# Early Wano Luffy vs King



## Silver (Oct 1, 2021)

If King rolled up on Luffy at the start of Wano could Luffy have taken him?

Location: Udon 
Mindset: Serious


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## convict (Oct 1, 2021)

The one that got oneshotted? He gets smoked. King is on a completely different level. He rolls him repeatedly even in G4.

King and Marco are comparable to the Luffy that fought Kaido with CoC for a few minutes before going down.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 11 | Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Informative 1 | Disagree 5 | Optimistic 5 | Tier Specialist 2 | Dislike 2


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## TheOmega (Oct 1, 2021)

King gon beat him just like Katakuri could've

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5


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## OG sama (Oct 1, 2021)

This is pretty much WCI Luffy vs King.

Lots of unknowns in this battle imo.

Does Luffy even need Snakeman here or does he just stick with boundman? Does King dodge attacks from Luffy or does he just go straight on and meet KGs and Bazookas head on with his wings?

Either way, Luffy is probably going to need multiple rounds of G4 to put down King for good.

In udon, he won’t be able to hide much anywhere like the MW without being killed.

Luffy probably pulls out the win somehow in a fight created by Oda, but on this forum he probably ends up running out of stamina and being killed immediately.

Hard to say, it’s better to see the full scope of Kings abilities to really see how he approaches a fight like this.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## OG sama (Oct 1, 2021)

convict said:


> The one that got oneshotted? He gets smoked. King is on a completely different level. He rolls him repeatedly even in G4.
> 
> King and Marco are comparable to the Luffy that fought Kaido with CoC for a few minutes before going down.


Hell no, I might give you Marco but definitely not King.

Reactions: Like 1


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## convict (Oct 1, 2021)

Stalling but getting low-diffed by Kaido after a few minutes is fully within the scope of Marco and likely King I don't see how that is controversial.


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## Fisherman John West (Oct 1, 2021)

Hybrid King > Marco > Base King > Pre Udon Luffy

Reactions: Winner 1 | GODA 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## OG sama (Oct 1, 2021)

convict said:


> Stalling but getting low-diffed after a few minutes is fully within the scope of these two I don't see how that is controversial


The same Luffy that was going blow for blow with Hybrid Kaido is comparable to King that is going to lose to Zoro, same Zoro that went down when Luffy told him to? Lol no sir.

How many people on the roof were clashing equally with Kaido before Luffy did so with ACoC?

Yeah you are a Zoro fan and that’s cool, but Luffy beat a guy comparable to King a whole arc ago, two or three power ups ago, King isn’t much stronger than Katakuri if at all. I don’t see how on earth King would be comparable to that Luffy. If anything, Post Udon Luffy should be strong enough to beat King, even if pre udon would lose depending on the circumstances.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 7


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## Fisherman John West (Oct 1, 2021)

OG sama said:


> The same Luffy that was going blow for blow with Hybrid Kaido is comparable to King that is going to lose to Zoro, same Zoro that went down when Luffy told him to? Lol no sir.
> 
> How many people on the roof were clashing equally with Kaido before Luffy did so with ACoC?
> 
> Yeah you are a Zoro fan and that’s cool, but Luffy beat a guy comparable to King a whole arc ago, two or three power ups ago, King isn’t much stronger than Katakuri if at all. I don’t see how on earth King would be comparable to that Luffy. If anything, Post Udon Luffy should be strong enough to beat King, even if pre udon would lose depending on the circumstances.


Katakuri is nothing to King

Feats clearly matter and feats show Pre Udon Luffy and Katakuri are simply neg diff material to a yonko

While King and Zoro aren't

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 4


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## TheOmega (Oct 1, 2021)

OG sama said:


> This is pretty much WCI Luffy vs King.
> 
> Lots of unknowns in this battle imo.
> 
> ...


Start of Wano Luffy is definitely not WCI Luffy lol

And yea King beats the dog shit outta Loofy once G4 runs out.

King ain't on some whole nother tier from Katakuri like some folks are tryna gas it but start of Wano Luffy wasn't truly YC1 yet so he takes the L.

Jailhouse Luffy is where things start to get interesting

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## convict (Oct 1, 2021)

OG sama said:


> The same Luffy that was going blow for blow with Hybrid Kaido is comparable to King that is going to lose to Zoro, same Zoro that went down when Luffy told him to? Lol no sir.
> 
> How many people on the roof were clashing equally with Kaido before Luffy did so with ACoC?
> 
> Yeah you are a Zoro fan and that’s cool, but Luffy beat a guy comparable to King a whole arc ago, two or three power ups ago, King isn’t much stronger than Katakuri if at all. I don’t see how on earth King would be comparable to that Luffy. If anything, Post Udon Luffy should be strong enough to beat King, even if pre udon would lose depending on the circumstances.



Blow for blow for a few minutes then biting it. Marco matched Akainu's blow and stood his ground. Marco matched Big Mom's blow and stood his ground. Base Luffy also matched Doffy blow for blow and when Doffy got serious he started kicking G2 Luffy around like a soccer ball. Matching him for a few punches early on in the fight doesn't take away getting off-screened easily. G2 Luffy was also matching Katakuri's blow before their main fight. King sending Zoro flying like this with casual AoE points to me that he has the strength to match unnamed blows from Kaido until Kaido really lets loose and overwhelms him.

And Marco doesn't need to be defended he already proved as much.

Fact is we all got hoodwinked by the pretty black fireworks coming out of Luffy's hands and got overhyped but all that hype came crashing down yet again. Just like with Red Roc. Only now do I think Luffy is actually a threat to Kaido and above the elite YC1s.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## OG sama (Oct 1, 2021)

convict said:


> Blow for blow for a few minutes then biting it. Marco matched Akainu's blow and stood his ground. Marco matched Big Mom's blow and stood his ground. Base Luffy also matched Doffy blow for blow and when Doffy got serious he started kicking G2 Luffy around like a soccer ball. Matching him for a few punches early on in the fight doesn't take away getting off-screened easily. G2 Luffy was also matching Katakuri's blow before their main fight. King sending Zoro flying like this with casual AoE points to me that he has the strength to match unnamed blows from Kaido until Kaido really lets loose and overwhelms him.
> 
> And Marco doesn't need to be defended he already proved as much.


Marco blocked a few attacks from Akainu and needed Vistas assistance to deal minimal damage to Akainu, he wasn’t fighting Akainu alone. He had plenty of WB commanders behind him backing him up and Akainu had marine fodder around him, not trying to go off topic so I’m going to leave that alone.

And Marco got choked out by BM and was about to take a candy arrow to the head if not for carrot and Wandas help… like I said I’m leaving Marco alone.

King overpowered a few of Zoros lower end  attacks and that proves he can tango with Kaidos club blow for blow??? Like… how??? This just sounds like straight up fanboying.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Oct 1, 2021)

Luffy wins Katakuri 1/10 times. King is a bit stronger, it's 0/10 against him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## convict (Oct 1, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Marco blocked a few attacks from Akainu and needed Vistas assistance to deal minimal damage to Akainu, he wasn’t fighting Akainu alone. He had plenty of WB commanders behind him backing him up and Akainu had marine fodder around him, not trying to go off topic so I’m going to leave that alone.
> 
> And Marco got choked out by BM and was about to take a candy arrow to the head if not for carrot and Wandas help… like I said I’m leaving Marco alone.
> 
> King overpowered a few of Zoros lower end  attacks and that proves he can tango with Kaidos club blow for blow??? Like… how??? This just sounds like straight up fanboying.


Marco has blown back top tiers in Kizaru too. Did that do any meaningful damage? No. Just like Luffy's attacks. He clearly has the feats. And Big Mom clearly said that taking him out would be an ordeal. We are going in circles here but old Luffy may have stronger offense with his CoC but they are much more tanky and have more stamina so it evens out.

Currently Luffy of course is actually going to give Kaido a good fight and actually hurt him significantly so current Luffy is of course not what I am talking about.


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## OG sama (Oct 1, 2021)

convict said:


> Marco has blown back top tiers in Kizaru too. Did that do any meaningful damage? No. Just like Luffy's attacks. He clearly has the feats. And Big Mom clearly said that taking him out would be an ordeal. We are going in circles here but old Luffy may have stronger offense with his CoC but they are much more tanky and have more stamina so it evens out.
> 
> Currently Luffy of course is actually going to give Kaido a good fight and actually hurt him significantly so current Luffy is of course not what I am talking about.


King and Zoro just started fighting and y’all are already jumping to conclusions lol. Luffy could have beaten King with just the AdvCoA power up, the Luffy that told Zoro to go down to the live floor is obviously much stronger than the Zoro that King is fighting right now, and the fight is just beginning, let Zoro bust out his best stuff before jumping to conclusions my guy lol.

King is strong but I don’t see why he would be strong enough to be going going blow for blow with Kaido, no one was doing that before Luffy got the AdvCoC boost.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fel1x (Oct 1, 2021)

convict said:


> The one that got oneshotted? He gets smoked. King is on a completely different level. He rolls him repeatedly even in G4.
> 
> King and Marco are comparable to the Luffy that fought Kaido with CoC for a few minutes before going down.


what about usual mid fight power ups?


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## o0Shinthi0o (Oct 1, 2021)

Luffy wins extremel Diff . Pre Udon Luffy should be equal (or slightly stronger) to King  as i think at this point he can actually beat a fresh Kata 1v1 (which WCI  Luffy can not without PIS). Post Udon tho King/Kata has no chance .

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fisherman John West (Oct 1, 2021)

King shouldn't be far from Kaido like people think if he can literally do attacks greater than Kaido




King is simply that damn strong

Zoro also did better than Luffy before chapter 1010, I won't say that King > Post Udon Luffy until he overpowers Zoro at his best and with his strongest techniques, but King > Pre Udon > WCI Luffy

Reactions: Like 4 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## convict (Oct 1, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> what about usual mid fight power ups?



I mean anything can happen I am taking that out of consideration.

Anyway @OG sama I'll leave it at that don't really have too much more to say for now

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Maruo (Oct 1, 2021)

Post-aCoC Luffy is not comparable to King. That Luffy wasn't low-diffed - he was solidly mid-diffed. He lasted against Kaido for half an hour or so (please look at accurate translations). That Luffy is basically current Luffy. At most, he's only slightly weaker due to lack of experience. Post-aCoC Luffy is closer to Admiral level than he is to King.

People here really need to critically examine why they have Zoro as high up as they do. Feats matter here, but portrayal and story direction matter just as much if not more so. Zoro scarred Kaido, but he had intended for Kaido to fall down with his attack - a feat Luffy accomplished immediately after. Zoro blocked Hakai for an instant, but we have no idea how well anyone else on the Rooftop would have done against Hakai. Zoro had no clear and solid feats against YC1 level characters until this chapter, and his feats against Kaido are a lot more ambiguous than people here are making them out to be.

There's also value in simplicity - you have to admit that all the YC1s being in the same ballpark is the simplest tier placement. It's much easier to imagine Oda thinking along these lines than along whatever skewed consensus develops here or on other forums.

Reactions: Agree 9 | Winner 5 | Informative 1


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## Lord Stark (Oct 1, 2021)

I mean in the same conditions he fought Kaido in i.e. being in unfocused rage mode thinking his Nakama got wiped out? Luffy loses to any top commander.


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## Shanks (Oct 1, 2021)

All of a sudden King is Marco level 

Katakuri, Luffy (start of Wano) and Kings goes either way.

- Chapter 1000, Luffy is FM+
- ACoC Sandal is Admiral Level
- current is Yonkou level

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 4


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## Ezekjuninor (Oct 1, 2021)

King should win high diff. King isn't low-diffing G4 and FS Luffy, there's no reason to believe that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Mrdude (Oct 1, 2021)

King is still YC1 level. It could go either way.

Luffy's performance against base form Kaido has nothing to do with Zoro's performance against dragon Kaido.
When 1 form (Dragon) is significantly weaker than the other. Luffy certainly isn't lacking the speed or the power necessary to fight off a dragon Kaido even at the start of Wano or WCI. His problem was hurting Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Fisherman John West (Oct 1, 2021)

King wins high diff

If King overpowers Zoro bigger attacks than lol we got problems

Reactions: Agree 2 | Useful 1 | Dislike 1


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## Grinningfox (Oct 1, 2021)

Either way but I’m voting Luffy

Reactions: Agree 2 | Neutral 1


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## MYJC (Oct 1, 2021)

Luffy extreme. I think Oda making Luffy's bounty slightly higher than his at least hints at that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 1, 2021)

Luffy was not losing to a YFM post Katakuri. King catches those rubber fists.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 1, 2021)

Luffy with g4 and futuresight takes this extreme difd

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 1, 2021)

convict said:


> The one that got oneshotted? He gets smoked. King is on a completely different level. He rolls him repeatedly even in G4.
> 
> King and Marco are comparable to the Luffy that fought Kaido with CoC for a few minutes before going down.


It is so refreshing to see someone who gets its.

Reactions: Like 3 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Dunno (Oct 1, 2021)

Luffy gets slaughtered. King is fighting a far superior opponent to that version of Luffy and doing well. If you can't react to Kaido, can't damage him and get one-shot by him, you aren't putting up a fight against King.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2 | Dislike 1


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 1, 2021)

Luffy win this. Extreme diff.

How is King in diffirent level. 

His coa and coo is nothing special. Sure, he's pushing Zoro but so did G4 Luffy. If he try to tank Zoro attack that scar Kaido or the one that Kaido dodge he is KO. 

And King doesnt have a feat that we could say that he can hurt Kaido. 

The barrage of Luffy's attack that Kaido tank will put King down.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Magentabeard (Oct 1, 2021)

Luffy still had the problem of running out of haki/G4 on the rooftop (pre ACoC). King very high diffs, in his hybrid form he is probably physically stronger than Katakuri too. ACoC Luffy wins easily though obviously. I'm assuming Luffy doesn't unlock it mid battle but even then he had to recover first and get saved by other RT5 and "learn" from Kaidou's ACoC strike.


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## Rp4lyf (Oct 1, 2021)

Pre Advanced CoC Luffy is still stronger than King and Marco based on what Oda stated in Kaido Vivre Card from the databook

*It said Kaido had not been pushed by a strong foe since Oden and it refferred to chapter 1003 and 1010 Luffy.*

Not just that but chapter 1009 base Luffy was fighting  hybrid Kaido 1v1 before he unlocked CoC coating. 

Kaido was dodging Adv COA base Luffy attacks.

So king is weaker than post udon Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## OG sama (Oct 1, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Luffy gets slaughtered. King is fighting a far superior opponent to that version of Luffy and doing well. If you can't react to Kaido, can't damage him and get one-shot by him, you aren't putting up a fight against King.


Please, King gets bopped by Thunder Bagua just like everybody else. And Luffy couldn’t damage Kaido only because he didn’t have a technique to bypass Kaidos scales, that wouldn’t be the case for King.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Corax (Oct 2, 2021)

I assume this is pre Udon Luffy. Oultier or not he wasn't truly an FM-lvl. character. King probably around high.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Freechoice (Oct 2, 2021)

These answers from the Z Children would be a lot different if Zoro wasn't getting ragdolled right now by King

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## Ludi (Oct 2, 2021)

Current Zoro ~ Post Udon Luffy >= King >= Katakuri > WCI Luffy

Reactions: Like 2


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## Eustathios (Oct 2, 2021)

King wins high diff. He might not be as strong as current Luffy, but he's definitely stronger than the one 2 major powerups ago IMO.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Oct 2, 2021)

The Fuck thread.

King destroy him Negg diff.


Let us suppose King fight that overrated Katakuri.

1-King is too durable for Katakuri to even scratch him when Marco couldnt with his kick.

2-King is too fast for Katakuri's FS to matter here, he will get blized and stomped.

3-King's physical strenght is too much for Katakuri.

-His zoan transformation is likely enough to send Katakuri flying from the Island knowing it was enough to send BMP as a whole flying from Wano.

4-King's Sword attack will be too lethal to Katakuri, it was strong enough to cut one if Marcos wing completely. His paramecia like logia ability will be useless.

5-Kings fire attack will burn Katakuri's mochi and turn everything on his path to Ash.

This is whithout taking King's Haki mastery into account.

He will either posess ad CoA and ad CoC or even both together making him even more powerfull.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1 | Creative 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 4 | Dislike 1


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## lightcrowler (Oct 2, 2021)

Luffy wins this, high dif.
Nobody not named Kaido is going to tank G4 attacks and King is not someone that has a tricky DF like Katakuri or Doflamingo to stall Luffy or dodge his attacks. He would get ragdolled like Zoro currently is.
The moment Luffy won against Katakuri and got a pu during the fight he was FM level. 
Odas intention was clear. He won against a FM and is now a bit over that level and since imo all FM are on the same powerlevel, Luffy was stronger than all of them at the beginning of Wano.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 3 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Oct 2, 2021)

lightcrowler said:


> Luffy wins this, high dif.
> Nobody not named Kaido is going to tank G4 attacks and King is not someone that has a tricky DF like Katakuri or Doflamingo to stall Luffy or dodge his attacks. He would get ragdolled like Zoro currently is.
> The moment Luffy won against Katakuri and got a pu during the fight he was FM level.
> Odas intention was clear. He won against a FM and is now a bit over that level and since imo all FM are on the same powerlevel, Luffy was stronger than all of them at the beginning of Wano.


@Ren. , Your dupe?
You have the same avi and same energy when it Come to Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

Sweet Tomato said:


> @Ren. , Your dupe?
> You have the same avi and same energy when it Come to Luffy.


Yes my dupe is an account from 07  

You are my dupe and you know it

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

Silver said:


> If King rolled up on Luffy at the start of Wano could Luffy have taken him?
> 
> Location: Udon
> Mindset: Serious


he can take him

FS and G4 will rock King's world.

G4 is as mobile as King if not more.

Snake-man is faster.



Sweet Tomato said:


> King destroy him Negg diff.






Ludi said:


> Katakuri > WCI Luffy


This vs is not with that Luffy but early Wano Luffy aka better FS.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Oct 2, 2021)

Silver said:


> Mindset: Serious



Early Wano Luffy aint beating a serious YFM. Not even Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

convict said:


> He rolls him repeatedly even in G4.


What.

King rolls easy a KKG?



A KG Gatling






Maruo said:


> Post-aCoC Luffy is not comparable to King. That Luffy wasn't low-diffed - he was solidly mid-diffed. He lasted against Kaido for half an hour or so (please look at accurate translations). That Luffy is basically current Luffy. At most, he's only slightly weaker due to lack of experience. Post-aCoC Luffy is closer to Admiral level than he is to King.
> 
> People here really need to critically examine why they have Zoro as high up as they do. Feats matter here, but portrayal and story direction matter just as much if not more so. Zoro scarred Kaido, but he had intended for Kaido to fall down with his attack - a feat Luffy accomplished immediately after. Zoro blocked Hakai for an instant, but we have no idea how well anyone else on the Rooftop would have done against Hakai. Zoro had no clear and solid feats against YC1 level characters until this chapter, and his feats against Kaido are a lot more ambiguous than people here are making them out to be.
> 
> There's also value in simplicity - you have to admit that all the YC1s being in the same ballpark is the simplest tier placement. It's much easier to imagine Oda thinking along these lines than along whatever skewed consensus develops here or on other forums.


You really thing the dorks will do that.

Imagine a mod saying King will rag doll G4 ).



Maruo said:


> People here really need to critically examine why they have Zoro as high up as they do. Feats matter here, but portrayal and story direction matter just as much if not more so. Zoro scarred Kaido, but he had intended for Kaido to fall down with his attack - a feat Luffy accomplished immediately after. Zoro blocked Hakai for an instant, but we have no idea how well anyone else on the Rooftop would have done against Hakai. Zoro had no clear and solid feats against YC1 level characters until this chapter, and his feats against Kaido are a lot more ambiguous than people here are making them out to be.


Bingo.



This thread is not Luffy vs King is Luffy vs imaginary Zoro.

That Zoro was supposed to low diffed King, now back to reality so Kings needs to low diff Luffy because muh nigh Equal Zoro.



Freechoice said:


> These answers from the Z Children would be a lot different if Zoro wasn't getting ragdolled right now by King

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 2, 2021)

Of early Wano Luffy couldn't beat a YFM or YC1 like everyone swears he can't here, then Oda would simply show us that. He would have Luffy lose to King as you people seem so hell-bent on saying he would. He would have Kaido say Luffy wasn't even as strong as King. But he doesn't, he does the exact opposite of that.

I swear to god, the One Piece powerscaling and vs battles community uses the most headcanon and nonsensical thinking to justify their faves winning a fight.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 2


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Of early Wano Luffy couldn't beat a YFM or YC1 like everyone swears he can't here


And Oda will just defeat him as he did Kata.

Zoro was supposed to low diff King.

He will extreme diff him as Oda will say so.

OL to me has one fix shit Zoro and Luffy are nigh equal and when I mean OL I say Z boys.

FS wano Luffy extreme diffs King and now he low diffs him.

Zoro will mid diff him next Arc ... there is a difference of one arc between the two.

Imagine saying WCI FS Luffy would do what to Zoro? well you get the drill.

Luffy got 3 pu during wci to extreme dif Katakuri.
Remember that Oda stated that after a threshold your Haki only gets stronger when straining it against opponents. Luffy during that arc was overusing and straining his Haki to extreme levels against Cracker, then against the enraged army and finally against Katakuri.
Luffy needed three Haki upgrades to finally extreme dif Katakuri, and here we have people saying that King is stronger…


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## Dunno (Oct 2, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Please, *King gets bopped by Thunder Bagua just like everybody else*. And Luffy couldn’t damage Kaido only because he didn’t have a technique to bypass Kaidos scales, that wouldn’t be the case for King.


No-one but Luffy has done as bad against TB. Zoro took one after breaking most of the bones in his body blocking Hakai, and he was concious right after. Law took one straight up and was fine. Yamato took one and took a bit of damage but was still able to fight. Luffy is the only one Kaido has been one-shotting, and that's because he was weak as fuck. Luffy's feats are Luffy's own. Extrapolating them to people whom he has no relation to is nonsensical. I could also claim that Kaido gets sent flying off the island by King's attacks "just like everyone else", and it would be exactly as good of an argument.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## convict (Oct 2, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Of early Wano Luffy couldn't beat a YFM or YC1 like everyone swears he can't here, then Oda would simply show us that. He would have Luffy lose to King as you people seem so hell-bent on saying he would.* He would have Kaido say Luffy wasn't even as strong as King.* But he doesn't, he does the exact opposite of that.



Some of the most bizarre logic I have seen. Luffy has nothing to do with King why would Kaido start comparing them randomly and the fact that he doesn't is proof Luffy can beat King?

Then again thinking beginning of Wano Luffy is as strong as King is bizarre enough so the reasoning behind it should be as well.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Disagree 2


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## Quipchaque (Oct 2, 2021)

King should likely win this. He is currently beating someone that gave Kaido hell.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 2, 2021)

OG sama said:


> King gets bopped by Thunder Bagua just like everybody else.



Lol come now.... that is ridiculous. King scales to Zoro who easily dealt with this once he used ashura.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Klue (Oct 2, 2021)

Y'all ninjas crazy thinking Luffy losing to King after doing Katakuri dirty.

NF ninjas don't learn.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Beast (Oct 2, 2021)

King overpowers Zoro for a few panels and boom, he is tiers above Kata.

luffy wins extreme diff

fuck is king gonna do kick, bite and throw flames at luffy?

these people have lost the plot, only two FM I’m putting above early Wano Luffy with confidence and that’s Marco/ Ben.



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Early Wano Luffy aint beating a serious YFM. Not even Katakuri.


So, we just Out here denying manga facts?

Kata was never going to ever have another chance of beating luffy after WCI. He got smacked and Luffy got his power up.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Neutral 1 | Disagree 1


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## ShadoLord (Oct 2, 2021)

King is about 40-50% of Kaido full strength and can give him borderline high-difficulty fight.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## ShadoLord (Oct 2, 2021)

MYJC said:


> Luffy extreme. I think Oda making Luffy's bounty slightly higher than his at least hints at that.


bounty means absolutely jack shit lmao

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ShadoLord (Oct 2, 2021)

Beast said:


> King overpowers Zoro for a few panels and boom, he is tiers above Kata.
> 
> luffy wins extreme diff
> 
> ...


too tame. Just split the monkey in half is enough.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Beast (Oct 2, 2021)

Zoro said:


> too tame. Just split the monkey in half is enough.


