# 7G Gai vs WA Tsunade



## t0xeus (Apr 26, 2022)

Katsuyu restricted

Reactions: Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2022)

Tsunade outlasts him with Byakugō - Sōzō Saisei.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Optimistic 4


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## jesusus (Apr 26, 2022)

Gai buys some salt from the Salty Salesman and throws it at Tsunade the Slug-human cross-species offspring GG

Reactions: Funny 6 | Creative 1


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## Shazam (Apr 26, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade outlasts him with Byakugō - Sōzō Saisei.



this, even against restricted Tsunade, Gai still loses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## t0xeus (Apr 26, 2022)

Shazam said:


> this, even against restricted Tsunade, Gai still loses.


If immortal Hidan gets destroyed, what does Tsunade do? Her survivability is even higher than Hidan’s?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## LostSelf (Apr 26, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> If immortal Hidan gets destroyed, what does Tsunade do? Her survivability is even higher than Hidan’s?


She's notably more durable than Hidan.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 26, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> She's notably more durable than Hidan.


Oh really how so
Explain this. As she hasn’t tanked any attack without needing to heal from it . While hidan has tanked and tanks Kakuzu attacks regularly as part of their combo without needing to heal


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## t0xeus (Apr 26, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> She's notably more durable than Hidan.


How so?
He tanked Fuuton Atsugai to the face with no damage
Tsunade was getting fucked over by chakra scalpel from a jonin

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Lewd 1


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## Bonly (Apr 26, 2022)

Tsunade wins with little to no problems as Tsunade can take and heal from whatever Gai can dish out while also outlasting Gai so once Gai starts to tire out he's gonna get punched and turned into red mist

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Santoryu (Apr 26, 2022)

Hirudora GG

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Lewd 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 26, 2022)

So based on the hirudora bursting V3 susanoo arguments how much damage does tsunade take before regen kicks in? @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask @LostSelf 

educate me

Reactions: Funny 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 26, 2022)

tsunade wins by in-character feats

Reactions: Kage 2 | Lewd 2


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## LostSelf (Apr 26, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> How so?
> He tanked Fuuton Atsugai to the face with no damage
> Tsunade was getting fucked over by chakra scalpel from a jonin



It is the point of his inmortality, as long as you don't cut him to pieces, it doesn't matter what kind of blunt damage you give him. He can be injured, but since he's inmortal, he'll still fight. 

We see this when Shikamaru stabs his arms with shadows and Hidan still can move them.


But his body is not that hard.



Tsunade was not turn to shreds with Magatama or Mabui's teleportation technique. Unless we think that paper bombs or a shuriken are stronger than magatama. Hidan can still fight despite having his body injured a lot, or his bones broken. But that doesn't mean he can take attacks better than Tsunade (durability wise, I mean. I know his inmortality gives him an edge), and paper bombs and this shuriken explain it.

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> How so?
> He tanked Fuuton Atsugai to the face with no damage
> Tsunade was getting fucked over by chakra scalpel from a jonin



Surviving Tensō no Jutsu and 3 point blank Magatama >> surviving Atsugai.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 26, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> It is the point of his inmortality, as long as you don't cut him to pieces, it doesn't matter what kind of blunt damage you give him. He can be injured, but since he's inmortal, he'll still fight.


Where were you in the Gai Vs immortal thread. I didn’t read you saying Gai couldn’t put down hidan. I assume hirudora is considered blunt damage 


LostSelf said:


> We see this when Shikamaru stabs his arms with shadows and Hidan still can move them.
> 
> 
> But his body is not that hard.
> ...


Fair enough


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## LostSelf (Apr 26, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Where were you in the Gai Vs immortal thread. I didn’t read you saying Gai couldn’t put down hidan. I assume hirudora is considered blunt damage



Gai doesn't need Hirudora to destroy Hidan. He just need to grab his weapon and turn him to ground meat. Nothing Hidan can do about it.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 26, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Gai doesn't need Hirudora to destroy Hidan. He just need to grab his weapon and turn him to ground meat. Nothing Hidan can do about it.


He would grab hidan weapon and cut him up
Oh kk
And he would know to do this before ever getting scratched . When on a trade hidan can manage that ?
Not the thread for it but I just find it surprising that Gai win con is to grab his enemy own weapon to then slice said enemy up


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## LostSelf (Apr 26, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> He would grab hidan weapon and cut him up
> Oh kk
> And he would know to do this before ever getting scratched . When on a trade hidan can manage that ?
> Not the thread for it but I just find it surprising that Gai win con is to grab his enemy own weapon to then slice said enemy up



The guy who, even with Kakuzu's help, failed to tag a tired Kakashi who was worried for his stamina.

Vs the gated user who in base have been disarming swordsmen and have CqC skills to look better than KCM Naruto (with clones) and Minato against Obito in Taijutsu.

Definitely, my money's on Hidan!

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 26, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> The guy who, even with Kakuzu's help, failed to tag a tired Kakashi who was worried for his stamina.
> 
> Vs the gated user who in base have been disarming swordsmen and have CqC skills to look better than KCM Naruto (with clones) and Minato against Obito in Taijutsu.
> 
> Definitely, my money's on Hidan!


Gai is more skilled dont be flippant not doubting that 
However he has a lot more work to do than a guy who simply needs to pull off a mistake scratch . Especially in a situaiton where Gai doesn’t have full knowledge. Now you give Gai full knowledge and sure he will win rather easily


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 26, 2022)

Tsunade has survived Mabui's transportation jutsu and the village busting CST in base. As well as point blank Magatama the same ones that broke through Gaara and Ohnoki's combined defense with Byakugou. At the very worst she should be able to outlast plus all she has to do is land one hit to severely injure Gai.


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## Speedyamell (Apr 26, 2022)

Katsuyu sol- oh I see

Tsunade mid diffs. She laughs off his shit and finger flicks him to the pure land

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 26, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Tsunade has survived Mabui's transportation jutsu and the village busting CST in base. As well as point blank Magatama the same ones that broke through Gaara and Ohnoki's combined defense with Byakugou. At the very worst she should be able to outlast plus all she has to do is land one hit to severely injure Gai.


Apparently gates boost Gai durability . Seeing he could survive hirudora explosion which we know > V3 susanoo that should put his durability above tsunade striking strength since she maxes out at rib cage susanoo 

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask tell em


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 26, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Apparently gates boost Gai durability . Seeing he could survive hirudora explosion which we know > V3 susanoo that should put his durability above tsunade striking strength since she maxes out at rib cage susanoo
> 
> @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask tell em


We don't know whether or not V3 was busted however I seriously doubt it considering the one he used against Kisame was larger than the one used against Madara and he wasn't killed and he sure isn't more durable than a V3 Susanoo. 

So yeah I highly doubt Gai is more durable than a susanoo hyped for its defense.


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## Monarch (Apr 26, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Apparently gates boost Gai durability . Seeing he could survive hirudora explosion which we know > V3 susanoo that should put his durability above tsunade striking strength since she maxes out at rib cage susanoo
> 
> @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask tell em


Sounds like you are still sore after the beatdown I handed you and are now desperately craving my attention.

Gates do increase reactions and durability as seen with 8G Guy punching Juudara through his TSO shield without breaking his arm, Night Guy only breaking his leg but decimating Juudara's torso, and allowing him to operate at God tier speeds, which means he has to be capable of reacting to them.

So 7G Guy surviving a portion of the dispersed Hirudora by Juudara's staff with a few broken ribs can be attributed to a durability amp. Unless of course, you believe Base Guy's reactions are also God tier and can take a good portion of the Hirudora's punch that left a stronger, Gyuki amped Kisame flat on his back after overcoming Daikodan than the 30% that made him cough blood in base.


Stay mad though.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 26, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Sounds like you are still sore after the beatdown I handed you and are now desperately craving my attention.
> 
> Gates do increase reactions and durability as seen with 8G Guy punching Juudara through his TSO shield without breaking his arm, Night Guy only breaking his leg but decimating Juudara's torso, and allowing him to operate at God tier speeds, which means he has to be capable of reacting to them.
> 
> ...


So gates Gai can tank tsunade punch 
I just wanted you to spread the word 
Since clearly EVERYONE else who has read the manga thinks otherwise


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 26, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> We don't know whether or not V3 was busted however I seriously doubt it considering the one he used against Kisame was larger than the one used against Madara and he wasn't killed and he sure isn't more durable than a V3 Susanoo.
> 
> So yeah I highly doubt Gai is more durable than a susanoo hyped for its defense.


I know it wasn’t 
It was a dig at some clown , who thinks gâtes Gai is some A3 durability monster

Reactions: Informative 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 26, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Gai is more skilled dont be flippant not doubting that
> However he has a lot more work to do than a guy who simply needs to pull off a mistake scratch . Especially in a situaiton where Gai doesn’t have full knowledge. Now you give Gai full knowledge and sure he will win rather easily



When Gai goes gates, Hidan can't do a thing, he can't react, he can't defend himself. He's going to get speedblitzed. I can argue base Gai can disarm him, but I am absolutely certain Gated Gai can rip off Hidan's scythe off him and behead him. He can't outmuscle Gai nor react well to him.

If Gai has no knowledge, sure, I'd see that happen. But with knowledge, Hidan is not touching him. _He failed to touch a tired Kakashi even with combo attacks from Kakuzu_. He's not touching Gai unless he gets too cocky.


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## Monarch (Apr 26, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> I know it wasn’t
> It was a dig at some clown ,


But you are the only clown on this thread, whose reading comprehension and minimum knowledge of physics are practically 0.

Kishi illustrates my point perfectly when he has Guy kicking Juudara and his shin gets broken in multiple places by the force of the impact, but his arm doesn't suffer the same issue after punching Juudara through his TSO shield:



And that's easy to explain, because Night Guy is even more powerful than Sekizo punches, and more force was redirected to Guy's body as a result, hence why his tibia bone ended up broken.

Please explain how this isn't a matter of durability when Kishimoto spoonfed you about it, MHA massive clown.

Do you genuinely think Base Guy can withstand forces capable of breaking through TSOs to his body when 30% Kisame made him cough blood? 


MHA massive fan said:


> who thinks gâtes Gai is some A3 durability monster


Since when is surviving Hirudora with a few broken ribs A3 durability level?

If you feel the need of blowing this out of proportion it shows me you are far too desperate. Maybe start with this before your next reply:







Thank you and good luck.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 6


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## Gin Ichimaru (Apr 26, 2022)

gai blitze and one-shots

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Informative 1 | Kage 1


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## Gin Ichimaru (Apr 26, 2022)

this

gai kinda unironically has higher durability than tsunade

but its ok, the tsunade fans will go "mitosis means you divide so you can byakugo your way to grow a new head and brain " but newton's third law of motion doesn't apply

Reactions: Kage 2


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## Black zetsu (Apr 26, 2022)

Tsunade low diff 

Sannin wankers > canon 

It's clear that base jman followers are the victor power in this forum

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Symmetry (Apr 26, 2022)

I’m humble enough to admit I don’t have an answer here

If she does tank Hirudora then she wins but that’s something you can’t prove one way or the other really. If Hirudora broke Madara’s V3 susanoo then she should die, but if it didn’t then I don’t know.
@SakuraLover16 pointed out that the Hirudora against Kisame was larger then the one against Madara, which if true (don’t have scans) then it’s really questionable. Since you then have V2 lariat > Kisame > Madara’s V3 susanoo which is……questionable at best

BUT we don’t really know the power of Hirudora outright, and Tsunade’s uppers limits of Byakugou haven’t really been explored in terms of blunt force explosions

I legit don’t have an answer, can see arguments for both sides

Thus, If Tsunade lives Hirudora, she wins via outlasting. If not, she loses obviously

Katsuyu changes things drastically though IMO.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1 | Friendly 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> @SakuraLover16 pointed out that the Hirudora against Kisame was larger then the one against Madara, which if true (don’t have scans) then it’s really questionable. Since you then have V2 lariat > Kisame > Madara’s V3 susanoo which is……questionable at best




*Spoiler*: _Vs Kisame_ 










*Spoiler*: _Vs Madara_ 









One dwarfs the island turtle; the other is dwarfed by the crater left by Gyūki's whirlwind.


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> But you are the only clown on this thread, whose reading comprehension and minimum knowledge of physics are practically 0.
> 
> Kishi illustrates my point perfectly when he has Guy kicking Juudara and his shin gets broken in multiple places by the force of the impact, but his arm doesn't suffer the same issue after punching Juudara through his TSO shield:
> 
> ...


Say it with your chest tsunade punches 7G gai in the face what happens 
Go on


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> When Gai goes gates, Hidan can't do a thing, he can't react, he can't defend himself. He's going to get speedblitzed. I can argue base Gai can disarm him, but I am absolutely certain Gated Gai can rip off Hidan's scythe off him and behead him. He can't outmuscle Gai nor react well to him.
> 
> If Gai has no knowledge, sure, I'd see that happen. But with knowledge, Hidan is not touching him. _He failed to touch a tired Kakashi even with combo attacks from Kakuzu_. He's not touching Gai unless he gets too cocky.


Then we agree

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nali (Apr 27, 2022)

Sōtenkyaku gg = tsunade claps him​

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Symmetry (Apr 27, 2022)

Nali said:


> Sōtenkyaku gg = tsunade claps him​


What even is that tech?


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## Nali (Apr 27, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> What even is that tech?


A kick from great highs crushing down with enormus amount of force (It was capable of totally destroys madara's susanoo ribcage so gai has no chance to survive this). It Is probably the greates tsunade's Attack.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Architect (Apr 27, 2022)

Gai blitzes

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Casval Rem Aznable (Apr 27, 2022)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> gai blitze and one-shots

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## jesusus (Apr 27, 2022)

@JuicyyyGstring thoughts?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> *Spoiler*: _Vs Kisame_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The angle helps a lot, the island turtle looks way behind. Doubt the jutsu is even big enough to cover the entire island turtle, or Gai wouldn't would be basically nuking himself and his team everytime he uses it. There's really not much to adequately compare both, though I'd not be surprised since the one Gai used against Madara had him tired.


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## Ludi (Apr 27, 2022)

Could go either way depending on if Tsunade can tank hirudora


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## Nali (Apr 27, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Could go either way depending on if Tsunade can tank hirudora


Yes She can with sozo saisei


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## Mockingbyrd (Apr 27, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> How so?
> He tanked Fuuton Atsugai to the face with no damage
> Tsunade was getting fucked over by chakra scalpel from a jonin


She has great feats against high pressure.
Like tanking shinra tensei without byakugou, while being our of charaka, healing whole village.
Resisting tenso no jutus, which was considered to be impossibile for anyone besides A3, who is considered to be inhuman or have extra tough physique, which means she is inhumanly resistant as well and that's without her byakugou.
And that chakra scalpel was meant to completely immobile him, but while rusty she still managed to continue fighting, again, without byakugou.


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## Lyren (Apr 27, 2022)

Tsunade literally one shots him after playing possum, but I doubt that will ever come to play since he can't bypass her durability.
He has the speed advantage but she either outlasts or eventually hits him

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> The angle helps a lot, the island turtle looks way behind. Doubt the jutsu is even big enough to cover the entire island turtle, or Gai wouldn't would be basically nuking himself and his team everytime he uses it. There's really not much to adequately compare both, though I'd not be surprised since the one Gai used against Madara had him tired.


He was already beat up against madara
Meaning that one would be the weakest and smallest 
And he was most fresh against kisame making it the largest and strongest version 

seeing MP couldn’t even poke holes in shoten kisame or even pink mist him , I am not sure why people are so dam sure hirudora is this turn people to dust sort or move , as even if it’s a 1 hit kill or in an entirely different scale from MP it still wouldn’t give it said abilities 

it clearly outscales MP in AOE which is what Gai could be alluding to + it’s ability to defeat the enemy . Not much is implied or said about it.
If you get what I mean 

not to say Sending V3  is an outlier , Only to state sending it flying isn’t a good indication how much damage damage it does to a person 

we already saw kabuto tiny suiton wash away rib cage susanoo. Unless the implication is kabuto suiton can pink mist or kill ninja on impact then it’s obvious hirudora sending V3 susanoo flying is over inflated


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

Not much Tsunade can do, AT blows her away much easier than Daikodan and BFRs her easier than V3 EMS Susano

MP also overwhelms her regen and sears her flesh into hardened burnt pizza

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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 27, 2022)

It should also be noted that chakra scapel can do internal damage without doing external damage.

