# Juubito vs Prime Nagato, EMS Madara, Hashirama,BM Minato,SM Kabuto,MS Itachi,Tobirama



## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

Location: Same place where ninja alliance fought him

Starting distance: 400 meters

Intel: Both sides only know basic knowledge like chakra natures 

MindSet: cool for both sides but intent to kill

Clarification: everyone is living and prime

Restrictions: Kabuto can only summon edo 3rd Raikage and Lord Mu. Itachi can't use koto or izanami. Madara does not have nine tails.

Can team nagato win?


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## Gibbs (Feb 22, 2015)

Juubito gets Sealed via TotsukaContained via Chibaku Tensei
Soul ripped
Genjutsud
Decapitated


etc


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

> Genjutsud



Wrong.

But yeah - its probably too much for Juubito.


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## Gibbs (Feb 22, 2015)

SM Kabuto could genjutsu him.White rage. (It ensnared Itachi & Sasuke simultaneously)


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> SM Kabuto could genjutsu him.White rage. (It ensnared Itachi & Sasuke simultaneously)



I highly doubt it can work on Juubito.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2015)

Sasuke's Rinnegan can resist Mugen Tsukyomi, so genjutsu isn't working here.

 Still, Juubito loses here. 

 Prime Nagato might not even be needed for them to win.


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## Gibbs (Feb 22, 2015)

Sasuke's rinnegan is a natural occurring one and his possession. Juubito's was just transplanted. and it wasn't his power.

Also, Juubito wasn't show to be capable of Mugen Tsukiyomi.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 22, 2015)

Wat? 

Jubito locks them in the Sun Barrier and they don't even have a single way to escape from Quad Jubidamas, let alone without any knowledge on Onmyoton.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 22, 2015)

Juubito puts them in the Six Yang Seal and kills them all with a Quadruple Bijudama.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2015)

BM Minato gives them V1 Cloaks and with that chakra connection, helps them avoid the Four Juubidamas ....


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 22, 2015)

Too much firepower for Jubito to handle. Living Blind Madara canonically had the ability to absorb Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra, meaning we have Senjutsu PS much larger and more powerful than Sasukes, with Senjutsu Buddha Statue, BM Minato & Tobirama to redirect attacks to his blindside and a possible Chibaku Tensei aided by Minato sharing his illustrious chakra with Nagato. 

They kill him with moderate difficulty, BM Minato gets him with Shiki Fujin by warping him directly to him, tagged Mu & 3rd Raikage can act as devices to tag him even though they cannot heal from Jubito's attacks, they are indeed dead and will follow the orders of Kabuto accordingly.

I'd imagine Madara's PS, Hashirama's Buddha or Minato's BM are very capable of making contact with him at some point, either that or his chakra, which is generally the same thing as tagging him. One of them touches his black chakras, as long as they are tagged (Madara/Hashirama) and their wood/PS makes contact with Jubito's chakras, Minato/Tobirama can switch places with Jubito or outright teleport Jubito directly to them, allowing their team to land a final blow away from his black chakras (and that means Human Path, Shiki Fujin, Wood Dragon, Senjutsu PS slash or Totsuka sealing). This is true for the Edos as well, who can move directly into Jubito's black chakras, make contact with them, and it will allow Minato/Tobirama to teleport Jubito for that duration.

As far as the Yin Seal barrier being effective in trapping- it won't. Nagato Pretas through one wall and they escape it. Not that it matters, Minato already canonically warped a full powered Juubidama in base, the blast wave is directed entirely back at Jubito with the aid of multiple bunshin sustaining barrier holes. On top of that, CST/PS slashes/Bijjudama firing, then standing behind V2 Manda, PS, Wood Human, BM Minato's avatar enhanced by Yata Mirror, Itachi's Susano and then Nagato manifesting Preta Path, they have a relatively decent chance of lasting through that attack.

All things considered, they can simply hop into V2 Manda's mouth and burrow below the barrier and arguably the blast radius outright.

Jubito is not winning.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 22, 2015)

Prime Nagato
EMS Madara
Hashirama
BM Minato
SM Kabuto
MS Itachi
Tobirama

Obito gets jail raped... 

Jubito's only hope would be quad nuking the lot with _Juubidama_ + _Musekiyōjin_, but that backfires with Minato & Tobirama on the field as per canon.

Except this time you have the above lot with V1 Chakra cloaks as apposed to fodder alliance. Now we have people like Hashirama, Kabuto & Nagato having justu than can bypass _Onmyoton as either there intangible or have Sage Chakra inside of them... amped by Kurama chakra to boot

Oh and this is before we factor in the S/T tag team duo helping team nuke land there K/O shots_


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 22, 2015)

^ Other than BM Minato, Juubito outright just blitzes everyone before they even know he moves. He's on a far higher speed and power tier than everyone on this list.


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## ARGUS (Feb 22, 2015)

Juubito gets clowned here, 

 -- madara steals nagatos rinnegan, and gets some of hashiramas  SM chakra to gain immense power, whilst minato puts every one on his team on steroids and multiplies monsters like madara and hashiramas capacity by 3x at the very least, 

 -- tobirama and minato teleporting them out of his barrier with FTG, to prevent them from getting TBB'd, along with powered SS, rikudo PS, and minato raping him to oblivion


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## ARGUS (Feb 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ^ Other than BM Minato, Juubito outright just blitzes everyone before they even know he moves. He's on a far higher speed and power tier than everyone on this list.



Tobirama reacted to Juubito, and even tagged him 
SM hashiramas reactions >>> Tobiramas, so he reacts him with ease, 

sasukes choku tomo is the same as madaras, and he was able to track juubito just fine, 
madaras reactions are abve sasukes and has the same choku tomo so he does it more effectively

the only ones who are certainly to get blitzed are itachi, kabuto, and possibly nagato
characters like madara and hashirama react to him more easier and effficiently in comparison to naruto and sasuke


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 22, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama reacted to Juubito, and even tagged him
> SM hashiramas reactions >>> Tobiramas, so he reacts him with ease,


SM Hashirama has zero reaction feats. SM Madara who is a sensor in and out of his stolen Sage Mode, while Hashirama is only a sensor within Sage Mode, so Madara's sensing abilities were greatly increased.

Tobirama tagged Juubito...after being torn apart. And that was first form Juubito, not second.


> sasukes choku tomo is the same as madaras, and he was able to track juubito just fine,


He only did so after much trial and error, and Juubito was still basically dicking around.


> madaras reactions are abve sasukes and has the same choku tomo so he does it more effectively


Madara has shown no reactions that put him able to fight a serious Juubi Jin.


> the only ones who are certainly to get blitzed are itachi, kabuto, and possibly nagato
> characters like madara and hashirama react to him more easier and effficiently in comparison to naruto and sasuke


Naruto had to enhanced Sasuke so he could track Juubito, and Naruto has TWO methods of sensing (evil and chakra) which Madara and Hashirama lacked which allowed him to somewhat keep up.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ^ Other than BM Minato, Juubito outright just blitzes everyone before they even know he moves. He's on a far higher speed and power tier than everyone on this list.



Um every single person listed has reactionary feats in the same ball park as Tobirama (who though physically blitzed was fast enough to tag Juubito) so unless this is "perfected" Jubito (which the OP didn't specify) he gets god stomped in his initial form

Please explain to me how Obito deals with a S/T wrapping V1 powered Shinjusenuno'o, backed up by V1 powered Nagato & Kabuto spamming _Shinra Tensei_ & SM techniques (of which both can bypass _Onmyoton_) who are also trolling with their own S/T user

If this is IC, Obito dies within minutes before he can escalate the fight in his favor


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ^ Other than BM Minato, Juubito outright just blitzes everyone before they even know he moves. He's on a far higher speed and power tier than everyone on this list.


400m start distance with 2 FTG users who displayed reactions equal if not greater than his speed caliber (Minato clearly held his own against Jubito and was literally pressuring him + Tobirama tagged him in a weaker Edo state in CQC), a Chou Shinra Tensei user & three megazords, he isn't blitzing any of them.

Minato alone can contest and block Jubito all day long in BM (Bijuu Rasengan), if not KCM or even base (Truth Seeker level reactions). A defensive-minded Minato warped a full powered Juubidama, he could easily pressure Jubito into focusing solely on him as he warps around him in a magical fashion. 

Even Edo Hiruzen partially avoided him in CQC. And that's close quarter combat, not 400m spread combat. 

(possible Senjutsu) PS, Hashirama's Wood Hands, Dragon, Human & Buddha, Bijuu Mode Minato, Chou Shinra Tensei ~ 400m distance. No, no possible way he's blitzing anyone here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 23, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Um every single person listed has reactionary feats in the same ball park as Tobirama (who though physically blitzed was fast enough to tag Juubito) so unless this is "perfected" Jubito (which the OP didn't specify) he gets god stomped in his initial form


Tobirama tagged an unperfected Obito after he was turned into a plate of paper sashimi, only surviving since he was an Edo Tensei. If Tobirama was alive...yeah, death instantly.


> Please explain to me how Obito deals with a S/T wrapping V1 powered Shinjusenuno'o, backed up by V1 powered Nagato & Kabuto spamming _Shinra Tensei_ & SM techniques (of which both can bypass _Onmyoton_) who are also trolling with their own S/T user


...Minato can't give the V1 shrouds to Nagato and Kabuto. Naruto only can due to having Uzumaki blood + having Kurama sealed inside him since birth. There's a reason why Kurama said his chakra sharing completely surpassed Minato.

As for Shinsusenju and Perfect Susano'o? Quadruple Jubi Bijudama plus Six Yang Formation Barrier. Without Naruto there, Minato will be unable to teleport everyone out.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 23, 2015)

> Tobirama tagged an unperfected Obito after he was turned into a plate of paper sashimi, only surviving since he was an Edo Tensei. If Tobirama was alive...yeah, death instantly.


Tobirama was a weaker version than himself, both Madara & Tobirama admitted this. On top of that, he literally physically put his hand on him two times while he was in Perfect Form (when he handed his exploding Truth Seeker Back, and when he swapped places with KCM Minato). 



> ...Minato can't give the V1 shrouds to Nagato and Kabuto. Naruto only can due to having Uzumaki blood + having Kurama sealed inside him since birth. There's a reason why Kurama said his chakra sharing completely surpassed Minato.


This is partially true, however, he can still give them a large portion of pure chakra. He's shown the ability to split massive amounts of chakra up nearly instantly and he was good enough to instantly transfer 50% Kurama into Black Zetsu. 



> As for Shinsusenju and Perfect Susano'o? Quadruple Jubi Bijudama plus Six Yang Formation Barrier. Without Naruto there, Minato will be unable to teleport everyone out.


He doesn't need to. Preta Path allows them to walk directly through it, V2 Manda burrows directly under it with everyone in it's mouth, Kabuto himself can burrow beneath the barrier by transforming into a snake outright, simply using his Hiding Like a Mole technique which he had mastered even in Part 1, or through a snake summon of his choice, and then Minato teleports them directly to Kabuto.

Outside of this, they literally have multiple top-tier durability techniques which include PS, Wood Human, Rash Gates, Bijuu Mode, Preta Path, V2 Manda, Yata Mirror / V3 Susano, Minato's Barrier technique (which teleported a massive Jubidama) and offensive power to lighten the blast damage (PS Slashes, Chou Shinra Tensei, Bijuudama/Bijuu Rasengan) before it even reaches them. So, strictly speaking, it's not impossible to suggest they can survive them outright if they collectively stand behind these techniques.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tobirama was a weaker version than himself, both Madara & Tobirama admitted this. On top of that, he literally physically put his hand on him two times while he was in Perfect Form (when he handed his exploding Truth Seeker Back, and when he swapped places with KCM Minato).


Tobirama, if he was alive, it would make no difference if he was at full power. Obito was flat out said to be stronger than Hashirama, Tobirama's superior. In his first form. and then blitzed Tobirama like nothing.

The only reason why he got Juubito's back was because he already had executed the technique.


> This is partially true, however, he can still give them a large portion of pure chakra. He's shown the ability to split massive amounts of chakra up nearly instantly and he was good enough to instantly transfer 50% Kurama into Black Zetsu.


No. He wouldn't be able to do that. Minato performed a specific technique for the Yin Kurama transfer, since he wasn't transferring Yin Kurama's chakra to Naruto, he was transferring Yin Kurama himself to him. Minato's chakra sharing is on an inferior level to Naruto's, the manga made that clear. 


> He doesn't need to. Preta Path allows them to walk directly through it, V2 Manda burrows directly under it with everyone in it's mouth, Kabuto himself can burrow beneath the barrier by transforming into a snake outright, simply using his Hiding Like a Mole technique which he had mastered even in Part 1, or through a snake summon of his choice, and then Minato teleports them directly to Kabuto.


I think the barrier covers chakra absorption (given Madara never tried and he has Preta Path too) and just digging out. The barrier is inescapable unless you're a Jubi Jin or have a Hiraishin tag out of it. 

Its funny how you think a doton (when we have dozens of Doton users in the manga) could escape the barrier when it was made clear it wasn't an option.


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## Ersa (Feb 23, 2015)

Eh, I think Four Suns Barrier and Quadruple Juubidama might be a bit much for these guys to handle.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tobirama was a weaker version than himself, both Madara & Tobirama admitted this. On top of that, he literally physically put his hand on him two times while he was in Perfect Form (when he handed his exploding Truth Seeker Back, and when he swapped places with KCM Minato).



 The first instance was done with a clone as well just to emphasize your point.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Eh, I think Four Suns Barrier and Quadruple Juubidama might be a bit much for these guys to handle.


Why has Juubi Obito been downgraded in terms of these things lately? Just a year ago, he was able to handle the likes of these shinobi, all at once, without getting a scratch. Now...people are arguing he loses.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Eh, I think Four Suns Barrier and Quadruple Juubidama might be a bit much for these guys to handle.



 Minato can just warp them outside of the barrier.


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## sabre320 (Feb 23, 2015)

Minato gives everyone kcm cloaks..hashirama madara and minato form a giant kyuubisussano amped by hashis senjutsu hashi forms a chou shinsensenju ..tobirama acts as teleporter...quad bijudama are warped and barrier trolled by minato..madara can take nagatos rinnegan for limbo...considering manga events the team wins but if obito uses all of his abilities and smartly he can still win


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## Kai (Feb 23, 2015)

Obito loses to these right combination of abilities. Without Six Paths senjutsu, either Hashirama or Naruto is essential for senjutsu output of this level and both teleporters are necessary for the barrier and bijuudama combo. 

If one is missing from either, Obito mops the floor with all of them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 23, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Minato gives everyone kcm cloaks..hashirama madara and minato form a giant kyuubisussano amped by hashis senjutsu hashi forms a chou shinsensenju ..tobirama acts as teleporter...quad bijudama are warped and barrier trolled by minato..madara can take nagatos rinnegan for limbo...considering manga events the team wins but if obito uses all of his abilities and smartly he can still win


Minata's chakra sharing is inferior to Naruto's so he isn't handing out cloaks to anyone, much less Kurama Chakra Mode Cloaks. EMS Madara doesn't have his Senju upgrades to handle the Rinnegan, so he leaves Nagato's Rinnegan where it is. Minato can only handle TWO Juubi Bijudama with his teleportation, there's still gonna be two left. 

The group can't win against Obito. Juubi Jins are just too strong for this group of shinobi.


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## Gibbs (Feb 23, 2015)

Minato warps two away, tobirama warps 1.

Hashirama uses Quintuple rashoman to change the trajectory of the last one up and out.
OR
Prime Nagato Preta's it away.

They survive.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 23, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> Minato warps two away, tobirama warps 1.
> 
> Hashirama uses Quintuple rashoman to change the trajectory of the last one up and out.
> OR
> ...


Hashirama's Quintuple Rashomon barely was able to redirect one of Kurama's Bijudama's...no redirection possible with a Juubi caliber Bijudama (just one of the smaller ones is on a far other level than even Kurama's super bijudama). Nagato can't Preta it, there's too much power in it.

No, they're nuked to hell man.

Hell, think about this. A serious Obito would imprison EVERYONE in a Six Yang Formation Barrier. Given the size (several dozen kilometers if not more), Minato and Tobirama would be unable to make their new tags in time and would be trapped.


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## sabre320 (Feb 23, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama reacted to Juubito, and even tagged him
> SM hashiramas reactions >>> Tobiramas, so he reacts him with ease,
> 
> sasukes choku tomo is the same as madaras, and he was able to track juubito just fine,
> ...



Um how are sm hashiramas reactions >>> to tobiramas tobirama was the one with the speed hype not hashi jesus... sm hashi was getting outdone by edo madara in cqc and pumped full of rods and had to use ninjutsus aka mokuton to bind him while tobirama was performing decently against sage madara..

and ems sasuke has much better feats then ems madara in cqc...edo madara could not react to lightened v1 ei ems sasuke was edging sage madara in cqc and drew first blood..madara has better reserves then sasuke ill give him that but that does not mean he is sasukes equal in everything..


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## sabre320 (Feb 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minata's chakra sharing is inferior to Naruto's so he isn't handing out cloaks to anyone, much less Kurama Chakra Mode Cloaks. EMS Madara doesn't have his Senju upgrades to handle the Rinnegan, so he leaves Nagato's Rinnegan where it is. Minato can only handle TWO Juubi Bijudama with his teleportation, there's still gonna be two left.
> 
> The group can't win against Obito. Juubi Jins are just too strong for this group of shinobi.



UMM what minato was able to give people chakra shrouds and share chakra just not to the same extent as naruto e.g thousands of people..minato with one arm was capable of teleporting two juubidama it was explicitly stated he was unable to use space time barrier with one arm..minatos first tactic in every battle is to leave markers a great distance away as a safe point e.g kunai in the sea he does this everytime and can be accomplished by a kcm clone shunshining away..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 23, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> UMM what minato was able to give people chakra shrouds and share chakra just not to the same extent as naruto e.g thousands of people..minato with one arm was capable of teleporting two juubidama it was explicitly stated he was unable to use space time barrier with one arm..minatos first tactic in every battle is to leave markers a great distance away as a safe point e.g kunai in the sea he does this everytime and can be accomplished by a kcm clone shunshining away..


That was when Minato was teamed up with Naruto. Naruto even reactivated the cloaks he sent. Alone, he wasn't able to do that. Again, Kurama made it clear that Naruto was the only one capable of doing such a feat due to being a Uzumaki and having Kurama sealed inside him since birth. Hence why Kurama said Naruto's chakra sharing surpassed Minato's.

Minato thought he could handle two...and remember, that tag was destroyed by the first Bijudama he got out. Now? Juubi Obito makes the barrier immediately...thus NO TAGS OUTSIDE THE BARRIER, thus no teleportation. Minato's first instinct IS to make tags everywhere, but against Juubi Obito, with his superior speed, he can't get it off before this due to the sheer size and scale.


