# Hashirama Vs Mu & Onoki



## Trojan (May 9, 2013)

Location: Gaara vs Kimmimaro
Restrictions: SM. 
Distance: 60 Meters
Knowledge: Manga. 
State of Mind: IC


scenario #2 Hashi can use SM. 

and add the 3rd Raikage, Minato and Tsunade.

Edit:- Onoki in his prime, so he has some more stamina, and no pain in his back. lol


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## Rocky (May 9, 2013)

Hashirama stomps casually just as Madara stomped casually.

In scenario 2, Hashirama stomps casually because you gave him Sage Mode and didn't put Madara with the Kyuubi on the other team.


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## Trojan (May 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama stomps casually just as Madara stomped casually.
> 
> In scenario 2, Hashirama stomps casually because you gave him Sage Mode and didn't put Madara with the Kyuubi on the other team.



Oh boy, I am sure I will ask "by what" to everyone now, so they may speak. 

1- Stomp by what? 
Onoki already defeated Hashi's second strongest jutsu by himself with one attack, and he even defeated
all the clones. What Hashi can do to them? Saing Hashi wins because Madara won is just
too stupid. 

Actually can Hashi even fight them while flying? or can he see Mu? 

2-  
Oh really? and what does he have against the Jinton users? 
his Buddha? Minato's S/T barrier should be enough, or simple he can teleport them
to the other side or at the very least teleprt Onoki and this one can use his jutsu
Earth Release: Added-Weight Rock Technique
Thus the Buddha cannot move any more.


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## Bonly (May 9, 2013)

Scenario one goes to team Jinton. Once Muu goes invisible Hashi has no way of finding him and since Hashi hasn't been hinted at being a Sensor, he won't see the attack from being coming.

Scenario two goes the same way unless Hashi goes into SM right off the which would likely allow Hashi to sense Muu when he pops up to attack but thats unlikely to happen.


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## Trojan (May 9, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Scenario one goes to team Jinton. Once Muu goes invisible Hashi has no way of finding him and since Hashi hasn't been hinted at being a Sensor, he won't see the attack from being coming.
> 
> Scenario two goes the same way unless Hashi goes into SM right off the which would likely allow Hashi to sense Muu when he pops up to attack but thats unlikely to happen.



Thank you, you gave me hope in humanity. 

BTY no one can sense Mu when he goes invisible. 


> Hashi to sense Muu when he pops up to attack but thats unlikely to happen.



I don't even remember that Hashi showed any sensing ability!


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## CoockiesAndMilf (May 9, 2013)

*Wouldn't perfect SM grant Hashirama sensing?*


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## Ersa (May 9, 2013)

Hashirama stomps the two so bad Onoki never finds himself again.

So when did putting a top tier against two mid tiers make a good match?


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## Rocky (May 9, 2013)

There is no debate to he had. Hashirama bends these two over. 

The Gokage came off as academy noobs against Madara, who without the Kyuubi is inferior big time to Shodai.


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## Kai (May 9, 2013)

Hashirama is a sensor, but it seems Muu can only be sensed through physical contact (sensor sand, detection barrier, physical touch) as he can completely erase his chakra signature.

As for Onoki's large scale Jinton, Hashirama can use the appropriate number of Rashomon gates or Mokuton: Hobi no Jutsu to mitigate or redirect that powerful offense. Onoki has one of the greatest endurance feats in the manga, but his stamina is not even up for comparison against Hashirama. I see Onoki collapsing before Hashirama adopts an all out mentality.


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## Dominus (May 9, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *Wouldn't perfect SM grant Hashirama sensing?*



When Mū uses the Meisaigakure no Jutsu his chakra is undetectable.


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## DaVizWiz (May 9, 2013)

Scenario 1: Invisibility solos.

Scenario 2: 





> and add the 3rd Raikage, Minato and Tsunade.


Minato tags Muu- well, you know the rest. 

Rocky's Scenario: Hashirama is of a higher tier caliber, thus he could never die to two kage-level, flying, invisible, molecular re-arranging, battle-hardened geniuses he's never seen canonically in the manga.


