnin: During the chunnin exams
Jonin: After the timeskip
Low-kage:After learning rasenshuriken
Mid-kage: Sage mode Naruto
High-kage:Kyuubi mode Naruto
Shogun: Combining the two super modes.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Feb 6, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> I don't think Naruto became a jounin that early. He was no match against gai and kakashi until sage mode. He would be no match for other jounins like Deidara, Kisame, Darui, etc



I don't think you understand  the Jounin rank the ones you mentioned are the best of the best if you compare Naruto to the more regular Jounin ninja like Neji, Temari and Kankuro Naruto was clearly above them in skill and power fresh from the time skip.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 6, 2012)

Genin - Post Mizuki

Chuunin - Post Gamabunta

Special Jonin - Sasuke retrieval

Jonin - Post timeskip

Low-kage - Post-wind

High-kage - SM

Beyond-kage - RM

Demi-God - Currently


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## Dr. Strangelove (Feb 6, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> Genin - Post Mizuki
> 
> Chuunin - Post Gamabunta
> 
> ...



I disagree with a few of these

Chunin didn''t really happen until the sasuke retrieval arc, he had pleanty of power before but he was too one-dimensional to be a chunin.

jonin - I feel like this happened when he was learning to use the FRS. All the jonin we see are insanely powerful and to think naruto was at kakashi, Gai, or even Asuma level before learning the FRS doesn't seem right.

The kage level thing...based on the current living kages, Naruto really didn't reach that point until after he learned RM. I get why sage mode made him seem like he was kage level but since then we've seen that all of the kage would've been capable of defeating pein, except for tsunade. This isn't underselling pein, it's just that the kage have been shown to be truly incredible lately.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 6, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I disagree with a few of these
> 
> Chunin didn''t really happen until the sasuke retrieval arc, he had pleanty of power before but he was too one-dimensional to be a chunin.


How was he 'one-dimensional'? Naruto throughout the latter part of Part I showed Chunin level abilities and strategies.


> jonin - I feel like this happened when he was learning to use the FRS. All the jonin we see are insanely powerful and to think naruto was at kakashi, Gai, or even Asuma level before learning the FRS doesn't seem right.


...Kakashi said _Naruto surpassed him_ after learning the Futon: Rasenshuriken. Beforehand, Naruto was giving Kakashi a _very_ good fight during the Bell Test, and acknowledged Naruto as backup. He was jonin level upon returning.


> The kage level thing...based on the current living kages, Naruto really didn't reach that point until after he learned RM. I get why sage mode made him seem like he was kage level but since then we've seen that all of the kage would've been capable of defeating pein, except for tsunade. This isn't underselling pein, it's just that the kage have been shown to be truly incredible lately.


...all the Kage are capable of defeating Pain? Do you seriously believe that? Six on one, very durable, very broken abilities...you HONESTLY believe any of the Kage one on one would be able to defeat him? Sage Mode Naruto was capable of beating Sandaime Raikage, yet he isn't 'Kage-level'? Sage Mode Naruto was capable of defeating Kurama, yet he isn't Kage Level?

You're underselling both Naruto and Pain.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 6, 2012)

False. Sasuke was chuunin level during chuunin finals. As was Gaara. Naruto outshined Sasuke during his fight with Gaara and actually ended up beating Gaara so he was chuunin level before Sasuke Retrieval Arc.

Naruto was jounin level at start of time skip even in base. He was called clever by Kakashi and managed to put a kunai to the back of Hatake Kakashi, a sharingan user with an extremely high level of taijutsu and speed at the very beginning of part 2. You know the man that was about to become Rokudaime Hokage. Comparing his abilities to other jounin like Temari, Kankurou, and Neji, one can realize he was definitely jounin level in base and even beyond it when kyuubi tails are concerned.