King is a bird, not a monkey.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShadoLord (Oct 2, 2021)

Beast said:


> King is a bird, not a monkey.


the only monkey is luffy's family


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 2, 2021)

King high diff


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## Eustathios (Oct 2, 2021)

It should be obvious by now that if Luffy beats Kaido after all his powerups, then King isn't that far from his captain and can give him a good fight. Call it a retcon, call it what you want, but that's the case now. Zoro (and by proxy someone who is very close to him) has and will always be close to Luffy. People simply overestimated the gap between Yonko and the rest.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Admiral Akanezumi (Oct 2, 2021)

Bad matchup for Luffy, imho. 

Luffy's DF has no benefits against cutting attacks. King is arguably the better flyer and can use that to his advantage if they fight in the open.

Reactions: Like 2


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## icyBankai (Oct 2, 2021)

Probably Luffy due to FS and his ability to grow in the midst of battle. If Oda wrote this, King would eventually get his lunch money taken.

However Oda also has Luffy run out of haki, so an extended fight against King would most likely wear Luffy down.

Luffy would be in for the fight of his life, possibly even tougher than his fights against Lucci and Katakuri.

If no plot shield is on it could go either way, I'm leaning towards King because I don't think the beginning of Wano Luffy is above a FM but hovering on that level.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Karma (Oct 2, 2021)

OG sama said:


> King gets bopped by Thunder Bagua just like everybody else


Ppl in this section have selective memory

Deathbed Zoro took a stronger version of
TB and was still conscious

Luffy is literally the only relevant character to get one shoted by TB

Do u think Kings strongest attack will do more or less damage to Zoro then TB?


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## featherine augustus (Oct 2, 2021)

Pre adv coa Luffy losses ; king basically has similar stats as g4 but doesn't have any time limit ; luffy post adv coa training before chapter 1010 wins assuming he can put down king within g4 time limit otherwise he loses 

Adv coc/current luffy obvi wins


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## Sir Curlyhat (Oct 2, 2021)

_Katakuri without Mogura <= Pre Udon Luffy < Mogura Katakuri and King ?  _


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## Togs (Oct 2, 2021)

convict said:


> Marco matched Akainu's blow and stood his ground.


Never happened. Marco used barrier to block Akainu fist. That doesn't represent Marco attack power. That's no different than previous user of barrier df blocked Oden attack with his df





convict said:


> Marco matched Big Mom's blow and stood his ground.


Also never happened. Marco used his df to form barrier to block Big Mom punch when there's clash of fists, there's always sparks to indicate of both fists clash each other but not on Marco vs Big Mom. Marco used his df to form barrier to block Big Mom pnch. That doesn't represent Marco attack power and power level. Other YC who doesn't have weakness to Marco df would give Marco trouble or even beat him.


Marco only fomed his barrier to block Big Mom punch. it's no different than previous barrier df user vs Oden.




Marco has no physical strength comparable to Elephant Gun which white eyed Dragon Kaido and knocked him down. Marco ap is as high as Sanji. Sanji did better vs Queen. Made him bleed and bruised him.




convict said:


> And Marco doesn't need to be defended he already proved as much.



Marco never fought Kizaru 1 on 1. Since his encounter with Kizaru until chapter 567, Kizaru and Marco didn't fight. Chapter 567, Kizaru fought some members of WBP while Marco tried to save Ace but got smacked by Garp at the end of chapter 567.

The only interaction of Marco and Kizaru we have after their encounter on air is when Kizaru shot Marco down. But that was between at the start of chapter 568 to mid page of chapter 568.

Marco most likely joined forces with other WBP member such as Rakuyo to take down Kizaru.

And again Marco vs AKainu can't be used to scale Marco power level. What Marco did was no different than what previous barrier df user did to Oden.



Using his barrier to block Akainu fist just like previous user of barrier df used his barrier to block Oden slash.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## Kobe (Oct 2, 2021)

I'm not even sure current Luffy can handle King alone. His haki reserve is so stupidly low.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Togs (Oct 2, 2021)

convict said:


> King sending Zoro flying like this with casual AoE points to me that he has the strength to match unnamed blows from Kaido until Kaido really lets loose and overwhelms him.


Please Zoro physical strength is overrated. He only blocked Hakai for 1 second before getting saved by Law. He scarred Kaido with adv CoC call it whatever you want. His physical strength played a factor but it was mostly thanks to Enma which has top tier attack and Zoro own haki.

If we scale Zoro physical strength, Zoro physical strength is even lower than Dressrosa Luffy.

Zoro with his physical strength can't push back Apoo.



while Dressrosa Luffy pushed back Fujitora far away.



And King can't even bypass Zoro block.



while Boundman easily bypassed Katakuri block who is above Luffy in physical strength who is above Zoro.



King physical strength is far below Boundman. It can't bypass Zoro block who can't overpower Apoo while BOundman can bypass katakuri block who easily overpowered Luffy who pushed back top tier Fujitora.

Big Mom without her haki would easily choke King like a chicked just like what she did to Queen and KO him with just 2 hakiless attacks.

And please Kaido slash is much stronger than King slash. King sent Zoro flying due to his slash amped by his wing flap to Zoro which sent Zoro flying.



In term of damage Kaido slash ripped Kiku arm while King with his all out attack can't kill this guy.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 2, 2021)

Karma said:


> Ppl in this section have selective memory
> 
> Deathbed Zoro took a stronger version of
> TB and was still conscious


Zoro was not conscious. He didn't wake up till being given first aid by Sanji later and of course he was drifting in and out while being carried.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Karma (Oct 2, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Zoro was not conscious. He didn't wake up till being given first aid by Sanji later and of course he was drifting in and out while being carried.


It seems ur right, his first speech bubble after TB was with Sanji

But it doesnt rlly change the argument, death bed Zoro got knocked out by a stronger attack then the one used on Luffy.

The argument doesnt rlly change, tho. There is no way King's strongest attack doesnt have a similar result on the Zoro that took the TB


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 2, 2021)

convict said:


> Some of the most bizarre logic I have seen. Luffy has nothing to do with King why would Kaido start comparing them randomly and the fact that he doesn't is proof Luffy can beat King?
> 
> Then again thinking beginning of Wano Luffy is as strong as King is bizarre enough so the reasoning behind it should be as well.


You accuse me of bizarre logic when your entire mode of reasoning has zero basis on reality.

How many times have you insisted a character A is stronger than B without A even having any feats or in universe portrayal to back that?

You've done this with Who's Who, Jack, Yamato and so on and you've been proven wrong each time. You really should start to review your thinking process on how you think Oda scales characters

In fact @convict , why don't you and I have a 1 on 1 debate on this topic where you can lay out your total reasoning for this opinion of yours?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Beast (Oct 2, 2021)

Who’s is making new accounts to spit facts like this? 

I like it   
@Togs

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Turrin (Oct 2, 2021)

King probably wins as I think he is likely =~ Katakuri but will be underhanded and not seeking exactly a fair fight, which means him being willing to just BFR Luffy or accept outside help; as we have seen against Marco and Zoro. King therefore wins. However people who think King is on the level of ACoC Luffy are crazy.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 2, 2021)

Togs said:


> Please Zoro physical strength is overrated. He only blocked Hakai for 1 second before getting saved by Law. He scarred Kaido with adv CoC call it whatever you want. His physical strength played a factor but it was mostly thanks to Enma which has top tier attack and Zoro own haki.
> 
> If we scale Zoro physical strength, Zoro physical strength is even lower than Dressrosa Luffy.
> 
> ...


Convict will ignore this to reappear in another thread saying King equals CoC coating Luffy and Yamato


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## Yumi Zoro (Oct 2, 2021)

Zoro said:


> King is about 40-50% of Kaido full strength and can give him borderline high-difficulty fight.


That avi is goat, Raileigh solos.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Oct 2, 2021)

These Luffy fans are so biased against King its crazy.
Next Time Sanji fight Ben Beckmann (Zoro might fight Mihawk) they gonna Say Ben Beckmann = Katakuri too.

they just dont know when to stop with their Katakuri agenda.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Louis-954 (Oct 2, 2021)

convict said:


> Blow for blow for a few minutes then biting it. Marco matched Akainu's blow and stood his ground. Marco matched Big Mom's blow and stood his ground. Base Luffy also matched Doffy blow for blow and when Doffy got serious he started kicking G2 Luffy around like a soccer ball. Matching him for a few punches early on in the fight doesn't take away getting off-screened easily. G2 Luffy was also matching Katakuri's blow before their main fight.* King sending Zoro flying like this with casual AoE points to me that he has the strength to match unnamed blows* from Kaido until Kaido really lets loose and overwhelms him.
> 
> And Marco doesn't need to be defended he already proved as much.
> 
> Fact is we all got hoodwinked by the pretty black fireworks coming out of Luffy's hands and got overhyped but all that hype came crashing down yet again. Just like with Red Roc. Only now do I think Luffy is actually a threat to Kaido and above the elite YC1s.


People forget that Zoan's are *THE* close quarters combat fruits that boast the highest raw physical power, and King has an Ancient Type which is even rarer. Imo he's still shown very little of what he can truly do. Doesn't surprise me at all that some of his attacks are stronger than Kaido's lower tier attacks.

I don't know why that shocks people. Luffy after this arc will be Yonko level or VERY close to it, that doesn't suddenly mean though that a basic Gomu Gomu no Pistol though is stronger than a Radical Beam from Franky.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Winner 2


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 2, 2021)

Karma said:


> But it doesnt rlly change the argument, death bed Zoro got knocked out by a stronger attack then the one used on Luffy.


That's not an argument for anything though. 

Zoro being already injured doesnt mean we can infer that he would have definitely been fine if he wasnt.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Togs (Oct 2, 2021)

Beast said:


> Who’s is making new accounts to spit facts like this?
> 
> I like it
> @Togs


Thanks 



Kagutsutchi said:


> Convict will ignore this to reappear in another thread saying King equals CoC coating Luffy and Yamato


I saw someone said King can beat all scabbards because King slash>Kaido slash. Reminder when Izo alone disarmed King and Kawamatsu put King in his place.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 2, 2021)

Togs said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> I saw someone said King can beat all scabbards because King slash>Kaido slash. Reminder when Izo alone disarmed King and Kawamatsu put King in his place.


If King should show off advanced Haoshoku Haki, I'm expecting King=Kaido posts to spring up. These fanboys have an insane workrate

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Karma (Oct 2, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Zoro being already injured doesnt mean we can infer that he would have definitely been fine if he wasnt.


???

Its basic logic that a person is weaker wen theyre hurt. There r countless cases within OP of a battered character getting strined by ppl under their weight class.

TB is what it took on top of everything else to knock Zoro out. If it coukd knock out 100% on its own then deathbed Zoro would have been reduced to a bloody puddle. This isnt a video game where the health limit is 0 and all damage past that point just vanishes


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## MrPopo (Oct 2, 2021)

Luffy wins


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## forkandspoon (Oct 2, 2021)

I think a serious blood lusted Luffy who is aiming to 1 shot king is the only way Luffy beats king…. Otherwise Luffy is either getting fucked up or just dropped in the ocean.


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 2, 2021)

Togs said:


> Zoro with his physical strength can't push back Apoo.


But he was pushing Apoo back in the next panels which you conveniently cut out



Togs said:


> while Dressrosa Luffy pushed back Fujitora far away.


With several attacks. And remember who also pushed back Fujitora in Dressrosa, not only with physical strength, but physical strength from a distance?



Togs said:


> And King can't even bypass Zoro block.


uhm that's not a block, that's 2 attacks meeting



Togs said:


> while Boundman easily bypassed Katakuri block who is above Luffy in physical strength who is above Zoro.


So let me get this straight
Zoro's attacks aren't just physical strength, because Enma and Haki. But Luffy using his DF in a complex manner to multiply his power tenfold and adding so much haki to his attacks that he actually runs out in 10 minutes is pure physical strength?

By the way, if you're arguing Luffy is above Zoro in physical strength, don't use Luffy being above Zoro in physical strength as evidence of it.



Togs said:


> King physical strength is far below Boundman. It can't bypass Zoro block who can't overpower Apoo while BOundman can bypass katakuri block who easily overpowered Luffy who pushed back top tier Fujitora.


This is some high tier bullshitting indeed. Ignoring Zoro also pushed back top tier Fujitora, ignoring that Zoro did overpower Apoo, and ignoring that King did overpower Zoro's block, as well as Zoro's attack.



Togs said:


> In term of damage Kaido slash ripped Kiku arm while King with his all out attack can't kill this guy.




vs




Did you actually type that shit with a straight face?

Reactions: Like 7


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## Quipchaque (Oct 2, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Katakuri without Bagura <= Pre Udon Luffy < Bagura Katakuri and King ?  _



What's bagura?


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## Bonney (Oct 2, 2021)

King is highly durable, fast and has hard hitting physicality, unlike Katakuri who is a frail (for YC1) speedster type with evasive style. He straight up has the power and strength to go head to head with G4 but with much more stamina. His sword is a big danger here. 

Fact is though that Katakuri is downplayed severely, 1st he threw away his weapon which had Luffy on the backfoot which is a nerf., I mean he had to rely on blunt force against a rubberman, without plot bullshit replace some of those hits with his trident and Luffy is toast. Luffy got to have a number of free shots on him after the donuts, which added battle damage for free. He got many rest breaks and plot BS to protect him. Luffy was not actually YC1 level at all at the start of Wano, only in Snakeman is he that level and only briefly. 

Luffy was nerfed when Kaido one shotted him, he was clouded with emotion and wasn't using his future sight correctly.

King & Katakuri > Beginning of Wano Luffy with no plot bullshit involved.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 5 | Neutral 1


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## Togs (Oct 2, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> But he was pushing Apoo back in the next panels which you conveniently cut out


He blocked Zoro attack again and again Zoro can't push back Apoo like Luffy who pushed back Fujitora




Strobacaxi said:


> With several attacks. And remember who also pushed back Fujitora in Dressrosa, not only with physical strength, but physical strength from a distance?


Actually 1 attack pushed back Fujitora several meters/distances You can see the distance between sparks indicating the distance between Fujitora was pushed back to with the initial location of Fujitora before he was pushed back by G2.




Strobacaxi said:


> uhm that's not a block, that's 2 attacks meeting


Zoro blocked it with his swords using Tiger Hunt but King still can't bypass Zoro block whose physical strength is far below Dressrosa Luffy.



Strobacaxi said:


> So let me get this straight
> Zoro's attacks aren't just physical strength, because Enma and Haki. But Luffy using his DF in a complex manner to multiply his power tenfold and adding so much haki to his attacks that he actually runs out in 10 minutes is pure physical strength?
> 
> By the way, if you're arguing Luffy is above Zoro in physical strength, don't use Luffy being above Zoro in physical strength as evidence of it.


Yes Zoro scarred Kaido was because he has top tier sword and he used advanced CoC, It's like comparing kid with a gun with an adult. Kid has more lethality (Zoro) while adult has more physical strength (Luffy)



Strobacaxi said:


> This is some high tier bullshitting indeed. Ignoring Zoro also pushed back top tier Fujitora, ignoring that Zoro did overpower Apoo, and ignoring that King did overpower Zoro's block, as well as Zoro's attack.


Fujitora was surprised when Zoro used Flying Slash on him so Fujitora can't block properly. He only blocked with 1 arm and Fujitora was pushed back few meters while against Luffy, Fujitora was on alert mode and blocked with 2 arms and he was pushed back several meters. Much farther.

Zoro never overpower Apoo even with Drake help. If you are that adamant about it provide a panel that proves it.



Strobacaxi said:


> vs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's funny how you conveniently ignored that King also flapped his wing on ZOro so his wing slash+wing flap caused Zoro to be pushed back.



while Kaido didn't amp his flying slash with his club swing. So it's clear why King could push back Zoro who can't overpower Apoo. Kaido flying slash ripped Kiku arm while King with his all out attack can't take down this guy/cut down this guy face. So much for top tier ap lol.



I typed these with manga facts which are provided through manga panels. Unlike you who conveniently ignored King also flapped his wing on Zoro to push back Zoro who already blocked his flying slash.


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## Louis-954 (Oct 2, 2021)

This @Togs guy is on that booger sugar... 

I leave this one to you @Strobacaxi. Have fun.


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## Togs (Oct 2, 2021)

Louis-954 said:


> This @Togs guy is on that booger sugar...
> 
> I leave this one to you @Strobacaxi. Have fun.


It will be an easy slaughter

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Oct 2, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> What's bagura?



_It's Mogura i don't know why i called it Bagura   _


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## Louis-954 (Oct 2, 2021)

Togs said:


> It will be an easy slaughter


You remind me of @Beast

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Empathy (Oct 2, 2021)

Post-Udon Luffy would for sure beat King. Pre-Udon Luffy might lose after a very difficult fight, but it’s not like Luffy beat Katakuri in a fair 1v1 either. I’d be very surprised if King ends up strong enough to give an Admiral anything more than mid difficulty, though.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Beast (Oct 2, 2021)

Louis-954 said:


> You remind me of @Beast

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MO (Oct 2, 2021)

king best shot is to outlast Luffy g4. King isn't a tricky fighter tho from what we know so he would be easier to take down than katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## convict (Oct 2, 2021)

Louis-954 said:


> You remind me of @Beast



He is in fact a dupe of _an infamous_ poster and will be handled accordingly.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Winner 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 2, 2021)

Karma said:


> ???
> 
> Its basic logic that a person is weaker wen theyre hurt. There r countless cases within OP of a battered character getting strined by ppl under their weight class.
> 
> TB is what it took on top of everything else to knock Zoro out. If it coukd knock out 100% on its own then deathbed Zoro would have been reduced to a bloody puddle. This isnt a video game where the health limit is 0 and all damage past that point just vanishes


"Thunder Bagua knocked Zoro out while he was injured, therefore it would not have knocked him out if was uninjured."

The first statement is not proof of the second. You must realize this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 2, 2021)

convict said:


> He is in fact a dupe of _an infamous_ poster and will be handled accordingly.


Is it JayJay32 ?


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## MrPopo (Oct 2, 2021)

Or @A Optimistic

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> King gon beat him just like Katakuri could've


Luffy was going to tear the mask off

King starts acting some type of way and just randomly stabs himself

Luffy pulls off a win.



DarkRasengan said:


> Luffy with g4 and futuresight takes this extreme difd


He's going to gas out on the G4 before King even starts to feel the burn.

I mean you clearly saw the nig outright tank an onigiri from zoro.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## A Optimistic (Oct 2, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Or @A Optimistic

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 2, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> He's going to gas out on the G4 before King even starts to feel the burn.
> 
> I mean you clearly saw the nig outright tank an onigiri from zoro.


And why is that impressive? 

Because Zoro did it?

Onigiri's prior feats in Wano are knocking out Killer and doing nothing to Kaido.

What suddenly makes it so strong that King tanking it means he can tank Kong organs, gatlings and KKG?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 2, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Luffy was going to tear the mask off
> 
> King starts acting some type of way and just randomly stabs himself
> 
> ...


King is a loving Big Bro with powers and personality similar to Luffy? 

If not then the bonding won't happen.

And if King doesn't have FS forbLuffybto want to learn then Luffy prolly wouldn’t decide to stay and fight him in order to learn FS in the first place


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> King is a loving Big Bro with powers and personality similar to Luffy?
> 
> If not then the bonding won't happen.
> 
> And if King doesn't have FS forbLuffybto want to learn then Luffy prolly wouldn’t decide to stay and fight him in order to learn FS in the first place


Yup Luffy would see the face, not give a shit and King all of a sudden joins him.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> And why is that impressive?
> 
> Because Zoro did it?
> 
> ...


Kaido was tanking those kong gun attacks at the start of wano  too genius.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Karma (Oct 2, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> "Thunder Bagua knocked Zoro out while he was injured, therefore it would not have knocked him out if was uninjured."
> 
> The first statement is not proof of the second. You must realize this.


The more hurt someone is the weaker they become. If it could knockout healthy Zoro then itd turn deathbed Zoro to mush.

Muscles and skin tear, bones break. All these things weaken the body. If i survive a punch while i barely have the strength to stand up, then i can take it at my best. If smth can knock me out cold wen im healthy, then itll probably kill me wen im already at my deathbed. The skin, muscles and bone that just made it so i got knocked out r no weaker meaning theyll give in, making the attack reach my organs.

Idk if over explaining my stance. This is just such a bizzar thing to argue

Reactions: Agree 4


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## TheOmega (Oct 2, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Yup Luffy would see the face, not give a shit and King all of a sudden joins him.


What in the Naruto


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

All these king threads will age well.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> What in the Naruto


Luffy is making friends everywhere he goes.

Only a matter of time until you see him and Akainu fight together.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Luffy is making friends everywhere he goes.
> 
> Only a matter of time until you see him and Akainu fight together.



Directly stated and shown vs Mihawk aswell as the most dangerous power on the sea.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 2, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Luffy is making friends everywhere he goes.
> 
> Only a matter of time until you see him and Akainu fight together.


Against Koby and Shanks right?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 2, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Kaido was tanking those kong gun attacks at the start of wano  too genius.


Yeah because two attacks did nothing to Kaido doesn't mean they are at the same level. The effect of Kong gun and Gatling on King will not be the same as Onigiri.

Big Mom had to use her flame Haki coating to tank a Kong Gun from a weaker Luffy, King's not that durable to withstand a direct hit and a barrage of them, not when Marco is making him spit blood with Kicks that Big Mom caught without even using Haki

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 2, 2021)

Karma said:


> The more hurt someone is the weaker they become. If it could knockout healthy Zoro then itd turn deathbed Zoro to mush.


No attack and especially not blunt force has ever turned any character to mush....It seems like your argument is this:

"Injured Zoro's body didn't visibly disintegrate so Healthy Zoro must be able to tank it"

Am I understanding you correctly? You think if Luffy had been hit by Thunder Bagua twice he would have exploded or something? Odd argument since we've seen already that eating enough damage to render you unconcious does not prevent your body from soaking more damage while...maintaining the integrity of its form?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Yeah because two attacks did nothing to Kaido doesn't mean they are at the same level. The effect of Kong gun and Gatling on King will not be the same as Onigiri.
> 
> Big Mom had to use her flame Haki coating to tank a Kong Gun from a weaker Luffy, King's not that durable to withstand a direct hit and a barrage of them, not when Marco is making him spit blood with Kicks that Big Mom caught without even using Haki



Zoro's attacks are comparable to Luffy's.  So it  works especially when the same person is being used.

In Regards to Big Mom there's nothing to compare her with regards to Zoro so using that scene to hype G4  aginst Zoro is pointless.

Making someone spit blood  doesn't mean much of anything.  All of the flame attacks and flying knees at mach speed king received at the end he was standing alongside queen like nothing happened.

Against the likes of King Luffy wasn't going to beat him without the advanced COA.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 2, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Zoro's attacks are comparable to Luffy's. So it works especially when the same person is being used.


Based on what? Apart from doing nothing to Kaido together when have they Onigiri and Kong gatling comparable?




Canute87 said:


> In Regards to Big Mom there's nothing to compare her with regards to Zoro so using that scene to hype G4 aginst Zoro is pointless.


I'm not using that scene against Zoro, I'm using it against King. If Marco's weak hits could make King bleed, then Luffy will do worse to him.




Canute87 said:


> Making someone spit blood doesn't mean much of anything. All of the flame attacks and flying knees at mach speed king received at the end he was standing alongside queen like nothing happened.


Doesn't matter when that Luffy hits way harder than Marco does.




Canute87 said:


> Against the likes of King Luffy wasn't going to beat him without the advanced COA.


Luffy didn't learn advanced CoA to beat/surpass King so you're just making this up.

Advanced CoA was learnt to face Kaido, not a BDSM enthusiast who's more noted for his race than his power.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Based on what? Apart from doing nothing to Kaido together when have they Onigiri and Kong gatling comparable?



Onigiri has constantly been used as a technique to finish opponents off.  In the context of current Zoro who has just started to unlock his COC haki and has the ennma blade it's a far more dangerous technique than G4



Kagutsutchi said:


> I'm not using that scene against Zoro, I'm using it against King. If Marco's weak hits could make King bleed, then Luffy will do worse to him.


Making someone bleed is bare minimum.

I saw flamingo getting hit my multiple G4 attacks  one rhino attacks straight in the face and he still managed, King is a fuck ton more tougher than Flamingo.



Kagutsutchi said:


> Doesn't matter when that Luffy hits way harder than Marco does.


