# Base Jiraiya vs 3T Itachi



## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

Distance: 50 meters

Location: CE

Intel: Rep on Uchiha, Rep on Sannin

Mindset: Can be OOC, but they are not BL

Restriction: MS. SM.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachi knows of Jiraiya's reputation, he uses Finger Genjutsu and calls it a day.


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## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

That simple eh ?

Wonder why he didnt do that in Part 1 of the series when they meet ?


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> That simple eh ?
> 
> Wonder why he didnt do that in Part 1 of the series when they meet ?



He didn't even try to fight Jiraiya, that's why.


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## Altair21 (Nov 16, 2014)

Jiraiya uses his toad mouth trap jutsu and calls it a day. It took amaterasu to break out of that thing and base Itachi has nothing in his arsenal that equals amaterasu, so he's essentially screwed.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Altair21 said:


> Jiraiya uses his toad mouth trap jutsu and calls it a day. It took amaterasu to break out of that thing and base Itachi has nothing in his arsenal that equals amaterasu, so he's essentially screwed.



I don't think Jiraiya will be able to get anything off though, without getting caught in Itachi's Genjutsu. Itachi can cast Genjutsu faster than Jiraiya can use his Gamaguchi Shibari, Jiraiya has to get close to Itachi for that to work.


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## Altair21 (Nov 16, 2014)

His toad mouth trap jutsu doesn't take long at all and I'm sure he'd be capable of getting it off before Itachi can do anything.


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## Hachibi (Nov 16, 2014)

So let's break thing up to show how Itachi counter Jiraiya:

Summon: They get controlled by genjutsu and attack Jiraiya.

YN: Itachi summon a crow and fly on it.

Katon: Get countered by Katon

Rasengan: Won't land on Itachi except with distraction

Hair Jutsu: Non-factor.

KB: Get countered by CB.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Altair21 said:


> His toad mouth trap jutsu doesn't take long at all and I'm sure he'd be capable of getting it off before Itachi can do anything.



Itachi has to be close for that to work, they start 50 metres away. Itachi already has significant Genjutsu range, Jiraiya's summon is inferior in that regard.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachi mindfucks Jiraiya and cuts his hands off.

Nothing to see here.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 16, 2014)

Whats stopping Jiraiya from summoning  a frog army to crush itachi? People have been shown to summon boss summons in like .5 seconds in the manga.

Frog Army gg


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Whats stopping Jiraiya from summoning  a frog army to crush itachi? People have been shown to summon boss summons in like .5 seconds in the manga.
> 
> Frog Army gg



Itachi can still take them out via Genjutsu. Also, in the Chunin Exams arena I don't think that there's enough room.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Itachi can still take them out via Genjutsu. Also, in the Chunin Exams arena I don't think that there's enough room.



Itachi can't maintain line of sight with 10 frogs and jiraiya at the same time..............


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Itachi can't maintain line of sight with 10 frogs and jiraiya at the same time..............



10 frogs? You mean 3? He doesn't have to take them out at the same time, the summons aren't fast enough to hit Itachi, they will pressure him though with some large scale Katons.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> 10 frogs? You mean 3? He doesn't have to take them out at the same time, the summons aren't fast enough to hit Itachi, they will pressure him though with some large scale Katons.



10 frogs and jiraiya will outlast itachi. Jiraiya has already been shown to have massive chakra reserves. Whats stopping Jiraiya and his army to toad oil the entire battle field, While Jiraiya just chills with the toads taking shots at itachi until he tires.

Actually a even better way of Jiraiya securing victory is to just toad stomach itachi while he is skirmishing with the toads.

No I ment 10 lol. They all don't have to be as big as the big 3 from the pain fight.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> 10 frogs and jiraiya will outlast itachi. Jiraiya has already been shown to have massive chakra reserves. Whats stopping Jiraiya and his army to toad oil the entire battle field, While Jiraiya just chills with the toads taking shots at itachi until he tires.
> 
> Actually a even better way of Jiraiya securing victory is to just toad stomach itachi while he is skirmishing with the toads.



Please, show me the 10 frogs? We've only been shown 4 that are actually useful. Jiraiya's not gonna summon Ma and Pa without SM.

Base Itachi's not making use of his MS so he still has a large amount of Chakra to use. Itachi can still use Genjutsu on the toads with multiple Karasu Bunshin.

Still, Itachi's faster than Jiraiya and I believe that he'll cast a Genjutsu before Jiraiya gets a chance to do anything. He already knows about Jiraiya's toad summons, given that his title is "The Toad Sage".


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## SSMG (Nov 16, 2014)

Jiraiya takes this one more times than not. He uses toad stomach trap and swamp of the underworld to which Itachi has no counters too.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Jiraiya has a significantly superior base arsenal than Itachi, but I honestly don't see him getting past Itachi's Finger Genjutsu.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Please, show me the 10 frogs? We've only been shown 4 that are actually useful. Jiraiya's not gonna summon Ma and Pa without SM.
> 
> Base Itachi's not making use of his MS so he still has a large amount of Chakra to use. Itachi can still use Genjutsu on the toads with multiple Karasu Bunshin.
> 
> Still, Itachi's faster than Jiraiya and* I believe that he'll cast a Genjutsu before Jiraiya gets a chance to do anything*. He already knows about Jiraiya's toad summons, given that his title is "The Toad Sage".



You don't know that at all. I am not going to argue with when alls you do is keep repeating the same argument. I know your an itachi fanboy but seriously try to keep an open mind.


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## SSMG (Nov 16, 2014)

@Itachi 
You mean the same technique beginning of part2 Naruto was about to Kai out of? Jman Kai's out in a second flat.. If he even gets caught by it.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You don't know that at all. I am not going to argue with when alls you do is keep repeating the same argument. I know your an itachi fanboy but seriously try to keep an open mind.



What? 

Logically though, how could Jiraiya counter Itachi's Finger Genjutsu right from the beginning. It's one argument I know, but how is Jiraiya going to counter it?



SSMG said:


> @Itachi
> You mean the same technique beginning of part2 Naruto was about to Kai out of? Jman Kai's out in a second flat.. If he even gets caught by it.



He's not going to know that he's in a Genjutsu immediately, even a second is enough for Itachi to kill him.


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## SSMG (Nov 16, 2014)

The same way sakura kakashi and chiyo countered it.. Not look at it.. Or jiraiya can simply Kai out.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SSMG said:


> The same way sakura kakashi and chiyo countered it.. Not look at it.. Or jiraiya can simply Kai out.



I don't believe that Itachi even tried to put them in a Genjutsu. Like I said, Jiraiya's not going to know immediately and Itachi can kill him. Itachi's Genjutsu on Naruto was obviously not reality, but Itachi could make it realistic if he wanted to. If Itachi points to him, chances are that Jiraiya's going to look.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> What?
> 
> Logically though, how could Jiraiya counter Itachi's Finger Genjutsu right from the beginning. It's one argument I know, but how is Jiraiya going to counter it?
> 
> ...



Jiraiya is a sanin level shinobi who's sole purpose has been to hunt down and track the akastsuki. Your telling me Jiraiya doesn't know anything about ITACHI the one akatsuki member from the HIDDEN LEAF.

When he has been doing this for years. To be FAIR I don't actually know if Jiraiya is an expert on Itachi. But putting this into  LOGICAL perspective. Id bet any money Jiraiya knows all about the sharingan and genjutsu and how to counter it.


Jiraiya didn't know about Amatarasu because unlocking the MS was such a rare thing Itachi wasn't going to let a soul know about and if he did they are prob dead.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Jiraiya is a sanin level shinobi who's sole purpose has been to hunt down and track the akastsuki. Your telling me Jiraiya doesn't know anything about ITACHI the one akatsuki member from the HIDDEN LEAF.
> 
> When he has been doing this for years. To be FAIR I don't actually know if Jiraiya is an expert on Itachi. But putting this into  LOGICAL perspective. Id bet any money Jiraiya knows all about the sharingan and genjutsu and how to counter it.
> 
> Jiraiya didn't know about Amatarasu because unlocking the MS was such a rare thing Itachi wasn't going to let a soul know about and if he did they are prob dead.



In these stipulations, all Jiraiya knows about Itachi is that he's an Uchiha. Even if it was Manga knowledge, we can't assume that Jiraiya knows about Finger Genjutsu, has he ever seen Itachi use it in battle? No. Itachi's also the only known Finger Genjutsu user, it's not common amongst Uchiha like Katon: Gokakyu.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

With only rep to go on it just comes down to who pulls out their one-shot first. Itachi can one-shot with certain Genjutsu (assuming Jiriaya doesn't have a Toad or KB out to break him free), however Jiraiya can one shot with a variety of his Jutsu like FCD, Yomi Numa, Toad Stomach, Gama Yu Endan, Drilling Water Bullets, etc... However overall Jiraiya's odds are better because he has more win conditions and the moment Jiriaya summons out any moderately powerful Toad he gains a partner that can save him from Itachi's Genjutsu (or visa versa) and Itachi fighting against Jiriaya + any strong Toad is way to much for him to handle.

The match would be even if Jiraiya's summons were restricted.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> With only rep to go on it just comes down to who pulls out their one-shot first. Itachi can one-shot with certain Genjutsu (assuming Jiriaya doesn't have a Toad or KB out to break him free), however Jiraiya can one shot with a variety of his Jutsu like FCD, Yomi Numa, Toad Stomach, Gama Yu Endan, Drilling Water Bullets, etc... However overall Jiraiya's odds are better because he has more win conditions and the moment Jiriaya summons out any moderately powerful Toad he gains a partner that can save him from Itachi's Genjutsu (or visa versa) and Itachi fighting against Jiriaya + any strong Toad is way to much for him to handle.
> 
> The match would be even if Jiraiya's summons were restricted.




The difference is, Jiraiya's techs means that he has to be close when Itachi could use Genjutsu at a range. They start off at 50 metres.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> With only rep to go on it just comes down to who pulls out their one-shot first. Itachi can one-shot with certain Genjutsu (assuming Jiriaya doesn't have a Toad or KB out to break him free), however Jiraiya can one shot with a variety of his Jutsu like FCD, Yomi Numa, Toad Stomach, Gama Yu Endan, Drilling Water Bullets, etc... However overall Jiraiya's odds are better because he has more win conditions and the moment Jiriaya summons out any moderately powerful Toad he gains a partner that can save him from Itachi's Genjutsu (or visa versa) and Itachi fighting against Jiriaya + any strong Toad is way to much for him to handle.
> 
> The match would be even if Jiraiya's summons were restricted.




Jiraiya can't execute any jutsu before Itachi can execute his. Especially when you consider that Itachi can catch him with genjutsu through eye contact, finger or his Koto crow(like he did to Naruto) before any of that can happen. Also as reminder, Itachi is the guy who  did this to Kabuto :  Link removed
Oh and before you say Kabuto is shit, the same Kabuto was countering Sasuke perfectly : Link removed
Link removed

Jiraiya gets absolutely crushed.


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## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

In part 1

Why would Itachi react with Amaterasu (MS) if he could have just 1 finger genjutsu jiraiya and then leave ? Why go the extra mile to use Amaterasu ? Jiraiya is more capable than orochimaru when dealing with itachi


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> In part 1
> 
> Why would Itachi react with Amaterasu (MS) if he could have just 1 finger genjutsu jiraiya and then leave ? Why go the extra mile to use Amaterasu ? Jiraiya is more capable than orochimaru when dealing with itachi



Using Genjutsu on Jiraiya wouldn't get rid of the summon.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> In part 1
> 
> Why would Itachi react with Amaterasu (MS) if he could have just 1 finger genjutsu jiraiya and then leave ? Why go the extra mile to use Amaterasu ? Jiraiya is more capable than orochimaru when dealing with itachi



Because Kisame'd be like, why are we leaving if you can just 1shot the dude with genjutsu ? Itachi's cover would be blown.

In otherwords plot.

I am pretty sure people would have trouble believing Itachi doing the same thing to Orochimaru @ that point in the manga.


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## ZE (Nov 16, 2014)

Both Itachi and Jiraiya have jutsus that can beat each other, and frankly, they should be more or less equal (with 3 tomoe Itachi having an edge over base Jiraiya). Normally this would go 6/4 in Itachi's favor, but since Itachi's jutsus are easier to pull off (eye genjutsu) than the toad jutsu Jiraiya used in part one, a Jiraiya triumph would only come from Itachi making the mistake of not taking the fight seriously enough by allowing Jiraiya to do his thing: namely summoning jutsus.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Whats stopping Jiraiya from summoning  a frog army to crush itachi? People have been shown to summon boss summons in like .5 seconds in the manga.
> 
> Frog Army gg



Kunai in the eyes, just like Nagato's summons.

Not even a challenge.


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## Ersa (Nov 16, 2014)

Base Itachi already defeated Jiraiya's equal in Orochimaru


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Jiraiya has a significantly superior base arsenal than Itachi, but I honestly don't see him getting past Itachi's Finger Genjutsu.


If a fucking beginning of Part II Naruto could resist it, Jiraiya can break it with ease. Utakata is useless against Kage Level shinobi.

Even after the series, why are you wanking him?


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## RBL (Nov 16, 2014)

restrict itachi and itachi would still win mid diff.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Brandon Lee said:


> restrict itachi and itachi would still win mid diff.


Itachi isn't that fucking powerful. The manga clearly put him on Jiraiya's level _with_ Mangekyo. Without it? Jiraiya clearly wins and it shouldn't even be a contest.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If a fucking beginning of Part II Naruto could resist it, Jiraiya can break it with ease. Utakata is useless against Kage Level shinobi.
> 
> Even after the series, why are you wanking him?



It was Chiyo and/or Sakura who woke Naruto up. Naruto couldn't have broken it by himself. Like I said before, Itachi made it obvious that Naruto was in a Genjutsu. He could use Finger Genjutsu on Jiraiya without him even knowing that it was a Genjutsu. Even if he did find out, one second of delaying Jiraiya is enough for Itachi to swoop in and kill him. 

I'm not wanking him.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi isn't that fucking powerful. The manga clearly put him on Jiraiya's level _with_ Mangekyo. Without it? Jiraiya clearly wins and it shouldn't even be a contest.



The Manga also put Sakura on the same level as KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.


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## Gibbs (Nov 16, 2014)

How is Itachi getting past Needle Jizo?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> It was Chiyo and/or Sakura who woke Naruto up. Naruto couldn't have broken it by himself. Like I said before, Itachi made it obvious that Naruto was in a Genjutsu. He could use Finger Genjutsu on Jiraiya without him even knowing that it was a Genjutsu. Even if he did find out, one second of delaying Jiraiya is enough for Itachi to swoop in and kill him.
> 
> I'm not wanking him.


Yes, you are wanking Itachi. Ukataka was used on Naruto at the beginning of Part II when he was barely Jonin level. Naruto couldn't break it due to poor control but he could resist it long enough for Chiyo and Sakura to break him out. Jiraiya, who has more experience, better chakra control, and is more intelligent than Naruto was at the time would have NO trouble breaking it.

Its useless against Kage level ninja. 


> The Manga also put Sakura on the same level as KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.


And Jiraiya fucking has the feats to back up where Itachi placed him. Itachi's own words say he can't defeat Jiraiya, merely tie with him.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> How is Itachi getting past Needle Jizo?



Suiton: Suiryudan no Jutsu or a standard Katon should do the trick, bare in mind that Itachi's hand seals and Jutsu executions are insanely fast.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Suiton: Suiryudan no Jutsu or a standard Katon should do the trick, bare in mind that Itachi's hand seals and Jutsu executions are insanely fast.


Insanely fast to Jonin level shinobi, traceable and counterable by Kage level.

Itachi isn't beating Jiraiya unless he has the Mangekyo, and even then its more than likely to be a tie.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, you are wanking Itachi. Ukataka was used on Naruto at the beginning of Part II when he was barely Jonin level. Naruto couldn't break it due to poor control but he could resist it long enough for Chiyo and Sakura to break him out. Jiraiya, who has more experience, better chakra control, and is more intelligent than Naruto was at the time would have NO trouble breaking it.
> 
> Its useless against Kage level ninja.



I'm not wanking Itachi, I'm posting what I think. But, how would he know to break out of it if he has no idea that it's a Genjutsu in the first place? That's the point I'm making. And again, even if delayed for a split second Itachi could kill him while Jiraiya's still breaking out of it. 



> And Jiraiya fucking has the feats to back up where Itachi placed him. Itachi's own words say he can't defeat Jiraiya, merely tie with him.



It's insane to think that Jiraiya could take on both MS Itachi _and_ Kisame.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Insanely fast to Jonin level shinobi, traceable and counterable by Kage level.
> 
> Itachi isn't beating Jiraiya unless he has the Mangekyo, and even then its more than likely to be a tie.



Jiraiya hasn't shown any feats in that area, just because he's a Kage level Shinobi it doesn't mean that we can assume that he's able to trace it. Even if Jiraiya can trace it, Itachi's faster at executing Jutsu.


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## Gibbs (Nov 16, 2014)

Frog Call is still an option as is Gamarinsho. Jiraiya cannot use SM, but that's not stopping him from summoning 6+ Toads & Ma & Pa.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> I'm not wanking Itachi, I'm posting what I think. But, how would he know to break out of it if he has no idea that it's a Genjutsu in the first place? That's the point I'm making. And again, even if delayed for a split second Itachi could kill him while Jiraiya's still breaking out of it.


What you think isn't what is correct. Itachi has feats showing him against a Naruto with poor chakra control and little experience with genjutsu. Jiraiya, given his experience would be able to tell he's in a genjutsu and break out of it before Itachi could make a killing blow.




> It's insane to think that Jiraiya could take on both MS Itachi _and_ Kisame.


With Sage Mode, which pressured Pain, its not 'insane' at all. Given he has access to Fukasaku and Shima's genjutsu, Sage Mode Sensing, Frog Katas, etc. he should be able to beat both of them.



Itachі said:


> Jiraiya hasn't shown any feats in that area, just because he's a Kage level Shinobi it doesn't mean that we can assume that he's able to trace it. Even if Jiraiya can trace it, Itachi's faster at executing Jutsu.


Everytime Itachi's faced a Kage Level Ninja, his jutsu has been easily traced and countered. Hell it wasn't even wanked once in Part II.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What you think isn't what is correct. Itachi has feats showing him against a Naruto with poor chakra control and little experience with genjutsu. Jiraiya, given his experience would be able to tell he's in a genjutsu and break out of it before Itachi could make a killing blow.



Has anybody been able to tell that they are in a Genjutsu without Sharingan when the Genjutsu is realistic? Please provide evidence if they have because I don't recall. I only remember Sharingan users being able to tell that they are in a Genjutsu when it's realistic. I highly doubt Jiraiya could realise he's in a Genjutsu, break out of and dodge Itachi's attack before Itachi kills him. 



> With Sage Mode, which pressured Pain, its not 'insane' at all. Given he has access to Fukasaku and Shima's genjutsu, Sage Mode Sensing, Frog Katas, etc. he should be able to beat both of them.



He's definitely not getting into SM with both Itachi and Kisame going at him.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Everytime Itachi's faced a Kage Level Ninja, his jutsu has been easily traced and countered. Hell it wasn't even wanked once in Part II.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

You do realize that's in Izanami, NOT in real life, right?


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## Gibbs (Nov 16, 2014)

Way to take a scan from inside the Izanami loop


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> The difference is, Jiraiya's techs means that he has to be close when Itachi could use Genjutsu at a range. They start off at 50 metres.


What, Jiraiya's techniques have a much bigger range than Itachi's Genjutsu. I didn't even see the range, knowing that Itachi stands no chance.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya can't execute any jutsu before Itachi can execute his. Especially when you consider that Itachi can catch him with genjutsu through eye contact, finger or his Koto crow(like he did to Naruto) before any of that can happe


Your making a-lot of beneficial assumptions for Itachi. Itachi might starts with a Genjutsu, but than again he might start with basic Ninjutsu or Taijutsu, if he does the latter it gives Jiraiya enough time to pull out his own Jutsu or Toads. And assuming Itachi does start with Genjutsu, it depends how he uses that Genjutsu. If he uses finger Genjutsu,  I don't see that defeating a legendary-sannin. If he uses Three Tome illusion Genjutsu, it will give him an opening but it will still enable Jiraiya to use his own Jutsu or summonings, which could still save him from Itachi's assaults despite the illusion being in place. If he uses binding Genjutsu to cut off Jiraiya's hand, Jiraiya would still win, as he could still summon and use a variety of Jutsu like Rasengan. 

Thee only scenario where Jiraiya would loose instantly to Genjutsu is if Itachi used binding Genjutsu and than went right for Jiriaya's neck, which I doubt is every time (or even most times) if we play the battle out 100 times. And this all works on the assumption that Jiraiya would not avoid eye-contact, against a famous Uchiha w/o any Toads/Bushin/Etc.. on the battlefield, which i'm not sure of to begin with.



