# Luffy vs Admirals



## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

He gets healed after every round.

1. Fujitora
2. Kizaru
3. Aokiji
4. MF Akainu

Can he clear? I think he can clear now.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

I think he loses all of these. I think he loses to full health Kaido too. He doesn’t get dusted or anything. But he gets between high to extreme diff.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Funny 1 | Winner 5 | Useful 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## themightyvoosh (May 27, 2022)

I think he clears.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> I think he loses all of these. I think he loses to full health Kaido too. He doesn’t get dusted or anything. But he gets between high to extreme diff.


But I think the admirals are below Kaido by a good degree based on feats. They lose high diff. Only Post TS Akainu is on his level IMO.


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## Seraphoenix (May 27, 2022)

He clears


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> But I think the admirals are below Kaido by a good degree based on feats. They lose high diff. Only Post TS Akainu is on his level IMO.



Based on what feats? The feat of melting WB’s face off? Or surviving two quakes and no diffing a YC1 (Marco’s) Haki?

We don’t have many feats to go off yet because the Admirals haven’t had their time in the sun yet. It’s coming.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

He looses to Akainu right now. Aokiji and Kizaru depend on how close they are to Akainu. Fujitora really doesn’t have the hype yet to place him on that level, so I believe he would beat Fujitora. Although there is a chance even if he’s stronger then Fujitora he could loose by being tripped up by his DF Powers


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Based on what feats? The feat of melting WB’s face off? Or surviving two quakes and no diffing a YC1 (Marco’s) Haki?
> 
> We don’t have many feats to go off yet because the Admirals haven’t had their time in the sun yet. It’s coming.


Based on what feats are the Admirals superior?

WB was also affected by marines with swords that is not a metric.

So you are saying they are superior because they have no feats? That is not how debates work!

Do they have superior COA, I doubt there is something above level 3.

Do they have superior COO,  I doubt they have something better than FS.

Do they have superior COC, doubt anyone has COC let alone superior to Luffy.

Do they have better DFs, Doubt an awakened Mythical god DF is inferior to any logia.


So he loses to all of them because reasons from an agenda.

Reactions: Winner 6


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Based on what feats? The feat of melting WB’s face off? Or surviving two quakes and no diffing a YC1 (Marco’s) Haki?
> 
> We don’t have many feats to go off yet because the Admirals haven’t had their time in the sun yet. It’s coming.


We saw what the strongest admiral was capable of and he got beat by a severely weakened whitebeard. Kaido and Luffy both have better feats

Akainu could have gotten stronger as he is a future opponent for Luffy. Thats why I have him being stronger than current Luffy and on the same level as Kaido but we can't extend that to the other admirals.

Luffy could split the skies in base and has a god form that even the gorousei fear.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fel1x (May 27, 2022)

replace Akainu with Weevil and Luffy loses

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

He loses to the Fleet Admiral but wins against Fujitora and Kizaru. I'll give Aokiji the benefit of the doubt.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> We saw what the strongest admiral was capable of and he got beat by a severely weakened whitebeard. Kaido and Luffy both have better feats
> 
> Akainu could have gotten stronger as he is a future opponent for Luffy. Thats why I have him being stronger than current Luffy and on the same level as Kaido but we can't extend that to the other admirals.
> 
> Luffy could split the skies in base and has a god form that even the gorousei fear.



What you’d need to prove is that WB couldn’t fell Kaido in two hits if he got two clean hits in.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 3


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> What you’d need to prove is that WB couldn’t fell Kaido in two hits if he got two clean hits in.


Been saying this

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Based on what feats are the Admirals superior?
> 
> WB was also affected by marines with swords that is not a metric.
> 
> ...


By this same logic Current Luffy beats IMU and Teach, because they haven’t shown greater feats yet; and how could their DF Powers possibly be better then a recently awakened and likely not fully mastered God Nika Fruit.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> What you’d need to prove is that WB couldn’t fell Kaido in two hits if he got two clean hits in.


Clean hits?

You mean the Bisento with Gura clad in Adv COC?

O you mean just normal gura punches.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> By this same logic Current Luffy beats IMU and Teach, because they haven’t shown greater feats yet; and how could their DF Powers possibly be better then a recently awakened and likely not fully mastered God Nika Fruit.


Teach has 2 DF to awaken.

Imu can not be scaled as the overlord of the entire story aka JoyBoy's main opponent.


Your point was?

Your logic is that Someone that is a just a top tier did not show us all he must be above something that showed us all and defeated the current top top tier. Your logic is marvelous.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> What you’d need to prove is that WB couldn’t fell Kaido in two hits if he got two clean hits in.


Him taking top tier luffys attacks including bajrang gun plus 15 other people puts him above Akainu.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> By this same logic Current Luffy beats IMU and Teach, because they haven’t shown greater feats yet; and how could their DF Powers possibly be better then a recently awakened and likely not fully mastered God Nika Fruit.


Teach is a dynamic character and Imu is a god that beat Joyboy. I think current Akainu is above Luffy becuase he is a future antagonist but I can't say the same for pre-skip Akainu or the other admirals.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Based on what feats are the Admirals superior?
> 
> WB was also affected by marines with swords that is not a metric.
> 
> ...



It’s not always about feats, especially when we have yet to see the Admirals get their fair due in an arc defining battle.

I’ve heard this from Zoro fans. “Zoro could fight and scar Kaido on the roof, what can King do to him?” (Paraphrasing, but this was a common narrative). Turns out, King was quite a ways stronger than him.

A lack of feats doesn’t paint the entire picture needed.

“Greenbull has no feats… Killer is stronger than him!!!!111”. Is that how it’s done?

Well, they’ve shown Level 2 CoA. Good enough to deflect quakes. Naturally, seeing them pre-skip means we don’t have much knowledge on their other colors just yet.

Just to be perfectly clear. I do not think ALL Admirals are stronger than Kaido. I think Akainu is stronger than Kaido and that’s based on the fact that he will be encountered later down the line. It’s based on the fact that like Teach, he’s the bigger bad. Kaido is not a more important villain in this manga than Akainu.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Him taking top tier luffys attacks including bajrang gun plus 15 other people puts him above Akainu.



So Bajrang Gun > Enraged quakes from the WSM?


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Teach has 2 DF to awaken.
> 
> Imu can not be scaled as the overlord of the entire story aka JoyBoy's main opponent.
> 
> ...


My point is you have no feats from IMU or Teach to suggest this, you are speculating that their awakenings or “overlord” powers will make them able to beat current Luffy. This is the same thing as someone say speculating that Akainu will Awaken his DF (which is said to have the highest AP among DF) to be able to beat Current Luffy.

Basically you have a double standard and clear agenda, despite accusing others of having the agenda


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## Grinningfox (May 27, 2022)

Luffy should clear until these guys show anything worth a damn

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> So Bajrang Gun > Enraged quakes from the WSM?


Yes.

Wait an island fist clad in adv COC and level 3COA is now inferior to WB's Gura that could not uses COC at all.

Are you serious?

Did you even see what WB can do when he is really in Prime, he uses his bisento and add ADV COC on it vs Roger.

Not punches to not kill Akainu.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Grinningfox (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> So Bajrang Gun > Enraged quakes from the WSM?


That Whitebeard was not the WSM

But yes

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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Teach is a dynamic character and Imu is a god that beat Joyboy. I think current Akainu is above Luffy becuase he is a future antagonist but I can't say the same for pre-skip Akainu or the other admirals.


Your speculating that because Teach is a dynamic character and because you think IMU beat Joy Boy that they will be stronger. I can equally speculate that no one went all out at MF as they couldn’t sink the island; and Akainu already had Awakening there and simply didn’t use it as it would have turned MF into Punk Hazard


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> So Bajrang Gun > Enraged quakes from the WSM?


If Akainu took the attack without defending like he did to Whitebeards attack then it would be on the same level.


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## Brian (May 27, 2022)

Bajrang gun will send them all flying

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 27, 2022)

Let Luffy fight all of them together at the once and he still solos.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Upendo Upendo no Mi (May 27, 2022)

With heal in between and no , I think he beats all between very high and extreme diff.

Current (?) Aokiji would be the toughest fight as I think with the power gain after the PH fight, he is a bit stronger than MF Akainu.

Might change my opinion depending on what we see from the Admirals going onward!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> A lack of feats doesn’t paint the entire picture needed.


Yet you have the default as all of them are superior to Luffy.

That is not how it should work but the other way around.

Until someone is proven to be at least as strong as kaido they are not stronger than Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Yes.
> 
> Wait an island fist clad in adv COC and level 3COA is now inferior to WB's Gura that could not uses COC at all.
> 
> ...



This is nonsense.

Pre-skip there were very few established cues for Haki. “Nobody in the war used Hardening because we couldn’t see it!”.

There’s no way to tell what Haki WB used in that instance. We do know he used CoA, so if he used CoA in that moment, why would he hold back with the AdCoC too? I think that’s a fairly logical question, do you have the answers?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> My point is you have no feats from IMU or Teach to suggest this, you are speculating that their awakenings or “overlord” powers will make them able to beat current Luffy. This is the same thing as someone say speculating that Akainu will Awaken his DF (which is said to have the highest AP among DF) to be able to beat Current Luffy.
> 
> Basically you have a double standard and clear agenda, despite accusing others of having the agenda


No mate I know that Teach is stronger because that is what Oda made him.

Akainu us forced by fans to be after BB, that makes zero sense.

Imu can be or not stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 27, 2022)

If Kaido really was the strongest and not just DD/Kata 2.0 then Luffy clears .


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> This is nonsense.
> 
> Pre-skip there were very few established cues for Haki. “Nobody in the war used Hardening because we couldn’t see it!”.
> 
> There’s no way to tell what Haki WB used in that instance. We do know he used CoA, so if he used CoA in that moment, why would he hold back with the AdCoC too? I think that’s a fairly logic question, do you have the answers?


Mate On panel WB could not use COC to save Ace and I mean regular COC.

But of course because it is Akainu he could use it after Ace was dead.

Also he was getting penetrated by Akainu after that hit and of course he couldn't use even regular COA to protect himself but he used Adv COC to destroy Akainu and he also failed because Akainu needs to be strong.


So when AKainu need his dura feats WB used his max adv COC, when he needs defens no COC, no  COA no COO ... marvelous.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> This is nonsense.
> 
> Pre-skip there were very few established cues for Haki. “Nobody in the war used Hardening because we couldn’t see it!”.
> 
> There’s no way to tell what Haki WB used in that instance. We do know he used CoA, so if he used CoA in that moment, why would he hold back with the AdCoC too? I think that’s a fairly logic question, do you have the answers?


He couldn’t use CoC at that time without having a heart attack

ACoC seems a stretch

Reactions: Agree 2


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Your speculating that because Teach is a dynamic character and because you think IMU beat Joy Boy that they will be stronger. I can equally speculate that no one went all out at MF as they couldn’t sink the island; and Akainu already had Awakening there and simply didn’t use it as it would have turned MF into Punk Hazard


You can say the same thing about WB though. He didn't want to harm his men.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Yet you have the default as all of them are superior to Luffy.
> 
> That is not how it should work but the other way around.
> 
> Until someone is proven to be at least as strong as kaido they are not stronger than Luffy.



Exactly. Because I’m not only going off feats. I’m looking at feats, logical progress (of the story) and the circumstances of Luffy’s victory, which are quite frankly, questionable.

If I don’t think Luffy’s win against one of the four strongest pirate forces (Kaido) was completely fair, then why would I think he could beat one of the four strongest navy forces in a fair bout? Kaido went through the gauntlet. THEN Luffy beat him.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> No mate I know that Teach is stronger because that is what Oda made him.
> 
> Akainu us forced by fans to be after BB, that makes zero sense.
> 
> Imu can be or not stronger.


No mate you don’t know because you have no feats. Your making an assumption he’s stronger based on other criteria outside feats, which you won’t allow others to apply to Akainu.
—-
No one is arguing Akainu is after Teach. People are arguing he is after Kaidou, because he is. — in before Sabo truther —-
—
So IMu can be stronger despite lacking feats but Akainu can’t. Yeah again, nothing more then Agenda piece


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Grinningfox said:


> He couldn’t use CoC at that time without having a heart attack
> 
> ACoC seems a stretch



We aren’t talking about anything before the crucial moment where he hit Akainu. He also failed to use CoA against Kizaru at a point. Miraculously, when he needed it most against Akainu, he could then use it. So you believe at that particular moment when he needed his Haki most, and it actually worked that he only used CoA because reasons?

Knowing full well that Haki blooms in the most desperate of times?


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> You can say the same thing about WB though. He didn't want to harm his men.