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## Rocky (May 9, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Rocky's Scenario: Hashirama is of a higher tier caliber, thus he could never die to two kage-level, flying, invisible, molecular re-arranging, battle-hardened geniuses he's never seen canonically in the manga.




Correct, as Madara showed us.


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## ueharakk (May 9, 2013)

Scenario 1) 5 giant wood hands gg.  Their jinton can't destroy 2 wood hands that are large enough to grab 100% Kurama before the hands crush them especially considering how quickly the wood hands erupt from the ground (fast enough to catch a PS sword swing).

Scenario 2) 
not sure yet, will look at more responses.  Matchups with Tobi or Minato always get really tricky.


Also Torjan, in pretty much all of our debates, your bread and butter has been pulling A>B>C logic to show that character A "is on the same level" as character B and C, therefore in a 2 vs 1 match, character A easily loses to character B and C regardless of the abilities of those characters.  Yet why is it now that you want to ignore the whole levels logic and only argue feats?  

For people who want to know what I am talking about, read the bottom of post #19 and/or the rest of our discussion


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## αce (May 9, 2013)

Sometimes you don't need feats. Yes, A>B>C logic doesn't always apply. But when Madara can beat Oonoki and Muu simultaneously without using perfect Susano-o, while Hashirama tango'd with perfect Susano-o _and_ Kyuubi _in base_....yeah, well the outcome is obvious.


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## Trojan (May 9, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *Wouldn't perfect SM grant Hashirama sensing?*



it would, but sometimes i see some people say "Feat only in the BD" or they don't give it
to Jman even though he has SM. Therefore, I thought that apply to Hashi as well.  



Rasant said:


> Hashirama stomps the two so bad Onoki never finds himself again.
> 
> So when did putting a top tier against two mid tiers make a good match?



- yeah that's cool, but how?
- When you start to put your reasons? 



Rocky said:


> There is no debate to he had. Hashirama bends these two over.
> 
> The Gokage came off as academy noobs against Madara, who without the Kyuubi is inferior big time to Shodai.



- Eccept this Madara is stronger than Hashi! and for the second part Hashi doesn't have
SM here or his Buddha. So even without Kurama Madara is stronger than him here. 



Kai said:


> Hashirama is a sensor, but it seems Muu can only be sensed through physical contact (sensor sand, detection barrier, physical touch) as he can completely erase his chakra signature.
> 
> As for Onoki's large scale Jinton, Hashirama can use the appropriate number of Rashomon gates or Mokuton: Hobi no Jutsu to mitigate or redirect that powerful offense. Onoki has one of the greatest endurance feats in the manga, but his stamina is not even up for comparison against Hashirama. I see Onoki collapsing before Hashirama adopts an all out mentality.



- Seems so.
- that will not help, the Jinton destroys every thing in its way there is nothing can stand, at least
as far as we saw. and for Stamina he's in his prime here, and he has Mu to support him. 



Rocky said:


> Correct, as Madara showed us.



Madara fought Onoki like 50 years ago? 



ueharakk said:


> Scenario 1) 5 giant wood hands gg.  Their jinton can't destroy 2 wood hands that are large enough to grab 100% Kurama before the hands crush them especially considering how quickly the wood hands erupt from the ground (fast enough to catch a PS sword swing).
> 
> Scenario 2)
> not sure yet, will look at more responses.  Matchups with Tobi or Minato always get really tricky.
> ...



1- You do now they are fighting while flying, right? So  how the hands supposed to catch them?
2- who said it cant? Onoki can do as he did here
Manga
to destroy all the wood, and there is Mu to help him as well, if they were lucky maybe
something like this happen
Manga

3- For your questions, I assume you talk about A and SM Naruto or B with the Gokage?
first, because Naruto said to be equal to SM Sasuke (even though I see him stronger than
sasuke) A showed that he almost killed Sasuke and then he was able to fight 5 Sasunoos
and there are the 5m for SM. Thus I see them in the same level. 

and for B, actually the Gokage have both hybe and feat, they said to be the strongest
in their villages in the Kage arc. and each of them was able to fight 5 Susanoo. I don't care
if you think they didn't win, but at least they were able to hold their own for too long while B
almost died against 1!
Manga
and there is the other chapter when Naruto helped him against the Susanoo

people underestimate them becuse they lost to the strongest character? 

