# Majin Dark Schneider vs Flash (Wally West)



## Majinsaga (Jun 18, 2013)

vs



Location:

An unknown solar system



If it's a stomp for either then a mod can close this thread.


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## shade0180 (Jun 18, 2013)

Speed force dump? How fast is majin Dark Schneider?


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## Majinsaga (Jun 18, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Speed force dump? How fast is majin Dark Schneider?



Most calcs have him at 7,000x FTL. Maybe much faster, but it's in the high thousands range.


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## MAPSK (Jun 18, 2013)

Not even millions of times the speed of light, if I recall. Flash does what he does best. Maybe if Speed Force dump and time travel were banned this would be fair, but Wally just has too much hax for Darsh to win with his speed.


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## trance (Jun 18, 2013)

IIRC, all Wally needs to do is touch and he can Speed Force dump them. Idk though...


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 18, 2013)

7000 x c vs 13 trillion x c unamped Wally .


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## ikoke (Jun 19, 2013)

I know nothing about the Flash,so I am not going to comment on the result of this battle;but does Flash need to touch DS to perform speed force dump ?

Because,DS happens to have a very nifty set of thousands (maybe plenty more) of barriers that need to be destroyed/ rewritten before he can be touched,and he can regenerate these barriers millions of times/second.


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

The Flash doesn't need to touch to amp something with the Speedforce. When he throws rocks at people not only does he throws them at high speeds but he can amp them midflight if he wants. And IIRC Speedforce dump is just amping himself and the person into the speed force. 

Also barriers is shit to a guy who is interdimensional.


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## Ramius (Jun 19, 2013)

Ehhhh? What's the strongest character durability-wise Flash's vibrations and what else worked against? Because DS is pretty damn durable.


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## shade0180 (Jun 19, 2013)

He pulled out Spectre from its own dimension to the dimension where flash is...  The strongest Hit he made would be the White Martiian Zum as always.  Infinite Mass Punch. Where his mass is converted/change to striking force or something....


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## November (Jun 19, 2013)

Flash take this


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 19, 2013)

I don't read comics.

However?  I'm kind of getting the distinct feeling the flash is getting the living shit wanked out of him here.

>DS has fought and defeated pre-crisis supes, regardless of whatever speed advantage the fucker has
>Pre-crisis supes should be well above the flash to my limited knowledge from lurking and shit

Barring someone telling me that A>B>C logic doesn't work in this particular case?

I'm kind not seeing how you fuckers draw the conclusions you do.


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## Boomy (Jun 19, 2013)

Someone have scan with Flash speedforce dumping WITHOUT physical contact? Since claim that it will bypass all Dispel Bound barriers is kind of high.


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## OtherGalaxy (Jun 19, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> *He pulled out Spectre from its own dimension to the dimension where flash is*...  The strongest Hit he made would be the White Martiian Zum as always.  Infinite Mass Punch. Where his mass is converted/change to striking force or something....



Still wondering how that isn't a blatant outlier (although apparently it...never actually happened or something?)

Wouldn't that be pretty much the equivalent of (for example's sake) someone in Marvel pulling the LT out, which is...not gonna happen obviously.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 19, 2013)

Actually, here's a question for you chuckle fucks?

What's the highest amount of energy Flash has leeched off a fucker through the speed force?

After all, there's an obvious limit to an ability that should clearly make the fucker nigh unbeatable if he could bleed off all the kinetic energy of fuckers far more powerful than him.

And yet... he's considered a fucking herald.

He has the power to leech kinetic energy off fuckers and make them nearly frozen in time... and he's only considered a fucking herald.

Gee, surely his powers and abilities aren't being embellished in the slightest.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

PIS off Flash would beat any herald




> He pulled out Spectre from its own dimension to the dimension where flash is...


do you mean KC ? I was under the impression that was not the Spectre 






> >DS has fought and defeated pre-crisis supes, regardless of whatever speed advantage the fucker has
> >Pre-crisis supes should be well above the flash to my limited knowledge from lurking and shit


as I recall that victory was because of Silver Age Supermans *massive* weakness to magic

and even then I'm not sure why PC can't blitz + blast him from afar .. though IIRC DS needs to be killed on 3 levels simultaneously or something and PC may not be able to do that


and PC Superman vs Flash is another can of worms .. some think that Flash wins there .. he has actually beaten on Superboy Prime - another pre-crisis kryptonian, though I personally disagree with scaling SBP from pre-crisis Supermans every feat


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 19, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> as I recall that victory was because of Silver Age Supermans *massive* weakness to magic



Why would that have been required?

Barring Supes of that era regularly tanking shit from fuckers that can fuck up the milky way... not seeing why the weakness even matters.

That and haxes like Judas Priest (an incredibly potent soul hax that kills you on the 3 levels required to overcome eternal atoms in Bastard!!) may or may not be incredibly useful as well... fuck if I know though.



> and even then I'm not sure why PC can't blitz + blast him from afar ..



You mean like drag him to a secluded part of space?

Wouldn't know.

If you mean actually hurting him?  Wiki lists him as multi solar system... though most comic profiles seem to blatantly lie about their actual standing by horrendously lowballing their stats.

So sure as fuck not trusting what I read there.



> though IIRC DS needs to be killed on 3 levels simultaneously or something and PC may not be able to do that



Yep, and wouldn't know.



> and PC Superman vs Flash is another can of worms .. some think that Flash wins there .. he has actually beaten on Superboy Prime - another pre-crisis kryptonian, though I personally disagree with scaling SBP from pre-crisis Supermans every feat



Shouldn't be too difficult to peg an upper bound on how effective flash's hax is, especially shit like robbing a fucker of kinetic energy.

If he can't handle the energy he's siphoning, you can't honestly claim he can freeze them in time.

Though his other hax is a big "fuck if I know" given I don't know or read anything about him.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

- blog about speed steal (also in comments)



though his SF dimension dump BFR shouldn't be reliant on how much energy he can handle .. don't know if he needs physical contact for that or not (i'd say he does)


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## willyvereb (Jun 19, 2013)

Unless we take the Flash pulling the Spectre at face value, the BFR shouldn't work since Darsh already has resistance to it.
Same with time travel.
As the Adam of Darkness, DS has neither a beginning or end.
His  Dispel Bound users also exist on 3 planes at once so unless the Flash  can effect somebody on both physical, astral and spiritual planes, DS  can just regenerate.
This would likely apply to BFR scenarios, as well.
Even if DS's body disappears, he could just remake it from the astral and spiritual planes.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> He pulled out Spectre from its own dimension to the dimension where flash is... :



1. that was elseworlds, non-canon
2. he didn't pull the spectre anywhere
3. the spectre doesn't have his own dimension


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

god damn, the next time i see some fuck claim regular flash "pulled the spectre out of his own realm", i am negging them


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## Erudite Ape (Jun 19, 2013)

Majinsaga said:


> Most calcs have him at 7,000x FTL. Maybe much faster, but it's in the high thousands range.


7000c? .


ChaosTheory123 said:


> I don't read comics.
> 
> However?  I'm kind of getting the distinct feeling the flash is getting the living shit wanked out of him here.


This second sentance makes the first highly redundant, but okay.


> >DS has fought and defeated pre-crisis supes, regardless of whatever speed advantage the fucker has
> >Pre-crisis supes should be well above the flash to my limited knowledge from lurking and shit


So Bastard and DC are in the same continuity?

Also, Emoboy Prime is crying about something. I think it was about speedsters and you ignoring him, although it was hard to make out over the poorly-articulated death threats and how everything was better on his earth.


> Barring someone telling me that A>B>C logic doesn't work in this particular case?


It doesn't. Especially with Supe's weakness, but it really doesn't anyways.


> I'm kind not seeing how you fuckers draw the conclusions you do.





ChaosTheory123 said:


> I don't read comics.





ChaosTheory123 said:


> Actually, here's a question for you chuckle fucks?
> 
> What's the highest amount of energy Flash has leeched off a fucker through the speed force?


People going much, much faster than Darsh, including Inertia. Now can you provide any resistance feats for Darsh?