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## sabre320 (Feb 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That was when Minato was teamed up with Naruto. Naruto even reactivated the cloaks he sent. Alone, he wasn't able to do that. Again, Kurama made it clear that Naruto was the only one capable of doing such a feat due to being a Uzumaki and having Kurama sealed inside him since birth. Hence why Kurama said Naruto's chakra sharing surpassed Minato's.
> 
> Minato thought he could handle two...and remember, that tag was destroyed by the first Bijudama he got out. Now? Juubi Obito makes the barrier immediately...thus NO TAGS OUTSIDE THE BARRIER, thus no teleportation. Minato's first instinct IS to make tags everywhere, but against Juubi Obito, with his superior speed, he can't get it off before this due to the sheer size and scale.



at that time kurama did not even know that minato was a perfect jichuriki and had mastered his chakra hence him being surprised even minato!! he though only naruto had perfectly synchronized with the kyuubi we later found that to be untrue as minato achieved bm perfect synchronization..uzumaki blood enhances the amount of chakra and the quantity of chakra he can mold and distribute not that it affects chakra distribution..he further elaborated minato used this very method to put his chakra into naruto and you think he cant do this to others...he cant distribute chakra to the same extent as naruto sure but for a few individuals it is very feasible..

minato can handle more then two bijudama he explicitely stated he can handle two because he has one arm hence him being not able to use space time barrier...minato is very capable of sending a bm or kcm clone to shunshin away and throw a kunai before the barrier is erect and not to mention space time barrier was never shown to require markers..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 24, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> at that time kurama did not even know that minato was a perfect jichuriki and had mastered his chakra hence him being surprised even minato!! he though only naruto had perfectly synchronized with the kyuubi we later found that to be untrue as minato achieved bm perfect synchronization..uzumaki blood enhances the amount of chakra and the quantity of chakra he can mold and distribute not that it affects chakra distribution..he further elaborated minato used this very method to put his chakra into naruto and you think he cant do this to others...he cant distribute chakra to the same extent as naruto sure but for a few individuals it is very feasible..


sabre, its not being a Perfect Jinchuriki that is required for that transfer technique that Naruto uses. If it was, Killer Bee would be chakra sharing Gyuki's chakra. Naruto alone is the only one who can share the chakra and produce a V1 cloak due to having Yang Kurama sealed inside him all his life.

Minato didn't even know something like that could be done until NARUTO did it. And if he could-why didn't he transfer chakra to Kakashi to help fight Black Zetsu?


> minato can handle more then two bijudama he explicitely stated he can handle two because he has one arm hence him being not able to use space time barrier...minato is very capable of sending a bm or kcm clone to shunshin away and throw a kunai before the barrier is erect and not to mention space time barrier was never shown to require markers..


Again, he's not going to get the chance. The barrier will be up by the time he tries to get the markers out.


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## Ashi (Feb 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> BM Minato gives them V1 Cloaks and with that chakra connection, helps them avoid the Four Juubidamas ....



Except he doesn't know how to do that


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## Kyu (Feb 24, 2015)

Kyuubi Minato is the fastest on team two and he's incapable of mounting an offense without getting eviscerated.


Jew should wreck.


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## ARGUS (Feb 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> SM Hashirama has zero reaction feats. SM Madara who is a sensor in and out of his stolen Sage Mode, while Hashirama is only a sensor within Sage Mode, so Madara's sensing abilities were greatly increased.



No, thats not how it works, 
madara in his edo form was physically blitzed by ligtened Ay and couldnt track him until he landed his aggravated rock fist, which i remind you takes time to do, since Ays arm needed to be heavier for that to happen 

yet when madara got only a tiny portion of hashiramas senjutsu chakra, he had the reactions to sense FTG, and had the physical means to evade the oncoming attack as well, 
so hashirama who has the same speed as madara, same reactions and same SM only more portion of it, would react to Juubito just fine,  
Hashirama is a sensor in his base form as well, only not as adept as tobirama, 

and that whole sensor in and out argument really holds no weight 
not when it was only hashiramas SM that allowed madara to do such thing 
other factors were minisucle 



> Tobirama tagged Juubito...after being torn apart. And that was first form Juubito, not second.


Umm that was in-order to land a mark on him, 
however once juubito was marked, tobirama tagged him not once, but 5 times,
and out of that, 2 times was V2 Juubi, so evenn that isnt helping your case

tagging someone when you cant react to him makes no sense whatsoever 



> He only did so after much trial and error, and Juubito was still basically dicking around.


He still did that, no reason to deny it 



> Madara has shown no reactions that put him able to fight a serious Juubi Jin.


In a CQC he would lose, sure, 
is that all that madara has? no
but does that mean he would get blitzed? certainly no, 
not when an inferior choku tomo was tracking him, so madara does that just fine 
and when sasuke even managed to tag him with his inferior construct, madara who has superior reactions, superior construct and superior precog would tag him much easier



> Naruto had to enhanced Sasuke so he could track Juubito, and Naruto has TWO methods of sensing (evil and chakra) which Madara and Hashirama lacked which allowed him to somewhat keep up.


No this is all a baseless claim that needs proof, 
getting kyuubi chakra only affected the power of his susanoo, it doesn just magically grant yuo justus that you dont have, 

sasuke had a straight tomo before recieving teh cloak and once he and naruto adapted to juubitos speed, they both were tracking him just fine, 

base hashirama most likely has the same reactions as EMS madara, who can track juubtio, seeing how they are on par with each other on every single thing,

give him SM and hashirama gets to having the best reactions for a non god shinobi, alongside RT madara ofc, who is up there solely due to hashiramas SM


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 24, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> No, thats not how it works,
> madara in his edo form was physically blitzed by ligtened Ay and couldnt track him until he landed his aggravated rock fist, which i remind you takes time to do, since Ays arm needed to be heavier for that to happen
> 
> yet when madara got only a tiny portion of hashiramas senjutsu chakra, he had the reactions to sense FTG, and had the physical means to evade the oncoming attack as well,
> ...


SM Hashirama has zero reaction feats. Absolutely none. Madara has things SM Hashirama lacks: natural sensor ability and Sharingan. Hashirama being a sensor without Sage Mode is a mistranslation, Tobirama actually said 'I'm a sensor, unlike you brother'.

SM Hashirama will not be able to react to Juubito, nor will Madara. 



> Umm that was in-order to land a mark on him,
> however once juubito was marked, tobirama tagged him not once, but 5 times,
> and out of that, 2 times was V2 Juubi, so evenn that isnt helping your case
> 
> ...


He only did so since he didn't have to worry about damage! What part of 'we're using our immortality to our advantage here' did you miss, ARGUS? Tobirama, in life would not be able to tag Juubito since he, as SHOWN, could not react to him. Only reason why he could touch Obito was because he was an undead shinobi at that point.



> In a CQC he would lose, sure,
> is that all that madara has? no
> but does that mean he would get blitzed? certainly no,
> not when an inferior choku tomo was tracking him, so madara does that just fine
> and when sasuke even managed to tag him with his inferior construct, madara who has superior reactions, superior construct and superior precog would tag him much easier


If Sasuke could tag Juubito, that means his reactions are greater than EMS Madara's, *not* the other way around. And even then, Sasuke landed a hit after much trial and error, and *JUUBITO WAS DICKING AROUND AND WASN'T SERIOUS.*



> No this is all a baseless claim that needs proof,
> getting kyuubi chakra only affected the power of his susanoo, it doesn just magically grant yuo justus that you dont have,


He also got the Cursed Seal powerup too then, remember, which canonically gave him better speed and reactions.


> sasuke had a straight tomo before recieving teh cloak and once he and naruto adapted to juubitos speed, they both were tracking him just fine,


'Tracking him just fine'?

Sasuke was unable to hit him and Juubito was flying circles around him. 


> base hashirama most likely has the same reactions as EMS madara, who can track juubtio, seeing how they are on par with each other on every single thing,


...Base Hashirama was blitzed (proxy through his Mokuton Bushin). EMS Madara would be blitzed too.


> give him SM and hashirama gets to having the best reactions for a non god shinobi, alongside RT madara ofc, who is up there solely due to hashiramas SM


EMS Madara can't GET Sage Mode, only after all the modifications he gave his body he could take Hashirama's, so get that off the table already. And not only that, Juubito's shown he can blitz shinobi of Hashirama and Madara's caliber with ease when he stops dicking around.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 24, 2015)

You don't think tobirama couple replicate the feat with a Bunshin?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 24, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> You don't think tobirama couple replicate the feat with a Bunshin?


Nope. Bushin goes poof before he can tag him. The only reason why Tobirama tagged Obito in the first place was due to being an Edo Tensei.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Nope. Bushin goes poof before he can tag him. The only reason why Tobirama tagged Obito in the first place was due to being an Edo Tensei.



 Where did he place the tag on Obito with a bushin? The only time he used a bushin was to redirect his Gedodama back at Juubito.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Where did he place the tag on Obito with a bushin? The only time he used a bushin was to redirect his Gedodama back at Juubito.


He placed it on Obito's back after being torn to ribbons.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He placed it on Obito's back after being torn to ribbons.



 Thanks. Didn't realize he mentioned he tagged him.


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Juubito gets stomped so hard it's unfunny 
Most of the people here aren't needed
Hashirama +minato would beat him 

Minato tries to gather some sage mode chakra or kabuto can supply him . Actually he can supply everyone 

He can just be the battery charger . While minato +Tobirama take care of escape

Hashirama is supplies the brute force and Itachi and MS sasuke can hang with minato making his BM stronger

Omg and then there is EMS madara and Nagato

Loooool. Juubito dies even if there were 2 juubitos

Seriously people why are we arguing this ?? Minato +madara +kabuto+nagato+ hashirama have the ability to use senjutsu. Then we have Tobirama and 2 MS users 
Quad BD is laughably carried away by the 2 teleporters

Minato already said he could carry 2 and Tobirama 1. The last one hashirama and madara can take care of . 

 thread


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## ARGUS (Feb 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> SM Hashirama has zero reaction feats. Absolutely none. Madara has things SM Hashirama lacks: natural sensor ability and Sharingan. Hashirama being a sensor without Sage Mode is a mistranslation, Tobirama actually said 'I'm a sensor, unlike you brother'.


just because we have never seen in SM hashirama fight in CQC, doesnt mean that he isnt reacting here, 

we have already seen RT Madaras reactions which are solely based on hashiramas SM, 
he was never a natural sensor either, he only managed to gain some minisucle sensing after implanting hashiramas DNA within himself and getting base mokutons, so in the end everything points to base hashirama having some sensing as well, and this completely refutes your argument of being a sensor in and out which doesnt make any sense at all, 

madara in his edo form went from being physically blitzed by lightened Ay, to being able to sense FTG and physically evading the oncoming attack, shitting on tobirama on his next move 
this was all solely after getting a portion of hashiramas SM from the man himself, 

base hashirmas speed, reactions and reflexes are exactly the same as EMS MAdaras, 
no reason to believe why his SM reflexes would be different to SM madaras then,  
so hashirama reacts 




> SM Hashirama will not be able to react to Juubito, nor will Madara.


yeah No, 
Madara has the exact same choku tomo like sasuke which tracked juubito, 
getting kyuubi cloak has got absolutely nothing whatsoever that changes precognition, it only increased the power of his jutsu, (susanoo) 
and you have no proof on this assertion either, 

infact madaras reactions and speed are above sasukes, hence why he reacts and tracks juubito even better than sasuke did 

SM hashirama obviously reacts to juubitos speed as well, based on my explanation above and especially when his reactions would be even above EMS madaras who tracks him fine 



> He only did so since he didn't have to worry about damage! What part of 'we're using our immortality to our advantage here' did you miss, ARGUS? Tobirama, in life would not be able to tag Juubito since he, as SHOWN, could not react to him. Only reason why he could touch Obito was because he was an undead shinobi at that point.



Yet tobirama still tagged juubito not once but 5 times, in his mindless and controlled state 
*[2]* *[3]* *[4]* *[5]* 

regardless of the fact that tobirama lost his body in-order to place a mark on juubito, matter of the fact is that once he placed the mark on him, he tagged him,  
tagging someone = reacting to them  
otherwise it literally makes no sense 



> If Sasuke could tag Juubito, that means his reactions are greater than EMS Madara's, *not* the other way around. And even then, Sasuke landed a hit after much trial and error, and *JUUBITO WAS DICKING AROUND AND WASN'T SERIOUS.*



Umm No, 
Madaras speed > sasukes, 
sasukes straight commas enabled him to react to juubito, 
good thing that madara has the same choku tomo,  and with madaras speed being above sasukes, only leads to his reactions being above sasukes as well 

and as for landing the hit No, 
the instant sasuke began tracking juubito and pinpointing his whereabouts, 
we then see him tagging juubito in the next page, 

claimingg that juubito was dicking around is a piss poor of an excuse to stop from admitting the fact that he was tagged, especially when he was using his top speed to evade their blows and resorts to drop slamming the fuck oout of them on the next page, 
no way in hell is this implying that he was dicking around or that he wasnt serious 



> He also got the Cursed Seal powerup too then, remember, which canonically gave him better speed and reactions.


it improved his susanoos physical means, not his own,
i never said that madaras would tag juubito here, 
just that he is tracking him just fine, which he will and denying this is just stupidity 



> 'Tracking him just fine'?
> 
> Sasuke was unable to hit him and Juubito was flying circles around him.



reading that scan objectively might help you,
sasukes eyes are tracking juubtios speed and locating hhis whereabouts just fine, 
i honestly dont see what there is that your missing here, 

sasuke missed his first attack sure, but that doest mean that he wasnt tracking him, only means that his susanoo was physically too slow, however once he fully adapted to juubitos sppeed, he then tags him with his susanoo whilst naruto with his kurama avatar 



> ...Base Hashirama was blitzed (proxy through his Mokuton Bushin). EMS Madara would be blitzed too.


this has already been addressed 



> EMS Madara can't GET Sage Mode, only after all the modifications he gave his body he could take Hashirama's, so get that off the table already. And not only that, Juubito's shown he can blitz shinobi of Hashirama and Madara's caliber with ease when he stops dicking around.



yeah no, juubito was not dicking around, he used his top speed against kcm naruto, ems sasuke, tobirama and kcm minato, yet he failed to properly blitz any of tthem 

hashirama and madara are both above all these shinobi in terms of reactions so juubito is not blitzing them


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Hashirama is a sensor 
Tobirsms said so himself
He said I am better at sensing than you 
He can't be comparing himself to someone who can't sense at all 
No point doing that 

This is a stomp . A terrible one


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

> SM Hashirama has zero reaction feats. Absolutely none.



Madara reacted to v2 Raikage point blank, reacted to SM Naruto's FRS, reacted to Gaara's sand, outpased Sai and SM Naruto at once, reacted to all of the Gokage without much of a problem. And you know what... Hashirama reacted to Madara. In jutsu battle. And in CQC. 

Hashirama is canonically fast and has awesome reaction speed. He *is* a speedster.

And Juubito cant take this team. He loses.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

> infact madaras reactions and speed are above sasukes, hence why he reacts and tracks juubito even better than sasuke did



I remember you having a debate with me about Madara's speed... I am surprised. bama


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## Raiken (Feb 25, 2015)

This is likely way too much for Juubito to deal with.


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## Kai (Feb 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Juubito gets stomped so hard it's unfunny
> Most of the people here aren't needed
> Hashirama +minato would beat him
> 
> ...


While you're right on some accounts, you think Hashirama can solo Obito by himself  so get out of here with the downplay. Hashirama and Minato don't stand a chance against him. Minato's SM is trash by self admission, and if Hashirama is in SM Minato won't bother entering the state.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 25, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> just because we have never seen in SM hashirama fight in CQC, doesnt mean that he isnt reacting here,


Sage Mode Hashirama has great reactions, but not to the point where he can react to someone who he claimed was on a completely other level than him.


> we have already seen RT Madaras reactions which are solely based on hashiramas SM,
> he was never a natural sensor either, he only managed to gain some minisucle sensing after implanting hashiramas DNA within himself and getting base mokutons, so in the end everything points to base hashirama having some sensing as well, and this completely refutes your argument of being a sensor in and out which doesnt make any sense at all,


Madara was a sensor since he was a child, ARGUS. Its not after implanting Hashirama's DNA he got that power. 

And no, you can't give RT Madara's reactions to SM Hashirama given that RT Madara is stronger than Hashirama. And even then, RT Madara wouldn't be able to react to Juubito considering BM Naruto *blitzed* him without him being able to react.


> madara in his edo form went from being physically blitzed by lightened Ay, to being able to sense FTG and physically evading the oncoming attack, shitting on tobirama on his next move
> this was all solely after getting a portion of hashiramas SM from the man himself,


No, this is all because he could fully combine both his own power and Hashirama's. Not Hashirama's power alone.


> base hashirmas speed, reactions and reflexes are exactly the same as EMS MAdaras,
> no reason to believe why his SM reflexes would be different to SM madaras then,
> so hashirama reacts


Then you have some feats to back this up to put him at least above Naruto and Sasuke?




> yeah No,
> Madara has the exact same choku tomo like sasuke which tracked juubito,
> getting kyuubi cloak has got absolutely nothing whatsoever that changes precognition, it only increased the power of his jutsu, (susanoo)
> and you have no proof on this assertion either,
> ...


Doesn't matter if they have the same eyes. Sasuke's feats are his own, you can't apply them to Madara's since you want Madara to be better. Sasuke has a reaction and speed feat Madara lacks, _that means he's faster._ You want to keep Hashirama and Madara on a pedestal even though Naruto and Sasuke caught up even before the Rikudo Power Up.

RT Madara's reactions and speed couldn't react to a BM Naruto blitz and tail smash. So how exactly is Madara faster?

And SM Hashirama has no feats to show it. You want him to react when the manga blatantly shown he couldn't!


> Yet tobirama still tagged juubito not once but 5 times, in his mindless and controlled state
> *[2]* *[3]* *[4]* *[5]*


That's only because Tobirama basically got himself killed to put the first tag in while Juubito didn't notice.


> regardless of the fact that tobirama lost his body in-order to place a mark on juubito, matter of the fact is that once he placed the mark on him, he tagged him,
> tagging someone = reacting to them
> otherwise it literally makes no sense


Tobirama in life would DIE from the same wound that his Edo Tensei form regenerated from (and put the tag on). He showed he couldn't react to Juubito's speed, instead got ripped apart.




> Umm No,
> Madaras speed > sasukes,
> sasukes straight commas enabled him to react to juubito,
> good thing that madara has the same choku tomo,  and with madaras speed being above sasukes, only leads to his reactions being above sasukes as well


There's no feats for this. Just because they have the same eyes does NOT mean Madara can replicate the feat. Again, an RT Madara got blitzed and tail smashed by BM Naruto, so again, how is Madara faster when he got tagged and smashed by someone slower than Juubito?


> and as for landing the hit No,
> the instant sasuke began tracking juubito and pinpointing his whereabouts,
> we then see him tagging juubito in the next page,


That's because Juubito stopped deliberately to grab and bodyslam both Naruto and Sasuke into the earth.


