# Hashi and Madz take on Juubito



## Deer Lord (Feb 4, 2015)

Edo hashirama and edo madara trade places with naruto and sasuke in the battle against obito.

*Location:* Allience Vs Juubi
*Mindset: *Juubito goes for MT after sparring with them for a few minutes, the duo intends to stop that from happening. Also assume madara is cooperative with his allies.
*Distance: *50m
*Intel:* Manga at that point 
Stipulations: Battle starts when obito transforms into his 'controlled' form, but with hashi and madz in the places of nardo & sauce.
The duo recive help from minato and tobirama like naruto and sasuke did. They do not however recieve help from K11.
naruto and sasuke are somewhere else banging or something.


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## sabre320 (Feb 4, 2015)

a serious juubito wins this rather easily madaras and hashiramas abilities do not blend as well as narutos and sasukes


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 4, 2015)

they would kill obito with no effort. obitos bijudama tree is chopped down by madaras PS or is destroyed by the mokujin. either construct can do so easily. madaras PS can also simply fly out of obitos barrier.

the shinju is also chopped down by perfect susano, although the sheer size of PS and the mokujin would make it so that any branches would be destroyed by their mere footsteps or any kind of movement(the branch sasuke chopped is the biggest branch that the shinju has shown) , so they probably wouldnt even have to bother with it.

obitos six paths sword can be caught by hashiramas mokujin and it will not be erased because of senjutsu. his truthseeker shield can be destroyed by its punches. once the shield is broken, the mokujin smashes him or he is obliterated by a direct hit from a PS slash.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 4, 2015)

Obito wins of course. No Naruto here to pull out Bijuu or make him doubt himself to weaken Nunoboku, and they lack the synergy Naruto and Sasuke possess. Neither of these two are god tier, so no flat out killing him either. They have no way of putting him down. Granted they won't get no diffed, especially with Minato and Tobirama porting them around, but they have no means of victory, and will eventually lose.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> they would kill obito with no effort. obitos bijudama tree is chopped down by madaras PS or is destroyed by the mokujin. either construct can do so easily. madaras PS can also simply fly out of obitos barrier.



The same tree was still standing after the quad Bijuudama went off. They aren't even scratching it. Obviously Madara's PS isn't getting through a barrier that tanked the quad Juubidama.

They can either pass through the ground with Mokuton or escape with Hiraishin, but they get blown to pieces the moment they try to take something blatantly above them in power, not unlike what happened in canon.



> the shinju is also chopped down by perfect susano, although the sheer size of PS and the mokujin would make it so that any branches would be destroyed by their mere footsteps or any kind of movement(the branch sasuke chopped is the biggest branch that the shinju has shown) , so they probably wouldnt even have to bother with it.



Lol no. Nothing short of Rikudo powered people are chopping down the Shinjuu. Even insinuating Madara's PS can accomplish such despite getting utterly trashed by Shinsuusenju and stalemated by a SM Mokujin is laughable. Chop up branches sure.



> obitos six paths sword can be caught by hashiramas mokujin and it will not be erased because of senjutsu. his truthseeker shield can be destroyed by its punches. once the shield is broken, the mokujin smashes him or he is obliterated by a direct hit from a PS slash.



Obito blocked more powerful techniques than a Mokujin punch and PS slash with his Godudama, and even then it was only cracked. Mokujin punches aren't breaching that.

Mokujin isn't even worth crap to Juubito. He one shotted Naruto's BM that took a Juubi laserdama head on. Mokujin was vaporized by Kurama's Bijuudama. He bodies Mokujin like he bodied Naruto's and Sasuke's chakra mechs.


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## sabre320 (Feb 4, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> they would kill obito with no effort. obitos bijudama tree is chopped down by madaras PS or is destroyed by the mokujin. either construct can do so easily. madaras PS can also simply fly out of obitos barrier.
> 
> the shinju is also chopped down by perfect susano, although the sheer size of PS and the mokujin would make it so that any branches would be destroyed by their mere footsteps or any kind of movement(the branch sasuke chopped is the biggest branch that the shinju has shown) , so they probably wouldnt even have to bother with it.
> 
> obitos six paths sword can be caught by hashiramas mokujin and it will not be erased because of senjutsu. his truthseeker shield can be destroyed by its punches. once the shield is broken, the mokujin smashes him or he is obliterated by a direct hit from a PS slash.



branches that carried off bm avatars will be destroyed by ps moving 
Ah kami sama never change


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## Kai (Feb 4, 2015)

The manga has made it clear. Only senjutsu can harm a Juubi's Jinchuuriki.

Madara is useless in this fight.


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## Trojan (Feb 4, 2015)

Obito annihilated both of them even though he was not even fighting them. :rofl 
They got destroyed from the crossfire from Obito Vs Naruto & co battle. 

They stand no chance here either...


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## RedChidori (Feb 4, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Obito wins of course. No Naruto here to pull out Bijuu or make him doubt himself to weaken Nunoboku, and they lack the synergy Naruto and Sasuke possess. Neither of these two are god tier, so no flat out killing him either. They have no way of putting him down. Granted they won't get no diffed, especially with Minato and Tobirama porting them around, but they have no means of victory, and will eventually lose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This basically.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 4, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> The same tree was still standing after the quad Bijuudama went off. They aren't even scratching it. Obviously Madara's PS isn't getting through a barrier that tanked the quad Juubidama.
> They can either pass through the ground with Mokuton or escape with Hiraishin, but they get blown to pieces the moment they try to take something blatantly above them in power, not unlike what happened in canon.


hashiramas gates were still standing after the juubis bijudama as well. whats your point? PS slashes the tree apart with no difficulty.

by your logic, im guessing that the mokuton behind hashirama in this scan is also still standing after the juubis bijudamas?


just like the leftover mokuton from hashiramas jukai koutan after kuramas bijudama at VOTE was "still standing".

a PS slash is pound for pound stronger than any shown bijudama. PS just does not have the AOE that the juubis bijudama has.


 the barrier is completely open at the top. there isnt any reason that madaras PS cannot simply fly out of the barrier.




