# Shonen mangaka are soft....



## Paranoid Android (Jan 16, 2011)

I've realized a trend with alot of shonen manga, but alot of them don't have enough balls to kill good guys. Kishi and Kubo are prime examples. however minor, it's annoying that guys like kakashi or rangiku have bullshitted out of their deaths because the mangaka don't have enough balls to kill off a good guy supporting character, in fear of retaliation from fans...


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## Blinky (Jan 16, 2011)

I like it when they're hard and throbbing.


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## Level7N00b (Jan 16, 2011)

Kishi killed Jiraiya! Thats equivalent to like, worth 100 people! 

But still, it's definitely worse with Kubo.


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## KLoWn (Jan 16, 2011)

Wouldn't Oda be the prime example when it comes to not killing characters? Good or bad.


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## luffy no haki (Jan 16, 2011)

bleh, In Fairy Tail no one is killed.

In OP at least Oda killed Bellmere


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## Paranoid Android (Jan 16, 2011)

well i haven't read onepiece since maybe 6 years ago and gave up on it after like the second grand line island. now that i look back though.... oda hasn't killed a good guy either.... fuck man, fandom mandem need to stop bitching at authors whenever characters are killed. it turns them into soft pussy-wankers.


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## KLoWn (Jan 16, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> well i haven't read onepiece since maybe 6 years ago and gave up on it after like the second grand line island. now that i look back though.... oda hasn't killed a good guy either.... fuck man, fandom mandem need to stop bitching at authors whenever characters are killed. it turns them into soft pussy-wankers.


Well he has killed like two now, excluding the flashback deaths, so he is on his way


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## Dante10 (Jan 16, 2011)

KLoWn said:


> Wouldn't Oda be the prime example when it comes to not killing characters? Good or bad.



Ace's and WB's deaths felt worlds more emotional than someone in Naruto or Bleach dying. Hell I felt worse watching the Going Merry get burned.

Oda usually kills people in flashbacks. Not that it means much, I don't really care. Some shit like Pell tanking a fucking bomb was beyond retarded. I didn't even care if he died or not, so just stay dead. I don't even see why Oda brought him back, he isn't interesting or anything close.


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## KLoWn (Jan 16, 2011)

Dante10 said:


> Ace's and WB's deaths felt worlds more emotional than someone in Naruto or Bleach dying. Hell I felt worse watching the Going Merry get burned.


WB's death scene was epic, but i couldn't really care less about Ace's.
Merry's so called "death" didn't even register on my radar.


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## Megaharrison (Jan 16, 2011)

Well with Whitebeard/Ace Oda has at last proven he can kill some relevant goodguys, though I wouldn't be surprised if Oda brings them back later miraculously later (like that Bird King in Alabasta). All that is left is Kubo among the "big 3". 

But yes as I've said before recently it's just the way the genre is, probably a result of the editors wanting to merchandise the product more successfully. The other "big names" in Shonen history tended to rarely kill major characters outside of flashbacks. Be they DBZ (where death was meaningless, everyone was brought back multiple times), YYH (no major character deaths I can think of, Genkai was brought back in the Sensui Arc), HxH (about to resurrect their only "major" death, if you can call Kaito major anyway), Kenshin (0 major deaths), Yu-Gi-Oh (0 major deaths), FMA (Only 2 major deaths, 1 of which happens towards the end of the final chapter), and so on.

It's really foolish to single out any individual Shonen author when you look at this pattern. 

Oh yeah, and the boat in One Piece doesn't count.


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## Rokudaime (Jan 17, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> I've realized a trend with alot of shonen manga, but alot of them don't have enough balls to kill good guys. Kishi and Kubo are prime examples. however minor, it's annoying that guys like kakashi or rangiku have bullshitted out of their deaths because the mangaka don't have enough balls to kill off a good guy supporting character, in fear of retaliation from fans...



Maybe their editor and SJ jump do not allow them to kill the character. If I not mistaken, one of the mangakas killed the popular character in his series and it caused the series ended/cancelled due to huge amount of fan rage/hate.

Mangaka draw manga for living, not for fun or enjoyment...so it is understandable that they do not want to destroy their own "rice bowl"


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## Basilikos (Jan 17, 2011)

Kishi killed off Jiraiya and Asuma.

Kubo, however....


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## Edward Newgate (Jan 17, 2011)

KLoWn said:


> Wouldn't Oda be the prime example when it comes to not killing characters? Good or bad.


Oda killed Whitebeard, that enough had way more impact on the story than any of Naruto's deaths.

Jiraiya died, but it didn't affect the story much, outside of Naruto's training and triumph against Pain (without Jiraiya dying, I doubt Naruto would've started his Sennin Mode training) but that's it.

So that's pretty much enough.


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## KLoWn (Jan 17, 2011)

Rokudaime said:


> If I not mistaken, one of the mangakas killed the popular character in his series and it caused the series ended/cancelled due to huge amount of fan rage/hate.


What manga was that?



Edward Newgate said:


> Oda killed Whitebeard, that enough had way more impact on the story than any of Naruto's deaths.
> 
> Jiraiya died, but it didn't affect the story much, outside of Naruto's training and triumph against Pain (without Jiraiya dying, I doubt Naruto would've started his Sennin Mode training) but that's it.
> 
> So that's pretty much enough.


The subject here wasn't how much of an impact said characters deaths had on the story though, it's about why so few good characters gets killed off in shounen, and which mangaka that does it the least.


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## Frostman (Jan 17, 2011)

Its a shonen thing. Its a rule as to not upset the kiddies. Just accept it.


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## Smoke (Jan 17, 2011)

Shonen is aimed at 12 yr olds.




This ain't no seinen.



Kids don't want to read shit where their favorite guys keep dying.


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## Drakor (Jan 17, 2011)

Shonen isn't a seinen...can't expect a genre aimed at the crowd in general including kids to have as much gore and death as Berserk or gantz


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## Mist Puppet (Jan 17, 2011)

Blinky said:


> I like it when they're hard and throbbing.



You, good sir, are a trooper.


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## Utopia Realm (Jan 17, 2011)

I would loved it though if Kubo killed every VC and junior captain in the FKT battle. For most shounen I read, the action isn't really as big as the hype people on NF give them.


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## Paranoid Android (Jan 17, 2011)

Smoke said:


> Shonen is aimed at 12 yr olds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



death opens up the door for new characters though. i don't get why shonen ppl don't get it....


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## Superstars (Jan 17, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> I've realized a trend with alot of shonen manga, but alot of them don't have enough balls to kill good guys. Kishi and Kubo are prime examples. however minor, it's annoying that guys like kakashi or rangiku have bullshitted out of their deaths because the mangaka don't have enough balls to kill off a good guy supporting character, in fear of retaliation from fans...



And u heard of this from where?
Got an official source?


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## Smoke (Jan 17, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> death opens up the door for new characters though. i don't get why shonen ppl don't get it....



THEY. ARE. 12. YEARS. OLD.




Explain that to them.


Look takeshi, I know your 2 favorite characters were killed, but that's no reason to stop reading. I know that if you keep reading, some newer characters will appear and over time, you might like them as much as these ones......that died.


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## Deleted member 125418 (Jan 17, 2011)

I think it's true that some mangaka don't kill off main characters because they don't want their creations to die, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. People get attached to the characters they make, and it's a waste to kill off a character you could've used in the future. If their deaths drive the story forward or if there's some point being made then it'd be fine, but death for the sake of showing death doesn't automatically make it good, or mature, or whatever you're getting at.


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## Proxy (Jan 17, 2011)

luffy no haki said:


> bleh, In Fairy Tail no one is killed.
> 
> In OP at least Oda killed Bellmere



Mashima killed Sieg, and he was one of the most popular characters in Rave.

And based on how things are going in this arc, someone is going to die.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 17, 2011)

In the case of Naruto I think that Kishi killing so many of the Akatsuki, and early on, was detrimental to it, rather than helping. He should have developed them more and kept them alive for more.


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## MakeEmum (Jan 17, 2011)

Kishi killed Jaraiya, who was of the few good characters left in Naruto
Oda Killed Ace, how many authors in any fiction had the main character go through all that to save someone then the person they were trying to save dies right in front of him/her anyways? not much
Kubo... well he killed pretty of bad guys lol, almost none of these arrancars are gonna be seen again


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## Kirath (Jan 17, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Oda killed Whitebeard, that enough had way more impact on the story than any of Naruto's deaths.
> 
> Jiraiya died, but it didn't affect the story much, outside of Naruto's training and triumph against Pain (without Jiraiya dying, I doubt Naruto would've started his Sennin Mode training) but that's it.
> 
> So that's pretty much enough.



It doesn't matter how much it affects the story, what matters is the readers' emotional bond with the character. Whitebeard, unlike Jiraya for example, didn't have the panel time necessary for readers to really get any real connection to him.


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## Danchou (Jan 17, 2011)

Togashi killed Netero, Kaito, Pokkuro, Ponzu and several significant characters like Ubougin and Pakunoda.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 17, 2011)

i prefer kubo's style of doing things if they HAVE to not kill people off  I'd rather somebody be wounded gravely but still live than die and just come back to life aka hax deus ex which dont make any sense (the entire pain arc being rendered utterly pointless)


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## Neelon (Jan 17, 2011)

Kishi killed Sarutobi, Minato, Jiraiya, Asuma, Itachi whereas Kubo killed... fucking rofl no one. Not even hinamori.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 17, 2011)

sarutobi was old, minato was already dead, jiraiya was old and served no purpose, asuma was a nobody and itachi was a 'bad guy' 


If you want to add in minato, than you can say that kaien and masaki, and inoue's brother counted


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## Malvingt2 (Jan 17, 2011)

I will not bother with Naruto" it is a mess" and OP Oda killed two great characters which we OP fans will never forget... Those deaths impact OP world so much and that what you suppose to do in a plot.


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## Sferr (Jan 17, 2011)

I agree with *kijogigo*. If a certain character's death isn't needed for a plot or a certain character's development than why to kill him?