> claimingg that juubito was dicking around is a piss poor of an excuse to stop from admitting the fact that he was tagged, especially when he was using his top speed to evade their blows and resorts to drop slamming the fuck oout of them on the next page,
> no way in hell is this implying that he was dicking around or that he wasnt serious


Its widely agreed Juubito wasn't serious from his reactions, his attitude, and his attacks. Hell again, I showed you why he stopped, so he could _trap Naruto and Sasuke and body slam them._



> it improved his susanoos physical means, not his own,
> i never said that madaras would tag juubito here,
> just that he is tracking him just fine, which he will and denying this is just stupidity


Except Madara's EMS has no feats of tracking someone as fast as Juubito. You want him to since you want the same eyes to have the same thing, knowing that Madara doesn't have the feats to back it up.




> reading that scan objectively might help you,
> sasukes eyes are tracking juubtios speed and locating hhis whereabouts just fine,
> i honestly dont see what there is that your missing here,
> 
> sasuke missed his first attack sure, but that doest mean that he wasnt tracking him, only means that his susanoo was physically too slow, however once he fully adapted to juubitos sppeed, he then tags him with his susanoo whilst naruto with his kurama avatar


And then Juubito grabs both of them and body slams them showing he just lured them in. Read the next page to see what I mean.



> yeah no, juubito was not dicking around, he used his top speed against kcm naruto, ems sasuke, tobirama and kcm minato, yet he failed to properly blitz any of tthem


Yeah, he was dicking around. He was basically just biding time and playing around for Mugen Tsukuyomi. He didn't even try to blitz Tobirama, KCM Naruto and Minato, and EMS Sasuke since he went straight to using the big guns, he either wanted to wipe the slate clean or just play around for Mugen Tsukuyomi.


> hashirama and madara are both above all these shinobi in terms of reactions so juubito is not blitzing them


Hashirama and Madara are above MINATO, TOBIRAMA, AND KCM/BM NARUTO of all people ARGUS in speed and reactions?! Are you fucking SERIOUS?! This is one of the worst statements you've made!


----------



## Kai (Feb 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara was a sensor since he was a child, ARGUS. Its not after implanting Hashirama's DNA he got that power.


Do you have a panel for this?

By the way, sensing a "presence" is different from being an official sensor who can detect chakra signatures.


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Kai said:


> While you're right on some accounts, you think Hashirama can solo Obito by himself  so get out of here with the downplay. Hashirama and Minato don't stand a chance against him. Minato's SM is trash by self admission, and if Hashirama is in SM Minato won't bother entering the state.



I never implied hashirama could but hashirama +BM minato certainly can 
Considering BM minato can use BD as well and can teleport quad BD

Nothing else juubito has is that much of a threat or unavoidable 

Juubito is fighting 2 teleporters who can get 2 sages right in juubito face 

Juubito dies 11/10 times 

Let's not even talk about the Nagato madara support which will be provided


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I never implied hashirama could but hashirama +BM minato certainly can
> Considering BM minato can use BD as well and can teleport quad BD
> 
> Nothing else juubito has is that much of a threat or unavoidable
> ...


What is the counter to an immediate Six Yang Barrier + Quadruple Bijudama then, Icegaze? Before any tags can be put around?


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## ARGUS (Feb 25, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I remember you having a debate with me about Madara's speed... I am surprised. bama



i guess you still didnt read what i really said, 
that was only for edo madara, whose reactions are well below his living counerpart

as for living madra, i have always always been under the impression that his reactions are superior


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 25, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> i guess you still didnt read what i really said,
> that was only for edo madara, whose reactions are well below his living counerpart
> 
> as for living madra, i have always always been under the impression that his reactions are superior


Even when he doesn't have the feats ARGUS, which you say you go for? RT Madara was again, blitzed by BM Naruto (and got tail smashed) and EMS Sasuke could land a hit on him.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 25, 2015)

Too many opponents for Juubito to handle.

Arguably SM Hashi and BM Minato can handle him without the rest. They should be around the same tier as BSM Naruto and PS EMS Sasuke.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Too many opponents for Juubito to handle.
> 
> Arguably SM Hashi and BM Minato can handle him without the rest. They should be around the same tier as BSM Naruto and PS EMS Sasuke.


I don't think so. Juubito is on a tier where he can handle all these guys with ease while serious. If BM Minato and Tobirama can't get their tags off...there's no way to survive the Six Yang Barrier + Quadruple Bijudama.


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## Kai (Feb 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I never implied hashirama could but hashirama +BM minato certainly can
> Considering BM minato can use BD as well *and can teleport quad BD*
> 
> Nothing else juubito has is that much of a threat or unavoidable
> ...


Show a shred of evidence that shows Minato can teleport quadruple Bijuudama. They both get punked unless they ring out to Konoha. Even Madara stated he would love to see all the Hokage squirm before Obito's power upon witnessing his jinchuuriki state.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't think so. Juubito is on a tier where he can handle all these guys with ease while serious. If BM Minato and Tobirama can't get their tags off...there's no way to survive the Six Yang Barrier + Quadruple Bijudama.



Wasn't it stated that Tobirama could teleport two bijuudamas on his own and that Minato can do so too at least when he got both arms? And if Minato is not bothered with having to teleport tons of people outside the barrier he can simply share his chakra with those guys and so teleport them out of the barrier easily enough. It was stated by Kurama that the sharing jutsu that Naruto uses its just like the one Minato used to store his chakra in Naruto so he can teleport everyone who received his chakra.

The only real problem is how they will strip Juubito from his bijuus. But when it comes to power all those guys together should be above him.


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## Empathy (Feb 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Too many opponents for Juubito to handle.
> 
> Arguably SM Hashi and BM Minato can handle him without the rest. They should be around the same tier as BSM Naruto and PS EMS Sasuke.



Hashirama and Minato don't have the synergy to combine, say, Minato's bijuu form with _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ and they couldn't capitalize on Obito's wavering resolve; I doubt Minato's full bijuu form (without _Sennin Modo_) is quite as strong as perfect _Susanoo_ anyway. Moreover, Naruto and Sasuke needed the entire alliance for tug-of-war.

Most of the people here aren't senjutsu users, so their usefulness is limited.


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## ARGUS (Feb 25, 2015)

Hashirama and minato beating juubito is a joke 
They get abused in many different ways 

And SuperSaiyaman - I'll get back to you soon


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Wasn't it stated that Tobirama could teleport two bijuudamas on his own and that Minato can do so too at least when he got both arms? And if Minato is not bothered with having to teleport tons of people outside the barrier he can simply share his chakra with those guys and so teleport them out of the barrier easily enough. It was stated by Kurama that the sharing jutsu that Naruto uses its just like the one Minato used to store his chakra in Naruto so he can teleport everyone who received his chakra.
> 
> The only real problem is how they will strip Juubito from his bijuus. But when it comes to power all those guys together should be above him.


Tobirama could since he had tags outside the barrier. And Minato could teleport everyone linked to his and Naruto's chakra...he can't do that since his chakra sharing is inferior to Naruto's. And if he and Tobirama can't make tags outside the barrier...its useless.

Remember, I put that Juubito, if bloodlusted his first action would be to make the entire area a prison with the Six Yang Formation Barrier and then just nuke everything. Moving faster than anyone there he can do it before the tags are in place.


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What is the counter to an immediate Six Yang Barrier + Quadruple Bijudama then, Icegaze? Before any tags can be put around?



What makes your think minato can't put tags before the barrier is set up ?
Kyuubi has the ability to transfer  chakra 

Everyone gets that kyuubi chakra and they Jump out of the barrier while laughing at juubito attempt


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> What makes your think minato can't put tags before the barrier is set up ?
> Kyuubi has the ability to transfer  chakra
> 
> Everyone gets that kyuubi chakra and they Jump out of the barrier while laughing at juubito attempt



 Because BM Minato got his arm chopped off and even got tagged by Juubito after using Hiraishin all while Minato failed to even tag Juubito.

 I do agree, if he can place tags outside barrier or even do that in preparation for the fight, then he can obviously warp everyone outside the barrier.


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because BM Minato got his arm chopped off and even got tagged by Juubito after using Hiraishin all while Minato failed to even tag Juubito.
> 
> I do agree, if he can place tags outside barrier or even do that in preparation for the fight, then he can obviously warp everyone outside the barrier.



And SM Narito was able to hit a tagged juubito 
Minato was also able to do Hirashin swap against juubito 
Hitting minato once doesn't suddenlh mean he can pull off his attacks before minato makes an escape 

Like I said either chakra is transferred and he carries everyone to safety or he wraps 2 BD Tobirama wraps 1 and the rest deal with the 1 BD left 

I think Nagato+EMS madara +kabuto+ itachi +MS sasuke +hashirama 

Can deal with 1 BD don't you ?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> And SM Narito was able to hit a tagged juubito
> Minato was also able to do Hirashin swap against juubito
> Hitting minato once doesn't suddenlh mean he can pull off his attacks before minato makes an escape
> 
> ...


Minato can't DO the chakra transfer that Naruto can. Kurama explained why Naruto had surpassed him that way quite clearly.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 26, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even when he doesn't have the feats ARGUS, which you say you go for? RT Madara was again, blitzed by BM Naruto (and got tail smashed) and EMS Sasuke could land a hit on him.



When he had his Susanoo up? Yeah, lol, his Susanoo is obviously not fast enough to move away from Kurama's hit.

Also, i wanna see a proof that EMS Sasuke could tag RT Madara. I know what you are talking about. And i wanna see a proof that was Madara's wound from Sasuke's blade. Sasuke could land a hit on him when he wanted him to do that.


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato can't DO the chakra transfer that Naruto can. Kurama explained why Naruto had surpassed him that way quite clearly.



Then they go with the other option which you didn't dispute
MInaato carries 2 
Tobirama one 
And the rest deal with 1 causally


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Then they go with the other option which you didn't dispute
> MInaato carries 2
> Tobirama one
> And the rest deal with 1 causally


But here's the thing. If the barrier goes up immediately...that means no network for Minato or Tobirama to create their Hiraishin teleporters.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato can't DO the chakra transfer that Naruto can. Kurama explained why Naruto had surpassed him that way quite clearly.



I believe that had more to do with the rate at which Naruto can mold his chakra to fit the traits of each person or at least that was what Yang Kurama commented on.

 @Icegaze

 SM Naruto only landed that hit due to Tobirama's help along with the fact that Tobirama stated Juubito was off-guard and was not going to be hit by a strike like that once his guard was up which was proven to be true as he managed to defend against both BM Minato and BSM Naruto's attacks.

 Minato only managed the Hiraishin swap obviously with Tobirama's aid, but also because Juubito was focused entirely on Sasuke and Naruto and wasn't even focused on Minato. Minato also pulled it off not only because it was done at the last second, but also due to Juubito's lack of knowledge on the technique. There's no reason to be concerned if it seemingly looked like Minato was getting struck by their combination jutsu.

 It actually does. BM Minato without Kurama Avatar or Naruto's help was useless. Tobirama did all the work, actually physically touching and tagging Juubito multiple times while during the Hiraishin swap, Minato was the one who directed Naruto and Sasuke towards Juubito. Tobirama actually ran the risk of tagging Juubito because he was physically more reflexive than Minato was. That and the fact that Minato was tagged by Juubito after having his arm chopped off and using Hiraishin. And actually, BM Minato had to rely on Tobirama to even get close to Juubito. Without Tobirama's tags, his whole attack would've been useless.

 The only thing BM Minato is useful in this match are possibly Bijuudamas if Hashirama wishes to enhance them with senjutsu and to warp the group out of the barrier to evade the Juubidamas.


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## Bonly (Feb 26, 2015)

Obito's likely to win more times then not. Hashi,Kabuto, and Minato(for however long he'll stay in SM) are the only ones that can actually hurt him but chances are Obito is gonna speed blitz/kill a few of them before they realize that will get the job done and by then it'll be too late. Obito could either nuke them to hell or send out the Tree to start sucking their chakra/chase after them thus giving him a chance to attack the last few people who are already busy.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 26, 2015)

It will be extremely hard to hit Juubito with Nagatos soul dragon technique but if it hits will it one shot Obito or no?


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But here's the thing. If the barrier goes up immediately...that means no network for Minato or Tobirama to create their Hiraishin teleporters.


Minato was able to set up markers 
Which initially allowed the kages to has the 4 barrier seal or whatever it's called 

So obito throws his rods 
Minato throws his markers past those rods before juubito can form the seal to create the Barrier 

Juubito isn't beating 

A susanoo enhanced BM minato ( capable of sage mode ) so imagine sage mode totsuka sword 

Sage mode madara Enton  susanoo (kabuto+Ms sasuke)

Nagato all his Jutsu will work since its rinnegan based 

And then sage mode hashirama 
Tobirama can support Hashirama and Nagato

We have already seen with much weaker back up Tobirama was able to exploit juubito openings 

Juubito dies here can't even be debated 
Juubi dama is hyped to shits . Considering Minato by himself can deal with one even without markings outside . Do read the manga 

He said I can only deal with one since I can't use markings . 
Outside using BD juubito is a sitting duck to be slaughtered


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato was able to set up markers
> Which initially allowed the kages to has the 4 barrier seal or whatever it's called


That's much smaller than the barrier that Obito created. Much, much smaller.


> So obito throws his rods
> Minato throws his markers past those rods before juubito can form the seal to create the Barrier


...Minato throws his markers nearly a hundred _kilometers around_ (where at best he could do 10-15 kilometers to contain the Juubi)? Seriously?


> Juubito isn't beating
> 
> A susanoo enhanced BM minato ( capable of sage mode ) so imagine sage mode totsuka sword


Not happening, BM Minato can't enhance people and his Sage Mode sucks, remember?


> Sage mode madara Enton  susanoo (kabuto+Ms sasuke)


Madara doesn't HAVE Enton and can't access Sage Mode without Hashirama's enhancements.


> Nagato all his Jutsu will work since its rinnegan based


Nagato gets blitzed or nuked. He's literally a non-factor.


> And then sage mode hashirama
> Tobirama can support Hashirama and Nagato


They get blitzed or nuked.


> We have already seen with much weaker back up Tobirama was able to exploit juubito openings


We have seen Tobirama get ripped to pieces and only marked Juubito since he was a Edo Tensei, you mean.


> Juubito dies here can't even be debated
> Juubi dama is hyped to shits . Considering Minato by himself can deal with one even without markings outside . Do read the manga


You're the one whose downplaying Juubito to an insane degree. He's faster than everyone here. He's stronger than everyone here. He can tank what they dish out and regenerate from everything they have here. He can absorb their chakra. he can nuke them to hell. There's literally nothing they can do to him, he only lost due to Naruto being present remember?


> He said I can only deal with one since I can't use markings .
> Outside using BD juubito is a sitting duck to be slaughtered




What manga did you read? Juubito is at a level where he was comparable to Hagoromo Otsutsuki by Madara himself. This team, despite how 'strong' it is, its not beating him. He literally can just camp out in his Gudodama and just keep nuking them until there's no one left. 

Minato can't deal with four Juubi Bijudama at once. And Juubito could probably make MORE than that. 

Stop with the downplay.


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## sabre320 (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That's much smaller than the barrier that Obito created. Much, much smaller.
> 
> ...Minato throws his markers nearly a hundred _kilometers around_ (where at best he could do 10-15 kilometers to contain the Juubi)? Seriously?
> 
> ...



What the heck are you talking about where are u getting that minato cant teleport the 4 juubidamas he explicitely stated he couldnt teleport more then 2 because he had one arm and couldnt utilize space time barrier he is even capable of clones using space time barrier stop with ur downplay..

and look at the scan you posted clearly ..

at that time kurama did not even know that minato was a perfect jichuriki of his other half and had mastered his chakra and reached perfect resonance with it hence him being surprised even minato!! he though only naruto had perfectly synchronized with the kyuubi we later found that to be untrue as minato achieved bm perfect synchronization..uzumaki blood enhances the amount of chakra and the quantity of chakra he can mold and distribute not that it affects chakra distribution..*he further elaborated minato used this very method to put his chakra into naruto and you think he cant do this to others*...he cant distribute chakra to the same extent as naruto sure but for a few individuals it is very feasible..

juubito might be capable of winning but you are making it seem that it would be laughable ease while the manga proves otherwise the same tactics you state were dealt with..and he isnt close to hagoromo..rikudo naruto and sasuke trash obito and they were half of him..his guodama was broken by senpo chou oodama rasenshuriken..so stop saying he tanks everything he was bisected with a senpo kyuubisussano..

yes he is a god tier but the weakest of that tier..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> What the heck are you talking about where are u getting that minato cant teleport the 4 juubidamas he explicitely stated he couldnt teleport more then 2 because he had one arm and couldnt utilize space time barrier he is even capable of clones using space time barrier stop with ur downplay..
> 
> and look at the scan you posted clearly ..


And how can he teleport people or objects when he can't even set up his Hiraishin network? Is this truly a hard concept to grasp, Sabre320? Minato can't put a tag outside the barrier since he wouldn't be able to reach the edge in time before it raises. 


> at that time kurama did not even know that minato was a perfect jichuriki of his other half and had mastered his chakra and reached perfect resonance with it hence him being surprised even minato!! he though only naruto had perfectly synchronized with the kyuubi we later found that to be untrue as minato achieved bm perfect synchronization..uzumaki blood enhances the amount of chakra and the quantity of chakra he can mold and distribute not that it affects chakra distribution..*he further elaborated minato used this very method to put his chakra into naruto and you think he cant do this to others*...he cant distribute chakra to the same extent as naruto sure but for a few individuals it is very feasible..




It doesn't matter if Minato is a Perfect Jinchuriki. If that's the case, *KILLER BEE WOULD BE DOING THE CHAKRA SHARING TOO!* Kurama flat out said its only because Naruto has had him inside him *all of his life* and that he was a Uzumaki he could do the chakra transfer. It doesn't get any more blatant than that!

Kurama: Naruto's the only one who can achieve proper resonance with my chakra. *Since he's been a Jinchuriki his whole life and because he has Kushina's blood flowing through his veins...*but honestly...to become this adept as to mold the chakra to match each individual's unique traits so quickly...heh...this means that now I can transfer my chakra to anyone using Naruto as a vessel...Minato...he's learned the exact same method when you passed your chakra to him as a child...this brat's already...surpassed surpassed both his parents...the number of links and the sheer volume of chakra he can funnel is frightening...

Naruto's the only one who can do the V1 shroud thing. Minato may have the same method, but he can't LINK people to the large volume of chakra like Naruto can. Hence why he was helpless while Naruto did it with ease.


> juubito might be capable of winning but you are making it seem that it would be laughable ease while the manga proves otherwise the same tactics you state were dealt with..and he isnt close to hagoromo..rikudo naruto and sasuke trash obito and they were half of him..his guodama was broken by senpo chou oodama rasenshuriken..so stop saying he tanks everything he was bisected with a senpo kyuubisussano..
> 
> yes he is a god tier but the weakest of that tier..


