# Kisame~Killer Bee~Gai what are their levels



## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2014)

I tend to see Kisame Killer Bee and Gai as being on the same tier and being close in strength ,

If you think about it both are great counters for each other and all 3 have had similar portrayals in the manga ,

Kisame is a bad matchup for Bee because of his ability to absorb chakra and Bee mostly relies on Hachibi for most of his attacks 

Gai is a bad matchup for Kisame due to being a taijutsu master a great counter for Kisame's chakra absorption

Killer Bee is a bad matchup for Gai because he dominates Gai in his best area with Hachbibi to boot 


I think they displayed this in the manga with Gai defeating Kisame, and Kisame defeating Killer Bee


I think based upon feats and Portryal all 3 are close in power and sit comfortably in the Low Kage tier just below the Sannin, yet Gai , Kisame,have powers where they can even surpass the Sannin under certain conditions , Kisame if he absorbs enough chakra, Gai if he reaches 8th Gates ,


Whats your opinion on these 3 character's power level in the manga and their relation to each other


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## Mercurial (Jan 7, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I tend to see Kisame Killer Bee and Gai as being on the same tier and being close in strength ,
> 
> If you think about it both are great counters for each other and all 3 have had similar portrayals in the manga ,
> 
> ...



Not at all, not in this manga, Gai's taijutsu feats are even better than Bee's, far better actually, a worn out base Gai could intercept a fight between KCM Naruto and Obito, and handle Obito's Kamui with only taijutsu skill and reflexes, when KCM Naruto was being stomped. Gated Gai together with Kakashi has blitzed and fought for a relatively long time opponents (the Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2) who were making Hachibi their bitch.

Kisame, Gai and Killer Bee are all stronger than any of the Sannin on a general level. Please stop with this. Gated Gai would blitz and destroy their ass, Kisame would Daikodan or drow it, and Bee would Bijuu Dama vaporize it.  Especially Gai, portrayed as Kakashi's rival, (Kakashi, a man praised all over the world and even by Madara), and one able to do astonishing feats in the War Arc against top notch opponents who would fodder the Sannin like ants.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 7, 2014)

Killer Bee is on a different tier then Kisame and Gai. The only reason he lost to Kisame is because Kishi made him into a crazed rapping moron who made poor decisions in that fight. Which is very interesting because when he fought Sasuke he pretty much raped taka a few times over.

Bee lost because he only used his most powerful chakra attack's which Kisame took advantage of. And again if you look at his fight with taka he was alot more careful and calculating.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Not at all, not in this manga, Gai's taijutsu feats are even better than Bee's, far better actually, a worn out base Gai could intercept a fight between KCM Naruto and Obito, and handle Obito's Kamui with only taijutsu skill and reflexes, when KCM Naruto was being stomped. Gated Gai together with Kakashi has blitzed and fought for a relatively long time opponents (the Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2) who were making Hachibi their bitch.
> 
> Kisame, Gai and Killer Bee are all stronger than any of the Sannin on a general level. Please stop with this. Gated Gai would blitz and destroy their ass, Kisame would Daikodan or drow it, and Bee would Bijuu Dama vaporize it.  Especially Gai, portrayed as Kakashi's rival, (Kakashi, a man praised all over the world and even by Madara), and one able to do astonishing feats in the War Arc against top notch opponents who would fodder the Sannin like ants.




Killer Bee is as vast as Gai and stronger than him , he was keeping up with Raikage V2 and overpowered him in base, its just that Hachibi is his strongest form so it would make sense to fight that way, thats why I said on top of Taijtus he also has access to Hachibi that would give Gai some trouble , at the end of the day only Naruto and Kakashi because of Kamui did any real damage to Obito

Sannin still have better feats and hype to this day

Jiraiya already defeated Kisame in his base form, and Kisame admitted than Jiraiya was superior to him self shit all of the Sannin,

Gai was told to stay out of the battle with Pain while Jiraiya went to his home town by himself to take him on and was indicated to be able to win the bout with more knowledge , 

Jiraiya was the favorite to be 5th Hokage while Gai's name hasn't been brought up not once , even when Tsunade went Comatose 

Killer Bee has more of an argument , but Jiraiya has much better portryal and treatment from the author, Jiraiya did much better against Rinnegan and I don't see what Bee could do against Frog Song 


Orochimaru goes without speaking 

in pt 1 he had access to Edo Tensei and defeated 2 Kages in one day without much effort , Hiruzen stated only Minatop could've defeated him , and now in the current arc he has sage mode WZ and has access to 3 Edo Hokage , these 3 are a fly to him at the current moment 

I agree they could probably defeat Tsunade in combat but her support feats throughout pt2 and the war make her the overall more valuable shinobi in combat 

Kakashi is stronger than all 3 of them , Gai isn't kakashi rival its Obito always has been they have the same connection as Sasuke/Naruto, Madara/Hashirama, Danzo/Hiruzen they are the Yin and the Yang 

Gai is to Kakashi what Kiba is to Naruto , Naruto and Kakashi push Gai and Kiba to be better shinobi and they compare themselves to them to push themselves ,


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Killer Bee is on a different tier then Kisame and Gai. The only reason he lost to Kisame is because Kishi made him into a crazed rapping moron who made poor decisions in that fight. Which is very interesting because when he fought Sasuke he pretty much raped taka a few times over.
> 
> Bee lost because he only used his most powerful chakra attack's which Kisame took advantage of. And again if you look at his fight with taka he was alot more careful and calculating.



Your going to compare taka to Kisame , he's the much more experienced dangerous fighter , Sasuke had no Susanoo and couldn't utilize any MS techs until the end of the battle plus he was still injured from the itachi fight, the rest of Taka haven't really shown much aptitude in battle besides just being meat shields and healers for Sasuke, basically Susanoo and EMS took their place


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## ARGUS (Jan 7, 2014)

I consider killer bee a top tier due to the fact that he has hachibi under control and he has Samehada 
Guy would be mid kage level and so is kisame 
Guy > Kisame 
Killer Bee > Guy 
Kisame > Killer Bee (without Samehada) 
Killer Bee (with Samehada) > Kisame


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## Nikushimi (Jan 7, 2014)

8th Gate Gai (hypothetically) > Bijuu Mode Killer B > V2 Killer B > 7th Gate Gai > V1 Killer B > Kisame > 6th Gate Gai > Killer B (base) > Shouten Kisame > Gai (base)

Kisame's power fluctuates based on the chakra he steals; because Killer B has a lot of chakra and because it's so easy to steal, Kisame can move up the ladder and defeat V2 Killer B.

I'm unsure about Kisame vs. Bijuu Mode Killer B; I think it could go either way, depending on how the fight plays out. I might lean toward Kisame.

The tricky thing here is the fact that Kisame's power is inconstant/variable. But, generally-speaking:

8th Gate Hypothetical Gai > Killer B > Current Gai > Kisame

So, right now, for all intents and purposes:

B > Gai > Kisame


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 7, 2014)

Kisame happens to be a terrible match-up for Killer B, while the former doesn't go very well with Gai. 

Overall?
Kisame > Killer B > Gai

Kisame is just... more versatile than any of these combatants.


Depending on the amount of power Shimon grants, I guess things could be different...


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2014)

I disagree OP. 

Kisame and Gai are mid-kage tier (Tsunade, Hanzo, Ei level). 

Killer Bee, though Kisame counters him well- he is essentially the perfect specimen to combat Jinchuriki. There aren't many ninja with his attributes (Mass Durability, Chakra Sapping+Regeneration). 

With that being said, Killer Bee is high-kage tier, having acquired the Samehada, which is essentially half of Kisame's power as he would not be able to heal, acquire super reserves, breathe underwater or defend himself from Ninjutsu. With Bijuudama capacity, Bijuu Mode, Whirlwind, 8-sword style, Raiton weaponry, ink clones and spit, partial-transformations in base and incredible durability/speed/strength in base alone he would defeat a lot more ninja than the other two would. He is true a model of complete versatility and overwhelming power. 

A final note being had he entered bijuu mode and shot TBBs at Kisame, the battle would have ended there immediately. Of course, the author had to put a liability in it to ensure Kisame wasn't blown away (that scrub with the Raccoon). The mere fact he didn't even attempt seven sword dance against Kisame is baffling, the author clearly had the intention of showcasing Kisame's full power. 

Bee is underrated in my observation both in manga portrayal and in the dome.


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## Bonly (Jan 7, 2014)

Gai and Kisame are either at the top of the mid Kage level or low High Kage level while B is sitting comfortably on the High Kage tier.


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## Jagger (Jan 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm unsure about Kisame vs. Bijuu Mode Killer B; I think it could go either way, depending on how the fight plays out. I might lean toward Kisame.


Yup. It's hard for me to determine the outcome of the fight.

On one hand, Killer Bee definitely has the mass and firepower advantage while Kisame's techniques might end up hurting KB enough to knock him down.

Bee in his Bijuu Mode has shitty durability, that's true. Sasuke and A proved us that when they easily cut through his skin, but then again, they used Raiton-based techniques while Kisame does not.

Most of his Suiton jutsu can be countered by Bee's whirlwind as the water will just be pushed away. However, Bijuudama may or not cause Kisame a lot of damage as Sasuke and his team survived the impact of a giant explosion despite they were in the way.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 7, 2014)

I'd say Gai is low kage with 7th gate. Probably the only reason why he can't make it to mid tier is because he lacks versatility and he has a time limit.

Kirabi is solid mid kage, borderline high kage, but probably @ the bottom of it.

Kisame is somewhere in between, completely dependant on the circumstances and the chakra he steals. So he might be as strong as Kirabi or weaker than 6 gated gai depending on the situation.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2014)

I disagree OP. 



> Kisame and Gai are mid-kage tier (Tsunade, Hanzo, Ei level).



Hanzo in his prime maybe with his hype but in his Edo - Tensei form no he was soundly defeated by Mifune who is low kage tier himself at most , unfortunately Hazno that we saw fight in the manga is probably closer to Elite Jounin level if you check out my tier list he cant beat anyone on the tier with Bee, Gai, Kisame, Konan , Mei

Ei to me is also low kage level, although he has tremendous portrayal , based on the role he holds within the manga he should be on par with the Sannin but he often comes up small when it matters, to me he's had the weakest showing of the 5 Kage, one one of the most disappointing showings of all the characters in the manga, he's just a one trick pony without much versatility very similar to Gai, he was weaker than Sasuke at stage 3 susanoo

Tsunade I agree she represents the mid kage tier 

Gai and Kisame would lose to many placed on my mid kage tier which consists of sick itachi , onoki, Jiraiya , MS Sasuke , Sakura and Tsunade would lose but their hype as medical ninja and its importance in the manga is why I would give them priority 




> Killer Bee, though Kisame counters him well- he is essentially the perfect specimen to combat Jinchuriki. There aren't many ninja with his attributes (Mass Durability, Chakra Sapping+Regeneration).



True, thats why I said they are on the same tier and one really isn't stronger than the other one its just that kisame is a bad matchup 



> With that being said, Killer Bee is high-kage tier, having acquired the Samehada, which is essentially half of Kisame's power as he would not be able to heal, acquire super reserves, breathe underwater or defend himself from Ninjutsu. With Bijuudama capacity, Bijuu Mode, Whirlwind, 8-sword style, Raiton weaponry, ink clones and spit, partial-transformations in base and incredible durability/speed/strength in base alone he would defeat a lot more ninja than the other two would. He is true a model of complete versatility and overwhelming power.



Heres the problem with that he hasn't been shown using Samehada nearly as effectively as Kisame , its similar to Sasuke having Hebi powers , or if Sasuke had the MS and didn't train , so yes he could have that power but he hasn't shown that aptitude in battle , Hachibi while impressive I don't think it warrants him to be stronger than Onoki, Gaara, Mu, 2nd Mizukage , Jiraiya as they have very haxed abilities as well, Jinton is one of the most hyped blood limits capable of taking out 25 susanoo clones, shit Onoki stopped two meteors, Gaara has one of the most hazed abilities being able to control the sand in your bloodstream , Trollkage was giving Gaara and Onoki plus an entire division fits despite trying to lose the fight on purpose , I think both Gaara and Onoki would defeat Bee individually let alone both of them, Jiraiya has Sage Mode which is one of the most revered and respected abilities in the entire manga , its like being a super saiyan in dragon ball z , and those are just mid Kage shinobi 


High Kage is reserved of the elite of the elite the true hall of fame of shonobi in this verse , people like Hashirama, Minato, Madara, Kabuto, Bijuu Mode Naruto,Sasuke, Obito Killer Bee isn't even close to those characters as we've seen once the battle got serious he was reduced to the sidelines like Gai.

the only characters above the Kage level are Juubito and Rikudo Sennin 




> A final note being had he entered bijuu mode and shot TBBs at Kisame, the battle would have ended there immediately. Of course, the author had to put a liability in it to ensure Kisame wasn't blown away (that scrub with the Raccoon). The mere fact he didn't even attempt seven sword dance against Kisame is baffling, the author clearly had the intention of showcasing Kisame's full power.



I'm not sure how TBB would affect Kisame could he absorb it or couldn't he but keep in mind Kisame fought another jin and probably others who also had access to bijuudama and still won, true you could agree he was limited , I think kishi was just trying to show us Kisame is a bad matchup for him overall




> Bee is underrated in my observation both in manga portrayal and in the dome.



I think his portrayal is what makes him overrated in the dome


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 7, 2014)

*Kisame:* He's probably in the upper echelon of the Mid-Kage tier.

*Gai:* Probably the top of the Mid-Kages.

*Kīrābī:* He's in the High Kage Tier due to his firepower with his full Hachibi mode.


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## Psp123789 (Jan 7, 2014)

Kisame and Gai are pretty much around the same lvl( mid kage). Bee is a high kage or maybe even higher.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 7, 2014)

Killer B is a tier above Kisame & Gai. The Kisame fight was full of PIS, granted even without PIS Kisame is still a bad matchup regardless so B would have to get serious in dealing with him. All this being said he's in the High-Kage tier with the likes of Onoki, Raikagenaut, Kakashi, Mu etc.. 

Kisame & Gai would be the very top of next tier down (Mid-Kage tier) which holds people like Tsuande, Gaara, Mei & upper Akatsuki members like Deidara or Kakuzu etc..

So it's essentially Killer B >> Gai > Kisame (due to bad matchup)


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## Joakim3 (Jan 7, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Kisame and Gai are pretty much around the same lvl( mid kage). Bee is a high kage or maybe even higher.



The next step up from High Kage tier would be the _Transdecents_ which contains the likes of the _Pein Rikudo_, SM Kabuto, Tobirama, Minato & Itachi.... all of whom would steam roll Killer B


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 7, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> So it's essentially Killer B >> Gai > Kisame (due to bad matchup)



This man got it. Killer bee would best either of them in a straight up battle and gai makes kisame style null.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 7, 2014)

Itachi, Minato, and Kabuto (Edo Tensei restricted) vs. Killer B are pretty debatable match-ups, IMO.

I would favor Itachi and Minato over B, but I think it's close enough that a case for B winning could be made under the right circumstances and I think B's main weakness against those two is purely his intelligence.

Without Edo Tensei, I don't really see Kabuto having a shot at beating Killer B, unless it's again due to B's intelligence (or lack thereof) and his carefree nature.

I don't think Tobirama has the feats to make a good argument for him beating Killer B, either. Hype-wise, he's definitely at the right level, though.


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## Ersa (Jan 7, 2014)

Sick Itachi and Killer B is debatable but Sick Itachi wins more times then not I feel, Minato and Edo Itachi wipe the floor with B. Particularly Edo Itachi, he can camp Susanoo forcing B into BM then it's Roy Mustang vs. Envy, only this time it's Mustang with regenerating chakra 

Kisame is very strong compared to normal Kages, I'd peg him slightly below Onoki. With 7 Gates Gai is more or less at the same level as Kisame (mid-high Kage), the time limit hurts him considerably and he was a terrible match up for Kisame who didn't had Samehada and was weakened to begin with, with 8 Gates he'll be up there with monsters like Nagato and EMS Madara in my opinion. Killer B is the strongest of the 3, he's on par with people like MS Sasuke, Sick Itachi and Jiraiya.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

They're all High Kage (and would beat any of the Gokage imo.)

Hype-wise, you have your "bijū without a tail," perfect jinchūriki, and master of the Celestial Gates.

Feat wise, the Giant Shark Missile, Afternoon Tiger, and bijūdama are stupidly powerful offensive jutsu.

Kisame and Bee are also clone users.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2014)

since kishi is telling s story and telling a story supersedes  the tekken street fighter mentality most battledores have 

I get it Killer Bee has all these awesome abilities, and awesome techniques but portrayal is whats most important that persons role within the story will dictate his showcasing and his hype 


Hashirama is the pinnacle a human shonobi can reach he is the standard of strength for all shinobi in this manga , Killer Bee just doesn't serve that role 

High Kage Tier is the level you reach before you go beyond human limitations the only characters that have gone beyond are Rikudo Sennin, and Juubito

High Kage Tier is for the people that have directly or indirectly shaped the shinobi world 


Hashirama, Minato, Madara, Sasuke, Naruto, Kabuto, Obito,Orochimaru



Hiruzen, Danzo, Nagato, Tobirama are debatable but Killer Bee in my opinion is not he's a standard Kage level powerful shinobi ,


Itachi is one as well but his illness hindered him from achieving that potential , although he did eventually become a legend as an Edo Tensei

Jiraiya was pretty much the same even by his own admission he didn't become a legend like Minato like Naruto is becoming 

Gaara and Onoki are building their legend in the war as well


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## Jad (Jan 7, 2014)

It's quite easy to say "Gai is High Kage Level, Gai is Low kage level" then just list off the names of the people that you believe fit that tier and expect people to come around and say "You know what Jerry, you make a good point".

Do me a favour, search as many Gai battledome threads as you can on this forum. Look at the matches he has had, look at the arguments that have been had, the points that have been had. His been matched up with Onoki, his been matched up with Deidara, his been matched-up with Deidara and Sasori (blood lusted), his been matched up with Ei, Tsunade, Jiraiya. Most of those have had convincingly arguments that even lean towards Gai winning those match-ups. Then his been matched-up with Mei who he decisively wins against as I've witnessed, and cannon his beaten Kisame who was the last Akatsuki member and given the most fights in the manga among Akatsuki members (besides obviously Kabuto, Tobi and Itachi).

Then you have Gai who came from the war, intercepted Jinchuuriki's, Obito, Gedomazou, then Madara. Even getting the *praise of the Hachibi twice*. Even Itachi warned Akatsuki about him twice, and is a rival to Kakashi. Is an accomplished Taijutsu and weapons user, has both dominating close, short and long range techniques. Doesn't get tired after 1-Hirudora; considering in a beaten and exhausted state he was able to fire it off against Madara and still not collapse. So you know he can fire a couple of those; which is a ceremony for disaster for his opponent. He can also fire them off virtually through the clap of his hands. It's also a very good crowd control technique, literally busting through most (not all) of any defense or attack in the manga. Gai is pretty versatile, if you think about it.

I acknowledge Killer Bee is stronger then Gai, he has the Hachibi while I believe Gai is stronger then Kisame (not because of him not being able to suck chakra). Kisame's only use when it came to sucking Chakra was related to being able to continue fighting longer then his opponent (as he stated in the manga) and fire off over scaled ninjutsu techniques. Guess what? Not only did Kisame use over scaled ninjutsu techniques against Gai. Gai was already fighting on Kisame's turf; Kisame (this is the funny part) even said he had the advantage. Quite contradictory to what you guys have been saying. Gai is not going to try and outlast his opponent, he has decisively lethal wining techniques. Ok, I get it, if he could suck chakara, Gai's Hirudora would be gone. But your ONLY looking at how poor disadvantaged Kisame was (sarcastic), how about take a look at what Gai's situation is.

Anyways, look at my Tier list, I don't have Kisame more then 2 spots away from Gai (although some spots need re-arranging). In fact look where I put Killer Bee. Hachibi is just that powerful.

Yuck I have Prime Hiruzen in my list (taking him out), I was a fool.​


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## Turrin (Jan 7, 2014)

@Eliyua23

Kisame and Killer B are on the same general "level" imo, but i'm not sure about Gai. I don't think Gai has the feats to support him being on par w/ those 2; by feats Gai is more around Kakashi's level who I consider inferior to both of these beasts currently. However I suppose you could make an argument based on 8th Gate hype, though; so maybe if that's what your going for I can understand. 

However what I strongly disagree w/ is Kisame and Killer B being "Low Kage level" or bellow the Sannin. Both B and Kisame are superior to the Sannin  sans Current Orochimaru; though admittedly J-man is a poor match up for Kisame so he might be able to defeat him. Killer B being stronger is obvious; he's a perfect Jin w/ a myriad of impressive feats. Kisame being superior is less obvious, but that is because for some reason people don't count the fact that Kisame by the end of his life had powered up significantly by absorbing a shit ton of the Hachibi's chakra and might as well been the Hachibi Jinchuuriki himself; it's not like that chakra went away, so essentially Kisame cleared your condition of having enough chakra to be above at least 2 of the Sannin by the end of his life.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 8, 2014)

> Kisame and Killer B are on the same general "level" imo, but i'm not sure about Gai. I don't think Gai has the feats to support him being on par w/ those 2; by feats Gai is more around Kakashi's level who I consider inferior to both of these beasts currently. However I suppose you could make an argument based on 8th Gate hype, though; so maybe if that's what your going for I can understand.



Gai defeated Kisame who defeated Killer Bee, Gai has had similar portrayal though out the war they were both significant in the jinchurki and the Obito fight , they served a similar role backing up Naruto and Kakashi respectively , I disagree with bee and kisame being stronger than Kakashi and Gai being his equal, Kakashi did better against Nagato, did better against Obito, Kakashi like kishimoto said has been highlighted in this war as being one of its major players , Bee and Gai although powerful don't have that distinction and even in pt 1 Itachi warned kisame that kakashi could injure him  



> However what I strongly disagree w/ is Kisame and Killer B being "Low Kage level" or bellow the Sannin. Both B and Kisame are superior to the Sannin  sans Current Orochimaru; though admittedly J-man is a poor match up for Kisame so he might be able to defeat him. Killer B being stronger is obvious; he's a perfect Jin w/ a myriad of impressive feats. Kisame being superior is less obvious, but that is because for some reason people don't count the fact that Kisame by the end of his life had powered up significantly by absorbing a shit ton of the Hachibi's chakra and might as well been the Hachibi Jinchuuriki himself; it's not like that chakra went away, so essentially Kisame cleared your condition of having enough chakra to be above at least 2 of the Sannin by the end of his life.



If you look at my tier list Mid Kage's are Onoki, Trollkage, Gaara(current), Muu who I think would defeat both Bee and Kisame , Tsunade is primarily rated as a support shinobi in her support skills she is more powerful than Kisame or Bee, she was able to save konoha and save the Gokage , and even know with Sakura are able to save most of the shinobi alliance , in combat yeah I would give bee and Kisame the edge.

Jiraiya basically has the Naruto equivalent of super saiyan in the manga in sage mode , its the most heralded technique , Itachi even in Edo form was weary of sage mode users same as he was with Jiraiya when he was alive as well was Kisame , as for Bee, Jiraiya outperformed him against Rinnegan their first time out , even Sage Mode was the key to defeating Obito which meant Jiraiya's power would still be useful against one of the major villains in the manga.

another problem with Kisame is we saw what happened when preta tried to absorb Sage Mode in turned him into stone I would imagine the same thing happening with kisame vs Jiraiya , as for Killer Bee I don't think he has a way around frog song


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 8, 2014)

Show me that Gai and Kisame can hold their own against Edo Madara for at least 60 seconds....

Then I will admit they are on the same level as Killer Bee


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## Skaddix (Jan 8, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Gai defeated Kisame who defeated Killer Bee, Gai has had similar portrayal though out the war they were both significant in the jinchurki and the Obito fight , they served a similar role backing up Naruto and Kakashi respectively , I disagree with bee and kisame being stronger than Kakashi and Gai being his equal, Kakashi did better against Nagato, did better against Obito, Kakashi like kishimoto said has been highlighted in this war as being one of its major players , Bee and Gai although powerful don't have that distinction and even in pt 1 Itachi warned kisame that kakashi could injure him
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all ABC does not work in this manga since matchups play  a pretty important role in how any fight might go down and to a lesser extent location. Kakashi fought non Edo Nagato that is hardly comparable to Edo since Edo pretty much gets rid of Nagato's primary weaknesses. As for Obito the reason he does so well is because he has one of Obito's Eyes. Its not a matter of pure power at all or even skill. Yes, Kakahsi has had more of a role but that is because the plot kinda drives through him at least as it relates to Obito. Power Level is not directly related to importance although there is a strong correlation. 

