# Ace vs Doflamingo



## Blanco (Feb 18, 2014)

Location: Mock town

Who would win?


----------



## Shanks (Feb 18, 2014)

Regardless of strength and combat abilities, based on Ace's attitude and personality, he will most likely be caught by Dofla's parasite quite easily.


----------



## Blanco (Feb 18, 2014)

Sabo said:


> Regardless of strength and combat abilities, based on Ace's attitude and personality, he will most likely be caught by Dofla's parasite quite easily.



Couldn't he turn into fire to escape?


----------



## Goomoonryong (Feb 18, 2014)

Aces fruit may be a good counter to parasite, but Dofla's still superior in every category he wins mid diff.


----------



## MartyMcFly1 (Feb 18, 2014)

I say Ace takes it high difficulty.


----------



## Freechoice (Feb 18, 2014)

Ace takes this.


----------



## Shanks (Feb 18, 2014)

BUGGATl said:


> Couldn't he turn into fire to escape?



Sanji was not capable of moving and using hells memory to escape, so I'll give the Benefit of the doubt to Dofla.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 18, 2014)

Ace is not beating Doflamingo LMAO.


----------



## Freechoice (Feb 18, 2014)

It's very hard to convey sarcasm through text.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 18, 2014)

Doflamingo wins high difficulty


----------



## Moneyshot (Feb 18, 2014)

Dofla mid diff


----------



## Freechoice (Feb 18, 2014)

Lol mid diff.


----------



## J★J♥ (Feb 18, 2014)

Doflamingo could have killed Ace with his his left hand while he was taking a piss with his right.


----------



## Blanco (Feb 18, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Doflamingo could have killed Ace with his his left hand while he was taking a piss with his right.



Can he dodge Entei while taking a piss?


----------



## TheWiggian (Feb 18, 2014)

DD mid diff max.


----------



## J★J♥ (Feb 18, 2014)

BUGGATl said:


> Can he dodge Entei while taking a piss?



He can extinguish Entei by taking a piss


----------



## RF (Feb 18, 2014)

Ehh, I guess Doflamingo high to extreme difficulty.


----------



## Kishido (Feb 18, 2014)

Ace high dif


----------



## blueframe01 (Feb 18, 2014)

whoever wins this will do so with a lot of difficulty IMO.


----------



## Orca (Feb 18, 2014)

Doflamingo very high diff.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 18, 2014)

Really can't see Ace winning this

Also, it is sad to see how Doflamingo has been downplayed more and more 

At one point, it was seen as plausible for him to be either marginally superior or equal to Jozu.

Then Vista level....then perhaps weaker...

and now, Ace doesn't even need extreme difficulty to beat him?...it's a shame...


----------



## Canute87 (Feb 18, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Doflamingo very high diff.



That sounds about right.


----------



## punisher223 (Feb 18, 2014)

Could go either way in my opinion. Regardless, it will range anywhere from high-extreme diff.


----------



## J★J♥ (Feb 18, 2014)

Holy shit


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 18, 2014)

Doflamingo mid diff.


----------



## Imagine (Feb 18, 2014)

Ace gets the piss whipped out of him.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 18, 2014)

DD high diff. ace's powers are a good match for DD's, but DD still takes it nonetheless.


----------



## tanman (Feb 18, 2014)

Doflamingo high difficulty.
The only reason he has so much difficulty is because Ace's DF has a natural advantage. People on Ace's level would generally give DD less difficulty. But Ace would get wrecked by DD's upper level Haki laced moved and Doflamingo himself is no more vulnerable to fire than the next guy who can take a huge DJ without a scratch.


----------



## Blue Cheese (Feb 18, 2014)

doflamingo should win, he handle sanji burning kick ok so he can survive fire fist but very hard fight.

i say this because i think with haki his strings can survive the fire but if string are useless than maybe ace can win


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 18, 2014)

> Doflamingo himself is no more vulnerable to fire than the next guy who can take a huge DJ without a scratch.



I agree with the point that Doflamingo showed extremely impressive heat resistance. It's a bit difficult to directly compare a move which is based around striking with hard, small objects (legs) that are greatly heated up to massive waves or objects formed out of pure fire though.

Doflamingo should take this with mid or borderline high difficulty. Ace was broken by pre-gura Teach who was at the very most around as strong as Doflamingo. While he might have given Teach high difficulty, we saw that Blackbeard was his usual arrogant self and got himself hit by multiple of Ace's attacks before he even made a move. Doflamingo is far more intelligent and to the point and will not mess around and has shown rather well that he knows when to not underestimate his foes. Ace will give him a proper challenge but as far as I can see Doflamingo has already shown both the ability to reasonably comfortably deal with anything that can be thrown at him (save maybe Entei, but that should be entirely possible to dodge for a man who can latch on to clouds with ease and also leap massive distances) and enough firepower to bring Ace down. His strings have been shown to work just fine on Logia users as far as cutting them goes though he probably wouldn't be able to paralyze Ace who could burn the strings with extreme heat.


----------



## Shiny (Feb 18, 2014)

doflaming mid diff,ace was unimpressive


----------



## Ghost (Feb 18, 2014)

Dofla high/extreme.


----------



## Rob (Feb 18, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Doflamingo wins high difficulty



Cute.

Look at you being generous.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 18, 2014)

Doflamingo high diff. I'm being very generous here.


----------



## Reekee (Feb 18, 2014)

Doflamingo mid difficulty.


----------



## Captain Altintop (Feb 19, 2014)

Ace isn't noticeably above M3, so DD mid or mid-high diffs.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Feb 19, 2014)

Jesus the bandwagoners in this thread. 

Ace takes it high difficulty and im being generous. I fully expect Ace to have been stronger, faster and with better haki. 

We are all expecting Luffy to take it with only 2 years on the sea, when with a comparable growth rate and a better fruit Ace spent 3, 1 of which was spent shitting on New World captains and their crews. Can't wait till we see Teach/Ace flashbacks and i'm proved right.


----------



## Gulbana (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't see Ace's flames burning strings(probably Entei).DD takes this.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Doflamingo takes this. Although he has a little heat resistance on the basis that he tanked sanji's heated diable jambei attack, the attack itself that he tanked isn't an attack that is based on burning the opponent, albeit it has to do more with brute force. Thus, he is perfectly susceptible to heat based attacks and will endure a bunch of damage depending on how big the fire is hitting him. Clinging his strings on Ace's body to manipulate him and toy would him would work and will get him closer to victory and ace has little to no chance of escaping from Doflamingo's grasp because other physical monster such a Jozu who is leagues above ace in terms of physical strength escaped to no avail. Ace cannot control his body because the strings act as an obstacle to his body from moving beyond the string's grasp so his best chance would be to concentrate his fire all over his body and direct them towards the flames and hope that they'll singe... I don't know if they'd burn upon contact with Ace's fire but I am guessing not... so the win goes to doflaming.


----------



## Lmao (Feb 19, 2014)

lol heat resistance

Vergo, someone a good deal below Doflamingo, was also hit by Sanji's DJ kicks to the face even without any major burns, or any burns at all. Why is Doflamingo being able to do the same even being considered impressive?


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Lmao said:


> lol heat resistance
> 
> Vergo, someone a good deal below Doflamingo, was also hit by Sanji's DJ kicks to the face even without any major burns, or any burns at all. Why is Doflamingo being able to do the same even being considered impressive?



You're kidding me, right? Someone who is capable of tanking a heat based attack that is not necessarily a move that relies on burning the opponent for causing damage is nevertheless a person who has adequate heat resistance. However that much resistance will not guarantee immunity to ace's fire. I already explained this. Because it is impressive. I don't bring vergo into this topic because he is irrelevant here.


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Where is this obscene Doflamingo fanwank coming from? Ace's DF makes him intangible. He has the natural advantage plus it's been confirmed he has Haki. With what little information we have, I'd say it'd be an even fight.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Where is this obscene Doflamingo fanwank coming from? Ace's DF makes him intangible. He has the natural advantage plus it's been confirmed he has Haki. With what little information we have, I'd say it'd be an even fight.



First of all, it's never been confirmed from oda in the manga that Ace has color of armanent. You've made up this information. Second of all, to make the thread partial as to the two contestants, logia intangibility is off by default.


