# Prime Rayleigh vs Kaido



## xmysticgohanx (Feb 2, 2020)

Who takes it. Rayleigh is likely > Oden


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## Brazilian guy (Feb 2, 2020)

Kaido high diff


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## Steven (Feb 2, 2020)

Ray High-diffs

Reactions: Like 3


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## CaptainCommander (Feb 2, 2020)

Oden>>>>>>>>>>>>Ray as of last chap.
Kaido defeated Oden so pretty clear Kaido wins in 1 or 2 shots.


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## Corax (Feb 3, 2020)

Ray high diff.


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## Ludi (Feb 3, 2020)

Which Kaido?

Prime Ray > Wano FB Kaido  - high Diff

Prime Ray ~ Prime Kaido I suppose


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## Gledania (Feb 3, 2020)

Ray extrem diff


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## Fel1x (Feb 3, 2020)

Kaido high-extreme


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## trance (Feb 3, 2020)

current kaido extreme diffs

fb kaido gets his ass beat


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## Canute87 (Feb 3, 2020)

Kaidou hasn't reached his prime at that point.

Rayleigh takes it.

Possiblly giving him....dare i say it...a permanent scar


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## MartyMcFly1 (Feb 3, 2020)

Prime Ray, high diff, possibly extreme but I doubt it.


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## Gledania (Feb 3, 2020)

CaptainCommander said:


> Oden>>>>>>>>>>>>Ray as of last chap.
> Kaido defeated Oden so pretty clear Kaido wins in 1 or 2 shots.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Luis209 (Feb 3, 2020)

Prime Rayleigh defeats the Kaido that fought Oden, but loses to Current Kaido. Even if it would be an extreme fight. That's my feeling.


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## Dunno (Feb 3, 2020)

Ray high diffs current Kaido. Mid diffs Teen Kaido.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2020)

Prime Ray should be >= Oden who High diff FB Kaidou. I would expect Prime Ray ether extreme diff current Kaidou or loose extreme diff to Kaidou. For the most part I consider the old legends Roger / Prime WB FM; to be around the level of current Yonko give or take.


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## Sherlōck (Feb 4, 2020)

If it’s current Kaido then Rayleigh loses extreme difficulty.

If it’s Wano war Kaido then Rayleigh wins high difficulty.


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## Imagine (Feb 4, 2020)

No version of Ray is beating Kaido.

Reactions: Like 5


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## TheWiggian (Feb 4, 2020)

Prime Ray very high diffs Kaido at his strongest


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2020)

Very funny. Prime Ray gets one shot as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## blueice12 (Feb 4, 2020)

Feel like Rayleigh lose this I'm not going to hype him like I did on this cp0 guys 
Cause one of them lost to a chain guy


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## Grinningfox (Feb 4, 2020)

Why is Rayleigh above Oden??

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pyriz (Feb 4, 2020)

Kaido, duh. I'm sure Rayleigh was pretty amazing in his prime, but Kaido is a walking disaster. I don't think Oden hurting him diminishes that.


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## Law (Feb 4, 2020)

Toss up, leaning slightly towards Kaido.

Anyone who believes the Kaido Oden nearly defeated was much weaker than current Kaido should have no problem with Ray > Oden. Old, out of shape & rusty, non prime Ray with 2 decades of inactivity stalemated and safely escaped Kizaru who later vented due to not capturing Ray. Kizaru should too be much stronger than 20 years ago Kaido if the latter is, but not as much as Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MO (Feb 4, 2020)

Imagine said:


> No version of Ray is beating Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2020)

Imagine said:


> No version of Ray is beating Kaido.


Current Kaidou? You are right.

Kaidou the one Oden fought? Idk


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## Imagine (Feb 5, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> Current Kaidou? You are right.
> 
> Kaidou the one Oden fought? Idk


I honestly don't see why. Kaido wasn't significantly weaker back than. Ray definitely isn't leaps and bounds above Oden. Maybe stronger but not by much. If Yonkou subordinates could takeout other Yonkou just like that then there would be no Yonkou hierarchy in the first place.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Feb 5, 2020)

I'd see that either way.


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## Dunno (Feb 5, 2020)

Imagine said:


> I honestly don't see why. Kaido wasn't significantly weaker back than. Ray definitely isn't leaps and bounds above Oden. Maybe stronger but not by much. If Yonkou subordinates could takeout other Yonkou just like that then there would be no Yonkou hierarchy in the first place.


What Yonkou subordinate are you talking about? Because this thread doesn't involve any Yonkou subordinates.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Imagine (Feb 5, 2020)

Dunno said:


> What Yonkou subordinate are you talking about? Because this thread doesn't involve any Yonkou subordinates.


Roger and his crew basically are that and there's nothing that puts Ray well above the others.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 5, 2020)

I disagree whole heartily. 

Whitebeard and Roger during the flashback were shown to be on a level on their own in their prime. Oden was shown to be able to tank shots, and clash with them. While Rayleigh seem to think he could take Oden, and Roger just didn't want Scopper or Rayleigh to bother getting injured. I think it can be justified that Oden and Rayleigh are a little out of the current Yonkou commanders gap. Plus there is no telling if Kaidou was at his prime or not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Imagine (Feb 5, 2020)

They can certainly fight them better than say King or Katakuri, but winning is another thing entirely.


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## Dunno (Feb 5, 2020)

Imagine said:


> Roger and his crew basically are that and there's nothing that puts Ray well above the others.


Roger was the PK, not a Yonkou. The current Yonkou aren't even close to him. Old Ray managed to hurt Kizaru in a straight up clash after not having used his sword for 20 years. Prime Ray would have been quite a lot stronger than that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## B Rabbit (Feb 5, 2020)

I am just not sold on Rayleigh can't beat that version of Kaidou.

We know Kaidou has taken many loses, and he has endured many battles. We just do not know where he is at currently.

Current Kaidou you are right. Rayleigh is not beating that.


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## Imagine (Feb 5, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Roger was the PK, not a Yonkou. The current Yonkou aren't even close to him. *Old Ray managed to hurt Kizaru in a straight up clash after not having used his sword for 20 years*. Prime Ray would have been quite a lot stronger than that.


