# Kunoichi Ranking



## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2014)

Tsunade
Mei
Konan
Sakura
Karin
Chiyo
Kushina
Yugito Nii
Tayuya
Shizune
Fū 
Anko
Kurenai
Hinata
Ino
Temari
Mito

*Spoiler*: __ 



Kaguya 




Feel free to add anyone to your list who you think may be missing (I didn't exhaust all the names obviously). Also, I'd prefer if even the ones somewhat lacking credentials be ranked too based on what we do know about them, however, if you want to omit them for that reason then that's cool too.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Yugito is probably the strongest Kunoichi, I believe at some point it was stated that she was a partial perfect Jin. 

Oh and Temari should go WAY higher, she can debatably beat Tsunade (being a perfect match-up against her).


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## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2014)

That isn't my list, just some names I put together.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Kaguya
Mito
Kushina
Yugito(because Full Transformatio)
Tsunade/Sakura
Rest


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> Kaguya
> Mito
> Kushina
> Yugito(because Full Transformatio)
> ...



Kushina lacks any offensive feats, she can restrain well, but that's about it. Mito lacks feats in general.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Kushina lacks any offensive feats, she can restrain well, but that's about it. Mito lacks feats in general.



I'm using portrayal and hype for both and i'm too lazy to do a complet list anyways


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> I'm using portrayal and hype for both and i'm too lazy to do a complet list anyways



What portrayal and hype has Mito gotten? Besides sealing Kurama inside herself? I don't think Kushina ever even got hype.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> What portrayal and hype has Mito gotten? Besides sealing Kurama inside herself? I don't think Kushina ever even got hype.



They gain mainly their place by proxy of being Kurama's Jin 

I wish a KCM Mito/KCM Kushina existed


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> They gain mainly their place by proxy of being Kurama's Jin
> 
> I wish a KCM Mito/KCM Kushina existed



Well to be fair, they where not even half perfect Jins, so they couldn't simply transform into Kurama whenever they pleased like Yugito can do with Matabi, that's why Yugito should be placed above them.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Well to be fair, they where not even half perfect Jins, so they couldn't simply transform into Kurama whenever they pleased like Yugito can do with Matabi, that's why Yugito should be placed above them.



If Yugito turn into Matatabi, she get chained and she didn't show the feat to dodge that in Full Bijuu


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## Cognitios (Jul 22, 2014)

> Yugito is probably the strongest Kunoichi, I believe at some point it was stated that she was a partial perfect Jin.


No, no she wasn't.
The only perfect jins are
Naruto
Bee
Yagura
That's been stated. Yugito lost to Hidan and Kakuzu and pretty badly too.
Tsunade/Sakura/Mei would all beat her
Kushina and Mito probably would too.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 22, 2014)

Ino

The rest.

Ino dah best.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> If Yugito turn into Matatabi, she get chained and she didn't show the feat to dodge that in Full Bijuu



She gets chained and then what? 



Cognitios said:


> No, no she wasn't.
> The only perfect jins are
> Naruto
> Bee
> ...



She was a *partial * perfect Jin. Though she could not control Matabi like the ones you mentioned, she is able to quickly give herself in and transform into Matabi, normal Jinchuriki's can't do that, before Naruto befriended Kurama he had to go through a whole bunch of stages himself. 

Hidan has a pretty useful ability when it comes down to taking out Jinchuriki's and Biju's. with Kakuzu take all the blnt damage, Hidan can get a good opening and its GG. And no, Matabi >>> Tsunade, Sakura and Mei, possibly all at the same time. 

Mito = Featless
Kushina = No way to harm the opponent, restraining your opponent won't win you a fight.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 22, 2014)

Kushina was a perfect jin.  So restraining an opponent and then shooting a bijuudama in their face is pretty effective.  As is throwing kunai at their face.  Or stabbing, if you think she sucked at throwing shuriken.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kushina was a perfect jin.  So restraining an opponent and then shooting a bijuudama in their face is pretty effective.  As is throwing kunai at their face.  Or stabbing, if you think she sucked at throwing shuriken.



Kushina wasn't a perfect Jin.

And throwing a Kunai at Matabi won't do anything.


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## Cognitios (Jul 22, 2014)

> She was a partial perfect Jin. Though she could not control Matabi like the ones you mentioned, she is able to quickly give herself in and transform into Matabi, normal Jinchuriki's can't do that, before Naruto befriended Kurama he had to go through a whole bunch of stages himself.


No, she had the level of control part 1 gaara had, he also could turn into shukaku at will. Could he control it? no, the bijuu itself wasn't that formidable. 
As for normal jins not being able to do it, that's just flat out wrong
We haven't seen any jins not be able to do it. Part 1 Bee was able to partially create Hachibi via tenticle and gaara could perform a full transformation.


> Hidan has a pretty useful ability when it comes down to taking out Jinchuriki's and Biju's. with Kakuzu take all the blnt damage, Hidan can get a good opening and its GG. And no, Matabi >>> Tsunade, Sakura and Mei, possibly all at the same time.


It wasn't full Matabi, it was a partial matabi, the things was a fraction of the size that actual matabi is. Not to mention bijuu are weaker if your not a perfect host. Part 1 Gaara and Yugito have the same level of bijuu control, yet he was still beaten by Part 1 naruto and gamabunta simply because the bijuu was nerfed because matabi didn't have full power.



> Mito = Featless
> Kushina = No way to harm the opponent, restraining your opponent won't win you a fight.


Sensing + Sealing and portrayal puts her above.
Chakra chains are still effective, as shown by karin. Her sealing ability is above minato's too.


Also the fact that you think yugito could possibly take on Tsunade + Sakura + Mei is trollish at best.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> She gets chained and then what?



She either seal Matatabi's chakra (negating her transformation) and slice her throad or remove the seal (i.e Matatabi is free) killing Yugito 

Worst Case Scenario she RDS (since it's hinted as a jutsu created by the Uzumaki thank to the masks in their temple)


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## ueharakk (Jul 22, 2014)

Kushina
Mito
Karen (save sasuke mode)
Tsunade
Sakura
Mei
Yuugito
Konan
Chiyo

the rest.

I don't think yuugito is a perfect jink, and if she was, it has been retconned.  Had she been a perfect jink, she'd be above tsunade and probably around kushina's level.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> She either seal Matatabi's chakra (negating her transformation) and slice her throad or remove the seal (i.e Matatabi is free) killing Yugito



She can't do a single one of those things. 



> Worst Case Scenario she RDS (since it's hinted as a jutsu created by the Uzumaki thank to the masks in their temple)



Just because she may know about it does not mean she can use it. 



Cognitios said:


> No, she had the level of control part 1 gaara had, he also could turn into shukaku at will. Could he control it? no, the bijuu itself wasn't that formidable.
> As for normal jins not being able to do it, that's just flat out wrong
> We haven't seen any jins not be able to do it. Part 1 Bee was able to partially create Hachibi via tenticle and gaara could perform a full transformation.



No, he, like Naruto, had to go through a bunch of transformations before turning into Shukaku. We haven't seen any Jins do it means we are to assume they can't, you can't simply assume they can when they have not shown to do so. Besides, I remembered where I got the I formation from, the . 