> Lol no. Nothing short of Rikudo powered people are chopping down the Shinjuu. Even insinuating Madara's PS can accomplish such despite getting utterly trashed by Shinsuusenju and stalemated by a SM Mokujin is laughable. Chop up branches sure.


the width of the shinjus trunk is about the size of multiple mountains. it gets chopped with no effort. being rikudo powered or not is irrelevant and madara has six paths power already so that point was entirely useless.



> Obito blocked more powerful techniques than a Mokujin punch and PS slash with his Godudama, and even then it was only cracked. Mokujin punches aren't breaching that.



obitos strongest truthseeker shield was taken apart by nine odama rasengan which do not produce DC comparable to anything that the mokujin or PS can do. all nine of the rasengans produced a comparable explosion to 50% kurama.



> Mokujin isn't even worth crap to Juubito. He one shotted Naruto's BM that took a Juubi laserdama head on. Mokujin was vaporized by Kurama's Bijuudama. He bodies Mokujin like he bodied Naruto's and Sasuke's chakra mechs.


its not even physically possible for obito to even grab the mokujin. the mokujin is the same size as PS and the juubi. 
obito doesnt take out the mokujin considering that it hilariously outscales everything that obito has shown to do with the truthseekers.


obitos feat is not impressive as the damage it caused is less than what madara or hashirama can do individually.


sabre320 said:


> branches that carried off bm avatars will be destroyed by ps moving
> Ah kami sama never change


of course. PS is infinitely larger than 50% kurama. PS and the mokujin were killing biju sized juubi clones with mere footsteps. the branches are not a factor.


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## ARGUS (Feb 4, 2015)

Juubito still violates them, 

 -- No one bar hashirama is even worth mentioning here, since onmyoudon trolls through all of their other jutsus, therefore leaving all the rest as good as useless, 

 -- madara and minatos PS and Kyuubi is good and all, however onmyoudon still plows through the construct, allowing juubito to massacre them with ease, or a single juubi dama one shots the entire structure, along with the duo themselves 

 -- hashiramas full power which is SS is good and all, however it doesnt stand a chance against obito here, not when obito can simply aim directly at hashirama and finish him off, whats worse is that it doesnt have the durability to tank juubitos TBB either so that as well would one shot it along with everyone else on the battlefield

 -- so at the end of the day, madara and minato are non factor, they cant hurt juubito, their constructs are meaningless infront of onmyoudon, drop slams, TBB and sword of nunoboku (depending on obitos will) and their reflexes are well below juubitos (edo madara possibly cant even track him), so once their constructs are gone, they get raped 

 -- tobirama is also a non factor here, even more than madara and minato as his ninjutsu is useless and his striking speed is piss poor infront of juubitos so the second he attempts to attack him, he gets his head blown off and gets eviscerated


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 4, 2015)

^ But EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto tracked him. Alive Madara and Alive Hashirama (assuming from OP) should have no problem tracking him.


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## Trojan (Feb 4, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Juubito still violates them,
> 
> -- No one bar hashirama is even worth mentioning here, since onmyoudon trolls through all of their other jutsus, therefore leaving all the rest as good as useless,
> 
> ...



Actually Minato makes the Gedu-Dama useless as he did with Madara. 
Also, Hashirama's SM is pretty much useless here, as unlike Naruto, Hashirama's jutsu do not
effect obito as we saw in the manga when he attacked him with the gates.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 4, 2015)

Senjutsu Perfect Susano'o + Shinsuusenju, with potential Bijuudama support from the complete Kyuubi Bijuu?

Juubito gets raped up the butt.

Sasuke+Naruto was a close call for him. This is rape.

Up the butt.


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## ARGUS (Feb 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ But EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto tracked him. Alive Madara and Alive Hashirama (assuming from OP) should have no problem tracking him.


Edo madaras sharingan precog is nothing special 
He couldn't even track lightened Ay 
An Juubito >>> Lightened Ay, so I doubt madara a tracking him

Hashirama should be able to sense him though, 



Hussain said:


> Actually Minato makes the Gedu-Dama useless as he did with Madara.
> Also, Hashirama's SM is pretty much useless here, as unlike Naruto, Hashirama's jutsu do not
> effect obito as we saw in the manga when he attacked him with the gates.



Minato could only warp them if obito throws the balls at him, 
If he attempts to warp them by coming up close to obito then he gets his arm ripped off any time he decides to attack or teleport. 

And TSB is different from onmyoudon 
Not to mention that juubito can use onmyoudon whenever he wants. So any attack from Ps and kyuubi is trolled with ease 

Hashiramas gates trapped mindless juubito who couldn't use onmyoudon. 
They still trapped him. The only problem was that they weren't strong enough to pin him down so tht got shat on 

Hashirama is the only one relevant here. But he himself gets his ass handed to him, so The team lose


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## Trojan (Feb 4, 2015)

I don't know what do you mean by "TSB" to be honest. 

- Not really, Obito destroyed them right away.


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## ARGUS (Feb 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't know what do you mean by "TSB" to be honest.
> 
> - Not really, Obito destroyed them right away.



TSB = Truth Seeking Balls = Gudoudama 

Obito destroyed them because he was strong enough 
He didn't have onmyoudon in his mindless state so ur whle thing about hashiramas SM not working is wrong


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## trance (Feb 4, 2015)

It was made abundantly clear that Juubito was on an entirely different level than either.