No current kages could have done what Naruto did against Pain except maybe Oonoki. But that is a stretch. Naruto was kage level after wind training. Of course after senjutsu training he was even beyond that.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 6, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I disagree with a few of these
> 
> Chunin didn''t really happen until the sasuke retrieval arc, he had pleanty of power before but he was too one-dimensional to be a chunin.
> 
> ...



Neji, Temari, Kankuro and Shikamaru are jonin-level and Post-timeskip Naruto could beat them.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Feb 6, 2012)

when he had SM he was mid/high kage level.

RM and RMV2 took him to near god/god level.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Feb 6, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> jonin - I feel like this happened when he was learning to use the FRS. All the jonin we see are insanely powerful and to think naruto was at kakashi, Gai, or even Asuma level before learning the FRS doesn't seem right.


Not really they are considered the best and Asuma I feel would of been given a hard time by Post skip Naruto also look at Neji it was quite clear Naruto came back from the time skip more skilled than him and he is a Jonin at that point so post skip Naruto by definition was Jonin level




> The kage level thing...based on the current living kages, Naruto really didn't reach that point until after he learned RM. I get why sage mode made him seem like he was kage level but since then we've seen that all of the kage would've been capable of defeating pein, except for tsunade. This isn't underselling pein, it's just that the kage have been shown to be truly incredible lately.



I disagree SM Naruto would tear the Kage's to shreds I can't see a single Kage beating him and I think the weaker Kage's e.g Gaara I can't see beating Naruto in base form after the SM training


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## Missing_Nin (Feb 6, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I disagree with a few of these
> 
> Chunin didn''t really happen until the sasuke retrieval arc, he had pleanty of power before but he was too one-dimensional to be a chunin.
> 
> ...



kakashi and gai are the top of the top jounins.  Kakashi was nominated by the council/shika's pop to be hokage.. He'll stomp temari, neji, etc.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 6, 2012)

Nagato said SM Naruto was the strongest opponent he has ever fought, and Nagato is a srs badass


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## tanman (Feb 6, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> I don't think Naruto became a jounin that early. He was no match against gai and kakashi until sage mode. He would be no match for other jounins like Deidara, Kisame, Darui, etc



None of the people you listed are normal jonnin. They are all either S-rank missing-nins or shinobi that were chosen to command the Shinobi Alliance. They are all the best of the best.


Think more along the lines of Asuma. And even Asuma was a prodigy for a jonin. Think about that.


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## 3rdgenkage (Feb 6, 2012)

Post time skip Naruto would own Asuma. I hate to say it because Asuman is underated and I usually stick up for him but Naruto Rasengan is a much more dangerous weapon then Asuma's wind knives. Yeah Asuma has fire Jutsu but we. have seen Naruto go up against Sasuke's and Kakashi's fire jutsu with no problem. So I don't see any way Asuma can beat Naruto. Naruto is tricky, trains harder, and has better jutsu's I doubt Asuma could come close to Naruto after the skip.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Feb 6, 2012)

People seem to have become quite upset over my opinion regardin when naruto reached what levels. So I will briefly defend my positions in greater detail.

Chunin - during the chunin exam we are explicitly told that being a chunin is about more than fighting prowess, there is also the mental side of it as well. I didn't say Naruto wasn't as strong as a chunin I said he wasn't chunin level until the sasuke retrieval arc, you have to consider all the elements that go into making a ninja chunin. Furthermore, if Naruto was chunin-level before the sasuke retrieval arc why wasn't he made a chunin before he left with jiraiya to train?

Jonin - Upon his return Naruto is clearly much improved and a very strong fighter, however it wasn't until he learned FRS that he displayed the ability to defeat someone of jonin level. 

Kage - Naruto was still weaker than just about any of the kage following his victory over pein. 


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...all the Kage are capable of defeating Pain? Do you seriously believe that? Six on one, very durable, very broken abilities...you HONESTLY believe any of the Kage one on one would be able to defeat him? Sage Mode Naruto was capable of beating Sandaime Raikage, yet he isn't 'Kage-level'? Sage Mode Naruto was capable of defeating Kurama, yet he isn't Kage Level?