> It wasn't full Matabi, it was a partial matabi, the things was a fraction of the size that actual matabi is. Not to mention bijuu are weaker if your not a perfect host. Part 1 Gaara and Yugito have the same level of bijuu control, yet he was still beaten by Part 1 naruto and gamabunta simply because the bijuu was nerfed because matabi didn't have full power.



Are you kidding me? Just her paw was significantly bigger then Kakuzu. She was the same size as she normally is. Biju's are not weaker when your not a perfect host, Jins are just stronger when they become a perfect host. Part1 Gaara has the same level of Biju control as Pre-KCM Naruto, Yugito is beyond, but I don't need to really bother with this anymore, as Ie already proven you wrong. 




> Sensing + Sealing and portrayal puts her above.
> Chakra chains are still effective, as shown by karin. Her sealing ability is above minato's too.



Sensing is not a useful combat ability against a Biju, and a mere hype sealing Jutsu does not put her above a Jinchuriki with actual feats either. Portrayal has nothing going for her. 

Those where Karin's feats not hers, and Karin only managed to do that only because she was desperate to get to Sasuke, morals boost strength. Since when.




> Also the fact that you think yugito could possibly take on Tsunade + Sakura + Mei is trollish at best.



Not at all. Bijudama is not something they can counter, and they are not exactly fast.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Kushina
> Mito
> Karen (save sasuke mode)
> Tsunade
> ...



You still didn't tell me what's a jink


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 22, 2014)

1) Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
2) Mito Uzumaki
3) Tsunade
4) Sakura Haruno
5) Mei Terumi
6) Fuu
7) Konan 
8) Kushina Uzumaki
9) Chiyo
10) Yugito Nii
11) Kurenai Yuhi
12) Temari
13) Hinata Hyuuga
14) Ino Yamanaka
15) Pakura
16) Shizune
17) Tenten (with Banshosen)
18) Karin
19) Kurotsuchi
20) Anko Mitarashi / Samui
21) Tsume Inuzuka
22) Tayuya
23) Hana Inuzuka / Karui
24) Hanabi Hyuuga 
25) Rin Nohara 
26) Kin Tsuchi
27) Moegi

That's my list. I even included a few fodders! I did have to take a few guesses here and there, though.​​


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Does Kaguya even count as a Kunoichi? because , you know, she lived in a era where they weren't any chakra apart for her and her son


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## ueharakk (Jul 22, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> You still didn't tell me what's a jink


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## Bonly (Jul 22, 2014)

Kaguya 
Yugito/Tsunade
Sakura
Mei/Konan
Karin/Chiyo
Shizune/Kurenai
Anko/Temari
Tayuya
Hinata/Ino


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## OG Appachai (Jul 22, 2014)

Yugito
Fuu
Kushina
Konan
Tsunade
Mei
Chiyo
Temari
Sakura
Karin
Hinata
Ino

Everyone that matters IMO.

Tailed beast hosts get auto top spots due to no one being able to take a bijuudama bar kaguya.


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## Butterfly (Jul 22, 2014)

1. Mito
2. Tsunade
3. Yugito Nii
4. Mei
5. Fuu
6. Konan
7. Sakura
8. Chiyo/Kurotsuchi
10. Shizune/Kurenai
12. Temari/Tenten (with fan)
14. Hinata/Ino/Tenten (without fan)/Anko
17. Tayuya 

Of course, if Konan has her infinite explosive jutsu, then she'll be #1. 
Bar regenerating ninja, I'm not sure who could survive that.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Anyways, time to make my own list:

1. Kaguya (Obviously, not much needs to be said)
2. Yugito Nii (She is a partial perfect Jin, and that's really all you need to beat many people)
3. Tsunade (Physically strongest up until the Jubi Jinchurikis started appearing, best healing up until the Jubi Jinchurikis started to appear as well). 
4. Sakura (Close behind Tsunade, some could argue on par, but she lacks any significant Byakougo feats) 
5. Mei (She has a good variety of Ninjutsu, both close and long range, but her lack of Taijutsu feats really hurt her in Vs Battles)
6. Temari (Some insane long range Futon and probably the highest intelligence out of any Kunoichi, that's often overlooked, her specific fighting style is a great counter to the 3rd and 4th places on this list)
7. Granny Chiyo (It is a tough call between her and Temari, but I think that Temari's long range style is what would give her the edge more often then this Granny's Mid-Range Quality over quantity puppets)
8. Karin (She has some pretty deadl chains and can last long, but the fact that these chains only come out when she is feeling a certain way, it really hurts her in a 1 Vs 1 fight)
9. Konan (She is overrated, she hardly has any offense whatsoever, so the only thing going for her is how hard she is to kill in Paper Angel form, but that only lasts for about 5min and from their she's as good as dead)
10. Ameyuri Ringo (This is purely based on hype/portrayal, she should be around Zabuza's level)
11. Kurotsuchi (She actually has some quality feats, its a shame she lacks the quantity)
12. Tayuya (Sound Genjutsu is OP, and she's pretty smart)
13. Fū (She has one OP ability that works as a Flashbang but that's it, the fact that she is just as much of a dud of a Jinchuriki as Naruto was means she cannot freely turn full Biju mode, and with hardly any feats to begin with, she goes down quickly, granted, she is very fast and agile, and f she WAS able to turn into a Biju freely, she would be above Yugito).
14. Hinata (Meh, she is still probably not even as strong as Part 1 Neji yet, but close)
15. Ino (She really is not that strong without a teammate)

I just want to keep this list at 15, but there are two characters in particular I want to address. 

Mito: Why is she so high on everyone's list? She does not have a single feat nor hype. Just because she sealed Kurama in herself does not mean she defeated Kurama, its obvious that Hashirama brought her a unconscious Kurama so she can seal him, and a single sealing Jutsu is not enough to put her anywhere on a list).

Kushina: Well she has a feat, but that feat is a mere restraining feat, nothing more, nothing less, she can't beat someone with just that, granted some of you may argue that putting Ringo in my list was hypocritical, but I will say that at least Ringo has a means to kill people, and knowing the ability of her swords, I could picture what she is capable of more or less, on the other hand, Kushina's best offensive weapon is a Kunai).


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2014)

1. Kaguya
2. Mito
3. Kushina
4. Sakura
5. Tsunade
6. Yugito
7. Mei
8. Konan
9. Chiyo
10. Karin
11. Temari
12. Ino
13. Shizune
14. Kurunai
15. Hinata
16. Anko

Don't know where to place Fuu


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## FlamingRain (Jul 22, 2014)

Tsunade
Mei
Sakura
Yugito Nii
Konan
Chiyo
Kushina ~ Mito?
Temari
Fū?
Shizune
Ino
Hinata
Kurenai
Anko
Tayuya

Kaguya pre-dates "kunoichi", so I didn't count her, but obviously she's a lot more powerful than everybody on this list.

Tsunade has more hype than anyone on the list, guys and gals.

Mito and Kushina are part of Konoha's history and thus they're canonically weaker than Tsunade, because according to Kishimoto "Tsunade is the strongest kunoichi in Konoha history". Shikaku attested to the Slug Princess of the Sannin being "the most powerful and beautiful woman alive", too, and Chiyo got embarrassed by her multiple times. By transitive extension because she's every bit a match for Orochimaru who Hiruzen admitted inferiority to before learning about Edo Tensei she's tougher than the Mizukage, and even though it's not clear whether or not Mei was in office at the time I'd say the claim would be consistent with their performances in the Madara fight. Konan clearly didn't stand on equal footing with Jiraiya as Tsunade is purported to either.