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## Trojan (Feb 4, 2015)

- Then they are the same as onmyoudon. 
- The Kid's SM Rassengan did much bigger damage.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 4, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Edo madaras sharingan precog is nothing special
> He couldn't even track lightened Ay
> An Juubito >>> Lightened Ay, so I doubt madara a tracking him
> 
> Hashirama should be able to sense him though,



 So Edo Madara's Precog is worse than EMS Sasuke's precognition? 

 You're also implying Edo Madara's precognition is worse than Tobirama's reactions which makes no sense at all considering ET Hashirama is implied to be the strongest of the bunch by ET Madara.

 Edo Madara should be able to track him even if he might not be able to react in CQC.

 Even then, the fact that a Blind Alive Madara who received a minimal boost from SM managed to react to Tobirama's Hiraishin twice seems to imply that he can track Juubito if EMS Sasuke w/ inferior reactions could. 

 I mean, even Muu could track him.  Any scans to prove Madara could not track him? The first time Unweighted V2 Ei attacked Madara did not show anything that implied Madara couldn't track him.

 @ Trance

 It's also clear that Alive Madara and Alive Hashirama are on a much higher level than EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto, so ......

 Edit: I'm still uncertain whether Alive Hashirama can't beat Juubito due to the sheer power of his Mokuton. Since Madara is useless, I guess out of doubt, I'd give it to either time high-diff as Madara can still use PS for Hashirama's defense against Juubito's offense or even absorb some of Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra to make things a bit more even if need be.


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## darkcatmax (Feb 4, 2015)

Juubito: Mid Diff

Nothing in madara's arsenal can hurt Juubito, since TSB just nigates all non Sage Techniques. Minato and Tobi can only make the battle last longer by teleporting as support. Not to mention Hashi's wood isn't strong enough to hold Jubito.


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## trance (Feb 4, 2015)

Perhaps but that doesn't equate to them being any sort of match for Juubito.


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## Alita (Feb 4, 2015)

Are you people joking? These two are stronger than naruto and sauce at the time but Juubito outright blitzed hashirama and tobirama(Who is likely even faster than hashi or madara.). There's nothing stopping him really from blitzing them both and engulfing them in the black spheres which have shown to negate even edo. This is a stomp in juubito's favor. You need people at least close to juudara level or above to compete.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 4, 2015)

trance said:


> Perhaps but that doesn't equate to them being any sort of match for Juubito.



 Perhaps, but I'm of the opinion that either can win high-diff.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 5, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hashiramas gates were still standing after the juubis bijudama as well. whats your point? PS slashes the tree apart with no difficulty.
> 
> by your logic, im guessing that the mokuton behind hashirama in this scan is also still standing after the juubis bijudamas?



Why not assert Hashirama himself tanked the quad Juubidama too then, since he was in the same panel as that rubble? They obviously aren't going to be outputting power on the level needed to cut down that tree. If they could, Hashirama for instance would have done so in canon, instead of resigning to simply lead the bomb to the sea.



> just like the leftover mokuton from hashiramas jukai koutan after kuramas bijudama at VOTE was "still standing".



It existed in a destroyed state. As damaged as the tree was, it was indeed still standing, and from an attack magnitudes higher than anything either Hashirama or Madara can produce.



> a PS slash is pound for pound stronger than any shown bijudama. PS just does not have the AOE that the juubis bijudama has.



Based on what? Sasuke's aside, it's best feat is cutting the tops off mountains. That doesn't eclipse anything a Bijuudama has done. The mere fact that a Bijuudama vaporized Mokujin, yet Mokujin could fight on par with PS, is proof.



> the barrier is completely open at the top. there isnt any reason that madaras PS cannot simply fly out of the barrier.



Unless Obito is brain dead, he'll simply destroy Susano'o with a Godudama. No Senjutsu means it gets erased without resistance.



> the width of the shinjus trunk is about the size of multiple mountains. it gets chopped with no effort. being rikudo powered or not is irrelevant and madara has six paths power already so that point was entirely useless.



Just like Mokujin and Shinsuusenju got chopped with no effort amirite? Let me rephrase the Rikudo point then. Only people with Rikudo level power, in other words the god tiers, are cutting that tree down.



> obitos strongest truthseeker shield was taken apart by nine odama rasengan which do not produce DC comparable to anything that the mokujin or PS can do. all nine of the rasengans produced a comparable explosion to 50% kurama.



PS I agree with. The fuck has Mokujin done though. Aside from grabbing a Bijuudama, and tapping Kurama's forehead, it hasn't any strength feats. A weaker version of those same Rasengans were pushing Kurama back.



> its not even physically possible for obito to even grab the mokujin. the mokujin is the same size as PS and the juubi.
> obito doesnt take out the mokujin considering that it hilariously outscales everything that obito has shown to do with the truthseekers.



Since when is PS and Mokujin the same size as the Juubi? If he can oneshot something that took a Bijuudama from the Juubi like a champ with a mere body slam, he will do it do something that can't even take a standard Bijuudama from Kurama.



> obitos feat is not impressive as the damage it caused is less than what madara or hashirama can do individually.



No. Not really. Neither can one shot something with Naruto's BM durability.



> PS is infinitely larger than 50% kurama. PS and the mokujin were killing biju sized juubi clones with mere footsteps. the branches are not a factor.



Well we can agree there. Even fodder were cutting down the branches.


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## Deer Lord (Feb 5, 2015)

A few points to consider:

- Some seem to consider this fight as obito fighting them individually or something, but in fact they cooperate.
- Madara can apply his sussano' on hashi's wood constructs. I don't think anyone mentioned this before
- Hashi should be able to share sage chakra with madara considering madara was able to handle it just fine.
so overall I disagree with the notion that madara is useless.


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## Kai (Feb 5, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> - Hashi should be able to share sage chakra with madara considering madara was able to handle it just fine.
> so overall I disagree with the notion that madara is useless.


That's not how it works.