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Mirage said:


> First of all, it's never been confirmed from oda in the manga that Ace has color of armanent. You've made up this information. Second of all, to make the thread partial as to the two contestants, logia intangibility is off by default.




Name one character with Haōshoku Haki that doesn't have the other two armaments. The OP should clarify logia intangibility.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

It's confirmed that he has CotC. No other color of haki has been hinted to or shown thus far. He also used it inadvertently when he was a kid. The manga hasn't proven anything other than that, besides people making up things to suit there agenda.


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> It's confirmed that he has CotC. No other color of haki has been hinted to or shown thus far. He also used it inadvertently when he was a kid. The manga hasn't proven anything other than that, besides people making up things to suit there agenda.



Apply some common sense, please. Every noteworthy character (with combat ability) that has braved the New World knows at least one type of Haki. With the exception of Ace, every character with Haōshoku Haki has been confirmed to at least have Busōshoku Haki. The fact that Ace was never shown to use Haki doesn't mean that he couldn't. The manga heavily imply that he can use it.

Ask yourself, do you really think Whitebeard's third in command would not know how to utilise his Haki abilities when those below him can?

You're welcome to exploit technicalities (i.e. Ace not having been _shown_ to use Haki despite what the manga implies) to suit your argument, but that would be throwing out common sense and logic out of the window, in which case I will have no interest in continuing this debate.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Name one character with Haōshoku Haki that doesn't have the other two armaments. The OP should clarify logia intangibility.



Allow me to refute your inane argument. Luffy in the pre timeskip had haoshoku no haki and could only use it at times when the situation poised him to but could not use it on his own will (similar how ace couldn't use it on his own free will), yet he was not able to use either color of armanent or color of observation at that time  According to this logic, ace does not have CoA and CoO. Please don't use an arbitrary excuse to not have to deal with my argument and make some excuse that doesn't address to what I just said. You have not brought any evidence of which proves Ace's mastery over Color of armanent. You've speculated that he can utilize it but speculation isn't a valid way method of proving how and why a person can make use of it. Furthermore, during his fight against blackbeard, Ace had many opportunities to display his use of the Color of Armanent but it was not shown by the author that he can use it because he simply does not have it. You have no evidence for this and your endeavors of trying to prove ace having color of armanent is not acceptable here. Either bring evidence from the manga that shows Ace coating his arm in haki, or concede defeat.

Op logia intangibility is off by default.


----------



## warismydestiny (Feb 19, 2014)

Than why didnt he use it against smoker or blackbeard?
The monster trio learnt haki at a young age but they are the exception not the rule(future pirate kings top 3 afterall) theyre the youngest supernovas i believe. I think even if Ace had learned to control haki at age 22 he wouldve probably been considered exceptional.


----------



## Doma (Feb 19, 2014)

Ace mid-diffs. His fire should give him the advantage over someone who fights with strings as well as just being on a stronger level in general.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Apply some common sense, please. Every noteworthy character (with combat ability) that has braved the New World knows at least one type of Haki. With the exception of Ace, every character with Haōshoku Haki has been confirmed to at least have Busōshoku Haki. The fact that Ace was never shown to use Haki doesn't mean that he couldn't. The manga heavily imply that he can use it.
> 
> Ask yourself, do you really think Whitebeard's third in command would not know how to utilise his Haki abilities when those below him can?
> 
> You're welcome to exploit technicalities (i.e. Ace not having been _shown_ to use Haki despite what the manga implies) to suit your argument, but that would be throwing out common sense and logic out of the window, in which case I will have no interest in continuing this debate.



Ask yourself this, was it shown or stated in the manga from the author that a pirate who sought to become a whitebeard commander must initially be aware of haki and make use of it? It was not. Therefore, any interpretation of thereof is moot unless Oda, the author, stated those claims. Wait, your assumption that ace has haki relies on the basis that he roamed the new world? Lola in thriller bark noted that she went to the new world yet she's shown no use of haki. 

Whether others below ace have shown the ability to use haki does not validate your claim of which you stated that he has haki as a  fact. Evidence must be brought for the purpose of proving your claims. Those evidence can be brought in the form of a character statement in the manga that states that ace has Haki or Oda stressing his point that he can make use of either Color of observation and Color of armanent. 

The manga never implied anything about ace having Haki. You're just making this up just to give ace more credit of winning against Doflamingo.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

warismydestiny said:


> Than why didnt he use it against smoker or blackbeard?
> The monster trio learnt haki at a young age but they are the exception not the rule(future pirate kings top 3 afterall) theyre the youngest supernovas i believe. I think even if Ace had learned to control haki at age 22 he wouldve probably been considered exceptional.




This guy knows what he's saying ^


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> *Apply some common sense, please*. Every noteworthy character (with combat ability) that has braved the New World knows at least one type of Haki. With the exception of Ace, every character with Haōshoku Haki has been confirmed to at least have Busōshoku Haki. The fact that Ace was never shown to use Haki doesn't mean that he couldn't. The manga heavily imply that he can use it.
> 
> Ask yourself, do you really think Whitebeard's third in command would not know how to utilise his Haki abilities when those below him can?
> 
> You're welcome to exploit technicalities (i.e. Ace not having been _shown_ to use Haki despite what the manga implies) to suit your argument, but that would be *throwing out common sense* and logic out of the window, in which case I will have no interest in continuing this debate.



Yet he hasn't used it so he doesn't have it. Mihawk even though he hasn't showed it trained Zoro and Zoro has haki and since Mihawk taught Zoro, Mihawk has haki. Ace has no such thing to help him. It's alright if you don't want to continue it. It simply proves that you failed to show good enough evidence and are extremely condescending in posts in the bold. I have no interest in talking to condescending individuals. Robin knew about haki yet she doesn't have it.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Yet he hasn't used it so he doesn't have it. Mihawk even though he hasn't showed it trained Zoro and Zoro has haki and since Mihawk taught Zoro, Mihawk has haki. Ace has no such thing to help him. It's alright if you don't want to continue it. It simply proves that you failed to show good enough evidence and are extremely condescending in posts in the bold. I have no interest in talking to condescending individuals. Robin knew about haki yet she doesn't have it.



 this guy knows what's up too.


----------



## Doma (Feb 19, 2014)

You guys are being kind of ridiculous saying Ace had no haki. I realize he never showed it, but that's just the way things were pre-skip. The only reason we know most top-tiers have haki is because they hurt logias, someone mentioned it, or they were marines above the rank of VA.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

The Smoker thing was early, I agree but at MF he could have tried it against Akainu and Akainu might have said your haki and df aren't strong enough or something to the effect of that.


----------



## warismydestiny (Feb 19, 2014)

Nobodys saying he didnt have it just that he couldnt control it. Which is confirmed to be true since in his fight with smoker something along the lines of "fire and smoke cant hurt each other" was said and if he could control his haki he wouldve been able to hurt the smoke.Otherwise that would be a pretty big inconsistency if you guys wanna just rub it off as being something early on when haki wasnt thought of yet.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

We didn't really see haki used around that time. Oda only showed COtC. One could argue otherwise but an SBS could help.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Doma said:


> You guys are being kind of ridiculous saying Ace had no haki. I realize he never showed it, but that's just the way things were pre-skip. The only reason we know most top-tiers have haki is because they hurt logias, someone mentioned it, or they were marines above the rank of VA.



We're ridiculous because we know the difference between a fact and speculation? okay.. The only confirmed haki that Ace had was the Emperor's haki. Beyond that, I don't know. It will always remain untold on whether he had haki or not and further arguments that are made for the purpose of proving that he had color of armanent will remain speculation that cannot be brought up as an argument to prove that he can use it. Yes, Ace had Conquror's Haki, but he wasn't able to control it, unlike Luffy who had Rayleigh to teach him how. Having the potential to soon be capable of mastering the best haki among the 3 kinds of it doesn't mean that you're able to use color of armanent. Luffy's case was akin to Ace's in the pre time skip; He was a potential haki user and often in some circumstances, he exploited the use of it yet he wasn't capable of utilizing the other types of haki. As others have mentioned, there were various circumstances where ace should made use of Color of armament because it was the only method for him to use to injure another logia user. Your justification for this is that ?Haki? wasn't thought up at that time which is a somewhat reasonable explanation. It does not prove that he does have haki, it just explains that he did not have it at that time for said reason. In other words, he does not have it for now until oda states otherwise. No amount of your opinionated beliefs will remotely come close to proving that he does have haki.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

*Must spread before repping Mirage again*


----------



## Doma (Feb 19, 2014)

warismydestiny said:


> Nobodys saying he didnt have it just that he couldnt control it. Which is confirmed to be true since in his fight with smoker something along the lines of "fire and smoke cant hurt each other" was said and if he could control his haki he wouldve been able to hurt the smoke.Otherwise that would be a pretty big inconsistency if you guys wanna just rub it off as being something early on when haki wasnt thought of yet.