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## jesusus (Apr 27, 2022)

Gai is sub-Pizza level so Tsunade tanks MP, let alone Hirudora

Reactions: Funny 4


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

jesusus said:


> Gai is sub-Pizza level so Tsunade tanks MP, let alone Hirudora


This is true

Minato, Kakashi and Gaara (3 Kage) let 7G Guy go at Juubi Jin Madara, the Jin stronger than the neighborhood explosion tanking Jubito and the bijuu taijutsu tanking Madara, knowing he had no chance of even damaging a squishy medic

Minato, Kakashi and Gaara are retards in my book

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sufex (Apr 27, 2022)

jesusus said:


> Gai is sub-Pizza level so Tsunade tanks MP, let alone Hirudora


Where is this pizza scaling from

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Shazam (Apr 27, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Could go either way depending on if Tsunade can tank hirudora



well she isn’t going to explode, so she just instantly heals

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 27, 2022)

Tsunade isn't even touching Gai here.. 

And Gated Gai can still attack at range. 

Everytime it's Tsunade vs any notable kage tier with even mid range she's at a big disadvantage.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Tsunade isn't even touching Gai here..
> 
> And Gated Gai can still attack at range.
> 
> Everytime it's Tsunade vs any notable kage tier with even mid range she's at a big disadvantage.


1. How much damage do you think Hirudora would do to tsunade 
2. How many times do you think Gai can fire it ?


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## Shazam (Apr 27, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Tsunade isn't even touching Gai here..
> 
> And Gated Gai can still attack at range.
> 
> Everytime it's Tsunade vs any notable kage tier with even mid range she's at a big disadvantage.



except Gai using 7th Gate and firing off his ranged attacks as Tsunade heals is only going to result in Gai getting exhausted, rather quickly.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> 1. How much damage do you think Hirudora would do to tsunade
> 2. How many times do you think Gai can fire it ?


It was enough to put Kisame amped on his with no KI and going through 2 of his attacks. 
Kisame is naturally more durable than Tsunade. Tsunade has to use her seal to match and out do him in terms of tankiness. 
So safe to assume it will smoke her if she hasn't already activated her seal. 

This was pre active WA Gai. 
If Gai can bounce between gates 4 times and use a last ditch one to BFR Madara, safe to assume at the worst case he can atleast use 2 Hirudora. 

Even one is enough to put Tsunade down for a good while. It's not like she can no sell it. She'll heal but she'll take damage. 
And Gai can in the meantime do any other gated attack . 

Byakugou repairs cellular level damage, a concussion is out of syllabus for it. Hirudora doesn't do any cutting or slashing damage for Byakugou to actively heal through.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 27, 2022)

Shazam said:


> except Gai using 7th Gate and firing off his ranged attacks as Tsunade heals is only going to result in Gai getting exhausted, rather quickly.


Nice


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> It was enough to put Kisame amped on his with no KI and going through 2 of his attacks.


2 of kisame attacks? He only fired dAikodan. Also the no KI argument is nice and all but seeing explosion was the largest seen hirudora kisame surviving it is good on kisame . Less so on Gai, as his priority would have been to make the blast as large as possible to kill all the sharks . Why would a larger air blast be weaker than a smaller one is the question I would like you to answer


Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kisame is naturally more durable than Tsunade.


This is entirely baseless , hilariously so 


Leaf Hurricane said:


> Tsunade has to use her seal to match and out do him in terms of tankiness.


Actually without she has been cut and has been shown to be as vulnerable as kisame . Both can get injured by basic Kunai 


Leaf Hurricane said:


> So safe to assume it will smoke her if she hasn't already activated her seal.


Not really based on only surface damage to kisame 


Leaf Hurricane said:


> This was pre active WA Gai.
> If Gai can bounce between gates 4 times and use a last ditch one to BFR Madara, safe to assume at the worst case he can atleast use 2 Hirudora.


Ok so 2 hirudora you feel is enough to pink mist tsunade or do what level of damage ? Describe it . Does it turn her to dust ? What does it do? Smoking her skin sort of damage if that is something she can easily regen from


Leaf Hurricane said:


> Even one is enough to put Tsunade down for a good while. It's not like she can no sell it. She'll heal but she'll take damage.
> And Gai can in the meantime do any other gated attack .


But other gated attacks are much weaker by feats and by Gai own statement . Eg: he said Hirudora is on an entirely different level to MP. So if hirudora isn’t putting her down , following up with something weaker seems like a waste of both their time 


Leaf Hurricane said:


> Byakugou repairs cellular level damage, a concussion is out of syllabus for it. Hirudora doesn't do any cutting or slashing damage for Byakugou to actively heal through.


 so she gets knocked out ? Or what ? Because of being split in half didn’t make her loose consciousness , it’s hilarious to think a hard hit to the head would


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> The angle helps a lot, the island turtle looks way behind. Doubt the jutsu is even big enough to cover the entire island turtle, or Gai wouldn't would be basically nuking himself and his team everytime he uses it. There's really not much to adequately compare both, though I'd not be surprised since the one Gai used against Madara had him tired.



Gai fired it toward the island. He aimed it at Kisame, who was floating between Gai and the island.

*Spoiler*: __ 









In the first scan of my last post you can see Hirudora still blocking out the sky from Naruto and co’s perspective, so it was still a lot bigger than the island.

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## jesusus (Apr 27, 2022)

@FlamingRain arguing for Hirudora so it makes the Sannin look better by portrayal scaling

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

jesusus said:


> @FlamingRain arguing for Hirudora so it makes the Sannin look better by portrayal scaling



I’ve been exposed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

No arguments for Boulder stopping Katsuyu acid soloing here, I guess people got the memo against Saiken

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Danisor (Apr 27, 2022)

The Gai blitzes army owned the Sannin band

On-topic: Gai blitzes Tsunade, as per canon

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> No arguments for Boulder stopping Katsuyu acid soloing here, I guess people got the memo against Saiken



Katsuyu was restricted because she’s too godly for this fight.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Monarch (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Say it with your chest tsunade punches 7G gai in the face what happens
> Go on


He'd obviously take damage, but less than he would if he was in base.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Useful 1


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## SSMG (Apr 27, 2022)

Tsunade gets low diff'd by Base Guy. 

7g literally bends her over and puts a Hirudora right up where the sun don't shine and rips her apart from the inside out.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 3


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> He'd obviously take damage, but less than he would if he was in base.


How much damage my G
Say it with your chest . I mean in your beautiful mind he has V3 bursting punches so he must be at least as durable as that else his hands would fall off from the force of his punch 
So why would he take damage from someone who can’t even break rib cage susanoo?

sounds like you couldn’t even manage to stay consistent


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## Monarch (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> How much damage my G
> Say it with your chest . I mean in your beautiful mind he has V3 bursting punches so he must be at least as durable as that else his hands would fall off from the force of his punch


When did I say he has V3 bursting punches?

And in case you failed to realize Guy did not take the full force of the Hirudora in his face, you can see the tiger being bisected and traveling sideways away from him just before the explosion.


MHA massive fan said:


> So why would he take damage from someone who can’t even break rib cage susanoo?


Tsunade did crack ribcage Susanoo.

Also, just because someone is able to survive a portion of Hirudora's force with a couple of broken ribs doesn't mean they are now invulerable to weaker attacks.

It's like saying that if a person survives getting hit by a car with fractured bones, the same person is now invulnerable to punches and kicks. 

Didn't Kisame survive V2 lariat, yet he was still damaged by weaker attacks? The same concept applies here.  


MHA massive fan said:


> sounds like you couldn’t even manage to stay consistent


I do though, it's not my fault you can't keep up my man.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Mockingbyrd (Apr 27, 2022)

Can guy deal more damage than Tenso no jutsu or chou shinra tensei, without eighth gate?
And I am not talk about just bit more, but times more as her durability drastically increases after using byakugou.


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> When did I say he has V3 bursting punches?


You didn’t ? So what happened to the V3. Detail that for me , maybe I assumed wrong . 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> And in case you failed to realize Guy did not take the full force of the Hirudora in his face, you can see the tiger being bisected and traveling sideways away from him just before the explosion.


He was right behind the explosion and he didn’t take the full force.  seems all one needs to do to survive it is step a little to the left or right then 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Tsunade did crack ribcage Susanoo.


Crack =/= break 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Also, just because someone is able to survive a portion of Hirudora's force with a couple of broken ribs doesn't mean they are now invulerable to weaker attacks.


A portion while being at point blank range from it .  


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> It's like saying that if a person survives getting hit by a car with fractured bones, the same person is now invulnerable to punches and kicks.
> 
> Didn't Kisame survive V2 lariat, yet he was still damaged by weaker attacks? The same concept applies here.
> 
> I do though, it's not my fault you can't keep up my man.


 V2 lariat is a stronger attack than Hirudora though. Not sure why you mention it . Though you make my point kisame was damaged by a Kunai as well. Gai by shoten kisame punch . If all hirudora does to you when you are in its vicinity is a few broken ribs then perhaps it’s Simply not as strong as you think

inb4 you now claim it broke V3 susanoo when you just implied in this post you never made such claim


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## Shazam (Apr 27, 2022)

Gai wank. In full progress.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Gai wank. In full progress.


V3 busting susanoo punch continues   
even though A4 did it first with back pack combo


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## Monarch (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> You didn’t ? So what happened to the V3. Detail that for me , maybe I assumed wrong .


I'll cover that below.


MHA massive fan said:


> He was right behind the explosion and he didn’t take the full force.  seems all one needs to do to survive it is step a little to the left or right then


Or maybe also get hit by the portion of the tiger that was bisected and travelled away.


MHA massive fan said:


> Crack =/= break


Cracking is synonymous with breaking.

The words you were looking for is busting it open.


MHA massive fan said:


> A portion while being at point blank range from it .


So?

You literally see it travelling sideaways away from Guy.


MHA massive fan said:


> V2 lariat is a stronger attack than Hirudora though.


If you're blind maybe. 

Hirudora overcame the full power of Gyuki amped Kisame's Daikodan, then left the same Gyuki amped Kisame flat on his back.

It also sent a V3 Susanoo an island away.

Can V2 lariat even overpower Daikodan? And if it can, would it still contain enough power to take down the Gyuki amped Kisame after a portion of its force was cancelled by the collision with Kisame's strongest attack? 


MHA massive fan said:


> Not sure why you mention it . Though you make my point kisame was damaged by a Kunai as well.


That wasn't a Gyuki amped Kisame, and kunais cover a smaller surface area.


MHA massive fan said:


> Gai by shoten kisame punch .


That was Base Guy, and I've already proven Gates do amp durability.

But since you believe Guy's durability remains unchanged when he opens the Gates and also took the full force of his Hirudora and was damaged. Do you also believe 30% Kisame hits with Hirudora level of power and is capable of launching Madara's V3 Susanoo an island away with his punches?

Because that's your argument right now genius. 


MHA massive fan said:


> If all hirudora does to you when you are in its vicinity is a few broken ribs then perhaps it’s Simply not as strong as you think


Or perhaps that was a combination of the increased durability granted by the 7th Gate and Guy not taking the full force of his Hirudora, which is what the panels shows you.


MHA massive fan said:


> inb4 you now claim it broke V3 susanoo when you just implied in this post you never made such claim


Whether it broke the V3 Susanoo or not doesn't even matter.

What matters is that the tiger contains enough power to budge a V3 Susanoo from the ground upon direct impact ( which means it has to overpower its anchoring strength ) and send it an immense distance away in one panel.

It also took a Kisame who was amped by a large portion of Gyuki's chakra out of comission after travelling a large distance and having portion of its power cancelled by the collision with Daikodan.

Can V2 lariat even budge Madara's ribcage Susanoo?

Can V2 lariat damage the same version of Kisame that was running on the majority of Gyuki's chakra reserve, assuming the lariat first collides with Daikodan before hitting Kisame?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I'll cover that below.
> 
> Or maybe also get hit by the portion of the tiger that was bisected and travelled away.


Travelled away where? Tiger got a mind of its own? The intended target split it in half . The victim gai was right behind it . Both were at the Center of the blast .


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Cracking is synonymous with breaking.


Functionally quite different as she



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> The words you were looking for is busting it open.
> 
> So?
> 
> ...


 travelling where clown? The strongest part of the blast would be at the origin not further away


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Hirudora overcame the full power of Gyuki amped Kisame's Daikodan, then left the same Gyuki amped Kisame flat on his back.


I know this . Surface damage to kisame who can get cut down by a Kunai. Big whoop

I


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Can V2 lariat even overpower Daikodan? And if it can, would it still contain enough power to take down the Gyuki amped Kisame after a portion of its force was cancelled by the collision with Kisame's strongest


no but it can burst kisame chest open which hirudora has no feats of doing



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> attack?
> 
> That wasn't a Gyuki amped Kisame, and kunais cover a smaller surface area.
> 
> ...


  all this nonsense because I asked you how much damage Gai would take from tsunade punch. Something you couldn’t even answer


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## Monarch (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Travelled away where? Tiger got a mind of its own? The intended target split it in half . The victim gai was right behind it . Both were at the Center of the blast .
> 
> Functionally quite different as she
> 
> ...


Sideways, away from Guy, clown.  

Study the panel and follow the directions you see the split parts of the tiger going to, get yourself a microscope if you need to.


MHA massive fan said:


> I know this . Surface damage to kisame who can get cut down by a Kunai. Big whoop


Yes, because the kunai covers a smaller surface area.

That is why an uppercut to your clown make-up coated face will cause more damage than a needle prick.


MHA massive fan said:


> I
> 
> no but it can burst kisame chest open which hirudora has no feats of doing


It burst a weaker Kisame's chest than the one who faced Guy's, and without lariat first having to overpower Gyuki amped Kisame's strongest attack, you buffoon.

What would have happened if Hirudora hit Kisame from point-blank range without losing some its momentum from first overpowering Daikodan?


MHA massive fan said:


> all this nonsense because I asked you how much damage Gai would take from tsunade punch. Something you couldn’t even answer


Already answered you.


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## GrandBenja (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> In the first scan of my last post you can see Hirudora still blocking out the sky from Naruto and co’s perspective, so it was still a lot bigger than the island.


We should keep in mind that an explosion transmits pressure over a longer distance underwater than in the air, because water is nearly incompressible. As a result, Hirudora's explosion looked much more impressive than it would have on land.

In fact, you can see that Daikōdan specifically ate Hirudora, so that Gai's technique would be surrounded by seawater and, as a result, cause a more lethal explosion. Samehada needed this Hirudora to knock Kisame out, as part of her plan to possess Bee. A "normal" Hirudora wouldn't have managed to end the fight; that's why Samehada had Daikōdan empower Hirudora.

Therefore, it isn't entirely accurate to scale Hirudora to the explosion it created near the island.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Sideways, away from Guy, clown.
> 
> Study the panel and follow the directions you see the split parts of the tiger going to, get yourself a microscope if you need to.
> 
> ...


 More Bla bla
Hirudora best feat would only and always be knocking kisame out 
 sorry it doesn’t suit your narrative


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## SSMG (Apr 27, 2022)

GrandBenja said:


> We should keep in mind that an explosion transmits pressure over a longer distance underwater than in the air, because water is nearly incompressible. As a result, Hirudora's explosion looked much more impressive than it would have on land.
> 
> In fact, you can see that Daikōdan specifically ate Hirudora, so that Gai's technique would be surrounded by seawater and, as a result, cause a more lethal explosion. Samehada needed this Hirudora to knock Kisame out, as part of her plan to possess Bee. A "normal" Hirudora wouldn't have managed to end the fight; that's why Samehada had Daikōdan empower Hirudora.
> 
> Therefore, it isn't entirely accurate to scale Hirudora to the explosion it created near the island.


It was identified by the sight of the explosion. That means that the explosion used against Kisame is consistent wihh what its known to dbe able to produce. 



MHA massive fan said:


> Hirudora best feat would only and always be knocking kisame


Which was the only time Kisame ever been knocked out.. So it's a better feat than v2 KBs lariat by far as Kisame took that shit with a smile and laughed.. For guy he was coughing up blood and twitching like a bug.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

SSMG said:


> It was identified by the sight of the explosion. That means that the explosion used against Kisame is consistent wihh what its known to dbe able to produce.
> 
> 
> Which was the only time Kisame ever been knocked out.. So it's a better feat than v2 KBs lariat by far as Kisame took that shit with a smile and laughed.. For guy he was coughing up blood and twitching like a bug.