> After all, there's an obvious limit to an ability that should clearly make the fucker nigh unbeatable if he could bleed off all the kinetic energy of fuckers far more powerful than him.





> And yet... he's considered a fucking herald.


Actually, he's often considered above herald, but that's beside the point.


> He has the power to leech kinetic energy off fuckers and make them nearly frozen in time... and he's only considered a fucking herald.
> Gee, surely his powers and abilities aren't being embellished in the slightest.





ChaosTheory123 said:


> I don't read comics.





willyvereb said:


> His  Dispel Bound users also exist on 3 planes at once so unless the Flash  can effect somebody on both physical, astral and spiritual planes, DS  can just regenerate.


This works on Speed Steal?


> This would likely apply to BFR scenarios, as well.
> Even if DS's body disappears, he could just remake it from the astral and spiritual planes.


I'd like a scan of him remaking himself after something similar to being thrown into the Speed Force..


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## Boomy (Jun 19, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Unless we take the Flash pulling the Spectre at face value, the *BFR shouldn't work since Darsh already has resistance to it.
> Same with time travel.*
> As the Adam of Darkness, DS has neither a beginning or end.
> His  Dispel Bound users also exist on 3 planes at once so unless the Flash  can effect somebody on both physical, astral and spiritual planes, DS  can just regenerate.
> ...


Can you tell me when did that happened? Or are you talking about Dispel Bound?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> Still wondering how that isn't a blatant outlier (although apparently it...never actually happened or something?)



og i explained that to you like a week ago 

yeah

it didn't happen


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## ikoke (Jun 19, 2013)

Well,with Dragon Knight Lucifer Darsh can travel between dimensions. He did it to get past Dark Augoides Uriel's storm of negative space.Though,I am not sure whether DS can summon DKL while in Majin mode,since both take a huge toll on his body and soul.


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## Boomy (Jun 19, 2013)

OP specified which version of Darsh he wants to use. So I don't think DKL is allowed.


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## Ramius (Jun 19, 2013)

EDIT: Nevermind actually.
Or actually.



Just in case. Albeit it's a pretty rad unprofessional translation and some..wacky editing. And I'm not sure about speed for it here.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

also

so what if wally dumps darsh into the speed force?

can't darsh get out of it?


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## ikoke (Jun 19, 2013)

Then there's Giran Ira,according to the narration it can also be used to warp space or travel through dimensions.It could come in real handy if Darsh can use it in Majin form. 

He only displayed it while piloting DKL,but considering that all the spells of DKL(except for it's cannon attacks) are basically DS's own spells uploaded to the mecha via Unpacker ,there's a fair possibility that Majin Darsh can use it as well.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> also
> 
> so what if wally dumps darsh into the speed force?
> 
> can't darsh get out of it?


I was under the impression SF dump is a very "special" BFR and DC people with interdimensional travel can't just get out of it 


that wrong ? or has no feats to support such a notion ?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

well, superboy prime escaped it...and he doesn't have proper abilities regarding interdimensional travel

in fact, earth-two superman broke through the dimensional barrier between his pocket dimension and the main DC universe by _punching_


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

I wonder what Danger Doom has to say about that


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## Erudite Ape (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> well, superboy prime escaped it...and he doesn't have proper abilities regarding interdimensional travel


He also punched the universe into retconning itself. That's not a very good example.

Regardless, I've yet to see any proof of Darsh actually having any defense against Wally's hax.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

...and _i've_ yet to see any proof that wally's "hax" is binding against darsh

what makes the speed force inescapable? especially to someone who actually can move between dimensions?


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## shade0180 (Jun 19, 2013)

> He has this Feats during his Kid Flash day where he traveled in some other planet/dimension by vibrating
> 
> 
> -------
> ...



Just going to put this here dunno if it's going to help or not...


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

do those anti-monitor images work for anyone else?


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

People really dismissing the Spectre out his hiding spot? ( The Narrative even mention him sensing someone hiding amongst them to emphasis KC Flash being vibration all over the place). I guess Steel didn't broke into heaven/ where the Spectre was at when he took Supes to be judged by the gods.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> People really dismissing the Spectre out his hiding spot? I guess Steel didn't broke into heaven/ where the Spectre was at when he took Supes to be judged by the gods.




*Spoiler*: __ 








pictured: the spectre


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

that's not Kagney, is it?


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Speedforce is Barry only him and anyone related or went through the same accident can access it. That's a fact and Max and Jesse use a equation to tap in and out of it. No knowledge of equation no getting out. Serious Lucy why you keep commenting on a comic line you don't read.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> Speedforce is Barry only him and anyone related or wet through the same accident can access it. That's a fact and Max and Jesse use a equation to tap in and out of it. No knowledge of equation no getting out. Serious Lucy why you keep commenting on a comic line you don't read.



lel

>blabs about a non-canon elseworlds feat while lying about what happened in it
>gets contradicted by the pages
>silently drops claim 
>immediately segues into taking pot-shots at others for not reading comics

the irony

also SBP got out of it so cool stuff


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

This is also why Supes and other villain can't use the speed force


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

You do realize that is Norman McKay the same one influence by the Spectre power.  

What makes it worst Spectre wanted him not to be discovered.

So yeah... Nice cherry pic but no cigar.


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## shade0180 (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm not talking about elseworld. There is this one time where Flash pulled out Spectre from it's dimension. Can't seem to find a scan online though. And I don't remember the issue when it happened I'll try to look for it but if I can't well we can probably drop it..

Looking for it is like looking for a needle in a haystack

since When I search for Flash I get Flash and Spectre is a laptop.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> You do realize that is Norman McKay the same one influence by the Spectre power.
> 
> What makes it worst Spectre wanted him not to be discovered.
> 
> So yeah... Nice cherry pic but no cigar.



>calling posting the entire feat a cherry pick
>implying norman mckay was given any of the spectre's power
>trying to bullshit about the spectre's intentions 
>no indication that the spectre took special precautions to stop him being discovered
>whole feat is non-canon in the first place

god, you're stupid


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Do you even know why Spectre recruited him and wanted him to witness the events? 

Oh Lucy you are mad again. Sorry but you seem to silently drop the fact you were stating shit like its easy to come out the speed force after being dump into it. Naw you wouldn't do that it would just contradict your whole rant of irony.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

yep

he needed mckay to witness as an unbiased observer who sought justice, because he felt his own faculties were impaired, and he wanted norman to help him judge who should be punished


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

So it has nothing to with the fact Norman had Sandman powers and the Spectre wanted him as his human conscience. Okay then I think I am done shredding your logic you are dismiss.



A swing and a miss as always Lucy .


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

> he needed mckay to witness as an unbiased observer who sought justice, because he felt his own faculties were impaired, and he wanted norman to help him judge who should be punished





> the Spectre wanted him as his human conscience




can you even read?


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

>Spectre didn't try hard to make Mckay undetectable
> He was there to spy and Judge on super power beings

Pic one.


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> can you even read?





> *Sandman powers*



Yes I can but I have to bold the major factor . Do you even know what powers Sandman has to make it valuable for the Spectre to want someone with it for?


Oh and only the Spectre Judges and condemns. Mckay was just to influence his decision .


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

oh hey, boston brand can perceive norman too

i guess deadman is also capable of piercing the spectre's mystical illusions

or maybe there aren't any mystical illusions and norman is just on the astral plane, and anyone with second sight/ghost-detection powers/who isn't limited to the physical plane can see him

durr


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> >Spectre didn't try hard to make Mckay undetectable
> > He was there to spy and Judge on super power beings
> 
> Pic one.



>needing to make him undetectable when most heroes can't access the astral plane and it was surprising that flash could


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Oh look a ghost who is hired by a universal goddess, Rama Kushna. I wonder why he could see Mckay.

Not like in main Continuity he can go look for the Spectre or anything. 

Naw that is just silly.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

>a ghost
>trying to blabber about rama kushna
>when the point is that he's a ghost

stop wanking


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

You go from one flop to another. Whats next you have a scan of Kent Nelson seeing Mckay and having tea with the Spectre. 