Now, for this battle with Hashi, Onoki has the feat to destroy Hashi's wood
and actually they also have hype! You ask how?

1- A said that the Jinton is surpass all BL, and they wood is NOT excluded we already say it. 
2- Mu said that numbers are meaningless against him and only Jinton user can defeat him!
(Well, it's not really true, but hype is hype lol)

of course Hashi is stronger than them, but raw power is NOT everything, and that's what
I see in your discussion you think who has more firepower, he'll win regardless! 
(if I'm not mistaken) like saying B can use 4 TBB then all the kage will lose. ~~ 

anyway, just to let you know, I will not inter in onther discussion about A, B or the Kages
this is about Onoki, Mu and Hashi. I don't even have time! 

I said that just to make my point of view clear. @.@



αce said:


> Sometimes you don't need feats. Yes, A>B>C logic doesn't always apply. But when Madara can beat Oonoki and Muu simultaneously without using perfect Susano-o, while Hashirama tango'd with perfect Susano-o _and_ Kyuubi _in base_....yeah, well the outcome is obvious.



So, what I understood from this is Hashi doesn't really show any feat to deal with jinton
so you rely on Madara's feat?

and we don't even know how strong they were when they fought him!  


> while Hashirama tango'd with perfect Susano-o _and_ Kyuubi _in base_....yeah, well the outcome is obvious



He did that with SM and his Buddha which he can't use here! 
(even though I think Onoki has the jutsu so stop it.)


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## egressmadara (May 9, 2013)

I have a feeling Hashirama can flip over Onoki and Mu from 60 meters away before either of them can fire a Jinton at his way and strangle the living hell out of them.


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## joshhookway (May 9, 2013)

Flower world solos.


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## ueharakk (May 9, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- You do now they are fighting while flying, right? So  how the hands supposed to catch them?
> 2- who said it cant? Onoki can do as he did here
> Shinra Tensei barrier
> to destroy all the wood, and there is Mu to help him as well, if they were lucky maybe
> ...


1) the wood hands reach above 100% Kurama, that's higher than oonoki canonically flies while fighting people on the ground, and the higher they fly the easier it is to dodge their jinton.

2) Oonoki had to hold the jinton beam and do many rotations in order to clear that amount of forest.  By the time he has done enough damage to destroy one hand, the other has already grabbed him.

3) Oonoki only destroyed a small portion of flower tree world *as we see later that the majority of the technique is still there.*



TorJaN said:


> 3- For your questions, I assume you talk about A and SM Naruto or B with the Gokage?
> first, because Naruto said to be equal to SM Sasuke (even though I see him stronger than
> sasuke) A showed that he almost killed Sasuke and then he was able to fight 5 Sasunoos
> and there are the 5m for SM. Thus I see them in the same level.


TorJan, this exact statement right here is textbook A>B>C logic that you deny people like Rocky in this thread.  Going by this logic, Mei would solo 5 SM Narutos.  



TorJaN said:


> and for B, actually the Gokage have both hybe and feat, they said to be the strongest
> in their villages in the Kage arc. and each of them was able to fight 5 Susanoo. I don't care
> if you think they didn't win, but at least they were able to hold their own for too long while B
> almost died against 1!
> ...


wow just wow.  TorJaN, do you ever stop to think what conclusions your logic necessarily leads to?  If you want to compare bee's overall ability or powerlevel to the individual members of the gokages based on their performance against susanoo, then *you would have to logically conclude that Mei or any one of the gokage could solo 5 Bees and 5 Gais at the same time.*  That's the ridiculous conclusions that your logic of "if 5 Susanoo > Mei and 1 susanoo >>> Bee + Gai, then Mei > 5 Bee and 5 Gai" gets you. 