That just leaves two not-fully-realized Jinchūrikis (who may very well have been accounted for in Shikaku's statement, but that's neither here nor there) that didn't seem to be any stronger than your average Akatsuki member and a bunch of Jōnin, so yeah...

Dem Sannins.




Destiny Monarch said:


> *partial perfect*





That doesn't even make sense. Is she perfect or is she not?


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> That doesn't even make sense. Is she perfect or is she not?



Partial mastery.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 22, 2014)

That makes more sense.


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## OG Appachai (Jul 22, 2014)

Sheesh now Tsunade is tangling with tailed beasts despite bijuu damas and sheer size. The more you know. all hail the slug princess shes def top tier


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## FlamingRain (Jul 22, 2014)

It doesn't take a top tier to deal with a Tailed Beast acting of its own accord.....






Nor Yugito.


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## OG Appachai (Jul 22, 2014)

Databook says yugito can control her tailed beast transformation. And yes it does none of the kage can take a tailed beast1v1 bar hashirama.


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## Cord (Jul 22, 2014)

1. Kaguya Ōtsutsuki 
2. Mito Uzumaki
3. Kushina Uzumaki
4. Tsunade Senju
5. Sakura Haruno 
6. Konan; Mei Terumi
8. Yugito Nii
9. Chiyo
10. Koharu Utatane
11. Fū
12. Kurenai Yūhi; Temari
14. Hinata Hyūga; Ino Yamanaka
16. Karin; Karui
18. Samui ; Tenten (no Bashōsen)
20. Shizune
21. Anko
22. Tayuya
23. Hanabi Hyūga
24. Rin Nohara
25. Kin Tsuchi

I forgot/don't care about the others.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 22, 2014)

*:|...*

**

-Yugito/Fuu
-Chiyo
-Tsunade 
-Mei
-Konan
-Pakura
-Sakura
-Kurotsuchi/Temari/Hinata


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## FlamingRain (Jul 22, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> Databook says yugito can control her tailed beast transformation.



Nice try. The data-book reads: _*"she was able to control her transformation into Nibi at will"*_,

instead of something along the lines of,

_*"she was able to control her Nibi transformation [at will]"*_.

It just means she can let Matatabi take over when she feels like it. The beast is still acting of its own accord.



> And yes it does none of the kage can take a tailed beast1v1 bar hashirama.



Really? I seem to recall that a single boss summon was able to remain competitive enough with Shukaku to exchange with him prior to the participation of his summoner, and the Fourth Kazekage used to subdue it on a regular basis.

A mere C1 bomb knocked out Isobu.

We know that offenses at the very most on the level of Kakuzu's were sufficient to injure Matatabi because if they weren't Hidan would never have gotten the blood required for his ritual, and you're seriously going to tell me that no Kage bar Hashirama can take on a Tailed Beast?


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## OG Appachai (Jul 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Nice try. The data-book reads: _*"she was able to control her transformation into Nibi at will"*_,
> 
> instead of something along the lines of,
> 
> ...



Okay i misread it, but even so, that level of control is still quite good when compared to other hosts. Even naruto couldn't do squat until his training with killer bee. He could only access the power when he was angry or in life threatning situations.

A rampaging tailed beast is more than tsunade can handle.





FlamingRain said:


> Really? I seem to recall that a single boss summon was able to remain competitive enough with Shukaku to exchange with him prior to the participation of his summoner, and the Fourth Kazekage used to subdue it on a regular basis.



Hmm i recall a fight where that boss summon could do nothing to harm said tailed beast, with its host in a unstable mindset, and the only way they won was because said tailed beast was parading around with its weak spot on its forehead and barely participating in the fight because it was just happy to be out.

And that was a testament to the power of the 4th kazekage's power and AoE techs to match the shukaku, tsunade has none of this.



FlamingRain said:


> A mere C1 bomb knocked out Isobu.


Fight was off paneled after that initial attack, the beasts can tank their own bijuudama, i find it highly unlikely that a simple c1 can K.O. a tailed beast. For all we know obito could have just controlled it during the fight causing it to submit.



FlamingRain said:


> We know that offenses at the very most on the level of Kakuzu's were sufficient to injure Matatabi because if they weren't Hidan would never have gotten the blood required for his ritual, and you're seriously going to tell me that no Kage bar Hashirama can take on a Tailed Beast?


once again the fight was off panled, we dont know the circumstances on how they won. Whos to say that they didnt get a drop of drop before she turned into her bijuu? Ive never seen a bijuu bleed, have you? Once again, bijuu can take their own bijuu dama and survive with just burn marks, thats levels upon levels above what tsunade can dishout.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Really? I seem to recall that a single boss summon was able to remain competitive enough with *Shukaku*



Shukaku, a Tailed Beast not even intelligent enough to utilize its Tailed Beast Bomb (assuming it had been even invented by Kishimoto at that point). 

Not going to bother why explaining how equating a Tailed Beast acting drunk of its own accord to a Jinchuriki with partial mastery with its Tailed Beast (and thus, co-operation with it as well - meaning any lack of intelligence and tactics would be covered by Yugito), is anything but logical.



> to exchange with him prior to the participation of his summoner, and the Fourth Kazekage used to subdue it on a regular basis.



An entire desert at your disposal indeed helps. It's sad that Tsunade lacks that sort of range, area-of-effect, etc.



> A mere C1 bomb knocked out Isobu.



Oh, c'mon, when we've seen that Tailed Beasts are capable of shrugging off roars from Tailed Beast Mode Naruto, _getting hurled into each other_, slammed into the ground by Kurama's full body weight, and implied to be able to survive point-blank Tailed Beast Bombs, is the possibility of the Three-Tails getting knocked out by a C1 bomb likely?

I'll tell you: *no.* And we didn't even see the rest of the fight; it was implied to last much longer given Tobi was cheering about how his power was the major factor in his and Deidara's victory - a notion that Deidara only slightly contradicted.



> We know that offenses at the very most on the level of Kakuzu's were sufficient to injure Matatabi because* if they weren't Hidan would never have gotten the blood required for his ritual*, and you're seriously going to tell me that no Kage bar Hashirama can take on a Tailed Beast?



Uh, we also have no idea how Hidan got the blood. For all we know, the Immortal Duo could have played dead (something they're very good at, by the way), Yugito reverted back to her human form, and got ambushed.


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## OG Appachai (Jul 23, 2014)

dam muffin, stole my thunder lol. But you did explain everything better than me haha reps mate.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 23, 2014)

Not counting Kaguya, since she technically predates the shinobi system and therefore can't really be called a "kunoichi."


*Top Tier*

Sakura
Mito
Kushina
Tsunade
Yugito

*Mid Tier*

Mei
Chiyo
Konan
Fu
Karin

*Low Tier*

All the rest


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## ARGUS (Jul 23, 2014)

1. Kaguya
2. Mito
3. Kushina
4. Konan
5. Tsunade
6. Mei
7. Sakura
8. Temari
9. Hinata
10. Tenten


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## trance (Jul 23, 2014)

Counting only living kunoichi...

