# Tobirama Vs Obito



## Trojan (Sep 15, 2013)

Location: Konoha
Intel: Full for Obito, none for Tobirama
Distance:like here
State Of Mind: IC
Restrictions: None. 

This is the same event when obito attacked Konoha, everything the same except 
1- It's Tobirama instead of Minato obviously. 
2- Tobirama has only seal on his statue, but if he want to make more he can of course.


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## Coppur (Sep 15, 2013)

An interesting one, Tobirama wouldn't be able to do it quite as easily as Minato due to not having Hiraishin level 2. Although I imagine he could figure out Obito's weakness, but being able to stop it is the problem. I can't think of a way for Tobirama to hit Obito. The infinite explosions can be absorbed into the Kamui dimension and his suiton can simply be dodged. However, due to Tobirama's intelligence, I'm fairly certain he could come up with something. So I think it is a tie as of now, but I'm slightly leaning towards Tobirama.


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## t0xeus (Sep 15, 2013)

Can Tobirama summon his elder onii-chan.. ?


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## Trojan (Sep 15, 2013)

t0xeus said:


> Can Tobirama summon his elder onii-chan.. ?



mm well, I supposed yes, but Hashirama shall be weaker than how he was in part 1.
(since Tobirama's edo is weaker than Oro's)


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## t0xeus (Sep 16, 2013)

Then I think that it would be Tobirama's victory, cause seriously, Tobi hasn't got anything to finish off Tobirama, when he sucks him in the the other dimension, Tobirama can probably simply Hiraishin no Jutsu back.. And with Tobirama's intelligency, as mentioned by Coppur, he would figure out how Obito's Kamui works soon.

So I think Tobirama would win this, not in an instant, but in front of Tobi, he has stuff to finish him off.


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## Trojan (Sep 16, 2013)

^

1- Tobirama's FTG is slower than Minato's, so it's not necessarily that he can do the same thing! 
2- Minato used FTG level 2 via Kunai to hit obito, Tobirama can't do that, does he have another way?
3- Remember that Kurama is still there, and Tobirama has to deal with it as well! 

because even IF he did defeat obito, what is he going to do against Kurama?


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## t0xeus (Sep 16, 2013)

Well, like speed doesn't matter, I think, even if he sucked him in, he could just teleport back to the mark on his statue.

We still dont know, how strong abilities could Hashirama use, but if it wouldn't be enough, to stop Kyuubi, then from what we know, Tobirama doesn't have any seal to get rid of Kyuubi (still I think that he has to have some stuff to take care of bijuus, Hashirama had to teach him something), then it would go: Tobi < Tobirama < Kyuubi.


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## Rocky (Sep 16, 2013)

It's questionable whether or not Tobirama has the skill set to deal with Obito, but he definitely cannot defeat Kurama here. Fuinjutsu is a necessity.


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## Jagger (Sep 16, 2013)

Tobirama's only strategy against the Kyuubi would be marking it and teleporting it out of the battlefield, but Obito negates that by summoning Kurama back. He loses.


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## trance (Sep 16, 2013)

Tobirama can summon his brother who can just suppress Kurama, right?


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## Trojan (Sep 16, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Tobirama can summon his brother who can just suppress Kurama, right?



Hashirama should be weaker than in part 1. I doubt that he can stop Kurama in that amount of power


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## Sans (Sep 16, 2013)

t0xeus said:


> Well, like speed doesn't matter, I think, even if he sucked him in, he could just teleport back to the mark on his statue.
> 
> We still dont know, how strong abilities could Hashirama use, but if it wouldn't be enough, to stop Kyuubi, then from what we know, Tobirama doesn't have any seal to get rid of Kyuubi (still I think that he has to have some stuff to take care of bijuus, Hashirama had to teach him something), then it would go: Tobi < Tobirama < Kyuubi.



Both Obito and Minato, masters of space-time ninjutsu, viewed Obito's Kamui as superior to Hiraishin. They also both believed that Obito successfully ensnaring Minato in his alternate dimension would conclude the match in Obito's favour.

Based on those two points, I find it unlikely that Tobirama can Hiraishin out of Kamui's dimension.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2013)

The battle might have went differently if Minato wasn't trying to protect Naruto and subsequently save Kushina.

I'm sure Minato would have had the upper hand if he'd simply attacked without those distractions. Tobirama won't have these distractions as he could probably care less for Kushina and a single child over the sake of the village. 

He doesn't possess the power to counter Kurama, he can't even defeat Obito.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 16, 2013)

Coppur said:


> An interesting one, Tobirama wouldn't be able to do it quite as easily as Minato due to not having Hiraishin level 2. Although I imagine he could figure out Obito's weakness, but being able to stop it is the problem. I can't think of a way for Tobirama to hit Obito. The infinite explosions can be absorbed into the Kamui dimension and his suiton can simply be dodged. However, due to Tobirama's intelligence, I'm fairly certain he could come up with something. So I think it is a tie as of now, but I'm slightly leaning towards Tobirama.