I agree you can say that. I have both WB and Akainu above Kaidou and BM.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Exactly. Because I’m not only going off feats. I’m looking at feats, logical progress (of the story) and the circumstances of Luffy’s victory, which are quite frankly, questionable.
> 
> If I don’t think Luffy’s win against one of the four strongest pirate forces (Kaido) was completely fair, then why would I think he could beat one of the four strongest navy forces in a fair bout? Kaido went through the gauntlet. THEN Luffy beat him.


Sure Luffy defeated a top tier but hey that was not fair, it means that fuji is above him because he just is.


yes yes Luffy the scrub will all the possible powers is just not strong enough.

I am sorry after Wano Luffy is not going into a fight that he can lose, if you put him vs Fuji next fight he defeats him.

I mean you are the type of poster that believes Luffy will not defeat Kaido or that he will get help from Kid and Law and Zoro because he can not possibly defeat a top tier by himself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> By this same logic Current Luffy beats IMU and Teach, because they haven’t shown greater feats yet; and how could their DF Powers possibly be better then a recently awakened and likely not fully mastered God Nika Fruit.



Feats are all that matter. Luffy defeats Imu, low diff. We do not even know if the ruler of the world has Haki.

/s

Reactions: Funny 1 | GODA 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Mate On panel WB could not use COC to save Ace and I mean regular COC.


You have no way to prove that Whitebeard didn't use it. And we know he had advanced conquerors:



The extent people will go to downplay Whitebeard amazes me

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I agree you can say that. I have both WB and Akainu above Kaidou and BM.


Healthy WB I would agree. MF Akainu isn't above Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Knowing full well that Haki blooms in the most desperate of times?


LOL.

It means when a character grows. WB was on his last swing. 

But who am I kidding, you guys think Akainu gets haki blooms at 55 because He needs to be FV. 

...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Sure Luffy defeated a top tier but hey that was not fair, it means that fuji is above him because he just is.
> 
> 
> yes yes Luffy the scrub will all the possible powers is just not strong enough.
> ...



It doesn’t matter what I believe. The proof is in the pudding Ren. HE RECEIVED HELP IN ABUNDANCE. His win is not clean. It’s not an opinion it’s a stone cold fact. Kaido was weakening, they were chipping away at him. That was the entire premise of the fight.

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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> LOL.
> 
> It means when a character grows.
> 
> ...



Clearly not. Because WB’s Haki seemed to pop up when he was in desperate need.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> It doesn’t matter what I believe. The proof is in the pudding Ren. HE RECEIVED HELP IN ABUNDANCE. His win is not clean. It’s not an opinion it’s a stone cold fact. Kaido was weakening, they were chipping away at him. That was the entire premise of the fight.


Mate did he overpower him at peak?

Is Kaido stronger than Fuji.

Now tell me how and why should Fuji be stronger than Luffy?


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Healthy WB I would agree. MF Akainu isn't above Kaido.


Even Sick/Old WB was still considered the Strongest by the Top Tiers of the verse. Akainu was portrayed very close to him. So I see both as stronger then Kaidou

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Clearly not. Because WB’s Haki seemed to pop up when he was in desperate need.


You mean when he tried to save Ace, you know his goal and he had a hear attack?

When he needed to dodge squardo?

When he needed protection against Akainu?

When he needed protection to his face, to his chest, vs BB pirates?

What you are saying that only when he needed to hit once Akainu that is where his prime Adv COC was used ...

Sure mate what ever you need to make Akainu stronger than Luffy.


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## Grinningfox (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> We aren’t talking about anything before the crucial moment where he hit Akainu. He also failed to use CoA against Kizaru at a point. Miraculously, when he needed it most against Akainu, he could then use it. So you believe at that particular moment when he needed his Haki most, and it actually worked that he only used CoA because reasons?
> 
> Knowing full well that Haki blooms in the most desperate of times?


Why would I assume any of that?

You’re passing off your (admittedly well reasoned) thoughts as a fact. You just mentioned another time his Haki failed him but I’m supposed to take it on faith that his Haki worked this one time.

It’s clear to me in the examples Oda laid out 

Squardo stab being a failure of COO

Kizaru slash being a failure of COA

and the previously mentioned COC example that Whitebeards Haki ability was waning near the start of the war and was nonexistent by the time he lands those blow one Sakazuki.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Even Sick/Old WB was still considered the Strongest by the Top Tiers of the verse. Akainu was portrayed very close to him. So I see both as stronger then Kaidou


1. Sengoku wasn't aware of his illness even Marco had trouble figuring it out.
2. Sengoku referred to him by his title which he would still have as he was not defeated. If EOS Luffy was not defeated by a character, people would still see him as the WSM.
3. Kaido beat Luffy plus 15 other people so he has better feats than sick WB.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

Grinningfox said:


> Why would I assume any of that?
> 
> You’re passing off your (admittedly well reasoned) thoughts as a fact. You just mentioned another time his Haki failed him but I’m supposed to take it on faith that his Haki worked this one time.
> 
> ...


Again only when Akainu was hit  his haki was fine.


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## Seraphoenix (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> You have no way to prove that Whitebeard didn't use it. And we know he had advanced conquerors:
> 
> 
> 
> The extent people will go to downplay Whitebeard amazes me


This was WB before the war when he was attached to his medical tools that stabilised his condition. You'll find no similar panel at MF where Ace was.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 27, 2022)

Make it
Fujitora + Kizaru + Aokiji + Fleet Admiral Akainu + Greenbull vs Luffy and we might have an extreme diff fight in Luffy's favor.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Disagree 1


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Mate did he overpower him at peak?
> 
> Is Kaido stronger than Fuji.
> 
> Now tell me how and why should Fuji be stronger than Luffy?



1. After all the help he received I’m not entirely surprised that he was able to overpower Kaido. Even assuming he did overpower Kaido fair and square, this would mean he has more offensive power than Kaido. Which is fine. Does he have more durability? More endurance? More Haki? You see, this equation is not as simple as you’re trying to make it. He passed out after the clash. Why the hell was he so tired? Kaido should have been the one passing out, he had no breaks or opportunities to recover

2. Yes, I believe so. But Luffy isn’t stronger than Kaido so why is this relevant?

3. Because Luffy has yet to beat a top tier without any assistance

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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Do you know who HAS defeated a top tier with no assistance? Akainu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> 3. Because Luffy has yet to beat a top tier without any assistance


So Fuji is stronger than Luffy because he defeated a top tier?

Forger about assistance



God Movement said:


> Do you know who HAS defeated a top tier with no assistance? Akainu.


Yes in 10 days, his night equal.

GG.

Off screen.

What are you proving here?


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> This was WB before the war when he was attached to his medical tools that stabilised his condition. You'll find no similar panel at MF where Ace was.


What reason is there to assume he couldn't use it? What changed Sera?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> 1. After all the help he received I’m not entirely surprised that he was able to overpower Kaido. Even assuming he did overpower Kaido fair and square, this would mean he has more offensive power than Kaido. Which is fine. Does he have more durability? More endurance? More Haki? You see, this equation is not as simple as you’re trying to make it. He passed out after the clash. Why the hell was he so tired? Kaido should have been the one passing out, he had no breaks or opportunities to recover
> 
> 2. Yes, I believe so. But Luffy isn’t stronger than Kaido so why is this relevant?
> 
> 3. Because Luffy has yet to beat a top tier without any assistance


Is Luffy going to go from below Fujitora level to above Blackbeard in an 2 arcs? Becuase Blackbeard will be above Roger while Fujitora is below sick old WB.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Do you know who HAS defeated a top tier with no assistance? Akainu.


You just proved Akainu is above Aokiji.
Yet you have Fujitora above Luffy.

From those 4 only 2 have defeated a top tier.

Interesting is it not.


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## Seraphoenix (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> What reason is there to assume he couldn't use it? What changed Sera?


What reason? Because he didn't fucking show it at MF. I said you won't find a panel of him using it at MF? Do you concede you don't have a panel for it?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

@God Movement  please tell me why Fujitora is above Luffy!

After Akainu, Luffy is the only top tier that has defeated another top tier and he overpower him.

Now please tell me why is Fujitora above Luffy per default!


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> What reason? Because he didn't fucking show it at MF. I said you won't find a panel of him using it at MF? Do you concede you don't have a panel for it?


That's not what I asked. What reason do you have to assume he lost the ability to use it?


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Grinningfox said:


> Why would I assume any of that?
> 
> You’re passing off your (admittedly well reasoned) thoughts as a fact. You just mentioned another time his Haki failed him but I’m supposed to take it on faith that his Haki worked this one time.
> 
> ...



Hmm? Don’t take my word for it. He was able to capture Akainu’s real form. Which means his CoA worked. No? So, wouldn’t his CoC also work in that instance?

All colors failed at different points during the war, up until the point where he really needed it, and it just worked.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> @God Movement  please tell me why Fujitora is above Luffy!
> 
> After Akainu, Luffy is the only top tier that has defeated another top tier and he overpower him.
> 
> Now please tell me why is Fujitora above Luffy per default!



Sure.

He’s a top tier. Confirmed. No question marks. No ifs and buts. Luffy has question marks, therefore, I cannot give him the nod over any top tier in the verse with an established position.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> ouldn’t his CoC also work in that instance?


But why?

Wouldn't it be more important to work when he needed to save Ace?


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Sure.
> 
> He’s a top tier. Confirmed. No question marks. No ifs and buts. Luffy has question marks, therefore, I cannot give him the nod over any top tier in the verse with an established position.


What is not top tier in Luffy's power?


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> So Fuji is stronger than Luffy because he defeated a top tier?
> 
> Forger about assistance
> 
> ...



Why does it matter how long the fight took? Oda always does this. It doesn’t really mean anything. Luffy could fight his exact equal and the fight would end in 5 minutes.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Why does it matter how long the fight took? Oda always does this. It doesn’t really mean anything. Luffy could fight his exact equal and the fight would end in 5 minutes.


It means they were night equal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Luffy could fight his exact equal and the fight would end in 5 minutes.


Do you even read the manga.


Let me show you:

Jimbe Ace 5 days;

Bm Kaido 3 days;

Roger vs WB 3 days;

Thre is not fight that is between night equal fighters that was ever finished in 5m.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> But why?
> 
> Wouldn't it be more important to work when he needed to save Ace?



But his CoA also failed against Kizaru. When he was enraged then it worked. So we know it wasn’t working properly until he hit Akainu. That much is true. But we also know it worked eventually when he really needed it. So the question is, why would he use CoA without CoC? There were no CoC cues pre-skip, so unfortunately there is no way to tell for certain. But seems logical to me.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> It means they were night equal.



Ok. Which means what? Aokiji is stronger than Luffy also.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Ok. Which means what? Aokiji is stronger than Luffy also.


The same as Akainu defeating Aokiji for Fujitora.

Nothing.

Luffy defeated Kaido.

Fujitora because he is an Admiral is not superior to Luffy because he is an Admiral.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Chinjao doesn’t differentiate the Admirals and Yonkou as milestones so I won’t either.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

That means what?

That fujitora is superior than the future PK?

Mate that doesn't mean that to be top tier you need to be an Admiral or Yonko.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> He’s a top tier. Confirmed. No question marks. No ifs and buts. Luffy has question marks, therefore, I cannot give him the nod over any top tier in the verse with an established position.


Exaplain to me how Fuji becoming an Admiral 2 years ago puts him above Luffy that defeated Kaido.

What kind of logic is that.

Do you think to become a top tier you need to be an Admiral or Yonko or to defeat 1vs1 fair the strongest Yonko.

No BB defeated WB and is a Yonko.


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Chinjao doesn’t differentiate the Admirals and Yonkou as milestones so I won’t either.


All that means is that they are close in power not equals.

A yonkou wouldn't need less than high diff to beat an admiral.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Luffy doesn’t differentiate the Admirals and Yonkou as milestones so I won’t either.

Reactions: Winner 6


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> That means that they are close in power not equals.
> 
> A yonkou wouldn't need less than high diff to beat an admiral.



Yes, I should believe the crazy hacker and not Chinjao and Luffy because reasons.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Luffy doesn’t differentiate the Admirals and Yonkou as milestones so I won’t either.


Again what does that have to do with him defeating someone that is stronger  than Fuji?

How come BB is a yonko after defeating no top tier fair?


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Yes, I should believe the crazy hacker and not Chinjao and Luffy because reasons.


When did Chinja say that Fuji is stronger than Luffy because Kaido was defeated with Help.

Again is BB not a Yonko?


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Again what does that have to do with him defeating someone that is stronger  than Fuji?
> 
> How come BB is a yonko after defeating no top tier fair?



Because his wins have asterisks.

Because he took over Whitebeard’s territory. He was recognised as a Yonkou only after defeating Marco. I could play dumb and say, all that’s required to be a Yonkou is to defeat a top Yonkou commander. But that would be silly.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Because he took over Whitebeard’s territory. He was recognised as a Yonkou only after defeating Marco.