1. Tsunade
2. Mei
3. Sakura

_-Large Gap-_

4. Temari/Hinata

_-Smaller Gap-_

5. Tenten

_-Large Gap-_

6. Karin


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## Alex Payne (Jul 23, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> Fight was off paneled after that initial attack, the beasts can tank their own bijuudama, i find it highly unlikely that a simple c1 can K.O. a tailed beast. For all we know obito could have just controlled it during the fight causing it to submit.





ATastyMuffin said:


> Oh, c'mon, when we've seen that Tailed Beasts are capable of shrugging off roars from Tailed Beast Mode Naruto, _getting hurled into each other_, slammed into the ground by Kurama's full body weight, and implied to be able to survive point-blank Tailed Beast Bombs, is the possibility of the Three-Tails getting knocked out by a C1 bomb likely?
> 
> I'll tell you: *no.* And we didn't even see the rest of the fight; it was implied to last much longer given Tobi was cheering about how his power was the major factor in his and Deidara's victory - a notion that Deidara only slightly contradicted.



*Sanbi (三尾, "Three-Tails")*
A giant turtle with a hard shell. Not having a "Jinchuuriki," it lived at the bottom of a lake. It was silenced by Deidara's "Exploding Clay" and captured.

. Which was out way after Tobi was revealed to be "Madara". Kishimoto had no reason to hide his true powers at that point. Yet he clearly states that it was Deidara. 

I don't think it was C1 though. Likely something similar to what ET Deidara used to flop that giant Turtle Island. But it was still Deidara's Exploding Clay.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Not going to bother why explaining how equating a Tailed Beast acting drunk of its own accord to a Jinchuriki with partial mastery with its Tailed Beast (and thus, co-operation with it as well - meaning any lack of intelligence and tactics would be covered by Yugito), is anything but logical.



This is what happens when you don't read the whole post, because I already answered this.

There will be no cooperation and tactics being covered by Yugito, because Yugito has not mastered Matatabi's actual transformation, she can only decide when she wants to transform into her. Matatabi is still acting of her own accord afterwards.



> An entire desert at your disposal indeed helps. It's sad that Tsunade lacks that sort of range, area-of-effect, etc.



I have yet to see a sand-defense adequate to tank a Bijūdama like some people are implying is mandatory.



> Oh, c'mon, when we've seen that Tailed Beasts are capable of shrugging off roars from Tailed Beast Mode Naruto, _getting hurled into each other_, slammed into the ground by Kurama's full body weight, and implied to be able to survive point-blank Tailed Beast Bombs, is the possibility of the Three-Tails getting knocked out by a C1 bomb likely?



We know that Tailed Beasts care capable of shrugging off those roars _when under the control of Obito_, not when they are acting autonomously. They don't have control over their own powers when they're acting out by themselves for the most part.

And the Three Tails's entry in the data-book, which is just Kishimoto writing (not acting IC for somebody), says "Instead of a Jinchūriki host, it inhabited the bottom of a lake. Deidara uses a clay bomb and successfully captures it." Nothing besides what we already saw happened.

If you're referring to idiot-Tobi's comment afterwards, he was just making stuff up to joke around, he didn't actually do crap, which is why Deidara was so irritated with him afterwards.



> Uh, we also have no idea how Hidan got the blood. For all we know, the Immortal Duo could have played dead (something they're very good at, by the way), Yugito reverted back to her human form, and got ambushed.



That's a terrible estimate considering what we did see. We saw Hidan after the fight and he hadn't sustained any life-threatening injuries besides the impalement with his own weapon (his clothes aren't even roughed up), which was most likely voluntary, and Kakuzu had already revealed that Domu could stand up to Matatabi's power, so that's not a conceivable tactic unless you think that she whipped out a Bijūdama later and Kakuzu survived that while pretending not to, or Matatabi is just so much of an idiot that she won't resort to her blast anyway.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Kushina wasn't a perfect Jin.
> 
> And throwing a Kunai at Matabi won't do anything.



Spirit Kushina taught Naruto how to become a perfect jin.

Minato built the rasengan off study of the bijuudama.  It took 4 years to research, develop, and train.

So either his wife could transform and show and explain to him the technique, or Minato ran around fighting enemy bijuu and perfect jin and let them shoot bijuudama at him as he ported up to their mouths to get a closer look until he finally gathered enough details.

Unless by perfect you mean were friends with the bijuu, in which case we're talking about different things.  I just mean full control of the bijuu chakra and transformations.

Karen and Obito showed us you can stab those chakra chains into people and giant things for mass damage and destruction.  Given that Kushina showed a level of control able to wrap and tie them around a bijuu, and Karen and Obito showed only the amount of control able to spit them out in front of them, Kushina should be able to stab up and kill people with those chains.  Unless you're going to say that blindly throwing a spike forward is way harder then making them move according to your will in patterns, or somehow don't relate.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Spirit Kushina taught Naruto how to become a perfect jin.



She never taught him how to become a perfect Jin, she helped in taking a portion of Kurama's chakra, Bee was the one that taught him how to do it. 



> Minato built the rasengan off study of the bijuudama.  It took 4 years to research, develop, and train.



What's your point? Are you seriously he had Kushina go through all the pain of turning into Kurama? Kurama did not like *anyone* up until Naruto. You don't have to be up close and personal to something to study it, he could have just as easily picked up a scroll on Bijudamas and studied off that. 



> So either his wife could transform and show and explain to him the technique, or Minato ran around fighting enemy bijuu and perfect jin and let them shoot bijuudama at him as he ported up to their mouths to get a closer look until he finally gathered enough details.



Or he studied off a scroll, which is by far the most reasonable and least far-fetched option. 



> Unless by perfect you mean were friends with the bijuu, in which case we're talking about different things.  I just mean full control of the bijuu chakra and transformations.



Minato would need have Kushina turn into Kurama just to study a Bijudama, he obviously studied off a scroll. 



> Karen and Obito showed us you can stab those chakra chains into people and giant things for mass damage and destruction.  Given that Kushina showed a level of control able to wrap and tie them around a bijuu, and Karen and Obito showed only the amount of control able to spit them out in front of them, Kushina should be able to stab up and kill people with those chains.  Unless you're going to say that blindly throwing a spike forward is way harder then making them move according to your will in patterns, or somehow don't relate.



Karen never stabbed them into anyone, she was simply waving them around, and given the Buddha's hands poor durability, his hands where cut in the process. Obito did not use the same chains as Kushina and Karen, those chains where the same chains the Mazu uses to seal and control Biju's.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2014)

Give me a plausible explanation for the purpose of this scroll, of who wrote this scroll, where this scroll was kept, and how it came into Minato's hands, and what happened to this scroll after he finished with it, using canon sources to support your claims.  

Or give me a decent fanfic.  

I would like it to be less farfetched than his wife having learned the jutsu from the previous host, and being able to use at least 4 tails of Kurama's chakra.

I'd also like to know why Orochimaru, the guy who studied forbidden jutsu and absorbed all the knowledge on all the strongest jutsu, never read or heard about these common scrolls, because he had no idea how a bijuudama worked or what was happening.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Mito and Kushina are part of Konoha's history and thus they're canonically weaker than Tsunade, because according to Kishimoto "Tsunade is the strongest kunoichi in Konoha history".