Knowing what naruto knew I absolutely believe that any of the kage, except tsunade, would defeat Pein in combat. 
A: Would speedblitz the 6 paths and wipe them out before they could be revived. It would be difficult for them to coordinate their attacks against someone so fast.

Mei: With he two kekei genkai and the hidden mist technique she could have rendered the rinnegan useless in terms of the shared field of vision. The boil release used within the hidden mist could kill all of the paths simultaneously before they could defend themselves.

Gaara - Uses his sand to obscure the rinnegans vision and isolate each body, add in sand coffin and sand burial to crush the opponents and he's good to go. I know the shinra tensei would blow the sand away but gaara's sand is easily fast enough to make use of the recharge time. The only reason gaara lost to deidra is because he was attempting to protect the village as well, without that distraction Gaara is still one of the top 10 shinobi we've seen.


Onoki - This one I'm a little less certain about, however the dust release would certainly provide a problem for the 6 paths, along with rock clones, and his ability to make objects lighter and heavier I am certain that Onoki had the skills necessary to defeat pein.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 6, 2012)

Sasuke Uchiha was said to be chuunin level. He did not advance either. So that argument has no bearing. Naruto was chuunin level during the finals. He outshined Sasuke who was chuunin level and was winning against Gaara even before Kyuubi was used.

Neji, Temari, Kankurou, Asuma, and Kurenai are all jounin. Guess pre wind training base Naruto had no chance against them right? Post wind training he was low kage level. He was on Kakashi's level by Kakashi's own admission who was about to become Rokudaime Hokage. 

SM Naruto would without a doubt defeat Mei and Tsunade (hell he could beat them at the same time), could defeat Gaara, and would likely beat Oonoki and A (the only two that could really push him). Naruto is definitely stronger than 3/5 of the kages in SM and on the same level as the other two.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Feb 6, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> People seem to have become quite upset over my opinion regardin when naruto reached what levels. So I will briefly defend my positions in greater detail.
> 
> Chunin - during the chunin exam we are explicitly told that being a chunin is about more than fighting prowess, there is also the mental side of it as well. I didn't say Naruto wasn't as strong as a chunin I said he wasn't chunin level until the sasuke retrieval arc, you have to consider all the elements that go into making a ninja chunin. Furthermore, if Naruto was chunin-level before the sasuke retrieval arc why wasn't he made a chunin before he left with jiraiya to train?
> 
> ...



The main problem with your argument is the fact you're not understanding that this is a power level-type thread. You said "I didn't say Naruto wasn't as strong as a Chuunin" when really right out that's all that needs to be said. If this thread was truly about how Naruto's being able to fulfill these certain ninja positions I guarantee you 99% of the posts won't even be here. We're all talking about being as strong as one, not anything else. With that being said Naruto's strength would have been Chuunin level in the Chuunin exams. Dwelling on anything else isn't relevant. This is about fighting prowess. 

Now as for Jounin it's obvious Naruto would have been that level based on who Naruto is, what he's doing and exactly the feats he did until he even went into Fuuton training. It's common sense really. None of the Rookies bar Sasuke should have been able to compete with Naruto including Neji given who Naruto was training with and the things he could do after timeskip even before the training. If they were Chuunin and Neji, Kankurou and Temari were Jounin (low Jounin more than likely) chances are Naruto would be there as well. He doesn't have to show he's up to that point, it's deducting through everything relating to his strength. 

Once he beat Pain Naruto wasn't weaker than just about every Kage. Tsunade couldn't have beaten Pain, regardless Naruto's strength was Kage level. Pain could battle Kages, Pain was a monster. Naruto could compete with Pain. Logic tells us somehow he'd be Kage level even if you disagree with how he did it and how he'd do against Kages. If we go by that logic Tsunade, the Hokage, wouldn't even be Kage level and would just be the Ho. No pun intended but honestly there's different levels within just Kage level just like there's different levels within other ranks. There's Jounin and then there's the strongest, the Elite Jounins. Then you have Jounins such as Kakashi and Gai who are on the very bottom of the Kage level themselves that can't compete with Kages. It's all within a tier of levels and within that it makes sense. 