Now looking at your list I think you need to factor in location and starting distance especially when talking about Gai and Bee because some of that list I seriously doubt their ability to do anything before dying. Of that list I give u Muu because invisibility is hax and I am not sure if he is allowed to use Jutsu while using Invisibility. But Gaara is heavily location dependent sure he can make sand if he is on dirt but I dont think he is going to have the time to do that. Now if he is in the desert then much more problematic. Oonki i dont think he has the reaction time to hit either Bee or Gai and does his move counter non physically based attacks. If they unleash energy blast at him I am not sure he can do anything besides put up a rock wall. Trollkage would be troublesome but you can just burn out his chakra supply if he is in melee range then I doubt his ability so summon and activate his clam before dying. And Bee of course has the option to just devastate all of the battlefield which should probably hit the Clam no matter what. Kisame can also flood the whole area. 

First of all J-man does not have a damn thing in his arsenal that will save him from a menacing ball killing him. Frog Song we can debate whether Bee can break out of it but it does come with quite the setup time which make its rather tricky in my book. Not to mention J-man needs time to activate his Sage mode which again makes location rather important. Because he is not going to fare well without Sage Mode. And once again he fought the non Edo version which is quite a bit weaker then the Edo version. So not really a 1 to 1 comparison like you are pretending it is.

Now looking at your list. Sry Sakura being ranked higher then any of these guys is absurd. Hiruzen (Prime) is rather featless. Hiruzen (Old) Laughable unless we are counting a suicide win. Tsunade again hilarious, support utility should really be a seperate category. We already no Part 1 Orochimaru cannot survive a menacing ball and who in their right mind would just stand there and let him summon those coffins. Current Orchimaru? Well besides healing Tsunade I dont remember him doing much to be honest. Danzo once again another character who needs a gimmick to stand a chance so again combat range is important unless we are saying he is going to open with his mind control eye but without that I don't see why it would be hard to kill him several times like Sauce did. Not to mention I am unsure he would get a chance to activate that jutsu. I got bored but those stand out the most.


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## Jad (Jan 8, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Show me that Gai and Kisame can hold their own against Edo Madara for at least 60 seconds....
> 
> Then I will admit they are on the same level as Killer Bee



Well Gai did keep Madara out for an entire chapter


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## Turrin (Jan 8, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Gai defeated Kisame who defeated Killer Bee, Gai has had similar portrayal though out the war they were both significant in the jinchurki and the Obito fight , they served a similar role backing up Naruto and Kakashi respectively , I disagree with bee and kisame being stronger than Kakashi and Gai being his equal, Kakashi did better against Nagato, did better against Obito, Kakashi like kishimoto said has been highlighted in this war as being one of its major players , Bee and Gai although powerful don't have that distinction and even in pt 1 Itachi warned kisame that kakashi could injure him


Kakashi was more of the driving force because of the fact that he possessed Kamui, which could be used to exploit one of the main antagonists' weaknesses. In that instance it's not a power issue, it's a connection to the antagonist issue. If his Kamui did not have that connection w/ Obito's, he would not have been any more of a driving force than Gai. Let's also not forget that in this war Kakashi benefits from being hopped up on Kyuubi Chakra or getting his regened from medical ninja, which is a much bigger boon for him than in the case of Killer B who has the stamina to keep fighting for extended duration like this and whose moves do not have a recoil effet like Kakashi's MS. Killer B traditionally had much better feats than Kakashi. B beating all the Edo Jin when they were in 1-tail mode is something I very much doubt Kakashi could accomplish. Like wise B decimating Team Taka is also something I do not see Kaklashi being able to accomplish w/ the same degree of difficulty as B. And basically what this comes down to is that Kakashi can punch in B's weight class, but he needs Kamui to do so, which traditionally his number of shots is limited and it causes a massive strain on him in a way B's powers do not.  So I do not see Kakashi as stronger than B, I see him as more useful in this particular battle.

Kakashi and Gai I see as equivalent, until 8th Gate proves otherwise, which I accept that it easily could.



> If you look at my tier list Mid Kage's are Onoki, Trollkage, Gaara(current), Muu who I think would defeat both Bee and Kisame , .


All of these characters could also defeat a Sannin (Including Part I Orochimaru who is a whole tier above them) and actually they are underrated on your tier list as they easily should be up their w/ Tobirama & Living Minato. Gaara Current is the most debatable in that regard, though I believe B and Kisame would beat him anyway. 



> Jiraiya basically has the Naruto equivalent of super saiyan in the manga in sage mode , its the most heralded technique , Itachi even in Edo form was weary of sage mode users same as he was with Jiraiya when he was alive as well was Kisame , as for Bee, Jiraiya outperformed him against Rinnegan their first time out , even Sage Mode was the key to defeating Obito which meant Jiraiya's power would still be useful against one of the major villains in the manga.


I think SM Jiraiya is on par w/ B & Kisame, the problem is that we have to acknowledge that Jiraiya does require some time to initiate that power up, while B and Kisame can start throwing around their power from the start of the match. This to me basically puts J-man on the cusp between Killer B & Kisame level, and the level beneath it. 



> another problem with Kisame is we saw what happened when preta tried to absorb Sage Mode in turned him into stone I would imagine the same thing happening with kisame vs Jiraiya , as for Killer Bee I don't think he has a way around frog song


That's why I said due to bad type match up Kisame may loose to J-man. As for B, i think the main counter to Frog Song is simply to kill J-man before he enter SM or charges the song. The Song gives away the users location, so B could just blast a Bijuu Bomb that way or release Hachimaki in that direction; ether one should at the very least disrupt the charging of the song. 

Though inherently I think that SM J-man can give B & Kisame a good fight. The issue is w/ whether he'd be able to reach SM against them (in various scenarios) w/o being ether killed first, constantly disrupted, or receiving several injuries before obtaining SM.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 8, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi, Minato, and Kabuto (Edo Tensei restricted) vs. Killer B are pretty debatable match-ups, IMO.



Yeah the more I look at it (and through BD matches) I'd say your right.d B would definitely be in the transcendent tier


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## Jagger (Jan 8, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi, Minato, and Kabuto (Edo Tensei restricted) vs. Killer B are pretty debatable match-ups, IMO.
> 
> I would favor Itachi and Minato over B, but I think it's close enough that a case for B winning could be made under the right circumstances and I think B's main weakness against those two is purely his intelligence.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you're right.

If Bee decides to try to overwhelm Itachi with brute force (totally ignoring Hachibi's advices) and uses Bijuu Mode, he can easily be sniped with an Amaterasu. He can escape, but that leaves him with a huge opening.


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## rubberguy (Jan 8, 2014)

Bee is definitely on a higher tier than both.


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## Skaddix (Jan 8, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Yeah, you're right.
> 
> If Bee decides to try to overwhelm Itachi with brute force (totally ignoring Hachibi's advices) and uses Bijuu Mode, he can easily be sniped with an Amaterasu. He can escape, but that leaves him with a huge opening.



Ama is not going to kill him quickly enough though. So basically it boils down to whether you think Susano can tank multiple menacing balls.

I don't think Bee is transcendent though. 

But yeah the main point is J-man would do okay if he ever got to Sage Mode I just dont think he has a chance in hell to get into Sage Mode before dying unless he is fighting in a sewage system again.

Kakashi's main problem tends to be a lack of sustain and the fact that the surprise power of Kamui is very helpful. Bee and Gai on the other hand are a lot less effected by someone knowing what they can do.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 8, 2014)

Killer Bee is High Kage (Itachi, SM Naruto, Oonoki, MS Sasuke). Gai is Mid Kage level (Tsunade, Gaara, Kakashi, Deidara, Current Base Naruto). Kisame is in between at Mid-High Kage level (A, Sasori, etc).

Killer Bee held back, had hostages to take care of, and was up against the worst match for jinchuriki.

Gai had the advantage of an underwater explosion to deal more damage (physics Kishi) as well as using taijutsu which makes the shark missle useless cause it absorbs chakra from ninjutsu.


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## Skaddix (Jan 8, 2014)

Yeah counterpicking is important in Naruto. Its not DBZ where raw power is the only thing that really matters


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 8, 2014)

> Kakashi was more of the driving force because of the fact that he possessed Kamui, which could be used to exploit one of the main antagonists' weaknesses. In that instance it's not a power issue, it's a connection to the antagonist issue. If his Kamui did not have that connection w/ Obito's, he would not have been any more of a driving force than Gai. Let's also not forget that in this war Kakashi benefits from being hopped up on Kyuubi Chakra or getting his regened from medical ninja, which is a much bigger boon for him than in the case of Killer B who has the stamina to keep fighting for extended duration like this and whose moves do not have a recoil effet like Kakashi's MS. Killer B traditionally had much better feats than Kakashi. B beating all the Edo Jin when they were in 1-tail mode is something I very much doubt Kakashi could accomplish. Like wise B decimating Team Taka is also something I do not see Kaklashi being able to accomplish w/ the same degree of difficulty as B. And basically what this comes down to is that Kakashi can punch in B's weight class, but he needs Kamui to do so, which traditionally his number of shots is limited and it causes a massive strain on him in a way B's powers do not.  So I do not see Kakashi as stronger than B, I see him as more useful in this particular battle.



Yeah but Kakashi's Kamui got better over time , so its not just the jutsu but his skill as well, Kakashi beginning of pt 2 wouldn't be able to use Kamui that effectively as he did in the fight , he went from barely being able to use it 2 times , to being able use it 5 times by his own admission even without Naruto's chakra , he would've been able to Kamui Gedo Medo's head if not for Obito, he also ripped off the Juubi's arm , so yes him having that jutsu did prove to be a great counter to Obito , but I could say the same thing for Obito, if he didn't have Kamui he wouldn't have been as dangerous an enemy to Naruto and crew matter of fact he would've gotten stomped.

I mean Bee's stamina is one of his greatest attributes and one he definitely has on Kakashi but they all were able to fight the tailed beast and Kakashi was doing a great job, another difference is that Kakashi is a character that is always getting stronger while Bee was pretty much maxed out when he was introduced into the story , so the Kakashi in the beginning of pt 2 wouldn't be able to defeat Kakashi, but Kakashi in the war arc with increased stamina able to use Kamui 5 times , he's he would , Sasuke was injured , and has been shown to be reckless in battle, and I don't think at the time had knowledge of Kamui, Sasuke rushes in and gets his head Kamui'd off , then he proceeds to destroy the rest of taka,

Kakashi did much better against Rinnegan his first time out than Killer Bee did and in addition to his Kamui improvement he's the much more intelligent fighter , tha brain of his like Shikamaru , like Itachi is definitely seomthing to factor in a fight between these two, Kakashi like Itachi can utilize a game plan to end the fight very quickly , I mean there is an argument where it could go both ways but Kakashi gets my vote 



> Kakashi and Gai I see as equivalent, until 8th Gate proves otherwise, which I accept that it easily could.



Kakashi was brought up for being the Hokage when tsuande went comatose , and Jiraiya only brought up Kakashi and Naruto as future Hokage candidates , in pt 1 Kakashi was brought up as the top jounin in konoha , he's received greater hype and has a better portrayal in the manga , thing is only match Gai has been seen to dominate is against Kisame an enemy in which Kakashi would defeat as well, Kakashi was allowed to fight Pain while Gai was told to stay out of the battle and thats with Naruto on the battlefield , I think the war arc has painted Kakashi and Obito as the rival parallel, Obito like Naruto, Hashirama, Hiurzen is just the stronger of the two




> All of these characters could also defeat a Sannin (Including Part I Orochimaru who is a whole tier above them) and actually they are underrated on your tier list as they easily should be up their w/ Tobirama & Living Minato. Gaara Current is the most debatable in that regard, though I believe B and Kisame would beat him anyway.



sure once you get into Kage levels all these characters have a shot at beating one another , Living Minato hype is too tremendous and so are his feats , living Minato was still capable of defeating Rinnegan Obito , he was called the savior of the world , Onoki even told his whole army to flee from him , Tobirama there is an argument but I give him priority for simply being a legendary Hokage and he also defeated Izuna Uchiha pretty easily and fought 20 Kin/Gin force , a character like Jiraiya to me represents the strength of Onoki/Edo Kages very powerful shinobi but just short of the Hall Of Fame characters in this manga.




> I think SM Jiraiya is on par w/ B & Kisame, the problem is that we have to acknowledge that Jiraiya does require some time to initiate that power up, while B and Kisame can start throwing around their power from the start of the match. This to me basically puts J-man on the cusp between Killer B & Kisame level, and the level beneath it.



I mean we could argue Mifune cutting of his head before he reaches SM, in the battledome kisame and bee could defeat him , kishi loves Jiraiya and I doubt he would have characters like Bee/Kisame being able to defeat him, I always look at characters at their strongest , I doubt is he wrote the fight he wouldn't allow Sage Mode to come into play, Sage Mode is thee most importnant technique in the manga , its being hyped beyond even the tailed beast, even Kurama, even with Kurama's power it took Sage Mode to defeat Juubito, with Sage Mode Hashirama dominated Madara and the 9 tails, Naruto fought Kurama in Sage Mode, Kabuto took on two Uchiha prodigies with Sage Mode, Sage Mode is the reason why I would give him the priority over Bee and Kisame.




> That's why I said due to bad type match up Kisame may loose to J-man. As for B, i think the main counter to Frog Song is simply to kill J-man before he enter SM or charges the song. The Song gives away the users location, so B could just blast a Bijuu Bomb that way or release Hachimaki in that direction; ether one should at the very least disrupt the charging of the song.



Thats true and I give Bee a better shot at beating J-Man, but J-Man is a very intelligent and experienced fighter , i would think a shinobi of his caliber would have a way to defend himself until he reaches SM, he could summon the toads , to hold off Bee until he reaches SM, and as I said above to me Sage Mode has been hyped above even the tailed beast themselves , Ten Tails which is the strongest of them was weak to Sage Mode, so I think like Kisame , Sage Mode is a bad matchup for tailed beast or has been shown to be able to defeat them.


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## Skaddix (Jan 8, 2014)

Again Bee fought the Edo Version while Kakashi fought the non Edo Version. Its not equivalent at all because Edo had all the powers in one body and was not crippled. 

Bee's first fight involved him killing Sasuke Twice and outsmarting him. No doubt Sasuke is one of Kishi's fave. 

That is an assumption. Show me what feats J-man has that suggests he has any chance of getting into Sage Mode assuming a reasonable start distance and not in a sewage system. Toads are going to stop Bee? Please he owned what 7 Tailed Beast at the same time. J-man has nothing in his arsenal that will save his *** from a menacing Ball. Welcome to the Battledome, feats not fanboyism. Besides its not like Bee never got hype. He got hype from Minato, he is the Perfect Jin and is one of only 5 to ever master a Bijuu. But I dont put much stock in titles like that feats are all that matter here because Naruto is not completely about steamrolling and pretty much every ability has some weaknesses. Except when your an Edo.


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## Turrin (Jan 8, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah but Kakashi's Kamui got better over time , so its not just the jutsu but his skill as well, Kakashi beginning of pt 2 wouldn't be able to use Kamui that effectively as he did in the fight , he went from barely being able to use it 2 times , to being able use it 5 times by his own admission even without Naruto's chakra , he would've been able to Kamui Gedo Medo's head if not for Obito, he also ripped off the Juubi's arm , so yes him having that jutsu did prove to be a great counter to Obito , but I could say the same thing for Obito, if he didn't have Kamui he wouldn't have been as dangerous an enemy to Naruto and crew matter of fact he would've gotten stomped.


I think your confusing issues. 

- Yes Kakashi has gotten better w/ Kamui, but it still takes a-lot more out of him to use Kamui than it does for B to use his triumph card (Full Hachibi) or Kisame's triumph card (Kisamahada). 

- Yes Obito would have been stomped w/o Kamui, but i'm not talking about taking Kakashi's Kamui away; i'm merely saying if it wasn't uniquely connected to Obito's Kamui, he would not have performed as well. (For example if both Kamui's went to different dimensions)



> I mean Bee's stamina is one of his greatest attributes and one he definitely has on Kakashi but they all were able to fight the tailed beast and Kakashi was doing a great job,


Kakashi took on some V2 Jin, he didn't really taking on a Tailed Beast; unless simply evading ones attack counts (or i'm forgetting something). B actually did take on Tailed Beasts in his Full Hachibi form. Additionally there is no way in hell Kakashi is beating a Tailed Beast w/o Kamui (which has it's large toll), while B could beat probably any Tailed Beats (besides 9-tails/10-tails) with his Hachibi Transformation (that doesn't have nearly as large of a toll). 



> another difference is that Kakashi is a character that is always getting stronger while Bee was pretty much maxed out when he was introduced into the story


B has been gained experience, intel, and he got Samehada. I'll grant you that Kakashi has grown more over the course of Part II than B, but B was introduced as a much stronger shinobi than start of Part II; So to me Kakashi is still playing catch up. 



> Sasuke was injured , and has been shown to be reckless in battle, and I don't think at the time had knowledge of Kamui, Sasuke rushes in and gets his head Kamui'd off ,


I find the speed in which Kakashi resorts to Kamui in this scenario highly unlikely as Kakashi is very conservative in his Kamui usage when he doesn't have Kyuubi Chakra and Medics backing him up. However Kakashi could beat Sasuke w/ Kamui, but again that would simply be another demonstration of Kakashi needing to use Kamui (w/ it's high toll) to do what B can accomplish w/ less straining abilities. 



> Kakashi did much better against Rinnegan his first time out than Killer Bee did


This is a really unfair comparison. Kakashi was up against just Deva Realm; while B fought Nagato. 



> and in addition to his Kamui improvement he's the much more intelligent fighter , tha brain of his like Shikamaru , like Itachi is definitely seomthing to factor in a fight between these two, Kakashi like Itachi can utilize a game plan to end the fight very quickly , I mean there is an argument where it could go both ways but Kakashi gets my vote


Kakashi's smart, but just saying he is smart so he'll figure out a way to win is not a good argument to me. 



> Kakashi was brought up for being the Hokage when tsuande went comatose , and Jiraiya only brought up Kakashi and Naruto as future Hokage candidates , in pt 1 Kakashi was brought up as the top jounin in konoha , he's received greater hype and has a better portrayal in the manga , t


No one is putting Gai as Hokage even if he's stronger than Kakashi, for obvious personality based reasons and we don't even know if Gai himself would want the position (I kind of doubt it as it would cut into his training). As for portrayal strength wise, I disagree w/ you that Gai has recieved an inferior portrayal. Through the manga they have been indicated to be rivals, with the only indication of whose ahead in their rivalry have been things leaning towards Gai; Gai stating he's ahead in their duels & Gai stating he's stronger than Kakashi in the CE Arc. Like wise Gai defeating a Kisame whose hopped up on Hachibi/B chakra is easily as impressive as anything Kakashi has accomplished thus far imo. Not only that, but Gai kept pace w/ Kakashi perfectly during the war -- if not was performing better than him slightly as he was taking on a Full Biju Rokubi while Kakashi took on just V2 Jin -- until the point where Kamui's connection to Obito's Kamui was being exploited, but that is highly situation based advantage Kakashi had. Finally when the Bijuu were about to release their Tailed Beast Bombs, depending on your interpretation of the scene ether Kakashi & Gai had to both die to stop the bombs (w/ Kakashi maxing out Kamui and Gai going 8th Gate) or Gai would have done it by himself w/ 8th Gate; ether way at worst that scene indicated equality, at best superiority on the part of Gai.



> thing is only match Gai has been seen to dominate is against Kisame an enemy in which Kakashi would defeat as wel


Kakashi beating Kisame is hardly such a forgone conclusion. 

-Kakashi Raitons get absorbed by Kisame. 
-Kisame (in fused form) can sense when Kakashi is going to use a Dojutsu tech and interrupt him, evade, or create Bushin
-Kisame only needs to touch him once in Kisamhada form to zap all of his chakra, considering how much chakra Kisamehada could absorb from B in an instant
-And if Kakashi keeps his distances he'd get overwhelmed by the sheer scale of Kisame's suitons considering how powerful they became after absorbing Hachibi/B chakra.
-Kakashi also needs to worry about being drowned in Shark Dance Prison, something Kakashi has no ability to escape

Kisame beats Kakashi more often than the reverse happens in my book.



> Kakashi was allowed to fight Pain while Gai was told to stay out of the battle and thats with Naruto on the battlefield


Umm... Naruto being on the battlefield is why Gai was told to stay out of it in the first place, as Naruto wanted to handle things himself. So that is not really a good example. 



> , I think the war arc has painted Kakashi and Obito as the rival parallel, Obito like Naruto, Hashirama, Hiurzen is just the stronger of the two


Oh come on now; Obito has left Kakashi so far in the dust in terms of the power he achieved, your smoking some serious dope if you think those 2 are even remotely close at any point other than when fighting in the Kamui dimension and w/ Obito emotionally in shambles. 



> sure once you get into Kage levels all these characters have a shot at beating one another , Living Minato hype is too tremendous and so are his feats , living Minato was still capable of defeating Rinnegan Obito


Yeah because he had a tag he placed on him when he was much weaker and attacked him when he was half dead already. If he fought Rinnegan Obito w/o that tag, and w/ Rinnegan Obito being at full power w/ his Bijuu Rikudo, he'd stand no chance of winning that in Base.


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## Turrin (Jan 8, 2014)

> he was called the savior of the world , Onoki even told his whole army to flee from him , Tobirama there is an argument but I give him priority for simply being a legendary Hokage and he also defeated Izuna Uchiha pretty easily and fought 20 Kin/Gin force , a character like Jiraiya to me represents the strength of Onoki/Edo Kages very powerful shinobi but just short of the Hall Of Fame characters in this manga.


None of this puts ether of them above those Kages. 

-Until Izuna Uchiha is proven to be stronger than one of those Kages, beating him doesn't prove much
-Onoki's army not engaging Minato is not the same as one of the strongest Kages not engaging him
-Dying to Gin/Kin Squad really doesn't prove anything, especially when the manga indicates Gin/Kin alone were enough to beat down Tobirama; so all that says is Ginkaku Squad > Gin/Kin > Tobirama (This coming from a Tobirama fan mind you).

- All of those Kages are stronger than Jiraiya, unless he manages to achieve SM, which is the issue.



> I mean we could argue Mifune cutting of his head before he reaches SM, i


There is no way in hell we could argue that w/ Mifune's current feats. 



> in the battledome kisame and bee could defeat him


I don't separate BD from manga as that's stupid to me



> , kishi loves Jiraiya and I doubt he would have characters like Bee/Kisame being able to defeat him, I always look at characters at their strongest , I doubt is he wrote the fight he wouldn't allow Sage Mode to come into play,


I don't see Kishi loves a certain character as an acceptable argument or one that can be substantiated to claim that a certain character achieves something in battle against another character. Especially since Kishi by his own admission talked about how much he loved Deidara and how Deidara was his favorite Edo Tensei, and than had him raped by the ambush Squad. So Kishi's love for a character does not seem to blind him; unless were talking Shikkamaru. 



> Sage Mode is thee most importnant technique in the manga , its being hyped beyond even the tailed beast, even Kurama, even with Kurama's power it took Sage Mode to defeat Juubito, with Sage Mode Hashirama dominated Madara and the 9 tails, Naruto fought Kurama in Sage Mode, Kabuto took on two Uchiha prodigies with Sage Mode, Sage Mode is the reason why I would give him the priority over Bee and Kisame.


I agree w/ this, but J-man is not a perfect Senjutsu user and he needs a decent bit of time to summon Ma/PA. These characters can pull out SM J-man level power right from the start of the match; that should give them the nod over J-man, unless you can give me a good argument for J-man reaching SM against them every time; and no I don't accept Kishi loves him.



> Thats true and I give Bee a better shot at beating J-Man, but J-Man is a very intelligent and experienced fighter , i would think a shinobi of his caliber would have a way to defend himself until he reaches SM, he could summon the toads , to hold off Bee until he reaches SM, and as I said above to me Sage Mode has been hyped above even the tailed beast themselves


B would dance circles around the Toads, if Deva Realm was able to w/ his speed, so I don't think just throwing the summons at B is going to do much. I'm willing to give J-man more of a benefit of the doubt than most (He's one of my favorite characters), but until I see a reasonable way that he reaches SM against B (in good condition) in most scenarios I'm not comfortable saying they are anywhere near equivalent to each other. Yes J-man can win, if he's on the right battlefield that is conducive to reaching SM, the right distance/knowledge stipulations, and the battle plays out just right, but that can apply to a-lot of people that are a typically weaker than a certain character and managed to win under extremely favorable conditions.



> Ten Tails which is the strongest of them was weak to Sage Mode, so I think like Kisame , Sage Mode is a bad matchup for tailed beast or has been shown to be able to defeat them.


We haven't seen it having any type advantage on the Tailed Beasts, and Juubi was not weak to SM, he was resistant to everything else, and only Senjutsu could actually damage him; no indication that it increased the damage or was weak to it though.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 9, 2014)

> think your confusing issues.
> 
> - Yes Kakashi has gotten better w/ Kamui, but it still takes a-lot more out of him to use Kamui than it does for B to use his triumph card (Full Hachibi) or Kisame's triumph card (Kisamahada).
> 
> - Yes Obito would have been stomped w/o Kamui, but i'm not talking about taking Kakashi's Kamui away; i'm merely saying if it wasn't uniquely connected to Obito's Kamui, he would not have performed as well. (For example if both Kamui's went to different dimensions)



Yeah but thats a distinction they have being different types of fighters, they have infinitely more stamina than most characters in the manga , that would be like saying Mei and 4th Kazekage can use their trump cards more than Sick Itachi then that means they are superior shinobi and can win the matchup, because they have more stamina , but its about lethality and just overall performance and how said shinobi would use  those techniques, remember with Kamui he was close to taking off the head of Gedo Medzo and would've been successful if not for Obito's interference , so not only the amount of usage has increased, the size of Objects has increased as well being able to take off the ten tails arm which is larger or the size of most shinobi.