I do think Tsunade is stronger than Kushina, but I'm really not sure about Mito. We're talking about the same woman who had used Kurama's chakra to learn how to sense negative emotions, something apparently only accessible when you have _significant_ control over the bijuu. In Naruto's case that meant KCM. Bare in mind Kushina was unable to use this ability, so Mito could clearly harness the power of Kurama to a greater extent than she could. Basically, if Mito was able to utilise Kurama's chakra to any great extent without it fully possessing her body, she definitely would have had a great speed advantage over Tsunade.

Mito was also a pure blooded Uzumaki, as opposed to Tsunade who was a Senju-Uzumaki hybrid (not to mention the possibility of those genes being watered down even further with her mother/father potentially having married into another non-bloodline clan). Her life force was likely even greater than Tsunade's, meaning her ability to get wounded and live through the damage was potentially at an even higher level than her grand-daughter's. Combine that with Kurama's regeneration, and Mito functions as a pseudo-Tsunade.

Not to mention Mito was skilled enough to seal all of Kurama inside of herself, something even Minato couldn't do. Then she's also got the Byakugou seal on her fore-head. I personally believe that she could store massive amounts of chakra in her fore-head like Tsunade/Sakura could, but just couldn't use it for regenerative purposes. So Mito was clearly incredibly gifted at fuinjutsu.

We also have to factor in that she married the First Hokage, head of the strongest living clan in the world at that point in time. As such, she was more than likely a prestigious and well respected member of the Uzumaki clan herself.

In all possibility, Kishimoto simply may not have given much thought to Mito's power or ability when he wrote Tsunade in as being the strongest female. I'm certainly not beyond considering that Tsunade may have surpassed her grand-mother, but from we've seen/heard of Mito, I would expect her to be stronger.​​


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Give me a plausible explanation for the purpose of this scroll, of who wrote this scroll, where this scroll was kept, and how it came into Minato's hands, and what happened to this scroll after he finished with it, using canon sources to support your claims.



Its actually very obvious. Purpose of the scroll is like the purpose of any Ninjutsu scroll, record and study Ninjutsu. Hashirama wrote the scroll. The scroll was kept where all the scrolls are usually kept (It was in the Hokage lodge or something, can't remember) and assuming it was not a restricted scroll (I don't see why it would be), Minato simply picked it up wherever you pick up scrolls to study. That should be enough. And don't demand me raw canon sources when you speculated yourself. 




> I would like it to be less farfetched than his wife having learned the jutsu from the previous host, and being able to use at least 4 tails of Kurama's chakra.



She couldn't learned Jutsu from Mito, as she was just a child when she became a Jinchuriki and Mito died from the extraction. Kushina just like Mito, told Kurama off, it appeared that Kurama was literally chained to some sort of object just before Obito Genjutsu'd him and summoned him. 



> I'd also like to know why Orochimaru, the guy who studied forbidden jutsu and absorbed all the knowledge on all the strongest jutsu, never read or heard about these common scrolls, because he had no idea how a bijuudama worked or what was happening.



Why would he be interested in Bijudama's? That's a Jinchuriki only ability, he never had any plans to become a Jinchuriki.


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## Cord (Jul 23, 2014)

Where was it stated that Tsunade *is* the strongest kunoichi in "Konoha history" again?


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## ueharakk (Jul 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato built the rasengan off study of the bijuudama.  It took 4 years to research, develop, and train.
> 
> So either his wife could transform and show and explain to him the technique, or Minato ran around fighting enemy bijuu and perfect jin and let them shoot bijuudama at him as he ported up to their mouths to get a closer look until he finally gathered enough details.
> 
> Unless by perfect you mean were friends with the bijuu, in which case we're talking about different things.  I just mean full control of the bijuu chakra and transformations.



Or minato being the genius he was observed the technique once and figured it out after three years of practicing, hypothesizing and independent research.

Considering he was able to do use chakra arms, rasengans, and the bijuu avatar just as well as Naruto despite not having a training arc nor having all that experience from the war, I find minato coming up with the idea after one or two observations highly more probable than Kushina being able to control a transformation into the 100% Kurama.  Especially when the manga stated that you need to be friendly with the bijuu in order to do a controlled transformation.


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## Trojan (Jul 23, 2014)

1- Kaguya
2- Kushina
3- the rest.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Or minato being the genius he was observed the technique once and figured it out after three years of practicing, hypothesizing and independent research.
> 
> Considering he was able to do use chakra arms, rasengans, and the bijuu avatar just as well as Naruto despite not having a training arc nor having all that experience from the war, I find minato coming up with the idea after one or two observations highly more probable than Kushina being able to control a transformation into the 100% Kurama.  Especially when the manga stated that you need to be friendly with the bijuu in order to do a controlled transformation.



Minato befriended the kyuubi and trained in the death god's stomach.  Just like Haku trained in hell.

You can control transformations to a lesser extent without being friendly with the bijuu.  Naruto could keep control up to several tails after training with Jiraiya.  The way the training was talked about made it seem as if the number of tails he could remain stable while accessing was increasing through training.  Kushina also had the  kyuubi locked up on a rock, and could pull chakra from it at will, and use that to fuel transformations.  Similar to how Naruto entered KCM mode, and that mode gave him access to the bijuudama, which he attempted on Sandaime, but didn't master until the Obito saga.

I don't actually think the must be friends thing is iron clad.  Bee and Hachibi had Naruto try a transformation knowing that he wasn't friendly with the bijuu, so there should have been some chance of success.  Hachibi then states that he and Bee went through the chakra trade phase before they became actual friends, but we see that Bee was able to use partial transformations as far back as the Shinobi war with Minato.

We also have every bijuu and previous host using different levels of tails during the war as edos, most of them with moves and styles reliant on free access to one or more tails.  Mito also seemed to have full control, despite the flashback to the kyuubi showed her not being friendly with it, and just being a prison guard.  So there's some element of brute force involved or partial understanding or something else going on there.  Naruto might have had troubles, but he doesn't have the chakra chain technique, or access to the sealing mastery of the Uzumaki clan.  

Though it's possible Minato just did his genius thing.  On the topic of genius, I don't really like that it was implied Minato made the rasengan at least 4 years before his son's birth as a gift to his future child in case his son became a Jinchuuriki and his mother died and he needed to learn the bijuudama but isn't friendly with his bijuu.  But if Kishi think I'm supposed to believe that's really what happened, and it wasn't just Bee going ham, it makes your explanation more likely.  



> Hashirama wrote the scroll.



Make it Tobirama.  He's the guy who actually wrote scrolls and invented every jutsu.  Anyway, I'll accept it as possible.



> She couldn't learned Jutsu from Mito, as she was just a child when she became a Jinchuriki and Mito died from the extraction.



Mito wrote her a scroll she study from, which is by far the most reasonable and least far-fetched option.

^This is partially why I don't favor scroll based explanations.


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## ueharakk (Jul 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato befriended the kyuubi and trained in the death god's stomach.  Just like Haku trained in hell.


