# As a leader, Naruto pales in comparison to Hashirama



## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

Naruto will never surpass Hashirama now.

As a kid, Hashirama was already thinking of dividing missions into ranks to protect children from danger. He already knew the way to stop fighting is to form an alliance with your rivals.

Naruto is still screaming about becoming Hokage and saying he'll think of a solution later. He lets Karui beat him up. He begs in front of A. His only argument to Nagato is Jiraiya's book. He never has an intellectual answer and only knows how to fight or befriend.

Hashi is the best type of leader. Not Naruto the befriender, nor Shikamaru the tactician, but Hashi, the one who transforms society.

Naruto is still a decent leader, with his hard work and sticking to his values, but Hashirama is all of Naruto's strength, values, and more. Now I understand why Madara wanks Hashirama incessantly.




...


Discuss


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## Corax (Mar 6, 2013)

His plan failed. A lot of children participated in all 3 great ninja wars (Obito,Kakashi,etc.). And this is for Konoha,in Kiri things were even worse actually.


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## Rios (Mar 6, 2013)

He ultimately failed. I am not trying to defend Naruto(lol) but he has the right idea. Brainwash people into worshipping you instead of trusting them with your bijuu.


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## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

Corax said:


> His plan failed. A lot of children participated in all 3 great ninja wars (Obito,Kakashi,etc.). And this is for Konoha,in Kiri things were even worse actually.





Rios said:


> He ultimately failed. I am not trying to defend Naruto(lol) but he has the right idea. Brainwash people into worshipping you instead of trusting them with your bijuu.



It's a work in progress guys. It's a huge improvement from the old system. About as good as you can ask for from any leader IMO.

Now Naruto, he's not thinking about any of that at all. It's not even his PLAN to brainwash people into worshipping him. He has no plan! God save the ninja world!


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## Raidoton (Mar 6, 2013)

So in other words, Naruto is a more realistic child and a better written character...


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## Rios (Mar 6, 2013)

Raidoton said:


> So in other words, Naruto is a more realistic child and a better written character...



Maybe in part 1. In part 2 he is far from realistic.


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## BisonLlama (Mar 6, 2013)

Oh look, another Naruto bashing thread.  These never gets old!

Have we even seen Naruto be a leader of anything or anyone?  Note that he's only 16 and also Hashirama pretty much had to mature quickly due to war, especially in his era.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 6, 2013)

its easier to build from nothing than it is to build from an already established system.

Naruto already lived in a time of peace, so why would he envision a plan to make peace? There was no war, catalyst, big bad, for him to deal with and try to fix that he knew of.

[sp=Tag over-sized images][/sp]

"A generation that doesn't know war"

Hashirama was a generation that was CONSTANT war.....

Naruto has now experienced war and pain and the hatred RECENTLY, and has begun to think about it. And we HAVE seen him thinking about it well now.


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## Addy (Mar 6, 2013)

when did naruto show leader like qualities?


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## Oahgneg (Mar 6, 2013)

I see Naruto more as a diplomat than a leader-planner.


Addy said:


> when did naruto show leader like qualities?


People tend to interpret his TKB coordination as 'leadership'.


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## BlinkST (Mar 6, 2013)

Faith is the key. Hashirama failed to stop the wars, and failed to save his rival. Naruto has already united the villages, and he'll surpass Hashirama by saving Sasuke.


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## tnorbo (Mar 6, 2013)

BlinkST said:


> Faith is the key. Hashirama failed to stop the wars, and failed to save his rival. Naruto has already united the villages, and he'll surpass Hashirama by saving Sasuke.



naruto didn't unite the villages, tobi did.


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## Rios (Mar 6, 2013)

tnorbo said:


> naruto didn't unite the villages, tobi did.



Madara's name did


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## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Oh look, another Naruto bashing topic and Hashirama praise topic. Like these never get old.





BisonLlama said:


> Oh look, another Naruto bashing thread.  These never gets old!



This is not a Naruto bashing thread. Naruto is a great character.

It just so happens that this is the first time we have specific leadership feats to measure, and Naruto falls way behind. This thread is about that.



Raidoton said:


> So in other words, Naruto is a more realistic child and a better written character...





BisonLlama said:


> Have we even seen Naruto be a leader of anything or anyone?  Note that he's only 16 and also Hashirama pretty much had to mature quickly due to war, especially in his era.



He's not a child anymore, and there are high schoolers who are deeper thinking than he is.



Mistshadow said:


> *its easier to build from nothing than it is to build from an already established system.*
> 
> Naruto already lived in a time of peace, so why would he envision a plan to make peace? There was no war, catalyst, big bad, for him to deal with and try to fix that he knew of.
> 
> ...



I think it's easier to make changes than build from scratch. And he did see the effects of the ninja system as early as Gaara and Sasuke. But he blamed them and tried to change them, and not the system.

Good point though, he may only be starting to think about changing the system now because he didn't realize there was a wider problem until now.



Addy said:


> when did naruto show leader like qualities?



He does have values, hard work, aggression, and empathy. All quite useful. He's just not much of a reformer or planner as of currently.



tnorbo said:


> naruto didn't unite the villages, tobi did.



QFT!


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## Zen-aku (Mar 6, 2013)

as others have said hashirama failed miseribrly at the hole , stop kids from going to warr thiiing


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## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

Zen-aku said:


> as others have said hashirama failed miseribrly at the hole , stop kids from going to warr thiiing



Do you see Konohamaru's corpse laying on the battlefield with a wooden splinter run through him? Hashirama made MAJOR progress, as much as you could ask for. As I have said already


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## Cromer (Mar 6, 2013)

Naruto's something of a late bloomer, though I tend to agree with the gist of the topic. In mitigation, Naruto's only just beginning to realize there's a problem, and he has both the example and previous work of his predecessors to guide. Let's wait and see what he can come up with, shall we?


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## Deana (Mar 6, 2013)

I think Hashi failed as a leader because apparently time he died his ideals meant nothing to his brother or the Shinobi world at large.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 6, 2013)

Naruto is portraying the naive idealism of a 10-year-old at the age of 16 when he is supposed to be leading the army of the world against the greatest evil to ever exist. He would make an absolutely terrible leader.

We're all supposed to believe he's great and will be the best leader ever but in reality, it's all a lot of force-fed garbage that nobody over the age of 12 is going to buy as a realistic solution to the world's problems. 

Naruto is still too stupid to realize that being hokage is incompatible with eliminating the current shinobi system. He wants all the power and fame for himself, but doesn't want the system that will allow him to have it because it just might give power and fame to others, too.



BlinkST said:


> Faith is the key. Hashirama failed to stop the wars, and failed to save his rival. Naruto has already united the villages, and he'll surpass Hashirama by saving Sasuke.





tnorbo said:


> naruto didn't unite the villages, tobi did.





Rios said:


> Madara's name did



Well that was cleared up quickly.

Madara's name was mentioned once and people got so scared they started a United Front while Naruto was off crying and hyperventilating in the snow.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

People are still in denial I see  Naruto is going to bring peace to the ninja world, something that all that came before him failed to do.


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## Rios (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> People are still in denial I see  Naruto is going to bring peace to the ninja world, something that all that came before him failed to do.



But will it be believable?


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## Mistshadow (Mar 6, 2013)

Rios said:


> But will it be believable?



of course not, there is no such thing as peace, or a solution ...........


that's why this is fiction


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## Rios (Mar 6, 2013)

But Madara/Obito's plan for eternal peace actually makes sense in universe.

Naruto's so far doesnt.


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## Addy (Mar 6, 2013)

Oahgneg said:


> People tend to interpret his TKB coordination as 'leadership'.


naruto was jerked around this war from start to finish if i am not mistaken. the only thing he did was defy the raikage but that is generic shounen friendship 101



> I see Naruto more as a diplomat than a leader-planner.



i don't see him like by a long stretch. diplomats think. naruto feels.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 6, 2013)

Rios said:


> But Madara/Obito's plan for eternal peace actually makes sense in universe.
> 
> Naruto's so far doesnt.



to make everyone have their own dreams come true in a false reality controlled by one EXTREMELY flawed psychopathic person?

sounds good, let's have kim jong un take over. 
world peace achieved


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## Leptirica (Mar 6, 2013)

Hashirama was, without a doubt, a great leader. Or he was a half of a great leader, the one with some good ideas. We'll see. 

But Naruto is doing most good in the world when he's unaware of it. Helping one friend at the time is working for him. As soon as he started thinking big and being aware of people relying on him, Naruto started slipping. He started taking on all the burden on himself, which takes its toll. He will end up like Nagato if it goes on. 

So whether you characterize him as a good or a bad leader, I suggest you let him do his thing. After the impact his actions and words had on various people over the course of the manga, the world will be much closer to, if not exactly what Hashirama had on his mind than ever before.


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## Rios (Mar 6, 2013)

Mistshadow said:


> to make everyone have their own dreams come true in a false reality controlled by one EXTREMELY flawed psychopathic person?
> 
> sounds good, let's have kim jong un take over.
> world peace achieved



bringing up real world when last post was how this is fiction


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

To say that Naruto will _never_ surpass Hashirama while the manga is still ongoing, is not wise.

However, i agree that so far Hashirama is more weighted than naruto in seeking a solution.




Pirao said:


> People are still in denial I see  Naruto is going to bring peace to the ninja world, something that all that came before him failed to do.



Did you read the OP?


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## Mistshadow (Mar 6, 2013)

Rios said:


> bringing up real world when last post was how this is fiction



misunderstood your previous most when you said in universe thought you meant ours.

didn't know you meant in naruto universe


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Did you read the OP?



Yes. What about it?


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Yes. What about it?



Then you should know that your post wasn't really relevant to it. And so, your accusation that people are "in denial", the ones that agree with the OP, holds no significance.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Then you should know that your post wasn't really relevant to it. And so, your accusation that people are "in denial", the ones that agree with the OP, holds no significance.



Let's see the opening sentence:



Bontakun said:


> Naruto will never surpass Hashirama now.



Sure, my post wasn't relevant 

Anything else?


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Mar 6, 2013)

It will be interesting to see what Naruto decides to do with the Jinchuriki which he has befriended once the alliance defeats the big bad and whether he makes a decision about that and how that will impact the Naruto world. 

Hashirama is clearly a more intelligent character or to be more precise he spend more time coming with plans for changing the society in the future but the jury is still out for all Naruto's accomplishments.  

I mean whether you find it good writting or not (I did not particularly enjoy that as great writting although it is consistent with what this manga is about) him coming with an understanding and becoming the first human friend since the RS for the JInchuriki is a pretty big deal already. So because he managed to become their friend he might make a more intelligent decision as well as becoming their friends might be more intelligent handling of them than Hashirama decided to do with them.

I think part of it is written to be general shoen main character convincing everyone to be their friends but part of it is also that this guy is potrayed to be a self aware person caring to understand and befriend others which does have leadership advantages when among those he befriends super strong beings.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 6, 2013)

Qhorin Halfhand said:


> *It will be interesting to see what Naruto decides to do with the Jinchuriki which he has befriended once the alliance defeats the big bad and whether he makes a decision about that and how that will impact the Naruto world. *
> .



they are dead.....


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

Qhorin Halfhand said:


> It will be interesting to see what Naruto decides to do with the Jinchuriki which he has befriended once the alliance defeats the big bad and whether he makes a decision about that and how that will impact the Naruto world.
> 
> Hashirama is clearly a more intelligent character or to be more precise he spend more time coming with plans for changing the society in the future but the jury is still out for all Naruto's accomplishments.
> 
> I mean whether you find it good writting or not (I did not particularly enjoy that as great writting although it is consistent with what this manga is about) him coming with an understanding and becoming the first human friend since the RS for the JInchuriki is a pretty big deal already.



I think you meant Bijuu instead of Jinchuriki.

It still needs to be seen if they can be divided from the Juubi again, though.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> I think you meant Bijuu instead of Jinchuriki.



You are right.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Let's see the opening sentence:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That sentence meant that Naruto will never surpass (although i don't agree with the "never" part, since the manga is still not ended) Hashirama, _as leader_.

The fact that he will bring peace or not, it's not relevant to his skill as leader.


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## Algol (Mar 6, 2013)

You act like the Naruto we've seen since he gave Sasuke his answer, tamed Kurama, and fought this war, is the same obsessive, overly idealistic idiot that existed in part 2 prior to all that. Naruto's been completely different for a while now.

With Jiraiya's death, and facing Nagato, and facing his dark self and Kurama, and now the war and everything else up until now, Naruto has been learning about the harshness of the world, and that his idealism doesn't always hold up. But the point is that he presses on and will find an answer through understanding that works no matter what.

His answer to Sasuke finally was a real mature moment everyone seemed to have missed. He realized Sasuke truly crossed a threshold that Naruto would not be able to get him back from with simply getting everyone to forgive him like Naruto thought would work. So he decided that if Sasuke is truly evil, then he can at least force Sasuke to turn all his evil intentions onto him, and take Sasuke down with him. Being willing to give his life to shield the village from Sasuke's hatred and take his corrupted best friend down with him is serious sign of newfound maturity imo.

Also, I'm not sure I get the OP comparison really. Hashi lived through constant clan wars as a child, and so he wanted to change that by making alliances and agreements, great. 

Naruto, on the other hand, lived in an era of peace brought about by the Hokages' visions and sacrifices, and then he was thrust into a war only recently. Now he is trying to settle the matter here with the alliance versus Obidara and Juubi, and he's recovered well and inspired and powered up everyone since having a friend die in his arms.

Hashirama started out a leader, yes, but Naruto is now finally getting there himself. Naruto's answer has been understanding all along, but he's become more mature with it. Let's see how his answer compares, and whether it translates into good leadership as well. Let's see how it goes.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> That sentence meant that Naruto will never surpass (although i don't agree with the "never" part, since the manga is still not ended) Hashirama, _as leader_.
> 
> The fact that he will bring peace or not, it's not relevant to his skill as leader.



Right, uniting everyone and bringing peace means nothing to his skill as a leader. Cool story, bro.


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## Kanali (Mar 6, 2013)

Naruto is pretty fucking pathetic. He TnJ's a big game, but my guess is, as soon as he gets elected Hokage he's going to forget all those lofty promises he made and spend his time in local brothels and ramen stands.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

Kanali said:


> Naruto is pretty fucking pathetic. He TnJ's a big game, but my guess is, as soon as he gets elected Hokage *he's going to forget all those lofty promises he made and spend his time in local brothels and ramen stands.*



Well, he has clones to take care of business so he can spend his time wherever he wants


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Right, uniting everyone and bringing peace means nothing to his skill as a leader. Cool story, bro.



Being able to unite everyone by virtue of friendship, brainwashing, blind faith, or whatever it is, does not equate to being able to manage a country (even less an alliance between every country of the world).


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## Cromer (Mar 6, 2013)

Kanali said:


> Naruto is pretty fucking pathetic. He TnJ's a big game, but my guess is, as soon as he gets elected Hokage he's going to forget all those lofty promises he made and spend his time in local brothels and ramen stands.



Brothels? Naruto? That's some het fanfic, bro!


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## Edo Madara (Mar 6, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> Do you see Konohamaru's corpse laying on the battlefield with a wooden splinter run through him? Hashirama made MAJOR progress, as much as you could ask for. As I have said already



Well Hahirama's grandson / Tsunade brother died in war 

and don't forgot about obito (half dead) and Rin


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## mayumi (Mar 6, 2013)

naruto didn't have anyone to tell him or talk to him but the stuff about "by growing stronger, the only way adults will listen to him" was SPOT ON.
he did that by himself. which adult dares opposes him other than a 16 yr old sasuke? LOL


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Being able to unite everyone by virtue of friendship, brainwashing, blind faith, or whatever it is, *does not equate to being able to manage a country (even less an alliance between every country of the world).*



And? What is your point exactly? Leadership = making people follow you. What has managing have to do with it?



Cromer said:


> Brothels? Naruto? That's some het fanfic, bro!



He didn't specify which kind of brothels


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## Rokudaime (Mar 6, 2013)

Kanali said:


> Naruto is pretty fucking pathetic. He TnJ's a big game, but my guess is, as soon as he gets elected Hokage he's going to forget all those lofty promises he made and spend his time in local brothels and ramen stands.



Nope. Naruto is awesome because he can fulfills those promises he made and spend his time in brothels and ramen at the same time. You just jealous of his capability to do multi-tasking.

Irrational haters are ugly, but jealous haters are even ugly.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> And? What is your point exactly? Leadership = making people follow you. What has managing have to do with it?



Nope, the leadership is a complex concept not reducible to that simplicistic definition.

Moreover, the point is that here no one is questioning Naruto's ability to create followers via friendship, but that Hashirama is showing a greater skill as a leader regarding his ability to make proposals and manage a country.


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## Cromer (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Nope, the leadership is a complex concept not reducible to that simplicistic definition.
> 
> Moreover, the point is that here no one is questioning Naruto's ability to create followers via friendship, but that Hashirama is showing a greater skill as a leader regarding his ability to make proposals and manage a country.



In other words, Hashirama is a better manager than Naruto?


I can get behind that modified statement.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Nope, the leadership is a complex concept not reducible to that simplicistic definition.



Give your definition then.



> Moreover, the point is that here no one is questioning Naruto's ability to create followers via friendship, but that Hashirama is showing a greater skill as a leader regarding his ability to make proposals and manage a country.



Managing is not being a leader.


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## Raventhal (Mar 6, 2013)

Lol, Hashirama did a decent job.  But he in turned clans formed larger gangs of villages but he did make a place in general that was better than before.  Heading away from being an isolated military society would be best.  If it's possible to do without being overrun by the next village.  

A Madara like plan is the only realistic way to peace.  But those types of peace are at the cost of free will.  People are animals and conflict and competition of our natural animal instinct still manifest no matter how civilized we think we get.  Tendencies to group up and natural tendencies to compete and protect always lead to conflict.  The more organized the larger the conflict.

In away though Obito has united the ninja world.  There could be a lasting peace for awhile until those who are alive are dead and enough time passes to forget the sacrifices and bonds of the war.


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## BiNexus (Mar 6, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> [...]
> We're all supposed to believe he's great and will be the best leader ever but in reality, it's all a lot of force-fed garbage that nobody over the age of 12 is going to buy as a realistic solution to the world's problems.
> 
> Naruto is still too stupid to realize that being hokage is incompatible with eliminating the current shinobi system. *He wants all the power and fame for himself, but doesn't want the system that will allow him to have it because it just might give power and fame to others, too.*
> [...]


Honestly, what? When was the last time Naruto said something about being the Hokage, without meaning to change something in the system? That is to say, when was the last time he simply shouted "I wanna be Hokage!!!1one11!!"



Rios said:


> But will it be believable?


Half this manga isn't believable...plus some people in the world think World Peace is an unattainable farce. Whereas others think the solution is simple. It depends on who you ask. For most people, no, the solution will probably not be believable, along with 50% of this manga.


*Spoiler*: __ 



But, hey, it's fiction.


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## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Nope, the leadership is a complex concept not reducible to that simplicistic definition.
> 
> Moreover, the point is that here no one is questioning Naruto's ability to create followers via friendship, but that Hashirama is showing a greater skill as a leader regarding his ability to make proposals and manage a country.



Yes.



Pirao said:


> Give your definition then.
> 
> 
> 
> Managing is not being a leader.



It's not about managing only, it's about seeing what what your country needs, what can be changed, and moving people in that direction. What Naruto is doing is reacting and damage control.

The ninja world came together because of Obito's years of scheming, and then Gaara's leadership. Naruto is only directing the battle because he's strong.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> It's not about managing only, it's about seeing what what your country needs, what can be changed, and moving people in that direction. What Naruto is doing is reacting and damage control.



No, it's about making people follow you. All the good plans in the world with noone following you are not leadership.



> The ninja world came together because of Obito's years of scheming, and then Gaara's leadership. Naruto is only directing the battle because he's strong.



Do I need to bring up every instance of Naruto showing leadership? Seriously?

He has not surpassed Hashirama yet (since world peace has not been achieved yet), but he will, and you're just in denial by saying he won't. It's that simple.


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## Cromer (Mar 6, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> He wants all the power and fame for himself, but doesn't want the system that will allow him to have it because it just might give power and fame to others, too.



What. The Fuck.


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## Skywalker (Mar 6, 2013)

Oh yes he will surpass Hashirama, this is Naruto's manga.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Cromer said:


> In other words, Hashirama is a better manager than Naruto?



It's not only that, since Hashirama doesn't just manage stuff, but also conceives it.




Pirao said:


> Give your definition then.



Here you go [].



> Managing is not being a leader.



Management can be considered a form of leadership, and as i said above, Hashirama does not only manage.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Here you go [].





> Leadership has been described as ?a process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task"



Like what Naruto is doing by enlisting people to accomplish world peace? Thanks for proving my point.



> Management can be considered a form of leadership, and as i said above, Hashirama does not only manage.



I've never said he "only manages". He's a good leader obviously since he convinced other clans to form Konoha.

It's just that Naruto is going to convince the whole world to unite. That is >>> Hashirama's accomplishments.

So, saying Naruto will not surpass Hashirama as a leader is asinine.


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## Raventhal (Mar 6, 2013)

Naruto doesn't have a lot of leadership skills but he has the strength to be Hokage of a military village.  He is stronger than anyone in the village even without Kurama and barring Sasuke who's abbandoned it.  We maybe not Kakashi.


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## izanagi x izanami (Mar 6, 2013)

When Naruto has demonstrated leadership skills?


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## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

Algol said:


> You act like the Naruto we've seen since he gave Sasuke his answer, tamed Kurama, and fought this war, is the same obsessive, overly idealistic idiot that existed in part 2 prior to all that. Naruto's been completely different for a while now.
> 
> With Jiraiya's death, and facing Nagato, and facing his dark self and Kurama, and now the war and everything else up until now, Naruto has been learning about the harshness of the world, and that his idealism doesn't always hold up. But the point is that he presses on and will find an answer through understanding that works no matter what.
> 
> ...



Some times pressing on and doing what works isn't enough. You have to move the entire population in the right direction. Hashi knew what direction he wanted the world to move in and became leader to do it. Naruto wants to become leader and then figure out what to do.



blk said:


> To say that Naruto will _never_ surpass Hashirama while the manga is still ongoing, is not wise.



I can't be certain about "never" of course, but Naruto is already an adult by ninja standards and he's lagging so much chances are dim.

If Hashi was living Naruto's life, he would have already seen, through Haku, Neji, Gaara, Sasuke, and himself, that the mental stress on young ninjas being treated like weapons creates monsters, and he'd already have some plan in his mind for rotating duties, psychological counseling, more inter-village integration (Shinobi Monetary Union anyone? ). Something more than Naruto, who faced with Obito, could not give his vision of a better future.



Rokudaime said:


> Nope. Naruto is awesome because he can fulfills those promises he made and spend his time in brothels and ramen at the same time. You just jealous of his capability to do multi-tasking.
> 
> Irrational haters are ugly, but jealous haters are even ugly.



Naruto is not going to be able to use clones 24/7. When they are dispelled, the damage and weariness on them goes back to him. If he has one clone out 24/7 he'll age twice as fast, if he has 2 clones out, he'll age 3 times as fast. He'll be stuck behind that Hokage desk. There are no shortcuts to being Hokage after all


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Like what Naruto is doing by enlisting people to accomplish world peace? Thanks for proving my point.





> Other in-depth definitions of leadership have also emerged.



The matter is far more complex (as you can see in the same page).



> It's just that Naruto is going to convince the whole world to unite. That is >>> Hashirama's accomplishments.



Again, this is not relevant to the thread.
The point of it is that Hashirama is better than Naruto at managing and ideating things, the fact that Naruto will unite everyone by virtue of friendship has nothing to do with the above skills as leader.

Also, you should consider that the world is already united and the cycle of hatred is already stopped; the purpose of this war is only to establish which side will be the one to bring peace to the world.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> The matter is far more complex (as you can see in the same page).



Let's take a textbook, dictionary definition of leadership then, shall we?



> Again, this is not relevant to the thread.
> The point of it is that Hashirama is better than Naruto at managing and ideating things, the fact that Naruto will unite everyone by virtue of friendship has nothing to do with the above skills as leader.



Except it is. Uniting everyone by friendship doesn't discount it as leadership, so why do you keep pretending it does?



> Also, you should consider that the world is already united and the cycle of hatred is already stopped; the purpose of this war is only to establish which side will be the one to bring peace to the world.



No. They are united against a common enemy, for now. As Oonoki said, they still have to create a permanent alliance after the war.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Let's take a textbook, dictionary definition of leadership then, shall we?



Why should we? 



> Except it is. Uniting everyone by friendship doesn't discount it as leadership, so why do you keep pretending it does?



I'm not saying that it is not leadership, i'm saying that it is not relevant to the particular leadership skills that are being discussed in this thread.



> No. They are united against a common enemy, for now. As Oonoki said, they still have to create a permanent alliance after the war.



The Kages already became all friends, and the army of shinobi was already TNJ by Gaara.
Add to this that the number of shinobi is greatly diminished, and then it becomes clear that the cycle of hatred doesn't exist anymore.

At this point, Naruto's task is just to defeat the remaining opposition (an action that will not alimentate the cycle of hatred) and become the leader of an already peaceful enviroment.


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## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> No, it's about making people follow you. All the good plans in the world with noone following you are not leadership.



You need a plan and persuasion. If you are only getting people to follow you but you have no plan, you are a rock star, not a leader.



> Do I need to bring up every instance of Naruto showing leadership? Seriously?



I doubt you would be able to bring up anything convincing because your reasoning so far has been flawed, but go ahead and try.



> He has not surpassed Hashirama yet (since world peace has not been achieved yet), but he will, and you're just in denial by saying he won't. It's that simple.



You're basically saying Naruto is a leader because of plot and not personality.

And I have no need to deny. If Kishimoto can successfully write Naruto's transformation into a good leader, I'd be happy with that.

You on the other hand are denying the writing in the manga in favor of the idea that the hero of the story will achieve his goal. It's not that simple at all.


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## MangaR (Mar 6, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> Naruto will never surpass Hashirama now.
> 
> As a kid, Hashirama was already thinking of dividing missions into ranks to protect children from danger. He already knew the way to stop fighting is to form an alliance with your rivals.


Errrr, what ? Hashirama grew not hated by his siblings his problem was constat neverending war. Obviously he dreamed about peace. If you listen to what he says its all kid's talk. No methods to achieve something but wishes.
Naruto grew hated by everyone. He didn't care about war because there were no wars just missions that you can choose to participate. What he cared was the  aknowledgement from others and simply "show the all". Do you think Hashi would be any different ? Well, yes he will be, he is too depressed and didn't have any determination until he mets Madara.



> Naruto is still screaming about becoming Hokage and saying he'll think of a solution later. He lets Karui beat him up. He begs in front of A. His only argument to Nagato is Jiraiya's book. He never has an intellectual answer and only knows how to fight or befriend.


Thats Naruto's way. Being a punch beg to Karui and beg Raikage for mercy isn't mature ? He should've showed them both how strong he is and bitchslap them ? What would he accomplish with that ? You know a better way ? He used non violent method and it payed of later.



> Hashi is the best type of leader. Not Naruto the befriender, nor Shikamaru the tactician, but Hashi, the one who transforms society.


Naruto despite all his flaws can change people minds and encourage everyone, make them follow his steps. He IS the leader.
Hashirama it seems used Madara's method. Became so strong that noone would dare to say "no" to him. He implied his terms to everyone by fear more than the actual talk.



> Naruto is still a decent leader, with his hard work and sticking to his values, but Hashirama is all of Naruto's strength, values, and more. Now I understand why Madara wanks Hashirama incessantly.


Madara rides Hashi train simply because he was his friend. Even if Hashi wouldn't be at the leading positions Mads would be always be there for him.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Why should we?



To simplify things obviously. Why should I accept your wikipedia definition?





> I'm not saying that it is not leadership, i'm saying that it is not relevant to the particular leadership skills that are being discussed in this thread.



These thread speaks about leadership. It's leadership, thus it's relevant. Pretty simple.




> The Kages already became all friends, and the army of shinobi was already TNJ by Gaara.
> Add to this that the number of shinobi is greatly diminished, and then it becomes clear that the cycle of hatred doesn't exist anymore.



And Gaara TnJ the army thanks to who? The number of shinobi being diminished means there will be no wars? What kind of logic is that?



> At this point, Naruto's task is just to defeat the remaining opposition (an action that will not alimentate the cycle of hatred) and become the leader of an already peaceful enviroment.



No shit, because he has already convinced most people to see his point of view. Lol at you pretending that Naruto didn't have a hand in all that's happened to get to the current situation. It is quite funny.


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## Descent of the Lion (Mar 6, 2013)

Canon says Naruto's a better leader. People follow him simply because they are compelled to.

Hashirama failed, as his system still involved child deaths. It just reduced the odds of it happening. But as we all know from the waves arc, that a C level mission can become an B level mission relatively quickly.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Pirao said:


> To simplify things obviously. Why should I accept your wikipedia definition?



Because it is more accurate.



> These thread speaks about leadership. It's leadership, thus it's relevant. Pretty simple.



This thread speaks about a _precise_ sets of leaderships skills that Hashirama has, and Naruto has not.
The ability to reach peace through friendship, _has nothing to do with the particular skills that are discussed in this thread_.




> And Gaara TnJ the army thanks to who? The number of shinobi being diminished means there will be no wars? What kind of logic is that?



The only relevant fact is that Gaara TNJ the army.
If we apply your logic, then Naruto was born only because of certain circumstances that wouldn't exist without Hashirama.

If there are less shinobi, it would easier to organize a stable alliance after the war, and control/change the mind of the potential dissidents (that there will hardly be, since the whole army was already TNJ and the remaining shinobi are only a fraction of the ones that there were before).



> No shit, because he has already convinced most people to see his point of view. Lol at you pretending that Naruto didn't have a hand in all that's happened to get to the current situation. It is quite funny.



I didn't say anything of this sort.

However, i repeat: the cycle of hatred doesn't exist anymore, so winning this war will not alimentate it.
Naruto's task to bring peace is facilitated, since the current war serves only to establish _who will rule, and how, the future peaceful world_ (Obito and Madara through Moon Eye Plan, or Naruto through the alliance).


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## Falconandeagle (Mar 6, 2013)

Cromer said:


> What. The Fuck.



It's Pika lol, this is nothing compared to his others posts lol.

His blind fanatical hate for Naruto is legendary on NF xD


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## ch1p (Mar 6, 2013)

The problem here isn't so much that Naruto is a dumbass. We all knew that since chapter 1. So how could this dumbass kid rule a nation without bringing it on its knees?

Since chapter 1 as well, another thing was highlighted: bonds. So Naruto would make friends, who'd help him on things he could not. For a while, this seemed to be the case. Shikamaru was made a fabulous tactician. Sakura was portrayed plenty of times as Tsunade's second hand after Shizune, so she'd learn politics and the whole thing about rulling a village. Sasuke too, was someone who considered things much better. Even Kakashi lent a few hands. However, Naruto has discarded all of them. Shikamaru is a tactician and Naruto never relies on him. Sakura was put in the kitchen by Naruto (doesn't tell her he's going to Iron Country, doesn't tell her about the massacre, ditches her help with Sasuke). Sasuke... well, it's more about proving him wrong than trying to understand his side of the issue. Kakashi was dropped by Kishi in the Iron Country arc.

This is the problem. Naruto has obvious issues he cannot overcome, as a character. Instead of leaning on what he does have to fix this, he does not. The author seems alright with this too, Itachi comment non-withstanding. Maybe it still has some chance of redemption, there are hints that this may be true, but I wouldn't put much faith in it.


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## Danzio (Mar 6, 2013)

This thread was barely  interesting the first 400000000000000000000000000005678963 times it was made.

Yawn.


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## Shattering (Mar 6, 2013)

Naruto is just an insane (being a friend of his parents killer or the guys attempting to destroy the village) idiot with the strongest tailed beast, he is not smart, he is not a good leader and his "answer"  to peace will be the biggest bullshit you have never seen.


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## slickcat (Mar 6, 2013)

I think both of them were brought up in 2 different circumstances where being a fool will get you killed. Naruto still has time to grow


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Mar 6, 2013)

Mistshadow said:


> its easier to build from nothing than it is to build from an already established system.
> 
> Naruto already lived in a time of peace, so why would he envision a plan to make peace? There was no war, catalyst, big bad, for him to deal with and try to fix that he knew of.
> 
> ...


Exactly.

Necessity is the mother of invention and creation, and the fact of the matter is Naruto has only recently had the necessity and motivation to start thinking about peace.

Even if you consider that it was put into his head by Jiraiya a few years ago, most thirteen year olds are not paying attention to what an old guy says...but he remembered it. So when he did have reason to consider that issue, he had a reason to go back to it.

If the OP is looking for an example of Naruto's leadership then I'll give one, and it isn't a popular decision either. Choosing to not finish the fight with Nagato was a leadership move. He made an active decision against his own emotions to NOT continue with the battle. An active conscious decision strike at the cycle of hatred, by taking the burden on himself. He dealt with the feelings of not avenging Jiraiya. He chose to not give in to the Dark Side if you will.


Oahgneg said:


> I see Naruto more as a diplomat than a leader-planner.
> 
> People tend to interpret his TKB coordination as 'leadership'.


This seems to be his natural skill set.

Since Naruto is an empathetic communicator who makes personal connections to the people around him wherever he goes, diplomacy seems to be his calling, which is the perfect disposition for someone with the goal of creating a peaceful environment.


Bontakun said:


> This is not a Naruto bashing thread. Naruto is a great character.
> 
> It just so happens that this is the first time we have specific leadership feats to measure, and Naruto falls way behind. This thread is about that.


Anytime you state as part of your premise that one character is inferior to another for any reason regardless of how academic you try and make it, it can be interpreted as a bashing thread.

The fact of the matter is that while Hashirama and Madara were conceiving this as children as far as we know thus, they had to wait til adulthood to implement it.

I am always annoyed by people who try to pass final judgment on the kid before he's even eighteen.

Or expect him to develop at the exact same rate as the legends of the past.


> He's not a child anymore, and there are high schoolers who are deeper thinking than he is.


And there are adults who are infinitely more shallow, self absorbed, and foolish.



> I think it's easier to make changes than build from scratch. And he did see the effects of the ninja system as early as Gaara and Sasuke. But he blamed them and tried to change them, and not the system.


I disagree with this, look at the Presidential system of the United States. The president is a very restrained leader by the constitution as our founding fathers wished to have a weak executive to prevent the abuses that a King can impose on the people.

In such a system changes are extremely difficult to make by design.

Think of it like a sculpture. A sculpture once sculpted is nearly impossible to alter without destroying it. It's set in stone after all. But if you start with a raw block of rock or clay...then you can make anything.



> He does have values, hard work, aggression, and empathy. All quite useful. He's just not much of a reformer or planner as of currently.


And I believe that this is the biggest thing. Yet.

Give him time. He's still growing, learning, and getting better all the time.

Another point, Naruto has many friends to cover his weaknesses and failings. He has a team.


PikaCheeka said:


> Naruto is portraying the naive idealism of a 10-year-old at the age of 16 when he is supposed to be leading the army of the world against the greatest evil to ever exist. He would make an absolutely terrible leader.
> 
> We're all supposed to believe he's great and will be the best leader ever but in reality, it's all a lot of force-fed garbage that nobody over the age of 12 is going to buy as a realistic solution to the world's problems.
> 
> Naruto is still too stupid to realize that being hokage is incompatible with eliminating the current shinobi system. He wants all the power and fame for himself, but doesn't want the system that will allow him to have it because it just might give power and fame to others, too.



Stop with the anti-idealistic bull shit man.

If you don't have ideals then you become Obito it's as simple as that.

Believing in the best possible outcome isn't naive, it's hope. And hope is as necessary as pragmatism.

And as the OP has pointed out, Naruto hasn't actually offered a solution. He has the more immediate issue of preventing the world as they know it from ending, thereby stopping any sort of real solution.

That said, I have said for a while now that I don't think Naruto will come up with a solution so much as be the catalyst for one. Like in the Wave Country he taught Inari how to be brave, and then Inari got the villagers to arm up and fight back. Naruto isn't a solution to a problem, he's a .


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## Jagger (Mar 6, 2013)

Descent of the Lion said:


> Canon says Naruto's a better leader. People follow him simply because they are compelled to.
> 
> Hashirama failed, as his system still involved child deaths. It just reduced the odds of it happening. But as we all know from the waves arc, that a C level mission can become an B level mission relatively quickly.


Well, Tobirama could had changed the shinobi system a little bit after Hashirama died. Besides, deaths are something you can't avoid in a shinobi world.


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## Sarry (Mar 6, 2013)

Different situations, different requirements!

Hashi and Madara lived through an environment that was far more brutal and far more different that Naruto's. 