> Also as reminder, Itachi is the guy who did this to Kabuto : Link removed
> Oh and before you say Kabuto is shit, the same Kabuto was countering Sasuke perfectly


That was in a Genjutsu lol. SM-Kabuto would own Itachi in that Jutsu exchange otherwise.

Edit:

To put it another way, if we put all the ways we've seen Jiriaya and Itachi start a match into a random generator, the match would probably play out more beneficially for Jiraiya than Itach most of the time.

1. Jiriaya started against Kisame/Itachi by using Toad Stomach 
2. Jiraiya started his match against Oro/Buto trying to summon Gammabunta
3. Jiraiya started attacking those fodder with Toad Stomach
4. Jiriaya started his match against Konan with a Katon Endan 
5. Jiraiya started his match against Pain with Wild Lions Mane 

1. Itachi started his match against Kakashi with Suiton
2. Itachi started his match against Naruto and company with Finger Gen
3. Itachi started his match with Orochimaru w/ Binding Genjutsu and cutting off his hand
4. Itachi started his match with Deidara with illusion Genjutsu
5. Itachi started his match against Sasuke with Feint Genjutsu
6. Itachi started his match against Naruto and B with  Katon

1. Jiriaya's second move against Orobuto was Yomi Numa
2. Jiraiya's second move against Konan was Wild Lions Mane (not counting oil as that was case specific)
3. Jiriaya's second move against Pain was summoning

1. Itachi's second move against Kakashi was Exploding Bushin
2. Itachi's second move against Naruto and company was a Katon
3. Itachi's second move against Sasuke was Shuriken 
4. Itachi's second move against Naruto and B was Taijutsu


Throw this data into a random generator (random.org) and see what happens

1) Jiraiya attack 2 (Summons Bunta) vs Itachi Finger Gen, even if Finger Gen isn't broken by Jiraiya and Jiraiya looks at Itachi's finger, he''l still summon Bunta out and Itachi's pretty much fucked from there.
2) Jiraiya starts with Toad Stomach, Itachi starts out with Binding Genjutsu and cutting of Jiriaya's hand. Assuming Jiriaya falls for it, he still can summon the Toad stomach afterwards, which Itachi is pretty much fucked against.
3) Jiraiya starts with wild lione's mane, Itachi starts with suiton. Nether are killing each other with these Jutsu, but Jiraiya's will be more difficult to deal with. Move on to their second moves. Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa, and Itachi uses Taijutsu, Itachi is fucked. 
4) Jiraiya starts with Katon, Itachi starts with a Katon. Jiraiya's Katon overwhelms Itachi's and Itachi is fucked
5) Jiraiya starts with Toad stomach Itachi starts with Genjutsu feint, which doesn't matter due to Toad stomachs AOE, and Itachi is fucked again
6) Jiraiya starts with Toad stomach Itachi starts with an illusion, but doesn't matter due to Toad stomach's AOE

Those are just some random matches.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Has anybody been able to tell that they are in a Genjutsu without Sharingan when the Genjutsu is realistic? Please provide evidence if they have because I don't recall. I only remember Sharingan users being able to tell that they are in a Genjutsu when it's realistic. I highly doubt Jiraiya could realise he's in a Genjutsu, break out of and dodge Itachi's attack before Itachi kills him.


Jiraiya isn't an idiot. He knows he's up against Itachi, he knows the danger of his genjutsu and would be extra cautious. Hell he'd probably take Genjutsu off the table all together with his sensing barrier combo. 

Jiraiya explained how to break genjutsu, and he has the experience, chakra control, and intelligence to do so.


> He's definitely not getting into SM with both Itachi and Kisame going at him.


He could against fucking _Pain_, whose far stronger than Itachi and kisame.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize that's in Izanami, NOT in real life, right?



Oh, lol. My mistake. 



Turrin said:


> What, Jiraiya's techniques have a much bigger range than Itachi's Genjutsu. I didn't even see the range, knowing that Itachi stands no chance.



How is Jiraiya's Toad Stomach or Yomi Numa going to extend farther than Itachi's Genjutsu can? Ao hyped Itachi's Genjutsu range.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya isn't an idiot. He knows he's up against Itachi, he knows the danger of his genjutsu and would be extra cautious. Hell he'd probably take Genjutsu off the table all together with his sensing barrier combo.
> 
> Jiraiya explained how to break genjutsu, and he has the experience, chakra control, and intelligence to do so.



You see, you keep saying that Jiraiya's smart so he can break out of the Genjutsu. Here, he only has knowledge on the Uchiha in general. He doesn't have knowledge on Itachi. He's going to be cautious of Genjutsu but not as cautious as he would if he knew it was Itachi, he has no knowledge on Itachi's Finger Genjutsu. He's not going to pull off that Kekkei before Itachi pulls off his Genjutsu. So your argument is invalid, he's not going to know that he's in a Genjutsu and he's not going to be extra cautious of Genjutsu either.



> He could against fucking _Pain_, whose far stronger than Itachi and kisame.



While he was constantly running away and using guerrilla tactics against an enemy that wasn't even serious. Deva could have ended it at any time.


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## Empathy (Nov 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Summon: They get controlled by genjutsu and attack Jiraiya.



[_Link_]

[_Link_]

Not to mention an easily employable partner method when Jiraiya's in such a close proximity to them. Either of those techniques are game-enders here, and Itachi's genjutsu is not necessarily one.



> YN: Itachi summon a crow and fly on it.



Post an example of Itachi possessing one large enough and displaying capability of something so unsubstantiated. 



> Katon: Get countered by Katon



[_Link_]



> KB: Get countered by CB.



_Karasu Bunshin_ possess less chakra than _Kage Bunshin_, and are therefore weaker. It would require more than one _Karasu Bunshin_ to equal one _Kage Bunshin_, not to mention the absurd stamina disparity that Jiraiya possess over Itachi, who can't make as many bunshin. I don't even understand the asinine logic of clones somehow negating other clones.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> How is Itachi getting past Needle Jizo?



Dodge it like he did everything else in this manga.

Or he can counter with a Suiton wall or hell maybe even pinpoint them all with thrown shuriken in mid-air. 

EDIT: Oh wait, you're talking about the shield version. That's even easier. Itachi can just set J-man on fire with a Katon. ck



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, you are wanking Itachi. Ukataka was used on Naruto at the beginning of Part II when he was barely Jonin level. Naruto couldn't break it due to poor control but he could resist it long enough for Chiyo and Sakura to break him out.



Naruto didn't resist shit. He nearly asphyxiated himself into a coma before those two saved his ass. His morale was completely broken and he looked like he was about to shit himself and pass out.



> Jiraiya, who has more experience, better chakra control, and is more intelligent than Naruto was at the time would have NO trouble breaking it.
> 
> Its useless against Kage level ninja.



And you know this because...

Oh wait. You don't.



> And Jiraiya fucking has the feats to back up where Itachi placed him. Itachi's own words say he can't defeat Jiraiya, merely tie with him.



Jiraiya's feats put him as Orochimaru's equal and we all saw how that guy stacked up to the King.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If a fucking beginning of Part II Naruto could resist it, Jiraiya can break it with ease.



Naruto didn't resist it, and even if he could, that doesn't mean Jiraiya can break it as we have no basis for comparison between the two. It's an assumption that Jiraiya is even better than Naruto at Kai in the first place.



> Utakata is useless against Kage Level shinobi.



Itachi's Genjutsu have bent Kage-level shinobi over his knee. There's no apparent reason to assume the finger Genjutsu is an exception. It's not like Kage-level shinobi have an innate immunity, and the vast majority of them certainly don't hold a candle to Itachi in Genjutsu proficiency.



> Even after the series, why are you wanking him?



He's not. You're just stuck in Izanami.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize that's in Izanami, NOT in real life, right?



You say this but I know you wouldn't be saying shit if we were talking about Naruto fighting the Kyuubi in his mind. 

Mental feats=Real life feats unless there is an egregious discrepancy between the two that warrants suspicion. In this case, Izanami only takes a segment of time and replays it endlessly; there is no power-bending to suit the caster. Itachi's not even in the loop himself to control it. Literally everything he did inside the loop was consistent with prior feats outside (including getting blitzed and stabbed by Kabuto).

Can the nonsense and come back with a real argument.



Ersatz said:


> Base Itachi already defeated Jiraiya's equal in Orochimaru



^This.



Brandon Lee said:


> restrict itachi and itachi would still win mid diff.



^And this. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi isn't that fucking powerful. The manga clearly put him on Jiraiya's level _with_ Mangekyo. Without it? Jiraiya clearly wins and it shouldn't even be a contest.



Someone doesn't know how to take a joke.

And fyi, Jiraiya's Sage Mode is restricted here, too.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> How is Jiraiya's Toad Stomach or Yomi Numa going to extend farther than Itachi's Genjutsu can? Ao hyped Itachi's Genjutsu range.


No he didn't. He hyped up the CONTROL, not the range. Itachi relies on line of sight genjutsu, he can't genjutsu from long range. However, when he puts someone in a genjutsu he can control them from long range. We see this during his very first confrontation with Naruto.




> You see, you keep saying that Jiraiya's smart so he can break out of the Genjutsu. Here, he only has knowledge on the Uchiha in general. He doesn't have knowledge on Itachi. He's going to be cautious of Genjutsu but not as cautious as he would if he knew it was Itachi, he has no knowledge on Itachi's Finger Genjutsu. He's not going to pull of that Kekkei before Itachi pulls of his Genjutsu. So your argument is invalid, he's not going to know that he's in a Genjutsu and he's not going to be extra cautious of Genjutsu either.


Even Chiyo knew how to combat a Uchiha. Jiraiya can utilize similar strategies. And Ukataka is USELESS against Kage level opponents, it hasn't been used ONCE since Naruto, who had little genjutsu experience and countering, and yet you're hyping it to all amounts!

Jiraiya can easily recognize he is in a genjutsu. he's not a genin.


> While he was constantly running away and using guerrilla tactics against an enemy that wasn't even serious. Deva could have ended it at any time.


Not according to Pain himself. And said tactics aren't useful against Itachi and Kisame? Why? And don't answer 'because he's Itachi'.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No he didn't. He hyped up the CONTROL, not the range. Itachi relies on line of sight genjutsu, he can't genjutsu from long range. However, when he puts someone in a genjutsu he can control them from long range. We see this during his very first confrontation with Naruto.



He hyped his control from a long range though..





> Even Chiyo knew how to combat a Uchiha. Jiraiya can utilize similar strategies. And Ukataka is USELESS against Kage level opponents, it hasn't been used ONCE since Naruto, who had little genjutsu experience and countering, and yet you're hyping it to all amounts!
> 
> Jiraiya can easily recognize he is in a genjutsu. he's not a genin.



I'm not hyping it. Oh lord. Chiyo wouldn't have been able to avoid the Finger Genjutsu if it was targeted at her. We've been through this before, they don't have knowledge on Finger Genjutsu, only Sharingan Genjutsu. You're the one that's wanking Jiraiya, saying that because he's smart he can instantly realise whether he's in a Genjutsu or not. You think that a person is immune to a technique when they become Kage level? Your statements are superficial and lack basis, provide some evidence. And you said that I was wanking. 



> Not according to Pain himself. And said tactics aren't useful against Itachi and Kisame? Why? And don't answer 'because he's Itachi'.



Pein could have easily killed him if he really wanted to, you're bullshitting yourself if you think that he couldn't. Jiraiya put up a good fight but all Pein had to do was bring in Deva or assemble the paths in one place like he did inn the end.

Said tactics aren't useful against Itachi and Kisame because they are going to be serious and actually chasing him down. Also, odds are that Jiraiya's not going to get lucky and land himself some nice terrain suitable for guerrilla tactics.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

Killer B is Kage-level and he would've been shit out of luck if he didn't have a partner inside his body to auto-counter Itachi's Genjutsu.

What's this about Jiraiya doing it instantly by himself?


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Yagura was controlled by 3 Tomoe Genjutsu for years.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

Fun Fact: Killer B evidently beat the Hachibi Bijuu in the chakra tug-of-war to become a perfect Jinchuuriki.

So tell me again how Jiraiya with his superb, better-than-beginning-of-part-II-Naruto chakra control easily breaks the same Genjutsu that B couldn't.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Yagura was controlled by 3 Tomoe Genjutsu for years.


By Obito. Whose genjutsu prowess was enhanced by Hashirama's cells and it was compared to Kotoamatsukami by Mei Terumi herself.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

We still don't know who actually cast the Genjutsu on Yagura, or what the Genjutsu was (more specifically, why it was able to supersede the perfect Jinchuuriki partner method).

I'm quite partial to the theory that Obito had Danzo or Shisui do him a solid with Koto, and then was simply the one to give Yagura orders, rather than controlling him personally.

But we'll never know until Kishi clears it up.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Ah, okay. I won't assume things then.


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## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

The logic by Itachi supporters is pretty bad.

3T Itachi's finger genjutsu owns even at the Kage level stage and above....that is wank.

Itachi needs at least his MS to deal with anyone at and above Kage level.....

Funny how Itachi supporters only argument to win against Jiraiya is the finger genjutsu, if that doesn't work, he loses, and I think these guys realize this...


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> The logic by Itachi supporters is pretty bad.
> 
> 3T Itachi's finger genjutsu owns even at the Kage level stage and above....that is wank.
> 
> Itachi needs at least his MS to deal with anyone at and above Kage level.....



If there's some evidence for this, that'd be great. Like I've said countless times before, even for Jiraiya to be delayed for a second it would be enough time for Itachi to kill him.



> Funny how Itachi supporters only argument to win against Jiraiya is the finger genjutsu, if that doesn't work, he loses, and I think these guys realize this...



That's my argument yes, his arsenal is inferior to Jiraiya's.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> He hyped his control from a long range though..


But he has to cast at short range.




> I'm not hyping it. Oh lord. Chiyo wouldn't have been able to avoid the Finger Genjutsu if it was targeted at her. We've been through this before, they don't have knowledge on Finger Genjutsu, only Sharingan Genjutsu. You're the one that's wanking Jiraiya, saying that because he's smart he can instantly realise whether he's in a Genjutsu or not. You think that a person is immune to a technique when they become Kage level? Your statements are superficial and lack basis, provide some evidence. And you said that I was wanking.


You are wanking. I even give you the name of the attack and you don't use it. You think just because it was effective against NARUTO, who at the time sucked at genjutsu recognition and chakra control, it'd be able to affect anyone. It hasn't been used since since it because obsolete. If it was so useful, why didn't he use it against Naruto again in the War? Why didn't he use it against Kabuto when Sharingan genjutsu was taken off the table? Why didn't he use it to try to delay Sasuke?

The answer is, it is only useful for low level opponents. Not high level ones.


> Pein could have easily killed him if he really wanted to, you're bullshitting yourself if you think that he couldn't. Jiraiya put up a good fight but all Pein had to do was bring in Deva or assemble the paths in one place like he did inn the end.


Nagato himself admited the only reason why they won was because Jiraiya didn't know the secret. If he did, he could have caught all six bodies in Gamarinsho and defeated them like he did with the three before.


> Said tactics aren't useful against Itachi and Kisame because they are going to be serious and actually chasing him down. Also, odds are that Jiraiya's not going to get lucky and land himself some nice terrain suitable for guerrilla tactics.


What's stopping Jiraiya from trapping Kisame in Gamashiburi (which he's shown he's unable to escape it) and then playing cat and mouse with Itachi until he channels enough chakra enough to summon Fukasaku and Shima for his Sage Mode?


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## Gibbs (Nov 16, 2014)




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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> The logic by Itachi supporters is pretty bad.
> 
> 3T Itachi's finger genjutsu owns even at the Kage level stage and above....that is wank.
> 
> Itachi needs at least his MS to deal with anyone at and above Kage level.....



You shoot down the logic of Itachi supporters and then proceed to make two completely baseless statements.

Where's the logic in that?



> Funny how Itachi supporters only argument to win against Jiraiya is the finger genjutsu, if that doesn't work, he loses, and I think these guys realize this...



Actually Itachi could just use his regular Genjutsu.

Restrict Genjutsu completely and this would be a fair fight.

Itachi still wins, though.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> How is Jiraiya's Toad Stomach or Yomi Numa going to extend farther than Itachi's Genjutsu can? Ao hyped Itachi's Genjutsu range.
> .


AO hyped the range at which Itachi could maintain a Genjutsu on someone not the range at which he could cast it. Most of Itachi's Genjutsu are short-range, and while Kishi does play around with ranges a bit, none are even coming remotely close to crossing 50m. Meanwhile Jiraiya has a host of powerful long-range jutsu that can cross that distance and the distance gives him time to pull out summons. There is no way Itachi can win with these conditions, unless Jiraiya makes some very critical mistakes.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But he has to cast at short range.



Fair enough, we still don't know the range of his Genjutsu though. The Databook says 5 metres but that's not trustworthy since it also said that Amaterasu's range is 5 metres. 



> You are wanking. I even give you the name of the attack and you don't use it. You think just because it was effective against NARUTO, who at the time sucked at genjutsu recognition and chakra control, it'd be able to affect anyone. It hasn't been used since since it because obsolete. If it was so useful, why didn't he use it against Naruto again in the War? Why didn't he use it against Kabuto when Sharingan genjutsu was taken off the table? Why didn't he use it to try to delay Sasuke?
> 
> The answer is, it is only useful for low level opponents. Not high level ones.



What does the name of the attack have to do with anything at all? 

Yes, it's Genjutsu. I'm not saying that nobody's able to break out of it, but I'm saying that it could be used to delay Jiraiya and kill him. Even Orochimaru was caught by Itachi's Genjutsu, a man portrayed on the same level as Jiraiya. There's your portrayal for you, buddy.

Why didn't he use Susano'o against Naruto? 

Finger Genjutsu is also a visual Genjutsu, it wouldn't work, I believe. 

He didn't even try to delay Sasuke.

Again man, some evidence would be great.



> Nagato himself admited the only reason why they won was because Jiraiya didn't know the secret. If he did, he could have caught all six bodies in Gamarinsho and defeated them like he did with the three before.
> 
> What's stopping Jiraiya from trapping Kisame in Gamashiburi (which he's shown he's unable to escape it) and then playing cat and mouse with Itachi until he channels enough chakra enough to summon Fukasaku and Shima for his Sage Mode?



That's true, but Jiraiya had a massive locational advantage and Pein was _not_ serious. If all 6 bodies were present before Jiraiya, he would have gotten destroyed before Jiraiya has a chance to do anything.



Turrin said:


> AO hyped the range at which Itachi could maintain a Genjutsu on someone not the range at which he could cast it. Most of Itachi's Genjutsu are short-range, and while Kishi does play around with ranges a bit, none are even coming remotely close to crossing 50m. Meanwhile Jiraiya has a host of powerful long-range jutsu that can cross that distance and the distance gives him time to pull out summons. There is no way Itachi can win with these conditions, unless Jiraiya makes some very critical mistakes.



Ah, okay. I still believe that Finger Genjutsu is his trump card, it's pretty much the only way he solidly defeats Jiraiya. Btw, I never dreamed that Itachi could cast Genjutsu from 50 metres away.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

You're kidding yourself if you think Jiraiya could touch Deva in that situation even if he had full knowledge.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Fair enough, we still don't know the range of his Genjutsu though. The Databook says 5 metres but that's not trustworthy since it also said that Amaterasu's range is 5 metres.


Each and every time Itachi's casted his genjutsu, its been short ranged. Never long. Thus he can't do it from long range.




> What does the name of the attack have to do with anything at all?
> 
> Yes, it's Genjutsu. I'm not saying that nobody's able to break out of it, but I'm saying that it could be used to delay Jiraiya and kill him. Even Orochimaru was caught by Itachi's Genjutsu, a man portrayed on the same level as Jiraiya. There's your portrayal for you, buddy.
> 
> ...


I'd like some evidence why he'd even use it in the first place against Jiraiya. The only reason why it worked against Naruto was due to his inexperience and poor chakra control. That's it. Unless its used against higher level opponents, I think its uses are limited. A educuated hypothesis.




> That's true, but Jiraiya had a massive locational advantage and Pein was _not_ serious. If all 6 bodies were present before Jiraiya, he would have gotten destroyed before Jiraiya has a chance to do anything.


Nagato was going in for the kill for the entire fight, how _wasn't_ he serious?




> Ah, okay. I still believe that Finger Genjutsu is his trump card, it's pretty much the only way he solidly defeats Jiraiya. Btw, I never dreamed that Itachi could cast Genjutsu from 50 metres away.


Ukataka isn't gonna work. Its uses are limited. If it was such a trump card, Itachi would have used it more than once.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It hasn't been used since since it because obsolete.



You're saying it's obsolete because it hasn't been used and you're saying it hasn't been used because it's obsolete. That's a circular argument.

Or maybe it's just your ham-fisted attempt at casting Izanami on us.