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## viduka0101 (Jan 17, 2011)

I can't believe Apachai is still alive
so disappointed,why isn't he dead


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## Kei (Jan 17, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> death opens up the door for new characters though. i don't get why shonen ppl don't get it....



Because Shounen is forward to ages 12-16 

Death in this genre is rare because they don't want to anger their auidence who are just young kids. 

Now if you want to see someone die in mostly every other chapter pick up a Senein

That geared to 17-and up

Death is expect and you will have a few crushing skulls and death of a supporting or main character, leaving another slot open.


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## Dei (Jan 17, 2011)

Actully i dont think kubo for example could handle a good death scene. Kishi did a decent job with Asuma and Jiraya same goes for Oda with Ace whitebeards death wasn't sad just epic. I would say like previous people if you want to read good death scenes read mangas that are aimed at a higher age group doesen't have to be sennin, but i find that sennin mangas handle deaths better.


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## Hikawa (Jan 17, 2011)

This is why I love Gantz. You don't know who the fuck's gonna die.


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## Mastic (Jan 17, 2011)

Well the only thing I can say in Kubo's defense is that it'd be kinda weaksauce if anyone in Karakura town *wasn't* saved considering you have one of the strongest captains NOT take part in a battle for the world. Unohana spent her entire time working on the injured, not to mention Hachi, who has similar powers to Orihime, was helping heal aswell. So with all these people being able to heal most injuries (especially Orihime) it would be contradicting if their one task was unfulfilled.


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## Malumultimus (Jan 17, 2011)

Uh...because death isn't cool?

Neither is gravity or convection or ugly people.

People read fiction to get away from what makes our real lives so shitty. The people who want those shitty things probably haven't experienced them all too much in the real world. People who have don't find it so amusing anymore that you'd use such a serious topic as a plot point for your little kid's cartoon.

As an author, you also risk writing yourself into a bad situation if not planned properly. Risking that to please people who aren't your main demographic is a bit silly. And at least sometimes there's an in-universe explanation (attacks were meant to do something else, the character doesn't believe in killing, etc.)

I also don't see how "opening a door for new characters" is a good thing, either. New characters to replace ones that were fine? Okay... Doesn't _that_ bother you more than characters not dying? Because in the real world, a newcomer doesn't spawn out of thin air just because someone dies.

I'd rather have characters put on a bus because a new profession called them or because they've decided to stay off-panel and fight mooks or because they're critically injured and will make a big return later. All which are just as realistic as dying but a hundred times more interesting to read.

And people die in Bleach all the time: people just don't care about them because they're technically already dead.


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## KLoWn (Jan 17, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> sarutobi was old, jiraiya was old


Whitebeard was old. Old people don't matter?


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## Punpun (Jan 17, 2011)

Because making character dies totally make a manga deep. right ?


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## Paranoid Android (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandom said:


> Because making character dies totally make a manga deep. right ?



not it. i just don't like being teased, trolled and coddled to death by characters "dying" only for them to be bailed out by a last second plot maneuver. Kakashi is a good example.


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## ichigeau (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandom said:


> Because making character dies totally make a manga deep. right ?



ye i dont get why people want character to be killed in their show...
like they all say *eh no good guy die in bleach* so what ? it help the story ? it make it *more realistic ?* its a fantasy manga/anime, since when its suposed to be realistic ? 

if ex: kenpachi die vs a villain, it will only make me lost interess cause i cant see one of my fav character. i dont care how people bash and hate bleach, i still like it why ? cause there is so manny character that i like, i dont want them to die. 

like whit jiraya in naruto, what did it do ? a good guy died, it only make me lost interess, jiraya was awesome, why kill him ? and asuma too, what we have now ? if you ask me what are my favorite character right now in naruto.... em..... kakashi and..... nobody... the other are all dead or they are ignored


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## aionaraP (Jan 17, 2011)

kubo couldve killed hitsugay when hallibel cut her in two but no, kubo just pulled a kage bunshin no jutsu from his ass.

kubo had another chance to kill off a main character during the FKT arc and she's none other than the ever useless orihime, this bitch was supposed to die at the hands of ulquiorra while he was reaching for "the heart" but kubo is such a pussy he made a last minute decision to save her. her last epic line wouldve been "i......i-ichigo-kun"


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## Mist Puppet (Jan 17, 2011)

Yep, because pointless deaths are the best kind of deaths. 

lol aionaraP


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## ichigeau (Jan 17, 2011)

aionaraP said:


> kubo couldve killed hitsugay when hallibel cut her in two but no, kubo just pulled a kage bunshin no jutsu from his ass.
> 
> kubo had another chance to kill off a main character during the FKT arc and she's none other than the ever useless orihime, this bitch was supposed to die at the hands of ulquiorra while he was reaching for "the heart" but kubo is such a pussy he made a last minute decision to save her. her last epic line wouldve been "i......i-ichigo-kun"





^ actually its *kurosaki-kun* dont remember me that...
those voice still hunt my dreams 


*Spoiler*: __ 









in an episode she said *kurosaki-kun* 19 time, in ONE single episode its not a joke, imagine in all the episodes combined


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jan 17, 2011)

My favourite characters of all time are Hinamori,Lucy and Ten Ten, so i'm okay with this softness :33


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## Kellogem (Jan 17, 2011)

its not the death itself thats suppose to make a manga better, but the way they die... it could be tragic, emotional, give a new meaning to things, can make it more realistic (it doesnt matter if its a fantasy manga or absurd shit happens in it, if there are fights, people should die). it makes fights more serious and exciting, because you dont know if your favourite character will die next. it can give meaning to the ideologies of the characters (its meaningless and cheap when they say they are willing to die for this and that, but you just know the mangaka will always save their ass when they are about to sacrifice themselves).

deaths can make an impact on the reader, on the other characters in the story, and can lead to character development for the other characters.

OTOH when the mangake revive "dead" characters, its cheap, cowardly, bullshit and makes me feel like they tricked me.
if they dont want to kill certain character dont make it look like s/he is about to die in the first place... but than again, if they dont do that there is no place for drama and emotions.

in the end IMO they should kill off at least a couple of good guys, even if the point is not to kill off every and each of them. would make the story more serious and emotional, since even if someone who is about to die wont in the end, you cant be sure s/he wont if the mangaka killed other major characters before, so it would make a bigger impact on you. while if nobody dies you cant take those "emotional dying moments" seriously, cause you know its fake.


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## Extasee (Jan 17, 2011)

Kakashi isn't dead because he's a fucking good ninja.  Kishi killed off Jiriya and a bunch of other good guys. Why do you want Kakashi to die? For what reason?

Yes, yes I am butthurt.


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## MdB (Jan 17, 2011)

Hikawa said:


> This is why I love Gantz. You don't know who the fuck's gonna die.



Which is exactly why it's been reduced to overdone shock value instead of something consequential. All the deaths in Gantz are a cheap gimmick to flare up the ''mature'' content rather than being born from worthwhile storytelling.


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## Paranoid Android (Jan 17, 2011)

Kell?gem said:


> its not the death itself thats suppose to make a manga better, but the way they die... it could be tragic, emotional, give a new meaning to things, can make it more realistic (it doesnt matter if its a fantasy manga or absurd shit happens in it, if there are fights, people should die). it makes fights more serious and exciting, because you dont know if your favourite character will die next. it can give meaning to the ideologies of the characters (its meaningless and cheap when they say they are willing to die for this and that, but you just know the mangaka will always save their ass when they are about to sacrifice themselves).
> 
> deaths can make an impact on the reader, on the other characters in the story, and can lead to character development for the other characters.
> 
> ...



exactly. if the writer doesn't have the balls to kill off characters for some sentimental and plot-evolving purpose, then the next time a character nears death, its hard for the reader to take it seriously any more because nobody has died before.


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## ichigeau (Jan 17, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> exactly. if the writer doesn't have the balls to kill off characters for some sentimental and plot-evolving purpose, then the next time a character nears death, its hard for the reader to take it seriously any more because nobody has died before.




but maybe not all manga are suposed to be serious ?
we need diversity, if every show was all serious whit all the drama it would be boring, we need some that dosent take itself too seriously


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## Superstars (Jan 17, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> not it. i just don't like being teased, trolled and coddled to death by characters "dying" only for them to be bailed out by a last second plot maneuver. Kakashi is a good example.



Whether characters die or not or brought back from the grave doesn't make any difference. Doesn't make a series deeper or have any meaning because at the end of the day it's fantasy. Which means anything can happen, sometimes characters die, sometimes they don't, sometimes they are ressurected, sometimes not. Anyone getting iiritated at such things in Shounen fiction should be ashamed.


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## Kellogem (Jan 17, 2011)

Superstars said:


> Whether characters die or not or brought back from the grave doesn't make any difference. Doesn't make a series deeper or have any meaning because at the end of the day it's fantasy. Which means anything can happen, sometimes characters die, sometimes they don't, sometimes they are ressurected, sometimes not. Anyone getting iiritated at such things in Shounen fiction should be ashamed.



by this logic you shouldnt read them in the first place, since its just fantasy.

some people like to take what they read seriously cause thats how they enjoy it.


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## Kirath (Jan 17, 2011)

If you know that everything will be fine at the end of the day, where is the suspense?


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## Superstars (Jan 17, 2011)

Kell?gem said:


> by this logic you shouldnt read them in the first place, since its just fantasy.
> 
> some people like to take what they read seriously cause thats how they enjoy it.



It being fantasy is the reason I read it..to escape reality.
If people take fantasy seriously then they need to get a life, a real one. Life is as serious as it gets and I like to escape it by seeing reality being distorted.


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## Platinum (Jan 17, 2011)

Deaths for the sake of deaths is stupid. It accomplishes nothing and serves no storytelling purpose.

But I also agree that having everyone live no matter how improbable serves no purpose as well and sucks all the tension and suspense out of a story. If you don't believe that people in a story are in danger it takes all the emotion out of the story. Some characters serve the story better by dying than living, the reverse is also true.

So I take a middle ground.