It is literally the same thing  because we saw the flip side when Obito faced Minato, Obito fought an enemy he just couldn't defeat because Minato had a technique that was a direct counter to his , yet he's received much praise for the battle.




> Kakashi took on some V2 Jin, he didn't really taking on a Tailed Beast; unless simply evading ones attack counts (or i'm forgetting something). B actually did take on Tailed Beasts in his Full Hachibi form. Additionally there is no way in hell Kakashi is beating a Tailed Beast w/o Kamui (which has it's large toll), while B could beat probably any Tailed Beats (besides 9-tails/10-tails) with his Hachibi Transformation (that doesn't have nearly as large of a toll).



Bee was getting his ass kicked until Naruto achieved BM, matter of fact it was Kakashi and Gai that both said they would've been able to deflect the multiple tailed beast bomb , something Bee couldn't even do, besides why would Killer Bee get a pass for just being a good matchup for the tailed beast being the 8 tailed jin as Kakashi did against Obito, it evens up , Bee was able to take on tailed beast while Kakashi was able to take on Obito.




> B has been gained experience, intel, and he got Samehada. I'll grant you that Kakashi has grown more over the course of Part II than B, but B was introduced as a much stronger shinobi than start of Part II; So to me Kakashi is still playing catch up.



No Kakashi HAS caught up in and in someways surpassed, thats like saying Jiraiya and Tsunade started out as stronger than Kakashi but he has caught up with them as well, and Kakashi being able to use Kamui more effectively and improving his chakra are bigger than Samehada considering Kamui is more powerful and Bee hasn't really tapped into the full power like Kisame did.




> I find the speed in which Kakashi resorts to Kamui in this scenario highly unlikely as Kakashi is very conservative in his Kamui usage when he doesn't have Kyuubi Chakra and Medics backing him up. However Kakashi could beat Sasuke w/ Kamui, but again that would simply be another demonstration of Kakashi needing to use Kamui (w/ it's high toll) to do what B can accomplish w/ less straining abilities.



No the difference would be Sasuke would be dead or totally disfigured if Kakashi gets off Kamui, because of Suigestu they were able to survive against Bee's strongest technique , while with Kakashi there would be nothing Taka could do if he had his head Kamui off or one of his limbs which Kakashi if full well capable of doing with recent showings




> This is a really unfair comparison. Kakashi was up against just Deva Realm; while B fought Nagato.



Deva Realm was much more powerful than the other realms combined and he was also backed up by Naruto who is more more powerful the Chouza and Chouji, Bee was mainly defeated by Preta and Asura and got caught up unlike Kakashi, it seems the forums are always making excuses for Bee



> Kakashi's smart, but just saying he is smart so he'll figure out a way to win is not a good argument to me.



Well intelligence is very powerful attribute to have Shikamaru is of ordinary ninja talent yet he was promoted chunnin above all the other rookies who are stronger, Obito called him a dangerous man, for all of Itachi's M.S abilities he was mostly dangerous because of his knowledge of the shinobi world, and his insight , and ninja skills, Kakashi is pretty much the same, Kakashi , Itachi, Shikamaru have dominated in team setting which also seems to be important to kishi



> No one is putting Gai as Hokage even if he's stronger than Kakashi, for obvious personality based reasons and we don't even know if Gai himself would want the position (I kind of doubt it as it would cut into his training). As for portrayal strength wise, I disagree w/ you that Gai has recieved an inferior portrayal. Through the manga they have been indicated to be rivals, with the only indication of whose ahead in their rivalry have been things leaning towards Gai; Gai stating he's ahead in their duels & Gai stating he's stronger than Kakashi in the CE Arc. Like wise Gai defeating a Kisame whose hopped up on Hachibi/B chakra is easily as impressive as anything Kakashi has accomplished thus far imo. Not only that, but Gai kept pace w/ Kakashi perfectly during the war -- if not was performing better than him slightly as he was taking on a Full Biju Rokubi while Kakashi took on just V2 Jin -- until the point where Kamui's connection to Obito's Kamui was being exploited, but that is highly situation based advantage Kakashi had. Finally when the Bijuu were about to release their Tailed Beast Bombs, depending on your interpretation of the scene ether Kakashi & Gai had to both die to stop the bombs (w/ Kakashi maxing out Kamui and Gai going 8th Gate) or Gai would have done it by himself w/ 8th Gate; ether way at worst that scene indicated equality, at best superiority on the part of Gai.



Gai is not an idiot and would be perfectly equipped of taking on the position from a mental standpoint , I mean Raikage , Onoki 2nd Mizukage don't seem to be significantly more intelligent than Gai , its just their the strongest in their respective villages , they are promoted mostly due to their strength , if Gai was on a similar level or a rival his name would've been brought up as being a Hokage Candidate by Gai and even after the Pain Arc,

SO wait a minute on one hand you tell me Gai beating Kisame who is a great match because he doesn't utilize ninjutsu and is mostly a taijutsu based fighter, but Kakashi who held his own against a much stronger opponent gets knocked because he's a perfect matchup, to me Gai is about as good a counter to Kisame as Kakashi is to Gai , only except Obito is tiers above Kisame that Kisame was his minion , and as I stated above Minato receives much hype and rightfully so for having the same kind of advantage over Obito

The difference is Kakashi's trump card is based upon his chakra level, if he has enough chakra he could use kamui and live, Gai trump card is automatic death,

I mean Kakashi is still front and center in the limelight in the center of the plot while Gai is reduced to the sidelines





> Kakashi beating Kisame is hardly such a forgone conclusion.
> 
> -Kakashi Raitons get absorbed by Kisame.
> -Kisame (in fused form) can sense when Kakashi is going to use a Dojutsu tech and interrupt him, evade, or create Bushin
> ...



I think Kakashi is a perfect counter for Kisame although he wouldn't beat Kisame as easily, Kakashi would deduce very quickly that Kisame can absorb chakra and its not like Kakashi uses high induced ninjutsu attacks , all Kakashi would need to do is hide behind Earth Wall which would take care of the suitons then use a clone feint while Kakashi sets up Kamui.




> Umm... Naruto being on the battlefield is why Gai was told to stay out of it in the first place, as Naruto wanted to handle things himself. So that is not really a good example.



Kishi is an author telling a story , he could've easily put Gai in Kakashi's position yet have Kakashi be told to stay out of the battle, shit Kakashi has never been told to stay out of any battle, you think Kishi would do that to any  character he sees on that level





> Oh come on now; Obito has left Kakashi so far in the dust in terms of the power he achieved, your smoking some serious dope if you think those 2 are even remotely close at any point other than when fighting in the Kamui dimension and w/ Obito emotionally in shambles.



Really , Naruto is about to become the second coming of  Rikudo Sennin, by the time the story is finished Naruto will leave Sasuke in the dust, Danzo even after all the transplants still admitted inferiority to Hiruzen, and look what Danzo had to do and he still wasn't as strong as Hiurzen , Hashirama was still stomping Madara even when he had Rinnegan and Senju Cells, and seemed to always be a good deal stronger than Madara even when he had EMS and Kurama, shit Nagato was much stronger than Yahiko, Obito is the Naruto in their relationship , just like Naruto, Hiruzen, Hashirama, the flashback showed us that Obito would've become Hokage if things have worked out differently.

In Naruto the Naruto parallel always leaves the counterpart in the dust, but their relationship has been highlighted as being similar to Sasuke/Naruto since Kakashi Gaiden if you cant see that then you're the one thats smoking 




> Yeah because he had a tag he placed on him when he was much weaker and attacked him when he was half dead already. If he fought Rinnegan Obito w/o that tag, and w/ Rinnegan Obito being at full power w/ his Bijuu Rikudo, he'd stand no chance of winning that in Base.



Thats just his power and his hax, it was his ability a Uzumaki Fuinjutsu which are shaping up to be the strongest techs in the manga , which allowed him to forever be able to defeat a shinobi in which he marks , Juubito countered it anyways meaning thats when he surpassed Minato's level


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 9, 2014)

> None of this puts ether of them above those Kages.
> 
> -Until Izuna Uchiha is proven to be stronger than one of those Kages, beating him doesn't prove much
> -Onoki's army not engaging Minato is not the same as one of the strongest Kages not engaging him
> -Dying to Gin/Kin Squad really doesn't prove anything, especially when the manga indicates Gin/Kin alone were enough to beat down Tobirama; so all that says is Ginkaku Squad > Gin/Kin > Tobirama (This coming from a Tobirama fan mind you).



-Izuna Uchiha was a MS user who fought evenly with Madara , the MS has given 3 shinobi abilities which shit on most character sans the Hokage 

- So Onoki just sat on his ass while his army got stomped  in the war and did nothing or at least wanted to do anything more than likely there was nothing he can do and it makes sense considering , kishi told us in pt 1 Old Hiruzen was stronger than him,

-Think about it he fought 20 ninjas that had enough power to stage a coup against the second raikage and Tobirama, where does it say they alone beat him down, it specifically said 20 elite soldiers + kin/gin and he still survived 



> - All of those Kages are stronger than Jiraiya, unless he manages to achieve SM, which is the issue.



I tend to look at things differently, I look at which shinobi would win at their absolute strongest , as when kishi highlights certain characters they will always utilize their strongest attacks, I would rather judge how each shinobi would handle Sage Mode seeing as how I just couldn't imagine him having him lose a battle before he reaches SM, he even did so against a enemy who I think is stronger than the Kages , Nagato




> There is no way in hell we could argue that w/ Mifune's current feats.



Mifune swordskill and CQC abilities are just that hax, rusty hanzo is about as strong as base jiraiya and Mifune was able to defeat him




> I don't separate BD from manga as that's stupid to me



I think it would be foolish not to, in the BD we use feats to come up with hypothetical scenario's in which said shinobi could win, where as in the manga its very very different , lets be real how many fights did you think said shinobi would lose only for them to pull another jutsu out there ass, or for the prohibited favorite to be trolled in battle.

Deidara is the perfect example of this , fans can use his feats to come up with scenario's in which he can fight on par with shinobi that has proven or kishi wants you to think that are stronger than him.



> I don't see Kishi loves a certain character as an acceptable argument or one that can be substantiated to claim that a certain character achieves something in battle against another character. Especially since Kishi by his own admission talked about how much he loved Deidara and how Deidara was his favorite Edo Tensei, and than had him raped by the ambush Squad. So Kishi's love for a character does not seem to blind him; unless were talking Shikkamaru.



Deidara has never shown he loves deidara and went out of his way to embarrass him, Jiraiya received his own arc, where he went against a major villain held his own and was stated as being able to win if he had knowledge , out of all the legendary shinobi , Jiraiya wasn't even brought back as an edo-tensei , even after losing the fight , Obito says actually Jiraiya defeated me , then we find out Tsunade was actually in love with him, he's said to be one of the wealthiest shinobi in the world , Jiraiya's technique sage mode was the main catalyst of defeating Obito the main villain. he's similar to shikamaru and I'll also say Gaara.





> I agree w/ this, but J-man is not a perfect Senjutsu user and he needs a decent bit of time to summon Ma/PA. These characters can pull out SM J-man level power right from the start of the match; that should give them the nod over J-man, unless you can give me a good argument for J-man reaching SM against them every time; and no I don't accept Kishi loves him.



They can pull out J-Man level power I disagree with that , Sage Mode is allowing characters to take on the ten tails beast, Hachibi and Kisame have nothing that could do damage to the ten tails, Kisame was already defeated by base Jiraiya in the manga and I don't really see him having anything to really hurt Jiraiya , he can hide in the toad until he reaches SM then after that its a wrap for Kisame, all that besides kishi loving him




> B would dance circles around the Toads, if Deva Realm was able to w/ his speed, so I don't think just throwing the summons at B is going to do much. I'm willing to give J-man more of a benefit of the doubt than most (He's one of my favorite characters), but until I see a reasonable way that he reaches SM against B (in good condition) in most scenarios I'm not comfortable saying they are anywhere near equivalent to each other. Yes J-man can win, if he's on the right battlefield that is conducive to reaching SM, the right distance/knowledge stipulations, and the battle plays out just right, but that can apply to a-lot of people that are a typically weaker than a certain character and managed to win under extremely favorable conditions.



I think Jiraiya has many ways to slow down bee or at least stall to get into sage mode, Toton jutsu,toad shop technique , yoni numa , to be honest a lot his his arsenal revolves around espionage , and jutsu that will allow him to enter SM, although out of all the 3 Bee, Gai, Kisame , I give Bee the best shot because of his speed.





> We haven't seen it having any type advantage on the Tailed Beasts, and Juubi was not weak to SM, he was resistant to everything else, and only Senjutsu could actually damage him; no indication that it increased the damage or was weak to it though.



Yeah If Sage Mode is the only way to damage him and this is basically Rikudo's power its safe to say its probably the number one technique in the manga , probably up their with Uzumaki fuijutsu.


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## Shariwin (Jan 9, 2014)

You are crazy OP.

Killer Bee = High Tier Kage

Kisame + Sword = Mid tier Kage

Gai = Low tier Kage with 7 gates (8 gates isn't worth discussing)



Strategoob said:


> They're all High Kage (and would beat any of the Gokage imo.)
> 
> Hype-wise, you have your "bijū without a tail," perfect jinchūriki, and master of the Celestial Gates.
> 
> ...




That's why Kakashi and Gai was asked to be the Hokage in part 1 right?!  Ohh wait, no that didn't happen.  They asked the sannin, who are far stronger!


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## asstonine (Jan 9, 2014)

Killer Bee would own the shit out of Gai, are you kidding me?   He is at least mid kage just in base, and he is a perfect jin! 

Kisame was able to beat him only due to his sword.  
The very sword he lacked when fighting Gai!  


Killer Bee >>> Kisame >> Gai
Gai needs 7 gates just to get into the Kage territory!


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 9, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> You are crazy OP.
> 
> Killer Bee = High Tier Kage
> 
> ...



How is Kisame an entire tier above Gai , when Gai destroyed him even after he absorbed Hachibi's chakra, and have always been pitted against each other since pt 1,

Killer Bee with him there is an argument to be made for Mid which is Jiraiya level, although I disagree but high Kage that is Minato, Hashirama, Nagato , EMS Sasuke ext.


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## Jagger (Jan 9, 2014)

Izuna is the definition of a featless character.

It lacks any kind of appropiate feats in order to rank him. The fact he had MS proves he was skilled, yes. But how much? Lesser than the Sasuke that fought Bee or stronger? We will never know.


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## ueharakk (Jan 10, 2014)

Kisame and Gai are around the same level.  

unrestricted killer bee is way above  both of them.  The manga made it pretty clear that after Naruto, Bee was *easily the most powerful shinobi the alliance had with them* before the arrival of sasuke and the edo kages.  he simultaneously save the whole alliance and crippled the juubi in one move and was the key player in shikamaru's plan to save the alliance as well.

And that's ignoring the massive feat disparity of Bee being able to fire machine gun bijuudama's, level entire forests with his whirlwind, survive getting directly hit by a bijuudama, and being able to punch away bijuu.


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## Turrin (Jan 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah but thats a distinction they have being different types of fighters, they have infinitely more stamina than most characters in the manga , that would be like saying Mei and 4th Kazekage can use their trump cards more than Sick Itachi then that means they are superior shinobi and can win the matchup, because they have more stamina , but its about lethality and just overall performance and how said shinobi would use  those techniques, remember with Kamui he was close to taking off the head of Gedo Medzo and would've been successful if not for Obito's interference , so not only the amount of usage has increased, the size of Objects has increased as well being able to take off the ten tails arm which is larger or the size of most shinobi.


The difference is I would not say Mei and 4th Kazekage's Triumph cards are as good as Kamui; however B's Hachibi Mode and Kisame Kisamhada mode (when hopped up on Hachibi Chakra) to me are just as good as Kamui; only difference is they can again be used more freely.



> Bee was getting his ass kicked until Naruto achieved BM, matter of fact it was Kakashi and Gai that both said they would've been able to deflect the multiple tailed beast bomb , something Bee couldn't even do, besides why would Killer Bee get a pass for just being a good matchup for the tailed beast being the 8 tailed jin as Kakashi did against Obito, it evens up , Bee was able to take on tailed beast while Kakashi was able to take on Obito.


Ether that scene can be read as Gai was going to do it all w/ 8th Gate in which case Kakashi was never part of the convo and I've already said perhaps Gai could measure up w/ 8th gate. Or Kakashi and Gai were going to do it together at the cost of both their lives, in which case Gai + Kakashi combined are obviously superior to just B or just Kisame.

I fail to see how B is a good match up for other Jin, just because he is a Jin himself; it's a similar match up, but it's not like it allows him to specifically counter their abilities in a way no one else could as is the case w/ Kakashi and Obito's Kamui.



> No Kakashi HAS caught up in and in someways surpassed, thats like saying Jiraiya and Tsunade started out as stronger than Kakashi but he has caught up with them as well, and Kakashi being able to use Kamui more effectively and improving his chakra are bigger than Samehada considering Kamui is more powerful and Bee hasn't really tapped into the full power like Kisame did.


It's your opinion he caught up; he has yet to prove it to me. Kamui improvements make him closer, but not enough to catch up, I already expressed why. Yes they are bigger improvements, but Kakashi started from a much lower point to begin w/.



> No the difference would be Sasuke would be dead or totally disfigured if Kakashi gets off Kamui, because of Suigestu they were able to survive against Bee's strongest technique , while with Kakashi there would be nothing Taka could do if he had his head Kamui off or one of his limbs which Kakashi if full well capable of doing with recent showings


Sasuke would have been dead 3 times in the B battle as well. There is plenty Taka can do to stop Kamui; they can simply keep attacking Itachi disrupting his attempts to use Kamui. We've never once seen Kakashi use Kamui on a shinobi while being attacked at the same time. This also assumes Kakashi being weaker than B survive to the point where he can use Kamui and is not forced to waste it defensively leaving himself exposed.



> eva Realm was much more powerful than the other realms combined and he was also backed up by Naruto who is more more powerful the Chouza and Chouji, Bee was mainly defeated by Preta and Asura and got caught up unlike Kakashi, it seems the forums are always making excuses for Bee


Just stop; Deva Realm was not more powerful than the other realms combined 



> Well intelligence is very powerful attribute to have Shikamaru is of ordinary ninja talent yet he was promoted chunnin above all the other rookies who are stronger, Obito called him a dangerous man, for all of Itachi's M.S abilities he was mostly dangerous because of his knowledge of the shinobi world, and his insight , and ninja skills, Kakashi is pretty much the same, Kakashi , Itachi, Shikamaru have dominated in team setting which also seems to be important to kishi


I will never accept this as a compelling argument. Yes they are intelligent, no that doesn't mean they will magically pull a strategy out of their ass to win, is a good argument.



> Gai is not an idiot and would be perfectly equipped of taking on the position from a mental standpoint , I mean Raikage , Onoki 2nd Mizukage don't seem to be significantly more intelligent than Gai , its just their the strongest in their respective villages , they are promoted mostly due to their strength , if Gai was on a similar level or a rival his name would've been brought up as being a Hokage Candidate by Gai and even after the Pain Arc,


Gai isn't an idiot but he has shown not interest in the position or ability to act as a governing body as the Hokage would have to. Naruto was deemed as equally strong as Kakashi or potentially stronger, yet he was stated to not be ready yet, why do you think that is? Because he didn't have the mental aspect or wisdom to fill the position yet; Gai while not an idiot also lacks these attributes.



> SO wait a minute on one hand you tell me Gai beating Kisame who is a great match because he doesn't utilize ninjutsu and is mostly a taijutsu based fighter, but Kakashi who held his own against a much stronger opponent gets knocked because he's a perfect matchup, to me Gai is about as good a counter to Kisame as Kakashi is to Gai , only except Obito is tiers above Kisame that Kisame was his minion , and as I stated above Minato receives much hype and rightfully so for having the same kind of advantage over Obito


When did I knock Kakashi. I said he performed better because of match up. Gai also performed better because of match up against Kisame. The difference is that I'm not saying Gai > Killer B because he did better against Kisame as you were trying to imply w/ Kakashi > B & Gai because he did better against Obito. 



> The difference is Kakashi's trump card is based upon his chakra level, if he has enough chakra he could use kamui and live, Gai trump card is automatic death,


Kakashi makes it very clear that in that scenario he'd also die, except he wouldn't succeed on his own.



> I mean Kakashi is still front and center in the limelight in the center of the plot while Gai is reduced to the sidelines


This doesn't matter at all. There are plenty of characters that get almost zero screen time, but are stronger than heavily featured characters. 



> I think Kakashi is a perfect counter for Kisame although he wouldn't beat Kisame as easily, Kakashi would deduce very quickly that Kisame can absorb chakra and its not like Kakashi uses high induced ninjutsu attacks , all Kakashi would need to do is hide behind Earth Wall which would take care of the suitons then use a clone feint while Kakashi sets up Kamui.


There is no way the level of earth wall Kakashi has demonstrated is stopping Kisame's Suitons. Additionally you seemed to have missed everything I said as I clearly stated how Kisame could handle Kakashi's MS (and well all of his abilities). 



> Kishi is an author telling a story , he could've easily put Gai in Kakashi's position yet have Kakashi be told to stay out of the battle, shit Kakashi has never been told to stay out of any battle, you think Kishi would do that to any character he sees on that level


Gai isn't a main character like Kakashi, that's why Kakash got more focus, but that has fuck all to do w/ strength. Look at Sakura she is weaker than plenty of characters that are not main ones.



> Really , Naruto is about to become the second coming of Rikudo Sennin, by the time the story is finished Naruto will leave Sasuke in the dust, Danzo even after all the transplants still admitted inferiority to Hiruzen, and look what Danzo had to do and he still wasn't as strong as Hiurzen , Hashirama was still stomping Madara even when he had Rinnegan and Senju Cells, and seemed to always be a good deal stronger than Madara even when he had EMS and Kurama, shit Nagato was much stronger than Yahiko, Obito is the Naruto in their relationship , just like Naruto, Hiruzen, Hashirama, the flashback showed us that Obito would've become Hokage if things have worked out differently.
> 
> In Naruto the Naruto parallel always leaves the counterpart in the dust, but their relationship has been highlighted as being similar to Sasuke/Naruto since Kakashi Gaiden if you cant see that then you're the one thats smoking


If Naruto parallel leaves the Sasuke one in the dust than how does Kakashi being Obito's rival help his case w/ Gai? Are you saying someone can't have 2 Rivals? 



> Thats just his power and his hax, it was his ability a Uzumaki Fuinjutsu which are shaping up to be the strongest techs in the manga , which allowed him to forever be able to defeat a shinobi in which he marks , Juubito countered it anyways meaning thats when he surpassed Minato's level


This is the most unfair BS i've ever heard of. So if Minato marked Hashirama when he was a baby, than he'd be > Prime Hashirama, just because he could kill him thanks to marking him as a baby. That makes zero sense. Not to mention in this instance Obito was half dead and fighting Madara's control as well.



> -Izuna Uchiha was a MS user who fought evenly with Madara , the MS has given 3 shinobi abilities which shit on most character sans the Hokage


It depend what his MS abilities were and how far he advanced them. MS Sasuke, MS Kakashi, and MS Itachi can still be beaten by these Kages.



> So Onoki just sat on his ass while his army got stomped in the war and did nothing or at least wanted to do anything more than likely there was nothing he can do and it makes sense considering , kishi told us in pt 1 Old Hiruzen was stronger than him,


Who said Onoki never fought Minato? Who said Onoki wasn't busy fighting on other fronts? This is a very lame reason to downgrade Onoki or upgrade Minato.


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## Turrin (Jan 10, 2014)

> Think about it he fought 20 ninjas that had enough power to stage a coup against the second raikage and Tobirama, where does it say they alone beat him down, it specifically said 20 elite soldiers + kin/gin and he still survived


And he died; it's not even stated he put up any kind of good fight, just that he managed to distract them long enough for the rest of his team to escape, which really would not take speedy ninja that long. 

Tsunade blatantly says that Gin/Kin beat Tobirama to near death.



> I tend to look at things differently, I look at which shinobi would win at their absolute strongest , as when kishi highlights certain characters they will always utilize their strongest attacks, I would rather judge how each shinobi would handle Sage Mode seeing as how I just couldn't imagine him having him lose a battle before he reaches SM, he even did so against a enemy who I think is stronger than the Kages , Nagato


Not true; Shinobi do not always use their strongest attacks in every fight. And solely looking a shinobi's strongest form is nonsensical to me when that form takes time to achieve and can ultimately be prevents. So I don't find this argument very persuasive at all.