In one sense, Hashi did succeed in his plans to change the world. Instead of total war, and war-traditions, you have a better life-standards, and some resemblance of an ideal peace. Madara and Hashi certainly did not fail, as they both create Konoha and ended the constant state of war.


I'll agree that Naruto does leave things wanting a bit, at least for certain readers. However, this is probably because Naruto himself was only aware of the war/peace problem only recently, and he does not have any real experience leading war-parties or actively engaging in bloody missions. 

However, in the end there's one thing I am certain of. Naruto would not have succeeded in his tasked mission(save the world) without Obito's/Madara's plan to alter the world. Naruto's path was heavily dependent on their initial success, otherwise Naruto would not have won the approval of the Kages.


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## Revolution (Mar 6, 2013)

I always had faith in Naruto as a solid character.  The only time he faltered, which seriously disappointed me to the point of liking him a notch less then I did, was because how many times did he say his opponent should give up on him giving up before he actually gave up and started to reach out to Obito.


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## Melas (Mar 6, 2013)

I suppose such repetitive and vacuous threads are apt for the current set of these waste of chapters.

Discussing such qualities outside the context of the results of the application is flawed. What was the outcome of such leadership? Superficial attempts that barely dented the cycle of hatred and resulted in the formation of Akatsuki and unleashing of the Juubi. Wonderful leadership, that.

Hitler was supposed to be a great leader. So?

Moreover, there is no sense in comparing the child of prophecy to the failures that came before him, particularly the ones responsible for the utterly ill-conceived and ill-executed system that has drawn the world into the threat it currently faces.

Hashi's systems was a half-assed solution that bunched clans into villages that fought each others constantly. His so called leadership was a failure at achieving the core purpose of the story. Who cares about one aspect of a failure?

Its so amusing to see people lauding some aspects of failures as being superior to the hero since that is all they can really do to try to denigrate the child of prophecy.

You have people arguing about how Madara has a grater intellect compared to the hero. What was the outcome of this supposed intellect? Oh right, the utterly moronic, self contradictory moon-eye-nonsense plan. Now, we have this supposed leadership of another failure who is a primary architect of the current joke of a system.

If people find solace in their weak attempts to downplay the hero in favour of useless aspects of the failures before him, they are welcome to do so. Really as the story draws to a conclusion and the hero succeeds where those before him have failed, what else do these haters have to rely upon.


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## BiNexus (Mar 6, 2013)

Bird of Paradise said:


> I always had faith in Naruto as a solid character.  The only time he faltered, which seriously disappointed me to the point of liking him a notch less then I did, was because how many times did he say his opponent should give up on him giving up *before he actually gave up and started to reach out to Obito*.


He. Did. Not. *That was Hinata's hand.*


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## Ben B (Mar 6, 2013)

Compare the average child or teenager in England vs in Afghanistan; would you really expect the dreams, interests, ideals etc of the two to be alike? Obviously not because the social environments of the two are completely different. The shinobi world has come a long way since Hashiramas time and the state of affairs really is that different.

People are also jumping the gun here, we have yet to see what Naruto is going to do about the whole cycle of hatred problem. Lets wait and see what he does before making premature conclusions like Naruto is never going to surpass Hashirama etc.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Melas said:


> Discussing such qualities outside the context of the results of the application is flawed.



It is not.

The point of this thread is that Hashirama is showing more weighted and concrete ideas than Naruto ever did (and thus is a better leader, at least in these aspects).

Pretty easy to understand.


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## Melas (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> It is not.
> 
> The point of this thread is that Hashirama is showing more weighted and concrete ideas than Naruto ever did (and thus is a better leader, at least in these aspects).
> 
> Pretty easy to understand.



Of course it is.

Ideas in vacuum are useless unless they provide results. His ideas could be as concrete as you like, his system resulted in the current disaster the world faces. You might value such "leadership" and you are welcome to.

It does not mean such failed ideas have any value. Any joker can come up ideas, so? 

I don't care about ideas of failures, perhaps you do.

Who cares about a great leader when his system produces disaster? As I mentioned, Hitler was a great leader, so what?


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## Bellamy The Hyena (Mar 6, 2013)

Rome wasn't built in a day.


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## Sarry (Mar 6, 2013)

Melas said:


> I suppose such repetitive and vacuous threads are apt for the current set of these waste of chapters.
> 
> Discussing such qualities outside the context of the results of the application is flawed. What was the outcome of such leadership? Superficial attempts that barely dented the cycle of hatred and resulted in the formation of Akatsuki and unleashing of the Juubi. Wonderful leadership, that.
> 
> ...



The prophecy crap again?
It was applied to Minato, Nagato and then Naruto. Being a 'child of the prophecy' means jack shit.

All of Naruto's 'successes' in uniting the world came from Tobi/Madara. Otherwise, Naruto's words wouldn't have even reached ninjas outside of Konoha or Suna. The Gokage would still be bickering and infighting, had Tobi refrained from sending Sasuke to their meeting. And Naruto would have been remained in hiding with Bee in that island. 
Naruto's 'genius' is overblown here, in this forum at least. 

As well, Naruto's method as of late does not differ from Madara's plan that much. Both want their opinion/love to be shared by others. 
The only difference is that Madara doesn't have empathy, at least the older defeated Madara. 
So far, Naruto's been listening to people, beating them and then try to convert them to his point of view.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Melas said:


> Of course it is.
> 
> Ideas in vacuum are useless unless they provide results. His ideas could be as concrete as you like, his system resulted in the current disaster the world faces. You might value such "leadership" and you are welcome to.



Aside from the fact that his system wasn't the only cause of the current disaster, what you say is not relevant to the point.

Hashirama had more weighted and concrete ideas than Naruto: this is all what matters in this thread.


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## Melas (Mar 6, 2013)

Sarry said:


> The prophecy crap again?
> It was applied to Minato, Nagato and then Naruto. Being a 'child of the prophecy' means jack shit.
> 
> All of Naruto's 'successes' in uniting the world came from Tobi/Madara. Otherwise, Naruto's words wouldn't have even reached ninjas outside of Konoha or Suna.
> ...



Your prejudice and viased view about something meaning shit has no value in face of contradicting facts. Minato and Nagato failed at their shot at the title if at all it ever applied to them. Moreover, none of them got the seal of approval of the bijuus as the one RS prophecised about. You might revel in your ignorance, don't expect others to do so.

Naruto's success comes from who he is. His building of bonds has to do with him and no one else. He has been at it long before the joker villain duo emerged openly.

Moreover, joining together to fight a common enemy does not translate into a lasting alliance unless there are deeper bonds of understanding, which Naruto has been building since virtually the beginning on the manga.

The joker villain duo are merely enablers, tools of a temporary alliance that fastens the process.

When Naruto comes up with something similar to the idiotic, self-contradictory moon-nonsense plan, I might do more than laugh at your comparison to Madara.

If to you discussing is same as imposing your views by force comparable to brainwashing and enslavement, thats your problem.



blk said:


> Aside from the fact that his system wasn't the only cause of the current disaster, what you say is not relevant to the point.
> 
> Hashirama had more weighted and concrete ideas than Naruto: this is all what matters in this thread.



Who cares about "only cause"? The system before Hashi's one was also not the "only cause" for all the ills. The pertinent point is that his system and "idea" were not good enough to address the problems and his system resulted in the biggest disaster since the Juubi was last active.

Who are you to decide what matters in this thread? Once the thread is created, its in public domain. No one gets to decide what matters. If the premise of the thread if flawed, there is no obligation to restrict oneself to it.

Again, any joker can come up with "concrete" ideas, so?

Hitler was a great leader so?

Aspects of failures are of no value. Consequently, Hashi's supposed leadership is no no value since it only perpetuated the failures and resulted in even greater disasters.


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## Nitharad (Mar 6, 2013)

Naruto pales in comparison to almost anyone who isn't filler or hated/forgotten by Kishimoto.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Melas said:


> Who cares about "only cause"? The system before Hashi's one was also not the "only cause" for all the ills. The pertinent point is that his system and "idea" were not good enough to address the problems and his system resulted in the biggest disaster since the Juubi was last active.



Let's try to use this logic of switching the merit of an event.

The Juubi was revived under the system (which, to be fair, doesn't necessarily mean "because of") ideated by Hashirama, and same goes for the for the birth and the grow of Naruto.

From this perspective, Hashirama's system was succesfull.

However, i suggest you to stop to use this kind of logic.



> *Who are you to decide what matters in this thread?* Once the thread is created, its in public domain. No one gets to decide what matters. If the premise of the thread if flawed, there is no obligation to restrict oneself to it.



The OP establishes the topic of the thread (which is what i wrote to you).


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## BiNexus (Mar 6, 2013)

An analogy:

Two groups at a brokerage firm are given the task of devising a way of accruing more money, i.e. profit for the company. One group's leader has the best idea, in theory. Whereas the other group's leader chooses a more unconventional, even risky approach. In practice, the ideas of the first group's leader just simply don't work out, actually costing the company an egregious amount of money, whereas the unconventional approach does. What does this mean? Simply that both had leaders that got a group to follow their direction and their idea, but from different approaches. It should also be noted that the leader that wasn't able to deliver is held accountable and would probably be reprimanded, showing you results do matter. Just because an idea or concept seems concrete and sound in theory, does not necessarily make it great. It must be tested and evaluated to prove it can do what it puts forth.


Replace making money with fostering peace; Hashirama and Naruto with the two leaders, and voil?.


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## Melas (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Let's try to use this logic of switching the merit of an event.
> 
> The Juubi was revived under the system (which, to be fair, doesn't necessarily mean "because of") ideated by Hashirama, and same goes for the for the birth and the grow of Naruto.
> 
> ...



Entirely flawed line of reasoning.

So you switched from not the only cause to "under the system"?

When a system is established to address a broad issue and it not only fails but enhances the threat, it is not merely a matter on "under the system".

Hashi ideated a system that resulted in the release of the Juubi along with the deaths of thousands of people in this war even before that. The events transpired in the context of and as a result of the system he created.

His system gave birth to Obito, Nagato, even Madara in his current form separated from his clan.

Hashi's ideas had nothing to do with a person being born. Or are you arguing that he expected such a hero or planned for one?

By that logic, Hashi was also born in a system. Does that system get he credit for him or otherwise? How far does this chain go?

Hashi's perspective of what is success is irrelevant. He created a failed system. That's the idea that you praise.

You don't get to create a broad system and when it fails argue that things occurred that I couldn't account for. That's like being responsible for the safety of country and absolving your limitation in case of an attack you had not planned for.

Hashi's case is even worse, but even that is laughable. At best, his system was incapable of dealing with the likes of Akatsuki and Madara without an all out war and unleashing of the Juubi.



> The OP establishes the topic of the thread (which is what i wrote to you).



The topic is different than what matters as you put it previously.

As I mentioned, a flawed scope of the thread outside context is of little value in replying to it.


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## Shadow_fox (Mar 6, 2013)

Really, Hashirama was a genius for saying that every person should do what they can? That's practically what he said: that kids should do missions that they can, not what they can't. This is what I believe happened to his brother, they sent him on a mission he wasn't fit for and he died. 
 And a village where kids will study together, well since the parents are getting killed left and right, obviously the families taught the kids how to fight and they didn't have time at all to play together.

 Hashirama was a visionary, but not a genius. He just thought of solutions for kids of his time.
 How is it supperior from Naruto's way of self-control against Nagato? He stopped a cycle of hatred by just stopping himself from giving into hatred and asking "Why do we have to fight? Why do we have to leave hate and rage control our lives?" 

 For now, both of them came up with solutions to problems in their own times. The solutions are pretty radical for their times. 

 But when you compare the problems they are facing, Naruto is facing a war against people that deserve the title of gods.


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## Sarry (Mar 6, 2013)

Melas said:


> Your prejudice and viased view about something meaning shit has no value in face of contradicting facts. Minato and Nagato failed at their shot at the title if at all it ever applied to them. Moreover, none of them got the seal of approval of the bijuus as the one RS prophecised about. *You might revel in your ignorance, don't expect others to do so.*


Quite mature of you....


> *Naruto's success comes from who he is. His building of bonds has to do with him and no one else*. He has been at it long before the joker villain duo emerged openly.
> 
> Moreover, joining together to fight a common enemy does not translate into a lasting alliance unless there are deeper bonds of understanding, which Naruto has been building since virtually the beginning on the manga.
> 
> ...


Jiriaya regarded both Nagato and Minato to be the children of the prophecy, Raikage firmly believed that Minato was that child. It applied to both these characters directly. The whole "child of the prophecy" is just a title, as meaningless as "genius", or "dropout". That's why it means very little. 

Please! Naruto was beginning to walk the same path as Madara. He needed to be redirected multiple times already: Itachi, Hinata, Minato. He and Madara were no different in mentality. 

As for bonds...had it not for Tobi/Kabuto, Naruto would have remained hidden in that turtle, and he wouldn't have done as he well as he did so far. His recent successes are all dependent on Tobi. Yes, obviously, Naruto has to do his own work and work with people, otherwise he wouldn't have gone far in life. This still doesn't affect the fact that he's capitalizing on the alliance's reaction to Madara. It was not due to his bonds nor his prophecy that the alliance worked.

As for the Bijuu note...yeah, Naruto was the only one who could that as he as a bloody beast within him, so he could somewhat relate or at least BS it well enough. Had Minato been able to talk with Kyuubi, i am sure Minato would ahve done the equivalent.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Melas said:


> So you switched from not the only cause to "under the system"?



...So? I pointed out in the same line that "under the same system" doesn't necessarily equate to "because of".



> When a system is established to address a broad issue and it not only fails but enhances the threat, it is not merely a matter on "under the system".



Hashirama's system stopped the war between the clans, it was successful.

However, he couldn't possibly know that Madara was still alive and that this would have resulted in the creation of the Akatsuki and the resurrection of the Juubi; the system that he created wasn't meant to deal with these, nor it was their sole cause.



> Hashi's ideas had nothing to do with a person being born. Or are you arguing that he expected such a hero or planned for one?
> 
> By that logic, Hashi was also born in a system. Does that system get he credit for him or otherwise? How far does this chain go?



The conclusion is that no one is responsible for his actions (infact, better call them _reactions_), which is actually true. 
But as i said, is better to not use this logic for the sake of the discussion (this was the reason i did the example with the birth of Naruto, in the first place).



> You don't get to create a broad system and when it fails argue that things occurred that I couldn't account for. That's like being responsible for the safety of country and absolving your limitation in case of an attack you had not planned for.



The current disasters happened because of the inability of the leaders of the villages, and others shinobi, to stop the Akatsuki.




> The topic is different than what matters as you put it previously.



I said "what matters to the thread", which refers to the topic of it.


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## BiNexus (Mar 6, 2013)

Sarry said:


> [...]
> 
> As for bonds...had it not for Tobi/Kabuto, Naruto would have remained hidden in that turtle, and he wouldn't have done as he well as he did so far. His recent successes are all dependent on Tobi. Yes, obviously, Naruto has to do his own work and work with people, otherwise he wouldn't have gone far in life. This still doesn't affect the fact that he's capitalizing on the alliance's reaction to Madara. It was not due to his bonds nor his prophecy that the alliance worked.
> 
> [...]


Yeah, alliances do tend to work when there is a common enemy that must be reacted to; it's called the Balance of Power concept. However, once that enemy is gone, relations between the ninja villages are liable to deteriorate. For instance, United States, France, Britain, and the Soviet Union (now Russia), known as the Allies, fought on each others' side to balance against the Axis powers. However, from 1946-1991 (or at least thereabouts) the Soviet Union and the U.S. were locked in the Cold War,  It was essentially the Capitalistic views of the West against the Communist views of, predominantly, the Asian countries and the SU; between former allies.

Case in point, just because they're fighting a common enemy now, doesn't mean they'll put aside differences and there will be no struggles for power afterward. Let's not try to say Madara and Obito have done the majority of Naruto's job, because they haven't.


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## Melas (Mar 6, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Quite mature of you....



No problem.



> Jiriaya regarded both Nagato and Minato to be the children of the prophecy, Raikage firmly believed that Minato was that child. It applied to both these characters directly. The whole "child of the prophecy" is just a title, as meaningless as "genius", or "dropout". That's why it means very little.
> 
> Please! Naruto was beginning to walk the same path as Madara. He needed to be redirected multiple times already: Itachi, Hinata, Minato. He and Madara were no different in mentality.
> 
> ...



The fact that it was misapplied to other characters does not negate its significance. For instance on a much smaller scale and significance, I could call anybody I feel like the best player of world, that does not mean there isn't actually a best player or that it has no significance.

Again, when Naruto comes up with and attempts to execute a moronic plan for global enslavement against people's will while deluding himself, get back to me. Supposed course correction does not invalidate character development. Actions matter much more than thought, those too fleeting ones.

I have no interest in your speculations of what would have happened. The only relevant aspect is what has happened. Capitalizing on something to hasten the process does not mean it wouldn't have happened otherwise, nor does it lessen the credit for the ability to capitalize.

Again, the alliance is temporary, without something deeper it means nothing beyond the common threat. Our real world is full of examples of such temporary alliances.

Naruto's bonds with Tsunade, Gaara, B etc. who form the echelons of their respective villages have little to do the joker villain duo. 

Again, your speculation of what could have happened had Minato talked or not are good for fanfiction only. I am not interested in discussing that.



blk said:


> ...So? I pointed out in the same line that "under the same system" doesn't necessarily equate to "because of".



Do you enjoy selective quoting? I have noticed that trend with you.



> Hashirama's system stopped the war between the clans, it was successful.
> 
> However, he couldn't possibly know that Madara was still alive and that this would have resulted in the creation of the Akatsuki and the resurrection of the Juubi; the system that he created wasn't meant to deal with these, nor it was their sole cause.



His system created wars between groups of clans and ultimately leading to the biggest disaster since the times of RS. A great success.

You are again arguing from a flawed position. Ignorance on Hashi's part as to the scope of the problem is not a valid argument against his failure.

This is why I had argued earlier that his notion was so silly and superficial. He couldn't even foresee the consequent dangers. Its laughable when you then argue his system was concrete.

Again, refer to the security of the nation argument.



> The conclusion is that no one is responsible for his actions (infact, better call them _reactions_), which is actually true.
> But as i said, is better to not use this logic for the sake of the discussion (this was the reason i did the example with the birth of Naruto, in the first place).



Your analogy is entirely flawed.

People being born has nothing to do with a system.

Reactions or unforeseen actions to a system that is designed to achieve lofty goals has everything to do with the system.

Kindly address, how Obito, Nagato and Madara divorced from his clan are not products of this system.



> The current disasters happened because of the inability of the leaders of the villages, and others shinobi, to stop the Akatsuki.



Again, such excuses are meaningless. The flaws existed in the system itself. Why did this "concrete" idea not account for such contingencies?

This is even more laughable considering in his system he pit village againt another, powered them with bijuus and set the ground for war and continued chain of hatred. Not to mention, the creation of Madara divorced from his clan.

When you create a system that cannot even foresee situations, let alone begin to address them, you don't get to blame others.

Also, the logic is so easy to reverse. If the failures are because of failures of others, so are the successes. You don't get to credit yourself when it suits you and pass the buck otherwise.

Heck, could he even prevent wars when he was alive?



> I said "what matters to the thread", which refers to the topic of it.



As I said, no one is under obligation to limit themselves to flawed concepts a topic may denote. You or no one gets to say what matters or what does not.


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## Shadow_fox (Mar 6, 2013)

Each era has their heroes and villains. Sometimes the line between good and evil is vague and thin. But one without the other can't change the world. 

 It's not a matter of which is better, each age grows its own heroes and villains. Can we really compare Ghenghis Khan with Napoleon? Each era has it's own weapons, people, mindsets, lessons, etc. which influence the its heroes, leaders, wars, etc.


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## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

Re: Hashirama's plan was a failure (as claimed by several posters):

It was not. It is work in progress. Here's some major successes:

- Naruto's generation grew up without war
- two villages, Kumo and Konoha, were able to come up with perfect Jinchuuriki, meaning the bijuu system was progressing, and eventually the balance of power will stabilize
- ninjas are taught to kill their emotions and accept death of comrades as part of duty to the village, leading to less clan feuds, therefore less personal hatred

The problem of children dying on the battlefield, the one he was trying to solve, has been minimized by Hashirama's system already. *Hashi had a problem to solve, and he did it by directing people.* That's leadership.

Naruto has to deal with a new problem: powerful people who want to destroy the system because it has concentrated its hatred on them. But how has he dealt with it so far? He decides, personally, to not give in to hatred and kill these people. But this is not leadership, it's *personal strength*. At best this can become leadership by example, but Naruto is not consciously thinking about even that. He's just lucky that Gaara took notice and became a speaker for his ways.

He will succeed at peace, because he has a good team that can do the thinking for him. But as another post previously said, he doesn't rely on his team either. 



BiNexus said:


> An analogy:
> 
> Two groups at a brokerage firm are given the task of devising a way of accruing more money, i.e. profit for the company. One group's leader has the best idea, in theory. *Whereas the other group's leader doesn't choose any approach but just firefights through each day.*



I think this is a more accurate analogy.


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## blk (Mar 6, 2013)

Melas said:


> Do you enjoy selective quoting? I have noticed that trend with you.



Well, i quote only the things that are relevant.



> His system created wars between groups of clans and ultimately leading to the biggest disaster since the times of RS. A great success.



This is also fault of the shinobi themselves, do not pretend that it's just because of the system.

The resurrection of the Juubi did not happened only because of it.



> Your analogy is entirely flawed.
> 
> People being born has nothing to do with a system.
> 
> ...



Of course, _one_ of the reasons for why they went crazy, is the system.

But then again, this is like saying that the system is one of the reasons for why Naruto was born, was grow and formed his resolve, like it is now.
Infact, without Konoha we have no certainty that Kushina and Minato would have encountered and gave birth to Naruto, or that the latter would have grown in the way that he did.



> Again, such excuses are meaningless. The flaws existed in the system itself. Why did this "concrete" idea not account for such contingencies?



There are no systems that can be perfect, not even the friendship solution of Naruto is.
The failure of a system depends on many things, not only on the system itself.



> Also, the logic is so easy to reverse. If the failures are because of failures of others, so are the successes. You don't get to credit yourself when it suits you and pass the buck otherwise.



Are you saying that the leaders of the villages had nothing to do with what happened? Because this is clearly incorrect.



The truth is that, at the end, you can't attribute the success or the failure of something to anyone.
Therefore, it is flawed to argue Naruto and Hashirama's ideas in the context of the results.




> As I said, no one is under obligation to limit themselves to flawed concepts a topic may denote. You or no one gets to say what matters or what does not.



No one is under any obligation, i was merely pointing out that this discussion is not relevant to topic.


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## Melas (Mar 6, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> Re: Hashirama's plan was a failure (as claimed by several posters):
> 
> It was not. It is work in progress. Here's some major successes:
> 
> ...



By that logic everything is a work in progress and Hashi himself was just a part of the process of achieving peace. Pointing out tidbits of supposed successes will do little to gloss over the gaping flaws of th system.

One generation grows without war only to be thrown into perhaps the worst war ever. What a great success, indeed.

What does perfect jinchuriki have to do with peace? If they so wish, they can still be used for destruction.

So killing emotions is good? You would agree with Danzo then, perhaps. Besides, his system did nothing to address the cycle of hatred.

So Hashi was never aiming for peace? He was limited to only the children problem. In such a case, he is not even worth discussing. If he was aiming to attain peace, he is an utter failure considering the state of the world.

His "leadership" was devoid of any real understanding of the problems. He merely gave directions without even contemplating the possible threats, if you wish to call that abject failure leadership so be it. As I mentioned, Hitler was a great leader too.

What is there save leadership by example? Is there a better kind? How can you ask others to overcome their hatred when you can't do it yourself?

Gaara became what? Who is leading this fight? Where is Gaara now? To claim that Naruto needs someone to expand his ways when he himself is the perfect example is highly flawed. What did Gaara help Naruto achieve that he could not himself?

Even if he has a team, so? Are leaders not supposed to have teams? Did Hashi do everything himself? Its not like he had the backing of his village or clan etc. What are you talking about?



blk said:


> Well, i quote only the things that are relevant.



To me it seems that you don't quote things you don't wish to address. Well, others can see our posts and decide.



> This is also fault of the shinobi themselves, do not pretend that it's just because of the system.
> 
> The resurrection of the Juubi did not happened only because of it.



First, Hashi himself pit villages against another and powered them with super weapons. Thats all him, directly.

Moving on, by that logic, any "success" of Hashi is also the success of the shinobi's and not of Hashi. Flawed argument.

Nothing is absolute. Even the system Hashi changed was also not entirely responsible. So? It does not mean there was significant blame upon the system.

Hashi's system resulted in the Juubi by actions of people directly influenced and motivated by consequences of his system. At best as a result of problem his system did not even begin to address.

Either case, the notion of "concrete" idea in such a state is silly.



> Of course, _one_ of the reasons for why they went crazy, is the system.
> 
> But then again, this is like saying that the system is one of the reasons for why Naruto was born, was grow and formed his resolve, like it is now.
> Infact, without Konoha we have no certainty that Kushina and Minato would have encountered and gave birth to Naruto, or that the latter would have grown in the way that he did.



The system caused such reactions, it bears responsibility for it. One or more reason is not pertinent. The system cannot absolve itself.

Again, your analogy of someone being born because of the system is entirely flawed and not analogous. You can continue to perpetuate this line of reasoning. It is not going to make it any more relevant.

Your speculations of what could have happened if the villages did not form are irrelevant. Please stick to what has actually transpired.

There is no certainty with any sort of speculation. I could argue that things would have been better without Hashi's ideas.

Again, kindly address Obito, Nagato and Madara divorced from his clan.



> There are no systems that can be perfect, not even the friendship solution of Naruto is.
> The failure of a system depends on many things, not only on the system itself.



Who argued perfection? Hashi's system is a joke. To even bring up perfection is laughable in such a context.

No one argued otherwise. The system needs to have mechanisms to handle the problems it creates. Hashi had none. It was so silly its laughable.

TO make matters worse, it enhanced problems by perpetuating the cycle of hatred and culminating in the Juubi.



> Are you saying that the leaders of the villages had nothing to do with what happened? Because this is clearly incorrect.



The villages act in the system created by Hashi. The responsibility is distributed between the system itself and the stakeholders. One does not absolve the other.

Moreover, considering that the system prepared ground for war between villages that resulted in Nagato, Obito etc., the system has significant degree of blame.



> The truth is that, at the end, you can't attribute the success or the failure of something to anyone.
> Therefore, it is flawed to argue Naruto and Hashirama's ideas in the context of the results.



What is this supposed truth based upon?

You have been assigning "success" by reduced deaths (a flawed notion) to Hashi, now the sudden turn when faced with failures?

The architect and implementors of any system bear significant responsibility for the consequences of said system.

That's like saying having a system of imperialism leading to revolt has nothing to do with the system. Absurd.

Ideas are to be judged in the context of their results. There is no reason to exempt the current discussion for the same.

You can judge ideas in a vacuum devoid of the results they produce, don't expect anyone else to concur.



> No one is under any obligation, i was merely pointing out that this discussion is not relevant to topic.



It is entirely pertinent as the concept of the thread is flawed. Even otherwise, no one gets t determine what matters and what does not as you suggested.


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## Ben B (Mar 6, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> Naruto has to deal with a new problem: powerful people who want to destroy the system because it has concentrated its hatred on them. But how has he dealt with it so far? He decides, personally, to not give in to hatred and kill these people. But this is not leadership, it's *personal strength*. At best this can become leadership by example, but Naruto is not consciously thinking about even that. He's just lucky that Gaara took notice and became a speaker for his ways.



The problem is that Narutos problems throughout most of the manga have been personal and are not on the macro scale as it were in the epoch of Hashirama. Pain was the very first macro-problem, a problem of the system or the state of affairs of the shinobi world (like child soldiers were) that Naruto faced in the manga, being a product of it. When Naruto dealt with Pain, this was made clear and he did not come up with a direct answer, his answer was a reaffirmation of his (and once Nagatos) resolve to find an answer. 

The answer that Naruto will find will bring peace to the world, we yet to see him find that answer (he is currently preoccupied immediate threats) so I think the comparison between them at this point is pretty premature.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Because it is more accurate.



Says who? You're basically asking me to accept the parts of a definition of leadership that you like. Well, how about no.



> This thread speaks about a _precise_ sets of leaderships skills that Hashirama has, and Naruto has not.
> The ability to reach peace through friendship, _has nothing to do with the particular skills that are discussed in this thread_.



This thread speaks about leadership and Naruto surpassing Hashirama as a leader, period. 




> The only relevant fact is that Gaara TNJ the army.
> If we apply your logic, then Naruto was born only because of certain circumstances that wouldn't exist without Hashirama.



Lol, no. The relevant facts are that Gaara wouldn't be Kazekage nor have that outlook in life had it not been for Naruto. He even said so during the speech, which you would have realized if you took the hate glasses off.



> If there are less shinobi, it would easier to organize a stable alliance after the war, and control/change the mind of the potential dissidents (that there will hardly be, since the whole army was already TNJ and the remaining shinobi are only a fraction of the ones that there were before).



Why would the villages having less shinobi make an alliance easier?





> I didn't say anything of this sort.



Yet you implied it.



> However, i repeat: the cycle of hatred doesn't exist anymore, so winning this war will not alimentate it.



It does. Sasuke, Madara and Obito say hi.



> Naruto's task to bring peace is facilitated, since the current war serves only to establish _who will rule, and how, the future peaceful world_ (Obito and Madara through Moon Eye Plan, or Naruto through the alliance).



Naruto facilitates the possibility of peace through his actions, more like.


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## BiNexus (Mar 6, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> Re: Hashirama's plan was a failure (as claimed by several posters):
> 
> It was not. It is work in progress. Here's some major successes:
> 
> - Naruto's generation grew up without war


Initially, yes. Was there strife and bad blood that manifested in many people losing their lives needlessly? Yes. Many of those innocents? Unfortunately, yes.



> - two villages, Kumo and *Konoha*, were *able to come up with perfect Jinchuuriki*, meaning the bijuu system was progressing, and eventually the balance of power will stabilize


Konoha, as a collective, did not assist Naruto in becoming a perfect Jinchuuriki. Naruto assisted Naruto in becoming a perfect Jinchuuriki. 

Bee was a perfect jin because he had someone, Ei, to assist him through it and be there for him, something Minato stressed was important. Not to mention Bee's attitude also helped. In both cases, the villages did nothing to bring about the perfect jins.



> - ninjas are taught to kill their emotions and accept death of comrades as part of duty to the village, leading to less clan feuds, therefore less personal hatred


While I agree this is probably less pronounced than it was before, we have seen cases where there was a clan feud (Hyuuga and Kumo); we've seen more where people still hold that resentment for the killer (Gaara's aunt, the guy that tried to kill Bee) and, of course, Obito. But I agree it has probably been lessened.



> The problem of children dying on the battlefield, the one he was trying to solve, has been minimized by Hashirama's system already. Hashi had a problem to solve, and he did it by directing people. That's leadership.


Children still die on the battlefield; children are still affected by village skirmishes; children are still used as tools of war. This hasn't been changed as much as you think.



> Naruto has to deal with a new problem: powerful people who want to destroy the system because it has concentrated its hatred on them. But how has he dealt with it so far? *He decides, personally, to not give in to hatred and kill these people*. But this is not leadership, it's personal strength. At best this can become leadership by example, but Naruto is not consciously thinking about even that. He's just lucky that Gaara took notice and became a speaker for his ways.


Here's how you bastardized my analogy:


> Whereas the other group's leader doesn't choose any approach but just firefights through each day.


So, which is it? Does he firefight all day? Or does he not give into hatred and kill people? And, if you can't respond to the supposed faults in the original quote, don't bastardize it because you think it's witty. 

Ever heard that the best leaders don't ask for it, and are simply put into that role? There are many qualities that make a leader; the strength and confidence to embolden people to follow you is one. What if Naruto exudes personal strength through hardships and experiences thus far? The people around him are following him willingly because they feel he is someone that is trustworthy and _worth believing in_. 



> He will succeed at peace, because he has a good team that can do the thinking for him. But as another post previously said, he doesn't rely on his team either.


He will succeed at peace because he's the main character, let's not delude ourselves. That doesn't mean he doesn't have the qualities of a leader. That doesn't mean, simply because his way of doing things is not akin to a realistic norm, he is a bad leader.


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## Bontakun (Mar 6, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> Here's how you bastardized my analogy:
> 
> So, which is it? Does he firefight all day? Or does he not give into hatred and kill people? And, if you can't respond to the supposed faults in the original quote, don't bastardize it because you think it's witty.
> 
> ...



First of all, that's just my way of discussing analogies, so apologies if it came out offensive or merely trying to be witty. That being said it still holds. Deciding not to hate, personally, does not make you a leader (in the sense of having a plan and influencing people). So Naruto can make that personal decision and live by it, but when it comes to influencing others, he has no way of getting them to stop hating, too. He's only responding to each person's hate as it appears. That's what I mean by firefighting.

Using Hashirama as an example, this would be like Hashirama deciding he will personally not kill enemy children, and save as many children in battle as he can when they appear. That would be the Naruto approach. Instead, Hashirama created a system in which child deaths are lessened. The system looks after itself, and lasts even after his death. Much more effective.


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## Kage (Mar 6, 2013)

Hashirama is dead and his vision was never fully realized. Things are likely to be different with Naruto, who is not going to fail.

This shouldn't be so hard to comprehend.


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## BiNexus (Mar 6, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> First of all, that's just my way of discussing analogies, so apologies if it came out offensive or merely trying to be witty. That being said it still holds. Deciding not to hate, personally, does not make you a leader (in the sense of having a plan and influencing people). So Naruto can make that personal decision and live by it, but when it comes to influencing others, he has no way of getting them to stop hating, too. He's only responding to each person's hate as it appears. That's what I mean by firefighting.


Ok, so let's say his personal choice doesn't directly correlate to his leadership skills. What about his charisma, open-mindedness, compassion, empathy, attentiveness, trustworthiness, honesty, approachability, strong will, drive, et al? Should we just bin those? Trash them because he's unconventional? Those are all leadership qualities, I'm sure you can agree. 

On the matter of his personal choice to try to understand rather than kill: as the one to lead the ninjas, he would lead by example; setting the standard for peace, if you will.



> Using Hashirama as an example, this would be like Hashirama deciding he will personally not kill enemy children, and save as many children in battle as he can when they appear. That would be the Naruto approach. Instead, Hashirama created a system in which child deaths are lessened. The system looks after itself, and lasts even after his death. Much more effective.


Child deaths have seemingly not been lessened however. We have nothing in the manga that tells us this. We haven't seen much of the 1st and 2nd shinobi wars, but we've seen flashbacks of the 3rd and we are currently in the 4th. We've seen Obito, Rin and Kakashi fight (from the Leaf no less) and carry out dangerous missions, even with the mentality of sacrificing teammates for the sake of the mission. We have nothing that really tells us that it is lessened, just that it is more, for want of a better term, orderly. Not to mention all the people we've met along the way that are, really, killing machines in children form. 

Edit: Naruto's way will work _because_ it is unconventional. _Because_ it is different. _Because_ it is radical. That's the rationale I can see Kishimoto giving. 

And, ok, no offense taken.


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## Lelouch71 (Mar 6, 2013)

That's why I hate this CoP garbage. Naruto should just be some kid who want to be hokage so he can be the boss or whatever instead of ninja Jesus. Hashirama is more believable as a leader at the age of 7-8 than a 16-17 years old Naruto. And that's sad.


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 6, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> Naruto will never surpass Hashirama now.
> 
> As a kid, Hashirama was already thinking of dividing missions into ranks to protect children from danger. He already knew the way to stop fighting is to form an alliance with your rivals.
> 
> ...





How many times am I going to have to bring this same idea up? I've said this in at least one way or another in the past 3 chapters' threads.

Naruto is going to surpass Hashirama because he's going to set the wheels in motion to PUT AN END TO THE NINJA SYSTEM.

Hashirama set up a system that put fewer children in harms' way. His way resulted in less war.

LESS violence.

Naruto's way is going to put an end to children having to kill.

Like it or not, the shinobi system is designed to turn children into killers.


Watch the anime Now & Then, Here & There. If you can put up with the crappy dub, the entirety of the 13 episode series is on youtube.

Let me directly quote what TVTropes says about this series:

*Spoiler*: __ 




 "NTHT (as the title is often shortened) takes the old anime plot of being transported to another world and turns it on its head. Shu, our hero, is on his way home from kendo practice one day when he sees a strange girl sitting atop a smokestack. Curious, he goes up to meet her. The girl's name is Lala Ru and as Shu is introducing himself and talking to her two strange machines warp in and attack them. Shu attempts to defend the girl but is easily brushed aside and Lala Ru is taken. Shu renews his attack as Lala Ru calls for help but everyone ends up getting transported back to where the machines came from.