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## Kellogem (Jan 17, 2011)

Superstars said:


> It being fantasy is the reason I read it..to escape reality.
> If people take fantasy seriously then they need to get a life, a real one. Life is as serious as it gets and I like to escape it by seeing reality being distorted.



there is no point in reading certain stories if you dont take them seriously.
like drama.. if someone dies and you cant feel a thing cause it fantasy it kills the point of the whole thing

reading comedy and not taking it seriously is ok, but shounen mangas tend to try making you emotional which they cant do unless you feel with the characters to a degree imo.

its not wrong taking a story seriously if it takes itself as well.


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## Superstars (Jan 17, 2011)

Kell?gem said:


> there is no point in reading certain stories if you dont take them seriously.
> like drama.. if someone dies and you cant feel a thing cause it fantasy it kills the point of the whole thing
> 
> reading comedy and not taking it seriously is ok, but shounen mangas tend to try making you emotional which they cant do unless you feel with the characters to a degree imo.
> ...


Obviously they don't, ressurections and survivng nuclear blasts at point blank ain't serious business.


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## Hikawa (Jan 17, 2011)

MdB said:


> Which is exactly why it's been reduced to overdone shock value instead of something consequential. All the deaths in Gantz are a cheap gimmick to flare up the ''mature'' content rather than being born from worthwhile storytelling.



The deaths add up to also give the story more reality if you ask me.
Sure it doesn't have the best plot, but it's working on it atm.


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## Punpun (Jan 17, 2011)

> The deaths add up to also give the story *more reality
> *


Realism in Gantz ? 

Oh god.


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## Kellogem (Jan 17, 2011)

Superstars said:


> Obviously they don't, ressurections and survivng nuclear blasts at point blank ain't serious business.



just because its not realistic doesnt mean its not serious.


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## Hikawa (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandom said:


> Realism in Gantz ?
> 
> Oh god.



Hey I was talking about the realism for the characters and how they react to death and so on. No need to neg like a poo face.


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## Punpun (Jan 17, 2011)

It was just so funny. 

After your comment on nukes I just couldn't resist.


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## Basilikos (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandom said:


> It was just so funny.
> 
> After your comment on nukes I just couldn't resist.


Nukes can destroy stars.


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## Punpun (Jan 17, 2011)

Correction, A bunch of nukes can destroy everything.


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## Hikawa (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandom said:


> It was just so funny.
> 
> After your comment on nukes I just couldn't resist.


There's nothing funny about it.


Basilikos said:


> Nukes can destroy stars.



Why can't they? Nobody is explaining this shit to me.


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## Punpun (Jan 17, 2011)

If I laughed it was. 

Hint ? I laughed.


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## Narcissus (Jan 17, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> I've realized a trend with alot of shonen manga, but alot of them don't have enough balls to kill good guys. Kishi and Kubo are prime examples. however minor, it's annoying that guys like kakashi or rangiku have bullshitted out of their deaths because the mangaka don't have enough balls to kill off a good guy supporting character, in fear of retaliation from fans...



Killing of major characters, or an author's refusal to do so, does not bother me much. Sure, I might develop some kind of attatchment to a character, but if the character dies in a way that moves the plot in a good direction, then I'll be fine with it.

Conversely, not killing off characters can indeed be annoying in a minor way, depending on how its handled. Such as Pain resurrecting everyon he had killed in Konoha, which was a massive asspull. But on the whole, it's not something I find too important. There are much worse problems with the writing of some manga than that little example. Like the lack of character development, lazy art, awful dialogue, etc.


Hikawa said:


> The deaths add up to also give the story more reality if you ask me.
> Sure it doesn't have the best plot, but it's working on it atm.



No, it really isn't.

Killing a bunch of unlikable characters in a repetitive manner makes the plot(or lack there of) boring and dry. Gantz suffers from an unnecessary amount of violence and sexual content, none of which is used to further the story in any way, and there isn't an ounce of realism in it. 

I'm actually glad you brought the series up. It's a perfect example of why I find the OP's complaint to be on the minor side. Excessive Killing does not make a manga (or any work of fiction) more mature.

Gantz, more like garbage.


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## Malumultimus (Jan 17, 2011)

The reality is people are more upset over death than teasing. People always get angry when an author saves a character from death, but when one really does die, the outrage is typically worse. If a character gets saved, it's an, "Aw, c'mon..." If a character is killed, it's, "Are you fucking kidding me?"

And that's because death in a fictional story does nothing except allow character development; character development that could have been inspired by literally _anything else._ Death in a flashback, for example - because we feel less like someone has been erased from the story and more like our character is simply carrying a heavy emotional scar.

And a fictional character dying feels empty half the time, because you're reading a series with goddamn magic so you know the possibility of them coming back is always there. This is true for losing limbs, as well. Meanwhile, savage beatings and mind rapes (or real rapes) you can feel, because it doesn't matter if they "get better" - every inch of their being has already been selfishly violated. You'll find that the saddest moments in Naruto and One Piece _aren't_ actual deaths, because whether they survived or not meant shit to how moving the scenes were.


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## Kellogem (Jan 17, 2011)

Malumultimus said:


> The reality is people are more upset over death than teasing. People always get angry when an author saves a character from death, but when one really does die, the outrage is typically worse. If a character gets saved, it's an, "Aw, c'mon..." If a character is killed, it's, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
> 
> And that's because death in a fictional story does nothing except allow character development; character development that could have been inspired by literally _anything else._ Death in a flashback, for example - because we feel less like someone has been erased from the story and more like our character is simply carrying a heavy emotional scar.
> 
> And a fictional character dying feels empty half the time, because you're reading a series with goddamn magic so you know the possibility of them coming back is always there. This is true for losing limbs, as well. Meanwhile, savage beatings and mind rapes (or real rapes) you can feel, because it doesn't matter if they "get better" - every inch of their being has already been selfishly violated. You'll find that the saddest moments in Naruto and One Piece _aren't_ actual deaths, because whether they survived or not meant shit to how moving the scenes were.




dunno, imo the saddest part of naruto was Hakus and Zabuzas death and Im sure if they would have survived it, I wouldnt give a shit (and Im upset Kishi revived them even if he will kill them again).

I remember Neji "dying" againt Kidoumaru was so sad... until it turned out he didnt die, than I felt cheated.

just like that, if Im thinking about good death scenes which the mangaka handled well, they wouldnt be the same if you would replace them with a tragic "beating".

also in shounen they are never really violated to the point it would leave mental (or physical) scars, at the end of the day all of them are smiling like nothing happened unless somebody dies. you can beat the living shit out of someone like naruto, his wounds will just heal in a half chapter and he will be the same as before, you can cut out the whole beating from the manga and nobody would notice.


----------



## KLoWn (Jan 17, 2011)

Kell?gem said:


> I remember Neji "dying" againt Kidoumaru was so sad... until it turned out he didnt die, than I felt cheated.


Chouji's and Neji's "deaths" was done superb in the anime, they really should've died there.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 17, 2011)

Haku and Zabuza are good examples of well-used character deaths, as it stuck a lot of emotion in fans. Of course, this was back when the manga was still decent.

Another example was Spike's ambiguous death at the end of Cowboy Bebop. That was used   exceptionally well  to end the anime.

But the main point is that it isn't necessary to further the story, especially if it's done in a meaningless way.


----------



## Hikawa (Jan 17, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> No, it really isn't.
> 
> Killing a bunch of unlikable characters in a repetitive manner makes the plot(or lack there of) boring and dry. Gantz suffers from an unnecessary amount of violence and sexual content, none of which is used to further the story in any way, and there isn't an ounce of realism in it.
> 
> ...



there's plenty of realism. It stems from the character's emotions and how they react to the missions.

Gantz isn't garbage. You must admit it has its good parts, even if you aren't an avid fan.


----------



## Paranoid Android (Jan 18, 2011)

Superstars said:


> It being fantasy is the reason I read it..to escape reality.
> If people take fantasy seriously then they need to get a life, a real one. Life is as serious as it gets and I like to escape it by seeing reality being distorted.



I am by no means taking it seriously as in "OMG THIS IS MY LIFE" seriously as you are implying. However, I feel that fiction needs to have an element of reality for it to reach the next level. If every character gets bailed out every time they're fatally hurt, it's no fun seeing all those near death revelations etc. when all that's going through your mind is "OMG stfu so we can see how you get bailed out". i get that with every single "death" scene in every single shonen. i don't expect those "deaths" to be anything more than a motivator for the guy saving him or a massive powerup for the guy coming back. it's annoying as hell.

And this "fantasy" genre you refer to, all of the major works of western fantasy have some element of death or loss to it. JK Rowling killed Sirius, Dumbledore, Snape, Fred. Tolkein killed Boromir and Theoden. Pullman (His Dark Materials) killed Asriel and Coulter, among countless others. Fuck, even George Lucas killed Yoda and Obi Wan. There are more fantasy stories out there that all have significant deaths, and usually don't get a bullshit resurrection (except for the case of tolkein, except gandalf never really died).


----------



## aionaraP (Jan 18, 2011)

> ^ actually its *kurosaki-kun* dont remember me that...
> those voice still hunt my dreams



yes its always kurosaki-kun but orihime will finally call him by his first name when she dies



> in an episode she said *kurosaki-kun* 19 time, in ONE single episode its not a joke, imagine in all the episodes combined



hmmm i think you should create an amv for orihime featuring all those time that she said kurosaki-kun and have it posted on youtube. and you can just share the link here just for the lulz 



> The reality is people are more upset over death than teasing. People always get angry when an author saves a character from death, but when one really does die, the outrage is typically worse. If a character gets saved, it's an, "Aw, c'mon..." If a character is killed, it's, "Are you fucking kidding me?"



this is so true. the ones who are mad when a character dies are the fanboys and trolls. they all take it seriously like someone from their family dies and they all rage in the forums. and with the trolls making shit worse by jumping along their bandwagon because trolls think that they would look cool for liking exceptionally shitty characters..