Big difference between a skirmish and a fight to the death. He cut him not dismembered him.


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 5, 2020)

Imagine said:


> I honestly don't see why. Kaido wasn't significantly weaker back than. Ray definitely isn't leaps and bounds above Oden. Maybe stronger but not by much. If Yonkou subordinates could takeout other Yonkou just like that then there would be no Yonkou hierarchy in the first place.


Roger isn’t a Yonko


Imagine said:


> Big difference between a skirmish and a fight to the death. He cut him not dismembered him.


 any current fm 20 years past their prime wouldn’t stand a chance

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Feb 5, 2020)

> Roger - Rayleigh, you are my partner.
> OL - Rayleigh was Roger's subordinate.

Also, LOL at thinking that Roger actually thought that Oden could fight both Rayleigh + Gaban & injure them. Even Rayleigh straight up says that Roger just want to fight the samurai.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mysticreader (Feb 5, 2020)

Fb Kaido that Oden faced = Prime Rayleigh wins, high difficulty.
Current Kaido = Extreme difficulty and tossup, maybe leaning Kaido. Rayleigh is a legend in his own right but Kaido still has his title as both a YK and the WSC. I think that "places" more, even if he is the PK's FM/right hand. Something like author's intention in view of where characters lie?


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## CaptainCommander (Feb 6, 2020)

Zoro and Admiral wank thread in disguise.

Still wondering how Ray comes close to Oden.


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## KennethLT (Feb 6, 2020)

Current kaido wins in my eyes, but it would be an extremely difficult battle for him. Prime rey is no joke.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 9, 2020)

Going with Kaido extreme diff or stalemate.


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 9, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Going with Kaido extreme diff or stalemate.



This is what I lean towards as well. I also think that Oden that fought Kaidou was close to Prime Rayleigh, maybe only a little bit weaker.


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## Gledania (Feb 9, 2020)

Kaido extrem diff.

Ray would win against that 20 years ago wano version


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## Grinningfox (Feb 9, 2020)

I don’t think there’s enough shown from the WSC to justify the thought of a huge gap between FB Kaido and Current Kaido

Reactions: Like 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 9, 2020)

Grinningfox said:


> I don’t think there’s enough shown from the WSC to justify the thought of a huge gap between FB Kaido and Current Kaido


 it's crazy to me that people even think there is a gap


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## Grinningfox (Feb 9, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> it's crazy to me that people even think there is a gap


Like what’s changed ?? 
Seriously what does he have now ( that’s confirmed) that he didn’t then?

his dura isn’t stated to be different 

neither is his firepower

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 9, 2020)

Grinningfox said:


> Like what’s changed ??
> Seriously what does he have now ( that’s confirmed) that he didn’t then?
> 
> his dura isn’t stated to be different
> ...




20 years passed and he is guy who specifically is looking for challenging fights?


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## Canute87 (Feb 9, 2020)

Grinningfox said:


> Why is Rayleigh above Oden??



Experience.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Feb 9, 2020)

Grinningfox said:


> Like what’s changed ??
> Seriously what does he have now ( that’s confirmed) that he didn’t then?
> 
> his dura isn’t stated to be different
> ...





Canute87 said:


> Experience.


@Canute87 
That’s a two in one.


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## NooksBrigade (Feb 9, 2020)

Prime Kaido Vs. Prime Rayleigh
09 |Haki| 09
10 |Defence| 08
10 |Durability| 05
10 |Attack| 09
09 |Speed| 09
10 |Experience| 10
07 |Intellegence| 10

65 |*Total*| 60

Kaido Wins Extreme Diff​


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## Amol (Feb 10, 2020)

It could go either way. 
Prime Rayleigh is basically EoS Zoro who obviously gonna be a Yonkou tier character. 
Man it is one thing to argue that Kaido can win but it is entirely different kind of idiocy when you argue Kaido can one shot motherfucking Dark King.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ImpalerDragon (Feb 17, 2020)

Kaido defeate dark king easily. He is just a first mate so a marco or katakuri who is = g4 luffy and look how easy kaido got him?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2020)

Kaido is weaker than Oden who is weaker then prime Ray

now what


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## Nox (Feb 17, 2020)

Characters compared to Old WB > Characters admittedly inferiority to Old WB

Reactions: Like 2


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## Raiden34 (Feb 17, 2020)

Astro said:


> Characters compared to Old WB > Characters admittedly inferiority to Old WB


Every Yonko are compared with Old WB?


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## Nox (Feb 18, 2020)

Erkan12 said:


> Every Yonko are compared with Old WB?



In the prelude to Marineford (*c501*), Garp compares Rayleigh (and his threat level) to Old WB. Kizaru confirms this assertion by declaring preparation (much as Old WB) might be needed. However, as the battle prolongs Rayleigh admits due to age and inactivity, he no longer possess the same threat. From this we can infer Prime Rayleigh potential level. Now, compare those to statements from Emperors, Admirals and others who matched themselves to Old WB;


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## Raiden34 (Feb 18, 2020)

Astro said:


> In the prelude to Marineford (*c501*), Garp compares Rayleigh (and his threat level) to Old WB. Kizaru confirms this assertion by declaring preparation (much as Old WB) might be needed. However, as the battle prolongs Rayleigh admits due to age and inactivity, he no longer possess the same threat. From this we can infer Prime Rayleigh potential level. Now, compare those to statements from Emperors, Admirals and others who matched themselves to Old WB;


Garp doesn't compare WB to Rayleigh. He just says that the marines aren't powerful enough to take on ''two legends'' at the same time, being a legend is a wide term, it doesn't mean they are on the same level.

While for Yonko, specifically says they are on the same level as Whitebeard. He uses that ''level'' term for this comparison.

*Garp : ''Among all the countless pirates, he is considered to be on the same level as Whitebeard. He is one of the four greatest pirates in the world.''
--- Chapter 0432*

Law also states that, the other Yonko had territorial clashes with great Whitebeard.