Juubito is the weakest God Tier, but he's still far, far, FAR stronger than everyone on this list. Hashirama, the closest person near him still can't touch him. BM Minato was useless. Tobirama only got that far being an Edo Tensei. 'It took a Senpo Bijudama to break his Gudodama', yeah, cause a small crack. And he was bisected by Senpo Magestic Armor Susanoo Biju Mode Naruto and would have immediately regenerated if Naruto didn't connect the chakra's he had from the Biju's to the wound. Forgot about THAT didn't you?

All Juubito has to keep doing is nuking them.


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## sabre320 (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And how can he teleport people or objects when he can't even set up his Hiraishin network? Is this truly a hard concept to grasp, Sabre320? Minato can't put a tag outside the barrier since he wouldn't be able to reach the edge in time before it raises.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato was helpless? he couldnt use senjutsu thus couldnt threaten obito but as a support he was far from useless he saved the alliance so many times its laughable.. but he was the one who said that there is one way ...when the barrier was setup eluding to the very possibility that naruto suggested later through the connection naruto had he was able to use ftg with every single shinobi...

minato has to shunshin and throw a kunai he dosent need to out pace the complete area of the barrier..he has to cover enough distance and throw kunai outside the barrier we have countless exapmles of ninjas throwing speed surpassing their shunshin..

kurama thought that only a person who had him by birth could gain control and resonance over his chakra  yet he was later surprised by minato gaining the same  control and resonance over yin kurama..uzumaki blood does not make you better at sharing chakra...it allows him to mold and share greater amounts thus great quantity..kurama later stated minato used this very method to share chakra and put his chakra in naruto..if he can use the same method he can share kyuubi chakra through the same method just not to the great extent as naruto..

9 senpo oodama rasengan in canon cracked juubitos sheild and senpo kyuubisussano bisected him..minato has the same avatar hashirama or kabuto can provide senjutsu and madara should have a greater ps...

nukes are not a threat with space time barrier and ftg users here..

have you maybe given thought to the possibilty that  this chakra sharing is limited only to kurama jinchuriki? or was bee ever eluded to share chakra like minato?


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That's much smaller than the barrier that Obito created. Much, much smaller.
> 
> ...Minato throws his markers nearly a hundred _kilometers around_ (where at best he could do 10-15 kilometers to contain the Juubi)? Seriously?
> 
> ...



yet madara using hashirama hermit power believed he could stop juubito in under 15 mins. 

you are overly hyping him. point still remains tobirama can carry 1 Bd

minato can carry more than 1. if he has markings and 1 if he doesnt. which clearly means you are overhyping its utility in this match up 

tobirama clone was able to hit juubito!!! SM naruto was able to hit juubito. now imagine juubito being tagged which he obviously will . against 2 hirashin users he cant avoid it. 

again a clone coudl have easily replicated what tobirama as an ET did and tag juubito. who was getting hit by the likes of Sm naruto 

imagine instead of a simple rasegan it was budda fist appearnig behind juubito!!! juubito will be dead 

his black rods was cracking against just sasuke legged susanoo and BSM naruto attack 

that pales so laughably in comprasion to hashirama budda+madara  sage  enton susanoo blade (amped by kabuto swimming in his susanoo the way juugo did- kabuto has jugo ability so its a given and sasuke using his enton while in madara susanoo) +nagato attacks+ minato sage rasengan 

juubito cant block all that coming at him. which is entirely possible if he has been tagged which he obviously failed to avoid 

i mean the guy got trolled 3 times by hirashin with just KCM naruto+EMS sasuke+ minato+tobirama

those 4 are soooooooo much weaker than the overall strength of this team it aint funny


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yet madara using hashirama hermit power believed he could stop juubito in under 15 mins.
> 
> you are overly hyping him. point still remains tobirama can carry 1 Bd
> 
> ...



I dont remember Juubito being tagged by *SM Naruto*.


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## ARGUS (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sage Mode Hashirama has great reactions, but not to the point where he can react to someone who he claimed was on a completely other level than him.


Actuallly, yes he does 
he may noot be able to physically react, but mentally he can definitely do so, 
especially when even EMS sasuke or tobirama who have reactions inferior to hashiramas was able to do so


> *Madara was a sensor since he was a child*, ARGUS. Its not after implanting Hashirama's DNA he got that power.


No he wasnt, and based on what did you come to this conclusion? 
Edo madara =/= EMS madara in any way shape or form,,, 
EMS madara has never displayed any feat of detecting chakra signatures, nor has he showwn any sensing feats whatsoever, 

edo madara who has hashiramas DNA all over him, was able to detect hashiramas presence, (a chakra monster) but apart from that, ems madara or edo madara haave shown nothing, 



> And no, you can't give RT Madara's reactions to SM Hashirama given that RT Madara is stronger than Hashirama.


you can certainly give all the sensing feats to hashirama, no reason why cant we, given the fact that his main reactions are all due to hashiramas SM which he got directly from the man himself, 
and the fact that prior to that, hashiramas speed and reactions are exactly on par with madaras 



> And even then, RT Madara wouldn't be able to react to Juubito considering BM Naruto *blitzed* him without him being able to react.


His susanoo was physically too slow to evade 



> No, this is all because he could fully combine both his own power and Hashirama's. Not Hashirama's power alone.


Never mentioned anything about their overall power, but only their sensing abilities which are mainly due to his SM 


> Then you have some feats to back this up to put him at least above Naruto and Sasuke?


for Madara, ill use sasuke as an example because this certainly shuts this case up, 

 -- Madaras choku tomo = Sasukes choku tomo

 -- choku tomo was able to track juubito and percieve his movements, 

 -- Madaras speed > Sasukes speed, the faster you physically move, the better you can react, hence why Madaras reactions > Sasukes reactions 

 -- Sasukes reactions were enough to track juubitos, and given that madaras are above sasukes, he does the same here 

base hashiramas reactions = EMS madaras, 
add the enormous SM boost and he will react to juubito even easier than madara would 



> Doesn't matter if they have the same eyes. Sasuke's feats are his own, you can't apply them to Madara's


Uhh by that logic, we cant give BM minato the feat of TBB since he never formed it on his own, despite the fact that its the same kyuubi, smh 
Madara has the exact same choku tomo as sasukes, which was the main reason why he reacted to juubito, why the hell cant we give  that feat to madara? 
thats just denial 



> since you want Madara to be better.


Uhh No, theres no bias here at all, just denial on your behalf 



> Sasuke has a reaction and speed feat Madara lacks, _that means he's faster._


Nearly blitzing war arc SM naruto through his speed alone is something that EMS sasuke has never showed us, 
having the same straight commas as sasukes and superior speed as him only points to madara replicating his feat, 
just because he hasnt fought a speedster in his EMS form, doesnt mean that he isnt reacting, when all logic points to the otherwise 



> You want to keep Hashirama and Madara on a pedestal even though Naruto and Sasuke caught up even before the Rikudo Power Up.


in terms of overall power, 
RT Madara >> SM Hashirama > VOTE Madara > BSM Naruto >> EMS madara > EMS Sasuke 
there is no pedestal, 



> RT Madara's reactions and speed couldn't react to a BM Naruto blitz and tail smash. So how exactly is Madara faster?


Yet he shat on FTG an instant teleportation attack, not just mentally but also physically, 
again, his susanoo was physically too slow, doesnt mean that he got blitzed 



> And SM Hashirama has no feats to show it. *You want him to react when the manga blatantly shown he couldn't*!


Based on? manga didnt show shit, 
all the logic reasoning as explained to you in this and the posts above, points to him reacting 



> That's only because Tobirama basically got himself killed to put the first tag in while Juubito didn't notice.


again thats to put the mark on him, 
after that however he still tagged him 5 times, 
and i have shown you all the scans for it, yet all i see is denial 



> Tobirama in life would DIE from the same wound that his Edo Tensei form regenerated from (and put the tag on). He showed he couldn't react to Juubito's speed, instead got ripped apart.


Are we reading the same manga here? 
tobirama showed that he could react, 
tagging someone 5 times,  and youre saying that he couldnt react? are you for real? 

and no shit he would die witth a wound like that, 
but then theres the fact that Living Tobirmas reactions > Edo tobiramas 




> There's no feats for this. Just because they have the same eyes does NOT mean Madara can replicate the feats. Again, an RT Madara got blitzed and tail smashed by BM Naruto, so again, how is Madara faster when he got tagged and smashed by someone slower than Juubito?


All of this has already been addressed above, dont see why youre not accepting that he can react 



> That's because Juubito stopped deliberately to grab and bodyslam both Naruto and Sasuke into the earth.


He didnt  just stop deliberately, he got tagged and was forced to block instead of evading, 
and only then he began his offense 



> Its widely agreed Juubito wasn't serious from his reactions, his attitude, and his attacks. Hell again, I showed you why he stopped, so he could _trap Naruto and Sasuke and body slam them._


Are what makes you say that? 
drop slamming the fuck out of naruto and sasuke and creating an enormous crater = him not being serious? Lol  come on! 
using top speed, and attempting to evade all their attacks but then blocking them = him not being tagged? Lol come on! 



> Except Madara's EMS has no feats of tracking someone as fast as Juubito. You want him to since you want the same eyes to have the same thing, knowing that Madara doesn't have the feats to back it up.


i have already addressed this above, 
choku tomo precog was the reason why he could track him, madara has the same thing, 
now why on earth can madara not replicate this feat? 
all i see is denial, and instead of countering it, or posting an argument, 
all youre  saying is that madara doesnt have the feats, just becuase he has never fought a speedster in his EMS form? come on 



> Yeah, he was dicking around. He was basically just biding time and playing around for Mugen Tsukuyomi. He didn't even try to blitz Tobirama, KCM Naruto and Minato, and EMS Sasuke since he went straight to using the big guns, he either wanted to wipe the slate clean or just play around for Mugen Tsukuyomi.


Yeah no, forming Quad Juubi TBB and trapping them in the barrier = him not serious 
claiming that he wasnt serious is a piss poor of an excuse to say that he wasnt able to blitz either of the 4 



> Hashirama and Madara are above MINATO, TOBIRAMA, AND KCM/BM NARUTO of all people ARGUS in speed and reactions?! Are you fucking SERIOUS?! This is one of the worst statements you've made!


Lets see, 
EMS  madara > EMS sasuke in reactions, precog, speed, and reflexes, 
EMS sasukes precog puts him above the likes of KCM narutos reactions who was struggling to keep up to V1 Juubi, 
so madara is already above kcm naruto, ems sasuke and tobirama, 
no reason why he isnt aboove kcm minato either, 

you need to understand that speed =/= reactions, 
speed may help you react better, but that doesnt mean everything, 
Tobirama is much faster than madara, yet not only did he fail to blitz him,, but got shat on by a much slower character, this alone should comepltely refute your point


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Minato was helpless? he couldnt use senjutsu thus couldnt threaten obito but as a support he was far from useless he saved the alliance so many times its laughable.. but he was the one who said that there is one way ...when the barrier was setup eluding to the very possibility that naruto suggested later through the connection naruto had he was able to use ftg with every single shinobi...


Yeah, but without Naruto there he would be useless. He couldn't save everyone if not for Naruto having to link the chakra with all the shrouds he gave out.


> minato has to shunshin and throw a kunai he dosent need to out pace the complete area of the barrier..he has to cover enough distance and throw kunai outside the barrier we have countless exapmles of ninjas throwing speed surpassing their shunshin..


All you're making is Minato puts his tags around in an area far smaller than the barrier that goes up.


> kurama thought that only a person who had him by birth could gain control and resonance over his chakra  yet he was later surprised by minato gaining the same  control and resonance over yin kurama..uzumaki blood does not make you better at sharing chakra...it allows him to mold and share greater amounts thus great quantity..kurama later stated minato used this very method to share chakra and put his chakra in naruto..if he can use the same method he can share kyuubi chakra through the same method just not to the great extent as naruto..


No, its not the same thing. Being a perfect Jinchuriki doesn't allow Minato to share his chakra like Naruto did! The manga flat out says WHY that is and you keep ignoring or insisting that Minato can do it when the manga explicitly says he can't. Just because Minato had achieved Tailed Beast Mode does NOT mean he can do what Naruto could do-in fact the manga went out of its way to say WHY Minato can't do it. 


> 9 senpo oodama rasengan in canon cracked juubitos sheild and senpo kyuubisussano bisected him..minato has the same avatar hashirama or kabuto can provide senjutsu and madara should have a greater ps...


And he could regenerate from all that. What defeated Obito, since you have a bad memory is this: Naruto coaxing out the Biju chakras with the ones he has inside him then latching on.


> nukes are not a threat with space time barrier and ftg users here..


Shame the FTG users can't get their tags out in time or have unlimited chakra, huh?


> have you maybe given thought to the possibilty that  this chakra sharing is limited only to kurama jinchuriki? or was bee ever eluded to share chakra like minato?


Have you thought of the possibility that only a Jinchuriki who has had the Tailed Beast sealed inside them since birth and then became a Perfect Jinchuriki as well as having Uzumaki blood could do the chakra sharing that Naruto can?

You keep bringing up 'MINATO IS A PERFECT JINCHURIKI!' yet I keep pointing out Killer Bee, another Perfect Jinchuriki, is unable to do it. Thus the only reason why Naruto can do it is because he's been a Jinchuriki since birth and having Uzumaki blood. The manga flat out says it. You're wrong. Disproven. So stop latching onto this and say 'hey, I might be wrong here, thanks for the manga page'.


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## GearsUp (Feb 27, 2015)

I see this topic has gone on for 5+ pages. this must mean some *snip* thinks obito has a chance here?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yet madara using hashirama hermit power believed he could stop juubito in under 15 mins.


Madara is an arrogant ass. He didn't even know that he could receive permanent injuries from a Gudodama since he didn't participate in the fight.


> you are overly hyping him. point still remains tobirama can carry 1 Bd


To what? If the barrier goes up immediately there won't be ANY warping of the Bijudama.


> minato can carry more than 1. if he has markings and 1 if he doesnt. which clearly means you are overhyping its utility in this match up


Again, to WHAT? With the barrier up immediately it means that Minato nor Tobirama can teleport anything anywhere.


> tobirama clone was able to hit juubito!!! SM naruto was able to hit juubito. now imagine juubito being tagged which he obviously will . against 2 hirashin users he cant avoid it.


Tobriama and Naruto were able to hit Juubito since while as an Edo Tensei Tobirama had managed to tag Juubito *after being torn in half.* Do you have this much cognitive dissonance to ignore that little fact?


> again a clone coudl have easily replicated what tobirama as an ET did and tag juubito. who was getting hit by the likes of Sm naruto


A clone? You mean the same things that are destroyed by a single attack? Yeah, THAT'D get the tag on! Oh wait, it wouldn't.


> imagine instead of a simple rasegan it was budda fist appearnig behind juubito!!! juubito will be dead


Or Juubito just regenerates and he keeps attacking.


> his black rods was cracking against just sasuke legged susanoo and BSM naruto attack


And then he lures them in and slams them.


> that pales so laughably in comprasion to hashirama budda+madara  sage  enton susanoo blade (amped by kabuto swimming in his susanoo the way juugo did- kabuto has jugo ability so its a given and sasuke using his enton while in madara susanoo) +nagato attacks+ minato sage rasengan


First of all, EMS Madara can't use Sage Mode. He doesn't have the body modifications which makes it possible. Secondly, EMS Madara can't use Enton, that's an ability that Sasuke solely has. Nagato's attacks are useless. Hashirama's Buddha is in slow motion and would be nuked. Kabuto is useless.


> juubito cant block all that coming at him. which is entirely possible if he has been tagged which he obviously failed to avoid


Or Juubito can stop them in their tracks, blitz them and turn them into ribbons before they realized he moved.


> i mean the guy got trolled 3 times by hirashin with just KCM naruto+EMS sasuke+ minato+tobirama
> 
> those 4 are soooooooo much weaker than the overall strength of this team it aint funny


And you forget Obito was only dicking around.

Oh wait you're one of the guys who thinks Hashirama could probably beat him on his own.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

GearsUp said:


> I see this topic has gone on for 5+ pages. this must mean some *snip* thinks obito has a chance here?


Reported. Not just me, anyone whose read the manga knows Obito would win due to how strong he was.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 27, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> juubito might be capable of winning but you are making it seem that it would be laughable ease while the manga proves otherwise the same tactics you state were dealt with..and he isnt close to hagoromo..rikudo naruto and sasuke trash obito and they were half of him..his guodama was broken by senpo chou oodama rasenshuriken..so stop saying he tanks everything he was bisected with a senpo kyuubisussano..



Juubito's gudoudama durability is rather weird as while it was destroyed by Rasengans used by rookies at the same time it resisted the explosion of 4 bijuudamas, took only moderate damage from a BSM enhanced bijuudama assisted by V3 CS powered Susanoo Enton arrow, and seemingly no damage from a super big senjutsu rasengan combo from BSM Naruto and BM Minato.

But yeah, if BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could defeat him by joining forces I do not see how so many powerful guys here can't perform some broken combo attack too. Hashi got SM and so does Kabuto. Nagato's rinnegan should have Six Path chakra due to how it was awakened and so should affect Juubito too I think. Only EMS Madara, MS Itachi and Tobirama are sorta powerless here but Tobirama can assist others by teleporting and Madara's PS can at least offer some protection from Juubito's attacks since Sasuke's Susanoo arm could block a gudoudama spear even if it ended up with a hole later.

And since Senjutsu was not restricted for Minato then I guess he can try to enter it and if/once he does he can combine it with Madara's PS to form SM Kyuusano.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Reported. Not just me, anyone whose read the manga knows Obito would win due to how strong he was.



Anyone who read the manga knows that team is too much for Juubito.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Actuallly, yes he does
> he may noot be able to physically react, but mentally he can definitely do so,
> especially when even EMS sasuke or tobirama who have reactions inferior to hashiramas was able to do so


Hashriama's reactions are inferior to EMS Sasuke's and Tobirama's, not superior. He's canonically slower than Tobirama, so claiming he's faster and has superior reactions is fallacy.


> No he wasnt, and based on what did you come to this conclusion?
> Edo madara =/= EMS madara in any way shape or form,,,
> EMS madara has never displayed any feat of detecting chakra signatures, nor has he showwn any sensing feats whatsoever,


Madara's shown he was a sensor since childhood. We see him sensing long distances and sensing when his dad and Izuna showed up.


> edo madara who has hashiramas DNA all over him, was able to detect hashiramas presence, (a chakra monster) but apart from that, ems madara or edo madara haave shown nothing,


Madara could sense his father and Izuna arriving, as well as Butsuma and Tobirama arriving before Hashirama did.



> you can certainly give all the sensing feats to hashirama, no reason why cant we, given the fact that his main reactions are all due to hashiramas SM which he got directly from the man himself,
> and the fact that prior to that, hashiramas speed and reactions are exactly on par with madaras


No, you can't. Hashirama has zero sensing feats. You can't apply what Madara did to what Hashirama can do just because you want him to have things he never shown in the manga.



> His susanoo was physically too slow to evade


He's shown speed in his Susano'o to evade other people before. BM Naruto blitzed him. He did it before during the battle before the Juubi was revived.



> Never mentioned anything about their overall power, but only their sensing abilities which are mainly due to his SM


No, you've quite alluded it.