Luffy is the 5h Emperor and he defeated one.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

I’m not sure you’re understanding me. I don’t hold Luffy’s victory over the “WSC” in high regard because he did not do it alone.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> all that’s required to be a Yonkou is to defeat a top Yonkou commander. But that would be silly.


But you want for Luffy to surpass Fuji to defeat Kaido and another top tier.

BB just had to kill WB and defeat Marco.


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Yes, I should believe the crazy hacker and not Chinjao and Luffy because reasons.


Chinjao never said that they are equals all it means is that they are close in strength and Oda has consistently had the yonkou have better feats and portrayal than the admirals.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> I’m not sure you’re understanding me. I don’t hold Luffy’s victory over the “WSC” in high regard because he did not do it alone.


You do not understand me.

You say that BB is a top tier because he killed WB and took his teritories and defeated Marco.

You are telling me that fuji is a top tier because he is an Admiral.

But Luffy is not one because he got help vs Kaido.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Chinjao never said that they are equals all it means is that they are close in strength and Oda has consistently had the yonkou have better feats and portrayal than the admirals.



Big Mom has better portrayal than Akainu? Should I even bother with this debate still?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> I don’t hold Luffy’s victory over the “WSC” in high regard because he did not do it alone.


Again you have no panel for BB wining vs what top tier?

We know he didn't defeat WB fair.

But you have a problem with Luffy!

You still didn't prove me that Fuji is a top tier by your standard aka defeat a top tier with no help.


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Big Mom has better portrayal than Akainu? Should I even bother with this debate still?


No the yonkou as a whole not individually. Yonkou as a group > Admirals as a group.

WB is the WSM.
Kaido is the WSC.
Shanks has better portrayal than any admiral.
Big Mom took two SN which are YC1+ level to beat.
Blackbeard should be up there as well.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> You do not understand me.
> 
> You say that BB is a top tier because he killed WB and took his teritories and defeated Marco.
> 
> ...



Oh right. Ok. You understand that the navy is an established, uniform organisation with ranks…right? So you understand that they have requirements and standards… right? Follow me here. You understand that being an Admiral is a job…right? They get paid and stuff.

You understand that if they don’t fit the requirement they simply do not get hired in the position…

…right?


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Oh right. Ok. You understand that the navy is an established, uniform organisation with ranks…right? So you understand that they have requirements and standards… right? Follow me here. You understand that being an Admiral is a job…right? They get paid and stuff.
> 
> You understand that if they don’t fit the requirement they simply do not get hired in the position…
> 
> …right?


So tell me about BB?

What standards!


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Again you have no panel for BB wining vs what top tier?
> 
> We know he didn't defeat WB fair.
> 
> ...



I don’t need that for Blackbeard. This is why you can’t just rely on feats alone. Blackbeard is a final villain. Luffy always struggles with his opponents. Therefore no matter how strong Luffy is, Teach will be more powerful.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> You understand that if they don’t fit the requirement they simply do not get hired in the position…
> 
> …right?


And you know that from Oda.

you know Than all the top tiers are Admirals or Yonko, because this is what you are insisting in.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> I don’t need that for Blackbeard. This is why you can’t just rely on feats alone. Blackbeard is a final villain. Luffy always struggles with his opponents. Therefore no matter how strong Luffy is, Teach will be more powerful.


Mate stop using double standards.

I was not asking you if BB is stronger than Luffy.

I was asking why was BB when he became a top tier a top tier.

And Luffy is now not a top tier?

You want feast for Luffy aka to defeat Kaido with no help but for Fuji and BB is just talk.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

FYI for good measure, my Yonkou/Admiral ranking is:

Akainu/Shanks
Aokiji/Kaido
Kizaru/Fujitora/Greenbull
Big Mom

So I do not think either group is clearly stronger than the other.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> FYI for good measure, my Yonkou/Admiral ranking is:
> 
> Akainu/Shanks
> Aokiji/Kaido
> ...


I don't care about that.

I don't care about your list.

Tell me why Luffy is not a  top tier.

Let alone that Aokiji is as strong as kaido because reasons once more.

Reactions: Like 1


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Mate stop using double standards.
> 
> I was not asking you if BB is stronger than Luffy.
> 
> ...



What do you mean why was he a top tier? I don’t understand what you’re asking here.


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## Ezekjuninor (May 27, 2022)

Luffy clears and doesn't require extreme diff for any of them.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> I don't care about that.
> 
> I don't care about your list.
> 
> ...



I think Luffy is a baseline top tier. The weakest one. But he’s not stronger than the established ones because he needs a little help. But this depends on your definition of top tier obviously


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> But he’s not stronger than the established ones because he needs a little help.


Mate help in what, are you saying Fuji can defeat a top tier without help?

Also established by what?

You are saying because Fuji was chosen by WG he is now superior to Luffy?

Why can Luffy not be stronger?

He was already set as the 5th Emperor and he now defeat the strongest one.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Mate help in what, are you saying Fuji can defeat a top tier without help?
> 
> Also established by what?
> 
> ...



I think Fuji can have an extreme difficulty fight with most top tiers because he is one. Without help.

This debate really isn’t going anywhere. You think Luffy is stronger, fine. Nothing wrong with that, he might be.

You do have established biases towards Yonkou however, so your argument may not be in good faith.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> What do you mean why was he a top tier? I don’t understand what you’re asking here.


Fuji is a top tier because he is an Admiral.

But Luffy needs to defeat another top tier after Kaido to be a  top tier.

That is called double standards.



God Movement said:


> I think Fuji can have an extreme difficulty fight with most top tiers because he is one. Without help.
> 
> This debate really isn’t going anywhere. You think Luffy is stronger, fine. Nothing wrong with that, he might be.
> 
> You do have established biases towards Yonkou however, so your argument may not be in good faith.


Mate I am biassed.

you are telling me that for Luffy to be a top tier he needs to defeat 2 top tiers in the story while Fuji gives extreme diff to all top tiers because he is one.

Also he is one because he is an Admiral.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Mate I am biassed.
> 
> you are telling me that for Luffy to be a top tier he needs to defeat 2 top tiers in the story while Fuji gives extreme diff to all top tiers because he is one.
> 
> Also he is one because he is an Admiral.



Did Luffy defeat Kaido without assistance?


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Maybe come up with a clearer definition of what makes someone top tier guys

I think what Luffy's lacking is stamina. He can only use G5 for a limited amount of time whereas we've seen Admirals fight for days. He beats Fujitora and Kizaru in my opinion because I have the Fleet Admiral and Yonko on another level. With Aokiji/Kuzan being in the grey area between the two, because of his story relevance and fight with Akainu.

But I'm open to the possibility of all top tiers being stronger than him

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Did Luffy defeat Kaido without assistance?


Did Fujitora defeat Kaido without assistance?

You think a non top tier will defeat Kaido with assistance like Luffy did?



God Movement said:


> Did Luffy defeat Kaido without assistance?


Did any top tier defeated another top tier?


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> ou do have established biases towards Yonkou however


You mean I don't give a darn.

I have Prime WB above all.

Kaido the strongest now.

And that is all.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Did Fujitora defeat Kaido without assistance?
> 
> You think a non top tier will defeat Kaido with assistance like Luffy did?
> 
> ...



He wouldn’t need assistance to compete, he’s part of an established group of top tiers


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> He wouldn’t need assistance to compete, he’s part of an established group of top tiers


Again do not change the subject.

Can Fuji defeat Kaido?

He can be a top tier and lose 1000/1000 fights vs Kaido.


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> We aren’t talking about anything before the crucial moment where he hit Akainu. *He also failed to use CoA against Kizaru at a point.* Miraculously, when he needed it most against Akainu, he could then use it. So you believe at that particular moment when he needed his Haki most, and it actually worked that he only used CoA because reasons?
> 
> Knowing full well that Haki blooms in the most desperate of times?



How do you know that he failed to use CoA against Kizaru? We are talking about a top tier with a logia that he used for decades. It's not hard to make a great argument how Kizaru was simply too fast and morphed around WB's slash attack similiarly to Aokiji in the beginning or Sakazuki against Marco and Vista's assault.

WB had a single instance of his haki failing and that was when he tried to release a CoC wave to stop the fodders from executing Ace. Anyone who claims WB was incapable of using haki has to bring actual evidence for that.

Back to topic, i see Luffy losing all rounds. He arrived at that level and can fight a fucking around Kaido kinda equally without G5 but will still get destroyed by him if Kaido is serious (we seen this already). G5 elevates him higher for a short time... this is basically the same gear overestimation that happened multiple times in the past.



Ren. said:


> Did Fujitora defeat Kaido without assistance?



Did Fujitora even fight a top tier so far?   



Ren. said:


> You think a non top tier will defeat Kaido with assistance like Luffy did?
> 
> 
> Did any top tier defeated another top tier?



Sakazuki defeated Aokiji and practically killed the WSM/P.


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Again do not change the subject.
> 
> Can Fuji defeat Kaido?
> 
> He can be a top tier an lose 1000/1000 fights.



I think Kaido is stronger than Fujitora, so no. I think he clears the Kaido that Luffy fought though.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> I think Kaido is stronger than Fujitora, so no. I think he clears the Kaido that Luffy fought though.


O you do.

So Fuji has the same power as Luffy?

He can negate most damage that Kaido gives.

He can also overpower Kaido?

He has the ADv COC And COA to really damage Kaido.

He has the same level of COA and COC.

His  gravity also can be mixed with that to really affect Kaido.

Practically what you are telling me is that top tiers are interchangeable, well they are not.

Fuji lacks the COC to damage Kaido, lack the Zoan regen and stamina and rubber manipulation to reduce the damage Kaido does vs the Nika fruit.

What Oda tried to show is that Kaido is still stronger than Luffy but not that all top tier are and next arc even Kaido has a good chance to lose.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chip Skylark (May 27, 2022)

Love to see Luffy sweeping this poll.

OL is evolving in the right direction.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> I think he clears the Kaido that Luffy fought though.


That is called a speculation.

That does not make Fuji stronger.

Because when G5 activated Luffy was another tier.

I will end with this, If Oda puts Fuji vs Luffy next arc in a battle.

Who do you think wins, 100% Luffy wins with no help and I bet you can not tell me that Fuji wins.


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Love to see Luffy sweeping this poll.
> 
> OL is evolving in the right direction.


Your wank of Luffy is more disgusting than your wank of Gyou'un

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Your wank of Luffy is more disgusting than your wank of Gyou'un



That's the usual view of casuals and newcomers to the series.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Your wank of Luffy is more disgusting than your wank of Gyou'un


Luffy just punched Kaido through Wano, and into magma. It’s way beyond time to stop pretending that he’s beneath the admirals.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

I wanted to debate Luffy vs some top tiers and here we go again.

YvsA, this was shit from when I started debating, it will be shit till the end.

ZKK, Akainu wank , WSS superiority was toxic from my manga fox days, it will still be even when I reach 40s.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

I bet we will have Luffy fight Blackbeard and some people will say that he is below Fujitora.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> O you do.
> 
> So Fuji has the same power as Luffy?
> 
> ...



Does Fuji require the same power as Luffy? He has completely different powers. A fight between Fuji and Kaido does not play out identically.

Let’s review. Eustass Kid: “you can hurt Kaido with physical blows?”

What does gravity do?

“Gravity affects many parts of your body as you age. It *compresses the spine, contributes to poor blood circulation and can decrease your flexibility. The gravitational pull also affects your organs, causing them to shift downward, away from their proper position.*”

This is assuming he doesn’t have the CoC at all. Is this a strict requirement to harm Kaido? With physical blows. With non physical attacks (shown by Killer and Law), there’s ways around that.

The better question should be, how the hell can you be considered top tier if you have no means to compete against another top tier?


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> The better question should be, how the hell can you be considered top tier if you have no means to compete against another top tier?


To compete as in not defeat sure.

Fuji has no means to defeat Kaido.




God Movement said:


> . It *compresses the spine, contributes to poor blood circulation and can decrease your flexibility. The gravitational pull also affects your organs, causing them to shift downward, away from their proper position.*”


This is OP when Luffy's punch is in the teratones.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> 1. Sengoku wasn't aware of his illness even Marco had trouble figuring it out.
> 2. Sengoku referred to him by his title which he would still have as he was not defeated. If EOS Luffy was not defeated by a character, people would still see him as the WSM.
> 3. Kaido beat Luffy plus 15 other people so he has better feats than sick WB.