*Trafalgar Law : ''These are the Emperors of the Sea, massively powerful figures who engaged in constant territorial clashes with the great Whitebeard.''
--- Chapter 0697*

Garp never says that Rayleigh is on the same level with Whitebeard, nor that he had any competition with Whitebeard, he just says that they are both legends, and the marines aren't powerful enough to take two legends at the same time.

Let's say the marines can take something like 15 Level threat at once.
And let's say WB is 10 level, and Rayleigh is 5 level, combine that, it makes 15. And the marines can't take them at the same time. Garp's words only shows us that the marines aren't powerful enough to take more than 1 Yonko, that's it. That definitely doesn't prove Rayleigh is on the same level with Whitebeard.

And recently, E.Oda showed us that Rayleigh + Roger pirates, couldn't defeat WB pirates for 3 days. Which Oden was part of it. Rayleigh was at Oden's level, or whoever that fought with him from the WB pirates in that 3 days long fight. Because we know that Whitebeard was dealing with Roger.

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## Nox (Feb 19, 2020)

Erkan12 said:


> *Garp doesn't compare WB to Rayleigh.* *He just says that the marines aren't powerful enough to take on ''two legends'' at the same time*, being a legend is a wide term, it doesn't mean they are on the same level.



I want you to pause and read those two statements out loud. The conversation was about confronting Rayleigh -- in *combat*. In a period they've geared to *fight* Old WB. Garp dispels the notion and states we cannot handle both at once. What is WB *canonical* legend? Strongest Pirate, Man Closest to One Piece, World Strongest Man and an Unyielding Conqueror who never abandons his comrades. Process of elimination should draw you to one glaring conclusion- strength!! Rayleigh's power at its *HEIGHT* wasn't to be trifled with -- important to note but irrelevant since he admitted he declined, in the long run. 



> While for Yonko, specifically says they are on the same level as Whitebeard. He uses that ''level'' term for this comparison.





> *Garp : ''Among all the countless pirates, he is considered to be on the same level as Whitebeard. He is one of the four greatest pirates in the world.''*
> *--- Chapter 0432*


 

Is this the part you'll mention Garp had been questioning Luffy as to whether he knew what kind of Pirate his *Redhead Friend* was. Let me put the full conversation into context. Garp -- *Your Redhead Friend, among all the countless pirates, is considered to be on the same level as Whitebeard. He's (Shanks) one of the four greatest Pirates who live in the second half of the Grandline. They (Shanks and 3 other Pirates) rule the lands there*. Why would you take a statement used to hype Shanks and state its for all 3 Yonko? Second, is this the same Shanks who on panel has acknowledged WB's superiority? What exactly is the purpose of this quote -- I was so baffled I signed up with VIZ just to confirm WTF I missed (apologies for the delayed response). 



> Law also states that, the other Yonko had territorial clashes with great Whitebeard.





> *Trafalgar Law : ''These are the Emperors of the Sea, massively powerful figures who engaged in constant territorial clashes with the great Whitebeard.''
> --- Chapter 0697*



Yet, we have seen that Emperor encounters are a rare occurrence. The actual Emperors have mentioned it THEMSELVES. Surely, its not lost to you that Emperors have Commander and Allies who represent their interest. These characters have autonomy to fight and defend on their behalf? 



> Garp never says that Rayleigh is on the same level with Whitebeard, nor that he had any competition with Whitebeard, he just says that they are both legends, and the marines aren't powerful enough to take two legends at the same time.



You want more about Legend? DCJ mentioned the powers to conquer the GL require an individual capable of rising above Emperor and Admiral. *Prime Rayleigh* has conquered the Grandline. WB has the power to achieve the feat. Adding more credence to what I stated.



> Let's say the marines can take something like 15 Level threat at once.
> And let's say WB is 10 level, and Rayleigh is 5 level, combine that, it makes 15. And the marines can't take them at the same time. Garp's words only *shows us that the marines aren't powerful enough to take more than 1 Yonko*, that's it. That definitely doesn't prove Rayleigh is on the same level with Whitebeard.



I don't even know what jumbled mess this is. Marineford (manpower and resources) was specifcally prepped to neutralize Old WB forces. Sengoku, Kizaru, Garp, Tsuru, Mihawk, Doflamingo, Hancock -- participated in that battle and did fuck all. Add that to 2 Warlord betrayals -- Kong and a multitude of other Marines who didn't even participate. Stop speaking in a matter of fact manner with made up numerical gibberish. Still haven't dispelled where Prime Rayleigh stands -- I am making an effort to make mention of Prime who'se distinct from Old Rayleigh.



> And recently, E.Oda showed us that Rayleigh + Roger pirates, couldn't defeat WB pirates for 3 days. Which Oden was part of it. Rayleigh was at Oden's level, or whoever that fought with him from the WB pirates in that 3 days long fight. Because we know that Whitebeard was dealing with Roger.



About to blow your mind. Its possible for Rayleigh - Scopper - [Insert WB Pirate] to fight and beat their opponents and exit stage (leaving fodder vs fodder) -- while Roger and Whitebeard continue duking it out. You've witnessed countless battles between SHs where the crew defeats their opponents but Luffy is left fighting. LMAO!! Wait there is more, this Roger, Rayleigh, WB aren't at the prime of their powers. How do we know you ask? Garp who'd folded ROX Pirates prior was still training and growing his CoA to go and one-shot DCJ. This occurred around the same period Roger sails for his Magnum Opus. A Roger who Garp -- both men have professed didn't cease chasing or fighting. Once again Prime Rayleigh is being compared to Old WB. There is a distinction between Prime WB vs Old WB -- Prime Ray vs Old Ray!!

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## Gledania (Feb 19, 2020)

I don't think the "same level" was stated for Shanks. Jjst that he was one of the 4 sttongest pirate


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2020)

Gledania said:


> I don't think the "same level" was stated for Shanks. Jjst that he was one of the 4 sttongest pirate


Not strongest, only most powerful.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Raiden34 (Feb 19, 2020)

Astro said:


> I want you to pause and read those two statements out loud. The conversation was about confronting Rayleigh -- in *combat*. In a period they've geared to *fight* Old WB. Garp dispels the notion and states we cannot handle both at once. What is WB *canonical* legend? Strongest Pirate, Man Closest to One Piece, World Strongest Man and an Unyielding Conqueror who never abandons his comrades. Process of elimination should draw you to one glaring conclusion- strength!! Rayleigh's power at its *HEIGHT* wasn't to be trifled with -- important to note but irrelevant since he admitted he declined, in the long run.