> If it was so useful, why didn't he use it against Naruto again in the War?



Itachi has a ton of Jutsu, including Genjutsu. You may as well ask why he didn't use any of his other abilities on Naruto. The most evident reason is that Kabuto was controlling his attacks before he broke free from the Edo Tensei (and Itachi wasn't exactly fighting Naruto for a very long time before that happened, so it's not like there was time to brandish his full arsenal).



> Why didn't he use it against Kabuto when Sharingan genjutsu was taken off the table?



Because Kabuto's eyes were protected. It wouldn't matter where the Genjutsu was cast from.



> Why didn't he use it to try to delay Sasuke?



When did Itachi ever need to delay Sasuke?



> The answer is, it is only useful for low level opponents. Not high level ones.



That's your own speculation, not "the answer."

The answer is Itachi has a lot of Jutsu he didn't use at any given point in the manga and the same is true for nearly every other character. The reasons aren't explicitly clear, but when you stop and think about the demands placed on the author, who is just trying to tell a fucking story, it's at least understandable why every single fight doesn't turn into a stonewalling rotation of every bloody Jutsu in a ninja's moveset--it isn't practical, for one thing.

If you're looking for an in-universe explanation, there probably isn't one. And by that I mean, there really isn't one unless and until Kishimoto decides he wants to highlight it and talk about it, which probably isn't going to happen.



> Nagato himself admited the only reason why they won was because Jiraiya didn't know the secret. If he did, he could have caught all six bodies in Gamarinsho and defeated them like he did with the three before.



And if Nagato had known about Gamarinshou in advance and had they not been fighting in his village, he could've just flattened Jiraiya and everything else on the map with one move.



> What's stopping Jiraiya from trapping Kisame in Gamashiburi (which he's shown he's unable to escape it) and then playing cat and mouse with Itachi until he channels enough chakra enough to summon Fukasaku and Shima for his Sage Mode?



For one thing, Kisame would have no problem escaping Gamaguchi Shibari; he can flood it open with one of his torrential lake-spits.

For another, Jiraiya can't play cat and mouse with Itachi because Itachi is the cat and Jiraiya is the mouse and Itachi will be on top of him instantly with a gross surplus of force.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Nov 16, 2014)

What does "3T" mean?



Itachі said:


> Fair enough, we still don't know the range of his Genjutsu though.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Each and every time Itachi's casted his genjutsu, its been short ranged. Never long. Thus he can't do it from long range.



We did see him use it from a significant distance once, albeit against a civilian.  Shortly before his pre-timeskip encounter with Sasuke, he used genjutsu to get some random chick to hit on Jiraiya.  IIRC, you see her look up at two cloaked figures standing on a bridge some distance away.  It's certainly not fifty meters, but it's not like he walked right up to her either.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> What does "3T" mean?



3 Tomoe.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Each and every time Itachi's casted his genjutsu, its been short ranged. Never long. Thus he can't do it from long range.



Each time Itachi's used it the opponent has always been in short range.



> I'd like some evidence why he'd even use it in the first place against Jiraiya. The only reason why it worked against Naruto was due to his inexperience and poor chakra control. That's it. Unless its used against higher level opponents, I think its uses are limited. A educuated hypothesis.



He knows that Jiraiya's a Sannin. He's going to use something like that because he knows that his own Chakra pool isn't massive and he can't last forever against an opponent that has massive hype like that.

You keep saying that it's because Naruto had poor Chakra control but you've never said why Kage level opponents would be able to immediately realise that it's a Genjutsu. You haven't provided any evidence yet still spout the same thing. A low level Jutsu can still be effective against a worthy opponent. 



> Nagato was going in for the kill for the entire fight, how _wasn't_ he serious?
> 
> Ukataka isn't gonna work. Its uses are limited. If it was such a trump card, Itachi would have used it more than once.



Because he could easily have killed Jiraiya if he assembled the paths in one place but he didn't. 

I'm saying that in this situation it's his trump card, why would Itachi use Finger Genjutsu when he has his MS arsenal? Still, against Naruto and Bee he was being controlled by Kabuto and against Kabuto Finger Genjutsu wouldn't work.


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## Gibbs (Nov 16, 2014)

Explain to me why Itachi had to resort t MS techniques to escape Toad's stomach?  If he's so powerful like you make him out to be, he should have been able to cut through it like butter.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Explain to me why Itachi had to resort t MS techniques to escape Toad's stomach?  If he's so powerful like you make him out to be, he should have been able to cut through it like butter.



When the fuck did anybody say that he could? How is Genjutsu prowess comparable to raw power? You fail to differentiate different aspects of a character and its strength.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Each time Itachi's used it the opponent has always been in short range.


And those are the only feats he has. The only Sharingan user who has shwon long range genjutsu is Shisui.




> He knows that Jiraiya's a Sannin. He's going to use something like that because he knows that his own Chakra pool isn't massive and he can't last forever against an opponent that has massive hype like that.


Which is why I think he'd stick to something else.


> You keep saying that it's because Naruto had poor Chakra control but you've never said why Kage level opponents would be able to immediately realise that it's a Genjutsu. You haven't provided any evidence yet still spout the same thing. A low level Jutsu can still be effective against a worthy opponent.


Kage-level opponents have the experience and the chakra control needed to break Utakata. Naruto was only caught since, at the time, _he sucked at both areas._ And even then, he RESISTED. Even Itachi was impressed he could resist the sleep command.

I'm not seeing how this genjutsu is a game changer against anyone except inexperienced shinobi in the area of genjutsu.


> Because he could easily have killed Jiraiya if he assembled the paths in one place but he didn't.


But if he did that, he'd have been vulnerable to Gamarinsho. Jiraiya's power in Sage Mode was enough to give three bodies trouble, all six would have been pressured long enough.


> I'm saying that in this situation it's his trump card, why would Itachi use Finger Genjutsu when he has his MS arsenal? Still, against Naruto and Bee he was being controlled by Kabuto and against Kabuto Finger Genjutsu wouldn't work.


Utakata would have been more useful than the MS because Kabuto had taken Tsukuyomi and Genjutsu: Sharingan off the table when they fought. Itachi never tried since unlike Naruto, Kabuto could see through it and break it.



Daenerys Stormborn said:


> What does "3T" mean?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was his long distance control in action. Itachi genjutsued her with the command at short range to get Jiraiya's attention and lure him away.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Explain to me why Itachi had to resort t MS techniques to escape Toad's stomach?  If he's so powerful like you make him out to be, he should have been able to cut through it like butter.



That's kind of an irrelevant demand.

Minato couldn't do shit to the lining of the frog stomach yet nobody doubts he's Jiraiya's better. Certain ninja are better at countering certain Jutsu than others; Gamaguchi Shibari just happened to be a Jutsu that Itachi needed the MS to counter (and it's worth pointing out that Jiraiya basically got a free shot while Itachi and Kisame had their backs turned).


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And those are the only feats he has. The only Sharingan user who has shwon long range genjutsu is Shisui.



It doesn't mean that he can't do it though, like you said in your previous post. We can't assume that he can but we can't assume that he can't either.



> Which is why I think he'd stick to something else.



What else has he got that could disable one such as Jiraiya so quickly? His Jutsu are inferior to Jiraiya's. Itachi could outsmart him with Bunshin but that's the only thing I'd give him besides Finger Genjutsu.



> Kage-level opponents have the experience and the chakra control needed to break Utakata. Naruto was only caught since, at the time, _he sucked at both areas._ And even then, he RESISTED. Even Itachi was impressed he could resist the sleep command.
> 
> I'm not seeing how this genjutsu is a game changer against anyone except inexperienced shinobi in the area of genjutsu.



You still haven't provided evidence that Jiraiya would immediately know that it's a Genjutsu. All you do is say that he's a Kage level Shinobi and that he's too smart for it. 



> But if he did that, he'd have been vulnerable to Gamarinsho. Jiraiya's power in Sage Mode was enough to give three bodies trouble, all six would have been pressured long enough.
> 
> Utakata would have been more useful than the MS because Kabuto had taken Tsukuyomi and Genjutsu: Sharingan off the table when they fought. Itachi never tried since unlike Naruto, Kabuto could see through it and break it.



Against all six paths Jiraiya would definitely not have been able to go into Sage Mode.

Finger Genjutsu still requires eye contact and thus is _visual_ Genjutsu. It would not work against Kabuto.


----------



## Bloo (Nov 16, 2014)

I don't want to get wrapped up in this controversial debate, but I will say that translation is a horrible contention and the VizMedia translation doesn't support the notion of that exchange being about Jiraiya. It's fine to have your opinion on who would win this, but avoid using that dialogue exchange as your "proof" that Jiraiya wins this.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachі said:


> It doesn't mean that he can't do it though, like you said in your previous post. We can't assume that he can but we can't assume that he can't either.


I think he can't do it since he hasn't shown the ability to. Itachi had laid out his genjutsu skillset quite clearly, if he could cast long range why didn't Kishimoto show it?




> What else has he got that could disable one such as Jiraiya so quickly? His Jutsu are inferior to Jiraiya's. Itachi could outsmart him with Bunshin but that's the only thing I'd give him besides Finger Genjutsu.


Bushin I think would be more effective. Even though his are inferior to Jiraiya's, Bushins are good distractions.




> You still haven't provided evidence that Jiraiya would immediately know that it's a Genjutsu. All you do is say that he's a Kage level Shinobi and that he's too smart for it.


Since its an educated hypothesis. Jiraiya's already shown he can identify Itachi's genjutsu and break it canonically, why would Ukataka be any different?




> Against all six paths Jiraiya would definitely not have been able to go into Sage Mode.


In the city? He would have been able to, lots of hiding spaces and delay tactics Jiraiya could use.


> Finger Genjutsu still requires eye contact and thus is _visual_ Genjutsu. It would not work against Kabuto.


Utakata actually doesn't require Eye Contact. All the user has to do is point at the target and its casted.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I don't want to get wrapped up in this controversial debate, but I will say that translation is a horrible contention and the VizMedia translation doesn't support the notion of that exchange being about Jiraiya. It's fine to have your opinion on who would win this, but avoid using that dialogue exchange as your "proof" that Jiraiya wins this.



Do you know what's actually said then?


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Minato would have Teleported out of it via FTG. He has an answer to it, Base (3-tomoe) Itachi has none.



Hiraishin out of the battlefield is technically BFR which constitutes a loss by voluntary retreat/ringout. 

Nice try though.



> GG Jiraya wins. Itachi loses.
> Go home Itachi Fanboys.



If we're playing that game then Itachi reverse-summons himself to the Crow Kingdom.

Good fucking game.


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## Gibbs (Nov 16, 2014)

there is no such thing as the crow kingdom. Don't make up lies Nikushimi


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> there is no such thing as the crow kingdom. Don't make up lies Nikushimi



It's the place where Itachi trained to master his Crow Sage Mode.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Been arguing since page 2 and still no reason why Jiraiya can break Itachi's Genjutsu without being killed. 



Nikushimi said:


> It's the place where Itachi trained to master his Crow Sage Mode.



Oh lord. 



The Phoenix King said:


> And here is the point that after every argument you made has been dissected and defeated, you resort to trolling and making up lies.
> 
> Mods, you can lock this one up. The pro-Itachi team has lost.



Or maybe because SuperSaiyaMan hasn't replied to him yet..


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I don't want to get wrapped up in this controversial debate, but I will say that translation is a horrible contention and the VizMedia translation doesn't support the notion of that exchange being about Jiraiya. It's fine to have your opinion on who would win this, but avoid using that dialogue exchange as your "proof" that Jiraiya wins this.


Every translator who has ever looked at it (myself included), and all the japanese readers say it's about Jiraiya. I don't see what more people should need.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> And here is the point that after every argument you made has been dissected and defeated, you resort to trolling and making up lies.
> 
> Mods, you can lock this one up. The pro-Itachi team has lost.



I already explained why Jiraiya loses. There are only so many words I can use to describe the act of hypnotizing someone and cutting their hands off.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

Phoenix King, you haven't even provided a half decent argument of why Jiraiya wins, you can't talk. You've pretty much only listed the techniques he can use, you haven't compared him with Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> You need to take a step or two back & hop off Niku's dick Itachi.



I'm on Itachi's dick, yet Itachi is on my dick.

It's a paradox! ck



> I've provided multiple sources throughout the thread & provided multiple strategies against a 3 -tomoe Itachi that result in his defeat. All are feasible & highly likely for an In Character Jiraiya to do,



In-character Jiraiya poses, falls on his face, and gets bodied.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> You need to take a step or two back & hop off Niku's dick Itachi. I've provided multiple sources throughout the thread & provided multiple strategies against a 3 -tomoe Itachi that result in his defeat. All are feasible & highly likely for an In Character Jiraiya to do,



I'm not on Nikushimi's dick, I disagree with him on this match-up.

Half of the shit you posted was irrelevant and blatantly untrue, like that Jiraiya hype.  You've posted techniques that will work against Itachi but you haven't said why Itachi won't catch Jiraiya in a Genjutsu and kill him.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2014)

Itachi would just curve kunai into Jiraiya's eyeballs from his blind spots, then combo the shit out of him with KCM Naruto-level Taijutsu.


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## Gibbs (Nov 16, 2014)

You cannot use Edo Itachi's taijutsu feats as something alive Itachi would be able to do no sweat.


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## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

No kidding ^^

This is living Itachi. We are not giving him edo feats


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2014)

What difference would that make when the only advantage Edo Itachi has is replenishing Chakra and an immortal body? Both of which had no effect in his bout against Naruto, since he used Taijutsu and wasn't hit.


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## SSMG (Nov 17, 2014)

Well it could count for a 100% fresh, alive Itachi since if Itachi was healthy it'd be like he's an Edo just minus the regen and limitless chakra.. But the one ITT wasn't stated to be healthy Itachi so it wouldn't count for this topic.. If that makes sense.


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## Hachibi (Nov 17, 2014)

Empathy said:


> [_Link_]
> 
> [_Link_]
> 
> Not to mention an easily employable partner method when Jiraiya's in such a close proximity to them. Either of those techniques are game-enders here, and Itachi's genjutsu is not necessarily one.



The I-summon-a-frog-form-above jutsu isn't ending Itachi, who was able to fight Hebi Sauce in CQC. Frog Stomach isn't going to be a factor at 50 meters



> Post an example of Itachi possessing one large enough and displaying capability of something so unsubstantiated.







> [_Link_]



Technique won't be used since Itachi will genjutsu the frog. And I doubt Jiraiya can free them while they're attacking him.



> _Karasu Bunshin_ possess less chakra than _Kage Bunshin_, and are therefore weaker. It would require more than one _Karasu Bunshin_ to equal one _Kage Bunshin_, not to mention the absurd stamina disparity that Jiraiya possess over Itachi, who can't make as many bunshin. I don't even understand the asinine logic of clones somehow negating other clones.



They beat one of KB's main advantage, which is the number.


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## JuicyG (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachі said:


> What difference would that make when the only advantage Edo Itachi has is replenishing Chakra and an immortal body? Both of which had no effect in his bout against Naruto, since he used Taijutsu and wasn't hit.




We can assume Edo Itachi would fight different than his Edo self simply because he knew he could regenerate and had limitless chakra, meaning his strategies wouldnt be the same...

Either way, focus on living Itachi and what he has shown


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 17, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> We can assume Edo Itachi would fight different than his Edo self simply because he knew he could regenerate and had limitless chakra, meaning his strategies wouldnt be the same...
> 
> Either way, focus on living Itachi and what he has shown



That's a nonsensical argument 


Itachi never got hit in his exchange with naruto or bee so the regeneration point is moot


In regards to taijustu we can bring up anything we want because obviously it's not something that is chakra taxing and alive itachi can obviously punch and kick.


You may use this argument if  someone said itachi will spam Amaterasu and susano

But living itachi can replicate any taijustu  feats edo itachi has done.


It's like me saying alive minato can't warp the jubbi's bijudama shyt makes no sense.





As for the thread, Jiraiya having only uchiha rep knowledge is not enough, he knew itachi was a uchiha in the manga and made no attempts to block Los or to avoid eye contact.


His frogs can also be genjutsued and used against him, and itachi already displayed the ability to immobilize summons with kunai.


I'm giving it to itachi high difficulty.




As for ppl saying 3t itachi is not kage level read the manga

He beat orochimaru.

He beat deidara

And kakashi felt he needed naruto and Sakura as back up against shouted itachi, a 30% clone with no ms, itachi without ms is still kage level.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Your making a-lot of beneficial assumptions for Itachi. Itachi might starts with a Genjutsu, but than again he might start with basic Ninjutsu or Taijutsu, if he does the latter it gives Jiraiya enough time to pull out his own Jutsu or Toads. And assuming Itachi does start with Genjutsu, it depends how he uses that Genjutsu. If he uses finger Genjutsu,  I don't see that defeating a legendary-sannin. If he uses Three Tome illusion Genjutsu, it will give him an opening but it will still enable Jiraiya to use his own Jutsu or summonings, which could still save him from Itachi's assaults despite the illusion being in place. If he uses binding Genjutsu to cut off Jiraiya's hand, Jiraiya would still win, as he could still summon and use a variety of Jutsu like Rasengan.
> 
> Thee only scenario where Jiraiya would loose instantly to Genjutsu is if Itachi used binding Genjutsu and than went right for Jiriaya's neck, which I doubt is every time (or even most times) if we play the battle out 100 times. And this all works on the assumption that Jiraiya would not avoid eye-contact, against a famous Uchiha w/o any Toads/Bushin/Etc.. on the battlefield, which i'm not sure of to begin with.
> 
> ...



Then why was Kabuto owning sasuke in the genjutsu but not Itachi ? 

Did Itachi make Kabuto weaker in the genjutsu ? If you have any evidence regarding this, please provide some.

Otherwise, you just conceded the argument.


Canon fact : Perfect Sage Kabuto can execute jutsus faster than sasuke can. Itachi can execute jutsus faster than Kabuto can, to the extend that Kabuto can't even being to launch his.

Jiraiya gets absolutuely crushed.



The Phoenix King said:


> How is Itachi getting past Needle Jizo?



Through his massively superior speed what else ?


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

How in Gods name will Ma & Pa get genjutsu'd when they themselves are Senjutsu genjutsu specialists?


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why was Kabuto owning sasuke in the genjutsu but not Itachi ?
> 
> Did Itachi make Kabuto weaker in the genjutsu ? If you have any evidence regarding this, please provide some.
> 
> ...


Because Sasuke wasn't controlling the Genjutsu lol. Itachi took control over what was going on and that's when he started owning buto.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because Sasuke wasn't controlling the Genjutsu lol. Itachi took control over what was going on and that's when he started owning buto.



Itachi wasn't actively controlling Koto, as Kabuto was stuck in the loop for a while after Itachi was gone from this world.

Also if Itachi can control everything, why would he let Kabuto own Sasuke ? And how do you know Itachi was controlling the genjutsu in the first place ? If Itachi could make an artificial experience out of nothing, why would he use the recorded footage ? (Also Kabuto never noted that there was anything odd about his or Itachi's abilities, he didn't even realize was caught by a genjutsu in the first place).

Anyways, all in all, there is absolutely no evidence that Itachi either made himself stronger, or Kabuto weaker(there is actually no evidence of this in any kind of genjutsu). 

Itachi's handseal and jutsu execution speed had immense hype, as well as his insight with the sharingan, so there isn't a contradiction there. It is more like the justification of that hype.

But of course I'm willing to change my mind if you have a case to prove that what Itachi pulled in the genjutsu is contradictory to his other feats.



The Phoenix King said:


> How in Gods name will Ma & Pa get genjutsu'd when they themselves are Senjutsu genjutsu specialists?



Itachi is a genjutsu specialist too, and he got genjutsu'd by Kurenai and Kabuto.
That is like saying a taijutsu master is immune to taijutsu. No, he just has better odds of dealing with it.


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi wasn't actively controlling Koto, as Kabuto was stuck in the loop for a while after Itachi was gone from this world.
> 
> Also if Itachi can control everything, why would he let Kabuto own Sasuke ? And how do you know Itachi was controlling the genjutsu in the first place ? If Itachi could make an artificial experience out of nothing, why would he use the recorded footage ? (Also Kabuto never noted that there was anything odd about his or Itachi's abilities, he didn't even realize was caught by a genjutsu in the first place).
> 
> ...


Itachi wasn't always controlling the Genjutsu, but he took control at a certain point to deliver his TNJ messaged to Kabuto. 

Why would Itachi care if Kabuto was owning an Illusion of Sasuke, he would give no shits about that. He wanted to overwhelm Kabuto in this illusion himself to demonstrate clearly his message to Kabuto about changing his ways and that's what he did. 

The only thing that is recorded is the two spots which time is looped to. The fact that events changed demonstrates that the time inbetween does not have to remain exactly the same and can be altered.