And another people is that people assume that Kage is the final level in the tier bracket. Of course not. Kage level has been surpassed. There's Beyond Kage level now and that's likely where it'll be until there's a level beyond that near the end. We can't be stuck within the same small tiers as there's been since part 1 ended. Hell, I remember when people said that Kage level would officially be it. Unfortunately it's not true. The Kages are tough but they've been surpassed. 

Simple as that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 6, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> A: Would speedblitz the 6 paths and wipe them out before they could be revived. It would be difficult for them to coordinate their attacks against someone so fast.


Shared Vision is the perfect counter for high speed. They were able to react to both Sage Mode Naruto and Sage Mode Jiraiya's speed just fine. As well as the confirmed hypersonic Rasenshuriken-the only other person to dodge was the Third Raikage. 

A has no ability to get beyond Animal Path's summons, nor can he resist a Bansho Ten'in + Soul Rip combo. 


> Mei: With he two kekei genkai and the hidden mist technique she could have rendered the rinnegan useless in terms of the shared field of vision. The boil release used within the hidden mist could kill all of the paths simultaneously before they could defend themselves.


You do remember that Shinra Tensei disperses ninjutsu right? And Preta Path absorbs it? Yeah, Hidden Mist and Futton are rendered useless right from the get go. 


> Gaara - Uses his sand to obscure the rinnegans vision and isolate each body, add in sand coffin and sand burial to crush the opponents and he's good to go. I know the shinra tensei would blow the sand away but gaara's sand is easily fast enough to make use of the recharge time. The only reason gaara lost to deidra is because he was attempting to protect the village as well, without that distraction Gaara is still one of the top 10 shinobi we've seen.


What's stopping Gaara from being grabbed by Bansho Ten'in? And what's stopping Preta from just absorbing all the sand like Madara did? 

Asura's Arsenal would keep him very, very pressured.


> Onoki - This one I'm a little less certain about, however the dust release would certainly provide a problem for the 6 paths, along with rock clones, and his ability to make objects lighter and heavier I am certain that Onoki had the skills necessary to defeat pein.


...dude, are you forgetting about Pain's 'I can absorb ninjutsu' Preta Path? As well as the fact _Deva can fly_ and _deflect_ Jinton with Shinra Tensei? 

You seemed to have forgotten Pain's abilities.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Feb 6, 2012)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> The main problem with your argument is the fact you're not understanding that this is a power level-type thread. You said "I didn't say Naruto wasn't as strong as a Chuunin" when really right out that's all that needs to be said. If this thread was truly about how Naruto's being able to fulfill these certain ninja positions I guarantee you 99% of the posts won't even be here. We're all talking about being as strong as one, not anything else. With that being said Naruto's strength would have been Chuunin level in the Chuunin exams. Dwelling on anything else isn't relevant. This is about fighting prowess.
> Simple as that.


my mistake, I was merely going off the OP which didn't mention anything about this being strictly in regards to power-level. Based off of only fighting prowess assumption then yes Naruto was a chunin during the second leg of the chunin exams.

I still believe that Neji, Temari, Kankuro, Kurenai and Asuma would all defeat naruto at the start of part 2. Temari is a mid/long range specialist while Naruto had noting but close-quarter attacks until he developed sage mode and could throw FRS. Also, as stated in part 1, Temari is something of an expert strategist so yes she would be able to deduce Naruto's weakness and use it against him. We've been told pretty explicitly how difficult puppet masters are to fight against, hence Chiyo controlling Sakura to defeat Sasori, and Kankuro certainly is a puppet master. All Kankuro needs to do is scratch Naruto to poison him and the victory is his. Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist which happens to be one of Naruto's biggest weaknesses so yes he would lose to her. (I'm only doing those three because I don't feel like writing too much more right now)

Kage level - As I said in my first post, I get why Naruto may have appeared to be kage level, however with the onset of the war we have clearly seen just how powerful the kage are. I don't believe that Naruto was truly their equal until RM. I also said that with the exception of Tsunade any of the kage's could defeat Pein, because Tsunade is easily the weakest kage, and in my opinion nothing she has done has shown her to be deserving of the title if all you care about is fighting power. 