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2015)

due to madara uselessness in this fight obito wins
if madara had access to senjutsu then the duo wins


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## Deer Lord (Feb 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> That's not how it works.


why not?
Madara took it by force in the manga, so it should be much easier if hashi gave it to him willingly


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## Arles Celes (Feb 5, 2015)

Hmmm, PS probably can't cover Shinsenjuu.

But maybe it could cover Mokujin. I wonder if Hashi's SM chakra from Mokujin could somehow connect with PS armor making it SM infused too like how Sasuke's PS sword was seemingly infused with SM simply by covering Naruto's BSM.

And since Madara's Rinnegan needed Six Path chakra to awaken(which happens when Indra's and Asura's chakra's connect) then he may be able to damage Juubito with Rinnegan jutsus.
seeing how kaguya clearly saw him coming which means that she reacted,


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## Kai (Feb 5, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> But maybe it could cover Mokujin. I wonder if Hashi's SM chakra from Mokujin could somehow connect with PS armor making it SM infused too like how Sasuke's PS sword was seemingly infused with SM simply by covering Naruto's BSM.


There was no senjutsu interaction between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke got his senjutsu share from Juugo's cursed seal.


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## Ghost (Feb 5, 2015)

Obito rapes them in CQC.


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## sabre320 (Feb 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> There was no senjutsu interaction between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke got his senjutsu share from Juugo's cursed seal.



 the two chakra avatars merged together perfectly blended senjutsu included....


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## Deer Lord (Feb 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> There was no senjutsu interaction between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke got his senjutsu share from Juugo's cursed seal.


sauce and nardo didn't have jugo aboard when they fused their mechs.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 5, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Why not assert Hashirama himself tanked the quad Juubidama too then, since he was in the same panel as that rubble? They obviously aren't going to be outputting power on the level needed to cut down that tree. If they could, *Hashirama for instance would have done so in canon*, instead of resigning to simply lead the bomb to the sea.
> It existed in a destroyed state. As damaged as the tree was, it was indeed still standing, and from an attack magnitudes higher than anything either Hashirama or Madara can produce.


the point is flying right over your head. whatever mokuton that hashirama used in the panel i posted existed in the same state as the bijudama tree after the explosions went off. 

*Spoiler*: __ 








PS can cut hashiramas mokuton in its entirety as shown in canon.

*Spoiler*: __ 







so the bijudama tree not being vaporized in its entirety does not disprove PS not being able to cut it.

PS having pound for pound more power than bijudama is supported.

@bold- hashirama=/=his clone. the clone doesnt have strength that could considered comparable to the real hashiramas full power in any sense. the real hashirama can without a doubt destroy the bijudama tree while his clone lilkely cant. hashiramas clone cant even get by obito in order to pull that off anyway.




> Based on what? Sasuke's aside, it's best feat is cutting the tops off mountains. That doesn't eclipse anything a Bijuudama has done. The mere fact that a Bijuudama vaporized Mokujin, yet Mokujin could fight on par with PS, is proof.


considering that PS never hit the mokujin with its blade, you have no grounds to make this assertion. if the blade of PS were to hit the mokujin directly, it wouldve been chopped apart.

PS chopped off the mountain tops because that is what a sword does. it slices things. that doesnt discredit the power of PS.




> Unless Obito is brain dead, he'll simply destroy Susano'o with a Godudama. No Senjutsu means it gets erased without resistance.


i dont see any reason why hashirama cannot give madara senjutsu chakra, although the very fact that madara did not manifest six paths senjutsu(the combination of six paths chakra and natural energy) leads to the conclusion that the sage chakra is separate from his own reserve.

im guessing that hashirama can transfer sage power directly to susano.
im not sure how preta path would interact with the truthseekers a six paths senjutsu and the rinnegan are portrayed as equal powers with both the truthseekers and preta path being listed as ninjutsu.




> Just like Mokujin and Shinsuusenju got chopped with no effort amirite? Let me rephrase the Rikudo point then. Only people with Rikudo level power, in other words the god tiers, are cutting that tree down.


the shinjus trunk does not defend itself. the mokujin defends itself by parrying its hits and stopping the blade of PS. shinsuusenju can do the same as well as one shot it. 

the trunk of the shinju is not so big that PS cannot cut it. thats ridiculous.





> PS I agree with. The fuck has Mokujin done though. Aside from grabbing a Bijuudama, and tapping Kurama's forehead, it hasn't any strength feats. A weaker version of those same Rasengans were pushing Kurama back.


the databook states that its physical strength could match 100% kurama at VOTE and it has physical strength on the level of PS considering that it could restrain it.





> Since when is PS and Mokujin the same size as the Juubi? If he can oneshot something that took a Bijuudama from the Juubi like a champ with a mere body slam, he will do it do something that can't even take a standard Bijuudama from Kurama.



the black circle is the size of the juubi with its body and tails stretched out.


the juubis body took up a significantly smaller portion of that space than its tails.

both PS and the mokujin match the juubi in size if its tails are ignored.

even if we were to go with the possibility of obitos body slam having enough physical power to destroy the mokujin which i doubt, it wouldnt matter since he cant grab it in the first place.



> No. Not really. Neither can one shot something with Naruto's BM durability.


the attack that took out the kurama avatar doesnt match the power shown from VOTE 1. PS dwarfs 50% kurama, so it isnt blocking any of its attacks with its tails. a direct hit from PS would mutilate the avatar.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 5, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> sauce and nardo didn't have jugo aboard when they fused their mechs.



Yes they did. He was above the forehead jewel.


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## Deer Lord (Feb 5, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Yes they did. He was above the forehead jewel.


You are right. I guess I missed that.
Though it isn't clear if Juugo was providing senjutsu seeing as PS didn't have cure seal marks like the previous form.

Regardless madara should be able to leech off some SM chakra off of hashi with either his unnamed chakra absorption tech or preta path. So the duo's combined mech is sage amped either way.