As for evidence why Itachi couldn't do this stuff in the real world, the evidence is obvious. Illusion Itachi overcomes Kabuto's Suiton with his suiton, in what universe is a Senjutsu empowered Suiton loosing to Itachi's suiton, heck based on the nature of counter balancing even Base Kabuto should have won that exchange due to being able to pump more chakra into his Suiton than Itachi can.

And if you want to use the Genjutsu as an accurate depiction of things Itachi was getting owned left and right anyway, even with Sasuke's back up. Kabuto was biting his arm off  and killing his ass over and over again.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Itachi wasn't always controlling the Genjutsu, but he took control at a certain point to deliver his TNJ messaged to Kabuto.
> 
> Why would Itachi care if Kabuto was owning an Illusion of Sasuke, he would give no shits about that. He wanted to overwhelm Kabuto in this illusion himself to demonstrate clearly his message to Kabuto about changing his ways and that's what he did.
> 
> ...



I'll answer to this with more detail but you got one thing wrong.

Itachi doesn't overwhelm Kabuto's suiton. He shoots before Kabuto can shoot his. They don't clash jutsu.


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Izanami dude, that's all Izanami, which is an MS genjutsu, which is restricted here... I don't even know why you keep debating using MS techniques.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Izanami dude, that's all Izanami, which is an MS genjutsu, which is restricted here... I don't even know why you keep debating using MS techniques.



Izanami isn't a MS genjutsu.

Also there is no evidence that the capabilities of shinobi are altered in the genjutsu.

and I'll neg you for not knowing shit :ignoramus


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Could you show me Itachi using Suitons outside of when he is using Genjutsu? Otherwise it is all an illusion. It would be the same as if Might Guy was using Susano'O & Jinton.

oh. and thanks for the weak neg :ignoramus


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fukasaku can extend from Jiraiya's body
> 
> I wish I could neg you again
> 
> Go home newbie, this place is too tough for you.


That is Kakashi using the Suiton. Try again.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> That is Kakashi using the Suiton. Try again.



I am hoping you are trolling @ this point. I refuse to acknowledge that someone actually can't comprehend such a simple part.


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Linking to the Wiki now? 
Please provide the scans.


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

I could set up a genjutsu and have Rock Lee use Futon Rasenshuriken. Does that mean he can use it in real life? NOPE


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Izanami dude, that's all Izanami, which is an MS genjutsu, which is restricted here... I don't even know why you keep debating using MS techniques.





The Phoenix King said:


> That is Kakashi using the Suiton. Try again.





The Phoenix King said:


> Linking to the Wiki now?
> Please provide the scans.



Oh fucking lord, I sincerely hope that you're trolling. 

- Izanami isn't a MS Jutsu

- Kakashi used a Suiton barrier to protect himself against Itachi's Suiton: Suigadan.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

Last time I checked Itachi haters were saying that Amaterasu is shit tier because it couldn't burn through Karin's clothes. Surely an explosive kunai would get Itachi out of the Frog's Stomach since Amaterasu was able to, right? Doesn't really matter though when Jiraiya has to be in close range to use it and he pretty much gets murdered if he gets close to Itachi. 

Jiraiya has no offensive or defensive genjutsu feats that hold any value in this match up at all while Itachi is the best Genjutsu user in the series. Really makes me wonder how exactly Jiraiya is dealing with Itachi's Genjutsu. Jiraiya has not shown cqc skills that would allow him to fight without looking Itachi in the eyes like Guy does nor has he raw speed like Minato to avoid eye contact. 

Meanwhile Jiraiya's Ninjutsu (which is the only aspect Jiraiya trumps Itachi at) gets countered by Itachi with ease. Katon and Doton can simply be dodged or countered and summons mind controlled.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Jiraiya has no offensive or defensive genjutsu feats that hold any value in this match up at all while Itachi is the best Genjutsu user in the series. Really makes me wonder how exactly Jiraiya is dealing with Itachi's Genjutsu. Jiraiya has not shown cqc skills that would allow him to fight without looking Itachi in the eyes like Guy does nor has he raw speed like Minato to avoid eye contact.



Jiraiya can still summon Ma and Pa and initiate Frog Song.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

Jiraiya only summons the two when he uses Sage Mode.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Jiraiya only summons the two when he uses Sage Mode.



Mindset says "Can be OOC", so there's still a chance. Though I doubt he'd bring out those two when the only knowledge he has is that Itachi's an Uchiha. He's not going to bring out the big guns before he gets caught in Itachi's Genjutsu, imo. Basically, Jiraiya's not going to be so cautious of a random Uchiha whereas Itachi's going to be careful because of Sannin hype.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

Didn't notice that. 

Anyways neither of the frogs have shown any Genjutsu defense. And too many people seem to believe just because you are familiar with Genjutsu automatically makes you immune to it. The beauty of high level Genjutsu is that it is subtle and you notice the illusion when it's too late. We saw what happened to Danzo when he didn't notice Sasuke's normal Sharingan genjutsu, it cost him his life.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Didn't notice that.
> 
> Anyways neither of the frogs have shown any Genjutsu defense. And too many people seem to believe just because you are familiar with Genjutsu automatically makes you immune to it. The beauty of high level Genjutsu is that it is subtle and you notice the illusion when it's too late. We saw what happened to Danzo when he didn't notice Sasuke's normal Sharingan genjutsu, it cost him his life.



Yes, Kurenai used Genjutsu only and her proficiency was good enough for her to be promoted to Jonin level. Yet, she still got defeated by Itachi. Maybe that's because he used Sharingan Genjutsu, we don't know how it compares to Finger Genjutsu.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

That is true, but Itachi isn't restricted just to finger genjutsu, is he?

Finger genjutsu at the very least creates a distraction that Itachi can exploit and kill defenseless Jiraiya.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

saikyou said:


> That is true, but Itachi isn't restricted just to finger genjutsu, is he?
> 
> Finger genjutsu at the very least creates a distraction that Itachi can exploit and kill defenseless Jiraiya.



Mhm, but Finger Genjutsu is his best bet. Jiraiya's not stupid, against an Uchiha he's going to try and look out for Sharingan Genjutsu. Although he could get caught in it, I think Utakata gives Itachi a higher chance of survival.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

Jiraiya doesn't have what it takes to fight an Uchiha of Itachi's caliber while gimping his eye sight.

Jiraiya focusing on Itachi's legs/torso makes it easy as hell for Itachi to clone feint and flank from behind.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Jiraiya doesn't have what it takes to fight an Uchiha of Itachi's caliber while gimping his eye sight.
> 
> Jiraiya focusing on Itachi's legs/torso makes it easy as hell for Itachi to clone feint and flank from behind.



I agree but I still think that Jiraiya is fairly capable. He doesn't use Bunshin much but he does have them, as well as toad summons at his disposal. Even 1 more distraction is going to make it easier for Jiraiya to attack Itachi.

Itachi's Base Ninjutsu pales in comparison to Jiraiya's but I believe that he has more finesse, is more adept with Bunshin trickery and Genjutsu timing.


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## Jagger (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachi used Suiton in that page. What do you think Kakashi did? Utilize a Suiton jutsu to attack himself? 

Not to mention the Databook confirmed Itachi is capable of utilizing said element, so it's clear he did.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachi's way superior speed and Sharingan precog makes it really hard for Jiraiya to create a distraction and gain advantage. Itachi is always one step ahead due to the Sharingan.

Summoning a boss toad is a terrible move for Jiraiya imo since Itachi can just take control of it.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Itachi's way superior speed and Sharingan precog makes it really hard for Jiraiya to create a distraction and gain advantage. Itachi is always one step ahead due to the Sharingan.
> 
> Summoning a boss toad is a terrible move for Jiraiya imo since Itachi can just take control of it.



Itachi has a 5 in speed and Jiraiya has a 4.5, though I wouldn't take the Databook stats all too seriously tbh. I'd say that he's faster, yes. 

Jiraiya could always desummon the toad.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachi's a lot faster tbh. Putting pressure on Bee and such. Oro and Kurenai both have 5 in Genjutsu and we know how they compare to Itachi. DB stats are mostly cancer.


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## Jagger (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Jiraiya could always desummon the toad.


Yes, but it takes more chakra from Jiraiya to summon and desummon it everytime Itachi takes control of it.

It's an option Jiraiya cannot use unless it's used as a distraction method.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Yes, but it takes more chakra from Jiraiya to summon and desummon it everytime Itachi takes control of it.
> 
> It's an option Jiraiya cannot use unless it's used as a distraction method.



I doubt that Jiraiya's going to summon a toad after the first one he summons gets caught in a Genjutsu, he's not going to make that mistake.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

i.e summons won't do any good for Jiraiya.


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Jiraiya summons Food cart destroyer, Itachi dodges, Jiraiya give itachi 2 rasengans to the face!


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Jiraiya summons Food cart destroyer, Itachi dodges, Jiraiya give itachi 2 rasengans to the face!



Why would Jiraiya use Yatai Kuzushi for one human sized opponent?

Itachi could easily dodge and Jiraiya's 2 Rasengans that he's supposedly going to use aren't going to hit Itachi.


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## Jagger (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachі said:


> I doubt that Jiraiya's going to summon a toad after the first one he summons gets caught in a Genjutsu, he's not going to make that mistake.


Unless he uses him in a specific situation such as a distraction, as I already mentioned before, no, he's not going to repeat said mistake. 

Either way, it's more of a burden.


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Food cart destroyer  would create a lot of dust when it hits the ground, obstructing the line of sight for Itachi, Jiraiya could find him & KO him.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Unless he uses him in a specific situation such as a distraction, as I already mentioned before, no, he's not going to repeat said mistake.
> 
> Either way, it's more of a burden.



Agreed.



The Phoenix King said:


> Food cart destroyer  would create a lot of dust when it hits the ground, obstructing the line of sight for Itachi, Jiraiya could find him & KO him.



Oh, please tell me how Jiraiya would be able to see Itachi.


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, please tell me how Jiraiya would be able to see Itachi.



Link removed


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Link removed



Wait, so you're telling me that after the toad falls, Jiraiya can stay still for a second or two and use the barrier, waiting for it to expand before the dust has a chance to settle?

Also, the barrier apparently seems to only detect movement. But Itachi's not going to stay still, most likely.

[sp][/sp]


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachi not staying still, means that he'll be sensed by that barrier.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Itachi not staying still, means that he'll be sensed by that barrier.



You completely avoided my other point, well done.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Linking to the Wiki now?
> Please provide the scans.



I had to because apparently you can't comprehend manga .

What are you saying ? Kakashi tried to hit himself ?



The Phoenix King said:


> I could set up a genjutsu and have Rock Lee use Futon Rasenshuriken. Does that mean he can use it in real life? NOPE



When did something like that ever happen in the manga ?


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Nov 17, 2014)

They can both probably oneshot eachother. 50/50


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Jiraiya can trap Itachi in the toad gourd and then leave him in there.
Link removed


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I had to because apparently you can't comprehend manga .
> 
> What are you saying ? Kakashi tried to hit himself ?
> 
> ...


Kakashi used the water wall to protect himself.

I'm just using something like that as an example. In genjutsu anything can happen.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Kakashi used the water wall to protect himself.



Lord, all you have to do is acknowledge that Itachi can use Suiton. He was clearly defending himself from Itachi's Suiton, you don't have to dodge points all the time..



The Phoenix King said:


> Jiraiya can trap Itachi in the toad gourd and then leave him in there.
> Link removed



Itachi's too fast to get caught in a Jutsu like that.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

I like how TPK thinks Jiraiya is somehow pulling shit quicker than Itachi who has way faster movement and hand seal speed and Sharingan precog.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Kakashi used the water wall to protect himself.



The jutsu Itachi used isn't waterwall. Those drills coming out of the water is the jutsu Itachi used, it is named water fang bullet. It is in the second databook, thats where the wiki got its information from.




I am shocked by your lack of reading comprehension.  



> I'm just using something like that as an example. In genjutsu anything can happen.



Ok, and I am asking when did someone gained imaginary abilities in genjutsu when fighting another person ? Or made his opponent magically weaker ?

Because I am pretty sure you have evidence to make such a bold claim.


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## Itachі (Nov 17, 2014)

I already told Phoenix King that Itachi used a Suiton, pretty sure that he's just avoiding it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachі said:


> I already told Phoenix King that Itachi used a Suiton, pretty sure that he's just avoiding it.



He can't avoid it anymore :ignoramus

I just want him to stop posting. Lets see how many ass whoopings will be required to manage that 


edit :

@ Turrin, I am waiting for you reply.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> That is Kakashi using the Suiton. Try again.



No, that was legitimately Itachi using the suiton. The databook notes that it's Itachi's jutsu, you can find the quotes anywhere on the site, and it's very clear that Itachi is the one attacking with the water drills because Kakashi is seen clearly retreating and defending with a small suijinheki around himself.

Hell, he even mentions a page later that Itachi was clever to use a shuriken to divert his attention then attack with a suiton immediately after, or something to that effect.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 17, 2014)

Keep it civil in here as well. If I have to delete any more posts the next time I come here, I'll just lock the thread and start handing out bans. You've all been warned.


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## Bloo (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Do you know what's actually said then?


I own the official copy, when I get back to my place I will post a scan or direct quotes.



Turrin said:


> Every translator who has ever looked at it (myself included), and all the japanese readers say it's about Jiraiya. I don't see what more people should need.


That's a lie. We've had this discussion and we have talked about how translators would debate on this topic. And I will place the VizMedia translation as much more credible than online translators. The official translation shows Itachi and Kisame discussing two different people, the second being Jiraiya, the first being unnamed (but we can infer that it was Naruto, seeing as how Jiraiya is brought up as "his protector").


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## Icegaze (Nov 17, 2014)

Jiraiya has his sensing barrier genjutsu won't help much frankly 
Too much bias in all posts 
Honestly the way I see it is without MS jiraiya edges out while MS vs SM itachi edges out 

Jiraiya may not be able to fight blind thanks to his barrier. No reason to think he can't 
If we take genjutsu out of the mix I think we can all agree even itachi fans myself included that jiraiya is superior 

Btw just ask anyone if you doubt my fandom


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

How exactly does motion detection barrier counter Genjutsu... ? And Jiraiya can't fight at all while being blind.


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## Icegaze (Nov 17, 2014)

It blocks genjutsu because jiraiya can either fight with his eyes closed no reason to think he can't when he has a barrier telling him where the enemy is 
Or if his eyes are deceived by genjutsu the barrier will still pick itachi movement this only applies of you think he can't fight with his eyes closed 

The barrier will pick out itachi motion jiraiya eyes being deceived won't help itachi 
This applies to distraction type genjutsu 
Now the paralysis type is less effective since the victim knows he is in genjutsu


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## JuicyG (Nov 17, 2014)

The fight is obviously very very close. Jiraiya and Itachi (Living) in my opinion have been portrayed as near equals since they first met in part 1. Itachi was quick to dispatch Kakashi and the others when they meet in Part 1, I don't see why Itachi just didn't do the same with Jiraiya if it was that simple. Itachi probably knew that a fight with Jiraiya would be extremely difficult, thus avoided the situation altogether. Jiraiya is one of the most diverse shinobis in the world when just using his base skills. And I'm sure you all can agree Jiraiya>Orochimaru (Minus ET).

That being said, this fight can go a number of ways with Itachi using clone fients, and jiraiya using Yomi Numa, Itachi going for genjutsu and Jiraiya using toad techs.

Personally I think Jiraiya has more way to defeat Itachi than Itachi has to defeat Jiraiya in base forms. And I just can't accept that Jiraiya would lose to a 3T genjutsu considering his immense experience, knowledge and portrayal.


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## Bloo (Nov 17, 2014)

saikyou said:


> How exactly does motion detection barrier counter Genjutsu... ? And Jiraiya can't fight at all while being blind.


Theoretically it could allow him to fight blind. We don't have enough feats to say that's the case, and we don't have enough feats to say that isn't the case. It's kind of up-in-the-air.



JuicyG said:


> I don't see why Itachi just didn't do the same with Jiraiya if it was that simple. Itachi probably knew that a fight with Jiraiya would be extremely difficult, thus avoided the situation altogether. Jiraiya is one of the most diverse shinobis in the world when just using his base skills.


While I agree that this is a very close fight, that's why I try my best to stay out of this debate, this is a useless contention. Itachi didn't dispatch of Jiraiya, or try to, because Kisame was convinced Itachi could easily do so and if Itachi did go through with that, there'd be no logical reason for them not to take Naruto. He fled at that moment because it was a perfect excuse to not capture Naruto for the time being. In the official VizMedia translation, Kisame was confused as to why they even ran away.

Actually, I found it interesting that the VizMedia translation shows a lot of confusion as to why Naruto wasn't captured early on. It made Itachi's role as an anti-villain seem more consistent than the online scans.

I'm not saying anything about who would win (I'd rather not), but that observation doesn't do much given Itachi's true intentions.


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I don't see why Itachi just didn't do the same with Jiraiya if it was that simple.


hm, I don't know, maybe because Itachi didn't want to kill one of Konoha's top shinobi.


> Itachi probably knew that a fight with Jiraiya would be extremely difficult, thus avoided the situation altogether.


Again, why would Itachi want to kill Konoha's strongest protector atm?


> Jiraiya is one of the most diverse shinobis in the world when just using his base skills. And I'm sure you all can agree Jiraiya>Orochimaru (Minus ET).


Jiraiya and Oro are on same level.



> And I just can't accept that Jiraiya would lose to a 3T genjutsu considering his immense experience, knowledge and portrayal.


So basically you have nothing to back up the ridiculous claim that Jiraiya is somehow immune to genjutsu.

Guess who else has immense experience, even bigger knowledge, and portrayal? That guy is Orochimaru. Remember what happened to him? Got paneled by Itachi's genjutsu.



Bloo said:


> Theoretically it could allow him to fight blind. We don't have enough feats to say that's the case, and we don't have enough feats to say that isn't the case. It's kind of up-in-the-air.



Yeah, If Itachi were to remain inside the barrier Jiraiya would be able to tell Itachi's location however he would have no idea what type of jutsu Itachi throw at him etc, no?


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## Bonly (Nov 17, 2014)

With only general knowledge on each other I'd say it could go either way. With his handseal speed, shadow clones, crow clones which cost less chakra and can block LoS for a second or two, and the different ways of genjutsu gives Itachi a good shot but Jiraiya's swamp AoE and speed,clones,toads, blah blah blah gives him a good shot at well and it depends on how they play it though I'd slightly leans towards Itachi


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## JuicyG (Nov 17, 2014)

Just because Orochimaru is one of the sannin, does mean Jiraiya and him are equal. Outside of ET, Jiraiya with all he has, would crush Orochimaru.

Jiraiya's Yomi Numa activation is absurdly quick. I can't see Itachi avoiding it considering its only general knowledge. But then again the same thing can be said for Itachi using genjutsu on Jiraiya.

Its whoever does whatever first. 

This fight can go either way, and it would probably be determined by outside influences if it were to happen in the series, thats just how close this is.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 17, 2014)

I think its general knowledge that Uchihas have some proficiency as a whole in genjutsu, especially for Jiraiya.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> You cannot use Edo Itachi's taijutsu feats as something alive Itachi would be able to do no sweat.



Yes I can, because they are the same person. 



JuicyG said:


> No kidding ^^
> 
> This is living Itachi. We are not giving him edo feats



There is no difference between living Itachi and Edo Itachi. The latter just doesn't die or get tired.


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## trance (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachi canonically soloed Orochimaru with just his standard Sharingan. With just 30% of his strength and again, with just his standard Sharingan, he was outperforming Kakashi, despite the latter's improved prowess over the timeskip. His hand seals are so fast that Kakashi with his Sharingan, whom possessed enough skill with that Itachi even praised him for it, could _barely_ track Itachi's hand movements. His level of genjutsu is so great that he can even control someone from beyond a sensor's range. 

I'm not seeing how Jiraiya doesn't die here.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2014)

Itachi spits a Katon, switches with a clone from behind the fireball, and drops from a blind spot in the sky.

Killer B didn't see it coming. Only KCM Naruto, who could sense evil intent and chakra, was able to react.

If Itachi pulls that little opening stunt, J-man is a goner.


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## trance (Nov 17, 2014)

Not to mention, Bee and KCM Naruto have _much_ quicker reflexes than J-Man.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 18, 2014)

Trance said:


> Itachi canonically soloed Orochimaru with just his standard Sharingan.


You do realize most of the battle was off-screen, Orochimaru wasn't trying to kill him, and that Orochimaru was weakened from body rejection, right Trance? Oh wait you'd probably ignore every factor.


> With just 30% of his strength and again, with just his standard Sharingan, he was outperforming Kakashi, despite the latter's improved prowess over the timeskip.


Actually they were pretty much even, if not Kakashi being a bit superior in that confrontation. At no point did Itachi have the upperhand then.


> His hand seals are so fast that Kakashi with his Sharingan, whom possessed enough skill with that Itachi even praised him for it, could _barely_ track Itachi's hand movements.