That's all I'm going to say about the issue I don't really care that much, I just wanted to defend my opinion one last time.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 6, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> People seem to have become quite upset over my opinion regardin when naruto reached what levels. So I will briefly defend my positions in greater detail.
> 
> Chunin - during the chunin exam we are explicitly told that being a chunin is about more than fighting prowess, there is also the mental side of it as well. I didn't say Naruto wasn't as strong as a chunin I said he wasn't chunin level until the sasuke retrieval arc, you have to consider all the elements that go into making a ninja chunin. Furthermore, if Naruto was chunin-level before the sasuke retrieval arc why wasn't he made a chunin before he left with jiraiya to train?
> 
> ...




Naruto was definantly stronger than all of the kages after his fight with pain, he beat freakin pain, who was wayyyyy above any kage. Naruto was a step above them all with the raikage coming the closest in power. Once naruto went RM, he was miles above them all, hell his sage clones took out edo kages, you have no idea what you're talking about in a power perspective.


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## Laura (Feb 7, 2012)

DarkRasengan said:


> Once naruto went RM, he was miles above them all, hell his sage clones took out edo kages



I thought his Kyuubi mode clones took out the Kages, not the sage ones.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 7, 2012)

Agsrower said:


> I thought his Kyuubi mode clones took out the Kages, not the sage ones.


Datclone went Sage Mode to defeat the Third Raikage.


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## 3rdgenkage (Feb 7, 2012)

LMAO at the thought of Temari winning against Naruto HAHAHAHAHAH but seriously enough with the jokes. Naruto was fighting akatsuki members at the start of part 1. No regular Chuunin could last 5 seconds with Akatsuki memebers. Most Jonin were weaker then Naruto after the time skip this fool blasted Itachi's clone not your average Jonin could do that so right there tells you that at the start of part 1 Naruto was Jonin. Naruto also fought on par with Kakashi and did alright against Deidara most Jonin would have gotten blown up by Deidara. 

About Sage Mode Naruto it is pretty obvious that he is kage level he beat Pain for goodness sakes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Each of Pain's bodies were ripping through Jonin left and right yet Naruto took out Pain bodies left and right. Pain would absorb and repel all of Mei's attacks Mei would die quickly against Pain. Raikage might get a few but his fate would be like Jiriaya's. Gaara might stand a chance but those 6 Pain bodies come up with clever things and would eventually get him. Onoki would do the best because he has a lot of different ninjutsu's but still most of his might get absorbed. Every Kage would get mopped by Pain and its that simple.


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## Golden Circle (Feb 7, 2012)

Whenever someone says so. 

I'm not kidding. Whenever I see someone say X is Y tier a little bit of me dies inside. Tiers are completely subjective and pointless because
they don't affect the plot. At all.
they are determined by your POV
databook only goes to 5
Kishi doesn't know about them and couldn't care less
So kindly screw all the other invented levels that Kishi doesn't know about and take it to the place least designed for it. 

But never mind, I'm going to assume you won't listen that, so here goes: in my book he's still demi-kage level.  That's what the manga treats him as: subservient to all the Kages. Kage level has been and always will be the highest the manga goes. Who would have thought? :amazed


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## The Scientist (Feb 7, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> Chunin: Part II I think Naruto was able the leve*l at the begining of part II. He was definitely not Jonin level. Guy or Kakashi would easily rape his ass.*



kakashi is the top jounin in konoha, and gai is probably second to him which makes them elite jounin. this also means that there are other jounin far below both kakashi and gai in technique and power/abilities, yet they are jounin. if you cant prove that naruto at the beginning of part 2 is as strong as the weakest jounin in konoha, you cant say that he isn't jounin level.