> for Madara, ill use sasuke as an example because this certainly shuts this case up,
> 
> -- Madaras choku tomo = Sasukes choku tomo
> 
> ...


It doesn't work that way. Just because they have the same eyes, it doesn't mean they have the same reactions. You're applying A>B>C logic since you want Sasuke's speed and reactions to be on a lower tier than Madara's so you can apply his feats against Juubito to him. When anyone with a brain would go: hey, if Sasuke could do this, that means his reactions and speed are faster than Madara's.


> base hashiramas reactions = EMS madaras,
> add the enormous SM boost and he will react to juubito even easier than madara would


Not even close. Hashirama's primary boost was his ninjutsu, not any other areas like Toad Sage Mode.



> Uhh by that logic, we cant give BM minato the feat of TBB since he never formed it on his own, despite the fact that its the same kyuubi, smh
> Madara has the exact same choku tomo as sasukes, which was the main reason why he reacted to juubito, why the hell cant we give  that feat to madara?
> thats just denial


No, we can give BM Minato the feat of forming a Tailed Beast Ball since we see him forming one next to Naruto. Madara has the same eyes as Sasuke's, but Sasuke's have the better feats. Thus Sasuke's eyes are better than Madara's.



> Uhh No, theres no bias here at all, just denial on your behalf


There is a lot of bias from your post. You've *always* put Hashirama and Madara on pedestals where they don't belong, exaggerate their feats, and apply feats from other characters or from one another to them to justify it when you KNOW there is no on panel evidence to support it. You constantly, consistently act like they were the strongest, fastest shinobi of all times and if BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could 'react to Juubito', they could too! Instead of going 'hey, maybe BMS Naruto and EMS Sasuke are stronger/faster than I thought', you always go that they are weaker, slower, have worst reactions than your two golden boys.



> Nearly blitzing war arc SM naruto through his speed alone is something that EMS sasuke has never showed us,
> having the same straight commas as sasukes and superior speed as him only points to madara replicating his feat,
> just because he hasnt fought a speedster in his EMS form, doesnt mean that he isnt reacting, when all logic points to the otherwise


Nearly blitzing a War Arc SM Naruto who had exhausted most of his Sage Chakra (thus giving him lower reactions like we saw in the Pain battle) isn't a good feat. Sasuke was able to get the better and stab Madara through which Madara himself thought was impressive.



> in terms of overall power,
> RT Madara >> SM Hashirama > VOTE Madara > BSM Naruto >> EMS madara > EMS Sasuke
> there is no pedestal,


Yeha, there is a fucking pedestal. BSM Naruto has better feats than SM Hashirama and VOTE Madara, has better destructive capacity, has better defenses, has better speed, and has superior control over Kurama's power (over what Madara could do). You do put them on a pedestal. You claim they are stronger when they aren't. You ignore and downplay Naruto's feats and Sasuke's feats to make Hashirama and Madara look better. You do this ALL the time ARGUS, so much so you can't see the writing on the wall.



> Yet he shat on FTG an instant teleportation attack, not just mentally but also physically,
> again, his susanoo was physically too slow, doesnt mean that he got blitzed


Juubito shat on FTG too and severed Minato's arm with ease, reacting to a FTG slash. 

We've seen through Sasuke a very mobile and fast Susano'o. Don't make excuses for Madara if he couldn't react to Naruto's blitz.
Based on? manga didnt show shit, 


> all the logic reasoning as explained to you in this and the posts above, points to him reacting


No, it doesn't. It just shows what team you want to win.



> again thats to put the mark on him,
> after that however he still tagged him 5 times,
> and i have shown you all the scans for it, yet all i see is denial


He only tagged him since he could put up a tag on Juubito's back _after being ripped in half._ Its not denial when you point out facts you refuse to even acknowledge.



> Are we reading the same manga here?
> tobirama showed that he could react,
> tagging someone 5 times,  and youre saying that he couldnt react? are you for real?


Way to ignore that only happened because the first time he got carved into paper sashimi.


> and no shit he would die witth a wound like that,
> but then theres the fact that Living Tobirmas reactions > Edo tobiramas


Doesn't matter if he's living or not ARGUS. He can't avoid it and tag Juubito at the same time without getting ripped in half. All that might happen if Living Tobirama was in the same situation is his body is less ripped in half than he was as an Edo, but he'd still have too much damage to tag Juubito. Thus, no tags.




> All of this has already been addressed above, dont see why youre not accepting that he can react


And all you do is either Madara or Hashirama wank as a response, or apply feats which they don't have.



> He didnt  just stop deliberately, he got tagged and was forced to block instead of evading,
> and only then he began his offense


Yeah, it does look like he stopped deliberately so he could grab Naruto and Sasuke and slam them. Its a widely known tactic.



> Are what makes you say that?
> drop slamming the fuck out of naruto and sasuke and creating an enormous crater = him not being serious? Lol  come on!
> using top speed, and attempting to evade all their attacks but then blocking them = him not being tagged? Lol come on!


 Since he wasn't trying to kill them, he was trying to _break_ them. You don't remember that Obito was doing all this to make Naruto break and join him? That he was having doubts and that Naruto's stubborn resistance made him be careless and unconsciously hold back? 



> i have already addressed this above,
> choku tomo precog was the reason why he could track him, madara has the same thing,
> now why on earth can madara not replicate this feat?
> all i see is denial, and instead of countering it, or posting an argument,
> all youre  saying is that madara doesnt have the feats, just becuase he has never fought a speedster in his EMS form? come on


Since that's A>B>C logic. Saying that one character who has something similar to another can do a similar feat does not WORK in Naruto. It all matters is the USAGE. If Sasuke has a better speed and reaction feat to Madara's who lacks it, that means it can't be applied to Madara's since his eyes are not the exact same as Sasuke's. 



> Yeah no, forming Quad Juubi TBB and trapping them in the barrier = him not serious
> claiming that he wasnt serious is a piss poor of an excuse to say that he wasnt able to blitz either of the 4


He gave them enough time to escape. He wanted to see how Naruto would respond.



> Lets see,
> EMS  madara > EMS sasuke in reactions, precog, speed, and reflexes,
> EMS sasukes precog puts him above the likes of KCM narutos reactions who was struggling to keep up to V1 Juubi,
> so madara is already above kcm naruto, ems sasuke and tobirama,
> no reason why he isnt aboove kcm minato either,


And now this is bullshit. 'EMS Madara lacks the feats so I'll just bullshit and say that he is superior to EMS Sasuke without any real evidence, then go onto claim he's better than KCM Minato, Tobirama, and KCM Naruto!'


> you need to understand that speed =/= reactions,
> speed may help you react better, but that doesnt mean everything,
> Tobirama is much faster than madara, yet not only did he fail to blitz him,, but got shat on by a much slower character, this alone should comepltely refute your point


Tobirama could blitz Madara without all of his upgrades since he was able to kill Izuna before Izuna could react. And Izuna and Madara were said to be equals in nearly everything, remember?

All you're doing is putting Hashirama and Madara on a pedestal and you don't even realize it.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> And since Senjutsu was not restricted for Minato then I guess he can try to enter it and if/once he does he can combine it with Madara's PS to form SM Kyuusano.



 Considering Minato's lack of proficiency using Senjutsu, it's not guaranteed that he'd be apply Senjutsu to his Kurama Avatar or he wouldn't have needed BSM Naruto's help with applying Senjutsu to his Rasengan.



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> Not even close. Hashirama's primary boost was his ninjutsu, not any other areas like Toad Sage Mode.



* Wrong. *

 Hashirama outright compared Naruto's SM to his own meaning Hashirama's SM is at least on par with Naruto's which means it does boost every area including his reflexes.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara is an arrogant ass. He didn't even know that he could receive permanent injuries from a Gudodama since he didn't participate in the fight.



cheap excuse. kishi had madara say that for a reason. how wouldnt he know. no one knows more about SOP powers than madara. 



> To what? If the barrier goes up immediately there won't be ANY warping of the Bijudama.



dont care kishi wasnt specific. all he said is minato can carry 1 without markings. so can tobirama 



> Again, to WHAT? With the barrier up immediately it means that Minato nor Tobirama can teleport anything anywhere.



again on panel tobirama said he can teleport one. how kishi wanted to have him do it. i couldnt care less. it was stated on panel 



> Tobriama and Naruto were able to hit Juubito since while as an Edo Tensei Tobirama had managed to tag Juubito *after being torn in half.* Do you have this much cognitive dissonance to ignore that little fact?



explain why a clone cant do what tobirama as an ET did. lol i guess u think clones are unable to take a hit while simply touchign their opponent. which is all tagging requires 



> A clone? You mean the same things that are destroyed by a single attack? Yeah, THAT'D get the tag on! Oh wait, it wouldn't.



yes a it would jubito destroys it. and it touches juubito not hard to get. they both hit each other. or tobirama clone simply need put its hands up. juubito touches those hands he is marked 



> Or Juubito just regenerates and he keeps attacking.



he didnt regen from a mere rasengan quickly. you want to compare budda to rasengan now??



> And then he lures them in and slams them.



yet it took him time to do this against EMS sasuke and BM naruto. this team vastly outclasses those 2 



> First of all, EMS Madara can't use Sage Mode. He doesn't have the body modifications which makes it possible. Secondly, EMS Madara can't use Enton, that's an ability that Sasuke solely has. Nagato's attacks are useless. Hashirama's Buddha is in slow motion and would be nuked. Kabuto is useless.



lol you are a joke. madara isnt using sage mode. kabuto is. why cant kabuto simply release senjutsu making the susanoo senjutsu. didnt naruto do that when he combined his rasengan with minato rasnegan ?? wow your fandom is strong and for no reason as well 



> Or Juubito can stop them in their tracks, blitz them and turn them into ribbons before they realized he moved.



yes because in the manga he blitz EMS sasuke and BM naruto right?? oh wait no he didnt. they could track him. EMS madara, hashirama, BM minato are all on that level. why on earth would they be getting blitz??



> And you forget Obito was only dicking around.



so what would make him serious in this match up ????



> Oh wait you're one of the guys who thinks Hashirama could probably beat him on his own.



i dont think that. -snip-


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> cheap excuse. kishi had madara say that for a reason. how wouldnt he know. no one knows more about SOP powers than madara.


Madara knows about the Rinnegan Dojutsu, but NOT the Gudodama. The second he attacks without knowledge means he'd be evicerated. And note, Icegaze, NO ONE believes Madara could beat Juubito even after getting Hashirama's Sage Mode.




> dont care kishi wasnt specific. all he said is minato can carry 1 without markings. so can tobirama


No, since they already set up markings outside the barrier, they could teleport the Bijudama outside it.




> again on panel tobirama said he can teleport one. how kishi wanted to have him do it. i couldnt care less. it was stated on panel


Since he already had a tag OUTSIDE the barrier. Is that too hard to understand?




> explain why a clone cant do what tobirama as an ET did. lol i guess u think clones are unable to take a hit while simply touchign their opponent. which is all tagging requires


Since a clone can't touch him without being destroyed. Tobirama as an ET still had a physical body left to tag Juubito after being cut in half.




> yes a it would jubito destroys it. and it touches juubito not hard to get. they both hit each other. or tobirama clone simply need put its hands up. juubito touches those hands he is marked


Or Juubito while blitzes just extends his Gudodama as a lance and pierces the Tobirama clone. Or rips it into pieces. You really like downplaying him.




> he didnt regen from a mere rasengan quickly. you want to compare budda to rasengan now??


He wasn't even troubled by the Senjutsu Rasengan that hit his back. And yes, he will regenerate.




> yet it took him time to do this against EMS sasuke and BM naruto. this team vastly outclasses those 2


In numbers. But EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto (Forgot that point didn't you) outclass them in actual TEAMWORK and synergy. Not to mention Juubito was focusing on breaking them, not killing them. Not to mention Naruto having the chakra of the Biju's which he could draw out of Juubito and start the chakra tug of war...which the team lacks. Forgot that point, huh?




> lol you are a joke. madara isnt using sage mode. kabuto is. why cant kabuto simply release senjutsu making the susanoo senjutsu. didnt naruto do that when he combined his rasengan with minato rasnegan ?? wow your fandom is strong and for no reason as well


Ah, misunderstood. But still, wouldn't be enough. Without the Biju Chakra's, there's literally no way to stop Juubito since he'll just regenerate from everything.




> yes because in the manga he blitz EMS sasuke and BM naruto right?? oh wait no he didnt. they could track him. EMS madara, hashirama, BM minato are all on that level. why on earth would they be getting blitz??


They could track him since Juubito was dicking around. And BSM Naruto (not BM, stop ignoring he combined Sage and Biju Mode) has superior senses to Madara, Hashirama, and Minato due to combining chakra and evil sensing. 




> so what would make him serious in this match up ????


Since Naruto isn't there, he has no reason to dick around. Remember, the only reason why he didn't end everything is because he wanted Naruto to break.




> i dont think that. love how u invent shit when you dont have a point. is some1 butthurt?


You made the claim that SM Hashirama + BM Minato alone could defeat him. When that's a vast underestimation of Juubito and overestimation of them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> * Wrong. *
> 
> Hashirama outright compared Naruto's SM to his own meaning Hashirama's SM is at least on par with Naruto's which means it does boost every area including his reflexes.


...when was that? Hashirama never saw Naruto's Sage Mode.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

hashirama in base only said BM naruto chakra was comparable to his own 

anyone forgetting how easily kabuto could use white rage which juubito cant negate. used properly it could leave juubito very open for the likes of BM naruto which would be out of range to teleport SM hashirama attack into juubito face


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hashirama in base only said BM naruto chakra was comparable to his own


Wrong, he was talking about all the chakra Naruto had given out. Not Naruto's chakra on its own. He compared that volume Naruto had given out to his own.


> anyone forgetting how easily kabuto could use white rage which juubito cant negate. used properly it could leave juubito very open for the likes of BM naruto which would be out of range to teleport SM hashirama attack into juubito face


White Rage you think is even going to be a factor her?! Kabuto, Itachi, and Nagato are NON-FACTORS. They're blitzed and killed before they even realize it. Sage Mode Hashiram inflicts damage...Juubito regenerates.

So tell me, how do they put him down indefinitely WITHOUT yanking the Biju's out? Or are you giving Minato the Biju Chakras Naruto had?


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara knows about the Rinnegan Dojutsu, but NOT the Gudodama. The second he attacks without knowledge means he'd be evicerated. And note, Icegaze, NO ONE believes Madara could beat Juubito even after getting Hashirama's Sage Mode.



on panel kishi stated madara with Sm could therefore he can. simple as that. whether you believe it or not is entirely your problem. considering when madara final became the juubi jin he soooo horrendously outclassed juubito it isnt far fetched to see why an Sm madara cant beat juubito. or at least have jutsu to stop him 



> No, since they already set up markings outside the barrier, they could teleport the Bijudama outside it.



then why cant they do that before the barrier is set up??? who says juubito uses that off the bat??? convienent much for obito perhaps??? 




> Since he already had a tag OUTSIDE the barrier. Is that too hard to understand?



the match doesnt start off the bat with the barrier set up is it too hard to understnd???



> Since a clone can't touch him without being destroyed. Tobirama as an ET still had a physical body left to tag Juubito after being cut in half.



then you got to prove he tagged him once after juubito ran through him. considering he hit juubito in 6 different places while juubito ran through him in 1 hit. 



> Or Juubito while blitzes just extends his Gudodama as a lance and pierces the Tobirama clone. Or rips it into pieces. You really like downplaying him.



odd he didnt do that to tobirama clone, or Sm naruto. or sasuke hmmmmm



> He wasn't even troubled by the Senjutsu Rasengan that hit his back. And yes, he will regenerate.



yh he wasnt but. Sm rasengan<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<wait for it<<<<<<<budda 




> In numbers. But EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto (Forgot that point didn't you) outclass them in actual TEAMWORK and synergy. Not to mention Juubito was focusing on breaking them, not killing them. Not to mention Naruto having the chakra of the Biju's which he could draw out of Juubito and start the chakra tug of war...which the team lacks. Forgot that point, huh?



juubito isnt immortal. killing him with sheer force is still possible. do provide panels saying juubito is immortal ill wait for it 




> Ah, misunderstood. But still, wouldn't be enough. Without the Biju Chakra's, there's literally no way to stop Juubito since he'll just regenerate from everything.



regen is nice and all but if u are consistenly battered you will die 



> They could track him since Juubito was dicking around. And BSM Naruto (not BM, stop ignoring he combined Sage and Biju Mode) has superior senses to Madara, Hashirama, and Minato due to combining chakra and evil sensing.



prove he has superior senses to hashirama. also if juubito was dicking around why wont he here?? 



> Since Naruto isn't there, he has no reason to dick around. Remember, the only reason why he didn't end everything is because he wanted Naruto to break.



why wont he want minato his master to break???



> You made the claim that SM Hashirama + BM Minato alone could defeat him. When that's a vast underestimation of Juubito and overestimation of them.


[/QUOTE]

i stand by my claim. juubito is the same guy getting hit twice by hirashin after being tagged. 

now if this was juudara ill agree he mops with neg difficulty but juubito. please....those 2 should beat him. no reason they shouldnt. when madara with just Sm thought he could beat juubito within a short time frame. 

kishi had madara say that for a reason. btw

BM minato is essentially BM naruto with hirashin. and the ability to use sage mode for a very short time probably 1 attack like he showed on panel. bijuu avatar doesnt prevent him from doing that. since his kyuubi half wont be opposed to him gathering sage mode chakra. 

then again minato doesnt need to attack. he simply needs to make sure budda gets behind a marked juubito. if juubito struggled to block a mere dual rasengan from 2 bijuu avatars. budda would pound his defense to the ground especially if its a suprise attack


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## Bonly (Feb 27, 2015)

GearsUp said:


> I see this topic has gone on for 5+ pages. this must mean some -snip- thinks obito has a chance here?



Ouch that hurt bit . It's not much of a stretch to think Obito has a shot here


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> on panel kishi stated madara with Sm could therefore he can. simple as that. whether you believe it or not is entirely your problem. considering when madara final became the juubi jin he soooo horrendously outclassed juubito it isnt far fetched to see why an Sm madara cant beat juubito. or at least have jutsu to stop him


Juubi Jin Obito is still on a far higher tier than Sage Mode Madara. Anyone with eyes can see that. Madara overestimates himself a LOT. If you honestly believe SM Edo Madara can defeat Juubi Jin Obito, you have a lot of problems and honestly should question your cognitive dissonance.




> then why cant they do that before the barrier is set up??? who says juubito uses that off the bat??? convienent much for obito perhaps???


Since the barrier is way too big! Its nearly a hundred kilometers wide! The best Minato has done is a 10-15 kilometer tag network. That's it. Obito flies up, shoots the rods out and activates the barrier while everyone tries to attack and bam, they're all trapped without a chance to counter.





> the match doesnt start off the bat with the barrier set up is it too hard to understnd???


And the match doesn't start off the bat with Minato and Tobirama getting a vast Hiraishin network up. 