Part I, not Part II.


> His level of genjutsu is so great that he can even control someone from beyond a sensor's range.


His casting is short range, his control is long range. You do realize there was a difference right?


> I'm not seeing how Jiraiya doesn't die here.


Other than the fact he can break Itachi's genjutsu, trap him in Gamashiburi or sink him in Yomi Numa, or given the distance just _drop Gamabunta right onto his head?_



Trance said:


> Not to mention, Bee and KCM Naruto have _much_ quicker reflexes than J-Man.


Bee caused Itachi to retreat and KCM Naruto who had just weakened himself to the point where he could no longer use his flash shunshin and was fighting the same level he would, taijutsu wise, in base? Stop making Itachi's feats greater than they actually were.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 18, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize most of the battle was off-screen,



Baseless assumption. There's no indication of any fighting prior or subsequent to what we were shown. No environmental damage, no injuries, no fatigue...nothing.



> Orochimaru wasn't trying to kill him,



Baseless assumption, and also an irrelevant one; Orochimaru didn't have the choice, because Itachi prevented him from doing anything.



> and that Orochimaru was weakened from body rejection, right Trance?



Wrong, because that's also a baseless assumption. Nothing leading into or following that encounter indicates that Orochimaru was suffering body-snatching withdrawal.



> Oh wait you'd probably ignore every factor.



Nobody has any reason to pay attention to factors you made up.

It's out of consideration for the proper information of others that I am even taking the two minutes necessary to call you on your bullshit.



> Other than the fact he can break Itachi's genjutsu,



Jiraiya can't do that. Itachi will just cut his hands off.



> trap him in Gamashiburi



Jiraiya can't do that without an enclosed battlefield and Itachi occupied by someone else. Without the former there's nothing for the stomach flesh to grow from and without the latter there's nothing stopping Itachi from mindfucking Jiraiya and cutting his hands off.



> or sink him in Yomi Numa,



Itachi's perfectly capable of jumping or molding chakra to the bottoms of his feet.



> or given the distance just _drop Gamabunta right onto his head?_



If there's a reason Itachi can't just dodge, I'm not seeing it. Seems like the toad is summoned under the caster in mid-jump.



> Bee caused Itachi to retreat and KCM Naruto who had just weakened himself to the point where he could no longer use his flash shunshin and was fighting the same level he would, taijutsu wise, in base? Stop making Itachi's feats greater than they actually were.



Jiraiya has no such impressive feats. At least Itachi held his own and managed to pull away on his own terms while facing both of them.


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## Icegaze (Nov 18, 2014)

Jiraiya summons human sized frogs sets up barrier 
Those 2 things make genjutsu explotation impossible 
Barrier can be set up first then summons. throw clones into the mix and genjutsu becomes unlikely 
also thanks to retcon those frogs are sage frogs. Not weak !!
As for yomi numa if itachi can defeat the tech by molding chakra into his feet it's a weak tech 
Any reason to believe that would work ?


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2014)

Bloo said:


> That's a lie. We've had this discussion and we have talked about how translators would debate on this topic. And I will place the VizMedia translation as much more credible than online translators. The official translation shows Itachi and Kisame discussing two different people, the second being Jiraiya, the first being unnamed (but we can infer that it was Naruto, seeing as how Jiraiya is brought up as "his protector").


No it's not a lie Bloo. Gottheim was the only one who thought it might have another meaning and debate with Shounensuki on it, but than he took another look at the text and also went to see how the native Japanese speakers interpreted it and they all said it was referring to Jiriaya, so he admitted he was wrong. That's literally the extent of the debate.  And Viz does not contradict this ether, its your interpretation of the Viz that does, which is irrelevant here. The actual Japanese is very clearly talking about Jiraiya, and in-fact from a logical stand-point as well it makes no sense that they'd be referring to Naruto, given how they acted and the actual wording they used.


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## Itachі (Nov 18, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I own the official copy, when I get back to my place I will post a scan or direct quotes.



Alright, thank you.



JuicyG said:


> I don't see why Itachi just didn't do the same with Jiraiya if it was that simple. Itachi probably knew that a fight with Jiraiya would be extremely difficult, thus avoided the situation altogether. Jiraiya is one of the most diverse shinobis in the world when just using his base skills. And I'm sure you all can agree Jiraiya>Orochimaru (Minus ET).



That argument doesn't really make sense since Itachi didn't kill the Konoha Jonin when he could have slaughtered all of them. Also, Kisame and Itachi> Jiraiya.



> And I just can't accept that Jiraiya would lose to a 3T genjutsu considering his immense experience, knowledge and portrayal.



Simple techniques still work, fuck, Naruto won half of his fights via Bunshin feints..

Sasuke also defeated Danzo by using Genjutsu..


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2014)

To once again clear up the Itachi and Kisame dialog. Here's why it wasn't referring to Naruto.

Kisame says, "次元が違う"  

"次元が違う" means "levels differ" he's basically saying his level differs from the subject. It's not a statement that gives leeway for that not being the case. I get that the argument is maybe Kisame was worried Naruto could use Kyuubi's chakra perfectly like B, but the statement is point blank with no maybes or hypotheticals. So it couldn't be Naruto unless he was literally saying his level was certainly lower than a 12 Yo genin. Kisame actions also don't reflect that of a person who is concerned that he's going up against someone whose a completely different "level" from him, as he just confidently knocks at the door and owns Naruto when they "fight".

Like wise Itachi says "良くて相打", which basically means if things go well it will result in a draw. If the best scenario is a draw that does not make sense with the subject being Naruto; as the best case there would be them rape stomping a 12 yo Genin. So again unless Itachi is as week as a Genin, than it doesn't make sense for him to be saying the best case scenario is a draw.

Now when we come to the sentence everyone cites as a topic shift it gets a bit tricky, but here's the deal. First off Kisame doesn't say "him" or anything like that. Literally he says

It's good that we found at the ramen shop, but the babysitter 

Translators add the him/it/etc... in for the sentence to make sense, but it is not present. So when people say there was a topic shift because of the "hims" in the Viz they just aren't present. Rather instead the topic is "the babysitter", indicated by the が particle. Jiraiya is the babysitter, so the topic is Jiriaya.

Now let's also consider for a second, if the one being babysitted was the topic from the previous sentence that was this all powerful individual, why would they then use お守り to describe Jiraiya as a babysitter? I mean that obvious paints the person being babysat as being weak. Furthermore Kisame goes on to describe Jiraiya as their opponent (相手). 

In previous two lines there are also no "hims"  or what have you, rather the person Kisame and Itachi are talking about is only described as their opponent (相手). 

Kisame, "アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」
「次元が違う"

So while this might not transfer over fluently in english, it's more like they start the convo talking about a mysterious opponent that would own Kisame and at least draw Itachi, and than they continue that thought and define who that opponent is (Jiraiya) in the last line. And this is very much consistent because in the first 2 lines they are talking about how much trouble the opponent would be, than in the final line the subject is still the babysitter/opponent who they are still talking about giving them trouble and how to deal with that opponent. 

While on the flip side they treat Naruto as a mere baby that is irrelevant strength wise.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 18, 2014)

Nah, it's complete bull. Gottheim really fucked up, because for anybody that actually bought that volume, the context makes it overwhelmingly obvious that the subject being hyped was Naruto.

> Sasuke hyped the massive power in Naruto
> Itachi hyped the massive power in Naruto

This also follows with Itachi/Kisame being unconcerned by Jiraiya's arrival i.e. Itachi DGAFing all over that chapter and Kisame saying there was no need for him to retreat.



The pages were meant to be seen together. A Kurama jinchuriki beating all of Akatsuki? Maybe. Base Jiraiya? Orochimaru's inferior? HAHAHAHAHAHAH. That's the rational thought process.

This "12 year old Genin" stuff is misdirection, as Sasuke and Itachi were talking about the power and potential Naruto possessed if he, say, went berserk. Not necessarily what he could access easily.​


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2014)

@Strategoob

Did you literally ignore all the things I cited in the actual Japanese that make your interpretation impossible or are you just trolling? 

I mean I don't know how many people who can actually read the actual Japanese text need to tell you that your wrong, for you to accept it. 



> This "12 year old Genin" stuff is pointless misdirection, as Sasuke and Itachi were talking about the power and potential Naruto possessed, not necessarily what he could access on the fly.


Again they could not be talking about a hypothetical because they use definitive statements. Kisame says definitively that the opponent in question is above his "level". Itachi says definitively that even if things go well the best he could do is a draw with the opponent in question. 



> The pages were meant to be seen together. A Kurama jinchuriki beating all of Akatsuki? Maybe. Base Jiraiya? Orochimaru's inferior? HAHAHAHAHAHAH. That's the rational thought process.


Literally no where in the text does it say, all of Akatsuki. It just says "if the number were to increase", i.e. beyond just Itachi himself, things wouldn't change. Most likely Itachi was talking about Kisame, as in Kisame being there wouldn't effect anything. 



> This also follows with Itachi/Kisame being unconcerned by Jiraiya's presence i.e. Kisame saying there was no need to retreat, and Itachi saying Naruto's current level made rushing inconsequential.


Kisame and Itachi literally talk about being concerned by Jiraiya's presence, create a strategy to distract Jiriaya, and flee when Jiriaya starts attacking them. This in contrast to how they treat Naruto, casually knocking on the door and fucking around with him.


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## SSMG (Nov 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes I can, because they are the same person.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no difference between living Itachi and Edo Itachi. The latter just doesn't die or get tired.



The taijutsu feats(well all the edo feats really but you were discussing his taijutsu so) of edo itachi can only be used if itachi in the topic is healthy and fresh.. Because Edo tensei keeps him in a constant state of not being effected by his illness and also 100% chakra.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 18, 2014)

@Turrin

You're not a better translator than viz. At least not to the point where you say their interpretation is patently wrong. The linearity between Sasuke and Itachi hyping Naruto's hidden power is notable, as is Kisame and Itachi's behavior and comments toward Jiraiya's arrival, as is the common sense behind whether Kurama or Jiraiya, based on hype, could take Itachi, Kisame, and more Akatsuki backup. Sannin hype is nowhere near sufficient.​


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## Shanks (Nov 18, 2014)

Itachi high diff.


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> @Turrin
> 
> You're not a better translator than viz. At least not to the point where you say their interpretation is patently wrong. The linearity between Sasuke and Itachi hyping Naruto's hidden power is notable, as is Kisame and Itachi's behavior and comments toward Jiraiya's arrival, as is the common sense behind whether Kurama or Jiraiya, based on hype, could take Itachi, Kisame, and more Akatsuki backup. Sannin hype is nowhere near sufficient.​



I doesn't matter whose a better translator or not, I can read the text  and there are no "hims" in there. And Shounensuki, Gottheim, others, and myself combined > Viz anyway, which makes mistakes.  It's literally many translators that actually bother to explain how the text should be interpreted versus one translation which leaves things open to interpretation a bit (if you think a 12 yo genin can solo kisame easily and injure Itachi), which Itachi-fans unsurprisingly choose to interpret to the benefit of Itachi.

Not that Viz's translations supports your statement anyway. As Kisame and Itachi even in the Viz use deffinatives. "He's in a different league", "At the very least we'd hurt each other badly." So according to your interpretation and the Viz even at best a 12 Yo Genin was far above Kisame and would hurt Itachi badly.

The two scenes have nothing to do with each other, you are forcing the connection

And I just explained the back up thing. What makes less sense is how Itachi would achieve a draw against Kurama, because ether his MS controls Kurama in which case he wins easily due to type advantage or he gets WTFPWN'd; there's no draw scenario there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2014)

Contextually, Jiraiya and Kisame being vary of Jiraiya makes sense somehow. Because @ that point "Legendary Sannin" was the highest level of power. We didn't know about Itachi's power, his encounter with Orochimaru etc. We also didn't know much about Jiraiya.
People started to question that statement after we learned all that.

Kisame thinking "he is on a different level" about a Jinchuuriki he doesn't know doesn't make much sense either, given Kisame's whole skillset allows him to get on his opponents level(considering it is a Jin). And the way Itachi & Kisame approached Naruto, aka casually, without any precaution leaves no doubt that they were talking about Jiraiya.

People know my stance on the whole Itachi vs Jiraiya thing, but I don't find it plausible that Naruto was the subject of the conversation. Akatsuki are ninja gathered specifically for capturing Jins. Them being vary of some 12 year old is kinda far fetched imo.


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## ZE (Nov 18, 2014)

In character, Kisame would diss Itachi if he was told to beware of a 12 years old jinchuuriki, or if Itachi implied that both of them could lose.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 18, 2014)

Jiraiya wins this with ease.

Jiraiya can summon Gamabunta and use a fire oil combination and there is nothing Itachi can do.

Jiraiya certainly knows how to break genjutsu, I don't see how Itachi can get to him before he breaks the genjutsu(given that Orochimaru was weakened to begin with) and can intercept the attack. And even landing genjutsu is highly unlikely.

Then what could Itachi do to Jiraiya, katons would do minimal damage and Jiraiya can dodge grand fireball since it is so large and slow. His hair spikes would give Itachi a hard time.

Swamp of the Underworld is GG. Molding chakra won't work as the swamp drags you down forcibly. Not to mention his should be atleast 1.5times the size of the one used against Orochimaru.

Jiraiya 10/10 no diff. Just has to many options that can put Itachi down.


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## Hexa (Nov 18, 2014)

Even if you say it's Jiraiya that Itachi's talking about, Kisame says he thinks that Itachi is stronger.

NJT


> Kisame: I don't know about me, but I'm pretty sure that you could have handled him.
> ...
> Kisame: Why do we need to retreat? You could ...(*note it would end in *handle them* or something like that)



Gottheim





> Kisame: You should be able to take him down one one way or another
> ...
> Kisame: Why do we need to retreat...?/Someone like you could have...


That said, Kisame clearly knows about Itachi's mangekyou, so it's not really a direct comment here.

Otherwise, Jiraiya certainly knows about Uchiha genjutsu and how to break out of them.  Orochimaru almost undoubtedly knew more about Uchiha genjutsu than Jiraiya and is better at genjutsu overall.


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## Bloo (Nov 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I doesn't matter whose a better translator or not, I can read the text  and there are no "hims" in there. And Shounensuki, Gottheim, others, and myself combined > Viz anyway, which makes mistakes.  It's literally many translators that actually bother to explain how the text should be interpreted versus one translation which leaves things open to interpretation a bit (if you think a 12 yo genin can solo kisame easily and injure Itachi), which Itachi-fans unsurprisingly choose to interpret to the benefit of Itachi.
> 
> Not that Viz's translations supports your statement anyway. As Kisame and Itachi even in the Viz use deffinatives. "He's in a different league", "At the very least we'd hurt each other badly." So according to your interpretation and the Viz even at best a 12 Yo Genin was far above Kisame and would hurt Itachi badly.
> 
> ...


How does the Viz not contradict your odd interpretation? They made the statements of someone being stronger before they switched topics to Jiraiya. Even without that page, Kisame made it blatantly clear that he believed Itachi could take Jiraiya and questioned retreat. There's nothing you can say or do to convince me that you and online individuals are better translators than professionals at VizMedia. That's the entirety of your argument. Whether we believe your translations, or we believe the official one... 

I'm going with the one with a pricetag on it and it would be insensible for anyone to claim that that's bias.

Try rereading it:


*This is about an ambiguous individual (most likely Kurama):*
"... And even if we had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome."
"It was great finding _him_ at the ramen shop..."

*Notice the shift to Jiraiya (this means the individual before isn't Jiraiya):*
"... But, _his_ babysitter was one of the Three Great Shinobi of Konoha Legend."

That's the translation, now from a basic English perspective, your contention/interpretation makes no sense. You can argue with other interpretations, we can't prove which one is the more accurate one, but I trust the VizMedia one more. And that's true for all of _its_ translation (even when it doesn't favor me).

The only comparison that was made between Itachi, Kisame and Jiraiya was on the basis of reputation. Jiraiya absolutely demolishes both Itachi and Kisame in terms of reputation. Fact. Nothing is compared between power and Kisame goes on later to say it made no sense that they retreated because he believed Itachi could have taken him. Given Jiraiya's little knowledge on Uchiha kekkai genkai (namely MS), and the situation, Itachi most likely could have easily dealt with Jiraiya under those circumstances with a quick use of MS tech.


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## Icegaze (Nov 19, 2014)

Toad oil combination for the win for once ichi and I agree 
Base itachi gets horrendously trolled by the Jutsu


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2014)

Bloo said:


> How does the Viz not contradict your odd interpretation?


The Viz doesn't it's your interpretation of the Viz that does.



> They made the statements of someone being stronger before they switched topics to Jiraiya.


But they didn't topic shift, so yeah....



> Even without that page, Kisame made it blatantly clear that he believed Itachi could take Jiraiya and questioned retreat.


Kisame said he was weaker than Jiriaya, but he didn't know about Itachi. Than Itachi clarifies that he could indeed take Jiraiya on, but even if things went well it would probably result in a draw. Than when Kisame mentions why retreat he's just repeating what Itachi said that he could fight Jiraiya, so why run. 



> There's nothing you can say or do to convince me that you and online individuals are better translators than professionals at VizMedia. That's the entirety of your argument. Whether we believe your translations, or we believe the official one...


That seems really silly to me, If Viz media came out and said hey they weren't referring to Jiraiya and here's why, than you'd have a case about it being "us" (as in every online translator to ever give their thoughts on the subject) versus Viz, but that's not the case. Your just taking the Viz translation and interpreting it yourself. So in reality it's your interpretation of the Viz versus multiple translators (even w/ myself aside) telling you what the text means and multiple translators telling you that the Japanese themselves consider it to be referring to Jiraiya.



> I'm going with the one with a pricetag on it and it would be insensible for anyone to claim that that's bias.


You do realize Viz gets stuff wrong a-lot and has to be corrected by online translators, right? I mean I value the quality of Viz's translation well above my own and most people, but if 5 quality translators are saying one thing and the Viz says another, at a certain point Viz should get outweighed by that, especially when Shounensuki is involved who actually is a professional translator. 



> This is about an ambiguous individual (most likely Kurama):


Again it does not make sense from even a logical stand point to be about Kurama. Why because they were making definitive statements. Itachi and Kisame didn't know if Naruto could release or control the Full Kyuubi, fellow Akatsuki members were surprised that Yugito could even release Nibi, so that skill is not common. So why would they definitively think that fighting Naruto would result in Kurama being released and having to fight it?

Additional in what universe is Itachi able to draw with Kurama? How is that more realistic than Jiraiya and Itachi achieving a draw?



> Notice the shift to Jiraiya (this means the individual before isn't Jiraiya):


Yes and the "his" is not in the dam japanese. In the Japanese the topic is the babysitter, not "his". Again I don't know what to say other than that.



> That's the translation, now from a basic English perspective, your contention/interpretation makes no sense. You can argue with other interpretations, we can't prove which one is the more accurate one, but I trust the VizMedia one more. And that's true for all of its translation (even when it doesn't favor me).


Explain to me how my interpretation does not make sense, if the "his" literally does not exist in the source material.



> The only comparison that was made between Itachi, Kisame and Jiraiya was on the basis of reputation. Jiraiya absolutely demolishes both Itachi and Kisame in terms of reputation. Fact. Nothing is compared between power and Kisame goes on later to say it made no sense that they retreated because he believed Itachi could have taken him. Given Jiraiya's little knowledge on Uchiha kekkai genkai (namely MS), and the situation, Itachi most likely could have easily dealt with Jiraiya under those circumstances with a quick use of MS tech.


Just because you think it's one way doesn't make it true.

Literally Kisame says that he doesn't know how Itachi would perform, but he's way weaker than Jiraiya. Than Itachi says well he could take him on but if things go well it will be a draw. Than Kisame responds to this saying well the babbysitter is one of the legendary three whose rep is better than his and Itachi's combined. 

The topic remains the same the entire time. Kisame begs the question of how Itachi would do. Itachi answers. Than Kisame rationalizes why that would be the case with Jiraiya's rep.

Than when the flee Kisame ask why they had to do that........because Itachi specifically told him that he could take Jiraiya on. To which Itachi says he was weakened due to prior MS use and there was no reason to rush into such a deadly battle.

The topic and context of the text remains consistent throughout. I don't know how I can express this to you any clearer.


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## Bloo (Nov 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The Viz doesn't it's your interpretation of the Viz that does.


That's a horrible contention considering everything about language is interpretation based.




> But they didn't topic shift, so yeah....


But they did, the use of "his babysitter" implies two people. Two separate people are being discussed. I don't see how you can even argue this. It's common sense.




> Kisame said he was weaker than Jiriaya, but he didn't know about Itachi. Than Itachi clarifies that he could indeed take Jiraiya on, but even if things went well it would probably result in a draw. Than when Kisame mentions why retreat he's just repeating what Itachi said that he could fight Jiraiya, so why run.