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## UsoppYusukeLuffy (Jan 18, 2011)

People still read Bleach........ wow thats all I have to say


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## Blinky (Jan 18, 2011)

UsoppYusukeLuffy said:


> People still read Bleach........ wow thats all I have to say



Oh no people like something you don't like.


----------



## KBL (Jan 18, 2011)

People still read One Piece .

.


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## Narcissus (Jan 18, 2011)

Hikawa said:


> there's plenty of realism. It stems from the character's emotions and how they react to the missions.



When people die and then get suddenly teleported into a locked room with other strangers, no one is going to try and rape one of the other people in  the room. Nor would anyone be attempting to have sex on a life and death mission. These are examples of how Gantz overuses sex in unrealistic ways.


> Gantz isn't garbage. You must admit it has its good parts, even if you aren't an avid fan.



Yes, it really is. The only good thing about Gantz is the artwork. But the story is a repetitive and overdone mess, the characters are all unlikale and I often find myself hoping they die, the fights go on longer than necessay, and the fact that everyone gets killed makes it predictable and boring, eliminating the entire purpose. Gantz is awful.


----------



## Neelon (Jan 18, 2011)

Gantz is one of the worst shit ever, on par with Bleach and air gear. Why are we even talking about this crap.

Hikawa, what do you think about Air gear?


----------



## Basilikos (Jan 18, 2011)

UsoppYusukeLuffy said:


> People still read Bleach........ wow thats all I have to say


Got to get my lulz somehow. 

Also, I gave One Piece a try (the first 115 chapters) and wasn't impressed.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 18, 2011)

Blinky said:


> Oh no people like something you don't like.



Liking something and admitting it to be good or bad are two different things. Bleach is truly bad.


Neelon said:


> Gantz is one of the worst shit ever, on par with Bleach and air gear. Why are we even talking about this crap.
> 
> Hikawa, what do you think about Air gear?



It got brought up thanks to Hikawa trying to claim it as a good manga because of the mass killings in it, like that makes it more mature and well-written. Someone had to refute that nonsense.


----------



## Blinky (Jan 18, 2011)

> Someone had to refute that nonsense.



Nope. It's Hikawa responding to him only makes it worse.


----------



## Drakor (Jan 18, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> When people die and then get suddenly teleported into a locked room with other strangers, no one is going to try and rape one of the other people in  the room. Nor would anyone be attempting to have sex on a life and death mission. These are examples of how Gantz overuses sex in unrealistic ways.


It seems you've forgotten what people do when they're at the crossroads knowing they will die and want to do *something* before death. For instance, stealing, killing, rape, or trying to survive. 

If a bunch of rapist died with the victim and see said victim alone once more, what do you think happens? However I agree that the displays of sex in varying environments was overused but it has stopped for quite a while. That doesn't make or break a story, else you'd be saying Vinland Saga, Berserk, or Battle Royale was trash as well. 



Narcissus said:


> Yes, it really is. The only good thing about Gantz is the artwork. But the story is a repetitive and overdone mess, the characters are all unlikale and I often find myself hoping they die, the fights go on longer than necessay, and the fact that everyone gets killed makes it predictable and boring, eliminating the entire purpose. Gantz is awful.


The plot hasn't been conceived yet...I don't know how you can say the story is repetitive when so far it appears to be: 
"In a world where there is no God, heaven or hell, the dead are cloned and trained to create a special technologically advanced army to defend against invasions in secret."

I agree on the Nurarihyon mission lasting longer than necessary but it was the introduction of many things to the manga, and death is never easily predictable in Gantz unless the Character is on a suicide run, against the odds or did a very sacrificial act. However there certainly is very little plot shields when even main characters die so easily.


----------



## Hikawa (Jan 18, 2011)

Neelon said:


> Gantz is one of the worst shit ever, on par with Bleach and air gear. Why are we even talking about this crap.
> 
> Hikawa, what do you think about Air gear?



Air gear?
Tried reading it. It wasn't to my liking. 

and calling it the worst shit ever...c'mon...that title goes to fairy tail or some other manga.


----------



## Punpun (Jan 18, 2011)

Actually no. FT doesn't try to be serious shit like Gantz.


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## Hikawa (Jan 18, 2011)

Well I read a few chapters of fairy tail and it only looks like a cheap rip off of bleach/one piece malformation.


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## Basilikos (Jan 18, 2011)

Fairy Tail is certainly not the worst manga. It started off quite good but later became Bleach level terrible for a while. The current arc is decent atm. I just hope we don't get another Nakama Punch.


----------



## Mist Puppet (Jan 18, 2011)

Platinum said:


> Deaths for the sake of deaths is stupid. It accomplishes nothing and serves no storytelling purpose.
> 
> But I also agree that having everyone live no matter how improbable serves no purpose as well and sucks all the tension and suspense out of a story. If you don't believe that people in a story are in danger it takes all the emotion out of the story. Some characters serve the story better by dying than living, the reverse is also true.
> 
> So I take a middle ground.



Someone give this guy a medal. Beautiful post.


----------



## Drakor (Jan 18, 2011)

Fairy Tail is a watered down attempt at One Piece that employs never giving up and hope as key for defeating enemies far more powerful than them way too much. Indeed, it has started spiraling down the depths for a long time, Rave Master was much more intricate. 

This current arc would be good if Natsu doesn't magically gain a power up to defeat this so called "God Slayer" by "just being angry" since his magic is weaker. A good way for him to beat him is to finally acquire the ability to use Dragon Force. We also need to see if Laxus is going to save them as they're literally outclassed abroad by the 7 Kin.

However the topic is about Shonen and the lack of balls to kill off characters in good ways. Recently a while back, Histories Strongest Disciple could of killed a main character and turned an equally badass "villain" on the path of good in an epic way the fight was written.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 18, 2011)

Drakor said:


> It seems you've forgotten what people do when they're at the crossroads knowing they will die and want to do *something* before death. For instance, stealing, killing, rape, or trying to survive.
> 
> If a bunch of rapist died with the victim and see said victim alone once more, what do you think happens? However I agree that the displays of sex in varying environments was overused but it has stopped for quite a while. That doesn't make or break a story, else you'd be saying Vinland Saga, Berserk, or Battle Royale was trash as well.



In the situations the characters are placed in, people would be looking for ways to survive, realistically. Not doing something so utterly stupid that it would probably get them killed. And I doubt anyone is going to try and rape someone right after dying and being teleported into a locked room.

And I never said the use of sex makes or breaks a story. Any element can be used well to further develop and craft a plot. Gantz, however, fails at  this on a spectacular level, resulting in a sloppy mess that feels like it's just thrown in to make the mange look more mature.


> The plot hasn't been conceived yet...I don't know how you can say the story is repetitive when so far it appears to be:
> "In a world where there is no God, heaven or hell, the dead are cloned and trained to create a special technologically advanced army to defend against invasions in secret."
> 
> I agree on the Nurarihyon mission lasting longer than necessary but it was the introduction of many things to the manga, and death is never easily predictable in Gantz unless the Character is on a suicide run, against the odds or did a very sacrificial act. However there certainly is very little plot shields when even main characters die so easily.



The story is repetitive because it follows the same "rinse and repeat" cycle. Mission starts, people die in extremely violent was, survivors go home until the next mission. And you may not know exactly when a character will be killed off, but you know it is likely to happen, eliminating what is supposed to be the shock factor, thus making it predictable.

You're saying the plot hasn't been conceived yet, and the manga has been running for how long?


----------



## Drakor (Jan 18, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> In the situations the characters are placed in, people would be looking for ways to survive, realistically. Not doing something so utterly stupid that it would probably get them killed. And I doubt anyone is going to try and rape someone right after dying and being teleported into a locked room.


You'd be surprised what went down in Iraq, a friend of mine who was one of those who just returned shared his war stories of how some would play Ceelo on duty near enemy territory simply because "no one showed up yet". 

Theres many individuals who, seeing they're going to die "anyway", would rather go pillage, fighting, get revenge on those they detest, have sex, attempt to survive, or simply sit in corners praying to God hoping for the best before death. In ways, its akin to when people panic under threat of an epidemic or disaster like Katrina. Instead of surviving, people chose to steal Plasma TVs, rob peoples food, and invade homes. 


Narcissus said:


> And I never said the use of sex makes or breaks a story. Any element can be used well to further develop and craft a plot. Gantz, however, fails at  this on a spectacular level, resulting in a sloppy mess that feels like it's just thrown in to make the mange look more mature.


I never said you did, I used examples of manga which has mass killing and a lot of sex to show that saying it doesn't break a story. I also agreed that the portrayal of sex in different environments was overused in the early stages of Gantz. However most of it was to show the nature of the characters. 

Inaba: Just like the people I mentioned above, he was one of those who instead of surviving, did things they desired before death
Kurono: He was a loser, and a virgin who wanted to try it since he was dead already
Tae: Found her soul mate that doesn't need to be explained...
Reika: Similar to the above, obtained the one she was infatuated with



Narcissus said:


> The story is repetitive because it follows the same "rinse and repeat" cycle. Mission starts, people die in extremely violent was, survivors go home until the next mission. And you may not know exactly when a character will be killed off, but you know it is likely to happen, eliminating what is supposed to be the shock factor, thus making it predictable.
> 
> You're saying the plot hasn't been conceived yet, and the manga has been running for how long?


Majority of the missions has started with the aliens being peaceful, making people think if they were truly the enemy or not based on them asking "Why?" No one knew who was going to die back in the first 6 missions, the Vampire escapade and Catastrophe were easier to guess who would die since it was blatant *war*. I guess we just have differing opinions on how we view predictions. 

As for the question about the plot, we have no definite answer. All we know is that there is no heaven, hell, or God in the manga. When you die, you're gone and certain individuals are cloned for some reason to be used as soldiers in missions to eradicate "aliens" 

Then theres questions like these which would make the vague forming plot easier to define.

*Spoiler*: __ 




Who created the Gantz technology?
Is the Akasha Chronicles is relevant or is Sebastian trolling?
Are the aliens parts of human history? (Dinosaurs, Yokai, Gods, Demons) 
Are the aliens were man-made, used to train soldiers for Catastrophe?
Did the current arc enemy use humans to defeat earths alien to make purging easier for invasion?
Are the psychic abilities is akin to Aliens using their abilities making Gantz humans "aliens" as well?