Oh, I know how about Phantom Stranger talking to him.


When dem jimmies are so rustled the things kids say.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

> No knowledge of equation no getting out


NLF


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> You go from one flop to another. Whats next you have a scan of Kent Nelson seeing Mckay and having tea with the Spectre.
> 
> Oh, I know how about Phantom Stranger talking to him.
> 
> ...



>comparing deadman to dr fate
>comparing deadman to phantom stranger


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

bah

this is another waste of time trying to ram facts into danger dong's skull, and irrelevant to the thread because elseworlds stories aren't canon in the first place


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> NLF



It's a good thing retcon punch put that to rest right?


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> bah
> 
> this is another waste of time trying to ram facts into danger dong's skull, and irrelevant to the thread because elseworlds stories aren't canon in the first place



I am not the one who brought Elseworld into this you were the one blabbing about in on the first page but I get how anger can cloud someone mind.

Also to the post before that yeah again not like Deadman has a universal entity backing him up or anything. 

But as usual Lucy has some splaining to do.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> I am not the one who brought Elseworld into this you were the one blabbing about in on the first page but I get how anger can cloud someone mind.





shade0180 said:


> He pulled out Spectre from its own dimension to the dimension where flash is...


i get how being retarded can cloud someone's mind, too



> Also to the post before that yeah again not like Deadman has a universal entity backing him up or anything.



>if he's connected to an entity, he can wield all of that entity's power!

no

deadman had intangibility, invisibility, flight, and possession



> But as usual Lucy has some splaining to do.



...


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## Ulti (Jun 19, 2013)

> When dem jimmies are so rustled the things kids say.



Well, they say "dem jimmies rustled" to start with  people still using it in 2013 as if it was funny in the first place smh.


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> >if he's connected to an entity, he can wield all of that entity's power!
> 
> no
> 
> deadman had intangibility, invisibility, flight, and possession



It's funny when you frustrated you call people retarded and then say shit like this. No where I mention he wield her power. If you would read deadman , rhetorical we know you don't, you realize if she wants him to see, view or go somewhere he will be going there. Because you know she is all about Karma and Deadman is her messenger.

Also you were still the first one to mention Elseworld. Shade was just stating an incident .


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> It's funny when you frustrated you call people retarded and then say shit like this. No where I mention he wield her power. If you would read deadman , rhetorical we know you don't, you realize if she wants him to see, view or go somewhere he will be going there. Because you know she is all about Karma and Deadman is her messenger.



except he wasn't on duty



>I just enjoy boppin' around the ethereal planes from time to time.

good reading comprehension


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

And what exactly that proves kid? You were the one bitching that Spectre had no *Realm.* You just fucking prove that you realize this right?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

did you have a stroke?

how does that prove what they're standing in belongs to the spectre?



> And what exactly that proves kid?



>pretending not to understand


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> no
> 
> deadman had intangibility, invisibility, flight, and possession
> 
> ...



Then goes on and proves Deadman can dimension hop.




Jesus my sides.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

...why would i need to include that when i literally just showed you he can?

and how would that prove that what they're standing in belongs to the spectre?


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> did you have a stroke?
> 
> how does that prove what they're standing in belongs to the spectre?
> 
> ...



Who placed Mckay there? Spectre did the narrative mention FLash can perceive higher dimensions. Yes it did.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> Who placed Mckay there? Spectre did the narrative mention FLash can perceive higher dimensions. Yes it did.



i just

what?

what?

how does the spectre TAKING mckay there prove he OWNS it?

the spectre took mckay to earth, does he own earth?


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

And since does it matter if he owns it or not? Oh I get it....



Guess we got to be technical here the Realm Spectre goes to when he wants to perceive things. 

Inb4proveSpectredoesntuseanotherrealmforhimself.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

...

i don't think it's physically possible for you to be any more stupid


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

does spectre have a time-share agreement with ganthet, shazam, phantom stranger and highfather?


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Honestly how does this downplay Flash grabbing Mckay out a ethereal realm Spectre put him in?

Considering Deadman made it clear there are more than one. I fail to see your point in this matter .

Maybe you need to look up contradiction.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Oh hey a wild dong appeared in a Flash thread!Danger Dong, stop wanking the Flash. Between your claims over the year of Flash being unkilleable or being able to vibrate through any attack plus the blatant dishonesty involving a feat that never happened in an alternate continuity no less.

Anyway I'd give it to Wally, he's faster and Majin form has a time limit plus he's got the h4x to BFR Darsh. Not sure how much damage the IMPs will do, DS has the firepower and H4X to down Wally but he's not fast enough.

Speed force dump is not something covered by the Dispel bounds(it's worked on more H4X) and Flash is faster than DS by enough to be able to take all the time he needs before he does the dump.



> DS has fought and defeated pre-crisis supes, regardless of whatever speed advantage the fucker has



Are we actually using ABC thread logic?As mentioned he probably beat Pre crisis supes due to his magic weakness, Pre Crisis Supes is otherwise>>>>>>>Majin DS(the whose the version being used in this thread, do not know which version was used against PC Supes).



> Barring someone telling me that A>B>C logic doesn't work in this particular case?



Because magic was like super effective against Pre crisis supes, that's the only chance DS would have. Don't recall PC Supes ever hitting Galaxy level(been a while) but Majin DS is like Star+ which is'nt enough for PC Supes.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> Honestly how does this downplay Flash grabbing Mckay out a ethereal realm Spectre put him in?
> 
> Considering Deadman made it clear there are more than one. I fail to see your point in this matter .



because mckay is just a guy, you twat

he is just a superpowerless human being

and the spectre was not taking any special precautions

mckay was on the astral plane with all the ghosts and such, and flash pulled him out

that is not a big deal at all


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Oh hey a wild dong appeared in a Flash thread!
> 
> Anyway I'd give it to Wally, he's faster and Majin form has a time limit plus he's got the h4x to BFR Darsh. Not sure how much damage the IMPs will do, DS has the firepower and H4X to down Wally but he's not fast enough.
> 
> ...



can darsh get out of the speed force?


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Superpower less being? Being able to see visions is not a superpower. 



> >I just enjoy boppin' around the ethereal planes from time to time.





> and the spectre was not taking any special precautions
> 
> mckay was on the astral plane *with all the ghosts and such, and flash pulled him out*



I love reading one contradiction from another. 

Guess only one here can make baseless assumptions here is you.

I see you brought a friend too.


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Hey guys the place where Shazam, Phantom Stranger and Highfather gather to discuss important business any average ghost can just jump here.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> can darsh get out of the speed force?



Worked on the Anti-monitor and he was>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Flash

I honestly feel dirty being on the same side of Danger Dong.



> I see you brought a friend too



Says the person whose claiming Flash>Spectre.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> Superpower less being? Being able to see visions is not a superpower.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



>implying that's a contradiction 
>when deadman meeting mckay and the flash pulling mckay out happened at two completely different times
>in different issues

are you so stupid that you can't conceptualise the existence of times other than what you see right in front of you?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Worked on the Anti-monitor and he was>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Flash



hrrrrm

fair enough, i concede


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> Hey guys the place where Shazam, Phantom Stranger and Highfather gather to discuss important business any average ghost can just jump here.



it's interesting how you constantly drop arguments and adopt new ones when the old ones get shot down, danger dong


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Concession accepted kid .


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 19, 2013)

Wow, He's talking about owning the Ethereal planes?
Does he know what the the Ethereal planes are?


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> it's interesting how you constantly drop arguments and adopt new ones when the old ones get shot down, danger dong



>Says anybody can come out the speedforce.

>Gets proven wrong.

Seems like a bullseye to me .


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> >implying that's a contradiction
> >when deadman meeting mckay and the flash pulling mckay out happened at two completely different times
> >in different issues
> 
> are you so stupid that you can't conceptualise the existence of times other than what you see right in front of you?





Danger Doom said:


> Concession accepted kid .