Again, why would the weakness of the marines that fails to counter two powerful people at once, should prove that those two people are on the same level?

It doesn't.

If WB is 10, and Rayleigh is 5, if the marines can handle a 14 only, 10 + 5 is too much for them.




Astro said:


> Is this the part you'll mention Garp had been questioning Luffy as to whether he knew what kind of Pirate his *Redhead Friend* was. Let me put the full conversation into context. Garp -- *Your Redhead Friend, among all the countless pirates, is considered to be on the same level as Whitebeard. He's (Shanks) one of the four greatest Pirates who live in the second half of the Grandline. They (Shanks and 3 other Pirates) rule the lands there*. Why would you take a statement used to hype Shanks and state its for all 3 Yonko? Second, is this the same Shanks who on panel has acknowledged WB's superiority? What exactly is the purpose of this quote -- I was so baffled I signed up with VIZ just to confirm WTF I missed (apologies for the delayed response).




It's for all 3 Yonko, not special to Shanks. He says Shanks is on the same level with WB, because he is a Yonko like the rest of the 3. That's the only reason why Garp says that. It's not like because Shanks is superior to other 2 Yonko.



Astro said:


> Yet, we have seen that Emperor encounters are a rare occurrence. The actual Emperors have mentioned it THEMSELVES. Surely, its not lost to you that Emperors have Commander and Allies who represent their interest. These characters have autonomy to fight and defend on their behalf?


You realize that's far better than Garp saying the marines aren't powerful enough to take both WB and Rayleigh right? Since this doesn't prove that Rayleigh can compete with WB, but these 3 Yonko were already competing with WB with territorial clashes.

It's another discussion that if Rayleigh could accomplish that feat or not, but these 3 Yonko already did that, and they proved that they can compete and clash with WB, while we don't know if Rayleigh could do that against WB or not.

Already proven territorial clashes and competition with WB himself for years > Rayleigh's competition with WB's crew in a 3 days long fight.



Astro said:


> I don't even know what jumbled mess this is. Marineford (manpower and resources) was specifcally prepped to neutralize Old WB forces. Sengoku, Kizaru, Garp, Tsuru, Mihawk, Doflamingo, Hancock -- participated in that battle and did fuck all. Add that to 2 Warlord betrayals -- Kong and a multitude of other Marines who didn't even participate. Stop speaking in a matter of fact manner with made up numerical gibberish. Still haven't dispelled where Prime Rayleigh stands -- I am making an effort to make mention of Prime who'se distinct from Old Rayleigh.


Garp is specifically talking about the marines, not the world government. Shichibukai is not part of the marines, and Kong is not the part of the marines anymore. Kong was a former fleet admiral, former.

Garp's statement doesn't include the Shichibukai's involment and Kong's involment. It's only for the marines.

If 1 Admiral went to deal with Rayleigh, instead of waiting in the marineford headquarters, that would give a huge advantage to the WB pirates. The only reason why they managed to cheap shot Marco and Jozu was because 3 Admirals were actively fighting, make that 2, and they couldn't do it. Akainu was going to cheap-shot WB, who was having an heart attack, Marco goes to save him and Kizaru cheap-shots him from behind, and then Jozu was going to save Marco, but Aokiji cheap-shots him from behind, either way, remove 1 Admiral, they couldn't accomplish this cheap shotting circle, either Marco or Jozu would save WB or Jozu would save Marco.

All Garp is saying that, they need all the marine forces against Whitebeard (and obviously against his men) so they couldn't even send 1 Admiral for Rayleigh, so they couldn't take both at the same time, because they hardly took down WB and his men by using cheap-shots.

That doesn't mean Rayleigh was equal to WB. That just proves that the marines aren't strong enough to take more than WB pirates.



Astro said:


> About to blow your mind. Its possible for Rayleigh - Scopper - [Insert WB Pirate] to fight and beat their opponents and exit stage (leaving fodder vs fodder) -- while Roger and Whitebeard continue duking it out. You've witnessed countless battles between SHs where the crew defeats their opponents but Luffy is left fighting. LMAO!! Wait there is more, this Roger, Rayleigh, WB aren't at the prime of their powers. How do we know you ask? Garp who'd folded ROX Pirates prior was still training and growing his CoA to go and one-shot DCJ. This occurred around the same period Roger sails for his Magnum Opus. A Roger who Garp -- both men have professed didn't cease chasing or fighting. Once again Prime Rayleigh is being compared to Old WB. There is a distinction between Prime WB vs Old WB -- Prime Ray vs Old Ray!!



It's highly impossible. We've seen at the end of the day 3 and beginning of the day 4, no one was defeated. Oden was fine, Vista, Marco and Jozu only took minor wounds, none of them was KOed or lying on the floor. So your theory that Rayleigh defeated his WB pirate opponent and didn't involve in the rest of the fighting absolutely makes no sense, because there was no indication that Rayleigh defeated his opponent nor he didn't involve in the rest of the fighting. If Rayleigh won, he would continue to help his crew mates, he is not going to let them fight alone, this is a team battle, and Rayleigh was ready to attack Oden in a 2 vs 1 with Gaban. Rayleigh had no problem with fighting in a 2 v 1, so there should be no reason for him to stop fighting and let his crew mates to fight alone. Lol.

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## Nox (Feb 19, 2020)

*EDIT - *WTF!! It just dawned on me. Throughout all of this, you have still not refuted the claim the Emperors admitting their inferiority to Old WB. Just taking me in circles talking about Rayleigh.



Erkan12 said:


> Again, why would the weakness of the marines that fails to counter two powerful people at once, should prove that those two people are on the same level?
> 
> It doesn't.
> 
> If WB is 10, and Rayleigh is 5, if the marines can handle a 14 only, 10 + 5 is too much for them.