The normal conventions of this genre decree that the alternate world be a cool, mildly dangerous place where the transportee soon hooks up with some cool friends and a protector/mentor who explains the new world and guides our hero on his great quest to rescue the damsel...

Not this time.Shu is transported to a dying desert planet orbiting a bloated sun in the early stages of nova. Only the worst of humanity has survived this crucible and Shu has been dumped alone into the heart of this hell. Shu tries to behave as the hero would, ever optimistic that good will always triumph and that if he tries hard enough he will win and restore goodness to the world. Only, things don't work that way in Hellywood, the battle fortress ruled by an insane king served by a super-efficient minion who inflicts his every demented whim on a helpless population.

Daichi pulls no punches in the thirteen episodes of this TV series and gives us no let-up. In this world, children are the targets of atrocities committed by other children. Neighboring villages are raided for vital supplies and young boys to be conscripted into the insane king Hamdo's army. Women and young girls are captured to be passed around to and raped by Hellywood soldiers as a reward for good performance in the hope that they will become pregnant and provide future soldiers and breeders. This latter fate befalls a young American girl named Sara, who is mistakenly grabbed because of her resemblance to Lala Ru. Indeed, a couple episodes in the middle of the series focus entirely on her story, not Shu's."






Why did I even bring that series up? Because I think it is the perfect companion piece to Naruto.

The main character, Shuzo Matsutani, is very much cut from the same cloth that Naruto is. Akitaroh Daichi based this anime off the Rwandan genocide, and imagine that Shu is in a world like that, with no powers, abilities, or special weapons of any kind.

It opened my eyes as to why the ninja system has to go.

Naruto is going to do away with it.

Seriously, watch this anime. It will put Naruto as a series into a brand new perspective for you, I guarantee it.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 6, 2013)

Lelouch71 said:


> That's why I hate this CoP garbage. Naruto should just be some kid who want to be hokage so he can be the boss or whatever instead of ninja Jesus. Hashirama is more believable as a leader at the age of 7-8 than a 16-17 years old Naruto. And that's sad.



This.

We all know Naruto will succeed and change the world in some illogical, unbelievable magical way that disregards human nature because he is the Child of Prophecy and nothing more.

Naruto will succeed and be a "better leader" because of shitty writing.

That's it.


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## Euraj (Mar 7, 2013)

Dafuq? How can Hashirama's 60-100 year system that has brought the destruction and death be allowed to be "a work in progress" but Naruto's leadership skills cannot? Keep in mind, Naruto has only become aware of the problems with the Ninja System since the Pain fight, which may seem long to us, but hasn't been that long in the story. Hashirama has always been aware of the problem because he was given Naruto's dilemna earlier in his life. 

Don't be retarded and say that he won't surpass Hashiram and come up with a better solution. He was prophesied to be the _the harbinger of a revolution_. As if being the main character wasn't enough.

Still, I tend to believe in the end, Obito will have done the most to unify the Ninja World.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 7, 2013)

Euraj said:


> Dafuq? How can Hashirama's 60-100 year system that has brought the destruction and death be allowed to be "a work in progress" but Naruto's leadership skills cannot? Keep in mind, *Naruto has only become aware of the problems with the Ninja System since the Pain fight*, which may seem long to us, but hasn't been that long in the story. Hashirama has always been aware of the problem because he was given Naruto's dilemna earlier in his life.
> 
> Don't be retarded and say that he won't surpass Hashiram and come up with a better solution. He was prophesied to be the _the harbinger of a revolution_. As if being the main character wasn't enough.
> 
> Still, I tend to believe in the end, Obito will have done the most to unify the Ninja World.



Land of Waves arc.


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## Chibason (Mar 7, 2013)

Naruto will finish what Shodai started...

...but, at this point, it really does seem like it would be impossible to be a better 'leader' than the first Hokage.


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## Drums (Mar 7, 2013)

Naruto may not have a tactic or not know how to go about his plan, unlike Hashi, but if you think about it, its Naruto who has the better idea. He wants to unite everyone in the narutoverse under peace whilst Hashi's plans included mostly and just Konoha(if I'm not mistaken) and as such Konoha, while having peace_ inside _it, was bound to get involved in wars with other villages sooner or later and kids among others would continue to die as a result, either way( as we've later on seen). Even the school for shinobi kids is in fact enforcing the current shinobi system, because it's basically preparing kids to learn how to defend their village and thus probably join in wars later on, other missions aside.


Naruto's the one who sees the bigger picture. Hashi had good intentions and he thought he was doing the right thing, given the circumstances of his time, and partially he did. But all he achieved was prevent konoha clans from killing each other. He didnt manage to  wholy avoid wars. But the shinobi system involves all of the narutoverse, not just Konoha
and if they want peace, the system needs to be broken in all of it.

In the end, I guess I admire how Hashi knew exactly how to go about his plan and it kind of lets me down at times how Naruto has no idea about what he has to do about his. But if you think about it, achieving world wide peace is in fact an unrealistic plan so it's kind of normal that one wouldnt know how to go about it. Atm all Naruto knows is he has to persist. But given this is a fictional world and he's the main character, I think he probably will achieve his goal in the end.

That said, in terms of planning and strategy Hashi takes the first place. Naruto comes second but mostly because of the nature of his plan.
In terms of ideology, Naruto comes first. But I guess in the end it depends on what you consider a good leader.


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## blk (Mar 7, 2013)

Melas said:


> First, Hashi himself pit villages against another and powered them with super weapons. Thats all him, directly.
> 
> Moving on, by that logic, any "success" of Hashi is also the success of the shinobi's and not of Hashi. Flawed argument.
> 
> ...



Ok, let's stop this farse of arguing in the context of the results.

Hashirama wasn't responsible for what happened, nor his system was, nor the shinobi who lived under it.

Responsibility doesn't exist, and thus an argument based on the results is flawed, because you can't attribute the merit of certain results to anyone.



> The system caused such reactions, it bears responsibility for it. One or more reason is not pertinent. The system cannot absolve itself.



The system, which is itself a reaction and therefore not responsible for its consequences, is only one of the causes for the current situation.
Take away any other circumstance and the outcome would be different.



> Again, your analogy of someone being born because of the system is entirely flawed and not analogous. You can continue to perpetuate this line of reasoning. It is not going to make it any more relevant.



Explain why it is flawed, just saying that it is will not make it so.



> Your speculations of what could have happened if the villages did not form are irrelevant. Please stick to what has actually transpired.
> 
> There is no certainty with any sort of speculation. I could argue that things would have been better without Hashi's ideas.



So? doesn't change the fact that Naruto was born and grow just because of certain circumstances (and the system is one of them).
He is merely a reaction of other reactions, therefore he has no merit for what he is doing.



> Again, kindly address Obito, Nagato and Madara divorced from his clan.



I already said that the system was one of the reasons for why they went crazy.



> What is this supposed truth based upon?



Based on the fact that you can't attribute the merit of a consequence to anyone.

The only fact that nothing is a consequence of itself, renders nonsensical the notion that someone can have the merit of something.

Your entire argument is flawed.

You shouldn't use this line of reasoning based on the results.







Pirao said:


> Says who? You're basically asking me to accept the parts of a definition of leadership that you like. Well, how about no.



I'm not saying this, i'm saying that i'm not going to accept a simplistic definition of the concept, which is not simple in the first place.



> This thread speaks about leadership and Naruto surpassing Hashirama as a leader, period.



Yes, and Hashirama is better than Naruto in regard to the mentioned leadership skills.




> Lol, no. The relevant facts are that Gaara wouldn't be Kazekage nor have that outlook in life had it not been for Naruto. He even said so during the speech, which you would have realized if you took the hate glasses off.



So, you are trying to switch the merit of Gaara's actions to Naruto.

Let's apply this logic to Naruto then. Why is Naruto like he is? Because of countless circumstances that vary from events, to people. And why this events happened, and these people influenced Naruto like they did? Because of an even greater number of events and people.

Yeah, at the end you can't attribute the merit of a result to anyone.



> Why would the villages having less shinobi make an alliance easier?



Because less people mean less potential dissidents, less exchange of conflicting opinion, and less conflicting actions with the objective of the alliance.
Basically, the brainwashing via TNJ would be easier.



> It does. Sasuke, Madara and Obito say hi.



You said it: they are the only remaining opposition to the alliance (Sasuke's role is still not certain, though), and they don't have any significant number of followers, therefore their defeat will not alimentate the hate any further.
The creation of the alliance defeated the cycle of hatred already.



> Naruto facilitates the possibility of peace through his actions, more like.



How?


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## Raventhal (Mar 7, 2013)

Hashirama's again is not a failure.  The reality is that certain compromises have to be made to ensure protection of the village.  If not using children on missions and battle put your village at risk you will have to make that concession.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 7, 2013)

The Bandwagon is Strong. Makin alliances that eventually breakdown is better than befriending enemies & sincerely understanding each other? When anybody does for Hashirama what Neji, Nagato, Konan & countless others have done, then you can speak to me about leadership, lmao.

Naruto's been doin his thing since da series began. He OHKO'd the 3rd Hokage to get a scroll, got strategies to troll Zabuza & save Kakashi, he's got Jiraiya to train him, he trains the next Hokage candidate, & has a Monument dedicated to him, saves the Hokage candidate & defends the village from a Bijuu all by the age of 13 lol. & people wanna talk about Leadership? Lmao


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## dwade (Mar 7, 2013)

Believing dat hype is not good.


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## principito (Mar 7, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> It's a work in progress guys. It's a huge improvement from the old system. About as good as you can ask for from any leader IMO.
> 
> Now Naruto, he's not thinking about any of that at all. It's not even his PLAN to brainwash people into worshipping him. He has no plan! God save the ninja world!



I dont think you are right.....

Who is a better leader? ghandi or Lincoln or Guevara or whoever?

I think leaders come as the situation demands. 

In a world with NO system, a system needed to be created, what Hashirama did.

In a world where the system is so strong and people are dying by the system, the system needs to be fought.... what Naruto does.


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## hokage5522 (Mar 7, 2013)

Rios said:


> He ultimately failed. I am not trying to defend Naruto(lol) but he has the right idea. Brainwash people into worshipping you instead of trusting them with your bijuu.



Yes. but at least hasirama was working on the problems, naruto was about chasing hokage and  gaining new justu to impress sakura for the most part, hardly the beginings of a great leader. Until the nageto fight naruto had not even thought about the big picture. Nageto  put the qustions to him that naruto hadnt even thought to ask, and here is hashirami working with madara to not only ask the tough qustion but come up with a answer. You can bark about how it failed but at least that were working on  it,  as opposed to naruto who wasnt even thinking about it.


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## BiNexus (Mar 7, 2013)

hokage5522 said:


> Yes. but at least hasirama was working on the problems, naruto was about chasing hokage and  gaining new justu to impress sakura for the most part, hardly the beginings of a great leader.


Solutions to problems are inherently reactionary. A solution is not required when there is no problem to address or correct. Why should a 13 year old growing up in a time of peace and relative prosperity want to change anything in a system? Whereas Hashirama and Madara grew up in a time of chaos, confusion and loss. That's like trying to compare the thought processes of a child living in a relatively well off neighbourhood in North America (let's say) to one living in the war torn Arab states, like Syria or Iraq, or to the children living during, and in the wake of, the Rwandan genocide.  


> Until the nageto fight naruto had not even thought about the big picture. Nageto  put the qustions to him that naruto hadnt even thought to ask,


Naruto was blind to the world at large and it's atrocities. For the majority of his life, he has witnessed the peace and tranquility in his village and has, for all intents and purposes, been oblivious to anything outside of _that_ "world". Along his journey, which started with "omg letz find sauceke!!!", his eyes have been opened, figuratively speaking. While he is still determined to get Sasuke back, his outlook on that even changing and maturing, he is much more concerned with what you call the bigger picture; the problem with the world at large. 



> and here is hashirami working with madara to not only ask the tough qustion but come up with a answer. You can bark about how it failed but at least that were working on  it,  as opposed to naruto who wasnt even thinking about it.


It would be erroneous to say that he hadn't thought about it prior to then; it would be more correct to say that we haven't seen him actively pursue a solution until then. 

And again, solutions are reactive things. Let's try to look at this in the context of the characters.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 7, 2013)

Naruto's body

Looks like Leadership to me.

Please don't me show you the LONG list of examples. He's got QUITE the Resume.

FYI:

Hashirama's Ninja Village System: Pein GG CST'n Konoha

Naruto Ninja Saviour System: Nagato RT'n Konoha Back To Life

One has SUPER Destructive outcomes & One has a Neutral & Positive outcome.


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## Euraj (Mar 7, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Land of Waves arc.


Ha, no. Knowing ninja life sucks and being given an understanding of the actual dilemna, where it comes from, and why it hasn't been fixed is another thing. There's a reason why Naruto was looking so confounded when Pain was talking to him. He legitimately thought that just killing the people that do you wrong was the way to go, but when he met Nagato, proved that he then knew otherwise. Hashirama was aware of this issue when he was a child, and by the time he was a full-fledged adult, actually had the means to put his money where his mouth was.

Naruto is still a kid, coming out a situation where he was disrespected by the majority of his village. Hashirama had years to adjust his idea, and has had around a century to give it a chance to work. Now, we're trying to shoot down Naruto before he's even been given the opportunity to offer a solution. How can he _lead_ people to a solution that he hasn't even discovered yet? 

He's already fucked Madara's plan by non-violently removing Rinne Tensei from Obito's hands, and taming the Kyuubi. Give the kid a break and wait.


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## Hatakyumo (Mar 7, 2013)

Naruto will never be better leader than Hashirama. That man was a true leader. Narut ois his pale imitation.
But Naruto will dismantle ninja system, bring love and peace somehow and make everyone understand and love each other because he is Messiah and Kishi said so. Because Naruto is in da house, peace will come and suddenly all people will not want to fight any more. That is the privilege of being a Messiah!


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## Danzio (Mar 8, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> the speed of the thrust
> 
> Looks like Leadership to me.
> 
> ...





So true. Naruto's charisma is so pimp-strong he managed to convert some of the  most  evil characters in the series, with words alone.The most important character trait    for a great leader.


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## hokage5522 (Mar 8, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> Solutions to problems are inherently reactionary. A solution is not required when there is no problem to address or correct. Why should a 13 year old growing up in a time of peace and relative prosperity want to change anything in a system? Whereas Hashirama and Madara grew up in a time of chaos, confusion and loss. That's like trying to compare the thought processes of a child living in a relatively well off neighbourhood in North America (let's say) to one living in the war torn Arab states, like Syria or Iraq, or to the children living during, and in the wake of, the Rwandan genocide.
> 
> Naruto was blind to the world at large and it's atrocities. For the majority of his life, he has witnessed the peace and tranquility in his village and has, for all intents and purposes, been oblivious to anything outside of _that_ "world". Along his journey, which started with "omg letz find sauceke!!!", his eyes have been opened, figuratively speaking. While he is still determined to get Sasuke back, his outlook on that even changing and maturing, he is much more concerned with what you call the bigger picture; the problem with the world at large.
> 
> ...



There may have been a general take that these are peaceful times as far as konoha is concerned , but there were plenty of villages that were suffering. Naruto thought world peace only went as far as his village gates. The battle against pain is evidence of that. My point is naruto even at 13 had to have know of the suffering of other villages, he could not have just found that out when he went out on his first mission with team kakashi. The fact is whether you agree or not hash was actively working on a plan years before naruto showing his keen insight and willings to tackle this problem, that to me speaks to  a great leader.


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## BiNexus (Mar 8, 2013)

hokage5522 said:
			
		

> *The fact is whether you agree or not hash was actively working on a plan years before naruto* showing his keen insight and willings to tackle this problem, that to me speaks to  a great leader.


I'm going to respond to this first as I think it's the most important to stress. 

I completely agree with you in regards to the bolded. There's no denying that Hashirama began thinking about the problem first; none. However, there is a caveat to this; the external stressors of his situation pushed him to pursue a way of change. Take away or delay the senseless fighting and killing and he probably would not have pursued any change. I would venture that it speaks more to his maturity, rather than his keen insight; the problem was pretty apparent, but his plan was mature beyond his years. 


hokage5522 said:


> There may have been a general take that these are peaceful times as far as konoha is concerned , but there were plenty of villages that were suffering. Naruto thought world peace only went as far as his village gates.


Exactly my point; Naruto was oblivious to the world outside his gates. He saw a little of the Waves country and could feel Gaara's suffering as a jin from Suna, but other than that we have nothing that tells us he interacted in any large part to the world outside his village.


> The battle against pain is evidence of that. My point is naruto even at 13 had to have know of the suffering of other villages, he could not have just found that out when he went out on his first mission with team kakashi.


While we can speculate on that, the manga hasn't shown us that he ventured out of the village in such a way as to see the other villages. Maybe he did, but I think it's safe to assume the extent that he saw of the world outside the village was just the outskirts of Konoha territory. Edit: and of course Waves on that mission.


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## Addy (Mar 8, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Land of Waves arc.



part 1 naruto: sasukeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee  and ramen

before pain arc: sasukeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 

after pain arc: sasukeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee  and peace.

see a pattern here?


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 8, 2013)

Addy said:


> part 1 naruto: sasukeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee  and ramen
> 
> before pain arc: sasukeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
> 
> ...



Here's the double standard nobody thinks about:

A significant chunk of the people on these forums don't seem to like Naruto training arcs. Every time we've had one, I've seen people complain.

So, if Naruto had been like, "Ok, Sasuke's gone. I'mma let him do his own thing and not worry about him," we'd have probably had a half dozen different training arcs.

So, there'd be bitching either way.

Just admit it, please, with Naruto, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It's not in Naruto's character to forget about a friend, and I wouldn't have liked him if he'd just "let" sasuke go.


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## Milliardo (Mar 8, 2013)

too bad naruto has never had a plan for peace, but he is good at leading people on.


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## Gilgamesh (Mar 9, 2013)

People think Naruto is a good leader


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 9, 2013)

Naruto Part 1 Leadership Feats:

1) Youngest Character With An Apprentice (Konohamaru)
2) Cooperation From Rival (Combo To Free Kakashi)
3) Got Rival To Give Up Life Ambition (When Sasuke Sacrificed Himself To Defend Naruto)
4) Made Enemy Change Perspective On Existence (Made Zabuza Cry For Haku)
5) Made Child Have Courage & Round Up Supporters (Inari)
6) Monument Named After Him & His Heroism (Great Naruto Bridge)
7) Made Team Mates Give Up Advancement Op (Sakura Was Willing To Withdraw From CE Stage 1)
8) Trolled Famed Interrogation Expert (Made Ibiki Cut Test Short Once He Inspired Fellow Examinees)
9) Made Sasuke Stop Bein A Bitch (When Trying To Give Scroll To Oro In Forest Of Death)
10) Made A Timid Insecure Person Have Bravery & Determination (Hinata vs Neji)
11) Made A Boss Summon Respect Him (Gamabunta)
12) Inspired A Kage Candidate To Become Hokage (Tsunade)
13) Converted An Enemy To An Ally (Neji)
14) Converted An Enemy To An Ally (Sand Trio)
15) Co-Led A Squad To Bring Back A Missing Nin (They Stalled So That Naruto Could Reach Sasuke)

This is just Part 1 lol. Part 2 has even more lol. Stop dickridin Hashirama, Naruto will surpass Rikudo himself, to say otherwise is to straight up dickride & hate on Naruto.


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## kzk (Mar 9, 2013)

There's more to leadership than logistics.


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## boohead (Mar 9, 2013)

Only Hashi's grand plan failed, and the author is likely to make Naruto's plan work.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 9, 2013)

Hashirama's plan still was a plan to cope with violence. Naruto will supposedly end violence outright. He obviously doesnt have the strategic thinking and planning Hashi does but he doesnt need it.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 9, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> link in case pic isn't working
> 
> Looks like Leadership to me.
> 
> ...



I guess you can say that Pein nuking Konoha was a result of Hashirama building Konoha, because you can't nuke something that doesn't exist, but that is a _really_ pathetic example.

Naruto is a delusional, idealistic, terrible "leader" with a crackpot dream that only works on paper. He will succeed, and he will be "the greatest leader of the world ever" because the author will write it as such and he will tell us to believe it.

That's it. 

Naruto has the author on his side. _That's_ why he succeeds. It has nothing to do with him being brilliant. It has nothing to do with him being a great leader. It just has to do with what the author will eventually forcefeed us.

Any remotely competent person who has any grasp whatsoever on human nature knows Naruto's idea is total crap and doesn't even make sense, as it purposefully ignores a significant and critical part of human nature. Everyone just "understanding one another" and "co-existing peacefully" can not and will never work. There will always be someone who will seize the opportunity to gain power. There will always be someone who says "this is bullshit" and does whatever they want, possibly even leading to total war. There will always be disagreements, animosity, hatred, a lack of empathy, greed, selfishness, etc etc etc... That's just how it works. 

Want everyone to co-exist peacefully forever? Great! Better destroy the concept of free will first, thus destroying the very essence of humanity, and then we can all live together and hold hands and love one another under the shining rainbow of Naruto's Hokage cloak. Because, you know, even though we're all now deprived of free will, Naruto still gets to do whatever the fuck he wants because he's the leader and has all the power.

Maybe Hashirama's plan "failed", but at least it was realistic, functional, pragmatic, and, best of all! it acknowledged human nature. Naruto's is just a puddle of vomit the author will rub out faces in eventually until we eat it.

The whole thing is made even more hilariously ironic because while Obito and Madara want to send the entire world into a dream state, they are capable of seeing the truth about humanity, unlike Naruto. Even the villains' plan is more realistic, despite it being based on a total negation of reality.


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## Hossaim (Mar 9, 2013)

Can someone please explain in detail Naruto's role in uniting the ninja world.

The ninja world united themself at the mere mention of Madara's name, Naruto had absolutely nothing to do with it.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 9, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> I guess you can say that Pein nuking Konoha was a result of Hashirama building Konoha, because you can't nuke something that doesn't exist, but that is a _really_ pathetic example.
> 
> Naruto is a delusional, idealistic, terrible "leader" with a crackpot dream that only works on paper. He will succeed, and he will be "the greatest leader of the world ever" because the author will write it as such and he will tell us to believe it.
> 
> ...



LOL Pain being a result of the 5 Great Village Ninja System is a Canon Fact lol. Rain Village gets abused & pimped out as the battlefield for the Villages. Did Nagato look like a Ninja to you? He was a fuckin civilian. The Hashirama system sucked him in & made him who he is. Do you READ the manga? It's called Naruto in case you were confused on who the Main Character is lol.

Oh this manga about bonds & friendship should not have a character bring bonds, love, friendship, understanding & peace to the ninja world? Tell me what else it shouldn't have Kishi, lol.

Naruto will be > Rikudo Sennin by the time the story ends. Deal with it!


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## Shinryu (Mar 9, 2013)

Naruto isnt a leader hes a fucking idiot who thinks being powerful and changing the system Hashi worked his ass for will create an era of rainbows and unicorns

Shikaku,Gaara,Shikamaru.Mifune,Danzo and Kakashi are all examples of leaders


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## principito (Mar 9, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Naruto is a *delusional, idealistic*, terrible "leader" with a crackpot dream *that only works on paper*. He will succeed, and he will be "the greatest leader of the world ever" because the author will write it as such and he will tell us to believe it.
> 
> That's it.


What's wrong with an idealistic leader? People called Luther King delisional, they called Lincoln Delusional, ghandi wanted everybody to coexist peacefully.... like seriously your argument this time is DUH Mr Pika



> Naruto has the author on his side. _That's_ why he succeeds. It has nothing to do with him being brilliant. It has nothing to do with him being a great leader. It just has to do with what the author will eventually forcefeed us.



Now since when you analize the manga's inside perspective with an outside approach? you know you cant do that... saying something is this or that because of the author? I mean, EVERYTHING is the way it is because of the author, so analizing a fictional character from the real world perspective and then blaming it on the author seems...off



> Any remotely competent person who has any grasp whatsoever on human nature knows Naruto's idea is total crap and doesn't even make sense, as it purposefully ignores a significant and critical part of human nature. Everyone just "understanding one another" and "co-existing peacefully" can not and will never work. There will always be someone who will seize the opportunity to gain power. There will always be someone who says "this is bullshit" and does whatever they want, possibly even leading to total war. There will always be disagreements, animosity, hatred, a lack of empathy, greed, selfishness, etc etc etc... That's just how it works.
> 
> Want everyone to co-exist peacefully forever? Great! Better destroy the concept of free will first, thus destroying the very essence of humanity, and then we can all live together and hold hands and love one another under the shining rainbow of Naruto's Hokage cloak. Because, you know, even though we're all now deprived of free will, Naruto still gets to do whatever the fuck he wants because he's the leader and has all the power.
> 
> ...



So in real life, human race will never coexist peacefully... people are violent by nature, racist and have a hard time living with people with different beliefs, that being said, what you say is that u very much rather a dictator than a democracy.






ChaosX7 said:


> Naruto isnt a leader hes a fucking idiot who thinks being powerful and changing the system Hashi worked his ass for will create an era of rainbows and unicorns
> 
> Shikaku,Gaara,Shikamaru.Mifune,Danzo and Kakashi are all examples of leaders



All those leaders you mention will follow naruto in a heartbeat to wherever he leads.

I hate the guy, but gotta admit he know hoe to make people follow him. And that my friend is a leaders main characteristic


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## SasukeOfUchiha06 (Mar 9, 2013)

Pirao said:


> People are still in denial I see  Naruto is going to bring peace to the ninja world, something that all that came before him failed to do.



I agree with this. My biggest fear is that it will have a Code Geass type ending with Sasuke playing the "ultimate evil" who is actually self-sacrificing himself, so Naruto can user in united peace.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 9, 2013)

principito said:


> What's wrong with an idealistic leader? People called Luther King delisional, they called Lincoln Delusional, ghandi wanted everybody to coexist peacefully.... like seriously your argument this time is DUH Mr Pika



> Asks what's wrong with an idealistic leader.
> Lists assassination victims.



> Now since when you analize the manga's inside perspective with an outside approach? you know you cant do that... saying something is this or that because of the author? I mean, EVERYTHING is the way it is because of the author, so analizing a fictional character from the real world perspective and then blaming it on the author seems...off



We all know that Naruto finding world peace at the end of the manga is going to be entirely unbelievable.

Everything happens because the author wants it to, but there's a difference between things seeming natural/logical, and the author force-feeding us shit and expecting us to believe that it makes sense.



> *So in real life, human race will never coexist peacefully... people are violent by nature, racist and have a hard time living with people with different beliefs*, that being said, what you say is that u very much rather a dictator than a democracy.



This has been obvious for thousands of years. Where have you been?

The dictator versus democracy comment is pretty comical, seeing as Naruto wants world peace with perfect understanding, but still wants to rule over everyone.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 9, 2013)

Naruto is the Whirlpool which will Spiral the world into peace.


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## Taimadou (Mar 9, 2013)

Naruto will bring peace through brainwashing everyone into peace by force feeding people ramen with 1000000 kage bunshins. Those who refuse to eat will be beaten up until they eat. Because Naruto is Messiah, it is not violence,but love!


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## BiNexus (Mar 9, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> > Asks what's wrong with an idealistic leader.
> > Lists assassination victims.


Being assassinated is what's wrong with them? The aforementioned all tackled things that had been ingrained in their societies that they felt were wrong and are iconic symbols of courage, integrity and hope. I guess it's a good thing that Naruto will strip people of the right and ability to rebel, then.  


> We all know that Naruto finding world peace at the end of the manga is going to be entirely unbelievable.
> 
> Everything happens because the author wants it to, but there's a difference between things seeming natural/logical, and the author force-feeding us shit and expecting us to believe that it makes sense.


We are reading a _work of fiction_; he's been "feeding us shit" out the wazoo since the beginning. How is this any different than most other things in the manga? 


> This has been obvious for thousands of years. Where have you been?
> 
> The dictator versus democracy comment is pretty comical, seeing as Naruto wants world peace with perfect understanding, *but still wants to rule over everyone.*


You and I share the same view about the prospect of world peace. But this isn't the real world and we shouldn't expect to be able to apply that logic to all aspects of the narrative. Most of us here are mature enough to understand the craziness of it, and the fact that the morals and the ideals it puts forth as important aren't generally as important in real life. However, this is a work of fiction that is not necessarily written for our age group.

And where does it say he wants to rule over the ninjas?


----------



## principito (Mar 9, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> > Asks what's wrong with an idealistic leader.
> > Lists assassination victims.



ok, so fuck ideals so one doesnt get killed 



> We all know that Naruto finding world peace at the end of the manga is going to be entirely unbelievable.
> 
> Everything happens because the author wants it to, but there's a difference between things seeming natural/logical, and the author force-feeding us shit and expecting us to believe that it makes sense.



Totally right, but then you should say something like "Kishimoto doesnt seem to write Naruto's role as leader very well ..."

But on the other hand, as it is, Naruto has everybody in narutoverse following him; two separate things.... 




> This has been obvious for thousands of years. Where have you been?
> 
> The dictator versus democracy comment is pretty comical, seeing as Naruto wants world peace with perfect understanding, but still wants to rule over everyone.



I think you got is ass backwards. if there's anything that has been showed correctly is that naruto doesnt want power to rule and that he doesnt want to be hokage to rule. He's always been seeking for power to protect the people he loves and he want to become hokage to protect his village.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 9, 2013)

principito said:


> ok, so fuck ideals so one doesnt get killed



I was merely pointing out how my comment on humanity being incapable of peace is true.



> Totally right, but then you should say something like "Kishimoto doesnt seem to write Naruto's role as leader very well ..."
> 
> But on the other hand, as it is, Naruto has everybody in narutoverse following him; two separate things....



Makes it no more believable.



> I think you got is ass backwards. if there's anything that has been showed correctly is that naruto doesnt want power to rule and that he doesnt want to be hokage to rule. He's always been seeking for power to protect the people he loves and he want to become hokage to protect his village.



No. For a long time he wanted power and the Hokage seat for attention. Now it's changed _to an extent_. The problem with saying it's entirely changed is this: If Naruto does succeed in revolutionizing the world, there will be no need for a hokage. If everyone understands one another and wants peace, there is no need for a ruler. Who would he need to protect his people against?

Naruto's continual emphasis on wanting to be a hokage is becoming increasingly uncomfortable. Either he's too stupid to see the contradiction (which is very probable), or there is something else going on.


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## principito (Mar 9, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Makes it no more believable.



Yes, I know; just like you are right too about if NaruSasu is a believable friendship.... but my only point is that whether its believable or not, it is there so we have to see it like that.





> No. For a long time he wanted power and the Hokage seat for attention. Now it's changed _to an extent_. The problem with saying it's entirely changed is this: If Naruto does succeed in revolutionizing the world, there will be no need for a hokage. If everyone understands one another and wants peace, there is no need for a ruler. Who would he need to protect his people against?



You are right... to an extent. I mean, thing are impossible to stay constant as time goes by. So who's there left to protect? of from what? well... form the future.... from some hearbroken moron that will want to do something stupid just because things didnt worked out right.... 




> Naruto's continual emphasis on wanting to be a hokage is becoming increasingly uncomfortable. Either he's too stupid to see the contradiction (which is very probable), or there is something else going on.



This is something i've noticed.... Kishi keep bringing this hokage shit up despite the fact that there's a ninja alliance, so there i dont know. My guess is that since day one naruto's dream was to become hokage and despite the fact that this whole thing has changed from the original plan.... kishi wants to keep that constant.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 9, 2013)

principito said:


> Yes, I know; just like you are right too about if NaruSasu is a believable friendship.... but my only point is that whether its believable or not, it is there so we have to see it like that.



This is a circular argument so I am dropping this. I think Kishi does a terrible job at portraying this shit, and this we can agree on.



> You are right... to an extent. I mean, thing are impossible to stay constant as time goes by. So who's there left to protect? of from what? well... form the future.... from some hearbroken moron that will want to do something stupid just because things didnt worked out right....



If there is total understanding and true peace, no leader is necessary.

If even one person steps out of line, then understanding and peace did not happen, and everything failed. It's all or nothing. The fact that any leader would even be necessary in Naruto's ideal world is already a precursor to its own demise. 



> This is something i've noticed.... Kishi keep bringing this hokage shit up despite the fact that there's a ninja alliance, so there i dont know. My guess is that since day one naruto's dream was to become hokage and despite the fact that this whole thing has changed from the original plan.... kishi wants to keep that constant.



The weird thing is, he had dropped it for most of part 2. Naruto only very recently picked that shtick up again. Kishi hasn't been constant with it at all.


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## Ricky Sen (Mar 9, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> I was merely pointing out how my comment on humanity being incapable of peace is true.



Says the beneficiary of Pax Americana, living in a century with no world wars, in the most peaceful age in the history of humanity with the least amount of violent deaths relative to population.



PikaCheeka said:


> I was merely pointing out how my comment on humanity being incapable of peace is true.



I would never bet on an absolute statement like that when we have essentially till the end of time to prove it wrong. 

Oh, and Naruto wants to be recognized by his village which is what being hokage means to him. Trying to paint him as some aspiring, power-hungry despot is disingenuous and runs counter to how he has been portrayed. 

It's just an expression of your own projections and intentional misinterpretations. 

Peace.


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## Fatogromo (Mar 9, 2013)

Ricky Sen said:


> Says the beneficiary of Pax Americana, living in a century with no world wars, in the most peaceful age in the history of humanity with the least amount of violent deaths relative to population.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now, now, no need to get all agressive and personal. That is not a good tone. Let's keep this civil, shall we?


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## Kaix (Mar 9, 2013)

Hashirama inspired a large group of ninja to form an alliance and by that established power revolutionized the world. Make no mistake, it can be understood that the village system resulted from fear of the power of Uchiha and Senju. Why bother fighting against each other if the two strongest clans, as well as a number of other very strong clans have created a superpower? The only way for other clans to compete is to form their own superpowers. It's like the NBA today, if you,as a player, have any plans of winning a championship, you better be willing to sign for less money than you could get for the sole purpose of creating a super team to take on The Heat and the Thunder.

Naruto inspired a change of heart in all major ninja villages. Yes the threat that inspired the alliance was Obito, but that wouldn't keep the alliance afterward. Take a look at the Allied Powers of World War II. Took what, a few weeks to break that up, and even during the war there was a lot of passive aggressive political flexing of power, particularly between the US and USSR. Naruto has seen to it that they aren't fighting out of pure necessity but also out of a fondness for each other.

Hashirama inspired a new village to follow him. Naruto inspired 5 developed villages to follow him. Which one is a greater accomplishment?

And besides, how can you say Naruto will never surpass Hashirama? The only point to your arguement is that Hashirama influenced and revolutionized the world, but Naruto has influenced everyone individually in the world and is on the verge of revolutionizing the world further. That's like saying Edison created the light bulb and even though Direct Current sucks and Tesla revolutionized the use of electricity in a way that makes Edison's inventions virtually unrecognizable except by passing similarities, he will never be like Edison. The whole point of the manga is to detail how Naruto revolutionizes the world. Hashirama brought them out of the dark ages and Naruto is going to bring them into a time of universal peace. It won't be a permanent utopia, but it will be a peace that Hashirama couldn't envision.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 9, 2013)

Ricky Sen said:


> Says the beneficiary of Pax Americana, *living in a century with no world wars*, in the most peaceful age in the history of humanity with the least amount of violent deaths relative to population.



> March, 2013.



> I would never bet on an absolute statement like that when we have essentially till the end of time to prove it wrong.



I'll pass on the kool aid.



> Oh, and *Naruto wants to be recognized by his village which is what being hokage means to him*. Trying to paint him as some aspiring, power-hungry despot is disingenuous and runs counter to how he has been portrayed.
> 
> It's just an expression of your own projections and intentional misinterpretations.
> 
> Peace.



So Naruto wants to be Hokage because he wants attention. Awesome. Definitely the kind of leader I want. 

Honestly, I think you just made Naruto look even worse than I did in all my posts combined.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 9, 2013)

Who the fuk cares ? 

Unbroken is the true solo Goddess.


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 9, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Can someone please explain in detail Naruto's role in uniting the ninja world.
> 
> The ninja world united themself at the mere mention of Madara's name, Naruto had absolutely nothing to do with it.



Well, first of all, they wouldn't have gotten this far without him. I think that applies.


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## BasedKakashi (Mar 10, 2013)

Damn Kishi has written himself into a tough scenario.

Naruto is supposed to find world peace, which is fucking impossible, so when he does it'll be unrealistic bullshit.

And then on the other hand, he doesn't find world peace and he completely fails Minato and Jiraiya's expectations of him. (I actually wouldn't mind seeing that, but we all know Kishi wouldn't do that so 

But man, if the 5 ninja system is eliminated and they all unite as one body with Naruto as supreme dictator...fucking shoot me.