TorJaN said:


> people underestimate them becuse they lost to the strongest character?


In no way do people draw their conclusions on the gokages strength based on them losing to Edo Madara.  They draw their conclusions based on the FEATS they displayed while fighting Edo Madara. 

once again, your conclusions are based purely on textbook A>B>C logic.  Madara is stated to be inferior to Hashirama, yet Madara w/o Kurama and w/o Perfect Susanoo beats oonoki and muu without a scratch.  

So using the same A>B>C logic you use to evaluate the gokage vs Bee, how in the world does Hashirama not stomp the two jinton users?



TorJaN said:


> Now, for this battle with Hashi, Onoki has the feat to destroy Hashi's wood
> and actually they also have hype! You ask how?
> 
> 1- A said that the Jinton is surpass all BL, and they wood is NOT excluded we already say it.
> ...


this is completely and utterly irrelevant to what the point that I am making.  Sure one can make a case for the jinton users winning, however in order for YOU to do that, you would have to go full retard on the logic that you consistently use to evaluate the threads that we've argued in.



TorJaN said:


> of course Hashi is stronger than them, but raw power is NOT everything, and that's what
> I see in your discussion you think who has more firepower, he'll win regardless!
> (if I'm not mistaken) like saying B can use 4 TBB then all the kage will lose. ~~


Completely and utterly false.  In no way shape or form do I argue that because one has more firepower, he'll win regardless.  If I say a person who has greater firepower beats someone who doesn't, I SHOW how they use that firepower to win.  If the other person has a way of bypassing that firepower, defending against it, or preventing it from happeneing, then I take it into account.  Just look at my tier list, Bee has much much more firepower than Minato, Nagato, EMS Sasuke, Edo Itachi, SM Naruto or SM Kabuto, yet why do I place him below?  Yuugito and Yagura have more firepower than pretty much any of the kage level people bar the other jinchuriki, yet where do I place them?  What about Deidara, why is he two tiers below feats-only EMS Sasuke or Edo itachi?  Surely he has more firepower than the both of them?  So in no way am I guilty of thinking that firepower = everything, and I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to pin false labels on other people's arguments for the sole purpose of trying to divert attention away from the fallacies and shortcomings of your own.

However you completely ignore any type of feats matchup when it's convenient for you.  That's why you simply state things like "Ei is around bee's level, the gokage are all around ei's level, so Ei + one more kage > bee" without even evaluating how their powers stack up against each other.



TorJaN said:


> anyway, just to let you know, I will not inter in onther discussion about A, B or the Kages
> this is about Onoki, Mu and Hashi. I don't even have time!
> 
> I said that just to make my point of view clear. @.@


The point that you've made is crystal clear to anyone trying to read our discussion objectively.  You've just used textbook A>B>C logic to evaluate SM Naruto vs kages and Bee vs gokage why is it that you suddenly dive into feats in order to evaluate Hashirama vs Muu and Oonoki?


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## Dr. White (May 9, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Scenario one goes to team Jinton. Once Muu goes invisible Hashi has no way of finding him and since Hashi hasn't been hinted at being a Sensor, he won't see the attack from being coming.
> 
> Scenario two goes the same way unless Hashi goes into SM right off the which would likely allow Hashi to sense Muu when he pops up to attack but thats unlikely to happen.



Base Hashirama can sense, both Senju brothers were mentioned as sensor's Tobirama just being the better of the two. Also, since Zetsu gains his techniques straight from Hashirama, and he can sense the land, I wouldn't doubt Hashi can. He also obviously has SM.

Hashi = Sensor anyway you cut the cake.


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## Trojan (May 9, 2013)

egressmadara said:


> I have a feeling Hashirama can flip over Onoki and Mu from 60 meters away before either of them can fire a Jinton at his way and strangle the living hell out of them.