So does Zoro,  and we are back again at the start.



Kagutsutchi said:


> Luffy didn't learn advanced CoA to beat/surpass King so you're just making this up.
> 
> Advanced CoA was learnt to face Kaido, not a BDSM enthusiast who's more noted for his race than his power.


He's also an ancient Zoan, denoted for their toughness resilience and recovery.  The fact that start of wano  Luffy HAS to go G4 to even fight King makes this a losing battle.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 2, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Onigiri has constantly been used as a technique to finish opponents off.


Still doesn't make it stronger than Gear 4.



Canute87 said:


> In the context of current Zoro who has just started to unlock his COC haki and has the ennma blade it's a far more dangerous technique than G4


Yeah starting to unlock CoC doesn't make your hits stronger. And using Enma also doesn't make your hits stronger than Gear 4 just because too.




Canute87 said:


> Making someone bleed is bare minimum.


That's why Luffy is fracturing King's skull with his blows.




Canute87 said:


> I saw flamingo getting hit my multiple G4 attacks one rhino attacks straight in the face and he still managed, King is a fuck ton more tougher than Flamingo.


I saw Doflamingo manage to eat Gear 4 hits despite having his organs destroyed by Gamma Knife and also use Bird Cage. King has taken nothing to suggest he can withstand a much stronger Gear 4 like Doffy 




Canute87 said:


> So does Zoro, and we are back again at the start


If you ignore Luffy forcing an Emperor to use flaming Koka yes.




Canute87 said:


> He's also an ancient Zoan, denoted for their toughness resilience and


So what? The F6 is full of ancient Zoans, what does that matter when they're getting bombarded with Gear 4 hits?




Canute87 said:


> The fact that start of wano Luffy HAS to go G4 to eve


The fact that King can't even tag base Luffy should tell you who wins

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Still doesn't make it stronger than Gear 4.


Yes it does.  To not acknowledge that is to not acknowledge zoro's  increase in strength.   If you still think G4 at the start of wano is anything to current Zoro now we have a problem.  The dude has gased out from every single opponent he has fought in G4 before he has beaten them.  From flamingo, Cracker, Katakuri,  King who canonically stronger than 2/3 and tougher than all three of them will clearly outlast the G4.




Kagutsutchi said:


> *Yeah starting to unlock CoC doesn't make your hits stronger.* And using Enma also doesn't make your hits stronger than Gear 4 just because too.


Zoro went from not doing barely doing shit to kaido as you mentioned to giving him a permanent scar

Using haki does make the hits stronger  and as you saw from the very first swing once he got that blade Zoro his attack power has increased expoentially.  Zoro has done more hurt to Kaido through out the rooftop fight more than Luffy managed to do with his barrage the first time he fought kaido and got clapped.



Kagutsutchi said:


> That's why Luffy is fracturing King's skull with his blows.


When luffy hit cracker the first time he commented on how tough his haki was,  this was a clear cut case  cracker, the   third commander was stronger  than flamingo, So  you have cracker managed to fight this mofo, flamingo and katakuri 
The ancient zoan FIRST MATE of Kaido's crew  is having no issues here.

Luffy's haki prior to wano couldn't even win in an outright exchange with katakuri, katakuri's haki was still tougher and katakuri is a glass cannon compared to King .



Kagutsutchi said:


> I saw Doflamingo manage to eat Gear 4 hits despite having his organs destroyed by Gamma Knife and also use Bird Cage. King has taken nothing to suggest he can withstand a much stronger Gear 4 like Doffy



 

Man you should have just taken the L  once i brought up Kaido,   There's nothing more to say here, I'm done.  See you in other threads.

Reactions: Winner 6


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

convict said:


> King is bizarre enough so the reasoning behind it should be as well.


Yes because King not just a YC1 like Katakuri.

Ups, he is.


Eustathios said:


> then King isn't that far from his captain


Yes he is, the same how Kata was to BM.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

So before any feats for King  Zoro was low diffs King now King low diffs Wano Luffy.

Neah fam you guys are just a bunch of Tier specialists.



icyBankai said:


> Luffy would be in for the fight of his life, possibly even tougher than his fights against Lucci and Katakuri.


A legit take.

King can win but is extreme diff.



Beast said:


> Who’s is making new accounts to spit facts like this?
> 
> I like it
> @Togs


You are wasting your time.

Zoro didn't have feats and he said he is stronger than Luffy becuase the roofTop.

Now if I tell him that Luffy's feats shit on Zoro with Asura, he will complain.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Oct 2, 2021)

Just off top, I need to see more from King before I can say anything. He's pretty tough, but we also know how Oda does with the stall battles before the actual main fights. He had King and Queen fighting Marco, so Marco looks good because he's holding them both off and knocking them around while also mass healing a bunch of people infected by Ice Oni. King and Queen outlast under those circumstances. Then he runs out of juice and that's that.

This fight with Zoro is where I'm gonna draw King's feats from, and even then this is basically a Zoro on a temporary senzu bean.



Fisherman John West said:


> King shouldn't be far from Kaido like people think if he can literally do attacks greater than Kaido
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean that slash breath is a spam attack that Kaido uses in his weakest form. It's crowd control. No offense Kiku, but I only take that move but so seriously. By comparison, King's attack is a Hybrid form attack that seems dead serious. I do like that King basically has a super move that's based on one of his boss' special attacks, but King seems to actually be putting effort into it.



Dunno said:


> Luffy gets slaughtered. King is fighting a far superior opponent to that version of Luffy and doing well. If you can't react to Kaido, can't damage him and get one-shot by him, you aren't putting up a fight against King.


Luffy gets slaughtered? First of all, he certainly picked up some levels after his fight with Katakuri, even if Katakuri yielded instead of getting beaten clean. Half of day of fighting for his life would certainly boost his skills. And as of yet, Future Sight is still a huge advantage against anyone.


Sweet Tomato said:


> 5-Kings fire attack will burn Katakuri's mochi and turn everything on his path to Ash.


Mochi doesn't burn like that. There's zero evidence of Katakuri's mochi burning at all. Mochi paste actually has water content in it. It's no more flammable than any other material, and certainly not more susceptible to being burned than Zoro's flesh.



Dunno said:


> No-one but Luffy has done as bad against TB. Zoro took one after breaking most of the bones in his body blocking Hakai, and he was concious right after. Law took one straight up and was fine. Yamato took one and took a bit of damage but was still able to fight. Luffy is the only one Kaido has been one-shotting, and that's because he was weak as fuck. Luffy's feats are Luffy's own. Extrapolating them to people whom he has no relation to is nonsensical. I could also claim that Kaido gets sent flying off the island by King's attacks "just like everyone else", and it would be exactly as good of an argument.





Karma said:


> Ppl in this section have selective memory
> 
> Deathbed Zoro took a stronger version of
> TB and was still conscious





Karma said:


> Luffy is literally the only relevant character to get one shoted by TB
> 
> Do u think Kings strongest attack will do more or less damage to Zoro then TB?


Factually inaccurate. Zoro was knocked out and was a cross mummy wrapped by Sanji before he regained consciousness.

Luffy has gotten knocked out because he's been the only one strong enough and crazy enough to actually go head to head with Kaido in a straight fist fight. Kid and Killer drew off Big Mom, while Law and Zoro both got wiped out by Kaido as soon as Kaido didn't have as many numbers against him to deal with.

Cannot be determined, we haven't seen King's strongest attack.



Quipchaque said:


> Lol come now.... that is ridiculous. King scales to Zoro who easily dealt with this once he used ashura.


Dealt with what? Raimei Hakke? Zoro didn't deal with anything, he activated Asura and attacked, was left in overheat and then was finished off by Raimei Hakke.


Karma said:


> It seems ur right, his first speech bubble after TB was with Sanji
> 
> But it doesnt rlly change the argument, death bed Zoro got knocked out by a stronger attack then the one used on Luffy.
> 
> The argument doesnt rlly change, tho. There is no way King's strongest attack doesnt have a similar result on the Zoro that took the TB



I think it's immaterial, Zoro would've gotten knocked out by any application of Raimei Hakke.

Why? Why would King's strongest attack be comparable to Kaido's signature in his Hybrid form?

If King's strongest attack can knock out Zoro as easily as Thunder Bagua, then the battle is just a performance until King wins.



forkandspoon said:


> I think a serious blood lusted Luffy who is aiming to 1 shot king is the only way Luffy beats king…. Otherwise Luffy is either getting fucked up or just dropped in the ocean.


I don't see how Luffy is getting dropped into the ocean. King doesn't save that attack until the end, he seems to like using it early against tough opponents. Luffy's pretty good about not getting dropped in the drink. He can stretch and grab onto something or go Gear Fourth and fly. It's notable that Kaido was able to do it, but even then, he knocked Luffy almost completely out first.


Canute87 said:


> He's also an ancient Zoan, denoted for their toughness resilience and recovery. The fact that start of wano Luffy HAS to go G4 to even fight King makes this a losing battle.


Luffy has to go Gear Fourth against most of his tougher opponents since he got it. That basically signifies that the opponent is that strong, it doesn't mean that Luffy can't win. Start of Wano Luffy should have to use Gear Fourth judiciously to fight King. He'd need to use Future Sight intelligently and likely lean on Snakeman, until it's time for Boundman.

I'm not willing to just place King over Start of Wano Luffy outright, til I see some advanced Haki usage. I see it being an extreme difficulty match either way, akin to Luffy vs Rob Lucci.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5 | Informative 1 | Neutral 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I mean that slash breath is a spam attack that Kaido uses in his weakest form. It's crowd control. No offense Kiku, but I only take that move but so seriously. By comparison, King's attack is a Hybrid form attack that seems dead serious. I do like that King basically has a super move that's based on one of his boss' special attacks, but King seems to actually be putting effort into it.



Kings attack was a nameless aimless spam crowd control attack that hit friend and foe alike and blasted Zoro into another area of Onigashima, while kaidous air slashes get pimped slapped by Zoro, yet we hold kaidou's attack to different standards?

OL its ok if a captain and right hand are around each other in power, its not the 1st time and it wont be the last time.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Just off top, I need to see more from King before I can say anything. He's pretty tough, but we also know how Oda does with the stall battles before the actual main fights. He had King and Queen fighting Marco, so Marco looks good because he's holding them both off and knocking them around while also mass healing a bunch of people infected by Ice Oni. King and Queen outlast under those circumstances. Then he runs out of juice and that's that.
> 
> This fight with Zoro is where I'm gonna draw King's feats from, and even then this is basically a Zoro on a temporary senzu bean.
> 
> ...


/thread.

As always my man



Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I'm not willing to just place King over Start of Wano Luffy outright, til I see some advanced Haki usage. I see it being an extreme difficulty match either way, akin to Luffy vs Rob Lucci.


My take exactly.


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

When reactions arent enough.

double post 

& circle jerk until monolith.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Oct 2, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> Kings attack was a nameless aimless spam crowd control attack that hit friend and foe alike and blasted Zoro into another area of Onigashima, while kaidous air slashes get pimped slapped by Zoro, yet we hold kaidou's attack to different standards?
> 
> OL its ok if a captain and right hand are around each other in power, its not the 1st time and it wont be the last time.


That's fair, and I was surprised the attack wasn't named, but it is obvious that it's a lot stronger than Kaido's slash breath. I mean, most of Kaido's dragon form attacks are rather underwhelming even if they are visually awesome.

I don't really hold Captains and Firsts as being around the same level.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Creative 1


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## Karma (Oct 2, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> while Law and Zoro both got wiped out by Kaido as soon as Kaido didn't have as many numbers against him to deal with.


Law didnt go down iirc


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I think it's immaterial, Zoro would've gotten knocked out by any application of Raimei Hakke


In general or at that moment?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Klue (Oct 2, 2021)

Karma said:


> Law didnt go down iirc



He was done for if he ain't leave.


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

Klue said:


> He was done for if he ain't leave.


And that attack was not hit on the head as Luffy's.

And the damage was split in two.


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## Karma (Oct 2, 2021)

Klue said:


> He was done for if he ain't leave.


 

He opted out of fighting Kaido to fight Meme


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## Klue (Oct 2, 2021)

Karma said:


> He opted out of fighting Kaido to fight Meme



Zoro was out, Luffy was tossed into the sea......


Law vs Kaido.

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Ren. (Oct 2, 2021)

Klue said:


> Zoro was out, Luffy was tossed into the sea......
> 
> 
> Law vs Kaido.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 2, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Dealt with what? Raimei Hakke? Zoro didn't deal with anything, he activated Asura and attacked, was left in overheat and then was finished off by Raimei Hakke.



That is not quite true. He blocked it 4 times and then cut Kaido. Finishing Zoro off while his body was full of broken bones from a tag team attack is hardly praise-worthy.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Oda Report (Oct 3, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I don't really hold Captains and Firsts as being around the same level.



Not all captain and right hands duos are created equally, however there is a nice amount of captains and right hand duos that are around the same level.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## ClannadFan (Oct 3, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> People simply overestimated the gap between Yonko and the rest.


You're the only one other than me that seems to realize this. There's a reason all the Yonkou fans are in denial of Law and Kidd=Big Mom, even though it's literally happening right now.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 3, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> You're the only one other than me that seems to realize this. There's a reason all the Yonkou fans are in denial of Law and Kidd=Big Mom, even though it's literally happening right now.



Add me to the list of common sense readers, there was 3 great power balance for a reason.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mihawk (Oct 3, 2021)

Luffy is historically the most overrated character in the manga by his MC gloryhole brigade.

/Jk

But on a serious note, the OL is weird...People really think the FMs are fodder lol. King beats Pre-Udon Luffy. The latter’s portrayal against a drunken Kaido in their first encounter was pathetic lmao.

Marco would have an even easier time. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that indicates that Katakuri/King/Marco are equals, and it’s time folks understood this. They will see this when we get some Beckmann action.

Rooftop Luffy who just unlocked aCoC would win against either one fosho.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 2


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## MrPopo (Oct 3, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


>


Do you know who it was


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## A Optimistic (Oct 3, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Do you know who it was



nope

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Beast (Oct 3, 2021)

Kata a glass?

Someone link some Kata and Cracker VCs, people are starting to confuse them... add pictures.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Beast (Oct 3, 2021)

convict said:


> He is in fact a dupe of _an infamous_ poster and will be handled accordingly.


Shit, @Togs Hope you make it out the other side bruh!


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## Mariko (Oct 3, 2021)

Since I rank King in the same tier as Kata, I'd say high/extreme diff.

Pretty hard to say though.

If Luffy isn't plot nerfed and can use FS properly, in snakeman form it could be mid/high diff depending on King's toughness.

But we lack datas about Kings abilities. 

Could be either way.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## p1X3 (Oct 3, 2021)

Mariko said:


> Since I rank King in the same tier as Kata, I'd say high/extreme diff.
> 
> Pretty hard to say though.
> 
> ...


Tbh I don't think Luffy was 1st Commander level until post Udon. And then in chapter 1010  conquerors haki, Luffy surpassed every 1st commander in the series.   He's currently in the midway point between 1st commander and Yonko.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 3, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> No attack and especially not blunt force has ever turned any character to mush....It seems like your argument is this:
> 
> "Injured Zoro's body didn't visibly disintegrate so Healthy Zoro must be able to tank it"
> 
> Am I understanding you correctly? You think if Luffy had been hit by Thunder Bagua twice he would have exploded or something? Odd argument since we've seen already that eating enough damage to render you unconcious does not prevent your body from soaking more damage while...maintaining the integrity of its form?



Dude watched too much hellsing.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## o0Shinthi0o (Oct 3, 2021)

p1X3 said:


> Tbh I don't think Luffy was 1st Commander level until post Udon. And then in chapter 1010  conquerors haki, Luffy surpassed every 1st commander in the series.   He's currently in the midway point between 1st commander and Yonko.


Its one thing to think Kata > Luffy but to think Luffy was not in his lvl seems just wrong to me .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Oct 3, 2021)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Its one thing to think Kata > Luffy but to think Luffy was not in his lvl seems just wrong to me .


Neah people ignore the manga all the time for their Fan fiction.

I mean King is now close to Kaido...

Said no one but them

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ren. (Oct 3, 2021)

p1X3 said:


> Tbh I don't think Luffy was 1st Commander level until post Udon


Yes I mean you have a manga panel where the character drawn by Oda says he is the same level.

Then you have chapters with SN that has FS dominating Katakuri.

But please stop me from breaking your delusion.

Now you have Luffy in Kaido's general level, next arc you will say that he never was.


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## Maruo (Oct 3, 2021)

Beast said:


> Kata a glass?
> 
> Someone link some Kata and Cracker VCs, people are starting to confuse them... add pictures.



Tbf, he is a glass cannon compared to WCI Luffy at least. He didn't seem that much more durable than Doflamingo, which would leave him with relatively low defenses for YC1.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ruse (Oct 3, 2021)

So this is pre udon right? King should win don’t think Luffy was convincingly above Katakuri until the end of his prison training.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## o0Shinthi0o (Oct 3, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Tbf, he is a glass cannon compared to WCI Luffy at least. He didn't seem that much more durable than Doflamingo, which would leave him with relatively low defenses for YC1.


Or may be , just a wild thought , Luffys offense is not that bad

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Maruo (Oct 3, 2021)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Or may be , just a wild thought , Luffys offense is not that bad



Well yeah, but I don't think the attacks he used against Katakuri were stronger than the ones he used against Doflamingo? Doflamingo seems to have impressive durability for YC3, but Katakuri just slightly exceeding that still leaves him with low durability for YC1. This is fine since he makes up for it with FS.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Oct 3, 2021)

Karma said:


> Law didnt go down iirc


Law took the hit to the chest not the head, not that anyone would want to get a Kanabo to the sternum. But he evacuated after Luffy demonstrated that he could actually hurt Kaido.



Karma said:


> In general or at that moment?


In general. An iron mace to the head is an iron mace to the head. Zoro's Haki has certainly improved but not to the degree that Luffy's has and he doesn't have Future Sight and a rubber skull and brain.


Quipchaque said:


> That is not quite true. He blocked it 4 times and then cut Kaido. Finishing Zoro off while his body was full of broken bones from a tag team attack is hardly praise-worthy.


Blocked what? Raimei Hakke/Thunder Bagua? Zoro never blocked Raimei Hakke. The only ones who held that attack off are Luffy after he learned Haohshoku Infusion and Yamato. And to my eye he'd have knocked him out regardless of the Ocean Sovereignty.


Maruo said:


> Tbf, he is a glass cannon compared to WCI Luffy at least. He didn't seem that much more durable than Doflamingo, which would leave him with relatively low defenses for YC1.


I don't know, Katakuri was pretty damn unfazed overall until he used Mogura on himself to even the free shot he got on Luffy because of Flampe's fuck ass.

Reactions: Like 1


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## p1X3 (Oct 3, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Yes I mean you have a manga panel where the character drawn by Oda says he is the same level.
> 
> Then you have chapters with SN that has FS dominating Katakuri.
> 
> ...


Katakuri had devil fruit awakening ,great haki,  future sight and weapon mastery.....These are the abilities of a 1st commander. Luffy prior to udon training only had  future sight......... that's one ability.  Kat was good in multiple fields.

 After the Ryuo Training he then had, *Future sight*, *Ryuo/Flow, * and It seemed his *devil fruit utilization improved a bit going in and out of gear 4. *Thats why I said Post Udon Luffy is officially 1st Commander, *meaning he could beat some 1st commanders but not all. 

1010 is when Luffy could now defeat every 1st Commander in the One Piece Series in a 1v1. 

*

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Fujitora (Oct 3, 2021)

Kylo Ren said:


> Luffy win this. Extreme diff.
> 
> How is King in diffirent level.
> 
> ...


A sane Zoro fan, you and @A Optimistic are people I respect.



Quipchaque said:


> King should likely win this. He is currently *beating someone that gave Kaido hell.*


Gross exaggeration here.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Fujitora (Oct 3, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Of early Wano Luffy couldn't beat a YFM or YC1 like everyone swears he can't here, then Oda would simply show us that. He would have Luffy lose to King as you people seem so hell-bent on saying he would. He would have Kaido say Luffy wasn't even as strong as King. But he doesn't, he does the exact opposite of that.
> 
> I swear to god, the One Piece powerscaling and vs battles community uses the most headcanon and nonsensical thinking to justify their faves winning a fight.


/thread



Eustathios said:


> It should be obvious by now that if Luffy beats Kaido after all his powerups, then King isn't that far from his captain and can give him a good fight. Call it a


How is Luffy beating Kaido correlate to King not being far from Kaido?


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## A Optimistic (Oct 3, 2021)

Luffy wins, he's already defeated a YC1. I still think King is a bit stronger than Katakuri but Luffy always gets a bit stronger after every arc so it balances out. Also King will struggle dealing with Luffy's future sight.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Ren. (Oct 3, 2021)

p1X3 said:


> Katakuri had devil fruit awakening ,great haki,  future sight and weapon mastery.....These are the abilities of a 1st commander. Luffy prior to udon training only had  future sight......... that's one ability.  Kat was good in multiple fields.
> 
> After the Ryuo Training he then had, *Future sight*, *Ryuo/Flow, * and It seemed his *devil fruit utilization improved a bit going in and out of gear 4. *Thats why I said Post Udon Luffy is officially 1st Commander, *meaning he could beat some 1st commanders but not all.
> 
> ...




Mate Luffy has G4 that shits on YC1's AP including King.

KKG is above what he did to Zoro.

and KKG is just a kong Gun + G3, imagine a leo Rex Bazooka, a KKG gatlling.

Let me tell you  King has no FS, no advace COA no adv COC.

No Marco has no FS, no Advance COA no adv COC just a broken DF.

DD had awakening and FS WCI Luffy shits on him

You tier specialists don't understand most of this manga, when Oda makes a character say he is the same level as him that was meant for those like you, the same way he had to put that clash in 1026 and later he had to make Yamato say they looked like WB vs Roger.


Katakuri had devil fruit awakening ,great haki,  future sight and weapon mastery.


But let's take this: awakening so did DD so that is not a YC1 only mastery as Awakening will put Luffy above Admiral level.

Luffy also had good haki and He has FS, weapon mastery so what does that have to do with a non weapon users, Luffy has godly master with his DF, 3 gears, G4: 3 forms.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## walter18x (Oct 4, 2021)

Post udon luffy is clearly stronger than all yc1
In fact he knock out kaido for a moment and wake up quickly from a ragnaraku to the head and has energy to fight kaido for a while after that
He has the ap, speed and endurance for them

Now early wano luffy goes either way with all of them
Yes, kaido one shot him but who yc1 has show tb ap to replicate that feat?
Katakuri? No
Marco? No
King? No
And this luffy endurance and stamina > wci luffy
And he become stronger in battles

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Commanderbilli (Oct 4, 2021)

You are to look at the stats. King is perfectly balanced to beat G4 boundman and snakeman. 
He is faster than boundman, possessing speed that breaks the sound barrier, has more ancient
zoan endurance and his AP wild. It's like fighting a better balanced version of G4

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> He is faster than boundman, possessing speed that breaks the sound barrier


Mate these fighters can fight Kizaru aka LS.

Sound barrier .

Kuro was above sound barrier in speed.


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## TheRealSJ (Oct 4, 2021)

Some of you need to reread what you post before you post it. Luffy had so much trouble with Katakuri simply because he was a better version of him in every way.  Couple that together with insane observation haki and Luffy is fighting a pseudo - logia which is what he had trouble with alot during  pre-timeskip.



In the mirror world it could be said Luffy was actually fighting 2 battles. One to surpass his own limits and the other to surpass Katakuri himself. King is strong sure yes but as a zoan he has no has apart from his brute physicality, which Luffy is no stranger to in a 1v1. It's almost like some of you were forgetting during WCI Zoro was weaker than Luffy and in Wano he first had to get stronger then surpass WCI Luffy.


However, don't get me wrong. I believe the difference between commanders is representative of the difference between  the yonko.

Just as Kaido>=Big Mom, King>=Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 4, 2021)

King high diffs. Fact is I don't see pre udon Luffy being able to hurt him without G4 and even with it, he's not going to last long enough to eventually put King down. FS is a major advantage but can only go so far once Luffy exhausts himself using G4.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 4, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Blocked what? Raimei Hakke/Thunder Bagua? Zoro never blocked Raimei Hakke. The only ones who held that attack off are Luffy after he learned Haohshoku Infusion and Yamato. And to my eye he'd have knocked him out regardless of the Ocean Sovereignty.