Well first off, Ace didn't say that. He said something like "I'm fire, you're smoke. You don't stand a chance here."

And secondly, it was early on in the manga and it's likely Oda hadn't even really put enough thought into the workings of haki to start showing it off more than a decade before he's going to explain it. And if their was any actual fight, it was off-paneled. All we saw was Ace protecting Luffy from Smoker's punch and then his comment. 



Mirage said:


> We're ridiculous because we know the difference between a fact and speculation? okay.. The only confirmed haki that Ace had was the Emperor's haki. Beyond that, I don't know. It will always remain untold on whether he had haki or not and further arguments that are made for the purpose of proving that he had color of armanent will remain speculation that cannot be brought up as an argument to prove that he can use it. Yes, Ace had Conquror's Haki, but he wasn't able to control it, unlike Luffy who had Rayleigh to teach him how. Having the potential to soon be capable of mastering the best haki among the 3 kinds of it doesn't mean that you're able to use color of armanent. Luffy's case was akin to Ace's in the pre time skip; He was a potential haki user and often in some circumstances, he exploited the use of it yet he wasn't capable of utilizing the other types of haki. As others have mentioned, there were various circumstances where ace should made use of Color of armament because it was the only method for him to use to injure another logia user. Your justification for this is that ?Haki? wasn't thought up at that time which is a somewhat reasonable explanation. It does not prove that he does have haki, it just explains that he did not have it at that time for said reason. In other words, he does not have it for now until oda states otherwise. No amount of your opinionated beliefs will remotely come close to proving that he does have haki.


 
I never once said it was a fact that Ace has haki, because no, it's technically not. It's still ridiculous to say he doesn't have it though. Same way it's ridiculous to say someone like Mihawk or Kaidou don't have it. It would make absolutely no sense at all for Oda to make Ace incapable of using haki. Ace was the epitome of a strong-willed person. The idea that someone so strong and with so much potential never learned haki despite spending a year or so living with some of the best haki users in the world is ridiculous.


----------



## Orca (Feb 19, 2014)

While it is true that ace didn't show CoA, it is asinine to think that one of WB's top commanders who was soloing New world crews of Doma's level to not have basic CoA. In a world where fodder like tashigi had it.


----------



## Fiddlesticks (Feb 19, 2014)

If people think Ace actually wins this I am deeply concerned.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

Vista would get beat by DD. Maybe even Jozu too. Ace winning. No thanks.


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Mirage said:


> Allow me to refute your inane argument. Luffy in the pre timeskip had haoshoku no haki and could only use it at times when the situation poised him to but could not use it on his own will (similar how ace couldn't use it on his own free will), yet he was not able to use either color of armanent or color of observation at that time  According to this logic, ace does not have CoA and CoO. Please don't use an arbitrary excuse to not have to deal with my argument and make some excuse that doesn't address to what I just said. You have not brought any evidence of which proves Ace's mastery over Color of armanent. You've speculated that he can utilize it but speculation isn't a valid way method of proving how and why a person can make use of it. Furthermore, during his fight against blackbeard, Ace had many opportunities to display his use of the Color of Armanent but it was not shown by the author that he can use it because he simply does not have it. You have no evidence for this and your endeavors of trying to prove ace having color of armanent is not acceptable here. Either bring evidence from the manga that shows Ace coating his arm in haki, or concede defeat.
> 
> Op logia intangibility is off by default.



Luffy has always had CoA and CoO, he simply hadn't awoken those abilities. CotC was the first one he awoke, the rest came after. 

Don't accuse me of using arbitrary excuses when that is exactly what you are doing. Do you even know what the word arbitrary means, because you are refusing to acknowledge that is extremely likely Ace was able to use his Haki. When you have C tier characters like Tashigi using CoA and you try to peddle this bullshit on a cheap absence of proof is proof of absence argument that doesn't hold a drop of water.

This kind of shit is a waste of my time.



warismydestiny said:


> Than why didnt he use it against smoker or blackbeard?
> The monster trio learnt haki at a young age but they are the exception not the rule(future pirate kings top 3 afterall) theyre the youngest supernovas i believe. I think even if Ace had learned to control haki at age 22 he wouldve probably been considered exceptional.



Ace clearly was not there to pick a fight. If he did he wouldn't have run. We don't know if he used it against Blackbeard or not.

Also, both fights took place during time which Oda was only hinting at Haki without explicitly referring to it or talking about it. It's like characters like Rob Lucci had Haki also though it was never stated. Everyone was saying it about Garp because it was confirmed all VA+ know Haki.



Mirage said:


> Ask yourself this, was it shown or stated in the manga from the author that a pirate who sought to become a whitebeard commander must initially be aware of haki and make use of it? It was not. Therefore, any interpretation of thereof is moot unless Oda, the author, stated those claims. Wait, your assumption that ace has haki relies on the basis that he roamed the new world? Lola in thriller bark noted that she went to the new world yet she's shown no use of haki.
> 
> Whether others below ace have shown the ability to use haki does not validate your claim of which you stated that he has haki as a  fact. Evidence must be brought for the purpose of proving your claims. Those evidence can be brought in the form of a character statement in the manga that states that ace has Haki or Oda stressing his point that he can make use of either Color of observation and Color of armanent.
> 
> The manga never implied anything about ace having Haki. You're just making this up just to give ace more credit of winning against Doflamingo.



Again with this shit. You go ahead and pretend the shit you're trying to shovel doesn't stink, but like I said in my earlier post, I have no inclination of entertaining any kind of bullshit like this that has zero regard for common sense or logic.



Slenderman said:


> Yet he hasn't used it so he doesn't have it. Mihawk even though he hasn't showed it trained Zoro and Zoro has haki and since Mihawk taught Zoro, Mihawk has haki. Ace has no such thing to help him. It's alright if you don't want to continue it. It simply proves that you failed to show good enough evidence and are extremely condescending in posts in the bold. I have no interest in talking to condescending individuals. Robin knew about haki yet she doesn't have it.



You're making some assumptions of your own here. Who said Mihawk taught Zoro how to use Haki? That's the logical outcome but we didn't see it, so he doesn't have it, right?

There is no evidence, but only a fool would take absence of proof as proof of absence.



Doma said:


> You guys are being kind of ridiculous saying Ace had no haki. I realize he never showed it, but that's just the way things were pre-skip. The only reason we know most top-tiers have haki is because they hurt logias, someone mentioned it, or they were marines above the rank of VA.



I think they're allergic to common sense and logic.



warismydestiny said:


> Nobodys saying he didnt have it just that he couldnt control it. Which is confirmed to be true since in his fight with smoker something along the lines of "fire and smoke cant hurt each other" was said and if he could control his haki he wouldve been able to hurt the smoke.Otherwise that would be a pretty big inconsistency if you guys wanna just rub it off as being something early on when haki wasnt thought of yet.



Ace was shown not to have control over his Haki when he first discovered it as a child. To suggest he never learned to control it later in life is absolutely ridiculous given how it is pretty much a must to survive in the New World. Hell, Haōshoko users like Luffy, Rayleigh and Blackbeard have been shown to sense Haki in others. Are you really going to suggest Ace simply forgot about this Haki? That he became one of the most influential figures amongst one of the strongest crews, if not the strongest crew, in the either world without mastery over Haki, even though those below him did know how to use it? 

Come the fuck on. This shit is getting pathetic real quick.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Doma said:


> Well first off, Ace didn't say that. He said something like "I'm fire, you're smoke. You don't stand a chance here."
> 
> And secondly, it was early on in the manga and it's likely Oda hadn't even really put enough thought into the workings of haki to start showing it off more than a decade before he's going to explain it. And if their was any actual fight, it was off-paneled. All we saw was Ace protecting Luffy from Smoker's punch and then his comment.
> 
> ...