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## ARGUS (Feb 5, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Hmmm, PS probably can't cover Shinsenjuu.
> 
> But maybe it could cover Mokujin. I wonder if Hashi's SM chakra from Mokujin could somehow connect with PS armor making it SM infused too like how Sasuke's PS sword was seemingly infused with SM simply by covering Naruto's BSM.


Mokujin is utmost fodder infront of Juubito, so even if the above happens, its not doing shit 
Juubito can either dance around its attacks and attack hashirama head on with it, 
or he can grab the structure with his TSB, and obliterate it with a drop slam, 

i also like how people think that PS-Kyuubi alone is superior to Juubito, when the main reason he lost was: 
1. his will was weak, which resulted in his sword being fodder
2. he was focusing too much of his power on the god tree in order to initiate IT 
3. naruto recieving the chakra from the bijuu, allowing him to take the bijuu out of him 

on a full combat, a single juubi dama alone would clown the entire structure, 



> And since Madara's Rinnegan needed Six Path chakra to awaken(which happens when Indra's and Asura's chakra's connect) then he may be able to damage Juubito with Rinnegan jutsus.
> Link removed


Edo Madaras rinnegan is fake, he recieved no six path chakra boost in any of his techniques, 
as shown how his PS was exactly the saame as how it was at VOTE 
and edo madara cant access anywhere near the full potential of the rinnegan, hence why the only jutsu he used was preta, which is clearly not doing shit 



Kai said:


> There was no senjutsu interaction between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke got his senjutsu share from Juugo's cursed seal.


Once Sasuke manifested PS, *there was no indiciation of jugos curse seal *
otherwise* the susanoo woulve had the seals patterns* which it clearly didnt, 

so the only thing that makes sense is that sasuke recieved narutos chakra, during that interval as well as teh senjutsu boost from naruto,, which enabled his PS to counter the sword


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 5, 2015)

I personally doubt Juubito can just roflstomp PS + Mokuton, the latter which destroyed PS + 100% Kurama that could spam multiple bijuudamas + susanoo swords in an instant considering Juubito couldn't roflstomp EMS Sasuke's PS + Kurama Avatar in one hit.  Juubito's strongest attack that was meant to put Sasuke and Naruto to sleep only destroyed Senjutsu Legged V3 Susanoo + Kurama Avatar which is impressive as that has better feats than a Laserdama but not enough to suggest it can blow through Madara's PS + Hashirama's Mokuton, the latter being far more durable, far more.

 Hashirama and Madara also receive help from Tobirama and Minato, so Tobirama tags Juubito, then SM Hashirama targets Juubito's weakness and cripples him considering a normal SM enhanced Rasengan damaged him to the point where Juubito was concerned about blocking his weakpoint.


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## Kai (Feb 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Once Sasuke manifested PS, *there was no indiciation of jugos curse seal *
> otherwise* the susanoo woulve had the seals patterns* which it clearly didnt,
> 
> so the only thing that makes sense is that sasuke recieved narutos chakra, during that interval as well as teh senjutsu boost from naruto,, which enabled his PS to counter the sword


There doesn't have to be pattern indications after the merge. We know Juugo's influence is still there.

Look closely. Juugo is above Naruto and Sasuke after the merge takes place.


Sasuke brings Juugo aboard when he manifests PS.


Why was Juugo brought along, let alone positioned at the top center of  the mech fusion?


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## ARGUS (Feb 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> There doesn't have to be pattern indications after the merge. We know Juugo's influence is still there.
> 
> Look closely. Juugo is above Naruto and Sasuke after the merge takes place.
> 
> ...



good point, 
so sasukes PS was still being boosted by juugos curse seal, added with narutos chakra possibly boosting it as well,


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## Blu-ray (Feb 6, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the point is flying right over your head. whatever mokuton that hashirama used in the panel i posted existed in the same state as the bijudama tree after the explosions went off.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



And what is the evidence this was remnants of Hashirama's Mokuton after the blast, and not the result of the off panel clash between Madara and Hashirama? It's quite obvious that since he and Madara were fighting he'd conjure more would, which would in turn get destroyed when they clash.

Unless Hashirama stopped using wood techniques after the bomb went off for no good reason.



> PS can cut hashiramas mokuton in its entirety as shown in canon.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I specifically noted Mokujin and Shinsuusenju, not lesser Mokuton. Those things don't even come close to Juubito's Mokuton.

It does disprove it, because if a vastly more powerful technique like the quad Juubidama could not destroy the tree in it's entirety, something weaker by massive gap isn't going to cut it down.



> PS having pound for pound more power than bijudama is supported.



By what? Did a Bijuudama fail to damage something that a PS blade managed to cut through? Cause that never happened.



> @bold- hashirama=/=his clone. the clone doesnt have strength that could considered comparable to the real hashiramas full power in any sense. the real hashirama can without a doubt destroy the bijudama tree while his clone lilkely cant. hashiramas clone cant even get by obito in order to pull that off anyway.



Again, based on what? Hashirama did not imply he could destroy it. That is your assumption. The strongest thing Edo Hashi can pull is a Mokujin. If that were enough Naruto and Minato would have simply destroyed the tree.



> considering that PS never hit the mokujin with its blade, you have no grounds to make this assertion. if the blade of PS were to hit the mokujin directly, it wouldve been chopped apart.



Likewise, PS has never actually shown to slice through Mokujin, so you have no basis to assert it can.



> PS chopped off the mountain tops because that is what a sword does. it slices things. that doesnt discredit the power of PS.



I'm the last person to try and discredit PS, but I'm not going to just blindly give it capabilities it has not shown. If PS destroyed something a Bijuudama could not, then we could argue it has less area of effect but a higher concentration of power. But it never did that.



> i dont see any reason why hashirama cannot give madara senjutsu chakra, although the very fact that madara did not manifest six paths senjutsu(the combination of six paths chakra and natural energy) leads to the conclusion that the sage chakra is separate from his own reserve.