Yeah he blocked it when he used ashura. 3 times actually not 4 but still.


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Pre Udon Luffy wasn't decisively above YC1 lvl. Even aCoA Luffy is questionable since the general consensus was aCoA Luffy=Marco. Only aCoC/zenkai Luffy is clearly above any FM.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Yeah he blocked it when he used ashura. 3 times actually not 4 but still.


those were normal swings tho, not tb

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> those were normal swings tho, not tb


Zoro blocked combined might of 2 yonko for a few seconds. I am pretty sure he can block bagua. And King can block it too I think or at least survive with some damage. Okobore was an oultier. Ancient hybrid zoan shouldn't go down in just 1 hit. Not even the strongest hit,since Ragnarok is stronger than bagua and Hakkai is massively stronger.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Corax said:


> Zoro blocked combined might of 2 yonko for a few seconds. I am pretty sure he can block bagua.


NO.

You forget to tell us that he was so fucked after that he needed a deus ex machina to even stand.

He was KOed after that, in bandages.



Corax said:


> Ragnarok is stronger than bagua and Hakkai is massively stronger.


What you don't understand is Bagua is not hard because it is strong but fast.

If he hits you on the head you are out and yes Zoro.

We are not talking about blocking but getting hit.

Zoro deflected  Hakkai, he didn't get hit it directly like Luffy got hit by Boro breath.



Corax said:


> Pre Udon Luffy wasn't decisively above YC1 lvl. Even aCoA Luffy is questionable since the general consensus was aCoA Luffy=Marco


So what that means King needs extreme before ACOA and Luffy high-extreme diffs him after ACOA not the crap I am reading here.

King at max can extreme diff Wano Luffy before his first PU.

Now he low diffs him.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> So what that mes King needs extreme before ACOA and Luffy high-extreme diffs him after Acoa.
> 
> Now he low diffs him.


I don't think even Kaido can low. diff his right hand man. At worst low. mid. May be some bagua and/or Ragnarok to put King down. King also can fly and bombard him from distance.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Corax said:


> I don't think even Kaido can low. diff his right hand man. At worst low. mid. May be some bagua and/or Ragnarok to put King down. King also can fly and bombard him from distance.


No Kaido can low diff him.

King's bombardment would do no damage. Kaido can also fly. And king does zero damage to Dragon with his current feats.


Bagua is enough for King.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> No Kaido can low diff him.
> 
> King's bombardment would do no damage.
> 
> Bagua is enough for King.


Bagua won't even hit him. Bagua can't fly. Kaido will have to jobber dragon to even reach King at sky lvl.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 4, 2021)

Corax said:


> Zoro blocked combined might of 2 yonko for a few seconds. I am pretty sure he can block bagua. And King can block it too I think or at least survive with some damage. Okobore was an oultier. Ancient hybrid zoan shouldn't go down in just 1 hit. Not even the strongest hit,since Ragnarok is stronger than bagua and Hakkai is massively stronger.


I believe Zoro could block tb with even less damage than law, but the man was arguing he blocked 3 baguas after hakai which didnt happen


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Corax said:


> Bagua won't even hit him. Bagua can't fly. Kaido will have to jobber dragon to even reach King at sky lvl.


What why would Kaido not put him down.

You are practically saying that King would fly around.

Mate Luffy was flying with G4  and was clubed. And Luffy has FS  to predict, he got even better with FS and he almost got clubed again.


When King attacked he gets baguaded like Luffy. You actually have this in the manga.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 4, 2021)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> those were normal swings tho, not tb



Huh? It was a named attack. It is right there in a bubble in plain sight. Are you joking me?


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

@Corax  read the manga:




Luffy was flying.


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> What why would Kaido not put him down.
> 
> You are practically saying that King would fly around.
> 
> ...


Luffy was on the ground and 10-20 meters away from Kaido. King's wind scythes can bombard Kaido from 1000's meters away from the sky lvl. He has all tools to at least make this fight somehow troublesome.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Huh? It was a named attack. It is right there in a bubble in plain sight. Are you joking me?


post it lol
there's no way i'd miss that

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Corax said:


> Luffy was on the ground and 10-20 meters away from Kaido. King's wind scythes can bombard Kaido from 1000's meters away from the sky lvl. He has all tools to at least make this fight somehow troublesome.





Ren. said:


> @Corax  read the manga:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Luffy has Gepo ... 

And he was clubbed.

TB is fast AF, even FS Luffy on the rooftop almost did not dodged it.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> post it lol
> there's no way i'd miss that


Those were normal swings.
Similar to this:

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 4, 2021)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> post it lol
> there's no way i'd miss that





Bottom right panel. It seems to be even stronger than thunder bagua given that he renamed it.


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Luffy has Gepo ...
> 
> And he was clubbed.
> 
> TB is fast AF, even FS Luffy on the rooftop almost did not dodged it.


He has gepo. But he was standing of the ground 20 meters away from Kaido or so. In the blitz distance and not ready. He wasn't far away in the sky.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Bottom right panel. It seems to be even stronger than thunder bagua given that he renamed it.


That is not the stance for TB.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Corax said:


> He has gepo. But he was standing of the ground 20 meters away from Kaido or so. In the blitz distance and not ready. He wasn't far away in the sky.


Mate he was blitz, distance does not matter, he went for the counter.

He countered a FS man ...

King does not counter the one the counter a Gep G4 with FS.

Well with his current feats.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Bottom right panel. It seems to be even stronger than thunder bagua given that he renamed it.


Im 99% sure everything after 'demonic nine sword style' is all zoro

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Bottom right panel. It seems to be even stronger than thunder bagua given that he renamed it.


Asura: Hell Hakkei is the name of Zoro's technique.  Speech bubble is just confusing.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Bottom right panel. It seems to be even stronger than thunder bagua given that he renamed it.


By that logic this is TB:



And it is not.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Mate he was blitz, distance does not matter, he went for the counter.
> 
> He countered a FS man ...
> 
> ...


King just can fly to avoid bagua. Kaido will have to catch him in the air in his dragon (or hybrid if it can fly) and put some work at least. It won't be a low. diff or something.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Corax said:


> King just can fly to avoid bagua.


The he doesn't attack.

Tries again Kaido goes for TB.

Zoro did this with Tiger hunt so please don't forget the manga.



Corax said:


> Kaido will have to catch him in the air in his dragon


No this is a vs not a PIS troll Kaido so stop.


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> The he doesn't attack.
> 
> Tries again Kaido goes for TB.
> 
> ...


He can attack. He has wind scythes that have island range or so (Zoro was flung to the edge of the island by one of them). They might not do anything significant to hybrid Kaido but they will be enough to at least make him work for the win (mid.).


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Replace Zoro with Kaido in here





And Kaido does this:


Let's say King is not One shot as he barerely avoids the head.


The next one ends him.
He has wind scythes that have island range
Blocked by the club.


Corax said:


> Zoro was flung to the edge of the island by one of them


Kaido is not Zoro.


Also those will do no damage so what is the point?



Corax said:


> They might not do anything significant to hybrid Kaido but they will be enough to at least make him work for the win (mid.).


No they will do zero damage.

Mate Zoro needed his Enma with Ryo to damage him.

So low diff.


King is not Luffy with ADv COA or Adv COC Luffy.

long range attacks with no ADv COA will do nothing to Kaido.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

And Luffy's current AP is negating Adv COC Hybrid Kaido so they do the same diff to king and both end him easily with Adv COC both low diff.

Luffy has FS and is flexible and fast can Gepo in Snake-man and he low diffs him with ADV COC.


Say Luffy low mid diffs him because he needs Adv COC and Gepo to end him in minutes but Kaido low diff him.

This can change if King has any form of Adv haki.


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## Eustathios (Oct 4, 2021)

OniKaido said:


> How is Luffy beating Kaido correlate to King not being far from Kaido?


Because Zoro is always close to Luffy.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Because Zoro is always close to Luffy.


Not with FS, Adv COC, ADv COA.

Not in the same arc.

This Luffy is close with next arc next PU Zoro.

Zoro is not close to a Yonko level Luffy ... he is not even top tier ... he is facing King.

Zoro was not close to FS Luffy in WCI.

Zoro was not close to G4 with his DR feats.

Zoro was not close to Lucci let alone G2 and G3 Luffy.

Zoro was not close to Jet Shell vs Moria.

I don't even need to mention Enel.

Oda made sure in the same arc they never were close, he has hints of aproaching him the Asura vs Kaido then Oda brings Adv COC and that is another tier of power.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 4, 2021)

Corax said:


> Asura: Hell Hakkei is the name of Zoro's technique.  Speech bubble is just confusing.



Not sure about that. After all it fits perfectly into Kaido's name pattern and there is already an attack name for Zoro's which is farce of the dead.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Not sure about that. After all it fits perfectly into Kaido's name pattern and there is already an attack name for Zoro's which is farce of the dead.


Oh brother that was not Kaido's named attack.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 4, 2021)

Luffy loses. He can't put King down. Has haki pool and stamina issues. 

It was a miracle he barely edged out Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Commanderbilli (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Mate these fighters can fight Kizaru aka LS.
> 
> Sound barrier .
> 
> Kuro was above sound barrier in speed.



Kizaru is faster than snakeman


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> Kizaru is faster than snakeman


Yes and Regular Luffy can dodged lasers in like the start of the TS.

My point was the "sound barrier" speed.

All top tiers are LS in OP. They need to have that stat to even mimic fighting Kizaru.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Oh brother that was not Kaido's named attack.



Either way it is hardly realistic that King gets fodderized when Zoro was constantly giving Kaido hell. Of course YOU will find ways to downplay that though since you practically married Luffy.

Reactions: Funny 6 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Klarionan (Oct 4, 2021)

Gets Luffy the same level of plot armour, he got against Katakuri?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Either way it is hardly realistic that King gets fodderized


So I will have to downplay Luffy's feats because Zoro.

No tanks ... when and only when King stops getting clowned by Marco call me.

My agenda is simple like before feats.

And if I presume corectly I said that king will provide extreme diff wile you and the other muh Zoro said he will mid diff him.

Of course now when it is as I said King is close to Kaido.





Quipchaque said:


> since you practically married Luffy.


I am and to prove it, The Luffy that defeats Kaido will provide to fresh Kaido max high high diff and that Luffy low diffs King and his early Wano self.

The same way that FS Luffy low diffs his pre FS self.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Klarionan (Oct 4, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> However, don't get me wrong. I believe the difference between commanders is representative of the difference between  the yonko.
> 
> Just as Kaido>=Big Mom, King>=Katakuri.


So Oda is a moron, who don't understand how balances of power works, how was Big Mom even still a Yonko if this would be true?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> wile you and the other muh Zoro said he will mid diff him.



Lol never in my life did I say that. I have been saying for years that King will be Zoro's arc fight and that Zoro will go all out against him. I am nothing like the average Zoro-clown. I have hindsight.



Ren. said:


> So I will have to downplay Luffy's feats because Zoro



No but you will go to ridiculous lengths to downplay even Zoro's performance against Kaido even so he was one of the two mvps against him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Klarionan (Oct 4, 2021)

What happens if Zoro fails to one-shot Smoothie in the next arc, becomes Smoothie Yonko tier?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Lol never in my life did I say that. I have been saying for years that King will be Zoro's arc fight and that Zoro will go all out against him. I am nothing like the average Zoro-clown. I have hindsight.


Sure, sure then we have do disagree on King until King has better feats than Kata.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Klarionan said:


> What happens if Zoro fails to one-shot Smoothie in the next arc, becomes Smoothie Yonko tier?


yes

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mihawk (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> since you practically married Luffy.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Winner 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 4, 2021)

walter18x said:


> *Post udon luffy is clearly stronger than all yc1*



LMAO yall really don't get it. Luffy beat Croc and buggy both Seven Armed Seas so Luffy >>> Mihawk.

For a bunch of readers who hate power levels yall sure act as if Luffy is well over 9000.



Ren. said:


> So I will have to downplay Luffy's feats because Zoro.



Lol



Ren. said:


> *No tanks ... when and only when King stops getting clowned by Marco call me.*



Yes because King staying in base or full Zoan means King was very serious during Marcos stalling. What we witnessed last chapter was King playing around with Zoro, until see king full zoan again dancing in the sky. King isnt serious against Zoro, Hybrid be damned and Lurnaian be damned powers as well.

While on the flip side Kaidou full Zoan gets the bias pass.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Can you reply to the dude from above for me?



He didn't understood why I ignore him.


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> While on the flip side Kaidou full Zoan gets the bias pass.


Even Dragon Kaido if you bombard it with KKG and Kong Gatling he feels nothing, You do more damage with Momo's byte.

Don't compare an Easter dragon eaten by a Ypnko that has COC armor.


Dragon Kaido is still hard to even damage, Zoro is damaging King just fine with low end moves.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 4, 2021)

Dang. Ren is beautiful.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Creative 1


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## Ren. (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Dang. Ren is beautiful.


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## Oda Report (Oct 4, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Even Dragon Kaido if you bombard it with KKG and Kong Gatling he feels nothing, You do more damage with Momo's byte.



He felt Zoro more times then once. tho


Ren. said:


> Don't compare an Easter dragon eaten by a Ypnko that has COC armor.



Who got eaten? 



Ren. said:


> Dragon Kaido is still hard to even damage, Zoro is damaging King just fine with low end moves.



Zoro was damaging Kaidou fine, even disrespecting eastern dragons wind blades for free. again Zoro was able to damage kaidou Even with broken bones. King disrespected Zoro for the utter disrespect and disregard displayed on kaidou. Marco didn't damage full zoan or base king, NOt surprised Zoro was able to damage Kings mask twice, in that short exchange. Seeing how Zoro is able to damage Kings boss. Not that its a big deal since king isn't the one hyped up to be a tank like kaidou.

What you SHOULD take away from that exchange is Kings attack power >= to Zoros, and Oni Giri is a low end move now?!.

Put me back on ignore Ren.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Oct 4, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Yeah he blocked it when he used ashura. 3 times actually not 4 but still.



Normally, I would ask you to post the evidence of this, but I will instead. Zoro went from cutting up Prometheus.


To being replaced by Law.



To immediately attacking with Asura.



In fact in the nine chapters that Zoro was on the roof, Zoro didn't clash with Kaido's Kanabo once on panel. He did not block any iteration of Thunder Bagua.



Corax said:


> Zoro blocked combined might of 2 yonko for a few seconds. I am pretty sure he can block bagua.


For a certain value of blocked. It did shatter his skeleton. It was more of a sacrifice. Then Law saved everyone by teleporting them. It's damned impressive to briefly hold that, no doubt, but it's a different situation than Thunder Bagua. It's like saying that because someone blocked the Sunny's Gaon Cannon, that they can also not get cut down by Shishi Sonson. With all three swords and his full Haki in them he was able to make a shield. Thunder Bagua, he gets knocked on the skull before he sees the attack coming.




Corax said:


> And King can block it too I think or at least survive with some damage. Okobore was an oultier. *Ancient hybrid zoan shouldn't go down in just 1 hit.* Not even the strongest hit,since Ragnarok is stronger than bagua and Hakkai is massively stronger.


Didn't Ulti go down in one hit to Yamato's Raimei Hakke? The technique utilizes Haoshoku Infusion and high speed to try to crack someone's skull open. That's not something that most people can deal with at all.



Quipchaque said:


> Huh? It was a named attack. It is right there in a bubble in plain sight. Are you joking me?





Quipchaque said:


> Bottom right panel. It seems to be even stronger than thunder bagua given that he renamed it.



It should be noted that the translators are aware of what's what. The translator has adapted to Viz's official Thunder Bagua, while I just prefer Raimei Hakke. Also, if Kaido was planning to use a stronger version of Thunder Bagua to put Zoro down, why revert to the normal version after he got cut?



Quipchaque said:


> Not sure about that. After all it fits perfectly into Kaido's name pattern and there is already an attack name for Zoro's which is farce of the dead.


It fits Zoro's Buddhist cosmology based naming scheme better.

*Ashura Bakkei: Moja no Tawamure* (阿修羅（あしゅら） 抜剣（ばっけい） 亡者戯（もうじゃのたわむれ） _Ashura Bakkei: Mōja no Tawamure_, literally meaning "Asura Sword-Drawing: Jest of the Dead"):

The attack's name references  (地獄八景亡者戯 "The Eight Scenes of Hell, Jest of the Dead"), a Kamigata  play from the Edo period. Instead of the usual "hakkei" (八景), said kanji are read "bakkei", with the name of this attack using "Bakkei" (抜剣 literally meaning "Drawing One's Sword", though correctly read "Bakken") to play on the pronunciation. Unlike previous Kyutoryu uses, the kanji for "Asura" are accompanied by hiragana, not katakana. The Viz Manga calls the attack *Asura: Blades Drawn Dead Man's Game*.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Informative 2


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## Corax (Oct 5, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Didn't Ulti go down in one hit to Yamato's Raimei Hakke? The technique utilizes Haoshoku Infusion and high speed to try to crack someone's skull open. That's not something that most people can deal with at all.


She was taken by surprise. Yes,she was briefly out. But TB is possible to block or avoid. Law at least partially blocked hybrid bagua on the roof,Luffy avoided it. Law doesn't even have FS. But still he was able to put his sword and partially block the blow to his chest. Law was still hit,but he is more or less fine and fighting BM at this moment.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 5, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> He did not block any iteration of Thunder Bagua



Again it is in the bottom right panel when Kaido raises his club and stands right in front of Zoro. There are 3 little impact effects next to Zoro's swords. Now it is certainly debatable if that was a "casual" Attack or not but we know Zoro blocked it. Otherwise what else are those marks supposed to be?


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## Ren. (Oct 5, 2021)

Corax said:


> But still he was able to put his sword and partially block the blow to his chest. Law was still hit,


That was the same move that Yamato used aka ranged.
He didn't block the one that Luffy was hit with.




It is quite different the damage was split per 2.

They were not hit on their heads.
And unlike G4 they were static, G4 added to the damage with his speed.

From the panels:
Either Kaido was too fast and he blitzed them , see Law the hit landed below his guard.

Or he did it like Yamato and he launched a range  attack on 2 targets.


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## Ren. (Oct 5, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> we know Zoro blocked it


So what So did Yamato with ease.



Zoro was using all that he got.

Here is non Adv COC Luffy blocking Hybrid Kaido with his hands:



And the damage was this:


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## Tenma (Oct 5, 2021)

I place King closer to post-Udon (AdCoA) Luffy than WCI Luffy, so he probably takes it. AdCoA Luffy vs King would be a good fight.

CoC Luffy wrecks King and any other Yonko commander


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## Ren. (Oct 5, 2021)

Guys don't conflict this:



With this:




Hybrid or not the difference is there.


This was also meant to show FS's weakness  again aka be calm and you can use it.








Now if you rush with your gepo and no FS into the club you get KO, G4 or not.

@Amatérasu’s Son  you can use  my panels if you want next time.




Tenma said:


> I place King closer to post-Udon (AdCoA) Luffy than WCI Luffy, so he probably takes it. AdCoA Luffy vs King would be a good fight.


Fair but I put King closer to FS Luffy than to adv COA Luffy.

He showed not one Advance haki so to put hims close to 3 forms is meh.

And the later Luffy has 3 forms of Advance haki, I give King high diff vs  ADv COA Luffy nothing more.

ADv COC Luffy is at best for King low mid diff .

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Tenma (Oct 5, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Guys don't conflict this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ACoA Luffy only has 2 forms iirc. King hasn't yet shown advanced haki but neither has Marco and he's _definitely_ stronger than Katakuri so it's not the end of the world.

I agree comparing random swings from Kaido to AdCoC attacks (especially Bagua his strongest shown move) is pretty dumb.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 5, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Normally, I would ask you to post the evidence of this, but I will instead. Zoro went from cutting up Prometheus.
> 
> 
> To being replaced by Law.
> ...



Interesting. Thanks for sharing!

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Fujitora (Oct 5, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Bottom right panel. It seems to be even stronger than thunder bagua given that he renamed it.


Hell Hakkei is from Zoro dude,read the description It means '' Dead Play'' or ''Play of the dead''

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Breadman (Oct 6, 2021)

King is an overrated wanker that couldn't even stop a Sanji standing right next to him and is currently fighting a post-Kaido battle Zolo and is gonna lose. Luffy takes this.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Breadman (Oct 6, 2021)

Sweet Tomato said:


> These Luffy fans are so biased against King its crazy.
> Next Time Sanji fight Ben Beckmann (Zoro might fight Mihawk) they gonna Say Ben Beckmann = Katakuri too.
> 
> they just dont know when to stop with their Katakuri agenda.



The difference is that Kaido and BM are portrayed as being roughly equals so it would make sense that their YC's are close in strength to each other, meanwhile Shanks' crew has the gimmick of being smaller but each individual member is much stronger.

Reactions: Like 1


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## bil02 (Oct 6, 2021)

King is tougher,more durable and decent speedwise.
Luffy stalemates in g4 before running out of Haki and getting ragdolled.

King high diffs atm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 6, 2021)

OniKaido said:


> Hell Hakkei is from Zoro dude,read the description It means '' Dead Play'' or ''Play of the dead''

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Oct 6, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


>


here my dude you are now green.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 6, 2021)

Post WCI Luffy loses extreme difficulty but Post Udon Luffy wins extreme difficulty.

BTW, by post Udon I mean the Luffy who only learned CoA 2.0. Not the one who underwent weeks worth of training Post Udon to fight Laidou


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## Ren. (Oct 7, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> *Post WCI Luffy loses extreme difficulty but Post Udon Luffy wins extreme difficulty.
> 
> BTW, by post Udon I mean the Luffy who only learned CoA 2.0.* Not the one who underwent weeks worth of training Post Udon to fight Laidou


Fair enough


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Oct 7, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Again it is in the bottom right panel when Kaido raises his club and stands right in front of Zoro. There are 3 little impact effects next to Zoro's swords. Now it is certainly debatable if that was a "casual" Attack or not but we know Zoro blocked it. Otherwise what else are those marks supposed to be?


Actually in that panel Kaido has his Kanabo above his head about to strike down.

However, I see the detail you're talking about and that is interesting. One of them had to close the gap just for any melee to occur. And what is the burst between Kaido and Zoro. Looks like a barrier Haki burst.

Looking at the panels again made me realize something though. Zoro was quite a ways away from Kaido and Luffy when he started. But after the Asura he was behind Kaido.

So I'm trying to place this. Either Zoro moved to Kaido with his attack, which places him on the other side of Kaido, with Kaido now between him and Law.

Kaido moved to Zoro, and then Zoro attacked as a counter. That still puts Kaido between he and Law.

The Issue is that Kaido then laid out Zoro and Law with one Thunder Bagua.

The only way I see it working is if Kaido zig zagged his Thunder Bagua, nailing Zoro and then hitting a U-turn to whack Law. Which is honestly a hype buff for Thunder Bagua. This is kind of supported in the panels. He turns around and looks at Zoro after he cuts him, but he kind of looks back to his left to yell at Law, indicating that Law is indeed behind him.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 8, 2021)

Ren. said:


> here my dude you are now green.



So I guess I was green bull all along.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Van Basten (Oct 8, 2021)

After what we’ve seen, Pre-Udon Luffy possibly loses to King. It’s not a crazy claim. Once he gets ACOA, he dominates though.

I ain’t changing my vote regardless.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mihawk (Nov 30, 2021)




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## LordVinsmoke (Nov 30, 2021)

King Extreme diff


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## Admiral Akanezumi (Nov 30, 2021)

Not sure how Luffy is going to overcome the healing factor without AdCoC. King eventually outlasts him, as he can ignore the damage they inflict on each other.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

Van Basten said:


> After what we’ve seen, Pre-Udon Luffy possibly loses to King. It’s not a crazy claim. Once he gets ACOA, he dominates though.
> 
> I ain’t changing my vote regardless.


Possibly? Definitely. Katakuri let Luffy win back then

Reactions: Like 1


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## Commanderbilli (Nov 30, 2021)

Luffy would lose he has no way of fighting King. King would dodge his attacks in boundman and when he does hit King there won't be much damage + king's armament haki and attack power can hurt boundman. He would be completely outmatched in his forms UNLESS he can use katakuri level future sight which luffy has actually never shown he can


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## Kagutsutchi (Nov 30, 2021)

Imagine thinking you need AdCoC to beat King


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> Luffy would lose he has no way of fighting King. King would dodge his attacks in boundman and when he does hit King there won't be much damage + king's armament haki and attack power can hurt boundman. He would be completely outmatched in his forms UNLESS he can use katakuri level future sight which luffy has actually never shown he can


Even if he had that future sight King is a different fighter from Katakuri. Katakuri wasn't used to frustration and King has Ancient Zoan stamina/endurance.