>makes his stupidest argument yet
>gets shot down
>"concession accepted"

i can smell your desperation


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Heavenly Planes and you do know that when someone say Spectre realm it does not indicate direct possession right? Or are you guys still reading at 5th grade level. Not that it matters if he owns it or not.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Erudite Ape said:


> He also punched the universe into retconning itself. That's not a very good example.
> 
> Regardless, I've yet to see any proof of Darsh actually having any defense against Wally's hax.



>Guardian amp
>Punched a special Nexus

Sorry, not an argument.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Interesting, never seen that but then there's hope DS from speed force dump.



during infinite crisis, during SBP's first rampage, jay, wally and bart dump him into the speed force

hours later, bart - older, now - runs out yelling that SBP escaped


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

I actually love Lucy posting about strawman when himself spent 3 pages over Spectre owning a realm.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Ah alright, thanks for that.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

then again, maybe it's because SBP was just _that fast_?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 19, 2013)




----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> I actually love Lucy posting about strawman when himself spent 3 pages over Spectre owning a realm.



lol

i think you've pretty much exhausted all of your lies, misrepresentations, and red herrings at this point


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Is he still going on about Flash>freakin Spectre?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

also, fury, since the speed force is basically a dimension, albeit one with certain highly specific qualities, and anti-monitor was multiversal

is it not an outlier for it to imprison him?



Tranquil Fury said:


> Is he still going on about Flash>freakin Spectre?



it's difficult to say, because after i posted the scan showing that it was NOT the spectre who got pulled out, he switched to pretending the feat was still amazing because the guy who got pulled out was, in some way, being protected by the spectre

that's the sort of thing he does

clutching at straws and inventing things when he gets wrecked


----------



## Qinglong (Jun 19, 2013)

That was SCW wasn't it? He's weaker than in COIE


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Yeah that one was'nt amped by many universes like COIE but Anti-Monitor's dimension jumping capabilities still exist.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

so SBP did something that AM couldn't ?


----------



## Velocity (Jun 19, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> so SBP did something that AM couldn't ?



You sound surprised.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> People really dismissing the Spectre out his hiding spot? ( The Narrative even mention him sensing someone hiding amongst them to emphasis KC Flash being vibration all over the place). I guess Steel didn't broke into heaven/ where the Spectre was at when he took Supes to be judged by the gods.



Yep, as you can see I open up saying Spectre is > Flash. 

Oh, look the #456567543 ironic statement from Lucy about strawmanning.

I guess someone with high level interdimension travel is no biggie. 

Keep it classy guys. 




I just love seeing all my kids under one roof .


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

SBP was DC's Red Hulk with Loeb force, so yes that annoying turd broke out somehow.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

fury, pls elaborate on flash being able to speed force dump anti-monitor

when/how?


----------



## Velocity (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> fury, pls elaborate on flash being able to speed force dump anti-monitor
> 
> when/how?



And this is why multiple writers penning stories is always going to cause nothing but trouble - how can you have a set hierarchy of power if fanboys get to give their favourite characters power ups whenever they feel like it?


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## Erudite Ape (Jun 19, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> >Guardian amp


>implying this matters, given his other punching reality feats.


> >Punched a special Nexus


So Jimmy Olsen could retcon reality by punching the magic happy place dimension? 


> Sorry, not an argument.


----------



## DestinyDestroyer (Jun 19, 2013)

Does DS's Majin form has a time limit? I was under the impression that it was limitless, so long as he doesn't cast spells, as they take a hug toll on his body and soul

Also, how exactly do you defeat DS? Aside from destroying him in the three planes of existence, how can you get past his Dispell Bound?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Went through Sinestro War Corps, he was beaten by SBP after he was weakened and chucked into space then turned into a battery. Yeah I'm remember it wrong, please disregard my AM point unless someone posts a scan.



> And this is why multiple writers penning stories is always going to cause nothing but trouble - how can you have a set hierarchy of power if fanboys get to give their favourite characters power ups whenever they feel like it?



Do not know if you still post in the Society Library but if you read Bleach upto the "Winter War" arc and that's a manga where one writer contradicted himself. 

Does multiple writers across 40+ years have a demerit?Yes

But we also get good stories and interesting views.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

> >implying this matters, given his other punching reality feats



Did you just say SBP having a massive amp does not matter?Punching through dimensions does not equal retconning a universe so yes the amp very clearly mattered.

It was combination of a massive amp and punching a very particular Nexus that allowed that, he can't do it on his own, stop ignoring the circumstances.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

alright there you go

i think darsh could get out of speed force

the debate then is, how can he tag wally?

wally can't actually kill him because he can't destroy his eternal atoms, correct?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> Does DS's Majin form has a time limit? I was under the impression that it was limitless, so long as he doesn't cast spells, as they take a hug toll on his body and soul
> 
> Also, how exactly do you defeat DS? Aside from destroying him in the three planes of existence, how can you get past his Dispell Bound?



No the Judas Pain attack his mind, body and soul, technically he has no physical body in Hell, he lost his physical body in the Anthrax fight when he died but JP does take a strain, Darsh's willpower is what allows him to last as long as he did.

Anyway speed force dump may not work here after all, DS is comparable in other stats outside speed and has the H4X to down Wally, now it comes down to whether Wally can put down DS or not.

He could leave DS at the beginning or end of time but not sure if that will work, been a while since I read Bastard!!.

Dispel bound is beaten by overwriting each shield and shattering it, you have to overcome the regen rate of each barrier then be able to hit on physical, spiritual and astral realms.

Simply put comparable cosmic power is needed, Seraphims/Demon Lords draw upon the remaining energies of the big bang during their fights involving Dispel Bound, it's like Marvel's Power Primordial or Saint Seiya's cosmo.

The bigger the gap in cosmic power, the easier it is to tear through
e.g Fallen Uriel blasted DS through the layers of Hell with his signature attack knocking him into base but that could also be a result of the strain caused by Judas Pain, he did however summon Dragon Knight Lucifer moments later.

DS is quite H4X, you're going to need H4X characters.

Base to Majin DS is herald level so you're going to need characters like Thor, Surfer, Gold Saints etc

DKL= Skyfather level so you're going to need characters above the ones I mentioned above by a lot.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

> wally can't actually kill him because he can't destroy his eternal atoms, correct?



Correct on that. That requires atomisation plus attacking on the physical, astral and spiritual realms with sufficent enough force, for Majin DS Star+ levels.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

righto

then...how about, if wally attacked darsh and got stuck in trying to break through his dispel bound, could darsh hold him and kill him?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Damn you Luc, the mental image of that is now stuck in my head and making me laugh.

But Flash is a glass canon compared to other herald levels including this form of Darsh so yes if he gets hit he's either going to take critical damage or die.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

so :


IMP can't kill DS

he can come back from SF dump BFR

speed steal should technically work still ? (TF says Majin DS is herald level, Flash can speed steal from that level without trouble) but it requires physical contact which is prevented by the autobarriers ? can those barriers be broken by IMP (at least momentarily) to start the speed steal ? y/n ?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

also :



^ what issue/year is this from ? what version of Supes is that ?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

> Damn you Luc, the mental image of that is now stuck in my head and making me laugh.





btw, i thought majin DS was more like transcendent level because he was fighting uriel, and uriel and the other archangels are capable of destroying star systems?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Stars not Solar systems/Star systems

Uriel's Gungnir can destroy a Star, this was before his first power up post Fall down

Michael can shoot a supernova level attack in base, DS as a head in base absorbed the above mentioned attack to regen his body, DS can absorb fire based attacks so a super nova is probably something he can absorb* but he does have an attack comparable to Michael's Supernova called Judas Pain*.

The Luminous bodies can destroy Stars. Majin DS owned a Luminous body of Konron

Dragon Knight Lucifer and Fallen Uriel after his huge increases hit Galaxy level, Michael admits it's beyond anything she can do at that point so perhaps Michael can take out a Solar system+ in her Luminous body form but DS has never fought that in his Majin form.