He can. I overlooked that fact. My mistake. Still not enough for them to steamroll Juubito however.



> im guessing that hashirama can transfer sage power directly to susano.
> im not sure how preta path would interact with the truthseekers a six paths senjutsu and the rinnegan are portrayed as equal powers with both the truthseekers and preta path being listed as ninjutsu.



Considering what they are, I doubt they can be absorbed. And them being absorbed wouldn't denote equality now would it?



> the shinjus trunk does not defend itself. the mokujin defends itself by parrying its hits and stopping the blade of PS. shinsuusenju can do the same as well as one shot it.
> 
> the trunk of the shinju is not so big that PS cannot cut it. thats ridiculous.



Obito had the Shinjuu go into "attack mode" against the alliance by having the branches convert to wooden dragons. Pretty sure that counts as defending itself. The size doesn't matter. It's the sheer durability.



> the databook states that its physical strength could match 100% kurama at VOTE and it has physical strength on the level of PS considering that it could restrain it.



Which is even more damning. Naruto's BSM with even greater stats than the actual Kurama, landed a direct hit on the Godudama and could not even scratch it.



> the black circle is the size of the juubi with its body and tails stretched out.
> 
> 
> the juubis body took up a significantly smaller portion of that space than its tails.
> ...



I don't even know how you came to such a conclusion so I'll just ignore it.



> even if we were to go with the possibility of obitos body slam having enough physical power to destroy the mokujin which i doubt, it wouldnt matter since he cant grab it in the first place.



Why exactly? What about Mokujin allows it to defy physics in a way to prevent it from being grabbed? What, Obito can't make a big enough hand to grab it?



> the attack that took out the kurama avatar doesnt match the power shown from VOTE 1. PS dwarfs 50% kurama, so it isnt blocking any of its attacks with its tails. a direct hit from PS would mutilate the avatar.



The Juubi vastly exceeds both Hashirama and Madara in power, yet it failed to destroy BM with a single blow. That Bijuumode, now further increasing its durability with Sage Mode, got one shotted.

That is the definition of superior power. PS mutilating the Kurama avatar would mean it has power on par with the Juubi. I'm not about to entertain the level of bullshit.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 6, 2015)

Madara and Hashirama wont be able to capitalyse on Obito's emotions, feelings and regrets, as BSM Naruto did. That duo is superior to BSM Naruto-EMS Sasuke duo, but they will lose eventually, since Obito wont hesitate and will be completely stable with his chakra and mental state.


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## Deer Lord (Feb 6, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> 2. he was focusing too much of his power on the god tree in order to initiate IT


That is also the scenario here.





And one extra point that came to my mind, If madara tries fuck with obito by telling the truth about what happened to rin, what would be the result?


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## Arles Celes (Feb 6, 2015)

Kai said:


> There doesn't have to be pattern indications after the merge. We know Juugo's influence is still there.
> 
> Look closely. Juugo is above Naruto and Sasuke after the merge takes place.
> 
> ...



Most likely for the same reason BM Naruto brought Guy and Kakashi with him when fighting Obito's bijuus. For protection.

And since there are no black marks on Sasuke's PS armor unlike how it was with V3 Susanoo there is no indication that Juugo did anything this time.

Naruto's SM chakra simply mixed with Sasuke's PS giving it SM properties and making CS redundant.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 7, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> And what is the evidence this was remnants of Hashirama's Mokuton after the blast, and not the result of the off panel clash between Madara and Hashirama? It's quite obvious that since he and Madara were fighting he'd conjure more would, which would in turn get destroyed when they clash.
> 
> Unless Hashirama stopped using wood techniques after the bomb went off for no good reason.


the fact that neither are shown to be fighting at that point. madara still has a leftover aura from PS being destroyed.



> I specifically noted Mokujin and Shinsuusenju, not lesser Mokuton. Those things don't even come close to Juubito's Mokuton.
> 
> It does disprove it, because if a vastly more powerful technique like the quad Juubidama could not destroy the tree in it's entirety, something weaker by massive gap isn't going to cut it down.
> 
> ...


what are you talking about? bijudama left hashiramas mokuton in the same state that the tree was in.
if madara can cut hashiramas mokuton despite this, that means that a PS slash has pound for pound more power than bijudama.

this also means that your argument for PS not being able to cut the bijudama tree is moot.




> Again, based on what? Hashirama did not imply he could destroy it. That is your assumption. The strongest thing Edo Hashi can pull is a Mokujin. If that were enough Naruto and Minato would have simply destroyed the tree.


hashiramas clone=/=the real hashirama. the real hashirama couldnt even get to the tree because madara wouldnt let him get by.

he is implied to be able to do something when hashirama tells madara to let him go so he can deal with it and when tobirama asks where hashirama is when the tree is charging the bijidama.

the tree can be destroyed before any bijudama actually charge.



> Likewise, PS has never actually shown to slice through Mokujin, so you have no basis to assert it can.


the blades of PS can slice shinsuusenjus arms.

*Spoiler*: __ 







every single one of shinsuusenjus hands are at least the size of the mokujin.


there isnt really anything that those blades cant slice with a direct hit.



> I'm the last person to try and discredit PS, but I'm not going to just blindly give it capabilities it has not shown. If PS destroyed something a Bijuudama could not, then we could argue it has less area of effect but a higher concentration of power. But it never did that.


PS completely sliced through the same mokuton that not even the juubis bijudama could destroy in its entirety. thats enough conclusive evidence.




> Considering what they are, I doubt they can be absorbed. And them being absorbed wouldn't denote equality now would it?


which why i said i dont know how they would interact, since both the truthseekers and preta path are listed as ninjutsu.