There is no such thing as hiraishin level 2. Check the VIZ translation. Read TaKL comments. Read Shounensuki's comments on this board and on Naruto wiki discussion pages. Minato said hiraishin step 2. Step 1, throw a kunai, step 2 move to the kunai. Hiraishin is hiraishin is hiraishin. There are no levels. That was a bad translation



Elia said:


> ^
> 
> 1- Tobirama's FTG is slower than Minato's, so it's not necessarily that he can do the same thing!



No it is not. Tobirama said his SHUNSHIN is slower. Minato did not teleport tot he battlefield. They all ran to the battlefield using shunshin



Elia said:


> 2- Minato used FTG level 2 via Kunai to hit obito, Tobirama can't do that, does he have another way?





There is no such thing as level 2. It was hiraishin step 2. Of course Tobirama could do that. Heck, he could throw a stone and teleport to the stone.

You guys really need to read Shounensuki's comments on hiraishin. He went into details. The Chinese raw also says step 2. So, we have Viz, TaKL, a native speaker of Japanese and Shounensuki, an old reliable translators and the chinese raw, all say step 2



Komnenos said:


> Both Obito and Minato, masters of space-time ninjutsu, viewed Obito's Kamui as superior to Hiraishin. *They also both believed that Obito successfully ensnaring Minato in his alternate dimension would conclude the match in Obito's favour*.
> .



Where did they both agree this was the case?


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## Trojan (Sep 16, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> No it is not. Tobirama said his SHUNSHIN is slower. Minato did not teleport tot he battlefield. They all ran to the battlefield using shunshin
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- yes it is. Minato used FTG when he appeared in front of Naruto + Hashi told Tobirama to use 
FTG 
*FRS produces a raw explosion comparable to a bijuudama's *
And when minato used FTG against obito tobirama called it shunshin as well 
*FRS produces a raw explosion comparable to a bijuudama's *

You should give credits when it's due. Minato is better than Tobirama in both FTG and shunshin

- I'm sure viz translate it as level 2 
Also, if I'm not mistaken takl said that's word can be as step 2 or level 2 
You just took what you want 

As for the stone this is IC Tobirama, since when he was doing such things??

Edit:


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2013)

How the hell can minato have a better hiraishin then tobirama when its the same fn jutsu. This is not like rasengan when the user can add chakra to intensify the technique. The only thing minato does is teleport to a moving object (step 2), there is no "level". Minato also has shown the ability to spread his markings rather easily over tobirama

Minato is superior in shushin as stated and observed in the manga


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## Trojan (Sep 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> How the hell can minato have a better hiraishin then tobirama when its the same fn jutsu. This is not like rasengan when the user can add chakra to intensify the technique. The only thing minato does is teleport to a moving object (step 2), there is no "level". Minato also has shown the ability to spread his markings rather easily over tobirama
> 
> Minato is superior in shushin as stated and observed in the manga



Just how oro and kabuto is better than him in Edo even though its the same jutsu!!! 

Minato's FTG is faster!


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## J★J♥ (Sep 16, 2013)

Elia said:


> Edit:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Where can i read this translation ?


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## Kai (Sep 16, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Where did they both agree this was the case?


Tobi: * "He teleported..... Next time I'll warp you the moment I lay my hand on you.''*

Minato: *"It comes down to speed.... whoever strikes first will win!"*

Heavily implies Kamui is lethal to Minato and he can not escape with Hiraishin.


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## Samehadaman (Sep 16, 2013)

Is "hiraishin v2" a real thing, or just what you people call putting the seal on a kunai and throwing it?


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## Trojan (Sep 16, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Where can i read this translation ?



It's viz, you have to buy it, or perhaps if some one put the pics online.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2013)

Elia said:


> Just how oro and kabuto is better than him in Edo even though its the same jutsu!!!
> 
> Minato's FTG is faster!



Apples to oranges

As I stated in my first post jutstus like rasengan and or edo tensei can very for numerous reasons. Hiraishin and obitos kumai are special cases that go against basic principles(well manga principles).

It doesn't matter how much chakra or the way its used . You can't travel faster then instant. Now if your talking at who's better at using it then its entitely different. This can range from ease of use or who activates it first. Like stated above its kind of a special case


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## Trojan (Sep 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Apples to oranges
> 
> As I stated in my first post jutstus like rasengan and or edo tensei can very for numerous reasons. Hiraishin and obitos kumai are special cases that go against basic principles(well manga principles).
> 
> It doesn't matter how much chakra or the way its used . You can't travel faster then instant. Now if your talking at who's better at using it then its entitely different. This can range from ease of use or who activates it first. Like stated above its kind of a special case



Being a tobirama fanboy it's a shame that you don't even know about his jutsu or what 
He said!! 

FTG CAN BE SLOWER, it's only tobiramas fanboys that won't accept manga fact! 
*"It comes down to speed.... whoever strikes first will win!"*

As you can see what tobirama said is enough proof, if you seek truth of course!


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## J★J♥ (Sep 16, 2013)

Elia said:


> It's viz, you have to buy it, or perhaps if some one put the pics online.