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## Whirlpool (Feb 7, 2012)

Golden Circle said:


> Whenever someone says so.
> 
> I'm not kidding. Whenever I see someone say X is Y tier a little bit of me dies inside. Tiers are completely subjective and pointless because
> they don't affect the plot. At all.
> ...



So if we make enough tier threads you'll eventually die?

 I have your life in my hands, do thy bidding


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Feb 7, 2012)

I have a slightly different view.


Beginning of the series-Academy Student with Balls level.

Post Kage Bunshin-Genin with a Jonin Trump Card.

Post Summoning Training-Chunin with a Kage Trump Card and a Jonin Trump Card.

Post Rasengan Training-Chunin with a Kage Trump and Two Jonin Trump Cards.

Post Time Skip-Special Jonin

Post Futon Training- Jonin

Post Senjutsu Training-Kage

Post Biju Training- Kage but starting to approach Rikudo Sennin

Post Kurama Alliance- Closer to Rikudo Sennin than the Kage


Part of a key of Naruto's development is his thinking. As the series has progressed especially early on he was gaining techniques that he hadn't advanced enough to know how to use perfectly. As his mind has caught up, he has gained the levels of his techniques. Knowing Rasengan doesn't make you Jonin level, knowing how to land it reliably makes you Jonin level. 

After the time skip, Jiraiya had mostly covered the intelligence gap with Naruto, but he was still focused. Over time he has become more and more well rounded.

It also grows with his focus and goals. But that's more a maturity thing. But in part 2 his intelligence was at the point where he could effectively apply what he knew, so at that point, if Naruto gained a new skill then he also increased in level. He's smart enough to use the Futon: Rasenshuriken effectively, he smart enough to use Sage Mode effectively.


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## joshhookway (Feb 12, 2012)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> I have a slightly different view.
> 
> 
> Beginning of the series-Academy Student with Balls level.
> ...



I kind of agree. Although, Gamabunta wasn't a kage trump. Naruto couldn't control him and Gamabunta would get raped by any kage levels

Naruto was very weak at the beginning of part II


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 12, 2012)

Philip.J.Fry said:


> He was mid kage with RM Mode?
> 
> He pretty much took over the war by himself.
> He fought:
> ...



Not Itachi ...

On-Topic.

Genin: Start of the Series pretty much.
mid-Chunnin: After battle with Neji.
high-Chunnin: After learning Rasengan.
mid-Jounin: Post TS.
low-Kage: After battle with Kakuzu.
high-Kage: After learning Sage Mode.
high-Kage (sligthly stronger than SM overall): RM mode.
Demi-God-Tier: FBM mode.
...
God-Tier: At the end of the manga together with Rikudou Sennin  *and possibly* Sasuke, Tobi and Madara since these three are main villains and all, 2 possessing the Rinnegan and Sharingan and Sasuke hyped to be equal to Naruto .


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## jdbzkh (Feb 13, 2012)

Lets list Naruto's power up's along with his ranking 

Naruto sexy no jutsu = Student 

Naruto TKB = Genin 

Naruto TKB, KB, Rasengan, summoning, KN0 = Chunin 

Naruto TKB, KB, Rasengan, summoning, KN0-4, Rasengan variants = Jounin

Naruto TKB, KB, Rasengan, summoning, KN0-4, Rasengan variants & FRS = Kage 

Naruto TKB, KB, Rasengan, summoning, KN0-6, Rasengan variants, 100% FRS & Sage Mode = High Kage 

Naruto TKB, KB, Rasengan, summoning, KN0-6, Rasengan variants, 100% FRS, Sage Mode, FRS variants & biju mode = Kage +

Naruto TKB, KB, Rasengan, summoning, KN0-6, Rasengan variants, 100% FRS, Sage Mode, FRS variants, biju mode & Kurama = Demi Rikudou


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