You claimed that ace not having haki is ridiculous, therefore you obviously are of the opinion that he can utilize haki without specifying proof for your contention. Nice contradiction. Your argument pertains to speculation and has to do with you bringing up characters that weren't even shown in the manga to try and prove your claim that Ace has haki. Other character's that weren't confirmed of having haki but are speculated of having it because of their rank does not imply that Ace himself must have haki.  You keep on rambling about how illiterate it would be of Ace to not have haki but you don't take in consideration that it may just not have been convenient for Oda to give an ability to ace that does not play out with his respective ability that is his fire fire fruit. Same thing is applicable for the notion that you mentioned that he must have it because he is powerful; He's already powerful without haki and Oda clearly expressed his loathe of Ace having haki by simply not giving him the ability to use Haki. You have no proof to suggest that he has, whereas I have tons of facts that validate the statement of ace not having haki as a fact. Mihawk having haki is an arguable argument and the argument that he does not isn't redundant as it stems from the fact that he was unable to injure buggy in the pre time skip. There is still an air of ambiguity that concerns mihawk having because in one instance, we see that he was incapable of hurting a devil fruit user and in another, Zoro was taught by mihawk and learned how to use haki during his 2 years training in the timeskip. I am pretty sure that he has haki. In this instance there is almost zero doubt that he does not have haki as who could have taught zoro haki? The culprit would is most like mihawk given that he trained Zoro for 2 years.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

@ Super Flamer What you're using is an assumption. What I am using is an inference. If Zoro learned haki and he was with Mihawk the whole time. Who is most likely to teach him that? *His teacher*. Ace almost has the same scenario except that he has nothing that points to that other than hype while Mihawk has 90% proof. Zoro was learning from Mihawk. If anyone teached him haki it's Mihawk while Ace while he is a division commander he has never taught anyone haki so he can't have it just cause. It's as simple as that.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Luffy has always had CoA and CoO, he simply hadn't awoken those abilities. CotC was the first one he awoke, the rest came after.
> 
> Don't accuse me of using arbitrary excuses when that is exactly what you are doing. Do you even know what the word arbitrary means, because you are refusing to acknowledge that is extremely likely Ace was able to use his Haki. When you have C tier characters like Tashigi using CoA and you try to peddle this bullshit on a cheap absence of proof is proof of absence argument that doesn't hold a drop of water.
> 
> ...




Not true. I have evidence that counters your arguments and dismisses them as an appeal to ignorance. Your counterarguments to my statements of which my statements were constructed to prove why Ace does not have conqueror's hake which said argument you made had to do with the fact that somebody with the potential to use Conqueror's hake should evidently be capable of employing other types of Haki is wrong for several reasons I will be mentioning. Following what I previously stated, I countered  your argument you made about why ace is capable of using other forms of haki on the basis that he has the potential to master haoshoku no haki by bringing up the fact that luffy unintentionally used haoshoku no haki countless of times during the pre time skip yet didn't know how to use either CoA or CoO as an example that attests to the statement that I made. The statement that I made inferred that Ace shouldn't be accountable of having other types of haki just because he unintentionally used conqueror's haki. Luffy used haoshoku no haki countless of times in the pre timeskip. Despite that, he showed no remote signs of being capable of using other types of haki. There was even a scene in the manga where Luffy unintentionally knocked down this huge bison with the use of his haoshoku no haki that was his first ever showing of haki so you can't say that he carried the potential to use other forms of haki because they weren't shown prior to his first use of CoC. Furthermore, having haki is not a requisite to surviving in the new world. We even have proof of other characters in the one piece manga that lived in the new world for a couple of years but showed no signs of haki. Lola is the person I am referring to. This disproves why you don't necessarily need to have haki to survive in the new world.


----------



## Doma (Feb 19, 2014)

Mirage said:


> You claimed that ace not having haki is ridiculous, therefore you obviously are of the opinion that he can utilize haki without specifying proof for your contention. Nice contradiction.



You realize that people can have opinions without them being facts? As stupid as it would be for Ace not to have haki, Oda can certainly go that route if he chooses to.



> You keep on rambling about how illiterate it would be of Ace to not have haki but you don't take in consideration that it may just not have been convenient for Oda to give an ability to ace that does not play out with his respective ability that is his fire fire fruit.



This statement right here tells me you don't know much about haki. Haki would have benefited Ace just as much as anyone else. Even though he's a logia, he would still have been just as vulnerable as anyone to any DF user if they had haki. And since even CoC users are considered a dime a dozen in the NW it's pretty much a guarantee that there are an absolute ton of haki users in the NW. 



> Same thing is applicable for the notion that you mentioned that he must have it because he is powerful; He's already powerful without haki and Oda clearly expressed his loathe of Ace having haki by simply not giving him the ability to use Haki. You have no proof to suggest that he has, whereas I have tons of facts that validate the statement of ace not having haki as a fact.



All of this is just wrong. It is not a fact that Ace didn't have haki. Him not being shown using it does not mean he doesn't know it. Especially when Oda was very ambiguous with it before the time-skip. Hell, even after the time-skip it took all the way until Punk Hazard before it was confirmed that Zoro and Sanji had haki despite there being a pretty good opportunity to show it off with the Pacifista and Sentomaru shouting out that Luffy was using haki.


----------



## Sanji (Feb 19, 2014)

DD high diff.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Doma said:


> You realize that people can have opinions without them being facts? As stupid as it would be for Ace not to have haki, Oda can certainly go that route if he chooses to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Opinions are not a form of facts. Our opinions are not capable of proving anything. They're simply there as a view of something that aren't necessarily based on facts. It's okay to have an opinion of something but that's all your opinion is worth. Nothing more, nothing less.

You claim that I don't recognize much about haki, thus far my posts weren't assertions about me gloating about my in depth knowledge of haki and nor was my post talking about haki. My post was simply referring of the possibilities of Ace having haki and how it is virtually impossible to conclusively rule Ace out on having Haki when there is no evidence supporting that statement either from the manga or from an interview of Oda. Your statement pertains to the possibilities of it being okay to view ace as being capable of using haki, but you are ignorant of the fact that it isn't easy to develop the idea of Ace being capable of using haki by which we assume it as a fact when there is no cogent evidence that he can use it in the first place. How would haki have benefited him if he had a strong devil fruit to begin with? This is another assumption, yours is an assumption as well but the lone difference between our assumptions is that the premise behind my assumption is a formulated idea that refers to ace not having haki on the basis that there is an absence of evidence from the author that suggests that he can use haki. Your assumption about ace having haki is moot because you're arguing against an established fact from the author. The fact being that Ace having haki was not seen as convenient for his fighting style by the author, Eichiiro Oda. You're still way too ignorant of what a fact means and its dissimilarities to an opinionated belief. Zoro and Sanji having haki was proven by the author. Therefore, after the author proved that they were able to use Haki, their use of haki had become a confirmed fact. Prior to the author's confirmation of both Zoro and Sanji having haki, it was speculated that the both of them could make use of haki, which is what we call "Speculation" Any further argument about how they had haki before it was confirmed was moot and absolutely meaningless because of the lack of confirmation from the author which is the standard method of objectively proving a statement. Them having haki does not correlate with the speculations of them having haki the fanbase made. It could have turned out that the both of them had no haki, but fortunately for them, the author had enough wits to give the ability to use haki to them.

Judging by your response, it seems as if you're conceding defeat, or that you understand my point. if it is the latter then please read on, but if it is the former then do not reply. My point is that anyone criticizing others in not having evidence, as a requisite, must be able to confidently use themselves. Since you evidently (see: my two previous comments) lack the ability to argue your case with facts, you are unable to judge the action of others and should promptly cease your arguing on this page. In other words, your make way too many assertions that you can't back up with evidence. It's a fact that Ace did not have Haki for the reason that there were a multitude of perfect opportunities for him to make use of it like the time when he fought Smoker in Logue town. During his fight against smoker, Ace stressed his point on how pointless continuing their fight will be because his ability to produce fire and smoker's ability of smoke will cancel each other out, thus result in a stalemate. His statement would only be partially unnecessary to say if he had Haki, however. You have no proof that Oda was ambiguous with the topic of ace having Haki. He decided a long time ago that the ability of Haki does not suit ace's fighting style, otherwise we would have seen him use it during the pretime skip. According to your logic, because there are a dozen of haki users in the new world, Nami has it as well? what's the difference between nami and ace? Why  isn't nami eligible of being viewed as one of those dozens to have the ability known as Haki? Because it wasn't shown of her use of it, it is arguable on whether she has haki or not, am I correct? This is the same case with ace that you're making and it's completely inane. He hasn't shown the use of it therefore he does not have it. Go with the most simple explanation.