Sengoku saw his performance at MF, and still considered him the strongest:

WB himself also thought he was still the strongest even when he was at his worst condition at MF, and only that he soon wouldn’t remain the strongest in the futur:

Then we have the narrator, DB, and volumes all aware he’s sick and calling him the strongest.
—-
Luffy beat Kaidou. Unless you mean the fist time he knocked Luffy off the roof, and if so surely WB fighting dozens of people in the war stronger then the Supernova/Scabbers and still knocking Akainu down, is a better feat then knocking down freshly learned ACoC Luffy. Come on man.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Let’s review. Eustass Kid: “you can hurt Kaido with physical blows?”


Mate Zoro was "hurting" Kaido.

Luffy hurt Kaido with overguns.

Don't put that next to Luffy overpowering Kaido in his strongest form.

You don't want to compare feats, you don't want to compare stats.

What you are saying to me is that if you are an Admiral, Luffy can not be above him until he defeats another  top tier.

And I am biassed against someone that was named an Admiral 2 years ago.

@God Movement  you are not debating Luffy vs Fuji, you are debating Yonko vs Admirals and I do not want that.

Ciao.


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Fuji has no means to defeat Kaido.


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## Chip Skylark (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> WB himself also thought he was still the strongest even when he was at his worst condition at MF, and only that he soon wouldn’t remain the strongest in the futur:


Bruh. He literally said that he _can’t_ remain the strongest, and you chose to circle the word “remain” as affirmation of your argument?

Holy shit

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Bruh. He literally said that he _can’t_ remain the strongest, and you chose to circle the word “remain” as affirmation of your argument?
> 
> Holy shit


The funny thing is that I am a WB fan.

And this wank is for Akainu and not for WB.


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## Big king (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Mate stop using double standards.
> 
> I was not asking you if BB is stronger than Luffy.
> 
> ...



Luffy didn't just get minor assists like a distraction or anything. He got an absurd amount of help where he could even eat mid-battle as others could waste Kaido's stamina. Luffy needed the support of 16 people alongside him, breaks and a minor handicap of Kaido holding up Onigashima. Most people rating Luffy where he is now just want to see him beat a top tier without the assistance of a fucking plethora of YC+ characters and medical aid before we put him above other top tiers.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gunners (May 27, 2022)

Based on what we have seen. He dominates all of them.

Based on hype, he dominates all of them.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Big king said:


> Luffy didn't just get minor assists like a distraction or anything. He got an absurd amount of help where he could even eat mid-battle as others could waste Kaido's stamina. Luffy needed the support of 16 people alongside him, breaks and a minor handicap of Kaido holding up Onigashima. Most people rating Luffy where he is now just want to see him beat a top tier without the assistance of a fucking plethora of YC+ characters and medical aid before we put him above other top tiers.


Luffy also got killed and came back to life. He is severely injured.Yes Kaido is stronger but Luffy was also very injured.


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## Gunners (May 27, 2022)

Big king said:


> Luffy didn't just get minor assists like a distraction or anything. He got an absurd amount of help where he could even eat mid-battle as others could waste Kaido's stamina. Luffy needed the support of 16 people alongside him, breaks and a minor handicap of Kaido holding up Onigashima. Most people rating Luffy where he is now just want to see him beat a top tier without the assistance of a fucking plethora of YC+ characters and medical aid before we put him above other top tiers.



Why does everyone ignore Luffy having to put hands on people on his way to beating Kaido's ass?

We going to say that Kaido needed the support of Apoo and some dinosaurs?


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## God Movement (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> The funny thing is that I am a WB fan.
> 
> And this wank is for Akainu and not for WB.



The sickest part about this is you think saying a villain who has yet to be encountered is stronger than Luffy is “wank”. That’s pretty sick (mentally)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Bruh. He literally said that he _can’t_ remain the strongest, and you chose to circle the word “remain” as affirmation of your argument?
> 
> Holy shit


If someone says they can’t remain the strongest using the future tense; that means they currently are the strongest per the definition of remain.

What part grammatically are you struggling with


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

Big king said:


> Luffy didn't just get minor assists like a distraction or anything. He got an absurd amount of help where he could even eat mid-battle as others could waste Kaido's stamina. Luffy needed the support of 16 people alongside him, breaks and a minor handicap of Kaido holding up Onigashima. Most people rating Luffy where he is now just want to see him beat a top tier without the assistance of a fucking plethora of YC+ characters and medical aid before we put him above other top tiers.



This is what i fail to understand. Luffy lost 5 times to Kaido and in the end finished him off when the latter was on his last legs with a godly asspull power-up. Now he is the so called new WSC and his hardcore wankers act like he did everything on his own.

We have a guy in this gauntlet that actually defeated a top tier on his own in a gruesome 10 days fight on top of the other shit he did but this is simply ignored because the protagonist showed a new overrated gear that will likely just job to a new opponent next arc (Kuma, Cracker).

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> If someone says they can’t remain the strongest using the future tense; that means they currently are the strongest per the definition of remain.
> 
> What part grammatically are you struggling with



WB settled to end the era and die at MF, so i don't understand what the people don't get. The only reason is that they want to shit on WB to elevate the other emperors while everything hints at the opposite. WB was the strongest at MF, there's an uncountable amount of sources that confirm this.


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## Kylo Ren (May 27, 2022)

Luffy beat everyone. 


Portrayal, feats, and hype go to Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chip Skylark (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> If someone says they can’t remain the strongest using the future tense; that means they currently are the strongest per the definition of remain.
> 
> What part grammatically are you struggling with


The word “remain” doesn’t have a future tense, Turrin. You derive the tense from the words surrounding it, and “can’t” is present tense. The context of the entire dialogue  was present tense. Can look it up if you don’t believe me.


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Sengoku saw his performance at MF, and still considered him the strongest:


Yes because WB was the strongest pirate this doesnt have to only include MF.


Turrin said:


> WB himself also thought he was still the strongest even when he was at his worst condition at MF, and only that he soon wouldn’t remain the strongest in the futur:
> 
> Then we have the narrator, DB, and volumes all aware he’s sick and calling him the strongest.
> —-


Chip Skylark addressed this point.

Does WB always refuse to use his IV lines? He only did in MF.


Turrin said:


> Luffy beat Kaidou. Unless you mean the fist time he knocked Luffy off the roof, and if so surely WB fighting dozens of people in the war stronger then the Supernova/Scabbers and still knocking Akainu down, is a better feat then knocking down freshly learned ACoC Luffy. Come on man.


What dozens of people? He fought the admirals and a few vice admirals. The admirals except for Akainu were skirmishes and the the vice admrials were one shots. He only beat Akainu and had a few skirmishes with top tiers. Kaido took a top tier Luffy and 15 people to beat. 4 of those people are at least YC1 level. Kaido has better feats than MF WB.


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## Tsukuyomi (May 27, 2022)

He beats all of em except Akainu/Aokiji imo. 
And maybe Kizaru if he is a direct peer of Sakazuki.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

Gunners said:


> Why does everyone ignore Luffy having to put hands on people on his way to beating Kaido's ass?
> 
> We going to say that Kaido needed the support of Apoo and some dinosaurs?



So Apo and some fodder dinos and nameless fodder smiles = Scabbards, R5, Island carrying, Yamato et cetera?  

I thought Luffy was at least equal to Kaido...

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## trance (May 27, 2022)

he clears


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## Big king (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> This is what i fail to understand. Luffy lost 5 times to Kaido and in the end finished him off when the latter was on his last legs with a godly asspull power-up. Now he is the so called new WSC and his hardcore wankers act like he did everything on his own.
> 
> We have a guy in this gauntlet that actually defeated a top tier on his own in a gruesome 10 days fight on top of the other shit he did but this is simply ignored because the protagonist showed a new overrated gear that will likely just job to a new opponent next arc (Kuma, Cracker).



We see this every time with Luffy fans. I remember on Dressrosa where they said Gear 4th gives Luffy Top tier power, and the only thing stopping him from being Top tier is his timer, and then he jobs to a lowly YC4 like Cracker. They started hyping Future sight as invincible and Luffy's close to Yonko level with the 5th emperor sea title. He then gets one shot by Kaido, they are shocked and think if Luffy was beaten so easily, no one else has a chance. After all those power-ups, we see other characters like Law, Kidd and Zoro perform way better than Luffy. They never learn there's a reason oda does all these things no matter how badly they want their boy to be the strongest oda has a story to write, and that won't be the case. Luffy being stronger than every Marine right now would be ridiculous.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> The word “remain” doesn’t have a future tense, Turrin. You derive the tense from the words surrounding it, and “can’t” is present tense. The context of the entire dialogue  was present tense. Can look it up if you don’t believe me.


Considering the fact that he thought that after Crocodile said that he was weak also helps.


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## Big king (May 27, 2022)

Luffy fans when 16+ people help him against Kaido


Luffy fans when he beats an exhausted Kaido

Reactions: Funny 6 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

Big king said:


> We see this every time with Luffy fans. I remember on Dressrosa where they said Gear 4th gives Luffy Top tier power, and the only thing stopping him from being Top tier is his timer, and then he jobs to a lowly YC4 like Cracker. They started hyping Future sight as invincible and Luffy's close to Yonko level with the 5th emperor sea title. He then gets one shot by Kaido, they are shocked and think if Luffy was beaten so easily, no one else has a chance. After all those power-ups, we see other characters like Law, Kidd and Zoro perform way better than Luffy. They never learn there's a reason oda does all these things no matter how badly they want their boy to be the strongest oda has a story to write, and that won't be the case. Luffy being stronger than every Marine right now would be ridiculous.



Yea Luffy's been top tier since he smashed that Pacifista in the return to SA. Luffy wankers praised him for decades to have reached top tier whenever he farted.

 

G4, they really believed he could compete with the likes of admirals and yonko when he couldn't get past the likes of Cracker and Katakuri with his own strength lmao. Remember how many times he became Yonko level in Wano?


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Lol you guys will say that Blackbeard wasn't a top tier when Luffy beats him.


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Lol you guys will say that Blackbeard wasn't a top tier when Luffy beats him.



How is BB going to compete with Luffy if Luffy is already the strongest and has a greater growth rate lmao. He will walk through BB like a hot knife through butter.


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> How is BB going to compete with Luffy if Luffy is already the strongest and has a greater growth rate lmao. He will walk through BB like a hot knife through butter.


I actually think BB and Kaido>Luffy and Luffy is 8th in the world. But saying  that Luffy isn't a solid top tier when he is going to fight Blackbeard soon doesn't make sense.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Yea Luffy's been top tier since he smashed that Pacifista in the return to SA. Luffy wankers praised him for decades to have reached top tier whenever he farted.
> 
> 
> 
> G4, they really believed he could compete with the likes of admirals and yonko when he couldn't get past the likes of Cracker and Katakuri with his own strength lmao. Remember how many times he became Yonko level in Wano?


The strongest top tier is kaido. Kizaru needed prep to take on a non-top tier in old ray. 

There’s levels to this and admirals are clearly not on that level.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Corax (May 27, 2022)

I don't think he can beat any admiral at this point. Reason is quite simple,because if he can story would become quite boring. If he can beat them now by EOS he would be able to low diff them or something (due to power creep). Of course at some point he is destined to surpass everyone,meet Imu and win,but this point is hundreds of chapters away.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Corax said:


> I don't think he can beat any admiral at this point. Reason is quite simple,because if he can story would become quite boring. If he can beat them now by EOS he would be able to low diff them or something (due to power creep). Of course at some point he is destined to surpass everyone,meet Imu and win,but this point is hundreds of chapters away.


These guys are henchmen bosses for a reason. His subordinates will largely take care of them.

Kaido is wsc and is substantially stronger than any admiral.

We are also not far from EOS. Luffy wont have 20 more training arcs.

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> I actually think BB>Luffy and he is 8th in the world. But saying  that Luffy isn't a solid top tier when he is going to fight Blackbeard soon doesn't make sense.



Well you're in the minority then because Luffy destroys BB by feats, hype and portrayal



The crazy hacker said:


> Chinjao never said that they are equals all it means is that they are close in strength and Oda has consistently had the yonkou *have better feats and portrayal* than the admirals.



So either you're dishonest or you're incredibly biased towards admirals. 

BB gets destroyed by Luffy by your own logic.


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## Corax (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> These guys are henchmen bosses for a reason. His subordinates will largely take care of them.
> 
> Kaido is wsc and is substantially stronger than any admiral.
> 
> We are also not far from EOS. Luffy wont have 20 more training arcs.


I think we are still like at least two arcs away from last war. It is like to say that Arabasta Luffy could low diff Kaku. No he couldn't. He couldn't even beat Kaku to be fair.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

God Movement said:


> The sickest part about this is you think saying a villain who has yet to be encountered is stronger than Luffy is “wank”. That’s pretty sick (mentally)


Again you are saying that Akainu is a future villain.