Kisame said he was weaker than the "he" which was before they started talking about Jiraiya.



> That seems really silly to me, If Viz media came out and said hey they weren't referring to Jiraiya and here's why, than you'd have a case about it being "us" (as in every online translator to ever give their thoughts on the subject) versus Viz, but that's not the case. Your just taking the Viz translation and interpreting it yourself. So in reality it's your interpretation of the Viz versus multiple translators (even w/ myself aside) telling you what the text means and multiple translators telling you that the Japanese themselves consider it to be referring to Jiraiya.


No, it's not like that at all. Viz translated it and the translation is pretty clear than anyone with basic understanding of English should be able to interpret that clearly as there being two people being discussed. I don't know how to elaborate on this because to me it isn't that difficult to understand. There's "He" and there's "his babysitter". Two people. 

I don't feel like having this same argument with you. Because, at the end of the day, even if the exchange of dialogue is what you believe it to be, it has absolute no weight in a discussion in the BD. Especially considering we can explain that Itachi could have very easily had been lying to avoid conflict. 

That exchange is a horrible contention to base an entire argument over who is stronger. If you want to delve into actual feats, go for it. I don't care who beats who. But that is a horrible argument of just using one statement that is controversial in and of itself. Surely you can agree with that.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 19, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Toad oil combination for the win for once ichi and I agree
> Base itachi gets horrendously trolled by the Jutsu



Agree on what?


Yea he does.


I put it above the lava that Mei has shown.



I don't understand why people are arguing about translations up to this point. Its either a mistranslation or an error of some sort on the artist's part.

I do believe that who ever had control over what Kisame and Itachi were saying meant that Jiraiya was the threat that they was talking about. There was a reason why a Sannin was guarding the fox instead of a jounin, because he's a fucking sannin.


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## Bloo (Nov 19, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I don't understand why people are arguing about translations up to this point. Its either a mistranslation or an error of some sort on the artist's part.


It's being discussed because someone arguing for Jiraiya posted that as if it's the end-all point. I have no concerns over who wins this match-up, I couldn't care less. But that's a bad methodology for rhetoric.



> I do believe that who ever had control over what Kisame and Itachi were saying meant that Jiraiya was the threat that they was talking about. There was a reason why a Sannin was guarding the fox instead of a jounin, because he's a fucking sannin.


The person who had control is Kishimoto, and the translation is the issue. I don't know what this has to do with anything. Kishimoto "meant" to say what is originally written. The translation is the problem.

But, I don't think that panel discussion should be brought up in BD because even if that was said, it's in the same category of hype as when Itachi said only an Uchiha can beat him (which is bull shit). It just shouldn't be mentioned.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 19, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Toad oil combination for the win for once ichi and I agree
> Base itachi gets horrendously trolled by the Jutsu



Jiraiya won't be able to use that against Itachi for many reasons.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 19, 2014)

SSMG said:


> The taijutsu feats(well all the edo feats really but you were discussing his taijutsu so) of edo itachi can only be used if itachi in the topic is healthy and fresh.. Because Edo tensei keeps him in a constant state of not being effected by his illness and also 100% chakra.



I generally assume Itachi is healthy unless specified otherwise.

And even when he's sick, I don't attribute any significant difference to his physical capabilities because there really wasn't one (other than loss of coordination with MS usage and coughing blood).


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2014)

Bloo said:


> That's a horrible contention considering everything about language is interpretation based.


You say everything about language is interpretation based (which is wrong BTW, if someone uses the word "gun" and you say it was a "stick" that's not open to interpretation your just wrong), but than at the same time are arguing against me saying that it's your interpretation of the Viz; you literally just admitted it's your interpretation of the Viz, so how is what I said wrong 



> But they did, the use of "his babysitter" implies two people. Two separate people are being discussed. I don't see how you can even argue this. It's common sense.


Because it's not that way in the actual Japanese. For the Fifth time "his" doesn't exist, the subject is the babysitter.



> Kisame said he was weaker than the "he" which was before they started talking about Jiraiya.


The "he" does not exist though. Literally the subject is the "opponent". Which they later also refer to Jiraiya (the babysitter) as. 



> No, it's not like that at all. Viz translated it and the translation is pretty clear than anyone with basic understanding of English should be able to interpret that clearly as there being two people being discussed. I don't know how to elaborate on this because to me it isn't that difficult to understand. There's "He" and there's "his babysitter". Two people.


THERE IS NO "HE" IN THE JAPANESE. How many times must I say this.



> I don't feel like having this same argument with you. Because, at the end of the day, even if the exchange of dialogue is what you believe it to be, it has absolute no weight in a discussion in the BD. Especially considering we can explain that Itachi could have very easily had been lying to avoid conflict.


Actually after reading the original Japanese is make no sense that Itachi would by lying, because Kisame doesn't know how Itachi would do, so if Itachi's objective was to play up Jiraiya he could have easily just said Jiraiya was also above his "level" or at the very least that he'd also loose to Jiraiya, but instead he says he can fight him to a draw. It's nonsensical.

And BTW, this just seems like one excuse after another. Well even if i'm wrong, here's another excuse so I don't have to accept cannon.

At least if you argue hey Turrin and others can read Japanese, so they are probably right about the context of the statement and how to interpret it and at the time Jiraiya was equal to Itachi, but maybe Kishi retecon'd it like some other P1 stuff, I could understand where your coming from and you'd actually have some precedence to draw from (the Prime-Hiruzen stuff). Than we could discuss whether or not it was retecon'd based on various other factors and displays, but to pull all these other excuses, just seems like a disingenuous argument, it really does.



> That exchange is a horrible contention to base an entire argument over who is stronger. If you want to delve into actual feats, go for it. I don't care who beats who. But that is a horrible argument of just using one statement that is controversial in and of itself. Surely you can agree with th


No I can't. A character literally telling us how they'd perform is better than any feat based comparison or any type of comparison, because they are telling us how they'd perform. If you want to talk feats in the sense that hey this doesn't make sense to me for such an such reason, okay fine, but it still doesn't change facts. I don't think feats justify Sandaime-Kazekage as the strongest Kazekage, and I can argue why other Kazekage may be better based on their abilities or feats, but since it's stated I'm not going to say the manga was wrong, unless I can find clear evidence of a retecon, such as the case with Hiruzen; and even in that clear cut situation I will still always have some doubt about whether I'm write or Kishi just didn't show enough of the abilities that would enable Hiruzen to win. That's literally how much weight direct statements like this should logically carry

Itachi's statement is literally thee best (if not outright deciding) piece of information in deciding this fight; nothing gets better than that in terms of evidence. And i'm not defending it because their can't be an argument for Jiraiya based on feats, many posters put forward great arguments for why Jiraiya can win or draw based on feats way before we got even more impressive feats from Jiraiya, Sennin Modo, Fukasaku, Shima, etc... And to be perfectly honest it's really the statement that keeps me from saying Jiraiya > Itachi at this point, because I thought Jiraiya could draw with Itachi (or they'd beat each other an nigh equal amounts of times) right after the Pain-Arc displays, so with all the new information that's come out about Jiraiya and his associated abilities, from a purely abilities/feats perspective It's hard for me not to see Jiraiya at the better equipped ninja in most scenario's. So yeah it's actually become limiting for my view point to be stuck to the "draw" scenario, but I still defend it because again I'm not going to argue with the facts, unless there is a REALLY good case for a retecon


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Bloo said:


> It's being discussed because someone arguing for Jiraiya posted that as if it's the end-all point. I have no concerns over who wins this match-up, I couldn't care less. But that's a bad methodology for rhetoric.


Yes I see with people's foot still in their asses.

It is kind of a big deal if Itachi and Kisame admitted inferiority for multiple reasons. Fuck I would say it just to spite Itachi fans because they do that shit all the time. Orochimaru, in their eyes stands absolutely no chance to Itachi because Orochimaru admitted inferiority yet he was trying to take his body and his body was weak(Orochimaru's). 

Not to mention if Kisame said it, it where true. Kisame isn't going to bullshit about that, he won't easily admit inferiority.

I really don't care either, it has no point in the debate so why not accept what is clearly meant.





> The person who had control is Kishimoto, and the translation is the issue. I don't know what this has to do with anything. Kishimoto "meant" to say what is originally written. The translation is the problem.





> But, I don't think that panel discussion should be brought up in BD because even if that was said, it's in the same category of hype as when Itachi said only an Uchiha can beat him (which is bull shit). It just shouldn't be mentioned.


And yet Uchiha fans use hype all the time, some people put alot of validity into hype. I put very little. 


Like I mentioned, He's a Sannin. That means something in the NarutoVerse. That title alone puts you out of the league of regular jounin by a good bit. Everyone of the could be considered KageLevel, that hype had to be established.


Also I used hype in my argument, i used moves that have shown to have feats that are necessary.

Jiraiya even taugh Naruto how to break Genjutsu of which Itachi commented that Naruto was learning but still weak. Jiraiya on the other a Sannin with decades of experience and knows genjutsu just doesn't prefer it as a method of fighting(He's a Boss) so 3t sharingan genjutsu would be  rather useless.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 20, 2014)

it would make no sense for itachi not to retcon kisame hyping sanin power, literally 0 sense especially when you consider the fact 3T itachi beat orochimaru already.


in one case we have 3T itachi beating orochimaru
then in another case we have MS itachi and kisame afraid of base jiraiya ? 




if jiraiya was so overwhelmingly stronger then oro the author would of noted this, but the author clearly depicted oro as the stand out sanin among the 3.
all evidence points to itachi not wanting to kill jiraiya, especially when we find out his true intentions later.




he was standing about 1 meter from jiraiya and jiraiya was hunched over using his frog jutsu yet instead of lighting jiraiya on fire with amatarasu and dispelling the summon all together, someone as intelligent as itachi used it on the frog itself that should tell you guys something.





the fact that he beat a sanin but didn't bother to correct kisame hyping sanin level power also says alot, but if you guys wan't to cling onto to this flimsy statement then by all means have at it, it still literally proves nothing.




the barrier is jiraiya's only hope off avoiding genjutsu but jiraiya only used the barrier to detect a invisible opponent, in the manga he had general uchiha knowledge and did not take these steps to avoid genjutsu so i doubt he would do it in this battle and even if he did he has to hop itachi doesn't use genjutsu on the toads he has to summon for the barrier


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## Gibbs (Nov 20, 2014)

Why would you think that Kisame (from the Mist) would have more intel regarding Jiraiya's & Itachi's power comparison than Itachi himself who came from Konoha & likely was much more aware of Jiraiya's abilities.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 20, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Why would you think that Kisame (from the Mist) would have more intel regarding Jiraiya's & Itachi's power comparison than Itachi himself who came from Konoha & likely was much more aware of Jiraiya's abilities.



because kisame doesn't have a hidden agenda to spy on akatsuki and help the hidden leaf village ck


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## Hexa (Nov 20, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Why would you think that Kisame (from the Mist) would have more intel regarding Jiraiya's & Itachi's power comparison than Itachi himself who came from Konoha & likely was much more aware of Jiraiya's abilities.


For a long time, people viewed Itachi as the more trustworthy source for exactly the reason you said.  As it turned out, Itachi is an incredibly untrustworthy source.

So when Kisame says "I'm pretty sure that you[Itachi] could have handled him[Jiraiya]", and then later implies again that he thinks Itachi could have taken Jiraiya, it's probably a hint that something is not quite right with the picture of Itachi as a villain.


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## Kai (Nov 20, 2014)

Agreed with Hexa.

Kishimoto had questionable actions put in place in almost all of Itachi's scenes prior to the reveal of his dark past.

Kisame questions Itachi's power twice, once before and once after their encounter with Jiraiya. Kisame did not witness a level of power in which he didn't believe Itachi could not handle alone. If Kisame was aware of Itachi's past encounter with Orochimaru, that would more than likely solidify his lean towards Itachi's favor.

That being said, all the top translators agree that Itachi is talking about Jiraiya in his dialogue with Kisame prior to the encounter. I'm sure the translations have been posted in the thread already, but really everyone should have them saved.


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Bringing up Orochimaru is just you trying to use the A>b<C logic. Just because 3T Itachi beat Orochimaru once with genjutsu (Because 2nd time was with Susano and all) doesn't automatically translate to Jiraiya who is obviously far more versatile that Orochimaru.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Except that Orochimaru is a lot better in Genjutsu than Jiraiya and has a lot more knowledge on the Sharingan and still got paneled by Itachi. Once Jiraiya is caught in Genjutsu it's over for him.


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## Icegaze (Nov 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya won't be able to use that against Itachi for many reasons.



I seriously don't see why that can't be his first move 
He sees itachi summons a giant frog which just about prevents eye contact 
Then he fires him 
Jiraiya would have to be stupid to not try that 
And not jiraiya doesn't need to be fighting against another giant to summon bunta
That's a funny assumption people make 
It's a summon and he can and will use it to his advantage 
Last I checked orochimaru has attacked genin using summons while the genin had none


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Except that Orochimaru is a lot better in Genjutsu than Jiraiya and has a lot more knowledge on the Sharingan and still got paneled by Itachi. Once Jiraiya is caught in Genjutsu it's over for him.




your abc logic doesnt work in BD.

Comparing Orochimaru to Jiraiya is useless. We don't even know the extent which Oro even knows about the sharingan let alone its genjutsu. Oro got paneled the first time. Second time Oro pushed Itachi much further. One could conclude that a few more battles later, oro might have beat Itachi because apparently Itachi couldnt kill orochimaru or he would have


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## Hachibi (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> your abc logic doesnt work in BD.
> 
> Comparing Orochimaru to Jiraiya is useless. We don't even know the extent which Oro even knows about the sharingan let alone its genjutsu. Oro got paneled the first time. *Second time Oro pushed Itachi much further*. One could conclude that a few more battles later, oro might have beat Itachi because apparently Itachi couldnt kill orochimaru or he would have



No he didn't


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

It's not fucking "ABC logic".

Your claim that Jiraiya (has no genjutsu feats of any kind) is immune to genjutsu or that he should easily be able to break Itachi's genjutsu is ridiculous when a guy who we know is more familiar with both Sharingan and Genjutsu got paneled by Itachi. That is a fact and not a baseless claim like yours is.

Your bias is sad.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Jiraiya gave genjutsu breaking lessons, Orochimaru never did.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

That seals it then. #JiraiyaGenjutsuMasterForLyfe #SwagGalore #420BlazeItGenjutsuBreak


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> No he didn't



Yes he did. 

1st time Oro got paneled by a 3T genjutsu. Second time Itachi was using Susano...wonder why he didnt just 3T genjutsu him again ? Because Oro improved his tactics and pushed Itachi to MS....


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Second time Itachi was using Susano...wonder why he didnt just 3T genjutsu him again ? Because Oro improved his tactics and pushed Itachi to MS....



Are you talking about Itachi vs Sasuke? 

Itachi was blind and dying...


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Well your saying Orochimaru would be better at breaking genjutsu despite never breaking or anything. Jiraiya actually taught folks how to break genjutsu.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Jiraiya taught the basics of Genjutsu breaking to a Genin. And  the said Genin failed to break any Genjutsu from that point forwards.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

You mean like Itachi needed partner method to break Tayuya's genjutsu? Oh, sorry you're talking about a *gennin* not being able to break a *kage level* ninja's genjutsu, not a *kage level* ninja not being able to break a *chunnin*'s genjutsu.


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## Bonly (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Yes he did.
> 
> 1st time Oro got paneled by a 3T genjutsu. Second time Itachi was using Susano...*wonder why he didnt just 3T genjutsu him again ?* Because Oro improved his tactics and pushed Itachi to MS....



Itachi was blind more or less, kinda hard to use three tome genjutsu when his Sharingan was gone.


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Orochimaru was about to break 3T genjtsu, thats why Itachi cut his hands off. Obviously Orochimaru can dispel it. And jiraiya has knowledge on breaking genjutsu since he was teaching it


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Orochimaru was about to break 3T genjtsu, thats why Itachi cut his hands off.


And Itachi could've actually slashed Oro's throat had he wanted to. That will happen to Jiraiya.


> Obviously Orochimaru can dispel it. And jiraiya has knowledge on breaking genjutsu since he was teaching it



Do you know who else have knowledge on breaking genjutsu? part 1 Sakura and Shikamaru. Now tell me, would they be able to break Itachi's genjutsu?


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Itachi was blind more or less, kinda hard to use three tome genjutsu when his Sharingan was gone.




Itachi was blind, yet uses his MS and susano to seal Orochimaru ?

No one said this was healthy Itachi anyways. If oro can push Itachi to use Susano, then Jiraiya will certainly beat a 3T Itachi. Nothing suggests Oro couldnt dispel genjutsu, Itachi just stopped him from doing so by cutting his hands off.


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

saikyou said:


> And Itachi could've actually slashed Oro's throat had he wanted to. That will happen to Jiraiya.
> 
> 
> Do you know who else have knowledge on breaking genjutsu? part 1 Sakura and Shikamaru. Now tell me, would they be able to break Itachi's genjutsu?




oro was trying to sneak up on Itachi. The distance here was like 1 meter when Itachi used his genjutsu. If it were 30 meters back, Oro would have dispelled the genjutsu. Jiraiya wont be that close. And your speaking as if there is no way Itachi doesn't instantly land this genjutsu, were speaking only on your terms...

Jiraiya could start the battle with YM and swamp the shit out of Itachi. It took 1/8th of a panel to form a lake.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

Kai said:


> Agreed with Hexa.
> 
> Kishimoto had questionable actions put in place in almost all of Itachi's scenes prior to the reveal of his dark past..



Also lets not forget about this : This happens

One of the biggest hints that Itachi's bussiness was something else.



JuicyG said:


> Yes he did.
> 
> 1st time Oro got paneled by a 3T genjutsu. Second time Itachi was using Susano...wonder why he didnt just 3T genjutsu him again ? Because Oro improved his tactics and pushed Itachi to MS....



He was blind. How would you expect him to use a 3 tomoe genjutsu without eyes ? 

Also "defeating" Orochimaru wasn't his objective. sealing him and removing him from Sasuke was.



Icegaze said:


> I seriously don't see why that can't be his first move
> He sees itachi summons a giant frog which just about prevents eye contact
> Then he fires him
> Jiraiya would have to be stupid to not try that
> ...



I don't think Jiraiya can summon a giant toad and use that technique on Itachi before Itachi can move out of that techniques effective range(either by getting the fuck out of there or coming too close).
I also think attempting to use an attack of that magnitude on a humanoid from the get go is completely OOC for Jiraiya. 

.


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## Bonly (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Itachi was blind, yet uses his MS and susano to seal Orochimaru ?



Itachi went blind in his Ama eye shortly before Sasuke went to use Kirin and we see Itachi blind in both eyes when he used Susanoo, hell we even saw Madara with no eyes period yet he still used Susanoo.



> If oro can push Itachi to use Susano, then Jiraiya will certainly beat a 3T Itachi.



Well Orochi didn't really push Itachi to use Susanoo, Sasuke pushed Itachi to use Susanoo but aren't you using the "abc logic" here by saying the above upon which earlier you said "your abc logic doesnt work in BD"?


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> No one said this was healthy Itachi anyways.


This most certainly is not blind dying Itachi. 


> If oro can push Itachi to use Susano, then Jiraiya will certainly beat a 3T Itachi.


Except Oro has never pushed Itachi into using Susano'o.

Do you see what kind of logic you are using here btw?


> Nothing suggests Oro couldnt dispel genjutsu, Itachi just stopped him from doing so by cutting his hands off.


Yes, Oro was about to dispel the_* paralyzing genjutsu (which being genjutsu was obvious right from the start)*_. You seem to think that Itachi is not capable of creating illusions that looks and feels like reality. Jiraiya needs to realize he is in a genjutsu before he can even think of breaking one.


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Nothing suggests Itachi;s 3T genjutsu will not be dispelled by Jiraiya, IF IT LANDS. 

And I'm only using the same logic you guys are presenting through your examples of Orochimaru, double standards ?

Lets stop talking about Orochimaru then and focus on these two instead. Nothing is stopping Jiraiya from YM'ing Itaching, and there is nothing itachi has shown to suggests he can avoid it either. Jiraiya has been shown to teach how to break genjutsu on the other hand.

Jiraiya can possibly one shot here


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Jiraiya has zero Genjutsu breaking feats unlike part 1 Sakura who actually has. Now tell me, JuicyG, would Sakura break out of Itachi's Genjutsu?

And while you're at it, tell me how in the fuck does Jiraiya automatically realize he is in a Genjutsu if Itachi makes it look like the real world?

I'm waiting.


and btw Itachi sees Jiraiya's Doton seals and the chakra forming in the earth. He can jump and focus chakra into his feet to prevent himself from sinking.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Nothing suggests Itachi;s 3T genjutsu will not be dispelled by Jiraiya, IF IT LANDS.
> 
> And I'm only using the same logic you guys are presenting through your examples of Orochimaru, double standards ?
> 
> ...