Thanks.


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## Quab (Sep 16, 2013)

Tobirama loses this one.

Obito has full knowledge and the Kyuubi.  It'd be hardpressed that Tobirama to beat both at the same time (with no knowledge).

Obito also can catch Tobirama offguard and lay his Kamui warp.  It was heavily implied that Obito didn't take Minato seriously that's why he didn't warp Minato the moment he layed his hand on Minato [1].

And FTG cannot escape Kamui's pocket dimesion (as prescribed by both Minato and Obito).  It's surely because Kamui's pocket dimension can only be escaped if the user has Kamui.  *One cannot open a portal to or from Kamui's pocket dimension unless he/she has the jutsu (hence only Kakashi and Obito have ever appeared from it or used it).*


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 16, 2013)

Elia said:


> Just how oro and kabuto is better than him in Edo even though its the same jutsu!!!
> 
> Minato's FTG is faster!


Prove it.

When Tobirama and Minato used Goshun Mawashi, they both used FTG and switched places at the exact same moment. Their FTG is the same in speed. Don't try to use your opinions as fact. Tobirama is also a high-level sensor with Minato-level or even higher reactions. And this was a clone.


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## Trojan (Sep 16, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Prove this.
> 
> When Tobirama and Minato used 	Goshun Mawash, they both used FTG and switched places at the exact moment. Their FTG is the same in speed. Don't try to use your opinions as fact. Tobirama is also a high-level sensor with Minato-level or even higher reactions.



Not sure if serious 
I already proved that, tobirama admitted it himself!! 

And your example is such a poor one, since they combine their Jutsus, so of course that
What will happen, just like combining FRS with Enton does not mean that they are at the 
Same speed or power!


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## Sans (Sep 16, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Where did they both agree this was the case?



Kai beat me to it.

Both Shinobi acted like a successful use of Kamui would end the battle.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 16, 2013)

Elia said:


> - yes it is. Minato used FTG when he appeared in front of Naruto + Hashi told Tobirama to use
> FTG
> Here
> And when minato used FTG against obito tobirama called it shunshin as well
> ...



Answer this. Minato teleported Hiruzen and Tobirama teleported Hashirama. If Minato used hiraishin to get to the battlefield, how come he got there before Hiruzen?

Then answer this question. If the hokages used hiraishin to get tot he battlefield, how come we saw them jumping from the hokage mountain?



Elia said:


> - I'm sure viz translate it as level 2
> Also, if I'm not mistaken takl said that's word can be as step 2 or level 2
> You just took what you want



No. TaKL said it is Step 2 and him shounensuki even discussed the correct translation. 



Elia said:


> As for the stone this is IC Tobirama, since when he was doing such things??
> 
> Edit:



1. VIZ translates shunshin as teleportation 
2. There is no such thing as level 2 hiraishin


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## Senjuclan (Sep 16, 2013)

Kai said:


> Tobi: * "He teleported..... Next time I'll warp you the moment I lay my hand on you.''*
> 
> Minato: *"It comes down to speed.... whoever strikes first will win!"*
> 
> Heavily implies Kamui is lethal to Minato and he can not escape with Hiraishin.



1. The first example is Tobi stating something. Minato does not agree to it because it is Tobi's thought
2. The second example is Minato saying that whoever STRIKES first wins not that if Tobi sucks me into his dimension, I lose. Minato was planning on using his S/T to strike Tobi with a kunai. So, you can't say that he was referring to S/T necessarily


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 16, 2013)

Elia said:


> Not sure if serious
> I already proved that, tobirama admitted it himself!!
> 
> And your example is such a poor one, since they combine their Jutsus, so of course that
> ...


Post the scan where Tobirama admits this. Go ahead, I'll wait. If you prove me wrong I'll concede. And if you're going to use your own Manga reader to prove your point, I can do the same.


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## Trojan (Sep 16, 2013)

^ 

I already did in the first page!!! 
Anyway, I'll return after my classes );


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 16, 2013)

Found it, now I'm just going to ask takL if this scan is true or not. If it isn't, your point about Tobirama's FTG being slower than Minato's is invalid.


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## Rocky (Sep 16, 2013)

I believe the scan refers to the body flicker, which is commonly refereed to as the "teleportation technique".

Hiraishin is instantaneous.....so it can't really be slower, now can it.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 16, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Found it, now I'm just going to ask takL if this scan is true or not. If it isn't, your point about Tobirama's FTG being slower than Minato's is invalid.



The scan does not say what he claims. Tobirama says shunshin but VIZ translates it as teleportation. He knows it too but pretends otherwise


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## Garcher (Sep 16, 2013)

Tobirama wins via hype


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 16, 2013)

> the word in the raw is shunshin "4th, you're a better shunshin user than me, yea"
> 
> i think hiraishin is one of shunshin techniques
> shunshin means the body that moves in an eye's blink


These are takL's comments. Once again Elia, you're blinded by your opinions being facts


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## Jagger (Sep 16, 2013)

Shunshin =/= Teleporting at the speed of light. The first one is a common jutsu used by most of people and the speed of it varies between the users, thus, some are slower and some faster. Shisui was considered a master of this jutsu and A uses a variation of it with his lightning affinity.