Did you ask me if I agree that after BB he should fight Akainu?


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> The strongest top tier is kaido. Kizaru needed prep to take on a non-top tier in old ray.
> 
> There’s levels to this and admirals are clearly not on that level.



Kaido needed bowler hats support to defeat Luffy


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Well you're in the minority then because Luffy destroys BB by feats, hype and portrayal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BB has a fast growth rate, admirals are mostly stagnant. Another disingenuous argument 

Wow can’t say I’m surprised.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Kaido needed bowler hats support to defeat Luffy


What can I say luffy is that strong

Reactions: Funny 1


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Corax said:


> I think we are still like at least two arcs away from last war. It is like to say that Arabasta Luffy could low diff Kaku. No he couldn't. He couldn't even beat Kaku to be fair.


It’s not like he has another saga villain or someone he needs to fight that will push him. And we don’t even know if he faces akainu.


He’s very close to his EOS potential.


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> BB has a fast growth rate, admirals are mostly stagnant. Another disingenuous argument
> 
> *Wow can’t say I’m surprised.*



Sakazuki for example beat a top tier on his own with confirmed haki bloom. 
*What an argument. * 



arv993 said:


> What can I say luffy is that strong



Just like Ray then


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Well you're in the minority then because Luffy destroys BB by feats, hype and portrayal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kaido extreme diffs BB and very high diffs Luffy.

BB extreme diffs Luffy same with current Akainu.

Luffy is fighting Blackbeard in an arc. People were saying that it would take multiple arcs for Luffy to fight Kaido after WCI but it was only one arc. Same thing with Katakuri which was like an arc after Doflamingo. Luffy has one yonkou fight left and his role is to beat the yonkous to be the PK. Unless BM becomes an antagonist next arc and he is likely not fighting Shanks. He fights BB soon and becomes beyond any admiral or yonkou.

How am I being dishonest? How does BB get destroyed by Luffy I don't get what you mean.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Sakazuki for example beat a top tier on his own.
> *What an argument. *
> 
> 
> ...


Ray was washed up tho. And luffy was going to gas out anyway so kaido was taking the W at extreme diff by himself. 


And? He needed 10 days to beat an admiral, luffy finished up quicker.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

Big king said:


> Luffy fans when 16+ people help him against Kaido
> 
> 
> Luffy fans when he beats an exhausted Kaido


Luffy fans to a Z Boy called Optimistic.

He is not a top tier until he defeats Kaido.

Luffy fans to wankers of him but Zoro in the end, he is not stronger than Kaido.


But again he also is not a a top tier now because unlike Fujitora he is not an Admiral.


Guys spare me the A vs Y. I don't care about your wierd fetish with Akainu as a villan because he has to.


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Kaido extreme diffs BB and very high diffs Luffy.
> 
> BB extreme diffs Luffy.
> 
> ...



Why would Kaido need extreme diff for BB if he shits on him by feats, portrayal and hype? 



			
				The crazy hacker said:
			
		

> Chinjao never said that they are equals all it means is that they are close in strength and Oda has consistently had the yonkou *have better feats and portrayal* than the admirals.





arv993 said:


> Ray was washed up tho. And luffy was going to gas out anyway so kaido was taking the W at extreme diff by himself.
> 
> 
> And? He needed 10 days to beat an admiral, luffy finished up quicker.



Iam glad Luffy can end the fight faster after nearly everyone relevant on the island already weakened Kaido for him.  

I will be impressed once he can do it all by himself until then he loses here.


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## Corax (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> It’s not like he has another saga villain or someone he needs to fight that will push him. And we don’t even know if he faces akainu.
> 
> 
> He’s very close to his EOS potential.


I am pretty sure he has at least Teach to push him past his limits. Because as I see it he will face Teach before Imu and WG.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> But saying that Luffy isn't a solid top tier


He isn't because Fujitora is a an Admiral.


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Why would Kaido need extreme diff for BB if he shits on him by feats, portrayal and hype?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Blackbeard is his final villian. Just like current Akainu both should be above current Luffy. But I have the other admirals being below him slightly.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Corax said:


> I am pretty sure he has at least Teach to push him past his limits. Because as I see it he will face Teach before Imu and WG.


If he faces teach before, akainu has no business fighting him in FW. It should be imu. Unless akainu is blueno.

Teach has two Op fruits maybe 3 and will have awakenings and have haki to do the sky split. Akainu is unlikely to be stronger than teach.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Corax (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> If he faces teach before, akainu has no business fighting him in FW. It should be imu. Unless akainu is blueno.
> 
> Teach has two Op fruits maybe 3 and will have awakenings and have haki to do the sky split. Akainu is unlikely to be stronger than teach.


Akainu will be a henchman obviously. But FV's henchman. And Luffy will be much stronger after Teach's fight zenkai.


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## The crazy hacker (May 27, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Luffy fans to a Z Boy called Optimistic.
> 
> He is not a top tier until he defeats Kaido.
> 
> ...


He thinks that all Luffy fans think that he is stronger than Kaido and the WSM.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

Damn what a Luffy vs Admirals Thread.

My bad it is a Y vs A thread.

Ciao gents.


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## Ren. (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> He thinks that all Luffy fans think that he is stronger than Kaido and the WSM.


Again my problem was when people said Fuji is stronger because he is an Admiral.

And Luffy to be a top tier he needs to defeat another top tier without help.

Really now.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Blackbeard is his final villian. Just like current Akainu both should be above current Luffy. But I have the other admirals being below him slightly.



But he is featless, his portrayal is below Kaido's too, aswell as his hype.

These are your words:



			
				The crazy hacker said:
			
		

> Chinjao never said that they are equals all it means is that they are close in strength and Oda has consistently had the yonkou *have better feats and portrayal* than the admirals.



Apply this to everyone and don't pick what suits you and your narrative. BB gets destroyed.



Ren. said:


> Damn what a Luffy vs Admirals Thread.
> 
> My bad it is a Y vs A thread.
> 
> Ciao gents.



Can you leave already? How many times will you post bye, ciao, adieu?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Why would Kaido need extreme diff for BB if he shits on him by feats, portrayal and hype?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Luffy was also hurt as he was training. He was getting hurt by yonko whereas kaido was getting hurt by scabbards 

 

A fresh luffy would not need to take all that damage lol


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Corax said:


> Akainu will be a henchman obviously. But FV's henchman. And Luffy will be much stronger after Teach's fight zenkai.


So who’s stronger in your opinion?

EOS teach or akainu?


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Luffy was also hurt as he was training. He was getting hurt by yonko whereas kaido was getting hurt by scabbards
> 
> 
> 
> A fresh luffy would not need to take all that damage lol



I agree Apo was indeed quite powerful, so were Ulti and P1 when they pressured him so badly that he wanted to go G4 and needed assistance from Yamato


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> I agree Apo was indeed quite powerful, so were Ulti and P1 when they pressured him so badly that he wanted to go G4 and needed assistance from Yamato


Luffy will job to fodder number 80008293
in the next arc. Luffy gonna be luffy.

Apoo hits > scabbards

Unnecessary Kaido and big mom’s attacks >>> law and kid’s attacks on kaido


Also all of that is prior to his upgrades.


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## Corax (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> So who’s stronger in your opinion?
> 
> EOS teach or akainu?


Idk. they will be around the same lvl. I think. And both good deal below god Imu in any case.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Corax said:


> Idk. they will be around the same lvl. I think. And both good deal below god Imu in any case.


Lol ok I don’t see that happening. Akainu with one fruit is unlikely to be equal than the guy that negates fruits and has the most destructive fruit as well.


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## Seraphoenix (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's not what I asked. What reason do you have to assume he lost the ability to use it?


Your question was answered. You posted a panel of him splitting the sky with Shanks. If you think he still had the ability at MF then by all means show a panel of him even using basic CotC.


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Luffy will job to fodder number 80008293
> in the next arc. Luffy gonna be luffy.
> 
> Apoo hits > scabbards
> ...


Apo > scabbards that can actually cut past Kaido's scales, something Apo isn't even confirmed to be capable of?   

Unnecessary attacks that been shrugged off no prob by the likes of Killer are above attacks that can bypass Kaido's defenses?


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Your question was answered. You posted a panel of him splitting the sky with Shanks. If you think he still had the ability at MF then by all means show a panel of him even using basic CotC.


I already posted a panel of Whitebeard using acoc. The burden of proof is on you to show that Whitebeard couldnt use it anymore.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Apo > scabbards that can actually cut past Kaido's scales, something Apo isn't even confirmed to be capable of?
> 
> Unnecessary attacks that been shrugged off no prob by the likes of Killer are above attacks that can bypass Kaido's defenses?


Well apoo and ulti etc.

Also luffy and kaido have different durability.

Luffy took more damage and momentarily passed out. Kaido was largely unscathed after his attacks.


Kaido’s Baguas that luffy took early on as he leveled up all are training hits luffy doesn’t take anymore. Luffy also went from Baguas knocking him out to saying ouch due to acoc


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I already posted a panel of Whitebeard using acoc. The burden of proof is on you that Whitebeard couldnt use it anymore.


He couldn’t even use coc without getting heart attack


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## Amol (May 27, 2022)

He fails to beat any Admiral.
Or any top tier for that matter.

He would put incredible fight. He would force them to go all out and give them extremely serious injuries.

But he would lose nonetheless. I have current Luffy as the weakest Top tier. He should beat most of them by next arc though.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Well apoo and ulti etc.
> 
> Also luffy and kaido have different durability.
> 
> Luffy took more damage and momentarily passed out. Kaido was largely unscathed after his attacks.



You are aware that Kaido still got injured? lmao

So the attacks he received are already confirmed to pack more power.


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> He couldn’t even use coc without getting heart attack


He couldnt use coa against kizaru. But when it mattered most, and when he was most enraged, he could use it on Akainu.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> You are aware that Kaido still got injured? lmao
> 
> So the attacks he received are already confirmed to pack more power.


Yes ofc it did but it barely compares to the hurt luffy took from kaido as he was training.

Baguas >> most damage kaido took.

It’s pretty self-explanatory 

Luffy did most of the work with acoc and G5

This is a fresh luffy not one that needs to learn how to use acoc or G5. Idk if you realized that.


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Yes ofc it did but it barely compares to the hurt luffy took from kaido as he was training.
> 
> Baguas >> most damage kaido took.
> 
> ...



Guess Kinemon tanked those baguas better than Luffy too then

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Yes because WB was the strongest pirate this doesnt have to only include MF.
> 
> Chip Skylark addressed this point.
> 
> ...


That still doesn’t change the fact that it does include that performance.
—-
You don’t think fighting Admirals is more impressive then fighting the Scabbers and Supernova. Because I for sure do


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## Seraphoenix (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I already posted a panel of Whitebeard using acoc. The burden of proof is on you to show that Whitebeard couldnt use it anymore.


You posted a pic of WB with medical tools stabilising his condition using it. You can't post one for MF because you know it never happened. If you say he has it at MF, not weeks earlier with Shanks, then post the panel. Burden of proof is on you not me.


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> You posted a pic of WB with medical tools stabilising his condition using it. You can't post one for MF because you know it never happened. If you say he has it at MF, not weeks earlier with Shanks, then post the panel. Burden of proof is on you not me.


He could use haki. Why can he use one color and not the other? Ill give this one over to you.


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## Seraphoenix (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> He could use haki. Why can he use one color and not the other? Ill give this one over to you.


Post a panel or we're done. You're wasting my time.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> The word “remain” doesn’t have a future tense, Turrin. You derive the tense from the words surrounding it, and “can’t” is present tense. The context of the entire dialogue  was present tense. Can look it up if you don’t believe me.


I’m not saying the word “remain” is in the future tense. I’m saying exactly the opposite. Remain is in the  Present Tense, so when someone says they can’t remain the strongest. It means they currently are but won’t be in the future.


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Post a panel or we're done. You're wasting my time.


Absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence.

Whitebeard used coa. Why cant he use coc?


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## Seraphoenix (May 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Post a panel or we're done. You're wasting my time.





Shunsuiju said:


> Absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence.
> 
> Whitebeard used coa. Why cant he use coc?


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Is that supposed to be a reply?

Youre making a claim here that Whitebeard cant do something hes done in the past. The burden of proof is on you.


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## Sherlōck (May 27, 2022)

Luffy is basically Old Ray level now.

Strong enough to compete against top tiers but will fall short every time. 

If Luffy fights Fujitora now he will win in verse cause he will grow during the fight. But in battledome?  He loses.

Reactions: Like 3 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

Sherlōck said:


> Luffy is basically Old Ray level now.
> 
> Strong enough to compete against top tiers but will fall short every time.
> 
> If Luffy fights Fujitora now he will win in verse cause he will grow during the fight. But in battledome?  He loses.