Your insistence on continuously posting baseless numbers doesn't negate their abject meaningless and ridiculousness. You're selectively ignoring that NW characters described as Legend -- have obtained this due to their monstrous strength and accolades which justify the claim. Garp quantifies Rayleigh's (at its height aka Prime) on the level of Old WB. 



> It's for all 3 Yonko, not special to Shanks. He says Shanks is on the same level with WB, because he is a Yonko like the rest of the 3. That's the only reason why Garp says that. It's not like because Shanks is superior to other 2 Yonko.



False. Garp laments his failures at correcting Luffy -- who he states feel to the nefarious machinations of Shanks. Luffy refutes and calls him his savior. His grandfather questions whether he understands who his friend is. Compares him to Old WB. *Continues to add on *(in addition to his level)*,* he is one of the Four *Greatest* Pirates. That his influence is so resolute, he and 3 others rule the New World under their Iron Grip. This in attempt to show Luffy -- Shanks isn't some pacifist nor simpleton. Here is the conversation flowing without the disruption of the falling asleep gag. The age of riding on others cocktails is over.








> You realize that's far better than Garp saying the marines aren't powerful enough to take both WB and Rayleigh right? Since this doesn't prove that Rayleigh can compete with WB, but these 3 Yonko were already competing with WB with territorial clashes.



It doesn't. Especially since (i) It was your justification for Emperors being on the same level -- disproven when the Emperor themselves have stated their direct encounters are extremely rare.  (ii) Emperors are conglomerates with subdivisions representing their interest -- Commanders and Allies clashing for territories doesn't equate to their respective Captain's *individual* might being on parity. (iii) An independent non-allied Pirate with comparisons to the strongest active Pirate is grounds for utmost respect -- its utilized and setup two narrative tropes -- Worf Effect and The Dreaded. 



> It's another discussion that if Rayleigh could accomplish that feat or not, but these 3 Yonko already did that, and they proved that they can compete and clash with WB, while we don't know if Rayleigh could do that against WB or not.
> 
> Already proven territorial clashes and competition with WB himself for years > Rayleigh's competition with WB's crew in a 3 days long fight.



Statements from Emperors about their Encounters > Statements from Law about Emperors Encounters. This is getting repetitive and I'm stating to lose my patience. Characters have different stages in their life, growth and development. Prime Rayleigh was compared to Old WB. Prime in reference to the single greatest height achieved by full maximization of their potential. We have two Admirals this alleged claim. One who chased his crew around and can attest to where he stood. How you extrapolated that Young WB and Young Rayleigh (who participated in a 3 day skirmish) are on par is non-sequitor. 



> Garp is specifically talking about the marines, not the world government. Shichibukai is not part of the marines, and Kong is not the part of the marines anymore. Kong was a former fleet admiral, former. Garp's statement doesn't include the Shichibukai's involment and Kong's involvement. It's only for the marines.





As per Garp's statement, the Warlords sea patrol is a secondary endeavor. Their primary function is maintaining a break even in the power dynamic. The Marines were geared for war against an Emperor -- Warlords are their assets. Kong is WG Commander in Chief -- of which Marines serve as their greatest enforcement agency. If War is declared on WG interest -- his responsibilities and background equip him to serve as another asset. The purpose of those statement was to show you even with the neutered Marine force prepared for Old WB -- there was more than enough to manhandle his crew.



> If 1 Admiral went to deal with Rayleigh, instead of waiting in the marineford headquarters, that would give a huge advantage to the WB pirates. The only reason why they managed to cheap shot Marco and Jozu was because 3 Admirals were actively fighting, make that 2, and they couldn't do it. Akainu was going to cheap-shot WB, who was having an heart attack, Marco goes to save him and Kizaru cheap-shots him from behind, and then Jozu was going to save Marco, but Aokiji cheap-shots him from behind, either way, remove 1 Admiral, they couldn't accomplish this cheap shotting circle, either Marco or Jozu would save WB or Jozu would save Marco.



Both Admirals and Commanders attacked the other at their most vulnerable. Yet, somehow Commanders end up eating enormous Ls -- whilst Admirals receive superficial wounds at best. Kizaru's contributions in Marineford (i) Preemptively attack Old WB -- allowing Marco to showcase his powers (ii) Almost eliminate Luffy -- Ivankov saved him with Hell Wink (iii) Dismantle Luffy -- Ivankov gives him a roid shot (iv) Stop WB Bisento -- Akainu conveniently removed (v) Shoot WB in the chest -- Akainu conveniently removed (vi) Shoot a cuffed Marco -- a feat so banal, considering Onigumo had cuffed him with seastone, just about any attack from any competent Marine would've sufficed. (vii) Blasting Frozen Lake -- in attempt to shoot Law's submarine. Did you read Marineford at all?



> All Garp is saying that, they need all the marine forces against Whitebeard (and obviously against his men) so they couldn't even send 1 Admiral for Rayleigh, so they couldn't take both at the same time, because they hardly took down WB and his men by using cheap-shots.



None of the WBP could land a single hit on the Admirals -- including their Captain. Both sides had the luxury of advantageous surprise attacks. Commanders were so abysmal they failed to inflict anything significant. Even WB in his rage induced barrage of Sakazuki -- failed to kill him.



> That doesn't mean Rayleigh was equal to WB. That just proves that the marines aren't strong enough to take more than WB pirates.



The comparisons are made for a potentially in shape, non-hindered Rayleigh (ala Prime) on the general level as Old WB. He admits through a combination of factors he's no longer said man. Hence, the coinage of the Old Rayleigh version in battle terms. The Marines were not prepared to fight Old WB and someone assumed to be on his general level. As this would warrant preparation -- they can't just send an Admiral to rain down Justice, civilian casualties and all. 










> It's highly impossible. We've seen at the end of the day 3 and beginning of the day 4, no one was defeated. Oden was fine, Vista, Marco and Jozu only took minor wounds, none of them was KOed or lying on the floor. So your theory that Rayleigh defeated his WB pirate opponent and didn't involve in the rest of the fighting absolutely makes no sense, because there was no indication that Rayleigh defeated his opponent nor he didn't involve in the rest of the fighting. If Rayleigh won, he would continue to help his crew mates, he is not going to let them fight alone, this is a team battle, and Rayleigh was ready to attack Oden in a 2 vs 1 with Gaban. Rayleigh had no problem with fighting in a 2 v 1, so there should be no reason for him to stop fighting and let his crew mates to fight alone. Lol.