FTG moves at the speed of light, one can't be slower than the other one, there's no point of discussing that.


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## Dominus (Sep 16, 2013)

Elia said:


> - yes it is. Minato used FTG when he appeared in front of Naruto + Hashi told Tobirama to use
> FTG
> *"It comes down to speed.... whoever strikes first will win!"*
> And when minato used FTG against obito tobirama called it shunshin as well
> ...



Viz always translates Shunshin as teleportation, but it isn't... Sasuke and Jūgo arrived at almost the same time as the Hokage and Minato and Tobirama didn't have marks on the battlefield so they didn't use Hiraishin to get to the battlefield.


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## Coppur (Sep 16, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Viz always translates Shunshin as teleportation, but it isn't... Sasuke and Jūgo arrived at almost the same time as the Hokage and Minato and Tobirama didn't have marks on the battlefield so they didn't use Hiraishin to get to the battlefield.



Actually, we know at least Minato was using Hiraishin at the time, as seen when he was arriving at the battlefield in chapter 630, apologies for not linking it, I'm on my phone right now and having some formatting trouble.
I imagine that Minato transported the others via Hiraishin as well, but Minato went ahead to deal with the bijuu bomb.


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## Sans (Sep 17, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. The first example is Tobi stating something. Minato does not agree to it because it is Tobi's thought
> 2. The second example is Minato saying that whoever STRIKES first wins not that if Tobi sucks me into his dimension, I lose. Minato was planning on using his S/T to strike Tobi with a kunai. So, you can't say that he was referring to S/T necessarily



The first example shows Obito confident in the success of Kamui, again indicating that he believes the alternate dimension can contain Minato.

The second example clearly refers to Kamui in Obito's case. Obito has already used Kamui, and only Kamui. Minato believes that if Obito can land his technique, he will lose (not win).

Minato has also praised Obito's space time jutsu. While it's clearly not as fast, it's more than above Hiraishin in terms of dimensional travel.


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## Dominus (Sep 17, 2013)

Coppur said:


> Actually, we know at least Minato was using Hiraishin at the time, as seen when he was arriving at the battlefield in chapter 630, apologies for not linking it, I'm on my phone right now and having some formatting trouble.
> I imagine that Minato transported the others via Hiraishin as well, but Minato went ahead to deal with the bijuu bomb.



We just know that he threw that kunai in front of Naruto and teleported there, they didn't have any marks on the battlefield before they got there.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 17, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> The first example shows Obito confident in the success of Kamui, again indicating that he believes the alternate dimension can contain Minato.
> 
> The second example clearly refers to Kamui in Obito's case. Obito has already used Kamui, and only Kamui. Minato believes that if Obito can land his technique, he will lose (not win).
> 
> Minato has also praised Obito's space time jutsu. While it's clearly not as fast, it's more than above Hiraishin in terms of dimensional travel.



1. Confidence in the potency of a Justu means nothing. Hashirama, the shinobi no kami himself, thought he could restrain Jyuubito with his sage mode Torii gates but guess what they failed. Jiraiya thought he could kill Itachi and Kisame with his esophagus but failed too. I can give you more examples. Just because Tobi thinks something can't be done does not make it so
2. The second example does not refer to kamui. Minato said it comes down to speed, he who strikes first wins. However, Minato was going to use a rasengan, are you saying that Minato's rasengan is faster than kamui?  It is quite simple, Minato says if I strike him first but he means if I strike him first with rasengan, I win. What does it say about Tobi? If he strikes me first, he wins. How can you conclude that strike = use kamui? It's not like Minato knew all his abilities and since Minato thought he was battling Madara, do you really think that he thought Madara's move set was limited to kamui?
3. Praising kamui was never in question. The question is whether or not Minato agreed that once sucked into Kamui's dimension he could not teleport back
4. Logically it makes no sense that Minato could not teleport back. Kakashi could so why the heck would Minato not be able to?


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## Trojan (Sep 17, 2013)

Sorry for making you wait, I was waiting for Takl to make sure of something! 




Rocky said:


> I believe the scan refers to the body flicker, which is commonly refereed to as the "teleportation technique".
> *
> Hiraishin is instantaneous.....so it can't really be slower, now can it*.



Yes, it can be slower that was proven by Tobirama himself. 



Waffle said:


> These are takL's comments. Once again Elia, you're blinded by your opinions being facts



you talk as if takl did not say this


> i think hiraishin is one of shunshin techniques
> shunshin means the body that moves in an eye's blink



Also, in this page
out of Susanoo

Tobirama called the FTG as a shunshin! and I asked takl for his translation and he said



> Tobirama: Shunshin* no jutsu via kagebunshin...
> He had his mark put on the guy? (=the guy had minatos marking on his body?)
> 
> 
> *im guessing Hiraishin is one (and the best) of the forms of shunshin no jutsu.