> Mifune swordskill and CQC abilities are just that hax, rusty hanzo is about as strong as base jiraiya and Mifune was able to defeat him


LOL no it's not. Jiriaya can summon Boss Toads out at the speed of Space-Time, Mifune's sword is not that fast, nor would Mifune not struggle w/ a bunch of Boss Toads attacking him at once, which would give J-man time to use his Jutsu and distance himself from Mifune, at which point it becomes a stomp.

Edo Hanzo may be as strong as Base J-man, but Edo Hanzo would have won that match if he hadn't off'd himself and Mifune wasn't immune to poison. 



> I think it would be foolish not to, in the BD we use feats to come up with hypothetical scenario's in which said shinobi could win, where as in the manga its very very different , lets be real how many fights did you think said shinobi would lose only for them to pull another jutsu out there ass, or for the prohibited favorite to be trolled in battle.


None, I've never been surprised by the outcome of a single fight in the manga.

And i'm not talking about stuff that hasn't been shown, i'm talking about how the author has potrayed the characters and their Jutsu.



> Deidara is the perfect example of this , fans can use his feats to come up with scenario's in which he can fight on par with shinobi that has proven or kishi wants you to think that are stronger than him.


No they can't lol, they just make up fake feats, like him taking on all of team Gai in CQC, when it was just Tenten. Or ignore other aspects of his character like his arrogance that leads to stupidity. 



> Deidara has never shown he loves deidara and went out of his way to embarrass him, Jiraiya received his own arc, where he went against a major villain held his own and was stated as being able to win if he had knowledge , out of all the legendary shinobi , Jiraiya wasn't even brought back as an edo-tensei , even after losing the fight , Obito says actually Jiraiya defeated me , then we find out Tsunade was actually in love with him, he's said to be one of the wealthiest shinobi in the world , Jiraiya's technique sage mode was the main catalyst of defeating Obito the main villain. he's similar to shikamaru and I'll also say Gaara.


Again he stated in an interview he likes Deidara and he's his favorite Edo. You can't argue w/ facts.



> They can pull out J-Man level power I disagree with that , Sage Mode is allowing characters to take on the ten tails beast, Hachibi and Kisame have nothing that could do damage to the ten tails, Kisame was already defeated by base Jiraiya in the manga and I don't really see him having anything to really hurt Jiraiya , he can hide in the toad until he reaches SM then after that its a wrap for Kisame, all that besides kishi loving him


This is ridiculous your comparing SM J-man to the 10-tails. 
Part I Kisame would be defeated by Jiriaya; Part I Kisame hadn't absorbed massive amounts of Bijuu chakra and had 3 years to improve his skills
Underwater Toad is like fish food for Kisame.



> I think Jiraiya has many ways to slow down bee or at least stall to get into sage mode, Toton jutsu,toad shop technique , yoni numa , to be honest a lot his his arsenal revolves around espionage , and jutsu that will allow him to enter SM, although out of all the 3 Bee, Gai, Kisame , I give Bee the best shot because of his speed.


Tonton Jutsu is a completely unknown tech. Yomi Numa should be countered by Raiton and I doubt B is going to stroll into a Toad Shop like those Fodder in the middle of a battle.



> Yeah If Sage Mode is the only way to damage him and this is basically Rikudo's power its safe to say its probably the number one technique in the manga , probably up their with Uzumaki fuijutsu.


And this has to do w/ the 10-tails being weak to it how exactly? You do realize the 10-tails itself is made of natural energy just like SM, right, and that is why SM can damage it in the first place because they are both the same thing, except Juubi's natural energy blows away any currently shown SM's supply.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 10, 2014)

> The difference is I would not say Mei and 4th Kazekage's Triumph cards are as good as Kamui; however B's Hachibi Mode and Kisame Kisamhada mode (when hopped up on Hachibi Chakra) to me are just as good as Kamui; only difference is they can again be used more freely.



I see Kamui being as more lethal as it is an instant kill against most shinobi , I mean it could've taken of Gedo Medzo's head, I don't see how Sick Itachi gets a pass for Susanoo, when Kakashi in this war has more stamina and has been shown to be able to use Kamui more than Itachi was able to use Susanoo, its the double standard because people knock Kakashi for having the same weakness as Sick Itachi had , if you say Bee and Kisame are stronger than Kakashi because this is a stamina argument , you have to say they are also stronger than Sick Itachi.






> Ether that scene can be read as Gai was going to do it all w/ 8th Gate in which case Kakashi was never part of the convo and I've already said perhaps Gai could measure up w/ 8th gate. Or Kakashi and Gai were going to do it together at the cost of both their lives, in which case Gai + Kakashi combined are obviously superior to just B or just Kisame.



I saw it as both of them had the ability to stop the MBD, but both in that scenario would've lost their lives doing so.



> I fail to see how B is a good match up for other Jin, just because he is a Jin himself; it's a similar match up, but it's not like it allows him to specifically counter their abilities in a way no one else could as is the case w/ Kakashi and Obito's Kamui.



Well look at it like Pacific Rim, where the Robot in sync with the human is more equipped to take on the big monster , than the human himself , Hachibi just in sheer size would be a much better matchup for tailed beast, shit Nagato who is stronger than Bee couldn't take on those tailed beast in that fashion , neither could Edo Kages and those are shinobi I say are stronger than Bee, well Kakashi also had to improve his usage and deduce said ability , as he was no match for Obito the first time they encountered each other.




> It's your opinion he caught up; he has yet to prove it to me. Kamui improvements make him closer, but not enough to catch up, I already expressed why. Yes they are bigger improvements, but Kakashi started from a much lower point to begin w/.



Its just a matter of opinion and probably won't be solved until we get a data book on Bee or just more information from the author period.




> Sasuke would have been dead 3 times in the B battle as well. There is plenty Taka can do to stop Kamui; they can simply keep attacking Itachi disrupting his attempts to use Kamui. We've never once seen Kakashi use Kamui on a shinobi while being attacked at the same time. This also assumes Kakashi being weaker than B survive to the point where he can use Kamui and is not forced to waste it defensively leaving himself exposed.



He would've been dead 3 times , but the wounds Kamui would give him even Karin or Juugo couldn't heal , he would defeat them with similar ease, none of them are fast enough or adapt CQC to do any significant damage , and this is Kakashi with improved stamina , SUigestu is weak to ration, bunshin , Rakiri combo would take out Juugo, Karin gets taken out by dogs, or he just sends in a bunshin while he snipes Sasuke's head off



> Just stop; Deva Realm was not more powerful than the other realms combined



Deva would destroy all the paths with C/T or mass S/T 




> I will never accept this as a compelling argument. Yes they are intelligent, no that doesn't mean they will magically pull a strategy out of their ass to win, is a good argument.



It doesn't have to be in a one on one scenario but intelligence often comes into play in a team setting where characters like Kakashi, Itachi, Shikmaru out perform the likes of Gai, and Killer Bee 



> Gai isn't an idiot but he has shown not interest in the position or ability to act as a governing body as the Hokage would have to. Naruto was deemed as equally strong as Kakashi or potentially stronger, yet he was stated to not be ready yet, why do you think that is? Because he didn't have the mental aspect or wisdom to fill the position yet; Gai while not an idiot also lacks these attributes.



Kakashi never expressed interest in becoming Hokage and only accepted the job because Tsunade was Comatose , he's expressed as little interest as Gai, yeah Kakashi was a favorite but Naruto's name was at least brought up in the conversation , in when Jiraiya was talking to Tsunade he only brought up Naruto and Gai, if Gai was equal to Gai in strength they could have at least brought his name up, throughout pt 2 it was a foregone conclusion Naruto and Kakashi as top dogs as being the future of the leaf.

W





> hen did I knock Kakashi. I said he performed better because of match up. Gai also performed better because of match up against Kisame. The difference is that I'm not saying Gai > Killer B because he did better against Kisame as you were trying to imply w/ Kakashi > B & Gai because he did better against Obito.



You just said you would lean towards Gai and reference the fight against Kisame as evidence , when in actuality , Kisame, Gai, Kakashi, Bee all best feasts came due to favorable matchups, shit Minato had a favorable matchup against Obito as well, difference is Obito is still, a more impressive victory on the resume than kisame.




> Kakashi makes it very clear that in that scenario he'd also die, except he wouldn't succeed on his own.



What I meant was Kamui doesn't always = death where it does for Gai




> This doesn't matter at all. There are plenty of characters that get almost zero screen time, but are stronger than heavily featured characters.



Since the Ten Tails Arc we've had Minato, Sasuke, Naruto, Orochimaru,Hashirama,Hiruzen(briefly),Gaara and now Kakashi has entered the fray, only other powerhouses are either dead or are villains , only exception to this is Onoki and he went all out against Madara, 

The rest of the ninja are non-factors to this battle and right now Gai is a non-factor to whats going on



> There is no way the level of earth wall Kakashi has demonstrated is stopping Kisame's Suitons. Additionally you seemed to have missed everything I said as I clearly stated how Kisame could handle Kakashi's MS (and well all of his abilities).



You gave your version of the fight and I gave mines



> Gai isn't a main character like Kakashi, that's why Kakash got more focus, but that has fuck all to do w/ strength. Look at Sakura she is weaker than plenty of characters that are not main ones.



Sakura was said to be stronger than Tsunade and was said as being on her level or surpassing, a majority of characters that are stronger than here are major characters to the series , I mean you could argue the Kage, but Kage is the manga's most important position being Naruto's main goal from the beginning he has to make Kages look strong but funny thing is , as a medical ninja she is a Kage level ninja herself , and the difference is we didn't see the other characters that are minor being told to stay out of fights , its the same as me not wanting my 5 yr old son to cross the street but i would let my 12 yr old, there is a distinct difference between how the characters have been treated throughout the manga, Kakashi gets the fights, he gets the hype, he gets the Hokage seat, he gets to be the leader ext.






> If Naruto parallel leaves the Sasuke one in the dust than how does Kakashi being Obito's rival help his case w/ Gai? Are you saying someone can't have 2 Rivals?



It does help my case that Kakashi/Obito are the rivals and have the same connection as Naruto/Sasuke it hurts your case because you were trying to connect Gai/Kakashi when there is no connection, I would say Gai/Kakashi is similar to Naruto and Kiba , where they both admire Kakashi/Naruto and use that rivalry in their mind to push themselves but Kakashi like Naruto could care less.

Kakashi Gaiden and this entire arc has painted the picture Obito/Kakashi=Naruto/Sasuke just like Nagato/Yahiko , just like Hiruzen/Danzo , just like Hashirama/Madara, just like Orochimaru/Jiraiya ext.



> This is the most unfair BS i've ever heard of. So if Minato marked Hashirama when he was a baby, than he'd be > Prime Hashirama, just because he could kill him thanks to marking him as a baby. That makes zero sense. Not to mention in this instance Obito was half dead and fighting Madara's control as well.



How is it unfair he defeated MS Obito fair and square and the hax of his technique allowed him to defeat Rinnegan Obito fair and square , if baby Minato was able to mark Hashirama, and could at any point in time kill him, then he is the stronger shinobi , yeah but Juubito got rid of that , that was kishi telling Obito finally officially surpassed Minato when he became the Juubi Jin, as that was also the moment when Hashirama admitted he was stronger as well, these are ninja this isn't tekken or street fighter.



> It depend what his MS abilities were and how far he advanced them. MS Sasuke, MS Kakashi, and MS Itachi can still be beaten by these Kages.



He was said as being equal to Madara before he achieved EMS, and Tobirama seemed to be a good deal stronger than him, or at least having his number similar to Hashirama and Madara relationship , Edo Itachi would defeat most of those Kage, Sick Itachi is well SICK ITACHI and dying of illness, MS Sasuke really didn't show a lot of feats with Susanoo and was going blind he wasn't ever really a finished product, but Obito did expect Sasuke to be able to take on the Kages with his Susanoo



> Who said Onoki never fought Minato? Who said Onoki wasn't busy fighting on other fronts? This is a very lame reason to downgrade Onoki or upgrade Minato.



Kishi told us Rock lost the war single handily because of Minato, I'm sure Kages wouldn't sit back and let one man take out his entire country , the manga made it seem like the whole country was helpless against the yellow flash, thats where he earned his hype.


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## Turrin (Jan 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I see Kamui being as more lethal as it is an instant kill against most shinobi , I mean it could've taken of Gedo Medzo's head, I don't see how Sick Itachi gets a pass for Susanoo, when Kakashi in this war has more stamina and has been shown to be able to use Kamui more than Itachi was able to use Susanoo, its the double standard because people knock Kakashi for having the same weakness as Sick Itachi had , if you say Bee and Kisame are stronger than Kakashi because this is a stamina argument , you have to say they are also stronger than Sick Itachi.


Bruv I don't place Sick Itachi up there w/ B or Kisame (hopped up on Hachibi) chakra, so don't accuse me of the double standard. I'd place Edo Itachi up there w/ them, but that is due to Edo perks neutralizing the disadvantages of MS. Just like I'd place Kakashi up there w/ them if he had Edo perks or in this war due to the times when he's had Kyuubi Chakra he's been >= to them as well at certain points.

Could GM's head tank a point blank Bijuu Bomb and Kisamahada would have a field day w/ GM due to his absorption powers. GM by itself has not been extremely impressive to me (Relative to the level were talking about); only when used in conjunction w/ the Jutsu of Rinnegan Wielders has it really been incredibly OP. 



> I saw it as both of them had the ability to stop the MBD, but both in that scenario would've lost their lives doing so.


Gai clearly said Kakashi could not do it by himself. So ether 

A) Gai can do it by himself w/ 8th Gate
B) Gai + Kakashi could do it together w/ 8th Gate + Kakashi maxing out Kamui to the point of death



> Well look at it like Pacific Rim, where the Robot in sync with the human is more equipped to take on the big monster , than the human himself , Hachibi just in sheer size would be a much better matchup for tailed beast, shit Nagato who is stronger than Bee couldn't take on those tailed beast in that fashion , neither could Edo Kages and those are shinobi I say are stronger than Bee


- Naruto did take on a Tailed Beast; Yonbi.
- Most Kages could take on a Tailed Beast w/ varying success. Yondaime Kazekage one of the weaker Kages defeated Shukaku. Sandaime Raikage tied w/ Hachibi and he seems indicated as  weaker in the manga than Nindiame Mizukage and Mu. 



> well Kakashi also had to improve his usage and deduce said ability , as he was no match for Obito the first time they encountered each other.


His connection to Obtio is still a much better representation of success based on circumstances than B's Jinchuuriki powers vs the other Bijuu.



> Its just a matter of opinion and probably won't be solved until we get a data book on Bee or just more information from the author period.


Nah, it probably will be solved once Kakashi gets stronger during the war. Fact of the matter is the current battle is the perfect training ground for Kakashi as every time he uses Kamui he can just be Kyuubi Chakra'd back into the game w/o being hit by MS effects. So he's likely to keep getting better w/ Kamui and his connection w/ Obito could also alot for additional improvements. 

On the other hand poor B has much less opportunities to improve and may actually get weaker or even die from Bijuu Chakra being extracted.



> He would've been dead 3 times , but the wounds Kamui would give him even Karin or Juugo couldn't heal , he would defeat them with similar ease, none of them are fast enough or adapt CQC to do any significant damage , and this is Kakashi with improved stamina , SUigestu is weak to ration, bunshin , Rakiri combo would take out Juugo, Karin gets taken out by dogs, or he just sends in a bunshin while he snipes Sasuke's head off


Kakashi using Kamui already is a more demanding victory than B who was able to take Sasuke down in Base. If we factor Taka in than Kakashi would have to land Kamui despite Karin being able to sense the moment he started gathering Chakra to his Sharingan and warning Sasuke, Juugo, and Suigetsu to interrupt him or block LOS (Sasuke might also be able to see this w/ his Sharingan), which could at worst be accomplished by Suigetsu using Shunshin to throw himself in between Kakashi's LOS and Sasuke; than survive w/ Suika no Jutsu.  If that can't be accomplished (for some reason) and Sasuke is about to die, he'd pull his own Amaterasu out via the same PNJ that allowed him to pull it out against B, when he was about to die. Than you'd have Kakashi and Sasuke killing each other, which is a much worse outcome than B who trolled them and took a vacation.



> Deva would destroy all the paths with C/T or mass S/T


So your talking about a focused Deva; one that Kakashi never fought.



> It doesn't have to be in a one on one scenario but intelligence often comes into play in a team setting where characters like Kakashi, Itachi, Shikmaru out perform the likes of Gai, and Killer Bee


Okay and Killer B & Kisame bring their own boons to Team Settings. I'd say Kisame's ability to give his teammates huge chakra boosts through Samehada and sensing via Kisamahda form is at least as good as the intellect Kakashi brings to the table. In the case of B, B himself may not be able to match wits w/ Kakashi, but Hachibi has demonstrated a high degree of intellect and any gap that still exists can be made up for by Hachibi possessing far greater exp than Kakashi.



> Kakashi never expressed interest in becoming Hokage and only accepted the job because Tsunade was Comatose , he's expressed as little interest as Gai


True, but to me the difference is that Kakashi would clearly become Hokage if asked; I have my doubts that Gai would as again all he cares about is training to become stronger.



> Kakashi was a favorite but Naruto's name was at least brought up in the conversation , in when Jiraiya was talking to Tsunade he only brought up Naruto and Gai, if Gai was equal to Gai in strength they could have at least brought his name up, throughout pt 2 it was a foregone conclusion Naruto and Kakashi as top dogs as being the future of the leaf.


To me Naruto's name was only brought up because he is the MC and his goal has always been Hokage, so he'll always be in the convo. Heck Tsunade considered him a Hokage candidate back in Part I, though obviously he was far off from actually assuming the position. Gai didn't get mentioned because he's not the MC, nor is being Hokage at all been tied to his character; so if he's not a good candidate there is no reason for Kishi to go out of his way and list him. 

Additionally you could say why didn't J-man and Tsunade bring up Danzo as a candidate? Was Danzo weaker than Wind Arc Kakashi as well? Obviously Danzo wasn't a good candidate not because of strength, but due to mind-set, yet Kishi didn't go out of his way to indicate this; same thing w/ Gai. 



> You just said you would lean towards Gai and reference the fight against Kisame as evidence , when in actuality , Kisame, Gai, Kakashi, Bee all best feasts came due to favorable matchups, shit Minato had a favorable matchup against Obito as well, difference is Obito is still, a more impressive victory on the resume than kisame.


When did I say I'd lean towards Gai over Killer B due to his match up against Kisame? I said I'd lean towards Gai over Kakashi, due to 8th Gate. 

Obito > Kisame, but not by that big of a margin imo. To me MS Obito and Kisame (w/ Hachibi chakra) are on the same tier. Kakashi also had more advantages against Obito than Gai had against Kisame, as Kakashi had outside help getting to the point where Obito's abilities were so nullified; Gai did not. If Kakashi fought Obito by himself he would have still lost.



> What I meant was Kamui doesn't always = death where it does for Gai


Gates don't always equal death ether only the max usage (the 8th Gate) does. The same is true of Kamui.



> The rest of the ninja are non-factors to this battle and right now Gai is a non-factor to whats going on


Kakashi has also been a non-factor against things like Madara and Juubiobito. In-fact every characters besides Tobirama, Naruto, Sasuke, Minato, and Hashirama have been nonfactors against Madara and Juubiobito.

Gaara couldn't do shit to stop Madara and Orochimaru/Hiruzen haven't done shit ether; unless were counting the feats of the Tensei as extension of Orochimaru, than okay, but Hiruzen, Kakashi, and Gaara have done nothing that even remotely hindered Madara or Juubiobito.


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## Turrin (Jan 10, 2014)

> You gave your version of the fight and I gave mines


Your version is not based in reality whatsoever though; if you expecting Kakashi level earth walls to block Kisame level Suitons. 



> Sakura was said to be stronger than Tsunade and was said as being on her level or surpassing, a majority of characters that are stronger than here are major characters to the series , I mean you could argue the Kage, but Kage is the manga's most important position being Naruto's main goal from the beginning he has to make Kages look strong but funny thing is , as a medical ninja she is a Kage level ninja herself , and the difference is we didn't see the other characters that are minor being told to stay out of fights , its the same as me not wanting my 5 yr old son to cross the street but i would let my 12 yr old, there is a distinct difference between how the characters have been treated throughout the manga, Kakashi gets the fights, he gets the hype, he gets the Hokage seat, he gets to be the leader ext


Not trying to be a dick, but this argument is terrible imo. Sakura might have gotten stronger finally, but she was fodder throughout Part I and Fodder to most skilled Jonin until this war arc; despite her being a main character. Just because she is strong now doesn't erase that she Kishi gave no shits about making her stronger than support characters previously throughout the manga. Kakashi himself as a main character has been weaker than many support characters and minor villains throughout the manga cannon. I could maybe buy an argument that says by the end of the series Kakashi will be stronger than Gai because he's the main character, but I don't buy that having to be the case currently in the manga.



> It does help my case that Kakashi/Obito are the rivals and have the same connection as Naruto/Sasuke it hurts your case because you were trying to connect Gai/Kakashi when there is no connection, I would say Gai/Kakashi is similar to Naruto and Kiba , where they both admire Kakashi/Naruto and use that rivalry in their mind to push themselves but Kakashi like Naruto could care less.


Dude if your trying to say their isn't a rivalry between Kakashi and Gai, I suggest you re-read the manga, because that doesn't add up w/ their portrayal at all. Kakashi never gave a shit about Obito seeing himself as Kakashi's rival back in the day and in that case Kakashi literally did not give a shit; in the case of Gai he is likely just fronting as he still has gone through w/ 80+ matches w/ Gai, which is not something someone who doesn't care would do. What your failing to understand is that Kakashi and Gai were the ones who were always rivals; Gai even kicked Obito's ass back in the day. Obito was a shitty Chuunin while Kakashi was a Jonin, there was no rivalry their, just Obito wanting to catch up w/ Kakashi and failing to do so; Obito only became a credible rival when he awakened 2-tome during Gaiden, but was quickly "killed" and than never was Kakashi's rival again as he went down a totally different path. Obito could have been the Naruto to Kakashi's Sasuke, but Obito strayed from that path and I sincerely doubt Kakashi see's Obito currently as his rival or visa versa.



> How is it unfair he defeated MS Obito fair and square and the hax of his technique allowed him to defeat Rinnegan Obito fair and square , if baby Minato was able to mark Hashirama, and could at any point in time kill him, then he is the stronger shinobi , yeah but Juubito got rid of that , that was kishi telling Obito finally officially surpassed Minato when he became the Juubi Jin, as that was also the moment when Hashirama admitted he was stronger as well, these are ninja this isn't tekken or street fighter.


Oh come on now 

If Minato tags a baby Hashirama that proves nothing about his strength as it's a baby. Him teleporting and killing an adult Hashirama proves he has a hax Jutsu sure, but it doesn't prove he's a better Ninja than Hashirama; it just proves he's a better Ninja than baby Hashirama lol. 

Plus this completely ignores match ups outside of the direct Obito vs Minato. Obito w/ Edo Jin would out perform Minato drastically against other opponents, so why should we consider Minato the stronger Ninja just because he managed to tag an much weaker Obito. That makes Zero sense and is completely unfair and narrow way to look at things.



> He was said as being equal to Madara before he achieved EMS


Mistranslation; look it up



> and Tobirama seemed to be a good deal stronger than him, or at least having his number similar to Hashirama and Madara relationship


Madara and Hashirama were very close in strength



> Edo Itachi would defeat most of those Kag


So Izuna had Edo Perks which allowed him to us MS w/o drawbacks, unlimited stamina, and Edo regen 

MS Itachi is Sick Itachi and those Kages would beat him. 



> , Sick Itachi is well SICK ITACHI and dying of illness, MS Sasuke really didn't show a lot of feats with Susanoo and was going blind he wasn't ever really a finished product, but Obito did expect Sasuke to be able to take on the Kages with his Susanoo


That's the only Itachi we've seen outside Edo Itachi. Obito thought wrong and it certainly wasn't those Kages. Not saying MS Sasuke couldn't take on certain Kages, but it would be close.

But here I'll level w/ you; Tobirama w/ time to prep his Max Edo Tensei and give them Gojo Explosive Tags (possibly FTG mark them) is probably above those Kages, but the Edo Tobirama we've seen so far is not an entire tier stronger than them.



> Kishi told us Rock lost the war single handily because of Minato, I'm sure Kages wouldn't sit back and let one man take out his entire country , the manga made it seem like the whole country was helpless against the yellow flash, thats where he earned his hype.


They lost the war because Minato destroyed the Supply route during the heaven and earth bridge mission. Onoki was not among those forces as those forces didn't seem to even expect the Yellow Flash to show up; as Mahiro was clearly shocked by the Yellow Flash's appearance. So Minato won the war for them, but in a strategical fashion not that his strength was simply too much for the entire rock nation. 

I consider Living Minato slightly better than Onoki, but not an entire tier better and I see no reason to assume Minato is based on Onoki telling his underlings not to engage him. I mean for fucks sake in this current war Jinton basically got the same hype as the flee on sight order, when the Kage indicate no one but another Jinton users could engage a Jinton user. 