All he gotta do is wear Luffy down til he doesn't have Haki and then boom blow up next to him, cut him, shoot him or straight up spike knuckle punch the shit outta him

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Commanderbilli (Nov 30, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> Even if he had that future sight King is a different fighter from Katakuri. Katakuri wasn't used to frustration and King has Ancient Zoan stamina/endurance.
> 
> All he gotta do is wear Luffy down til he doesn't have Haki and then boom blow up next to him, cut him, shoot him or straight up spike knuckle punch the shit outta him



The thing is King is probably faster than boundman and has similar core physical capabilities so I don't think there's 
a core stalling element here. Boundman just losses the fight blow for blow

Reactions: Like 2


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## Conxc (Nov 30, 2021)

convict said:


> The one that got oneshotted? He gets smoked. King is on a completely different level. He rolls him repeatedly even in G4.
> 
> King and Marco are comparable to the Luffy that fought Kaido with CoC for a few minutes before going down.


The ratings on this comment even funnier seeing how you were right. FS convict?


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## convict (Nov 30, 2021)

Conxc said:


> The ratings on this comment even funnier seeing how you were right. FS convict?



Honestly it was just common sense. Every single incarnation of Luffy gets so incredibly overrated. I’m sure if agendas were pushed aside I wouldn’t have gotten most of those disagreements.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> The thing is King is probably faster than boundman and has similar core physical capabilities so I don't think there's
> a core stalling element here. Boundman just losses the fight blow for blow



I can dig that. I'm just saying, even if Luffy was able to somehow stall out with FS, the AZ stamina will outlast his Haki/G4 and then Kang can bully him


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

convict said:


> Honestly it was just common sense. Every single incarnation of Luffy gets so incredibly overrated. I’m sure if agendas were pushed aside I wouldn’t have gotten most of those disagreements.


What would the forums be without tOp TiEr bUt StIiL wEaKeR tHaN aDmiRaLs WhO aRe AlsO wEaKeR tHaN YoNkOs So NoT ReAlLy ToP tIeR yEt LuFfY posts lmaoo


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## OG sama (Nov 30, 2021)

Luffy wins, ACoA is going to bypass Kings durability no issue and I’m sure if there’s a trick to Kings durability that goes beyond just punching him real hard, then he will figure that out too.

King also doesn’t have a significant speed advantage in this battle at all, Luffy is not Zoro he’s a hell of a lot more well rounded. Luffys fast, agile, great strength, great speed.

The Luffy downplay is horrible, Luffy beat a FM level guy before Wano, Udon Luffy isn’t losing to King unless King is pulling ACoC out the ass.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> ACoA is going to bypass Kings durability no issue


Shame that Zoro's isn't huh

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffy wins, ACoA is going to bypass Kings durability no issue and I’m sure if there’s a trick to Kings durability that goes beyond just punching him real hard, then he will figure that out too.
> 
> King also doesn’t have a significant speed advantage in this battle at all, Luffy is not Zoro he’s a hell of a lot more well rounded. Luffys fast, agile, great strength, great speed.
> 
> The Luffy downplay is horrible, Luffy beat a FM level guy before Wano, Udon Luffy isn’t losing to King unless King is pulling ACoC out the ass.


Speak of the devil and he shall appear lmaooo

Anyways, Luffy didn't beat Katakuri. Katakuri threw the match.

Kang > SoW Luffy


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## trance (Nov 30, 2021)

king high diffs


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## lightcrowler (Nov 30, 2021)

Since we got confirmation that there’s something tricky going on with Kings durability/defense, i have to revise my initial assessment and increase the difficulty with which Luffy defeats King.

A honest question, since the ones in this thread that voted King are extrapolating Zoros trouble he has in this fight and putting it into Luffys shoes. Which one has higher battle smarts?
Luffy or Zoro?


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## OG sama (Nov 30, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Shame that Zoro's isn't huh


Luffys got internal CoA, Zoro doesn’t have that.

And there’s a trick to Kings durability most likely, and a trick that Luffy will probably figure out with FS.

Y’all think Zoro and Luffy are comparable and I keep telling y’all they aren’t, Luffys got a lot of tricks in the bag that Zoro doesn’t have, he’s a lot more versatile on top of having better firepower(KKG is more powerful than Ashura imo). He’s also much more physically powerful than Zoro is, King won’t be ragdolling G4 around without resistance.


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffys got internal CoA, Zoro doesn’t have that.
> 
> And there’s a trick to Kings durability most likely, and a trick that Luffy will probably figure out with FS.
> 
> Y’all think Zoro and Luffy are comparable and I keep telling y’all they aren’t, Luffys got a lot of tricks in the bag that Zoro doesn’t have, he’s a lot more versatility on top of having better firepower(KKG is more powerful than Ashura imo).


Bro Luffy didn't have Ad CoA before Wano. He's getting washed if he fights Kang when he fights Kaido

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffys got internal CoA, Zoro doesn’t have that.


Hyo's explanation of ryou means Zoro has it


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 30, 2021)

Silver said:


> If King rolled up on Luffy at the *start of Wano* could Luffy have taken him?





OG sama said:


> Luffys got internal CoA

Reactions: Funny 8 | Dislike 1


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

The wank be affectin the eyesight lmaoo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Nov 30, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Hyo's explanation of ryou means Zoro has it


No, Zoros got 2.0 while Luffy has the level above, this is very known information.


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> No, Zoros got 2.0 while Luffy has the level above, this is very known information.


Luffy ain't got shit point 0 when he fights Kaido tho. So the Luffy in question that's fighting King is even less equipped than Zoro


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## Empathy (Nov 30, 2021)

Act I Luffy would probably lose with extreme difficulty, but post-Udon Luffy would take it with high difficulty, most likely. Act I Luffy would beat Queen, though.


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## OG sama (Nov 30, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> The wank be affectin the eyesight lmaoo


Says the Luffy hater and constant down player.


TheOmega said:


> Luffy ain't got shit point 0 when he fights Kaido tho. So the Luffy in question that's fighting King is even less equipped than Zoro


Well in this case he might lose, but that’s going to depend on what Kings real weakness is and if he has AdvCoC or not.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffys got internal CoA, Zoro doesn’t have that.
> 
> And there’s a trick to Kings durability most likely, and a trick that Luffy will probably figure out with FS.
> 
> Y’all think Zoro and Luffy are comparable and I keep telling y’all they aren’t, Luffys got a lot of tricks in the bag that Zoro doesn’t have, he’s a lot more versatile on top of having better firepower(KKG is more powerful than Ashura imo). He’s also much more physically powerful than Zoro is, King won’t be ragdolling G4 around without resistance.


Even tho you’re wrong they’re comparable this is START OF WANO LUFFY if you don’t think that Luffy is at least comparable to zoro (he really isn’t) idk what to say. Once it becomes abundantly clear you’ll change your tune like you always do it just takes a little for you to exit Luffy denial.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OG sama (Nov 30, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Even tho you’re wrong they’re comparable this is START OF WANO LUFFY if you don’t think that Luffy is at least comparable to zoro (he really isn’t) idk what to say. Once it becomes abundantly clear you’ll change your tune like you always do it just takes a little for you to exit Luffy denial.


There is no denial, Luffys versatility is on another level compared to Zoros, we don’t even know if King has sheer durability or if there is some trick to it or not, we don’t even know if he has aCoC or not.

I’m being smart and waiting until King shows all his shit before I start jumping on his nuts unlike a lot of other people.

Too many people obsessed with wanting Zoro to be close to Luffy to really realize that Luffy has beaten these guys already and been there and done that shit already multiple times. Katakuri looked invincible too until all you needed was sheer speed to counter FS. This shit with King right now might not be much different than just finding out the secret to his durability and winning that way. Zoro might not even need ACoC here, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s not even really what’s necessary here.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> There is no denial, Luffys versatility is on another level compared to Zoros, we don’t even know if King has sheer durability or if there is some trick to it or not, we don’t even know if he has aCoC or not.
> 
> I’m being smart and waiting until King shows all his shit before I start jumping on his nuts unlike a lot of other people.
> 
> Too many people obsessed with wanting Zoro to be close to Luffy to really realize that Luffy has beaten these guys already and been there and done that shit already multiple times. Katakuri looked invincible too until all you needed was sheer speed to counter FS. This shit with King right now might not be much different than just finding out the secret to his durability and winning that way. Zoro might not even need ACoC here, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s not even really what’s necessary here.


It doesn’t matter if acoc is necessary. Go read your replies in the current zoro vs udon Luffy and tell me how that makes sense with PRE UDON LUFFY not being comparable to zoro. Katakuri>= beginning of wano Luffy and katakuri is weaker than king


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## BenMazino01 (Nov 30, 2021)

So Early Wano Luffy huh ? Okay.
Early Wano Luffy was pretty strong to be honest.. Boundman, Snakeman, Adv Observation..

Unfortunately he has so many disadvantages.. : G4 has time limits and he lacks the power to bypass enemy with high durability (Kaido all stars and Kaido himself).. His durability itself was lacking..

In his fight against King, I would say it would be a high diff fight for both of them.. King would find it hard to land a decisive hit on Luffy since Luffy has advanced observation while on the hand, Luffy would find it hard to bypass and break through King's unnatural durability since he lacks the power to do so..

King would win in the end though..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Nov 30, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> Even if he had that future sight King is a different fighter from Katakuri. Katakuri wasn't used to frustration and King has Ancient Zoan stamina/endurance.
> 
> All he gotta do is wear Luffy down til he doesn't have Haki and then boom blow up next to him, cut him, shoot him or straight up spike knuckle punch the shit outta him


Well, Luffy ignored Kaido's Boro Breath at point blank range so I don't think he's gonna take much damage from the blast with his Buso Haki.

The thing about King is that clearly there's something going on with him. Now if Haohshoku Infusion is all it takes to bypass his defenses, then that's that. If it's more complex than that, then writing off Luffy may be a bit much even at Start of Wano. If Luffy can win at all it is extreme diff. But now that we know that King has a secret to his strength, we can't really say how Luffy might pull something out until that's revealed.


Strobacaxi said:


> Hyo's explanation of ryou means Zoro has it


Yes and no. There are five stages of Busoshoku Haki. 
*Basic Busoshoku Haki which is the invisible barrier on your skin that lets you connect through devil fruit defenses and protect beyond normal physical durability.
*Hardened Busoshoku Haki, which puts more power and durability into Basic Busoshoku Haki
*Flame Edged Hardened Busoshoku Haki, which is the highest amount of raw Haki you can put into it, seen In Gear Fourth Luffy, Linlin, and Katakuri going all out.
*Barrier Busoshoku Haki, which is a variation on the basic coating of weapons that weapon users like Swordsmen and the Kuja utilize regularly, but utilized without a weapon. This is the variety that was initially introduced via the Sentomaru, the Boa Sisters, and Rayleigh. It's what Hyogoro was trying to teach Zoro.
*Penetrating Busoshoku Haki, which is what Luffy intuited in Udon and what let him initially hurt Kaido. It's also the same technique that Rayleigh used to remove Keimi's slave collar.

Zoro should be at the fourth level easily, the fifth however is what it takes to damage Kaido. However, Zoro's experience coating his swords with Buso Haki is what allows him to easily transition to infusing his swords with Haoshoku Haki.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## OG sama (Nov 30, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> It doesn’t matter if acoc is necessary. Go read your replies in the current zoro vs udon Luffy and tell me how that makes sense with PRE UDON LUFFY not being comparable to zoro. Katakuri>= beginning of wano Luffy and katakuri is weaker than king


I don’t know what you not understanding, pre Udon Luffy was pretty damn strong, yall let that Kaido BS get to y’all’s heads. The man was not in the right state of mind to use FS, it’s a complete outlier feat.

 Not a very good representation of how Katakuri would actually fare fighting Kaido 1v1. It’s what Oda does almost every arc, has Luffy get beat convincingly by the antagonist the first time to hype them later in the arc.


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I don’t know what you not understanding, pre Udon Luffy was pretty damn strong, yall let that Kaido BS get to y’all’s heads. The man was not in the right state of mind to use FS, it’s a complete outlier feat.


How is Luffy being too angry to use CoO an outlier? Don't think you know what outlier means, Luffy was visibly shown to be extremely pissed, it would be an outlier if he used FS while not calm. It's a fact that early Wano G4 got one-shot by Kaido, that G4 Luffy failed to put a scratch on base and Dragon form Kaido, and that Zoro has injured a stronger version of Kaido. King has overpowered Zoro numerous times, and even tanked the same attack Zoro used to make Kaido bleed, so at the very least physically speaking King>>> pre Udon G4.


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## OG sama (Nov 30, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> How is Luffy being too angry to use CoO an outlier? Don't think you know what outlier means, Luffy was visibly shown to be extremely pissed, it would be an outlier if he used FS while not calm. It's a fact that early Wano G4 got one-shot by Kaido, that G4 Luffy failed to put a scratch on base and Dragon form Kaido, and that Zoro has injured a stronger version of Kaido. King has overpowered Zoro numerous times, and even tanked the same attack Zoro used to make Kaido bleed, so at the very least physically speaking King>>> pre Udon G4.


I guess fucking Kinemon and O Kiku are stronger than G4 then, like this is some tier specialist ass shit.

I hate having to explain basic stuff everyone here should already know about the first round of Kaido vs Luffy.

Im just not going to do that shit this time


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## TheOmega (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Says the Luffy hater and constant down player.
> 
> Well in this case he might lose, but that’s going to depend on what Kings real weakness is and if he has AdvCoC or not.


King don't have a weakness. He's an Ancient Zoan which means he has good Physical Stats and he's Lunarian which means he has high survivability.

He's naturally a fuckin beast. Ain't no tricks to it and ain't not weakness to exploit.

He's a fuckin saiyan dinosaur. You either physically beat him down or use hax to bypass his physical stats. Period


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 30, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I guess fucking Kinemon and O Kiku are stronger than G4 then, like this is some tier specialist ass shit.
> 
> I hate having to explain basic stuff everyone here should already know about the first round of Kaido vs Luffy.
> 
> Im just not going to do that shit this time



The fact that it was made a big deal out of Luffy failing to hurt him, Kaido made a big deal of the Scabbards cutting him,and they made a big deal of Luffy finally being able to in chapter 1000 should tell you that Pre-Udon Luffy was weak compared to current him.

Do you also think Big Mom casually blocking G4 Kong Gun is an outlier ??
Or are you saying Big Mom>>>>> Kaido? 

Every feat of a character failing to get hurt from an attack by the great Luffy-sama must be an outlier, even if his opponent is a Yonko? 
 Can't wait to hear you complain about outliers when Luffy's initial attack fails to one-shot Blackbeard

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Beast (Nov 30, 2021)

Not adBH or adCoc means Luffys stamina is still decent enough given what he could all over WCI. 

Luffys stamina problem was getting less and less often till he learned advanced BH or CoC. Frankly depends on if there is anything more for king and/ or if there is a trick with his body/ race. 
King does beat or should I say does outlast Luffy when he first got to the rooftop, loses to advCoC Luffy before or after he got knocked out.


I would say… King needs to show COC to get more recognition in my eyes, he’s always just a little behind Marco, kinda like a Zoro and Sanji thing.


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## Ren. (Nov 30, 2021)

convict said:


> Honestly it was just common sense. Every single incarnation of Luffy gets so incredibly overrated. I’m sure if agendas were pushed aside I wouldn’t have gotten most of those disagreements.


Neah, I think the problem is that you are not neutral on Zoro.
You are one of the agenda pusher and of course you get a lot of heat for that.



Strobacaxi said:


> Shame that Zoro's isn't huh


When did Zoro have the same level of COA??

even Kaido and BM do not have that.


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## Ren. (Nov 30, 2021)

Next time read what we wrote.

...

He said Adv COA Luffy, that is what the other gent quoted.



OG sama said:


> Luffys got internal CoA, Zoro doesn’t have that.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## OG sama (Nov 30, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> The fact that it was made a big deal out of Luffy failing to hurt him, Kaido made a big deal of the Scabbards cutting him,and they made a big deal of Luffy finally being able to in chapter 1000 should tell you that Pre-Udon Luffy was weak compared to current him.
> 
> Do you also think Big Mom casually blocking G4 Kong Gun is an outlier ??
> Or are you saying Big Mom>>>>> Kaido?
> ...


This post is just…. 

And the fact that you make this about Luffy cause you have a hate boner for him is just… like I said Kinemon and kiku are > G4 then, gotcha.



TheOmega said:


> King don't have a weakness. He's an Ancient Zoan which means he has good Physical Stats and he's Lunarian which means he has high survivability.
> 
> He's naturally a fuckin beast. Ain't no tricks to it and ain't not weakness to exploit.
> 
> He's a fuckin saiyan dinosaur. You either physically beat him down or use hax to bypass his physical stats. Period


So he’s such a tank that he literally takes no damage from attacks that even his own captain would take at least some semblance of damage from? Yeah ok I look forward to you being wrong about things as you always are.

No way anyone this late in the series should take a lions song point blank with no damage whatsoever unless they have a hax ability that allows them to do so.

Unless I am to believe King is indestructible unless you have CoC, then clearly there’s some trick to his durability that can be bypassed without the need for that.

Whether that’s sonic waves, internal CoA haki, or something else, Kings durability can be bypassed.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Corax (Dec 1, 2021)

King likely can low to mid. pre Udon Luffy. I seriously doubt pre Udon can even harm him aside from KKG (which will never land on fast aerial opponent).

Reactions: Winner 2


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## ClannadFan (Dec 1, 2021)

I haven't read the whole thread, but OP says start of Wano so that means no AdvCoA. Luffy gets mid diffed. 

If this is Post Udon Luffy then he wins extreme diff.


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## bil02 (Dec 1, 2021)

The problem with this version of Luffy is that he will be needing G4 immediately to stand any kind of chance.
Fs can help Luffy see what is about to come but no guarantee he reacts in time to dodge.
Raid Luffy considered Tankyudon as a very dangerous attack so even Start of Wano Luffy is getting pressured by that attack too.

Tempura Udon and flaming attacks are going to stall Luffy from range.
In Cqc,King's swordsmanship is just as good as Zoro's so Luffy will be needing Fs to stand a chance against King's swords.

Outside KKG and Kong Organ barrage,nothing in Luffy's arsenal is putting King down and even when those connect,there is still King's explosion Luffy has to deal with.

Luffy's G4 duration lasts 30 mins,King can fight equally with Boundman(strength feats) and pressure it with his flying speed,is more lethal with his sword and can mitigate the attacks he takes with the lunarian genes.

Luffy can't hope to win this fight with no powerup,King high diffs.
King will only be looking stronger as chapters go by.

Reactions: Like 4


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## TheOmega (Dec 1, 2021)

OG sama said:


> This post is just….
> 
> And the fact that you make this about Luffy cause you have a hate boner for him is just… like I said Kinemon and kiku are > G4 then, gotcha.
> 
> ...


Kaido literally doesn't block lol. King blocks, Kaido doesn't. Blocking lessens the damage inccured. Simply physics 101 lol.

Ya hyped Loof & Zo so much that anything that doesn't fold doesn't make sense to ya, that's crazy.

You keep saying I be wrong about shit but you never show any type of proof I and several others have made you put your foot in your mouth several times already so I don't know why you keep up this front


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 1, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Next time read what we wrote.
> 
> ...
> 
> He said Adv COA Luffy, that is what the other gent quoted.


... wtf are you even on about? He was the one who first brought up Luffy having Adv COA in this thread, when this thread clearly is about start of Wano Luffy. Are you too illiterate or something man?



OG sama said:


> This post is just….
> 
> And the fact that you make this about Luffy cause you have a hate boner for him is just… like I said Kinemon and kiku are > G4 then, gotcha.


I don't have a hate boner for him, dumb-dumb. Don't try to weasle your way out of this, is Big Mom's feat of her no-selling G4 an outlier yes or no? If yes, then you clearly are a delusional Luffy fanboy, if no, then you unironicallly think Big Mom>>>> Kaido.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## OG sama (Dec 1, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> Kaido literally doesn't block lol. King blocks, Kaido doesn't. Blocking lessens the damage inccured. Simply physics 101 lol.
> 
> Ya hyped Loof & Zo so much that anything that doesn't fold doesn't make sense to ya, that's crazy.
> 
> You keep saying I be wrong about shit but you never show any type of proof I and several others have made you put your foot in your mouth several times already so I don't know why you keep up this front


I know Kaido doesn’t block I literally make that argument in every damn thread. You ain’t teaching me shit Mr. Author.

You haven’t made any point, you told me this was start of Wano Luffy cool. And I told you it’s going to depend on what weakness King has and or if he has AdvCoC. You said King has no weakness, I said that’s bullshit and pointed out why. You just be running your damn mouth,  talking out your damn ass. Newsflash you ain’t the author so go get that stick out your ass. We all give our opinions on this forum, none of us know for a fact what’s going to happen.

Imagine walking around here acting like you know everything but trying to call me out on some BS, that’s lame as hell you better go get you a life instead of trying to be a fortune teller on a damn anime forum buddy.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 1, 2021)

Sooo.... is Big Mom no-selling G4 an outlier too, yes or no?


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## Corax (Dec 1, 2021)

Even aCoA Luffy can't win this. By portrayal at least. Ryo wasn't enough to beat King and Zoro had to use aCoC. I guess no version of Luffy without aCoC can get past King's flame regeneration and durability. We don't even know how hard it will be for aCoC user Zoro in the end (probably high or even extreme difficulty).

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Disagree 3


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## Kamisori (Dec 1, 2021)

Luffy gets his rubber ass beaten.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## bil02 (Dec 1, 2021)

@TheOmega  and  @OG sama   are really rivals huh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheOmega (Dec 1, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I know Kaido doesn’t block I literally make that argument in every damn thread. You ain’t teaching me shit Mr. Author.
> 
> You haven’t made any point, you told me this was start of Wano Luffy cool. And I told you it’s going to depend on what weakness King has and or if he has AdvCoC. You said King has no weakness, I said that’s bullshit and pointed out why. You just be running your damn mouth,  talking out your damn ass. Newsflash you ain’t the author so go get that stick out your ass. We all give our opinions on this forum, none of us know for a fact what’s going to happen.
> 
> Imagine walking around here acting like you know everything but trying to call me out on some BS, that’s lame as hell you better go get you a life instead of trying to be a fortune teller on a damn anime forum buddy.



If Kaido doesn't block and King does then why wouldn't King take less damage?

If we know why King takes less damage then why does there have to be a trick?

if the solution ain't to overpower him then why is Zoro spending a whole chapter developing Haki for more damage output?

You're talkin about a skillset that Luffy didn't have during the time this match would be taking place. So you either didn't read the thread or you're blatantly discussing some incorrect shit on purpose Are you ignorant or malicious? Which one?

I rather walk around than ride gomu gomu pistols all day  you won't have no cheeks left the way you livin. Have a good day. Pro tip: stop reading 2piece, it'll help you think better.



Ayy lmao said:


> ... wtf are you even on about? He was the one who first brought up Luffy having Adv COA in this thread, when this thread clearly is about start of Wano Luffy. Are you too illiterate or something man?
> 
> 
> I don't have a hate boner for him, dumb-dumb. Don't try to weasle your way out of this, is Big Mom's feat of her no-selling G4 an outlier yes or no? If yes, then you clearly are a delusional Luffy fanboy, if no, then you unironicallly think Big Mom>>>> Kaido.



The boy don't read or stop to think. Just runs in head first to save his boo Loofy. Shit crazy.



bil02 said:


> @TheOmega  and  @OG sama   are really rivals huh


Nah that's no rival of mine, just a punching bag who keeps coming back every saturday like Team Rocket

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Karma (Dec 1, 2021)

This version of Luffy only has 15 minutes to take down a durability freak like King before G4 runs out.


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## Gitagon (Dec 1, 2021)

Luffy low diffs. 

Zoro fans trying hard to cope.

Snakeman clears King easily.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## OG sama (Dec 1, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> ... wtf are you even on about? He was the one who first brought up Luffy having Adv COA in this thread, when this thread clearly is about start of Wano Luffy. Are you too illiterate or something man?
> 
> 
> I don't have a hate boner for him, dumb-dumb. Don't try to weasle your way out of this, is Big Mom's feat of her no-selling G4 an outlier yes or no? If yes, then you clearly are a delusional Luffy fanboy, if no, then you unironicallly think Big Mom>>>> Kaido.