So, FTG CAN be called as shunshin, and since Tobirama said so, then that's what he meant! 






Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Viz always translates Shunshin as teleportation, but it isn't... Sasuke and Jūgo arrived at almost the same time as the Hokage and Minato and Tobirama didn't have marks on the battlefield so they didn't use Hiraishin to get to the battlefield.



1- I already posted that Hashi told Tobirama to USE FTG!!
2- When Minato arrived Kishi SHOWED as his FTG!
out of Susanoo
out of Susanoo

that was NOT shunshin!

it's only logical to assume they used BOTH FTG AND shunshin! 
Minato maybe had some marks around from his lifetime, and perhaps they teleported to the
nearest location, and then the continued  by shunshin. 

Why am I saying that? 

1- the Hokages were  in konoha, and we know from the first arc that traveling from Konoha
to Suna takes 3 days! Kumo is even further than that!

2- The Hokages took 4 chapters to arrive, and Minato 3 chapters
and as I said they started from konoha!

So how is it possible to take this little time for them, while the Gokage who they ARE
in the battlefield took even more 12 chapters up until now? Not to mention Minato's shunshin
IS slower than the Raikage's, and even that he needed to be teleported to Madara's location 
so he can be there in time!!

Of course I can understand if you  said perhaps the Hokages are faster even without FTG
but old Hiruzen is surely not that fast, so how come even he managed to do that? 

 even Sasuke and Jugo (?) were not looking tired after ALL that distance? Does not make
sence if you asked me! 

another example is Naruto, how many chapter it took for him to arrive to the battlefield, even though he was in the same country!


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 17, 2013)

> you talk as if takl did not say this


He already confirmed that Teleportation = Shunshin. I'm waiting for your concession.


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## Trojan (Sep 17, 2013)

Waffle said:


> He already confirmed that Teleportation = Shunshin. I'm waiting for your concession.



I think I'm repeating myself over and over again!

out of Susanoo
Explain why Tobirama said shunshin in that page even though Minato used FTG? 

you know what?Forget about it! 
this is Not about Minato and Tobirama anyway!

it's OBIITO Vs Tobirama!


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## Dominus (Sep 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> 1- I already posted that Hashi told Tobirama to USE FTG!!
> 2- When Minato arrived Kishi SHOWED as his FTG!
> out of Susanoo
> out of Susanoo
> ...



We just know that he threw that kunai in front of Naruto and teleported, everything else is just an assumption (having marks on the battlefield or close to it, how they got there, how much time it took them to get there...)


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## Trojan (Sep 17, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> We just know that he threw that kunai in front of Naruto and teleported, everything else is just an assumption (having marks on the battlefield or close to it, how they got there, how much time it took them to get there...)



1- and the Kunai is used for FTG. 
2- Minato was fighting A & B in the war in case you forgot, and he was throwing
his Kunais around.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> I think I'm repeating myself over and over again!
> 
> out of Susanoo
> Explain why Tobirama said shunshin in that page even though Minato used FTG?
> ...


Nice strawman. I'm done debating. You can't accept when you're proven wrong and you just grasp at anything you find to accommodate your needs.


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## Trojan (Sep 17, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Nice strawman. I'm done debating. You can't accept when you're proven wrong and you just grasp at anything you find to accommodate your needs.



whatever bro, whatever. 
if the manga is not enough for you, I can't do anything to you.
you did not even tried to explain what Tobi said in that link!
or what Hashi said in chapter 627


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## Senjuclan (Sep 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> whatever bro, whatever.
> if the manga is not enough for you, I can't do anything to you.
> you did not even tried to explain what Tobi said in that link!
> or what Hashi said in chapter 627



I will ask you again since you never bothered to answer me

Answer this. Minato teleported Hiruzen and Tobirama teleported Hashirama. If Minato used hiraishin to get to the battlefield, how come he got there before Hiruzen?

Then answer this question. If the hokages used hiraishin to get tot he battlefield, how come we saw them jumping from the hokage mountain?

Those two questions will help you understand that Minato used shunshin no jutsu not hirashin to get to the battlefield.


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## Trojan (Sep 17, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> I will ask you again since you never bothered to answer me
> 
> Answer this. Minato teleported Hiruzen and Tobirama teleported Hashirama. If Minato used hiraishin to get to the battlefield, how come he got there before Hiruzen?
> 
> ...



Sorry, I quoted the last things, and I forgot to reply to you. My apology. 

1- as I said before, what we know is the FACT that they did use FTG, as Hashi said to Tobirama.  The more likely thing* IMO* is that they teleported to the nearest location that has their marks.  (Minato Vs A & B) & (Tobirama Vs Kin & Gin) and after that they used their shunshin! 

2- They wanted to be in top of their statues. 
 if you can see each one of them is on top of his statue. That's what Hashi wanted and they
did that for him, I honestly don't even know what was the point for them to do that! 