----------



## Doma (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm not conceding defeat, but it's just really obvious this debate isn't going anywhere. You're not making any actual arguments. You're just misreading my posts and making it out like it's an established fact from the author that Ace doesn't have haki which isn't true at all.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

Doma said:


> I'm not conceding defeat, but it's just really obvious this debate isn't going anywhere. You're not making any actual arguments. You're just misreading my posts and making it out like it's an established fact from the author that Ace doesn't have haki which isn't true at all.



Sure, I've totally been doing that. You're doing the exact same thing that you accuse me of doing. I haven't been doing anything but addressing facts in my arguments that you're unable to cope with.  I have not been misreading your arguments. I've read your arguments  perfectly clear and they're the reason that caused me to invest most of my time to explain to you the difference between a fact and a speculation. I can care less if you don't concede as this debate has been boring me stiff.


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Feb 20, 2014)

I just can't believe its 2014 and people are still seriously debating if WB's Second Division commander, and a rising star in the New World, had the basic forms of Haki.


----------



## tupadre97 (Feb 20, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Doflamingo wins high difficulty



This. Ace is stronger than Luffy but not DD. Once Luffy is able to surpass DD then we will truly no that he is stronger than Ace.





The Bloody Nine said:


> I just can't believe its 2014 and people are still seriously debating if WB's Second Division commander, and a rising star in the New World, had the basic forms of Haki.



Exactly this shit is just ridiculous. Anyone who is relevant in the new world has haki. No one who relies on just their df can survive in the NW by themselves. Thats probably why Croc and Moria were destroyed in the NW bcuz they thought that their df's alone would make them strong in the NW but that is not the case. Haki is literally the only reason the pirates in the NW should be so much more devastatingly more powerful than paradise.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 20, 2014)

Well it looks like Moria fought Kaido back in the day without haki, but he became a slouch. Same with Croc until Luffy beat him and reinvigorated him.


----------



## RF (Feb 20, 2014)

lol, Ace not having haki.

It's sad how you people need to be spoonfed about everything.


----------



## TheWiggian (Feb 20, 2014)

At least we have a panel of luffy using/awakening kenbunshoku at MF when he dodged Mihawks slash. But there were never anything hinted from/of/about Ace. He only had CotC that he awakened when he was a brat. Nothing else was shown or stated.

Thats why Doffy wins this mid-high max. diff for me ^^


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 20, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> lol, Ace not having haki.
> 
> It's sad how you people need to be spoonfed about everything.



This.

cba to waste my time with pointless debate.


----------



## Rurouni Seinto (Feb 20, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> Ace is stronger than Luffy


Luffy was fighting equally with Jimbei whilst in Gear 2nd, who's known to be equal to Ace...

Back on topic though, Doflamingo was able to tool Jozu. Even taking into account it was mainly via his DF abilities, it's still a more impressive feat than anything Ace has accomplished.

Doflamingo takes this with either mid or slightly high diff.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 20, 2014)

Rurouni Seinto said:


> Luffy was fighting equally with Jimbei whilst in Gear 2nd, *who's known to be equal to Ace*...
> 
> Back on topic though, Doflamingo was able to tool Jozu. Even taking into account it was mainly via his DF abilities, it's still a more impressive feat than anything Ace has accomplished.
> 
> Doflamingo takes this with either mid or slightly high diff.


that was rookie ace, which people always seem to forget. ace before he died was clearly stronger than jimbie, since he's growth-rate was more or less equal to luffy, and luffy, preTS would get his ass handed to him by jimbie, but after 2 years, he reached his level, ace had more than 2 years to surpass jimbie, and i believe he did so.


----------



## Rurouni Seinto (Feb 20, 2014)

The thing is that whilst that is essentially true, Ace lacked any feats to place his peak self on a level significantly above the version of him that fought Jimbei.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 20, 2014)

Rurouni Seinto said:


> The thing is that whilst that is essentially true, Ace lacked any feats to place his peak self on a level significantly above the version of him that fought Jimbei.


the main reason for that is, ace was just plot device, everything about him was for plot purposes, i mean even after he died, his DF is still being used for plot.
i always thought that his feat against aokigi was his best shown feat.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 20, 2014)

Doma said:


> I'm not conceding defeat, but it's just really obvious this debate isn't going anywhere. You're not making any actual arguments. You're just misreading my posts and making it out like it's an established fact from the author that Ace doesn't have haki which isn't true at all.


Don't even bother trying to debate with him. He'll take your post out of context and ignores fact from the manga.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 20, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Don't even bother trying to debate with him. He'll take your post out of context and ignores fact from the manga.



Pretty sure I've been addressing to both your arguments and his argument and it seems that seeing another person have difficult in debating me makes you willing to address that matter as me supposedly "Ignoring" his points. It's the opposite. Now you're using the ad hominem fallacy and aren't even taking your time to understand what the topic of this thread is about. Evidence and opinions are  two different things. No matter how plausible an opinion may seem, it cannot be called as a fact until it is proven by the author himself. Insult me all you want, but I can see that you've yet to understand the difference between a fact and speculation.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 20, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> This. Ace is stronger than Luffy but not DD. Once Luffy is able to surpass DD then we will truly no that he is stronger than Ace.
> 
> Exactly this shit is just ridiculous. Anyone who is relevant in the new world has haki. No one who relies on just their df can survive in the NW by themselves. Thats probably why Croc and Moria were destroyed in the NW bcuz they thought that their df's alone would make them strong in the NW but that is not the case. Haki is literally the only reason the pirates in the NW should be so much more devastatingly more powerful than paradise.



That is not how it works. You're assuming one interpretation to a scenario and are claiming it to be a fact without any evidence supporting it. This would be similar to me claiming that Ace did not have haki because it does not suit his fighting style. Although that theory of mine seems plausible as well, it cannot be pondered and thus viewed as a fact. Your third sentence in which you wrote that the likeliness of Crocodile and moriah having fallen to their demise in the new world has to do with them not having haki during their time in the new world. This is a plausible theory, although it is not a confirmed fact. It's true that most people that reside in the new world have haki but what relevance does that have upon the subject of Ace not having haki?

What I am saying is... you can't wait for author confirmation?


----------



## rext1 (Feb 20, 2014)

Its hard to say what the outcome of this match would be. The only concrete showing Ace had in battle was against Akainu (BB's fight was off-panelled) - and I highly doubt DD would have done better.

But DD did successfully restrain a WB Commander who was likely stronger than Ace(with the element of surprise) - So I'd give the flamingo the benefit of the doubt!! High-Extreme diff.


----------



## Venom (Feb 20, 2014)

I would give it to DD


----------



## tupadre97 (Feb 21, 2014)

Mirage said:


> That is not how it works. You're assuming one interpretation to a scenario and are claiming it to be a fact without any evidence supporting it. This would be similar to me claiming that Ace did not have haki because it does not suit his fighting style. Although that theory of mine seems plausible as well, it cannot be pondered and thus viewed as a fact. Your third sentence in which you wrote that the likeliness of Crocodile and moriah having fallen to their demise in the new world has to do with them not having haki during their time in the new world. This is a plausible theory, although it is not a confirmed fact. It's true that most people that reside in the new world have haki but what relevance does that have upon the subject of Ace not having haki?
> 
> What I am saying is... you can't wait for author confirmation?



Uh what the hell are you talking about?


----------



## Magician (Feb 22, 2014)

DD should win this mid-high diff.

And lol @ Ace not having haki.


----------



## Akitō (Feb 23, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> It's true that most people that reside in the new world have haki but what relevance does that have upon the subject of Ace not having haki?



It has everything to do with Ace not having Haki. 