BM blocked a G4 attack, and not only did she block it, she did so with hardening indicating that she felt the attack was strong enough for her to at least do that much.

This is pathetic, you aren’t worth even arguing with, you don’t even have basic comprehension of this manga. You going on an on about irrelevant shit and then ignoring my question but I’m the dumb ass? Bringing up everything besides my question but I’m the stupid one?? You can’t hate a character this much to the point where you lack any kind of common sense.


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## OG sama (Dec 1, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> If Kaido doesn't block and King does then why would King take less damage?
> 
> If we know why King takes less damage then why does there have to be a trick?
> 
> ...


Kings literally taking lion songs with 0 damage, there’s no way that should be happening without Hax, not even Kaido or other Top Tiers are taking that attack with 0 damage not even trying to guard.

He might not have a weakness and you could be right, I just don’t find it completely believable. But of course since you are a know it all, your brain just doesn’t operate like that.

Because he kinda just needs one anyway, sure you could be right and you just need sheer strength to beat King but whose to say ACoC is completely necessary? This could be leading up to Zoro using ACoC and that somehow not working either because there’s more to his durability than that. I’m just giving my opinion on things like I keep having to tell you.

It took sheer speed to beat Kata so maybe you are right and it just takes sheer strength to beat King, it makes sense, it completely checks out, cool. Would make King a lot more powerful than any other FM if he has something even more to that like his own ACoC or if you can only bypass his durability with sheer power, not even Marco is THAT broken, but idk and honestly I don’t care I’m just here to give my opinion on stuff, I’m not here to hate off the MC of a cartoon manga every chance I can, that’s extremely lame.

I have admitted I was wrong thousands and thousands of times on this forum, if you want to act like you ain’t never been wrong on here and that your shit doesn’t stink that’s you. But don’t go on here trying to victimize yourself, you have absolutely no right to be downing me and other peoples opinions on a debating site so many times like you have and try to act like I’m the one picking on you.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 1, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> The boy don't read or stop to think. Just runs in head first to save his boo Loofy. Shit crazy.


Fax. Below is a rare pic i found of OG sama after someone told him current Luffy can't low diff prime Roger + Primebeard. 



Apparantly Luffy didn't even need to train in Udon, he was already strong enough to fight Kaido before coming to Wano.


OG sama said:


> BM blocked a G4 attack, and not only did she block it, she did so with hardening indicating that she felt the attack was strong enough for her to at least do that much.
> 
> This is pathetic, you aren’t worth even arguing with, you don’t even have basic comprehension of this manga. You going on an on about irrelevant shit and then ignoring my question but I’m the dumb ass? Bringing up everything besides my question but I’m the stupid one?? You can’t hate a character this much to the point where you lack any kind of common sense.


BM laughed at G4 King Gon and casually blocked it, but shat her pants at Enma and told Kaido to not even bother block it but to specifcally fucking *DODGE it.* King has been blocking and overpowering Enma non-stop.

How you can say I lack reading comprehension when you're too brain-dead to comprehend something as simple as King>non-ashura Rooftop Zoro>>Pre Udon G4 is mind-boggling.  Do you see BM telling Kaido to dodge pre-Udon G4 King Gon ? If so, you're delusional.

You saying I'm pathetic and go and on about irrelevant shit when you're the one who closes your eyes to any feat of someone making a joke out of your dear Luffy-sama, and comes to a thread arguing for ACoa Luffy because you're too much of an illiterate retard to even bother reading the opening post is peak fucking irony dude. I already answered your question, but if you want me to repeat myself again;

The series wouldn't had made a big deal out of the scabbards being able to cut Kaido if it wasn't a big deal + it was also implied they used Oden's haki by Kaido and the black lightning effect. If Pre-udon Luffy was able to hurt Kaido, nobody would had made a big deal out of rooftop Luffy hurting him. Implying otherwise is truly pathetic and peak delusion.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Dec 1, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Fax. Below is a rare pic i found of OG sama after someone told him current Luffy can't low diff prime Roger + Primebeard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She told him to dodge an attack that had more power in it than the other slashes he used on the roof outside of probably Ashura.

I have admitted being wrong on here plenty of times, you know absolutely nothing.

They used Advanced CoA to hurt him, because outside of Enma or having an attack that ignores durability Kaido can not be hurt externally without it. It’s that simple, maybe they were able to somehow use Odens Haki when they scarred him together but they weren’t using Haki on his level before that. Kiku and Kinemon and all the others were able to bypass Kaidos durability on their owns. Luffy couldn’t do it at the beginning of the arc, because he just simply didn’t have Advanced CoA. There’s absolutely no other way you can explain it. Luffy wasn’t too weak to hurt Kaido, he just simply lacked the means. Arguing otherwise is pure denial. The scabbards don’t have more power individually than G4 fucking Luffy.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 2, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Sooo.... is Big Mom no-selling G4 an outlier too, yes or no?


The phrase No-Sell has a specific meaning though. Linlin actively raised a defense and blocked Luffy's Gear Fourth attack.

By contrast Kaido *no sold* Luffy's Gear Fourth attacks at Okobore. Luffy poured on everything he had except King Kong Gun and Kaido got up and looked at him like he was a rookie masseur who didn't have the strength to beat down into the deep muscle tissue.


Ayy lmao said:


> BM laughed at G4 King Gon and casually blocked it, but shat her pants at Enma and told Kaido to not even bother block it but to specifcally fucking *DODGE it.* King has been blocking and overpowering Enma non-stop.


At the time she also said that Luffy had no hope defeating Kaido referring to him as that Thing. Her reaction to Luffy punching Kaido hard enough to hurt him was shock.

While King has been blocking and pushing through Enma, Zoro hasn't put as much raw power into Enma as that attack Linlin warned Kaido to dodge as of yet. Part of the point of this last chapter though was that Zoro has been holding back that strength.


OG sama said:


> Kings literally taking lion songs with 0 damage, there’s no way that should be happening without Hax, not even Kaido or other Top Tiers are taking that attack with 0 damage not even trying to guard.


Zero damage isn't entirely accurate.



He cut a seam into him, it just regenerated. Recall a few chapters ago that he blasted part of King's mask off. So not only does King regenerate, but his Gimp Suit does too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Dec 2, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> The phrase No-Sell has a specific meaning though. Linlin actively raised a defense and blocked Luffy's Gear Fourth attack.
> 
> By contrast Kaido *no sold* Luffy's Gear Fourth attacks at Okobore. Luffy poured on everything he had except King Kong Gun and Kaido got up and looked at him like he was a rookie masseur who didn't have the strength to beat down into the deep muscle tissue.
> 
> ...


Damn I think you got it, he’s definitely got to be regenerating, I never even realized his suit even repaired itself.

It’s almost exactly like Marcos flames, I can’t wait to see the explanation behind this.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 2, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Damn I think you got it, he’s definitely got to be regenerating, I never even realized his suit even repaired itself.
> 
> It’s almost exactly like Marcos flames, I can’t wait to see the explanation behind this.


Wait a minute. If Germa Lineage Factor modification is based on Lunarians...is the Raid Suit actually based on Lunarian technology?


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## ClannadFan (Dec 2, 2021)

Remember start of Wano Luffy still had Pre Mature Ejackulation problems. He has no way of putting King down in 10 mins.


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## Ushiromiya Battler (Dec 3, 2021)

King isn't fast enough to hit FS Luffy and Luffy doesn't have ACoA to damage King hard.

It is a stalemate, just like how Kata vs King is a 50-50 stalemate as well.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 3, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> The phrase No-Sell has a specific meaning though. Linlin actively raised a defense and blocked Luffy's Gear Fourth attack.
> 
> By contrast Kaido *no sold* Luffy's Gear Fourth attacks at Okobore. Luffy poured on everything he had except King Kong Gun and Kaido got up and looked at him like he was a rookie masseur who didn't have the strength to beat down into the deep muscle tissue.


personally, i dont think kaido wasn't using haki at all, pretty sure he just have passive invisible haki around him. yes he wasnt blocking but he was still defending. if Kaido's non-haki defense is > WCI G4, then AdCoc + Coa Kaido would be lightyears ahead of current luffy.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> At the time she also said that Luffy had no hope defeating Kaido referring to him as that Thing. Her reaction to Luffy punching Kaido hard enough to hurt him was shock.
> 
> While King has been blocking and pushing through Enma, Zoro hasn't put as much raw power into Enma as that attack Linlin warned Kaido to dodge as of yet. Part of the point of this last chapter though was that Zoro has been holding back that strength.


yea Luffy and Zoro did shock her, but im saying early wano Luffy would never have given BM any reaction at all. How do you figure Zoro has been outputting less power against King than Kaido?


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 3, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> personally, i dont think kaido wasn't using haki at all, pretty sure he just have passive invisible haki around him. yes he wasnt blocking but he was still defending. if Kaido's non-haki defense is > WCI G4, then AdCoc + Coa Kaido would be lightyears ahead of current luffy.


As I understand it and has been continuously said by characters, Kaido's durability comes from his dragon scales, apparently even in his base oni-human form. That would be my preferred interpretation of a zoan awakening, receiving benefits from the Zoan's abilities even while in human form.

But Haki has always been described as the solution to hurting Kaido and Big Mom, in Kaido's case it hasn't been said to be the problem.

He does use Haohshoku infusion on Raimei Hakke though.


Ayy lmao said:


> yea Luffy and Zoro did shock her, but im saying early wano Luffy would never have given BM any reaction at all.



I don't agree. I mean he has no way to win against her of course, but Linlin has shown that she considers Gear Fourth a respectable enough power up that she'll raise an active defense rather than let her iron balloon skin do all the work.



Ayy lmao said:


> How do you figure Zoro has been outputting less power against King than Kaido?


Because he was holding back. That's what I gathered from the chapter. Enma basically punishes Zoro by sucking his Haki when he isn't driving himself to his absolute limit.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 3, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> As I understand it and has been continuously said by characters, Kaido's durability comes from his dragon scales, apparently even in his base oni-human form. That would be my preferred interpretation of a zoan awakening, receiving benefits from the Zoan's abilities even while in human form.


While it is possibly because of awakening i doubt it. Unless zoan awakening is active 24/7, then it makes no sense that kaido has such a hard time killing himself. Seastones or jumping in the ocean should do the trick. It's either because of his race or haki.



Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I don't agree. I mean he has no way to win against her of course, but Linlin has shown that she considers Gear Fourth a respectable enough power up that she'll raise an active defense rather than let her iron balloon skin do all the work.


BM was smiling and laughing at G4 tho, sure she blocked it, but she hardly considered him a threat. if WCI G4 were to attack Kaido with BM by her side, you think she would tell him to dodge?



Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Because he was holding back. That's what I gathered from the chapter. Enma basically punishes Zoro by sucking his Haki when he isn't driving himself to his absolute limit.


but didnt it do this while on the rooftop too? or am i remebering wrong?


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 3, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> While it is possibly because of awakening i doubt it. Unless zoan awakening is active 24/7, then it makes no sense that kaido has such a hard time killing himself. Seastones or jumping in the ocean should do the trick. It's either because of his race or haki.


Well people attribute Zoan regen as why his cuts from the Scabbards are already healed up, so it is kinda consistent.

And it would make sense for him to find it so difficult to kill himself if he unlocked a level of his ability where his defense becomes physically permanent.

Though him being an Oni may have something to do with it as well.



Ayy lmao said:


> BM was smiling and laughing at G4 tho, sure she blocked it, but she hardly considered him a threat. if WCI G4 were to attack Kaido with BM by her side, you think she would tell him to dodge?



She smiles and laughs at a lot of things, she thinks she's invincible. But despite that she still raised the highest level of Buso hardening to take him on.

That said, not she wouldn't tell him to dodge, she didn't even do that when Rooftop Luffy attacked Kaido, and she was shocked that Kaido was getting knocked around. Enma produced an obviously dangerous aura to her, and judging by the damage it did versus the damage Rooftop Luffy did to Kaido, Enma likely spiked higher in Haki than Gear Fourth.



Ayy lmao said:


> but didnt it do this while on the rooftop too? or am i remebering wrong?


Enma doesn't do it one hundred percent of the time because it is kind of in a tug of war with Zoro's control. It's always trying to draw out his max power, but Zoro can usually keep it in check. Against King right now he's nursing full body damage, running on an emergency drug, and heavily mentally fatigued because of that. It's a positive though, since Zoro's been pushed into a corner he's reached a greater understanding of Enma.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 4, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Well people attribute Zoan regen as why his cuts from the Scabbards are already healed up, so it is kinda consistent.
> 
> And it would make sense for him to find it so difficult to kill himself if he unlocked a level of his ability where his defense becomes physically permanent.
> 
> Though him being an Oni may have something to do with it as well.


Well as I was saying, a quick dive in the ocean should take care of that lol. Also, he should hate BM, since she would be the cause of his immortality, but instead he was in debt to her because of it


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> She smiles and laughs at a lot of things, she thinks she's invincible. But despite that she still raised the highest level of Buso hardening to take him on.
> 
> That said, not she wouldn't tell him to dodge, she didn't even do that when Rooftop Luffy attacked Kaido, and she was shocked that Kaido was getting knocked around. Enma produced an obviously dangerous aura to her, and judging by the damage it did versus the damage Rooftop Luffy did to Kaido, Enma likely spiked higher in Haki than Gear Fourth.


Black CoA is the hardest level? Was this ever confirmed? And whether it was just the aura or haki that she sensed, you at least agree Rooftop Zoro is much stronger physically than WCI Luffy?


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Enma doesn't do it one hundred percent of the time because it is kind of in a tug of war with Zoro's control. It's always trying to draw out his max power, but Zoro can usually keep it in check. Against King right now he's nursing full body damage, running on an emergency drug, and heavily mentally fatigued because of that. It's a positive though, since Zoro's been pushed into a corner he's reached a greater understanding of Enma.


Ah I see.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 5, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Well as I was saying, a quick dive in the ocean should take care of that lol. Also, he should hate BM, since she would be the cause of his immortality, but instead he was in debt to her because of it


I wonder. Sea Water does not deactivate a devil fruit. It removes a person's ability to control their devil fruit. So Jack couldn't have transformed into a Mammoth on the ocean floor and was paralyzed.

If my hypothesis is correct and awakening a Zoan also enables traits from said Zoan to apply while you're in base, then Kaido who ate a Fish Fish Fruit thrown in water may not be able to transform or swim, but he also wouldn't be able to drown.

But that question comes up a lot, you would think that drowning Devil Fruit users would be the most common execution method on the Grand Line.

And he does hate Big Mom, and that's just personal from Rocks, it doesn't change the fact that she gave him an incredible weapon. But she's the one who says he owes her a debt, he was like "Fuck you you fat bitch, stay off my island!"



Ayy lmao said:


> Black CoA is the hardest level? Was this ever confirmed? And whether it was just the aura or haki that she sensed, you at least agree Rooftop Zoro is much stronger physically than WCI Luffy?


No. The highest level of Hardening. If you look at the panel when she clashes with Boundman her Black Buso Haki has a flame pattern around the edge. The only other time this is seen is when Luffy is using Gear Fourth where we know he's burning his Buso Haki at the highest level and when Katakuri was facing Snakeman and going all out. That seems to me to be clear evidence that it's a visual indicator of the strongest of that variety of Buso Haki usage.

I don't agree that Zoro is physically stronger than Luffy as that's a vague and imprecise measurement. Luffy despite his size and the fact that he isn't constantly working out like Zoro has consistently been shown to be freakishly strong at every stage. We also have very few pure strength feats between the two of them that aren't influenced by Haki or transformations. I supremely doubt that Zoro is physically stronger than Gear Fourth Boundman though.

Furthermore, the attack that we're discussing wasn't strength reliant, but Haki reliant. If Zoro uses an extreme amount of Haki via Enma then he can spike his cutting damage above Gear Fourth's blunt force damage. But conversely, I have no reason to believe that Luffy couldn't break off the Horn of Onigashima either. Pre-Skip Luffy *was* brute force tossing around stones of that scale on Amazon Lily in his rage over Ace dying.

As far as Whole Cake Island Luffy, I have said before and I'll say again, that you have to use the right tool for the right job. For instance, because Zoro's primary fighting style is sharp force based, how he focuses on cutting strength, I have great confidence that Zoro could've fought and defeated Cracker with much less difficulty than Luffy did. Luffy fighting Cracker was like a guy trying to punch his way through a squad of cops with Riot Shields, it was a bad type matchup. Zoro who has ranged attacks and has honed the skill of cutting through hard objects is much better equipped for that opponent.

If you then want to look at Zoro vs Katakuri, I'm not sure just yet. He has the same advantages against Katakuri as he does againt Cracker, but I don't think he'd pick up future sight as easily which is rather critical when fighting Katakuri if you can't get around his mochi with water like Jinbe, but Pedro showed that you could deflect it with a blade so maybe. I'm more concerned with how current Zoro would even tag Katakuri. Hitting Katakuri is the first obstacle.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## TheOmega (Dec 5, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Kings literally taking lion songs with 0 damage, there’s no way that should be happening without Hax, not even Kaido or other Top Tiers are taking that attack with 0 damage not even trying to guard.
> 
> He might not have a weakness and you could be right, I just don’t find it completely believable. But of course since you are a know it all, your brain just doesn’t operate like that.
> 
> ...


Top Tiers can take several attacks with 0 damage while guarding. This is a stupidass claim lol. We seen people blocking G4 attacks, WB quakes, Mihawk slashes, magma fists, etc etc all with 0 damage

He's a race known for survival and has a dragon zoan. He's gonna have high survivability  2+2=4 not hax

Who said AdCOC is necessary? That's just the tool being used to increase Zoro's attack output so that he can finally start to overpower King.

It didn't take sheer speed to beat Katakuri. Katakuri chose to give up the match after being won over by Luffy's guts, perseverance and personality.

Marco can literally get his hard blown off and be okay, as can several other characters. This is a manga with magic fruits

Just cuz you take alotta Ls don't mean the rest of us do too lol.


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## Captain Altintop (Dec 5, 2021)

King seems to be a worse matchup for Luffy as well, despite being very slightly above Kata.

King >/~ Pre Udon Luffy ~ Katakuri >/~ WCI Luffy

Plus King won't be as friendly or merciful against Luffy unlike Kata who should have extreme-ish diff. WCI Luffy for sure instead of losing because playing too much or showing empathy towards Luffy.

King wins *extreme *(_low_) diff. - 8-9 /10 times.


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## TheNirou (Dec 5, 2021)

King stomps this version of Luffy with mid diff. 

King can just outlast G4's times up and then one shots base Luffy, it's simple as that. Pre Udon Luffy can't even damage him lmao, King is a wild beat, he isn't pathetic like Katakuri.

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Oda Report (Dec 5, 2021)

King not even close. 

Luffy fanboys are the worst.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## maupp (Dec 6, 2021)

Options should be whether King low diff or neg diff that Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maupp (Dec 6, 2021)

Also people bringing up G4 running out as reason for Luffy to lose haven't been paying attention. G4 Luffy also get rolled by King. Zoro whose AP was troubling Kaido was no sold by King and G4 Luffy on the rooftop didn't show anything special against Kaido(heck Luffy acknowledged that his attacks were too shallow to truly damage Kaido). G4 Luffy attacks meet the same fate Zoro's attacks have had against King so far. 

AdCoC Luffy would be needed to take on King, he has nothing to put him down with outside of it. If his G4 were shit against Kaido, so would they against King. 

Also Luffy has to be one of, if not THE most overrated character in these sort of match ups. Seems like being the MC gives carte blanche to some people to just write whatever delusional hilarity that comes to mind and think it should slide.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 2


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## Beast (Dec 6, 2021)

Only a fanboy will tell you how Luffy doesn’t have the AP to put down King. 

Ever since G4, Luffys problems haven’t been because of AP… far far far from it. Be it DD, Cracker, Kata or Kaidou right now. 


King gets folded with each G4 hit. And King Kong gun makes sure his race stays extinct.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Commanderbilli (Dec 6, 2021)

Beast said:


> Only a fanboy will tell you how Luffy doesn’t have the AP to put down King.
> 
> Ever since G4, Luffys problems haven’t been because of AP… far far far from it. Be it DD, Cracker, Kata or Kaidou right now.
> 
> ...



His problems with Kaido was attack power tho Adcoc is an attack power upgrade.


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## Beast (Dec 6, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> His problems with Kaido was attack power tho Adcoc is an attack power upgrade.


Nah, he couldn’t get past his scales without advance BH, Advanced CoC is now to fight and exchange hits with Kaidou equally. 

Luffy was still massively weaker then Kaidou in every stat and was enraged. 

Luffys AP has always been high for his level and with G4 it became ridiculous and worthy of top tier status but nothing else, his speed and the biggest thing haki was far too weak.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Empathy (Dec 6, 2021)

maupp said:


> Also people bringing up G4 running out as reason for Luffy to lose haven't been paying attention. G4 Luffy also get rolled by King. Zoro whose AP was troubling Kaido was no sold by King and G4 Luffy on the rooftop didn't show anything special against Kaido(heck Luffy acknowledged that his attacks were too shallow to truly damage Kaido). G4 Luffy attacks meet the same fate Zoro's attacks have had against King so far.
> 
> AdCoC Luffy would be needed to take on King, he has nothing to put him down with outside of it. If his G4 were shit against Kaido, so would they against King.



Kaidou only had trouble with Zoro’s aCoC Ashura. King tanking/healing Zoro’s non-CoC weaker moves doesn’t really have any bearing on Luffy’s G4.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Commanderbilli (Dec 6, 2021)

Beast said:


> Nah, he couldn’t get past his scales without advance BH, Advanced CoC is now to fight and exchange hits with Kaidou equally.
> 
> Luffy was still massively weaker then Kaidou in every stat and was enraged.
> 
> Luffys AP has always been high for his level and with G4 it became ridiculous and worthy of top tier status but nothing else, his speed and the biggest thing haki was far too weak.



So kaido's scales were too tough for his AP

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Oda Report (Dec 6, 2021)

Empathy said:


> *Kaidou only had trouble with Zoro’s aCoC Ashura. *King tanking/healing Zoro’s non-CoC weaker moves doesn’t really have any bearing on Luffy’s G4.



you got reach mayne ever decide to take those talents outside of OL?   

Seriously tho If the bold was the case Luffy would be digested in dragon kaidous stomach.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## maupp (Dec 6, 2021)

Empathy said:


> *Kaidou only had trouble with Zoro’s aCoC Ashura*. King tanking/healing Zoro’s non-CoC weaker moves doesn’t really have any bearing on Luffy’s G4.


 

Zoro's tatsumaki which is a mid end move of his had Kaido squealing and wailing while vomiting blood(and luffy). Not long before that the suicidal Kaido had rediscovered the value of life when he high tailed away from Zoro's dragon's blaze. Go reread the fight, Kaido had issues dealing with Zoro's attacks.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## OG sama (Dec 6, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> So kaido's scales were too tough for his AP


Don’t even try to go here, unless you want to tell me that Kinemon and O Kiku have better AP than G4 Luffy this is a desperate ass argument.


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## Commanderbilli (Dec 6, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Don’t even try to go here, unless you want to tell me that Kinemon and O Kiku have better AP than G4 Luffy this is a desperate ass argument.



What I love about one piece is how messy it is there's always another argument. I hope you know what I'm going to say:
Kinemon and O Kiku don't have adcoc and luffy isn't using what they used. He is using something to quote kaido 'only the very strongest' use


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## Oda Report (Dec 6, 2021)

Zoro had the EZiest time damaging kaidou while Luffy had to get up to speed, that's what happened on da roof top.

Luffy fans still da worst.


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## OG sama (Dec 6, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> Zoro had the EZiest time damaging kaidou while Luffy had to get up to speed, that's what happened on da roof top.
> 
> Luffy fans still da worst.


Yeah that explains why Zoro wasn’t doing any damage with Killers help initially but yet Luffy pummeled Kaidos face into the ground with a G3 attack as soon as the fight started.

Zoro fans with their selective reading, they are in fact da worst.


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## Oda Report (Dec 6, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Yeah that explains why Zoro wasn’t doing any damage with Killers help initially but yet Luffy pummeled Kaidos face into the ground with a G3 attack as soon as the fight started.