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## Deadking (Mar 10, 2013)

Whatever conclusion Sauske comes to you can be sure that he will have a better answer to peace then naruto.


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## Zarzamora-no-kimi (Mar 10, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> Naruto will never surpass Hashirama now.
> 
> As a kid, Hashirama was already thinking of dividing missions into ranks to protect children from danger. He already knew the way to stop fighting is to form an alliance with your rivals.
> 
> ...



But what kind of leadership are we even speaking of? There goes to say that there can be great leaders that don't necessarily make you submit. Hashirama's leadership was a "Follow me people" type of leadership. Naruto's one is "Stand by me" type of leadership.

When he wanted to do things alone it was not because he was making them submit, it was that he was ignorant of what wanting to do things alone meant. Now he has learnt his lesson. Also, you would be judging Naruto's actions, or lack thereof, on things that are not neccessary to be done now. 

Why would he care about children when they are safe somewhere already? Hashirama changed some stuff, Naruto doesn't have any reason loosing in time in something that ain't broken, that Hashirama worked on to fix. Now Naruto has to work on the stuff Hashirama couldn't deal with.


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## Deadking (Mar 10, 2013)

A leader doesn't Hyperventilation he   leads and makes wise decisions. See Alexander the great, Martin luthor king Jr,ghandi(butchered spelling sorry) Thomas Jefferson etc

Sauske,Kakashi or anyone else would make a much better leader.Hell even sakura would be a better leader then Naruto.Sucks his intelligence is gimped/nerfed. Sigh.....Fuck you kishi.


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## Falconandeagle (Mar 10, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> > March, 2013.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Being recognized and wanting attention are two different things. And anyway Naruto has already achieved his goal of being recognized so there's that. Now he is striving to unite the world and to eliminate world wars.

What I want to know is why you are going for absolutes, because nothing in this world in 100% absolute, there can be peace but it will never be absolute and I think Naruto knows that. What he is striving for is a world where wars don't break out every fkin decade and where there is an extended period of peace.

He is trying to end the cycle of hatred, however even he cannot stop douchebags like Kakuzu and Hidan from being born, so saying that Naruto wants a world where everyone is friends is false, his main and primary goal is to unite the world and end the cycle of hatred.

However I know my words are going to be wasted on you. So keep hating on Naruto it won't change the fact that Naruto is currently a semi decent leader and will grow into being an awesome one.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 10, 2013)

Falconandeagle said:


> *Being recognized and wanting attention are two different things.* And anyway Naruto has already achieved his goal of being recognized so there's that. Now he is striving to unite the world and to eliminate world wars.



Wanting to be recognized is wanting others (specific or in general) to acknowledge you in some way, shape or form. That is the same as wanting attention. 

I wasn't the one who said he wanted to be Hokage to be recognized anyway.



> What I want to know is why you are going for absolutes, because nothing in this world in 100% absolute, there can be peace but it will never be absolute and I think Naruto knows that. *What he is striving for is a world where wars don't break out every fkin decade and where there is an extended period of peace.*
> 
> *He is not trying to end the cycle of hatred*, however even he cannot stop douchebags like Kakuzu and Hidan from being born, so saying that Naruto wants a world where everyone is friends is false, *his main and primary goal is to unite the world and end the cycle of hatred.*
> 
> However I know my words are going to be wasted on you. So keep hating on Naruto it won't change the fact that Naruto is currently a semi decent leader and will grow into being an awesome one.



I'll just leave this here.


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## Adflaro (Mar 10, 2013)

As a Messiah and main character, Naruto has Plot no Jutsu backing him up. Luxury Hashirama lacked.


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## bearzerger (Mar 10, 2013)

What's the point in comparing the two, the situations are completely different. Hashirama was forced to grow up a lot more quickly than Naruto. He lived in an age of constant warfare wheras Naruto grew up in peacetime. As the eldest son Hashirama was from birth groomed to become the future leader of the Senju clan, Naruto grew up without any real parenting. So what point is there in demanding Naruto to measure up to Hashirama in this regard at this time. Naruto is developing rapidly. Even if he still has a couple of shortcomings he'll overcome them in short order.


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## Helios (Mar 10, 2013)

Naruto is incapable of political thinking.He just carries ideas that others have instilled on him without making the necessary effort to understand them and develop them into applicable forms.

Hashirama from a very early age, having the harsh reality of his existence in a bloodthirsty world as his only tutor, did exactly what Naruto fails consistently to achieve despite being "lectured" by important people.

Hashirama formulated a plan,a new proposal with which he inspired many.To understand Naruto's utter incompetence and failure one has to simply take into consideration the following : becoming the Hokage is incompatible with ending the Ninja System.


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 10, 2013)

Every time I come to the telegrams I'm sickened not by the sheer volume of anti-Naruto sentiment, but by the fact that the mods are viciously against anyone who tries to combat the anti-Naruto sentiment.

Every week there is thread after thread that amounts to little more than yelling about how much Naruto sucks at this or that, and it really baffles me how someone would keep reading if the _primary driving force_ of the series is on their shit list.

Hashirama's answer was a stopgap method. It was meant to be a temporary solution. It was meant to put an end to an era of constant warfare where nobody lived past a short lifespan. It was akin to how the earliest civilizations got together in the real world and shared food so they wouldn't starve to death.

We don't consider their answer to be the one we use for our civilization, so why should Hashirama's answer be the final answer in the series? Clearly the ninja system has to go. Anybody who thinks this system can stay isn't paying attention to the evil it has created, the use of underage minors as aggressors of war, and the fact that distrust, deception, and murder are the norm.

People say world peace is impossible. That's an opinion. There's no way to objectively prove world peace is impossible, so to say that it is impossible in fiction is ridiculous because this is a question for which there is no correct answer. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't.

After all Naruto has accomplished, I still find it amazing that I've NEVER read a series where someone hated the main character as much as Naruto has been hated. It blows my mind. I mean, if I've ever read a series where I hated the main character, I always ended up not reading the series further. The primary reason why I stopped reading One Piece early on was my dislike of Luffy.

If you hate Naruto, you will be disappointed when it's he's the one that gets the task complete in the end. He's pushed forward the most of any character in the series. He started out weak and got incredibly strong. If he had started out as amazing as Itachi or Minato, he would've had no room to grow, and there wouldn't have anything worthwhile to read. I don't care about a series where a character starts out as awesomely strong as they're ever going to be.


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## Kage (Mar 10, 2013)

Let them bitch about Naruto. It eases their pain of all he will accomplish despite their insistence that he couldn't find his way out of a paper bag let alone find world peace


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## Veo (Mar 10, 2013)

Naruto is the main reason the good guys are winning this war. Bitch please...


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## takL (Mar 10, 2013)

yep like as a leader Barack  Obama pales in comparison to George Washington.


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## Kaix (Mar 10, 2013)

Deadking said:


> A leader doesn't Hyperventilation he   leads and makes wise decisions. See Alexander the great, Martin luthor king Jr,ghandi(butchered spelling sorry) Thomas Jefferson etc
> 
> Sauske,Kakashi or anyone else would make a much better leader.Hell even sakura would be a better leader then Naruto.Sucks his intelligence is gimped/nerfed. Sigh.....Fuck you kishi.



Hold on, you don't think those people had any fear when they first began? Naruto hyperventilated when he first began fighting ninja, since then he has fought a great many of the strongest in history and is facing a monster so powerful only one being has ever defeated it, but yeah, he doesn't have any courage to like those guys.

And wise decisions? Alexander the Great alienated a large number of Macedonians and made several glaring tactical errors leading to the end of the empire and his death, all because he thought he was the son of Zeus and immortal. MLK was probably good, but the other two had some glaring personal issues. A lot of great minds stand out on a public scale, but their private lives are terrible. Either they can't hold it together with all they do publicly, or they tear it apart with reckless behavior.

Sasuke is a terrible leader. He can barely inspire a group to follow him. Kakashi is a tactical genius, but not too many people are willing to give their lives for him. Sakura is just Sakura. I mean, I like her because she is the most normal person in that she fails a lot, like most human beings. Most human beings don't inspire a following.

Naruto is facing the biggest threat the world has seen, an no hyperventilation, only one blue screen, and that was a martyr related blue screen unlike Kakashi's 3 self pity-induced blue screens. Naruto made the wise decision to forgive Nagato which lead to resurrection of Konoha. No other ninja would have done that, least of all the avenger, Sasuke. Naruto has inspired so many people to follow him, not because they think he is a competent leader, but because they trust him and want him to be alive. He's pretty much befriended the world at this point. 

More than just inspiring them to follow him, Naruto inspires them to be better. Just by doing living they all want to be better ninja, better human beings. They all rationalize the feeling different, some want to catch up to him, some want to help him, some want to stand beside him, some want to stop being a burden, and others just want to chill with a friend, but they all want to be better because of him. That is more than anyone else can say.

Maybe it's a pragmatic thing that makes Naruto look like a bad leader. Because he isn't book smart, often thinks uniquely, and has no understanding of politics, but non of that matters. He is capable of literally befriending anyone at this point. The only thing that matters in terms of quality leadership is that you can inspire people to die for you and that you protect them and keep them from needing to. Anyone here think that someone is going to kill Naruto? Anyone think that he will suddenly just let everyone die to save himself? No, no one thinks that. You might want it to happen out of some sadism for fictional characters, but no one thinks that the main character, who is third or fourth strongest being in existence currently, counting Juubi and the edos, is ever going to be killed by someone, at least not permanently. And no one has ever questioned Naruto's resolve for his friends.


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 10, 2013)

Deadking said:


> *A leader doesn't Hyperventilation he   leads and makes wise decisions.* See Alexander the great, Martin luthor king Jr,ghandi(butchered spelling sorry) Thomas Jefferson etc
> 
> Sauske,Kakashi or anyone else would make a much better leader.Hell even sakura would be a better leader then Naruto.Sucks his intelligence is gimped/nerfed. Sigh.....Fuck you kishi.



So, Naruto's not allowed to be a true friend?

Imagine if your best friend in the entire world, someone you'd known for years and shared good memories with, suddenly turned to a life of crime and hard drugs.

You'd feel nothing about that?


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## egressmadara (Mar 10, 2013)

Just realized that both of their best friends turned to their greatest rivals. And now both of them have a chance to reconcile. Time for Hashirama's TNJ


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## DeK3iDE (Mar 10, 2013)

tbh, i don't think Hashirama was that good of a leader himself. From looking at the track record, anyone who has held the title of Hokage has never had much when it came to wisdom. There's just a plethora of arguably foolish decisions and the very rare wise ones.


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## Deadking (Mar 10, 2013)

Moonraker_One said:


> So, Naruto's not allowed to be a true friend?
> 
> Imagine if your best friend in the entire world, someone you'd known for years and shared good memories with, suddenly turned to a life of crime and hard drugs.
> 
> You'd feel nothing about that?



I would be there for him/her but the situation is quit different. Sauske didn't give to shits about naruto and he actually wanted to get strong so he could kill  Itachi. Do you  think that if the leaf helped him to get stronger that he wouldn't have stayed ?

Plus a Friendship is a two way street not one way. Naruto and Sauske never had a talk about there past or family situation which was basically null on naruto's part.

Next naruto should catch a Fucking hint and stop trying to gobble up Sauskes nuts. I don't really know how far someone in japan will go for someone that didn't really give a shit about them but from a real life point of view This Obsessiveness Compulsive Disorder that Naruto has is disturbing and I for one hope that they either both die as naruto has said or Sauske is killed. You know why ? Because even if Naruto brings peace to there universe etc, His disorder will dampen any further achievements he will make in the future unless he grows up and leaves this childhood mentality behind.

P.S kaix I will get to you later


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## fleaky (Mar 10, 2013)

naruto not forgiven nagato


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## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 10, 2013)

Hashirama = Abraham Lincoln.


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 10, 2013)

Deadking said:


> I would be there for him/her but the situation is quit different. Sauske didn't give to shits about naruto and he actually wanted to get strong so he could kill  Itachi. *1**Do you  think that if the leaf helped him to get stronger that he wouldn't have stayed ?
> *
> 
> *2Plus a Friendship is a two way street not one way. Naruto and Sauske never had a talk about there past or family situation which was basically null on naruto's part.*
> ...



I've put numbers next to specific points I plan on addressing.

1. Sasuke's biggest argument, the same one made in this point, is that the leaf could not possibly have made him strong enough to face/defeat Itachi. Naruto has proven that false. Konoha DOES have the tools to make powerful ninja. If it was impossible for the leaf to make someone as strong as Itachi, ITACHI would not have been as strong as he was. This point is invalid. Konoha has produced shinobi of immense caliber. Jiraya comes to mind. He didn't have a super blood line.

2. Orochimaru HIMSELF identified that Naruto was causing a positive change in Sasuke. His words were, "I have to stain him with my darkness before the darkness in him is eradicated." That could not happen without Naruto being a good friend to Sasuke.

3. People who mistake Naruto wanting his best friend to stop being a horrible person for homosexuality make me physically ill. I cannot stand the hypocrisy. These people who say he should have ignored Sasuke the moment he left the village are the same people who would have skinned Naruto alive if he had done so. It is NOT Naruto being gay for Sasuke that he wants him back. Don't you think, as good as Naruto is at shadow clones, if he REALLY was gay for Sasuke, he would have sex with a clone turned into Sasuke as a workaround? Also, WHY, if he is gay for Sasuke, has he not shown any romantic interest in any male character other than him? Your statement has flaws.


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## Spika (Mar 10, 2013)

The problem is with certain sennin, 3 years of training is a lot of time, he could have taught Naruto how to be a leader besides some jutsu.


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## Deadking (Mar 11, 2013)

Moonraker_One said:


> I've put numbers next to specific points I plan on addressing.
> 
> 1. Sasuke's biggest argument, the same one made in this point, is that the leaf could not possibly have made him strong enough to face/defeat Itachi. Naruto has proven that false. Konoha DOES have the tools to make powerful ninja. If it was impossible for the leaf to make someone as strong as Itachi, ITACHI would not have been as strong as he was. This point is invalid. Konoha has produced shinobi of immense caliber. Jiraya comes to mind. He didn't have a super blood line.
> 
> ...




Didn't say that Naruto was gay,or even went in that direction at all,so I don't know where that came from.

You got me at the Oro part. I'll concede to that 

As for your first point would the leaf provided enough training and jutsu to make sauske stronger then itachi. Really how many top level ninja where there to teach sauske the necessary jutsu he needs to get the job done ? Really ? What about progressing the sharingan ? You think kakashi would provide him with enough jutsu that would be able to suffice against Itachi ? Plus you can't forget that he had know one related to him uchiha wise so  yeah. Also  sauske didn't know about the sharingan in kakashis possession off the eye anyway in part 1 so yeah.


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## Falconandeagle (Mar 11, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Wanting to be recognized is wanting others (specific or in general) to acknowledge you in some way, shape or form. That is the same as wanting attention.
> 
> I wasn't the one who said he wanted to be Hokage to be recognized anyway.
> 
> ...



Lol I edited my post.. made a typing error. It shall make more sense now lol.


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## Kage (Mar 11, 2013)

> Don't you think, as good as Naruto is at shadow clones, if he REALLY was gay for Sasuke, he would have sex with a clone turned into Sasuke as a workaround?


oh my.

I'm not sure how the conversation ended up here but


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## Deadking (Mar 11, 2013)

yeah I know man dudes is so kinky.lol


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 11, 2013)

Deadking said:


> *Didn't say that Naruto was gay,or even went in that direction at all,so I don't know where that came from.*





Kage said:


> oh my.
> 
> I'm *not sure how* the conversation ended up here but





Deadking said:


> yeah I know man dudes is so kinky.lol



Ok, fine. Let me bring up your exact words:



Deadking said:


> Next naruto should catch a Fucking hint and *stop trying to gobble up Sauskes nuts.*



There it is.


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## Deadking (Mar 11, 2013)

Moonraker_One said:


> Ok, fine. Let me bring up your exact words:
> 
> 
> 
> There it is.



The nut gobbling think was meant to be metaphorical.

_Please review our flaming policies... -*SaiST*_​


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 11, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Is this how you speak in real life or are you just pretending?



Lol? How is this relevant to the thread? Are you here to discuss Naruto or you just here pretending? Smh.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 11, 2013)

^ nicca prolly mad


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## Plague (Mar 11, 2013)

Dude, EVERYONE pales in comparison to Hashirama.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 11, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Lol? How is this relevant to the thread? Are you here to discuss Naruto or you just here pretending? Smh.



I am just curious. I have never actually met anyone who talks the way you do except one time in Harlem.  Anyways, feel free to not respond but I was genuinely curious

I find your vernacular quite strange but intriguing nonetheless


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## Lezu (Mar 11, 2013)

I'm honestly tired of these comparisons.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 11, 2013)

Unbroken said:


> ^ nicca prolly mad



Huh?




Senjuclan said:


> I am just curious. I have never actually met anyone who talks the way you do except one time in Harlem.  Anyways, feel free to not respond but I was genuinely curious
> 
> I find your vernacular quite strange but intriguing nonetheless



Hmm... "One Time In Harlem"? Where are you from, if you don't mind me askin?


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 11, 2013)

Naruto is severely lacking in the leadership front.


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## UchihaMikoto (Mar 11, 2013)

*lol tldr 8(*

Okay, I haven't paid close enough attention lately to be 100% solid on all this, correct me if I'm wrong:

1. The function of a "founding" kage versus one down the line is going to end up fundamentally different in practice, if not in theory. Hashirama had to group clans and establish as many common grounds as he could to get things started. By the time we see things under Sarutobi, established traditions, positive OR negative (see: Hyuuga Clan), are still in effect, and don't seem close to budging -- not only have those traditions _not_ been phased out, but they've made their home _within_ the system. Additionally, grudges between _clans_ may have been put aside, but down the line, history between _villages_ builds up, and not just socially -- one of Suna's major reasons for joining Orochimaru versus Konoha was due to their economic situation.

2. When it comes down to it, the whole shinobi system is militaristic. Though Hashirama's system is also militaristic, economics is an important factor. War is profit! I forget whether there's any mention of the clans doing missions for profit before the villages, but presumably, clans were associated with lords/geographical locations that they maintained for resources, monetary or not. Unless there's a shift to industrialism or services or whatever, where there is a more even distribution in population between military and civilian, this isn't changing. Some people brought up wartime examples, but I don't think anyone mentioned an _arms race_, which is what shinobi since their inception have operated under. They've constantly been shown to fight for resources, including but not limited to techniques/ninjutsu/bijuu/lives.

3. There aren't a lot of ways to get around an arms race, at least that I can think of, which isn't surprising because reasons. In the simplest sense an arms race means that countries are constantly ready for a fight, and that makes people trigger-happy, so constant, smaller skirmishes would have to be overlooked to avoid outbreaks of war. If one country has more arms, it's easier to win battles. I think Hashirama had the right idea by distributing the bijuu -- aside from showing good faith, it evens the playing ground in terms of the arms race (aka the resources each village has at its disposal). This makes unbalanced outbreak of war less likely, because if a winner is not so clear, war becomes unprofitable (in terms of $/techniques/tools/lives). The chuunin exams are a clear method of gauging where each village is at, for example.

4. It may seem like shinobi have fought lots of unprofitable wars, but that's not necessarily the case. Kumo has two jinchuuriki, while Konoha is clearly the biggest/wealthiest village we've seen, not to mention housing Kurama. Rain village didn't luck out simply because they were the battle-ground and underwent a lot of trauma/destruction/depletion of resources. But allying is starting to seem profitable too! Suna's recovery after fighting Konoha -- at least we assume there is a recovery, because unless I'm totally forgetting that it was said somewhere, they were satisfied allying with Konoha -- is a shift from a focus to economics MORE than military power, where alliances and trade make up for loss of profits from ninjaing in the night.

6. Now, most "resources" don't ~have feels~ (aside from, y'know, shinobi "tools"), but bijuu do. Hashirama, and everyone before or after RS until Naruto, has failed to connect with the biggest ticking resources in the whole Narutoverse. This is a problem, because apparently bijuu have minds of their own, and there's a huge difference in having them try to work with their Jinchuuriki vs against their Jinchuuriki. They are arguably the most important resource the clans/villages can get their hands on.

7. By sharing the bijuu, imo Hashirama tried to get rid of the biggest proponent of the whole arms race all together. Creating a balance of power = stability = which in long term could lead to demilitarization. However, because he could _not_ root out the inter-clan/village grudges and traditions under a united banner (lol Uchiha vs Senjuu), as revolutionary as he was, this effort was bound to fail. On top of failing to maintain the trust between clans/villages, Hashirama did not connect with the bijuu as more than resources, which makes a big difference here -- iirc Kurama sided with Naruto at first just because he hates Madara.

8. Naruto, on the other hand, is an idiot savant in the booksmart sense, but his personal goal hasn't changed: he wants to be hokage, if he can honestly say he deserves it (by bringing Sauce back, protecting the village, maintaining his ninja way, answering Jiraiya's peace question etc). While a founding kage's role was, yes, imo more political -- since then, in order to maintain the arms race, a kage's main requirement is to be the _most powerful_ in the village. Not the most intelligent or manipulative or resourceful, just the most powerful (though those things often go hand in hand), and Naruto fulfills that power requirement easily. He has friends and councils and elders to help with all the rest.

9. THEREFORE, Naruto, if/when he becomes hokage, would eliminate the major arms race by truly having connected with the bijuu, and by having made so many connections with people in other clans/villages. He's a huge resource to his allies simply by powerful as all hell, and people trust him. As plain as that might be, the major obstacle that Hashirama faced with distrust is less and less of an issue with Naruto. Not to mention a lot of clans have probably died out by now, along with their grudges 


So in conclusion/tl;dr: The comparison is moot -- Hashirama and subsequent leaders made the world a place where someone like Naruto could grow up, which in turn he'll improve for the next gen. Naruto may not be the best thing since sliced bread but, whether he's aware of it or not, he's exactly what the shinobi world needs atm. A dude who 1.) they can trust not to dupe them 2.) won't back up on his own word, which is pretty much Naruto's ninja way aaaand 3.) is strong enough to back up those words. He doesn't need to be the CoP for that, but I guess the difference is that he'll have to verbalize his answer to peace rather than just _be_ it. He's already past halfway there.


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## fleaky (Mar 11, 2013)

who cares about booksmart?


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## Senjuclan (Mar 11, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Hmm... "One Time In Harlem"? Where are you from, if you don't mind me askin?



I am from Los Angeles. What about yourself?

Just to be clear, I have heard many a people use the kind of vernacular you use on TV but only ever met one person in real life who talks that way hence why I was curious


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## Kyoka Trollgetsu (Mar 11, 2013)

Hashirama isn't going to be the one who will save everyone's ass from perfect juubi.


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## titanlord1 (Mar 11, 2013)

Kyoka Trollgetsu said:


> Hashirama isn't going to be the one who will save everyone's ass from perfect juubi.



more like madara isnt going to be the one who will save jubi's ass from hashirama.


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## 3rdgenkage (Mar 12, 2013)

Link removed  OH REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EXPERT NINJA INTERGATOR SAYS OTHERWISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Naruto inspires through example he doesn't need some grand sceme like Hashirama. He just follows his heart and he has befriend both Bee and saved Gaara for the sand. Those are two villiages that like Naruto and it seems like the Tsukage likes Gaara a lot and is changing in the same way Chiyo did. Then the Mist Naruto has a bridge built after him. Just by following his heart, helping people whenever he can and doing the right thing he has accidently caused a strong alliance.


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## Pirao (Mar 12, 2013)

titanlord1 said:


> more like madara isnt going to be the one who will save jubi's ass from hashirama.



Lol, like the Juubi needs saving from anyone


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 12, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Lol, like the Juubi needs saving from anyone



Dat Alliance Jutsu is serious tho lol.

On topic:

Hashirama lead 1 Village of Shinobi

Naruto is leading 5 Villages of Shinobi & the Iron Country of Samurai

1 < 5

5+1 > 1 lol


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## Senjuclan (Mar 12, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Dat Alliance Jutsu is serious tho lol.
> 
> On topic:
> 
> ...



When did Naruto lead 5 villages? 

I must have missed it.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 12, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Dat Alliance Jutsu is serious tho lol.
> 
> On topic:
> 
> ...



Hashirama and Madara subdued all other clans prior to the founding of the village itself.

Naruto is leading a group of people who Obito brought together already.

Hashirama led a group of people he had to bring together first.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 12, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> When did Naruto lead 5 villages?
> 
> I must have missed it.



Must have lol. Senju Clan woulda got ran through lol. already wearing handbands


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## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 12, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Huh?



O.......................


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## 3rdgenkage (Mar 12, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Naruto has not changed anything in the ninja world nor will he



The sand and Orochimaru attacked the Leaf however the Leaf and Sand still have a strong alliance. I wonder why that is?






















Naruto


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## Senjuclan (Mar 13, 2013)

3rdgenkage said:


> The sand and Orochimaru attacked the Leaf however the Leaf and Sand still have a strong alliance. I wonder why that is?
> 
> 
> Naruto



Suna needed Konoha so they apologized. Konoha was weak and they agreed. Naruto had nothing to do with it. It was Tsunade's doing


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## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> Naruto is a great character.





on-topic: no shit

the merest micron of dirt in one of hashirama's toenails could outshine naruto as a leader


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## Foxve (Mar 13, 2013)

LOL Naruto didn't do anything but fight in this war. Tobi's declaration of war united the villages and Garaa speech got them to fight together. If there is a timeskip fine, but right now Naruto would be a horrible leader. He's too childish.


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## Sarry (Mar 13, 2013)

3rdgenkage said:


> The sand and Orochimaru attacked the Leaf however the Leaf and Sand still have a strong alliance. I wonder why that is?
> 
> 
> 
> Naruto



Last time I checked, that only happened because the Kazekage was friendly to Konoha. Add to that, Konoha was extremely weakened at the time. 

Naruto had nothing to do with it.


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## Danzio (Mar 13, 2013)

Capacity to lead  ✓
Extraordinaire negotiation tactics ✓
Inspiring ✓
Powerful ✓
Never give up attitude ✓
Savior ✓
Revolutionary ✓


It's disingenuous to marginalize his leadership abilities and accomplishments in said field.The fact he can convert even the most psycotic, revengeful, broken characters into the strongest allies is a true testament to his strong conviction in his beliefs .


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## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2013)

Danzio said:


> Capacity to lead  ✓
> Extraordinaire negotiation tactics ✓
> Inspiring ✓
> Powerful ✓
> ...



> plot on his side ✓
> villains having heelface turns due to awful writing ✓
> fucking lol
> no shit ✓
> him and every other ninja of note ✓
> fucking lol
> mumbo jumbo


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## Danzio (Mar 13, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> > plot on his side ✓
> > villains having heelface turns due to awful writing ✓
> > fucking lol
> > no shit ✓
> ...



It?s irrelevant whether or not it?s due to awful writing and/or plot importance ? completely subjective, anyway. It?s still his_ actions_.


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## Pirao (Mar 13, 2013)

Danzio said:


> It?s irrelevant whether or not it?s due to awful writing and/or plot importance ? completely subjective, anyway. It?s still his_ actions_.



People are always going to scream "PnJ" about things they don't like. Same old story...


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## Danzio (Mar 13, 2013)

Pirao said:


> People are always going to scream "PnJ" about things they don't like. Same old story...



Exactly.

It's the nature of the beast, however, it won't change the facts.


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## Pirao (Mar 13, 2013)

Danzio said:


> Exactly.
> 
> It's the nature of the beast, however, *it won't change the facts.*



Yep. Which in the end, the only thing they can do is bitch and moan about it


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## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2013)

so raising an objection when someone tries to use this nonsense as proof of leadership ability i.e. replying to someone else bringing it up in the first place

is 'bitching and moaning'

> desperate


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 13, 2013)

Naruto turned Gaara & Nagato into allies of the leaf & those were some CRAZY mothafuckas.

Every act of leadership that Naruto has sown has yielded him good & positive fruit.

Inari came with goons

Konohamaru Rasengan'd Pain

Hinata attacked Pain which led to KN6

Tsunade became a Hokage

Neji protected him in the war

Nagato ressurected Konoha

Konan almost soloed Tobi

Itachi gave him Koto which ultimately resluted in defeating Kabuto

Befriended Kurama & is now powering an entire army

Gaara became a Kazekage

Inspired the speech that united the army

Inspired the speech that made oonoki stop bein an old fart

Solo'ed a war

ID'd Zetsus & prevented more casualties

He's gonna get even more feats & influence after this war.

I honestly laugh at the notion of Hashirama being better than Naruo at leading. Naruto is already at least on par with Hashirama, though feats say he's > whatever Hashirama has shown. By the end of the story Naruto will be > Rikudo Sennin himself. Prepare yourself folks, it's gonna be a glorious day!


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## principito (Mar 13, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> > plot on his side ✓
> > villains having heelface turns due to awful writing ✓
> > fucking lol
> > no shit ✓
> ...



So this thread has a bunch of stupid arguments, but this one takes the cake BY FAR


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## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2013)

because that's an argument of its own

and not a series of objections to someone's argument

also, great rebuttals


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## Klue (Mar 13, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Must have lol. Senju Clan woulda got ran through lol. Link removed



I believe Shikaku was the one giving orders.


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## Sarry (Mar 13, 2013)

Klue said:


> I believe Shikaku was the one giving orders.



Yeah, It was Shikaku who's been giving the orders, and the reasoning behind their moves. 
Naruto is more like a shiny carrot dangling from a stick, to keep alliance motivation...so to speak:amazed


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 13, 2013)

Klue said:


> I believe Shikaku was the one giving orders.



Oh the same Shikaku that knew following Naruto's Wishes to speak to Nagato by him self was best?

Yea Naruto > Shikaku on the leading side of things.

Shikaku leaves thing up to Shikamaru: Shikamaru stayed behind in Part1 so that Naruto could meet Sasuke.

Naruto > Shikamaru on the leading side of things.

See where this is going?

These people who are hailed as the leaders of this generation all cater to Naruto & his wishes. They are FOLLOWING his will. He is their LEADER.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Oh the same Shikaku that knew following Naruto's Wishes to speak to Nagato by him self was best?
> 
> Yea Naruto > Shikaku on the leading side of things.
> 
> ...



...so because shikaku once let naruto speak to nagato, and shikamaru once let naruto speak to sasuke

that somehow invalidates the fact that their tactical intelligence is vastly, vastly, above his

and that shikaku was the one truly in charge of co-ordinating the alliance's moves and naruto was merely its heaviest hitter

that's supremely shitty logic

please

naruto is the alliance's brawn. a leader isn't the muscle. he's the mind.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 13, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> ...so because shikaku once let naruto speak to nagato, and shikamaru once let naruto speak to sasuke
> 
> that somehow invalidates the fact that their tactical intelligence is vastly, vastly, above his
> 
> ...



Lol are u serious? Intelligence doesn't make one a leader. It makes them intelligent lol. Lil Wayne is a retard & he's lead more people than Einstein.

Naruto's mind IS the alliance. He's a SHINOBI! He will show them peace & unity. Stop hatin lol. Kages are both mind & muscle! Naruto = Ninja World Leader! Deal with it!


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## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Lol are u serious? Intelligence doesn't make one a leader. It makes them intelligent lol. Lil Wayne is a retard & he's lead more people than Einstein.
> 
> Naruto's mind IS the alliance. He's a SHINOBI! He will show them peace & unity. Stop hatin lol. Kages are both mind & muscle! Naruto = Ninja World Leader! Deal with it!





AlphaReaver said:


> Lil Wayne is a retard & he's lead more people than Einstein.





AlphaReaver said:


> Lil Wayne





AlphaReaver said:


> lead





AlphaReaver said:


> people





AlphaReaver said:


> Naruto's mind IS the alliance.





AlphaReaver said:


> Naruto = Ninja World Leader! Deal with it!


what in god's name are you gibbering about


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## Es (Mar 13, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Lol are u serious? Intelligence doesn't make one a leader . It makes them intelligent lol. Lil Wayne is a retard & he's lead more people than Einstein.
> 
> Naruto's mind IS the alliance. He's a SHINOBI! He will show them peace & unity. Stop hatin lol. Kages are both mind & muscle! Naruto = Ninja World Leader! Deal with it!


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## ch1p (Mar 13, 2013)

The whole Naruto lived in peace is irrelevant. He was more of a hero that inspired the readers in part I than in part II, and he was just a kid then. His approach to Inari, Zabuza, Neji, Gaara and Tsunade was simple and sometimes flawed, but it had a great basis nevertheless. Even people like Hinata, Sakura and the Chunin exam crowd, who got to appreciate him without needing to be TnJ was fine. There was the promise of more, when he grew up. It was all handled pretty well, so the reader also felt inspired, not just the characters.

Well, Naruto grew up, but he regressed on the inspirational part. Besides what he told Chyo, which was quite nice even if he was struggled with what to say (understandably, reminds me of Zabuza actually), everything else has been lackluster. The conversations with Sasuke which go nowhere, Nagato's conversion which is just bullshit halfway towards the end, the Raikage , his "debates" with Obito. All of it is pretty terrible and even if Sasuke will see the light, Nagato was converted, Raikage supports him and Obito is defeated, it feels uninspired, dull.


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## MegaultraHay (Mar 13, 2013)

I feel most of these arguments rely on obsessive love and hate of Kishi's characters.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2013)

re: chi1p - exactly

people keep quoting the in-story perception of naruto as some messianic figure, as if it's proof to a reader that he has genuine leadership quality. but the fact is, kishi can have anyone say anything he wants them to, in support of his favourite mediocrity

the important thing is if the reader - looking objectively at what naruto displays and how he resolves conflicts and what he shows - is convinced that he's a good leader

and when you realise that virtually everything he's settled in part II, especially with regards to nagato, has required the plot and the antagonist to bend over backwards to surrender to him...you aren't especially convinced of his leadership ability


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## Kage (Mar 13, 2013)

MegaultraHay said:


> I feel most of these arguments rely on obsessive love and hate of Kishi's characters.



It's one or the other here in the KL.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 13, 2013)

Danzio said:


> It?s irrelevant whether or not it?s due to awful writing and/or plot importance ? completely subjective, anyway. It?s still his_ actions_.



Being the Child of Prophecy is not Naruto's action.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 13, 2013)

People are actually denying that the ability to influence others to follow one's wishes is not leadership lol. The Naruto hate is crazy on these forums lately smh. When Shodai converts Madara to come back to Konoha, converts the Bijuu into allies & make enemies of Konoha ressurect konohans instead you holla at me!

Naruto >= Hashirama as a leader


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 13, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> People are actually denying that the ability to influence others to follow one's wishes is not leadership lol. The Naruto hate is crazy on these forums lately smh. *When Shodai converts Madara to come back to Konoha*, converts the Bijuu into allies & make enemies of Konoha ressurect konohans instead you holla at me!
> 
> Naruto >= Hashirama as a leader



"Converting", forgiving, and _inviting back to the village _dangerous psychopaths is not being a good leader. 

It's a little disconcerting that you think it is.


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## HoriMaori (Mar 13, 2013)

The effectiveness of the leader is also related to the strength and ability of their followers.

After witnessing Shikaku's prowess with formulating strategies on the fly, Yondaime Raikage mentioned to Tsunade that he now knows why Konohagakure was so difficult to defeat. That was not a shoutout to Hiruzen.

What I am trying to get at is a leader makes decisions based on the options available. It is the strategists' job to ensure that there are always options.

Naruto will have the benefit of having Shikamaru as his strategist, but we don't know if Hashirama did that for himself or not.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Mar 13, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Lol are u serious? Intelligence doesn't make one a leader. It makes them intelligent lol. Lil Wayne is a retard & he's lead more people than Einstein.
> 
> Naruto's mind IS the alliance. He's a SHINOBI! He will show them peace & unity. Stop hatin lol. Kages are both mind & muscle! Naruto = Ninja World Leader! Deal with it!


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## Lurko (Mar 13, 2013)

Hashi>>> naruto , but that's right now, future naruto will be a better leader.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 13, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> "Converting", forgiving, and _inviting back to the village _dangerous psychopaths is not being a good leader.
> 
> It's a little disconcerting that you think it is.



Converting implies that the psychopath is reformed & no longer a threat to society or himself.  But if you're telling me Naruto can do what Shodai can't, then I agree.


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## ch1p (Mar 14, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> But if you're telling me Naruto can do what Shodai can't, then I agree.



There is a problem with it.

Hashirama actually thought about the problem deeply, thought of answers for it, and finally tested them. Even if Hashirama didn't solve the problem, the truth is from the story's POV, Hashirama thought of a plan, designed said plan, and implemented it.