The most logical thing to assume right now is that he does have Haki - that's because he's a strong NW fighter, and you can't get far in the NW without having Haki. It isn't a fact that he has Haki, but it _is_ the most reasonable belief. I see no reason to not make assumptions when there's a clear chain of logical reasoning behind those assumptions.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 23, 2014)

Akitō said:


> It has everything to do with Ace not having Haki.
> 
> The most logical thing to assume right now is that he does have Haki - that's because he's a strong NW fighter, and you can't get far in the NW without having Haki. It isn't a fact that he has Haki, but it _is_ the most reasonable belief. I see no reason to not make assumptions when there's a clear chain of logical reasoning behind those assumptions.



Your argument's reasoning that addresses to ace having Haki on the basis that he is a new world veteran is completely rational and makes the utmost of sense. That I can recognize. However, what I believe you're struggling with is recognizing the dissimilarities between facts and speculation. Your argument relies heavily on the latter. It is not okay for you to make the claim that he has haki because you lack the necessary evidence to validate your claim as a fact. The claim you made of which expresses your need to further argue on ace having haki is blatantly wrong because we've seem many new world fighters roam the new world in spite of not having haki. Lola from thriller bark can attest to what i am saying. That claim of yours implies that the reason for which haki is needed to roam the new world is because there may be a few logias out there to stop you from your tracks and can kill you without them having to face any sort of painful repercussions because they're immune to your attacks that lack haki. This, again, is a smart counterargument to the claim that ace does not have haki but this is just another form of assumption which essentially says that Ace has countered logia(s). That assumption of yours can be debunked immediately by which I ask you for proof of that assumption that you evidently lack.


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Feb 23, 2014)

DD mid-high diff. He's superior across the board. If/whenbluffy takes down DD, that's when we'll be able to place Luffy comfortably above Ace. DD just has him outclassed.


----------



## SenZu (Feb 23, 2014)

DD mid diff at best. DD stomped or low diffed Sanji, Smoker, .and Law. Ace with intel without intel, with injuries without injuries, with advantage, without advantage, cannot do what DD did to characters of that level.


----------



## Styles (Jun 8, 2014)

Doflamingo could win mid-dif? Ace is way stronger than given credit for. I'd say he could take Dolfa given the circumstances. Regadless of the fact that bounties don't necessarily correlate with strength levels, 550 Million is nothing to laugh at. Comparing that to Luffy's 400m, he must of done some extremely crazy shit. 

Plus if Luffy's strength does more or less correlate with Ace's progress, Luffy should be about as strong as Ace was before he died. It all really depends on how Doflamingo goes down this arc.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 8, 2014)

Ace was arrogant with his Mera Mera no Mi, he didn't have Haki . If he did he would have been much better in BB vs Ace fight .


----------



## Harard (Jun 8, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Ace was arrogant with his Mera Mera no Mi, he didn't have Haki . If he did he would have been much better in BB vs Ace fight .



It is foolish to think Ace couldn't use haki. This was Whitebeard's second division commander, the guy with a bounty over 500 million.


----------



## Bonly (Jun 8, 2014)

I'd favor Dolfa to win after a good fight thanks to his likely better Haki and DF skills


----------



## Slenderman (Jun 8, 2014)

Dofla low end high difficulty.


----------



## Ether (Jun 8, 2014)

Doflamingo upper end of mid diff to lower end of high diff.
He has better haki and physical stats than Ace.
His dc is also comparable to Ace because of birdcage and attacks such as Parasite.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 9, 2014)

Harard said:


> It is foolish to think Ace couldn't use haki. This was Whitebeard's second division commander, the guy with a bounty over 500 million.



Bounty does not determine whether you have haki or not.  This is an unreasonable argument. It's his strength that made him prompt the government to give him such a huge bounty due to being a formidable and fierce pirate. I mean he was offered to join the shishibukai at such a young age where they'd still have been no way to tell if he had haki, albeit we knew he had his Mera Mera no mi at the time he was offered to join the shishibukais so that was the cause for which they offered him to become a shishibukai. And as plausible as it may see that Ace has haki, it cannot be referred to as a fact until proven by the author himself. So what? Being second division commander is still not evidence that he had haki. I can use the same dubious logic against you; he was a logia, thus he had no need for haki. He could have simply been too attached to his logia ability to fight with fire that he was oblivious to the ability of Haki and did not need it. You may then argue that what if he encountered strong haki users in the new world? Which, as likely as that may seem, it is still speculation. We know Haki isn't the only factor that contributes to a win, as there are other such factors like speed, physical strength, knowledge devil fruit ability et cetera... So haki isn't the only thing important to winning a fight.


Motherfucking question has been argued so many times. Why doesn't somebody just ask Oda this question because it's getting on my nerves. Why does Oda have to act like such an asshole at times and not just give us confirmation as to whether ace  had haki or not? It's like whenever someone is straightforward with his question, oda avoids the question by slightly detracting himself from the content of the question by giving a parody of a legitimate answer to the question the fan asked to avoid giving the question.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 9, 2014)

Doflamingo high difficulty.
The 16 WB commanders are haki users, seriously even fodders from Amazon Lily can use haki, Ace is the son of the PK;


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 9, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Doflamingo high difficulty.
> The 16 WB commanders are haki users, seriously even fodders from Amazon Lily can use haki, Ace is the son of the PK;



While I do agree with you that Doflamingo wins, others weaker than ace knowing how to use Haki is not indication of confirmation that leads towards Ace knowing how to use Haki as well. And being the son of the Pirate king does not mean you "AUTOMATICALLY" have to know how to use Haki. This argument is getting you nowhere, as being the son of the pirate king does not have you inherent CoA without you having to train yourself to gain the ability to use Haki. You can be anyone, from a random person to the son of someone formidable to train yourself in learning how to use this ability. Haki isn't just limited to strong people, neither does being the son of someone notorious is confirmation that you know how to use it. This is failed reasoning that I have no idea how you were able to come up with. The amazon lily fighters knew how to use it because they were taught how to use Haki throughout their training regiment to become a formidable warrior to defend their island against any intruder's malicious act. They were trained by haki users themselves, whereas there is no indication that Ace learned how to use haki by being trained by someone highly efficient in the use haki in the two years of embarking in his journey to piracy.

To add more, take Luffy for example. The incarnation of Luffy in thriller barc arc where he showed no remote signs of being able to use Haki was stronger than almost every amazon lily fighters in thriller barc arc, but he had showed to indication that he could use CoA at that part of the story line. Does this mean that strength is a contributing factor to whether or not someone has haki? Not really. You can be stronger than a person and not be able to use haki, whereas said person weaker than you can.

Haki is just something most people believe is a prerequisite in learning at a certain point of their journey where they're aware that the going throughout their journey will get extremely tough so they tell themselves they need to learn it for several reasons including the most important reason among the others that logia users will be impossible to hit without haki.

Was Ace trained by someone? No. We don't know if he was and it's not worth arguing over whether he hhas because it wasn't confirmed.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 9, 2014)

2 years as a member of a Yonko crew, Tashigi/Smoker did it in less than 2 years, why Ace wouldn't be able to do the same thing? He's more talented than both of them.
Ace was one of the strongest commanders, WB saw much promise in him, as did Sengoku.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 9, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> 2 years as a member of a Yonko crew, Tashigi/Smoker did it in less than 2 years, why Ace wouldn't be able to do the same thing? He's more talented than both of them.
> Ace was one of the strongest commanders, WB saw much promise in him, as did Sengoku.



But we're talking about ace. Do not associate Ace's progress with other characters like the likes of Smoker, tashigi et cetera... Furthermore, the reason for which smoker has haki is for his own reason that is an independent reason not to be associated with your view of it that leads to you thinking it's a reason why Ace must have haki. Just to begin, Smoker has haki  because his rank as a vice admiral necessitated him to learn it since learning haki is a prerequisite before being able to join the rank of Vice admiral.  Both the ranks of Vice admiral and Admiral carries a prerequisite prior to being able to achieve the aforementioned ranks. Therefore, Smoker's intention of joining the Vice admiral rank had an obstacle that smoker could only pass to succeed in joining the VA rank by learning Haki. So Smoker having haki shouldn't mean Ace has it as it's a whole entire different reason for why he has haki.