Good comparison actually.

Basically, a top tier whos a bit rough around the edges.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Guess Kinemon tanked those baguas better than Luffy too then


Kinemon has curiel level of durability. 

Curiel has better durability than ace too since he survived the magma.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> He couldnt use coa against kizaru. But when it mattered most, and when he was most enraged, he could use it on Akainu.


That’s bold speculation. He could use coa but he never used acoc. The one time he attempted coc he had a heart attack.


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> That’s bold speculation. He could use coa but he never used acoc. The one time he attempted coc he had a heart attack.


Its not speculation, I can show you Whitebeard using coc. I can also show you him failing to use coa and coc and succeeding to use coa on akainu which we only know for a fact because of logia intangibility. i dont see it as speculation to assume whitebeard used all of his strength in those attacks.

Why would Whitebeard be able to use one color of haki and not another?


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Its not speculation, I can show you Whitebeard using coc. I can also show you him failing to use coa and coc and succeeding to use coa on akainu which we only know for a fact because of logia intangibility. i dont see it as speculation to assume whitebeard used all of his strength in those attacks.
> 
> Why would Whitebeard be able to use one color of haki and not another?


He used coa without any health issues repeatedly in MF. But the one attempt at even coc was not possible for him.

Wb had about the same level of power and aoe as Bb so it’s speculation to think that’s his best attack ever. 

To think he can do acoc when he didn’t show it in MF at all is speculative and has no grounds given his condition among all the other factors mentioned.


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Kinemon has curiel level of durability.
> 
> *Curiel has better durability than ace* too since he survived the magma.



Curiel was never fisted on panel, so GL in proving that


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> He used coa without any health issues repeatedly in MF. But the one attempt at even coc was not possible for him.


He failed to use it on Kizaru.


arv993 said:


> Wb had about the same level of power and aoe as Bb so it’s speculation to think that’s his best attack ever.


You don't know that.


arv993 said:


> To think he can do acoc when he didn’t show it in MF at all is speculation.


He showed it against Shanks.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> He failed to use it on Kizaru.
> 
> You don't know that.
> 
> He showed it against Shanks.


Failed to use  coa? 

But we saw him use it on akainu and aokiji. 

The one time he used coc he was out of commission - so claiming he used it against akainu is speculative.


MF wb is different from Healthy old wb.


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Failed to use  coa?
> 
> But we saw him use it on akainu and aokiji.


he missed kizarus body when he attacked him


arv993 said:


> The one time he used coc he was out of commission - so claiming he used it against akainu is speculative.


of course its speculative. im not claiming he used it 100%. i just find it weird to assume he didnt using his full strength against akainu.

which attack do you think was stronger, the one with shanks where they split the sky, or the final one against akainu?


arv993 said:


> MF wb is different from Healthy old wb.


Theres a difference, but you havent demonstrated how that affects his use of coc. And no, he wasnt healthy when he used it.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> he missed kizarus body when he attacked him
> 
> of course its speculative. im not claiming he used it 100%. i just find it weird to assume he didnt using his full strength against akainu.
> 
> ...


Ok I thought you were saying it definitively.

Shanks attack is a regular flex attack, it’s not supposed to break his ships etc. he has many regular attacks that are stronger than the clash with shanks.


There is a difference the only coc attempt by wb in MF resulted in a heart attack and him going down. This was not the case with coa.


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Shanks attack is a regular flex attack, it’s not supposed to break his ships etc. he has many regular attacks that are stronger than the clash with shanks.


Wouldnt the attack against akainu contain coc then too?


arv993 said:


> There is a difference the only coc attempt by wb in MF resulted in a heart attack and him going down. This was not the case with coa.


he still failed to bring out coa against kizaru even if he didnt have a full on heart attack. he also failed to use coo against squardo. clearly his ability to use any type of haki was weakened by his sickness. but we saw when he went all out he was able to connect with akainu's logia body.


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## arv993 (May 27, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Wouldnt the attack against akainu contain coc then too?
> 
> he still failed to bring out coa against kizaru even if he didnt have a full on heart attack. he also failed to use coo against squardo. clearly his ability to use any type of haki was weakened by his sickness. but we saw when he went all out he was able to connect with akainu's logia body.


In more than instance he used coa in MF, so there is proof he used that in his MF state.

There is no proof to that he used any acoc attack in MF. The one time he tried coc he failed but he used coa many times

So acoc is speculative where as coa has been proven repeatedly. So until there is concrete proof of acoc usage in Mf all of what you said is speculative 

There is not much else to say on this matter


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## Vinsmoke31 (May 27, 2022)

Luffy clears


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## Shunsuiju (May 27, 2022)

arv993 said:


> In more than instance he used coa in MF, so there is proof he used that in his MF state.
> 
> There is no proof to that he used any acoc attack in MF. The one time he tried coc he failed but he used coa many times
> 
> ...


We'll agree to disagree.

I just don't think Oda was really holding back with that whole splitting the island with an attack to defeat an Admiral thing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## rext1 (May 27, 2022)

He needs Gear 6 to beat an Admiral. So G5 Luffy gets smashed by Fuji

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Vengarl (May 27, 2022)

Yonko and Admirals aren't as far apart as people want to believe. At MF only Akainu (who went through a gauntlet) had any signs of fatigue or damage and even that was minimal. Marco or Jozu keeping them at bay doesn't equate to them being able to defeat them. WB never had a real chance against 3, even if he was healthy before he engaged them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 3


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## nyamad (May 27, 2022)

Kaido ~ G5 Luffy > All
Throw in every other top tier he clears.


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## TheOmega (May 27, 2022)

Luffy healing after each one? And he retains his growth/gains from the previous match?

He'll clear by the time he gets to Akainu


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## MO (May 27, 2022)

he clears with g5.


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## Corax (May 28, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Lol ok I don’t see that happening. Akainu with one fruit is unlikely to be equal than the guy that negates fruits and has the most destructive fruit as well.


Skill also matters. Remember how easily Yami Teach was dispatched by DeadBeard. Well of course double awakened Gura+Yami Teach might end up even stronger than PrimeBeard even without any particular combat skill or courage. Still lack of skill and courage is a serious thing in combat.


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## OG sama (May 28, 2022)

Pretty obvious to me the only person who may win this is Akainu, the others definitely lose.

How exactly do the others stop him?

Atleast I can say Magma is extremely lethal and could potentially kill Luffy even in G5 but what is Ice, Light, and Gravity going to do to Luffy?

They won’t be able to kill him with that shit and his firepower should be too much for any of them, they can’t kill him or beat him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## arv993 (May 28, 2022)

Corax said:


> Skill also matters. Remember how easily Yami Teach was dispatched by DeadBeard. Well of course double awakened Gura+Yami Teach might end up even stronger than PrimeBeard even without any particular combat skill or courage. Still lack of skill and courage is a serious thing in combat.


Bb was getting cocky then but he is skilled. Shanks gave him props for a reason. He is not close to wb in physical stats but he’s no noob.

And with these powerups. He’s the strongest person bar imu and god luffy at his best.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (May 28, 2022)

@Poll  

Good to know OL didn't completely lose its mind

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Corax (May 29, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Bb was getting cocky then but he is skilled. Shanks gave him props for a reason. He is not close to wb in physical stats but he’s no noob.
> 
> And with these powerups. He’s the strongest person bar imu and god luffy at his best.


I don't think he is skilled. Just remember his fight vs Ace and how much unnecessary damage he took. Also his fail vs Magellan where he allowed to free shot his entire crew.


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## TheOmega (May 29, 2022)

Yonko (The Apex Predators)
Admirals (Strong But Weaker Than The Yonko)

Guess which Tier is on Top

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Lawliet (May 29, 2022)

If he gets healed after every fight, he clears because he's actually going to be stronger after every fight. Not only he clears, he becomes the absolute strongest charatcer in history by a huge margin too.


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 29, 2022)



Reactions: Winner 6


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## TheOmega (May 29, 2022)

Ushiromiya Battler said:


>



Yup and she definitely knows best


Yonko>Admirals

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Inferno Jewls (May 29, 2022)

Luffy doesn't make it past the first round

Reactions: Like 1


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## arv993 (May 29, 2022)

Corax said:


> I don't think he is skilled. Just remember his fight vs Ace and how much unnecessary damage he took. Also his fail vs Magellan where he allowed to free shot his entire crew.


Yes but he had no offensive options then. He now has Gg fruit to protect him up close. And his skill level will increase or luffy will insta blitz him in their final battle.


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## ShWanks (May 29, 2022)

Clears
Sabo is , Akainu's main fight. Luffy will just soften him up & move on to Imu

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

Luffy > every Marine ever


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## Inferno Jewls (May 30, 2022)

Wankou's holding onto dear life for Sabo, hoping he's escaped the hands of celestials or let off by the admirals

even worse, they think Luffy would let Ace 2.0 do his dirty work with a weaker devil fruit


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> Wankou's holding onto dear life for Sabo, hoping he's escaped the hands of celestials or let off by the admirals
> 
> even worse, they think Luffy would let Ace 2.0 do his dirty work with a weaker devil fruit


Cope, Sabo is killing Akainu for Ace


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## Mihawk (May 30, 2022)

Admirals continue to be underrated.

Not surprising considering they don't have the opportunity to show what they've got as none of them are present in the arc, and we haven't seen most of them go all out yet.

You'd have to be on crack if you think that an outdated arc 12 years ago acts as the final jury on their proficiency in a category (Haki) that wasn't even explained yet, especially since they're the World Government's Strongest Military Powers. People use MF WB's heart attacks and poor bill of health to downplay the Admirals since he took out Akainu for a few minutes. However, the fact remains that he paid with his life and up until he was in an "enraged" state, he was on the short end of the stick in his encounters against them.

Yonko > Admirals but the gap is severely exaggerated in the Wano arc. 

On that note, Advanced CoC is also overrated asf. You literally have people claiming or implying that fighters like Yamato and Zoro are as strong or stronger than certain Admirals just because they have this.

Anyways, I think Luffy can probably beat Fujitora now. He is formidable but I see him as the least impressive Admiral so far. Also Kaido > Luffy overall.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

Agreed 100%. People think Haki >>> Fruits when it's actually Haki >= Fruits

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tsukuyomi (May 30, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Cope, Sabo is killing Akainu for Ace


Wanna bet?


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

Code said:


> Wanna bet?


If it's for free absolutely.


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## Mihawk (May 30, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Agreed 100%. People think Haki >>> Fruits when it's actually Haki >= Fruits



They also can't say for certain or dismiss the notion that Admirals could have amazing Haki for all we know. 

Yeah they have DF mastery and logia on their side, but look at Big Mom for example. There's also no mandatory requirement for all Yonko to have greater Haki as a precedent (see Teach). 

That's kind of cheap I know, but the fact is I find it highly unlikely that the Admirals whom are in high positions of leadership, function as the Government's greatest combatants that we know of, and have been around for decades as established top tiers would somehow be anything less than cream of the crop as far as being all around fighters.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> They also can't say for certain or dismiss the notion that Admirals could have amazing Haki for all we know.
> 
> Yeah they have DF mastery and logia on their side, but look at Big Mom for example. There's also no mandatory requirement for all Yonko to have greater Haki as a precedent (see Teach).
> 
> That's kind of cheap I know, but the fact is I find it highly unlikely that the Admirals whom are in high positions of leadership, function as the Government's greatest combatants that we know of, and have been around for decades as established top tiers would somehow be anything less than cream of the crop as far as being all around fighters.


I think they have comparable Haki but their fruits is where they make their money. WG hand supplies the Admirals the best of the best.


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## Tsukuyomi (May 30, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> If it's for free absolutely.


Yeah it is pretty much for free. 
If Akainu claps Sabo or Sabo is not the one to beat him. 
You have to Don an avy of Chadkainu. 
And for 7 days you have to say he is the strongest excluding BB/Luffy/Imu. 

Now if Akainu loses to Sabo. 
I will Don an avy of Ace 2.0.
And for 7 days I will say Chadkainu gets low diffed by all Yonko. 

Fairs?


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

Code said:


> Yeah it is pretty much for free.
> If Akainu claps Sabo or Sabo is not the one to beat him.
> You have to Don an avy of Chadkainu.
> And for 7 days you have to say he is the strongest excluding BB/Luffy/Imu.
> ...


I like Akainu so no problem I once had him equal to Primebeard LMAO

Nah don any avy of Wabo he's my second fav. That's all.

Fair.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Ren. (May 30, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Admirals continue to be underrated.


When Akainu is put next to Prime BB, no they are not.



Mihawk said:


> They also can't say for certain or dismiss the notion that Admirals could have amazing Haki for all we know.


The only thing they mostly lack is COC, the rest they can max out and I would not say a thing, they can add maxxed out OP awakenings to counter COC.