In contrast, Naruto has not thought about the problem much, he just goes with the flow. To make things worse, Naruto has a naive conception of it. First, Naruto has not lived through multiple wars and its consequences (he has yet to live through his first). Second, Naruto has yet to suffer considerable loss, because while Jiraiya and Neji are great losses, they are not what makes the cycle of hatred turn. Third, he does not understand these people's reasons for hatred at all. He does not understand what's like to have a village destroyed and live through it (Nagato pissed on that development), he does not understand what's like to see all your loved ones die (Sasuke), he has no clue whatsoever what's like to lose hope (Madara, Obito).In tandem with not thinking about the problem much, he obviously has no semblance of plan whatsoever.

If Naruto solves this problem as things are, it's going to be because he's the main character and only because he's the main character. (sidenote: There is a difference between a character accomplishing stuff and because of that he's a main character, and a main character suffices and that's why he accomplishes stuff. The former is what makes a hero, the latter is what makes a dumbass with author support.). He hasn't thought about it, he doesn't have a plan, and he has no clue how to tackle this matter.

At this point, the more that we can aim at for Naruto solving shit is a contrived solution. It's gonna suck because it has had no background whatsoever (explained above). Which was all fine and dandy when Naruto was just a kid making a name for himself, you know. However, from the moment he has this type of mission attached to him, to end the cycle of hatred and the wars and whatever else, there are certain expectations of his character. Expectations that are not being met and don't seem like they're going to be met. And it's not like Naruto is rejecting the mission to be the chosen one, which then there wouldn't be any problem with Naruto not accomplishing anything or accomplishing something by total fluke. No Naruto's fucking embracing it and yet, he doesn't think about it, he doesn't plan, he does nothing. To repeat myself, he just goes with the plot. There is no substance to his mission.

Like I said before, Naruto was a much better hero in part I. He did not have the destiny bullshit attached to him, he was just a kid making a name for himself, and all of his TnJ had a basic, but solid base. So unless Kishimoto pulls the rabbit out of the arse and makes it a joined effort between his friends, this is not going to end well. Of course you and others who don't think about it too deeply will love it as long as Naruto gets what he wants and sure, this is a manga for 12 year olds, but srly if Kishimoto can make a plot for Hashirama regarding this in two damn flashback chapters, how could he not have touched upon this in 623 chapters of the manga for his main character?


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 14, 2013)

ch1p said:


> There is a problem with it.
> 
> Hashirama actually thought about the problem deeply, thought of answers for it, and finally tested them. Even if Hashirama didn't solve the problem, the truth is from the story's POV, Hashirama thought of a plan, designed said plan, and implemented it.
> 
> ...



The naive answer IS the solution. The good kids who dream are the ones who end up dead at a young age or grow old & bitter. Naruto is going to be the kid who succeeds & changes the world. Shonen > Underdog story > Fiction >


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## Foxve (Mar 14, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> The naive answer IS the solution. The good kids who dream are the ones who end up dead at a young age or grow old & bitter. Naruto is going to be the kid who succeeds & changes the world. Shonen > Underdog story > Fiction >



I like how your reply to his post shows you have no answer but "Narudo iz da hero, so he will do it" without a reason as to how it'll be believable......


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 14, 2013)

Foxve said:


> I like how your reply to his post shows you have no answer but "Narudo iz da hero, so he will do it" without a reason as to how it'll be believable......



I like how you need me to tell you how to believe something in a work of FICTION. Suspend your disbelief or QUIT! Believe it! I have answers but need no further explanation. I think I've said enough in all of these pages of discussion. Naruto is unique, unprecedented, audacious, & does the unexpected & impossible. If you haven't learned by now, you sure will lol.


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## Seraphiel (Mar 14, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> The naive answer IS the solution. The good kids who dream are the ones who end up dead at a young age or grow old & bitter. Naruto is going to be the kid who succeeds & changes the world. Shonen > Underdog story > Fiction >



You totally missed her point.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

i think alphareaver lost all credibility somewhere around when he opined that lil wayne was a 'leader'

also



ch1p said:


> There is a problem with it.
> 
> Hashirama actually thought about the problem deeply, thought of answers for it, and finally tested them. Even if Hashirama didn't solve the problem, the truth is from the story's POV, Hashirama thought of a plan, designed said plan, and implemented it.
> 
> ...



quoted for overwhelming and superb truth


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## Bontakun (Mar 14, 2013)

ch1p said:


> The whole Naruto lived in peace is irrelevant. He was more of a hero that inspired the readers in part I than in part II, and he was just a kid then. His approach to Inari, Zabuza, Neji, Gaara and Tsunade was simple and sometimes flawed, but it had a great basis nevertheless. Even people like Hinata, Sakura and the Chunin exam crowd, who got to appreciate him without needing to be TnJ was fine. There was the promise of more, when he grew up. It was all handled pretty well, so the reader also felt inspired, not just the characters.
> 
> Well, Naruto grew up, but he regressed on the inspirational part. Besides what he told Chyo, which was quite nice even if he was struggled with what to say (understandably, reminds me of Zabuza actually), everything else has been lackluster. The conversations with Sasuke which go nowhere, Nagato's conversion which is just bullshit halfway towards the end, the Raikage , his "debates" with Obito. All of it is pretty terrible and even if Sasuke will see the light, Nagato was converted, Raikage supports him and Obito is defeated, it feels uninspired, dull.





ch1p said:


> There is a problem with it.
> 
> Hashirama actually thought about the problem deeply, thought of answers for it, and finally tested them. Even if Hashirama didn't solve the problem, the truth is from the story's POV, Hashirama thought of a plan, designed said plan, and implemented it.
> 
> ...



QFT. Naruto's dialog is lacking. He has no answers to questions posed by other leaders looking for an answer, like Nagato and Obito. He has to beat them up to win.

He doesn't transform. Hashi did that.
He doesn't unite. Obito and Gaara did that.
He only inspires one person at a time, and he's been lucky enough that the people he inspired, like Tsunade and Gaara, were leaders.

Yes you can be an inspirational leader, but you have to be aware that that's what you are. Did he tell Nagato and Obito, "I have gathered a lot of friends with ideas, and they will help me transform the ninja world according to the value of understanding each other"? No, all he says is, "believe in me", and "I will become Hokage". It was good the first ten times but now it's not very satisfying.


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## ch1p (Mar 14, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> The naive answer IS the solution. The good kids who dream are the ones who end up dead at a young age or grow old & bitter. Naruto is going to be the kid who succeeds & changes the world. Shonen > Underdog story > Fiction >



You of course, misunderstand what kind of work you're talking about. That would be fine and dandy if this was a naive work. It isn't. Go watch Gurren Lagann, where characters become stronger just because they believe. Because that's precisely what makes that world go round in there. Believe and you're a stronger MOFO and by the force of believing and asswhopping you establish your rule as supreme. Or Dragon Ball Z, where it's an endless demonstration on how the main character is better than everyone else (with no other kind of depth to it whatsoever). However, this isn't the case with Naruto, with its politics, with its cycle of hatred, with its loneliness, and its pseudo depth. Naruto needs a solution that fits its universe and a naive one won't fit.



Bontakun said:


> Did he tell Nagato and Obito, "I have gathered a lot of friends with ideas, and they will help me transform the ninja world according to the value of understanding each other"?



This is the rabbit that Kishimoto can pull.

However, is it likely? It's true Naruto accomplishes nothing on his own in part II. Gaara only came back to life because of Chyo, Kakuzu got dealt with in a stupid manner but the bottom line is it still took a team effort, Nagato... we can say a lot about how his conversation sucked since he had long since stopped believing in Jiraiya's morals but that doesn't change the fact that Naruto's TnJ was based on Jiraiya's motto after all, Sakura almost got her head cut off at Iron Country because Naruto (and Kakashi, but Naruto is the hero, after all) didn't tell her the truth in Iron Country, Sasuke is still frolicking about despite multiple solo TnJs, Itachi told Naruto to rely on his friends or he'll become Obito, Neji died for _Hinata_ (not just Naruto). Then there's the teamwork theme from part I and Kakashi commenting that Naruto should quit as a ninja because he was just running about by himself (bell test)... but srly, when we have chapters where Naruto takes care of everything, you kind of wonder WTF is Kishimoto trying to pull.

The rabbit is indeed teamwork, cooperation and compromise. Whether it's going to be used or not... When Naruto wants to do everything on his own, has been portrayed a million times doing things on his own, is the chosen one... seems much less likely. I still have hope but it isn't much TBH. I've been disappointed in other works before.


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## fleaky (Mar 14, 2013)

obito and nagato finds answer? really? ...hashi decision= juuby,madara, child death,three war,and more problems than peace...


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## icemaster143 (Mar 14, 2013)

Haters compairing the work of two characters in completely different situations. 

Naruto is a fine leader as long as you don't strawman.

I think it's funny that Kishimoto is wise enough to not have create an actual answer for peace considering that we don't have one in the real world. Yet the people seem to think Naruto should have one outlined already.

Whats also funny is that we are comparing the accomplishments of a man that lived to be at leat 40-50 with that of a 16 year old orphin. 

We know fo ra fact that Hashiramam didn't create the village he dreamed of until much further into his life. People are using the fact that he new what would go into a village(and really what retard wouldn't?) as a gage for his vision as a leader when anyone would tell you half the things he mentioned. 

Hell he didn't even stop kids from dieing like he said he would as children where still on the battle fields.

Honestly what a leader needs is the ability to bring people together and to direct them toward a cause or do you really think every leader was the smartest guy in the room?.

Force of Will. 

Will of Fire.


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## principito (Mar 14, 2013)

To be honest I think this thread is aload of crap.... because everybody is posting nonsense shit without even knowing a damn fact about anything.

first. 
Leader: a person who rules, guides, or inspires others; head
Leadership:  has been described as “a process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task

Now, that being said, no surprise that like any other debate in this god forsaken forum, wankers come in and spill their cum babbling shit about their fav charactert without even knowing what they are talking about.

Hashirama is strong as hell, but good leader? Well we dont fucking know.... as far as the interactions suggest he didnt even keep his own brother in line, he failed to "pass along" his methods and ways of thinking TO HIS OWN GODDAM brother; he was surprised that the uchiha police was created and doesnt like Tobirama's methods.... So he might be stroing and people did whjat he said just for that reason, but Naruto went way ahead and he passed on his phylosophy.... Gaara, Tsunade, Raikage and many others now share his view, and even people in "the next generation" believe in him and by deficition in his methods.

so as fas as leadership goes, Naruto has FACTS that can be evaluated telling us how good or bad of a leader he is... whereas We dont know how Hashirama "lead" but the aftermath suggest he failed in convincing people around him with his own ideas.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 14, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Converting implies that the psychopath is reformed & no longer a threat to society or himself.  But if you're telling me Naruto can do what Shodai.can't, then I agree.



Sasuke killed Konoha's last leader.

No matter how "good" he is at the end, he is still dangerous. He is still a murderer. And he still killed Konoha's last leader.

Inviting him back to Konoha is not being a good leader. It is not considering how the people might feel. It is not taking into account that if someone can be converted and reformed one way, he can just as easily go back the other way.

There is no such thing as a reformed psychopath, especially not an Uchiha. They are genetically predisposed to insanity.

Naruto's obsession with "saving" the man who killed Danzou is very probably the biggest sign that he is not leader material. It is a disgustingly selfish act and repeatedly ignores the feelings of others, jeopardizes Konoha's ties with other villages, and makes him look like an immature, insecure, needy little brat.



AlphaReaver said:


> The naive answer IS the solution. The good kids who dream are the ones who end up dead at a young age or grow old & bitter. Naruto is going to be the kid who succeeds & changes the world. Shonen > Underdog story > Fiction >



Being the Child of Prophecy destined to change the world is not being the underdog...

The only underdogs here are Madara and Obito.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

also this whole obsession with 'conversion' is ridiculous

there should not be some paradigm going on which says that it's possible to convert any villain, and if you can't, then you're somehow inferior

naruto converted nagato, not because of any remotely believable actions on his part, but because kishi threw everything about nagato out of the window and _let_ him be converted

it counts for shit

i assess 'conversions' on a case-by-case basis, because there are several factors to consider: how dedicated the villain is to what he wants; how much visible potential there is for him to be 'good'; whether or not the events of the plot can effectively show him that he should change; and whether or not the hero can convincingly make a case for him to change

those are the four main things. and if you test nagato's 'conversion' against them, it fails in every respect except for there originally being some potential for him to be 'good'


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 14, 2013)

The villains are a product of a shit world & you guys are mad that the only kid who can change those villains is also the only kid who will fix the world? Lol. I don't think Naruto is the right manga for you lol.

People say I'm discredited for sayin lil wayne was a better leader than einstein? Wow. Look at the fads & horrible trends that wayne has led the youth of today into: tightass skinny jeans, "swag" vocabulary, wannabe rockstar personas, "lean" drinkin & drake dickridin. All dumb, but all acts of influence. Now tell me who has einstein lead, despite his great ideas, theories & intellingence? Aight then, shut up.

They say Naruto is not a naive work, I never said it was. I said Naruto is a individual with the mysterious ability to make people place faith in him. Yo he even inspired Kabuto!! Naruto has more leadership feats than anybody. The only person you can say is better than him is Rikudo & when he conquers Juubi & it's hate, he will have surpassed him. Naruto made the choices that made him the child of prophecy. He coulda been a bum, he was a bum, but he wanted to do better & he managed to lead his way to the top. It was HIS will & actions & leadership that got him to this point. How many times would he be dead had he not persuaded Kyuubi to give him power, sexy jutsu'd 
Jiraiya & Hiruzen to learn Rasengan & Kage Bunshin, lead Sasuke to free Kakashi, jumped in to save sasuke which unlocked Sharingan & Kyuubi & a shit load of other things.

The reason we don't have peace in this world is due to evil supernatural agendas. Naruto worls doesn't have that problem, so I do believe peace will be possible. Besides Naruto is unprecedented.

God forgives & a saviour should be one who preaches & teaches love & peace. People are so absorbed in selfishness that they don't even see the importance of this manga in perspective to real world events.

I am convinced that only haters of Naruto & wankers of other characters will try to belittle mr Uzumaki's feats & potential.

He allowed Land of Waves to prosper, Konoha, Sand, as well & made allies with the Rain.
You guys says Naruto only inspires leaders? Well guess what? A person who rules rulers is called an Emperor. Hashirama was a mere High King, but Naruto is about to be crowned mothafuckin Emperor!

Don't hate him, love him, it will ease your butthurt later on lol.
Itachi endorsed him. Minato endorsed him. Jiraiya endorsed him. Nagato endorsed him. Tsunade endorsed him. Gaara endorsed him. Oonoki endorsed him. Kakashi endosed him. Madara & Obito are worried & are about to endorse him. When Hashirama meets Naruto you people are gonna cry & I'll be here to say "I Told You So" I told you with Tobito & I told you with Madara being a Failure. Now you guys are gonna see Hashirama pass the torch to the TRUE God Of Shinobi!


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## Milliardo (Mar 14, 2013)

principito said:


> To be honest I think this thread is aload of crap.... because everybody is posting nonsense shit without even knowing a damn fact about anything.
> 
> first.
> Leader: a person who rules, guides, or inspires others; head
> ...



why do you act like all a leader does is inspire people??? i think you are doing that because thats the only thing naruto has going for him.. even then it seems to be more of a shonen thing.

when it comes to assigning teams for a mission or an actual plan to change the the shinobi system naruto has did jackshit. he hasn't he even technincally lead anybody yet. i think shikamaru would have to hold his hand the whole time.

it comes down to kishi's writing and hes not really selling that naruto is a great leader..


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> People say I'm discredited for sayin lil wayne was a better leader than einstein? Wow. Look at the fads & horrible trends that wayne has led the youth of today into: tightass skinny jeans, "swag" vocabulary, wannabe rockstar personas, "lean" drinkin & drake dickridin. All dumb, but all acts of influence. Now tell me who has einstein lead, despite his great ideas, theories & intellingence? Aight then, shut up.



pictured: a cultural anthropologist



> The reason we don't have peace in this world is due to evil supernatural agendas.



...



> God forgives & a saviour should be one who preaches & teaches love & peace. People are so absorbed in selfishness that they don't even see the importance of this manga in perspective to real world events.



are you genuinely twelve


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## Es (Mar 14, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> The villains are a product of a shit world & you guys are mad that the only kid who can change those villains is also the only kid who will fix the world? Lol. I don't think Naruto is the right manga for you lol.
> 
> People say I'm discredited for sayin lil wayne was a better leader than einstein? Wow. Look at the fads & horrible trends that wayne has led the youth of today into: tightass skinny jeans, "swag" vocabulary, wannabe rockstar personas, "lean" drinkin & drake dickridin. All dumb, but all acts of influence. Now tell me who has einstein lead, despite his great ideas, theories & intellingence? Aight then, shut up.
> 
> ...


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 14, 2013)

^ Actually you have carefully ignored quite a few of my posts, such as my counter to your numbers game and my explanation for why bringing murderers back into the fold is not being a good leader.



AlphaReaver said:


> People say I'm discredited for sayin lil wayne was a better leader than einstein? Wow. Look at the fads & horrible trends that wayne has led the youth of today into: tightass skinny jeans, "swag" vocabulary, wannabe rockstar personas, "lean" drinkin & drake dickridin. All dumb, but all acts of influence. Now tell me who has einstein lead, despite his great ideas, theories & intellingence? Aight then, shut up.



I don't even need to think I need to go over the rest of your post because this is clearly going nowhere. *You measure how good a leader is by how many people they hold sway over and how much they can convince their people to do.

You must love Hitler, Stalin, and every other totalitarian sociopath who has led millions of people to commit acts of unfathomable evil.*

This is fucking disgusting.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 14, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Implying we want changed villains.
> 
> Because that is always a sign of brilliant writing, after all.
> 
> ...



I actually addressed the murderers stuff. Love > Hate. See Pain, Gaara, etc.
The numbers shit was stupid because despite the numbers, the 5villages are different parties. Plus the samurai. Different parties = different reps. 5 villages = 5 votes. 2 clans = 2 votes. GG tho.

The manga is about bonds, friendship & understanding. Naruto can relate to & understand everybody. He is a champion of the misundersood & he makes them believe that he can solve their problems.

You mad because bad people can be great leaders? Gangfounders have commited many despicable acts, but noone dares question their leadership. Being a good person who leads doesn't make one a good leader. I dunno know about you but in my community the drug dealers & gangbangers lead better than the preachers & teachers.

Don't be mad because Naruto is a better leader than the guy who made Madara's clan shit on him. Hashirama will annoint Naruto himself when they meet.


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## fleaky (Mar 14, 2013)

no. Hitler and Stalin more like Madara... kill all weak,dissent and establish world domination


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

so in summary

> a supernatural menace is causing our world's ills
> only rappers are aware of this
> lil wayne, one such rapper, is an influential world leader
> his contribution to humanity is far greater than einstein's
> the founders of gangs are excellent leaders
> potentially linking back into how only rappers know the truth beyond the veil


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 14, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> I actually addressed the murderers stuff. Love > Hate. See Pain, Gaara, etc.
> The numbers shit was stupid because despite the numbers, the 5villages are different parties. Plus the samurai. Different parties = different reps. 5 villages = 5 votes. 2 clans = 2 votes. GG tho.
> 
> The manga is about bonds, friendship & understanding. Naruto can relate to & understand everybody. He is a champion of the misundersood & he makes them believe that he can solve their problems.
> ...



You believe those who deal death and rape are better leaders than those who genuinely love their people.

Every time you type something, you only further prove my point. Your definition of a good leader is a person who leads a lot of people and influences them to do things, regardless of how bad those things may be. If these are your standards of what it takes to be a leader, then all of your arguments about how Naruto is a good leader go up in smoke. There is something very wrong, and very disturbing, about that mindset, as well as pathetically contradictory to your claims of being a Christian. 

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a greater leader than Adolf Hitler ever was.  

I'm done with you.



PS - There is a world of difference between being the most effective leader, and being the greatest in terms of benefitting your people.


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## Es (Mar 14, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> so in summary
> 
> > a supernatural menace is causing our world's ills
> > only rappers are aware of this
> ...



It all makes sense. He's the only one who knows the Astragius Galaxy is ruled in secrecy by a reality warping computer and it's worshipers


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm not debating a person's contribution to society. I'm debating LEADERSHIP. The word twistin out here is remarkable lol. A leader leads! He might led you into paradise or hell but if you follow him, he is a leader.

Lucaniel you clearly have nothing to say. I will put you on the ignore list okay?

People fail to see celebrities as people of influence, what world are we living in? Like jordan didn't sell us a million sneakers jus by addin his name to them lol.

Naruto's ability to influence others to join his cause is unmatched! He is the best leader. He is the alpha male of this manga. Like it or not. This is the truth & Kishi will shove it down your throat if you show resistance.

The mob mentality will do nothing against the truth. The fact remains: Naruto is good at getting people to believe in him, & thus has good leadership.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> I'm not debating a person's contribution to society. I'm debating LEADERSHIP. The word twistin out here is remarkable lol. A leader leads! He might led you into paradise or hell but if you follow him, he is a leader.



this just in

apparently using terms associated with 'swag culture' counts as 'following' lil wayne



> Lucaniel you clearly have nothing to say. I will put you on the ignore list okay?



just as long as you keep plopping out these chestnuts


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## Es (Mar 14, 2013)

Bender levels of debating prowess


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 14, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> this just in
> 
> apparently using terms associated with 'swag culture' counts as 'following' lil wayne
> 
> ...



Welcome to the list!  Enjoy your stay in "Alphareaverdoesnotgiveafuckaboutyouropinionland" 

#Swag


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> Welcome to the list!  Enjoy your stay in "Alphareaverdoesnotgiveafuckaboutyouropinionla nd"
> 
> #Swag



i am stricken. stabbed right through my heart by addition to your ignore list

how will i ever survive this 

will you pay my therapy bills alphareaver, you monster? will you?


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## OtherGalaxy (Mar 14, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> The mob mentality will do nothing against the truth. The fact remains: Naruto is good at getting people to believe in him, & thus has good leadership.





He's good at one thing which suddenly makes him good at the other.
Ok then.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

being fair

people believing in you is fairly important for a leader

and that would be a semi-valid point if it was naruto _getting people to believe in him_, and not people randomly being afflicted by a massive case of the dumbs

which left them susceptible to feeling naruto's half-baked moralising and extreme optimism somehow constituted a revolutionary manifesto


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## OtherGalaxy (Mar 14, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> being fair
> 
> people believing in you is fairly important for a leader
> 
> ...



Oh I'm not denying that
But "people believe in him thus he's a good leader" as an analogy seems off to me

They could be complete idiots for example, yet they believed in you, that doesn't make you a good leader at all.

Koon from ToG is an example of what a good leader is.
Naruto is definitely not.


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## ch1p (Mar 14, 2013)

icemaster143 said:


> Haters compairing the work of two characters in completely different situations.



It does not matter if they are two situations. We're discussing the capacity for each to be a leader.

Furthermore, Hashirama rallied up people to fight and live under his wing. The same for the five kages, who lead whole organisations, the same with Nagato and Akatsuki (it helped no one knew who he was, Yahiko was the better leader in that case, and all things considering it was Tobito doing all the background leading after all). Naruto has inspired one person at the time. Jsut by default, Naruto is not a leader.



> I think it's funny that Kishimoto is wise enough to not have create an actual answer for peace considering that we don't have one in the real world. Yet the people seem to think Naruto should have one outlined already.



What I think it's funny is that you missed the part where Kishimoto introduced the end of the cycle of hatred as viable and then gave it to Naruto. See, of course it's unreasonable to think such a plan exists, since IRL it doesn't and from what we've seen of the Naruto-verse, it doesn't seem like it's possible either. However, Kishimoto made a prophecy about someone who'd end it, he established said person as Naruto. As such, there are expectations that Naruto will end the circle of hatred.

Like I said, it was all fine when Naruto was just a kid making a name for himself, but now we have a different scenario, the destiny child bullshit. So unless Naruto is going to end up admitting ending the cycle of hatred is impossible and that they will always have war, then he must come up with a plan that will work. That is the weight of Naruto being the chosen one. He must come with the answer, unless this manga subverts itself in the end, which considering this manga's positive outlook all along, then it's impossible.



> Whats also funny is that we are comparing the accomplishments of a man that lived to be at leat 40-50 with that of a 16 year old orphin.
> 
> We know for a fact that Hashiramam didn't create the village he dreamed of until much further into his life. People are using the fact that he new what would go into a village(and really what retard wouldn't?) as a gage for his vision as a leader when anyone would tell you half the things he mentioned.



That is yet another problem. Hashirama's life is of no matter, because it can be told in flashbacks. As such, all of his life can be relevant. It doesn't matter if he's 5, 15, 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 75... Flashbacks will home in on the specifics and the rest is history. However, Naruto's story is when he's a thirteen year old and then a sixteen year old. Whatever he manages at 25, 35, 45, 55, 65 is irrelevant, because we're not going to see it. This particular plot was introduced halfway in part II and the war right now is due to said plot as well. If Naruto is to come up with a solution, it must be in the _present_ because it's at this moment that the story is taking place. Kishimoto has already said there won't be more timeskips and the manga is ending in a 1,5 years or so. You might think it's unfair, I won't disagree, but the way the scenario is being laid Naruto really must come with the answer at 16 and that's it. And it must be a really good solution, because he is the chosen one.

See why the chosen one is bullshit? These are some of the many reasons why.



> Hell he didn't even stop kids from dieing like he said he would as children where still on the battle fields.



And? Hashirama isn't the chosen one. 



> Honestly what a leader needs is the ability to bring people together and to direct them toward a cause or do you really think every leader was the smartest guy in the room?.



Naruto has only inspired one person at a time, except for when he defeated Neji at the Chunin exams and he made the whole stadium cheer for him (which is very different from inspiring them all, mind you).



> Force of Will.
> 
> Will of Fire.



Believe it.



principito said:


> Hashirama is strong as hell, but good leader? Well we dont fucking know.... as far as the interactions suggest he didnt even keep his own brother in line, he failed to "pass along" his methods and ways of thinking TO HIS OWN GODDAM brother; he was surprised that the uchiha police was created and doesnt like Tobirama's methods.... So he might be stroing and people did whjat he said just for that reason, but Naruto went way ahead and he passed on his phylosophy.... Gaara, Tsunade, Raikage and many others now share his view, and even people in "the next generation" believe in him and by deficition in his methods.



Hashirama made the Leaf. He's by default a better leader than 99% of the naruto-verse.

The fact that he couldn't keep his brother in line says nothing about his leadership skills. A leader is not a dictator. He cannot make all bow to their will. Naruto knows that one well. He could never keep Sasuke in line either. Is Naruto not a good leader because of Sasuke then? It's the truth, according to your example of Tobirama.

Naruto inspiring leaders doesn't make him a leader. It just makes him someone that creates leaders.



> so as fas as leadership goes, Naruto has FACTS that can be evaluated telling us how good or bad of a leader he is... whereas We dont know how Hashirama "lead" but the aftermath suggest he failed in convincing people around him with his own ideas.



Hashirama failed, that's why the Leaf is still standing. But Naruto has feats as leadership, when he has never lead anyone by his own self (this war was put up by the five kages, not Naruto) in his damn life.

To say nothing on the fact that kicking arse really is of no consequence. Being a leader doesn't eman being a fighter.



PikaCheeka said:


> Naruto's obsession with "saving" the man who killed Danzou is very probably the biggest sign that he is not leader material. It is a disgustingly selfish act and repeatedly ignores the feelings of others, jeopardizes Konoha's ties with other villages, and makes him look like an immature, insecure, needy little brat.



I agree with this. Naruto might want to chase after his friend all he wants, but it is a selfish need he has. Either for his sake or for Sasuke's (who has very different views from what Naruto wants, so this isn't for Sasuke's sake at all), it's still just two people. It's not the village at large, and as you say, he's not leader material at all. When he told the Rookie 12 that he'd deal with Sasuke and then all of them went behind his back to do what they thought was best, that should have been when the first shoe dropped. When he didn't trust his friends with the truth and just kept it to himself, putting Lee / Kiba / Sai / Sakura in danger, the other shoe should have dropped. Then he said if he needed, he'd die with Sasuke. There aren't any more shoes to drop, but srly, his selfish need takes precedence over his friends and his village, the people he needs to lead if he really wants to be Hokage. Naruto has no clue of what he's doing. I just hope Kishimoto does.



> Being the Child of Prophecy destined to change the world is not being the underdog...
> 
> The only underdogs here are Madara and Obito.



I don't even know how to say about this, besides _yeah_. How can you be an underdog and then be the destined guy that will save the world?



Lucaniel said:


> also this whole obsession with 'conversion' is ridiculous
> 
> there should not be some paradigm going on which says that it's possible to convert any villain, and if you can't, then you're somehow inferior
> 
> ...



The only saving grace of Nagato's conversion is that Nagato is a dumbass who's easily swayed by stupid plans, according to that flashback of Obito. If it had been Yahiko in his place, he would have told Naruto where to shove that book. Much like Sasuke does every time. 

---So not gonna tackle AlphaReaver's post. 

edit: holy shit this thread grew while I took a bath. I forgot to hit post before.



Lucaniel said:


> this is truly the gift that keeps on giving



I love him.  Then again, I'm easily amused.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 14, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> He's good at one thing which suddenly makes him good at the other.
> Ok then.



Getting people to follow you is what makes you a leader. Do you need a dictionary? Get jiggy wit it!


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> So not gonna tackle AlphaReaver's post.



it's like you have something against conspiracy theories, catchphrase regurgitation, mindless and uncritical cheerleading of naruto's storyline, and accusations of butthurt held together by a wildly incongruous gangsta aesthetic


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## Toby (Mar 14, 2013)

hcheng02 and I have had this discussion and we see strong similarities between the Naruto ninja village system and the emergence of the modern nation state. There is also a strong Biblical theme to Naruto's role as the savior of the world, not just the Konoha village. As such, he is a system-changer, and more so than Hashirama. The most obvious evidence of this so far is the united ninja army, which is a transformed multinational entity that surpasses the ninja village system set in place by Hashirama and Madara.

So in terms of political legacy, Naruto is on par with changing the world as Hashirama did, and will probably have a much longer lasting effect. 

Let us go back to comparing his world with our own. One of the major features of the modern state system is the codification of war into a set of rules. In the Naruverse, child soldiers are still a common feature. Naruto might abolish child soldiers if he becomes Hokage (or the new Sage). That would allow him to surpass Hashirama in terms of leadership just fine. He would adopt a set of standards of universal decency among nations, basic principles that would allow nations to judge and respect one another by a common law.

More likely, he will find a lasting agreement to permanent peace between the villages. The origin of the ninja world as we know it stems from the great Sage's religion. His vision of a unified world was impossible to complete during his lifetime, and he realized this. But he foresaw that the world would improve with time, and set in order a series of events that would lead to the "second coming" of his Christ-like figure. Naruto represents this character, as prophesied by the great toad sage and Jiraiya.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 14, 2013)

Toby said:


> hcheng02 and I have had this discussion and we see strong similarities between the Naruto ninja village system and the emergence of the modern nation state. There is also a strong Biblical theme to Naruto's role as the savior of the world, not just the Konoha village. As such, he is a system-changer, and more so than Hashirama. The most obvious evidence of this so far is the united ninja army, which is a transformed multinational entity that surpasses the ninja village system set in place by Hashirama and Madara.
> 
> So in terms of political legacy, Naruto is on par with changing the world as Hashirama did, and will probably have a much longer lasting effect.
> 
> ...



A Beautiful post that I strongly agree with.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> hcheng02 and I have had this discussion and we see strong similarities between the Naruto ninja village system and the emergence of the modern nation state. There is also a strong Biblical theme to Naruto's role as the savior of the world, not just the Konoha village. As such, he is a system-changer, and more so than Hashirama.



not sure how what you said, in terms of the strong similarities you perceive between the ninja villages and modern states, and the biblical theme, allows you to conclude that he's more of a system-changer than hashirama

the preceding statements just do not add up to your claim



> The most obvious evidence of this so far is the united ninja army, which is a transformed multinational entity that surpasses the ninja village system set in place by Hashirama and Madara.



that's a temporary cessation of hostilities caused by the common threat of 'madara', and naruto was not pivotal in creating it



> So in terms of political legacy, Naruto is on par with changing the world as Hashirama did, and will probably have a much longer lasting effect.



- he didn't cause that change
- there's no proof that it will



> Let us go back to comparing his world with our own. One of the major features of the modern state system is the codification of war into a set of rules. In the Naruverse, child soldiers are still a common feature. Naruto might abolish child soldiers if he becomes Hokage (or the new Sage). That would allow him to surpass Hashirama in terms of leadership just fine.



> might

he hasn't so far. speculative. and that would constitute a moral improvement, but ascribing it entirely to naruto ignores the fact that if hashirama had not created the hidden village system in the first place, there would be no foundation for the events of the present day which eventually allow this to happen. so



> He would adopt a set of standards of universal decency among nations, basic principles that would allow nations to judge and respect one another by a common law



that presupposes an in-depth understanding of legislation and ethics that naruto has never even remotely displayed



> More likely, he will find a lasting agreement to permanent peace between the villages. The origin of the ninja world as we know it stems from the great Sage's religion. His vision of a unified world was impossible to complete during his lifetime, and he realized this. But he foresaw that the world would improve with time, and set in order a series of events that would lead to the "second coming" of his Christ-like figure. Naruto represents this character, as prophesied by the great toad sage and Jiraiya.



meh

that's incidental

it doesn't say anything for his intrinsic leadership ability


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## principito (Mar 14, 2013)

Milliardo said:


> why do you act like all a leader does is inspire people??? i think you are doing that because thats the only thing naruto has going for him.. even then it seems to be more of a shonen thing.
> 
> *when it comes to assigning teams for a mission or an actual plan to change the the shinobi system naruto has did jackshit*. he hasn't he even technincally lead anybody yet. i think shikamaru would have to hold his hand the whole time.
> 
> it comes down to kishi's writing and hes not really selling that naruto is a great leader..



I think you are confusing the Leader with the tactitian...

Leader involves having and idea, be convicted to it and being able to convince other people to follow u; that's a leader. Tactics in teams and mission? those are your parameters to asses leadership? you have much to learn young padawan


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> I think you are confusing the Leader with the tactitian...
> 
> Leader involves having and idea, be convicted to it and being able to convince other people to follow u; that's a leader



yes

that's it

that's all a leader has to do


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## HoriMaori (Mar 14, 2013)

Wait, are we arguing about each persons ability to amass followers, or their ability to make decisions that lead the followers to prosperity?


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

whether it's politics, or business, or a social revolution, or a military coup, or, for the sake of argument, establishing a ninja village

all you need is an idea and the ability to make some people follow you

all the pesky stuff to do with delegation, resource management, tactics and strategy, public relations, and so on, just _magically happens_


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## BiNexus (Mar 14, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> ^ Actually you have carefully ignored quite a few of my posts, such as my counter to your numbers game and my explanation for why bringing murderers back into the fold is not being a good leader.
> 
> I don't even need to think I need to go over the rest of your post because this is clearly going nowhere. *You measure how good a leader is by how many people they hold sway over and how much they can convince their people to do.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter a single bit if he has a monument to Hitler or Stalin in his room.There is no question that they were great leaders; this includes the idealistic leaders . They were great leaders, but, in the case of Hitler and Stalin, are not necessarily illustrious and regarded as _good people_. Proof? , , , . 

You willfully impose your preconceived notions of things and are berating him for a fact that should not even be in contention. 



> [...]
> PS - There is a world of difference between being the most effective leader, and being the greatest in terms of benefitting your people.



There is also a difference between an illustrious leader and being regarded as striving for a "good" cause by the annals of history and being a great leader.



Lucaniel said:


> not sure how what you said, in terms of the strong similarities you perceive between the ninja villages and modern states, and the biblical theme, allows you to conclude that he's more of a system-changer than hashirama
> 
> the preceding statements just do not add up to your claim



Hashirama's "change" was . He simply organized the killings, and changed the outwardly appearance of the world. It was still very much the same at its core. The combining of the Uchiha and the Senju caused the other clans to form their own alliances to hope to balance against this super power; lest they felt threatened and combined against the two as the alliance are doing now against Madara and Obito. Hashirama must have felt this way too--for he dispersed the Bijuu as a sign of goodwill, however it resulted in more or less an . Naruto's change would not be epiperipheral, for reasons Pika has outlined, but arguably misrepresented. 



> that's a temporary cessation of hostilities caused by the common threat of 'madara', and naruto was not pivotal in creating it


This is a given, and a point I won't dispute. But it reeks of , and I would say that the important thing would be to look at what happens after the war. 



> - he didn't cause that change
> - there's no proof that it will



He has caused change, however not on the scale that you deem fit to recognize. There is proof that he will, but you choose to chalk that up to bad writing on the part of the manga.