How many times did Luffy train to even hurt kaidou with such shallow punches before haki bloom? while all Zoro needed to do was adjust his haki out-put. Damaging kaidou with throw away attacks like dragon twister, or making the yonkou  duo act out mobb deeps shook ones? Or even permanently damaging hybrid kaidou with a body of broken bones after saving the entire team. 

and still saving Luffy for a 3rd time.   



OG sama said:


> Zoro fans with their selective reading, they are in fact da worst.



Are we watching the same show bro bro? because you only cite what fits ya narrative yet ignore that Zoro was a MVP on the rooftop and had the easiest time damaging kaidou, while Luffy had to play catch up.

Thank god for Luffy's right hand (Zoro) otherwise ya favorite SH would have been a fish turd.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Empathy (Dec 9, 2021)

maupp said:


> Zoro's tatsumaki which is a mid end move of his had Kaido squealing and wailing while vomiting blood(and luffy). Not long before that the suicidal Kaido had rediscovered the value of life when he high tailed away from Zoro's dragon's blaze. Go reread the fight, Kaido had issues dealing with Zoro's attacks.



Kaidou’s dragon form is a big punching that went white-eyed when Momo bit him. Zoro’s mid-end moves without aCoC didn’t accomplish anything/threaten Kaidou any more than the dozens of other attacks he took from everybody else in that form.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Dec 9, 2021)

Empathy said:


> Kaidou’s dragon form is a big punching that went white-eyed when Momo bit him. *Zoro’s mid-end moves without aCoC didn’t accomplish anything/threaten Kaidou* any more than the dozens of other attacks he took from everybody else in that form.



If that was the case Luffy would still be in kaidous stomach, you can't low ball Zoro feats period.


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## BenMazino01 (Dec 9, 2021)

King is just as strong as Katakuri. King has better durability while Kata has better Haki..

As for Luffy, Early Wano Luffy is pretty strong. He only has Adv COO so it's gonna be quite hard for him to get through King's durability.. 

With Adv COO, Luffy can compete with almost any top tier however he's lacking in offensive. Something that can bypass top tier characters toughness, durability which is Adv COA and Adv COC..

Since it's Early Wano Luffy we're talking about, I'm gonna say King wins Extreme Diff..


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## zenit1234 (Dec 10, 2021)

King beats Adv CoA Luffy to


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## Luffygear4 (Dec 10, 2021)

Luffy could not defeat a top Yonko commander in a fair fight until his Udon training

Luffy in chapter 1010 is objectively a tier above Marco and King; as we see Luffy in base knock hybrid Kaido down causing internal damage and bleeding with CoC while Marco did no such thing to Big mom at the start of the raid

Luffy that got OS by base Kaido in Kuri isn’t much stronger than the Luffy that fought Katakuri, as his FS is still too inconsistent and his base isn’t very powerful


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## maupp (Dec 11, 2021)

So let me get this straight, Zoro who had an easier time to damage Kaido compared to Luffy on the RT(yes, that's right, Zoro didn't need to spam countless gatling of attacks just to inflict shallow wounds. Almost every single one of his attacks shown on panel on RT caused Kaido to wail and bleed) failed to damage King yet a version of Luffy that's like 2 power ups behind will damage King? 

And some people don't believe Luffy stans are the worst.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Luffygear4 (Dec 11, 2021)

maupp said:


> So let me get this straight, Zoro who had an easier time to damage Kaido compared to Luffy on the RT(yes, that's right, Zoro didn't need to spam countless gatling of attacks just to inflict shallow wounds. Almost every single one of his attacks shown on panel on RT caused Kaido to wail and bleed) failed to damage King yet a version of Luffy that's like 2 power ups behind will damage King?
> 
> And some people don't believe Luffy stans are the worst.


You seem to believe that internal damage isn’t real?
So basically because you can’t see the cut on the outside of Kaido that means Luffy’s haki doesn’t seep into and destroy Kaido from the inside as stated? I guess the Scabbards had an easier time damaging Kaido too

Lol, it’s laughable to think Zoro had an easier time damaging Luffy when the only meaningful attack he landed without help was with Asura


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## maupp (Dec 11, 2021)

Luffygear4 said:


> You seem to believe that internal damage isn’t real?
> So basically because you can’t see the cut on the outside of Kaido that means Luffy’s haki doesn’t seep into and destroy Kaido from the inside as stated? I guess the Scabbards had an easier time damaging Kaido too
> 
> Lol, it’s laughable to think Zoro had an easier time damaging Luffy when the only meaningful attack he landed without help was with Asura


Luffy himself admitted his attacks were too shallow, so I don't know why you want to dispute this. Luffy needed to get AdCoC to actually start putting in a real fight and not just shallow blows. 

And yes, Zoro did have an easier time damaging Kaido compared to Luffy. Luffy had spammed his entire G4 loads for him to then admit he only managed shallow attacks, meanwhile Zoro had Kaido running away from his attacks(something he didn't bother doing against Luffy). A mid end move of Zoro like tastumaki had Kaido wailing in pain while vomiting blood(and Luffy). 

Zoro with 30 broken bones, on his last leg left a permanent scar on Kaido, something that has only ever been done once. Zoro was simply the most lethal on that RT and there is simply no arguing that fact. Luffy needed AdCoC power up to start inflicting actual serious damage to Kaido. 

If Zoro whose attacks happened to have been the most lethal and potent on the RT(pre AdCoC Luffy) couldn't as much as scratch King, then Luffy(pre AdCoC), let alone 2 power ups behind isn't doing squat to King. He get bodied horribly. Stop with the stanning, Luffy gets sent back to Udon by King after he tries to take him on with his blunt force attacks which get swatted away like nothing.

Reactions: Like 4


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## maupp (Dec 11, 2021)

It's like people don't read the manga properly and are too caught up in their own agendas. If Oda has made a point of emphasizing that King has a special body and his durability is otherworldly to the point it would require Zoro to be an AdCoC user to fight him, then fecking pre Udon Luffy who doesn't even have AcoA at thhis point, isn't doing jack shit. 

AdCoC is needed here to damage King properly, that has been made abundantly clear by the sheer fact that he completely no sold Zoro's attacks, same attacks which gave mother fecking Kaido trouble. Come on people, levels to this.


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## Kroczilla (Dec 11, 2021)

maupp said:


> something he didn't bother doing against Luffy

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 11, 2021)

Luffygear4 said:


> Luffy that got OS by base Kaido in Kuri isn’t much stronger than the Luffy that fought Katakuri, as his FS is still too inconsistent and his base isn’t very powerful


Inconsistency in his future sight isn't the issue, Raimei Hakke is just too fast to dodge in base or in Boundman.


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## Lmao (Dec 11, 2021)

zenit1234 said:


> King beats Adv CoA Luffy to




Luffy with AdCoA claps King

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## zenit1234 (Dec 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Luffy with AdCoA claps King


Did no damage with those attacks and King has better durability than Kaido and can regenerate.
King claps Luffy before 1010.He can't even stay 10 min in G4 lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Dec 11, 2021)

Yeah, I wholeheartedly support King beating beginning of Wano Luffy. I didn't sign up for him winning against Post Udon Luffy. And no, he isn't beating Post Udon Luffy.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Lmao (Dec 11, 2021)

zenit1234 said:


> Did no damage with those attacks




Of course he was doing damage with those attacks

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## zenit1234 (Dec 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Of course he was doing damage with those attacks


So did Zoro yet King no sold Tatsumaki that cut Kaido and Shisonson.Makes you wonder why Zoro needed to learn to coat his swords in CoC against King.Adv CoA is not enough.

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Kroczilla (Dec 11, 2021)

zenit1234 said:


> So did Zoro yet King no sold Tatsumaki that cut Kaido and Shisonson.Makes you wonder why Zoro needed to learn to coat his swords in CoC against King.Adv CoA is not enough.


Zoro doesn't have Luffy's variant of Ad CoA. The type that wrecks shit from the inside

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## zenit1234 (Dec 11, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Zoro doesn't have Luffy's variant of Ad CoA. The type that wrecks shit from the inside


Like i said King not only has durability boost he has regeneration to so it's useless.
Luffy got ko by Apoo's small expolsion if he gets hit by King's he s done.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Lmao (Dec 11, 2021)

zenit1234 said:


> Makes you wonder why Zoro needed to learn to coat his swords in CoC against King.


Damn look at all this CoC needed for King

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## zenit1234 (Dec 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Damn look at all this CoC needed for King


After that he takes no damage    He just needs to activate his powers

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Dec 11, 2021)

zenit1234 said:


> Like i said King not only has durability boost he has regeneration to so it's useless.
> Luffy got ko by Apoo's small expolsion if he gets hit by King's he s done.


We don't know the extent of King's regen. And in any case as Marco has shown, regen can be exhausted with enough hits. 

Also come on man. Luffy took a beating from Katakuri for hours without going down. Surely we aren't going to use a low end showing against Apoo as the end all be all for his resilience.


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## Lmao (Dec 11, 2021)

zenit1234 said:


> After that he takes no damage


When Zoro cuts Kaido you go "look Zoro cut Kaido and made him bleed" when he cuts King's chest open with blood coming out "lol no dmg"

Nice double standards you got there friend

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Karma (Dec 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> When Zoro cuts Kaido you go "look Zoro cut Kaido and made him bleed" when he cuts King's chest open with blood coming out "lol no dmg"
> 
> Nice double standards you got there friend


Bro

King no sold a stronger attack by Zoro's own admission.

King also wasnt bleeding, also by Zoro own admission.

If u wanna use Zoro's surprise attack as an argument, then by all means Luffy getting knocked out by Apoo is just as valid.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Lmao (Dec 11, 2021)

Karma said:


> King also wasnt bleeding


There is literally a panel of King bleeding and you really out here trying to argue he wasn't


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## Karma (Dec 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> There is literally a panel of King bleeding and you really out here trying to argue he wasn't


Bro, i was very intentional with how i phrased my sentence

Reread my post

Zoro said he wasnt bleeding, as in the moment he said that.

Either argue that Onigiri is stronger than Lions song or that Zoro has no fucking idea what blood is. Strawmaning me will get u no where.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Luffygear4 (Dec 11, 2021)

maupp said:


> Luffy himself admitted his attacks were too shallow


If Luffy’s internal damage was too shallow to do damage then Zoro’s paper cuts are even more surface level
Kaido admits Luffy does damage, that shallow comment meant he could not win like that, not that it didn’t hurt

You seriously think only swords hurt, yet claim others have an agenda... it’s laughable
Even going so far as to claim Kaido hadn’t tried to avoid Luffy’s attacks which was flat out wrong

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Lmao (Dec 11, 2021)

Karma said:


> Either argue that Onigiri is stronger than Lions song or that Zoro has no fucking idea what blood is. Strawmaning me will get u no where.


Since I'm strawmaning explain to us what's that on King's chest after Oni Giri, we can both agree it's not ketchup.


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## Karma (Dec 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Since I'm strawmaning explain to us what's that on King's chest after Oni Giri, we can both agree it's not ketchup.


I literally never denied he was bleeding bro 


Just wut do u think this was referring to?


Karma said:


> If u wanna use Zoro's surprise attack as an argument


King was bleeding because he wasnt prepared for the attack.

So do u wanna continuing strawmaning me or do u have an actual argument?

Reactions: Like 2


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## MYJC (Dec 11, 2021)

Luffy extreme.


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## Lmao (Dec 11, 2021)

Karma said:


> I literally never denied he was bleeding bro


Let's recap: you quote me on a post I'm talking about Oni Giri drawing blood with _"King also wasnt bleeding, also by Zoro own admission" _then proceed to label it a surprise attack when King was looking in the direction the attack was coming from and there's even fodder commenting Zoro's back in action before he does the attack.

Are you sure you understand what a strawman is?

Reactions: Neutral 1 | Dislike 1


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## Karma (Dec 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Let's recap: you quote me on a post I'm talking about Oni Giri drawing blood with _"King also wasnt bleeding, also by Zoro own admission" _then proceed to label it a surprise attack when King was looking in the direction the attack was coming from and there's even fodder commenting Zoro's back in action before he does the attack.


My entire post was explaining y King bleeding Onigiri is a non factor

Is ur argument that Onigiri is stronger than Lions Song then?


Lmao said:


> Are you sure you understand what a strawman is?


U were trying to argue with me on a point i never made

Is this not a strawman?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## maupp (Dec 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Luffy with AdCoA claps King


LMAO(pun intented) . Luffy did the exact same pre Udon and still didn't do damage. Just a bunch of wasted  panels which produced nothing. 

Zoro whose attacks were actually semi threatening to Kaido got no sold by KIng yet you think a version of Luffy that was even less threatening than Zoro will do damage to King?  

Luffy would need AdCoC to take down King, non AdCoC attacks have shown and been proven to be fruitless against King.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## maupp (Dec 11, 2021)

Luffygear4 said:


> If Luffy’s internal damage was too shallow to do damage then Zoro’s paper cuts are even more surface level
> Kaido admits Luffy does damage, that shallow comment meant he could not win like that, not that it didn’t hurt
> 
> You seriously think only swords hurt, yet claim others have an agenda... it’s laughable
> Even going so far as to claim Kaido hadn’t tried to avoid Luffy’s attacks which was flat out wrong


I did forget the bit about Kaido avoiding Luffy's attacks after he ate some AdCoA attacks. I stand corrected on that. 

You might claim that Zoro's attacks were papercut but the truth is that Zoro had Kaido visually puke the most blood off a mid end attack of his(tatsumaki). Not to mention Zoro left that RT at the time having inflicted the biggest damage on Kaido(permanent scar). That same Zoro's attacks got completely negated and rendered useless by King and you think a version of Luffy that's 2 power ups behind his RT self is gonna cause King trouble. 

I mean are you guys even aware at how much overrating it has to take to believe Pre Udon Luffy has RT Zoro level AP let alone beyond him for it to bother King? 

Oda making a point to show how utterly useless and fruitless Zoro's proven attacks(via RT feats, feats beyond anything Pre Udon Luffy could ever hope or dream of accomplishing) were against King to the point of needing AdCoC(which was proven to be a ridiculous boost. Took Luffy from "shallow attacks against Kaido" to straight down contenting against him) doesn't alert you of the fact that non AdCoC Luffy let alone fecking Pre Udon Luffy doesn't have the means to hurt King at all. 

This argument is hilarious to me given the fact that it's obvious Pre Udon Luffy has nothing and I mean nothing to hurt King with. Nothing. This is the same Luffy who got 2 shoted by Apoo. But people argue anyways.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zooted (Dec 11, 2021)

Some people can't imagine AdCoA doing actual damage because it doesn't have visual effects.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 11, 2021)

zenit1234 said:


> Did no damage with those attacks and King has better durability than Kaido and can regenerate.
> King claps Luffy before 1010.He can't even stay 10 min in G4 lol.


What is the basis of saying that King is more durable than Kaido?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Oda Report (Dec 11, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Zoro doesn't have Luffy's variant of Ad CoA. The type that wrecks shit from the inside



Didn't do as much damage as zoros roof top attacks, leave out the nonsense, Luffy Needed Ad CoC to be a real threat to kaidou, Zoro needs ad CoC against someone even beyond kaidou when it comes to eating attacks and walking away not damaged.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Steven (Dec 11, 2021)

BoWano Ruffy was not YC1 level.Kata only lost via PIS,Plotarmor and random powerups(lol Hakibloom for the MC)

King wins


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## Chip Skylark (Dec 11, 2021)

Luffy would’ve lost. He was definitely YC1 tho. He just didn't have the AP to beat King until he learned Adv CoA.


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## Oda Report (Dec 11, 2021)

What is this Ad CoA > King nonsense. Zoro's rooftop attacks are Greater > AdCoA, Luffy couldn't even scratch kaidou.

Zoro needed Ad CoC to even stand a chance against a King whom has been toying with Zoro most of the time.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## maupp (Dec 12, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> What is the basis of saying that King is more durable than Kaido?


Zoro. 

We have a direct comparison of how each of Kaido and King fared against same attacks from Zoro. While Tatsumaki dwarfed Kaido own tornados and had him wailing in pain and vomiting blood, King completely no sold it with his wings. 

King then went on to further no sell stronger attacks from Zoro with no damages. Some people are speculating it's haxx and whatnot but the fact remains that King is fairing and handling Zoro's attacks far better then Kaido therefore he's shown and proven better durability (or it is haxx?) than Kaido which is why AdCoC has to also enter the fray to take him down just like Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## OG sama (Dec 12, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> What is this Ad CoA > King nonsense. Zoro's rooftop attacks are Greater > AdCoA, Luffy couldn't even scratch kaidou.
> 
> Zoro needed Ad CoC to even stand a chance against a King whom has been toying with Zoro most of the time.


Zoro doesn’t have internal destruction Haki that’s a level above the barrier Haki and it’s one that completely ignores durability.

Try and keep up.


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## maupp (Dec 12, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> What is this Ad CoA > King nonsense. Zoro's rooftop attacks are Greater > AdCoA, Luffy couldn't even scratch kaidou.
> 
> Zoro needed Ad CoC to even stand a chance against a King whom has been toying with Zoro most of the time.


Exactly. And this is why it has to be reiterated that Luffy stans are the worst when it comes to overrating a character's abilities. Any other fanbase write the same deluded nonsense they've written in this thread, they'd be accused of wanking. 

It's like they expect people to just accept Luffy with his AdCoA alone damages King simply because he's the MC. Same AdCoA which was just as useless if not more than Zoro on the RT against Kaido will somehow magically work on a guy that utterly negated Zoro completely. 

Mind you here we're talking about AdCoA Luffy here, the thread is about Pre Udon Luffy who doesn't even have AdCoA but his useless(pertaining to this match up) 10 minutes G4 blunt attacks.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Dec 12, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Zoro doesn’t have internal destruction Haki that’s a level above the barrier Haki and it’s one that completely ignores durability.
> 
> Try and keep up.



Dragon blaze says who needs AdCoA, Kaidou certainly wasn't afraid of any of Luffy's AD COA attacks until Ad CoC.   

Throw away part 1 attacks like Asura that are 2 years old says you are late to the who can damage kaidou show.


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## OG sama (Dec 12, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> Dragon blaze says who needs AdCoA, Kaidou certainly wasn't afraid of any of Luffy's AD COA attacks until Ad CoC.
> 
> Throw away part 1 attacks like Asura that are 2 years old says you are late to the who can damage kaidou show.


Dragon blaze is most likely an AdvCoC attack just like Ashura, either way he put more power into dragon blaze than any of his other attacks.

Luffy was wailing on Dragon Kaido and had BM shook with Kong gatling, not to mention his strongest attack KKG was never used… and those attacks were never powered up by AdvCoC, imagine them now….

You think Zoro did more on the roof but you couldn’t be anymore wrong, Luffy held back his best shit and still looked just as impressive if not more.

Either way, it’s easy to look good against someone just standing there trying to tank hits, and Zoro and Luffy don’t fight the same, a person fighting with fist isn’t going to do the same type of damage as someone fighting with swords.


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## Corax (Dec 12, 2021)

aCoA Luffy can't win it either. It is heavily implied that aCoC (or probably awakening since Oda equals these power ups) is needed to beat King. aCoA is just a weaker version of aCoC. Plus Luffy has no long range attacks and would need G4 to catch King (and G4 has a short time limit,far shorter than even Marco's regen limit).

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Quipchaque (Dec 12, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> BoWano Ruffy was not YC1 level.Kata only lost via PIS,Plotarmor and random powerups(lol Hakibloom for the MC)
> 
> King wins



Why would you bring up haki bloom? Fact is that he has that haki. It wasn't just a one time thing so how would that put Luffy lower?


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## Lmao (Dec 12, 2021)

Nova said:


> Some people can't imagine AdCoA doing actual damage because it doesn't have visual effects.


Even Kaido himself admits Luffy's attacks are doing damage yet people out here really trying to argue otherwise

OL knows better than Oda  



Karma said:


> My entire post was explaining y King bleeding Onigiri is a non factor


You'd have a point if Onigiri was the only instance, King has also bled from Marco's knee attack. Is that also a non factor? 



maupp said:


> Luffy did the exact same pre Udon and still didn't do damage. Just a bunch of wasted  panels which produced nothing.


Luffy's first G3 attack on the rooftop did damage but his barrage of G4 (which is a stronger gear mode) attacks didn't, take a moment and read what you are writing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## fenaker (Dec 12, 2021)

maupp said:


> I did forget the bit about Kaido avoiding Luffy's attacks after he ate some AdCoA attacks. I stand corrected on that.
> 
> You might claim that Zoro's attacks were papercut but the truth is that Zoro had Kaido visually puke the most blood off a mid end attack of his(tatsumaki). Not to mention Zoro left that RT at the time having inflicted the biggest damage on Kaido(permanent scar). That same Zoro's attacks got completely negated and rendered useless by King and you think a version of Luffy that's 2 power ups behind his RT self is gonna cause King trouble.
> 
> ...


mf talks about Internal damage didn't Tatsumaki damage Kaido's internally that's why he vomited Luffy out and the same tatsumaki didn't do shit to King Luffy tards are reading two pieces 

King low diffs Early wano Luffy who got his ass clubbed By Drunk Base Kaido

King mid diffs Adv CoA Luffy whose attacks did a shallow damage whilst King's active durability is above that shit

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 12, 2021)

Rt Luffy was stronger than rooftop zoro you’d think king would’ve put you zoro wankers in your place but you people have no shame.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 2


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## Karma (Dec 12, 2021)

Lmao said:


> You'd have a point if Onigiri was the only instance, King has also bled from Marco's knee attack. Is that also a non factor?


U keep side stepping my question and Marcos knee attack only exacerbates it

R u claiming Marcos unnamed generic knee sttack is stronger than lions song then?


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## Lmao (Dec 12, 2021)

Karma said:


> R u claiming Marcos unnamed generic knee sttack is stronger than lions song then?


One instance of King using whatever gimmick he is using against Lion's song doesn't erase the previous attacks that cut and damaged him, why do you keep pretending it does?


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## maupp (Dec 12, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Rt Luffy was stronger than rooftop zoro you’d think king would’ve put you zoro wankers in your place but you people have no shame.


A Luffy stan in a thread where Luffy is wildly being overrated(Pre Udon Luffy beating King  ) is claiming others have no shame.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Lmao (Dec 12, 2021)

maupp said:


> A Luffy stan in a thread where Luffy is wildly being overrated(Pre Udon Luffy beating King  ) is claiming others have no shame.


Luffy already fought someone comparable to King an arc ago but sure keep telling yourself he can't keep up with King at all.

Out of curiosity, what difficulty does King beat Luffy with?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## maupp (Dec 12, 2021)

Lmao said:


> One instance of King using whatever gimmick he is using against Lion's song doesn't erase the previous attacks that cut and damaged him, why do you keep pretending it does?


What makes Kaido durable? His actual durability plus his regen factor to shallow damages(to him). Similarly with King, what makes his durability otherworldly is the combination of his actual durability plus his regen/healing/haxx or whatever it is factor. 

Kaido was made to bleed as well yet he eventually ended up unscathed. Panels of King being visually cut or bleeding matter not due to the fact he ends up looking unscathed the very next panel he shows up. 

At the end of the day people could point at panels of both Kaido and King visually bleeding but it never mattered since those cuts disappeared due to them being shallow or not good enough to inflict permanent damages or cuts on them. 

Difference between King and Kaido is that while they both no sold Zoro attacks for the most part(except Ashura in Kaido's case but there are some speculations that Ashura is AdCoC), King took it a step further than Kaido and utterly no sold Zoro completely and had far less trouble with his attacks compared to Kaido.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## maupp (Dec 12, 2021)

Lmao said:


> *Luffy already fought someone comparable to King* an arc ago but sure keep telling yourself he can't keep up with King at all.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what difficulty does King beat Luffy with?


Why? Because they're both Yonkou commanders? 

I think you're under the impression that everyone abide by this arbitrary OL scaling where all YCs are on the same level. Unlike OL headcannons I go by actual manga feats.

While we're at it should we also scale all Shishibukai the same? 

I would also like to ask you a question. How does Pre Udon Luffy hurt King? Keep in mind this version doesn't even have AdCoA and only has 10 minutes in his only competent form at that point

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Karma (Dec 12, 2021)

Lmao said:


> One instance of King using whatever gimmick he is using against Lion's song doesn't erase the previous attacks that cut and damaged him, why do you keep pretending it does?


1 instance?

Literally everything after Onigiri has had King going all out, no selling Zoro attacks.