Tashigi learned it because that was the AUTHOR's intention with her. The way her fighting style is based on differs greatly to Ace's and makes her almost prone to injury, whereas Ace is not all that prone considering he is a logia with an extensive mastery of his Mera Mera no mi. You also have to understand that she wouldn't of had succeeded in the new world all that much without haki if the mechanics of her fighting style isn't all that strong to begin with and has her have high chances of her severely injured due to being a hand to hand fighter. I guess he needed to introduce something really necessary for her as far as her abilities are concerned or else she'd just be the same as her pre time skip version but only a little bit stronger.

I never argued that Ace couldn't learn it in more than 2 years. He more than likely can. This was not my argument and you are distorting what I had originally claimed. I made the claim that it was simply impossible to assess on whether he could use haki because it was never confirmed that he had haki by the author himself. Thus no further arguments as to whether he has it or not are of any relevance if the arguments we construct in favor of ace having haki will be meaningless speculation the equivalent of saying Usopp has haki.

How is he more talented than Tashigi. Are you claiming Ace is more talented than Tashigi in terms of swordsmanship? No. Tashigi is more talented than ace in her own respective ways, as is smoker. This applies to ace as well, he is more talented than them in his owns ways that shouldn't really need to be specifies because they're obvious. Smoker seems to be the more intelligent fighter whose calculations in analyzing someone are very cold and his ability to use smoker isn't really for destruction like Ace's so he is inferior to Ace due to that. Ace seems to be stronger with his ability based on total destructiveness. 

Yes, he was one of the strongest, but that doesn't say much as to if he had haki or not. Sengoku saw him as someone that could prove to be a necessary asset for the world government based on what he saw of him with the use of his Mera Mera no mi ability destroying anything in his path. Don't see how this means he had haki...

Sengoku saw Buggy as someone formidable... does this mean buggy must of had haki in the pre time skip


----------



## Bonly (Jun 9, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> And as plausible as it may see that Ace has haki, it cannot be referred to as a fact until proven by the author himself.



While it's not a fact, we could come to logically conclusions for certain things when not shown/said by Oda himself. If I remember correctly Big Mom and Kaido haven't been shown to use Haki but we can come to a logical conclusion that they it. It's pretty plausible/logical that Ace should have some form of CoA haki so I don't see much of a problem with people acting like it is a fact.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 9, 2014)

Bonly said:


> While it's not a fact, we could come to logically conclusions for certain things when not shown/said by Oda himself. If I remember correctly Big Mom and Kaido haven't been shown to use Haki but we can come to a logical conclusion that they it. It's pretty plausible/logical that Ace should have some form of CoA haki so I don't see much of a problem with people acting like it is a fact.



Big mom and Kaido haven't even been introduced, try again. And their rank is far above Ace's also because they've been living in the new world far longer than Ace has with the 2 years he's dove in the new world that isn't much to Kaido and big mom's experience. Their subordinates have been confirmed of having Haki so it should tell you they must  at least know of its existences thus leading us closes to them knowing how to use it. As for ace and the masses of example people cite to convince the audience that he has haki? One of the examples is that he has been in the new world but living in the new world does not mean you know how to use haki especially with the case of ace who's only been there for 2 years. Moreover, it's because you must understand that there is a huge difference between speculation and a fact. Whether you want to use those sets of examples to disprove of my logic still does not conclusively debunk my argument that his rank is not implication to his ability of using Haki as we have actual instances in the manga in which Ace failed to showcase the ability to use Haki such as during his encounter against smoker. 

We have legitimate direct on panel instance of Ace not being able to land any damage on Smoker, a logia, by not showcasing any haki abilities, so this further lends weighting to why it's virtually impossible to say he has it. It's not just that it's "speculation" thus not a valid assumption, but he failed to showcase it. Against Blackbeard, after his devil fruit ability was rendered null due to blackbeard's yami fruit allowing him to nullify a person's devil fruit ability, it should have been more than enough of a reason to poise him to use Haki if his main combat of utility can no longer be of use against Blackbeard.


And it takes a long time to learn and master it. Luffy has possibly mastered it is because he spent almost every moment of two years training it, he has the ability to learn things involving fighting fairly quickly, as can be shown with his adaption of Soru, and the fact that he had a master for a teacher. Plus, though Ace was with the Whitebeards for seemingly most of the 3 years between when he set out and Luffy set out, for a time he had his own crew and even after joining the Whitebeards he was still very cautious, then having to leave for a time to search for Teach. During that period Ace was probably not even considering haki, but learning his DF abilities and managing a crew. Even if he figured out how to do some of haki, the Whitebeards could only teach him so much, and he only had a limited time to learn it, as they were constantly in battles and what not. Had this happened maybe 2 years later, I think Ace could have learned and used it, but as that is not the case, then he probably simply did not have adequate time to properly learn it.


----------



## Bonly (Jun 9, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Big mom and Kaido haven't even been introduced, try again.



Not sure if trolling or serious.



> And their rank is far above Ace's also because they've been living in the new world far longer than Ace has with the 2 years he's dove in the new world that isn't much to Kaido and big mom's experience. Their subordinates have been confirmed of having Haki so it should tell you they must  at least know of its existences thus leading us closes to them knowing how to use it.



Which in other words, coming to a logical conclusion.



> As for ace and the masses of example people cite to convince the audience that he has haki? One of the examples is that he has been in the new world but living in the new world does not mean you know how to use haki especially with the case of ace who's only been there for 2 years.



My name isn't "the masses". I didn't bring Ace living in the NW itself for why he has Haki, just said that we can use logical conclusions so please can ya reply to what I'm saying rather then bringing up what others have brought up?



> Moreover, it's because you must understand that there is a huge difference between speculation and a fact. Whether you want to use those sets of examples to disprove of my logic still does not conclusively debunk my argument that his rank is not implication to his ability of using Haki



I have not suggested that his rank alone means he has haki so again can ya focus on the points I bring up rather then bringing up other people's point?



> as we have actual instances in the manga in which Ace failed to showcase the ability to use Haki such as during his encounter against smoker.We have legitimate direct on panel instance of Ace not being able to land any damage on Smoker, a logia, by not showcasing any haki abilities, so this further lends weighting to why it's virtually impossible to say he has it. It's not just that it's "speculation" thus not a valid assumption, but he failed to showcase it.



I thought so too but I had only watched the anime at the time and I've been told that, that part was filler. From what I've been told they never fought or anything, Ace just stopped an attack so if that's true how would Ace get to show off Haki at such an early point in the manga?  



> Against Blackbeard, after his devil fruit ability was rendered null due to blackbeard's yami fruit allowing him to nullify a person's devil fruit ability, it should have been more than enough of a reason to poise him to use Haki if his main combat of utility can no longer be of use against Blackbeard.



How do you know he wasn't using Haki? When it came to CoA haki before the timeskip we generally didn't know unless someone was hitting a logia(or Luffy) or it was stated, so he could've been using Haki and we didn't know about it.




> And it takes a long time to learn and master it. Luffy has possibly mastered it is because he spent almost every moment of two years training it, he has the ability to learn things involving fighting fairly quickly, as can be shown with his adaption of Soru, and the fact that he had a master for a teacher. Plus, though Ace was with the Whitebeards for seemingly most of the 3 years between when he set out and Luffy set out, for a time he had his own crew and even after joining the Whitebeards he was still very cautious, then having to leave for a time to search for Teach. During that period Ace was probably not even considering haki, but learning his DF abilities and managing a crew. *Even if he figured out how to do some of haki, the Whitebeards could only teach him so much, and he only had a limited time to learn it, as they were constantly in battles and what not*. Had this happened maybe 2 years later, I think Ace could have learned and used it, but as that is not the case, then he probably simply did not have adequate time to properly learn it.



And that is where the logical conclusion comes in. He was on a boat with the likes of White Beard(WSM), Marco, Jouz, Vista, and any other person who has Haki on that ship(as well as their allies he met over time) and they know how good/important Haki is and Ace had a high growth rate like Luffy. Is it really to much of a stretch for people to think Ace had some decent CoA?


----------



## Samehadaman (Jun 9, 2014)

The Ace haki thing isn't really about Ace, it's part of the bigger issue that haki was introduced very late and a lot of characters who sould have had haki, don't.