Sure if surface damage is better than loosing your chest and having your ribs exposed 
Then yup you are 100% right 

keeping in mind kisame had more of killer bée chakra prior to eating V2 lariat than he did against Gai hirudora 

we also know according to the author the 7 swordsmen are at 50% strength without their sword


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## SSMG (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Then yup you are 100% right


Glad you agree.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Apr 27, 2022)

i cant tell if yall are trolling. i just got done reading the madara part of the story, kaguya just showed up (she really does come out of nowhere lmfao)

7 gates guy definitely does better than tsunade. mid diff at best. 8 gates one shots

Reactions: Winner 3 | Optimistic 2


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Katsuyu was restricted because she’s too godly for this fight.


More like Tsunade wouldn’t bother summoning her

After she did squat against Manda and Tsunade had to save Bunta herself she didn’t go to her ever again in combat

Makes sense though since the only kage level she fought to that point was Oro, and she learned quickly how useless her summon was


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> More like Tsunade wouldn’t bother summoning her
> 
> After she did squat against Manda and Tsunade had to save Bunta herself she didn’t go her to ever again in combat



Forgoing the summon against an opponent that can drain the slug's Chakra =/= won't summon her against a Taijutsu-only fighter.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Forgoing the summon against an opponent that can drain the slug's Chakra =/= won't summon her against a Taijutsu-only fighter.


Yes because Preta Path was so obviously the main concern there

Not the 25 Susano, the CST that deleted her village, the CT that gobbled up a mountain range, or the meteors that one shotted Onoki

No, it was the melee Preta path that Tsunade was concerned about as she charged forward alone directly into Madara’s melee range with a chakra nuke battery open on her forehead

Reactions: Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes because Preta Path was so obviously the main concern there



Yes. We know Katsuyu can die from Chakra depletion, unlike physical trauma.


*Spoiler*: __ 











DaVizWiz said:


> No, it was the melee Preta path that Tsunade was concerned about as she charged forward alone directly into Madara’s melee range with a chakra nuke battery open on her forehead



Of course. Tsunade is far more agile than the slug.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes. We know Katsuyu can die from Chakra depletion, unlike physical trauma.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Anyone can die from chakra depletion, chakra is spiritual and physical energy, Kakashi died from depleting his

Susano, CST, CT, and Meteors should have been the primary concern of anyone battling Madara and if not you’re simply an idiot


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Anyone can die from chakra depletion, chakra is spiritual and physical energy, Kakashi died from depleting his



Okay, but is this supposed to undermine the point that Tsunade was aware of the fact that Madara had skills that could kill her slugs? Gai does not.



DaVizWiz said:


> Susano, CST, CT, and Meteors should have been the primary concern of anyone battling Madara and if not you’re simply an idiot



But if the slug is killed it can't protect anybody from those.


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Forgoing the summon against an opponent that can drain the slug's Chakra =/= won't summon her against a Taijutsu-only fighter.


Actually this chakra draining feature on another note could give kisame an advantage against katsuyu 
 
Sounds like a thread needs doing


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Actually this chakra draining feature on another note could give kisame an advantage against katsuyu
> 
> Sounds like a thread needs doing



Yes, it could. Katsuyu can't solo Kisame.

She can help Tsunade escape the water dome tho.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes, it could. Katsuyu can't solo Kisame.


Don’t you mean TO say  kisame simply beats katsuyu ? 


FlamingRain said:


> She can help Tsunade escape the water dome tho.


Hmm I don’t see a slug swimming


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Okay, but is this supposed to undermine the point that Tsunade was aware of the fact that Madara had skills that could kill her slugs? Gai does not.
> 
> 
> 
> But if the slug is killed it can't protect anybody from those.


Madara had skills that could kill anyone that’s the reason you bring in a meatshield summon from jump 

It has the least chance of dying of any of the Gokage

Reactions: Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Don’t you mean TO say  kisame simply beats katsuyu ?



Same difference.



MHA massive fan said:


> Hmm I don’t see a slug swimming



She doesn't have to. She can crawl out after she sinks to the bottom.


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## jesusus (Apr 27, 2022)

I just realized Jiraiya is compassionate, so he never uses his Summons as a generic meatshield, he knows they are living creatures with feelings.

Unlike Tsunade and Orocihmaru

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

jesusus said:


> I just realized Jiraiya is compassionate, so he never uses his Summons as a generic meatshield, he knows they are living creatures with feelings.
> 
> Unlike Tsunade and Orocihmaru


He used a toad when Kisame jumped him with a meter long sword

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Same difference.
> 
> 
> 
> She doesn't have to. She can crawl out after she sinks to the bottom.


No it isn’t 
One sounds like some  

won’t her chakra be drained by the much much faster kisame ?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

jesusus said:


> I just realized Jiraiya is compassionate, so he never uses his Summons as a generic meatshield, he knows they are living creatures with feelings.
> 
> Unlike Tsunade and Orocihmaru



The toads are his friends. The only toads Jiraiya has used to take hits are those with armor or shields.

Tsunade only summons chunks of Katsuyu's body and Katsuyu is willing to shield her.

Orochimaru just doesn't give a darn lol.



MHA massive fan said:


> No it isn’t
> One sounds like some
> 
> won’t her chakra be drained by the much much faster kisame ?



If Katsuyu divides most of the slugs will get away before he can get around to them. The ones he catches can be drained though, sure.


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## Mockingbyrd (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes, it could. Katsuyu can't solo Kisame.


Well acid>Water
Her resistance > kisame's
She would not solo but would push him hard at least.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Madara had skills that could kill anyone that’s the reason you bring in a meatshield summon from jump
> 
> It has the least chance of dying of any of the Gokage



You shouldn't waste Chakra on a shield you know is going to be destroyed anyway. It's not like they can outlast Madara. If Katsuyu blocks one thing Madara would just drain her and do it again when she's out of the way, just like he dropped a second meteor after Gaara and Ohnoki stopped the first one.


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## kayz (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> *Spoiler*: _Vs Kisame_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Calcs at OBD got Hachibi's crater at approx 8 km. I don't think that's a lowball for Afternoon Tiger.

What was the distance between Afternoon tiger and Turtle Island? If it's a far enough distance, perspective could favor Afternoon tiger's size over the Island's.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> You shouldn't waste Chakra on a shield you know is going to be destroyed anyway. It's not like they can outlast Madara. If Katsuyu blocks one thing Madara would just drain her and do it again when she's out of the way, just like he dropped a second meteor after Gaara and Ohnoki stopped the first one.


It wouldn’t cost a yin seal user much chakra to maintain a summon and Tsunade along with the other 4 Kage were already destroying their reserves using Jutsu that had no impact on the outcome of the battle for an extended period and lead to her premature death and we know that wasn’t her mindset since she was dying with nearly 0% chakra and summoned to assist the defeated Gokage when Madara could show up and one shot again

There’s no logic in leaving 5 kage vulnerable to techniques that can slaughter them all in one panel because it can’t be stopped a second time

There’s no reason to fight at all under that premise which contradicts Tsunade’s intention and follow through with fighting, your headcanon psychology isn’t what Tsunade was thinking


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

kayz said:


> Calcs at OBD got Hachibi's crater at approx 8 km. I don't think that's a lowball for Afternoon Tiger.
> 
> What was the distance between Afternoon tiger and Turtle Island? If it's a far enough distance, perspective could favor Afternoon tiger's size over the Island's.



Doesn't look like it was too far going by the top panel.




I don't think there is a better panel that can be used for a calc.


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## Speedyamell (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Doesn't look like it was too far going by the top panel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Using the top panel, hirudora would be smaller than presumed since the distance between gai and kisame is not great and kisame seems to be right next to the island


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## Serene Grace (Apr 27, 2022)

Tsunade outlasts


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 27, 2022)

To be completely honest all Tsunade has to do is trade which she is more than likely to pull off. Gai is at a disadvantage even without her summoning The Great Katsuyu Sama. The gates are a double edged sword so the longer the fight goes on the more he weakens on the opposite side Tsunade pretty much maintains optimal performance as long as she has the chakra to do so and we definitely know Gai isn't outlasting her.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Gai fired it toward the island. He aimed it at Kisame, who was floating between Gai and the island.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


I know, the point is the spikes being used as comparison are not enough to assume it dwarfed the entire island turtle as something so huge when these spikes are some not even taller than trees. Using that as comparison to the other Hirudora is inexact in my opinion, the other looked bigger than mountains if we compare it with far the mountains.

Same for the panel with Naruto, they were heading right towards the point Hirudora was shot and were not even affected. The same panel showed it barely moved them.

So we're comparing a Hirudora that on panel looked taller than trees, it's dimensions look TOO tall, but not wide enough to reach Naruto with another Hirudora that the only thing we can use as comparison are far away mountains.


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## jesusus (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> He used a toad when Kisame jumped him with a meter long sword


The Fisher Price Toad has a plastic shield, he knew the toad would live


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## jesusus (Apr 27, 2022)

Hirudora reached the clouds and Yamato told everyone to brace themselves, (he never did this vs Base BoS Sasuke)

Kishi drew that panel to show Hirudora's sheer scale.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Kage 2


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## Captain Quincy (Apr 27, 2022)

Guy with lower end of high diff.

Tsunade's 100 Healings is powered by her chakra, if she has to continually regen from serious injuries then it's going to drain her and eventually the transformation. 7G Morning Peacock is gonna be terrible for her.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> He was already beat up against madara
> Meaning that one would be the weakest and smallest
> And he was most fresh against kisame making it the largest and strongest version
> 
> ...



Well, if a Jutsu breaks Susano'o, it should break the bones of someone less durable. I don't know the point about Hirudora turning people to dust, my point of comparison is the angle it is. The island is seen from behind. Not only the part we see visible is seem far away (it is an island), but Hirudora is covering anything behind by the angle it is drawn.

And while we see covering Naruto's vision, they were running to it. But I understand the point of the biggest one considering the health status of Gai.

Regardless of biggest or not, grabbing people and slamming them against the floor should constitute to a great portion of the damage, crashing damage is something Shinra Tensei works with (part of it), and something slamming you with so much force that it is capable of pushing back Juubi Jins without even detonating should be quite damaging just by physics alone.


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## dergeist (Apr 27, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> How so?
> He tanked Fuuton Atsugai to the face with no damage
> Tsunade was getting fucked over by chakra scalpel from a jonin



This is WA Tsunade and Scalpel cuts internally. She tanked a point blank range Susano'o Magatma. Guy's leg will bounce of the rack and shatter into 106 parts

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Apr 27, 2022)

Does anyone know how Long Gai can Sustain the 7th Gate?


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## Shazam (Apr 27, 2022)

IzanagiSageKunai said:


> Does anyone know how Long Gai can Sustain the 7th Gate?



Considering he chooses to use 6th Gate instead against the Jin’s, while still being hit in that short battle (also not dealing final blows to his opponents which means he should have required 7th Gate), tells us he can’t use it for long, or else why not use it at times like described? It’s obviously hard on his body, and Gates are meant to try to finish your opponent quickly. If you face someone with a lot of sustain like Tsunade or Orochimaru, you’re shit out of luck

Reactions: Agree 1 | Kage 1


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## MHA massive fan (Apr 27, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Well, if a Jutsu breaks Susano'o, it should break the bones of someone less durable


But we have no idea if it broke susanoo. Also going to my Backpack A4 , he actually broke susanoo and sent it flying . Yet the same back pack combo only sent Muu flying . He wasn’t turned to pink mist or bursted through.


LostSelf said:


> . I don't know the point about Hirudora turning people to dust, my point of comparison is the angle it is. The island is seen from behind. Not only the part we see visible is seem far away (it is an island), but Hirudora is covering anything behind by the angle it is drawn.


Sure it’s a massive AoE blast


LostSelf said:


> And while we see covering Naruto's vision, they were running to it. But I understand the point of the biggest one considering the health status of Gai.
> 
> Regardless of biggest or not, grabbing people and slamming them against the floor should constitute to a great portion of the damage, crashing damage is something Shinra Tensei works with (part of it), and something slamming you with so much force that it is capable of pushing back Juubi Jins without even detonating should be quite damaging just by physics alone.


My feeling on hirudora based off what it did to kisame and Gai is basically it breaks bones and will cause internal damage due to that .
so for example someone like killer bee can tank such moves , while someone like asuma would die from it . His body will be intact but he will be dead and bones all broken.

lastly V2 lariat > hirudora in my mind. I know you didn’t mention this point, just giving you a reference for the power of the jutsu in my eyes


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## Mithos (Apr 27, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> 7G Morning Peacock is gonna be terrible for her.


We saw her bat away Madara’s more impressive fire balls, and regenerate the damage she received. We also saw Morning Peacock hit a human target — Fake Kisame — and it didn’t severely burn or mangle the body. Any concussive force or burns she sustains will be healed, quite easily.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Symmetry (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> He used a toad when Kisame jumped him with a meter long sword


Yea

Because he knew Kisame’s strength was fodder compared to Gama’s so it was fine 

As per canon


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> It wouldn’t cost a yin seal user much chakra to maintain a summon and Tsunade along with the other 4 Kage were already destroying their reserves using Jutsu that had no impact on the outcome of the battle for an extended period and lead to her premature death and we know that wasn’t her mindset since she was dying with nearly 0% chakra and summoned to assist the defeated Gokage when Madara could show up and one shot again
> 
> There’s no logic in leaving 5 kage vulnerable to techniques that can slaughter them all in one panel because it can’t be stopped a second time
> 
> There’s no reason to fight at all under that premise which contradicts Tsunade’s intention and follow through with fighting, your headcanon psychology isn’t what Tsunade was thinking



Nothing I've said contradicts Tsunade's intentions. Those Kage (besides Ay) were riding on _Tsunade's_ reserves until she went on the offensive herself, and at that point, Tsunade's thought was that they should be going all out instead of trying to preserve their strength. She said this much to Raikage while they were battling the clone army.

Sitting inside a meatshield that cannot breach the enemy's defense would not get you anywhere when said enemy has perpetually refilling stamina. Attacking could, provided you come across the right opportunity (which you wouldn't turtled up in a slug), and as such is where that Chakra is better spent.


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## J★J♥ (Apr 27, 2022)

Tsunade blows him away with her massive suitons


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Nothing I've said contradicts Tsunade's intentions. Those Kage (besides Ay) were riding on _Tsunade's_ reserves until she went on the offensive herself, and at that point, Tsunade's thought was that they should be going all out instead of trying to preserve their strength. She said this much to Raikage while they were battling the clone army.
> 
> Sitting inside a meatshield that cannot breach the enemy's defense would not get you anywhere when said enemy has perpetually refilling stamina. Attacking could, provided you come across the right opportunity (which you wouldn't turtled up in a slug), and as such is where that Chakra is better spent.


No they weren’t, Tsunade restored Onoki and Gaara once after they fought and defeated several kages

And going all out includes the use of your summon to prevent unnecessary deaths that could occur at any point, not just charging in, getting wounded and expending hordes of chakra and your own lifeforce to undo it. Mei nearly died, Ei4 nearly died, they all nearly died, Katsuyu may have been helpful in these instances.

You don’t have to sit in it, having Katsuyu on the field at the ready should be a fine way to combat a ST/Meteor/Mokuton/Massive Fire Style user. If not in this instance there is none logical in which Tsunade would use it.

Your entire argument is contingent upon headcanon mind reading. You don’t have any idea what Tsunade’s mindset was and flip flopping your argument between conserving her chakra for what won’t work and going all out for what won’t work, clearly wasn’t working and didn’t work as Tsunade fell to her death before any other kage is a sloppy way of going about proving it.

Bototm line is Tsunade didn’t summon Katsuyu against Rinnegan Immortal Uchiha Madara, the most dangerous versatile instantly deadly ninja to ever walk the earth and using subjective faulty mind reading headcanon to try to explain it away is a star reach for the ages.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## J★J♥ (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> No they weren’t, Tsunade restored Onoki and Gaara once after they fought and defeated several kages
> 
> And going all out includes the use of your summon to prevent unnecessary deaths that could occur at any point, not just charging in, getting wounded and expending hordes of chakra and your own lifeforce to undo it. Mei nearly died, Ei4 nearly died, they all nearly died, Katsuyu may have been helpful in these instances.
> 
> ...