- Yes, So, all what they said about using FTG was bullshit and they tried only to fool us
and even the Kunai we saw is also was to distract us, and Minato actually did not use FTG
to appear in front of Naruto! 

also, out of nowhere, Minato's shunshin is faster than the Raikage's and even Naruto's. 

anyway, I know it's hard to except that, but that what Kishi want! It was established since


O.k let's forget about it, whatever Tobirama's fans want to be, let it be. 

I don't like long debates. ~.~


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## Senjuclan (Sep 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> Sorry, I quoted the last things, and I forgot to reply to you. My apology.
> 
> 1- as I said before, what we know is the FACT that they did use FTG, as Hashi said to Tobirama.  The more likely thing* IMO* is that they teleported to the nearest location that has their marks.  (Minato Vs A & B) & (Tobirama Vs Kin & Gin) and after that they used their shunshin!
> 
> ...



1. We know they used hiraishin to jump to the mountain. No one disputes that. The question is whether or not they used it to get to the battlefield
2. By saying that they used hiraishin, THEN SHUNSHIN you just conceded that your argument is wrong since Tobirama had no way to know how fast Minato teleported since they went to different locations
3. The point of me bringing up the mountain scene is to show you that they did not use hiraishin to leave the village
4. Dude, you need to read the manga carefully. They used hiraishin to get to the mountaintop. Hashirama wanted them to see the village as inspiration. Then, they shunshin'ed. When Minato got to the battlefield, he set up kunai for future FTG use
5. It is not that you hate long debates but rather that you want to save face cuz we destroyed your argument. Concession accepted


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## Dominus (Sep 18, 2013)

Elia said:


> 1- and the Kunai is used for FTG.
> 2- Minato was fighting A & B in the war in case you forgot, and he was throwing
> his Kunais around.



I know that, but I'm saying that we just know that Minato used Hiraishin to teleport in front of Naruto, we don't know if he used Hiraishin to get to the battlefield. I'm not sure if you understand me, what I'm trying to say is that he could've used Shunshin to get to the battlefield and then teleported in front of Naruto with Hiraishin.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Sep 18, 2013)

Elia said:


> Location: Konoha
> Intel: Full for Obito, none for Tobirama
> Distance:like here
> State Of Mind: IC
> ...



LMAO, the Kyuubi would rape Tobirama, no need for obito....

ANd think about it, how in the hell can tobirama possibly even touch Obito and keep himself form being sent to the next dimension to die of thirst 3 days later...
It Minato's Level of physical speed/reflexes Plus Hirahsin level 2 and 3 to nullify and effectively attack Obito and the Kyuubi... ANd Tobirama ONLY has level 1 Hirahsin, but without Kunai seal, coupled with physical speed/reflexes that are nothing special at all...so Only through direct contact can use hirahsin level 1 which took Hirahsin level 2 Plus Minato level of physical speed and relfexes just to do, thus Tobirama cannot do shit!!!

Tobirama loses easily... His is no match for Obito back then... Much less obito and the Kyuubi...


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## Bonly (Sep 18, 2013)

More or less the same as Minato vs Obito only difference is that Kurama won't be stopped by Tobi which means Kurama can do some heavy damage to the village as well as the fight going on longer in a stalemate fashion. In the end Obito should win.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Sep 18, 2013)

Is anyone, fan or not actually going ot argue that Tobirama with ONLY Hiraishin level 1, but no Kunai, just direct Contact, which is his ONLY chance of winning, but will never work against Obito who uses Kamui to instantly displace the part/s of his body that are physically touched by the enemy, making even touching him impossible Almost...

Water jutsu...
Low level edo summons...
Hiraishin level 1 with Only direct contact...
All of it is completely useless against obito...

It took Minato, with his V2 Raikage level reflexes and physical speed+Hirashin level 2 counter just to finally TOUCH Obito with his Kamui hax, thus beat him at will....
Therefore Tobirama CANNOT possibly hit much less touch Obito with his level of reflexes/physical speed and a direct touch ONLY hirashin level 1... NO WAY!!!!

And what about the Kyuubi? It tool Hirahsin level freaking 3 to deal with him, redirecting it's bijuudama to protect the village and himself... As well as the ability to teleport things away with INDIRECT contact, thus teleporting the Kyuubi and it's Bijuudama to another location by touching gamabunta, who is touching the Kyuubi, who is touching it;s Bijuudama...

Thus, yet another thing Tobirama cannot do! He has confimred himself he can ONLY teleport ONE THING at a time with his Hiraishin, and Only with direct contact too...

CONCLUSION:
Tobirama talks big, attacks Obito, goes right through him then gets Kamui'ed to the next dimension to die of thirst 3 days later or drink his water jutsu until he runs out of chakra, then dies of thirst...

IMO, Obito gets seriously underestimated even though he took on BM naruto, hachibi B, Gated Gai and Kamui spamming Kakashi at the SAME TIME TOO, without even using his RG, just the same Kamui hax... 
Obito with his Kamui hax of being able to walk right through ANY scale of jutsu and then just quickly pop up and suck up his enemy into the next dimension to parish...
Hell, I doubt hashirama could do what Minato did... Lets make the thread...