Can Jiraiya dispell Itachi's genjutsu ? I honestly don't know. He probably can. But Jiraiya is not a sensor, so if he gets hits by a sublte genjutsu, like the one Deidara was, I don't think he can realize he is caught by a genjutsu quickly enough. 

So there are a couple of variables here. Can Jiraiya realize he is caught by a genjutsu ? Or alternatively, can he reailze it in time ? And if he does, how quickly can he dispell it ? 

Because given Itachi's speed, I simply don't see Jiraiya surviving either scenario. Even if he doesn't get OHKO'D by genjutsu, it is very likely that Itachi follows it up with an attack and kills him. With that in mind, yes if genjutsu lands it is a win for Itachi.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG himself has said that he is an Itachi hater. so...


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Jiraiya has zero Genjutsu breaking feats unlike part 1 Sakura who actually has. Now tell me, JuicyG, would Sakura break out of Itachi's Genjutsu?
> 
> And while you're at it, tell me how in the fuck does Jiraiya automatically realize he is in a Genjutsu if Itachi makes it look like the real world?
> 
> ...




jiraiya was shown teaching genjutsu breaking, yet you think he doesn't know how to  


Im ignoring your bait attempt with sakura 

YM took 1/8th a panel, by the time Itachi realizes what Jiraiya's 2-hand seals were, he's already trapped, how about you got check out the panel in which it happened...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> YM took 1/8th a panel, by the tim*e Itachi realizes what Jiraiya's 2-hand seals were*, he's already trapped, how about you got check out the panel in which it happened...



No.

Itachi has the fastest handseals in the manga and he has the sharingan.

blind in both eyes
Sasuke was using CS boost to match Itachi's seal speed, and you can even argue that Itachi wasn't @ his best there.

Itachi can predict and execute a jutsu faster than Sage Kabuto can : blind in both eyes

If Jiraiya tries to play that game, he gets crushed.

Itachi is massively superior to Jiraiya. This isn't a fair fight.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No.
> 
> Itachi has the fastest handseals in the manga and he has the sharingan.
> 
> ...



This is fanfiction bullshit here. CS doesn't magically make your handseal speed better, and nothing here proves or states this. Find a REAL manga page that specifically states that Itachi has the fastest handseal speed and that CS allows you to match that handseal speed, or take this down. The only thing you posted holding even a slight shred of merit is Itachi reading intentions with Kabuto using his Mangekyou Sharingan. And as this is 3 tomoe Sharingan, that doesn't count.

Itachi is not superior to Jiraiya, and in this instance, as he's 3-Tomoe, he's screwed. J-man is going to slaughter him, and Itachi's not getting out of Toad Stomach. Face the facts.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> jiraiya was shown teaching genjutsu breaking, yet you think he doesn't know how to


When did I ever say Jiraiya doesn't know how to break Genjutsu? Just because he can doesn't mean he can autobreak every Genjutsu. 

It's fair to say Jiraiya who is lacking feats in Genjutsu would struggle against Itachi's (best Genjutsu user in the series) Genjutsu. But no. Your fanfic Jiraiya is immune to any Genjutsu.



> Im ignoring your bait attempt with sakura


Can't face the facts I see.


> YM took 1/8th a panel, by the time Itachi realizes what Jiraiya's 2-hand seals were, he's already trapped, how about you got check out the panel in which it happened...



I like how you are ignoring the fact that Itachi is faster than Jiraiya in every single way (movement, hand seals, reactions) and has precog. 

More like Itachi has dodged the technique before it's executed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> This is fanfiction bullshit here. CS doesn't magically make your handseal speed better, and nothing here proves or states this. Find a REAL manga page that specifically states that Itachi has the fastest handseal speed and that CS allows you to match that handseal speed, or take this down.
> 
> Itachi is not superior to Jiraiya, and in this instance, as he's 3-Tomoe, he's screwed. J-man is going to slaughter him, and Itachi's not getting out of Toad Stomach. Face the facts.





I can't take you seriously when you are this mad. Seriously though, were you being serious or did you rage type or something


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I can't take you seriously when you are this mad. Seriously, were you being serious or did you rage type or something



Who's mad? Trying to deflect the fact that you've lost Grimmy? 

Don't worry, I've accepted your concession.


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

lol @ Itachi dodging YM 

Jiraiya can break the genjutsu IF HE IS CAUGHT

What happens if Itachi doesnt land genjutsu ? Or Jiraiya does break it ? I see your desperate to force Jiraiya into genjutsu and then say he cant get out, because u know Itachi doesnt have much else to fight with jiraiya

Overall, Jiraiya's base is more impressive than Itachi's 3Tomoe sharigan


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> CS doesn't magically make your handseal speed better, and nothing here proves or states this.


CS magically increases the user's physical attributes (speed and strength) so yeah.




> Find a REAL manga page that specifically states that Itachi has the fastest handseal speed and that CS allows you to match that handseal speed, or take this down.


How have you missed multiple statements from Jounins and Sharingan users that say Itachi's hand seal speed is high it looks like he is not forming seals at atll.


> The only thing you posted holding even a slight shred of merit is Itachi reading intentions with Kabuto using his Mangekyou Sharingan. And as this is 3 tomoe Sharingan, that doesn't count.


Mangekyo doesn't boost Sharingan's precog abilities.



> Itachi is not superior to Jiraiya, and in this instance, as he's 3-Tomoe, he's screwed. J-man is going to slaughter him, and Itachi's not getting out of Toad Stomach. Face the facts.


Face the facts and accept Itachi's superiority.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> Who's mad? Trying to deflect the fact that you've lost Grimmy?
> 
> Don't worry, I've accepted your concession.



Ok bro  
whatever helps you sleep @ night :ignoramus




JuicyG said:


> lol @ Itachi dodging YM


He surely can as he can anticipate it, or alternatively, he can pressure Jiraiya and prevent him from using it.




> Jiraiya can break the genjutsu IF HE IS CAUGHT


Again, there is no evidence but I'll give him the benefit of doubt.
But you still deliberately ignored 2 very important points.

How long will it take Jiraiya to realize he is caught by a genjutsu and break it ? And how is he going to fend off an attack coming from Itachi when he is left completely defenseless ? 




> What happens if Itachi doesnt land genjutsu ?


It is highly unlikely. Given the numerous options Itachi has to land a genjutsu.



> Or Jiraiya does break it ?


If Jiraiya breaks it before Itachi can do anything to him, which is borderline fanfiction when you consider B barely made it, then he is still outclassed in other areas like intelligence and speed.
So he still needs to deal with a shit ton of things.



> I see your desperate to force Jiraiya into genjutsu and then say he cant get out, because u know Itachi doesnt have much else to fight with jiraiya


Everybody here knows Genjutsu is Itachi's forte and he frequently uses it. 
Can't I tell you the same thing ? That you don't want Itachi casting genjutsu because you know that Jiraiya doesn't have a shot @ dealing with it ?




> [
> Overall, Jiraiya's base is more impressive than Itachi's 3Tomoe sharigan



There are some stuff that Jiraiya is certainly better than Itachi.
But in a direct confrontation, he is outclassed.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> lol @ Itachi dodging YM


You think Itachi is not capable of jumping?



> Jiraiya can break the genjutsu IF HE IS CAUGHT


Show me a panel where Jiraiya effortlessly breaks a Genjutsu. Oh wait, you can't. 

Itachi is also capable of creating multi layered Genjutsu. Jiraiya is never getting out on his own.


> What happens if Itachi doesnt land genjutsu ?


Itachi only needs a quick glance at Jiraiya to put him under a Genjutsu. How can you realistically believe it won't happen. 



> Or Jiraiya does break it ?


It's not a huge stretch to say Jiraiya is able to escape from a casual Sharingan Genjutsu but realizing that you are in a genjutsu and then breaking it *takes time*.



> because u know Itachi doesnt have much else to fight with jiraiya


Actually on top of Genjutsu Itachi has way superior speed, intelligence and his own Ninjutsu to fight with.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

I don't understand all of you saying that Jiraiya can easily break Itachi's Genjutsu. First of all, Itachi would make it realistic, knowing that Jiraiya is a Sannin. Even if he didn't make it realistic he could just slice him up while Jiraiya's trying to break out of it. Secondly, Jiraiya has shown no feats of Genjutsu breaking. Sure, he taught Naruto but all he taught was the mechanics of it. That's theory, not practical. What good will it do when he doesn't realise that he's in a Genjutsu in the first place? Saying that Jiraiya can get caught in Genjutsu, realise he's in it, break out of it and dodge Itachi's attack is extremely far fetched. Itachi's not going to try and fucking knock a _Sannin_ out with 3 Tomoe Genjutsu. Kurenai was caught in Genjutsu that wasn't realistic while she reached Jonin most likely because of her Genjutsu as a primary feature of her abilities. Orochimaru got caught in it, but he was barely able to move his hands. Do you think that Jiraiya would be able to release it that easily?


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Im  not going to sit here and pretend that the fight starts of with Jiraiya being caught in a genjutsu. That is only one of the many things that might occur at the start of the battle. If Jiraiya does get caught, it will probably be similar to when Oro was caught, by a genjutsu that he was going to break. Jiraiya will break it before Itachi closes that distance to kill. If Jiraiya isn't caught he will dismantle Itachi with superior katon, and ninjutsu strikes. And own Itachi with YM, lake size attack that is nearly instant activation.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Who the fuck said the battle is going to start with Jiraiya caught in Genjutsu?

Itachi has all the tools required to close the distance and force Jiraiya into CQC and counter Jiraiya's Ninjutsu.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Im  not going to sit here and pretend that the fight starts of with Jiraiya being caught in a genjutsu. That is only one of the many things that might occur at the start of the battle. If Jiraiya does get caught, it will probably be similar to when Oro was caught, by a genjutsu that he was going to break. Jiraiya will break it before Itachi closes that distance to kill. If Jiraiya isn't caught he will dismantle Itachi with superior katon, and ninjutsu strikes. And own Itachi with YM, lake size attack that is nearly instant activation.



Nobody said that. 50 metres is a massive range. Please tell me how Jiraiya's able to break it when Orochimaru was barely able to put his hands together?


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## Hachibi (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Yes he did.
> 
> 1st time Oro got paneled by a 3T genjutsu. Second time Itachi was using Susano...wonder why he didnt just 3T genjutsu him again ? Because Oro improved his tactics and pushed Itachi to MS....



No he fucking didn't. Sasuke did it. Unless you believe that Oro > Hebi Sauce (which doesn't make sense since Hebi Sasuke = Sasuke + Oro), then no, Oro isn't pushing Itachi to MS.

Nice ABC logic btw.


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## Bloo (Nov 20, 2014)

I'm going to voice in regarding the Jiraiya easily breaking Itachi's genjutsu argument. Jiraiya who has a whopping 3 in Genjutsu and has never used or combated a genjutsu (on panel) is NOT going to easily break a genjutsu cast by Itachi before it's too late.

Characters who Itachi has beat with Genjutsu includes (with their Genjutsu stats):

Kurenai — 5
Orochimaru — 5
Kabuto — 4.5
Sasuke — 4 (as well as having Sharingan)
Deidara — 3.5

If anyone is really going to say that Jiraiya is going to easily beat Itachi in genjutsu when Itachi beat a genjutsu specialist without flinching (Kurenai), effortlessly one-paneled a Sanin with a 5 in genjutsu and disabled him from deactivating it when he could have slit his throat (Orochimaru), a sage with eyesight entirely blocked off (Kabuto, Izanami isn't restricted in this fight, btw), Sasuke with 3 tome Sharingan and less genjutsu affinity than Itachi easily caught Deidara (someone who is trained to see through sharingan genjutsu specifically) in a genjutsu, and Deidara.

All of these examples were accomplished without MS. Add to it that all of these people have high stats in genjutsu (higher than Jiraiya) and all have training in avoiding genjutsu, or great genjutsu proficiency themselves.

In the case of Sasuke, it took him an entire taijutsu brawl before Itachi made it blatantly obvious that he was stuck in genjutsu and he could counter. In that time, Itachi could have slashed his throat and stolen his eyes if that was said goal.

Many of you will cite that Jiraiya's proficiency in genjutsu must be high enough to dispel Itachi's genjutsu because of him teaching Naruto how to break a genjutsu. However, you all fail to realize that Jiraiya taught Naruto the most basic crash-course in dispelling a genjutsu you can imagine. He taught him the exact same protocol that Shikamaru and Sakura learned and used from the Ninja Academy:
blind in both eyes

Anyone actually believing that this little trick is going to work when most of Itachi's victims are attacked with a genjutsu that seamlessly flows along with reality and they have no idea that it was even initiated? That's insensible.

Jiraiya's only feats with genjutsu is his pathetic attempt at teaching Naruto how to dispel genjutsu. That's the one feat he has for himself that we've seen, and we all know how well that turned out:
blind in both eyes
blind in both eyes

If you're going to use Jiraiya's pitiful attempt at teaching someone how to break a genjutsu, then you have to owe up to its failure. Naruto (or Jiraiya) have never broken a genjutsu on-panel, so to try to pass off Jiraiya's competency as being enough to break Itachi's genjutsu because he failed to teach Naruto to do so, then you have no argument and no shred of evidence that you're being objective at all.

If you want to make a genjutsu argument for Jiraiya, claim that he will be smart enough to avoid eye contact and will use the barrier (which to me makes no sense seeing as how he made eye contact with Itachi and made no attempts to avoid it when they spoke). Do not try to pass off Jiraiya as being fully capable of breaking Itachi's genjutsu before his head is severed from his shoulder when much more capable genjutsu users than Jiraiya have lost to Itachi's genjutsu, including specialists and genjutsu users and people a lot more aware of sharingan in general.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

^ I agree with you Bloo, but I honestly wouldn't take the Databook stats to heart. I doubt that Kishi actually tries to accurately portray strength via stats. But Kurenai getting beat by 3 Tomoe Genjutsu is good enough evidence since we don't have much information on Jiraiya's Genjutsu breaking abilities, imo. Even if he was good at breaking them it's not like he could do it within a second.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

He didn't beat Kurenai with genjutsu. She broke it before he could do shit.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

^ Itachi just countered back *Kurenai's* cheap Genjutsu. And Kurenai > Jiraiya in Genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

He still could have killed Kurenai.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 20, 2014)

Genjutsu Itachi used on orochimaru was a kanashibari genjutsu. It paralysed orochimaru and that is why he struggled for any sort of movement. The same thing will happen to Jiraiya.

Reality simulation genjutsu. If applied properly itachi has shown to create perfect pictures. if the victim can note that their in a genjutsu then they cancel it, however this being itachi's,i find it highly unlikely that Jiraiya would be able to note that he is an illusion unless itachi gives something away, like him hovering or some shit. Kinda like what he does to Naruto. But agains't Jiraiya he will not give any clues away, like he does to naruto so jiraiya undoubtedly will be undone by this illusion  until itachi gives him a clue.

Anyway i hate arguing for base itachi because though he has enough hype to suggest he has more ninjutsu outside the ms, he doesn't have the feats so usually he is made to look weaker than he actually is or those backing him will have to resort to genjutsu. Jiraiya does hold the superior ninjutsu pool, both in power and versatility. The range given although jiraiya is more suited for mid range, does have long range attacks so range isn't much of a problem for him. Trouble is with that range, he isn't going to trouble Itachi so gradually he will have to decrease the range and that is how i see the fight going.

Summons will help him with collaborations, but again i cannot see even any collaboration techniques that itachi cannot evade. Even possible for itachi to gain control of those summoning though jiraiya should atleast be able to break any illusion casted on his summonings.

As i said jiraiya has the superior ninjutsu feat, however itachi is still far more skilled than he is and i fear will always be a few steps ahead of jiraiya in a fight. He has been portrayed to be that type of fighter. Btw not that it matters but what is the CE location, chunnin exams?


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

Sasuke was trolled by Itachi's Genjutsu even though he had the Sharingan, although he did well by breaking Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Databook says that Sasuke was able to break Itachi's Tsukuyomi instead of Itachi letting him break it, so I'm going with that.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Databook says that Sasuke was able to break Itachi's Tsukuyomi instead of Itachi letting him break it, so I'm going with that.



There is no question that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi on his own, the thing is that Itachi could've used a lot more powerful illusion than just ripping out Sasuke's eye.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Or Sasuke didn't break it until then because he didn't know it was genjutsu. How is that tsukiyomi any weaker than the one used on Kakashi? Hint, it's not. Tsukiyomi=Tsukiyomi especially when it's the same character using said jutsu.

And no ITachi couldn't have kill Kurenai with 3 tomoe genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Or Sasuke didn't break it until then because he didn't know it was genjutsu.



Exactly, Jiraiya's not going to know either. 



> And no ITachi couldn't have kill Kurenai with 3 tomoe genjutsu.



Sure, he couldn't have killed her inside of the Genjutsu but he could have afterwards. He went for a kick and instead of dodging she just tried to block and ended up being pushed far back.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> How is that tsukiyomi any weaker than the one used on Kakashi?



You don't just snap your fingers to break Tsukuyomi. It takes Sharingan, a lot of concentration and will power to break it. 

Having your eye ripped off hurts like a bitch but Itachi could've caused a lot more pain physically or mentally which would've made it a lot harder for Sasuke to endure the genjutsu and breaking out of it.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Or the pain brought the willpower to break it? Quit making excuses.


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## Hachibi (Nov 20, 2014)

Wait. Are we comparing the Tsukuyomi Itachi used against Kakashi to the one against Sasuke? 

They had like two different prupose.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Same difficulty to break.


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## Hachibi (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Same difficulty to break.



Except Kakashi never broke it.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

^I don't know if you're trolling or being legitimately serious?


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## Hachibi (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ^I don't know if you're trolling or being legitimately serious?



Wut? It's fucking obvious that when Itachi used Tsukuyomi against Part 1 Kakashi he almost immediatly passed out.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

When did Kakashi break Tsukuyomi?


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Wut? It's fucking obvious that when Itachi used Tsukuyomi against Part 1 Kakashi he almost immediatly passed out.



What the fuck does that have to do with ANYTHING? You do know Kakashi was up and conscious the entire 72 hours of torture. And then after it was over he was still up for quite a while. 

Now, how does Kakashi not breaking Tsukiyomi, make it stronger than the one Sasuke broke?


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

Oh, I thought that you were implying that Kakashi broke Tsukuyomi...

Well, the Tsukuyomi that Itachi used on Kakashi physically restrained him with no way of escape, he let Sasuke roam free in the Tsukuyomi that he cast on him, even if he did restrain him afterwards.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Sasuke was restrained when he broke tsukiyomi...Itachi was ripping his fucking eye out.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke was restrained when he broke tsukiyomi...Itachi was ripping his fucking eye out.



I know that, but before that he had free reign and control of himself, he was able to move. He used CS and tried to counter Itachi with a wing. He had control, Kakashi didn't have any control.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

^AND? How is it any more difficult to break? Sasuke was completely restrained and having his fucking eyeball ripped out of his head when he broke it. So everything else is completely irrelevant. Your just bringing up bullshit to try and prove something that ain't real. I got 5 fingers, my fist is bigger than yours. See my point? We both got 5 fingers (I'm sorry in advance for any offense, if you are missing any), so why the fuck are we taking about fists.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Or Sasuke didn't break it until then because he didn't know it was genjutsu. How is that tsukiyomi any weaker than the one used on Kakashi? Hint, it's not. Tsukiyomi=Tsukiyomi especially when it's the same character using said jutsu.
> 
> And no ITachi couldn't have kill Kurenai with 3 tomoe genjutsu.





Itachi explicitly said that he can control everything in Tsukiyomi. the air

Obito said "you played your part exactly like he assumed."
the air

Sasuke llegitimately broke Tsukiyomi. Albeit a weaker one Itachi orchestrated for him to break it.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ^AND? How is it any more difficult to break? Sasuke was completely restrained and having his fucking eyeball ripped out of his head when he broke it. So everything else is completely irrelevant. Your just bringing up bullshit to try and prove something that ain't real. I got 5 fingers, my fist is bigger than yours. See my point? We both got 5 fingers (I'm sorry in advance for any offense, if you are missing any), so why the fuck are we taking about fists.



Erm, no I'm not. I don't have an opinion on this, since we lack knowledge on it. I'm just saying that their situations weren't the same since Sasuke actually had a chance to fight back and Kakashi didn't. Take a fucking breather.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

Itachi didn't pull one punch in that fight except Susanoo. He didn't know Sasuke could counter amaterasu and still hit him with it.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi didn't pull one punch in that fight except Susanoo. He didn't know Sasuke could counter amaterasu and still hit him with it.