Though I did make some changes to my Tier list (in my sig) based on this convo to better reflect the subtleties of Naruto characters strength; so take a look at it and you'll see my thoughts on everything better


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## SSMG (Jan 10, 2014)

Going by feats guy is easily mid to high kage tier along with killer beew/samehada...
kisame is a safe tier below them.

both killer bee and guy are above the sannin in feats as well.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 10, 2014)

> And he died; it's not even stated he put up any kind of good fight, just that he managed to distract them long enough for the rest of his team to escape, which really would not take speedy ninja that long.
> 
> Tsunade blatantly says that Gin/Kin beat Tobirama to near death.



I mean if he didn't immediately die , he must have been able to put up some type of fight not to be one shotted , besides Gin/Kin would defeat most of the Kages.



> Not true; Shinobi do not always use their strongest attacks in every fight. And solely looking a shinobi's strongest form is nonsensical to me when that form takes time to achieve and can ultimately be prevents. So I don't find this argument very persuasive at all.



Thats always been a knock against Jiraiya to try and downgrade him, like people who favored Itachi over Jiraiya, like kishi would let a character on Jiraiya's level being stomped before he showcases his most powerful jutsu , it hasnt happened one time in a fight unless , kishi is purposefully gimping the other character for the sake of the plot , in most fights in the Naruto manga everyone gets to use their trump card, its how its been since the beginning.




> LOL no it's not. Jiriaya can summon Boss Toads out at the speed of Space-Time, Mifune's sword is not that fast, nor would Mifune not struggle w/ a bunch of Boss Toads attacking him at once, which would give J-man time to use his Jutsu and distance himself from Mifune, at which point it becomes a stomp.



link

link

His reputation is not allowing shinobi to use seals . Hanzo was regarded as one of the strongest ninja's in his Prime says Ninja'a cannot use techniques on Mifune, being a samurai and master of CQC he should be able to accomplish Jiraiya from entering Sage Mode




> Edo Hanzo may be as strong as Base J-man, but Edo Hanzo would have won that match if he hadn't off'd himself and Mifune wasn't immune to poison.



True but Hanzo in general has shown better CQC SKILLS than base Jiraiya




> None, I've never been surprised by the outcome of a single fight in the manga.



Really , come on, I can say 99.9 % of the forums predicted Naruto beating the shit out of Itachi and Nagato except Itachi wankers , most also predicted Obito kicking Minato's ass as even he said himself he saw through my moves.



> And i'm not talking about stuff that hasn't been shown, i'm talking about how the author has potrayed the characters and their Jutsu.





> No they can't lol, they just make up fake feats, like him taking on all of team Gai in CQC, when it was just Tenten. Or ignore other aspects of his character like his arrogance that leads to stupidity.



I don't think they make up feats , they use the feats they've actually been shown in the manga and they twist them to suit their favor , if you say their ignoring stupidity on deidara's part they are ignoring the manga and using their twisted perception and exaggeration of deidara's feats because a lot of times it's acceptable in the BD.




> Again he stated in an interview he likes Deidara and he's his favorite Edo. You can't argue w/ facts.



he said shikamau is his favorite as well, but based on portrayal its obvious he favors Jiraiya above most characters in the manga, he loves deidara so much he had him get fodderized in the war while jiraiya cant even get resurrected  and have his legacy tarnished.



> This is ridiculous your comparing SM J-man to the 10-tails.
> Part I Kisame would be defeated by Jiriaya; Part I Kisame hadn't absorbed massive amounts of Bijuu chakra and had 3 years to improve his skills
> Underwater Toad is like fish food for Kisame.



Who said Kisame's admission of inferiority was conditional , he didn't make it a point to say , hey I haven't absorbed enough chakra to take him on, or if I had enough chakra I could take on the Sannin, Jiraiya took on 4KN in base while holding back , I'm sure he could handle someone of Kisame's caliber.



> Tonton Jutsu is a completely unknown tech. Yomi Numa should be countered by Raiton and I doubt B is going to stroll into a Toad Shop like those Fodder in the middle of a battle.



It is known he used it to spy on girls without being caught , it means he can go completely undetected in battle , really Killer Bee hasn't really shown that degree of intelligence where he couldn't be fooled in battle.



> And this has to do w/ the 10-tails being weak to it how exactly? You do realize the 10-tails itself is made of natural energy just like SM, right, and that is why SM can damage it in the first place because they are both the same thing, except Juubi's natural energy blows away any currently shown SM's supply.



It still shows Jiraiya's trump card is still relevant to the battle while Kisame and Bee's are not.


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## asstonine (Jan 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> How is Kisame an entire tier above Gai , when Gai destroyed him even after he absorbed Hachibi's chakra, and have always been pitted against each other since pt 1,
> 
> Killer Bee with him there is an argument to be made for Mid which is Jiraiya level, although I disagree but high Kage that is Minato, Hashirama, Nagato , EMS Sasuke ext.



He was already drained of chakra for one.
He didn't have his sword.
Gai is a perfect counter to him.

Gai is clearly not at Kisame's level with his sword, and bee is way above them.



SSMG said:


> Going by feats guy is easily mid to high kage tier along with killer beew/samehada...
> kisame is a safe tier below them.
> 
> both killer bee and guy are above the sannin in feats as well.



Gai image.
Gai wanking.

What a shocker...


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## Turrin (Jan 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I mean if he didn't immediately die , he must have been able to put up some type of fight not to be one shotted , besides Gin/Kin would defeat most of the Kages.


He probably did put ups some kind of fight, but that doesn't mean he's close to the entire Kinkaku Squad in strength. I agree that Gin/Kin would defeat most Kages, but if they can beat Tobirama he's obviously not suppose to be typically seen as so far above top Kages like Mu, Onoki, and Nindaime Mizukage where he's an entire tier above them. I mean do you think Gin/Kin are an entire tier above these Kages? Now again perhaps w/ Edo Tensei full prepped in some battles he could be, but not the Tobirama we've seen so far.



> Thats always been a knock against Jiraiya to try and downgrade him, like people who favored Itachi over Jiraiya, like kishi would let a character on Jiraiya's level being stomped before he showcases his most powerful jutsu , it hasnt happened one time in a fight unless , kishi is purposefully gimping the other character for the sake of the plot , in most fights in the Naruto manga everyone gets to use their trump card, its how its been since the beginning.


We've seen matches in the manga where Shinobi are defeated before showing their most powerful Jutsu. Saying J-man's efforts to achieve SM can be disrupted depending on conditions is not the J-man downplay argument. The J-man downplay argument is that a Sick Itachi could decimate Jiriaya w/ Three Tome Sharingan before he reaches SM. 

I'm suggesting characters that I consider a tier stronger than Sick Itachi could potentially stop J-man from reaching SM depending on conditions.



> His reputation is not allowing shinobi to use seals . Hanzo was regarded as one of the strongest ninja's in his Prime says Ninja'a cannot use techniques on Mifune, being a samurai and master of CQC he should be able to accomplish Jiraiya from entering Sage Mode


Jiraiya does not need seals to use Kuchiyose no Jutsu or Rasegan, which would blow through Mifune's Sword. As for Hanzo's hype of Mifune, Hanzo was repeating what he had heard from others as he had no even remembered he fought Mifune at that point. With that said perhaps Mifune is stronger than we think it's hard to judge Mifune's feats as he has only used his Max IAI Speed against Rusty Hanzo whose speed has also never been tested. 

But anyway going off feats at least, Mifune has no where near the feats to support that he could stop J-man from achieving SM. J-man has Jutsu that don't require seals he can use to combat Mifune until he reaches SM.  And here's another thing to consider; Jiriaya can form Seals w/ his feat, which Mifune is not likely to expect.



> True but Hanzo in general has shown better CQC SKILLS than base Jiraiya


That's a hard call Jiraiya has high stats in all the CQC oriented areas; on top of that he can use Barrier: Canopy Method Formation to enhance his ability to detect the enemies movements even further and prevent them from attacking his blind spots. He also has Rasengan (& Raserengan) which out powers any of Mifune's shown feats, especially when slammed into someone w/ J-man's 4.5 in Strength. Than Jiriaya has moves like Food Cart Destroyer to drop Toads on the enemy or just summon out Toads w/o needing hand-seals to aid him in combat. Finally Jiriaya's Toad Flatness — Shadow Manipulation Technique does not require hand-seals just touching the enemies Shadow and it can completely paralyze them and i'm not sure whether or not Kaero Kaero no Jutsu requires hand-seals which turns a person into a Toad w/ a single touch. So Jiraiya has the better CQC feats than Mifune even in Base.



> Really , come on, I can say 99.9 % of the forums predicted Naruto beating the shit out of Itachi and Nagato except Itachi wankers , most also predicted Obito kicking Minato's ass as even he said himself he saw through my moves.


That's events in the fight, not the outcome. Yes I was surprised Naruto didn't before better, but at the end of the day Naruto & B won the fight, which is exactly what I thought was going to happen. I never agreed w/ people saying Obito was going to kick Minato's ass, it never made any sense considering that Minato sealed the Kyuubi, so he couldn't just get ass kicked by Obito.

To me all the fights outcomes are predictable as shit. Sasuke vs Naruto in Part I is the only one that was even questionable for me, but ultimately I never had a chance to really think about the ending as I watched it straight through in the Anime.



> I don't think they make up feats , they use the feats they've actually been shown in the manga and they twist them to suit their favor , if you say their ignoring stupidity on deidara's part they are ignoring the manga and using their twisted perception and exaggeration of deidara's feats because a lot of times it's acceptable in the BD.


Saying Deidara fought all of Team Gai is 100% made up. So some are made up and some are twisted. Agreed on the rest.



> he said shikamau is his favorite as well, but based on portrayal its obvious he favors Jiraiya above most characters in the manga, he loves deidara so much he had him get fodderized in the war while jiraiya cant even get resurrected and have his legacy tarnished.


No it's obvious he favors Shikkamaru thee most as Shikkamaru for how irrelevant he is to the plot gets so much screen time and gets his relevance phoned in so much. 

As for the Deidara thing are you saying that Kishi was lying about loving Deidara? I see no reason for him to lie. 



> Who said Kisame's admission of inferiority was conditional , he didn't make it a point to say , hey I haven't absorbed enough chakra to take him on, or if I had enough chakra I could take on the Sannin, Jiraiya took on 4KN in base while holding back , I'm sure he could handle someone of Kisame's caliber.


I'm not saying Part I Kisame could have won under different conditions; i'm saying Part I Kisame was much weaker and would have been fodderized. The better question is who said that Kisame did not increase in strength since Part I? Kisame is the same general age as Kakashi, who stated he wasn't old enough where he would stop improving. Kisame has shown a clear improvement from Part I as he couldn't even react to and absorb Asuma's Fuuton Blades, yet he casually reacts to and absorbs B's Raiton blades in Part I. We also know Kisame has absorbed a massive amount of chakra since  he made the statement; KN0, Yonbi, Hachibi, and possibly more, which would beef him up.

There is absolutely no reason to assume his strength is identical to Part I.



> It is known he used it to spy on girls without being caught , it means he can go completely undetected in battle , really Killer Bee hasn't really shown that degree of intelligence where he couldn't be fooled in battle.


What lol. You've turned a Jutsu he used to spy on normal girls to basically a Jutsu as good as Mu's Invisibility; that is a massive assumption for an ability that has zero on panel feats or in battle hype. 

Hachibi itself is incredibly intelligence and experience, it's unlikely B will be fooled w/ Hachibi there.



> It still shows Jiraiya's trump card is still relevant to the battle while Kisame and Bee's are not.


And this doesn't matter at all, except against the Juuubi. I mean is Jiriaya stronger than BM Minato, simply because his Senjutsu can damage the Juubi, and his Jutsu can't? Is Jiraiya stronger than Base Hashirama or Madara simply because his Senjutsu can damage the Juubi, and their Jutsu can't?


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## LostSelf (Jan 10, 2014)

The three of them are from Mid-Kage to high-Kage.

Kisame is a chakra stealer with a huge amount of chakra by himself. A giant sphere of water that moves with him and a mode fast enough to kill you while you are being drown. Handy enough to beat tanks like Orochimaru and the almighty Katsuyu via chakra steal.

Killer Bee has Hachibi, that alone puts him on High-Kage level.

And Gai in 6-7 gates is able to beat a good deal of Kage level opponents, and not only low kage, Kisame being one of them. Now adding the eight gate, the most hyped one that would eclipse the other seven, Gai would end up being the strongest of the three. And if not, he is still cemented as Mid to high Kage level.

In my opinion, the three of them are High Kage.


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## Midnight789 (Jan 10, 2014)

asstonine said:


> Killer Bee would own the shit out of Gai, are you kidding me?   He is at least mid kage just in base, and he is a perfect jin!
> 
> Kisame was able to beat him only due to his sword.
> The very sword he lacked when fighting Gai!
> ...



lmao.. as a long time member of this forum. its always nice to see the newbie comments that make absolutely no sense what so ever. 

how about you do more research on Gai, a master who in the three fights he has had with Kisame either took only one page or two to defeat... literally the fights are like this.. Gai opens Gates... Game..  

"Gai needs 7 gates to be Kage"!!!?????!!!!? wtf are you smoking dude. in Base his  is top 5 in speed. top 10 in strength!. he single handily took on Obito in base and almost had him. Gai in the 5th Gate reaches mid Kage level at the very least!!!!. 7th Gate Gai is overkill against most characters in this show...


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## asstonine (Jan 10, 2014)

Midnight789 said:


> lmao.. as a long time member of this forum. its always nice to see the newbie comments that make absolutely no sense what so ever.
> 
> how about you do more research on Gai, a master who in the three fights he has had with Kisame either took only one page or two to defeat... literally the fights are like this.. Gai opens Gates... Game..
> 
> "Gai needs 7 gates to be Kage"!!!?????!!!!? wtf are you smoking dude. in Base his  is top 5 in speed. top 10 in strength!. he single handily took on Obito in base and almost had him. Gai in the 5th Gate reaches mid Kage level at the very least!!!!. 7th Gate Gai is overkill against most characters in this show...



Gai image
Gai wanker

What a shocker....

Sad and pathetic!


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 10, 2014)

Think using generic tiers is easier to understand.
I'm ranking them in the context of how I think they'd do in general against a range of opponents and not each other.

Tier 1
Tier 2
Tier 3
Tier 4
Tier 5
Tier 6

The average "mid" kage level should be in the middle of tier 6 with there being low and high kage also in here. Kisame and Might Guy are on the higher-end of the spectrum.

Tier 5 is for experienced SM Naruto and experienced MS Sasuke, along with people around there level. There's a big enough gap to warrant a separate tier imo.

Tier 4 is where I'd put Killer Bee along with Edo Itachi / KCM Naruto / EMS Sasuke(Kabuto Fight) / SM Kabuto. 

Nagato's at either the top of tier 4 or the bottom of tier 3 but neither tier is defined by him or uses him as the measure.

So Kisame and Might Guy are stronger than most kage/akatsuki imo, but Killer Bee is stronger imo, powerful enough to potentially solo multiple kage-level fighters simultaneously.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 11, 2014)

> Bruv I don't place Sick Itachi up there w/ B or Kisame



I can respect your fairness but you think Kisame is stronger than Sick Itachi, I think he's a lot closer because Itachi was struggling with his illness , but the manga made it very clear that he was the weaker of the pair, but I give Itachi the edge because of knowledge , and also Kisame has shown weakness to genjutsu , I could see Itachi winning the fight before he fused with his sword, Edo Itachi is on another tier than Kisame being able to just spam susanoo would be too much kisame same with a Kakashi being able to spam kamui more than 5 times , those 2 are only held back by low stamina, but if given adequate stamina then their elite ninja skills and brains will allow them to surpass the brutes,

As for Bee like I said , I think how people view him overall is just a matter of opinion until he get a datebook , or a fan book.



> Could GM's head tank a point blank Bijuu Bomb and Kisamahada would have a field day w/ GM due to his absorption powers.



Bee was on the battlefield and against GM and did hardly anything substantial to it , Kisame would be flattened by GM, Obito was using it thats when Kakashi tried to take his head off





> Gai clearly said Kakashi could not do it by himself. So ether
> 
> A) Gai can do it by himself w/ 8th Gate
> B) Gai + Kakashi could do it together w/ 8th Gate + Kakashi maxing out Kamui to the point
> of death



No Gai didn't want Kakashi to do it himself because he would die, they both were saying they could stop it but they would both die if either of them did it



> - Naruto did take on a Tailed Beast; Yonbi.
> - Most Kages could take on a Tailed Beast w/ varying success. Yondaime Kazekage one of the weaker Kages defeated Shukaku. Sandaime Raikage tied w/ Hachibi and he seems indicated as  weaker in the manga than Nindiame Mizukage and Mu.



None of those characters could defeat or fight on par with multiple tailed beast like Hachibi was doing , Yondaime defeated Shukaku in the dessert and being a direct counter to Shukaku with Gold Sand , but what would he do against 2 or 3 of the tailed beast at a time , Sandaime fought evenly with Hachibi but could only truly defeat the beast with amber sealing pot, and like I said he couldn't fight multiple Bijuu as comfortably as Hachibi.







> His connection to Obtio is still a much better representation of success based on circumstances than B's Jinchuuriki powers vs the other Bijuu.



They are the same , Hachibi has the sheer size to be able to combat full tailed beast, while Kakashi has the kamui to battle Obtio, and at the end of the day Kakashi did better anyways than Bee , and if you revered the roles I mean Kakashi can at least put a scratch on a tailed beast while Bee could do nothing to Obtio.



> Nah, it probably will be solved once Kakashi gets stronger during the war. .



I agree then on top of the 99.9% likelihood he gets the other Kamui eye then this aint even a debate about whose stronger , but overall Kakashi being an upper tier shinobi won't really be questioned anymore



> Kakashi using Kamui already is a more demanding victory than B who was able to take Sasuke down in Base.



Its like arguing apples vs oranges, because on one hand a base bee can kill Sasuke but due to circumstances the type of injuries Sasuke sustained could be healed , where as the type of injuries using Kamui would not be able to be healed , so Bee is killing him with less effort , but Kakashi is killing him for good, so while the degree of difficulty is less for Killer Bee, the outcome of the fight  with Kakashi would be  more grave for Sasuke, because he would counter Karin and Juugo being able to heal him



> So your talking about a focused Deva; one that Kakashi never fought.



What I'm saying is overall Kakashi did much better against the Rinnegan and was able to figure out his abilities compared to Bee who got caught up and didn't really show anything to being able to counter Nagato besides doing what Itachi told him to do.



> Okay and Killer B & Kisame bring their own boons to Team Settings. I'd say Kisame's ability to give his teammates huge chakra boosts through Samehada and sensing via Kisamahda form is at least as good as the intellect Kakashi brings to the table. In the case of B, B himself may not be able to match wits w/ Kakashi, but Hachibi has demonstrated a high degree of intellect and any gap that still exists can be made up for by Hachibi possessing far greater exp than Kakashi.



Yeah but Kisame and Bee will never LEAD said group and we saw that with Itachi and Kisame and all of the other atakuski group where the more intelligent of the pair was the leader, the only exception to this are Hashirama and Naruto who are just so OP that you have no choice but to follow them and Naruto after all this time is just now becoming the leader, Bee and Kisame could be very useful in a team setting but they will never be incharged or putting the plan in motion, kisame and Bee are like brutish mercenary types.



> True, but to me the difference is that Kakashi would clearly become Hokage if asked; I have my doubts that Gai would as again all he cares about is training to become stronger.


 

I think both would do the task if you forced their hand and there were no other options its just they asked Kakashi to do it, Gai is loyal to konoha and probably one of its proudest ninja's he would think of it as an honor and would probably do it if it meant protecting his village.




> To me Naruto's name was only brought up because he is the MC and his goal has always been Hokage, so he'll always be in the convo. Heck Tsunade considered him a Hokage candidate back in Part I, though obviously he was far off from actually assuming the position. Gai didn't get mentioned because he's not the MC, nor is being Hokage at all been tied to his character; so if he's not a good candidate there is no reason for Kishi to go out of his way and list him.



No Tsunade said Naruto has the poentital to become Hokage one day she didn't bring him up as a viable candidate in pt 1 , and Jiraiya saw Naruto being able to complete an S-Rank jutsu and took out an atakuski member but still say he's far off, and the village wanted Naruto because he had just taken out Pain, so not until then was he an official candidate, being  Hokage was never tied to Kakashi's destiny either, if Kishi wanted to drive home equality or that Gai is on Kakashi level they could even used Gai's name as a comic relief or they could've specified that he trains to much.




> Additionally you could say why didn't J-man and Tsunade bring up Danzo as a candidate? Was Danzo weaker than Wind Arc Kakashi as well? Obviously Danzo wasn't a good candidate not because of strength, but due to mind-set, yet Kishi didn't go out of his way to indicate this; same thing w/ Gai.



Danzo was a character in the shadows and not really trusted by those in the know Jiraiya has the drop on just about everybody, he knows that Danzo like Orochimaru had their hands in things that they shouldn't have , Tsunade and Jiraiya probably never trusted Danzo , they aren't stupid they know Danzo was always involved in shady affairs and he already has a highly regarded position in the village being the leader of Root unlike Gai



> When did I say I'd lean towards Gai over Killer B due to his match up against Kisame? I said I'd lean towards Gai over Kakashi, due to 8th Gate.



8th Gate has hype but Kakashi has more things that I mentioned above in his favor




> Obito > Kisame, but not by that big of a margin imo. To me MS Obito and Kisame (w/ Hachibi chakra) are on the same tier. Kakashi also had more advantages against Obito than Gai had against Kisame, as Kakashi had outside help getting to the point where Obito's abilities were so nullified; Gai did not. If Kakashi fought Obito by himself he would have still lost.



Obito was much stronger than Kisame and would virtually defeat most shinobi not named Minato just simply because he's able to spam kamui, even with 2 shinobi who had loads of prep and knowledge (Itachi,Konan) still came up short against him, to me Kakashi , Naruto , Bee , Gai all taking Obito on and having a hard time is a testament to his skill, when Kisame basically got his ass kicked across turtle Island by virtually the same crew , of course Kakashi needed extra help because Obito is much stronger than Gai, and it also counters you saying Kakashi had it easier due to Kamui when Obito has senju cells helping him spam the same jutsu , and you cant have it both ways , you cant say Kakashi had it easier against Obito due to kamui, then turn around and say he had it easier because he had back up, to me this tells me Kisame<Obito and the manga has told us this time and time again, Kisame was his minion despite being able to suck up 8 or shit he could've sucked up 9 tails chakra but even if he did he would still take orders from Obito.



> Gates don't always equal death ether only the max usage (the 8th Gate) does. The same is true of Kamui.



I mean 8th gates = death , Kamui doesn't always = death unless kakashi is completely drained on chakra 



> Kakashi has also been a non-factor against things like Madara and Juubiobito. In-fact every characters besides Tobirama, Naruto, Sasuke, Minato, and Hashirama have been nonfactors against Madara and Juubiobito.



The difference is Kakashi had just went all out trying to defeat Obito and is now just reaching the current battlefield so he had an excuse but funny as soon as he's shown up he's still in the middle of things mixing it up with Minato and Obito and Gai is STILL on the sidelines 




> Gaara couldn't do shit to stop Madara and Orochimaru/Hiruzen haven't done shit ether; unless were counting the feats of the Tensei as extension of Orochimaru, than okay, but Hiruzen, Kakashi, and Gaara have done nothing that even remotely hindered Madara or Juubiobito.



Gaara w shukaku just tried to take out Madara alghout they couldn't , Hiruzen sliced thru the Shinju saving Naruto, and at least was shown countering and interacting with Juubito, and Kakashi has just reached the battlefield with his clash with Obito.


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## Shariwin (Jan 11, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Think using generic tiers is easier to understand.
> I'm ranking them in the context of how I think they'd do in general against a range of opponents and not each other.
> 
> Tier 1
> ...



SM naruto is at the bottom?!  ARE YOU FUCKING BEING SERIOUS RIGHT NOW?!
Gai is supposedly above SM NARUTO!?  WTF ARE YOU SMOKING BRO!

Naruto is at easily mid kage in base form! 
Add SM, and he is among the top.


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## Jad (Jan 11, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> SM naruto is at the bottom?!  ARE YOU FUCKING BEING SERIOUS RIGHT NOW?!
> Gai is supposedly above SM NARUTO!?  WTF ARE YOU SMOKING BRO!
> 
> Naruto is at easily mid kage in base form!
> Add SM, and he is among the top.



His saying SM Naruto is on Tier 5 and Gai/Kisame on Tier 6. Meaning SM Naruto is above Gai. Your rage has blinded you.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 11, 2014)

I think you completely misunderstood me.

I put SM Naruto at tier 5 and Kisame/Guy at tier 6. The lower your tier number the more powerful you are, so in other words I placed him above kisame/Guy. 

SM Naruto is stronger than most kage imo, enough so to warrant a different classification, so I don't think were really disagreeing.