> then you got to prove he tagged him once after juubito ran through him. considering he hit juubito in 6 different places while juubito ran through him in 1 hit.


Tobirama explicitly said he tagged him AFTER Juubito eviscerated him. 




> odd he didnt do that to tobirama clone, or Sm naruto. or sasuke hmmmmm


...he did do that to Sasuke and Naruto, Naruto bailed them out by grabbing Minato with a chakra arm remember?




> yh he wasnt but. Sm rasengan<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<wait for it<<<<<<<budda


And Obito still regenerates.





> juubito isnt immortal. killing him with sheer force is still possible. do provide panels saying juubito is immortal ill wait for it


I don't fucking need to. The only people capable of outright killing a Juubi Jin? Kaguya, Eight Gated Guy, RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke. That's it. No one on this list can kill a Juubi Jin and its stupid to ignore what it takes to actually do so!





> regen is nice and all but if u are consistenly battered you will die


Only if you're not a Juubi Jin. There's only four people who can kill a Juubi Jin. None of them are in this fight.




> prove he has superior senses to hashirama. also if juubito was dicking around why wont he here??


Since Naruto has fucking evil and chakra sensing in Biju Sage Mode! Juubito won't dick around since Naruto isn't there. And he's bloodlusted here.




> why wont he want minato his master to break???


Since Obito was fixated on making Naruto break. Not Minato. Did you even read the manga Icegaze?



> i stand by my claim. juubito is the same guy getting hit twice by hirashin after being tagged.


Juubito was tagged after he already had basically killed Tobirama. If Tobirama was alive...no tag.


> now if this was juudara ill agree he mops with neg difficulty but juubito. please....those 2 should beat him. no reason they shouldnt. when madara with just Sm thought he could beat juubito within a short time frame.
> 
> kishi had madara say that for a reason. btw


Alright, you lvoe ignoring and downplaying Juubito's feats. Juudara is only 'superior' to Juubito since he has a more complete Juubi.

Juubito's feats show he can wipe the floor with everyone here even while dicking around. If bloodlusted? Barrier then Quad Bijudama. its that simple. Your downplay is pathetic and always has been.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...when was that? Hashirama never saw Naruto's Sage Mode.



 I have a lot of searching to do, but I'll start with an easier scan in the mean time.

 Tobirama explicitly said he tagged him AFTER Juubito eviscerated him.

 Tobirama's statement was in relationship to Naruto's ability to fight alongside Tobirama, yes, but also that he felt the need to mention Naruto's mastery of Hermit Mode along with the context of the situation which was discussing Hermit mode and also to show that Naruto is approaching Hashirama's level, so this can be a fair comparison.

 But yeah, I'll search for the scan because I did reread this part of the manga and remember finding Hashirama's statement about Naruto's SM.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I have a lot of searching to do, but I'll start with an easier scan in the mean time.
> 
> Tobirama explicitly said he tagged him AFTER Juubito eviscerated him.
> 
> ...


Hashirama never saw Naruto's Sage Mode. Tobirama merely meant Naruto could use Sage Mode like his brother.

So you believe Hashirama could do Frog Kata's like Naruto can? Toss boss summons without Mokuton?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama never saw Naruto's Sage Mode. Tobirama merely meant Naruto could use Sage Mode like his brother.
> 
> So you believe Hashirama could do * Frog * Kata's like Naruto can? Toss boss summons without Mokuton?



 Key word is frog. 

 There's likely certain traits that applies to each Sage Mode depending on where you learn it, but Tobirama was commenting on Naruto's mastery of Senjutsu meaning, his ability to balance and use natural energy within his body and Tobirama compared it to Hashirama's by saying it was just like his brother. 

 Balancing natural energy and using it to augment your techniques is what determines your physical boosts that come from Sage Mode. Since Naruto's is compared to Hashirama's, it's only logical that every stat of Hashirama's was boosted as well.

 We've never seen Hashirama toss boss summons because that was never needed considering the only foes he fought were Juubito and Madara where physical strength is less important than his ninjutsu's strength to overpower mostly Madara's Susanoo. Even SM Naruto never used physical strength at all during the War Arc, so in all likelihood, Kishimoto just didn't care about that.

 And as I already said, Frog Kata is only considered a specific trait towards Sage Mode though logically, considering it's just surrounding your body with an aura of Natural Energy, at the very least, most perfect sages should be able to utilize that technique though Kabuto has never used it and it's clear that all of his physical traits were boosted or Itachi wouldn't have feared it or the fact that Orochimaru wouldn't have tried so hard to even attain it. But most likely, Kishimoto forgot about Frog Katas considering SM Naruto never used it all during the War Arc. Even BSM Naruto never used it, so are we to assume BSM Naruto's Senjutsu is inferior to SM Naruto's Senjutsu just because he can't use Frog Katas?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Key word is frog.
> 
> There's likely certain traits that applies to each Sage Mode depending on where you learn it, but Tobirama was commenting on Naruto's mastery of Senjutsu meaning, his ability to balance and use natural energy within his body and Tobirama compared it to Hashirama's by saying it was just like his brother.
> 
> ...


Kishimoto had Naruto use Frog Kata's twice in the War Arc, he use the Toad Slap to free Son Goku and said he'd use it against Juubito before the Quadruple Bijudama. Naruto (and Jiraiya) were the only Sages who learned to weaponize Natural Energy itself because their training focused on it. SM Kabuto and SM Hashirama showed no capability to do it, so thus, they can't do it.

And Naruto's establishing Sage Mode moment was tossing the boss rhino into the stratosphere, and then tossing Kurama in their battle. Kishimoto didn't forget it. Its not too hard to believe that Naruto's Sage Mode was different than Hashirama's and Kabuto's due to where and how he was trained. Naruto's Sage Mode enhanced his strength, speed, and durability, Kabuto's enhanced his agility and speed, and Hashirama's enhanced his healing factor and ninjutsu. All three enhanced ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu, but physical increases differed.


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## ShadoLord (Feb 27, 2015)

The team definitely takes the win; probably mid/high-diff, leaning more towards mid-diff tbh


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Night Raid Chelsea said:


> The team definitely takes the win; probably mid/high-diff, leaning more towards mid-diff tbh


They don't. They have nothing to kill Juubito with or extract the Biju. Juubito is meanwhile faster, has far more firepower, has the haxed Gudodama, and is far more durable.


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## ShadoLord (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> They don't. They have nothing to kill Juubito with or extract the Biju. Juubito is meanwhile faster, has far more firepower, has the haxed Gudodama, and is far more durable.



If you speak of firepower, check out Hashirama, Madara, and KM Minato, with Tobirama's support of FTG. Then you got Prime Nagato and his Rinnegan, I'm sure they will beat Juubito.


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## ShadoLord (Feb 28, 2015)

might be underestimating Juubito though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Night Raid Chelsea said:


> If you speak of firepower, check out Hashirama, Madara, and KM Minato, with Tobirama's support of FTG. Then you got Prime Nagato and his Rinnegan, I'm sure they will beat Juubito.


Remember what one Juubi Bijudama can do? 

One small egg-shaped Juubi Bijudama eclipses EVERYTHING Hashirama, Madara, BM Minato, and Nagato bring to the table.

Juubito can make four of THIS caliber Bijudama though: One small egg-shaped Juubi Bijudama eclipses EVERYTHING Hashirama, Madara, BM Minato, and Nagato bring to the table. which, when it explodes takes a bunch of the continent with it.

Juubito can make four of them, and is undamaged by their explosion. So you honestly think Hashirama, Madara, BM Minato, and Nagato can scratch him?


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## ShadoLord (Feb 28, 2015)

well, Naruto's Km and Sasuke's PS combine manage to beat Obito, so I imagine it quite possible for Hashirama and Madara to pull off the same feats.


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## Ersa (Feb 28, 2015)

A god tier defeating a group of high tiers and top tiers?

Must be impossible, people have to be overrating him.

ck


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Night Raid Chelsea said:


> well, Naruto's Km and Sasuke's PS combine manage to beat Obito, so I imagine it quite possible for Hashirama and Madara to pull off the same feats.


Biju Sage Mode Naruto and Sasuke's PS on it inflicted a flesh wound...that they used to _rip the Biju out_ since Naruto had the Biju Chakra's in him. The wound was superficial, would have regenerated if not for Naruto having the Biju Chakras.


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## sabre320 (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah, but without Naruto there he would be useless. He couldn't save everyone if not for Naruto having to link the chakra with all the shrouds he gave out.
> 
> All you're making is Minato puts his tags around in an area far smaller than the barrier that goes up.
> 
> ...



why are you conveniently ignoring that unlike killerbee minato was stated and shown to share chakra as his skillset and was extremely skilled at it and kurama stated that they were sharing chakra just like minato!! just on a far greater scale ...kurama thought only people who were bornwith him could gain control and resonate with his chakra later we saw himself surprised that minato gained perfect resonance with his chakra so lets see we have both skill set of chakra sharing stated to be just like minato perfect resonence and control whats left is the uzumaki blood hence why i mentioned naruto can share his chakra on a  greater scale e.g
thousands of people and in this matchup there are only a handfull//...


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## ShadoLord (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Biju Sage Mode Naruto and Sasuke's PS on it inflicted a flesh wound...that they used to _rip the Biju out_ since Naruto had the Biju Chakra's in him. The wound was superficial, would have regenerated if not for Naruto having the Biju Chakras.



I guess I am underestimating Juubito here


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> why are you conveniently ignoring that unlike killerbee minato was stated and shown to share chakra as his skillset and was extremely skilled at it and kurama stated that they were sharing chakra just like minato!! just on a far greater scale ...kurama thought only people who were bornwith him could gain control and resonate with his chakra later we saw himself surprised that minato gained perfect resonance with his chakra so lets see we have both skill set of chakra sharing stated to be just like minato perfect resonence and control whats left is the uzumaki blood hence why i mentioned naruto can share his chakra on a  greater scale e.g
> thousands of people and in this matchup there are only a handfull//...


Nothing has changed, sabre320. Minato achieving Tailed Beast Mode does NOT give him the same powers that Naruto has with it. He can't share chakra as freely or link it as Naruto. Kurama flat out said that is ONLY NARUTO who can do it. Not Minato who has a similar method. Not Killer Bee who is a Perfect Jinchuriki just like Minato. *Just. Fucking. Naruto.* Is that so hard to understand?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kishimoto had Naruto use Frog Kata's twice in the War Arc, he use the Toad Slap to free Son Goku and said he'd use it against Juubito before the Quadruple Bijudama. Naruto (and Jiraiya) were the only Sages who learned to weaponize Natural Energy itself because their training focused on it. SM Kabuto and SM Hashirama showed no capability to do it, so thus, they can't do it.



 Guess I gotta go back and read that part.

 Any scan of BSM Naruto claiming that?



> And Naruto's establishing Sage Mode moment was tossing the boss rhino into the stratosphere, and then tossing Kurama in their battle.



 I gotta go reread that fight then. I didn't notice that.



> Kishimoto didn't forget it. Its not too hard to believe that Naruto's Sage Mode was different than Hashirama's and Kabuto's due to where and how he was trained. Naruto's Sage Mode enhanced his strength, speed, and durability, Kabuto's enhanced his agility and speed, and Hashirama's enhanced his healing factor and ninjutsu. All three enhanced ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu, but physical increases differed.



 I never claimed they were exactly the same, however, all of their Sage Modes are related in the fact that * all of the users uses Natural Energy to enhance their skills. * No Senjutsu is different in that regard though yes, the place you train at does effect the way you train and what techniques/ fighting styles are learnt, but the concept of using Natural Energy, drawing it in, and the amount of Natural Energy that the user can use at a time is related.

 To start with:

 Naruto coaxing out the Biju chakras with the ones he has inside him then latching on.

 Suggesting that all physical attributes are enhanced by drawing in natural energy to augment your strength, agility, durability, ninjutsu, etc.

 Link removed

 This is just simply suggesting that greater mastery in Sage Mode relates to how well the body can balance the amount of natural energy within his body and how effectively he can draw it in. This ties into Tobirama's comment as he commented on the mastery of Naruto's Sage Mode and compared it to his brother's. Since Naruto's Mastery is in relationship to the ability of using Natural Energy, then it's only reasonable that Hashirama's ability to use Natural Energy is at least on par with Naruto's.

 You may claim, "That doesn't really determine what stats are boosted though, just that Natural Energy can boost certain stats," however, take a look at this:

 Link removed

 Naruto himself didn't know his durability improved however it clearly did, suggesting that Natural Energy naturally boosts all of your stats, regardless of what your focus is, so that should at least imply that all of Hashirama's stats were boosted quite a bit.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Guess I gotta go back and read that part.
> 
> Any scan of BSM Naruto claiming that?


Sage Mode Naruto, but Biju Sage Mode Naruto is just the same thing with Biju Mode enhancements.





> I never claimed they were exactly the same, however, all of their Sage Modes are related in the fact that * all of the users uses Natural Energy to enhance their skills. * No Senjutsu is different in that regard though yes, the place you train at does effect the way you train and what techniques/ fighting styles are learnt, but the concept of using Natural Energy, drawing it in, and the amount of Natural Energy that the user can use at a time is related.
> 
> To start with:
> 
> ...


That is a good point, but Hashirama's Sage Mode seemed just as 'squishy' as his normal body. After all, seen through the barrage Sage Mode Madara took (which was just Hashirama's Sage Mode) and how damaged he was...compared to Naruto who was stomped and slashed by Kurama while he was in Sage Mode but didn't get a scratch?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sage Mode Naruto, but Biju Sage Mode Naruto is just the same thing with Biju Mode enhancements.



 Very true.





> That is a good point, but Hashirama's Sage Mode seemed just as 'squishy' as his normal body. After all, seen through the barrage Sage Mode Madara took (which was just Hashirama's Sage Mode) and how damaged he was...compared to Naruto who was stomped and slashed by Kurama while he was in Sage Mode but didn't get a scratch?



 I personally don't believe SM Madara could use Senjutsu effectively. We've seen Anko and Sasuke use Senjutsu and while Cursed Seal does boost every stat, that more or less has to do with the actual Seal rather than Sasuke and Anko doing the actual absorption of natural energy.

 Madara in this case, doesn't have that ability, so perhaps he couldn't absorb Natural Energy as effectively due to not having the skill to begin with? The only reason I see Madara managing to handle the Senjutsu chakra was due to Hashirama's Cells, making him compatible to Senjutsu like Sasuke and Anko was to the Seal even though he doesn't display as much proficiency with Senjutsu like Hashirama does.

 I don't know, just a theory to try to make sense of the bullshit Kishi put in the manga.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Remember what one Juubi Bijudama can do?
> 
> One small egg-shaped Juubi Bijudama eclipses EVERYTHING Hashirama, Madara, BM Minato, and Nagato bring to the table.
> 
> ...



 Pretty much. Those Juubidama had to have been approaching the size of SM Hashirama's Buddha.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Juubi Jin Obito is still on a far higher tier than Sage Mode Madara. Anyone with eyes can see that. Madara overestimates himself a LOT. If you honestly believe SM Edo Madara can defeat Juubi Jin Obito, you have a lot of problems and honestly should question your cognitive dissonance.



cute words -snip-. kishi implied it simple as that. kishi must believe so. 



> Since the barrier is way too big! Its nearly a hundred kilometers wide! The best Minato has done is a 10-15 kilometer tag network. That's it. Obito flies up, shoots the rods out and activates the barrier while everyone tries to attack and bam, they're all trapped without a chance to counter.



kishi on panel had minato say he can carry 1 without marking. and tobirama can carry 1. therefore they can. simple as that. considering they dont have to leave the battlefield why are we discounting the obvious tags they have outside the battlefield. its no different from obito in BD using kamui to get behind a person. 




> And the match doesn't start off the bat with Minato and Tobirama getting a vast Hiraishin network up.



so then both would take a small fraction of time to either set up a network or juubito to set up the barrier. 2 people can set up a network vs one person. 


> Tobirama explicitly said he tagged him AFTER Juubito eviscerated him.



so he tagged him 6 times in that fraction of time. its worse for juubito then just so u know not better. 6 times in 6 different places mind you. also the panel you provided doesnt have tobirama saying i tagged him after he ran through me. do show the panel where it says that.  cant even argue properly 



> ...he did do that to Sasuke and Naruto, Naruto bailed them out by grabbing Minato with a chakra arm remember?



yes so it means the people in this match up can be bailed out by the 2 teleporters. you are making my point 



> And Obito still regenerates.




any feat of juubito regenrating something of budda level? considering juudara after absorbing the tree still wasnt immortal. quite obviously juubito can be killed 



> I don't fucking need to. The only people capable of outright killing a Juubi Jin? Kaguya, Eight Gated Guy, RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke. That's it. No one on this list can kill a Juubi Jin and its stupid to ignore what it takes to actually do so!



-snip- is being underestimated. do not put juubito in the same league as juudara and above. he is far far beneath that level as kishi had no issues showing such. 




> Only if you're not a Juubi Jin. There's only four people who can kill a Juubi Jin. None of them are in this fight.



8 gates gai isnt a juubi jin. he almost killed juudara who laughably outclasses juubito 




> Since Naruto has fucking evil and chakra sensing in Biju Sage Mode! Juubito won't dick around since Naruto isn't there. And he's bloodlusted here.



and juubito movements werent fast enough to get past EMS sasuke.why should anyone here struggle to track his movements?




> Since Obito was fixated on making Naruto break. Not Minato. Did you even read the manga Icegaze?



what makes u think he wont be fixated on making minato break in this match up. since there is no naruto the next closest to him would be minato. his master 



> Juubito was tagged after he already had basically killed Tobirama. If Tobirama was alive...no tag.



tobirama tagged him 6 times right after in 6 different places. i dont see why he cant do that without getting biscetted. considering as you said he did that after being split in half. which means within the time frame he was split in half to when juubito moved past him. he hit juubito in 6 different places. its actually much worse. you are helping my case 



> Alright, you lvoe ignoring and downplaying Juubito's feats. Juudara is only 'superior' to Juubito since he has a more complete Juubi.



which makes him superior like i said. much more so 



> Juubito's feats show he can wipe the floor with everyone here even while dicking around. If bloodlusted? Barrier then Quad Bijudama. its that simple. Your downplay is pathetic and always has been.