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## Senjuclan (Sep 18, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Is anyone, fan or not actually going ot argue that Tobirama with ONLY Hiraishin level 1, but no Kunai, just direct Contact, which is his ONLY chance of winning, but will never work against Obito who uses Kamui to instantly displace the part/s of his body that are physically touched by the enemy, making even touching him impossible Almost...



Your bias blinds you. Even fodder like Fuu and Torune figured out how his jutsu works in a few seconds. Tobirama can use kage bunshin to nullify his advantage. Tobi would have to either be immaterial, which means his jutsu won't work or be material, which means he can be tagged. Between tajuu kage bunshin and edo tensei zombies, he can be tagged



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Water jutsu...
> Low level edo summons...
> Hiraishin level 1 with Only direct contact...
> All of it is completely useless against obito...



Remind me how Minato tagged Tobi, was it not through direct contact?



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> It took Minato, with his V2 Raikage level reflexes and physical speed+Hirashin level 2 counter just to finally TOUCH Obito with his Kamui hax, thus beat him at will....
> Therefore Tobirama CANNOT possibly hit much less touch Obito with his level of reflexes/physical speed and a direct touch ONLY hirashin level 1... NO WAY!!!!



Your argument is laughable. Tobirama tagged Jyuubito is MUCH MUCH faster than Tobi and your argument is that he cannot tag slow Tobi? Minato tagged Tobi by touching him. There is no such thing level 2 hiraishin either as translators and VIZ have shown. He tricked him by throwing the kunai and touched him. Tobirama can trick him with kabe bunshin



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> And what about the Kyuubi? It tool Hirahsin level freaking 3 to deal with him, redirecting it's bijuudama to protect the village and himself... As well as the ability to teleport things away with INDIRECT contact, thus teleporting the Kyuubi and it's Bijuudama to another location by touching gamabunta, who is touching the Kyuubi, who is touching it;s Bijuudama...



There is no hiraishin level 3. Tobirama can deal with the kyuubi by having one of his clones teleport it out of the village



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Thus, yet another thing Tobirama cannot do! He has confimred himself he can ONLY teleport ONE THING at a time with his Hiraishin, and Only with direct contact too...



Your bullshit is too funny



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> CONCLUSION:
> Tobirama talks big, attacks Obito, goes right through him then gets Kamui'ed to the next dimension to die of thirst 3 days later or drink his water jutsu until he runs out of chakra, then dies of thirst...
> 
> IMO, Obito gets seriously underestimated even though he took on BM naruto, hachibi B, Gated Gai and Kamui spamming Kakashi at the SAME TIME TOO, without even using his RG, just the same Kamui hax...
> ...



Obito cannot kamui Tobirama because Tobirama is a sensor, which means he would know that Obito is behind him much faster than Minato did. Tobirama has better reflex feats than Minato against Jyuubito


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 18, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Is anyone, fan or not actually going ot argue that Tobirama with ONLY Hiraishin level 1, but no Kunai, just direct Contact, which is his ONLY chance of winning, but will never work against Obito who uses Kamui to instantly displace the part/s of his body that are physically touched by the enemy, making even touching him impossible Almost...



1)There is no level(s) to Hiraishin. How many times does the translations need to get posted before you get this through your head



> Water jutsu...
> Low level edo summons...
> Hiraishin level 1 with Only direct contact...
> All of it is completely useless against obito...



1) His edo Summons may not be as superior to Orochimaru or kabutos however he uses them in an entirely different manner
2)Once again theres no such thing as level 2 hiraishin. 



> It took Minato, with his V2 Raikage level reflexes and physical speed+Hirashin level 2 counter just to finally TOUCH Obito with his Kamui hax, thus beat him at will....
> Therefore Tobirama CANNOT possibly hit much less touch Obito with his level of reflexes/physical speed and a direct touch ONLY hirashin level 1... NO WAY!!!!



1) For the third time there is no such thing as level 2 Hiraishin.
2) Tobirama landed his marks on Juubito who is vastly superior then Tobi in speed
3) Tobirama has shown reflexes on par if not greater then Minato
4) Tobirama is a vastly superior sensor then Minato
5) Tobirama is also superior in the intellegence department



> And what about the Kyuubi? It tool Hirahsin level freaking 3 to deal with him, redirecting it's bijuudama to protect the village and himself... As well as the ability to teleport things away with INDIRECT contact, thus teleporting the Kyuubi and it's Bijuudama to another location by touching gamabunta, who is touching the Kyuubi, who is touching it;s Bijuudama...



1) For the fourth time there is no such thing as level 3 Hiraishin.
2) I will give you that Tobirama has not shown any time of S/T barrier. +1 for Minato




> Thus, yet another thing Tobirama cannot do! He has confimred himself he can ONLY teleport ONE THING at a time with his Hiraishin, and Only with direct contact too...



Bad reading...

Tobirama first implies they could only teleport one away each not knowing Minatos capabilities. Once he askes Hashirama for help that he cannot provide he then rethinks and asks minato if he could teleport more then one. What was he going to have minato teleport three and while he handles one? 