----------



## Boomy (Jun 19, 2013)

Speaking about breaking Dispel Bound. What is the striking strength of the Uriel and Darsh? I guess they can be easily powerscaled from Konron(or whatever his name was) since Darsh nuked his Augoeides with half assed punch. But how much exactly?

edit: ninja'd?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

i see

darsh is pretty high herald level then


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Basically yeah

Base to Majin form: Herald level
Dragon Knight Lucier form: Skyfather level

He has a new form which is implied to be above his previous but that has no combat feats, creating a high level angel in Uriel's sister with his new form based on memories of her is a good feat for it however.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> btw, i thought majin DS was more like transcendent level because he was fighting uriel, and uriel and the other archangels are capable of destroying star systems?



Maybe Micheal can, but she was the strongest Seraph.

Though they all managed to survive the detonation of the black abyss from some distance away from the epicenter, realistically, that credits them at least solar system level durability to some unknown extent.

Base Fallen Uriel and Majin DS should theoretically be able to dish such levels of power out anyway.

And... when I initially made my posts in this thread, I was thinking along the lines of dragon knight Lucifer for some reason


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Black Abyss destruction by Fallen Uriel in his dark boy and Dragon Knight Lucifer also caused dimensional barriers to shatter.


----------



## Ulti (Jun 19, 2013)

Does Wally have _any_ superhuman durability to speak of?


----------



## Atem (Jun 19, 2013)

Well, Wally can tank the force of his own Infinite Mass Punch without being reduced to nothing.

Unless that has something to do with his own exotic speed force abilities, that would probably also count to his durability. There was also a time where Wally ran through a black hole in The Human Race *but* he was greatly boosted then with the speed of everyone on earth and other stuff. 

I'm not seeing how Wally's getting past Dispel Bound.


----------



## Qinglong (Jun 19, 2013)

Yes, but not to star level afaik

EDIT: Was thinking of DKL for some reason...


----------



## Bullbob (Jun 19, 2013)

Hmmm, just to clear this up I'm one of those that don't think Superboy Prime escaped the Speed Force. What the speedsters did was push Emoboy THROUGH the speed force and used it to teleport him to a paralell world where he was put in a prison with red sunlight. While on that world, emoboy crafted his antimonitor like armor to get his powers back and was able to come back. He wasn't actually INSIDE the speedforce all that time but jusat a parallel world he was transported to.


What drives me to go for that interpretation is that after all exhausting themselves from the attempt, the speedsters said the speed force itself was gone (albeit that prove temporary).


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

EDIT So he was'nt in the Speed force but sent to another dimension.


----------



## Erudite Ape (Jun 19, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Did you just say SBP having a massive amp does not matter?Punching through dimensions does not equal retconning a universe so yes the amp very clearly mattered.


You're adorable.


> It was combination of a massive amp and punching a very particular Nexus that allowed that, he can't do it on his own, stop ignoring the circumstances.


No, I'm not. But since apparently Jimmy Olsen could retcon punch were he in the happy place dimension, I guess it doesn't matter much 


Lucaniel said:


> alright there you go
> 
> i think darsh could get out of speed force


And I think Canada should take over the US government. Does it matter much?

Post proof of him escaping an exotic dimension capable of at least temporarily holding things as casually capable of interdimensional travel or at similar levels of power as a PC Kryptonian or concede. Of course you can't, but I don't expect that to stop you.


Bullbob said:


> Hmmm, just to clear this up I'm one of those that don't think Superboy Prime escaped the Speed Force. What the speedsters did was push Emoboy THROUGH the speed force and used it to teleport him to a paralell world where he was put in a prison with red sunlight. While on that world, emoboy crafted his antimonitor like armor to get his powers back and was able to come back. He wasn't actually INSIDE the speedforce all that time but jusat a parallel world he was transported to.


Uh, scans please.


----------



## MAPSK (Jun 19, 2013)

Erudite Ape said:


> You're adorable.
> No, I'm not. But since apparently Jimmy Olsen could retcon punch were he in the happy place dimension, I guess it doesn't matter much
> And I think Canada should take over the US government. Does it matter much?
> 
> ...



Oh my god, shut up or say something that actually contributes to the fucking conversation.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Jesus christ what part of it was a COMBINATION of

1. Guardian Amp
2. A very special nexus

Do you not get?You keep going on about how he punches through dimensions, all well and good but that's not the same as retconning a universe, the Guardian amp was massive enough to let him to take it to a higher level. Why do you keep bringing up Jimmy Olsen as he's not relevant to this case?.

*You're asking us to ignore his Guardian amp power up+special Nexus he needed to punch then claiming he can do it without the amp and by punching anywhere*. Think about this.


SBP was not under the Guardian amp when he was sent through the Speed force now was he?

EDIT Plus the possibility he was'nt in the Speed force since he got his hands on Anti-Monitor tech.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

> temporarily holding things as casually capable of interdimensional travel or at similar levels of power as a PC Kryptonian


so according to you SBP is capable of casual interdimensional travel ? or did you mean someone else ?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

i assume he's talking about PC supes

who had powers like "super-ventriloquism" and "super-hypnosis"

so i'm not seeing the relevance in terms of scaling him to SBP when he was clearly a whole different beast, considering he got powers as the story required on a monthly basis


----------



## Erudite Ape (Jun 19, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Oh my god, shut up or say something that actually contributes to the fucking conversation.


Oh, the irony.


Tranquil Fury said:


> Jesus christ what part of it was a COMBINATION of
> 
> 1. Guardian Amp
> 2. A very special nexus
> ...


Because you've changed your argument.


> *You're asking us to ignore his Guardian amp power up+special Nexus he needed to punch then claiming he can do it without the amp and by punching anywhere*. Think about this.


Not what I was saying. Point out to me exactly where I stated the nexus wasn't necessary. 


> SBP was not under the Guardian amp when he was sent through the Speed force now was he?


Nope. Your point?


> EDIT Plus the possibility he was'nt in the Speed force since he got his hands on Anti-Monitor tech.


Cool. But that's speculation. Speculation is well and good, but there's no proof. All the solid evidence, all the on-panel events and statements, say he got thrown into the Speed Force. Now if anyone can provide a good scan stating otherwise, I'll gladly concede this point.


Fluttershy said:


> so according to you SBP is capable of casual interdimensional travel ? or did you mean someone else ?


You haven't read much Pre-Crisis, have you?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2013)

> i assume he's talking about PC supes
> 
> who had powers like "super-ventriloquism" and "super-hypnosis"
> 
> so i'm not seeing the relevance in terms of scaling him to SBP when he was clearly a whole different beast, considering he got powers as the story required on a monthly basis


yeah, I already mentioned that I'm not buying this - that SBP can be scaled from *every single* feat Pre-Crisis Clark *ever* did



can some answer this too :


Fluttershy said:


> ^ what issue/year is this from ? what version of Supes is that ?


----------



## Ulti (Jun 19, 2013)

So, um, this may of been answered a few pages back but fuck off am I going through all of them 

But what makes the Speedforce dimension dump so 'exotic' compared to others?

General question.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

from the art, i think it's post-crisis


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> So, um, this may of been answered a few pages back but fuck off am I going through all of them
> 
> But what makes the Speedforce dimension dump so 'exotic' compared to others?
> 
> General question.



that

actually hasn't...been...answered 

i don't think, anyway


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2013)

Erudite trying to be cool on the internet.

The post I originally replied too


> He also punched the universe into retconning itself. That's not a very good example.
> 
> Regardless, I've yet to see any proof of Darsh actually having any defense against Wally's hax



*You brought up the universe retconning feat claiming him breaking out of the Speed force is not a good example to use against it, I corrected you on the circumstances of the punch.* Then you apparantly brought up how he punches through dimensions.

Then you said this


> So Jimmy Olsen could retcon reality by punching the magic happy place dimension?



Why would you bring this up if you agreed he was amped and required special circumstances?

*He was'nt amped when he was dumped into the Speed force* so yes my original point to correct you stands by mentioning he can't retcon a universe without special circumstances. There was no reason to bring up the universe retcon feat in context to SBP being Speed force dumped.