-snip- they only needed to get the alliance out cuz they wont survive it. hashirama wasnt worried about his wellbeing or was tobirama or minato. 

again on panel minato said he can carry 1 *without fucking markings!!! it was said *
tobirama said he can carry one. again why would that be disallowed they arent leaving the battlefield 

your overhype of a basic tech like quad bijuudama against this opposistion is laughable. 

when minato can simply fire his own BD into that forcing it to detonate prevemtively giving this people more than enough time to survive

Tobirama explicitly said he tagged him AFTER Juubito eviscerated him.

how is that much smaller than the barrier juubito set up? and if it is minato threw the markings there with no effort in base. why would minato and tobirama trying to set up markings not exceed the range of juubito barrier. its pointless anywayz. their markings outside the battlefield arent disallowed since you know they arent leaving the battlefield


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## sabre320 (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Nothing has changed, sabre320. Minato achieving Tailed Beast Mode does NOT give him the same powers that Naruto has with it. He can't share chakra as freely or link it as Naruto. Kurama flat out said that is ONLY NARUTO who can do it. Not Minato who has a similar method. Not Killer Bee who is a Perfect Jinchuriki just like Minato. *Just. Fucking. Naruto.* Is that so hard to understand?



minato was stated and shown to share chakra as his skillset and was extremely skilled at it and kurama stated that they were sharing chakra just like minato!!kurama thought only people who were bornwith him could gain control and resonate with his chakra later we saw himself surprised that minato gained perfect resonance with his chakra so lets see we have both skill set of chakra sharing stated to be just like minato perfect resonence and control 

Minato was stated to share chakra in the exact same method by kurama as naruto he has the skillset was skilled in it i am not just saying its because he is a perfect jinchuriki is that so hard to understand!!?


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2015)

sabre is right yet only SSM12 seems to argue the wisdom of sabre words. 
minato can share chakra. how else did tobirama save fodders using minato hirashin marks????

they had minato chakra. or are u assuming naruto somehow shared minato chakra?? how would he go about sharing minato chakra if i may ask. we know he can share his own, but not another persons chakra


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> cute words -snip-. kishi implied it simple as that. kishi must believe so.


Or Kishi was making a red herring. He does that. SM Madara has no feats which even approach Juubito's.




> kishi on panel had minato say he can carry 1 without marking. and tobirama can carry 1. therefore they can. simple as that. considering they dont have to leave the battlefield why are we discounting the obvious tags they have outside the battlefield. its no different from obito in BD using kamui to get behind a person.


If they teleport out of the battlefield, they loose. Especially since they have no tag to go back to. And no, Minato said he couldn't TAG one of the Bijudama's, but he needs a tag to get it out. That's how Hiraishin WORKS. Without tags, there is no teleportation.





> so then both would take a small fraction of time to either set up a network or juubito to set up the barrier. 2 people can set up a network vs one person.


 Minato and Tobirama's network is far smaller than the barrier Juubito made. Think about it Icegaze.



> so he tagged him 6 times in that fraction of time. its worse for juubito then just so u know not better. 6 times in 6 different places mind you. also the panel you provided doesnt have tobirama saying i tagged him after he ran through me. do show the panel where it says that.  cant even argue properly


Tobirama only tagged Obito in the first place since he was an Edo Tensei who can shrug off the damage. Is that so hard to grasp?




> yes so it means the people in this match up can be bailed out by the 2 teleporters. you are making my point


Who have tags in a smaller area than the barrier.





> any feat of juubito regenrating something of budda level? considering juudara after absorbing the tree still wasnt immortal. quite obviously juubito can be killed


We see how a Juubi Jin can have his body regenerate after being hit by Night Guy. An attack that makes Shinsusenju look like a joke. And Juudara was close to immortality after absorbing the tree.

Juubito's shown the same regeneration as Juudara. So he can survive and regenerate everything that is launched against him. Considering you think Shinsusenju can kill him (when it barely stripped Susanoo off Kurama), your downplay is getting REALLY fucking annoying. 
-snip- is being underestimated. do not put juubito in the same league as juudara and above. he is far far beneath that level as kishi had no issues showing such. 






> 8 gates gai isnt a juubi jin. he almost killed juudara who laughably outclasses juubito


It was agreed that Juubito could beat Eight Gated Guy the same way Juudara almost did. He can't touch the Gudodama which had to beteleported away, remember? And...its not like Eight Gated Guy is above everyone on this list too right? Oh wait you like to ignore that to make Juubito, who is a God Tier, NOT a God Tier right?





> and juubito movements werent fast enough to get past EMS sasuke.why should anyone here struggle to track his movements?


Since Juubito was dicking around and EMS Sasuke's eyes just got good enough to see the dicking around speed?





> what makes u think he wont be fixated on making minato break in this match up. since there is no naruto the next closest to him would be minato. his master


Since he has no reason or need to break Minato. Naruto is his opposite, Naruto he considered his 'past self'. He wanted to break Naruto so he can prove he was right. That was blatantly said and shown on panel. He doesn't give two shits about Minato other than mocking him and calling him rather scatterbrained. 




> tobirama tagged him 6 times right after in 6 different places. i dont see why he cant do that without getting biscetted. considering as you said he did that after being split in half. which means within the time frame he was split in half to when juubito moved past him. he hit juubito in 6 different places. its actually much worse. you are helping my case


Tobirama landed the tags after being cut in half. Seriously, that's the sequence that it even HAPPENED.




> which makes him superior like i said. much more so


No, only by a small amount. And look at portrayal: Juudara was countered and turned to a ragdoll by everyone while Juubito was portrayed as nearly invincible and was lobbing continent destroying Bijudama's around while not being damaged. Juudara was ultimately defeated by Black Zetsu...while Juubito had to get his Biju sucked out to be defeated. Its quite clear who had the better performance.




> -snip- they only needed to get the alliance out cuz they wont survive it. hashirama wasnt worried about his wellbeing or was tobirama or minato.


Tobirama and Minato were since they could be permanently killed by Juubito, remember? Hashirama didn't know about that, nor did Minato.


> again on panel minato said he can carry 1 *without fucking markings!!! it was said *
> tobirama said he can carry one. again why would that be disallowed they arent leaving the battlefield


No, they couldn't place markings on the Bijudama and teleport them, they had to physically touch them to teleport them to pre-made tags outside the barrier. "I can't mark them", Minato says. And Hiraishin without tags is impossible Icegaze, the only way Hiraishin even WORKS is the seal formula on an object or person.


> your overhype of a basic tech like quad bijuudama against this opposistion is laughable.


...basic...tech?! Okay, this downplay is fucking ridiculous and stupid! ONE FUCKING JUUBI BIJUDAMA IS POWERFUL ENOUGH TO DESTROY A CONTINENT AND OBITO CREATED FOUR SIMULTANEOUSLY, BALANCING OUT BLACK AND WHITE CHAKRA TO A 8:2 RATIO INSTANTLY!

I can't fucking believe this...


> when minato can simply fire his own BD into that forcing it to detonate prevemtively giving this people more than enough time to survive


And Juubito uses one Gudodama to block it, making Minato's attempt laughably useless.


> (2)
> 
> how is that much smaller than the barrier juubito set up? and if it is minato threw the markings there with no effort in base. why would minato and tobirama trying to set up markings not exceed the range of juubito barrier. its pointless anywayz. their markings outside the battlefield arent disallowed since you know they arent leaving the battlefield


Since we saw the barrier Juubito made engulf the size of the Four Yang Barrier without effort?

Icegaze, your downplay is truly getting tedious now.



sabre320 said:


> minato was stated and shown to share chakra as his skillset and was extremely skilled at it and kurama stated that they were sharing chakra just like minato!!kurama thought only people who were bornwith him could gain control and resonate with his chakra later we saw himself surprised that minato gained perfect resonance with his chakra so lets see we have both skill set of chakra sharing stated to be just like minato perfect resonence and control
> 
> Minato was stated to share chakra in the exact same method by kurama as naruto he has the skillset was skilled in it i am not just saying its because he is a perfect jinchuriki is that so hard to understand!!?


Manga: Only Naruto can share and link Kurama's chakra because he was Kurama's Jinchuriki since birth and he has Uzumaki blood. Naruto's the one who transferred Yin Kurama's chakra to everyone, in fact he told Minato he had to concentrate to do so when they fist bumped. Minato didn't do anything there.

And how did Minato get 'perfect resonance', just because he achieved Tailed Beast Mode? 

He can share his normal chakra to everyone, but unlike Naruto, he cannot link it. And he can't share Yin Kurama's chakra because only Naruto can. If Minato could share the chakra, *he would have given Kakashi a cloak to battle Black Zetsu.*


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## sabre320 (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Or Kishi was making a red herring. He does that. SM Madara has no feats which even approach Juubito's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you forget minato was running on empty after the multi ftg? anyways you arent going to budge neither am i lets agree to disagree though i agree juubito is far above sage madara..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Did you forget minato was running on empty after the multi ftg? anyways you arent going to budge neither am i lets agree to disagree though i agree juubito is far above sage madara..


...how can Minato run on empty? He was a Edo Tensei!


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...how can Minato run on empty? He was a Edo Tensei!



It was the reason he couldn't warp to naruto he implied it himself. After the mass ftg warp and getting his chakra sucked by the god tree his edo tensei body needed to regenerate his reserves.

OT: Juubito wins if he goes directly to six yang barrier formation and quad juubidama/god tree manifestation.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> It was the reason he couldn't warp to naruto he implied it himself. After the mass ftg warp and getting his chakra sucked by the god tree his edo tensei body needed to regenerate his reserves.
> 
> OT: Juubito wins if he goes directly to six yang barrier formation and quad juubidama/god tree manifestation.


Didn't Minato say that the tag itself he put on Naruto got absorbed by the tree, making it useless?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2015)

Though I guess Juubito instantly wins if he goes for the Mugen Tsukyomi and Barrier right off the get go. 

 Interesting .... Minato was running empty? I personally might be able to see that considering Minato does have Yang Kurama who's chakra levels can be depleted just like any other Bijuu (besides the Juubi). 

 I'd still like to see the scan of that if anybody doesn't mind posting it.


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## Bonly (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Didn't Minato say that the tag itself he put on Naruto got absorbed by the tree, making it useless?



"Impossible! The FTG I used before and these Branches have sucked up all of my chakra "


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Didn't Minato say that the tag itself he put on Naruto got absorbed by the tree, making it useless?



Nah

Impossible! The FTG I used before and these Branches have sucked up all of my chakra


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2015)

Bonly said:


> "Impossible! The FTG I used before and these Branches have sucked up all of my chakra "



 Oh, thanks for the scan. Surprised I didn't notice that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

...kind of doesn't make sense for Minato as an Edo Tensei to run out of chakra.


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## Bonly (Feb 28, 2015)

Well that's Kishi for ya lol


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...kind of doesn't make sense for Minato as an Edo Tensei to run out of chakra.



 It does if you take into consideration that Minato's primary source of chakra came from Yang Kurama.


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## sabre320 (Feb 28, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Well that's Kishi for ya lol



edo tensei regen chakra but massive chakra drains and using massive amounts can lead them to them being depleted and taking time to recover.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 28, 2015)

Itachi soloes.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Or Kishi was making a red herring. He does that. SM Madara has no feats which even approach Juubito's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



only 1 question since the rest of your post is utter BS. 

who the fuck agreed juubito could beat 8 gate gai???? mind showing me someone else other than you agreeing to such BS?


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## ARGUS (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashriama's reactions are inferior to EMS Sasuke's and Tobirama's, not superior. He's canonically slower than Tobirama, so claiming he's faster and has superior reactions is fallacy.



Yeah No, again you have proven to me that your way of thinking is wrong, 
being faster helps you react better, but that doesnt mean that your reactions are superiior, 
Base Hashiramas reactions are on par with EMS madaras, given the fact that they are equal in most aspects, and EMS madaras sharingan precog can track Tobiramas speed just fine, so hashirama can react to him too, 

make it SM hashirama  and we have canonically seen how he would shit on tobirama in CQC, 



> *Madara's shown he was a sensor since childhood. We see him sensing long distances and sensing when his dad and Izuna showed up.*
> 
> *Madara could sense his father and Izuna arriving, as well as Butsuma and Tobirama arriving before Hashirama did.*


Scans for such claims? because it just seems like fanfic to me 
Madara didnt sense his dad coming, he even wrote on the pebbel to warn hashirama about his dad, not to mention that they both exhanged pebbels with the messages at the same time, 
there was no sensing involved in that incident, nice try though 



> No, you can't. Hashirama has zero sensing feats. You can't apply what Madara did to what Hashirama can do *just because you want him to have things he never shown in the manga.*


All im seeing is either denial from you, when you have failed to counter any logical points at all 
and then im hearing you wine about me ''overrating'' hashirama/madara, 
i have already addressed this same  line multiple times, either counter it or concede 



> He's shown speed in his Susano'o to evade other people before. BM Naruto blitzed him. He did it before during the battle before the Juubi was revived.


Yeah because his susanoo was slower than the avatar, its that simple, 



> It doesn't work that way. Just because they have the same eyes, it doesn't mean they have the same reactions.


sasukes reactions come from his choku tomo, which madara has, 
hence why we an apply the same feat to him 


> You're applying A>B>C logic since you want Sasuke's speed and reactions to be on a lower tier than Madara's so you can apply his feats against Juubito to him. When anyone with a brain would go: hey, if Sasuke could do this, that means his reactions and speed are faster than Madara's.


Uhh No, but then again i have seen you hate on Hashirama/Madara countless times  so im noot surprised to hear this from you, 

you have sasuke reacting to someone with the same eyes as madaras, solely thankks to the choku tomo precog,, yet just because madara didnt face juubito, youre going on at madara being unable to do the same, despite having the same eyes,, smh 
and youre going on about sasuke having superior reactions based on nothing at all 



> Not even close. Hashirama's primary boost was his ninjutsu, not any other areas like Toad Sage Mode.


uhh, No, 
SM boosts everything, be it ninjutsu, reflexes, reactions, speed and power, 
RT madara had enough physical power to knock down the bijuus after gaining SM, yet you have the nerve to tell me that it doesnt boost anything apart from ninjutsu? come on  now, 

going by manga, hashiramas SM is well well above toad Sm 



> No, we can give BM Minato the feat of forming a Tailed Beast Ball since we see him forming one next to Naruto. Madara has the same eyes as Sasuke's, but Sasuke's have the better feats. Thus Sasuke's eyes are better than Madara's.


Nah, BM minato was forming it with naruto, not doing it seperately, 
just goes to show your double standards, smh 
minato can form TBB because he has the same kurama 
so why cant madara have the same choku tomo precog that sasuke has? 



> There is a lot of bias from your post. You've *always* put Hashirama and Madara on pedestals where they don't belong, exaggerate their feats, and apply feats from other characters or from one another to them to justify it when you KNOW there is no on panel evidence to support it. You constantly, consistently act like they were the strongest, fastest shinobi of all times and if BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could 'react to Juubito', they could too! Instead of going 'hey, maybe BMS Naruto and EMS Sasuke are stronger/faster than I thought', you always go that they are weaker, slower, have worst reactions than your two golden boys.


Uhh No, there is no bias there at all, look at my tier list, which unlike yours clearly says otherwise,, 

beating PS-Kurama on your own and forming a fucking valley on your own is a feat that certainly puts him above the likes of BSM naruto, and puts him a good lot above EMS Sasuke, 

PS+Kurama > Kurama avatar, so VOTE Maddara is above the likes of these 2  as well, though BSM naruto can cetainly give him a good fight, 

and dont even mention RT madara, the dude clowned the bijuus inclunding naruto himself, yet youre calling me biased for saying that hes above naruto? Lol No, 

[





> Nearly blitzing a War Arc SM Naruto who had exhausted most of his Sage Chakra (thus giving him lower reactions like we saw in the Pain battle) isn't a good feat. Sasuke was able to get the better and stab Madara through which Madara himself thought was impressive.


Yeah No, naruto was not exhausted of his sage chakra, please stop bringing excuses here, 
madaras shunshin took a steamy dump on even a SM user, yet youre telling me that its nothing, 
and sasuke landed a hit, but does that mean that he has superior reactions? not really when we have seen characters with inferior reactions such as KCM minato and Tobirama, and 7G guy land blows on characters that are mucch much faster, such as Juudara and Jubito 



> Yeha, there is a fucking pedestal. BSM Naruto has better feats than SM Hashirama and VOTE Madara,


What feat puts BSM naruto above these 2? 
landing a blow on juubito and then getting fodderred by a drop slam doesnt put you above a guy that solod the PS and Kyuubi on his own,  forming a valley on the process, as weell as restraining something as powerful as V3 juubi, 
PS+Kyuubi > Kurama avatar (whcih is the kyuubi itself) dont see why madara is below him either


> has better destructive capacity,


No he doesnt, 



> has better defenses,


Certainly no, 



> has better speed,


sure, but that wont play a factor against either of them 


> and has superior control over Kurama's power (over what Madara could do).


That still doesnt compensate for the gap in durability and versatility that PS can back up with, 



> Juubito shat on FTG too and severed Minato's arm with ease, reacting to a FTG slash.


I know that 


> We've seen through Sasuke a very mobile and fast Susano'o. Don't make excuses for Madara if he couldn't react to Naruto's blitz.
> Based on? manga didnt show shit,


Yeah, but that same  susanoo was boosted by yin and yang kurama cloak (3x each) as well as juugos sejutsu, boosting it atleast 6x 
madara just had an ordinary leggged  



> He only tagged him since he could put up a tag on Juubito's back _after being ripped in half._ Its not denial when you point out facts you refuse to even acknowledge.


for gods  sake i have repeated this line, countless times, 
yeah he lost his body to place a mark on him, but afterwards he still tagged him, 
denying that is denying the manga 





> *And all you do is either Madara or Hashirama wank as a response*, or apply feats which they don't have.


Lmao, why are you getting salty here? all it shows is that you have ran out of arguments 



> Yeah, it does look like he stopped deliberately so he could grab Naruto and Sasuke and slam them. Its a widely known tactic.


No, he blocked theirr attack, because they tagged him,he was evading their attacks for all that time, yet once they adapted to him, he couldnt do so and was forced to block, hence why he was  tagged 

and he stopped  only afterwards to begin his attack 

[





> Since he wasn't trying to kill them, he was trying to _break_ them. You don't remember that Obito was doing all this to make Naruto break and join him? That he was having doubts and that Naruto's stubborn resistance made him be careless and unconsciously hold back?


Yeah, No, he was attempting to eradicate their avatars, that is going all out 



> Since that's A>B>C logic. Saying that one character who has something similar to another can do a similar feat does not WORK in Naruto. It all matters is the USAGE.* If Sasuke has a better speed and reaction feat to Madara's who lacks it, that means it can't be applied to Madara's since his eyes are not the exact same as Sasuke's.*


Based on nothing but denial, 
manga has stated that madara has the same choku tomo,  no reason to believe why he cant do that, 
there is something called scaling and logic, which you seem to lack here ALOT 



> He gave them enough time to escape. He wanted to see how Naruto would respond.
> 
> 
> And now this is bullshit. 'EMS Madara lacks the feats so I'll just bullshit and say that he is superior to EMS Sasuke without any real evidence, then go onto claim he's better than KCM Minato, Tobirama, and KCM Naruto!'


Lets see, 
EMS Madara is faster than sasuke, has the same choku tomo precog, and added wwith superior speed, his precog increases even more, 
so yeah his reactions are superior to sasukes, whose reactions are supeerior to kcm minato kcm naruto and tobirama 



> Tobirama could blitz Madara without all of his upgrades since he was able to kill Izuna before Izuna could react. And Izuna and Madara were said to be equals in nearly everything, remember?