Count the scuff marks and bandaged wounds. Tell me who has none. Finally, I have not once claimed the Rayleigh here is Prime - neither have I for WB. Between this battle and Roger becoming PK, there's 4-5 years. We can keep going back and forth but nobody's opinion is changing here.

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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 20, 2020)

Astro said:


> In the prelude to Marineford (*c501*), Garp compares Rayleigh (and his threat level) to Old WB. Kizaru confirms this assertion by declaring preparation (much as Old WB) might be needed. However, as the battle prolongs Rayleigh admits due to age and inactivity, he no longer possess the same threat. From this we can infer Prime Rayleigh potential level. Now, compare those to statements from Emperors, Admirals and others who matched themselves to Old WB;


The Kaido panel is not accurate. All he says was WB did it right. Referring to how he died in a big war. Go look at viz or ask stephan paul the current viz translator or any legitimate translator. He never said WB did a Number on him which makes no sense since he was sotting on top of sky island for 1 day.

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## Nox (Feb 20, 2020)

Jujubatman12 said:


> The Kaido panel is not accurate. All he says was WB did it right. Referring to how he died in a big war. Go look at viz or ask stephan paul the current viz translator or any legitimate translator. *He never said WB did a Number on him which makes no sense since he was sotting on top of sky island for 1 day*.



If he falls onto the ground and the impact is not enough to injure let alone kill him -- praising another Emperor who accomplished the act was praiseworthy. Thats how I interpreted the bold. However, if this was a translation error I'll adjust it. It doesn't change Shanks considering him strongest Emperor - Pirate. Neither does it impede Linlin acknowledging it too. Its always a precarious condition when it comes to Strongest Man since Strongest Creature -- to some eliminates Kaido -- Pirate on the other hand, thats different.

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## Raiden34 (Feb 21, 2020)

Astro said:


> *EDIT - *WTF!! It just dawned on me. Throughout all of this, you have still not refuted the claim the Emperors admitting their inferiority to Old WB. Just taking me in circles talking about Rayleigh.
> 
> Your insistence on continuously posting baseless numbers doesn't negate their abject meaningless and ridiculousness. You're selectively ignoring that NW characters described as Legend -- have obtained this due to their monstrous strength and accolades which justify the claim. Garp quantifies Rayleigh's (at its height aka Prime) on the level of Old WB.


Being legend doesn't make him equal to special top tiers like WB.

They also called Chinjao and Ace as legends, they were not even top tiers.

Garp's point is obviously the marines can't handle WB Pirates + opponents, not that Rayleigh is on the same level with Whitebeard. Try to understand what was Garp's motive, he was just worrying about the marines. The point was that the weakness, or the limitations of the marines, not randomly stating that Rayleigh is on the same level with WB. He just said they are two legends, which is true, that doesn't make them equals.

If someone says that Roger pirates are legends, do you think every crew member of Roger pirates are on the same level? Definitely not.



Astro said:


> False. Garp laments his failures at correcting Luffy -- who he states feel to the nefarious machinations of Shanks. Luffy refutes and calls him his savior. His grandfather questions whether he understands who his friend is. Compares him to Old WB. *Continues to add on *(in addition to his level)*,* he is one of the Four *Greatest* Pirates. That his influence is so resolute, he and 3 others rule the New World under their Iron Grip. This in attempt to show Luffy -- Shanks isn't some pacifist nor simpleton. Here is the conversation flowing without the disruption of the falling asleep gag. The age of riding on others cocktails is over.


And what makes Shanks more special than other 2 Yonko?

Even Big mom's bounty is superior to Shanks's, and bounty is a very important factor when it comes to show us how important they really are; Roger's bounty and WB's bounty are examples of this, no one even come close to WB's bounty, and Roger's bounty. But Shanks's bounty is not even higher than Big mom's bounty let alone Kaido's, who has better hype as WSC.

Your claim that Garp only hyped Shanks as same level with Whitebeard but not other 2 Yonko is completely baseless. Garp definitely implied that Shanks is on the same level with Whitebeard just because he is a Yonko.

Pretty much the same thing that Law said before.



Astro said:


> It doesn't. Especially since (i) It was your justification for Emperors being on the same level -- disproven when the Emperor themselves have stated their direct encounters are extremely rare.  (ii) Emperors are conglomerates with subdivisions representing their interest -- Commanders and Allies clashing for territories doesn't equate to their respective Captain's *individual* might being on parity. (iii) An independent non-allied Pirate with comparisons to the strongest active Pirate is grounds for utmost respect -- its utilized and setup two narrative tropes -- Worf Effect and The Dreaded.


Shanks fought both Kaido and Big mom before, he stopped Kaido from him to attacking Whitebeard, and Big mom definitely knew how powerful Shanks was due to saying that she could defeat Shanks if she had the forces of Elbaf, so we know that Shanks faced with Kaido and Big mom but failed to defeat them.

And Shanks also fought with Whitebeard, and Whitebeard failed to defeat Shanks when they splitted the heavens.

If Whitebeard could simply walk and defeat Kaido and Big mom, he would, he wouldn't hide behind his division commanders, or let them do what they want in the new world. You're saying as if only WB commanders and Kaido's and Big mom's commanders fought, but not the captains themselves, which is nonsense as far as I am concerned.

In any case, Rayleigh never lead a gigantic Yonko crew, and he never rivaled Whitebeard in the new world directly, like every other Yonko did, this alone is enough to prove that they have a better portrayal against Whitebeard. While we know Rayleigh never fought Whitebeard before, he fought with WB's commanders in a 3 days fight, Rayleigh's portrayal in that 3 days fight was no different than other Yonko commanders.