Ohnoki was unable to cast Jintons without Tsunade thats hardly being restored.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 27, 2022)

Didn't Tsunade also boost a Kekei Tota to half of the size of Madara's PS. The cost should have already been ridiculous with it being three chakra affinities together but the size also means that the chakra cost of the jutsu was far beyond astronomical. That tells us a lot about those Byakugo reserves.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Shazam (Apr 27, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> *Spoiler*: _Vs Kisame_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don’t know, chapter 510 image to me is more about the perspective than anything else when showing it’s size. The view point from the drawing has the Island in the distance which would make it smaller visually speaking than the Hirudora impact which seems to be drawn closer to the frame. If I was on a boat, and a giant whale jumped in front of me 50 meters, it would dwarf and island that’s 5 miles in the distance.


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## kayz (Apr 27, 2022)

Is standard ninja gear allowed here?

Gai could Kunai her head off.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

kayz said:


> Is standard ninja gear allowed here?
> 
> Gai could Kunai her head off.


Of course.

Kunai are not unique enough to beat Sannin though, gotta be bijuudama level at least, which is why they’re debating the Hirudora scale now despite the fact that it vaped a hypersonic skyscraper suiton tiers above Tsunade in durability.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Yea
> 
> Because he knew Kisame’s strength was fodder compared to Gama’s so it was fine
> 
> As per canon


He knew nothing about Kisame, he didn’t even know his leaf partner’s Jutsu.


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## Symmetry (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> He knew nothing about Kisame, he didn’t even know his leaf partner’s Jutsu.


He took one look at him and knew Gama was enough 

Toad > shark according to kishi

Gama would’ve solo’d had enough boy not been there


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## Shazam (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Of course.
> 
> Kunai are not unique enough to beat Sannin though, gotta be bijuudama level at least, which is why they’re debating the Hirudora scale now despite the fact that it vaped a hypersonic skyscraper suiton tiers above Tsunade in durability.



Pretty sure the debate of whether Gai can beat a restricted Tsunade is already over for the most part, Tsunade outlasts. The rest is mainly just certain inquiry’s that aren’t specifically of importance to the outcome here. The fact is Tsunade heals, Gai gasses out, it doesn’t get much simpler than that.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

Gotta wonder where Gai’s kunai was when he realized his punches weren’t cutting it against Madara.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Symmetry (Apr 27, 2022)

Tsunade choosing not to summon Katsuyu doesn’t track when Tsunade summoned her against an armless Oro and a Kabuto flat on his ass she didn’t even know could still move

She initiated that as her first move to kill Orochimaru despite having zero reason to think Manda was even a possibility since Orochimaru doesn’t have arms and as far as she knows Kabuto is down for the count AND she doesn’t know if he has the skill for it anyways

Of course Katsuyu is restricted here because she’s instrumental to Tsunade in this matchup and that don’t look good for Gai, but if it wasn’t restricted Katsuyu is a factor

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Apr 27, 2022)

Seems like Sannin aren't winning this going off the replies ITT so far. Interesting, I might've been underrating Gaara a bit (or overrating Sannin?).

Do you guys think having this be fought in a neutral location changes anything here?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> No they weren’t, Tsunade restored Onoki and Gaara once after they fought and defeated several kages


Yes, so the two lasting as long as they did can be attributed to Tsunade as she’s the one who gave them Chakra to fight with.

She also restored Mei, or at least healed her. But she was interrupted and didn’t go back to healing so she was most likely only replenishing her Chakra there.



DaVizWiz said:


> And going all out includes the use of your summon to prevent unnecessary deaths that could occur at any point, not just charging in, getting wounded and expending hordes of chakra and your own lifeforce to undo it. Mei nearly died, Ei4 nearly died, they all nearly died, Katsuyu may have been helpful in these instances.



Katsuyu wouldn’t have been helpful because she could do nothing to Susano’o. It tanked Tsunade’s punch and Mei’s acid, so bodyslams just bring her into Preta’s effective range and the acid would slide right off.



DaVizWiz said:


> You don’t have to sit in it



You really do if you want to have a point. Katsuyu doesn’t move at extreme speeds. If the Kage are out and not on/inside her it would be faster for Tsunade to summon her under/in front of them. Summons appear instantly. Tsunade could just wait until she saw a move they need Katsuyu to block before she ever summoned, and gone the whole fight without seeing such a move. She was not there when Madara dropped the meteors, he never used ST, Mokuton could also absorb the less mobile Katsuyu’s Chakra, and Mei was already in charge of countering Madara’s Katon.

The illogical thing to do summon Katsuyu anyway. It achieves nothing but sacrificing the slug. The Kage only made progress after attacking.



DaVizWiz said:


> Your entire argument is contingent upon headcanon mind reading.



No, Tsunade literally tells us what her intentions are.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Seems like Sannin aren't winning this going off the replies ITT so far. Interesting, I might've been underrating Gaara a bit (or overrating Sannin?).
> 
> Do you guys think having this be fought in a neutral location changes anything here?



Wrong thread?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## t0xeus (Apr 28, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Wrong thread?


Yes

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Captain Quincy (Apr 28, 2022)

Mithos said:


> We saw her bat away Madara’s more impressive fire balls, and regenerate the damage she received. We also saw Morning Peacock hit a human target — Fake Kisame — and it didn’t severely burn or mangle the body. Any concussive force or burns she sustains will be healed, quite easily.


It literally killed fake Kisame, and that was a 6G one.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Hazuki (Apr 28, 2022)

tsunade is not going to get beaten up just because she's under pressure from gai for 50 or 60 seconds

she survived uchiha madara who hated her so much that he cut her in two and let her suffer and die 
and even knowing that, she preferred to take care of the other kage 

she is too smart and experienced to be fooled by gai during those 50 seconds and she is also much more versatile, as a super medical ninja it must be easy for her to understand the functioning of the gates, and the damage that the user suffers as time goes by, before he is not able to move anymore

Reactions: Winner 3


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 28, 2022)

Katsuya gg....ah fuck.

Ok, Gai will kick the shit outta Tsunade, but he can't take her out. Once his cool down hits he's dead.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 28, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes, so the two lasting as long as they did can be attributed to Tsunade as she’s the one who gave them Chakra to fight with.
> 
> She also restored Mei, or at least healed her. But she was interrupted and didn’t go back to healing so she was most likely only replenishing her Chakra there.
> 
> ...


Which is fine, but the other two kage received no boon, and Gaara and Onoki received nothing extra they were simply restored to their normal condition once before engaging

She did not restore or heal Mei

None of them bar Onoki could do anything to the Susano Clones, including Tsunade who fought for an extended period to her death, this isn’t an adequate headcanon

Katsuyu covered an entire village of people in a short of period of time, she can move and shield just fine

The slug won’t be sacrificed just as no Kage with far less durability and vulnerabilities were, the slugs can split into hundreds of multiplications and completely liquefy and have high end smash durability, they have far more survivability than all of the Gokage did and worse case scenario Tsunade simply ends her summoning Jutsu by mental thought to remove Katsuyu from danger at any point or the summon does it herself the same tactic Sasuke used to survive a Bijuudama+ C0 explosion with a far less durable summon who didn’t have the world’s best medic apply a Grade-A regeneration Jutsu to it


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## Mockingbyrd (Apr 28, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Which is fine, but the other two kage received no boon, and Gaara and Onoki received nothing extra they were simply restored to their normal condition once before engaging
> 
> She did not restore or heal Mei


She was healing Mei before Madara used his mokuton kajukai Kirin IIRC. Also Tsunade did heal them of panel, as for some time during fight ,before activating byakugou, Madara had no Idea of her strength and said that if she started battle others would die as she would not be able to heal them anymore. So off panel part she was most likely healing and restoring kages.


DaVizWiz said:


> None of them bar Onoki could do anything to the Susano Clones, including Tsunade who fought for an extended pe


Onoki only slowed them down, while Tsunade actually took one and was only one alongside Onoki who was not beaten or needed to be saved.

Reactions: Like 2


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Which is fine






DaVizWiz said:


> She did not restore or heal Mei



She was shown doing that before she asked Gaara to lift them above Deep Forest Bloom.


*Spoiler*: _Here_ 











DaVizWiz said:


> None of them bar Onoki could do anything to the Susano Clones, including Tsunade who fought for an extended period to her death, this isn’t an adequate headcanon



Every single one of them could at least evade the clones better than Katsuyu could hope to while protecting them. All Katsuyu would have done is slow down any attempts to retaliate.



DaVizWiz said:


> Katsuyu covered an entire village of people in a short of period of time, she can move and shield just fine



The issue isn’t whether or not she can move, the issue is whether or not she can keep up with the Kage as they move in order to intercept whatever attacks Madara might throw their way. It’d be much faster to just summon her in the spot where she’s needed, when she’s needed, and the Kage didn’t face an attack they’d need Katsuyu to block.



DaVizWiz said:


> the slugs can split into hundreds of multiplications



Which only enables her to escape attacks.



DaVizWiz said:


> and completely liquefy



She’s not shielding anyone if she melts into puddles.



DaVizWiz said:


> worse case scenario Tsunade simply ends her summoning Jutsu by mental thought to remove Katsuyu from danger at any point



But if she’s doing that Tsunade may as well have not summoned her. When did Madara use a Jutsu that the Kage couldn’t block or evade but Katsuyu could? Meteors? Tsunade wasn’t there. Mokuton? That would catch Katsuyu. Katon? Mei was already on that.



DaVizWiz said:


> or the summon does it herself the same tactic Sasuke used to survive a Bijuudama+ C0 explosion with a far less durable summon who didn’t have the world’s best medic apply a Grade-A regeneration Jutsu to it



If Katsuyu does that she’ll take everyone back to Shikkotsu Woods. Sasuke only returned so fast because Suigetsu summoned him back. The Kage weren’t trying to run from Madara.

…Except possibly Mei after Madara rescinded the ET summoning contract.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 28, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Gotta wonder where Gai’s kunai was when he realized his punches weren’t cutting it against Madara.



Good question.

I suppose a kunai would mess with the balance needed for Sekizo and Yagai? Idk.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 28, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Pretty sure the debate of whether Gai can beat a restricted Tsunade is already over for the most part, Tsunade outlasts. The rest is mainly just certain inquiry’s that aren’t specifically of importance to the outcome here. The fact is Tsunade heals, Gai gasses out, it doesn’t get much simpler than that.


Debate never ended.

Tsunade’s Healing factor is irrelevant to an attack of that level, it’s no where near the tier necessary to survive an attack of far less than island scale as it got pressured by mini magatama below explosive chakra tags causing serious wounds on her abdomen.

Base A3 has better durability and slapping a poor healing factor that can’t auto negate a mini magatama on wouldn’t save him from a punch that blew apart Daikodan in fractions of a second either.

Tsunade wouldn’t even survive her own weaker CES punch that has a 0% chance of busting a compacted suiton like Daikodan.


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## Shazam (Apr 28, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Debate never ended.
> 
> Tsunade’s Healing factor is irrelevant to an attack of that level, it’s no where near the tier necessary to survive an attack of far less than island scale as it got pressured by mini magatama below explosive chakra tags causing serious wounds on her abdomen.


Her healing factor is relevant in every battle she’s been involved in. That doesn’t stop with Gai, and certainly not due to an attack that doesn’t even knock Kisame out. If Tsunade can survive being bisected, then she’s certainly going to survive and heal from a big air blast. Yes, this debate is over.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 28, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Her healing factor is relevant in every battle she’s been involved in. That doesn’t stop with Gai, and certainly not due to an attack that doesn’t even knock Kisame out. If Tsunade can survive being bisected, then she’s certainly going to survive and heal from a big air blast. Yes, this debate is over.


When thin blades and miniature shurikens are concerned sure.

If Tsunade is behind a colossal compacted hypersonic suiton then she would survive Hirudora too, so would Base A4.

Squishy Kakashi survived Kakuzu’s trump card behind a foot thick water gun suiton. Mei survived a meteor with hers.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 28, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> He took one look at him and knew Gama was enough
> 
> Toad > shark according to kishi
> 
> Gama would’ve solo’d had enough boy not been there


Jiraiya was looking in Itachi’s eyes not at Kisame  

Itachi letting Sannin off left and right 

“Take your hand and get out of here you dirty snake you” (DB5 German translation) 

“We would kill each other *probably *(Itachi referring to the obvious outcome that he would kill Jiraiya and that would be it)” 

Jiraiya needing that mini toad to pull off them P1 Asuma feats in this bitch Man is fucking dumpster trash without toads 

Imagine Itachi with Toad Contract  Wait they’d just get in his way…like Naruto and Minato who only used them as obese battering rams, nevermind


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## jesusus (Apr 28, 2022)

AoE is just smoke and mirrors, any attack with AoE is clownfish level at best

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mithos (Apr 28, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> It literally killed fake Kisame, and that was a 6G one.


So? Tsunade has taken many attacks that would have killed Kisame. Morning Peacock did not inflict damage to (Fake) Kisame’s body that Tsunade could not heal; and the same is true for Afternoon Tiger. Also, there is nothing implying Morning Peacock becomes dramatically more powerful in the 7th Gate. 

Morning Peacock would inflict some minor burns and _maybe_ break some bones and rupture some organs — at absolute worst. Those types of wounds can’t kill Tsunade.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Captain Quincy (Apr 28, 2022)

Mithos said:


> So? Tsunade has taken many attacks that would have killed Kisame.





Mithos said:


> Morning Peacock would inflict some minor burns and _maybe_ break some bones and rupture some organs — at absolute worst. Those types of wounds can’t kill Tsunade.


The point was serious injuries will drain her and her 100 Healings faster, which is major. Not that he'd insta kill her.



Mithos said:


> Morning Peacock did not inflict damage to (Fake) Kisame’s body that Tsunade could not heal


Death is the ultimate injury.



Mithos said:


> Also, there is nothing implying Morning Peacock becomes dramatically more powerful in the 7th Gate.


Everything becomes dramatically more powerful in 7G. I don't see why Morning Peacock, which is punching, wouldn't.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mithos (Apr 28, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> The point was serious injuries will drain her and her 100 Healings faster, which is major. Not that he'd insta kill her.


Gai can’t win a battle of attrition with the upper Gates. We saw how fast he exhausted himself against Kisame, whereas Tsunade can recover from grievous injuries many times. 


Captain Quincy said:


> Death is the ultimate injury.


Death is caused by injury. In order to win, Gai would need to keep hitting her with attacks that inflict extreme injury again and again, as we’ve seen her shrug off the Sword of Kusanagi, Susano’o Swords, burns from Madara’s Fire Style, and Yasaka Magatama. Hell, she even shrugged off travel through a teleportation said to be impossible for anyone but the 3rd Raikage to survive because it would tear the person “to shreds.” We’ve seen the damage Gai’s attacks inflict — it’s nowhere near what Tsunade has already regenerated from on panel. 


Captain Quincy said:


> Everything becomes dramatically more powerful in 7G. I don't see why Morning Peacock, which is punching, wouldn't.


The increase between the 6th and 7th Gate doesn’t seem that extreme. The main difference is that it unlocks Afternoon Tiger. Both Morning Peacock and Afternoon Tiger are air-based attacks caused by the friction of punches thrown at inhuman speed. Afternoon Tiger is stronger, and based on what we’ve seen against Kisame, it can’t kill Tsunade or even tax her regeneration that badly. Morning Peacock is even less successful. 

Creation Rebirth makes Tsunade a nightmare match-up for Gai, who needs to finish a fight in 1-2 bursts of high-speed attacks that tax him very highly. If those attacks fail to eliminate the target, he’s in a very vulnerable position. Unfortunately for Gai, he can’t take Tsunade out with such few attacks.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Subtle (Apr 28, 2022)

Tsunade's feat isn't her durability but her healing ability, Guy's combat speed is much greater where he can move swiftly, landing his strikes while avoiding Tsunade. Direct hits from Guy doesn't guarantee her survival as his stats are much higher in 7G.

Guy Wins,

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2022)

Subtle said:


> Tsunade's feat isn't her durability but her healing ability



It's both.

Durability, resiliency, and regeneration are all factors that make Tsunade so hard to kill.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Subtle (Apr 28, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> It's both.
> 
> Durability, resiliency, and regeneration are all factors that make Tsunade so hard to kill.


It's more her healing/regeneration, being able to teleport with A4 and her battle with Madara.


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## ShWanks (Apr 28, 2022)

Doesn't Gai massively blitz? She can survive getting sliced in half so I doubt Gai can put her down since he doesn't have the ability to oneshot her or punch her head off.

Tsunade High diff


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2022)

Subtle said:


> It's more her healing/regeneration, being able to teleport with A4 and her battle with Madara.



It depends on what she's faced with. Being accelerated with Ay and blown back with Magatama would be owed mostly to her durability, surviving hate blade thrusts and bifurcation by tree would be owed mostly to her healing/regeneration.