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## RBL (Jan 11, 2014)

omg astonnine how many dupes u have created already, just to shit on gai.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 11, 2014)

> Your version is not based in reality whatsoever though; if you expecting Kakashi level earth walls to block Kisame level Suitons.



There are other factors to Kakashi winning the match besides those , he could have Kisame fighting a clone while he snipes his head off in the distance  ect.




> Not trying to be a dick, but this argument is terrible imo. Sakura might have gotten stronger finally, but she was fodder throughout Part I and Fodder to most skilled Jonin until this war arc; despite her being a main character. Just because she is strong now doesn't erase that she Kishi gave no shits about making her stronger than support characters previously throughout the manga. Kakashi himself as a main character has been weaker than many support characters and minor villains throughout the manga cannon. I could maybe buy an argument that says by the end of the series Kakashi will be stronger than Gai because he's the main character, but I don't buy that having to be the case currently in the manga


.

Sakura was a 12 yr old child when the manga started , her character is supposed to be seen as growing theres the difference , just look at the datebook, theres a difference between maxed out characters and characters that are getting stronger, Sakura improves with each datebook, Kakashi has improved through the datebooks, while Gai's stats have been exactly the same 31.5 in each datebook, the support characters that are stronger than Kakashi and Sakura aren't getting stronger over the manga , besides the villains who are major characters themselves , but they characters like the Kage aren't getting stronger , we were supposed to be comparing Kakashi and Sakura , especially Sakura as a finished product not Sakura as a 16 yr old girl, but its common sense that when its al said and done Sakura will be one of the stronger characters in the manga , same with Naruto,Gaara,Sasuke, and its not the she's fodder, as I have made many threads saying how impressive Sakura has bee throughout pt 2 , its just that she's not a combat ninja so her progression will be seen differently.




> Dude if your trying to say their isn't a rivalry between Kakashi and Gai, I suggest you re-read the manga, because that doesn't add up w/ their portrayal at all. Kakashi never gave a shit about Obito seeing himself as Kakashi's rival back in the day and in that case Kakashi literally did not give a shit; in the case of Gai he is likely just fronting as he still has gone through w/ 80+ matches w/ Gai, which is not something someone who doesn't care would do. What your failing to understand is that Kakashi and Gai were the ones who were always rivals; Gai even kicked Obito's ass back in the day. Obito was a shitty Chuunin while Kakashi was a Jonin, there was no rivalry their, just Obito wanting to catch up w/ Kakashi and failing to do so; Obito only became a credible rival when he awakened 2-tome during Gaiden, but was quickly "killed" and than never was Kakashi's rival again as he went down a totally different path. Obito could have been the Naruto to Kakashi's Sasuke, but Obito strayed from that path and I sincerely doubt Kakashi see's Obito currently as his rival or visa versa.



You missed the point of Kakashi Gaiden, and Obito's flashbacks , its highlighted their connection was exactly like naruto/Sasuke , even Kakashi has admitted so himself and he did care about Obito much like Sasuke does Naruto, matter of fact that scene with Gai kicking Obito's ass was just to drive home to the reader that he started of as the loser/underdog like Naruto but thru sheer guts and determination eventually reached and surpassed all of the ninja in his age group but only problem was by the time he did like Naruto, he instead chose to destroy the village instead of protect it like Naruto, Minato was his Pain fight in reverse , Kakashi and Gai have no connect other than being two strong jounin fighters , Gai cant be the Naruto counterpart because as you pointed out he was a genius himself and graduated at 6 yrs old , remember when the chunnin exams started Lee like Gai even though goofy was a top brass student , Naruto was the underdog like Obito, the point of him straying from the path was that out of all the villains in the manga he directly served as a foil for Naruto, Obito represents a Naruto that has the dark path where all the other villains were the Sasuke that took the dark path, but in a way Kakashi represents a Kakashi that if Sasuke stayed in the village 





> If Minato tags a baby Hashirama that proves nothing about his strength as it's a baby. Him teleporting and killing an adult Hashirama proves he has a hax Jutsu sure, but it doesn't prove he's a better Ninja than Hashirama; it just proves he's a better Ninja than baby Hashirama lol.



If Minato can kill Hashirama at any point of the manga with a ninjutsu he learned he's the better ninja 




> Plus this completely ignores match ups outside of the direct Obito vs Minato. Obito w/ Edo Jin would out perform Minato drastically against other opponents, so why should we consider Minato the stronger Ninja just because he managed to tag an much weaker Obito. That makes Zero sense and is completely unfair and narrow way to look at things.



Really , Minato was the GOAT ninja in Jiraiya's eyes , Raikage thought he would be the savior to the world , he was that powerful, I think Minato would give that same crew Obito fought the same type of trouble trying to defeat him, I mean we don't have many people that could even harm the guy in one vs one combat and if you add in his support abilities they are on par with Obito as well, Madara and Obito didn't surpass Minato and Hashirama until the ten tails came into play, I mean Obito with Rinnegan was on the same tier as Minato but he wasn't in another league no way.






> Madara and Hashirama were very close in strength



Really because it seems to me that Hashirama always had the upper hand and was able to defeat Madara without even taking any significant damage and this was Madara with Kurama, Rinnegan, Senju cells , I'm not saying he was fodder to Hashirama but the gap seemed significant to me.




> So Izuna had Edo Perks which allowed him to us MS w/o drawbacks, unlimited stamina, and Edo regen



No he isn't, but Izuna wasn't dying of illness and indicated to have low stamina 




> MS Itachi is Sick Itachi and those Kages would beat him.



Yeah but he's only losing to them because he's sick and using Susanoo would kill him 






> That's the only Itachi we've seen outside Edo Itachi. Obito thought wrong and it certainly wasn't those Kages. Not saying MS Sasuke couldn't take on certain Kages, but it would be close.



Obito as crazy as it sounds is one of the most intelligent knowledgable men in the verse he doesn't make mistakes like that , I never said it wouldn't , but Sasuke and Itachi have huge handicaps working against them , because their strongest jutsu leaves them blind and in Itachi's case will kill him.



> But here I'll level w/ you; Tobirama w/ time to prep his Max Edo Tensei and give them Gojo Explosive Tags (possibly FTG mark them) is probably above those Kages, but the Edo Tobirama we've seen so far is not an entire tier stronger than them.



I can accept that 



> They lost the war because Minato destroyed the Supply route during the heaven and earth bridge mission. Onoki was not among those forces as those forces didn't seem to even expect the Yellow Flash to show up; as Mahiro was clearly shocked by the Yellow Flash's appearance. So Minato won the war for them, but in a strategical fashion not that his strength was simply too much for the entire rock nation.



Yeah buy when you see of an enemy of that caliber gutting your army you wouldn't step in to prevent it especially when you are at WAR



> I consider Living Minato slightly better than Onoki, but not an entire tier better and I see no reason to assume Minato is based on Onoki telling his underlings not to engage him. I mean for fucks sake in this current war Jinton basically got the same hype as the flee on sight order, when the Kage indicate no one but another Jinton users could engage a Jinton user.



Living Minato isn't light yrs out of the stratosphere stronger than onoki but he is on another tier, shika fujin alone is an automatic win against most shinobi, his speed is a problem for most shinobi, and his support abilities allow him to do things at an ease what would cause Onoki to strain, I think If Onoki was at the prime of his life maybe , but he is an old man fighting above his normal capabilities, while Minato was in the absolute prime of his life , they didn't tell them to flee they just said its best another jinton fighter fight him as he would be a better counter to his abilites.




> Though I did make some changes to my Tier list (in my sig) based on this convo to better reflect the subtleties of Naruto characters strength; so take a look at it and you'll see my thoughts on everything better



Tier 1 Agreed

Tier 2 Agreed

Tier 3 I would just change Minato to Living Minato and erase the tier 4 one 

Tier 4 I would reverse Trollkage and Kisame and just combine the 4&5 tier , I'd also put Gaara closer to the top of that tier 

Tier 5 I would put Sakura at the bottom or closer to the bottom of tier 5 for her support , also Konan w Paper Ocean should be someone in the tier 4-5

Tier 6 Agreed


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 11, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Killer Bee is on a different tier then Kisame and Gai. The only reason he lost to Kisame is because Kishi made him into a crazed rapping moron who made poor decisions in that fight. Which is very interesting because when he fought Sasuke he pretty much raped taka a few times over.
> 
> Bee lost because he only used his most powerful chakra attack's which Kisame took advantage of. And again if you look at his fight with taka he was alot more careful and calculating.



Lol Kisame beat killer bee without trying


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 11, 2014)

It's pretty cool how they are all on the same tier and each counter the other . Guy beats Kisame , Kisame beats killer bee , killer bee beats guy


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## Shariwin (Jan 11, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I think you completely misunderstood me.
> 
> I put SM Naruto at tier 5 and Kisame/Guy at tier 6. The lower your tier number the more powerful you are, so in other words I placed him above kisame/Guy.
> 
> SM Naruto is stronger than most kage imo, enough so to warrant a different classification, so I don't think were really disagreeing.



Okay, then I apologize.


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## SSMG (Jan 11, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> It's pretty cool how they are all on the same tier and each counter the other . Guy beats Kisame , Kisame beats killer bee , *killer bee beats guy*



Based off what exactly?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 11, 2014)

Tailed beast ball?

Guy would presumably need the eight gate to deal with a tail beast ball barrage(going off his encounter with the edo jins). Keep in mind guy dies after the eight gate while bee can use those rapid fire bijuudama casually.

Without knowing the eight gates offensive output it is practically impossible to give him the win over bee. I for one doubt it is enough to take bee out.


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## Turrin (Jan 11, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I can respect your fairness but you think Kisame is stronger than Sick Itachi, I think he's a lot closer because Itachi was struggling with his illness , but the manga made it very clear that he was the weaker of the pair, but I give Itachi the edge because of knowledge , and also Kisame has shown weakness to genjutsu , I could see Itachi winning the fight before he fused with his sword, Edo Itachi is on another tier than Kisame being able to just spam susanoo would be too much kisame same with a Kakashi being able to spam kamui more than 5 times , those 2 are only held back by low stamina, but if given adequate stamina then their elite ninja skills and brains will allow them to surpass the brutes,


Itachi was stronger than Kisame when he was alive, but Kisame continued to increase in power after Itachi died. Kisame absorbed a ton of B and Hachibi's chakra after that point and powered up. It's like Kisame himself states during the battle against Killer B:

Kisame: The stronger... my opponent, the stronger I myself become... // 

Considering the Quality and Quantity of Chakra Kisame managed to absorb by the end of the fight, his strength should have increased fairly drastically. So yes I think Post-Hachibi battle Kisame had become stronger than a sick and dying Itachi.

I'll agree w/ you however that characters like Kakashi and Itachi, if they didn't have stamina constrains and other MS related drawbacks (illness in Itachi's case as well), would be stronger than Kisame, but even than not by an entire tier & that's only the case for Edo Itachi. 



> As for Bee like I said , I think how people view him overall is just a matter of opinion until he get a datebook , or a fan book.


I'm not sure how the DB or FB will resolve anything. But of course much of the strength in the Naruto-Manga is a matter of readers opinion. However I think there is good reason to consider B & Post Hachibi battle Kisame to be above Kakashi at this point, even if Kakashi has done a-lot to close some of the gap.



> Bee was on the battlefield and against GM and did hardly anything substantial to it , Kisame would be flattened by GM, off


When B tried to do something Obito put up the Barrier, which was not their when Kakashi made his own attempt.



> Obito was using it thats when Kakashi tried to take his head


Obito wasn't casting Jutsu through it, he was awakening the Juubi, which made GM a immobile target and a much easier target for Kamui.



> No Gai didn't want Kakashi to do it himself because he would die, they both were saying they could stop it but they would both die if either of them did it


Even if we take this interpretation, it still reflects rough equality between Kakashi & Gai. Not Kakashi being stronger.



> None of those characters could defeat or fight on par with multiple tailed beast like Hachibi was doing , Yondaime defeated Shukaku in the dessert and being a direct counter to Shukaku with Gold Sand , but what would he do against 2 or 3 of the tailed beast at a time , Sandaime fought evenly with Hachibi but could only truly defeat the beast with amber sealing pot, and like I said he couldn't fight multiple Bijuu as comfortably as Hachibi.


Of course someone like 4th Kazekage wouldn't do better than B, as he's weaker than B, but he does demonstrated that Kages can take on Tailed Beasts, with varying success. I agree that most Kages aren't beating multiple Tailed Beasts, but when was B successfully beating multiple Bijuu? He seemed stronger than individual Bijuu, but we've seen Kages handle individual Bijuu w/ success relative to their level of strength, so that's not something uniquely possible due to B being a Jinchuuriki. 



> They are the same , Hachibi has the sheer size to be able to combat full tailed beast, while Kakashi has the kamui to battle Obtio, and at the end of the day Kakashi did better anyways than Bee , and if you revered the roles I mean Kakashi can at least put a scratch on a tailed beast while Bee could do nothing to Obtio.


The sheer size was never mentioned or highlighted as a factor which allowed B to be more successful against Bijuu than other Ninja that were relatively the same level as him; Kakashi's Kamui was highlighted as being the key to defeating Obito.



> I agree then on top of the 99.9% likelihood he gets the other Kamui eye then this aint even a debate about whose stronger , but overall Kakashi being an upper tier shinobi won't really be questioned anymore


We'll than if you think Kakashi is going to get that big of a power up I see no reason why he can't currently be weaker than B/Kisame and on par w/ Gai; all it means is that Kakashi's has yet to, but will surpass them by EOS.



> Its like arguing apples vs oranges, because on one hand a base bee can kill Sasuke but due to circumstances the type of injuries Sasuke sustained could be healed , where as the type of injuries using Kamui would not be able to be healed , so Bee is killing him with less effort , but Kakashi is killing him for good, so while the degree of difficulty is less for Killer Bee, the outcome of the fight with Kakashi would be more grave for Sasuke, because he would counter Karin and Juugo being able to heal him


No it's much simpler than that, B was fucking around against Taka the entire time, do you really think that a serious B couldn't kill get passed the other members of Taka to finish Sasuke before he could heal or kill the nearly non-combatant Karin, before she could finish healing Sasuke?

Kakashi serious or otherwise could not beat Taka w/o Kamui and w/ Kamui he'd be expending a-lot more energy than B; if he managed to win, which i'm not sure he would, I tend to think him and Sasuke end up killing each other w/ Kamui & Amaterasu.



> What I'm saying is overall Kakashi did much better against the Rinnegan and was able to figure out his abilities compared to Bee who got caught up and didn't really show anything to being able to counter Nagato besides doing what Itachi told him to do.


I know what your saying, but it makes no sense to compare Deva and Nagato, just because both use a Rinnegan power. That would be like saying Lee fodderized 2 Tome Sasuke, so he performed better against Sharingan than Hashirama who struggled w/ EMS Madara; extreme example, but it illustrates the problem.


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## Turrin (Jan 11, 2014)

> Yeah but Kisame and Bee will never LEAD said group and we saw that with Itachi and Kisame and all of the other atakuski group where the more intelligent of the pair was the leader, the only exception to this are Hashirama and Naruto who are just so OP that you have no choice but to follow them and Naruto after all this time is just now becoming the leader, Bee and Kisame could be very useful in a team setting but they will never be incharged or putting the plan in motion, kisame and Bee are like brutish mercenary types.


I'm sorry but is Ei some genius matching Kakashi and Itachi? Ei leads the entire alliance. So B and Kisame never leading a group is a baseless claim if I've ever saw one.



> I think both would do the task if you forced their hand and there were no other options its just they asked Kakashi to do it, Gai is loyal to konoha and probably one of its proudest ninja's he would think of it as an honor and would probably do it if it meant protecting his village.


If Gai absolutely had to he'd do it, but if Kakashi and Gai are the same strength, but Kakashi has the better mind-set and is more willing to take the position, why even both mentioning Gai, when Kakashi is clearly the better candidate.



> No Tsunade said Naruto has the poentital to become Hokage one day she didn't bring him up as a viable candidate in pt 1 , and Jiraiya saw Naruto being able to complete an S-Rank jutsu and took out an atakuski member but still say he's far off,and the village wanted Naruto because he had just taken out Pain, so not until then was he an official candidate, being Hokage was never tied to Kakashi's destiny either, if Kishi wanted to drive home equality or that Gai is on Kakashi level they could even used Gai's name as a comic relief or they could've specified that he trains to much.


Dude your reading too deeply into Naruto being mentioned. He is the main character and that is why he was mentioned. It would be strange to not mention Naruto during those instances. Again no one said Kishi has to list every possible candidates; he is only going to bring up ones who are relevant to the plot like Kakashi and Naruto.



> Danzo was a character in the shadows and not really trusted by those in the know Jiraiya has the drop on just about everybody, he knows that Danzo like Orochimaru had their hands in things that they shouldn't have , Tsunade and Jiraiya probably never trusted Danzo , they aren't stupid they know Danzo was always involved in shady affairs and he already has a highly regarded position in the village being the leader of Root unlike Gai


So not trusting someone's leadership is a reason to not bring them up as a Hokage candidate; okay, well than I doubt they would trust Gai's leadership ether. For different reasons of course, but still the point remains very valid.



> 8th Gate has hype but Kakashi has more things that I mentioned above in his favor


He doesn't. 8th Gate was hyped to give some one strength above the Hokage, and Kakashi has at best been a back up Hokage candidate; how is that better strength hype?



> Obito was much stronger than Kisame


I disagree w/ this. Obito was stronger than Kisame, but not "much" stronger. Obito would have to touch Kisame to warp him; Kisame can absorb massive amounts of chakra the moment someone touches him. So at the very best Obito would come out of the match having had a near Hachibi V2 quantity of chakra absorbed from him, which should be a shit ton even for Obito. 

However most likely things would not even go that smoothly as Kisame's Chakra Sensing, Mizubushin, and speed underwater would make him very difficult for Obito to even grab in the first place, so he'd end up wasting a considerable amount of chakra fighting a long drawn out battle before hand w/ Kisame and him evading each others Jutsu. 

At the end of the day even Obito should be absolutely exhausted by the time he manages to warp Kisame into Box-Land.



> and would virtually defeat most shinobi not named Minato just simply because he's able to spam kamui, even with 2 shinobi who had loads of prep and knowledge (Itachi,Konan) still came up short against him, to me Kakashi , Naruto , Bee , Gai all taking Obito on and having a hard time is a testament to his skill,


Which is why I consider Obito stronger than Kisame, just not much stronger. 

Kisame was up against his perfect match up and lost (Gai).
Obito was up against his perfect match up and lost (Kakashi).

Kakashi had help beating Obito
Gai had help via B causing Samehada to betray Kisame

Kakashi got more help, but again I agree Obito is stronger than Kisame; just not much stronger than Kisame.



> I mean 8th gates = death , Kamui doesn't always = death unless kakashi is completely drained on chakra


8th Gate is a usage of Gates. Gates don't always mean death, just like Kakashi's Kamui doesn't always mean death. Basically Higher End Gates = Kamui. 



> The difference is Kakashi had just went all out trying to defeat Obito and is now just reaching the current battlefield so he had an excuse but funny as soon as he's shown up he's still in the middle of things mixing it up with Minato and Obito and Gai is STILL on the sidelines


Kakashi is relevant to Obito from a plot perspective that's why. It doesn't change the fact that Kakashi was a non-factor against the same people Gai was a none-factor against. Also just because Gai hasn't gotten panel time in a while is not an excuse to suddenly rate him lower than Kakashi; he could very easily get panel time in the future.



> Gaara w shukaku just tried to take out Madara alghout they couldn't , Hiruzen sliced thru the Shinju saving Naruto, and at least was shown countering and interacting with Juubito, and Kakashi has just reached the battlefield with his clash with Obito.


Did they do anything to these characters, no, okay they were non-factors. Otherwise I can say that Gai was part of the struggle against the Juubi and Madara previously in this fight, and therefore was not a none-factor, even if what he did was ineffectual against them.



> There are other factors to Kakashi winning the match besides those , he could have Kisame fighting a clone while he snipes his head off in the distance ect.


This is at least slightly feasible (the other thing was not and is why I said what I said), however it's still highly unlikely that Kakashi could clone feint Kisame long enough for him to pull this off, when Kisame himself is a sensor. Additionally clone fient in a clear water dome would be quite difficult



> Sakura was a 12 yr old child when the manga started , her character is supposed to be seen as growing theres the difference


You just agreed that Kakashi is still likely to be growing, so I rest my case, that being a MC doesn't mean anything right now.



> You missed the point of Kakashi Gaiden, and Obito's flashbacks , its highlighted their connection was exactly like naruto/Sasuke


It was like Naruto and Sasuke, and than it wasn't anymore as Obito went down a different path than Naruto and Kakashi went down a different path than Sasuke. 



> Gai cant be the Naruto counterpart because as you pointed out he was a genius himself and graduated at 6 yrs old


Gai isn't the Naruto counterpart he is simply a different type of rival. You need to re-read the manga if you think Gai and Kakashi have no other connection than being strong Jonin fighters. Their rivalry is shipped from CE exams arc throughout the entire manga. I'm sorry, but it's not even worth my time discussing this.



> If Minato can kill Hashirama at any point of the manga with a ninjutsu he learned he's the better ninja


Are you trolling...I mean my respect for you as a poster keeps going from high respect when discussing other points to extremely low respect when it comes to this point. This argument is up their w/ thee worst Itachi-fan arguments, don't go there.

There is no way in hell Minato is a better Ninja than someone just because he tags them w/ a FTG seal when they are a baby. Because they are a baby and became a better Ninja since then



> Really , Minato was the GOAT ninja in Jiraiya's eyes , Raikage thought he would be the savior to the world , he was that powerful, I think Minato would give that same crew Obito fought the same type of trouble trying to defeat him, I mean we don't have many people that could even harm the guy in one vs one combat and if you add in his support abilities they are on par with Obito as well, Madara and Obito didn't surpass Minato and Hashirama until the ten tails came into play, I mean Obito with Rinnegan was on the same tier as Minato but he wasn't in another league no way.


Minato would give them trouble simple due to being difficult to hit, in the same way Obito when fighting them gave them trouble due to Kamui. However Minato offensively isn't doing much of anything to a group like that, just like Obito couldn't ether when only using Kamui. However Obito when using the Edo Jins could and I'm also under the impression that Obito's Rinnegan powers were restricted from the point where he started awakening Juubi onwards, as that's the only explanation for why he couldn't use them whatsoever. So he would have been a threat strength wise as well if not focusing on awakening GM at the same time.


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## Turrin (Jan 11, 2014)

> Really because it seems to me that Hashirama always had the upper hand and was able to defeat Madara without even taking any significant damage and this was Madara with Kurama, Rinnegan, Senju cells , I'm not saying he was fodder to Hashirama but the gap seemed significant to me.


Go back and re-read the flashback than. Hashirama and Madara fought for like 24-48 hours straight the first time Hashirama was shown to defeat him and the VOTE was also depicted as an incredibly close battle.



> No he isn't, but Izuna wasn't dying of illness and indicated to have low stamina


Izuna wasn't indicated to be anything, as we haven't seen him fight, yet somehow defeating him is placing someone above some of the strongest Kages; come on bro.



> Yeah but he's only losing to them because he's sick and using Susanoo would kill him


Yeah and where is the proof Izuna is better than Sick Itachi? He has no feats.



> Obito as crazy as it sounds is one of the most intelligent knowledgable men in the verse he doesn't make mistakes like that , I never said it wouldn't , but Sasuke and Itachi have huge handicaps working against them , because their strongest jutsu leaves them blind and in Itachi's case will kill him.


He clearly did make that mistake as Sasuke got owned by the Kages, so I don't know what your talking about. 

Izuna had those same handicaps, unless you have reason to believe his MS was magically different.



> I can accept that


Okay cool.



> Yeah buy when you see of an enemy of that caliber gutting your army you wouldn't step in to prevent it especially when you are at WAR


How the hell would you even do that. The war spanned multiple countries and it's not like leaf was telling Rock that the Yellow Flash was going to be at the Kanabi bridge on XXX-Date. So how would Onoki know to engage the Yellow Flash at that time and exact location? And before that there is nothing that says the two didn't fight.



> Living Minato isn't light yrs out of the stratosphere stronger than onoki but he is on another tier, shika fujin alone is an automatic win against most shinobi, his speed is a problem for most shinobi, and his support abilities allow him to do things at an ease what would cause Onoki to strain, I think If Onoki was at the prime of his life maybe , but he is an old man fighting above his normal capabilities, while Minato was in the absolute prime of his life , they didn't tell them to flee they just said its best another jinton fighter fight him as he would be a better counter to his abilites.


Onoki stopped most a meateor by himself, countered Flower Tree World, and demonstrated he could defeat 5 Susano'o wielding clones while exhaust and  blow away 25 Susano'o wielding clones w/ his Jinton at full power. I do not see Minato's feats as a whole tier better than that. 



> Tier 3 I would just change Minato to Living Minato and erase the tier 4 one


Base Minato really isn't hanging w/ any of those shinobi imo.