Edit: I still say shonen like Bleach would be much more interesting had certain characters died at times. Like Yamamato perishing when he tried to take out Aizen, without making some cheesy comedy with him the next appearance. 

At least Fairy Tail is doing something about that with the last chapter...


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## MdB (Jan 18, 2011)

A lack of plot after hundreds of chapters is bad narrative direction, not something of actual merit.


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## Superstars (Jan 18, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> I am by no means taking it seriously as in "OMG THIS IS MY LIFE" seriously as you are implying. However, I feel that fiction needs to have an element of reality for it to reach the next level. If every character gets bailed out every time they're fatally hurt, it's no fun seeing all those near death revelations etc. when all that's going through your mind is "OMG stfu so we can see how you get bailed out". i get that with every single "death" scene in every single shonen. i don't expect those "deaths" to be anything more than a motivator for the guy saving him or a massive powerup for the guy coming back. it's annoying as hell.
> 
> And this "fantasy" genre you refer to, all of the major works of western fantasy have some element of death or loss to it. JK Rowling killed Sirius, Dumbledore, Snape, Fred. Tolkein killed Boromir and Theoden. Pullman (His Dark Materials) killed Asriel and Coulter, among countless others. Fuck, even George Lucas killed Yoda and Obi Wan. There are more fantasy stories out there that all have significant deaths, and usually don't get a bullshit resurrection (except for the case of tolkein, except gandalf never really died).


Why compare western movies/works to cartoons for kids. Cartoon characters defy the greatest laws of the world unlike those works you mentioned. This shows you take shounen seriously. Expecting an outcome of a situation when it can easily be twisted due to the realm it is in.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 18, 2011)

Neelon said:


> Gantz is one of the worst shit ever, on par with Bleach and air gear. Why are we even talking about this crap.
> 
> Hikawa, what do you think about Air gear?



Gantz is an epic manga with great depth and obviously your level of understanding is far below it..


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## MdB (Jan 18, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Gantz is an epic manga with great depth and obviously your level of understanding is far below it..


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## p-lou (Jan 18, 2011)

deja vu     .


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## ichigeau (Jan 18, 2011)

seem like people cant even mention 2 diferent manga in a thread whitout starting a flame war.


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## Mastic (Jan 18, 2011)

"Haters make the world go round" is one of the truest shit Ive ever heard forreal.


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## Wuzzman (Jan 18, 2011)

Dante10 said:


> Ace's and WB's deaths felt worlds more emotional



Except it didn't. WB died off screen and most likely from a heart attack. Ace death would have been remotely meaningful if it wasn't for the crap war arc surrounding it.

Most shounen authors have bad righting on their side. killing people left and right doesn't make you hard core. Jiryara's death in part 2 doesn't make kishi any less of a pussy. in fact the fact that his murder gets a pardon pretty much pissed on the j-mans grave.


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## bubble_lord (Jan 18, 2011)

Death doesn't make fiction better. Death in stories usually feels like a cheap way to add shock value. For example look what happened in the last Harry Potter novel which was an abortion of a book. I'm glad death isn't so frequent in Shonen and only when it is necessary.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 18, 2011)

Drakor said:


> You'd be surprised what went down in Iraq, a friend of mine who was one of those who just returned shared his war stories of how some would play Ceelo on duty near enemy territory simply because "no one showed up yet".
> 
> Theres many individuals who, seeing they're going to die "anyway", would rather go pillage, fighting, get revenge on those they detest, have sex, attempt to survive, or simply sit in corners praying to God hoping for the best before death. In ways, its akin to when people panic under threat of an epidemic or disaster like Katrina. Instead of surviving, people chose to steal Plasma TVs, rob peoples food, and invade homes.



It seems like you'd be surprised to hear there are just as many examples of people who think calmly and logically in stressful situations. The characters in Gantz are so mind-numbingly stupid that they cannot feel that it is unrealistic.


> I never said you did, I used examples of manga which has mass killing and a lot of sex to show that saying it doesn't break a story. I also agreed that the portrayal of sex in different environments was overused in the early stages of Gantz. However most of it was to show the nature of the characters.



Obviously one flaw does not make or break a manga. But that was one example, in addition to all the other flaws that makes Gantz bad. And I haven't read the other mangas you listed except for part of Battle Royale, so I cannot comment of how well they use this element. I doubt they'll involve students gang raping one of their classmates in a school bathroom though. 


> Majority of the missions has started with the aliens being peaceful, making people think if they were truly the enemy or not based on them asking "Why?" No one knew who was going to die back in the first 6 missions, the Vampire escapade and Catastrophe were easier to guess who would die since it was blatant *war*. I guess we just have differing opinions on how we view predictions.



I didn't say we knew who would die. Just that it came as no surprise whatsoever when they did, because the manga destroyed its own shock value by overusing the mass deaths. It became boring and repetitive.


> As for the question about the plot, we have no definite answer. All we know is that there is no heaven, hell, or God in the manga. When you die, you're gone and certain individuals are cloned for some reason to be used as soldiers in missions to eradicate "aliens"
> 
> Then theres questions like these which would make the vague forming plot easier to define.
> 
> ...



Uh, when a series runs for years and you have to ask so many questions about what the plot could be, that is not a good thing. It shows just how the story really is going absolutely no where, and it's just poor writing?


----------



## RamzaBeoulve (Jan 19, 2011)

Danchou said:


> Togashi killed Netero, Kaito, Pokkuro, Ponzu and several significant characters like Ubougin and Pakunoda.



Togashi, on the other hand, needs to fear his fans a bit more.


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## Narcissus (Jan 19, 2011)

bubble_lord said:


> Death doesn't make fiction better. Death in stories usually feels like a cheap way to add shock value. For example look what happened in the last Harry Potter novel which was an abortion of a book. I'm glad death isn't so frequent in Shonen and only when it is necessary.



I have to disagree, for the reasons Plat mentioned:


Platinum said:


> Deaths for the sake of deaths is stupid. It accomplishes nothing and serves no storytelling purpose.
> 
> But I also agree that having everyone live no matter how improbable serves no purpose as well and sucks all the tension and suspense out of a story. If you don't believe that people in a story are in danger it takes all the emotion out of the story. Some characters serve the story better by dying than living, the reverse is also true.
> 
> So I take a middle ground.



The deaths in the final Harry Potter novel was not the biggest problem it suffered from, and J.K. Rowling actually made good use of Sirius' death before that.


----------



## God Movement (Jan 19, 2011)

Wuzzman said:


> Except it didn't. *WB died off screen and most likely from a heart attack*. Ace death would have been remotely meaningful if it wasn't for the crap war arc surrounding it.
> 
> Most shounen authors have bad righting on their side. killing people left and right doesn't make you hard core. Jiryara's death in part 2 doesn't make kishi any less of a pussy. in fact the fact that his murder gets a pardon pretty much pissed on the j-mans grave.



What       ?


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## Wuzzman (Jan 19, 2011)

God Movement said:


> What       ?



His "death" is a epilogue of the different shit he tanked without moving an inche. We don't see a killing blow, hell we don't even know what exactly killed. Just that he died, we should feel sad, it was "epic" and WB is true man (cue eye roll). As far as Oda's concerned he wrote a fancy heart attack.


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## Punpun (Jan 19, 2011)

Someone fail at reading. 

Guess who ?


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## Wuzzman (Jan 19, 2011)

Mandom said:


> Someone fail at reading.
> 
> Guess who ?



must i post every chap of one piece concerning WB death or will you take your troll else where.


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## Punpun (Jan 19, 2011)

If you didn't get it the first it's no use.


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## Hikawa (Jan 19, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> I have to disagree, for the reasons Plat mentioned:
> 
> 
> The deaths in the final Harry Potter novel was not the biggest problem it suffered from, and J.K. Rowling actually made good use of Sirius' death before that.



The final HP suffered from severe CHEESE. 

oh the cheesiness...


----------



## Superstars (Jan 19, 2011)

Wuzzman said:


> His "death" is a epilogue of the different shit he tanked without moving an inche. We don't see a killing blow, hell we don't even know what exactly killed. Just that he died, we should feel sad, it was "epic" and WB is true man (cue eye roll). As far as Oda's concerned he wrote a fancy heart attack.



In other words it was a weak death.


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## Neelon (Jan 19, 2011)

Here we go for the shitstorm


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jan 19, 2011)

Superstars said:


> In other words it was a weak death.



It was more a predictable death into a very weak arc


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 19, 2011)

Anyways whoever flames Gantz lacks good taste and brain cells....


----------



## MdB (Jan 19, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Anyways whoever flames Gantz lacks good taste and brain cells....


----------



## Superstars (Jan 19, 2011)

Bubi said:


> It was more a predictable death into a very weak arc



True......


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## Narcissus (Jan 19, 2011)

Hikawa said:


> The final HP suffered from severe CHEESE.
> 
> oh the cheesiness...



No, that wasn't what it suffered from either. It suffered because of the author's use of a plot device to give the main character a way out of an impossible situation, among a few other things. You don't know what you're talking about, so just stop talking.


GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Anyways whoever flames Gantz lacks good taste and brain cells....



Clearly you lack the ability to put forth an actual argument.


----------



## Hikawa (Jan 19, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Anyways whoever flames Gantz lacks good taste and brain cells....


Best post of this thread. I don't even care if he's trolling..


Narcissus said:


> No, that wasn't what it suffered from either. It suffered because of the author's use of a plot device to give the main character a way out of an impossible situation, among a few other things. You don't know what you're talking about, so just stop talking.
> 
> 
> Clearly you lack the ability to put forth an actual argument.



By "cheese", I was referring to how the final HP ended. And how I hate to admit I even read that lame book...so I DO know what I'm talking about. Stop hatin'.


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## Agmaster (Jan 19, 2011)

Medaka Box mangaka is a straight g who takes your tropes and spits on them.