> Obito had the Shinjuu go into "attack mode" against the alliance by having the branches convert to wooden dragons. Pretty sure that counts as defending itself. The size doesn't matter. It's the sheer durability.


the shinju is not so big that PS cannot chop it down. the shinju isnt durable enough to tank a slash from PS either.

*Spoiler*: __ 












> Which is even more damning. Naruto's BSM with even greater stats than the actual Kurama, landed a direct hit on the Godudama and could not even scratch it.


since when does BSM narutos kurama avatar have greater strength than 100% kurama whom has over double the size and double the chakra?

that avatar literally did nothing that 50% kurama could not, except damage truthseekers because of senjutsu.




> I don't even know how you came to such a conclusion so I'll just ignore it.


the black circle in the first scan is where hashiramas gates are, so that is where the juubi was. the red circle is the location of PS and the mokujin.

the second scan showed that the majority of that space was taken up by the juubis tails, not its main body, which leads to the conclusion that the juubi, PS and mokujin are all relatively the same size if the juubis tails are discounted.

there isnt any reason to simply ignore my argument.




> Why exactly? What about Mokujin allows it to defy physics in a way to prevent it from being grabbed? What, Obito can't make a big enough hand to grab it?


correct. obitos feats dont allow him to make a big enough hand to grab the mokujin in the first place, so any discussion on the mokujins durability is irrelevant.




> The Juubi vastly exceeds both Hashirama and Madara in power, yet it failed to destroy BM with a single blow. That Bijuumode, now further increasing its durability with Sage Mode, got one shotted.
> 
> That is the definition of superior power. PS mutilating the Kurama avatar would mean it has power on par with the Juubi. I'm not about to entertain the level of bullshit.


then all you need to one shot narutos biju mode is power on par with obitos slam, which both hashirama and madara have. obitos slam did the same damage to sasuke behind his V3 susano, so obitos slam isnt even relevant on the power scale.


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## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the fact that neither are shown to be fighting at that point. madara still has a leftover aura from PS being destroyed.
> 
> 
> what are you talking about? bijudama left hashiramas mokuton in the same state that the tree was in.
> ...



keep up the good fight kami sama


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 7, 2015)

I think Hashi and Mads would do better since they were the better team at the time, but naruto and sauce really beat juubito via plot. WIthout plot help I'm unsure they would of won. Hashi and Mads would do better than Naruto and Sauce could of done no external factors counted though IMO.


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## ARGUS (Feb 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> That is also the scenario here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



then madara would be molested by Obito much worse than how he wanted to molest Rin,


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## TheGreen1 (Feb 11, 2015)

Madara and Hashirama die horribly easy. This is really no contest. Plus, the Truth Seeking Balls will destroy their Edo Forms, no sealing needed. Obito could be reading a manga or doing crosswords while he takes on these two and wins.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 11, 2015)

Naruto and Sasuke were helped. 

You think they'd be able to take Juubito and the Shinju without the entire alliance taking the latter?

Hashirama and Madara would be taking on the Shinju, which got them running AND Juubito, who Hashirama admitted was stronger than himself.

I don't see the Edos winning.


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## Ashi (Feb 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto and Sasuke were helped.
> 
> You think they'd be able to take Juubito and the Shinju without the entire alliance taking the latter?
> 
> ...



Who said they were zombies


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 12, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> good point,
> so sasukes PS was still being boosted by juugos curse seal, *added with narutos chakra possibly boosting it as wel*l,



Smh.....No. 



Kai said:


> There doesn't have to be pattern indications after the merge. We know Juugo's influence is still there.
> 
> Look closely. Juugo is above Naruto and Sasuke after the merge takes place.
> 
> ...



Nope.

1. The markings are a necessity. The markings show Jugo's chakra reacting to Sasuke's chakra. If that was going in those scans was Jugo powering Susanoo, then you'd see the markings. No reason why you wouldn't.

2. Sasuke brought Jugo along because Jugo is on the battlefield, and would obviously need some kind of protection or would need to be out of the way. Putting him in Susanoo does that best.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 12, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Smh.....No.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Naruto was in BSM. I think its logical to say that 50% Kurama/PS merge was fused with Senjutsu in order to harm Juubito.


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 12, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Naruto was in BSM. I think its logical to say that 50% Kurama/PS merge was fused with Senjutsu in order to harm Juubito.



I know. That's my point.


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## Kai (Feb 12, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> 1. The markings are a necessity. The markings show Jugo's chakra reacting to Sasuke's chakra. If that was going in those scans was Jugo powering Susanoo, then you'd see the markings. No reason why you wouldn't.
> 
> 2. Sasuke brought Jugo along because Jugo is on the battlefield, and would obviously need some kind of protection or would need to be out of the way. Putting him in Susanoo does that best.


1. No, it doesn't have to be. It's only natural that Juugo's influence is still there. We already know he's fueling Sasuke.

2. So Juugo needed protection but he was brought along for the final clash? He needed protection because he was vital for Sasuke's senjutsu. Everything about Juugo's placement of the fusion indicates that, ever since Sasuke has brought Juugo along into battle.


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## Empathy (Feb 12, 2015)

If Madara could coat _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ in perfect _Susanoo_, and Obito experienced the same wavering in resolve he did with Naruto, then theoretically they could emulate the strength of Naruto and Sasuke's final attack, albeit marginally weaker. Even then, they'd still have to beat Obito in a tug-of-war when Naruto and Sasuke had the whole alliance backing them; _Shinsuusenju_ is too big to be protected by perfect _Susanoo_, so that isn't feasible either. Even if Madara could summon the full Kyuubi, I don't think Hashirama could apply _Sennin Modo_ to it. Hashirama and Madara lose.


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> 1. No, it doesn't have to be. It's only natural that Juugo's influence is still there. We already know he's fueling Sasuke.



No we don't. It was explicitly explained how we know Jugo is powering his Susanoo, and said reaction was absent. I don't know what you are going on here, but nothing implies that Jugo was still fueling Sasuke's Susanoo. Nothing at all. 