There's no evidence for either of those things, in fact all the evidence suggests otherwise as Zabuza doesn't remember anything happening between his death and his resurrection, how can haku even train in the afterlife if he doesn't have a real body or even chakra, the Shikifuujin was stated to lock the people sealed into it in eternal combat, and Kurama telling minato about Naruto would suggest they are not on friendly terms.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You can control transformations to a lesser extent without being friendly with the bijuu.  Naruto could keep control up to several tails after training with Jiraiya.  The way the training was talked about made it seem as if the number of tails he could remain stable while accessing was increasing through training.  Kushina also had the  kyuubi locked up on a rock, and could pull chakra from it at will, and use that to fuel transformations.  Similar to how Naruto entered KCM mode, and that mode gave him access to the bijuudama, which he attempted on Sandaime, but didn't master until the Obito saga.


Naruto could only use the bijuudama in KCM because he knew the rasengan which means if the rasengan had not been created there's no way kushina could create a bijuudama in that mode.  not only that but Naruto was heavily implied to have had the most control over the Kyuubi in his KCM state than anyone before him.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't actually think the must be friends thing is iron clad.  Bee and Hachibi had Naruto try a transformation knowing that he wasn't friendly with the bijuu, so there should have been some chance of success.  Hachibi then states that he and Bee went through the chakra trade phase before they became actual friends, but we see that Bee was able to use partial transformations as far back as the Shinobi war with Minato.


partial transformations like tentacles would be the equivalent of KCM Naruto's chakra arms.  



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> We also have every bijuu and previous host using different levels of tails during the war as edos, most of them with moves and styles reliant on free access to one or more tails.  Mito also seemed to have full control, despite the flashback to the kyuubi showed her not being friendly with it, and just being a prison guard.  So there's some element of brute force involved or partial understanding or something else going on there.  Naruto might have had troubles, but he doesn't have the chakra chain technique, or access to the sealing mastery of the Uzumaki clan.


Neither Kushina nor Mito were ever in anyway shape or form implied to have any control over Kurama.  The only information we have about them is that the kyuubi was sealed into one and then the other.  The manga heavily implies that everyone before Naruto were not on good terms with kurama.
I don't understand what chakra chain technique or the seal has to do with one's ability to transform into the beast and have full control over that transformation.


\


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2014)

Haku aside, there's evidence that the Death God's stomach functions differently from the normal afterlife.  For one, they say that anyone sealed inside doesn't get to go to the normal afterlife.  Hiruzen also said that he and Orochimaru would spend eternity battling it out in the Death God's stomach.  That implies that unlike in normal death, you actually get to do and remember things.  Though Hashirama seemed unaware that there was a 4th Hokage, so it's probably that each soul not linked to one another isn't aware of the others in the stomach.  Which doesn't matter for Minato, since the Kyuubi's consciousness was still housed inside his spirit.

Given the choice between Minato spending 16 years befriending the kyuubi as they sat together with no one else to talk to as they got digested, and Minato and the Kyuubi waking up and suddenly deciding to become buddies as well as Minato mastering a new form with no training or real knowledge on the subject in two seconds, I'll take the first one.  Particularly since I have no reason to believe the Kyuubi would decide to befriend him when his last conscious memory was of Minato ripping his soul in half and sending him to a fate worse than death.



> Neither Kushina nor Mito were ever in anyway shape or form implied to have any control over Kurama. The only information we have about them is that the kyuubi was sealed into one and then the other. The manga heavily implies that everyone before Naruto were not on good terms with kurama.



Kushina was sealed inside Naruto to teach him how to be a proper Jinchuuriki and master the Kyuubi chakra.  This heavily implies that Kushina knew how to be a proper Jinchuuriki and had mastery of the Kyuubi chakra.  



> I don't understand what chakra chain technique or the seal has to do with one's ability to transform into the beast and have full control over that transformation.



It's been implied and shown in the manga, through all the examples mentioned, and by how Obito was able to control the bijuu in fully transformed states with chakra chains and brute force, that there is an alternative path to brute forcing your way to controlling bijuu.  

Particularly through chains.
chakra trade phase
chakra trade phase
chakra trade phase
chakra trade phase
chakra trade phase

The Monkey says that he can't control himself or his attacks, and he also says that if the chains binding him in mindspace go away, he can control himself and help Naruto.  Which means that you can forcibly control a fully transformed bijuu if you've got them bound with those special chains.  

Those particular chains were transferred through the outer path, but they're otherwise identical in use and looks and properties to the ones used by Kushina.  As is the binding that the fire monkey has, when compared to the binding Kushina had on the Kyuubi.  

More stuff on chains, and why Kushina's chains and chakra are special and super anti-bijuu control.

Kushina's chakra was used to help Naruto control the bijuu because it turns into bijuu chains.
binding Kushina had on the Kyuubi.

Kushina's chakra is special.
binding Kushina had on the Kyuubi.

Kushina's chakra is instantly recognizable which means it was used to subdue the kyuubi before.
binding Kushina had on the Kyuubi.

She outright states she's spectacular at bijuu taming.
binding Kushina had on the Kyuubi.

So basically, Kushina had chakra chains.  We see that chakra chains let you control even a fully transformed bijuu against their will.  We see that the mindscape chain binding that let the Monkey be totally and forcefully controlled is identical to the mindscape chain binding Kushina had on the Kyuubi.  This leads me to believe Kushina could fully control the 9 tails in all it's states without being on good terms with it.  So yeah, I think there's a lot of reason to think that Kushina could control her transformations.  

Naruto doesn't have the chains, so the brute force approach was never available to him.  The same with Bee.  It's be friends or bust.  That might be why Kumo really wanted her special chakra, given their astounding failure rate with hosts.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 23, 2014)

Kaguya

Mito

Kushina

Sakura

Tsunade

Konan/Mei

Mei/Konan

Karin

Fuu

Chiyo

Yugito

Onoki Grandaughter

Temari/Ino

Ino/Temari

Shizune

Hinata

Anko

Kurenai


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 23, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> 1) Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
> 2) Mito Uzumaki
> 3) Tsunade
> 4) Sakura Haruno
> ...




Did you read the flashback of the Kyuubi attack, because seeing what Kushina did against Kurama, and also Naruto's statement about being stronger than mum, even after he had KCM , how could you conclude that Mei, Konan, Tsunade are stronger than Kushina, also it has been indicated that Sakura surpassed Tsunade in this war.


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## ueharakk (Jul 24, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Given the choice between Minato spending 16 years befriending the kyuubi as they sat together with no one else to talk to as they got digested, and Minato and the Kyuubi waking up and suddenly deciding to become buddies as well as Minato mastering a new form with no training or real knowledge on the subject in two seconds, I'll take the first one.  Particularly since I have no reason to believe the Kyuubi would decide to befriend him when his last conscious memory was of Minato ripping his soul in half and sending him to a fate worse than death.


Or the third option is that once the yin kyuubi exited the shikigami's stomach, it was able to mentally link up to Yang kurama and from there it shared its chakra with minato since yang kurama was talk no jutsu'd by naruto.

Minato didn't 'master' then new form in 2 seconds, he used it, and then observed naruto doing stuff with his KCM forms and then he started copying it.  




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kushina was sealed inside Naruto to teach him how to be a proper Jinchuuriki and master the Kyuubi chakra.  This heavily implies that Kushina knew how to be a proper Jinchuuriki and had mastery of the Kyuubi chakra.


but Kushina didn't teach naruto anything about being a jinchuriki, all she did was help him in his fight against the Kyuubi and then tell him the story about Minato.  