Except they were only equals when madara had MS, and evenn that is debatable, since the manga only stated that they competed with each other, doesnt mean that theyre equals 

unlike izuna, madara has the choku tomo and no one else had that bar sasuke, 
choku tomo has tracked  someone leagues faster so madara reacts to tobiramaa just fine, 

the only thing that tobirama has going for him is superior speed, but apart from that he gets clowned with utmost ease 



> All you're doing is putting Hashirama and Madara on a pedestal and you don't even realize it.


Ill say it again, either  prove me wrong,  or stop complaining


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> only 1 question since the rest of your post is utter BS.
> 
> who the fuck agreed juubito could beat 8 gate gai???? mind showing me someone else other than you agreeing to such BS?


Lots of people. It was agreed Eight Gated Guy couldn't get beyond the Gudodama (since in canon, he had to have them REMOVED before he could effectively attack Juudara) and no counter for the Quadruple Bijudama.

And excuse me for using the manga to support things while you arbitarily put a character who was the epitome of power just a year ago, who owned all these characters at once a year ago, in the same position since nothing had changed.


ARGUS said:


> Yeah No, again you have proven to me that your way of thinking is wrong,
> being faster helps you react better, but that doesnt mean that your reactions are superiior,
> Base Hashiramas reactions are on par with EMS madaras, given the fact that they are equal in most aspects, and EMS madaras sharingan precog can track Tobiramas speed just fine, so hashirama can react to him too,


Base Hashirama and EMS Madara have had ONE clash on screen that was physical. Nothing was shown other than that since they were doing pure ninjutsu after. And no, that was Sage Mode RINNEGAN Madara could track Tobirama's speed just fine. NOT EMS Madara, so get that BS out of there.


> make it SM hashirama  and we have canonically seen how he would shit on tobirama in CQC,


No, he can't. Tobirama was inferior to a combined Madara with Senju vitality, Sage Mode, and the Rinnegan. If anything, Tobirama is still Hashirama's superior in speed, Sage Mode or no.



> Scans for such claims? because it just seems like fanfic to me
> Madara didnt sense his dad coming, he even wrote on the pebbel to warn hashirama about his dad, not to mention that they both exhanged pebbels with the messages at the same time,
> there was no sensing involved in that incident, nice try though


My mistake. But its always seemed like Madara was a Natural Sensor (especially since he could conceal his presence from Tobirama just like Karin could), not something he gained from implanting Hashriama's cells into himself.



> All im seeing is either denial from you, when you have failed to counter any logical points at all
> and then im hearing you wine about me ''overrating'' hashirama/madara,
> i have already addressed this same  line multiple times, either counter it or concede


There's nothing TO concede and I'm not denying anything. You ARE overrating and wanking Hashirama and Madara to insane degrees. Giving them feats which they DON'T have in the manga. You want them to be better than they actually were SHOWN to be and you do it subconsciously since you have a HUGE amount of cognitive dissonance for them.



> Yeah because his susanoo was slower than the avatar, its that simple,


As Sasuke shown, Susano'o's with legs are nimble and speedy. If Madara couldn't react to BM Naruto, he couldn't react. Stop making excuses since I caught you in a bind.



> sasukes reactions come from his choku tomo, which madara has,
> hence why we an apply the same feat to him


And Sasuke has feats that Madara doesn't, so you can't apply Sasuke's feats to Madara's. 


> Uhh No, but then again i have seen you hate on Hashirama/Madara countless times  so im noot surprised to hear this from you,


I don't 'hate on Hashirama and Madara'. I just don't WANK them like YOU fucking do ARGUS. You give them feats they don't HAVE and when I point it out to you, you continue to fucking do it! I'm getting seriously pissed off!


> you have sasuke reacting to someone with the same eyes as madaras, solely thankks to the choku tomo precog,, yet just because madara didnt face juubito, youre going on at madara being unable to do the same, despite having the same eyes,, smh
> and youre going on about sasuke having superior reactions based on nothing at all


Your same eyes argument falls flat: Sasuke and Itachi both had the Mangekyo Sharingan but they've shown different reactions and speeds. Sasuke and Kakashi have had the Mangekyo Sharingan and had different reactions and speeds. Just because they have the same eyes DOES NOT MEAN you can make Sasuke's feats Madara's! This isn't a hard concept!



> uhh, No,
> SM boosts everything, be it ninjutsu, reflexes, reactions, speed and power,
> RT madara had enough physical power to knock down the bijuus after gaining SM, yet you have the nerve to tell me that it doesnt boost anything apart from ninjutsu? come on  now,
> 
> going by manga, hashiramas SM is well well above toad Sm


RT Madara was reduced to a pinball by the Biju's and only knocked them down with a Limbo (he probably Limbo Cloned the Gedo Mazo to do it). The only thing universal for Sage Mode is that Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu are increased to high amounts. But each Sage Mode's shown to increase the physical abilities to different degrees, Toad increases speed, strength, and durability, Snake increases agility and speed, and Hashirama's increases regen but no notable durability, speed, or strength increases. 



> Nah, BM minato was forming it with naruto, not doing it seperately,
> just goes to show your double standards, smh
> minato can form TBB because he has the same kurama
> so why cant madara have the same choku tomo precog that sasuke has?


If BM Minato was forming a Bijudama alongside Naruto, it means he can do it WITHOUT Naruto since he knows the mixture. And there is no double standards. Madara doesn't have the same Choku Tomoe precog since the two characters have shown different speeds and reactions. Just because they have the same eyes does NOT give them the same powers.



> Uhh No, there is no bias there at all, look at my tier list, which unlike yours clearly says otherwise,,


You have a LOT of bias.


> beating PS-Kurama on your own and forming a fucking valley on your own is a feat that certainly puts him above the likes of BSM naruto, and puts him a good lot above EMS Sasuke,


BSM Naruto surviving against Juubito and damaging him puts him above Hashirama's VOTE feat. If Madara could control Kurama like Naruto could, you would have a feat...but instead he can't.


> PS+Kurama > Kurama avatar, so VOTE Maddara is above the likes of these 2  as well, though BSM naruto can cetainly give him a good fight,


PS + Kurama is inferior to Naruto's BSM and BM states from feats. It cant' do a Super Bijudama. No Rasenshurikens. No insane speed or chakra sharing. Durability is inferior (given Naruto could tank a Juubi Bijudama in Biju Mode). 


> and dont even mention RT madara, the dude clowned the bijuus inclunding naruto himself, yet youre calling me biased for saying that hes above naruto? Lol No,


RT Madara without eyes was turned into a pinball by the Biju. Only with the Rinnegan he is above. EMS Madara and SM Hashirama were shown to be surpassed by EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto during the Obito fight, given they were up against a superior opponent and won.



> Yeah No, naruto was not exhausted of his sage chakra, please stop bringing excuses here,
> madaras shunshin took a steamy dump on even a SM user, yet youre telling me that its nothing,
> and sasuke landed a hit, but does that mean that he has superior reactions? not really when we have seen characters with inferior reactions such as KCM minato and Tobirama, and 7G guy land blows on characters that are mucch much faster, such as Juudara and Jubito


Yeah, he was. you forget, Naruto's limit for Rasenshuriken's are three as of the War Arc, two exhausts him. One Odama Rasenshuriken equals two normal Rasenshurikens. So yes, he was exhausted when Madara attacked him, but he still blocked.

Sasuke landed a hit and could track Madara's movements. 


> What feat puts BSM naruto above these 2?
> landing a blow on juubito and then getting fodderred by a drop slam doesnt put you above a guy that solod the PS and Kyuubi on his own,  forming a valley on the process, as weell as restraining something as powerful as V3 juubi,
> PS+Kyuubi > Kurama avatar (whcih is the kyuubi itself) dont see why madara is below him either[/quote[
> BSM Naruto can do Cho Bijudama's and Cho Odama Rasenshurikens. Those two destructive jutsus are stronger than PS Kurama and Shinsusenju. Shinsusenju only dealt with standard power Bijudama's and weaker, NOT the super kind, nor did it deal with Rasenshurikens that can cut through Juubi tails.
> ...


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

> I know that


That makes Juubito and Juudara's reactions equal.


> Yeah, but that same  susanoo was boosted by yin and yang kurama cloak (3x each) as well as juugos sejutsu, boosting it atleast 6x
> madara just had an ordinary leggged


Madara had Sage Mode. The only difference between his and Sasuke's was that Madara's didn't have the Kurama cloak. His Susano'o should have been just as fast and agile. 



> for gods  sake i have repeated this line, countless times,
> yeah he lost his body to place a mark on him, but afterwards he still tagged him,
> denying that is denying the manga


I'm not denying anything. I'm just saying that Tobirama, a LIVING one would die before placing the tag. Is that hard to grasp? 





> Lmao, why are you getting salty here? all it shows is that you have ran out of arguments


No, it's the other way around. You have no feats for Hashirama and EMS Madara in speed or reactions that are close to Naruto's and Sasuke's so you'll give them what other characters have done.



> No, he blocked theirr attack, because they tagged him,he was evading their attacks for all that time, yet once they adapted to him, he couldnt do so and was forced to block, hence why he was  tagged
> 
> and he stopped  only afterwards to begin his attack


Looked to me like he was just setting a trap and luring them in. If they could truly track him, they could have reacted to the Gudodama Chakra Arm grab, don't you think?



> Yeah, No, he was attempting to eradicate their avatars, that is going all out


If he was going all out, he would have _killed_ them instead of giving them a chance to recover.



> Based on nothing but denial,
> manga has stated that madara has the same choku tomo,  no reason to believe why he cant do that,
> there is something called scaling and logic, which you seem to lack here ALOT


its scaling, but not logic. Loads of people have the same eyes in the manga but we don't apply their feats to each other. Should Hinata have Neji's feats since they both have the Byakugan? That's basically what you're doing.



> Lets see,
> EMS Madara is faster than sasuke, has the same choku tomo precog, and added wwith superior speed, his precog increases even more,
> so yeah his reactions are superior to sasukes, whose reactions are supeerior to kcm minato kcm naruto and tobirama


Lets see:

EMS Madara has no feats which prove that, so that's out. 
Neji and Hinata have the same eyes, does that mean they have the same reactions? Nope, good.

What's next, you'll claim EMS Madara is as fast as V2 A like Starwander so Hashirama can be that fast too?



> Except they were only equals when madara had MS, and evenn that is debatable, since the manga only stated that they competed with each other, doesnt mean that theyre equals


And the databook said they were equals and competed with each other and were the Uchiha's strongest at that time.


> unlike izuna, madara has the choku tomo and no one else had that bar sasuke,
> choku tomo has tracked  someone leagues faster so madara reacts to tobiramaa just fine,


I'll point out again: Hinata and Neji have the same eyes, just like Sasuke and Madara, does that mean Hinata gets Neji's reaction and speed feats? 


> the only thing that tobirama has going for him is superior speed, but apart from that he gets clowned with utmost ease


Tobirama has superior Suitons to his brother too.



> Ill say it again, either  prove me wrong,  or stop complaining


I have proved you wrong. You just keep insisting things since again, to you, Hashirama and Madara are on a pedestal subconsciously. You have so much cognitive dissonance for them you can't recognize that they aren't as strong or fast as you keep pointing out.

(Stupid character limit. Seriously)


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 1, 2015)

Juubito isn't blitzing jackshit with Tobirama and Minato on the field.

Madara and Hashirama ought to be able to keep up with him, too, going purely by their powerscaling off of Tobirama. Sage Kabuto likely can do the same; Itachi isn't much if any slower reaction-wise, so he and Nagato can't be too far off.

7-against-1, they have each others' backs.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

TSorry another question SSM12
You just said in a post juubito Shat on FTG what manga are u reading ??

Tobirama clone !!!! A bloody clone use it to hit him granted he blocked . Sm naruto got him thanks to FTG 

He so did not shit on the technique . 

Juubito isn't immorktal since Juudara wasn't immortal . As for getting past the black stuff 8 gate gai seemed to have no problem using evening elephant to smack it . Madara could only camp inside , yet you think its juubito a far lesser opponent who would beat gai . Sure thing 

In any case most people have agreed juubito looses in this match up . You can cling to ur fanfic

Maybe OP can set up polls . Let's put this to a vote . 1 saying juubito wins vs everyone else should make for a fair poll


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> TSorry another question SSM12
> You just said in a post juubito Shat on FTG what manga are u reading ??
> 
> Tobirama clone !!!! A bloody clone use it to hit him granted he blocked . Sm naruto got him thanks to FTG


Minato goes in for a Hiraishin blitz Obito finishes evolving reacts to the Hiraishin blitz severs his arm and sticks a Gudodama onto the stump without Minato noticing.


> He so did not shit on the technique .


Links above prove he was.


> Juubito isn't immorktal since Juudara wasn't immortal .


He doesn't need to be. Everything that the team dishes out Juubito can tank indefinitely and regenerate from the damage. You don't seem to quite grasp why a Juubi Jin is a God Tier in the first place.


> As for getting past the black stuff 8 gate gai seemed to have no problem using evening elephant to smack it . Madara could only camp inside , yet you think its juubito a far lesser opponent who would beat gai . Sure thing


Eight Gated Guy needed it to be removed for the final hit.

Icegaze, again, its not just met. It was widely agreed that Eight Gated Guy would lose to Juubito because of the Gudodama Dome (which Guy can't get by without help) and the Quadruple Bijudama. Its not a fanfic, just because you downplay Obito doesn't make it fact.


> In any case most people have agreed juubito looses in this match up . You can cling to ur fanfic


Most people have forgotten Obito's performance. Like you have had.


> Maybe OP can set up polls . Let's put this to a vote . 1 saying juubito wins vs everyone else should make for a fair poll


Again, polls are shit since they're just a popularity contest NOT a debate. Icegaze, you haven't countered any of the arguments.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato goes in for a Hiraishin blitz Obito finishes evolving reacts to the Hiraishin blitz severs his arm and sticks a Gudodama onto the stump without Minato noticing.
> 
> Links above prove he was.
> 
> ...



And any idiot with the time to show you why your wrong can provide u with 2 links showing juubito being decked because of hirashin 
So he successfully did something useful againat it 1 out of 3 . I don't like those odds . Can't call them trolling 

Maybe your definition of the word differs 
Btw I am effortlessly countering your arguments 

Juubito trolled Hirashin !! Ask Sm naruto how he got the drop on juubito . Guess Tobirama clone would have a few words to say about that . I don't need to provide such obvious panels . Your the juubito fan have some dignity and admit those things happened . You can't deny them 

Again popularity is all its about . Widely accepted white is white . If u go tell someone it's a different colour U would be wrong 
Mei looses to Ei widely accepted . Try argue that . You pretty much doing that on this thread . Do provide at least 2 other posters who agree with u 

That's an actual valid argument btw . Hard to call all of us haters or tards when only one person in this thread agrees with u and that's urself

-snip-

so lets go on and analyze what he said. people apparently juubito trolled hirashin. so lets take a count on how many times it was successful used against him. shall we?

1) KCM and EMS sasuke escaping juubito
2) tobirama clone
3) hirashin swap 
4) Sm naruto 

how many times did he manage to actually do something useful against it 

1) chopping off minato arm
2) blocking naruto and minato rasengan 

so thats 30% of the time. yet some baby calls that trolling. am enjoying his posts. are you guys?


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## Kai (Mar 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Juubito trolled Hirashin !! Ask Sm naruto how he got the drop on juubito . Guess Tobirama clone would have a few words to say about that . I don't need to provide such obvious panels . Your the juubito fan have some dignity and admit those things happened . You can't deny them


Obito didn't have to worry about being hit just like Edo Tensei didn't have to worry about being hit ? that is, until Obito found about a Juubi Jin's weakness to senjutsu and Edo Tensei's weakness to Yin/Yang release.

What happened after Obito acknowledged he could be harmed? What did Tobirama say?


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> Obito didn't have to worry about being hit just like Edo Tensei didn't have to worry about being hit — that is, until Obito found about a Juubi Jin's weakness to senjutsu and Edo Tensei's weakness to Yin/Yang release.
> 
> What happened after Obito acknowledged he could be harmed? What did Tobirama say?



cute post. but thats after hirashin had already worked 4 times consecutively. why tobirama said they will get destroyed is based on the fact that this time juubito was settign up a defense to protect his 6. 

i dont see how that means juubito trolled hirasin at all. 

as to not worrying about being hit, if he wasnt worried about their attacks why protect himself against them? also note against tobirama clone he was forced to use his black stuff to protect himself from his own attack. 

so thats just a cheap excuse. he wasnt worried about defending himself. mind showing a panel where it says that?

all ur panel shows is juubito setting up a defense to guard his 6. even killer bee was able to anticipate hirahsin attack. 

juubito failure in doing so 4 times wasnt because he didnt feel the need to defend himself. juubito isnt aizen 

Looool the panel you provided basically shows Tobirama saying he is guarding his back he will destroy us . Clearly goes with what am saying . If anyone sets up a defense against Hirashin to protect their 6 then they should be fine . However juubito fell to the technique 4 times that's not trolling 

Juudara trolled Hirashin


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

Well, Juubito easily trolled Tobirama's Hiraishin used on BM Minato's and BSM Naruto's Chou Oodama Rasengan, so there's that. 

 But that's not to say Tobirama's feats should still be ignored. His reflexes are still above BM Minato's.


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## Kai (Mar 1, 2015)

Icegaze, it's not like Obito couldn't do anything against Hiraishin since he casually defended against it later, but it was also the initial belief that he couldn't be harmed. Consider the fact that Obito actually upped his guard the moment he acknowledged a weakness with being the Juubi's Jinchuuriki. They never touched him with a Hiraishin based offense ever again after the fact.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

jesus Kai you are being dumB!! that post was after hirahsin had already worked 4 fuckign times. 

how much of an idiot would juubito have to be for it to work a 5th time. seriously man 

think just a little bit

they also only ever used it once after that. and again juubito had witnessed the technique and lost to it 4 times previously. 

its utter BS to think juubito thought he couldnt be harmed so he let himself get hit. against Sm naruto he was utterly shocked by naruto attack. 

juubito after failing to defend 4 times decided to prep a defense. any idiot with the ability to do so would do so. 

like i said even killer bee with the brains to anticiapte hirashin did, already counter it. 

juubito during this match cant know where all the markings are and if he is marked. since in canon the jutsu worked 4 times before juubito managed to block it

btw: i never said juubito is helpless against hirashin i just had to correct a liar who had the audacity to claim juubito trolled the technique. 

so long as hirahsin is in play juubito wont be blitzing anyone here.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 3, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Juubito isn't blitzing jackshit with Tobirama and Minato on the field.
> 
> Madara and Hashirama ought to be able to keep up with him, too, going purely by their powerscaling off of Tobirama. Sage Kabuto likely can do the same; Itachi isn't much if any slower reaction-wise, so he and Nagato can't be too far off.
> 
> 7-against-1, they have each others' backs.



Itachi was showing faster reactions to sm kabuto then sasuke.

Nagato is also a sensor and can use animals as a extra set of eyes.




so honestly i see every single person especially when amped by kyubi chakra being able to react to juubito.


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