> Tobirama talks big, attacks Obito, goes right through him then gets Kamui'ed to the next dimension to die of thirst 3 days later or drink his water jutsu until he runs out of chakra, then dies of thirst...



Except Tobirama is smarter then Minato, is a superior sensor , has equal or greater reflexes and the same exact S/T jutus....Good luck



> IMO, Obito gets seriously underestimated even though he took on BM naruto, hachibi B, Gated Gai and Kamui spamming Kakashi at the SAME TIME TOO, without even using his RG, just the same Kamui hax...



And what was the KEY jutsus to counter Tobi's S/T jutsus....another S/T jutsu

I have no idea why others including myself respond to anything you post. Your one if not the biggest tobirama hater on this forum


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## Dominus (Sep 18, 2013)

@Senjuclan and Complete_Ownage

Don't even bother... you're answering to Dragon Sage Ash...


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 18, 2013)

An instant's an instant. Both Minato and Tobirama's FTG are the same speed. What Tobirama lacks is the range Minato has.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 18, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> An instant's an instant. Both Minato and Tobirama's FTG are the same speed. What Tobirama lacks is the range Minato has.





 Well said.


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## Coppur (Sep 18, 2013)

Guys, this is OBITO vs. Tobirama, not Minato, the entire thread has been derailed. Although the argument that Minato is faster than Tobirama is ridiculous, you can't get faster than an instant, then again, so is the argument that Tobirama has better reactions than Minato. However, quick question, does Tobirama have a powerful enough close range attack that can actually hit Obito before he goes back into ghost mode? This means no suiton which require a hand seal.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 19, 2013)

Coppur said:


> Guys, this is OBITO vs. Tobirama, not Minato, the entire thread has been derailed. Although the argument that Minato is faster than Tobirama is ridiculous, you can't get faster than an instant, then again, so is the argument that Tobirama has better reactions than Minato. However, quick question, does Tobirama have a powerful enough close range attack that can actually hit Obito before he goes back into ghost mode? This means no suiton which require a hand seal.



This thread was made by Minato fans for a very specific reason, I will let you guess the reason.

Anyways, to answer your question, Tobirama put explosive tags on Jyuubito without him realizing it. He should be able to do that and then some. If Tobi does not know he has an explosive tag on him, he will be messed up pretty bad


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## Coppur (Sep 19, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Anyways, to answer your question, Tobirama put explosive tags on Jyuubito without him realizing it. He should be able to do that and then some. If Tobi does not know he has an explosive tag on him, he will be messed up pretty bad


He was able to get explosive tags on pre-control Juubito, who wasn't sure what was going on, this version of Juubito also didn't show any sort of reaction feats either. If  he got the tag on full-control Juubito this would be a different story. Obito could simply phase through the tags, and warp them away.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 19, 2013)

Coppur said:


> He was able to get explosive tags on pre-control Juubito, who wasn't sure what was going on, this version of Juubito also didn't show any sort of reaction feats either. If  he got the tag on full-control Juubito this would be a different story. Obito could simply phase through the tags, and warp them away.



Pre control Jyuubito is still incredbly fast. You are wrong on the reaction feats. Actually pre-control Jyuubito was fast enough to use his onmyoton to shield himself against he explosives even though he had not seen them on him earlier. That is one of the best reaction feats in the whole manga. He also reacted to Hiruzen's shuriken. So, he definitely does have reaction feats. 

Now, if Tobi has an explosive tag on him and does not realize it. Phasing won't help him because the tag will explode before he knows to phase. Plus, Tobirama could use a kage bunshin to do to him what Konan did. The minute he tries to teleport him, have the tags explode, which would cause a similar amount of damage as rasengan did


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## Ƶero (Sep 19, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> This thread was made by Minato fans for a very specific reason, I will let you guess the reason.
> 
> Anyways, to answer your question, Tobirama put explosive tags on Jyuubito without him realizing it. He should be able to do that and then some. If Tobi does not know he has an explosive tag on him, he will be messed up pretty bad



He "died" to do that. If he wasn't edo he wouldnt have managed that.

I don't think Tobirama can win here simply because he's not fast enough. He already admitted that Minato is faster and he beat Obito by warping to a Kunai with a Hiraishin tag which is something Tobirama cant use. Tobirama also can't do anything to the Kyuubi.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 19, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> He "died" to do that. If he wasn't edo he wouldnt have managed that.



He would use an edo tensei zombie to do that or a clone



Ƶero said:


> I don't think Tobirama can win here simply because he's not fast enough. He already admitted that Minato is faster and he beat Obito by warping to a Kunai with a Hiraishin tag which is something Tobirama cant use. Tobirama also can't do anything to the Kyuubi.



Your argument makes no sense. Tobirama can place a tag on Obito by using a clone. We know he can because he has done it against a faster version of Obito. 

He can also get the kyuubi out of the village by using hiraishin. Whether kyuubi stays controlled or not, he will be out of the village


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