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's been implied and shown in the manga, through all the examples mentioned, and by how Obito was able to control the bijuu in fully transformed states with chakra chains and brute force, that there is an alternative path to brute forcing your way to controlling bijuu.
> 
> Particularly through chains.
> frozen in a block of ice
> ...


Except Obito didn't control them through just chakra chains, he controlled them through the sharingan, the rinnegan's outer path (chakra chains) and gedou mazou.  That's why the bijuu were still under his control despite Naruto removing the black chakra rods.  

Kushina's chakra chains have never been implied to be capable of controlling anything, only binding like Obito did to KCM Naruto and Bee.  Also, if Kushina so powerful that she could actually control the 100% Kurama, then obviously her name would be as widely known as people like Madara and Hashirama as they were the only ones who were capable of controlling a bijuu.  If she was capable of controlling 100% Kurama, she would have probably been the third most powerful known shinobi in history, only behind Hashirama and Madara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 24, 2014)

Did you read the pages?

That's totally what was implied.

I'm also going to label the parts of this I find to be strong, and weak.  

*Strong*

Monkey tells Naruto he needs the chains gone so his actions won't be controlled.  Naruto removes the chains.  The monkey doesn't have his actions controlled anymore.  He states the only reason he isn't free to roam as he pleases, is because the center chain still exists.  The center chain is what's binding the Bijuu to the Jin host, which is how he could be pulled back into the Mazo.

The chains were being broadcast to the different Jin, and by the non center chains, to the bijuu, by way of the outer path.  Yes, Obito was using the Mazo to mold the bijuu's chakra, but only as a substitute for what the Jinchuuriki can naturally do themselves if they weren't a zombie, and perhaps because he's controlling 7 at once.

If you break down the express purposes for each power used to control the Jins and Bijuu, instead of lumping them together as a bijuu control package, you can see why it works.

Gedo Mazo: Provide the chains, mold the chakra.
Chains:  Subdue and control the bijuu.
Rinnegan/Outer Path:  Broadcast the special chakra from the Gedo that forms the chains.
Obito: Manage the above.
*Sharingan:  Nothing as far as I can remember.  None of the bijuu got sharingan eyes like the Kyuubi did when he was controlled back in Konoha.

_*Needs research_

In Kushina's situation, the chains to subdue and control the bijuu are innate to her, so she doesn't need the gedo mazo.
Molding the bijuu's chakra is an act performed by the jinchuuriki
Since all actions effecing the bijuu are internal to herself, is no need to broadcast her chakra through the outer path.
The sharingan is not needed, as the bijuu is not outside of a host.

*Medium-Strong:*

So yes, I do think she could control the nine-tails.  Yes, this would make her exceptionally strong, as she would have roughly twice the chakra available to her as Naruto, as well as fuin jutsu superior to Minatos, as well as full Uzumaki vitality and lineage, as well as chains, as well as probably decent taijutsu.  Statement wise, Minato remarked several times during the war that he felt reassured fighting next to Naruto, because it reminded him of fighting alongside Kushina, and how comforting that was.  Minato was Minato, and if he's happy his girlfriend has his back, instead of worried that his waifu is in danger, she's got to be high tier.  Particularly how his typical missions during the war involved soloing armies.  That's why when the SO6Paths mentions having ridiculously awesome prodigious parents is no assurance the child will turn out amazing, he turns to Naruto and says, "But you already know that, don't you?" and it flashes to Minato and Kushina.

*Weak*
_(due largely to canon being unconvincing, as well as my not having not looked back at it)_

Now if you're wondering why we didn't hear about the legend of Kushina, Kishi explained that.  Sort of.  Kushina's jin status was kept secret like Naruto's was supposed to have been, and they asked her not to use her full power all too much.  Despite her being a an active Jonin at war.  Who fought back to back with Minato in desperate situations.  I don't know how that works.  Though I still can't figure out how two people killed the Uchiha clan without any ninja noticing or any struggle in a few short hours.  I don't find it grounds for rejection, but I'm not happy with it either.  

*Medium*

It's also a poor argument, because there have been many times in this manga where someone we never heard about until just now gets revealed to be famous and amazing.  Tobirama, for instance, gained a truckload of hype despite seldom ever being mentioned, as was the case with Hanzo, and Shisui, and lots of other dudes.  

*Weak*

However if I wanted t stretch, and there's been enough of that, a person could say that the rumors from part 1 of the Kyuubi being a wandering natural disaster that just showed up randomly and destroyed shinobi before vanishing were actually of Kushina and perhaps Mito, using their full transformations to fight for Konoha, given that it's been in their unbroken possession for the past 100 something years, and prior to that he seemed to just chill in a forest grove.  But since most people didn't know the Kyuubi had a jin, they just thought it was random kaijuu attacks.  Otherwise it's a recton, and I'm happy to say it is.

Oh, I shouldn't leave on a weak note.  But I really can't argue anymore without review.  Unlike some other people who think Kushina was probably and was supposed to be awesome, I don't really expect people to believe it just because I do, partially because everyone has their own emphasis on evidence types, and in large part because it's not explicit.  Kushina may be treated or referred to as strong, but if you build her abilities, you get a staggering result, while dismissing her abilities gives you someone completely pathetic, and which result your more comfortable with depends on how much you hate women and soul less gingers your personal preference in those regards.  I still think the lower end of, "Kushina could control 4 tails and use the mini-bijuudama Naruto used Orochimaru," is reasonable for a Jonin and lifetime Jin regardless.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 24, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Did you read the flashback of the Kyuubi attack, because seeing what Kushina did against Kurama, and also Naruto's statement about being stronger than mum, even after he had KCM , how could you conclude that Mei, Konan, Tsunade are stronger than Kushina, also it has been indicated that Sakura surpassed Tsunade in this war.



What did Kushina do against Kurama exactly? Hold it down with some chains? That would fail to be of any great use against Mei, Tsunade or Konan, who could stop themselves from being bound and/or attack Kushina before that ever happened. Otherwise, Kushina used Kage Bunshin clones in the same way as Naruto does, as Tsunade notes that their ninjutsu style was very similar. 

So basically, from what we know of Kushina she could use chakra chains, spammed shadow clones, and had some limited control over Kurama. From that, I don't gather that she was any stronger than the other women in the series.

Also, Sakura hasn't yet surpassed Tsunade. She doesn't have her resilience, durability (and hence effectiveness with using Byakugou in battle) and hasn't shown to possess as large base chakra reserves as Tsunade either. Tsunade's raw strength is also infinitely greater than Sakura's, and as an Uzumaki she can live through almost any attack. Sakura may have out-done Tsunade in chakra control and striking power, but nothing else.​​


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## Alex Payne (Jul 24, 2014)

Kushina
 Tsunade
 Yugito Nii
 Mito

 Chiyo
 Mei 
 Sakura
 Konan
 Fū 

 Kurenai
 Temari
 Karin
 Shizune

 Anko
 Hinata
 Ino

 Tayuya

Something like that. Lacking solid info on most.