All uve proven is that non serious King is easier to make bleed. Uve not posted a single panel of him bleeding after Zoro broke his mask.

Unless ur arguement is that King gonna fuck arnd the whole fight bringing up these instances of him bleeding is pointless, and betting on serious King bleeding to some scrub lvl attacks in the future is a bad bet considering Zoros using Co C to fight

Reactions: Like 1


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## Karma (Dec 12, 2021)

This is like comparing Apoo's sound attack to Ragnarok and pretending the scenarios r the same.

"Well the sound attack was enough to knock him out!!!"

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 12, 2021)

bil02 said:


> The problem with this version of Luffy is that he will be needing G4 immediately to stand any kind of chance.
> Fs can help Luffy see what is about to come but no guarantee he reacts in time to dodge.
> Raid Luffy considered Tankyudon as a very dangerous attack so even Start of Wano Luffy is getting pressured by that attack too.
> 
> ...


If zoro can react and dodge, luffy with futuresight does it much better even in base


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## OG sama (Dec 12, 2021)

Corax said:


> aCoA Luffy can't win it either. It is heavily implied that aCoC (or probably awakening since Oda equals these power ups) is needed to beat King. aCoA is just a weaker version of aCoC. Plus Luffy has no long range attacks and would need G4 to catch King (and G4 has a short time limit,far shorter than even Marco's regen limit).


If King can only be beaten by AdvCoC users then that’s a big problem and is a line I doubt Oda is ready to cross for this particular YC1 imo.

There’s definitely some gimmick to his durability that will allow him to be beaten in other ways. No way durability bypassing attacks like CoA 3.0 should be useless against King. If that’s the case then even Top Tiers who don’t have CoC wouldn’t be able to beat him and we should all know Oda isn’t going to make King that broken.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Corax (Dec 12, 2021)

OG sama said:


> If King can only be beaten by AdvCoC users then that’s a big problem and is a line I doubt Oda is ready to cross for this particular YC1 imo.
> 
> There’s definitely some gimmick to his durability that will allow him to be beaten in other ways. No way durability bypassing attacks like CoA 3.0 should be useless against King. If that’s the case then even Top Tiers who don’t have CoC wouldn’t be able to beat him and we should all know Oda isn’t going to make King that broken.


I don't think it is a big problem. All top dogs have either aCoC (even Yamato has it) or awakening (similar grade power up going by BM vs Law/Kidd). So all top dogs can beat King without any serious troubles. Bar is too high anyway. Last war anyone>>>Wano YC1>>>WCI YC1.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 12, 2021)

maupp said:


> A Luffy stan in a thread where Luffy is wildly being overrated(Pre Udon Luffy beating King  ) is claiming others have no shame.


Go look at my vote dumb ass. Or any of my comments in the thread. Most likely it’s pre acoc rt Luff>=king> Rt zoro>Beginning of wano Luffy


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## Oda Report (Dec 12, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Dragon blaze is most likely an AdvCoC attack just like Ashura, either way he put more power into dragon blaze than any of his other attacks.





Don't know bout that guess work, however Zoro's dragon dragon twister is also apart of the attacks  which is what out classes Luffy's AdCoA.



OG sama said:


> Luffy was wailing on Dragon Kaido and had BM shook with Kong gatling, not to mention his strongest attack KKG was never used… and those attacks were never powered up by AdvCoC, imagine them now….



Guess work, lets stick to what happened, None of Luffy's attacks until Ad CoC where effective. 
Luffy's ADCoA didn't do jack compared to Zoro making 2 yonkou afriad to even hope of tanking the attack.





OG sama said:


> You think Zoro did more on the roof but you couldn’t be anymore wrong, Luffy held back his best shit and still looked just as impressive if not more.



Zoro didn't get a chance to show off his full arsenal, Zoro was put down for taking one for the entire team, and still saved Luffy a 3rd time.

Zoro was MVP on da Roof, he saved Luffy 3 times, no question.


OG sama said:


> Either way, it’s easy to look good against someone just standing there trying to tank hits, and Zoro and Luffy don’t fight the same, a person fighting with fist isn’t going to do the same type of damage as someone fighting with swords.



Thats the thing Zoro changed that entire dynamic about kaidou and Mom with dragon blaze. . .

Stop with that nonsense, if Luffy was doing some serious damage it would have been highlighted. . . guess what it wasn't until Luffy bloomed into Ad.CoC.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Dec 12, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> Don't know bout that guess work, however Zoro's dragon dragon twister is also apart of the attacks  which is what out classes Luffy's AdCoA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is some tier specialist ass shit, imagine saying something that’s a fact is guess work. Luffy did not use his best shit before the CoC upgrade, Zoros ultimate move was used and didn’t even knock Kaido off his feet. It gave him a scar that he just shrugged off and instantly stopped caring about.

Luffy was doing plenty of damage on the roof and even BM was looking shocked, I’m not sure what you are reading but it sure isn’t One Piece.

You think stalling an attack for a split second is impressive? Lol

This sounds like serious Zoro wank for sure, I’m convinced the only time you pay attention to anything in this story is when Zoro is doing something, it’s no wonder your argument is this bad.


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## maupp (Dec 12, 2021)

By the way we've been so caught up in Luffy's end results in his fights that we forgot that this is the battledome and he doesn't have his plot armor which account for a vast part of his power during all his wins with G4 since its inception.

All these talks of WCI Luffy and no mention of the fact that he'd had to have help in all his G4 fights starting with Doflamingo. All his initial 10 minutes runs of G4 weren't actually enough to defeat any of Mingo, Cracker and Katakuri, and heavy outside interference and plot had to be involved to ensure his victories.

So with that in mind, without plot armor, outside interference, do people honestly believe WCI Luffy has what it takes to take down King? Are people willing, with a straight face to actually claim that Luffy can defeat King in his 10 minutes of G4? Same 10 minutes which weren't enough to take down any of DD, Cracker or Katakuri, would it be enough to take down an opponent far durable than any of them.

Forget the fact that he doesn't even have AdCoA or any means to actually hurt King, let's put that aside for a second. Luffy's only competent form in this fight(G4) only last 10 minutes, do some of you lots truly believe he could actually pull off a victory against King in that short time frame, baring in mind that he HAS LITERALLY NEVER managed to defeat anyone relevant(DD, Cracker, Katakuri) in that timeframe of 10 minutes. Levels to this.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Oda Report (Dec 12, 2021)

OG sama said:


> This is some tier specialist ass shit,



Anything that disagrees with your stance seems to be labeled that. 



OG sama said:


> imagine saying something that’s a fact is guess work.



Luffy wasn't doing the saving, his right hand was, so yeah guess work away if you think Luffy deserves the MVP of the Rooftop level combatants. 



OG sama said:


> Luffy did not use his best shit before the CoC upgrade, Zoros ultimate move was used and didn’t even knock Kaido off his feet. It gave him a scar that he just shrugged off and instantly stopped caring about.



1st off Asura isn't Zoros ultimate move. 
2nd Zoro better not have knocked over kaidou with broken bones after getting wrecked by a duo Yonkou combination in HAKKKIII!!!!
3rd




OG sama said:


> Luffy was doing plenty of damage on the roof and even BM was looking shocked, I’m not sure what you are reading but it sure isn’t One Piece.



I was just more impressed with Zoro showcasing how much of a Big sister Big Mom is to her Little Brother Kaidou, by yelling out in fear for her little brother, to avoid the dragon blaze attack from the right hand of the future Pirate king, Zoro.

Yeah this is One Piece alright. 


OG sama said:


> You think stalling an attack for a split second is impressive? Lol



The Rooftop 5 thought so. 

The ones Zoro saved. 


OG sama said:


> This sounds like serious Zoro wank for sure, I’m convinced the only time you pay attention to anything in this story is when Zoro is doing something, it’s no wonder your argument is this bad.



My post history says Other wise. go lie again. 

I wont engage in petty and small discussion, either feed me another shit argument that I can dismantle or leave me alone.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## maupp (Dec 13, 2021)

Do people factor Plot power in these match ups because it's very important to make a distinction between plot fueled Luffy and battledome Luffy if his plot armor is removed. With no Plot armor WCI Luffy get clapped by Katakuri let alone stronger opponents.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Lmao (Dec 13, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> 1st off Asura isn't Zoros ultimate move.


Yes it is

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Dec 13, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Yes it is



Context you are forgetting context, Zoro at his limit with broken bones after getting wrecked by a Yonkou combination attack was still a threat. Asura isn't his strongest attack or ultimate attack. Asura is a 2 year old attack, so is dragon blaze. Dragon blaze > Asura with broken bones. Lion song > Asura with broken bones.

and Zoro was still able to scar kaidou, that's smut on kaidou's resume forget that he didn't knock over kaidou, Zoro left his handicap sticker on kaidous chest, something that NO one was able to do since Oden.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Lmao (Dec 13, 2021)

He literally says it is his best move

Just the simple fact one is a CoC attack while the rest are not tells you everything you need to know, you just refuse to accept it because it goes against your headcanon.


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## Oda Report (Dec 13, 2021)

Lmao said:


> He literally says it is his best move



Ignoring context still.



Lmao said:


> Just the simple fact one is a CoC attack while the rest are not tells you everything you need to know, you just refuse to accept it because it goes against your headcanon.



Zoro being on his last leg with broken bones is head cannon Now?

Zoro with broken bones asura > A dragon blaze healthy Zoro attack now?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 15, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> Context you are forgetting context, Zoro at his limit with broken bones after getting wrecked by a Yonkou combination attack was still a threat. Asura isn't his strongest attack or ultimate attack. Asura is a 2 year old attack, so is dragon blaze. Dragon blaze > Asura with broken bones. Lion song > Asura with broken bones.
> 
> and Zoro was still able to scar kaidou, that's smut on kaidou's resume forget that he didn't knock over kaidou, Zoro left his handicap sticker on kaidous chest, something that NO one was able to do since Oden.


No.

Asura, is the activator for his Kyutoryu. It's a mode shift like Sanji activating Diable/Ifrit Jambe and Luffy turning on a Gear. 

One Mist Silver was the attack he used on Kaku. Demonic Nine Flashes is what he used against the Pacifista.

Post skip, Asura: Blades Drawn Dead Man's Game is his current strongest displayed move. If Dragon Blaze was a stronger technique he would've used that instead of Dead man's Game in his attempt to knock down Kaido. That Dragon Blaze may have cut Kaido, it may not have, it didn't do anything but make Linlin pee a little for Kaido, get dodged, and chop off a giant horn. That output is just as likely the result of Enma overcharging, and that same circumstance would apply to just about any technique Zoro does with the sword including Dead Man's Game.

Now you say that Zoro was completely at his limit when he scarred Kaido. Desperation attacks however tend to be more powerful not less. Look at Luffy's final Jet Gatling against Lucci, or Zoro's Shishi Sonson against Das Bones. If Zoro could've have done better than that he would've mentioned he couldn't bring his full strength to the attack. Zoro putting Haoshoku Haki into the attack means that he was pushing beyond his physical and Haki limits at that point.

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


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## Ren. (Dec 15, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> No.
> 
> Asura, is the activator for his Kyutoryu. It's a mode shift like Sanji activating Diable/Ifrit Jambe and Luffy turning on a Gear.
> 
> ...


Why do you guys take this one serious?

It is simple, he doesn't want to get it, move on.

Luffy had a hole into his stomach when he defeated Crocodile, that move at the end was his strongest by far, he was at low town level AP wise,  a hole in his stomach, Zoro in Wano had a hole in his shoulder and was out vs Killer.

Don't validate that one, we are giving him credit for nothing.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Oda Report (Dec 15, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> No.
> 
> Asura, is the activator for his Kyutoryu. It's a mode shift like Sanji activating Diable/Ifrit Jambe and Luffy turning on a Gear.
> 
> ...



you have earned my thanks, I never revisited Asura so i will take it for what it is. I can agree with this at this stage in the game, still the One Piece yellow data books highlights Asura as nothing but an illusion. I would like more clarification on the subject however I can agree with your Pov.

however......



Amatérasu’s Son said:


> That Dragon Blaze may have cut Kaido, it may not have, it didn't do anything but make Linlin pee a little for Kaido, get dodged, and chop off a giant horn. That output is just as likely the result of Enma overcharging, and that same circumstance would apply to just about any technique Zoro does with the sword including Dead Man's Game.


Zoro at his limits with broken bones unleashed Dead man game wasn't his strongest anything not in that condition. Dragon blaze is an attack that even the natural monster in big mom (who knows kaidou very well) didn't want kaidou to even play with that attack but to avoid it.  Zoro couldn't muster the power for another dragon blaze not in the condition after a yonkou combination attack to save the team, is why Zoro didn't go for another.




Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Now you say that Zoro was completely at his limit when he scarred Kaido. Desperation attacks however tend to be more powerful not less.



The fact kaidou didn't need to dodge dead mans game is enough for me to see dragon blaze as a lot more lethal.  



Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Look at Luffy's final Jet Gatling against Lucci, or Zoro's Shishi Sonson against Das Bones.



Two different situations.

Breath of all things was involved to take out daz bones while Luffy just pulls a win out of his ass by yelling louder and punching more.

I know it hurts @Ren.



Amatérasu’s Son said:


> If Zoro could've have done better than that he would've mentioned he couldn't bring his full strength to the attack. Zoro putting Haoshoku Haki into the attack means that he was pushing beyond his physical and Haki limits at that point.



or ever time Zoro damaged kaidou Haoshoku haki was involved.




Ren. said:


> Why do you guys take this one serious?
> 
> It is simple, he doesn't want to get it, move on.
> 
> ...



Man you are a odd ball, your reaction doesn't even match yo post following.

OL isn't a monolith,

Im on ya ignore list.....act like it at least.

Now let us grown ups speak and go play with ya Luffy ball.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 16, 2021)

Does anyone know how to turn off the snow?


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## Luffy (Dec 16, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Does anyone know how to turn off the snow?


Preferences>Under Content options>Disable Holiday Styling

Reactions: Informative 3


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 16, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Does anyone know how to turn off the snow?


move to africa

Reactions: Funny 2


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## convict (Dec 16, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Luffy with AdCoA claps King



That did a whole bunch of nothing to Kaido and it won't do more than superficial damage to King. You need a superior form of Haki to really hurt King as 1033 showed.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Disagree 1


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## Ren. (Dec 16, 2021)

convict said:


> That did a whole bunch of nothing to Kaido and it won't do more than superficial damage to King. You need a superior form of Haki to really hurt King as 1033 showed.


Kaido and King are not the same tier.

Kaido took Asura like a chump.

And 10s of AdvCOC hits even with Snakeman.

And that is on top of 15 high tiers.

ADv COA aka 3.0 Gatling fucks King.

I would have a discussion with you but I remembered that every time Luffy gets a PU Zoro is close for you and when Zoro got Adv COC he is also back close to Luffy  

And also you said several times let's discuss how Zoro is stronger ... 


3.0 Is inflecting internal damage, how is King even negating that with what he did vs Zoro?

I mean I understand preferences but you seam to never doubt your preference once ... either way it is what it is.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## Kroczilla (Dec 16, 2021)

There's an argument to be made that King's durability could be even with Kaido's if not just above. Which is why he gets the clear W over early Wano/pre Udon Luffy. 

However there are two reasons why this wouldn't be the case against AdCoA Luffy. The first is pretty obvious. Luffy's AdCoA deals internal damage, something King doesn't really have any track records against unlike Kaido who tanked two of such attacks (Gamma Knife and Sonic scythe) back to back with no issues (and in his most vulnerable form no less). 

This brings us to the second reason which is the difference between Durability (i.e. the ability to resist damage) and Damage-soak/Endurance (the ability to keep on trucking despite receiving damage). King has a lot of the former, but in terms of the latter, he doesn't even come close to Kaido who at one point was actually forced to doged Luffy's AdCoA attacks (talking about G2 Luffy here). There is absolutely no way those attacks don't hurt King significantly, and due to him lacking Kaido's endurance/recovery stats, he is going to go down eventually.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Ren. (Dec 16, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> There's an argument to be made that King's durability could be even with Kaido's if not just above. Which is why he gets the clear W over early Wano/pre Udon Luffy.
> 
> However there are two reasons why this wouldn't be the case against AdCoA Luffy. The first is pretty obvious. Luffy's AdCoA deals internal damage, something King doesn't really have any track records against unlike Kaido who tanked two of such attacks (Gamma Knife and Sonic scythe) back to back with no issues (and in his most vulnerable form no less).
> 
> This brings us to the second reason which is the difference between Durability (i.e. the ability to resist damage) and Damage-soak/Endurance (the ability to keep on trucking despite receiving damage). King has a lot of the former, but in terms of the latter, he doesn't even come close to Kaido who at one point was actually forced to doged Luffy's AdCoA attacks (talking about G2 Luffy here). There is absolutely no way those attacks don't hurt King significantly, and due to him lacking Kaido's endurance/recovery stats, he is going to go down eventually.


Kaido endures attacks: Asura, Internal COA Adv COC G4 etc.

King mitigates damage.

Snakeman with ADv COA will ruin King's day, he is not Kaido, he can't do a 15 high tiers back to back.

He is not BM that you need Awakenings and internal damage to even draw blood.


Durability is quite simple: BM and after Kaido.
Endurance is simple Kaido and I am sure BM as she was walking and splitting the earth after Kaido.


This is sad,  before it was King is not on Zoro's pay grade so he will be demolished now we are saying King is close to Kaido or that his durability is close to his  LOL, next he will be above BM's that need Law' awakening to even bleed.

And Convict you even had the balls to say that 2 attacks from Zoro can defeat Kaido   , WB could not put Akainu in 2 attacks with his DF,  and now Zoro can do that with 2 attacks ... dude chill with that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## TheNirou (Dec 17, 2021)

With the recent chapter King would stomp Luffy even harder... I'm pretty sure he can take both WCI Luffy and Katakuri by himself. 

Chapter 1035 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 King has AdCoC and can use Magma...

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 2


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 17, 2021)

V said:


> Preferences>Under Content options>Disable Holiday Styling


Thanks, you're an ace.


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## Oda Report (Dec 17, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Luffy with AdCoA claps King



Nah,

Not happening, not with that level of haki.


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## Lmao (Dec 17, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> Nah,
> 
> Not happening, not with that level of haki.


That same level of Haki had Kaido seeing afterimages of Roger and Primebeard but you do you bro.


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## Oda Report (Dec 17, 2021)

Lmao said:


> That same level of Haki had Kaido seeing afterimages of Roger and Primebeard but you do you bro.



If thats how things played out the arc would be over. Way over.

The AdCoC boost for luffy and Zoro would be over kill and wouldn't have such impact.

If Adcoa was the answer....it wasn't.


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## Sherlōck (Dec 17, 2021)

I am changing my previous stance after recent chapter.

Early Wano Luffy Vs King can go either way extreme difficulty.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Kroczilla (Dec 17, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> I am changing my previous stance after recent chapter.
> 
> Early Wano Luffy Vs King can go either way extreme difficulty.


The plot thickens


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 27, 2021)

convict said:


> That did a whole bunch of nothing to Kaido and it won't do more than superficial damage to King. You need a superior form of Haki to really hurt King as 1033 showed.


Didn't Luffy tank ACoC? You are saying Marco can't hurt Luffy? He needs superior form of haki to hurt Luffy? 


Corax said:


> aCoA Luffy can't win it either. It is heavily implied that aCoC (or probably awakening since Oda equals these power ups) is needed to beat King. aCoA is just a weaker version of aCoC. Plus Luffy has no long range attacks and would need G4 to catch King (and G4 has a short time limit,far shorter than even Marco's regen limit).


Luffy had been tanking ACoC before chapter 1035. So Marco can't hurt Luffy?  


Oda Report said:


> What is this Ad CoA > King nonsense. Zoro's rooftop attacks are Greater > AdCoA, Luffy couldn't even scratch kaidou.
> 
> Zoro needed Ad CoC to even stand a chance against a King whom has been toying with Zoro most of the time.


Sure. Just like King hasn't shown ap comparable with ACoC Kaido that Luffy had been tanking before chapter 1035 


maupp said:


> Exactly. And this is why it has to be reiterated that Luffy stans are the worst when it comes to overrating a character's abilities. Any other fanbase write the same deluded nonsense they've written in this thread, they'd be accused of wanking.
> 
> It's like they expect people to just accept Luffy with his AdCoA alone damages King simply because he's the MC. Same AdCoA which was just as useless if not more than Zoro on the RT against Kaido will somehow magically work on a guy that utterly negated Zoro completely.
> 
> Mind you here we're talking about AdCoA Luffy here, the thread is about Pre Udon Luffy who doesn't even have AdCoA but his useless(pertaining to this match up) 10 minutes G4 blunt attacks.


Luffy had been tanking adv CoC from Kaido. King doesn't have ap comparable with ACoC Kaido to damage Luffy.


TheNirou said:


> King stomps this version of Luffy with mid diff.
> 
> King can just outlast G4's times up and then one shots base Luffy, it's simple as that. Pre Udon Luffy can't even damage him lmao, King is a wild beat, he isn't pathetic like Katakuri.


Luffy had been tanking ACoC from Kaido before chapter 1035. King without his fire only tanked 1 ACoC attack and the second ACoC attack destroyed him. It's not Katakuri who is pathetic. It's Luffy's durability which is high can tank multiple ACoC from Kaido unlike pathetic King 


zenit1234 said:


> Did no damage with those attacks and King has better durability than Kaido and can regenerate.
> King claps Luffy before 1010.He can't even stay 10 min in G4 lol.


It's the opposite. How will King even damage Luffy at this point since King has never shown ACoC comparable with Kaido that Luffy tanked before chapter 1035


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## Oda Report (Dec 27, 2021)

Traveling Swordsman said:


> Luffy had been tanking adv CoC from Kaido. King doesn't have ap comparable with ACoC Kaido to damage Luffy.



He actually does not that it matters since this is the early version of Luffy who can't hurt king without adcoc.


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 27, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> He actually does not that it matters since this is the early version of Luffy who can't hurt king without adcoc.


King also can't hurt Luffy who had been tanking advanced CoC before chapter 1035. Luffy didn't use any protection though. There is no huge gap in durability. King can't even hurt WCI Luffy


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## Oda Report (Dec 27, 2021)

Traveling Swordsman said:


> King also can't hurt Luffy who had been tanking advanced CoC before chapter 1035. Luffy didn't use any protection though. There is no huge gap in durability. King can't even hurt WCI Luffy



you are crazy.

King AP out classed Zoro's AP after he was able to damage kaidou.


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 27, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> you are crazy.
> 
> King AP out classed Zoro's AP after he was able to damage kaidou.


What ap? King doesn't have ACoC comparable with ACoC Kaido. King needs ap comparable with ACoC Kaido to damage WCI Luffy.

King ap feat is disappointing.

His flying slash got tanked by Queen.
Glass jaw Zoro who fainted to non haki Killer tanked his Tempura Udon.
His kick can't send Sanji flying something Page One did in 1 casual swipe.


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## Bloody Raiu (Dec 28, 2021)

From my standpoint, these King vs Katakuri/Zoro/WCI Luffy/Sanji debates largely rest on how much significance you put on the Hybrid Kaido vs Asura Zoro exchange.

Putting aside all the circumstantial factors surrounding the Kaido/BM vs RT5 fight (blindsiding, gang ups etc) i think its safe to say that Zoro managing to put a permanent scar on Hybrid Form Kaido (who was in the process of delivering an attack at the same time) with Hell Hakkei while being as depleted as he was easily outshines any of Luffys pre ch1010 feats. 

That being said, there are some uncertainties regarding how that scene impacts the above matchups. Namely whether Zoro can sustain the level of speed he displayed there, to what extent Zoro's energy levels and stats were replenished in ch1023 and whether Zoro was fighting at a similar level of intensity and speed against King from ch1023 onwards.

Obviously if we take the stance that puts Zoro in the most favorable light and assume that he was operating at the very least close to the same level of speed as he was when he tagged Kaido throughout his battle with King then the All star should be able to best Katakuri and WCI- Early Wano Luffy comfortably. Notwithstanding King's toughness and strength showings we can scale his speed to the level of Zoro and that factor alone makes this pretty easy to call, although once again thats assuming some things we dont have definitive evidence for.

All things considered, id definitely put my chips on King to get the job done against Luffy as he was in his first fight with Kaido (and by extension Katakuri), but i dont think we have the information to say how exactly how he stacks up to those 2 in some of the more important areas like combat speed and the diff could range anywhere from mid to high


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