Mihawk said:


> Yeah they have DF mastery and logia on their side, but look at Big Mom for example. There's also no mandatory requirement for all Yonko to have greater Haki as a precedent (see Teach).


So not all might have awakenings? Some like Fuji can have a very OP COO and solid COA.




Mihawk said:


> Yonko > Admirals but the gap is severely exaggerated in the Wano arc.


Yet Akainu is fighting PK Luffy in an extreme diff figh for the fans of the Admirals ... see who is exagerating?



Mihawk said:


> On that note, Advanced CoC is also overrated asf. You literally have people claiming or implying that fighters like Yamato and Zoro are as strong or stronger than certain Admirals just because they have this.


No COC has levels, Yamato and Zoro are piss poor at adv COC and there seams to be another level above where Roger is.



Mihawk said:


> Anyways, I think Luffy can probably beat Fujitora now. He is formidable but I see him as the least impressive Admiral so far. Also Kaido > Luffy overall.


Not according to the Admiral gang, fuji is a top tier but Luffy is not because Luffy defeated kaido with help.

I think he is a solid top tier and for Akainu and the rest to be above they are the ones that need to prove they are stronger and not Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (May 30, 2022)

Ren. said:


> When Akainu is put next to Prime BB, no they are not.


That's a very small minority though.

Look at the amount of people who shit on the Admirals ad nauseum throughout this arc in the last 2 years. We have people who think Kaido can "mid-diff" Fujitora ffs, because Oda drew a spot of ink on his face in Dressrosa.



Ren. said:


> The only thing they mostly lack is COC, the rest they can max out and I would not say a thing, they can add maxxed out OP awakenings to counter COC.


Agreed completely.

Although in their defence, I would not be surprised if they have CoC anyways. Sengoku was a CoC user, and I'm pretty sure we can both agree that Garp will most certainly turn out to be one. Admirals are leaders of men as they have many soldiers under them. They have those qualities in spades.



Ren. said:


> So not all might have awakenings? Some like Fuji can have a very OP COO and solid COA.


Sure. I expect Fujitora to have one of the best CoO ever, like a specialist similar to Katakuri but more well-rounded.


Ren. said:


> Yet Akainu is fighting PK Luffy in an extreme diff figh for the fans of the Admirals ... see who is exagerating?


While I don't agree with the necessity of extreme diff, I don't think it's as insane as people claiming he's gonna "blueno" Akainu or reduce him to some mongrel pup. The amount of people who completely dismiss his standing to the degree of which they refer to him like he's some sort of fodder is asinine.


Ren. said:


> No COC has levels, Yamato and Zoro are piss poor at adv COC and there seams to be another level above where Roger is.


Yeah but in general the arguments involving them are extremely dumb. "CoC is the very strongest ability possessed by the very strongest" so X is stronger than Y who isn't confirmed to have it.

Yet it's completely disproved by the fact that Yamato/Zoro having it.


Ren. said:


> Not according to the Admiral gang, fuji is a top tier but Luffy is not because Luffy defeated kaido with help.


Right.


Ren. said:


> I think he is a solid top tier and for Akainu and the rest to be above they are the ones that need to prove they are stronger and not Luffy.


Agree to disagree then. I think  they're all well established top tiers who simply haven't appeared much in the story and Luffy was catching up to them this whole time.

I also think Current/FA Akainu is most likely stronger than MF Akainu.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 2


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## Ren. (May 30, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Yeah but in general the arguments involving them are extremely dumb. "CoC is the very strongest ability possessed by the very strongest" so X is stronger than Y who isn't confirmed to have it.
> 
> Yet it's completely disproved by the fact that Yamato/Zoro having it.


It is a parallel to Logia Awakening, you have that, you destroy anyone, since PH I heard that crap and I am so over it.

I herd COC is shit but logia awakening  makes you a god for over a decade and you know that.

Especially for Akainu.

So the COC wank is not as much as logia awakenings and the COC wank comes from the Z boys now when I had to tell most people that COC is not just a fodder removal for 10 years so I do not pity any of the Admirals fans as they pushed that awakening for a decade.



Mihawk said:


> I also think Current/FA Akainu is most likely stronger than MF Akainu.


We disagree here, he is too old for that.

And please don't tell me the FV story, that is for BB, Oda had to put the work in that, 2 new DFs.

Now you are telling me that 55 years old are getting stronger, so I guess Kaido next time we see him will get a Zenkai to Roger level?




Mihawk said:


> I think they're all well established top tiers who simply haven't appeared much in the story and Luffy was catching up to them this whole time.


The this is that he was catching up as in past tense or is near every Admirals and equal or stronger than at least one.

Next arc if he fights them because he is 19 and has not reached his peak and is already a top tier and close to the strongest of them aka AKainu, he will win.

And no just no with the Akainu also got stronger ... if so Kaido will be stronger in the final war because reasons.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Casval Rem Aznable (May 30, 2022)

Admirals are Marine's YC1.. Luffy clears in G4

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## YonkoDrippy (May 30, 2022)

Luffy clears.

No admiral would Push Kaido to extreme diff like Luffy did.

 Luffy is Yonko Lvl, he’s comfortably above an Admiral at this point

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Inferno Jewls (May 30, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Cope, Sabo is killing Akainu for Ace


Sabo is going to be a tool just like Ace to give Luffy a boost to extreme diff Sakazuki

whether Sabo dies or not depends on Luffy if he can quickly save sabo before he ends up as a crispy donut, you think fire will beat magma

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mihawk (May 30, 2022)

Ren. said:


> It is a parallel to Logia Awakening, you have that, you destroy anyone, since PH I heard that crap and I am so over it.
> 
> I herd COC is shit but logia awakening  makes you a god for over a decade and you know that.


I'm not sure how people were wanking the Admirals' awakening for 10 years, but that was never relevant to what I was talking about anyways. 

Besides, people have been wanking Shanks' CoC for years before it was even revealed what it was. Same went for Garp's Haki and Roger's will, and you know that. 




Ren. said:


> Especially for Akainu.


Most people just wank the fact that his fruit permanently changed the weather of an island, which you have to admit was very impressive at the time. Also the stamina of fighting an equal for 10 days, impressive. 


Ren. said:


> So the COC wank is not as much as logia awakenings


Disagree. In my time here over the last 10 years, I've hardly seen more wank in favour of logia awakenings than CoC. Yeah there are trolling admiral fanboys but that goes both ways regardless. 


Ren. said:


> and the COC wank comes from the Z boys now


Not really, actually not even remotely close as far as them being the only culprits. You have the Yonko wankers, the Yamato simps, and the Luffy stans as well as Mihawk fanboys like myself who use it as a crutch to wank the shit out of their favs. It's always been "b-b-b-but Haki" for years now and that's not gonna change. 

Zoro legion isn't the only party guilty of this. 


Ren. said:


> We disagree here, he is too old for that.
> 
> And please don't tell me the FV story, that is for BB, Oda had to put the work in that, 2 new DFs.


For the 100000000000th time I never claimed Akainu was going to be FV. 



Ren. said:


> Now you are telling me that 55 years old are getting stronger, so I guess Kaido next time we see him will get a Zenkai to Roger level?


Kaido didn't get promoted though. He also didn't have a 10 day battle with an equal he needed to break through so that he could potentially bloom. He lost the fight against Luffy. 



Ren. said:


> The this is that he was catching up as in past tense or is near every Admirals and equal or stronger than at least one.


Okay. 


Ren. said:


> Next arc if he fights them because he is 19 and has not reached his peak and is already a top tier and close to the strongest of them aka AKainu, he will win.


Yeah that's next arc..


Ren. said:


> And no just no with the Akainu also got stronger ... if so Kaido will be stronger in the final war because reasons.


Unless Kaido has no relevance while Akainu has more.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## YellowCosmos (May 30, 2022)

I'm only here to ask why some people _want _Sabo to fight Akainu, so much so that they evaluate Akainu based on this desire of theirs?

I don't understand this desire, because Sabo seems to me like one of Oda's worst written characters. The smaller the role he plays, the happier I'll be.


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## Chip Skylark (May 30, 2022)

Think it’s the other way around. Most people that evaluate Akainu highly do so because they expect him to play the role of Luffy’s final obstacle. Most people that believe Sabo will be Akainu’s opponent never thought that highly of Akainu to begin with.

Sabo fighting Akainu just makes sense. As Ace’s brother he should naturally have a role in avenging his death; especially considering circumstances didn’t allow him to be present for the paramount war. Luffy, as a pirate, is obviously is going to take down Teach. Sabo, as a revolutionary, should then take down Akainu.

Luffy doesn’t need both. From what I’ve seen most people that disagree either, like you, just don’t like Sabo or just want Akainu to be more powerful than what he’s been set up to be.


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## YellowCosmos (May 30, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> From what I’ve seen most people that disagree either, like you, just don’t like Sabo or just want Akainu to be more powerful than what he’s been set up to be.



I don't "want" Akainu to be more powerful than what he's set up to be and I'm fairly indifferent about how powerful he ends up being. I've always been of the opinion that _IF_ Akainu is a final villain or future villain, then he's bound to be at a certain level of power, and while I think it's a real possibility that he's either one of these things, it's still just a possibility in my view. If we were to talk about probability, I would say that Blackbeard currently is much more likely than Akainu to be either of these things.

It is true, on the other hand, that I don't like Sabo, but I wouldn't say that my problem with an Akainu vs Sabo match-up is there just because I don't like Sabo. There's an opportunity cost here in that Luffy vs Akainu makes a lot of narrative sense (they've met, Luffy has beef with Akainu, it's been repeatedly stated that the PK needs to defeat both the Yonkou and the Admirals). Sabo, on the other hand, was absent for grossly contrived reasons - the amnesia cliche - and the Revolutionaries have hitherto failed to do anything significant or successful, which suggests that without Luffy and the changes he will bring about, they won't succeed.



Chip Skylark said:


> Think it’s the other way around.



It's both ways. Prejudice cuts across all sides. But I'm not talking about prejudice. You change the "want" with "expect" and the "desire" with "expectation" to make the question sound less inflammatory.

I just fail to understand why Sabo fighting Akainu being more likely than Luffy fighting Akainu makes sense.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chip Skylark (May 30, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> It is true, on the other hand, that I don't like Sabo, but I wouldn't say that my problem with an Akainu vs Sabo match-up is there just because I don't like Sabo. There's an opportunity cost here in that Luffy vs Akainu makes a lot of narrative sense (they've met, Luffy has beef with Akainu, it's been repeatedly stated that the PK needs to defeat both the Yonkou and the Admirals). Sabo, on the other hand, was absent for grossly contrived reasons - the amnesia cliche - and the Revolutionaries have hitherto failed to do anything significant or successful, which suggests that without Luffy and the changes he will bring about, they won't succeed.


Sabo has all the same reasons to beef with Akainu as Luffy does, and as we’ve seen his absence actually fuels his regret.

It was never stated that Luffy needs to beat both the Yonko & Admirals, it was just stating that he needs to surpass them; which can be done without fighting all of them. Luffy only ever stated his desire to defeat all of the Yonko.

On the other hand, as a revolutionary, Sabo is the one that actually directly opposes the WG & Navy.

The revolutionaries haven’t accomplished anything because they’ve been preparing. Not because they lack the potential to accomplish anything noteworthy. It’s not as if they’ve tried and failed. They’ve just yet to try.


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## YellowCosmos (May 30, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Sabo has all the same reasons to beef with Akainu as Luffy does, and as we’ve seen his absence actually fuels his regret.



Yes, but his beef matters much less than Luffy's because Luffy happens to the main character whose ambitions also imply that he ought to surpass the Admirals. The fact that they have an identical grudge doesn't mean Luffy's grudge isn't much more important. I think saying "Luffy has beef with Akainu" is a good objection to "Sabo has beef with Akainu" implying Sabo should fight Akainu, whereas the reverse is not true.



Chip Skylark said:


> t was never stated that Luffy needs to beat both the Yonko & Admirals, it was just stating that he needs to surpass them; which can be done without fighting all of them. Luffy only ever stated his desire to defeat all of the Yonko.



I know, but as should be evident, the best way to "surpass" them is to beat them (since they're just the sort of people who are very likely to stand in the way of his objectives; it's their job).



Chip Skylark said:


> On the other hand, as a revolutionary, Sabo is the one that actually directly opposes the WG & Navy.



I think it was specifically explained in chapter 905 that the "true foe" isn't the world government, but the Celestial Dragons who control it. The Revolutionaries oppose the WG & the Navy to the extent the latter two do what the Celestial Dragons want, and we know that of late there are factions within both that are upsetting the Celestial Dragons.