*You brought up the Guardian amp instances to claim him breaking free from the speed force was not a bad showing, I don't care about his other dimensional feats as I'm not arguing those*.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Jun 19, 2013)

Ask Erudite ape to shut up and he'll do the exact opposite.


----------



## TehChron (Jun 19, 2013)

Actually, outside of that mention, has the Speed Force ever been shown to be a literal plane of existence?

I always assumed that it was a...force, like gravity, or electromagnetism, or something. Gravity being what creates the illusion of weight, EM being EM, and the Speed Force just makes shit go fast. 

As far as the speed steal goes, for future reference, did that Uriel Dispel Bound scan shown earlier show "Inertia-Control" as something covered by Dispel Bound? So wouldnt the Speed Steal fall under that as well?


----------



## Erudite Ape (Jun 19, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> that
> 
> actually hasn't...been...answered
> 
> i don't think, anyway


Because it's made of the Flash's pants and can hold Emoboy Prime? Unless you think Emoboy Prime was too busy trying on all the speed force clothes to bother getting out before he did :zary



Tranquil Fury said:


> Erudite trying to be cool on the internet.
> 
> The post I originally replied too
> 
> ...


You corrected nothing. You brought up circumstances that were irrelevant, unless, as I said, Jimmy Olsen could retcon punch the wall.


> Then you apparantly brought up how he punches through dimensions.


Which he can.


> Then you said this
> Why would you bring this up if you agreed he was amped and required special circumstances?


Because he has other dimension-punching feats without the amp? And that you're being intentionally dense.


> *He was'nt amped when he was dumped into the Speed force* so yes my original point to correct you stands by mentioning he can't retcon a universe without special circumstances. There was no reason to bring up the universe retcon feat in context to SBP being Speed force dumped.


You're absolutely right. There's absolutely no point in bringing in other relevant feats in a discussion, no sirree! Actually bringing in facts is for pussies!


> *You brought up the Guardian amp instances to claim him breaking free from the speed force was not a bad showing, I don't care about his other dimensional feats as I'm not arguing those*.


No, I didn't. I was pointing out that Lucy's claims of SBP lacking dimensional abilities was stupid. 

But, hey, completely ignoring context is cool, I guess.


Bullbob said:


> Erudite only showed half of the full scan of that comic page. In the second half of the page Jay Garrick specifically tells the other heroes with a sadened face "the speed force Ted, it's gone".* It might be conjecture,*...


Yup. Now provide proof of this speed force red sun or concede.


TehChron said:


> Actually, outside of that mention, has the Speed Force ever been shown to be a literal plane of existence?


Yes.


> I always assumed that it was a...force, like gravity, or electromagnetism, or something. Gravity being what creates the illusion of weight, EM being EM, and the Speed Force just makes shit go fast.


People have become "one with the speed force" or something, there's some guy  who's all zen about it, and I recall someone poisoning it at one point, although it might have been a figure of speech.


> As far as the speed steal goes, for future reference, did that Uriel Dispel Bound scan shown earlier show "Inertia-Control" as something covered by Dispel Bound? So wouldnt the Speed Steal fall under that as well?


Probably not.


----------



## TehChron (Jun 19, 2013)

Erudite Ape said:


> Yes.



Show me scans.



> People have become "one with the speed force" or something, there's some guy  who's all zen about it, and I recall someone poisoning it at one point, although it might have been a figure of speech.


 People have become one with the force. Or reach the state of Nirvana. Or manifest their waifus into the real world to have creepy delusional make out sessions.

Hyperbole's great and all, but it can mean anything, even out and out bullshit.



> Probably not.



So barriers that supposedly are meant to insulate a character against reality warping are simply incapable of handling the manipulation of one's speed.

Just because you don't think so.


----------



## Erudite Ape (Jun 19, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Show me scans.


Working on it. You've got one, though. Why isn't that enough?


> People have become one with the force. Or reach the state of Nirvana. Or manifest their waifus into the real world to have creepy delusional make out sessions.


Relevant... how?


> Hyperbole's great and all, but it can mean anything, even out and out bullshit.


So people have made portals into the Force and nirvana and thrown universe-level people in?


> So barriers that supposedly are meant to insulate a character against reality warping are simply incapable of handling the manipulation of one's speed.
> 
> Just because you don't think so.


No, because I have no evidence they do.


----------



## Tacocat (Jun 19, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> also :
> 
> 
> 
> ^ what issue/year is this from ? what version of Supes is that ?


That's DC 1st, Superman and The Flash. '02, I believe, so post-crisis.


----------



## TehChron (Jun 19, 2013)

Erudite Ape said:


> Working on it. You've got one, though. Why isn't that enough?



Dumping SBP into a yellow stream of energy with the assistance of the spirits of dead speedsters isnt an image of a plane of existence.



> Relevant... how?
> So people have made portals into the Force and nirvana and thrown universe-level people in?



Well, that requires first showing that there was something for them to be thrown into. Hence why I said "hyperbole"



> No, because I have no evidence they do.



Oh, I guess that means you lack the ability to infer.

Well, not too surprising, I guess.


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 20, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> so :
> 
> 
> IMP can't kill DS
> ...



Speed Steal doesn't need contact. I already posted 1 scan where he speed steal a bullet without touching also there is a scan floating somewhere in the internet where Barry speed steals Wally without touching him during his Kid flash days. Just saying.



> Well, that requires first showing that there was something for them to be thrown into. Hence why I said "hyperbole"



Well There are multipl,e times it was portrayed as a dimension. But different writers has different views on it... There was one time where Barry met Hal in Heaven when he died. At the time Barry was suppose to be inside the Speed force and then there's the explanation during the Flash point I think where he explained it as a place where time continues to flow and everything was moving fast or something.


----------



## feebas_factor (Jun 20, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Speed Steal doesn't need contact. I already posted 1 scan where he speed steal a bullet without touching also there is a scan floating somewhere in the internet where Barry speed steals Wally without touching him during his Kid flash days. Just saying.



Seems legit. Is speed steal gonna incapacitate DS fully, or just freeze his physical body? i.e. is Flash still gonna have to deal with the astral/spiritual level shit on top of that.


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 20, 2013)

He is going to deal with spiritual level shit but he has touched intangibles before... Well sometimes he can sometimes he can't  I'm not sure about astral plain though.


----------



## TehChron (Jun 20, 2013)

I cant believe that youre seriously discussing this.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 20, 2013)

The strongest version of the Flash should take this.


----------



## Atem (Jun 20, 2013)

I thought Dispel Bound protected against inertia control, as mentioned in a scan posted several pages back. 

That would probably include stuff like speed steal since inertia = amount of resistance to a change in velocity/movement.


----------



## TehChron (Jun 20, 2013)

Its got a penicillin and reality warping barrier.

There is no reason to assume that there isnt gonna be at least one barrier that can defend against a speed steal before DS pastes Wally in the time it takes to try that shit.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 20, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Its got a penicillin and reality warping barrier.
> 
> There is no reason to assume that there isnt gonna be at least one barrier that can defend against a speed steal before DS pastes Wally in the time it takes to try that shit.



Just popping in, not arguing for either side, but is DS fast enough to 'paste' wally? I was getting the distinct feeling that DS is too slow to even touch him. Also, how do these barriers work? People's answers so far make it seem as though they either have no limit (NLF) or top out somewhere so high that it doesn't matter. 

For the Wally side, assuming Wally _can_ speed steal DS, what then? Does he have the necessary power/hax/both to take out a character who apparently needs to be killed on three separate 'planes'?

Again, not arguing for either side. Just wondering.


----------



## ikoke (Jun 20, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Just popping in, not arguing for either side, but is DS fast enough to 'paste' wally? I was getting the distinct feeling that DS is too slow to even touch him. Also, how do these barriers work? People's answers so far make it seem as though they either have no limit (NLF) or top out somewhere so high that it doesn't matter.



Dispel bound bans various types of attacks and effects,including reality warping,divine attacks,punches,assimilation,magic,poison gases etc. So as long as the barriers exist such attacks won't have any effect on DS. 