How so? 



joshhookway said:


> Flower world solos.


kage bunshin


> =ueharakk;47176191]1) the wood hands reach above 100% Kurama, that's higher than oonoki canonically flies while fighting people on the ground, and the higher they fly the easier it is to dodge their jinton.
> 
> 2) Oonoki had to hold the jinton beam and do many rotations in order to clear that amount of forest.  By the time he has done enough damage to destroy one hand, the other has already grabbed him.
> 
> 3) Oonoki only destroyed a small portion of flower tree world *as we see later that the majority of the technique is still there.*



1- It doesn't matter since he can fly as high as he want! and for the second part, I'm not sure
How Hashi supposed to see Mu coming. @.@ 

2- I don't think so, Onoki took sometime because of the effect of Madara's jutsu. However
the hands don't have the same effect. Also, he dodge that jutsu easly by flying, but it's because
of Madara he couldn't do it for so long. 

3- it doesn't matter since it becomes non factor after that. 


> TorJan, this exact statement right here is textbook A>B>C logic that you deny people like Rocky in this thread.



How so? Hashi have not faced any jinton user (as long as we know)
while A have the feat of super speed that can dodge any of Naruto's jutsu. 
Also, unlike Rocky I said they (Naruto, Sasuke and A) on the same level, not A will win
against Naruto because he's on the same level (or can kill) Sasuke! 

A has the feat to win (and to lose) but Hashi's wood can't do anything to the jinton (other than
his Buddha) I didn't even say he'll lose, I only asked him to give me a reason other than saying
Madara won, Hashi wins!  



> once again, your conclusions are based purely on textbook A>B>C logic.  Madara is stated to be inferior to Hashirama, yet Madara w/o Kurama and w/o Perfect Susanoo beats oonoki and muu without a scratch.



the old Madara. @.@ and even this Madara would have killed if he weren't an edo. 
Yes, that's before 50 years? Can we say Lee > Naruto and/or Sasuke because he defeated
them in 1 second with 1 kick? We don't know if they had thir Jinton or no. 

again I know Hashi is stronger than them and I don't deny that, but can he wins without
his SM? 


> So using the same A>B>C logic you use to evaluate the gokage vs Bee, how in the world does Hashirama not stomp the two jinton users?



- I told you even by feat I hardly see B > A alone actually. 
- Because they can defeat his wood with their jinton? or fly away from it? 


> this is completely and utterly irrelevant to what the point that I am making.  Sure one can make a case for the jinton users winning, however in order for YOU to do that, you would have to go full retard on the logic that you consistently use to evaluate the threads that we've argued in.


mmm, I'm not sure how to relpy to this honestly. :S



> Completely and utterly false.  In no way shape or form do I argue that because one has more firepower, he'll win regardless.  If I say a person who has greater firepower beats someone who doesn't, I SHOW how they use that firepower to win.  If the other person has a way of bypassing that firepower, defending against it, or preventing it from happeneing, then I take it into account.  Just look at my tier list, Bee has much much more firepower than Minato, Nagato, EMS Sasuke, Edo Itachi, SM Naruto or SM Kabuto, yet why do I place him below?  Yuugito and Yagura have more firepower than pretty much any of the kage level people bar the other jinchuriki, yet where do I place them?  What about Deidara, why is he two tiers below feats-only EMS Sasuke or Edo itachi?  Surely he has more firepower than the both of them?  So in no way am I guilty of thinking that firepower = everything, and I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to pin false labels on other people's arguments for the sole purpose of trying to divert attention away from the fallacies and shortcomings of your own.


O.K I'll give you that. 



> However you completely ignore any type of feats matchup when it's convenient for you.  That's why you simply state things like "Ei is around bee's level, the gokage are all around ei's level, so Ei + one more kage > bee" without even evaluating how their powers stack up against each other.



The only one (or two?) Kage from them who will not do that's much against be are
Gaara & Mei, I don't reaaly see B wins against A, Onoki or Tsunade with that's easy
and yes, even if they were A and Tsunade I think they will win against him, let alone the
4 of them together. 