Regeneration doesn't bring her back from death, it only ensures that she never crosses that line to begin with. She only has an opportunity to heal/regenerate _if_ her durability and/or resilience enable her initial survival of whatever happened to her.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 28, 2022)

Gai is way faster but it still shouldn't translate into a direct blitz. Tsunade has created an entire fighting style based on memorization, predicting, and dodging. Her coordinating with Backpack Ay and landing a hit before Madara could even turn his head puts her at least above average when Byakugo is considered. Which to be fair you don't have to be faster than your opponent to defend against them. He should definitely be able to tag her a couple of times though. It's extremely doubtful that it would be enough though.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sage King (Apr 29, 2022)

This fight is determined if Gai's hirudora really destroyed Madara's Susanoo. If it did, then Tsunade gets pulverized by the attack.She dies
If Hirudora didn't destroy the Susanoo, then Tsunade outlast.


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## Speedyamell (Apr 29, 2022)

Gai has shown nothing that suggests he's massively faster than Tsunade not to talk of to the point of blitzing her. Reacting to a Path of pain's full on charge while extremely fatigued, when those paths have been shown to be capable of dodging frs, massively outpacing the other kage in response to madara's katon, being the only kage compared to the raikage in speed, as well as perceiving, reacting to and being asked to join the clash between A4 and kcm naruto, means gai has 0 chances of blitzing Tsunade. And those are actually better direct speed feats & hype than anything gai has


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## Captain Quincy (Apr 29, 2022)

Mithos said:


> Gai can’t win a battle of attrition with the upper Gates. We saw how fast he exhausted himself against Kisame, whereas Tsunade can recover from grievous injuries many times.


Which is exactly why I'm not suggesting he'd do a battle of attrition, but instead a DPS rush.



Mithos said:


> Death is caused by injury.


Death is an injury from what I know. But regardless, you can't be more significantly damaged than straight up getting killed. Which is why saying the damage done on fake Kisame isn't much makes no sense.



Mithos said:


> In order to win, Gai would need to keep hitting her with attacks that inflict extreme injury again and again, as we’ve seen her shrug off the Sword of Kusanagi, Susano’o Swords, burns from Madara’s Fire Style, and Yasaka Magatama. Hell, she even shrugged off travel through a teleportation said to be impossible for anyone but the 3rd Raikage to survive because it would tear the person “to shreds.”


She didn't simply shrug them off, they were taxing on her, which is the point. Tsunade isn't invincible.



Mithos said:


> The increase between the 6th and 7th Gate doesn’t seem that extreme.


7G feats are far above 6G feats. It's at the very least a 3 times boost judging off 6G beating 30% Kisame and 7G beating full power Kisame.



Mithos said:


> We’ve seen the damage Gai’s attacks inflict — it’s nowhere near what Tsunade has already regenerated from on panel.





Mithos said:


> The main difference is that it unlocks Afternoon Tiger. Both Morning Peacock and Afternoon Tiger are air-based attacks caused by the friction of punches thrown at inhuman speed. Afternoon Tiger is stronger, and based on what we’ve seen against Kisame, it can’t kill Tsunade or even tax her regeneration that badly. Morning Peacock is even less successful.


There's no proof Tsunade could take attacks on that scale without her 100 Healings being taxed.



Mithos said:


> Creation Rebirth makes Tsunade a nightmare match-up for Gai, who needs to finish a fight in 1-2 bursts of high-speed attacks that tax him very highly. If those attacks fail to eliminate the target, he’s in a very vulnerable position. Unfortunately for Gai, *he can’t take Tsunade out with such few attacks.*


Morning Phoenix alone is a crazy high spam of attacks.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 29, 2022)

Mithos said:


> The increase between the 6th and 7th Gate doesn’t seem that extreme.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 29, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


>



Guy literally says Asakujaku is "nothing" compared to Hirudora and the latter absolutely dwarfs the former in size every time both are used, but sure, it "doesn't seem that extreme" 

Both are physical attacks that make use of Guy's strength and speed, so it's clear the difference in power represents a difference in strength and speed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 29, 2022)

Also, Guy had to hit Kisame through his own Daikodan (something we have seen ALWAYS weakens an incoming attack), obliterated Daikodan, and wasn't planning to kill him regardless. Using Kisame as an anti-feat is pretty...bruh. 

Not saying Tsunade dies to Hirudora, but "it didn't kill Kisame" is a pretty dumb counterargument.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Nali (Apr 29, 2022)

Like i said SŌTENKYAKU gg, next.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 29, 2022)

Nali said:


> Like i said SŌTENKYAKU gg, next.



What's that? Is that Guy's move from the anime?


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## Nali (Apr 29, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What's that? Is that Guy's move from the anime?


Look at my propic.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 29, 2022)

Nali said:


> Look at my propic.



Not impressed. Guy used Hirudora to BFR and (very likely) puncture Madara's V3 Susano'o.


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## Nali (Apr 29, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not impressed. Guy used Hirudora to BFR and (very likely) puncture Madara's V3 Susano'o.


Very likely


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 29, 2022)

Nali said:


> Very likely



I mean, he could have just nuked it outright too  

Puncturing it is just the minimum he did.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SSMG (Apr 29, 2022)

Guy wouldn't need Hirudora tbh. 

His basic punches and kicks would be enough to make her over exert herself

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 29, 2022)

Nali said:


> Look at my propic.


A weaker version of this.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SSMG (Apr 29, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, he could have just nuked it outright too


This is what happened tho.. Madara was out for like 2 entire chapters after the Hirudora cuz he was regening from being nuked.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nali (Apr 29, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> A weaker version of this.


Yes but We don't know if Seven gate gai Is stronger than tsunade, probably not.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 29, 2022)

Nali said:


> Yes but We don't know if Seven gate gai Is stronger than tsunade, probably not.


That's gate 6.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 29, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> That's gate 6.


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## Nali (Apr 29, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> That's gate 6.


Doesnt matter he still weaker than her even with all the gates open

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## jesusus (Apr 29, 2022)

Whose dupe is Nali?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 29, 2022)

jesusus said:


> Whose dupe is Nali?


Sannin band means part of the hive. They are basically the same.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 29, 2022)

Nali said:


> Doesnt matter he still weaker than her even with all the gates open



Wait, what?  

You might want to rethink what you said.


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## Subtle (Apr 29, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> It depends on what she's faced with. Being accelerated with Ay and blown back with Magatama would be owed mostly to her durability, surviving hate blade thrusts and bifurcation by tree would be owed mostly to her healing/regeneration.
> 
> Regeneration doesn't bring her back from death, it only ensures that she never crosses that line to begin with. She only has an opportunity to heal/regenerate _if_ her durability and/or resilience enable her initial survival of whatever happened to her.


Being able to regenerate/heal can also act as durability to a degree. Tsunade's case seems similar rather than being durable her regeneration is at a rate where she takes less damage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nali (Apr 29, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> You might want to rethink what you said.


Wut?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 29, 2022)

Subtle said:


> Being able to regenerate/heal can also act as durability to a degree. Tsunade's case seems similar rather than being durable her regeneration is at a rate where she takes less damage.



True. It could even do that _here_ if Gai doesn't obliterate her body with any one attack.

Her regeneration takes a few seconds. It doesn't work fast enough to outpace or mitigate the damage that Mabui's transfer ("speed of light") could do. She didn't even turn on Sōzō Saisei until _after_ she arrived on the battlefield mostly intact so that would be a feat primarily of durability. Same with Madara's Magatama; she was only seen regenerating from the initial stab wound once the dust clears. The later stabs pierced all the way through her so surviving those was a feat of resiliency and regeneration.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 29, 2022)

Nali said:


> Wut?



Do you think Tsunade > 8G Guy?


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## Goku (Apr 29, 2022)

Nali said:


> Doesnt matter he still weaker than her even with all the gates open


Um... Are you excluding the 8th Gate?


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## Subtle (Apr 29, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> True. It could even do that _here_ if Gai doesn't obliterate her body with any one attack.
> 
> Her regeneration takes a few seconds. It doesn't work fast enough to outpace or mitigate the damage that Mabui's transfer ("speed of light") could do. She didn't even turn on Sōzō Saisei until _after_ she arrived on the battlefield mostly intact so that would be a feat primarily of durability. Same with Madara's Magatama; she was only seen regenerating from the initial stab wound once the dust clears. The later stabs pierced all the way through her so surviving those was a feat of resiliency and regeneration.


Guy's offensive will be too great, it's scale and potency won't allow Tsunade an opportunity to heal as the attack will continuously destroy her.

Her being intact after being teleported is suggested to be through regeneration, when she was warned about the harm she said "I'll use *this*", she referred to byakugou.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 29, 2022)

Subtle said:


> Guy's offensive will be too great, it's scale and potency won't allow Tsunade an opportunity to heal as the attack will continuously destroy her.
> 
> Her being intact after being teleported is suggested to be through regeneration, when she was warned about the harm she said "I'll use *this*", she referred to byakugou.


She never activated Byakugou in fact when she did use it after being catapulted to the battle field she opted for Soso Sasei whose healing starts when the handseal is made and ends when she releases the seal. Therefore her remaining intact after transportation cannot be suggested to be through regeneration because she was deliberately shown after the fact using the parent jutsu Soso Sasei.


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## jesusus (Apr 29, 2022)

7 pages later and Gai still wins neg diff

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 3


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## Symmetry (Apr 29, 2022)

jesusus said:


> 7 pages later and Katsuyu still wins neg diff


Fixed and agreed

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## Tsukuyomi (Apr 30, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Fixed and agreed


Katsuyu is above everyone though. 
Nothing to be ashamed of.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Impulse (Apr 30, 2022)

Gai gives Tsunade the Team Rocket treatment

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2 | Kage 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2022)

More like he gets the team rocket treatment.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 4 | Disagree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 30, 2022)

Impulse said:


> Gai gives Tsunade the Team Rocket treatment



Agreed

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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

Subtle said:


> Guy's offensive will be too great, it's scale and potency won't allow Tsunade an opportunity to heal as the attack will continuously destroy her.



Based on what? Failing to kill Kisame with his best move? That feat that goes against the notion he busted Madara’s Susano’o? Like, _hard_?



Subtle said:


> Her being intact after being teleported is suggested to be through regeneration, when she was warned about the harm she said "I'll use *this*", she referred to byakugou.



She did, but she didn’t turn it on until after the fact. She used Sōzō Saisei to get rid of the wounds she sustained. It’s a durability feat because those wounds were nowhere near as bad as what Mabui and Shikaku feared she would sustain.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Based on what? Failing to kill Kisame with his best move



This would mean something if Guy _was_ trying to kill Kisame. He was literally there to take Kisame alive to get intel. Not sure why y'all like to downplay or deny that fact, lmao.

You also left out the fact Guy nuked Kisame _through_ his own Daikodan (a Hirudora-sized water missile), and in the Discord chat, you never managed a solid counter-response. The most you managed was "explosions are stronger inside water", which doesn't change the fact part of the shark is also still protecting Kisame.



FlamingRain said:


> ? That feat that goes against the notion he busted Madara’s Susano’o? Like, _hard_?



I mean, one could also pretty feasibly argue WA Guy just got stronger, even if they steelman your argument. He can certainly use Gates a lot better come the WA, and actually seems to improve within the WA itself (going from cucking to BM Naruto to outdoing SM Minato against Juudara).

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## jesusus (Apr 30, 2022)

It can be argued Gai and Kakashi were "cucked" by KCM2 Nardo because they were already exhausted to be fair. The intensive fighting no doubt increased their fighting spirit and chakra quality, later on a near-coma Gai busted v3 Susanoo with Hirudora.

Yes, the tier jumps make sense because before that Gai and Kakashi were being sent on fodder missions by Tsunade for most of P2 because she doesn't want them to embarrass the Sannin name, so they never fought WA level opponents that would increase their fighting strength and experience

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## DaVizWiz (Apr 30, 2022)

Bringing in those light speed feats that Base A4 destroyed her in to substantiate surviving a Daikodan busting punch   

Base A4 walking off Hirudora in this bitch? 

All this to still have AT BFRing for a dub


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Failing to kill Kisame


Why would an attack not intended to kill, kill? 

This is as stupid as saying Jiraiya's Rasengan failed to kill the gambler dude in P1.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> This would mean something if Guy _was_ trying to kill Kisame. He was literally there to take Kisame alive to get intel. Not sure why y'all like to downplay or deny that fact, lmao.
> 
> You also left out the fact Guy nuked Kisame _through_ his own Daikodan (a Hirudora-sized water missile), and in the Discord chat, you never managed a solid counter-response.



Because UF took over and made the point I was going to. There was no longer a need. Daikodan didn’t mitigate Hirudora because _it is not made out of a substance that can_. Water requires far more pressure to compress than air does. Surrounded by air, the atmosphere would absorb some of an explosion’s pressure. Water just moves alongside said pressure instead of absorbing it, meaning greater pressure transmits over a greater distance.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, one could also pretty feasibly argue WA Guy just got stronger, even if they steelman your argument. He can certainly use Gates a lot better come the WA, and actually seems to improve within the WA itself (going from cucking to BM Naruto to outdoing SM Minato against Juudara).


Look at Gai at the moment of both Hirudoras. It is not feasible that a side character got so much stronger over a couple days that they go from failing to kill Kisame while in great condition to busting Susano’o while almost literally dead tired.

If he got some absolutely massive additional power up then maybe, but he was using the same power up…

Reactions: Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Why would an attack not intended to kill, kill?
> 
> This is as stupid as saying Jiraiya's Rasengan failed to kill the gambler dude in P1.



It’s not. Only Aoba said that for starters, and “capture him alive” has been requested for several Akatsuki members before they went at them with killing intent anyway. Someone can be strong enough to force you to fight like you mean to kill in order to capture them. Suigetsu says this about Bee iirc.

Asakujaku is already considered a kill move. Gai said he was about to blow Asakujaku right out of the water. Explain to me how the hell you blow a killing move out of the water with a technique held back so that it won’t kill…

Reactions: Like 1 | Kage 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Because UF took over and made the point I was going to. There was no longer a need



Then UF fell apart and started whining after I debunked his arguments. 

Never rely on others to debate for you. You'd be more competent anyway.



FlamingRain said:


> Daikodan didn’t mitigate Hirudora because _it is not made out of a substance that can _



I'm sorry, what?  

Daikodan is literally a giant Suiton nuke in a manga where _much weaker_ Suitons expel enough force to trap ninja, deflect weapons, and so on. Even Suikodan, a _vastly weaker_ form of Daikodan, was able to pull Base Guy away and restrain him. 

Suffice to say, hitting someone _through_ a water missile that vastly dwarfs Suikodan and Suijinheki is far harder than hitting someone _outside_ one.



FlamingRain said:


> Water requires far more pressure to compress than air does. Surrounded by air, the atmosphere would absorb some of an explosion’s pressure. Water just moves alongside said pressure instead of absorbing it, meaning greater pressure transmits over a greater distance



I don't disagree water makes explosions stronger, that's indeed what physics shows. But see what I said above. 



FlamingRain said:


> Look at Gai at the moment of both Hirudoras



Yes, but that's proof _for_ my point, not _against_. He got stronger to the point he can fire off a Hirudora when injured.



FlamingRain said:


> It is not feasible that a side character got so much stronger over a couple days



Argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy. It is feasible in a shonen manga and Guy is technically a major character in the Juubi Revival Arc specifically, and we are told an arc earlier that fighting teaches one more than training. Guy adapted to and got better at using the Gates, not unlike how Naruto adapted to and got better at using SM and KCM. 

Indeed, Naruto also showed *massive* stat gains in both modes, KCM especially.



FlamingRain said:


> that they go from failing to kill Kisame



Whom he _wasn't_ planning to kill anyway, as you again ignored for some reason.



FlamingRain said:


> while in great condition to busting Susano’o while almost literally dead tired



Proof for my point, not against.



FlamingRain said:


> If he got some absolutely massive additional power up then maybe, but he was using the same power up…



Or, maybe he just got a lot better with the same powerup (not unlike how KCM Naruto went from being bruised by RCM1 A4's punch to tanking Tenpenchii which was ravaging mountains and shit)...

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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> It’s not. Only Aoba said that for starters



And you think Guy forgot that or changed his mind...why, exactly? 



FlamingRain said:


> and “capture him alive” has been requested for several Akatsuki members before they went at them with killing intent anyway



Proof? Even if I steelman you there, that doesn't say anything about this case.