Astro said:


> Both Admirals and Commanders attacked the other at their most vulnerable. Yet, somehow Commanders end up eating enormous Ls -- whilst Admirals receive superficial wounds at best. Kizaru's contributions in Marineford (i) Preemptively attack Old WB -- allowing Marco to showcase his powers (ii) Almost eliminate Luffy -- Ivankov saved him with Hell Wink (iii) Dismantle Luffy -- Ivankov gives him a roid shot (iv) Stop WB Bisento -- Akainu conveniently removed (v) Shoot WB in the chest -- Akainu conveniently removed (vi) Shoot a cuffed Marco -- a feat so banal, considering Onigumo had cuffed him with seastone, just about any attack from any competent Marine would've sufficed. (vii) Blasting Frozen Lake -- in attempt to shoot Law's submarine. Did you read Marineford at all?


Wrong. Jozu's goal was to save WB from Aokiji, stopping Aokiji's attack, so WB could save Ace by moving forward, Jozu's goal was not cheap-shotting Aokiji when Aokiji was distracted. While Aokiji wasn't trying to save anyone, he just attacked Jozu, when Jozu was completely distracted, similar to when Katakuri got mad against G4 Luffy, he loses his CoO control and gets vulnerable, Jozu was emotional so he got distracted a lot, only then Aokiji wins that fight. It was not the same condition at all.

As for Marco, he never attacked or waited for a cheap-shot, he attacked Aokiji, because just like Jozu, he was trying to save someone. He saved Luffy from Aokiji, that was Marco's goal. If WB and Luffy never involved, they wouldn't even attack them, because they weren't desperately searching for a cheap-shot moment to win.

Marco also never attacked Kizaru or Akainu like that, he attacked them from the front.

While Kizaru and Aokiji waits Marco and Jozu to get distracted and win by using that advantage, not even remotely close, Kizaru even uses a help from a vice-admiral.



Astro said:


> None of the WBP could land a single hit on the Admirals -- including their Captain. Both sides had the luxury of advantageous surprise attacks. Commanders were so abysmal they failed to inflict anything significant. Even WB in his rage induced barrage of Sakazuki -- failed to kill him.



Jozu's goal was to save WB and stop Aokiji's attack, he did and he still bled Aokiji's mouth internally as an extra.

Marco send Kizaru flying hundreds of meters even when Kizaru blocked Marco's attack with his arm. This is a feat that Rayleigh never did, all he did was attacking when Kizaru was looking at somewhere else and cut his cheek a little bit, and then he got tired against Kizaru that's all. While Marco never needed that, he directly overpowered Kizaru.



Astro said:


> Count the scuff marks and bandaged wounds. Tell me who has none. Finally, I have not once claimed the Rayleigh here is Prime - neither have I for WB. Between this battle and Roger becoming PK, there's 4-5 years. We can keep going back and forth but nobody's opinion is changing here


First of all, we don't see Rayleigh from the front, so it's baseless to claim that he didn't get any wound.

Secondly, that fight happened in the 4th year of Oden's voyage. Only 1 year later after that fight, Roger becomes the PK. So there are no 4-5 years.

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## Gledania (Feb 21, 2020)

Erkan12 said:


> While we know Rayleigh never fought Whitebeard before, he fought with WB's commanders in a 3 days fight, Rayleigh's portrayal in that 3 days fight was no different than other Yonko commanders.



That fight wasn't serious just sayin.
Neither group was severely wounded and obviously they didn't went all out. They were trying to steal each others loot , not kill each others , and as far I remember the Viz Translation never stated they could not surpass each others nor that they fought equally , just that the fight was 3 day long. (and neither ray nor scooper seemed wounded by the fight)

Oh and where was it stated ray never fought White beard that day ???
Oden was here too , and dude is knowfor being the only man to wound kaido.



Erkan12 said:


> Marco send Kizaru flying hundreds of meters even when Kizaru blocked Marco's attack with his arm. This is a feat that Rayleigh never did, all he did was attacking when Kizaru was looking at somewhere else and cut his cheek a little bit, and then he got tired against Kizaru that's all. While Marco never needed that, he directly overpowered Kizaru.



Old ray made it clear he didn't use a sword in years so him being a bit exhausted from the fight make sens. And even after the mugiwara were dispatched Kizaru didn't try to capture ray just while saying pirates sins are not forgivable. He knew figthing Ray was dangerous , otherwise he wouldn't let him leave, he saw what he was capable of. Old ray feat are amazing , especially compared to Old Whitebeard who got literally toyed by kizaru even while attacking him from behind (and ray is even older than white beard).


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## Raiden34 (Feb 21, 2020)

Gledania said:


> That fight wasn't serious just sayin.
> Neither group was severely wounded and obviously they didn't went all out. They were trying to steal each others loot , not kill each others , and as far I remember the Viz Translation never stated they could not surpass each others nor that they fought equally , just that the fight was 3 day long. (and neither ray nor scooper seemed wounded by the fight)
> 
> Oh and where was it stated ray never fought White beard that day ???
> ...


It was a ''pitched battle'',


*Spoiler*: __ 









For what reason they should've fought? They are basically fighting to see who is stronger, and they see that they were equals in the end.

Roger fought Whitebeard, why would Rayleigh fought with Whitebeard? Lol.

They showed Rayleigh, and he was still dealing with WB's commanders.

MF Whitebeard was weakened a lot, and he was stabbed, he was basically dying, WB needed to be saved by Marco and Jozu, while Rayleigh had no wound or any illness like WB had. Kizaru still overpowered Rayleigh in the next chapter.

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## Gledania (Feb 22, 2020)

Erkan12 said:


> It was a ''pitched battle'



Don't know what it means tbh.


Erkan12 said:


> For what reason they should've fought? They are basically fighting to see who is stronger, and they see that they were equals in the end



They were fighting to steal each others goods as stated by ray. And in the end they shared goods inteads of stealing
Hell fights were interupted times to times. No one died and no major wound was seen among each characters, in MF multiple characters died and no ceasing happened.(And the fight dured half a day) MF was dedtroyed , this island is intact.
Neither Scooper nor ray seemed wounded. And with oden being there ray had a good opponent.
This fight was more friendly than anything, I wouldn't use it to prove power levels.