> The point that you've made is crystal clear to anyone trying to read our discussion objectively.  You've just used textbook A>B>C logic to evaluate SM Naruto vs kages and Bee vs gokage why is it that you suddenly dive into feats in order to evaluate Hashirama vs Muu and Oonoki?



1- the only Kages that I see as stronger than SM Naruto or equal to him are
Onoki and A. and I actually believe they have the feat for that, makeing statement about
their level is also to support it. You disaggred with me about it, and when there were some threads about them, you saw clearly that's not just me who thinks A = SM Naruto! 

on other words A has the feat AND hype to be like that. The same with B, A had already
fought the 8tails, Tsunade has even more power than him and she can use her jutsu to
support Mei jutsus, to say B is stronger than all 4 of them is just ignorance. 

now for the topic. as I said I don't deny that Hashi is stronger than them, and useing feat
only is just stupid, not all characters have the same amount of time to show their full power.
I don't deny that Hiruzen > Hashirama even though he almost has no feat at all. 

Hashi by hype >>>>>>>>>> Onoki & Mu
Hashi by feats >>>>>>>>> Onoki & Mu 

and I don't ask about that, I wanna know by feat only (and without SM & Buddha) how well
he will do!  Taking away a HUGE part of his power away will surely change the out come, that
should be obviuse. 

I even said the Hokages are the strongest (par Madara, and Naruto) even though most of them
do not have enough feat for that, but the manga said so, so they are! 

I'll try to make it easier for you even more. I want to know what Hashi can do
against them in this battle without his SM, NOT by his hype or his FULL power!

I'm tired now. ~~ 
anyway farewell, I have final exame to care about. 

take care.


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## CoockiesAndMilf (May 9, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> When Mū uses the Meisaigakure no Jutsu his chakra is undetectable.



*I was more in a context of Hashirama sensing Muu when he attempts to use Jinton.*


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## Okodi (May 9, 2013)

If Hashirama has an equivalent thing then he could possibly deal the Jintons. How he would deal with mister invisible is unkwown though. Maybe he could use some of his water techniques.

Shinra Tensei barrier


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## Thunder (May 9, 2013)

*Scenario 1*

Madara humbled these two in canon without having to go all out. Logically Hashirama should be capable of the same . . . because he's Hashirama. It's really that simple. This reasoning only seems absurd to those who ignore established power levels of the manga in order to accommodate feats.

No, I'm not a big fan of using transitive logic myself. I'm just aware that exceptions can be made in special  cases and this is a special case because Hashirama is involved. 

*Scenario 2*

I'm going to wait on this one. I need to see who Kishimoto has Edo Hashirama fight before I can give an accurate response.


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## ueharakk (May 9, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- It doesn't matter since he can fly as high as he want! and for the second part, I'm not sure
> How Hashi supposed to see Mu coming. @.@


Muu has to become visible in order to fire his jinton, and if oonoki and muu fly super high, then they aren't going to be able to do anything since they will never hit hashirama from that distance and eventually will run out of chakra from firing jintons.



TorJaN said:


> 2- I don't think so, Onoki took sometime because of the effect of Madara's jutsu. However
> the hands don't have the same effect. Also, he dodge that jutsu easly by flying, but it's because
> of Madara he couldn't do it for so long.


Nope, Madara's jutsu had zero effect on how POWERFUL oonoki's jinton is which is all my statement takes into account.  The fact is that oonoki had to do many revolutions with his jinton beam going full blast in order to clear out that mokuton, meaning he isn't going to be able to destroy 2 arms that are big enough to grab 100% Kurama before they grab him.



TorJaN said:


> 3- it doesn't matter since it becomes non factor after that.


It completely matters if we are talking about how he gets rid of giant mokuton hands that he HAS to destroy in order to defeat.  and it completely matters since you are falsely hyping jinton to be capable of destroying flower tree world, which it by no means did.



TorJaN said:


> How so? Hashi have not faced any jinton user (as long as we know)
> while A have the feat of super speed that can dodge any of Naruto's jutsu.