----------



## Basilikos (Jan 19, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> Clearly you lack the ability to put forth an actual argument.


He's just trolling, you know.


----------



## Infinite Xero (Jan 20, 2011)

Lots of characters died in Death Note.


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## Superstars (Jan 20, 2011)

I thought Death Note was entertaining.


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## Basilikos (Jan 20, 2011)

Death Note started off quite well but then started to drag on needlessly IMO.


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## Narcissus (Jan 20, 2011)

Death Note was good up until after L died. It dragged on more than it needed to after that.


Hikawa said:


> By "cheese", I was referring to how the final HP ended. And how I hate to admit I even read that lame book...so I DO know what I'm talking about. Stop hatin'.



No, you really don't. You're terrible at analyzing fiction and it shows. You gave an awful reason for liking Gantz, and cannot seem to give a valid reason for what was wrong with the final HP Book.

You're wasting my time.


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## The810kid (Jan 20, 2011)

I love how peopel says Naruto doesn't kill any good guys when Jiraiya,Asuma, Chiyo, Sarutobi all are dead and haven't been revived (well does being a Zombie count in Chiyp and Azuma's cases?) Then Kakashi, Shizune, and Gaara all were dead temporarily. Whats even worse is some people try to give there precious one piece a pass over the wrong deaths. I mean I like one piece but to say the Going Merry counts as a death.


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## ichigeau (Jan 20, 2011)

Killer Bee said:


> Lots of characters died in Death Note.



but criminals..... criminals aren't *good guys* 

and for those who think shonen mangaka are soft cause they dont want to kill anny good guys.... i was just thinking about claymore.... especially at pieta... manny claymore got brutally killed.... most of them was random one but also important one that made an impact on the story....

how the fuck can he do this to my flora  
(and then start the flora joke like headspliter flora......)
heartless bastard


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 20, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> Clearly you lack the ability to put forth an actual argument.



Gantz has amazing character development just like Battle Royale it shows how people react in life and death situations. Every monster the Gantzers beat represents a part of the society. Onion mans - People who live like shit. Buddhas - People who turn to religion and there are other examples but Its been time since I ve reaD this theory about Oku's hidden messages in the manga. Also there are scenes like the one where alien dogs eat humans, and its fucking disturbing, but even this thing could be possible in a hypothetical universe and it makes you think a lot of stuff. 
In addition this manga shows different aspects of people relationships such as a the development of a beautiful friendship Kurono-Katou, people's obssesion with Love Reika and others..
And last but not Least, this manga has amazing action, including great battles and incredibly badass characters which make this manga outstanding.
There is a reason why it is one of the 3 best selling seinen series together with Vagabond and Berserk.
Its a fucking MASTERPIECE.
So yes whoever puts Gantz together with Air Gear and Bleach obviously lacks good taste and brain cells.
Gantz haters GTFO.

Oh and Death note never became a top tier manga because the mangakas had no vision to make an epic manga.


----------



## Hikawa (Jan 20, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Gantz has amazing character development just like Battle Royale it shows how people react in life and death situations. Every monster the Gantzers beat represents a part of the society. Onion mans - People who live like shit. Buddhas - People who turn to religion and there are other examples but Its been time since I ve reaD this theory about Oku's hidden messages in the manga. Also there are scenes like the one where alien dogs eat humans, and its fucking disturbing, but even this thing could be possible in a hypothetical universe and it makes you think a lot of stuff.
> In addition this manga shows different aspects of people relationships such as a the development of a beautiful friendship Kurono-Katou, people's obssesion with Love Reika and others..
> And last but not Least, this manga has amazing action, including great battles and incredibly badass characters which make this manga outstanding.
> There is a reason why it is one of the 3 best selling seinen series together with Vagabond and Berserk.
> ...





Great.


----------



## Level7N00b (Jan 20, 2011)

Basilikos said:


> Death Note started off quite well but then started to drag on needlessly IMO.



After L died, I kinda stopped paying attention.


----------



## Kei (Jan 20, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Gantz has amazing character development just like Battle Royale it shows how people react in life and death situations. Every monster the Gantzers beat represents a part of the society. Onion mans - People who live like shit. Buddhas - People who turn to religion and there are other examples but Its been time since I ve reaD this theory about Oku's hidden messages in the manga. Also there are scenes like the one where alien dogs eat humans, and its fucking disturbing, but even this thing could be possible in a hypothetical universe and it makes you think a lot of stuff.
> In addition this manga shows different aspects of people relationships such as a the development of a beautiful friendship Kurono-Katou, people's obssesion with Love Reika and others..
> And last but not Least, this manga has amazing action, including great battles and incredibly badass characters which make this manga outstanding.
> There is a reason why it is one of the 3 best selling seinen series together with Vagabond and Berserk.
> ...



 

You great great man!!!


----------



## Osiris (Jan 20, 2011)

Looking at sets in this thread makes me think of Alive-The Final Evolution. I think that might be my favorite manga. The author wasn't afraid to kill characters, but it didn't seem pointless. Except for the part when the Heart first appeared. Not sure all those people had to die, but whatevs. My favorite character ended up dying later.


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## Drakor (Jan 20, 2011)

I forgot every alien represented a human aspect revolving around todays society and an opposite form through the current Gantz members participating...didn't expect that from GaaraoftheDesert1, great post


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## The Doctor (Jan 21, 2011)

gantz more like gayntz


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## SageMaster (Jan 21, 2011)

Death Note dragged on for too long.

It was a great manga before you know who died.


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## DarkLordOfKichiku (Jan 21, 2011)

Well, in a sense, I think there is a certain amount of "softening" in there. But that can be said about everything these days 

Once upon a time, fairy tales were meant to scare children, because they often carried specific warnings. But these days they get edited so that the "good guys" can have a happy ending <_<.

Once upon a time. Hokuto no Ken was a shounen, whereas it today is classified as a Seinen. Speaks volymes about how the views about what's good and not good for children have changed...


----------



## Kellogem (Jan 21, 2011)

The810kid said:


> I love how peopel says Naruto doesn't kill any good guys when Jiraiya,Asuma, Chiyo, Sarutobi all are dead and haven't been revived (well does being a Zombie count in Chiyp and Azuma's cases?) Then Kakashi, Shizune, and Gaara all were dead temporarily. Whats even worse is some people try to give there precious one piece a pass over the wrong deaths. I mean I like one piece but to say the Going Merry counts as a death.



these were old and/or unimportant characters thought.
Chiyo and Asuma were secondary characters at best, Chiyo was introduced in the arc she died in and Asuma barely had screentime. Sarutobi and Jiraiya were old and you could see their death from a mile away.

I'd say only Jiraiya counts as a main good guy who was killed, and temporary death doesnt count. I'd like to see Kishi killing someone from the previous rookies, like Lee or Neji.

about Gantz, I dunno, I found it aberrant and characters acted absurdly. lots of rapists, sex maniacs, needless gore and sex and extra disguisting (but simetimes cool looking) monsters. its kind of amusing thought, but I wouldnt call it deep or anything like that. and I wonder, what did those bird aliens or the shapeshifting aliens represents (I only read bits and pieces)?
this is just my opinion.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 21, 2011)

Gantz was utter shit and deserved to get canceled



> Shonen mangaka are soft....



As oposed to what? Being hard?


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 21, 2011)

Gantz got 2 fucking Live action movies thats how awesome it is...


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## Banhammer (Jan 21, 2011)

Twilight has four. Must mean it is at least twice as good as Gants. Which everyone knows is ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) written backwards


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Jan 21, 2011)

Praising Gantz while having a Berserk-set? 

Something isnt right here...


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 21, 2011)

Berserk is great, Gantz is great, cant see the problem.


----------



## God Movement (Jan 21, 2011)

Berserk is great, Gantz is shit.


----------



## Thor (Jan 21, 2011)

Kubo killed Gin.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 21, 2011)

God Movement said:


> Berserk is great, Gantz is shit.



Couldnt expect you to acknowledge a masterpiece, cause thats ypour level


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jan 21, 2011)

Thor Odinson said:


> Kubo killed Gin.



This was nothing compared to what happened to Yammy sama, that was a tough blow


----------



## God Movement (Jan 21, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Couldnt expect you to acknowledge a masterpiece, cause thats ypour level



be quiet      .


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 21, 2011)

God Movement said:


> be quiet      .



Oh you are ordering around and shit now.
Do that shit at your home to your mom, not here 
Get some brains and taste and come again, for now GTFO...
You cant even support your statements.


----------



## Kei (Jan 21, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> Twilight has four. Must mean it is at least twice as good as Gants. Which everyone knows is ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) written backwards



Please don't say that, because the level of Twilight and Gantz is like comparing shit to pure bliss, Gantz being pure bliss because I rather see someone cry over watching their best friend die over the Twilight saga. This is my personal opinion of course, I enjoy Gantz, I truthfully don't give a blue fuck about what you like. Nor will I take my time out to bash it like you do. So what ever the blue shit you taking stop, this is the internet.


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## Platinum (Jan 21, 2011)

Gantz is basically the twilight of senien manga .


----------



## Kei (Jan 21, 2011)

You just here to piss me off...But


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Jan 21, 2011)

Keiichi Song said:


> You just here to piss me off...But







GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Couldnt expect you to acknowledge a masterpiece


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Jan 21, 2011)

Whos that btw


----------



## Kei (Jan 21, 2011)

Fuck yeah persona 3


----------



## 8 (Jan 21, 2011)

GANTZ certainly has some flaws. main issue i have is how almost every other guy turns out to be a complete asshole, or how the bad characteristics of humans is overdone to the point where it become corny. but nothing is perfect, overall its very enjoyable and one of my favorite manga.


----------



## Punpun (Jan 21, 2011)

I find Gantz to be quite egregious..

Oka's opinion on teacher being the worst of it.