Erkan12 said:


> Kizaru still overpowered Rayleigh in the next chapter.



He didn't over power him,  he made him huff a bit witch is expected when you know he didn't use a sword in a year (inactivity effect endurance) and characters have been seen huffing for way lesd.
For the rest he was stalling him equally and at no point kizaru managed to injure him.
Moreover,  Kizaru didn't try to capture him afterwards. If he realised the gap between him and old ray is huge he would gave tried to capture him especially with back up being with him. And this is old ray , prime ray is way stronger than that and putting him on the same tier with weakier version of WB commanders in prime means his old version should be a joke to  kizaru witch he clearly wasn't.

So again , this fight doesn't mean much.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 22, 2020)

Gledania said:


> Don't know what it means tbh.
> 
> 
> They were fighting to steal each others goods as stated by ray. And in the end they shared goods inteads of stealing
> ...


It's a serious battle, that’s what it means lol.

*Spoiler*: _Pitched battle_ 



''a battle in which the time and place are determined beforehand, rather than a casual or chance skirmish.''

''a violent confrontation involving large numbers of people''





Two pirate crews are facing with each other, they were rivals before that and Roger defeated Xebec, WB's former captain before. Roger even says before the fight this could be the last time to see each other. It's as serious as it should be. At least more serious than Roger vs. Garp (allies against Xebec), unless they say the Roger vs. Garp fight lasted more than 3 days. The narrative specifically says ''clash of the great pirates of the time'' . At the end after realizing they can't beat each other they stop. It's a different version of Ace vs. Jinbe. They too become friends at the end of 5 days long fight, that doesn't mean we can’t use their fight to judge power levels. You're using that fight to say Roger = Whitebeard. But when it comes to their  crews you don't say Roger's crew = WB's crew. Lol.

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## God Movement (Feb 25, 2020)

Pretty simple.

Rayleigh > Oden > Kaido.

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## Captain Altintop (Aug 28, 2020)

Good I found this thread. I still keep with my scaling as usual:

Probably a week long fight, Rayleigh will come out victorious but rather unable to fight after.

Prime Rayleigh ~ Shanks ~ Akainu
> *extreme *diff.
Kaido ~ Kizaru ~ Aokiji


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## GreenBull956 (Aug 28, 2020)

i have prime Rayleigh slightly below Mihawk . and going by current power ranking ..... Kaido >= Mihawk , so Kaido wins but he'll be near death by the end 

the Scabbards showed that current Rayleigh is totally capable of piercing Base Kaido , let alone Prime . Prime Rayleigh could even match Hybrid Kaido prob

i think the ones from Old Gen who could win against Kaido ( aside from obvious ones - Roger/WB ) are Prime Garp and maybe Prime Kong


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2020)

By feats it can go ether way with Old Raleigh .

Speed wise - he kept up with Kizaru as an Old-man, and Kizaru kept up with WB. I really doubt that Kaidou is going to be able to Blitz WB and Kizaru (who is the most speed focused of the admirals); if so there would certainly be no balance in power. And ultimately feat wise keeping up with Kizaru whole handicapped is better then anything Kaidou has done.

Striking Strength - Base-Luffy blocked BM in Base with incomplete emission Haki. Raleigh as a master of emission even as an old man should certainly be able to block Kaidou attack since Kaidou clashed evenly with BM.

Damaging each other - Both should be able to damage eachother but in fairness Kaidou has not been shown able to penetrate Advanced Haki barriers while he was pierced by Ryou which is weaker then Emission Haki, especially since Old Raleigh is undoubtably a better swordsman and has a better sword them the scabbers.

Im sure Kaidou has more to show like hybrid, but Raleigh is accomplishing this when weakened by age and likely has more to show as well. I favor Prime Ray taking this with an unknown amount of difficulty

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## NooksBrigade (Aug 28, 2020)

*Feats: *

Old & retired Rayleigh matched base Kizaru in a skirmish

Kaido survived a named attack from Oden

Kaido 1-shot a distracted Oden

*Power Ups:*

Prime Rayleigh > Old Rayleigh
Hybrid Kaido > Base Kaido
Awakened Kizaru > Base Kizaru

*Conclusion*:

*In term of tiers: *

*S Tier*: Hybrid Kaido, Prime Rayleigh

*A Tier*: Base Kaido, Awakened Kizaru

*B Tier*: Oden, Base Kizaru, Old Rayleigh

*-Each lower tier results in a drop in difficulty compared to the tier above-*


So, Hybrid Kaido can mid-diff base Kizaru, Oden, and Old Rayleigh; without needing a distraction. However, Base Kaido would need high-diff for old Rayleigh.


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## Redline (Aug 28, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Who takes it. Rayleigh is likely > Oden


Lol.. it's likely the other way around sorry , but anyhow I think prime Rey might give him a fair fight and possibly winning


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## Redline (Aug 28, 2020)

NooksBrigade said:


> *Feats: *
> 
> Old & retired Rayleigh matched base Kizaru in a skirmish
> 
> ...


So for you prime old is on par with old Reylight? Sure...
Too bad that is not what we saw!
All that oda told us is that Kaido was this undefeated monster who noone can beat in a one Vs one, then Oden appears and fuck him upbotyom like the real tier let at goes like this
prime Oden> prime Reylight> kaido


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 28, 2020)

Redline said:


> Lol.. it's likely the other way around sorry , but anyhow I think prime Rey might give him a fair fight and possibly winning


 Prime Ray > Old Wb = Oden > Kaido


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## Vengeance (Aug 30, 2020)

Prime Rayleigh is on par with Shanks imo and thus gets beaten by Kaido with very high - extreme difficulty.


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## Canute87 (Aug 30, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Who takes it. Rayleigh is likely > Oden



No way to know that.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 31, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> No way to know that.


 just realized this is my thread lmfao


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## OniBaku (Sep 8, 2020)

Prime Rayleigh cut this empty head off.


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## Ren. (Sep 19, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Who takes it. Rayleigh is likely > Oden


Kaido low high dif


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## fenaker (Sep 19, 2020)

ray extreme diffs kaido


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