Ei having feats of super speed is irrelevant because the entire reason you say Ei can beat Naruto is not because of his super speed feats, but because he fought MS Sasuke and fought 5 susanoos.  If you want to argue feats, we can do that however, that is not what you base your arguments on, you base them purely on the raw outcomes of a fight and then you generalize A>B>C logic.



TorJaN said:


> Also, unlike Rocky I said they (Naruto, Sasuke and A) on the same level, not A will win
> against Naruto because he's on the same level (or can kill) Sasuke!


Yet by this exact same 'levels' argument you throw around, Base Hashirama is on EMS Madara's level, the same EMS Madara that stomped oonoki and muu without even using PS.  Yet for some reason, when we talk about base hashirama, levels mean jack squat, now what matters is pure feats.



TorJaN said:


> A has the feat to win (and to lose) but Hashi's wood can't do anything to the jinton (other than
> his Buddha) I didn't even say he'll lose, I only asked him to give me a reason other than saying
> Madara won, Hashi wins!


Ei doesn't have the feats to win which is why whenever I try to argue feats with you, you always resort to: "ei is on the same level as Naruto because he fought sasuke or he fought susanoo"  that's not feats, that's pure A>B>C logic based on the raw outcomes of a match.  Your argument with Ei, SM Naruto and Sasuke is completely about 'levels' and A>B>C logic, yet now with Hashirama its all about feats.  Double standards are double standards.




TorJaN said:


> the old Madara. @.@ and even this Madara would have killed if he weren't an edo.
> Yes, that's before 50 years? Can we say Lee > Naruto and/or Sasuke because he defeated
> them in 1 second with 1 kick? We don't know if they had thir Jinton or no.


Wow just wow.  So now you are arguing that the gokage > EMS Madara?  And lee =/= Naruto and Sasuke because we can prove that currrent Naruto and Sasuke are above the one lee fought BASED ON FEATS!!!!!!!  What argument, logic or evidence do you have to show that current Oonoki is completely different than his old young self, or that muu is completely different than his young self?  Don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.



TorJaN said:


> again I know Hashi is stronger than them and I don't deny that, but can he wins without
> his SM?


By your whole 'levels' logic, YES.  Base Hashirama is on EMS Madara's level, and EMS Madara didn't even need PS to spank oonoki and muu.  Based on your own faulty logic, you would necessarily have to conclude that Base Hashirama stomps muu and oonoki.  



TorJaN said:


> - I told you even by feat I hardly see B > A alone actually.


which you have never ever been able to formulate a logical argument for.  And by your own logic, A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B since Bee got messed up by just 1 Susanoo while Ei was able to survive against 5.  Look at all the ridiculous double standards your argument has to cater to.



TorJaN said:


> - Because they can defeat his wood with their jinton? or fly away from it?


Oh.... wow.  We've seen a normal TBB can destroy an entire battlefield of wood, does that mean Bee can beat Hashirama?  Goodness gracious.



TorJaN said:


> mmm, I'm not sure how to relpy to this honestly. :S


of course, I wouldn't expect you to be able to reply to posts that expose you using really blatant double standards.



TorJaN said:


> The only one (or two?) Kage from them who will not do that's much against be are
> Gaara & Mei, I don't reaaly see B wins against A, Onoki or Tsunade with that's easy
> and yes, even if they were A and Tsunade I think they will win against him, let alone the
> 4 of them together.


Of course you "think" that, however you've never been able to create a logical argument to actually support that.  And the thread I referenced shows that.



TorJaN said:


> 1- the only Kages that I see as stronger than SM Naruto or equal to him are
> Onoki and A. and I actually believe they have the feat for that, makeing statement about
> their level is also to support it. You disaggred with me about it, and when there were some threads about them, you saw clearly that's not just me who thinks A = SM Naruto!


Once again, if you believe that SM Naruto and Ei and oonoki are on the same level based on feats, then you should be able to formulate a logical argument that shows that.  However you've never ever been able to do that.  Whenever i have argued that with you in threads, you've stooped to A>B>C logic after I've exposed the fallacys and weaknesses of your attempt at arguing due to feats.  