FlamingRain said:


> Someone can be strong enough to force you to fight like you mean to kill in order to capture them. Suigetsu says this about Bee iirc



Yes, but Guy never said he was doing this.



FlamingRain said:


> Asakujaku is already considered a kill move. Gai said he was about to blow Asakujaku right out of the water. Explain to me how the hell you blow a killing move out of the water with a technique held back so that it won’t kill…



I mean, Rasengan is literally equal to (or stronger than) Chidori, and Chidori is literally an assassination move famous for punching through strong defenses...what makes it any different from Hirudora in this situation? @Leaf Hurricane is spot on. 

Kisame is much, much, MUCH tougher than some random fodder civilian (IIRC) and his Daikodan offers him massive protection as stated earlier.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 30, 2022)

jesusus said:


> It can be argued Gai and Kakashi were "cucked" by KCM2 Nardo because they were already exhausted to be fair.



Eh, I disagree. They weren't stated or shown to be exhausted, proven by the fact they did battle with Obito and his statue (and eventually even Madara) well into nighttime.

It's also portrayed as a legitimate lack of capability on their part IMO, not an "oh if I was at full power this would be different" situation. Naruto isn't exactly fresh either.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

Failing to grasp the point isn’t debunking it, @Aegon. That’s why UF stopped replying to you. 

Even I only replied to that for any bystander looking at the thread.

If you don’t get it idk what to say other than look it up and hope you understand it then.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Failing to grasp the point isn’t debunking it, @Aegon. That’s why UF stopped replying to you.



I mean, you two (and Lyren) were the ones denying the point, as you are here. 



FlamingRain said:


> Even I only replied to that for any bystander looking at the thread.
> 
> If you don’t get it idk what to say other than look it up and hope you understand it then.



I mean, given how many erroneous assumptions you've made and how much you've ignored in this debate, idk what to say to you other than I hope you accept the manga and context properly

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Subtle (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Based on what? Failing to kill Kisame with his best move? That feat that goes against the notion he busted Madara’s Susano’o? Like, _hard_?
> 
> 
> 
> She did, but she didn’t turn it on until after the fact. She used Sōzō Saisei to get rid of the wounds she sustained. It’s a durability feat because those wounds were nowhere near as bad as what Mabui and Shikaku feared she would sustain.


It seems Gai wanted to incapacitate him rather than outright kill him as intel needed to be extracted.

It's implied it would help while the technique is in process rather than after the teleportation is complete.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

Subtle said:


> It seems Gai wanted to incapacitate him rather than outright kill him as intel needed to be extracted.
> 
> It's implied it would help while the technique is in process rather than after the teleportation is complete.



Literally where are you getting this? The technique cannot help anything if it is not even active.


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## Subtle (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Literally where are you getting this? The technique cannot help anything if it is not even active.


Narrative, she isn't stated to be durable to what you believe.

I don't believe Gai destroyed Susano'o.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

Subtle said:


> Narrative, she isn't stated to be durable to what you believe.





If you think the narrative is telling you she used her regeneration _while it was off_ you’re reading it wrong.


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## t0xeus (Apr 30, 2022)

Did Ei4's secretary even mean that a normal person would die instantly though?  

Tsunade was 'ripped to shreds' and since this is shonen manga for kids it's difficult to say how horrible the wounds actually were, perhaps she would die if she hasn't healed them instantly upon arrival.

I'd expect something from Ei4 like "wow, she managed to survive as well.. that's a surprise" if Tsunade actually tanked more than what was expected.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Subtle (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> If you think the narrative is telling you she used her regeneration _while it was off_ you’re reading it wrong.


Just stating it's implied her regeneration carried her, not her durability.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Did Ei4's secretary even mean that a normal person would die instantly though?
> 
> Tsunade was 'ripped to shreds' and since this is shonen manga for kids it's difficult to say how horrible the wounds actually were, perhaps she would die if she hasn't healed them instantly upon arrival.
> 
> I'd expect something from Ei4 like "wow, she managed to survive as well.. that's a surprise" if Tsunade actually tanked more than what was expected.



Her words were “comes out torn apart and dead.”



And Katsuyu volunteers because she can survive being “split into pieces.”

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 2


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## t0xeus (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Her words were “comes out torn apart and dead.”
> 
> 
> 
> And Katsuyu volunteers because she can survive being “split into pieces.”


I see  

Still, what does this even really tell us? We don't know what level of durability did Ei4's secretary think she has  She might have been thinking of an average ninja lol


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> I see
> 
> Still, what does this even really tell us? We don't know what level of durability did Ei4's secretary think she has  She might have been thinking of an average ninja lol



Most of the time I brought up this point in the past it was to argue against Tsunade having average ninja durability, but they at least would have known they were talking to a Senju, who could already be expected to be at least somewhat more durable than non-Senju on average given they’re Asura’s descendants.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Apr 30, 2022)

This thread should have a poll

Reactions: Agree 1


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## t0xeus (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Most of the time I brought up this point in the past it was to argue against Tsunade having average ninja durability, but they at least would have known they were talking to a Senju, who could already be expected to be at least somewhat more durable than non-Senju on average given they’re Asura’s descendants.


Is Tsunade being Senju even a publicly known fact outside of konoha?


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> And Katsuyu volunteers because she can survive being “split into pieces.”


This is an interesting panel, it begs to question why Katsuyu wasn’t used against Rinnegan Immortal Uchiha Madara when Mei was fighting


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Is Tsunade being Senju even a publicly known fact outside of konoha?



Being Hashirama’s granddaughter likely is.

She’s called “princess” Tsunade, after all.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 30, 2022)

Wasn’t the technique used to transport supplies?

It’s hard to fathom wood, bandages and iron being more durable than Tsunade  

Supplies can tank Hirudora?

Reactions: Funny 4 | Winner 1


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## t0xeus (Apr 30, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Wasn’t the technique used to transport supplies?
> 
> It’s hard to fathom wood, bandages and iron being more durable than Tsunade
> 
> Supplies can tank Hirudora?


@jesusus

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Nali (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Her words were “comes out torn apart and dead.”
> 
> 
> 
> And Katsuyu volunteers because she can survive being “split into pieces.”


Yep tsunade herself actually has the ability to split her body cells. I believe kishimoto intended to base tsunade's regeneration jutsu on katsuyu ability. They basically both unkillable for this reason.


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## SSMG (Apr 30, 2022)

Guy would survive the transmission jutsu himself with ease. 

Gates also rips apart the body and Guy can handle all 8 gates and not die instantly. The transmission jutsu would tickle in comparison.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## SSMG (Apr 30, 2022)

I mean shit Guy has a feat of tanking a tsb from madara to save kakashi. Hits him square in the back and he laughs it off and smiles.

Tsunade has 0 durability feats on this level.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Apr 30, 2022)

why tf are yall trying to hype up the transmission feat


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> It’s not. Only Aoba said that for starters, and “capture him alive” has been requested for several Akatsuki members before they went at them with killing intent anyway. Someone can be strong enough to force you to fight like you mean to kill in order to capture them. Suigetsu says this about Bee iirc.
> 
> Asakujaku is already considered a kill move. Gai said he was about to blow Asakujaku right out of the water. Explain to me how the hell you blow a killing move out of the water with a technique held back so that it won’t kill…


Doesn't mean Ohko move can't be toned down per situation. And Kisame Vs Gai proved it. Amaterasu is a one hit KO move and has been used to tire out Sasuke. 
Kisame was supposed to be brought back alive and that's what Gai's plan was. 
He even tells his priority is the escaping sharks and not Kisame. The sharks are the main reason he used Hirudora. 
If Gai wanted to Kill Kisame, he would have after the Hirudora.


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## Paradise (Apr 30, 2022)

Although Gai with 7G has incredible power. 

Tsunade has already survived Yasaka Magatama, Super ST, Tenso no Jutsu, and split in two. 

Gai is more powerful, but Tsunade with Byakugou and Katsuyu has enough defense and resilience to withstand Gai's attacks until he runs out.

 I give the victory to Tsunade, due to the Resilience factor.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Doesn't mean Ohko move can't be toned down per situation.



That’s not the point. The point is that if your tone it down to the point it doesn’t kill it’s no longer blowing a kill move out of the water. Gai said it did, so…



Leaf Hurricane said:


> And Kisame Vs Gai proved it.



No it didn’t.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> He even tells his priority is the escaping sharks and not Kisame.



That doesn’t preclude firing a full power Hirudora at Kisame.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> If Gai wanted to Kill Kisame, he would have after the Hirudora.



Refraining from delivering the would-be final blow =/= holding back the one before.

“Oh hey he survived. Guess I’ll be able to take him back after all.”


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 30, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> “Oh hey he survived. Guess I’ll be able to take him back after all.”


This would have been true if It wasn't stated in the manga that Kisame be captured instead of killed. 
Gai didn't let Kisame live because he happened to survive, but because he was supposed to survive. 




FlamingRain said:


> That doesn’t preclude firing a full power Hirudora at Kisame.


No shit man...
Not like the majority of the sharks were still traveling from Kisame. 
No wonder he fired where they were concentrated. 





FlamingRain said:


> That’s not the point. The point is that if your tone it down to the point it doesn’t kill it’s no longer blowing a kill move out of the water. Gai said it did, so…


Lol what ? 
The manga legit says he needed an attack to cover a larger area, not something to kill Kisame with. 
And the sharks were still in front of Gai so I don't know where you expect to fire it. 
 Gai said the next move is even stronger and no opponent saw it twice. Like Kisame. Which means that move can be used without killing and still justify the " no one seen it twice" statement. 

That >>> any of your speculation.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 1, 2022)

@FlamingRain Also, could you be so kind as to show me where people talked about taking Akatsuki members alive but then killed them? IIRC, capturing Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, or Pain was never considered an option or answer. The idea always was to kill them. Only Itachi (during the Hunt for Uchiha arc) and Kisame (during the Island Turtle arc) IIRC were ever meant to be captured, and no one DID try to kill either.


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## FlamingRain (May 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @FlamingRain Also, could you be so kind as to show me where people talked about taking Akatsuki members alive but then killed them? IIRC, capturing Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, or Pain was never considered an option or answer. The idea always was to kill them. Only Itachi (during the Hunt for Uchiha arc) and Kisame (during the Island Turtle arc) IIRC were ever meant to be captured, and no one DID try to kill either.




*Spoiler*: __


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 1, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Thank you.

Tsunade tells Team Asuma to kill Hidan and Kakuzu if it is *impossible to detain them* (with the added admonition to not let them leave the Land of Fire), and Kakashi states it has simply too risky to take the members they fought *so far* (which excludes Kisame by default) alive and intact.

This does not apply to Guy vs Kisame though. Guy never considered or admitted he had any need to kill Kisame (using a ''certain kill'' technique means little when even assassination jutsu like Chidori can be used non-lethally); in fact, he *succeeded* in detaining him.

So, ultimately, you have no proof Guy tried to kill Kisame. This is even supported by the fact Guy shows *no* surprise at Kisame surviving a certain-kill attack. Ergo, it all happened according to plan, and the plan was Guy taking him alive.

You also left out the context of Guy needing 7G *for the sharks*, not Kisame himself. He makes it explicit that his priority was the sharks, and even Kisame acknowledged this. So he did not even need the certain-kill jutsu for Kisame himself.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Shazam (May 1, 2022)

Lmao Gai lasting in gates long enough to somehow overcome Byakugou healing, like based on what?  

This thread is a prime example of the lengths Gai fans are going to go in order to headcanon their way to a debate victory.

Gai’s best attack doesn’t have the showings to justify this claim. His stamina in 7th Gate also doesn’t justify the duration required to even remotely make this a discussion.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## J★J♥ (May 1, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Being Hashirama’s granddaughter likely is.
> 
> She’s called “princess” Tsunade, after all.


She's called 'princess" because she was with King BDD not because of Hashirama.


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## MHA massive fan (May 1, 2022)

Waiting for someone to say it with their chest 
What level of damage does hirudora do to Tsunade 
1. Vaporises her ?
2. Blasts a hole in her 
Please do say cuz unless it’s option 1 Gai would still loose


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## J★J♥ (May 1, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Waiting for someone to say it with their chest
> What level of damage does hirudora do to Tsunade
> 1. Vaporises her ?
> 2. Blasts a hole in her
> Please do say cuz unless it’s option 1 Gai would still loose


Direct hit of the fist will probably turn her into plasma

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (May 1, 2022)

J★J♥ said:


> Direct hit of the fist will probably turn her into plasma


This is hilariously baseless


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## J★J♥ (May 1, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> This is hilariously baseless


I must have imagined it overpowering S rank water technique boosted with Bijuu level chakra and ocean and KOing endurance beast Kisame with a shockwave.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (May 1, 2022)

J★J♥ said:


> I must have imagined it overpowering S rank water technique boosted with Bijuu level chakra and ocean and KOing endurance beast Kisame with a shockwave.


Daikodan is S rank? In kishi manga ?
Not sure how any of that babble says Tsunade gets vapourised by it 
 
gai , kisame and Madara didn’t . Waiting for the scans of it vaporising anyone


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## MHA massive fan (May 1, 2022)

J★J♥ said:


> I said direct hit of the fist. Can you not read ?


Still baseless 
As no idea how much stronger a direct hit would be


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## xmysticgohanx (May 1, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Waiting for someone to say it with their chest
> What level of damage does hirudora do to Tsunade
> 1. Vaporises her ?
> 2. Blasts a hole in her
> Please do say cuz unless it’s option 1 Gai would still loose


She is not surviving cqc against guy. He blitzes and puts her down very quickly

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (May 1, 2022)

How did a fight between two punchers with 3 moves get to 8 pages

This only happens in Tsunade threads,  it’s amazing how far a mass of people will go to defend a half assed Wolverine.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Funny 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 1, 2022)

People love to say that Tsunade can survive specific attacks which is fine and all but the fight doesn't end if she manages to survive one attack. Gai isn't going to hit her with a Hirudora, see that she's still alive, and then be like "Oh, I guess I lose then!". He's _significantly _faster than her. She has nothing in her arsenal to counter Gai's onslaught with Katsuyu restricted. She pretty much just has to take whatever he dishes out and hope that she survives. Which I doubt. But I know many people believe that Tsunade can pop out new limbs like Piccolo and not even be phased because of their "interpretation" of statements and DB entries and miraculously ignore the lack of feats to back up those claims. Tsunade could maybe possibly in theory do a lot of things. That's for sure!

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## WorldsStrongest (May 1, 2022)

Fight entirely depends on what you find more likely to happen first

Tsunade activating Byakugo or Gai landing a 6G or better named attack

If Gai cant land Hirudora or MP before Tsunade turns on her regen then he cant win

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Paradise (May 1, 2022)

Tsunade has already survived:

* Yasaka Magatama at close range
* Shou Shinra Tensei
* Katon: Ryūen Hoka no Jutsu
* Impaled by 2 Susanos Swords
* Tenso no Jutsu
* Two-piece match

With Katsuyu she has Defense and Resilience needed to withstand Gai's attacks until he runs out.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 2, 2022)

Paradise said:


> Tsunade has already survived:
> 
> * Yasaka Magatama at close range
> * Shou Shinra Tensei
> ...





t0xeus said:


> Katsuyu restricted


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## Paradise (May 2, 2022)

Still, I bet on Tsunade, I believe that even without the Slug she can stay alive long enough for Gai's time with the gates to end. 

The woman right at the base didn't even die to a CST or being ripped in two pieces.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 2, 2022)

Paradise said:


> Still, I bet on Tsunade, I believe that even without the Slug she can stay alive long enough for Gai's time with the gates to end.
> 
> The woman right at the base didn't even die to a CST or being ripped in two pieces.


But in both of those instances, neither Pain nor Madara were actually interested in finishing Tsunade off. They didn't care about Tsunade at all. That's not the case in a BD fight. Gai isn't going to stop attacking her just because he has better things to be doing.


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## SSMG (May 2, 2022)

Guy used gates multiple times throughout the war and fought for 2 days straight... He started fighting a day before Tsunade ever got on the battlefield... And he gassed out after she was ko'd. 


But yes she is going to outlast him. 

SMH. 

The cope is real. 

Base Guy beats her up let alone 7G.