> > might
> 
> 
> he hasn't so far. speculative. and that would constitute a moral improvement, but ascribing it entirely to naruto ignores the fact that if hashirama had not created the hidden village system in the first place, there would be no foundation for the events of the present day which eventually allow this to happen. so


This is a terrible argument as we could say the Sage provided the conditions for this all to happen, and go farther than that ad infinitum. 



> that presupposes an in-depth understanding of legislation and ethics that naruto has never even remotely displayed


This is true, in regards to legislation. In regards to ethics? 



> meh
> 
> that's incidental
> 
> it doesn't say anything for his intrinsic leadership ability


That is incidental? I'll quote you from earlier in this post:



> ...if hashirama had not created the hidden village system in the first place, there would be no foundation for the events of the present day which eventually allow this to happen.


 But this is not? 



Bontakun said:


> Naruto will *never* surpass Hashirama now.
> 
> [...]


That's the word that sparked this entire thing, I'm sure of it. People throwing absolutes out like candy when the manga is not over.

This thread should not still be open. It's essentially two sides throwing their own preconceived notions of what leadership is at each other, tinged with their own perceptions of which character is better. The same arguments have been recycled multiple times and it's going nowhere. .


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## Toby (Mar 14, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> not sure how what you said, in terms of the strong similarities you perceive between the ninja villages and modern states, and the biblical theme, allows you to conclude that he's more of a system-changer than hashirama
> 
> the preceding statements just do not add up to your claim
> 
> ...



Cut and slaughter debate style

I had time for that style in high school but not now. Let me address some of the points you made in response to mine:

1. My language is sometimes speculative.

True, so is yours. Welcome to literary analysis. We are not debating facts here. I study politics and statistics for a living, and I can tell the two apart. This is not a place where facts hold the same ground as they do in academia. Kishimoto has a tendency to surprise his readers with plot-twists, introducing new characters, motives, etc. to change the story. 

So when I speculate, it is not unnatural, but a part of the game. 

2. Why do I speculate, I mean what sort of reasons are there for speculation in a manga?

Well, for one, it is interesting. That is why we read it after all. Second, there is the fact that some things can in fact be predicted, and a lot of the stuff we can predict in Naruto - and other mangas - is based on powerful literary devices. The most powerful device in storytelling is called foreshadowing.

Foreshadowing is when a character says something that alludes to a future event. It can take many other forms too, but in the case of Naruto this definition is just fine.

At this point it is well established in the storyline that there is an ideological alignment in the Naruverse called the "Sage". He is the progenitor of all jutsu, the founder of the religion which passed on the artform which created the ninja groups in the world of Naruto. The Sage is also responsible for the destruction of the greatest evil in the world of the ninja, and the separation of the tailed beasts. He foresaw the end of all conflict in the ninja world, and if that means anything, then it is a prophecy. The fact that several other characters, such as the toad sage and Jiraiya, all believe that a peacebringer will be born, a "revolutionary", who will "make people understand one another" - suggests that the prophecy of peace, born in the second coming of the Sage, has purchase for the story. To give the prophecy purchase within the world of Naruto, Kishimoto has made several characters take on partial aspects of the Sage.

This alignment of characters includes several important characters. Just naming three major ones here: Hashirama, Jiraiya and Naruto.

That's three of the most important characters in the plot structure and in the lore. Kishimoto has drawn a red string between all of them. They seek peace, an end to hostilities, and they all play a role in developing the great plan of the Sage: Peace on earth. Hashirama built Konoha with Madara, and defied destiny. Jiraiya trained a hokage and became godfather to his son who, in turn, is the child of prophecy. This there is no doubt of now. The point of the Pain Act was to show that there is no doubt about who that child is. It is Naruto. And he will surpass Hashirama, because that is part of his role in this story. I am not saying he is a better person than him, but this is part of the Sage prophecy.

Because this is a shounen, Kishimoto chooses to illustrate his story with soem depth and with literary symbolism. The sage mode fighting style for example is a manifestation of the Sage's beliefs. He draws on external energy, not internal energy - and he is therefore unlike all other ninja.

This symbolizes Naruto's strength to draw upon people around him, and make them believe in him. As pointed out to him by Itachi, he has lived a life believing a somewhat backwards statement: "I will become Hokage and make everybody recognize me!" 

No, Itachi points out. Being recognized by everybody is what makes you Hokage.

And this is what happens throughout the entire fucking manga. So when people don't get the plot of messianic conversions, they miss a large part of the story. Naruto is known to the Hokage first as a threat to the village's security, and second as a guarantor of it. Just like his own townspeople, the entire world has come to understand his power and believe in him.

That is why there is a united ninja world army. The kage summit was an exercise in understanding and developing trust. This trust could never have arisen without the role played by Naruto in securing peace between Konoha and the Sand, and the Lightning country. 

Again, if you think this interpretation is far-fetched, then take a chill pill and think about what we know for certain about Naruto. It's a shounen, and it has plot-twists. I don't foresee Naruto becoming some small character. A shounen almost invariably ends with the protagonist becoming some godlike figure. For me, putting together the piece of the puzzle of the Sage, the tailed beasts, and Naruto - is a pretty obvious one.

It would be far too simplistic to make Naruto just another hokage. He has already changed the world, and therefore he has changed himself as well. If people refuse to see him as the second Sage, then I have to ask them why is he now physically manifesting himself as one? To me, that's a clue. A big one. From what I can tell, he is more of a sage master than Jiraiya, and I would wager he is better than Hashirama too. Far-fetched? Eh. This manga isn't over yet.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> Hashirama's "change" was epiperipheral. He simply organized the killings, and changed the outwardly appearance of the world. It was still very much the same at its core. The combining of the Uchiha and the Senju caused the other clans to form their own alliances to hope to balance against this super power; lest they felt threatened and combined against the two as the alliance are doing now against Madara and Obito. Hashirama must have felt this way too, for he dispersed the Bijuu as a sign of goodwill, however it resulted in more or less an Arm's Race. Naruto's change would not be epiperipheral, for reasons Pika has outlined, but arguably misrepresented.



hashirama did all a single realistically-written individual can hope to do: he managed to stop children being turned into cannon fodder, organised warring mercenary clans into states, and reduced the body count by doing so. he didn't end war, and if you expected him to end war, you're an idiot. his achievements are realistic and plausible

the distribution of the bijuu was a good idea. it helped maintain an equilibrium of power between the villages. if he had kept all of them, he would have had to face them united, and likely cause the most massive loss of life in any war in history. 



> This is a given, and a point I won't dispute. But it reeks of Balance of Power, and I would say that the important thing would be to look at what happens after the war. I have already made my point about the Soviet Union and the US being allies in WW2 and becoming bitter rivals and enemies during the period of the Cold War.



i...don't think you're refuting my point, so okay



> He has caused change, however not on the scale that you deem fit to recognize. There is proof that he will, but you choose to chalk that up to bad writing on the part of the manga.



well, yeah...because it is



> This is a terrible argument as we could say the Sage provided the conditions for this all to happen, and go farther than that ad infinitum.



no, because that's pointlessly reductive, and my argument is grounded in seeing social change as a continual line of progression from the initial point - of mercenary clans engaged in continuous and unceasing war - to an eventual, imagined era of total peace.

naruto could well help the world along that line of progression, but he is starting from hashirama having moved it some distance along that path already



> This is true, in regards to legislation. In regards to ethics? Find me the definition of ethics you're using.



a clear sense of moral goals in terms of minimising war and death and bloodshed, grounded in an understanding of the rules of human behaviour in terms of the individual and aggregate



> That is incidental? I'll quote you from earlier in this post:
> 
> But this is not?



yes

naruto's being the saviour is incidental

it's a role that was decided for him at birth, apparently

hashirama had no such favourable confluence of fortune to aid him. my point about what he did isn't incidental, because he *did* it


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

Toby said:


> Cut and slaughter debate style
> 
> I had time for that style in high school but not now. Let me address some of the points you made in response to mine:
> 
> ...



pretty much all of this is tangential to the actual point, as far as i'm concerned

it is well-established that naruto is the child of prophecy, the living confluence of several beliefs regarding peace, friendship, fairness, passed down from the senju and the will of fire and whatnot, and that he will eventually save the world

yes

great

but all of that is _completely irrelevant_ to the reader's perception of naruto's actual ability

all of this lengthy exposition of his role within the story and within the greater mythology of the manga is only obfuscating, and preventing a clear, hard look, at what naruto has actually accomplished, how believable it is, and whether what he has done is, within the world kishimoto has created - of real, cynical mercenaries engaged in bloody warfare - actually credulous, or just the result of extreme contrivance


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## Toby (Mar 14, 2013)

> but all of that is completely irrelevant to the reader's perception of naruto's actual ability
> 
> all of this lengthy exposition of his role within the story and within the greater mythology of the manga is only obfuscating, and preventing a clear, hard look, at what naruto has actually accomplished, how believable it is, and whether what he has done is, within the world kishimoto has created - of real, cynical mercenaries engaged in bloody warfare - actually credulous, or just the result of extreme contrivance



Again, you want it to be clear, hard look, etc. 

You want a clear answer? You have one already. Just look at all the characters and groups which were aligned against Naruto and Konoha, and which are now on their side.

Naruto has converted these people, beaten others, and made a lot of change in the world. 

If you think an analysis is tangential because I use a factor of analysis that you don't like, then you aren't suited for this. Foreshadowing is pretty important. 



> and whether what he has done is, within the world kishimoto has created - of real, cynical mercenaries engaged in bloody warfare - actually credulous, or just the result of extreme contrivance



Ah but as I have written in many other past posts, it is highly idealistic and unbelievable stuff.

But it is a shounen. And you guys seem to completely gloss over that.

This is not a realistic military history novel. I guarantee you that. I specialize in security studies, and Naruto would have been killed in any wartorn nation to date in human history.

So no, it's not realistic. In fact, most novels pit characters against an unchangeable system which is pessimistic, cynical, etc. and accordingly most historians learn and project those views onto their own analyses of future events.

But, even in our world, there has been massive progress, and it took place through building trust in international institutions, such as the UN, the world trade forum, etc. which work on eliminating poverty, conflict, disease, etc.

You need to realize though, that when you have such high and lofty goals - or any goal worth achieving, it is hard to measure progress if your only unit of measurement is black and white. Progress is a matter of degrees, not just eliminating enemies, institutions, etc.

EDIT: And I almost forgot to say that the most important factor of change is time itself. Just as in our world we needed over two thousand years of pointless war to reach a point of international interconnectedness, Naruto's world needed multiple generations, starting with the arrival of the Sage, the Hokage, the ninja wars, etc. to reach a point of peace. Progress is about degrees, not yard sticks.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 14, 2013)

Toby said:


> hcheng02 and I have had this discussion and we see strong similarities between the Naruto ninja village system and the emergence of the modern nation state. There is also a strong Biblical theme to Naruto's role as the savior of the world, not just the Konoha village. As such, he is a system-changer, and more so than Hashirama. The most obvious evidence of this so far is the united ninja army, which is a transformed multinational entity that surpasses the ninja village system set in place by Hashirama and Madara.
> 
> So in terms of political legacy, Naruto is on par with changing the world as Hashirama did, and will probably have a much longer lasting effect.
> 
> ...



So Hashirama was Moses guiding the ppl to the beginning of a true set up.
And Naruto is Jesus creating the perfection.
I like your biblical theme idea.
Then people will have to decide who is/was a better leader, 'Moses' or 'Jesus'.

I'll give you some advice though, jewish people will not say Jesus, lol.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> Again, you want it to be clear, hard look, etc.
> 
> You want a clear answer? You have one already. Just look at all the characters and groups which were aligned against Naruto and Konoha, and which are now on their side.
> 
> ...


naruto did not convert these people. he 'converted' a few of them: some, believably, and others, by kishi writing them to carry an idiot ball which would be allowed them to be charmed by him. and the vast majority are united by a common threat

naruto has yet to actually change anything in the world. i see nothing he has done so far which looks to have fundamentally changed society, or thinking, or looks likely to be permanent

i don't think your analysis is tangential because i don't like your factor. i think it's tangential because it _is_.


> Ah but as I have written in many other past posts, it is highly idealistic and unbelievable stuff.
> 
> But it is a shounen. And you guys seem to completely gloss over that.



i don't see a single reason to gloss over that simply because it's shounen



> This is not a realistic military history novel. I guarantee you that. I specialize in security studies, and Naruto would have been killed in any wartorn nation to date in human history.



it doesn't need to be a realistic military history novel



> So no, it's not realistic. In fact, most novels pit characters against an unchangeable system which is pessimistic, cynical, etc. and accordingly most historians learn and project those views onto their own analyses of future events.



i'm getting quite tired of this 'it's not quite as realistic as a novel portraying an ossified, unchangeable institution, that's why you feel this way' nonsense

the manga doesn't need to imply that the problem is insurmountable

it just needs to address the genuine immensity of the problem and offer a proportionately far-reaching and insightful solution

it would have been entirely possible for naruto to be written as everything that he is, as in the man who will change the world, and so on, and still be written _credibly_

nothing of the sort is happening. the way he has converted people in part II isn't credible at all. his idiocy and optimism and total lack of social insight, and the constant and repetitive spectacle of people being charmed into obedience by his bullheaded naivete is terrible


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## principito (Mar 14, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> whether it's politics, or business, or a social revolution, or a military coup, or, for the sake of argument, establishing a ninja village
> 
> all you need is an idea and the ability to make some people follow you
> 
> all the pesky stuff to do with delegation, resource management, tactics and strategy, public relations, and so on, just _magically happens_



Well I think your arguments are unfounded and dramatically missplaced.
So yes, one needs delegation and resource management for some kinds of leadership, but there are many different kinds of leaders to begin with. Hashirama like you say was all aware of that, but he neglected the "spiritual" side of it so much that his "system" collapsed into itself and created enemies.

im not saying that makes him a bad leader, but he did fail there.

Naruto might not know the "managerial" side of leading but he has the "emotional or spiritual" side of it right. From my point of view, the guy is 17yo (around) so he has a few years to develop that managerial side of it before he can actually be attacked.

both Naruto and Hashirama are good leaders, I've never said otherwise, but they are clearly different kinds of leaders. but saying that naruto "pales" in comparison is retarded. Naruto has been "leading" for a few months whereas hashirama was in charge for years.


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## Toby (Mar 14, 2013)

Well, on one hand, you say that Kishi is driving the plot by making characters go along with an idiot ball, and you also say that you don't see the need to see this storyline in context with it being in the shounen genre.

That is your problem.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

principito said:
			
		

> Well I think your arguments are unfounded and dramatically missplaced.
> So yes, one needs delegation and resource management for some kinds of leadership, but there are many different kinds of leaders to begin with. Hashirama like you say was all aware of that, but he neglected the "spiritual" side of it so much that his "system" collapsed into itself and created enemies.



i think you have no idea what you're talking about, and are arbitrarily creating mumbo-jumbo categories like the 'spiritual' side to leadership in order to try and give naruto some kudos for essentially being a highly optimistic, naive idiot with no clear moral system, no actual vision, and yet somehow managing to make people think he's the bee's knees

hashirama's system didn't 'collapse into itself', it's still going just fine

before hashirama, there was continual war, and children were being thrown into battle without proper training

after hashirama, there was peace intermittently interrupted by the flaring of hostilities. children still fought, but with the requisite training, and with a genuine chance of getting out of there alive. there was also unity and structure to most people's lives




Toby said:


> Well, on one hand, you say that Kishi is driving the plot by making characters go along with an idiot ball, and you also say that you don't see the need to see this storyline in context with it being in the shounen genre.
> 
> That is your problem.



no

that's your clear misinterpretation of what i'm saying, aided by your own intrinsic implication

that if it's a shounen manga

then lazy storytelling is to be expected

i see no reason to expect poor quality writing simply because it's a shounen



> Ah but as I have written in many other past posts, it is highly idealistic and unbelievable stuff.
> 
> But it is a shounen. And you guys seem to completely gloss over that.



it is entirely possible to believably portray societies in the context of shounen. look at fullmetal alchemist

as far as factoring in the genre goes? i am entirely willing to deal with idealism. which something like fma has. and a relatively cursory treatment given to social change and reaction. again, fma's guilty.

but _even with those considerations_, naruto is just awful. and that's the bottom line


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 14, 2013)

1) Why do people think Naruto is actually going to abolish the shinobi system when he still wants to be not only the greatest ninja of all time, but also the Hokage, a title that in itself implies separate villages with their own shinobi armies... He needs to make up his mind as to what he wants. He hasn't even been able to figure out that his two wishes are incompatible. 

2) Naruto did not unite the shinobi villages. It's very bizarre that so many people are still implying that he did _anything_ there.

3) Naruto is not and never will be anything like Christ. Considering the way Christianity is treated in Japan, I don't think that was ever Kishi's intention, either. Bringing the Bible into this argument is just an utterly idiotic idea.


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## BiNexus (Mar 14, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> hashirama did all a single realistically-written individual can hope to do: he managed to stop *children being turned into cannon fodder*,



We have no evidence of this being the case. . Children are still being used, en masse. This may not be the case in the Hidden Leaf (however we have evidence to the contrary), but when you posit that he changed this on a systematic level, i.e. including the other ninja villages, we know this isn't.



> organised warring mercenary clans into states, and reduced the body count by doing so. he didn't end war, and if you expected him to end war, you're an idiot. his achievements are realistic and plausible



He set the precedent for the ninja world; this is not up for dispute. But how the other ninja villages formed is murky. We have no clue as to whether he sat down and delegated with the others, as you and others that agree with you seem to be leaning to, or if the threat of the Uchiha+Senju alliance forced them to forge their own alliances; their own villages. Maybe the flashback will give us insight to this. I did not expect him to end war, as I have already said in this thread.



> the distribution of the bijuu was a good idea. it helped maintain an equilibrium of power between the villages. if he had kept all of them, *he would have had to face them united, and likely cause the most massive loss of life in any war in history*.



Therein you just proved my point; the world Hashirama made would have fallen apart without the arms race. The Uchiha+Senju alliance seems to be the driving force of the ninja world that Hashirama thought of and not, initially, smart delegation. That is a pretty coercive relationship. With that in mind, it seems like the system was formed upon coercion, and held together with an arms race. 



> i...don't think you're refuting my point, so okay



In a way, yes, yes I am. I contend with you putting forth that the alliance that Obito and Madara have put forth is sufficient and will last, without Naruto's help. I am not disputing the fact that Obito and Madara caused the alliance to come together and fight a common enemy.



> well, yeah...because it is


According to your opinions, of which you are entitled to. Don't try to use the "bad writing" argument as a fact.



> no, because that's pointlessly reductive, and my argument is grounded in seeing social change as a continual line of progression from the initial point - of mercenary clans engaged in continuous and unceasing war - to an eventual, imagined era of total peace.
> 
> naruto could well help the world along that line of progression, but he is starting from hashirama having moved it some distance along that path already



The fact that he is starting from a point that has been tailored and tweaked by Hashirama and many, many others, that have also moved it along its line of progression should not be up for debate. 



> he hasn't so far. speculative. and that would constitute a moral improvement, but ascribing it entirely to *naruto ignores the fact that if hashirama had not created the hidden village system in the first place, there would be no foundation for the events of the present day which eventually allow this to happen*



However you attribute the success, and, *even the possibility of conception*, of Naruto's goal to be linked to Hashirama. Thus, the situation could be vastly different in Hashirama's own case if the Sage had not done what he did. 



> a clear sense of moral goals in terms of minimising war and death and bloodshed, grounded in an understanding of the rules of human behaviour in terms of the individual and aggregate



You said that Naruto has not displayed and understanding of legislation and ethics. Legislation is an obvious point, as he is exceptionally simple and, as he is now, could not fathom the intricacies that come with somethings. But he has portrayed an adept understanding of what is ethical and morally right, throughout the manga. The definition that you have drawn up is tied with relations with other countries, as you mention _...goals in terms of minimizing war, death and bloodshed_. However, you have your definition, which you got from somewhere; .



> yes
> 
> naruto's being the saviour is incidental
> 
> ...



I wasn't referring to what he _did_. I was referring to what you said it _allowed to bring about_. When we start treading these waters, if we say that Naruto is fated to do this, then it's a simple logical conclusion that every other character was fated _not to do such and such_. The fate argument is a tricky one, as it can applied far to liberally.

Anyway, I'm done; I think this thread is pointless, for reasons I've already stated. I had hoped not to get involved in this again. I tried super-duper hard, but alas. I said what I wanted to say in that last post, but I felt like I should reply to you, at least.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 14, 2013)

yo wait up...why do I see Christ and Naruto in the same sentence ? LAWD.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2013)

> We have no evidence of this being the case. This is my post from earlier; note the second portion (see, recycling arguments; what joy). Children are still being used, en masse. This may not be the case in the Hidden Leaf (however we have evidence to the contrary), but when you posit that he changed this on a systematic level, i.e. including the other ninja villages, we know this isn't.



as cannon fodder, i said

they have training now

if they aren't good enough, they aren't used

that's a definite (and realistic) improvement



> He set the precedent for the ninja world; this is not up for dispute. But how the other ninja villages formed is murky. We have no clue as to whether he sat down and delegated with the others, as you and others that agree with you seem to be leaning to, or if the threat of the Uchiha+Senju alliance forced them to forge their own alliances; their own villages. Maybe the flashback will give us insight to this. I did not expect him to end war, as I have already said in this thread.



whether he did either, it still happened directly because of him, and furthermore they all seem to follow his specific model of the hidden village, given him credit in terms of his ability to make the blueprint for state-running for the next 80 years



> Therein you just proved my point; the world Hashirama would have made would have fallen apart without the arms race. The Uchiha+Senju alliance seems to be the driving force of the ninja world that Hashirama thought of and not, initially, smart delegation. That is a pretty coercive relationship. With that in mind, it seems like the system was formed upon coercion, and held together with an arms race.



what did you expect it to be held together with, rousing speeches on respecting the brotherhood of your fellow men? these are ruthless mercenaries. he did the best he could with the material in his hands



> In a way, yes, yes I am. I contend with you putting forth that the alliance that Obito and Madara have put forth is sufficient and will last, without Naruto's help. I am not disputing the fact that Obito and Madara caused the alliance to come together and fight a common enemy.



i never said it would last...



> According to your opinions, of which you are entitled to. Don't try to use the "bad writing" argument as a fact.



it's a fact

the nagato conversion was top-to-bottom bullshit



> The fact that he is starting from a point that has been tailored and tweaked by Hashirama and many, many others, that have also moved it along its line of progression should not be up from debate.



"many, many others" uh-huh. because hashirama's model has been substantially changed. oh, wait, it hasn't



> However you attribute the success, and, even the possibility of conception, of Naruto's goal to be linked to Hashirama. Thus, the situation could be vastly different in Hashirama's own case if the Sage had not done what he did.



i never attributed the possibility of conception of his goal to hashirama. just the success. and that's entirely fair.



> You said that Naruto has not displayed and understanding of legislation and ethics. Legislation is an obvious point, as he is exceptionally simple and, as he is now, could not fathom the intricacies that come with somethings. But he has portrayed an adept understanding of what is ethical and morally right, throughout the manga. The definition that you have drawn up is tied with relations with other countries, as you mention ...goals in terms of minimizing war, death and bloodshed. However, you have your definition, which you got from somewhere; here is mine, which I'll link.



naruto would be completely at sea in terms of translating his entirely situational and reactionary ethics into workable programmes for a society, and you know it



> I wasn't referring to what he did. I was referring to what you said it allowed to bring about. When we start treading these waters, if we say that Naruto is fated to do this, then it's a simple logical conclusion that every other character was fated not to do such and such. The fate argument is a tricky one, as it can applied far to liberally.



i have genuinely no idea what you're saying


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## Milliardo (Mar 14, 2013)

principito said:


> I think you are confusing the Leader with the tactitian...
> 
> Leader involves having and idea, be convicted to it and being able to convince other people to follow u; that's a leader. Tactics in teams and mission? those are your parameters to asses leadership? you have much to learn young padawan



look up what it means to lead then. it also states to direct operation, activity, and or performance of. no you guys are taking one trait of a leader and saying thats all there is to it to benefit naruto. there are team leaders at jobs you know what they do? they tell people what to do. 

i'm waiting for someone in thread to tell me what naruto's plan is but they can't because not even kishi knows. what i get from some of comments in this thread is to to blindly accept kishi's writing. sorry but i don't bow and down and fall in line like a stupid animal. if he can't pull it off he can't pull it off its that simple.


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## principito (Mar 14, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i think you have no idea what you're talking about, and are arbitrarily creating mumbo-jumbo categories like the 'spiritual' side to leadership in order to try and give naruto some kudos for essentially being a highly optimistic, naive idiot with no clear moral system, no actual vision, and yet somehow managing to make people think he's the bee's knees



Well you cant say that a president or a pope, are the same kind of leaders, because they arent. So saying that there's is only one kind of leader is crazy. Naruto is naive yes, but his leadership doesnt come from that; it comes from the fact that he can see that the ninja system has created this cycle of hatred between villages; his leadership comes from the fact that he will go against many without breaking to dissolve that cycle of hatred. Thats it. 

*hashirama's system didn't 'collapse into itself', it's still going just fine

before hashirama, there was continual war, and children were being thrown into battle without proper training

after hashirama, there was peace intermittently interrupted by the flaring of hostilities. children still fought, but with the requisite training, and with a genuine chance of getting out of there alive. there was also unity and structure to most people's lives*

Well, there is a war right now.... with a guy that was supposed to be from Hashirama's own town, i dont know how closer it could get.

so before hashirama children fought, and after hashirama children still fought? I dont get ur argument.

After hashirama INSIDE Konoha kid Itachi was murdering his family... how that for a system that is going just fine?

So if you analize both Hashiramas and Naruto's deed of course you'll find mistakes... as nobody is perfect. But in their own right they are both great leaders.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 14, 2013)

Unbroken said:


> yo wait up...why do I see Christ and Naruto in the same sentence ? LAWD.



I said Jesus.
lol but because thats the mirror that kishi tries to make with naruto being 'child of prophecy' and 'savior'.
sound familiar? 

shouldn't be surprising, lots of works take off of relgious concepts. HELL THIS WHOLE MANGA TAKES OFF SHINTO GODS ALMOST lol.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 14, 2013)

Mistshadow said:


> I said Jesus.
> lol but because thats the mirror that kishi tries to make with naruto being 'child of prophecy' and 'savior'.
> sound familiar?
> 
> shouldn't be surprising, lots of works take off of relgious concepts. *HELL THIS WHOLE MANGA TAKES OFF SHINTO GODS ALMOST* lol.



No it doesn't. 

The only thing in this manga that has anything to do with Shinto gods that I can think of is Mangekyou Sharingan.

I'd hardly call that the "whole manga" or even "almost" the whole manga, and I am a diehard Uchiha fan.


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## icemaster143 (Mar 14, 2013)

ch1p said:


> It does not matter if they are two situations. We're discussing the capacity for each to be a leader.



The situation has everything to do with what they have displayed. Their goals are a direct reflection of their enviroment. 

Hashiram wished for stability and that is all he ever strived for he left a several things untouched that later geneerations had to deal with.

NAruto is striving for peace while dealing with Hashirama's left overs. Naruto's goal of peace leaves no one out. unlike the first Hokage who's stability was built on the back of the suffering of the Biju and standing by while the Hyuuga's practiced litteral slavery on the lower cast. Naruto's goal is far more ambitious and he has the capacity to see them through.

In fact the manga has been very clear that only Naruto has the charisma to bring about real peace.



> Furthermore, Hashirama rallied up people to fight and live under his wing. The same for the five kages, who lead whole organisations, the same with Nagato and Akatsuki (it helped no one knew who he was, Yahiko was the better leader in that case, and all things considering it was Tobito doing all the background leading after all). Naruto has inspired one person at the time. Jsut by default, Naruto is not a leader.




Once again bringing up a lifetimes works against a teens. It will always seem lopsided. WHats also telling is that all these feats are from people who are not just fully grown but also in positions of power where they could affect change.

Naruto on the other hand hasn't even reached a position of political power yet but the ninja world is already feeling his presense. 

He inspired a country to name a bridge after him after he rekindled their hope. He Inspired an entire class room to not give up when pressured to never get another chance to pass. He inspired Hinata and Neji already enacting some of the change he promised to bring as hokage. He inspired Gaara to Change by example. etc 

He has effected a lot of change for someone who hasn't reached a place of political power yet. Hashirama's accomplishment all happened after he became clan leader as far as we know.  




> What I think it's funny is that you missed the part where Kishimoto introduced the end of the cycle of hatred as viable and then gave it to Naruto. See, of course it's unreasonable to think such a plan exists, since IRL it doesn't and from what we've seen of the Naruto-verse, it doesn't seem like it's possible either. However, Kishimoto made a prophecy about someone who'd end it, he established said person as Naruto. As such, there are expectations that Naruto will end the circle of hatred.
> 
> Like I said, it was all fine when Naruto was just a kid making a name for himself, but now we have a different scenario, the destiny child bullshit. So unless Naruto is going to end up admitting ending the cycle of hatred is impossible and that they will always have war, then he must come up with a plan that will work. That is the weight of Naruto being the chosen one. He must come with the answer, unless this manga subverts itself in the end, which considering this manga's positive outlook all along, then it's impossible.



I'm stll waiting for you to tell me why we must see this plan? This is a story about a a boy who will become Hokage and change the world after becoming the most powerful ninja ever. How he creates this change is irreleveant to the story about a boy growing up.

When you hear happily ever after do you expect the author to tell you how they lived out tthe rest of their lives?

Honestly this is the most riddiculous strawman argument I have ever heard.





> That is yet another problem. Hashirama's life is of no matter, because it can be told in flashbacks. As such, all of his life can be relevant. It doesn't matter if he's 5, 15, 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 75... Flashbacks will home in on the specifics and the rest is history. However, Naruto's story is when he's a thirteen year old and then a sixteen year old. Whatever he manages at 25, 35, 45, 55, 65 is irrelevant, because we're not going to see it. This particular plot was introduced halfway in part II and the war right now is due to said plot as well. If Naruto is to come up with a solution, it must be in the _present_ because it's at this moment that the story is taking place. Kishimoto has already said there won't be more timeskips and the manga is ending in a 1,5 years or so. You might think it's unfair, I won't disagree, but the way the scenario is being laid Naruto really must come with the answer at 16 and that's it. And it must be a really good solution, because he is the chosen one.
> 
> See why the chosen one is bullshit? These are some of the many reasons why.



Yeah NO.

I'm not seeing a reason to bring up an answer but I am seeing where you went wrong.

Kishimoto has said this manga is about *bonds*. 

The badguys are all doing what they are doing due to the loss of their closest bonds in the past. 

The Moons Eye plan, Sasukes revenge, Nagato's god complex, Orochimaru's parents.etc.

All these things grew out of the loss of bonds. THis manga was never and will never be about finding the answer for peace and expecting the answer is nothing but folly. 



> And? Hashirama isn't the chosen one.



Here you are talking about accomplishments yet I point out Hashirama failed at one of his specific goals and you don't care? downplaying Naruto seems to be your only goal.




> Naruto has only inspired one person at a time, except for when he defeated Neji at the Chunin exams and he made the whole stadium cheer for him (which is very different from inspiring them all, mind you).
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it.



How selective your memory is.

Naruto inspired the the land of waves from the first arc to the pointr they named a bridge after him. He inspired the chuunin test applicants to hold their ground. Hell he inspired the army at his back just now with standing up to Madara and Obito's Madness. He inspired the Biju(and Jin thought dead) to follow and help him.

Just cause you have trouble understanding the story and forget events doesn't make Naruto's leadership qualities lacking.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 14, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> The only thing in this manga that has anything to do with Shinto gods that I can think of is Mangekyou Sharingan.
> 
> I'd hardly call that the "whole manga" or even "almost" the whole manga, and I am a diehard Uchiha fan.



their religion includes multiple folklore.
we got orochimaru as the 8 headed hydra. and also the sword of kusanagi
we got buddhist concepts upon buddhist concepts with rikudou's 6 paths and outter path.
everything with the sharingan and mangekyo sharingan is shinto ranging from izanami izanagi to every ms jutsu we've seen
uzumaki with the oni masks 
concept of yin/yang

I may have been too specific when I said relgion, but other concepts and stories I guess would be better:
3rd raikage strongest sword and strongest shield

list goes on


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## ch1p (Mar 14, 2013)

^Shinto is used for Uchiha only. Buddhism is used for Senju.



icemaster143 said:


> The situation has everything to do with what they have displayed. Their goals are a direct reflection of their enviroment.
> 
> Hashiram wished for stability and that is all he ever strived for he left a several things untouched that later geneerations had to deal with.
> 
> NAruto is striving for peace while dealing with Hashirama's left overs. Naruto's goal of peace leaves no one out. unlike the first Hokage who's stability was built on the back of the suffering of the Biju and standing by while the Hyuuga's practiced litteral slavery on the lower cast. Naruto's goal is far more ambitious and he has the capacity to see them through.



So what if it is? If Naruto had been born back then he'd still say a lot of things on top of his lungs and wouldn't really think about them, which was my point. Otherwise he'd be a completely different character.



> In fact the manga has been very clear that only Naruto has the charisma to bring about real peace.



He had real charisma in part I. He has forced charisma in part II (after Gaara).

In part I, we can outline all of his TnJ and come up with several great reasons as to why he convinced all the people he did, even if sometimes he wasn't as eloquent as he should (Zabuza and Chyo for example).

In part II, it's all terrible. He fails to make Sasuke listen to him (and all he ever gotten were threats), Nagato was converted because "believe in Jiraiya, who believed in me", then he says things as "my father was the Hokage" and so what of it, has nothing worth saying to Obito and Madara.



> Once again bringing up a lifetimes works against a teens. It will always seem lopsided. WHats also telling is that all these feats are from people who are not just fully grown but also in positions of power where they could affect change.
> 
> Naruto on the other hand hasn't even reached a position of political power yet but the ninja world is already feeling his presense.



I've already explained why it does not matter. The manga is about Naruto at 16. He must at least come up with the answer about what he spent half of the manga parroting about (cycle of hatred). We can see the fruits of his answer in a distant finale, but he must come with the answer in the present, otherwise why add this dumb plot at all if it's not going to be resolved within manga panel? There was too many pages wasted on it otherwise.



> He inspired a country to name a bridge after him after he rekindled their hope. He Inspired an entire class room to not give up when pressured to never get another chance to pass. He inspired Hinata and Neji already enacting some of the change he promised to bring as hokage. He inspired Gaara to Change by example. etc
> 
> He has effected a lot of change for someone who hasn't reached a place of political power yet. Hashirama's accomplishment all happened after he became clan leader as far as we know.



Yeah, in part I, when he was fucking cool. I've already outlined there was no problem whatsoever with part I Naruto. It's with part II that there is a problem, especially after he took the mantle of chosen one (or perhaps because of it).



> I'm stll waiting for you to tell me why we must see this plan? This is a story about a a boy who will become Hokage and change the world after becoming the most powerful ninja ever. How he creates this change is irreleveant to the story about a boy growing up.
> 
> When you hear happily ever after do you expect the author to tell you how they lived out tthe rest of their lives?
> 
> Honestly this is the most riddiculous strawman argument I have ever heard.



This is not a story about a kid who wants acknowledgement and who will become Hokage. It has long since deviated past that. This is a story about a boy that is the chosen one to end the cycle of hatred and bring peace to the narutovere. How many times do I have to write that the problem didn't exist when Naruto was simply a kid making a name for himself and that the real problem arose when he took the grand theme of ending hatred in the world?



> I'm not seeing a reason to bring up an answer but I am seeing where you went wrong.



You do not see a reason to bring up an answer? It's what literally Naruto revolves around these days: the cycle of hatred. How can it not be answered?



> Kishimoto has said this manga is about *bonds*.



Indeed it's about bonds, which is why I say teamwork is Naruto's saving grace. 



> The badguys are all doing what they are doing due to the loss of their closest bonds in the past.
> 
> The Moons Eye plan, Sasukes revenge, Nagato's god complex, Orochimaru's parents.etc.
> 
> All these things grew out of the loss of bonds. THis manga was never and will never be about finding the answer for peace and expecting the answer is nothing but folly.



And how, pray tell, are you gonna solve the pain of losing bonds? People lose bonds to disease. Is Naruto gonna cure old-age or ninja aids? Naruto isn't going to end the pain of losing bonds, that's even more ridiculous than not fixing the problems of wars. At least war can be avoided or at least contained. There will always be loneliness and loss. No amount of Jesus Naruto is gonna change that.



> Here you are talking about accomplishments yet I point out Hashirama failed at one of his specific goals and you don't care? downplaying Naruto seems to be your only goal.