> Tier 4 I would reverse Trollkage and Kisame and just combine the 4&5 tier , I'd also put Gaara closer to the top of that tier


Kisame > Troll and if it's a few placements It doesn't matter much. Tier 4 people are a fair bit stronger than Tier 5 people. We could discuss them, but this isn't the time or place to do so (PM if you'd like).



> Tier 5 I would put Sakura at the bottom or closer to the bottom of tier 5 for her support , also Konan w Paper Ocean should be someone in the tier 4-5


I don't like counting Paper Ocean as it's so situational. It's not like SM where it can be achieved on multiple different battlefields, it only works on the one. It's the same reason I don't list Gaara w/ desert.

Sakura will probably increase when she proves to me she can use Byakugo beyond just the seal. I mean you know that I ultimately agree w/ you that Sakura surpassed Tsunade, but I'm just being fair to the fact that she has limited feats and that is merely an opinion at the moment, and I try to stay away from opinion as much as possible....same reason I haven't listed Prime Hanzo, as I feel like he has a-lot of hype, but zero feats to back it up that hype at the moment.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

Tier lists? I guess I will make my own:



*God-Tier*

Kabuto (with Edos), Madara (current W/both eyes), Orochimaru (with Edos), Juubito

*Demi-God Tier*

Hashirama, Madara (EMS), Obito (With 6 Jins), Naruto (BSM), Nagato (healthy), Sasuke (EMS), Minato (Edo)

*High-Kage Tier *

Obito (Rinnengan), Naruto (KM), Kabuto (SM), Mū, Itachi, Ōnoki, *Bee*, 2nd Mizukage, Gaara, *Kisame*

*Kage-Tier *

Orochimaru, Tobirama, Minato (Alive), Sasuke (MS), Ay, 3rd Raikage, Naruto (SM), Jiraiya, Kakashi, Kakazu, *Gai*, Deidara, Sasori, Sasuke (Hebi), Danzo, [Insert 2-7 Jins here], Tsunade

*Low-Kage Tier*

Darui, Hiruzen (old), Yamato, Sakura (current), Kimmimaro (healthy),Mei, Kitsuchi, Naruto (base), Choji (butterfly), Gaara (end of part 1), Kakashi (Part 1)

*High-Jonin Tier *

Granny Chiyo, Hanzo, Hiashi, Neji, Mifune, Lee, Temari, Kabuto (part 1), Choza, Zabuza, Hidan, Kankuro (War), Sai

*Jonin-Tier*

Asuma, Kiba, Kidomaru, Neji (part 1), Sakura (Beggining of Shippuden),  Sasuke (VOTE), Naruto (VOTE), Shikaku, Shikamaru (war), Tayuya, Gaara (part 1), Lee (part 1), F?, Torune, Chojuro 

*Circumstances in for the tier list *

1. This list ranks the characters based on there OVERALL power, someone may be stronger then another in a fight between the two but was ranked lower (ex, Kisame above Gai or Deidara above Sasuke (Hebi))
2. For the most part there is no hype involved 
3. The list goes from strongest to weakest, starting from Kabuto with Edos as the strongest and ending with Chojuro as the weakest (in the list)
4. I tried to avoid too much positions of the same person, only included the most important/drastic versions of characters. 
5. This list takes into account IC mind sets 
6. Summonings included (ex. I put Madara (current) in the position he is in taking into account Kurama (100%) and Gedo Mazu)
7. I did not include anyone who has shown to be below Jonin level as they are not really worth mentioning
8. I could have missed some characters, if I did you can notify me who and I will out them in, taking into the accounts the 7 things above. 
9. This is a list based on my opinion, please don't start bashing just cause you don't agree, just post camly why you think something is wrong and I may or may not change it. 
10. The bolded are the characters from this thread, a way of pointing out that I am still technically on topic.
11. Also, some characters can be basically as strong as as someone above them (this especially applies for the Kage-tier)


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## Jad (Jan 11, 2014)

While I don't agree with some of your tier list placements, namely Gaara, Kakuzu, Kisame and Ay, I think you should put it in your signature. Otherwise your going to let it go to waste.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

Jad said:


> While I don't agree with some of your tier list placements, namely Gaara, Kakuzu, Kisame and Ay, I think you should put it in your signature. Otherwise your going to let it go to waste.



Why don't you think they are placed right? I can change them if you have some valid points. And yeah, I guess I will.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 12, 2014)

> Itachi was stronger than Kisame when he was alive, but Kisame continued to increase in power after Itachi died. Kisame absorbed a ton of B and Hachibi's chakra after that point and powered up. It's like Kisame himself states during the battle against Killer B:
> 
> Kisame: The stronger... my opponent, the stronger I myself become... //



I mean you could say Kisame when fighting a chakra beast like Killer Bee, so the kisame in that fight could've acquired a chakra strong enough to surpass an Itachi but overall I still think Itachi defeats him one vs one and would out perform him against non jinchuriki opponents.



> Considering the Quality and Quantity of Chakra Kisame managed to absorb by the end of the fight, his strength should have increased fairly drastically. So yes I think Post-Hachibi battle Kisame had become stronger than a sick and dying Itachi.



But he still got his ass kicked across turtle island by Gai , I would more say Kisame caught up with Itachi but he didn't become strong enough where he could defeat him in combat, I always say knowledge is power and Itachi knew everything Kisame had in his arsenal , Itachi even when sick and dying is particularly strong because of his uncanny wisdom and knowledge of the shinobi world, thats why he would still be a dangerous foe for someone like Kisame despite not being able to fight at his strongest , if he didn't know anything about Kisame at all then sure. 





> I'll agree w/ you however that characters like Kakashi and Itachi, if they didn't have stamina constrains and other MS related drawbacks (illness in Itachi's case as well), would be stronger than Kisame, but even than not by an entire tier & that's only the case for Edo Itachi.



I don't know spamming Susanoo is the difference between getting your ass kicked to being able to fight powerful enemies and survive , now you have an Itachi with loads of knowledge and the ability to exploit and Edo body to boot.





> 'm not sure how the DB or FB will resolve anything. But of course much of the strength in the Naruto-Manga is a matter of readers opinion. However I think there is good reason to consider B & Post Hachibi battle Kisame to be above Kakashi at this point, even if Kakashi has done a-lot to close some of the gap.



Yeah but the datebook puts the stamp of approval on where a shinobi ranked or supposed to be seen in the manga

32-34 Bee would  probably seen in that Gai, level

35-36 Bee would probably supposed to be seen on tannin level

36+ probably Minato level





> When B tried to do something Obito put up the Barrier, which was not their when Kakashi made his own attempt.



He went for a punch instead of going for an insta kill Bijuudama



> Obito wasn't casting Jutsu through it, he was awakening the Juubi, which made GM a immobile target and a much easier target for Kamui.



Still an impressive feat no doubt



> Even if we take this interpretation, it still reflects rough equality between Kakashi & Gai. Not Kakashi being stronger.



I don't see how it reflects equality when there are shinobi who are stronger than them who wouldn't have been able to stop it, shit I don't see Danzo stopping it , so to see this as Gai=Kakashi then you have to see it as Gai/Kakashi>Danzo.




> Of course someone like 4th Kazekage wouldn't do better than B, as he's weaker than B, but he does demonstrated that Kages can take on Tailed Beasts, with varying success. I agree that most Kages aren't beating multiple Tailed Beasts, but when was B successfully beating multiple Bijuu? He seemed stronger than individual Bijuu, but we've seen Kages handle individual Bijuu w/ success relative to their level of strength, so that's not something uniquely possible due to B being a Jinchuuriki.



also remember you're comparing Kakashi fight tailed beast similar to Killer Bee when he was taking them all on, in that scenario him being Hachibi would hive him a substantial advantage over most shinobi, but in a one on one situation I agree a lot of strong shinobi can take one on but thats not what we're arguing here because he wasn't fighting them one vs one.







> We'll than if you think Kakashi is going to get that big of a power up I see no reason why he can't currently be weaker than B/Kisame and on par w/ Gai; all it means is that Kakashi's has yet to, but will surpass them by EOS.



True , but EOS is a lot closer than you think and with all thats been shown in this war I think he's stronger already but I guess thats just a matter of opinion because no matter where you place them , they are all close in power.




> No it's much simpler than that, B was fucking around against Taka the entire time, do you really think that a serious B couldn't kill get passed the other members of Taka to finish Sasuke before he could heal or kill the nearly non-combatant Karin, before she could finish healing Sasuke?



I don't know he threw a haymaker with TBB and it was countered by Suigestu and as you say if he exerted the same amount of energy in using instant kill moves then he isn't severely injuring Sasuke at a much easier pace than Kakashi.



> Kakashi serious or otherwise could not beat Taka w/o Kamui and w/ Kamui he'd be expending a-lot more energy than B; if he managed to win, which i'm not sure he would, I tend to think him and Sasuke end up killing each other w/ Kamui & Amaterasu.



In that instant Kakashi would actually do better because in that scenario Bee's strongest tech would be countered  by suigestu , they have zero counter to kamui in that scenario, Sasuke was stronger against Kakashi in the Kages Arc and Kakashi still held his own against them and thats when he had stage 4 SUsanoo, without Susanoo he makes too many mistakes to fight Kakashi especially the Kakashi we're talking about using Kamui 5 times, and Sasuke hadn't even mastered how to use Amaterasu's power yet.



> I know what your saying, but it makes no sense to compare Deva and Nagato, just because both use a Rinnegan power. That would be like saying Lee fodderized 2 Tome Sasuke, so he performed better against Sharingan than Hashirama who struggled w/ EMS Madara; extreme example, but it illustrates the problem.


 
so you're comparing the disparity between Deva and Nagato which in actuality the same person using similar abilites, to Sasuke and Madara come on man, and even if we say Nagato was stronger he had Naruto and Itachi as backup who are much stronger than what Kakashi had, and Naruto had already fought Nagato beforehand , and Bee wasn't defeated by a culmination of all of Nagato's ability he was defeated by Preta and Asura realm, to deny Kakashi did better against the Rinnegan is just being stubborn and not willing to give any leeway in the debate.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 12, 2014)

> I'm sorry but is Ei some genius matching Kakashi and Itachi? Ei leads the entire alliance. So B and Kisame never leading a group is a baseless claim if I've ever saw one.



Ei was chose to lead by default because Gaara was too young and the other shinobi had dealing with atakuski in the past, actually Danzo was chose to lead the group but we know how that turned out , and Ei is characterized a bit differently than Kisame and Bee, he's just hot headed , but he is wise and knowledgeable about the shinobi world he's  just a no nonsense type.




> If Gai absolutely had to he'd do it, but if Kakashi and Gai are the same strength, but Kakashi has the better mind-set and is more willing to take the position, why even both mentioning Gai, when Kakashi is clearly the better candidate.



But being  Hokage = protecting the village so why wouldn't the reasons Kakashi was chose be factors that could play out in battle or in a scenario where they must protect the village , and you keep saying he's more willing how do you know that, to me both would have taken the job , but only Kakashi was asked .




> Dude your reading too deeply into Naruto being mentioned. He is the main character and that is why he was mentioned. It would be strange to not mention Naruto during those instances. Again no one said Kishi has to list every possible candidates; he is only going to bring up ones who are relevant to the plot like Kakashi and Naruto.



I'm not talking about by Jiraiya and Tsunade I'm talking about villagers/daimyo he was only a serious candidate after he beat Pain, so it wasn't because he's the main character because no one brought him up after Hiruzen died as a legitimate candidate, he was brought up as a legit candidate because he was one of the strongest in the village , same as Kakashi , because Kakashi would've been brought up after Hiurzen died instead of going to get Tsunade, we know Hokage is about mentality but its mainly about being strong enough to protract ones village.




> So not trusting someone's leadership is a reason to not bring them up as a Hokage candidate; okay, well than I doubt they would trust Gai's leadership ether. For different reasons of course, but still the point remains very valid.


 
But Danzo did eventually become Hokage though, Tsunade and Jiraiya know Danzo better than most , they know he's a shady character, Gai is a loyal shinobi with probably one of the highest character morale in the manga, if they thought he could never be Hokage it would probably be based more around strength than mentality, Tsunade grandfather is basically Narutolite in goofiness and was the GOAT hokage.




> He doesn't. 8th Gate was hyped to give some one strength above the Hokage, and Kakashi has at best been a back up Hokage candidate; how is that better strength hype?



Yeah but Gai would be above Kage level for a moment then die , Kakashi doesn't have to die to fight on a consistent Hokage level




> I disagree w/ this. Obito was stronger than Kisame, but not "much" stronger. Obito would have to touch Kisame to warp him; Kisame can absorb massive amounts of chakra the moment someone touches him. So at the very best Obito would come out of the match having had a near Hachibi V2 quantity of chakra absorbed from him, which should be a shit ton even for Obito.



Kisame wouldn't to be able to even touch Obito and isn't intelligent enough to even come up with a plan to figure it out and Obito knows everything Kisame has in his arsenal not to mention Obito has Mokuton that could suck that chakra right back up.



> However most likely things would not even go that smoothly as Kisame's Chakra Sensing, Mizubushin, and speed underwater would make him very difficult for Obito to even grab in the first place, so he'd end up wasting a considerable amount of chakra fighting a long drawn out battle before hand w/ Kisame and him evading each others Jutsu.


 
Why would Obito "the genius" try to fight Kisame under water , he would just wait for the aggressive brutish Kisame then warp him






> Which is why I consider Obito stronger than Kisame, just not much stronger.



I disagree with that 



> Kisame was up against his perfect match up and lost (Gai).
> Obito was up against his perfect match up and lost (Kakashi).


No Obito was up against Naruto, Bee, Gai and Kakashi and lost 



> Kakashi had help beating Obito
> Gai had help via B causing Samehada to betray Kisame


 I cant even front I laughed out loud man, so you're comparing Bijuu Mode Naruto, Kakashi, Gai , Killer Bee to Gai having B causing Samehada betray kisame , 



> Kakashi got more help, but again I agree Obito is stronger than Kisame; just not much stronger than Kisame.



If you compare the help it should tell you the disparity between the levels of the two shinobi 




> 8th Gate is a usage of Gates. Gates don't always mean death, just like Kakashi's Kamui doesn't always mean death. Basically Higher End Gates = Kamui.



Kamui only means death when he's drained his chakra not the jutsu itself, o Kakashi had senju cells he could spam Kamui all day long , no matter what 8th gates means your going to die , and 7th gates means your going to be strained after battle, Kakashi's struggle aren't because of the jutsu its because of his low chakra



> Kakashi is relevant to Obito from a plot perspective that's why. It doesn't change the fact that Kakashi was a non-factor against the same people Gai was a none-factor against. Also just because Gai hasn't gotten panel time in a while is not an excuse to suddenly rate him lower than Kakashi; he could very easily get panel time in the future.



Yeah but he reason he was a non factor because he wasn't on the battlefield , Gai was there and did nothing, 




> Did they do anything to these characters, no, okay they were non-factors. Otherwise I can say that Gai was part of the struggle against the Juubi and Madara previously in this fight, and therefore was not a none-factor, even if what he did was ineffectual against them.



Gaara w Shukaku just had Madara(revived) buried underneath a sand dessert and almost sealed , Hiruzen sliced thru The  Shinju and saved Naruto, thats more than Gai has done in a long time.







> You just agreed that Kakashi is still likely to be growing, so I rest my case, that being a MC doesn't mean anything right now.



What I meant to say was that your comparing characters that are finished products to characters who have gotten stronger over time, I don't think I argued Kakashi being stronger because he's an MC



> It was like Naruto and Sasuke, and than it wasn't anymore as Obito went down a different path than Naruto and Kakashi went down a different path than Sasuke.



How wasn't it they work as foils for Naruto and Sasuke and what Obito would've been had he walked Naruto's path , the connection was never severed and it has come back full circle.



> Gai isn't the Naruto counterpart he is simply a different type of rival. You need to re-read the manga if you think Gai and Kakashi have no other connection than being strong Jonin fighters. Their rivalry is shipped from CE exams arc throughout the entire manga. I'm sorry, but it's not even worth my time discussing this.



I mean being one of the stronger ninja's in the village and sparring is than a rivalry and a deeper bond, they aren't indicated to have that , I will need to see where their connection was other than that, its just like Kiba sees Naruto as his rival, all the rivalries and counterparts have been emphasized enough throughout this manga ad nauseam




> Are you trolling...I mean my respect for you as a poster keeps going from high respect when discussing other points to extremely low respect when it comes to this point. This argument is up their w/ thee worst Itachi-fan arguments, don't go there.



No you shouldn't go there because I am not even a Minato fan its just stating a point that if Minato was fighting Hashirama or any ninja and was able to mark them and by marking them allowing him to defeat said ninja in the future then he is just a better ninja think about it like this, he couldn't mark Hashirama, he couldn't mark Juubito, Juubito got rid off the mark , and I think characters like BM Naruto, Hashirama, Madara would be very difficult for him to mark, but if said character allows him to mark them and he 



> There is no way in hell Minato is a better Ninja than someone just because he tags them w/ a FTG seal when they are a baby. Because they are a baby and became a better Ninja since then



Minato never tagged a baby though so this analogy doesn't even add up, he tagged a powerful S-Ranked criminal who was a MS/Senju hybrid who also had the 9 tails at his disposal and knowledge on his abilities and ambushed him , thats who he fought so if you're making a correlation to Minato tagging a baby and tagging a legit Kage level ninja then you're the one that is trolling and not me ,

if you don't want to lose in the future by getting tagged, then just don't get tagged , or like Juubito be  able to get rid of the marker, if marking was just auto win cheating then why did kishi have Juubito get rid of the marker , he could've kept it and just kept defending himself against Minato's attacks , Obito became a better shinobi but he still couldn't counter Minato's attack but when he became an even better shinobi w Juubito he was able to counter being tagged.




> Minato would give them trouble simple due to being difficult to hit, in the same way Obito when fighting them gave them trouble due to Kamui. However Minato offensively isn't doing much of anything to a group like that, just like Obito couldn't ether when only using Kamui. However Obito when using the Edo Jins could and I'm also under the impression that Obito's Rinnegan powers were restricted from the point where he started awakening Juubi onwards, as that's the only explanation for why he couldn't use them whatsoever. So he would have been a threat strength wise as well if not focusing on awakening GM at the same time.



I mean Obito didn't really do shit to them offensively either , they ripped through the Edo Jins , and Jins themselves and was pretty much playing tag until Kakashi was able to overcome Kamui, so technically he was unable to kill or really significantly damage any of them , it was just he was so hard to hit that gave them trouble, I was just talking about the Obito with the Rinnegan we saw in the manga fight Naruto and crew, I mean with Shika Fujin he could at least kill one of the shinobi better than what Obito was able to do.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 12, 2014)

> Go back and re-read the flashback than. Hashirama and Madara fought for like 24-48 hours straight the first time Hashirama was shown to defeat him and the VOTE was also depicted as an incredibly close battle.



Another thing to consider is that Hashirama wasn't fighting to kill , even Madara mocks him at VOTE that he wouldn't kill him, but I mean if I beat you 50/50 times then I could say I'm a good deal stronger than you , and VOTE really ended with Hashirama pulled out SM, I mean it wasn't a stomp but Madara really didn't do much significant damage to Hashirama

I





> zuna wasn't indicated to be anything, as we haven't seen him fight, yet somehow defeating him is placing someone above some of the strongest Kages; come on bro.



Izuna was stated by Madara as having the same eyes as Sasuke the eyes that give one a greater perception and predict opponents improvements 



> Yeah and where is the proof Izuna is better than Sick Itachi? He has no feats.



The fact Madara was able to achieve EMS with Izuna's eyes and fighting close battles with Tobirama, but It would be logical to think that a healthy MS user would be as strong if not stronger than a MS user who is sick and dying 



> He clearly did make that mistake as Sasuke got owned by the Kages, so I don't know what your talking about.



The only thing he got wrong was the rate in which Sasuke achieved his Susanoo and in the end he got what he wanted Sasuke to achieve Susanoo



> Izuna had those same handicaps, unless you have reason to believe his MS was magically different.



Sasuke fought 4 Kage , their jounin bodyguards  then a long drawn out battle with Danzo , thats an extreme case for the amount of times you would use MS in a one day span, i mean Madara and Izuna seemed like they spent most of their time fighting each other they certainly thrown into a gauntlet like that.







> How the hell would you even do that. The war spanned multiple countries and it's not like leaf was telling Rock that the Yellow Flash was going to be at the Kanabi bridge on XXX-Date. So how would Onoki know to engage the Yellow Flash at that time and exact location? And before that there is nothing that says the two didn't fight.



[3]

it says they knew before hand not to engage Minato

also even if they did fight encounter each other its obvious who came out the victor.




> Onoki stopped most a meateor by himself, countered Flower Tree World, and demonstrated he could defeat 5 Susano'o wielding clones while exhaust and  blow away 25 Susano'o wielding clones w/ his Jinton at full power. I do not see Minato's feats as a whole tier better than that.



Minato defected a bijuudama from the ten tails with minimal effort , Raikage thought base Minato would never be surpassed , he was also able to use the chakra transfer, Onoki has great feats but Minato also has hype on his side as well via, Raikage, Tsunade, Jiraiya, kakashi ect. 



> Base Minato really isn't hanging w/ any of those shinobi imo.


 
Lets see

Rinnegan Obito we talked about it above and even if you think Rinnegan Obito is stronger he's not a whole tier stronger

Kabuto,Orochimaru , Tobirama I would agree with beaded upon which tensei they revive , EMS Sasuke didn't really show feats beyond what Minato has , and Naruto didn't really surpass Minato until BM, but I would give him the edge with SM, Nagato isn't a whole tier stronger than Minato, he's an immobile target and at best would be taken out via shika fujin , only Kabuto, Orochimaru w certain tensei are guaranteed stronger than Minato, but then again they could even jump up a tier as well.



> Kisame > Troll and if it's a few placements It doesn't matter much. Tier 4 people are a fair bit stronger than Tier 5 people. We could discuss them, but this isn't the time or place to do so (PM if you'd like).



I give Troll the edge for simply being a legendary Kage of the 5 great nations , OK Cool


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## Turrin (Jan 12, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I mean you could say Kisame when fighting a chakra beast like Killer Bee, so the kisame in that fight could've acquired a chakra strong enough to surpass an Itachi but overall I still think Itachi defeats him one vs one and would out perform him against non jinchuriki opponents.


The problem w/ this conclusion is that it's not like the Hachibi chakra suddenly disappeared after the Killer B fight; Kisame still had that chakra. But overall I feel as if were saying the same thing, that Kisame w/ a massive amount of Hachibi Chakra > Sick and Dying Itachi.

As for Itachi defeating him in a fight, I don't see why this is the case. Kisame had a great deal knowledge on Uchiha/Sharingan/MS, whats more he was sensor so he could predict when Itachi is about to use Dojutsu Genjutsu and Amaterasu (heck he can probably straight up absorb Amaterasu given how Madara did the same thing w/ a chakra absorption tech). Furthermore his chakra absorption is perfect for taking on the chakra construct Susano'o. Besides that Itachi has his base abilities, but they aren't overcoming the raw power and regeneration Kisame demonstrated after absorbing Hachibi Chakra.

As for opponents, I'd have to know the opponent in question & I don't really feel like debating Kisame/Itachi vs every higher end character, but obviously I disagree w/ Kisame Post Hachibi battle being inferior against mutual opponents.



> But he still got his ass kicked across turtle island by Gai , I would more say Kisame caught up with Itachi but he didn't become strong enough where he could defeat him in combat, I always say knowledge is power and Itachi knew everything Kisame had in his arsenal , Itachi even when sick and dying is particularly strong because of his uncanny wisdom and knowledge of the shinobi world, thats why he would still be a dangerous foe for someone like Kisame despite not being able to fight at his strongest , if he didn't know anything about Kisame at all then sure.



-Kisame didn't get his ass kicked, Gai went all out to the point where he was exhausted afterwords from Gate Spamming

-As you have agreed Gai was the perfect match up for Kisame 

-Kisame lacked one of his major weapons Samehada and was thus weakened, and could not use his triumph card Kisamhada form.

Considering those factors his loss to Gai is more than excusable and I believe a Sick/Dying Itachi would have performed worse under similar conditions. 

Take away Itachi's  triumph card (Susano'o) and put him up against a Gate Spamming Gai, how well do you think he's going to do? 6th Gate is probably enough to end that match, let alone 7th Gate. Heck even Edo Itachi would probably loose under those conditions. 



> I don't know spamming Susanoo is the difference between getting your ass kicked to being able to fight powerful enemies and survive , now you have an Itachi with loads of knowledge and the ability to exploit and Edo body to boot.