Reactions: Like 1 | Kage 1


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> People love to say that Tsunade can survive specific attacks which is fine and all but the fight doesn't end if she manages to survive one attack. Gai isn't going to hit her with a Hirudora, see that she's still alive, and then be like "Oh, I guess I lose then!". He's _significantly _faster than her. She has nothing in her arsenal to counter Gai's onslaught with Katsuyu restricted. She pretty much just has to take whatever he dishes out and hope that she survives. Which I doubt. But I know many people believe that Tsunade can pop out new limbs like Piccolo and not even be phased because of their "interpretation" of statements and DB entries and miraculously ignore the lack of feats to back up those claims. Tsunade could maybe possibly in theory do a lot of things. That's for sure!


You speak of misinterpretation, Yet you're arguing gai on his short fuse can kill someone that survived an onslaught from five full body susanoo and then PS.. that's hilarious to say the least.
And then tsunade being able to regrow limbs is literally a stated fact.. You need feats to believe something that's already stated, but then can claim attacks from gai that never killed anyone are going to kill someone with jutsu specifically made to prevent death... I wonder how much lack of self awareness you need to be hypocritical and contradict yourself in the same post?
And since we're on the issue of feats, I would love to know what feats make gai _significantly_ faster than Tsunade.


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But in both of those instances, neither Pain nor Madara were actually interested in finishing Tsunade off. They didn't care about Tsunade at all. That's not the case in a BD fight. Gai isn't going to stop attacking her just because he has better things to be doing.


I would kindly ask you never speak on the reading comprehension of others again lol. Pain wasn't trying to kill Tsunade so I guess the portion of CST that hit her was softened by pain to protect his new found fave Tsunade? LOL
Madara wasn't trying to kill Tsunade even when he explicitly said he did and cut her in half...? So this is the type of reasoning & logic needed to think gai beats Tsunade huh..? now i understand

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nali (May 2, 2022)

Still arguing ? Tsunade tanks and Oneshots. Sotenkyaku gg

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Paradise (May 2, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But in both of those instances, neither Pain nor Madara were actually interested in finishing Tsunade off. They didn't care about Tsunade at all. That's not the case in a BD fight. Gai isn't going to stop attacking her just because he has better things to be doing.


They already answered for me.

Only one thing, using Madara here only makes Tsunade praise.

After all, she is the only Kage that Madara attacks directly, and even swearing to kill her, did not, and was still forced to recant as to his level of power.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (May 2, 2022)

SSMG said:


> Guy used gates multiple times throughout the war and fought for 2 days straight... He started fighting a day before Tsunade ever got on the battlefield... And he gassed out after she was ko'd.
> 
> 
> But yes she is going to outlast him.
> ...


Using Gates multiple (yet, *SEPARATE*) times allows for breaks throughout. We don’t have a single time in all of Gai’s showings that would suggest to us that he can use 7th Gate for a prolonged battle (which this battle is only going last as long as Gai can maintain 7th Gat consecutively without getting those breaks spoken off earlier).

Your logic is like saying that I can sprint at full speed all day just because I’ve been able to take 10-20 minute breaks in between each sprint session, rather than me being able to actually sprint nonstop all day long

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Architect (May 2, 2022)

7G Gai negs
6G Gai low-mid diffs
I bet even 5G might mid-high diff

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## jesusus (May 2, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2022)

Paradise said:


> The woman right at the base didn't even die to a CST or being ripped in two pieces.



Was Tsunade even hit by that though? 

IIRC, she was away from the brunt of the attack (as were the ANBU with her who also survived), she was in the Hokage mountain area which was largely untouched by Pain.


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## SakuraLover16 (May 2, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> People love to say that Tsunade can survive specific attacks which is fine and all but the fight doesn't end if she manages to survive one attack. Gai isn't going to hit her with a Hirudora, see that she's still alive, and then be like "Oh, I guess I lose then!". He's _significantly _faster than her. She has nothing in her arsenal to counter Gai's onslaught with Katsuyu restricted. She pretty much just has to take whatever he dishes out and hope that she survives. Which I doubt. But I know many people believe that Tsunade can pop out new limbs like Piccolo and not even be phased because of their "interpretation" of statements and DB entries and miraculously ignore the lack of feats to back up those claims. Tsunade could maybe possibly in theory do a lot of things. That's for sure!


So Tsunade survives a village leveling attack in base and immediately gets up afterwards with what was sure to be catastrophic injury, survives mabui's jutsu in base after being told the only one ever to survive it was A3, and walks away with no injury from a point blank magatama attack that took a combined defense from Ohnoki and Gaara to be stopped and yet its still a question whether or not she'll be incapacitated long enough with byakugou active for Gai to finish her off?

Gai is fast no one is debating that but Tsunade isn't a snail and isn't moving in slow motion compared to Gai not to mention she has developed skills to read and analyse attack patterns not only that but she only needs to land one punch two at most.

On top of this why are we even debating the limbs thing once again she stated that she could do so point blank going off of your logic of having feats I don't have to believe 99% of the attacks in the series can actually kill anyone. It's crazy that her saying she can regenerate tissues and limbs as an explanation to her technique that we were seeing for the time is so highly contested by Fandom despite there being no contradiction in the manga.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Was Tsunade even hit by that though?
> 
> IIRC, she was away from the brunt of the attack (as were the ANBU with her who also survived), she was in the Hokage mountain area which was largely untouched by Pain.


She was the attack leveled the entire hokage mansion she was standing on.  The anbu don't look like they sustained serious injury so it's extremely likely that they were protected by Katsuyu unlike Tsunade who was hardly able to stand and actually showed injury if I recall correctly.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> She was the attack leveled the entire hokage mansion she was standing on.  The anbu don't look like they sustained serious injury so it's extremely likely that they were protected by Katsuyu unlike Tsunade who was hardly able to stand and actually showed injury if I recall correctly.



If you could be so kind to provide scans, that would be great. This issue has always confused me and I never really looked into it.


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## SakuraLover16 (May 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> If you could be so kind to provide scans, that would be great. This issue has always confused me and I never really looked into it.


Let me see it's difficult to find scans nowadays.


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## SakuraLover16 (May 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> If you could be so kind to provide scans, that would be great. This issue has always confused me and I never really looked into it.









The first one he leaves them standing on the mansion.


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## SakuraLover16 (May 2, 2022)

Oh it needs mod approval...


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## Paradise (May 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Was Tsunade even hit by that though?
> 
> IIRC, she was away from the brunt of the attack (as were the ANBU with her who also survived), she was in the Hokage mountain area which was largely untouched by Pain.


Unfortunately I still don't know how to post a picture. 

Tsunade took the damage, that's why she's bleeding, and without any Katsuyu. The two ambus that appear are not together with her inside the rubble, but outside, one is even fallen and with a Katsuyu on top. 

The other was certainly out too and came to take Tsunade out of the rubble. Even the corpses were protected from the CST, the Ambu having received the CST and left intact, while the other is on the ground with a Kastuyu on top, is completely unfeasible.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2022)

Paradise said:


> Unfortunately I still don't know how to post a picture.
> 
> Tsunade took the damage, that's why she's bleeding, and without any Katsuyu. The two ambus that appear are not together with her inside the rubble, but outside, one is even fallen and with a Katsuyu on top.
> 
> The other was certainly out too and came to take Tsunade out of the rubble. Even the corpses were protected from the CST, the Ambu having received the CST and left intact, while the other is on the ground with a Kastuyu on top, is completely unfeasible.



If you want to post images, you should post an Imgur scan, as those are the only ones allowed here (IIRC). To add an image, you should be able to add one through pressing the icon of a photo.

It is possible Tsunade got hit by debris dislodged by the blast wave and not the wave itself, or perhaps just part of the wave (not unlike how Yahiko was singled by KN6's Bijuudama in spite of it exploding far away from him).


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## FlamingRain (May 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Tsunade tells Team Asuma to kill Hidan and Kakuzu if it is *impossible to detain them* (with the added admonition to not let them leave the Land of Fire), and Kakashi states it has simply too risky to take the members they fought *so far* (which excludes Kisame by default) alive and intact.



Tsunade's orders went for any of the Akatsuki they encountered, not just Hidan and Kakuzu.


*Spoiler*: _The page before Kakashi's statement_ 









Kakashi says "_judging from_ the ones we've encountered so far, ", not just "the ones we've encountered so far." He's using their previous encounters to predict how dangerous handling the remaining members would most likely be. Kisame would not be excluded.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> This does not apply to Guy vs Kisame though. Guy never considered or admitted he had any need to kill Kisame (using a ''certain kill'' technique means little when even assassination jutsu like Chidori can be used non-lethally); in fact, he *succeeded* in detaining him.



He doesn't have to explicitly admit it. Using a sure-kill move that another sure-kill doesn't even come close to is enough. Chidori can be used non-lethally by avoiding vitals, but Hirudora blasts the entire body. Also, how exactly would Gai even be able to determine what level of power would be required to incapacitate but not kill Kisame?



Aegon Targaryen said:


> This is even supported by the fact Guy shows *no* surprise at Kisame surviving a certain-kill attack.



We don't see the moment Gai discovers that Kisame after Hirudora.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You also left out the context of Guy needing 7G *for the sharks*, not Kisame himself.



Because it doesn't matter. Hirudora didn't hit the sharks and catch Kisame somewhere off to the side, it hit _Kisame _and _then_ enveloped the surrounding sharks.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## xmysticgohanx (May 2, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Let me see it's difficult to find scans nowadays.


colored manga has the colored manga

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (May 2, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Oh it needs mod approval...





Aegon Targaryen said:


> If you want to post images, you should post an Imgur scan, as those are the only ones allowed here (IIRC). To add an image, you should be able to add one through pressing the icon of a photo.



What Aegon said.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade's orders went for any of the Akatsuki they encountered, not just Hidan and Kakuzu



And her orders specifically carried the condition "*if* you cannot capture them".

Guy _did_ succeed in capturing him though.



FlamingRain said:


> *Spoiler*: _The page before Kakashi's statement_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kakashi also specifies "it's _been_ far too risky to take them on contact". He's just describing how difficult it has been, he's not saying the plans changed. He's not saying the idea is to *suddenly kill any Akatsuki member afterwards*, lmao. 



FlamingRain said:


> He doesn't have to explicitly admit it



He does, otherwise it's a positive statement and it's your burden to prove it.



FlamingRain said:


> Using a sure-kill move that another sure-kill doesn't even come close to is enough



Not even remotely.

Both Hebi Sasuke's Chidori and Hebi Sasuke's sword slice can easily kill and the former is far stronger than the latter, yet both can be used non-lethally 

You also left out the fact Guy didn't upgrade from one sure-kill technique to another *because of Kisame's durability*, he did it *because he wanted more AOE to kill all of the sharks*. Your entire premise is unfounded from the beginning.



FlamingRain said:


> Chidori can be used non-lethally by avoiding vitals



And a *punch* (which Hirudora effectively boils down to) can be used non-lethally too...your point? 

What about Rasengan, by the way, as Leaf Hurricane mentioned? Rasengan isn't as precise as Chidori, yet Jiraiya managed to use it non-lethally on a thug just fine.



FlamingRain said:


> but Hirudora blasts the entire body



So? 

Leaving aside the fact Kisame is cushioned by his own technique, Guy can just weaken the blast that actually hits.



FlamingRain said:


> Also, how exactly would Gai even be able to determine what level of power would be required to incapacitate but not kill Kisame?



Hirudora is a punch, and even a nerd knows how to control the power of his punch. Guy is a *Taijutsu master* and has already engaged Kisame in physical combat, it's safe to say he knows what will and won't work on Kisame's body.



FlamingRain said:


> We don't see the moment Gai discovers that Kisame after Hirudora



True, but Guy never shows any surprise at Kisame's survival after the fact.

That's more than good enough.



FlamingRain said:


> Because it doesn't matter. Hirudora didn't hit the sharks and catch Kisame somewhere off to the side, it hit _Kisame _and _then_ enveloped the surrounding sharks.



It does matter if you're trying to prove Kisame is the limit of Hirudora's durability, when Kisame wasn't his primary target (in addition to Guy wanting him alive).


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The first one he leaves them standing on the mansion.



Ah, thank you!


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## MHA massive fan (May 2, 2022)

Aint seen anyone tell me concretely how much damage they think hirudora would do 
We already know MP damage is basically irrelevant here 
So go on say it with your chest people 
She looses Bla bla . How much damage does each hirudora do and how many can Gai fire ?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> So Tsunade survives a village leveling attack in base and immediately gets up afterwards with what was sure to be catastrophic injury


I will say, she survived that well thanks to byakugō.. (as implied by the anbu) she protected others with Katsuyu and used byakugō on herself.. ofcourse doing all that left her exhausted


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## xmysticgohanx (May 2, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Aint seen anyone tell me concretely how much damage they think hirudora would do
> We already know MP damage is basically irrelevant here
> So go on say it with your chest people
> She looses Bla bla . How much damage does each hirudora do and how many can Gai fire ?


It does a ton and some cqc beforehand finishes the match


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## Joker55 (May 2, 2022)

Gai is way stronger but Tsunade wins unfortunately cuz in 7 gates Gai has only 1 technique and Tsunade can tank it with using Byakugou for regenerate his body.


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## FlamingRain (May 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> And her orders specifically carried the condition "*if* you cannot capture them".
> 
> Guy _did_ succeed in capturing him though.



He did, but that does not indicate Gai never went at Kisame with killing intent. Gai can easily just figure it is what it is and throw a killing move at Kisame anyway, then take him in once he realized that Kisame fortunately survived.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kakashi also specifies "it's _been_ far too risky to take them on contact". He's just describing how difficult it has been, he's not saying the plans changed. He's not saying the idea is to *suddenly kill any Akatsuki member afterwards*, lmao.



The point is that if you end up killing an Akatsuki member it's alright. You don't have to capture them alive at all costs.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> He does, otherwise it's a positive statement and it's your burden to prove it.



_"Gai held Hirudora back"_ is a positive statement, so...



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not even remotely.
> 
> Both Hebi Sasuke's Chidori and Hebi Sasuke's sword slice can easily kill and the former is far stronger than the latter, yet both can be used non-lethally


Because, as I said, the user can simply avoid striking a vital when they deliver the blow. Hirudora is much too large to avoid striking a vital. It's blast radius is bigger than an island. If it hits you it hits you everywhere.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You also left out the fact Guy didn't upgrade from one sure-kill technique to another *because of Kisame's durability*, he did it *because he wanted more AOE to kill all of the sharks*. Your entire premise is unfounded from the beginning.



Okay. Killing the remaining sharks only meant he needed to increase the blast radius, not that he intended to spare Kisame.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> What about Rasengan, by the way, as Leaf Hurricane mentioned? Rasengan isn't as precise as Chidori, yet Jiraiya managed to use it non-lethally on a thug just fine.



By using an incomplete version. It's not like he used an Ōdama Rasengan to avoid killing someone a normal Rasengan would kill. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Leaving aside the fact Kisame is cushioned by his own technique



Still no.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Hirudora is a punch, and even a nerd knows how to control the power of his punch. Guy is a *Taijutsu master* and has already engaged Kisame in physical combat, it's safe to say he knows what will and won't work on Kisame's body.



Having one basic kick blocked doesn't inform Gai what the upper limit of Kisame's durability is. If you're talking about their previous encounter then _killing_ shōten Kisame with Asakujaku doesn't tell Gai how much he needs to restrain Hirudora to avoid killing him either. He wouldn't remember anyway, as he didn't even remember _Kisame _lol.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> True, but Guy never shows any surprise at Kisame's survival after the fact.



He doesn't need to show it after the fact. Surprise usually fades in just a brief moment.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> It does matter if you're trying to prove Kisame is the limit of Hirudora's durability, when Kisame wasn't his primary target (in addition to Guy wanting him alive).



It does not matter what his target is, it matters what he hit. And he hit _Kisame_, then the remaining sharks.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (May 2, 2022)

xmysticgohanx said:


> It does a ton and some cqc beforehand finishes the match


A ton is vague common be specific


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## t0xeus (May 2, 2022)

Madara swung his TSB staff at Gai, who using Hirudora managed to come out untagged by the staff, so he redirected or overpowered it, with the leftover force pushing Madara back dozen meters or so.

I find that honestly more impressive than even what you get highballing the V3 Susano’o feat, considering the fact that JJ Madara >> JJ Obito >> Blind Madara > SM Naruto in strength
Also RSM Naruto >>>> KCM Naruto (can severely hurt someone as durable as Kisame with a punch) in strength, yet Madara parried his punch casually with the same staff that was overpowered by Hirudora

So Late WA Gai’s Hirudora should be >>>>> Kisame using the feats it got


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## Mockingbyrd (May 2, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But in both of those instances, neither Pain nor Madara were actually interested in finishing Tsunade off


Pain was not interested in killing certain shinobis of konoha, he just casted jutus that could kill all at once. Point is She survived the attack, that was meant,and actually managed, to destroy whole village, all while protecting others.
Your points about Madara carries no sense within. In which realm, cuttings in half is no killing intent?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Madara swung his TSB staff at Gai


Madara swung his tsb staff at _hirudora_... Which is what caused it to detonate prematurely.