I don't think it's a given that Akainu will always remain loyal to the Celestial Dragons. It depends on what Oda makes of his personal justice and how Akainu will end up reacting to the knowledge that they've been dealing with pirates.



Chip Skylark said:


> The revolutionaries haven’t accomplished anything because they’ve been preparing



I understand they've been preparing, but they've also had a number of setbacks lately, including their HQ being discovered and some of the leaders apparently failing their mission in the Reverie. When I said they didn't accomplish anything significant, I was suggesting that giving what they've actually tried to do (which is not nothing), we would have seen some results.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I'm only here to ask why some people _want _Sabo to fight Akainu, so much so that they evaluate Akainu based on this desire of theirs?
> 
> I don't understand this desire, because Sabo seems to me like one of Oda's worst written characters. The smaller the role he plays, the happier I'll be.


That's not the point. It's clear that's why he was introduced after Ace was killed . Why would Oda bring him back just for a repeat when he literally says he's gonna protect Luffy no matter what?

Sabo is definitely killing Akainu as Luffy doesn't even kill on panel while Sabo is a ruthless murderer.


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## arv993 (May 30, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> That's not the point. It's clear that's why he was introduced after Ace was killed . Why would Oda bring him back just for a repeat when he literally says he's gonna protect Luffy no matter what?
> 
> Sabo is definitely killing Akainu as Luffy doesn't even kill on panel while Sabo is a ruthless murderer.


Did sabo kill countless people or something?


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Did sabo kill countless people or something?


He was shown on panel crushing a guy's skull to a slow and painful death before an Admiral interrupting him. Luffy has no feat as bloodlusted as that.


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## Mihawk (May 30, 2022)

It’s funny how the people who always argue against Akainu project this notion that we all “just want Akainu to be final villain for some reason” when most of us have never even claimed this.

Doesn’t make their arguments any more credible by projecting an actual straw man and assuming someone else’s mindset.

Been clear since Imu appeared that he/she would be final villain. Doesn’t take away from Akainu’s credibility as a villain for Luffy though, narratively.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (May 30, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> It’s funny how the people who always argue against Akainu project this notion that we all “just want Akainu to be final villain for some reason” when most of us have never even claimed this.
> 
> Doesn’t make their arguments any more credible by projecting an actual straw man and assuming someone else’s mindset.
> 
> Been clear since Imu appeared that he/she would be final villain. *Doesn’t take away from Akainu’s credibility as a villain for Luffy though, narratively.*


Sabo's introduction does that after obtaining Mera fruit.


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## trance (May 31, 2022)

akainu's not the FV but he's also not losing to sabo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Corax (May 31, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> I think they have comparable Haki but their fruits is where they make their money. WG hand supplies the Admirals the best of the best.


Some admirals became famous even without DF. For example Fujitora and Green Bull. They obviously have really good haki and skills as aside from haki and DF no fighter can become worldwide famous (and DF were given to them after military draft). Two and half years are enough to master DF of course,but I wouldn't be surprised if Green Bull relies more on haki than DF.


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## ShWanks (May 31, 2022)

Corax said:


> Some admirals became famous even without DF. For example Fujitora and Green Bull. They obviously have really good haki and skills as aside from haki and DF no fighter can become worldwide famous (and DF were given to them after military draft). Two and half years are enough to master DF of course,but I wouldn't be surprised if Green Bull relies more on haki than DF.


It's never stated the WG gave them their fruits tho


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## Corax (May 31, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> It's never stated the WG gave them their fruits tho


Was it?Fujitora asked Green Bull why he was fasting for 3 years or something. I think it is DF related. Though may be 3 years was just a random number but seems suspicious.


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## Seraphoenix (May 31, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I'm only here to ask why some people _want _Sabo to fight Akainu, so much so that they evaluate Akainu based on this desire of theirs?
> 
> I don't understand this desire, because Sabo seems to me like one of Oda's worst written characters. The smaller the role he plays, the happier I'll be.


Besides wanting a competitive match, I think Sabo vs Akainu is just more interesting in terms of fighting style. Luffy and Akainu are pretty similar in that they both focus heavily on punches. So some giant fist fest would be really boring to me. 

Sabo being at a disadvantage in terms of his fruit, and overcoming that to beat Akainu is also way more interesting.  Also as much as I dislike him, I don't want to see cartoony Akainu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (May 31, 2022)

People seriously believe one of the main saki brothers won't get a MAJOR end game fight? Lmao Kid & Law got a YONKO fight. Sabo is definitely getting Akainu.


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## YellowCosmos (May 31, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> People seriously believe one of the main saki brothers won't get a MAJOR end game fight? Lmao Kid & Law got a YONKO fight. Sabo is definitely getting Akainu.



Sabo getting a major fight doesn't require him to fight Akainu. I find the former plausible, the latter implausible.


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## Corax (May 31, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> People seriously believe one of the main saki brothers won't get a MAJOR end game fight? Lmao Kid & Law got a YONKO fight. Sabo is definitely getting Akainu.


He might fight Rob Lucci for all we know. Oda even supervised several OP films (like Gold etc.). So he is more or less ok with this idea. Dragon might fight Akainu or might not though.


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## Chip Skylark (May 31, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> It’s funny how the people who always argue against Akainu project this notion that we all “just want Akainu to be final villain for some reason” when most of us have never even claimed this.
> 
> Doesn’t make their arguments any more credible by projecting an actual straw man and assuming someone else’s mindset.
> 
> Been clear since Imu appeared that he/she would be final villain. Doesn’t take away from Akainu’s credibility as a villain for Luffy though, narratively.


I’ve argued against people claiming that Akainu will be the FV far too much for people to start acting like that was never argument.

There’s absolutely no way you haven’t seen it a lot yourself.


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## ShWanks (May 31, 2022)

Corax said:


> He might fight Rob Lucci for all we know. Oda even supervised several OP films (like Gold etc.). So he is more or less ok with this idea. Dragon might fight Akainu or might not though.


Dragon is definitely fighting I'm, Kong, or 5 Gorosei. Sabo is fighting Akainu & I don't see why everyone's so bent out of shape about it. We know Akainu has to die on panel to avenger Ace & we all know it has to be at one of Ace's brothers' hands. Luffy is highly unlikely because he NEVER goes for a kill on panel in fights even when standing over his opponents. Sabo is merciless against the WG, the dude was slowing killing a VA by crushing his skull with his hand.


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## YellowCosmos (May 31, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> We know Akainu has to die on panel to avenger Ace



No, he doesn't. Akainu was doing his job in a _war_. He didn't "murder" Ace and both Sabo/Luffy should understand that. On top of that, it's Ace who _turned back to fight Akainu when he could have just ran away with the others. _There's absolutely no need for Oda to focus on a revenge fight here, especially when Akainu has such a warped sense of justice that they and others can clash and disagree with.


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## ShWanks (May 31, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> No, he doesn't. Akainu was doing his job in a _war_. He didn't "murder" Ace and both Sabo/Luffy should understand that. On top of that, it's Ace who _turned back to fight Akainu when he could have just ran away with the others. _There's absolutely no need for Oda to focus on a revenge fight here, especially when Akainu has such a warped sense of justice that they and others can clash and disagree with.


You think Sabo gives af about Akainu doing "his job"? Sabo was gonna murder CELESTIAL DRAGONS for just torturing Kuma not even killing him & he isn't anywhere near as important to Sabo as Ace. Sabo won't rest until he kills Akainu lol Ace's death was so tramatizing he gained his memory back after over a decade. Burgess just mocked Ace & almost got burned to death so how much more for the man that killed him? He's definitely not gonna let Akainu live if they fight. 

You're using morals when Sabo is a hot headed young blooded man that's very passionate. He doesn't care about right or wrong when he gets angry.


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## YellowCosmos (May 31, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> You're using morals when Sabo is a hot headed young blooded man that's very passionate. He doesn't care about right or wrong when he gets angry.



And how likely it is do you think that Oda is have someone who doesn't care about what's right or wrong deal with or finish off someone whose sense of misguided justice is contaminating the marines? If Sabo fights Akainu, and if you're right about Sabo not caring about right and wrong when he's angry (which I disagree with), then it's more likely Oda develops Sabo and makes him a more mature character than have him kill Akainu just because he's mad...


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## ShWanks (May 31, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> And how likely it is do you think that Oda is have someone who doesn't care about what's right or wrong deal with or finish off someone whose sense of misguided justice is contaminating the marines? If Sabo fights Akainu, and if you're right about Sabo not caring about right and wrong when he's angry (which I disagree with), then it's more likely Oda develops Sabo and makes him a more mature character than have him kill Akainu just because he's mad...


You're missing the MAIN point. Sabo isn't killing Akainu JUST because he's mad. He's killing him to avenge his brother's death just like he was going to avenge his comrade against CELESTIAL DRAGONS who are more important than Akainu. If he's willing to kill them on a whim he'd definitely MURDER Akainu at first chance for what he did to Ace. You guys are overlooking how dark Sabo really is. There's been many hints that he's actually ruthless.


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## Mihawk (May 31, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> I’ve argued against people claiming that Akainu will be the FV far too much for people to start acting like that was never argument.
> 
> There’s absolutely no way you haven’t seen it a lot yourself.



Yeah but they're idiots. Not really worth your time.


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 1, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## trance (Jun 1, 2022)

ZKA


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## YellowCosmos (Jun 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> You guys are overlooking how dark Sabo really is.



Where was it said that Sabo is willing to kill a Celestial Dragon on a whim?


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## Sherlōck (Jun 1, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I'm only here to ask why some people _want _Sabo to fight Akainu, so much so that they evaluate Akainu based on this desire of theirs?
> 
> I don't understand this desire, because Sabo seems to me like one of Oda's worst written characters. The smaller the role he plays, the happier I'll be.


It's because of power level.

If Sabo fights and defeats Akainu then their power level head Canon remains unscathed. 

On the other hand if Luffy fights Akainu & it’s extreme difficulty fight then Yonko fans will be on suicide watch. All the forums in the internet will explode simultaneously.


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## ShWanks (Jun 1, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> Where was it said that Sabo is willing to kill a Celestial Dragon on a whim?


When he nearly threw the Holy Land mission after seeing them enslave Kuma. Not "on a whim" literally but basically he doesn't care about right or wrong when it comes to comrades. How much more his brothers?


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## YellowCosmos (Jun 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> When he nearly threw the Holy Land mission after seeing them enslave Kuma. Not "on a whim" literally but basically he doesn't care about right or wrong when it comes to comrades. How much more his brothers?



I've seen the pages you have in mind, but I didn't anything that suggested Sabo was feeling murderous there. He was angry about what happened to Kuma, but why are you taking to mean he would have killed a Celestial Dragon?


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## ShWanks (Jun 1, 2022)

From the fact that when happy he tried to crush a navy vice admirals skull to death killing him slowly while showing a crazed expression. Something tells me he hates Celestial Dragons far more than Marines overall.


YellowCosmos said:


> I've seen the pages you have in mind, but I didn't anything that suggested Sabo was feeling murderous there. He was angry about what happened to Kuma, but why are you taking to mean he would have killed a Celestial Dragon?


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## YellowCosmos (Jun 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> From the fact that when happy he tried to crush a navy vice admirals skull to death killing him slowly while showing a crazed expression.



I don't buy he attempted to kill Bastille. He obviously KO'd him and moved on to Fujitora. You can argue Fujitora interrupted him and prevented him from killing Bastille, but you'd still be lacking a reason to think he specifically intended to kill Bastille as opposed to knocking him out.

I would also like to point out that he fully intended to let Burgess go, despite knowing his role in capturing Ace, until Burgess started mocking Ace, and even then he didn't finish him off.


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## ShWanks (Jun 1, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I don't buy he attempted to kill Bastille. He obviously KO'd him and moved on to Fujitora. You can argue Fujitora interrupted him and prevented him from killing Bastille, but you'd still be lacking a reason to think he specifically intended to kill Bastille.
> 
> I would also like to point out that he fully intended to let Burgess go, despite knowing his role in capturing Ace, until Burgess started mocking Ace, and even then he didn't finish him off.


No he stopped only cuz Fujitora intervened. He was fully into only completely popping Bastille's skull. That's my point. He didn't need a reason, he's more ruthless than people think so how much more when he actually has a reason to kill the man who killed his brother?

He actually didn't know Burgess played a role until he told him while mocking Ace. BB Pirates catching Ace wasn't in the papers only Ace's execution was. Sabo could've thought Burgess was dead after his finishing blow hence Burgess somehow being able to follow him back to Rev hideout without him knowing.


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Jun 1, 2022)

Luffy trample every round unless you are a marine wanker who lives in an alternate reality, who reads another manga and who thinks that those 4 who have more antifeats than feats and don't even have CoC are stronger than Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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