Hashirama is not the "chosen one". It does not matter if he fails in his accomplishments. Naruto cannot fail. He wouldn't be the chosen one if he failed. And yet, from what we've seen, Naruto spends less effort on the questions than Hashirama ever did. And that is the problem. Naruto says he needs and will fix the problem, yet doesn't spend one panel considering it.



> How selective your memory is.
> 
> Naruto inspired the the land of waves from the first arc to the pointr they named a bridge after him. He inspired the chuunin test applicants to hold their ground.



When he was cool, part I. Like I said, when there was no problem whatsoever with the kid. He used to be my favourite. :amazed



> Hell he inspired the army at his back just now with standing up to Madara and Obito's Madness. He inspired the Biju(and Jin thought dead) to follow and help him.
> 
> Just cause you have trouble understanding the story and forget events doesn't make Naruto's leadership qualities lacking.



Why. Tell me why he is inspiring these people. And this is the problem. You cannot say why without the reasons sounding foolish.

Naruto got all these people to not surrender because what's left if they do? Die? That's neither charisma nor leadership, it's self-preservation. And being able to fight those two isn't about charisma or leadership either. It's having Kurama sealed inside of him, therefore he's strong enough to put up with these guys. That makes him a strong fighter, not a leader.

Naruto got all the Biju following him because some tard prophetised it a million years ago and he treated Kurama nicely for the first time in 16 years that morning.

You say I have lack of comprehension skills. However, have you noticed that the gripe isn't whether Naruto TnJ works or not, it's whether his TnJ is actually something worth reading about? In part II, it isn't.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 14, 2013)

Mistshadow said:


> their religion includes multiple folklore.
> we got orochimaru as the 8 headed hydra. and also the sword of kusanagi
> we got buddhist concepts upon buddhist concepts with rikudou's 6 paths and outter path.
> everything with the sharingan and mangekyo sharingan is shinto ranging from izanami izanagi to every ms jutsu we've seen
> ...



You weren't being too specific by saying religion, because you didn't even just say religion. You said Shinto, and *Shinto gods* at that. Only the MS is about Shinto gods. 

The eight-headed hydra and kusanagi are largely connected to Shinto gods by Susano'o (MS). Obviously Buddhist concepts are Buddhist concepts. I said that about MS in my previous post. Oni are not Shinto gods, or even necessarily related to Shinto, but merely creatures from Japanese folklore. Yin/yang is not a Shinto concept.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 14, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> You weren't being too specific by saying religion, because you didn't even just say religion. You said Shinto, and *Shinto gods* at that. Only the MS is about Shinto gods.
> 
> The eight-headed hydra and kusanagi are largely connected to Shinto gods by Susano'o (MS). Obviously Buddhist concepts are Buddhist concepts. I said that about MS in my previous post. Oni are not Shinto gods, or even necessarily related to Shinto, but merely creatures from Japanese folklore. Yin/yang is not a Shinto concept.



I know, i reclarified myself in my second post saying i meant to say naruto is far from original but rather takes bits and pieces from other stories/relgiions/legends. Why would the messiah concept of jesus and savior be any difference? He was even prophesized by the 'god' rikudou


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## Mizura (Mar 14, 2013)

People thinking that Naruto makes a great leader...

He's getting everything handed to him on a silver platter: he didn't unite the armies, the common threat of Madara did. And by the time he was born, Konoha was already heading to an era of increasing peace on its own, having achieved peace treaties with most of its neighbors. 

I wrote an essay about this a long time ago:


Among the things that everyone should realize is how much a Genius system the Academy is. Hashirama's main problem in establishing the village would have been the hatred and mistrust between the different clans. How did he handle this? He put the children, including the future clan leaders, into the same school, and made them work together. Now children from all clans or even civilian-born share the same classroom like the most natural thing in the world. They learn together, they form teams together, they grow close.

From my essay:


*Spoiler*: __ 



V.1. The academy, a crucial social founding block

As I had said in previous sections, the various clans likely did not embrace each other from the very start. Even during Naruto's generation, some clans like Hyuga and Aburame were still shrouded in secrecy.

But the task of the founders was to get them to work together.

And hereon we can understand just how essential the Academy was. The Academy must have served a purpose nearly impossible to accomplish otherwise: to remove the social barriers between the clans, starting from the very children!

To understand how significant this was, it is necessary to look at none other than Naruto's own class. Children of Hyuga, Uchiha, Aburame, Nara, Yamanaka, Inuzuka and many other clans became friends, shared the same location, shared the same education and even dreams. No doubt half a century ago, such a concept would have been as unthinkable as an interracial class in the United States several centuries ago.

Nidaime must have faced social barriers as well as material ones. He was basically asking the clans to relinquish guardianship of their youngs, and to expose them to the other unfamiliar clans! Noble and minor clans alike had to share the same classrooms.

Yet more than anything, this must have been essential to build trust between the future members - and leaders - of the separate clans. The fact that the children from separate clans can now sit together without giving the matter a second thought is testament to the success of this social role.

[snip]

V.4. The prolonging of the education system, and the chuunin exams

Exhibit B: note this part in the Official Fanbook, which basically states (as I had suspected) that graduation to chuunin could occur Both through examination and direct promotion:

Link removed

Exhibit C: notice the following mission logs, especially the D-rank missions:

Tsunade: D40 C236 B467 A418 S95
Jiraiya: D58 C345 B884 A614 S138
Orochimaru: D18 C332 B521 A491 S108
Dan: D72 C84 B226 A168 S22

Obito: D86 C24 B24 A1

Kurenai: D162 C168 B227 A125 S13
Asuma: D111 C193 B207 A167 S18
Gai: D86 C269 B210 A177 S20
Kakashi: D187 C188 B414 A 277 S39

I had chosen Tsunade, Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Dan because they were the ones available from that generation (Dan probably being a somewhat "typical" shinobi example mission-log wise). I had thrown in Obito, who died at age 13, for a reason that will become apparent soon enough.

Kurenai is an example of a Jounin who had likely not had many genin teams before (as she was a new jounin). Gai would be the "overenthusiastic" one, Kakashi would be the case of a genius.

Exhibit D: According to the databooks (I forgot where, sorry), Sandaime had reformed the academy curriculum after he became Hokage. Also, in my timelines essay, I had detailed further evidence that it might have been reformed again, during the time of the Konoha 12.

Here are my own deductions from all this:

The Academy

1. The original Academy graduation age was 10, pushed back to 9 in times of war. It could have been even sooner when the Academy was just founded, and it allowed anybody talented enough to graduate even earlier.

2. By the time of the Konoha 12, the Academy graduation age was prolonged to 12. Academy students were no longer allowed to graduate earlier.

All these are based on three facts:
- the majority of the older generation graduated the academy at age 10. Even Iruka, a supposed class loser, graduated at age 11.
- when Sasuke remarked in his flashback at Itachi's graduation age, Mikoto specifically replied that "time had changed": between Itachi's graduation and Sasuke's graduation, the system had been reformed.
- finally, Sasuke and Neji, both geniuses, graduated at the same age as "losers" such as Naruto, Kiba and Chouji. This lends support to my theory that Academy students were no longer Allowed to graduate earlier, period.

Genin missions

1. During the times of the Legendary Sannin, even genin probably did few D-rank missions.

2. As time went one, graduates did well... more D-rank missions.

This is based on the fact that even Obito, who died at age 13, had done more D-rank missions than Dan (nevermind the Legendary Sannin)! The current Konoha jounin graduated right during the era of the Third Great Shinobi wars, when the priority was likely on higher-level missions, yet even they had more D-rank missions.

The explanation for this one is simple: when the village was founded, the conflicts were likely too intense for time to be "wasted" on minor missions. Yet as Konoha managed to gather peace treaties and as it reformed its education system, it must have had more time to "invest" in graduates, by sending them on safer missions, before sending them onto more dangerous missions.

Promotion to chuunin

1. In the past, the majority of chuunin promotions were likely through direct appointment, not through the current Chuunin examinations.

2. It is only recently that the main means of access to Chuunin became through chuunin exams.

I base these on the following:
- even Obito, a supposed "loser" back then, became a chuunin at age 11.
- even someone like Mizuki made chuunin. If Konoha needed the extra firepower (whether in times of war or while recovering from war), it likely imposed conditions a lot less strict to access chuunin-hood.

All of these evolutions make sense in the context of Konoha's history:

The Academy was founded during an era of far greater conflicts. In order to build up its forces quickly during this period of vulnerability, the emphasis must have been on preparing the Academy students as Quickly as possible, and send them on high-level missions as fast as possible. D-ranks missions were likely rare back then, as there were more pressing priorities.

When Sandaime became Hokage, he reformed the education system. In the meantime, Konoha finally started achieving peace with at least some of its neighbors, thus decreasing the urgency of quickly sending graduates into higher level missions. At the same time, Konoha's mentality was changing as well: there was more emphasis on the value of life, Konoha was even willing to devote longer times to train medic nins.

In this context, Konoha probably started taking on more D-rank missions (because yes, even D-rank missions taught skills: tracking, teamwork and plain physical workout for example), to prepare their graduates in a more sufficient manner before sending them into more dangerous missions, thus increasing their chances of later survival.

As the village achieved even more peace treaties, and as it sought to insure the readiness of its new shinobi even more, it created the Chuunin exams as a more selective method of attaining the chuunin status than ordinary direct appointment. This would decrease the number of available chuunin, but this would not be a problem in a time of increasing peace, while insuring that those who did graduate were ready. Although the start of the chuunin exams was not stated, they might actually be recent, maybe even after the Third Great Shinobi Wars.

Finally, the end of the Third Great Shinobi wars and the later peace treaty signed with Lightning meant that Konoha had finally achieved a stand-still with all of its immediate neighbors. In the meantime, Konoha might have experienced a post-war baby-boom. It is in this context that the most recent revision to the Academy system occurred, prolonging the Academy graduation age from 10 to 12, while prohibiting earlier graduations. The process of sending back "all but 9 of the graduates back to the Academy" itself might be a new rule.




The Academy not only made it possible for the village to function as one, it has also progressively been granting the children longer childhoods and longer buffers. Naruto was 12 and still slacking off when the series began. In Hashirama's time he'd already have been sent to be killed on the front lines. The Academy has been pushing back the time for graduation, and graduates spent longer on non-dangerous missions. The chuunin exam may also be recent, replacing an appointment system with something to ensure that the kids only move on when they're ready.

Konoha's village system allowed the shinobi to progressively place more value on life, too. There was real emotional leadership on this front. In Suna, by contrast, Chiyo noted that Sasori became what he did because the Suna village discouraged emotional bonds. And while Chiyo was working on puppets and poison, Konoha was researching healing jutsu and thinking of including medic-nin in every team.

Hashirama thought of the beginnings of all this when he was just a kid. The academy system, as I said, is one of those instruments crucial to peace, and the other structures he left behind allowed people to form longer and stronger bonds, grow up in more peaceful eras. Naruto is just standing on the shoulder of giants. Everything he achieved was only possible because the village structures and ideology allowed him to grow up safely, make friends, and actually value those friends.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 15, 2013)

So have we reached the consensus that Naruto is better at getting people to follow his will & put faith in him than Hashirama?


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## Mistshadow (Mar 15, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> So have we reached the consensus that Naruto is better at getting people to follow his will & put faith in him than Hashirama?



Well lets see if ppl understand the difference

Hashirama got one village to follow him
Naruto has 5 villages following him


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## Monkey D Dragon (Mar 15, 2013)

Does it really matter, we all know by the time this manga ends naruto's gonna be the greatest thing since teuchi's ramen.


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## Mizura (Mar 15, 2013)

Mistshadow said:


> Hashirama got one village to follow him
> Naruto has 5 villages following him


Hashirama got several dozen clans to follow him.
Naruto didn't get 5 villages to follow him. It was Madara.


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## Gilgamesh (Mar 15, 2013)

Mizura said:


> Hashirama got several dozen clans to follow him.
> Naruto didn't get 5 villages to follow him. It was Madara.



This.

The villages united to fight Obito/Madara not because of Naruto. Naruto fans are incapable of or unwilling(probably a combination of both) to accept this.

And Hashirama is 100x the leader and better character than Naruto could ever hope to be anyway.


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## mayumi (Mar 15, 2013)

Mizura said:


> Hashirama got several dozen clans to follow him.
> Naruto didn't get 5 villages to follow him. It was Madara.



Nope, the kages gave naruto their blessings. the kages represent the villages. Gaara is obviously following naruto, so is A after his little fight with naruto. Tsunade is pretty much following naruto since part 1. Mizukage, don't care. Tsuchikage because gaara and naruto  left an impression on him.


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

Mistshadow said:


> Well lets see if ppl understand the difference
> 
> Hashirama got one village to follow him
> Naruto has 5 villages following him



Indeed. 

/thread.


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## Seraphiel (Mar 15, 2013)

mayumi said:


> Nope, the kages gave naruto their blessings. the kages represent the villages. Gaara is obviously following naruto, so is A after his little fight with naruto. Tsunade is pretty much following naruto since part 1. Mizukage, don't care. Tsuchikage because gaara and naruto  left an impression on him.



Erm...

They told him to go beat Obito, that was about it. The point still remains Obito unified the world not Naruto.

It literally had zero to do with Naruto.


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

Everyone even litteraly say they believe in Naruto, people here keep denying it. 

First, the villages came together because of Madara, true. But now, everyone is with Naruto. Each single one.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 15, 2013)

Seraphiel said:


> Erm...
> 
> They told him to go beat Obito, that was about it. The point still remains Obito unified the world not Naruto.
> 
> It literally had zero to do with Naruto.



This guy musta forgot that before Madara joined the Kage Summit they were already going to unite & that when Obito popped up his Main Objective was Naruto & Killabee lol.

Naruto is the entire reason for the war.
Naruto is defended for the entire war, the same way you defend a King in Chess,
Naruto is defended the same way you would defend a ruler in wartime
Naruto is the subject of the friend/bonds speech used by gaara to unite the Shinobi army
Naruto entered the war with Bee & stopped MANY casualties
Defeated KEY enemies which lead to the Release of ET
Defeated & detected many Zetsu
Saved Kages!
Fought Madara wit a Clone til back up arrived!
Befriended Kyuubi!!
Fought Obito & ET Jinchuuriki after getting accepted by the Kage
Defeated ETJinchuuriki & then fought Madara & Obito
Fought Madara, Obito & Juubi til Back Up Arrived!
Powers up his Backup!
Will convert AT LEAST 1 of the 3 from Obito, Madara & Juubi
Will defeat the remainder that doesn't get converted

That Naruto discrediting schtick is so old & tired lol. Who do you guys hope to fool?


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## Rios (Mar 15, 2013)

Which is unfounded because he has no answers about the future, after the threat is defeated.

Until he shows the capability to put the after war world in order, he is nothing more than the strongest warrior everyone else is following into battle.

Shikaku was a better leader than him.


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

Gilgamesh said:


> And Hashirama is 100x the leader and better character than Naruto could ever hope to be anyway.



Haha. Typical hater. You don't even know that. Have you seen Hashirama as a leader already? No! 

Please go away with ridiculous hate based on nothing.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto will surpass Hashirama soon!


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> This guy musta forgot that before Madara joined the Kage Summit they were already going to unite & that when Obito popped up his Main Objective was Naruto & Killabee lol.
> 
> Naruto is the entire reason for the war.
> Naruto is defended for the entire war, the same way you defend a King in Chess,
> ...



//////thread. 

+ reps


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## Seraphiel (Mar 15, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> This guy musta forgot that before Madara joined the Kage Summit they were already going to unite & that when Obito popped up his Main Objective was Naruto & Killabee lol.
> 
> Naruto is the entire reason for the war.
> Naruto is defended for the entire war, the same way you defend a King in Chess,
> ...



None of that matter since the only thing that unified the kages was Obito mentioning Madara's name and the kages being scared shitless and into an alliance.


Naruto and Bee are the reason for the war. Doesn't make them leaders.

He is defended like one would defend a nuke. Would you call the nuclear a leader?

Doesn't matter who the subject of the speech was since it was a generic one that anyone could have pulled off.

And the Madara dropped a meteor and Obito used the Juubi/GM to slaughter a lot more than Naruto saved.

Itachi released ET.

Who did he save? oonoki?

Clone would have been dead in a second had Madara not been showing off.

That's admirable.

Has nothing to do with him being a leader. 

You are repeating yourself.

Was about to die before backup came.

Doesn't make him a leader, just a portable battery.

Doesn't make him a leader.

He is the main char ofc he will.

95% of what you said here has nothing to do with being a leader.


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

Naruto is currently saving everyone. Everyone respects him, trusts him, believes in him. Buttttt still some people here say he is not a good leader...

*Look. Even when Naruto soon comes with his own idea of peace. And even when it will be mature and nice and stuff. Still the same people here will hate and flame. That's how it is. The arguments on that side are most of the time f*cking re to the tarded. *

Ohhh, dat Konoha Telegrams.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Mar 15, 2013)

Naruto is G. "Dubya" Bush-level as a leader _and_ as a person.
Or worse.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 15, 2013)

Naruto is the driving force behind this war. Point blank. He's the epicenter of the war & he's at the forefront & he's the only one who can protect the shinobi & defeat the enemy. He is the alpha male. He is the top dog. He is the strongest most vital asset. He is the most powerful & the shinobi world respects power. He is their Leader.


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

Toby said:


> hcheng02 and I have had this discussion and we see strong similarities between the Naruto ninja village system and the emergence of the modern nation state. There is also a strong Biblical theme to Naruto's role as the savior of the world, not just the Konoha village. As such, he is a system-changer, and more so than Hashirama. The most obvious evidence of this so far is the united ninja army, which is a transformed multinational entity that surpasses the ninja village system set in place by Hashirama and Madara.
> 
> So in terms of political legacy, Naruto is on par with changing the world as Hashirama did, and will probably have a much longer lasting effect.
> 
> ...



Totally agree. Great post.


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## fleaky (Mar 15, 2013)

like you or not... manga called naruto not hashirama


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 15, 2013)

Whoah.

So being the _reason_ for a war automatically makes you a good leader?

This keeps getting weirder and weirder.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 15, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> So have we reached the consensus that Naruto is better at getting people to follow his will & put faith in him than Hashirama?



no, but if you can provide me with lil wayne's expert commentary on the subject, i might change my mind



Mistshadow said:


> Well lets see if ppl understand the difference
> 
> Hashirama got one village to follow him
> Naruto has 5 villages following him



> still beating this dead horse
> still not getting that it was obito who united them
> zero reading comprehension


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Whoah.
> 
> So being the _reason_ for a war automatically makes you a good leader?
> 
> This keeps getting weirder and weirder.



You don't even read posts like I, Alpha, Toby and more made. You are just hating on a very ridiculous level. You keep returning to this but other arguments, you just ignore those. Most probably because you can't argue with those. 

One more time, read all posts again and you will see a lot of reasons why Naruto is a good leader. 


"Obito reunited the Alliance", yes, and what was the reason for Obito to declare the war?! Yes, because of Naruto (and Bee)... 
Are you trying to say they don't trust or don't believe in Naruto? A, Tsunade, Kakashi, Gaara, ... Everyone (!) is listening to him. Naruto is taking the leadership completely lately. And he is doing that good, on the age of 16-17. _He has saved hundreds of shinobi when he entered the war so yes he is a good leader for sure. So many more reasons, who are already mentioned numerous times in this thread!_

Most funny thing is -> Hashirama has not even showed any good leadership himself. We are all still waiting for that. Ahhh. those bandwagons.


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## Danzio (Mar 15, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Being the Child of Prophecy is not Naruto's action.



No, but saving the world is.


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

Danzio said:


> No, but saving the world is.



Danzio: 1
Pika: 0

I tell ya bro, they are masters in ignoring arguments... They don't even know how ridiculous the stuff they say is, with all respect.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 15, 2013)

^ Considering the fact that you are mocking me and praising the man who said that Lil Wayne and Hitler were great leaders, and who was measuring quality of leadership based on amount of followers and influence (for good or evil), I don't think you should talk about ridiculous. 



Mistshadow said:


> I know, i reclarified myself in my second post saying i meant to say naruto is far from original but rather takes bits and pieces from other stories/relgiions/legends. Why would the messiah concept of jesus and savior be any difference? He was even prophesized by the 'god' rikudou



VM-ing you.


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

Please read the posts again and argue on all points (for example Toby's post, wich is perfect). Not only "Obito reunited the villages" wich is debatable (however everyone follows Naruto now)... 

But I am asking too much now, he!?


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## Lucaniel (Mar 15, 2013)

> Most funny thing is -> Hashirama has not even showed any good leadership himself. We are all still waiting for that.



> founded konoha
> made over a dozen clans bend to his will
> created a ninja rank system being used across the world
> no good leadership shown
> lol



EliteRamenNinja said:


> Please read the posts again and argue on all points (for example Toby's post, wich is perfect). Not only "Obito reunited the villages" wich is debatable (however everyone follows Naruto now)...
> 
> But I am asking too much now, he!?



every single one of toby's posts has been refuted, numbnuts

obito reuniting the villages is not 'debatable'

it is unarguable fact that they joined forces due to the common threat of 'madara'


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> > founded konoha
> > created a ninja rank system being used across the world
> > no good leadership shown
> > lol



- Did not solve peace.
- Still child soldiers.
- Uchiha-massacre by Danzo, most probably inspired by his sensei, Hashi's brother - Tobirama.

He was thinking at a young age of a better world. Well, Naruto did too -> Land of Waves arc.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 15, 2013)

> - Did not solve peace.
> - Still child soldiers.
> - Uchiha-massacre by Danzo, most probably inspired by his sensei, Hashi's brother - Tobirama.



'did not solve peace'

if you genuinely expected hashirama, a single man, to somehow end war, or expect war to ever be ended within several centuries of his time, then you are dumb on a reality-warping level. we still have war here and now

there were always going to be child soldiers, and he never claimed to be able to stop this - he did what he set out to do. ensure that the children who fought had the proper training to survive

the uchiha massacre is down to the uchiha conspiring. he was hardly going to change who the uchiha were. and it's ridiculous to claim that it was a failure on his part that they were power-hungry schemers


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 15, 2013)

Why don't people realize that Hashirama was supposed to be a temporary fix?

We need a permanent fix.

Hell, in the real world, I believe it was Jefferson who said the entire constitution should be replaced every twenty years.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 15, 2013)

more like

why don't people stop blubbing about naruto being the saviour and thus automatically amazing, like retarded sheep, because _we already fucking know_, he's the main character, he's going to solve everything because kishi wills it so, yes

and actually understand that we are objectively looking at what naruto's shown, outside of the plot and its many contrivances, and checking whether he is actually believable as world leader


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 15, 2013)

I think the very fact that Kishi resorted to the "Savior" motif with Naruto and added some garbage about destiny and prophecy last minute, something which went against Part 1, proves that even the author has doubts as to how well Naruto has been presented as a leader.

If Kishimoto himself really had faith in his own hero, he wouldn't have compromised some of the most important themes of the manga to get Naruto to where he is today as a "leader".



And with that, I am done with this thread.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 15, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> I think the very fact that Kishi resorted to the "Savior" motif with Naruto and added some garbage about destiny and prophecy last minute, something which went against Part 1, proves that even the author has doubts as to how well Naruto has been presented as a leader.
> 
> If Kishimoto himself really had faith in his own hero, he wouldn't have compromised some of the most important themes of the manga to get Naruto to where he is today as a "leader".
> 
> ...



Aww don't be mad Pika. When Kishi reveals Rikudo to be a Hyuuga/Uzumaki hybrid & you realize it was a Hyuuga who first introduced Destiny into the manga you will have less excuses to whine about 

Can't believe people are mad that Kishi made the OG Ninja King predict that there wwould be another who would surpass his own legacy lol. People say Naruto is selfish for wanting to be Hokage, but as soon as he starts becoming something much much greater, they wanna start bitchin about the author tsk tsk tsk. Weaksauce is weak lol


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## Reddan (Mar 15, 2013)

Naruto has always been a natural leader. We have seen only  a little from Hashirama, but I would say he actually does not appear to be a natural leader. Madara and Tobirama seem much more comfortable taking command. When Hashirama comes up with a jutsu they need to practise he i shut down and Madara decides what they should do.
_this_ Gedou Mazou
Tobirama taking control.
_this_ Gedou Mazou

It is only when Hashirama is pushed about something he is really passionate about does he refuse to back down and his inner steel can be seen.
_this_ Gedou Mazou
_this_ Gedou Mazou



Though from what we know Hashirama became a great leader. He was wise and compassionate and really improved the ninja system. Even as a youngster he had many wise ideas about improving the world.
_this_ Gedou Mazou

Naruto is not yet wise, but he can naturally inspire and motivate people. In part 1 this quality was very evident,  but at the same time he was not an especially deep person. He could not come out with any grand plans. That said he inspired many people from Zabuza, to Hinata, Sakura and the whole Chunin exam. 
Link removed
I could literally link tens of examples of Naruto leading or inspiring those around him. In part 1 and early part his goals were simplistic, he was never a deep thinker like Hashirama or Madara. It was only with Jiraiya's death and meeting Nagato did he begin to change his focus and take on the responsibility of bringing peace to the world.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 15, 2013)

> Tobirama taking control.



like that counts for shit when hashirama puts his foot down and scares tobirama into obedience the moment he oversteps



> It is only when Hashirama is pushed about something he is really passionate about does he refuse to back down and his inner steel can be seen.



so what?



> Naruto is not yet wise, but he can naturally inspire and motivate people. In part 1 this quality was very evident, but at the same time he was not an especially deep person. He could not come out with any grand plans. That said he inspired many people from Zabuza, to Hinata, Sakura and the whole Chunin exam.



he isn't 'especially deep' even now



> I could literally link tens of examples of Naruto leading or inspiring those around him. In part 1 and early part his goals were simplistic, he was never a deep thinker like Hashirama or Madara. It was only with Jiraiya's death and meeting Nagato did he begin to change his focus and take on the responsibility of bringing peace to the world.



you need to quit jerking off about people getting fired up over something naruto says and pretending that equates to him being capable of leading when he has shown no intellectual engagement with the problems of government, or with solving inter-village conflict, and the like


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## Reddan (Mar 15, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> like that counts for shit when hashirama puts his foot down and scares tobirama into obedience the moment he oversteps


Yes because Hashirama is the strongest man in the world. Tobirama though has shown to be a natural leader. Even when emotions were running high at the Kawarama's funeral, Tobirama stepped in and calmed things down. This does not mean I think Tobirama was a good leader, but he could naturally take command, and get people to follow him much easier than Hashirama could.


> so what?


It shows it is not something that comes naturally to him. As a youngster he was not able to easily get people to listen to and follow him like Madara or Tobirama could with the strength of their personality alone.


> he isn't 'especially deep' even now


Actually he is. He has thought long and hard about the problems in the ninja world and how wars bring sufferings. He has actually come up with a set solution, but he has been thinking for a while now about the problems and how they can be stopped.


> you need to quit jerking off about people getting fired up over something naruto says and pretending that equates to him being capable of leading when he has shown no intellectual engagement with the problems of government, or with solving inter-village conflict, and the like


I never said Naruto would be a good leader at the moment. I said he was a natural leader. He has natural charisma and the ability to get people to follow him on the strength of his personality alone. Now whether he would lead them into destruction is another matter entirely. He needs to grow and understand how to govern and come up with specific long term strategies. These are things he will develop in time.

However, put Hashirama and Naruto in a group of their peers and Naruto will quickly be the head of the group. Even if his ideas are foolish his charisma would win over against Hashirama.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 15, 2013)

oh, so hashirama being able to take command is entirely down to him being 'the strongest man in the world' but naruto apparently being able to take command is entirely down to his personality?

what utter nonsense

naruto was mocked and despised for a long, long, time until it turned out he was actually capable of fighting decently and with creative thinking. and even then, the fact that he is _an idiot_ and _totally infatuated with sasuke_ is a huge stumbling block

and he gets attention and respect regardless because he's strong. not because of some magnetic charisma or because he's some spiritual guide, but because he's just really strong

your bullshit double standard which attempts to paint hashirama as some kind of beta who is only in charge due to his power, but claims naruto is alpha as fuck because of his personality, when he's actually frequently a whiny little shit, will _not_ fly

and also, naruto has no 'solution' to offer, he has not thought long and hard about a damn thing, and all of this 'ability to get people to follow him on the strength of his personality alone' is total fanfiction which totally ignores all the canonical instances of naruto jumping the gun, doing stupid things, generally being kind of an embarrassment and a pain in the ass



> However, put Hashirama and Naruto in a group of their peers and Naruto will quickly be the head of the group. Even if his ideas are foolish his charisma would win over against Hashirama.



are you retarded?

do you even remember the academy days when sasuke was clearly the head of his social group because he was a skilled ninja, and all of naruto's joking around and so-called 'charisma' still kept him despised and alienated?

ninjas respond to talent, intelligence, and power. hashirama beats naruto in all of these respects. and that's the bottom line


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## Reddan (Mar 15, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> oh, so hashirama being able to take command is entirely down to him beign 'the strongest man in the world' but naruto apparently being able to take command is entirely down to his personality?
> 
> what utter nonsense
> 
> ...


It is fairly pathetic to start throwing insults on a discussion on the internet. Until you learn to debate like someone outside primary school, I see no point in responding to you.


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## principito (Mar 15, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> I think the very fact that Kishi resorted to the "Savior" motif with Naruto and added some garbage about destiny and prophecy last minute, something which *went against Part 1*, proves that even the author has doubts as to how well Naruto has been presented as a leader.
> 
> If Kishimoto himself really had faith in his own hero, he wouldn't have *compromised some of the most important themes of the manga* to get Naruto to where he is today as a "leader".
> 
> And with that, I am done with this thread.



Im going to stand by this moron here 

this is the only thing that bugs me; had the "destined child" shit had left untouched and the "hard working" line been kept, Naruto's leadership wouldnt be under attack.


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## Rios (Mar 15, 2013)

Work your ass off all you want, if you dont have brains and vision you are not fit to lead the whole world.


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## fleaky (Mar 15, 2013)

... people just confused about destiny ( stupid emo kid like gaara) and destination( child of the prophecy)


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## Euraj (Mar 15, 2013)

principito said:


> Im going to stand by this moron here
> 
> this is the only thing that bugs me; had the "destined child" shit had left untouched and the "hard working" line been kept, Naruto's leadership wouldnt be under attack.


I can even agree with that. Naruto, in the end, will be the greatest leader ever, whether or not he was predestined to be that. Nevertheless, the inclusion of such a thing totally took a dump on what he was supposed to represent before.


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## icemaster143 (Mar 15, 2013)

ch1p said:


> So what if it is? If Naruto had been born back then he'd still say a lot of things on top of his lungs and wouldn't really think about them, which was my point. Otherwise he'd be a completely different character.



The Topic at hand is their qualities as leaders and what they have or have not accomplished. 

Their goals reflect directly on their abilities as leaders and what they plan. Hashirama wanted stability and built the Village accordingly, a noble but simple goal.

Naruto must bring about peace something not so easy on any level.  




> He had real charisma in part I. He has forced charisma in part II (after Gaara).
> 
> In part I, we can outline all of his TnJ and come up with several great reasons as to why he convinced all the people he did, even if sometimes he wasn't as eloquent as he should (Zabuza and Chyo for example).
> 
> In part II, it's all terrible. He fails to make Sasuke listen to him (and all he ever gotten were threats), Nagato was converted because "believe in Jiraiya, who believed in me", then he says things as "my father was the Hokage" and so what of it, has nothing worth saying to Obito and Madara.



This is Opinion not fact.

Chiyo was also from part II. 

Naruto leads by doing not talking now. Even the Biju believed in him for this very reason. It's also because of this that the enemies that Naruto fights keep trying to force Naruto to react the same way they did in order to prove themselves right. Even Madara Noted how hard Obito was trying to convince Naruto. He needs to beat Naruto's ideals or else everything he has come to believe in will be proven wrong. THe same way Nagato was defeated.





> I've already explained why it does not matter. The manga is about Naruto at 16. He must at least come up with the answer about what he spent half of the manga parroting about (cycle of hatred). We can see the fruits of his answer in a distant finale, but he must come with the answer in the present, otherwise why add this dumb plot at all if it's not going to be resolved within manga panel? There was too many pages wasted on it otherwise.




Well prepair to be disappointed. 

THe chain of hatred idea ended with Nagato. Hell When was the last time someone even brought that up? It was never anything mor ethan an Arc lesson and Naruto beat it when he didn't kill Nagato when he had the chance. 

This Manga is the hero's jeorney. We are not going to be dragged into the unimportant details about when he becomes king in the end.




> Yeah, in part I, when he was fucking cool. I've already outlined there was no problem whatsoever with part I Naruto. It's with part II that there is a problem, especially after he took the mantle of chosen one (or perhaps because of it).




And I have pointed out that this was Opinion not a fact. Which is what this thread is about.



[/UOTE]
This is not a story about a kid who wants acknowledgement and who will become Hokage. It has long since deviated past that. This is a story about a boy that is the chosen one to end the cycle of hatred and bring peace to the narutovere. How many times do I have to write that the problem didn't exist when Naruto was simply a kid making a name for himself and that the real problem arose when he took the grand theme of ending hatred in the world?[/QUOTE]

Actually thats exactly what it is.

Naruto's goals are all still exactly the same only now he knows that the Hokage title will come with responsibility.

In the lion king we saw that Kimba needed to undo the damage that his uncle did but we never see how. WHy because it isn't relevent to the hero's jeorney and netheir is the answer to peace.



> You do not see a reason to bring up an answer? It's what literally Naruto revolves around these days: the cycle of hatred. How can it not be answered?



Once again the cycle of hatred hasn't been relevent since the Nagato Arc now we are dealing with the loss of bonds arc. 



> Indeed it's about bonds, which is why I say teamwork is Naruto's saving grace.
> 
> 
> 
> And how, pray tell, are you gonna solve the pain of losing bonds? People lose bonds to disease. Is Naruto gonna cure old-age or ninja aids? Naruto isn't going to end the pain of losing bonds, that's even more ridiculous than not fixing the problems of wars. At least war can be avoided or at least contained. There will always be loneliness and loss. No amount of Jesus Naruto is gonna change that.



Funny enough Naruto actually answered that just now with the whole real Neji in his heart speach and that Neji's dreams will not die as long as they carry it. 

If you don't like that answer then their is nothing I can do for you because Kishi ain't gonna care if your not satisfied.





> Hashirama is not the "chosen one". It does not matter if he fails in his accomplishments. Naruto cannot fail. He wouldn't be the chosen one if he failed. And yet, from what we've seen, Naruto spends less effort on the questions than Hashirama ever did. And that is the problem. Naruto says he needs and will fix the problem, yet doesn't spend one panel considering it.




Chosen one or not has no real place in a thread compairing their leadership abilities. 

Also Naruto hasn't had the time to consider what he needs to do he has gone from one emergancy to the next. 

Hashirama in the mean time spent a good amount of time shooting the breeze with Madara doing nothing giving him plenty of time to plan things out. Then add to the fact that Hashirama didn't reach his goal until his later life creates even more time for him to come up with the village system.




> Why. Tell me why he is inspiring these people. And this is the problem. You cannot say why without the reasons sounding foolish.
> 
> Naruto got all these people to not surrender because what's left if they do? Die? That's neither charisma nor leadership, it's self-preservation. And being able to fight those two isn't about charisma or leadership either. It's having Kurama sealed inside of him, therefore he's strong enough to put up with these guys. That makes him a strong fighter, not a leader.
> 
> Naruto got all the Biju following him because some tard prophetised it a million years ago and he treated Kurama nicely for the first time in 16 years that morning.



Yeah I'm done. 

Opinion will never beat facts in a debate and all I see here is an opinion about why you don't like what you see not facts about the results and goals of the two leaders we are comparing.



> You say I have lack of comprehension skills. However, have you noticed that the gripe isn't whether Naruto TnJ works or not, it's whether his TnJ is actually something worth reading about? In part II, it isn't.



Then you have no place in this factual debate about their leadership qualities.


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## fleaky (Mar 15, 2013)

you just hate changing naruto's personality


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## ch1p (Mar 15, 2013)

icemaster143 said:


> The Topic at hand is their qualities as leaders and what they have or have not accomplished.
> 
> Their goals reflect directly on their abilities as leaders and what they plan.



Yeah? What they have accomplished? Hashirama ended the clans' rivalry and founded the Leaf. What has Naruto done in comparision? Nothing much. 



> Hashirama wanted stability and built the Village accordingly, a noble but simple goal.
> 
> Naruto must bring about peace something not so easy on any level.



If you're not aware, the clans warring with one another is the exact same as you have right now. The only difference is that before it were less scale fights, since it was clan VS clan and now it's village VS village. However, that's easily compensable with the fact that before, there was constant war. So, it even outs. The casualties were the same, if not more.