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## Turrin (Jul 24, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> What did Kushina do against Kurama exactly? Hold it down with some chains? That would fail to be of any great use against Mei, Tsunade or Konan, who could stop themselves from being bound and/or attack Kushina before that ever happened. Otherwise, Kushina used Kage Bunshin clones in the same way as Naruto does, as Tsunade notes that their ninjutsu style was very similar.
> 
> So basically, from what we know of Kushina she could use chakra chains, spammed shadow clones, and had some limited control over Kurama. From that, I don't gather that she was any stronger than the other women in the series.


There's really no point in comparing Kushina to other characters based on shown abilities. Kushina had only a handful of panels to show anything and in both cases she was significantly weakened. What we should compare them on is accomplishments and statements; basically the author's intent.

Kushina on her death bed was able to create a barrier that could contain 100% Kurama's attacks as well as bind the beast complete. It was even stated she could re-seal the beast again despite her condition. Than as a mere fragment of chakra inside Naruto she was able to once again completely bind 50% Kurama. Both are absolutely monstrous accomplishments of strength and skill. Than we can look at someone as in experienced as Karin who was able to use less chains and still beat back Shin SuuSenju. So Bijuu or otherwise these powers are nothing to fuck. And the DB even says the Sannin acknowledge Kushina's immense skill with Ninjutsu and she taught Minato everything he knows about Fuuinjutsu. Than we can also assume at the very least she could use KN0 and KN1-3 if start of Part II Naruto could do so and w/o having Kushina's all mighty chakra (at that time). Those forms alone when at 100% Kurama power would be incredibly difficult to deal with - ontop of her Uzamaki chains and incredible mastery of Fuuinjutsu. Than we have Minato comparing BSM Naruto to Kushina.


There is no reason to put Mei and Konan in the discussion at all. Tsunade is the only one worth even considering and even than there is every reason to consider it a very strong possibility that Kushina is stronger.



> Also, Sakura hasn't yet surpassed Tsunade. She doesn't have her resilience, durability (and hence effectiveness with using Byakugou in battle) and hasn't shown to possess as large base chakra reserves as Tsunade either. Tsunade's raw strength is also infinitely greater than Sakura's, and as an Uzumaki she can live through almost any attack. Sakura may have out-done Tsunade in chakra control and striking power, but nothing else.



Chakra-Control is a fundamental aspect of everything Tsunade and Sakura do as Medical Ninja. The moment Sakura surpassed Tsunade (by a fairly significant margin i might add) in this respect she became better than Tsunade in pretty much everything. 

Taijutsu, Medical-Ninjutsu, Byakugo-Seal, Striking-Power, and Summoning are all dependent on chakra control. So Sakura is better now in all of those regards . There is really not much left for Tsunade to be better in, when she is inferior in chakra control. 

She has exp on her side and might have mastered more jutsu than Sakura, but that is not enough to put her higher than Sakura; anymore than Jiriaya who still holds these things over Naruto, is better than Naruto.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 25, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> Where was it stated that Tsunade *is* the strongest kunoichi in "Konoha history" again?



Right behind Jiraiya and Orochimaru's descriptions in the second guidebook/first fanbook authored by Kishi.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> We're talking about the same woman who had used Kurama's chakra to learn how to sense negative emotions, something apparently only accessible when you have _significant_ control over the bijuu. In Naruto's case that meant KCM. Bare in mind Kushina was unable to use this ability, so Mito could clearly harness the power of Kurama to a greater extent than she could. Basically, if Mito was able to utilise Kurama's chakra to any great extent without it fully possessing her body, she definitely would have had a great speed advantage over Tsunade.



That still leaves Tsunade with the physical strength advantage over Mito alongside the slug that just won't die for some reason and her medical Ninjutsu.



> Mito was also a pure blooded Uzumaki, as opposed to Tsunade who was a Senju-Uzumaki hybrid (not to mention the possibility of those genes being watered down even further with her mother/father potentially having married into another non-bloodline clan). Her life force was likely even greater than Tsunade's, meaning her ability to get wounded and live through the damage was potentially at an even higher level than her grand-daughter's. Combine that with Kurama's regeneration, and Mito functions as a pseudo-Tsunade.



I wouldn't be too sure about that if we consider that we've seen ninja brought back by Edo Tensei such as Haku, Zabuza, and Hanzo die as they would in life until their regeneration eventually kicked in, and then that Tobirama never died after half of his head alongside a large chunk of his torso was blown off. He was also taking forever to die off when Madara turned him into swiss cheese. The Senju and Uzumaki are cousins descended from the strong-bodied younger son, so mixing between the two isn't likely to decrease Tsunade's damage soak imho (and I like to use the blood of both of those clans running so strongly in Tsunade as the most logical explanation for such high base strength that seemingly eclipses what each of the others have anyway, so I don't think gene dilution is a problem).



> Not to mention Mito was skilled enough to seal all of Kurama inside of herself, something even Minato couldn't do. Then she's also got the Byakugou seal on her fore-head. I personally believe that she could store massive amounts of chakra in her fore-head like Tsunade/Sakura could, but just couldn't use it for regenerative purposes. So Mito was clearly incredibly gifted at fuinjutsu.



I don't know if sealing Kurama was an issue of skill so much as an issue of hardiness and/or compatibility, considering that Kushina was planning on dragging Kurama back into herself before dying and instead of an admission that Minato wasn't fluent enough to seal the entire thing we got "physically impossible".

Even so, I do agree that Mito was clearly incredibly gifted at Fūinjutsu, as one of the prominent members of a clan that specializes in it. It's just that...Tsunade didn't have the mark on her forehead in the Nawaki/Dan flashbacks prior to her self-imposed exile from the village (and subsequently contact with the villagers, like Mito) and even her contemporary Orochimaru was shocked when the release pattern first appeared on her forehead, with only Shizune apparently recognizing it.

I think that the seal was developed alongside Sōzō Saisei, and that when Tsunade came up with it she just modeled her it after Mito's mark out of affection for her grandmother. For all we know the diamond could have been to Mito what whiskers are to Naruto.



> We also have to factor in that she married the First Hokage, head of the strongest living clan in the world at that point in time. As such, she was more than likely a prestigious and well respected member of the Uzumaki clan herself.



I agree.

I'm not trying to disparage Mito and say that she's not strong; I just don't think she's _as_ strong as Tsunade, never mind outright _stronger_.



> In all possibility, Kishimoto simply may not have given much thought to Mito's power or ability when he wrote Tsunade in as being the strongest female. I'm certainly not beyond considering that Tsunade may have surpassed her grand-mother, but from we've seen/heard of Mito, I would expect her to be stronger.



It's possible, but I don't quite think it's probable.

Kishi had drafted Sage Jiraiya with Ma and Pa shoulder-pads as well as Pain (and their arc was the one where the Madara/fox attack connection was established) even before the statement was made, so there'd been a lot of thought going quite a ways beyond the point at which Tsunade was revealed to be the strongest woman, and I try to hold out on using "retcon" to explain something unless it's blatantly obvious that it absolutely has to be the case. So until further notice, I still think we can just scale up from what we've heard of Mito for Tsunade, because we've heard Tsunade's stronger than Mito.


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## BlackShimigami (Jul 25, 2014)

Guys, guys, I pretty sure Sharkisha would win a fight agents any one of them XD
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRI6-VjYyo[/YOUTUBE]


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