Crocodile was in the New World, fought Whitebeard in the past, became Shichibukai, but somehow never developed haki. Moriah also was in the New World, defeated by Kaido, yet never had haki. Both of these guys traveled enough to know haki is a must-have (heck every single Vice Admiral is required to have it) and saw the top dogs up and close, and still walked around arrogant as hell with no haki.

Just imagine, guys who were famous Shichibukai would probably get owned in the Dressrossa Colosseum, and this despite already having been in fights in the New World.
Some dude like Boo, who nobody in the OPverse ever heard of, has haki in his axe. Because he came after the timeskip.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 9, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Not sure if trolling or serious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The more you argue over something by denying the obvious difference pertaining to facts and speculation, the more i think you do not know what you are saying.

Your Ad hominems aren't going to help you all that much if you aren't going to address to any of my points. The "Not sure if trolling" comment of yours is incredibly rude and condescending to the point it makes you look like the legitimate troll.

Comparing a yonkou to Ace who has shown more than multiple instances of not being able to use Haki even when cornered in a fight against a strong opponent where it should make him have to use haki points at a different route than the one you are suggesting. Yonkou are entirely different characters when trying to use them as examples concerning why you think my logic that, because he hasn't shown it, he doesn't have it until confirmed by the author himself.

Furthermore, Ace did not live in the new world for all that long, thus making any statement that it is the reason for which you believe he has it is an incredibly flawed argument from you. And living in the new world, especially when you've barely lived in said part of the new world for all that wrong, is not a valid reason for why Ace or anyone for that matter must have haki. Lola from Thriller barc was stated to have gone roam the new world, yet showed no indication to being able to use Haki. Your argument is based on unreasonable notions that won't get you anywhere. And the way in which you try to make it seem that it's a reason for why he has haki is incredibly idiotic if you do not even put any emphasis as to why living in that part of the world should be enough of a reason for why you must have haki if others were able to enter it without having to gain access to the ability of using Haki. When you make the claim that it's the reason for why he has haki, you're opening up more doors of speculation because you are essentially saying that Ace had confronted a multitude of Logias during his time in the new world, which I reckon you have no evidence to those speculation either.

We actually have direct panel from the manga hinting at Ace's lack of Haki and my arguments are based strictly on that as opposed to your opinionated beliefs that cannot be viewed as FACTS. Blackbeard summed it up perfectly: Ace relied too much on his godlike logia powers and payed the price for his overconfidence. Also consider how young Ace was. According to Rayleigh it takes a lifetime to master Haki, and every high-class user seen so far is at least in his/her 40's, if we don't count Hancock. But it does not take a lot of time to learn Haki, it's just that Ace didn't have all that time to learn it.

Okay, my mistake for this. That was my fault.

Yeah, you're not seeing the big picture here. While Ace saved his brother Luffy and friends from getting caught by Smoker, he headed towards Smoker at highspeeds covered entirely with flames and clashed against Smoker who had imbued himself as well although with smoke. After both Ace and smoker were aware that their ability were equal to one another due to Smoke not having any advantageous affects over fire and Vice versa, Ace directly made the claim that any further clashes between the two would be superfluous because it'd just end in them endlessly attempting to injure one another but to no avail for already mentioned reason. This right here gives us information of both Ace and Smoker not having ANY OTHER WAYS of hurting one another's logia intangibility. Ace's only ability he had to attempt at injuring Smoker, even if it proved to be futile, was his fire, and this was something he himself had uttered.

This is extremely hypocritical of you. You're trying to use my logic against me even if you yourself are aware of how you are just going to make yourself look like someone that's grasping at straws no matter how ridiculous his rebuttal will look like that is being a parody of a real argument not worthy of anyone's attention. The burden of proof is on you to prove why Ace had used Haki, not I. You have not even given me a viable explanation as to how he may of had used haki during his fight with blackbeard, by which you argued that the version of Color of armanent where a haki users imbues a certain body part of his with black matter was not introduced at that time, you're trying to make it seem like  it's a worthy refutation to my argument that Ace never used haki by referencing the fact that CoA (black matter haki) wasn't introduced at that time, yet Ace was using the invisible haki. This is utter nonsense. 

To capitalize on Oda's mistake he made concerning Haki by saying that Ace had used the invisible type of Haki despite you having no evidence to back your assertion up and knowing that Haki was never introduced even at that time of the story line, we know that each time Haki was used in the pre time skip and some parts of the Time skip, it involves either the character who's using Haki directly saying he's using it in some way or another or the character he is fighting against saying it instead. So there is no way Ace had used Haki if there was no indication to his use of Haki (And saying he used the invisible type of haki as a way to grasp at straws for your inability to provide proof to your statement just to compensate for your lack evidence for your statement is just equally as bad) because Oda would never make someone use it without hinting us to the use of Haki, a concept extremely premature at that time of the story line in which him introducing it on panel but not mentioning it would be blatant contradiction and bad writing overall.


Being on a boat with the likes of strong fighters is simply put, another speculation from you that has no correlation with what we refer to as a fact. He was in a crew surrounded with extremely powerful allies, that really does not say much on if he had haki or not. What will prove whether he has it is on panel portrayal of his haki or author confirmation either in the SBS or Oda speaking through a character saying Ace had Haki. Those are the only possible ways in which we can validate whether he had Haki or not as a fact. According to your logic, every fodder in that ship had haki because they were surrounded with the likes of WB, Jozu, marco and vista? Is that what you're saying? 

Heck, why not just say everyone has haki! Even trees! No. IT was never mentioned that, prior to joining Whitebeard's ship, you must have haki. Your statement is just another one of your speculations which I can counter with one of my own by which I make the claim that Ace relied on his devil fruit as his main weapon for combat that is something that takes precedence over any other methods he may possibly have for fighting purposes. Of course, hand to hand fighting is his second option of fighting. The latter was proven to be a fact after he was not able to make use of his Mera Mera no mi by having his weakness, his over-reliance to it, exposed by Blackbeard.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 9, 2014)

> Some dude like Boo, who nobody in the OPverse ever heard of, has haki in his axe. Because he came after the timeskip.


Boo is far from being the weakest haki user.
The fodders from Amazon Lily were using haki.


----------



## Bonly (Jun 9, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Shit no one cares about



Yeah don't care to read that unnecessarily long post so I just barely skimmed the end. Not sure why you don't understand something as simple as this but I'm not trying to prove he does have CoA haki as if it's a fact to you, I'm just suggesting that based on logical conclusions, we could make a guess that he does have Haki and it wouldn't be much of a stretch even if we didn't see it on panel. So i'll ask you again, do you think it is to much of a stretch to suggest Ace had CoA?


----------



## Nox (Jun 12, 2014)

The fact that Ace was never shown to posses any KH/BH is going to be his downfall in this match. DD should win this with high mid difficulty.


----------



## Luke (Jun 12, 2014)

Doflamingo wins with high difficulty.


----------



## Ruse (Jun 13, 2014)

Doflamingo mid diff


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 13, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Yeah don't care to read that unnecessarily long post so I just barely skimmed the end. Not sure why you don't understand something as simple as this but I'm not trying to prove he does have CoA haki as if it's a fact to you, I'm just suggesting that based on logical conclusions, we could make a guess that he does have Haki and it wouldn't be much of a stretch even if we didn't see it on panel. So i'll ask you again, do you think it is to much of a stretch to suggest Ace had CoA?



You contradicted yourself and what you wrote makes absolutely no sense "I am not trying to prove he does have coa, but I am just suggesting he has it because it's logical" What? How do you deem Ace not showing any signs of CoA as him having it being Logical when it's clearly portrayed that he does not have it? I don't understand this train wreck you've constituted to, and no, I do not think him having Haki is "logical" in any way. Ace hasn't been confirmed of being a user of the Color of armanent Haki, thus any further argument as to him having it is superfluous and pure speculation. You could say Ace has haki, you just cannot claim him having haki as a fact because it has not been proven by the author. If you're aware with facts and speculation, both terms differ greatly to one another so your speculation has no importance.



Deus Machina said:


> The fact that Ace was never shown to posses any KH/BH is going to be his downfall in this match. DD should win this with high mid difficulty.



Agreed. Doflamingo takes this.


----------



## Nekochako (Jun 14, 2014)

Doflamingo should be able to win this high difficullity.


----------



## GIORNO (Jun 14, 2014)

Ace gets the Sanji treatment.


----------