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## t0xeus (May 2, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> Madara swung his tsb staff at _hirudora_... Which is what caused it to detonate prematurely.


Gai was directly behind that Hirudora… meaning if the staff slices through, it touches Gai too


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## FlamingRain (May 2, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Madara swung his TSB staff at Gai, who using Hirudora managed to come out untagged by the staff, so he redirected or overpowered it, with the leftover force pushing Madara back dozen meters or so.
> 
> I find that honestly more impressive than even what you get highballing the V3 Susano’o feat, considering the fact that JJ Madara >> JJ Obito >> Blind Madara > SM Naruto in strength
> Also RSM Naruto >>>> KCM Naruto (can severely hurt someone as durable as Kisame with a punch) in strength, yet Madara parried his punch casually with the same staff that was overpowered by Hirudora
> ...



Madara just swung to stop Hirudora. The end of his rod comes down _in front of_ Gai, not onto him.


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Gai was directly behind that Hirudora… meaning if the staff slices through, it touches Gai too


Not if madara's intention was to detonate hirudora to begin with


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## t0xeus (May 2, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Madara just swung to stop Hirudora. The end of his rod comes down _in front of_ Gai, not onto him.


His staff does not yet even look fully extended yet it's already inch away from Gai's wrist.

Coupled with how Madara is being pushed away a considerable distance away from the Hirudora half-assed explosion, it's clear to me that the staff swing was overpowered by the Tiger pushing through it.



Speedyamell said:


> Not if madara's intention was to detonate hirudora to begin with


I mean that doesn't even make sense. It doesn't matter what his intention is, what matters is that he swung his staff at Gai and had Gai's Hirudora not repelled the swing, he would have lost his arms. Whether Madara was aiming to do that or not didn't stop him from swinging his staff in that way, did it?

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> He did



Good, so there you go  



FlamingRain said:


> but that does not indicate Gai never went at Kisame with killing intent



But you need to prove Guy went at Kisame with killing intent. You made a positive statement. The onus is on you to prove it.

I don't need to prove a negative (Guy *didn't* try to kill Kisame), and even then, offered more evidence for my position.



FlamingRain said:


> Gai can easily just figure it is what it is and throw a killing move at Kisame anyway, then take him in once he realized that Kisame fortunately survived



The problem is, you have no proof of this, and it makes absolutely no sense either. 

If Guy actually decided to kill Kisame in spite of being told to capture him for intel, we should have _some_ evidence he changed his mind. Yet I see none.



FlamingRain said:


> The point is that if you end up killing an Akatsuki member it is what it is



Completely wrong. The point is that if (*and only if*) you cannot capture an Akatsuki member, then kill them. That's a _very specific condition_ you need to meet to kill.



FlamingRain said:


> _"Gai held Hirudora back"_ is a positive statement, so...



You can argue Guy used Hirudora _knowing_ it wouldn't kill Kisame, that's fair. That said, there is still the issue of Daikodan cushioning Kisame and that of even Base Guy's attacks affecting him somewhat.



FlamingRain said:


> Because, as I said, the user can simply avoid striking a vital when they deliver the blow



And as I said, Hirudora is a punch, and a punch can be easily controlled in power. 

The AoE of said punch is irrelevant.



FlamingRain said:


> Okay. Killing the remaining sharks only meant he needed to increase the blast radius, not that he must weaken his technique in order to spare Kisame



Fair, but see a few paragraphs above.



FlamingRain said:


> By using an incomplete version



And Guy didn't have his Hirudora tiger bite into Kisame and fling him away before detonating like he did with Madara either.





FlamingRain said:


> Still no.



Still yes. That's how jutsu work in this manga, jutsu repeatedly weaken each other in clashes all the time.

It also explains why Kisame only got KOed by Hirudora in spite of it being >>>>> Base Guy's attacks which were *already enough* to affect Kisame somewhat. 







Kisame is actually downed for a while and grunts in pain or discomfort after the kick.

Unless you want to argue 7G Guy is just barely above Base Guy, I guess  



FlamingRain said:


> Having one basic kick blocked doesn't inform Gai what the upper limit of Kisame's durability is



Actually, he delivered one solid kick Kisame failed to block at all (and *one that actually kept him down for a while*) before that...and on top of that, he went after Kisame twice in the past.

So, yes, he actually does.



FlamingRain said:


> you're talking about their previous encounter then _killing_ shōten Kisame with Asakujaku doesn't tell Gai how much he needs to restrain Hirudora to avoid killing him either. He wouldn't remember anyway, as he didn't even remember _Kisame _lol



That's for humor, lol. Guy's memory didn't ever fail him in actual combat though. 

And even if I steelman you, Guy gave more than one kick to Kisame, and his earlier attack on the Island Turtle actually fazed the dude a fair bit.



FlamingRain said:


> He doesn't need to show it after the fact. Surprise usually fades in just a brief moment



He does if you want to prove he wanted Kisame dead. So far, you have no proof.



FlamingRain said:


> It does not matter what his target is, it matters what he hit. And he hit _Kisame_, not the remaining sharks.



No, both.


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## SakuraLover16 (May 2, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> I will say, she survived that well thanks to byakugō.. (as implied by the anbu) she protected others with Katsuyu and used byakugō on herself.. ofcourse doing all that left her exhausted


I thought it was more implied that she used it on everyone else considering she herself was still injured.


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> His staff does not yet even look fully extended yet it's already inch away from Gai's wrist.
> 
> Coupled with how Madara is being pushed away a considerable distance away from the Hirudora half-assed explosion, it's clear to me that the staff swing was overpowered by the Tiger pushing through it.
> 
> ...


It makes perfect sense and that's what happened. Madara caught wind gai was about to use Hirudora and he swung at the tiger causing it to explode. There's no feat there for gai against the swing when the swing had already been done and served it's purpose.


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I thought it was more implied that she used it on everyone else considering she herself was still injured.


Iirc he pointed out she saved everyone _and_ used creation rebirth as individual points. Her still being Injured could be the result of not having enough chakra to fully recover after sending most of it to Katsuyu

Reactions: Informative 1


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## t0xeus (May 2, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> It makes perfect sense and that's what happened. Madara caught wind gai was about to use Hirudora and he swung at the tiger causing it to explode. There's no feat there for gai against the swing when the swing had already been done and served it's purpose.


The swing is in motion when it's just an inch away from Gai's hands, so you're not right on that front.


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> The swing is in motion when it's just an inch away from Gai's hands, so you're not right on that front.


No it wasn't. The motion lines there simply indicate the motion it had undergone
And yes madara skidded back a few meters from the explosion.. not denying that


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## t0xeus (May 2, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> No it wasn't. The motion lines there simply indicate the motion it had undergone


That's not how motion lines work. They always show that things ARE in motion, not that they WERE in motion.


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> That's not how motion lines work. They always show that things ARE in motion, not that they WERE in motion.


We don't see it in motion, we simply see where it had gotten. The lines behind it simply show the path it took there... this is standard manga/comic stuff


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## t0xeus (May 2, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> We don't see it in motion, we simply see where it had gotten. The lines behind it simply show the path it took there... this is standard manga/comic stuff


If this is your only proof that Madara's staff stopped there then that's pretty flimsy evidence

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Speedyamell (May 2, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> If this is your only proof that Madara's staff stopped there then that's pretty flimsy evidence


I don't know what other proof you are looking for, but ok


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## FlamingRain (May 2, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> His staff does not yet even look fully extended yet it's already inch away from Gai's wrist.


His arm is only so long. A swing follows an arc. Following through from that point would result in the staff missing Gai's hands unless you meant the staff would be elongated as he swung, which we don't see it doing. Though we wouldn't really be able to tell in just one panel...


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## FlamingRain (May 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Good, so there you go



Managing to capture the enemy =/= holding your technique back to avoid killing the enemy, though. You can just take the opportunity to capture an enemy after discovering that you failed to kill them, which is what I believe happened here.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> But you need to prove Guy went at Kisame with killing intent. You made a positive statement. The onus is on you to prove it.



Yes, and I've already done my part by pointing out that _Gai_ stated in no uncertain terms that he was using a sure-kill that his last sure-kill doesn't even compare to. That cannot be true if the next move is held back in order to avoid killing. Either Gai is a liar, or he didn't mind fighting with killing intent. What about you, again? What evidence do you have on your side beside a request from _Aoba_ (secondary in importance to Gai since Gai is the one we're talking about) to take Kisame alive?



Aegon Targaryen said:


> I don't need to prove a negative (Guy *didn't* try to kill Kisame), and even then, offered more evidence for my position.



That's not how it works. You're _not_ taking a neutral position, and if neither of us is taking a neutral position the burden of proof is shared. In a debate, the burden of proof lies upon you as long as you're making a claim. In my case, that Hirudora failed to kill Kisame, and in yours, that Gai only ever tried to capture Kisame. Since you are defending the proposition that Gai never meant to kill Kisame the onus lies upon you to provide evidence or arguments for that claim.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You can argue Guy used Hirudora _knowing_ it wouldn't kill Kisame, that's fair. That said, there is still the issue of Daikodan cushioning Kisame and that of even Base Guy's attacks affecting him somewhat.



Daikōdan would not serve as cushioning for Hirudora because of what both attacks are made of. This will come up again in a below quote.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> And as I said, Hirudora is a punch, and a punch can be easily controlled in power.
> 
> The AoE of said punch is irrelevant.



The AoE is not irrelevant because it means the attack cannot miss any spot on the body. The power comes from the sudden expansion (there would be no point in first condensing the air otherwise). It's not like Sekizō where the wall of air is only a side effect of the punch's speed (and thus would weaken the further away you get).



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Fair, but see a few paragraphs above.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> And Guy didn't have his Hirudora tiger bite into Kisame and fling him away before detonating like he did with Madara either.



True, he actually compressed it _even more_ before it detonated, with it resulting in an even larger explosion.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Still yes. That's how jutsu work in this manga, jutsu repeatedly weaken each other in clashes all the time.



They do that when they're made out of substances that would offer resistance to each other. Water doesn't absorb the pressure from explosions like air does and Kisame's Jutsu was made out of water. You compared it to a bullet going through a series of barriers before it hit a car seat on discord iirc, but the issue is that in this case, the water wouldn't serve as a protective barrier to begin with.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> It also explains why Kisame only got KOed by Hirudora in spite of it being >>>>> Base Guy's attacks which were *already enough* to affect Kisame somewhat.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



That's the _emaciated_ Kisame.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Unless you want to argue 7G Guy is just barely above Base Guy, I guess


Nope. I would argue that tanking a weaker hit doesn't tell Gai precisely how hard he can hit Kisame, which his supporters are arguing he magically knew.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> That's for humor, lol. Guy's memory didn't ever fail him in actual combat though.



It's humorous, but Gai legitimately didn't remember Kisame until after he sacrificed himself to avoid giving the alliance knowledge.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, both.



I legit don't know how you can argue otherwise. If Kisame was at the epicenter, what does it matter if he needed it for the sharks?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 2, 2022)

Mockingbyrd said:


> Pain was not interested in killing certain shinobis of konoha, he just casted jutus that could kill all at once. Point is She survived the attack, that was meant,and actually managed, to destroy whole village, all while protecting others.
> Your points about Madara carries no sense within. In which realm, cuttings in half is no killing intent?


My point makes no sense because you completely missed it. 

Neither Pain nor Madara finished off Tsunade when they _could have_. They weren't interested enough to actually kill her. That's not how it works in a BD fight. Pain isn't going to ignore Tsunade because Naruto shows up. Madara isn't going to let Tsunade put herself back together because he has other things to do. Gai isn't going to stop attacking her just because she survives one major attack. 

(Also, way to diminish Katsuyu's role in protecting the village against Pain)

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (May 2, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> My point makes no sense because you completely missed it.
> 
> Neither Pain nor Madara finished off Tsunade when they _could have_. They weren't interested enough to actually kill her. That's not how it works in a BD fight. Pain isn't going to ignore Tsunade because Naruto shows up. Madara isn't going to let Tsunade put herself back together because he has other things to do. Gai isn't going to stop attacking her just because she survives one major attack.
> 
> (Also, way to diminish Katsuyu's role in protecting the village against Pain)



The problem is that Tsunade will have her regeneration active here, unlike in the other two instances. Gai will always find himself back at square one because Tsunade's body will keep repairing itself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> Managing to capture the enemy =/= holding your technique back to avoid killing the enemy, though



But trying to capture the enemy does imply you would hold back to capture them, unless explicitly stated or shown otherwise.

So far, you have not provided any explicit evidence of any sort, whereas I still have Guy being told to capture him for intel (alive).



FlamingRain said:


> You can just take the opportunity to capture an enemy after discovering that you failed to kill them, which is what I believe happened here



If only you had proof.



FlamingRain said:


> Yes, and I've already done my part by pointing out that _Gai_ stated in no uncertain terms that he was using a sure-kill that his last sure-kill doesn't even compare to



Yes, and I already debunked the notion that using a sure-kill =/ using it to kill.



FlamingRain said:


> That cannot be true if the next move is held back in order to avoid killing



It can though?



FlamingRain said:


> Either Gai is a liar, or he didn't mind fighting with killing intent



Or Guy is simply stating a fact - Hirudora is superior to Asakujaku. His intent literally does not change that fact.

Nowhere does he say he is fighting with KI. 



FlamingRain said:


> What about you, again? What evidence do you have on your side beside a request from _Aoba_ (secondary in importance to Gai since Gai is the one we're talking about) to take Kisame alive?



Why is it secondary in importance? It is the only evidence we have on the topic pointing in any direction of our debate.

Guess what, it points *in favor of* Guy holding back.



FlamingRain said:


> That's not how it works. You're _not_ taking a neutral position, and if neither of us is taking a neutral position the burden of proof is shared. In a debate, the burden of proof lies upon you as long as you're making a claim. In my case, that Hirudora failed to kill Kisame, and in yours, that Gai only ever tried to capture Kisame. Since you are defending the proposition that Gai never meant to kill Kisame the onus lies upon you to provide evidence or arguments for that claim



I proved my claim. You did not prove yours. 



FlamingRain said:


> The AoE is not irrelevant because it means the attack cannot miss any spot on the body. The power comes from the sudden expansion (there would be no point in first condensing the air otherwise). It's not like Sekizō where the wall of air is only a side effect of the punch's speed (and thus would weaken the further away you get)



Okay, but none of that changes the fact Hirudora is still a punch and a punch can be regulated pretty easily in terms of power.



FlamingRain said:


> True, he actually compressed it _even more_ before it detonated, with it resulting in an even larger explosion



Proof? 



FlamingRain said:


> They do that when they're made out of substances that would offer resistance to each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mockingbyrd (May 3, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Neither Pain nor Madara finished off Tsunade when they _could have_. They weren't interested enough to actually kill her. That's not how it works in a BD fight. Pain isn't going to ignore Tsunade because Naruto shows up. Madara isn't going to let Tsunade put herself back together because he has other things to do. Gai isn't going to stop attacking her just because she survives one major attack.


We are not saying that Tsunade is resilient because she survives Pain and Madara. We made the argument about certain jutsus, like chou shinra Tensei and being cut in half by Susanoo by, both techniques huge enough to kill most others. If they wanted they could kill her, but in guy's situation she has nothing to bisect her, any of his attacks can be tanked by Tsunade cause, as we saw in pain arc of during tenso no jutus Tsunade can survive pressure that was huge enough to desrtoy village or tear human into pieces. Tsunade was indirectly states do have inhuman resistance and all that without byakugou. Thanks to that mentioned jutsu she can survive anything guy has in his arsenal.




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Also, way to diminish Katsuyu's role in protecting the village against Pain


Tsunade gave her chakra to katsuyu, that's reason of her coma.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Paradise (May 3, 2022)

Tsunade used the Seal Chakra to protect the village, not herself.

Tsunade used the Seal Chakra to protect the village, not herself. 

Even the base Tsunade already has incredible Resistance feats, like going out with surviving a technique that can shred human bodies, or surviving a technique that can decimate a city.

 That's why I believe she wins, with Byakugou he has the resilience necessary to hold on until Gai runs out.


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