"It's only natural" isn't an argument. Why would it just "be natural"?



> 2. So Juugo needed protection but he was brought along for the final clash? He needed protection because he was vital for Sasuke's senjutsu. Everything about Juugo's placement of the fusion indicates that, ever since Sasuke has brought Juugo along into battle.



Literally nothing even begins to imply that Jugo was doing anything to Susanoo. Literally nothing. His placement is irrelevant. He could've been at the top or the back or the bottom and it wouldn't matter, because the markings which are a result of Jugo infusing his chakra into the Susanoo are completely absent.

Sasuke got his Senjutsu from Naruto's Avatar, not from Jugo. That is clear as day.


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## Kai (Feb 13, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No we don't. It was explicitly explained how we know Jugo is powering his Susanoo, and said reaction was absent. I don't know what you are going on here, but nothing implies that Jugo was still fueling Sasuke's Susanoo. Nothing at all.
> 
> "It's only natural" isn't an argument. Why would it just "be natural"?


Just because the markings weren't shown anymore is a rather weak argument. So what if we don't have visual confirmation of it after the fusion? Juugo is Sasuke's source of senjutsu and we should *inherently know this* instead of taking it upon ourselves to make rash conclusions.

It's natural Juugo continued to feed Sasuke senjutsu. It's a feeble interpretation to take upon ourselves to believe he simply dropped giving Sasuke senjutsu when it's so critical to understand why Sasuke brought Juugo along with him and Naruto.



			
				KeyofMiracles said:
			
		

> Literally nothing even begins to imply that Jugo was doing anything to Susanoo. Literally nothing. His placement is irrelevant. He could've been at the top or the back or the bottom and it wouldn't matter, because the markings which are a result of Jugo infusing his chakra into the Susanoo are completely absent.
> 
> Sasuke got his Senjutsu from Naruto's Avatar, not from Jugo. That is clear as day.


We're given no reason to believe Juugo stopped giving Sasuke senjutsu. I don't buy it. It's clear why Sasuke brought Juugo along and placed him at the top center just as he has since his senjutsu supply started. Juugo's placement on the fusion shows his necessity.


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 13, 2015)

Kai;52877132[B said:
			
		

> ]Just because the markings weren't shown anymore is a rather weak argument. [/B]So what if we don't have visual confirmation of it after the fusion? Juugo is Sasuke's source of senjutsu and we should *inherently know this* instead of taking it upon ourselves to make rash conclusions.



Are you kidding me with this? It's not a weak argument when those markings were *explicitly *stated and shown to be the reaction when Jugo feeds his chakra to Sasuke's Susanoo. You are disregarding the cold hard tangible evidence of Jugo not giving Sasuke Senjutsu based on what? Your belief that he continued to feed him Senjutsu? Why exactly aren't the markings necessary? 

You literally have no argument here. 



> It's natural Juugo continued to feed Sasuke senjutsu. It's a feeble interpretation to take upon ourselves to believe he simply dropped giving Sasuke senjutsu when it's so critical to understand why Sasuke brought Juugo along with him and Naruto.


Except this is one thing you are failing to understand. *Naruto *himself has Senjutsu. *Naruto's **Avatar *contains Senjutsu. *Sasuke and Naruto* merged their *Avatars*. Thus Sasuke got Naruto's Senjutsu applied to his Susanoo. Jugo was only brought along because he was right there. Makes no sense to leave him behind on the ground, unprotected, instead of taking him along.



> We're given no reason to believe Juugo stopped giving Sasuke senjutsu. I don't buy it. It's clear why Sasuke brought Juugo along and placed him at the top center just as he has since his senjutsu supply started. Juugo's placement on the fusion shows his necessity.



Hmm, I can give you cold hard reason why he stopped giving him Senjutsu.
Link removed

Markings were not there. It doesn't get any simpler than that. 

Except it doesn't. Jugo's placement shows literally nothing. Your only argument as to why Jugo was supplying Senjutsu is because he was at the top of the Susanoo. That literally makes no sense.

If anything, If Jugo was as important as you claim he was, he'd be in the diamond with Naruto and Sasuke, which is clearly the most central spot in the fusion.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> Just because the markings weren't shown anymore is a rather weak argument. So what if we don't have visual confirmation of it after the fusion? Juugo is Sasuke's source of senjutsu and we should *inherently know this* instead of taking it upon ourselves to make rash conclusions.



 Except Naruto's chakra can connect to the Shinobi Alliance which is clear as Minato was able to warp them away which implies Naruto's chakra can "adapt" to Sasuke's chakra and apply Senjutsu. There's no hint towards Jugo applying Senjutsu to Sasuke's Susanoo or it would've been clear.



> It's natural Juugo continued to feed Sasuke senjutsu. It's a feeble interpretation to take upon ourselves to believe he simply dropped giving Sasuke senjutsu when it's so critical to understand why Sasuke brought Juugo along with him and Naruto.



 It's also critical that Sasuke never told Jugo to hop on while he did here:

 Link removed

 Meaning he needed Jugo here while he didn't during PS + Kurama formation or he would've told Jugo to hop on.

 And Jugo didn't apply Senjutsu to Sauske's Susanoo by just walking in it. He had to actually activate his Natural Chakra and apply it to Sasuke's which was never shown with PS yet Kishi went through the effort of PS forming with Kurama Avatar to show the new level of power they were reaching.




> We're given no reason to believe Juugo stopped giving Sasuke senjutsu. I don't buy it. It's clear why Sasuke brought Juugo along and placed him at the top center just as he has since his senjutsu supply started. Juugo's placement on the fusion shows his necessity.



 It's clear Sasuke didn't need Jugo. It really doesn't matter whether Jugo was on his Susanoo or not, Jugo just happened to be there at the right time.


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