If you want to argue via A>B>C logic, that's fine with me, however you have to argue ALL versus matches via A>B>C logic else it's a double standard on your part, you can't pick and chose which matches you want evaluate using which logic because that's a double standard.



TorJaN said:


> on other words A has the feat AND hype to be like that. *The same with B, A had already
> fought the 8tails, Tsunade has even more power than him and she can use her jutsu to
> support Mei jutsus,* to say B is stronger than all 4 of them is just ignorance.


TorJaN, look at the bolded. That's pure A>B>C logic nothing to do with feats.  If Ei fought the 8 tails what FEATS did he display WHEN he fought the 8 tails that would allow him to win?  

And no, to say B is not stronger than all 4 of them based on pure A>B>C logic which would allow a single SM Naruto clone to be > Sandaime Raikage, is ignorance.



TorJaN said:


> now for the topic. as I said I don't deny that Hashi is stronger than them, and *useing feat
> only is just stupid,* not all characters have the same amount of time to show their full power.
> I don't deny that Hiruzen > Hashirama even though he almost has no feat at all.


If the bolded is true, then why the hell doesn't hashirama stomp the two jinton users?  By hype he's EMS Madara level in base, the same guy who stomped the hell out of oonoki and muu without even using PS.  



TorJaN said:


> *and I don't ask about that, I wanna know by feat only (and without SM & Buddha) how well
> he will do!*  Taking away a HUGE part of his power away will surely change the out come, that
> should be obviuse.


TorJaN, I'm beginning to wonder if there is any hope for you (jokes, of course there's always hope but seriously man you're pretty terrible).  Look at what you typed just a few sentences earlier in this post:
*Spoiler*: __ 





TorJaN said:


> *useing feat only is just stupid,*





And now look at what you typed not only a few sentences later:

*Spoiler*: __ 





TorJaN said:


> *I wanna know by feat only (and without SM & Buddha) how well
> he will do!*





What the hell?  If you want to restrict the thread to "feats only" then you write that in the OP else, its just a normal debate where feats and hype are taken into account, and a normal debate and where they evaluate the matchup based on their normal methods of evaluation. 



TorJaN said:


> I'm tired now. ~~
> anyway farewell, I have final exame to care about.
> 
> take care.


good luck on your exams, do what you gotta do man.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (May 9, 2013)

My understanding of Muu's jutsu is that only physical contact can detect him when he uses it--even Sage sensing probably won't work.  That actually makes this more than just "Hashi stomps."  However, I still think he'll win because he has an attack that doesn't depend on knowing where the enemy is--Flower World.  He can just flood the battlefield with pollen, and wherever he is, Muu will go to sleep.


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## Bonly (May 9, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Base Hashirama can sense, both Senju brothers were mentioned as sensor's Tobirama just being the better of the two. Also, since Zetsu gains his techniques straight from Hashirama, and he can sense the land, I wouldn't doubt Hashi can. He also obviously has SM.
> 
> Hashi = Sensor anyway you cut the cake.



Can you show me the scan of Hashi being mentioned as a sensor in base?


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## Dr. White (May 9, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Can you show me the scan of Hashi being mentioned as a sensor in base?



Here Tobirama makes a direct comparison between there sensing abilities, implying Hashi has them but wasn't as efficient as Tobirama. This is backed up by both of them sensing after being recalled via ET

Edit: After Review Hashi did not sense being an edo


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## Bonly (May 9, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Here Tobirama makes a direct comparison between there sensing abilities, implying Hashi has them but wasn't as efficient as Tobirama. This is backed up by both of them sensing after being recalled via ET
> 
> Edit: After Review Hashi did not sense being an edo



In the words of my brother "Well butter me up and call me biscuit brother Jack, you get to witness the rare phenomenon that is me being wrong" .


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## Gilgamesh (May 10, 2013)

Madara>Muu+Onoki
Hashirama>Madara+Kyuubi

Therefore Hashirama>>>Muu+Onoki

Logic people


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