To get through these barriers you either need to rewrite them,or break through them with sheer power. However it is unlikely that Flash possesses the knowledge to rewrite these barriers. So he has to break through them with force. It is stated that the wider the gap in cosmic power level,the easier it is to overwhelm Dispel Bound. As Majin DS is high herald level at the very least,you need to be around skyfather level to easily overwhelm them.

 Weaker characters might also get the job done,but it will take a lot of time and since DS can regenerate thses barriers millions of times/sec it's going to be very difficult.


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## Nevermind (Jun 20, 2013)

>Enters a comic-related thread.
>Sees massive autism from the usual suspects.

Yeah.

Basically I'd go with what willy said on the first page. Flash certainly doesn't have the power to just break through the barriers, given that they were able to survive the Black Abyss going boom.

This one might boil down to a stalemate.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 20, 2013)

ikoke said:


> Dispel bound bans various types of attacks and effects,including reality warping,divine attacks,punches,assimilation,magic,poison gases etc. So as long as the barriers exist such attacks won't have any effect on DS.
> 
> To get through these barriers you either need to rewrite them,or break through them with sheer power. However it is unlikely that Flash possesses the knowledge to rewrite these barriers. So he has to break through them with force. It is stated that the wider the gap in cosmic power level,the easier it is to overwhelm Dispel Bound. As Majin DS is high herald level at the very least,you need to be around skyfather level to easily overwhelm them.
> 
> Weaker characters might also get the job done,but it will take a lot of time and since DS can regenerate thses barriers millions of times/sec it's going to be very difficult.



Okay, so if Skyfather level sheer power is required to easily overwhelm them would it be a reasonably safe assumption that someone who is herald level (even shit tier) could break through them _eventually_? 

So ^this in conjunction with this:



Fluttershy said:


> PIS off Flash would beat any herald



(assuming what was said is true) would it not be reasonable to assume that Wally could break through DS's barriers? Now, the problem of these barrier's regen comes into play. You said millions of times per second so... would that be one every 500 nanoseconds (2 million per second)? How fast is Wally again? I remember hearing 'zeptoseconds' tossed around but I think that was for amped Wally.

As I said, not trying to argue for either side. You just happened to be the only side who answered my question. Wally's side hasn't, so I can't respond.


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## Tacocat (Jun 20, 2013)

Wally _washes dishes_ in picoseconds. Nanoseconds are nothing to him.

As for the speed steal thing, he shouldn't have any problems with a guy who's 7000c, considering he deals with guys massively faster than that. Plus, there's that scan of Jay, who's still learning the trick from Wally, stealing Superman's speed.

I don't know anything about the other party, so that's all the information I can really give you.


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## TehChron (Jun 20, 2013)

Problem is that breaking them requires sufficiently powerful strikes.

And PIS off Flash doesn't beat Heralds with brute force, IIRC, PIS off Flash beats Heralds through his more h4x applications of the Speed Force.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 20, 2013)

IMP punch should still be star/star+


someone also said he can speed steal w/o physical contact


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 20, 2013)

Flash is Attosecond actually.


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## TehChron (Jun 20, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> IMP punch should still be star/star+
> 
> 
> someone also said he can speed steal w/o physical contact



Dispel Bound would just negate the speed steal regardless.

But as far as IMP goes, how does that attack work? How long does it take for a Flash to use it?

If he can use it at a pace to keep up and surpass the Dispel Bounds regeneration rate, then he can eventually get through them to hit DS.

But thats assuming that he can do that and also defend against Darsh's attacks at the same time, which I dont know, tbqh.


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## Tacocat (Jun 20, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> Flash is Attosecond actually.



I know, he's been in the attoseconds since he was Kid Flash. I was just illustrating a point of casual nature.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 20, 2013)

Wouldn't attosecond speed pretty much guarantee that Wally gets through the shields?  I mean, he could attack the shields in multiple ways a thousand times and still have some tea while MDS just stands there moving slow as balls.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

it'd guarantee that he'd be able to _attack_ the shields

he doesn't have the raw power to get through them and i'm pretty sure some magical know-how is required to overwrite the dispel bound


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 20, 2013)

> Dispel Bound would just negate the speed steal regardless.


well, I assume that depends on which is more powerful

saying DB can negate inertia manipulation of *any* level would be NLF


that said, I'm not sure how to quantify speed steal .. does energy for DC/durability matter there ? or only speed of a character ?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 20, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> it'd guarantee that he'd be able to _attack_ the shields
> 
> he doesn't have the raw power to get through them and i'm pretty sure some magical know-how is required to overwrite the dispel bound



Him wrecking Anti-Monitor should be a convincing enough feat to show that he can get through the shields and his speeds guarantee that he could kill MDS before they come back up.

Didn't see the part about magical know-how.  Ehh whatevs.  Just thought I throw some cents into the money pile.


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## TehChron (Jun 20, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Him wrecking Anti-Monitor should be a convincing enough feat to show that he can get through the shields and his speeds guarantee that he could kill MDS before they come back up.



How so...?

You're going to need to explain how this one works, I dont recall that fight.


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## TehChron (Jun 20, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> well, I assume that depends on which is more powerful
> 
> saying DB can negate inertia manipulation of *any* level would be NLF
> 
> ...



Since speed steal works by absorbing kinetic energy, that should mean that we can powerscale to joules, cant we?

Whats the most energy that Wally has absorbed with Speed Steal, and then we can check it up against the commonly accepted limits of Dispel Bound to see if it works, right?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Him wrecking Anti-Monitor should be a convincing enough feat to show that he can get through the shields and his speeds guarantee that he could kill MDS before they come back up.
> 
> Didn't see the part about magical know-how.  Ehh whatevs.  Just thought I throw some cents into the money pile.



yeah but 

he didn't wreck the anti-monitor

i think fury even rescinded the claim he made regarding that

unless you personally know of him doing so?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 20, 2013)

problem is, he absorbs from MFTL guys and I'm not sure that can be calced into joules .. 



for Flash vs AM :







^ they talk about this fight here too (context)


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 20, 2013)

Dimension travel bypass the shields. Just vibrate out of plane and back into the shield.


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## willyvereb (Jun 20, 2013)

Well, the Anti-Monitor's stats are all over the place.
It goes from barely Superman level to above abstracts, IIRC.



Danger Doom said:


> Dimension travel bypass the shields. Just vibrate out of plane and back into the shield.


Dispel Bound covers space-time manipulation and such, so no.

Also I still waiting for confirmation if the Flash can effect somebody at the physical, spiritual and astral planes at once.
By comic comparisons, these three would be like the following:

Physical plane: material universe
Spiritual plane: land of the dead
Astral plane: the zone that telepaths enter


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

welp, doesn't seem like it counts for much, then


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 20, 2013)

well, I'm going with MDS then

or stalemate due to Flashes huge speed advantage


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 20, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> well, I'm going with MDS then
> 
> or stalemate due to Flashes huge speed advantage



I was going to say stalemate as well Flutter.  Thanks for the post breaking down what actually happened to AM.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 20, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Problem is that breaking them requires sufficiently powerful strikes.
> 
> And PIS off Flash doesn't beat Heralds with brute force, IIRC, PIS off Flash beats Heralds through his more h4x applications of the Speed Force.



How powerful?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 20, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> problem is, he absorbs from MFTL guys and I'm not sure that can be calced into joules ..



Then treat it like we would for any other FTL feat where KE is involved.

Equate the KE to the DC of their physical strikes (though this is slightly different I guess, but the sentiment still works).

Its a hax ability that runs off absorbing energy, you can't justify it being an exotic hax like soul fuck or such shit that requires legitimate resistance feats.  Upper bound should and always will cap at the highest amount of energy a fucker can handle.


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## TehChron (Jun 20, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> How powerful?


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## Nevermind (Jun 20, 2013)

That was as they did so. All the same, everyone's shields survived it without a scratch.

It's basically gonna be a stalemate or DS wins.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 20, 2013)

Still baffled how the GBE of the milky way apparently exceeds destroying the black hole at the center.