Basically it just means that Itachi can use his triumph cards freely, when before they were heavily restricted and while I certainly consider Itachi's Triumph cards better than Kisame's, a whole tier better is really pushing it, considering Kisame's abilities in Kisamhada form are extremely overwhelming in their own right:

- Kisamehada can't be injured by most attacks in the Naruto world as they will simply be absorbed and in-fact make him stronger.
- Kisamehada can throw around Bijuu Scale Suitons.
- Can cover the entire battlefield in a nigh inescapable Dome of Water, forcing the opponent to fight w/ a massive terrain disadvantage while he is extremely advantage, to the point of being as fast (or faster) than V2 B in the water.
- Only needs to touch the enemy for the briefest of instances to absorb a near B V2 amount of chakra off them, which is basically GG for most shinobi in the verse as very few have chakra near that of V2 B.
- He has sensing to the point where he can easily fight blind enhancing his speed and reactions even further

The guy is absolutely stacked in that form



> Yeah but the datebook puts the stamp of approval on where a shinobi ranked or supposed to be seen in the manga


This is an improper use of the DB. Nowhere in the DB does it say stat totals mean anything or even tabulates stat totals. The stats are suppose to be compared on the bases of category, not totals. You will end up w/ some crazy nonsensical shit if you start comparing stat totals.



> He went for a punch instead of going for an insta kill Bijuudama


And if the punch landed knocking GM down he may have then blasted a Bijudama in it's face. I mean i'm not sure what this is suppose to prove.



> Still an impressive feat no doubt


Impressive in the sense of the size of the object he can warp.



> I don't see how it reflects equality when there are shinobi who are stronger than them who wouldn't have been able to stop it, shit I don't see Danzo stopping it , so to see this as Gai=Kakashi then you have to see it as Gai/Kakashi>Danzo.


If Kishi decides to have both Gai and Kakashi indicate they can stop a certain attack at the cost of their lives; that is certainly an indication of equality, in that instance. Their ability to contend w/ that attack are equal, are they not?

Danzo would not have to stop the attack, he would laugh and Izanagi through it,



> also remember you're comparing Kakashi fight tailed beast similar to Killer Bee when he was taking them all on, in that scenario him being Hachibi would hive him a substantial advantage over most shinobi, but in a one on one situation I agree a lot of strong shinobi can take one on but thats not what we're arguing here because he wasn't fighting them one vs one.


 Killer B was only fairing well when he took the tailed beast on 1v1, he never faired well when taking on multiple, so I don't know what your talking about.



> True , but EOS is a lot closer than you think and with all thats been shown in this war I think he's stronger already but I guess thats just a matter of opinion because no matter where you place them , they are all close in power.


I don't think EOS is very close, it took like 2 years for Obito to be defeated, there is still Madara, Sasuke, Orochimaru, and the Juubi itself left.



> I don't know he threw a haymaker with TBB and it was countered by Suigestu and as you say if he exerted the same amount of energy in using instant kill moves then he isn't severely injuring Sasuke at a much easier pace than Kakashi.


Yes he is, as B's moves don't damage his permanently and don't require as much of his chakra as Kamui does w/ Kakashi.


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## Turrin (Jan 12, 2014)

> In that instant Kakashi would actually do better because in that scenario Bee's strongest tech would be countered by suigestu , they have zero counter to kamui in that scenario, Sasuke was stronger against Kakashi in the Kages Arc and Kakashi still held his own against them and thats when he had stage 4 SUsanoo, without Susanoo he makes too many mistakes to fight Kakashi especially the Kakashi we're talking about using Kamui 5 times, and Sasuke hadn't even mastered how to use Amaterasu's power yet.


Huh!?, B's attack was not countered by Suigetsu. Suigetsu self sacrificed himself to save the other members. Suigetsu could do the same exact thing w/ Kamui as Karin would sense Kakashi gathering chakra to the MS dojutsu and Suigetsu could throw himself in-front of Kakashi's LOS. Again only difference is B is still fine after a TBB, Kakashi has problems after Kamui.

Kakashi held his own against a Sasuke that just came out of fighting Danzo and was on his last limb. 



> so you're comparing the disparity between Deva and Nagato which in actuality the same person using similar abilites, to Sasuke and Madara come on man, and even if we say Nagato was stronger he had Naruto and Itachi as backup who are much stronger than what Kakashi had, and Naruto had already fought Nagato beforehand , and Bee wasn't defeated by a culmination of all of Nagato's ability he was defeated by Preta and Asura realm, to deny Kakashi did better against the Rinnegan is just being stubborn and not willing to give any leeway in the debate.


If we count back up than Killer B's team defeated Nagato, while Kakashi's Team failed to defeat Deva, so they performed worse against a vastly weaker enemy.

Also Nagato used Deva Path and Animal Path to get behind B and blast everyone w/ S-T. Than he used HG Realm to counteract B's Shroud, and than when B attempted to attack him again he used Asura Realm combo'd w/ Animal & Hell Realms providing Duel Vision. Nagato was using all the realm abilities and using them more proficiently than Pain did according to Naruto. So it was like going up against a super Pain Rikudo. 

When Kakashi goes up against a super Pain Rikudo and performs better than B, than we can talk.

Also if we want to just compare Rikudo paths. Killer B beat the entire 1-Tail Jinchuuriki Rikudo by himself (forcing V2), how is that no better than Kakashi w/ back up losing to just Deva & Asura paths?



> Ei was chose to lead by default because Gaara was too young and the other shinobi had dealing with atakuski in the past, actually Danzo was chose to lead the group but we know how that turned out , and Ei is characterized a bit differently than Kisame and Bee, he's just hot headed , but he is wise and knowledgeable about the shinobi world he's just a no nonsense type.


Ei was still chosen, so the idea that you need to be Kakashi/Itachi level in intellect to lead a group is BS. In-fact anyone w/ the rank of Chuunin or above can lead a group and that includes characters like Kiba & Lee. Hell Killer B clearly has lead a group as he is the Sensei of Omoi, Karui, and Samui. So this claim that B and Kisame can't lead still remains completely unsubstantiated to me.

And suddenly Ei is more knowledgeable about the Shinobi world than a B who can get wisdom from a century old Demon or Kisame who has traveled around the globe w/ Akatsuki hunting Jinchuuriki 



> But being Hokage = protecting the village so why wouldn't the reasons Kakashi was chose be factors that could play out in battle or in a scenario where they must protect the village , and you keep saying he's more willing how do you know that, to me both would have taken the job , but only Kakashi was asked .


It's to both protect and lead the village. So if Gai and Kakashi are equal in strength and therefore are equally capable of protecting the village, but Kakashi is way ahead of him in ability to lead the actual village, than the choice is obvious.



> I'm not talking about by Jiraiya and Tsunade I'm talking about villagers/daimyo he was only a serious candidate after he beat Pain, so it wasn't because he's the main character because no one brought him up after Hiruzen died as a legitimate candidate, he was brought up as a legit candidate because he was one of the strongest in the village , same as Kakashi , because Kakashi would've been brought up after Hiurzen died instead of going to get Tsunade, we know Hokage is about mentality but its mainly about being strong enough to protract ones village.


Kakashi wasn't the strongest in the village Naruto was. Kakashi was brought up by the diamyo because he was trained by Minato and had the mindset they were looking for.



> But Danzo did eventually become Hokage though, Tsunade and Jiraiya know Danzo better than most , they know he's a shady character, Gai is a loyal shinobi with probably one of the highest character morale in the manga, if they thought he could never be Hokage it would probably be based more around strength than mentality, Tsunade grandfather is basically Narutolite in goofiness and was the GOAT hokage.


Because he used Koto and no he didn't become Hokage, the Jonin never really voted on it. He kind of became the emergency leader due to Koto.

Again you are holding a double standard here, on one hand Danzo is not a candidate because of his questionable leadership, but than when it comes to Gai, it's all about strength and no leadership qualities are considered. Completely unfair standard your holding Gai to.



> Yeah but Gai would be above Kage level for a moment then die , Kakashi doesn't have to die to fight on a consistent Hokage level


Gai is Kage level even w/o dying. The fact that he can go beyond that w/ dying is still greater raw strength hype than anything Kakashi has.



> Kisame wouldn't to be able to even touch Obito and isn't intelligent enough to even come up with a plan to figure it out and Obito knows everything Kisame has in his arsenal not to mention Obito has Mokuton that could suck that chakra right back up.


- Obito needs to touch Kisame to defeat him w/ Kamui warp, that's the problem.
- I don't know why you underrate Kisame's intelligence so greatly, he was able to enact a plan to infiltrate Kumo and was able to see through Hachibi's plan to save Sabo and Ponta. He's also never acted stupidly in the manga cannon. So why do you consider him so stupid?



> Why would Obito "the genius" try to fight Kisame under water , he would just wait for the aggressive brutish Kisame then warp him


Obito's a genius? Also what choice does he have if Kisame's in the water dome, which moves w/ Kisame.



> I disagree with that


Okay, we'll have to agree to disagree then



> No Obito was up against Naruto, Bee, Gai and Kakashi and lost


Sure, I never said he wasn't up against other people as well. 



> I cant even front I laughed out loud man, so you're comparing Bijuu Mode Naruto, Kakashi, Gai , Killer Bee to Gai having B causing Samehada betray kisame ,


Not at all, I'm comparing the fact that in both cases Kakashi and Gai had help mitigating each characters triumph card. Kakashi himself never defeated Obito when he was outside of Box World, when he was in Box World the help Kakashi recieved was the presence of others mitigating Obito triumph card.

Basically:

Kisame was up against; Yamato, Naruto, B, Gai, Motoi, and Aoba
Obito was up against (w/ Aid): The Alliance

Both made the choice to sacrifice their triumph card to escape this situation and end up fighting Kakashi and Gai 1v1 w/o their triumph card, a duel they both lost.

It not like Kakashi or Gai defeat Obito or Kisame w/ their triumph cards intact, so their is no means for comparison their. It's also not like B, Naruto, and Gai were helping Kakashi during the Box Land duel.



> If you compare the help it should tell you the disparity between the levels of the two shinobi


I don't see a disparity, because Obito was outclassed by the team assembled to fight him, just like Kisame would also be outclassed. Again that's not to say that Obito isn't stronger than Kisame and I think his performance indicates that is indeed the case, however an entire Tier seems a bit much to me. To me it's more like Kisame is at the very bottom of the Tier and Obito is at the very top; essentially Kisame barely qualifies and Obito is just slightly under qualified for the next Tier higher.



> Kamui only means death when he's drained his chakra not the jutsu itself, o Kakashi had senju cells he could spam Kamui all day long , no matter what 8th gates means your going to die , and 7th gates means your going to be strained after battle, Kakashi's struggle aren't because of the jutsu its because of his low chakra


And the Jutsu cause physical strain to Kakashi as well. Being low on chakra does not cause someone to collapse on the ground w/ blood coming out of their eye. Being lower on chakra does no hinder someones movements so they are suddenly unable to react to Sasuke's moves when they were reacting and slightly out pacing him before, as was the case when Kakashi used Kamui against Sasuke.

Both Jutsu have a recoil effect on Kakashi and Gai respectively. Using too much of Kamui or opening too many gates will kill them respectively. It is a very similar process and portrayal of abilities.

As for Senju cells, I would not be surprised if they allowed somone to use 8th Gate w/o dying ether, they are basically Kishi's magic wand in this manga.


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## Turrin (Jan 12, 2014)

> Yeah but he reason he was a non factor because he wasn't on the battlefield , Gai was there and did nothing,


So your saying Kakashi would have been able to do something to Juuuboibto LOL....come on dude this is a lame argument and you know it. Again just because Gai hasn't been featured in a while doesn't mean anything as lost of people aren't featured doing anything to these characters in a while doesn't mean they won't do something in the future or are weaker than character who've gotten focus.

That's like saying Hashirama's or Tobirama are weaker than Gaara because they haven't gotten featured in the last two chapters; it's silly plain and simple.



> Gaara w Shukaku just had Madara(revived) buried underneath a sand dessert and almost sealed , Hiruzen sliced thru The Shinju and saved Naruto, thats more than Gai has done in a long time.


ALMOST SEALED LOLLOL... Madara used a casualy Stage 3 Susano'o and easily broke free.

Sliced through the Shinju LOLLOL, destroying a few minor branches of the Shinju does absolutely nothing to the Shinju. 



> What I meant to say was that your comparing characters that are finished products to characters who have gotten stronger over time, I don't think I argued Kakashi being stronger because he's an MC


Kakashi is not a finished product, he is getting stronger over time; so the comparison is apt.



> How wasn't it they work as foils for Naruto and Sasuke and what Obito would've been had he walked Naruto's path , the connection was never severed and it has come back full circle.


foils is not the same thing, so you, yourself just admitted that they aren't the same.



> I mean being one of the stronger ninja's in the village and sparring is than a rivalry and a deeper bond, they aren't indicated to have that , I will need to see where their connection was other than that, its just like Kiba sees Naruto as his rival, all the rivalries and counterparts have been emphasized enough throughout this manga ad nauseam


Yes they are re-read the manga, if you think that Gai isn't Kakashi's rival. Naruto is not accepting 84 matches w/ Kiba.



> No you shouldn't go there because I am not even a Minato fan its just stating a point that if Minato was fighting Hashirama or any ninja and was able to mark them and by marking them allowing him to defeat said ninja in the future then he is just a better ninja think about it like this, he couldn't mark Hashirama, he couldn't mark Juubito, Juubito got rid off the mark , and I think characters like BM Naruto, Hashirama, Madara would be very difficult for him to mark, but if said character allows him to mark them and he


He's not fighting them and marking them. He's marking a baby w/ not fight and you are still saying that makes him a better Ninja. That Makes no sense, and i'm sorry to say is just as bad as any Minato-fanboy argument i've ever seen.



> Minato never tagged a baby though so this analogy doesn't even add up,


No the example holds up just fine. A Baby offers no resistance because they haven't trained to reach a certain level. Obito also offered less resistance to being tag than he would if he fought Minato w/ Rinnegan and Edo Jinchuuriki, because at the time he was less powerful than he was once obtaining Rinnegan. And that's the problem, your saying that no matter how strong a shinobi became, it doesn't matter they are still inferior to Minato just because he tagged them when they are weaker, but neglect to consider whether he'd be able to tag them now that they are stronger. It's the same thing as tagging a helpless baby, because it neglects to consider whether he'd be able to tag that same baby after it was trained up until his prime, increasing it's Ninja skill many fold.



> I mean Obito didn't really do shit to them offensively either , they ripped through the Edo Jins , and Jins themselves and was pretty much playing tag until Kakashi was able to overcome Kamui, so technically he was unable to kill or really significantly damage any of them , it was just he was so hard to hit that gave them trouble, I was just talking about the Obito with the Rinnegan we saw in the manga fight Naruto and crew, I mean with Shika Fujin he could at least kill one of the shinobi better than what Obito was able to do.


Yes, which is why that Team is not the best example as they are overwhelmingly stronger than Rinnegan Obito, MS Obito, and Minato. However against other opponents you would see the difference much more starkly. 

Minato beat an MS Obito; but the manga indicates it was close, decided by a split second difference in speed. Now it's 16 years later and Obito has acquired more experience, better weaponry, Rinnegan, Edo Jinchuuriki, etc... on top of what he already had. I do not see how you can think that w/ all that he didn't surpass Minato when the gap before was small.

Minato might be able to kill one if he was willing to die, but guess what Obito never was willing to die to kill someone, so that is a false equivalency; hell Obito was never even going all out as he was focusing his Rinnegan powers on awakening GM. 



> Another thing to consider is that Hashirama wasn't fighting to kill , even Madara mocks him at VOTE that he wouldn't kill him, but I mean if I beat you 50/50 times then I could say I'm a good deal stronger than you , and VOTE really ended with Hashirama pulled out SM, I mean it wasn't a stomp but Madara really didn't do much significant damage to Hashirama


No you couldn't. If the match is close, you could not say you are good deal stronger than me just because you managed to barely win every time. Hashirama was willing to kill Madara in the VOTE and that match was still incredibly close. 



> Izuna was stated by Madara as having the same eyes as Sasuke the eyes that give one a greater perception and predict opponents improvements


Okay and that proves what exactly? Suddenly having better movements means he's automatically stronger than top Kages? Again once Izuna gets feats, than I'll be able to evaluate how much Tobirama's feat of beating him is suppose to push him up the power scale. And who knows maybe Tobirama was fully prepped w/ his max Edos at the time he defeated Izuna.



> The fact Madara was able to achieve EMS with Izuna's eyes and fighting close battles with Tobirama, but It would be logical to think that a healthy MS user would be as strong if not stronger than a MS user who is sick and dying


So were using the fact that Izuna fought w/ Tobirama, to prove Izuna's strength, which than we're using to substantiate Tobirama's strength.... that's some serious circular logic if i've ever seen it.

What does Madara achieving EMS have to do w/ anything? 

And no it's not a logical that a healthy MS user would certainly be stronger than a sick MS user, because that neglects the skill of the user entirely.



> The only thing he got wrong was the rate in which Sasuke achieved his Susanoo and in the end he got what he wanted Sasuke to achieve Susanoo


So your saying if Sasuke had a Stage 4 Susano'o he be able to defeat all 5 Gokage LOL. 

Come on dude Obito massive underestimated the Gokage and overestimated Sasuke. And it's not the first time, remember when he personal vuaged for team taka capturing Killer B; yeah how did that go for him.



> Sasuke fought 4 Kage , their jounin bodyguards then a long drawn out battle with Danzo , thats an extreme case for the amount of times you would use MS in a one day span, i mean Madara and Izuna seemed like they spent most of their time fighting each other they certainly thrown into a gauntlet like that.


How do we know? Madara fought Hashirama for 48 hours straight one time, what were Izuna and Tobirama doing during that time, just kicking back w/ pop corn?

Again the problem boils down to we don't know enough about Izuna to make the assumptions your trying to.



> sharingan
> 
> it says they knew before hand not to engage Minato
> 
> also even if they did fight encounter each other its obvious who came out the victor.


Yes they knew before hand to run from the Yellow Flash, but they didn't know the Yellow Flash was going to show up at the Kanabi bridge, that's why Mahiro himself was surprised to see the Yellow Flash there. 

Konoha came out the victor because of a strategy they used, not raw might. So yes the victor is obvious, but not because Minato could bitch slap Onoki.



> Minato defected a bijuudama from the ten tails with minimal effort , Raikage thought base Minato would never be surpassed , he was also able to use the chakra transfer, Onoki has great feats but Minato also has hype on his side as well via, Raikage, Tsunade, Jiraiya, kakashi ect.


If you want to talk hype than Onoki is hyped as unbeatable except by another Jinton user. Hype is nonsensical in certain regards in this manga, it's just suppose to tell you how strong someone is. 

Yes Minato's FTG teleporting feats are great, which is why I consider him stronger than Onoki, but a whole tier stronger than the man who can lift Turtle island and destroy 25 Susano'o. I'm sorry, but there's nothing that indicates that for me. The people who are a whole tier stronger than that level are those who possess high order Rikudo powers, that's it. 



> Rinnegan Obito we talked about it above and even if you think Rinnegan Obito is stronger he's not a whole tier stronger


He's a whole Tier stronger. The dude was close to Minato, back when he was much younger and didn't have Madara's War Fan, GM, Rinnegan, 7 Bijuu, and Edo Jinchuuriki Rikudo; those things make the difference of a tier.



> Kabuto,Orochimaru , Tobirama I would agree with beaded upon which tensei they revive , EMS Sasuke didn't really show feats beyond what Minato has , and Naruto didn't really surpass Minato until BM, but I would give him the edge with SM, Nagato isn't a whole tier stronger than Minato, he's an immobile target and at best would be taken out via shika fujin , only Kabuto, Orochimaru w certain tensei are guaranteed stronger than Minato, but then again they could even jump up a tier as well.


The Naruto I listed is one who can combined KCM&SM, you don't think that makes him a Tier stronger than Minato? Personally I think SM Naruto alone could contend w/ Minato, the problem being that SM would run out, but Naruto can use KCM to compensate when that happens here and the combo of KCM+SM would give him power well above that of Minato.


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## Blaze Release (Jan 13, 2014)

Firstly what is canon is that kisame > Bee. Gai > Kisame.
Bee > Gai isn't canon, but majority will agree that Bee beats Gai more times than not.

Anyway all 3 have their advantages and disadvantages over the other and while i believe abilities might have played a part in the two canon fights, if all parties were unrestricted, even if their abilities leave them at a disadvantage they may very well prevail.

Kisame vs Bee. Bee had two disadvantages. Not going full hachibi mode limited his strongest technique the bijuu dama. He also had Sabu and his raccoon to protect. But even with these disadvantage's i still favour kisame more times than not. All of bee's technique's and lesser transformations forms has been canonically countered and rendered futile, his only option unrestricted would have been the dama. But at the same time, we do not know just how effective kisame's daikōdan would have been. What exactly is its limitations, just ow much chakra can it absorb?. Perhaps Bee being restricted from going full hachibi mode and using the dama turned out to be a blessing in disguise as kisame would have most likely resorted to the daikōdan. While Bee has shown to tank his own dama, just how strong the daikōdan would have made the dama is unknown and whether bee would have managed to tank it.

I still give Kisame the edge over bee with both unrestricted. Majority of what Bee has already dished out at kisame canonically didn't work and was flat out being dominated. What could have worked the dama, we don't exactly know how effective it would be when kisame also holds an ace up his sleeve, perhaps even the perfect counter for the dama in the form of the Daikōdan. In this case kisame's hype for being the a very good jinchrucki hunter says it all. The advantages he has over Bee is far too great for bee, if we assume bee to be the slightly stronger opponent to come out on top regardless of this fight being a bad match up for him.

Gai vs Kisame is an interesting one, especially the pattern that Kishi seems to follow. The two fights that has taken place between the two, Gai won. However on both scenario's Gai's win were not convincing, even though he had the abilities advantage. For starters, in the first fight he fought a clone containing 30% of kisame's chakra. This meant that, the level of ninjutsu that we know kisame can produce was limited, yes even with 30% chakra he can transform the battlefield to suit him, but not as much as a full powered kisame. This version of kisame alone warranted Gai to show us his strongest form and use the 6th gate and this was not even a half powered kisame, nor a fused one.

Their second fight, again Kisame was not at full strength. Apart from being severely weakened, he did manage to absorb abit of chakra. However kisame's reserves and the amount of chakra he managed to absorb was no where near what a 100% kisame would have been. Secondly his sword was taken away from him. Kishi taking away a swordsman sword away from him says it all really, (kisame is one of the swordsmen of the mist after all), also played a part. There is firstly this myth that samahada can only absorb chakra on the outside, yet it managed to absorb bee's chakra on the turtle island. So samahada an absorb chakra whether on the inside or out. But more importantly is the fusion that samahada offers Kisame, that he didn't have. Increase in strength, speed, durability, sensing, chakra. Gai needed again his strongest form to defeat this version of Kisame.

In both fights even with Gai holding this supposed advantage due to abilities, it still wasn't enough as Kisame was weakened/restricted one way or another. We have yet to see Gai tackle an 100% Kisame with samahada, especially when fused and i fear even with the advantages that Gai has, he would lose to this version of Kisame, perhaps that is the reason why we have seen one party at his strongest, yet the other never at his best.

For me if all are unrestricted it would be Kisame> Bee > Gai. Most of the time. Gai being the weakest out of the three from portrayal, feats and hype.

Outside the little triangle they have formed, i believe Bee may be slightly stronger than Kisame, but not enough to put him in a different tier whatever this tier may be. So Bee and Kisame belong in the same tier. Gai a tier below


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## Skaddix (Jan 15, 2014)

Not really the fight basically proceeds as it did except Bee does not let Samehada crawl back in for a heal. Instead he tosses a pencil through Kisame's Head killing him there. Fight OVer


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## Jad (Jan 15, 2014)

*Spoiler*: _661 Chapter Spoilers_ 



Guy's, Bee lost his Bijuu...  his dropped in the power scale


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 17, 2014)

Ablaze said:


> Gai vs Kisame is an interesting one, especially the pattern that Kishi seems to follow. The two fights that has taken place between the two, Gai won. However on both scenario's Gai's win were not convincing, even though he had the abilities advantage. For starters, in the first fight he fought a clone containing 30% of kisame's chakra. This meant that, the level of ninjutsu that we know kisame can produce was limited, yes even with 30% chakra he can transform the battlefield to suit him, but not as much as a full powered kisame. This version of kisame alone warranted Gai to show us his strongest form and use the 6th gate and this was not even a half powered kisame, nor a fused one.
> 
> Their second fight, again Kisame was not at full strength. Apart from being severely weakened, he did manage to absorb abit of chakra. However kisame's reserves and the amount of chakra he managed to absorb was no where near what a 100% kisame would have been. Secondly his sword was taken away from him. Kishi taking away a swordsman sword away from him says it all really, (kisame is one of the swordsmen of the mist after all), also played a part. There is firstly this myth that samahada can only absorb chakra on the outside, yet it managed to absorb bee's chakra on the turtle island. So samahada an absorb chakra whether on the inside or out. But more importantly is the fusion that samahada offers Kisame, that he didn't have. Increase in strength, speed, durability, sensing, chakra. Gai needed again his strongest form to defeat this version of Kisame.
> 
> ...



I think that Kisame fused with samehada would require Gai to open the 8th gate to kill him but then end up dying.. So a fight with both of them at full power would end up in a draw


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