He knew that Sasuke had Orochimaru's powers and he had been in the Akatsuki with Orochimaru, maybe he saw Orochimaru use it or something. It would make no sense for Itachi to use Amaterasu on Sasuke if he thought that he could die or become incapacitated from it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi didn't pull one punch in that fight except Susanoo. He didn't know Sasuke could counter amaterasu and still hit him with it.



the air
the air


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## IchLiebe (Nov 20, 2014)

And Obito was manipulating Sasuke.

Even though he was trained by Orochimaru he never displayed any thing that other shinobi couldn't learn by themselves(look at Anko) to let one come to the conclusion that Sasuke had some of Orochimaru's prized techniques. Itachi had no knowledge that Sasuke had Liquid Rebirth, Oral rebirth I understand which wouldn't be able to happen due to Sasuke's body being more or less disintegrated.

And Sasuke surprised Itachi by breaking Tsukuyomi with 3 tomoe. At the same time Itachi couldn't weaken himself to much, he had to be able to keep up and survive. I don't have much faith in Hebi Sasuke, but he is a deadly shinobi that can kill at any time given the right circumstances.


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## Bloo (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Obito was manipulating Sasuke.


He manipulated Sasuke with the truth. That statement proves nothing.



> Even though he was trained by Orochimaru he never displayed any thing that other shinobi couldn't learn by themselves(look at Anko) to let one come to the conclusion that Sasuke had some of Orochimaru's prized techniques. Itachi had no knowledge that Sasuke had Liquid Rebirth, Oral rebirth I understand which wouldn't be able to happen due to Sasuke's body being more or less disintegrated.


Itachi could have guessed that seeing as how he knew Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru and used snakes in their battle. But, you're right, there was no definitive proof Itachi knew that. But we have been told Itachi planned out that battle and given Itachi could have killed Sasuke easily, and that he used Amaterasu, I'm gonna say he was betting Sasuke would survive it, whether with Oral Rebirth or not.



> And Sasuke surprised Itachi by breaking Tsukuyomi with 3 tomoe.


Really? Itachi also said that his "true self" was of him longing over stealing Sasuke's eyes... Unless he planned to defeat Sasuke, then he planned on Sasuke breaking it.



> At the same time Itachi couldn't weaken himself to much, he had to be able to keep up and survive. I don't have much faith in Hebi Sasuke, but he is a deadly shinobi that can kill at any time given the right circumstances.


Itachi is much more capable and refined than Hebi Sasuke. He did just fine. Your theorizing does nothing to disprove or even make a thought-provoking stance against well-established facts of that situation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Obito was manipulating Sasuke.



What the fuck does this have anything to do with Itachi holding back ? 

Obito might have manipulated sasuke's emotions by using the Uchiha massacre and Itachi's role in it but this ?  


I think you should come to the realization is that not posting anything is better than posting something when you actually don't have anything to post.



IchLiebe said:


> And Sasuke surprised Itachi by breaking Tsukuyomi with 3 tomoe.
> .




Itachi explicitly said that he can control everything in Tsukiyomi. 5 basic elements

Obito said "you played your part exactly like he assumed."
5 basic elements
5 basic elements

Sasuke llegitimately broke Tsukiyomi. Albeit a weaker one Itachi orchestrated for him to break it.

You'r in a loop now. And it'll continue until you realize the error in your argument and move on


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2014)

Bloo said:


> All of these examples were accomplished without MS. Add to it that all of these people have high stats in genjutsu (higher than Jiraiya) and all have training in avoiding genjutsu, or great genjutsu proficiency themselves.


Which has almost nothing to do with Genjutsu breaking. The skill to break Genjutsu is a Ninjutsu, which Jiraiya has a 5 in. It's based on chakra control which Jiraiya demonstrates exceedingly high mastery in with his ability to use 1-hand-Rasengan and utilizing Fuuinjutsu that require extremely delicate chakra control. Jiraiya is highly skill in all the areas that go into the conventional breaking of Genjutsu. 

That's not to say I don't see Jiraiya having significant trouble with Itachi's higher end illusions, but the faulty logic of he's not good at Genjutsu therefore he's not good a breaking it, should have ended 8 years ago.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 20, 2014)

Itachi already proved via Orochimaru that he can intercept before Kai is possible.

So Jiraiya is fucked.


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## Bloo (Nov 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Which has almost nothing to do with Genjutsu breaking. The skill to break Genjutsu is a Ninjutsu, which Jiraiya has a 5 in. It's based on chakra control which Jiraiya demonstrates exceedingly high mastery in with his ability to use 1-hand-Rasengan and utilizing Fuuinjutsu that require extremely delicate chakra control. Jiraiya is highly skill in all the areas that go into the conventional breaking of Genjutsu.
> 
> That's not to say I don't see Jiraiya having significant trouble with Itachi's higher end illusions, but the faulty logic of he's not good at Genjutsu therefore he's not good a breaking it, should have ended 8 years ago.


Orochimaru with a 5 in Genjutsu and Ninjutsu with a lot more knowledge of sharingan and genjutsu feats was unable to break it before Itachi made that impossible.

The whole idea of Jiraiya breaking a genjutsu in time if he were caught in one is just an assumption based off of nothing. Jiraiya has never done anything regarding genjutsu on panel. And him realizing he is even under genjutsu and breaking said genjutsu in time before Itachi kills him seems unlikely given Itachi's genjutsu affinity and speed.


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## Icegaze (Nov 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also lets not forget about this : Kabuto was doing decent in CQC against her even without a Sharingan.
> 
> One of the biggest hints that Itachi's bussiness was something else.
> 
> ...



You aren't getting it 
It's not just about using the technique but also creating distance between him and itachi and getting out of his line of sight to avoid genjutsu

Yes itachi could come in close but then bunta jumps backwards and then launches the attack 

Itachi could get out of the way but that's a maybe 

In any case from there it's 2 on 1 till itachi decides he wants to genjutsu bunta 

Bunta gets dispelled and the fight continues 

It isn't get clear cut however I don't see how it's out of character for jiraiya to do the smartest thing


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 21, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> You aren't getting it
> It's not just about using the technique but also creating distance between him and itachi and getting out of his line of sight to avoid genjutsu
> 
> Yes itachi could come in close but then bunta jumps backwards and then launches the attack
> ...



The location CE, the distance is 50 meters. By the time, Jiraiya summons Gamabunta and explains him the situation, Itachi can close the distance and cast genjutsu on Gamabunta, or simply hop on Bunta. Bunta is too sluggish to do anything about Itachi, as you remember Pain was dancing around him.

And if Bunta jumps out of the stadium and manages to put a distance, then Itachi stays within the stadium and finds cover. Or runs the opposite direction and makes his way into the city, preventing any kind of LOS.
Then he summons crows, and the sharingan crow casts genjutsu on Jiraiya. Gamabunta won't be able to dispell it since he can't even properly perform henge. 


I just noticed the OP allowed for OOC strategies so nevermind what I said about Jiraiya not using that strategy. 
I still think Itachi can deal with it tho.


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Orochimaru with a 5 in Genjutsu and Ninjutsu with a lot more knowledge of sharingan and genjutsu feats was unable to break it before Itachi made that impossible.


Again having a 5 in Genjutsu doesn't mean anything. Orochimaru also has a 5 in Ninjutsu, but that doesn't mean they are the same skill "level" at Ninjutsu Kai.



> The whole idea of Jiraiya breaking a genjutsu in time if he were caught in one is just an assumption based off of nothing. Jiraiya has never done anything regarding genjutsu on panel.


Agreed. However on the flip side, assuming Jiraiya would perform exactly the same as Orochmaru (or worse) is an equally big assumption as we've never seen how he'd perform at breaking Genjutsu.



> And him realizing he is even under genjutsu and breaking said genjutsu in time before Itachi kills him seems unli


I don't think Jiraiya breaking it is the best thing for people to argue in defense of him getting out off Three-Tome Genjutsu, there are much better arguments, nor do I agree with those asserting Jiraiya would definitely break Itachi's three-tome genjutsu, but with that aside this he has a lower Genjutsu stat therefore is worse at breaking Genjutsu needs to stop


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Again having a 5 in Genjutsu doesn't mean anything. Orochimaru also has a 5 in Ninjutsu, but that doesn't mean they are the same skill "level" at Ninjutsu Kai.




jiraiya doesn't even have kai feats, so what are you basing jiraiya's amazing kai skills off of turrin?

i agree you don't need to be a genjutsu expert to kai out, but if i had to bet money on who was more likely to kai out, then i would pick the person who is more verse in genjutsu, as he should have more experience with it



Turrin said:


> Agreed. However on the flip side, assuming Jiraiya would perform exactly the same as Orochmaru (or worse) is an equally big assumption as we've never seen how he'd perform at breaking Genjutsu.


there is no reason to believe he would do any better then orochimaru, orochimaru was made to be the standout sanin among the three and the genius, in terms of kai i don't see why we should believe jiraiya has a better kai then oro.



Turrin said:


> I don't think Jiraiya breaking it is the best thing for people to argue in defense of him getting out off Three-Tome Genjutsu, there are much better arguments, nor do I agree with those asserting Jiraiya would definitely break Itachi's three-tome genjutsu, but with that aside this he has a lower Genjutsu stat therefore is worse at breaking Genjutsu needs to stop



that's a perfectly fine assertion in my opinion, they both can clearly use kai, except one of the kai users has a fuk ton more sharingon knowledge and is a verse genjutsu user himself, i think ill side with him if i was a betting man in who would be more likely to break out of itachi's genjutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 21, 2014)

^
Yeah, Jiraiya is the only sannin who has 4.5 int and seals. So his handseal knowledge and proficiency isn't top notch and he isn't very intelligent.

His chances of dealing with genjutsu are worse than Orochimaru and Tsunade.


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## Gibbs (Nov 21, 2014)

Why are we basing an argument on Databook entries which as far as I know are severely outdated.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 21, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Why are we basing an argument on Databook entries which as far as I know are severely outdated.



because the new databook didn't hype jiraiya's kai skills ck


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 21, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Why are we basing an argument on Databook entries which as far as I know are severely outdated.



Because Jiraiya is outdated. He died before Databook 3 was released :ignoramus


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> Yeah, Jiraiya is the only sannin who has 4.5 int and seals. So his handseal knowledge and proficiency isn't top notch and he isn't very intelligent.
> 
> His chances of dealing with genjutsu are worse than Orochimaru and Tsunade.


Hand-seals and intelligence have nothing to do with breaking Genjutsu. Once again the skill to break out of Genjutsu is a Ninjutsu based on chakra control.


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## Itachі (Nov 21, 2014)

I still find it hilarious how people in this thread have incessantly argued that Jiraiya can break out of Itachi's Genjutsu so easily just because of his portrayal and because he taught Naruto things that people in the fucking academy know. Maybe some actual proof or something would be good, you know?


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## JuicyG (Nov 21, 2014)

^^^

 this is what it means to overrate Itachi...even Orochimaru was able to break from his genjutsu,  thats why Itachi hurried to cut his hands off to stop him from doing so. And that 1 meter distance isnt applied to this match. Jiraiya Kai's out of the genjutsu and beats Itachi with superior base skills


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## Itachі (Nov 21, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> ^^^
> 
> this is what it means to overrate Itachi...even Orochimaru was able to break from his genjutsu,  thats why Itachi hurried to cut his hands off to stop him from doing so. And that 1 meter distance isnt applied to this match. Jiraiya Kai's out of the genjutsu and beats Itachi with superior base skills



What do you mean "even Orochimaru", I mean, it's not like he's a Kage level Shinobi or anything..  

None of you that say that Jiraiya can easily break out of Jiraiya's Genjutsu are providing any evidence. You're making Itachi fans look good. 

I've said this many times before but I'm going to say it again. Itachi made it obvious that Orochimaru was in a Genjutsu, he could make it realistic so Jiraiya has no idea that it's a Genjutsu. Hebi Sasuke wasn't aware that he was in a Genjutsu with his fucking _Sharingan_. If Itachi makes it realistic, he takes out Jiraiya. Itachi's not going to use Genjutsu from far enough that he can't kill Jiraiya while Jiraiya's subdued by the Genjutsu, I doubt that he could use it well enough from far away, it does require eye contact after all. Even if Jiraiya did realise it's a Genjutsu, 20 metres or so is enough for Itachi to roast and cut him with Katon: Hosenka Tsumabeni or use Suiton: Suigadan on him. Still, if Itachi didn't even use a Jutsu and decided to take him in CQC while Jiraiya's out, where's the evidence that Jiraiya would be able to Kai out of the Genjutsu that fast?


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## IchLiebe (Nov 21, 2014)

Itachi has already used a subtle genjutsu on Jiraiya (well, you know what I mean) in part 1, Kisame even said they doubted that it would work.


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## Hachibi (Nov 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi has already used a subtle genjutsu on Jiraiya (well, you know what I mean) in part 1, Kisame even said they doubted that it would work.



No he didn't. He controlled the woman to take Jiraiya away. He never used a genjutsu directly against Jiraiya.


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## Itachі (Nov 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi has already used a subtle genjutsu on Jiraiya (well, you know what I mean) in part 1, Kisame even said they doubted that it would work.



He used it on the woman. Pretty sure that Jiraiya could tell if another person was in a Genjutsu by feeling their Chakra flow.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 21, 2014)

Jiraiya isn't a sensor as Itachi fans stated earlier.


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## Itachі (Nov 21, 2014)

I meant physically touching, not sensing.



IchLiebe said:


> Jiraiya isn't a sensor as Itachi fans stated earlier.



Why do you say "Itachi fans" like that, what difference does it make?


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## IchLiebe (Nov 21, 2014)

And I'm not sure you can feel someones chakra flow just by touching them. Scan?

Gotta tell the Itachi fans aside from the normal ones.


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## Itachі (Nov 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And I'm not sure you can feel someones chakra flow just by touching them. Scan?
> 
> Gotta tell the Itachi fans aside from the normal ones.



I'm not sure, but Chiyo and Naruto disrupted Naruto's Chakra flow to awaken him from the Genjutsu. I don't really see how Jiraiya would find out that she's under a Genjutsu otherwise, unless he found it strange that a random woman was trying to seduce him. If it's the latter, that's not even relevant to Genjutsu skill.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 21, 2014)

Chiyo and Sakura probably figured it since Naruto was just standing there while Kakashi and Itachi fought offpanel.

Jiraiya knew because he's that skilled. And as he said, women don't get him, he gets the women.


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## Itachі (Nov 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Chiyo and Sakura probably figured it since Naruto was just standing there while Kakashi and Itachi fought offpanel.
> 
> Jiraiya knew because he's that skilled. And as he said, women don't get him, he gets the women.



Agreed.

Jiraiya knew because no young woman in her right mind's going to chase after a man like that without money.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Hand-seals and intelligence have nothing to do with breaking Genjutsu. Once again the skill to break out of Genjutsu is a Ninjutsu based on chakra control.




Actually hand seal proficiency is basically ninjutsu execution. Chakra molding and performing handseals allows you to cast traditional ninjutsu.
And I remember somewhere in the manga intelligence was associated with genjutsu.

They aren't totally disconnected from it either.


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## Itachі (Nov 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And I remember somewhere in the manga intelligence was associated with genjutsu.
> 
> They aren't totally disconnected from it either.



I think that you're talking about the second Databook. It was said that only those with very precise Chakra control and high intelligence could use Genjutsu. Strange that Fukasaku or Shima said that Genjutsu wasn't Jiraiya's strong point since Jiraiya had shown considerable Chakra control anyway. He could use a Chou Odama Rasengan in one hand and he had been able to use the Shikoku Fuin while he was dying and impaled with Pein's Chakra disrupting rods.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

Itachі said:


> I think that you're talking about the second Databook. It was said that only those with very precise Chakra control and high intelligence could use Genjutsu. Strange that Fukasaku or Shima said that Genjutsu wasn't Jiraiya's strong point since Jiraiya had shown considerable Chakra control anyway. He could use an Odama Rasengan in one hand and he had been able to use the Shikoku Fuin while he was dying and impaled with Pein's Chakra disrupting rods.



I have no doubt that a shinobi of Jiraiya's level would have pretty decent chakra control. But is it really all it takes to break Itachi's genjutsu ? Because we've seen that Itachi can shut down any attempt of Kai if he wants to. And we've seen Orochimaru struggle against 13 year old Itachi's genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Nov 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The location CE, the distance is 50 meters. By the time, Jiraiya summons Gamabunta and explains him the situation, Itachi can close the distance and cast genjutsu on Gamabunta, or simply hop on Bunta. Bunta is too sluggish to do anything about Itachi, as you remember Pain was dancing around him.
> 
> And if Bunta jumps out of the stadium and manages to put a distance, then Itachi stays within the stadium and finds cover. Or runs the opposite direction and makes his way into the city, preventing any kind of LOS.
> Then he summons crows, and the sharingan crow casts genjutsu on Jiraiya. Gamabunta won't be able to dispell it since he can't even properly perform henge.
> ...



I don't see why jiraiya would need to explain the situation 
It's i summoned you fight 
Summons don't need explanation do they ?

maybe your right 
While I would say jiraiya cannot bream genjutsu I still believe he can avoid it 
He could simply start the match with clones which we know genjutsu doesn't work on


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> I don't see why jiraiya would need to explain the situation
> It's i summoned you fight
> Summons don't need explanation do they ?


I am pretty sure they do. level of destruction
level of destruction
level of destruction

I mean, Gamabunta won't spit oil as soon as he comes to the fight, he and Jiraiya aren't mentally linked. 



> maybe your right
> While I would say jiraiya cannot bream genjutsu I still believe he can avoid it
> He could simply start the match with clones which we know genjutsu doesn't work on



Yeah he might. But then, there are different methods of genjutsu Itachi can use, like crow genjutsu or finger genjutsu. Knowledge is rep only. If Jiraiya had full knowledge, then I could buy that Jiraiya would be fully prepared for any kind of genjutsu but not here bro, sorry. 

No one in the manga was able to avoid Itachi's genjutsu, I see absolutely no reason that Jiriaya can do it either, especially without any kind of prep and full knowledge.


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## Ashi (Nov 22, 2014)

Lolgenjutsu destroys all


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## Itachі (Nov 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am pretty sure they do. level of destruction
> level of destruction
> level of destruction
> 
> I mean, Gamabunta won't spit oil as soon as he comes to the fight, he and Jiraiya aren't mentally linked.



Well, that's when Jiraiya was in a special situation and dealing with enemy summons. Jiraiya was trying to go into SM, here it's not important.


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

@Grimm
Actually Kabuto managed to avoid Itachi's genjutsu until Izanami came into play.

Tho Jiraiya isn't SM Kabuto.


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## Icegaze (Nov 22, 2014)

I am still of the opinion that jiraiya can fight with his eyes closed using detection barrier 
While his clone fight with their eyes open 
Not like there is shared vision or anything but there is shared experience 
Jiraiya could come up with a strategy in that manner 

Truth is this entire battle rides on how jiraiya deals at genjutsu 
If he can fight with his eyes closed he steam rolls


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> I am still of the opinion that jiraiya can fight with his eyes closed using detection barrier


I don't think so. Not just because Jiraiya hasn't shown the capability, the purpose of the barrier is something else.
Jiraiya can detect movement, but he can't anticipate or dodge anything he can't see, even if you assume he is used to fighting without vision(which he isn't.)



> While his clone fight with their eyes open
> Not like there is shared vision or anything but there is shared experience
> Jiraiya could come up with a strategy in that manner



Sounds a bit farfetched imo. It is also questionable whether Jiraiya can spam clones or not. Given he didn't against Pain, I think it is something he only uses when it is absolutely necessary, not something he can casually spam like Naruto does.



> Truth is this entire battle rides on how jiraiya deals at genjutsu
> If he can fight with his eyes closed he steam rolls


Even if he can fight eyes closed and make himself completely immune to genjutsu(which is fanfiction for many reasons), then I still don't see him steam rolling anything. Itachi is still faster and smarter. Jiraiya still needs to deal with attacks he can't see, and he still needs to tag an enemy who is significantly faster, and who can perfectly anticipate his moves.




Hachibi said:


> @Grimm
> Actually Kabuto managed to avoid Itachi's genjutsu until* Izanami *came into play.
> 
> Tho Jiraiya isn't SM Kabuto.



What is Izanami again ? 




Itachі said:


> Well, that's when Jiraiya was in a special situation and dealing with enemy summons. Jiraiya was trying to go into SM, here it's not important.


Irrelevant. Everyone needs to be briefed about whats going on. They are summoned from a different place into an unknown situation. It is common sense.


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## Itachі (Nov 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Irrelevant. Everyone needs to be briefed about whats going on. They are summoned from a different place into an unknown situation. It is common sense.



In this situation all he has to say is attack Itachi...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

Itachі said:


> In this situation all he has to say is attack Itachi...



If they are going to execute a specific strategy, then I think Jiraiya at least needs to mention what it is they are going to do.
The point is, Gamabunta won't be doing what Jiriaya has in mind as soon as he is summoned.


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