It doesn't make much sense, given the black hole contributes the majority of the gravitational force, right?

Or am I wrong


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## Nevermind (Jun 20, 2013)

Well who knows? There are hundreds of billions of stars and lightyears long clouds of gas, not to mention the dark matter.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 20, 2013)

True enough.

Still impressive shit regardless.


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## Erudite Ape (Jun 20, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Dumping SBP into a yellow stream of energy with the assistance of the spirits of dead speedsters isnt an image of a plane of existence.


Dumped into a yellow portal by someone whose sole power is to use the speed force, aided by spirits of dead speed force users. Gee, I wonder if the speed force has anything to do with it.


> Well, that requires first showing that there was something for them to be thrown into. Hence why I said "hyperbole"


Emoboy Prime _didn't_ get thrown into a shiny yellow speed force portal?


> Oh, I guess that means you lack the ability to infer.
> 
> Well, not too surprising, I guess.


No, it means Darsh has never to my knowledge resisted anything even comparable to speed force powers. This is hax, you've either got resistance or you don't.


TehChron said:


> Its got a penicillin and reality warping barrier.
> 
> There is no reason to assume that there isnt gonna be at least one barrier that can defend against a speed steal before DS pastes Wally in the time it takes to try that shit.


Except for the fact that there's no reason to assume that there is. Proof or concede.


TehChron said:


> Dispel Bound would just negate the speed steal regardless.


[Citation needed]


> ]But as far as IMP goes, how does that attack work? How long does it take for a Flash to use it?


He hits someone really, really fast. And he's the Flash, how long do you think?


> If he can use it at a pace to keep up and surpass the Dispel Bounds regeneration rate, then he can eventually get through them to hit DS.


He's stated he could punch Zum, a speedster, a thousand times before he could blink.


> But thats assuming that he can do that and also defend against Darsh's attacks at the same time, which I dont know, tbqh.


>13 trillion c versus 7000 c
>Doesn't know whether or not Flash can survive
>


Fluttershy said:


> saying DB can negate inertia manipulation of *any* level would be NLF


Good. I'm glad someone has some vestiges of reason here.


> that said, I'm not sure how to quantify speed steal .. does energy for DC/durability matter there ? or only speed of a character ?


It worked on Inertia, a Flash-tier speedster. I'm still waiting for Darsh's resistance feats.


TehChron said:


> Whats the most energy that Wally has absorbed with Speed Steal, and then we can check it up against the commonly accepted limits of Dispel Bound to see if it works, right?


He stopped a Inertia. And that's really the end of it. You lose.

Although I'm still waiting for proof Darsh could get out of the Speed Force.


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## Tacocat (Jun 20, 2013)

Wasn't Inertia on some speedforce pills or something because his powers weren't working properly? Or was that just when Bart died?

Well, it doesn't really matter if amateur Jay can steal from Superman.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 20, 2013)

but that's just post-crisis Superman, right ? non-amped/non-sundipped at that ? 


 - if this calc is valid and applies to this version of DS then his shields can handle ~4-5 billion supernovas ?


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## willyvereb (Jun 20, 2013)

Well, inverse square law would have a say in it but at least I think we can safely claim that they took the equivalent of multiple supernovas, star system level+.


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## Nevermind (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeah, it applies because the other Seraphs also survived without a scratch. The total energy was 8.9 billion.

But I can pretty much tell that it's time to lock this thread.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

wait, when the fuck did this reach 10 whole pages


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## Nevermind (Jun 20, 2013)

Because of the weirdness of the facets of the matchup and the Comic Autism Squad of 2013.


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## Tacocat (Jun 20, 2013)

Wait, we do it by energy he steals rather than strictly speed values? How does that work with FTL shit? 

In any case, I don't even know shit about the other guy in this thread. I only came to tell Flutter about that one scan


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## Tacocat (Jun 20, 2013)

Okay


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## Erudite Ape (Jun 20, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Wasn't Inertia on some speedforce pills or something because his powers weren't working properly? Or was that just when Bart died?


I'm pretty sure the Velocity 9, or whatever it's called, was after Infinite Crisis. He was still natural speedster at this point.


> Well, it doesn't really matter if amateur Jay can steal from Superman.


Also, this.


Lucaniel said:


> wait, when the fuck did this reach 10 whole pages


2:21 EDT, if I'm not mistaken. This sort of thing happens when you guys wank the hell out of a character.


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## Solar (Jun 20, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> In any case, I don't even know shit about the other guy in this thread. I only came to tell Flutter about that one scan



Bitch made. 



Erudite Ape said:


> 2:21 EDT, if I'm not mistaken. This sort of thing happens when you guys wank the hell out of a character.



Autistic.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 20, 2013)

Berny is back? 



Bernkastel said:


> Autistic.


You would be surprised


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## Erudite Ape (Jun 20, 2013)

Bernkastel said:


> Autistic.


While it's cool that you feel comfortable enough here to share the details of your mental health, I really don't think anyone here needs, or particularly cares, to know.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

Erudite Ape said:


> While it's cool that you feel comfortable enough here to share the details of your mental health, I really don't think anyone here needs to, or particularly cares to know.



look

he said 'no u'

but with more words


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## Saitomaru (Jun 20, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> look
> 
> he said 'no u'
> 
> but with more words



You have to give him credit, that is a much more creative way of saying 'no you'.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

frankly, i would've been more amused if he said 'no u'

because what he actually said has a strong sense that he's actually satisfied, or in some way feels that he's put one over on his opponent, by essentially saying 'no u'

and that elicits nothing but contempt


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 20, 2013)

Erudong said:
			
		

> Either way, comparing post counts


Relevant


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## Solar (Jun 20, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Berny is back?


Not really. Just saw that this thread had a lot of posts and figured something was going on.


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)

Good last time I checked I sent you to the Dark Gods. Go back to being dead before they realise you're gone


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## Solar (Jun 20, 2013)

Es said:


> Good last time I checked I sent you to the Dark Gods. Go back to being dead before they realise you're gone


I'll be back for a rematch. Someday.


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)

Bernkastel said:


> I'll be back for a rematch. Someday.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 20, 2013)

Bernkastel said:


> Not really. Just saw that this thread had a lot of posts and figured something was going on.


Ok then. That's sad


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

what's with the bug-eyed cyclops dude es

is he your ideal


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> what's with the bug-eyed cyclops dude es
> 
> is he your ideal







Psyklop is perfection Luc


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

that eye will forever make me shudder


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Solar (Jun 20, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Ok then. That's sad



I know.


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Solar (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeah, that's what I imagined your expression would be.


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> that eye will forever make me shudder



You mammalians just can't appreciate his superior monoeye


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)

Based Psyklop


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 20, 2013)

Es said:


> You mammalians just can't appreciate his superior monoeye


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## Nevermind (Jun 20, 2013)

[youtube]YjqdlceLAdw[/youtube]

THAT'S WHAT I DO


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

i'm fine with mono-eyes, i just don't like bugs


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

for example


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i'm fine with mono-eyes, i just don't like bugs


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

gross-ass shit



kill it


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 20, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i'm fine with mono-eyes, i just don't like bugs


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

i like that fanart because it reminds me of the style of official metal gear solid artwork


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

uva doesn't count, he's more like some kind of biological armour in the vein of zetman


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## MegaultraHay (Jun 20, 2013)

Erudite Ape said:


> While it's cool that you feel comfortable enough here to share the details of your mental health, I really don't think anyone here needs, or particularly cares, to know.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 20, 2013)

This thread is suddenly less terrible, let's keep it going in that direction


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## willyvereb (Jun 20, 2013)

Or might as well lock it.
You have the convo to continue this on.


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)

let me post one more Psyklop image and we're good


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

and for the final proper post itt (with any luck)

^ (use bro)


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

DON'T YOU DARE POST ANY OF YOU


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

>es trying it on

get out you cheeky kunt i swear i'll rek u m8


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

you evil shit

i'll have you


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

how are you constantly managing to post JUST ahead of me


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

AHAHAHAHA GOT YOU NOW


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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm good now, you may lock.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Es (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)




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