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## MdB (Jan 21, 2011)

Keiichi Song said:


> Please don't say that, because the level of Twilight and Gantz is like comparing shit to pure bliss, Gantz being pure bliss because I rather see someone cry over watching their best friend die over the Twilight saga. This is my personal opinion of course, I enjoy Gantz, I truthfully don't give a blue fuck about what you like. Nor will I take my time out to bash it like you do. So what ever the blue shit you taking stop, this is the internet.



You seem to be quite upset for someone ''not giving a fuck.'' Oh, and Gantz is shit.


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## PPsycho (Jan 21, 2011)

Isn't Gantz a seinen? Why is it even discussed in this thread?


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## Basilikos (Jan 21, 2011)

PPsycho said:


> Isn't Gantz a seinen? Why is it even discussed in this thread?


Because taste in fiction = serious business.


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## Gilgamesh (Jan 21, 2011)

Gantz is soulless pseudo porn garbage


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## Hikawa (Jan 21, 2011)

PPsycho said:


> Isn't Gantz a seinen? Why is it even discussed in this thread?



It's because it's so awesome, it gets brought up even in a thread about shounens.


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## urca (Jan 21, 2011)

well,theres dai no daiboken,the character is avan,the character is supposed to be dead at the start of the series,he took a blow and used a deadly magic that is supposed to kill him so the enemy can die,in the end,he reappeared after 200 chapters or something,<_<'


----------



## StrawHatCrew (Jan 21, 2011)

Didn't read like the last 4 pages so it was possibly already mention, but here it is again if it was lol.

Oda killed Ace and Whitebeard.... in the same arc!! And at the end, he killed Sabo during the flashback! Oda is hardcore rofl.


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## Hikawa (Jan 21, 2011)

StrawHatCrew said:


> Didn't read like the last 4 pages so it was possibly already mention, but here it is again if it was lol.
> 
> Oda killed Ace and Whitebeard.... in the same arc!! And at the end, he killed Sabo during the flashback! *Oda is hardcore *rofl.



     .


----------



## Eisenheim (Jan 21, 2011)

So OP likes mangaka who are hardcore.


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## Hikawa (Jan 21, 2011)

Eisenheim said:


> So OP likes mangaka who are hardcore.



      .


----------



## Abigail (Jan 22, 2011)

Gantz is shit.


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## Hikawa (Jan 22, 2011)

Abigail said:


> Gantz is shit.





you guys are flaming gantz really bad. but you don't see me flaming stupid Yu-gioh now do you?


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## King of heaven (Jan 22, 2011)

People have different taste , some like  death in their stories others don't .

Simple as that.


----------



## Neelon (Jan 22, 2011)

Gantz is gutter trash.


----------



## MdB (Jan 22, 2011)

King of heaven said:


> People have different taste , some like  death in their stories others don't .
> 
> Simple as that.



And some like good storytelling. 

Simple as that.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 22, 2011)

And some have the taste and the education to realise good storytelling.


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## Judge Fudge (Jan 22, 2011)

Going back on topic, I think death shouldn't be dealt with as lightly as OP believes. The body count doesn't necessarily changes the quality of the manga, the manga is still shit only now you have dead characters. I thought the deaths we got in Naruto were done well to some extent, though some like Asuma I thought Kishimoto was trying too hard to make us care about an unimportant side character, Jiraiya's was really well done and even "fake deaths" like Neji, Chouji, Hinata and Kakashi might of been good if he'd pull it through but in the end Naruto is not that type of story. 

As much as I loved One Piece and there have been numerous occasions where the drama hit the right cord, Ace and Whitebeard's death were not well done and it's mostly due to the fact that their roles in the story were sparse up untill the war arc and I ended up caring more about Luffy's reaction than the actual deaths of the characters (which might have been the point anyways). 

I agree with Bleach but I doubt there's a character in the cast that would make me feel anything sort of emotion if they died, I'll say that Tousen and Nnoitra's deaths were well done due to their respective themes if not arbitrary. In the end deaths don't make a good story, it's how it's done that makes it worthwhiled, hell I felt more remorse when Hughes died in FMA than any character in One Piece, Naruto and Bleach.

Edit: Also anyone who's not reading Gantz for the shock value at this point is retarded and even that's getting minimal since Oku has gotten soft these days and is actually "trying" to write a story


----------



## Doom85 (Jan 22, 2011)

To me, while you don't necessarily have to kill off someone to have an air of suspense, if you make it TOO obvious no one will die then all suspense goes out the window and I partially lose a reason to give a darn about the conflict at hand (*COUGH* Bleach *COUGH*). In Naruto and One Piece, while the main characters are obviously safe, there is that slight worry for various supporting characters that I like, so that added element of suspense helps the conflict. Other shonen like Kekkaishi and of course Death Note take it even further. Of course, seinen titles and anime like various Gundam series are able to push this suspense even further because presumably their editors/executives are less controlling over the story. Live-action titles like LOST, 24, Sopranos, anything Joss Whedon does, etc., has this nice level of suspense as well. Now maybe some people out there don't like any suspense in their conflict whatsoever, but then I question why they're enjoying the so-called conflict in the first place. They might as well be watching slice-of-life anime (which I do enjoy some, but that's not really relevant), it'd be the same diff.

As for kids not being able to handle death, please. I watched BeastWars/Machines right from the beginning when I was 10, and that shit got brutal on character deaths. Besides, kids in Japan are less "protected" in terms of what they read/watch compared to most kids in the US or elsewhere. Hell, Gundam is considered a "family show" in Japan. You're telling me the kid who can handle watching the tons of deaths in the Gundam 00 S1 finale would just have an emotional breakdown if Kakashi died? I'm calling BS.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Jan 22, 2011)

It goes both ways really, if you use death constantly as a scapegoat than it loses it's impact and if you "deux ex machina" all the time it lessens the impact of death. All and all it depends on the context of the story I don't expect to have a blood massacre in Yotsuba but I do expect some sort of tension and suspense in a battle oriented series like Bleach.


----------



## Akatora (Jan 22, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> And some have the taste and the education to realise good storytelling.




and some think they do


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 22, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Gantz has amazing character development just like Battle Royale it shows how people react in life and death situations. Every monster the Gantzers beat represents a part of the society. Onion mans - People who live like shit. Buddhas - People who turn to religion and there are other examples but Its been time since I ve reaD this theory about Oku's hidden messages in the manga. Also there are scenes like the one where alien dogs eat humans, and its fucking disturbing, but even this thing could be possible in a hypothetical universe and it makes you think a lot of stuff.
> In addition this manga shows different aspects of people relationships such as a the development of a beautiful friendship Kurono-Katou, people's obssesion with Love Reika and others..
> And last but not Least, this manga has amazing action, including great battles and incredibly badass characters which make this manga outstanding.
> There is a reason why it is one of the 3 best selling seinen series together with Vagabond and Berserk.
> ...



Nothing you just described is deep or good story telling. It's simplistic drivel that is told in a horrible manner.

Try more trolling.


Banhammer said:


> Twilight has four. Must mean it is at least twice as good as Gants. Which everyone knows is ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) written backwards



Now _this_ was a nice counter. Good job Ban. 


Hikawa said:


> It's because it's so awesome, it gets brought up even in a thread about shounens.



No, it got brought up because you tried to claim it as a good manga because of its mass killings. A statement which then got shot to hell by the people in this thread.


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## SasuOna (Jan 22, 2011)

Gantz is one of the better Seinen manga if you think its horrible for the amount of shock value present in the deaths then your wrong and also operating under a double standard since I can't think of a single Seinen manga that doesn't have shock deaths and gratuitous sex.

A more just complaint was that you couldn't understand the plot since its addressed as little as possible.

So in conclusion once again you can like something or hate something but your opinions about it are not fact.


----------



## Platinum (Jan 22, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> And some have the taste and the education to realise good storytelling.



Are you honestly trying to claim Gantz is high brow reading that only the sophisticated and learned can truly understand?


----------



## Neelon (Jan 22, 2011)

SasuOna said:


> *Gantz is one of the better Seinen manga *if you think its horrible for the amount of shock value present in the deaths then your wrong and also operating under a double standard since I can't think of a single Seinen manga that doesn't have shock deaths and gratuitous sex.
> 
> A more just complaint was that you couldn't understand the plot since its addressed as little as possible.
> 
> So in conclusion once again you can like something or hate something but your opinions about it are not fact.



.jpg

But I remember you were that guy who thought Fairy tail was a great manga so...I lol'ed even harder

Gantz's plot is even less deep and complicated than fucking Hannah Montana's


----------



## SasuOna (Jan 22, 2011)

Neelon said:


> Gantz's plot is even less deep and complicated than fucking Hannah Montana's



I never said it was deep in the first place but I can see that the storytelling as basic as it is, is too complicated for you to get a grasp of which of course leads you to bring up things that even if it were true wouldn't make it any less of a manga.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 22, 2011)

As if Berserk which is loved by everyone doesnt have sex and wtf moments with insest, loli love etc...for godsake Gantz show the true side of Japan and yes it is one of the best seinen manga.


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## SasuOna (Jan 22, 2011)

No you'd be a fool think Berserk is classy reading. Its entertaining and has a great story nothing more. 
If anything I would compare it with Alan Moore's Neonomicon series, on one hand its Alan Moore but its also Alan Moore doing Lovecraft rape mythos.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Jan 22, 2011)

SasuOna said:


> Gantz is one of the better Seinen manga






SasuOna said:


> if you think its horrible for the amount of shock value present in the deaths then your wrong and also operating under a double standard since I can't think of a single Seinen manga that doesn't have shock deaths and gratuitous sex.


You need to read more manga, better yet don't make an assumption that the few seinen titles you've read make up the majority. Gantz is pure exploitation at it's finest but it's merit in anything other than sex and violence comparable to the works of Kazuo Koike, Ryoichi Ikegami, and Go Nagai the only difference is that neither of them try to hide the fact that trash is trash like Oku does.


SasuOna said:


> A more just complaint was that you couldn't understand the plot since its addressed as little as possible.


The problem wasn't that nobody could follow the plot, the problem is the plot just started to resurface after a series of half assed execution through a 1/4 of the manga's run 


SasuOna said:


> So in conclusion once again you can like something or hate something but your opinions about it are not fact.