Hashirama giving tailed beasts around is the same as the US giving out half of his nuclear armament to other countries as a sign of good will. You might say it's stupid, but it was the fact that both US and URSS had nuclear that led to the stalemate known as cold war, so we know that holding such power does lead to "peace" (even if it's only physical one). The principle of Hashirama's plan is the exact same, if not better considering the differences (he didn't divide the world in two factions, there was good will).

I cannot speak about Naruto's plan, because guess what... there is no plan.  At most there's alliance and "disarmament". The alliance was not made by Naruto, so he can suck a cow for that matter, and it has been said they'll go their eventual ways on their own. And no, there is no way all becoming friends is a solution either, because the reason why villages stand together as economically viable is because they have missions that 90% of it consist on one-up other villages. The "disarmament" aka freeing the tailed beasts is a step, but there are many ways of fighting a war. Nuking the world is considered to be... innefective. If Naruto's plan is just the freeing of the tailed monsters, than his plan is bullshit. I might cut some slack because Kishimoto is japanese and they are still reeling from the nukes to this day, but I don't cut you and co. any slack for it. You should know better than that.



> This is Opinion not fact.



It is not opinion.

Inari spent his days crying because he lost hope. Naruto pointed out that crying gets you nowhere. This is the truth, crying gets you nowhere, and hey Naruto had already cried too much and achieved nothing according to Kakashi. When he told Inari to STFU and man up already, because crying didn't solve anything, he was right.

When Zabuza kicked Haku as if he was just an old rag, Naruto was enraged. After all, they were friends, they lived together, they fought together. How could Zabuza not feel anything? He was not a machine, he was human. Like all humans, Zabuza had bonds whether he liked it or not and as such, an otherwise murderous criminal cried like a child because he lost his most important person. Naruto' struggle to say the right words, his tears and his screams, his protest reflect the inner turmoil Zabuza had. For someone like him, who killed his classmates to graduate, admitting these feelings is not easy. That scene remains one of the best in canon, not because Naruto was the most eloquent, but because he knew exactly what to push on this matter.

It's similar to Gaara, where he pulled the exact same stunt as Zabuza, but used himself as a parallel. He too had felt lonely. He too knew wanted acknowledgement and didn't had it (for a while). He too knew what was hate for those who shun him. He too knew all of that pain. So when he said he understood, he truly did. When he reached for Gaara, it was the same as when Iruka / Team 7 / Rookies (each at their own time) reached for him. Gaara was an exaggerated form of Naruto as a child. So of course Naruto's words worked.

Tsunade is a different matter. She stopped believing in her dream of protecting the Leaf because she lost all those precious to him. Naruto has no clue what that kind of loss is really like. He was alone from the start (thanks Sauce). She is a Obito type, however she lost herself to gambling and drinking instead of making up Machiavelian plans. To her, losing those precious to him made her believe that there was no hope for her dream, , so she resigned herself to mediocrity and only wanted to forget. But Naruto showed her impossible is just a word people use when they quit, exempts them from trying again, exempts them from personal guilt, makes them feel better about themselves. It's not their fault. It's the world's fault and its impossibilities. Naruto learning Rasengan isn't there to show how talented he is. It's there to show Tsunade that, no matter the odds and the obstacles, you can still achieve your goals if you try. This is why Naruto doesn't even master Rasengan, because that's impossible in a week (he actually, still hasn't mastered it, he uses crutches -> good of him, I appreciate still this of his character). What Naruto did was find a way around it. That despite not being able to master Rasengan the proper way, he still achieved it. That translates to Tsunade, even though Dan and Nawaki are dead, she can still dream of protecting the Leaf.

Chyo was a Zabuza + Tsunade hybrid type. She was told off for using others as tools and from excusing herself of mistake after mistake she had. Like Kakashi said, Naruto doesn't express it well with words, but he touched Chyo regardless. Chyo was still human. Indeed if the Sand hadn't put Shukaku inside Gaara, he wouldn't have "died" then, he wouldn't have suffered.After all, like Zabuza, using Gaara as a tool wasn't... quite as easy as one would imagine.

Eh... I loved this Naruto. 

Now Nagato. It's quite alright if Naruto doesn't forgive Nagato. Nagato himself could never forgive the Leaf for what they've done. It's probably why he managed to kill his teacher, Jiraiya. So they are in the same wavelenght at that point. However, the good and the charisma end there. Naruto's reasons for Nagato to stop the path he had chosen as legitimate is the same path Nagato had already rejected a long time ago as full of shit. The path laid out by the man he killed due to his own mission no less. There is nothing, nothint whatsoever that touches Nagato. He was never the type to secretely wish for hope and even if he did believe in it, why would he believe in the hope he had already rejected (Jiraiya's). Nagato literally gave up because Naruto told him he lacked reading comprehension skills, that it was him who was the savior and not Nagato. "Believe in Jiraiya, who believed in me." But Nagato had already rejected Jiraiya. And believe in someone for no given reason is just shit. I have no clue why people keep defending Nagato's TnJ as anything worth anything. Naruto only managed to do it because Nagato was only 1/10 of Yahiko.

The Raikage is even worse. He let Naruto go fight because he was faster than him. What does that even matter if keeping Naruto out of Obito's hand was their objective? It's really third grade logic. Since this guy is the most powerful we have, let him fight even though protecting him is one of the reasons why we're fighting this war and if we lose him we might as well slit our own wrists because it's all over. He also let him go because his parents are supporting him and believe him. WTF. Naruto's luck was that A was weak against B's pleas.

To say nothing about Obito, who keeps asking questions and Naruto just says stupidity after stupidity. The best one was when he commented on the majority wins, as if the majority deciding he sucked wasn't major grief for him as a kid.



> Chiyo was also from part II.



I've already said Chyo was more alike part I than part II multiple of times.



> Naruto leads by doing not talking now. Even the Biju believed in him for this very reason.



So Naruto just tells people believe me, I'll fix it later somehow, and you this is the epitome of motive?



> It's also because of this that the enemies that Naruto fights keep trying to force Naruto to react the same way they did in order to prove themselves right. Even Madara Noted how hard Obito was trying to convince Naruto. He needs to beat Naruto's ideals or else everything he has come to believe in will be proven wrong. THe same way Nagato was defeated.



Obito doesn't need to beat Naruto's ideals. He just needs to defeat him. But if he gives him enough grief, than maybe he'll just end the dumb fight they are having already.

And lmao at comparing him with Nagato. If you want a bullshit conversation, then I guess it is "the same way Nagato was defeated". Two dumbasses with a lot of power in the truck and none in the head.



> Well prepair to be disappointed.



I would, if I knew what prepair meant.



> THe chain of hatred idea ended with Nagato. Hell When was the last time someone even brought that up? It was never anything mor ethan an Arc lesson and Naruto beat it when he didn't kill Nagato when he had the chance.



It ended with Nagato my arse. Sasuke, Obito and Madara are the result of the chain of hatred. Notice what they're all members of. The clan of the older son descendant.


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## ch1p (Mar 15, 2013)

> This Manga is the hero's jeorney. We are not going to be dragged into the unimportant details about when he becomes king in the end.



Unimportant details.  Naruto's mission in most part II, the one Kishimoto pulled out of the arse, the one that made him relevant again is an unimportant detail.



> And I have pointed out that this was Opinion not a fact. Which is what this thread is about.



Not so. The OP spoke of how Hashirama thought about the problem and divised his plans. Naruto hasn't done any of the two. Furthermore, you say it's an unimportant detail. You write a lot for that unimportant detail.



> Actually thats exactly what it is.
> 
> Naruto's goals are all still exactly the same only now he knows that the Hokage title will come with responsibility.



And he deals with no responsability whatsoever.



> In the lion king we saw that Kimba needed to undo the damage that his uncle did but we never see how. WHy because it isn't relevent to the hero's jeorney and netheir is the answer to peace.



Simba's problem was never the problems his uncle did. Simba's problem was lack of confidence due to being raised outside and his uncle's plotting. Once he gained confidence and got rid of his uncle, of course things were fixed. The former is self-explanatory and the latter is the only reason why things were wrong. Scar is the reason everything is bullshit. So getting rid of Scar is what Simba needs to do and behold, that's what happened in the movie. Simba got rid of Scar. It's the same as the cycle of hatred. It's what creates bullshit in the narutoworld. It's what Naruto must overcome so he can have his peace. We don't need see him constructing peace or getting rid of the cycle of hatred. What we need is to see him getting an answer for it. There have been four wars already, ending this one won't change anything. Yet he hasn't thought about it like at least Hashirama did.



> Once again the cycle of hatred hasn't been relevent since the Nagato Arc now we are dealing with the loss of bonds arc.



Are you for real? Naruto didn't even give an answer to the cycle of hatred, let alone resolve it.

Loss of bonds arc. I'm still loling over you not explaining how Naruto is gonna solve ninja aids.



> Funny enough Naruto actually answered that just now with the whole real Neji in his heart speach and that Neji's dreams will not die as long as they carry it.



LMAO, it was Hinata the source of that particular thought. Which is why I say teamwork is the manga's only saving grace.



> If you don't like that answer then their is nothing I can do for you because Kishi ain't gonna care if your not satisfied.



Neither will he care if you are.



> Chosen one or not has no real place in a thread compairing their leadership abilities.



It does have, because Naruto was given the chosen one role to be relevant again.



> Also Naruto hasn't had the time to consider what he needs to do he has gone from one emergancy to the next.
> 
> Hashirama in the mean time spent a good amount of time shooting the breeze with Madara doing nothing giving him plenty of time to plan things out. Then add to the fact that Hashirama didn't reach his goal until his later life creates even more time for him to come up with the village system.



That only helps my argument. Naruto isn't shown considering anything. It does not matter if he hasn't had the time, he just isn't shown considering anything. How is he gonna come up with an answer in such a short time if he doesn't have time to consider it? It's gonna drop on his lap because he's main character. Which is my grief. Naruto should consider it and that's why we'd consider him a main character.

Are you for real? Their clans were at war, there wasn't that much time. Also, if you consider relaxing outside of fights free time to think about it, then Naruto sitting at Ichiraku also counts. At least Hashirama thought about it in his free time. Naruto asked for one more bowl.



> Yeah I'm done.



Alright.



> Opinion will never beat facts in a debate and all I see here is an opinion about why you don't like what you see not facts about the results and goals of the two leaders we are comparing.



You're pretending you have the facts now?



> Then you have no place in this factual debate about their leadership qualities.



This isn't a debate whether Naruto leads or not, by Kishimoto's own stardards. This is a debate about Naruto's leadership being properly shown. OP started with pointing out Hashirama thought about the war problem and coming up with plans to fix it while Naruto hasn't even begun thinking about it. Maybe you're confused with some other thread.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 15, 2013)

Dem haters mad. They only talk about opinion & credit a nearfeatless Hashirama. Naruto's resume is stacked with Leadership feats. Naruto's been inspiring people to inspire others, that's a whole nother level of leadership. That's the type of shit that affects the inside. If only we had more Narutos in our world, I know my hood could use a couple.


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## fleaky (Mar 15, 2013)

for example: naruto changin nagato>reviving kakashi> defeat 7 swordsman and more


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## Hydro Spiral (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah, he's got potential, but his leadership skills are kinda lacking. 

I gotta agree with reunion arc Sasuke. Kishi ought to have had him working on that instead of the Sasuke chase. 



Seraphiel said:


> Erm...
> 
> They told him to go beat Obito, that was about it..


???


*Spoiler*: __


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## Sarry (Mar 15, 2013)

Haha, this thread still going?

Of course Hashi will be a better leader and stronger than Naruto, because he needed to be in order to survive that hell. 
Naruto can afford to be an idiot just because the world he lives in isn't as bad as Hashi's. 

In terms of leadership quality? 
Hashi is a better leader than Naruto. Mainly because Hashi was able to unite the world into villages, while Naruto needed Madara/Obito to do the work for him(i.e the alliance).


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## fleaky (Mar 15, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Haha, this thread still going?
> 
> Of course Hashi will be a better leader and stronger than Naruto, because he needed to be in order to survive that hell.
> Naruto can afford to be an idiot just because the world he lives in isn't as bad as Hashi's.
> ...


 racing of weapons( hashi peace) not equals peace


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 15, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Haha, this thread still going?
> 
> Of course Hashi will be a better leader and stronger than Naruto, because he needed to be in order to survive that hell.
> Naruto can afford to be an idiot just because the world he lives in isn't as bad as Hashi's.
> ...



Bro hashirama DIRECTLY partnered with Madara to make this happen. & they been conceiving & refining that idea since kids. Naruto is basically solo'n this shit by himself & he's still a kid.

Oh you claim Hashirama united the world into villages, which he really didn't do but let's say he did. Naruto unified the villages into 1 thing lol. Easier to make cement into bricks than to make bricks into a house.

Hashi made nice big blocks of stone & that's cool & shit but Naruto is about to make a fuckin pyramid lol


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## Lucaniel (Mar 15, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Bro hashirama DIRECTLY partnered with Madara to make this happen. & they been conceiving & refining that idea since kids. Naruto is basically solo'n this shit by himself & he's still a kid.
> 
> Oh you claim Hashirama united the world into villages, which he really didn't do but let's say he did. Naruto unified the villages into 1 thing lol. Easier to make cement into bricks than to make bricks into a house.
> 
> Hashi made nice big blocks of stone & that's cool & shit but Naruto is about to make a fuckin pyramid lol



okay, seriously

1. naruto is not soloing anything. he hasn't actually done anything yet. he hasn't built anything. you complete space cadet. what on _earth_ are you talking about. jesus christ. hashi and madara created a village and a system of governance. naruto has created _nothing_

2. they started when they were clearly younger than naruto is now

3. naruto did not unify the villages. jesus christ. you have the reading comprehension of a sloth with herpes-related neuralgia. the common threat of MADARA unified them. naruto had NOTHING to do with it

4. your analogies are retarded

edit:

fuck it, signposted for dumb people:

NARUTO DID NOT UNIFY THE VILLAGES.

THE COMMON THREAT OF MADARA UNIFIED THE VILLAGES

LEARN TO FUCKING READ


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## Seraphiel (Mar 15, 2013)

Hydro Spiral said:


> Yeah, he's got potential, but his leadership skills are kinda lacking.
> 
> I gotta agree with reunion arc Sasuke. Kishi ought to have had him working on that instead of the Sasuke chase.
> 
> ...



Except Naruto didn't change his mind Gaara did and Kishimoto attributed it to him fighting with  Naruto for 5 mins. That's just poor writing. Naruto literally had zero to do with him coming around except for being the object the alliance protected.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 15, 2013)

Seraphiel said:


> Except Naruto didn't change his mind Gaara did and Kishimoto attributed it to him fighting with  Naruto for 5 mins. That's just poor writing. Naruto literally had zero to do with him coming around except for being the object the alliance protected.



It was the imprinted Naruto Will in Gaara that made Oonoki change. Naruto's Will is like a virus. It spreads without him even having to be present. You need to understand that. Naruto's will is being spread to the entire shinobi world as we speak. Prepare your body for when Hashirama arrives, because not even the old gen is immune to this effect. Remember, Naruto was already given Hashirama's necklace, it's only a matter ot time before Hashirama places his faith in the boy wonder


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## Moonraker_One (Mar 15, 2013)

I think some people saw Naruto the idiot in chapter one and thought, "You know what? Fuck this guy. I want my main characters to be awesome and badass from chapter one."

So whenever they see Naruto do awesome stuff, like beat Pain or the 3rd Raikage, they cry fowl because in their mind this simpleton moron from chapter one could not possibly have gotten to the point he is at now.

I, however, like seeing a character start out weak and get stronger. That way, I get to see the character grow. Goku, Yusuke, a lot of them had to start out much weaker than they ended up.

When I see a character like Sasuke, whose personality is complete disinterest and acts like an emo kid, I do not like that. I like a cheerful positive character like Naruto. I think it's silly to like a character that doesn't have to work hard to get stronger.


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## fleaky (Mar 15, 2013)

Moonraker_One said:


> I think some people saw Naruto the idiot in chapter one and thought, "You know what? Fuck this guy. I want my main characters to be awesome and badass from chapter one."
> 
> So whenever they see Naruto do awesome stuff, like beat Pain or the 3rd Raikage, they cry fowl because in their mind this simpleton moron from chapter one could not possibly have gotten to the point he is at now.
> 
> ...


 sasuke working for bonuses too... naruto just show his talent later than sasuke


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## Lurko (Mar 15, 2013)

Hashi is better at the moment however it's pretty damn clear that naruto is either rs's successor or recarnation so it's only a matter of die.


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## fleaky (Mar 15, 2013)

Obd lurker said:


> Hashi is better at the moment however it's pretty damn clear that naruto is either rs's successor or recarnation so it's only a matter of die.


hashi been totally wrong in his politics


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## Raiden (Mar 15, 2013)

I see what you're saying.

But Hashirama didn't fight the Juubi at seventeen .

You guys are oversimplifying Naruto's track record when you say that he just talks about nice things.

Naruto is a critical reason why the Leaf wasn't destroyed TWICE in the last few years.


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## Sarry (Mar 16, 2013)

Moonraker_One said:


> I think some people saw Naruto the idiot in chapter one and thought, "You know what? Fuck this guy. I want my main characters to be awesome and badass from chapter one."
> 
> So whenever they see Naruto do awesome stuff, like beat Pain or the 3rd Raikage, they cry fowl because in their mind this simpleton moron from chapter one could not possibly have gotten to the point he is at now.
> 
> ...



Not quite no. Perhaps Kishi wanted to portray Naruto like a goofy and serious character. But it doesn't work since Naruto's personality has been inconsistent between "serious-jesus-mode" and "clueless-blathering-idiot". One chapter Naruto being a good character, then the next chapter he's acting like he's never seen a battle (versus Nagato) or how to act in the war (Itachi, Hinata)
At least for me, I do not see Naruto as a consistent and strong character. He's inconsistent, and at times shallow and annoying


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## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 16, 2013)

naruto would make a good politician.


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 16, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Not quite no. Perhaps Kishi wanted to portray Naruto like a goofy and serious character. But it doesn't work since Naruto's personality has been inconsistent between "serious-jesus-mode" and "clueless-blathering-idiot". One chapter Naruto being a good character, then the next chapter he's acting like he's never seen a battle (versus Nagato) or how to act in the war (Itachi, Hinata)
> At least for me, I do not see Naruto as a consistent and strong character. He's inconsistent, and at times shallow and annoying



But it's fine when Hashirama acts like a herb one chapter & then cracks the earth with a chakra flare up in the next? Or when Sasuke enters his ITACHI!!!REVENGE!!! Psychosis? Oh please, continue with the double standard. Lol


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> But it's fine when Hashirama acts like a herb one chapter & then cracks the earth with a chakra flare up in the next? Or when Sasuke enters his ITACHI!!!REVENGE!!! Psychosis? Oh please, continue with the double standard. Lol


hashirama jokes around and doesn't give a crap when the situation doesn't require him to, then reveals that he is very much in control whenever he needs to make his presence felt. there is none of the _real_ inconsistency naruto shows


Raiden said:


> I see what you're saying.
> 
> But Hashirama didn't fight the Juubi at seventeen .
> 
> ...



well, the one thing everyone's conceded is that he's powerful

which is really not the same thing (or even close to being the same) as him being a good leader


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## The World (Mar 16, 2013)

Raiden said:


> I see what you're saying.
> 
> But Hashirama didn't fight the Juubi at seventeen .
> 
> ...



I think you mean the Kyuubi

You can thank Rikudo for that


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2013)

Previous page, let me copy it. 
Naruto is the spirit from this Alliance. Without him, things would go wrong. How the hell is he a bad leader?


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## Saphira (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Previous page, let me copy it.
> Naruto is the spirit from this Alliance. Without him, things would go wrong. How the hell is he a bad leader?



being the spirit of the alliance =/= being a leader


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2013)

saphira said:


> being the spirit of the alliance =/= being a leader



Saving everyone's asses, making everyone stronger, taking the lead in the attack, .... is bad leader, okay...


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Previous page, let me copy it.
> Naruto is the spirit from this Alliance. Without him, things would go wrong. How the hell is he a bad leader?



he isn't a leader at all

the leaders are gaara and shikaku

naruto's more like a combination of the mascot and the team MVP


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## AlphaReaver (Mar 16, 2013)

saphira said:


> being the spirit of the alliance =/= being a leader



Are you serious? One of the main reasons you target the leader first is because it will break the group's morale. Did you not learn anything from this battle?? Obito wants to break Naruto's will, Madara wanted break Oonoki's. Leaders gon lead yo lol


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> he isn't a leader at all, numbnuts
> 
> the leaders are gaara and shikaku
> 
> naruto's more like a combination of the mascot and the team MVP



Gaara? Bitch please, where he at?
Shikaku? Bitch please, he is reading porn in heaven.

Since the moment Naruto joined the war, he is taking the lead.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Gaara? Bitch please, where he at?
> Shikaku? Bitch please, he is reading porn in heaven.
> 
> Since the moment Naruto joined the war, he is taking the lead.



> gaara agreed by popular consent among kages, in-story to be the military leader
> shikaku co-ordinating tactics throughout basically the whole war
> naruto is 'taking the lead' when he has shown no strategic ability and is basically just throwing lots of power around
> no reading comprehension whatsoever
> not even once

honestly if you see shikaku organising the entirely tactical and strategic doctrine of the army for like the entire war

and dismiss him the moment he dies, in favour of naruto, who basically just charges headlong at the juubi, then, in possibly the worst case of plot contrivance yet, gladhands the konoha 11 with chakra so they can have a stirring team moment, and then compounds this with that bullshit chakra bird

and think that all this sound and fury and spectacle, with no substance or intelligence behind it, makes him a 'leader'

then you may as well be brain-dead and on life-support, because then at least you wouldn't be tormenting others with your fathomless stupidity


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2013)

Oh Lucaniel, acting tough behind his computer again (bravely). Can't argue on a proper level and starts to insult. Nothing new, haha. 

Gaara is a better leader then Naruto you say, because of how he got the army together with his speech. Because he got respected by the other Kages. Bitch please, are you even trying? Gaara is a great commander, but Naruto would do just the same and he is even more respected.

Shikaku is more clever then Naruto, but that does not make him a better leader. He is not at the frontline, he can not take direct decisions when it's really needed. He does not have a 'hero reputation' and he doesn't have the skills to save hundreds of shinobi. 

Like I said before, haters gonna hate. I don't care actually, this is a fictional world you know, but at least do it with style, not with ridiculous arguments who are based on nothing. *I will ignore you* from now on, unless you say something interesting (ho ho).
/leaves thread.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2013)

> Oh Lucaniel, acting tough behind his computer again (bravely). Can't argue on a proper level and starts to insult. Nothing new, haha.



> refuted all your moronic points
> 'can't argue on a proper level'
> actually being this delusional 



> Gaara is a better leader then Naruto you say, because of how he got the army together with his speech. Because he got respected by the other Kages. Bitch please, are you even trying? Gaara is a great commander, but Naruto would do just the same and he is even more respected.



actually, i didn't say any of those things...i said gaara is the leader. because _he is_. he is _officially_ the leader. read the manga, numbnuts

but now that you bring it up, your fanfiction is hilarious. naruto is no more capable of eloquence than he is of brain surgery, and would be totally incapable of giving a speech of the sort gaara gave. furthermore, he is *not* more respected than gaara...who is a kage. 



> Shikaku is more clever then Naruto, but that does not make him a better leader. He is not at the frontline, he can not take direct decisions when it's really needed. He does not have a 'hero reputation' and he doesn't have the skills to save hundreds of shinobi.



you clearly have no idea what leadership entails, your criteria are nonsensical and juvenile ('hero reputation', please), and rely entirely on estimations of personal power with no regard as to any other facet of leadership. leave



> Like I said before, haters gonna hate. I don't care actually, this is a fictional world you know, but at least do it with style, not with ridiculous arguments who are based on nothing. I will ignore you from now on, unless you say something interesting (ho ho).



well, you'd have to, since you can't argue for shit


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## Bontakun (Mar 16, 2013)

Lucaniel's making solid arguments in this thread. Meanwhile Naruto fanboys have shown just how low they can sink, labeling people as haters, and refusing to acknowledge they maybe their hero isn't perfect in everything. Naruto is not as good a leader as Hashirama. Admitting that won't kill you. Not all Naruto fans are bigoted, but I am especially disappointed in AlphaReaver, EliteRamenNinja, and Fleaky in this thread.



EliteRamenNinja said:


> Oh Lucaniel, acting tough behind his computer again (bravely). Can't argue on a proper level and starts to insult. Nothing new, haha.
> 
> Gaara is a better leader then Naruto you say, because of how he got the army together with his speech. Because he got respected by the other Kages. Bitch please, are you even trying? Gaara is a great commander, but Naruto would do just the same and he is even more respected.
> 
> ...



Gaara united the ninja army with the help of Obito's threat. Naruto didn't do that. You said Naruto would do just the same, but where's the proof. That he's even more respected among the Kages is a lie, considering the taint of Sasuke on his respectability.

Shikaku knows how to use people, to delegate, to coordinate. So far, Naruto only knows how to use himself, and Gamahiro.

Comparing Naruto to the mascot and MVP is "something interesting" because it's spot-on. Did you respond to that, or are you resorting to the label of hater again? That's what I thought.



fleaky said:


> for example: naruto changin nagato>reviving kakashi> defeat 7 swordsman and more



I mean seriously now, you call this an argument? 

He changes one person at a time, like I've been saying since the start of this thread. And by lucky coincidence (aka plot) these people influence other people. That's not leadership. He didn't plan for that.

You can try to stretch it and say he goes to convert the most powerful people of any group, because he knows that will change the whole group (never explicitly stated that he's aware of doing this, mostly he's trying to fix the problem at hand). But what then? He is still at mercy to THEIR ideas, THEIR plans, not his own. Which is why he's less than Hashirama.


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2013)

So you jumped on the bandwagon too, it seems. Poor Bontakun. We "fanboys" you say haha, just watch the Telegrams you, it is full with haters. And most are without any good arguments, it is just a fact. Btw, you are the one who is talking like he is 100% right. 

Naruto perfect? Where the hell do I say that. He is not at all perfect and that is good! Perfect 'hero's' are fucking boring. But saying he isn't a good leader is just wrong and stupid. 

Gaara would not be even Kage without Naruto (who saved him), what about that? Gaara is like a Naruto 2.0 but less powerfull. You say the Alliance came together because of Obito. Well, Obito declared the war because of Naruto (and Bee). Shikaku knows to use people, to delegate, to coordinate, all true, but he is not that powerfull. He is not able to save hundreds of shinobi. So he lacks too in leadership. It's on 2 sides. Don't dislike on one when the other one lacks too. It is hypocrite!

Saving a lot of people, fighting the hardest, earned the most respect, giving everyone power-ups, ........... and people call Naruto a bad leader. Shit, the shit you are smoking must be great. Kinda jealous! 

And it is funny how you keep ignoring the post Toby made a few pages back. That post was just perfect.

PS: Till so far Hashirama did not prove he is a great leader. Ofc he will be one, but till so far we did not see how he did it and reacted, the following chapters will show us that. But hey, be happy, your thread got a lot of attention. Sadly there is also a lot of bullshit in it.

Anyway, the detractors don't make sense. They continue to use the same, shallow talking points over and over again, then when someone does, succesfuly, refute them, they show a wilingness to disregard facts.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2013)

can't be bothered waste time on the same lack of reading comprehension, LOL HATERZZ, and assorted nonsense arguments, but:



EliteRamenNinja said:


> And it is funny how you keep ignoring the post Toby made a few pages back. That post was just perfect.



how blind are you? i responded to that post and to every single one of toby's subsequent posts



EliteRamenNinja said:


> Anyway, the detractors don't make sense. They continue to use the same, shallow talking points over and over again, then when someone does, succesfuly, refute them, they show a wilingness to disregard facts.



i generally hesitate to essentially say NO U, but the degree to which this description resembles your own arguments, when you're trying to use it to characterise your opponents, is frankly weird. it's like some kind of inverted self-awareness


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## Saphira (Mar 16, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Are you serious? One of the main reasons you target the leader first is because it will break the group's morale.



...and this is exactly why Madara got rid of Shikaku & HQ first. Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself here...

Also, most of the people who post in this thread have no idea what being a leader actually means  

Just because Naruto is the alliance's strongest fighter doesn't make him 'the best leader evaaaa!!!!!11!!'  Fact is, Hashirama always was, and always will be a better leader than Naruto, whether you Naruto fanboys like it or not. You have to understand that Naruto was never written as a strategist or as an intelligent leader...he's an emotional, inspiring hero who relies on instinct and TnJ to win his battles;


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2013)

saphira said:


> he's an emotional hero who relies on instinct and TnJ to win his battles;



*A leader: *

- Is a person who influences a group of people towards the achievement of a goal. _Well Naruto is doing that. _
- Needs to be strong. _Well, Naruto is._
- A requirement for leadership is personal vision - the ability to visualize your goal as an accomplished fact. _Well, Naruto never gives up, so no problem._
- To be a leader, one must have followers. To have followers, one must have their trust. _Well, everyone trusts Naruto._
- A leader by its meaning is one who goes first and leads by example, so that others are motivated to follow him. _Well, Naruto is doing that. _
- A leader needs to be able to talk with people, also opponents. _Well, Naruto can. _

It seems I know well enough what being a leader means... Now please try to argue these facts above.


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## Bontakun (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> So you jumped on the bandwagon too, it seems. Poor Bontakun. We "fanboys" you say haha, just watch the Telegrams you, it is full with haters. And most are without any good arguments, it is just a fact. Btw, you are the one who is talking like he is 100% right.
> 
> Naruto perfect? Where the hell do I say that. He is not at all perfect and that is good! Perfect 'hero's' are fucking boring. But saying he isn't a good leader is just wrong and stupid.
> 
> ...



Haven't been browsing threads in KL and KT lately.

Good. Being inspirational and reliable, he has about half of what a good leader needs. I said he is not as good as Hashirama, that's what OP is about, and it's true because he lacks the long term vision and ability to influence society. And your group never addressed that. You just keep repeating over and over how influential he is. 

You are attributing the accomplishments of people Naruto saved to Naruto's own accomplishments, like Fleaky did. I never said Shikaku was a better leader. I said Hashirama was. Shikaku lacks many leadership traits, too. And you're still going on with labels like "hypocrite" instead of talking straight.

Saving a lot of people: He's the MVP.
Fighting the hardest: He's the MVP.
Earned the most respect :He's the MVP.
Giving everyone powerups: Shikaku's strategy.

^ Where's the leadership?

Thread's hella long. I skipped mentioning a lot of good arguments on both sides, but I read them. Now, I'm just calling a certain group of you out for not putting up a proper argument and repeating the same things over and over.

The ninja village system is still working. That's proof enough to block out the sun.



EliteRamenNinja said:


> Anyway, the detractors don't make sense. They continue to use the same, shallow talking points over and over again, then when someone does, succesfuly, refute them, they show a wilingness to disregard facts.



Go ahead and requote anything from this thread you think was "successful refute" and I'll show you it's not. (Or concede that it is, hey I'm not perfect after all).


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## Rokudaime (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Anyway, the detractors don't make sense. They continue to use the same, shallow talking points over and over again, then when someone does, succesfuly, refute them, they show a wilingness to disregard facts.



Well, you know what? 

Even if Naruto went out to save 100 millions people, commanding an armies to take down alien command ships, come out an amazing strategy to minimize the causalities and inflict maximum damage on the enemy forces, and have a bunch of people willingly to follow him, in the end, he will still get bashed or downplayed from the haters because he failed to save a little kitten from the collateral damage that caused by the enemies, while at the same time, they continue to praises "insert their favorite character" for able to save a poor little kitten in the sewer.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> *A leader: *
> 
> - Is a person who influences a group of people towards the achievement of a goal. _Well Naruto is doing that. _
> - Needs to be strong. _Well, Naruto is._
> ...



look at all the turd-polishing

- no coherent social/moral vision
- no resource management ability
- no ability to delegate
- all instances of getting through to people by talking, in part II, were solid TnJ nonsense
- isn't actually that smart in general
- doesn't really have any goals beyond wanting to be hokage and a vague wish to end conflict with no idea of how to do it


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## Bontakun (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> *A leader: *
> 
> - Is a person who influences a group of people towards the achievement of a goal. _Well Naruto is doing that. _
> - Needs to be strong. _Well, Naruto is._
> ...



Your definition is flawed. But let's address the points.
-Yes, he influences.
-No, "how much does Obama bench" has never been important in the presidential race.
-Vision - Naruto lacks this. His vision is "I'll work something out." Fail.
-Followers - Naruto lacks this. No one is following him. They are using him as a strong fighter who shares their goal. He had one follower, the late Konan. And he failed to use her and let her die. And then magically you transformed this point into something about trust. That's just awful logic.
-Not all leaders lead by example. There are ones that devise a system that changes the behavior of people in the direction they want. That's what you need to create world peace.
-Naruto shouts at his opponents and annoys them. He cannot give any kind of convincing answer to their concerns.



Rokudaime said:


> Well, you know what?
> 
> Even if Naruto went out to save 100 millions people, commanding an armies to take down alien command ships, come out an amazing strategy to minimize the causalities and inflict maximum damage on the enemy forces, and have a bunch of people willingly to follow him, in the end, he will still get bashed or downplayed from the haters because he failed to save a little kitten from the collateral damage that caused by the enemies, while at the same time, they continue to praises "insert their favorite character" for able to save a poor little kitten in the sewer.



You just provided a way to illustrate the point of Naruto's leadership shortcomings.

Naruto is Will Smith in ID4. He saved the world from alien invasion. Would you elect Will Smith in ID4 as president? No. Same thing. Strong =/= leader.

And where is this amazing strategy Naruto came up with? At least have your analogies be sort of accurate.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2013)

naruto is additionally about as capable of coming up with a strategy for defending against a large-scale invasion, or of commanding armies, as he is of writing _War and Peace_

edit: ah, it's been pointed out


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## Saphira (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> *A leader: *
> 
> - Is a person who influences a group of people towards the achievement of a goal. _Well Naruto is doing that. _
> - Needs to be strong. _Well, Naruto is._
> ...



What Lucaniel already said. Plus: one of the most important traits of a leader is *vision*; Hashirama was only 10 (or 12?...not really sure how old he is in the flashback) and already had a clear vision of what he wanted to do, while Naruto has never shown such a thing. All he does and wants is to protect Konoha, protect konoha, protect konoha,etc.... Not to mention that leadership requires intelligence, which Hashirama has already proven he has, while Naruto is an idiot who relies on instinct, as I said before. 

I'm not trying to say Naruto isn't (or more accurately_ won't become_) a leader, just that he'll never be as good a leader as Hashirama.


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## ch1p (Mar 16, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Anyway, the detractors don't make sense. They continue to use the same, shallow talking points over and over again, then when someone does, succesfuly, refute them, they show a wilingness to disregard facts.



The detractors are talking about how the manga has no depth concerning Naruto. You and co are saying it does not matter whether it has depth or not because Kishimoto says the guy is a leader, then he is a leader. You're not quite aware of who's making the shallow talk points here. If anything, complain the detractors are being too picky on this matter, but they're not the ones being shallow. You are. Especially you, as its been pointed out, since you can only cheerleader.



Lucaniel said:


> naruto's more like a combination of the mascot and the team MVP


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2013)

Hashirama has showed intelligence? Please say me wich panel. Since Naruto thought the same as he on the age of 12-13 -> Zabuza arc. 
And I gave the most important qualities a leader needs (wich Naruto has), and y'all just ignore them and come up with other stuff. What badassery! 

Serious... I am out now, I will read tomorrow with all pleasure the next comments. Enjoy me!


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## Bontakun (Mar 16, 2013)

So as this thread becomes really, really circular, I will make some closing remarks.
Honorable mention to PikaCheeka for making excellent points, Ch1p for making good points, and Lucaniel for being tireless in his responses. Even though they will definitely be my opponents were we in a thread asking "is Naruto a good character?". And blk for good responses. And on the other side of the argument, Sarry and BiNexus.

Thanks for posting and reading, all.


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## Rios (Mar 16, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> So as this thread becomes really, really circular, I will make some closing remarks.
> Honorable mention to PikaCheeka for making excellent points, Ch1p for making good points, and Lucaniel for being tireless in his responses. Even though they will definitely be my opponents were we in a thread asking "is Naruto a good character?". And blk for good responses. And on the other side of the argument, Sarry and BiNexus.
> 
> Thanks for posting and reading, all.



you make one popular thread and you suddenly think you are some kind of a bigshot


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## Naruto (Mar 16, 2013)

Ugh.

You guys have stopped being civil, I'm tired, closing thread. May or may not ban a few of you, but for now I'm not gonna do anything.

Please don't insult each other over japanese comic books. Thanks.


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