So pretty much everything you've posted pointless


----------



## Punpun (Jan 22, 2011)

SasuOna said:


> Gantz is one of the better Seinen manga.
> So in conclusion once again you can like something or hate something but your opinions about it are not fact.





.. Oh God. 

No, not even close. Your egregious talk is an insult to my egregious person.

You should feel ashamed to compare Gantz to the like of Samura, 
Urasawa or Inio..

Negged.


----------



## Basilikos (Jan 22, 2011)

SasuOna said:


> So in conclusion once again you can like something or hate something but your opinions about it are not fact.


I've never read a single page of Gantz so I have no comments on it.

Though I can at least say that I agree with this part.


----------



## MdB (Jan 22, 2011)

SasuOna said:


> Gantz is one of the better Seinen manga if you think its horrible for the amount of shock value present in the deaths then your wrong and also operating under a double standard since I can't think of a single Seinen manga that doesn't have shock deaths and gratuitous sex.
> 
> A more just complaint was that you couldn't understand the plot since its addressed as little as possible.
> 
> So in conclusion once again you can like something or hate something but your opinions about it are not fact.



''You're all wrong because I say so'' is what this amounts to. If you can't name any manga for adults that doesn't revel itself in silly shock value to the point of it hampering the narration, then you clearly haven't read much manga (aimed at a much older demographic) at all.

Also, the statement that we operate on double standards is completely baseless, and stupid to boot.


----------



## SasuOna (Jan 22, 2011)

You do realize even the worst seinen like Fire Candy can still be compared to something like Monster or 20th century boys and you would still have the same level of trash storytelling elements in between all three. no matter how developed one series is as long as it contains those elements its still in essence glorifying trash.

A mature story can be more than being guided by those themes and trying to shock people but at the same time once you do it more than once it opens the comparison to those very same manga.


----------



## lambda (Jan 22, 2011)

The fuck? Where's the ultraviolence and gratuitous sex in 20th century boys and Monster? Stop talking out of your ass.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 22, 2011)

I cant believe people are flaming and flaming Gantz because they cant understand it.
Gantz proves why manga is considered art...


----------



## Evul Overload (Jan 23, 2011)

Wait a moment, there a seriously people in the world who consider Gantz GOOD? As in "really good"?

Oh my, Gantz is the Naruto of Seinen. Pretentious kindergarten philosophy and violence to please the pubertating masses who think that gore is a vivid story element. The same people probably argue that Berserk is so good, because "lol rape so epic XD. Dark fantasy so special and exciting lol". No, it's not. Berserk and Vagabond are good because they feature realistic character interactions, good world building and a coherent plot. Gantz on the other hand, features nothing like this. In fact, it is one of the most clicheed pieces of garbage I've been reading for a long time. The only thing that is remarkable besides the pseudo-deep, fan-pandering-in-reality plot is the art. And drawing with the help of digital methods isn't exactly something I would call a "masterpiece" when the other two strong selling Seinen have authors who are doing this with their bare hands and dedication. It's just like Bastard!!, except that Bastard!! doesn't take itself seriously and doesn't pretend to be a psychological masterpiece.

Guys who find Gantz good should read more Seinen. Although I doubt they actually care for most Seinen who aren't as "deep and thought provoking" as this piece of shit. In fact, most people who like Gantz I have met in Rl are Narutards who only recently discovered other genres/demographies outside Shounen. 

Just my 2 cents.

Oh, and did you notice that most of the people arguing for Gantz have rather low reputation? I wonder why...

And something on-topic:
Deadman Wonderland. A fast-paced, very gory Shounen manga, who doesn't take himself for more than it is in reality. A bloody freakshow you enjoy reading.


----------



## Kellogem (Jan 23, 2011)

Evul Overload said:


> And something on-topic:
> Deadman Wonderland. A fast-paced, very gory Shounen manga, who doesn't take himself for more than it is in reality. A bloody freakshow you enjoy reading.



DW is a shounen? .. I thought it is seinen, but not sure..


----------



## aionaraP (Jan 23, 2011)

lol at this page theres so much hatred. you guys all lack BLEACH


----------



## MdB (Jan 23, 2011)

The concept behind the Idea of Evil is already more intelligent than anything from Gantz. 



aionaraP said:


> lol at this page theres so much hatred. you guys all lack BLEACH



Douchebag extraordinary.


----------



## aionaraP (Jan 23, 2011)

if im a doucebag then what are you then?


----------



## MdB (Jan 23, 2011)

Your jokes are terrible.


----------



## aionaraP (Jan 23, 2011)

lol i found another member here who takes manga way too seriously. if you find it terrible then it really proves you are too serious in life about mangas


----------



## God Movement (Jan 23, 2011)

What did he say in his post that even hints towards him "taking manga too seriously"?


----------



## MdB (Jan 23, 2011)

I dunno. That was one of the stupidest insults I've seen in a long ass time.


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jan 23, 2011)

aionaraP said:


> lol i found another member here who takes manga way too seriously. if you find it terrible then it really proves you are too serious in life about mangas



Imo a seinen is supposed to be taken seriously.
And even if it is "only" a shounen, if the story takes itself seriously then i can't overlook the flaws of its storyline, as otherwise i usually do with lighthearted stories like Kenichi or Beelzebub.


----------



## aionaraP (Jan 23, 2011)

> What did he say in his post that even hints towards him "taking manga too seriously"?



because of all the rage posts thats on this page and the previous ones apparently he is one of those who are like the 'preaching' type and like they all know things about manga and stuff. chill out

he cant even take a joke because hes way too serious about the thread and mangas lol


----------



## Punpun (Jan 23, 2011)

I love your logic.


----------



## MdB (Jan 23, 2011)

aionaraP said:


> because of all the rage posts thats on this page and the previous ones apparently he is one of those who are like the 'preaching' type and like they all know things about manga and stuff. chill out
> 
> he cant even take a joke because hes way too serious about the thread and mangas lol



Pointing out that offing everyone without any reason doesn't make something good is the equivalent of embittered rage? How? I wasn't aware that you can't say anything in a serious manner on the Internet. Furthermore, don't blame me that you suck at telling jokes. 

For someone asking others to chill out, you sure take this pretty seriously. Next time you may want to practice what you preach.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 23, 2011)

The way I see it, if you've put your time and effort into reading, watching, or playing anything, then you are well within your rights to give it serious criticism, on the internet or otherwise. If that criticism happens to be in a more negative light, then that does not mean the person is raging.

This thread is actually a good example. Nearly everyone who said Gantz is not good gave good reasoning for it, while those who spoke in favor of it were either trolling or said nonsense like "EVERYONE DIES!!!111!!!"


----------



## SasuOna (Jan 23, 2011)

No everyone that has been critiquing Gantz has been complaining about things that have nothing to do with the plot or development any of the characters have received and is just coming off as whining about why they think their favorite manga is better than it. 

Don't be pretentious and act like you actually have a solid criticism or act like you have been critiquing it rationally when the majority of this thread all everyone has been doing is bitching about why they think_____________ manga is better than _________ .


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 23, 2011)

SasuOna said:


> No everyone that has been critiquing Gantz has been complaining about things that have nothing to do with the plot or development any of the characters have received and is just coming off as whining about why they think their favorite manga is better than it.
> 
> Don't be pretentious and act like you actually have a solid criticism or act like you have been critiquing it rationally when the majority of this thread all everyone has been doing is bitching about why they think_____________ manga is better than _________ .



Case in point.

Gantz was originally brought up because Hikawa claimed it to be a good manga because of the mass killings. Someone responded by telling him why that doesn't make it a good manga at all. Another Gantz fan later said the plot wasn't fully conceived yet, which is terrible considering how long the manga has been running.

GaaraoftheDesert1 has been trolling, and you, SasuOna, have been whining. So there really has not been a good case in favor of Gantz's criticism yet.

And yes, almost everyone in this thread has made solid criticisms against Gantz.


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## Kellogem (Jan 23, 2011)

^^actually lot of people just said "Gantz is shit" without solid criticisms 



God Movement said:


> Berserk is great, Gantz is shit.





Platinum said:


> Gantz is basically the twilight of senien manga .





MdB said:


> You seem to be quite upset for someone ''not giving a fuck.'' Oh, and Gantz is shit.





Raptor Diego said:


> Gantz is soulless pseudo porn garbage





Abigail said:


> Gantz is shit.





Neelon said:


> Gantz is gutter trash.


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## Punpun (Jan 23, 2011)

I love how people doesn't know the meaning of egregious.


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## Narcissus (Jan 23, 2011)

Kellögem said:


> ^^actually lot of people just said "Gantz is shit" without solid criticisms





Narcissus said:


> And yes, *almost everyone * in this thread has made solid criticisms against Gantz.



And MdB has given reason. While no one has given Gantz any real defense. Cut the crap


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## MdB (Jan 23, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> And MdB has given reason. While no one has given Gantz any real defense. Cut the crap



They have. 

You see, we're all uncultured apes with no grasp of the concept of true artistry. Gantz is art, much in the same vein as Paradise Lost or Dubliners. Come to think of it, this kind of hyperbolic bias is the second stupidest thing I've seen aside from the the idiot who claimed Naruto to have more merit than Ulysses.


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## aionaraP (Jan 23, 2011)

someone's having a monthly period here...


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## KazeYama (Jan 23, 2011)

How did this thread turn into a debate about Gantz? Especially when the thread is about killing main characters when one of the plot points of Gantz is that you can always bring someone back from the dead and currently there are 2 of the main character alive. Seems like a bad example of a "hardcore Manga". 

Also calling shounen mangaka soft at all is a bit of an oxymoron, they obviously can't kill people off willy nilly as shounen is supposed to have a positive uplifting overall them. I mean even Dragonball which is widely heralded as the best shounen series ever never actually permanently killed anyone.


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## Narcissus (Jan 24, 2011)

aionaraP said:


> someone's having a monthly period here...



Try some memes. Wit isn't your strong point.


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